# Patrick Kittell..



## KellyJoArnold (3 August 2012)

What time is his test today? I dont know if i've missed it! 

Thanks! 
x


----------



## Copperpot (3 August 2012)

2.44pm.


----------



## Charlie-Brown (3 August 2012)

14.44 i think....


----------



## KellyJoArnold (3 August 2012)

Thankyou!! Thought i had missed it!! 

Going to 'boo' from the comfort of my sofa!!


----------



## Copperpot (3 August 2012)

I was going out to ride after watching Charlotte. But gonna wait in now and see what the crowds reaction to him is


----------



## melissa1971 (3 August 2012)

Im the same was going to go out after Charlotte but really want to see the crowds reaction


----------



## tallyho! (3 August 2012)

Think he has been disqualified... Not sure but check anky panky thread.


----------



## Slightly Foxed (3 August 2012)

Which channel is it on?


----------



## micramadam (3 August 2012)

Not condoning his use of rollkur but he is generally a nice person.


----------



## tallyho! (3 August 2012)

Yes a very nice person who uses rollkur to train his very nice horses.


----------



## Holbert (3 August 2012)

He's up now according to the London 2012 site.


----------



## JFTDWS (3 August 2012)

well he's on now.  feeling very stabby here.


----------



## gillianclaude (3 August 2012)

About to go in now! http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/olympics/2012/live-video/p00w305c


----------



## KellyJoArnold (3 August 2012)

Slightly Foxed said:



			Which channel is it on?
		
Click to expand...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/olympics/2012/live-video/p00w305c


----------



## tallyho! (3 August 2012)

Can't believe he's on!!!


----------



## Copperpot (3 August 2012)

Test not going well thou. Shame


----------



## JFTDWS (3 August 2012)

horse spooked at something after the rein back   and just tried to rear slightly coming out of piaffe / lost balance.


----------



## micramadam (3 August 2012)

Honestly he is a nice person just needs to learn that Rollkur is not the way to do it. 
I really wish you lot could see the way the majority of dressage riders train over here. I'm not just talking about the top tiers but all the way down the line. Rollkur all the way. It's downright disgusting and most of them think they're not doing anything wrong and that's not the half of it. 

Let's just say that I am quite happy to stick with being the eccentric Brit.


----------



## JFTDWS (3 August 2012)

micramadam said:



			Honestly he is a nice person just needs to learn that Rollkur is not the way to do it. 
I really wish you lot could see the way the majority of dressage riders train over here. I'm not just talking about the top tiers but all the way down the line. Rollkur all the way. It's downright disgusting and most of them think they're not doing anything wrong and that's not the half of it. 

Let's just say that I am quite happy to stick with being the eccentric Brit.
		
Click to expand...

There's a reason I won't support the Dutch or the Germans et al in competitive dressage.  In fact, I'm not comfortable watching a lot of the horses on show today, if I'm honest.


----------



## tallyho! (3 August 2012)

No boos even though the horse misunderstood the rein back and hyper flexed for everyone to see.


----------



## DragonSlayer (3 August 2012)

JFTD said:



			There's a reason I won't support the Dutch or the Germans et al in competitive dressage.  In fact, I'm not comfortable watching a lot of the horses on show today, if I'm honest.
		
Click to expand...

I decided not to turn on at all to watch it, yes, of course I'm supporting Team GB, but if the FEI won't get their arses into gear to sort this out, then I won't support dressage.


----------



## JFTDWS (3 August 2012)

DragonSlayer said:



			I decided not to turn on at all to watch it, yes, of course I'm supporting Team GB, but if the FEI won't get their arses into gear to sort this out, then I won't support dressage.
		
Click to expand...

I turned it on and am now incensed by the manner of some of the horses' going, the judging, the commentary (not MT ) and PK's appearance.  It was a bad decision.


----------



## DragonSlayer (3 August 2012)

JFTD said:



			I turned it on and am now incensed by the manner of some of the horses' going, the judging, the commentary (not MT ) and PK's appearance.  It was a bad decision.
		
Click to expand...

...can you not crack open some wine to alleviate your pain in doing so...??

It IS Friday afterall!


----------



## tallyho! (3 August 2012)

Pour me some too...


----------



## Natch (3 August 2012)

tallyho! said:



			No boos even though the horse misunderstood the rein back and hyper flexed for everyone to see.
		
Click to expand...

Regardless of our opinion of how he trains, I suppose it would be unsporting of the crowd to do something that would potentially put the horse or rider off their test.

Disappointed not to see turned backs. I guess the message didn't get there in time.


----------



## chestnut cob (3 August 2012)

Interesting that JH makes lots of comments about the lack of rhythm, lack of self carriage, BTV etc etc.  By comparison CH and CD's tests were lovely and fluent... stark illustration of their ways of training maybe?!


----------



## JFTDWS (3 August 2012)

Great idea, if I didn't have to drive up the yard later.  Besides, alcohol makes me even more mad.  I just screamed at the female commentator for comments about contact which do not correlate with my beliefs.  I think I have issues


----------



## KellyJoArnold (3 August 2012)

I muted it, that woman sends me to sleep!!!


----------



## JFTDWS (3 August 2012)

chestnut cob said:



			Interesting that JH makes lots of comments about the lack of rhythm, lack of self carriage, BTV etc etc.  By comparison CH and CD's tests were lovely and fluent... stark illustration of their ways of training maybe?!
		
Click to expand...

Personally, as far as I can see, her commentary is horrifically biased.  But clearly she is more in keeping with the judges beliefs than I am


----------



## WoopsiiD (3 August 2012)

DragonSlayer said:



			I decided not to turn on at all to watch it, yes, of course I'm supporting Team GB, but if the FEI won't get their arses into gear to sort this out, then I won't support dressage.
		
Click to expand...

Hear Hear.
I watch Charlotte and turned off the TV. 
Opening a can of worms but if you don't support it why watch? Even if you say you are watching for reaction of crowds or to see him F'up you are still watching???


----------



## chestnut cob (3 August 2012)

JFTD said:



			Personally, as far as I can see, her commentary is horrifically biased.  But clearly she is more in keeping with the judges beliefs than I am 

Click to expand...

Biased in what way?  I'd say she's erring on the side of caution but she *did* comment about BTV and lack of fluency in the test.  Did you really expect her to say "this guy trains his horses in the most horrible way and that is borne out by the fact his horse is constantly BTV and pulled in"...??!


----------



## Rosehip (3 August 2012)

Seriously! You guys have nothing better to do than pick pick pick at a professional rider who occasionally puts his horses in a hyperflexed position for a time during warm up or training. All of the video's I have seen on him have blatantly been cut together to 'show' that he is in rolkur for much longer than he actually is. And on the vid I saw on the daily mail site there were 3 other riders using hyperflexion in their warm up - I notice the camera didnt pan to them. 

If people want something to rant about, go out and see the obese ponies in fields of ragwort, emaciated ponies locked in stables full off their own feaces, show ponies tied in side reins to ensure they look 'on the bit' and have topline, jumpers with spiked boots and blisters...look at the Big Lick video's on Youtube!! 

If a few moments of hyperflexion are all you have to worry about then you are lucky!

My mare puts herself into rolkur when she is excited and evading the bit!


----------



## JFTDWS (3 August 2012)

chestnut cob said:



			Biased in what way?  I'd say she's erring on the side of caution but she *did* comment about BTV and lack of fluency in the test.  Did you really expect her to say "this guy trains his horses in the most horrible way and that is borne out by the fact his horse is constantly BTV and pulled in"...??! 

Click to expand...

Not at all, I actually meant during CDJ's test which was obviously very highly scoring but it wasn't perfect.  I would also have liked her not to say "good girl" every fifteen sodding seconds and to acknowledge that there were less than perfect moments (as she has for every other rider).  Patriotism is very admirable, but they have a duty to some degree of impartiality.

(And no, I did not expect comments on rollkur on commentary.  That would be grossly improper.)


----------



## tallyho! (3 August 2012)

Naturally said:



			Regardless of our opinion of how he trains, I suppose it would be unsporting of the crowd to do something that would potentially put the horse or rider off their test.

Disappointed not to see turned backs. I guess the message didn't get there in time.
		
Click to expand...

A sad day for horses. This could have been the time to highlight what goes on to a potentially large audience.

It isn't the end. More dressage in next few days. there is still plenty of commentary to come. Campaigners have not lost the battle yet 

Say no to rollkur!!


----------



## JFTDWS (3 August 2012)

WoopsiiD said:



			Opening a can of worms but if you don't support it why watch? Even if you say you are watching for reaction of crowds or to see him F'up you are still watching???
		
Click to expand...

Very good point.  I'm transfixed.  I want to turn over, but I keep hoping I will see something better.  

fwiw, I've enjoyed the Spanish and Portugese contributions thus far.


----------



## Jesstickle (3 August 2012)

Rosehip said:



			Seriously! You guys have nothing better to do than pick pick pick at a professional rider who occasionally puts his horses in a hyperflexed position for a time during warm up or training. All of the video's I have seen on him have blatantly been cut together to 'show' that he is in rolkur for much longer than he actually is. And on the vid I saw on the daily mail site there were 3 other riders using hyperflexion in their warm up - I notice the camera didnt pan to them. 

If people want something to rant about, go out and see the obese ponies in fields of ragwort, emaciated ponies locked in stables full off their own feaces, show ponies tied in side reins to ensure they look 'on the bit' and have topline, jumpers with spiked boots and blisters...look at the Big Lick video's on Youtube!! 

If a few moments of hyperflexion are all you have to worry about then you are lucky!

My mare puts herself into rolkur when she is excited and evading the bit!
		
Click to expand...

Rosehip, you genuinely surprise me. 

Do you not think that with dressage particularly teetering on the brink of being thrown out of the Olympics this sort of thing is terrible for equestrianism?

Do you want to be represented in sport by people using these techniques? I certainly don't want people to think that is what horse riding is about. We suffer enough 'posh/rich/snooty' stereotypes already. Do we also need cruel thrown in with those?


----------



## WoopsiiD (3 August 2012)

JFTD said:



			Very good point.  I'm transfixed.  I want to turn over, but I keep hoping I will see something better.  

fwiw, I've enjoyed the Spanish and Portugese contributions thus far.
		
Click to expand...

I can see that point of view too!
I will admit a bit of me wanted to watch him but it non horsey OH who mentioned that the watching figures don't count how many are watching to enjoy and how many are watching to boo. Would be good if it did though!!

I watched a few before PK and was amazed at some of the skills of the Spanish and Portugese too. They still made it look like a dance between horse and rider.


----------



## pookie (3 August 2012)

Rosehip said:



			Seriously! You guys have nothing better to do than pick pick pick at a professional rider who occasionally puts his horses in a hyperflexed position for a time during warm up or training.
		
Click to expand...

I hope you're complaining about people with "nothing better to do" on every other thread, including those _far_ more trivial than this.



Rosehip said:



			If a few moments of hyperflexion are all you have to worry about then you are lucky!
		
Click to expand...

I'm not sure we're restricted to one issue of concern each.


----------



## chestnut cob (3 August 2012)

JFTD said:



			Not at all, I actually meant during CDJ's test which was obviously very highly scoring but it wasn't perfect.  I would also have liked her not to say "good girl" every fifteen sodding seconds and to acknowledge that there were less than perfect moments (as she has for every other rider).  Patriotism is very admirable, but they have a duty to some degree of impartiality.

(And no, I did not expect comments on rollkur on commentary.  That would be grossly improper.)
		
Click to expand...

I agree there, I did notice the "good girl" bits.  Sounded more like she was giving her a lesson!


----------



## tallyho! (3 August 2012)

Rosehip said:



			Seriously! You guys have nothing better to do than pick pick pick at a professional rider who occasionally puts his horses in a hyperflexed position for a time during warm up or training. All of the video's I have seen on him have blatantly been cut together to 'show' that he is in rolkur for much longer than he actually is. And on the vid I saw on the daily mail site there were 3 other riders using hyperflexion in their warm up - I notice the camera didnt pan to them. 

If people want something to rant about, go out and see the obese ponies in fields of ragwort, emaciated ponies locked in stables full off their own feaces, show ponies tied in side reins to ensure they look 'on the bit' and have topline, jumpers with spiked boots and blisters...look at the Big Lick video's on Youtube!! 

If a few moments of hyperflexion are all you have to worry about then you are lucky!

My mare puts herself into rolkur when she is excited and evading the bit!
		
Click to expand...

Whoa! Did you just tell us off for disagreeing with rollkur?


----------



## Ibblebibble (3 August 2012)

Rosehip, people do rant quite frequently about the issues you have mentioned, but the olympic dressage is a current issue and therefore the rolkur issue is foremost in peoples minds right now. what annoys most is the fact that the FEI have 'banned' rolkur but still turn a blind eye to it, ragwort is not banned, obese ponies are not illegal and i've never seen anyone on HHO say that emaciated ponies in their own faeces is acceptable! but why should we also just turn a blind eye to rolkur just because the FEI do?!


----------



## Princess Jess (3 August 2012)

JFTD said:



			Not at all, I actually meant during CDJ's test which was obviously very highly scoring but it wasn't perfect.  I would also have liked her not to say "good girl" every fifteen sodding seconds and to acknowledge that there were less than perfect moments (as she has for every other rider).  Patriotism is very admirable, but they have a duty to some degree of impartiality.
		
Click to expand...

I'm glad its not just me that found the 'good girl' irritating if not a little patronising 
I like that the commentators are patriotic when the British riders come on but I think their patriotic comments should be limited to before and after the test...during the test it would be nice to see some impartiality and constructive criticism.


----------



## DragonSlayer (3 August 2012)

Rosehip said:



			Seriously! You guys have nothing better to do than pick pick pick at a professional rider who occasionally puts his horses in a hyperflexed position for a time during warm up or training. All of the video's I have seen on him have blatantly been cut together to 'show' that he is in rolkur for much longer than he actually is. And on the vid I saw on the daily mail site there were 3 other riders using hyperflexion in their warm up - I notice the camera didnt pan to them. 

If people want something to rant about, go out and see the obese ponies in fields of ragwort, emaciated ponies locked in stables full off their own feaces, show ponies tied in side reins to ensure they look 'on the bit' and have topline, jumpers with spiked boots and blisters...look at the Big Lick video's on Youtube!! 

If a few moments of hyperflexion are all you have to worry about then you are lucky!

My mare puts herself into rolkur when she is excited and evading the bit!
		
Click to expand...

If you wish to support those who use a banned technique, then that is up to you. HOWEVER, you do NOT have the right to rant at those who have a genuine concern over the fact that the use of this technique is not being policed. 

If I chose to not watch the dressage because I believe the governing body are doing jack ***** to police it, then I will not watch it, and I will tell others the reason I am not watching it. It is not 'pick pick pick', it is a discussion on why the hell a huge organisation is NOT dealing with an issue that is clearly not allowed.

What you allow your horse to do is your choice, but it does not give you the right to be telling me what I should and should not be doing.


----------



## WoopsiiD (3 August 2012)

Rosehip-Its abuse. Clear and Simple!
I believe that thankfully we all have the freedom of speech. 
I don't agree with fat ponies, I get angry when I see fields full of ponies fat or thin surrounded by yellow and I will happily report anyone who abuses an animal be it chicken, cat or horse.
Just because he is a pro rider does not make it right.
Just because your horse does it voluntarily in the field or while evading the bit does not mean that it should be a training aid.
I too was unaware that we were limited to having one 'cause'.


----------



## Hedwards (3 August 2012)

JFTD said:



			Not at all, I actually meant during CDJ's test which was obviously very highly scoring but it wasn't perfect.  I would also have liked her not to say "good girl" every fifteen sodding seconds and to acknowledge that there were less than perfect moments (as she has for every other rider).  Patriotism is very admirable, but they have a duty to some degree of impartiality.

(And no, I did not expect comments on rollkur on commentary.  That would be grossly improper.)
		
Click to expand...




chestnut cob said:



			I agree there, I did notice the "good girl" bits.  Sounded more like she was giving her a lesson! 

Click to expand...




Princess Jess said:



			I'm glad its not just me that found the 'good girl' irritating if not a little patronising 
I like that the commentators are patriotic when the British riders come on but I think their patriotic comments should be limited to before and after the test...during the test it would be nice to see some impartiality and constructive criticism.
		
Click to expand...

I think to be fair, CDJ used to be one of her pupils, so it may well have been a subconcious 'good girl' - not saying its right for her to be biased, but also incredibly difficult not to be... (mind you Mike Tucker and Scotty were fairly biased in the eventing too...)


----------



## Rosehip (3 August 2012)

Im surprised that people are picking *just* on PK....as far as I have seen (and I work in dressage) everyone has at some time or another had a horse in a hyperflexed state.
I see nothing wrong in taking a horse who isnt listening to the seat or the bridle into a deep outline and saying hang on matey, listen. 
IMHO I would rather see a horse go into rolkur for 2 mins than see someone kick hell out of one with spurs on, or belt it with a whip! The tap, tap, tap, nag, nag, nag of a schooling whip makes me want to do it to the rider!!

I dont like to hear/see equestrianism being portrayed as an elitist sport, or as a cruel sport, but I dont see how hyperflexion is seen as worse than horses with spur wheals, cut mouths, whip marks that are seen at some shows. 

There are many many many worse things that could happen to a horse than a little hyperflexion in a workout. 

Pootle, no, one is not limited to one concern apiece, nor am I commenting on every thread I find banal, as that is a waste of my time. Are you being deliberately pedantic or have you a bee in your bonnet?

I merely feel that there are a lot more things to fret over than a german rider hyperflexing for a few minutes in a warm up.


ETA: Im well aware that Rolkur is banned - however it is only banned when going over the length of time the FEI allow. Those who wish to use Rolkur in short bursts are allowed to do so, and as such I find nothing wrong with it. 
I do disagree with constant hyperflexion. The video of PK warming up has been cut to make it seem that he is in constant rolkur, when he infact is not.


----------



## JFTDWS (3 August 2012)

Princess Jess said:



			I'm glad its not just me that found the 'good girl' irritating if not a little patronising 
I like that the commentators are patriotic when the British riders come on but I think their patriotic comments should be limited to before and after the test...during the test it would be nice to see some impartiality and constructive criticism.
		
Click to expand...




chestnut cob said:



			I agree there, I did notice the "good girl" bits.  Sounded more like she was giving her a lesson! 

Click to expand...

Completely agree.  I would have had so much more respect for her if she'd had the courage to "criticise" or at least point out where the test could have been improved.  Patriotism shouldn't blind the commentary, though I do appreciate it outside of the tests! 



WoopsiiD said:



			I watched a few before PK and was amazed at some of the skills of the Spanish and Portugese too. They still made it look like a dance between horse and rider.
		
Click to expand...

Glad it's not just me.  To me, there was some perfection there


----------



## Jesstickle (3 August 2012)

Umm. He's Swedish? 

And most people are quite specific that they want the FEI to ban and police properly every use of Rollkur. It just so happens Kittel is bearing the brunt for being a repeat offender!


----------



## tallyho! (3 August 2012)

Rosehip, I get what you mean. We are focusing on it because he was nearly banned for it last time and here he is, back in the limelight. 

There is so much horse abuse discussed on this forum. It just so happens to be that this one is about rollkur, and about kittell.


----------



## pookie (3 August 2012)

Rosehip said:



			Pootle, no, one is not limited to one concern apiece, nor am I commenting on every thread I find banal, as that is a waste of my time. Are you being deliberately pedantic or have you a bee in your bonnet?
		
Click to expand...

An interesting reply, considering your first post on this thread.



Rosehip said:



			I merely feel that there are a lot more things to fret over than a german rider hyperflexing for a few minutes in a warm up.
		
Click to expand...

He's Swedish (<--- THAT'S pedantic )


----------



## Munchkin (3 August 2012)

It's becoming apparent to the naked eye, in watching the tests, which horses were trained in hyperflexion.

If it doesn't affect them, Rosehip... why does it alter their way of going so much?

And if it doesn't, why use the technique at all?

Rollkur is NOT used to correct a horse and make it listen, it is used to produce a flashy and false front end - a current fashion in dressage. I am surprised that you work in dressage yet do not know that.

Finally, this practice is banned. If riders are breaking the rules, they should be pulled up on it. Seems you cannot break the rules in other sports and get away with it like you can in dressage.


----------



## Jesstickle (3 August 2012)

pookie said:



			He's Swedish (<--- THAT'S pedantic )
		
Click to expand...

Beat you to it


----------



## pookie (3 August 2012)

jesstickle said:



			Beat you to it 

Click to expand...

I noticed  I was still trying to work out why _I_ have a bee in my bonnet


----------



## Jesstickle (3 August 2012)

pookie said:



			I noticed  I was still trying to work out why _I_ have a bee in my bonnet 

Click to expand...

P'raps it flew in and got stuck. They quite often come in down the chimney I think 

We can be pedants together.


----------



## zefragile (3 August 2012)

Judy Harvey was probably more nervous than any of us watching Charlotte's test, I think she can be excused for a few "good girl"s


----------



## Jesstickle (3 August 2012)

a load more pictures have just appeared on the FEI's Facebook page. All telling the same story.


----------



## Rosehip (3 August 2012)

Munchkin said:



			It's becoming apparent to the naked eye, in watching the tests, which horses were trained in hyperflexion.

If it doesn't affect them, Rosehip... why does it alter their way of going so much?

And if it doesn't, why use the technique at all?

Rollkur is NOT used to correct a horse and make it listen, it is used to produce a flashy and false front end - a current fashion in dressage. I am surprised that you work in dressage yet do not know that.

Finally, this practice is banned. If riders are breaking the rules, they should be pulled up on it. Seems you cannot break the rules in other sports and get away with it like you can in dressage.
		
Click to expand...


I use rolkur to bring the horse I am riding back into my hands and listening to my leg. If I feel that they are dropping onto the forehand and evading my instruction/seat/hands, then they are dropped into a deep, round outline, sat on their hocks and then set back up to work lightly and in a correct outline. 
Hyperflexion as a training tool to produce a Totilas front end is not accaptable (as Toto's front end is too much like a spanish walk anyway, and has too many 'broken angles') and riders should be punished/downpointed for that, hyperflexion used in training to bring the horse back, sit it and lift the outline is IMO fine.

I dont give a monkeys if PK is swedish, german, chinese or a dolphin, I find it uncomfortable that he is the sole recipient of all this bile, when hyperflexion is so widely used. Have you seen some of the show jumpers warm up??

If the FEI have banned *all* forms of rolkur/hyperflexion, then perhaps the vitriol should be directed more in their direction that they arent policing their own rules.


----------



## martlin (3 August 2012)

I don't think that making a horse's tongue go blue is acceptable for any purpose. I find it rather disgusting that the FEI won't act.


----------



## pookie (3 August 2012)

martlin said:



			I don't think that making a horse's tongue go blue is acceptable for any purpose. I find it rather disgusting that the FEI won't act.
		
Click to expand...

^^ THIS!


----------



## WoopsiiD (3 August 2012)

Rosehip-genuine question...Why do you feel the need to use an FEI banned method?


----------



## Jesstickle (3 August 2012)

Rosehip said:



			If the FEI have banned *all* forms of rolkur/hyperflexion, then perhaps the vitriol should be directed more in their direction that they arent policing their own rules.
		
Click to expand...

I think you'll find it is 

https://www.facebook.com/the.fei


----------



## Munchkin (3 August 2012)

See, I think there is a huge difference in working deep and round, to forcefully crushing the underside neck muscle to shorten it. Which is what Rollkur is ridden to achieve.

Are you admitting to forceably using a curb rein to fold the horse's neck as far as it'll go, and holding it there, whether the horse is moving forward or not?  Because if not, I'm not sure we are talking about the same thing.

http://krysiakdressage.webs.com/anky.jpg

If anyone honestly needs to pull back so hard on the curb rein that they need their lower leg for leverage, may I suggest that they shouldn't be sitting on a horse?


----------



## Pearlsasinger (3 August 2012)

Rosehip said:



			Seriously! You guys have nothing better to do than pick pick pick at a professional rider who occasionally puts his horses in a hyperflexed position for a time during warm up or training. All of the video's I have seen on him have blatantly been cut together to 'show' that he is in rolkur for much longer than he actually is. And on the vid I saw on the daily mail site there were 3 other riders using hyperflexion in their warm up - I notice the camera didnt pan to them. 

If people want something to rant about, go out and see the obese ponies in fields of ragwort, emaciated ponies locked in stables full off their own feaces, show ponies tied in side reins to ensure they look 'on the bit' and have topline, jumpers with spiked boots and blisters...look at the Big Lick video's on Youtube!! 

If a few moments of hyperflexion are all you have to worry about then you are lucky!

My mare puts herself into rolkur when she is excited and evading the bit!
		
Click to expand...

Seriously.
Have you never heard the saying 'Two wrongs, don't make a right'?
There are a lot of things wrong in the horse world - they have to be put right one by one.  The sport's governing body is best placed to put dressage right.  Now would be a good opportunity.


----------



## Jesstickle (3 August 2012)

so you do this to your horse rosehip?


----------



## WoopsiiD (3 August 2012)

Every time I see those pictures I just wonder how anyone can justify that? 
Surely you ride because you love and respect the horse as a species?
Seriously-can someone who agrees with this method tell me why? I'm open to opinions.


----------



## Vizslak (3 August 2012)

Rosehip said:



			ETA: Im well aware that Rolkur is banned - however it is only banned when going over the length of time the FEI allow. Those who wish to use Rolkur in short bursts are allowed to do so, and as such I find nothing wrong with it. 
I do disagree with constant hyperflexion. The video of PK warming up has been cut to make it seem that he is in constant rolkur, when he infact is not.
		
Click to expand...

Rollkur is banned full stop, Low deep round and long deep round are allowed for short periods (ten minutes)


----------



## Munchkin (3 August 2012)

Rosehip, not constantly?  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8hIXGiV4N4k

If you support this, despite the fact that it is banned (with good reason) then why on EARTH are you around horses?


----------



## MerrySherryRider (3 August 2012)

Rosehip said:



			I use rolkur to bring the horse I am riding back into my hands and listening to my leg. If I feel that they are dropping onto the forehand and evading my instruction/seat/hands, then they are dropped into a deep, round outline, sat on their hocks and then set back up to work lightly and in a correct outline.
		
Click to expand...

Really ? I suppose that's one way. Does it work ? You know, the 'lightly' and 'correct outline' bit.

Used to be called heavy hands.


----------



## BeesKnees (3 August 2012)

Rosehip said:



			I use rolkur to bring the horse I am riding back into my hands and listening to my leg. If I feel that they are dropping onto the forehand and evading my instruction/seat/hands, then they are dropped into a deep, round outline, sat on their hocks and then set back up to work lightly and in a correct outline. .
		
Click to expand...

I'm sorry but biomechanically that is absolute nonsense. If you haul the front end in all you do is put the horse on the forehand. See Phillips Karl' s videos and books for detailed explanations about why this happens. 

If however you wish to bully your horse into ' shut down' submission, and possibly cause hypoxia ( which would arguably result in the same thing) then Rolkur is perfect.

Just spend some time with your chin rammed onto your chest and see how tense you feel across your shoulders and back. How people can argue that such a technique can create lightness, thoroughness across the back and 'sit' through the back end, is beyond me.


----------



## Vizslak (3 August 2012)

Munchkin said:



			Rosehip, not constantly?  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8hIXGiV4N4k

If you support this, despite the fact that it is banned (with good reason) then why on EARTH are you around horses?
		
Click to expand...

Also to note on that video, pleasingly, if you watch every other competitor in that warm up none have their horses in Rollkur, even momentarily


----------



## pookie (3 August 2012)

Vizslak said:





Munchkin said:



			Rosehip, not constantly?  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8hIXGiV4N4k

If you support this, despite the fact that it is banned (with good reason) then why on EARTH are you around horses?
		
Click to expand...

Also to note on that video, pleasingly, if you watch every other competitor in that warm up none have their horses in Rollkur, even momentarily
		
Click to expand...

Ah, you're both blind...that's clever editing, that is  Suspiciously seamless, obviously


----------



## Vizslak (3 August 2012)

to me, you can see quite plainly a horse trained a lot in rollkur, the total opposite of making them sit on their hinds and work through it gives their hind ends a very weak appearance. I thought Scandic looked very weak behind in comparison to a lot of his counterparts out there today IMHO of course and I'm not saying 'weak' in that he was unable to complete the movements, he had some nice moments in his test actually, but just weak in that he is lacking of muscle and power through his hindquarters.


----------



## WoopsiiD (3 August 2012)

Charlotte Dujardin 83.663% 
I don't believe this rider has ever been linked to Rollkur.
So why the need?

Hard work and soft hands deserves the Gold.
In dressage there should be no shortcuts at an animal's expense.
The silent partner has been abused for too long and its about time enough of us became his voice and stood up to 'riders/bullies' (choose your own word) and the FEI.


----------



## WoopsiiD (3 August 2012)

Vizslak said:



			to me, you can see quite plainly a horse trained a lot in rollkur, the total opposite of making them sit on their hinds and work through it gives their hind ends a very weak appearance. I thought Scandic looked very weak behind in comparison to a lot of his counterparts out there today IMHO of course and I'm not saying 'weak' in that he was unable to complete the movements, he had some nice moments in his test actually, but just weak in that he is lacking of muscle and power through his hindquarters.
		
Click to expand...

I was going to say something along these lines but then realised that really I'm not qualified enough and what I was seeing could be pulled to pieces by people who actually watch dressage.
To me Charlotte's ride was harmony. I saw an honest horse dance with his rider.


----------



## PolarSkye (3 August 2012)

WoopsiiD said:



			Charlotte Dujardin 83.663% 
I don't believe this rider has ever been linked to Rollkur.
So why the need?

Hard work and soft hands deserves the Gold.
In dressage there should be no shortcuts at an animal's expense.
The silent partner has been abused for too long and its about time enough of us became his voice and stood up to 'riders/bullies' (choose your own word) and the FEI.
		
Click to expand...

This.  And, oh by the way, I thought the same thing when I watched Carl Hester ride.  Just look at Uthopia's angles . . . the front end matches the back end . . . no hoiking the front end in to create a false outline, no extravagant front legs/trailing back legs, no overt tension . . . just grace and harmony.

Everything Charlotte and Carl achieve can be done without Rollkur.

P


----------



## Booboos (3 August 2012)

BeesKnees said:



			I'm sorry but biomechanically that is absolute nonsense. If you haul the front end in all you do is put the horse on the forehand. See Phillips Karl' s videos and books for detailed explanations about why this happens. 

If however you wish to bully your horse into ' shut down' submission, and possibly cause hypoxia ( which would arguably result in the same thing) then Rolkur is perfect.

Just spend some time with your chin rammed onto your chest and see how tense you feel across your shoulders and back. How people can argue that such a technique can create lightness, thoroughness across the back and 'sit' through the back end, is beyond me.
		
Click to expand...

Since scientific evidence seems to be at the crux of this debate would you mind linking to the published studies (in peer reviewed journals please) that show that rollkur causes hypoxia and 'shut down' submission (not sure what this last term is but would be interested in reading more about it)? I have an ongoing interest in this but have yet failed to find any evidence to back these claims.

(I don't find the cross species analogy very convincing as on the one hand my cat spends a long time curled up with her chin on her neck with no adverse effects, while on the other if I tried to walk on all fours for even a few hours I would be in serious pain)


----------



## Queenbee (3 August 2012)

Rosehip said:



			Seriously! You guys have nothing better to do than pick pick pick at a professional rider who occasionally puts his horses in a hyperflexed position for a time during warm up or training. All of the video's I have seen on him have blatantly been cut together to 'show' that he is in rolkur for much longer than he actually is. And on the vid I saw on the daily mail site there were 3 other riders using hyperflexion in their warm up - I notice the camera didnt pan to them. 

If people want something to rant about, go out and see the obese ponies in fields of ragwort, emaciated ponies locked in stables full off their own feaces, show ponies tied in side reins to ensure they look 'on the bit' and have topline, jumpers with spiked boots and blisters...look at the Big Lick video's on Youtube!! 

If a few moments of hyperflexion are all you have to worry about then you are lucky!

My mare puts herself into rolkur when she is excited and evading the bit!
		
Click to expand...

I have to say that to some extent I get where you are coming from, even in 'At Home With Carl Hester' Carl talks about the use of rolkur 'sparingly as part of a horses training to increase and promote elasticity.  Unfortunately there IS over use and abuse of the method within the other nations... So just seeing these nations use it if even for a short period is understandably going to make peoples blood boil.


----------



## Marydoll (3 August 2012)

DragonSlayer said:



			If you wish to support those who use a banned technique, then that is up to you. HOWEVER, you do NOT have the right to rant at those who have a genuine concern over the fact that the use of this technique is not being policed. 

If I chose to not watch the dressage because I believe the governing body are doing jack ***** to police it, then I will not watch it, and I will tell others the reason I am not watching it. It is not 'pick pick pick', it is a discussion on why the hell a huge organisation is NOT dealing with an issue that is clearly not allowed.

What you allow your horse to do is your choice, but it does not give you the right to be telling me what I should and should not be doing.
		
Click to expand...

Well said


----------



## kerilli (3 August 2012)

I'm ignoring all the rest, some of which is risible, most of which has already been very eloquently answered, but this bit 


Rosehip said:



			My mare puts herself into rolkur when she is excited and evading the bit!
		
Click to expand...

really does make me gape. You cannot possibly be trying to compare a position which a horse assumes fleetingly, with, presumably, no mechanical compulsion, with a forced position attained with a curb?  
Oh yes, sorry, you are. Unreal.

Rollkur is about compulsion, force. If a ridden horse ducks into the position behind the contact, is it NOT rollkur. We have to be careful about getting hysterical about it,  and assuming that ANY picture of a horse deep and round is in rollkur... but claiming that a horse evading the contact is in rollkur.... I am boggled.


----------



## stencilface (3 August 2012)

kerilli said:



			I'm ignoring all the rest, some of which is risible, most of which has already been very eloquently answered, but this bit 


really does make me gape. You cannot possibly be trying to compare a position which a horse assumes fleetingly, with, presumably, no mechanical compulsion, with a forced position attained with a curb?  
Oh yes, sorry, you are. Unreal.

Rollkur is about compulsion, force. If a ridden horse ducks into the position behind the contact, is it NOT rollkur. We have to be careful about getting hysterical about it,  and assuming that ANY picture of a horse deep and round is in rollkur... but claiming that a horse evading the contact is in rollkur.... I am boggled.
		
Click to expand...

This. It grates when people comment that showjumpers are ridden in rolkur, when in fact if they are, generally it is a momentary evasion/debate between horse and rider


----------



## Vizslak (3 August 2012)

I too am very keen for people to not to be hysterical and to be able to differentiate between what is and isnt rollkur, LDR is a neccessary training method (actually that MOST horses would benefit from if done correctly day in day out) it makes the horse soft and supple over the back, I would rather see overbent horses working LDR properly through from behind any day of the week than a horse with its head stuck in the air doing as it wishes, its how I have trained my horses for years and always will do, it builds a strong supple horse. There are videos and pictures floating about that I have seen with horses in this position or indeed in a correct competition outline (poll high) with captions of Rollkur underneath, please when spreading the facts make sure people know what is and ISNT Rollkur. I dont believe Carl Hester works his horses in Rollkur but rather that he works them in an outline deemed to be 'overbent' which is totally fine and not Rollkur, I am willing to be corrected on this though


----------



## Marydoll (3 August 2012)

BeesKnees said:



			I'm sorry but biomechanically that is absolute nonsense. If you haul the front end in all you do is put the horse on the forehand. See Phillips Karl' s videos and books for detailed explanations about why this happens. 

If however you wish to bully your horse into ' shut down' submission, and possibly cause hypoxia ( which would arguably result in the same thing) then Rolkur is perfect.

Just spend some time with your chin rammed onto your chest and see how tense you feel across your shoulders and back. How people can argue that such a technique can create lightness, thoroughness across the back and 'sit' through the back end, is beyond me.
		
Click to expand...

Agreed


----------



## tallyho! (3 August 2012)

There is a tremendous amount of difference between remonte and rollkur.

Remonte (LDR) is there to help stretch the muscle. Rollkur is artificial.

All horses are capable of putting their nose on their chests to itch at flies. I see in the field but this is not to be used for extended periods when riding. 

The awareness must continue. Classical will come back.


----------



## _GG_ (3 August 2012)

Wow, I only just signed up and my word what a start, lol. 

Rollkur - hate it.

LDR - A very useful tool if done correctly. 

To get on any horse and ask it to constantly work in a poll high outline is unfair as well though!

You cannot expect a horse not to get tense when held in the same position for long periods. A dressage test is always under 10 minutes long and 10 minutes is not too long to be in a poll high position, but I regularly see people train their horses for 40-60 minutes at home with their head in the same position the whole time. Whilst they may think it looks good or feels good, it is doing nothing to enhance the athletic ability of the horse as holding the same position for long periods causes tension as the muscles become fatigued. 

Much better to warm up long and low, do some flexing, maybe a little correct LDR for short periods as it does help suppleness and lifting of the back muscles when done properly, then some poll high work for a while, then some more flexing and long and low again to cool down. 

This is how I have been trained by a number of very good riders, one of them being Carl Hester many years ago when he was at Gleneagles in Scotland. I was 13 I think then and it has always stuck with me. 

We have to remember when we get on our horses that they are not machines. We can't ride by simply making them do what we want. We should ride asking ourselves how best we can help the horse understand what it is we want them to do. That way, you will find a level of communication that develops a harmonious conversation between horse and rider...not a relationship of force and submission. 

Rollkur will continue to be used as long as the judges award high scores to those that use it. So, instead of focussing on the negatives, focus on the fact that the judges at London 2012 are marking these tests brilliantly. They are marking up for correctness and marking down for horses going behind the vertical, showing tension, poor angles etc. THAT is what will make the Rollkur users change their training methods!

So, that's my first post on these forums over with. Hello everyone


----------



## kerilli (3 August 2012)

_GG_  hi and welcome.
thanks for a very valuable contribution, posts like yours should stop this turning into a hysterical witch-hunt against anyone whose horse is photographed in LDR position, i hope... i dread that result. 
lucky you to be trained by Carl, at such a formative age!


----------



## tallyho! (3 August 2012)

Welcome GG! Welcome to the forums and with a first post like that, long may you stay! Cheers!


----------



## Jesstickle (3 August 2012)

Hi GG *waves* you will stay won't you?

If it helps I think a lot of people understand LDR is useful. Several people have posted the FEI's official stewarding diagrams saying they can tell the difference between LDR, long and low and the dirty R word.



I did notice some weirdo on the FEI page saying a horse being jogged for the judge shouldn't have a flash on as it was cruel. I ignored it but it took all my might not to call them a wally. We're not all completely mad bunny  huggers I swear!


----------



## Vizslak (3 August 2012)

Hi GG welcome to the madhouse


----------



## elaineh (3 August 2012)

WoopsiiD said:



			Charlotte Dujardin 83.663% 
I don't believe this rider has ever been linked to Rollkur.
So why the need?

Hard work and soft hands deserves the Gold.
In dressage there should be no shortcuts at an animal's expense.
The silent partner has been abused for too long and its about time enough of us became his voice and stood up to 'riders/bullies' (choose your own word) and the FEI.
		
Click to expand...

Agree 100%.


----------



## Rosehip (3 August 2012)

I cant remember all names to respond to everyone individually, my appologies. 

Yes, my mare puts herself into rolkur, she uses it to evade all contact and run off, its part of the reason she is retired, as she uses it against me. Her head comes to the vertical, and her tounge goes under the bit, therefore evading contact and rendering rolkur an act against me...not her.

I work with one horse who regularly fiddles with his tounge and the bits and has a blueish tinge to his tounge occasionally - it is easy to get them caught between double bridle bits if they are a fiddler. Be it when on a contact or not.

You absolutely can use hyperflexion as a positive training tool, to be working in the LDR, and then hyperflex momentarily and the drop again into LDR is a very effective way of getting the horses hind legs under him and working over his back. 

I have bred, broken and re-habed various horses and ponies, all are happy, healthy and well trained, dont you dare say that I dont look after or care for my horses. 

The FEI has banned all forms of rolkur, so be it, thats fine, but it is up to them to enforce that ruling, not camera nazi's with clever editing to slur a particular rider. That video *has* been edited, no question in my mind.


----------



## Tilda (3 August 2012)

That is the first time I have ever seen a video of rollkur and it bought tears to my eyes  that poor poor beautiful horse it is heartbreaking the lengths some people will go to absolutely disgusting behaviour!


----------



## Jesstickle (3 August 2012)

Rosehip said:



			The FEI has banned all forms of rolkur, so be it, thats fine, but it is up to them to enforce that ruling, not camera nazi's with clever editing to slur a particular rider. That video *has* been edited, no question in my mind.
		
Click to expand...

Ladies and gentlemen, I give you Godwin's law in action. Argument is over


----------



## kerilli (3 August 2012)

Rosehip said:



			Yes, my mare puts herself into rolkur, she uses it to evade all contact and run off, its part of the reason she is retired, as she uses it against me. Her head comes to the vertical, and her tounge goes under the bit, therefore evading contact and rendering rolkur an act against me...not her.
		
Click to expand...

I really really hope you know, as you are such an expert, that the horse's tongue is SUPPOSED to go under the bit. If it goes over the bit you have a problem...
As I said before, a horse in that position but not being forced is NOT in rollkur.


----------



## galaxy (3 August 2012)

Rosehip said:



			You absolutely can use hyperflexion as a positive training tool, to be working in the LDR, and then hyperflex momentarily and the drop again into LDR is a very effective way of getting the horses hind legs under him and working over his back.
		
Click to expand...

We'll have to agree to disagree on that one!!!

LDR is fine in my eyes, but Rollkur intentionally (not the horse doing it to itself)  is not right and I just cannot see how this could lead to getting the hocks underneath.  Look at all the photos of Rollkur, not one looks an uphill picture, infact the back end looks psoitively blocked!  Therefore how can the hocks be coming under????


----------



## Vizslak (3 August 2012)

well I bow to rosehips clear superior knowledge on training....... her tongue goes under the bit?! Really? Never?! I would love to see some pics of you riding rollkur/hyperflexed/LDR however you are blooming riding, its unclear from your posts.


----------



## tallyho! (3 August 2012)

If rollkur is "by accident" as some are adamant then how come the Bristol Vet school found abnormalities in the parotid glands, trachea and bone structures in the head when they investigated rollkur claims back in 2009? 

Extraneous bone doesn't just grow where it shouldn't in a mater of seconds does it? Oh and, muscles growing where they shouldn't... Do they spring up instantly too?

I don't know. I am not a professional dressage rider so I can't know anything.


----------



## SusannaF (3 August 2012)

Epona TV have an FAQ about the blue tongue footage for the sceptics among us. You can read it here:

http://epona.tv/uk/news/show/artikel/blue-tongue-video-faq/

Some highlights: 




_According to Roly Owers of WHW, hyperflexion on its own can't cause a blue tongue_

That's possibly true. As we have already stated in our editorial Necks, lies and videotapes, rollkur is probably not the main issue. The main issue is the use of excessive and/or relentless pressure from the bit(s) which is necessary to maintain the hyperflexed position for prolonged periods of time.


_I have read this FAQ and I still don't understand. If your camera was off for some of the time you witnessed Kittel's ride and you were filming other riders too, how can there be 120 minutes of footage just of Kittel, as I have read elsewhere on the World Wide Web_


That's because other equestrian journalists and members of the public as well have extrapolated on what they have read on our website or on something they have heard. We were indeed standing by the warm up ring in Odense for two hours. And we did witness that Patrik Kittel was riding for that period, but as stated further down in the FAQ, we were not filming him the entire time. When we switched on the camera, we obviously didn't know for how long the session would go on. So when we saw something else worth documenting, we did just that. Not until Mr. Kittel had finished his ride, did we check the time and discover for how long the training had been going on.


_But you said two hours. You should be able to document this with your footage._


Our material more than justifies our editorial representation of the incident, and only subsequently to the story going global did Patrik Kittel deny having ridden for two hours with his horse in various stages of hyperflexion. During Mr. Kittel's telephone interview, which - contrary to media reports - he was prepared for, he made no attempt to refute this claim. Nor did he do so in response to the emailed questions he had requested, and so far, Mr. Kittel has not asked us to correct any facts of the story as would constitute normal procedure if it was felt that members of the press had misrepresented events.

Someone did try to get the clip on YouTube removed as a violation of privacy, but this person was unsuccessful.
		
Click to expand...

If Scandic was "only momentarily" or "voluntarily" in hyperflexion and this was manipulated by clever editing, then he would have had to be in momentary/voluntary hyperflexion in umpteen different positions and somehow in the same bit of the ring by the same horses to provide continuity. So he really would have been in the warm up ring for HOURS if the total time edited down to four minutes...


----------



## Rosehip (3 August 2012)

kerilli said:



			I really really hope you know, as you are such an expert, that the horse's tongue is SUPPOSED to go under the bit. If it goes over the bit you have a problem...
As I said before, a horse in that position but not being forced is NOT in rollkur.
		
Click to expand...

Again appologys, a slip of the keys. Yes, her tongue goes over the bit. 
If the head is at a vertical, with the chin on the chest and the ears/poll at the highest point, as the horse in the video, then what is it if not rolkur? 
I dont claim to be an expert - in none of my posts have I said that, all I am saying is that in my own experience I find momentary use of hyperflexion a useful tool in training. 
I do not condone constant use of it, just as I dont condone constant use of draw reins, over use of spurs or constant flicking with the whip. 
It might be pertinent to point out that I rarely use a curb, I prefer snaffles if at all possible.


----------



## SusannaF (3 August 2012)

Furthermore:

a) they contacted Kittel before they broadcast the footage and he said he believed he was using hyperflexion according to FEI guidelines (I believe these were clarified/altered after this incident)

b) five independent vets verified that the horse's tongue was blue.

c) 'Anky van Grunsven herself has confirmed to EPONA.tv that she does not in fact know for how long at a time she will hyperflex a horse. "I don't have a clue," she confesses. "Time flies when you're having fun."'


----------



## pookie (3 August 2012)

Rosehip said:



			If the head is at a vertical, with the chin on the chest and the ears/poll at the highest point, as the horse in the video, then what is it if not rolkur?
		
Click to expand...

Not that Wikipedia is the font of all learning, but the article there defines rollkur as:




			Rollkur or hyperflexion of the horse's neck is a practice in equestrianism defined as "flexion of the horse's neck achieved through aggressive force"
		
Click to expand...

If your horse is putting _herself_ into a 'rollkur-like' position with no deliberate action on your part, no "aggressive force" has been used. It's no more rollkur than if she drops her head onto her chest to bite at a fly!


----------



## StrawberryFish (3 August 2012)

SusannaF said:



			"I don't have a clue," she confesses. "Time flies when you're having fun."'
		
Click to expand...

This quote made me so sad, nice to know she's having fun whilst her horse is in pain. I do hope the tone I read the quote in (ie that she enjoys hyperflexing her horses for extended periods...) is entirely innacurate.


----------



## tallyho! (3 August 2012)

Yes, such fun, riding a disconnected horse that can't see where it's going, can't swallow and it's tongue hurts and is covered in its own spit most of the time, whilst it's head has more leather on it than a cow.


----------



## Booboos (3 August 2012)

tallyho! said:



			If rollkur is "by accident" as some are adamant then how come the Bristol Vet school found abnormalities in the parotid glands, trachea and bone structures in the head when they investigated rollkur claims back in 2009? 

Extraneous bone doesn't just grow where it shouldn't in a mater of seconds does it? Oh and, muscles growing where they shouldn't... Do they spring up instantly too?

I don't know. I am not a professional dressage rider so I can't know anything.
		
Click to expand...

Could I please have references for this study? Many thanks


----------



## Rosehip (3 August 2012)

pookie said:



			Not that Wikipedia is the font of all learning, but the article there defines rollkur as:



If your horse is putting _herself_ into a 'rollkur-like' position with no deliberate action on your part, no "aggressive force" has been used. It's no more rollkur than if she drops her head onto her chest to bite at a fly!
		
Click to expand...

So a "rolkur-like" position held in that position, without force, is not considered rolkur?? And how do FEI intend to police that? I would be kicked out of every show I went to with my retired mare, as she puts herself into that position when excited, and holds it. Would it be that I - as the rider - would be prosecuted in some way for riding in rolkur when I am infact not putting pressure on the horse to hold that position?
There are many grey area's.


----------



## Booboos (3 August 2012)

jesstickle said:



			Hi GG *waves* you will stay won't you?

If it helps I think a lot of people understand LDR is useful. Several people have posted the FEI's official stewarding diagrams saying they can tell the difference between LDR, long and low and the dirty R word.



I did notice some weirdo on the FEI page saying a horse being jogged for the judge shouldn't have a flash on as it was cruel. I ignored it but it took all my might not to call them a wally. We're not all completely mad bunny  huggers I swear!
		
Click to expand...

So the argument goes: The evidence of your own eyes, and the feeling that this looks horrible is quite good enough to decide rollkur is abusive, but if someone else feels the same way about a flash he is a weirdo, wally, mad bunny hugger? It seems to me that we either require strong scientific evidence before making any welfare decisions, or we base all of them on how things look and feel to all of us in which case people who find all riding upsetting have an equal claim on having them banned.


----------



## tallyho! (3 August 2012)

Booboos said:



			Could I please have references for this study? Many thanks
		
Click to expand...

Here is one of many. Is your google broke?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zhljcsuudd4&feature=youtube_gdata_player


----------



## tallyho! (3 August 2012)

Actually I feel very strongly about flashes too. Rollkur as cruelty is fact. Not fiction.


----------



## pookie (3 August 2012)

Rosehip said:



			So a "rolkur-like" position held in that position, without force, is not considered rolkur?? And how do FEI intend to police that? I would be kicked out of every show I went to with my retired mare, as she puts herself into that position when excited, and holds it. Would it be that I - as the rider - would be prosecuted in some way for riding in rolkur when I am infact not putting pressure on the horse to hold that position?
There are many grey area's.
		
Click to expand...

Presumably the FEI could police contraventions of a rollkur ban by being able to recognise the difference between a horse being coerced into a position and one adopting it all on its very ownsome. Such things are possible.

I've no idea how long your mare held/holds her chin to her chest when excited, but (whilst this is a very small sample) you might want to read this synopsis of a rollkur study out to her?


----------



## Fidgety (3 August 2012)

Rosehip said:



			If the head is at a vertical, with the chin on the chest and the ears/poll at the highest point, as the horse in the video, then what is it if not rolkur?
		
Click to expand...

It's physically impossible for the face to remain vertical with the chin on the chest.  Whatever you are saying you use, it's not rolkur.


----------



## Rosehip (3 August 2012)

Pookie - thanks for the link...I will explain to Melly that the way she holds her head makes her more afraid and excitable. I dont think she will listen!

Im bowing out, Im outnumbered a hundred fold, so no point trying to explain any further my thoughts or experiences.


----------



## WoopsiiD (3 August 2012)

Hmm seems someone is listening:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...rian-fans-threaten-boycott-2012-Olympics.html


----------



## Rosehip (3 August 2012)

Fidgety said:



			It's physically impossible for the face to remain vertical with the chin on the chest.  Whatever you are saying you use, it's not rolkur.
		
Click to expand...

Behind the vertical then. Does it really matter, I would have thought you would know what i am trying to say, or am I speaking in a foriegn language? I often feel that I am not understood on here, whether I am agreeing or disagreeing with whatever is being posted about.
I dont know why I bother to be honest.


----------



## tallyho! (3 August 2012)

That says january 2010 though...


----------



## Fidgety (3 August 2012)

Rosehip said:



			Behind the vertical then. Does it really matter, I would have thought you would know what i am trying to say, or am I speaking in a foriegn language? I often feel that I am not understood on here, whether I am agreeing or disagreeing with whatever is being posted about.
I dont know why I bother to be honest.
		
Click to expand...

Yes it does matter.  You say 'on the vertical' and then 'behind the vertical and somehow I'm (and others are) supposed to know what it was you want to say.  You're not speaking in a foreign language, but you don't seem to understand what it is your advocating?


----------



## Jesstickle (3 August 2012)

Booboos said:



			So the argument goes: The evidence of your own eyes, and the feeling that this looks horrible is quite good enough to decide rollkur is abusive, but if someone else feels the same way about a flash he is a weirdo, wally, mad bunny hugger? It seems to me that we either require strong scientific evidence before making any welfare decisions, or we base all of them on how things look and feel to all of us in which case people who find all riding upsetting have an equal claim on having them banned.
		
Click to expand...


It's Friday night, I cba to trawl pubmed. If you wait until Monday I will speak to a few vets and do a literature search. I expect I'll turn up completely conflicting studies as it is a new and difficult to assess issue and no consensus will have been reached yet. Especially as there are probably only about 5 decent papers on it I expect. 

Given it's potential to be harmful wouldn't it be better to err on the side of caution and ban it outright until such a time as studies can be effectively completed? Which is effectively what has officially happened already. 

I really don't care if they ban flashes or remove equestrianism all together from the Olympics, they can ban riding and keeping dogs too for all I care. Probably better that they do frankly as I'm sure there are millions of miserable horses out there because they belong to rubbish owners and I don't just mean in the upper echelons either.


----------



## Munchkin (3 August 2012)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zhljcsuudd4&feature=youtube_gdata_player

Good video.


----------



## pookie (3 August 2012)

jesstickle said:



			It's Friday night, I cba to trawl pubmed...
		
Click to expand...

I've already mooched pubmed and you're right about the conflicting (and tiny number!) of studies reported. However, I found this an interesting commentary about some of the studies often referred to


----------



## WoopsiiD (3 August 2012)

Ah so it does...oops
Can't find the video on youtube that was excellent at describing rollkur. Its been taken down 
It wasn't a total propoganda piece either it was quite a balanced piece.


----------



## joeanne (3 August 2012)

jesstickle said:



			Given it's potential to be harmful wouldn't it be better to err on the side of caution and ban it outright until such a time as studies can be effectively completed? Which is effectively what has officially happened already. 

.
		
Click to expand...

*Passes Jess "Post of the evening award"*
Common sense....plain and simple!


----------



## millimoo (3 August 2012)

This should not be a thread directly aimed at Patrik Kittel, and should not become a witch hunt.
The whole of the Dutch team are at it, with Ankys husband / team trainer being at the centre if it all.
I think Rollkur is gross abuse, and the extended periods it is used are just dreadful.
If Valegros new home is true, then god help him as the new riders trainer is Anky..... I just pray he's established enough that they have to stick with the Charlotte/Carl methods - and you never know,'they might start applying it to their own (how I wish)


----------



## Jesstickle (3 August 2012)

I can find this which alludes to some of the recent studies that have been carried out

http://vip.vetsci.usyd.edu.au/contentUpload/content_2872/SusanDwyer.pdf

I  haven't looked up the individual studies as yet to confirm whether the criticisms of methodology etc are reliable.

As I suspected it has mixed reviews. I am also curious as to why all the main authors have decidedly Dutch sounding names so will be interested to see how impartial they are likely to be. If you catch my drift


----------



## The mad TB (3 August 2012)

There is only one point on that video where it jumps, the restbos not edited apart from slo-mo  

I am astounded by the horse, shows just how much they do for us! if someone did that to Conn they would be on the floor in seconds :L


----------



## _GG_ (3 August 2012)

No, this shouldn't only be directed at Kittel. He is just the rider in the picture that sparked this debate, so naturally his name is at the forefront.

I will be completely honest here, I won't get into an argument about the effects of Rollkur because I do not know enough about it and the studies that have been published are sparse and young. We do not yet have enough research to be able to formulate opinions on how it affects a horses long term physiology.

What I will do however is comment on how I believe it affects a horse in training.

I will also put my money where my mouth is, so to speak. So...take a look at my video at the bottom if you want. I am not the best rider, I don't know everything, but I will always form my own opinions based on what I know first hand...not what I hear or am led to believe. 

I often have people ask how you get a horse to work on the bit without using draw reins or pulling its head in with your hands. The answer is, you establish a rhythm, balanced, get the horse supple and then encourage contact. A horse that is on the bit cannot be put there with the hand...if they are put there by hand, they will not be in self carriage, therefore, not truly on the bit. They are simply in a false frame. 

In the video, I am working my mare who hurdled for 5 years and is at an early stage in retraining at the age of ten. She, as many ex racers do, gets tense in the neck and jaw, so relaxation is vital. You will see her come above the vertical, and all I do is half halt to get her attention back. No pulling, just blocking with the leg on. 
You will also see her come behind the vertical as she stretches out, but you will see my hands allow this as I want her to stretch and relax. 
Finally, in parts, you will see her come into self carriage, where she is poll high, maintaining rhythm and relaxed and because she is not fit enough or strong enough to hold self carriage for very long, when she wants to stretch, I allow her to stretch. 

I am posting this to show that a horse behind the vertical does no always mean a horse that is being ridden with heavy hands. You will see when I am close to the camera that my fingers are barely even curled around the reins.

When I have ridden horses that are trained with heavy hands or excessive use of training aids, I find them sometimes unable to balance by themselves very well, preferring to lean on the hand. They can be very fragile in the contact and hypersensitive to the aids. 


This is why I dislike Rollkur. Because I believe through experience that it hurts horses...real, physical pain in their mouths from the actions of the bit(s). Even a snaffle can hurt a horse with a nasty pair of hands. 

And yes...my mare does have a flash on, you will notice that it is loose enough to allow her to chew the bit and open her mouth...she no longer needs it, but she did at this time as she would often sneeze and get her tongue over the bit.

So...arguments based on the long term physiological effects are still very premature at this stage of research...but the fact remains, it is not harmonious riding to forcibly pull your horses head in. 

As said, I am just an ordinary rider striving to always be better...always learning and hopefully improving, but also willing to stand up and say force is wrong and not at all necessary.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4lDMUx9kJlU


----------



## SusannaF (4 August 2012)

WoopsiiD said:



			Hmm seems someone is listening:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...rian-fans-threaten-boycott-2012-Olympics.html

Click to expand...

From January 2010. Hope they pick it up again...

Liz Jones is at the DM  I think that's the reason they pick up on so many horse cruelty stories.


----------



## Booboos (4 August 2012)

tallyho: my "google is not broke" but I think my ability to explain my self is broken. I would be grateful for references to scientific studies in peer reviewed journals, not random youtube videos, otherwise we might all confirm the existence of the tree octapus (google that study if you don't know it, it's very interesting).

Pookie: thanks for the maze study link, I have come accross that one. In my opinion it is a terribly poorly designed study, e.g. small sample, no double blind conditions, horses could easily and subconsciously been influenced by rider, result explicable by a desire to avoid work and not rollkur and so on.

jesstickle: thank you for the links but I am bit confused because they prove the opposite of the claims of this thread, i.e.
1. van Breda & van O-O: workload higher in rollkur, but stressloads not increased
2. van Breda: rollkur horses encountered LESS stress than recreational horses, so rollkur appears to be BETTER
3. van Weeren: head high position more harmful (don't see anyone calling for a ban on RCs, crappy recreational riders like yours truly, the thousands struggling with W&T tests like yours truly, etc.)
All the summary does is call for further studies to establish the facts which I have nothing against.

Which brings us to "if rollkur has the potential to be harmful err on the side of caution". This I completely disagree with. Since there is no evidence that it is harmful, merely claims that it might be, there is no justification for limiting people's freedom to do with their horses as they will. This is a welfare issue, but if no welfare concerns have been shown there are no grounds for action. Otherwise people who claim that the whole of riding has the same potential to be harmful would be equally entitled to prevent all of us riding on the exact same grounds.

We should be very wary of preventing other people from doing something simply because we don't like it. A restriction in liberty, in any sphere, should always be based on hard facts.


----------



## skydy (4 August 2012)

millimoo said:



			This should not be a thread directly aimed at Patrik Kittel, and should not become a witch hunt.
The whole of the Dutch team are at it, with Ankys husband / team trainer being at the centre if it all.
I think Rollkur is gross abuse, and the extended periods it is used are just dreadful.
If Valegros new home is true, then god help him as the new riders trainer is Anky..... I just pray he's established enough that they have to stick with the Charlotte/Carl methods - and you never know,'they might start applying it to their own (how I wish)
		
Click to expand...

 Valegro's new home will be..where? 
 I am sorry that he is being sold to outside interests. I had hoped you would be able to keep him in the UK.
 I am hoping for your team to win (nothing against my team, just think yours is smashing and
very deserving). Best of luck!

About the rollkur issue, the problem I have with the photo of PK, is his bulging left bicept muscle. Looks like a lot of force there..


----------



## touchstone (4 August 2012)

An article that has excellent info on rollkur and why it is at best unnecessary here:- http://www.sustainabledressage.net/rollkur/index.php

http://www.sustainabledressage.net/rollkur/why_not.php


----------



## Stilldreamin' (4 August 2012)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/olympics/...video/p00w305c

Adelinde Cornelissen makes her entrance at 4.16.39.

Horse is hyperflexed from get go.


----------



## tallyho! (4 August 2012)

No no, you're right millimoo, it should not be directed at PK solely but the title of the the thread and the OP was about the TIME of his test and we all wanted to see if there was a reaction. There were none... unsportsmanlike or whatever the excuse was  

Then after that we decided to talk about rollkur in general, PK included.

However, the rollkur debate can be extended infinitely to include the people and the equipment.

draw reins, pessoa, crank noseband, flashes (yes! flashes!) and why stop there, FEI dressage rules about horses opening mouths - points are deducted which is why crank and flashes were originally invented.

You see the effect of this rippling through even local level comps where I see ponies jaws strapped together attached to straight, unyielding hands accompanied with evident "sponging/sawing" with the back disconnected and the hindquarters trailing off into the sunset. The more honest of the ponies get the points and rider gets awarded. Perfect.

There seems that everything natural about the beauty of horses is taken away by points collection system dictated by the FEI! The very body that outwardly wants to promote the welfare of horses yet gets rid of it's welfare team!!! LOL! Genius.

It has to come from the top as someone said earlier but putting pressure from the bottom isn't a bad idea overall.

A victory for horses is when AKG, PK & the Swedish Rollkur Mafia don't get a medal. Natural movements don't score points which leaves out a hell of a lot of people who refuse to conform to such cruel practice.


----------



## Stilldreamin' (4 August 2012)

Some shots:

http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.4335149866245.2176732.1512297978&type=3&l=fcb43e0706


----------



## Jesstickle (4 August 2012)

Booboos said:



			tallyho: my "google is not broke" but I think my ability to explain my self is broken. I would be grateful for references to scientific studies in peer reviewed journals, not random youtube videos, otherwise we might all confirm the existence of the tree octapus (google that study if you don't know it, it's very interesting).

Pookie: thanks for the maze study link, I have come accross that one. In my opinion it is a terribly poorly designed study, e.g. small sample, no double blind conditions, horses could easily and subconsciously been influenced by rider, result explicable by a desire to avoid work and not rollkur and so on.

jesstickle: thank you for the links but I am bit confused because they prove the opposite of the claims of this thread, i.e.
1. van Breda & van O-O: workload higher in rollkur, but stressloads not increased
2. van Breda: rollkur horses encountered LESS stress than recreational horses, so rollkur appears to be BETTER
3. van Weeren: head high position more harmful (don't see anyone calling for a ban on RCs, crappy recreational riders like yours truly, the thousands struggling with W&T tests like yours truly, etc.)
All the summary does is call for further studies to establish the facts which I have nothing against.

Which brings us to "if rollkur has the potential to be harmful err on the side of caution". This I completely disagree with. Since there is no evidence that it is harmful, merely claims that it might be, there is no justification for limiting people's freedom to do with their horses as they will. This is a welfare issue, but if no welfare concerns have been shown there are no grounds for action. Otherwise people who claim that the whole of riding has the same potential to be harmful would be equally entitled to prevent all of us riding on the exact same grounds.

We should be very wary of preventing other people from doing something simply because we don't like it. A restriction in liberty, in any sphere, should always be based on hard facts.
		
Click to expand...

I assume you read the studies and recognise all the flaws with the methodology? I also assume you went and did further reading, did you read the study this http://www.horsetalk.co.nz/news/2009/01/107.shtml talks about. It definitely exists as I had it open last night. 

There clearly isn't enough evidence to decide in either direction at the present time. I personally would always rather plan for the worst case scenario but hey. If you think people's liberty to train their horse however the hell they want is more important than welfare go ahead.

I assume you thought people rapping their showjumpers was fine until there was scientific proof  a welfare issue existed. And you're fine with the travelling community racing their three year olds up and down the road because there is no peer reviewed evidence they shouldn't? And that using a bearing rein so tight it stopped a horse breathing in Victorian times was ok because there was no scientific evidence to the contrary. I haven't seen much published literature on the use of weighted stacks in the TWH for big lick classes. Perhaps there isn't an issue there after all.  Silly me for being concerned. 

As GG has pointed out, perhaps rollkur isn't in itself detrimental but at what point did it become acceptable to be so rough, to see the horse as some kind of cash cow, to force it's head into any kind of position? If that is what equestrianism is becoming then I do think it should be banned. All of it.


----------



## tallyho! (4 August 2012)

Ugly indeed! 

Ugly riding. Ugly riders. Ugly sport.

I am almost ashamed to say to people I do dressage. THAT there in those videos is not what I do.


----------



## tallyho! (4 August 2012)

Bravo jesstickle!!!!


----------



## tallyho! (4 August 2012)

I recently discovered horsemanpro... he made me laugh with his honest no-bull approach. I started to quite like his views... 

http://horsemanpro.com/articles2/rollkur.htm


----------



## Booboos (4 August 2012)

jesstickle said:



			I assume you read the studies and recognise all the flaws with the methodology? I also assume you went and did further reading, did you read the study this http://www.horsetalk.co.nz/news/2009/01/107.shtml talks about. It definitely exists as I had it open last night. 

There clearly isn't enough evidence to decide in either direction at the present time. I personally would always rather plan for the worst case scenario but hey. If you think people's liberty to train their horse however the hell they want is more important than welfare go ahead.

I assume you thought people rapping their showjumpers was fine until there was scientific proof  a welfare issue existed. And you're fine with the travelling community racing their three year olds up and down the road because there is no peer reviewed evidence they shouldn't? And that using a bearing rein so tight it stopped a horse breathing in Victorian times was ok because there was no scientific evidence to the contrary. I haven't seen much published literature on the use of weighted stacks in the TWH for big lick classes. Perhaps there isn't an issue there after all.  Silly me for being concerned. 

As GG has pointed out, perhaps rollkur isn't in itself detrimental but at what point did it become acceptable to be so rough, to see the horse as some kind of cash cow, to force it's head into any kind of position? If that is what equestrianism is becoming then I do think it should be banned. All of it.
		
Click to expand...

I am sorry but I am totally confused. Someone suggested there were studies showing rollkur was a welfare issue, I asked for a link, you happened to mention these studies so I assumed this was in response to my request. The studies show that rollkur is not a problem so they do not establish a welfare issue, hence my perplexion. Now I will completely agree with you that these studies were also methodologically flawed, but all that shows is that there is no evidence either way.

Yes I will stick to my assertion that you cannot ban a practice without evidence that it causes harm. If we did this, all riding would be banned as there are people who object to it. This is not welfare vs liberty, this unsubstantiated claims and mild hysteria vs liberty.

Yes I do think that if you want to make rapping or trotting 3 year olds on the road illegal you need to prove that they are harmful. Similar if you want to ban racing, the use of bits, the use of treed saddles, etc. I am not familiar with the bearing rein but if a rein stopped the horses from breathing it should be fairly quick and simple to establish this scientifically so, yes still I am not concerned about my requirement.

OK so now rollkur is not detrimental to welfare. What is the next argument? That it is rough and views the horse as a cash cow? Horses are very much commodities for a lot of people, this needn't in any way be contrary to horse welfare as such. Vets, farriers, feed merchants, professional riders, dealers, clothes companies, and many, many others make money out of horses professionally as do many amateurs who may happen to sell a horse for a profit. Is it rough? Well, how long is a piece of string? Almost any training technique can be rough in the wrong hands. It's no more or less rough than other training techniques, e.g. see the photos of Dr H riding and tell me that doesn't look rough!


----------



## Jesstickle (4 August 2012)

Booboos said:



			I am sorry but I am totally confused. Someone suggested there were studies showing rollkur was a welfare issue, I asked for a link, you happened to mention these studies so I assumed this was in response to my request. The studies show that rollkur is not a problem so they do not establish a welfare issue, hence my perplexion. Now I will completely agree with you that these studies were also methodologically flawed, but all that shows is that there is no evidence either way.

Yes I will stick to my assertion that you cannot ban a practice without evidence that it causes harm. If we did this, all riding would be banned as there are people who object to it. This is not welfare vs liberty, this unsubstantiated claims and mild hysteria vs liberty.

Yes I do think that if you want to make rapping or trotting 3 year olds on the road illegal you need to prove that they are harmful. Similar if you want to ban racing, the use of bits, the use of treed saddles, etc. I am not familiar with the bearing rein but if a rein stopped the horses from breathing it should be fairly quick and simple to establish this scientifically so, yes still I am not concerned about my requirement.

OK so now rollkur is not detrimental to welfare. What is the next argument? That it is rough and views the horse as a cash cow? Horses are very much commodities for a lot of people, this needn't in any way be contrary to horse welfare as such. Vets, farriers, feed merchants, professional riders, dealers, clothes companies, and many, many others make money out of horses professionally as do many amateurs who may happen to sell a horse for a profit. Is it rough? Well, how long is a piece of string? Almost any training technique can be rough in the wrong hands. It's no more or less rough than other training techniques, e.g. see the photos of Dr H riding and tell me that doesn't look rough!
		
Click to expand...

I was just trying to be helpful really as clearly your google was broken (despite your assertions it wasn't) and you couldn't find them yourself. I said any literature was likely to be flawed, scarce and wouldn't be conclusive. That's exactly what it is. Have you read the study which does show it as a problem yet (also deeply flawed FWIW). I am, as previously mentioned, interested to see who funded the studies also. I'd be surprised that it is a coincidence that the two which find no problem are Dutch. Now that may be unfair of me and if I'm wrong I will, of course, apologise.

I happen to find those pictures really rather distressing. I wouldn't ever do it to my horse. I am allowed my own opinion as everyone else in the world is. The fact that, as yet, there is really no decent literature on it is a shame. Until there is all I can do is use my feeling and gut instinct to base my opinion on. If we all waited to act until such a time as there was a consensus opinion for everything I think the world would be a poorer place.

I am all for being scientific about things ( I am, I'm sure you remember, a scientist) but I stand by my statement that with something which is likely to be harmful or even something which has the possibility to be harmful, it would be better to err on the side of caution. Especially as it is unlikely there will ever be proper evidence as there is no funding for this and the studies, by their very nature, are hard to conduct. 

I really don't like the use of 'scientific rigour' to allow abuse. In any walk of life, not just horses. Lots of things haven't been proved one way or another, that is no excuse to do something inhumane and then plead ignorance due to lack of evidence. I think that actually gives a bad name to science.  I don't think there is much evidence that smacking your child soundly over the backside three times a day for no reason does lasting harm. But I wouldn't excuse someone from doing it on the grounds there is no scientific evidence as yet. I could make an absolutely huge list of examples along these lines. 

Obviously you and I have fundamentally different opinions on civil liberty and we aren't going to reconcile them so I suggest we stop at this point.


----------



## Booboos (4 August 2012)

jesstickle said:



			I was just trying to be helpful really as clearly your google was broken (despite your assertions it wasn't) and you couldn't find them yourself. I said any literature was likely to be flawed, scarce and wouldn't be conclusive. That's exactly what it is. Have you read the study which does show it as a problem yet (also deeply flawed FWIW). I am, as previously mentioned, interested to see who funded the studies also. I'd be surprised that it is a coincidence that the two which find no problem are Dutch. Now that may be unfair of me and if I'm wrong I will, of course, apologise.

I happen to find those pictures really rather distressing. I wouldn't ever do it to my horse. I am allowed my own opinion as everyone else in the world is. The fact that, as yet, there is really no decent literature on it is a shame. Until there is all I can do is use my feeling and gut instinct to base my opinion on. If we all waited to act until such a time as there was a consensus opinion for everything I think the world would be a poorer place.

I am all for being scientific about things ( I am, I'm sure you remember, a scientist) but I stand by my statement that with something which is likely to be harmful or even something which has the possibility to be harmful, it would be better to err on the side of caution. Especially as it is unlikely there will ever be proper evidence as there is no funding for this and the studies, by their very nature, are hard to conduct. 

I really don't like the use of 'scientific rigour' to allow abuse. In any walk of life, not just horses. Lots of things haven't been proved one way or another, that is no excuse to do something inhumane and then plead ignorance due to lack of evidence. I think that actually gives a bad name to science.  I don't think there is much evidence that smacking your child soundly over the backside three times a day for no reason does lasting harm. But I wouldn't excuse someone from doing it on the grounds there is no scientific evidence as yet. I could make an absolutely huge list of examples along these lines. 

Obviously you and I have fundamentally different opinions on civil liberty and we aren't going to reconcile them so I suggest we stop at this point.
		
Click to expand...

If people claim there is good evidence against something the onus is on them to provide it, as well as it being just polite to do so. Both Google and Google Scholar, which is what I use when I need to back up my claims, work fine on my computer.

Of course you are entitled to your opinion, I never said you were not. You are entitled to believe that rollkur is wrong, although your belief does not make it so. You are still entitled to believe so, as much as Patrick Kittell is entitled to believe it's not wrong (his belief does not make it so either). What you are not entitled to is to force your opinion on others by stoping them from doing what they want. In order to justify forcing your opinions on others you need evidence that what they are doing is harmful.

If there is no evidence of abuse something cannot be simply labelled abuse. Some people find riding itself distressing and strongly feel that it is harmful to horses, but their mere feelings do not prove that it is indeed abusive.

I perfectly happy to end this particular exhange


----------



## Marydoll (4 August 2012)

Booboos said:





If people claim there is good evidence against something the onus is on them to provide it, as well as it being just polite to do so. Both Google and Google Scholar, which is what I use when I need to back up my claims, work fine on my computer.

Of course you are entitled to your opinion, I never said you were not. You are entitled to believe that rollkur is wrong, although your belief does not make it so. You are still entitled to believe so, as much as Patrick Kittell is entitled to believe it's not wrong (his belief does not make it so either). What you are not entitled to is to force your opinion on others by stoping them from doing what they want. In order to justify forcing your opinions on others you need evidence that what they are doing is harmful.

If there is no evidence of abuse something cannot be simply labelled abuse. Some people find riding itself distressing and strongly feel that it is harmful to horses, but their mere feelings do not prove that it is indeed abusive.

I perfectly happy to end this particular exhange  

Click to expand...

Id rather not wait until some scholar tells me something is wrong, before i act and complain on behalf of the horse,i can see it with my own eyes, the look of despair in some of the horses eyes while in rollkur is heartbreaking, as for it being a welfare issue, when the oxygen is cut of to a horses tongue to the extent it is blue, that is a welfare issue, it causes pain and can cause damage if ongoing, i dont need any scientific article to tell me that, ive had the pain of pins and needles when circulation has been cut off, i know it can cause tissue damage, rollkur is wrong and it puts immense stress on the horse physically and mentally


----------



## Fidgety (4 August 2012)

marydoll said:



			Id rather not wait until some scholar tells me something is wrong, before i act and complain on behalf of the horse,i can see it with my own eyes, the look of despair in some of the horses eyes while in rollkur is heartbreaking
		
Click to expand...

Quite.  The eyes say what scientific studies have yet to prove (or disprove).  Those are not the eyes of happy horses who are comfortable.     Any rider who is happy to ride a horse that is expressing himself through his eyes like that should not be allowed within a mile of a horse.


----------



## Munchkin (4 August 2012)

Booboos said:



			Yes I will stick to my assertion that you cannot ban a practice without evidence that it causes harm.
		
Click to expand...

But it is already banned under FEI rules. Whether you're stupid enough to ride your horse in extreme hyperflexion or not, these riders are breaking the rules and they are not being pulled up (excuse the pun) on it at an Olympic Games.


----------



## Natch (4 August 2012)

marydoll said:



			Id rather not wait until some scholar tells me something is wrong, before i act and complain on behalf of the horse,i can see it with my own eyes, the look of despair in some of the horses eyes while in rollkur is heartbreaking, as for it being a welfare issue, when the oxygen is cut of to a horses tongue to the extent it is blue, that is a welfare issue, it causes pain and can cause damage if ongoing, i dont need any scientific article to tell me that, ive had the pain of pins and needles when circulation has been cut off, i know it can cause tissue damage, rollkur is wrong and it puts immense stress on the horse physically and mentally
		
Click to expand...

Well said.

For me, what we know of biomechanics can be logically applied to see both the benefits and the drawbacks of rollkur. The drawbacks are unacceptable to me.

The straining of the horses' mouths trying to open against the bit is what I find most heartbreaking about the photos I see of Rollkur. many also have their mouths strapped shut.

I am sad that dressage, which should be about showcasing a beautiful harmonious partnership, is becoming anything but that.


----------



## SusannaF (4 August 2012)

Not to mention the fact that if you are hauling on your horse's mouth as standard, what happens when you actually need contact (ie if it takes off)?


----------



## martlin (4 August 2012)

Booboos said:



			Yes I do think that if you want to make rapping or trotting 3 year olds on the road illegal you need to prove that they are harmful. Similar if you want to ban racing, the use of bits, the use of treed saddles, etc. I am not familiar with the bearing rein but if a rein stopped the horses from breathing it should be fairly quick and simple to establish this scientifically so, yes still I am not concerned about my requirement.
		
Click to expand...

Rapping is a banned practice, both in training and at competitions, a few names got caught out and punished, I don't think you need too many scientific studies to prove that smacking a horse with a hard object on the legs will hurt it.
Just thought I would point out.


----------



## Natch (4 August 2012)

SusannaF said:



			Not to mention the fact that if you are hauling on your horse's mouth as standard, what happens when you actually need contact (ie if it takes off)?
		
Click to expand...

It takes off in rollkur


----------



## SusannaF (4 August 2012)

Naturally said:



			It takes off in rollkur 

Click to expand...

Le voila! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yEsjPgJrg1Q


----------



## perfect11s (4 August 2012)

Booboos said:





.

I perfectly happy to end this particular exhange  

Click to expand...

 I would !!! you are just digging a big hole for yourself Yes I know its fun to play devils advocate sometimes 
but when the welfare  of horses is involved  its not big or clever to try and sow seeds of doubt , rolkur  is abuse and even to a mong like me  makes a horse look ****ing horrible and dejected..  the poll should  be the highest point not the middle of its neck ...


----------



## Booboos (4 August 2012)

perfect11s said:



			I would !!! you are just digging a big hole for yourself Yes I know its fun to play devils advocate sometimes 
but when the welfare  of horses is involved  its not big or clever to try and sow seeds of doubt , rolkur  is abuse and even to a mong like me  makes a horse look ****ing horrible and dejected..  the poll should  be the highest point not the middle of its neck ...
		
Click to expand...

The passage you quoted was in direct response to jesstickle's request to end that particular line of discussion which I am happy to honour.

I am not playing devil's advocate nor do I need to big myself up. I am responding to a public thread on a public forum with a view which you don't agree with. 

I find it difficult to get a grip on your position as most of it is spend disparaging me, but let me say something about the claim that the poll should be the highest point. I don't actually agree with this. In fact I think that if you kep the poll the highest point at all times, all training, all hacking and all other activities, you would risk injury to the horse. Horses need to work in a variety of outlines, for example when warming up long and low (with the poll quite low) is a very sensible idea for most horses.

At the same time I don't see all rollkur horses failing to have the poll as the highest point in competition (in advanced competition where this is appropriate). For example, Parcival and Painted Black did lovely tests in the Olympics while the Portuguese horse (which we have no reason to think has ever been rollkured) did not have the poll at the highest point for a lot of its test.


----------



## Jesstickle (4 August 2012)

Booboos said:





If people claim there is good evidence against something the onus is on them to provide it, as well as it being just polite to do so.
		
Click to expand...

I didn't say there was though in fairness. For some reason me trying to be helpful and do a lit search for you has attracted your scorn. Shan't bother next time 

I care far more on the grounds it is a direct contravention of the rules!  FEI outlaw the use of force to achieve rollkur and that is what I see in those pictures. Meh.

I don't want a fight. I don't care enough to fall out over it!


----------



## micramadam (4 August 2012)

Sorry to butt in guys but despite what I said before I felt I had to say that not all Dutch riders practise this abuse (Rollkur). 

I'm not as eloquent as some of you and my English is bit rusty (been out of the country too long ) but I'll try and elaborate.

There are a lot of Dutch riders (including some of those at the top) who IMHO don't deserve to have horses but unfortunately these are the ones who score the points in dressage. The school of thought about Rollkur is ultimately passed down the line from these 'icons' and is seen by a lot of Dutch dressage riders/instructors as normal practise even if they won't admit that they practise it. The horses are abused during the warm up and then go on to perform a high scoring test.
One of these days I will film the warm up area at a competiton so you can see what we have to endure and rest assured there will be no editing. (Technophobe!)

On a brighter note, there is in fact a rebellion starting where the more enlightend riders are moving toward a more classical style of dressage. 
We changed my daughter's instructor because we didn't agree with her methods. The least said the better! 
We now travel 70Km to an instructor who advertises herself as teaching Harmonius Dressage. She believes that to get the best out of a combination there has to be harmony between horse and rider. I wholeheartedly agree and have seen massive improvements. They (my daughter and her horse) still have a way to go but with time they will get there. 
This instructor has a waiting list for lessons as her methods are now beginning to show results in and out of the dressage ring. 

A lot of people wouldn't have taken the time we are prepared to take to get things right but we know that the hard work and time put in now will pay dividends in the future. We seem to be in the minority and most people want instant results. Seems to be a common problem these days in all areas of life these days.


----------



## Stilldreamin' (4 August 2012)

micramadam said:



			Sorry to butt in guys but despite what I said before I felt I had to say that not all Dutch riders practise this abuse (Rollkur). 

I'm not as eloquent as some of you and my English is bit rusty (been out of the country too long ) but I'll try and elaborate.

There are a lot of Dutch riders (including some of those at the top) who IMHO don't deserve to have horses but unfortunately these are the ones who score the points in dressage. The school of thought about Rollkur is ultimately passed down the line from these 'icons' and is seen by a lot of Dutch dressage riders/instructors as normal practise even if they won't admit that they practise it. The horses are abused during the warm up and then go on to perform a high scoring test.
One of these days I will film the warm up area at a competiton so you can see what we have to endure and rest assured there will be no editing. (Technophobe!)

On a brighter note, there is in fact a rebellion starting where the more enlightend riders are moving toward a more classical style of dressage. 
We changed my daughter's instructor because we didn't agree with her methods. The least said the better! 
We now travel 70Km to an instructor who advertises herself as teaching Harmonius Dressage. She believes that to get the best out of a combination there has to be harmony between horse and rider. I wholeheartedly agree and have seen massive improvements. They (my daughter and her horse) still have a way to go but with time they will get there. 
This instructor has a waiting list for lessons as her methods are now beginning to show results in and out of the dressage ring. 

A lot of people wouldn't have taken the time we are prepared to take to get things right but we know that the hard work and time put in now will pay dividends in the future. We seem to be in the minority and most people want instant results. Seems to be a common problem these days in all areas of life these days.
		
Click to expand...

Very true and glad to hear this.


----------



## Burnttoast (4 August 2012)

micramadam said:



			Sorry to butt in guys but despite what I said before I felt I had to say that not all Dutch riders practise this abuse (Rollkur). 

I'm not as eloquent as some of you and my English is bit rusty (been out of the country too long ) but I'll try and elaborate.

There are a lot of Dutch riders (including some of those at the top) who IMHO don't deserve to have horses but unfortunately these are the ones who score the points in dressage. The school of thought about Rollkur is ultimately passed down the line from these 'icons' and is seen by a lot of Dutch dressage riders/instructors as normal practise even if they won't admit that they practise it. The horses are abused during the warm up and then go on to perform a high scoring test.
One of these days I will film the warm up area at a competiton so you can see what we have to endure and rest assured there will be no editing. (Technophobe!)

On a brighter note, there is in fact a rebellion starting where the more enlightend riders are moving toward a more classical style of dressage. 
We changed my daughter's instructor because we didn't agree with her methods. The least said the better! 
We now travel 70Km to an instructor who advertises herself as teaching Harmonius Dressage. She believes that to get the best out of a combination there has to be harmony between horse and rider. I wholeheartedly agree and have seen massive improvements. They (my daughter and her horse) still have a way to go but with time they will get there. 
This instructor has a waiting list for lessons as her methods are now beginning to show results in and out of the dressage ring. 

A lot of people wouldn't have taken the time we are prepared to take to get things right but we know that the hard work and time put in now will pay dividends in the future. We seem to be in the minority and most people want instant results. Seems to be a common problem these days in all areas of life these days.
		
Click to expand...


What a great post. I'd wish your daughter good luck with her progress but it doesn't sound like she'll need it!


----------



## Pinkatc (4 August 2012)

SusannaF said:



			Le voila! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yEsjPgJrg1Q 

Click to expand...

Is it wrong I laughed at that?


----------



## micramadam (4 August 2012)

Burnttoast- she posts her updates on CR quite often. Look for 'Four Seasons'.


----------



## Burnttoast (4 August 2012)

I've seen her posts - thanks for making this connection for me!  Looking forward to seeing her again, then.


----------



## Jesstickle (4 August 2012)

SusannaF said:



			Le voila! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yEsjPgJrg1Q 

Click to expand...

tehe. That's a good one. Straight out of the rodeo! To be fair to the woman she sat that pretty well.  He was really going for it!


----------



## tallyho! (4 August 2012)

Pinkatc, I was pleased to see horse got his own back. But it only means he will be strapped down and demeaned even more.


----------



## Jesstickle (4 August 2012)

I don't have a Wiley log in so can only read the abstract for this and it's a pretty old study but possibly relevant

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.2042-3306.1995.tb04883.x/abstract


----------



## Mondy (4 August 2012)

jesstickle said:



			tehe. That's a good one. Straight out of the rodeo! To be fair to the woman she sat that pretty well.  He was really going for it!
		
Click to expand...


To me, the reaction of Nelson in that video indicates neurological pain.


----------



## Mondy (4 August 2012)

Has the study by the Dutch and Danish which showed that rollkur - AND the euphemistically named LDR - increases stress levels in horses not been published in England?

Surely, the Rollkur-pro H&H must have mentioned it?


----------



## tallyho! (4 August 2012)

Jess, you really do not need to dig up stuff about rollkur. It's there, we know what it is when we see it. If people need and want scholarly articles to prove its wrong, there is something not quite right. Why should you take the trouble to find it for them dear? I cannot believe some people want evidence! Some things do not need a clinical paper. This is one such thing. Sadly. 

Blame the judges I say!


----------



## Jesstickle (4 August 2012)

I had to buy this paper but it's written by the NEH and is pretty decent. It isn't about rollkur specifically but is extremely relevant. I would recommend a read  I would post the salient points but that would be illegal!

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.2042-3292.2010.00171.x/full


----------



## Jesstickle (4 August 2012)

tallyho! said:



			Jess, you really do not need to dig up stuff about rollkur. It's there, we know what it is when we see it. If people need and want scholarly articles to prove its wrong, there is something not quite right. Why should you take the trouble to find it for them dear? I cannot believe some people want evidence! Some things do not need a clinical paper. This is one such thing. Sadly. 

Blame the judges I say!
		
Click to expand...

I don't mind. It's kind of my job ( I mean I do it for a job so I find it easy) and if people want papers I sort of understand. The last one I just found is a doozy. I am going to risk this and probably get banned but here are some excerpts 

Case 1
A 6-year-old eventing mare was referred for overground endoscopy (Franklin et al. 2008) with a history of abnormal respiratory noise during the cross country phase. The noise was particularly obvious when the rider slowed the horse on the approach to a fence and the horse adopted a more flexed head and neck position. A resting endoscopic examination revealed no abnormalities. The overground endoscopy was performed during 3 bouts of exercise on an all weather gallop. The peak speed attained during the exercise test was 22 mph which is slightly faster than the average speed required for novice eventing (520 m/min &#8776; 19 mph). During the exercise test the rider was instructed to vary the horse's outline from flexed to extended head positions. During the periods of head and neck flexion marked palatal instability leading to dorsal displacement of the soft palate was observed, but when the horse was ridden in a more extended head and neck position, palatal function appeared relatively normal

A 6-year-old showjumper was referred for overground endoscopy with a history of inspiratory noise during exercise. The horse was currently competing successfully and performance was not thought to be affected at present. Overground endoscopy was performed in a large arena and the rider was instructed to exercise the horse as normal. During exercise no abnormal respiratory noise was audible when the horse was ridden with an extended or mildly flexed head and neck position. In addition, no abnormalities were observed endoscopically. However, when ridden with a greater degree of head and neck flexion, the reported inspiratory noise became evident. This corresponded with dynamic bilateral arytenoid and vocal fold collapse 

Several studies have suggested that head and neck flexion can induce or exacerbate dynamic URT collapse (Davidson et al. 2002; Strand et al. 2004, 2009; Franklin et al. 2006; Allen et al. 2007; Strand 2009). Cases 1 and 2 describe 2 different dynamic upper respiratory tract conditions in sport horses only present when the horse exercised with a flexed head and neck position. Upper respiratory tract obstructions as a result of head and neck flexion are principally a problem in sport horses in the UK, in contrast to racehorses which exercise with the head and neck extended

Head and neck flexion has been shown to affect upper airway flow mechanics during exercise, specifically resulting in increased inspiratory impedance and decreased inspiratory flows (Petsche et al. 1995). As this obstruction occurred on inspiration and not expiration the authors proposed that this was unlikely to occur solely because of the acute angle in the airflow pathway and was more likely due to greater compliance of the airways which would allow tissues to bulge into the upper airway (Petsche et al. 1995). This theory is supported by radiographic studies which show that head and neck flexion causes a reduction in the dorsoventral diameter of the nasopharynx. A radiographic study of 9 Thoroughbreds showed that the nasopharyngeal diameter in head and neck flexion was 14.4&#8211;36.4% (mean 20.8%) narrower than the nasopharyngeal diameter in head and neck extension (K.J. Allen and L.J. McCluskie, unpublished data). Similarly, Linford et al. (1983) found the mean nasopharyngeal diameter of 5 Thoroughbreds in head flexion was 4.9 cm compared with 7.5 cm in head and neck extension. Cehak et al. (2007) also measured the pharyngeal diameter of 10 horses (mixed breeds) at 3 head positions (flexed, natural, extended) and 3 head levels (lifted dorsally, midway, lowered ventrally). The smallest mean diameter was 3.0 cm found at the dorsal flexed position and the largest mean pharyngeal diameter 5.5 cm was at the extended midway position.

It goes on but I really oughtn't to be sharing it 

Booboos. Pax and give this one a read. It's written by non idiots and everything


----------



## kerilli (4 August 2012)

THANKYOU so much for posting this. 
I really hope enough people read it for it to slightly offset the current thinking, which seems to be 'unless your horse's neck is arched and its head at least vertical, you are a clueless rubbish rider'.


----------



## JFTDWS (4 August 2012)

K the pony in your avatar is clearly in front of the vertical.  You must be a clueless and rubbish rider 


eta, Jess, interesting article.  If I were more inspired I would purchase it myself.  As it stands I'm just enjoying the extracts!


----------



## Stilldreamin' (4 August 2012)

Just had to share- a shot of what Kittell got when he asked Scandic for rein back:

http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.4336335975897.2176764.1512297978&type=1&l=22151ccf6c


----------



## kerilli (4 August 2012)

JFTD said:



			K the pony in your avatar is clearly in front of the vertical.  You must be a clueless and rubbish rider 

Click to expand...

Oh, I am. Tbh she was a bit too far in front of the vertical there, but still better than in rollkur position!


----------



## lastchancer (4 August 2012)

Here's a link to some articles regarding modern dressage and today's top riders, very interesting and amusing reading but do be aware that this guy manages to insult pretty much everyone involved with horses.

http://www.horsemanpro.com/articles2/rollkur.htm


----------



## Jesstickle (4 August 2012)

JFTD said:



			K the pony in your avatar is clearly in front of the vertical.  You must be a clueless and rubbish rider 


eta, Jess, interesting article.  If I were more inspired I would purchase it myself.  As it stands I'm just enjoying the extracts!
		
Click to expand...

I'll send it to you when I get to work on Monday and I  have  your email in front of me if you want. If you don't dob me in!


----------



## JFTDWS (4 August 2012)

kerilli said:



			Oh, I am. Tbh she was a bit too far in front of the vertical there, but still better than in rollkur position!   

Click to expand...

Nah, this is too far in front of the vertical (it's closer to horizontal )...  This pony protests vigorously against rollkur...


----------



## JFTDWS (4 August 2012)

jesstickle said:



			I'll *cough cough* nothingit to you when I get to work on Monday and I  have  your email in front of me if you want. If you don't dob me in!
		
Click to expand...

that'd be grand, ta.  I won't tell if you don't post it on an open forum


----------



## mik (4 August 2012)

jesstickle said:



			I don't mind. It's kind of my job ( I mean I do it for a job so I find it easy) and if people want papers I sort of understand. The last one I just found is a doozy. I am going to risk this and probably get banned but here are some excerpts 

Case 1
A 6-year-old eventing mare was referred for overground endoscopy (Franklin et al. 2008) with a history of abnormal respiratory noise during the cross country phase. The noise was particularly obvious when the rider slowed the horse on the approach to a fence and the horse adopted a more flexed head and neck position. A resting endoscopic examination revealed no abnormalities. The overground endoscopy was performed during 3 bouts of exercise on an all weather gallop. The peak speed attained during the exercise test was 22 mph which is slightly faster than the average speed required for novice eventing (520 m/min &#8776; 19 mph). During the exercise test the rider was instructed to vary the horse's outline from flexed to extended head positions. During the periods of head and neck flexion marked palatal instability leading to dorsal displacement of the soft palate was observed, but when the horse was ridden in a more extended head and neck position, palatal function appeared relatively normal

A 6-year-old showjumper was referred for overground endoscopy with a history of inspiratory noise during exercise. The horse was currently competing successfully and performance was not thought to be affected at present. Overground endoscopy was performed in a large arena and the rider was instructed to exercise the horse as normal. During exercise no abnormal respiratory noise was audible when the horse was ridden with an extended or mildly flexed head and neck position. In addition, no abnormalities were observed endoscopically. However, when ridden with a greater degree of head and neck flexion, the reported inspiratory noise became evident. This corresponded with dynamic bilateral arytenoid and vocal fold collapse 

Several studies have suggested that head and neck flexion can induce or exacerbate dynamic URT collapse (Davidson et al. 2002; Strand et al. 2004, 2009; Franklin et al. 2006; Allen et al. 2007; Strand 2009). Cases 1 and 2 describe 2 different dynamic upper respiratory tract conditions in sport horses only present when the horse exercised with a flexed head and neck position. Upper respiratory tract obstructions as a result of head and neck flexion are principally a problem in sport horses in the UK, in contrast to racehorses which exercise with the head and neck extended

Head and neck flexion has been shown to affect upper airway flow mechanics during exercise, specifically resulting in increased inspiratory impedance and decreased inspiratory flows (Petsche et al. 1995). As this obstruction occurred on inspiration and not expiration the authors proposed that this was unlikely to occur solely because of the acute angle in the airflow pathway and was more likely due to greater compliance of the airways which would allow tissues to bulge into the upper airway (Petsche et al. 1995). This theory is supported by radiographic studies which show that head and neck flexion causes a reduction in the dorsoventral diameter of the nasopharynx. A radiographic study of 9 Thoroughbreds showed that the nasopharyngeal diameter in head and neck flexion was 14.436.4% (mean 20.8%) narrower than the nasopharyngeal diameter in head and neck extension (K.J. Allen and L.J. McCluskie, unpublished data). Similarly, Linford et al. (1983) found the mean nasopharyngeal diameter of 5 Thoroughbreds in head flexion was 4.9 cm compared with 7.5 cm in head and neck extension. Cehak et al. (2007) also measured the pharyngeal diameter of 10 horses (mixed breeds) at 3 head positions (flexed, natural, extended) and 3 head levels (lifted dorsally, midway, lowered ventrally). The smallest mean diameter was 3.0 cm found at the dorsal flexed position and the largest mean pharyngeal diameter 5.5 cm was at the extended midway position.

It goes on but I really oughtn't to be sharing it 

Booboos. Pax and give this one a read. It's written by non idiots and everything 

Click to expand...

Good for you for posting.


----------



## Jesstickle (4 August 2012)

JFTD said:



			that'd be grand, ta.  I won't tell if you don't post it on an open forum 

Click to expand...

No worries. Just returning the favour 

Amazing what you can find when you know where to look isn't it? I must have been tired last night wasting my time searching pubmed for 'rollkur'. Bloody idiot! I should have known a little bit more lateral thinking than that would be required!


----------



## JFTDWS (4 August 2012)

jesstickle said:



			No worries. Just returning the favour 

Amazing what you can find when you know where to look isn't it? I must have been tired last night wasting my time searching pubmed for 'rollkur'. Bloody idiot! I should have known a little bit more lateral thinking than that would be required! 

Click to expand...

I am shocked at your suggestion that I might have infringed copyright laws at some point  

hmmm, yes, I can't see rollkur being a particularly useful search term on pubmed!


----------



## ElphabaFae (4 August 2012)

Does anyone know where this photo came from? http://www.horsecare.org.za/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/DSCN0349.jpg Presuming the camera date is correct, it is from 2012.


----------



## Stilldreamin' (4 August 2012)

ElphabaFae said:



			Does anyone know where this photo came from? http://www.horsecare.org.za/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/DSCN0349.jpg Presuming the camera date is correct, it is from 2012.
		
Click to expand...

Hackney stud in South Africa- more information here:
http://fuglyblog.com/2012/03/01/abused-south-african-horses-continued/


----------



## dafthoss (4 August 2012)

Jess I think I have a log in for wiley wait till I get back and I'll try find it for you


----------



## ElphabaFae (4 August 2012)

Stilldreamin' said:



			Hackney stud in South Africa- more information here:
http://fuglyblog.com/2012/03/01/abused-south-african-horses-continued/

Click to expand...

Thank you!


----------



## Jesstickle (4 August 2012)

dafthoss said:



			Jess I think I have a log in for wiley wait till I get back and I'll try find it for you 

Click to expand...

O good. Then I can read all the other papers the review cites without bankrupting myself! 

I bought the one I actually linked to. It cost me £20. How is that for dedication?!


----------



## dafthoss (4 August 2012)

I'm in devon so I'll see if I can steal enough Internet to find it and send it to you  at £20 a paper you won't have to bankrupt your self to read them all


----------



## Booboos (4 August 2012)

Many thanks for these links jesstickle! I certainly did not mean to be ungrateful to you for digging them up and I apologise if I came across this way. Nor am I looking to argue with anyone, although I will continue to disagree with views I don't agree with! 

I am a bit stuck with the baby today (bad teething day) so I can't look at the studies in detail but unless I am mistaken they have diagrams of what they describe as the flexed neck position and it has nothing to do with rollkur. If it is the paper I remember the flexed position is the 'normal' on the vertical dressage position, so any conclusions of this paper apply to all dressage rather than being about rollkur.


----------



## Jesstickle (4 August 2012)

Nope. No diagrams  Nice endoscopy pictures but that is all. And the showjumping one I think is particularly pertinent.

''instructed to exercise the horse as normal. During exercise no abnormal respiratory noise was audible when the horse was ridden with an extended or mildly flexed head and neck position. In addition, no abnormalities were observed endoscopically. However, when ridden with a greater degree of head and neck flexion, the reported inspiratory noise became evident. This corresponded with dynamic bilateral arytenoid and vocal fold collapse'' 

I'm more than happy to contact the authors to ask exactly what mildly flexed head and neck means but I would imagine, what with them being vets used to performance horses, that we would be talking about something approaching an outline by that point. Obviously the review isn't about hyperflexion so they aren't using the same words but I think it is interesting none the less.

dafthoss has just given me her athens account details so I'm off to get some more info!


----------



## Booboos (4 August 2012)

I knew I had seen some of this before, here it is: http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=395421&highlight=petsche&page=8

It's Petsche who has the diagram of what they mean by 'flexed' and it's an 'on the bit' with the head on or slightly in front of the vertical - not rollkur at all.


----------



## Jesstickle (4 August 2012)

I didn't really expect it to mean rollkur as the study is nothing to do with hyperflexion. I still think it's a good jumping off point though and not irrelevant. Sometimes the exact studies you want don't exist yet and you have to fill the gaps with what is known until they do. Or do it yourself. I'm sure you know that. As I said, I am off to do some more digging around but I am having trouble getting into some of the vet conference lit at the mo. No problem though because fortunately I am friends with an equine vet and I will get her to get hold of it all for me  Annoyingly, despite having an Athens login it's another one I can't read without purchasing it. I really don't care enough to spend another £20! 

Perhaps the world dressage bodies should invest some money. There is tonnes of literature on race horses but very little for dressage. 

FWIW I doubt very much, that given the fact putting the horse on the vertical can restrict it's airways, pulling the horses head beyond that point somehow offers miraculous relief rather than compounding the situation. Bit obviously I don't have an endoscope to investigate this so won't be doing my own research into it. Besides, I actually _ like _ my horses


----------



## Jesstickle (4 August 2012)

As an aside Booboos, where do you actually stand on the fact that rollkur is banned at FEI competitions and these photos seem to highlight an abuse of the rules? 

It is imperative that stretching should be executed by unforced and non aggressive means. By 
&#8216;unforced&#8217; it is meant that the rider is not permitted to use rough, or abrupt aids or apply  
constant unyielding pressure on the horse&#8217;s mouth through a fixed arm and hand position. It is 
the responsibility of the steward to intervene if these requirements are not respected.

The steward will intervene should he observe: 
&#8226; Neck stretching achieved through forced, or aggressive riding  
&#8226; The use of extreme flexion  if it does not comply with the above   
&#8226; A rider deliberately maintaining a sustained fixed head and neck carriage longer than 
approximately ten minutes 
&#8226; In cases when the horse is in a state of general stress and/or fatigue 

''Following constructive debate at the FEI round-table conference at the IOC Headquarters in Lausanne today (9 February), the consensus of the group was that any head and neck position achieved through aggressive force is not acceptable. The group redefined hyperflexion/Rollkur as flexion of the horse&#8217;s neck achieved through aggressive force, which is therefore unacceptable. The technique known as Low, Deep and Round (LDR), which achieves flexion without undue force, is acceptable.''

The horse's head in those photos is definitely held there by force. It's an unsustainable posture for any horse to hold itself in and certainly doesn't comply with LDR diagrams of what can be achieved in an unforced way ( I understand other positions may be used besides those) but how can you possibly argue a horse isn't being forced into a position it physically can not maintain without the riders hands?!


----------



## charlie76 (4 August 2012)

I actually think that these posts take the attention away from what is supposed to be a wonderful occasion.  
From a set of pics all bell breaks loose and detracts everyone from the main focus.
whether you think it is right or wrong,  the stewards and governing bodies had no issue with his warm up as he still competed.  
Tbh,  I don't think pictures are away of telling anything,  all of those shots could have been taken in seconds.
instead of focusing on this,  maybe everyone would be better of focusing on the brilliance of having the Olympic games here on our doorstep.


----------



## Jesstickle (4 August 2012)

charlie76 said:



			I actually think that these posts take the attention away from what is supposed to be a wonderful occasion.  
From a set of pics all bell breaks loose and detracts everyone from the main focus.
whether you think it is right or wrong,  the stewards and governing bodies had no issue with his warm up as he still competed.  
Tbh,  I don't think pictures are away of telling anything,  all of those shots could have been taken in seconds.
instead of focusing on this,  maybe everyone would be better of focusing on the brilliance of having the Olympic games here on our doorstep.
		
Click to expand...

What a strange thing to say. It is perfectly possible to have a poor opinion of the stewards in the dressage warm up at the games and to be thoroughly enjoying the rest of it. 

I'm not actually allowed to post about how great all the other sport I am totally loving is in NL though as it's agains T&Cs  I love sport. I follow multiple sports religiously. I don't take cheating lightly in any of them, and stewards do occasionally make mistakes in all sports so I'm not sure the argument they did nothing convinces me. Would you like me to list all the sports I have an interest in to put your mind at rest that I am not utterly fixated on dressage? It's quite long. Perhaps I should just list all the ones I play or have played instead? Or perhaps all the scandals I can remember that I've said 'hmm, I'm not totally cool with that actually'? Blood gate, Renault telling their driver to park in the wall, Dwayne Chambers etc etc. 

Am I meant to find rollkur more palatable when it's on my doorstep for some reason? I'm not sure I follow your logic.  

I also think you'll find that the rest of the non horsey country is blissfully unaware of this so I wouldn't worry too much that we're somehow ruining it. Mostly because the rest of the country finds dressage a bit lame and weird as far as I can work out and don't see why it should even be an Olympic sport. No idea where they get that idea from


----------



## WoopsiiD (5 August 2012)

Re:the south african pony pic.
Sadly Rollkur is not just a method used by dressage riders.
It has been seen in the showing world too.    Big hulking brutes on tiny ponies bullying them into submission and all for a piece of bloody red ribbon.


----------



## SusannaF (5 August 2012)

Mondy said:



			To me, the reaction of Nelson in that video indicates neurological pain.
		
Click to expand...

Do you think these riders would pay attention if they had their horses pain levels conveyed to them on a computer screen rather than via body language? It could be broadcast  on a display board for the audience... Not that the poor horse isn't doing that anyway...


----------



## touchstone (5 August 2012)

And here's me thinking that dressage was all about schooling a horse to express its natural movements.   The only time horses I've known stick their noses on their chests is to get to an itch, they certainly don't spend time showing off to the others like that.

Science can't measure things like compassion and empathy, both of which I feel is lacking in  riders who will use rollkur.


----------



## Booboos (5 August 2012)

jesstickle: I am not sure but overall I think that respiration for racing is an entirely different business from respiration for dressage or SJ or hacking or other activities. Just because a neck position is optimal for racing and less optimal for other activities doesn't mean it is harmful during these other activities.

On the FEI rule I think it's a complete disaster. Either rollkur is harmful in which case it should be banned full-stop, or it is not in which case riders should be left alone. The rule is a cope out as a result of public pressure. It is vague (what is the difference between rollkur and LDR?), it is excessively subjective (how long is too long? How does one ensure consistency between different stewards?) and it encourages the kind of response one is getting now, i.e. individuals judging from photos that the FEI is not enforcing its own rules. A mess all around.


----------



## SusannaF (5 August 2012)

The FEI also failed to enforce their own rules in a similar case *only the sport was reining.

http://susannaforrest.wordpress.com/2011/05/26/the-definition-of-abuse/

It ended in them saying that they would announce changes to reining rules, but _the rules that they already had_ were already being broken... under the eyes of one of their stewards.

Who elects the FEI??


----------



## perfect11s (5 August 2012)

touchstone said:



			And here's me thinking that dressage was all about schooling a horse to express its natural movements.   The only time horses I've known stick their noses on their chests is to get to an itch, they certainly don't spend time showing off to the others like that.

Science can't measure things like compassion and empathy, both of which I feel is lacking in  riders who will use rollkur.
		
Click to expand...

   Yes +1


----------



## Marydoll (5 August 2012)

Agree with touchstone


----------



## JFTDWS (5 August 2012)

Booboos said:



			On the FEI rule I think it's a complete disaster. Either rollkur is harmful in which case it should be banned full-stop, or it is not in which case riders should be left alone. The rule is a cope out as a result of public pressure. It is vague (what is the difference between rollkur and LDR?), it is excessively subjective (how long is too long? How does one ensure consistency between different stewards?) and it encourages the kind of response one is getting now, i.e. individuals judging from photos that the FEI is not enforcing its own rules. A mess all around.
		
Click to expand...


Rollkur is banned, full stop.

Difference between LDR and rollkur according to FEI rule:

rollkur is held by force.  It is not acceptable to force a neck position.
LDR is not held by force.  Diagrams also show "acceptable" LDR outlines, which do not correlate with those seen in rollkur or the photos of certain riders from Grenwich.

How long is too long?

Any fixed head position held for approx 10 minutes without release is too long.


Seems quite clear to me


----------



## Vizslak (5 August 2012)

FEI's latest response on FB
The FEI absolutely condemns all cruel or aggressive training methods. Rollkur is banned under FEI rules.

We completely agree that the recent pictures are unattractive, but we have spoken to the FEI Stewards and they have clearly confirmed that there were no breaches of the rules.

Rest assured that our Stewards are always there, on the ground, monitoring all training sessions. Any breaches of the rules will result in sanctions.

FEI Facebook is a wonderful platform for sharing and we value your comments. It is FEI policy not to delete posts, but please understand that any comments which include abusive language will be removed.

Thank you


----------



## tristar (5 August 2012)

'they don't accept abusive language,' but they allow abuse of horses, they must be funny people.

ten minutes  in that position is far too long, i personally think you can ride a horse and put it long low and deep, without rollkuring it, depending on the degree, it is a different feel, with variations of  tension or contact and importantly compliance or otherwise of the horse, personally  i detest both.

i agree with booboos if its banned, ban it


----------



## Booboos (5 August 2012)

JFTD said:



			Rollkur is banned, full stop.

Difference between LDR and rollkur according to FEI rule:

rollkur is held by force.  It is not acceptable to force a neck position.
LDR is not held by force.  Diagrams also show "acceptable" LDR outlines, which do not correlate with those seen in rollkur or the photos of certain riders from Grenwich.

How long is too long?

Any fixed head position held for approx 10 minutes without release is too long.


Seems quite clear to me 

Click to expand...

I still think it is vague and difficult to enforce. How much force is too much force? You only have to look at discussions on simple contact and people have enormously diverging opinions on what it means. Also some horses are far more sensitive in the mouth than others and it may be easier to place them in hyperflexed positions, does that mean it's fine because there was no force?

As a steward how to you compare the diagrams with what you see? We have the benefits of photos which are moments in time, the steward is looking at numerous horses, in movement. Do stewards go around with the diagrams holding them up against the horses in the warm-up?

How do stewards police the 10 minute rule? Suppose you have 10 horses in the warm-up 3 of which are being worked in LDR, should the steward have 3 stopwatches that they start and stop each time each horse is hyperflexed? Suppose the horse momentarily lifts its head in the air, is this a proper break in the 10 minute rule or a resistance to the horror of rollkur?


----------



## JFTDWS (5 August 2012)

Booboos said:



			I still think it is vague and difficult to enforce. How much force is too much force? You only have to look at discussions on simple contact and people have enormously diverging opinions on what it means. Also some horses are far more sensitive in the mouth than others and it may be easier to place them in hyperflexed positions, does that mean it's fine because there was no force?

fair point, can't really answer that, though it's not really relevant where the force is extreme, as in the photos from Grenwich.  Assuming we all agree that there is extreme force in those, which we may not 

As a steward how to you compare the diagrams with what you see? We have the benefits of photos which are moments in time, the steward is looking at numerous horses, in movement. Do stewards go around with the diagrams holding them up against the horses in the warm-up?

Do you need diagrams to differentiate horses worked in front of you who are in a competitive outline compared to those evading the bit or those who are slopping along on the forehand?  I don't, and this is merely an extension of that, surely?

How do stewards police the 10 minute rule? Suppose you have 10 horses in the warm-up 3 of which are being worked in LDR, should the steward have 3 stopwatches that they start and stop each time each horse is hyperflexed? Suppose the horse momentarily lifts its head in the air, is this a proper break in the 10 minute rule or a resistance to the horror of rollkur?
		
Click to expand...

I think the key word in the timeframe rule is "approximately" - there's no need for stop watches to  prove it's been a full ten minutes.  If you're stewarding, you must have an idea of passage of time, roughly.  If you notice a horse who has been in a fixed head carriage for a reasonable period of time, you can then keep an eye out for how long it's maintained.  If you can only prove the horse has been worked for 9m30s, it is still approximately 10 minutes and should be dealt with appropriately.

No, momentary lifting can hardly be considered a break from the fixed head carriage - the release of pressure by the rider would have to be the fundamental key, surely?


----------



## Munchkin (5 August 2012)

Where the frigging hell is common sense in all of this nonsense?


----------



## coss (5 August 2012)

To me, rollkur has the highest point being the middle of the neck - undesired.
In a test you want the poll to be the highest point (which it can't be if the horse's head is btv)
In warm up and schooling exercises riders may encourage their horses to stretch into a longer frame - according the diagrams above I believe stretching long/low/down/LDR makes the withers the highest point.
A horse can't have its chin on its chest and keep the withers higher (can it?) - pic taken from f.e.i facebook page.


----------



## Vizslak (5 August 2012)

regardless booboos ''Rollkur is banned under FEI rules''...therefore when Rollkur is used it matters not how long for, a minute is too long as its banned.


----------



## tallyho! (5 August 2012)

The FEI need to stop kow towing to these super rich "modernists".

If only they paid attention to the fundamentals of classical riding and gave points only where it was expressed, they woud not be in such a mess. The judges need education perhaps?


----------



## Vizslak (5 August 2012)

Yes, I see Sylvia Loch spoke out about it this morning, fair play to her.


----------



## Marydoll (5 August 2012)

Vizslak said:



			Yes, I see Sylvia Loch spoke out about it this morning, fair play to her.
		
Click to expand...

Can you point me in the direction of her comments, was it via crc


----------



## Oscar (5 August 2012)

Surely the buck stops with the judges?!! Until they stop rewarding bad riding then the abuse will continue.

"Who will guard the guards"


----------



## tallyho! (5 August 2012)

Exactly horsey lad


----------



## tallyho! (5 August 2012)

Did she Viz, that's good. Where was it?


----------



## JFTDWS (5 August 2012)

tallyho, just copied this off one of the fb groups:

From Horse and Hound Blog.
Statement from Sylvia Loch:
I went to Greenwich and applaud the high standard of the British riders and many, many others. Unfortunately, not everyone rides humanely. By failing to intervene and thereby condoning the riding methods of Patrik Kittel and others like him during the warm-up, the FEI is letting us all down. It is bringing the discipline of dressage into disrepute by not adhering to its own standards, principles and codes of conduct. This is extremely disappointing when the eyes of the world are upon us and how we treat our horses.



I pretty much worship the ground she walks on


----------



## tallyho! (5 August 2012)

I know 

Me too


----------



## Vizslak (5 August 2012)

sorry ^^^yes thats the comment I was referring to.


----------



## tallyho! (5 August 2012)

Thought she summed up the worlds feelings rather well don't you?


----------



## JFTDWS (5 August 2012)

tallyho! said:



			Thought she summed up the worlds feelings rather well don't you?
		
Click to expand...

She's quite eloquent, for a horsey type


----------



## Vizslak (5 August 2012)

I do and its very nice to see someone stand up and have the balls to say something


----------



## Jesstickle (5 August 2012)

I'm sure someone will be along shortly to tell you all that SL is actually an idiot don't worry  

Edit: as an aside, don't you think riders that use rollkur should provide _ us _ with some solid evidence it isn't detrimental to the horse? I bet they haven't done any peer reviewed studies into whether it is or not and yet they're quite happy to tell us it is good for the horse and doesn't harm the horse. Quite vehemently at times. Double standards perhaps asking that we prove it is cruel because our gut instinct says it is but not expecting them to prove it isn't when really all they are going on is empirical evidence and gut instinct themselves? Why do they have the right to do anything without evidence but we don't have the right to demand they stop. We seem to be at an impasse if you follow these demands for evidence to the logical conclusion.

No one can ever do ANYTHING ever again or stop doing ANYTHING ever again without providing properly peer reviewed evidence. Good job I'm not PM isn't it?


----------



## Marydoll (5 August 2012)

Unfortunately the FEI vet has just been on rudells round up, stating there has been no rollkur in the warm up along with someone from WHW, who never commented on the pics 
I am very dissapointed in the stance by the FEI their head appears to be firmly in the sand


----------



## JFTDWS (5 August 2012)

jesstickle said:



			I'm sure someone will be along shortly to tell you all that SL is actually an idiot don't worry  

Click to expand...

Then I will have to throw my toys out of the pram, insult them rudely and flounce off the forum.


----------



## mulledwhine (5 August 2012)

Why are the judges not deducting points for this? 

In not doing so they are sending out the message that it is acceptable


----------



## Marydoll (5 August 2012)

Id have to say the whole thing is leaving a bad taste, the fact theyre not even prepared to aknowledge this as an ongoing problem thats not resolved really has me worried for the sport and also for the many horses it will continue to affect


----------



## asyouwish (5 August 2012)

Its sickening and I would just love to see someone tie them into an un-natural position to make them more flexible. How would they like their legs tied behind their heads to make them able to flex and do the splits and better yoga etc? Im sure they wouldnt like it one little bit 

They should be banned from world competitions, the proof is there, videos, pictures and still the FEI and Olympic rulemakers are allowing them to do it. Makes you totally ashamed to compete sometimes. I wonder if everyone who objects across the equestrian circuit STOPPED giving BD money by entering their shows and affiliating and boycotted if this would make a difference.


----------



## Jesstickle (5 August 2012)

asyouwish said:



			Its sickening and I would just love to see someone tie them into an un-natural position to make them more flexible. How would they like their legs tied behind their heads to make them able to flex and do the splits and better yoga etc? Im sure they wouldnt like it one little bit 

Click to expand...

Kind of like they do to child gymnasts in certain nations. I don't really like the idea of that very much either but I'm probably just being overly soft and need to get some scientific evidence  I remember a really harrowing interview with olga korbut about how she was constantly chided for everything she ate and ended up counting how many sips of water she had a day   Loads of sports are bl00dy weird! Actually, that was a really interesting documentary. I wonder if I could find it online?


----------



## Bikerchickone (5 August 2012)

I just watched the FEI and WHW on Horse and Country too... What a waste of ten minutes of my life. They just trickled out all the same rubbish and the bright and bouncy interviewer didn't even bother asking the right questions. Wonder how much they were paid to give the FEI that public relations opportunity tonight? :rollseyes: 

I agree with SL's statement they're bringing the sport into disrepute and will have no one to blame but themselves when eventually people start to boycott the perpetrators more forcefully. 

Don't actually know why I expected any different from them


----------



## dominobrown (5 August 2012)

Vizslak said:



			I too am very keen for people to not to be hysterical and to be able to differentiate between what is and isnt rollkur, LDR is a neccessary training method (actually that MOST horses would benefit from if done correctly day in day out) it makes the horse soft and supple over the back, I would rather see overbent horses working LDR properly through from behind any day of the week than a horse with its head stuck in the air doing as it wishes, its how I have trained my horses for years and always will do, it builds a strong supple horse. There are videos and pictures floating about that I have seen with horses in this position or indeed in a correct competition outline (poll high) with captions of Rollkur underneath, please when spreading the facts make sure people know what is and ISNT Rollkur. I dont believe Carl Hester works his horses in Rollkur but rather that he works them in an outline deemed to be 'overbent' which is totally fine and not Rollkur, I am willing to be corrected on this though
		
Click to expand...

Sorry to dredge this up, but this is one of the most important points on this thread. 
A long low outline is quite comfy for the horse and encourages stretch over the back and builds muscle. The pictures of Patrick Kittell warming up do show Rollkur in my opinion.
I work my horse LDR, but I ride with long reins (in a snaffle, with a nice light contact), the horse is stretching down, lifting his back, his ear a pricked. He is going fowards and is stretching down. Sometimes I will ask for inside or outside bend for him to stretch his body a bit, again not hauling him round.
If I hauled my horse anywhere I would be in A+E!! He makes any diacomfort very clear  
I will try and find a picture of this, as its a handy tool for training horses, and it doesn't involve force, like rollkur.
p.s Try holding your next in the same position for 10 minutes, any position, just don't move it... uncomfortable?


----------



## dominobrown (5 August 2012)

This website shows head positions which are acceptable...
http://www.barnmice.com/group/horsejournals/forum/topics/fei-publishes-diagrams-of

None of them are Rollkur in my opinion.


----------



## JFTDWS (5 August 2012)

dominobrown said:



			This website shows head positions which are acceptable...
http://www.barnmice.com/group/horsejournals/forum/topics/fei-publishes-diagrams-of

None of them are Rollkur in my opinion.
		
Click to expand...

I agree, but I also don't think the photos correspond to any of those "acceptable" outlines, by a long way


----------



## dominobrown (5 August 2012)

JFTD said:



			I agree, but I also don't think the photos correspond to any of those "acceptable" outlines, by a long way 

Click to expand...


Well exactly- the drawings are acceptable, the pictures deffo don't compare! If I was a little more computer literate you could but them side by side to show comparison...


----------



## JFTDWS (5 August 2012)

dominobrown said:



			Well exactly- the drawings are acceptable, the pictures deffo don't compare! If I was a little more computer literate you could but them side by side to show comparison...
		
Click to expand...

We're singing from the same hymn sheet then.

If I were really computer literate I might superimpose the images in rollkur onto the acceptable outline images to demonstrate the differences.  I'm not


----------



## dominobrown (5 August 2012)

Yeh me too! Sadly I can't 
But if anyone with photoshop can... it would be quite useful to see the difference!











Ahh! Spot the difference....


----------



## el_Snowflakes (5 August 2012)

Rosehip said:



			Im surprised that people are picking *just* on PK....as far as I have seen (and I work in dressage) everyone has at some time or another had a horse in a hyperflexed state.
I see nothing wrong in taking a horse who isnt listening to the seat or the bridle into a deep outline and saying hang on matey, listen. 
IMHO I would rather see a horse go into rolkur for 2 mins than see someone kick hell out of one with spurs on, or belt it with a whip! The tap, tap, tap, nag, nag, nag of a schooling whip makes me want to do it to the rider!!

I dont like to hear/see equestrianism being portrayed as an elitist sport, or as a cruel sport, but I dont see how hyperflexion is seen as worse than horses with spur wheals, cut mouths, whip marks that are seen at some shows. 

There are many many many worse things that could happen to a horse than a little hyperflexion in a workout. 

Pootle, no, one is not limited to one concern apiece, nor am I commenting on every thread I find banal, as that is a waste of my time. Are you being deliberately pedantic or have you a bee in your bonnet?

I merely feel that there are a lot more things to fret over than a german rider hyperflexing for a few minutes in a warm up.


ETA: Im well aware that Rolkur is banned - however it is only banned when going over the length of time the FEI allow. Those who wish to use Rolkur in short bursts are allowed to do so, and as such I find nothing wrong with it. 
I do disagree with constant hyperflexion. The video of PK warming up has been cut to make it seem that he is in constant rolkur, when he infact is not.
		
Click to expand...

Because there are worse things that can happen to a horse does not make it ok. I can safely say I have never seen a horse at a show with the injuries you describe.

ETA: What makes you think 'belting' a horse, constant tapping with a whip or kicking the hell out of it with spurs on is the the alternative to rollkur? Sorry but your argument is very weak.


----------



## _GG_ (5 August 2012)

Ah, the FEI are sticking to their guns then. They only have one option now with this event due to the poor decision to make their initial statement. That left them in a position which would mean admitting fault if they took action or facing the embarrassment of explaining themselves if they started to backtrack.

No...the FEI will be managing this problem, sticking to their guns by using the most passive statements they can, designed to control the situation until the Olympics is over. Then, they will have numerous discussions and decisions will be made on how to better manage this issue in the future.

This thread is extremely interesting, but all you have to do to remember how simple it is is to show a few videos to someone who knows nothing about it...or horses. My father said to me today, on hearing a discussion about Rollkur, "but I've seen you ride Fly when her head is low and behind the vertical...do you do use this method? So, I showed him some clips. A few of different riders using Rollkur, to which he became quite angry, then the clip of me riding Fly that I posted on page 13 of this thread. He actually commented that Fly looked more relaxed when she dropped her head down...then commenting that it looked like she was having a good stretch and that there was no pulling on the reins. 

That is how I define the issue of Rollkur at its most basic level. It's using a horses desire to evade pain in order to create submission. 

It is the judges that will ultimately determine the future use of Rollkur. Fingers crossed Charlotte, Carl and Laura will bring home medals...including Gold. Would love it if Richard could too 
If we win team and individual, it will be the first time in 12 years that Anky has not won. It will be a clear sign that you do not need to use these methods to win the big medals and so long as the trend continues in that desired fashion...the rest will take care of itself.

If you start making the issue about long term effects on the horse, you will ultimately detract from the main and very basic issue that it is simply wrong to knowingly inflict pain on any animal.

Sylvia Loch has done wonders today...but we need more people to comment who can stand on their own two feet and be counted.

It will take an extremely brave big name in dressage to come out and publicly support the movement against Rollkur. I hope it happens, but I don't think it will!


----------



## Vizslak (5 August 2012)

yes I was not for a minute suggesting Kittels horse is not in Rollkur, just that other images being bandied around are giving a false impression. I'll be brave here as I have photobucket open, here is my lad working LDR (totally different)





ets, infact this is quite high for a normal LDR position


----------



## tallyho! (6 August 2012)

Exactly good on SL. I posted the photos on BAPSH - a lot of people on there training in Portugal and Spain where classical is pretty much the only way (not that I support everything they do there by the way) and not one person even commented.

I did wonder if many of them had been protesting against it and have got bored trying. Many compete BD though so I was really surprised.

Why aren't people who have a bit of influence speaking up???!!!


----------



## Stilldreamin' (6 August 2012)

This denial based on photos- moment on time blah blah is ridiculous. Weren't they watching miss Cornelissen ride into the ring?! Thousands of spectators and probably millions of online/tv viewers watched her work that horse with his nose in his chest!


----------



## Booboos (6 August 2012)

What did everyone think of Rubi's test then? He seemed clearly BTV to me in parts of the test (and was marked down for them) despite being 'the right' breed and having been trained in 'the right' method?

tallyho!: my experience of much of Portuguese and Spanish riding is that they start the horses quite early on, with no hacking, very strong bits and riders are mainly strong men who use their hands a lot. They also seem to progress to advanced moves far too quickly before any of the basics are established so you might have a horse that can piaffe, but it can't do a 20m circle without support from the hands.

jesstickle: ironically the few studies on this issue have been funded by the Dutch, despite the 'outcry' no one else has bothered to spend any money on this. It's a very dangerous step to require the 'accused' to prove one's innocence simply because others have a gut feeling there is something wrong. Remember that over time people have had a gut feeling that there is something wrong with you if your skin is black or yellow, if your religion in Christian, or Muslim, or Hindu, if your sexuality is promiscuous or homosexual, etc. For anyone who thinks these are attitudes of the past there are current examples in the US where people have cited as their defence in the killing of lesbians their disgust of the practices! If individuals are satisfied with unexamined and unproven gut feelings as the basis of their opinion, so be it, but they are not sufficient for limiting the behaviour of others. Otherwise my gut feelings about this and similar threads on rollkur is that they are pretty disgusting and shameful, so let's rely on my feelings to ban all these discussions!


----------



## dominobrown (6 August 2012)

Well said booboos- I agree.


----------



## Jesstickle (6 August 2012)

Booboos I would liken it more to introducing a new surgical technique to the world or a new drug or something along those lines. Likening it to racism is, I feel, very crass of you and belittles those who have been victims of such atrocities. Being a holocaust survivor isn't quite the same as being PK is it?  If you want a new method, in scientific terms, to become the norm it is entirely up to you to prove its efficacy and safety. If you want to make this about science anky et al need to follow the scientific rules too.


----------



## tallyho! (6 August 2012)

Booboos said:



			tallyho!: my experience of much of Portuguese and Spanish riding is that they start the horses quite early on, with no hacking, very strong bits and riders are mainly strong men who use their hands a lot. They also seem to progress to advanced moves far too quickly before any of the basics are established so you might have a horse that can piaffe, but it can't do a 20m circle without support from the hands[/QOUTE]

There is much I disagree with and perhaps I speak for very few people who don't treat horses like this. The people I have met, wait until horses are 5 or 6 to start as they know how late they are to mature. Some back at 3 which is normal but I imagined that members of that association would be against rollkur or at least had something to say. Clearly, I was very wrong.

The places you are talking about are the ones people don't know how to avoid. Particularly foreign buyers.  They see a nice Spanish horse that can piaffe and assume its an advanced horse. How wrong they are. Sadly, these are the ones experts in this country take the inexperienced to see! They don't get shown that it lives in a dark stable most of its life and piaffe is the only thing it can do!

But anyway, I am not here to discuss the intricacies of Spanish horses. I wanted to raise awareness of rollkur in the Olympics.
		
Click to expand...


----------



## perfect11s (6 August 2012)

Booboos said:



			What did everyone think of Rubi's test then? He seemed clearly BTV to me in parts of the test (and was marked down for them) despite being 'the right' breed and having been trained in 'the right' method?

tallyho!: my experience of much of Portuguese and Spanish riding is that they start the horses quite early on, with no hacking, very strong bits and riders are mainly strong men who use their hands a lot. They also seem to progress to advanced moves far too quickly before any of the basics are established so you might have a horse that can piaffe, but it can't do a 20m circle without support from the hands.

jesstickle: ironically the few studies on this issue have been funded by the Dutch, despite the 'outcry' no one else has bothered to spend any money on this. It's a very dangerous step to require the 'accused' to prove one's innocence simply because others have a gut feeling there is something wrong. Remember that over time people have had a gut feeling that there is something wrong with you if your skin is black or yellow, if your religion in Christian, or Muslim, or Hindu, if your sexuality is promiscuous or homosexual, etc. For anyone who thinks these are attitudes of the past there are current examples in the US where people have cited as their defence in the killing of lesbians their disgust of the practices! If individuals are satisfied with unexamined and unproven gut feelings as the basis of their opinion, so be it, but they are not sufficient for limiting the behaviour of others. Otherwise my gut feelings about this and similar threads on rollkur is that they are pretty disgusting and shameful, so let's rely on my feelings to ban all these discussions! 

Click to expand...

 So basicly  dont think for yourself wait until an expert tells you what to think!!!!


----------



## Jesstickle (6 August 2012)

Let me elaborate my reasoning as I was on my phone earlier but I'm not ensconced safely in the lab and can type a bit easier. 

I work at a diagnostics company.We have a new technology my CEO invented. We think it's really neat, better than what is out there at the moment. That's our gut instinct from working with it every day. 

However, before we are allowed to go forth and tell the world to use our test and sell it to people we have to, rightly, prove our gut feeling is correct. There is potential harm involved ( someone might get the wrong diagnosis and receive delayed or no treatment) so we have to go through clinical trials to prove efficacy and safety.

In the world you propose Booboos, we could sell our test, confidently assuring people it works a  treat and there is chance  of us getting it wrong. And it would be up to the rest of the world to prove that wasn't the case. Doesn't that seem a little off to you? Imagine if we were wrong; the consequences whilst we waited for someone somewhere to decide it was worth their while to do a study in to it. 

Lets try another one. A doctor somewhere thinks it would be beneficial to all children to remove half of one of their legs at birth. That's his theory. Lets imagine he has a reasonably sound reason for thinking this. Do we just let him go off and do this or do we impose rules on him? Do we ask him to provide a reason for his thinking, if we can see merit in his thought process he then has to ask us permission to perform a trial which is strictly regulated and present the data to us. The onus is his to prove this theory is right. We don't wait for the rest of the world to be so horrified they prove him wrong.

That is how science works. We aren't talking about someone's innate sexuality or race, which they have no choice in, we're talking about someone's theory they have concocted. They are two very fundamentally different things and you can't possibly say singling someone out for something they can  not possibly change about themselves is the same as singling someone out for a belief they hold.  If you want to make it about science that's up to you. 

I just object to an obvious breach of rules, as previously mentioned


----------



## Fidgety (6 August 2012)

This article goes to some length to describe the effects of Rollkur on the horse.  I'm aware that it might not be seen as 'scientific enough' in order to satisfy - but as this article points out 'Pain cannot be scientifically measured', I'd hope that for any who might be in doubt that thought alone would be enough to give food for thought :-(

http://scienceofmotion.com/documents/hyper-flexion.html

Interestingly, the article finishes with the words

"_If 10 or 50 or 100 spectators stand up and turn their back on the ring or even leave the ring area, perhaps riders, trainers, judges, stewards and even the governing body might realize that if they do not respect horses,  they may have to pack and go because a very large body of real horse persons will not let go. _"


----------



## Booboos (6 August 2012)

jesstickle said:



			Booboos I would liken it more to introducing a new surgical technique to the world or a new drug or something along those lines. Likening it to racism is, I feel, very crass of you and belittles those who have been victims of such atrocities. Being a holocaust survivor isn't quite the same as being PK is it?  If you want a new method, in scientific terms, to become the norm it is entirely up to you to prove its efficacy and safety. If you want to make this about science anky et al need to follow the scientific rules too.
		
Click to expand...

I didn't say that PK's treatment is similar in gravity and harm caused to holocaust survivors (and frankly I would suspect this is a wilfull misinterpratation of what I am trying to say, as what I am trying to say is a very simple, well known, liberal position on the justification of the restrictions of liberty). I am saying that the reasoning used by the Nazis to kill Jews (and many others) which was basically "I don't like you" is insufficient ground for restricting the liberty of others, and this goes for all cases where gut feeling is used as in the PK case. 

Anky et al have proved the efficacy of the technique through their success, their horses tend to do very well, they also tend to have long careers and not seem to suffer from any problems, not any more than horses in general. How much more positive proof do you need? But in any case, I am not trying to convince you to practice rollkur (which is the case that needs positive evidence), merely not to stop others from doing so.


----------



## Booboos (6 August 2012)

perfect11s said:



			So basicly  dont think for yourself wait until an expert tells you what to think!!!!
		
Click to expand...

As a professional philosopher my entirely life is dedicated to reasoning and helping others reason. I can't think what basis you would have for making the above claim, it doesn't seem to relate to anything I have said.


----------



## Vizslak (6 August 2012)

booboos, to liken Rollkur to racism or homophobia is ridiculous IMO. The rest of us could just as easily flip that on its head and use it comparitively for our view but to do so is rather crass. 
Purely, objectively, it is banned, to use it is cheating/unsportmanlike/rule flouting, therefore no matter what your stance on whether it should or shouldnt be FEI banned from a scientific view or any other is irrelevant. Kittel, and others using the technique in the warm up should have been disqualified or heavily penalised for their blatent disregard of the rules they know are in place.


----------



## Jesstickle (6 August 2012)

Booboos said:



			Anky et al have proved the efficacy of the technique through their success, their horses tend to do very well, they also tend to have long careers and not seem to suffer from any problems, not any more than horses in general. How much more positive proof do you need?
		
Click to expand...

I think perhaps you don't understand scientific evidence as well as you purport if you think that anecdotal evidence from a totally non controlled environment counts as a significant result.


----------



## Booboos (6 August 2012)

jesstickle said:



			Let me elaborate my reasoning as I was on my phone earlier but I'm not ensconced safely in the lab and can type a bit easier. 

I work at a diagnostics company.We have a new technology my CEO invented. We think it's really neat, better than what is out there at the moment. That's our gut instinct from working with it every day. 

However, before we are allowed to go forth and tell the world to use our test and sell it to people we have to, rightly, prove our gut feeling is correct. There is potential harm involved ( someone might get the wrong diagnosis and receive delayed or no treatment) so we have to go through clinical trials to prove efficacy and safety.

In the world you propose Booboos, we could sell our test, confidently assuring people it works a  treat and there is chance  of us getting it wrong. And it would be up to the rest of the world to prove that wasn't the case. Doesn't that seem a little off to you? Imagine if we were wrong; the consequences whilst we waited for someone somewhere to decide it was worth their while to do a study in to it. 

Lets try another one. A doctor somewhere thinks it would be beneficial to all children to remove half of one of their legs at birth. That's his theory. Lets imagine he has a reasonably sound reason for thinking this. Do we just let him go off and do this or do we impose rules on him? Do we ask him to provide a reason for his thinking, if we can see merit in his thought process he then has to ask us permission to perform a trial which is strictly regulated and present the data to us. The onus is his to prove this theory is right. We don't wait for the rest of the world to be so horrified they prove him wrong.

That is how science works. We aren't talking about someone's innate sexuality or race, which they have no choice in, we're talking about someone's theory they have concocted. They are two very fundamentally different things and you can't possibly say singling someone out for something they can  not possibly change about themselves is the same as singling someone out for a belief they hold.  If you want to make it about science that's up to you. 

I just object to an obvious breach of rules, as previously mentioned 

Click to expand...

What I have said has none of the above implications. 

Let me try explaining the argument one more time:
In a free society people should have the freedom to do as they please with themselves and with consenting others. The only limit to such freedom is where it affects others, and the effect has to be significant, e.g. substantial harm. For liberals, as long as choice is free, individuals can do whatever they like to themselves, i.e. expose themselves to risk (e.g. riding), expose themselves to harm (e.g. S&M) or even extreme and irreversible harm (e.g. suicide). They cannot, however, cause harm to non-consenting others, so my liberty does not extend to harming you. Harm is interpreted as substantial physical or emotional harm and not mere offence or disgust. This reasoning has been used in the UK to de-criminalise prostitution and homosexuality, which is why I referred to these kinds of examples.

If one wishes to restrict an activity one needs to prove that it is harmful. There is no evidence whatsoever that rollkur is harmful other than people's upset feelings, despite the fact that this question has been in the air for a while and a number of vets have considered it. Therefore there are no grounds to restrict the practice of rollkur.

Your example of diagnostic intervention involves the introduction of an unknown factor into health care. Clinical trials are appropriate in order to establish whether this is indeed a health care intervention (i.e. efficatious and safe) or a waste of time or a huge risk to health. This is not a liberty question as there is no right to sell untested diagnostics to an unsuspecting public (since this is not about what you are proposing to do to yourself or consenting others (patients cannot consent to an unknown treatment/diagnostic method because the information requirement cannot be satisfied). The only liberty question here is the patient's right to refuse this treatment.


----------



## Vizslak (6 August 2012)

Booboos, the pain is not scientifically measurable nor the psychological harm, and once again you seem to be missing the actual point, the FEI banned it, on welfare grounds after thorough investigation, therefore it doesnt matter what you or I or anyone else think of their decision, merely, they made it, the rule is being flouted, therefore Kittel as well as others are WRONG in their actions because it goes against the rules. If someone was caught rapping before the SJ they would be disqualified, because it goes against the rules, the same should apply here


----------



## Jesstickle (6 August 2012)

I'm sorry. I thought we were having a debate about science. I'm not philosopher (nor would I wish to be) and am completely unqualified to comment from that perspective.  I would end up looking foolish and I don't think one should enter into arguments without a reasonable understanding of what is going on. I can interpret scientific papers and I can offer insight into how the scientific world turns but that is about all.

ETS: what vizzy already said. I object as it is against the rules. There is foul play a foot here. There is no liberty to practise rollkur in FEI warm ups as it is banned. IF you choose to compete in their events you choose to play by their rules. Right?


----------



## JFTDWS (6 August 2012)

Booboos, I'm not a philosopher, so perhaps I am missing something crucial here, but you repeatedly refer to "consenting" others.  Now the infringed party in the rollkur debate is the horse - not the spectator who views it with horror.  I feel that where substantial force is required to perform something to / on a horse, that horse is *not* consenting - quite the contrary.  The tail swishing, mouth opening, unhappy body language all indicates that the horse is not a willing participant in that activity.  

One could, I am aware, extend that argument to say that a horse doesn't consent to being kept in captivity, ridden or worked at all, as the horse never truly "consents" to that either.  I'm also aware that when I ask something of my horse, he disobeys, and I insist he performs (by spur or whip, used lightly) I am infringing his liberties by my own standard.  I would also argue, though, that my horses' willingness to approach me of their own volition in the field, their relaxed, confident body language around me and under saddle and the infrequent and very limited requirement of the use of force (in comparison with rollkur) indicate some level of consent.  I'm aware you're not making the argument against riding at all, I'm just making you aware that I'm aware of the limitations and flaws of my own argument 

This, of course, all assumes that you believe that a horse is worthy of some of the rights of a human, in a free society.


----------



## fburton (6 August 2012)

Booboos, I am not a philosopher either, but you will surely recognize that there are also activities that do not cause "substantial physical or emotional harm" but which are nevertheless banned because they offend Society's morals, or at least an overwhelming majority of its members. For example, any form of sexual contact with horses is illegal even in cases where there is no demonstrable harm. It is simply not acceptable to most folks, not only because of the massive yuck factor but also because it is rightly considered extremely demeaning to both perpetrator and victim. It offends dignity as well as arousing disgust. This is a counterexample to your assertion that "The *only* limit to such freedom is where it affects others, and the effect has to be significant, e.g. substantial harm." [my emphasis] It shows there are valid / accepted criteria for restricting freedoms _other_ than purely preventing harm.

While Rollkur is not prohibited with the same force of law as the example above (apologies for any offence caused) or reviled by quite as overwhelming a majority, it could be said to come into a similar category. It is an activity which has not (yet!) been proved to cause substantial harm, but which still offends the morals of enough horsepeople to be outlawed in the microcosm of competitive dressage.

And quite right too, imho... The problem seems to be one of enforcement.


----------



## fburton (6 August 2012)

Talking of enforcement...

I personally would love to see rein tension monitoring becoming a standard part of the dressage test, if the technology could be miniaturized and made completely unobtrusive. That would allow riders to be rewarded for showing real lightness in the reins, measured objectively. It could also be used to detect and penalize use of "aggressive force". It would not prevent force being used where necessary for safety reasons, but would draw attention to (and hence discourage) maintained high levels of force.

There will no doubt be some people who argue that high levels of force _are_ needed to produce outstanding performances. However, I believe the fact that horses can be ridden very well on light contact shows that they are wrong.


----------



## no_no_nanette (6 August 2012)

fburton said:



			Talking of enforcement...

I personally would love to see rein tension monitoring becoming a standard part of the dressage test, if the technology could be miniaturized and made completely unobtrusive. That would allow riders to be rewarded for showing real lightness in the reins, measured objectively. It could also be used to detect and penalize use of "aggressive force". It would not prevent force being used where necessary for safety reasons, but would draw attention to (and hence discourage) maintained high levels of force.

There will no doubt be some people who argue that high levels of force _are_ needed to produce outstanding performances. However, I believe the fact that horses can be ridden very well on light contact shows that they are wrong.
		
Click to expand...

What a great idea!

To contribute to the debate (which is a really interesting one btw, not often HHO strays into the realms of philosophy!), here's a link to a recent study wich does seem to indicate that the training causes distress.  :

"A recent study by Dutch and Danish scientists on the impact of Rolkur, realistic as it was done under full training conditions": http://&#8203;www.horsesandpeople.c...;364-hyperflexion-ises2012-s&#8203;tress.html

Presumably the FEI would not have banned it after an in-depth investigation if their vets had not discovered that it did cause the horse pain and distress.  It seems to me to come down to two issues : the appearance of many of the horses trained using this method is tense, BTV, with a lot of body language indicating discomfort.  (Ears pinned back, swishing tail, muscle tension).  Where this is happening during a test, WHY are the judges not marking it down?  If riders were being penalised - as they should be - for having a tense and btv horse, then this would instantly discourage the approach.  So judges marking correctly is one issue.

The other, as many have said on here, is that the use of Rolkur and incorrect use of related approaches, have been outlawed by the FEI.  Yet we saw evidence of more than "a few seconds" both in the warm up photos and actually in the arena of the over-use of enforced bending.  The FEI needs to enforce its own rules.  Simples, as a certain meerkat would say.


----------



## Marydoll (6 August 2012)

Boo boos i find youre comment astonishing, have you looked at the faces and eyes in the pictures and videos of horses in rollkur ?
While Anky et al might be doing well and winning, does that make it alright to train a horse in a way that causes, tension, discomfort, pain and psychological distress ? Is that what we as equestrians have become ? f eck the comfort of the horse do this and youll have success, the horse will still work, who cares if it has a **** life where everytime a bit is put in its mouth we can cut off his air, reduce circulation to his tongue, never mind the pain we're causing throughout his body forcing him into an unnatural frame, modern dressage has allowed itself to be slip so far from classical natural movement, half the judges couldnt spot it if it was sat in their lap, the marking at most dressage comps are testimony to that.
Somewhere along the way in dressage the true beauty of a horse moving properly with horse and rider working  in harmony has been sadly lost ...., and god help the horses if the equestrians in this world just sit back and accept it because its been proven to get you rosettes, medals, and lets not forget the root of all evil MONEY .


----------



## RuthM (6 August 2012)

*Anky et al have proved the efficacy of the technique* through their success, their horses tend to do very well, they also tend to have long careers and not seem to suffer from any problems, not any more than horses in general. How much more *positive proof* do you need? But in any case, I am not trying to convince you to practice rollkur (which is the case that needs positive evidence), merely not to stop others from doing so.
		
Click to expand...

(emphasis added)

This is shoddy and shows a lack of scientific understanding in the extreme. First of all 'proof' is a huge word, like 'never'. To get to a place of proof a technique would require study in it's own right, and then for that study to be open to peer review, to be repeated, criticised, criticisms rebuffed with compelling evidence, further repetition, and so on. What you offer as compelling evidence would not even clear the first hurdle. To begin with there's no account of the confounding variables involved in highly bred horses that lead exceptionally different lives from the average ned, nor those variables involved in the full breadth of their training, nor is their any attempt to account for the judges bias, nor account for the validity and strength of evidence regarding the practice of the technique, nor knowledge of the extent (time/severity) to which the technique is used. 

It's difficult to overstate exactly how wide of the mark it is to say 'Anky et al have proved the efficacy of the technique'; however I hope I have answered the question 'How much more positive proof do you need?


----------



## MerrySherryRider (6 August 2012)

fburton said:



			Talking of enforcement...

I personally would love to see rein tension monitoring becoming a standard part of the dressage test, if the technology could be miniaturized and made completely unobtrusive. That would allow riders to be rewarded for showing real lightness in the reins, measured objectively. It could also be used to detect and penalize use of "aggressive force". It would not prevent force being used where necessary for safety reasons, but would draw attention to (and hence discourage) maintained high levels of force.

There will no doubt be some people who argue that high levels of force _are_ needed to produce outstanding performances. However, I believe the fact that horses can be ridden very well on light contact shows that they are wrong.
		
Click to expand...

You mean a lighter version of this ? http://www.reintension.net/. Wonderful idea, not only for competition but as standard equipment in training establishments.


----------



## kerilli (6 August 2012)

Booboos, what is your opinion of rapping, using chemicals to make horses' legs ultra-sensitive, use of spikes inside boots, invisible metal poles above the height of the wooden pole, etc etc? You could I suppose argue that they haven't been proven to be detrimental to the horses in the long run, that ultra-careful horses trained using these methods are very successful, that their careers are no longer or shorter than horses trained without using these methods.  
Does that make it alright to use these methods, then?


----------



## Jesstickle (6 August 2012)

kerilli said:



			Booboos, what is your opinion of rapping, using chemicals to make horses' legs ultra-sensitive, use of spikes inside boots, invisible metal poles above the height of the wooden pole, etc etc? You could I suppose argue that they haven't been proven to be detrimental to the horses in the long run, that ultra-careful horses trained using these methods are very successful, that their careers are no longer or shorter than horses trained without using these methods.  
Does that make it alright to use these methods, then?
		
Click to expand...

I asked that and apparently unless there is scientific evidence to to suggest it is harmful it's fine to use them 



Booboos said:



			Yes I do think that if you want to make rapping or trotting 3 year olds on the road illegal you need to prove that they are harmful.
		
Click to expand...


----------



## perfect11s (6 August 2012)

marydoll said:



			Boo boos i find youre comment astonishing, have you looked at the faces and eyes in the pictures and videos of horses in rollkur ?
While Anky et al might be doing well and winning, does that make it alright to train a horse in a way that causes, tension, discomfort, pain and psychological distress ? Is that what we as equestrians have become ? f eck the comfort of the horse do this and youll have success, the horse will still work, who cares if it has a **** life where everytime a bit is put in its mouth we can cut off his air, reduce circulation to his tongue, never mind the pain we're causing throughout his body forcing him into an unnatural frame, modern dressage has allowed itself to be slip so far from classical natural movement, half the judges couldnt spot it if it was sat in their lap, the marking at most dressage comps are testimony to that.
Somewhere along the way in dressage the true beauty of a horse moving properly with horse and rider working  in harmony has been sadly lost ...., and god help the horses if the equestrians in this world just sit back and accept it because its been proven to get you rosettes, medals, and lets not forget the root of all evil MONEY .
		
Click to expand...

 I think well I hope BooBoos is just bored  and hence the devils advocate posts ??Im sure anyone who sees horse riding as a partnership and wants to try and work with horses rather than
dominate and force them to do things  for you,
We had the  answers in god knows what BC from a greek called xeophon and since then Mongs have come up with gadgets and short cuts to train horses   draw reins and alsorts of other ***** to force a horse into what we think we want  ...
Anything forced and misundestood can never be beautifull- Xenophon 400BC..


----------



## Keen (6 August 2012)

perfect11s said:



			... Anything forced and misundestood can never be beautifull ...
		
Click to expand...

Forced and misunderstood?  Like your one remaining braincell, perfect11s?


----------



## tallyho! (6 August 2012)

I suppose, since the wheel cannot be reinvented, some people feel they must reinvent riding horses what haven't changed since the branch of evolution they last emerged from... 

Use hands. No! Use legs! Actually, use legs, then hands. Thinking about it, use leg and hand alternately. How about, just hand? Yes, just hand and bend the neck left and right and down repeatedly! Brilliant! We got a rosette for that!!! Ooh, can the horse breathe? Um, it's tongues gone a bit blue... Yes but is it still alive? Yes. Brilliant! We shall carry on!


----------



## fburton (6 August 2012)

I believe the blue tongue has since been retracted.


----------



## SusannaF (6 August 2012)

fburton said:



			I believe the blue tongue has since been retracted.
		
Click to expand...

It's still up.

http://epona.tv/uk/news/show/artikel/blue-tongue-video-faq/


----------



## tallyho! (6 August 2012)

Sorry fburton, that went completely over my head...


----------



## RuthM (6 August 2012)

fburton said:



			I believe the blue tongue has since been retracted.
		
Click to expand...

^^ if it hadn't it'd have dropped off! I can't believe I'm about to say this but... I think the blue tongue ended up a bit of a red herring that offered wiggle room to a slippery eel!


----------



## Marydoll (6 August 2012)

perfect11s said:



			I think well I hope BooBoos is just bored  and hence the devils advocate posts ??Im sure anyone who sees horse riding as a partnership and wants to try and work with horses rather than
dominate and force them to do things  for you,
We had the  answers in god knows what BC from a greek called xeophon and since then Mongs have come up with gadgets and short cuts to train horses   draw reins and alsorts of other ***** to force a horse into what we think we want  ...
Anything forced and misundestood can never be beautifull- Xenophon 400BC..
		
Click to expand...

While what you say may be correct, You let yourself down using your derogatory descriptive terms, please dont use them in reference to my post


----------



## KellyJoArnold (6 August 2012)

I'd like to say, I didn't intend for this to become a debate.. but a good one its become! Tehehe.


----------



## Booboos (6 August 2012)

I shall do my best to reply to all the ideas raised, apologies if I miss any points, it's getting complicated! (btw I am never bored by a lively intellectual debate! Nothing better than intelligent people exchanging views! Nor do I see intellectual disagreement as a personal slur).

1. The liberal position certainly has it's opposite. The debate is enshrined in the writings of philosopher H.L.A. Hart (on the liberal side, developing the views of J.S. Mill) versus Lord Devlin (High Court Justice). Devlin's argument is that no man is an island and the distinction between private and public sphere on which the liberal case rests is false. He argues for social cohesiveness through moral uniformity. His views are also still evident in English law in the prohibitions against bestiality and incest (essentially harmless but disgusting activities). The views I try to defend are very much on the liberal side, but of course, counter-arguments exist.

2. Horses cannot consent. Consent has three requirements: rationality, information and choice. As such only rational adult humans can consent, and other groups, e.g. children, animals, the severely mentally disabled cannot consent. We (rational adults) make decisions on behalf of these groups sometimes based on their interests (mainly the case with children) sometimes based on a mix of our interests limited by welfare considerations (mainly the case with animals which we eat, use, work with, take pleasure from, etc.).

3. I think it is indeed correct that if any rider does not comply with the rules then he/she should be penalised. However, I see a number of problems here. The FEI guidelines are vague. They do NOT say that the positions in the diagrams are the ONLY acceptable positions. They seem to allow for extreme flexion if it's not achieved through force and not held for more than 10 minutes. That is my interpretation of them but I could well be wrong. The reason I suspect I am not wrong is that the Olympics is being stewarded by very experienced people with a lot of integrity like Jenny Lorriston Clarke, who have not seen fit to raise any violation of the rules. Some threads on HHO lately seem to suggest by implication that the stewards are either idiots, incompetents or corrupt - that is just rude. Some threads also make bizarre points, e.g. why didn't the jury penalize Cornelissen when she was in rollkur before entering the ring? 

4. If the question is "Is rollkur effective in producing winning horses?" then the success at international level of rollkur riders is appropriate proof, no scientific study is needed. The type of proof appropriate to each case is related to the kind of question one asks. If the question is "Is rollkur harmful to horses to the extent that it should be banned on welfare reasons?" then "I can see it in the horse's eyes" or "I have a gut feeling it is", is not sufficient proof. While the experience of pain is to an extent subjective there are certainly physical markers of pain such as elevated heart rate, changes in respiratory rate, sweating, etc. Given the claims of those who worry about rollkur (e.g. horses cannot breathe, they cannot see, they have deformed ligaments, inappropriate muscle development, bony growths), there is plenty there to messure in an objective manner with simple diagnostic and post-mortem techniques.


----------



## camilla4 (6 August 2012)

Actually, Booboos, I would have to take issue with that last point.  The success at top level of horses trained with Rollkur is not PROOF of it's effectiveness, merely evidence that could be refuted.  There is no way of knowing that these horses would not perform as well, or better, if trained without this system!


----------



## JFTDWS (6 August 2012)

Booboos said:



			4. If the question is *"Is rollkur effective in producing winning horses?"* then the success at international level of rollkur riders is appropriate proof, no scientific study is needed. 

The type of proof appropriate to each case is related to the kind of question one asks. If the question is "Is rollkur harmful to horses to the extent that it should be banned on welfare reasons?" then "I can see it in the horse's eyes" or "I have a gut feeling it is", is not sufficient proof.
		
Click to expand...

In blue, utterly untrue.  That would be the same as giving holographic discs to 25% of the olympic horses and saying that those holographic discs are proven to be effective in the producing of Olympic level horses.  Complete nonsense - it's entirely possible to train a successful GP horse without rollkur, and there is no evidence at present that rollkur will improve the horse's success, relative to a non-rollkur trained animal of similar level, schooling and breeding.  

Just because rollkur coexiests with success in some horses is NOT, and never will be, proof of causation.


With regard to your latter assertion, "I can see it in his eyes", is a pretty blinkered way of looking at things.  There is a lot more in non-pathological behavioural observation than fluffy platitudes of that sort.  Body language can tell a trained individual a great deal about whether an activity is a welfare concern - tail swishing, ears flat back etc - can be measured empirically and are valid scientific observations.


----------



## tallyho! (6 August 2012)

Your last point about rollkur is effective in producing winning horses is subject to judging from human opinion.


----------



## RuthM (6 August 2012)

If the question is "Is rollkur effective in producing winning horses?" then the success at international level of rollkur riders is appropriate proof, no scientific study is needed.
		
Click to expand...

Poppycock!! This is the kind of twaddle faith healers rely on! If five out of ten top sprinters wore red pants I presume you'd believe it proven that red pants make you run faster!

Edit - typed too fast 1st time!


----------



## Jesstickle (6 August 2012)

camilla4 said:



			Actually, Booboos, I would have to take issue with that last point.  The success at top level of horses trained with Rollkur is not PROOF of it's effectiveness, merely evidence that could be refuted.  There is no way of knowing that these horses would not perform as well, or better, if trained without this system!
		
Click to expand...

I'm afraid I have to agree.To you the type of evidence depends on the question. To a scientist the type of evidence has to be the same for all questions. The study must contain a control group, the study will ideally be blinded, the result should be reproducible, data must be analysed to confirm any finding is significant, the reporter should report all results not cherry pick data.

We don't know if these horses win because of rollkur, despite rollkur, whether the use of rollkur relies on other things as well. We don't know how many horses trained with the technique don't win because we never hear of them,  nor do we know how many horses break down and in a study involving animals it is _very _ important to know the fate of all the animals that entered the programme, the study has no control group as comparison to other riders is no help due to complexity of the study and the number of variable factors. 

I still don't understand the logic that one side may function on conjecture alone whilst the other must provide carefully collected evidence which is methodologically sound and directly related to the question in hand. Perhaps I am too much of scientist but I just do not see the logic here   Told you I was no philosopher


----------



## Booboos (6 August 2012)

Of course I understand the difference between coincidence and causality. To suggest that all riders who wear red underwear produce winning horses because of it is likely to be coincidence as there is no reasonable connection between red underwear and performance. To suggest that a training system that produces winning horses does so because of the training system is causality because of the nature of the two things that are connected: a system for winning and a result of wins.

I never said that either all horses that are trained in rollkur will win, nor that only the horses that are trained in rollkur will win. Just that the success of some of the horses that are trained in this system is sufficient reason for anyone who wants to take up this system. The same holds for other successful systems.


----------



## JFTDWS (6 August 2012)

That might be enough evidence for you, booboos.  For the rest of us who believe in scientific rigour and proof of causality (as opposed to supposition of causality on the strength of association), it simply will not do.


----------



## Booboos (6 August 2012)

jesstickle said:



			I'm afraid I have to agree.To you the type of evidence depends on the question. To a scientist the type of evidence has to be the same for all questions. The study must contain a control group, the study will ideally be blinded, the result should be reproducible, data must be analysed to confirm any finding is significant, the reporter should report all results not cherry pick data.

We don't know if these horses win because of rollkur, despite rollkur, whether the use of rollkur relies on other things as well. We don't know how many horses trained with the technique don't win because we never hear of them,  nor do we know how many horses break down and in a study involving animals it is _very _ important to know the fate of all the animals that entered the programme, the study has no control group as comparison to other riders is no help due to complexity of the study and the number of variable factors. 

I still don't understand the logic that one side may function on conjecture alone whilst the other must provide carefully collected evidence which is methodologically sound and directly related to the question in hand. Perhaps I am too much of scientist but I just do not see the logic here   Told you I was no philosopher  

Click to expand...

What you cite as evidence is methodology (control groups, double blind) and checks on the methodology (whether results can be reproduced under similar conditions, whether all results have been correctly reported, absence of bias) not evidence. While the methodology of RTCs is appropriate for many scientific questions, it is not appropriate for all of them (e.g. consider an experiment on the origins of the universe, it is unlikely to need a control group).

I completely agree that we do not know for certain whether horses win because of rollkur or other methods of training. I suspect there is no one answer and that different methods work with different horses and different riders. 

Because the two claims are different. The type of evidence required to ban a practice is different from that required for doing it purely on grounds of freedom. There are three types of evidence required here:
- to ban rollkur one needs evidence to show that it is harmful so as to defeat the presumption of freedom of the riders to do as they please with their horses.
- to defend rollkur one needs to point at the lack of evidence against it. This still leaves the point below undecided.
- to chose rollkur one needs evidence in favor of it. At this level there is some, possibly suspect, evidence of its success, but I am not seeking to convince anyone to take up rollkur, so I don't particularly care whether it works or not. Some people wave around carrot sticks, others go to animal communicators, that all sounds rubbish to me, but they are free to do so.


----------



## camilla4 (6 August 2012)

Booboos said:



			Of
I never said that either all horses that are trained in rollkur will win, nor that only the horses that are trained in rollkur will win. QUOTE]

No - but you did say this:  " If the question is "Is rollkur effective in producing winning horses?" then the success at international level of rollkur riders is appropriate proof" - I think that the latter posts have been maintaining that it is absolutely not proof!!!
		
Click to expand...


----------



## JFTDWS (6 August 2012)

Booboos said:



			What you cite as evidence is methodology (control groups, double blind) and checks on the methodology (whether results can be reproduced under similar conditions, whether all results have been correctly reported, absence of bias) not evidence. While the methodology of RTCs is appropriate for many scientific questions, it is not appropriate for all of them (e.g. consider an experiment on the origins of the universe, it is unlikely to need a control group).
		
Click to expand...

On a scientific point, I think it's important to realise and accept that the evidence is a product of the methodology - and to have good quality evidence, you _ need_ to have robust methodology.

The universe analogy is completely irrelevant to this form of research - if it were possible to model the start of the universe to investigate it, one would definitely require a control experiment for comparison.  The fact that it is omitted due to impossibility in that instance has no relevance to its necessity in studies where it is possible.


----------



## Jesstickle (6 August 2012)

so what about fburtons question around zoophilia for example? Clearly the majority decided this wasn't ok and it is illegal in the UK. The animal can't be consenting by your own definitions (or rather by the ones you use which I'm sure are official ones), just like the horse in rollkur, and in many instances there will be no physical signs of harm, like in rollkur.  So does that mean the law is wrong and people's freedoms mean they should be allowed to bugger their dog? 

Where do you draw the line. What about people exposing themselves to children (god forbid). If to all intents and purpose the child seems fine is this also ok?  

Surely this isn't the way our society functions? Rules and laws are put in place by those we choose to be in charge of such things and they use their judgement. Sometimes they also gather the best evidence which is available to them or they commission their own as well. Often the rules are influenced heavily by public opinion and actions. After all, isn't that the great thing about living in a reasonably democratic country?

The FEI are the rule makers, they either will or won't be influenced by public opinion. That is up to them really.They can choose to care about public opinion or they can choose to care about scientific evidence. I don't see why people shouldn't lobby them. 

Perhaps I am missing something vital. I am waaay out of my depth on the philosophy side of things and it's very interesting.


----------



## RuthM (6 August 2012)

Booboo, you've produced a classic example of failing to understand Occam's law!


----------



## BeesKnees (6 August 2012)

Surely the point of philosophy is that that there isn't one absolute 'right' moral position, despite what Booboos seems to suggest. 

Some believe in the 'might is right' argument and indeed our political system is based on that 'majority rules' idea. Our legal / ethical beliefs are not however. The majority in this country when polled say they believe in capital punishment. We haven't as yet brought back hanging however. In that case another philosophical position has taken precedence.

Others believe that it is the act itself that should be 'good', rather than just looking at the consequences of the act. So this is where the hedonistic ideal of 'I can do it if it doesnt hurt others' falls down. Most of us would agree that looking at and enjoying pedophilia or 'snuff' videos is an immoral and unethical act, even if you didn't take any part in the 'doing'.  You can argue the viewer may not be responsible directly for the suffering caused, and thus has the right to enjoy it. As a society however we generally agree that to enjoy it is not something we can condone.

The point of my rambling is that you can find a philosophical argument to back up any moral position you wish to take! But at some point surely some common sense and ideas of common decency also have to apply?


----------



## Fidgety (6 August 2012)

Booboos said:



			2. *Horses cannot consent*. Consent has three requirements: rationality, information and choice. As such only rational adult humans can consent, *and other groups, e.g. children, animals, the severely mentally disabled cannot consent*. *We (rational adults) make decisions on behalf of these groups* sometimes based on their interests (mainly the case with children) sometimes based on a mix of our interests *limited by welfare considerations* (mainly the case with animals which we eat, use, work with, take pleasure from, etc.).
		
Click to expand...

And the bits highlighted are precisely _why_ it is down to _us_ as riders, owners and bystanders to put the welfare of the horse first each and every time.

Sorry, but on point 4 I agree with everybody else on this subject.  Anyway, hopefully time (ie the next 24hrs) will prove - without 'scientific study' as to just how successful 'at international level' rollkur is in producing winners. 

There was a time when smoking was regarding as giving heath benefits...


----------



## Jesstickle (6 August 2012)

JFTD said:



			On a scientific point, I think it's important to realise and accept that the evidence is a product of the methodology - and to have good quality evidence, you _ need_ to have robust methodology.
		
Click to expand...

That's what I meant really. To a scientist it isn't evidence if it wasn't produced with solid methodology. Ever. I think most scientists are pretty black and white on that one. 

The conversations at my work are so hopeless. Someone will say did you see x in the paper and then instantly 10 people start asking questions about how the data was produced.  Finally we'll convince ourselves that it is either probably a sound conclusion or that it isn't and then we'll start all over again with the next headline. Today it was something in the Independent about whether diesel cars work out better value in the end or not. There was a good 15 minute enquiry about how whatcar did the evaluation. 

That or we talk about faeces. It's about a 50/50 split


----------



## tallyho! (6 August 2012)

Damn, I wish I could quote but new tablet mode will not let me!

I see where booboos is coming from... I think. I still disagree with her trying to defend something that trainers as far back as Xenophon have condemned the forceful nature of training horses and unnatural methods by using the lack of concrete evidence. To be fair, trying to get evidence would be cruel as people already know it will harm the subject horses. They only have horses who are already in training to work with. Not enough to significantly power a trial.

Rollkur produces something which looks as if it is correct. It is not as we can see the horse is disconnected and produces a false outline. The judges are awarding marks for this movement above correctly moving horses therefore perpetuating the need to use rollkur to achieve winning marks. As GG said much earlier it is the judges, the stewards, the system that is failing these horses. Change will come. It will not need a piece of paper with some graphic results for it to begin. It is already beginning.


----------



## Booboos (7 August 2012)

JFTD said:



			The universe analogy is completely irrelevant to this form of research - if it were possible to model the start of the universe to investigate it, one would definitely require a control experiment for comparison.  The fact that it is omitted due to impossibility in that instance has no relevance to its necessity in studies where it is possible.
		
Click to expand...

My understanding of this is very minimal but I think one of the aims of the Large Hadron Collider is to model the start of the universe! 

jesstickle: bestiality (provided it's carried out with some welfare considerations) is harmless so according to the liberal position it should be decriminalised. There is no need for the animal to consent (as this is impossible), just not to be harmed and as animals engage in quite a lot of sex harmlessly it should be perfectly possible to do the same with humans...None of this means I wish to engage in bestiality!!!  Exactly like rollkur I leave others to it!

Bees-Knees: no that is absolutely not the point of philosophy. There is a philosophical position called moral relativism which claims that in moral matters there is no right and wrong (in the same way in which there is no right and wrong in matters of taste; you can like Marmite, I can hate it and neither of us is objectively right or wrong, it's a matter of personal taste). However this position suffers from serious problems. Briefly if there is no moral right and wrong anything goes, so the murder of innocents is as right as devoting your life to charity; tolerance is impossible because the claim "tolerance should be promoted" is neither right or wrong; and finally global versions of relativism are self-defeating as the claim "relativism is true" is neither right nor wrong. Large number of philosophers (the majority?) are moral objectivists, i.e. they argue that there is such a thing as moral proof, but this is perfectly compatible with also thinking that the truth is very difficult to find and the best way to go about it is to encourage the exchange of ideas and debate.

I've been thinking about this overnight so here's another example about the connection between hypotheses and outcomes: Suppose I have the following two states of affairs:
A. My horse is tense, won't engage or move forward freely
B. My bum has a rash

then the following two events occur:

C. I change my saddle
D. I change my underwear to cotton only

then the following two events are observed:

E. My horse is less tense, moves forward more freely and is more willing to engage his back
F. My rash disappears

There is a rational connection between events A, C and E and between events B, D and F such that it is possible (via Occam's raisor, btw) to link these events causally. It is reasonable to assume a causal link in this way, although this assumption is not conclusive and it is defeasible.

However it is much more reasonable than assuming a connection this way:
My horse is tense, I change my knickers and my horse is less tense as a result OR
My bum has a rash, I change my saddle and my rash disappears.
(these connections are similar to the results of homeopathy, i.e. coincidental)

This connection is bordering on nonsensical:
My horse is tense, I change my saddle, my rash disappears
My bum has a rash, I change my knickers, my horse engages his back
(this reasoning is similar to the explanation of homeopathy, i.e. gobbledigook)


----------



## camilla4 (7 August 2012)

Booboos said:



			There is a rational connection between events A, C and E and between events B, D and F such that it is possible (via Occam's raisor, btw) to link these events causally. It is reasonable to assume a causal link in this way, although this assumption is not conclusive and it is defeasible.

However it is much more reasonable than assuming a connection this way:
My horse is tense, I change my knickers and my horse is less tense as a result OR
My bum has a rash, I change my saddle and my rash disappears.
(these connections are similar to the results of homeopathy, i.e. coincidental)

This connection is bordering on nonsensical:
My horse is tense, I change my saddle, my rash disappears
My bum has a rash, I change my knickers, my horse engages his back
(this reasoning is similar to the explanation of homeopathy, i.e. gobbledigook)
		
Click to expand...

I absolutely agree with this, Booboos, but a rational connection is not the same as proof.  It merely allows the formation of a hypothesis which can then be tested.


----------



## JFTDWS (7 August 2012)

Re the lhc, not my field but as far as I am aware their experiments do not (cannot) 'model' the start of the universe - whatever the press might claim. Their experiments inform physical and mathematical models (as in abstract descriptions based on maths and physical principles) of the start of the universe.

The idea of modelling in the conext discussed previously is that it is a direct and literal model of an event occurring - e.g. Causative agent 'a' causes condition 'b'.


----------



## -Sj- (7 August 2012)

For all reader unsure of what rollkur is, here is a videa of Patrik Kittel warming up...........

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8hIXGiV4N4k

Urgh


----------



## tallyho! (7 August 2012)

The dressage horses haven't been very connected or through this morning.... very on the forehand, no self-carriage. I wonder why....? Don't horses need their necks to balance?


----------



## JFTDWS (7 August 2012)




----------



## misterjinglejay (7 August 2012)

JFTD said:











Click to expand...

Love it - very clever


----------



## MerrySherryRider (7 August 2012)

JFTD said:











Click to expand...

Very funny !

Was just wondering if someone is videoing PK warming up this morning? Perhaps the stewards will be more sharp eyed in trying to protect PK's privacy from filming. 
The BBC and olympic organisers seem to be doing a good job in ignoring the furore about the abuse.


----------



## Pale Rider (7 August 2012)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O5oh4cjkLZk&feature=youtube_gdata_player


----------



## Jesstickle (7 August 2012)

Booboos said:



			jesstickle: bestiality (provided it's carried out with some welfare considerations) is harmless so according to the liberal position it should be decriminalised. There is no need for the animal to consent (as this is impossible), just not to be harmed and as animals engage in quite a lot of sex harmlessly it should be perfectly possible to do the same with humans...None of this means I wish to engage in bestiality!!!  Exactly like rollkur I leave others to it!
		
Click to expand...

Thanks for that   What other positions can you take? Obviously you can be liberal, what would the others be called? It's interesting stuff this philosophy malarky


----------



## JFTDWS (7 August 2012)

It was at this point, Jess, I realised that booboos opinion is so wildly different from mine because I'm not a liberal 

Not 100% sure what I am, but I am no liberal


----------



## Marydoll (7 August 2012)

JFTD said:











Click to expand...

This is great


----------



## Vizslak (7 August 2012)

jesstickle said:



			Thanks for that   What other positions can you take?
		
Click to expand...

Sorry, I am a child.......but........ROFPMSL!


----------



## tallyho! (7 August 2012)

Pale Rider said:



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O5oh4cjkLZk&feature=youtube_gdata_player

Click to expand...

thanks PR!


----------



## BeesKnees (7 August 2012)

Booboos said:



			jesstickle: bestiality (provided it's carried out with some welfare considerations) is harmless so according to the liberal position it should be decriminalised. There is no need for the animal to consent (as this is impossible), just not to be harmed and as animals engage in quite a lot of sex harmlessly it should be perfectly possible to do the same with humans...None of this means I wish to engage in bestiality!!!  Exactly like rollkur I leave others to it!
		
Click to expand...

But there aren't you taking a point of moral relativism?? 

I think you misunderstood my post (it was rambly!) I'm not am exponent of moral relativism at all. My point was that there are different positions regarding morality within philosophy i.e utilitarianism, consequentialism, deontology........I know very little about it, but was merely pointing out that you appeared to be suggesting there was one way to look at right and wrong - by ascertaining if any harm has been done and if consent has been given. But this seems a rather over-simplistic explanation?

I may just be misunderstanding the whole thing


----------



## BeesKnees (7 August 2012)

To get back to Rollkur specifically......

Whilst we may argue about whether you can prove it is harmful or not, I would like to be given some hard evidence, or even at least some bio-mechanically convincing argument, as to HOW exactly hyperflexion is beneficial? HOW does it get a horse to bring it's hocks underneath it, as is suggested by those who defend the practice? 

My understanding is that the practice of putting a horse's head in a hyper-flexed position first became noticed around the time when Nicole Uphoff was riding Rembrandt?? 

As far as I reacall the reasoning for it was two-fold:
1. Rembrandt was very hot and would explode easily, and so the flexed position was a method of control (which kind of argue against proponents saying it isn't used to dominate the horse....)
2. The flexed position put the horse on the forehand, and it was reasoned that by using this in the warm-up, once you brought the horse's head up just before coming into the ring, by magic the weight would transfer to the back end during the actual test.

So the argument was very much that it WAS about putting a horse on its forehand (even if the logic was a bit suspect).

Yet now, proponents argue it puts the horse on its hocks with the back tucking under???

So which is it? And where is the evidence?


----------



## tallyho! (7 August 2012)

PK just got third.... Come on Carl Hester!!!! Blow him out of the water!!!


----------



## Vizslak (7 August 2012)

it was a far better test than he has shown here on previous days, I still maintain the horse is woefully weak behind. I do wonder if the fact he darent, after all the publicity, work the horse in Rollkur in warm ups and training this week has infact improved the horses way of going today. An unscientific assumption of course...but in my eyes entirely possible.


----------



## Jesstickle (7 August 2012)

Vizslak said:



			Sorry, I am a child.......but........ROFPMSL!
		
Click to expand...

How rude


----------



## Fidgety (7 August 2012)

Vizslak said:



			it was a far better test than he has shown here on previous days, I still maintain the horse is woefully weak behind. I do wonder if the fact he darent, after all the publicity, work the horse in Rollkur in warm ups and training this week has infact improved the horses way of going today. An unscientific assumption of course...but in my eyes entirely possible.
		
Click to expand...

I have to say that at the beginning of the test it did look like he was making a concerted effort to work the horse's outline more forwards (I even hoped that the outcry over the last few days had had this effect) but then it almost seemed like the horse was either unsure of working like that, or possibly incapable of sustaining it, the further on into the test it went.


----------



## PolarSkye (7 August 2012)

Vizslak said:



			it was a far better test than he has shown here on previous days, I still maintain the horse is woefully weak behind. I do wonder if the fact he darent, after all the publicity, work the horse in Rollkur in warm ups and training this week has infact improved the horses way of going today. An unscientific assumption of course...but in my eyes entirely possible.
		
Click to expand...

But it wasn't, was it . . . a far better test I mean.  The horse got tired quickly, was weak behind and curled up more and more BTV the longer the test went on (possibly seeking its "comfort" zone - how sad is that?).

One can't improve a horse's way of going overnight . . . to move properly and freely that horse needs to be taken back to basics, taught to carry itself properly, engage its back end, use its stomach/back muscles and be happy to seek a relaxed and sympathetic contact.  That will take many months.

P


----------



## Vizslak (7 August 2012)

exactly, it dropped BTV on the more testing movements, those that required a lot of strength behind and it definately got tired towards the end of the test which made it drop BTV and go on forehand.


----------



## Kittykins (7 August 2012)

Booboos said:



			4. If the question is "Is rollkur effective in producing winning horses?" then the success at international level of rollkur riders is appropriate proof, no scientific study is needed. The type of proof appropriate to each case is related to the kind of question one asks.
		
Click to expand...

At a risk of being skewered somewhat, I'm going to agree with Booboos here. Seeing as Kittell is currently in third place, it seems that Rollkur is indeed effective in producing winning horses. I also agree that the type of proof required is related to the question asked. It's true, for example, that I love my daughter - but you'd be hard pressed to definitively prove that scientifically. To find out whether it was true you could a) take my word for it (but I could be lying) or b) watch me interact with her. b) would give you the answer, but wouldn't conform to scientific methodology as there could be no control experiment. 

So to get back to Kittel, if the question is: 'Is rollkur effective at producing winning horses' and the evidence is that Kittel is currently lying third, then the answer seems to be 'yes'. 

Which is a different question to "SHOULD rollkur be effective at producing winning horses?" 



Booboos said:



			In a free society people should have the freedom to do as they please with themselves and with consenting others. The only limit to such freedom is where it affects others, and the effect has to be significant, e.g. substantial harm. For liberals, as long as choice is free, individuals can do whatever they like to themselves, i.e. expose themselves to risk (e.g. riding), expose themselves to harm (e.g. S&M) or even extreme and irreversible harm (e.g. suicide). They cannot, however, cause harm to non-consenting others, so my liberty does not extend to harming you. Harm is interpreted as substantial physical or emotional harm and not mere offence or disgust. This reasoning has been used in the UK to de-criminalise prostitution and homosexuality, which is why I referred to these kinds of examples.

If one wishes to restrict an activity one needs to prove that it is harmful. There is no evidence whatsoever that rollkur is harmful other than people's upset feelings, despite the fact that this question has been in the air for a while and a number of vets have considered it. Therefore there are no grounds to restrict the practice of rollkur.
		
Click to expand...

I agree with this, but if we decide that society should not be constrained by laws other than those which prohibit harm to unconsenting beings (as, incidentally, I think we should), then responsibility for good conduct is passed from the law courts to the citizenry. In this instance, if the majority of knowledgeable riders agree that rollkur is thought to be a less effective way of training a horse for whatever reason (including the risk of harm) then it shouldn't be rewarded by high marks in dressage tests. Et voila, problem would be solved.


----------



## camilla4 (7 August 2012)

Kittykins said:



			At a risk of being skewered somewhat, I'm going to agree with Booboos here. Seeing as Kittell is currently in third place, it seems that Rollkur is indeed effective in producing winning horses. I also agree that the type of proof required is related to the question asked. It's true, for example, that I love my daughter - but you'd be hard pressed to definitively prove that scientifically. To find out whether it was true you could a) take my word for it (but I could be lying) or b) watch me interact with her. b) would give you the answer, but wouldn't conform to scientific methodology as there could be no control experiment. 

Kittykins - I did answer this earlier and Booboos' assertion is just plain wrong.  Much of what she says is accurate, well-reasoned and intelligent but this is just wrong!  It is absolutely NOT proof - at best it is evidence that could be refuted.  There is no way of knowing how well Scandic, for example, would perform without training using Rollkur- it is perfectly possible that he would perform even better with a different training method!
		
Click to expand...


----------



## JFTDWS (7 August 2012)

Kittykins said:



			At a risk of being skewered somewhat, I'm going to agree with Booboos here. Seeing as Kittell is currently in third place, it seems that Rollkur is indeed effective in producing winning horses. I also agree that the type of proof required is related to the question asked. 

It's true, for example, that I love my daughter - but you'd be hard pressed to definitively prove that scientifically. To find out whether it was true you could a) take my word for it (but I could be lying) or b) watch me interact with her. b) would give you the answer, but wouldn't conform to scientific methodology as there could be no control experiment.
		
Click to expand...

The thing is, you're grasping an innately non-scientific statements (non-testable, non-empirical) to explain why an innately scientific (testable, empirical) statement should not need actual proof.  You're right - proof and evidence DOES depend on the type of question.  But the question has to be analogous to the type of evidence that supports it.  It would be equally flawed for me to say that I have empirical proof that I love my daughter, because love is an unempirical, abstract concept.  (fwiw, I don't have a daughter!)

The fact that PK is in third is irrelevant.  Would the horse have been in 1st if trained without rolllkur?  Or in last?  The Canadian's horse, which is down the board somewhat was also apparently trained by PK and therefore likely to have been rollkured too.  Surely that's a salient point in your anecdotal evidence?

Fuego hasn't, I'm sure, been rollkured.  His score is higher than PKs.  Surely that means that rollkur is less successful than non-rollkur-based classical training, by your logic?


----------



## Kittykins (7 August 2012)

camilla4 said:



			Kittykins - I did answer this earlier and Booboos' assertion is just plain wrong.  Much of what she says is accurate, well-reasoned and intelligent but this is just wrong!  It is absolutely NOT proof - at best it is evidence that could be refuted.  There is no way of knowing how well Scandic, for example, would perform without training using Rollkur- it is perfectly possible that he would perform even better with a different training method!
		
Click to expand...




			
				JFTD said:
			
		


			The fact that PK is in third is irrelevant. Would the horse have been in 1st if trained without rolllkur? Or in last? The Canadian's horse, which is down the board somewhat was also apparently trained by PK and therefore likely to have been rollkured too. Surely that's a salient point in your anecdotal evidence?
		
Click to expand...

But that's a different question. Does rollkur produce good results? Yes. Can other methods produce good results too? Also yes. Are other methods preferable to rollkur for whatever reason? _That's_ a matter of opinion, although I would say yes, and I guess that most other people would too. 


Which is my point. Booboos is not wrong, but if the equestrian fraternity doesn't like rollkur, it's up to judges not to reward it*. If they don't, then it's unsurprising if people use it. 

*The fact that it's been banned and is _still_ being rewarded is yet another issue!


----------



## Vizslak (7 August 2012)

also dressage scoring is subjective, so that throws a right spanner in the works. The evidence would be less circumstantial if dressage as a sport was less subjective, like SJ for example, but this is not the case. We have no way of knowing if the horse would not perform a lot better if not rollkur trained (which I strongly suspect would be the case)


----------



## tallyho! (7 August 2012)

And that is why so many people are disenchanted with dressage and people new to it are so confused!

Where's my spectacles.....


----------



## tallyho! (7 August 2012)

Did anyone else forget to breathe during CH's performance??? Magical!!!!


----------



## _GG_ (7 August 2012)

Don't be too quick to use PK's being in third as part of any debate in favour of the argument, "does rollkur work"...as he is going further and further down the rankings!


----------



## Kittykins (7 August 2012)

On the other hand, the commentary was rapturous over Anky von Whatsernamey, and the judges seemed to like her too. 

Not that I'm advocating it, just sayin'


----------



## _GG_ (7 August 2012)

Kittykins said:



			On the other hand, the commentary was rapturous over Anky von Whatsernamey, and the judges seemed to like her too. 

Not that I'm advocating it, just sayin'
		
Click to expand...

How could the commentators not be rapturous over a three time Olympic Gold Medalist without getting into the whole debate. They are commentating to a much wider audience than just the horse world. 

As for the judges, no, I don't think they liked what they saw. Her test was almost faultless in its execution. As the untrained eyes of my other half said...it looked much better than the tests in the first group this morning...but she got a 74 and Carl Hester got an 80.

The judges are clearly marking down where they are seeing incorrectness and good on them for that!


----------



## JFTDWS (7 August 2012)

Kittykins said:



			But that's a different question. Does rollkur produce good results? Yes. Can other methods produce good results too? Also yes. Are other methods preferable to rollkur for whatever reason? _That's_ a matter of opinion, although I would say yes, and I guess that most other people would too.
		
Click to expand...

Not at all, you're misrepresenting the nature of the question - because it's not as simple as one method vs another - there's a great deal of cross over and a rider who rollkurs also trains by other methods too - so there is not any reason to attribute the success to the rollkur - the rollkur could equally be detrimental to the success given that the horse also undergoes non-rollkur training.

I really don't get how people are struggling to comprehend this.


----------



## Nightmare before Christmas (7 August 2012)

I am not saying I agree with rolkur....but have you ever thought about dressage as a whole? They get horses to move limbs beyond normal flexion, build muscles they dont normally build and put alot of strain on tendons and ligaments...

Should we just ban dressage? 

People are so obsessed with rolkur they seem to ignore what the rest of the horse is doing.

I notice as I am currently doing an equine sports science degree which looks into this. I am not saying what I think I am just saying maybe you should look at the rest of the horse and the strain and hyperflexion there and not just with the neck...


----------



## JFTDWS (7 August 2012)

For me, the ultimate dressage is practiced by the SRS etc.  Their horses often have long, productive lives, working at high school levels into late teens and twenties.  Same with many of Sylvia Loch's schoolmasters and similar.  I feel that if dressage itself were truly harmful, it is unlikely so many of them would working for so long.


----------



## tristar (7 August 2012)

the whole point about  good dressage,is that it enables the horse to perform to its maximum with the minimum of effort, giving a working horse longevity and even bringing horses back into work who have articular  and muscle probs which could arise from working incorrectly previously.
i think sylvia loch's  horse palomo worked till he was about 24 giving lessons at a high level.


----------



## tallyho! (7 August 2012)

badgermyers said:



			I am not saying I agree with rolkur....but have you ever thought about dressage as a whole? They get horses to move limbs beyond normal flexion, build muscles they dont normally build and put alot of strain on tendons and ligaments...

Should we just ban dressage? 

People are so obsessed with rolkur they seem to ignore what the rest of the horse is doing.

I notice as I am currently doing an equine sports science degree which looks into this. I am not saying what I think I am just saying maybe you should look at the rest of the horse and the strain and hyperflexion there and not just with the neck...
		
Click to expand...

Not sure you can say dressage is not natural. Forced positions like rollkur are not natural and should be banned which they are.

See this horse moving naturally, with collection and extension. The JOY has certainly been lacking in dressage but I saw JOY in movement today in Carl Hesters horse and JOY in Fuego.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zq06bmJLt-U&feature=pyv&ad=10609930901&kw=dressage

The key is to capture it and ask the horse to use his body when we want to. That is what dressage is. Sadly, in top dressage, all we see are broken necked horses that can't move as nature intended. That is why it looks so ugly.

We should not stop doing dressage, we should start being true to it.


----------



## Nightmare before Christmas (7 August 2012)

tallyho! said:



			Not sure you can say dressage is not natural. Forced positions like rollkur are not natural and should be banned which they are.

See this horse moving naturally, with collection and extension. The JOY has certainly been lacking in dressage but I saw JOY in movement today in Carl Hesters horse and JOY in Fuego.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zq06bmJLt-U&feature=pyv&ad=10609930901&kw=dressage

The key is to capture it and ask the horse to use his body when we want to. That is what dressage is. Sadly, in top dressage, all we see are broken necked horses that can't move as nature intended. That is why it looks so ugly.

We should not stop doing dressage, we should start being true to it.
		
Click to expand...

Yes natural horses show extension and collection but when do you see their legs come up as high as they do in front in nature? When do you see horses piaffe in the wild with the elevation they do in dressage?

I like dressage but I think if you moan about hyperflexion of the neck you should probs moan about hyperflexion of the other joints too.....


----------



## JFTDWS (7 August 2012)

badgermyers said:



			Yes natural horses show extension and collection but when do you see their legs come up as high as they do in front in nature? When do you see horses piaffe in the wild with the elevation they do in dressage?

I like dressage but I think if you moan about hyperflexion of the neck you should probs moan about hyperflexion of the other joints too.....
		
Click to expand...

If they were forced, physically, to exhibit those ranges of motion, I  imagine people would be moaning about them.  It's completely different to breed expressive or excessive movement into a horse's paces and school it to exhibit those paces in the ring, to physically forcing the neck to hyperflex by use of curb pressure and extreme force.


----------



## Nightmare before Christmas (7 August 2012)

JFTD said:



			If they were forced, physically, to exhibit those ranges of motion, I  imagine people would be moaning about them.  It's completely different to breed expressive or excessive movement into a horse's paces and school it to exhibit those paces in the ring, to physically forcing the neck to hyperflex by use of curb pressure and extreme force.
		
Click to expand...

They are trained to move that way, some is natural yeah but the rest is trained. They dont move that way is the field is all I am saying. I think dressage is one of those sports that is as it is


----------



## tallyho! (7 August 2012)

I am not convinced Totilas was trained to lift his legs so high...

A horse either HAS it, or he HAS NOT.

Those that have excel in dressage. A bog standard hacking pony may not.


----------



## I love my Spanish horse (7 August 2012)

badgermyers said:



			They are trained to move that way, some is natural yeah but the rest is trained. They dont move that way is the field is all I am saying. I think dressage is one of those sports that is as it is
		
Click to expand...

You havent seen my horse loose then clearly, he's the same breed as fuego and as such finds collection the easiest thing in the world. He thinks nothing of doing piaffe/ passage in the field, tied up being given a bath (rather frustratingly!) or under saddle whenever he gets tense I challenge anyone to come and watch him and say he's not doing it naturally, or is being in any way forced


----------



## Nightmare before Christmas (7 August 2012)

Natwood said:



			You havent seen my horse loose then clearly, he's the same breed as fuego and as such finds collection the easiest thing in the world. He thinks nothing of doing piaffe/ passage in the field, tied up being given a bath (rather frustratingly!) or under saddle whenever he gets tense I challenge anyone to come and watch him and say he's not doing it naturally, or is being in any way forced
		
Click to expand...

In regards to this yes my horses 'dance around' on the spot when they cant move forward or are excited but it doesnt have the same power and elevation as expected from a GP dressage horse. 

Im not saying they are forced or unhappy to do it. Yes they are naturally elevated but not THAT elevated.  I know people who train hight level dressage horses and they do teach the horses to exaggerate their naturally elevated paces to be more expressive. 

All im saying is its not just the strain of rolkur that is put upon the horses body, the movements also cause hyperflexion of the same extent, as with show jumpers and eventers. I dont think you are understanding the context of what im saying. 

All I am saying is all top class sports horses bodies are on the brink of what it can withstand, and not natural. Just the same as rolkur. I dont understand why when people moan about that they dont have an issue with any other part of the horses body?

I have no problem myself, I am not that interested with dressage and find its just a matter of opinion and almost a fashion. I show jump, cant argue with if the fence is up or not!


----------



## Marydoll (7 August 2012)

For me, just because somethings effective doesnt mean its right


----------



## I love my Spanish horse (7 August 2012)

badgermyers said:



			In regards to this yes my horses 'dance around' on the spot when they cant move forward or are excited but it doesnt have the same power and elevation as expected from a GP dressage horse. 

Im not saying they are forced or unhappy to do it. Yes they are naturally elevated but not THAT elevated.  I know people who train hight level dressage horses and they do teach the horses to exaggerate their naturally elevated paces to be more expressive. 

All im saying is its not just the strain of rolkur that is put upon the horses body, the movements also cause hyperflexion of the same extent, as with show jumpers and eventers. I dont think you are understanding the context of what im saying. 

All I am saying is all top class sports horses bodies are on the brink of what it can withstand, and not natural. Just the same as rolkur. I dont understand why when people moan about that they dont have an issue with any other part of the horses body?

I have no problem myself, I am not that interested with dressage and find its just a matter of opinion and almost a fashion. I show jump, cant argue with if the fence is up or not!
		
Click to expand...

I diagree, i think a lot of the naturally expressive horses. Such as Fuego and Rubi find these movements extremly easy, and all it takes is a little training to refine them and do on the riders command. Perhaps some of the german and dutch horses that do not find the advanced movements this easy are the ones that have rolkur inflicted on them in order to short cut, and bring out the expression and elevation in that way. How they think it works i dont know as all i saw was tense and overbent horses. Also mine doesnt just 'dance' as you put it, he can properly sit and do a very correct passage or piaffe worthy of any gp horse, i cant ride it yet as tension is an issue and working on the basics is far more important. But i know that if and when i want to do they advanced work, he has nothing to learn or be taught as it comes so naturally to him, and im sure he's not the only one


----------



## Nightmare before Christmas (7 August 2012)

Natwood said:



			I diagree, i think a lot of the naturally expressive horses. Such as Fuego and Rubi find these movements extremly easy, and all it takes is a little training to refine them and do on the riders command. Perhaps some of the german and dutch horses that do not find the advanced movements this easy are the ones that have rolkur inflicted on them in order to short cut, and bring out the expression and elevation in that way. How they think it works i dont know as all i saw was tense and overbent horses. Also mine doesnt just 'dance' as you put it, he can properly sit and do a very correct passage or piaffe worthy of any gp horse, i cant ride it yet as tension is an issue and working on the basics is far more important. But i know that if and when i want to do they advanced work, he has nothing to learn or be taught as it comes so naturally to him, and im sure he's not the only one
		
Click to expand...

Okay I give up. I am not saying what horses can and cant do and if they are forced or what I am on about the strain and damage done to the ligaments, tendons and tissues being as severe if not more so than rolkur.


----------



## JFTDWS (7 August 2012)

badgermyers said:



			Okay I give up. I am not saying what horses can and cant do and if they are forced or what I am on about the strain and damage done to the ligaments, tendons and tissues being as severe if not more so than rolkur.
		
Click to expand...

Ok but you have to accept that damage will be done to all tissue over time - everything has to stop functioning sometime.  Even "immortalised" cell lines have a life span, on some level.

As some of us mentioned before, the longevity of some of these horses, whilst sound and working at a high level, implies that, done correctly, dressage need not necessarily lead to any more damage that is likely to occur to a horse not working at that level (a hack, hunter, jumper, a brood mare etc).

Take a step back and think about what you're saying, logically.  Horses can incur soft tissue damage in many ways, in most disciplines and in the field.  

I don't personally believe that dressage is a major risk factor in soft tissue damage, when the horse is managed and trained correctly.


----------



## Pale Rider (7 August 2012)

I had a horse who was an old hunter of mine. He was a fantastic character and if he'd been human would have been a comedian. 
I remember one summer evening he was in the field in front of the house and decided he'd go through the whole gambit of dressage moves. He was 28 at the time and did all this on his own for the fun of it. He looked a million dollars.
That's what its about, all horses can do the moves, of course they can, they don't need showing how to do it. 
The skill is getting them to do it on REQUEST, that's the key word, you will never get a decent dressage test by force, ever. You cannot breed it in either, warmbloods are just carriage horses, of course they can do the moves but so can every other breed.
Anyway, with Carl Hester's success, hopefully the European style of training through force, fear and restriction of movement and playing out time will be a thing of the past.
Trainers will be falling over themselves to do things Carl's way, shallow as we all are. Hopefully things will improve for the horse.


----------



## JFTDWS (7 August 2012)

badgermyers said:



			They are trained to move that way, some is natural yeah but the rest is trained. They dont move that way is the field is all I am saying. I think dressage is one of those sports that is as it is
		
Click to expand...

please note my acknowledgement of the importance of training, in my previous post - "schooled to exhibit those paces" - but I maintain that the excessive range of movement you describe are inherited.  They are not forced to perform them, they are bred to do so and encouraged by their training.  Completely different to rollkur.


----------



## I love my Spanish horse (7 August 2012)

Pale Rider said:



			I had a horse who was an old hunter of mine. He was a fantastic character and if he'd been human would have been a comedian. 
I remember one summer evening he was in the field in front of the house and decided he'd go through the whole gambit of dressage moves. He was 28 at the time and did all this on his own for the fun of it. He looked a million dollars.
That's what its about, all horses can do the moves, of course they can, they don't need showing how to do it. 
The skill is getting them to do it on REQUEST, that's the key word, you will never get a decent dressage test by force, ever. You cannot breed it in either, warmbloods are just carriage horses, of course they can do the moves but so can every other breed.
Anyway, with Carl Hester's success, hopefully the European style of training through force, fear and restriction of movement and playing out time will be a thing of the past.
Trainers will be falling over themselves to do things Carl's way, shallow as we all are. Hopefully things will improve for the horse.
		
Click to expand...

/\/\/\this/\/\/\ 

You cannot force a horse to do these movements, what you can do with rolkur is pull the horses head into an uncomfortable and unnatural position, which would subsequently make the rest of the horses muscles have to work harder to componsate for this and surely be at greater risk of injury. You try running for 10 minutes with your chin strapped to your chest, i bet everything will be hurting like hell by the end of it and im sure after a prolonged periods youd be more likely to have an injury of sorts than the person that ran normally. Of course horses can get injured doing dressage of any level, as with sj, racing, happyhacking or just hooning round the field. Horses  are not machines and we cant wrap them in cotton wool, but what we shouldnt do is make there working lives as uncomfortable as possible in order to cut corners in training and score extra marks


----------



## Nightmare before Christmas (7 August 2012)

JFTD said:



			please note my acknowledgement of the importance of training, in my previous post - "schooled to exhibit those paces" - but I maintain that the excessive range of movement you describe are inherited.  They are not forced to perform them, they are bred to do so and encouraged by their training.  Completely different to rollkur.
		
Click to expand...

I know all this I was trying to say it but didnt word it well. I know rolkur is different but the damage on the tissue and muscle build up is similar. I study it, I should know. 

I dont get why people always shoot those who look into this kind of thing down. We are meant to be researching ways for you to get the best out your horses while keeping injury rates down. I understand the physiological and bio mechanical strains these horses go through during training and competition, not just dressage horses, but all elite competition horses. 

They may be bred to move that way, doesnt make it natural, its selective breeding. So while they horse moves that way genetically, doesnt mean its body has fully caught up to cope with the stresses that this bring.

Im not saying it wrong, I love competing and I am all for breeding top competition horses but rolkur is just a different approach to getting top scores from horses. I am also not saying rolkur is right either..... I am looking from an on the bench scientific perspective. I dont care if its how it moves by itself or under saddle or what your horses do, none of that affects the bio mechanical mechanisms of the horses body  

If that makes sense this time?


----------



## Jesstickle (7 August 2012)

I think, badgermyers, with the greatest of respect, that the literature pertaining to rollkur has been thoroughly discussed already in the thread. Unless you happen to have a relevant study you would like to share with us about the bio mechanics of rollkur that we have all missed somehow I'm not sure you have any more evidence than the rest of us? 



Also, I wouldn't argue with JFTD about genetics. Just a heads up


----------



## Nightmare before Christmas (7 August 2012)

jesstickle said:



			I think, badgermyers, with the greatest of respect, that the literature pertaining to rollkur has been thoroughly discussed already in the thread. Unless you happen to have a relevant study you would like to share with us about the bio mechanics of rollkur that we have all missed somehow I'm not sure you have any more evidence than the rest of us? 

Also, I wouldn't argue with JFTD about genetics. Just a heads up 

Click to expand...

I am not arguing anything :S I dont think people understand me. I do think rolkur is wrong, I am just pointing out any sport puts strain on the body that can cause discomfort or injury. 

I dont have to present studies what I am saying was just a simple thing to consider. Not an argument, I dont do arguing over forums but I do enjoy putting some of my degree and study into conversations if relevant. 

That is all I was trying to say in a rather long winded way :s 

I can see why people dont post on here  Its quite sad


----------



## Nightmare before Christmas (7 August 2012)

Also I havnt read the whole thread as I have been busy today. I am sorry


----------



## Jesstickle (7 August 2012)

O golly. Ok. Go and read the whole thread. It has almost exclusively been about what does and doesn't constitute scientific evidence...

ETS: that and a bit of philosophy. The philosophy part is really rather interesting


----------



## Nightmare before Christmas (7 August 2012)

Fair enough. I cant be bothered now to read it as I must go finish the horses off. I appreciate it may say the same as me but I didnt realise that if I repeated it I would be shot down. 


Enjoy your debates and your evenings  I shall only read next time


----------



## Jesstickle (7 August 2012)

It doesn't say the same as you.


----------



## ichliebepferd (7 August 2012)

JFTD said:



			There's a reason I won't support the Dutch or the Germans et al in competitive dressage.  In fact, I'm not comfortable watching a lot of the horses on show today, if I'm honest.
		
Click to expand...

I am sorry, but I am slightly offended by this.
I currently live and train in Germany, and although I have never trained in the UK or in the Netherlands, I can say please do not tie us all with the same brush!

There are many things I don't agree with, but there is the good the bad and the ugly in every horse 'world' or country.


----------



## Nightmare before Christmas (7 August 2012)

Okay I am misunderstood then. I shall go back and tell my degree it was a waste of time (which tbh it is!)

I just thought I could add some light/knowledge to those who care. 

I know my degree is a pile as in the real equine world (I run my own business along side uni) half what I learn people dont give two tosses about, right or wrong!

I just try to be helpful on situations and give my educated opinion. 

Dont want falling out  I just dont get why people get defensive about a topic and dont let other people have their say


----------



## Jesstickle (7 August 2012)

You can have your say. You can think what you want. You can say what you want. It's nothing to do with me. But, as I said, in a thread which is all about what constitutes real, solid, scientific evidence, you can't say 'I study it so I know' and not cop flak. Fair enough, you haven't read the whole thing, that's up to you too but you know how it is on here. This things go off on tangents and often the thread swings onto something it was never about. This is one of those and if you choose not to read a long thread you risk saying something that seems a bit weird to those who have followed it start to finish. 

Anyway, who cares because team GB won anyway


----------



## Nightmare before Christmas (7 August 2012)

Haha I didnt say I know  I said I study it, and study using the papers mentioned (just had a quick flick back)  Im not sure there is any solid evidence yet as with many things, very debatable still!

The only thing I think solidly doesnt work is magnetic therapy! But thats another thread 

Anyway we did win and it was great 

Fingers crossed for individual show jumping tomorrow


----------



## Jesstickle (7 August 2012)

Would love for Nick Skelton to win it.


----------



## Nightmare before Christmas (7 August 2012)

Yes my money is on him too!


----------



## JFTDWS (7 August 2012)

badgermyers said:



			I know all this I was trying to say it but didnt word it well. I know rolkur is different but the damage on the tissue and muscle build up is similar. I study it, I should know. 

I dont get why people always shoot those who look into this kind of thing down. We are meant to be researching ways for you to get the best out your horses while keeping injury rates down. I understand the physiological and bio mechanical strains these horses go through during training and competition, not just dressage horses, but all elite competition horses. 

They may be bred to move that way, doesnt make it natural, its selective breeding. So while they horse moves that way genetically, doesnt mean its body has fully caught up to cope with the stresses that this bring.

Im not saying it wrong, I love competing and I am all for breeding top competition horses but rolkur is just a different approach to getting top scores from horses. I am also not saying rolkur is right either..... I am looking from an on the bench scientific perspective. I dont care if its how it moves by itself or under saddle or what your horses do, none of that affects the bio mechanical mechanisms of the horses body  

If that makes sense this time?
		
Click to expand...

For heavens sake.  I used to work at the RVC, yes in equine molecular medicine, very vaguely speaking.  I do NOT, and have never said anything against equine scientific research.  

My issues have been with your logic and your (slightly wild) scientific assertions.  You are not tackling this from a scientific perspective - you're tackling it from a very dodgy scientific perspective which leads me to assume you are very, very early on in any scientific career you have.


----------



## JFTDWS (7 August 2012)

ichliebepferd said:



			I am sorry, but I am slightly offended by this.
I currently live and train in Germany, and although I have never trained in the UK or in the Netherlands, I can say please do not tie us all with the same brush!

There are many things I don't agree with, but there is the good the bad and the ugly in every horse 'world' or country.
		
Click to expand...

Please don't be offended - I was referring to those on the international scene, who as far as I'm aware have all been associated with rollkur.  I am equally against riders from any country who use rollkur and if I knew a German dressge rider whose style and training methods I agreed with, I wouldn't have made such a sweeping statement.


I love Arthur Kottas.  He's Austrian, but he's the closest I can think of off the top of my head


----------



## Booboos (7 August 2012)

Great result Team GB! What a day!

And nothing tops of a world-beating record than a bit of philosophy, so allow me to harp on!

jesstickle: on the question of the law's extent in limiting matters of personal morality the choice is pretty much between Hart (liberals) and Devlin (an actual term doesn't really exist here, perhaps the social cohesiveness argument?)

BeesKnees: there are three separate questions/areas of questions here (in philosophy understanding the question is often the most important bit and often no one gets round to considering answers):

1. A question of metaethics: what is the nature of moral truth? If you think moral truth exists you are an objectivist. Examples of objectivist theories include deontologists, consequentialists, virtue ethicists, etc. If you think moral truth does not exist you are a relativist (examples include emotivists, subjectivists).

2. A question of moral theory: Deontologists argue that the right action is the one that proceeds from the right motive (the motive of duty). Consequentialists argue that the right action is the one that results in the best consequences (Utilitarians define 'best' consequences as those which bring about the greatest amount of utility for the greatest number). Virtue ethicists argue that it's all about having the right character rather than concentrating on right actions. Emotivists argue that morality is mere expressions of moral sentiments, the 'boo - hurrah' theory of morality. Subjectivists also argue that moral judgements describe how we feel.

3. There is a particular debate about the extent to which the law (rules, restrictions and regulations) should limit morality and the expression of personal liberties. This is where Hart and Devlin developped their arguments. This debate can perhaps be characterised as a question in applied ethics.

So we have the three areas of moral philosophy, metaethics, moral philosophy and applied ethics.



BTW I was briefly the most famous philosopher rider, until Laura B did her degree in philosophy and politics at Bristol! My only claim to fame ruined!


----------



## Jesstickle (7 August 2012)

I think I must be a Devlin then  

Thanks Booboos. It's all very interesting


----------



## tallyho! (8 August 2012)

Ewwwww.... my head's just exploded into my coffee.................... it's all over me iPad an'all.


----------



## SusannaF (8 August 2012)

Bloody hell, Booboos. I haven't even had my tea yet.


----------



## Booboos (8 August 2012)

On further reflection I retract the word 'proof' from the earlier post on the success of rollkur, can I replace it with 'some evidence'? 

Never too early for philosophy!


----------



## camilla4 (8 August 2012)

Booboos said:



			On further reflection I retract the word 'proof' from the earlier post on the success of rollkur, can I replace it with 'some evidence'? 

Never too early for philosophy!
		
Click to expand...

'course you can!  That was what I felt was appropriate - in all other respects, I agree with much of what you say and have been fascinated by the philosophical discussions. As a scientist by academic achievement, philosophy is a new field for me


----------



## RuthM (8 August 2012)

Booboos said:



			On further reflection I retract the word 'proof' from the earlier post on the success of rollkur, can I replace it with 'some evidence'? 

Never too early for philosophy!
		
Click to expand...

Absolutely. 

My issue with the 'evidence' is based on the abundance of confounding variables. In assessing any world class competition horse it is nigh on impossible to extract a single part from the mix that creates success, more so in competition where 'judgement' has a strong element of opinion. 

*Rollkur is not used to the exception of all else, in other words it is not the entirety of the training and therefore, unless all elements in each horse being compared are accurately known AND the balance in terms of time and degree to which each element is used, the success of the mix cannot demonstrate efficiency of any single training element in isolation. 

*Cultural factors will exist, they pretty much always do, before a conclusion as to the validity and reliability of evidence one would need to check that rollkur isn't skewed in it's use amongst say the wealthiest which would impact on the quality of horses bought. In fact one would need to make sure there is no other clear difference in this group which has led to more frequent use of rollkur and could explain success. If use is statistically different in distinct groups such as nations, then other differences from fodder to turnout between those groups needs to be taken into account. 

*Judges bias would need to be accounted for. If (no idea whether this is true) a significant proportion of dressage judges approve of rollkur and feel it is under attack they may (with or without cognisance) mark those who publicly defend and use it higher than those against.  

*We have almost no data re the extent to which it's used, daily, monthly, for 5 mins or 2 hours, there's no means to gain this data across large enough number to test statistically whether differences are by chance - and that's even if the above points were accounted for first. 

That last point, the numbers needed to produce a study and the accuracy needed regarding extent of use, in and of itself has a profound effect on the levels of data regarding the impact of rollkur. For example a horseman wishing to disguise the harm may claim rollkur is used for an hour a day when in reality it's being done for 10 minutes once a week - if that volunteer believes that 10 minutes is vital then they are motivated to cook the books. Of course one could argue that the answer is to apply rollkur just for study in horses kept by the researcher, but the number needed in order to show statistical significance where there are considerable numbers of variables (breeding, age, lifestyle, other aspects of training, judges bias) are huge. No matter how long vets may have known of an issue it's factors like the above that can determine what data exists, more so than actual existence of effect when dealing out in the real world, away from controlled labs. 

Back to underpants! Summer bum may make you wriggle and squirm, changing pants to cotton may stop this and the horse may go better. Changing a saddle for one the horse moves freely in can cut the effort required to move the horse forward, in turn this may reduce sweat (old enough to remember when nigh on all jods were nylon?), the new saddle may improve the summer bum! However, realistically, yes the saddle probably improves the horse and the pants probably improve the bum. This is more likely, not proven but more likely. 

So on to rollkur, what is likely to be felt in a horse's mouth held so tightly that the chin is forced to the chest? We know there are nerve endings in a horses mouth. Horses, like us, are mammals, as such we have some shared concept of what mouth might (probably) feel like. We are able to use biology of sight to determine whether a horse in rollkur is able to see. We are able to ask human subjects, even athletes, what it feels like to hyperflex muscles. There is of course the chance that it feels radically different to a horse, but we are talking about which is most probable rather than what is certain. We know with certainty that horses are prey animals, in turn that lead to probable conclusion re the psychological impact of losing vision, and having a head effectively tied to the chest. 

So quick flip back to philosophy. What is the stance when the balance of probability (in the absence of proof), suggests that harm is highly likely? Couple that with the absolute lack of consent and a democratic wish to avoid the probability of harm - in that circumstance do you not think it reasonable for a group to act to reduce the reasonable likelihood of significant harm?


----------



## Kittykins (8 August 2012)

Ruth, in reply to your post (which I won't quote for reasons of brevity), what would you be trying to prove here? That rollkur is cruel, or that it's effective? 

[QUOTE _GG_]How could the commentators not be rapturous over a three time Olympic Gold Medalist without getting into the whole debate. They are commentating to a much wider audience than just the horse world.

As for the judges, no, I don't think they liked what they saw. Her test was almost faultless in its execution. As the untrained eyes of my other half said...it looked much better than the tests in the first group this morning...but she got a 74 and Carl Hester got an 80. 




			If Anky is a three time Gold medalist, and she uses rollkur, then clearly it is a method which can produce results in the ring. Or at the very least, she feels it is, when thrown into the mix with things like the horse's breed and general care and training. 

If it's now NOT producing results because of a change in fashion towards a more natural way of going, then it will fall out of favour because the horse's way of going under those riders who use it won't catch the judge's eye. And hoorah for that. 

Ultimately, what Ruth has said is that it's very difficult to prove anything about the effectiveness of rollkur because you can't seperate it from other variables in the real world. Scientific practice does have it's limits! Therefore it's always going to be a subjective issue - if people feel that using it produces a way of going that's likely to win they'll use it, and if they don't they wont. 

I'm fully with Hart on the liberal / social thing. Unless someone is clearly causing harm to another being, let them do what they will.
		
Click to expand...


----------



## RuthM (8 August 2012)

Ruth, in reply to your post (which I won't quote for reasons of brevity), what would you be trying to prove here? That rollkur is cruel, or that it's effective?
		
Click to expand...

I would not be so ill educated to seek to prove anything with regard to a single training method applied so diversely and so utterly impossible to isolate. In fact what I am arguing is that where proof, or even reliably controlled evidence, is so  ludicrously implausible one must look at probability, what is the probable experience of a horse undergoing such force through it's mouth as to bind it's chin to chest? 

I am also arguing that it is reasonable for a group of people to exclude such a practice from the sport in which that group indulges. This is not about human rights, excluding rollkur from affiliated sport does not equal making it illegal, it does not prevent the practice it merely clarifies that as a group those _choosing_ to affiliate with governing bodies who have decided it is outside their rules thereby break those rules if they continue the practice. I am also defending the right of a group to evaluate the way animals are treated for their own sport, and to be allowed to take reasonable account of probability in the absence of availability of 'proof', in fact I would argue that to not do so would be remiss in regard to a duty of care.

I believe a more compelling case would need to be made in order to make the practice 'illegal' - but that is totally my opinion, not a statement of fact.

Are you still unclear?


----------



## Kittykins (8 August 2012)

Nope, got it now. I completely concur.


----------



## RuthM (8 August 2012)

Kittykins said:



			Nope, got it now. I completely concur. 

Click to expand...

Phew!


----------



## Stilldreamin' (9 August 2012)

Just had to say that I was most amused at the comments during Mr Kittels freestyle today- our commentator noted that the horse was lacking in self carriage and leaning on his forehand quite a bit... wonder why eh?!


----------



## inamac (10 August 2012)

_GG_ said:



			Wow, I only just signed up and my word what a start, lol. 

Rollkur will continue to be used as long as the judges award high scores to those that use it. So, instead of focussing on the negatives, focus on the fact that the judges at London 2012 are marking these tests brilliantly. They are marking up for correctness and marking down for horses going behind the vertical, showing tension, poor angles etc. THAT is what will make the Rollkur users change their training methods!

So, that's my first post on these forums over with. Hello everyone 

Click to expand...

GG, welcome from another new member.

I do agree.  It was judges who started rewarding the 'rollkur outline', and it is judges like those at 2012 who have the ultimate power to discourage its use.

More power to them.


----------



## Booboos (10 August 2012)

There were quite a few rollkur horses at the Olympics, Salinero, Parcival, Painted Black, Undercover, Scandic, to name but the ones I know and I am hardly in the know about people's training methods, but I don't think they all had the same way of going or the same strengths/weaknesses.

Presuming the classical breeds were trained classically then not even Fuego (a bit tense at first but getting better and better), Grandioso (nothing to write home about in this company) or Rubi (frequently BTV especially in his GP) had the same way of going or the same strengths/weaknesses.


----------



## Booboos (14 August 2012)

Sorry to resurrect a quiet thread but coincidentally someone has popped up in the Adelinde Cornelissen thread to say that they feel the whole of riding is abusive. He/she is immediately being called mad, a troll, taking the piss, etc. but if the argument from feeling is enough to ban rollkur then it is equally good for banning all of riding.

BTW I am NOT Pompidou!!!


----------



## tallyho! (14 August 2012)

Why not!? Great idea! It would save me loads!

When you ponder about it for long enough, I do wonder why we keep these animals in sqaures of varying sizes, worry ourselves sick over them for a few minutes of pleasure a day or so. Is it because we all want to satisfy some inner twisted ego?

I think that is the case for me and I just have to live with it. It's an addiction I can't quit yet. Plus, it keeps me busy.

Riding is probably cruel, or else we wouldn't spend so much on trying to make it as comfortable and as humane as possible.... In most cases anyway. In competition, or where money is involved, sometimes it seems, the horse isn't even considered as a sentient being.


----------



## Ibblebibble (14 August 2012)

i tend to look at it from the other side, if we didn't keep horses to ride, there would be no horses in this country unless we took to eating them and kept them as livestock.


----------



## Renvers (14 August 2012)

Ibblebibble said:



			i tend to look at it from the other side, if we didn't keep horses to ride, there would be no horses in this country unless we took to eating them and kept them as livestock.
		
Click to expand...

this ^^. It is also unnatural for me to sit in an office for hours everyday looking at a computer, but that is the requirement of the social structure I am in and the benefits outweigh the alternative. I figure my horses are equally accepting of the price of stability, shelter and guaranteed food and good health.


----------



## tallyho! (14 August 2012)

Ok well, this could be verging on the ridiculous but, why eat horse when you can have beef? Or lamb.... Or deer.... 

Anyway, I like keeping horses to ride. They look pretty, they make me happy and furthermore I just blinking well like them. 

I feed and clothe them... They want for nothing. Where would they be without us horse lovers? Probably treated like goats for land management or something. Not much fun....


----------



## JFTDWS (14 August 2012)

Why eat beef when you can eat lamb?  Because it's different.  So I guess why not eat pony?

I'd rather keep mine to ride than eat though


----------



## RuthM (14 August 2012)

Booboos - as a proffesor no less I can only assume the straw man of 'argument from feeling enough to ban rollkur' is as deliberate as it is outrageous!


----------



## tallyho! (14 August 2012)

I reckon horse would be quite tough... They move around too much.


----------



## Mondy (15 August 2012)

tallyho! said:



			Ok well, this could be verging on the ridiculous but, why eat horse when you can have beef? Or lamb.... Or deer....
		
Click to expand...

Because horse meat is healthy and has a good taste. There is less fat but it is more succulent and harder to cook dry. In Denmark, it is becoming increasingly popular, especially within the equestrian community where it is seen as a sensible way of 'disposing of' the horses from the big studs which are simply not good enough.

If people in Britain could be convinced to eat horse we could save some poor animals from the horrific ordeal of the slaughter-transports to Europe.


----------



## chestnut cob (15 August 2012)

Mondy said:



			Because horse meat is healthy and has a good taste. There is less fat but it is more succulent and harder to cook dry. In Denmark, it is becoming increasingly popular, especially within the equestrian community where it is seen as a sensible way of 'disposing of' the horses from the big studs which are simply not good enough.

If people in Britain could be convinced to eat horse we could save some poor animals from the horrific ordeal of the slaughter-transports to Europe.
		
Click to expand...

It's difficult enough to convince people to eat veal, never mind horse meat!!


----------



## xxlindeyxx (15 August 2012)

I saw a video on epona tv of what they said was Rollkur in Reining :


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1h5S1zIk-II

Not just dressage it seems 



Sorry to reopen this thread i just thought some people would want to see this .


----------



## Pale Rider (15 August 2012)

http://youtu.be/Vh0cvIA8pk8

The above is Tom McCutcheon at the FEI World Reining Final in Malmö, Sweden in May 2011.

He got loads of stick for this, rightly so.

Another example of the FEI well on top of the job .

Funny how Anky took to reining, lol.

Just more examples of riders at the top level of their sport going to any lengths to win. Horses are only there to support their goal and ambition, the welfare of the horse matters not to these people. If they need to cheat and be abusive, so what. There are thousands who will pop along to watch grinning and aplauding, and a governing body mired in who knows what, turning a blind eye, allowing this to continue.
These people are contemptable in every way.


----------



## LollyDolly (15 August 2012)

If people in Britain could be convinced to eat horse we could save some poor animals from the horrific ordeal of the slaughter-transports to Europe.
		
Click to expand...

Good God, you are advocating people eating horse meat!?


----------



## LittleBlackMule (15 August 2012)

Pale Rider said:



http://youtu.be/Vh0cvIA8pk8

The above is Tom McCutcheon at the FEI World Reining Final in Malmö, Sweden in May 2011.

He got loads of stick for this, rightly so.

Another example of the FEI well on top of the job .

Funny how Anky took to reining, lol.
		
Click to expand...

Yes, I can see why Manky van Gruesome finds reining so appealing; she must feel completely at home with the yank'n'crank brigade.


----------



## kerilli (15 August 2012)

Tbh I sincerely wish the Brits weren't so utterly weird about eating horsemeat. Apparently it's an ancient thing to do with having worshipped Epona, or something! Cattle are as intelligent as horses, most people eat them. Pigs are more intelligent than dogs fgs, yet most people don't care about the awful way many are farmed.
If we ate horsemeat in this country then horses would be more valuable, even the awful specimens, because, to put it bluntly, 'meat money' would be higher. Welfare standards would improve imho, and more unwanted horses could be humanely pts (not the worst thing that can happen to a horse - look at Spindles Farm fgs) meaning the remainder were valued more.
Once a horse is dead, ideally as humanely as possible and after a nice life (short or otherwise), does it really matter whether it is eaten by dogs or by people? 
Don't get me wrong, I love horses, and I wish every horse could have a lovely long life with a devoted caring owner, but I'm also a realist. While we have hundreds of thousands too many horses which are poor specimens and of very low value, welfare won't improve, and that's more tragic than horses being humanely killed and then eaten.


----------



## vinnie (15 August 2012)

The only place a horse's head should be when it is "low", "down" or "stretching", is with it's nose on or just in front of the vertical, seeking and elastic contact which the rider grants with a soft hand.
IMO, a horse should NEVER be behind the vertical, not if the training is correct. And I actually don't know how people can get up to such a high level when they train with such a restrictive hand... hmmm.


----------



## xxlindeyxx (15 August 2012)

Pale Rider said:



http://youtu.be/Vh0cvIA8pk8

The above is Tom McCutcheon at the FEI World Reining Final in Malmö, Sweden in May 2011.

He got loads of stick for this, rightly so.

Another example of the FEI well on top of the job .

Funny how Anky took to reining, lol.

Just more examples of riders at the top level of their sport going to any lengths to win. Horses are only there to support their goal and ambition, the welfare of the horse matters not to these people. If they need to cheat and be abusive, so what. There are thousands who will pop along to watch grinning and aplauding, and a governing body mired in who knows what, turning a blind eye, allowing this to continue.
These people are contemptable in every way.
		
Click to expand...



At the start of that video its looks like what ive seen Marcus Ehning (showjumper) do in the warm up ring . Its in all disciplines and is so rediculous that FEI turn a blind eye.


----------

