# Spaying: keyhole vs traditional



## JennBags (22 April 2017)

Wolfie is now 5 months old, and the vets have recommended that she is spayed at 6 months, before her first season.  I was always under the impression that you were better off waiting until they'd had their first season but apparently this isn't considered necessary these days.  We will definitely get her spayed as we wouldn't breed from her as she has an undershot jaw.

Vets have recommended the laparoscopic (keyhole) surgery.  They said recovery time is much quicker, she has to be kept quiet for 10 days which will be a challenge in itself, but then she's fully recovered.  I've done some googling and it looks like the only downside with this vs traditional surgery is the cost, but there was some discussion on here about 8 years ago saying they could still suffer from a pyometra, but I am not sure that's correct.

So, knowledgeable dog owners, what are your opinions 

Here's the pup in question in the office:


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## Chiffy (22 April 2017)

Don't do it Jen. I don't understand why some vets recommend it. Let her mature first, she needs one or preferably two seasons first.


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## Clodagh (22 April 2017)

Our vets have finally put big posters up saying they no longer recommend spaying before full maturity. 6 months is nuts, IMO. Once it is done it cannot be undone, please let her have a season. Ours are done at about 18 months, depending on first season, never before 12 months old.


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## Chiffy (22 April 2017)

Glad you agree Clodagh.
I realise I hadn't answered the second question, I have no experience of keyhole but have had many, many bitches spayed the traditional way by various vets over the years, with never a problem. As soon as the anaesthetic wears off, the dog has been bright. Yes, it's a challenge to keep them quiet for 10 days while the wound heals. Lead walks only and no rough games. The wound is neat and small and heals quickly. Once stitches are out , normal life can be resumed.


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## twiggy2 (22 April 2017)

I have done a lot of research into early speying and what I found is not positive.
What I found is that it is the whole dog that is believed to be negatively effected by early speying. It is believed that the hormones 'mature' soft tissues so early neutered dogs have weaker soft tissue structures that are more prone to damage and injury. The hormones are also thought to close the growth plates at an appropriate time.
In my own experience often they never seem to mentally or physically mature if neutered early, they retain the 'soft' body look of a puppy or immature dog. Sometimes they don't seem to mentally mature either - my current dog is one that mentally is still a puppy at over three years old- she is a rescue that was speyed very young.
I believe that the hormones that are produced at maturity do more than just make bitches have a season, a bitch with puppies needs a different mindset to a carefree youngster galomping about, it is also an indictator that their body is ready for other things.
Apart from avoiding the inconvenience of a season quizz your vets as to why they think early speying is a good idea, the only reasons I would expect you to get is that it reduces the risk of mammary tumours and pyometra. It is true that mammary tumours are found to more prevalent with each season but the increase in the first 2 seasons are minimal it is not really until the bitches are becoming aged that the increase is significant,  this is the same for pyometra.
Given the choice mine would always have at least one season and if that season was before 12 months I would wait for a second.
As for key hole surgery I remember my mums surgeon saying to my mum at her pre op check that the biggest advantage of traditional surgery was they had a clearer view of what they were doing and could be sure that everything in there was normal, my mum was older and had had problems so it may have been more relevant to check her insides out but bitches tend to recover really well from the traditional method so that's what I would go for.
I can't remember the various sources of my research as it wad done for my own interest so I did not keep records.


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## twiggy2 (22 April 2017)

Duplicate post


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## twiggy2 (22 April 2017)

Clodagh said:



			Our vets have finally put big posters up saying they no longer recommend spaying before full maturity. 6 months is nuts, IMO. Once it is done it cannot be undone, please let her have a season. Ours are done at about 18 months, depending on first season, never before 12 months old.
		
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Do they give reason Clodagh?
Did you get my pm?


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## hobo (22 April 2017)

No comment on getting Wolfie spayed just that I thought Wofie was a boy dah!


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## Roxylola (22 April 2017)

Wait for maturity http://www.naiaonline.org/pdfs/LongTermHealthEffectsOfSpayNeuterInDogs.pdf lots of info here.

Essentially if you spay before maturity the growth plates close late and you end up with incorrect growth and mentally they are not mature - you risk having an over grown puppy for a long time.  

I have only had traditional spays and never had a problem with recovery.  All of mine have been back to normal in less than 10 days for sure.  Even my elderly Labrador who was about 11 when she was done!

Honestly, I would be looking for a new vet, they sound like they are more interested in making money than the long term health and well being of the animal


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## MurphysMinder (22 April 2017)

I would let her have at least one, preferably two seasons before spaying, so she is fully mature .   I believe spaying before they  have had a season almost totally removes the risk of mammary tumours,  but leaving until they are older still reduces the chance greatly, and to me has other benefits.
As regard to the different procedures,   mine have always romped back from traditional operations so unless I wanted a dog back very quickly for some reason I will stick with that.  Removing the ovaries should remove the risk of pyo either way,  but if for a reason a bit of ovary tissue is left then there is a chance of stump pyometra but i believe it is very rare.


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## Oenoke (22 April 2017)

I would wait until 18 months to 2 years old before getting her speyed.

I had 2 done traditionally and 2 done by keyhole and the keyhole is definitely a quicker recovery, the 1st bitch I had done traditionally came home and wouldn't move for a day, the 1st 1 I had done by keyhole came home and tried to jump into the top crate of my van when she came home.  All my future dogs will be done by keyhole unless their is a problem and they have to open them up.  Yes, it is more expensive, but IMO well worth it.


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## MotherOfChickens (22 April 2017)

I too would wait and I would go for keyhole surgery. I did a lot of research about spaying versus non-spaying last year and would wait for at least her first season. Most of my colleagues with bitches have had the keyhole surgery-mostly for very high energy dogs as the recovery time is faster. Personal preference though.


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## JennBags (22 April 2017)

Wow lots of helpful responses, thank you so much for all the info and advice.  It's been Mr JB who's taken her to the vets so I haven't had a chance to question them myself, but it definitely sounds like we should wait.


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## Thistle (22 April 2017)

Clodagh said:



			Our vets have finally put big posters up saying they no longer recommend spaying before full maturity. 6 months is nuts, IMO. Once it is done it cannot be undone, please let her have a season. Ours are done at about 18 months, depending on first season, never before 12 months old.
		
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Totally agree


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## Thistle (22 April 2017)

JennBags said:



			Wow lots of helpful responses, thank you so much for all the info and advice.  It's been Mr JB who's taken her to the vets so I haven't had a chance to question them myself, but it definitely sounds like we should wait.
		
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Some vets will push for early neutering as it's easy money for them.

Google early neutering and it's effects, particularly with regard to joint problems. The only thing early spaying can protect against is mammary tumours but the risks of that seem tiny compared to the problems early spaying can cause. The dog will gain protection against mammary tumours when she eventually spayed.One of the big side effects of early spaying s incontinence. Also a spayed bitch can't get pyometra but it's very unusual in a very young girl. I am in favour of spaying non breeding bitches, but not until 15 months for small breeds and 18 months or older for large breeds.


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## Moobli (22 April 2017)

I agree with everyone else who has posted already.  Wait until she has had one, preferably two, seasons before spaying.  Personally I would go with keyhole as, even though it is more expensive, it is a less invasive procedure with a much quicker recovery time.  My friend's working police dog was spayed via keyhole last year and she was back to work in two days.   

Wolfie gets more beautiful by the day


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## satinbaze (22 April 2017)

This is a very interesting article about the effects of early spay and neuter
http://www.caninesports.com/uploads/1/5/3/1/15319800/earlyspayconsiderations.pdf
My experience reflects this in that my first flatcoat was spayed before her first season, she was very immature her whole life not just mentally but physically too. She was leggy most of her life and I really struggled to keep weight on her. At 8 she developed bone cancer and although she lived until she was 10 I always wondered if the early spay was a contributory factor. My vets have now changed their policy and don't spay until after at least 1 season.


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## rara007 (22 April 2017)

Chiffy said:



			Don't do it Jen. I don't understand why some vets recommend it. Let her mature first, she needs one or preferably two seasons first.
		
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It's due to the research on the impact of spaying before/after seasons on cancers.
I'm not sure early neuter does get more money in for vets than late, many places the surgery cost is lumped by dog weight so the heavier the bitch the more that's paid. Obviously there's also some increase in drugs for the used for the vets but that's not a big cost compared to the overal price. Additionally lump removals and pyos bring in much more per op!


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## PucciNPoni (22 April 2017)

No comment regarding what age to spay, as I've not got anything useful to say but I was chatting to my vet/colleague about keyhole v traditional for my bitch (she's three, and I intend to have a litter from her this year hopefully) after she's had a litter.  

Keyhole is shorter recovery time yes.  But my vet/colleague was speaking with another colleague about this (we don't offer it at our practice) where they routinely perform keyhole and the anaesthetic time can be longer than traditional as it's quite an awkward thing to do on tilt tables tilting this way n that.  So on the balance of things, what's worse, longer anaesthetic or shorter recover.  Hm, dunno.  Still kind of on the fence.


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## blackcob (22 April 2017)

One of my colleagues has also voiced reservations about the keyhole procedure, firstly for the increased anaesthetic time and secondly from observation of some 'rocky' anaesthetics, something to do with gas toxicity from the inflation of the abdomen. Purely anecdotal but thought it worth mentioning for the sake of balanced discussion.

Again for the sake of balance I had a bitch spayed before a first season, she did go on the damage a cruciate - impossible to know how much of this is due to early neutering and how much to the fact that she has terrible conformation anyway. I didn't know enough not to buy the dog with totally upright stifles and shoulders both, and frankly thought I was buying a crossbreed, I had no idea.  

I honestly don't know what decision I'd make now, except not to have another bitch, two dogs followed that one.

And in agreement re: vet profit - if they were seeking only to make money I'm sure they'd much rather be doing the pyo and mammary strip ops at £800 a time than a routine spay at £150.


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## MotherOfChickens (22 April 2017)

satinbaze said:



			This is a very interesting article about the effects of early spay and neuter
http://www.caninesports.com/uploads/1/5/3/1/15319800/earlyspayconsiderations.pdf
My experience reflects this in that my first flatcoat was spayed before her first season, she was very immature her whole life not just mentally but physically too. She was leggy most of her life and I really struggled to keep weight on her. At 8 she developed bone cancer and although she lived until she was 10 I always wondered if the early spay was a contributory factor. My vets have now changed their policy and don't spay until after at least 1 season.
		
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my setter was also neutered young-I don't know that it was totally the wrong decision for him as he had a retained testicle (which was tiny, up near his chest cavity and a ****** to find)so it needed done at some point although it could have waited a bit maybe. He was very leggy, couldn't keep weight on him, had lots of skin allergies (and there have been links made between the immune system and sex hormones in other species), was also puppy like his whole life (but also, setter lol) and was an old dog at a young age. The current two will remain entire if I can.

Both my last practise and my current one now recommend not neutering early. I don't think vets neuter early for the money-more to be made from pyos if you want to be cynical about it. I think they are just on the frontline of having to deal with unwanted dogs, badly bred or ill thought out breedings and so there was a big push from the 90s onwards to neuter everything young. 

Aru wrote a really informative post about keyhole spay on another spay thread last year-might be worth looking up if you want detailed more info OP.


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## Clodagh (22 April 2017)

twiggy2 said:



			Do they give reason Clodagh?
Did you get my pm?
		
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I did now, sorry, I never look in the top bit of the screen as I never get any pms!
I cannot remember word for word the vets reason for their change in advice (it was very long) but mainly the benefits of allowing them to mature properly. I will grab a leaflet this week, Pen has to go and be weighed and get wormers so I am calling in.


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## ester (22 April 2017)

rara007 said:



			It's due to the research on the impact of spaying before/after seasons on cancers.
I'm not sure early neuter does get more money in for vets than late, many places the surgery cost is lumped by dog weight so the heavier the bitch the more that's paid. Obviously there's also some increase in drugs for the used for the vets but that's not a big cost compared to the overal price. Additionally lump removals and pyos bring in much more per op!
		
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Re. the cost are people with puppies considered a more captive audience who will have been visiting that particular vet regularly at that point but may feel less loyalty/have moved house 18 months down the line?


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## CorvusCorax (22 April 2017)

No way would I spay or neuter my dog so young. Have had both done, but when dogs were into adulthood.


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## horselady (29 April 2017)

They do recover quicker with keyhole surgery in my experience with cats as well as dogs.


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## eatmyshorts (3 May 2017)

Interesting thread. I wouldn't neuter so early, for reasons already stated. I've previously had bitches done after their second season, by traditional method, & not had any issues. I'm getting my Alaskan husky done in approx 3months time (she's just finished her second season) when she'll just be turning two years, & am considering the keyhole method this time. Blackcob, what are your thoughts in terms of bringing your bitches back into harness work re timescale? I know normally recovery (for traditional method) is approx 10 days, but working in harness undoubtedly puts more strain on their  body? xx


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## blackcob (3 May 2017)

I've only had the one bitch *eatmy* and never had to make the decision, as above she was spayed at around six months and didn't start work until well beyond a year, and as a newbie to the sport she wasn't racing in any way competitively until a couple of years after that (not sure we were ever competitive but you know what I mean  ). 

Therefore this is purely conjecture but I'd probably follow the agility model and allow at least four weeks. 10 days seems optimistic even for a 'normal' dog, whether keyhole or traditional it's still a considerable abdominal surgery.


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## eatmyshorts (3 May 2017)

blackcob said:



			Therefore this is purely conjecture but I'd probably follow the agility model and allow at least four weeks. 10 days seems optimistic even for a 'normal' dog, whether keyhole or traditional it's still a considerable abdominal surgery.
		
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Yep, this was my concern & reason for considering keyhole this time. She's one of my leads dogs so works pretty hard. Because of the timing of her most recent season, if all goes to plan, we should still have about 2months to start of racing season, so we should be ok i think.  I'd always rather err on the side of caution of course.


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