# why buy branded feed?



## cptrayes (1 November 2013)

I went into my local feed place and asked for two bags of their own brand CFS cubes. They misheard me and thought I'd said Spillers, and I nearly fell over backwards at the amount of money they asked for.

I'm really puzzled. The own brand cubes are made by a huge and very reputable manufacturer. 

If you buy branded horse food when you know own brand are available, why? I'm really intrigued.


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## dianchi (1 November 2013)

Sadly their isn't an own brand Calm and Condition I would be on it like a shot!

I would bet that their own brand are made by that reputable company in Braintree? Its a good money spinner that one!

I have swapped off Charnwood Linseed onto a cheaper/own brand one and saving a few extra £'s and its got a higher oil content!

I guess as the world of feeding is a pretty complicated place at the best of times people prefer to stick with what they know!


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## MiniMilton (1 November 2013)

In some cases it can be a false economy. As soon as I switched to a cheap own brand one my muck heap started growing some impressive crops. The horses were obviously getting no benefit of those particular grains.


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## HaffiesRock (1 November 2013)

I buy good old fashioned 24 hours soak beet pulp as its half the price of speedi beet. I also by Argo grass nuts which are much cheaper than the other grass nut alternatives.


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## JillA (1 November 2013)

HaffiesRock said:



			I buy good old fashioned 24 hours soak beet pulp as its half the price of speedi beet. I also by Argo grass nuts which are much cheaper than the other grass nut alternatives.
		
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But what sugar levels does the old fashioned one have? I have unmollassed, which means speedibeet or SS purabeet, because I have an IR horse and an itcher who does better on low sugar (which they all do unless they are in hard work TBH)


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## dogatemysalad (1 November 2013)

Because I know its GM free.


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## HaffiesRock (1 November 2013)

Its unmollased sugarbeet http://www.tridentfeeds.co.uk/products/equibeet/ only £6 a bag and lasts a month. I think it is only 6% sugar compared to about 5% for speedibeet, which is £12 odd in my tack shop.


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## Buddy'sMum (1 November 2013)

HaffiesRock said:



			I buy good old fashioned 24 hours soak beet pulp as its half the price of speedi beet. I also by Argo grass nuts which are much cheaper than the other grass nut alternatives.
		
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Shhh...don't tell everyone! ;-)


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## cptrayes (1 November 2013)

You can soak the sugar out of sugar beet anyway. Juat soak it in four times as much water as it needs for 24 hours, stir it and the water will go dark with molasses and then drain it in a seive. 

My horse food is not made in Braintree, it's made in Cheshire.  I don't believe that there is any differnce in quality between CFS cubes and Spillers, ive been feeding it for twenty two years and saved myself a fortune.



The no GM requirement is interesting, though not something which bothers me. 

The 'plants on the muckheap' would presumably only happen with mixes, and I don't feed them anyway because cubes are so much cheaper, and cooked and lots of horses with sensitive digestions seem to do better with cooked cubes than other feeds, if barefooter anecdotes are anything to go by.


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## Goldenstar (1 November 2013)

I don't  feed any cubes or mixes at all but do feed speedibeet because it's easy and micronised linseed .


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## dianchi (1 November 2013)

cptrayes said:



			You can soak the sugar out of sugar beet anyway. Juat soak it in four times as much water as it needs for 24 hours, stir it and the water will go dark with molasses and then drain it in a seive. 

My horse food is not made in Braintree, it's made in Cheshire.  I don't believe that there is any differnce in quality between CFS cubes and Spillers, ive been feeding it for twenty two years and saved myself a fortune.



The no GM requirement is interesting, though not something which bothers me. 

The 'plants on the muckheap' would presumably only happen with mixes, and I don't feed them anyway because cubes are so much cheaper, and cooked and lots of horses with sensitive digestions seem to do better with cooked cubes than other feeds, if barefooter anecdotes are anything to go by.
		
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Interesting, I only knew of that one selling an "own brand" product.

If the feed met my horses requirements I would have no issue in feeding it.

Interesting point on the nuts v mix!


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## wench (1 November 2013)

I always would feed nuts in preference to mix. Main point is its cheaper!

I only feed "branded" if I have to, ie if horse has special dietary needs, or if I'm competing.

I had one a couple of years ago that needed some weight putting on, did just as well on cheapo pony nuts, as some conditioning nuts!

If you are near a Mole Valley farmers, there food is "own brand" price... but is safe to feed to competition horses!


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## Overgrown Pony (1 November 2013)

I changed to the local agri merchants whole oats and full fat soya meal fed with Speedibeet about 6 weeks ago and my horse has never looked better and my wallet is thanking me.  I tried all the expensive conditioning feeds on the market last winter to no avail.


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## marmalade76 (1 November 2013)

I buy branded stuff.....

....when it's on the discount pallet and cheaper than the own brand! There's many a bargain to be had, it might be near it's use by date or have a hole in the bag and at half price I buy anything that's suitable for my animals. Other than that I buy own brand/off farm, etc. 

To the person who wants own brand C&C, why not buy beet instead as that's the main ingredient of C&C and you already feed linseed.


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## JillA (1 November 2013)

HaffiesRock said:



			Its unmollased sugarbeet http://www.tridentfeeds.co.uk/products/equibeet/ only £6 a bag and lasts a month. I think it is only 6% sugar compared to about 5% for speedibeet, which is £12 odd in my tack shop.
		
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Equibeet sounds good value - might get hold of some. I always soak for at least 8 hours anyway, but with an old dentally challenged mare on total hay replacer diet every couple of £££ on a bag makes a difference


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## Capriole (1 November 2013)

I don't mind, my supplier has some really decent own brand stuff. And I know last winter I was using a big brand nut they had bulk sold him, bagged in his own brand bags.
We tend to buy the main feed in bulk and we've got a really good deal on a branded nut this winter. Alongside that we will also be feeding some of his unbranded/own brand products.


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## Clava (1 November 2013)

JillA said:



			But what sugar levels does the old fashioned one have? I have unmollassed, which means speedibeet or SS purabeet, because I have an IR horse and an itcher who does better on low sugar (which they all do unless they are in hard work TBH)
		
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Equibeet (Eurobeet) is unmolassed but requires a long soak and is a lot cheaper than Speedibeet or kwikibeet.

(sorry crossed posted with HR)


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## Tnavas (1 November 2013)

JillA said:



			But what sugar levels does the old fashioned one have? I have unmollassed, which means speedibeet or SS purabeet, because I have an IR horse and an itcher who does better on low sugar (which they all do unless they are in hard work TBH)
		
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Unfortunately your horse is most likely a victim of the Commercially Prepared feeds. Since the introduction of these feeds we've seen a maassive increase in the metabolic ailments that were rarely if ever seen 30 years ago.

If you read some of the labels the content is horrific, Soy being the biggest culprit - it has been proved that it causes major metabolic upsets in humans - so why feed it to your horse as well. In some feeds peanut hulls have been used to bulk up the feed. Broll/Bran/Mill Run is all wheat and we know that wheat is not good for horses.

For those of you that are feeding normal 'straight' feeds - if you find whole grains coming through then increase the fibre you are adding to the feed so that it slows the digestive process through the horse. Feed it by weight not volume - 75% of a feed should be fibre and never ever less than 50%.

I've never fed a commercially prepared feed over and have had hundreds of horses in my care and also owned a good few and have never had a horse with insulin resistance and during my time in the UK - 20+ years I fed sugarbeet (traditional with molasses added) to everything, no IR or laminitis - EVER.

Commercially prepared foods are exceedingly expensive and believe me the only real research that may have been done on them is the stuff fed to racehorses.

The best hard feed for any equine is oats and this has been proven!


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## SatansLittleHelper (1 November 2013)

Interesting thread. I dont feed cubes, nuts, mix etc but do use balancers. Does anyone know of a good own brand balancer?? Ive yet to find any to be honest but would definately give one a go x


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## dianchi (1 November 2013)

marmalade76 said:



			I buy branded stuff.....

....when it's on the discount pallet and cheaper than the own brand! There's many a bargain to be had, it might be near it's use by date or have a hole in the bag and at half price I buy anything that's suitable for my animals. Other than that I buy own brand/off farm, etc. 

To the person who wants own brand C&C, why not buy beet instead as that's the main ingredient of C&C and you already feed linseed.
		
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For some reason my mare wont eat just a bowl of sugar beet, I think its the texture she doesn't like, with C&C we soak it overnight and it goes more solid so she can bite at it.

Plus sugar beet in the summer is a nightmare to try and soak and keep nice!


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## JillA (1 November 2013)

Tnavas said:



			Unfortunately your horse is most likely a victim of the Commercially Prepared feeds. Since the introduction of these feeds we've seen a maassive increase in the metabolic ailments that were rarely if ever seen 30 years ago.
		
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If only it were that simple!!  I know someone who says it is due to the fact that most equines these days don't get enough work - lots of pet theories abound. Where is the proof about oats? I'd be interested in seeing that - I have very rarely fed oats, over the years, preferring barley when I had enough horses to justify buying an assortment of straights. I suspect the metabolic issues are related to high levels of sugar over time, rather like diabetes I people - and yes, a lot of the mixes or prepared foods have molasses to increase palatability and maybe disguise some nasties


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## ester (1 November 2013)

have always used own brand nuts and usually molassed sugar beet shreds (all from mole valley). He's on A+P fastfibre atm though (and oats - obv any brand). 

Re the oats/barley I do remember reading that historically we have fed more barley than oats in this country whereas in the US they think barley sends horses loopy and feed oats.


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## Tnavas (1 November 2013)

JillA said:



			If only it were that simple!!  I know someone who says it is due to the fact that most equines these days don't get enough work - lots of pet theories abound. Where is the proof about oats? I'd be interested in seeing that - I have very rarely fed oats, over the years, preferring barley when I had enough horses to justify buying an assortment of straights. I suspect the metabolic issues are related to high levels of sugar over time, rather like diabetes I people - and yes, a lot of the mixes or prepared foods have molasses to increase palatability and maybe disguise some nasties
		
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It does all boil down to the fact that people feed their horses far more than we used to. I remember as a child/teenager my pony rarely ever had hard feed - I rode and competed off grass alone.

I will try and find out the details about the oat thing - the Fiber Fresh nutritionist was talking about this at the recent Equidays NZ - Pony Club Camp. A link to this company http://www.fiber-fresh.com/equine/ their products are totally fibre, cut, wilted and vacuum packed within hours of harvesting. I have the nutritionists card so will contact her and ask her where she got the information.


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## ellie11987 (1 November 2013)

Tnavas said:



			For those of you that are feeding normal 'straight' feeds - if you find whole grains coming through then increase the fibre you are adding to the feed so that it slows the digestive process through the horse. Feed it by weight not volume - 75% of a feed should be fibre and never ever less than 50%.

I've never fed a commercially prepared feed over and have had hundreds of horses in my care and also owned a good few and have never had a horse with insulin resistance and during my time in the UK - 20+ years I fed sugarbeet (traditional with molasses added) to everything, no IR or laminitis - EVER.

Commercially prepared foods are exceedingly expensive and believe me the only real research that may have been done on them is the stuff fed to racehorses.

The best hard feed for any equine is oats and this has been proven!
		
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This... I don't feed any commercial feeds anymore. Mine gets unmolassed beet, grass nuts, oats and linseed. I want to know exactly what she is eating, and not all these additives like soya and molasses. I don't bother with branded feeds for this reason - I only feed cheap straights and add my own minerals for forage balancing. Simples.


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## Tnavas (1 November 2013)

ellie11987 said:



			This... I don't feed any commercial feeds anymore. Mine gets unmolassed beet, grass nuts, oats and linseed. I want to know exactly what she is eating, and not all these additives like soya and molasses. I don't bother with branded feeds for this reason - I only feed cheap straights and add my own minerals for forage balancing. Simples.
		
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Great - Horse is healthier, you can reduce or increase the energy foods if the horse is being cheeky - and its sooo much cheaper too!


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## deicinmerlyn (1 November 2013)

Are grass nuts barefoot friendly, does anyone know.


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## Tnavas (1 November 2013)

deicinmerlyn said:



			Are grass nuts barefoot friendly, does anyone know.
		
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Possibly but may have molasses used to bind the grass meal


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## Tilo (1 November 2013)

Its just a shame that the only company who do grass nuts that are less than 14% protein, is simple systems though. I would love to feed them, but the protein is too high for my old pony. 
I feed Mollichaff, dare i admit!! No hard feeds, just the chaff that has added vits with no alfalfa.


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## Tnavas (1 November 2013)

Tilo said:



			Its just a shame that the only company who do grass nuts that are less than 14% protein, is simple systems though. I would love to feed them, but the protein is too high for my old pony. 
I feed Mollichaff, dare i admit!! No hard feeds, just the chaff that has added vits with no alfalfa.
		
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The protein level would only be a problem if you fed less than the recommended amount


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## Scarlett (2 November 2013)

All the grss nuts I've tried have been molasses free and make a super feed for my barefoot TB's


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## cptrayes (2 November 2013)

Tilo said:



			Its just a shame that the only company who do grass nuts that are less than 14% protein, is simple systems though. I would love to feed them, but the protein is too high for my old pony. 
I feed Mollichaff, dare i admit!! No hard feeds, just the chaff that has added vits with no alfalfa.
		
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What problem does your pony have that makes 14% protein an issue?

I ask because there used to be a widely believed myth that high protein caused laminitis and if you've been told that, he may be safe with grass nuts after all??


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## gingernut81 (2 November 2013)

If anyone does molasses free alfa-a I'd love to know as I'm going through one bag every 20 days.   I looked at our local own brand but second ingredient is molasses.  Would have bought it otherwise.   I will say though that he's only on that,  speedi-beet and linseed and looks amazing.  :0)


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## MiniMilton (2 November 2013)

Tnavas said:



			The protein level would only be a problem if you fed less than the recommended amount
		
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I thought too much protein causes high blood urea and ammonia and is bad for horses


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## JillA (2 November 2013)

minimilton said:



			I thought too much protein causes high blood urea and ammonia and is bad for horses
		
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I suspect it would have to be extremely high for it to have that kind of effect?


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## MiniMilton (2 November 2013)

JillA said:



			I suspect it would have to be extremely high for it to have that kind of effect?
		
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An equine nutritionist told me an average horse can only utilise 10-12%, any more than that and it has to be converted into urea putting unnecessary strain on liver and kidneys. Why choose to feed too much protein when you can choose to feed the correct amount instead?


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## JillA (2 November 2013)

minimilton said:



			An equine nutritionist told me an average horse can only utilise 10-12%, any more than that and it has to be converted into urea putting unnecessary strain on liver and kidneys. Why choose to feed too much protein when you can choose to feed the correct amount instead?
		
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But that would be of the whole diet wouldn't it? Average across grass/forage and any concentrates and I doubt whether it would come anywhere near that. It is always difficult to work out totals and overall percentages unless you have a consistent hay/haylage and have it analysed - that is by far the highest proportion of what they eat, and as for grass - who knows how much they are getting on a daily basis? That's why it can be so hard to work out how much dry matter each is getting against the ideal, and why feeding can be more of an art than a science, IMHO.
Protein is essential to convert into amino acids to provide soft tissue and an effective immune system, I imagine there are quite wide parameters but I would always make sure they are getting sufficient, especially of lysine.


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## MiniMilton (2 November 2013)

JillA said:



			But that would be of the whole diet wouldn't it? Average across grass/forage and any concentrates and I doubt whether it would come anywhere near that. It is always difficult to work out totals and overall percentages unless you have a consistent hay/haylage and have it analysed - that is by far the highest proportion of what they eat, and as for grass - who knows how much they are getting on a daily basis? That's why it can be so hard to work out how much dry matter each is getting against the ideal, and why feeding can be more of an art than a science, IMHO.
Protein is essential to convert into amino acids to provide soft tissue and an effective immune system, I imagine there are quite wide parameters but I would always make sure they are getting sufficient, especially of lysine.
		
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Ok I understand what you're saying. Does that not make it more important to buy branded feeds that are sufficiently analysed to show the lysine content rather than buying an unbranded feed high in protein in the hope it has sufficient lysine? Any unbranded feeds I've bought have had the bare minimum of nutritional information on the bag. Or have I been throwing money down the drain on expensive feeds? The marketing departments probably love fools like me!


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## cptrayes (2 November 2013)

minimilton said:



			Ok I understand what you're saying. Does that not make it more important to buy branded feeds that are sufficiently analysed to show the lysine content rather than buying an unbranded feed high in protein in the hope it has sufficient lysine? Any unbranded feeds I've bought have had the bare minimum of nutritional information on the bag. Or have I been throwing money down the drain on expensive feeds? The marketing departments probably love fools like me!
		
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I'd bet my bottom dollar that they've all got hte same things in them, because they are made by the same companies and then put into different bags. I can't believe that they change all their recipes going through the factories for a iimited run for one Farm Supplies shop 

My  understanding is the the vitamins and minerals that are added are bought from one supplier as a premix, and that all the feed companies use the same stuff, but that could be out of date information by now.


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## holeymoley (2 November 2013)

My feed shop only really does brand names. They have unbranded chaff and mix/cubes but I find the chaff is mainly chop with a hell of a lot of molasses through it which is no use. The cubes are okay but they are quite 'crummy' as such.  Never bought the mix as not something I use but I'd imagine its mollassed and sticky as such.


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## cobs and carrots (3 November 2013)

With my poor-doer I fed unbranded horse and pony mix with her hi fi original, purely I was tired of buying branded feeds for extortionate prices - honestly the best thing I ever did!! She was calm, had no tummy upsets, she put on condition and it gave her a wonderful shine - much preferred it to the previous (very expensive) branded feed I used to use.

I tend to steer clear of own brand chaff though, as it often has absolutely loads of mollases in it - and my good doer who only gets a feed of chaff and herbs really doesnt need that much sugar and starch!


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## HashRouge (3 November 2013)

I've only recently started to feed my mare. For the best part of ten years she did everything with just a handful of chop and a few carrots (so she didn't feel left out when the others on the yard got fed ). With just hay and grass she was still as lively as they come! Now I have to work a bit harder to keep condition on her so she gets a proper feed, but has unfortunately decided (after years of hankering after "proper" feed) that she is a super fussy eater! So I basically feed her whatever I can get her to eat that is low in sugar. Currently she is having a mixture of Coolstance copra and speedibeet. I've never really though about own brand feeds and I would certainly consider feeding them BUT tbh I am happy to pay a little extra for these two because they are both quick soaking. For some reason my mare tends to turn her nose up at soaked feeds that have been left for any length of time - my best chance of getting her to eat them seems to be to make with warm water then feed as soon as they have soaked for long enough. Plus she is SO fussy that I'm reluctant to change her feed now that I've *frantically touching wood* found something she will eat on a regular basis.


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## Exploding Chestnuts (3 November 2013)

Of course you can remove the molasses in molassed s/b but you also remove the minerals, and to be honest, faffing about in the middle of winter with buckets of water twice a day is not much fun, also it is not consistent/scientific.
I spent a lot of time last year working on a diet for my boy who had been barefoot, and as mentioned elsewhere, it is the cost of the MINERALS which makes the difference.
Marketing costs particularly for branded feeds, add on the cost of research, analysis,  and quality control, but what you find is that the volumes of feed recommended are often higher than most people feed, this in fact means that most horses are not getting the full recommended amounts of mins and vits.
So be sensible, get quick beet at 5% sugar, add water, add balanced minerals and add micronised linseed plus some good chaff [non  molassed]
All I do is make up a mix of chaff and beet once a month, I use a scoop which contains 400 or 500 grams, add a scoop of linseed which contains 100 gms, and a scoop of minerals which contains 30 grams. Add water to make sure it is all soaked, and split in to two feeds. Time taken, 5 mins per day.
Minerals cost approx 45p per day [and that is top brands bought in bulk for 150 days] the linseed and the s/beet work out at 45-55 pence per day.
Since I stopped using cereals/wheatfeed as in bagged feeds, the skin is no longer itchy and the hair colour is dark and glossy all year round. 
I dont ' feed as much in summer, but still provide a tiny feed, the coat colour does not wash out like it used to.


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## cptrayes (3 November 2013)

MrsD123 said:



			Of course you can remove the molasses in molassed s/b but you also remove the minerals, and to be honest, faffing about in the middle of winter with buckets of water twice a day is not much fun, also it is not consistent.
		
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It's completely consistent, I don't understand your point on that. 

I'm not aware of what minerals are in sugar beet that are water soluble?

I don't feed it for anything but bulk and to damp down mineral supplements and brewers yeast, and for that purpose it's less than half the price of speedibeet.

I cannot feed a 17 hand ultra fit hunter the way you describe, he would end up a hatrack before half way through the season. 

Horses for courses, eh?


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## Tnavas (3 November 2013)

cptrayes said:



			It's completely consistent, I don't understand your point on that. 

I'm not aware of what minerals are in sugar beet that are water soluble?

I don't feed it for anything but bulk and to damp down mineral supplements and brewers yeast, and for that purpose it's less than half the price of speedibeet.

I cannot feed a 17 hand ultra fit hunter the way you describe, he would end up a hatrack before half way through the season. 

Horses for courses, eh?
		
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When Sugarbeet is processed Calcium is added to the mix to assist in clumping impurities, the resulting dried sugarbeet is high in Calcium.

I personally feel that draining the water off it probably doesn't remove much and as the horse is not receiving much in the way of grain feeds a calcium : Phosphorous inbalance should not be a problem.


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## cptrayes (3 November 2013)

Tnavas said:



			When Sugarbeet is processed Calcium is added to the mix to assist in clumping impurities, the resulting dried sugarbeet is high in Calcium.

I personally feel that draining the water off it probably doesn't remove much and as the horse is not receiving much in the way of grain feeds a calcium : Phosphorous inbalance should not be a problem.
		
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Tnavas my understanding of calcium/phosphorus ratio is that provided the horse has sufficient phosphorous in its diet, an excess of calcium is not an issue.  That is to say, too much phosphorus is an issue, too much calcium is not. Which is why it is safe to feed limestone flour, as many people in low calcium areas of the UK do.

Is this incorrect, in your view?

Secondly, if calcium is added to make impurities clump during sugar beet processing, then it will be on the outside of the beet shreds, since it is insoluble in water, and will be washed off if you soak to remove sugar.


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## Tnavas (3 November 2013)

cptrayes said:



			Tnavas my understanding of calcium/phosphorus ratio is that provided the horse has sufficient phosphorous in its diet, an excess of calcium is not an issue.  That is to say, too much phosphorus is an issue, too much calcium is not. Which is why it is safe to feed limestone flour, as many people in low calcium areas of the UK do.

Is this incorrect, in your view?

Secondly, if calcium is added to make impurities clump during sugar beet processing, then it will be on the outside of the beet shreds, since it is insoluble in water, and will be washed off if you soak to remove sugar.
		
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No worries about excess Calcium to a degree - but excessive feeding of Lucerne can cause stones to develop in the gut. But excess phosphorous is not good - causes a loss of bone density. 

If the horse is on a no grain diet then the loss of the Calcium by rinsing the soaked sugarbeet is not a problem, however if the horse is on a grain based diet then the loss of the calcium would be a problem. 

To be honest the amount of molasses in Sugarbeet is so minimal it should hardly be a problem to any horse - we used to feed it by the bucket load when I worked in UK with no ill effects. My Clydie was getting a litre jug daily (prior to soaking) which weighed very little. The amount of molasses is negligable.


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## cptrayes (3 November 2013)

The amount of sugar in sugar beet depends on the batch.

My research identified that the process stops extracting sugar when it has reached a certain concentration. So if the batch is a sweet one, the resulting sugar beet pulp is also sweeter. On top of that, they add molasses that turns it black.

Some batches can taste very sweet, and yes, I do taste it!

Many barefoot horses in the UK cannot tolerate the sugar levels in molassed sugar beet. I soak mine in summer because I have one, but I am too mean to buy speedibeet and my supplier will not stock unmolassed pellets.


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## Tnavas (3 November 2013)

cptrayes said:



			The amount of sugar in sugar beet depends on the batch.

My research identified that the process stops extracting sugar when it has reached a certain concentration. So if the batch is a sweet one, the resulting sugar beet pulp is also sweeter. On top of that, they add molasses that turns it black.

Some batches can taste very sweet, and yes, I do taste it!

Many barefoot horses in the UK cannot tolerate the sugar levels in molassed sugar beet. I soak mine in summer because I have one, but I am too mean to buy speedibeet and my supplier will not stock unmolassed pellets.
		
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You are sooo lucky in UK - in NZ all the sugarbeet forms are the same expensive price because we have to import it from the Northern Hemisphere - all our sugar here in NZ comes from Sugar Cane.


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## khalswitz (3 November 2013)

I have to admit I do find this a bit funny. Feeding straights is completely fair enough, much cheaper and as long as you know what you're doing works just as well if not better, but anyone who thinks they are getting a 'big brand' for cheap from own brand suppliers is being fooled big time.

I know for a FACT that at the very least the big brand company I've had dealings with as an equine nutrition student makes the 'own brand' feed they sell to small suppliers in a completely different part of the factory, and uses all the low quality end of the raw ingredients they buy in to make these feeds - it's their way of selling off what isn't good enough for their own brand image but still making money off it. It doesn't need to meet GM restrictions, Laminitis Trust restrictions, or (importantly!) BETA restrictions, which is the control of Naturally Occurring Prohibited Substances stuff important for any horses competing at affiliated level, PC or RC competition. Also read the labels regarding the forms of the minerals etc - often less efficiently uptaken mineral forms are used as these are cheaper to produce.

Personally, I fed straights up until my current horse who has PSSM. With him, he needs a high oil diet, but being fussy won't touch linseed or oil in feed, plus won't eat enough beet or alfalfa chaff to meet his energy requirements. So I've resorted to a big brand racehorse pellet that is high oil but he can't taste it... and a balancer as I've been recommended high protein levels for his muscular problems by my vet and nutritionist, and I don't feed manufacturers recommendations of pellets. But I wouldn't touch cheap impersonations o it with a bargepole - at least I know that big manufacturers are super regulated, and nothing they say on the bag can be a false claim under BETA rules - I certainly wouldn't trust a plain bag of cubes that's for sure.


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## Exploding Chestnuts (4 November 2013)

I found that branded feeds v unbranded feeds meant that the extra visual sparkle was lost in about 2 weeks. The only logical explanation is insufficient vits and balanced minerals.
Regarding feeding a fit horse in work, I stand by my barefoot diet, but more of the same. The micronised linseed will condition any horse, it is cheaper than supermarket oils and is less processed.
If it is not a good idea to feed a barefoot horse molassed feed, then I can 't see why a shod horse should be fed molassed nuts if we are talking fit horse in medium work. Though most ponies are only kept on maintenance in winter.
The only cereal I would use for the average fit horse is plain bruised oats, a traditional feed for hunters:  not wheat, or wheat-feed which is a staple in most bagged feeds. Horses like oats, and they are still used in many racehorse stables for when they are in full work.
I have yet to see anyone else in the feed room weighing their ingredients, and none of them feed balanced minerals, though a variety of empty containers of all sorts of supplements are tried regularly, which suggests the owners are not happy with their existing feed or are tempted by the targeted marketing of the specialist supplement companies. Many of these supplements cost £1.00 per day, and they are used [or should be used] in addition to the basic mineral and vitamins required.
The main part of the diet is the forage, and very few horses will lose weight if fed good quality ad lib hay or haylage. I would certainly be worried if they did.
I agree that molassed nuts in the UK are less expensive than non molassed, but am not convinced that makes the argument for using it.
The bio availability of minerals is important , some are water soluble, as are some of the vitamins. Some of the cheaper magnesium sources are high in heavy metals, so it is vital to feed feeds which are of the highest quality , as over a horse's lifetime both in the short and in the long term this will make a big difference.  Seaweed, once seen as a natural product full of vitamins and minerals, is now less popular as it is not balanced for horses, why should it be?
All I can say is that my horses always look better than anyone elses', I put this down to their diet and even in summer, I feed a small feed to carry the essentials, the feet grow 12 months of the year and it will be 3-6 months before the walls grow down to the ground.
The school horses are fed on soaked molassed  s/beet and unbranded nuts. They are all in good working condition but their coats are all fairly dull, and what with health and safety, they won't be coming out of their boxes kicking and squealing on a frosty morning.


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## flintfootfilly (4 November 2013)

I have always stuck to branded feeds, and will continue to do so, because I do think that "the big names" are more likely to worry about their reputation and therefore are more likely to be better on quality control.

However, whilst checking out a variety of feeds and supplements from well known companies over the last couple of years, I have been horrified by the discrepancy between details of the mineral analyses given on the websites, product labels and verbally over the phone from the company's nutritionists/representatives.  Some word their literature in such a way that it is quite misleading.  

For example, one well known company promotes the fact it uses organic selenium in its products, but when you look at the product label, it turns out that they use both organic AND inorganic.  It would be very easy to assume that they used only organic from the way the promotional material is worded, but they aren't actually doing anything "wrong" by forgetting to mention that they also include inorganic.

Another told me they only use organic selenium.  A year later, they said the formulation hadn't changed, and that they only use inorganic selenium!

Another gave incorrect figures on the product label.  The amount of sodium selenite did not tie in with the amount of elemental selenium which they said the product contained.  They apologised and said they'd change their label.

Another says on their website and over the phone that they use only organic selenium, but the label says it only includes selenium in the form of sodium selenite.  They have been very helpful and confirmed that the label is wrong, and is being corrected for the next batch of product manufactured.

So, for me, I need to trust that the manufacturer is going to do the best they can to ensure that the right ingredients go into the product, and that their literature accurately reflects this.  I accept that everyone makes mistakes, but I do still believe (rightly or wrongly) that the larger companies are likely to pay more attention to detail.

Sarah


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## cptrayes (4 November 2013)

That's an answer I can fully understand, FFF

mrsd 123. I could write exactly the same about my horses as you do about yours. They are shiny, bright eyed and bouncing with energy. Their feet grow in four to five months.

I take your point about oats, but they are terribly bulky and the horse I would need to feed them to takes an age to eat enough quantity. I'm not into going out to give him a third feed at bedtime, so I like to feed the more energy dense cubes.  

I'm not sure that you understand how many calories a really fit 700 kilo horse like mine needs in the middle of the hunting season.


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## cptrayes (4 November 2013)

Some parts of this thread are reading a bit barefoot talibanish. I'd just like to point out to the general reader  that there are plenty of barefoot horses that do fine with commercial feeds. If people are struggling with footiness then they may need a stripped down diet or precise mineral balancing, but by no means do all of them.


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## Exploding Chestnuts (4 November 2013)

Yep, well,  I am used to the feeding of 500kg racehorses, who are about maintained at a similar level of fitness [eg pt to point], they do get fed three meals a day plus haylage, but I understand that one of the benefits of non molassed s/beet is the slow release of energy.
I dont want to "argue" but the energy dense cubes can 't really be more dense unless one is using oil, eg linseed meal!
signing off now.............


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## cptrayes (4 November 2013)

The argument that it costs less to feed straights only works if you buy branded cubes. I've tried oats and I have to feed the same weight, and the straight oats cost as much per kilo as my Farm Supplies cubes. My cubes are made locally by Lea Oakes and I think they are identical to the ones they sell branded as Equerry. 

I did buy 'white bag' from another supplier once and I didn't feel the quality was as good. So perhaps, like in the supermarket, 'own brand' is fine if you know the source, but completely nameless is more inconsistent?


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## Exploding Chestnuts (4 November 2013)

cptrayes said:



			Some parts of this thread are reading a bit barefoot talibanish. I'd just like to point out to the general reader  that there are plenty of barefoot horses that do fine with commercial feeds. If people are struggling with footiness then they may need a stripped down diet or precise mineral balancing, but by no means do all of them.
		
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I am sure I was not one of the Taliban, not against cubes, my point is that I used to feed the branded feeds and later I changed from cereal based diet to high fibre, with oil [linseed meal] and branded minerals, that the horse looks better, maintains condition and it is cheaper! My study of the diet was prompted partly by the barefoot business [no molasses] but also the cost.
It is noted that one poster uses branded foods because of the quality control, but has had problems with quality assurance!


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## cptrayes (4 November 2013)

MrsD123 said:



			Yep, well,  I am used to the feeding of 500kg racehorses, who are about maintained at a similar level of fitness [eg pt to point], they do get fed three meals a day plus haylage, but I understand that one of the benefits of non molassed s/beet is the slow release of energy.
I dont want to "argue" but the energy dense cubes can 't really be more dense unless one is using oil, eg linseed meal!
signing off now.............
		
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I will be using oil once we really get going. Supermarket rapeseed oil, added to his cubes.

You don't seem to understand mrsd, that I AM feeding unmolassed beet in spring and summer. The only difference is that I am prepared to soak it in masses more water than it needs and drain it before feeding. I do that because it costs one third of what it costs to buy the only unmolassed beet my supplier will stock.

Of course cubes can be more energy dense per kilo than straight oats. It depends a lot on the level of fibre and water.


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## khalswitz (4 November 2013)

MrsD123 said:



			I am sure I was not one of the Taliban, not against cubes, my point is that I used to feed the branded feeds and later I changed from cereal based diet to high fibre, with oil [linseed meal] and branded minerals, that the horse looks better, maintains condition and it is cheaper! My study of the diet was prompted partly by the barefoot business [no molasses] but also the cost.
It is noted that one poster uses branded foods because of the quality control, but has had problems with quality assurance!
		
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I would also like to add that not all branded feeds are high cereals? That seems to be being assumed a bit here. I only switched to branded feed when I needed a low starch, low sugar feed for a fussy horse that wouldn't touch linseed or eat enough sugar beet. For example Winergy and Dengie are very much high fibre low starch, balancers are usually low in sugar and starch, feeds like Baileys Endurance Mix(I believe although haven't checked this one in a while) and Outshine, D&H Staypower Cubes or ERS Pellets, all are feeds I looked at for my PSSM horse, so would be suitable for a barefoot horse too I would imagine.

Personally I would always choose either to feed straights, or to feed a BETA approved branded feed, so I know what my horse is getting! Anyone selling you a white bag saying 'it's basically Bailey's No 4 for half the price' is blatantly lying to you - I've know how the big companies manufacture the feed they sell in white bags to small, own brand stockists and it is totally different!


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## Fransurrey (4 November 2013)

Tnavas said:



			Unfortunately your horse is most likely a victim of the Commercially Prepared feeds. Since the introduction of these feeds we've seen a maassive increase in the metabolic ailments that were rarely if ever seen 30 years ago.
		
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Tnavas said:



			It does all boil down to the fact that people feed their horses far more than we used to. I remember as a child/teenager my pony rarely ever had hard feed - I rode and competed off grass alone.
		
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My pony never used to get any feed at all in the summer and only got chaff in the winter. He's an EMS case most certainly not caused by commercial feeds. Even now he only gets chaff (getting harder and harder to buy unmollassed stuff round here which pees me off!) and speedibeet in the winter. I can't even buy normal beet at my local 'large' feed merchant.


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## Buddy'sMum (4 November 2013)

Tnavas said:



			It does all boil down to the fact that people feed their horses far more than we used to. I remember as a child/teenager my pony rarely ever had hard feed - I rode and competed off grass alone.
		
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^^this^^
with a bit of molassed (horrors!) sugar beet in winter, maybe some oats if pony was working really hard.
None of the ponies on my old riding school/yard ever had lami and they were all out eating the green stuff every day.


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## khalswitz (4 November 2013)

Difference between ponies and horses though. My sister's pony never had anything other than grass or hay, and that was up until last year! However if any of my TBs were fed only that they'd have wasted away in winter... plus my horses are in a lot harder work than the ponies ever were. I think it's very generalised to say everyone overfeeds their horses, and then use ponies as an example - two very different things.


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## Buddy'sMum (4 November 2013)

khalswitz said:



			Difference between ponies and horses though. My sister's pony never had anything other than grass or hay, and that was up until last year! However if any of my TBs were fed only that they'd have wasted away in winter... plus my horses are in a lot harder work than the ponies ever were. I think it's very generalised to say everyone overfeeds their horses, and then use ponies as an example - two very different things.
		
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Well, ok, point taken but none of the 100+ ponies or horses on my yard ever got lami or had metabolic issues and they were all fed sugar beet, some got oats and all got the occasional bran mash (gasp!). And that included eveything from riding school ponies to hard-working hunters and graded showjumpers.

You don't have to look very far these days to see obese horses and ponies and just about everyone I know has a pony or horse with lami. And that's definitely not how it was 20 years ago. So generally, yes, I do think most (not all!) people overfeed (and under exercise) their horses/ponies.


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (4 November 2013)

I think much of it depends what you are feeding for and why, people are driven to experiment through problems or desperation normally and if they find a solution that works they cling to it!

CS is EPSM, idle, ulcery. Having tried various *ulcer friendly* fibre based diets that made him dull and irritable, I gave up and moved to a cereal based (havens slobbermash) energy diet......he's round, shiney, bouncy and has a happy tum despite on paper the diet being all wrong.
I possibly could mix straights myself to mimic the havens, but not sure i dare change it ?! If anyone can suggest the best ratio/ ingredients i would think about trying it, but that degree of nutrition is a bit beyond me! He gets winergy high energy as a chaff ( again, shouldn't work but does) the main ingredient of which I believe is alfalfa and I'm not aware of a local own brand pure alfalfa chaff (leics/notts) so re mixing that myself is out I think ?

He gets linseed but other than a nice coat and some weight gain, it doesn't help his ulcers or energy!  Open to ideas but perhaps many are like me and are driven to stick with the one commercial feed they find makes a big diff?


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## PolarSkye (4 November 2013)

Prince33Sp4rkle said:



			Open to ideas but perhaps many are like me and are driven to stick with the one commercial feed they find makes a big diff?
		
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This would describe me.  FWIW, Kal gets ERS Pellets, an unmolassed chaff, Blue Chip Original and micronised linseed . . . and, in the winter, Speedibeet.  Why?  Because it works for us.  Molasses makes him lose the plot, the high oil content in the ERS Pellets and the linseed give him condition and slow-release energy without fizz, and Blue Chip is as good a balancer as I have found and doesn't send him round the twist.  For a horse prone to ulcers, who can't tolerate sugar, and is difficult to keep condition on in the winter, why would I take the risk of changing what works and risking a white bag feed?  

Don't get me wrong, I'm not knocking white bag feeds . . . and to those of you who feed them, I say more power to you . . . but having found something that works for my boy - and having learnt the hard way - I prefer to stick with keeps him happy, healthy and sane.

P


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## Hedwards (4 November 2013)

PolarSkye said:



			but having found something that works for my boy - and having learnt the hard way - I prefer to stick with keeps him happy, healthy and sane.
P
		
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This ^^ (I'm not stalking you PS honest!)

I've been to hell and back getting my geldings diet right (and its only been tiny tweaks) to deal with his ulcers etc. and now i know what works, the only way i'd change it would be if i couldnt get hold of what i feed now! (Dengie Hi-Fi unmollassed, ERS pellets (if he's in enough work to require them), Boswellia, Lifeforce, and now its getting colder he'll go back onto Micronised linseed) he's out 24/7 and we'll start to add hay to the fields in the next few weeks.


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## PolarSkye (4 November 2013)

Hedwards said:



			This ^^ (I'm not stalking you PS honest!)
		
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Ha ha ha!  .

P


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## Tnavas (4 November 2013)

Fransurrey said:



			My pony never used to get any feed at all in the summer and only got chaff in the winter. He's an EMS case most certainly not caused by commercial feeds. Even now he only gets chaff (getting harder and harder to buy unmollassed stuff round here which pees me off!) and speedibeet in the winter. I can't even buy normal beet at my local 'large' feed merchant.
		
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Have you owned this pony since the day it was born? If not then the damage could already have been done before you got it.

Buddy'sMum - sounds like you and I must have worked at the same yard!!

My riding school horses - all TB's used to winter on grass, hay twice daily and a feed when they worked. They were not clipped and wore one wool lined canvas cover. Though winters in Canterbury (NZ) are not as prolonged or severe it does snow well at times. During snowy periods hay was increased. They all wintered well.

One of the additional things we fed the school ponies in the UK was Horlicks - we'ed get drums of seconds and they'd get a standard scoop in each feed. That has a lot of sugar in it yet we had no problem with Lami. EVER!

I will repeat that the majority of horses and ponies are seriously overfed and owners really need to stop being brainwashed by the feed companies. 

Learn about feeding straights - it's how us oldies learnt - we read our Pony Club manual, asked, listened and experimented. It is not rocket science and reading and asking people who actually feed straights - not the feed merchant as he will want to make money from you also helped.


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## khalswitz (4 November 2013)

Tnavas said:



			Learn about feeding straights - it's how us oldies learnt - we read our Pony Club manual, asked, listened and experimented. It is not rocket science and reading and asking people who actually feed straights - not the feed merchant as he will want to make money from you also helped.
		
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Like I said, it doesn't always work. I was trained by an old school horsewoman as well and I fed straights (including the odd bran mash) up until my current horse - but it just doesn't work for him. EPSM horse, so needs low sugar, low starch and high fat and fibre, but won't touch oil in his feed, or micronised linseed, and won't eat enough beet for his energy requirements (poor doing eventer in training!). Can't have cereals of any kind as too high starch. As someone who always fed straights I was shocked I couldn't find a way round this - but on Alfa-A Oil and ERS Pellets with a stud balancer he is great, and has put on around 60kg since I took him off the straights which weren't working for him - finally looking and working well.

Overfeeding and using branded feeds are not the same thing at all. Plenty of people use branded feeds and don't feed to manufacturers recommendations, and plenty of people find themselves struggling to keep condition with a branded feed let alone having overweight, ems/cushings horses on their hands. 

As far as claiming branded feeds cause things like EMS - what do you seriously think is in them? Most mixes and/or cubes consist of the same basic raw ingredients that you would feed as straights!!! The difference is the feed company balances the vits/mins and adds extra vits and proteins to the feed so that you don't need anything additional - and adds a hefty price tag for the convenience. You sound like you think there's something magic in branded feeds that gives horses metabolic problems... which makes you sound like a conspiracy theorist I'll be honest.


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## PolarSkye (4 November 2013)

khalswitz said:



			Overfeeding and using branded feeds are not the same thing at all.
		
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Amen.

P


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## Tnavas (4 November 2013)

khalswitz said:



			As far as claiming branded feeds cause things like EMS - what do you seriously think is in them? Most mixes and/or cubes consist of the same basic raw ingredients that you would feed as straights!!! The difference is the feed company balances the vits/mins and adds extra vits and proteins to the feed so that you don't need anything additional - and adds a hefty price tag for the convenience. You sound like you think there's something magic in branded feeds that gives horses metabolic problems... which makes you sound like a conspiracy theorist I'll be honest.
		
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I suggest that you go and seriously read the labels on your horses feeds and also others

Soy for one thing - is highly poisonous until it  has been through several chemical processes to remove the toxins - your horse would not eat this naturally. Soy is also known very well to cause metabolic problems in humans and since its inclusion in composite feeds we've started to get metabolic problems in horses that never existed in the past.

Bran is one of the main ingredients of many composite feeds as it is cheap, bulks up the food and helps glue it together - Bran/Broll/Pollard/Mill Run is *WHEAT* and NO ONE in their right mind feeds wheat to horses, it overloads the kidneys - is fast energy and hypes the life out of horses. 

Peanut hulls? Peas and Beans? 

Straights are Oats, Barley, Linseed, Sunflower seeds, Chaff and Sugarbeet! Maize for racehorses. I've been feeding for over 40 years to 100's of horses and apart from feeding my current Broodmare a balancer have never fed composite feeds.

The high incidence of laminitis tells us very clearly that we are feeding badly! To date I have never had one of mine, either owned by me or in my care get laminitis. I've worked with horses at all levels, Riding School, Olympic level horses, TB yearlings, racehorses, pleasure horses and little fat ponies. While they are in my care not a scrap of processed feed passes their lips.

Supplements are given in the form of a mineral block in the paddock.

I remember what it was like before the processed feeds came into existence! And if you really believe that the feed companies research the feeds for our common or garden horses and ponies then you are sadly mistaken - they just adapt the feeds they researched for racehorses which is where the money lies.

Horse owners are suckers for advertising hype. For a horse that is failing to thrive on quality correctly proportioned straights I'd look for low grade pain issues. I had one who's neck was out and he wasn't happy grazing or feeding from the ground - several chiro treatments later and feeding from chest height I had a horse looking like a broodmare in foal on minimal food.

Here in NZ we currently have very minimal metabolic problems - because we are only in the first decade of highly processed horse feeds.


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## khalswitz (4 November 2013)

Tnavas said:



			I suggest that you go and seriously read the labels on your horses feeds and also others

Soy for one thing - is highly poisonous until it  has been through several chemical processes to remove the toxins - your horse would not eat this naturally. Soy is also known very well to cause metabolic problems in humans and since its inclusion in composite feeds we've started to get metabolic problems in horses that never existed in the past.

Bran is one of the main ingredients of many composite feeds as it is cheap, bulks up the food and helps glue it together - Bran/Broll/Pollard/Mill Run is *WHEAT* and NO ONE in their right mind feeds wheat to horses, it overloads the kidneys - is fast energy and hypes the life out of horses. 

Peanut hulls? Peas and Beans? 

Straights are Oats, Barley, Linseed, Sunflower seeds, Chaff and Sugarbeet! Maize for racehorses. I've been feeding for over 40 years to 100's of horses and apart from feeding my current Broodmare a balancer have never fed composite feeds.

The high incidence of laminitis tells us very clearly that we are feeding badly! To date I have never had one of mine, either owned by me or in my care get laminitis. I've worked with horses at all levels, Riding School, Olympic level horses, TB yearlings, racehorses, pleasure horses and little fat ponies. While they are in my care not a scrap of processed feed passes their lips.

Supplements are given in the form of a mineral block in the paddock.

I remember what it was like before the processed feeds came into existence! And if you really believe that the feed companies research the feeds for our common or garden horses and ponies then you are sadly mistaken - they just adapt the feeds they researched for racehorses which is where the money lies.

Horse owners are suckers for advertising hype. For a horse that is failing to thrive on quality correctly proportioned straights I'd look for low grade pain issues. I had one who's neck was out and he wasn't happy grazing or feeding from the ground - several chiro treatments later and feeding from chest height I had a horse looking like a broodmare in foal on minimal food.

Here in NZ we currently have very minimal metabolic problems - because we are only in the first decade of highly processed horse feeds.
		
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I can assure you I read the labels very carefully - being an equine nutrition student (studying my Masters at the Dick Vet) and having a horse with a problem that needs dietary management I read the labels!!

Bran has gone very out of fashion with certainly UK feed companies - not many use bran as a component any more, mostly due to the way it is milled these days and has next to no nutritional value. Certainly none of my feeds contain it. Also feeding bran is not the same as feeding wheat - in the old days, bran was the fibrous part of the husk of wheat, and was lower in starch and higher in fibre. Nowadays, it's mainly sawdust - certainly not high energy rocket fuel like pure wheat.

With regards to soy - arguing a horse wouldn't eat it naturally is stupid, a horse wouldn't eat oats, barley, linseed or maize 'naturally' so that isn't relevant. And with regards to soy protein, 'metabolic' effects have only been noted in the human industry in women who over-consume soy protein, and it affects hormonal levels. Soy protein is, as far as nutritionists know, the closest match to equine amino acid requirements that is viable for practical use in horses (see Amy King, PhD, of Lexington Kentucky, and Sarah Ralston of the Rutgers University Equine Science Center). Because horses have a totally different digestive system scientists believe the effects of soy aren't reproducible in horses as from humans - and certainly not in reasonable feed quantities.

Another concern regarding soy is the GM component, however UK feed companies are regulated in this so it's again a non-starter, thats a US problem. The two toxic enzymes in raw soybeans are urease and lipoxidase, both of which are destroyed on roasting the beans, which is standard process for soy protein manufacture. Horses can be allergic to soy, but they can also be allergic to barley...

Peanut hulls I'd agree with you on as being pointless in a feed, but I have never found this in any of the big brand processed feeds I've used. Peanut oil, yes, but never the hulls.

Peas I don't know why you have a problem with, they contain an average of 23% crude protein and a digestible energy content similar to barley. Nothing in them to worry about, it's just an alternative.

Saying that increased laminitis proves bad feeding is unfounded - you aren't accounting for the main part of the horse's diet - grass and hay. How can we know that changes in fertilisers, climate changes resulting in richer, sugarier forage, changes to soil composition resulting in unbalanced rations within forage aren't doing the same thing? It's speculative, not evidential.

I've never had one of mine get laminitis, yet my friend who feeds straights (and breeds her own stock before you query that too) has half a dozen laminitic prone ponies. In MY experience, that would prove the opposite. However I'm not arguing that, just that blaming processed feed is illogical and unfounded.

OVERFEEDING, yes, that could cause obesity which in turn could cause laminitis. Owners feeding more hard feed in general than 20 years ago? Sure, would make sense as an explanatory theory. But blaming processed feed doesn't.


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## Buddy'sMum (4 November 2013)

khalswitz said:



			Overfeeding and using branded feeds are not the same thing at all. Plenty of people use branded feeds and don't feed to manufacturers recommendations, and plenty of people find themselves struggling to keep condition with a branded feed let alone having overweight, ems/cushings horses on their hands.
		
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By 'overfeeding' I didn't just mean feeding too much on terms of quantity but feeding things the horse or pony doesn't need. And a quick look at the ingredients of most branded feeds tells me that my horses don't need half of what's in that feed!



khalswitz said:



			As far as claiming branded feeds cause things like EMS - what do you seriously think is in them? Most mixes and/or cubes consist of the same basic raw ingredients that you would feed as straights!!! The difference is the feed company balances the vits/mins and adds extra vits and proteins to the feed so that you don't need anything additional - and adds a hefty price tag for the convenience. You sound like you think there's something magic in branded feeds that gives horses metabolic problems... which makes you sound like a conspiracy theorist I'll be honest.
		
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 Well, I'm old enough to remember the days when feeding straights was the norm, before the mass use of branded feeds (not to mention supplements) and we just didn't have all these metabolic issues and a lami epidemic. So personally I absolutely believe there's a link.


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## Buddy'sMum (4 November 2013)

khalswitz said:



			Another concern regarding soy is the GM component, however UK feed companies are regulated in this so it's again a non-starter, thats a US problem.
		
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How so? Imported GM soy is allowed to be used in animal feeds in the UK. I know of a few horse feed companies who use GM soy.


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## Tnavas (4 November 2013)

khalswitz said:



			I can assure you I read the labels very carefully - being an equine nutrition student (studying my Masters at the Dick Vet) and having a horse with a problem that needs dietary management I read the labels!!

Bran has gone very out of fashion with certainly UK feed companies - not many use bran as a component any more, mostly due to the way it is milled these days and has next to no nutritional value. 

*I suggest that you do some reading otherwise you won't pass your exams! I googled a few popular feed companies - and guess what virtually all the products contained BRAN!* 
_Red Mills - Cool 'n' Cooked - Wheat Flakes (steam-cooked), Wheatfeed
Dengie Hi Fi Balancer - wheat
Dengie - Alfa A Balancer - wheat
Dodson & Horrell - don't let you know what their product contains
Baileys No 2 - Micronised Wheat
Baileys No 1 - Carefully micronised wheat
Virtually ALL the BAileys range contain Wheat_

Certainly none of my feeds contain it. Also feeding bran is not the same as feeding wheat - in the old days, bran was the fibrous part of the husk of wheat, and was lower in starch and higher in fibre. Nowadays, it's mainly sawdust - certainly not high energy rocket fuel like pure wheat. 

*I remember bran flakes being large and containing flour - it is used to bulk up the mass and make it stick together. We never fed wheat as an energy source but as a fibre source and even in the 60's it was well known to be a problem food No-one in their right mind feeds a horse wheat in any form - the flour it contains makes horses extrememly fizzy, and damages kidneys*


With regards to soy - arguing a horse wouldn't eat it naturally is stupid, a horse wouldn't eat oats, barley, linseed or maize 'naturally' so that isn't relevant. 

*Yes they would eat it oats and barley naturally - it's not toxic - if it were planted in their paddock they would chose it to eat* 

And with regards to soy protein, 'metabolic' effects have only been noted in the human industry in women who over-consume soy protein, and it affects hormonal levels. 

*You need to go and do some more research my dear! It is responsible for many problems
Have a visit to this site
http://www.rede-verde.org/index.php...-the-planet&catid=3:healthy-lifestyle&lang=en * 

Soy protein is, as far as nutritionists know, the closest match to equine amino acid requirements that is viable for practical use in horses (see Amy King, PhD, of Lexington Kentucky, and Sarah Ralston of the Rutgers University Equine Science Center). Because horses have a totally different digestive system scientists believe the effects of soy aren't reproducible in horses as from humans - and certainly not in reasonable feed quantities. 

*So explain the very high incidence of equine metabolic problems we are now facing? WHICH DID NOT EXIST 20 OR SO YEARS AGO, what has changed so much in a horses diet these days? Answer Commercially prepared foods! Recently Soy husks have made their way into the horses feed - here in NZ it is sold as Maxi Soy - it's cheap and was probably just dumped before the manufacturers found they could dump it on the horse owners. SOY products have become cheaper over the past decade when SOY consumption by humans reduced*

Another concern regarding soy is the GM component, however UK feed companies are regulated in this so it's again a non-starter, thats a US problem. The two toxic enzymes in raw soybeans are urease and lipoxidase, both of which are destroyed on roasting the beans, which is standard process for soy protein manufacture. Horses can be allergic to soy, but they can also be allergic to barley... 
*You think they are roasted? Try being treated with chemicals - Hexane or other volatile, petroleum-based solvents *

*GM doesn't really worry me - just means we use less pesticides WHICH DO AFFECT the food. Do you grow flowers in your garden? Most of them have been genetically modified by gardeners and bees for centuries!*

Peanut hulls I'd agree with you on as being pointless in a feed, but I have never found this in any of the big brand processed feeds I've used. Peanut oil, yes, but never the hulls.
*They are used as a form of a cheap bulking component - often found in American horse feeds*

Peas I don't know why you have a problem with, they contain an average of 23% crude protein and a digestible energy content similar to barley. Nothing in them to worry about, it's just an alternative. [* I don't have much of a problem with peas BUT the majority of horses don't require that level of protein - 8 - 10 % in a mature horse and along with the additioni of Lysine the available protein is increased. Excess just gets peed out!*

Saying that increased laminitis proves bad feeding is unfounded - you aren't accounting for the main part of the horse's diet - grass and hay. 
*The main cause of ANY laminitis is poor management - overfed and underworked*

How can we know that changes in fertilisers, climate changes resulting in richer, sugarier forage, changes to soil composition resulting in unbalanced rations within forage aren't doing the same thing? It's speculative, not evidential. 

*I currently live in New Zealand - pasture is mainly Rye Grass and Clover, often well fertilised with a prolonged spring growth - you can see the stuff growing and the majority of our horses live out - AND we don't have a high incidence of laminitis, ocaissionly in ponies but rarely in horses*

I've never had one of mine get laminitis, yet my friend who feeds straights (and breeds her own stock before you query that too) has half a dozen laminitic prone ponies. 
*She obviously overfeeds them!*

In MY experience, that would prove the opposite. However I'm not arguing that, just that blaming processed feed is illogical and unfounded.
*No it's not - its the result of KNOWING what horses were like before processed feeds were available and what I see happening now. When I was a child ponies were rarely ever fed anything - now I listen to my Pony Club kids tell me what they are feeding and it's horrific. *

OVERFEEDING, yes, that could cause obesity which in turn could cause laminitis. *Not could but DOES often cause laminitis*

Owners feeding more hard feed in general than 20 years ago? Sure, would make sense as an explanatory theory. But blaming processed feed doesn't.

*Really?!!! - but what are people feeding but processed feeds and I've explained to you that in the 40+ years I have owned/worked with and fed 100's of horses and ponies STRAIGHTS that I have NEVER had a case of laminitis or Insulin resistance - and I am talking yards with over 100 horses/ponies living in them*

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Start researching more in depth and question what you are being taught!


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## cptrayes (4 November 2013)

The explosion in laminitis and IR in the UK is easily explained by two things, neither of which directly concern commercial feeds.

1. People are feeding too much of all kinds of food and exercising less than we used to.

2. Farmers with rich ryegrass grazing for dairy cows were given financial incentives to convert to livery yards. That grazing is like poison to a lot of horses.


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## Tnavas (4 November 2013)

cptrayes said:



			The explosion in laminitis and IR in the UK is easily explained by two things, neither of which directly concern commercial feeds.

1. People are feeding too much of all kinds of food and exercising less than we used to.

2. Farmers with rich ryegrass grazing for dairy cows were given financial incentives to convert to livery yards. That grazing is like poison to a lot of horses.
		
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We keep the majority of NZ horses on dairy rich grass - rye grass and clover are still the main seed mix. Some people are now sowing for horses alone but we don't have too much of a problem. Just at this time of year with Grass Tetany which is dealt with easily by supplementing with magnesium.

My school grazing was rye grass and clover, fertilised twice a year and irrigated throughout summer - Everyone bar a few of the fatties lived on the main grazing - the fatties lived in the arena paddocks with the grass kept short so that they could eat adlib but get only small amounts of food.

My current grazing cross grazes with beef cattle, its fertilised regularly - we have no problem!

Overfeeding and under exercising is the biggest problem - and the commercial feeds are to blame for the over feeding - horse and pony owners are made to feel that they HAVE to feed their equines. 

More people feed hard feed than used to!


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## doriangrey (4 November 2013)

Tnavas said:



			We keep the majority of NZ horses on dairy rich grass - rye grass and clover are still the main seed mix. Some people are now sowing for horses alone but we don't have too much of a problem. Just at this time of year with Grass Tetany which is dealt with easily by supplementing with magnesium.

My school grazing was rye grass and clover, fertilised twice a year and irrigated throughout summer - Everyone bar a few of the fatties lived on the main grazing - the fatties lived in the arena paddocks with the grass kept short so that they could eat adlib but get only small amounts of food.

My current grazing cross grazes with beef cattle, its fertilised regularly - we have no problem!

Overfeeding and under exercising is the biggest problem - and the commercial feeds are to blame for the over feeding - horse and pony owners are made to feel that they HAVE to feed their equines. 

More people feed hard feed than used to!
		
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I have to say you make a very compelling argument.  This might not be relevant, but I keep hens (horses too!), and I refuse to feed layers pellets.  Just looking at the ingredients on the bag puts me off and yet my hens pop eggs out like mad, yet I have been told that for maximum egg production you must feed layers pellets - I know personally that's nonsense.  I don't know what the answer is but I kind of see where you are coming from.  Nowadays it's like convenience food for everything - even kids.  I don't have working horses at the moment (just a retiree and a youngster) and I do understand that every animal is different but every other thread seems to be about colic/laminitis/ulcers - I feel so sorry for any horse/horse owner that goes through this, it's absolutely heart breaking reading about it especially as people want to do the very best by their horses.  It does seem that these conditions have increased with the introduction of commercial feeds but I don't know enough to make a proper argument.  Both of mine have mostly forage (including locally grown haylage), beet pulp, whole linseed, oil and salt (I stopped buying a balancer).  They occasionally get carrots and while we had a surfeit of apples they would get a few.


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## khalswitz (4 November 2013)

Buddy'sMum said:



			How so? Imported GM soy is allowed to be used in animal feeds in the UK. I know of a few horse feed companies who use GM soy.
		
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 Yes, it is *allowed* to be used, but manufacturer rules make it easy to know which is which and to select non-GM feeds in the UK. There is tight regulation on companies claiming under BETA rules NOT to use GM products, so any company telling you their feeds are GM-free is under very strict rules. Therefore it is really easy to choose non-GM in the UK, compared to the States - sorry, that was my point, rather than that it isn't used.

Tnavas, I'm sorry but you are showing some ignorance there. 

Firstly, as I told you already but you glossed over, BRAN and WHEAT are two different things. BRAN is a byproduct of the milling process turning whole wheat into flour, and in the 'old days' it was very fibrous, high phosphorus but relatively low in starch. The modern milling process has improved and now there is very little nutritional value to bran. HOWEVER it is not the same as feeding WHEAT - wheat is a cereal, bran is a by-product. 

WHEAT FEED is also not the same as feeding WHOLE WHEAT. It is another by-product of milling, but is NOT the same as BRAN either. Wheatfeed is the main by-product of flour production (another fallacy you've stated is that wheat is 'flour-y' - whole wheat isn't, as it's a process that turns wheat to flour, and secondly wheat feed or bran won't be, as they are the byproducts of flour production!! they can be powdery, but certainly won;t have flour in - it's too expensive!). It does NOT have the energy levels of whole wheat. Most companies use wheat feed as a binder, however VERY few will actually feed whole wheat for the reasons you stated. Certainly no 'cereal-free' feeds can contain whole wheat as that is part of the regulation.

With regards to soy, you're article has loads of holes. Firstly it refers to actual soy, which is never really used in horse feeds - soy hulls (the main source of soy protein in horses) and soya oil are totally different, as is soybean meal (same story as BRAN and WHEAT - we have different products here). IThen the article goes on about phytates without counting that soy, once roasted, destroys these (most soy hulls come from roasting process). The only point it makes that references a semi-decent study rather than anecdotal evidence is that regarding female hormonal influences, and the article itself states ONLY WHEN EXCESS AMOUNTS ARE EATEN. And your whole article is about humans - and as I stated, the equine nutrition world looks very differently on soy due to the reasons I earlier stated regarding protein amino acid balances. Human digestion and equine digestion are not the same, and some of the digestive problems associated with high soy diets in humans are JUST NOT APPLICABLE in horses. So instead of accusing me of not doing my research (and I have covered the topic of soy in horses extensively already) then please do yours - there is a vast difference between soy in human diet and equine, and there are NO SCIENTIFICALLY ACCEPTED STUDIES THAT SHOW SOY TO BE PROBLEMATIC IN HORSES. in fact, there has been some great studies that show soy hulls increases cecal fermentation without upsetting pHs, which can increase the energy horses can extract from their forage, and for reduction of hind gut acidosis. http://www.ans.iastate.edu/report/air/2004pdf/AS1931.pdf

And I'm obviously banging my head on a brick wall here but it is ridiculously biased and naive to assume that correlation equals causality - just because I get up in the morning doesn't mean the sun comes up, even though it happens every day without fail. You cannot legitimately claim an increase in metabolic disorder is due to a  rise in commercial feeds - it could be due to any huge change in the equine industry, change in climate, change in quality of hay etc. Like I said it's far more likely to be due to overfeeding rather than use of processed foods, which I stand by that the two are not mutually inclusive, and which you admit yourself!

"The main cause of ANY laminitis is poor management - overfed and underworked". YES. OVERFED AND UNDERWORKED. There are two parts to this - excess calories, and too little exercise. NEITHER are directly related to and entirely inclusive of processed feeds. You are completely right - THIS is the problem of our generation - not the evil feed companies.

And yes, my friend probably does overfeed her horses. But my point is that she feeds straights, and still does;t get it right - I feed commercial pellets, and I do. So processed feeds aren't the evil here, it's lack of education about nutrition and our animal's requirements. And I'm sure you've had a great success record - but you have actually looked into what you are feeding and why. I'd say it's not necessarily because you feed straights, but because you are feeding your horses correctly for their workload and condition. I've never, and I know plenty of people who have never had a problem feeding processed, branded feeds - but then again I think it comes down to education about what your are feeding, how much you are feeding and why, rather than whether you feed straights or mixes/cubes!

cptrayes, your point "Farmers with rich ryegrass grazing for dairy cows were given financial incentives to convert to livery yards. That grazing is like poison to a lot of horses." is spot on - and possibly why Tnavas has never had a problem in New Zealand and yet we do over here?

ETA - Just read Tnavas' reponse, never mind my last point.


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## cptrayes (4 November 2013)

I don't accept the 'commercial feed manufacturers are to blame for fat horses' argument any more than I accept that MacDonald's are responsible for fat humans.


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## Flyermc (4 November 2013)

I do (to a degree) believe that manufacturers are to blame. They spend a whole heap of money advertising to promote there products, sponsor classes based on the products that they sell and happen to have a supplement aimed for every minor element that i horse might get.

Its very clever marketing, its aimed at horse lovers who just want the very best for there horse.

I remember going to a lami talk, that had been put together by our vets, one thing that stood out, was the following comment made by the vet 'never look at the field/grazing, always look at your horse' i find this so true!! i used to walk our field and think 'there's no grass' and give my horses a bucket feed. I used to feel sorry for them, they'd stand at the gate (in the deepest mud) when really there was (and always has been) more than enough grass! Neither where thin (far from it) and they had plenty of energy, i was looking at completely the wrong thing. They were standing at the gate, because they chose to, no-one was forcing them to.

Over the last 2 years ive completely changed the way i feed, i now ignore fancy adverts that claim X Y and Z and think for myself. I dont have a race horse but if you saw what i used to feed you'd think i did!! completely barking and i do believe it down to clever advertising!!

Ive just done my 2nd hunt with my pony who had far to much energy!!!


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## MotherOfChickens (4 November 2013)

Tnavas said:



			It does all boil down to the fact that people feed their horses far more than we used to. I remember as a child/teenager my pony rarely ever had hard feed - I rode and competed off grass alone.
		
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quite-some of us still do/would. personally, IMHO it's also due to feeding adlib hay/haylege in the field and stable (ad-lib doesn't have to mean 'stuffing gob with huge mouthfuls at all times') and rugging of types that were never rugged before (unclipped Natives) or of those not in hard work in weatherproof duvets.


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## khalswitz (4 November 2013)

Flyermc said:



			I do (to a degree) believe that manufacturers are to blame. They spend a whole heap of money advertising to promote there products, sponsor classes based on the products that they sell and happen to have a supplement aimed for every minor element that i horse might get.

Its very clever marketing, its aimed at horse lovers who just want the very best for there horse.

I remember going to a lami talk, that had been put together by our vets, one thing that stood out, was the following comment made by the vet 'never look at the field/grazing, always look at your horse' i find this so true!! i used to walk our field and think 'there's no grass' and give my horses a bucket feed. I used to feel sorry for them, they'd stand at the gate (in the deepest mud) when really there was (and always has been) more than enough grass! Neither where thin (far from it) and they had plenty of energy, i was looking at completely the wrong thing. They were standing at the gate, because they chose to, no-one was forcing them to.

Over the last 2 years ive completely changed the way i feed, i now ignore fancy adverts that claim X Y and Z and think for myself. I dont have a race horse but if you saw what i used to feed you'd think i did!! completely barking and i do believe it down to clever advertising!!

Ive just done my 2nd hunt with my pony who had far to much energy!!!
		
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Just to point out, supplements and feeds come under very different sets of regulations. Feeds have to have evidence behind what is in them to make claims under BETA rules, however supplement companies don't, and can claim whatever they like. I would agree about over supplementation as a mentality...


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## Tnavas (4 November 2013)

cptrayes said:



			I don't accept the 'commercial feed manufacturers are to blame for fat horses' argument any more than I accept that MacDonald's are responsible for fat humans.
		
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PEER PRESSURE! Commercial pressure - Humans overfeed their horses because the feed manufacturers tell them they need to feed Dobbin this amount because he is 14.2hh - they fail to remember all those rule of feeding that were drummed into us at Pony Club!

Every horse/pony is different and this is where the problem lies. 


khalswitz - Historically wheat as a cereal has not been fed to horses because of the way it can fizz a horse up. 

Bran - the bi product of milling wheat ( see I do know the difference) caused major problems at one time because it was overfed and at that time it also contained a lot of the flour still. (I actually remember that when you put your hand in the sack of flour it came out white) It's high phosphorous levels caused a lot of problems generally resulting in the affliction Millars Head. A couple of years ago a young acquaintance went on about how wonderful bran was and was feeding it to her horse - I warned her of its problem and she poo pooed it! Then her horse cracked its pedal bone! Weakened by the reduced levels of Calcium the blood had pulled from the bones. Fortunately he's recovered but several people, herself included now know that bran is not good for horses.

My objection to Wheat being added to horse feeds is that it is known by the oldies to excite horses worse than any other grain.

Some of the commercial companies tell the poor buyer that their feeds don't contain oats! So they won't wind  up your horse, instead they have barley - higher carbs than oats, wheat - higher carbs than oats, maize - higher carbs than oats.

I've now got quite a few of my Pony Club kids feeding oats rather than commercial foods, they are all reporting that their ponies have energy but are better behaved.

As far as SOY and horses go - maybe we'll have to wait for a few more years before the scientists discover that they were wrong! We've seen the addition of Soy to feeds for only about 20 years or so in UK and only the last decade here in NZ. 

It's taken many decades of feeding Soy to humans to finally realise it's not the wonder food they initially thought it was. 

I will still do my best to wise people up to what is in their horses commercially prepared feed and encourage them to feed a high fibre diet - their horses are healthier, less prone to ulcers and saner!

I do my best to encourage my younger Pony Club members to not hard feed their ponies at all - the majority of them don't work them enough for them to require hard feeding.

A study - a long term one (20 years or so, starting from birth) needs to be done on the effects of commercially prepared foods on the equine compared with those that are only ever fed straights. The study needs to cover the many different breeds and temperaments too. 

When you see a high level of problems caused by diet you have to look at all the factors that have changed.

Commercial foods
Overfeeding
Insufficient work


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## SO1 (4 November 2013)

I only use about 2 bags of feed a year as I have a good doer pony living out on good grazing so he only gets a handful of feed plus magnesium and a herbal supplement.

I have choosen Lmix by Allen and Page as this was the lowest in starch and sugar I could find and is mollasses free. The problem with the non branded feeds is that it is not very easy to find out what the sugar and starch and DE are for them.


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## khalswitz (4 November 2013)

Tnavas said:



			PEER PRESSURE! Commercial pressure - Humans overfeed their horses because the feed manufacturers tell them they need to feed Dobbin this amount because he is 14.2hh - they fail to remember all those rule of feeding that were drummed into us at Pony Club!

Every horse/pony is different and this is where the problem lies. 


khalswitz - Historically wheat as a cereal has not been fed to horses because of the way it can fizz a horse up. 

Bran - the bi product of milling wheat ( see I do know the difference) caused major problems at one time because it was overfed and at that time it also contained a lot of the flour still. (I actually remember that when you put your hand in the sack of flour it came out white) It's high phosphorous levels caused a lot of problems generally resulting in the affliction Millars Head. A couple of years ago a young acquaintance went on about how wonderful bran was and was feeding it to her horse - I warned her of its problem and she poo pooed it! Then her horse cracked its pedal bone! Weakened by the reduced levels of Calcium the blood had pulled from the bones. Fortunately he's recovered but several people, herself included now know that bran is not good for horses.

My objection to Wheat being added to horse feeds is that it is known by the oldies to excite horses worse than any other grain.

Some of the commercial companies tell the poor buyer that their feeds don't contain oats! So they won't wind  up your horse, instead they have barley - higher carbs than oats, wheat - higher carbs than oats, maize - higher carbs than oats.

I've now got quite a few of my Pony Club kids feeding oats rather than commercial foods, they are all reporting that their ponies have energy but are better behaved.

As far as SOY and horses go - maybe we'll have to wait for a few more years before the scientists discover that they were wrong! We've seen the addition of Soy to feeds for only about 20 years or so in UK and only the last decade here in NZ. 

It's taken many decades of feeding Soy to humans to finally realise it's not the wonder food they initially thought it was. 

I will still do my best to wise people up to what is in their horses commercially prepared feed and encourage them to feed a high fibre diet - their horses are healthier, less prone to ulcers and saner!

I do my best to encourage my younger Pony Club members to not hard feed their ponies at all - the majority of them don't work them enough for them to require hard feeding.

A study - a long term one (20 years or so, starting from birth) needs to be done on the effects of commercially prepared foods on the equine compared with those that are only ever fed straights. The study needs to cover the many different breeds and temperaments too. 

When you see a high level of problems caused by diet you have to look at all the factors that have changed.

Commercial foods
Overfeeding
Insufficient work
		
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Just one last point, and really not dying to be picky here I promise! But not all commercial feeds are exclusive of a high fibre, low starch and sugar diet. More feed companies are slowly coming around to this - Dengie for one, Winergy Equilibrium range another, A&P making a stab at it with their Barley and Molasses Free range... I personally feed Alfa-A Oil (no cereals or molasses), Alfa-Beet and D&H ERS Pellets (high oil and fibre for horses with ERS/EPSM/Tying-up), and have a high energy, low starch & sugar, cereal-free diet for my EPSM horse. 

So just because it is a commercial feed doesn't automatically make it high cereal and high sugar. However I agree that if horses and ponies don't need feed (and most in light work don't), then we shouldn't be feeding them anything more than some type of vit/min supp - whether in lick form/powder with a little chaff/ balancer.

Good on you for catching your Pony Clubbers early and educating them about feeding. That's the age to teach them!! And I'd agree I'd rather use oats than barley/peas/wheat/maize - and used to with my previous horses, unfortunately current one can't have them .


ETA:


Tnavas said:



			When you see a high level of problems caused by diet you have to look at all the factors that have changed.

Commercial foods
Overfeeding
Insufficient work
		
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I agree completely. That is a much more balanced way of looking at it. And horse feeds becoming more popular, having more brand association, advertising, feed-related nutritionists all these things can affect what people choose to feed, and whilst there is nothing inherently wrong with using a branded feed, it is too easy for people to think they need a feed these days when this isn't the case.


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## Flyermc (4 November 2013)

Tnavas said:



			PEER PRESSURE! Commercial pressure - Humans overfeed their horses because the feed manufacturers tell them they need to feed Dobbin this amount because he is 14.2hh - they fail to remember all those rule of feeding that were drummed into us at Pony Club!

This is what i mean, i feed cheapo white bag rolled oats. They look like crushed oats and smell like oats, however i keep looking at tiger oats and thinking 'oh they might be better quality' however they are twice the price (not a problem, my pony means the world to me) however, this is were i used to get 'stuck' does my horse actually need better quality oats? (no) does he look great the way he is? (yes) is he lacking energy? (no) so why to i still feel like i should be feeding the branded ones? 

Ive even read this tread, thinking 'oh i bet Flyer would like some speedibeet' but does he need sugarbeet adding to his diet? (no) so again, why am i feeling like a bad owner for not giving my boy huge feeds that he doesnt need? its barmy
		
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## Tnavas (4 November 2013)

SO1 said:



			I only use about 2 bags of feed a year as I have a good doer pony living out on good grazing so he only gets a handful of feed plus magnesium and a herbal supplement.

I have choosen Lmix by Allen and Page as this was the lowest in starch and sugar I could find and is mollasses free. The problem with the non branded feeds is that it is not very easy to find out what the sugar and starch and DE are for them.
		
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Maybe save yourself some money and just buy a multi mineral block - I don't feed any of mine more than a mineral block and they are as healthy as - I've not had to call in the vet for over 20 years!


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## Tnavas (4 November 2013)

Flyermc said:





Tnavas said:



			PEER PRESSURE! Commercial pressure - Humans overfeed their horses because the feed manufacturers tell them they need to feed Dobbin this amount because he is 14.2hh - they fail to remember all those rule of feeding that were drummed into us at Pony Club!

This is what i mean, i feed cheapo white bag rolled oats. They look like crushed oats and smell like oats, however i keep looking at tiger oats and thinking 'oh they might be better quality' however they are twice the price (not a problem, my pony means the world to me) however, this is were i used to get 'stuck' does my horse actually need better quality oats? (no) does he look great the way he is? (yes) is he lacking energy? (no) so why to i still feel like i should be feeding the branded ones? 

Ive even read this tread, thinking 'oh i bet Flyer would like some speedibeet' but does he need sugarbeet adding to his diet? (no) so again, why am i feeling like a bad owner for not giving my boy huge feeds that he doesnt need? its barmy
		
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Tiger Oats are yet another 'Brand' a mixture of Black and White oats and my understanding is that the nutritive value of them is much the same. Tiger Oats have just been played with and other stuff added. Yet another marketing ploy.

It's great to hear that you are back to basics with your Flyer. He will be a happy horse and you'll have more money in your pocket as a result.
		
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## Buddy'sMum (4 November 2013)

Flyermc said:





Tnavas said:



			PEER PRESSURE! Commercial pressure - Humans overfeed their horses because the feed manufacturers tell them they need to feed Dobbin this amount because he is 14.2hh - they fail to remember all those rule of feeding that were drummed into us at Pony Club!
		
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Yup, totally agree. And how many owners these days start at Pony Club and get that basic training? Not so many, so where does everyone else get their info from? From all those lovely ads in horsey mags and the feed manufacturers who know perfectly well that very few leisure ponies and horses need any hard feed but still they recommend twice daily bucket loads of pasture mix for the fat lead rein pony who gets ridden once in a blue moon!



Flyermc said:



			Ive even read this tread, thinking 'oh i bet Flyer would like some speedibeet' but does he need sugarbeet adding to his diet? (no) so again, why am i feeling like a bad owner for not giving my boy huge feeds that he doesnt need? its barmy
		
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Heh heh, I did the same when I saw cherry flavoured chaff in my feedstore recently, had to take a deep breath and count to 10..!
		
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## cptrayes (4 November 2013)

If the market was suddenly stripped back to the early eighties, with only nuts, oats, barley, bran sugar beet and flaked maize available as horse food, then I believe we would still have fat horses, because people like to feed their animals and they like to see them fat.

If you are talking about peer pressure, then In my opinion, modern showing has more to answer for overweight horses than the feed manufacturers pushing food onto owners.


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## Tnavas (4 November 2013)

cptrayes said:



			If the market was suddenly stripped back to the early eighties, with only nuts, oats, barley, bran sugar beet and flaked maize available as horse food, then I believe we would still have fat horses, because people like to feed their animals and they like to see them fat.

If you are talking about peer pressure, then In my opinion, modern showing has more to answer for overweight horses than the feed manufacturers pushing food onto owners.
		
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Fat show ponies has been debated for many decades - it was discussed constantly when I was in the show ring in the late 60's to when I came to NZ in the late 80's - it's a major topic of discussion here too. 

Marketing of commercial foods, all the advertising in magazines traps people into thinking that to feed hard feed is the norm whereas it used to be done only if the horse was in hard work.

Though I generally won the Best Condition and Turnout classes, one judge - a vet remarked on the fitness of my pony! No hard feed, just quality work off grass.


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## Tnavas (4 November 2013)

Lets remember those rules of feeding

1  *Feed according to Condition, Work and Temperament* - the most important!

2 Feed only Good quality foodstuffs

3  *Feed sufficient Fibre* preferably fibre should make up 75% of every hard feed, never less than 50%

4 Feed Little and Often - stomach the size of a rugby ball

5  Make No sudden changes

6  Feed at the Same time each day

7 Feed something Succulent every day - important if horse is on restricted grass or is stabled

8  Do not work after a full feed however to reduce problems with ulcers feed a double handful of damped chaff or Haylage 30 mins prior to work - stops the acid splashing around

9  Water freely available at all times - if not possible water before feeding

10 Keep water & feed utensils clean

11  Know the weight of the volume of food in the scoop you usually use or Weigh all feed.


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## Exploding Chestnuts (5 November 2013)

Buddy'sMum said:



			^^this^^
with a bit of molassed (horrors!) sugar beet in winter, maybe some oats if pony was working really hard.
None of the ponies on my old riding school/yard ever had lami and they were all out eating the green stuff every day.
		
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The riding school I started out on in 1950/60, had one forty acre field for about seven hard working riding school seven horses [they did six hours on a Saturday], and they were all stalled in winter , New Zealand rugs were unknown until the 70's.
They all got fed oats, bran and chaff [homemade with chopped hay and oat straw] every day with molasses in winter. Horse nuts were considered to be pretty exotic!

In Ye Olden Days, the grass they were on was more likely to be old permanent pasture with herbs and hedges....  proper farming with mixed grazing, sheep and maybe cattle.

Nowadays a lot of farmers have sold off their cattle who were grazing on ryegrass leys, pretty much a monoculture, the idea being to produce milk or fatten stock. This type of grass is not particularly suitable for horses: the horse evolved on prairies and steppes where they roamed wild, browsing as they went. Their basic digestive system has not evolved to cope with the sort of thing ruminants like, cows can eat up lots of bulk, then they lie down and it burbles about in their stomachs till all the energy has entered the bloodstream.


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## Exploding Chestnuts (5 November 2013)

cptrayes said:



			I will be using oil once we really get going. Supermarket rapeseed oil, added to his cubes.

You don't seem to understand mrsd, that I AM feeding unmolassed beet in spring and summer. The only difference is that I am prepared to soak it in masses more water than it needs and drain it before feeding. I do that because it costs one third of what it costs to buy the only unmolassed beet my supplier will stock.

Of course cubes can be more energy dense per kilo than straight oats. It depends a lot on the level of fibre and water.
		
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Round here we pay £8.50 for molassed nuts and £12.50 for quick beet. I still think my method is quick, and also foolproof if anyone else is feeding.


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## Exploding Chestnuts (5 November 2013)

Agree with all this, one poster [maybe another thread] seemed to consider the time taken to eat up would be too long for a large horse..... but I sort of think that this is not relevant for most people. Though this horse was usually out 24/7.
I feed and leave them to it, in fact I don't want them gobbling  up, as  mastication is an important part of the digestive process, and if they are fed breakfast at 7.00 am, they will be ok for an hour or so without hay.
The other point is that large horses have larger eating apparatus than e.g. show ponies, so I assume all horses would take approximately the same time to eat up their dinner. Given that there will be individual variation.


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## cptrayes (5 November 2013)

That was me MrsD. I can't feed and leave them to it, I have two horses who live together but have vastly different energy needs and must be fed apart then put back with each other when they have finished.

If I was to feed oats, as I have tried to do, the volume is so huge that I would have to feed three times. 

I can avoid doing that by feeding cubes and my horse does well on them.

My experience is that there are vast differences between how fast one horse and another eat, and this horse is one of the slowest on the planet 

Cubes suit us both very well, and I am lucky to have a Farm Supplies shop selling own brand cubes which seem to me to be of a very high standard, made locally by a fairly big name in horse nutrition, so I gain all ways round


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## Stacy_W (9 November 2013)

cptrayes said:



			What problem does your pony have that makes 14% protein an issue?

I ask because there used to be a widely believed myth that high protein caused laminitis and if you've been told that, he may be safe with grass nuts after all??
		
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My pony can't have high protein because of liver issues, so has to have less than 10% in anything I feed her, ideally.  Perhaps this is the same problem for this poster?  Too much protein can be a problem for horses with certain ailments.


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## Tnavas (9 November 2013)

Stacy_W said:



			My pony can't have high protein because of liver issues, so has to have less than 10% in anything I feed her, ideally.  Perhaps this is the same problem for this poster?  Too much protein can be a problem for horses with certain ailments.
		
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NO HORSE OR PONY needs more than 8 - 10% Protein in its diet UNLESS it is a young growing equine, a broodmare in foal (even then high protein levels can cause the placenta to be too tough for the foal to break through at birth) or a racehorse/advanced eventer in training or competition.

Anything higher is wasted, puts a strain on the horses kidneys and is a total waste of money.

All these feeds with so high levels of protein are crazy especially when Lysine is added as this makes so much of the protein available to the horse.


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## TPO (9 November 2013)

Not read all the replies but I think people feed branded feeds because...

1- they trust brands and it removes all responsibility from them. If labels/ adverts claim that it does x, y & z then they are good owners for buying it and they don't have to look into it any further. I've NEVER seen a set of scales in a feed room apart from mine and never seen anyone feed the recommended amount (or even read the feeding guidelines let alone ingredients)

2- good marketing on behalf of feed companies. Basically tapping into the food= love mentality so guilting owners into feeding. Heck, there's even feeds aimed at fat horses?! Ironically while I see horses over/incorrectly fed with bucket feeds same horses don't get adlib forage.

3- People don't know how to feed, equine dietary requirements or even the basic golden rules of feeding. Not just feeding, but in general, there seems to be a decline in knowledge before/ during owning horses. It's too easy to be ignorant.


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## khalswitz (10 November 2013)

TPO said:



			Not read all the replies but I think people feed branded feeds because...

1- they trust brands and it removes all responsibility from them. If labels/ adverts claim that it does x, y & z then they are good owners for buying it and they don't have to look into it any further. I've NEVER seen a set of scales in a feed room apart from mine and never seen anyone feed the recommended amount (or even read the feeding guidelines let alone ingredients)

2- good marketing on behalf of feed companies. Basically tapping into the food= love mentality so guilting owners into feeding. Heck, there's even feeds aimed at fat horses?! Ironically while I see horses over/incorrectly fed with bucket feeds same horses don't get adlib forage.

3- People don't know how to feed, equine dietary requirements or even the basic golden rules of feeding. Not just feeding, but in general, there seems to be a decline in knowledge before/ during owning horses. It's too easy to be ignorant.
		
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Very, very assumptive and generalised. Like I've stated several times in my posts, straights DON'T work for my horse. He can't have any cereals due to EPSM so oats/barley are out, and won't eat a big enough volume of beet to meet his requirements, won't touch linseed or when I add oil to the feed... What do you expect me to feed him? With a branded feed I can get low sugar/starch, high fibre, high oil, in a pellet form which Geoff will actually eat and will provide him with enough energy to event/do endurance.

Therefore saying that feeding branded feeds is laziness/ignorance, and means you don't weight your feed etc is a sign of ignorance in my opinion! Plenty of people use branded feeds who do a hell of a lot of research into what they are feeding, the ingredients and the effects on the animal.

I read the labels so much, and research online what it doesn't say on the labels, to the point where I've had salesmen at the shows put their hands up and say I'm better speaking to their nutritionist because I know more about the feed ingredients and my requirements compared to that than they do!!

WRT the protein issue in feeds, I had an interesting discussion with a nutritionist the other day about this. My feeling was that protein levels in balancers are high, however she told em that you have to bear in mind the WHOLE diet. Say you're aiming for 10% protein max, a 25% protein balancer seems crazy, but if the horse gets no other hard feed but a straw-based chaff say, and then they live on grass and hay, where the protein levels are low, the weight of balancer versus the weight of forage means the % protein averages out at around 8-10% or so. If you were feeding kilos rather than grams of balancer it would be a different story. My lad is on a stud balancer with higher than normal protein levels, as due to his EPSM he requires higher protein levels to maintain his muscular health (his muscles atrophy very quickly when any amount of starch/sugar is in his diet, or when the protein levels drop - I have to be quick to up my balancer in the winter when on hay). So I feed him slightly higher amount of protein than average, along with extra Vitamin E etc to aid with muscle health.


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## TPO (10 November 2013)

khalswitz said:



			Very, very assumptive and generalised. Like I've stated several times in my posts, straights DON'T work for my horse. He can't have any cereals due to EPSM so oats/barley are out, and won't eat a big enough volume of beet to meet his requirements, won't touch linseed or when I add oil to the feed... What do you expect me to feed him? With a branded feed I can get low sugar/starch, high fibre, high oil, in a pellet form which Geoff will actually eat and will provide him with enough energy to event/do endurance.

Therefore saying that feeding branded feeds is laziness/ignorance, and means you don't weight your feed etc is a sign of ignorance in my opinion! Plenty of people use branded feeds who do a hell of a lot of research into what they are feeding, the ingredients and the effects on the animal.

I read the labels so much, and research online what it doesn't say on the labels, to the point where I've had salesmen at the shows put their hands up and say I'm better speaking to their nutritionist because I know more about the feed ingredients and my requirements compared to that than they do!!

WRT the protein issue in feeds, I had an interesting discussion with a nutritionist the other day about this. My feeling was that protein levels in balancers are high, however she told em that you have to bear in mind the WHOLE diet. Say you're aiming for 10% protein max, a 25% protein balancer seems crazy, but if the horse gets no other hard feed but a straw-based chaff say, and then they live on grass and hay, where the protein levels are low, the weight of balancer versus the weight of forage means the % protein averages out at around 8-10% or so. If you were feeding kilos rather than grams of balancer it would be a different story. My lad is on a stud balancer with higher than normal protein levels, as due to his EPSM he requires higher protein levels to maintain his muscular health (his muscles atrophy very quickly when any amount of starch/sugar is in his diet, or when the protein levels drop - I have to be quick to up my balancer in the winter when on hay). So I feed him slightly higher amount of protein than average, along with extra Vitamin E etc to aid with muscle health.
		
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If you read my first sentence I said I'd not read all replies so clearly was not aimed at you or anyone else.

It was a a general reply to a general question.

Of course there are people who read, investigate and question but by and large that's the minority. You're not alone in asking questions that the companies themselves can't answer. 

However I'd still say you, and owners like you, are sadly the minority. A straw poll on most yards and you'd struggle to find owners who know the ingredients in what they are feeding and feed on the basis that the label is conditioning/comp/good doer and they trust brands to deliver. So ' trusting' the brand absolves responsibility and, as you'll know, is far easier than putting the work in yourself.


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## khalswitz (10 November 2013)

TPO said:



			If you read my first sentence I said I'd not read all replies so clearly was not aimed at you or anyone else.

It was a a general reply to a general question.
		
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Sorry I missed that part - obviously got carried away with the rest of your post!!

I do agree about trust and people over-trusting the feed companies, but I think in general I would trusted a branded feed more than say, a white bag cube where you really have very little to rely on.


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## Tnavas (10 November 2013)

khalwitz - grass does h ave the required protein levels for an average horse - yet again the 'Sales pitch' to force people into buying their products - you rarely need a protein balancer for the majority of horses - they do get the protein they need from the grass, hay and basic feeds that they get.

An interesting read about the effect of CO2 on the Protein levels of grass.

http://www.cattlenetwork.com/blogs/...ned-a-lot-about-grass-213203671.html?view=all

and this

http://www.mobilefarmapps.com/articles/grazing-and-grass-quality.html

and this - the norm for Protein levels
http://horsetalk.co.nz/2013/10/03/timothy-hay-horses-friend/#axzz2kGX1mQG8


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## khalswitz (10 November 2013)

Tnavas said:



			khalwitz - grass does h ave the required protein levels for an average horse - yet again the 'Sales pitch' to force people into buying their products - you rarely need a protein balancer for the majority of horses - they do get the protein they need from the grass, hay and basic feeds that they get.

An interesting read about the effect of CO2 on the Protein levels of grass.

http://www.cattlenetwork.com/blogs/...ned-a-lot-about-grass-213203671.html?view=all

and this

http://www.mobilefarmapps.com/articles/grazing-and-grass-quality.html

and this - the norm for Protein levels
http://horsetalk.co.nz/2013/10/03/timothy-hay-horses-friend/#axzz2kGX1mQG8

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Your links are interesting, but only show protein levels for alfalfa (which is known to be high as a legume rather than a grass), and timothy (which is significantly lower than alfalfa, and is considered high compared to your rye grasses etc), neither of which are the 'normal' hay or grass types in the UK, obviously I don't know about NZ.

Like your article says, protein is LOWER in grasses now than it ever was before, and getting lower all the time. Grasses are becoming more sugary and lush, but this dilutes out the protein content. You can have higher protein in early spring grass before the real flush of growth, but most late spring/summer/autumn grass is significantly lower in protein, as are your hays, and to a lesser degree your haylages.

Alfalfa is an exception, but that isn't a common forage type in the UK except as a chaff feed for bulking out bucket feeds - doesn't tend to be the main dietary forage source.

Protein levels aren't so low in spring/summer grass that a horse will have a huge lack in dietary protein IF there is a decent level of lysine in your grasses (often not the case in which case it doesn't matter what the protein content is, as lysine is your limiting amino acid). However in restricted pasture/mainly preserved forage diets/and grass paddocks out side optimum conditions in early spring, a source of protein particularly in the form of lysine is a bonus to the diet rather than an excess.

Sorry if you think it's a sales pitch, it's what I've been taught at uni (and we're not feed company sponsored I promise), and scientifically it makes sense. However I will agree that balancers are supposed to have feeding rates modified throughout the year, with the least in early spring and the most in winter, which most people do not do, in which case money is being thrown away and the diet not optimal.


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## hnmisty (10 November 2013)

cptrayes said:



			If you buy branded horse food when you know own brand are available, why? I'm really intrigued.
		
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Why buy Nestle shreddies, for example, when the Morrison's "malted wheaties" are exactly the same? (This is a question I have been pondering. I buy Shreddies if they're on offer, otherwise it's malted wheaties for me).


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