# Help - I rescued a Patterdale!!



## Pattie (9 November 2017)

Hi all new here and hoping for advice. We rescued a Patterdale 7 weeks ago. I am embarrassed to admit, that I did not know it was a terrier. We wanted to take the dog on holidays in our campervan and told the rescue centre this. They said he would be great. Now I dont think so. As you can imagine he is manifesting all the Patterdale behaviours.
	High prey drive. Hes escaped through our fence which we hadnt realised had a tiny gap in it. (He ended up in a foxhole and came out with superficial scratches which were bleeding.)
	Obviously, we cant let him off the lead.
	He barks and lunges at other dogs on the walks. 
	He pulls on the lead when he has the scent of something. He is so strong! I constantly have back ache.  We are thinking of using a head collar to stop the pulling.
	He defecated nearly 4 weeks in and hid it under his blanket and started eating it when he saw me. He had been out 2 minutes before this. He had been house trained up until then.
	He urinated at the time and only a couple of days ago urinated over my laundry basket.
	He has snapped and drawn blood on the OH, and may have snapped at me but I gave him the benefit of the doubt as we had been paying with his ball.

I took him to the vet to eliminate any health issues. She didnt even examine, she said he was as fit as a lop. He is walked 40 mins twice a day and we take him with us on a 3 mile run 3 to 4 times a week. The vet said that it isnt enough exercise for such a dog. I also play with him and train him every day. The vet thinks he was probably used as a worker dog as he was into everything and that he is probably not getting enough stimulation.

I took him to a trainer; she worked hands on with him for about 7 mins of the one hour Id paid for. Some of the time was discussing his diet, but she said he will be hard to train when he is distracted. I can get him to do a lot of things in the house and yard. I have some recall when on his long lead, unless he is distracted with a scent or other dogs. The trainer said he would be hard to train and it would take a long time. The rescue centre have said they would take him back and look after him as it does sound like he has been a worker. I would hate to take him back.

Does anyone have any tried and tested methods of teaching recall, stopping lunging and barking at other dogs and pulling on a lead? I have been researching myself, but all the videos show dogs that are quite placid and not too distracted. What mental games can I pay with him to stimulate him? Im at my wits end with this dog. He can be quite loving, but is also very detached at times. 

I am worried that Im stopping a 2 year old in the prime of his life and trying to curb into being a very domesticated dog when he wants to be off in the fields. Sorry for the long post, but any help would be gratefully received.


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## CorvusCorax (9 November 2017)

Ok. First of all, pour yourself a gin and give yourself a pat on the back for getting this far.

Patterdales as a generalisation seem not to have evolved so far from their original purpose which I don't think is a bad thing, but wouldn't expect all of them to fit seamlessly into the average pet home when their primary drive a lot of the time is to hunt/chase/kill.

He's only two...thats still young. Have you thought about something that might harness his natural instincts, like terrier racing/lure coursing? Or even something like man trailing? Canicross or Bikejor? A lot of reactive dogs calm way down once they are given a job to do and something to focus on.

I mentioned Craig Ogilvie on another post who is an excellent trainer in terms of using toys and tug as motivation. My dog is a different breed but when he sees another dog he now comes to me for a ball/game as that is the link I have created. 

And while the smaller terriers can't compete at IPO (the 1m hurdle and dumbbell are an issue lol) they can give it a jolly good go...

https://youtu.be/Of0tm5Vlbpc

https://youtu.be/KIBrQS0vCiM


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## Pattie (9 November 2017)

Thanks for your reply, I shall look into all of that.


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## twiggy2 (9 November 2017)

2 nd Craig ogilvie for redirecting drive and focusing on play.
There are no easy was to train a dog that has learnt that following instinct gives the best rewards, that does not mean that it cannot be done. It depends on the individual dog and it's drive levels? 
You may have to accept that some of the dogs behaviours have to be managed as they are not correctable- you just need to learn the best way to manage them.
There is a lot that a trainer needs to find out about you, the  dog and any issues on a first consult and discussing food is a massive thing, so I would not expect much training to get done in that session. Did you work the dog or the trainer?


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## pippixox (9 November 2017)

how long have you had him?
I can see these issues are not easy, and will take time and work. But I can't help but feel you are panicking and you need to calm down and give things time.

I got a GSD aged 2 who was basically free-ranged in a barn for his first 2 years. He was not socialized with other dogs and had never been on a lead! It took time, but he was the nicest dog, loved everyone. Never fully got over other dog issues- but had some dog friends and we learned to manage it. Still took him to mountain bike events and on camping holidays. In the first month I had so much anxiety and wanted to 'fix' everything. But once I decided to just take things slowly and work at things little by little it was much better.

we lost him in January to cancer, after three amazing years. 

we then got a collie in February who had never been walked in 2 years. Nuts and neurotic. But charity knew she was good with kids (we have a baby) and that she would love our active lifestyle. the first week was hard- she was very nervous, howled if we even left her to go upstairs, slipped her collar a few times. But in 9 months she has made so much progress and we would not be without her.

dogs take work. but you can do it and it will be worth it. 

you are panicking, but think- all these issues could be the same with any dog of puppy. take baby steps and stay positive.

terriers do have a chase drive. He will need to stay on a long line when out.
even in the house practice recall and treat him and praise for him coming to you. 
He will need to see the benefit of coming to you- as other things may seem way more fun! my GSD and collie work a bit for treats or toys,but actually collie is a breed that loves to please so even praise works. but I think terrier can be a bit less likely to accept just praise- they need stimulation.

i used to scatter food all over the garden for my GSD to 'hunt' 

also I was recommended (and it worked to an extent) to teach the command 'find it'and drop food for them to find to distract them. So when I saw other dogs coming I would say 'find it; and scatter some treats, to get him into food and scent mode instead of defense mode. As when I tried toys to distract- he would get more worked up.

some dogs do not like being on lead around other dogs as they feel threatened- very normal. with time, practice walking near other dogs but at a big distance to stop reaction, then gradually get closer. if you know the dogs, allow a loser lead to help him relax.


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## Alec Swan (9 November 2017)

He's a Patterdale,  he has a mind of his own which he's highly unlikely to relinquish and it wouldn't surprise me to hear that in 15 years time,  you're still trying to get him to any semblance of obedient.  Others will suggest all sorts of wonderful ways to change his character,  but it simply isn't being realistic.  Considering his breed,  and his age,  what he 'is' is set in stone,  they're a dog which is purpose bred and short of a brain transplant,  you will be wondering just what you've taken on if you're unable to accept him as he is.  I wish that I could be more positive,  sorry.

Alec.


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## Pattie (9 November 2017)

pippixox said:



			how long have you had him?
I can see these issues are not easy, and will take time and work. But I can't help but feel you are panicking and you need to calm down and give things time.

I got a GSD aged 2 who was basically free-ranged in a barn for his first 2 years. He was not socialized with other dogs and had never been on a lead! It took time, but he was the nicest dog, loved everyone. Never fully got over other dog issues- but had some dog friends and we learned to manage it. Still took him to mountain bike events and on camping holidays. In the first month I had so much anxiety and wanted to 'fix' everything. But once I decided to just take things slowly and work at things little by little it was much better.

we lost him in January to cancer, after three amazing years. 

we then got a collie in February who had never been walked in 2 years. Nuts and neurotic. But charity knew she was good with kids (we have a baby) and that she would love our active lifestyle. the first week was hard- she was very nervous, howled if we even left her to go upstairs, slipped her collar a few times. But in 9 months she has made so much progress and we would not be without her.

dogs take work. but you can do it and it will be worth it. 

you are panicking, but think- all these issues could be the same with any dog of puppy. take baby steps and stay positive.

terriers do have a chase drive. He will need to stay on a long line when out.
even in the house practice recall and treat him and praise for him coming to you. 
He will need to see the benefit of coming to you- as other things may seem way more fun! my GSD and collie work a bit for treats or toys,but actually collie is a breed that loves to please so even praise works. but I think terrier can be a bit less likely to accept just praise- they need stimulation.

i used to scatter food all over the garden for my GSD to 'hunt' 

also I was recommended (and it worked to an extent) to teach the command 'find it'and drop food for them to find to distract them. So when I saw other dogs coming I would say 'find it; and scatter some treats, to get him into food and scent mode instead of defense mode. As when I tried toys to distract- he would get more worked up.

some dogs do not like being on lead around other dogs as they feel threatened- very normal. with time, practice walking near other dogs but at a big distance to stop reaction, then gradually get closer. if you know the dogs, allow a loser lead to help him relax.
		
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Thanks for your reply. Sorry to hear about your dog but you've done an amazing job with both of them. I will try anything, but everything I have tried on the walk means nothing when he sees a dog or gets a scent. He even pulls and looks longingly when we pass fields. He reacts differently to dogs, sometimes he only barks and pulls until they are out of sight sometimes he will keep barking when they turn a corner and are out of sight. I took a squeaky toy on the walk for a while and that helped to distract a little bit, but not when he was fully engaged with something. He's a very energetic little guy.


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## Pattie (9 November 2017)

Alec Swan said:



			He's a Patterdale,  he has a mind of his own which he's highly unlikely to relinquish and it wouldn't surprise me to hear that in 15 years time,  you're still trying to get him to any semblance of obedient.  Others will suggest all sorts of wonderful ways to change his character,  but it simply isn't being realistic.  Considering his breed,  and his age,  what he 'is' is set in stone,  they're a dog which is purpose bred and short of a brain transplant,  you will be wondering just what you've taken on if you're unable to accept him as he is.  I wish that I could be more positive,  sorry.

Alec.
		
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Sadly, I think you're right 5 professionals have said the same. They all feel he has been a working dog. He had a gap in his ear when we adopted him which means that this is possible. He certainly knew where to go and what to do when he got out!


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## CorvusCorax (9 November 2017)

Or you might get involved in a sport or activity that you love and meet friends for life....managing a dog rather than completely changing his personality/instincts (unlikely lol) and redirecting his drives doesn't mean you can't have a lot of fun with him. He's just not going to be a conventional family pet.

Here's a few tips about interactive play with your dog...its not just standing about 
http://nickbenger.com/5-things-i-learned-from-craig-ogilvie/


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## Pattie (9 November 2017)

I've been out playing with him already. Good point you make about just redirecting his energies though. I have to admit, I feel totally out of my depth with him, I wouldn't have taken him had I known he was a terrier, the rescue just wrote Patterdale on his form. Now I've got the little chap, I feel obliged to give him a good life. Re-homing has been suggested, but I feel like I'm letting him down whatever I decide to do, well we decide to do, the OH is involved too.


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## ester (9 November 2017)

you won't change him but you can manage him and probably have some fun in the meantime. 

Something I picked up from your posts though, don't feel bad for him that he isn't able to disappear into the wild blue yonder and go ratting all day. You aren't stopping a 2yo in the prime of his life or curbing him, just redirecting him to something he may well enjoy just as much


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## Pattie (9 November 2017)

ester said:



			you won't change him but you can manage him and probably have some fun in the meantime. 

Something I picked up from your posts though, don't feel bad for him that he isn't able to disappear into the wild blue yonder and go ratting all day. You aren't stopping a 2yo in the prime of his life or curbing him, just redirecting him to something he may well enjoy just as much 

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Do you think so, even though he may have already been a working dog with his prey drive firmly entrenched?


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## Alec Swan (9 November 2017)

Pattie said:



			&#8230;&#8230;..

&#8226;	He has snapped and drawn blood on the OH, and may have snapped at me but I gave him the benefit of the doubt as we had been paying with his ball.

&#8230;&#8230;.. .
		
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I'm sorry that I didn't pick up on this point in my last post.  Generally,  the lunatic aspect to work-bred terriers is directed at anyone and anything but the owner.  Mostly Patterdales are lovely dogs with humans.

The problem with dogs such as yours though is often that if we engage in 'play' then we are lowering ourselves,  so to speak and depending on his upbringing,  play could be seen by him as a challenge.  I would put all thoughts of 'play' to one side,  or at least until you manage to assert a degree of authority and even then,  I wouldn't do it.

Over the years I've had several dogs which would have bitten me but learned how to prevent the situation arising and again,  back to playing with the dog,  I wouldn't be doing it with yours!  If he's bitten your OH,  can you explain the situation and how it arose?

Alec.


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## ester (9 November 2017)

Yes, and many more experienced people than me are always saying that with rescues you shouldn't carry their past with them too much. 

CC really knows her stuff and I suspect if you were to find a bunch of people who were used to very high drive dogs doing the sorts of activities she mentioned you wouldn't feel so isolated and would find them very helpful.


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## Pattie (9 November 2017)

It wasn't during in play that he bit him, I think I can give the dog the benefit of the doubt as it was in the first few days, as I said we've only had him for 7 weeks, 7 today in fact. Once was when he brought him back after he'd run off and the other time the OH went to get him off his chair, we don't like dogs on the furniture, I think he scared him. I used to just slide him off. He's more ore less stopped getting on the furniture, but he was in a defiant mood on Tuesday and I was scared to slide him off when he jumped on, he had a look about him. He likes playing and though he mouths, he never sinks his teeth in. I stop playing with him when he mouths though as I don't want him to think it's all right. We haven't eally bonded with the dog, we just provide him with food and shelter and take him for walks LOL.


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## CorvusCorax (9 November 2017)

I'd keep him off the furniture at all times and use a light house line (nothing with a loop) attached to a collar or harness to remove him without getting too close to the business end until the behaviour is solid. Make his own bed or crate the most positive and rewarding place to be.


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## Pattie (9 November 2017)

CorvusCorax said:



			I'd keep him off the furniture at all times and use a light house line (nothing with a loop) attached to a collar or harness to remove him without getting too close to the business end until the behaviour is solid. Make his own bed or crate the most positive and rewarding place to be.
		
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The line  has been suggested before. For the most part, he's good in the house, the worst thing he does on a daily basis is bark at everything, me tapping the keys on the laptop for instance. I just dread taking him for walks, I cut the walk short this morning as he was just pulling and pulling and pulling. I dread seeing other dogs when out.


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## Leo Walker (9 November 2017)

Pattie said:



			The line  has been suggested before. For the most part, he's good in the house, the worst thing he does on a daily basis is bark at everything, me tapping the keys on the laptop for instance. I just dread taking him for walks, I cut the walk short this morning as he was just pulling and pulling and pulling. I dread seeing other dogs when out.
		
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Send him back. This isnt the right dog for you. You've been given advice on how to manage him but not followed it through, and this dog with need completely consistent handling and training. Why make everyone miserable? Theres also a very strong chance that these behaviours will escalate until someone is properly bitten and then it will be curtains for him.


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## YasandCrystal (9 November 2017)

Alec Swan said:



			He's a Patterdale,  he has a mind of his own which he's highly unlikely to relinquish and it wouldn't surprise me to hear that in 15 years time,  you're still trying to get him to any semblance of obedient.  Others will suggest all sorts of wonderful ways to change his character,  but it simply isn't being realistic.  Considering his breed,  and his age,  what he 'is' is set in stone,  they're a dog which is purpose bred and short of a brain transplant,  you will be wondering just what you've taken on if you're unable to accept him as he is.  I wish that I could be more positive,  sorry.

Alec.
		
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I have to concur with this too. I have a Patterdale I took on as a rehome at 9 months old. He is 8 years old now. I cannot let him off lead in a public place, he goes crazy when he sees another dog even from the car window and is aggressive on lead with dogs other than his home pack. He is also fear aggressive so will bite anyone scared of him so I crate him with any nervous guests. He also has OCD and will pace and chew his own pads periodically. His latest obsession is our springer spaniel puppies ears, he drools over them so the poor pup has a constantly wet head. He gets lots of exercise, he is out with the rest of our dogs (6 others) at the yard for several hours a day and is a 'happy' but weird dog. He is very loving and popular with the other dogs and the family.  He did agility for a short while, that was a challenge and a worry for me with so many loose dogs around in close proximity.
All that said I love him and wouldn't change him for the world, but would I take on another Patterdale.................no for sure.  He's the most difficult breed of dog I have owned.


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## Pattie (9 November 2017)

YasandCrystal said:



			I have to concur with this too. I have a Patterdale I took on as a rehome at 9 months old. He is 8 years old now. I cannot let him off lead in a public place, he goes crazy when he sees another dog even from the car window and is aggressive on lead with dogs other than his home pack. He is also fear aggressive so will bite anyone scared of him so I crate him with any nervous guests. He also has OCD and will pace and chew his own pads periodically. His latest obsession is our springer spaniel puppies ears, he drools over them so the poor pup has a constantly wet head. He gets lots of exercise, he is out with the rest of our dogs (6 others) at the yard for several hours a day and is a 'happy' but weird dog. He is very loving and popular with the other dogs and the family.  He did agility for a short while, that was a challenge and a worry for me with so many loose dogs around in close proximity.
All that said I love him and wouldn't change him for the world, but would I take on another Patterdale.................no for sure.  He's the most difficult breed of dog I have owned.
		
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Gulp!


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## Pattie (9 November 2017)

Whoa, that I haven't followed advice is not true! We are taking all advice into consideration and operating the ones that we think are best for him. I have also been advised not to put him on a line as this  increases his anxiety.


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## Alec Swan (9 November 2017)

Pattie said:



			It wasn't during in play that he bit him, &#8230;&#8230;.. .
		
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I didn't explain myself clearly,  my apologies.  When I said that with play,  and with many dogs,  we 'lower ourselves' &#8212; what perhaps I should have said is that we 'elevate the dog's status'.  If he came from a home where he was previously controlled,  it would be highly unlikely that he really understands 'play'.  When we play with dogs,  especially those who don't understand the concept,  all that we're achieving is an unravelling of any previous discipline.  Some dogs barely need discipline,  I understand that,  but there are those that do,  and i'd strongly suggest that yours is such a candidate.  

The same 'elevation' can be achieved by allowing some dogs on furniture,  though I see that thankfully you're limiting such access.  Much as I dislike the caging of dogs within a domestic residence,  I suspect that in the case of your dog,  it may well be of help.

Alec.


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## Pattie (9 November 2017)

Alec Swan said:



			I didn't explain myself clearly,  my apologies.  When I said that with play,  and with many dogs,  we 'lower ourselves' &#8212; what perhaps I should have said is that we 'elevate the dog's status'.  If he came from a home where he was previously controlled,  it would be highly unlikely that he really understands 'play'.  When we play with dogs,  especially those who don't understand the concept,  all that we're achieving is an unravelling of any previous discipline.  Some dogs barely need discipline,  I understand that,  but there are those that do,  and i'd strongly suggest that yours is such a candidate.  

The same 'elevation' can be achieved by allowing some dogs on furniture,  though I see that thankfully you're limiting such access.  Much as I dislike the caging of dogs within a domestic residence,  I suspect that in the case of your dog,  it may well be of help.

Alec.
		
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Ah, I see. Actually, I like to play with him as it helps to bond with him, this is also proving to be difficult with him. We bought him a crate and he goes straight in it, he must be used to one. We put him in a crate when some friends came round as we didn't know how he'd react, after about 10 mins we let him out and he was going from one to the other rolling on the floor for a belly rub. He will bark at everyone and everything, especially people knocking at the door, but once when in his crate as we knew a service man was coming, he didn't bark at all. Can't leave him in his crate all day long though.


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## CorvusCorax (9 November 2017)

Taking him back is all very well but people are not queuing up for this sort of dog. The OP sounds like someone willing to take advice and put the work in. There's also no other pets or kids mentioned so it will be easier to control or manage his environment. So probably a better prospect than many other potential homes. But if you don't like him, fair enough.

I'm also not talking about playing for the sake of playing. The drive will come out somewhere. Better to channel it and you be the instigator of all things than let him be an unhappy, confused loony tune with no outlet at all.


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## honetpot (9 November 2017)

Lots of good advice in here from people who know this type of dog.
  I have had rescues, and they are hard work, and some of the big rehomers are rubbish, so it not your fault. I would contact the breed rescue and try an find him a breed specific home, because he is not really the sort of dog that is going to be a family pet without an awful lot of work and management.
  I had a dog that used to roam, lovely dog but over the years I had her we had more arguments and sleepless nights, when she would not come home. One slip by the children and the little s*** would be off to hide. I once saw her squeeze through the smallest hole in the wire netting in the garden, if I had not seen it myself I wouldn't have believed it.
   You will probably only manage your dogs behaviour, it's doubtful you will never change it.


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## honetpot (9 November 2017)

Lots of good advice in here from people who know this type of dog.
  I have had rescues, and they are hard work, and some of the big rehomers are rubbish, so it not your fault. I would contact the breed rescue and try an find him a breed specific home, because he is not really the sort of dog that is going to be a family pet without an awful lot of work and management.
  I had a dog that used to roam, lovely dog but over the years I had her we had more arguments and sleepless nights, when she would not come home. One slip by the children and the little s*** would be off to hide. I once saw her squeeze through the smallest hole in the wire netting in the garden, if I had not seen it myself I wouldn't have believed it.
   You will probably only manage your dogs behaviour, it's doubtful you will never change it.


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## Pattie (9 November 2017)

CorvusCorax said:



			Taking him back is all very well but people are not queuing up for this sort of dog. The OP sounds like someone willing to take advice and put the work in. There's also no other pets or kids mentioned so it will be easier to control or manage his environment. So probably a better prospect than many other potential homes. But if you don't like him, fair enough.

I'm also not talking about playing for the sake of playing. The drive will come out somewhere. Better to channel it and you be the instigator of all things than let him be an unhappy, confused loony tune with no outlet at all.
		
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I do like him, he's just a handful and I'm trying to find the best way to deal with him. Not sure what your last paragraph means, I should play with him, but on my terms or not at all? If I took him back to the rescue he could be there for a long time. He spent 6 months there, then went to a family for 3 months and they took him back. I want what is best for the little chap. If we were to give him up, it would be to a new home, one which is terrier savvy and knows exactly what they are getting. We're not at that stage, but he is going to be hard work, I do know that.


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## Pattie (9 November 2017)

honetpot said:



			Lots of good advice in here from people who know this type of dog.
  I have had rescues, and they are hard work, and some of the big rehomers are rubbish, so it not your fault. I would contact the breed rescue and try an find him a breed specific home, because he is not really the sort of dog that is going to be a family pet without an awful lot of work and management.
  I had a dog that used to roam, lovely dog but over the years I had her we had more arguments and sleepless nights, when she would not come home. One slip by the children and the little s*** would be off to hide. I once saw her squeeze through the smallest hole in the wire netting in the garden, if I had not seen it myself I wouldn't have believed it.
   You will probably only manage your dogs behaviour, it's doubtful you will never change it.
		
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I know what you mean about the hole! We have a half acre garden that has 6 foot fencing all around it, we thought he was safe, but he got out and we could see where he'd got out of. I take him there, but on his lead at the moment as we are making it terrier proof. He got the scent of something and was pulling to get under the fence in a different place, as I watched him, his front and hind legs went out at right angles almost and he flattened himself nearly flat on the ground. At least I know which holes he can get out of after seeing that.


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## CorvusCorax (9 November 2017)

Pattie said:



			I do like him, he's just a handful and I'm trying to find the best way to deal with him. Not sure what your last paragraph means, I should play with him, but on my terms or not at all? If I took him back to the rescue he could be there for a long time. He spent 6 months there, then went to a family for 3 months and they took him back. I want what is best for the little chap. If we were to give him up, it would be to a new home, one which is terrier savvy and knows exactly what they are getting. We're not at that stage, but he is going to be hard work, I do know that.
		
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Yep that's what I meant. In fact everything is on your terms or not at all.


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## Alec Swan (9 November 2017)

Pattie said:



			Ah, I see. Actually, I like to play with him as it helps to bond with him, this is also proving to be difficult with him. .. .
		
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It seems that what ever you do I appear to disagree with you,  but it's either a case of speak-up or shut-up!  I hope that you understand that I'm in your corner though! :redface3::wink3: Here goes!:

As you're finding 'bonding' to be difficult it may be because you're sending out mixed messages.  Playing and discipline when they're simultaneous (or near enough) may work with some dogs,  but it seems not with yours.  It's all new to him (or was 7 weeks ago) and by his lack of bowel control,  by your descriptions of his conduct,  which are well described,  I'm again,  and for the last time going to suggest that rather than trying to be his friend,  that you organise the 'pack' hierarchy and when he's calm and well mannered,  so you reward that with a simple acceptance of him.  Perhaps try it for a coupe of days,  and see how things go!

Good Luck,  whatever you decide.

Alec.


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## Pattie (9 November 2017)

Alec Swan said:



			It seems that what ever you do I appear to disagree with you,  but it's either a case of speak-up or shut-up!  I hope that you understand that I'm in your corner though! :redface3::wink3: Here goes!:

As you're finding 'bonding' to be difficult it may be because you're sending out mixed messages.  Playing and discipline when they're simultaneous (or near enough) may work with some dogs,  but it seems not with yours.  It's all new to him (or was 7 weeks ago) and by his lack of bowel control,  by your descriptions of his conduct,  which are well described,  I'm again,  and for the last time going to suggest that rather than trying to be his friend,  that you organise the 'pack' hierarchy and when he's calm and well mannered,  so you reward that with a simple acceptance of him.  Perhaps try it for a coupe of days,  and see how things go!

Good Luck,  whatever you decide.

Alec.
		
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No, I have genuinely come on here for some advice for my sake, but also for the little man.  I play with him also to stimulate him mentally as the vet said he needed a lot of this, but what you're saying does make sense. I can't transfer his play onto the walk as he gets distracted with scents and dogs so I'm not building up to such distraction with a toy, he loves treats, but these also don't work on a walk. What would simple acceptance of him look like? He's bouncing his ball at me now. He also follows me everywhere, I don't know if he's being cute, anxious or just mad!


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## Clodagh (9 November 2017)

Just take him back, sorry! Patterdales do not make good pets, when my OH was hunt terrierman he was given endless ones that people couldn't cope with. Even the MFHA recommend not using them to dig foxes as they are 'too hard' and will engage with the fox, which is a welfare issue (for both). Lovely dogs and very efficient atd what they have been bred for generations, very succeessfully, to do. Being a pet was nowhere on that wish list.


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## Alec Swan (9 November 2017)

CorvusCorax said:



			&#8230;&#8230;.. . In fact everything is on your terms or not at all.
		
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^^^^ This and the way to the dog's heart is through consistency and not mixing our messages up.



Pattie said:



			&#8230;&#8230;.. . What would simple acceptance of him look like? He's bouncing his ball at me now. He also follows me everywhere, I don't know if he's being cute, anxious or just mad!
		
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Acceptance,  I find,  is best expressed by every now and then,  calling him over and when he's either in sit or standing,  placing one hand under his chin and whilst gently stroking his face,  tell him that he's a 'Good Boy'.    

If you're going to achieve the status as suggested by CC above,  then treats,  toys and playtime simply won't achieve that &#8230;. at least,  not with HIM!  The fact that he follows you about and wants to be with you is a huge plus.  Now if you deny him what he wants by popping him in his cage every now and then,  perhaps when he comes out,  he'll be a bit more amenable.  Finally! &#8230;. if you watch the best trainers of dogs,  you'll notice that they keep speech to a minimum,  and the reason for that is when the dog is spoken too,  it listens.

Your dog is and will always be a bit of a handful,  but currently he sounds rather confused and not particularly happy.

Right,  that's it,  I'm off out to dinner in a while.

Alec.


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## honetpot (9 November 2017)

I understand your confusion, but if was choice between advice from Alec and one from a vet, I would choose Alec every time.

  As this dog as had a few homes its learnt how to manage people, the rescues I have had have usually had one inappropriate home and basic dog management is all that was needed to solve any problems. Forget about bonding, being his friend etc. At the moment he is getting what he wants, its  a simple transaction you do X and you get Y, if you do not you get ignored.

   The bowel problem could be food. In kennels they pick up things and get fed cheap food. I would go an look at some no cereal,low fat foods, try the smallest packs, and not always the most expensive. Our rescue lurcher would do a lake( I am not kidding) of poo every morning, after about five trials and probably routine we settled on one that stopped the river.


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## Zero00000 (9 November 2017)

No real advise sorry, but my sister in laws family have a Patterdale and he is the most obedient little things ever, he doesn't need a lead to walk, comes to call, isn't prey driven, so it can be done,
Hope your little chap turns a corner


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## Moobli (9 November 2017)

Pattie said:



			Sadly, I think you're right 5 professionals have said the same. They all feel he has been a working dog. He had a gap in his ear when we adopted him which means that this is possible. He certainly knew where to go and what to do when he got out!
		
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Could you bear to part with him?  If so, try to find him a working home.  Good working patterdales are often highly prized by gamekeepers.


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## twiggy2 (9 November 2017)

WorkingGSD said:



			Could you bear to part with him?  If so, try to find him a working home.  Good working patterdales are often highly prized by gamekeepers.
		
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I don't know anyone with working dogs that wants one with no recall, not a lot of point letting a terrier off to work if it ******* off!


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## Moobli (9 November 2017)

twiggy2 said:



			I don't know anyone with working dogs that wants one with no recall, not a lot of point letting a terrier off to work if it ******* off!
		
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It is young enough to be taught recall, especially in an experienced environment where it is also getting to work.


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## Pattie (9 November 2017)

WorkingGSD said:



			Could you bear to part with him?  If so, try to find him a working home.  Good working patterdales are often highly prized by gamekeepers.
		
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I want the best for the dog. He's lying next to me, snoozing and relaxed. I coudn't bear for him to go somewhere and not be happy. I think he would be a great worker dog I'm sure he has been in the past. Do worker dogs live outside?

He's has learned a lot, he used to be a right nut job at the start of a walk now he just walks out fairly calmly. He used to rush at the door now I can make him sit and stay for a while. He sits and stay until his dinner is put down for him. Baby steps I know, but they are there.


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## Amymay (9 November 2017)

Clodagh said:



			Just take him back, sorry! Patterdales do not make good pets, when my OH was hunt terrierman he was given endless ones that people couldn't cope with. Even the MFHA recommend not using them to dig foxes as they are 'too hard' and will engage with the fox, which is a welfare issue (for both). Lovely dogs and very efficient atd what they have been bred for generations, very succeessfully, to do. Being a pet was nowhere on that wish list.
		
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Yep, my thoughts too.


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## Pattie (9 November 2017)

Clodagh said:



			Just take him back, sorry! Patterdales do not make good pets, when my OH was hunt terrierman he was given endless ones that people couldn't cope with. Even the MFHA recommend not using them to dig foxes as they are 'too hard' and will engage with the fox, which is a welfare issue (for both). Lovely dogs and very efficient atd what they have been bred for generations, very succeessfully, to do. Being a pet was nowhere on that wish list.
		
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What becomes of him then?


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## Amymay (9 November 2017)

Pattie said:



			What becomes of him then?
		
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The rescue will hopefully place him in a more suitable home.


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## Pattie (9 November 2017)

amymay said:



			The rescue will hopefully place him in a more suitable home.
		
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As somebody said, there aren't many who want a dog like mine. The rescue is not a terrier rescue, it's all sorts.  I want him to be happy.


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## pippixox (9 November 2017)

Pattie said:



			I want the best for the dog. He's lying next to me, snoozing and relaxed. I coudn't bear for him to go somewhere and not be happy. I think he would be a great worker dog I'm sure he has been in the past. Do worker dogs live outside?

He's has learned a lot, he used to be a right nut job at the start of a walk now he just walks out fairly calmly. He used to rush at the door now I can make him sit and stay for a while. He sits and stay until his dinner is put down for him. Baby steps I know, but they are there.
		
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just wanted to say- look- this is progress in less than 2 months, with a dog who (regardless of breed) had had multiple changes in 2 years. causing him to be unsettled.

In terms of 'bonding'- personally I think dogs, especially working types, need rules, and then they will bond with you, but not in a cuddly teddybear way. my collie was a stress head! but she now has a pretty consistent routine and is thriving.

all her 'bad' behaviors have been when she is unsure and stressed.


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## Alec Swan (9 November 2017)

Pattie said:



			&#8230;&#8230;.. .  I want him to be happy.
		
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You CAN do it,  and it may be that you're rethinking your current strategy.  Thats positive.  If you're to have any success &#8212; and it will only ever be partial &#8212; you will need to understand the dog,  take charge and have a major re-think.  

Through your posts there are odd chinks of light and they're such that I suspect that you may slowly be understanding that the needs of the dog may not be as you initially imagined.  There have been many positive and constructive suggestions from others, suggestions that make sense too.  We can read all the books that we want,  we can listen to the doggy behaviourists and we can employ trainers or vets to give advice,  but the bottom line is that we have to do it for ourselves,  and I truly believe that you can.

You will only ever have a fruitcake,  but with a bit of thought,  one which you can manage.  You CAN do it,  don't send him back to God knows who,  just yet. 

Alec.


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## SusieT (9 November 2017)

I'd take him to agility. On the pulling - when he pull s you either turn and walk sharply the other way and then go back in your original direction when he's not pulling that way, or stop and only continue when he come sback to  you( may need to be quite enthusiastic about encouraging him to come back towards you initially until he gets the idea and reward him)
Also look up clicker training - handy for teaching tricks
A halti may not be a bad idea.


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## RunToEarth (9 November 2017)

WorkingGSD said:



			Could you bear to part with him?  If so, try to find him a working home.  Good working patterdales are often highly prized by gamekeepers.
		
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I would hazard a guess that if this dog has ended up in rescue, it's not proved to be a good working dog. A patterdale who isn't a good worker, and from this post presumably not a good pet, is destined for a bit of a miserable life unless he falls on a home willing to take him as he is. 

You're a better person than me OP, I think I would have sent him back, but if you persevere I hope you win some of the battles.


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## Clodagh (10 November 2017)

Your latter posts sound a lot more like you want to keep the dog, whereas your earlier ones sounded as though you weren't so sure. If you decide to keep him, and are prepared for a dog you cannot let off lead and that you need a garden like fort Knox - and to be fair it sounds as though you are happy with all that - then have fun.
We had a patt called 'Storm' who had been raised in hunt kennels. He was a lovely dog, very handsome and affectionate on his terms, but you DID not touch him if he was not asking you to, you never grabbed at him in any way and when we had children we had to put weldmesh all over his kennel so they couldn't get too close. I loved him dearly, he was a pure worker with no fluffy bits, he would put his paws on your leg if you could stroke him. 
Ours all got 2 off lead walks a day, over known territory with no holes, and got fed on return to kennels to motivate them. Ours were not at all dog aggreesive though, none of them were, as a breed they were raised with the hounds and a terrier with an attitude problem would not have lasted very long, so good temperament was sort of self perpetuating.


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## Clodagh (10 November 2017)

SusieT said:



			A halti may not be a bad idea.
		
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I loathe haltis, teaching heel is not rocket science and putting one of those things on a dogs head is one sure way to get them to resist the lead. (IMO).


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## Goldenstar (10 November 2017)

I would try to find him a working home where he will live with other dogs and be a worker not a pet .
There is no way ( and I have lived with with dogs all my life ) that I would live with a dog who I had to be careful of when telling to get off the chair .
I like Patterdales my friend had working Patterdales for years but they would not be my choice for a house pet .


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## Pattie (10 November 2017)

SusieT said:



			I'd take him to agility. On the pulling - when he pull s you either turn and walk sharply the other way and then go back in your original direction when he's not pulling that way, or stop and only continue when he come sback to  you( may need to be quite enthusiastic about encouraging him to come back towards you initially until he gets the idea and reward him)
Also look up clicker training - handy for teaching tricks
A halti may not be a bad idea.
		
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I've been turning and stopping ever since we got him. He's very strong willed and he actually pulls more the more I try to stop him. That's why I think a halti collar would help. I do clicker training with him, he will do most anything in the house or the small yard, once I take him out, he's not interested. I act like an idiot, he still won't come. On walks when he has recall, I can actually make him stay for 4 steps before giving him a treat, when he's on the scent, nothing can be done.


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## Pattie (10 November 2017)

Goldenstar said:



			I would try to find him a working home where he will live with other dogs and be a worker not a pet .
There is no way ( and I have lived with with dogs all my life ) that I would live with a dog who I had to be careful of when telling to get off the chair .
I like Patterdales my friend had working Patterdales for years but they would not be my choice for a house pet .
		
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Had we known the nature of the breed we wouldn't have taken him. I feel so stupid for not checking the breed out more. We actually  went to look at another do which wasn't suitable, ha.


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## Pattie (10 November 2017)

Clodagh said:



			I loathe haltis, teaching heel is not rocket science and putting one of those things on a dogs head is one sure way to get them to resist the lead. (IMO).
		
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As I say, I can teach this dog lots until he has the scent of a furry animal or a dog, then everything goes out of the window.


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## Pattie (10 November 2017)

Clodagh said:



			Your latter posts sound a lot more like you want to keep the dog, whereas your earlier ones sounded as though you weren't so sure. If you decide to keep him, and are prepared for a dog you cannot let off lead and that you need a garden like fort Knox - and to be fair it sounds as though you are happy with all that - then have fun.
We had a patt called 'Storm' who had been raised in hunt kennels. He was a lovely dog, very handsome and affectionate on his terms, but you DID not touch him if he was not asking you to, you never grabbed at him in any way and when we had children we had to put weldmesh all over his kennel so they couldn't get too close. I loved him dearly, he was a pure worker with no fluffy bits, he would put his paws on your leg if you could stroke him. 
Ours all got 2 off lead walks a day, over known territory with no holes, and got fed on return to kennels to motivate them. Ours were not at all dog aggreesive though, none of them were, as a breed they were raised with the hounds and a terrier with an attitude problem would not have lasted very long, so good temperament was sort of self perpetuating.
		
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I am conflicted by the dog. I want to ensure, as far as is possible, that he will be cared for. The rescue centre will take him back and look after him for as long as it takes, but he won't have his home comforts that we're giving him. On the other hand I'm not sure if I can cope with the difficulties the dog presents for the next however many years. He's had his walk and his breakfast and all curled up relaxed in his bed and I could cry for him.


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## Pattie (10 November 2017)

RunToEarth said:



			I would hazard a guess that if this dog has ended up in rescue, it's not proved to be a good working dog. A patterdale who isn't a good worker, and from this post presumably not a good pet, is destined for a bit of a miserable life unless he falls on a home willing to take him as he is. 

You're a better person than me OP, I think I would have sent him back, but if you persevere I hope you win some of the battles.
		
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He did spend some time with a family before they took him back, prior to that he was in the rescue for about 6 months. He be brought in as a stray, so he must have got out of somewhere and been picked up.


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## Pattie (10 November 2017)

Alec Swan said:



			You CAN do it,  and it may be that you're rethinking your current strategy.  Thats positive.  If you're to have any success &#8212; and it will only ever be partial &#8212; you will need to understand the dog,  take charge and have a major re-think.  

Through your posts there are odd chinks of light and they're such that I suspect that you may slowly be understanding that the needs of the dog may not be as you initially imagined.  There have been many positive and constructive suggestions from others, suggestions that make sense too.  We can read all the books that we want,  we can listen to the doggy behaviourists and we can employ trainers or vets to give advice,  but the bottom line is that we have to do it for ourselves,  and I truly believe that you can.

You will only ever have a fruitcake,  but with a bit of thought,  one which you can manage.  You CAN do it,  don't send him back to God knows who,  just yet. 

Alec.
		
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We knew from day 3 what we were dealing with LOL! We didn't want to take him back without giving him a good try, the more we've read, the more dire the situation seemed to be in terms of training prospects.


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## Pattie (10 November 2017)

honetpot said:



			I understand your confusion, but if was choice between advice from Alec and one from a vet, I would choose Alec every time.

  As this dog as had a few homes its learnt how to manage people, the rescues I have had have usually had one inappropriate home and basic dog management is all that was needed to solve any problems. Forget about bonding, being his friend etc. At the moment he is getting what he wants, its  a simple transaction you do X and you get Y, if you do not you get ignored.

   The bowel problem could be food. In kennels they pick up things and get fed cheap food. I would go an look at some no cereal,low fat foods, try the smallest packs, and not always the most expensive. Our rescue lurcher would do a lake( I am not kidding) of poo every morning, after about five trials and probably routine we settled on one that stopped the river.
		
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We seem to have sorted his bowel problem now, his poos are not so many on the walk and are more solid. He hasn't defecated in the house for two weeks. He still has urinated this week though.


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## Pattie (10 November 2017)

Many thanks for all of your replies, I'm taking everything on board and trying to work out the best way forward for this little chap.


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## Moobli (10 November 2017)

Pattie said:



			He did spend some time with a family before they took him back, prior to that he was in the rescue for about 6 months. He be brought in as a stray, so he must have got out of somewhere and been picked up.
		
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He could well have come from a gamekeeper or farmer then?  Whereabouts in the UK are you?


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## Pattie (10 November 2017)

WorkingGSD said:



			He could well have come from a gamekeeper or farmer then?  Whereabouts in the UK are you?
		
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North


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## Moobli (10 November 2017)

Pattie said:



			North
		
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I am just wondering if there are any working homes local to you that might be interested in him and you could vet them to see they are good enough?

If you want to keep him then you have had some excellent advice on how to channel his instincts and on how to deal with his fiesty nature so I wish you luck and hope he turns into the manageable, happy dog you hope for.


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## Pattie (10 November 2017)

WorkingGSD said:



			I am just wondering if there are any working homes local to you that might be interested in him and you could vet them to see they are good enough?

If you want to keep him then you have had some excellent advice on how to channel his instincts and on how to deal with his fiesty nature so I wish you luck and hope he turns into the manageable, happy dog you hope for.
		
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I can't explain how I feel, we took a dog on for life, you hear of people adopting a dog then taking it back for this or that, not very good reasons. I don't want to just give up on a dog, but he is extreme. We had a dog for nearly 12 years which we had found think and wan on the road and loved her until she died last year at the grand old age of 15 ish. If I thought our dog would get a good home, I would drive him somewhere.


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## Amymay (10 November 2017)

Pattie said:



			If I thought our dog would get a good home, I would drive him somewhere.
		
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Unfortunately you can't do that without the agreement of the rescue.


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## Dusty M Yeti (10 November 2017)

Some excellent advice on here already so I won't add much, but I have to say I agree with Alec - patterdales (in general) need masters not friends! I have a pattie x jrt who I got at 2yo from a friend whose circumstances changed, both parents were 'workers', she is also very driven. Luckily she had been well bought up with strict boundaries enforced, I had to learn quickly that I needed to step up and be master, she is a wonderful little dog but having had greys and lurchers before who I could shower with love, she is a whole different ball game.

Some of the info on this site is bluntly put but you may find it useful : http://www.patterdaleterrierrescue.co.uk/


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## Pattie (10 November 2017)

amymay said:



			Unfortunately you can't do that without the agreement of the rescue.
		
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I'm in communication and they would be happy for me to do this. They would also take him back.


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## Clodagh (10 November 2017)

Most working homes are, tbh, not that cuddly. Would I ever give a dog to a working (digging) home? No. Our dogs had a good life, if totally different to our pet dogs, but a lot are not well treated, IMO. I would take him back to the rescue or keep him and deal I think, rather than trying to find somewhere yourself.


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## Pattie (10 November 2017)

Clodagh said:



			Most working homes are, tbh, not that cuddly. Would I ever give a dog to a working (digging) home? No. Our dogs had a good life, if totally different to our pet dogs, but a lot are not well treated, IMO. I would take him back to the rescue or keep him and deal I think, rather than trying to find somewhere yourself.
		
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The rescue centre said they would keep our dog in mind for a Patterdale savvy owner. I am worried that he won't get a good life in one way as a worker dog. I am so torn. We just carry on as though we are keeping him, training him, taking on board what others have said etc. Hoping that he will turn his behaviour around. He has only been with us for a short time. We went out this afternoon and he was so pleased to seem me when I cam e home and he always greets the OH like a long lost friend when he comes home from work. He has done from day 1.


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## tda (10 November 2017)

Do you know anyone who shoots?  The terrier men that drive round after our hunt always have a variety of  dogs, no they don't get cuddles, but they do work, ratting etc


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## Pattie (10 November 2017)

tda said:



			Do you know anyone who shoots?  The terrier men that drive round after our hunt always have a variety of  dogs, no they don't get cuddles, but they do work, ratting etc
		
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I am in a semi rural community so there are possible  options available.


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## Pattie (10 November 2017)

Bad news and good news. Bad news, OH accidentally let go of the dog when running with him, dog was fixated by some bloke and ran towards him. Then he ran back up the river bank and started off in the direction that they'd been running. OH just stopped and called him. Dog stopped looked round and ran back to him! What's going on?


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## Alec Swan (10 November 2017)

It seems to me Pattie that you have an enquiring mind,  you're open to reason and that you don't want to simply send the dog back,  from whence he came.  I'm with you.  I wonder if this may help you reach a decision;

Mostly,  dogs fit into pigeon holes,  some are simple and straight forward,  and some aren't.  So that's split the groupings in to two.  The easily dealt with can be syphoned off either by their  inherent and easy going nature,  or the rational behind their breeding,  though we often get throwbacks.  We need to concentrate on the difficult dogs,  those which were either born with a mindset or were 'made' that way by mismanagement,  and I suspect that your young man possibly bit his mother on the way out! 

It may well be the case that you will never feel free enough to allow your dog liberties &#8230;. no getting up on the furniture,  no toys and no 'games'.  he needs to learn his place within your family.  By ignoring this point you will be sending him the dreaded 'mixed messages' and that will achieve no more than confusion.  That isn't to mean that life needs to be regimented,  far from it,  it means that you may need to concentrate on not what he needs so much,  as what he doesn't need.

Training aids?  Your voice and that alone.  If you prevent your dog from expressing himself with a halti then that's all that you'll achieve.  'Preventing' a dog from doing what we don't wish for is achievable in two ways;  firstly by physical restraint and secondly by the regime which we apply to his everyday existence.  When he's out for a walk,  then a simple lead is all that's needed and if you can accept that you have a manic and whirling dervish on your hands,  then probably a lead with three of four swivels so the lead doesn't end up as a knot as he spins about!  Dogs hate haltis and so does every trainer who I know and would respect.

Before we attempt heal walking in an acceptable manner,  we need to get the in-hand work in place first,  and that starts in the home,  then it progresses to the garden and then beyond.  Attempting any form of obedience work whilst he's distracted by other dogs which he swears he wants to kill will only serve to teach him that you can be ignored.

It will take time,  months perhaps,  but once you've achieved an acceptable level of dominance NOT by force but by management,  you may well have a dog which brings you pleasure.  All of the above should be ignored if you honestly believe that you have anything but a fruitcake on your hands!  

I still believe that you can achieve a marked improvement,  though only with consistency and by attempting to understand HIS thought processes.

Alec.


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## Alec Swan (10 November 2017)

Pattie said:



			Bad news and good news. Bad news, OH accidentally let go of the dog when running with him, dog was fixated by some bloke and ran towards him. Then he ran back up the river bank and started off in the direction that they'd been running. OH just stopped and called him. Dog stopped looked round and ran back to him! What's going on?
		
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What's going on?  Leave the training to your OH! 

Alec.


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## Pattie (10 November 2017)

Alec Swan said:



			What's going on?  Leave the training to your OH! 

Alec.
		
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I'm with the dog all day and I've been teaching him to come whilst on his extendable lead. He just used the command I'd taught him, so I will take some credit, but it's fantastic that he came back, it could have been a terrible Friday. When he got out before he'd onl known us 3 days so maybe a bonding is occurring!
That said, it might have been a different story had he seen a dog or been on the scent of something. Grateful baby steps.


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## Alec Swan (10 November 2017)

Pattie said:



			I'm with the dog all day and I've been teaching him to come whilst on his extendable lead. &#8230;&#8230;.. .
		
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How about teaching him to come to you,  not with an extendable lead or treats,  but because he wants to?  

And how do we achieve that?

Alec.


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## Pattie (10 November 2017)

Alec Swan said:



			How about teaching him to come to you,  not with an extendable lead or treats,  but because he wants to?  

And how do we achieve that?

Alec.
		
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Can't really trust him off lead. We are in the process of sorting our fenced off land so that he can't get underneath, then I can let him off lead and do some training with him.


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## Alec Swan (10 November 2017)

Where,  off lead?  In the house?

Alec.


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## Pattie (10 November 2017)

Alec Swan said:



			Where,  off lead?  In the house?

Alec.
		
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I can get him to do anything in the house...


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## Alec Swan (10 November 2017)

Pattie said:



			I can get him to do anything in the house...
		
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OK so the next step is the garden.  You probably have many months before you when you can trust him and even then,  outside of his everyday environ he will be a bit of a challenge.  

He came back to your OH when called &#8230;. what does that tell you?

Alec.


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## Pattie (10 November 2017)

Alec Swan said:



			OK so the next step is the garden.  You probably have many months before you can trust him and even then,  outside of his everyday environ he will be a bit of a challenge.  

He came back to your OH when called &#8230;. what does that tell you?

Alec.
		
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I trained him good! seriously we are both so pleased that he came back. The garden is tough because of the distractions, I've tried and he is the same as on walks, I just keep going with it.


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## Moobli (11 November 2017)

Great posts from Alec.  I hope you manage to find a way to make the relationship work for both of you.


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## Pattie (11 November 2017)

I managed to get him to stay for 6 steps a record, maybe he could have done more.Baby steps though, want him to succeed as much as possible.


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## Pattie (11 November 2017)

WorkingGSD said:



			Great posts from Alec.  I hope you manage to find a way to make the relationship work for both of you.
		
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I hope so, as much as it's hard for us, me in particular as I'm with him all day doing most of his training, but I want the dog to have a good future too.


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## splashgirl45 (11 November 2017)

dont have any advice but wanted to say i am impressed that you are trying with this dog and not sending him back to the rescue..hopefully you can find a way to manage him that works for all of you , so lots of good luck and fingers crossed you turn the corner..


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## Karran (11 November 2017)

No real advice but you sound like you're really making an effort and I admire that!

We have two recently retired patterdales in our flyball team. I really would consider something like that or agility or canicross to give him something to focus on and feel like he is 'working

A good team will be able to help work with Chase issues should you be worried he will chase the other dogs- they'll have seen it all before don't worry!!


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## Pattie (11 November 2017)

Karran said:



			No real advice but you sound like you're really making an effort and I admire that!

We have two recently retired patterdales in our flyball team. I really would consider something like that or agility or canicross to give him something to focus on and feel like he is 'working

A good team will be able to help work with Chase issues should you be worried he will chase the other dogs- they'll have seen it all before don't worry!!
		
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Thanks for your comments. What exactly is flyball? I've looked it up and still don't know what it entails.


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## Pattie (11 November 2017)

splashgirl45 said:



			dont have any advice but wanted to say i am impressed that you are trying with this dog and not sending him back to the rescue..hopefully you can find a way to manage him that works for all of you , so lots of good luck and fingers crossed you turn the corner..
		
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Thanks for your post. It's a big responsibility adopting a dog, I don't want to send him back unless it is impossible. I must admit, we both feel a bit of encouragement after he turned and came back yesterday and he was good on his afternoon walk. Fingers crossed.


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## melbiswas (12 November 2017)

I can empathise with a lot of what you have been going through Pattie.

We adopted a GSP in January who had been a stray (probably failed hunting dog) in Cyprus. It became clear immediately that he had an immense prey drive and zero recall.
We walked him in a harness on a long line, but this felt like it was incredibly frustrating for him as well as painful for me. Recall training was so, so slow, and for a long, depressing time I was convinced walks would be on the long line forever. 
It has taken 9 months but we can finally have off-lead walks in areas where he is unlikely to get totally distracted by scents. We are still at risk of losing him in local woods as we have lots of deer. Most of the time his recall is great.
He is a very sweet, loving and devoted dog indoors and this has kept us going. 

You have put a lot of effort in. I hope it is early days and your hard work pays off in time.


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## ponyparty (13 November 2017)

Well done for persevering! Terriers - particularly those of working lines - can be difficult dogs, but so rewarding. They are so intelligent! Mine outsmarts me on a regular basis.... I always said, after a relative had a terrier when I was a child, that I would never have one haha.... Never say never! 
I have been toying with buying this book: "Terrier-centric Dog Training: From Tenacious to Tremendous" by Dawn Antoniak-Mitchell. 
Looks interesting from the sneak preview on Amazon and you may find it useful...

ETA: eugh, didn't realise it was American. Might not be as good as I thought. Perhaps worth a punt though?!


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## gallopingby (13 November 2017)

Have you looked on www.patterdaleterrierrescue.co.uk  they may be able to help you. I volunteer for a gundog rescue and we are able to provide support/links if required for the breeds we help. I do think its unfair that the rescue your dog came from weren't more thorough in their assessment of the dog and home it was going to. I certainly wouldn't be returning to the centre responsible for rehoming but a specialist breed rescue may be able to help, it seems you are making progress but there will be good and bad days.


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## Pattie (13 November 2017)

melbiswas said:



			I can empathise with a lot of what you have been going through Pattie.

We adopted a GSP in January who had been a stray (probably failed hunting dog) in Cyprus. It became clear immediately that he had an immense prey drive and zero recall.
We walked him in a harness on a long line, but this felt like it was incredibly frustrating for him as well as painful for me. Recall training was so, so slow, and for a long, depressing time I was convinced walks would be on the long line forever. 
It has taken 9 months but we can finally have off-lead walks in areas where he is unlikely to get totally distracted by scents. We are still at risk of losing him in local woods as we have lots of deer. Most of the time his recall is great.
He is a very sweet, loving and devoted dog indoors and this has kept us going. 

You have put a lot of effort in. I hope it is early days and your hard work pays off in time.
		
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Thanks for your post, it does encourage me! I suppose the biggest worry is that when he got out, he went straight down a fox hole and was beaten up a bit in terms of scratches, cuts and blood. This kind of dog is beyond my scope. He is lovely in the house - most of the time -and he is making progress. He seems to be bonding with us a bit which would make it harder to re-home him now. I don't think, at this moment in time, that I would ever voluntarily let him off his lead. I'm so pleased that everything is working out with you and your dog.


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## Pattie (13 November 2017)

ponyparty said:



			Well done for persevering! Terriers - particularly those of working lines - can be difficult dogs, but so rewarding. They are so intelligent! Mine outsmarts me on a regular basis.... I always said, after a relative had a terrier when I was a child, that I would never have one haha.... Never say never! 
I have been toying with buying this book: "Terrier-centric Dog Training: From Tenacious to Tremendous" by Dawn Antoniak-Mitchell. 
Looks interesting from the sneak preview on Amazon and you may find it useful...

ETA: eugh, didn't realise it was American. Might not be as good as I thought. Perhaps worth a punt though?!
		
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Thanks for your post, we keep plodding on with the little chap. I have been looking at other terrier books, so I'll check that one out too. I wonder if the library has any so that I can see which one is best for me before I buy one. Is your terrier a working dog?


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## Pattie (13 November 2017)

gallopingby said:



			Have you looked on www.patterdaleterrierrescue.co.uk  they may be able to help you. I volunteer for a gundog rescue and we are able to provide support/links if required for the breeds we help. I do think its unfair that the rescue your dog came from weren't more thorough in their assessment of the dog and home it was going to. I certainly wouldn't be returning to the centre responsible for rehoming but a specialist breed rescue may be able to help, it seems you are making progress but there will be good and bad days.
		
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Thanks for your post. The rescue centre tried their best, as he had been with a family for a few weeks I suppose they didn't think he could be too bad. I agree with you though, if we send him back to the original centre he could end up in a similar situation and he needs to be settled. I have looked at that site before, but I don't really see a support section. I looked at another site and they said if you're thinking of re-homing, contact us we may be able to help. I did so and they gave me the number for an 'expert' I called and arranged a time to call her back as she was busy just then and I only get voice mail when I call!!!

I got him to stay for 8 steps today another record. Progress is being made. He is a sulker though, he was on the chair and my husband just told him to get down, which he did, then then went to he bed and wouldn't look at either of us. He sometimes just stand tail down and head down and doesn't move for ten minutes, for no reason, I wonder if he is bi-polar!!


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## CorvusCorax (13 November 2017)

That's pretty normal dog body language. 
Personally speaking I wouldn't set him up to fail and would remove the conflict by putting obstacles on the furniture when not in use. Clothes drivers, upturned washing baskets etc. 
These will make the human furniture less attractive to him if he can't get comfortable.

With a dog like this he would never be on the furniture...some dogs, particularly those without whom a proper relationship is yet established, don't know the different between sometimes allowed and sometimes not. Sometimes when we feel like a cuddle but not allowed whenever we feel like it, isn't fair to dogs like this.

Also I wouldn't confuse the commands for off and down. He was probably already lying DOWN on the furniture. OFF should be the command for getting off something.


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## Pattie (13 November 2017)

CorvusCorax said:



			That's pretty normal dog body language. 
Personally speaking I wouldn't set him up to fail and would remove the conflict by putting obstacles on the furniture when not in use. Clothes drivers, upturned washing baskets etc. 
These will make the human furniture less attractive to him if he can't get comfortable.

With a dog like this he would never be on the furniture...some dogs, particularly those without whom a proper relationship is yet established, don't know the different between sometimes allowed and sometimes not. Sometimes when we feel like a cuddle but not allowed whenever we feel like it, isn't fair to dogs like this.

Also I wouldn't confuse the commands for off and down. He was probably already lying DOWN on the furniture. OFF should be the command for getting off something.
		
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Well we do use the 'off' command, I was just saying what had happened. My other dog never stood bent over just staring at nothing, maybe he's having a power nap.LOL He's never allowed on the furniture and most times he will come down when commanded to. He likes the one chair as he likes to look out of the window. He knows he's not allowed, he sometimes jumps down before being asked. He is defiant at times though. I'm going to buy him a nice comfortable bed - well, another one- so that he is comfortable on his own stuff.


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## CorvusCorax (13 November 2017)

It's a stress signal and personally I wouldn't approach a dog displaying that behaviour - it might be worth looking into these signals to avoid any snapping or biting again as that would be a big red flag to me that it's on the cards (generally).
So would try and find some way to physically prevent him being on there in the first place and avoiding the conflict in this particular scenario.


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## ponyparty (13 November 2017)

Mine isn't a working dog no, he's a Manchester terrier - they're not the easiest of breeds, although mine has (thankfully) matured into a well rounded little dog. I have definitely had a few "argh what have i done?!" moments though - I've had him since 8 weeks old and when he hit adolescence it was pretty challenging. Wouldn't change him for the world though - and would have another in a heartbeat! 
You may just find that you need to relearn what you thought you knew about dogs. Terriers just aren't wired up the same as other breeds. Sounds like you're doing all you can already - definitely second getting in touch with the breed rescue, also see if there are any groups on Facebook specifically for Patterdales. I know that the Manchester Terrier facebook group has helped keep me sane and realise that what I thought was odd behaviour was actually completely normal for a MT! It's nice to be able to share stories and anecdotes and ask for advice from those who know the breed inside out.


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## CorvusCorax (13 November 2017)

Or another idea is move the chair away from the window if that's logistically possible. Might also remove a platform for him to go off alarming at things outside. At the moment he probably thinks it's his gaffe and he controls who comes and goes and tells you about all the dangers lurking outside. 
You have to teach him that no, it's ok, you and the OH are taking care of that and it's not something for him to worry about. Will make him feel more stable too. It's not fun for dogs to be constantly on the alert.


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## Pattie (13 November 2017)

I'm also confused about getting a head collar or harness to stop the dog from pulling. The reason I started this thread was because I was at my wits end with the pulling on the lead, and the lunging and barking at other dogs. Quite honestly, if someone had come and said they'd have him last week I would have given him away gladly, he'd injured me three times in a few days. Nothing permanent, but the strain is awful and walk not enjoyable at all. Some people say use one, others say don't. Is it better to use an anti pull harness in conjunction with training to make everything a bit less stressed? I don't like the head collars.


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## Pattie (13 November 2017)

CorvusCorax said:



			Or another idea is move the chair away from the window if that's logistically possible. Might also remove a platform for him to go off alarming at things outside. At the moment he probably thinks it's his gaffe and he controls who comes and goes and tells you about all the dangers lurking outside. 
You have to teach him that no, it's ok, you and the OH are taking care of that and it's not something for him to worry about. Will make him feel more stable too. It's not fun for dogs to be constantly on the alert.
		
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Not possible to move the chair. To be honest, this has improved massively, he used to be on the chair the minute we blinked when he first came, now just now and then, usually if we're in the kitchen. He stays in the hall when we are not in the house. He has moments when he barks at anything when he is not on the furniture. I reassure him and  sometimes go with him to show him that there is nothing that I am worried about. I can say cone and sit down and shh him and that usually works most of the time now. He is coming on.


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## Pattie (13 November 2017)

ponyparty said:



			Mine isn't a working dog no, he's a Manchester terrier - they're not the easiest of breeds, although mine has (thankfully) matured into a well rounded little dog. I have definitely had a few "argh what have i done?!" moments though - I've had him since 8 weeks old and when he hit adolescence it was pretty challenging. Wouldn't change him for the world though - and would have another in a heartbeat! 
You may just find that you need to relearn what you thought you knew about dogs. Terriers just aren't wired up the same as other breeds. Sounds like you're doing all you can already - definitely second getting in touch with the breed rescue, also see if there are any groups on Facebook specifically for Patterdales. I know that the Manchester Terrier facebook group has helped keep me sane and realise that what I thought was odd behaviour was actually completely normal for a MT! It's nice to be able to share stories and anecdotes and ask for advice from those who know the breed inside out.
		
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I'll look for a Facebook page. Before we'd had the dog a week I realised that this was no ordinary dog! We barely needed to train our other rescue dog and she was not as smart as this one. She would have been winning Crufts if we'd put this amount of effort into her training!


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## Pattie (13 November 2017)

I do appreciate all of you input, it gives me ideas to work with. Thanks


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## CorvusCorax (13 November 2017)

I wouldn't use a harness to be honest and I wouldn't be 'walking' him in the classic sense. 

I would put the work in with him in training (and that will be weeks and months of training him to walk nicely, which will tire him out!) and 'exercise' him by making him use his brain. 
Every time he tows you somewhere, it's a self rewarding exercise and he's won.
If you go into a sport like canicross or bikejor the dog is encouraged to pull and it's an activity and a purpose. You teach a distinction between when is appropriate to pull and when is not.

I've been there and it's boring and frustrating and I've had every dog related injury under the sun but when your dog walks down the street on a loose line then you know it's all worth it!
Currently nursing a very sore bum after an amazing comedy pratfall on Saturday night (which wasn't the dogs fault in fairness) and two very bruised hands (someone else's dog!)


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## CorvusCorax (13 November 2017)

Oh and to make you feel even better my dearest darling doggie DID injure me this weekend when he smashed his skull into my eye socket. The pratfall happened ten minutes later and superseded the headbutt, which I am SURE was done with affection  in terms of ouchiness.


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## ester (13 November 2017)

and they say horse riding is dangerous....


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## Pattie (22 November 2017)

Update on my little chap. I took him to another trainer who seems a bit more clued up with reactive dogs. He did some good stuff with him and managed to let him play with two of his dogs on a long trainer lead but free for a good few minutes. He had him walking close to him to heel and my dog really looked happy running around the field with the other dogs. The only thing I didn't like was him using a slip lead on him. He looked to be in discomfort, I don't think I'll get one of those, but I'm using his collar rather than his harness for training parts of is walk. I going to use his heeling method in conjunction with a more positive approach to stop him from lunging and barking which I just found online. I have to report back in a couple of weeks to let him know how we'e getting on. I forgot to ask him if all of his walks should be close to heel or just training ones, as my dog doesn't like being held close to heel. I know the point is to get him better on the lead, but he has to have some fun in life. My arms are aching and dithery from holding him so tight on the lead, this is not going to be fun for me either, must persevere though.


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## CorvusCorax (22 November 2017)

Sounds like progress!

I like slip leads.

If he has a bit of discomfort in his life, it won't kill him. Its like pressure and release with horses. Do X = momentary discomfort. Stop doing X = discomfort ceases. I'll post a link in a moment. 

With that in mind, when you're walking there should never be constant pressure on the leash. If there is pressure constantly, of course the dog will resist and he'll never learn anything. You'll be undoing anything this trainer is working on.
Personally speaking, if my dog pulls, he goes nowhere. When the line goes slack, we go forward. If that takes weeks of not going further than a few steps, so be it. It might not be 'fun for either but long term it teaches him something.
If the dog constantly pulls and constantly gets to where he wants to go and what he wants to do, what does he learn?


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## CorvusCorax (22 November 2017)

http://growingupguidepup.org/the-punishment-of-positive-only/


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## Pattie (22 November 2017)

CorvusCorax said:



			Sounds like progress!

I like slip leads.

If he has a bit of discomfort in his life, it won't kill him. Its like pressure and release with horses. Do X = momentary discomfort. Stop doing X = discomfort ceases. I'll post a link in a moment. 

With that in mind, when you're walking there should never be constant pressure on the leash. If there is pressure constantly, of course the dog will resist and he'll never learn anything. You'll be undoing anything this trainer is working on.
Personally speaking, if my dog pulls, he goes nowhere. When the line goes slack, we go forward. If that takes weeks of not going further than a few steps, so be it. It might not be 'fun for either but long term it teaches him something.
If the dog constantly pulls and constantly gets to where he wants to go and what he wants to do, what does he learn?
		
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I told the trainer that I just stop and he suggested to keep going. I think he just thinks the discomfort will stop him from pulling eventually, because he was pulling when he brought the dogs out. He doesn't pull all the time, he was perfect on the way back, but then, he often is.


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## CorvusCorax (22 November 2017)

Yep....they all know how to walk on a loose line on the way home


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## Pattie (22 November 2017)

CorvusCorax said:



http://growingupguidepup.org/the-punishment-of-positive-only/

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'The end result is Dexter. A Weimaraner-Viszla mix that was twice relinquished to a kill shelter, because potential death at the end of a hypodermic needle at ten months of age was considered kinder than a leash correction and the word &#8220;no.&#8221;' 

That part is so true, I'm conflicted by people telling me/reading you shuldn't use a halti, slip leads etc and watching my dog take a lunging, barking step back to the rescue centre. A bit of discomfort now and he could have a good life with us, or am I abusing him so have to R+ and take him back to the rescue centre because I can't handle his reactive behaviour? Thanks for that article.


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## Molasses (22 November 2017)

Well done you for rescuing the world's worst/best dog
I've also got a rescue patterdale, about 6 years ago now, he lured me in with his best angelic face and only later did i learn i'd adopted the devil. But best little devil ever. He hacks out with me too so is excellent off lead, but it took about a year of persistence to achieve that. 

Just to give you some insight into what's ahead for you I wrote this some time ago:

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/foru...essons-%96-24-things-learnt-from-a-Patterdale


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## Pattie (22 November 2017)

Molasses said:



			Well done you for rescuing the world's worst/best dog
I've also got a rescue patterdale, about 6 years ago now, he lured me in with his best angelic face and only later did i learn i'd adopted the devil. But best little devil ever. He hacks out with me too so is excellent off lead, but it took about a year of persistence to achieve that. 

Just to give you some insight into what's ahead for you I wrote this some time ago:

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/foru...essons-%96-24-things-learnt-from-a-Patterdale

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Ha, I'm half way down the list in between doing the cleaning. Check, check and check. He hates strong wind and has just taken on the vacuum cleaner.


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## Alec Swan (22 November 2017)

Pattie said:



			I told the trainer that I just stop and he suggested to keep going. &#8230;&#8230;.. .
		
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If the basics of heel walking are approached in such a fashion by your trainer,  I'd wonder what other aspects to their work are in doubt.

The principles of heel walking are that the dog walks with you,  is mindful of where you are and adjusts it's walking speed to suit you &#8212; NOT the other way about.  The discomfort attached to pulling on a lead probably won't have any effect until the dog is about 14 years of age.  With permanent contact via the lead and the dog 3 or 4 lengths in front of you,  the effect is that the dog has no need to consider you or where you are because he knows.

All of that said,  you have a Patterdale and if you ever actually manage any permanent degree of correct heel walking &#8230;. then you will be entitled to consider yourself at the top of the Trainer's leader board!  I suppose we could research whether anyone has Patterdales in obedience competition (OK so there's bound to be one at least!),  such is their outlook on life.

I said to you,  I believe and pages back,  that any progress would be slow,  very slow,  but having read your first few posts it would seem to me that there are improvements,  even though they're seemingly slight.  I also suspect that you've listened and taken on board the entirely sensible advice of other posters and that you may be viewing the dog and your approach from a more practical and realistic direction.  Well done!

Alec.


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## Pattie (22 November 2017)

Oh and when we got back home from the trainer, I took him for his walk. Let him stay out n the yard for a few minutes then brought him in. Minutes later I noticed that he had urinated in his lounge bed. Give me strength.


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## ponyparty (22 November 2017)

Molasses said:



			Well done you for rescuing the world's worst/best dog
I've also got a rescue patterdale, about 6 years ago now, he lured me in with his best angelic face and only later did i learn i'd adopted the devil. But best little devil ever. He hacks out with me too so is excellent off lead, but it took about a year of persistence to achieve that. 

Just to give you some insight into what's ahead for you I wrote this some time ago:

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/foru...essons-%96-24-things-learnt-from-a-Patterdale

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This is BRILLIANT! So funny and a lot could also apply to a Manchester...


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## Clodagh (22 November 2017)

It sounds like you are doing really well.
In a training book for labs I was reading it recommended a choke chain, rather than a slip lead, as it said if you put them on correctly the dog gets an audible warning that it is about to become tight. Not sure if that would be any help, or if the risk of injury would be too high. Also, being a terrier a rattle probably would not press the off button. 
The trainer in the book also says say heel when you set out, in a postitive but firm voice, and then keep the lead short wenough that they have to be next to you. Say 'no' if they pull, so many of us keep saying 'heel' which when they aren't is just making it a meaningless word to be ignored. Since we started training the pups like that they picked up heel a lot quicker. (We don't use choke chains, although I used to in Australia with no ill effects). You sort of go along saying heel in a nice voice when they are roughly right and then no in a sharp voice when they aren't. I also knee them to push them off balance if they pull, a la Cesar Milan.


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## Pattie (22 November 2017)

Clodagh said:



			It sounds like you are doing really well.
In a training book for labs I was reading it recommended a choke chain, rather than a slip lead, as it said if you put them on correctly the dog gets an audible warning that it is about to become tight. Not sure if that would be any help, or if the risk of injury would be too high. Also, being a terrier a rattle probably would not press the off button. 
The trainer in the book also says say heel when you set out, in a postitive but firm voice, and then keep the lead short wenough that they have to be next to you. Say 'no' if they pull, so many of us keep saying 'heel' which when they aren't is just making it a meaningless word to be ignored. Since we started training the pups like that they picked up heel a lot quicker. (We don't use choke chains, although I used to in Australia with no ill effects). You sort of go along saying heel in a nice voice when they are roughly right and then no in a sharp voice when they aren't. I also knee them to push them off balance if they pull, a la Cesar Milan.
		
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Thanks. that is useful advice re heel and 'no', though some pet forums say never say no! I will though. I do keep him next to me but he is so strong, my chest hurts from holding him today.


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## ponyparty (22 November 2017)

Pattie said:



			some pet forums say never say no!
		
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Really?! Never, even if their dog is chewing their favourite handbag, or getting a bit rough with play biting? Or about to eat something poisonous? Or jumping up at a guest's face who is terrified of dogs?

I think teaching a dog the meaning of the word "No" - or a sharp "a, a!" - is so important. Especially with a terrier - they are so feisty and wilful. They need even firmer handling than many large dogs. Clear boundaries which are ALWAYS enforced. 

Before mine was neutered, if he saw another dog he'd lunge toward it (mostly to try and hump it, rather than anything aggressive). This became a nightmare at Badminton last year - there were so many dogs! He lunged and lunged and eventually made me spill my champagne! That was the final straw, as you can imagine  I marched him off to a stand selling pet supplies and got a figure-of-8 lead (I was going to get a Halti but he would not tolerate it at all). He behaved impeccably in the figure of 8. I still occasionally use it, say if we're going to a crowded area and I need him under close control; but I just use it as a slip lead for normal everyday use. I can't recommend a figure-of-8 enough - versatile, easy to use, safe, well tolerated by my dog. He can still bark, pant, drink and take treats whilst wearing it. I'd say it has been invaluable in teaching him to walk to heel, and he will walk nicely in just a slip lead now.


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## Dano1223 (22 November 2017)

Sounds like you're making steps forward with him and anyone that's willing to rescue a Crocodale deserves a medal in my eyes.

I really dont have much advise other than, would you be happy tailoring your life around him, more so than a normal dog? For me, that really takes some of the enjoyment away from dog ownership. The, being worried about if you see dogs out on your walk or certain friends/family not wanting to come round because they're scared or what you do with him when you go on holiday, is he suitable for kennelling? Probably cant leave him with family, friends or even when (and he will) comes trotting in proud as punch from the garden with the neighbours cat, fox, the post man hanging out his mouth.

Always things to consider and it''s just whether you're happy to take those extra precautions for the next 10-13 years


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## Pattie (22 November 2017)

This dog is said 'no' to, very often.  don't think I can put up with this. it's the pulling and walking I can't stand. I ist lost my rag with him, did it work? NO! to cap the walk off, we met another dog and he started barking and carrying on. I can't do this.


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## TGM (22 November 2017)

ponyparty said:



			Really?! Never, even if their dog is chewing their favourite handbag, or getting a bit rough with play biting? Or about to eat something poisonous? Or jumping up at a guest's face who is terrified of dogs?

I think teaching a dog the meaning of the word "No" - or a sharp "a, a!" - is so important. Especially with a terrier - they are so feisty and wilful. They need even firmer handling than many large dogs. Clear boundaries which are ALWAYS enforced.
		
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I think the logic behind not saying 'No' is that a dog can't do a 'No' - so rather than saying 'No' all the time, you actually tell the dog what you want them to do.  So if the dog is doing something they shouldn't you might tell them to 'come', 'leave', 'down', or whatever is appropriate at the time.  I do agree with this in part, because it must be very confusing for a dog to be told 'no' all the time, in a range of very different circumstances, plus they tend to become rather immune to it.  However, I do agree that it is useful to have an emergency response, like a very loud 'no', or 'oi', or similar.  But I think a lot of the effect is actually because it startles the dog into stopping whatever they are doing!


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## Alec Swan (22 November 2017)

TGM said:



			&#8230;&#8230;.. .  But I think a lot of the effect is actually because it startles the dog into stopping whatever they are doing!
		
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I'd doubt that it matters what we 'say',  providing that we achieve the end result! 

Alec.


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## splashgirl45 (22 November 2017)

Pattie said:



			This dog is said 'no' to, very often.  don't think I can put up with this. it's the pulling and walking I can't stand. I ist lost my rag with him, did it work? NO! to cap the walk off, we met another dog and he started barking and carrying on. I can't do this.
		
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dont give up, this post sounds a bit desperate... why not try a halti or figure of 8 or a slip lead so that you can walk without getting your arms pulled out of their sockets....i know you dont like them but why not try, it may just be a help to get him concentrating on you and not anything else on the walk the once you have mastered that you can use an ordinary collar.  i dont understand why you are letting him pull you about and are only using a nice gentle collar, he needs to be taught that this behaviour isnt acceptable and if he gets a little uncomfortable for a while he may learn. he isnt a tiny puppy so a bit of tough love is acceptable...


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## CorvusCorax (22 November 2017)

If a dog doesn't learn the difference between acceptable and unacceptable behaviour then it is guessing all the time and having to make choices all the time and dogs can find that incredibly stressful. They're generally the ones with grey whiskers by the time they're four or five.

Pattie...my last dog was 40kg. This one is 31kg when not in work. I'm not a big or strong person physically.
I've been there with the tears and the tantrums and the constant aches and pains and walks being a torture that I dreaded every evening.
But both dogs have changed my life for the better, taught me so much and helped expose me to great people and amazing experiences. We got there in the end.

Use a tool If you have to, lose your rag occasionally (but don't be unfair on the dog), you can do this (if of course you want to...and he's still with you  )


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## TGM (23 November 2017)

Alec Swan said:



			I'd doubt that it matters what we 'say',  providing that we achieve the end result! 

Alec.
		
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I think you are right in that at that point in time when we want the dog to do what we want, it is just important to get the end result.  However, I think it does help in the greater scheme of things to understand the difference between a 'taught' command, such as 'sit', 'down', 'stay' etc., and the way we utilise a dog's natural reaction to our advantage, such as a loud 'oi' to startle or distract them.


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## Pattie (23 November 2017)

splashgirl45 said:



			dont give up, this post sounds a bit desperate... why not try a halti or figure of 8 or a slip lead so that you can walk without getting your arms pulled out of their sockets....i know you dont like them but why not try, it may just be a help to get him concentrating on you and not anything else on the walk the once you have mastered that you can use an ordinary collar.  i dont understand why you are letting him pull you about and are only using a nice gentle collar, he needs to be taught that this behaviour isnt acceptable and if he gets a little uncomfortable for a while he may learn. he isnt a tiny puppy so a bit of tough love is acceptable...
		
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We'd already decided to get  a Halti before I read your post. I try holding him in the heel position, but he's just too strong,he walks into me as well so it's a really uncomfortable position for me. He's small but deadly! I'm not sure he'll accept the Halti, but got to give it a try. It's ok for that trainer letting him close to his dogs who he has full control over, but I've just had two bouts of barking on the walk, one fella doesn't put his dogs on a lead ever, even when they ran over to me one time. He soon started going the other way when my dog got into full flow.


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## Pattie (23 November 2017)

CorvusCorax said:



			If a dog doesn't learn the difference between acceptable and unacceptable behaviour then it is guessing all the time and having to make choices all the time and dogs can find that incredibly stressful. They're generally the ones with grey whiskers by the time they're four or five.

Pattie...my last dog was 40kg. This one is 31kg when not in work. I'm not a big or strong person physically.
I've been there with the tears and the tantrums and the constant aches and pains and walks being a torture that I dreaded every evening.
But both dogs have changed my life for the better, taught me so much and helped expose me to great people and amazing experiences. We got there in the end.

Use a tool If you have to, lose your rag occasionally (but don't be unfair on the dog), you can do this (if of course you want to...and he's still with you  )
		
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Did they ever get to walk on the lead nicely?


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## CorvusCorax (23 November 2017)

Yes. Current one still has his moments when he'd like to get to the park quicker than I would but when he realises it's not going to get him anywhere, he wises up. Dogs only do things that are (in their perception) in their own best interests and will improve their own position. Therefore pulling = standing still or going in the opposite direction. Rubbish.
He's not good when other dogs get up in his face therefore I changed the association, if we see another dog coming I allow him to carry his ball so he thinks another dog coming is a great thing.


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## Pattie (23 November 2017)

CorvusCorax said:



			Yes. Current one still has his moments when he'd like to get to the park quicker than I would but when he realises it's not going to get him anywhere, he wises up. Dogs only do things that are (in their perception) in their own best interests and will improve their own position. Therefore pulling = standing still or going in the opposite direction. Rubbish.
He's not good when other dogs get up in his face therefore I changed the association, if we see another dog coming I allow him to carry his ball so he thinks another dog coming is a great thing.
		
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I tried taking a toy on the walk, he wasn't interested in it ,despite my manic attempts to play with him with it. I stop and make him give eye contact or sit when he pulls when we set off, he pulls harder. He can walk lovely, then we have a nice walk. He's lovely most of the time in the house, just a nut job most of the time outside. I tried giving him a lot  of treats when we meet another dog, again, not really interested and I'm giving him treats whilst fighting against his pulling. Going to get a Halti now, it's Halti or bust for this dog!


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## CorvusCorax (23 November 2017)

If he's not hungry the treats won't matter to him. As it says in the article, figure out what his drives are and go from there. Obviously if his drive to mill another dog outweighs all else, then you don't indulge that 

Did you look into any of the sports or activities suggested? As it really does sound like you both need some sort of an outlet.


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## ponyparty (23 November 2017)

Take him with you to get the halti - try it on him in the shop, and try on a figure of 8 lead as well, I'm sure an assistant would help you (they're easy once you know how!). Try any other brands of similar product on him. See which he takes to the best. I had a halti for a previous dog and she never stopped trying to get it off. I tried a halti on my current dog and he hated it - but accepted to figure of 8 almost immediately. Just don't want you to limit yourself to one product and then get disheartened when your dog fights it, they're not all the same and different tools work for different dogs (same as horses!). Good luck!


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## splashgirl45 (23 November 2017)

ponyparty said:



			Take him with you to get the halti - try it on him in the shop, and try on a figure of 8 lead as well, I'm sure an assistant would help you (they're easy once you know how!). Try any other brands of similar product on him. See which he takes to the best. I had a halti for a previous dog and she never stopped trying to get it off. I tried a halti on my current dog and he hated it - but accepted to figure of 8 almost immediately. Just don't want you to limit yourself to one product and then get disheartened when your dog fights it, they're not all the same and different tools work for different dogs (same as horses!). Good luck!
		
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agree with this, a friend of mine has a very strong excitable hound and both her and her husband could hardly hold him in a normal collar but they tried a figure of 8 and they can take him for a walk and have fingertip control, dont know why they work but they do...


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## BallyJ (23 November 2017)

Hi Pattie,

I'm no where near a professional, but do have a 2yr old Terrier who REFUSES to learn heal (3 dog trainers all refused a second session) she barks at passing dogs, is ok (ish) at recall and snappy at home, but i adore her!
She isn't allowed to get away with anything - she is allowed on the sofa when invited but only in the last year! A figure of 8 lead is indispensable it has meant i can take her to the local country shows! she's a different dog in it! - Just make sure they don't get out of it 


--- If anyone has on tips on heal for a JRT please let me know, tried;

                                          - Stopping & calling her back 
                                          -  stopping and ignoring her until she comes back
                                          - Slip lead with the 'pull and release' method
                                         - turning sharply when she pulls 
                                          - A Harness (she literally walked on her hind legs)


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## Pattie (23 November 2017)

BallyJ said:



			Hi Pattie,

I'm no where near a professional, but do have a 2yr old Terrier who REFUSES to learn heal (3 dog trainers all refused a second session) she barks at passing dogs, is ok (ish) at recall and snappy at home, but i adore her!
She isn't allowed to get away with anything - she is allowed on the sofa when invited but only in the last year! A figure of 8 lead is indispensable it has meant i can take her to the local country shows! she's a different dog in it! - Just make sure they don't get out of it 


--- If anyone has on tips on heal for a JRT please let me know, tried;

                                          - Stopping & calling her back 
                                          -  stopping and ignoring her until she comes back
                                          - Slip lead with the 'pull and release' method
                                         - turning sharply when she pulls 
                                          - A Harness (she literally walked on her hind legs)
		
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Oh  dear, she is on a par or not as well behaved. My dog did snap when we first got him, he seems ok now, but I don't take anything for granted. The worst thing which we can't even address yet, is the fact that he will run off so we cannot let him off the lead. All garden gates have to be closed, dog put in another room if going out of the front or back without him as he will bolt for the door and run. We are looking into to putting up porches, but we need planning permission so it will take some time. My dog just goes flat to the floor on a harness, or I have to have the lead very short which is when I find it difficult.


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## Pattie (23 November 2017)

Knew we had a Halti somewhere,  we've recently moved, couldn't find it for weeks. Looked for it again this morning,nowhere. Bought a Halti, they were great with him at the shop. Came to let him out of his cage when I got back and saw something under the passenger seat, yes, said missing Halti. Life eh!


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## Alec Swan (23 November 2017)

BallyJ said:



			&#8230;&#8230;..

--- If anyone has on tips on heal for a JRT please let me know, tried;

                                          - Stopping & calling her back 
                                          -  stopping and ignoring her until she comes back
                                          - Slip lead with the 'pull and release' method
                                         - turning sharply when she pulls 
                                          - A Harness (she literally walked on her hind legs)
		
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I'll add a tip,  and I'm being serious;  Accept that you have a dog which will not have its mindset changed.  

I 'have' (just to see if I could!) had a terrier walking to heel off-lead,  but it never lasted because it was never going to! 

Alec.


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## BallyJ (23 November 2017)

Alec Swan said:



			I'll add a tip,  and I'm being serious;  Accept that you have a dog which will not have its mindset changed.  

I 'have' (just to see if I could!) had a terrier walking to heel off-lead,  but it never lasted because it was never going to! 

Alec.
		
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I accepted this the day I got her! she's a stroppy, loving and adores me (almost as much as i her) and i find that the most rewarding thing about them, they're loyal! 

We have a Lab that will wander next to you all day & night if required, but she would do this for anyone who asked where as the JRT has 2 or 3 family members she counts as worthy of her time, everyone else may as well not be there!


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## Pattie (23 November 2017)

BallyJ said:



			I accepted this the day I got her! she's a stroppy, loving and adores me (almost as much as i her) and i find that the most rewarding thing about them, they're loyal! 

We have a Lab that will wander next to you all day & night if required, but she would do this for anyone who asked where as the JRT has 2 or 3 family members she counts as worthy of her time, everyone else may as well not be there!
		
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My dog is not loyal to me. He tolerates me.


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## Alec Swan (23 November 2017)

Pattie said:



			I tried taking a toy on the walk, he wasn't interested in it ,despite my manic attempts to play with him with it. &#8230;&#8230;..
		
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Pattie said:



			My dog is not loyal to me. He tolerates me.
		
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And for as long as you try to gain his approval by 'manic-playing',  whilst attempting to instil discipline;  for as long as you continue to send him opposing and mixed messages,  so he will continue to see you as an irrelevance.

I was starting to think that you were making progress,  but now I'm not so sure.  I think that the basic mindset of your dog seems to be passing by you.  Sorry Pattie,  but that's how it is.

Alec.


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## Pattie (23 November 2017)

Alec Swan said:



			And for as long as you try to gain his approval by 'manic-playing',  whilst attempting to instil discipline;  for as long as you continue to send him opposing and mixed messages,  so he will continue to see you as an irrelevance.

I was starting to think that you were making progress,  but now I'm not so sure.  I think that the basic mindset of your dog seems to be passing by you.  Sorry Pattie,  but that's how it is.

Alec.
		
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Don't be so superior, I tried that when I first had him as everybody is giving me advice, some of which I know does not work with him. Like treats won't work with him if he's hungry, who knew!


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## blackcob (23 November 2017)

Pattie said:



			I tried taking a toy on the walk, he wasn't interested in it ,despite my manic attempts to play with him with it.
		
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This was me, a few years ago now, tearing my hair out over a dog I should never have had. I took advice from here (including CC's!  ) and was doing all the right things but still it seemed an insurmountable task with an impossible sodding dog who would never listen to me, who used to pull my arms out, fly like a kite on the end of the lead and be distracted by anything and everything but me. We'd make a tiny bit of progress in the house, focusing on a treat or toy, but it went out of the window the second we went out. She also had severe, destructive separation anxiety and therefore had almost nothing going for her as a pet. I despaired, I cried, more than once I picked up the phone to ask if I could take her back and was seconds from dialling the number.  

I loathe and detest Haltis but did resort to one for several months just to make her physically manageable.

Nearly eight years later (gawd where did that time go?) she is absolutely indescribably the best dog, my best friend and an absolute ambassador for her breed. It WILL come together, it is NOT impossible. I am not going to lie, it was bloody hard work and I would not judge anybody who decided that modifying their lifestyle to accommodate a bloody-minded, non-obedient type of dog was not for them and bowed out by going back to rescue. I just wanted to say that you are doing all the right things and it is absolutely possible to manage breed traits in a positive way. You are not alone in this!


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## Alec Swan (23 November 2017)

Pattie said:



			Don't be so superior, &#8230;&#8230;.. !
		
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It isn't a case of being superior but of having been where you are now.  It can be a trifle frustrating when advice is sought,  well established and experienced bods offer their thoughts which are mostly grounded on the one thing which you lack,  experience,  and then promptly ignored!  

Had you not wanted to listen,  why didn't you say that from the outset?  I'd have done what I'm going to do now,  withdraw. 

Alec.


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## Pattie (23 November 2017)

Alec Swan said:



			It isn't a case of being superior but of having been where you are now.  It can be a trifle frustrating when advice is sought,  well established and experienced bods offer their thoughts which are mostly grounded on the one thing which you lack,  experience,  and then promptly ignored!  

Had you not wanted to listen,  why didn't you say that from the outset?  I'd have done what I'm going to do now,  withdraw. 

Alec.
		
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I'm not bothered, I am listening and I've been given some good advice from posters who understand that it's difficult and are more supportive.


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## Pattie (23 November 2017)

blackcob said:



			This was me, a few years ago now, tearing my hair out over a dog I should never have had. I took advice from here (including CC's!  ) and was doing all the right things but still it seemed an insurmountable task with an impossible sodding dog who would never listen to me, who used to pull my arms out, fly like a kite on the end of the lead and be distracted by anything and everything but me. We'd make a tiny bit of progress in the house, focusing on a treat or toy, but it went out of the window the second we went out. She also had severe, destructive separation anxiety and therefore had almost nothing going for her as a pet. I despaired, I cried, more than once I picked up the phone to ask if I could take her back and was seconds from dialling the number.  

I loathe and detest Haltis but did resort to one for several months just to make her physically manageable.

Nearly eight years later (gawd where did that time go?) she is absolutely indescribably the best dog, my best friend and an absolute ambassador for her breed. It WILL come together, it is NOT impossible. I am not going to lie, it was bloody hard work and I would not judge anybody who decided that modifying their lifestyle to accommodate a bloody-minded, non-obedient type of dog was not for them and bowed out by going back to rescue. I just wanted to say that you are doing all the right things and it is absolutely possible to manage breed traits in a positive way. You are not alone in this!
		
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Thank you for your post and words of encouragement. 
It's great that you managed to train your dog. We are lucky, that we have been able to leave him and he has always gone in a crate in the car without a fuss. He also is, for the most part, house trained.


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## Pattie (23 November 2017)

ponyparty said:



			Take him with you to get the halti - try it on him in the shop, and try on a figure of 8 lead as well, I'm sure an assistant would help you (they're easy once you know how!). Try any other brands of similar product on him. See which he takes to the best. I had a halti for a previous dog and she never stopped trying to get it off. I tried a halti on my current dog and he hated it - but accepted to figure of 8 almost immediately. Just don't want you to limit yourself to one product and then get disheartened when your dog fights it, they're not all the same and different tools work for different dogs (same as horses!). Good luck!
		
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Thanks. He was both calm and trying to get the Halti off in the shop. I'll see how he gets on on his first walk. Good idea about trying other things though.


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## CorvusCorax (23 November 2017)

Well you're not getting rid of me that easily lol 
You probably can't see the positives yet as you are so close to the situation, but they're there.

Both BC and I were pretty normal when we first started coming on here


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## Pattie (23 November 2017)

CorvusCorax said:



			Well you're not getting rid of me that easily lol 
You probably can't see the positives yet as you are so close to the situation, but they're there.

Both BC and I were pretty normal when we first started coming on here 

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I'm not trying to get rid of anyone - honest. I appreciate everyone's advice. Some of it directly opposed to other bits. So I have to take on board what works. Which by the way is precisely nothing yet - on walks at least. He's lovely most of the time inside.


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## CorvusCorax (23 November 2017)

I'm only ever bouncing out lots of ideas and what I would do in your situation. This is a forum and you are free to take on board or completely disregard anything anyone says. Like BC when we all told her not to get a husky 

As with everything, take on board and use things which you think will help your individual dog!


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## Pattie (23 November 2017)

CorvusCorax said:



			I'm only ever bouncing out lots of ideas and what I would do in your situation. This is a forum and you are free to take on board or completely disregard anything anyone says. Like BC when we all told her not to get a husky 

As with everything, take on board and use things which you think will help your individual dog!
		
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And I do appreciate it. As I said some people say do a thing and someone else says never do that thing. I can't follow both pieces of advice, so I try both and see what works. I'm no sued to a dog like this, he is a nightmare at times. \like just now on the walk, a loose dog, never seen him before but he's always getting out apparently, I go out with my dog and he goes ape. So the loose dog comes running up to us and follows us. My dog is going ape and making the situation worse. I just don't know what to do with him when he's barking at dogs. I'm trying what the trainer said, not working!! Heeelp!


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## blackcob (23 November 2017)

FWIW, the things that worked for us:

Dog sports/activities/breed appropriate exercise outlet - knackering out the body so we could eventually work on knackering out the mind was a pivotal moment. Agility is one of the most accessible and inclusive, and addictive. Dog sports organisations are full of similar-minded nutte... I mean, people, who have probably been where you are with their first dog, are full of advice, are another set of eyes for troubleshooting where things might be going wrong and are usually happy to accommodate less than perfect dogs as long as you're seen to be learning and trying your best. 

Finding a good trainer who was happy to work with 'quirky' dogs. We would have been chucked out of the typical village hall arrangement but benefited hugely from recall workshops held outside, in small groups with plenty of space and one-to-one time. Did someone mention Craig Ogilvie upthread? His interactive play workshops are another good example. It took a bit of shopping around and dodging the yank 'n crank types before we found trainers that worked for us. 

The books I read most during that time were The Culture Clash by Jean Donaldson and Control Unleashed by Leslie McDevitt. 



CorvusCorax said:



			Both BC and I were pretty normal when we first started coming on here 

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Your definition of normal must be quite broad.


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## Pattie (23 November 2017)

blackcob said:



			FWIW, the things that worked for us:

Dog sports/activities/breed appropriate exercise outlet - knackering out the body so we could eventually work on knackering out the mind was a pivotal moment. Agility is one of the most accessible and inclusive, and addictive. Dog sports organisations are full of similar-minded nutte... I mean, people, who have probably been where you are with their first dog, are full of advice, are another set of eyes for troubleshooting where things might be going wrong and are usually happy to accommodate less than perfect dogs as long as you're seen to be learning and trying your best. 

Finding a good trainer who was happy to work with 'quirky' dogs. We would have been chucked out of the typical village hall arrangement but benefited hugely from recall workshops held outside, in small groups with plenty of space and one-to-one time. Did someone mention Craig Ogilvie upthread? His interactive play workshops are another good example. It took a bit of shopping around and dodging the yank 'n crank types before we found trainers that worked for us. 

The books I read most during that time were The Culture Clash by Jean Donaldson and Control Unleashed by Leslie McDevitt. 



Your definition of normal must be quite broad. 

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This is not our first dog, this is our first strong-willed, feisty, temperamental dog. We shouldn't have rescued him, but we did, so we are responsible for him. I'm looking into agility, but I can't see how it will work with all those dogs there. The trainer said he might be able to go to reactive dog classes, which will be cheaper and hopefully, get him used to dogs and not barking.


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## planete (23 November 2017)

And...breathe.  I have been there, got the T-shirt.  The most helpful thing you can do for yourself is to accept the situation as it is now and relax.  It is a steep learning curve.  It is not going to change overnight no matter what methods you use so, in the meantime, tell yourself that your dog going ape at the end of the lead is not the end of the world, keep walking, even if you have to drag the little so-and-so.  So many of us have been there.  He will improve, bit by bit as he gets settled and your training starts to dent his need to rage.  You will learn to manage the situation and to know when and where to walk him to avoid melt downs most of the time.  If you think he might actually bite anything that comes too close, get him used to a muzzle so he cannot get himself and you into trouble, it will also help you relax if you know he cannot bite (look at kikopup videos on youtube for training ideas).


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## Pattie (28 November 2017)

planete said:



			And...breathe.  I have been there, got the T-shirt.  The most helpful thing you can do for yourself is to accept the situation as it is now and relax.  It is a steep learning curve.  It is not going to change overnight no matter what methods you use so, in the meantime, tell yourself that your dog going ape at the end of the lead is not the end of the world, keep walking, even if you have to drag the little so-and-so.  So many of us have been there.  He will improve, bit by bit as he gets settled and your training starts to dent his need to rage.  You will learn to manage the situation and to know when and where to walk him to avoid melt downs most of the time.  If you think he might actually bite anything that comes too close, get him used to a muzzle so he cannot get himself and you into trouble, it will also help you relax if you know he cannot bite (look at kikopup videos on youtube for training ideas).
		
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I walk him away from dogs, but there are always one or two that drift into our vision. I don't know if he would bite or not, he's barked at a couple of bitches and the owners have come close with them, then he loses interest and does his won thing With dogs, he is more aggressive and doesn't stop. Thinking about it, those two bitches didn't bark at him, when the other dog barks, he doesn't stop. I walk past the dogs pulling and tugging him, but it's not very pleasant, nothing seems to work except just dragging him away, which is not teaching him anything. He does ull when he gets the scent of another dog or something else. This morning, no dogs, nothing he wanted to sniff and we had a lovely walk.


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## oldie48 (29 November 2017)

Keep it up Pattie!One thing I have noticed since I've been out there training Stanley is the number of poorly trained dogs that we meet. Most are straining at the leash, many have zero recall and lots bark incessantly. My neighbour has 2 manic terriers and a lurcher, she can't let any of them off the lead and they are all completely neurotic and bark at everything AND I mean everything! Difference is with you (and me) is we want our dogs to behave and will work to achieve it. We haven't got easy dogs to train but I fully believe the effort is worth it. Stan the BT will heel both on the leash and off it as long as I've got something in my hand to reward him for the effort, once he's been rewarded he "forgets"! He's never going to walk obediently by my side like a BC or lab but I can get him to come to my side if I need to and for the moment that's good enough. Small steps can get you a very long way down the road. Don't get downhearted.


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## CorvusCorax (29 November 2017)

Last night my dog was on lead and carrying his ball. A lab came right up in his face in the dark to say hi. And he growled like hell and sounded like a beast from the black lagoon. But didn't drop his ball. So I said 'whoops, sorry, please pardon Mr Grumpy' and we walked on and I took the ball back and we continued. Not his finest hour, but if you make reasonably light of it and carry on businesslike, most people really don't mind. I know if someone else's dog gobs off at mine and they keep it under control and keep going, I appreciate it more than a poor experience for them both.


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## Pattie (29 November 2017)

oldie48 said:



			Keep it up Pattie!One thing I have noticed since I've been out there training Stanley is the number of poorly trained dogs that we meet. Most are straining at the leash, many have zero recall and lots bark incessantly. My neighbour has 2 manic terriers and a lurcher, she can't let any of them off the lead and they are all completely neurotic and bark at everything AND I mean everything! Difference is with you (and me) is we want our dogs to behave and will work to achieve it. We haven't got easy dogs to train but I fully believe the effort is worth it. Stan the BT will heel both on the leash and off it as long as I've got something in my hand to reward him for the effort, once he's been rewarded he "forgets"! He's never going to walk obediently by my side like a BC or lab but I can get him to come to my side if I need to and for the moment that's good enough. Small steps can get you a very long way down the road. Don't get downhearted.
		
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Thanks for your post, he is getting better in so many ways, just not the barking.lunging and pulling. I've been trying a Halti collar these last two days. It does make a big difference and he doesn't bother too much about it, but he doesn't like it. I have one part of the lead on his harness and one on the Halti, mostly I've been able to hold him on the harness, it's bliss. I have to keep up the other training I would do if I wasn't using a Halti, getting eye contact, moving with me,  etc but I do that at a separate time. He is stopping for his treats more I bought some cocktail sausages, sometimes I just say 'sausages' and he comes back.  I'm annoyed by the owners who have their dogs off lead and allow them to come up to you with yours which is on a on a lead. How long have you had your dogs?


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## Pattie (29 November 2017)

CorvusCorax said:



			Last night my dog was on lead and carrying his ball. A lab came right up in his face in the dark to say hi. And he growled like hell and sounded like a beast from the black lagoon. But didn't drop his ball. So I said 'whoops, sorry, please pardon Mr Grumpy' and we walked on and I took the ball back and we continued. Not his finest hour, but if you make reasonably light of it and carry on businesslike, most people really don't mind. I know if someone else's dog gobs off at mine and they keep it under control and keep going, I appreciate it more than a poor experience for them both.
		
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He didn't want to share his ball. I wish my dog  would walk with a ball in his mouth. I meet one lady who has a dog off lead and she always puts him on before we get there. I don't mind passing her as I trust her to control her dog and I can try some training with my dog. We both just keep walking as the dogs yell at each other!


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## pippixox (29 November 2017)

i would recommend the yellow I need space jackets- even though you of course want to socialize him, it means people should actually give him more room and put their dog on lead (not that everyone does!) 

also you could try and find a local dog walking group or adult dog training class,so you know what dogs you will be around

I also did a 'skills and tricks' class with my local dog training club, and it really helped my rescue bond with me and stimulated her mind massively. also it was a small class with other dogs all under close control so she quickly ignored them


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## oldie48 (29 November 2017)

Pattie said:



			Thanks for your post, he is getting better in so many ways, just not the barking.lunging and pulling. I've been trying a Halti collar these last two days. It does make a big difference and he doesn't bother too much about it, but he doesn't like it. I have one part of the lead on his harness and one on the Halti, mostly I've been able to hold him on the harness, it's bliss. I have to keep up the other training I would do if I wasn't using a Halti, getting eye contact, moving with me,  etc but I do that at a separate time. He is stopping for his treats more I bought some cocktail sausages, sometimes I just say 'sausages' and he comes back.  I'm annoyed by the owners who have their dogs off lead and allow them to come up to you with yours which is on a on a lead. How long have you had your dogs?
		
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Stanley is our third BT and we've had him from 8 weeks and he's very trainable for a terrier, he wants to please. I don't have experience of patterdales but I think terriers really need very clear boundaries and absolute consistency, Stan is clever, bold and exceptionally friendly but potentially quite independent. I work quite hard to be his focus. Since hitting adolescence, he's a dream at home but more challenging when other dogs are around so I am using a long line (and Alec will hate this) I carry monkey on a piece of string. If Stan sees another dog, I give him the chance to come back to me but if I have to stop him using the long line I use "monkey" to get his focus back on me and we play take it, leave it, tuggy etc. He's not very food orientated so we usually have our long first walk before he has breakfast and I do sit/stays using treats as a reward. I feel I know what Stan will respond to and I try to think ahead so we avoid undesirable behaviour. MIL is 99 and quite fragile so jumping up at mealtimes is a complete no, no so I make sure Stan is occupied with a kong before she sits down to eat with us and I work on "not jumping up" when she is in her own space. I have to admit I'm really enjoying the training but I was lucky enough to have a completely blank canvas. well done for perservering with your rescue, he's a lucky chap.


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## CorvusCorax (29 November 2017)

Seriously. Who gives a fiddlers what other people think as long as your dog isn't harming himself, you or someone else or their dog. Do what works. My dog has a dummy tit too. Neither he nor I have anything to prove. And neither does the OP or anyone else as long as no harm is being caused.


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## CorvusCorax (29 November 2017)

To add to the above, with my last dog, chilling the hell out and walking on past (and sometimes singing a silly song as per FinnishLapphund's advice), worked wonders. If you're constantly tensing up and waiting for the next conflict, why wouldn't that travel down the lead to the dog.

Don't be ashamed of Monkey  or whatever other tactic you use to try and get over a hurdle.


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## Pattie (30 November 2017)

pippixox said:



			i would recommend the yellow I need space jackets- even though you of course want to socialize him, it means people should actually give him more room and put their dog on lead (not that everyone does!) 

also you could try and find a local dog walking group or adult dog training class,so you know what dogs you will be around

I also did a 'skills and tricks' class with my local dog training club, and it really helped my rescue bond with me and stimulated her mind massively. also it was a small class with other dogs all under close control so she quickly ignored them
		
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I'm thinking I might try classes as they should know what to do with him when he meets new dogs to him and them and help us. I didn't know those jackets existed! It may be worth a try, just so that people don't think I'm a nutter. I'm fairly new to this village and I thought it would help to meet people walking a dog, they all think I'm mad not wanting my dog to get too close to theirs.


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## Pattie (30 November 2017)

CorvusCorax said:



			Seriously. Who gives a fiddlers what other people think as long as your dog isn't harming himself, you or someone else or their dog. Do what works. My dog has a dummy tit too. Neither he nor I have anything to prove. And neither does the OP or anyone else as long as no harm is being caused.
		
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I agree with this, you have to do what is best for your dog and you. I'm trying the Halti, which is working, I don't have back and hip ache anymore. I'm carrying on with training in the hope that I alleviate the 'dread' walks and train him to walk nicely anyway. I now some people don't agree with them, but this dog is so reactive and pulling, I had to do something, when I first started this thread I would have cheerfully given the dog to the first person who would take him. Not so now, I love him. (I did before I tried the Halti)


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## Pattie (30 November 2017)

oldie48 said:



			Stanley is our third BT and we've had him from 8 weeks and he's very trainable for a terrier, he wants to please. I don't have experience of patterdales but I think terriers really need very clear boundaries and absolute consistency, Stan is clever, bold and exceptionally friendly but potentially quite independent. I work quite hard to be his focus. Since hitting adolescence, he's a dream at home but more challenging when other dogs are around so I am using a long line (and Alec will hate this) I carry monkey on a piece of string. If Stan sees another dog, I give him the chance to come back to me but if I have to stop him using the long line I use "monkey" to get his focus back on me and we play take it, leave it, tuggy etc. He's not very food orientated so we usually have our long first walk before he has breakfast and I do sit/stays using treats as a reward. I feel I know what Stan will respond to and I try to think ahead so we avoid undesirable behaviour. MIL is 99 and quite fragile so jumping up at mealtimes is a complete no, no so I make sure Stan is occupied with a kong before she sits down to eat with us and I work on "not jumping up" when she is in her own space. I have to admit I'm really enjoying the training but I was lucky enough to have a completely blank canvas. well done for perservering with your rescue, he's a lucky chap.
		
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It is the independence bit and making you the focus, it is coming I can really see that now. (Not when we see a dog though, but he is noticing me more at such times.) Sounds like you are doing a good job with your dogs. I might try the monkey thing, as my dog does like toys. (Not when he sees a dog, but you never know, over time...) Thanks for your last sentence, I hope he thinks he's lucky!


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## oldie48 (30 November 2017)

Pattie said:



			It is the independence bit and making you the focus, it is coming I can really see that now. (Not when we see a dog though, but he is noticing me more at such times.) Sounds like you are doing a good job with your dogs. I might try the monkey thing, as my dog does like toys. (Not when he sees a dog, but you never know, over time...) Thanks for your last sentence, I hope he thinks he's lucky!
		
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Before I starting using Monkey when we are out and about, I played with Stan at home, always high energy, leave it and take it, getting him to sit when I have monkey out of his reach and finishing the game when I know he'd like to continue and I never let him have it to play with on his own so it stays "special". It's a lot more motivating to him than a food reward.


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## Pattie (30 November 2017)

oldie48 said:



			Before I starting using Monkey when we are out and about, I played with Stan at home, always high energy, leave it and take it, getting him to sit when I have monkey out of his reach and finishing the game when I know he'd like to continue and I never let him have it to play with on his own so it stays "special". It's a lot more motivating to him than a food reward.
		
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I'll try that first then, good advice, thanks.


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## Cherryblossom (4 December 2017)

I feel your pain! We adopted a patterdale x 2 years ago- charity had advertised it as JRT and i had never heard of the breed (not common in this part of the country).

Hes stubborn, opinionated, often badly behaved... hes also the doggy love of my life! Ive been on here a number of times, and had really good advice, and have also used behaviouralists and classes. What worked for me was consistency and mental stimulation. 2 years in, every time I get the lead out he jumps up and down and barks like mad, and every time I wait until he is sitting quietly before putting the lead on... the length of time he barks for is decreasing and were now down to about 5 seconds.... but I can never give an inch. Id softened up on letting him on furniture, and the result was him growling at people (I had a thread about it if you search my history). Reinstating firm boundaries has made him much happier and more relaxed. 

We fairly frequently rent agility courses and use them to mentally stimulate him- the first class we did, he watched the demo dog do each obstacle and then was straight over it perfectly each time.... he is so incredibly smart when he isnt using his brains for evil! At home I teach him a new trick every few weeks- he loves it and it gives me a toolkit for when were out and about... Ive found spin to be really useful- if other dogs are coming near I can get him to do that and it gets him focussed on me and in an obedient mindset but its also got the advantage of involving movement.... sit was never successful when there was so much energy around. I know more experienced people would probably insist on and achieve perfect behaviour straight up, but I like to set us up for success, so our journey went spin- spin then sit when focussed- sit on command. The other great command was stop which is still a work in progress, but mostly works. 

So now I have a dog who is far from perfect- he still goes mad at the postman, he still reacts if another dog lunges at him on the lead, and Ill never trust him 100%... but he can go off lead in our local park (which is shut off except for the road), his recall is, Im told excellent for a terrier, and who the dog training class people think will excell at heel work and agility, if I can ever get into a class!


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## Pattie (5 December 2017)

Cherryblossom said:



			I feel your pain! We adopted a patterdale x 2 years ago- charity had advertised it as JRT and i had never heard of the breed (not common in this part of the country).

Hes stubborn, opinionated, often badly behaved... hes also the doggy love of my life! Ive been on here a number of times, and had really good advice, and have also used behaviouralists and classes. What worked for me was consistency and mental stimulation. 2 years in, every time I get the lead out he jumps up and down and barks like mad, and every time I wait until he is sitting quietly before putting the lead on... the length of time he barks for is decreasing and were now down to about 5 seconds.... but I can never give an inch. Id softened up on letting him on furniture, and the result was him growling at people (I had a thread about it if you search my history). Reinstating firm boundaries has made him much happier and more relaxed. 

We fairly frequently rent agility courses and use them to mentally stimulate him- the first class we did, he watched the demo dog do each obstacle and then was straight over it perfectly each time.... he is so incredibly smart when he isnt using his brains for evil! At home I teach him a new trick every few weeks- he loves it and it gives me a toolkit for when were out and about... Ive found spin to be really useful- if other dogs are coming near I can get him to do that and it gets him focussed on me and in an obedient mindset but its also got the advantage of involving movement.... sit was never successful when there was so much energy around. I know more experienced people would probably insist on and achieve perfect behaviour straight up, but I like to set us up for success, so our journey went spin- spin then sit when focussed- sit on command. The other great command was stop which is still a work in progress, but mostly works. 

So now I have a dog who is far from perfect- he still goes mad at the postman, he still reacts if another dog lunges at him on the lead, and Ill never trust him 100%... but he can go off lead in our local park (which is shut off except for the road), his recall is, Im told excellent for a terrier, and who the dog training class people think will excell at heel work and agility, if I can ever get into a class!
		
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Thanks for your post. What tricks do you teach him other than spin and is there a web sit I can look at? Glad you're managing to get some control of him. I have made some progress with mine, he used to go nuts at the start of the walk, jumping up and down and biting his lead, he never does that now as I made him calm leaving the house and garden,then sit, then gave him a treat. I had a bad 'bark' walk today where we encountered about 6 dogs, unusual. The Halti saved me! I am looking into some kind of groupl training to see if I can socialise him a bit. The agility classes also sound good.


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## Cherryblossom (5 December 2017)

I started with the ones that involve movement, so figure 8 through my legs, doing an army crawl along the ground, I bought a cheap indoor agility kit and do stuff in the kitchen. As he learned to focus more I started doing more pure obedience things- used his advent calendar to consistently teach him to balance a treat on his nose and wait, and built on it from there. As he grew to enjoy that, I would take him to secure areas where he could be let off the lead, and spend time letting him run, and then doing training with him, which taught him that if I call him back, its not always to stop his fun and restrain him.

I really recommend the book when pigs fly- its very terrier-centric. And the advice I continue to get from this forum is totally invaluable- there are some really experienced dog people on here. 

Good luck!


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## Pattie (5 December 2017)

Cherryblossom said:



			I started with the ones that involve movement, so figure 8 through my legs, doing an army crawl along the ground, I bought a cheap indoor agility kit and do stuff in the kitchen. As he learned to focus more I started doing more pure obedience things- used his advent calendar to consistently teach him to balance a treat on his nose and wait, and built on it from there. As he grew to enjoy that, I would take him to secure areas where he could be let off the lead, and spend time letting him run, and then doing training with him, which taught him that if I call him back, it&#8217;s not always to stop his fun and restrain him.

I really recommend the book &#8216;when pigs fly&#8217;- it&#8217;s very terrier-centric. And the advice I continue to get from this forum is totally invaluable- there are some really experienced dog people on here. 

Good luck!
		
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Thanks, great ideas. That book has been mentioned before, I must get it. He is getting better, he used to lunge at his food, then I got him to sit, now he will sit for 30 seconds (I'm sure he could do longer) and doesn't go to his bowl until I give the command, it will be great to get some fun things for him to learn. Thanks again.


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