# Laura collett, air jacket did inflate says h&h



## Topaz Tiger (18 July 2013)

Interesting article in h&h this morning, it says that Laura's air jacket did inflate before impact. 
I event at novice and have so far not been convinced enough to buy an air jacket. 
The article says she had a collapsed lung and broken ribs and was not breathing when the paramedics reached her. 
Interested in people's thoughts and what P2 will say as it appears it did inflate in this rotational fall, but Laura obviously still sustained some very serious injuries, although I guess they could say it would have been even worse without it.....


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## TheMule (18 July 2013)

I love my Exo, I really dont understand why they never caught on, surely they're the only thing with any chance of preventing crush injuries....


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## popsdosh (18 July 2013)

Just backs up what I said all along when P2 said they would stop serious injury! you are still the meat in the sandwich when a horse falls on you and you still get crushed.
I am not against people using them but they should be told the truth about what they can stop happening.


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## Topaz Tiger (18 July 2013)

I agree about the exo, it seems the best idea. Think the 'meat in the sandwich' was shown rather clearly by poor Laura. 
Am sure that the air jackets have their place, but I would only wear it to save from serious injury and as shown here in a very high profile fall, all the typical crush injuries were still sustained, even though it inflated before impact.


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## lannerch (18 July 2013)

Except your so far all missing the point, without the p2 in view of the serious damage she sustained wearing it.... She would probably be dead.
No air jacket , body protector etc can prevent all injury when you have over half a ton rolling on you!


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## Topaz Tiger (18 July 2013)

But lannerch thats exactly what I did say in my original post.


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## lannerch (18 July 2013)

Sorry yes you did , I missed it as you put it as what p2 may say as an excuse for their air jacket, no excuse needed IMO it will be fact. Thank goodness she was wearing it!


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## only_me (18 July 2013)

What body protector was she wearing?

The air jacket can't provide all the protection and the BP has helped also - anyone know the make of her BP?


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## Topaz Tiger (18 July 2013)

Fair point. 
But seriously, what I don't understand about the air jackets is that there appears to be no rigidity within the jacket that allows it to maintain its shape when a heavy weight is pressed down on it.  It appears, bear with me, physics is not my strong point, that it can deform, therefore not protecting the ribcage within. TBF none of the body protectors can do that apart from the EXO. The only way it could protect, would be if it maintained the same shape when inflated when a heavy weight was placed on it, whether your body was inside it or not, which I believe it doesn't, unlike the EXO.


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## _GG_ (18 July 2013)

This may make interesting reading...

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/news/exo-bodycage-body-protector-faces-an-uncertain-future/


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## ArcticFox (18 July 2013)

I don't think a P2 would stop you from being crushed, I don't wear mine for that reason - I wear it as additional protection and hope that it helps by lessening the injury. 

Even her BP wouldn't stop the ton of horse unless its an exo - unfortunately I found it the most uncomfortable BP I have ever worn and sold mine.  I found it made my riding much worse.  Great idea but didn't work for me. 

I have fallen wearing the P2 and BP and I do believe it helped my fall - thankfully it didn't involve a horse landing on me, but whether the P2 helped at all or not, I'm relieved to hear Laura is on the mend.


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## Fanatical (18 July 2013)

In my opinion, no matter what safety protection we choose to wear, the sport of eventing is high risk and we could all easily end up seriously injured or worse, regardless of what we wear.

The EXO probably is the best in terms of helping to prevent being crushed, but that is no good if you have broken your neck on your way down. There is always an element of risk there that will never be wiped out entirely.

I wear a P2 and have up until now, thought that if it saves me a few bruises and makes me less sore after a fall then great - it doesn't do much harm to wear it, and I don't even notice it when I have it on.

The fact that Laura had hers on and it DID inflate before the horse came down on her makes me even more keen to wear mine. In my opinion, given the serious injuries she sustained, her air jacket most probably saved her life on this occasion, even if it was a momentary cushioning effect that took even a little of the impact away from her.


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## Nicnac (18 July 2013)

Fanatical said:



			In my opinion, no matter what safety protection we choose to wear, the sport of eventing is high risk and we could all easily end up seriously injured or worse, regardless of what we wear.

The EXO probably is the best in terms of helping to prevent being crushed, but that is no good if you have broken your neck on your way down. There is always an element of risk there that will never be wiped out entirely.

I wear a P2 and have up until now, thought that if it saves me a few bruises and makes me less sore after a fall then great - it doesn't do much harm to wear it, and I don't even notice it when I have it on.

The fact that Laura had hers on and it DID inflate before the horse came down on her makes me even more keen to wear mine. In my opinion, given the serious injuries she sustained, her air jacket most probably saved her life on this occasion, even if it was a momentary cushioning effect that took even a little of the impact away from her.
		
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Top response ^^

For LC to be in a critical condition and intubated on Monday, 8th July to walking on Monday, 15th July and discharged evening of 16th July is nothing short of miraculous.  

Wishing her a speedy, full recovery.


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## dafthoss (18 July 2013)

lannerch said:



			Except your so far all missing the point, without the p2 in view of the serious damage she sustained wearing it.... She would probably be dead.
No air jacket , body protector etc can prevent all injury when you have over half a ton rolling on you!
		
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But without 2 identical falls, one with a p2 and one without it can't be proved it was the p2 that saved her.


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## Dunlin (18 July 2013)

Interesting thread with lots of different opinions. It's good that Laura's P2 did inflate as the worry with them is if you are involved in a rotational fall it is possible that you won't come away from the horse enough to trigger the system. 

I did have a P2 jacket but very recently I chopped it in for a WW EXO Bodycage that came up on eBay. I wanted the EXO from the start but after clicking on every single stockist via the EXO website I found that not one place had them in stock. I thought this was just due to them being very popular but I'm not so sure now after reading the news that the patent has been sold to WW. Looking at the WW website they don't even mention the EXO let alone stock it.

I do like the EXO, it's pretty heavy and rigid but I'm slowly getting used to it. At the moment I am looking at cobbling some RP shoulder pads onto it. I have to say it's a lot less faff putting the EXO on rather than my airowear followed by the P2. I'm neurotic and no matter what I am doing (hack, lesson, jump) I wear every bit of kit I own and I often forgot to plug the P2 in, no chance of that happening with the EXO. I have had a very minor fall in the EXO and I was doing a good impression of an upturned turtle but then the same thing happened in another minor tumble wearing the P2 so I don't think there's much difference between the 2 in terms of not being able to roll easily. It doesn't bother me too much though as I don't think anyone has time to roll away from a rotational.

Back onto Laura, I am very pleased to hear she is doing well and hoping to go home or to the Jockey rehab centre today.


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## mrussell (18 July 2013)

so I also bought hubby a P2 in the last couple of weeks... more from a cushioning point of view than from a crush aspect.  I truly believe that no matter how experienced you are and how many precautions youve taken, if you are in the wrong place at the wrong time, not even an army of angels is going to help you.  

I dont believe there is a safety product out there that can cover all possibilites but if swapping treads in your stirrups, buying a new hat, changing your make of gloves, putting on an air jacket or refusing to turn your inside-out pants back round the right way works, go with it.  You never know what just might make the difference.....


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## Nic (18 July 2013)

_GG_ said:



			This may make interesting reading...

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/news/exo-bodycage-body-protector-faces-an-uncertain-future/

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Really confused as i thought it ceased to be on sale years ago?!


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## _GG_ (18 July 2013)

Nic said:



			Really confused as i thought it ceased to be on sale years ago?!
		
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I wouldn't know...i googled it as wanted to see what it was like having had my horse on top of me 5 weeks ago.

That was the first result....updated March this year.

The article says the designers have donated the patent to the RDA. Admirable...it would be good to know what happens with it.

Seems like a great product but as with many, not without its faults.


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## MiaBella (18 July 2013)

As has already been said, unless you can have an identical fall without the air jacket its not possible to know how much it helped or hindered (I do worry that when they go off in a crush injury they may add to the crush as they inflate).  

Plenty of people used to walk away from horrific looking falls before body protectors and air jackets, plenty didn't


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## longdog (18 July 2013)

TheMule said:



			I love my Exo, I really dont understand why they never caught on, surely they're the only thing with any chance of preventing crush injuries....
		
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The problem with the Exo was the company marketing them. We applied to stock them, along with Airowear, How's, Rodney Powell & Champion & couldn't get them


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## SpottedCat (18 July 2013)

I'm another who loves the exo. I agree, they were very poorly marketed by Woof, which is a shame. Re the air jacket - doubtless there will be a million advertorials now proclaiming it saved her life - and who knows, maybe it did. But that's just the point, none of us know because the testing hasn't been done despite it being pretty easy to do.


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## Zebedee (18 July 2013)

Lots of interesting comments on here
http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/foru...ody-Cage-Back-Protectors-and-Rotational-Falls
including contributions from the inventor of the Exo. I think what put a lot of people of was the myth perpetuated that you needed an allen key to remove them if the medics needed to work on you.


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## SpottedCat (18 July 2013)

Zebedee said:



			Lots of interesting comments on here
http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/foru...ody-Cage-Back-Protectors-and-Rotational-Falls
including contributions from the inventor of the Exo. I think what put a lot of people of was the myth perpetuated that you needed an allen key to remove them if the medics needed to work on you.
		
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I interviewed a well known rider when they first came out - he said he loved the concept but would never wear one as he didn't think they looked 'professional' enough. I strongly suspect that like wearing a crash hat with tails, and like the success of air jackets, if Woof had bothered to get enough top riders wearing them, then the exo would be a bit more ubiquitous. Also, lets remember that BE did a pretty good hatchet job on them by getting starters to tell people they thought they shouldn't be riding in them. This may be cynical of me, but given who some of the major sponsors of BE are, it's not exactly surprising that they weren't keen on a more protective product becoming popular. 

Anyway, I'll wear mine until the inevitable day BE tell me I can't, which I suspect won't be too far away, and then I guess I'll get an airjacket.


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## teapot (18 July 2013)

dafthoss said:



			But without 2 identical falls, one with a p2 and one without it can't be proved it was the p2 that saved her.
		
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Exactly. 



_GG_ said:



			I wouldn't know...i googled it as wanted to see what it was like having had my horse on top of me 5 weeks ago.

That was the first result....updated March this year.

The article says the designers have donated the patent to the RDA. Admirable...it would be good to know what happens with it.

Seems like a great product but as with many, not without its faults.
		
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Interesting that RDA has the patent. Body protectors are a double edged sword for us RDA volunteers...


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## _GG_ (18 July 2013)

teapot said:



			Exactly. 



Interesting that RDA has the patent. Body protectors are a double edged sword for us RDA volunteers...
		
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My old mare was competed by two disabled people. A teenager and a lady in her late 60's. Both were advised to wear body protectors, neither could ride if they did.

I used to volunteer with RDA many years ago and can't imagine it being that easy tbh.


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## ArcticFox (18 July 2013)

SpottedCat said:



			Also, lets remember that BE did a pretty good hatchet job on them by getting starters to tell people they thought they shouldn't be riding in them. .
		
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Did they really do this??

or is this a bit of hearsay. I'm only asking as I have been to loads of events wearing orange stirrups for competing in SJ and XC and have had a couple of people say that I shouldn't as its against the rules.  After approaching BE to find out it turns out it was just the stewards themselves giving their opinion rather than someone had told them (even though this is what they said to me)

I now have written permission from BE, and it was only two events that I went to out of loads but perhaps it was personal opinion?


having had a body cage I don't see the allan key problem as there is a couple attached to the BP!


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## SpottedCat (18 July 2013)

I've had it said to me, and there was someone on here, who IIRC competed at 3* or 4* in one and was advised by the starter not to wear it. 

Although you're right, I didn't bother following it up with BE so perhaps it wasn't a direction from them - though I was told it was. 

Plus the ridiculousness of having to put your name on a list with the secretary so they can tell people you're wearing one - IMO as a perfectly acceptable bit of kit, paramedics shouldn't need to be warned you are going XC in one! As you say, they have two allen keys in them, and since the cage is simply a frame, they could easily take a scalpel or a pair of scissors to the foam inserts as you can with a normal BP, so quite why the high drama about them I do not know!


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## Goldenstar (18 July 2013)

She had an awful fall the type riders dread she's injured but alive and it seems she will fully recover .
It would seem to be a good reason to wear an air jacket.


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## SpottedCat (18 July 2013)

Goldenstar said:



			She had an awful fall the type riders dread she's injured but alive and it seems she will fully recover .
It would seem to be a good reason to wear an air jacket.
		
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Except that coincidence is not causality. There's absolutely no way of knowing what the outcome would be if she hadn't been wearing an air jacket - and other people have survived rotational falls before air jackets were standard XC wear. 

It's not even that I don't think it could have helped - it might well have done. But there is a long established scientific principle relating to risk taking which shows that the safer you perceive yourself to be, the more risks you are likely to take, so assuming wearing an air jacket makes you safer, might actually have the opposite effect.


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## kit279 (18 July 2013)

In addition to which, I have some vague wonderings about whether the air jacket inflated before or after the fall, in which case it begs the question whether it was a help or a hindrance with fractured ribs and lung contusions.  I've seen how tight the jackets are and if I had a flail chest or similar, I wonder whether it would be a good or bad thing to be wearing one..


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## chaps89 (18 July 2013)

With the H&H article re: EXO bp's it was first published 2008, I get the feeling the last updated march 2013 is just when they may have edited some of the website/that page from a techy aspect rather than the article itself?


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## DollyPentreath (18 July 2013)

Re The Exo.. I've spoken to several professionals regarding them and they were both of the opinion the risk of neck or base of spine injury is too high. I couldn't quite pin down the mechanics of their theories but in general they thought that if they're going to face life paralysed they'd rather is was from the waist down than the neck down. Maybe a professional thinks differently to an amateur, but neither would consider wearing one for the same reason. They took the attitude that walking away totally unscathed will never be possible and that something has to give somewhere, seemed to me (in the case of the Exo) they both thought the neck would be too vulnerable. 

I don't have an opinion either way as I haven't ridden in an air jacket or Exo!


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## SpottedCat (18 July 2013)

DollyPentreath said:



			Re The Exo.. I've spoken to several professionals regarding them and they were both of the opinion the risk of neck or base of spine injury is too high. I couldn't quite pin down the mechanics of their theories but in general they thought that if they're going to face life paralysed they'd rather is was from the waist down than the neck down. Maybe a professional thinks differently to an amateur, but neither would consider wearing one for the same reason. They took the attitude that walking away totally unscathed will never be possible and that something has to give somewhere, seemed to me (in the case of the Exo) they both thought the neck would be too vulnerable. 

I don't have an opinion either way as I haven't ridden in an air jacket or Exo!
		
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See I can't quite grasp that, as the rigid part is so far away from my neck that in order for it to create a pivot point, my head would no longer be attached to my body. At which point I think whether I have been saved from my horse falling on me or not is probably the least of my worries! I've looked and looked at it - but the hyperflexion in the neck you'd need for my neck to hit the exo is such that I don't think it'd be the exo causing the issue, I think the hyperflexion would do the trick all on its own!

BTW, I'm not trying to be dismissive/flippant - I actually looked into this quite a lot when I heard it was what people were worried about, and I think either I am missing something or they haven't seen one on someone?


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## cptrayes (18 July 2013)

SpottedCat said:



			'

Plus the ridiculousness of having to put your name on a list with the secretary so they can tell people you're wearing one - IMO as a perfectly acceptable bit of kit, paramedics shouldn't need to be warned you are going XC in one! As you say, they have two allen keys in them, and since the cage is simply a frame, they could easily take a scalpel or a pair of scissors to the foam inserts as you can with a normal BP, so quite why the high drama about them I do not know!
		
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Because they can't cut the frame away to pump your heart. They have to unscrew it with the allen key so they have to know where it is and how to use it, and the delay in keeping your blood circulating meanwhile may result in death or brain damage.

Likewise, if you have a neck or a back fracture they have to slide you out of it, risking destabilization of the fracture.


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## SpottedCat (18 July 2013)

cptrayes said:



			Because they can't cut the frame away to pump your heart. They have to unscrew it with the allen key so they have to know where it is and how to use it, and the delay in keeping your blood circulating meanwhile may result in death or brain damage.

Likewise, if you have a neck or a back fracture they have to slide you out of it, risking destabilization of the fracture.
		
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Except that's not true, is it? They can quite easily cut the foam away and access your heart - it's not like it's a rigid box around you! And they don't have to slide you out of it because the allen keys let it come away into two completely separate halves, so it's no different from a normal BP in that respect.


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## DollyPentreath (18 July 2013)

I can completely see your point S_C, but both were adamant in thinking the Exo created an increased risk of neck injury (not that I agree/disagree at this point in time). Maybe that was the BE rumour mill in action! But I can't come up with another explanation for why the pros don't wear them. Both also great riders who have competed at the highest level too. On another note, I was chatting to one of them today who seemed very positive about the motorcycle technology which is on it's way to the BP field.


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## cptrayes (18 July 2013)

SpottedCat said:



			Except that's not true, is it? They can quite easily cut the foam away and access your heart - it's not like it's a rigid box around you! And they don't have to slide you out of it because the allen keys let it come away into two completely separate halves, so it's no different from a normal BP in that respect.
		
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I wasn't aware the cage would give room for a double handed pump over your heart, but I still would not want the delay while they fiddled with cutting the body protector away from the cage.

Regarding the destabilization, the cage is curved, surely, even undone, and therefore you have to be rolled or lifted, not simply slid, off the bottom half after they've messed about unscrewing it from the top top half?

I tried one in Derby House when they were being sold  and I felt that it would make the top half of my body disproportionately heavy and make me more likely to fall off if I got out of balance. I certainly wouldn't wear one to school in like I do my air jacket. I'm unconvinced they would ever have caught on widely however good the marketing was.


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## SpottedCat (18 July 2013)

DollyPentreath said:



			I can completely see your point S_C, but both were adamant in thinking the Exo created an increased risk of neck injury (not that I agree/disagree at this point in time). Maybe that was the BE rumour mill in action! But I can't come up with another explanation for why the pros don't wear them. Both also great riders who have competed at the highest level too. On another note, I was chatting to one of them today who seemed very positive about the motorcycle technology which is on it's way to the BP field.
		
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One pro told me they didn't look professional enough, and another thought the weight might have enough of an effect at the top levels to make a difference. 

Honestly though, I think mostly its that pros don't think they will ever have a rotational fall - neither do the rest of us! If you did think you were likely to, then you wouldn't get in the start box, the fear would be paralysing! I know we all acknowledge it 'could' happen, but do any of us think it 'will' happen? I'd guess no. I'd guess that like anything else risky, we assume it is something which will happen to other people.


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## cptrayes (18 July 2013)

Surely no-one can believe that a paramedic can pump their heart in this?


http://www.bodycage.co.uk/exo/index.html


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## SpottedCat (18 July 2013)

No, you're right it can't be done and all people who wear exos are fools. The only true path is that of the air jacket. Are we done here?

Whilst you might be right about your heart (although in mine you can actually slide your hands under the front and access my sternum no problem, but there we go), how many people eventing have had heart failure not associated with crush injuries? An incredibly small number - if any. I remember reading an article about it but can't find it.


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## teapot (18 July 2013)

cptrayes said:



			Surely no-one can believe that a paramedic can pump their heart in this?


http://www.bodycage.co.uk/exo/index.html

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Depends on how high the metal front plate comes up a person's breastbone for a start. 

To be honest though, if you're wearing a now inflated P2 and a bp, CPR still isn't going to be immediate because they've got to come off before you can start. 


ETS: just seen SC's post - there was going to say, there must be room between chest and the cage. The motion of CPR doesn't need masses of room given the chest wall and rib cage takes the pressure. Would just mean potentially kneeling in a different place.


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## popsdosh (18 July 2013)

cptrayes said:



			Surely no-one can believe that a paramedic can pump their heart in this?


http://www.bodycage.co.uk/exo/index.html

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I suspect if Laura had been wearing an exo heart massage would not have been needed so your argument is self defeating in that respect.


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## cptrayes (18 July 2013)

popsdosh said:



			I suspect if Laura had been wearing an exo heart massage would not have been needed so your argument is self defeating in that respect.
		
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Did Laura need heart massage this time? I don't think so, the discussion of heart massage was theoretical as far as I was concerned. One of her main injuries is liver damage. That cage wouldn't help that much, would it, it's far too short. 

I wonder what the death stats are for ruptured spleen or other internal bleeding compared with upper chest?

The high level riders don't want exos or they would have had them when they were on sale in shops like Derby House. On the other hand the vast majority of them wear air jackets. Laura's jacket is unlikely, in my opinion as a wearer, to have caused her more damage. The dispersal of point loading over a larger area, and the dissipation of force as the airbags deform under pressure might just have saved her life. Whatever, thank heavens she is OK.


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## Lolo (18 July 2013)

cptrayes said:



			Surely no-one can believe that a paramedic can pump their heart in this?


http://www.bodycage.co.uk/exo/index.html

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Seeing as CPR is pretty much useless (less than 30% success rate, I think in otherwise healthy and fit people with no previous cardiac history and minor trauma), I'd rather something that prevented crush injuries to start with, as those are what cause the shock that stops your heart.

A P2 will compress. You will still be squished. You'll be squished slower, which prevents minor injuries very effectively. In a crushing situation, I am hugely unconvinced by it's effectiveness. In most other falls, I genuinely support it and would prefer my sister wore one when she went over solid fences... For rotationals? Meh. A cage, or luck is what you really want.


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## popsdosh (18 July 2013)

cptrayes said:



			Did Laura need heart massage this time? I don't think so, the discussion of heart massage was theoretical as far as I was concerned. One of her main injuries is liver damage. That cage wouldn't help that much, would it, it's far too short. 

I wonder what the death stats are for ruptured spleen or other internal bleeding compared with upper chest?

The high level riders don't want exos or they would have had them when they were on sale in shops like Derby House. On the other hand the vast majority of them wear air jackets. Laura's jacket is unlikely, in my opinion as a wearer, to have caused her more damage. The dispersal of point loading over a larger area, and the dissipation of force as the airbags deform under pressure might just have saved her life. Whatever, thank heavens she is OK.
		
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Her main injury at the time was a severley bruised and collapsed lung which is why she was put in an induced coma to give it time to heal while her breathing was done for her. She was not breathing when the paramedics got to her so in theory not far from needing heart massage maybe!!!!
A lot of the top riders wear air jackets because they are paid to!!! Thats not saying there is not a use for them but dont get over carried away with thinking they can stop you being killed in a rotational fall as most likely it wont have inflated by the time the damage is done.


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## lannerch (18 July 2013)

Why does every thread like this become a competition to prove how much better the exo is to the p2, both jackets have their merits and their faults, both developed with safety in mind.
For those who really believe Laura's air jacket  did not reduced the severity of Laura's injuries are IMO lacking a lot of common sense, and intent on p2 bashing.
To be released from hospital so soon after such a bad fall is amazing , that said if Laura had been wearing an exo we will never know if her injuries would have been less or more severe. 
I would like to see more research done with the exo to dispell or prove any rumours of restriction or risk to the spine as the concept is excellent, but that doesn't mean the p2 is rubbish either. Personally at the moment I would choose the p2 but only because the majority favour .


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## Topaz Tiger (18 July 2013)

I'm not intent on P2 bashing, nor that I think the EXO is wonderful, I've just said i believe in a crush injury, the EXO is the best bet and there are obviously many different types of fall. 
My concern with the P2 is the perception that once the air jacket inflates, the rider has a cushion of air around them protecting them, but from my understanding of it, the air jacket is not rigid enough to protect the rider from the weight of a horse.
FWIW I don't wear either, I wear a racesafe, which has also had criticism against it for the various small panels potentially not dissipating the force as much as 1 large panel.


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## Lolo (18 July 2013)

Seeing as I never wear a BP, and the last BP I owned was one from the second hand rail in the dustiest corner of a tackshop which caught on my saddle if I fell off and popped open, I would argue my interest was almost entirely academic.

I'm about to start a 3rd year dissertation, and I would love to investigate the ability of various body protectors to dissipate a high impact shock load (and how to best model the loading of a variety of falls). I'm trying to work out who I need to email about it!


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## _GG_ (18 July 2013)

popsdosh said:



			I suspect if Laura had been wearing an exo heart massage would not have been needed so your argument is self defeating in that respect.
		
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Certain head injuries can cause heart to stop beating so not such a self defeating argument really. Even hats can't protect from all damage or a kick in the face.


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## Eventer96 (19 July 2013)

My parents bought me a P2 in the knowledge that it wouldn't protect me from crush injuries. As far as I'm concerned the P2 will maybe protect me from minor injuries (bruising etc.), it won't protect me from being crushed... I think you just need to hope and pray in that situation. Tried an EXO and I didn't get on with it at all, it was far too heavy for my liking. I wear a P2 to protect me from minor injuries, I'm out of eventing for a while whilst we pursue a dressage career. The risk of crush injuries is far far lower in dressage so for the time being I'm hoping I'm safe! 

I'm so pleased Laura had a lucky escape, she owes her life to luck and all the safety equipment she was wearing that day!


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## DollyPentreath (19 July 2013)

lannerch said:



			Why does every thread like this become a competition to prove how much better the exo is to the p2, both jackets have their merits and their faults, both developed with safety in mind.
For those who really believe Laura's air jacket  did not reduced the severity of Laura's injuries are IMO lacking a lot of common sense, and intent on p2 bashing.
To be released from hospital so soon after such a bad fall is amazing , that said if Laura had been wearing an exo we will never know if her injuries would have been less or more severe. 
I would like to see more research done with the exo to dispell or prove any rumours of restriction or risk to the spine as the concept is excellent, but that doesn't mean the p2 is rubbish either. Personally at the moment I would choose the p2 but only because the majority favour .
		
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FWIW I think healthy discussion on the pros and cons of both is a good thing. I don't think anyone is product bashing. 

That being said, I totally agree it's wonderful to see Laura out of hospital so soon.


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## PapaFrita (19 July 2013)

popsdosh said:



			Just backs up what I said all along when P2 said they would stop serious injury! you are still the meat in the sandwich when a horse falls on you and you still get crushed.
I am not against people using them but they should be told the truth about what they can stop happening.
		
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This is what I've always thought!! Doesn't matter if there is a 'buffer' of air, you're still compressed under half a ton of horse.


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## destiny11 (27 July 2013)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/equestrian/23466911

Thought this was relevant to this discussion.


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## Topaz Tiger (27 July 2013)

I saw that.... Even Tina Cook was recommending them quite strongly in her column in this weeks h&h.... Am beginning to wonder what everyone is seeing in them that I'm not.....


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## Lolo (27 July 2013)

But here's the thing- how does she know?! It's a hugely emotive subject for her, and she spent a lot of the time unconscious, with serious injuries. Same with paramedics saying it saved her life. Paramedics aren't the people to make that call. No one can. 

I just don't get how a P2 can prevent serious squidgery. I get how, in high impact falls where the rider hits something hard they work exceptionally well- airbags are very good at dissipating force, hence their use in cars. However, in situations where the horse and the ground are being prevented from meeting by the rider, the rider is going to take a huge compressive force. Unless they wear something that prevents that force from meeting their body, such as a cage, this is unavoidable. 

So how does the P2 prevent injuries? I think the way it deforms around your body will mean the forces are better spread out, although still there. And because of the spreading they will be marginally less high impact, although still there. 

I've done an about turn from where I stood on these jackets when they first came out and would prefer my sister to wear one if she could afford one. But I wish people would stop saying they saved a life, and other highly emotive language because there is no evidence to support this. Testimonials from event riders who are just grateful to still be alive following a horrible fall aren't helpful IMO- when was the last time an event rider sat down with a decent understanding of force dissipation and high impact loading and studied their fall to try and analyse how the P2 helped? Let me guess at never...


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## Lolo (27 July 2013)

Topaz Tiger said:



			I saw that.... Even Tina Cook was recommending them quite strongly in her column in this weeks h&h.... Am beginning to wonder what everyone is seeing in them that I'm not.....
		
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What people are seeing is "It saved my life", a statement made because she is still alive. Her BP and hat saved her life too. Some good luck too, and the quick action of highly trained paramedics.

But it's easier to advocate a P2 than it is for people to start saying "I will only compete at events where paramedics trained to this standard with easy access to good hospitals are attending", or even "I was lucky". Riders are superstitious people, no matter what anyone says, and when you're doing a sport where you know a silly mistake can end in death you'll take what you can regardless of what evidence there is. People still wear stocks to support their necks FFS.


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## TarrSteps (27 July 2013)

Genuine question. . .are there REALLY people out there who think any piece of kit is going to GUARANTEE that they walk away if a horse going 20mph lands on them?? Horses in general and eventing in particular carries significant risk - people can and do die doing it with some small regularity. I just assume participants know and assume that risk. Obviously safety equipment is a big part of staying safe but the various options have various levels and types of protection. It's personal choice what you use.

For that matter, do people believe all the advertising they read?  These are PRODUCTS. Companies are trying to SELL them to you. I'm not saying any of them are being anything less than truthful but surely it's obvious they are inclined to highlight the aspects that make consumers want to purchase their product. It seems very odd to rely on a seller to make your mind up. (Mind you, I'm a bit flummoxed when people do that when buying horses, too!)

For the people saying the P2 did not prevent injury to Laura and therefor must be of no use, how do you know? She's not dead. Seat belts save lives but no one thinks they save EVERY life!

Sorry to rant. These are useful discussions to have for exactly the reason I stated above, because the make people think and consider their options. But I think there is actually something quite dangerous when people take away the idea that the right equipment will mitigate risk.


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## Topaz Tiger (27 July 2013)

Lolo said:



			But here's the thing- how does she know?! It's a hugely emotive subject for her, and she spent a lot of the time unconscious, with serious injuries. Same with paramedics saying it saved her life. Paramedics aren't the people to make that call. No one can. 

I just don't get how a P2 can prevent serious squidgery. I get how, in high impact falls where the rider hits something hard they work exceptionally well- airbags are very good at dissipating force, hence their use in cars. However, in situations where the horse and the ground are being prevented from meeting by the rider, the rider is going to take a huge compressive force. Unless they wear something that prevents that force from meeting their body, such as a cage, this is unavoidable. 

So how does the P2 prevent injuries? I think the way it deforms around your body will mean the forces are better spread out, although still there. And because of the spreading they will be marginally less high impact, although still there. 

I've done an about turn from where I stood on these jackets when they first came out and would prefer my sister to wear one if she could afford one. But I wish people would stop saying they saved a life, and other highly emotive language because there is no evidence to support this. Testimonials from event riders who are just grateful to still be alive following a horrible fall aren't helpful IMO- when was the last time an event rider sat down with a decent understanding of force dissipation and high impact loading and studied their fall to try and analyse how the P2 helped? Let me guess at never...
		
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This is my understanding of the air jacket as well....


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## glamourpuss (27 July 2013)

Lolo the section where you said the Airjacket deforming is spreading out the force is what I think is happening in these falls. I think (but VERY happy to admit what I know about this aspect of physics could be written on the back of a stamp) that some of the kinetic energy of the falling horse is *somehow* being absorbed by the Airjacket so less force/energy is reaching the rider.
Now that's all well & good BUT several years down the line I can find no further research that has been done on air jackets particularly in crush scenarios. I think this is a really poor show from all of the manufacturers.

Even though I wear an air jacket & believe they are a step forward in safety I will stand by the saying
'The plural of anecdote is not fact'
Yes, currently we have these riders surviving pretty nasty falls & shouting 
'Yes, yes it was my Airjacket that saved me' but quite frankly I believe some further testing is long overdue. I would like test results over anecdotes please!!


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## philamena (27 July 2013)

glamourpuss said:



			Even though I wear an air jacket & believe they are a step forward in safety I will stand by the saying
'The plural of anecdote is not fact'
Yes, currently we have these riders surviving pretty nasty falls & shouting 
'Yes, yes it was my Airjacket that saved me' but quite frankly I believe some further testing is long overdue. I would like test results over anecdotes please!!
		
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I love that - "the plural of anecdote is not fact". So true. 
Plus we are really not objective about our experiences, especially traumatic ones. "If the bullet had been just an inch to the left I'd have been dead..." Yes, but if it had been an inch to the right, it'd have missed you altogether. 
You can have a truly horrible fall and die, or another truly horrible fall which looks identical and walk away a bit winded. Having been through a fall does not make us qualified to state what might or might not have otherwise happened in the same circumstances. I'd also hazard the suggestion that while I have immense respect for our paramedics and doctors and am in awe of what they can achieve, they don't have x-ray eyes and so can't tell from watching a fall whether injuries would have been worse in this instance.


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## Lolo (27 July 2013)

glamourpuss said:



			Lolo the section where you said the Airjacket deforming is spreading out the force is what I think is happening in these falls. I think (but VERY happy to admit what I know about this aspect of physics could be written on the back of a stamp) that some of the kinetic energy of the falling horse is *somehow* being absorbed by the Airjacket so less force/energy is reaching the rider.
Now that's all well & good BUT several years down the line I can find no further research that has been done on air jackets particularly in crush scenarios. I think this is a really poor show from all of the manufacturers.

Even though I wear an air jacket & believe they are a step forward in safety I will stand by the saying
'The plural of anecdote is not fact'
Yes, currently we have these riders surviving pretty nasty falls & shouting 
'Yes, yes it was my Airjacket that saved me' but quite frankly I believe some further testing is long overdue. I would like test results over anecdotes please!!
		
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This is what gets me- I've spoken to people who know stuff about engineering, about testing things like this, at length. And armed with what I said we worked out how you could model both physically and also on a computer the types of fall and how different body protectors/ airbags act. He said it would be an interesting project for someone and it's a shame I missed the boat on trying to do my dissertation on it... So someone thinks a fairly average 3rd year student could do this testing. So why hasn't it been done?!

I think a P2 helps in almost all falls aside from those where it doesn't go off until after the person has been squidged. But then if you have an outward inflating model that's probably going to cause very little damage, especially as it will immobilise you and prevent some of the flailing people coming to consciousness tend to do. 

All you can do with sports like eventing is mitigate risk, try and design it out at source and then minimise the residuals. TarrSteps summed up why the marketing for P2 and stuff makes me uneasy- it sells itself as a lifesaver, which it isn't because not much is.


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## glamourpuss (27 July 2013)

I am trauma trained & married to a trauma & orthopaedic consultant surgeon. I also have a good friend who is a consultant specialising in accident & emergency medicine including on scene treatment.
Both OH & my friend agree with me that airjackets do provide significant protection. 
Now if I had observed Laura's fall & witnessed that somehow the air jacket prevented the horse from squashing her to death then I would happily offer MY OPINION that the air jacket had saved her life...& I'm sure my OH & my friend would do the same...but that's just it, an opinion. 
Until however we get the testing that I keep banging on about I will continue to treat these testimonials as opinions (although currently they are opinions which support my choice to ride in an air jacket which is good  )
As we all know most opinions mean nothing...


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## glamourpuss (27 July 2013)

Lolo said:



			This is what gets me- I've spoken to people who know stuff about engineering, about testing things like this, at length. And armed with what I said we worked out how you could model both physically and also on a computer the types of fall and how different body protectors/ airbags act. He said it would be an interesting project for someone and it's a shame I missed the boat on trying to do my dissertation on it... So someone thinks a fairly average 3rd year student could do this testing. So why hasn't it been done?!

I think a P2 helps in almost all falls aside from those where it doesn't go off until after the person has been squidged. But then if you have an outward inflating model that's probably going to cause very little damage, especially as it will immobilise you and prevent some of the flailing people coming to consciousness tend to do. 

All you can do with sports like eventing is mitigate risk, try and design it out at source and then minimise the residuals. TarrSteps summed up why the marketing for P2 and stuff makes me uneasy- it sells itself as a lifesaver, which it isn't because not much is.
		
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I actually find it pretty insulting that these companies are almost patronising us instead of offering, what sounds like, pretty simple testing.
It's like they are saying 
'Oh no we won't bother giving our poor, thick customers proper evidence they won't understand it. Lets just show a picture of a crashing fall & a rider quote. That's all the evidence they need'  

One company sticks out as being most prolific in this


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## TarrSteps (27 July 2013)

I'm still confused. . .who is 'supposed' to be doing this testing? To do a proper on going would cost a fair bit and, frankly, there is little in it for manufactures. People are buying the product now. 

If there is a Trade Standards issue then that obviously needs to be pursued. I guess the other possibility is someone is injured in a way the jacket claims to prevent and takes them to court.


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## TarrSteps (27 July 2013)

Gp, perhaps consumers need to be more outspoken in saying they won't support the company without proof. And/or lobbying the appropriate governing bodies to insist on further testing, although this would likely have implications re restraint of trade. 

(I'm not actually arguing with your point. There isn't sufficient proof either way to confirm or deny efficacy. But that fact, at least, IS known to the consumer.)


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## glamourpuss (27 July 2013)

I agree Tarrsteps as customers maybe we should stop being so passive & demand these companies or BETA provide us with more evidence.... But then I think if you look carefully it's never actually the company making the 'it saved her life' claim but someone else (the victim, a bystander...) so I guess from that point of view the companies have nothing to prove.


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## only_me (27 July 2013)

Does noone else not notice that it is always the airjacket that saved them but not infact the actual back protector?


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## glamourpuss (27 July 2013)

only_me said:



			Does noone else not notice that it is always the airjacket that saved them but not infact the actual back protector?
		
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IMHO it is a combination of all of the safety equipment & the changes BE have made to courses (including frangible pins) 
I think as well many eventers still have the awful season of 1999 (where 5 riders died in a short space of time) pretty fresh in their mind. Plus the tragic death of Ian Olding which happened around the time that P2 was released in the UK.  All wearing body protectors but not air jackets. 
So there has been this surge of people thinking that the air jackets have been the saving factor.

What people seem to be forgetting is it isn't JUST the air jackets saving lives although the way it's being reported you would think it was!


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## dafthoss (27 July 2013)

glamourpuss said:



			Lolo the section where you said the Airjacket deforming is spreading out the force is what I think is happening in these falls. I think (but VERY happy to admit what I know about this aspect of physics could be written on the back of a stamp) that some of the kinetic energy of the falling horse is *somehow* being absorbed by the Airjacket so less force/energy is reaching the rider.
Now that's all well & good BUT several years down the line I can find no further research that has been done on air jackets particularly in crush scenarios. I think this is a really poor show from all of the manufacturers.

Even though I wear an air jacket & believe they are a step forward in safety I will stand by the saying
'The plural of anecdote is not fact'
Yes, currently we have these riders surviving pretty nasty falls & shouting 
'Yes, yes it was my Airjacket that saved me' but quite frankly I believe some further testing is long overdue. I would like test results over anecdotes please!!
		
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Lolo said:



			This is what gets me- I've spoken to people who know stuff about engineering, about testing things like this, at length. And armed with what I said we worked out how you could model both physically and also on a computer the types of fall and how different body protectors/ airbags act. He said it would be an interesting project for someone and it's a shame I missed the boat on trying to do my dissertation on it... So someone thinks a fairly average 3rd year student could do this testing. So why hasn't it been done?!

I think a P2 helps in almost all falls aside from those where it doesn't go off until after the person has been squidged. But then if you have an outward inflating model that's probably going to cause very little damage, especially as it will immobilise you and prevent some of the flailing people coming to consciousness tend to do. 

All you can do with sports like eventing is mitigate risk, try and design it out at source and then minimise the residuals. TarrSteps summed up why the marketing for P2 and stuff makes me uneasy- it sells itself as a lifesaver, which it isn't because not much is.
		
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There's very little in it for the manufacturers though. If it goes in their favour then they have just spent loads of money when the product is selling without it. If it goes against it then they have expensive research that shows their product doesn't do what they would like to think it does and they now have research that they would like to keep out of the public eye.


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## lannerch (27 July 2013)

I think the air jacket saved her or at least messiness her injuries, only a fool would say it made no difference . 
Now wether it saved her life  , and she would have died without it wearing just her normal body protector will never be known , but in Laura's case it would certainly have been touch and go!


No one is saying her normal body protector did not help. However everyone has to wear them, which is why she is saying the addition of the p2 probably saved her life.
I agree
People love to hate p2 is it because they are so expensive and they want to justify not spending the money !


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## Topaz Tiger (27 July 2013)

Sorry that is absolutely rubbish, it has absolutely nothing to do with the price for me.... And everything about whether I think it actually works.... I'm not going to keep piling stuff on myself and my horse just in case it 'might' make a difference...


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## Lolo (27 July 2013)

Considering the sheer cost of keeping a horse and eventing it, I don't think price puts that many off. It puts us off because of the lack of testing for the money- stuff that is proven to work well is money well spent...

Re. testing, I was trying to say earlier for it to be dissertation suitable at a basic level it can't cost serious money. If they were clever, they could do it very cheap comparatively on that basis...


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## lannerch (27 July 2013)

Interesting as it is the price and only the price that puts me off. 
I struggle to event , horses are so expensive every expense matters , I agree totally the air jacket can save lives at best and reduce injury at worst which is slso why motorcycles have extensively adopted it likewise .
But still I do not have one , I just cannot afford it .


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## lannerch (27 July 2013)

And if I can afford it, if I had to have it I would find the money but I live on the illusion it would not happen to me, and would rather spend my  money on something else that I enjoy buying.
That said this year I cannot afford to event!


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## teapot (27 July 2013)

Re the make of LC's BP - looking at the photos I took of her at Barbury a day before her fall, I think it's a Rodney Powell, could be wrong though. 

As for the P2s and 'could save your life', nothing's 100% effective, not even seat belts I don't think but every little helps. 

I can think of two pros who don't wear them, unless they're wearing the hybrid and I've never noticed?


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## only_me (27 July 2013)

What I meant is that the air jacket is not the only thing that saved her life; her back protector did too but there is no advertising or promotion of the back protector to say this. P2 appear to "jump on the bandwaggon" and claim to save lives when people wear them and then fall.

I have a P2 as well and think any thing that helps to reduce risk is a good thing, so am not anti P2. The eventers that have unfortunately died as a result of a fall may or may not have been saved by an airjacket but it is impossible to say so and every fall is different. I guess I take the "saved by my airjacket" with a pinch of salt - maybe saved by the paramedics, air jacket and BP may be more accurate 

I'm glad to see LC back up again and hope for a quick rehab so she can be back eventing soon


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## PaulC (27 July 2013)

Rather than getting into the discussion of which protector is best - exo, p2 etc, I would find it very interesting if an independent body did some crush testing with a dummy.

Quite a simple test really - one crash dummy full of sensors lay down on a solid surface, several types of body protectors to test and add a load the equivalent to a horse in a rotational fall. 

I few permutations could be added - ie the saddle / shoulder / rear of horse hitting the rider.

I think this test would be very valuable to rider safety, but I cant imagine any of the BP companies signing up!!


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## Lolo (27 July 2013)

PaulC, you are my kind of person  That's pretty much the set up I discussed, with methods of analysing a variety of rotational falls to try and simulate worst-case scenario loading situations to then mimic in labs...

Does AN wear one? Or Caroline Powell?


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## Rum Tum (27 July 2013)

I find it really frustrating that it is down to manufacturers/suppliers to market their safety products.  Undoubtedly EXo failed due to lack of marketing.  If they had adopted a Point 2 style marketing campaign, would they be popular now?  But when I asked BE questions on their effectiveness and possible problems, they just told me they could not get involved in a commercial product, and that I had to make up my own mind.  But how do we make an informed decision when so little info is available?  Eg Laura's fall. We know she was wearing a Point 2, but what was her other body protector and what was her hat?  Similar question re Lucinda Fredericks fall in March.  And similar info would be so useful when there are deaths.  Its not morbid, we just need to learn from what happened.  This can only be done by the governing bodies but there seems to be no appetite.  I was very heartened by the recent post about the possible development of a body protector that incorporates both Exo style frame and Point 2 air cushioning.  Now that sounds a good idea.  Would anyone else like to see BE encourage the development of such a product?


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## teapot (27 July 2013)

Lolo said:



			Does AN wear one? Or Caroline Powell?
		
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See AN was one of the pros I was thinking of and Toddy too!


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## PaulC (27 July 2013)

lolo, I didn't see your comment, great minds and all that!! (Im a Civil Engineer BTW so always dreaming up tests )

Its a shame BE haven't jumped on this idea. They have done great things with the Goodyear fence a few years ago, and frangible pins since - this seems like the next step in an area where they could really make a difference.

I always see in Eventing that these are the areas that if controlled, make a real difference in safety

1) Rider / Horse readiness for the class they enter.
2) The riders ability (which includes common sense!) - so many times you can see accidents about to happen simply in the way they are approaching a question
3) Course design
4) The unforeseen / unlucky factor!
5) Safety equipment

Now with BE, point 1) is addressed with qualifications/rules etc, and whilst riders can bend the system by entering easier events to qualify for higher classes, this is not something BE can reasonably prevent.

Point 2) well, what can I say. All riders have different abilities, some with common sense, others perhaps with less. There isn't a great deal BE can do about that other than a reactive measure of having people on the watch list. 

Point 3) I believe BE are approaching fantastically well. Aside from fence anchors for portables, frangible fences (both front and reverse pinned), polystyrene logs etc, they technical aspects have been increased, rather than big fast courses which can cause one to go splat at speed!!

Point 4) Well sometimes we just have 'bad luck' and I have seen some horrendous accidents happen in the most unlikely of places - its a sport and a dangerous one at that!!

Point 5) In any sport / industry, PPE should always be the last resort. However whilst BE have rules on the rating/BSEN of BP's and hats, I am not aware of any thorough testing that has been carried out as previously mentioned. Under HSE guidelines PPE used should be appropriate for the task you are carrying out. This is why BE will stipulate the P2 is only an additional device, rather than primary. 

It would be great if some group could carry out some testing. With credit to BE they have done an awful lot in the last few years(see link below, but I see this as one of the only areas left to significantly improve serious injury rates 

http://www.britisheventing.com/section.asp?section=700&sectionTitle=BE+Safety+Milestones

Lord I have just rambled on a bit!!


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## PaulC (27 July 2013)

PS to Rum Tum and others, I think it is very difficult for BE to get involved because of commercial reasons. Additionally, they do have a limited budget and have done an awful lot for event safety, ideas which others then use.

Perhaps the FEI, BHS/riding clubs, Pony Club, could all get involved with BE and create an Event Safety Research group. It would benefit all levels of eventing, and being a collaboration would be more independent!!


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## Lolo (27 July 2013)

Snap, only in training atm  I don't know if it's because we're taught to design out at source rather than mitigate later, and PPE is the final resort normally whereas until really recently it was the only answer. Tradition has a lot to answer for IMO!  

In our 1st year labs we did a set of experiments on applying loading to beams- pretty sure this is a set up you could adapt if nothing else... You're not needing to invent a method of getting the loading right, it's all there in almost every uni lab, just needing tweaking.


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## PaulC (27 July 2013)

Lol, oh bending beams and crushing cubes, in labs, thanks for making me feel old!! 

The ground anchors came about from us Civil Engineers - they should listen to us more


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## TarrSteps (27 July 2013)

teapot said:



			See AN was one of the pros I was thinking of and Toddy too!
		
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They are old.  Plus they have rather "carefree" temperaments (I don't mean they aren't master of attention to detail, but they have both ridden literally hundreds of horses over thousands of jumps and are very confident jockeys) from a culture that doesn't have quite the same obsession with health and safety. I would be surprised if they have done a comprehensive study of the risks and rewards of wearing air jackets, more that they rely on other aspects of their approach to keep them safe (if they think about it much at all). And, frankly, if you ride like either of those boys and have their record, then you are likely less at risk that the rest of us.

With each progression in safety equipment there have have been "early adopters" and hold outs. It was the same for newer style helmets and for body protectors. I don't think pointing to this or that rider's attitudes towards the product have any bearing in the subject. After all, as many people have said, more riders know squat about the subject.


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## teapot (27 July 2013)

TarrSteps said:



			They are old.  Plus they have rather "carefree" temperaments (I don't mean they aren't master of attention to detail, but they have both ridden literally hundreds of horses over thousands of jumps and are very confident jockeys) from a culture that doesn't have quite the same obsession with health and safety. I would be surprised if they have done a comprehensive study of the risks and rewards of wearing air jackets, more that they rely on other aspects of their approach to keep them safe (if they think about it much at all). And, frankly, if you ride like either of those boys and have their record, then you are likely less at risk that the rest of us.

With each progression in safety equipment there have have been "early adopters" and hold outs. It was the same for newer style helmets and for body protectors. I don't think pointing to this or that rider's attitudes towards the product have any bearing in the subject. After all, as many people have said, more riders know squat about the subject. 

Click to expand...

I totally agree and I did wonder when I typed those two names that if either actually come off, it'll be a horrible fall. That said Lucinda Green rides in one which makes me wonder just a little bit...


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## Rum Tum (27 July 2013)

PaulC - your comments are really interesting.  I agree that BE have taken the lead with frangible pins and I think maybe they thought other countries/associations would follow on with other ideas eg the polystyrene logs.  Have these been used at all recently?  Course design is generally safer and the pins are a huge step forward.  But years ago (after Richard Adams (?) was killed at Windsor, table fences were identified as dangerous, because if the horse gets very close and hits the front on the way up, it rolls across the table and lands on the rider the other side.  There are still table type fences on virtually every course I walk.  I know they are slightly tilted towards the takeoff side now, which makes them less upright.  But the filled in corners are often very upright and are they not effectively tables?

I would love to see crush testing on the air jackets (all brands) and also on Exo type protectors, so we could make an informed choice.  I realise that there is not a bottomless pit of money, but maybe £1 on every entry to go towards safety testing would work.  Its in everyone's interests.  I have always wondered if it shouldn't be the FEI taking the lead on this, rather than thinking its down to BE.  As you say, they spent all the money on frangible pins and now everyone uses them.  Or at least the FEI should organise some sort of 'whip round' between the eventing nations to create a pool of money for research.


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## TarrSteps (28 July 2013)

teapot said:



			I totally agree and I did wonder when I typed those two names that if either actually come off, it'll be a horrible fall. That said Lucinda Green rides in one which makes me wonder just a little bit...
		
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LG has become a big proponent of proactive safety measures these days (which wasn't always what you would have associated with her riding and teaching way back when . . .) both in her teaching and in her approach to the sport. It stands to reason she would support any and all advances. Also - I'm sure this will incite comment  - she is someone's mother. This is not to say men aren't also concerned with keeping themselves in one piece but many women riders will tell you that having kids did increase their awareness not so much of their mortality, but of the necessity of staying in one piece. 

I would say again it is not really pertinent which "name" does or does not wear an air jacket. I really don't see that they would be any more informed, on average, than any other group of riders. I do understand that emulation plays a big part in people's attitude towards things like this but then we are back to the question of how much should you rely on your own thoughts and independent investigation, and how much should you go with what other people tell you. . .


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## TarrSteps (28 July 2013)

Rum Tum said:



			PaulC - your comments are really interesting.  I agree that BE have taken the lead with frangible pins and I think maybe they thought other countries/associations would follow on with other ideas eg the polystyrene logs.  Have these been used at all recently?  Course design is generally safer and the pins are a huge step forward.  But years ago (after Richard Adams (?) was killed at Windsor, table fences were identified as dangerous, because if the horse gets very close and hits the front on the way up, it rolls across the table and lands on the rider the other side.  There are still table type fences on virtually every course I walk.  I know they are slightly tilted towards the takeoff side now, which makes them less upright.  But the filled in corners are often very upright and are they not effectively tables?

I would love to see crush testing on the air jackets (all brands) and also on Exo type protectors, so we could make an informed choice.  I realise that there is not a bottomless pit of money, but maybe £1 on every entry to go towards safety testing would work.  Its in everyone's interests.  I have always wondered if it shouldn't be the FEI taking the lead on this, rather than thinking its down to BE.  As you say, they spent all the money on frangible pins and now everyone uses them.  Or at least the FEI should organise some sort of 'whip round' between the eventing nations to create a pool of money for research.
		
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The difference though is organisations like BE are responsible for course design, they are not responsible for personal safety decisions. It's true that they have adopted rules about helmets and body protectors following on from independent safety tensing but they are not and have never been responsible for testing or approving these products. I suspect air jackets will eventually come under the same heading but body protectors were around for decades before they became mandatory and even that did not meet with universal approval at the time.

Paul's point about possible restraint of trade issues is also a factor. It isn't really up to BE to endorse a particular product or technology and, in fact, they would potentially open themselves up to censure or worse if they did. You could argue this has been done in the past but I suspect not always for wholly altruistic reasons.


Don't get me wrong, I would be interested in seeing testing results and I believe people should take safety precautions as they see fit. But I think it's dangerous to think that "they" should be ultimately responsible for issues of personal safety. Individuals don't have input into course design, they do have a choice in safety equipment.


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## Elf On A Shelf (31 July 2013)

Could I just point out that jockeys ride in bps that are about as much use as a cardboard box, they hit the grounds at higher speeds, have horses landing on them, get stood on by others et al  and generally take a pummeling yet none have died for many years - not an air jacket it sight.


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## teapot (31 July 2013)

EKW said:



			Could I just point out that jockeys ride in bps that are about as much use as a cardboard box, they hit the grounds at higher speeds, have horses landing on them, get stood on by others et al  and generally take a pummeling yet none have died for many years - not an air jacket it sight.
		
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How many fall instantly to the ground without moving/rolling out the way though? (Am aware of the two ITU inducing falls this year though).

Jockeys have momentum behind them for the most part, eventers don't with bad xc falls being from speed to zero almost instantly. Less speed, less likely to be ejected out of the saddle (along with a difference in saddle and stirrup length too...)


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## Elf On A Shelf (31 July 2013)

Very true that speed does indeed help them but I am sure you can appreciate just how sore it can be hitting the deck at speed. Both disciplines have vast differences and yet lots the same. An air jacket would have helped neither JT nor Brian prevent the injuries they did. I honestly can't understand all the fuss that isbmade over them. Sometimes less is more.


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## teapot (31 July 2013)

Oh definitely - jockeys are crazy fools IMHO and I'm amazed more bones arn't broken. Air jackets don't help when it comes to head injuries and even the best hat can only do so much.

As an aside, have the HSI hats caught on in racing yet?


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## TarrSteps (31 July 2013)

Jockeys very rarely have slow rotational falls. They are also fit, trained to fall and get lots of practice. It's true an air jacket would not likely have made a difference in the high profile cases recently but they might have saved a collate bone or some ribs, which is an issue for an amateur who has to go to work the next day and look after the kids. It's not all about dying! Jockeys also have a huge motivation not to wear anything that weighs more than a tissue!


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## Mike007 (31 July 2013)

EKW said:



			Could I just point out that jockeys ride in bps that are about as much use as a cardboard box, they hit the grounds at higher speeds, have horses landing on them, get stood on by others et al  and generally take a pummeling yet none have died for many years - not an air jacket it sight.
		
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The reason there is not an air jacket in sight is because they are banned. Conventional BP s such as race safe are used and are a darn sight better than "a cardboard box".In racing a conventional BP does what it was really designed for . To reduce the impact from hooves from following horses after a fall. They do this remarkably well actualy.A racing fall ,whilst often looking quite spectacular ,is generaly a relatively painless experience as one hits the turf (not mud stones etc) at a glancing angle and the kinetic energy is absobed slowly  over a distance. Also unlike an eventing saddle, a racing saddle is not much more than somthing to hang the stirrups from ,and one is ejected pretty early in the fall.


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## popsdosh (31 July 2013)

Point two tried to get air jackets into racing before they were ever marketed into the eventing world . They were banned at this point due to perceived safety issues with them in racing,not least being the effect the jackets going off with other horses in a race.


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## teapot (31 July 2013)

And yet their catalogue offers a racing hybrid version complete with level 1 Racesafe.


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## RunToEarth (1 August 2013)

teapot said:



			And yet their catalogue offers a racing hybrid version complete with level 1 Racesafe.
		
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IIRC when they put them to the racing industry the comment back almost immediately was that they were too baggy, and P2 had to go back and alter their design to fit tightly to the jockey and inflate outwards. They got there and then it was realised quite quickly that they would be a logistical nightmare when racing with starting gates - how many jockeys have a tactical dismount before they start? That and the fact that they spend their careers being taught how to most effectively fall from leaving the saddle and there was really no way you could roll well whilst your P2 was inflating around you. I think their ban came shortly after, after their design had been produced.

I wish the EXO had been given more of a chance. I don't wear either because I don't event although I have noticed a trent of wearing P2 out hunting which I personally would never do. I would actually like to see why would still be wearing them out of the big dogs if they removed all cash incentives and sponsorships...


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