# Teaching young horse to lift under saddle



## soloequestrian (14 December 2017)

My youngster will be five next June.  She's not backed yet but happily wears a saddle to be lunged/long reined.  I hope to start ridden work in the spring, just working on getting a saddle that fits her really well at the moment.  I'm interested in teaching her to lift her back into the saddle before I start to get on, but I don't know how to do this.  Has anyone else tried?  I've always been hopeless at getting horses to lift their back by pressing/tickling under the sternum, and I have tried finger nails down her hamstrings but she totally ignored me.  She's clicker trained so if I could find an aid that actually worked I should be able to help her make the connection easily, but failing at the moment!  It was the post about the pro core trainer that got me thinking about this again - perhaps something like that is the way forward....


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## Bernster (15 December 2017)

Ok having seen over 1k have looked at this thread but no replies, I'm assuming my response was the same as some of them!  Huh??  Never heard of a horse lifting their back as you get on !  Lifting as you ride, in the sense of working through and lifting their frame, yes, but that doesn't seem to be what you're  asking.


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## Batgirl (15 December 2017)

In my experience horses lift their back for 3 reasons:
Reflex - try fingernails on the breast bone, stick in and draw back a couple of inches and they should reflexively 'arch' and relax (no ticking or pressing) or pulling the tail straight back (perhaps not so safe with a baby)
Carry weight - arch against you to protect themselves which i the backing process
When they are truly engaged - which you won't get from a 5 year old consistently, but can be done on the lunge (google engaging horses back on the lunge)

I have never heard of a horse being taught to lift its back into a saddle as a baby as part of backing.  If you are asking for reflex movement (even with clicker training) it would never be held long enough for you to get on with it still up and would actually be potentially damaging to the reflex as you would be 'suppressing' the reflex response which can have a lasting effect on the reflex.


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## HufflyPuffly (15 December 2017)

Yes I read and initially thought I'm not sure how to respond.

For strengthening the back, this comes from hind leg engagement, the abdominal muscles to contract and thus lifting the back. Normally we do this by riding, however in-hand exercises would be pole work (especially raised pole work) and possibly something like the Equiband. However, and a big however, this is for mature horses, I've never really seen anyone specifically focus on this on the unbacked horse.

Normally the work that goes into backing a horse will get the horse strong enough to carry a rider, e.g. long-lining, especially up and down hills.

Not even my 14 year old horse will put her back up for me to get on and normally this is seen as a negative (symptomatic of being cold backed). Hopefully OP will come back and maybe explain a little more?


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## Cornish (15 December 2017)

Hi OP - I guess you mean getting her to stretch her back upwards as a reflex when stimulated unmounted, to help her stretch muscles that will be unused to working when you start riding her? Rather than making her lift back as part of mounting process  If so, chiro and physio have always shown me the same technique as you have already used (try using fingernail along mid line from girth towards udder) and along reflex points in quarters to produce an equine equivalent of a 'sit up' but if you are not getting a result, I'd suggest asking your preferred professional to show you/watch you to make sure you are stimulating correctly and not likely to make her sore. Also, guidance I've seen is that as this is a reflex point, you shouldn't do it too often as it can make the point numb.


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## milliepops (15 December 2017)

Cornish said:



			Hi OP - I guess you mean getting her to stretch her back upwards as a reflex when stimulated unmounted, to help her stretch muscles that will be unused to working when you start riding her? Rather than making her lift back as part of mounting process  If so, chiro and physio have always shown me the same technique as you have already used (try using fingernail along mid line from girth towards udder) and along reflex points in quarters to produce an equine equivalent of a 'sit up' but if you are not getting a result, I'd suggest asking your preferred professional to show you/watch you to make sure you are stimulating correctly and not likely to make her sore. Also, guidance I've seen is that as this is a reflex point, you shouldn't do it too often as it can make the point numb.
		
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I have one that finds this really difficult from a reflex point even with the physio, however I can get a similar effect with a carrot stretch to the hind foot (esp if I park her bum against the wall). She's short enough that I can look up and see the upward curve/stretch across her back, also gets the core muscles working


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## LeannePip (15 December 2017)

Hopefully OP will come back and explain a little more of what shes after.

The only instructor I had who tried to engage that reflex ridden and make me keep it was a very eccentric RWYM instructor, the horse almost instantly tried to buck me off  didn't try it again after that!


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## milliepops (15 December 2017)

:lol:    :eek3: LP!  OMG I can just imagine!


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## LeannePip (15 December 2017)

She was quite a mild horse generally.  and the instructor said 'look here, this is what she needs to feel like when you ride' *digs nail into chest/ back goes up* ' now walk on and maintain it* BUCK BUCK BUCK BUCK BUCK!


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## Auslander (15 December 2017)

If anything puts it's back up while I'm on it, I immediately grab the neckstrap! 

OP - not entirely sure what you mean. A young horse doesn't need to learn to arch its back under saddle. It just needs to be worked quietly correctly and consistently while it develops the strength to carry a rider in the most natural way it can.


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## cobgoblin (15 December 2017)

I think I know what OP means and it isn't arching the back in order to buck. It is something that comes with strength and self carriage.
Can't see how this can be taught in an unridden youngster though.


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## Ambers Echo (15 December 2017)

I wonder if what OP means is basically teaching the horse to brace not yield when you mount? If groundwork prior to backing has involved lots of yielding to pressure in any direction then the logical extension of this from the horse's POV is to sag the back or  lie down when you get on! But you  just need to pull on the stirrups/lean over a few times and they quickly learn they need to engage their core and resist the pressure not yield to it. I posted about the pro core but I used that with a more established horse who had specific hind end weaknesses from an old injury. If you want the horse to work from behind and engage/lift their back that comes over time with progressive schooling and training. I would not worry about that pre-backing.


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## Alibear (15 December 2017)

Just to add that if your horse is not responding to the normal queues to ask it to arch /round it's back when in hand it might be worth getting an osteo/physio to check the horse over.


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## soloequestrian (15 December 2017)

Crumbs, nothing this morning and now two pages!  Probably I'm not totally clear what I want myself... I just want my youngster to come through the backing and riding away process with her back as beautiful and healthy as it is now, and that might involve actively teaching her not to hollow in response to weight on her back.  She is fine with just the saddle - she doesn't really seem to notice it - but we tried at the end of last year to start building up weight on her back (staring with 7kg, substantially lighter than me!) and she got a bit twitchy about it.  I thought developing her core strength and looking at lifting into weight might help her confidence, though I'm hoping that age will have helped too.  I just got thinking about it again when I saw the pro-core thingy, I've not seen that kind of thing before.  I've never been able to get the back lift response from any horse, I'm pretty sure it's me and not them!  So I suppose 'lifting' was maybe the wrong term, it's more developing core strength which I'm trying to work on in myself too.


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## YorksG (15 December 2017)

I think there may be a bit of confusion going on here, including with the odd RWYM instructor!  I think there has been a mis-translation, or conflation of a horse "swelling" under the rider, so that you can feel it "fill" the space enclosed by legs and seat and a horse lifting it's back as a reflex. The only way I know to strengthen the horses back, prior to backing , is to keep on varied and hilly terraine, so that it builds it's back end and time to grow up and build it's core in play.


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## soloequestrian (15 December 2017)

Hm, maybe I just need to stop worrying about it... she's out 24/7 on a bit of a hill and she definitely plays!  I haven't started youngsters for a long time and the unconscious ignorance of my teenage years has unfortunately now transformed into conscious ignorance and I'm worried I'll end doing some sort of horrible damage to her....


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## LeannePip (15 December 2017)

Solo - you sounds like you are just trying to do the best by your horse but i think you are a bit confused about the horse lifting its back to work properly and what the physio etc does to get the horse to lift its back - its the same muscles but not to the same extreme.  Its not really something you can teach on cue and expect a young/ weak horse to be able to maintain, it just comes from gradually building strength, consistent work and training, if you can get the ridden work started correctly from the beginning it will fall together eventually.


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## Pinkvboots (15 December 2017)

You can do the back lifts with carrot stretches daily to help with core strength one of my horses really benefits from this, the only way he will do the back arch is if you stand behind him put both thumb nails either side at the top of his rump about 4 inches either side from the tail bone and then quickly run your thumbs down to the top of his legs, you can repeat it several times in between the carrot stretches so you get a good back lift each time.


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## milliepops (15 December 2017)

Pinkvboots said:



			You can do the back lifts with carrot stretches daily to help with core strength one of my horses really benefits from this, the only way he will do the back arch is if you stand behind him put both thumb nails either side at the top of his rump about 4 inches either side from the tail bone and then quickly run your thumbs down to the top of his legs, you can repeat it several times in between the carrot stretches so you get a good back lift each time.
		
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^^ stand to one side the first time you do this  
I got kneecapped by one of mine as she found it quite a surprise


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## ycbm (15 December 2017)

FestiveG said:



			I think there may be a bit of confusion going on here, including with the odd RWYM instructor!  I think there has been a mis-translation, or conflation of a horse "swelling" under the rider, so that you can feel it "fill" the space enclosed by legs and seat and a horse lifting it's back as a reflex. The only way I know to strengthen the horses back, prior to backing , is to keep on varied and hilly terraine, so that it builds it's back end and time to grow up and build it's core in play.
		
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This. I bought a two year old three weeks ago who had a big pot belly and no back muscle. I wormed him and it made no difference. After just three weeks turned out for eight hours a day on a steep field, his belly has tightened and his back has muscle on it. I expect him to be strong enough to sit on at three. Hills every time for young horses.


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## SEL (22 December 2017)

Pinkvboots said:



			You can do the back lifts with carrot stretches daily to help with core strength one of my horses really benefits from this, the only way he will do the back arch is if you stand behind him put both thumb nails either side at the top of his rump about 4 inches either side from the tail bone and then quickly run your thumbs down to the top of his legs, you can repeat it several times in between the carrot stretches so you get a good back lift each time.
		
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I've seen the physio do this with my little draft. He's too polite to kick so expressed his surprise by doing piaffe. Never knew he had it in him! (Nor did he by the look on his face).


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## JillA (22 December 2017)

cobgoblin said:



			I think I know what OP means and it isn't arching the back in order to buck. It is something that comes with strength and self carriage.
Can't see how this can be taught in an unridden youngster though.
		
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^^^This.
Surely engagement leads to lifting and that all comes with developing strength from carrying a rider for many hours?


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## soloequestrian (22 December 2017)

I suppose my thoughts are that riding develops my core strength but there are also many other exercises I can do to help with that, so I'm looking for the same for the horse.


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## PapaverFollis (22 December 2017)

Carrot stretches and walking over raised poles will develop the horse's core strength. As will living in a hilly field, hill work on the long lines etc. Teaching them to back up in hand then back up up an incline. These are all things I did with my sway backed, potbellied older mare to improve her shape and strength before bringing her back into work after we had an enforced break. Worked a treat. It was like riding a different horse than I had before.


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## Pinkvboots (22 December 2017)

SEL said:



			I've seen the physio do this with my little draft. He's too polite to kick so expressed his surprise by doing piaffe. Never knew he had it in him! (Nor did he by the look on his face).
		
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some horses don't respond well to a belly lift i think if you start of gentle and take your time they get used to it,another way to get a belly lift is put your fingers under the belly quite sharply which one of mine won't tolerate he really does let you know his not happy and to be honest I much prefer the thumb down the bum way it's kinder.


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