# Lennox



## Amymay (10 July 2012)

Anyone know what the latest news is?


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## lexiedhb (10 July 2012)

Are they not still trying to get them to allow him to be rehomed in the usa?


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## Copperpot (10 July 2012)

Last I heard they refused that request. They also refused the family the chance to say goodbye. And to have the body back after. I feel they are trying to
cover up the fact that he is either already dead or is in terrible condition. People are still trying to get them to change their minds thou.


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## CorvusCorax (10 July 2012)

He is not dead yet AFAIK


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## Lady La La (10 July 2012)

Well there is this picture going around on facebook, but I have no idea if this is actually him, and how old it is, when it was taken etc. 
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=383892485009067&set=o.295826380473987&type=1&theater 

There are quite a few untruths going around on fb about him going off to America etc, so its really hard to know what is fact and what isn't at the moment.


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## CorvusCorax (10 July 2012)

That pic has been about for a few weeks - TBH I don't think the American thing is legally possible, that's like saying someone in jail in the UK could be sent to the USA and life a free life if the crime they committed here was not a crime in the USA.
They chose to take the case to the high court, the high court made a decision.


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## Jingleballs (10 July 2012)

Not sure what the current status is - I've only really just heard of this story but it is really heartbreaking.  

Poor boy!


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## Red30563 (10 July 2012)

Victoria Stilwell is working on the case, and supporting the calls for him to be relocated to the USA. She posted this a few days ago and keeps her FB page up to date with any developments.

http://positively.com/2012/07/04/lennoxs-last-chance/

http://www.facebook.com/VictoriaStilwell?ref=ts


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## Lady La La (10 July 2012)

CaveCanem said:



			That pic has been about for a few weeks
		
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Sorry, I only came across it on facebook the other day  
If the decision has been made, I'm not sure what it is people are trying to appeal against? Surely just better to let the poor lad die now?


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## Dobiegirl (10 July 2012)

Belfast Telegraph Write About Lennox: Belfast City Council Refuse To Meet With Victoria Stilwell. NI Courts Confirm Belfast City Council Have The Power To Release Lennox If They Wanted To: First Minister Peter Robinson Urges Belfast City Council To Use The Offer Of Rehoming Lennox With Television Celebrity Victoria Stilwell: Tourists Say They Will Boycott Northern Ireland If Belfast City Council Refuse Offer Of Rehoming: Animal Rights Activists Say It Is Will Be Hard To Forget If Lennox Is Murdered: Global Media Awaiting Decision By Belfast City Council :: http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/n...s-plea-for-death-row-dog-lennox-16183050.html


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## EAST KENT (10 July 2012)

Whatever the dog has/has`nt done he deserves better housing than that pictured. Bull terriers and their cousins need a good soft bedding area,such as office shredded paper,a heat lamp and a separate toilet area.If they DON`T get this ..then the disgusting body condition of this dog will result.I would describe  this dog`s condition as worthy of prosecution.How, may I ask,is a dog supposed to curl up and be warm on sawdust? How can he sleep without inhaling the stuff?? Bloody cruel in my opinion.


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## lexiedhb (10 July 2012)

It's now getting to the point where i just wish someone would put the dog out of his misery...............


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## CorvusCorax (10 July 2012)

Today is the deadline for any legal objections so theoretically he could be PTS any time after midnight tonight.


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## cremedemonthe (10 July 2012)

lexiedhb said:



			It's now getting to the point where i just wish someone would put the dog out of his misery...............
		
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That's how I feel too, what state is he going to be in mentally if he is let out?


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## stencilface (10 July 2012)

Its really difficult, I can see how the best route for the dog atm may be pts, just to end his suffering, however I would still support a rescue of him to anywhere, somewhere he can live out his days in peace, and hopefully be rehabilitated as he surely will need some after his stay in kennels.

I definitely think the best think politically is to not pts, I can't see how this would ever be good for Belfast's reputation - things go global now very quickly, you can't just do things like this in a western country and hope that people will not notice and/or forget


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## lexiedhb (10 July 2012)

I just wonder about his mental state. Physically yes he could be rehabbed with decent food, warmth etc- mentally will be a much longer slower process, and he may never be the dog he once was again. personally i could not have allowed my dog to suffer this long- despite it meaning "backing down"


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## Amymay (10 July 2012)

lexiedhb said:



			I just wonder about his mental state. Physically yes he could be rehabbed with decent food, warmth etc- *mentally will be a much longer slower process, and he may never be the dog he once was again.* personally i could not have allowed my dog to suffer this long- despite it meaning "backing down"
		
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Yes, at this stage this would by my worry too.


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## EAST KENT (10 July 2012)

Bullies are often a constant surprise though,they can go through Hell but quickly revert back to a good home dog,seems they appreciate care and comfort,and I don`t think this one would prove any different,poor lad.


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## muddygreymare (10 July 2012)

Apparently a decision is being made tonight. I feel so sorry for him, he's done nothing wrong!


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## ChesnutsRoasting (10 July 2012)

Dobiegirl said:



			Belfast Telegraph Write About Lennox: Belfast City Council Refuse To Meet With Victoria Stilwell. NI Courts Confirm Belfast City Council Have The Power To Release Lennox If They Wanted To: First Minister Peter Robinson Urges Belfast City Council To Use The Offer Of Rehoming Lennox With Television Celebrity Victoria Stilwell: Tourists Say They Will Boycott Northern Ireland If Belfast City Council Refuse Offer Of Rehoming: Animal Rights Activists Say It Is Will Be Hard To Forget If Lennox Is Murdered: Global Media Awaiting Decision By Belfast City Council :: http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/n...s-plea-for-death-row-dog-lennox-16183050.html

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So BCC have a choice. I hope they make the right and proper decision. Allow Lennox to be rehomed and the bad publicity with quieten down, destroy Lennox and the 5hit will just keep on coming and tarnish the individuals responsible  reputations forever. I bet that dopey dog warden - name please - is rueing the day she made the biggest mistake of her 'career'.


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## stencilface (10 July 2012)

Is there a link to the measurements anywhere, I'm interested to see if mine would be classed as dangerous if its all based on head/jaw/body dimensions?


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## Dobiegirl (10 July 2012)

Official Statement From Lennox's Family:

We would like to take this opportunity to thank you all again for your messages of support. We are sorry to say at the present time Belfast city council seem to be intent on killing our boy. Despite previous assurances otherwise, we have been denied the opportunity to say goodbye. We have also been told that we cannot collect his body and bring Len home. We have been informed however that we will receive "some" ashes in the mail


How sick is this.


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## ladyt25 (10 July 2012)

Disgusting!


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## ladyt25 (10 July 2012)

I really do not understand why the council seem to have made such an example of this poor dog. In my mind the way he has been kept is a welfare issue in itself. People get prosecuted for keeping dogs in that manner so how on earth has that been allowed?? This story angers and upsets me so much.


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## ladyt25 (10 July 2012)

Well, I got annoyed so thought i woud write to the council myself. For no other reason than I want to know the logic behind what they are doing/have done. I just want to see if I get any reply really. Do they actually know how many people are aware ofr what's going on?


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## wipeout (10 July 2012)

Stencilface said:



			Is there a link to the measurements anywhere, I'm interested to see if mine would be classed as dangerous if its all based on head/jaw/body dimensions?
		
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Page 16 on this link:
http://www.defra.gov.uk/publications/files/dogs-guide-enforcers.pdf


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## Seapony (10 July 2012)

Sadly for Lennox and his owners,I feel BCC have made their decision and will not be urned from it. I just hope his end comes swift and with more dignity then his time in their "care".

_However_ I do fear for the future.
AFAIK Lennox has committed no crime bar looking as he does(can't remember any allegation of aggressive behaviour, except from the "expert who was fighting offaffectionate behaviour in the photos),the very idea that normal pet dogs could be stolen from their owners on this basis is horrific!


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## bonny (10 July 2012)

Am I the only person who is amazed that so many people have jumped on an emotional bandwagon about the fate of one dog ....only in the uk !  Meantime 100's of dogs have been pts because no one wanted them or they were the wrong type or whatever.  Frankly if Lennox is of a banned type and was considered dangerous I think he should have been pts years ago, I doubt the authorities were going down that road for any other reason.  The world has gone mad .....


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## EAST KENT (10 July 2012)

wipeout said:



			Page 16 on this link:
http://www.defra.gov.uk/publications/files/dogs-guide-enforcers.pdf

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   When the pit first came into UK I boarded quite a few of them,their character not being very different from my own bull terriers,brighter of course! Now,one I  boarded often was a typical red nose yellow colour..my point is ,she was definitely the real mccoy,her sire was a famous fighting dog,but square..no.She was whippy and agile,able to turn in her own length,so not short backed and "square" as the DEFRA description at all.She was absolutely charming by the way.


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## Copperpot (10 July 2012)

Yes Bonny it may be just one dog as you put it, BUT it is what it means to anyone with a bull breed. That they can be taken of you for no reason other than based on a few measurements. Tomorrow it could be my dog, or yours .... Think of the bigger picture.


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## bonny (11 July 2012)

Copperpot said:



			Yes Bonny it may be just one dog as you put it, BUT it is what it means to anyone with a bull breed. That they can be taken of you for no reason other than based on a few measurements. Tomorrow it could be my dog, or yours .... Think of the bigger picture.
		
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I don't for a minute think that's what this is about....I think it's been a brilliant pr exercise which has reached alot of people thanks to facebook etc. The rule about having a pitbull type dog was there before and will be there after Lennox has gone and I don't think his death will make any difference.


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## Copperpot (11 July 2012)

A pitbull type dog exactly. I see many dogs which could be classed as that. But I would imagine they are not. I for one do not agree with destroying a dog based on looks and not actions.


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## EAST KENT (11 July 2012)

Don`t believe in racial discrimination in men or dogs.There will be a backlash BCC.


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## lexiedhb (11 July 2012)

bonny said:



			I don't for a minute think that's what this is about....I think it's been a brilliant pr exercise which has reached alot of people thanks to facebook etc. The rule about having a pitbull type dog was there before and will be there after Lennox has gone and I don't think his death will make any difference.
		
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Only someone who has never owned a Bully and never wishes to could say this. 

I am torn between wanting whats best for lennox who has suffered in the hands of these eejits and the thought that dog wardens everywhere will be seizing family pets for no good reason. He was KNOWN as type before all this, but was leashed and muzzled in public- as the law requires. Is it not true his Litter mate was deemed NOT of type? how daft is that.

To me this law is the same as saying ALL muslims should be arrested for terrorism, despite the vast majority having done nothing wrong.


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## Amymay (11 July 2012)

Latest from FB from Victorial Stilwell:




			As far as the family know Lennox is to be put down at 7am this morning, around now. I am sick to my stomach. This case was lost the moment Lennox walked out the door with the Belfast Dog Wardens two years ago. I am disgusted at the Belfast City Council's inhumanity and basic common decency. They defend themselves by saying they are following law and they have to keep the public safe by doing this. They refused my offer to take him to a sanctuary in the U.S. where he would be away from the public and in peace, even though he is not a dangerous dog. They consistently refused to allow the family to see Lennox and say good bye to their dog and to have his body in the event that the deed is done. I now await news from the family.
		
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## lexiedhb (11 July 2012)




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## Jingleballs (11 July 2012)

Very sad


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## Copperpot (11 July 2012)

Disgraceful. If it has happened RIP Lennox  xx


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## MurphysMinder (11 July 2012)

Unfortunately Lennox isn't the first dog to have been seized just because of how he looks, nor will he be the last.  His case has become very high profile but I recall when the DDA first came in there were many "innocent" dogs seized and pts and I suspect it has being going on ever since.
I think BCC have acted atrociously in all this, however I do not agree with the calls I have seen on some sites to boycott Belfast etc.  I am sure there are plenty of people in Belfast who are supporters of Lennox, why should their businesses be affected by people not visiting the city.


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## CorvusCorax (11 July 2012)

He has been PTS.


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## Amymay (11 July 2012)

CaveCanem said:



			He has been PTS.
		
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Source please??

Got it now.


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## CorvusCorax (11 July 2012)

Belfast City Council. Statement arrived about five minutes ago.


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## stencilface (11 July 2012)

Well I hope they do the decent thing now and return his body to the owners, although I know they won't hes probably in a terrible condition


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## paulineh (11 July 2012)

What statement I presume he has been PTS


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## Amymay (11 July 2012)

BCC Statement:




			Full statement from Belfast City Council in relation to Lennox the Dog ******

Belfast City Council confirmed today that the dog Lennox, an illegal pit-bull terrier type, has been humanely put to sleep. This was in accordance with the Order of the County Court which was affirmed by the Northern Ireland Court of Appeal.

Whilst there is an exemption scheme to which dogs of this type (pit-bull terrier type) may be admitted as an alternative to destruction, there were no such measures that could be applied in this case that would address the concerns relating to public safety. The Council&#8217;s expert described the dog as one of the most unpredictable and dangerous dogs he had come across.

Over the past two years, Council officials have been subjected to a sustained campaign of abuse including threats of violence and death threats. The Council has been in ongoing contact with the PSNI in relation to that.

The Council regrets that the court action was necessary but would emphasise that the safety of the public remains its key priority.
		
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## paulineh (11 July 2012)

Thanks I've just found it on their website 

A dreadful thing and I feel so sorry for the family


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## djlynwood (11 July 2012)

Very sad, poor boy.

 "The Councils expert described the dog as one of the most unpredictable and dangerous dogs he had come across" 

I have not heard this mentioned about him before.


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## Amymay (11 July 2012)

djlynwood said:



			Very sad, poor boy.

 "The Councils expert described the dog as one of the most unpredictable and dangerous dogs he had come across" 

I have not heard this mentioned about him before.
		
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And apparently another 'expert' was terrified of him.  So terrified, that they posed for pictures cuddling and petting him......

What a sham!!!!!


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## muddygreymare (11 July 2012)

I know Amymay, it's awful. If she was that scared she wouldn't go withing 100m of him! It's so sad, why can't they realise that it's DEED not breed! The worst thing is that him and his owners were put through hell even though he was totally innocent, and other non pitbull types dont go through the same if they cause harm! 

RIP Lennox xxxx


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## Jingleballs (11 July 2012)

I've only recently heard of this poor dog and honestly the whole thing is heartbreaking.

Now after 2 years while his family and friends have fought to get him released and he has suffered in kennels he's finally been destroyed.

In hindsight it would have been kinder just to pts sleep sooner - I dread to think how miserable his last years have been compared to the warm family home that was all that he knew.

RIP Lennox


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## Lady La La (11 July 2012)

RIP Lennox.


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## ladyt25 (11 July 2012)

Disgusted


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## Native Speaker (11 July 2012)

RIP Lennox. 

And heartfelt condolences to his family and all who so gallantly fought his cause.  

C xx


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## CorvusCorax (11 July 2012)

It is tragic but some of the 'supporters' are getting out of hand, there are death threats flying around today, and there has been a hoax bomb alert at BCC.
None of these people (no offence, many of them 'Plastic Paddies' from across the pond) gave a toss when people in Belfast were dying daily and I am sure they would be better employed and would better honour Lennox trying to assist the thousands of dogs which are PTS in pounds and shelters up the street from them instead of sitting on the internet threatening to kill people.


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## Dobiegirl (11 July 2012)

Its envitiable this is going to attract the crazies, I think its wrong to punish Belfast in this way with the Boycott, I think when the elections come up people should vote out the people who are now on the council. These are the people that need punishing not by violence or coercian but rather through the ballot box.


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## Amymay (11 July 2012)

I agree CC.


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## MurphysMinder (11 July 2012)

I have just seen a post on another site calling for a boycott of London Olympics! I agree it is getting silly now


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## CorvusCorax (11 July 2012)

It is nothing to do with individual councillors, may of whom were against the decision to PTS Lennox.

The council dog wardens enforced already exisiting legislation. 
It is the legislation that has to change and that has to be done via political lobbying, not through petitions or Facebook. It would be better to approach councillors and assembly members and MPs and put forward a coherent case.

I do not agree with what happened to Lennox and I was once a staunch supporter of the campaign...I think it was badly handled on all sides and the court decision sets a dangerous precedent for bull breed owners.

But the current craziness is just out of hand. Re the boycott, I would not be worried about people who don't seem to know where on the map Belfast or indeed Ireland north or south is anyway, people who thought they could email the Queen to get her involved and people contacting courts in a completely different country and jurisdiction, not paying a visit.


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## ChesnutsRoasting (11 July 2012)

RIP Lennox

Failed by self-righteous, egotistical plebs.


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## Cedars (11 July 2012)

All this because of some stupid macho comment. 

RIP Lennox.


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## milo'n'molly (11 July 2012)

The point is this dog had a family who wanted him and had abided by the rules


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## Amymay (11 July 2012)

milo'n'molly said:



			The point is this dog had a family who wanted him *and had abided by the rules*

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Apparently not.


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## Lady La La (11 July 2012)

milo'n'molly said:



			The point is this dog had a family who wanted him and had abided by the rules
		
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Yeah, I think people are up to speed on what the point is, but talk of Boycotting Belfast, and the London Olympics and so on is far from helpful. Death threats and bomb scares is just insane.  

Either way, Rest in Peace Lennox, although I suspect you probably have been for some time.


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## lilyoftheincas (11 July 2012)

RIP Lennox, I actually don't know anything about this story apart from the odd fb update from a celeb vet who was trying to save him. Can anyone enlighten me?


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## ChesnutsRoasting (11 July 2012)

amymay said:



			Apparently not.
		
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Hadn't they?


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## mollichop (11 July 2012)

What a **** hand of cards he was dealt :-( thoughts are with those who fought so hard for this boy who did not deserve these last 2 years. 
So sad his family could not be with him at the end - sweet dreams Lennox x


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## Tormenta (11 July 2012)

Lennox, I as a dog owner, do not care for the warring words between people, who was to blame for what, how your temperament deteriorated, what you looked like or who the bad guy is in all of this.  I am just so sorry that you suffered and I have no doubt that you did. 

I hope you are at peace now, enjoy Rainbow Bridge handsome boy.


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## blackcob (11 July 2012)

Just posted by Victoria Stilwell on FB:

"I am so disgusted and want everyone to know how low Belfast City Council have stooped. 

The Barnes family heard about the death of their beloved dog through me because I had been told by a source at BBC Radio Ulster. After what the council put the family through they didn't even have the decency to inform the family first before everyone else know. 

Someone involved in this mess needs to lose their job. If this is the way they represent their citizens then Belfast beware. Belfast City Council should hang their heads for the shameful and insensitive way they have handled this. 

Heartless doesn't even begin to describe the people surrounding this case. Appalling and I can assure you, this will NEVER be forgotten!"


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## Dobiegirl (11 July 2012)

The Lennox site have also just posted that BCC wont return Lennoxs collar to the Barnes family.

Whatever the ins and outs of this case BCC have behaved completely without feeling and quite frankly are oblivious to the furore their behaviour has caused.


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## TuscanBunnyGirl (11 July 2012)

Dobiegirl said:



			The Lennox site have also just posted that BCC wont return Lennoxs collar to the Barnes family.
		
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ARGHHHHH    this whole story has made me so damn angry!! That poor poor dog, my heart breaks for him  RIP Lennox 


just to add...does any of this seem really 'odd' to anyone else... they won't return the collar...erm why?! Seems very strange to me, perhaps they are trynig to cover something up?.. hmm


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## itsonlyme (11 July 2012)

It's all very dodgy if you ask me. They're either totally heartless & dead inside OR Lennox was pts a while ago OR they don't want anybody seeing the state of him 

They're targeting the wrong dog owners here. It's the gangs of lads, walking the streets, using their dogs as weapons who need the dogs removing from them. 

My cousins dog was seized by the police for being of 'pitbull type'. She got him back though. I was always under the impression that even if they ARE an illegal breed, they can be kept as long as they're neutered, microchipped & muzzled in public places? Is this not the case?
I know a staffy x pitbull. Known him since he was a pup. He's probably about ten now. Honest to god, he is the daftest most loveliest dog you could ever meet. It's just when they get in the wrong hands....


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## Blanche (12 July 2012)

RIP Lennox.


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## gracey (12 July 2012)

R.I.P beautiful boy ..you didn't deserve any of it ..


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## Alec Swan (12 July 2012)

All so often,  campaigns such as this,  become bigger than the subject.  I wonder just how much interest *some* of the campaigners actually had in the dog.  Far too many who've acted and spoken,  ostensibly on behalf of the dog,  have sabotaged any chance of reprieve.  By going public,  Victoria Stillwell added further nails to his coffin.

It isn't the fault of BCC,  it's a court decision.  The poor old chap's dead.  That's it.

Alec.


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## CorvusCorax (12 July 2012)

Interesting to note that Stilwell and Milan were contacted very early on in the campaign but only chose to get involved at a late stage when there was lots more publicity and the decision had been taken to higher courts and was pretty much irreversible. Anyhoo...


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## EAST KENT (12 July 2012)

Sorry,disagree.That dog was not dangerous,having seen his "assessment" vid,where he is slapped down and does not react.It was of a submissive polite dog hoping for a treat.On it they based their assessment as unpredictable. This BSL law is nothing more than racial prejudice with dogs,and it needs to stop .BCC were given the option to get the dog off their patch and into a professional rehab home,they could have scored myriad points for humanity if they had.As it was the usual pig headed N. I. nature took  over. I`d be far more worried about a blasted time bomb border collie biting me than one of these guys,and about bull breeds I do know quite a bit.


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## bonny (12 July 2012)

EAST KENT said:



			Sorry,disagree.That dog was not dangerous,having seen his "assessment" vid,where he is slapped down and does not react.It was of a submissive polite dog hoping for a treat.On it they based their assessment as unpredictable. This BSL law is nothing more than racial prejudice with dogs,and it needs to stop .BCC were given the option to get the dog off their patch and into a professional rehab home,they could have scored myriad points for humanity if they had.As it was the usual pig headed N. I. nature took  over. I`d be far more worried about a blasted time bomb border collie biting me than one of these guys,and about bull breeds I do know quite a bit.

Click to expand...

Serious question for you then .....why was the dangerous dog act brought in to cover pitbulls and other fighting dogs and not border collies ?


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## gracey (12 July 2012)

the dangerous dogs act was bought in as a knee jerk reaction! it was very badly thought out (or not thought out) and worded. bully's are a fab breed of dog, .. like any dog .. in the right hands they are fantastic, we look at the wrong end of the lead .. alsatians and  rottweilers and dobermans were all victimised and thought to be devil dogs too ..thankgod we still had common sense back then .. otherwise we would be several breeds down, ...and the next breed (and there will be a next breed) ..it might be your dog of choice


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## Dobiegirl (12 July 2012)

http://networkedblogs.com/zNR4K


This is really interesting and gives a real insight into aggressive dogs.


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## bonny (13 July 2012)

gracey said:



			the dangerous dogs act was bought in as a knee jerk reaction! it was very badly thought out (or not thought out) and worded. bully's are a fab breed of dog, .. like any dog .. in the right hands they are fantastic, we look at the wrong end of the lead .. alsatians and  rottweilers and dobermans were all victimised and thought to be devil dogs too ..thankgod we still had common sense back then .. otherwise we would be several breeds down, ...and the next breed (and there will be a next breed) ..it might be your dog of choice 

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I appreciate it was a rushed through and fairly unworkable act but it was brought in for a reason.....but what I was asking was if collies are as dangerous as pitbulls why they weren't included ?


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## CorvusCorax (13 July 2012)

On the DDA - anyone also know why most of the other breeds included on the list had barely set paw in the UK and were pretty much unheard of - and still are, to most people? Why 'ban' a breed of dog no one really owned anyway?!

Oh and if anyone reading this has been phoning or emailing any vets who they think 'might' have administered the injection, please don't, vital test results are being blocked/delayed from getting through to clients with ill pets.


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## bonny (13 July 2012)

I think it was because they were beginning to come into the country and maybe would have become the next fashionable breed...at least the act worked to stop that happening.


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## Dobiegirl (13 July 2012)

I did see a post from Save Lennox asking people not to ring vets as it was causing vets to miss vital tests results, I did think it was a stupid thing to do in the first place, as was the idea to ring all crematoriums to ask if they had a dog of Lennoxs description come in.


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## bonny (13 July 2012)

Dobiegirl said:



			I did see a post from Save Lennox asking people not to ring vets as it was causing vets to miss vital tests results, I did think it was a stupid thing to do in the first place, as was the idea to ring all crematoriums to ask if they had a dog of Lennoxs description come in.
		
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People are weird .....that's all.


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## CorvusCorax (13 July 2012)

Suppose so Bonny re the DDA.


Re the continuing online hysteria, I thiefed this comment from a newspaper comments section, food for thought...

*If everyone who 'phoned the world, emailed the world, tweeted the world...had switched off their phone/mobile/internet services for a month and donated the cash they spent on them to the Barnes, they could have engaged Max Clifford & Mishcon de Reya, it might not have made the difference but it would have been hellish better than sending people boxes of poop and all the other fantastic actions carried out in the dogs name. 

But then that wouldn't have been what it was all about for them... It's got bugger all to do with this former dog. It's about them, about being "in on" something and now that the dénouement has been played, there's panic and every effort in the world to stop the party ending. 
*


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## bonny (13 July 2012)

CaveCanem said:



			Suppose so Bonny re the DDA.


Re the continuing online hysteria, I thiefed this comment from a newspaper comments section, food for thought...

*If everyone who 'phoned the world, emailed the world, tweeted the world...had switched off their phone/mobile/internet services for a month and donated the cash they spent on them to the Barnes, they could have engaged Max Clifford & Mishcon de Reya, it might not have made the difference but it would have been hellish better than sending people boxes of poop and all the other fantastic actions carried out in the dogs name. 

But then that wouldn't have been what it was all about for them... It's got bugger all to do with this former dog. It's about them, about being "in on" something and now that the dénouement has been played, there's panic and every effort in the world to stop the party ending. 
*

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It is just mass hysteria....all those people who never met the dog, had nothing to do with him and didn't actually have any idea about his aggression or lack of it.
Facebook sometimes has alot to answer for.  It might be boring but think of how much good could have been done if all that so called caring had instead gone on the plight of dogs in general in this country.  Why do so few people care about all the dogs who lose their live's every day simply because they are homeless and unwanted instead of jumping onto a crazy bandwagon about one dog who was doomed from the start....


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## Dobiegirl (13 July 2012)

Bonny if all this fuss and furore on fb helps bring about a change to the BSL law that can only be a good thing.

Its a national scandal that so many healthy dogs of any breed are being put to sleep everyday thats why 2 of my dogs are rescues.


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## bonny (13 July 2012)

Dobiegirl said:



			Bonny if all this fuss and furore on fb helps bring about a change to the BSL law that can only be a good thing.

Its a national scandal that so many healthy dogs of any breed are being put to sleep everyday thats why 2 of my dogs are rescues.
		
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I don't think for a minute it will bring about any changes to the law, why should it ? I don't think people on the whole care at all about the law or even stop to think about it. Alot of people simply became sheep and joined in the uproar about one dog as if somehow that was what mattered.


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## EAST KENT (13 July 2012)

Strange act the DDA,it was brought about after a couple of Rotties killed a child known to them;not even a bull breed FFS! Another "incident" involving a pit and a little Indian girl ,the press said the dog was "tempted away" by chocolate.Oh please,if a pit is genuinely in red zone he won`t even care about chocolate or anything else for that matter,fact,the dog concerned was not red zone.
 Although the knee jerk reaction banned some breeds already here,there are other equally well armed dogs being imported as we write..for instance the bullykutta.This is a ginormous Pakistan fighting dog,not on any list,but potentially lethal..IN THE WRONG HANDS. Because not many know anything about it it`s existance does`nt bother the authorities.
 And of course various crosses are being done to produce dogs quite as efficent as a pit could be..in the wrong hands.
 Any breed can be dangerous,some are better armed than others,but in every single case it is the human that is at fault.


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## milo'n'molly (13 July 2012)

That's the point, it's the wrong hands that's the problem and its them who choose the bull type dogs to look hard. The nastiest most aggressive dog I have ever met was a Yorkshire terrier and it got away with it because of its size but when it went to bite people the intention was to do harm. The dogs banned are the ones who appeal to divs (not saying the only people who like these dogs are the morons who mishandle them but these people are after a status dog who looks the part and wouldn't deliberately choose a border collie or a Yorkshire terrier


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## blackcob (13 July 2012)

Dobiegirl said:



http://networkedblogs.com/zNR4K


This is really interesting and gives a real insight into aggressive dogs.
		
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The video of him evaluating the sibe has actually shaken me a little bit. Put either of my dogs (and R especially) in a pen with a stranger and they would act in a very similar manner. Yet that dog had been seized because he was considered aggressive enough to pose a danger to society?

I know that appropriating that 'first they came for the...' quotation is out of order but. Y'know.


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## EAST KENT (13 July 2012)

And on that "assessment" they branded him inpredictable and dangerous! Just a dog being politely submissive hoping if he is a good dog he will get the profered treat. Blooming unbelievable.


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## Copperpot (13 July 2012)

The assessment video I have seen of Lennox shows no aggression whatsoever. It is not just about Lennox it is about any dog be it a cross breed who looks a certain way. I have a staffy x as do many others and the worry is someone could decide they are a pitbull type, seize them, assess them and pts, whether they show aggression or not. My dogs are not aggressive in anyway but by the looks of things that doesn't matter.


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## Amymay (13 July 2012)

Channel 4 are interested in doing a Dispatched investigation in to BCC.


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## Copperpot (13 July 2012)

I read that too Amymay. It said they needed people to email. I just can't understand why they can't even have his collar back. Be interesting if Channel 4 did investigate.


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## misterjinglejay (13 July 2012)

blackcob said:



			The video of him evaluating the sibe has actually shaken me a little bit. Put either of my dogs (and R especially) in a pen with a stranger and they would act in a very similar manner. Yet that dog had been seized because he was considered aggressive enough to pose a danger to society?

I know that appropriating that 'first they came for the...' quotation is out of order but. Y'know.
		
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That is a bit worrying - it just looked like a typical, excited sibe. Nice dog.

What I'm concerned about is the general direction of the BSL. How many breeds are going to end up on the list, especially with BYB not looking at the temprament of breeding stock, or home/character checking of the buyers. 

Sibes and mals, for example, are a favourite of BYB's, and I'm hearing everyday now, of people buying them without doing their homework on the breeds, and not being able to cope with the hyper energy or hyper sensitivity of these dogs. The dog is misunderstood, and confused; it bites someone in excitement or fear, and then it's 'dangerous', and rehomed or given away!

Thus you get a very confused, high energy, highly sensitive, and possibly scared dog - not a good combination in anyone's books.

Obviously, this happens with all breeds, not just my own, but how soon before we/you have wardens knocking on our/your door, quoting the BSL, wanting to take your friend!


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## Copperpot (13 July 2012)

Exactly MisterJay! And this is why BSL is every dog owners issue not just bull breeds. I hear the hoodies who have ruined the reputation of the staffy are turning to huskies etc now. I hope not or else another lovely dog will have its good reputation ruined


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## misterjinglejay (13 July 2012)

Copperpot said:



			Exactly MisterJay! And this is why BSL is every dog owners issue not just bull breeds. I hear the hoodies who have ruined the reputation of the staffy are turning to huskies etc now. I hope not or else another lovely dog will have its good reputation ruined 

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Absolutely, CP, even to the extent of stealing them from people's hands; there's been verified reports of walkers being held while their dogs are taken. We've all been 'advised' not to walk them alone ( I can't, I have stark raving mad mals, so have to enrole my OH as co-walker/dragger  ), but it makes you realise how scarey it's getting.

Apparently, the a*******s use them as bait dogs because they will scream and enrage the fighting dogs even more!


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## Dobiegirl (13 July 2012)

http://savelennox.com/2011/10/11/statement-on-lennox-by-sarah-fisher/



This is a very good piece by Sarah Fisher, in particular the part when she is told that he had bitten someone and then after her assessment was told he hadnt. I know its old but it does paint a picture of Lennox of being a non aggressive dog.


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## Seapony (13 July 2012)

bonny said:



			It is just mass hysteria....all those people who never met the dog, had nothing to do with him and didn't actually have any idea about his aggression or lack of it.
Facebook sometimes has alot to answer for.  It might be boring but think of how much good could have been done if all that so called caring had instead gone on the plight of dogs in general in this country.  Why do so few people care about all the dogs who lose their live's every day simply because they are homeless and unwanted instead of jumping onto a crazy bandwagon about one dog who was doomed from the start....
		
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A number of independent assessments were made that found he dog to not be aggressive-Sarah Fisher, Victoria Stillwell and David Ryan to my knowledge.
They concluded that Lennox was not a danger. One assessment by a BCC dog warden concluded he was.

To me, this is as stupid as deciding a horse is dangerous because a stage 1 groom says so while 3 BHSI's say it is not 

It is not surprising then Bonny, that many dog owners are worried about this case.
BCC was able to seize and destroy a family pet with the full consent of the law despite experts in canine behaviour giving evidence to the dogs non aggressive nature.

A future where pets can be stolen and killed by the local council for it's looks is a terrifying one...........


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## Amymay (13 July 2012)

bonny said:



			It is just mass hysteria....all those people who never met the dog, had nothing to do with him and didn't actually have any idea about his aggression or lack of it..
		
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I can't agree.  I certainly didn't feel hysterical about it.  If I'm honest, just mild curiosity.  But then growing incredulity that a situation like this could have arisen, whereby a dog was seized through not fault of its own - and for no other reason that it looked like a 'banned' breed.  

You also have to understand the miss information put out by BCC, and the treatment of the animal in general whilst in confinement.

For every Lennox and his alleged pit pull type fit, I will show you ten others not far from where I live.  I await their seizure.....  

And as snide as that sounds - another case surrounding a similar situation is developing.  It will certainly be interesting to watch that one.


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## Copperpot (13 July 2012)

Didn't know that MJ. My Dad has a malamute, will tell him to be careful. 

My dog is a staffy x in some poses some people would say he can look "type" usually when he is curious and at other times nothing like. He is friendly. Loves people but I walk him in the middle of nowhere to avoid people seeing him and this situation arising for me.  Over my dead body would they take him.


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## Seapony (13 July 2012)

I am also not aware of anyone coming forward to say they had been attacked by Lennox.
Surely, given how high profile the case is/as any victims would have been "out there".
The dog was a 7yo when PTS, so IF it was a violent intimidating brute, it would have had a long list of victims racked up in the 5 years prior to his seizure by BCC.


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## bonny (13 July 2012)

Ok then so what is the answer, I think the idea of the dangerous dog act was that it became illegal to import or breed from pitballs with the rather idealistic view that the breed would die out rather than have a mass cull of the dogs already here.  So owning a pitbull is now illegal because in theory they don't exist.  So the authorities can only act on a dog that looks like a pitbull as no one is going to admit that is what their dog is ....
Lennox looked the part which is surely the issue, not whether he was agressive or not.  Either we are going to have pitbulls in our midst or we're not.


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## Amymay (13 July 2012)

bonny said:



			Ok then so what is the answer, I think the idea of the dangerous dog act was that it became illegal to import or breed from pitballs with the rather idealistic view that the breed would die out rather than have a mass cull of the dogs already here.  So owning a pitbull is now illegal because in theory they don't exist.  So the authorities can only act on a dog that looks like a pitbull as no one is going to admit that is what their dog is ....
Lennox looked the part which is surely the issue, not whether he was agressive or not.  Either we are going to have pitbulls in our midst or we're not.
		
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The answer is quite simple.  If you have:

    Pit Bull Terrier
    Japanese Tosa
    Dogo Argentino
    Fila Braziliero

The dog is removed and destroyed.

However, as Lennox was none of these, was not proven to be aggressive, and had no history of aggression - his destruction was entirely unlawful.

And Lennox was clearly not a Pit Bull Terrier, or 'type'.


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## bonny (13 July 2012)

amymay said:



			The answer is quite simple.  If you have:

    Pit Bull Terrier
    Japanese Tosa
    Dogo Argentino
    Fila Braziliero

The dog is removed and destroyed.

However, as Lennox was none of these, was not proven to be aggressive, and had no history of aggression - his destruction was entirely unlawful.

And Lennox was clearly not a Pit Bull Terrier, or 'type'.
		
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But if no one is going to admit that their dog is a pitbull then what is the answer ? apart from having a breed type


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## Seapony (13 July 2012)

bonny said:



			But if no one is going to admit that their dog is a pitbull then what is the answer ? apart from having a breed type
		
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AFAIK, DNA analysis was undergone which concluded he was NOT a pit bull.

It is also important to keep in mind that,as has been mentioned many times on this thread, any dog _can_ be dangerous and targeting a specific breed is pointless- I for one am far more worried about the iffy temperament of a local rough collie( or "lassie dog" as his owners insist on calling him) then I am about the far more powerful but well adjusted mastiff ho is completely obedient to his owners.

In short, bad owners and bad breeders make bad dogs. Being a certain breed does not make a dog a danger and the DDA needs to recognise that.
It should have been about the correct way to deal with a known aggressive dog not a stick to beat certain breeds with and I doubt those who created the Act ever intended non aggressive family pets to be killed because of it.


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## Amymay (13 July 2012)

Seapony said:



			It is also important to keep in mind that,as has been mentioned many times on this thread, any dog _can_ be dangerous and targeting a specific breed is pointless.
		
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Any dog _can_ be dangerous.  But actually the banned dog list does make sense.  The list contains breeds known for their aggression (perhaps apart from Pit Bulls, which can make wonderful pets in the right hands - a friend in the US has three).




			In short, bad owners and bad breeders make bad dogs. Being a certain breed does not make a dog a danger.
		
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I agree with your first sentence, but not your second.  Certain breeds _are_ aggressive - regardless of their handling, as referenced in the DDA.


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## Oberon (13 July 2012)

bonny said:



			Lennox looked the part which is surely the issue, not whether he was agressive or not.  Either we are going to have pitbulls in our midst or we're not.
		
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But he wasn't a pitbull. Weather you disbelieve the owners or not - there is no proof that he was a banned breed. 

Surely we should be demanding proof before we destroy dogs on the basis of them possibly being a banned breed?

He also didn't hurt anyone.

So a dog has been destroyed because he 'looked wrong'.

My dog looks like a wolf - should he be seized and thrown in a zoo? Or PTS because he MIGHT become a killer?

It's a slippery slope and I think we dog owners should stand firm and say this hysterical, knee jerk reaction stops now.

We also need to demand well trained and professional dog wardens - if they are supposed to provide witness statements.

I had them round a few months ago courtesy of a nasty neighbour who wrongly complained of excessive barking. It caused me lots of stress and worry and when the dog wardens turned up they were disinterested, clearly terrified of Salem and had no ability to read the body language of a dog. 

I would not be confident in their testimony as professional witnesses if it ever came to it


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## bonny (13 July 2012)

I'm not arguing about different breeds, numpty owners etc but I'm asking what the answer is as it's now illegal to own a pitbull.  I don't think you can use a DNA test so surely the only way to identify them is to use a breed type.  The owner shouldn't come into it. Like I said before either we want to have pitbulls in our society or we don't and if the answer is we do then we have to allow indiscriminate breeding.


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## CorvusCorax (13 July 2012)

amymay said:



			The answer is quite simple.  If you have:

    Pit Bull Terrier
    Japanese Tosa
    Dogo Argentino
    Fila Braziliero

The dog is removed and destroyed.

However, as Lennox was none of these, was not proven to be aggressive, and had no history of aggression - his destruction was entirely unlawful.

And Lennox was clearly not a Pit Bull Terrier, or 'type'.
		
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AM, with respect, like it or not (and I don't) three judges in three separate courts decided that he WAS type under current legislation and Caroline Barnes admitted in court under oath that yes he could be considered as being of type, so yes, under law, he WAS type, hence his destruction.


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## Amymay (13 July 2012)

But CC, we see 'types' all over the country.  It doesn't mean they are.  And in Lennox's case - it was not proven.


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## bonny (13 July 2012)

Surely it's impossible to prove either way so the only way to decide is to have experts who have to use a breed type.  Failing that we will continue to have pitbulls in this country forever.


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## CorvusCorax (13 July 2012)

Amymay, it was proven in a court of law - again, whether we like it or not, the highest court in the country. Otherwise the dog would not be dead.
This is not about my opinion or your opinion, it is the law, not a game where no one can agree on who won.

The biggest problem with the current legislation is that legally there is no such breed as the APBT in the UK as it is not recognised by the Kennel Club - which is why measurements/dimensions and character tests are used. Until that anomaly is sorted, I have no idea what can be done.
That is why a dog of TYPE can be seized - there is no official breed and no breed registry to prove if a dog is or isn't TYPE, it is a type that is banned.


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## s4sugar (13 July 2012)

Hopefully the best that can come of this is public awareness that a BYB staffie or a crossbreed can be taken as "pit bull type" and discourage people from buying them and hopefully discourage people from breeding if their puppies don't sell.

A client of mine with a red SBT twice had to present the dog's documents at police stations having been stopped whilst out walking. He could prove his dog was a Staffordshire Bull Terrier  ( and had 2 reserve CCs to add evidence) but because he was not a common colour and was not the same as the BYB stock around he got noticed.

I could go through local towns on most days and spot dogs of the type and know of Dogos not far from here -they pass them off as Great Dane crosses.

TBH I find the Bullykutta & mixed mastiff fad more scary.


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## Dobiegirl (13 July 2012)

I seem to remember seeing somewhere those guidelines that BCC used were taken from an US body without their permission and they were outdated anyway. There was talk of this US body sueing the BCC so it would be interesting to see if anything comes of this.


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## CorvusCorax (13 July 2012)

http://www.llaav.com/


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## bonny (13 July 2012)

CaveCanem said:



http://www.llaav.com/

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I think an awful lot of people have jumped on a rather hystercial bandwagon about one dog and the facts of the case ceased to matter. the only regretable part of the whole thing has been that it took 2 years to reach the right conclusion and must have cost 1000's of pounds.


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## Copperpot (13 July 2012)

Once AGAIN Bonny it is about more than just one dog!


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## bonny (13 July 2012)

Copperpot said:



			Once AGAIN Bonny it is about more than just one dog!
		
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The whole campaign was about one dog !! And this thread and all the facebook messages, petitions etc etc.  It was all about saving Lennox not all the others.  There was a tv programme recently where they showed the police removing pitbull type dogs out of council flats where they were often recieving little or no care.  They were held for a short time, often showing themselves to be loving friendly dogs despite their neglect and then pts as it's illegal to try and rehome them. I don't remember any uproar at all about that. Joe Public just loves a good sob story, everybody, well almost averybody cared about Lennox !


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## Copperpot (13 July 2012)

Yes I watched that programme. Well for me it's not just about Lennox it's about all dogs. The BSL law does not just apply to Lennox.  Perhaps some of the people who fought for him would like to do more for other dogs especially staffys in pounds and rescues. Lennox isn't the first dog this has happened to and he sure as hell won't be the last.


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## Dobiegirl (13 July 2012)

I also watched that programme and it filled me with sadness, the Save Lennox campaign are fighting to stop this sort of thing happening ie getting a change in the law. I think with the Save Lennox it united lots of groups fighting for change in order to get a louder voice, I dont see anything wrong with that.


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## Copperpot (13 July 2012)

Me neither DobieGirl. If it took that to bring this law to the general publics attention and change can take place due to that, then I see that as a positive thing. For me Lennox is not just
One dog, he is my dog, my friends dog or anyone's dog. It could be anyone's dog next. Some people struggle to grasp this concept thou .... Until its theirs dogs turn!


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## ChesnutsRoasting (13 July 2012)

bonny said:



			The whole campaign was about one dog !! And this thread and all the facebook messages, petitions etc etc.  It was all about saving Lennox not all the others.  There was a tv programme recently where they showed the police removing pitbull type dogs out of council flats where they were often recieving little or no care.  They were held for a short time, often showing themselves to be loving friendly dogs despite their neglect and then pts as it's illegal to try and rehome them. I don't remember any uproar at all about that. Joe Public just loves a good sob story, everybody, well almost averybody cared about Lennox !
		
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The whole campaign was about Lennox, but it has also highlighted the shower of 5hit that is the DDA. Bull types are the a la mode dog for those requiring a 'tough looking' dog presently. Previously it was Rotties, prior to that it was GSD. It's the morons with the low IQ and a need to impress other morons that need dealing with. It's also the morons who continue to breed these bull types as a nice little earner for their fellow below average intellligence customer that need to be sorted out too.


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## Amymay (13 July 2012)

At the end of the day, yes the campaign was about one dog. However, it was the catalyst that brought issues to the wider public, as is so often the case.


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