# Vibes for me... Am about to get nasty and violent :(



## Queenbee (3 October 2012)

We always know the time will come with youngsters... at some point or another they will test us in some way... well that time has come.  Ben is being evil.  He has suddenly turned into a nasty thing... gradually getting worse.  Its general handling, bloshy, ears back, threatening behaviour... then the last straw was yesterday when I turned him out and he acted like a git... turned and reared.  I could see he was going to have to step back into the electric fence so I had to drop the rope... standing in front of him would have had me flattened.  As I dropped the rope he did step back into the fence, he got shocked, kicked out, caught himself in the fence (rope type) and broke 4 wodden posts as thick as my calf muscles!  He is unhurt mores the pity!  I spoke to the woman who backed him for me, and unfortunately it would appear that the method is old hat and simple... I actually agree with her, just needed to hear it.  He needs a pasting.  He is now, rude, stroppy big and inconsiderate... on the verge of becoming dangerous... apparently this is what happens if I give ben a rest (he doesn't like not being ridden now he knows what fun it is!)  I know that if I leave it too long the threat will become a kick, the 2 ft rear will become full up and boxing.  He is to be led in a chiffney, and one foot wrong, he is to be 'reprimanded fully' I am also to behave like I don't like him for a week or so because at hear he is a wuss and craves 'being liked'.  I am not a 'hitter' but I wont stand this behaviour without repercussions for him.  Just need to psych myself up for it.  Spoke with Aunty G tonight... and said that I wouldn't pick a fight with him when the yard was busy as it will go on until he backs down.  She has been incredibly supportive and told me everyone will understand, no one will judge.  Please give me any inspiration for getting into my dominatrix role. x


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## rockysmum (3 October 2012)

Sending vibes for you, I know what its like.

As for whether you are right to take this course of action - cant say.

I wouldn't, as if it becomes out and out confrontation you are likely to loose.

Then again I dont have a better idea, and I'm getting more cowardly as I get older, so good luck with that.


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## Dave282B (3 October 2012)

Please be careful


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## asommerville (3 October 2012)

i too am not a hitter or a shouter but having a young horse myself i have found that one hard lesson is a lot morr effective than a lot of littld 'oh please dont' sessions.  good luck


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## jeeve (3 October 2012)

I have found that if they are silly, you get them busy, lots of yielding, backing up, lunge on a circle, ask for a change of direction, every half to 1 circle, and they soon stop being silly and start listening to you. Especially if being silly means work, and being good means they get to relax and chill out.


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## flirtygerty (3 October 2012)

Breathe deep, tell yourself it's for the best and do it, I hit my lad for the first time in 3 yrs of having him, he had been bolshy several times with a 10 yr old girl, (he's 9) and just set his neck and walked back to the barn while she was bathing him, he got walloped with the lead rope and well and truly shouted at, funnily enough, he's been on his best behaviour since.
Good luck


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## asommerville (3 October 2012)

oh yeah and i dont think youll find your being 'nasty and violent' just firm! if horses arent used to being spoken to loudly even raising your voice a little bit will make him go 'eek mums not happy!'


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## HBM1 (3 October 2012)

I have no advice at all - none of mine have ever acted this way and I have youngsters and have had one from birth to 7 years, birth to 3 years etc....I can't see how this will work though as I worry he will get even more angry or whatever he gets, lash out and you are just far too weedy in comparison to a horse to survive it in tact.
Do you know why he is doing this?  Assume you will have already looked at his feed regime.


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## SadKen (3 October 2012)

weirdly i am also at this conundrum and was wondering whether to post! my lad decided to push for the alpha role this evening by barging when asked for trot on lead. when i reprimanded him (clicked fingers, 'NO!) he tried to nip me. when i said no to that and flicked him with the lead rein, he struck out with hisffront foot. my escalation of reprimand did nothibg but make him worse. when we finished up he spooked all the way back to the stable.

i don't think a pasting will work so am going to try keeping him on a lunge cavesson and sending him away from me when he acts up. but do feel very upset and a little scared! hope you find a way forward op... do be careful as others have said.

sorry for rubbish spelling, my phone has gone crazy!


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## spike123 (3 October 2012)

jeeve said:



			I have found that if they are silly, you get them busy, lots of yielding, backing up, lunge on a circle, ask for a change of direction, every half to 1 circle, and they soon stop being silly and start listening to you. Especially if being silly means work, and being good means they get to relax and chill out.
		
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This and firm consistent handling will achieve far more than out and out picking a fight with a dominant horse. My horse is the sort to fight back and will not back down to aggression but face it with even more aggression. Unfortunately with a bolshy horse you have to be in charge so that they respect you and not so that they hate you even more or are scared of you!


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## HBM1 (3 October 2012)

could be something in the air in general! My almost 4 month old colt foal for the first time ever today in the field started his airs above the ground and feign rearing at me.  He got a rubber skip in the chest and growled at when he wouldn't listen to me and lots of affection and scratches when he came up politely.  It was hard to tell him off as inside I was thinking "damn he looks good when he turns it on" !  But he can't know that....I have never had it with the older ones though...I do agree with making them work more when they do it and speaking in much harsher tones.


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## Cocorules (3 October 2012)

Agree with spike. I cannot believe you would seriously consider doing this. Get some proper non violent help in to work through this.


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## Queenbee (3 October 2012)

rockysmum said:



			Sending vibes for you, I know what its like.

As for whether you are right to take this course of action - cant say.

I wouldn't, as if it becomes out and out confrontation you are likely to loose.

Then again I dont have a better idea, and I'm getting more cowardly as I get older, so good luck with that.
		
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Thank you  it is never ever my first course of action and I have tried many tactics I know, my YO is one of the most respected horsewomen around and this is not normally her attitude either.  My trainer who backed him is not known for being 'a softy' but she too tried other methods, I knew he would have tested her, especially since he was sooooo good when he came home, to me.  I trust her, in that I know her reactions will be measured and appropriate so if he was hit, I know she would have had a reason.  That is why I called her, she told me they had had a point at which she had to take a crop to him, he was nasty and challenging... I know this can be his nature on the ground... she told me it worked and from the horse I took home it obviously did, which gives me confidence to do it... one good thing is that she reitterated his softy side, in that he quickly wimps out of his challenge of authority if you front up to him this way and his behavour settles almost straight away.


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## Queenbee (3 October 2012)

jeeve said:



			I have found that if they are silly, you get them busy, lots of yielding, backing up, lunge on a circle, ask for a change of direction, every half to 1 circle, and they soon stop being silly and start listening to you. Especially if being silly means work, and being good means they get to relax and chill out.
		
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yeah, going to do that, but if he is a xyz on the ground again he is going to get it... and charlie chiffney is coming back out to play with him...


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## The mad TB (3 October 2012)

Conn used to be a nightmare so I got a dually and did a ton of ground work with him, now when I walk into his space, unless I say, he'll move backwards and out of my way.

I used to carry a short whip (like a jumping crop) and if he barged past whilst ignoring the headcollar he would get a tap, funnily enough I never had to ask twice!


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## Queenbee (3 October 2012)

flirtygerty said:



			Breathe deep, tell yourself it's for the best and do it, I hit my lad for the first time in 3 yrs of having him, he had been bolshy several times with a 10 yr old girl, (he's 9) and just set his neck and walked back to the barn while she was bathing him, he got walloped with the lead rope and well and truly shouted at, funnily enough, he's been on his best behaviour since.
Good luck
		
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thank you!  When I bought him, I always told myself to keep him emotionally at a distance cause I knew this day would come... I told myself yesterday when I drove away from the carnage to stop thinking about him as my horse, and start thinking about him as a horse... how would I treat him if he belonged to someone else and I was asked to 'deal with this' or advise on it... I didn't think I was being to soft with him, but I obviously was, probably because I have recently lost ebony

Unfortunately one hit wont do it... it will take something like this 'hit, buck, hit, kick, hit, kick, hit bum, hit, kick, hit, flat ears, hit, flat ears, hit, nothing... unfortunately that is what we are talking about, he is very challenging before he concedes... dominatrix outfit needed!


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## sophiebailey (3 October 2012)

My twenty year old was becoming very bargey at feed time snd would nip at me as I was putting out the hay, I had enough of asking nicely so one day last winter I turned around from the wheel barrow, boshed him one on the nose and screamed 'this is myyyy hayyyyyyyy!' While rushing at him flapping my arms, he's never nipped since! Its how they're put in their place in the herd, so ya gotsta be herd leader unfortunatley and give him the equivilent of a good kicking! Good luck xxx


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## sophiebailey (3 October 2012)

P.S; not advising animal abuse, just enough of a stinger that he gets the message, that last post makes me sound like a horse-beater!  I don't beat my horse he just got a bosh on the nose that once! Honest officer!


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## Karran (3 October 2012)

sophiebailey said:



			I had enough of asking nicely so one day last winter I turned around from the wheel barrow, boshed him one on the nose and screamed* 'this is myyyy hayyyyyyyy!'* While rushing at him flapping my arms, he's never nipped since!
		
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I know its really wrong but this made me giggle uncontrollably


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## Queenbee (3 October 2012)

HBM1 said:



			I have no advice at all - none of mine have ever acted this way and I have youngsters and have had one from birth to 7 years, birth to 3 years etc....I can't see how this will work though as I worry he will get even more angry or whatever he gets, lash out and you are just far too weedy in comparison to a horse to survive it in tact.
Do you know why he is doing this?  Assume you will have already looked at his feed regime.
		
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yes, he is currently on grass and hay... thats it apart from a himalayan salt lick.  He is in at day and out at night, but this is not the issue... he kicks off if he isn't the first in, he also has ad lib hay in field.  We lost ebony earlier this year... but I think the route cause is that he is now a working horse and if not ridden everyday he gets moody... I was poorly for a week and moody became challenging, became 'i think Im boss   Aunty G is one of the most respected horsewomen in cornwall and he is even pushing her... I know that this will work because it has done... and it has to... other methods haven't and I would rather him have a bit of a beating for want of a better word than hurt himself, a person, or become completely unhandlable by inaction


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## maccachic (3 October 2012)

Has he got someone in the paddock he can play with?  My 2 year old started doing this and if I got the lunge whip out it became even more of a game to him.  I stuck him in with my older gelding and he was fine from then on as he had someone he could interact with and would put him in his place.

I think firm, consistent and fair is the way to bring up a young horse stick to the rules consistently and remediate when needed.  I don't use whips etc when riding these days I find voice works better however if behaviour becomes dangerous I will use what ever I have on hand to correct it my life is too precious to be nice, a couple of feed buckets thrown at offensive behaviour normally nips it i the bud pretty quickly.


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## Queenbee (3 October 2012)

spike123 said:



			This and firm consistent handling will achieve far more than out and out picking a fight with a dominant horse. My horse is the sort to fight back and will not back down to aggression but face it with even more aggression. Unfortunately with a bolshy horse you have to be in charge so that they respect you and not so that they hate you even more or are scared of you!
		
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unfortunately I would normally agree with you, but the 2 women I respect most, with years and hundreds of horses experience between them are in agreement with my feeling, hat, lungeline, lunge whip, reprimand when steps out of line and chiffney or bit at all times... I would rather not do it, but from experience, Trainer says it only took one session and he was fab after... rather go in hard and fast with him than mediocre and have it escillate.


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## orionstar (3 October 2012)

After watching my 6 year old in the field with a very bolshy two year old it has made me wish I had the same lightening teeth and back feet that she does. Be careful and good luck with it!


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## maccachic (3 October 2012)

If he has been under saddle for a while since backing, maybe it is time for a spell?


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## Queenbee (3 October 2012)

maccachic said:



			If he has under saddle for a bit since backing maybe it is time for a spell.
		
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No, not really, he has been off for 3 weeks, and got worse and worse with every day... its the lack of work that is the problem he despises being idle... but regardless of that I will not have bad manners.  They are all separated in individual paddocks but he does get put in school with a mate occasionally for a play... untill his time off though he was completely chilled in his field, happy as a pig in mud... I need to work him but I want to get his ground manners nsorted first!


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## Louby (4 October 2012)

I went through a similar time with my 4 yr old.  He was running backwards, into anything, cars, fences etc.  I tried sitting there, turning whilst going backwards, all the nicey nicey approaches until he ditched me with a massive buck whilst running backwards and I tore my ligaments in my shoulder and ended up in A&E as I thought Id broke something, just because he didnt want to go in the school. 
I asked a friend who had experienced similar and she said sorry but you need to sit this out once and for all, you need to give him a crack or 3 and send him forward.  He has to go forwards, so armed with body proitector and basically bobbing myself, I did it, just one hard whack and that was it, he was so shocked, he shot forwards and never did it again.
Im not saying hes perfect, hes a git, opinionated and a face puller but hes now 13 and has never ran backwards since.
Be careful and good luck.


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## Pale Rider (4 October 2012)

I've not read the replies, not interested.

The advice you have been given is appalling.

Beat him up if you must, but be ashamed.


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## Pale Rider (4 October 2012)

Good luck with it, 

It won't work


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## Queenbee (4 October 2012)

No probably not pr... What do u suggest... Tickle him under the chin? U don't know him, or me, or his character, or the people that know him and have suggested what I was already thinking. Tbh I don't think much of ur posts I've seen them before. I'm not generally an advocate for such methods but he needs to lose an argument and learn his place in the pecking order again. And it has worked with him before, so y wont it work now?  Each horse has to be handled according to their own attitude and behaviour, I wouldn't have dreamed of this approach with ebony... He is not Ebs, doesn't mean I don't care about him, but I won't have him as a danger to himself and others. If that means he has to feel the whip as a shock tactic... I can live with that, I couldn't live with him hurting someone though


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## madhoss (4 October 2012)

I completely understand where you are coming from, but I think the preparing for a fight and giving him a pasting will only lead to more issues- he's a horse you won't win. 

Being smarter, quicker and reprimanding just once but at the right time will be far more effective than repeatedly hitting and shouting. 

E.g. The first time my youngster bit me I was prepared as I knew it was coming- I bopped her straight back, hard and fast- I think with horses you have to try to be as quick as an electric fence for them to learn. Because I'd been prepared for this, I was very quick in reprimanding her and consequently that was the first and last time she has bitten me in two years. 

Likewise, she reared one day whilst being led. The next day, I took a schooling  whip and when she went to do it again I hit her across the belly. It surprised her and she hasn't done it since. At no point have I had to get angry or shout or repeatedly hit and smack but she has learnt lessons calmly and well.


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## JennBags (4 October 2012)

QB if you've already made your mind up on the advice of 2 knowledgeable & highly respected horsewomen, I don't understand why you've posted asking for advice?

There are the types of horses that are just trying it on & need a good smack to be put in their place, such as the ones described by sophiebailey and madhoss.

Then there are the ones that are truly dominant & need a different approach, which is what Ben sounds like. You need to get his trust & respect, you need to be the herd leader, and beating him into submission is not, IMO, the way to do it. 

You say it has worked before so why not again? Because its a temporary fix, and the more you do this, each time he goes back, the worse he will be and you will end up with a dangerous horse who can't be handled at all. 

I think Jeeve & Spike have got it right, you need to re-establish your herd leader status with lots of moving him round on a small circle, stopping him, changing direction (using your body language), backing him up, using the stick as a threat but not actually hitting him with it, from what you've described, I think hitting him will make him rebel far worse. Its difficult to describe exactly what I mean, it's almost an IH approach but without the softly-softly part of it. When you're moving him round, you need to be physically firm until he starts listening to your body language, it's important to get that right too. 

Good luck


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## rockysmum (4 October 2012)

JennBags said:



			QB if you've already made your mind up on the advice of 2 knowledgeable & highly respected horsewomen, I don't understand why you've posted asking for advice?

Good luck 

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She didn't

She asked for vibes from us, the only advice she asked for was how to get herself to actually do it.  At no point in the OP did she doubt it was right.


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## ladyt25 (4 October 2012)

I agree with Jennbags - there's firm and authoritative handling and then there's beating and the latter rarely works. I have lost my rag with my older horse on occasion when he barges out of his stable and that has stopped him doing it again (that time) but he will still do it the next day and the next!

I have a bolshy 3 and a half yo gelding - not backed yet - and yes he's had an elbow in his face when he's gone for a nip but then he's always been a bit of a biter and he generally gets an elbow 'block' and we just carry on. I praise him for good behaviour and I am firm with him when he tries to leg it when being lead - I 'won' a particular battle like this the other day as he tried to tank off - he got a sharp tug on the rope (a bit of a growl) and I was not going to let go (I spun him round). I knew if I let him go then that'd be it and he'd have learnt a new 'trick'. After me winning this he lead pretty nicely the rest of the way.

He has never (so far) reared up but he has thrown himself about in all sorts of contortions andin the main I just try remain calm, ignore it to some degree other than a sharp tug on his headcollar/rope and I'll back him up out of my space. I have had some very helpful advice from a trainer near me though who is a bit NHish but very firm and fair. She doesn't take any crap from horses but she says the behaviour is all down to what WE have taught them. A horse isn't stubborn, evil, scheming, she says essentially they're not awfully bright! lol.

She has worked with many difficult horses and the techniques are pretty much the same - clear commands and repetitive training essentially. Shame she's not nearer to you as she would probably be able to help you.

Good luck with however you go forward.


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## siennamum (4 October 2012)

I don't expect Op means she will buy a new whip and start beating her horse to be fair. I suspect the agenda is now going to change and her horse will be going through a period of tough love.
I think it is fairly normal for a bright young horse to test the boundaries. You can faff about for months giving mixed signals and getting your horse to moondance all over the yard, or you can use body language, a loud voice, a stick/lead rein/ bucket - or whatever is to hand, to get the bugger out of your space, and demand some respect, in a couple of 5 minute sessions.

I have had a few similar phases with youngsters OP, to a greater or lesser degree, one thing I absolutely demand - by any means, is that when I advance and say BACK, they go back, preferably while saluting. Sounds like you have great support at home, I'd crack on.


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## swampdonkey (4 October 2012)

siennamum said:



			I don't expect Op means she will buy a new whip and start beating her horse to be fair. I suspect the agenda is now going to change and her horse will be going through a period of tough love.
I think it is fairly normal for a bright young horse to test the boundaries. You can faff about for months giving mixed signals and getting your horse to moondance all over the yard, or you can use body language, a loud voice, a stick/lead rein/ bucket - or whatever is to hand, to get the bugger out of your space, and demand some respect, in a couple of 5 minute sessions.

I have had a few similar phases with youngsters OP, to a greater or lesser degree, one thing I absolutely demand - by any means, is that when I advance and say BACK, they go back, preferably while saluting. Sounds like you have great support at home, I'd crack on.
		
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absolutely agreed, if more people did this then maybe there wouldn't be so many posts on " My new horse is being dangerous"
I haven't got the confidence myself therefore would not buy a youngster but fair play to you OP and good luck!


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## katastrophykat (4 October 2012)

Bet of luck OP- my youngster is mainly perfect, but has his moments where he tries to see how far he can push me. It starts tiny, he'll move a foot once told to stand still, but if not corrected straight away, escalates to fidgeting, looking for trouble, stomping about etc. he just looks for that one time I dont correct him to do so. He's had a few slaps and smacks, but I have te advantage of having bred the big brat, and he had most of his tantrums when he was small enough to handle easily- the best day was when he chucked himself on the floor, and I took the opportunity to place my foot on his neck and made him stay down. He hasn't done it since, and it hasn't made him fearful of me when at any time- in fact I often have to pick out his feet with him lying down as he can't be bothered to get up! 

He pushes a lot more with dad than me, as dad is almost 70 now and though he has handled him since he was born, is generally softer with him than I am- so dad has numerous broken zips, has had a lovely black eye and trodden toes. I do occasionally step in, but baby is never nasty ever and quiet for dad to handle so have left him to it in the main part. 

You know, it's always the really soft owners on my yard that have really bolshy horses, and some are just plain bad mannered- its because nothing is reinforced with them. 

Good luck


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## Brightbay (4 October 2012)

And it has worked with him before, so y wont it work now?
		
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Well, clearly it hasn't worked, since the aim is to stop the behaviour, and the behaviour is still happening.  At what point the in cycle of beat horse, horse submits for a few weeks then tells you again they don't like your approach, beat horse, horse submits for a few weeks...  will you try a different approach, I wonder?

Most of the worst violence in the world seems to me to happen because someone in a respected position has said "this thing you think is bad and that makes you really uncomfortable is actually fine and is the only way". Just brutalises the person doing it so that they think it's normal and everybody does it that way (they don't) and increases the likelihood of escalating retaliation.

However, it sounds as if you're now happy and reassured that you'll have to keep doing it, so I wonder why you posted? Maybe you really do wonder if there's a better way and you are uncertain about whether you really are the sort of person who thinks a sustained attack on an animal as a planned a premediated punishment is OK.


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## Patterdale (4 October 2012)

Queenbee I'd def listen tothe off forum advice you've been given. 
Far better to have one definite, firm lesson than be constantly having small nagging sessionsfrom here to eternity. 

Hope it all works out


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## Miss L Toe (4 October 2012)

More work.


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## JennBags (4 October 2012)

. You can faff about for months giving mixed signals and getting your horse to moondance all over the yard, or you can use body language, a loud voice, a stick/lead rein/ bucket
		
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I assume this was aimed at my post? There was no faffing around mentioned, and certainly not for months. I also had a very dominant horse who would rear in your face, and kick out. With the help of my RI we cured him of this within 2 short sessions, and I continued handling him in a dominant way the whole time, he was fine after this 




			You know, it's always the really soft owners on my yard that have really bolshy horses, and some are just plain bad mannered- its because nothing is reinforced with them.
		
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I agree. My horses are 17.1 and 17.2. The one I mention above is no longer with us, but he was 17hh. Both my horses are excellent to handle


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## WestCoast (4 October 2012)

OK not pretending to be a horse expert here but. . . 

Boundaries are important for any horse, and that requires there to be consequences for bad behavior. However, it needs to be very clear what action caused the consequence, it should be proportionate and stop immediately the required behavior is shown and that behavior praised. 

Also it's best if they don't realize it's coming from you. I have been shown something called the 'elbow of god' to use for nipping. You don't look at the horse and boff them on the nose (not too hard) with your elbow when they go for a nip. They stop surprised and you immediately pat them and praise. The idea is they don't even realise it is you. 

So please, please don't beat up on your horse.  

Paula


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## DipseyDeb (4 October 2012)

The mad TB said:



			I used to carry a short whip (like a jumping crop) and if he barged past whilst ignoring the headcollar he would get a tap, funnily enough I never had to ask twice!
		
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This, I had TB years ago who, when I got her really didn't have a clue how to walk in hand, she would leap about, barge in front and be a general pain in the a***e, I took a schooling whip out a couple of times, and just rested it across her chest, then when she went to put herself infront of me shoulder, she would get a tap (not a hit)  She just couldn't work out where it was coming from. I only had to take the stick out twice and our problems were over!


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## DipseyDeb (4 October 2012)

I now have a 6 year old ish, he was 4 when I bought him, I'm lucky that he is not a dominant horse and just wants to be liked by everyone, he reared up with me once in hand in the first week, he got a very stern telling off, all I had to do was shout and growl, he looked genuinely shocked, he never did it again.  I really can't advise you on your boy, all I can say is good luck but I agree, be very careful before picking a fight with him, that you may not win!


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## Alyth (4 October 2012)

jeeve said:



			I have found that if they are silly, you get them busy, lots of yielding, backing up, lunge on a circle, ask for a change of direction, every half to 1 circle, and they soon stop being silly and start listening to you. Especially if being silly means work, and being good means they get to relax and chill out.
		
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This!  "A pasting" doesn't do any good to either you or the horse.  You need to be consistent, respond to negative behaviour with appropriate response - not loose your temper and beat him up.  Do less sooner.....keep him busy and don't forget to reward good behaviour!!  Youngsters, whether horse or human! are always testing the boundaries....a long (at least 12') leadrope is essential.  And learn to control his hindquarters.  Although the P word is hated nowadays his first 3 "games" are essential!!!


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## TigerTail (4 October 2012)

If the trainer who backed him is suggesting a ''good pasting'' then its no wonder the horse is behaving how he is. He's clearly had steps missed out in his education, and those blanks have been filled in with slaps and shouting from this so called trainer.

You need a new trainer. A good pasting it not going to resolve this issue, its only going to make him wary of humans.

You need to learn proper groundwork and how the horses mind works in order to make them want to do what we want and not do what we dont - but not through a thrashing


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## Wheels (4 October 2012)

I am actually gobsmacked that these so called trainers of yours are well respected if this is the advice they give. 
You need to do some proper groundwork with a suitable trainer, if you try to beat this horse then I fear you are going to get hurt, possibly badly. You need to get into a different mindset. 

Even if you won the first battle there will be many more unless you change tactics! 

You came asking for support but I cannot support giving a horse a pasting!


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## Renvers (4 October 2012)

jeeve said:



			I have found that if they are silly, you get them busy, lots of yielding, backing up, lunge on a circle, ask for a change of direction, every half to 1 circle, and they soon stop being silly and start listening to you. Especially if being silly means work, and being good means they get to relax and chill out.
		
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This ^^ its a time for brains over brawn ... Ditto all the comments about increased training on the ground and nipping behaviour in the bud. Maybe get professional help from someone other than the trainer who backed him?


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## Amymay (4 October 2012)

I think your trainer is full of crap, Queenbee - sorry.

And I very much hope you don't resort to any sort of pasting of this horse.

Look at your own behaviour, handling style, and management.

And of course your original post clearly identifies what the problem is - the horse needs a job to do.

Get him out hunting for the winter - he'll be all the sweeter for it.

And I'm editing to add I've been around many, many youngsters from newborn to backed and ridden away - and not one of them has ever needed the pasting you describe.

The more I think about it - the more horrified I am at the advice you've received, and that you plan to follow it through.

I'm actually pretty disgusted.


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## Sarah1 (4 October 2012)

OP - my feelings on this are simple, you know your horse & your trainers know your horse, if you respect their judgement and know that these actions are thoroughly considered & measured and are happy it's the right action for your horse then just get cracking!

I don't agree with beating animals but if every other avenue has been explored and all other attempts have failed then sometimes some tough love is the only answer, I agree with a previous reply though that these reprimands need to be a short sharp shock timed perfectly - if you are even a second too late you're likely to do more harm than good.

My horse is a big boy - he's almost 17hh and he's very broad too.  He once bite me...once.  As soon as his teeth made contact with my person I bopped him right on teh end of his nose - to this day I don't know where my speed came from but he has NEVER bitten again.  Similarly he went through a phgase of barging out of the stable - he didn't care if I was stood in the way he'd come straight over me.  Not good.  Anyhoo, one day my (male) instructor was stood in the doorway with the stable door wide open, Bailey didnt make a move towards that door - he didnt dare barge my instructor (who has a very authoritive prescence about him *without* being aggressive or even raising his voice!) and I knew he was taking the pee with me so the next time he barged me I was ready for him - I smacked him across the chest with the leadrope and ran at him waving my arms and growling (looked like a lunatic!) - he was so shocked he backed straight up into the back corner of his stable and he has never barged since.  If he ever looks like he's even thinking about it I just say 'ah' and he'll stop in his tracks.

I'll hasten to add my boy is a bit of a lover not a fighter so it is fairly easy for me to be the dominant 'herd' member - I appreciate this isn't the case with some horses.

Good luck with whatever you decide to do but please remember if you lose your temper you've lost the argument.


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## Ibblebibble (4 October 2012)

ask yourself what kind of leader you respect most before you decide which course of action to take QB, a leader who beats you into submission and leads through fear of reprisal or one who works with you and instills trust ?


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## HBM1 (4 October 2012)

The more I think about this the more I feel for the poor horse.  You have two women giving you advice, you say you have been emotionally distant to him by choice when first buying him, but also have been nice to him.  You have tried this and that, he is recently backed.....does he have any consistency in his life and routine?  Is he confused by conflicting actions and responses.  If you build yourself up to go to him in a mood to fight, then that is what your body language will reflect isn't it?  He will then respond to that, either through fear or through not wishing to be hurt and then all he will do is "prove you are right about him".  

You must be consistent with him and find a way forward without resorting to violence.  You cannot ever build any trusting or long-standing relationship by use of violence and physical pain over another.  These two women you talk of may be very well-respected in their chosen field, but the fact is anyone who runs out of ideas resorts to violence as in their view, that must be the only way forward if the horse isn't listening to them.  

I have two Rottweilers, my eldest, a female, has never been a moment's trouble. The youngest, a boy now 6 and wonderful, turned into a horrible oik aged 13 months.  He would leap up at me, growl, push me around etc - having been the perfect dog up until then.  He was trying to move up the social ladder basically.  Most dog books will say "yelp/turn your back on them to show disapproval" blah blah blah - I can honestly say all those served to do was drive Bailey on in his quest.  Many a time I was in despair as I had never had a dog like him...so I turned it around on him, whenever he became gobby I spoke to him very calmly and kept telling him no, but also giving lots of distractions.  It took time, but it did work.  Not every book knows how to deal with every animal, because they are not robots.  Bailey is a very loving and affectionate dog, but it is almost as though he just didn't know how to handle his hormones (I did help it along by having him neutered as well).  Getting into a fight would not have worked, I would have lost.  I fear this is a similar situation with your boy - he is confused and anger/yelling/beating will make him worse and destroy ANY chance you have of building a relationship with him.  

My advice would be to get someone in who has lots of experience of handling youngsters and start from the very beginning with him and his emotions...


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## Sarah1 (4 October 2012)

Ibblebibble said:



			ask yourself what kind of leader you respect most before you decide which course of action to take QB, a leader who beats you into submission and leads through fear of reprisal or one who works with you and instills trust ?
		
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This is a good point though I don't think OP has any intention of actually beating her horse I think it's more a case of physical reinforcement of her requests.

I would also add, however, in the wild the dominant member of the herd will give warnings etc to the jumped up whipper snappers but if these warnings are not heeded they are backed up with an appropriate action ie a swift bite or kick - again it's about timing, not about inflicting pain.

You need to gain your horses respect and just beating him will not do this but asking him a question and giving him guidance regarding the correct answer to that question will


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## siennamum (4 October 2012)

JennBags said:



			I assume this was aimed at my post? There was no faffing around mentioned, and certainly not for months. I also had a very dominant horse who would rear in your face, and kick out. With the help of my RI we cured him of this within 2 short sessions, and I continued handling him in a dominant way the whole time, he was fine after this 



I agree. My horses are 17.1 and 17.2. The one I mention above is no longer with us, but he was 17hh. Both my horses are excellent to handle 

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Hi JennBags, it wasn't aimed at your post. Just a general observation that sometimes (as you have said) a couple of sessions which pull the horse up short are of more use than months of faffing, which I suspect happens.


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## SadKen (4 October 2012)

I suppose those of us in this position (I am too, but already know pasting won't work on my lad and it's just not in me to do it) have the same choices as any other animal.  Fight, flight or avoid. 

Flight's not an option or we'll always be bottom of the pecking order, which won't get us the result we want.  Fight won't work as the horse is bigger than us.  Which leaves us with avoid. I'm not going to avoid the horse or avoid doing what I need to do with him, but I AM going to work in another way for now (on a lunge line and cavesson) so I can send him away when he does something I don't like.  I'll come back to working in close contact if/when he's behaving using the new method. I need to re-establish control, and after all my hard work of the past couple of weeks, it's a big disappointment.

If that doesn't work, I think it'll be time to bring in some outside help.  Heaven forbid I become a 'my new horse is dangerous' person! I never thought this would happen to me by the way, as I'm calm and confident, bought a horse that, although showed a bit of attitude, did not appear in any way nasty, and very in charge of my two GSDs (one of which was an extremely difficult pup, and is now an angel). This is already the biggest challenge I've faced because of the intent to take charge behind it, and I think because it was a surprise.  I also know I could have handled it better and been firmer, so it's all uphill from here.


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## Oberon (4 October 2012)

I knew a horse like this.

He went away for breaking in by a local dressage trainer and came back sensitive and ill mannered.

Over then next few years he had occasional explosions under saddle and inhand.

He badly hurt his owner and people said he was possessed and needed a strong man to teach him a lesson.

Owner got the vet out first who found he was riddled with grade 4 ulcers that had been causing him pain for years.

Vet reckoned they first started with the stress of being broken in......


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## Oberon (4 October 2012)

With my Tank.....

When I moved to my current yard and was in my last year at Uni, he started being really bad leading to the field. He was 3.

He was barging, rearing, jumping on me and pulling.

We started off with head collar and lead rope, carried loosely in my hand.
Then the rope 'BHS style', carried in both hands.
Then I wore gloves.
Then added a whip.
Then a bridle.
Then a lunge line.
Then I wore a hat too.

He was getting worse and I was getting scared. I had taught this horse everything from a feral 2 year old to a lovely and well mannered youngster. It was all unravelling .

One day he reared up and knocked my hat off.

I accidently dropped the rope from one of my hands. I just stood there, utterly defeated, breathed deep and my shoulders sagged.

He stood there and looked at me with this strange look on his face.

And I realised what was happening.

I was so stressed from moving to a new yard, fitting in, finishing Uni, being broke, worrying about the future......

It was me 

I was the problem.

I was the only person who'd ever spent time with him and he'd learnt to trust me.

But all of a sudden I was acting 'weird' to him. My body language must have been off, I must have smelled differently, acted differently.

And I was making him crazy 

From then on we went back to the head collar and lead rope. I made sure I was relaxed and kept my breathing steady.

And there has never been a problem since


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## lcharles (4 October 2012)

My horse came to me as the spawn of the devil - literally evil!! He was 6 years old and had walked all over 6 people before hand - broken 3 peoples legs, pinned someone against a wall and kicked his owner in the head. Not really sure why i bought him - he wasnt even cheap - but i could see his potential!! First two weeks he was awesome - then the devil returned, bucked, reared, spun, would get me off and kicked me in the head twice before bolting off.....so i got mad!! 

He had to be led in a chifney otherwise he'd bolt off, he had to be tied up in a certain place so he couldnt pin you, crush you etc and to ride he was hell!!! But for some reason, i liked him!! Had to be megs strict with him. If i asked him to stand, if he slightly shifted his weight, i'd say 'stand' in a firm voice, if he moved, he had a tap on the shoulder. This in itself made a massive difference - suprisingly. I think he knew i wouldnt take any sh** off him. Riding him, i had to stick to ways he was best to start with as one strop was a death wish, but we persisted, massive praise at the smallest things and he'd get a firm 'no' if he did the smallest thing wrong! Only once did i flip at him - i actually bit him on the nose cuz he chucked his head up so high i couldnt get his bridle on and he kicked his front leg out at me - felt instantly bad and not sure what came over me but i was livid at him, but after that, he never chucked his head up again. He is now an amazing horse, doesnt everything i ask of him, is a real sweety and now most peoples favourite horse on the yard. I may have be mean to him at times but if i hadnt been, he would of been at slaughter. I've been really lucky that i havent been hurt by him, ive been knocked out 4 times by him but luckily unhurt otherwise.

Be careful, always have someone around and know where you are, what time you'll be back and be firm! 

Its nice to give my lad fuss and love but even now, if he even slightly shifts his weight once he's been asked to stand he still gets told off as the smallest of things could lead him to return to devil-hood!! x


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## tabithakat64 (4 October 2012)

I completely agree with the use of a bit or chifney with lunge line hat and gloves in these situations. 
The short sharpe shock of a smack timed perfectly really does help establish what is in acceptable behaviour as does the use of mr elbow and body language. 
What I wouldn't do is go into this situation angry yourself and ready for a fight, you're less likely to get the desired outcome if you let yourself be ruled by emotion, it would be much better if you stayed calm.


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## Puppy (4 October 2012)

amymay said:



			I think your trainer is full of crap, Queenbee - sorry.

And I very much hope you don't resort to any sort of pasting of this horse.

Look at your own behaviour, handling style, and management.

And of course your original post clearly identifies what the problem is - the horse needs a job to do.

Get him out hunting for the winter - he'll be all the sweeter for it.

And I'm editing to add I've been around many, many youngsters from newborn to backed and ridden away - and not one of them has ever needed the pasting you describe.

The more I think about it - the more horrified I am at the advice you've received, and that you plan to follow it through.

I'm actually pretty disgusted.
		
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Ditto.


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## Maesfen (4 October 2012)

Why on earth didn't you mark his boundaries when you first had him then he wouldn't be getting the upper hand?  You've been too wishy washy with him all along and now he's going to be the one that pays for your mistakes.  Yes, you are going to have to be firm - but very fair at the same time if you want him to change into a pleasant horse to handle.
For a start, always turn out in a bridle to give you more control and never turn loose anywhere near an electric fence, that's asking for trouble if he swings sideways/backwards into it, you will be flattened because you put yourself in his way.
Just learn to think before you do anything and never take on anything you know you can't win because if he retaliates because you've been unfair in your handling, well, he'll win every time and then he'll be labelled dangerous and so on when in reality, it's you that has messed him up by not being firm enough in the first place.


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## rema (4 October 2012)

Pfft need lots of Like buttons..Who are these experts?.I must know/heard of them?.If you are going to pick a fight with your horse the chances are you are going to get double barrelled into next week.


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## Sophstar (4 October 2012)

Though my little brat pony is nowhere near as bad as what some people have described he is a clear example of where 'violent', (using the term loosely) just esculated issues. If you played leader/bully he got even angrier and at only 12hh he was and can still be VERY quick with his back feet. I should know, he almost broke my knee cap when I was a kid 

With a typical pony attitude, being told to do something he got defensive and being nicey nicey to him just meant he would walk all over you. Before me he was sent back from loan homes 4 times in a couple of months with the reputation of biting, kicking, and actively chasing you in the field 

The answer to our problems was just simply groundwork. Once a week it was just me and him in the school. Move back, move to the side, walk on, halt, walk on, move away. Clear instructions and defining yourself as 'boss' gained his respect. Don't get me wrong, he can still be a grumpy sod, but gets a stern nose tap if I spy nipping teeth and I try not to push his rear end to move over, a simply hand gesture from ground work and he will move. He is much more chilled knowing his place in our 'herd' and behaves impeccably compared to other rude bargy ponies on the yard.The relationship must work in that he respects what you ask of him, but you must respect his space too. Preferably putting him out with a firm herd leader would help to teach him some boundaries. Luckily my cob is admired for being a very respectable herd leader who doesn't need to kick and bite to 'control' his herd of 7, including 5 year olds who are twice his size.  Good luck!


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## Pedantic (4 October 2012)

Will you be posting pics of you in your dominatrix outfit


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## TuscanBunnyGirl (4 October 2012)

Oh no 

I really feel for you 

I had this problem with mine when he was nearly 3.

Started rearing up at me and kicking out and ended up breaking my mums hand and got me a few times. 
Literally nightmare horse, didn't know what to do.
So in the end, he got physically reprimanded ... nothing horrendous but a fair few smacks! And to my horror...he obviously thought he could dish that out too and it ended up a lot worse. Obviously when a 500kg agile lump of muscle starts fighting with you...you ain't gonna win. 

In the end I turned him out. For ages..literally barely handled him for about 6months? or so. Brought him in one day and he was like a lamb and has been since. Maybe it's something he's just going to grow out of?

A few sharp smacks on my current 2year old work fine though. 

I think every horse is different.

Best of luck with the beautiful boy, stay safe! x


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## Buds_mum (4 October 2012)

So remove the term 'a pasting' which skims around what you want to do.

Which is beat him. 

Really? Would you beat anything else? A child who was trying his luck? No you would explain calmly what you want and why, horses are no different you should just explain in a language they can understand.

He is pushing you around yes, so he needs correction and repetition. You've allowed him to get away with it so now you need to fix it, and not with force.

I'm really sorry QB and from your posts I have always respected your opinions but if you want to get 'nasty and violent' with your youngster then you shouldn't own a horse. 

I am not wishy washy, Buddy has been told off and on occasion with correct timing smacked, but literally I can count on one hand. He is a well mannered 4 year old who broke in beautifully and none of his training has required use of a crop or 'a pasting'. No young horse should have to go through this.

I hope if you do it you feel every blow and every inch of distrust he will have in you. He should be a willing partner not an animal who does what you tell him because otherwise he thinks he may get beaten. i've owned a horse who had been treated like this, he never 100% trusted humans, why should he?


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## Caol Ila (4 October 2012)

I recommend reading Mark Rashid's "Horses Never Lie: The Heart of Passive Leadership."

Mark argues that while many herds have a dominant horse who gets what it wants by behaving aggressively towards other horses, this is not, according to his observations, a horse who the other horses choose to follow or hang out with.  They'll get out of its way when it chases them off the water trough or a pile of hay, but generally they'll avoid it.  Instead, the horse who the others want to follow is generally a horse who is calm, consistent, who leads by example, who doesn't take any crap but doesn't regularly behave in an outright aggressive manner.  Mark calls this horse a "passive leader."  His view is that we should seek out that passive leader role in order to have the best possible relationships with our horses. He stresses that "passive" does not mean letting your horse do whatever it wants and walk all over you, but rather being calm and consistent and quietly firm.


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## guido16 (4 October 2012)

As many if you know, I have an angle grinder that I trim my horses feet with, would you like to borrow it to give your horse a pasting with?


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## Cortez (4 October 2012)

Ah, I don't in any way wish to be rude, but this explains a few things that have puzzled me for a long time. I am from Ireland. We have lots of horses. We are a fairly straightforward nation of the "basic" horsemanship school. Horses are not given much chance to misbehave, if they muck about they tend to get whacked. I go on occasion to the UK on horsey business and notice a distinct difference in the manners of horses (and, not to be even more rude, the, er, shape of same).You cannot effectively train horses by nambypambying about; they become dangerous, and riders/handlers become scared of them.


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## Amymay (4 October 2012)

Cortez said:



			Ah, I don't in any way wish to be rude, but this explains a few things that have puzzled me for a long time. I am from Ireland. We have lots of horses. We are a fairly straightforward nation of the "basic" horsemanship school. Horses are not given much chance to misbehave, if they muck about they tend to get whacked. I go on occasion to the UK on horsey business and notice a distinct difference in the manners of horses (and, not to be even more rude, the, er, shape of same).You cannot effectively train horses by nambypambying about; they become dangerous, and riders/handlers become scared of them.
		
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I don't think anyone has suggested nambypambying anything.  Just perhaps that giving it a good 'pasting' isn't the way to go.

My horses have all had manners to burn - I've never beaten anything in my life - but will happily give it a whack.  There is a huge difference between the two.


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## Buds_mum (4 October 2012)

amymay said:



			I don't think anyone has suggested nambypambying anything.  Just perhaps that giving it a good 'pasting' isn't the way to go.

My horses have all had manners to burn - I've never beaten anything in my life - but will happily give it a whack.  There is a huge difference between the two.
		
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Exactly how I feel amymay, there is a huge divide between the two things. 

I like the passive leadership thing, its just like having a good boss, my fave ever boss was great. let us know when things weren't right and was just a great chilled person to be around... my worst boss, crazy lady who let things go too far then go ape when it all got too much and the trigger might be smallest thing, she would explode. never knew where we were with her!


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## CobsGalore (4 October 2012)

I don't know you, or your horse. Maybe this is the right thing to do, maybe it's not.

All I do know is that I had a horse in the past that could be dominant and aggressive, and if I gave him 'a good pasting' I wouldn't be here to tell the tale. That is all.

Keep safe. I hope this doesn't ruin any relationship you have with your horse.


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## Oberon (4 October 2012)

Queenbee said:



			They are all separated in individual paddocks
		
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Here's your problem, IMO.

I could never be on a yard where this is the only option.

I've seen 'posh competition horses' live like this and slowly go mad from it.

I can understand the reasoning behind it - but I really feel horses should be able to mutually groom, play and interact within a herd environment....especially younger ones.


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## Cortez (4 October 2012)

Indeed there is! And beating (definition, perhaps? I'd say a beating was a prolonged attack. I was always taught the rule of 3: never give more than 3 slaps/whacks/whatever) does not work, it only frightens the horse. But I'm not sure what "pasting" means? I don't get the feeling that OP was planning on beating horsie up?


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## Queenbee (4 October 2012)

JennBags said:



			QB if you've already made your mind up on the advice of 2 knowledgeable & highly respected horsewomen, I don't understand why you've posted asking for advice?

There are the types of horses that are just trying it on & need a good smack to be put in their place, such as the ones described by sophiebailey and madhoss.

Then there are the ones that are truly dominant & need a different approach, which is what Ben sounds like. You need to get his trust & respect, you need to be the herd leader, and beating him into submission is not, IMO, the way to do it. 

You say it has worked before so why not again? Because its a temporary fix, and the more you do this, each time he goes back, the worse he will be and you will end up with a dangerous horse who can't be handled at all. 

I think Jeeve & Spike have got it right, you need to re-establish your herd leader status with lots of moving him round on a small circle, stopping him, changing direction (using your body language), backing him up, using the stick as a threat but not actually hitting him with it, from what you've described, I think hitting him will make him rebel far worse. Its difficult to describe exactly what I mean, it's almost an IH approach but without the softly-softly part of it. When you're moving him round, you need to be physically firm until he starts listening to your body language, it's important to get that right too. 

Good luck 

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I didn't ask for advice, I have every intention of 'moving him around' it is something we do everyday before he goes out in the field, to try and get him to wait and listen.  Not every horse will be fixed with one session, at some later point they will test again, this does not mean that method doesn't work, clearly it did... this is just a horse being a horse and testing, the lessons need to be reitterated.


rockysmum said:



			She didn't

She asked for vibes from us, the only advice she asked for was how to get herself to actually do it.  At no point in the OP did she doubt it was right.
		
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thank you for clarifying


siennamum said:



			I don't expect Op means she will buy a new whip and start beating her horse to be fair. I suspect the agenda is now going to change and her horse will be going through a period of tough love.
I think it is fairly normal for a bright young horse to test the boundaries. You can faff about for months giving mixed signals and getting your horse to moondance all over the yard, or you can use body language, a loud voice, a stick/lead rein/ bucket - or whatever is to hand, to get the bugger out of your space, and demand some respect, in a couple of 5 minute sessions.

I have had a few similar phases with youngsters OP, to a greater or lesser degree, one thing I absolutely demand - by any means, is that when I advance and say BACK, they go back, preferably while saluting. Sounds like you have great support at home, I'd crack on.
		
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This, absolutely.  I will not be grabbing a whip and beating the poo out of him, I will be reprimanding with voice, etc... and if he doesn't listen, I will use the whip to back up my voice and get him out of my space, or stop undesirable, dangerous behaviour.



Brightbay said:



			Well, clearly it hasn't worked, since the aim is to stop the behaviour, and the behaviour is still happening.  At what point the in cycle of beat horse, horse submits for a few weeks then tells you again they don't like your approach, beat horse, horse submits for a few weeks...  will you try a different approach, I wonder?

Most of the worst violence in the world seems to me to happen because someone in a respected position has said "this thing you think is bad and that makes you really uncomfortable is actually fine and is the only way". Just brutalises the person doing it so that they think it's normal and everybody does it that way (they don't) and increases the likelihood of escalating retaliation.

However, it sounds as if you're now happy and reassured that you'll have to keep doing it, so I wonder why you posted? Maybe you really do wonder if there's a better way and you are uncertain about whether you really are the sort of person who thinks a sustained attack on an animal as a planned a premediated punishment is OK.
		
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Please do not get me wrong, this is not a method I think is 'ok or appropriate' with all horses, this is an individual case, for ebony, I would never have been able to use this approach, ben is not ebony and it is appropriate in my opinion given the situation and his attitude/temperament.



Miss L Toe said:



			More work.
		
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totally agree, but won't be faffing around putting up with his attitude on the ground without dealing with it.  Also, wont be jumping straight on his back he will be worked on the lunge for a few days and ground work too.


JennBags said:



			I assume this was aimed at my post? There was no faffing around mentioned, and certainly not for months. I also had a very dominant horse who would rear in your face, and kick out. With the help of my RI we cured him of this within 2 short sessions, and I continued handling him in a dominant way the whole time, he was fine after this 



I agree. My horses are 17.1 and 17.2. The one I mention above is no longer with us, but he was 17hh. Both my horses are excellent to handle 

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thats good for you, ben has and will be again excellent to handle, this is simply a blip and one I will deal with, perhaps he is testing me because in this sense he never has tested me in this way before?  Therefore hopefully it should only take one session of reprimanding a bout of bad behaviour.



Alyth said:



			This!  "A pasting" doesn't do any good to either you or the horse.  You need to be consistent, respond to negative behaviour with appropriate response - not loose your temper and beat him up.  Do less sooner.....keep him busy and don't forget to reward good behaviour!!  Youngsters, whether horse or human! are always testing the boundaries....a long (at least 12') leadrope is essential.  And learn to control his hindquarters.  Although the P word is hated nowadays his first 3 "games" are essential!!!
		
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No one said anything about beating him up...  this is not something that is going to be done in temper or anger... thats not my style, its a golden rule to never react in anger/temper.  I have been fully able to control the quarters, and to back him up, etc.... he hasn't forgotten that he is just ignoring it and being a stubborn brute/git.


TigerTail said:



			If the trainer who backed him is suggesting a ''good pasting'' then its no wonder the horse is behaving how he is. He's clearly had steps missed out in his education, and those blanks have been filled in with slaps and shouting from this so called trainer.

You need a new trainer. A good pasting it not going to resolve this issue, its only going to make him wary of humans.

You need to learn proper groundwork and how the horses mind works in order to make them want to do what we want and not do what we dont - but not through a thrashing 

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please do not teach me to suck eggs...   I do not need a new trainer thank you very much.


Wheels said:



			I am actually gobsmacked that these so called trainers of yours are well respected if this is the advice they give. 
You need to do some proper groundwork with a suitable trainer, if you try to beat this horse then I fear you are going to get hurt, possibly badly. You need to get into a different mindset. 

Even if you won the first battle there will be many more unless you change tactics! 

You came asking for support but I cannot support giving a horse a pasting!
		
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As above.



amymay said:



			I think your trainer is full of crap, Queenbee - sorry.

And I very much hope you don't resort to any sort of pasting of this horse.

Look at your own behaviour, handling style, and management.

And of course your original post clearly identifies what the problem is - the horse needs a job to do.

Get him out hunting for the winter - he'll be all the sweeter for it.

And I'm editing to add I've been around many, many youngsters from newborn to backed and ridden away - and not one of them has ever needed the pasting you describe.

The more I think about it - the more horrified I am at the advice you've received, and that you plan to follow it through.

I'm actually pretty disgusted.
		
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He will be worked this winter Amymay, but I won't be hunting him, he is 3 1/2 and I don't agree with hunting him this young.


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## *hic* (4 October 2012)

Maesfen said:



			Why on earth didn't you mark his boundaries when you first had him then he wouldn't be getting the upper hand?  You've been too wishy washy with him all along and now he's going to be the one that pays for your mistakes.  Yes, you are going to have to be firm - but very fair at the same time if you want him to change into a pleasant horse to handle.
For a start, always turn out in a bridle to give you more control and never turn loose anywhere near an electric fence, that's asking for trouble if he swings sideways/backwards into it, you will be flattened because you put yourself in his way.
Just learn to think before you do anything and never take on anything you know you can't win because if he retaliates because you've been unfair in your handling, well, he'll win every time and then he'll be labelled dangerous and so on when in reality, it's you that has messed him up by not being firm enough in the first place.
		
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^^^Absolutely this with the "Just learn to think before you do anything" underlined in bold with a sparkly font.


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## redredruby (4 October 2012)

Caol Ila said:



			I recommend reading Mark Rashid's "Horses Never Lie: The Heart of Passive Leadership."

Mark argues that while many herds have a dominant horse who gets what it wants by behaving aggressively towards other horses, this is not, according to his observations, a horse who the other horses choose to follow or hang out with.  They'll get out of its way when it chases them off the water trough or a pile of hay, but generally they'll avoid it.  Instead, the horse who the others want to follow is generally a horse who is calm, consistent, who leads by example, who doesn't take any crap but doesn't regularly behave in an outright aggressive manner.  Mark calls this horse a "passive leader."  His view is that we should seek out that passive leader role in order to have the best possible relationships with our horses. He stresses that "passive" does not mean letting your horse do whatever it wants and walk all over you, but rather being calm and consistent and quietly firm.
		
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Completely agree with this!  I am a big fan of Mark Rashid and think he has really been able to identify how to build a relationship on mutual respect and trust - it strikes a balance between being too dominant or being too soft.....which I think is sometimes a trap people can fall into when using NH methods.


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## Queenbee (4 October 2012)

Sarah1 said:



			OP - my feelings on this are simple, you know your horse & your trainers know your horse, if you respect their judgement and know that these actions are thoroughly considered & measured and are happy it's the right action for your horse then just get cracking!

I don't agree with beating animals but if every other avenue has been explored and all other attempts have failed then sometimes some tough love is the only answer, I agree with a previous reply though that these reprimands need to be a short sharp shock timed perfectly - if you are even a second too late you're likely to do more harm than good.

My horse is a big boy - he's almost 17hh and he's very broad too.  He once bite me...once.  As soon as his teeth made contact with my person I bopped him right on teh end of his nose - to this day I don't know where my speed came from but he has NEVER bitten again.  Similarly he went through a phgase of barging out of the stable - he didn't care if I was stood in the way he'd come straight over me.  Not good.  Anyhoo, one day my (male) instructor was stood in the doorway with the stable door wide open, Bailey didnt make a move towards that door - he didnt dare barge my instructor (who has a very authoritive prescence about him *without* being aggressive or even raising his voice!) and I knew he was taking the pee with me so the next time he barged me I was ready for him - I smacked him across the chest with the leadrope and ran at him waving my arms and growling (looked like a lunatic!) - he was so shocked he backed straight up into the back corner of his stable and he has never barged since.  If he ever looks like he's even thinking about it I just say 'ah' and he'll stop in his tracks.

I'll hasten to add my boy is a bit of a lover not a fighter so it is fairly easy for me to be the dominant 'herd' member - I appreciate this isn't the case with some horses.

Good luck with whatever you decide to do but please remember if you lose your temper you've lost the argument. 

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I agree... no temper, that I would not be able to live with.  I have done the short sharp hit, I havent even waited for him to actually get me, its been as he starts to turn and puts his ears back... doesn't work with just one, he challenges this, and you have to give back it up and say 'no you don't get to get mad at me for telling you off!'



Oberon said:



			I knew a horse like this.

He went away for breaking in by a local dressage trainer and came back sensitive and ill mannered.

Over then next few years he had occasional explosions under saddle and inhand.

He badly hurt his owner and people said he was possessed and needed a strong man to teach him a lesson.

Owner got the vet out first who found he was riddled with grade 4 ulcers that had been causing him pain for years.

Vet reckoned they first started with the stress of being broken in......
		
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He is absolutely fine when he is being handled and groomed, Im pretty sure that there are no ulcers, it is very much 'character'


Maesfen said:



			Why on earth didn't you mark his boundaries when you first had him then he wouldn't be getting the upper hand?  You've been too wishy washy with him all along and now he's going to be the one that pays for your mistakes.  Yes, you are going to have to be firm - but very fair at the same time if you want him to change into a pleasant horse to handle.
For a start, always turn out in a bridle to give you more control and never turn loose anywhere near an electric fence, that's asking for trouble if he swings sideways/backwards into it, you will be flattened because you put yourself in his way.
Just learn to think before you do anything and never take on anything you know you can't win because if he retaliates because you've been unfair in your handling, well, he'll win every time and then he'll be labelled dangerous and so on when in reality, it's you that has messed him up by not being firm enough in the first place.
		
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Im sorry?  I didn't know you've watched me handling ben since I got him!  You couldn't possibly know how he was handled, or whether he had boundaries set.  Horses test people, horses have individual characters.  He is meerly expressing himself... it just so happens that I don't want him to express himself in this way and won't allow it.  I know my horse, I know why he is doing this, and I know how I will be handling it, which at some point means that when he gets above his station he will be reprimanded and put well and truly in his box... there is nothing wrong with that.  Quite frankly I didn't come on here for advice on how to handle him or this situation, neither did I ask for opinions on my trainer, the fact that that has been provided by most of you is up to you, but it does not change how this will be handled.  Its not just a pasting, its more groundwork, chiffney, more work, handling at at all times with a lunge whip and line so I can reprimand with it if needed, and tough loving, being in a mood with him for a few days, no fusses no loves, he will soon change his attitude.  I will say also that Im using a lunge whip not for its viciousness, but for its saftey element, I won't be lathering him, but he will feel it, and I will be safe from hooves.


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## Queenbee (4 October 2012)

rema said:



			Pfft need lots of Like buttons..Who are these experts?.I must know/heard of them?.If you are going to pick a fight with your horse the chances are you are going to get double barrelled into next week.
		
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There is no way that I am going to start naming names, thats not my style.  And actually they do not use this as their 'typical approach' this is situational.  Furthermore if my horse tries to kick me... I will use force to stop him being a bully and dangerous, without stopping it I will get double barreled into next week


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## Amymay (4 October 2012)

Im sorry? I didn't know you've watched me handling ben since I got him!
		
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Queenbee, don't get defensive over a comment bourne from your original post - which you must have known to have been inflammatory.

There is no doubt you are a caring and loving horse owner.  You've just received some very, very poor advice.

Apply some common sense.

Don't turn out next to an electric fence.
Give him some company.
Give him some work.
Apply consistency.
Crack on and build a relationship with this lovely horse.

Don't let the bad advice of a few replace what you _know_ to be the correct course of action.


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## redredruby (4 October 2012)

redredruby said:



			Completely agree with this!  I am a big fan of Mark Rashid and think he has really been able to identify how to build a relationship on mutual respect and trust - it strikes a balance between being too dominant or being too soft.....which I think is sometimes a trap people can fall into when using NH methods.
		
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Just to clarify QueenBee - I am not saying that you have or haven't used NH methods I was just responding to a post about Mark Rashid in general, not realting it to your specific circumstances. 

I do also know what you mean about Ben getting cross about you telling him off! When I give my horse a tap to get him moving more forwards he bucks or puts his ears back - I am currently trying to teach him that a tap is an aid he moves forwards from and I am not telling him off or punishing him!


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## TigerTail (4 October 2012)

QB if you were entirely happy with the 'trainers' *shudders* advice, you wouldnt have posted about it on here, knowing most would disagree with this course of action.

 My thoughts are with the poor horse, not you. He is doing as you have taught him to do - horses are mirrors of our behaviour and cause us to re examine ourselves, which is often painful to do as we know we have messed up - hence your denial.


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## Queenbee (4 October 2012)

Pedantic said:



			Will you be posting pics of you in your dominatrix outfit 

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just for you


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## Cortez (4 October 2012)

redredruby said:



			Just to clarify QueenBee - I am not saying that you have or haven't used NH methods I was just responding to a post about Mark Rashid in general, not realting it to your specific circumstances. 

I do also know what you mean about Ben getting cross about you telling him off! When I give my horse a tap to get him moving more forwards he bucks or puts his ears back - I am currently trying to teach him that a tap is an aid he moves forwards from and I am not telling him off or punishing him!
		
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No horse should EVER be allowed to flatten his ears at a rider/handler! Sharp smack for that, absolutely.


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## Queenbee (4 October 2012)

TuscanBunnyGirl said:



			Oh no 

I really feel for you 

I had this problem with mine when he was nearly 3.

Started rearing up at me and kicking out and ended up breaking my mums hand and got me a few times. 
Literally nightmare horse, didn't know what to do.
So in the end, he got physically reprimanded ... nothing horrendous but a fair few smacks! And to my horror...he obviously thought he could dish that out too and it ended up a lot worse. Obviously when a 500kg agile lump of muscle starts fighting with you...you ain't gonna win. 

In the end I turned him out. For ages..literally barely handled him for about 6months? or so. Brought him in one day and he was like a lamb and has been since. Maybe it's something he's just going to grow out of?

A few sharp smacks on my current 2year old work fine though. 

I think every horse is different.

Best of luck with the beautiful boy, stay safe! x
		
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LOL! still want him?  Can send him over as dog food   He will be fine  and I will stay safe.  Did consider chucking him away but he adores coming in, he actually goes bonkers if YO doesn't bring him in first.


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## kirstykate (4 October 2012)

OOOO ER Mrs very Kiny  Maybe the sight of you in that will be enough


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## Oberon (4 October 2012)

Cortez said:



			No horse should EVER be allowed to flatten his ears at a rider/handler! Sharp smack for that, absolutely.
		
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How about when I try to enter his stable and Obi flattens his ears, swishes his tail and bites the air near my face?

Is that wrong too?


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## Cortez (4 October 2012)

Oberon said:



			How about when I try to enter his stable and Obi flattens his ears, swishes his tail and bites the air near my face?

Is that wrong too? 

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What? Are you saying this behaviour is OK?


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## Amymay (4 October 2012)

Cortez said:



			What? Are you saying this behaviour is OK?
		
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Hoses are not machines - and very occasionally show emotion 

Good grief Cortez, get a grip.


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## Queenbee (4 October 2012)

Cortez said:



			Ah, I don't in any way wish to be rude, but this explains a few things that have puzzled me for a long time. I am from Ireland. We have lots of horses. We are a fairly straightforward nation of the "basic" horsemanship school. Horses are not given much chance to misbehave, if they muck about they tend to get whacked. I go on occasion to the UK on horsey business and notice a distinct difference in the manners of horses (and, not to be even more rude, the, er, shape of same).You cannot effectively train horses by nambypambying about; they become dangerous, and riders/handlers become scared of them.
		
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And yet so many people from england who dont agree with this attitude will gladly go to ireland and buy a horse who has had this handling because they are so well behaved


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## Queenbee (4 October 2012)

Cortez said:



			Indeed there is! And beating (definition, perhaps? I'd say a beating was a prolonged attack. I was always taught the rule of 3: never give more than 3 slaps/whacks/whatever) does not work, it only frightens the horse. But I'm not sure what "pasting" means? I don't get the feeling that OP was planning on beating horsie up?
		
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this, thank you


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## Cortez (4 October 2012)

amymay said:



			Hoses are not machines - and very occasionally show emotion 

Good grief Cortez, get a grip.
		
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You think that a horse expressing aggressive behaviour towards its' handler is OK because it is "emotional"? I am speechless, actually.


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## 3BayGeldings (4 October 2012)

deleted, can't be arsed to enter the debate.


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## kirstykate (4 October 2012)

Queenbee said:



			And yet so many people from england who dont agree with this attitude will gladly go to ireland and buy a horse who has had this handling because they are so well behaved

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HYPOCRITES!!  Some horses need it and it works others dont and it wont.


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## Amymay (4 October 2012)

Cortez said:



			You think that a horse expressing aggressive behaviour towards its' handler is OK because it is "emotional"? I am speechless, actually.
		
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Putting ears back is not aggressive behaviour.


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## Littlelegs (4 October 2012)

Amymay & maesfen have pretty much summed it up for me. And oberon makes an excellent point re the turnout. 
  I have a very dominant pony. Virtually no flight instinct, she's all fight. Only 11.1 & fine at 5. But even as a tiny youngster, she would fight any attempt to dominate her, whether horse or human. She'll feign submission when she is physically overpowered but then go back for more. As a yearling the state she was in meant there was no choice but to pin her down & treat her. She was only about 50kg, if that so it was physically possible. Several times in that first week she had to be pinned on the floor as a last resort to treat her. And every time she'd get straight back up more aggressive than before. But, if she respects you as leader she'll do anything for you happily. I have seen experienced grown men back away from her, despite her size. But when she was 2 & my daughter 4 I was as happy for her to handle her as I was her first ridden loan pony. It has to be respect, not fear. Pony will still now fight any attempt to dominate her by humans or animals, but is good as gold for anyone who she respects as a leader.


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## Oberon (4 October 2012)

Cortez said:



			What? Are you saying this behaviour is OK?
		
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Of course not 

But (god love him) that is what he does to me all winter .

A smack just makes him more angry 

It's all an act though. In 20 + years, he has never actually hurt me (on purpose) .


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## kirstykate (4 October 2012)

Cortez said:



			You think that a horse expressing aggressive behaviour towards its' handler is OK because it is "emotional"? I am speechless, actually.
		
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Totally agree


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## Cortez (4 October 2012)

Laying ears, switching tail and snapping are ALL aggressive behaviours in my book. What do you think they are?


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## MrsMozart (4 October 2012)

Sorry, not read all replies as heading into a meeting.

I've done this, or a sort of equivalent, twice with the Dizz (big DWB), and I have a feeling she's in for another discussion.

In our case it's in the stable. She'll be moved over by a schooling whip and she'll be kept going round until she drops her head and keeps her ar$e to herself!

I once made the mistake of letting her (gently!) boss me around. I nearly paid for it dearly that afternoon when she used her hind hooves to kick me into her teeth, used to teeth to try and hold me to kick me, and plastered me to the wall in the middle with her shoulder.

She's a horse that has to have a boss, including a human boss. When I'm with her regularly she behaves impeccably for me, including calling when she sees me, nuzzling, etc., but she can still be a bit ar$ey for others (though nothing drastic). When I haven't handled her, things get iffy. A couple of weeks ago I was wary of going behind her in the stable . Usually I can touch her all over with no issue. The odd times I've been with her (work has taken over lately), her ears are flat back and she's turning her bum on me, plus leading with her shoulder to get me into the wall). Today she won't be caught by D. She's never bad to catch at this time of year. This evening I'll be out there until I've caught her, we'll be backwards and forwards and moving over 'till get to her stable, then it will be more back-up, etc. If she doesn't do as I've asked, I'll be in her stable with the schooling whip directing her round and round me until she remembers who I am. 

Good luck OP.


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## kirstykate (4 October 2012)

Oberon said:



			Of course not 

But (god love him) that is what he does to me all winter .


A smack just makes him more angry 

It's all an act though. In 20 + years, he has never actually hurt me (on purpose) .
		
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Maybe he suffers for SAD syndrome?.  But if was 17 yrs younger would it be ok?


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## Amymay (4 October 2012)

Cortez said:



			Laying ears, switching tail and snapping are ALL aggressive behaviours in my book. What do you think they are?
		
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Laying ears, swishing tail - dependent on the situation can mean a number of things.  

Snapping - yep, aggressive.


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## Flame_ (4 October 2012)

Cortez said:



			No horse should EVER be allowed to flatten his ears at a rider/handler! Sharp smack for that, absolutely.
		
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Oh dear, I should have spent the last twenty years smacking Flamey then.


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## Equilibrium Ireland (4 October 2012)

I don't know you or your horse either. I also subscribe to the 3 second rule and very rarely have to use it. 

One of my firm rules is that I never get myself into what I can't get out of. So if I'm even thinking a horse needs a good well timed well meaning smack, I better damn well be able to deal with what's going to happen. We get a few horses on their last ditch effort. Behavorial issues which are man made. If one needs a smack, a good one, and they don't always, my husband is the one. Not because he enjoys beating horses, but because it in general is only ever needed once. I used to get on a colt in America. Full brother to a Breeders Cup winner. This horse used to try and rip you off his back viciously. I was dealing with him but to be honest I wasn't doing a great job. I also knew I wasn't strong enough to deal with him appropriately. Had hubby come over to get on him. He got one lash and never needed another one. He became quite a nice ride after that. Now you all can pick that apart any which way you like. At the end of the day he was in a racing barn, and he had a job to be done. Fact of the matter is that is what he needed. And since there was never another issue it wasn't this that or the other. He wasn't sulky or scared afterwards and actually got his act together and was a really nice ride afterwards. 

But as I always say in these discussions, having been on a significant number of horses, more than most, you get a much wider education on what works and doesn't. By the same token there are many horses that you can't give a well timed smack because it's not going to help. Your tool box has to be quite expansive mixed with the knowledge to know the difference rather quickly. Pretending you know because you've read or seen this or that isn't good enough. 

A well timed smack is better than people who constantly tap with a whip and kick, kick, kick. You just annoy your horse to death and they really have no idea what you want. This leads to more behaviour issues than you realise. 

Terri


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## Queenbee (4 October 2012)

TigerTail said:



			QB if you were entirely happy with the 'trainers' *shudders* advice, you wouldnt have posted about it on here, knowing most would disagree with this course of action.

 My thoughts are with the poor horse, not you. He is doing as you have taught him to do - horses are mirrors of our behaviour and cause us to re examine ourselves, which is often painful to do as we know we have messed up - hence your denial.
		
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Excuse me?!  I have admitted certain issues that have caused this behaviour... do not see any denial.  I am entirely happy with the trainers, why wouldn't I post, your opinion is your entitlement, but if I was uncertain about their advice, the wording of my post would have reflected that, I never just follow advice blindly if I have doubt about it, I ask for other opinions and express my uncertaintly... I ask others what would you do, what do you think.   You will see that I have not done this here.

I will send your condolences to my poor poor boy


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## hayinamanger (4 October 2012)

QueenBee, you are one of the nicest people on here.  I'm just going to say that I have a horse who learnt from an early age how to scare people.  This horse has suffered considerable abuse as a result of this but will never back down, so has always been moved on.  Violence breeds violence.


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## HBM1 (4 October 2012)

I didn't realise he was only 3 1/2 !  Rather than being naughty because he has not been ridden in a few days, could he be telling you he actually has had enough for now and needs to be turned away from work for the Winter?


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## Cortez (4 October 2012)

Flame_ said:



			Oh dear, I should have spent the last twenty years smacking Flamey then.  

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Well, perhaps if you'd given him a sharp smack 20 years ago he wouldn't still be doing it?


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## Flame_ (4 October 2012)

Cortez said:



			Well, perhaps if you'd given him a sharp smack 20 years ago he wouldn't still be doing it?
		
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LOL, yes you must understand her a lot better than me.


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## Queenbee (4 October 2012)

Equilibrium Ireland said:



			I don't know you or your horse either. I also subscribe to the 3 second rule and very rarely have to use it. 

One of my firm rules is that I never get myself into what I can't get out of. So if I'm even thinking a horse needs a good well timed well meaning smack, I better damn well be able to deal with what's going to happen. We get a few horses on their last ditch effort. Behavorial issues which are man made. If one needs a smack, a good one, and they don't always, my husband is the one. Not because he enjoys beating horses, but because it in general is only ever needed once. I used to get on a colt in America. Full brother to a Breeders Cup winner. This horse used to try and rip you off his back viciously. I was dealing with him but to be honest I wasn't doing a great job. I also knew I wasn't strong enough to deal with him appropriately. Had hubby come over to get on him. He got one lash and never needed another one. He became quite a nice ride after that. Now you all can pick that apart any which way you like. At the end of the day he was in a racing barn, and he had a job to be done. Fact of the matter is that is what he needed. And since there was never another issue it wasn't this that or the other. He wasn't sulky or scared afterwards and actually got his act together and was a really nice ride afterwards. 

But as I always say in these discussions, having been on a significant number of horses, more than most, you get a much wider education on what works and doesn't. By the same token there are many horses that you can't give a well timed smack because it's not going to help. Your tool box has to be quite expansive mixed with the knowledge to know the difference rather quickly. Pretending you know because you've read or seen this or that isn't good enough. 

A well timed smack is better than people who constantly tap with a whip and kick, kick, kick. You just annoy your horse to death and they really have no idea what you want. This leads to more behaviour issues than you realise. 

Terri
		
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Thats a very valid point, thats why when he misbehaved in the little paddock area (about 15 ft square) on the way to his field, I dropped the rope and got out of the way, no way I could have picked a fight there, surrounded by the electric fence... as it was it stung his ass anyway and all hell broke lose.


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## Renvers (4 October 2012)

Queenbee said:



			This, absolutely.  I will not be grabbing a whip and beating the poo out of him, I will be reprimanding with voice, etc... and if he doesn't listen, I will use the whip to back up my voice and get him out of my space, or stop undesirable, dangerous behaviour.

No one said anything about beating him up...  this is not something that is going to be done in temper or anger... thats not my style, its a golden rule to never react in anger/temper.  I have been fully able to control the quarters, and to back him up, etc.... he hasn't forgotten that he is just ignoring it and being a stubborn brute/git.
		
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OP - "giving someone a pasting" means beating them up violently - we can only take others' communication on face value (much like horses), why wouldn't we assume you used the term knowing its meaning? A lot of people have, rightly, posted to deter you from using this approach you said you were going to use.


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## Queenbee (4 October 2012)

HBM1 said:



			I didn't realise he was only 3 1/2 !  Rather than being naughty because he has not been ridden in a few days, could he be telling you he actually has had enough for now and needs to be turned away from work for the Winter?
		
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No not really, he was good as gold when in work, I got a bit poorly and he had a few days off, and with that his behaviour just escalated, it has now been 3 weeks, he is angry at doing nothing.


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## *hic* (4 October 2012)

^^^ This, referring to Renvers' post, and of course your title uses the terms nasty and violent!


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## Flame_ (4 October 2012)

OP, you know your horse, if you think he needs a couple of good wallops to get him to respect your instructions again then he probably does. Many more than a couple won't achieve anything, though (but I'm sure you know that already).


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## TigerTail (4 October 2012)

I suspect its more he's trying to find where the boundaries are, one minute he's in regular work, then you're poorly, you arent on tip top form as none of us are when ill and things got a bit wishy washy. Now you're back and wanting to boss him again and he's saying 'whoa hang on a minute ive been looking after myself fine thanks Il stay this way'

As I said before its a reflection on you and the handling. Im not saying that in a nasty picking at you way, god knows Im struggling atm because i have discs out in my neck, doing inhand work this morning my boss mare knew I couldnt hold her on one side so instead of doing a half pass decided to waltz through me - normally it wouldnt occur to her.

How's about getting someone to film you with him, then you watch it back with critical eyes, looking at your body position, your consistency, timing etc. 
The task -  Lead him through a gateway, ask him to back up, ask him to circle on the lunge, stop on the circle and yield his hindquarters.

Then see what you think?


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## Oberon (4 October 2012)

I'm not really into hitting but opening a can of whoop-ass to me is when I start raising my voice.

The word, "Oi" has magical powers......

My horses (and dog and son and hubby) are much more affected by that 

I also flap my arms around when I get really mad .

I've shouted at the dog before now and managed to clear a beach of people .

One big guy came up to me afterwards and said he was about ready to "SIT DOWN" when I shouted it .


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## siennamum (4 October 2012)

I think you should not ignore ears back for any reason. It can mean lots of things but all need attending to.
My youngster pulls faces behind my back, he hasn't the nerve to confront me, but will scowl at me & pretend he is rounding me up when we are coming in from the field. It is quite amusing, but his intentions are not funny at all. Periodically I make him walk alongside me and back him up & do groundwork to ensure he doesn't stretch that behaviour to it's natural conclusion.

If he is in his stable and I need to go in there, he also pulls faces & is grmpy about being disturbed, but I have no particular issue with this, he has to move over, back up and be polite, but I accept he wants his personal space and leave him alone rather than trying to prove a point.

His ears are absolutely pinned back with people he doesn't like, and so I am right there to ensure he doesn't hurt anyone, its completely unacceptable and I hope with good experiences & bridery he will get over himself.

I would always want to get to the bottom of ears back and ensure lots of exercises to consolidate submission are ongoing.

I also understand that ears back & passive are meaning something entirely different.


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## Amymay (4 October 2012)

Oberon said:



			The word, "Oi" has magical powers......
		
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The most valuable word in the equestrian dictionary


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## Queenbee (4 October 2012)

Renvers said:



			OP - "giving someone a pasting" means beating them up violently - we can only take others' communication on face value (much like horses), why wouldn't we assume you used the term knowing its meaning? A lot of people have, rightly, posted to deter you from using this approach you said you were going to use.
		
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Being someone, who in 11 years with my mare never carried or used a crop or any force, hitting a horse with a lunge whip to back him out of my space or reprimand him for challenging or aggressive behaviour is a pasting, it is not repeated whacks consisting of a proper pasting if you get what I mean.  I expect it will be a one, two, three, or just a one, if he suddenly goes 'oh no' what have i done, that is not to say that if five mins later he gets naughty again I won't do exactly the same... I will, but he is a fast learner.  When his balls dropped we had similar issues in the form of handling/leading, rearing and kicking, in this instance we used a chiffney and a vet... it was a matter of days before he was a lamb again.  The origin of this attitude is different though.  2 to 3 whacks is a pasting in comparison to my normal methods, which is why my trainer probably used this term... telling me I need to toughen up, and not be his friend, let him know he is in my bad books and behave like I dont like him very much at the moment, its just as much about him 'feeling inside' that he has done wrong when he behaves like a xxxx


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## Ibblebibble (4 October 2012)

what exactly did you want from your thread QB, you say you don't want advice but you must have known from the title alone you were going to get a reaction and people who don't agree with 'a good pasting' were going to offer alternatives. 
As Renvers said a 'good pasting' translates to a beating in pretty much anyone's book, and while that may not be what you intend to do you obviously worded your title and post to give that impression, people reacted accordingly and now you act all offended


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## TigerTail (4 October 2012)

Oberon said:



			I'm not really into hitting but opening a can of whoop-ass to me is when I start raising my voice.

The word, "Oi" has magical powers......

My horses (and dog and son and hubby) are much more affected by that 

I also flap my arms around when I get really mad .

I've shouted at the dog before now and managed to clear a beach of people .

One big guy came up to me afterwards and said he was about ready to "SIT DOWN" when I shouted it .
		
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I hav this effect  Sorted a bar brawl at the hotel I used to work at by walking into the middle of the room and doing my best terrier you are in sooo much trouble voice ''SIT DOWN'' then guilty voice which has the terrier upside down in seconds ''what on earth are you doing boys....'' the police raid squad watched from the doorway and offered to hire me on the spot


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## Queenbee (4 October 2012)

TigerTail said:



			I suspect its more he's trying to find where the boundaries are, one minute he's in regular work, then you're poorly, you arent on tip top form as none of us are when ill and things got a bit wishy washy. Now you're back and wanting to boss him again and he's saying 'whoa hang on a minute ive been looking after myself fine thanks Il stay this way'

As I said before its a reflection on you and the handling. Im not saying that in a nasty picking at you way, god knows Im struggling atm because i have discs out in my neck, doing inhand work this morning my boss mare knew I couldnt hold her on one side so instead of doing a half pass decided to waltz through me - normally it wouldnt occur to her.

How's about getting someone to film you with him, then you watch it back with critical eyes, looking at your body position, your consistency, timing etc. 
The task -  Lead him through a gateway, ask him to back up, ask him to circle on the lunge, stop on the circle and yield his hindquarters.

Then see what you think?
		
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actually, other than riding his routine has not changed at all, I have handled him every day as has YO.  I know that when we are not top notch we are not as strong and clear, but for me this is a reason but not an excuse for bad manners.  a reason gets dealt with an excuse gets ignored if you get what I mean.  He has many reasons, his loss of ebs, a new yard which he loves very much, the change in his 'role' as a riding horse this year, and now the winter... there are lots of reasons for his behavior but no excuses, I expect him to be safe around people and non confrontational and he needs to know that.


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## Marydoll (4 October 2012)

At some point somewhere he's lost respect by the sounds of it, whether that was due to you, or just his bolshy nature developing, who knows !
I do feel for you, my big warmblood came to me at 3 as a spooky, bolshy, and at times aggressive, beggar. Im pretty sure he was beaten before i got him, he was awful in the stable as he hated anyone in a skip cap and would tunn his bum on you and threaten to kick out, in hand sometimes he would attack, rear and lash out when being led, in short he was a bloody nightmare.
I had help from a couple of " experts" who in the main told me to get rid he was a dangerous horse, stick a chiffney in his mouth ( funny i missed that bit in their book ) What turned him around was working him using the rope halter and Richard Maxwell techniques, i never looked back and he is a big sweetie now, i never needed to give him a pasting, but believe me i felt like it on a few occassions, i also tried a sharp smack, it worked for other horses id had, and tbh sometimes it did work but other times  it just increased the unwanted behaviour, for me it was a rope halter, long line and Richard Maxwell that saved my boy quite literally from the bullet. 
Good luck and keep yourself safe, and do what you feel you need to, and im sure that doesnt mean beating the crap out of him, if you havent tried it, give Max's stuff a look


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## cblover (4 October 2012)

I've not read all the posts but can imagine you have been given a mixture of advice.  

Violence towards a horse is a concious decision and if you can take the time to decide to hit/beat...whatever word you want to use, you can also take the time to decide not to.  

I know safety is paramount and I understand this is unnerving you but you need to gain more knowledge about how horses learn and interact with both their own species and us as humans.  You need to learn about pressure, when to apply it and when to release it...the different type of pressure i.e. visual, verbal, physical (not hitting) and how respect is built up.  Horses are a gift and we should feel honoured that we're lucky enough to own them and have them in our lives.

Violence is not the long term answer...it may give you the behaviour you are looking for in the short term but your horse will behave like that through fear and not through its choice to co-operate.  

It's like building a house with no foundations.....it may stand up for a while but eventually it will fall down because the foundations weren't laid properly! 

I have a youngster and work very hard to be the type of owner/handler I need to be to educate him correctly and ensure its life long.  To be honest I feel a bit sick and worried for the horse in your care.  There is another way.....and you need to invest some time and energy into learning it.  You will be rewarded 100 times over.  Good luck and I hope you reach a place of harmony with your horse (and yourself)....being angry is a horrible place to be!


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## Queenbee (4 October 2012)

cblover said:



			I've not read all the posts but can imagine you have been given a mixture of advice.  

Violence towards a horse is a concious decision and if you can take the time to decide to hit/beat...whatever word you want to use, you can also take the time to decide not to.  

I know safety is paramount and I understand this is unnerving you but you need to gain more knowledge about how horses learn and interact with both their own species and us as humans.  You need to learn about pressure, when to apply it and when to release it...the different type of pressure i.e. visual, verbal, physical (not hitting) and how respect is built up.  Horses are a gift and we should feel honoured that we're lucky enough to own them and have them in our lives.

Violence is not the long term answer...it may give you the behaviour you are looking for in the short term but your horse will behave like that through fear and not through its choice to co-operate.  

It's like building a house with no foundations.....it may stand up for a while but eventually it will fall down because the foundations weren't laid properly! 

I have a youngster and work very hard to be the type of owner/handler I need to be to educate him correctly and ensure its life long.  To be honest I feel a bit sick and worried for the horse in your care.  There is another way.....and you need to invest some time and energy into learning it.  You will be rewarded 100 times over.  Good luck and I hope you reach a place of harmony with your horse (and yourself)....being angry is a horrible place to be!
		
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Thank you, but pretty well versed and understanding of behaviour/pressure/release etc.  I am not angry, he is a baby and testing his boundaries... why would I be angry.


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## Queenbee (4 October 2012)

right, as riviting as all these opinions are, I have to go and prep for an interview for tomorrow.  I'll be staying online because of the April Jones thread but won't be able to answer any although I am not being rude and ignoring people.


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## Amymay (4 October 2012)

Queenbee said:



			why would I be angry.
		
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Because nastiness and violence is bourne of anger........

I have to say that I'm sure some of your issues would be sorted in a matter of minutes if he could be turned out with company.


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## Pale Rider (4 October 2012)

Sound pretty angry to me, stupid too.


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## Amymay (4 October 2012)

Pale Rider said:



			Sound pretty angry to me, stupid too.
		
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Sorry, I have to defend QB here and say she is the least stupid person you'll find on this forum


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## JenHunt (4 October 2012)

it's not being mean - or no more mean than a herd member would be if he got stroppy with them!! think about it - if he started pushing a "superior" horse around in the herd, they'd go "haha, very funny, now f*&k off...." and do it again next time he tried, until such point as he got the idea that they were boss and that's all about it.

no-one is suggesting you lay into him, but saying NO clearly, and maybe using a slap with a crop as the "kick or bite" from the boss is quite acceptable IMO!

good luck, and be careful. please make sure you've got a hat on when handling him if he's taken to going up!


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## Sarah1 (4 October 2012)

Pale Rider said:



			stupid too.
		
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Lovely.


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## mandwhy (4 October 2012)

I totally understand your frustration Queenbee... From your previous posts I know that you are a fair and kind horse handler so I think you are being led astray a bit by this trainer because you respect them. I consider you far more experienced than I but surely you must know that a 'pasting' is different to a short sharp reprimand for bad behaviour. An animal has to associate a smack or tap with something it is doing or there is no point, so for biting as you may remember I had a big problem with and was pussyfooting around making his behaviour more dominating every time I let him get away with it, I would push my silly young loan TB's face away, sometimes sharply when he went for me, and if he ever managed to bite me he would get a smack on the shoulder, neck or sometimes a bop on the nose depending on the malice I felt was behind it. He stopped biting me within a week of me starting doing this (i was starting think why isn't it instant but it gradually stopped) and he hardly ever tries it or disrespects me majorly now because I finally nipped it in the bud by dealing with lower level objectionable behaviour . With rearing and general bolshiness I think it is difficult to win. You have to issue a reprimand the very moment something happens so that it is very clear. If a horse rears, comes down, you smack it repeatedly, there is a good chance the horse is not going to associate that with the rearing especially if it carries on for a minute. It will probably make them have respect for you, but probably not in the way you want, and if it doesn't work he will retaliate and it only takes one strike of a hoof to hurt you pretty badly, believe me I've tried everything! Squaring up to the dominant horse who would come in on the lunge or turn at me whilst leading, a smack would aggravate him and he would get very aggressive, so I decided not to continue to do so. Sometimes you have to shout, show you are not afraid despite their behaviour, finish what you were doing, and leave it there for the day to come back next time and try some things before it gets heated. 

Just try to give short sharp reprimands with your voice primarily the moment he steps out of line at a low level, and hopefully it won't escalate to this behaviour, if it does it could be a one off, it doesn't mean they will think its ok to do it all the time as long as you keep working on their respect in general, I think sometimes it will take a few days to get into their head, it can't be instant.

Good luck, I know you are reluctant to do this so I hope you think twice about it and find the right options for you


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## Brightbay (4 October 2012)

amymay said:



			I have to say that I'm sure some of your issues would be sorted in a matter of minutes if he could be turned out with company.
		
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100% agreed.


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## Luci07 (4 October 2012)

I see a lot of babies come through the yard and how they rapidly change. There are some horses who, while not a walk over, would never ever need to be reprimanded. Sometimes you will get one who suddenly finds their feet and really pushes their boundaries and can then become unsafe. I am not a fan of really dominating a horse strongly as it does not go anywhere towards building a good relationship but I really do accept there are some who truly need to firmly put in their place. I had a youngster who a, grew massively and b, had time off when ill. When he then came back into work having had time off he became the absolute git from hell. I ended up selling him to a very large man as he had no respect for me and I got fed up with having everything ending up as a flat out fight. And yes I had professional  help and tried for months but in the end I cut my losses and sold him on, honestly. I have another youngster who, while green and tries his luck from time to time, is nothing like the previous one and I am enjoying him. However, prior to actually having my big lad, I, like a lost of the posters on here would have been at a loss to understand why someone would take this course of action with any horse! Having been in the receiving end of it I now have sympathy. I would also say there is a huge world of difference between a scared or uncertain horse and one is just plain throwing their weight around.


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## EMC (4 October 2012)

Be prepared to feel ashamed. 

I lost my temper and elbowed Fred back when he tried to kick me, complete with a very loud 'No' thinking that a horse in the field would give him a kick too if he pushed his luck. It didn't work and I felt so ashamed I could barely face him. I should have walked away, calmed down and gone back to work through whatever the issue was rationally.

We have the advantage of having control over our emotions and the intelligence to think through our actions, once you've crossed that line where do you go from there?

Sending you vibes to find courage to do the right thing, whatever that may be in your situation.


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## YasandCrystal (4 October 2012)

amymay said:



			I have to say that I'm sure some of your issues would be sorted in a matter of minutes if he could be turned out with company.
		
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Agreed. I see it with my 2 yr old recently turned out with a 7 yr old and he is fast learning how low down the order he now is


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## Sarah1 (4 October 2012)

EMC said:



			Be prepared to feel ashamed. 

I lost my temper and elbowed Fred back when he tried to kick me, complete with a very loud 'No' thinking that a horse in the field would give him a kick too if he pushed his luck. It didn't work and I felt so ashamed I could barely face him. I should have walked away, calmed down and gone back to work through whatever the issue was rationally.

We have the advantage of having control over our emotions and the intelligence to think through our actions, once you've crossed that line where do you go from there?

Sending you vibes to find courage to do the right thing, whatever that may be in your situation.
		
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Your horse tried to kick you & you ended up feeling ashamed because you reacted to that?  You should have reacted to it, it's unacceptable! 

It's ok walking away but if it's a one-off spur of the moment thing then the horse isn't going to remember it 10 minutes later, they need a response immediately.


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## Luci07 (4 October 2012)

YasandCrystal said:



			Agreed. I see it with my 2 yr old recently turned out with a 7 yr old and he is fast learning how low down the order he now is 

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Didnt work with my 17.1 and growing 5 year old. Short of a flat out and dangerous punch up, nothing else WOULD stand upto him or if we thought they might, we were not prepared to test it out.


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## Buds_mum (4 October 2012)

Bud's breeder breeds shire horses, it is well known around here if you have a bad mannered horse either in the field with his mates or with humans that you can turn out with his shire geldings, they are so passive and calm and but boy do they put a bolshy horse in its place. I'm sure Bud is like how he is because of his upbringing with shires.


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## Oberon (4 October 2012)

Buds_mum said:



			Bud's breeder breeds shire horses, it is well known around here if you have a bad mannered horse either in the field with his mates or with humans that you can turn out with his shire geldings, they are so passive and calm and but boy do they put a bolshy horse in its place. I'm sure Bud is like how he is because of his upbringing with shires.
		
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It has to be this 

[YOUTUBE]FZplMhvGGuQ[/YOUTUBE]


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## TigerTail (4 October 2012)

lmfao Oberon thats awesome


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## Amymay (4 October 2012)

Love it Oberon.


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## Buds_mum (4 October 2012)

Oberon said:



			It has to be this 

[YOUTUBE]FZplMhvGGuQ[/YOUTUBE]
		
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Brilliant  very similar haha!!!


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## Amymay (4 October 2012)

EMC said:



			Be prepared to feel ashamed. 

I lost my temper and elbowed Fred back when he tried to kick me, complete with a very loud 'No' thinking that a horse in the field would give him a kick too if he pushed his luck. It didn't work and I felt so ashamed I could barely face him. I should have walked away, calmed down and gone back to work through whatever the issue was rationally.
		
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Clearly you have nothing to be ashamed of, and many of us would have done the exact same in your situation - if not worse.


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## Equilibrium Ireland (4 October 2012)

I have to laugh at Oberon's "OI" thing too. That's my go to. When I get my barn voice they're like Uh oh, fun and games are over. Obviously barn voice is used very sparingly but it works. Not screaming it's a low deep voice that looks like it wouldn't come out of a 5ft person.

The first time my mare went to a show she didn't want to go home. I was leading her and her trainer was coaxing nicely trying to be really nice. Now I'm looking at the look on her face and it's the, ehh nope don't feel like it. So after 15 mins of her standing half in the box I said here you take her to her trainer. Went behind and in the barn voice I said " get up that ramp now." I could have said would you like pasta for dinner. It was just the voice let her know enough madam. She sauntered up as if to say, geez ok I'm going. 

Terri


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## planete (4 October 2012)

All these replies are really a waste of time.  You cannot teach people to read horses and react right with split second timing over the internet.


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## Devonshire dumpling (4 October 2012)

Queenbee said:



			Thank you  it is never ever my first course of action and I have tried many tactics I know, my YO is one of the most respected horsewomen around and this is not normally her attitude either.  My trainer who backed him is not known for being 'a softy' but she too tried other methods, I knew he would have tested her, especially since he was sooooo good when he came home, to me.  I trust her, in that I know her reactions will be measured and appropriate so if he was hit, I know she would have had a reason.  That is why I called her, she told me they had had a point at which she had to take a crop to him, he was nasty and challenging... I know this can be his nature on the ground... she told me it worked and from the horse I took home it obviously did, which gives me confidence to do it... one good thing is that she reitterated his softy side, in that he quickly wimps out of his challenge of authority if you front up to him this way and his behavour settles almost straight away.
		
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I won't be sending you any vibes, but will be sending your horse vibes, sounds like he/she is being a horrid little teenager, but pain and anger won't work.... being around other horses to effectively put him in his place will work ,and a no nonsense attitude from you, no treating it like  a pet dog, have strong boundaries.
I know someone who struggled to get their horse to do as it was told, so they waved a lunge whip around, it worked for a while then it wouldnt do something else, so it got a wack on it's bum, it behaved for a few mths then, it decided it didn't want to do something again ,out came the lunge whip and the horse double barrelled them.  I wouldn't EVER pick a fight with something I couldn't win, and remember, every horse is capable of killing us, they just choose not to because we have educated them properly!

It's like someone letting a kid talk to them like **** for yrs, then suddenly punishing that child, well that's not fair on the child.  Sounds like your trained cocked up by taking a crop to a youngster, it's them to blame and yet you still feel compelled to follow their advice.  I know plenty of horsemen/women who are well respected and been around horses for 50 yrs, doesn't mean they have been doing it correctly for 50 yrs!


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## kirstykate (4 October 2012)

planete said:



			All these replies are really a waste of time.  You cannot teach people to read horses and react right with split second timing over the internet.
		
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Very wise words


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## fburton (4 October 2012)

Cortez said:



			Indeed there is! And beating (definition, perhaps? I'd say a beating was a prolonged attack. I was always taught the rule of 3: never give more than 3 slaps/whacks/whatever) does not work, it only frightens the horse.
		
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One is enough, imo. If you can give the three whacks in under a second, you may get away with it, but longer than that it is likely that the horse will already be considering you as an aggressor and something to be feared. Moreover, the final whacks are no longer directly punishing the original behaviour if they arrive too late. For the same reason (horse's short attention span), your first whack should come _instantly_, not seconds later.


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## Cortez (4 October 2012)

Pale Rider said:



			Sound pretty angry to me, stupid too.
		
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PR, you are very fond of calling people stupid. I wonder, would you do that if they were standing in front of you? QB is blatently not a stupid person. I think you are very, very rude.


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## cblover (4 October 2012)

You do sound angry by the very admission of your intention to be violent.  If you are 'well versed' and have an adequate understanding of horse behaviour, you should be able to apply your knowledge and support your youngster through this period in his life.  

We lead them into our human world and its up to us to communicate with them and build a partnership they understand, not the other way round.  Imagine if you were dropped into a different country, different culture and people were shouting and hitting you because you didn't understand what was being asked of you.....is that your fault?  I think not.

Your horse is asking questions and not getting the answers he needs...therefore he's making the rules up for himself!  It can often just be the very small changes you make that can have a huge and positive effect of our horses! 

I'm not questioning your knowledge or experience but we all have more to learn and each horse we encounter will teach us new things....if we're prepared to listen.  I wish you all the best with him!


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## 3BayGeldings (4 October 2012)

Following on from Oberon, I do very similar. I've never beaten up my horses - they've had smacks on the shoulders and the bolshiest has had my foot in his gut before when he barged over the top of me. But I can turn around and face them, and use my 'fun is over' voice and they will all back away from me and instantly know I mean business. If I then march over to them then they'll turn tail and leg it, before creeping back over after a few minutes to try and make nice again. I am very much their leader, and I earned that without ever 'pasting' them.


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## fburton (4 October 2012)

planete said:



			All these replies are really a waste of time.  You cannot teach people to read horses and react right with split second timing over the internet.
		
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True - although it is useful for people at least to realize (if they didn't already) that split second timing is what's needed. Delayed punishment is worse than useless.


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## starbar (4 October 2012)

I really can't be bothered to read all the replies but you shouldn't have a youngster.  End of.
As for psyching yourself up for a fight/beating your horse.  I am pretty appalled.  I have youngsters and have had bolshy, big unhandled horss too and have never had to do this.
Get yourself some professional help with your horse or sell it.  You shouldn't have it with that attitude.


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## Pale Rider (4 October 2012)

PR, you are very fond of calling people stupid. I wonder, would you do that if they were standing in front of you? QB is blatently not a stupid person. I think you are very, very rude.

Not fond of saying stuff like that, wish I didn't have to.

This like everything else is a training issue, nasty and violent have no place in training, neither does punishment.

I feel for a young horse, not someone contemplating being violent.

People may think I'm rude, I don't really care, but my horses know I'm not rude, nasty or violent towards them.


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## MerrySherryRider (4 October 2012)

OP you need a new mentor before your youngster is ruined. A firm, no nonsense approach is miles away from planning a pasting. 
There's nothing fluffy about being quiet, kind and fair. You only need to shout and slap when the horse doesn't understand or is frustrated over another issue. Owner/trainer problem, not horse's problem

Get the horse out with some others. Individual turnout should be banned for youngsters.


The trainer and YO do not seem like the kind of people to emulate.


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## Pale Rider (4 October 2012)

Get the horse out with some others. Individual turnout should be banned for youngsters.

Agreed.


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## Luci07 (4 October 2012)

I really do wonder if those with SUCH strongly worded and expert opinions actually have much experience with youngsters? And by experience I do mean more than just a couple!


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## Queenbee (4 October 2012)

starbar said:



			I really can't be bothered to read all the replies but you shouldn't have a youngster.  End of.
As for psyching yourself up for a fight/beating your horse.  I am pretty appalled.  I have youngsters and have had bolshy, big unhandled horss too and have never had to do this.
Get yourself some professional help with your horse or sell it.  You shouldn't have it with that attitude.
		
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You know absolutely nothing about me or my horses, and I could respond further but would probably be banned



horserider said:



			OP you need a new mentor before your youngster is ruined. A firm, no nonsense approach is miles away from planning a pasting. 
There's nothing fluffy about being quiet, kind and fair. You only need to shout and slap when the horse doesn't understand or is frustrated over another issue. Owner/trainer problem, not horse's problem

Get the horse out with some others. Individual turnout should be banned for youngsters.


The trainer and YO do not seem like the kind of people to emulate.
		
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I am not planning a pasting... i did not go up to him tonight and beat the living crap out of him for no reason, in fact I did not touch him because he was well behaved and respectful.  I do plan to react if he is naughty... my choice, he will know that the reaction is a response to bad behaviour because it will be timely and relative.  You are welcome to come and shout/slap/wave at my horse if you want... I will video it and put it on youtube... do you really think I haven't done it?  Yes its an owner problem, I have a horse thats being a tit, and yes its a horse problem, its his character to be this way at times.  I am not trying to emulate anyone, I am not following anyones instructions.  When I discussed this with my trainer, I already had come to the conclusion that I would probably have to actually hit him as he doesn't respond to anything else, growling or hitting with hand may help but when he decides to turn and hoof you its not safe... a crop/lunge whip does not have to be any 
harsher, but it gives you distance for safety.  My trainer merely reiterated what I was already thinking.


As I said he was much better yesterday and this morning, it could be that the electric fence incident was enough to shock the bejesus out of him and bring him down a few pegs, he was much more docile and respectful, we are continuing to walk with a rope through the mouth and a lunge whip in hand but he has done nothing wrong so it has not been used... did not even have to growl at him

right off to prep for interview


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## rockysmum (4 October 2012)

Good god Queenbee, you deserve a medal 

I actually dont think you will be very good at the nasty and violent.  Any normal person would not have had your patience and tolerance on this thread


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## SpottyTB (4 October 2012)

Lol seems that everyone's got there *lets shoot QB down* hats on atm... 

I think by the sounds of it you've all read a little too much into the whole "pasting", think QB feels it's like that but tbh all she means is probably a tug on the chifney (without cutting his tongue off or making his mouth bleed ) and a bloody firm *GET UP* followed by - if he needs it a smack on the shoulder.. 

I can't see QB beating him up to the point of abuse (!!), tbh all youngsters try it on - you get the occasional lovely one who dosen't try it on .. but tbh you can either pussy foot around a naughty horse saying "no, no, stop that" and end up in hospital - like i did (bolshy youngster took off whilst being led to field, i ran to cut her off and had my hands up saying woah .. and bolshy youngster mowed me over, kicked me in the head, flipped me over backwards, knocked me out for 5 minutes and i was rushed to hospital in an ambulance - still cannot remember anything from that day or the day before/after). 

all i did was put her in a chiffney (after reading how to use it and consulting my instructor) and gave her a tug, followed by a whack on the shoulder and a *GET UP NOW* and she is now (after about 6 months of leading her in and out of the field in a chiffney) is a lovely lovely mare - anyone can lead her in (children as well) and she's been out of the chiffney a year now.. (so far so good  ).

QB - Like others have warned, be careful and seek advice on proper use of the chiffney (i've heard some horrid stories of mis use of them) but don't pussy foot around him or you could end up injured --> it's really not worth it.. horses are big beasties and tbh i don't think MUCH you could do (in the way of whacking them on the shoulder/under the tummy) could hurt them.


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## thewonderhorse (4 October 2012)

OP I'm with you. Although I don't agree with violence against any animal. Youngsters and other horses will try it on, to see what they can get away with. Personally I think a lot of posts on here are being totally unfair. I'm sure that if a horse they were riding was misbehaving they would give it a smack on the shoulder so I don't see how its any different on the ground. There is nothing worse than a dangerous horse, and he sounds dangerous. They know their strength and should not be frightened of you but respect you and your space. Good luck OP


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## Queenbee (4 October 2012)

SpottyTB said:



			Lol seems that everyone's got there *lets shoot QB down* hats on atm... 

I think by the sounds of it you've all read a little too much into the whole "pasting", think QB feels it's like that but tbh all she means is probably a tug on the chifney (without cutting his tongue off or making his mouth bleed ) and a bloody firm *GET UP* followed by - if he needs it a smack on the shoulder.. 

I can't see QB beating him up to the point of abuse (!!), tbh all youngsters try it on - you get the occasional lovely one who dosen't try it on .. but tbh you can either pussy foot around a naughty horse saying "no, no, stop that" and end up in hospital - like i did (bolshy youngster took off whilst being led to field, i ran to cut her off and had my hands up saying woah .. and bolshy youngster mowed me over, kicked me in the head, flipped me over backwards, knocked me out for 5 minutes and i was rushed to hospital in an ambulance - still cannot remember anything from that day or the day before/after). 

all i did was put her in a chiffney (after reading how to use it and consulting my instructor) and gave her a tug, followed by a whack on the shoulder and a *GET UP NOW* and she is now (after about 6 months of leading her in and out of the field in a chiffney) is a lovely lovely mare - anyone can lead her in (children as well) and she's been out of the chiffney a year now.. (so far so good  ).

QB - Like others have warned, be careful and seek advice on proper use of the chiffney (i've heard some horrid stories of mis use of them) but don't pussy foot around him or you could end up injured --> it's really not worth it.. horses are big beasties and tbh i don't think MUCH you could do (in the way of whacking them on the shoulder/under the tummy) could hurt them. 



Click to expand...

Thanks Spotty xx I am used to chiffneys... had to use one on him when he was a colt and waiting for gelding.  Promise I wont break his jaw or anything  also, since he is generally rugged, the whip wont even bleeding hurt him, although i dont think it would if he wasn't rugged! More the feel and the loud sound but if he gets very bad I will dope him, clip him and flog him raw


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## tafyx (4 October 2012)

As my horse will confirm, and he is not a youngster, there is only one cure for naughty equines and that is work, work and more work!  good for you for wanting to get a hold of him now.  good luck.


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## guido16 (4 October 2012)

For what it's worth, I have had many many youngsters, from birth to 6 or 7 year old.

I have had a few big beasties that have had a hiding from me. Well timed and quick. Not a prolonged attack, just a bloody hiding. The same way a dominant mare would do to an out of control herd member. They have then, by me, been sent into a corner on their own to realise the herd leader has kicked them out the herd. Gives them time to realise its not a safe place to be and a change of attitude is required.

None have been scarred for life, they are all well behaved, and just as well as they are all 16.2HH +. I can not have dangerous babies at that height and weight.


So I will now sit back and get ready for the pasting from you all....popcorn anyone?


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## SpottyTB (4 October 2012)

Queenbee said:



			Thanks Spotty xx I am used to chiffneys... had to use one on him when he was a colt and waiting for gelding.  Promise I wont break his jaw or anything  also, since he is generally rugged, the whip wont even bleeding hurt him, although i dont think it would if he wasn't rugged! More the feel and the loud sound but if he gets very bad I will dope him, clip him and flog him raw

Click to expand...

No probs QB, good to hear your familiar with them.. its my bible when Gem turns into a dangerous moron (luckily not anymore), i agree completely with them - if used by the right person but family don't agree with them at all.. so we have the whole chiffney vs not debate all the titme 

Lol don't say that last sentence to loudly, people might actually believe you ..


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## thewonderhorse (4 October 2012)

I'll have some of that popcorn!


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## thewonderhorse (4 October 2012)

Oh and QB. Make sure your horse has the RSPCA on speed dial!


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## SpottyTB (4 October 2012)

Guido16 - i'll sit back and wait for a pasting too ... can i have some popcorn please!!!


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## Queenbee (4 October 2012)

thewonderhorse said:



			Oh and QB. Make sure your horse has the RSPCA on speed dial! 

Click to expand...

ha ha, course I will... the never do jack all  for horses anyway anyway


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## Queenbee (4 October 2012)

right... cramming for interview and being very important... night all x


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## horseandshoes77 (4 October 2012)

Tbh none of my business what you do...but id like to see you correct my horses with a pasting lol...there would be one person pasted ...i have a youngster who has tried and tested boundaries but has quickly been reminded without any harm or force and shes a dream...i dont think this behaviour would have happened had you had continued reinforcement throughout, my oldest two can still test the boundaries but with the mare its better to ask and reinforce my status with moving her feet than pasting her because i know i would end up losing badly, i cant understand anyone who would think right now im going to get brutal i could understand someone maybe losing there temper in the heat of the moment but i cant see how you going in with a right your going to get it attitude will help at all...i hope we dont see a im in hospital now thread off you soon !!


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## Blitzen (4 October 2012)

My youngster became bolshy for a few weeks earlier this year, slowly pushing the boundaries as far as he could get away with. I didn't even realise he was doing it at first it was so gradual, until one day he barged past me when I was leading him in, took me totally by surprise, dragged the rope from my hand almost knocking me flying and beggered off up the field. So the next time I fetched him in I had I had my sj whip (short with 2 flaps of leather on the end so nice and 'slappy' sounding) tucked in the top of my boot - he started to pull a bit, then tried to push past me, so I grabbed my whip and gave him a belt on the chest. One decent, sharp slap, the second he started pushing me, and growled "Giiiiive Uuuuup!". He leapt backwards, stood stock still for a second looking at me all surprised, then came and stood at my side with his head lowered like he was saying "Christ! Sorry mum", and walked up to the yard with me like a little lamb. He's never done it again  
(another one here who didn't read your OP as "I'm steeling myself for a full blown, unprovoked assault on my horse next time I see him"  you know your boy well enough to know how much 'force' is needed, and when to use it. I'm an advocate of one decent, hard, well timed slap, over dozens of half-hearted tugs on leadropes or pokes at shoulders, any day. Horse will know when he has pushed you too far, and won't do it again)
Similar approach with mum's gelding, who would chew the stable doors if he was tied outside on the yard. We knew he was going to do it, so I hid in the stable next door to him armed with a couple of rubber o/r boots. I let him chew for a few seconds then popped up, lobbed the o/r boot at him and bobbed down again quickly. He jumped out of his skin as had no idea where the boot had come from! I waited another minute til he started to chew again, peeked over the door and pelted the other boot at his bum, then bobbed back down. Mum was watching across the yard and said his face was a picture - he caught on that it was "the stables" chucking boots at him if he chewed the door pretty quickly, and hasn't done it since  
Best of luck with your young lad, and also for your interview 
L x


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## Kallibear (4 October 2012)

QueenBee: did he live out with other horses whilst he was away for breaking? If he's now come home to live back in solitary confinment, he will be extremely unhappy.

To be honest, if he lives by himself I'm not in the slightest bit suprised he's turning into a problem. He's 3.5 yrs old and has not a single friend in the world  Very sad. No wonder he's turning all his emotions and pent up frustration you! You've read what Roo is live WITH friends, I dread to think what he'd be like with no friends. A bulshy bulshy neurotic wreck I think. 

Your intital post is very misleading and doesn't put you in a good light at all  You specifically talk about getting into a fight (intentionally) and beating your horse! Thankfully most on here do know what you're normally like but it's not suprising it's been taken the wrong way. YOU said it, it's not even just been implied.

I'm all for giving a bulshy brat a sharp shock. You often don't even need to hit them: just yelling and running at them with arms waving is enough to make them think their world is about to end.  HOWEVER, it's a short term, instant reaction that does not solve the long term, deeper rooted issue. It MUST be backed up by further, calmer ground work. That is maybe something you should get help with as, if it's got to this stage, it's obviously not worked properly.

And PLEASE give your 3yr old some friends. Turning him out with a couple of dominate mares (turning him out with something he'll just bully won't help in the slightest) will most likely sort the issues overnight.


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## Queenbee (4 October 2012)

He is not in solitary confinement he has horses on every side and grooms with 2 of them over the gate an hedge he also gets play time in the school with other horses. He didn't give a flying duck about being in 'solitary confinement' for the first god knows how long since moving there and he will be fine when worked. There is no way I'm moving him from the yard he is at its the best yard I've been at in every way in my opinion and I trust the people there with him if I'm away. I have good hacks for him, good facilities and a wonderful friendly yard where I am happy and for the most part he has been happy and relaxed and going really really well.


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## Queenbee (4 October 2012)

Also can't quote as on phone but no I didn't say I was going to pick a fight unprovoked I said he was going to be reprimanded, and I wouldn't pick a fight when the yard was busy, as I I wouldn't be handling him and putting myself in a situation where I may have to reprimand when people were there as it isn't safe! Perhaps that's clearer although why no one actually read the word 'reprimanded' in my original post but saw 'pick a fight' in flashy red neon is beyond me!


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## Kallibear (4 October 2012)

He still lives by himself. He cannot run about with other horses. He cannot get his ass kicked for being a cheeky brat (THE most valuable lesson a young horse learns). He can't even stand nose to tail, dozing. He has no friends. 

His behaviour can be fixed with ground work and good handling but you're really built yourself a mountain to climb by having him by himself!

And you clearly said you were going to 'paste' him. Which, without actually going to look up the slang dictionary, means 'to pick a fight with and beat'. No bloody wonder people got the wrong end of the stick!


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## Ginger_ninja (4 October 2012)

I feel like everyone has really ran away with what QueenBee is classing as a 'pasting'. I haven't read all the reply's but she clearly has stated that she isn't going to walk over to her horse and beat the s**t out of it; it's just going to get a few quick wacks after the crime is committed!

I for one have no issue with this and personally with my own horse I have always found a growl and a jab in the shoulder with my elbow has stopped the behaviour faster than trying to assert my control by getting him to move his feet. Now im not saying that keeping a horse busy after they have been naughty wont work, but all horses are different and none of you know apart (from the OP herself) whether this is just a naughty teenager, or malicious threatening behaviour that needs to be responded to in a way that would reflect how he would be reprimanded by a herd leader. Personally, I doubt any clobbering from a human could match a kicking session in the ribs by a pissed off boss in a herd.

Just my 2 cents, but hey what do I know anyway!


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## thewonderhorse (4 October 2012)

*head hits table* my word!!, I'm suprised you haven't been already arrested Qb.


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## devonlass (4 October 2012)

Totally agree with all those that have said about company.

I had issues with my lad and company when sent for starting so made the decision to keep him on his own at home.He seemed fine,for over two years he seemed fine,and I defended fiercely my decision to keep him alone on the basis he was not bothered.

I could not have been more wrong,and am happy to hold my hands up and say so.

Won't go into detail as would be here all day,but in his ridden work and general demeanour he has changed so much for the better since I got my second horse.Much more settled and just seems happier in his own skin.My other horse isn't even overly nice to him,bit of a bully TBH but clearly company of his own kind (even not very good company) is a lot more important to his well being and balance than i ever realised.

Chuck him out with some others,give it a couple of weeks and I bet you will have a horse with a totally different attitude.

Don't kid yourself with the 'he's been fine up to now' argument either.I swore my lad was fine for over two years,turns out he wasn't he just didn't know how to make it clear to me.

Not going to comment on your plan too much your horse your choice,but pick your battle wisely,you'll just have twice as much ground to make up if you lose.
I would not be paying any trainer whose only advice was to resort to a 'pasting' have to say,any idiot can come up with that.Shouldn't the best trainer in the area have a few more ideas and methods than that??

Good luck with your lad,if you get it right now you'll have a biddable and trusting partner for life


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## Amymay (5 October 2012)

Is there a reason he can't go out with others. Grooming over a hedge is not sufficient interaction, and doing it over a gate OS dangerous. But it's not just the grooming aspect. It's the physical interaction that so important for all horses, but particularly young ones.


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## Moon (5 October 2012)

Haha i love how an awful lot of people took your op completly the wrong way. In fact a large majority agreed with what you had said in using force to reprimand behaviour, said they had done it themselves then went on to say how disgusted they were at you considering 'violence'. Well QB, i know you dont know me but i followed your story of Ebony closely and am looking forward to the next part of her tale  x


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## Queenbee (5 October 2012)

Yes amymay there is a reason, it's yard policy. He has had plenty of interaction with other horses and good manners instilled by them just not there. There is no danger with the gate, they can't get themselves caught in the bars it's not that sort of gate. For the most part he is actually far happier on his own, he had a real problem being close to other horses after he lost ebony I wouldn't have put him in a field with them... He seemed to resent them  he goes out in his field roles, tail up, skips around, head down, eats, then wanders off to see his mate at the top of the field where the hedge is, then settles back to eating. He's a horse that would quite happily be isolated in a stable all day if left up to him, he is also a horse that prefers human company to horse company. I'm not stubborn and ignorant on this, I got company for ebony because she needed it, he doesn't he has a good level of company not as much as he could but nowhere near as little as he could either. I also have to say that other than his recent blip I have never seen a bunch of more happy healthy bright and well balanced horses at the yard... And all of them kept individually, not saying its the best practice for all horses, but it's certainly not bad for them


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## emmah1979 (5 October 2012)

I know what it's like to have a youngster when they start getting feisty!  My motto, which works for me, is to always have a very clear differential between good behaviour and bad behaviour.  Good behaviour is rewarded by me being calm, quiet and gentle, relaxed etc whereas bad behaviour is immediately highlighted as being unacceptable.  The reaction to the bad behaviour depends on how extreme it is, so actually most things are easily rectified by a ferocious growl (which works well because it's used so rarely) but something like a cheeky nip by the youngster or a sidekick whilst being led or anything worse gets a stiffer, short, sharp shock and then rewarded when they begin to behave again.  Basically a very clear message about what behaviour wasn't acceptable.  With this type of handling my youngster was well mannered, friendly and placid. 

My only other experience was that any horse but particularly young ones seem to find it notoriously difficult to concentrate and behave when they have any excess energy, so if I thought that any bad behaviour was due to this I would firstly get rid of this energy by putting him on the lunge until he looked tired and ready to listen.  This usually did the job.  

For me occasional firm discipline is preferable to constant niggling and nagging.  However, ultimately it depends on your situation and I think also what type of personality you have (hope that doesn't sound too fluffy).  Everyone is different and does things differently, particularly horsey people, but I think most horses turn out ok despite this.


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## lastchancer (5 October 2012)

Pale Rider said:



			Sound pretty angry to me, stupid too.
		
Click to expand...

Maybe you could share some of your valuable advice with all of us stupid people, rather than just chipping in with snide comments.


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## Kaylum (5 October 2012)

Have a look at chiffneys and how to use them and get an experienced person to show you how to use one.  Seriously, we had a horse 17hh on full livery who would run off mess about and generally cause danger to YO and others, started leading him in a chiffney and there you go nothing.  Leads slowly, calmly and respectfully. When you have him leading properly with respect you can go back and start your ground work.  

You need respect which you don't have and it's scaring you as it would anyone.  So you need to start somewhere. 

What's he fed?


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## Auslander (5 October 2012)

lastchancer said:



			Maybe you could share some of your valuable advice with all of us stupid people, rather than just chipping in with snide comments.
		
Click to expand...

You'll be lucky! PR doesn't share his experience. He just bitches.

Never used to see so many badly behaved, rude horses before it became fashionable to treat horses like humans. I am no advocate of beating a horse, but have no hesitation in giving an unruly beast a whop with a short length of blue pipe ( in preference to a whip - because it makes a lot of noise, but doesn't hurt as much) while he is in mid sin. Funny how there are rarely any responses to people mentioning that horses in a herd situation will use far more force than a human can to instil good manners in a young hooligan.


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## MrsMozart (5 October 2012)

Hope it all goes ok QB 

I got the Dizz in last night. She came to my call (pleased me, pee'd off D - oops). She was good, other than pushing me out of the way with her body. She got a very sharp elbow rammed in her side and a very loud "Oi! Bog Off B!tch Face!", which made me a bit  as she had come to me, but one surprised look on her face later and then the softest sweetest mare ever . A dream to lead and handle . I know her. If I hadn't had the outburst, she'd have been an absolute witch. She needs a leader that offers love and security as standard, with firm reprimands thrown in as and when required


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## Kallibear (5 October 2012)

Auslander said:



			Funny how there are rarely any responses to people mentioning that horses in a herd situation will use far more force than a human can to instil good manners in a young hooligan.
		
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That's rather the point: he lives by himself and doesn't get any of that kind of interaction. He's prob not got a clue what he's done wrong, and quite possibly won't know how to react to a severe telling off.


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## FfionWinnie (5 October 2012)

QB the words you used "nasty" "violent" "pasting" are not conducive to sorting out a problem horse. 

If I came on here and said my 3.5 year old daughter is being rude and aggressive and I've had enough so I am going to get nasty and violent towards her and give her a pasting, would anyone agree it was a good course of action. I doubt it. 

I am not a namby pamby, I discipline my animals, they don't step out of line, but I don't have to get nasty, violent or hand out pastings to achieve this.


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## Auslander (5 October 2012)

Kallibear said:



			That's rather the point: he lives by himself and doesn't get any of that kind of interaction. He's prob not got a clue what he's done wrong, and quite possibly won't know how to react to a severe telling off.
		
Click to expand...

I don't see that it's the point at all. It could also be said that horses don't know why they have been kicked/bitten by older herd members when they first start to push their luck. 
If he doesn't yet know that being a bargy, pushy git is not acceptable - he will soon work it out if he receives a short sharp shock every time he does something rude. Ideally he would be out with others, but the OP doesn't have a choice. Therefore, she is taking responsibility for dishing out the discipline that he would get from another horse for bad behaviour.


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## Amymay (5 October 2012)

Moon said:



			Haha i love how an awful lot of people took your op completly the wrong way. In fact a large majority agreed with what you had said in using force to reprimand behaviour, said they had done it themselves then went on to say how disgusted they were at you considering 'violence'. *Well QB, i know you dont know me but i followed your story of Ebony closely and am looking forward to the next part of her tale  x*

Click to expand...

Clearly.  The horse is dead.


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## Amymay (5 October 2012)

Queenbee said:



			Yes amymay there is a reason, it's yard policy.
		
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Well that's a terrible shame.  But as you don't have a choice, there's not much you can do, sadly.




			For the most part he is actually far happier on his own, he had a real problem being close to other horses after he lost ebony I wouldn't have put him in a field with them... He seemed to resent them
		
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I think you're putting far to much human emotion on him here.

Anyway good luck with his progress.  He's a smashing horse and I'm sure will give you years of fun.


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## Auslander (5 October 2012)

amymay said:



			Clearly.  The horse is dead.

Click to expand...

QB is serialising the story of her life at the moment though. It's a good read.


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## Amymay (5 October 2012)

Auslander said:



			QB is serialising the story of her life at the moment though. It's a good read.
		
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Ah, I didn't realise.

Apologies Moon.


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## MagicMelon (5 October 2012)

So erm... OP you wanted your horse to get hurt when he kicked out at the fencing?  Wow, you must really not like him in which case sell him as someone else will. The fact your psyching yourself up to give your horse "a pasting" really is shocking. In my opinion you're not experienced enough to be dealing with a youngster if you cant teach him manners without turning to the use of a whip.  Too many people are like you and think beating a horse will sort a situation.  Sure, he'll probably have 'manners' of some form by the end of it but he'll be an extremely unhappy horse. You must have a really good relationship with him...  

And for the record I had a 3yo Welsh Cob (15.2hh so not tiny) who was hell when I bought him. He was seriously horrible and some people would definately have said he was dangerous at that stage. I gave him manners after a lot of simple hard work, not once was a whip used. As a result we ended up having the strongest bond Ive had in any horse Ive owned. You mention he is better kept on his own, IMO this is the worst thing you can do. As someone else has said, its a herd situation where manners and respect are taught. My welsh cob was kept by its owner on its own as a 2yo - this I firmly believe led to him simply not knowing what the rules where.


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## Sarah1 (5 October 2012)

FfionWinnie said:



			If I came on here and said my 3.5 year old daughter is being rude and aggressive and I've had enough so I am going to get nasty and violent towards her and give her a pasting, would anyone agree it was a good course of action. I doubt it.
		
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Totally different IMO and these type of posts that compare horses & children are completely ridiculous.

Maybe if your child was 600kg+, with lightning speed and could basically kill you if she so felt like it


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## Sarah1 (5 October 2012)

Auslander said:



			You'll be lucky! PR doesn't share his experience. He just bitches.

Never used to see so many badly behaved, rude horses before it became fashionable to treat horses like humans. I am no advocate of beating a horse, but have no hesitation in giving an unruly beast a whop with a short length of blue pipe ( in preference to a whip - because it makes a lot of noise, but doesn't hurt as much) while he is in mid sin. Funny how there are rarely any responses to people mentioning that horses in a herd situation will use far more force than a human can to instil good manners in a young hooligan.
		
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 at the PR comment and agree 100% with the rest!


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## Wagtail (5 October 2012)

I have a horse on my yard who sadly had had a few ' pastings' in the past. When he arrived on the yard a year ago, you couldn't touch his head. He is still a bit head shy and will never be the cheeky (in a nice way) chappie that is his real character. We are starting to see glimpses of it though. Yes, he as excellent manners and respects humans, but you can see a mile off that he has been 'pasted'. Owner actually has one instance on video where his previous owner was repeatedly beating him because he did not want to jump a huge trakaner. He ended up rearing and coming over backwards.

OP, I think you have used an unfortunate choice of words in your initial post, when really you mean a well timed smack. No wonder it has people up in arms. Also, what do you think a novice would think reading the first post? When you say "I spoke to the woman who backed him for me, and unfortunately it would appear that the method is old hat and simple... I actually agree with her, just needed to hear it. He needs a pasting." Maybe that it's the done thing?


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## FfionWinnie (5 October 2012)

Sarah1 said:



			Totally different IMO and these type of posts that compare horses & children are completely ridiculous.

Maybe if your child was 600kg+, with lightning speed and could basically kill you if she so felt like it 

Click to expand...

Did I compare horses with children, please show me where I did that. I think if you re read it you will find I was talking about the words used. 

No need to ridicule me for having an opinion either.


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## Sarah1 (5 October 2012)

FfionWinnie said:



			Did I compare horses with children, please show me where I did that. I think if you re read it you will find I was talking about the words used. 

No need to ridicule me for having an opinion either.
		
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That's how it read to me.

And I'm not ridiculing you btw.


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## Tinypony (5 October 2012)

"I am also to behave like I don't like him for a week or so because at hear he is a wuss and craves 'being liked'."

What does that mean?


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## Amymay (5 October 2012)

Tinypony said:



			"I am also to behave like I don't like him for a week or so because at hear he is a wuss and craves 'being liked'."

What does that mean?
		
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I think it means, he's rather a nice chap who enjoys his 'person's' company, and wants to please

Which is sadly even more unfortunate for him.......


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## Bobbly (5 October 2012)

OP, I haven't read all of the replies but would only offer this, my Welsh cob was a bolshy youngster, biting, barging, jumping around on the lead. Rather than resorting to a pasting I simply put the  lead rope over his nose through his head collar (or a chain) and carried a short hard whip, sometimes a cane. One misdemeanour resulted in a short sharp tug and a firm NO, quickly followed by a sharp smack across his chest with the cane. Whilst leading I carried the cane upright to his face in my left hand as a warning that biting was not allowed either. When ready to release him into the field I made him stand until I was ready and rewarded his good behaviour with a pat and a piece of carrot or a few pony nuts. Before long he stopped being a pig and whilst he is still keen and forward he will listen to me and the biting has long stopped.


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## Tinypony (5 October 2012)

I think all horses, apart from a very few, need company and want to be "right".  A horse kept in isolation will have a particular tendency to crave some sort of bonding with whatever creature it can get into contact with.  A horse that has lost a bonded friend possibly even more so.  A horse isn't going to understand that a human is being "off" with it because it's upset them.  And then, at the end of the week, does that mean returning to hugs and cuddles?  Because hugs and cuddles are often what makes horses bargy and invasive of space.  (As opposed to it being a situation where the horse doesn't push, but can be approached for "loving").
I know a lot of people will dismiss me as being a bunny hugger, but seriously op, it's your language and that of some other posters that makes me uncomfortable.  Many of the words being used here don't apply at all to the simple way that horses relate to the world.  They don't rationalise or decide to set out to piss us off, they just respond as horses do.  Your horse is just being a horse.  Using words like "nasty" and "violent" and other similar, to me that denotes a particular and quite aggressive, tense mindset.  I strongly feel that the language we use affects the way we think and act, so I suppose that is what bothers me in all of this.  
I know you won't take any notice of this, but maybe some will.  Maybe it's worth sometimes stepping back and thinking about why a horse is doing what it's doing, before planning to unleash hell on them.  Horses do these things because they are insecure, scared, worried, but very seldom from pure aggression.  Maybe the advice given by the person who broke your horse in gives some clues as to how they handled him, maybe the loss of Ebony is a factor, who knows?  If horses are handled roughly though, some will react protectively by showing what some people mistake for pure aggression, but the motivation is defensive.  
I've been lucky enough to be around some great horsemen and women.  They use words like "calm", "consistent", "neutral"... and whatever the horse is doing, they keep the emotion out of their language  and their energy level low.


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## Moon (5 October 2012)

I shall let you off amymay  x


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## Pale Rider (5 October 2012)

Thanks Tiny, some common sense, at last.


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## Amymay (5 October 2012)

Pale Rider said:



			Thanks Tiny, some common sense, at last.
		
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I agree.  It's a wonderfully written post.


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## Tinypony (5 October 2012)

I'm expecting ridicule, so thanks very much for that.


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## Caol Ila (5 October 2012)

I'll leave the horse training thing aside for the moment....

I have a horse who was more or less kept isolated from other horses from age 2-6, which is a crucial stage of equine social development.  I bought her as a rising 7-year old to discover that she was a danger to herself and others when turned out in a herd.  We gave it a good go for about a year, hoping she would learn the necessary social skills, but her behaviour towards fieldmates never really improved so I sadly concluded individual turn-out was inevitable.  The horse is now 19 and has never had a herd ever since her short stint at 7 years old and she never will, and that's a damned shame.  For her, and for me as well, since finding yards with suitable turn-out arrangements is a pain in the butt.  

The moral of the story: don't deprive your youngsters of the opportunity to develop their equine social skills.  They might end up like my horse, a lifetime of isolation.


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## Amymay (5 October 2012)

Tinypony said:



			I'm expecting ridicule, so thanks very much for that.  

Click to expand...

Why would anyone ridicule what you've written.  It's sensible, educated and spot on.


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## Tinypony (5 October 2012)

So I'll just add a bit more...
A newly started youngster will no doubt have had some work put into establishing what is considered to be a "good" contact and maybe even a soft mouth.  I know a chiffney might be what some need to make them safe, but what effect is it going to have on that new young mouth?  Surely that might give even the conventional/common sense... whatever... among us some pause for thought?


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## eahotson (5 October 2012)

he best person around horses that I have ever met is a horse driver.Over the years he has handled and broken them all.Old, young, small,tall, quiet and not so quiet.I have never heard him raise his voice let alone a hand to a horse.The all leave him with lovely manners as well.


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## Pale Rider (5 October 2012)

There is nothing wrong with taking a full faculty learner from birth to backing, allowing it to 'be a horse' with similar youngsters, who also know nothing, and teach it nothing.

Except it doesn't work.


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## Amymay (5 October 2012)

Tinypony said:



			So I'll just add a bit more...
A newly started youngster will no doubt have had some work put into establishing what is considered to be a "good" contact and maybe even a soft mouth.  I know a chiffney might be what some need to make them safe, but what effect is it going to have on that new young mouth?  Surely that might give even the conventional/common sense... whatever... among us some pause for thought?
		
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It's an interesting thought actually, and one I hadn't considered.  

However, I don't recall any of the youngstock I've been around having a chiffney in come to think of it.....  If needed it would be a bridle or a controller.


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## Amymay (5 October 2012)

Pale Rider said:



			There is nothing wrong with taking a full faculty learner from birth to backing, allowing it to 'be a horse' with similar youngsters, who also know nothing, and teach it nothing.

Except it doesn't work.
		
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In English please......


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## Tinypony (5 October 2012)

amymay said:



			It's an interesting thought actually, and one I hadn't considered.  

However, I don't recall any of the youngstock I've been around having a chiffney in come to think of it.....  If needed it would be a bridle or a controller.
		
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I treat all of my horses' mouths like some sort of precious and delicate thing Amymay.  They are so sensitive that they can nip the top off a thistle avoiding the nasty spines, I try to hold that in my mind when I ride. A young horse's mouth is so soft and supple that they feel the lightest twitch of our fingers down the rein.  My older horse came to me with a hard mouth and I rode him bitless for a year to let his lips soften and recover before putting a bit back in.  I want the most sensitive of communication with their mouths and so that's one reason why I never use any bit of metal in the mouth as a blunt instrument for control.

My Arab mare retired at 6, having been backed and ridden but never bitted.  Even now at the age of 14 her mouth is small and supple like a youngsters, not stretched and rough at the corners.


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## Ladyinred (5 October 2012)

I have avoided this thread because it was obvious where it was going and although I deplore what she is saying here I do like the OP.

However, thank goodness for the reasonable, sensible voices that have appeared on the last couple of pages.. the voices belonging to people that actually understand horses and know that violence merely begets violence and is never an answer.


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## showpony (5 October 2012)

Maybe invest in a Dually Headcollar? Interesting to see this post as  happened to watch a re run of one of Monty Roberts sessions last night & he worked on a mare who had incredibly bad manners on the ground - similar to your horse! 
24mins later she was a different horse. Maybe see if you can find the video online somewhere - the horse used was called Lizzy


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## Tinypony (5 October 2012)

Whatever the tool, the handler needs to know how to use it correctly.  Then consistency is the key.  No wierd and wonderful anthropomorphic stuff about pretending not to like the horse for a week.  Just like the horse because he's yours and treat him fairly and consistently.  And never, ever, let him move in on you and crowd you.  (If you want a hug approach him with respect to do it).  No drama, just calmly make sure that he never crowds you, not even when you're both relaxed, and he'll be very different in short time.  A good handler would take about 10 minutes to stop his undesirable behaviour, without force, anger or a chiffney in the mouth.  Problem is, that's only the start of things going back to where they were - because the owners seldom maintain the consistent and fair approach that a good handler sets up.  Our horses are reflections of us and the way we treat them.


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## MagicMelon (5 October 2012)

TinyPony - your replies are spot on.  I totally agree with you.  Its how you are with the horse, if you're calm and relaxed then I strongly believe this will wear off on the horse.  If your stressed, shouty, agressive then why shouldnt the horse be.


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## Sarah1 (5 October 2012)

MagicMelon said:



			TinyPony - your replies are spot on.  I totally agree with you.  Its how you are with the horse, if you're calm and relaxed then I strongly believe this will wear off on the horse.  If your stressed, shouty, agressive then why shouldnt the horse be.
		
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But I don't believe QB is shouty & aggressive usually - I could be wrong but it's not the impression I get from other posts...


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## fburton (5 October 2012)

guido16 said:



			I have had a few big beasties that have had a hiding from me. Well timed and quick. Not a prolonged attack, just a bloody hiding. The same way a dominant mare would do to an out of control herd member. They have then, by me, been sent into a corner on their own to realise the herd leader has kicked them out the herd. Gives them time to realise its not a safe place to be and a change of attitude is required.
		
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What you do clearly works for you, but arguably not for the reasons you state. Do horses really see people as other horses (dominant or otherwise)? It's one thing to use it as an analogy, but I personally don't want to be considered _literally_ as a fellow herd member! Does a horse that you have driven away really think he's been separated from his herd? I doubt it. Making comparisons with herd interactions has a certain attraction, but the success of your punishment can be explained simply by the fact that you did something aversive (something he didn't like) to him in direct and immediate response to his misbehaviour.




			So I will now sit back and get ready for the pasting from you all....popcorn anyone?
		
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Nah, just a cut-n-pasting.


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## Roasted Chestnuts (5 October 2012)

I just honestly dont get folk these days. Do horses in their herds wave ropes at each other and make each other yield by banging their heads down or swishing leather ended leadropes at each other?? Love to see that if anyone has footage............... 

No they dont the bite, kick, chase and generally beat the living crap out of each other if one steps over the line. I worked on a yard for years and saw horses coming and going of all ages and types introduced to the herd. And when one stepped over its place by hell did it get a kicking if it decided it was moving up a place.

What damage really can a 60kg human with a whip do other than cause the horse a meomentary sting and some spacial distance. Horse gets a slap/smack/belt and moves away, horse gets roared and charged at and moves away.

If a horse thinks its above me enough in the pecking order to wave its front feet in my face then Im afraid it gets a hiding as that is downright dangerous and could end up fatal for me and the horse. People say there is difference between respect and fear YES to a human there is a difference but this is a small brained animal we are talking about they dont know terms of respect, that is a human concept and i for one HATE it when folk use all this human psyco babble on a blumming horse. Horses feel fear in herd fear of the lead mare or herd stallion enough to stay in line. Its not all consuming woe is me fear its just healthy and how things should be.

A horse who knows its human isnt going to take any nonsense is a safer horse than one who can get away with murder. Ive had a few horses like that who came from people who didnt believe in setting the pecking order and all it mean was hard work for me. Im not a large person (an now considerable lighter lol ) and even if my 14.3hh decided he wasnt doing what he was told Id get a sore one, never mind anything bigger. Ended up with some lovely horses out of it but when you get a horse like that it makes you not like if during the times when your supposed to be bonding with it. I dont condone people who beat and beat and beat but a well timed hiding with either hands or whip doesnt really do that much damage to a horse. My loan pony had a hide thick enough that even on board a whip does nothing so i dont use one, she stops and looks at you if you smack her 

QB do what you have to do IMO I dont think your the type to take a sledge hammer to the horse or batter it with a 2x4 etc


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## fburton (5 October 2012)

Tinypony said:



			"I am also to behave like I don't like him for a week or so because at hear he is a wuss and craves 'being liked'."

What does that mean?
		
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Horses, who live in the present moment, have no concept of holding a grudge - which is what the quote above implies. It suggests a deliberate withholding of any positive reinforcement over an extended period of time, no matter what behaviour/attitude is offered by the horse. I would be surprised if this produced any beneficial changes in behaviour at all. Much better, surely, to react to what the horse is doing moment-by-moment, and at least give him opportunities to be rewarded for doing good and punished (though less and less, if done correctly) for doing bad?


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## Amymay (5 October 2012)

Black Beastie said:



			What damage really can a 60kg human with a whip do other than cause the horse a meomentary sting and some spacial respect.
		
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Well, I'm not sure i've ever been quite so lost for words........

A person with this mentality has no place around horses, or any animal for that matter


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## Capriole (5 October 2012)

Black Beastie said:



			Do horses in their herds wave ropes at each other and make each other field by banging their heads down or swishing leather ended leadropes at each other?? Love to see that if anyone has footage............... 

Click to expand...

Funnily enough my yearling was doing just that this morning with a rope Id dropped on the floor   Sadly it wasnt going that well for her as she was just hitting herself in the head with the clip.


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## Wagtail (5 October 2012)

Black Beastie said:



			What damage really can a 60kg human with a whip do other than cause the horse a meomentary sting and some spacial respect. Horse gets a slap/smack/belt and moves away, horse gets roared and charged at and moves away.

If a horse thinks its above me enough in the pecking order to wave its front feet in my face then Im afraid it gets a hiding
		
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Unbelievable.


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## Amymay (5 October 2012)

Capriole said:



			Funnily enough my yearling was doing just that this morning with a rope Id dropped on the floor   Sadly it wasnt going that well for her as she was just hitting herself in the head with the clip.
		
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Ah, she's in to the Parelli way of learning then


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## Capriole (5 October 2012)




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## Roasted Chestnuts (5 October 2012)

Oh god you lot are unbelievable. None of you has ever slapped a horse on the neck?? Not one of you?? I find that hard to believe. And none of you have ever give a horse a smack with a whip from the ground?? Again dont believe it.

Have I ever drawn blood from a horse, Nope, have I ever cause unnecessary suffering, Nope so go ahead and judge all you like, my horses are happy and healthy and have never suffered abuse, just well times smack when over the line


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## siennamum (5 October 2012)

fburton said:



			Horses, who live in the present moment, have no concept of holding a grudge - which is what the quote above implies. It suggests a deliberate withholding of any positive reinforcement over an extended period of time, no matter what behaviour/attitude is offered by the horse. I would be surprised if this produced any beneficial changes in behaviour at all. Much better, surely, to react to what the horse is doing moment-by-moment, and at least give him opportunities to be rewarded for doing good and punished (though less and less, if done correctly) for doing bad? 

Click to expand...

For the purposes of debate I can see the sense in it.

You aren't punishing the horse over a week, you are excluding it from your space and from the affection and warm interaction it normally gets. I did something similar with my current youngster for a couple of sessions in response to him trying to bully me into submission. In response the horse tries to win you over again, is generally a bit unsure and seeking to please and you can instantly reward the correct response when it shows it.
It goes hand in hand with driving the horse away, which I also did when he was aggressive in the field (he was challenging we he came to me!!) I used whatever means were to hand to drive him away from me and the other horses who I was fussing and in a couple of occasions giving hay to unless he approached me with some respect and didn't try to drive me away.


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## kirstykate (5 October 2012)

Black Beastie said:



			I just honestly dont get folk these days. Do horses in their herds wave ropes at each other and make each other yield by banging their heads down or swishing leather ended leadropes at each other?? Love to see that if anyone has footage............... 

No they dont the bite, kick, chase and generally beat the living crap out of each other if one steps over the line. I worked on a yard for years and saw horses coming and going of all ages and types introduced to the herd. And when one stepped over its place by hell did it get a kicking if it decided it was moving up a place.

What damage really can a 60kg human with a whip do other than cause the horse a meomentary sting and some spacial distance. Horse gets a slap/smack/belt and moves away, horse gets roared and charged at and moves away.

If a horse thinks its above me enough in the pecking order to wave its front feet in my face then Im afraid it gets a hiding as that is downright dangerous and could end up fatal for me and the horse. People say there is difference between respect and fear YES to a human there is a difference but this is a small brained animal we are talking about they dont know terms of respect, that is a human concept and i for one HATE it when folk use all this human psyco babble on a blumming horse. Horses feel fear in herd fear of the lead mare or herd stallion enough to stay in line. Its not all consuming woe is me fear its just healthy and how things should be.

A horse who knows its human isnt going to take any nonsense is a safer horse than one who can get away with murder. Ive had a few horses like that who came from people who didnt believe in setting the pecking order and all it mean was hard work for me. Im not a large person (an now considerable lighter lol ) and even if my 14.3hh decided he wasnt doing what he was told Id get a sore one, never mind anything bigger. Ended up with some lovely horses out of it but when you get a horse like that it makes you not like if during the times when your supposed to be bonding with it. I dont condone people who beat and beat and beat but a well timed hiding with either hands or whip doesnt really do that much damage to a horse. My loan pony had a hide thick enough that even on board a whip does nothing so i dont use one, she stops and looks at you if you smack her 

QB do what you have to do IMO I dont think your the type to take a sledge hammer to the horse or batter it with a 2x4 etc  

Click to expand...

Spot on.  A horse must respect humans.  Some just need a growl some a smack others a whole lot more.  But there are very few Horsemen who can actually do right by the horse.


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## eggs (5 October 2012)

Bad behaviour has to be stopped before it gets dangerous.

In general I tend to agree with Black Beastie although I am certainly not advocating beating a horse.  I've seen my mares get very dominant with their foals when they step out of line.  Horses do not have the same reasoning powers as humans so it is wrong to ascribe human thinking to them.  What works with one horse may not work with another so I hope the OP finds the right solution for her horse. 

Capriole, my foal also did the same thing - picked up a lead rope, cantered off round the field with the clip smacking him between the eyes.


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## Roasted Chestnuts (5 October 2012)

amymay said:



			Well, I'm not sure i've ever been quite so lost for words........

A person with this mentality has no place around horses, or any animal for that matter

Click to expand...

Well I have been around horses for 25+ years, come from a horsey family who has been in different disciplines for years and have had all types of animals and have to say they have all lived happy and long lives 

So I dont really think your in the position to judge but go ahead if you really wanna


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## Derfette (5 October 2012)

Queenbee said:



			He needs a pasting.
		
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I don't think there is any excuse or reason why you feel you need to give your horse a "pasting"!! or any type of violence!!! Don't do it. You will in the long run, come off worse!!! If you're at a busy yard, maybe he needs a quieter life, where's you have more of a 1 on 1 with him without too many distractions. Ensure you have a proper routine with him day in, day out and have patience, I know that may seem difficult right now, but I speak from experience, it does work!!


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## Wagtail (5 October 2012)

Black Beastie said:



			Oh god you lot are unbelievable. None of you has ever slapped a horse on the neck?? Not one of you?? I find that hard to believe. And none of you have ever give a horse a smack with a whip from the ground?? Again dont believe it.

Have I ever drawn blood from a horse, Nope, have I ever cause unnecessary suffering, Nope so go ahead and judge all you like, my horses are happy and healthy and have never suffered abuse, just well times smack when over the line 

Click to expand...

So your definition of 'a hiding' is a slap on the neck or a tap with the whip? Or are you just back peddling?


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## Roasted Chestnuts (5 October 2012)

Wagtail said:



			So your definition of 'a hiding' is a slap on the neck or a tap with the whip? Or are you just back peddling?
		
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Nope not back pedalling at all Just asking a question from you folks who say you dont condone violence to horses but what is a smack with a hand or a whip then??

You obviously only read the bits of my post that you thought you could twist and thats fine if you want to go ahead and do that, no isues from me I am happy in myself and my horse management so no skin off my nose really. I didnt condone beating a horse but giving one a well timed lesson is completely different to what your trying to imply Im condoning 

Anyways I have said my piece QB I hope you get your boy back inhand and start to have fun again. Off to work


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## Pale Rider (5 October 2012)

Amymay, year after year, similar threads to this one come on with folk having problems with bolshy, aggressive youngsters.

Then the wiseacres, start on about whether it's better to batter the horse with a whip, crop or blue pipe, whether to use a bridle, chiffney or pressure head collar.

Same crap year after year.

Occasionally, someone like Tinypony comes along with some horse sense, but very few listen.

Same people, same methods, same mistakes, same results.


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## Amymay (5 October 2012)

Black Beastie said:



			Oh god you lot are unbelievable. None of you has ever slapped a horse on the neck?? Not one of you?? I find that hard to believe. And none of you have ever give a horse a smack with a whip from the ground?? Again dont believe it.
		
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You need to look at what you've posted and how you've phrased it:




			What damage really can a 60kg human with a whip
		
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The answer is - a tremendous amount of damage if used in a way designed to hurt, damage and inflict pain.

And in answer to your question about slapping - yep of course.  Used a stick from the ground - never.  Used a stick on board - yes. 

I've also thrown a bucket of water, the odd brush and headcoller.

But I've never made the conscious decision to beat an animal.  The day I do that is the day I walk away from animals.


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## kirstykate (5 October 2012)

But I've never made the conscious decision to beat an animal.  The day I do that is the day I walk away from animals.[/QUOTE]

But if you were in a situation where the horse could seriously injure you, which you have managed to avoid but it was inevitably going to happen in the future surely you would be preparing yourself.


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## JennBags (5 October 2012)

Wagtail said:



			So your definition of 'a hiding' is a slap on the neck or a tap with the whip? Or are you just back peddling?
		
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This is what I am having trouble with - some people seem to have a different definition of "a hiding" or "a pasting".

To me, a hiding or a pasting involves repeated hitting of the horse; which in my mind is pointless and cruel.

I do however think that a well-timed one-off slap, either with a hand or a stick, can be a useful tool.  This is NOT the same as giving a horse a hiding, or a pasting.

Tinypony, another one here who has absolute respect for your posts above - you have got it right


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## Roasted Chestnuts (5 October 2012)

amymay said:



			You need to look at what you've posted and how you've phrased it:



The answer is - a tremendous amount of damage if used in a way designed to hurt, damage and inflict pain.

And in answer to your question about slapping - yep of course.  Used a stick from the ground - never.  Used a stick on board - yes. 

I've also thrown a bucket of water, the odd brush and headcoller.

But I've never made the conscious decision to beat an animal.  The day I do that is the day I walk away from animals.
		
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No Im afraid you need to look at the mood in which you have decided to take it  Now THAT is an argument that could go on for ages lol 

Everyone from different areas says things a different way, maybe some of us are just more open to not putting words in folks mouths becasue they couldnt possibley have a different meaning of a word from what I do, I mean come on I am always right, right???


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## Sarah1 (5 October 2012)

amymay said:



			But I've never made the conscious decision to beat an animal.  The day I do that is the day I walk away from animals.
		
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I don't think for 1 second QB is planning on 'beating' her youngster.

I think some people are only picking up on the language used rather than the actual intent behind those words.  Everyone has phrased something wrong at some point in their life, jeez.

Black Beastie - I understand the point you are trying to make and FWIW I agree (though have to say I haven't hit with a whip from the ground, unless you include a tickle with a lunge whip?!).  My horse has never had a 'beating' from me but he's a big hunk of horse flesh and he's had a slap on the neck or shoulder for sure and he's a lovely well-adjusted, well mannered boy so it obviously hasn't done any lasting damage!


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## YasandCrystal (5 October 2012)

amymay said:



			You need to look at what you've posted and how you've phrased it:



The answer is - a tremendous amount of damage if used in a way designed to hurt, damage and inflict pain.

And in answer to your question about slapping - yep of course.  Used a stick from the ground - never.  Used a stick on board - yes. 

I've also thrown a bucket of water, the odd brush and headcoller.

But I've never made the conscious decision to beat an animal.  The day I do that is the day I walk away from animals.
		
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I agree with this. As the owner of a 17hh horse who has in the past been abused with a whip and punched in the face I can categorically say a human can inflict tremendous damage.
It has taken 2 years for my horse to trust me and he has bitten me very aggressively and threatened with his front and hind legs and I have never retaliated other than a shoulder slap which got me bitten badly.
Today he is the most loving sweet horse and unrecognisable. Had I 'hit' him I know we would still be battling it out today. Trust and respect is earnt from clear messages and consistent handling. We are human not horses so our place is to read the language not try to emulate it with a whip.


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## Amymay (5 October 2012)

kirstykate said:



			But if you were in a situation where the horse could seriously injure you, which you have managed to avoid but it was inevitably going to happen in the future surely you would be preparing yourself. 

Click to expand...

Of course not.  How would I ever win that battle???


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## Amymay (5 October 2012)

Black Beastie said:



			No Im afraid you need to look at the mood in which you have decided to take it
		
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No, I merely read what you'd written and was shocked.

Ah, you've edited - so can't respond to the other points, more than to say that if people can't articulate what they are trying to say - then I can't be blamed for misinterpreting.  However, I do hold my hand up to speed reading on occasion, and being mistaken in what I've read - for which I always apologise.

I also didn't make the assumption that you beat your animals - far from it.  I was just surprised that you seriously questioned the amount of damage that _could_ be done by a whip in the hands of someone with the intent to inflict some serious damage.


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## YasandCrystal (5 October 2012)

Sarah1 said:



			I don't think for 1 second QB is planning on 'beating' her youngster.

I think some people are only picking up on the language used rather than the actual intent behind those words.  Everyone has phrased something wrong at some point in their life, jeez.

Black Beastie - I understand the point you are trying to make and FWIW I agree (though have to say I haven't hit with a whip from the ground, unless you include a tickle with a lunge whip?!).  My horse has never had a 'beating' from me but he's a big hunk of horse flesh and he's had a slap on the neck or shoulder for sure and he's a lovely well-adjusted, well mannered boy so it obviously hasn't done any lasting damage! 

Click to expand...

Sarah1 may I just say if you follow the thread Amymay is responding to BlackBeasties post not QB. As was I .


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## Sarah1 (5 October 2012)

YasandCrystal said:



			Sarah1 may I just say if you follow the thread Amymay is responding to BlackBeasties post not QB. As was I .
		
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Apologies then, I though Amymay was refering to the words used in the original post as well as Black Beasties reply.

The second sentence of my reply didn't specifically refer to AmyMay - it was a general observation


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## Roasted Chestnuts (5 October 2012)

amymay said:



			No, I merely read what you'd written and was shocked.
		
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So you automatically go on the attack, strange reaction from someone who walks away from a fight...........  

Again you havent read that statement or the bit after it which is clearly in jest i mean i even added smileys for goodness sake and who cant tell what a smiley is saying. 

We are all different and we all have different ways of doing stuff. I take what I see on the net with a pinch of salt as I KNOW everyone is different and there are no gospels in dealing with horses. I dont go looking for the bad in peoples posts as Id be amighty grumpy chick if I did,  And I think a few folks should remember that then forum land might be a better place to be


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## YasandCrystal (5 October 2012)

Sarah1 said:



			Apologies then, I though Amymay was refering to the words used in the original post as well as Black Beasties reply.

The second sentence of my reply didn't specifically refer to AmyMay - it was a general observation 

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sorry I quoted the whole reply, but meant to refer to the first sentence


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## Amymay (5 October 2012)

Black Beastie said:



			So you automatically go on the attack,
		
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You wrote it not me, I reacted not attacked........





			strange reaction from someone who walks away from a fight...........  

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Depends on what your definition of fight is, doesn't it?


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## Wagtail (5 October 2012)

JennBags said:



			This is what I am having trouble with - some people seem to have a different definition of "a hiding" or "a pasting".

To me, a hiding or a pasting involves repeated hitting of the horse; which in my mind is pointless and cruel.

I do however think that a well-timed one-off slap, either with a hand or a stick, can be a useful tool.  This is NOT the same as giving a horse a hiding, or a pasting.

Tinypony, another one here who has absolute respect for your posts above - you have got it right 

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That's exactly what I was getting at. An elbow in the nose as the horse goes to bite you, a tap with the whip to reinforce your leg aid, a slap with the back of the hand if a horse barges over you, is entirely different to a 'hiding' or a 'pasting'.


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## nikCscott (5 October 2012)

Not getting into the argument...

Good luck- firm no nonsence but fair would be my approach lead him with a lunge line then you can give him space to keep yourself safe but you've still got him - i swear by my dooley. Loads of ground work respecting your space but willing to follow.

Let us know how you get on?


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## Kallibear (5 October 2012)

kirstykate said:



			But if you were in a situation where the horse could seriously injure you, which you have managed to avoid but it was inevitably going to happen in the future surely you would be preparing yourself. 

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There is never ANY justification for beating an animal. Ever. A couple of hard smacks at most to drive it away from you, if your in danger, a (single!) slap/elbow etc to get it out of your space if they're are being particularlyy bulshy but never beating.

'Beating' (pasting/leathering/thrashing etc) is repetatively hitting, usually in anger. Absolutely no place in working with horses. 

But you do see it regularly: people holding their horse tightly by the leadrope whilst they 'punish' it by hit it over and over again, often round in circels. It never acheives anything than a very frightened horse


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## fburton (5 October 2012)

Black Beastie said:



			No they dont the bite, kick, chase and generally beat the living crap out of each other if one steps over the line. I worked on a yard for years and saw horses coming and going of all ages and types intorduced to the herd. And when one stepped over its place by hell did it get a kicking if it decided it was moving up a place.
		
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Yes, and one also sees a lot of bullying going on, especially when we keep changing the composition of the herd (which is not a very natural scenario). Just because horses act violently towards each other in some situations doesn't automatically mean that we are obliged to behave in the same way or use bullying tactics. If we can achieve the desired result with more measured actions, surely it is good horsemanship to do so. The best achieve results using minimal force and unpleasantness - doing whatever it takes to change behaviours and attitudes, _but no more_ than that. Going after a horse in the manner of the field bully is massive overkill.

So what should we be doing instead?

Good horsemanship looks unspectacular and quiet for the most part. Reprimands are swift and over in the blink of an eye; emotions remain on the level. Fights are not 'picked', they are actively avoided wherever possible. This is pretty much essential when dealing with some horses that possess a latent aggressiveness that can escalate beyond anything one person can safely deal with. However, I can understand why some people might believe that fights are there to be won when they have never had to deal with extreme aggression.

There's a lot of talk about "pecking orders" and the need for the human to be at the top. But do we really want the hassle of emulating a dominant horse just to make a spurious (because we aren't horses) point about our position in some notional herd structure? Sure, it's possible to "dominate" most horses extremely easily. We can make them behave submissively easily enough and call this "respect". Easy, at least, until we encounter the rarer individual that is p*ssed off by our antics and is prepared to turn things into a real battle. So then we just have to "do what it takes" to out-dominate this kind of horse, right? Well, no - not right - because the whole mess could have been avoided if we'd simply concentrated on reinforcing the behaviours we want, punishing the behaviours we don't want with minimal fuss, and stop kidding ourselves that we are honorary horses.

The fact that the simple approach does work, spectacularly well when the handler's skill and timing are well honed, must tell us something!


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## Roasted Chestnuts (5 October 2012)

amymay said:



			You wrote it not me, I reacted not attacked........




Depends on what your definition of fight is, doesn't it?
		
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Oh god your really just wanting a full blown diva scratching cat fight AM lol!! 

Honestly we arent going to agree so why not just simmer down, have a cuppa and step away from the keyboard since you have decided to take everything I type as a personal affront. My work place bekons so have fun starting a fight with yourself and enjoy your day


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## kirstykate (5 October 2012)

amymay said:



			Of course not.  How would I ever win that battle???
		
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So what would you do with a young horse in this situtaion?


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## Amymay (5 October 2012)

Black Beastie said:



			Oh god your really just wanting a full blown diva scratching cat fight AM lol!! 

Honestly we arent going to agree so why not just simmer down, have a cuppa and step away from the keyboard since you have decided to take everything I type as a personal affront. My work place bekons so have fun starting a fight with yourself and enjoy your day 

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Well, you're amusing - if nothing else....


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## Amymay (5 October 2012)

kirstykate said:



			So what would you do with a young horse in this situtaion?
		
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Give it company for starters.

Give it a job to do.

Give it firm, consistent handling.

Get professional help (that didn't involve beating or carrot sticks if I was genuinly struggling).

Send it for meat if all became too much


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## Sarah1 (5 October 2012)

Kallibear said:



			But you do see it regularly: people holding their horse tightly by the leadrope whilst they 'punish' it by hit it over and over again, often round in circels. It never acheives anything than a very frightened horse 

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Where?


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## Wagtail (5 October 2012)

I remember years ago when my new mare was being a nightmare to hack out on her own, spinning, rearing, running backwards. My advice from several people on the yard, including yard owner, was to give her a pasting. 

My solution was to get off her, and walk her past her nappy places, then get back on (with some difficulty as she trotted around me!). The result? Times when I had to get off became fewer and fewer. Within a week she was hacking out alone with no napping at all. She just needed to know that I took her fears seriously. I gained her respect and trust.


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## fburton (5 October 2012)

siennamum said:



			You aren't punishing the horse over a week, you are excluding it from your space and from the affection and warm interaction it normally gets.
		
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So you're withholding something the horse likes... That sounds suspiciously like punishment in my book (of the negative sort). But even if the horse doesn't perceive it that way, you are deliberately throwing the reward option out of your toolbox (and keeping it out _for a whole week!_). That's different from what you went on to write - "you can instantly reward the correct response when it shows it" - which I have no problem with.


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## kirstykate (5 October 2012)

amymay said:



			Give it company for starters.

Give it a job to do.

Give it firm, consistent handling.

Get professional help (that didn't involve beating or carrot sticks if I was genuinly struggling).

Send it for meat if all became too much

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Love it  and oh so true!!

I hate to say it but some horses do just need it, weather it be from a human or other horses.  We used to have 2 mares which would put anything in its place and it was really quite brutal to watch which would normally do the trick but there has been the odd occasion when it has taken more and the sad thing is that the horses are normally in this state because of bad handling by us humans


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## Wagtail (5 October 2012)

Sarah1 said:



			Where? 

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If I ever saw it, the person administering the treatment would get an earful. However, I have heard second hand reports from others who have witnessed this. I have also heard people bragging about giving their horse a hiding, like it's something to be proud of!


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## fburton (5 October 2012)

eggs said:



			Bad behaviour has to be stopped before it gets dangerous.
		
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Yes, sure as eggs is eggs. If one is lucky enough to bring up a horse from a foal, as you are, bad behaviour can be nipped in the bud at the first sign - and should be - before it develops into something that is harder to deal with.


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## MerrySherryRider (5 October 2012)

During the 45 years since I first put a foot in a stirrup, I've noticed that horse people who are confident in their ability don't tend to slap and shout. They're the one's that have inspired me because of what they achieve.

  Those that are nervous or unsure of themselves seem to be the shouty ones.

Can it be that the calm, consistent handlers never have difficult horses, or is it that they know how to manage a challenging horse whilst to the observer it seems like nothing is happening ?

Using vocabulary like ' getting nasty, violent and giving it a pasting' by the OP convey entirely the wrong message because it almost justify's the actions of posters for whom aggressive and ignorant management is normal.

Its not.


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## Sarah1 (5 October 2012)

Wagtail said:



			If I ever saw it, the person administering the treatment would get an earful
		
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Me too.

Kallibear actually said 'you see this regularly' but I can honestly said I've never seen this in 25+ years around horses


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## Pale Rider (5 October 2012)

horserider

During the 45 years since I first put a foot in a stirrup, I've noticed that horse people who are confident in their ability don't tend to slap and shout. They're the one's that have inspired me because of what they achieve.

Those that are nervous or unsure of themselves seem to be the shouty ones.

Can it be that the calm, consistent handlers never have difficult horses, or is it that they know how to manage a challenging horse whilst to the observer it seems like nothing is happening ?

Using vocabulary like ' getting nasty, violent and giving it a pasting' by the OP convey entirely the wrong message because it almost justify's the actions of posters for whom aggressive and ignorant management is normal.

Its not.

Nice post, and true.


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## Maesfen (5 October 2012)

Pale Rider said:



			horserider

Those that are nervous or unsure of themselves seem to be the shouty ones.

Can it be that the calm, consistent handlers never have difficult horses, or is it that they know how to manage a challenging horse whilst to the observer it seems like nothing is happening ?

Using vocabulary like ' getting nasty, violent and giving it a pasting' by the OP convey entirely the wrong message because ......
		
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......that was total exaggeration on her part; she knew she'd get 'copy' out of it as it was such an inflammatory title.

One would imagine that the quiet, calm and consistent handlers you mentioned would have been that right from when they first made contact with that horse and they wouldn't have allowed it to deviate from those boundaries they had set - in their calm consistent way -  so whether youngster or not, the OP situation would never have arisen at all which takes us back to the beginning that it is the OP who has let her horse down, not the other way around.


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## Pale Rider (5 October 2012)

It's always the handlers fault, only a knob blames the horse.


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## Fellewell (5 October 2012)

Do horses really 'beat the crap out of each other', really??

Sure they might be forced to fight their corner in poached, overstocked pasture under man-made conditions but in my experience horses are quite biddable and would much rather take the line of least resistance. Their cues are beautifully subtle.

I agree that people who beat animals are generally scared of them. Animals don't have time to find out what you're scared of, they just react.


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## MerrySherryRider (5 October 2012)

Maesfen said:



			......that was total exaggeration on her part; she knew she'd get 'copy' out of it as it was such an inflammatory title.

One would imagine that the quiet, calm and consistent handlers you mentioned would have been that right from when they first made contact with that horse and they wouldn't have allowed it to deviate from those boundaries they had set - in their calm consistent way -  so whether youngster or not, the OP situation would never have arisen at all which takes us back to the beginning that it is the OP who has let her horse down, not the other way around.
		
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It may well have been exaggeration on OP's part, but for young horse owners dealing with problems, what message does that give ? 

Lucky for me, it was because of the example  of calm and consistent mentors,   that when I bought a particularly challenging 12 year old horse a while back, I was able to manage her very dangerous and explosive behaviour. 
Two vets, two farriers and the YO all recommended euthanasia believing her to be beyond help.
 However, she came good, she's a most genuine horse who is delightfully straightforward and fun. One vet and farrier did remark at the time, that if anyone could help her, it was having someone who was calm and patient. 

 If she had been given a good pasting, either her or the handler would have been badly hurt and that, for her, would have been the greatest injustice ever.


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## Circe (5 October 2012)

Can't quote on my phone but totally agree with horserider. Fear makes people aggressive in a lot of cases. 
I don't for a moment think QB is aggressive, I think the choice of thread title and the use of the word pasting were unwise as they give the wrong impression. 
There is ( IMO ) a vast difference between a slap on the shoulder to a pasting, which is loosing your temper and laying into your horse repeatedly. 
Sensible advice from amymay, give him a job to do, give him something to think about as well


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## fburton (5 October 2012)

Wagtail said:



			That's exactly what I was getting at. An elbow in the nose as the horse goes to bite you, a tap with the whip to reinforce your leg aid, a slap with the back of the hand if a horse barges over you, is entirely different to a 'hiding' or a 'pasting'.
		
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One key difference between ways of "reprimanding physically" is whether the horse perceives the punisher coming from you personally or directly from his actions. If a horse swings his head to bite you and hits his mouth on your elbow which "just happens" to be in the way, he will associate his going to bite you with the unpleasant sensation rather than viewing it as a return of aggression.

I think it is better to avoid personal animosity and arrange, if possible, for the horse to self-punish. It stops the behaviour without generating any additional conflict. If you don't want to add hostility to the situation, you have to not get angry yourself, stay matter-of-fact, and when the correction is over carry on as if nothing had happened. Even when it's not possible to avoid the horse seeing the punisher coming from you - realistically most of the time - it can still be delivered in a neutral way that reduces the chance of escalation.


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## Wagtail (5 October 2012)

I agree. That is why using an elbow that happens to meet their nose or using a backwards slap is not perceived in the same way as a raised hand.


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## Kallibear (5 October 2012)

Sarah1 said:



			Me too.

Kallibear actually said 'you see this regularly' but I can honestly said I've never seen this in 25+ years around horses 

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Sadly there is usually one at most shows. Horse refused the jump and rider fell off, so smackes it round in a circles a couple of times to 'teach it a lesson'. You can usually find at least on person with a wound up horse yanking on it's face over and over again with the head collar yelling 'will you *&$% stand up!'. 

Where and when you see it very much depends on the level you're at : much less common at advanced levels because, as others have already said, it's usually due to fear and anger, which is much less common at higher levels (you'd hope!). Try going along to a local small SJ show (populated by teenages) and you'll see it quickly enough. Also large, cheaper DIY yards with a lot of novices. Or, like round here, where there are a couple of VERY poor riding schools (where the staff are rough and aggressive as standard with the poor, very tolerant horses).

I have once had it done directly in front of me (by a young friend of a friend) and put a stop to it. Sadly rather than try and learn the young girl was just sulky afterwards


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## Wagtail (5 October 2012)

I know a girl at one yard I was at who my friend witnessed return from a hack where her horse had in her words been a complete d*ck, and she proceeded to thrash him with her whip for a couple of minutes before YO ran out an put a stop to it.


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## Amymay (5 October 2012)

Fellewell said:



			Do horses really 'beat the crap out of each other', really??
		
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No, they don't.  Unless put in a situation where they go in to attack mode.


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## Kallibear (5 October 2012)

Wagtail said:



			I agree. That is why using an elbow that happens to meet their nose or using a backwards slap is not perceived in the same way as a raised hand.
		
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Very effective for sly nipping and such. However there are times when you want the horse to be fully aware that you're said 'Get out my space, you horrible little brat'! Although if you've got it right it should be a very rare occasion!


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## Wagtail (5 October 2012)

amymay said:



			No, they don't.  Unless put in a situation where they go in to attack mode.
		
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Actually, there are some horses that DO. I have one here. He can only be kept in individual turnout because he will run down and try to kill any horse that so much as looks at him the wrong way. However, these horses are abnormal and socially inept. Just like their human equivalents. Incidentally, this horse had been bought as a four year old and kept on his own in a field out of sight of other equines for a year by his novice owners. That says it all really.


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## Kallibear (5 October 2012)

Wagtail said:



			I know a girl at one yard I was at who my friend witnessed return from a hack where her horse had in her words been a complete d*ck, and she proceeded to thrash him with her whip for a couple of minutes before YO ran out an put a stop to it.
		
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I was once in a lesson with an instructor who took an (admittedly very lazy) cob by the noseband and beat him round in a circle for a minute (with the rider still on board) so he 'learnt to go when told'  With instructors like that, no wonder there's so many poor horseman around.


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## Amymay (5 October 2012)

Wagtail said:



			Actually, there are some horses that DO. I have one here. He can only be kept in individual turnout because he will run down and try to kill any horse that so much as looks at him the wrong way. However, these horses are abnormal and socially inept.
		
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Yes, sorry - I was just generalising.  And there's always the odd exception.


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## fburton (5 October 2012)

Kallibear said:



			Sadly there is usually one at most shows. Horse refused the jump and rider fell off, so smackes it round in a circles a couple of times to 'teach it a lesson'. You can usually find at least on person with a wound up horse yanking on it's face over and over again with the head collar yelling 'will you *&$% stand up!'.
		
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A perfectly legitimate response to *naughtiness*, don't you know! (Seriously, it makes me cringe to see that too.)


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## siennamum (5 October 2012)

fburton said:



			So you're withholding something the horse likes... That sounds suspiciously like punishment in my book (of the negative sort). But even if the horse doesn't perceive it that way, you are deliberately throwing the reward option out of your toolbox (and keeping it out _for a whole week!_). That's different from what you went on to write - "you can instantly reward the correct response when it shows it" - which I have no problem with.
		
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Hmm I dont think I would continue this for a whole week though, just to be confusing. More that until I get the response I want I will withdraw the level of interaction that the horse wants, and that may take some time. I would reward the hint of a correct response, to encourage the right behaviour of course. I have found this can take time, you have small victories but over a period with a particularly suspicious and dominant horse I think I do hold my ground till they make the first move, and that can be by excluding them. I may not be explaining myself very well of course - both on here and to the blooming horse.


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## fburton (5 October 2012)

siennamum said:



			Hmm I dont think I would continue this for a whole week though, just to be confusing. More that until I get the response I want I will withdraw the level of interaction that the horse wants, and that may take some time. I would reward the hint of a correct response, to encourage the right behaviour of course. I have found this can take time, you have small victories but over a period with a particularly suspicious and dominant horse I think I do hold my ground till they make the first move, and that can be by excluding them. I may not be explaining myself very well of course - both on here and to the blooming horse.
		
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Okay, that make sense to me now - thanks for clarifying!


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## BeesKnees (5 October 2012)

Tinypony said:



			"I am also to behave like I don't like him for a week or so because at hear he is a wuss and craves 'being liked'."

What does that mean?
		
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I just don't understand the trainer's logic behind this? 

Firstly the horse is aggressive and potentially dangerous, but at the same time is a "wuss and craves being liked"? 

Secondly, the idea seems to be to take a horse that has limited social interaction with other horses, (and is therefore perhaps more reliant on its owner for such interaction) and to ignore it for a week to somehow make it what...... less needy??? Is it not possible the opposite would happen and the horse would merely crave the interaction even more? 

Sorry if I'm being thick here but it doesn't seem to make sense to me? And that makes me doubt the sense of taking any of their 'advice'.


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## Amymay (5 October 2012)

Now I'm very, very confused as QB's name has gone dark.....


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## kirstykate (5 October 2012)

amymay said:



			Now I'm very, very confused as QB's name has gone dark.....
		
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What does that mean?


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## Amymay (5 October 2012)

kirstykate said:



			What does that mean?
		
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She's been banned, or is on a holiday.  Can't imagine either.


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## Roasted Chestnuts (5 October 2012)

Probably some button pusher has pushed her for supposed horse battery 

If so that's really rather cowardly and sad


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## Amymay (5 October 2012)

Black Beastie said:



			Probably some button pusher has pushed her for supposed horse battery 

If so that's really rather cowardly and sad 

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I doubt it.  There's nothing in this post that is contentious with regards T&C's


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## kirstykate (5 October 2012)

Oh for God sake if its these button pushers


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## Roasted Chestnuts (5 October 2012)

I thought that, hoping its nothing though but agree KK button pushers are cowardly @sses some people need to get a life


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## Ladyinred (5 October 2012)

Black Beastie said:



			Probably some button pusher has pushed her for supposed horse battery 

If so that's really rather cowardly and sad 

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I think you will find she is on a holiday after a comment made in Soapbox. Quotes of the comment are still there. 

Apologies for interrupting!


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## Wagtail (5 October 2012)

Ladyinred said:



			I think you will find she is on a holiday after a comment made in Soapbox. Quotes of the comment are still there. 

Apologies for interrupting!
		
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Which thread?


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## kirstykate (5 October 2012)

The Plot thickens


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## Roasted Chestnuts (5 October 2012)

Ahhh she had a go at rosehip over some comments made on a thread about that poor wee girl april.

Did get a bit heated I have to say, never saw the original thread so can't comment on the apparently graphic content.


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## Fellewell (5 October 2012)

amymay said:



			No, they don't.  Unless put in a situation where they go in to attack mode.
		
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Quite right and if these 'mad' 'bad' 'dangerous' horses are fortunate enough to have a change of ownership it is generally followed by a complete change of personality too -uncanny that

When I see an old ploughman, 4ft 9 in his stocking feet, controlling a team of three using his bare hands, no whip, just barely audible clucks and whistles then I think perhaps we've lost something when it comes to horsemanship.


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## putasocinit (5 October 2012)

promise me you will not jab him in the mouth with a chiffney


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## jrp204 (5 October 2012)

I think QB used an unfortunate turn of phrase! I know the yard and the YO very well as does another very well respected HHO'er. The YO actually does know her stuff and regularly produces young horses to a very high standard without 'beating' them. I have alot of respect for her, we have a couple of producers down here who 'beating into shape' is taken very literally and i wouldn't send my worst horse there. 
I would certainly trust 'Auntie G's' methods and everytime i have been to the yard all the horses are happy and the atmosphere, horses and liveries is great, one of the best yards to be on.


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## FfionWinnie (5 October 2012)

Wagtail said:



			That's exactly what I was getting at. An elbow in the nose as the horse goes to bite you, a tap with the whip to reinforce your leg aid, a slap with the back of the hand if a horse barges over you, is entirely different to a 'hiding' or a 'pasting'.
		
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Exactly and the phrase *well timed* is the important thing. Why wait until the horse is being this bad, sort out bad behaviour as it comes up and keep the horse having nice manners.  Ignoring it for a week is a complete waste of time.  Personally I do not smack or slap my horses, I would elbow strategically for an attempted bite or barge and I use a pressure halter to train them on the ground. Once they are trained there is no problem with manners in my experience, but I never let them slip and insist on good behaviour all the time. 

If QB had originally said she was going to nip this behaviour in the bud and get firm with him, instead of the original language, I don't think anyone would have disagreed. 

The most important thing with training any animal is consistency and fairness.  Like if you let your dog jump on you 6 days a week you cannot shout at it when it jumps on your best suit for church...


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## JennBags (5 October 2012)

FfionWinnie said:



			If QB had originally said she was going to nip this behaviour in the bud and get firm with him, instead of the original language, I don't think anyone would have disagreed. 

The most important thing with training any animal is consistency and fairness.  Like if you let your dog jump on you 6 days a week you cannot shout at it when it jumps on your best suit for church...
		
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Absolutely.

The problem has been going on for quite a while, she posted at Christmas about similar handling issues with him.  She didn't take on board any of the advice she was given then, as she apparently knew better, and knew people who would deal with it then.  10 months later, she is having the same problems.  Go figure.


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## Tinypony (5 October 2012)

I'm not aiming to compare one approach to horses that we find a bit challenging with another.  Really I wanted to highlight the language we use about horses sometimes and how I feel that can colour our perceptions and attitude to them and how we then deal with them.  
Just a quick scan of the first couple of pages, this horse was described as - git, evil, rude, stroppy, inconsiderate, nasty, challenging, dominant...  
This is often the case and I'm not getting at QB personally about it, I just wish that sometimes people in general would stop to consider if an animal really merits these sort of descriptions, and in fact whether they are even appropriate.  How can a horse be "inconsiderate" for example?  
All I'm saying is that sometimes can't we step back and look at a horse for what it is, ie just a horse, and think about it in appropriate terms?  The words we think about and use when we are with these animals undoubtedly affect the way we relate to them.  Just to quote: "I knew this day would come".  Talk about self-fulfilling prophecy.

Oh, and the alternative to giving horses a "pasting" isn't necessarily waving ropes or carrot sticks at them is it?  I had to pick up on that comment from a few pages back because I just think it's daft.


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## kimberleigh (5 October 2012)

I think some people took the OP all too literally - though admittedly choice of words could be vastly improved if wanting post to be perceived in a different light.

If he were my horse - and Im well aware of 'horses for courses' so to speak - he would be turned out in company to have some time to chill out and be a horse. I know the OP says he doesnt need/want company but at his age I would say it is vital and ignore what works for the other horses on the yard for the time being. At 3.5 years old any horse of mine would not be being 'worked', light educational hacks/very short schooling sessions would be all. They would then get winter off to grow up a bit. 

My current youngster, 2 year old Welsh d gelding, is being a bit of a brat. Never would I even consider beating the crap out of him...but for the first time the other day I took a short crop into his stable with me and everytime he attempted to barge through me he got a smack on the chest backed up with voice aids. He is one who knows his size and strength and has used it previously to his advantage. He trusts me completely but sometimes forgetshs respect! I am happy to back up my requests to him if he ignores what I ask. (he doesn't respect other horses and often would get a good beating from another horse after he had repeatedly ignored their more subtle warnings, so I know he needs firm but fair handling)

Another little mare I owned had had the crap well and truly beaten out of her - both on the ground and ridden. When I bought her she would attack you with teeth and hooves if you attempted to enter her stable...she wasn't nasty or dominant she had simply learnt that was the only way to keep humans away from her. I simply popped her in a very small stable and covered myself in padding and braved her attack - she only truly attacked me once and when she realised I didn't leave she stopped and let me be. She was by no means  easy, and it took months for her to give up those behaviours completely (and she would still they it with new people who tried to get right into her space straight away) but if I had hit her in the very beginning I feel she wouldn't have came round so easily. That's not to say that once I gained her trust and respect I was all fluffy with her - she went to bite my younger sister once and got an elbow in the muzzle from me for her troubles as there still need to be boundaries!

Kim


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## EMC (5 October 2012)

Sarah1 said:



			Your horse tried to kick you & you ended up feeling ashamed because you reacted to that?  You should have reacted to it, it's unacceptable! 

It's ok walking away but if it's a one-off spur of the moment thing then the horse isn't going to remember it 10 minutes later, they need a response immediately.
		
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Yes I reacted with a loud 'No' but I don't agree with hitting horses unless you are in fear for your own safety. I wouldn't hit a child, a dog or a human so why hit my horse?

He had a metal gate close on him when a rider swung it open to take him off the gallops, in response he kicked out, got caught in the gate and was badly injured. I know he has issues with his back legs as a result and take this into account when working with him, it was my fault for not taking the time to reassure him and approach his feet properly. I should have given him fair warning by running my hand down his backside/leg before reaching for his foot, instead of forgetting and going immediately to pick it up. 

I won't apologise for feeling ashamed, I may be too fluffy for your liking but I would rather have my horse respect me than fear me. I've seen too many race horses soured by lads who have to get the job done quickly and result to pushing the horse around or hitting them and I don't wish to be associated with that.


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## emmah1979 (5 October 2012)

Auslander said:



			I don't see that it's the point at all. It could also be said that horses don't know why they have been kicked/bitten by older herd members when they first start to push their luck. 
If he doesn't yet know that being a bargy, pushy git is not acceptable - he will soon work it out if he receives a short sharp shock every time he does something rude. Ideally he would be out with others, but the OP doesn't have a choice. Therefore, she is taking responsibility for dishing out the discipline that he would get from another horse for bad behaviour.
		
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Well said


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## MerrySherryRider (5 October 2012)

emmah1979 said:



			Well said
		
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Contrary to seemingly popular belief, senior horses do not lunge, kick, bite and chase off youngsters for every misdemeanor. 
 Most of their correction is done with a look and body language. Silently and quietly. 
 Have you ever seen a foal made to stand stock still or have each foot fall directed with incredible precision by an unspoken language from a senior herd member ?
 Physical aggression is an absolute last resort when other signals have been willfully ignored.

Having seen the skill with which horses train and socialise young ones. Its a rare and talented human that could replicate that.

Want a rude horse ? Then kept it away from others and give it a good whacking when it forgets the manners it hasn't learnt.


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## emmah1979 (5 October 2012)

Black Beastie said:



			I just honestly dont get folk these days. Do horses in their herds wave ropes at each other and make each other yield by banging their heads down or swishing leather ended leadropes at each other?? Love to see that if anyone has footage............... 

No they dont the bite, kick, chase and generally beat the living crap out of each other if one steps over the line. I worked on a yard for years and saw horses coming and going of all ages and types introduced to the herd. And when one stepped over its place by hell did it get a kicking if it decided it was moving up a place.

What damage really can a 60kg human with a whip do other than cause the horse a meomentary sting and some spacial distance. Horse gets a slap/smack/belt and moves away, horse gets roared and charged at and moves away.

If a horse thinks its above me enough in the pecking order to wave its front feet in my face then Im afraid it gets a hiding as that is downright dangerous and could end up fatal for me and the horse. People say there is difference between respect and fear YES to a human there is a difference but this is a small brained animal we are talking about they dont know terms of respect, that is a human concept and i for one HATE it when folk use all this human psyco babble on a blumming horse. Horses feel fear in herd fear of the lead mare or herd stallion enough to stay in line. Its not all consuming woe is me fear its just healthy and how things should be.

A horse who knows its human isnt going to take any nonsense is a safer horse than one who can get away with murder. Ive had a few horses like that who came from people who didnt believe in setting the pecking order and all it mean was hard work for me. Im not a large person (an now considerable lighter lol ) and even if my 14.3hh decided he wasnt doing what he was told Id get a sore one, never mind anything bigger. Ended up with some lovely horses out of it but when you get a horse like that it makes you not like if during the times when your supposed to be bonding with it. I dont condone people who beat and beat and beat but a well timed hiding with either hands or whip doesnt really do that much damage to a horse. My loan pony had a hide thick enough that even on board a whip does nothing so i dont use one, she stops and looks at you if you smack her 

QB do what you have to do IMO I dont think your the type to take a sledge hammer to the horse or batter it with a 2x4 etc  

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Whoo hoo!  I agree.  The most dangerous horses I've met are the ones who are owned by people who have watched a bit of Monty or Parelli man and think that they can do this too.  A little bit of knowledge can be a bad thing.  I enjoy watching Monty and KM but am under no illusions that they make that stuff look easy.  How many times have they sorted out a horse in the ring only for it to go back to its owner and immediately revert back to its bad behaviour?  

On almost every yard there seems to be someone who likes to do the 'natural horsemanship' thing and ironically their horse is often the bargiest, rudest, most bad mannered animal on yard because they don't understand that horses need discipline and to understand their place in the pecking order.  This doesn't mean being cruel and beating the c**p out of it.


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## Tinypony (5 October 2012)

Queenbee said:



			Unfortunately one hit wont do it... it will take something like this 'hit, buck, hit, kick, hit, kick, hit bum, hit, kick, hit, flat ears, hit, flat ears, hit, nothing... unfortunately that is what we are talking about, he is very challenging before he concedes... dominatrix outfit needed!
		
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I don't think there has been a lot of room for misunderstanding personally.  I also accept that, for many, getting tough with a chiffney and repeatedly belting a horse would be acceptable because they think it is the only way they can keep themselves safe.  It's always "interesting" to read other views and I don't think anyone should expect for a minute that they might change opinions on something like this.


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## Tinypony (5 October 2012)

emmah1979 said:



			Whoo hoo!  I agree.  The most dangerous horses I've met are the ones who are owned by people who have watched a bit of Monty or Parelli man and think that they can do this too.  A little bit of knowledge can be a bad thing.  I enjoy watching Monty and KM but am under no illusions that they make that stuff look easy.  How many times have they sorted out a horse in the ring only for it to go back to its owner and immediately revert back to its bad behaviour?  

On almost every yard there seems to be someone who likes to do the 'natural horsemanship' thing and ironically their horse is often the bargiest, rudest, most bad mannered animal on yard because they don't understand that horses need discipline and to understand their place in the pecking order.  This doesn't mean being cruel and beating the c**p out of it.
		
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I can't quite work out why anyone decided that natural horsemanship or Monty Roberts had anything to do with this thread.  Sometimes it seems as if any excuse, people will wangle these sort of comments on to threads. I've read most of these posts and I can't see anyone recommending that QB should use Parelli or Monty methods.  The closest was a suggestion that a Dually might be helpful, which is just a posh version of a rope over the nose anyway...


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## emmah1979 (5 October 2012)

Pale Rider said:



			It's always the handlers fault, only a knob blames the horse.
		
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That is probably true but remember, you may not be the 'knob' who has caused the problems in your horse.  

A lot of people in this thread have come out with comments along the line of, "well my horse has never needed a 'pasting'.  Hopefully that applies to most people who are lucky enough to have acquired a well-balanced, well brought up animal, which has been properly handled and trained as a youngster and so doesn't have any problems with behaviour.

Sadly not all horses have such a good start in live and I'm sure people agree that as a horse gets older the issue of ironing out discipline problems gets more difficult.  It's cases like this when throwing a brush or a headcollar at the horse might not quite be enough.....


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## Wagtail (5 October 2012)

I can't quite work out why anyone decided that natural horsemanship or Monty Roberts had anything to do with this thread. Sometimes it seems as if any excuse, people will wangle these sort of comments on to threads. I've read most of these posts and I can't see anyone recommending that QB should use Parelli or Monty methods. The closest was a suggestion that a Dually might be helpful, which is just a posh version of a rope over the nose anyway...
		
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Actually, I think Parelli is one of the harshest most dominating training methods out there.


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## MerrySherryRider (5 October 2012)

emmah1979 said:



			Sadly not all horses have such a good start in live and I'm sure people agree that as a horse gets older the issue of ironing out discipline problems gets more difficult.  It's cases like this when throwing a brush or a headcollar at the horse might not quite be enough.....
		
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Ok, you get the award for the most idiotic statement. What school of training does that little gem come from ?


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## FfionWinnie (5 October 2012)

emmah1979 said:



			Sadly not all horses have such a good start in live and I'm sure people agree that as a horse gets older the issue of ironing out discipline problems gets more difficult.  It's cases like this when *throwing a brush or a headcollar at the horse might not quite be enough*.....
		
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Seriously?  That's the sort of thing my toddler might do with a toy that wasn't doing what she wanted it to do. 

I bought a badly treated 2 year old who could not be touched other than her face. When I touched her body she kicked out at the walls constantly, I had to thread the lead rope through the hay rack and pin her head away from me because she would bite me, she once managed to get me and broke the skin on my shoulder through a Barbour jacket and several layers.  If you were stupid enough to be violent towards (a couple of farriers thought pokimg her in the ribs with the rasp was a good idea, it wasn't) her she'd give you it back in spades. 

I went to a Richard Maxwell clinic and I learnt how to deal with her. 

She matured to 16.2 and I backed her as a 3 year old and she was by that time completely normal. 

I never hit her once, I disciplined her by elbowing her in the chops when she bit me (I didn't move my arm she collided with it), kicking when being brushed was rather amusingly cured with a move from a wooden stable into a breeze block one, she kicked the walls once after the move and realised it wasn't quite as much fun as it used to be and never did it again. 

She is on loan now and in her mid teens. I didn't tell loanee about her youth as it was irrelevant to how she is now but they have had her a year now. She told me the other day how they have never had such a well mannered and sweet horse. Everyone flocks to her for a cuddle apparently and they think she is amazing. I told her about how she was as a youngster and her jaw nearly hit the floor 

I never thought of that horse as a git or anything tho, I loved her with all my heart and I knew I had to sort out her behaviour and quickly (she was on full livery and they didn't take kindly to naughty horses!).


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## Tinypony (5 October 2012)

Wagtail said:



			Actually, I think Parelli is one of the harshest most dominating training methods out there.
		
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Agreed.  But how did it get brought up here?  )


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## emmah1979 (5 October 2012)

horserider said:



			Ok, you get the award for the most idiotic statement. What school of training does that little gem come from ?
		
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Actually I was quoting AMYMAY (#239) lol


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## emmah1979 (5 October 2012)

FfionWinnie said:



			Seriously?  That's the sort of thing my toddler might do with a toy that wasn't doing what she wanted it to do. .
		
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I know - naughty AMYMAY for beating up her horse.


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## Tinypony (5 October 2012)

emmah1979 said:



			That is probably true but remember, you may not be the 'knob' who has caused the problems in your horse.  

A lot of people in this thread have come out with comments along the line of, "well my horse has never needed a 'pasting'.  Hopefully that applies to most people who are lucky enough to have acquired a well-balanced, well brought up animal, which has been properly handled and trained as a youngster and so doesn't have any problems with behaviour.

Sadly not all horses have such a good start in live and I'm sure people agree that as a horse gets older the issue of ironing out discipline problems gets more difficult.  It's cases like this when throwing a brush or a headcollar at the horse might not quite be enough.....
		
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Can I just mention the fact that I've not always been lucky enough to take in well-balanced, well brought up and trained animals without behaviour problems.  In fact, I have one in the field as we speak who came to me unable to even pass through a gateway without flattening the person leading him.  Not to mention running blindly over the top of certain people on occasion, mad panic bolting and various other interesting tricks.  I've not thrown a brush at him, beaten him with a carrot stick or given him any form of a pasting.  However, he no longer flattens people or does the mad bolting thing, so something's worked.
But then I'm lucky I guess, because my horses are all lovely and just sooo good...


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## Pale Rider (5 October 2012)

While problems with young horses mostly stem from poor handling by owners/trainers. The last thing that would do any good is advocating a Natural Horsemanship solution to people who have little or no interest in it.
Whatever techniques a person uses, they need to be good at it to train young horses.
Bringing on youngsters isn't that difficult, but you really need to know what you're doing.


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## rockysmum (6 October 2012)

PMSL poor Queenbee  

Why dont we add some barefoot in here just to keep it going even longer.  Why stop at Parelli


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## devonlass (6 October 2012)

There'a another thread just popped up regarding a rude cob that has no respect for his handler and is also kept on his own etc,although this one is by a brand new member,seems to be a lot of horses with the same problems at the mo................................................................................................................................................


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## rockysmum (6 October 2012)

devonlass said:



			There'a another thread just popped up regarding a rude cob that has no respect for his handler and is also kept on his own etc,although this one is by a brand new member,seems to be a lot of horses with the same problems at the mo................................................................................................................................................

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Oh good, off to look, bit bored tonight


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## asyouwish (6 October 2012)

Can I just ask for those putting in their posts that they don't hit their horses what they consider an elbow to the chops is? I would consider that hitting the horse really. Your still striking it in the head regardless of what part of your anatomy that you are using.

Just a musing that's all.

I think that the vast majority of the nipping going on in this thread is the terminology used, its the same for the threads where a horse has 'bolted' with the rider when its just really decided to take off for home.

Maybe if we all thought a little before we posted to really see what folk are talking about then maybe so much vitriol and nastinees and insults wouldn't occur  

Again just a musing


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## rockysmum (6 October 2012)

asyouwish said:



			Maybe if we all thought a little before we posted to really see what folk are talking about then maybe so much vitriol and nastinees and insults wouldn't occur  

Again just a musing 

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But that would spoil all of the fun


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## lastchancer (6 October 2012)

Good god this thread has run to 33 pages?

Give him some company, lots of work and firm consistent handling, not mindless yelling or battering, just some boundaries that he has to respect always.
It's not rocket science. Seriously.


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## Tormenta (6 October 2012)

lastchancer said:



			Good god this thread has run to 33 pages?

Give him some company, lots of work and firm consistent handling, not mindless yelling or battering, just some boundaries that he has to respect always.
It's not rocket science. Seriously.
		
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Absolutely!


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## Tinypony (6 October 2012)

rockysmum said:



			PMSL poor Queenbee  

Why dont we add some barefoot in here just to keep it going even longer.  Why stop at Parelli   

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I think this situation would be much improved by the removal of his shoes and the application of hoof wraps...


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## Wagtail (6 October 2012)

What the horse really needs is some draw reins.


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## SnowPhony (6 October 2012)

I've not  read all replies but I have to say getting violent with horses is not something I like seeing done.

However, I took on an extremely bad mannered highland who had been allowed to get away with everything. Dream to ride, an absolute liability on the ground at times. He would behave for so long on the yard then decide he'd had enough and would at times be dangerous.

I wasn't prepared to write him off as he knew how to behave, just often choose not too. Some things I put down to fear, others were just plain bad manners.

He'd improved greatly in the short time I had him and took him out one day and he came back really hot and sweaty. Me, yard owner and mum were on the yard, I was holding him while yard owner was sponging him off for me before I turned him out. He stood there quietly for a bit, then decided 'nah had enough' and carted off the yard with me in tow till he started fly bucking, I let go and then he started backing up towards me trying to kick me.

 Next thing you know yard owner had grabbed a whip, ran after him and smacked his arse hard 4 or 5 times while me and mum stood there open mouthed. I was fuming, grabbed my pony and took him back to the yard. 

Despite being incredibly angry that day to the point I considered moving yards, yo explained her reasons and apologised for not asking permission first. However, after that day he never, ever misbehaved to that extent on the yard and never tried to kick me again so can't argue that her method worked even if its not what I'd have done myself.


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## rockysmum (6 October 2012)

Wagtail said:



			What the horse really needs is some draw reins.
		
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Now why didn't I think of that.  Great idea, do you have some pics


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## eahotson (6 October 2012)

rockysmum said:



			Now why didn't I think of that.  Great idea, do you have some pics 

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No no don't agree. What he really needs is a tight crank nose band and a v short martingale!!! And a good twisted gag snaffle on the third hole!


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## Wagtail (6 October 2012)

Seriously though, at my local stud, if they need to lead some of the larger more boistrous stallions for any distance they put side reins on. Not saying that is practical for QB but possibly it could help break a habit if all else fails.


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## maccachic (8 October 2012)

Is everyone remembering to reward their horses?  Horses are a conscript in our riding endevours.  I regularly tell mine good boy or give him a pat for doing everyday stuff well, positive reinforcement works a lot better than negative.

Also the default question should always be whats wrong?  Not my horse is being naughty I must nip it in the bud.  Horses have to express themselves so we know something isn't right, unfortunatly sometimes owners don't listen until the horse screams (bucks, bites etc)


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## Luci07 (8 October 2012)

maccachic said:



			Is everyone remembering to reward their horses?  Horses are a conscript in our riding endevours.  I regularly tell mine good boy or give him a pat for doing everyday stuff well, positive reinforcement works a lot better than negative.

Also the default question should always be whats wrong?  Not my horse is being naughty I must nip it in the bud.  Horses have to express themselves so we know something isn't right, unfortunatly sometimes owners don't listen until the horse screams (bucks, bites etc)
		
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Or is big, bolshy and needs to be put into their space before becoming dangerous. Granted and thank heavens there are not many like that, but horses like this do exist.


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## SusieT (8 October 2012)

Any good youngstock handler shouldn't have to take the crop to any young horse, that is pure bad training. You need to get a new trainer, I suggest boundaries, and probably tbh turning him away as my guess is he's full of energy and needs to chill his head. I am no softy but if you even have to go near a chiffney with a pet horse ( as opposed to e.g a racing tb who no one is interested in putting handling work into) you need to look at yourself as a handler


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## SusieT (8 October 2012)

I may be the only one to pioint this out but without fail you get bored, frustrated horses when they are being turned out in solitary, normally inp addocks of less than an acre with nothing 'interesting' in them, just a flat grass paddock (short grass normally). As for going bonkers if brought in not first-why is your youngster so stressed all the time? Because he's young and livin in solitary isn't good for him.


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## SusieT (8 October 2012)

And last thing-if you're wanting to 'pick a fight' when the yard isn't busy it's because you are ashamed of what you are doing, because it is wrong.


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## Pinkvboots (8 October 2012)

Turn him out in company, overnight if possible sounds like his got far too much energy and just needs to live like a baby horse, his still very young to be worked everyday, so many people want to rush there young horses and some just cant cope mentally or physically.


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## Pale Rider (9 October 2012)

Spot on SusieT.


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## jrp204 (9 October 2012)

Luci07 said:



			Or is big, bolshy and needs to be put into their space before becoming dangerous. Granted and thank heavens there are not many like that, but horses like this do exist.
		
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We bought a Welsh D who was incredibly bolshy, he would barge through you, rear, because he could. If you left him in the stable he would have his front feet on the stable door, which is 4'6 high! He would barge around the stable leaning against the walls so hard they would move, it was a wooden stable. His default setting was having to be very very hard, always lead in a be nice halter and, having to carry a hard stick, not to beat him because he was the sort who would have switched off, but to poke him in the chest or shoulder to get him to move away from you. He was an absolute nightmare. 
Oh, and we did praise him when he was good.
FWIW, QB's yard does have individual turnout but the paddocks are next door to each other so horses can touch etc. horse is not shoved away in solitary.


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## jrp204 (9 October 2012)

It also pays to remember that unless you have owned your horse for its whole life it is quite possible that it is only well mannered now because at sometime in the past someone has given it a telling off.
I am not condoning beating up horses  but half a tonne of bolshy youngster is no joke and for some respect is not taught by giving it a little tickle on the chest and a carrot.


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## Tinypony (9 October 2012)

Horses in single turnout paddocks aren't getting the same interaction with others as they would if turned out with company.  Some deal with this better than others.
Question is - what do you do with a young horse exhibiting these sort of behaviours?  Do you wonder about the cause and look to deal with that?  Or decide they are just being "bad" and beat them up a bit for it.  I think what several posters are saying here is that it's very possible that this horse isn't being "inconsiderate" or "stroppy" but is simply responding to the environment in which it's kept.
(I tend to have the opposite by the way - horses that came to me lacking manners and that are now so good that people tell me how "lucky" I am.  Sigh.)


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## Amymay (9 October 2012)

SusieT said:



			I may be the only one to pioint this out but without fail you get bored, frustrated horses when they are being turned out in solitary
		
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Yep, several of us have made this point.  But good to see it made again.


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## Pale Rider (9 October 2012)

Horses live in the present. A horse that got a beating at a previous home for exhibiting 'bad' behavior, will more than likely do it at a new home.
The bolshy horse, is normally one which needs a higher level of skill to train and manage. Or of course, you could just beat it up.


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## YasandCrystal (9 October 2012)

jrp204 said:



			FWIW, QB's yard does have individual turnout but the paddocks are next door to each other so horses can touch etc. horse is not shoved away in solitary.
		
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This is not the same as being turned out in company. I would go as far to say that most yards with individual turnout have other horses in eyeshot/touch of each other, but that dioes not allow for proper interaction does it? The horses cannot play/ chase/ follow/ bite and groom each other.


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## Pale Rider (9 October 2012)

Why are isolation blocks so popular with livery?


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## eahotson (9 October 2012)

Single turnoutMy very calm sensibe Wlhcb has had the very odd day of single turnout due to different crcumstances.So long as he is within sight/sound of aother horse he copes pefectly well BUT I don't think he really likes it.He likes his friends.On the other hand we have a mare that a to have singl turnout as she has fought wit every other single horse tried out with her.


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## YasandCrystal (9 October 2012)

My WB who was on 9 months turnaway/rehab was turned out alone. This was a very conscious and deliberate decision on my part. He had been badly ridden abused and suffered chronic pain for years and the mental scars were very evident and he was not a nice horse (quite understandably) to have around.
I firstly did not want to subject him onto my other horses and secondly I did not want to risk my health with having to bring the other horses in and out of the paddocks with him loose in the herd, as he was so aggressive to people.

Come the spring/summer he has changed dramatically and is mentally in a great place now. Infact he became so uber friendly with me, he would prevent me from depooing his field, because he wanted strokes and scratches and interaction. He was clearly yearning company. I turned my youngster out with him and well they are having a ball - it was just what he needed.

So I do think there are times when individual turnout is called for, but I do not believe it has a place for youngstock, unless they are injured.


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## Luci07 (9 October 2012)

I would never EVER recommend chucking out a poorly mannered youngster overnight with a new horse. That is just the way to end up with bad injuries. The ones that go at night do so when the YO knows they are happy together. Both mine have worked their way through various combinations and finally we put them in together. 1 overly playful youngster ( not nasty, just full on ) and one old mare who has very strong likes and dislikes.  I have seen poorly behaved babies who are quite clearly either terrified or just really don't know. They are relatively easy to sort out as just need patience and boundaries. BUT seriously, if you get a large horse, that has learnt its own strength you really do have a problem and you need to sort it out. Pronto.


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## Amymay (9 October 2012)

YasandCrystal said:



			My WB who was on 9 months turnaway/rehab was turned out alone. This was a very conscious and deliberate decision on my part. He had been badly ridden abused and suffered chronic pain for years and the mental scars were very evident and he was not a nice horse (quite understandably) to have around.
I firstly did not want to subject him onto my other horses and secondly I did not want to risk my health with having to bring the other horses in and out of the paddocks with him loose in the herd, as he was so aggressive to people.

Come the spring/summer he has changed dramatically and is mentally in a great place now. Infact he became so uber friendly with me, he would prevent me from depooing his field, because he wanted strokes and scratches and interaction. He was clearly yearning company. I turned my youngster out with him and well they are having a ball - it was just what he needed.

*So I do think there are times when individual turnout is called for, but I do not believe it has a place for youngstock, unless they are injured.*

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I absolutely agree.  I can quite understand why you did it.

Like everything, there is always an exception to what people would consider the right way to manage things.


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## Tinypony (9 October 2012)

Luci07 said:



			I would never EVER recommend chucking out a poorly mannered youngster overnight with a new horse. That is just the way to end up with bad injuries. The ones that go at night do so when the YO knows they are happy together. Both mine have worked their way through various combinations and finally we put them in together. 1 overly playful youngster ( not nasty, just full on ) and one old mare who has very strong likes and dislikes.  I have seen poorly behaved babies who are quite clearly either terrified or just really don't know. They are relatively easy to sort out as just need patience and boundaries. BUT seriously, if you get a large horse, that has learnt its own strength you really do have a problem and you need to sort it out. Pronto.
		
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Have I missed something?  Nobody is advocating turning any horse out overnight with a new horse?  (I keep re-reading to see if I've missed this).  People are suggesting that QB's horse might benefit from being turned out in company.  Hopefully most people would have the sense to manage the introductions properly.


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## YasandCrystal (9 October 2012)

Pinkvboots said:



			Turn him out in company, overnight if possible sounds like his got far too much energy and just needs to live like a baby horse, his still very young to be worked everyday, so many people want to rush there young horses and some just cant cope mentally or physically.
		
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Tinypony I think it was the above post that sparked the overnight turnout comment


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## lastchancer (9 October 2012)

Pale Rider said:



			Why are isolation blocks so popular with livery?
		
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I think to reduce injury and to make turnout/bringing in easier for owners. I don't care for them, specially for youngsters.


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