# Sycamore trees do kill!



## charliecrisps (22 October 2014)

I've been posting on Facebook sites and alerting yards in my area about sycamore trees... as it's that time of year. I had such a tragic time when mine came down with atypical myopathy last year. But would seem people aren't taking in the advice... Someone who even commented on my warnings on Facebook groups thanking me for posting, carried on grazing the field & now the companion horse who was in field come down with AM & got PTS. Then today I find out that they all carried on grazing the field still and now another is on a drip with it: they was warned but chose to carry on grazing without any steps at all???!! 
I feel very sad. And rather hacked off my efforts have gone unheard :-( 

Please please don't make the mistake. Mine grazed the Same field for 5 years & had no adverse effect until last October. The field had horses on it ten years previous! I don't know why now ... But don't be a part of the 'it won't happen to me gang'


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## Patchworkpony (22 October 2014)

I was just about to post about this to ask how many seeds do people think it takes to kill a horse?


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## charliecrisps (22 October 2014)

Unfortuantly no one knows... This is partly the problem!  :-( If you have to graze the field you need to Fence off the area, or Hoover the seeds up. Ideally Don't graze 24/7 & Supplement with hay. It's only for a couple of months ... Believe me it's not worth the risk. Horrid disease with high death rate.


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## Sugar_and_Spice (22 October 2014)

The thing is, there's a million and one things that can end a horses life. If I tried to guard against every little (or big) thing, I'd find I couldn't keep my horses anywhere unless I won the lottery and bought my own land to then have it landscaped into the perfect horsey paradise with snipers employed to guard all edges against stray rabbits which may decide to dig a hole in my field. And the horse will still die of *something* some day. 

So I, like many others I expect, decide to do the best we can with the facilities we have available and to focus on enjoying our horses. Nobody goes out and buys a horse because we look around at out lives and decide we don't have enough annoying chores or enough things to worry us. It's supposed to be fun. My horses will have a good quality of life for the time that they're with me, they will live in a manner that enables them (and me) to be happy and if something occurs to cause them irreversible suffering they will be swiftly PTS. 

I understand that having lost one to atypical myopathy you will be keen to prevent it again and it will be a big thing for you. It's good that you're warning others as they can then make an educated decision rather than doing things in ignorance. But if people choose to do things differently to you, you can't let it upset you or you'll spend most of your life distressed. I'd offer you a hug but you probably want to slap me by now!


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## charliecrisps (22 October 2014)

Yes I guess it may be my bugbear now, I'm just a bit upset for the horses... It was just so horrible to watch mine go through it. And when it's people I know who aren't fencing off the trees it's upsetting too. Haha, but def No slaps needed


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## minkymoo (22 October 2014)

But S&S, OP is pointing out that this can kill and there is a way of preventing it. I know someone whose horse quickly died from AM, it was devastating and I don't know why people actively choose to ignore the reasons.

I appreciate it's each to their own, but I can't imagine this is a nice way for a horse to die. It's just such a waste. Knowledge is power, it was certainly not something I knew very much about.


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## Dave's Mam (22 October 2014)

Friend's horse pts with it 2 nights ago.


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## hairycob (22 October 2014)

There have been a lot of deaths over the last week or so. It's only for a few weeks in spring & autumn that you need to take precautions. Is that really too much to ask to save your horse from an agonising death?


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## Patchworkpony (22 October 2014)

hairycob said:



			It's only for a few weeks in spring & autumn that you need to take precautions.
		
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 When do you consider these weeks to be. Also I would love to know how far the seeds can travel in a gale. You can't find every single seed  - it's impossible. We have these wretched trees along the lane by our land and I'm now seriously considering not buying any ponies and giving up the horse world as I don't want to kill something. It's very sad as this wasn't the intention when we bought our house. I didn't realise (like so many people) that these trees were so dangerous. The irony is I avoided land with oak trees but acorns are far easier to pick up than winged seeds!


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## Sugar_and_Spice (22 October 2014)

minkymoo said:



			But S&S, OP is pointing out that this can kill and there is a way of preventing it. I know someone whose horse quickly died from AM, it was devastating and I don't know why people actively choose to ignore the reasons.

I appreciate it's each to their own, but I can't imagine this is a nice way for a horse to die. It's just such a waste. Knowledge is power, it was certainly not something I knew very much about.
		
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There's a way of preventing laminitis too. But I still turned out a horse who had laminitis before I bought, onto a lush field in spring. Because that was the facilities available. Except stabling and horse didn't like being only one in and I needed a rest from the mucking out etc of winter, so a quality of life issue for both of us. Horse was fine but I was prepared for the risk I'd have to PTS. On livery and no opportunity to restrict grazing without stabling and I detest muzzles with the way they rub and frustrate the horse. Life is all about choices. 

Many many things *can* be prevented with enough effort on the owners part. It bugs me far more to see a horse with recurrent mud fever forced to live out, with the owner often wailing about how there is nothing they can do (except stable it at night and apply barrier before turnout, but they don't want to), as that is something affecting the horses happiness and quality of life. Horses care about how they feel today, they dont worry about how they may die in the future. I realise I have a different outlook to a lot who post on here.


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## cobgoblin (22 October 2014)

I was a bit surprised last week when my farrier said he had just been to a horse with laminitis. He was moaning because the laminitis was caused by the vet giving a large amount of glucose ( horse was a known laminitic), turned out that the horse had recovered from AM. I explained that the vet had saved the horses life and had no choice. My farrier had no idea about sycamore poisoning. Hopefully he is now spreading the word.
 If a farrier, who frequently works with local vets and visits all the local yards hasn't heard about the dangers of sycamore, how many horse owners are living in ignorance?


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## Dave's Mam (22 October 2014)

Flipping things fly for yonks.


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## sare_bear (22 October 2014)

I do agree, in the most part. I have my own land and have removed quite a few trees, but cannot remove all, as would have no trees left as they are nearly all sycamore! and lots are bordering others land. What I thought was sycamore free areas, with the gales last week is now not. Cannot believe how far the seeds have gone this year. Miles!! I can not hoover up 20+ thousand seeds. I have long grass, and they won't eat hay and nor do I have stables for them as I had plenty of land for them to live out. So what more can you do. I will be gutted if something happens, but I have no where else to move them too. Not everyone has loads of options available to them.
Also, I would say it is nearly a 6 month worry, as last winter we didn't really get any frosts to speak of, so there were cases also through the winter months.


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## Sugar_and_Spice (22 October 2014)

Patchworkpony said:



			We have these wretched trees along the lane by our land and I'm now seriously considering not buying any ponies and giving up the horse world as I don't want to kill something. It's very sad as this wasn't the intention when we bought our house.
		
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I don't really understand this. Why make yourself unhappy over something that may not happen? If the land is yours you could take some preventative measures if you wanted. Horses are born and die. Many don't have good lives or owners who will call a vet as needed rather than "wait a bit" when horse is suffering, to try to avoid the fee. A horse could do a lot worse than be owned by someone caring like yourself, even if their life was shorter than in the mythical "ideal" home.


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## EstherYoung (22 October 2014)

I have the same with my fields. Sycamores are the most common tree in this area. And the seeds travel a long way. It's not just a few weeks - the trees have been shedding for months. It does scare the bejesus out of me, we're sweeping the seeds up twice a day, we supplement with 24/7 fibre, they're well fed, they get extra vitamins. I don't know if it's enough. But I'll tell you now, there isn't a single field in our bit of west Yorkshire that isn't within seeding distance of a sycamore - they line every road, motorway, train track, and many field boundaries. So we cope and we pray, it's all we can do. Where would we move to?


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## L&M (22 October 2014)

I have to say I am with S&S - if we worried about every danger, we would never contemplate horse ownership.

Having said that, common sense must prevail, so if it is possible not to graze near sycamore, then that is the sensible option.


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## Inthemud (22 October 2014)

I live in the New Forest and we have a gazillion oak trees and sycamore trees around.. Most of the ponies (roaming or in fields) are fine. Some sadly die.

To me, commoning your animal and letting it wander over roads, at night, with no reflective neck band, is negligently stupid. To other people it is "a way of life" and fine.

Keeping horses seems to be a series of risk assessments and hopes for the best.....


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## Patchworkpony (22 October 2014)

Sugar_and_Spice said:



			I don't really understand this. Why make yourself unhappy over something that may not happen? If the land is yours you could take some preventative measures if you wanted. Horses are born and die. Many don't have good lives or owners who will call a vet as needed rather than "wait a bit" when horse is suffering, to try to avoid the fee. A horse could do a lot worse than be owned by someone caring like yourself, even if their life was shorter than in the mythical "ideal" home.
		
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 I wouldn't gallop a horse on the road knowing it had a chance of coming down and breaking its leg and by the same token I wouldn't willingly put an animal in a field that held even the slightest health risk. I love my ponies too much and couldn't bear to lose one knowing it could be my fault. Perhaps you wouldn't worry about putting a horse in a field full of ragwort either. Years ago I bought a beautiful welsh cob out of a field full of ragwort (against my better judgement) and I lost him eventually to liver cancer. Never again!


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## lelly (22 October 2014)

I am worried about the sycamores but have nowhere else to put my horses. After yesterday's storm the fields are covered in seeds and leaves. I am clearing up as much as possible but can't keep on top of it. I have advertised for grazing or livery, I check all the advertising boards in shops and ask everyone locally with no luck. So I am one of the many with no choice.


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## hairycob (22 October 2014)

Much as it goes against the grain with me - I'm very much a keep out as much as possible person - if you have a sycamore risk probably the best thing to do is stable for at least part of the day. I wish I could turn the clock back to last spring & not turn out 24/7 as soon as I could.


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## Red-1 (22 October 2014)

charliecrisps said:



			I feel very sad. And rather hacked off my efforts have gone unheard :-( 

'
		
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Well I thanked Hairycob at the time when she (I presume) told me in a thread about her experiences. I knew to sweep up acorns, but had no idea Sycamore could be a problem. (As neither did many vets!).

Now, I got rid of one tree, trimmed another, and my horse came off his field and has been on arena turnout for a week already, as soon as they were dropping in  numbers.

You don't know who you are helping. 

But, at the same time each to their own, most horses will be out with Sycamore to no ill effects.

People have the freedom to see to their horses as they see best, it is all bound up with the fantastic experience that is horse ownership.

To quote an old trainer " you can't save them all". 

For me, Hairycob helped me make a connection with October and swollen legs. Now my horse is safer than he was. You just don't know who you are helping to make connections, to tip the balance (with other evidence) to change management.


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## leggs (22 October 2014)

I (just having moved to this house) am cutting the ******** down (luckily only 2)  and taking precautions in a meanwhile, not letting them graze in the fields that have the trees. Sorry for your loss but PLEASE keep venting your warnings, there are people that listen!!


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## charlie76 (22 October 2014)

I have two trees. I have fenced them off and only turn out for four hours max, we have a huge amount of grass. I'm picking them up but its an impossible task. 
Those that sadly lost horses.. Were they out all day\24\7?


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## siennamum (22 October 2014)

Could people who have sycamore trees near or as a boundary to their fields not create a pen which can be kept sycamore free and feed hay for a month or two. I have a somewhat relaxed attitude compared to some, but am surprised that people are happy to take the risk. I also know 2 horses who died locally a couple of years ago from AM. It is not a remote risk.


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## charlie76 (22 October 2014)

I'm not happy to take the risk, it worries me everyday, I have reduced the risk( I hope!) By fencing a huge area off where the two trees are , have a vast amount of grass,pick up seeds daily( which is impossible tbh) , give ad lib hay over night and when they come in and only turn out for four hours max.I'm lucky in that I only have two trees but two yards I teach at are bordered by them, over two hundred acres each surrounded by them. They have no choice but to risk it. 
However, both yards have well over 100 hundred horses , they have , between them , lost three horses to am in the past ,in a time span of over twenty years, both were when the seedlings were out and not the seeds. 
I guess they have far more deaths from other causes over the years. 
Its so difficult, a bit of me thinks I should keep mine in but then what? Do they get colic from being in? Or go beserk when they finally get back out? Its so difficult. I hope that my couple of hours out each day serves to prevent any of it.
At my previous yard we also lost three horses to it having never had a problem in the past. 
All horses I know that have died from it have had no grass and were out ,24/7 and had been out for a few days without coming in. They were all fatties so weren't having hay.


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## diamonddogs (22 October 2014)

I feel your pain, I really do.

I lost my beautiful mare nearly three years ago now. She showed all the signs of AM (though I didn't know anything about this ailment at the time) and she died 24 hours after she first collapsed. I subsequently read the new research on sycamore seeds, and was horrified to see hundreds of them around the yard this week - it'll be three years on 10 November since I lost her, so roundabout the same time. I mentioned it to another livery, but I wasn't taken seriously. I keep sweeping them up and bagging them up (I daren't put them on the muckheap as they'll use it to spread on the fields next spring and I don't know how long the toxins stick around) but nobody seems bothered.

I'm 99% sure there aren't any sycamores in our fields, but like someone else said, they can travel for miles.

Oh well, I'll just continue to be diligent about sweeping up and hope that someone will take this seriously.


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## Mynyddcymro (22 October 2014)

Hoping one of you could answer my questions! We have what I think are sycamores bordering the land where I keep my two Shetlands. I have literally just moved them off their bare paddock onto a very lush rested paddock for winter. They go out 10 hours a day and have adlib hay at night when they come in. Is this okay? I'm hoping lots of grass means they will be more picky with what they eat. Although lots of grass and Shetlands is a juggling act in its self!
Must admit AM seems to be becoming more and more prominent - maybe because we're sharing experiences? Like others I thought acorns were my biggest problem!


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## MagicMelon (22 October 2014)

Sugar_and_Spice said:



			The thing is, there's a million and one things that can end a horses life. If I tried to guard against every little (or big) thing, I'd find I couldn't keep my horses anywhere unless I won the lottery and bought my own land to then have it landscaped into the perfect horsey paradise with snipers employed to guard all edges against stray rabbits which may decide to dig a hole in my field. And the horse will still die of *something* some day.
		
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I think the problem with this AM is that the temperature / weather conditions have made the issue far worse than usual?  I totally agree that there are plenty of things that can basically lead to the death of a horse but if something like this is proving to be worse than normal than I would certainly do my best to try to avoid it.  I cut down my 2 sycamore trees which were lining the field as soon as I saw they were starting to seed, one of the trunks is now used as a little XC jump


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## maree t (22 October 2014)

I have a large field with 5 big oak trees down one side. The horses are fenced off from them . I didnt realise the problems with sycamore TBH. If they were in my field they would be fenced off, I know how easy it is for horses to do themselves harm so I need to make sure that I do my best to get rid of anything that I know is a risk .


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## charlie76 (22 October 2014)

Sadly I can't cut mine down,I'm on a rented yartsd and oneis huge!


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## orionstar (22 October 2014)

Unfortunately good grazing as stated in the article is not always assurance that the horses wont eat them. A friend lost a young pony two years ago to this in the field with my youngster the same age and my older horse, neither of which were affected, and they were in there to eat off the grass, but the pony obviously developed a taste for them, and it was the first time we had heard of it. We have taken steps to cut down some trees, but they are very prevalent and we're working on it, but TBH removing them all is not an option. The onset is extremely quick. I checked the horses one night, rode and went home, then returned from work the next day to find the pony had collapsed during the day brought in and received veterinary treatment, but then it was sadly PTS the next day. The problem seems to be on the increase, but I think this is due more to the fact that we now know what this is and what is causing it, so vets can diagnose the problem and last year and this year the seed count has been much more than normal because of the weather.


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## charlie76 (22 October 2014)

The vets do say if we have frost it seems to stop it so let's pray it gets cold soon!
Still wondering if the horses people know that have been affected were out 24\7? The ones I knew all were.


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## Tinypony (22 October 2014)

To people saying they are fencing trees off - sycamore seeds travel a very long way, and with the winds we've been having - how big an area do you fence off?


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## vanrim (22 October 2014)

Hairy Cob and Red-1 could you elaborate on the swollen legs please. I find these discussions very useful and informative. The knowledge gained can be life saving.





Red-1 said:



			Well I thanked Hairycob at the time when she (I presume) told me in a thread about her experiences. I knew to sweep up acorns, but had no idea Sycamore could be a problem. (As neither did many vets!).

Now, I got rid of one tree, trimmed another, and my horse came off his field and has been on arena turnout for a week already, as soon as they were dropping in  numbers.

You don't know who you are helping. 

But, at the same time each to their own, most horses will be out with Sycamore to no ill effects.

People have the freedom to see to their horses as they see best, it is all bound up with the fantastic experience that is horse ownership.

To quote an old trainer " you can't save them all". 

For me, Hairycob helped me make a connection with October and swollen legs. Now my horse is safer than he was. You just don't know who you are helping to make connections, to tip the balance (with other evidence) to change management.
		
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## EstherYoung (23 October 2014)

When they first started shedding in the summer the seeds fell straight down as they were immature, so fencing off helped. Now the seeds fly for yonks and can reach over the entire field and far beyond. I have no stabling.

I own the land but I don't own the land where all the trees are. A neighbour cut down one of the enormous trees the other year but they're crafty trees - it came back with a vengeance and there are now far many more saplings round that tree than there were before, and the stump is growing back too. They are very robust, fast growing trees, and grow like weeds, which is why they're so common - they're quick and cheap soundproof barriers for motorways and railways.

I've also cut down all the lower branches, so that the pones can't reach them.

Leaf fall, however, I haven't got a hope of keeping on top of, so I'm concentrating on the seeds. We did this regime last autumn, though, and didn't have a single sapling in the field this spring, so fingers crossed.

Ps, OP, never stop warning people, you are doing a good job. Just understand that people can only work with what they have.


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## Red-1 (23 October 2014)

vanrim said:



			Hairy Cob and Red-1 could you elaborate on the swollen legs please. I find these discussions very useful and informative. The knowledge gained can be life saving.
		
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I have no "official" knowledge on swollen legs, it was just that in the past few years two horses in a field bordered by Sycamore trees had inexplicable swollen legs. I did not happen if we came off the field and into winter arena turnout early, but did if we were out in the field longer.

You may say that I *should* have connected that, but there are always a myriad of circumstances, and I had actually put it down to the fact that when the fields are firmer I spend many a happy hour cantering in the stubble fields. This is really the only change in feed, work, horse care that I was doing. I did have some acorn drop but would sweep them up, it was not a huge problem..

First I thought I was maybe straining their legs with whoopie do work in the stubble, but these were fit eventers, so they should have coped. 

Year before last I kept the work levels on the stubble low intensity (not so much whoopie do, blah) and his legs still came up so I thought it was straw stubble putting micro pricks in the skin, and last year had started to wear sports medicine type boots when playing in the stubble. 

The legs still came up, and the last time it was both back legs, to ABOVE the hock, and both front legs to some degree. The vet was mystified, as work, feed, way of keeping etc had stayed the same. The vet also told me that they were having a lot of calls from owners about mystery swollen legs.

The legs would reduce with gentle work but not go away, and worryingly they were getting progressively worse. I reduced feed, walked out, turned out even more to keep him moving. The vet said he had seen a lot of the same.

It was when I saw Hairycob's post that I connected that his "feed" had in fact changed, as he now had Sycamore falling, that I did not know to sweep up. I moved him onto arena turnout, and the legs started to reduce almost straight away, and the swelling went in less that a week. 

So, this year we chopped down the worst offender, the one that actually overhung the paddock, and he has moved to winter arena turnout early, and his legs are perfectly normal. 

May be nothing? Too much risk for me to take though. I do think one consequence of ingesting a toxin could be a strain on the system and swollen legs. Having said that we have not been in the stubble much as it has been too wet this year.


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## hairycob (23 October 2014)

Mine didn't have swollen legs & I don't think that is a typical symptom. Trouble is the early symptoms are very vague. When I found Jason the things that first thoughts that ran through my head were gas colic (spring grass was growing like mad), laminitis (same reason), had he banged his poll on the field shelter. Nothing fitted which is why I called the vet straight away even though at that stage I wouldn't have blamed anyone if they had decided to check back in a couple of hours. Within 45 minutes it was clear he was very ill & 3 hours after getting to the yard he collapsed for the first time despite treatment. He only survived for 9 hours after I got to the yard. He was pts because his heart & diaphram were failing. If my pm visit had been just a couple of hours earlier I would have found a dead horse in the field & would probably have assumed he had colicked.


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## tiggs (23 October 2014)

My vet has seen 3 cases this week. A couple of sites that might be useful from Liphook and Scott Dunns

https://www.facebook.com/notes/equine-atypical-myopathy-myoglobinuria/leaflet/707746929301118

http://www.scott-dunns.co.uk/equine_atypical_myopathy.htm


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## charlie76 (23 October 2014)

We had three die at my last yard. They all had different symptoms to be honest,they were all older horses ( over 20) and were out on sparse grazing  24\7. At the time no one new what am was or what caused it.
First one was a pony that was found down in the field with colic like symptoms, it got worse and by the time the vet came she was in such distress she was bleeding from her eyes and nose. Terrible. She was pts.
Because of the extreme symptoms they had her blood tested and the blood tests showed major liver and kidney faliure. We advised to bring them all in as the vet believed she had be poisoned by something.
We bought all horses in ( over 80)and put five small ponies in the indoor school. I checked them all before I left and they were all fine. One pony in the indoor was a bit quiet but I took him a carrot, he ate it and started muching hay.
Next morning I arrived   checked horses and all were fineand was mucking out, suddenly heard what I can only describe as a cross between chocking and squealing coming from the indoor school, rushed in to find the quiet pony knelt on the floor with his head between his knees unable to move or breath. It was awful. The vet came as quick as she could, again took bloods and put him to sleep. 
The third horse was totally different, they were all still in, we had four vets on site all day checking any that looked quiet and had every animal on the yard blood tested. All looked fine and were eating. One horse just suddenly stopped eating. Vet checked her and I noticed a very very small muscle twitch on her shoulder, I also said she smelt like pear drops by her nostrils. 
She was a livery so , although she looked perfectly normal, they took her in to the vets to be careful, she died within 24 hours. 
We had all horses PM'd and the vet said that the liver and kidney were totally destroyed and had turned to liquid.
The other symptoms was that their temp dropped dramatically and their gums and membranes were bright red. 
Looking back I believe my made died of the same thing ten years previous, she had some odd symptoms leading up to what we thought at the time was a major colic attack but it was much worse than a normal colic, she was smashing her head into the stable walls and making the horrendous chocking/ squealing noise, she was so manic it ewas too dangerous to enter the stable. I believe it was AM now. 

A friend of mine lost two when the seedlings were out, she had some one, he died in his new home 24 hours after being delivered. His field friend died at the vets. 

Its very very scary but with so many people with horses in fields near sycamores what can you do? 

I fence my trees off,I know the seeds travel however at least they can't get to big piles of the under the tree .


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## PaulnasherryRocky (23 October 2014)

Our field is surrounded by sycamore trees so obviously all liveries are quite worried about it. Our YO has rang our vet for advice and he says that not ALL sycamore trees are toxic, nor are ALL the seeds, and the same tree can have both non toxic and toxic seeds- he said having the trees is unavoidable especially as we have so many, and has said as long as there is plenty of grass or hay provided then the horses should not be tempted to eat the seeds. He has said those that have had horses suffer from them have generally been those that live out 24/7 without that much grass.


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## charliecrisps (23 October 2014)

I still have to graze a field with a tree in it even though it scares me to death.. but i fenced around it and walk the area.. to me at least if something happened i can say i tried to prevent it.

The yard i was talking about originally said 'all owners were warned but was their choice whether to graze or not' Helpful! I suspect now after several deaths they will fence off the trees (which are all just at one end of the field!) Just a shame they didnt do it beforehand. 
What upsets me is the people who just turn out without an attempt to fence off/collect/part stable/mitigate the risk.

Noone says you can collect all the seeds as they blow in the wind, or chop random trees down but you can try to mitigate the risk

Case of how bothered people want to be i guess.

 May be a case of hoovering the grass which takes forever, fencing the tree as most the seeds do drop below or putting a stable up and part stabling etc... 

Would these people also graze a field with tons of ragwort? Probably not


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## sare_bear (23 October 2014)

Noone says you can collect all the seeds as they blow in the wind, or chop random trees down but you can try to mitigate the risk

Case of how bothered people want to be i guess.

 May be a case of hoovering the grass which takes forever, fencing the tree as most the seeds do drop below or putting a stable up and part stabling etc... 

Would these people also graze a field with tons of ragwort? Probably not
		
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I think that unfortunately whether you know about the problem or not, some people just do not have options. I did buy a poo picking hoover specifically to pick up the seeds, but I have 20 acres and about 30+ trees.(That's after having removed some!) There is not a hope! Even if I hoovered 24/7! With the gales the past few years fencing around the trees, is only good to make me feel better. Will it reduce the risk? No, the seeds have blown everywhere, a higher concentration quite a way from the trees. Not everyone can just randomly put up stables as you suggest. Yes, in the future when I can get planning, but for now I have 1 for emergencies, but with 10 horses, I can't get them off the grass. 

So maybe from the outside, you may feel that I am one of those that is 'not bothered'! Completely the opposite, but short of selling up my house, or taking up cattle farming instead, I have to live with it.


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## hairycob (23 October 2014)

Round here, & probably most of the country, there are sycamores all over the place You will never eliminate the risk. All you can do is be aware & minimise the risk as best you can. You may be lucky & your seeds not have the toxin, the wind may even blow them away from you, your horse may not like to eat them but if you are aware & your horse is sick you know that AM needs treating straight away & to tell the vet there is a sycamore risk. That can be the difference between life & death :& ultimately is all most people can do
.


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## Inthemud (23 October 2014)

Depending on your area, not everyone is able to just cut trees down either. Obviously TPO'd trees are protected, but also all trees in conservation areas etc., never mind national parks.

Fines for cutting down or doing unauthorised tree work can be in the tens of thousands of £s and you would be told to replace them.


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## windand rain (23 October 2014)

Inthemud said:



			Depending on your area, not everyone is able to just cut trees down either. Obviously TPO'd trees are protected, but also all trees in conservation areas etc., never mind national parks.

Fines for cutting down or doing unauthorised tree work can be in the tens of thousands of £s and you would be told to replace them.
		
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This I am sorry for anyone who has a sick horse for any reason but I also fear for the British countryside if hysterical chopping of trees goes on. It is just another risk minimise it by feeding your horse well and if you are worried much against the grain for me put it in a stable overnight as it seems those out 24/7 are at the greatest risk. I am lucky we only have silver birch trees in our field but I did panic a little when in August  the horse I was looking after while his owners were away was hoovering up sycamore seeds with gay abandon. They don't seem worried by it but I made sure I fenced him away as I did not fancy telling them their horse had died


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## hairycob (23 October 2014)

I am very much an out 24/7/365 person but, now, if I was at a yard with sycamores nearby I would stable autumn & spring. I found out the hard way that feeding additional forage is not always enough & am aware of several cases that were on good grass or fed additional forage. I suspect that cob/pony types are more prone to eat anything until it is proven not to be food  - Jason certainly was - & also more likely to be out on sparse grazing. I suspect that this is were the statistical link with sparse grazing comes from rather than a causal link. Mine weren't on sparse grazing (in fact I was concerned about weight gain) & after Jason died HP was moved to a different field and given haylage - still got it. A picky TB had been in the field for a short period before mine while his fence was repaired. He was fine.


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## smellsofhorse (23 October 2014)

As terrible as the illness is,
You can sort of understand why people don't think about it until it happened to them or their horse.

As you said horse have grazed the land for 10 years and your horse for 5 and even after your horse became ill no other horse has yet.

So much is unknown about it we don't totally know what cases it.


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## hairycob (23 October 2014)

The trouble is the toxin levels vary - from tree to tree, from year to year & even between seeds on one tree but no one knows why. You may be at a yard where there is actually zero risk for years & then one year - bam. The difference could be as little as the usual prevailing wind blows the seed away from the field but one storm came from a different direction. That is what makes it so difficult to deal with from a prevention angle. All we can really do is be aware, reduce the risk where possible, know the signs & act promptly on them and log any cases you do have on the University of Liege site. AM is not notifiable &, certainly historically, under diagnosed so nobody knows how many horses actually die. The better a record can be built up the more likely researchers are to get funding. Ultimately the answer will possibly be a portable test to save diagnostic time & an anti toxin to treat. Horses will still get it but the survival rates will be higher. Those that recover usually make a full recovery, it's just getting through the first couple of days that's tough.


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## hairycob (23 October 2014)

http://www.myopathieatypique.fr/en/declarer-un-cas/

This is the link for declaring a case. Please do if you have experienced a case - every bit of knowledge will help. It is in English!


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## Patchworkpony (23 October 2014)

This is a whole new and very worrying situation that is perplexing us all. In all the many decades I have kept horses I have never felt so threatened by something we can't control. You can pick up acorns, limit rich grass pull up ragwort etc. BUT you simply can't control, or guess, what the wind's going to dump on your paddocks.


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## EquiEquestrian556 (23 October 2014)

EstherYoung said:



			I have the same with my fields. Sycamores are the most common tree in this area. And the seeds travel a long way. It's not just a few weeks - the trees have been shedding for months. It does scare the bejesus out of me, we're sweeping the seeds up twice a day, we supplement with 24/7 fibre, they're well fed, they get extra vitamins. I don't know if it's enough. But I'll tell you now, there isn't a single field in our bit of west Yorkshire that isn't within seeding distance of a sycamore - they line every road, motorway, train track, and many field boundaries. So we cope and we pray, it's all we can do. Where would we move to?
		
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^^ This. We have sycamores EVERYWHERE, and with recent wind there are seeds all over our field. And sadly we only have this field, it's perfect, except it has sycamores in & surrounding it  We do have a poo hoover, and I fenced off all the trees, but the wind blows them all around & constantly. Luckily ours are all in at night though. It's such a horrible condition, but alas many of us don't have the option to move our horses to another pasture. Horrible trees!


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## EquiEquestrian556 (23 October 2014)

hairycob said:



			Round here, & probably most of the country, there are sycamores all over the place You will never eliminate the risk. All you can do is be aware & minimise the risk as best you can. You may be lucky & your seeds not have the toxin, the wind may even blow them away from you, your horse may not like to eat them but if you are aware & your horse is sick you know that AM needs treating straight away & to tell the vet there is a sycamore risk. That can be the difference between life & death :& ultimately is all most people can do
.
		
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I agree with you.


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## YorksG (23 October 2014)

One way of reducing the risk of such plants and plant materials getting into your horse, is to cross graze with cattle or sheep. We graze three sheep with our four horses and they keep down all the weeds, including any tree saplings in the field.


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## Patchworkpony (23 October 2014)

YorksG said:



			One way of reducing the risk of such plants and plant materials getting into your horse, is to cross graze with cattle or sheep. We graze three sheep with our four horses and they keep down all the weeds, including any tree saplings in the field.
		
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 We have sheep - do you think they eat the seeds when grazing? If so I wonder if they are harmed by them.


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## YorksG (23 October 2014)

Our last three ewes lived well into their teens, having done a fantastic job of field 'cleaning' We have one sycamore on the land and we have few seeds and NO seedlings, so seems to work. The current three ewes are seven years old and in excellent health!


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## ameeyal (23 October 2014)

Is there no way of getting seedlings tested to see how much toxin there is in them.


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## Patchworkpony (23 October 2014)

YorksG said:



			Our last three ewes lived well into their teens, having done a fantastic job of field 'cleaning' We have one sycamore on the land and we have few seeds and NO seedlings, so seems to work. The current three ewes are seven years old and in excellent health!
		
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 Thanks for that. We have three delightful Shetland sheep and are planning to get more next year so I'm hopeful this may be the way to keep the dreaded seeds at bay.


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## YorksG (23 October 2014)

The best controls are often the ones which would occur naturally, Shetland sheep are lovely but their wool is a bit tough for hand spinning


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## Patchworkpony (23 October 2014)

YorksG said:



			Shetland sheep are lovely but their wool is a bit tough for hand spinning 

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 Our last lot of Shetlands, bought years ago, had lovely fleeces and some kind lady spun all the wool for me. Now I've just got to knit myself a nice warm sweater. Might do it this winter - I've only had the wool 25 years!


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## vanrim (23 October 2014)

Thanks Red-1 for taking the time to reply. I live on the Wirral in the North West and although I do not know of any cases around this area, my field has Sycamore trees bordering in the Lane and the more info I have the better I think.





Red-1 said:



			I have no "official" knowledge on swollen legs, it was just that in the past few years two horses in a field bordered by Sycamore trees had inexplicable swollen legs. I did not happen if we came off the field and into winter arena turnout early, but did if we were out in the field longer.

You may say that I *should* have connected that, but there are always a myriad of circumstances, and I had actually put it down to the fact that when the fields are firmer I spend many a happy hour cantering in the stubble fields. This is really the only change in feed, work, horse care that I was doing. I did have some acorn drop but would sweep them up, it was not a huge problem..

First I thought I was maybe straining their legs with whoopie do work in the stubble, but these were fit eventers, so they should have coped. 

Year before last I kept the work levels on the stubble low intensity (not so much whoopie do, blah) and his legs still came up so I thought it was straw stubble putting micro pricks in the skin, and last year had started to wear sports medicine type boots when playing in the stubble. 

The legs still came up, and the last time it was both back legs, to ABOVE the hock, and both front legs to some degree. The vet was mystified, as work, feed, way of keeping etc had stayed the same. The vet also told me that they were having a lot of calls from owners about mystery swollen legs.

The legs would reduce with gentle work but not go away, and worryingly they were getting progressively worse. I reduced feed, walked out, turned out even more to keep him moving. The vet said he had seen a lot of the same.

It was when I saw Hairycob's post that I connected that his "feed" had in fact changed, as he now had Sycamore falling, that I did not know to sweep up. I moved him onto arena turnout, and the legs started to reduce almost straight away, and the swelling went in less that a week. 

So, this year we chopped down the worst offender, the one that actually overhung the paddock, and he has moved to winter arena turnout early, and his legs are perfectly normal. 

May be nothing? Too much risk for me to take though. I do think one consequence of ingesting a toxin could be a strain on the system and swollen legs. Having said that we have not been in the stubble much as it has been too wet this year.
		
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## vanrim (23 October 2014)

hairycob said:



			Mine didn't have swollen legs & I don't think that is a typical symptom. Trouble is the early symptoms are very vague. When I found Jason the things that first thoughts that ran through my head were gas colic (spring grass was growing like mad), laminitis (same reason), had he banged his poll on the field shelter. Nothing fitted which is why I called the vet straight away even though at that stage I wouldn't have blamed anyone if they had decided to check back in a couple of hours. Within 45 minutes it was clear he was very ill & 3 hours after getting to the yard he collapsed for the first time despite treatment. He only survived for 9 hours after I got to the yard. He was pts because his heart & diaphram were failing. If my pm visit had been just a couple of hours earlier I would have found a dead horse in the field & would probably have assumed he had colicked.
		
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I am so sorry you lost your horse Hairycob but you and others are doing a really good job of making us aware of the dangers and signs to look out for. Thanks again for all your input.


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## SO1 (23 October 2014)

Do you think putting grazing muzzles on them might help as I think that would make it harder for them to eat the seeds. My pony wears grazing muzzle most of the year and we have acorns as well as one sycamore. We can't remove the sycamore as it is not on the YO property. Some of the other fields have a lot more sycamore in them again not on YO property but adjoining property so can't remove.

Wearing his muzzle does make it harder to eat the acorns so presume it would be harder to eat the sycamore.

I did speak to my vet as they have had a run of cases recently and she has said it can be picked up in a blood test - {would routine blood tests spot sub clinical cases so they can be treated earlier?}. She said in a recent case one horse had to be PTS but its field mate on the same regime was fine. I expect some horses may have a natural immunity to it or the toxin is not present in all seeds from the same tree.

I think it more scary than ragwort or acorns as it harder to remove the seeds and the outcome is so poor.


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## charlie76 (24 October 2014)

My friend who lost her horse to it had turned him out in a grazing muzzle so I'm not sure if it would help, she lost hers in spring rather than autumn so they think it was seedlings rather than seeds.


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## hairycob (24 October 2014)

Went to a talk last night & v worried that people will have gone away thinking this only affects horses in poor condition, on sparse grazing during winter storms. I had to point out that my horses got it in lovely spring weather in April, they were fit & in tip top condition on fast growing grass. The vet giving the talk said he had never diagnosed a case but with hindsight suspected he had come across it.
To be fair to him the topic was a last minute request due to recent deaths but it did illustrate that if vets are not fully aware of the risks it's not surprising that owners are confused.


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## snowstormII (27 October 2014)

I had to go to this website to work out what tree I had. Phew, thankfully I have a field maple. Www.Hainaultforest.co.uk


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## L&M (27 October 2014)

I am confused - isn't a Field Maple theh same thing as a sycamore?


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## Liane (27 October 2014)

I have spoken to my vets and although people on the internet appear to be saying that Field Maple is ok as its different from Sycamore they are all types of 'Acer' tree and they could all contain the toxins.


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## Suechoccy (27 October 2014)

Animal Health Trust paper from 2013:  see page 16.  Only Sycamore is implicated in EAM, not field maple. 

http://www.aht.org.uk/skins/Default/pdfs/Defraoctl-dec2013_focus.pdf

Liphook Veterinary Surgery, May 2014, confirm the same, only sycamore is implicated in EAM, not field maple.

http://liphookequinehospital.co.uk/news/2014/05/aytypical-myopathy-have-we-lost-some-perspective/


Sycamore, at all stages of growth, has large 5-fingered leaves with pointed-tips, often gets that black spot in autumn too.

Field maple, at all stages of growth, has small delicate 5-fingered leaves with rounded tips, and doesn't get black spot.


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## Liane (27 October 2014)

The information available seems to be quite conflicting, here is a link to somewhere that states that Field Maple is included :-(

https://www.facebook.com/notes/equine-atypical-myopathy-myoglobinuria/leaflet/707746929301118


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## HaffiesRock (27 October 2014)

It is such a horrific thing to happen. There are 2 cases very close to me, who are both currently at the vets being treated (and fingers crossed, not getting any worse) Both horses came down with it after the storms we had recently. There are no nearby trees, but a huge number of seeds blew in overnight and were eaten 

My paddock borders woodlands and there is one big sycamore overhanging the fence line. I fence this off and check daily for seeds. Yesterday, when I looked up at the tree it was completely bare but there were only the odd seed in the fence area so I am hoping they have all now blown away. I will still be checking daily though until the coast is clear so to speak.

We also have a huge oak, which thankfully, didn't produce any acorns this year.


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## Suechoccy (27 October 2014)

Liane said:



			The information available seems to be quite conflicting, here is a link to somewhere that states that Field Maple is included :-(

https://www.facebook.com/notes/equine-atypical-myopathy-myoglobinuria/leaflet/707746929301118

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That link says: "in the seeds of some Acer such as Acer pseudoplatanus (= maple/Sycamore tree)"

ie maple/Sycamore tree are the common names for Acer Pseudoplatanus.

Whereas field maple (not mentioned in that facebook link) is Acer campestre.


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## Liane (27 October 2014)

Oh ok, thank you for explaining Suechoccy, my vets had said any tree in the 'Acer' family could contain the toxins.


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## Dobermann Girl (27 October 2014)

Ok I thought the seven trees In my hedge were sycamores, turns out they are maple, but they look very much like sycamore. The seeds are the same as well. So now I want to know if maple seeds are toxic to horses?


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## lelly (27 October 2014)

To be honest, the vets don't really know enough about it. They are learning more about it all the time. I would be cautious with any Acer related tree until we know more. My vet told me the leaves can be poisonous too but my friends vet said they are not.  There is too much conflicting information out there and its becoming very confusing.


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## Patchworkpony (26 November 2014)

It seems to have gone quiet on the sycamore front is that because the danger is dying down or is it because there are no new cases to report?


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## EquiEquestrian556 (26 November 2014)

Patchworkpony said:



			It seems to have gone quiet on the sycamore front is that because the danger is dying down or is it because there are no new cases to report?
		
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I hope for the sake of the horses it's because there are no new cases.


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## Evie91 (26 November 2014)

I read an article in last weeks horse and hound (think it was last week). Apparently RSPCA are advising horses should be kept off pasture with sycamore from beginning of autumn until end of spring!
I have sycamore - in and around paddocks. I was hopeful that with full blown winter weather just round the corner, I'd no longer have to worry (until spring), seems not to be the case. 
Mine come in over night - out for 8-9 hrs in the day, have hay in the field (more than they can possibly eat!) and hard food. Don't know whether this regime is working or whether so far I've just been lucky......


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## Patchworkpony (26 November 2014)

Evie91 said:



			I read an article in last weeks horse and hound (think it was last week). Apparently RSPCA are advising horses should be kept off pasture with sycamore from beginning of autumn until end of spring!
I have sycamore - in and around paddocks. I was hopeful that with full blown winter weather just round the corner, I'd no longer have to worry (until spring), seems not to be the case. 
Mine come in over night - out for 8-9 hrs in the day, have hay in the field (more than they can possibly eat!) and hard food. Don't know whether this regime is working or whether so far I've just been lucky......
		
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 The problem is for anyone surrounded by these trees it's like living on a knife edge.


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## ILuvCowparsely (1 February 2015)

I currently found a tree on our pasture we were unaware of, I think my boy's symptoms are due to sycamore poisoning.


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## Patchworkpony (1 February 2015)

HGA-12 said:



			I currently found a tree on our pasture we were unaware of, I think my boy's symptoms are due to sycamore poisoning.
		
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 Sorry haven't been following - what symptoms does he have?


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## ILuvCowparsely (1 February 2015)

Lethargic. Head low in stable heart rate increase.  Sweating   And today he nearly went down 3 times on a ride and last one was on the road .Blood test showed raised liver enzymes.


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## teabiscuit (1 February 2015)

HGA-12 I'm thinking of you and your boy, I hope he's ok.


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## Evie91 (1 February 2015)

Oh dear. When I spoke to my vet in December he said he had been to a talk on this and latest research was stating winter was a low risk/no risk time as the seeds deteriorate and lose toxicity. He was clear that spring and autumn were the risky times. This autumn particularly bad as with all of the wind we had lots fell at once, rather than over a few weeks.
So sorry to hear about your horse, hope he makes a full recovery.


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## leggs (1 February 2015)

sending healing vibes!!! how long since the sympthoms ? since today as you say it was first noticed during riding ? Hope he recovers !


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## ILuvCowparsely (1 February 2015)

leggs said:



			sending healing vibes!!! how long since the sympthoms ? since today as you say it was first noticed during riding ? Hope he recovers !
		
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It was two weeks ago when he had colic and the symptoms started then, but  going down on his knees was the first time today.


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## leggs (1 February 2015)

But he must have been better in between this time ? otherwise you wouldn't go riding ! that would make it unlikely to be sycomore poisoning from what I know.
Whatever the case, hope you find out what it is and that he makes full recovery!


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## charlie76 (1 February 2015)

If your horse has myopathy he wouldn't show symptoms then get better then worse. Horses with myoptathy are normal fine one minute and dying within the next half an hour, they don't pick up and get worse. They either get very ill and with intense vet treatment improve and stay better or they die. 
There are no warning signs , they go from well to dead in a matter of hours. 
I imagine you horse has a toxin or a virus.


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## ILuvCowparsely (1 February 2015)

leggs said:



			But he must have been better in between this time ? otherwise you wouldn't go riding ! that would make it unlikely to be sycomore poisoning from what I know.
Whatever the case, hope you find out what it is and that he makes full recovery!
		
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We have two pairs of fields he was in one pair 3 months no issue, the day he went into the other where we recently found sycamore tree was the day he had colic, heart rate up, sweating a lot. Vet said limit turnout  2 hours out 1 hour in.   Then we went out for the day and I just shut him down the bottom of the pair of fields.  He was fine, then the day after back in the top and he colic again.

 Bloods taken, vet check resulted in
 raised  laboured heart rate
 liver enzymes raised
very subdued and lethargic.
lying down a lot
.

  I in the meantime continued to limit turnout still on this pair of fields as we thought the long grass at the top end which had 7 months off was long and we thought he gorged him self.

Only tail end of last week did livery find seeds in one corner, we have been picking them up since and today we found what we suspect are  sycamore as there are leaves and seeds under it as well as this corner ONLY of the field.  The horses are in the bottom end now where no seeds have been found.

 In the meantime I am booking the vet to come back and check him as I will not leave anything to chance.


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## BraidedTail (1 February 2015)

HGA-12 said:



			Lethargic. Head low in stable heart rate increase.  Sweating   And today he nearly went down 3 times on a ride and last one was on the road .Blood test showed raised liver enzymes.
		
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Have you considered PSSM/EPSM? Colic, sweating, stumbling are some of the symptoms and also (not sure but maybe?) the raised liver enzymes too. Also suggestion is to feed a detox supplement to help liver recover. Hope you find the cause and he recovers ok.


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## ILuvCowparsely (1 February 2015)

Oh and he is now on milk thistle too.

Was thinking of a detox or  vitamin B1 and vitamin B2 might support the function of muscle cells.  Vitamins C and E might be useful as anti-oxidants.


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## ILuvCowparsely (1 February 2015)

leggs said:



			But he must have been better in between this time ? otherwise you wouldn't go riding ! that would make it unlikely to be sycomore poisoning from what I know.
Whatever the case, hope you find out what it is and that he makes full recovery!
		
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When I rode him ( 30 mins only )  vet had advised for the colic it would be good to keep him moving. 
The field now we have been drawn to the area is covered in seeds within the long grass.  We sat down and picked them up as there were so many in one place.  

Vet will come and see him asap in the meantime I am airing on the side of caution and doing what I can with the symptoms.  I went through liver disease with his mum ( un related to this ) so clued up on the liver.


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## old hand (1 February 2015)

It might be oak poisoning, that recovers and then repeats if they eat either the leaves or acorns again, I think urine is dark, other symptoms as you describe.  I lost one with poisoning about five years ago in the spring, he died in 36 hours ( or rather I had him PTS before he died)  . my vet said total organ failure, he was a healthy 14 year old.  I think now it was sycamore poisoning at the time we thought oak but he did not improve for being taken off the field.  he was fine in the evening and very ill having lost an enormous amount of weight overnight,  no colic but kidneys, heart and liver failed, brain ok.


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## PollyP99 (1 February 2015)

The symptoms you describe (head low, lethargic, sweating, colic like) are all classic signs of sycamore poisoning.  Mild cases have been reported, in the case in my family only one horse was drastically affected and close to death quickly, the others showed varying degrees of illness as you describe.  Hopefully you've been lucky, either way you need the vet pronto, if he ran bloods then should know if it's AM and your horse needs treatment.  Fingers crossed for you.  The one close to death survived and is still showing weird blood results so in very light work, almost a year after suffering the first time.  The others are back to normal.


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## SO1 (1 February 2015)

If his muscle enzymes are normal it is unlikely to be sycamore, has he been exposed to ragwort as that does affect the liver.

Hope your horse makes a good recovery.


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## ILuvCowparsely (1 February 2015)

SO1 said:



			If his muscle enzymes are normal it is unlikely to be sycamore, has he been exposed to ragwort as that does affect the liver.

Hope your horse makes a good recovery.
		
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No chance of ragwort as we are eagle eyed and dee poo the fields daily and have a ragwort fork on the back of the trailer so de ragwort as we see them.  We zig zag across the fields   one on tractor two dee pooing and dee ragworting.

 All the horses are now on the bottom end of the field untill the top is safe and a tree surgeon coming to morrow to examine tree(s) and confirm they are sycamore and will check the rest of the property and will fell the offending trees.

 I don't like cutting trees down but when the need arises and my horses and livery are at risk then so be it.   In their place we will plant an apple tree  or two so although we strip nature of two trees, we will plant two or one back.

 My boy got worst ONLY got ill when  he was in this top end, and there are oak trees over hanging all the other fields where he and the others have been fine for many years.


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## ILuvCowparsely (1 February 2015)

duplicate post


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## SO1 (1 February 2015)

I think removing the seeds and trees is definitely the right thing to do as it reduces the risk of sycamore poisoning but I would not presume that this is what is wrong with your horse until you have a positive diagnosis from the vet.


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## Peregrine Falcon (1 February 2015)

What a worrying time.  Hope vet finds cause.  I discovered sycamore seeds far away from the two trees in a neighbouring field I was just about to open up for my two girls.  Electric fence quickly put up and owner of said trees informed.  She has offered to chop them down for us.


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## Clodagh (2 February 2015)

Careful replacing with apples though, they could gorge on windfalls. How about a nice native tree like a hawthorn?


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## Adopter (2 February 2015)

Clodagh said:



			Careful replacing with apples though, they could gorge on windfalls. How about a nice native tree like a hawthorn?
		
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There are quick growing  varieties which are worth looking out for.

Hope you can find out cause and recovery is quick.  I took the advice on here and put an ele tric fence across my paddock in front of field maples which have winged seeds and are sycamore family even though we have grazed round them for 30 years previously.


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