# Dr. Brian May's SAVE ME CAMPAIGN



## Scratchline (18 April 2010)

Dear members, Brian May the Queen guitarist has started a campaign to save our wildlife from the brutal inhumane slaughter they used to face at the hands of now illegal hunting.
Having gained nearly six thousand supporters in only a few days this really is a cause for us all to support. I have added my voice please consider adding yours.

Use your vote to ensure that the present laws protecting animals from cruelty are kept in place, more carefully monitored, legally tightened up, and fully enforced.
We are a group of people who believe that every creature deserves a decent life and a decent death. We are not a charity, and we are not affiliated to any political party. We are therefore free in the coming weeks to support any political candidate we choose  any politician who serves the needs of animals. 
We believe that there is a grave danger that Britain will soon revert to the barbaric past, when it was legal to hunt down our wildlife with dogs. The current Tory party leadership has vowed, if they win this coming election, to try to repeal the Hunting Act  a law which it took animal-lovers 80 years, and 700 hours of parliamentary debate to bring into effect, by democratic process, in accordance with the will of at least 75 per cent of the population. 
IF this law were repealed, it would become legal to hunt to the death, with brutalised packs of dogs, not only foxes, but stags, hares, and other wild creatures in Britains countryside. 
The Tory party leadership has also confirmed that it will immediately dismantle the current 5-year plan for vaccinating badgers against Bovine TB, and instigate a cull instead; in effect, nothing less than the eventual extermination of our native badgers. 
We believe that the British public needs to be clearly told the truth. We do not want the next government of Britain to be able to bully the whole of Britain into policies supported only by a minority  a minority that cannot let go of blood sports. 
We as a group pledge to support any candidate, of any political party, who promises to vote against a repeal of the Hunting law, and against a Badger Cull. We will also help any candidate campaigning to improve the treatment of wild animals, farm animals, laboratory animals, and domestic animals. 
We already have supporters from all three major parties


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## marmalade76 (18 April 2010)

What a shame - I love Queen!

If he was campaigning to save children from inhumane treatment, I'd be all for it!


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## Tormenta (18 April 2010)

Do you have a link?

I'll be voting sensibly anyway  If there is such a thing!


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## perfect11s (18 April 2010)

marmalade76 said:



			What a shame - I love Queen!

If he was campaigning to save children from inhumane treatment, I'd be all for it!
		
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I Agree and something about long distance transport of livestock /horses  but then thats not any good for the large class war element of most of these nutty groups, 
And a badger cull is long overdue we need to help our agriculture and TB is a major problem
that a prompt cull will help....


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## the watcher (18 April 2010)

Musicians should stick to what they are good at, and avoid subjects they know nothing about...same goes for actors.


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## muffinino (18 April 2010)

Scratchline said:



			Dear members, Brian May the Queen guitarist has started a campaign to save our wildlife from the brutal inhumane slaughter they used to face at the hands of now illegal hunting.
Having gained nearly six thousand supporters in only a few days this really is a cause for us all to support. I have added my voice please consider adding yours.

Use your vote to ensure that the present laws protecting animals from cruelty are kept in place, more carefully monitored, legally tightened up, and fully enforced.
We are a group of people who believe that every creature deserves a decent life and a decent death. We are not a charity, and we are not affiliated to any political party. We are therefore free in the coming weeks to support any political candidate we choose  any politician who serves the needs of animals. 
We believe that there is a grave danger that Britain will soon revert to the barbaric past, when it was legal to hunt down our wildlife with dogs. The current Tory party leadership has vowed, if they win this coming election, to try to repeal the Hunting Act  a law which it took animal-lovers 80 years, and 700 hours of parliamentary debate to bring into effect, by democratic process, in accordance with the will of at least 75 per cent of the population. 
IF this law were repealed, it would become legal to hunt to the death, with brutalised packs of dogs, not only foxes, but stags, hares, and other wild creatures in Britains countryside. 
The Tory party leadership has also confirmed that it will immediately dismantle the current 5-year plan for vaccinating badgers against Bovine TB, and instigate a cull instead; in effect, nothing less than the eventual extermination of our native badgers. 
We believe that the British public needs to be clearly told the truth. We do not want the next government of Britain to be able to bully the whole of Britain into policies supported only by a minority  a minority that cannot let go of blood sports. 
We as a group pledge to support any candidate, of any political party, who promises to vote against a repeal of the Hunting law, and against a Badger Cull. We will also help any candidate campaigning to improve the treatment of wild animals, farm animals, laboratory animals, and domestic animals. 
We already have supporters from all three major parties
		
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lol@the above!

You do realise that this is the Horse & Hound forum, don't you? Clue's in the name


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## CorvusCorax (18 April 2010)

Save Me is one of my favourite Queen songs. Oh well.

Brutalised packs of dogs? Careful now!


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## attheponies (18 April 2010)

Not everyone who rides, reads Horse & Hound or contributes to this forum is pro-hunting as shown by many of  the previous threads!


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## Scratchline (18 April 2010)

marmalade76 said:



			What a shame - I love Queen!

If he was campaigning to save children from inhumane treatment, I'd be all for it!
		
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I take it you know what other campaigning he is involved having made such a bold statement?


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## Scratchline (18 April 2010)

Tormenta said:



			Do you have a link?

I'll be voting sensibly anyway  If there is such a thing! 

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Sorry I just seem unable to do links having previously tried and failed.


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## Scratchline (18 April 2010)

the watcher said:



			Musicians should stick to what they are good at, and avoid subjects they know nothing about...same goes for actors.
		
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Considering David Cameron chose to invlove Gary Barlow in his campaigning Brian May is surely also allowed his opinion.


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## Scratchline (18 April 2010)

muffinino said:



			lol@the above!

You do realise that this is the Horse & Hound forum, don't you? Clue's in the name 

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You do realise the vast majority of forum members have not shown themselves to be pro hunting. Perhaps it will soon just be Horse magazine lol


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## Scratchline (18 April 2010)

perfect11s said:



			I Agree and something about long distance transport of livestock /horses  but then thats not any good for the large class war element of most of these nutty groups,
		
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Do you also know what other campaigns he is involved in or are you also just being flippant?


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## rosie fronfelen (18 April 2010)

i am curious about the comment"brutalised packs of dogs"?


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## perfect11s (18 April 2010)

Scratchline said:



			Do you also know what other campaigns he is involved in or are you also just being flippant?
		
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  I coulden't care less, no   not being filppant Im sick of these hasbeens with there potty views  insulated as they are from real life by wealth and toady hanger ons and arse licking  staff.. OK kid ???


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## angelish (18 April 2010)

lmas hi everyone im new to this so go easy on me, ive read about trolls is this one lol


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## lachlanandmarcus (18 April 2010)

if its charmingly misguided and lives under a bridge, I guess so....

...I am strangely unimpressed by elderly guitar hero astrophysicists's expertise on foxhunting and badgers...happy he has his view but it has no more and no less validity than anyone elses so why anyone would be impressed by it I have no idea.

(and I am a huge queen fan, have the 1984 and 1986 tour programmes to prove it so not anti Brian but think he is being a tw£$)


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## Scratchline (19 April 2010)

perfect11s said:



			I coulden't care less, no   not being filppant Im sick of these hasbeens with there potty views  insulated as they are from real life by wealth and toady hanger ons and arse licking  staff.. OK kid ???
		
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OK kid?! Get away with you.

Now dont worry about Dr.Brian. it is only a back up campaign that with each ticking day before the election is getting less and less necessary. Hunting foxes with packs of hounds is finished and the way things are going it is about to become an ever more tightened law.
Put that in your horn and Tally ho!


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## jrp204 (19 April 2010)

I suppose when you have a huge income and a known name its easy to shout. TB is a HUGE problem in cornwall and is steadily increasing across other areas of the country. No farmer wants to see a total cull of badgers but does want a devastating disease controlled, since the disease is most prevalant in cattle and badgers why is it ok to cull the cattle but not the badgers, this is not good disease control but purely playing to peoples ideas of badgers being cute fluffy things. Farmers cannot carry on indefinately losing money and have or will get out of livestock farming which will no doubt suit some people but since the majority of the population are still meat eaters will they be satisfied with their meat coming from argentina, brazil or other far flung places where disease control and husbandry is not a priority (foot and mouth etc), where it is ok to destroy habitats (rainforests) to create grazing. 
I don't know what the answer is but after over 40 yrs of research into TB surely someone has to do something, you cannot vaccinate an infected animal be it cattle or badger (alpaca, deer) so you can either let them be and let them continue to infect others or you cull them and vaccinate the uninfected. We have seen infected dying badgers, they are thin with infected open sores and are not a pretty sight and it has been shown that it is usually infected badgers that will be found in cattle sheds and feed houses, it is very hard to badger proof everything since they are very efficient at destroying fencing etc. It is also hugely expensive.
So Mr May, as an intelligent man what would be your answer?


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## Scratchline (19 April 2010)

tracythirlwall said:



			lmas hi everyone im new to this so go easy on me, ive read about trolls is this one lol
		
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New or old there is still confusion lol This isnt the home of hunting Trace, Horse and Hound is the home of Equestrianism. The vast majority on this forum are anti hunting and dont bother with this washed up bunch of has-beens.


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## Scratchline (19 April 2010)

Good post jrp. Have you thought of putting it directly to him for an answer on the SAVE ME fb page? You will not be shot down in flames asking such a thoughtfull and well put question and it definately deserves an answer. M


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## perfect11s (19 April 2010)

Scratchline said:



			OK kid?! Get away with you.

Now dont worry about Dr.Brian. it is only a back up campaign that with each ticking day before the election is getting less and less necessary. Hunting foxes with packs of hounds is finished and the way things are going it is about to become an ever more tightened law.
Put that in your horn and Tally ho!
		
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Maybe you should remember to take your medication or perhaps ask your doctor to prescribe something a little stronger........................


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## Scratchline (19 April 2010)

perfect11s said:



			Maybe you should remember to take your medication or perhaps ask your doctor to prescribe something a little stronger........................
		
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Please in future stic to posting only things you would say to my face brave little one!


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## Scratchline (19 April 2010)

To those of you who question Brian May's involvement in such a harsh way someone else has already tried it lol

This courtesy of Bri's blog via the SAVE ME campaign ( with permission).

**Mon 19 Apr 10**
HUNTING: ROCK STAR WARNED OFF 

Councillor David Parsons wrote:

Queen guitarist Brian May may have jumped on the anti-hunting stage, but I fear people in rural communities are not going to take lectures from a cosseted London rock star on how the countryside should be run.

The Quorn Hunt and others like it are part of the fabric of our countryside tradition.

Many people who haven't made millions from the music industry have traditionally relied on it to help their living, or in the case of farmers, defending their livestock.

This is a subject that needs to be debated by those who know about it, rather than a rock celebrity who has not chafed his hands on anything other than a guitar neck.

Councillor David Parsons, leader, Leicestershire County Council.

---

Brian replied : 

EMBARRASSING COUNCILLOR WARNED OFF

Dear David,

I just read your attack on myself and my campaign against the repeal of the Hunting Act, in the local Leicester newspaper.  News travels fast, these days 

How dare you presume to judge me, and insult me? You don't know anything about me, little man.  A "cosseted London rock star", am I?  You have absolutely no idea about what it cost me to get where I am, or how chafed my hands are.  I assume yours are chafed by the pen you push. 

I live in the Country too, you ignorant man. I know exactly what I am talking about. And since I began this campaign, I have been deluged with letters from country people, including farmers, who regard the Hunt as a menace to their livestock, their pets, their property, and even their children. You are a disgrace to your office, and I hope the majority of the good people of Leicestershire will soon remove you from it. I'm glad to see some of them have already told you what an embarrassment you are. Countryside Tradition my arse. Oh! You are defending people's livestock from the bad foxes, are you?  What a brave man. 



Well, you'd better be as brave as your words, because if you ever come within sniffing distance of me I'll have your guts for garters, you pathetic, arrogant, jumped-up, snivelling little dweeb. 

Dr. Brian May, CBE.


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## rosie fronfelen (19 April 2010)

if this is what Brian May really said, its not really  fitting language for a "DR" or a CBE is it!!!! doctor of what, may i ask/


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## rosie fronfelen (19 April 2010)

Scratchline, please answer my question on the "brutalised packs of dogs".


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## rosie fronfelen (19 April 2010)

oh, astro physicist is he,not well informed on the countryside and country matters then, more of the stars then!! (excuse the pun!!)


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## Scratchline (19 April 2010)

rosiefronfelen said:



			if this is what Brian May really said, its not really  fitting language for a "DR" or a CBE is it!!!! doctor of what, may i ask/
		
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I am far more concerned by the outspoken comments by a supposed leader of a council attacking Brian tbh. The reply he recieved from Brian was well deserved.
Dr.May got his phd in astrophysics in 2007


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## Scratchline (19 April 2010)

rosiefronfelen said:



			oh, astro physicist is he,not well informed on the countryside and country matters then, more of the stars then!! (excuse the pun!!)
		
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There really is no point throwing this countryside nonsense anymore. We, the vast majority in the countryside dont support you either. I think you should go and look at the Minority pastime video.


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## CorvusCorax (19 April 2010)

*dogs, Scratchy, what about the dogs?*


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## Scratchline (19 April 2010)

rosiefronfelen said:



			Scratchline, please answer my question on the "brutalised packs of dogs".
		
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I am not sure what he means. My take on it would be that the hunt take a group of young hounds who have absolutely nothing in their nature that would make them wish to attack foxes and create a situation where they are forced to go against their own instincts.
Its called cubbing and it brutalises otherwise innocent young hounds.


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## CorvusCorax (19 April 2010)

Erm...my dog chases all things small and furry and he is not a hound of any description, he is a pastoral breed, it's called prey drive, it has been inbuilt over 100 years and has been adapted for many uses, including their original use, to herd (it's chasing, without catching, essentially) and for protection work (chasing and holding), hounds have been around for a lot longer as well you know and as a knowledgeable doggy man I would have expected more from you Scratch.

I would respect you more if you would just accept that is a duff comment!


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## Tinkerbee (19 April 2010)

Pah. What is a "decent death" when its at home?

Blasted with a gun? Snared? Gassed? Mown down on the roads? Or a happy demise in the care of St Tiggywinkles?


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## Scratchline (19 April 2010)

CaveCanem said:



			Erm...my dog chases all things small and furry and he is not a hound of any description, he is a pastoral breed, it's called prey drive, it has been inbuilt over 100 years and has been adapted for many uses, including their original use, to herd (it's chasing, without catching, essentially) and for protection work (chasing and holding), hounds have been around for a lot longer as well you know and as a knowledgeable doggy man I would have expected more from you Scratch.

I would respect you more if you would just accept that is a duff comment!
		
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As a doggy man who spends all his free time out and about in the countryside I have had numerous encounters, planned and unplanned with our foxy friend with different breeds of dog. And pretty much everytime day or night on coming face to face with a fox the dog doesnt know what to do but certainly doesnt attack it! Chase it all day but if the fox is in front of it the dog will not attack.


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## Scratchline (19 April 2010)

I would respect you more if you would just accept that is a duff comment!
		
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On that note the duff comments about the lead hound and the nip to the neck. True or not? lol


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## Scratchline (19 April 2010)

Tinkerbee said:



			Pah. What is a "decent death" when its at home?

Blasted with a gun? Snared? Gassed? Mown down on the roads? Or a happy demise in the care of St Tiggywinkles? 



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All of the St Tiggywinkles will be resting in peace and the ban will still be in place thankfully.


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## CorvusCorax (19 April 2010)

Scratchline said:



			As a doggy man who spends all his free time out and about in the countryside I have had numerous encounters, planned and unplanned with our foxy friend with different breeds of dog. And pretty much everytime day or night on coming face to face with a fox the dog doesnt know what to do but certainly doesnt attack it! Chase it all day but if the fox is in front of it the dog will not attack.
		
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I thought you bred bull greyhounds/lurchers? Or were at least aware of them? They will certainly take down a fox.

Our prey du jour is currently the Irish hare, luckily for them they are protected and my dog is known as Captain Slow - although if he got within spitting distance of a fox I have no doubt he would take it on.
I have done nothing to encourage this behaviour and I would rather he didn't, for my own sanity.


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## Scratchline (19 April 2010)

CaveCanem said:



			I thought you bred bull greyhounds/lurchers? Or were at least aware of them? They will certainly take down a fox.
		
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Yes and yes but I would have let them run around in the street surrounded by children or other peoples pets either. Other lurchers, terriers etc I have had just saw a fox as another dog, a bit of a wierd smelling one and wouldnt have dreamt of attacking it.
My point is simply young hounds will not freely go out and attack/kill foxes.


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## CorvusCorax (19 April 2010)

We'll have to agree to disagree on that one, my fella has seen one from a distance and I definitely had to hang on tight, there was a bit of the red mist about him 

Most dogs will take prey by the neck in my experience. That is how you can debunk a lot of these big cat sightings/killings - because the sheep are always taken from the neck.
Look at a cheetah taking down a gazelle, always from the back.
Look at a dogfight, most of the time, they go for the neck.
Years ago I called a dog off a sheep (no comment!!!) and she was standing over it with her mouth poised over it's neck. Sheep survived. Dog got a rollicking.


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## marmalade76 (19 April 2010)

Scratchline said:



			I take it you know what other campaigning he is involved having made such a bold statement?
		
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I have no idea of any other campaigns that Brian supports, apart from AIDS, perhaps.

I am actually quite surprised to hear about this, I have never heard of Brian, or any other members of Queen, using their fame to support anything other than music (except for Live Aid and AIDS charities) and I never had him down as a bunny hugger.


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## CorvusCorax (19 April 2010)

He doesn't hug them, he allows them to live in his hair.


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## marmalade76 (19 April 2010)

perfect11s said:



			I coulden't care less, no   not being filppant Im sick of these hasbeens with there potty views  insulated as they are from real life by wealth and toady hanger ons and arse licking  staff.. OK kid ???
		
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As much as I love Queen (I was brought up to be a fan, I even went to one of their concerts when I was an embryo!), I have to agree with perfect11s there.


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## marmalade76 (19 April 2010)

Scratchline said:



			As a doggy man who spends all his free time out and about in the countryside I have had numerous encounters, planned and unplanned with our foxy friend with different breeds of dog. And pretty much everytime day or night on coming face to face with a fox the dog doesnt know what to do but certainly doesnt attack it! Chase it all day but if the fox is in front of it the dog will not attack.
		
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I have to disagree here, a friend of mine found a fox in her hen house once, and as she chased it out into the yard, her dalmatian grabbed it and killed it. AFAIA, dalmatians are not a hunting breed, and this dog had never been worked or trained in any way, he was just a pet.


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## marmalade76 (19 April 2010)

Scratchline said:



			New or old there is still confusion lol This isnt the home of hunting Trace, Horse and Hound is the home of Equestrianism. The vast majority on this forum are anti hunting and dont bother with this washed up bunch of has-beens.
		
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That is a rather bold statement! 

Why not do a poll and prove it?


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## Amymay (19 April 2010)

This is the link - if anyone wants to read more.

http://www.save-me.org.uk/


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## rosie fronfelen (19 April 2010)

Scratchline, if this is what May has said, if, then he a) wants to learn some manners by speaking as such to a public forum as he comes over as an illiterate idiot - unworthy of any recognition, never mind a CBE,and b) his description of young hounds, just been entered is totally untrue and therefore totally misleading.hounds are bred to hunt and as pups soon pick up all sorts of scents, they have been bred for a specific job for hundreds of years so to say they are brutalised is a wicked thing to write. i'd tell him myself if i had half a chance- he should hang his head in shame!!!


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## rosie fronfelen (19 April 2010)

yes, lets have a poll from the almighty ones who say they know better than the hunters.


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## Luci07 (19 April 2010)

marmalade76 said:



			That is a rather bold statement! 

Why not do a poll and prove it?
		
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Its not bold, its extremely insulting. While discussions can get out of hand on this forum, with regards to the subject of hunting, there is normally a fairly well balanced argument for and against - without insulting either side. Do not presume to speak on my behalf or attempt to bully me with your poorly researched arguments. 

Oh BTW - born, brought up and still living in ..... the countryside..


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## angelish (19 April 2010)

i am in fact a washed up has been lol ,im also on the side of the fox and would still like to see them around in the future and thats not going to be the case if people continue to go around snaring , gasing and shooting at them allowing them to limp around and starve to death leaving cubs to die . i too used to be a bunny hugger untill i knew more about hunting and now i belive its much less cruel than all of the above . The behavior of some antis also really does not help . (formerly trac managed to sort it lol )


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## marmalade76 (20 April 2010)

Luci07 said:



			Its not bold, its extremely insulting. While discussions can get out of hand on this forum, with regards to the subject of hunting, there is normally a fairly well balanced argument for and against - without insulting either side. Do not presume to speak on my behalf or attempt to bully me with your poorly researched arguments. 

Oh BTW - born, brought up and still living in ..... the countryside..
		
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I have presumed nothing - it was Scratchline who presumed that the majority of forum members are anti-hunting, I have merely invited him to post a poll to back up his claim.


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## CorvusCorax (20 April 2010)

Dammit, no one liked my joke


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## marmalade76 (20 April 2010)

I was just thinking to myself that I should have replied to you're joke!

Yes, I did find it funny


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## CorvusCorax (20 April 2010)

Hurray. People don't laugh at my jokes very often, you'll be surprised to know


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## marmalade76 (20 April 2010)

Oh dear, I just realised that I typed 'you're' instead of 'your' and my editing time has ran out. 

My only excuse is it's late, and I'm bleeding deep inside............


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## JanetGeorge (20 April 2010)

Scratchline said:



			My point is simply young hounds will not freely go out and attack/kill foxes.
		
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Having 'walked' more than a dozen young foxhounds, from the age of 8 weeks, I can assure you that is absolute nonsense!!  All the pups I walked had chased a fox by the time they were 6 months old with NO encouragement.  Two 5 month old bitches but up a fox in my woods and finally lost it two miles away - they then flagged down a passing motorist who took them home with her where they proceeded to hunt her ducks!!  (She was very pleased when I collected them! )

The hunting instinct has been selectively bred into hounds for hundreds of years!  The only 'training' you have to give a foxhound is to train it NOT to hunt other species!  And as they're not trained to retrieve, killing the fox is a pretty inevitable outcome of catching it!

Other breeds that have been bred for other jobs - eg - Golden Retrievers -will still almost ALWAYS kill a rat instantly when they catch it (because they know instinctively it will bite!)  My Golden regularly caught rabbits and NEVER deliberately killed one - he'd bring it back to me - although the odd one expired on the way!  Thankfully, he wasn't so thoughtful with rats - snap, dead!


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## CorvusCorax (20 April 2010)

Haha, nice, I like it...if I wasn't for bed soon we could keep the whole thread going like that


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## Scratchline (20 April 2010)

marmalade76 said:



			I have to disagree here, a friend of mine found a fox in her hen house once, and as she chased it out into the yard, her dalmatian grabbed it and killed it. AFAIA, dalmatians are not a hunting breed, and this dog had never been worked or trained in any way, he was just a pet.
		
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I happily accept that but would suggest it was a one off rather than the norm with dogs.


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## Scratchline (20 April 2010)

rosiefronfelen said:



			Scratchline, if this is what May has said, if, then he a) wants to learn some manners by speaking as such to a public forum as he comes over as an illiterate idiot - unworthy of any recognition, never mind a CBE,and b) his description of young hounds, just been entered is totally untrue and therefore totally misleading.hounds are bred to hunt and as pups soon pick up all sorts of scents, they have been bred for a specific job for hundreds of years so to say they are brutalised is a wicked thing to write. i'd tell him myself if i had half a chance- he should hang his head in shame!!!
		
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Sorry rosiefronfelen but if he said what? He said brutalised ie turned into brutes and I added what I thought he may mean. Tbh to suggest him writing such a thing is wicked is something you can and perhaps should put to him via his campaign which he is fully involved in with us supporters. Having seen his response to the pro hunting leader of LC council and based on the fact that he see's hunters as the lowest of the low then you should take a stiff drink before reading Dr. Bri's reply lol


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## Scratchline (20 April 2010)

marmalade76 said:



			That is a rather bold statement! 

Why not do a poll and prove it?
		
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I dont need to and my statement stands. You do a poll asking who supports hunting on this forum and prove me wrong if you dare?!


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## Scratchline (20 April 2010)

rosiefronfelen said:



			yes, lets have a poll from the almighty ones who say they know better than the hunters.
		
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Ideal. Winner takes all. The hunters can vote if they suppport hunting. Save verbal reprisal considering the nature of some of you those against dont vote. Losers leave the forum ( you can shack up with your hounds), and close the stable door on your way out! x


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## Scratchline (20 April 2010)

Luci07 said:



			Its not bold, its extremely insulting. While discussions can get out of hand on this forum, with regards to the subject of hunting, there is normally a fairly well balanced argument for and against - without insulting either side. Do not presume to speak on my behalf or attempt to bully me with your poorly researched arguments. 

Oh BTW - born, brought up and still living in ..... the countryside..
		
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"Insulted", and "bullied"?? lol Born, brought up, still living in the countryside and snivveling all over it by the sound of it. Pull yourself together its only a forum!!!


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## Scratchline (20 April 2010)

CaveCanem said:



			Dammit, no one liked my joke 

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It wasnt very funny lol


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## Amymay (20 April 2010)

Scratchline said:



			Sorry rosiefronfelen but if he said what? He said brutalised ie turned into brutes and I added what I thought he may mean. Tbh to suggest him writing such a thing is wicked is something you can and perhaps should put to him via his campaign which he is fully involved in with us supporters. Having seen his response to the pro hunting leader of LC council and based on the fact that he see's hunters as the lowest of the low then you should take a stiff drink before reading Dr. Bri's reply lol
		
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I don't quite understand what you think Rosiefronfelen is being 'wicked' about. Suggesting that _May_ thinks young hounds are 'brutalised' in to becoming hunters (as is your interpretation of his statement), or explaining to you rather well the instinct of the young hound.

You clearly feel strongly about this subject - which is huge credit to you.  But you (and people like _Dr_ May) do need to get their facts straight in order to argue their point successfully.


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## Scratchline (20 April 2010)

amymay said:



			I don't quite understand what you think Rosiefronfelen is being 'wicked' about. Suggesting that _May_ thinks young hounds are 'brutalised' in to becoming hunters (as is your interpretation of his statement), or explaining to you rather well the instinct of the young hound.

You clearly feel strongly about this subject - which is huge credit to you.  But you (and people like _Dr_ May) do need to get their facts straight in order to argue their point successfully.
		
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No, no. I didnt suggest rosie was being wicked please read back.


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## Scratchline (20 April 2010)

p.s amymay I sort of see what you mean with my post but if you read rosies post it makes sense, kind of lol


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## Amymay (20 April 2010)

Scratchline said:



			p.s amymay I sort of see what you mean with my post but if you read rosies post it makes sense, kind of lol
		
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Ah, got it - re-read again.  Apols.


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## rosie fronfelen (20 April 2010)

Scratchline, please keep civil over these threads, we all have differing opinions on this very controversial subject,( it does make me mad but i'm trying to keep my cool!)so please, no more comments on shacking up with our hounds etc. not very helpful or constructive. i have read Mays retorts, very unimpressive i must say, and the councillor concerned spoke well and to the point, Mays answer was very lowering and i imagine the councillor would have been pretty horrified at receiving such a crass reply. i will be writing to May, no worries on that, believe you me.


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## Luci07 (20 April 2010)

Scratchline said:



			"Insulted", and "bullied"?? lol Born, brought up, still living in the countryside and snivveling all over it by the sound of it. Pull yourself together its only a forum!!!
		
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You are not funny. You are the revolting breed that believes you can be rude, ill informed and that everyone else has to put up with you. You say its funny and we can say nothing? 
You make idiotic comments and then can get huffy and offensive when corrected or questioned. Everyone has the right to their own opinion but thinking yours carries more weight if you shout more loudly/are nastier is ridicolous.


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## zsmm4 (20 April 2010)

Badgers are disease -ridden vermin. They need culling to protect human health. End of story.


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## CorvusCorax (20 April 2010)

Scratchline said:



			It wasnt very funny lol
		
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Grrr, I've been found out......


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## Scratchline (20 April 2010)

luci07 said:



			you are not funny. You are the revolting breed that believes you can be rude, ill informed and that everyone else has to put up with you. You say its funny and we can say nothing? 
You make idiotic comments and then can get huffy and offensive when corrected or questioned. Everyone has the right to their own opinion but thinking yours carries more weight if you shout more loudly/are nastier is ridicolous.
		
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zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz!!


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## Scratchline (20 April 2010)

zsmm4 said:



			Badgers are disease -ridden vermin. They need culling to protect human health. End of story.
		
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Rubbish. vaccinate them!


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## Scratchline (20 April 2010)

CaveCanem said:



			Grrr, I've been found out......
		
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No it was okay lol Sadly 99% of this forum just havent got a sense of humour.


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## Scratchline (20 April 2010)

amymay said:



			Ah, got it - re-read again.  Apols.
		
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None necessary.


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## jrp204 (20 April 2010)

You can only vaccinate uninfected animals of whatever species, so the answer is??


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## Crazy Friesian (20 April 2010)

All very well and good but what about constructive suggestions.
With regard to the fox control debate, this is a problem caused by humans. We have created the imbalance within nature that drives foxes into the cities because we have decreased their natural habitats. This causes a problem by cats being killed by foxes, bins being ripped apart, &#8220;domesticated&#8221; dogs being attacked etc, etc. 
In the country foxes gravitate to &#8220;easy prey&#8221; (newborn lambs, chickens etc) It is in their nature. What they would then do (in the case of the chickens) is remove the carcasses and store what they could for future. But what we see is the total decimation of a coop. 
Ask yourself this: Who is the foxes and dogs closest relation... the Wolf... Think about it, though not for too long mind as it really is a no brainer. They all have the natural instinct to hunt given the right stimulus. 
With regard to Badgers:  They too are a threat to farmers and their &#8220;job&#8221;. Ask yourself how you would feel if someone threatened your job and livelihood. They have mouths to feed too. Farming is not a job for the feint hearted. Many of us wouldn&#8217;t even know where to start. What is the knock on effect of this? (less affordable food for the British public)But yet many are the first to complain when meat prices go up. Only uninfected Badgers can be vaccinated, what would you have done with the rest?
How do you CONSTRUCTIVELY suggest we address these problems? Bearing in mind that this is only the tip of the iceberg. As with many of these debates it is worth bearing in mind the &#8220;butterfly effect&#8221;...
Just for reference (for the avoidance of name calling etc!) , I am not a bunny hugger / pro / anti hunting or whatever else you may like to level at me. This is just (IMHO) food for thought.


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## Scratchline (20 April 2010)

jrp204 said:



			You can only vaccinate uninfected animals of whatever species, so the answer is??
		
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I am with you on this jrp, the infected animals sadly need culling for this to work. My blunt answer about vaccination was to the blunt post about them being disease riddled vermin.


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## ester (20 April 2010)

edt cos prob against confidentiality


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## somethingorother (21 April 2010)

I normally love a good hunting debate, have been in several for days.

It is therefore surprising that HHO is one of the worst places for an -informed- debate. 

I wish i had posted the link to this first, because Scratchline, you are making things worse. Stop being so downright rude and nasty. Even if people are to you. Be better than that and use information in a polite and concise way rathert than muddling it with insults. 

And Mr May was indeed similarly rude to the politician... which is a shame, because antis get a bad enough press as it is.


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## Scratchline (21 April 2010)

somethingorother said:



			I normally love a good hunting debate, have been in several for days.

It is therefore surprising that HHO is one of the worst places for an -informed- debate. 

I wish i had posted the link to this first, because Scratchline, you are making things worse. Stop being so downright rude and nasty. Even if people are to you. Be better than that and use information in a polite and concise way rathert than muddling it with insults. 

And Mr May was indeed similarly rude to the politician... which is a shame, because antis get a bad enough press as it is.
		
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I feel like a little child getting told off lol lol Lets get some things straight should we. If somebody is rude or nasty to me I will return the favour. And how anything can be made worse than a group of riders wanting to go around our countryside ripping foxes apart I will never know.
As for Dr. May he wrote a wondferful reply IMO to a poncy idiot who dared to rip into him. With nearly 14,000 supporters joining his cause in days why dont you pop over to the SAVE ME site and give him a piece of your mind but trust me, I am being polite to you.
Now if you wish to debate hunting in a fluffy way why dont you start a thread and leave me be ta very much!


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## somethingorother (21 April 2010)

See, there you go again being rude. You just can't help yourself, it's like you have no control over your fingers. 

I have joined the save me site, before i saw this. And i support Mr May. But i think that that particular reply was more suited to a 'rockstar' on stage than an ambassador for a cause such as this. I just hate to see the cause being marred by aggressive people such as yourself. I do not wish to debate hunting in a fluffy way, i wish to discuss it in a polite way minus the personal insults.

Did you get my PM? It would really be good for that group if you followed the link i sent you. In case you didn't get it from my pm, or didnt check out the group, i am a strong anti and it is a very anti group. They would be very happy to hear your opinions and arguments to use themselves. Unless you only like the argument of things on here? There will unlikely be anyone to argue with you there.


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## Scratchline (22 April 2010)

Hi, only checked my messages this morningbut have replied. In answer to your question no I have no control over my fingers sometimes, they are very naughty.

As I am here, I am a committed anti and am sick of the hunters LAME EXCUSES. Brian May replied to these daft excuses and with his kind permission I repost it here for you to read. I shall not disucc iot further save it leading to arguements with those who are lovers of fox hunting.

The Lame Claims File
The fox-lovers handbook of answers to lame claims  as to why its acceptable to torture foxes to death.
Lame Claim Answer 
1. Its a BAD law... Baa-aad! Unenforceable... confusing... we dont understand it. Read it more carefully! Improve it, tighten it up, monitor violations more rigorously, enforce it more diligently. If the law against child molestation was found to be unenforceable, what would we do? Repeal the law? I dont think so.  
2. It took up too much parliamentary time. No it didnt. This law was introduced by proper parliamentary process  in accordance with the will of the majority of the British public, who consider hunting with dogs barbaric and unacceptable, and see this law as a flagship move towards better treatment of ALL animals wild animals, farm animals, and laboratory animals. The fact that Tim Bonner of the Countryside Alliance boasts that the Tories could smash this law in a day is proof that these people care nothing for the will of the people. God help us all if they seize power. 
3. Foxes are vermin; if we didnt hunt them, wed be overrun with them. So... how come the Hunts construct artificial earths to encourage the breeding of foxes, and, when foxes become scarce in a particular area, the hunts re-introduce them? Hunt supporters have elsewhere actually claimed that if there were no foxhunting, foxes would have been extinct by now. Surely there must be more humane ways to save an endangered species?

By the way... DEFRA defines which animals are classed as vermin in the UK. The fox is not among them. Foxes are NOT vermin. This is in fact a very old argument  only now heard from hunting advocates who have not kept up. Its so obviously a lie, that it has been replaced in the mouths of most Countryside Alliance members with this next (pretty much opposite) argument. 
4. We dont persecute foxes - we love them... we conserve them... we preserve a balance - we even enoble them by hunting them - and we strengthen the breed by picking off the weakest. Well, make up your minds - just now, they were vermin - pests - to be controlled. Now suddenly they are precious - and I bet they enjoy being enobled by being pursued and dismembered alive by dogs. Yes, folks, if there were no foxes, the foxhunters would have no fun. So they make sure there are enough to hunt  and the numbers go down in a particular area, they import them. (Oh, and by the way, if being hunted is good for the species... perhaps wed better instigate the hunting of humans... itll improve the strength of our species too... goody!) If we really want to get technical, my ecology advisor adds, This whole savannah theory of maintaining balance by removing predators only applies when those species have coevolved together and are infact in a delicate balance. We did not co-evolve predating foxes in this manner, so this argument is ecologically unsound. 
5. Its traditional - traditions are good - they are our birth-right. Oh, really? So the traditions of wife beating, bear baiting, slave whipping, burning of supposed witches, birching of schoolchildren (and so many more atrocities)... were all traditions that ought to have been preserved... right?! Just because something has been done for years does not make it right. If traditions were always upheld, women would still not have a vote. Traditions my ass. 
6. Foxes are vicious and cruel - havent you seen what they do to a chicken coop if they get in? They kill all the birds for pleasure. Not true - its another bit of outdated propaganda. If a hungry animal suddenly finds food, it will eat it... just like we do... but the foxes kill extra chickens with the purpose of burying them for future use, when the pickings are slim. Left to themselves they will come back and bury those chickens... but they are not completely stupid; if there is a farmer with a gun waiting to shoot him, Mr. Fox is not going to come back and collect the food supplies. Killing for pleasure? Make no mistake... there is only one animal that does this... MAN. 
7. Foxes are dirty. Nope - theyre not... our rescued foxes spend at least as much time grooming themselves as the average domestic cat; in fact they are very cat-like in many ways... this is something I never realised until I spent time with these delightful animals. They dont cover up their poo, but neither do any of our domestic dogs. Its not the end of the world, and certainly not a good enough reason to persecute them.


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## Scratchline (22 April 2010)

8. Its NATURAL for men to hunt foxes, just like Lions hunt antelope. Well, the flaw in this argument is blindingly obvious. Lions kill for food... but humans do not eat foxes. There is only one reason to hunt down and murder a fox... for fun... for sport. Its not in any way justifiable. Its barbaric, and its cruel - its also clearly a crime, as defined by the 1909 Cruelty to Animals act. By the way, have we not noticed that it is NOT the hunters who manage to pull off this great sporting achievement - its the hounds? 
9. Ah well, yes - it's natural for DOGS to kill foxes. Rubbish. It is in no way natural. Weve already published pictures of our local dogs playing with the rescued foxes... along with deer and various birds. The fox is a naturally, delightfully gentle creature  timid, and built for running. The average dog, when decently looked after, is also playful, gentle and peaceful. The only way to make dogs vicious - ready to tear apart Foxes, Stags, Hares, or even Humans - is to brutalise them - half-starve them - deprive them of affection, and house them in such wretched conditions that they go berserk when allowed out to run. The Hunts test the hound puppies on fox cubs. Its the charming practice of cubbing, wherein, once the parent fox has been slaughtered, the tiny fox-cubs are poked out or dug out from their homes, and forced into the path of the young hounds - already toughened up and ready to mutilate. The young hounds eat the fox pups alive. If the young dogs are not vicious enough, the Huntsmen shoot them - another nice piece of natural selection designed to make the pack not only healthy but also as vicious as possible. Even leaving aside this abhorrent cruelty to foxes, in a decent society it ought to be illegal to raise a dog for the sole purpose of killing. (In fact, as noted in LC 11, currently it IS illegal to breed dogs for dog-fighting... we logically we need to bring things into line... so that what is law for the yobs is law for the toffs too.

Its interesting that perhaps the foxhunting community of people have been in a sense brutalised, too  brought up in a way that has desensitised them to the cruelty around them. 
10. By hunting we eliminate the weakest animals, so we strengthen the species. The foxes are either killed, or get away if they are strong. Just like in Africa. Good try. But this is just another sly (yes, its the humans who are sly  not the dear old foxes) attempt to bend the truth. In fact, the appallingly cruel methods used in the Hunt ensure that the chances survival of a fox in no way depend on its natural strength. Foxes are routinely imported, kept in bags so they are weakened and disoriented when they are let out in front of a pack of brutalised hounds. And the truth is that the occasional fox who actually does manage to elude the dogs is usually accounted for, by digging out and being shot anyway. No-one should be allowed to treat animals this way. 
11. Its all about class! The middle and working classes are jealous of the toffs, and want to deprive them of their rights - among them, the right to treat any animal on their land any way they see fit. Nonsense. It is nothing to do with class. Decent people are equally outraged if a young thug in Yorkshire goes out with his pit-bull terrier and encourages it to savage wild animals, or if a rich land-owner in Berkshire goes out with HIS brutalised dogs and commits an atrocity on a fox, or rabbit, or otter. None of us care a jot about class. We care about animals. Brutal behaviour is brutal behaviour. There is no excuse.  
12. You people who live in towns dont understand the ways of the countryside. Leave us alone and mind your own business! This is a good one... so glib... so ALMOST convincing. The Countryside Alliance is very keen to tell the townie politicians how to run the whole of Britain - and has managed to make farming the most heavily subsidised industry in the land. Yet these same people deny the towns people the right to protect animals in the countryside... as if country people OWNED our wildlife. Imagine land-owners insisting that, if child-abuse happened on their land, nobody in town had the right to try to stop it. Wed all say... these children might be on your land, but they still have rights - we reserve the right to monitor your behaviour and stop the cruelty where we find it. Yet these Countryside Alliance stalwarts would have us accept that wild animals straying on to their land legitimately become subject to their every whim. Its a vile conceit.  
13. You are taking away our human right to socialise in our traditional way. Not at all. We absolutely defend your right to meet up on a crisp country morning, dressed up in pinks, and scamper about on your horses. What we dispute is your right to trample everything in your path, endangering peoples property, children, pets and livestock. And we dispute your right to kill animals for your pleasure, in a hideously cruel manner.

Drag hunting, with the hounds following a scent other than fox, gives you all the socialising you need, and all the exercise; and it has the huge advantage that the path of the hunt can be pre-planned, so that your neighbours are not threatened by invasion. If you refuse to accept this as a decent alternative, it can only be that you need the thrill of killing, and that you actually crave the feeling of wanton disregard for anyone around you... that feeling of superiority, perhaps  Lords of the Manor and all that? Its time to come into the 21st century. 
14. If we are prevented from killing foxes using dogs, farmers have to control these pests by shooting them. Farmers are poor marksmen, so many foxes die a lingering death from gunshot wounds - which is inhumane. Inhumane? Excuse me?!!! Given the choice of being pursued until your muscles are paralysed and then ripped apart by hounds; or shot with a bullet, with the chance of an instant death, which would you choose? I asked this question to the man who would be the new head of DEFRA (the Department of the Environment and Farming and Rural Affairs) if the Tories were elected in May. He at least had the decency to say he wasnt entirely sure. But many of the Countryside Alliance propagandists continue to insist that being killed by hounds is a desirable option. Sorry, but... simply not believable. We always come back to the same conclusion... the only reason to be indulging in this filthy blood sport is that you enjoy causing unnecessary pain to animals.  
Own up, guys. You are cornered  and about to be run to Earth!


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## Luci07 (22 April 2010)

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz


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## Scratchline (22 April 2010)

Luci07 said:



			zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
		
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Best post you have made on this forum so far. Thanks for copying my style lol


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## marmalade76 (22 April 2010)

Scratchline said:



			I dont need to and my statement stands. You do a poll asking who supports hunting on this forum and prove me wrong if you dare?!
		
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I have seen no proof to support your statement and I have not taken it upon myself to speak for the "vast majority" of forum members. Prove yor claim, don't expect me to do your dirty work for you!

P.S., I don't know how to set up a poll anyway.


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## Katikins (22 April 2010)

@Scatchline

There are 2 polls going now... I think the numbers are starting to speak volumes.  So turns out you're not actually speaking for the 'vast majority' are you!


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## zefragile (22 April 2010)

Katikins said:



			@Scatchline

There are 2 polls going now... I think the numbers are starting to speak volumes.  So turns out you're not actually speaking for the 'vast majority' are you!
		
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Just a quick point- the vast majority of members probably haven't even seen these polls as they're not exactly in the busiest sections of the forum so I don't think you can prove anything either way from them.


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## Scratchline (22 April 2010)

Katikins said:



			@Scatchline

There are 2 polls going now... I think the numbers are starting to speak volumes.  So turns out you're not actually speaking for the 'vast majority' are you!
		
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As nobody knows what they are actually voting for as you havent in anyway made it clear I think you are at the moment wasting your time. How about your forty voters so far only support now legal hunting following the ban therefore are anti hunting with packs of hounds?

Also, I never claimed to speak for the majority on this forum ( !!!!!),so have the good grace to be honest in your furure posts. I merely said that I believe the majority of members are anti hunt.


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## Scratchline (22 April 2010)

zefragile said:



			Just a quick point- the vast majority of members probably haven't even seen these polls as they're not exactly in the busiest sections of the forum so I don't think you can prove anything either way from them.
		
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When they do I am not sure they will know what they are voting for. Bear hunting perhaps lol


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## PapaFrita (23 April 2010)

Scratchline said:



			As a doggy man who spends all his free time out and about in the countryside I have had numerous encounters, planned and unplanned with our foxy friend with different breeds of dog. And pretty much everytime day or night on coming face to face with a fox the dog doesnt know what to do but certainly doesnt attack it! Chase it all day but if the fox is in front of it the dog will not attack.
		
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My dog is a dobermann. The first and every subsequent time she saw a fox (unplanned- why would you plan an encounter between a fox and a dog except to hunt the fox? Is it in the interest of inter-species relations?) she went after it. If she'd caught it she would most certainly have done it some damage and if she'd been with her 'pack' (my other dogs) they would definitely have killed it. How do you suppose I taught her that?


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## Scratchline (23 April 2010)

PapaFrita said:



			My dog is a dobermann. The first and every subsequent time she saw a fox (unplanned- why would you plan an encounter between a fox and a dog except to hunt the fox? Is it in the interest of inter-species relations?) she went after it. If she'd caught it she would most certainly have done it some damage and if she'd been with her 'pack' (my other dogs) they would definitely have killed it. How do you suppose I taught her that?
		
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Your dobermann did not catch the fox so you cannot comment other than to guess. Unless your dog is naturally aggresive it would realise the fox is of the same family and I suggest it would not follow through with the attack.
I also suggest your pack be kept away from animals and small children because their leader, yourself, obviously has no control over their behaviour and knows what a dangerous group of mutts they are.


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## PapaFrita (23 April 2010)

Scratchline said:



			Your dobermann did not catch the fox so you cannot comment other than to guess. Unless your dog is naturally aggresive it would realise the fox is of the same family and I suggest it would not follow through with the attack.
I also suggest your pack be kept away from animals and small children because their leader, yourself, obviously has no control over their behaviour and knows what a dangerous group of mutts they are.
		
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You are quite charming. I see it is quite impossible to pass comment on this thread without being insulted (I thought you were only rude BACK to people?)  so I shall withdraw. I thought some of the points made by Dr May were very interesting but your attitude is frankly a bit **** so I can't take you seriously.
My dangerously aggressive mutts and I, their useless. Ineffectual leader, shall go terrorise a playgroup somewhere...
Have a pleasant day.


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## CorvusCorax (23 April 2010)

Erm, plenty of dogs are dog-aggressive (I have a recovering one), they will of course attack another dog, so why shouldn't a dog with a high prey drive, attack a fox.

Also, dog-aggressive dogs are not always people aggressive, quite the opposite in many cases.

Scratchline, you know a lot more about dogs than to suggest that no dog has an inbuilt instinct to chase and kill smaller, furry creatures. 

Why don't you come and hang around the dogs forum and share your knowledge rather than getting so personal in here and on hunting, your attitude to PF's post was completely out of order.

You're not such a one trick pony as to only talk about the one subject on here, surely.


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## jrp204 (23 April 2010)

Hmmm...........dogs don't have an inbuilt instinct to chase and kill, someone on here knows a little black patterdale X who has a terrific instinct! You know who you are..................


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## Scratchline (23 April 2010)

jrp204 said:



			Hmmm...........dogs don't have an inbuilt instinct to chase and kill, someone on here knows a little black patterdale X who has a terrific instinct! You know who you are..................
		
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lol lol lol Not fair jrp. The discussion is born out of the hounds none instinct to kill and how that is common in many breeds.
This is not and never was meant to be a blanket 'no dogs attack or will foxes'. It haas been taken that way in an attempt to discredit my statements IMO.


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## CorvusCorax (23 April 2010)

I'm not trying to discredit anyone Scratchline, least of all you, you weren't the one who came up with the quote about brutalised packs of dogs. You keep saying 'dogs' as opposed to 'hounds',  obviously many dogs do have that instinct, if you mean 'hounds' have no natural instinct to chase and kill small furries, I am surprised at that, but perhaps someone who has raised them and has more experience with them can comment.

I am just asking questions and drawing from my own experiences.


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## Scratchline (23 April 2010)

CaveCanem said:



			Erm, plenty of dogs are dog-aggressive (I have a recovering one), they will of course attack another dog, so why shouldn't a dog with a high prey drive, attack a fox.

Also, dog-aggressive dogs are not always people aggressive, quite the opposite in many cases.

Scratchline, you know a lot more about dogs than to suggest that no dog has an inbuilt instinct to chase and kill smaller, furry creatures. 

Why don't you come and hang around the dogs forum and share your knowledge rather than getting so personal in here and on hunting, your attitude to PF's post was completely out of order.

You're not such a one trick pony as to only talk about the one subject on here, surely.
		
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Again, as I have just posted to jrp this was not intended by me to suggest that no dogs will attack a fox. The discussion was born from discussing cub hunting and how hounds did not naturally attack foxes, they had to be goaded to do so. As we can goad dogs to attack animals, people indeed pretty much anything. That doesnt holwever make it a natural instinct as claimed by hunters. Running dogs will chase its natural, scent hounds nose to the ground etc but to kill, that isnt in hounds inbred. That was the point anyway.

As for dog aggresive dogs I used to breed pits so I really do understand what you are saying. But again, it was about hounds using the reaction of many other breeds to a fox as examples. It was never a black and white discussion.

PF's post I just took the post and used it. A bit unfair, perhaps but I post like that. Mostly it is tongue in cheek but one thing that is very obvious on this forum is most are determined to take offence at the drop of the hat. For heavens sake its a public forum. I dont take any of the posts made to me to heart. Giles called me a dick yesterday but do I care? No, of course not. Maybe I need to change my style, we shall see but I would never and do never chase people around the forum bullying them. I am just not a nasty person I can assure you.

I will see you over on the doggy forum. You are right, I should make more effort to diversify so thankyou for your post.


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## CorvusCorax (23 April 2010)

Good, glad to hear it!


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## Scratchline (23 April 2010)

CaveCanem said:



			I'm not trying to discredit anyone Scratchline, least of all you, you weren't the one who came up with the quote about brutalised packs of dogs. You keep saying 'dogs' as opposed to 'hounds',  obviously many dogs do have that instinct, if you mean 'hounds' have no natural instinct to chase and kill small furries, I am surprised at that, but perhaps someone who has raised them and has more experience with them can comment.

I am just asking questions and drawing from my own experiences.
		
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No I accept you are not trying to discredit me, I enjoy your posts. This whole debate was born out of the reason hounds have to go cubbing, what it teaches them and why IMO they have to be basically forced to kill. This being the case it is not therefore a natural instinct. To chase yes, to kill no.

Interestingly hunters of old ( on bigger animals often. Used scent hounds, then sight hounds and then sent in the killer hounds. There is a great painting by Ruebens, I think it is called boar hunt or something similar.
Looking at it I would put money on the killer hounds being very, very much the same dog with the same gameness as the modern day pit bull.

Right I am waffling lol I may be back online later CC but for now, best wishes Scratchline


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## Spudlet (23 April 2010)

But then again any dog will 'rag' a toy - what is this but a behaviour that a wild dog would use to kill small prey? You don't need to teach them to do that (actually I've spent quite a lot of time teaching Henry NOT to do that).

Many people with pet hounds of various breeds cannot let them off the lead in public as their instincts overrule them and they head for the hills. I know several people with hound breeds - not working bred dogs - whp are in this position. Also, many greyhounds will kill cats or even small dogs if they have the chance which is why many wear muzzles. Several people have posted about this tendency in their own dogs in the past.

So surely they are behaving on natural instinct?


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