# Severe and rapid weight loss



## dray123 (24 May 2010)

Hi everyone,

I just wanted to ask your advice really if you had any ideas what the problem with my tb could be,

basically, I brought him in September and when we had the second lot of snow in december he lost within a month lots and lots of weight (he didnt have a lot of fat to begin with being a skinny tb), he also became depressed and moody and didnt really do a lot except a noticeable increase in the windsucking.

Now, I had the dentist out and he told me that he had extremly bad teeth and when he put his hand in he actually cut his hand. He also said that in the whole 6 years of his life he didnt appear to of ever had a dentist to look at his teeth they were in such bad state. So the dentist filed them down and did what he could to help him and hes coming back in August to check and file them some more. After the dentist had been I thought the weight would just pile on, obviously I was wrong!

Its been 2 months and hes only put on a little bit. Although it is noticeably a lot to me because I see him everyday, he still looks extremly underweight.

After the dentist had come out, a few weeks later I called the vet, who checked him over and did a blood test and basically said there was nothing wrong with him, he had just recovered from a virus and that it was my feeding that was the problem and that I should contact Dobson and Horrell for some specialist feed advice. I was to also worm him and box him and let him in the field for only a few hours.

In contacting D&H exactly like the vet had told me, they advised I tried their barley rings and speedi beat. If only things were that simple! Jase doesnt seem to like barley rings, we've tried them dry and soaked and he just spits them out, and doesnt even go near the speedi beat, being an ex-racer he pretty much only eats his chaff, mix & nuts.

At the minute im feeding him on 1 large scoop of alfa oil, 1 large scoop of build up mix, 1 cup of equijewel, small scoop of nuts and readi grass. He also has hay (doesnt eat haylage?) and 2 in the morning and 2 at night, he doesnt always finish his hay, he also has a feed 2-3 times a day and is out in the field living out because he doesnt like being boxed and runs round his stable/weaves till hes dripping with sweat and windsucks constantly, and when hes in the field his weaving/windsucking seems to disappear.


Am i being a complete twit about what im feeding him or do you all think theres something else going on?  Iv hoped I've explained it all reasonably well, if not a bit complicated - let me know


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## scally (24 May 2010)

From your description I would talk to your vets again about the possibility of stomach ulcers and would need scoping to get a firm diagonosis.  The symptoms match, especially loss of weight and windsucking.


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## jhoward (24 May 2010)

to be honest i think your feeding to much and half of what your putting into him is coming straight back out, also some of what your feeding is contridicting another item such as... 

alfa oil and redi grass. class both of these as chaffs. 

mix and nuts both are the same product. 

i would be feeding, the alfa oil with proberley blue chip not equi jewel, 

equi jewel is very high in oil as is the alfa, and its possible that your over loading his system. also worth noting that the equijewel doesnt contain all the required mins and vits needed. 

from memory.. you can feed around 1kg of alfa oil per feed for a horse of his type (am going on hes around 16.2 weighing around 500 kg) and equi jewel up to 3 mug fulls per feed. this combination would allow you to add a small amount of mix/beet for flavour and tempting to eat. 

the redi grass use it as an extra, they can have a small bucket full or even average size bucket full as a hay replacer. so aswell as he 3 feeds a day he can also have this. 

you may find that alot of his stressing is due to diet, your putting so much oil/sugar/protein etc into him it may just be sending nuts.


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## dray123 (24 May 2010)

Hmm im not sure tbh, since hes had what hes been having he has put some weight on, im just not entirely convinced its all down to his diet and theres not a hidden problem. The lady who owned him before me just used to feed him a bowl of nuts a day, and she was a "professional racehorse trainer" apparently.

I was looking on one of the other posts about stomach ulcers and theres some things that Jase does, for example, before he got drastically skinny and was still rideable he did become really grumpy when having his girth done up and changing his rug. They are signs of pain in his tummy, which may indicate a stomach problemo.

Also when we wormed him, he had lots of redworm in his droppings.


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## EmmaJaneWilliams (25 May 2010)

I would recommend getting some advice from other feed companies Topspec and Spillers are both very helpful. 

It would be helpful for him to have a gut balancer for a month or so help even things out.

What are his droppings/urine like? Does he have any problems going?


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## dray123 (25 May 2010)

He was on Restore recommended by someone at the feed shop, he doesnt seem to have any problems with his droppings.

Im really at a loose end with it all, hes so underweight and im being told so many different things by everyone i know, each recommending feeds that will work, and hes really fussy about what he eats and won't touch the stuff that will put the weight on him.

Horses ay, who'd be crazy enough to have them!


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## EmmaJaneWilliams (25 May 2010)

Most good feed companies will send you samples to see if he will eat it, and I know that it is different for different horses but I found Topspec conditioning flakes really good! And didn't make the horse fizzy!


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## SusieT (25 May 2010)

I would have him out in long (At least ankle length if possible) grass. wormed. Getting two feeds a day-of conditioning mix and linseed oil. I find spillers topline good. I wouldn't have him in due to the stressing. Obviously build this up gradually, but I would cut out the chaff. I would not be riding him and feed the feed weighed out according to manufacturers recommendations . This could be 4/5 scoops a day and obviously this needs built up slowly and I would try him on two scoops a day do begin with as I know very few horses on good grass and conditioning mix who don't pick up.


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## JanetGeorge (25 May 2010)

dray123 said:



			I was looking on one of the other posts about stomach ulcers and theres some things that Jase does, for example, before he got drastically skinny and was still rideable he did become really grumpy when having his girth done up and changing his rug. They are signs of pain in his tummy, which may indicate a stomach problemo.

Also when we wormed him, he had lots of redworm in his droppings.
		
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Stomach ulcers are certainlya possibility - although living out should have helped with that.  But the redworm would be my first bet.  What did you worm him with??  And do you know if he's an English TB - or whether he's come from elsewhere??  (I ask because there are SERIOUS wormer resistances - particularly redworms - in Australia.  A friend bought an Australian TB who had been over here 2 years, and despite regular worming, he was FULL of redworm.  Took some heavy duty blasting before she got him clear!


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## Happytohack (25 May 2010)

I would get a worm egg count if you have not already done so.  It would be best to rule out an underlying worm problem.  He may well have stomach acid problems.  I think I would probably get in touch with an independent qualified equine nutritionist for advice.  Obviously the ones who work for feed companies will recommend their own products (not that there is anything wrong in this) but an independent one, will give you impartial advice.  Let me know if you want a name.


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## Angelbones (25 May 2010)

Your horse sounds like my horse did at the end of the winter; lose of weight and condition, evil personality appeared from nowhere etc. I had blood tests done too - nothing there. He's recently been scoped for stomach ulcers - yep he has them. Hes been on Gastroguard for a week and hes a different horse already. I would worm him again with Equest Pramox - twice if you have to over a fortnight, then ask your vet about scoping him for ulcers. I'm having to cut down on my horse's feed now as he's piling it on a bit. Also, turn out to grass as much as you can now as stabling him will only make him worse if he's stressing and has ulcers. I got my boy onto a free scoping day - ask your vet about the possibility.


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## Amymay (25 May 2010)

What kind of grazing is he on???


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## Beans1 (25 May 2010)

Would agree to check for stomach ulcers.  Had this prob with my little TB, found to have stomach ulcers, changed his routine and he hasn't looked back!  

What is your horses coat condition?  Mine had dry flaky skin.  He also got more and more girth shy and started having regular bouts of low grade colic, all symptoms of stomach ulcers.


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## galaxy (25 May 2010)

I would also suggest getting him worm counted...  Especially as he did have red worm burden recently, just to be sure it's all gone.

A client of mine bought back a 15.2hh 25 yr old tb mare last Aug that had been starved (rspca involved).  She was given 1 scoop Alfa Oil, half scoop Baileys Conditioning Cubes and 1 mug of Equijewel, 3 times a day  (along with ad lib hay).  I was really unsure she would make it through the winter.  But come Feb we actually had to CUT the feed as she was huge!

So I'd suggest simplifying your feed.  

Can you not give your vet a call and have a chat about what to do next?


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## fatpiggy (25 May 2010)

My first, second and third thoughts would all be about ulcers. And as to what the previous owner fed him, forget it. I doubt very much its true and his unthriftyness could be the exact reason she got rid of him in the first place!  Don't forget that many modern feeds are very high in sugar which can upset many horses, especially the naturally hyper types (carrots can be disasterous and cause the trots as well). I would stick to the plainest feed you can find and remember, most horses do best on what nature intended for them - grass.  Stick to the usual rules of making changes slowly and feed little and often. Make sure that he is getting at least 2% of his bodyweight daily, and yes, ask for samples from the feed companies before you splash out on a whole bag which he then turns his nose up at.


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## applecart14 (25 May 2010)

Try Burgess Supa Barley Rings and Baileys Number 1 for really good weight gain feeds.


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## Flash_28 (25 May 2010)

If it does work out to just be a diet issue. I can not recommend Blue Chip highly enough for my horses, both ex racers. They eat it very easily. They did drop some weight in the winter and contacted Blue Chip as I was adding all sorts to their feed to try and bulk them up with the awful winter we were having and restricted grazing. Due to their ages (20 and 21) it was recommened to swap to Blue Chip Pro and they are looking amazing now, much better then I have seen them in a long time! All they get now is Blue Chip Pro, Alfa A Oil and Fibrebeet plus some Soya Oil. It works out much cheaper than all the extra feed I was buying too and produces a much better result!


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## hairycob (25 May 2010)

Sounds very much like a pony I used to ride. His problem turned out to be encysted roundworm breaking out of the gut lining. Remember encysted worms will not be picked up by a worm count. It was a few years ago but, if I remember correctly, in the end the diagnosis was confirmed by a gut biopsy. He had been wormed regularly but not sure what with. He was put on a special worming programme from the Vet that lasted several weeks but can't remember the details.


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## dray123 (25 May 2010)

Thanks for all the replies guys Iv made a list of all suggestions and feeds and stuff, and when the vet comes out tomorrow Il talk them all through with him.

At the minute hes putng on about 10-20 kg a week, although its not showing that much on him, im not really sure what the ideal amount of weight he should be putting on each week??

I got him from a lady who has a raceyard near wantage in oxford, her and her husband re train the racers after they have come out of racing. And Iv been having problems with her turning up unnanounced at my yard when she "passes by" (i live in bedfordshire), checking him over and sending me texts asking if although she cant buy him back she will always have him back. Not too sure what her deal is, but hes not going anywhere!

I did have the name of an equine nutritionist but have lost their number somewhere, so any numbers you can send me would be much appreciated 

At the minute he is living out, but because of the diabolical grass we have (or lack of) he doesnt have access to good grass. Although he as much haylage as he wants, although he only has a nibble.

When we first got him he was wormed with equest paramox and hes also had Panacurs 5 day guard which is what brought the worms out.

I deffinately still think its more than just his diet, Iv had horses all my life so I know you have to feed a horse to keep it alive, how his behaviour is etc there must be more too it.

Thanks for all the suggestions


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## ofcourseyoucan (25 May 2010)

how is he in himself now? does he look bright happy and alert? does he have a shiny coat?(yes i have read the posts but is he really thin or just thinner than you like/are used to) TB s dont carry much weight and he is probably a natural size 6!! you will never get him to be a chunky size 14! A worm count will tell you if he has an increased burden and so then you can deal with this. has he got a rain sheet for the nights? some tbs are not that tough. could you not find him some good grass to put him on even just for a few weeks Dr Green is really effective. his diet sounds ok but would stick to either readi grass or alpha. blue chip is very good i think the pro one has pre and pro biotics in it. you say he is gaining weight so obviously you are on the right track, unfortunately they loose it far quicker than they ever gain it! yes you could get him scoped for ulcers but i would discuss this with your vet as it is not a cheap option and you have said he is gaining weight! it was a hard winter for everyone. good luck and keep shovelling the grub in!


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## dray123 (25 May 2010)

now hes put a bit more weight on he has perked up. He was quite happily running about in the field earlier, which he wasnt really doing before. His coat isnt really that shiny at all, and hes not just a skinny tb, he is really drastically skinny. He is putting the weight on. He was at 408 and hes now 478 so hes putting on about 10 kg a week, give or take. I tried the blue chip before and really arent keen on it, he doesnt eat it aswell, hes very fussy and just about manages the equijewel.


What is Dr Green?


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## louised1henry (25 May 2010)

im the owners sister.

when we first had the vet out he was a tiny 408 and that was the 11th march.he is now at about 470.after the vet came we did the the equimax as it followed on from the one we gave him soon after he arrived.that brought out a fair few red worms so we left him for a few weeks and then did the pancur as we didnt want to over load him with to much wormer in a short space of time. and oh my god in all my years of horses ive never seen the amount of worms come out that he had.  he was riddled. it actually made me feel ill.

Along with the panacur we did the restore treatment from global herbs,and the combination of them both was unbelieveable with in a week he had his spark back and was back to being him and he actually started to graze and act like a horse again, instead of just standing there wind sucking.

his coat is very dull and he has got very flaky skin. every day we can see improvements but its slow and upsetting to see him looking so bad.  we were hoping be showing this year as hes got a beautiful jump. you never know whats round the corner do you....

so weve got the teeth sorted as they were disgraceful and were hopefully worm free so im hoping the only way is up.....have to see what the vet says tomorrow.....

what makes things worse is his old owner has reported him/us to the ilph sorry...... world horse welfare,and they also will be coming out tomorrow.

but ive been in long telephone discussions over the phone with them and we have all our paper work at the ready so fingers crossed they can see all the hard work weve been doing.....it makes me mad as he obviously had the teeth and worm problems way before we got him and were left picking up all the mess.


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## dbendell (25 May 2010)

Have you tried Pink Powder?  Its great stuff.  When my TB lost 150kg very very quickly I called the vet who said he had had a virus and was suffering from a post-viral syndrome.  Pink Powder along with Alfa a oil, Build up mix and soya oil helped dramtically.  I understand you have tried the alpha a oil/build up so perhaps add the Pink Powder and see.  I saw positive results within 2 weeks.


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## Natalie_H (25 May 2010)

I second pink powder. I've had great results with it. My TB has no problem with his weight, but the moodiness has gone and he is much more relaxed & happy.


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## TheBlack (25 May 2010)

it can also be a sign of underlying pain somewhere, worms or general poor health. TB'S are not the best doers anyway.


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## Maesfen (25 May 2010)

You could try him with some natural yoghurt too.  It won't help with weight gain as such but might make his stomach feel better so more able to use the nutrients he is given.


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## ofcourseyoucan (25 May 2010)

if h is happy with equijewel stick with it! would repeat the panacur 5 day guard to see if any more redworm are present!(again a worm count/bloods useful)  maybe add redcell or haemolyte to his feed for 7 days! as for the ilph or whw tell them to discuss this with your vet! dont worry you will be fine .. you have taken all the appropriate steps! the damage by the sounds of it is long term. you are the short term and have addressed the issues. 470 (on a weigh tape i presume) is not a welfare issue unless he is a whopper 18hh plus! unfortunately red worm can do serious gut damage which in some cases can be irreversible! keep in touch with your vet he really is your best advocate.


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## ofcourseyoucan (25 May 2010)

would also get 4 to 6 weekly blood profiles! incl red/white cell count, liver function, kidney function etc. ie a FULL blood profile! then you will see the results or not! and do try to find a really good field of grass for him! Dr Green is good grass!!!


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## Brandy (26 May 2010)

Haven't tried equijewel but Blue chip piled it on my old TB. Although use Simple Systems total eclipse for maintainence now. 

Good luck tomorrow, hopefully WHW will come when vet is there. Previous owner shoudl sod off - they let him get into thatstate withthe worms! Panacur 5 day is amazing for red worm - bought a sale pony and gave this, as you say, yuck!

Sounds llike he's going in right direction, but obviously your vet is best placed to advise - I would mention all behaviour and ask about ulcers just to be on safe side. And try to find some good grass for him, its the best thing yet!


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## Amymay (26 May 2010)

Dr Green is grass.

Sounds like you need to move him to some really good grazing.


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## Tempi (26 May 2010)

I've not read the replies, but you need to get your horse scoped immediately for stomach ulcers.  These can be caused by the windsucking, and if he was doing this more and staying in more when it was snowing then it is highly likly that all these things have caused the ulcers to flare up.  They also cause extreme weightloss.  They are very very painful and i would suggest not riding or exercising your horse until the vet has scoped him.

Im only see this as I myself am just recovering from stomach ulcers and it is the most painful thing i have ever experienced, all i wanted to do was curl up in a ball and sleep, but i couldnt because the pain was so bad.  Now i know how horses feel who have them


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## thundersprite (26 May 2010)

would def be worth getting bloods done to also test liver function as my mare was loosing weight , dull coat etc i got her scoped for ulcers but it turned out shes go a liver problem, shes doing ok nowv although still has a long way to go, as if its a liver problem you need a low oil , protein diet as only when i changed my mares died when we knew what was wrong she started to pic up so would def get a blood test if you can, as would also show up underlying infection etc


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## dray123 (26 May 2010)

Today when the vet came out, he basically said that its deffinately his diet and that he wasnt going to scope him because he would need to refer? He did his teeth, basically said what he said last time and said whatever we are doing now hes puttingon weight so keep going with it. hes only putting on about 10 kg a week, so is this not enough or too much??
Although hes putting it on the weigh tape you cant see if that noticeably on him.
The ilph bloke basically said that he doesnt need to come back either coz we are doing everything the vet is telling us to and thats not a welfare case, and that if it were us not doing what the vet said then he would have to become involved. So thats good to hear, now he can go and report to the psycotic woman who sold me him that in actual fact i do feed him 

Thanks for all your suggestions guys, il update with how hes getting on


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## Amymay (27 May 2010)

Get it on some decent grazing, and your horse will probably improve incredibly quickly.

Didn't realise this had become a welfare issue.


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## VetInTraining (27 May 2010)

If it turns out not to be ulcers you should mention chronic peritonitis to your vet. My tb had the same thing, suddenely off his food, fluctuating temperature, miserable, and severe weight loss despite him having plenty of pasture and feed given daily. Treatment depends on the type, but for finn he required antibiotic shots for 5 days (penicillin) and bute powder in his feed for about a week. The only definitive test is sticking a needle into the animals abdomen (i didnt have this done) as blood tests cannot really indicate it, but if nothing else is working it could be worth mentioning to your vet. Hope this helps.


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## kellyanglin (27 May 2010)

Hi - My mare had got (and gets repeat episodes) of stomach ulcers.  The first time we treated with Gastroguard after scoping and they healed well then all of  a sudden she lost a huge amount of weight, became very lethergic and was clearly dehydrated which then triggered a colic reaction which then disguised the fact that the first problem was the weight loss.  Took a while to figure out but we now believe and treat her like she has Inflamatory Bowel Disease (IBD), not sure wether this caused the ulcers or the ulcers caused the IBD, or indeed if totally unrelated considering how common ulcers are these days.  Unfortuantely there are no good tests which can definatively check for this, so we treated for it (streriods) and she responded well so we can assume that it was IBD.

Ongoing this is a pain to deal with but manageable, I have her scoped whenever I can to check for ulcers but whilst in there we check for any swelling or discolouration around the bowel (the part that the scope can reach), I then give her steriods for a little bit and keep a very close eye on behaviour and habits for any other tell tale signs that I have learned over time.

May be worth looking into if you dont have any other explanation for the weight loss, hope you figure it out.
x


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## Louby (27 May 2010)

I bought a really poor TB a few years ago, nothing seemed to put weight on her and the more I fed, the more stressed she become.  I moved her to a farm with very good grazing and within months she was a different horse.


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## dray123 (27 May 2010)

We are looking for good grazing at the minute, not really anything near us available so we are asking about etc. He really needs a lot of good grass and where are yard is is really sandy so the grass doesnt grow all that quick or... hardly ever


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## paulineh (27 May 2010)

Dray123

Talk to a chap called Roger Hatch of "Trinity Consultants" he is a wizard with helping horses with Nutritional / diet problems. His number is 01243551766  the website is www.justbespoke.com 

I'm sure Roger will be able to help.


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## dray123 (27 May 2010)

paulineh said:



			Dray123

Talk to a chap called Roger Hatch of "Trinity Consultants" he is a wizard with helping horses with Nutritional / diet problems. His number is 01243551766  the website is www.justbespoke.com 

I'm sure Roger will be able to help.
		
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Oh thanks, im going to give him a ring tomorrow, thankyou very much


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## Hoppa (28 May 2010)

Dray123.. I just noticed you dropped in there at the last minute that your grazing is very pooor and sandy??

Agree with what everyone else has said.. however! Low grade repetitive colic, weightloss etc these are signs of sand colic. If he is a poor doer, it is likely that as the grazing is poor he is hoovering up sand.

You need to get some Psyllium husks, should be available in feed shop (or they are sold under brand names, sand out, clear out sand -X etc)
Give him a big dose, then collect some of his poo and dissolve it in a clear plastic jug and let it settle. If you can see sand at the bottom, that means he has a build up of sand in his gut, which irritates the stomach lining and makes it difficult for food to be absorbed.
Its worth trying as its not expensive and at least you can rule out sand ingestion as a cause. PM me if you want any advice, I have unfortunately been through this many times.

Also second getting a worm count done, although these don't show encysted red worms or tapeworms.


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## Hoppa (28 May 2010)

I should have mentioned also, when a horse moves to sandy pastures, it takes around 12 weeks for sufficient sand to build up in their system before any symptoms appear.
Neglected/ poor doers always do worse on sand than other horses.

Don't feed psyllium everyday as it loses effectiveness. Should only be for one week out of four, try some bran mash on the weeks in between to help keep everything clear.


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## R2R (28 May 2010)

I have had quite a few skinny tb's. 

The best thing I can advise is ad lib haylage, four feeds a day of alfa-a with oil and a conditioning mix (1 scoop alfa/1/2 conditioning mix) in each feed, and oil.

Also lots of turnout. 

If the vet has said there is nothing wrong you need to asses your management. 

Good luck - if you want further help let me know.


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## amandaco2 (29 May 2010)

get his teeth rechecked
get an egg count and bloods for tape worms done- re-worm him with something like equest promax.
chat the the vet about scoping for ulcers.
having him out is probably the best thing but he needs decent grass as well as hay. does he stress in the field? is he out on his own? is he cold at night?
feed wise- concentrated energy feed is great- like the oil based products- little and often is best.
but it does sound like its an underlaying issue not do to with lack of feed...


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## dray123 (28 October 2010)

Just to update you all :

We called our old vet out and he did a glucose test. The results came back today and they were 5.1 at starvation and 5.9 after the 3rd hour. According to the vet on a "normal horse" they should of been at least 10.5.

We are not sure of the cause of this atm, it could be something to do with his pancreas, small intestine or damage caused by the severe worm burden. The vet is doing some more investigating and I'll keep you updated as to what happens.

After all of this it's not about his feed at all. The vet we had before we went back to our old one is a plonker and does not know what he is talking about! He gave us a diagnosis of : its us feeding him wrong, and we should contact D&H - said without examining my horse, taking unneccessary bloods and costing me a fortune!!


So happy we finally are getting somewhere now!


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## ImogenBurrows (29 October 2010)

dray123 said:



			Just to update you all :

We called our old vet out and he did a glucose test. The results came back today and they were 5.1 at starvation and 5.9 after the 3rd hour. According to the vet on a "normal horse" they should of been at least 10.5.

We are not sure of the cause of this atm, it could be something to do with his pancreas, small intestine or damage caused by the severe worm burden. The vet is doing some more investigating and I'll keep you updated as to what happens.

After all of this it's not about his feed at all. The vet we had before we went back to our old one is a plonker and does not know what he is talking about! He gave us a diagnosis of : its us feeding him wrong, and we should contact D&H - said without examining my horse, taking unneccessary bloods and costing me a fortune!!


So happy we finally are getting somewhere now! 

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Wasn't this linked to another thread I commented on a wee while ago?
So I take it that the horse has malabsorption: I'll be interested to know results of further workup!

Good luck.


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## dray123 (14 November 2010)

Just to update you all again on this thread too :

Starting this Monday we are trying him on a 2 week course of steriods with our fingers crossed he gains weight or improves somehow.
The vet has said that he has protein losing enteropathy which was possibly caused by the huge amount of worms he had when when we got him but who knows? 
Im a bit baffled by the fact that the lady who sold me possibly couldn't of known about this somehow, I only had him 8 weeks before he lost all the weight and this whole nightmare started. Anyone know if there is anything that can be done with regards to the owner essentially selling me a ill horse although saying there wasnt anything wrong with him?

Il update you again in two weeks


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## amandap (14 November 2010)

dray123 said:



			The vet has said that he has protein losing enteropathy which was possibly caused by the huge amount of worms he had when when we got him but who knows?
		
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I had a pony diagnosed eventually with this.
A steroid injection that he had once made his diarrhoea worse. I hope this isn't the case with your fella. Watch out for gingivitis aka gum disease.
Thinking of you and sending strength.

Just to say my fella was/appeared normal and well and suddenly developed severe diarrhoea. Maybe a coincidence but he started soon after we moved to a rented farm.


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## glenruby (14 November 2010)

Have treated a few horses with same in recent mths. All had good outcomes (except one who was PTS for unrelated veterinary problems diagnosed at the same time). Hope you get a good response to tretment.


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## dray123 (14 November 2010)

amandap said:



			I had a pony diagnosed eventually with this.
A steroid injection that he had once made his diarrhoea worse. I hope this isn't the case with your fella. Watch out for gingivitis aka gum disease.
Thinking of you and sending strength.

Just to say my fella was/appeared normal and well and suddenly developed severe diarrhoea. Maybe a coincidence but he started soon after we moved to a rented farm.
		
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Could you tell me a bit about it? Completly new thing to me, I've done a little bit of research about it but didn't find much. Is it a fatal condition or will Jase's treatment of steriods "cure" it or is it not that simple?


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## amandap (14 November 2010)

dray123 said:



			Could you tell me a bit about it? Completly new thing to me, I've done a little bit of research about it but didn't find much. Is it a fatal condition or will Jase's treatment of steriods "cure" it or is it not that simple?
		
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I'm afraid I can't. I had the same problem researching and the vet wasn't much clearer so I made the assumption it was a sort of 'only thing left' diagnosis.
I don't know if it's fatal and from glenruby's post it isn't.:We had no choice but to treat him symptomatically vitamin B injections etc. depending on his bloods which began to show liver damage and anaemia as time went on.
Tbh I'm not 100% certain the diagnosis of my boy was correct more that it was all the vet was left with as a possible cause. In view of steroids seemingly the treatment my boy may well not have had protein loosing enteropathy.

Sorry if I've caused confusion but this was my experience. I'd have a word with your vet about prognosis but it does sound that most have a good outcome.


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## ImogenBurrows (15 November 2010)

dray123 said:



			Just to update you all again on this thread too :

Starting this Monday we are trying him on a 2 week course of steriods with our fingers crossed he gains weight or improves somehow.
The vet has said that he has protein losing enteropathy which was possibly caused by the huge amount of worms he had when when we got him but who knows? 
Im a bit baffled by the fact that the lady who sold me possibly couldn't of known about this somehow, I only had him 8 weeks before he lost all the weight and this whole nightmare started. Anyone know if there is anything that can be done with regards to the owner essentially selling me a ill horse although saying there wasnt anything wrong with him?

Il update you again in two weeks
		
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The problem is with conditions like this that they are essentially "silent" in all clinical ways until it rears it's ugly head - possible due to a completely unrelated trigger factor.  

I realise it's frustrating, but it is most likely the previous owner genuinely didn't know anything about any of this.  Moving the horse into a new regime may have been enough to exacerbate the inflammation in the bowels that was ticking along ok until that time.  Age related changes also occur and new environments will alter ongoing worm challenge - anything could have tipped the horse over the edge from subclinical to clincal...
Sorry, but I think you should probably stop focusing on whether the previous owner knew or not and where to lay blame and just focus on the horse and his current issue.  I know you care a lot about this horse, but sadly the only thing you can do anything about is him, not the history. 



dray123 said:



			Could you tell me a bit about it? Completly new thing to me, I've done a little bit of research about it but didn't find much. Is it a fatal condition or will Jase's treatment of steriods "cure" it or is it not that simple?
		
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Protein losing enteropathy (PLE) is what happens as a consequence of inflammatory bowel disease (IBD) or some other conditions which turn the bowel wall effectively into a colander.  The lining of the gut wall is made up of lots of cells tightly bound together.  When inflammatory cells invade the gut lining these bonds are weakened and protein can "leak" out of the gut.  Eventually, water will follow the protein and will settle in the most dependent part of the body (i.e. sheath/under the belly).  This shows up as a plaque of swelling under the belly or in the sheath and is known as ventral oedema.  Not all horses show this. Some horses will also start showing diarrhoea to a greater or lesser extent, some may not.  Most present with weight loss or often, failure to gain weight in the face of an increased feed regime. 

The big question is what is causing the PLE? 
There are many things - IBD being the most common group of diseases and lymphoma is possibly next most common.   As I said before, without doing an intestinal biopsy of an abnormal and inflammed piece of the intestine, it is impossible to pinpoint this exactly.

It's quite an expensive and invasive test to get a specific diagnosis- especially when consider the treatment options don't vary in any case.  All these conditions are not really "curable"; more "manageable".

The good news is they are often very manageable and horses often respond very well to dietary adjustment as well as steroids.  The steroids reduce inflammation within the gut wall and in acute cases may be enough for a "remission".  

This however sounds more like the vet is assuming there is old worm damage - I can't remember if you have had a tapeworm ELISA test run in all of this? I suspect it will be or was high. 

If the cause of the PLE is from scarring due to mass emergence of worms at some point, the scarring will stay permanently, but may be well managed with steroids. I would recommend that you are ever rigorous with your worming protocol and always worm 2xyearly for tapeworm regardless of the poo count (unless the ELISA result was low!).

Obviously if there hasn't been a biopsy done, then scarring is the most likely, but not the only cause.  
*IF* the treatment doesn't work, then you may be left with the vet re-examining the cause of the PLE - and looking more towards lymphoma.  Please don't panic, _most_ of these patients do cope on the steroids ok too.

The final thing to mention IMO is that while the vet has put the horse on a 2 week course to start with, this won't "fix" him in the most likely scenario.  It should give you and the vet a reasonable opportunity to see if he responds - although personally IME I find where weight conditions are involved I need at least a 4-6 week course to really tell me anything.  I suspect your vet will want to reassess in 2 weeks and then keep going for a longer period in any case. 

I would be aware that this type of condition is often about the long term management, so be prepared for long term vs life long medication to be on the cards. 

Hope that helps
Imogen


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## jessandthegirls (19 November 2010)

havent read all the replies, so sorry if im repeating. 

BLUE CHIP BLUE CHIP BLUE CHIP. If he's out, make sure he's rugged enough- get a worm count and try and keep him as calm as possible- if this means living out then so be it. The windsucking is a big issue as it brings on the threat of ulcers, to my knowledge a vet cannot rule ulcers out just by looking at a horse, surely he would need to scope? i stand to be corrected. i had my mare scoped and they didnt find anything. her weight loss is down to stressing when boxed- weaves and box walks. i avoid stabling her where possible and swear by good hay and ble chip.

if he crib bites, i bruch cornucresine (sp) on the gate/fence- no horse in there right mind likes the taste!

good luck  x


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## dray123 (19 November 2010)

jessandthegirls said:



			havent read all the replies, so sorry if im repeating. 

BLUE CHIP BLUE CHIP BLUE CHIP. If he's out, make sure he's rugged enough- get a worm count and try and keep him as calm as possible- if this means living out then so be it. The windsucking is a big issue as it brings on the threat of ulcers, to my knowledge a vet cannot rule ulcers out just by looking at a horse, surely he would need to scope? i stand to be corrected. i had my mare scoped and they didnt find anything. her weight loss is down to stressing when boxed- weaves and box walks. i avoid stabling her where possible and swear by good hay and ble chip.

if he crib bites, i bruch cornucresine (sp) on the gate/fence- no horse in there right mind likes the taste!

good luck  x
		
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We've found out whats wrong with him and hes got a malabsorption problem, so its a lot more serious that what we origionally thought and not that its a feed problem. Thankyou for the blue chip recommendation tho


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## amandap (20 November 2010)

dray123 said:



			We've found out whats wrong with him and hes got a malabsorption problem, so its a lot more serious that what we origionally thought and not that its a feed problem.
		
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Oh sorry to read this. Thinking of you both.


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