# Liver problems please read



## Louis (6 March 2013)

How many people have had horses with liver disease since the beginning of 2012. Can you please add how many horses and county! I want to see how bad this is! 

I had 5 in Surrey with a total of nine locally


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## threeponies (6 March 2013)

I had 1 die from liver failure caused by chronic liver damage from  suspected hepatitis- his biopsy showed no signs of poisoning.  He died in June 2010 so possibly not any use to your statistics.  I also have one at the moment with a GGT of 1600(ish) he was last tested last February and is on a restricted diet and doing ok.  At the time my first wee guy was diagnosed I had all 3 of my ponies tested - pony that died had a GGT of 1000+, pony that is now ill was 40 and my other pony was 15.  

My own personal opinion is that the mycotoxins in hay are playing a part in this with my pony, he was tested August 2011 and had a result of 236, then again in February 2012 and he was up to 1600. For the majority of this time he was in at night with a haynet and out through the day in a turnout area with hay, no grazing.

ETA: I'm in the Glasgow area


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## Montyforever (6 March 2013)

Mine has suspected liver problems after having an impaction on Sunday, and the bloods coming back as high liver enzymes. She's being retested on Friday, but she's not been eating anything dodgy just a basic fibre diet so not sure why at all! But all symptoms are pointing towards liver problems right now (more info on my thread if anyone's interested) 

I'm in Kent


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## foxy1 (6 March 2013)

I'm in Kent

Had 4 together on one field, one died, rest were tested, initially came back normal but when same bloods were re-checked the liver enzymes were high. Re-tested 2 weeks later, coming down, 6 weeks later normal.

The one that died had his liver thoroughly examined at post mortem and no cause for liver disease was found.

My friend had two 2012 foals die in November from liver problems, again no cause found. They were in Hampshire.

Another lady who I only 'know' through a group on facebook had 7 young horses affected with liver problems, she first suspected mycotoxins in hay but after expensive testing now suspects something on the land to be the cause. I think she is in Hampshire too.


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## MissTyc (6 March 2013)

I sold one in 2010 who died a few months after of liver failure (7yo gelding)

... and currently have a 2yo on yard with suspected liver "problem" - going to big equine clinic for further investigation 

ETA: in East Sussex


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## MochaDun (6 March 2013)

Could it be that with our climate changing these possible problems with hay etc, increase in grass sickness, EAM etc are resulting from that bigger problem that we can't control effecting grass/land/crops?  I don't know I'm just pondering.


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## Nugget La Poneh (6 March 2013)

Not mine, but there is a pony on the yard that had Liver problems last year spring time, and believe okay now, but had a relapse in Autumn.


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## HappyHooves (6 March 2013)

have pm'd you


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## Maisy (6 March 2013)

My 5 year old had raised enzymes after vaccinations in October....he has had all manner of treatment and is now back to normal (ish!)....

Another of mine was tested for cushings, but I asked the vets to run a full blood screen.  Her GGT (is that it!? or GTT!?) level was 120 when I believe it should be 87.....though not high enough to be concerned.....

ETA I'm in Cambs


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## sam72431 (6 March 2013)

My 5yo has liver damage although not severe only picked up after bloods I also keep hearing more and more of this I'm in West Sussex


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## MrsMagoo (8 March 2013)

I'm in Kent.....currently have my 3 rising 4 yr old gelding with unknown cause of liver diease.  Have already moved yards where he did pick up but results appear to show enzymes have raised again>!


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## Ginger Bear (8 March 2013)

Just out of interest what are the symptoms?? Thanks


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## Monkers (8 March 2013)

I have 7 with raised enzymes. All with very high GGT, One over 3000. Yes that's thousand. Another over 2000, rest in the 100's.
No idea what's wrong, been going on for months. Biopsies on Monday. Mycotoxins all but ruled out. Vet now thinking it's a post viral problem, but the truth is we just don't know.
All horses seem well and you wouldn't know there was an issue with any of them.


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## HappyHooves (9 March 2013)

Monkers, how have they ruled out mycotoxins? Tests for these are so expensive and you would need to test pasture, feed and hay.


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## Rebels (9 March 2013)

Last summer, 11 with a liver virus and next doors pony had severe liver damage signs and improved with rest. Previous year, my young horse collapses through malabsorption from severe ,liver virus, next doors expensive horse  contracts a neurotoxin related stringhalt possibly as a side effect from a sarcoid treatment. Friends horse in village has truly bizarre enzyme levels which are circulated globally to vets as horse should have been dead,  of standing and grazing. Yearling at nearby stud collapses with severe kidney and liver infection. I'm tempted to have my lot wearing face masks when we go anywhere with other horses so they can't catch anything else!


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## flintfootfilly (10 March 2013)

Rebels,

How did the vets confirm the cause as "a liver virus", or was that just their best guess?

Similarly, how did the vets confirm "a neurotoxin related stringhalt"?

And what was the particular enzyme, and enzyme level, which the horse has who should apparently be dead?

Sorry to be pedantic on this, but I do think it's important that we are clear on what were positive diagnoses and what were just a guess at a possible cause.

Thanks,

Sarah


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## Rebels (11 March 2013)

Liver virus diagnosed through bloods both times with mine. When the whole lot had it we has skewed white blood cell count (very high) and high enzymes levels. Vet ran complete blood counts of 3 horses and specific enzyme level tests on the others. She linked the enzyme levels to the protein levels of their diets, concluded there were protein digestion issues and felt it was a virus affecting the liver. For my horse that collapsed he had loads of tests including all the neurological tests and fluid taken from the gut, thousands of blood tests etc which showed other organs to be healthy and the liver to be extremely stressed.
Neurotoxin stringhalt was neighbours horse. The horse had a flat disc sarcoid on his belly. Vet injected what he claimed was a liquid nitrogen      treatment straight into the sarcoid. This then swelled until the lump drooped to hock level. The swelling went down very quickly but the horse showed severe stringhalt symptoms within a week. Vet could only suggest back issue. Horse was then removed abroad to a yard where vet investigated and decided horse showed signs of neurotoxins and treated accordingly. By the end of the day the stringhalt had gone. Foreign vet said that it was a common issue if a certain plant was ingested but that plant doesn't live over here.
Will ask friend about her horses levels. It was sufficent to have a queue of vets waiting to whisk any body away for research. Horse had several liver biopsies too.


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## Kokopelli (11 March 2013)

I've just had the same problem with my horse. He wasn't responding to medication and we couldn't find a cause for his problems. Apprently there has been a huge rise in them lately. We were considering having him pts but vet put him on medicine that helps regenerate red blood cells (I think its all very confusing.) This alongside blood liquid and milk thistle his bloods were getting better each time and now he is back to normal and a may even be able to ride him again soon.


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## Montyforever (11 March 2013)

It's scary how much of this is happening! Had my mares blood test results back today and she's still high  best guess so far is some kind of virus. She's on danilon for the next few days and if when that stops she goes downhill again the vet wants to put her on a liver supplement and have her retested in a month. 
Would just like to know the cause at the moment, and which way is forward


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## Mudfukkle (11 March 2013)

Both of mine had raised liver enzyme levels on their annual health check last year.

I consulted a very good nutritionalist and was advised to stop feeding Alfalfa of any kind in chop, so switched to Ready Grass or Grazeon (dried grass) asa this is easier for the liver to digest.

This year, their levels are back to normal, so will continue to exclude Alfalfa, although cushings horse cannot now have the grass due to laminitis.


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## Kokopelli (11 March 2013)

I've been told a possible cause is all the wet weather we've been having has made natural oils come to the surface and the horses consuming these is what is causing the problems. You might see the oil in field puddles I definitely saw it in mine.


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## Monkers (11 March 2013)

Happyhooves, I have had my pasture and my hay analysed for mycotoxins. The samples were sent to the USA for analysis. I used alltech for the analysis and yes, it is expensive at £220 per test. There are other companies in the uk that are a little cheaper but their tests are not as thorough. I have also been feeding a mycotoxin binder since October last year. My pasture had low mycotoxins generally with moderate levels of Zearalenone, which would not cause the liver issues. My hay was very low indeed in mycotoxins, lower than average. All hay and pasture will have some readings. I can't rule them out completely, but common sense says its far more likely to be something else. If my horses live through this, then I will be feeding a binder always from now on as mycotoxins are a very real threat even if they are not a problem for me this time.
Biopsies taken today from the two worst animals. One is only 10 months old. Results in a week.


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## Monkers (11 March 2013)

I meant to add that all of mine have been kept off pasture since just before Christmas, so they have not been exposed to any possible nasties from the wet grass. That was coming up for 3 months ago and they are still getting worse. They have all had hay from different sources and they are all on different feeds from different companies, yet they are all sick bar one. There is no common factor linking these horses at all, other than they have all either directly or indirectly shared a water trough. The only 3 that didn't show symptoms ( one still here, two left yard a couple of weeks ago) had their own water supply. Two in their own paddocks as they are unsociable and one on box rest due to injury. All horses could snog over the fences though. If it is a virus, it will be passed through the water when horses share troughs. That much I'm convinced of so far!


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## Slinkyunicorn (11 March 2013)

Monckers I am sorry to hear you still haven't got an answer yet


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## princestar (11 March 2013)

My friends 5 year old collapsed twice now (more like fainting less of a fit) she is kept in Kent... worried it could be to do with hay!?


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## little_critter (11 March 2013)

Mine had liver problems late 2011 / early 2012. Biopsy showed it wasn't ragwort and wasn't permanent damage. Never found out what caused it but a course of steroids cleared it up. She was back to normal liver enzyme levels in June 2012. 
Several other horses in the yard also had high liver enzymes but I don't know how they got on because they left soon after diagnosis. 
This is in east Somerset.


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## Erin (12 March 2013)

My mare had high liver enzymes 2011-2012.

Forage analysis showed hay was very high in Iron & Manganese and high in Selenium.
Once we got her onto hay with better levels and with minerals balanced to it the enzymes came down.

High iron is very common in this country and most feeds/supplements contain Iron and not enough copper.


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## JillA (12 March 2013)

I don't currently have any problems - I think - but as I understand it the liver can absorb a lot of damage and continue functioning reasonably well, so by the time any symptoms are evident it is pretty well advanced. So that begs the question how MANY of our horses are having their liver affected in some way by something?


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## saturdaygirl (12 March 2013)

Have people tried using a flukecide on these horses such as triclabendazole? Liver fluke is becoming a lot more common in horses, and is difficult to diagnose


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## HappyHooves (12 March 2013)

MONKERS - what a problem and still no answers. The biopsies will show what the damage is but wont tell much about what caused it will it? Abscess or bile production problems show on blood test. The only thing that sounds as if it could be a cause is the water source. Are the three without the problem being protected from something by drinking from a different source, or are the other sources the cause, and the three are avoiding it, I wonder. Or is it just co-incidence? I wonder (as mentioned by SATURDAYGIRL) if the fluke is a probelm - it does cause liver damage.Were your horses on land previously grazed by sheep or cattle or adjacent to it? But were the three OK horses on the same/adjacent pasture? Easy enough to use a flukicide anyway, as long as your vet feels that the liver damaged ones can cope with that.

You say that you had your hay and pasture analysed - but what about your feeds? If you got mycotoxin testing for about £200 then it was VERY cheap since all tests are for a single mycotoxin and there are 200+ that are problematical. 

I agree with the mycotoxin binder- I too am now feeding this. What rate do you use? And I agree with JILLA that we none of us know what damage we are doing with the feeds, and supplements not to mention hay and pasture! The testing of raw stuffs for concentrates is done for moulds and probably by the supplier of the raw stuffs. What about the storage of that raw stuff prior to production to a concentrate for example - is it still mould free? Any heat treatment will kill off the moulds but it seems that the mycotoxins that they have formed remain. I even read somewhere that animals can metabolise/ produce toxins from the remnants of detroyed moulds!

The research is still going on and there are now more questions than answers. A lot of work is done in Ireland;  the cost to the equine racing world of poor performance and breeding problems means that there is funding, and anything that affects a race horse will effect the ordinary dobbin!


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## Liath (12 March 2013)

I know of two horses in Somerset, one in South Wales and one in the Cotswolds who have had 'unexplained liver problems', all resolved eventually, though sadly one died of an unrelated cause.

It's very worrying because as someone else said, the liver is a fantastic 'machine' and by the time symptoms start to show, there are usually some pretty bad issues with the affected liver.


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## Choccie (12 March 2013)

17yr old diagnosed considerable Liver damage Oct 2011 prognosis 'fair', recovered with 4 x monthly treatments, but only if we kept up anti-biotics as well as B vits and Hepatasyl.  Thought all Ok by Easter, came into work for 6 weeks, relapsed and recovered after two treatments.  Now retired as i can't afford to keep treating him if he relapses due to the pressure of work.


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## Slinkyunicorn (12 March 2013)

Mycotoxins problems are on the increase this year due to the rainfall we have had. Mycotoxins are found on gress/pasture as well as in hay, haylage and feed bins - no matter how well made and stored. Vets do not check for mycotoxins routinely and they have nothing to prescribe or recommend even if they do.

The only mycotoxin binder available is Mycosorb by Alltech - it is a scientifically proven binder to mycotoxins in a horse gut which helps them excrete them. The only equine supplement that contains Mycosorb is their Lifeforce range - either the Elite or Formula.


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## Kokopelli (12 March 2013)

Isn't it mycotoxins that also cause myopathy? I could be wrong but wonder if the liver problems are somehow related to eam and both have an increases number or cases.


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## Slinkyunicorn (12 March 2013)

Kokopelli said:



			Isn't it mycotoxins that also cause myopathy? I could be wrong but wonder if the liver problems are somehow related to eam and both have an increases number or cases.
		
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There are hundreds of different mycotoxins which may cause a number of different problems - the most common is immune system impairment - the liver is the main organ involved in the immune sytem which is why the liver maybe affected.

Here is an interesting article about mycotoxins

http://www.alltech.com/equine/ask


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## Artful (12 March 2013)

Very interesting article -what a minefield though its hard to know where to start looking ! It's also odd that in our case the paddock mine and my sisters horse were in during the summer is actually split in three ( so effectively the same bit of land!) and the other liveries on the other two parts were unaffected. We also use the same water trough as two of them . All very strange -maybe we will never know. Just hope we have a drier year this year !!!


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## charlie76 (12 March 2013)

We have a horse in the yard just diagnosed with a liver problem following several colic episodes.  The enzymes are getting higher so he is having a biopsy done tomorrow.  He is 16.  Out with other horses who all seem fine.  His first colic happened after being in for two weeks so surely nothing in the field.  I am in berks


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## HappyHooves (13 March 2013)

It looks from various research papers that mycotoxins will cause liver problems and also colic and other gastric problems ? ulcers. Mycotoxins also cause skin problems and reproductive problems. nasty. They can be found in feed, hay, pasture, bedding, on walls, buckets, in the air.... its a real problem and from the number of people whose horses have liver problems I wonder if mycotoxins are becoming something that needs to be better researched. Work is done in Ireland since it is funded by the racing fraternity as mycotoxins will cause a drop off in performance, and also mycotoxins can cause foetal death and abortion. They have been well known as a problem in the farm world for ages.
 I've now got mine on a mycotoxin adsorbant which goes in the feed, and steamed hay. There seems little else one can do.


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## Artful (13 March 2013)

Hmm -sounds very feasible although when our horses were tested we were told that neither showed any toxic problem?  My sisters horse had an infection and mine  well we just don't know but we we assured that they had not ingested anything toxic.  But are mycotoxins a different sort of toxin?? I'm very confused!!!  Lets hope that there will be more research especially if wet weather does play a part in all of this -but even then what do we do about it -horses have to graze don't they ?!!


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## Sunshine (13 March 2013)

I have had concerns about this for some time now due to having a laminitic pony which we routinely treated with milk thistle extract to help the liver clear toxins. From some research and control tests, I felt that the levels of white clover in the grazing had an effect on the pony. It seems that white clover has cyanide compounds in it which are released when chewed and these have an effect on the liver and blood. Unfortunately it is also 'addictive' once the ponies get a taste for it, and there will be lots of yards where white clover is in the fields.
http://pdf.profitproag.com/Database/Hay Varieties to Avoid.pdf


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## Slinkyunicorn (13 March 2013)

Alltech has done a lot of research in to mycotoxins - they are a US based company and they are light years ahead of us in the treatment of mycotoxins. They make the only mycotoxin binder available and it is backed up by scientific research unlike milk thistle and other liver supplements.


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## HappyHooves (13 March 2013)

Sunshine said:



			I have had concerns about this for some time now due to having a laminitic pony which we routinely treated with milk thistle extract to help the liver clear toxins. From some research and control tests, I felt that the levels of white clover in the grazing had an effect on the pony. It seems that white clover has cyanide compounds in it which are released when chewed and these have an effect on the liver and blood. Unfortunately it is also 'addictive' once the ponies get a taste for it, and there will be lots of yards where white clover is in the fields.
http://pdf.profitproag.com/Database/Hay Varieties to Avoid.pdf

Click to expand...

White clover contains two mycotoxins and although they can show as slimy black patches they are not always visible, so you have to be extremely careful if you're making hay that contains white clover. One of the toxins mimics reproductive hormones and can stop a mare getting pregnant. The other toxin causes a disease called slobbers where the horse will drool continuosly, tears run, it has uncontrollable diarrhoea and urination. Never heard about the cyanide compound though- that sounds lethal!

Although milk thistle is often said to be a 'liver detox' there is very little scientific research evidence that it is.


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## Slinkyunicorn (13 March 2013)

For those of you wanting to know more about mycotoxins have a look at this website 

http://www.knowmycotoxins.com/horse.htm


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## Tuffles 23 (13 March 2013)

Hi we lost one on our yard last year (friends horse) 5 year old trotter x he had a small virus 6 months befor which we now think was the start but he went down hill very quickly poor little horse .
 We are in East Sussex.


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## Slinkyunicorn (13 March 2013)

Mycotoxins are found EVERYWHERE - they are not area sepcific


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## Louis (13 March 2013)

Wow - didint expect so many replies! How many have had liver biopsies


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## foxy1 (14 March 2013)

Mine had biopsy at post mortem examination, nothing found so I didn't biopsy the other two.


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## Misog2000 (14 March 2013)

We had 19 on our yard in 2011/12 with raised enzymes of varying degrees. One horse developed severe laminitis as a result and was pts, some were biopsied some not as different vets had different treatment plans. Non specific inflammation was all that showed on those that were biopsied. Cause never identified, forage was suspected but I don't think we will ever know for sure.


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## threeponies (14 March 2013)

I had the pony that died biopsied and was told he had no signs of poisoning.  I chose not to have my pony that is presently affected biopsied for 2 reasons: I think the chances of him having something different from my other pony are slim, they lived together 24/7, shared a stable, ate the same feed etc. He hates vets. With a passion. 
Interesting re the clover though.  My vet recently told me to check there was not a lot of clover in my grazing as it wouldn't be good for my wee guy.


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## Monkers (15 March 2013)

HappyHooves said:



			MONKERS - what a problem and still no answers. The biopsies will show what the damage is but wont tell much about what caused it will it? Abscess or bile production problems show on blood test. The only thing that sounds as if it could be a cause is the water source. Are the three without the problem being protected from something by drinking from a different source, or are the other sources the cause, and the three are avoiding it, I wonder. Or is it just co-incidence? I wonder (as mentioned by SATURDAYGIRL) if the fluke is a probelm - it does cause liver damage.Were your horses on land previously grazed by sheep or cattle or adjacent to it? But were the three OK horses on the same/adjacent pasture? Easy enough to use a flukicide anyway, as long as your vet feels that the liver damaged ones can cope with that.

You say that you had your hay and pasture analysed - but what about your feeds? If you got mycotoxin testing for about £200 then it was VERY cheap since all tests are for a single mycotoxin and there are 200+ that are problematical. 

I agree with the mycotoxin binder- I too am now feeding this. What rate do you use? And I agree with JILLA that we none of us know what damage we are doing with the feeds, and supplements not to mention hay and pasture! The testing of raw stuffs for concentrates is done for moulds and probably by the supplier of the raw stuffs. What about the storage of that raw stuff prior to production to a concentrate for example - is it still mould free? Any heat treatment will kill off the moulds but it seems that the mycotoxins that they have formed remain. I even read somewhere that animals can metabolise/ produce toxins from the remnants of detroyed moulds!

The research is still going on and there are now more questions than answers. A lot of work is done in Ireland;  the cost to the equine racing world of poor performance and breeding problems means that there is funding, and anything that affects a race horse will effect the ordinary dobbin!
		
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Thanks HH, and yes, it's very frustrating. Biopsy results are imminent so maybe we will find a definative cause, but there are no guarantees, especially as one already biopsied a couple of months ago found not very much at all.

To answer your questions..

I do think that if it is viral it would have been transmitted through the water troughs.

The water itself is from the mains and all pipe work etc is modern and safe for human consumption. I haven't had the water tested, but presumeably all the humans would be sick too and worse than the horses!

I haven't entirely ruled out liver fluke, but it is unlikely. Given that the horses all came down with it within a couple of months of each other and also given that a liver fluke needs around 6 months to mature and lay eggs, all the horses would have needed to have picked up the flukes at around the same time. We are nowhere near any sheep or cattle, and whilst the odd deer might have dropped a few eggs in the field, the likely hood is still very slim. The horses are also in various different fields. Repeated fluke faecal tests have been negative, but I am certainly not ruling it out. They are not in any fit state to have a flukeicide at the moment as a precaution.

I'm not sure you are right about the mycotoxin tests. Dodson and horroll do one for about £90, which looks for 5 common mycotoxins. By no means comprehensive, but can give an indication. Alltech look for around 30 mycotoxins for £220, I believe they are the only company to offer this level of testing, but I may be wrong.

I feed mycosorb farmpak at 50g per day for maintenance. There is an equine version that is more expensive but more concentrated and I have been using that on a foal.

As for testing the hard feed, well no I havent, but this is very unlikely to be a source as all the horses here are on different feeds from different companies, so they will all have to be toxic which is unlikely.

I think there has been a lot of panic over mycotoxins in the last few months, and there is no doubt that our unusually wet weather has lead to an increase in toxins in forage, but people need to understand that mycotoxins have always existed in this way and horses can deal with them to a certain extent. This year however, there is a genuine reason to worry as the only thing that will stabilise mycotoxins to "normal levels" is a normal seasonal pattern, i.e wet sping and autumn, dry summers and winters. From the research I have done over the last 6 months, I will be feeding a binder all year round from now on.

Will let you know the biopsy results


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## henfynywbowen (18 March 2013)

30 horses in the midlands - I own a herd of horses that have proven liver damage caused by chemical insult. A neighbouring farmer sprayed them with chemicals. Some exhibited a number of sypmtoms including photosensitivity, weightloss, ataxia, alopecia etc etc, one dropped dead with no symptoms, some showed no signs at all apart from weightloss. 
The liver will show any slight insult in raised enzyme levels, this can be caused by something as simple as a cold/cough to too high levels of protien in the food, I think people ought to be careful before convincing themselves that their horse has 'liver damage/virus/disease' lets not all jump on the band wagon unless we have undoubtable proof, other than raised liver enzymes, raised by a few hundred is probably nothing really to worry about. If you are convincing yourself that your horse or pony has liver damage, just remember you will never be able to sell it, without declaring this, making it totally worthless, there are very few cases that the liver FULLY recovers from a serious insult so you may be condeming your horses without proof. Mild liver damage can be recovered from but when it gets serious you are talking many many years of problems, trust me i know, I am now into my fifth year of these problems, my vets bills run well above any figure you would like to estimate,a simple cold can put a pony in a dire situtaion, as do my feed bills (specialised feed is another necessity) in other words if you have serious reason for doubt please consult a vet to have it confirmed or put your mind at ease, weightloss or alopecia alone may well be other things so rather than causing yourself to panic talk to your vet and get them to do hair samples aswell as bloods. Horses are meant to loose weight at this time of year, it is natural so lets try and be a little more positive, and rather than jumping to conclusions please talk to your vet!


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## henfynywbowen (18 March 2013)

Also as for Biopsies, they are not something i would choose to do on a live animal, they are often very unsuccesful as it is very unlikely for a live animal to have a liver with is affected completely, I had only one of mine biopsied (live) and her results showed only that she had a small chance of recovering, if it had been fibourous (not 100% thats the right term) she would have had no chance at all. My one that died her liver did show a very serious insult and we knew it would, but the vet still wouldnt state that was the cause of death, that was unknown (don't ask!). Liver biopsies are also very high risk and are really a last resort to help decide whether an animal should be euthanised or not so please don't have these done without very good reason.


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## Artful (18 March 2013)

Very interesting read.  My sister had a biopsy on her mare because of colic and severe weight loss.  It was done because the blood test result showed that she was basically in liver failure (the vets words) and they needed to find out about the cause  I.e. infection.  She was given antibiotics for six weeks plus milk thistle and correct diet.  She responded very well and three months on her liver levels are all within normal limits.. I think the biopsy was necessary and seemed to cause her no problem at all!!!  She is just beginning to look more like her normal self.  My boy's blood test showed no infection , so biopsy not necessary. He did however have some damage so was put on hepatosyl etc.  he is also looking heaps better and liver levels all within normal limits.  No rhyme or reason to any of this so hope there will be no long lasting effects!


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## henfynywbowen (18 March 2013)

O.O.I how many of these horses with liver insult are grazed near to arable land? Has anyone had hair samples tested for chemical residue?


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## foxy1 (19 March 2013)

henfynywbowen said:



			O.O.I how many of these horses with liver insult are grazed near to arable land? Has anyone had hair samples tested for chemical residue?
		
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Mine aren't anywhere near arable land but they are near a very busy duel carriageway which made me wonder about some kind of spillage/residue from the road. Where did you get a hair sample tested?


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## Tonks (20 March 2013)

I just wanted to say that there are many different types of species of Ragwort worldwide and across the UK. They can look surprisingly unlike Ragwort but all contain the dangerous Alkaloid, which of course, causes irreversible liver damage.

I have pictures at my yard of the many different types to make people more aware.

Googling images for plants that contain the 'Pyrrolizidine alkaloids' should give you some idea about the amazing variety there are. I had one livery client, who after I showed her one particular variety of ragwort, said she used to feed it to her guinepigs........no wonder it had an untimely demise from this planet...............

As an instructor, I have been to many different yards where I have routinely seen different types Ragwort growing, where people have no idea that it is a type of Ragwort. Of course, they still contain the dangerous alkaloid.

Most horses will not eat Ragwort or plants containg the alkaloid, but some do. Of course, it is particularly dangerous when in hay, as it looses its bitterness and becomes more palateable. 

Could this explain some of the cases of liver damage described here?


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## Nugget La Poneh (20 March 2013)

Tonks said:



			Googling images for plants that contain the 'Pyrrolizidine alkaloids' should give you some idea about the amazing variety there are. I had one livery client, who after I showed her one particular variety of ragwort, said she used to feed it to her guinepigs........no wonder it had an untimely demise from this planet...............
		
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Groundsel by any chance?

I am now wondering if I should have the Fat Poneh checked - he is rather partial to Coltsfolt/butterbur


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## CBAnglo (6 January 2015)

I am resurrecting this old thread so I can get some views from the people who originally posted, how many had horses that had livers that returned to normal and were there any relapses?  Also, did you continue to bloodtest/treat after a few normal results?

My three were all diagnosed with high liver enzymes in 2013 - in the thousands.  One of them had severe liver damage which has slowly reversed.

One horse was diagnosed in December 2013 - levels very high.  We had him tested as he was very lethargic and losing performance for a horse that previously was quite fit and ridden about 6 times a week.  He nearly collapsed a couple of time being brought in.  He was probably suffering for a few months beforehand, probably from about June 2013 but the decline became more rapid in December.

At the same time (December 2013), another of my horses (a light hack) became very resistant under saddle but this was attributed to arthritis and he wasn't ridden during the winter.  We didn't try riding him again until May 2014 when he was turned out 24/7 and less stiff but he was still resistant.  This was very unusual as he normally charged off everywhere jumping every ditch in sight (he didn't understand what light hack meant).

My third horse was in rehab and therefore not ridden until March 2013.  He was coming back from KS/PSD ops though, so we weren't sure if he could be ridden again.  His resistance under saddle was attributed to his injuries and he was retired.

We continued to treat the first horse and in Jan 2014 he had normal tests.  We started bringing him back into work but by May 2014 he was showing all the same signs again and was retested - results were double what they were before.  He had a biopsy which was clear for ragwort etc.  We had the other two tested and their results were even higher!

From May 2014 to June 2014 they were treated with antibiotics, liver support supplement and milk thistle and turned away.  Levels slowly reducing and we started riding lightly again in July 2014 - all three were happy to be ridden.  August 2014 the first horse started showing the same signs again and his results showed that his levels had risen slightly.  They were retested in October 2014 and then December 2014 (every 6 weeks) and all 3 show vast improvement, second horse is back to normal, other 2 almost within normal range.

Question: they are all on the liver support supplement + milk thistle but supplement is running out (and insurance finished).  Should I continue on this (it will have been 2 months since the clear results) or try mycosorb or nothing?  I am worried about it coming back.  Also, I was thinking about getting bloods done again at the end of Feb (3 months since "clear" results) as they had various relapses at that point before.  My vet thinks I only need to continue with milk thistle since they have improved steadily over the last couple of months.

Just to add: After the first relapse I changed grazing and hay; since then the levels have been slowly reducing with that one small blip.  Whilst they were at their worst they were turned away on field rest (new grazing) as work would have strained the livers too much.  Since they have all been diagnosed though they are all in light work as although they are better they still tire easily (also loss of fitness) and I am conscious not to push too much.  What kind of recovery period have people experienced?  A friend of mine who had a liver problem said he didn't feel "normal" again until 12 months after he got the all clear.  I had suspected it would be the same sort of period for the horses as well.


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