# Positive navicular stories please



## ponymum (24 July 2017)

My horse has just been diagnosed with degeneration of the navicular bone after a short (1 month) history of lameness prompting nerve blocks, x-rays and MRI. It's primarily in one foot - right fore, with some early changes in the other front foot. He is a 13 year-old TB x warmblood gelding and was having his first season of BE, having completed two BE90s, two BE100s and the hope of moving up to novice by the end of the season. He has typical TB feet - flat, low heels and tendency to long toes, all prime risk factors for navicular. Fortunately, the MRI showed no tear of the DDFT, but there is some adhesion of the tendon to the navicular bone, causing some lack of uniform elasticity. The vets have recommended shoeing in bar shoes and putting him on Bute initially and continuing to work him. However, he had his shoes off for the MRI and it was a week before he was reshod with the bar shoes, in which time his feet basically disintegrated with very little left to nail to. The farrier did, however, manage to get the shoes on last Thursday and he has managed to keep them on. He is though, still lame, even on two Bute a day, which I realise isn't long, but how long before he can be expected to be sound? I'm not sure if it's soreness because of going without shoes, or the navicular itself making him lame.
What are people's experiences with navicular?  I am getting the vet back but she won't be here until Wednesday so I'm just looking for some positive stories. 
Having searched the Forum, I am aware of barefoot rehab and it's something I am considering, but, with his feet just crumbling in a week, I am concentrating on improving them with nutrition first before this is realistically possible.
TIA


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## Marmaduke (24 July 2017)

My TB was diagnosed with navicular age 14 on x ray (lots of holes!) but on mri this was said to be historic not current and problem was coffin joints. He was BE eventing but I decided to stop jumping him to save his joints. He has the flattest feet possible and windsucks so constant rocking does not help! I now have him in special shoes provided by a Lamborn farrier which are the front curved part metal and a plastic type pad underneath the whole lot which extends out under the frog. These have helped my horse a lot who is sound and competing dressage, so look at all shoeing options not just heart bars which may work short term but in the long run will crush the heels. Initially I also put him on a galium nitrate supplement imported from US which may have helped.(Google navicular and galium nitrate). I also have him on Formula 4 feet supplement and I never have any problems with crumbling hooves. My horse is out in all sorts of mud etc but his hooves are good and strong.  Whether it is just the biotin or all the other stuff who knows! Just keep on top of the foot balance. If everything is inflamed it will take a bit of time to settle and with flat feet and no shoes the feet will be adjusting. I think my horse was off for 2 months and then shod and then I started working him again. Hope this helps.


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## ycbm (24 July 2017)

Rockleyfarm.blogspot.com

I hope that your vets have told you that the condition of the navicular bone itself is very rarely the cause of the lameness?


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## ponymum (24 July 2017)

Many thanks. That's interesting Marmaduke. Maybe I'm being impatient. I suppose I was a little optimistic as he suddenly went lame and the vet said that the kind of damage he has hadn't happened quickly, but over the course of several months so the condition of the bone wasn't necessarily the cause of his pain. Surprisingly, there was very little inflammation apparent on the MRI and I was hopeful that he would at least be sound on the Bute but sadly not.
ycbm, yes, I have seen the Rockley Farm blog , thank you, and I am considering it, as I said in my original post.
My other dilemma is about his diet. He is currently fed Alfa-A Oil, Speedibeet and Spillers balancer. I have recently added NAF Pro Feet as I was given some. I know alfalfa is a little controversial but I need something that will keep weight on and not fizz him up. I had a pony on Formula 4 Feet and it hyped him up a bit so I'm a bit reluctant to try that. I understand the Equimins and Pro Hoof are good. Which do people recommend as I would like to sort out the nutrition now to give him a fighting chance if I go down the barefoot route?


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## Puddleduck (24 July 2017)

My warmblood dressage horse was diagnosed by X-ray mid September last year with navicular deterioration in his right fore. MRI on 20th October showed navicular bursitis, a tear in the DDFT with granulated tissue adhesion and collateral ligament damage. 
We were sent home with a very poor prognosis and told box rest and time would show if I had a hope of riding him again or a chronically lame horse. He had a bar shoe put on and we started the box rest however I wasn't convinced it was the right thing for him. He was landing laterally on that foot even in walk and the foot flared as it tried to balance itself. 
I researched Rockley Farm after talking to a friend who had experience of barefoot. At the end of November we had a review with our vet who asked me what my thoughts were on how we should proceed (he knew I would have done some research but not that it would be on barefoot). I said straight away I thought barefoot could be worth a shot and I'd like us to look at sending him to Rockley. My vet was happy to support this so I contacted Nic Barker to see if she would take him. She had a 10 week waiting list so I thought I would get the shoes off and make a start myself. 
Shoes came off on 30th November and he was like a different horse. All his silly sharpness went and he stopped over reacting to noises and rearing. We started walking in hand, just 5 minutes daily to start adding 5 minutes every week. His frame changed, instead of holding himself tight through his shoulders he walked out with his back swinging. By Feb this year we were doing an hour a day walking and at the start of March went back to our vet and were given the go ahead to start ridden walk,plus restricted turnout. 
He's now out in a small paddock all afternoon and hacked out most evenings. Yesterday we did a 5 mile hack with a couple of long trots and he felt fantastic, we have also ventured back into the school to do some pole work. We do use boots in front for most hacks but he goes in them happily and I actually feel much more secure on the roads compared to shoes. 
I am hoping we can go back to our vet in a couple of weeks and get the go ahead to do more in the school and maybe introduce some short canters on the straight. 
I have no doubt that barefoot has been the right route for my boy although it has been hard work and not everyone around me has been supportive of my choice.


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## ILuvCowparsely (25 July 2017)

ponymum said:



			My horse has just been diagnosed with degeneration of the navicular bone after a short (1 month) history of lameness prompting nerve blocks, x-rays and MRI. It's primarily in one foot - right fore, with some early changes in the other front foot. He is a 13 year-old TB x warmblood gelding and was having his first season of BE, having completed two BE90s, two BE100s and the hope of moving up to novice by the end of the season. He has typical TB feet - flat, low heels and tendency to long toes, all prime risk factors for navicular. Fortunately, the MRI showed no tear of the DDFT, but there is some adhesion of the tendon to the navicular bone, causing some lack of uniform elasticity. The vets have recommended shoeing in bar shoes and putting him on Bute initially and continuing to work him. However, he had his shoes off for the MRI and it was a week before he was reshod with the bar shoes, in which time his feet basically disintegrated with very little left to nail to. The farrier did, however, manage to get the shoes on last Thursday and he has managed to keep them on. He is though, still lame, even on two Bute a day, which I realise isn't long, but how long before he can be expected to be sound? I'm not sure if it's soreness because of going without shoes, or the navicular itself making him lame.
What are people's experiences with navicular?  I am getting the vet back but she won't be here until Wednesday so I'm just looking for some positive stories. 
Having searched the Forum, I am aware of barefoot rehab and it's something I am considering, but, with his feet just crumbling in a week, I am concentrating on improving them with nutrition first before this is realistically possible.
TIA
		
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my friends horse  had navicular .   He lived till his 30's and just had natural balance shoes but don't know what treatment if any she gave him.


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## ponymum (25 July 2017)

Thanks for this, that sounds encouraging. I'm a little reluctant to take his shoes off straight away, after his feet breaking up so quickly, but the weather had been really dry and the ground was hard. He is turned out 24 hours as the vets didn't think box rest was right for him. I'm hoping that if I leave it till later in the year to take his shoes off, his feet may be stronger and the ground a little softer.
Did you ever get to Rockley or have you managed to do it yourself? Have you modified his diet at all and how good were his feet to start? Sorry for all the questions, just trying to get as much info as  I can. 


Puddleduck said:



			My warmblood dressage horse was diagnosed by X-ray mid September last year with navicular deterioration in his right fore. MRI on 20th October showed navicular bursitis, a tear in the DDFT with granulated tissue adhesion and collateral ligament damage. 
We were sent home with a very poor prognosis and told box rest and time would show if I had a hope of riding him again or a chronically lame horse. He had a bar shoe put on and we started the box rest however I wasn't convinced it was the right thing for him. He was landing laterally on that foot even in walk and the foot flared as it tried to balance itself. 
I researched Rockley Farm after talking to a friend who had experience of barefoot. At the end of November we had a review with our vet who asked me what my thoughts were on how we should proceed (he knew I would have done some research but not that it would be on barefoot). I said straight away I thought barefoot could be worth a shot and I'd like us to look at sending him to Rockley. My vet was happy to support this so I contacted Nic Barker to see if she would take him. She had a 10 week waiting list so I thought I would get the shoes off and make a start myself. 
Shoes came off on 30th November and he was like a different horse. All his silly sharpness went and he stopped over reacting to noises and rearing. We started walking in hand, just 5 minutes daily to start adding 5 minutes every week. His frame changed, instead of holding himself tight through his shoulders he walked out with his back swinging. By Feb this year we were doing an hour a day walking and at the start of March went back to our vet and were given the go ahead to start ridden walk,plus restricted turnout. 
He's now out in a small paddock all afternoon and hacked out most evenings. Yesterday we did a 5 mile hack with a couple of long trots and he felt fantastic, we have also ventured back into the school to do some pole work. We do use boots in front for most hacks but he goes in them happily and I actually feel much more secure on the roads compared to shoes. 
I am hoping we can go back to our vet in a couple of weeks and get the go ahead to do more in the school and maybe introduce some short canters on the straight. 
I have no doubt that barefoot has been the right route for my boy although it has been hard work and not everyone around me has been supportive of my choice.
		
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## ihatework (25 July 2017)

I would encourage you to look at something like this as an interim measure, whilst also improving hoof quality

http://www.equinefootclinic.co.uk/EFC_Pad.html


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## PoppyAnderson (25 July 2017)

You need to very quickly start reading up on this subject and take your horse barefoot. It is the ONLY chance you have of keeping this horse sound and alive quite frankly. Remedial shoeing is the quickest route to pts. Your whole regime needs an overhaul. Vets are light years behind in their thinking I'm afraid and you need to fly in the face of everything they and farriers will tell you. In a nutshell, you need to:

*get a recommended barefoot trimmer on board (not a farrier)
*totally change the diet (alfalfa is awful stuff, spillers and most commercial feeds is full of sh 1 t)
*buy hoof boots 

ooooooor, just send to Rockley and let them start you off!


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## PoppyAnderson (25 July 2017)

Diet: you need to drop the sugar levels as low as possible (<10%), not feed alfalfa and buy high quality feed with no fillers (which leaves very little choice basically). A chaff (non molassed, no rape seed oil, so really only Thunderbrooks and Agrobs), micronised linseed, a beet that's not sugared (quick beet, speedibeet) and a good quality supplement (forage first, pro earth or equimins hoof mender).


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## Casey76 (25 July 2017)

Jeez - talk about being fatalistic Poppy.  No need to scare the OP!

OP, if your horses feet are crumbling away, it's definitely worth getting some hoof boots for the interim period.  They will make your horse comfortable, and attain the most important thing, a heel first landing.

For beginners, cavallo simples are a good bet.  They are easy to get on and off, there are no complicated strapping systems, and the sizing is fairly forgiving.  Get a size larger than you think you need, and you can put some EVA pads in them, which will a) increase the horses comfort if he has thin soles and b) take up a little more space to stop the foot from sliding around too much.  I use these: https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B00E96UHC2/ref=s9u_simh_gw_i1?ie=UTF8&fpl=fresh&pd_rd_i=B00E96UH8Q&pd_rd_r=QRSTMC2KFB3TTX5QNXQ1&pd_rd_w=VZx3h&pd_rd_wg=jkW6a&pf_rd_m=A3P5ROKL5A1OLE&pf_rd_s=&pf_rd_r=Z9FPV1T43WJGEPYJD1TP&pf_rd_t=36701&pf_rd_p=e586113b-1187-49e7-b25c-760581bc9374&pf_rd_i=desktop&th=1 EVA mats. I can usually get at least 6 pads out of each mat, with plenty left over for extra frog supports if needed.

You may be amazed at how much more comfortable your horse is in boots with appropriate support.  There are a good many communities on FB selling second hand boots, because feet size and shape change often. You should be able to get a good pair of second had boots for less than a set of shoes (and they should last a few months), so while the initial outlay may be a little daunting, they are a good long term investment!

I would agree that in the medium-long term, shoeing is not the best way to treat navicular syndrome (aka caudal foot pain) - the damage to the navicular bone that is seen on the MRI is very rarely the cause of the pain, but an under developed digital cushion and bruising to the internal structures is.  This is very treatable!  Don't despair!

You do not *need* a barefoot trimmer, though a professional trimmer may be more ameanable to using boots and pads than a traditional farrier - but don't knock all farriers, some are also very on the ball with non-shoeing methods too.  The important thing is to get the back of the foot working comfortably, with decontraction of the heels and building up the digital cushion.  It takes time, and using boots makes it much easier to tailor the padding/no padding etc as needed, taking the toes back, adjusting the heel height/balance, rather than lopping off a whole lot of hoof once every 6 weeks.  Also I don't believe you can achieve the correct stimulation needed while in shoes (even with bar/wedge shoes and padding).

The crumbling feet are something you are going to have to put up with I'm afraid.  There isn't anything you can put on them which will immediately improve them, you need to grow a good hoof by improving nutrition.  As for any horse (not just ones without shoes!) a low sugar and starch diet is best, with balanced minerals.  If you ned extra energy or conditioning, use micronized linseed.  Minerals without added iron are the best.  There are several sources now, including Forage Plus and Pro Earth (which are powder) and Equimins (I think!!!) pelleted - this contains a certain amount of binder, but for the amount you are feeding it is negligible. 

Don't let yourself be bullied into one decision or another; take some time to a) breathe! and b) do a little research.  It isn't all doom and gloom, but there is no instant fix either.

Good luck!


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## ycbm (25 July 2017)

PoppyAnderson said:



			Diet: you need to drop the sugar levels as low as possible (<10%), not feed alfalfa and buy high quality feed with no fillers (which leaves very little choice basically). A chaff (non molassed, no rape seed oil, so really only Thunderbrooks and Agrobs), micronised linseed, a beet that's not sugared (quick beet, speedibeet) and a good quality supplement (forage first, pro earth or equimins hoof mender).
		
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Rockley Farm feed alfalfa pellets. I've never had any problem with a barefoot feeding rapeseed oil. My friend and I have never fed linseed (it's damned expensive!) and we have rock crunchers.

Whatever supplement you choose, it needs to have NO iron and NO manganese, which I think limits you to the three mentioned, though its Forage Plus, not Forage First PA , and personally I prefer to feed yeast as well, as does Rockley, so if you choose one without yeast in it you would need to add that.


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## FfionWinnie (25 July 2017)

PoppyAnderson said:



			You need to very quickly start reading up on this subject and take your horse barefoot. It is the ONLY chance you have of keeping this horse sound and alive quite frankly. Remedial shoeing is the quickest route to pts. Your whole regime needs an overhaul. Vets are light years behind in their thinking I'm afraid and you need to fly in the face of everything they and farriers will tell you. In a nutshell, you need to:

*get a recommended barefoot trimmer on board (not a farrier)
*totally change the diet (alfalfa is awful stuff, spillers and most commercial feeds is full of sh 1 t)
*buy hoof boots 

ooooooor, just send to Rockley and let them start you off!
		
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Is that true?  Nearly every horse that goes to Rockley have remedial shoes some of them utterly horrific (in my eyes!) but they usually report that in the short term the horse was sound and the feet improve quickly on the Rockley regime. 

So is it the case that you could use remedial shoes in the short term to improve the horn without causing the horse to drop dead...

You wouldn't find anyone more pro barefoot than I - I have many others in full work without shoes, but having recently tried to take my WB BF, I've realised it isn't always simple and you need to think outside the box in some cases. My aim is to get him BF at some point, but it's not going to be this year.


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## PoppyAnderson (25 July 2017)

Casey76 said:



			You do not *need* a barefoot trimmer, though a professional trimmer may be more ameanable to using boots and pads than a traditional farrier - but don't knock all farriers, some are also very on the ball with non-shoeing methods too. 
!
		
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The vast majority of farriers will rasp hoof walls and trim frogs and want to make feet look aesthetically pleasing. Yes you can ask/tell them not to but the OP won't yet know how to guide a farrier and so the best thing to do in these circs is just get a barefoot trimmer.


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## PoppyAnderson (25 July 2017)

ycbm said:



			Rockley Farm feed alfalfa pellets. I've never had any problem with a barefoot feeding rapeseed oil. My friend and I have never fed linseed (it's damned expensive!) and we have rock crunchers.

Whatever supplement you choose, it needs to have NO iron and NO manganese, which I think limits you to the three mentioned, though its Forage Plus, not Forage First PA , and personally I prefer to feed yeast as well, as does Rockley, so if you choose one without yeast in it you would need to add that.
		
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Many horses are sensative to alfalfa, so it's easier to advise to just miss it out altogether at first. Micronised linseed is one of the most cost effective feeds out there. You only feed small amounts so it lasts forever. I always get first and plus the wrong way round!


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## tallyho! (25 July 2017)

Barefoot is the only solution that seems to work for navicular.


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## PoppyAnderson (25 July 2017)

FfionWinnie said:



			Is that true?  .
		
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Is what true?


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## tallyho! (25 July 2017)

tallyho! said:



			Barefoot is the only solution that seems to work for navicular.
		
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Or a least time on NO shoes whatsoever.

(Being that shoes are the cause of navicular 99% of the time)


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## PoppyAnderson (25 July 2017)

tallyho! said:



			Or a least time on NO shoes whatsoever.

(Being that shoes are the cause of navicular 99% of the time)
		
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But then why would you ever go back?


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## Sam_J (25 July 2017)

PoppyAnderson said:



			*get a recommended barefoot trimmer on board (not a farrier)


ooooooor, just send to Rockley and let them start you off!
		
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Depends on the farrier.


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## tallyho! (26 July 2017)

PoppyAnderson said:



			But then why would you ever go back?
		
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Exactly...


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## FfionWinnie (26 July 2017)

PoppyAnderson said:



			Is what true?
		
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Presumably you don't know since you've cut off the rest of my post which explains what I was asking you to clarify!


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## PoppyAnderson (26 July 2017)

FfionWinnie said:



			Presumably you don't know since you've cut off the rest of my post which explains what I was asking you to clarify!
		
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What a ridiculous thing to say. Of course I know about what I said. I'm just asking you to clarify your question as it wasn't clear and the rest of your post didn't make it obvious either.


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## PoppyAnderson (26 July 2017)

FfionWinnie said:



			So is it the case that you could use remedial shoes in the short term to improve the horn without causing the horse to drop dead.
		
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Obviously the horse isn't going to drop dead but then that isn't what I said. I said it's the quickest route to being pts. Which is absolutely true because the lameness and problems will escalate with remedial shoeing and you will end up with a crippled horse ultimately.


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## FfionWinnie (26 July 2017)

PoppyAnderson said:



			You need to very quickly start reading up on this subject and take your horse barefoot. *****It is the ONLY chance you have of keeping this horse sound and alive quite frankly. Remedial shoeing is the quickest route to pts.*****
		
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No more ridiculous than these frightening statements you chose to make and have still not actually shown any proof for!

Many many horses have remedial shoes. Many many horses do not die because of them. While I am 100% pro barefoot my recent experiences have shown me it's not as clear cut as your post makes out.


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## ponymum (26 July 2017)

Many thanks for all your replies. I didn't mean to start a war!!! I think I'll back out quietly now. There is no need to convince me of the benefits of going barefoot, I'm well aware of the positive outcomes and it is what I want to do, just not quite at this moment in time. Hopefully he won't keel over just yet while I try and improve the horn quality and get hold of some hoof boots for his tender days to come.
Thanks all


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## PoppyAnderson (26 July 2017)

FfionWinnie said:



			No more ridiculous than these frightening statements you chose to make and have still not actually shown any proof for!

Many many horses have remedial shoes. Many many horses do not die because of them. While I am 100% pro barefoot my recent experiences have shown me it's not as clear cut as your post makes out.
		
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They're not ridiculous and I don't have to prove anything - I'm not in a court room on the stand. Go and educate yourself about it. Remedial shoeing never works in terms of bringing a horse back to useful soundness. So ok, they don't die (obviously) but it is not the road to soundness and therefore they will eventually end up as a field ornament or pts.


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## Theocat (26 July 2017)

PoppyAnderson said:



			Remedial shoeing never works in terms of bringing a horse back to useful soundness.
		
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I'd like to see your sources for that, please. I am researching this at the moment.

I suspect it would be useful evidence for anyone arguing with a vet about taking shoes off.


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## alibali (26 July 2017)

ponymum said:



			Many thanks for all your replies. I didn't mean to start a war!!! I think I'll back out quietly now. There is no need to convince me of the benefits of going barefoot, I'm well aware of the positive outcomes and it is what I want to do, just not quite at this moment in time. Hopefully he won't keel over just yet while I try and improve the horn quality and get hold of some hoof boots for his tender days to come.
Thanks all 

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Sounds like a very sensible course of action, address diet and ensure you have the means to make them comfortable in the short term and take shoes off once the grounds more forgiving


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## PoppyAnderson (26 July 2017)

Theocat said:



			I'd like to see your sources for that, please. I am researching this at the moment.

I suspect it would be useful evidence for anyone arguing with a vet about taking shoes off.
		
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Pointless debating this with 90% of vets and farriers, as they have a financial interest in recommending the remedial shoeing route.


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## PoppyAnderson (26 July 2017)

Theocat said:



			I'd like to see your sources for that, please. I am researching this at the moment.

I suspect it would be useful evidence for anyone arguing with a vet about taking shoes off.
		
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Have you read all the rockley case studies? Case after case of horses on the verge of being pts after trying everything. Have you read all the accounts on this forum of the same thing? Have you had horses yourself or looked after them or seen friends horses that have been pts after remedial shoeing? Have you seen any horse ever return to full soundness in the long term after remedial shoeing?


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## FfionWinnie (26 July 2017)

PoppyAnderson said:



			They're not ridiculous and I don't have to prove anything - I'm not in a court room on the stand. Go and educate yourself about it. Remedial shoeing never works in terms of bringing a horse back to useful soundness. So ok, they don't die (obviously) but it is not the road to soundness and therefore they will eventually end up as a field ornament or pts.
		
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If you want to be taken seriously you have to back up statements of fact. What you meant was "I think" or "in my opinion".  

Op you absolutely  haven't started a war you've asked some extremely important questions which I have also been wondering about myself and am still wondering


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## ester (26 July 2017)

I'm going to ignore the rest  

ponymum I've become a bit geeky about this but try to stay pragmatic. As a scientist I would love for there to be a good quantity of peer reviewed research into the subject, but unfortunately there just isn't so we can't! 

My personal view is that for most horses taking shoes off probably represents their best option for long term soundness, other options may well better if only looking at immediate future. However not all horses come sound from doing it, most undoubtably improve and I suspect longer term they would be worse in shoes but it isn't totally magic. Not all horses will be rock crunching either, or self trimming - my own who had a different diagnosis- is neither of these things but has still managed to hunt bootless etc. 

Now we have a plethora of boot and pad options that there should be something to suit, even if required for turnout too in the first instance. This means that it should be possible to keep the horse relativley comfortable through the transition (with the use of bute if required too). 

Fwiw I do also quite like the idea of the shoes that IHW posted, as a bit of a happy medium to improve the heels in a shoe if booting options really can't work. 

If you do decide to carry on diet, movement (suitable for level), trim and a whole big heap of patience.


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## Tiddlypom (26 July 2017)

PoppyAnderson said:



			Pointless debating this with 90% of vets and farriers, as they have a financial interest in recommending the remedial shoeing route.
		
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Eep. I've heard of the term 'barefoot taliban' on HHO, but hadn't really come across one in action before on here.

TP, who keeps her horses unshod when I think it to be best, and who trusts her vets and farrier, who think the same as I do. Gullible naïve woman that I am .


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## ester (26 July 2017)

It's been a while since the term got used or was appropriate too which is a good thing. 

I have a farrier atm, I gave him a list in case  he's fairly obedient. 
vet has sent a fair few to rockley but wasn't sure with our dx if it would work, but was happy we gave it a go- it does mean I point out his feet for all other visits  just to remind him . It very much does depend on your vet, I couldn't have one I couldn't have a proper discussion about all options pros/cons with though.


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## PoppyAnderson (26 July 2017)

I'm happy to be labelled barefoot taliban! I'm fighting the cause!! I admit I'm grumpy (I know I hide it well...) but it's just so tedious that people don't do their own research first, as there's a plethora of information on the subject, much of which has its foundation in facts, science, research etc.


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## FfionWinnie (26 July 2017)

Oh awa n boil yer heid!  I've got 8 horses in full work without shoes - I know plenty about BF but the OP isn't asking about BF!!!

I know and I'm sure she knows Rockley is the best. It's. Not. Always. That. Simple.


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## ponymum (26 July 2017)

FfionWinnie said:



			I know and I'm sure she knows Rockley is the best. It's. Not. Always. That. Simple.
		
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Ok, I know I said I was backing away but I felt I needed to say something. 
FW, you are very right, I know about the benefits of Barefoot and I've emailed Nic at Rockley as I believe it represents his best chance. I am just waiting for a reply. However, it will be a while before he can go, if it is right for him, so in the meantime I want to get his diet right and other management options to ensure the best outcome.
He is on Alfa-A Oil because it suits him. I know some horses are sensitive to alfalfa but he isn't. He's never been footy and he has never had laminitis. He is a perfect weight, according to the feed consultants that bring weigh bridges to the yard and his coat is always shiny. He has ad lib hay in winter and is out 24 hours in summer with hay in the field when grass is low. He is on Speedibeet to keep up the low sugar regimen. I now know Spillers isn't the best option, hence I was asking about other vitamin/mineral supplements. If there is a better feed for him, then I'm open to suggestions, but I don't want to change for the sake of it as he can be a fussy so and so.
What I was after was some helpful advice about horses that have come back from navicular to maybe competing, ideally eventing, and how you managed it. Even better if they are barefoot!
I know this won't be an easy journey and that I will have to battle for him with the vets - I'm used to that, I fought for him to have hydrotherapy for a leg wound. Some concrete evidence would be helpful as I'm used to discussing clinical papers with doctors so proper trials are ideal but it looks like the best we have is anecdotal evidence, all be it that there is a good amount of it.  I get on well with my farrier and I'm guessing his response will be that he doesn't think my boy can go Barefoot but I can cross that bridge when I come to it.
To the Barefoot Taliban - you are preaching to the converted but as FW says - Its not that simple!
Thank you


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## ester (26 July 2017)

so supplement wise, something without iron, in no particular order:
prohoof (pro_earth on ebay)
forageplus
equimins adv. complete - I use this, it is a bit low in magnesium for us (high calcium forage) so I add a bit more of that. 
equivita 
and at least one other I can't currently remember. 


Micronised linseed is always good stuff. I can feed a mug (technical  ) a day to a welsh cob without it adding weight (he gets more in winter/full work). 

Sadly no, there are no proper trials, certainly not with good numbers, and funding is pretty unlikely to happen. A fair few people do seem to get their horses better in bar shoes/wedges/injecting etc but the improvement they see seems to be a bit time limited (but they also sort of expect that to happen and feel any extra time is more than they could have had). 

There are advantages and disadvantages to going to rockley, I think I would err on suggesting people try it at home first, if they have the ability to do small amounts of walking each day and appropriate turn out etc. Rockley does give them a head start, and you don't have to worry about uncomfortable surfaces but plenty seem to experience a blip when they go home and have to deal with a slightly different dietary/movement regime etc. So if you can get it right with home first I think you can avoid that, even if the initial improvement might be a bit slower. Nic was great when I emailed her, I (and others) do think that you tend to hear more about the success stories on long term updates down the line than the ones that are still tricky and better but not amazing. - But that is where my comment comes from that I think it is still probably the best chance for most, even if not 100% successful and at the very least worth a try.  (we did 2 cycles in bar shoes, that was the chance I was going to give them, then they came off   )


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## ponymum (26 July 2017)

Just for those who are interested in what a poor navicular bone looks like:


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## ponymum (26 July 2017)

Ester, Thanks - that's just the kind of thing I was after!


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## ester (26 July 2017)

No probs, I'd missed that bit, wood for trees by that point . 

There are a fair few post rockely horses on here if you fancy a search, I also know for instance that polarskye's boy did quite well with the shoeing way for a period of time. For me if a horse had a lot of other stuff going on that meant life was going to be short regardless I wouldn't be anti shoe. 

For my own he was 19, I decided if he was retiring he wasn't keeping shoes on so we might as well give it a proper go to see what happened . He hunted till he 23 and semi retired to hacking a year ago for completely unrelated issues (spavin/annulars/liver has gone funky) - the front end is still sound as. I am very glad we got those extra 4 years of jolliness!


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## be positive (26 July 2017)

ponymum said:



			Ok, I know I said I was backing away but I felt I needed to say something. 
FW, you are very right, I know about the benefits of Barefoot and I've emailed Nic at Rockley as I believe it represents his best chance. I am just waiting for a reply. However, it will be a while before he can go, if it is right for him, so in the meantime I want to get his diet right and other management options to ensure the best outcome.
He is on Alfa-A Oil because it suits him. I know some horses are sensitive to alfalfa but he isn't. He's never been footy and he has never had laminitis. He is a perfect weight, according to the feed consultants that bring weigh bridges to the yard and his coat is always shiny. He has ad lib hay in winter and is out 24 hours in summer with hay in the field when grass is low. He is on Speedibeet to keep up the low sugar regimen. I now know Spillers isn't the best option, hence I was asking about other vitamin/mineral supplements. If there is a better feed for him, then I'm open to suggestions, but I don't want to change for the sake of it as he can be a fussy so and so.
What I was after was some helpful advice about horses that have come back from navicular to maybe competing, ideally eventing, and how you managed it. Even better if they are barefoot!
I know this won't be an easy journey and that I will have to battle for him with the vets - I'm used to that, I fought for him to have hydrotherapy for a leg wound. Some concrete evidence would be helpful as I'm used to discussing clinical papers with doctors so proper trials are ideal but it looks like the best we have is anecdotal evidence, all be it that there is a good amount of it.  I get on well with my farrier and I'm guessing his response will be that he doesn't think my boy can go Barefoot but I can cross that bridge when I come to it.
To the Barefoot Taliban - you are preaching to the converted but as FW says - Its not that simple!
Thank you
		
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It sounds as if you have most of it covered but one thing from your first post stood out, that he has typical tb feet, this is a misconception tb's do not have to have poor feet, they can have good strong feet so there is a reason why his are not good and they are probably in part why he has gone lame. 
Not being critical of your farrier or management but wanted to put in a few thoughts from my experience of having a few barefoot horses in full work, you may need to tweak his diet just because he has not been obviously footy does not mean he is not sensitive, his feet did not cope without shoes so they are not strong which means something needs addressing before he will cope. 
Not a navicular horse but a tb that came here with a tendon injury, his feet were the worst feet I have ever seen, low heels, long toes, his frogs were crumbled to nothing, soft pliable soles, he was on box rest with daily walking so for 6 weeks I scrubbed his feet with salt water and walked him over the yard trying to ignore his flinching when he trod on a stone, he was eventually turned out by which time he had some frogs, a little heel and his soles had toughened up, he had 6 months of "neglect" in the field, he was out 24/7 for the winter with just regular trims but no more, he came back to full work doing all his roadwork barefoot, was shod to return to racing then they came off when he retired to become a low level competition horse, his feet were totally different after the first 8 weeks of roadwork, they never went back to being the typical tb feet he arrived with and the tendon held up well to all he did, my farrier described his feet as "perfect" and he is not one to give praise lightly. 

I think most horses can go barefoot but you do need the farrier on board, I am more than happy to shoe when required, I keep my grass so it provides something for them to eat but it is never fertilised and they are restricted to an extent, mine are mainly good doers, even the tb looked rather porky most of the time, feeding is basic, a token amount of grassnuts is all most of them ever get along with adlib hay or haylage in the winter. 
Going to Rockley will give him a good start but get going now to tweak the diet while he has the shoes on so he has a head start when he arrives.


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## Theocat (27 July 2017)

PoppyAnderson said:



			I'm happy to be labelled barefoot taliban! I'm fighting the cause!! I admit I'm grumpy (I know I hide it well...) but it's just so tedious that people don't do their own research first, as there's a plethora of information on the subject, much of which has its foundation in facts, science, research etc.
		
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It"s BECAUSE I've been doing research and am taking an interest that I'm interested in seeing more evidence - especially studies or hard fact, rather than just lots and lots of anecdote. Of course individual stories are useful, and add up to compelling cases, but what they don't do is provide actual evidence that shoes *never* work. Even the Rockley site says that if shoes are working, there's no point in changing.

I suspect you're in a barefoot echo chamber, which makes you sound blinkered, and weakens your position. You don't need to convince me of the benefits of barefoot, by the way, but for those who do need convincing, your attitude is harming your cause - not helping it.


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## Pinkvboots (27 July 2017)

I don't want to hijack your thread op but I to have a horse his 12 that has very slight changes in the navicular bone his lame on his off side front which has the most changes, he had osphos treatment in both fronts and had steroid put into the navicular bursa a few months ago, although he is not as lame his still 1 tenth lame worse on a circle, they have recommended I have an mri of both feet which will be done over the next few weeks.

I decided to take his shoes off about a month ago and his been okay they did break up initially but what concerned me the most was how different his feet looked, they have never been a total pair but the lame foot started to look more upright and boxy compared to the other and although it was always not the same as the other one it got significantly worse.

I know the mri could throw something else up but do you think I am doing the right thing leaving the shoes off now without knowing if anything else is going on? I was planning on trying to keep him barefoot if or when he returns to work.


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## PolarSkye (27 July 2017)

PoppyAnderson said:



			Have you seen any horse ever return to full soundness in the long term after remedial shoeing?
		
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Mine did.  

P


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## ycbm (27 July 2017)

Pinkvboots said:



			I don't want to hijack your thread op but I to have a horse his 12 that has very slight changes in the navicular bone his lame on his off side front which has the most changes, he had osphos treatment in both fronts and had steroid put into the navicular bursa a few months ago, although he is not as lame his still 1 tenth lame worse on a circle, they have recommended I have an mri of both feet which will be done over the next few weeks.

I decided to take his shoes off about a month ago and his been okay they did break up initially but what concerned me the most was how different his feet looked, they have never been a total pair but the lame foot started to look more upright and boxy compared to the other and although it was always not the same as the other one it got significantly worse.

I know the mri could throw something else up but do you think I am doing the right thing leaving the shoes off now without knowing if anything else is going on? I was planning on trying to keep him barefoot if or when he returns to work.
		
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Your farrier has been shoeing your horse, who wants feet of two different shapes, to look as symmetrical as he can.

This quest for symmetry by farriers is often a cause of horses going lame. Evidenced by the fact that when they are allowed to grow the for they want, they very often come sound. 

Your horse is probably  growing a different shaped foot to suit the leg above it.  The key question is not what his feet look like, but whether he becomes more sound.


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## ester (27 July 2017)

PolarSkye said:



			Mine did.  

P
		
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I did mention him  

There are also a fair few reports of others doing so if carefully managed, what does muddy the water though is the woolinesss of navicular as a diagnosis which makes it difficult as all of these horses probably cover a range of pathologies  which probably effect outcome.


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## PoppyAnderson (27 July 2017)

Theocat said:



			It"s BECAUSE I've been doing research and am taking an interest that I'm interested in seeing more evidence - especially studies or hard fact, rather than just lots and lots of anecdote. Of course individual stories are useful, and add up to compelling cases, but what they don't do is provide actual evidence that shoes *never* work. Even the Rockley site says that if shoes are working, there's no point in changing.

I suspect you're in a barefoot echo chamber, which makes you sound blinkered, and weakens your position. You don't need to convince me of the benefits of barefoot, by the way, but for those who do need convincing, your attitude is harming your cause - not helping it.
		
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I get that entirely. I get that my militant stance can alienate. It's just so trying that people don't do their own research first. The internet is a wonderful thing and provides all that info that anyone could ever need on the subject.


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## PoppyAnderson (27 July 2017)

ycbm said:



			Your farrier has been shoeing your horse, who wants feet of two different shapes, to look as symmetrical as he can.

This quest for symmetry by farriers is often a cause of horses going lame. Evidenced by the fact that when they are allowed to grow the for they want, they very often come sound. 

Your horse is probably  growing a different shaped foot to suit the leg above it.  The key question is not what his feet look like, but whether he becomes more sound.
		
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Absolutely. People strive for perfect looking feet but a horse will grow the feet they need (given the right environment) and you have to observe this and work with it, not against it.


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## PoppyAnderson (27 July 2017)

Equimins hoof mender has the highest spec and is the best hoof supplement on the market.


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## ycbm (27 July 2017)

PoppyAnderson said:



			Equimins hoof mender has the highest spec and is the best hoof supplement on the market.
		
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There is no such thing as 'the highest spec'. The best spec is the one which most accurately compensates for what is missing or excessive in your horses grazing and forage.


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## fairhill (27 July 2017)

OP, my aunt's horse had ddft damage last year and she has got him sound via remedial shoeing and restricted turnout.

My mare has ddft damage in both front legs and I am going down the unshod, turned out, gentle exercise route. I use a farrier for trims, and at the moment she is having no supplements or feed. And is on grass 24/7! Too early to say she is sound but she is definitely starting to improve.

There are pros, cons and unknowns whatever you decide, so think about what will work for you, and your horse. And you can always change your mind


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## Pinkvboots (27 July 2017)

ycbm said:



			Your farrier has been shoeing your horse, who wants feet of two different shapes, to look as symmetrical as he can.

This quest for symmetry by farriers is often a cause of horses going lame. Evidenced by the fact that when they are allowed to grow the for they want, they very often come sound. 

Your horse is probably  growing a different shaped foot to suit the leg above it.  The key question is not what his feet look like, but whether he becomes more sound.
		
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thank you but to be fair to my farrier he said to me a long while back that that foot seemed to be getting more upright and he is very good in the sense that he shoes each foot as an individual he knows not to try and make them match, my vet did say the horse may have been feeling slight discomfort before he became lame and often they start to not load that foot equally so that can cause the foot to change in shape.


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## Tiddlypom (27 July 2017)

PoppyAnderson said:



			I get that entirely. I get that my militant stance can alienate. It's just so trying that people don't do their own research first. The internet is a wonderful thing and provides all that info that anyone could ever need on the subject.
		
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Perhaps you could point folk towards all this readily available info? It's easier for many of us if someone has sifted through all the dross first .


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## ycbm (27 July 2017)

Pinkvboots said:



			thank you but to be fair to my farrier he said to me a long while back that that foot seemed to be getting more upright and he is very good in the sense that he shoes each foot as an individual he knows not to try and make them match, my vet did say the horse may have been feeling slight discomfort before he became lame and often they start to not load that foot equally so that can cause the foot to change in shape.
		
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It's usually the case,ime, that vets and farriers think exactly as yours do, but go no further. What they then often want to do is 'help' the house stay sound by putting the foot back where they think it should be. They don't recognise that the change in the foot is to provide the optimum foot for the horse at that time. Worse, they often don't realise that the foot will go back to a 'better' shape when the problem that caused it to go odd is resolved, and that trying to do that too quickly can delay resolution of the issue.

I'm not saying that your own vet or farrier are doing this, just that you need to be aware that they might, especially if you want your horse to recover with a barefoot rehab.


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## PoppyAnderson (27 July 2017)

ycbm said:



			There is no such thing as 'the highest spec'. The best spec is the one which most accurately compensates for what is missing or excessive in your horses grazing and forage.
		
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True but joe public typically doesn't have grass and hay analysis carried out and supplement accordingly, so the best off-the-shelf is equimins hoof mender.


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## ycbm (27 July 2017)

PoppyAnderson said:



			True but joe public typically doesn't have grass and hay analysis carried out and supplement accordingly, so the best off-the-shelf is equimins hoof mender.
		
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I do not understand how you can say that when so many people are reporting great results with either forage plus or progressive earth.

In what way do you consider it 'best'?


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## Leo Walker (27 July 2017)

Equimins doesnt have any vitamin E and has unspecified "herbal products" according to this link, so its not what I would class as best, although it is a reasonable option.

https://www.******.co.uk/Equimins_H...MI9f7l35Gq1QIVgrXtCh0mNQ40EAQYASABEgLzFvD_BwE


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## paddy555 (27 July 2017)

PoppyAnderson said:



			True but joe public typically doesn't have grass and hay analysis carried out and supplement accordingly, so the best off-the-shelf is equimins hoof mender.
		
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I used hoof mender and it was OK. I then moved up to equimins metabalance which is a very similar spec to equimins advanced complete and that was a better product. However on top of that I further supplement vit E as there is insufficient in any of the products. 
I don't see your reluctance with alfalfa. All of mine have been on the pellets for many years and they are all sound on it. I think it is a very good feed.


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## PoppyAnderson (27 July 2017)

ycbm said:



			I do not understand how you can say that when so many people are reporting great results with either forage plus or progressive earth.

In what way do you consider it 'best'?
		
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I already said - it has the best spec. Go do the comparisons and you will see.


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## PoppyAnderson (27 July 2017)

paddy555 said:



			I used hoof mender and it was OK. I then moved up to equimins metabalance which is a very similar spec to equimins advanced complete and that was a better product. However on top of that I further supplement vit E as there is insufficient in any of the products. 
I don't see your reluctance with alfalfa. All of mine have been on the pellets for many years and they are all sound on it. I think it is a very good feed.
		
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Some horses have an intolerance to it, so when you're trying to optimise nutrition and give your horse the best chance of recovery, it's easier to just eliminate it.


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## Leo Walker (27 July 2017)

PoppyAnderson said:



			I already said - it has the best spec. Go do the comparisons and you will see.
		
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I did and it doesnt as per my post above


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## ester (28 July 2017)

I feed equimins as mentioned above, I don't and wouldn't feed hoof mender. 

Remembering of course that there is not masses of research for RDAs anyway before you add the complication of forage. So what research are you using it to declare it best spec PA?


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## ycbm (28 July 2017)

PoppyAnderson said:



			I already said - it has the best spec. Go do the comparisons and you will see.
		
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Highest amounts of things are not necessarily best. Inclusion of things that are not in others are not necessarily best. Absence of things that are in others might make it not best.

Please define your use of the word 'best'.


I'll define mine. 'What works most effectively at the lowest price for the individual horse'. And there is a range of supplements and bespoke minerals that do that job for people.


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## ycbm (28 July 2017)

Poppy, I have looked up the specification for Hoof Mender that you pointed to. For my land, which is high in iron and manganese, it has a level of copper which is totally inadequate for my horses, who would blood test too high in iron on that dose of copper.

Pro Hoof, for example, delivers 175mg of copper and Equimins only 53 mg, but I feed even more than that.

I hope that helps you understand why I am so keen to get you to stop referring to it as 'the best'.


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## tallyho! (28 July 2017)

Like ycbm, in my experience, one horse's needs do not necessarily match another.

Of all the horses I've had (even related ones) seem to have different requirements depending on individual metabolic needs and pharmacokinetic curves and what is already available in what they graze. Not everything is eliminated at the same rate so what might be beneficial to one horse, can quickly become toxic to another horse when fed at the same rate/dose. What might be high in your pasture/hay, might be low somewhere else.

Just because one brand/formulation says it has more of one thing than another, what you might find is, your horse might suit one over the other brand/formulation. There is no such thing as "best brand/formulation" but I have found that there is a "best match for the horse".

However, thanks to the "barefoot movement" (whatever you want to call it) is that there has been more research into what few things ARE essential for soundness here in the UK - if the foot be the barometer for whole horse health, then let it guide you.

For my horses, on this particular land, copper is the thing needed and that was a suggestion by someone here many years ago when I first took my navicular horse barefoot for soundness and I haven't really looked back. I suppose if I moved areas, I might need to take a look at that again but that's how it should be.


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## Pinkvboots (28 July 2017)

ycbm said:



			It's usually the case,ime, that vets and farriers think exactly as yours do, but go no further. What they then often want to do is 'help' the house stay sound by putting the foot back where they think it should be. They don't recognise that the change in the foot is to provide the optimum foot for the horse at that time. Worse, they often don't realise that the foot will go back to a 'better' shape when the problem that caused it to go odd is resolved, and that trying to do that too quickly can delay resolution of the issue.

I'm not saying that your own vet or farrier are doing this, just that you need to be aware that they might, especially if you want your horse to recover with a barefoot rehab.
		
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I know what you mean my vet is already pushing for shoes to go back on I won't budge on that he has quite good quality feet he is happy to walk on tarmac and even the stony track doesn't bother him, obviously his not been ridden but I will cross that when I hopefully can get back on and take it slowly, I will take some pictures later I would put them on here put have no idea how to have tried a few times lol!


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## Leo Walker (28 July 2017)

If you get stuck inbox me and I will do them for you


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## paddy555 (28 July 2017)

PoppyAnderson said:



			Some horses have an intolerance to it, so when you're trying to optimise nutrition and give your horse the best chance of recovery, it's easier to just eliminate it.
		
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 a lot less than you think other than scare stories on the internet. People are missing a good feedstuff. I think the vast majority of problems are based on the chaff form of alfalfa rather than the pellets. 

I have 10 in an extremely mixed bunch of equines on alfalfa pellets in the winter. Surely one of them should be slightly footy on it yet no one is.


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## ycbm (28 July 2017)

paddy555 said:



			a lot less than you think other than scare stories on the internet. People are missing a good feedstuff. I think the vast majority of problems are based on the chaff form of alfalfa rather than the pellets. 

I have 10 in an extremely mixed bunch of equines on alfalfa pellets in the winter. Surely one of them should be slightly footy on it yet no one is.
		
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Rockley feed alfalfa pellets


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## Meowy Catkin (28 July 2017)

I avoid alfalfa, but not because it makes my horses footy, but because it makes my gelding's skin itchy. I was also advised to avoid it as he has suffered from leukoclastic vasculitis in the past, which is absolute hell for the poor chap. The other two eat it quite happily, however it's easier for me if they all have the same chaff, so they all get plain grass chaff ATM.


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## FfionWinnie (28 July 2017)

I also feed alfalfa pellets without any issue.


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## Regandal (29 July 2017)

You won't find much post rehab evidence, as in scans or xrays, as the owner would have to pay for them.  Insurance will pay if used for diagnosis obviously.  Hence the anecdotal stuff only.


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## Puddleduck (29 July 2017)

Mine is on Alfa A chaff. I don't get to choose feed on the yard I keep him on but as the diet fed is low sugar & starch I was comfortable that it should be ok. It has been absolutely fine for him during our transition and still works fine.  I've changed him onto soaked hay instead of a 50/50 mix of hay & haylage and the only impact I've seen is that the increased moisture make him wetter in the stable. 
The paddock I'm using for turnout has mixed grasses which includes some rye which I know is considered a big issue for BF. He has only been turned out for about 8 weeks due to various issues that kept putting him back on box rest (I swear he & my vet have done a deal behind my back). 
He was a little footy on stony ground on his fronts after being fine all the time he didn't have turnout so I reckon that is a small issue but he's fine with scoot boots for hacking and 100% on grass or in the school so it's not really an issue just something I will need to watch for and manage. I'm considering get an analysis done to see if there's anything needed through a balancer or supplement. He already has a magnesium oxide supplement daily which I started using as a calmer for behavioural issues before his injury came to light. 
I'm hoping I can convince my insurance to pay for a rescan to follow up on request of my vet. I can't see anything in my policy that says they won't so it will need a specific discussion to find out. Both my vet and I would love to see a comparison to the first MRI as the initial prognosis was so poor. The injury was so bad it was visible straight away without them needing to process the scan images.


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## tallyho! (29 July 2017)

Faracat said:



			I avoid alfalfa, but not because it makes my horses footy, but because it makes my gelding's skin itchy. I was also advised to avoid it as he has suffered from leukoclastic vasculitis in the past, which is absolute hell for the poor chap. The other two eat it quite happily, however it's easier for me if they all have the same chaff, so they all get plain grass chaff ATM.
		
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Yes I avoid alfalfa now, caused chronic abscessing. Took her off it and no abscess - sent her to be backed and they fed alfalfa, she abscessed 4th week there. Since being home on grass based products no problem.

I'm sure it suits most horses but not mine. Still, no complaints with grass.


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## JoJo1998 (12 July 2021)

PoppyAnderson said:



			Many horses are sensative to alfalfa, so it's easier to advise to just miss it out altogether at first. Micronised linseed is one of the most cost effective feeds out there. You only feed small amounts so it lasts forever. I always get first and plus the wrong way round!
		
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Hi I have only just come on here as my 18yr old tax has navicular after X-rays and steroid in sections that lasted d5 weeks he is on 2 bute day and this last week he is on 4 bute day and not sound really his shoes are off and he is turned out ? any hope ?
Thanks jo


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## JoJo1998 (12 July 2021)

ycbm said:



			Rockleyfarm.blogspot.com

I hope that your vets have told you that the condition of the navicular bone itself is very rarely the cause of the lameness?
		
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So what is the cause of the lameness ?


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## Pinkvboots (12 July 2021)

JoJo1998 said:



			So what is the cause of the lameness ?
		
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It's normally the surrounding soft tissue but this thread is old so some people don't post on here anymore ycbm does but I don't think PoppyA does


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## Casey76 (12 July 2021)

Are you booting him?  4 bute a day is not something you want to do for more than a couple of days at most - unless you are in an ‘end of life’ situation.  A dose that high is going to damage the liver and stomach pretty quickly.

Do you have photos of the feet, side on, from ground level?  Is your farrier involved, to trim the feet to the xrays?


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## Pinkvboots (12 July 2021)

Thats quite a lot of bute I personally would want further investigation or a second opinion, my navicular horse was only ever about 3 tenths lame on a circle but that improved after a few weeks on Bute.


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## tallyho! (13 July 2021)

Jojo do you have x-rays and also photos of the hooves? How long have the shoes been off?

I re-habbed a 10yo horse with navicular back to competition so yes there is hope. Have you made any other changes to diet just in case there is any inflammation related to EMS that is making him so lame?


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## Reacher (13 July 2021)

JoJo1998 said:



			So what is the cause of the lameness ?
		
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You might find this link interesting 
https://thehorse.com/181721/bowker-navicular-issues-begin-earlier-than-we-think/
And this
"Effects of barefoot trimming on hoof morphology" by Clayton , R Bowker et al - Paper discusses trimming to rehab long toed underslung hooves”

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.1751-0813.2011.00806.x


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