# Shock as VOSA changes its mind on horsebox regulations



## Nic (6 March 2009)

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/news/397/278245.html

This can't be serious surely, April 1st come early?

How can they possibly police this?!!  It will completely slaughter the horse industry, there must be something that we can do?


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## Skhosu (6 March 2009)

I don't believe it will slaughter the horse injury, imo most people who work full time have non hgv lorries.
Not sure how it applies to professionals though, as they are always working?


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## Nic (6 March 2009)

I've got an HGV and work full time,  given the severe clamp down on 7.5t lorry weights a lot of people have been forced to upgrade to HGV's.


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## ttt (6 March 2009)

How many horses do you take out at one time?


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## Nic (6 March 2009)

Up to 3, one of which can not travel in a trailer,  why?


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## lucretia (6 March 2009)

well if the pro's are clever they should be able to get round it even especially if they have a groom with an HGV license because FOR EXAMPLE if they catch William Fox Pitt driving his trck with Fox Pitt eventing all over the side of it well they would first have to prove he hadnt had the required days off. As long as he wasnt on the tacho's everytime it was driven he should be fine cos he is the employer and can take time off when he likes. much more likely to get fined for his employee Jackie driving cos everyone knows she never takes a day off!! seriously most grooms work a six day week so regardless of wheter they have driven the truck or not to be within the law for a start they would probably need to work 5 days one week and six the next.
   it should be pretty easy for the police but i am not going to say how on here and give them ideas! anyone who wants to  know what i think they will do can PM me! and the rise of the freelance HGV driver with all the relevant competency certificates might have begun. the cost of them will be a lot less than the fine for non compliance.


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## Nic (7 March 2009)

Hence why the article says amateur riders.

I'm fairly sure they won't require ideas from anyone on how to police it,  they manage to screw HGV drivers to the wall pretty well on their own.


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## lucretia (7 March 2009)

i really hate it when people make what they think are smart comments without reading the thread (and possibly the article as well). 
    my post was in answer to triple sands concern over the pro's which is why it is posted as a reply to triplesands and hence why i was talking about pro's. 
  as it happens this lw doesnt just affect amateurs it affects anyone who works and drives HGV trucks. Considering how few 'weekend riders' have HGV wagons, i am not quite sure why anyone would think they are  the most likely to be affected. according to driving law work is work regardless of whether you are driving so a pro running their own yard is at a lot more risk, so are most grooms who already work a six day week. at least your office person generally only works five eight hour days so they have a bit of slack.
  as for the police 'screwing HGV drivers, i dont see what that means, they dont make the laws, merely enforce them and in fact the only time i ever had bother was with a very junior and rather over zealous young traffic officer, who was soon put straight by his superior once he realised both my truck, my driving and both our documents were in order. 
  i have not bothered to expound on the easy ay to catch people out because what may be clear to you and I, may be totally obscure to another and you never know who may be reading this.


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## machannah (7 March 2009)

i have a full time job and drive my friends HGV lorry at the weekend, because i am a friend and i am helping out! SHe runs a yard full time, so if i go to help out, often she is more tired than me.

I could drive my car all weekend and no one would stop me, this sounds like utter madness!


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## perfect11s (7 March 2009)

[ QUOTE ]
i have a full time job and drive my friends HGV lorry at the weekend, because i am a friend and i am helping out! SHe runs a yard full time, so if i go to help out, often she is more tired than me.

I could drive my car all weekend and no one would stop me, this sounds like utter madness! 

[/ QUOTE ]
The bit that confuses me is,   you are a private individual and use your over  7.5 ton lorry  totaly for private use you dont need an  opperators licence, cpc, keep mainternace records (6 weeky PMI) ..  but you do need to  use the taco and keep the charts why and for  what ??? why one set of rules and not the others , is this inforsable????has anyone been proscuted  for tacograph ofences as a private hgv owner   
	
	
		
		
	


	




 can they(vosa)  if you havent got an O licence?? and you dont need one in law ?? And VOSA carnt "change its mind" its there to inforce the law not make them up as they go along..


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## PaulaBoniface (7 March 2009)

I don't know why people are shocked by these laws both me and my partner are HGV drivers and we has to comply with the laws outlined above so I don't see why horseboxes should be any different. Horseboxes drivers are just as likely to cause accidents or even death by being overworked and tired as anybody else. I used to be a traveling groom for an International showjumper and I was always away working for weeks and weeks without a day off i think these laws will protect grooms, riders, horses and any other road users. As soon as you drive a HGV' for one minute a week you automatically come under tachograph regulations so as mentioned above riders like William Fox Pit will have to complete a log for what he has done all week manually this is a legal requirement, so police will be able to check as he will have to produce this to him.  have also got my CPC in National Road Haulage and my Advanced Certificate in Equine Transport. I also used to run the fleet in a large transport company before going on maternity leave so anybody requiring any assistance PM me.


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## PaulaBoniface (7 March 2009)

Any lorry with a fitted tachograph over 7.5 tonne for any use must have a tachograph card in whenever it is used. Yes people have been prosecuted for this.


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## perfect11s (7 March 2009)

[ QUOTE ]
I don't know why people are shocked by these laws both me and my partner are HGV drivers and we has to comply with the laws outlined above so I don't see why horseboxes should be any different. Horseboxes drivers are just as likely to cause accidents or even death by being overworked and tired as anybody else. I used to be a traveling groom for an International showjumper and I was always away working for weeks and weeks without a day off i think these laws will protect grooms, riders, horses and any other road users. As soon as you drive a HGV' for one minute a week you automatically come under tachograph regulations so as mentioned above riders like William Fox Pit will have to complete a log for what he has done all week manually this is a legal requirement, so police will be able to check as he will have to produce this to him.  have also got my CPC in National Road Haulage and my Advanced Certificate in Equine Transport. I also used to run the fleet in a large transport company before going on maternity leave so anybody requiring any assistance PM me. 

[/ QUOTE ]

I think fox pitt will have a O licence and need to comply with the same regulations as anyone using a hgv as part of there bussiness..  its the private users issue which needs clearing up .......


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## PaulaBoniface (7 March 2009)

Yes you are probably right about William but I know lots of the proffesionals that don't have an O Licence. You only need an O licence if it is for hire and reward but you need to comply with all the other tachograph regulations and working time regulations if you are a private user.


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## perfect11s (7 March 2009)

[ QUOTE ]
Yes you are probably right about William but I know lots of the proffesionals that don't have an O Licence. You only need an O licence if it is for hire and reward but you need to comply with all the other tachograph regulations and working time regulations if you are a private user. 

[/ QUOTE ]

If they( proffesionals) do it for a living and are earning money they are doing it for hire or reward and should have an O licence...  my point is amature private people with hgvs who are competing for fun not to make a living...


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## PaulaBoniface (7 March 2009)

I agree with you but all the amatures are still just as capable of having accident because they are too tired and have been working all week as the proffesionals. They need to comply with the tachograph laws.


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## perfect11s (7 March 2009)

[ QUOTE ]
I agree with you but all the amatures are still just as capable of having accident because they are too tired and have been working all week as the proffesionals. They need to comply with the tachograph laws. 

[/ QUOTE ]
Ok then no one should drive anything at the week end if we have been working during the week???, Oh great a perfect excuse for not going shopping  
	
	
		
		
	


	








 thanks


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## horseguy (7 March 2009)

Hmmmmm I would love to be involved with this thread, there is so much I can add and advise on, but as I work for VOSA I am prohibited from making any comment, but I will point you to VOSA's web site, where advice can be found http://www.vosa.gov.uk/


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## NoCollection (7 March 2009)

Well, that's not the easiest website to find information on, but these bits may help: http://www.vosa.gov.uk/vosacorp/repository/Working%20Time%20-%20The%20Facts.pdf and http://www.vosa.gov.uk/vosacorp/repository/EC%20Drivers%20Hours.pdf

One or two interesting points from the leaflets:

Working time is restricted to road transport activities and other associated work (for example, when a driver works in the employers warehouse).

The private use of vehicles is presently exempt from EC drivers hours rules. On 11 April 2007, this exemption will only apply when the permitted mass of the vehicle (and any trailer drawn) does not exceed 7500kg.

So their own leaflets are confusing as well.


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## perfect11s (7 March 2009)

[ QUOTE ]
Hmmmmm I would love to be involved with this thread, there is so much I can add and advise on, but as I work for VOSA I am prohibited from making any comment, but I will point you to VOSA's web site, where advice can be found http://www.vosa.gov.uk/ 

[/ QUOTE ]  
Maybe you could ask the right person to post some tips for us so we know what we need to do to comply with the regulations,
most people want to do the right thing but its getting harder to get definative answers to legal stuff relating to towing and the private use of hgvs there is so much conflicting advice and comments offered, and stupid laws from europe added on a regular basis it is hard to keep up....


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## Boltonrider (7 March 2009)

There seems to be a little confusion going on here...

The restrictions apply only to vehicles OVER 7.5t, the users of 7.5t vehicles will not be affected.

As for the drivers amongst us who use vehicles plated over 7.5t and hold HGV licences....
The enforcement will no longer differentiate between weekend pleasure riders and professional operators. 
What they are saying in simple terms is...
If you hold an HGV/LGV licence and drive a vehicle in excess of 7.5t, at any time.... you must comply with the domestic drivers hours regulations in the UK.
They are not the most simple part of law to understand!... you would be well advised to research the legislation, all the information is available on the web... however you may find it more acceptable to book yourself on a course with one of the transport training operators.

The basics revolve around one issue...
IF at ANY TIME in the 7 day week, you drive a HGV/LGV, then for the whole of that week you are required to have a manual log of all working hours and work details, you are also required to comply with the Drivers hours regulations.

The only way to effectively comply, is if you work more than 30hrs a week and intend to drive a HGV/LGV at any point, then learn, understand and comply with the regulations and the working time directive.

The change in enforcement will simply mean it becomes easier for Vosa and others to be active on a weekend around equestrian events. The enforcement issue is very complicated, and a pretty good money spinner!

At the end of the day... you took the time to take an HGV/LGV test, you invested the money in doing so. If you can manage the test, then you can manage to learn the regulations and comply with them. It's not the fairest of enforcement changes to be actioned... but, it's been done, it's there and now we must act accordingly. 
Our licence's, our money, and our activities are valuable to us all, a few wee changes and we'll be ok!
If it's going to affect you excessively, consider down grading to a 7.5t or less vehicle!!!


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## Nic (7 March 2009)

[ QUOTE ]

If it's going to affect you excessively, consider down grading to a 7.5t or less vehicle!!! 

[/ QUOTE ]

Many people on here will testify to how difficult it is to find a 7.5t that will take 3 horses, and even some weekend riders have more than 3 horses, so a trailer or 7.5t are not an option.  

IMO it is completely unfair that (e.g) someone driving a non HGV for a living can drive an HGV without being restricted yet is far more likely to be tired and therefore cause an accident.


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## Nic (7 March 2009)

I'm aware that your post was directed at TripleSandH and my comment is still valid.

I was referring to VOSA screwing drivers against the wall not the police.


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## Boltonrider (7 March 2009)

[ QUOTE ]

IMO it is completely unfair that (e.g) someone driving a non HGV for a living can drive an HGV without being restricted yet is far more likely to be tired and therefore cause an accident. 

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly why the enforcement is changing!!!
The restriction will now be enforced.....

At the end of the day... an HGV/LGV is a missile! It can cause massive destruction.. therefore are the limits not justified??


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## lucretia (7 March 2009)

[ QUOTE ]

IMO it is completely unfair that (e.g) someone driving a non HGV for a living can drive an HGV without being restricted yet is far more likely to be tired and therefore cause an accident. 

[/ QUOTE ]

They cant now.


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## Nic (7 March 2009)

Sorry I didn't word that correctly.  I mean in theory someone who has been driving a non HGV 100 ( obviously an exaggeration but it could happen!) hours a week for a living can drive a 7.5t lorry at the weekend,  and is far more likely to cause an accident.

A 7.5t lorry is just as lethal as an HGV,  as is any vehicle.


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## perfect11s (7 March 2009)

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

If it's going to affect you excessively, consider down grading to a 7.5t or less vehicle!!! 

[/ QUOTE ]

Many people on here will testify to how difficult it is to find a 7.5t that will take 3 horses, and even some weekend riders have more than 3 horses, so a trailer or 7.5t are not an option.  

IMO it is completely unfair that (e.g) someone driving a non HGV for a living can drive an HGV without being restricted yet is far more likely to be tired and therefore cause an accident. 

[/ QUOTE ]   
A 3 horse lorry is easy to achieve and 4 with living quarters is possible on a 7.5 gross chassis,the  bare chassis weigh about 3.3 tons  the problem is the horse box  builders  using  the wrong matrials and  old fasthioned constrution methods,  think how light a modern caravan is and that has a chassis and wheels  so someone needs to design something from the ground up and bring the horse box into the 21century surely there is a market for it , luckly horse box makers dont make  planes or boats..... they woulden't fly and a boat would sink..


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## perfect11s (7 March 2009)

[ QUOTE ]
I'm aware that your post was directed at TripleSandH and my comment is still valid.

I was referring to VOSA screwing drivers against the wall not the police. 

[/ QUOTE ]   
VOSA are only doing a job and it is important that lorrys are safe and drivers/opperators keep to the rules so it fair  for all ,  sadly there is presure on drivers to  twist the rules and sometimes break the law just to get the job done and earn a living wage....the WTD was supossed to help employes, but from what ive seen it just puts more pressure on folk to achive more in less time when it comes to driving... just my 2 cents...


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## horseguy (7 March 2009)

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

If it's going to affect you excessively, consider down grading to a 7.5t or less vehicle!!! 

[/ QUOTE ]

Many people on here will testify to how difficult it is to find a 7.5t that will take 3 horses, and even some weekend riders have more than 3 horses, so a trailer or 7.5t are not an option.  

IMO it is completely unfair that (e.g) someone driving a non HGV for a living can drive an HGV without being restricted yet is far more likely to be tired and therefore cause an accident. 

[/ QUOTE ]   
A 3 horse lorry is easy to achieve and 4 with living quarters is possible on a 7.5 gross chassis,the  bare chassis weigh about 3.3 tons  the problem is the horse box  builders  using  the wrong matrials and  old fasthioned constrution methods,  think how light a modern caravan is and that has a chassis and wheels  so someone needs to design something from the ground up and bring the horse box into the 21century surely there is a market for it , luckly horse box makers dont make  planes or boats..... they woulden't fly and a boat would sink.. 
	
	
		
		
	


	









[/ QUOTE ]



And look how caravans disintegrate at the slightest impact, what would happen if a horse were to kick the sides?

A lot of research and stress calculations go into modern vehicle bodies, I can't see how they are going to make them much lighter......


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## perfect11s (7 March 2009)

Yes but you only need to make the horse area strong???  whats  wrong useing ally instead of steel and using light weight matirials for the living,  not chip board   ally plank floor instead of wood,  sadly little research and stress calculations  go in to most horse boxes just a lot of OSB and chip board  I work in the body building and motor trade as a sub contractor and have   observed what goes on..


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## viewfromahill (7 March 2009)

Have posted this elsewhere - Spoke to VOSA and Driving Standards Agency on Friday(as VOSA say it is not them!) but both say the H &amp; H article is inaccurate, this does not apply to private individuals and they gave example of teacher driving school minibus (they are full time teachers not minibus drivers) therefore drivers hours regs are not applicable have asked VOSA for WRITTEN clarification but they say they will contact H &amp; H with a view to correcting the article.  The drivers hours rules  will therefore only apply to business use and the legal definition as printed in H &amp; H applies to business users only


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## GeeBee45 (8 March 2009)

Hopefully I can clarify some of the points raised in the article and this forum thread and get rid of some of the rubbish and misinformation written.

Firstly, the Recording Equipment (proper name for Tachographs) Regulation and EU drivers Hours rules have been around for some 24 years. Yes, the drivers hours rules changed in April 2007. The major change that has caused all the panic here is that 'private use' of a vehicle is now limited to a Maximum Permissible Mass (MPM) of 7.5 tonnes (including that of any trailer drawn).

Starting at the beginning, if the MPM of a vehicle (including a drawn trailer) exceeds 3.5 tonnes, then the driver comes under the control of EU drivers hours rules and a tachograph must be fitted and used, UNLESS the vehicle / it's use is exempt from the Regulation. I have a Shogun with a two axle Equi-Trek, the MPM of which is 6.2 tonnes, remember, for drivers hours rules, it is what is on the 'Plate' (manufacturers or Ministry) that counts, not what the vehicle actually weighs on a weighbridge.  It doesn't matter if the vehicle is laden or not, if MPM exceeds 3.5 tonnes you are subject to EU drivers hours UNLESS exempt.

The important bit contained in Council Regulation (EC) 561/2006 is Article 3.(h) which says;

 <font color="blue">  'vehicles or combinations of vehicles with a maximum
permissible mass not exceeding 7,5 tonnes used for the
non-commercial carriage of goods'
</font> 

This means that provided that the MPM of the vehicle (or combination, if towing a trailer) is 7.5 tonnes or below and you are carrying goods for non commercial reasons you are exempt the application of the Regulation. Hence I don't need to fit a Tachograph to my Shogun nor do I come under the EU drivers Hours rules. The same goes for all those who have a 7.5 tonne horsebox and carry horses for non commercial reasons. However, should I decide to set up a parcel delivery service and use the Shogun and trailer for that, I would not be able to claim the exemption and would have to fit a Tachograph and use it. However, if I was using the trailer at weekends to transport my own horse I still wouldnt need to use the Tachograph. I could count my weekends out with the horse as my weekly rest period from my commercial driving during the week as Im freely disposing of my time and my vehicle combination is exempt the EU drivers hours rules. Did anyone say working this lot out was easy????

What changed in April 2007 is that the use of vehicles by a private individual where the MPM exceeds 7.5 tonnes is no longer exempt from the European drivers hours rules. The driver, even if they are transporting their own property will be bound by the limits on daily, weekly and fortnightly driving and be required to take daily and weekly rest. In the majority of cases it is the requirement to take weekly rest that will be the issue. The Regulation requires that a driver of a controlled vehicle shall start a weekly rest period, in which they are freely able to dispose of their time, no later than six 24 hour periods since finishing the last weekly rest period. The weekly rest period is 45 hours although in alternate weeks this may be reduced to no less than 24 hours, but you have to pay back the reduction. The difficulty with this is that if you work during the week, doesnt matter what the job is, you cannot take the rest period as you are not able to freely dispose of your time.

Not sure that VOSA (or the Police) have changed their interpretation of the law as the Regulation is clear, if the MPM of the vehicle exceeds 7.5 tonnes then even if its use is private it will come under the control of EU drivers hours rules. The Regulation has caused problems where regular HGV drivers were volunteers within the Reserve Forces or held positions within the Retained Fire Service. The situation with the TA has been resolved to some extent by a recent Commission Decision, the Fire Service situation is currently being discussed.

Two points to bear in mind if you use a vehicle that comes in scope of the EU drivers hour rules, you must use the Tachograph that is fitted, that instrument needs to be correctly installed, calibrated and fully operational. Also you must be able to produce, when requested by the Police or a VOSA Examiner records for the current day and any days you drove on in the previous 28 calendar days. 
VOSA produce a booklet about EU drivers hours and tachograph usage, you can download it from: http://www.transportoffice.gov.uk/crt/re...nd%20Europe.pdf or get a copy free from your local HGV Test Station.

Apologies for the long post but it is a complicated area of legislation. Just because the use of the vehicle is exempt Operator Licensing does not mean it will be exempt Tachographs and drivers hours


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## perfect11s (8 March 2009)

Great and very helpfull  thanks.. that clears it up for me  
so an hgv is to be avoided at all costs now for most folk.. its a shame but its just not worth the hassle, is there anywere else in the world as regulated as europe and are we beter off or safer than say the USA


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## JM07 (8 March 2009)

and if a vehicle IS fitted with an operating Tacho, then even goig 200 yds up the road to fuel up needs a NEW Tacho put in to record it movement and mileage.

and yes, i too know of people who have been prosecuted


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## SpottedCat (8 March 2009)

Quick question - I assume it does not matter what your job is? So if you do an office job you cannot drive an HGV at weekends? Or does this only cover people for whom the main purpose of their job is driving?


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## GeeBee45 (8 March 2009)

[ QUOTE ]
Quick question - I assume it does not matter what your job is? So if you do an office job you cannot drive an HGV at weekends? Or does this only cover people for whom the main purpose of their job is driving? 

[/ QUOTE ]

Basically it doesn't matter what your job is during the week for example; teacher, civil servant, bank manger, dustman, firefighter, burger flipper or vet. If you drive a vehicle subject to the European Drivers Hours rules you must have a weekly rest period. How much driving you can do at the weekend will depend upon your weekly employment.

Remember, these rules do not apply to folk using vehicles where the permitted weight is less than or equal to 7.5 tonnes and the vehicle is used for non commercial transport.


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## SpottedCat (8 March 2009)

Ok, that makes sense, even if it seems a bit unfair. I only ask as whilst I only own a 7.5t lorry, I have a full class C licence.


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## lucretia (8 March 2009)

Also, i said above, if you are the owner of the yard and driving the vehicle then you can claim any days when not on the tacho were 'rest days' you after all will be filling in the paperwork required for staff hours etc. Your groom will have at least one day off a week which should be in their contract. However the reason that  a groom migth not be able to drive even if 'just' doing yard work id that i believe the hours regulations says 'rest from work of any kind' and grooming the rest of the week woould be like working in the warehouse for a delivery driver. They might not actually be driving, but a) cannot freely dispose of their time  and b) are obviously working for that employer so any time hours transgressions are easily checked.
   it is not good but frankly there are too many people taking liberties with big trucks. and while i agree a small one is capable of just as much damage if badly driven, the bigger the vehicle the less time you have to react, as they do not respond as quickly and the less room you have for making errors.


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## SpottedCat (8 March 2009)

I agree L - but there are loopholes, like my truck is a 7.5t but is a downrated 10t - so theoretically no better/worse than an HGV but not classed as one so exempt from regs. And I did a lot of driving in the summer for my job - which was when I was using the lorry most - so could easily do lots of driving in the week then drive the lorry at weekends, and that was fine. 

I fail to understand how someone who is a sales rep and does a thousand miles a week in a car is more safe driving a 7.5t lorry at the weekends than say a groom who has mucked out all week and so cannot drive the yards 10t lorry to an event.


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## perfect11s (8 March 2009)

[ QUOTE ]
I agree L - but there are loopholes, like my truck is a 7.5t but is a downrated 10t - so theoretically no better/worse than an HGV but not classed as one so exempt from regs. And I did a lot of driving in the summer for my job - which was when I was using the lorry most - so could easily do lots of driving in the week then drive the lorry at weekends, and that was fine. 

I fail to understand how someone who is a sales rep and does a thousand miles a week in a car is more safe driving a 7.5t lorry at the weekends than say a groom who has mucked out all week and so cannot drive the yards 10t lorry to an event. 

[/ QUOTE ]
  Its because most of the recent rules  have been drawn  up by europe by unelected buracrats with little or no real common sense who  have to keep doing it to justify their exsistance so we have rule after silly rule ..how much  more damage will we let europe do to our way of life and bussiness ????? does anyone see any benifit from mebership except the MEP s on the euro gravy train...we seemed to be able to make up laws and had a stable democracy for the last few hundred years before  the EU...       what a mess  our poor little country has become


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## tanith (27 March 2009)

I hope this helps ... a couple of friends of mine have set up a website to help horsebox drivers out. He's a transport manager and totally up to date with the new legislation. We had a look on a number of sites, and on many the information is just as confusing as in the article or, even worse, totally out of date. 

http://www.horseboxregs.co.uk/

Any feedback on whether you find it useful would be brilliant!


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## FRESHMAN (27 March 2009)

I also do not believe you can safely travel 3 horses in an under weight vehicle &amp; remain under the weight. As a HGV driver that passed a test many years ago I seem to remember that it is not strictly about overall weight, but axle weight. I have only skimmed through this thread but do not remember seeing this mentioned. So can anyone please educate me &amp; let me know whether I have lost my marbles or whether a box is dependant on weight over each axle? I feel this is an important piece of information as most horses are transported over the back axle &amp; not the front.


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## H's mum (27 March 2009)

No you're right FRESHMAN - a friend of mine got pulled over and had to rearrange the horses in the back so the biggest was in first...  
Kate x


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## FRESHMAN (27 March 2009)

Thanks for your assurance Kate,  it would seem that even on a serious post that has run for 3 pages no one else is either informed or interested.


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## Rambo (28 March 2009)

Either that, or we're all bored of repeating ourselves


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## perfect11s (28 March 2009)

[ QUOTE ]
I also do not believe you can safely travel 3 horses in an under weight vehicle &amp; remain under the weight. As a HGV driver that passed a test many years ago I seem to remember that it is not strictly about overall weight, but axle weight. I have only skimmed through this thread but do not remember seeing this mentioned. So can anyone please educate me &amp; let me know whether I have lost my marbles or whether a box is dependant on weight over each axle? I feel this is an important piece of information as most horses are transported over the back axle &amp; not the front. 

[/ QUOTE ]    
 Not sure what you mean by under the weight?? a 7.5 gross ??? and yes a well built one will easly carry 3 sadly there are a lot that have been built by men who pleasure themselves.. and use the wrong materals and construction methods ie loads of thick ply and mdf instead of lightweight ply and alloy, and yes axle weights are important and yes you can be done for axle overloading even if the total isnt over 7.5 ton.. dito on the build, axle placement is important , if the back wheels are to far forward  it can overload the back axle  if they are to far back the front axle can be overloaded esp if it has a luton, As a rule on say a 3 horse lorry its best if its built so 1st horse is in  front of the axle 2nd over it and 3rd behind... hope this helps


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## FRESHMAN (29 March 2009)

So at the risk of "repeating myself" is it about overall weight or axle weight? There is a huge difference. This point does not appear to have been raised. As I understand it a horsebox is not allowed to carry more than a certain percentage of it's gross weight behind the back axle. (60% springs to mind) Unfortunately that is where the majority of the weight is carried when horses are loaded.


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## FRESHMAN (29 March 2009)

So unless you have a simple 3 horse waggon with no living whatsoever it will be over 7.5 Gross weight. Have you considered the safety issues when recommending lightweight build. ie ply &amp; alloy. Would it stand up to much with a difficult horse or god forbid a road traffic  accident?


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## perfect11s (29 March 2009)

[ QUOTE ]
So at the risk of "repeating myself" is it about overall weight or axle weight? There is a huge difference. This point does not appear to have been raised. As I understand it a horsebox is not allowed to carry more than a certain percentage of it's gross weight behind the back axle. (60% springs to mind) Unfortunately that is where the majority of the weight is carried when horses are loaded. 
	
	
		
		
	


	





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 Two points... firstly legaly  there is a plate in the cab which will show the maximum alowable weights on front axle(1), back axle(2) a total laden  and the train weight( any trailer and the lorry) these must be complyed with .. Then there is load distrbtion.. a vehicle must not be loaded as to cause a danger to itself or other road users, im sure that could apply to a badly designed lorry,  For instance  when it was loaded it was  making it tail heavy and taking weight of the steering axle because the wheelbase is too short..too much overhang.. Or the other way, too long a wheelbase so excess weight is imposed on the front axle , hope this helps...


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## perfect11s (29 March 2009)

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So unless you have a simple 3 horse waggon with no living whatsoever it will be over 7.5 Gross weight. Have you considered the safety issues when recommending lightweight build. ie ply &amp; alloy. Would it stand up to much with a difficult horse or god forbid a road traffic  accident? 

[/ QUOTE ] what rubbish,there are plenty of 3horse lorrys with full living that have a 2 ton payload,oh and  how do you think a aircraft is built , a modern car  perhaps  and a cattle lorry are they not built very strongl  
	
	
		
		
	


	




 alloy is very strong and why would it matter about useing  light weight materials in the living, you only need to add strength to the horse area and you could make that very strong with alloy , www.tristarhorseboxes.co.uk or www.abihorseboxes.co.uk


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