# Parelli-Good or bad???



## Samantha008 (24 December 2010)

Ive just been having a conversation with a girl who really loves Parelli, all their methods and theur carrot sticks etc. I just wondered what others thought on this? 

Ive dabbled ill admit, but it didnt work for me, i felt like i was just annoying my poor horse wriggling a rope in her face!!!


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## Box_Of_Frogs (24 December 2010)

Used to be good. Now bad. I joined years ago and the original low-tech "how to do it" pack (12 little booklets) was full of detailed information on common sense, patient, consistent working with your horse to achieve understanding and respect in both horse and owner. Sadly they don't give this sort of information any more - you can pay £200 for a set of dvds that, in my opinion, are worthless because they show plenty of WHAT you can achieve but NO "how to". Money spinning now I'm afraid and if you do a search on this forum you'll find huge threads on some of the public demos the Parelli's have held, using methods that were downright barbaric. PM Papafrita for her extensive and unbiased take on Parelli. She has her own set of equipment that you can buy - I'm thinking of buying my horse her "cucumber stick" (hope I've got that right PF?) for Christmas.


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## sjmcc (24 December 2010)

i read a little about it and the more i read the more i thought mmmmm its not for me its  no more than b... s,,,, . and a good way for them to make easy money and it a cruel . id say from what i have read stay well clear spare your horse of it and save your money


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## Omarkiam (24 December 2010)

I know the methods have changed considerably but using the basic respect methods, such as teaching a horse to back up, come to you, and respect your space has worked wonders with my boy, he doesnt respond to being smacked or shouted at, makes him even more on edge and just wants to kill everyone, but some firm parelli training he responds to straight away, and it has helped me so much.

An example... teaching him to go back with Parelli worked wonders for me because he HATES being stabled, he paces, tries to jump the door, weaves, and does a whole loads of silly things! Have his parelli leadrope and headcollar meant I had a good few feet to hang over the door, so when I shook it and told him back, he would back up enough for me to safely lead him out without him bolting past me. Which means tacking up in the stable is safe. Whereas without the parelli equipment and training he would just bolt, all tacked up, and ends up found down the road with reins round his legs!

It's an each to their own kinda thing, but I think if done ''properly'' (whatever that may be), all horses appreciate and respond better to the methods than some of the more harsh methods used to break youngsters these days!


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## tallyho! (24 December 2010)

I'd say neither good nor bad (can't belive I'm posting on yet another Parelli thread ). It's a waste of time and money. 

You shouldn't be smacking or shouting at them anyway, but getting a horses respect was not invented by Pat Parelli.


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## Wagtail (24 December 2010)

Some of their philosophy is good, others are bad. I think it can wrk very well in teaching respect, though, as others have said, you don't need Parelli to teach a horse respect. But much of Parelli looks like domination to me. It also encourages people to procrastinate, giving them excuses not to just geton with things. I prefer to use my own methods that are a mixture of natural horsemanship and more traditional, and I adapt my responses to the horse. There is not 'one size fits all' with horses.

I also think Parlli is a complete rip off. My sister has probably spent in excess of £15k on their products and services. She still is not able to ride her horse without problems. I have been telling her for 2 years he has a physical problem. Now, at last she is having him investigated. Parelli concentrates too much on the psychology, when 9 times out of 10, the horse is in pain.


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## *hic* (24 December 2010)

Omarkiam said:



			I know the methods have changed considerably but using the basic respect methods, such as teaching a horse to back up, come to you, and respect your space has worked wonders with my boy, he doesnt respond to being smacked or shouted at, makes him even more on edge and just wants to kill everyone, but some firm parelli training he responds to straight away, and it has helped me so much.

An example... teaching him to go back with Parelli worked wonders for me because he HATES being stabled, he paces, tries to jump the door, weaves, and does a whole loads of silly things! Have his parelli leadrope and headcollar meant I had a good few feet to hang over the door, so when I shook it and told him back, he would back up enough for me to safely lead him out without him bolting past me. Which means tacking up in the stable is safe. Whereas without the parelli equipment and training he would just bolt, all tacked up, and ends up found down the road with reins round his legs!

It's an each to their own kinda thing, but I think if done ''properly'' (whatever that may be), all horses appreciate and respond better to the methods than some of the more harsh methods used to break youngsters these days!
		
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I'm certainly not a Parelli subscriber but strangely enough none of my horses have any problem with backing away from the door so I can enter for whatever reason, or with waiting until I have put their feed down before moving forward to eating it. They will stand to be groomed, untied, in their stables and wait, again untied, whilst I tack them up. I've had horses that behave like this for more than 40 years. It's called teaching them basic manners - most of us oldies manage it without buying branded equipment!

Still, if people need Pat Parelli to teach them that a horse should have basic manners I suppose he fulfils a purpose. Although I have to say I'd bear in mind the old saying "A fool and his money are soon parted".


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## Pipkin (24 December 2010)

Prat Parelli, Loopy Linda and their money making SCHEME - Eurgh no thanks!   Now Monty Roberts I do have respect for.


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## Flicker (24 December 2010)

Good or bad, no 'method' of horsemanship can replace good, old-fashioned time and energy invested in your horse and getting to know him or her.  Just as you wouldn't buy the Manual of Horsemanship and then decide to break a youngster based solely on what you've read and no experience, so Parelli cannot be used as a 'magic wand' towards a perfectly behaved horse.

Successful horsemen and horsewomen are successful because they have been doing it for a long time, are sensitive and intuitive, learn from their and others' mistakes and genuinely want what is best for the horse (not what is convenient for them).

Any method based on respect and knowledge can be beneficial.  Choose what approach works for your individual horse - most likely it will be a mixture of 'traditional' and 'natural' - and don't let fancy DVD's or marketing techniques persuade you to part with money or act in any way that doesn't feel 'right' for you and your horse.


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## AndySpooner (24 December 2010)

Parelli is just another 'natural' horse training programme. Lots of people on here talk an unending stream of crap about horse training and Parelli in particular.

You can spend a fortune following the program or a little.

Its not a short cut to having a well trained horse.

If you don't have a feel for horses you won't be any good at Parelli or any other training method,

If you want the gear get it off ebay, from someone who cannot do it. There are thousands.

People have tried to say it's cruel and barbaric, which is grossly hypocritical, when you read some of the conventional posts on here.

The bottom line is, if your horse is trained properly and responds properly then you will succeed in whatever sphere you choose. If its not you will never be consistently successful.

The acid test is if you can compete with the mildest of bits with nothing to artificially confine or restrain your horse, then you have trained him well and correctly. Once you need any form of restraint, you have failed, and failed dismally at whatever level you think you are at.

Most people skimp on the basics and want to rush into working at levels they have not prepaired for.

Try not to get involved in the idiotic war which errupts on here between those for and those against, both camps are fairly ignorant and ill informed about the other, its not worth the effort.


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## Booboos (24 December 2010)

Mainly ugly!


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## Milanesa (24 December 2010)

parelli in my eyes is not what i would use to train any of my horses. Basic principles they refer to were not invented by them, most are simple comon sense and respect issues. Once these are established-usually through daily interaction with your horse/pony then the other methods are not really relevant.
It is not natural training. I watched an episode not long ago with pat teaching a horse to turn without the need of bridle/mouth contact. What does he do, use a whip and hit it repeatedly in the fact to turn it!-obviously a poor horse is going to move away from this-no training there simple cruelty. A well schooled horse happily working in its bridle is a far nicer way to ask a horse to turn in my opinion. 

I am sorry i believe it is not at all natural training and as for the rope shaking to move horses back etc i would say exactly as the original poster-it just annoys the horse! 

Monty roberts on the other hand is somone who KNOWS horses he lives and breathes them-he is amazing to watch at work..


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## paisley (24 December 2010)

I think how I feel about Parelli is summed up in this video- I pinched it from CR so if the link doesent work , go to the thread about how to teach piaffe/passage in hand!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DnnQt2mjPiQ&feature=related


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## tallyho! (24 December 2010)

Out of interest - how many have tried classical methods before Parelli??


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## houndsplease (24 December 2010)

*hic* said:



			I'm certainly not a Parelli subscriber but strangely enough none of my horses have any problem with backing away from the door so I can enter for whatever reason, or with waiting until I have put their feed down before moving forward to eating it. They will stand to be groomed, untied, in their stables and wait, again untied, whilst I tack them up. I've had horses that behave like this for more than 40 years. It's called teaching them basic manners - most of us oldies manage it without buying branded equipment!
		
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it makes me laugh that people cant get there horse to do these basic things people pussy foot around and let there horses walk all over them far too much. just as with people manners cost nothing and i would definatly not pay for that set of prats to tell me to whip my horse and throw its lead rope in its face


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## rosie fronfelen (24 December 2010)

Samantha008 said:



			Ive just been having a conversation with a girl who really loves Parelli, all their methods and theur carrot sticks etc. I just wondered what others thought on this? 

Ive dabbled ill admit, but it didnt work for me, i felt like i was just annoying my poor horse wriggling a rope in her face!!!
		
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i hever believed in it in the first place- i prefer the traditional ways!


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## FanyDuChamp (24 December 2010)

Tried it. No feelings either way. Must suit some horses, mind don't like it.

Captain HATES  it. Will put with a bit, then grabs the carrot stick and throws it 
Captain was used for a demo, he made everyone quite aware of his feelings on Parelli, much to the amusement of the audience.

Fany, who is usually the most easy going horse in the world, refuses point blank to having anything to do with it.

FDC


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## PapaFrita (24 December 2010)

Box_Of_Frogs said:



			I'm thinking of buying my horse her "cucumber stick" (hope I've got that right PF?) for Christmas.
		
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Banana stick   LOL


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## tallyho! (24 December 2010)

PapaFrita said:



			Banana stick   LOL
		
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Oh, I thought the Bananastick (TM) was the more expensive version?


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## saddlesore (24 December 2010)

There are countless threads on here discussing Parelli - most of them are witch hunts. If you want to read an informative thread, do a search for the 'ask a parelli student' one. Very interesting!

As it happens I am not a parelli follower, but am interested in natural horsemanship. Richard Maxwell in particular. I feel it has given me another dimension with my horse, especially as my current horse has been VERY challenging!

I am not new to horse ownership, I have owned for 19 years, but that doesn't mean that I am set in my ways. I mean, most of us have evolved beyond jute rugs and NZ canvas rugs, therefore we must be willing to accept change in some areas at least


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## Fairynuff (24 December 2010)

Samantha008 said:



			Ive just been having a conversation with a girl who really loves Parelli, all their methods and theur carrot sticks etc. I just wondered what others thought on this? 

Ive dabbled ill admit, but it didnt work for me, i felt like i was just annoying my poor horse wriggling a rope in her face!!!
		
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I have yet to meet a Parelli horse who is sound of mind and has actually done something!


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## padderpaws (24 December 2010)

I should think you were annoying your horse by wriggling a rope in its face.  Why do you judge the Parelli methods on your own pathetic and incompetent attempts at it??? Or others for that matter.  People who are competent at the methods and fully understand the theory have got amazing horses that do amazing things, you only have to go to the N E C Parelli show to witness this first hand.  

The same can be said for Monty Roberts, Clinton Anderson, Carl Hester, Kelly Marks, Pippa funnel etc etc.  I am sure there are loads of people out there who try to train their horses using their methods and theory and completely c**K it up but we don't go on a b***h fest about them.


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## fizzer (24 December 2010)

I think the principles of all these " NH" methods great.  Its the dick at the end of the stick!! 

say no more!!


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## MissMistletoe (24 December 2010)

In the right hands, Parelli can do no harm and be an alternative activity for an owner and horse to do aside hacking and shows etc.

When done with feel, understanding and empathy, and most importantly, time and patience, Parelli can bring about great things for you and your horse.

However, I have watched many people doing Parelli, and just wanted to turn away to be honest!.

Some people just havent got the right personality for it (forget 'Horseanality'!!!) and these type of people just shouldnt touch the Parelli system with a barge pole (let alone a carrot stick!!!).

Eg, those naturally bossy types, quick fix wannabies and assuming types, and those with egos!!


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## Tinypony (24 December 2010)

Go Andy!  
	
	
		
		
	


	




Wot he said.



AndySpooner said:



			Parelli is just another 'natural' horse training programme. Lots of people on here talk an unending stream of crap about horse training and Parelli in particular.

You can spend a fortune following the program or a little.

Its not a short cut to having a well trained horse.

If you don't have a feel for horses you won't be any good at Parelli or any other training method,

If you want the gear get it off ebay, from someone who cannot do it. There are thousands.

People have tried to say it's cruel and barbaric, which is grossly hypocritical, when you read some of the conventional posts on here.

The bottom line is, if your horse is trained properly and responds properly then you will succeed in whatever sphere you choose. If its not you will never be consistently successful.

The acid test is if you can compete with the mildest of bits with nothing to artificially confine or restrain your horse, then you have trained him well and correctly. Once you need any form of restraint, you have failed, and failed dismally at whatever level you think you are at.

Most people skimp on the basics and want to rush into working at levels they have not prepaired for.

Try not to get involved in the idiotic war which errupts on here between those for and those against, both camps are fairly ignorant and ill informed about the other, its not worth the effort.
		
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## tallyho! (24 December 2010)

NH methods are classical, just spindoctored to make a bit of cash. however Parelli have gone a step too far.


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## ArabHorseLover (24 December 2010)

i have done and still do, use parelli (among other 'NH' methods) and I have had some great results - but it is each to their own. i like to think i don't just 'blindly' follow a particular method, if something doesn't work for me and my horses then i won't use it, simples!   

i must admit, i've never paid for any of the official parelli equipment, it is like anything - there are always cheaper versions about


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## Alfie&Milo (24 December 2010)

padderpaws said:



			I should think you were annoying your horse by wriggling a rope in its face.  Why do you judge the Parelli methods on your own pathetic and incompetent attempts at it??? Or others for that matter.  People who are competent at the methods and fully understand the theory have got amazing horses that do amazing things, you only have to go to the N E C Parelli show to witness this first hand.  

The same can be said for Monty Roberts, Clinton Anderson, Carl Hester, Kelly Marks, Pippa funnel etc etc.  I am sure there are loads of people out there who try to train their horses using their methods and theory and completely c**K it up but we don't go on a b***h fest about them.
		
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^^^^^^^ 
that's exactly my opinion


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## Storminateacup (26 December 2010)

Omarkiam said:



			I know the methods have changed considerably but using the basic respect methods, such as teaching a horse to back up, come to you, and respect your space has worked wonders with my boy, he doesnt respond to being smacked or shouted at, makes him even more on edge and just wants to kill everyone, but some firm parelli training he responds to straight away, and it has helped me so much.

An example... teaching him to go back with Parelli worked wonders for me because he HATES being stabled, he paces, tries to jump the door, weaves, and does a whole loads of silly things! Have his parelli leadrope and headcollar meant I had a good few feet to hang over the door, so when I shook it and told him back, he would back up enough for me to safely lead him out without him bolting past me. Which means tacking up in the stable is safe. Whereas without the parelli equipment and training he would just bolt, all tacked up, and ends up found down the road with reins round his legs!

It's an each to their own kinda thing, but I think if done ''properly'' (whatever that may be), all horses appreciate and respond better to the methods than some of the more harsh methods used to break youngsters these days!
		
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In total agreement with all that you say. I have found Parelli methods fabulous with my big lump of horse. I have the old boxed set Level 1 that i am working on. Its made a huge difference to my level of confidence with him but also with him respecting my space. I too do not like shouting at him or smacking him - makes him more bolshy and aggressive. Parelli makes him soft and compliant and gentle.


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## brucea (26 December 2010)

YAWN...Here we go again.....




			I have yet to meet a Parelli horse who is sound of mind and has actually done something!
		
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Well you're always welcome to come and meet mine.




			The acid test is if you can compete with the mildest of bits with nothing to artificially confine or restrain your horse, then you have trained him well and correctly. Once you need any form of restraint, you have failed, and failed dismally at whatever level you think you are at.
		
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I don't compete any more - becuase they usually won't let me compete without a bit or bridle.  Don't miss it really.




			If you don't have a feel for horses you won't be any good at Parelli or any other training method,
		
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Spot on. But it's always easier to blame someone or something else than accept you have no talent or sensitivity and your horse knowledge amounts to what you've read in horsey magazines.


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## LizzyandToddy (26 December 2010)

I am very much against parelli as it is nothing but a gimic. Does not mean im against natural horsemanship par-se, i love methods adopted by monty roberts and others. But Parelli are just in it for the money IMO.


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## brucea (26 December 2010)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I am very much against parelli as it is nothing but a gimic. Does not mean im against natural horsemanship par-se, i love methods adopted by monty roberts and others. But Parelli are just in it for the money IMO.
		
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Well, that is just showing your ignorance. 

I guess you must be at least a level 3 instructor, or have your horse working at liberty, to have evaluated Parelli so exhaustively and come to your obviously well informed and thoroughly evaluated opinions that it should be so dismissed.

Until you have, then best simply keep your ill informed opinions to yourself.


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## Natch (26 December 2010)

I'm suprised this topic is still coming up - these posts were the height of fashion when I joined, and were the reason I joined in 2007!

Its a training method. I have studied it, and have studied many others. I find good bits and bad bits in most of them, and my own appraoch to horses is constantly being modified the more I learn. _Most of us do this anyway, and whatever we call it and however we learn it, most of us will use similar techniques based on similar principals of being kind to the horse and getting them to understand us._

In short, its one tool in my toolbelt, and is there to be used if its appropriate for that particular situation. I think trouble brews when people blindly follow one method, and won't accept anything else - and I think you see a lot of this with parelli. Worse, you see a lot of _bad_ horsemanship under the name of Parelli, mainly because people believe, or have been led to believe that they can tackle problems which are really too big for them, with only minimal training from a book or DVD. Neither of which will give any feedback to the individual.

Brucea, I find your comment that you cannot possibly come to any conclusion about Parelli until you are level 3 instructor trained ridiculous  People are allowed to make up their own minds about different styles of horsemanship without spending years and £££s studying them.


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## caramel (26 December 2010)

A few people at my yard do parelli. Instructors come in and they use it religiously (one even went to the US to study with Pat). There was even a parelli dressage comp last year. People are very much into the rope halters and super long lead rope thingys. 

Personally I would never do it with Handy. I've watched Parelli and there's a lot I don't agree with. I like natural horsemanship, but am more of a monty roberts person. The whole thing with Robert Whitaker's stallion and the bridle really put me off.
My horse follows me around. We can do basic stuff without training.  Things like school movements and circles with him walking by my shoulder with no lead rope. He does it because he wants to.


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## sabCZa (26 December 2010)

I think it gives some people (who need it) a method - many people do not know instinctively how to relate to their horse, have confidence issues, etc. and if they have a method they behave more predictably to the horse, which the horse appreciates and they may have some good results. That said, I dont like the Parellis, or their technique.


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## brucea (27 December 2010)

Brucea, I find your comment that you cannot possibly come to any conclusion about Parelli until you are level 3 instructor trained ridiculous  People are allowed to make up their own minds about different styles of horsemanship without spending years and £££s studying them.
		
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Naturally, it was a thinly veiled attempt at sarcasm.

It's also ridiculous that people mindlessly dismiss an entire movement  when they don't obviously have no experience and know nothing about it. If the poster had actually spent time learning about it and progressing through the levels then she might be in a place to make such a dismissal - but there is far too much "Parelli is rubbish", "barefoot is rubbish", "treeless saddles are rubbish" etc.,  on this forum

it's ill informed and closed minded to do so.


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## HuntingPink (27 December 2010)

Parelli = bad. I did my L2 and was working on L3 when I woke up and realised that if I was uncomfortable with the method then my horse's must be too. Too much pressure and upping of pressure. Too much dominance. Too little say for the horse. Monty Roberts is the same but not quite as bad though he does use the Dually halter and buckstopper which are evil. 

I now prefer to use a method used by dog and dolphin trainers, positive reinforcement and clicker training. My OH introduced me to it as he's a dog trainer. After I'd stopped laughing I tried it and was really shocked that it worked. It took some time to undo the damage I did using Parelli but they're happy now which I can now see that they weren't before


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## brucea (27 December 2010)

I will freely admit that there are several aspects of Parelli that I am uncomfortable with - and there is the marketing and the cost as well - but there are a lot of good things in it so don't throw out the baby with the bathwater

I intend to find out more on the Steve Halfpeny/Silversands approach this year - I hear good things about that.

The thing I find unacceptable is people just taking polarised views of anything based on no real experience


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## Kokopelli (27 December 2010)

brucea said:



			The thing I find unacceptable is people just taking polarised views of anything based on no real experience
		
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How do you know they have no real experience? Unless you know them personally in RL and know their past experiences then you don't.

It may suprise some on here that I know a fair bit about parelli and I think its very commercialised and people try to use it as a quick fix method to their horses problems. Yes there are some good people out there who have very well trained happy horses but the majority I have met are horrible and the horses do not seem 'right'.


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## Ladyinred (27 December 2010)

Kokopelli said:



			How do you know they have no real experience? Unless you know them personally in RL and know their past experiences then you don't.

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Because the Parelli party line, in the face of criticism is always to maintain that the other person 'doesn't understand what they are seeing', or 'is ignorant' or 'has no experience to judge them by' I believe that is ingrained in all participants very early on and they chant it like a mantra.

Sadly, for the Parelli's, but happily for our horses, not all of us are so lacking in braincells that we are totally unable to deconstruct what we see and to make an educated and informed opinion as to whether or not we like it.

I have never done and will never do Parelli, but I most certainly understand the theories (flawed as they are) behind it and I also understand the effects it can and does have on a horse.. 

There is only one place for a carrot stick.. in a tasty hummous dip..


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## AndySpooner (30 December 2010)

Ladyinred said:



			Because the Parelli party line, in the face of criticism is always to maintain that the other person 'doesn't understand what they are seeing', or 'is ignorant' or 'has no experience to judge them by' I believe that is ingrained in all participants very early on and they chant it like a mantra.

Sadly, for the Parelli's, but happily for our horses, not all of us are so lacking in braincells that we are totally unable to deconstruct what we see and to make an educated and informed opinion as to whether or not we like it.

I have never done and will never do Parelli, but I most certainly understand the theories (flawed as they are) behind it and I also understand the effects it can and does have on a horse.. 

There is only one place for a carrot stick.. in a tasty hummous dip..
		
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Having been otherwise committed over the holiday period and coping with the extream weather of late, time to read over the posts on the forum has been somewhat limited.

However, this post has drawn my attention and I feel that it would be unjust not to comment, particularly as it is the last one on the thread.

I was first introduced to Parelli, nearly twenty years ago by an Australian woman who worked for us as a groom one summer. Parelli was well known in Austrailia at the time, as it still is, but practically unheard of here in the UK. Not long after, Monty Roberts washed up on these shores, and following the QED TV programme, popularized these alternative methods of horse training.

So, up until this time we were, like everyone else fairly conventional and traditional in our approach to horse keeping, but in our view using Parelli methods suited us and our horses far better than our traditional training. For all these years we have quietly got on with things and followed Parelli. I would hardly call us one of their best customers as we have spent very little on the packages and equipment, taking advantage of the numerous people who buy all the kit, but fail to get the desired results.

None the less, I follow what goes on and accept that Parelli is after all American and different in their approach to traditional UK, marketing and advertizing. However, I resent the implication that I am somehow lacking in brain cells, and have been radicalized and prone to chanting 'mantras'. It appears to me that for someone with no experience of Parelli to claim that they understand the theories, and their effects, is actually demonstrating their own stupidity and ignorance of the subject.

As I've said, we successfully, trained our horses in the traditional way but chose to go down the Parelli route, with to my mind even better results. Parelli, doesn't claim, like Monty, to have had a revelation on the plains of Nevada, and invented the language of 'equus', he credits his trainers like the Dorrance's.

As I've said before on these threads, if you haven't got 'horse sense' you will never succeed in training horses no matter what method you choose. If you want to be a traditional trainer, fair play, if you want Parelli, Silversand, Roberts, Quantum whatever, go ahead. At the end of the day, if you are a poor trainer your horse will be poorly trained, if you have a poorly trained horse, its you not the method.


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## FanyDuChamp (30 December 2010)

I think that each owner/trainer should be credited with knowing what suits the horse/s in front of them. If yours enjoys Parelli, then all well and good. Both mine are well trained and good at their jobs, but they do not like Parelli. Fany, who is the most obliging mare, just does not enjoy it. She will happily follow like a puppy, do friendly,join up etc  but she doesn't enjoy it. I feel horses learn best when they are enjoying their training.


Captain, as I said in an earlier post, was used to demo it by an instructor. He simply got bored and did not enjoy it. 

However if your horse does enjoy it and is happy to participate, what is the problem? TBH I don't think there is anything new in Parelli, Roberts etc. The vast majority of it is what we have always done with horses, pure common sense.

That said the treatment of Robert Whittaker's stallion was horrendous and would have compounded the problem rather than solved it. So perhaps it is not suited to all horses. If it suits yours, fine. If not change what you are doing. IMHO a horse enjoying its training will learn faster and retain longer. Does it really matter what name the training goes by?

FDC


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## Natch (30 December 2010)

brucea said:



			Naturally, it was a thinly veiled attempt at sarcasm.

It's also ridiculous that people mindlessly dismiss an entire movement  when they don't obviously have no experience and know nothing about it. If the poster had actually spent time learning about it and progressing through the levels then she might be in a place to make such a dismissal - but there is far too much "Parelli is rubbish", "barefoot is rubbish", "treeless saddles are rubbish" etc.,  on this forum

it's ill informed and closed minded to do so.
		
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Oh right  *mental note to pay more attention next time*

I do agree that people are far too ready to dismiss any of that "new fangled rubbish". Unfortunately the early adopters of the new fangled stuff are quite often all to happy to diss years of experience and methods which work, and it can end up all tit for tat amongst those who shout loudest  



HuntingPink said:



			Parelli = bad. I did my L2 and was working on L3 when I woke up and realised that if I was uncomfortable with the method then my horse's must be too. Too much pressure and upping of pressure. Too much dominance. Too little say for the horse. Monty Roberts is the same but not quite as bad though he does use the Dually halter and buckstopper which are evil.
		
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What makes you say the Dually halter is evil? if the buckstop is the thing which goes under the lip then I agree with you on that one, but I have heard many different opinions on the dually over the years and never one which says it is evil!  I quite like using them 

Well done on the clicker training success


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## eahotson (30 December 2010)

I had one demo and one lesson at camp.I did not enjoy either but feel that the instructors were not very good.I have had some very poor BHS instructors as well though.One man at our yard does do some Parelli groundwork with his horse from time to time.He finds it useful but is certainly not a a totally uncritical fan of Parelli.Some of the stuff he doesn't like.For what its worth,I think that when he is on track, Pat is good with the horses but he gets carried away with his own publicity sometimes and that leads to things like Catwalk, which was horrendous.We all make mistakes though and what happened to Catwalk is probably chicken feed compared with what happens round the back at many competition yards.


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## AndySpooner (30 December 2010)

Red Nosed Fany said:



			I think that each owner/trainer should be credited with knowing what suits the horse/s in front of them. If yours enjoys Parelli, then all well and good. Both mine are well trained and good at their jobs, but they do not like Parelli. Fany, who is the most obliging mare, just does not enjoy it. She will happily follow like a puppy, do friendly,join up etc  but she doesn't enjoy it. I feel horses learn best when they are enjoying their training.


Captain, as I said in an earlier post, was used to demo it by an instructor. He simply got bored and did not enjoy it. 

However if your horse does enjoy it and is happy to participate, what is the problem? TBH I don't think there is anything new in Parelli, Roberts etc. The vast majority of it is what we have always done with horses, pure common sense.

That said the treatment of Robert Whittaker's stallion was horrendous and would have compounded the problem rather than solved it. So perhaps it is not suited to all horses. If it suits yours, fine. If not change what you are doing. IMHO a horse enjoying its training will learn faster and retain longer. Does it really matter what name the training goes by?

FDC
		
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I so agree that your horse should appear to enjoy the training that you choose to undertake, what influence you as an individual, convey to the horse whilst training will, I feel, have some bearing on the perceived reaction to the training by the horse.

To claim there is anything 'new' in this so called 'natural' method of training, is indeed foolish as a cursory glance at Xenophon would demonstrate.

I would however disagree that the vast majority of what we have done with horses is 'common sense'. Sense I believe, is not common at all, in fact it is a rarity, and 'horse sense', at a premium.

The Catwalk incident, was I feel a massive error of judgement on Pat Parelli's part, where he underestimated the horse. Having said that I have seen lots of trainers being made a fool of by horses, and that I'm afraid goes with the territory.

Horses will enjoy their training, provided the trainer is confident and competant in their technique. How many times do we see trainers making a pigs ear of a training session which translates to a fairly miserable horse.


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## MiJodsR2BlinkinTite (30 December 2010)

I was wondering how long it would be before another Parelli thread popped up!!

IMO if you do what you've always done, you'll get the results you've always had. 

There's nothing can replace effort, effort, and more effort. Anything that claims to shortcut sheer damned hard work and commitment, slogging away in all winds and weathers, is a sham IME.

Anything that has the amount of hippy factor & hype that Parelli does - especially demanding large sums of money to go through the various levels - deserves taking with an extremely large pinch of salt IMO.

Having had the privilege of watching the good old fashioned "horsemen" on occasions; there's nothing trendy or fashionable with the wisdom of our elders and betters, it was/is just good plain good horse-sense, which works and will always works. Our English system of training and riding has stood us in good stead for hundreds of years ..... soooo, if it aint broke, why fix it???


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## GinnieRedwings (30 December 2010)

Box_Of_Frogs said:



			Used to be good. Now bad. I joined years ago and the original low-tech "how to do it" pack (12 little booklets) was full of detailed information on common sense, patient, consistent working with your horse to achieve understanding and respect in both horse and owner. Sadly they don't give this sort of information any more - you can pay £200 for a set of dvds that, in my opinion, are worthless because they show plenty of WHAT you can achieve but NO "how to".
		
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Naturally said:



			Its a training method. I have studied it, and have studied many others. I find good bits and bad bits in most of them, and my own appraoch to horses is constantly being modified the more I learn. _Most of us do this anyway, and whatever we call it and however we learn it, most of us will use similar techniques based on similar principals of being kind to the horse and getting them to understand us._

In short, its one tool in my toolbelt, and is there to be used if its appropriate for that particular situation. I think trouble brews when people blindly follow one method, and won't accept anything else - and I think you see a lot of this with parelli. Worse, you see a lot of _bad_ horsemanship under the name of Parelli, mainly because people believe, or have been led to believe that they can tackle problems which are really too big for them, with only minimal training from a book or DVD. Neither of which will give any feedback to the individual.
		
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sabCZa said:



			I think it gives some people (who need it) a method - many people do not know instinctively how to relate to their horse, have confidence issues, etc. and if they have a method they behave more predictably to the horse, which the horse appreciates and they may have some good results. That said, I dont like the Parellis, or their technique.
		
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eahotson said:



			I had one demo and one lesson at camp.I did not enjoy either but feel that the instructors were not very good.I have had some very poor BHS instructors as well though.One man at our yard does do some Parelli groundwork with his horse from time to time.He finds it useful but is certainly not a a totally uncritical fan of Parelli.Some of the stuff he doesn't like.For what its worth,I think that when he is on track, Pat is good with the horses but he gets carried away with his own publicity sometimes and that leads to things like Catwalk, which was horrendous.We all make mistakes though and what happened to Catwalk is probably chicken feed compared with what happens round the back at many competition yards.
		
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Loving the other people post recycling 

Several people I feel are making great sense here, especially AndySpooner & Naturally.

My 2p worth is that there was Pat Parelli pre-Linda, basically cow boy methods (that's quite rough stuff, tying up legs & "breaking" horses) BUT with a very interesting FLAIR for better training methods & the understanding of "horsenalities" and how different horses will work for different types of stimulations, which is really interesting - other trainers do not explain this very well. Monty Roberts, for instance, although he MUST have a feel for the fact that all horses are not the same and therefore instinctively, because he is a good horseman, deal differently with different horses, does not explain that in detail. 

 - and the Parelli money making affair led by the brains of the outfit, Linda Parelli, which makes detailed explanation of "how to" very difficult to access unless you enter the "clan" and part with a lot of money as Box Of Frogs said.

As Naturally said it is but one tool in my toolkit - like clicker training, which someone mentioned and BTW works beautifully with some horses & not at all with others (!) with all variations in between.

I will however credit Parelli with helping me articulate my previously vague understanding of what different stimuli will motivate different types of horses to work for me.


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## FanyDuChamp (30 December 2010)

AndySpooner said:



			I so agree that your horse should appear to enjoy the training that you choose to undertake, what influence you as an individual, convey to the horse whilst training will, I feel, have some bearing on the perceived reaction to the training by the horse.
 Totally agree, the reason I agree to Captain being used for the demo was that I was interested in NH and Parelli in particular. I wanted a way to engage his mind as well as his body without forcing issues.  

To claim there is anything 'new' in this so called 'natural' method of training, is indeed foolish as a cursory glance at Xenophon would demonstrate.
 Totally

I would however disagree that the vast majority of what we have done with horses is 'common sense'. Sense I believe, is not common at all, in fact it is a rarity, and 'horse sense', at a premium.
You could be right, unfortunately.

The Catwalk incident, was I feel a massive error of judgement on Pat Parelli's part, where he underestimated the horse. 
Sorry but " a massive error of judgement" Does not cut it. Abuse is what it was, we all underestimate horses at times, we do not all abuse them. Captain, my lad, was very head shy when we got him, so much so that it would take up to 3/4hr to get his bridle on. It took months of patience and calm persistence to get him to accept the bridle easily. I can't help but feel that Parelli just reinforced Catwalk's fear and exacerbated the problem.  

Horses will enjoy their training, provided the trainer is confident and competant in their technique. How many times do we see trainers making a pigs ear of a training session which translates to a fairly miserable horse.
Unfortunately all too true.

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Horses are individuals and should be treated as such. NH is a wonderful tool in the right hands. However like any tool it can be misused to the detriment of the horse. This is equally relevant to other means of training.
FDC


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## GinnieRedwings (30 December 2010)

MiJodsR2BlinkinTite said:



			Our English system of training and riding has stood us in good stead for hundreds of years ..... soooo, if it aint broke, why fix it???
		
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That's a WHOLE different subject, but I do have to say ^^^ that isn't quite true... 

just look at the number of "reject" horses about, which the good ol' fashioned system of training has failed miserably, because of misunderstanding fear/pain/instinctive behaviour for wilfullness and taking the Mick, nothing that a good "showing who's boss" - good old fashion style - would not solve, and if it didn't it was because the horse was nuts and needed shooting. Perfectly good horses, ruined by unsympathetic management and training.

Thank God for the Parellis/Monty Roberts/Richard Maxwell/Andrew McLean/Alexandra Kurland and all the others for bringing about progress, flawed as it may sometimes be...


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## fidleyspromise (30 December 2010)

It's the same as everything.  Take what you can from it and dump the rest.
I have played the parelli games with my mare and although she doesn't enjoy all of them - I play the ones she does enjoy as a treat and a break from riding. 
OTOH - I saw one owner doing "parelli" with his highland and the horse was getting more and more bargy - simply because the owner was not getting his timings right and as a novice, he expected to be able to read/watch DvDs and put everything into practice and it would work.  The next day, the owner wasn't up and YM got very firm with horse.  Owner was up following day and really chuffed because the horse had behaved immaculately and he was sure it was because of his "training".

Everything has it's place but you still have to know what your doing and I think parelli could be useful with an experienced person whereby in the hands of a novice, it can be dangerous!  This goes the same for join-up (amount of people missing the signs), traditional methods etc.

Tools of the trade are useful but until you are 100% confident that what your doing will help and not hinder, you're best to get some experienced help, is MHO.


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## eahotson (30 December 2010)

Like the Parelli system, the English system is as good as the teacher/practitioner.I have a traditional old fashioned insructor who is marvellous, but I ahve met many very poor ones as well.Also, we do come back to people who have not come from a horsey backgound.Usually they have learned to ride in a riding school.Me for instance.Nobody taught me how to teach a horse to say stand by a mounting block or load on a trailer.Let alone how to deal with anything else.This is where the Nh people really come into their own.Not saying thats all they can do though.


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## Pacey (30 December 2010)

AndySpooner said:



			As I've said before on these threads, if you haven't got 'horse sense' you will never succeed in training horses no matter what method you choose. If you want to be a traditional trainer, fair play, if you want Parelli, Silversand, Roberts, Quantum whatever, go ahead. At the end of the day, if you are a poor trainer your horse will be poorly trained, if you have a poorly trained horse, its you not the method.
		
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Yes, yes, yes.


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## eahotson (30 December 2010)

I must say, this is a first though. A rational discussion on Parelli on this forum.Its usually one half banging on about how he is the devil incarnate and the other half God incarnate.Must be due to Tounge in cheek.


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## Tinypony (30 December 2010)

I can't read that green writing at all!


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## AndySpooner (30 December 2010)

Tinypony said:



			I can't read that green writing at all!
		
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Awful, isn't it, just highlight it as though you are going to delete it and it becomes readable.


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## FanyDuChamp (30 December 2010)

AndySpooner said:



			Awful, isn't it, just highlight it as though you are going to delete it and it becomes readable.
		
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Sorry was just trying to reply to your essay.
FDC


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## FanyDuChamp (30 December 2010)

Tinypony said:



			I can't read that green writing at all!
		
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Can't see your problem. Easy enough to read, maybe just me.
FDC


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## Echo Bravo (30 December 2010)

So Andy Spooner, if you can buy the gear cheap off ebay as there is thousands, does that mean there are thousands of people who cann't use it or put it on ebay, because they found it rubbish and trying to get some of their hard earned cash back. I myself, like to read Bill Dorrance and Henry Wynmalen who was first published in 1938 and I don't need gear or gadgets. The horse should always come first and worked with sensativty and not pushed beyond with what it can cope with at that time.


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## Ladyinred (30 December 2010)

Echo Bravo said:



			So Andy Spooner, if you can buy the gear cheap off ebay as there is thousands, does that mean there are thousands of people who cann't use it or put it on ebay, because they found it rubbish and trying to get some of their hard earned cash back. I myself, like to read Bill Dorrance and Henry Wynmalen who was first published in 1938 and I don't need gear or gadgets. The horse should always come first and worked with sensativty and not pushed beyond with what it can cope with at that time.
		
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Henry Wynmalen should be compulsory reading. One of the true unsung greats.


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## Tinypony (30 December 2010)

Must be the screen I'm using, but I can't read the green writing so will go and highlight that post.
I think what Andy means is that you can buy equipment that is just like Parelli stuff from EBay for a fraction of the price.  There are loads of companies doing rope halters, nice ropes and training sticks, although you have to be careful about quality.  Having said that, Parelli rope halters are a dodgy fit anyway, Lodge Ropes do lovely halters that are correctly proportioned.


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## AndySpooner (30 December 2010)

Yes, there is stacks of genuine Parelli equipment on ebay.

Rather proves my point that a bad workman always blames his tools.


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## xmonax (30 December 2010)

Samantha008 said:



			Ive just been having a conversation with a girl who really loves Parelli, all their methods and theur carrot sticks etc. I just wondered what others thought on this? 

Ive dabbled ill admit, but it didnt work for me, i felt like i was just annoying my poor horse wriggling a rope in her face!!!
		
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NOT AT ALL! has really angered me this year  all that with robert whittakers Catwalk and the blind horse


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## AndySpooner (30 December 2010)

The fuss about equipment is irrelavent really. We are only talking about halters and ropes. If you want to pay extra for a logo, please yourself.


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## fjordhorsefan (30 December 2010)

I dabbled with Australian NH a few years ago, with my first horse - half an hour and a fair few quid wasted  Now I have learned myself what all those exercises were for (it never told me in the book!) I can see that my horse did not need it doing at all!  Anyway, the carrot stick thingy is very handy for herding cows about


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## AndySpooner (30 December 2010)

fjordhorsefan said:



			I dabbled with Australian NH a few years ago, with my first horse - half an hour and a fair few quid wasted  Now I have learned myself what all those exercises were for (it never told me in the book!) I can see that my horse did not need it doing at all!  Anyway, the carrot stick thingy is very handy for herding cows about

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Half an hour. Head, desk, thump.

I'm going down the pub.


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## Tinypony (30 December 2010)

Can I join you Andy?  "Thud, thud".


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## fburton (30 December 2010)

One of the things that bothers me about Parelli (possibly the main one) is the way the actions don't match the words - saying one thing and doing another. He's by no means the only offender in this regard, but is perhaps one of the more egregious. The Catwalk fiasco is an obvious example. The Parelli Horse Training website declares: "your horse training problems are solved naturally and without force or punishment" - and yet this was plainly not the case in the RFOH July 9th show. And this wasn't an isolated incident. I've seen other videos e.g. trailer loading & Barney where the horse was punished inappropriately and where force was used. "Love, language and leadership" (whatever it actually means) sounds really good though!

Maybe Pat does believe he made a mistake in doing what he did to Catwalk beyond what he wrote in his 'Open Letter' on YouTube. If that is the case, it would be nice (and honourable) if he were to admit that openly. Or maybe he truly believes he did nothing wrong. 

Although one shouldn't condemn or dismiss the whole PNH programme because of some very public, unacknowledged mistakes by its leading representatives, it does rather take the gloss off it, in my opinion.


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