# Cross breeds



## Crugeran Celt (17 March 2018)

Ok I have just seen an advert on facebook for cockerpoo puppies costing £850 each. I am astounded and would like to know how we have gone from owners giving away cross bred puppies to them costing more than a pedegree. Seems completely mad to me.


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## CorvusCorax (17 March 2018)

*BING BONG*
Customer service colleague to aisle two please, canned goods department, worm section.
*BING BONG*


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## CMcC (17 March 2018)

Crugeran Celt said:



			Ok I have just seen an advert on facebook for cockerpoo puppies costing £850 each. I am astounded and would like to know how we have gone from owners giving away cross bred puppies to them costing more than a pedegree. Seems completely mad to me.
		
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That is cheap. My sister was looking at Cockerpoos last year, one woman wanted over £1,000. Sister bought a proper Cocker for far less!

Saw an ad for whippet X poodle - £750!


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## blackcob (17 March 2018)

*KLAXON*

Aroooogah!


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## Amymay (17 March 2018)

Yep, sister in law paid £950 for theirs.

To be fair they are  a fantastic cross for the active family - but the price tags are enormous.


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## {97702} (17 March 2018)

Crugeran Celt said:



			Ok I have just seen an advert on facebook for cockerpoo puppies costing £850 each. I am astounded and would like to know how we have gone from owners giving away cross bred puppies to them costing more than a pedegree. Seems completely mad to me.
		
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It IS totally mad..... people are suckered in by the claims made for these cross breeds, if only they researched their breeds properly they would find a pure bred which would meet their needs (e.g. perfect family dog) and they wouldn't be funding these BYBs


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## TGM (17 March 2018)

The trouble is most people want dogs just as pets, they are not concerned with having papers for breeding or showing.  So many pedigree breeders have succumbed to breeding exaggerated features for the show ring that they have frightened the average pet dog owner away.  So they opt for the cross bred instead, particularly if bred by someone they know.  I know a lot of pedigree breeders are now doing health testing, but customer confidence has been badly eroded and will take time to rebuild.


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## CorvusCorax (17 March 2018)

As I've said before and it is maybe a regional variation, all the ones here are extremely reactive and don't seem to be able to cope with normal, everyday, busy, noisy environments. That's not what I call a good family pet.
Paying almost 1k for something that looks cute but cacks itself when someone drops a saucepan or dissolves into a barking mess when another dog walks down the other side of the street is lunacy IMO.
And with no papers or ID checks you don't know who is who and generations of weak-nerved dogs will be interbreeding with each other.
That stands for any sort of established breed or crossbreed.

I saw an ad earlier for a working GSD pup from titled, health tested parents, the sire has been to the world championships and his father was world champion a few years back. The female is by a dog who was in the world top ten, amongst other accomplishments...for £950.


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## Amymay (17 March 2018)

That's not been my experience of them CC. Happy, great confident temperaments and bouncy characters. Not reactive or nervous in the slightest.


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## Clodagh (17 March 2018)

I'm with CC. All the ones round here - who, to be fair are mainly related as a woman in the next town has many litters of them - are all bonkers, untrainable, reactive, yappy and have to be shaved every four weeks. A pure bred spaniel or pooidle would no doubt be easier, or no more difficult.
I am sure there are some nice ones, but as with any mutts it is pure luck that gives you a nice offpsring, rather than planning.


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## CorvusCorax (17 March 2018)

Like I say, I appreciate there are regional differences but it's a symptom of a wider problem of breeding for looks or trends and not health and temperament, in both crossbreeds and pedigree dogs.


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## dreamcometrue (17 March 2018)

We have one.  He is a fantastic, well behaved cuddly dog.  We have always had pedigree dogs in the past but heard such good things about the temperament of Cocker x Poodle that when our lovely Springer passed away we decided to get one.


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## ester (17 March 2018)

They look cute

the photos of the matting on groomers pages would be enough to put me off though


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## Cinnamontoast (17 March 2018)

Like CC, we must have one breeder churning them out. The groomers at my yard have streams of cockapoos with overshot jaws. Looks horrendous. 

I don&#8217;t get why people say the cockatoo temperament is good. Surely you can put together any two nice dogs and get-mostly-nice temperaments in the puppy. I gather the dam is key, obviously, as the pups spend time with and learn from her. Isn&#8217;t this why you&#8217;re meant o see the dam with the pups (also trying to avoid puppy farming)?

There was a cockatoo breeder on mumsnet defending her breeding of them. I asked why she&#8217;d chosen to breed that particular cross. Funnily enough, she didn&#8217;t answer. Must be something to do with someone mentioning bandwagon and money. :rolleyes3:


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## CorvusCorax (17 March 2018)

cinnamontoast said:



			I gather the dam is key, obviously, as the pups spend time with and learn from her. Isn&#8217;t this why you&#8217;re meant o see the dam with the pups (also trying to avoid puppy farming)?
		
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Yes and no. The dam is probably the biggest influence but the grandparents, great grandparents and further back can have an impact. I have seen how one just dog can impact future generations down through the years, for good or ill. And that's in a pedigree that's written down :/


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## Crugeran Celt (17 March 2018)

I have no problem with cross breeds, I have an amazing springer  x collie that has been a complete joy to own but she cost me £30 just to cover the cost of her keep and her first jab. I just don't get the extortionate prices people are willing to pay for them and they seem to be getting more and more expensive.  Spoke  to a man this week who was walking a very pretty little dog that jumped up at me so I made a fuss of him, asked owner what he was as never seen one before,  his answer ' not sure but he cost me £500'!!  Nuts.


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## Crugeran Celt (17 March 2018)

I am also surprised that they gave good temperaments as most cocker spaniels I have come across tend to be yapping and not great with other dogs and only ever met one poodle and it bit me as I walked past it!


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## Crugeran Celt (17 March 2018)

CorvusCorax said:



			*BING BONG*
Customer service colleague to aisle two please, canned goods department, worm section.
*BING BONG*
		
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Am I missing something here? I don't understand this post


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## CorvusCorax (17 March 2018)

Worms. Can of. Open. Everywhere.


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## oldie48 (18 March 2018)

I've met some lovely cockerpoos, labradoodles, maltipoos etc I honestly can't see a problem in breeding from good bitches and dogs, provided that are both health tested and have good temperaments. If people are happy to pay lots of money for them and make sensible checks on who they buy from, surely that's fine? I predict that some of these cross breeds will be recognised as breeds in their own right in the future.


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## ycbm (18 March 2018)

TGM said:



			The trouble is most people want dogs just as pets, they are not concerned with having papers for breeding or showing.  So many pedigree breeders have succumbed to breeding exaggerated features for the show ring that they have frightened the average pet dog owner away.  So they opt for the cross bred instead, particularly if bred by someone they know.  I know a lot of pedigree breeders are now doing health testing, but customer confidence has been badly eroded and will take time to rebuild.
		
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oldie48 said:



			I've met some lovely cockerpoos, labradoodles, maltipoos etc I honestly can't see a problem in breeding from good bitches and dogs, provided that are both health tested and have good temperaments. If people are happy to pay lots of money for them and make sensible checks on who they buy from, surely that's fine? I predict that some of these cross breeds will be recognised as breeds in their own right in the future.
		
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Completely with you both. Puppy farming needs better control,  but the cross breeds are not the issue as 'purebreds' are also farmed.  Cocker Poos that are immediately recognisable as Cocker Poos are my childhood dream 'teddy bear come alive' dog. 




Is there a pedigree breed with the same looks, size, joie de vivre, activity level?  I'm not up on all pedigree dog breeds but I don't know one. Surely these dogs were bred in the first place because the equivalent pedigree breed didn't exist or couldn't be bought?  If there is an equivalent breed, how easy is it to actually find a reputable breeder and get hold of a puppy?


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## Clodagh (18 March 2018)

oldie48 said:



			I've met some lovely cockerpoos, labradoodles, maltipoos etc I honestly can't see a problem in breeding from good bitches and dogs, provided that are both health tested and have good temperaments. If people are happy to pay lots of money for them and make sensible checks on who they buy from, surely that's fine? I predict that some of these cross breeds will be recognised as breeds in their own right in the future.
		
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I agree with tihs. BUT I am yet to see any health tested cross breeds? They may be out there.


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## CorvusCorax (18 March 2018)

ycbm said:



			Completely with you both. Puppy farming needs better control,  but the cross breeds are not the issue as 'purebreds' are also farmed.  Cocker Poos that are immediately recognisable as Cocker Poos are my childhood dream 'teddy bear come alive' dog. 




Is there a pedigree breed with the same looks, size, joie de vivre, activity level?  I'm not up on all pedigree dog breeds but I don't know one. Surely these dogs were bred in the first place because the equivalent pedigree breed didn't exist or couldn't be bought?  If there is an equivalent breed, how easy is it to actually find a reputable breeder and get hold of a puppy?
		
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There are hundreds. People could, you know, just do some research, and wait. The all-pervasive 'I want this, and I want it now' is another big issue. A lot of people read more reviews and do more research into a mobile phone than a pet that's going to live in their house for a decade or more.
Or they could get a perfectly reasonable pet dog from mixed parentage from someone that isn't going to charge the earth. Less of a cool story to tell people though.

Breeding dogs to look like 'teddy bears' or 'wolves' with no thought for health or temperament? I think teddies would be a better option all round TBH.


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## DabDab (18 March 2018)

TGM said:



			The trouble is most people want dogs just as pets, they are not concerned with having papers for breeding or showing.  So many pedigree breeders have succumbed to breeding exaggerated features for the show ring that they have frightened the average pet dog owner away.  So they opt for the cross bred instead, particularly if bred by someone they know.  I know a lot of pedigree breeders are now doing health testing, but customer confidence has been badly eroded and will take time to rebuild.
		
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Completely agree. The whole dog showing world has become an elitist oddity that the average person can't relate to. Then along came these cross breeds who were being marketed as being bred specifically for family life, so of course people went mad for them.

Of course it's nonsense that they have better temperaments than purebreds, but it's all about perception


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## DabDab (18 March 2018)

YCBM - the purebred fun Teddy bear dog with joie de vivre you're after is a Westie


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## ycbm (18 March 2018)

I've had a Westie. They are nothing like.


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## ycbm (18 March 2018)

CorvusCorax said:



			There are hundreds
		
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So tell me a few. 





			Breeding dogs to look like 'teddy bears' or 'wolves' with no thought for health or temperament?
		
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No-one is suggesting this.  And it really doesn't help the argument of breeders of pedigree dogs to talk as if they are the only people in the country  who are capable of breeding healthy dogs.

In-breeding and very selective breeding programs of the past are, after all, what has made it necessary to have health testing in the first place.  And it hasn't stopped, has it?  We had a dachshund breeder recently on the forum tell us that one in FOUR dachshunds will suffer back issues that are life changing.  Is it ethical to continue the breed if there are such problems with it?


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## Tinkerbee (18 March 2018)

It does seem a bit mad but then I think the cockerpoos etc do fill a certain niche. I paid for a crossbreed because none of the rescues around me would approve us on a home visit (large 2 acre garden, but not fenced to six foot all the way round) and I wanted a scruffy little terrier but couldn't afford/can't justify the prices being charged for Border Terriers. *flings even more worms around*


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## DabDab (18 March 2018)

ycbm said:



			I've had a Westie. They are nothing like.
		
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Looks and is cuddly like a Teddy bear.... Tick
Joie de vivre... Definite tick
Energetic.... Tick

That was your whole spec. I've never owned a cockerpoo but have had quite a bit to do with a few and do agree that (the ones I have met) are lovely dogs with a certain something about them. My JRT x is probably much more that kind of temperament but she doesnt look like a Teddy bear and moults everywhere. She is what I would describe as the perfect family dog though (despite being a cross breed, probably irresponsibly bred with unknown parentage ), in that she loves and is very tolerant of children, is fun, easy, appropriately sized, very trainable, never a health complaint in sight....


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## ycbm (18 March 2018)

No it wasn't my whole spec   Size.

But I would also add thicker hairs for coat is not as strokeable or cuddly, sharp ears give a totally different look to the face, short legs change the athletic ability, white coat is a nightmare for yellow brown staining, etc. They are nothing like Cocker Poos if a cocker poo is what you want.


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## ester (18 March 2018)

oldie48 said:



			I've met some lovely cockerpoos, labradoodles, maltipoos etc I honestly can't see a problem in breeding from good bitches and dogs, provided that are both health tested and have good temperaments. If people are happy to pay lots of money for them and make sensible checks on who they buy from, surely that's fine? I predict that some of these cross breeds will be recognised as breeds in their own right in the future.
		
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It is so incredibly rare to see pups from health tested parents though .


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## Clodagh (18 March 2018)

I think if a cockerpoo is what you want, as long as you would be equally happy with either a poodle or a pure bred cocker (as you could get either extreme). Find out if the parent was a show or working cocker, as they are very different. If they are want you want, get one, but be prepared to pay £1000. Good luck with health tests (although I have to keep a bit schtum here as my latest spaniel has no pedigree and no tests). Be careful that they really are being bred in a family type home and be happy with high grooming costs and get one. I admit I am not a fan but I don't like hypo or neurotic dogs generally, I am not a fan of terriers either for the same reason.
There is something for everyone out there.


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## CorvusCorax (18 March 2018)

ycbm said:



			So tell me a few. 




No-one is suggesting this.  And it really doesn't help the argument of breeders of pedigree dogs to talk as if they are the only people in the country  who are capable of breeding healthy dogs.

In-breeding and very selective breeding programs of the past are, after all, what has made it necessary to have health testing in the first place.  And it hasn't stopped, has it?  We had a dachshund breeder recently on the forum tell us that one in FOUR dachshunds will suffer back issues that are life changing.  Is it ethical to continue the breed if there are such problems with it?
		
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You like Google, use it. 
I've never bred a litter, I'm not a breeder.

I do know some dachshund breeders and they breed healthy, long-lived stock, again, appreciate again that it may be a regional difference. In Germany there are plenty of working Dachshunds.


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## Clodagh (18 March 2018)

CC - they are teckels though, are they not? I  really like them.


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## {97702} (18 March 2018)

ycbm said:



			Is there a pedigree breed with the same looks, size, joie de vivre, activity level?  I'm not up on all pedigree dog breeds but I don't know one. Surely these dogs were bred in the first place because the equivalent pedigree breed didn't exist or couldn't be bought?  If there is an equivalent breed, how easy is it to actually find a reputable breeder and get hold of a puppy?
		
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Cavalier


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## Clodagh (18 March 2018)

Lévrier;13743407 said:
			
		


			Cavalier
		
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They really aren't though - at least I have never met a cavvie with the energy levels of a cockerpoo. I would probably rather a cavvie, but I don't see that you can suggest them as being comparable.


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## ycbm (18 March 2018)

CorvusCorax said:



			You like Google, use it. 
.
		
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But how do you even start. There are thousands of breeds. 'Pedigree dog like a cocker poo' ?   All that would get anyone is cocker poo adverts.

If the very people who say others should not be buying these cross breeds can't name a suitable alternative, very similar, pedigree bred dog,   then, really, what right have you to criticise people who are just buying an available and well marketed dog that they like and are prepared to pay for?

I'm still genuinely interested if anyone can name a pedigree breed that has all the characteristics, physical and behavioural, of a dog which is clearly a cocker poo. Because at the moment it's my belief that these dogs have been developed because the breed either doesn't exist or is difficult to source.

On looks, for example,  I might suggest spinone for a labradoodle but they seem rare and I have no idea of their temperament.


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## ycbm (18 March 2018)

Lévrier;13743407 said:
			
		


			Cavalier
		
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Doesn't work for me, sorry. Size, (though some are big!)  straight coat, wrong eyes, energy levels.


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## CorvusCorax (18 March 2018)

Do you want me to tell you how to use Google?


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## ester (18 March 2018)

What is wrong with either a poodle or a cocker? Plenty of energy, floppy ears, cute,  soft coats  

It's hard to tell which sort of cockerpoo you are talking about as there are different cocker types, and different coat types resulting from the cross, some look like poodles, some look like scruffy terriers and some look like something inbetween and tend to matt to hell.


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## {97702} (18 March 2018)

Clodagh said:



			They really aren't though - at least I have never met a cavvie with the energy levels of a cockerpoo. I would probably rather a cavvie, but I don't see that you can suggest them as being comparable.
		
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I have known hundreds of cavaliers - if you treat them as proper dogs, not fluffy teddy bears, they are incredibly active and outgoing little souls.  Granted they don't have the manic energy of a cocker (thankfully I dont know anyone with a 'cockerpoo') but that is a benefit for me


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## ycbm (18 March 2018)

CorvusCorax said:



			Do you want me to tell you how to use Google?
		
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No. I want you to tell me why I should sift through thousands of descriptions of dog breeds and search high and low for an available puppy,  rather than buy the delightful puppy down the road that is all I ever wanted in a dog. 

I'm not in the market for a dog, but that's what buyers want and markets supply what buyers want.


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## DabDab (18 March 2018)

Obviously not in the teddy bear looks department, but I would probably say Australian shepherd for your enhanced spec 

(nothing to do with the validity of cross breeds you understand, I just like suggesting dog breeds )


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## ycbm (18 March 2018)

DabDab said:



			Obviously not in the teddy bear looks department, but I would probably say Australian shepherd for your enhanced spec 

(nothing to do with the validity of cross breeds you understand, I just like suggesting dog breeds )
		
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Oh you're close there, I love them, especially the merles.  Lots around me here. Not one of them registered.

Now, name me a breed that doesn't bring dirt into the house when you live on a farm, and Bob's your uncle, I'm there with my credit card


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## CorvusCorax (18 March 2018)

Right, go down the road and drop a grand on a crossbreed then 
I'll spend the rest of my day helping people with their impulse purchases


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## DabDab (18 March 2018)

Lévrier;13743427 said:
			
		


			I have known hundreds of cavaliers - if you treat them as proper dogs, not fluffy teddy bears, they are incredibly active and outgoing little souls.  Granted they don't have the manic energy of a cocker (thankfully I dont know anyone with a 'cockerpoo') but that is a benefit for me 

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Yes I'm similar - I absolutely adore cockers but would struggle to have the insane frenetic energy in my life all the time


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## {97702} (18 March 2018)

ycbm said:



			I'm still genuinely interested if anyone can name a pedigree breed that has all the characteristics, physical and behavioural, of a dog which is clearly a cocker poo. Because at the moment it's my belief that these dogs have been developed because the breed either doesn't exist or is difficult to source.
		
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There is no such dog as one that is "clearly a cocker poo" - they are cross breds, and as a result every one bred will inherit different aspects of the parents.  Therefore it is impossible to know what you are talking about and recommend an equivalent.

It does sound like you don't seem to know much about pedigree dogs, so I'm guessing you wouldn't actually know whether they were equivalent or not?


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## ycbm (18 March 2018)

CorvusCorax said:



			Right, go down the road and drop a grand on a crossbreed then 
I'll spend the rest of my day helping people with their impulse purchases 

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Personally, I'd poke hot needles in my eyes before you'd find me spending more than £50 on acquiring a house animal


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## Clodagh (18 March 2018)

DabDab said:



			Yes I'm similar - I absolutely adore cockers but would struggle to have the insane frenetic energy in my life all the time 

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Same - much as a cocker would have been preferable size wise than a springer I just can't cope with the total madness. They always look to have been on the blue smarties.


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## MurphysMinder (18 March 2018)

[




Is there a pedigree breed with the same looks, size, joie de vivre, activity level?  I'm not up on all pedigree dog breeds but I don't know one. Surely these dogs were bred in the first place because the equivalent pedigree breed didn't exist or couldn't be bought?  If there is an equivalent breed, how easy is it to actually find a reputable breeder and get hold of a puppy?[/QUO

But part of the problem with "cockerpoos" etc is that you can't guarantee what they will look like.   I see quite a lot of cockerpoos at agility (often rehomes as they were too high energy for previous owners).   Some run in small category and some in medium,  some have curly coats,  some have coarser wire coats etc.   There is not one definite guaranteed type.


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## ycbm (18 March 2018)

Lévrier;13743435 said:
			
		


			There is no such dog as one that is "clearly a cocker poo" - they are cross breds, and as a result every one bred will inherit different aspects of the parents.  Therefore it is impossible to know what you are talking about and recommend an equivalent.
		
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Yes, there is. And that is why I wrote it as I did. 

In any litter there may be a variety which take more to one parent or the other. But there are many dogs where you take one look, ask the owner if it's a cocker poo, and not once have I yet been told that it's not a cocker poo. There is a unmistakable look about the 'right'  50/50 ones.

Like a poster above, I expect cocker poos to be bred to cocker poos in future and eventually become every bit as much a breed I their own right as any other breed, since all breeds started of the same way.


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## {97702} (18 March 2018)

Clodagh said:



			Same - much as a cocker would have been preferable size wise than a springer I just can't cope with the total madness. They always look to have been on the blue smarties.
		
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My sister's cocker is hyper - it fits CC's description further up the thread, it yaps hysterically at every other dog it passes on a walk, it is completely neurotic, and can't socialise with other dogs because it is defensive aggressive....


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## Dopeydapple (18 March 2018)

I would suggest a Wheaton terrier as a pedigree alternative to a cockerpoo but actually don't have an issue with creating new Cross breeds, after all today's pedigrees were created by mixing other breeds originally so I don't think it will be long before the cockerpoo has enough of a gene pool that it can start breeding true to type and become an official breed. The issue isn't 1 of whether it's right to breed mixed breeds it's whether breeders are breeding ethically and this applies to pedigree breeders too. Whilst I think it's crazy to pay £1000 for a mongrel a dog is worth whatever someone is willing to pay for it but more education is needed for pet owners regards health tests etc. My in laws went 350 miles to get their cockerpoo and thought that as both parents were kc registered and they saw their full pedigrees that this was them doing due diligence and made the dog worth £900. However no health tests have been done and the bitch has had 2 litters a year for the past 3 years!


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## MurphysMinder (18 March 2018)

Hopefully this will work,  just a few of the different types of cockerpoo

http://www.cockapooclubgb.co.uk/adults.html


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## {97702} (18 March 2018)

ycbm said:



			Yes, there is. And that is why I wrote it as I did. 

In any litter there may be a variety which take more to one parent or the other. But there are many dogs where you take one look, ask the owner if it's a cocker poo, and not once have I yet been told that it's not a cocker poo. There is a unmistakable look about the 'right'  50/50 ones.

Like a poster above, I expect cocker poos to be bred to cocker poos in future and eventually become every bit as much a breed I their own right as any other breed, since all breeds started of the same way.
		
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Yep.... a clear type.....


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## ester (18 March 2018)

but actually if you cross F1s you usually get more variation than you do breeding cockers and poodles, which is why most people stick to breeding the latter so it is hard for them to become a standardised breed if that is the effect. 

Have you a pic of this perfect 50:50 dog? and from what cross, show/working/american cocker? as they are all used, mini or toy poodle for your size?


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## Clodagh (18 March 2018)

Lévrier;13743445 said:
			
		


			My sister's cocker is hyper - it fits CC's description further up the thread, it yaps hysterically at every other dog it passes on a walk, it is completely neurotic, and can't socialise with other dogs because it is defensive aggressive....
		
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Yes, that is how I perceive all show cockers, although they are pretty. TBH I only see working ones and they are social and hopefully mute, but still totally mad, I get tired watching them!
If I had to have one CP parent it would be a poodle, I like them, but the minis are too yappy and emotional, the standards seem nicer. So that would be too big, anyway...sigh!


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## DabDab (18 March 2018)

These are more poodley


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## Clodagh (18 March 2018)

Every cockerpoo bar one I have met has looked like this...





Any variations have only been as much as you see in any breed.
The bar one still looked more like a CP than the two images you put up, Lev, so I think you are propaganderising the debate!


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## ycbm (18 March 2018)

Lévrier;13743453 said:
			
		




















Yep.... a clear type.....
		
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Lev I have already said that there is variation  in a litter. What is the point of this discussion if you pick on stuff that I actually said before you?

In my area, there are many dogs which are unmistakably cocker poo. They are delightful.


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## ycbm (18 March 2018)

Clodagh said:



			Every cockerpoo bar one I have met has looked like this...





Any variations have only been as much as you see in any breed.
The bar one still looked more like a CP than the two images you put up, Lev, so I think you are propaganderising the debate!
		
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That's it. Smashing little dog


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## ester (18 March 2018)

So what types are they breeding round your way, originating breeds and coat?


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## Shady (18 March 2018)

My sister in law has just bought a Cockerpoo from Preloved for £850, runt of the litter, no papers , no idea of the health of either parents or how many litters the bitch has had and this was from somebody who apparently 'rescues' them. I just don't understand where it's all going nowadays,.I'm not opposed to crossbreeding    but some of the mixes are just WRONG 
 I saw an advert for Huskavana's , a mix of Weimaraner and Husky for £1000, i couldn't believe anybody would think this is a good mix and another for Weimardoodle's, a mix of Weim and Pooodle. Mother of god they looked diseased, really horrible with none of the grace of either breed . As a Weim owner i don't think they should  be crossed with anything, there are traits in the breed that are unique to them and make them what they are . Mixing anything just lessons them in my eyes as i'm sure it does in other breeds too


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## ycbm (18 March 2018)

ester said:



			So what types are they breeding round your way, originating breeds and coat?
		
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Why do you even expect me to know the answer to that question Ester?  I'm not in the market for a dog, their parentage doesn't concern me at present. Why do you want to know the answer to that question? It reads like a challenge, but that isn't really like you and I think maybe I misreading your tone? Whatever, I can't tell you.


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## {97702} (18 March 2018)

Clodagh said:



			Every cockerpoo bar one I have met has looked like this...





Any variations have only been as much as you see in any breed.
The bar one still looked more like a CP than the two images you put up, Lev, so I think you are propaganderising the debate!
		
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I simply googled cockerpoo and put up two of the images that came up - I think they are horrid little dogs personally now I've seen some pics


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## Meowy Catkin (18 March 2018)

Where I rode as a child, the riding school owner had the most lovely short haired black and tan mongrels. They were such super dogs, medium sized with fantastic temperaments. I used to see lots of black and tan mongrels back then and they really aren't as common now, which is a shame.


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## ester (18 March 2018)

ycbm said:



			Why do you even expect me to know the answer to that question Ester?  I'm not in the market for a dog, their parentage doesn't concern me at present. Why do you want to know the answer to that question? It reads like a challenge, but that isn't really like you and I think maybe I misreading your tone? Whatever, I can't tell you.
		
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Of course it isn't a challenge, I asked previously what for you is the perfect 50:50 but you didn't answer that (and I assume you consider the ones you have spotted to be so) because if we don't know that how can people suggest alternatives and the same goes for the parentage. You are going to get a very different energy dog if you are using a working or a show or american cocker, and a different size dog if you are using a toy or a mini poodle. I am only trying to ascertain more what you would want out of this theoretical dog to see if a suitable pedigree alternative existed.


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## DabDab (18 March 2018)

I actually think that labradoodles have a much more consistent type


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## TGM (18 March 2018)

To be honest, if someone is going to pay a lot of money for a pup I would rather they spent it on a labradoodle or a cockapoo than on one of the brachycephalic breeds that can't breathe properly.   Although it would be far more sensible, and cheaper, to buy a whippet 

I must say the only adult cockapoo that I know looks like the picture posted by Clodagh and the owner absolutely adores it and has found him easier than the pure golden retrievers they had previously.


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## ycbm (18 March 2018)

ester said:



			Of course it isn't a challenge, I asked previously what for you is the perfect 50:50 but you didn't answer that (and I assume you consider the ones you have spotted to be so) because if we don't know that how can people suggest alternatives and the same goes for the parentage. You are going to get a very different energy dog if you are using a working or a show or american cocker, and a different size dog if you are using a toy or a mini poodle. I am only trying to ascertain more what you would want out of this theoretical dog to see if a suitable pedigree alternative existed.
		
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I get you, your analytical mind of course 


Like Clodagh's picture but adult of course, size of a smallish cocker, you can easily carry it in two arms.


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## Clodagh (18 March 2018)

Lévrier;13743477 said:
			
		


			I simply googled cockerpoo and put up two of the images that came up - I think they are horrid little dogs personally now I've seen some pics
		
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No such thing as a horrid little dog, that is a bit sweeping! I know you get individuals of breeds (or mutts) that are horrid but I wouldn't ever say all (whatevers) are horrid.


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## MotherOfChickens (18 March 2018)

cockerpoos can be pretty cute although personally, if I were signing myself up for that sort of grooming commitment I'd always go for a poodle-they are fab dogs. cockerpoos don't seem to be easy dogs in the puppy stages-trainer says they are currently her bread and butter. many people go for energy levels in a breed that they can't cope with in the long run and most new dog owners don't realise that they are pretty much taking on a toddler for the next 10 years or so.

Of the couple I know, both were bought from (different) breeders that could no longer get registered litters from the dams, both came with multiple bacterial infections that cost a packet and took a fair amount of time to get sorted out, both suffer from SA, both were hard to house train, both were on special diets from about 8 months old, both have skin allergies and both need professional grooming every 6 weeks or so. 

my two dogs are the same age, have had some anal gland issues in one and the other (who is as about as highly bred a show dog as they come)  has had no issues and is of a very healthy breed. both came from health tested parents, both sets of parents had proven working track record/trainability/success and longterm soundness, I met both sets of parents and both cost less than the cockerpoos that I know.

of the other dogs at work about the same age, the labrador is fine, the Lapphund is fine, the Dachs is fine and the Vizla is fine physically but has been a nightmare behaviourally but I have thoughts on that one  (see energy levels plus 3 young boys on the house).

I like a good mutt, they are just hard to find these days and these crosses dont fit the bill for me as nothing about them seems worth it wrt to trainability, good health or temperament. A lot of them make cute puppies but can look fairly hideous when they grow up (Puggles, Jugs etc).


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## {97702} (18 March 2018)

Clodagh said:



			No such thing as a horrid little dog, that is a bit sweeping! I know you get individuals of breeds (or mutts) that are horrid but I wouldn't ever say all (whatevers) are horrid.
		
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In that case we shall differ on that one   I have never met a Yorkshire Terrier or a Chihuahua that I liked, so they come into that category for me as well - I am sure their owners love them, and I am sure there are people who look at greyhounds and think they are skinny weird things  ,  but some breeds (or crosses) simply dont do it for me and this cross-breed is one of them


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## splashgirl45 (18 March 2018)

i have no problem with crossbreeds, i have a collie cross and a terrier cross myself.....we have quite a few cockerpoos and labradoodles in our area and the ones that are exercised properly( ie long walks, plenty of off,lead galloping about and socialising) are mostly fine, but there are quite a few that are walked for half an hour on the lead, are reactive to other dogs and are a handful to their obviously novice owners.  i think the problem is more with the owner than the dog as these crosses have been widely marketed as family dogs and people are not giving them enough exercise or training..it really is a shame that people dont have to take a dog handling test before being allowed to buy any puppy....


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## Cinnamontoast (18 March 2018)

oldie48 said:



			I've met some lovely cockerpoos, labradoodles, maltipoos etc I honestly can't see a problem in breeding from good bitches and dogs, provided that are both health tested and have good temperaments. If people are happy to pay lots of money for them and make sensible checks on who they buy from, surely that's fine? I predict that some of these cross breeds will be recognised as breeds in their own right in the future.
		
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Its happening, for sure. Check out the Eurasier on Crufts. I think its better looking with superior conformation to the chow. Its like a ginger larger Keeshond, gorgeous! There was another breed in developement on Crufts, something curly, grey, foreign, terrier like. Cant remember. 



Clodagh said:



			I agree with tihs. BUT I am yet to see any health tested cross breeds? They may be out there.
		
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For sure. On petforums, theres a poster whos crazy keen breeding fully health tested cockapoos. Theres a U.K cockapoo society and you have to health test to be part of it. The whole crossing for the sake of it is just annoying, tho. If you want a teddy bear dog, there are definitely options. Health testing is key, IMO, and not believing the hype that ALL cockapoos have nice temperaments and dont shed. Its just untrue. 



TGM said:



			To be honest, if someone is going to pay a lot of money for a pup I would rather they spent it on a labradoodle or a cockapoo than on one of the brachycephalic breeds that can't breathe properly.
		
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I have to agree and would go so far as to say that out crossing should be done for all brachycephalic breeds. I was so sad to be handed a 15 week old English bulldog puppy for cuddles this week. It was, of course, adorable, but was already snuffling and not breathing normally. Its just heart breaking.

Re those saying cockers are too crazy, I have yet to meet a nutty one. A friend has 2 springers, 2 cockers, none of whom are remotely crazy. They are properly exercised and stimulated, the owner is a gun dog trainer. Same as people gasping when I tell them I have 3 springers. The three are currently snoring having been out for a short walk today. Theyre no bother at home bar Zak nicking the odd shoe and wanting to play tug some evenings.


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## oldie48 (18 March 2018)

ester said:



			It is so incredibly rare to see pups from health tested parents though .
		
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I don't know what evidence you have for saying this but wouldn't it be true of most cross breeds? Cockerpoos have been bred since the 50's so they are nothing new and having had a quick look at a few ads, I think many of them are responsibly bred, hence the price. Buyer beware woud be my advice, just the same as when you buy any dog.


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## ester (18 March 2018)

Mostly asking people, perhaps it depends on area. I get quite excited when I see an ad with health tested parents but the price doesn't seem to drop for those that aren't. 

I'm aware cockapoos have been around for quite a while, which is why I find it odd that people say they will become a registered breed when most of them are still F1 crosses.


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## oldie48 (18 March 2018)

splashgirl45 said:



			i have no problem with crossbreeds, i have a collie cross and a terrier cross myself.....we have quite a few cockerpoos and labradoodles in our area and the ones that are exercised properly( ie long walks, plenty of off,lead galloping about and socialising) are mostly fine, but there are quite a few that are walked for half an hour on the lead, are reactive to other dogs and are a handful to their obviously novice owners.  i think the problem is more with the owner than the dog as these crosses have been widely marketed as family dogs and people are not giving them enough exercise or training..it really is a shame that people dont have to take a dog handling test before being allowed to buy any puppy....
		
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Wish there was a "like" button!


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## minesadouble (18 March 2018)

In my area cockapoos come in a wild variety of forms, to the point I wouldn&#8217;t recognise one if it came and bit me in the face - which according to my dog groomer daughter - is a distinct possibility


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## gunnergundog (18 March 2018)

ycbm said:



			I'm still genuinely interested if anyone can name a pedigree breed that has all the characteristics, physical and behavioural, of a dog which is clearly a cocker poo. Because at the moment it's my belief that these dogs have been developed because the breed either doesn't exist or is difficult to source.
		
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Spanish Water Dog 
Two litters currently on Champdogs and one on Pets4Homes
Energetic gundog.

Also, possibly the Barbet or Portugese Water dog.


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## druid (18 March 2018)

Lagotto Romagnolo - Italian "spaniel" which look identical to many of the Lab x Poodle types


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## Crugeran Celt (18 March 2018)

Something I never thought off before with these crosses but what happens when people start breeding from them. I assumed that they were 50/50 crosses but it appears breeders are also breeding form the cross breeds.  Do they put a cockerpoo to a poodle or cocker spaniel or to another cockerpoo.  As I said no problem with crossbreeding but all the ones I see for sale are being bred by people who happen to have a nice dog who know another person with a nice dog so breed from them. Not sure there is much thought being put into health checks.


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## oldie48 (18 March 2018)

druid said:



			Lagotto Romagnolo - Italian "spaniel" which look identical to many of the Lab x Poodle types
		
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At £1600 average for a KC reg pup, they are not cheap and currently none for sale in this country that I can see. I think they are at least as high energy as a cockerpoo, if not more and certainly not a first time owners dog. I can see the appeal though.


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## ester (18 March 2018)

CC it depends, F1 is cocker x poodle, 
F1b is and F1 bred back to one of the parent breeds (I think the breed back to a poodle is more frequent that to the spaniel in trying to get a non-shedding coat). 
F2 is two F1s bred together, etc.


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## ycbm (18 March 2018)

gunnergundog said:



			Portugese Water dog.
		
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Barack Obama's dog?   I love that. Looked a bit bigger than a cocker poo, but very much the same type to look at.  Also non shedding aren't they?


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## Cinnamontoast (18 March 2018)

gunnergundog said:



			Spanish Water Dog 
Two litters currently on Champdogs and one on Pets4Homes
Energetic gundog
		
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Looking at pictures, they really do look like cockapoos!


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## druid (18 March 2018)

oldie48 said:



			At £1600 average for a KC reg pup, they are not cheap and currently none for sale in this country that I can see. I think they are at least as high energy as a cockerpoo, if not more and certainly not a first time owners dog. I can see the appeal though.
		
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I've trained two, much better off switch than a Cockerwotsit and both cost less than half what you suggest, Cocker x and Poodle x breeds were rare here in their early days. The popularity of breeds and their availability is all dictated by fashion


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## KittenInTheTree (18 March 2018)

TBH labradoodles often remind me of otterhounds appearance wise, only smaller.


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## MotherOfChickens (18 March 2018)

KittenInTheTree said:



			TBH labradoodles often remind me of otterhounds appearance wise, only smaller.
		
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have never seen one look as appealing as an otterhound!


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## CorvusCorax (18 March 2018)

Or a Curly Coat Retriever or an Irish Water Spaniel or a Soft Coated Wheaten Terrier, all native breeds to these islands which aren't trendy.

Small teddy bear types could include Havanese, Maltese, Bichon Frise, Pomeranian, Papillon/Phalene, Chinese Crested Powder Puff, Coton de Tulear, Pembroke Corgi etc etc etc.


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## KittenInTheTree (18 March 2018)

MotherOfChickens said:



			have never seen one look as appealing as an otterhound!
		
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I said they remind me of them, not that they're a perfect replica


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## gunnergundog (18 March 2018)

ycbm said:



			Barack Obama's dog?   I love that. Looked a bit bigger than a cocker poo, but very much the same type to look at.  Also non shedding aren't they?
		
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Depends what type of cockerpoo you are comparing them to....as in what size poo was used in the creation of said mutt!  
Also, the Spanish variant is smaller - minimum height being 15.5 inches as opposed to the minimum 17.5 inches of the Portugese version.

And yes, non-shedding............allegedly (both of them, according to the KC.)


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## skinnydipper (18 March 2018)

Firstly let me say I am not a dog snob.  I have had some fantastic mutts of indeterminate parentage.  I have also had pedigree dogs with severe health problems.  All but one of my dogs have been rescues.

I used to meet a very nice chap who was extremely proud of his Australian Labradoodle bred in Wales.  He paid £2000 a few years ago and felt it was money well spent but even he joked that he had paid £2000 for a mongrel. 

He had done a lot of homework before buying from this breeder.  The parents are thoroughly health tested.  Pups are now selling from between £2000 and £3000.

Incidentally, the pup was already neutered when he got him.  I am not sure but I think all the pups are spayed/neutered pre adoption. (I am totally against early spay/neuter for reasons I won't go into here).  I did not meet him as a pup. Early neuter had not made him anxious - very confident, assertive dog (bit of a bully) who totally ignored his devoted owner's recall.  

I thought it was a ridiculous amount for a cross breed (or any dog come to that) but if someone has the money and that's how they want to spend it then it is their business.

I don't think buying a cross breed can be any more of a gamble than buying a pedigree dog when it comes to health and temperament but don't get me started..... I've got a bit of a bee in my bonnet at the moment about 2 GSD breeders that have come to my notice.

I meet some lovely little Cockerpoos, in fact I haven't met a bad one.  I also meet a long haired Chihuahua, a brilliant little dog who is allowed to be a dog and was perfectly happy round my big girls when they were alive (Saluki X and Greyhound X).  The Cockers I meet, at least 3 of which are working lines in pet homes, are busy but well adjusted dogs and their needs are being met.


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## DabDab (18 March 2018)

Ooo, thought of another one - bearded collie. They are super fun


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## Cinnamontoast (18 March 2018)

DabDab said:



			Ooo, thought of another one - bearded collie. They are super fun
		
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Met two, one attacked Zak who was minding his own business on his lead, no reason for it. Another one who is nervous as hell. I&#8217;m sure they&#8217;re not typical of the breed.


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## CorvusCorax (18 March 2018)

A clipped out Old English Sheepdog (another non trendy native breed) looks Doodly/Poo-y


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## KittenInTheTree (19 March 2018)

CorvusCorax said:



			A clipped out Old English Sheepdog (another non trendy native breed) looks Doodly/Poo-y 

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Bet you don't get told off for making comparisons.

<sulks>


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## MotherOfChickens (19 March 2018)

KittenInTheTree said:



			Bet you don't get told off for making comparisons.

<sulks>
		
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naw, sorry KITT x


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## MotherOfChickens (19 March 2018)

DabDab said:



			Ooo, thought of another one - bearded collie. They are super fun
		
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hmmm, ime quite stressy highly strung dogs -very cute clipped out but can hold eleventy billion gallons of water in a full coat (I had one-Psycho Bob, though tbf he was a rescue).


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## DabDab (19 March 2018)

Interesting - the ones I know are very bouncy and energetic, but very nice people with it....i don't notice them being particularly stressy, but then I don't have to live with them. Though they definitely do have the collie car chasing trait


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## MotherOfChickens (19 March 2018)

DabDab said:



			Though they definitely do have the collie car chasing trait 

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yes they do-from inside a car too lol. He was damaged, not his fault. he was quite bitey.


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## CorvusCorax (19 March 2018)

Stall the wedding here - why are we saying these breeds 'look like' cockerpoos, doodles etc - shouldn't it be the other way around


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## KittenInTheTree (19 March 2018)

CorvusCorax said:



			Stall the wedding here - why are we saying these breeds 'look like' cockerpoos, doodles etc - shouldn't it be the other way around 

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Only if MOC says it's okay   But yes, I think so. Except then we risk making the breeds in question too popular for their own good, so maybe not. But otterhounds are epic and I want more people to know about them so yes. But BYB exist so no...

<conflicted>


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## MotherOfChickens (19 March 2018)

do you haver an otterhound KITT? I've not seen any for so long but back in the 90s  we had a breeder at the vet practice I worked at, they were such friendly lovely dogs (and energetic, soo energetic lol). I actually breifly looked into them when looking at different breeds but figured they were a bit beyond me but yes, totally epic


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## KittenInTheTree (19 March 2018)

MotherOfChickens said:



			do you haver an otterhound KITT? I've not seen any for so long but back in the 90s  we had a breeder at the vet practice I worked at, they were such friendly lovely dogs (and energetic, soo energetic lol). I actually breifly looked into them when looking at different breeds but figured they were a bit beyond me but yes, totally epic 

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Sadly no, MOC. A family friend breeds them and I spend a lot of time telling myself that actually owning one probably wouldn't be practical for us  Gorgeous dogs.


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## Clodagh (19 March 2018)

They really are lovely dogs. Funnily enough my mother did the KC 'What breed' test recently and it suggested an otterhound. For a couple in their 80's, one disabled with no garden I am not sure that would work!


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## Cinnamontoast (20 March 2018)

Otter hounds looks a slightly cuter spinone.


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## MagicMelon (21 March 2018)

I don't understand why cross breeds can't be worth as much as a pedigree (lets face it, a lot of the time they're healthier!).  They could still have been bred from perfectly nice parents. I have a labradoodle who we paid for and she's worth every penny for her temperament alone. She's a truly fantastic mix. Surely the only aim is to produce a really nice natured and healthy dog?

Pure bred horses don't automatically command higher prices than part breds, why on earth do people have such an issue with this with dogs?!


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## Cinnamontoast (21 March 2018)

MagicMelon said:



			I don't understand why cross breeds can't be worth as much as a pedigree (lets face it, a lot of the time they're healthier!).  They could still have been bred from perfectly nice parents. I have a labradoodle who we paid for and she's worth every penny for her temperament alone. She's a truly fantastic mix. Surely the only aim is to produce a really nice natured and healthy dog?
		
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Oh god, I haven&#8217;t seen the hybrid vigour thing mentioned for ages! I thought that myth was exploded? 

A cross breed is no healthier than the pedigree counterpart (I think I&#8217;d make brachy dogs the exception) and could be less healthy if two incompatible breeds are used or if the pedigree version has had health tested parents. Health testing is pretty much the only way forward to improve health of any puppies. 

Obviously, some breed stereotypes have been exaggerated for the show ring and they have a poor reputation and some have hereditary issues eg purine in dallies. Other than that, I don&#8217;t think it&#8217;s fair to say that crosses are always healthier. 

I think rather than making potential laws about puppies having to stay with the dam til 8 weeks, by which time the dam is knackered and has had enough, maybe the law should be to stop breeding because your dog has a uterus and the parents MUST have all the relevant health tests. 

I&#8217;m on a rant, best stop!


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## blackcob (21 March 2018)

cinnamontoast said:



			Health testing is pretty much the only way forward to improve health of any puppies.
		
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Just to play devil's advocate - and don't get me wrong, I am all about the health testing and I only have pedigree(ish) dogs - there's an argument that in a closed gene pool there will come a time that the only way to improve health and avoid catastrophic rates of inbreeding will be to outcross.


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## Cinnamontoast (22 March 2018)

But goes without saying that you&#8217;d be checking the breeding co-efficient if you were bothered about health tests!


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## Moobli (23 March 2018)

blackcob said:



			Just to play devil's advocate - and don't get me wrong, I am all about the health testing and I only have pedigree(ish) dogs - there's an argument that in a closed gene pool there will come a time that the only way to improve health and avoid catastrophic rates of inbreeding will be to outcross.
		
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I am also an advocate for health testing but agree that outcrossing is likely going to be the only way forward in the future due to ever drcreasing gene pools in pedigree dogs.


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## Moobli (23 March 2018)

MagicMelon said:



			I don't understand why cross breeds can't be worth as much as a pedigree (lets face it, a lot of the time they're healthier!).  They could still have been bred from perfectly nice parents. I have a labradoodle who we paid for and she's worth every penny for her temperament alone. She's a truly fantastic mix. Surely the only aim is to produce a really nice natured and healthy dog?

Pure bred horses don't automatically command higher prices than part breds, why on earth do people have such an issue with this with dogs?!
		
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Personally I think everything being equal (health tests, rearing, socialisation, lifetime support etc) there should be no reason why a crossbred puppy should cost (or be worth) less than a pedigree puppy.


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## MotherOfChickens (23 March 2018)

WorkingGSD said:



			Personally I think everything being equal (health tests, rearing, socialisation, lifetime support etc) there should be no reason why a crossbred puppy should cost (or be worth) less than a pedigree puppy.
		
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hmmm. so there's no small recompense (and I don't mean profit per se because I dont believe there is one when you take everything into account) for the training, campaigning, effort (in finding the' right' dogs throughout a breeding program) for someone who's spent years/decades in building up a successful line of proven dogs?


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## Moobli (24 March 2018)

MotherOfChickens said:



			hmmm. so there's no small recompense (and I don't mean profit per se because I dont believe there is one when you take everything into account) for the training, campaigning, effort (in finding the' right' dogs throughout a breeding program) for someone who's spent years/decades in building up a successful line of proven dogs?
		
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The truth is people can charge what they like for their puppies whether they are well established breeders or the person down the street, it is up to the consumer to be discerning (or not) about where they choose to buy a pup from and what price they are prepared to pay.


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## Crugeran Celt (24 March 2018)

If someone had a bitch in season who was a pedegree of any breed and whilst out walking it happened across an entire male dog of a different  breed and inevitably became pregnant would the owner then sell these pups for a lot of money calling them a combined name of both parents? No health checks no guarantee of temperament and this is happening bit people are paying hundreds of pounds for these pups.


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