# Horses coat coming out in clumps



## Hbc101291 (1 June 2016)

Hi, please help!

My mare is 24 years old and for the first time this year her coat along her back is coming out in very big clumps - one side of her back is practically bald! There are no scabs or anything wrong with her skin and she doesn't seem bothered by it. 

Anyone ever experienced the same?


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## AdorableAlice (1 June 2016)

Classic cushings.  Has she been tested.


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## Hbc101291 (1 June 2016)

I had always thought with cushings they struggle to lose their coat? No she hasn't been tested but will be doing.

Thanks!


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## Maesfen (1 June 2016)

It could also be that she's had rain scald and now she's gaining her summer coat it's just shedding the old which it will do if it was left to get right by itself.


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## applecart14 (1 June 2016)

Could it be that she is just shredding her winter coat and all of a sudden its coming out in clumps to make way for the summer coat?

_It appears that everything has cushings these days!_


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## Shay (1 June 2016)

Actually your description made me think ringworm.  If she is older teh infection might have got hold very quickly.  There are no scabs to speak of - just circular patches of coat loss.  Eventually the bald patches develop a raised ring edge - hence the name.  but its a fungal infection - not a worm.


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## HufflyPuffly (1 June 2016)

Mine can loose her coat like this, never really bothered me too much as her skin was healthy, so just put it down to her being older and making a meal of changing her coat. 

_Incidentally she does have Cushings (she's now 23 and the weird coat change started a few years ago when she was about 20) and since being treated she sheds pretty normally now and has almost finished already this year without the moth-eaten look making an appearance _


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## applecart14 (2 June 2016)

applecart14 said:



			Could it be that she is just shredding her winter coat and all of a sudden its coming out in clumps to make way for the summer coat?

_It appears that everything has cushings these days!_

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On speaking to my vet who came out the other day to treat my horse for splenic entrapment (fourth visit in a week) I asked if she could take bloods from my horse to test for cushings.  She asked me why I thought my horse had this and I pointed out that I didn't just that it was specifically because of the views of people (on this forum) and she said, like me, that she felt my horse was unlikely to have cushings. 

She explained that even is she could, she couldn't take bloods on this visit because his levels might be up and down due to the colic.  But her view was that unless the horse had laminitis she would not prescribe Prascend anyway as it would be totally inappropriate and unnecessary and also because of the side effects which she said were muscle pain, lack of appetite and subsequent weight loss, skin problems, teeth problems, heart murmurs and tiredness.


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## AdorableAlice (2 June 2016)

applecart14 said:



			Could it be that she is just shredding her winter coat and all of a sudden its coming out in clumps to make way for the summer coat?

_It appears that everything has cushings these days!_

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You will find most do when they get into their twilight years, and if you have an elderly horse that does not then you need to be very very thankful.  Research has also shown that one third of middle aged horses (10 to 15) tested, were found to be positive.


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## applecart14 (2 June 2016)

AdorableAlice said:



			You will find most do when they get into their twilight years, and if you have an elderly horse that does not then you need to be very very thankful.  Research has also shown that one third of middle aged horses (10 to 15) tested, were found to be positive.
		
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AA - I personally wouldn't give a horse a drug which could potentially cause devastating side effects because it tested positive for cushings if it didn't have laminitis or another major problem.  If it ain't broke don't fix it.

OP - It was suggested (only by people on this forum and not professionals that know the horse) that I got my horse tested for cushings. I will eventually but only out of interest and I doubt for any other reason.  I have no intention of pumping him full of something that could cause the side effects this drug causes unless he has something like laminitis and therefore needed it.  However when the vet came out to his recent colic she said that he doesn't have any symptoms of cushings that the vet could see.  He is no longer lethargic as he is out on grass and has a new lease of life which is what I suspected would happen.  He has also lost a little weight (under veterinary supervision) and is feeling and looking better for it.

He doesn't keep his coat, in fact his summer coat is nearly there with his winter coat all but shredded ages ago. He doesn't have fat pads around his eyes.  He is a good weight (has been weighed on Tuesday by Spillers nutrionist visit to yard) and his weight in within normal parameters.  His healing is second to none and always has been!  His pot belly appearance is much better due to increase in work, I am trying to get him to use his back end more and encourage him to work from behind in the odd schooling session we have done and 'tummy tucks' with carrot stretches to work his abdominal muscles (have physio coming Saturday).  He can look fat at times but as the Spillers lady said (and I agree with her) that this is due to gas from grass and she pointed out (as previously stated) that you could see his ribs so is therefore not actually fat!  In fact he is looking healthier and happier than he has in a long time and feels wonderful to ride at the moment, much more responsive and forwards going.


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## HufflyPuffly (2 June 2016)

I'm utterly horrified by your vets after this, that is appalling advice . OP please DO NOT take the above as advice, please speak to your own vets who hopefully will give you better advice...

If your horse is tested and is positive for Cushings, not treating can lead to an horrific decline and death and lots of unnecessary suffering. Some horses will have side effects, most will be tempory and very few will not tolerate the drug so yes some would have to forgo the only thing which will suppress the symptoms. But to say we wont test as treating might have unpleasant side effects is stupid and dangerous .

And as an aside this is not to tell you to have your horse treated OP or the thread hi-jacker, but if anyone is considering having their horse tested (and the free lab testing has started), please do not read the above and think that advice should be followed.


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## Casey76 (2 June 2016)

Applecart - you do realise PPID is caused by a TUMOUR in the pituitary gland don't you?  Pergolide is the only treatment for the disease, as it actually effects the pituitary gland itself.  All of the herbal remedies available, including agnus castus only treat the symptoms - and there are MANY, not only chronic laminitis -  and not the underlying cause.  As of the potential side effects... well, if my pony had a brain tumour, I'd probably look at the risk:benefit and decide that, yes, it is worth the risk of an adverse reaction (after all, the dose can be reduced, or the drug interrupted before being reintroduced).  BTW... weight for weight, a horse is taking a much, much smaller dose than what was usually prescribed to humans...


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## Pinkvboots (2 June 2016)

applecart14 said:



			On speaking to my vet who came out the other day to treat my horse for splenic entrapment (fourth visit in a week) I asked if she could take bloods from my horse to test for cushings.  She asked me why I thought my horse had this and I pointed out that I didn't just that it was specifically because of the views of people (on this forum) and she said, like me, that she felt my horse was unlikely to have cushings. 

She explained that even is she could, she couldn't take bloods on this visit because his levels might be up and down due to the colic.  But her view was that unless the horse had laminitis she would not prescribe Prascend anyway as it would be totally inappropriate and unnecessary and also because of the side effects which she said were muscle pain, lack of appetite and subsequent weight loss, skin problems, teeth problems, heart murmurs and tiredness.
		
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I really don't believe a vet would refuse to take blood to do a cushings test it's your choice as an owner if you want it done, having a fat horse with its ribs showing is also a sign of cushings it was the only symptom my mare had she never hung on to her coat she didn't drink a lot and she was far from lethargic.


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## Pinkvboots (2 June 2016)

re occurring colic can also be a symptom of cushings


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## applecart14 (2 June 2016)

Pinkvboots said:



			I really don't believe a vet would refuse to take blood to do a cushings test it's your choice as an owner if you want it done, having a fat horse with its ribs showing is also a sign of cushings it was the only symptom my mare had she never hung on to her coat she didn't drink a lot and she was far from lethargic.
		
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Why don't you read what I wrote.  She said it wasn't a good idea to take blood at the time of her visit (fourth visit in a week to a horse with nephrosplenic entrapment) because his levels would be all over the place due to his colic and she couldn't rule out the test as being efficient.  why does everyone make me out to be a liar??????  Why would I lie about such a thing anyway???????  Very weird.

And CASEY  yes if my horse had a brain tumour I would probably go with it.  But I DID STATE IN MY POST IF YOU READ IT that unless my horse had laminitis or other serious issue I would not give him this medication without a reason.

And Pinkvboots reoccurring colic (three colic episodes in two years at this yard - hardly reoccurring) is due to the gas from the grass pushing the colon up into the space between the spleen and the stomach wall and not cushings.  Previous to this yard he did have reoccurring colic which the vet said was due to the grass being very rich (quite a few horses on this yard had colic) because it was an ex dairy farm he had nephrosplenic entrapment there too because he was gassed up on the rich grass and was also dehydrated.

You can try and fit a square into a round hole all you like but in my book there is no basis for pumping a horse full of something it doesn't need and I am sure the OP is of a similar idea too.


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## applecart14 (2 June 2016)

Pinkvboots said:



			re occurring colic can also be a symptom of cushings
		
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So can billions of other things.

A headache can be a sign of a brain tumour.  Or it can be due to dehydration.  Blimey.

Alex - why is it appalling advice??? I would think it was very sensible advice.  If a horse tests positive for cushings but doesn't display symptoms why put it on medication???

If a horse has arthritis and it doesn't have pain or stiffness because of it would you put it on a pain killer?
If you xrayed a horse and found it had kissing spine but the KS caused no problems to its movement or well being would you put it through a KS operation for the sake of it?

so why give a horse something it doesn't actually require???? If it has laminitis yes, if it doesn't leave well alone in mho.


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## HufflyPuffly (2 June 2016)

...because as has been stated a horse doesn't have to SHOW symptoms for it to have the tumour, IF the tumour is present it still may not show symptoms but to not treat when you KNOW there is a tumour is then just playing a deadly waiting game for the symptoms to show.

You will not know if the first symtom will be a curly coat or an acute case a laminitis, where you knowingly have left the horse to its fate and agreed to let it suffer by not treating when you know it has the disease, it is tantamount to neglect in my opinion and if you really expect me to belive an actual vet has advised this then yes I'm appalled and would be moving vets pretty dam sharpish.

For your other cases I would expect the management of a horse to change and again not leave it to its fate until it screams loud enough for the owner to take notice, horses are stoic they will not show pain if they can help it. I know of no person where they have x-rayed a horse to find such things without there being a problem first so its a nonsensical agrument.


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## applecart14 (2 June 2016)

I'm sorry but I don't agree and don't particularly care whether you believe me or not, in fact I couldn't give a stuff.  Why would I make up such a thing, I thought it was the ideal opportunity whilst the vet was there to get him tested, save having her back out again and adding to my bill. Why on earth would I contemplate moving vets on your recommendation???? 

Anyway what makes you such a great expert?  Who says you are right.  Have you stopped to think that maybe the current way of thinking has changed and vets don't like don't give out this medication anymore.  Maybe research has been updated.  Who knows, but I would rather be guided by a vet than some people on a forum any day of the week.


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## gunnergundog (2 June 2016)

AlexHyde said:



			...because as has been stated a horse doesn't have to SHOW symptoms for it to have the tumour, IF the tumour is present it still may not show symptoms but to not treat when you KNOW there is a tumour is then just playing a deadly waiting game for the symptoms to show.

.
		
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Applecart - let's try a different scenario and tell me what you would do if you found yourself in this position.  

You get to a certain age (my age) when you get offered regular mammograms;  you get a call back on one and a second one plus biopsy confirms you have breast cancer.  Your lumps are not detectable/palpable (by you or specialist), you display no symptoms whatsoever: no changes to the skin or nipple, no tenderness/pain etc etc.  MRI confirms cancer not spread.  So, would you avail yourself of the advised lumpectomy, radiotherapy and tamoxifen or would you wait until the lumps grew and became palpable or you started displaying other symptoms?


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## Beausmate (2 June 2016)

applecart14 said:



			If a horse tests positive for cushings but doesn't display symptoms why put it on medication???

If it has laminitis yes, if it doesn't leave well alone in mho.
		
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Simple really, to keep the horse symptom-free for as long as possible.  Laminitis is a hideous condition, very often caused by PPID.  Why wouldn't you want to try to prevent that?  

Knowing your horse may have Cushing's and ignoring the fact until something serious (and possibly irreversible) happens is tantamount to playing Russian roulette with your horse's health.

It is worth testing, if only to rule it out.


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## Pinkvboots (2 June 2016)

No one is telling you to pump your horse full of drugs when he doesn't need them,  the main symptoms of curly coat non shedding and excessive drinking are all fairly advanced symptoms which indicates a horse has had the condition a fair while, having had 2 horses test positive without any of those symptoms would suggest that other things start to happen before all these do, so it would be wise to look out for the early tell tale signs as research shows its a very common condition and not always in the elderly horse as we once thought.


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## applecart14 (2 June 2016)

Obviously if the above scenario were real then I would have all the treatment as it has been proven that I would have cancer in that scenario.

But nothing has been proven in my horses case as I've not had the test yet.

I've been advised by four different people (two of which are professional) not to give my horse a course of Prascend IF he was found to have cushings AND DID NOT have laminitis or other serious problem.  I am not sure what to believe but would tend to believe those people over others on the forum who are not professionals and an expert in their fields.

Whilst I see where you are coming from Gunnerdog I would always be guided by my vet as they are the ones who are most up to date in current research and have seen cases for themselves.

The other person is someone who initially gave her pony prascend but has now taken her off it (on vets advice) and another person who had a mare diagnosed at 13 with cushings, it never had treatment and lived until it was in its thirties and it died of something unrelated.  The vets were interested in her mares particular case and offered to undertake a post mortem and nothing was found in its body that could have been attributed to its death by cushings.

I can only go by what I have been told.  (Nor am I lying I can assure you as I have nothing to gain by doing so).

And to suggest that I get rid of my vet as their opinion doesn't go with what a HH forum user thinks is ridiculous in its extreme.


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## HufflyPuffly (2 June 2016)

I'll bite as I think this is the only reason you get wrapped up in these arguments.



applecart14 said:



			I'm sorry but I don't agree and don't particularly care whether you believe me or not, in fact I couldn't give a stuff.  Why would I make up such a thing, I thought it was the ideal opportunity whilst the vet was there to get him tested, save having her back out again and adding to my bill. Why on earth would I contemplate moving vets on your recommendation????
		
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I didn't say you should move vet, I said I would move vets.




applecart14 said:



			Anyway what makes you such a great expert?  Who says you are right.  Have you stopped to think that maybe the current way of thinking has changed and vets don't like don't give out this medication anymore.  Maybe research has been updated.  Who knows, but I would rather be guided by a vet than some people on a forum any day of the week.  

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The vast amount of scientfic research that is being done points to this not me, if you wish to look any up its all out there to find. I am of a scientific mind (education and now work), so I keep myself as up to date as I can by researching and attending clinics run by vets on this matter as it is now of personal interest. I write on here as my own opinion and would always say ask your own vet for advice, as I have stated earlier in this thread.

Please point me to the evidence to support your ideas if you feel so strongly about them, or where your vets got their information from.


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## Swirlymurphy (2 June 2016)

Poor OP quite frankly.  I have nothing to add but extend my sympathy for your thread being hijacked when you were after some sensible advice.  I'd suggest having a chat with your vet as a first step.


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## Damnation (2 June 2016)

Swirlymurphy said:



			Poor OP quite frankly.  I have nothing to add but extend my sympathy for your thread being hijacked when you were after some sensible advice.  I'd suggest having a chat with your vet as a first step.
		
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This.

Poor OP - it seems to have turned into a p*ssing contest in here.

I would take pictures and send them to your Vet if possible and see if they think it is worrying. It could just be your horse, or it could be something more sinister, you won't know until the vet has seen the affected areas


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## HufflyPuffly (2 June 2016)

Damnation said:



			This.

Poor OP - it seems to have turned into a p*ssing contest in here.

I would take pictures and send them to your Vet if possible and see if they think it is worrying. It could just be your horse, or it could be something more sinister, you won't know until the vet has seen the affected areas 

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Yes apologies OP , I agree with those above that if you're worried then asking your vet is probably best, I just couldn't ignore such poor advice about the cushings part !


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## Regandal (2 June 2016)

applecart14 said:



			Whilst I see where you are coming from Gunnerdog I would always be guided by my vet as they are the ones who are most up to date in current research and have seen cases for themselves.
		
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I wouldn't bank on that.  Always do your own research.


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## applecart14 (3 June 2016)

I spoke to a friend last night at the same yard I am on.  Her horse tested positive for cushings on three separate occasions (I am not sure why it was tested three times I never asked). Her vet told her not to bother with treatment either unless the horse had laminitis as Prascend is a powerful and expensive drug and unless required is not necessary. She uses a different vets practice to me. 

My YO had a very aged pony on it (yet again a different vet to my friend and my vets).  She has now taken her pony off it on her vets advice.  I have done my own research but I am also guided by my vet.  Another livery on the yard who yet again uses a different vet to mine had her horse diagnosed with cushings when she was 13.  She was never treated.  Upon its death (natural causes) in its late 30's her vet asked if she would let them PM it as they wanted to see the damage (if any) caused by not treating the animal.  She duly consented and there was no discernible damage to the horse.  The horse had always been healthy, happy and in work (albeit quiet work)  until three days before its death.

I HAVE NOT hijacked the OP's post.  I have answered Alex Hyde's question and the person who asked me what I would do in the cancer scenario.  Just because you don't like the answer I have given to these questions, please don't now tell me I have now hijacked the post.  To say my reply isn't sensible when it doesn't agree with your views is disgusting SwirlMurphy. I have as much right to my view as yours, because it is different doesn't mean it is wrong.  That is four different vets now all with the same answer.

The questions were asked and were answered.  And they are relative (in a way) to the question initially asked by the OP when someone suggested it was cushings in the first place.

We all do things in different ways.  I am sick of being branded a liar and 'not doing the best by my horse' when I listen to the advice of those nearest to me who have had personal experiences with cushings and who have been guided by their own vets as have I.  Vets don't go to university and spend seven years learning about animals to then have people who are not vets and think better criticize them on this forum. As far as I am concerned I trust my vet implicitly and always will over people on this forum (the minority of whom) are determined to slate me and slag me off and constantly criticize to get me to rise to the bait.   

I will not be adding anything further to this post but would plead with the OP if he/she is in any doubt to take the advice of her own vet over people on this forum.


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## Damnation (3 June 2016)

This thread has turned into bickering over the treatment options for a disease this horse may not even have purely because everyone wants to be right, yet not one of us has seen this horse, or is a vet.

Get over yourselves, accept other peoples opinons and move on with life. We are supposed to be adults.


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## FfionWinnie (3 June 2016)

applecart14 said:



			If a horse has arthritis and it doesn't have pain or stiffness because of it would you put it on a pain killer?
If you xrayed a horse and found it had kissing spine but the KS caused no problems to its movement or well being would you put it through a KS operation for the sake of it?

so why give a horse something it doesn't actually require???? If it has laminitis yes, if it doesn't leave well alone in mho.
		
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Well we all know you wouldn't. Just like you don't think lameness is a sign of pain . You really are getting to be a bore taking over other folks threads with your nonsense.


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## Swirlymurphy (3 June 2016)

[ Just because you don't like the answer I have given to these questions, please don't now tell me I have now hijacked the post.  To say my reply isn't sensible when it doesn't agree with your views is disgusting SwirlMurphy. I have as much right to my view as yours, because it is different doesn't mean it is wrong.  That is four different vets now all with the same answer.
]

Woah, easy there tiger!    I have no idea whether your view is right or wrong and I couldn't care less.  I wouldn't dream of getting involved - you look after your horse the way you want to, and that's fine with me.  I was pointing out that what the OP wanted were some answers to her question rather than watching an argument unfold between posters who have some history and who know how to push each others buttons.


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## HufflyPuffly (3 June 2016)

Please leave me out of it, you hi-jacked it on post 8, if you wanted a discussion on Cushings you should have started your own thread and not derailed this one. I responded as the advise was poor.


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## applecart14 (3 June 2016)

FfionWinnie said:



			Well we all know you wouldn't. Just like you don't think lameness is a sign of pain . You really are getting to be a bore taking over other folks threads with your nonsense.
		
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That is really nasty and unkind.  And totally unnecessary FW by the way.  

And yes believe or not a horse can sometimes appear lame or unsound and its cause is NOT caused by pain. Sometimes it can also be attributed to mechanical lameness as a result of constriction of a tendon or ligament as was in my horses case with the scar tissue by his ligament.  And it can be attributed to neurological deficit too.


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## Michen (3 June 2016)

You are all as bad as eachother lol! 

OP I know nothing very little about cushings but it's definitely worth getting it checked. If you head over to the tack room I think ester had posted about it being free this month or something... The test that is. Worth doing for piece of mind. 

For what is worth my friends 25 year old Cushings mare really didn't get on with the medication and is symptom free off medication with careful diet management. Never had lami. But I think the medication does seek to be very effective for most horses.


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## Michen (3 June 2016)

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?730106-Public-service-announcement


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## FfionWinnie (3 June 2016)

Swirlymurphy said:



			[ Just because you don't like the answer I have given to these questions, please don't now tell me I have now hijacked the post.  To say my reply isn't sensible when it doesn't agree with your views is disgusting SwirlMurphy. I have as much right to my view as yours, because it is different doesn't mean it is wrong.  That is four different vets now all with the same answer.
]

Woah, easy there tiger!    I have no idea whether your view is right or wrong and I couldn't care less.  I wouldn't dream of getting involved - you look after your horse the way you want to, and that's fine with me.  I was pointing out that what the OP wanted were some answers to her question rather than watching an argument unfold between posters who have some history and who know how to push each others buttons.
		
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I think that is rather unfair to AlexHyde. I have not seen any sign of her "pushing buttons"!   

AC14 regularly derails threads in this manner, including a terribly important and very sensitive one in clubhouse just the other day! accusing yorksG, who is a long term and highly respected member, of being a multiple account of another highly respected long term member!

No one is allowed to disagree with AC14 and if you do, you are accused of being a bully or a clique or her most recent one, the same person as anyone else who happens to agree with you.


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## darli (3 June 2016)

Hi OP,

My 26yr old mare has always done this. Particularly on the backs of her hind legs.  I used to have the vet out each summer but they have never been able to explain it.  She has never been bothered by it, has recently been tested for Cushings(negative).  I would give your vet a call Just to put your mind at rest.


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## ester (3 June 2016)

Gosh and I wasn't even here, almost like I don't stalk particular people as claimed 

Nothing to add other than I think my post shared earlier that the lab fees for cushings test are now free. http://www.talkaboutlaminitis.co.uk/

So little reason why not even if for peace of mind OP, my chap doesn't really tick any of the symptoms boxes but even after knowing him for a 11 years I know signs could be very subtle. I would rather know so that I know a) how careful I need to be with him with grass etc cos lets face it lami at their ages is never going to be good or b) know I can medicate if required. Also it is pretty much understood that there will likely be a lot of symptoms going on internally that we don't really see, so choosing not to medicate because he hadn't yet had lami or something equally welfare problematic/catastrophic wouldn't be me. It is a bit late to wait for the lami and then treat IMO. We are booked in next friday alongside a mites jab and soundness check.
I would get the vet out so they can have look see and get a voucher printed off for the free lab test if you decide that is worth checking too . I would be interested to know if she is and the vet thinks it is related to the coat loss.


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