# Pirelli, where does it sit with breaking a horse?



## Kayles (30 July 2017)

Hello I have a rising 4 year old who was unspoilt when I took her off previous owners hands. I want to be careful with her but still engage her inquisitive social self. 3 months from only halter trained, she now lunges in tack easily, loads,  lifts all four feet and we've been concentrating on the 7 games of Pirelli. She is very respectful and careful of her feet. The question I'd like assistance with please is at what point do I focus on backing- Can you do the 7 games for too long? Most the time I am on my own when I work her. We have a half an hour groundwork lesson with a fantastic instructor once a week. My instructor has suggested many things to do with her and the plan currently seems like it could take the whole of the summer but she'd be a groundwork master and I value my instructors opinion I'm aware however that we've tops got ten weeks of daylight and I think I want her to be hacked out with a walking assistant (not lead) by the end of the summer as my goal. Is this a realistic goal given the fact I'm focussing on parelli? I'm thinking that because of her age now is the time to break her to ride. Currently working with her 3 times a week which seems to suit her. We start Long reining next week. Any tips please to help our journey this summer?


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## Sugar_and_Spice (30 July 2017)

Parelli is totally different to other methods, which your parelli instructor won't support.  Because parelli is a totally different way of training, if you were to go about breaking in the conventional way you'd essentially be teaching the horse 2 different methods at once, which could be very confusing for the horse.  If you must use the parelli method (I don't advise it) then I'd guess it's best to stick with just that and accept you won't be riding your horse until next year.  

One thing to be aware of with the parelli method is that if your horse has been trained to this it's possible he won't have a clue how to respond to people who don't use this method, which is most people.  Meaning you're limiting the number of people who can handle/ride him easily.  Which is fine if you intend to keep him for life, but should you be run over by a bus one day/wish to sell for some reason, he will be a horse who for most people will need total retraining, which isn't something that will increase his value or help him find a good/suitable home.


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## Kayles (31 July 2017)

Lol to the getting hit by a bus comment I can think of far slower and more painful ways to go! Seriously appreciate your thoughts on this though, I've gone with Pirelli because it's what my instructor recommended. I'm glad I'm not crazy though I thought my question was a silly question to ask. We are getting on great with the method though so can you please elaborate on what aspects of breaking that the horse will confuse with the parelli methods (so I can address these with my instructor) we are doing level 1 stuff currently. Thankyou for your reply.


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## Kayles (31 July 2017)

Also yeah she's a keeper for life &#128513; Got a daughter who's well into the horsey life so I not worry about selling her ever


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## Tiddlypom (31 July 2017)

I have done some Parelli handling in the past, Games 1 to 3?, before the whole shabooble got crazy and turned into the money making behemoth that it is now. I found it very useful with a difficult loader, for instance.

You will definitely confuse your horse if you mix and match conventional and Parelli methods. Tbh I'd ditch further Parelli  now, and go conventional. 

Be warned, there are very few Parelli followers on HHO, so this forum is not the place to ask for advice on using the method.


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## tallyho! (31 July 2017)

I think what Parelli has done is re-label the most basic classical/traditional training and rendered it's followers myopic.

The friendly game = basic teaching to respect your space. Use any stick or rope.
The porcupine = move away from pressure. You can use your fingers or any stick will do.
The driving game = basic teaching to go forward, a lead rope, a lungeline and lunge whip will do.
The yoyo = you could teach a horse to back up and come forward using your voice and your hand/crop
Circling game = that's lunging right? fairly basic classical "game"
Sideways game = yielding is fairly easily taught in basic in-hand training
Squeezing game = not sure why you need to make this a game, surely it does this each time it walks into it's stable?

So it CAN translate, it just depends if you can see through the system. Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater is all I have to say. The mistake these "brands" made is to label it and I can see why they did it, but what has happened is that they have now created tools that only work in isolation for some people. In simplifying (or indeed making it more complex!) this repackaged basics model has backfired - even though I'm sure their intention was to demystify horse training for some people. 

I'd say get on with teaching your horse to carry a rider once you have the basic groundwork established.


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## ihatework (31 July 2017)

I find Pirelli has a pretty good reputation, particularly for Formula One.

Not sure their equally suited to horse training though.


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## SEL (31 July 2017)

I know nothing about parelli, but if you've got a horse that is easily lunging in tack then I see no reason why you can't get them used to having a rider on board in the next 10 weeks.

Have you got experience backing a youngster to be ridden? Can your current instructor support you with this?


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## paddi22 (31 July 2017)

The thing i dislike about parelli trainers is that any i've seen work with people,  tend to make their students extremely dependent on them and terrified of doing the wrong thing. They drag things out and out and out, and sell more and more equipment and training. 

Any trainer should be happy to listen to their students aim. Your goal of having her hacking seems very realistic and an easily achieveable goal. Any decent trainer would work with you to achieve your objective, not just keep putting it off.


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## tallyho! (31 July 2017)

paddi22 said:



			The thing i dislike about parelli trainers is that any i've seen work with people,  tend to make their students extremely dependent on them and terrified of doing the wrong thing. They drag things out and out and out, and sell more and more equipment and training. 

Any trainer should be happy to listen to their students aim. Your goal of having her hacking seems very realistic and an easily achieveable goal. Any decent trainer would work with you to achieve your objective, not just keep putting it off.
		
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Completely. I also struggle with the blinkered-ness of training "Systems".


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## Pearlsasinger (31 July 2017)

ihatework said:



			I find Pirelli has a pretty good reputation, particularly for Formula One.

Not sure their equally suited to horse training though.
		
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The trouble with correcting someone else's spelling is that one's own should be beyond reproach

There (place)
Their (possessive)
They're (abbreviation of 'they are').

I'm not sure why anyone gets hung up on a particular system, Parelli or any other.


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## Tiddlypom (31 July 2017)

Full on Parelli trainers are pretty blinkered, and indeed seem to want to make their students ('parelliteenies') very dependent on them, and all the expensive Parelli products. Luckily the trainer I used was self taught and mixed it with traditional methods. 

The squeezing game was actually very useful in getting my claustrophobic drama diva mare loading and unloading calmly.


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## The Fuzzy Furry (31 July 2017)

We use Pirelli(s) on our motorbikes


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## ester (31 July 2017)

I've come across parelling people (instructors) now doing other stuff, it seemed the more they did they more holes they found and that having a horse randomly side passing along any pole it can find wasn't that helpful. 

It isn't a method I would choose to use.


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## Kayles (31 July 2017)

Lol your so funny I forgot to laugh lol (I didn't forget really)


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## Kayles (31 July 2017)

Lol you where the second mouse on the cheese there


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## Kayles (31 July 2017)

Omg I'm messing up this replying stuff. Sorry guys. I appreciate all the thoughts  genuinely  . was really hoping for some particular examples of direct conflict. As for practicing conventional training methods Alongside I have bitted her in a copper roller snaffle, lunge her in it and roller and side reins, mount and dismount every sesh with tack on. Stirrups been flapping everywhere on roller and saddle. Next steps alongside the parelli plans my instructor has: I intend on being lunged on board very patiently obviously as the aids is where I think she's missing guidance currently. Plenty more Road walking she's been in farm environment up til now and not bothered by tractors or cattle / sheep geese goats, lots of  long reining in school round fields and quiet tracks, eventually I think my instruction will take us all far as "liberty?" And or free schooling. I have no experience bringing on a youngster, she is my second horse and It took me to turn 30 before financially stable enough to get the land sorted. Now both my beauties are cobs bought cheap as chips, with not one penny spared for there needs so far. Loaned on and off fifteen years prior, riding and looking after other people's horses to keep horses fit for there events and for there financial benefit. stable girling as a young teen for extra riding lessons from age of 11, every Saturday and Sunday for years, all started by my best friend when I was 9 who went on to own 11 ponies at one point (well her dad did)  don't think I'll ever shake the horse madness, in my blood line skipped two generations.


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## Kayles (31 July 2017)

I love reading about horses constantly so please entertain me


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## Kayles (31 July 2017)

Any tips appreciated. Personally think I've done great in 3 month


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## ycbm (31 July 2017)

Kayles

1. If you want to reply to a particular post press the 'reply with quote' button

2. If you want to see where your horse might end up if you continue training with a Parelli purist, visit their arena at the Horse of the Year Show and watch the most shut down, miserable looking group of horses I've ever seen in one small space.


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## Orangehorse (31 July 2017)

I have ridden a Pirelli trained horse and it was quite normal and responded to the usual aids.  OP, I would discuss this with your instructor and say that you are worried about running out of daylight hours.


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## ycbm (31 July 2017)

Kayles said:



			Any tips appreciated. Personally think I've done great in 3 month
		
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I don't, sorry. In that time,  I've had every horse I have ever broken established in walk trot and canter on a hack, and most of them also in an arena. That includes an entirely unhandled three year old.

I think you have the wrong instructor.


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## Kayles (31 July 2017)

you say every horse like your lucky enough to work with them rather than own two and worked your whole life to obtain them. Still not hearing any actual examples of conflicting scenarios?


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## Kayles (31 July 2017)

Orangehorse said:



			I have ridden a Pirelli trained horse and it was quite normal and responded to the usual aids.  OP, I would discuss this with your instructor and say that you are worried about running out of daylight hours.
		
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Thanks this is the first hand experience I was after


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## Kayles (31 July 2017)

Orangehorse said:



			I have ridden a Pirelli trained horse and it was quite normal and responded to the usual aids.  OP, I would discuss this with your instructor and say that you are worried about running out of daylight hours.
		
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Pearlsasinger said:



			The trouble with correcting someone else's spelling is that one's own should be beyond reproach

There (place)
Their (possessive)
They're (abbreviation of 'they are').

I'm not sure why anyone gets hung up on a particular system, Parelli or any other.
		
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Lol

Do you take a more all rounder approach?


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## Kayles (31 July 2017)

ycbm said:



			Kayles

1. If you want to reply to a particular post press the 'reply with quote' button

2. If you want to see where your horse might end up if you continue training with a Parelli purist, visit their arena at the Horse of the Year Show and watch the most shut down, miserable looking group of horses I've ever seen in one small space.
		
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This sounds genuine. As someone mentioned earlier I don't think there is much support on here for this method yet I'm intreged by what would be a better alternative?


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## paddi22 (31 July 2017)

I'd be more worried about your trainers attitude. There is absolutely no reason why that horse shouldn't be hacking in a very short period and your trainer knows that. You have clearly stated that is your aim. You have a very logical sensible reason and yet your trainer is not working with you to achieve your goal, but pushing it further down the line because of her own opinion and for reasons she hasn't even clearly explained to you. That's a bad trainer and not someone I would be comfortable working with. i would worry about a system that would make hacking a horse down the road an impossible goal that needs a whole summer of work to do. I think trainers like that are manipulative and make pupils co-dependent on them.

I think you are completely right to have her hacking while the weather is good, there's light and no crazy cold, frost, wind or rain. That way she can have a natural break and come back after winter. I also think it's not good for a horse to have only had so much one on one interaction with a rider in an arena. It would be healthy to have a balance where she gets out and about and has to figure stuff out on her own on hacks. 

If you are worried that a training system can mess up the progress of a horse (that only needs to have someone sat on it and hacked down a road) then i'd have serious concerns about that system in the first place.

I've a young horse in less that three months of solid work and she's happily pottering about doing crosspoles at baby shows and popping logs xc. I also do a lot of groundwork and natural horsemanship with her (not parelli) , but i would never at any point feel they would clash. 

As a point of debate and not an insult directed at you at all, is the issue that parelli treats its followers like babies and spoonfeeds them tiny bits of information without ever making them feel confident or understand the entire system?


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## ester (31 July 2017)

I gave you a conflicting scenario, 
unless of course you think a horse that wants to only side pass if a pole is in the arena is not conflicting?

Look at this horse when he was doing parelli and when he stopped and started on the more classical route, I know which version I prefer - you can scroll through the page for more current pics.  

https://www.facebook.com/Roz.Richmond.uk/posts/320081984848621


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## ycbm (31 July 2017)

Kayles said:



			you say every horse like your lucky enough to work with them rather than own two and worked your whole life to obtain them. Still not hearing any actual examples of conflicting scenarios?
		
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I don't understand you. I'm a private owner and I've broken a number of cheap horses for myself to bring on and ride. Every single one, including a feral three year old, has been out hacking in all three paces, on its own, inside three months.


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## ester (31 July 2017)

ycbm said:



			I don't understand you. I'm a private owner and I've broken a number of cheap horses for myself to bring on and ride.
		
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yes what a bizarre response to you!?


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## ycbm (31 July 2017)

Kayles said:



			This sounds genuine. As someone mentioned earlier I don't think there is much support on here for this method yet I'm intreged by what would be a better alternative?
		
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What everyone who doesn't try to sell expensive branded  videos and gadgets does. Any non branded trainer, basically. Buy yourself an ordinary, non branded,  book on breaking horses and you will see what most people do.


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## ycbm (31 July 2017)

ester said:



			yes what a bizarre response to you!?
		
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Very troll like, in fact?


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## be positive (31 July 2017)

Kayles said:



			This sounds genuine. As someone mentioned earlier I don't think there is much support on here for this method yet I'm intreged by what would be a better alternative?
		
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The traditional method of starting youngsters works perfectly well, it sounds as if you are part way there with her lunging in tack, being confident in all paces, happy for you to sit on her so why not just move on to the next stage of her walking with you on top and go from there, constant repetition and baby steps forward in the training is all they require, most horses can get to the hacking stage within weeks not months if all goes well.
I think most people using these alternative methods try and make out there is something unique and work on reeling in anyone who lacks confidence, they then use the lack of confidence to keep you hooked rather than enable you, give you the confidence to progress alone which is what a good trainer should be doing, guidance and teaching you how to use the tools not holding you back in case you feel brave enough to make your own decisions. 
I think they have a similar way with the horses, get them so shut down, submissive, unable to think for themselves, they may end up quiet but they seem dull and unenthusiastic in their way of going.


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## Kayles (31 July 2017)

be positive said:



			The traditional method of starting youngsters works perfectly well, it sounds as if you are part way there with her lunging in tack, being confident in all paces, happy for you to sit on her so why not just move on to the next stage of her walking with you on top and go from there, constant repetition and baby steps forward in the training is all they require, most horses can get to the hacking stage within weeks not months if all goes well.
I think most people using these alternative methods try and make out there is something unique and work on reeling in anyone who lacks confidence, they then use the lack of confidence to keep you hooked rather than enable you, give you the confidence to progress alone which is what a good trainer should be doing, guidance and teaching you how to use the tools not holding you back in case you feel brave enough to make your own decisions. 
I think they have a similar way with the horses, get them so shut down, submissive, unable to think for themselves, they may end up quiet but they seem dull and unenthusiastic in their way of going.
		
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Now I'm think about it all the vids online do seem dull.


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## Kayles (31 July 2017)

ester said:



			yes what a bizarre response to you!?
		
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Ok So I didn't find the comment that helpful at the time but to clarify I'm interested in people experience of parelli during breaking process, not weather anyone thinks I've done a good job in three months (as I'm proud either way) not a troll either last time I checked lol


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## ester (31 July 2017)

Kayles said:



			We start Long reining next week. Any tips please to help our journey this summer?
		
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Well you also asked for tips to help your journey this summer. 

So I don't think you can say that suggestions to try a new instructor or just get on and start hacking aren't tips. 

Personally I would probably be hopping on sooner rather than later, no reason groundwork, in whatever guise cannot run alongside, and it obviously should. I will still doing in hand work with my 23 yo so ... plenty of time!


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## Kayles (31 July 2017)

really? Whilst on board or free schooling? My impressions of parelli so far is that it's lead by alpha mare i.e. Me, surely a horse side passing a pole would dude pass it anyway?


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## ycbm (31 July 2017)

Kayles said:



			Ok So I didn't find the comment that helpful at the time but to clarify I'm interested in people experience of parelli during breaking process, not weather anyone thinks I've done a good job in three months
		
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You said 'Personally think I've done great in 3 months' . I think you are well behind where any non Parelli trainer would be in the backing process.  I'm very confused whether you want real advice, or whether you want people to tell you that you are doing fine, so you can continue with Parelli.   Unless you want to delay even further, and potentially end up with a shut down horse afraid to think for itself, then I seriously recommend you to dump your trainer and find a new one who doesn't need a brand name.


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## Kayles (31 July 2017)

ester said:



			Well you also asked for tips to help your journey this summer. 

So I don't think you can say that suggestions to try a new instructor or just get on and start hacking aren't tips. 

Personally I would probably be hopping on sooner rather than later, no reason groundwork, in whatever guise cannot run alongside, and it obviously should. I will still doing in hand work with my 23 yo so ... plenty of time!
		
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Lol true I should have stated that I'm only on game 5, 3 weeks in (so a hour and a half paid training) and her rear feet lifting was problematic until parelli, working her three times a week also has a massive impact I think compared to most peoples commitment to breaking.

Thankyou all


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## ester (31 July 2017)

Kayles said:



			really? Whilst on board or free schooling? My impressions of parelli so far is that it's lead by alpha mare i.e. Me, surely a horse side passing a pole would dude pass it anyway?
		
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free schooling I think, it was just something that came up in conversation among a few other things that that person realised further down the parelli line that really weren't helpful, or what she wanted out of the relationship with a horse. Did you read the link I put up/look at the pictures?

I've not seen anything in parelli that makes me think it mimics alpha mare behaviour/lead.


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## ycbm (31 July 2017)

Kayles said:



			really? Whilst on board or free schooling? My impressions of parelli so far is that it's lead by alpha mare i.e. Me, surely a horse side passing a pole would dude pass it anyway?
		
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You aren't a mare, though, are you?  And the alpha mare thing is very questionable. Why not be a human trainer?  If you get a non Parelli trainer, they'll show you how.

If you want advice on breaking using Parelli, you're on the wrong forum.


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## Pearlsasinger (31 July 2017)

Kayles said:



			This sounds genuine. As someone mentioned earlier I don't think there is much support on here for this method yet I'm intreged by what would be a better alternative?
		
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Almost anything, judging by the end results that I have seen!

I don't believe in rushing young horses, or putting them under undue pressure but follow traditional methods, listening to the horse and working with it.


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## Kayles (31 July 2017)

Afraid to think for itself is a bit strong is it not?


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## ester (31 July 2017)

and of course the whole concept of an alpha mare has relatively recently been called into significant question anyway, so potentially a totally flawed behaviour to be working on 

https://www.researchgate.net/profil...ment-initiation-in-groups-of-feral-horses.pdf


Also if you are interested in behaviour and how you are working with it are you aware of the concept of learned helplessness? You might find a read of that helpful too.


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## Pearlsasinger (31 July 2017)

Kayles said:



			really? Whilst on board or free schooling? My impressions of parelli so far is that it's lead by alpha mare i.e. Me, surely a horse side passing a pole would dude pass it anyway?
		
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If  you watch a herd for a decent length of time, you will see that there is no "Alpha mare".  Different horses take the lead at different times, in different situations.  Horses are wise enough to know that their relationships with humans are not the same as those with other horses.


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## ycbm (31 July 2017)

Kayles said:



			Afraid to think for itself is a bit strong is it not?
		
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From the Parelli trained horses which I have met and seen, no.


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## Kayles (31 July 2017)

Real advice from someone with first hand experience in parell at a young age.


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## Kayles (31 July 2017)

Pearlsasinger said:



			If  you watch a herd for a decent length of time, you will see that there is no "Alpha mare".  Different horses take the lead at different times, in different situations.  Horses are wise enough to know that their relationships with humans are not the same as those with

Agreed. seeing all the  points of view are invaluable
		
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## Kayles (31 July 2017)

ester said:



			and of course the whole concept of an alpha mare has relatively recently been called into significant question anyway, so potentially a totally flawed behaviour to be working on 

https://www.researchgate.net/profil...ment-initiation-in-groups-of-feral-horses.pdf


Also if you are interested in behaviour and how you are working with it are you aware of the concept of learned helplessness? You might find a read of that helpful too.
		
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Wow this is so complex


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## Kayles (31 July 2017)

ester said:



			I gave you a conflicting scenario, 
unless of course you think a horse that wants to only side pass if a pole is in the arena is not conflicting?

Look at this horse when he was doing parelli and when he stopped and started on the more classical route, I know which version I prefer - you can scroll through the page for more current pics.  

https://www.facebook.com/Roz.Richmond.uk/posts/320081984848621

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I just see lots of comments


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## ester (31 July 2017)

It takes me to a long post that starts in capitals  'how did I get bob looking like he does today' or similar words dated 11 Feb 2015 it details the changes he went through with some photos of him being ridden after his parelli work, and then after she moved on from the parelli work, then there are comments underneath. It's possible the page isn't set to public though I thought it was and if you are seeing text it should be.


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## ester (31 July 2017)

Also it's not complicated, it's basic google research I would presume most people would do before they opt for deciding they should try and be an alpha mare or follow that sort of training regime.


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## Kayles (31 July 2017)

Kayles said:



			Wow this is so complex
		
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ester said:



			Also it's not complicated, it's basic google research I would presume most people would do before they opt for deciding they should try and be an alpha mare or follow that sort of training regime.
		
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Im pretty sure I did not google the definition of alpha mare and why I want to be one. The document is not an easy read - it is complex lol


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## Kayles (31 July 2017)

ester said:



			free schooling I think, it was just something that came up in conversation among a few other things that that person realised further down the parelli line that really weren't helpful, or what she wanted out of the relationship with a horse. Did you read the link I put up/look at the pictures?

I've not seen anything in parelli that makes me think it mimics alpha mare behaviour/lead.
		
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I think at the time the instructor mentioned it to me I was asking her to disengage her hind quarters during the circling game to then go in the opposite direction.


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## Kayles (31 July 2017)

ycbm said:



			You aren't a mare, though, are you?  And the alpha mare thing is very questionable. Why not be a human trainer?  If you get a non Parelli trainer, they'll show you how.

If you want advice on breaking using Parelli, you're on the wrong forum.
		
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I thought this was the inexperienced section "new owners"? Which forum should it have been on?


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## spacefaer (1 August 2017)

Kayles said:



			I thought this was the inexperienced section "new owners"? Which forum should it have been on?
		
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Not HHO but a Parelli-friendly one, possibly American.

Parelli is not a system that sits well with people on this forum as whole, nor on the sub-forum "New Owners"

It's not a system that translates well into competitive riding, or indeed the horse being handled by non-Parelli based people.

I have just helped a friend of mine start her homebred 4 yr old. She has handled him since birth and done loads of in-hand work with him. Because she has followed a non-conventional groundwork method (not Parelli but similar), it has been very hard for the three of us (me, her and her young horse) to communicate.

It is like teaching a French speaking child how to write essays in English. We are getting there, but it has been confusing for all of us. And both my friend and I have a lot more experience with horses than you, OP. I have been backing a huge variety of horses for myself and other people for about 30 years.


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## ester (1 August 2017)

It's a scientific paper but there are plenty of opinion/easy read pieces about that bit of research if you can be bothered to use your google search. Basically all it confirms, by proper robust research, what we have said here about alpha mares not existing.

It isn't that we have a personal grudge against parcelling, we dislike it because we have done some research and recognise it's many flaws as a general programme. Research that anyone should be doing before embarking on a journey with a new horse and I'd highly recommend you take a trip round the internet. There are loads of user friendly articles that can be read by excellent horse people and once you have armed yourself with some more information you will be in a better position to decide how you want to proceed. 

It may also depend if you intend to sell or keep this horse, as you will reduce your market if it has been heavily parellid.


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## ycbm (1 August 2017)

Kayles said:



			I thought this was the inexperienced section "new owners"? Which forum should it have been on?
		
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A forum where people believe in and use Parelli to break in horses. I don't think you will find an HHO user who will advise you on it, because most of the rest of us dislike the entire package so much.

There are some good bits in it, but they are not unique to Parelli.

But I personally will not support the use of a method where they sock their horses under the chin with the clip on a lead rope, having watched a video where Linda trained her students how to do it harder.

Or one which withholds free access to water as a method of creating dependence.

Or one where a horse is forced, in a public demonstration no less, to accept a bridle by having his mouth chained to his leg. 

At the Horse of the year show, I stood for quite a long time and watched horses which had been made totally dependent on their handler. I have never seen so many horses in one small area with lifeless eyes.


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## Tiddlypom (1 August 2017)

Kayles said:



			I thought this was the inexperienced section "new owners"? Which forum should it have been on?
		
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As you were advised by me (who has used some basic Parelli training) in post #5, don't go looking on HHO for advice about Parelli. I'm sure that if you join the Parelli system (for a fee, of course), there are numerous threads about how to continue your Parelli journey.

Ester, that's interesting that some Parelli trainers are moving on from the system now, it was always likely to be a flash in the pan.


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## FestiveFuzz (1 August 2017)

Generally speaking, those that I have known in RL that practice parelli have been ones that lacked confidence, had overhorsed themselves and were nervous or were just pretty novice. 

In each situation I felt the trainer had taken advantage of the situation by creating a high level of dependency, resulting in the owner being too worried to deviate from plan and think for themselves. The cynic in me assumes that preying on such individuals is part of their marketing plan and how they manage to bleed so much money from their followers. A good trainer should give you confidence, help you work towards your goals in a timely fashion and empower you to develop your own toolkit so you are capable of problem solving independently of them. 

I still remember watching a 7yo trap their pony in a corner and proceed to smack it with a carrot stick. Pony was utterly confused and somewhat distressed and child was too young to truly read the body language. Trainer watched on and encouraged the child to "tap harder". It made for incredibly uncomfortable viewing and was just an accident waiting to happen IMO.


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## MotherOfChickens (1 August 2017)

my tuppence worth-I dislike nearly all natural horsemanship methods, those I like wouldnt label themselves as NH trainers. NH doesnt apply learning theory or correct behaviour-its entirely based on the trainer's interpretation of behaviour and they are never objective. I've also yet to expereince an NH trainer who's willing to admit a horse is having a pain reaction and they therefore rely on shutting the horse down mentally. Its surprising (and sad) how often this words. when it doesnt it can lead to a dangerous or spoiled horse. 
NH came about from a country whereby they want totally 'broke' horses, horses that will pack non riders around completely safely and not react to anything. I've known several good riders try Parelli a few years ago because they wanted to try a different approach-all of them wised up pretty quickly and either 

OP get yourself a good traditional instructor on the ground. If you want something different but kind, look up Ben Hart for you and your horse for some reading and stuff you can continue to do with them when you're by yourself.


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## ester (1 August 2017)

TP yes, the couple of people I know I am not entirely sure of their full opinion and suspect they still use some bits but could have found them through their own methods anyway. Both are very good horsepeople and teachers. I think a lot of people liked the structure and sense of progress/regular back pats etc - of course if you spent all that money on the program you are going to believe it works.

At the RS when I was a teen and it was all quite new someone decided to do it with their new horse. That horse was PTS 6 months later for being dangerous. He wasn't, we handled him happily as fairly clueless teens, he was just big (Clyde) and thoroughly confused as to what was expected.


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## Snuffles (1 August 2017)

Can I just muse (idly) that the School holidays are here !


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## tallyho! (1 August 2017)

Snuffles said:



			Can I just muse (idly) that the School holidays are here !
		
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Shush! I was about a enjoy a great bunfight... I even had my snacks prepared and cushions all arranged!!


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## Kayles (1 August 2017)

ester said:



			It's a scientific paper but there are plenty of opinion/easy read pieces about that bit of research if you can be bothered to use your google search. Basically all it confirms, by proper robust research, what we have said here about alpha mares not existing.

It isn't that we have a personal grudge against parcelling, we dislike it because we have done some research and recognise it's many flaws as a general programme. Research that anyone should be doing before embarking on a journey with a new horse and I'd highly recommend you take a trip round the internet. There are loads of user friendly articles that can be read by excellent horse people and once you have armed yourself with some more information you will be in a better position to decide how you want to proceed. 

It may also depend if you intend to sell or keep this horse, as you will reduce your market if it has been heavily parellid.
		
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Thanks. I think that's the problem really, so much info on the internet and knowing where to start. I have benefitted from this thread as Its opened my eyes to how many people are of the opinion that parelli is harsh when my limited knowledge of the subject, and advice from my instructor, lead me to think it's based on natural horsemanship. In conclusion, I think I'll extract what I need from the seven games and use it as a change up from good on hopping on and cracking on routine. I've also now made my backing goals clearer with my instructor and subsequently I'm sure we will re-evaluate and refocus our efforts. Thankyou all


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## Kayles (1 August 2017)

spacefaer said:



			Not HHO but a Parelli-friendly one, possibly American.

Parelli is not a system that sits well with people on this forum as whole, nor on the sub-forum "New Owners"

It's not a system that translates well into competitive riding, or indeed the horse being handled by non-Parelli based people.

I have just helped a friend of mine start her homebred 4 yr old. She has handled him since birth and done loads of in-hand work with him. Because she has followed a non-conventional groundwork method (not Parelli but similar), it has been very hard for the three of us (me, her and her young horse) to communicate.

It is like teaching a French speaking child how to write essays in English. We are getting there, but it has been confusing for all of us. And both my friend and I have a lot more experience with horses than you, OP. I have been backing a huge variety of horses for myself and other people for about 30 years.
		
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Thanks for this


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## Tiddlypom (1 August 2017)

Snuffles said:



			Can I just muse (idly) that the School holidays are here !
		
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tallyho! said:



			Shush! I was about a enjoy a great bunfight... I even had my snacks prepared and cushions all arranged!!
		
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Very probably you are both correct! However, there are still a lot of interesting views and experiences which folk have posted, so IMHO it's been quite informative.


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## ester (1 August 2017)

There were other idle musings  but it has been a while since it came up so .

And even in more general terms even the root concepts of 'natural horsemanship' and why that appeals to people is never a bad thing to address.


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## tallyho! (1 August 2017)

Tiddlypom said:



			Very probably you are both correct! However, there are still a lot of interesting views and experiences which folk have posted, so IMHO it's been quite informative.
		
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Good I'm glad. It's been well balanced so far given it's HHO...


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## fburton (1 August 2017)

ester said:



			TP yes, the couple of people I know I am not entirely sure of their full opinion and suspect they still use some bits but could have found them through their own methods anyway. Both are very good horsepeople and teachers
		
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I imagine that some former pupils of Parelli who have become teachers and trainers in their own right are better horsepeople than both Pat and Linda. Maybe even _much_ better.

Indeed, in my opinion that claim is pretty much proven when one considers the shameful episodes that have come to light via YouTube and their own DVDs - for example the Catwalk and Barney debacles.


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## fburton (1 August 2017)

Kayles said:



			... many people are of the opinion that parelli is harsh when my limited knowledge of the subject, and advice from my instructor, lead me to think it's based on natural horsemanship.
		
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It certainly can be harsh - horrifyingly so on some occasions, for some people including me. Their argument _might_ be that it may look harsh but, being "natural horsemanship" and therefore based on horses' own instincts and behaviours, it simply reflects - and is no worse than - what horses naturally do to each other. (I have heard this argument made explicitly by other NH clinicians and advocates.)

There are two problems with this view:

1) Horses are peaceable a lot more of their time than some give them credit for. Wild horse documentaries, for example, will inevitably show conflict and violence; horses co-existing peacefully and not doing very much for hours on end makes for boring TV, for most viewers. (Those who really _look_ will see that "not doing very much" is full of subtle signs indicative of perception or communication.)

2) Even though argy-bargy is inevitable on occasion (more so in domestic herds than typically occurs in the wild), that doesn't mean we need to emulate this behaviour with our horses. If you can modify a horse's behaviour to your wishes straightforwardly without using violence and with minimal force, why would you want to do otherwise?? It's rarely, if ever, actually _necessary_ to use violence or extreme force.

Just because horses sometimes kick and bite each other doesn't by itself mean it's justified or useful to do so ourselves, especially in routine training. Consistency, clarity, calm confidence, patience, timing - these are all _far_ more valuable qualities than skill in mirroring a horse's aggressive behaviours. Readiness to use the latter betrays deficiencies in the former, in my opinion.

Regrettably, people get away with being harsh because horses are so adaptable (even forgiving up to a point). It's their nature to put up with a lot of unnecessary pushiness and rough handling, and may well learn to do what's required of them in spite of it. However, don't mistake the success of such methods as indicating the need for harshness. Horses learn _despite_ it, not _because of_ it.


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## fburton (1 August 2017)

ester said:



			and of course the whole concept of an alpha mare has relatively recently been called into significant question anyway, so potentially a totally flawed behaviour to be working on 

https://www.researchgate.net/profil...ment-initiation-in-groups-of-feral-horses.pdf

Also if you are interested in behaviour and how you are working with it are you aware of the concept of learned helplessness? You might find a read of that helpful too.
		
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People might want to take a look at this "position statement" from the International Society for Equitation Science, reflecting current (and enlightened, imo) thinking on the issue.

http://equitationscience.com/equita...ship-and-dominance-concepts-in-horse-training

(As was pointed out in another thread where this statement was discussed, it could go further in being explicit about what constitutes misapplication of dominance, and give examples.)


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## fburton (1 August 2017)

Pearlsasinger said:



			If  you watch a herd for a decent length of time, you will see that there is no "Alpha mare".  Different horses take the lead at different times, in different situations.  Horses are wise enough to know that their relationships with humans are not the same as those with other horses.
		
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Absolutely!

There may be one horse in the herd (or possibly several) that consistently bullies the others. If this horse is able, for example, to push other horses away from their hay piles one would be justified in also labelling it as the most dominant, because the ability to displace other individuals in relation to wanted resources (often food) and to hold on to those resources is central to what dominance is.

It is natural for we humans (evolved from primates who were also hierarchy-aware) to call this dominant horse the "leader" of the herd, imbuing it with a positively admirable quality. This is appropriate in our human culture, because the leaders we admire tend to be dominant too. For horses, though, the bully may just be a bully. The "leader", i.e. the horse the others are willing to follow (assuming there is just one such horse, which often isn't the case), may or may not also be the dominant horse. There is no hard and fast rule. That's because dominance and leadership are different qualities/roles for horses, but people understandably tend to mix them up. When they do get equated, there is then the risk that in wanting to be a "good leader" to our horses we adopt practices that resemble dominance, or excuse such practices in others.


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## abbijay (1 August 2017)

I have to say I haven't seen much of parelli in recent years (I'm on a amateur competitive yard these days so it doesn't really fit with people's aims) but a few years ago I was on a yard with a number of "parelliteenies". It was certainly not for me . There seemed to be 2 uses for it: 1 was effectively trick training and those horses frequently seemed shut down and could be aggressive when handled using non-parelli techniques. The other was for unconfident and unknowledgeable owners trying to get their horse to do something they were too fearful to attempt without a system to back it up. 
One experience sticks out in my head: there was 2 lovely girls (close friends in their mid twenties) who had a TB and a coloured cob. The coloured cob needed to be sold due to family issues, they had already started playing with Parelli and the horse was known to be a bad loader. The horse sold and the poor girl came to speak to me one evening, panicking: it was only 1 week until the horse was being collected "but loading was a level 2 activity!" would she be able to get through all of level 1 in time? I managed to hide my distain that this lovely mare, who could be a bit stubborn, needed to do all these "games" before she was allowed to attempt to go on a trailer was utter rubbish, playing on the naivety and nervousness of this lovely girl. I felt this was a ridiculously prescriptive approach to horse training and does not recognise each horse as an individual. 
FWIW OP, I think you need to sack your "trainer" and get someone on board who can support you in your very realistic ambitions. From what you are already doing you sound a handful of weeks away from your goal not months and probably not even 10 weeks. If I were you I would be impatient to crack on!


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## MiJodsR2BlinkinTite (1 August 2017)

I have (deliberately) not read other responses on here.

There is a you-tube video showing Pat Parelli treating a horse really badly: IF anyone is thinking about Parelli training then they need to watch this!

I saw a really good promising young horse totally ruined by its naive novice owner who'd been throughly duped and blinded by the Parelli method. The "solution" to the resultant problems which the so-called "instructor" gave, was to "take the horse back to level 1 because it hadn't learnt the lessons there properly". 

I rest my case.


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