# advice please - will a micklem help with rearing?



## beerecco (12 April 2017)

Hi everyone, I'd be really grateful for advice.

We bought our first horse about 4 months ago for my three girls. Shes a 15.2 ISH, 8 years old, typical mare and can be rather determined about what she does and doesn't like to do, doesnt like taking the contact. Completely different from when we bought her, but I think she had been ridden by a strong rider for about 8 weeks before being put on sale and had been licked into shape! Recently a friend who is very experienced has ridden her a couple of times, and I have been paying for schooling once or twice a week for the last few weeks too as she doesnt step through enough so although the girls have been working on it, thought she would benefit from a bit of professional help.

We have had the dentist out, had her back checked, she's seen the farrier, and the vet etc. so those areas are all sorted. We've also put her on oestress as she can be mareish - not sure if it's making a difference but I figured there's no harm in carrying on!

She took a dislike to a large outdoor arena used for showjumping at the yard where we keep her, and my youngest rode her through it the first time but the second, could do nothing to persuade her from broncing and rearing (nothing too massive) in the corner, so we asked that she be schooled in there as the girls want to take part in the sj competitions. She was naughty for the instructor the first time but nothing too spectacular, but then the second time she took her in there, after a little while and out of the blue she started broncing then reared vertically twice. Im sure this is straightforward for a competent rider and the instructor stayed on and carried on riding her, but its not necessarily something my kids would sit! Especially if they were unbalanced by the broncing. The instructor said she thought it was something the mare had done before as she said she seemed surprised shed sat through it. 

We thought it was just in that arena that she misbehaved, but then about a week later my friend rode her in a different manege where shed always been fine before apart from occasional spooks when the horses were galloping in the next field which were nothing the girls couldnt cope with. She was working well and seemed really calm and relaxed, through a warmup then schooling in walk and trot, and then 15/20 mins in and out of the blue she started bucking, then reared vertically again. My friend has been riding all her life and brought her own horses on, so she sat it, ignored it, and carried on with the schooling and warm down for another fifteen minutes but its got me a bit concerned as there was no warning - she seemed utterly relaxed before and after. There was no trigger either - she was just trotting round a 20 metre circle in the middle of the school. The friend who was riding her said she thought it was when she finally accepted the contact, like an avoidance measure? So Im thinking maybe a Micklem bridle would help if its about the sensation of the contact?

All this happened just before the Easter holidays and weve been away for a week since then, so the kids havent had chance to ride since. She was schooled twice when we were away and was a bit nappy outdoors but was fine in the indoor. The kids were planning to lunge her yesterday but Ive come back to find both back hooves very cracked - so waiting for the Farrier to have a look at her now :-/

Id be really grateful for any advice on this issue. I know the kids will only improve through being challenged but at the same time, I dont want the challenges to be so big that they are completely put off riding. Would love to find a magic solution.... so is a Micklem worth trying?

Would be very grateful for any advice! Thanks.


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## oldie48 (12 April 2017)

I am sure you will get several replies from much more experienced people than me but tbh she doesn't sound like a suitable first horse. I don't know how old your daughters are or how long they have been riding but I would not have wanted my daughter on a horse that rears vertical and broncs nor would I wish to ride it myself. A first horse IMHO should be fairly straightforward and forgiving and should build confidence not destroy it, sorry I can't be a bit more positive.


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## Tiddlypom (12 April 2017)

Micklem bridles suit some horses very well, some horses go just the same as in a normal bridle, and some horses hate them.

How do you share the riding out amongst your three daughters?


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## Dawny (12 April 2017)

It depends really on your daughters. Some horses will go better in them and some won't, but I would say it won't make much difference if the horse itself isn't suitable. If they are competent and confident riders then you may find a huge improvement however if they are middling somewhere between beginner and novice then it most likely won't matter.
  If they are the right riders for the horse then I'd ask the person who's schooling if they think it would work and then give it a go.
If not, I'd get a different horse.  She sounds lovely but there's no shame in swapping out onto something more user friendly especially if they are younger children.


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## Equi (12 April 2017)

I would wonder why she hates contact so much. There is more going on than just not liking the contact. A normal horse won't react so violently to contact they disprove of. I know you said all the checks were done but by whom? Were teeth etc done by EDT or vet? What bridle/bit is she in now? What are the professionals opinions on why shes doing this?


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## beerecco (13 April 2017)

_I am sure you will get several replies from much more experienced people than me but tbh she doesn't sound like a suitable first horse. I don't know how old your daughters are or how long they have been riding but I would not have wanted my daughter on a horse that rears vertical and broncs nor would I wish to ride it myself. A first horse IMHO should be fairly straightforward and forgiving and should build confidence not destroy it, sorry I can't be a bit more positive.
_
Thanks for getting in touch - I am feeling a bit like that myself but wondering how much of it is my inexperience and whether that's something all horses would do - having said that, they have ridden friends' horses and had a couple of loans as well as the riding school and although they've been a bit naughty from time to time, nothing like this.


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## beerecco (13 April 2017)

equi said:



			I would wonder why she hates contact so much. There is more going on than just not liking the contact. A normal horse won't react so violently to contact they disprove of. I know you said all the checks were done but by whom? Were teeth etc done by EDT or vet? What bridle/bit is she in now? What are the professionals opinions on why shes doing this?
		
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Thanks for getting back to me. She had the teeth done by an equine dentist, back checked by Richard Maxwell, plus she had a 5 stage vetting in December. She is not always reactive and much of the time she is lovely, especially in the fully enclosed school where I think she feels safest, sometimes she is ok or just a bit grumpy - tail swishes and some small bucks, nothing that's an issue.  At the moment she is in a loose ring snaffle with a very plain bridle, not sure what kind but it's just a plain one with a normal noseband, no flash or anything like that. Everyone I've spoken to has thought she is trying to get out of working properly because it's difficult but at the same time, as you say, it seems like an extreme reaction. We thought it might be discomfort at first hence all the checks, and I'm not an expert, but my feeling is she doesn't want to do what she doesn't feel like and is seeing if she can get out of it. She's been difficult from time to time with my girls but it has never been as extreme so I wondered if they are not pushing her as hard. The time when I was watching my friend ride, she was schooling very gently but consistently in walk and trot and getting her to soften and work into a shape. Before and after she was absolutely fine.


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## beerecco (13 April 2017)

Dawny said:



			It depends really on your daughters. Some horses will go better in them and some won't, but I would say it won't make much difference if the horse itself isn't suitable. If they are competent and confident riders then you may find a huge improvement however if they are middling somewhere between beginner and novice then it most likely won't matter.
  If they are the right riders for the horse then I'd ask the person who's schooling if they think it would work and then give it a go.
If not, I'd get a different horse.  She sounds lovely but there's no shame in swapping out onto something more user friendly especially if they are younger children.
		
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Thanks very much for your advice. They're not that young - 13 and 15 (the 17 year old has stopped riding at the moment because of upcoming exams) but as you can tell we're not a horsey family - when I wanted riding lessons my parents thought it was too dangerous so I never got on a horse until I was 39! The girls didn't ride until they were older (the youngest was 8 or 9 I think, middle one 10) and while one of them sees every exciting thing that happens as something that makes her a better rider and wants to make sure I have videoed it so she can show her friends, the other has had confidence issues in the past and stopped riding for a while, she still loves the horse, but she has expressed a concern that she's not experienced in sitting that kind of thing and wonders if the horse is too advanced for us. Much as I'd love just to get another, finances don't stretch to a second horse for her so we need it to work for both (and the oldest when she's finished her exams). 

Re the micklem bridles - I've found that our local farm shop has an arrangement where you can rent them for a fortnight and see if they work. The lady schooling her hasn't used a micklem but I think she will hopefully give it a go. Thanks again.


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## twiggy2 (13 April 2017)

Rearing, bucking and bronking are hard work too.
A horse that rears vertical is putting itself ( and the rider) at risk, horses won't do that without good reason. Maybe the horse is avoiding pain when it carries itself in a certain way but it won't be doing it just to be naughty/difficult. 
I have worked with horses for over 30 yrs and I used to get on and ride anything through anything, these days I am of the opinion if a horse wants me off it is not ready for me to get on.
Problems need sorting from the floor or the riders are at increased risk of injury.
Horses that go vertical can over balance and land on the rider causing severe injury, a less experienced rider is more likely to unbalance the horse so is at more risk of injury.
Did you have bloods taken at the time of vetting?
I would return the horse or sue for not fit for purpose and my kids would not be getting on it again.


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## beerecco (13 April 2017)

Tiddlypom said:



			Micklem bridles suit some horses very well, some horses go just the same as in a normal bridle, and some horses hate them.

How do you share the riding out amongst your three daughters?
		
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OK - thank you, that is really helpful. I think the girls have only ridden in one once which was a TB who we tried and would have bought except the instructor said no because of foot issues as he'd been through race training (he was a sweetie, kind of wish we had gone ahead anyway but hey ho!) and the girl who owned him said it had really helped. I think I said in a reply to someone else that the local farm shop has an arrangement where you can try before you buy and only pay a small fee if it doesn't work, so I guess it's worth a try. 

At the moment, one is revising for her AS exams so she is not really doing anything else, so it's only the younger two.  In theory we were going to have a rota but in practice, the girls have been having a private lesson each on her in the week and when we can, fitting in some practice in one of the indoor maneges but that can be difficult as the yard is at a riding school so they have both been complaining that they're riding less than before we had a horse....


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## be positive (13 April 2017)

beerecco said:



			Thanks for getting back to me. She had the teeth done by an equine dentist, back checked by Richard Maxwell, plus she had a 5 stage vetting in December. She is not always reactive and much of the time she is lovely, especially in the fully enclosed school where I think she feels safest, sometimes she is ok or just a bit grumpy - tail swishes and some small bucks, nothing that's an issue.  At the moment she is in a loose ring snaffle with a very plain bridle, not sure what kind but it's just a plain one with a normal noseband, no flash or anything like that. Everyone I've spoken to has thought she is trying to get out of working properly because it's difficult but at the same time, as you say, it seems like an extreme reaction. We thought it might be discomfort at first hence all the checks, and I'm not an expert, but my feeling is she doesn't want to do what she doesn't feel like and is seeing if she can get out of it. She's been difficult from time to time with my girls but it has never been as extreme so I wondered if they are not pushing her as hard. The time when I was watching my friend ride, she was schooling very gently but consistently in walk and trot and getting her to soften and work into a shape. Before and after she was absolutely fine.
		
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Advising on issues such as this is not easy over a forum but my gut instinct based on my many years of experience is that you have bought a "problem" horse that should not have been sold to you in the first place, 8 weeks schooling to prepare an 8 year old for sale that is then sold as a first horse sounds suspicious to me, no sensible, well educated, problem free 8 year old should require that long to prepare for sale unless it was to try and iron out issues, I expect to get something straightforward ready to sell within a couple of weeks even if it is not very fit it should only need a little work to be ready to show the basic things expected of a first horse.
I did one in a week recently, he had no real issues but had become a bit stuffy, looked scruffy and only had 3 shoes on, shoes done Monday, trimmed up, ridden out for a hack, a bit of work the rest of the week, bathed, shown on Sat, went to new home on Sun, he was quick as it was word of mouth and he had lived here for some time so I knew he was genuine just being a bit cheeky with his loaner.

Going back to your issues, rearing is a serious vice, it may well be pain related but whatever the reason there is every likelyhood this is longstanding and is not going to be easy to resolve and certainly is not a horse I would let children ride, "normal" horses do not go vertical to get out of working properly unless they are really provoked by poor riding and bad hands, assuming this is not the case you need professionals involved, vet to fully examine, xray back and anything else that is suspect, then a really good trainer if nothing shows up, Richard Maxwell would be a good option to get you started, but I expect there is a physical problem and that it may be hard to get to the bottom of it.
Have you tried contacting the old owners for their advice or the trainer who schooled her, they will probably deny all knowledge of her rearing before but it could be worth a few calls.


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## beerecco (13 April 2017)

twiggy2 said:



			Rearing, bucking and bronking are hard work too.
A horse that rears vertical is putting itself ( and the rider) at risk, horses won't do that without good reason. Maybe the horse is avoiding pain when it carries itself in a certain way but it won't be doing it just to be naughty/difficult. 
I have worked with horses for over 30 yrs and I used to get on and ride anything through anything, these days I am of the opinion if a horse wants me off it is not ready for me to get on.
Problems need sorting from the floor or the riders are at increased risk of injury.
Horses that go vertical can over balance and land on the rider causing severe injury, a less experienced rider is more likely to unbalance the horse so is at more risk of injury.
Did you have bloods taken at the time of vetting?
I would return the horse or sue for not fit for purpose and my kids would not be getting on it again.
		
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OK - thank you. Yes, we did have bloods but it was more than three months ago that we had the vetting, so I am not sure how long they keep them? 

My kids are the most precious thing in the world to me so it does worry me! At the same time I"m just worrying about overreacting as I'm not massively experienced.

I really appreciate your reply in light of all your experience, thanks.


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## beerecco (13 April 2017)

be positive said:



			Advising on issues such as this is not easy over a forum but my gut instinct based on my many years of experience is that you have bought a "problem" horse that should not have been sold to you in the first place, 8 weeks schooling to prepare an 8 year old for sale that is then sold as a first horse sounds suspicious to me, no sensible, well educated, problem free 8 year old should require that long to prepare for sale unless it was to try and iron out issues, I expect to get something straightforward ready to sell within a couple of weeks even if it is not very fit it should only need a little work to be ready to show the basic things expected of a first horse.
I did one in a week recently, he had no real issues but had become a bit stuffy, looked scruffy and only had 3 shoes on, shoes done Monday, trimmed up, ridden out for a hack, a bit of work the rest of the week, bathed, shown on Sat, went to new home on Sun, he was quick as it was word of mouth and he had lived here for some time so I knew he was genuine just being a bit cheeky with his loaner.

Going back to your issues, rearing is a serious vice, it may well be pain related but whatever the reason there is every likelyhood this is longstanding and is not going to be easy to resolve and certainly is not a horse I would let children ride, "normal" horses do not go vertical to get out of working properly unless they are really provoked by poor riding and bad hands, assuming this is not the case you need professionals involved, vet to fully examine, xray back and anything else that is suspect, then a really good trainer if nothing shows up, Richard Maxwell would be a good option to get you started, but I expect there is a physical problem and that it may be hard to get to the bottom of it.
Have you tried contacting the old owners for their advice or the trainer who schooled her, they will probably deny all knowledge of her rearing before but it could be worth a few calls.
		
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Thanks for your reply. I'm sure it must be hard to visualise without seeing what happened. Wish I had been filming but it was so out of the blue, I never expected anything.

Re the schooling before sale, the lady said she'd had her at the yard for 8 weeks to get to know her before advertising, so my comment about the 8 weeks is based on that. I didn't meet the previous owner until she dropped her off. We bought the horse within about 48 hours of her being advertised as the girls all loved her - we got their instructor out and she thought she was fine too, so we arranged a vetting there and then. In hindsight the lady selling did put a lot of pressure on us in that the vetting had to be delayed then the report took a few days to go through and she kept texting me to say someone else wanted to come and see the horse and she would have to let her come out, the girls were desperate to go ahead and putting a lot of pressure on me. and I'd forked out for a vetting as well so I felt pretty pressured on all sides. Apparently she rang the vets numerous times and was really unpleasant with the receptionists too. So maybe that should have rung alarm bells, but at the same time she is someone who was known to the staff at the yard where we keep the horse and they said she was straightforward. 

I contacted the old owner a few times to ask about things, and she said nothing much had never happened before, I hate to be negative but I do feel that we haven't been told the full story about her past as when she dropped the horse off she said she'd like to follow her progress on facebook so we are now friends on facebook and soon after we got the horse she liked a post from the previous year with a photo of their old pony saying 'everything went tits-up when we got the new horse', she'd also replied to someone that the horse we bought was out on loan in Shropshire, but she never mentioned it to me directly. The post has now been deleted after I asked about it. At the same time, I am sure she genuinely loved the horse as she was really upset to drop her off and I think she'd been vetting us on FB to see if we were suitable to take on the horse they'd owned for three years whereas if she really was a complete nightmare maybe she would just have been glad to see the back of her?

We got Richard Maxwell to have a look at her and he said there were no issues, just released the tension in her neck - the man is like a magician, it was so interesting to watch!  

Pretty much every horse we tried the owners commented on what soft hands the girls had so I don't think it is that - and I know that the times she has done it, it's been with very experienced riders. 

Anyway many thanks for your advice.


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## be positive (13 April 2017)

I still think 8 weeks is a long while to "get to know" a horse you are selling, I have had a lot in to sell and I know I do a good deal for my clients I have them for 1 week to assess if I don't know enough by then to know whether or not I want to sell it from my yard I will send them back, at £150 per week it soon adds up so my assessments are short and sharp and I rarely get it wrong, after the first week I start to think about the ad, the target market and usually take another 2 weeks to get ready, most are on the market within 3 weeks although there is no guarantee they will sell quickly if they are genuine I expect them gone within a month or so otherwise the livery starts to become unrealistic.

I wonder why the vetting was delayed, running the bloods could be worthwhile, they should be held for 6 months.

If they loved her so much why were they selling? people can be good at putting on an act and they could still have loved her even if she was a nightmare to ride, tough problem for you to have as your first horse but sadly all too frequent.


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## beerecco (13 April 2017)

Thanks for getting back to me. It was delayed because the vet had to stay out with a horse with colic - we used the one recommended by our yard who we'd had for our previous vetting (the lovely horse who sadly failed it when we had her on trial - should have kept her anyway!). He's very thorough and I really respect his opinion, and he said the horse was straightforward and should be really good for us. The lady selling has another horse and said she only used the one we now have for hacking, she is actually very nappy and difficult to hack alone so she said she was selling as her daughter had given up riding. With hindsight probably because the horse had issues but at the time the lady selling her said she'd got into boys and fashion which is also something that happens to teenage girls I know!


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## be positive (13 April 2017)

Something else to throw into the mix the last tricky Irish mare I had here that behaved in a similar way to yours I now think may have been suffering from PSSM, at the time I knew nothing about the condition so just got on with "sorting" her out which entailed no feed, full time turnout and working hard every day, she improved within a week on that regime which I now know is helpful for horses that suffer from the condition.
If you search through the forum or online you will find loads of info but it is still something that is not widely picked up on even by vets, worth thinking about as it could fit in with her behaviour, her inconsistent way of going and can be very subtle until they can't cope any more, there is nearly always a reason otherwise nice horses behave badly at times it is finding that reason and fixing it that is so tricky.


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## beerecco (13 April 2017)

OK, that is interesting, thank you. I just did a quick google. In general I'd say once she's warmed up and had a canter she moves very freely, she tends to be a little choppy before that but I wouldn't have said she was too tight in her muscles. At the same time I have wondered if restricted turnout might be part of the problem. The yard where we keep her has fantastic fields but keeps them that way by really restricting turnout if it's at all wet or muddy so over winter while it's been wet,  it's been as little as an hour every other day or less sometimes. It's a lot better now but there is never an option for 24 hour turnout at this yard, overnight in the middle of the summer is the longest. When we tried her she'd been out all day the first time and out overnight the second when we went first thing in the morning (despite it being the middle of winter and way below zero - she is evidently quite a hardy beast). Didn't see any sign of restricted rations though as she had a massive pile of hay stuffed with carrots!


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## twiggy2 (13 April 2017)

beerecco said:



			OK - thank you. Yes, we did have bloods but it was more than three months ago that we had the vetting, so I am not sure how long they keep them? 

My kids are the most precious thing in the world to me so it does worry me! At the same time I"m just worrying about overreacting as I'm not massively experienced.

I really appreciate your reply in light of all your experience, thanks.
		
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The vets that vetted my horse told me they keep them 6 months


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## scats (13 April 2017)

You could try a Micklem, certainly no harm in giving it a go if your instructor or whoever schools for you is willing to give it a go, but personally I would not want to put my children on a horse who has now reared vertically under saddle several times.

God forbid that horse loses its balance and goes over backwards with one of your girls on it... is it really worth it?


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## beerecco (13 April 2017)

scats said:



			You could try a Micklem, certainly no harm in giving it a go if your instructor or whoever schools for you is willing to give it a go, but personally I would not want to put my children on a horse who has now reared vertically under saddle several times.

God forbid that horse loses its balance and goes over backwards with one of your girls on it... is it really worth it?
		
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Many thanks for the advice. I am definitely uncertain about whether I want them to get on her again and if I could go back in time certainly wouldn't have bought her! I'll try and talk to their instructor who has been away on holiday.


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## beerecco (14 April 2017)

Hello again everyone, just wanted to say thanks for all the replies which has given me plenty to think about. 

I've been mulling it over and talking to other people at the yard and it's made me wonder if I've painted her as more difficult than she is, as most of the time she is good or a bit mareish, having said that I am aware that now she has reared badly twice it looks like it could be an established behaviour which might mean she needs a stronger, more experienced rider than my girls. And as a few of you have said, the rearing could be very dangerous, but when I mentioned it to one of our neighbours at the yard yesterday she seemed to think it was par for the course and we shouldn't be put off (although that didn't completely persuade me as her daughter was saying another friend's horse that she rides at the yard does it regularly and it does feel like he might overbalance - I'd be terrified to let my girls ride something like that! But she is a very good rider used to more challenging horses...)  

At the same time, the girls love her and she is really good on the ground, to catch, in the stable, to groom, for the dentist, in the wash room, leading etc.   A friend has offered to take her away for 4-6 weeks and keep her at home where she has a couple of horses and a spare stable, and work with her every day to see what she can do. I'm tempted but the kids are horrified at the idea! So as you can see, I am still confused! 

Just wanted to thank everyone who's got in touch for all the advice.


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## Morgan123 (14 April 2017)

Don't think I have too much to add but just wanted to say that you sound like you've been very sensible about all this! It would be really tricky for anyone to think about, let alone with a first horse meant for their kids, but it's nice to hear of someone taking the time to get professional help and checks done rather than freaking out. 

If it was me I think I'd keep going with the pro help on this issue, it sounds like you've got a bit of an idea of when it's happening, and I'd probably try and work out what the horse thinks is FUN (hacking? XC?) and if she's safe doing that, I'd do a lot of that with the kids on her, and have the professionals school her in the meanwhile/kids with instructor, and see how it goes. You sound like you're being as sensible as it's possible to be in this situation. Fingers crossed for you! Do keep us updated.

Oh just another quick thought, if it's the contact, have you thought about trying bitless? Sometimes it's just nice to mix things up, but obviously depends on the horse infront of you so that might be a completely useless thought. Some horses much prefer it.

Good luck!


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## beerecco (14 April 2017)

Thanks for your suggestions  Just got back from the yard where she is being a complete moody madam today and stamping, turning round in circles and tossing her head about while I was trying to groom her and put her rug on - think she is coming into season again - so I take it back about her being perfect in the stable ;-)

It's actually hard to know what she enjoys in her work, she doesn't seem too keen to hack, will do it ok in a group but is very nappy on her own. Haven't tried her yet xc - she does seem to enjoy jumping more than anything else and focuses more. Lessons are definitely helpful and after the schooling, the kids have been able to see a difference in getting her to soften a lot quicker.  I don't want to just give up on her but then if it's starting to put one of them off riding, and we can't afford to get a second horse, need to think about the right thing to do for everyone. 

I'm going to have a chat with their instructor who is around over the next few days and see what she thinks as well, especially about the rearing.

And somehow, the kids have managed to persuade me to buy the red freejump stirrups they've always wanted as a safety measure..... so they're delighted.


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## Pearlsasinger (14 April 2017)

I have had 14 mares over the years, some of them have been quite quirky but they didn't rear. It is definitely NOT par for the course!

I wouldn't be surprised to find that your mare is in pain somewhere but the lack of turnout will certainly not be helping. Are you feeding her anything except hay? Because if so, take her off it. Horses fed on haylage can react badly and ma ny mares can't tolerate alfalfa. 
She doesn't sound like a first horse for teenagers, or indeed an yone but if your bloods come back ok, you need to look at what is causing her to behave like this now. I would also get a 2nd opinion on all the checvks you have already had done.


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## Kat (15 April 2017)

Only an hour turnout every other day? That would drive my lovely genuine mare nuts, I could not stay on a yard that restricted turnout that much. It may not fix things but to give the horse a chance you need to give her a regular routine (the same every day) and several hours of turnout each day. 

What is she being fed and how much work is she getting?


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## beerecco (15 April 2017)

Kat said:



			Only an hour turnout every other day? That would drive my lovely genuine mare nuts, I could not stay on a yard that restricted turnout that much. It may not fix things but to give the horse a chance you need to give her a regular routine (the same every day) and several hours of turnout each day. 

What is she being fed and how much work is she getting?
		
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Thanks for getting back to me. The turnout is much more now, 5 hours plus every day - it only gets that limited when the ground is very bad and there's lots of standing water on the fields - the weather has been much better recently.

She has not had much work at all in the last couple of weeks as we've been away and the person who was schooling for us has hurt her knee so couldn't get her boots on. The episodes when she reared badly happened when she was in more work and regular turnout of 5 hours daily. 

Re feed, she is on I think 10kg hay spread over three nets (small one at breakfast, one at lunch if she is in but not if she's out, and a big night one) and a handful of chaff to carry her oestress in the morning and because she gets upset if the other horses in the block get feed and she doesn't at teatime.

When she's been on restricted turnout, although she can be very forward and choppy when she first starts working for 5-10 mins, once she's had a stretch and a canter she tends to work fine.


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## beerecco (15 April 2017)

Pearlsasinger said:



			I have had 14 mares over the years, some of them have been quite quirky but they didn't rear. It is definitely NOT par for the course!
		
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Thank you - I have so much to learn with horses, and am learning all the time and glad it's not 'normal' and something we will have to expect and learn to deal with with any horse we get.




Pearlsasinger said:



			I wouldn't be surprised to find that your mare is in pain somewhere but the lack of turnout will certainly not be helping. Are you feeding her anything except hay? Because if so, take her off it. Horses fed on haylage can react badly and ma ny mares can't tolerate alfalfa. 
She doesn't sound like a first horse for teenagers, or indeed an yone but if your bloods come back ok, you need to look at what is causing her to behave like this now. I would also get a 2nd opinion on all the checvks you have already had done.
		
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The turnout is a lot more now, 5 hours daily, the 1 hour every other day is just when the fields look like swimming pools! 

Re feed, I do think the chaff she is on (only about 2 handfuls a day) contains alfalfa, will check, and she's on 3 haynets daily if in or two if out. She doesn't have any hard feed and I had her weighed by a Dengie rep recently who recommended we also put her on a general vitamin and mineral supplement which I'm hopefully going to buy today.

Having seen her rear, I do feel that it's to do with her not liking the situation, not pain. The first time she did it with my youngest (a long way off vertical thankfully but the same pattern, suddenly broncing and then rearing) she was in the big outdoor and she rode her through it and carried on with the lesson. 

She had her next lesson in there to try to get her more used to it and despite her best efforts she's not got the leg muscles of an adult and wasn't strong enough to ride her out of the corner and the instructor had to lead her. With hindsight maybe she could have opened the rein to one side and tried to get her to go like that but she was backed into the corner and the horse was starting to rear.

I suppose that gave the horse the message that she had got her own way as they went into the indoor and carried on the lesson in there and she was perfectly behaved. My daughter wants to do the pony club group on her which takes place in the big ourdoor so we asked for her to be schooled out there to get her used to it and this was the first place she reared so massively - I think because she doesn't like it out there and as it was an experienced rider schooling her, she sat through the rearing and carried on - she's been schooled in there since and was only nappy and schooled in the indoor, behaved perfectly.

This is what makes me think that if the girls were stronger riders, they could probably ride through it and get a lot out of the horse, but as she is so determined and intelligent, she will probably try it on with them and I am starting to feel that they need a horse which is a bit more co-operative then they can improve their balance and strength.

We had a lovely horse on trial who very sadly failed the vetting on flexion, she was much older and more experienced and had done sj and a bit of eventing in pony club, the girl selling was going to university and they were a lovely family. When we had her on trial we had the most wonderful two weeks with her: the kids could just ride her round the farm ride, practice jumping bareback, hack out with friends, splash through the river etc - she was really chilled and would canter over a row of logs then come back to trot at the end not get really excited. I still think we should have kept her despite the vetting :-(  

When we bought our current horse I imagined from what the seller said that she would be the same. I know that persevering with the current one might make them into better riders but I think maybe she is more of a second or third horse. 

Anyway sorry for the long response and thank you for your advice.


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## oldie48 (15 April 2017)

As already said, "rearing is not par for the course" we've had many horses and ponies over the years and we only had one that reared,a youngster that napped and would put in a rear if prevented from whipping round, my daughter sorted that very quickly but she had brought on youngsters before and basically the horse had a very good temperament. The more you write about this mare, the more sure I become that this horse is not a suitable horse for three teenagers as their first horse, one of your daughters is already losing confidence and it sounds like an accident waiting to happen. I am sorry to be so blunt but your daughters are precious. In reply to your enquiry about the Micklem, I use one on my horse and it suits him better than a conventional bridle but I don't think it would stop your mare from rearing or bucking.


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## frannieuk (15 April 2017)

beerecco said:



			Thanks for your suggestions  Just got back from the yard where she is being a complete moody madam today and stamping, turning round in circles and tossing her head about while I was trying to groom her and put her rug on - think she is coming into season again - so I take it back about her being perfect in the stable ;-)

It's actually hard to know what she enjoys in her work, she doesn't seem too keen to hack, will do it ok in a group but is very nappy on her own. Haven't tried her yet xc - she does seem to enjoy jumping more than anything else and focuses more. Lessons are definitely helpful and after the schooling, the kids have been able to see a difference in getting her to soften a lot quicker.  I don't want to just give up on her but then if it's starting to put one of them off riding, and we can't afford to get a second horse, need to think about the right thing to do for everyone. 

I'm going to have a chat with their instructor who is around over the next few days and see what she thinks as well, especially about the rearing.

And somehow, the kids have managed to persuade me to buy the red freejump stirrups they've always wanted as a safety measure..... so they're delighted.
		
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Just something you could try - I have a mare who exhibited very similar symptoms and, suspecting ulcers, I changed her diet to Alfa A, Topspec Ulsakind and Protexin Acid Ease. Within a week I had a different horse who was happy to be brushed and fiddled about with in the stable, and the rearing and evasion issues I had in the school vanished overnight. It's worth a try if nothing else!


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## ester (15 April 2017)

I don't think you have made her sound worse than she is, rearing and bronking are not 'just what horses do'. 

There are a couple of possibilities here, 1) the horse has always had this 'issue' which may be physical or mental and the seller had either stopped the behaviour with strong riding or medication prior to sale, thought they had sorted it and after some time it reared it's head again to you. 
2) this is new behaviour and is linked either to the management of the mare or she is in pain from something new.

The violence of the reaction 'out of nowhere' makes me think it is likely something hurts. 

I would proceed by getting the vet out and arrranging for your pro rider to be there at the same time so they can discuss what has been occurring together. Depending on whether you intend to keep the mare regardless or potentially want to challenged the seller about whether she is fit for purpose I would also discuss with the vet whether they would advise to test the bloods from the vetting at this point. They aren't cheap to test but it can be done in stages, ie they can do an initial screen and then go more into specifics if a definitive report is required. 
I would absolutely not be allowing any teenagers to ride this horse as it stands.


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## southerncomfort (15 April 2017)

My normally sane mare recently had a complete personality change after being on an alfalfa-based hay replacer.  She is normally quite quiet to ride but but it's been like sitting on an unexploded bomb.  I think if she'd have had limited turnout (she is out 24/7) at the same time she could have become quite dangerous.  I've now changed her on to an oat straw based chaff and I'm waiting for the alfalfa to leave her system before sitting on her again!

I'm afraid I have to agree with the posters above.  Rearing and broncing are not normal behaviours.  Riding a horse that rears is very dangerous.  You have been lucky up until now but it wouldn't take much for her to over backwards and seriously injure her rider.  As a mother, I absolutely would not be allowing your daughters ride her until you have found and solved the issue.

For me, the first port of call would be the vets.  She needs a full examination by the vet as such explosive behaviour is almost always down to pain somewhere.

If the behaviour cannot be explained by a physical issue then frankly you need to think about whether you have been miss sold the horse.  I don't think their can be much argument that she is totally unsuitable as a first horse, it's just about whether you can prove that the previous owner was aware of the behaviour (and I'd be my house that she was!).

Really feel for you and your girls and hope their is a good outcome for you.


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## beerecco (15 April 2017)

southerncomfort said:



			My normally sane mare recently had a complete personality change after being on an alfalfa-based hay replacer.  She is normally quite quiet to ride but but it's been like sitting on an unexploded bomb.  I think if she'd have had limited turnout (she is out 24/7) at the same time she could have become quite dangerous.  I've now changed her on to an oat straw based chaff and I'm waiting for the alfalfa to leave her system before sitting on her again!
		
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Thanks for the advice. I think she's been on this feed regime for quite a while and normally when ridden in the indoor arenas that she likes, she is fine, so not sure it's the issue but worth considering. 



southerncomfort said:



			I'm afraid I have to agree with the posters above.  Rearing and broncing are not normal behaviours.  Riding a horse that rears is very dangerous.  You have been lucky up until now but it wouldn't take much for her to over backwards and seriously injure her rider.  As a mother, I absolutely would not be allowing your daughters ride her until you have found and solved the issue.
		
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I think you have all persuaded me of this now! Oldest daughter volunteers at our local RDA and she's been having a chat with the instructors there who also said that she's not the right horse for us. 

I do feel in my heart that the behaviour is to do with needing a rider who will not be put off by her bad behaviour not an injury or pain, simply because she's not agitated and works fine both before and after - if the rearing doesn't do the trick she carries on as good as gold. Especially thinking back to when my youngest was riding her in the arena she hates and couldn't get her out of the corner where she was rearing and bucking, and then she went straight on to work beautifully in the indoor straight away. 

I did notice when we bought her that the old owner and the lady who sold her to us who has a livery yard both kept stressing that we should get lots of lessons on her over the Christmas holidays - which with hindsight probably indicates that they knew she could be difficult.



southerncomfort said:



			If the behaviour cannot be explained by a physical issue then frankly you need to think about whether you have been miss sold the horse.  I don't think their can be much argument that she is totally unsuitable as a first horse, it's just about whether you can prove that the previous owner was aware of the behaviour (and I'd be my house that she was!).

Really feel for you and your girls and hope their is a good outcome for you.
		
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Thanks, and thank you for getting in touch, I really appreciate your advice.


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## beerecco (15 April 2017)

ester said:



			I don't think you have made her sound worse than she is, rearing and bronking are not 'just what horses do'. 

There are a couple of possibilities here, 1) the horse has always had this 'issue' which may be physical or mental and the seller had either stopped the behaviour with strong riding or medication prior to sale, thought they had sorted it and after some time it reared it's head again to you. 
2) this is new behaviour and is linked either to the management of the mare or she is in pain from something new.

The violence of the reaction 'out of nowhere' makes me think it is likely something hurts. 

I would proceed by getting the vet out and arrranging for your pro rider to be there at the same time so they can discuss what has been occurring together. Depending on whether you intend to keep the mare regardless or potentially want to challenged the seller about whether she is fit for purpose I would also discuss with the vet whether they would advise to test the bloods from the vetting at this point. They aren't cheap to test but it can be done in stages, ie they can do an initial screen and then go more into specifics if a definitive report is required. 
I would absolutely not be allowing any teenagers to ride this horse as it stands.
		
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Thanks very much for your advice. I'm not going to let the girls ride her again at the moment, youngest is riding a riding school horse in today's dressage comp instead! Hopefully will get chance to talk to their instructor about next steps. I know what you mean about 'out of nowhere' seeming to indicate pain but as I just said in a reply to another message, it's behaviour that does seem to arise from where she is ridden (currently only occurring in the outdoor schools which she doesn't like, and the time when my youngest didn't manage to ride her through it and couldn't get her out of the corner of the arena where she was broncing and rearing, the instructor had to lead her out and in to the indoor school where she behaved perfectly for the next 20 minutes or whatever was left of the lesson). 

I don't think she is the horse for us, at least not right now, maybe in the future she would be ok if the girls had a lot more experience and confidence. However as the lady who sold her to us is not from far away and known to staff at the yard, I would be very surprised if anything showed up in the bloods - but the lady selling her is a very strong and experienced rider who I am sure could cope with whatever the horse could throw at her in a way that my girls probably couldn't. 

Thanks for getting in touch


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## ester (15 April 2017)

It is worth saying that there are reasons that pain issues only come to fruition in certain areas, tension can for instance mean a tweak of a kissing spine that wouldn't happen if the horse were working in a relaxed manner. It is also the sort of tweak that once happened could resolve pretty quickly and not occur again during a session. 
IME it is very rare that any issue with such a violent reaction is truely only behavioural in nature.

'just a bit grumpy - tail swishes and some small bucks, nothing that's an issue.' - that is an issue and indicative of a wider problem

'Everyone I've spoken to has thought she is trying to get out of working properly because it's difficult' 

The easiest/less energy expenditure to the horse is usually just to work properly not to respond as this mare is. 

Some horses exhibit quite quiet signs that there is an issue, yours seems to be shouting quite loudly. Richard Maxwell was originally largely self taught with regards to the manipulation he does so although I am sure it works well for some I wouldn't take the fact he found not a lot to be diagnostic. If this behaviour was out of the blue I would have expected the seller to be fairly shocked and be asking what may have happened, would have come and had a look, offered to take the horse back etc in order to protect their reputation. It seems that the seller quietly told you that it hadn't happened before and didn't say much more about it which doesn't fill me with confidence that they didn't know about the issues.


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## beerecco (15 April 2017)

Thanks for getting back to me. Would something like kissing spine not be picked up in a 5 stage vetting? I've just had a quick look at indicators, she is reluctant to work into a contact, but seems to love jumping and shows no sign of discomfort. She is fine being tacked up and shows no sensitivity to having her back brushed or stroked. 

TBH I haven't contacted the lady who sold the horse, only the previous owner, as I was asking about things that happened when she had the horse before she was put up for sale - she was owned by the previous person for 3 years.. At the same time I think she and the seller are friends so I assume they have discussed it. I know when I most recently contacted the former owner I asked if she'd reared and she said the only behaviour issues she had had with the horse was that she didn't want to hack on her own and did 'a few little bunny hops' in protest, then one time she couldn't get her to leave the yard so sent her off for schooling for two weeks. 

You could describe the tail swishes and small bucks as 'little bunny hops' I guess which is what makes me think that it's a continuation of behaviour she had before, and the fact that she displays it when the rider is trying to get her to hack alone but not when she is schooling/jumping in the indoor where she is more comfortable for some reason. I do see what you mean about tension but am still not sure why she should be so uncomfortable in a manege without proper walls or hacking, but then work absolutely fine with no sign of discomfort or grumpiness in the indoor.

I was thinking of contacting the person who actually sold her to us to ask about the rearing - i.e.  if it happened when she had the horse preparing her for sale. 

Thanks for your advice, it's another thing to think about.


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## Meowy Catkin (15 April 2017)

beerecco said:



			Would something like kissing spine not be picked up in a 5 stage vetting?
		
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I just wanted to pick up on this.

The answer is 'no' because X-rays of the spine are not a part of a 5 stage vetting. Any condition that requires extensive diagnosis or scans, X-rays, scoping etc... wont be picked up by a normal vetting.


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## beerecco (15 April 2017)

OK - many thanks for the info. Definitely another thing to think about then. I will update the thread once we've made any further steps and thanks again for all the helpful replies.


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## Leo Walker (15 April 2017)

ester said:



			It is worth saying that there are reasons that pain issues only come to fruition in certain areas, tension can for instance mean a tweak of a kissing spine that wouldn't happen if the horse were working in a relaxed manner. It is also the sort of tweak that once happened could resolve pretty quickly and not occur again during a session. 
IME it is very rare that any issue with such a violent reaction is truely only behavioural in nature.

'just a bit grumpy - tail swishes and some small bucks, nothing that's an issue.' - that is an issue and indicative of a wider problem

'Everyone I've spoken to has thought she is trying to get out of working properly because it's difficult' 

The easiest/less energy expenditure to the horse is usually just to work properly not to respond as this mare is. 

Some horses exhibit quite quiet signs that there is an issue, yours seems to be shouting quite loudly. Richard Maxwell was originally largely self taught with regards to the manipulation he does so although I am sure it works well for some I wouldn't take the fact he found not a lot to be diagnostic. If this behaviour was out of the blue I would have expected the seller to be fairly shocked and be asking what may have happened, would have come and had a look, offered to take the horse back etc in order to protect their reputation. It seems that the seller quietly told you that it hadn't happened before and didn't say much more about it which doesn't fill me with confidence that they didn't know about the issues.
		
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This! My sister had a mare that was fine schooling with a competent rider and hacking in company but when asked to hack alone used to nap and do small rears. She could be ridden through it and was better with more turn out and regular work. Turned out she had kissing spines when she was xrayed. She had the injections and improved massively for a short while then the behaviour came back


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## beerecco (15 April 2017)

Leo Walker said:



			This! My sister had a mare that was fine schooling with a competent rider and hacking in company but when asked to hack alone used to nap and do small rears. She could be ridden through it and was better with more turn out and regular work. Turned out she had kissing spines when she was xrayed. She had the injections and improved massively for a short while then the behaviour came back
		
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That's really interesting!

Normally with the schooling she is ok in the arenas she likes (indoors) but not the outdoor ones - but at the same time that does sound very similar. Thanks very much.


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## Pearlsasinger (15 April 2017)

beerecco said:



			That's really interesting!

Normally with the schooling she is ok in the arenas she likes (indoors) but not the outdoor ones - but at the same time that does sound very similar. Thanks very much.
		
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That could be because the surfaces in the two schools are different, maybe the outdoor I'd deeper, taking more effort to move her feet through it, causing her pain in her hocks or back.
I'm afraid that ma ny inexperienced owners/riders do blame the horse for what they see as "challenge going behaviour" but over the years, I and many others on here, have learned to listen to the horse and have realised that unusual behaviour, which rearing definitely is, is most often pain related. You don't know this horse well but I think tthatfor an experienced owner who knew her well there would be visible signs that she is not happy, long before she got to vertical rearing. Sometimes riding through a problem isn't the best way to deal with it.


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## Leo Walker (15 April 2017)

beerecco said:



			That's really interesting!

Normally with the schooling she is ok in the arenas she likes (indoors) but not the outdoor ones - but at the same time that does sound very similar. Thanks very much.
		
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It was just that she was a nice mare. When things were ok she just coped with it. But when it was out of her comfort zone it all got too much and she couldn't. Actually I'd forgotten, but when a mutual friend rode her one day, a very good competent riding school rider, who should have been fine the mare got in a right tizzy and keep shooting off, then took a really strong hold and took off round the area, we had to call her to us to get her to stop. The mare had had total non riders on her before but only plodding around in walk with someone on foot. But when someone rode her who could ride a bit but probably not enough she got really upset. It might not be related but she was a nightmare to load as well, which looking back, was because she was uncomfortable. 

It might not be that, but she had been seen by physios etc and the vet who all said there were no issues, but it turns out there were sadly!


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## beerecco (16 April 2017)

OK - thanks. In our case it's been the opposite in a way, in that when my girls ride her she has never reared much apart from in the outdoor school, and then not vertically! Whereas when it's been more experienced and stronger riders she has. My girls have had regular lessons on her and inside it's not been a problem, the only time she has ever bolted is one time near the end of a schooling session (not in a lesson) where my youngest decided to stand up in the saddle in canter along the long side and I think she became a bit unbalanced, kicked out, hit the wall, started broncing along and lost the rider at the corner. I wasn't sure if it was excitement or what but my daughter got back on and carried on and she was fine after. Apart from that she has never bolted except the first day we got her when youngest daughter hacked her out alone with me walking alongside and when she was adjusting her stirrups so had her feet out, a bird flew out of the hedge and spooked the horse, who was standing on a muddy slope and spooked, daughter fell forward over her shoulder and she galloped the mile back to her stable. 

One thing that makes me feel it is behaviour related is that when we first got the horse, she was more co-operative and we could get her to hack alone. Now she just plants, backs up and threatens to rear if you try to hack her alone, so I think she feels that she can now make a decision about what she is prepared to do and the girls can't push her. At the same time I see what you're saying about being in her comfort zone - but the first day she arrived if anything you'd think she would be more tense and less in her comfort zone being in a new place?

The surfaces in all 4 schools are different, but her favourite and one of the outdoors are pretty similar regarding depth and softness.


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## ester (16 April 2017)

Well that of course depends if she had been medicated previously


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## southerncomfort (16 April 2017)

You may be right and it may be behavioural, but you won't know unless you rule out physical causes first.  It is more usual for a horse to be unsettled to begin with in a new home and then settle down.  The fact that it seems to have happened the other way around *MAY* suggest that she had been medicated in some way.  If can rule out any physical issue, and as mentioned above that will mean back xrays, then you might need a professional trainer or behaviourist to have a look at her.  However, I have to agree with the popular consensus, horses don't become awkward or difficult without reason.  By and large they prefer a quiet life and the vast majority of horses that bronc or rear do so because they are in trying to tell the rider that they are in pain.

I once had a pony bolt with me.  He'd been trying to tell me for a while that his wolf tooth was hurting but the vet kept telling me it was fine.  I got a second opinion, had the tooth removed and he was back to his usual lovely self.

I certainly think your first port of call ought to be to get the bloods tested and get your own vet to give the horse a thorough examination.  It might also be worth asking the lady who sold her if the horse saw a vet during the time at her yard and if she or the old owner would object to you seeing the horses's vet records or talking to whichever vet the horse was previously registered with.  If they start being cagey I think alarm bells ought to start ringing.

You haven't had this horse long but it sounds like your girls have already had a few tumbles, I mean this kindly but please do get the horse checked over before someone gets very badly hurt.  

Best wishes.


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## beerecco (16 April 2017)

ester said:



			Well that of course depends if she had been medicated previously
		
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good point!


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## beerecco (16 April 2017)

_Quote Originally Posted by ester "Well that of course depends if she had been medicated previously"
_



beerecco said:



			good point!
		
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I can see what you all mean about pain and agree it would be helpful to rule that out as a potential issue. It may be that issues have developed in the 4 months since we bought her I guess. Another friend has recommended an equine chiropractor, and I also have yet to discuss with their instructor and the other instructor who's been schooling her to get their thoughts. 

I don't want to be too specific as I don't want to cast aspersions on the seller as she obviously has a reputation and I have no evidence of wrongdoing and am in two minds about whether there has even been any intentional mis-selling, but I do think it's very unlikely that the horse has been medicated. I feel that the horse she was described as isn't necessarily the horse we've bought but that's a bit different, especially if she behaved differently for a stronger rider on a much smaller yard with fewer distractions. 

Having thought about it, there are too many links between the yard where she is now kept and the seller's yard for her to have drugged the horse and although I do think this has been a horse who has been difficult in the past from having seen stuff on facebook etc. I am confident that the seller would not put her reputation at risk by medicating her. 

Also having seen a friend's horse bought in haste at auction and subsequently found to have been drugged, there was a very sudden change in behaviour when the meds started to wear off - by contrast, I feel that this horse has become gradually more assertive about what she doesn't want to do as she's found that the girls don't necessarily have the experience to know what to do when she stops dead and refuses to go forward. 

A staff member at our current yard keeps her horses at the yard where ours came from (one of the reasons we bought her was that this instructor knew the horse from its time at the other yard) so even if she was that unscrupulous (which I don't actually think she is) it would get back pretty quickly. Despite the horse's history, from what the previous owner said, the issues which she personally had with hacking the horse alone weren't replicated when the yard owner took over schooling so I wonder if she either didn't have any issues with the horse, or if she did she just rode her and got on top of them, and looking at the info on Kissing Spine, increasing ridden work should increase the symptoms not reduce them? The previous owner said that for the 8 weeks before sale, the horse was ridden daily to get her back into work as she'd not really been doing much.

Thanks again for all the advice which is all food for thought.


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## beerecco (16 April 2017)

Last reply I promise but I wanted to say I am sorry if I've come across as inconsistent in my messages. I think I've been feeling a bit resentful ever since we bought the horse as we didn't meet the previous owner until after we'd already paid for and taken delivery of the horse. I saw the message on the old owner's facebook page about 'everything went tits up when we got *****' and that made me question everything that I was told about the horse. Additionally I felt that we were put under unreasonable pressure when we'd arranged and paid for a vetting and the certificate hadn't been issued and I didn't want to agree to go ahead until we had the certificate in place to set up insurance.

However, I do think that the previous owner cared about the horse despite finding her difficult, and I don't think that the seller lied to us, I think maybe they knew that the horse could be determined but thought that my girls would be able to cope with her challenges (when we tried her she spooked massively, and swerved from a jump when one of the others was on, then did a massive overjump, and in that context they did cope fine - so maybe the seller saw them as kids who would cope with a bit of a challenge?).

Everyone's responses have challenged me to really think about things and I agree maybe there is something going on with saddle fit or back but I also think the likelihood is that the only difference between the horse at the seller's yard and when we got her was the size of the yard, and the experience and confidence of the rider.


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## faerie666 (16 April 2017)

beerecco said:



_Quote Originally Posted by ester "Well that of course depends if she had been medicated previously"
_



Having thought about it, there are too many links between the yard where she is now kept and the seller's yard for her to have drugged the horse and although I do think this has been a horse who has been difficult in the past from having seen stuff on facebook etc. I am confident that the seller would not put her reputation at risk by medicating her. 

Also having seen a friend's horse bought in haste at auction and subsequently found to have been drugged, there was a very sudden change in behaviour when the meds started to wear off - by contrast, I feel that this horse has become gradually more assertive about what she doesn't want to do as she's found that the girls don't necessarily have the experience to know what to do when she stops dead and refuses to go forward.
		
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"Medicated" and "drugged" aren't necessarily the same thing. 
Plenty of conditions such as arthritic changes, kissing spines etc are routinely medicated with steroid injections into the affected area. This reduces the pain and allows the horse to work comfortably for a while, but the effects will wear off over a period of 3-6 months usually, and injections need to be repeated. I think this would fit with the deterioration in your mares behaviour, ie, she was treated before she went on sales livery, was ok for 3-4 months, then symptoms started reappearing. She would have passed a vetting easily while the meds were working, and, unfortunately for you, if the treatment was done more than 21 days before the vetting, won't show in the bloods either.
There isn't, in my eyes anyway, anything wrong with medicating horses like this to allow them to work comfortably, but this should absolutely have been declared to you when you bought her, if that's the case. I can't help but wonder if the old owners simply didn't tell the sales livery yard about it.
I think I would start by asking the old owners if they would be happy for you to talk to their vet about the horse. If they say no, you probably have your answer.


A horse that was doped or buted for an auction, would of course change back much quicker, because the drugs would wear off in a matter of hours, or maybe days.


As an aside, I've had experience with several horses with moderate to severe kissing spines, and the behavioural symptoms were different for all 3.


The first one came to the racing yard I was working at as a complete neurotic mess, who would sometimes bronc until he fell over when mounting, but was ok, if a little tense, if you managed to get on. He was in training for a total of about 2 years, had physio nearly every month, and numerous vet visits, and no one at any point suggested back X-rays. He also had the most amazing fluent, scopey jump I've ever seen, and absolutely loved to jump too. I ended up re-backing him, and he became safe to mount and actually quite a nice ride. 
He was given to me after he tweaked a suspensory ligament, and after a few months field rest, I asked a different physio to see him before bringing him back, she took one look at him, and told me she wouldn't touch him until he had his back X-rayed. I took him to the vets 2 days later, it was one of the worst cases of KS the vet had ever seen, and the was put to sleep that same day.

One in particular though, was very similar to your mare. He was a racehorse at the time too, and we used four different gallops/canter tracks regularly. Two of them he was always perfect on, and a small child could have ridden him. The other two tracks, he could be fine on for weeks, and then one day he would start of fine, lovely and relaxed, and then suddenly bolt blindly, or take off broncing until the rider came off. There was never any warning when he was going to do it.
He ended up having the ligament snip surgery, and turned into one off the most reliable, nicest rides on the yard afterwards.

My last horse showed his discomfort by turning spooky and nappy out hacking, and randomly shooting off in the school. Again this didn't happen every time I rode him. He too ended up having the surgery, but sadly, due to the fact he he also had a problem with his sacroiliac joint, he didn't really recover, and was put down 2 months ago.


I'm sorry if I put more worry on you by giving two examples out of 3 that weren't success stories, that was just my own bad luck and plenty of horses are treated successfully. I wanted show that just because horses are in pain, doesn't mean their behaviour is consistent from day to day.

I also wanted to say that even if your mare turns out to have a physical problem, there is a good chance it's something that can be managed, and she still could be the right horse for your daughters. That's if you're happy to pay the vet bills, that is. If not, I would be trying to get my money back from the sellers, and find a new horse.


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## beerecco (16 April 2017)

faerie666 said:



			"Medicated" and "drugged" aren't necessarily the same thing. 
Plenty of conditions such as arthritic changes, kissing spines etc are routinely medicated with steroid injections into the affected area. This reduces the pain and allows the horse to work comfortably for a while, but the effects will wear off over a period of 3-6 months usually, and injections need to be repeated. I think this would fit with the deterioration in your mares behaviour, ie, she was treated before she went on sales livery, was ok for 3-4 months, then symptoms started reappearing. She would have passed a vetting easily while the meds were working, and, unfortunately for you, if the treatment was done more than 21 days before the vetting, won't show in the bloods either.
There isn't, in my eyes anyway, anything wrong with medicating horses like this to allow them to work comfortably, but this should absolutely have been declared to you when you bought her, if that's the case. I can't help but wonder if the old owners simply didn't tell the sales livery yard about it.
I think I would start by asking the old owners if they would be happy for you to talk to their vet about the horse. If they say no, you probably have your answer.
		
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Thanks for clarifying this and I see what you mean. So much to learn......! 

She is insured with NFU mutual and there are no exclusions because she had a clear vetting so I assume we could get this diagnosed and treated under the policy although I think the max may be £5000 (can't remember now as I shopped about....). Started reading through it yesterday but ran out of time, I will have another look when we get back. 



faerie666 said:



			I'm sorry if I put more worry on you by giving two examples out of 3 that weren't success stories, that was just my own bad luck and plenty of horses are treated successfully. I wanted show that just because horses are in pain, doesn't mean their behaviour is consistent from day to day.

I also wanted to say that even if your mare turns out to have a physical problem, there is a good chance it's something that can be managed, and she still could be the right horse for your daughters. That's if you're happy to pay the vet bills, that is. If not, I would be trying to get my money back from the sellers, and find a new horse.
		
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I've messaged the lady who actually sold her to us, not the previous owner, a couple of hours ago, to ask about behaviour issues when she was getting the horse back into shape before sale, and have heard nothing back yet. 

It's really helpful to hear about your examples so thanks for sending them through.


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## ester (16 April 2017)

Yes there wasn't necessarily the suggestion that the seller had medicated the horse either, she only had her 8 weeks, most steroid injections last 3-6 months minimum and can last longer. 

I am a bit confused I thought you had already spoken to the seller about her behaviour?

A chiropractor won't be able to tell you much other than any  muscular tension she have, which is likely not the whole story if it is there (other stuff usually generates it) do get the vet rather than wasting money on other professionals at his stage (a Chiro/physio should also not treat your horse without veterinary permission anyway, and if you asked the vet for permission with the description you have given they would likely advise not until they had seen her)- Fwiw I am very pro- physio my own has shown me how much difference that can make with regards to him looking lame or sound but I have a decade of his history.


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## Caramac71 (16 April 2017)

I really feel for you as we have been through similar with my daughter's horse. Daughter was 15 at the time and had loaned previously. She was reasonably capable and we found a very green 5 year old mare who seemed to be exactly what we were looking for. 

We had her on trial for a month, had her vetted and bought her. She was very stressed about the move and took a long time to settle, and she was always tail swishy, tense and spooky when ridden - but vet felt there was nothing physically wrong, she was just overly sensitive.

Probably 6 weeks or so after we got her, her behaviour worsened. She started rearing, but this coincided with a new saddle so we out it down to that. She would nap in the corners of the school, and plant, and if my daughter pushed her on she would go up. She actually worked through this over the first summer, probably because my daughter learnt the signs when she was threatening to rear and would change tact to prevent it. 

So we got through the first summer, gave her time off over winter and brought her back into work the following February. She started off great but as the intensity of work increased she reverted back to napping and occasionally rearing. She then developed other symptoms that prompted us to get vet to investigate. Everything came back clear - back X-rays, lameness work up with nerve blocks, scoped for ulcers, ovaries scanned, regumate trial ... However vet agreed with us that she thought it was pain related, rather than behavioural, and insurance agreed to a bone scan - which is when we discovered arthritic changes in her spine (facet joints).

2 years on and we are still persevering  . Sadly we have had to resign ourselves that she'll never be the competition horse that my daughter wanted - however she is a much happier horse since we've known what we are dealing with. Having said that, we still feel there is perhaps more going on than the vets have found but that's another story.

We've had her 3 years now so we understand her more. She is a lovely affectionate mare and she hasn't a nasty bone in her body, so I do feel her behaviours were her way of telling us something was wrong. Even when she did rear, she would always give warning first, it just took us a while to learn the signs. 

Her previous owner was a very experience adult and I think she had learnt to get on with it, which is why it took a few weeks before she realised she could be a bit more challenging and assertive with my daughter. 

In your position I think I'd have a chat with a vet and see what they'd suggest. i really hope you get to the bottom of it and get back the lovely mare you thought youd bought. your daughters sound very brave as many kids would refuse to get back on one that reared with them. As a mother i know how scary it is to watch so I hope for all your sakes you get this resolved.


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## beerecco (16 April 2017)

ester said:



			Yes there wasn't necessarily the suggestion that the seller had medicated the horse either, she only had her 8 weeks, most steroid injections last 3-6 months minimum and can last longer. 

I am a bit confused I thought you had already spoken to the seller about her behaviour?
		
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OK - sorry not to have been clearer. The previous owner didn't sell the horse, a friend who owns a livery yard sold her instead as the former owner was upset to let her go, so I have only been in contact with the owner who I met for the first time the day the horse was delivered, the seller did say I could contact her any time with any issues but I didn't simply because I had support at the yard where the horse is kept so just asked for advice in person.



ester said:



			A chiropractor won't be able to tell you much other than any  muscular tension she have, which is likely not the whole story if it is there (other stuff usually generates it) do get the vet rather than wasting money on other professionals at his stage (a Chiro/physio should also not treat your horse without veterinary permission anyway, and if you asked the vet for permission with the description you have given they would likely advise not until they had seen her)- Fwiw I am very pro- physio my own has shown me how much difference that can make with regards to him looking lame or sound but I have a decade of his history.
		
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Thanks for the feedback about the chiropractor. So really the vet is the first port of call on this by the sound of it.


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## beerecco (16 April 2017)

Caramac71 said:



			I really feel for you as we have been through similar with my daughter's horse. Daughter was 15 at the time and had loaned previously. She was reasonably capable and we found a very green 5 year old mare who seemed to be exactly what we were looking for. 


In your position I think I'd have a chat with a vet and see what they'd suggest. i really hope you get to the bottom of it and get back the lovely mare you thought youd bought. your daughters sound very brave as many kids would refuse to get back on one that reared with them. As a mother i know how scary it is to watch so I hope for all your sakes you get this resolved.
		
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Thanks very much for getting in touch - that sounds really similar in many ways, my girls had loaned previously and ridden other horses so although they have a lot to learn they have a bit of experience with horses who could be challenging. You're absolutely right I think most horsey mums have nerves of steel (especially when I see the jumps and things that friends of the girls do routinely) but my nerves have certainly been tested recently!

Your description of how the horse behaved sounds exactly like how ours is in the big outdoor school - and the advice we've had is that it's naughtiness. However having heard so many different responses on this thread that are similar, I guess we need to make sure we investigate fully. 

Hope that things continue to improve with your mare and hope that you do track down the issue fully if possible. Out of interest, what were the symptoms that made you certain it was pain related?  Thanks again for getting in touch.


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## Caramac71 (16 April 2017)

beerecco said:



			Your description of how the horse behaved sounds exactly like how ours is in the big outdoor school - and the advice we've had is that it's naughtiness. However having heard so many different responses on this thread that are similar, I guess we need to make sure we investigate fully. 

Hope that things continue to improve with your mare and hope that you do track down the issue fully if possible. Out of interest, what were the symptoms that made you certain it was pain related?  Thanks again for getting in touch.
		
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Our mare was labelled as naughty  by many people.  To be fair, she is a clever horse and she is a big character, so even without pain I think she would be challenging at times  .  But our physio was always adamant there is no such thing as a naughty horse and she gave us the confidence to go with our gut instinct when we were surrounded by more experienced people who were telling us it was behavioural.

The symptom that made us seek vet advice was when she started kicking out in canter. She'd often previously buck on the transition into canter, which we understood wasnt unusual given her age and how green she was - but this was different.  It was once she was in canter that she started kicking out with her left hind.  Tried riding through it (was told it was naughtiness!) but over a period of time she got worse.  She started to anticipate canter and would back off before asked, then gradually she'd back off from trot until the point when she would barely go forward.  

Because there was so little to go on, the vet wanted her ridden lots to try and make symptoms worse, and therefore easier to diagnose.  But we ended up with a very unhappy horse and by this stage you could see she was sore in her back - she was so sensitive to even being touched.

I do agree with the previous posters who have said that situations that make their horse more tense will bring on the behaviours.  It sounds like yours doesnt feel safe in the outdoor arena, therefore she is more tense and if she is experiencing any pain/discomfort it's going to be more evident.

It's hard though, when you dont know the horse all that well and you aren't hugely experienced, and everyone around you has a different opinion.  I hope all turns out well for you and your girls.


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## beerecco (16 April 2017)

Caramac71 said:



			Our mare was labelled as naughty  by many people.  To be fair, she is a clever horse and she is a big character, so even without pain I think she would be challenging at times  .  But our physio was always adamant there is no such thing as a naughty horse and she gave us the confidence to go with our gut instinct when we were surrounded by more experienced people who were telling us it was behavioural.

The symptom that made us seek vet advice was when she started kicking out in canter. She'd often previously buck on the transition into canter, which we understood wasnt unusual given her age and how green she was - but this was different.  It was once she was in canter that she started kicking out with her left hind.
		
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That is really interesting as it's something I've seen ours do a few times, it looked to me like a response to not being quite in balance but although I have now spent many many hours watching lessons and horses being ridden I've still loads to learn. She doesn't do it every time but also does sometimes buck on the transition - doesn't look like a buck that is to unseat the rider in any way, more a balance thing. 



Caramac71 said:



			It's hard though, when you dont know the horse all that well and you aren't hugely experienced, and everyone around you has a different opinion.  I hope all turns out well for you and your girls.
		
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You're absolutely right, I have so much to learn about horses in general and especially about this one, but I do feel like a lot of what you are saying sounds familiar. And yes everyone has advice and different people I really respect have different advice which makes it even harder! Plus she is an intelligent horse, she picks things up really quickly in lessons so say if the girls try an exercise 3 times in a row, she will know what they are looking for by the third time and gets better every time - plus she has shown signs of intelligence by letting herself out of the stable overnight to steal everyone else's food, supplements and treats...!! Although as this led to a very gassy stomach and cuts and grazes all over her head, maybe intelligence but not much forethought.....

Many thanks again for taking the time to respond and giving me another possible view of what's been labelled as naughty / avoidance behaviour.


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## beerecco (9 May 2017)

Hi everyone, just thought I'd give you a quick update on our mare. 

Asked round at the yard and pretty much everyone was convinced it was a behaviour issue... I have been oscillating between the two points of view, but in light of the advice I had from staff and other owners at the yard, we moved her to a friend's farm where my friend said she'd do some groundwork with her and try to gently ride our mare through the rearing, and see how things went. The horse settled really well from the point of view of being chilled in the stable and in the field, but the rearing increased to the point that every time she was ridden she would go up vertically - even though my friend rode through it and carried on working or got straight back on on the times she came off. She asked  another friend to come and ride her - she rides for a physio so is experienced with riding horses with problems, she thought it was pain related behaviour.

Got the vet out who x-rayed her in case of kissing spines or bone issues in her hocks - both completely clear - so he's coming out again to see her on the lunge and suggested a fortnight's bute trial to see if the behaviour changes which would indicate pain, and then we could investigate further with bone density scans if need be. However he seemed a bit sceptical of the idea that it was pain related, once he'd seen the x-rays.

Yesterday I saw this really interesting film about facial indicators of pain in horses - based on a new report by the Animal Health Trust -

http://www.aht.org.uk/index.php?app...ressions&sid=d8p1f0308451adlb2hwd83phn77083v5

 - and it's true that she displays many of these facial expressions - ears back probably 70-80% of the time when ridden, mouth open, we've noticed from photos that sometimes you can see the whites of her eyes, and she's shown a real unwillingness to work in an outline... which seems to tie in with the theory that it is a pain issue. Obviously we're going to work with the vet to see if we can find out if she has any issues causing her to react in such an extreme way to being asked to work in walk and trot by a very kind rider! My concern is that now she has got into this pattern of behaviour, ie the rearing, is it likely to stop even if we do manage to find the source of any pain?


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## starfish8 (9 May 2017)

Have you considered something maybe out of the ordinary like a damaged wither?  It does sound like pain to me.  I assume you've had her saddle checked (and then checked again for a second opinion!)?  In terms of fixing the behaviour, I would think if you can eliminate the pain you should expect it to take a while to resolve as she'll be anticipating/remembering the pain to begin with - in your shoes I would be enlisting the help of a professional to get through the worst of that stage, but that's probably more to do with my own abilities rather than saying everyone would need to.


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## scats (9 May 2017)

Well done for getting her xrayed.  It does sound like it is a pain issue or has stemmed from a pain issue.

I would be interested to hear the outcome of the bute trial and whether the behaviour stops or lessens.  I do hope she doesn't injure anyone in the process though.


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## ester (9 May 2017)

thank you for the update, sometimes we rarely get them. They sound like very good friends and friends of friends!


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## beerecco (9 May 2017)

Thanks for the replies  

Just got back from seeing the vet, and there was no sign of lameness on flexion, trot up or lungeing. However the vet thinks she may be 'displaying clinical signs of low grade ulcers' as she is increasingly sensitive in the girth area so the next step is to get her scoped. 

Tack check and/or bute trial is the next thing on the list after that, and yes, I am very grateful for the kind support especially of the friend whose farm she is staying on at the moment!


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## beerecco (9 May 2017)

And ... I think the first serious episode of rearing happened after she let herself out of the stable at night and ate everyone else's breakfasts, a tub of joint supplement, a big bag of treats etc.... as well as destroying a wheelbarrow and a chest of drawers - wondering if the increased food intake could have changed the balance in her stomach and made it more acidic, leading to ulcers forming or something else?


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## PorkChop (9 May 2017)

Thank you for the update, it is always interesting.

Great that you have been able to start ruling things out, I would think ulcers is certainly something that I would investigate too.

Remember that sometimes bute irritates the gut, so if she gets worse on bute for me that would indicate ulcers.


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## anastasiyax (2 June 2017)

Okay I have 2 different experiences from two different horses but add up to your situation. Firstly rode a mare who would be fine one minute next i was on the ground. She was 17.1 and if i was a bit bigger maybe i could have stayed on but there was no warning i didnt even realised what happened before it was too late. However 9/10 she was perfect i rode her babreback etc. Eventually i saw a pattern, it was her seasons, she was put on "the pill" basically and if i she acted up i got off she was lunged (and often went nuts) but after would be good as gold again. Basically my advice would be to lunge before you ride especially in the bad arena, if shes a mare and its seasonal might be an option with the pill. Next my own pony is under 14 hands however things hes a stallion and does rear vertical although often predictable (ill take a rear over a buck as they have to stop to rear, they can however buck and gallop) anyway he's ridden in a micklem bitless, i wouldnt say it has stopped his rearing because his rearing is from fear out on hacks or excitement at a show. HOWEVER if your horse is rearing because she dislikes the poll pressure on the bridle (very possible) then yes the micklem will help. what bit is she ridden in now? is it a poll pressure bit? Whats stopped his rearing is basically just working through it but it can be daunting if youve never had to deal with something like this before. Although the rearing builds up his bum muscles and makes him a fab jumper and tbh i dont mind a rear i find them fun. Consider using a calmer as aswell before riding, used it for the mare when we went away to a new place and it really helped.


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## Flyermc (2 June 2017)

how are you getting on OP?


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## wkiwi (2 June 2017)

beerecco said:



			And as a few of you have said, the rearing could be very dangerous, but when I mentioned it to one of our neighbours at the yard yesterday she seemed to think it was par for the course and we shouldn't be put off .
		
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I haven't read the rest of the comments yet but this bit shocked me. It is NOT par for the course to have a horse rear and no you should definitely be put off. I have re-schooled numerous horses and i agree with "be positive" (comments earlier) that a rearer is not at all suitable for a first horse. I would forgive a young horse that lost its balance once or twice and did a lift of the front legs or spin when very frightened by something, but they need riding through this by an experienced rider so that they don't turn into experienced rearers (those that repeat and go right up are usually practised at it or become so very rapidly). 
You may have already decided that this horse is not safe (as i said, i haven't got to the end of the comments yet) but the fact that you have to ask and that you are considering getting someone to work on the horse means this one is not suitable. Even if someone more experience gets the horse through the rearing, this will only recur once the girls start riding again. 
 I would post the horses name on facebook and see if you can find out its history (from people other than its seller/owner) and try to get a refund if this is a long-standing issue. I am sure that your girls won't be happy initially if you tell them they need to have a different horse, but are you willing to risk their lives by letting them continue with this horse? I have had two horses try to go over backwards on me (deliberate attempts not a loss of balance) and i can tell you that they ARE risking serious injury/death if this happens. Even a horse that doesn't mean to go over can be pulled over by an inexperienced rider losing their balance. 
This sort of behaviour is NOT par for the course in a well-trained horse.


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## wkiwi (2 June 2017)

Have now read the other posts and it is great that you are looking at physical things too. It would be great if it turned out to be something simple and fixable. 
An easy way to sort out if it was a new behaviour or not would be to get the previous owner to come and ride the horse (preferably in her original bridle and saddle if she still has them) and see if the mare behaves or not. 
We have a mare on the yard that has done advanced dressage when younger but can't cope with less experienced riders and rears, but is fine with experienced riders that ride to a soft contact. After a novice rider had her for two years of which she hadn't been ridden for 18 months (because of 'issues' - was sold from the field) she only took a week to get going kindly. She had been bought for a  semi-experienced rider (BHS stage 2) but the mare made it clear that she wasn't happy and started to rear on day 3 (went fine on day 1, less good on day 2). This behaviour pattern is shown whenever any rides her that doesn't keep the sort of contact she likes and give the aids that she knows. (note she is only ever ridden by experienced riders, or at least bythose that think they are).
My point is that even if the horse has threatened to rear, it only takes a few minutes of a rider she knows to have her going forward again so your mares original owner should have no problem getting the horse going again if it is just that the mare is taking advantage of your girls in a new situation/ i know you have had other experienced riders on her, but a mare that is set in her ways with one rider might resent different aids etc. anyway. 
If the owner is not happy to help out (assuming she hasn't stopped riding for physical reasons or something) then i would be suspicious.


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## beerecco (4 June 2017)

anastasiyax said:



			Okay I have 2 different experiences from two different horses but add up to your situation. Firstly rode a mare who would be fine one minute next i was on the ground. She was 17.1 and if i was a bit bigger maybe i could have stayed on but there was no warning i didnt even realised what happened before it was too late. However 9/10 she was perfect i rode her babreback etc. Eventually i saw a pattern, it was her seasons, she was put on "the pill" basically and if i she acted up i got off she was lunged (and often went nuts) but after would be good as gold again. Basically my advice would be to lunge before you ride especially in the bad arena, if shes a mare and its seasonal might be an option with the pill.
		
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Thanks for getting in touch, she is a mare and it got worse when spring came but I wouldn't say it's possible to definitely link with the seasons. It sounds like you're more of an experienced rider than my girls! Everyone she has reared properly with since we've had her has ridden through it, she's only reared a bit with my girls on board and they just carried on, and every time someone's fallen off her they've just got back on and carried on, unfortunately that didn't seem to improve things though which is why we were thinking maybe it was either a behaviour that hadbeen there for a while or a sign of pain.


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## beerecco (4 June 2017)

wkiwi said:



			Have now read the other posts and it is great that you are looking at physical things too. It would be great if it turned out to be something simple and fixable. 
An easy way to sort out if it was a new behaviour or not would be to get the previous owner to come and ride the horse (preferably in her original bridle and saddle if she still has them) and see if the mare behaves or not. 
We have a mare on the yard that has done advanced dressage when younger but can't cope with less experienced riders and rears, but is fine with experienced riders that ride to a soft contact. After a novice rider had her for two years of which she hadn't been ridden for 18 months (because of 'issues' - was sold from the field) she only took a week to get going kindly. She had been bought for a  semi-experienced rider (BHS stage 2) but the mare made it clear that she wasn't happy and started to rear on day 3 (went fine on day 1, less good on day 2). This behaviour pattern is shown whenever any rides her that doesn't keep the sort of contact she likes and give the aids that she knows. (note she is only ever ridden by experienced riders, or at least bythose that think they are).
My point is that even if the horse has threatened to rear, it only takes a few minutes of a rider she knows to have her going forward again so your mares original owner should have no problem getting the horse going again if it is just that the mare is taking advantage of your girls in a new situation/ i know you have had other experienced riders on her, but a mare that is set in her ways with one rider might resent different aids etc. anyway. 
If the owner is not happy to help out (assuming she hasn't stopped riding for physical reasons or something) then i would be suspicious.
		
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Thanks for your helpful advice. The mare had been bought for a girl about the same age as my oldest 3 years ago, who gave up riding after she had had her for a year/ year and a half, she was then out on loan but this is someone I've found out from seeing a post on the old owner's facebook not been told, then spent a while not doing much then she was sent to a livery yard to be brought into work for sale. I don't know if the person who sold her would be willing to get on her again, but when i contacted her about the rearing she said she couldn't help. I think my girls have quite a soft contact, and the rearing seems to occur more when it's a more experienced rider as she's never gone up vertically with my girls on - the only one time she nearly did was a spook - although she's bronced and napped with them on board and once threw off the youngest when she decided to stand up in canter in the school. 

She's still on holiday at my friend's farm at present, she had two weeks off completely on the vet's advice when we started the treatment for ulcers and she's now being lunged prior to arranging for someone who is used to rearing horses to get on and see how she is, whether her behaviour is any different after the ulcer treatment as the vet said although there is another 5 weeks to go on the treatment she should be feeling much better after 2-3 weeks. 

I really appreciate you getting in touch with your advice about rearing not being par for the course as well!

It would be lovely if it just sorts out with the ulcers and was just a reaction to pain - as soon as we've got someone to sit on her I'll update the post and let you all know how we got on!


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## MeltingSnowflake (14 June 2017)

Any update on your mare, *beerecco*? 

I know it's still early days, but I followed your thread with interest as I had a similar pony  when I was a teenager and we never got to the bottom of it - it was heartbreaking.

Hope she's improving!


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## beerecco (15 June 2017)

MeltingSnowflake said:



			Any update on your mare, *beerecco*? 

I know it's still early days, but I followed your thread with interest as I had a similar pony  when I was a teenager and we never got to the bottom of it - it was heartbreaking.

Hope she's improving!
		
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thanks for getting in touch. We've brought her back and put her on schooling livery as of this Monday as she'd not been ridden for a while and my friend couldn't find anyone brave/foolish or with any free time to climb on her, and with her going straight up then minute anyone climbed on board I definitely don't blame them. I was nervous about the girls at the yard riding her as I didn't want them getting hurt so asked them to lunge before riding just to get a feel for how she was, but I wasn't there and the girl who is riding her for us didn't bother and she was fine! So it's definitely going better so far. Monday she was lunged as I brought the tack home to clean without remembering they would need it at the yard to ride (oops) but she's been schooled twice since then with a day off yesterday, and I managed to get down to the yard today to watch and there was no evidence of bad behaviour/grumpiness apart from a bit of head shaking and a couple of tail swishes. She was still unwilling to work into a shape at the beginning and looked quite stiff on one rein and a bit crooked, but after a canter on both reins and quite a lot of work on circles etc. she was starting to work into a shape in trot. 

She was also much better around the girth and no sign of swishing tail and grumpiness when we were round the back end, so I think we can be pretty sure that the ulcers were causing pain even though there wasn't that much ulceration there.

She's on schooling livery for the next month which works for me as we're getting to the tail end of teenagers' exams and quite busy but initially it's looking positive. Going to get her saddle checked as soon as poss as with time off work she has put on a bit of weight! She's also lost a lot of fitness so I think it will be step by step to get her back to where she was before all this started. 

She's on overnight turnout at the moment which means about 16 hours in the field, so she's getting plenty of time to stretch and graze, and still on omeprazole at a half dose for the next 4 weeks or so.

So - so far so good! We've not tried her in any of the places she was not happy before yet, so that is the next step.


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## ester (15 June 2017)

Good update  It is nice to follow these things I always end up wondering what happens to some of the horses. Fingers crossed it keeps moving in the right direction.


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## beerecco (15 June 2017)

Thank you!!


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## Emily Blunt (16 June 2017)

I would ask why she despises contact to such an extent. There is more going ahead than disliking the contact. A typical stallion won't respond so brutally to contact they discredit of. I know you said every one of the checks were done yet by whom? Were teeth and so on done by EDT or vet? What harness/bit would she say she is in now? What are the experts assessments on why shes doing this?


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## MeltingSnowflake (18 June 2017)

Thanks for the update! Sounds positive so far, well done for sticking with her, I hope she comes right - will have everything crossed for you


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## beerecco (20 June 2017)

Unfortunately things aren't all sorted as I'd hoped... we'd had trouble hacking her as I think I said as she would just plant and refuse to move then threaten to go up. She has been really good in all the schools so far including the outdoor that she doesn't like, but when the girl who is schooling her tried to take her round the farm ride to cool down she was not keen, planting, spinning, then rearing to try to get out of hacking. She rode her on through it but our mare reared again twice when she came to a point where you could turn round - so maybe the ulcers exacerbated things but I don't think they were the root of the problem. 

We're keeping her on schooling livery for a month to get her properly back into work and she will hopefully improve as when we bought her, she was in really good shape and impeccably behaved, but I don't know what to do next. Ideally to sell her to someone who can deal with her tantrums - are we likely to be able to find anyone who wants to take her on? On the plus side, she is very healthy and loves jumping, very easy to deal with on the ground and lovely to ride when she's not throwing a strop.


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## ester (20 June 2017)

It isn't unusual for ulcers to be a response to pain elsewhere I'm afraid, increasingly they seem to be usually secondary to something else going on.


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## beerecco (20 June 2017)

We had her back and hocks x-rayed and the vet trotted her up, saw her lunged etc. She was sensitive around her stomach which she isn't now - but the vet's advice was that the ulcers were the only thing going on, and that if that didn't sort it then it was probably behavioural.


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## Leo Walker (20 June 2017)

Its almost never just behavioural either sadly, just pain that hasnt been found yet


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## beerecco (21 June 2017)

Leo Walker said:



			Its almost never just behavioural either sadly, just pain that hasnt been found yet
		
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Just very difficult to look for any other causes as

- we're first time horse owners with no experience and everyone we've spoken to face to face at they yard who's either ridden her or watched her behaviour has said it's the horse pushing the boundaries

- spine x-rays and hocks were clear, full lameness workup clear

- the ulcers which did show up were just a couple of grade 1 ulcers, very small. She did seem uncomfortable round her girth temporarily - that started in April and she showed no sign of it prior to that - but the napping and threatening to go up started almost from when we first got the horse, it's just that my girls didn't react by pushing back as hard as the people we've had schooling her

- vet fees for the investigations and treatment we've had so far have amounted to over £2000 (of which fortunately the majority has been covered by our insurance) and the vet has advised us that he thinks there is nothing wrong and if she is continuing to rear we just need to get tougher with her

- the rearing only happens when the horse doesn't want to be somewhere - eg, doesn't want to hack/be ridden in an outdoor arena, but in the indoor she is ok. This time when she started rearing on the farm ride it was before she set out, first of all spinning and then rearing when spinning didn't have any effect. She then reared at the first point where you'd turn round, then again at a point where you might turn back, which adds to my feeling that it's aimed at getting out of doing what she doesn't want to do - even if that's just a gentle walk around the farm ride. 

I feel that we've done all we can with the horse with our limited experience. I was hopeful when she came back after having her ulcers treated that we had fixed the problem but as that's turned out not to be the case, I am now hoping that we can find a new home for the horse where the rider is equipped to deal with her behaviour and would have the confidence to ride through it. 

At the same time, along with the amount we spent on the horse and what we've spent on equipment, livery, vet fees and so on, we are looking at about having spent over £10000 on a horse that the girls can't even sit on (that's not including what the insurance paid out), and while we have her they are not riding or occasionally riding riding school horses. 

I have no idea what we could sell her for as she has her good points - lovely on the ground, when not rearing her paces are great, she likes her jumping etc - but I could never sell her on to anyone without being sure they were fully aware of what she's capable of and I don't want her to end up in a bad situation.

Feeling pretty downcast about the whole thing, and questioning whether it was a good idea in the first place to buy our own horse.


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## beerecco (21 June 2017)

PS Sorry for the uncharacteristic rant. Just feeling confused about what to do next and hoping we will find a good solution.


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## Flyermc (21 June 2017)

Ive only ever sold one horse in my life and he was very straightforward, im certainly not an experienced, but have you considered asking the person/dealer you bought her off to re-sell her for you?


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## beerecco (21 June 2017)

THanks for getting in touch. I'm feeling so bad about my previous grumpy message. Think the hot weather is getting to me. 

I did contact the person who sold her and asked if she'd experienced her rearing, and she replied to say she couldn't help me but it sounded like a pain response so I should get her back and teeth checked.  So after that response I don't think she would help out unfortunately.


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## Leo Walker (21 June 2017)

beerecco said:



			PS Sorry for the uncharacteristic rant. Just feeling confused about what to do next and hoping we will find a good solution.
		
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I wasnt having a go at you at all, sorry if it came across that way. Its a very difficult situation to be in.


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## ester (21 June 2017)

Don't be sorry for the rant, of all places we should know how difficult it can be with them, even more so when you have no true knowledge of their history. 

Just a thought we may have covered this before does she have other previous owners details in her passport?


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## beerecco (21 June 2017)

Thank you.


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## beerecco (21 June 2017)

Oops sent that without writing most of the planned content! It's a good idea re the passport but we're the third owner in there and the other two are friends - she was brought across from Ireland by someone when she was about 1 and then sold on to the previous owner who lives very nearby. 

She didn't rear today, was just nappy, and is going out on another hack with a couple of other horses tomorrow so I just need to be patient and see what happens. Just having a grumpy day I think. Thanks again everyone for all the help and advice.


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## MeltingSnowflake (21 June 2017)

Oh - so sorry - how frustrating for you!!  I know you've spent a fortune already but perhaps it's worth getting ovaries checked? (Apologies if you've already had it done - I have read the whole thread but it's been a while).  

Maybe hormones? A trial of regumate?


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## beerecco (22 June 2017)

I did ask the vet about that, he thought with her behaviour it was unlikely to be a hormone issue because she is generally relaxed and only rears if she doesn't want to do something, doesn't show any sign of aggression etc., and also the rearing isn't linked with when she is in season - the vet said we should be able to see a difference 2 weeks out of three when she was ok then have a bad week.  A couple of people have said their horses didn't show the stereotypical behaviour of hormone issues though so maybe it would be worth checking. 

I think if I was more attached to the horse - like if we'd had her for a while and the girls had been able to ride her without constantly being on guard as to what she'd do next, I'd probably want to explore all the options more, but seeing as she was already nappy and difficult to ride out on the farm ride or in the outdoor arenas even before she started rearing, since the rearing started I've found it hard to trust her and don't want the girls to ride her - even though the youngest is constantly asking when she can ride her again. 

At the same time I suppose I should give a bit of an allowance for her being brought back into work. It might be with the schooling that she starts to get into regular work again and gets more accustomed to being ridden and stops rearing again - but then with a rider who isn't as confident at pushing her on  it would probably recur. Anyway - I think the best thing to do will probably be not jump to any conclusions yet and see how she is going at the end of her month's schooling, update the vet on what's going on and get his advice. 

Thanks for your advice.


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## Pearlsasinger (22 June 2017)

beerecco said:



			I did ask the vet about that, he thought with her behaviour it was unlikely to be a hormone issue because she is generally relaxed and only rears if she doesn't want to do something, doesn't show any sign of aggression etc., and also the rearing isn't linked with when she is in season - the vet said we should be able to see a difference 2 weeks out of three when she was ok then have a bad week.  A couple of people have said their horses didn't show the stereotypical behaviour of hormone issues though so maybe it would be worth checking. 

I think if I was more attached to the horse - like if we'd had her for a while and the girls had been able to ride her without constantly being on guard as to what she'd do next, I'd probably want to explore all the options more, but seeing as she was already nappy and difficult to ride out on the farm ride or in the outdoor arenas even before she started rearing, since the rearing started I've found it hard to trust her and don't want the girls to ride her - even though the youngest is constantly asking when she can ride her again. 

At the same time I suppose I should give a bit of an allowance for her being brought back into work. It might be with the schooling that she starts to get into regular work again and gets more accustomed to being ridden and stops rearing again - but then with a rider who isn't as confident at pushing her on  it would probably recur. Anyway - I think the best thing to do will probably be not jump to any conclusions yet and see how she is going at the end of her month's schooling, update the vet on what's going on and get his advice. 

Thanks for your advice.
		
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TBH, I would not be happy with a vet that said "no, it can't be........" without testing.  Almost all behaviour has a physical or emotional cause in humans and animals.  An emotional cause for a horse's behaviour would be a previous fright in a particular place, for example but that isn't the case with your mare, as she hasn't been to your yard previously. So, I would expect the vet to explore all possibilities.  Some horses do feel so uncomfortable on particular yards, though that their behaviour deteriorates and when they are moved, their behaviour improves.


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## TheHairyOne (23 June 2017)

I know a girl who was bought a not cheap (5k ish) 6/7 year old mare from ireland off a 'well known' kent dealer. The mare was great for about a month then threw EVERYTHING at the inexperienced teenage girl who rode her. She reared, napped, spun, refused to be caught or would charge you down, bucked, refused to load, the lot except she was fine to handle once you had caught her and she was at the stables. 

There was nothing found to be wrong with the mare at all. The girl stuck at it, was her first horse and her mum said they'd not get another if she was sold. Not sure i would have done, but they got a LOT of lessons. And I mean a lot. Once the mare had some confidence in her rider she was a different horse and is now out competing very successfuly.

What was telling about this mare was the fact she could be ridden through it by basically ignoring her and carrying on with what you were asking her to do. She had just trained her rider to get off and put her away. When they finally clicked they have done everything.

That being said...not sure id have sat a 15 year old on her again after some of her antics.

Tough place to be and i feel for you. If you do sell i would suggest sales livery to get her shown off properly. If she is pretty and talented at something and advertised honestly then someone may take a chance.

Good luck whichever way it goes


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## beerecco (29 June 2017)

TheHairyOne said:



			There was nothing found to be wrong with the mare at all. The girl stuck at it, was her first horse and her mum said they'd not get another if she was sold. Not sure i would have done, but they got a LOT of lessons. And I mean a lot. Once the mare had some confidence in her rider she was a different horse and is now out competing very successfuly.

What was telling about this mare was the fact she could be ridden through it by basically ignoring her and carrying on with what you were asking her to do. She had just trained her rider to get off and put her away. When they finally clicked they have done everything.

That being said...not sure id have sat a 15 year old on her again after some of her antics.
		
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Thanks for the advice. It does sound a bit like our mare, but not 100%. If it was down to the girls they would be riding her again but it's me who's not keen! Before the rearing started the girls were having 2 lessons a week on her - and I was seeing an improvement in the way she was working in that they were focusing on getting her to work more from the back end, doing a lot of pole work to encourage her to improve her canter and its flexibility etc - jumping is fine so that was mainly done as a treat but the focus was on schooling to get her to work better.

Throughout she has been really good to handle, load, lead, tack up, groom etc although in the period before her ulcers were diagnosed she was very stressed when anyone went near her tummy so despite the ulcers seeming minor, I now think with hindsight they were affecting her. 

She's now had 2 weeks of schooling (4 days per week) and the girl who is riding her feels like she's getting to know her a bit better and describes her as 'rude' - she feels that the horse tries to get out of hacking / being ridden where she doesn't want to be by threatening to rear, spinning, napping etc. and can be ridden through it - but sometimes it takes quite a bit of strength of character and a lot of confidence. 

She's varying the work with a couple of days hacking round the farm ride in a group and a couple of days of schooling, and from being quite stiff and unbalanced after about 4/5 weeks out of work she is looking a lot more supple. She got a bit overexcited yesterday in a group canter and bronced but that used to happen when my girls were riding her so I think that's just what she's like and feels like excitement rather than that she is trying to eject the rider.

I am feeling a bit more optimistic that the worst of the issues were caused by the ulcers and that we will either (hopefully) be able to find another home for her with a rider who can ride through her quirks or alternately that it may be possible to keep her but definitely my preference at the moment would be to find a home with a more confident rider for her!

Thanks for getting in touch.


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## beerecco (29 June 2017)

Pearlsasinger said:



			TBH, I would not be happy with a vet that said "no, it can't be........" without testing.  Almost all behaviour has a physical or emotional cause in humans and animals.  An emotional cause for a horse's behaviour would be a previous fright in a particular place, for example but that isn't the case with your mare, as she hasn't been to your yard previously. So, I would expect the vet to explore all possibilities.  Some horses do feel so uncomfortable on particular yards, though that their behaviour deteriorates and when they are moved, their behaviour improves.
		
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Thanks for getting back in touch. I do see what you mean... 

I have wondered if the yard is ideal as I know some horses struggle with a larger yard, but she seems to have settled in fine - literally walked into her stall after being at my friend's farm for 6 or 7 weeks and started munching at the haynet as if she'd never been away - she never shows any sign of distress or discomfort at being walked round in hand (although when she first arrived in December she was a bit jumpy when walking past the woods etc)

The vet felt that the only other diagnostic that would be worth carrying out should she still be rearing after the ulcer treatment was a full bone scan which he said would be expensive and require her to be admitted to the vet hospital overnight, and he didn't really feel that it was justified as she shows no sign of lameness. 

Anyway, as the rearing seems to have stopped after that one reoccurence when hacking it does make me think that it was to do with the pain of the ulcers as it was her consistent behaviour when anyone tried to ride her - and maybe became habitual as a way of getting out of working?


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## beerecco (21 July 2017)

Another update - apart from rolling with rider on board on the farm ride after a hack on a very hot day, she has definitely been better. She's more chilled in the stable, no reaction at all when you go near to her tummy or back end when grooming/washing so I am wondering if she had ulcers before from when we first had her or at least when she was on box rest with cellulitis which started within a fortnight of us buying her. On the other hand, overnight turnout definitely suits her, and once the turnout is decreased with winter weather it may be that her behaviour deteriorates again.

I'm getting conflicting advice from different people about whether we should try to sell her and get something more suitable, or persevere with her, my girls haven't ridden her yet and the schooling has been a bit hit and miss as the girl who's doing it has a lot of other demands on her time which is unfortunate so she's not been consistently worked.

If we could afford just to keep her but not necessarily ride her I would not want to sell as she's a real sweetie in the stable and good in all ways on the ground/dentist/farrier/catching/loading and so on. Also having tentatively started looking again it's reminded me of how much I hated looking for a horse to buy!

I'm wondering if it might work to see if we could loan her to someone who has the confidence to ride her through the napping and then see if we could take her back a couple of years down the line by which time hopefully the girls will be more established in their own riding if we get something more straightforward - any advice?


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## scats (21 July 2017)

I would think you might struggle to find someone willing to loan a horse and sort out its problems, knowing the owner would want it back when it was sorted.  That's a bit like putting an awful lot of work into someone else's horse and paying for the privilege.

You say your daughters haven't ridden it for a while (understandable, I wouldn't put my child on a rearer). Did you get this horse for your daughters to ride but they can't ride and you are having to get someone else to ride it for you?

I would move the horse on and find something that your daughters can enjoy.  You've done fabulously to continue with it up to now, but life is too short, get something they can enjoy and that you don't have to worry about when they are riding.


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## beerecco (21 July 2017)

scats said:



			I would think you might struggle to find someone willing to loan a horse and sort out its problems, knowing the owner would want it back when it was sorted.  That's a bit like putting an awful lot of work into someone else's horse and paying for the privilege.
		
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I can see what you mean, but I wasn't meaning that really, as she isn't really showing the problematic behaviour in the school now, just hacking, so it's more that someone more confident can just ride through the napping and get her going forward and if they didn't have the upfront cash to buy maybe it would suit them - plus they wouldn't have to commit to owning her forever - and it it was working out well for them maybe we could agree to sell.

Although she hasn't reared now since the 2nd/3rd time ridden after being out of work after the ulcer diagnosis, it is possible it would recur with a less confident rider I suppose. It was the first time that the girl who's schooling her took her out on the farm ride. But mainly I feel that it will knock the confidence of my middle daughter if she struggles to get her to move (she just planted/spun with the girls when they tried to hack her alone) and I'd just like them to be able to go out for a  hack when they feel like it without them or me being worried. At the same time I am really fond of the horse so reluctant to sell. 

But yes what I want is something that they can just get on and have fun and not feel like they have to be on their guard all the time. One of the really experienced staff at the yard has described our mare as 'very intelligent' - she will try to get out of work (mainly hacking, she's pretty much always been ok in the school apart from when she evidently had ulcers and we weren't aware) and if you just carry on, she tends to get on with it but you just have to watch her - whereas what I want is a horse that will not be trying to push the boundaries so that the girls can improve their seat and just enjoy riding.

Anyway thank you for your advice.


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## be positive (21 July 2017)

I think she may be difficult to move on either selling or loaning when she is still proving tricky with the professional riders, I would be tempted to find somewhere to send her for a couple of weeks where she will be worked every day properly, schooling being hit and miss is not helping anyone least of all you who is paying for it, horses like this need consistency initially if they are to have any chance of improving, the yard she is on does not seem to be suitable if they cannot put in the time at this stage. 

If you can find somewhere that she will have the work required it may be that she will come round and your daughters can start to ride her or it at least opens up the options which at the moment are limited as you have no idea whether with more regular work she will settle down, I work tricky ones every day, sometimes twice a day before gradually reducing the work to give them a day off then two days or more but only once they are in a good routine and have shown improvement, stopping and starting often means a step forward then two back and is not fair on the horse.


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## oldie48 (21 July 2017)

Well done for sorting her out but I'd definitely move her on to a more experienced home and get your daughters something they can enjoy and that will give them confidence. Don't loan her out, another rider may sort her out but there's no guarantee that when she comes back to you that she won't revert to nappy behaviour and tbh she doesn't sound the sort that will loan out easily anyway.


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## beerecco (21 July 2017)

thanks to both of you for advice! 

 completely agree the inconsistency in schooling is regrettable - unfortunately I was away and not aware that she wasn't being ridden. 

Probably just finding a new home is best all round, I'll just be sorry to say goodbye to her if she does go.


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## Flyermc (21 July 2017)

I thought id tell you my story

Ive ALWAYS loved horses, all my life. Apparently even at nursery i used to walk around with a plastic horse all the time. My family were not horsey or particularly well off, but after a family event, we was fortunate enough for both me and my sister to get £500 each that we could do what we wanted and i decided to spend mine on riding lessons.

Anyway i rode at the school, helped out several days a week and longed for my own horse for years! After waiting 16 years, my mum and dad bought me a 4 year recently backed (as in 2 weeks) old Welsh D. He was (and still is) gorgeous, he was a challenge to ride (like any baby) but cheeky not dangerous.  

Over the years, we done everything (hacked alone and in company for miles, fun rides, riding holidays, beach rides, showing (never left a show ring without a rosette) jumping, dressage, le trek, hunting, cross country etc etc) he is by far the best pony. I still own him (he's now 21) im married (of course he came to the wedding) with a nearly 3 year old and baby number 2 due in afew weeks.

My pony is so amazing that my little girl rides (sits on him) brushes him and leads him around the yard.

I know you like your mare, but honestly there are amazing pony's out there, that would seem to suit your girls better. Pony's they can have alot of fun with while they are young, but still good enough to do well at showing, jumping, dressage, hunting, beach rides etc etc.


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## beerecco (22 July 2017)

Flyermc said:



			Over the years, we done everything (hacked alone and in company for miles, fun rides, riding holidays, beach rides, showing (never left a show ring without a rosette) jumping, dressage, le trek, hunting, cross country etc etc) he is by far the best pony. I still own him (he's now 21) im married (of course he came to the wedding) with a nearly 3 year old and baby number 2 due in afew weeks.
		
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Thanks for getting in touch. It sounds like you have a lovely pony! If you see another like him please send him to me ;-) Seriously, you're probably right. We have never previously been in the position of having to rehome a pet, when the horse we had on trial failed the vetting and we had to send her back after two weeks (the vet said it simply wouldn't be fair for her to continue jumping as she had issues with her hocks) I was in floods of tears and had to hide in the stable so it's going to be difficult for me to send her away to someone new even though I know she's not right. When I thought she could go to a lovely new home with a friend who is a farmer I was over the moon as I knew she would be well looked after and happy so I'm probably being a bit sentimental about her but also feel responsible for her future, if you know what I mean. At the same time I sometimes wish we'd never bought her!


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## oldie48 (22 July 2017)

Over the years we've had to sell on several ponies and horses. Some were much loved but completely outgrown, others were unsuitable, with most we wept buckets as they disappeared down the drive with their new owner, the occasional one I have sighed with relief to see them go to a more suitable home. The only regret that I have is struggling on with one horse for too long blaming myself for our failure to  get on, spending a lot of money on training/schooling etc to try to find the right buttons. This horse is now "the horse of a lifetime" for his new owner doing a different job to the one I bought him for. All anyone can do is try the best they can to find a decent home for a horse they move on and they are out there. good luck!


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## eatmyshorts (22 July 2017)

Firstly, huge well done for the commitment & dedication you've shown to this mare & to getting to the bottom her issues. I agree with everyone who has said this kind of behavior is very rarely just behavioral & there is nearly always an underlying cause, as you've found. However, sometimes even when the physical issue has been resolved, horses can have "remembered pain" where even although the pain is gone, they behave in the same way they have learned during protesting about or coping with the pain. 

I have a horse i  bought as a "problem" ( i like to call them "rehabs") about 14years ago. He'd been deemed unrideable & many people before me had "had a go" including doing things such as keeping him in a stable with live electric fencing round it, strapping homemade devices between his ears, & ear-twitching him. Contrary to being the "dangerous maniac" he was described to me as, he is kind, gentle & sensitive soul who did indeed have underlying physical issues & was reacting because he was in a lot of pain. After numerous vets, backmen, dentists, tack checks etc etc he was finally pain free - but as  my vet said healing his body was the easy part, the mind would be a different matter. His remembered pain & learned behavior meant he just couldn't cope with accepting a rider, he'd try to contain his fear but it was like sitting on contained dynamite & when he blew, there was no going back. When my vet gave me sedative tablets to allow him to be ridden & let him realise it was ok, i had a good long think about it, binned the tablets, & retired him. I felt i'd failed - a very experienced behaviorist friend told me i'd succeeded because i knew when to stop before he killed himself, me, or someone else. He's been a very happy, relaxed & beautiful field ornament for about 10 years now.

I'd also agree with selling the mare & getting your daughters a safe first horse they can enjoy (& you can relax watching them ride!). Be honest with new owner - there's a site called Project Horse (i think a Facebook page of the same name) where people openly & honestly sell horses with quirks & issues, & buyers knowingly take on problems & projects - perhaps it maybe worth advertising her on there (although i'm not sure how active it is these days).

Good luck whatever you decide x


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## beerecco (22 July 2017)

Thanks for both your replies. I do think it's probably the time to see if we can find a home for her with someone more experienced. The girl who is schooling her doesn't see her as a problem horse - it does seem that the rearing was to do with the pain and did happen once again after she was brought back into work, but when she had the ulcers it had got to the stage when every time she was ridden she would go straight up. She hasn't reared since then and that's almost 6 weeks ago now. She's advising us to keep the mare and let the kids ride her - but I don't think I have the confidence in her to do that. 

In the school she is behaving really well now, tries to push the boundaries on the farm ride but that seems to be improving - but I think with the girls the behaviour might well recur and I can't imagine myself being relaxed about them riding out on the farm ride on their own so I do think she's not right for us. I will definitely tell any prospective purchaser about her background as I wish had happened when we bought her.  So hopefully we can find someone who can work with her like the person who's schooling her who's got the experience to know how to deal with her when she challenges her rider.


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## eatmyshorts (22 July 2017)

beerecco said:



			.... but I don't think I have the confidence in her to do that.
		
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That's the thing, you've hit the nail on the head there. Even if she's ok, you'll always worry rearing will be her go-to evasion should see disagree with something or if something hurts.


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## beerecco (24 July 2017)

eatmyshorts said:



			That's the thing, you've hit the nail on the head there. Even if she's ok, you'll always worry rearing will be her go-to evasion should see disagree with something or if something hurts.
		
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Your comment has turned out to be very accurate, and my mind is now made up finally. 

One of the reasons we have our horse stabled in this particular yard is that there are two local shows within walking distance, one right next door. We took her across to the showground yesterday morning as a friend was going with a few of hers and suggested that we see how our mare coped to help us make our mind up whether to persevere/loan her out or just sell. She was on her toes as we walked her across and more stressy once she got into the showground even though it was early in the morning and there were only a few people there. 

My friend has a young homebred WB x Connemara and being of an age where she no longer bounces on landing pays someone to ride him at shows as he can get pretty excited. This young lady got on ours for us to see how she would behave. I was so impressed that she managed to stay in the saddle - our mare tried all her best party tricks from rearing straight up, jumping sideways, bucking unexpectedly, etc, all interspersed with working beautifully. 

It was all the things she's thrown at the kids but more so as they haven't had the confidence or experience to keep asking - and I am glad they haven't pushed her harder than they did as there is no way they would have sat through the aftermath. 

So she's probably going away to be schooled by the girl who rode her yesterday morning and who thinks she can hopefully get her going to her best - as she was when we bought her, when she seemed like the nicest and most obliging horse in the world with three lovely paces, in the words of my oldest, the nicest canter ever,  and a lovely enthusiastic jump - and then we will put her up for sale. 

We will be clear about what's happened, and after yesterday I actually have some (unfortunately very poor quality) videos taken on my phone to show her at her most challenging if a potential buyer wants to see them. 

I hope that someone will want to take her on who can deal with her behaviour and see her potential. 

Now the hard work begins trying to persuade my husband that it hasn't been a complete waste of £10,000 (roughly what we've paid for the horse, livery and vet fees and that's not including what we will be paying out for schooling, livery etc.) and that hopefully it will be possible for us to find another horse for the kids that won't be pouring more money down the drain.


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## beerecco (20 August 2017)

Just had a message to say that the very experienced and competent rider who has been trying to bring her on for us had taken her to a show today and she reared and went over backwards on her. I haven't heard if she's ok after the initial message to say what had happened so very concerned.  Everyone who said we should sell her has certainly been proven right! But I don't think in all conscience we can even consider selling her as a ridden horse now. No idea what to do next. Is there any point in contacting the person who sold her to us again - although when I got in touch before she said she couldn't help me. 

 I was helping at a show yesterday and chatting with the course designer, she knew the person who sold the horse to us and advised me if someone sells 5 horses a year they are classed as a dealer, but at the same time not sure if I have any rights as I transferred the money direct to the former owner not to the yard owner. 

Now even my oldest daughter is saying maybe we shouldn't even consider getting another horse after this :-(


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## Leo Walker (20 August 2017)

beerecco said:



			Everyone who said we should sell her has certainly been proven right! But I don't think in all conscience we can even consider selling her as a ridden horse now. No idea what to do next.
		
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If I couldnt or didnt want to keep her permanently in retirement I would have her PTS. It wont be very nice for you, but it safeguards her and prevents anyone being killed or seriously injured. I've got a friend who is in a wheelchair and will never walk again after a horse went over backwards on her. Its the most dangerous thing a horse can do and once they learn it, its their go to. And no matter what you do or how you do it, if you pass this horse on someone will try and ride it again.


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## beerecco (20 August 2017)

OK - thank you. The same thought had occurred to me but it feels awful to think of putting a completely healthy horse to sleep. someone suggested blood donor so I would also like to consider that if she's big enough. Wish we had the land where we could keep her or enough money to keep her and another one.


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## Leo Walker (20 August 2017)

She isnt completely healthy. There is almost certainly an undiagnosed issue that causes the behaviour. Horses live in the now. They have no concept of the future. It is awful, but only for you. I would have it done where she is and I would have it done ASAP. If she comes back to you, it will be harder on you, you have a bit of distance at the moment. If you leave it to long you start to doubt yourself.

The blood bank might be an option. I'm not sure how long the waiting lists are or if she is suitable, but there is no harm in trying and then you know you have explored all the options.


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## ester (20 August 2017)

I think that while some seem to do it once and scare themselves not to do it again but the trouble is that even to do it once shows a staggering lack of self preservation. I do hope your rider is ok. And no, I don't think you should be selling her on. 

Re. the situation with the seller, it might be worth another thread but even with the clear cut cases after only a short period of time it can be a lot of work and end up messy. Having had the horse since January (?) now I think any recompense is unlikely at this stage.


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## MeltingSnowflake (20 August 2017)

I'm so sorry to hear it's turned out this way - but I think others here are right in that it may be best to PTS. You have a clear conscience that you really have tried everything - there's no reason to think that another owner would get different results.  Retiring her as a companion horse is an option, but people's circumstances change and she could well be sold on again.

I think the only way to preserve your clear conscience it to make sure that she doesn't hurt anyone in the future - and also that she doesn't end up being passed from place to place, eventually being shipped over to France for meat.  She's been treated well by you, let that be the happy end to her story.


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## Flyermc (20 August 2017)

What a horrible situation, i hope the rider is OK.

I think your a great owner, you've tried any awful lot to help her


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## scats (20 August 2017)

So sorry to hear this, I hope the rider is ok.

I would agree that this is not a horse to be sold on now and I would be tempted to put it to sleep.  Past experience of a friend selling a rearer and serial bucker on as a project (buyer knew the score), the horse was passed around several times, hurt someone, went through sales at least once and was never heard of again.  I just wish she had had it put to sleep.


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## beerecco (21 August 2017)

Hi everyone and many thanks again for all your advice. The very good news is that the rider is ok. I'm away from home for a little while and not very good at sending messages on my phone but to summarise my feelings: I agree that we don't want to send the mare off potentially into a situation where another person gets hurt or she's not looked after properly. A lot to think about.... for the next few days she will be out in the field with her buddies while we decide what to do next.


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## oldie48 (21 August 2017)

Pleased to hear that your rider is OK and that your daughters didn't get hurt riding this mare. There are some dishonest and unscrupulous people out there who will do anything to make money and I very much doubt that you will get anywhere with the dealer from whom you bought this mare, especially as quite a long time has passed. Clearly from your posts you have done everything you can for the mare and it's sad for all concerned that it hasn't worked out better. Please don't consider breeding from her or selling on as a brood mare, a mare's temperament is so important in producing nice foals and she doesn't sound suitable. Best wishes with whatever you  decide but IMHO there's worse things that can happen to a horse than being PTS.


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## scats (21 August 2017)

Also, I do hope this won't put you off horse ownership.  I've followed this whole thread from the beginning and you come across as the type of person who really deserves to have a lovely horse for you and your daughters to enjoy.

Good luck with whatever you decide for this mare.


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## npage123 (21 August 2017)

OP, I'm immensely impressed by your perseverance throughout all these months (which must have felt very challenging and upsetting at times) and having the best intentions to do what's right by the horse, taking into consideration all the numerous problems that's been cropping up.

Please do not read my post as a criticism to anything that you've done/haven't done, but rather just me writing down on the forum what this post has made me think of (as it's an open forum where people come up with all sorts of responses, quite often off topic, as I'm probably about to do now).

I'll start by saying that regarding the hacking - the napping, spinning around and desire to run back to the stables, is pretty much normal horse behaviour, unless the horse has been very patiently been taught that hacking on his own and leaving the herd is not as bad as they think it is.  Patience is a virtue.  It can take weeks or months to 'make it ok' for a horse to hack out on his own.  Leading a horse from the ground initially on the hacking route, then progressing to long-reining the horse along that route to build up his confidence (to be at the front and not follow a leader), only then getting a rider on board but with someone walking along and with a lead rope clipped to the bridle for safety, then doing the hacking alone.  (Obviously it would always be a much more pleasurable experience from a horse's point of view to be accompanied by other experienced and calm horses, to copy them and enjoy the experience rather than hacking out on his own and constantly having the inclination to get back to the stables and herd.) 

I was going reply sooner with an alternative thought but then decided to read through (most) of the other posts first.  I think only Morgan123 touched on the same sort of subject (going bitless).  I'm maybe going to be off-topic here considering recent developments but wanted to say my say all the same.

IMHO (not taking any medical problems into consideration) I think that your mare has possibly never been taught proper groundwork as a youngster, nor the concept of pressure and immediate release when the correct movement has been achieved.  It takes someone with an incredible amount of experience (a true professional, who knows that the only 'gadgets' that's needed is a basic halter and long read rein) to pick up the tiny little signals and cues that a horse gives when he is misunderstanding what is wanted from him, and also a special person to then react in such a way as to make it clear to the horse what he's told to do instead, i.e. to correct his behaviour.  

Horses are incredibly good at reading the handler's body position and movements (i.e. non-verbal communication) and will incredibly soon realise that when they try to dominate the handler and can get away with it, that that particular quick action is all that it takes to dominate the handler.  And that can then become an ingrained behaviour on the horse's part as he realises that every time that he does that specific thing or other dominant type of moves, he manages to MOVE THE TRAINER, instead of the trainer moving the horse.  If groundwork is done to perfection, then starting a horse is a straight-forward procedure, and can be done successfully bitless.  Initially in a small area where you won't be worried that the horse can maybe bolt and take off with you, and so that you can only concentrate on things like sitting in a neutral position, thinking about what your left or right hand is doing, thinking about your weight distribution, etc.

The first time anyone sits on the horse to start it - there's also a lot of clues and signs to look out for as to whether the horse is nervous about what's happening, if he's ready, and whether more time and patience is needed before the rider gets on. Things like flicking the tail (unless it's to get rid of flies), positioning the flank towards the rider, yanking the head up, pinning the ears back, moving backwards/sideways/forwards even before a foot is put in the stirrup, etc.

The horse is set up to 'a problem horse' when it comes to riding and the basics of groundwork hasn't been established.  If the concept of pressure and release hasn't been learnt properly, if during groundwork the horse won't flex their neck to the left or to the right with gentle one rein action to either the left or the right, if backing up with one cue word hasn't been achieved, and if walking forwards with a eg. a click and 'walk on' doesn't happen, then in most cases, you can't possibly expect the horse to understand what is asked from him when  being ridden for the first time.

I want to make it clear that I'm not saying that in your horse's case the correct training hasn't been given or that she's been treated harshly.  I don't know your mare's history and how she's been treated all of her life.  It's simply that this whole post has made me think about all these things.  Please don't see my post as a criticism on what you, your mare's trainers and riders have been doing through the years, as I wasn't there to see it all.  

I do believe that horses aren't born naughty.  Sure, they've got different personalities and some will be more cheeky and push their luck, and it's usually these ones who succeed in dominating humans and causing behaviour and ridden problems when allowed to get away with it.  And when ridden, even more problems are created when harsher bits are used over years and more gadgets are thrown in for good measure.  If a horse has learnt bad behaviour, he will eventually not feel the constant yanking and pulling in his mouth, the constant kicking kicking kicking, usually with spurs, doesn't mean anything other than pain.  Some horse become experts at assessing the rider from the first moment he lays eyes on them, and keep assessing the rider when the handling is being done whilst grooming and tacking up, and will try their usual tricks of bucking or rearing if they perceive that they can get rid of this human on his back when the same old incorrect riding techniques are being used. 

I'm very sorry for everything you and your kids have been going through.  I think you've already come to the decision that this mare is not the right one for you and your family, and I think most of the other posters feel the same way.  You've spent an incredible amount of time and money on this mare, but sometimes you've got to cut your losses and move on with things as this whole scenario must feel like such a long drawn-out nightmare for you and you're probably ready to start the next chapter in your horsey world.  I wish you the best of luck with whatever you decide to do.


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## Leo Walker (21 August 2017)

npage123 said:



			I'll start by saying that regarding the hacking - the napping, spinning around and desire to run back to the stables, is pretty much normal horse behaviour, unless the horse has been very patiently been taught that hacking on his own and leaving the herd is not as bad as they think it is.
		
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Its not. Not in any shape or form napping, spinning and rearing normal horse behaviour in any horse.

This is a mature, broken and established horse sold as suitable for a first horse, not a youngster or newly broken horse. I do agree that horses arent born naughty, But in my experience its pain that makes them naughty, not anything to do with dominance. Perhaps this wasnt the time and place for you to put your thoughts down.


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## npage123 (21 August 2017)

Leo Walker said:



			Its not. Not in any shape or form napping, spinning and rearing normal horse behaviour in any horse.

This is a mature, broken and established horse sold as suitable for a first horse, not a youngster or newly broken horse. I do agree that horses arent born naughty, But in my experience its pain that makes them naughty, not anything to do with dominance. Perhaps this wasnt the time and place for you to put your thoughts down.
		
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Re-reading that quote of mine again, I don't think I've worded it properly.  What I meant to say was that if a youngster is made to leave their herd for the first time, their instinct to stay with the herd is very strong and they'd want to rejoin the herd, and in the wrong trainer's hands this could lead to undesirable behaviour on the horse's part if not dealt with correctly.

I've tried to make it clear that I was going 'off topic' and if anyone disagree with anything that I've said, then that's fine.  Everyone is entitled to their opinion.  

I realise that the OP's mare is mature and established in her ways, but all the posts that I've read has made me think about the very first training of the horse and where problems potentially could start, hence the reason for jotting down all my thoughts.

OP, if my post has upset you in any way or you feel it was inappropriate of me to ramble on about stuff in general, then I truly apologise as upsetting you was the last thing that I wanted to do.


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## be positive (21 August 2017)

npage123 said:



			Re-reading that quote of mine again, I don't think I've worded it properly.  What I meant to say was that if a youngster is made to leave their herd for the first time, their instinct to stay with the herd is very strong and they'd want to rejoin the herd, and in the wrong trainer's hands this could lead to undesirable behaviour on the horse's part if not dealt with correctly.

I've tried to make it clear that I was going 'off topic' and if anyone disagree with anything that I've said, then that's fine.  Everyone is entitled to their opinion.  

I realise that the OP's mare is mature and established in her ways, but all the posts that I've read has made me think about the very first training of the horse and where problems potentially could start, hence the reason for jotting down all my thoughts.

OP, if my post has upset you in any way or you feel it was inappropriate of me to ramble on about stuff in general, then I truly apologise as upsetting you was the last thing that I wanted to do.
		
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A youngster will possibly protest about leaving the herd, if it was in one which many are not, but it is not asked to leave the herd and go out for a ride on day 1, it is conditioned to leave by being brought in, doing some work then going back out over a period of time, usually years as very few youngsters live out 24/7 in large herds most will come in at some point to be stabled overnight for some of the winter, have regular hoof care, some may be sold on well before they are backed and learn that there is life outside. 

I don't disagree with all you wrote but there were a fair few assumptions and generalisations that may or may not be appropriate and are certainly beyond the control of the OP, any horse can go wrong at any stage of it's life, if well started it is less likely to but if pain is involved then training is not the only answer and with the OP's horse it is well past the stage where the average trainer can help, they have tried but do not have the experience or resources to keep going with what is proving to be a very difficult and potentially dangerous horse, I think if they decide to pts that is the responsible thing to do and that they deserve credit for not passing her on to an uncertain future, I wish more people would be brave enough to do this.


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## npage123 (21 August 2017)

be positive said:



			A youngster will possibly protest about leaving the herd, if it was in one which many are not, but it is not asked to leave the herd and go out for a ride on day 1, it is conditioned to leave by being brought in, doing some work then going back out over a period of time, usually years as very few youngsters live out 24/7 in large herds most will come in at some point to be stabled overnight for some of the winter, have regular hoof care, some may be sold on well before they are backed and learn that there is life outside. 

I agree with this and you've said it better than I could have.  I definitely didn't mean that a youngster are just brought in and hacked out on day 1.  A lot of my post was about the importance of good groundwork with lots of patience, prior to riding. 
Have sent OP a PM.
		
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## Leo Walker (21 August 2017)

npage123 said:



			Re-reading that quote of mine again, I don't think I've worded it properly.  I've tried to make it clear that I was going 'off topic' and if anyone disagree with anything that I've said, then that's fine.  Everyone is entitled to their opinion.  

I realise that the OP's mare is mature and established in her ways, but all the posts that I've read has made me think about the very first training of the horse and where problems potentially could start, hence the reason for jotting down all my thoughts.

OP, if my post has upset you in any way or you feel it was inappropriate of me to ramble on about stuff in general, then I truly apologise as upsetting you was the last thing that I wanted to do.
		
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Your thoughts would make an interesting post of their own, but not on a thread where someone is trying to make a decision that might ultimately end up with the horse PTS. Perhaps I'm being too sensitive as it feels like yesterday I lost mine and had to listen to a couple people telling me their thought and opinions. It make an horrifically difficult situation much worse.


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## beerecco (21 August 2017)

Hello everyone,

I'm feeling bad that my initial post has led to a bit of stress on the forum. I am really touched at the number of people who've taken the time to give me advice on this topic and that youve been so considerate of my feelings. 'Npage123' contacted me offlist to reassure me that there wasn't any criticism intended and I believe that is the case - although I did initially feel defensive but rereading could see it was more a reflection on the poor starts some animals might have.

I have thought off and on since we got the mare that she didn't look very happy to be ridden for whatever reason. I mentioned the ethogram(?) for detecting pain in horses through facial expression (developed I think by the animal health trust) to our vet and he pooh-poohed it, but most of the time I think her facial expression looks tense or pained when she is being ridden. Although I've oscillated on this, and I'm sure some of it is probably established behaviour, it does feel that there is maybe more going on. 

So (and apologies noage123 as this is copied and pasted from what I sent to you) I've now arranged a physio appointment for our mare and will also get the tack rechecked as I don't want to do anything as definite as putting her to sleep if there is another option. It might be that we are in a position to get a place with a bit of land in the medium term where she could live as a companion but that is far from definite and probably not something that I should even be considering but I just want to explore all the options anyway. 

A huge thank you to everyone who gallantly leapt to my defence, I hate to be the cause of disharmony so wanted to say thanks and that I am ok, especially now that we have a bit of a plan, that nobody is going to be putting themselves in danger by sitting on her, and that we are definitely going to give her the best possible chance. And even more so that the rider is not much the worse for wear!

If there is a happy outcome and the physio finds something that might be the root of the problem I will let you know. Thanks again everyone for being so supportive.


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## beerecco (21 August 2017)

Leo Walker said:



			It feels like yesterday I lost mine and had to listen to a couple people telling me their thought and opinions. It make an horrifically difficult situation much worse.
		
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Making the decision to PTS an obviously infirm and probably suffering cat or dog is something I found hugely painful so I'm sure you're right if it comes to that with a horse who seems healthy and enjoying life it will feel unbearable. I'm still hoping it might not come to that. It must be so much worse when you've really built a bond with the horse. :-( I really hope that the pain becomes less over time.


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## npage123 (21 August 2017)

Leo Walker said:



			Your thoughts would make an interesting post of their own, but not on a thread where someone is trying to make a decision that might ultimately end up with the horse PTS. Perhaps I'm being too sensitive as it feels like yesterday I lost mine and had to listen to a couple people telling me their thought and opinions. It make an horrifically difficult situation much worse.
		
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I apologise for my 1st long post and you are right, it wasn't the time or the place to post it.  

I'm very sorry that you've had to deal with a difficult PTS situation, and that my post has brought back memories of it.  It's one of the most difficult things in life to deal with and I feel awful that I've caused you to relive some of the grieve.


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## npage123 (21 August 2017)

be positive said:



			A youngster will possibly protest about leaving the herd, if it was in one which many are not, but it is not asked to leave the herd and go out for a ride on day 1, it is conditioned to leave by being brought in, doing some work then going back out over a period of time, usually years as very few youngsters live out 24/7 in large herds most will come in at some point to be stabled overnight for some of the winter, have regular hoof care, some may be sold on well before they are backed and learn that there is life outside. 

I don't disagree with all you wrote but there were a fair few assumptions and generalisations that may or may not be appropriate and are certainly beyond the control of the OP, any horse can go wrong at any stage of it's life, if well started it is less likely to but if pain is involved then training is not the only answer and with the OP's horse it is well past the stage where the average trainer can help, they have tried but do not have the experience or resources to keep going with what is proving to be a very difficult and potentially dangerous horse, I think if they decide to pts that is the responsible thing to do and that they deserve credit for not passing her on to an uncertain future, I wish more people would be brave enough to do this.
		
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I've always respected your posts in the past and yet again you are the voice of reason.  Like Leo Walker said, it wasn't the right time or place for my post.  I've already privately apologised to the OP for my inappropriate post and gone into more detail about my reasons for doing so.  

I don't mind apologising on here publicly too that my post was inappropriate and sorry if I p**sed people off or hurt them in any way by posting anything insensitive.  

Be Positive, thank you for coming to the OP's defence as she deserves all the support she can get.  If I was able to, I would have turned back time posted a completely different post, one with only compassion, praise and admiration for OP's dedication and the incredible amount of time and money spent to try and get to the bottom of the mare's problems.


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## Leo Walker (21 August 2017)

npage123 said:



			I apologise for my 1st long post and you are right, it wasn't the time or the place to post it.  

I'm very sorry that you've had to deal with a difficult PTS situation, and that my post has brought back memories of it.  It's one of the most difficult things in life to deal with and I feel awful that I've caused you to relive some of the grieve.
		
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Its ok, its part of it, Facebook memories like to kick on an almost daily basis at the minute! 

I think you have been very gracious and gone out of your way to make sure you put things right and behaved much better than I do usually. So apology accepted, and I'm sorry if I upset you in anyway.


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## Chinchilla (21 August 2017)

OP how are things going? Any updates? Hope things are better for yours, your girls' and the mare's sake, sounds like you've gone above and beyond for this horse. Really admire you for that x


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## be positive (21 August 2017)

npage123 said:



			I've always respected your posts in the past and yet again you are the voice of reason.  Like Leo Walker said, it wasn't the right time or place for my post.  I've already privately apologised to the OP for my inappropriate post and gone into more detail about my reasons for doing so.  

I don't mind apologising on here publicly too that my post was inappropriate and sorry if I p**sed people off or hurt them in any way by posting anything insensitive.  

Be Positive, thank you for coming to the OP's defence as she deserves all the support she can get.  If I was able to, I would have turned back time posted a completely different post, one with only compassion, praise and admiration for OP's dedication and the incredible amount of time and money spent to try and get to the bottom of the mare's problems.
		
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I think your post was done with the best intentions and there was a lot of sense in it, most horses are made or ruined by their early training  and in many cases your post would have been helpful but in this case I felt it inappropriate because the OP is a novice owner, not even a rider, had bought a so called schoolmaster and had no influence on what had happened at any stage of it's training, has had some professional input and is not in the position to do much more in the circumstances. 

I don't think you need to feel bad, you have apologised to the OP which was not really necessary as your post was not really a personal criticism it was just the wrong thread to air your views, maybe start a new one in C&T to get a debate going that is interesting and can get some thoughts from everyone.

I think the OP is in a really difficult position, novice owners, very tricky horse, not sure how experienced the yard is but they are doing all they can in the circumstances to try and do the best for the horse which may well have been seriously let down in the past, most horses that have a "history" get passed on without ever being given a chance and the OP is trying her utmost to do all she can, many people would have sent it off to a dealer without a second thought, maybe they will find the key and turn this one around.


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## beerecco (22 August 2017)

Diva&Rosie'sMum said:



			OP how are things going? Any updates? Hope things are better for yours, your girls' and the mare's sake, sounds like you've gone above and beyond for this horse. Really admire you for that x
		
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Thanks for getting in touch, no news yet, but I'll update the post when there is anything! Thanks everyone for being so kind and supportive, it means a lot.


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## Chinchilla (22 August 2017)

beerecco said:



			Thanks for getting in touch, no news yet, but I'll update the post when there is anything! Thanks everyone for being so kind and supportive, it means a lot.
		
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Okay thank you for the reply  Hope everyone stays safe and happy for the time being. 

Just a thought - instead of having horse PTS if it doesn't get better have you considered using horses4homes to try and rehome as a non ridden companion, or surrendering to a rescue/sanctuary? 

This thread has made me fervently wish I had the time and space and finances to set up a refuge for horses like yours where they could just chill for the rest of their lives - I know you're not sure what's going on, though, and I do hope you find out what, purely for your own peace of mind. x If I had my own land I'd say bring her over to me to be a pampered field ornament!!


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## beerecco (22 August 2017)

She would make a good field ornament - she's very pretty and very good in all ways but ridden! 

Heading to the wilds of Scotland early tomorrow and not sure if I will have internet access so I definitely won't be updating the post for a while.... hope you all have a good few days.


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## Tiddlypom (22 August 2017)

Diva&Rosie'sMum said:



			Just a thought - instead of having horse PTS if it doesn't get better have you considered using horses4homes to try and rehome as a non ridden companion, or surrendering to a rescue/sanctuary?
		
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Argghh, no, no, no.

If rehomed as a non ridden companion, then sooner or later someone will have a go at riding her again.

Rescues are full to overflowing with genuine cruelty and neglect cases, so they are very unlikely to take her on.


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## Chinchilla (23 August 2017)

Tiddlypom said:



			Argghh, no, no, no.

If rehomed as a non ridden companion, then sooner or later someone will have a go at riding her again.

Rescues are full to overflowing with genuine cruelty and neglect cases, so they are very unlikely to take her on.
		
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It was just a suggestion to avoid a nice sounding horse having to be PTS. Via horses4homes a permanent loan contract is drawn up stating whether horse can/cannot be ridden and it's not allowed to go against it; surely life as a pasture pet is much preferable to being PTS if it can be avoided? If it can't then I agree euthanasia is  best to horse being needlessly passed from pillar to post. 
Horse might actually be suitable for driving or horse agility as well though I don't really know enough about those to comment.


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## Flyermc (2 December 2017)

how are you getting on beerecco?


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## beerecco (5 December 2017)

Well - she is still with us. It turned out the saddle was a very poor fit (away too big so would have been lying wrong and causing pressure in the wrong places, poor thing) so that would have been causing her pain every time someone sat on her. We had a smaller saddle fitted to her, but although this definitely improved the situation, although we thought for a while she was sorted, when she went into a busy environment the behaviour recurred (although not as extreme) so we are wondering if it was a combination of stress and remembered pain. At the moment we're wondering if it might work to restart her from scratch - it's been suggested to us that this might work especially if the issue is remembered pain associated with being ridden in ill fitting tack and we feel like it would be better to give her the chance if possible, rather than PTS if it can be avoided.


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## xxKatxx (5 December 2017)

Have you thought about getting her some physiotherapy? When my guys have had saddles that have stopped fitting they've had residual muscle soreness on their backs that was caused by the badly fitting saddles, so when we've had new saddles/saddles altered we've always got their backs checked by a physio at the same time to make sure that they aren't still sore and treat anything that's still there!

ACPAT registered physios do need a referral from a vet in order to treat, but I've always found the vets are happy to refer if you know you've had a badly fitting saddle!


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## beerecco (5 December 2017)

She has had physiotherapy, in fact she's seen two now to check, they couldn't find any issues or soreness. but thanks for the suggestion.


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## xxKatxx (5 December 2017)

That's fab if she's got a fitting saddle and clear from the physio, at least you're starting from a good point for those if you do go down the re-backing route. I was in a very similar situation with my first horse  as a teenager, which was due to a combination of pain issues and some issues that weren't really disclosed when buying her that made her not really a suitable first horse candidate (one being that she was absolutely terrified of cars), and then the issues being exacerbated by novice riding/handling!

After treating the lameness issues, we found a very supportive instructor, who specialised in more unconventional horses, and we went down a re-education route with her, completely re-teaching her manners on the ground, and then progressed this gradually to under saddle. It was a very slow process for a long time, due to me being a novice rider at the time, but she is great now. It wasn't as far as completely re-backing, but it was definitely a re-education for her. 

At times, there were points when the behaviour re-occured, and looking back now, I probably would have been faster to check saddles/back when this had happened- at one point she was having her saddle adjusted every couple months, followed by a physio check to check for soreness,  and the behaviour was still there and the physio was still finding soreness- after 3 times of this, we changed saddle fitters  and got a new saddle, and she returned to normal. 

So i guess my point is there is often light at the end of the tunnel, even if it takes a lot of false starts to get there! Probably the most important thing for me was to get the right help with her, so she was re-educated in the right way, as well as being more pro-active in keeping on top of things that could be niggling at her xx


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## beerecco (5 December 2017)

Thanks, that is really encouraging. I wish we had checked the saddle way earlier but we didn't but at the same time, the saddle fitter thought it had been ill fitting for a long time probably before she came to us, and I think her issues were well established. Well done to you for sticking with it and sorting your horse out.


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## npage123 (5 December 2017)

It's shocking that there are so many saddlers out there that get away with selling ill-fitting saddles.  Even made-to-measure saddles sometimes fit completely wrong.  A friend of mine paid good money for what was supposed to be a nice new fitting made-to-measure saddle, but it transpired that it was a really bad job.  On top of the initial payment, she had to pay him twice more to come and make further adjustments - and it was still not fitting well.  She sold it in the end.  I really hope that you've managed to find a saddler that does a good job and best wishes with the re-training of the horse.


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## beerecco (6 December 2017)

Thank you! I think it's going to be a long time before we know whether we are on the right lines, probably a few months, but I'll update when I feel like we know one way or another whether things are working out.


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## Flyermc (6 December 2017)

thanks for the update, hope it works out


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## Flyermc (19 May 2018)

Beerecco, how are you getting on?


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## JJS (19 May 2018)

Hope it's all going the right way now, OP


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## beerecco (28 May 2018)

Hi everyone, thanks for thinking of me and sorry for the belated reply! 

Our mare has gone to a new home, in December she went to a very experienced lady on loan for her to decide whether she could work with her. She'd had similar horses before and wanted a challenge. It's been hit and miss with some really positive days and some where she was back to her old ways but they have really bonded and she decided she wants to keep her, which is a huge relief. I felt that if it didn't work out with her we would have to probably PTS and I would have really struggled to bring myself to do it as she was young and the vets could find no health issues with her, plus she seemed to have quality of life, but not being in a position to keep her unless the girls stopped riding because we can't afford to keep two at the moment, I felt pretty torn.

We've got a lovely gelding who is a very green 7 year old, he has had the girls off more times than I can count but through his inexperience jumping or excitement at galloping in a group or something rather than feeling that his aim in life is to stop them riding him. He just waits for them to climb back on! He's spent most of his time in a field or occasionally hacking before he came to us so they're learning together. He's a sweetie and we all love him, and I feel happy with them going off for a hack/a jumping session without spending the whole time on tenterhooks wondering what's going to happen. 

In a lot of ways he's much less straightforward as he's been schooled whereas our mare, when she behaved, was well schooled and responsive. But I feel that his nature is completely different and I'm so happy we found him.


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