# And another one bites the dust......  :(



## gunnergundog (9 October 2019)

For those of you that still hunt, enjoy it whilst you can....every day counts.  It's a sad old world.


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## Tiddlypom (9 October 2019)

Itâ€™s a big name to fail. Was it expected?


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## gunnergundog (9 October 2019)

Apparently so, yes.


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## AdorableAlice (9 October 2019)

Poor management and in fighting apparently.


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## Fiona (9 October 2019)

Does anyone know the background to this?  Were they a big three day a week pack? 

Very sad..

Fiona


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## The Fuzzy Furry (9 October 2019)

gunnergundog said:



			Apparently so, yes.
		
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Sounded ominous yesterday,  how sad


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## Amymay (9 October 2019)

Which Pack are you talking about?


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## Fiona (9 October 2019)

amymay said:



			Which Pack are you talking about?
		
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Atherstone I think, according to Countryside Alliance fb page. 

Fiona


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## Tiddlypom (10 October 2019)

__ https://www.facebook.com/1645267549093974/posts/2410769729210415


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## ycbm (10 October 2019)

All three packs that hunted drag or bloodhounds in Cheshire are now gone too. It's a dying sport.

.


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## Tiddlypom (10 October 2019)

Trail hunting in Cheshire is under a lot of pressure, but Iâ€™m surprised that the drag/bloodhound packs have folded.


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## spacefaer (10 October 2019)

Tiddlypom said:



			Trail hunting in Cheshire is under a lot of pressure, but Iâ€™m surprised that the drag/bloodhound packs have folded.
		
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So far as I am aware, they folded due to internal issues, as with the Atherstone. There is still a demand for what they were providing.


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## ycbm (10 October 2019)

Lack of ground due to all the new roads which followed on from the third runway is also a big factor, I think.

As is 'customers' who think that they pay a lot of money and should therefore be provided with a service, rather than being part of a club where everyone chips in some effort. I heard  from a person who is very close to the owners of the last one to fold that this was a big part of their decision, the amount of work involved in setting up and running the day. Customers is my word, not theirs.

.


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## KautoStar1 (10 October 2019)

If I'm paying a lot of money to someone who is providing a 'service' I too expect to be treated like a customer.  I dont expect to pay a lot of money for the service and then have to join in to provide the service.  if you are running a hunt (or any other business) to provide a service to the local rural community then it needs to conduct itself like a business not a jolly old boys club.

The hunts in my area have done themselves no favours with their pompous attitude and in fighting.


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## AdorableAlice (10 October 2019)

No one who rides to hounds is a customer or is provided with a service in my, probably worthless view.

All hunts be they foxhound, beagle, mink, bassett or drag are only able to function due to the landowner inviting the hunt onto privately owned land.  All of us who have hunted over many seasons will be mindful of the wonderful countryside we have crossed by invitation of the landowner.  150 plus horses make one heck of a mess and the majority of the landowners make a living out of their land in one form or another.

As villages have turned into towns and farming diversified, the land over which hunts were welcome has shrunk.  The cost of running a hunt is huge, many packs are down to just the huntsman and maybe a whip who covers a lot of other duties like countryman/fence builder/knackerman etc.  Subscriptions are sizeable and for me, I would not be paying a lot of money knowing that a good bit of the day is spent careering up the lanes and bashing my horse around.  i was fortunate to hunt in the 70's to 90's and enjoyed every minute of it.  I would not go today even if I was fit and brave again (not a hope !).

The rate at which greenbelt is being built on, the ever increasing level of traffic on rural roads and many other factors it is inevitable that hunting and other country sports will see a gradual decline.  The countryside is changing.


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## Orangehorse (10 October 2019)

Yes Alice it is changing, in fact everything is changing.  The old large estates and farms have been broken up in many cases and often the new owners don't want the hunt at all.

Nearly all meets seem to held on private land, not the pubs like they used to be.

I am so glad I had my years of hunting, on small ponies, then on larger ones and then two or three seasons on my eventer (who wasn't a great hunter).  I can still remember many of the runs we had and the fences we jumped.  

I have heard from some of the old timers that the atmosphere is a lot different now, and they didn't mean that they are trail hunting.


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## Tiddlypom (10 October 2019)

Post ban trail packs probably do need to cater for their â€˜customersâ€™ rather more than pre ban packs. The nature of the day is very different, as hounds are following a pre laid trail, rather than chancing on a live prey. You can now blame the trail layer on a bad day. I suppose that drag/bloodhound packs have always had to cater to their customers (although Iâ€™ve never been out with one, so could be talking bull).

Hunts do cut up the the land very badly, so you can understand why less land is available even without considering the pro/anti arguments. There would be even less land available round here if the big sporting estates didnâ€™t insist that their tenant farmers allow access to the hunts.

Though going back to Cheshire, there seem to have been countless different drag or bloodhound packs that have formed, hunted, squabbled and disbanded since we come here in the mid 80â€™s, so nothing much is new, really.


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## ycbm (10 October 2019)

What's new is that none of the three now operate, whereas since 1991 there were at least two until 2016,  and most years three.

There was Vale Royal Bloodhounds and North East Cheshire Drag. Then the Harveys split from NECDH in the nineties and formed Cheshire Farmers.

NECDH  got in a terrible pickle a few years back with their huntsman and mistreated hounds and amalgamated  with the Farmers to form Cheshire Drag Hunt.

Vale Royal Bloodhounds folded and was later restarted under another name when someone fell out with the Harveys. They later folded and rejoined the Cheshire Drag Hunt.

The Cheshire Drag Hunt, run by the Harveys, has now stopped as well.

So no drag/bloodhound/guaranteed we never chase a fox hunting left in Cheshire  at all.

.


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## Orangehorse (10 October 2019)

Years ago, before the ban, someone tried to get a drag pack started in some country that was a bit of a triangle and the outer reaches of neighbouring packs.

They found opposition from the farmers as the question was "why should I allow you to operate your business over my ground" when they weren't offering any service in return.  But these same farmers didn't seem to have a problem with the established hunts, although I suppose they didn't see them very often.


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## ycbm (10 October 2019)

The established hunts generally offered a fallen stock collection service, as did the better drag packs. This was the 'payment' for hunting over their land, plus fox removal of course. 

.


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## Orangehorse (10 October 2019)

ycbm said:



			The established hunts generally offered a fallen stock collection service, as did the better drag packs. This was the 'payment' for hunting over their land, plus fox removal of course.

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Yes, I suppose this was the problem.  I know my neighbours once asked the hunt to come out as they were loosing pedigree lambs, and not small ones either.  As they lived next door to the railway the huntsman just brought some hounds to try and find the culprit.  I think the huntsman decided that it wasn't a fox taking the lambs,  but badgers.


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## Boy Tom (10 October 2019)

ycbm said:



			The established hunts generally offered a fallen stock collection service, as did the better drag packs. This was the 'payment' for hunting over their land, plus fox removal of course.

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Indeed they did and a valuable service it was - - then along came those with a mind to create rules and for the sole benefit of enriching our lives,  except of course that they failed abysmally.  

Kennels have buried guts and bones for a couple of centuries or more, without anyone coming to any harm that I'm aware of,  though now that's been banned.  Incinerators for the flesh aspects which were unusable are very costly to install and to run and so now,  apart from the larger and wealthier packs,  hounds are fed a complete feed.  Few packs will take in horses any longer,  so the less than responsible palm them off on rescue centres. 

Those who farm are now mostly cost conscious and they don't want a mounted field riding across winter drilled corn.  50 years ago,  corn was mostly drilled in the spring but now it's more often than not winter drilled (now - autumn/winter) as that gives the seedling plants a better chance to germinate and establish themselves.  

Though possibly in a minority,  there are also those who ride to Hounds who really don't help themselves.  Hunting will eventually fizzle out I suspect.  It won't be because of those who group together and call themselves activist because quite perversely,  Hunting has grown in popularity and mostly as a reaction to those who oppose it!  The pressures upon Hunting come from all directions.


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## Shay (11 October 2019)

Thing is - things change.  And we change with them.  We are lucky as a pack to have a large amount of private land available to us - but our country is still spilt with major roads and rail lines keeping us within specific areas on each day which can pose a challenge if the weather makes damage to land more of a risk. (We do not "pound the lanes" as we would hold up traffic and generally create a nuisance. ) The hunt still offers a fallen stock service, and a knackerman for both horses and other stock.  We help landowners with fence maintenance and a lawful pest service.  We offer a service to those who allow us to use their land; we are immensely careful and respectful of that land.

Yes there are those who join us who do want the entertainment of it - trail hunting is actually part of the entertainment business really and we are there to show those who have paid for our services as good a day as we can.  But we also have a strong core of subscribers (mounted and foot) who understand that there is a lot more work here than the paid staff and Masters can do alone.  Even so our loyal contingent are ageing; and our younger intake far less likely to include a non working partner these days!

So sad for the Atherstone.  But certainly - at least down our way - trail hunting is thriving with mounted fields larger than ever (another challenge in finding land...)  Finding volunteers is the struggle!  And in house politics play a part in most areas of voluntary community life!!


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## Follysmum (11 October 2019)

My farrier was only saying last week that hunting is a dying breed in his opinion. Not a lot of new blood coming through with itâ€™s being so expensive and also the sabs continually ruining the day.


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## honetpot (11 October 2019)

Our local hunt provides a fallen stock service, which I have used several times. 
 I think a hunt now needs people who own large blocks of connected land, to keep the sabs at a distance. It makes it harder for car followers to follow, so we used to go to the pub.
 Being  MFH is hard work, they spend a lot of time talking to land owners, even in my experience the small ones like me.
 There have always been fashionable expensive packs where people get out of their smart car and the groom hands them their horse. It just that I think the older members/ followers have realised their input is no longer appreciated, they often raise money for the hunt.
 A hunt is more like a RC than a business, but the wages and the overheads are greater. If no one wants to volunteer, close gates, check fences, raise money, what chance do they have?


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## Velcrobum (11 October 2019)

Interesting that there has not been a peep of this in HHO News section!!


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## VoR (13 October 2019)

Most countries getting smaller due to busier roads, buidling works and in some cases reduced support from landowners as well as the increase in 'shoots'.
The opportunities to do other things with horses in the winter, arena eventing, show jumping, schooling on all weather surfaces, etc,  which take less time from people's busy lives and ultimately may be less costly have grown.
Hunting failing to understand they are an entertainment which has to compete against these other equine attractions and sticking to old customs and practices, not 'moving with the times'.
Opposition to hunting whether actively or just from a moral stance is on the increase, many people don't want to put themselves at risk of confrontation.
The PR for those opposing hunting is often stronger than pro-hunting, so influences opinion more effectively.
'Own goals' but pro-hunt supporters when faced with the cameras of those opposing them.
'Own goals' by hunts who are shown to be blatantly flouting the law.
Reducing support and income for a lot of hunts with the double-whammy of increasing costs to maintain hounds, horses, kennels and so on.
Few young people coming through to firstly follow and  then take on official roles.
Probably most sadly, for many hunts, a small nucleus of people seem wield unlimited power over the workings of hunts, often whilst not being prepared to take on any official role.
Lack of willingness, regardless of what is best for hunting in their area, to merge smaller hunts and ensure the survival of hunting in an area.
Infighting, 'warring' factions, lack of tolerance and weak management within hunts.
These are all things I have seen and experienced in recent years which, to my mind, will lead to the downfall of many more hunts over the next few years and, have led to my becoming disillusioned with hunting as a 'sport'.


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## Tiddlypom (13 October 2019)

^^^^ Good post, VoR.


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