# Countryfile: abandoned horses etc



## MiJodsR2BlinkinTite (27 April 2014)

OK so know this has been done before, but watched Countryfile earlier this evening, where there was a feature on abandoned horses, and the presented reminded views of Princess Anne's comments (she is President of WHW which is something I didn't know).......... and her views were/are that if horses were included into the food chain, i.e. slaughtered for food; there might be an improvement of the situation as regards unwanted & abandoned horses in the UK - as then horses would be deemed "worth" something, i.e. as a food source rather than worthless.

The viewer was then shown an interview with the proprietor of Potters Abattoir in Somerset.......... all very nice, clean, and clinical. No harsh realities of blood & gore everywhere (sorry, being cynical here), who sends horse carcasses to the continent on a regular basis. Then the scene switched to a town where there were some chefs cooking up horsemeat, and asking members of the public to sample same, and various opinions on the topic were expressed. 

Then the Humane Society expressed a contrary view, i.e. concern that as horses were "flight animals" it wasn't the same as slaughtering say cows/sheep etc., as horses are naturally prone to get far more stressed than a bovine animal simply due to their intrinsic make-up.

IMO it was a very well thought-out piece of journalism, giving good balance to either side of the debate.

I guess my main concern would be if horses WERE "officially" as it were, put into the food chain in the UK, is that the n'er do wells of society would then see horses as an immediate source of cash, i.e. steal from the fields, apply for a new passport, and then take the poor unfortunate animal  to an abattoir and get easy money for the meat-price. Unthinkable, but it would be every horse owner's worst nightmare.

What did other people think?


----------



## L&M (27 April 2014)

I totally understand the Humane Society's pov and am against horse transportation abroad for slaughter. However if there was a horse meat market in this country, surely this problem would be resolved as the need for a long and stressful journey would be eliminated.

I am with Princess Anne on this - to make horses a more valuable commodity in my mind can only help improve the welfare and totally support the concept of eating horsemeat.


----------



## Echo Bravo (27 April 2014)

Pity they hadn't the guts to say the abandoned horses were mostly traveller bred and no I can't see putting horse meat on the British plate will make them more valuable, just get more being bred for the table.


----------



## pines of rome (27 April 2014)

I would also worry that this would encourage more horse thefts and some horses might not be given medication when they need it, so that they can go for meat!
I am also not convinced that they would be killed humanely and I would never eat horse as I would not eat dog or cat either! Will they suggest that next, with so many unwanted pets in this country!!!


----------



## jrp204 (27 April 2014)

Rearing horses for meat would then put them under better welfare laws and be regulated by Animal health who have way more power than RSPCA etc. animals would be reared more along 'farm animal' lines so would be killed younger and bred to produce a more commercial carcass. I don't think it would increase horse theft, you would still need a passport for slaughter just as you would with cattle, without one the animal wouldn't go into the food chain reducing its value. 
Live animal exports should not take place, we should support our abattoirs ideally increasing their numbers so animals of all kinds don't have to be transported so far.


----------



## Rollin (27 April 2014)

There was an article published on Southern CB website a few years ago explaining why slaughter is more traumatic for horses than other animals.  The author said that horses will fight and fight to survive.

If you ride you will know how a horse tunes into your own emotions and feelings.

I for one won't ever approve of horses going to slaughter houses.


----------



## flojo (27 April 2014)

It was a very reasoned argument on both sides and I don't think that there is an easy answer to the problem.
I was concerned by the thought that some horses may be denied medical attention  due to the fact that many drugs would rule the animals out of the food chain.


----------



## jrp204 (27 April 2014)

flojo said:



			It was a very reasoned argument on both sides and I don't think that there is an easy answer to the problem.
I was concerned by the thought that some horses may be denied medical attention  due to the fact that many drugs would rule the animals out of the food chain.
		
Click to expand...

An animal reared for meat would be treated differently, we can use painkillers in our sheep that doesn't stop them going into the food chain, maybe there is something else that horses can be given? You would be dealing with an animal that would likely be reared in a group with very little handling and would be slaughtered probably before it is 2 so hopefully would be less likely to require painkillers. As with other drugs or wormers with a meat withhold period any animal that was killed within the withhold the meat would be condemned or not go for human consumption.


----------



## Echo Bravo (27 April 2014)

But didn't the man from Potters say that the older horse produces the better meat.


----------



## hackneylass2 (28 April 2014)

I agree with the points raised by Echo, Pines and Rollin.

My views are that the individuals who are turning out 'coloured cob' types will just breed more and more, and we all know that these unfortunates don't get the best care.

The passport system is no safeguard for horses, as has already been proved. I believe an abbattor 'facilitated' passports in some way not too long ago.  How many posters on here have sent a horse to 'the abbattoir that is not Potters' and thought all was good...and are now perhaps cringing at the end their horse probably suffered? Maybe out of sight out of mind? 

Horses do not mature and gain weight as quickly as beef cattle, because they have not been bred as meat producing animals.....and horsemeat is less valuable than beef, so where is the business sense in rearing them?  Anyone who thinks that if horses were reared for meat here on a commercial scale  they would enjoy better welfare is, IMO residing in cloud cuckoo land. There would just be more of the same. Low end breeders making a quick buck with no or little overheads and even less morals.

Potters work on a small scale, scale that up and see how humane things become... perhaps the people for horsemeat production might do well to familiarise theirselves with the work of Temple Grandin.  As well as flight response, which I  guess is present within all animals to a greater or lesser extent, the horse has one thing physiologically that puts it at a greater risk - its long neck.  Think about it.

That said, I also think where do we go next? Cats, dogs...two more companion animals that serve us well.  I think we can manage without another meat as we do have a decent range of them to choose from already.  How many people would send their cat or dog away to be shot if there were a little money in it? 

Of course, its one way to turn a 600 quid loss into perhaps a 200 quid gain when your old stager has to go. On a purely emotional basis, I do think that historically, we in Britain held the horse in much higher  regard than that of our Continental cousins, I feel that if the horse is relegated as just another food animal, we will lose some of our historic, and yes, perhaps romantic, connections with the horse.


----------



## dogatemysalad (28 April 2014)

Reducing the number of horses bred for the racing industry might help reduce the number of surplus animals.

Using horses for horsemeat will not improve welfare. Withholding medication is inhumane. Horses are flight animals and refusing treatment for injury or illness is unacceptable.

They are difficult to slaughter because of their sensitivity and flight response. 

My membership of the WHW is nearly due for renewal. Think I'll save my money and cancel it, as they've lost the plot.


----------



## hackneylass2 (28 April 2014)

WHW is gone for me too.  
As for Princess Anne... well I'm sure she quite happily eats horsemeat regularly and sends her discarded horses off to the abbattoir.  
Wonder why Doublet was buried? She missed out on a few quid there didn't she!


----------



## Queenbee (28 April 2014)

I thought it was a very well presented piece, yes if we were to go down that route there would be hurdles to overcome and it wouldn't solve the current welfare issue in the short term but as a long term plan, as much as i love horses, I have to say in this current situation the equine world finds itself in I wouldn't be against it happening, I would actively support it.  We simply can not keep going as we are, and this would bring some changes that may well benefit in the long run.  I think hackneylass that your statement is a bit flippant, that's not to say I don't respect your views, but advocating such a movement does not mean you have to lead by example and send your horse off for slaughter,  ebony was PTS, then burried on my OH's farm (now my ex OH but I know where she is) Ben will be put to sleep at home with those who love him around him when the time comes, but then I would never ever starve, neglect or badly treat any of my animals, I would always scrape together the money to give them the dignified end that they deserve.  Others simply don't do this, they do neglect, they do sell on problems or give them away, or even turn them loose in pain and malnourished... For those people (as much as they should be the ones being shot) there needs to be another option, when faced with a bill for PTS of course they don't give a toss about the animal, they just move it on or leave it to waste away, anything rather than spending money on it, however if they could make money on it, then maybe, just maybe these horses would receive a different fate.  No, it's not ideal, but tell me what you truly think is worse, long term suffering and pain - being neglected, starved, and dumped or a trip to the bullet man?  To me it is a simple equation.  It's not something any of us ever wanted to consider, but in all honesty if you want someone to be angry at, be angry at the entire equine community, for not respecting their animals better to stop this awful crisis happening in the first place.


----------



## Dry Rot (28 April 2014)

Are horses more difficult to slaughter than, say, red deer which are farmed commercially on a growing scale these days? 

I don't like the thought of it, but something has to be done.


----------



## eahotson (28 April 2014)

Queenbee said:



			I thought it was a very well presented piece, yes if we were to go down that route there would be hurdles to overcome and it wouldn't solve the current welfare issue in the short term but as a long term plan, as much as i love horses, I have to say in this current situation the equine world finds itself in I wouldn't be against it happening, I would actively support it.  We simply can not keep going as we are, and this would bring some changes that may well benefit in the long run.  I think hackneylass that your statement is a bit flippant, that's not to say I don't respect your views, but advocating such a movement does not mean you have to lead by example and send your horse off for slaughter,  ebony was PTS, then burried on my OH's farm (now my ex OH but I know where she is) Ben will be put to sleep at home with those who love him around him when the time comes, but then I would never ever starve, neglect or badly treat any of my animals, I would always scrape together the money to give them the dignified end that they deserve.  Others simply don't do this, they do neglect, they do sell on problems or give them away, or even turn them loose in pain and malnourished... For those people (as much as they should be the ones being shot) there needs to be another option, when faced with a bill for PTS of course they don't give a toss about the animal, they just move it on or leave it to waste away, anything rather than spending money on it, however if they could make money on it, then maybe, just maybe these horses would receive a different fate.  No, it's not ideal, but tell me what you truly think is worse, long term suffering and pain - being neglected, starved, and dumped or a trip to the bullet man?  To me it is a simple equation.  It's not something any of us ever wanted to consider, but in all honesty if you want someone to be angry at, be angry at the entire equine community, for not respecting their animals better to stop this awful crisis happening in the first place.
		
Click to expand...

That.In a perfect world it wouldn't happen.It's not a perfect world sadly.


----------



## popsdosh (28 April 2014)

dogatemysalad said:



			Reducing the number of horses bred for the racing industry might help reduce the number of surplus animals.

Using horses for horsemeat will not improve welfare. Withholding medication is inhumane. Horses are flight animals and refusing treatment for injury or illness is unacceptable.

They are difficult to slaughter because of their sensitivity and flight response. 

My membership of the WHW is nearly due for renewal. Think I'll save my money and cancel it, as they've lost the plot.
		
Click to expand...

Let me tackle each of your objections in order .
Firstly how is the racing industry responsible for this oversupply of horses reducing the numbers bred will merely reduce the racing population so the industry as a whole contracts inwards as the horses that cannot/will not race will still be a fixed percentage. At least the racing industry has finally got off its backside to do something about the ones not good enough .Also if I am totally blunt several of those horses are better off dead than ending up with some of the cretins who buy them at the bottom end and have no idea how to keep them!

Using horses for meat will improve horse welfare as they will come under different legislation .I think you all think that if they go into the food chain there will suddenly be a breeding explosion. The animal will be worth little more as the demand is not there so why would people breed to this end. However the big benefit will come in that owners will be offered an economical end for their animal so maybe encouraging them to actually do the right thing for them. All this clap trap about not being able to use drugs is scaremongering as my cattle are treated with whatever they need including anti inflamatories and still go into the food chain. I repeat again under this one this approach will stop some of the neglect that results from owners who see the cost of disposal being a large hurdle to a decent and timely end for their horses!!

Horses are no more difficult to slaughter humanely than any other species the facilities just need to be designed properly to accommodate them.

To put my blunt hat on there is far more cruelty to horses carried out in the UK by bunny huggers and incompetents who will not see the responsibility of giving their horses a decent end than true horse lovers.


----------



## planete (28 April 2014)

A huge 'like' for popdosh's post.


----------



## MotherOfChickens (28 April 2014)

popsdosh said:



			All this clap trap about not being able to use drugs is scaremongering as my cattle are treated with whatever they need including anti inflamatories and still go into the food chain. I repeat again under this one this approach will stop some of the neglect that results from owners who see the cost of disposal being a large hurdle to a decent and timely end for their horses!!

Horses are no more difficult to slaughter humanely than any other species the facilities just need to be designed properly to accommodate them.

To put my blunt hat on there is far more cruelty to horses carried out in the UK by bunny huggers and incompetents who will not see the responsibility of giving their horses a decent end than true horse lovers.
		
Click to expand...


great post.


----------



## suestowford (28 April 2014)

MiJodsR2BlinkinTite said:



			I guess my main concern would be if horses WERE "officially" as it were, put into the food chain in the UK, is that the n'er do wells of society would then see horses as an immediate source of cash, i.e. steal from the fields, apply for a new passport, and then take the poor unfortunate animal  to an abattoir and get easy money for the meat-price. Unthinkable, but it would be every horse owner's worst nightmare.
		
Click to expand...

This worries me too, particularly when you look at the poaching of red deer which is becoming very common on Exmoor.


----------



## fatpiggy (28 April 2014)

hackneylass2 said:



			WHW is gone for me too.  
As for Princess Anne... well I'm sure she quite happily eats horsemeat regularly and sends her discarded horses off to the abbattoir.  
Wonder why Doublet was buried? She missed out on a few quid there didn't she!
		
Click to expand...

Why make personal comments about someone you don't know at all?  What good does that do?  SHe is completely entitled to her opinion, and she is also entirely within her rights to use an abbatoir too.  If you can't  have a civilized discussion without throwing insults about, don't bother to start.


----------



## MotherOfChickens (28 April 2014)

Princess Ann was just opening up the debate, which needed doing. Even if it isn't feasible at least its been considered and discussed. There are horses being deliberately drowned ffs, let alone all those poor old/lame souls who are being rehomed because their owners won't step up-all avenues must be explored.


----------



## Rollin (28 April 2014)

Dry Rot said:



			Are horses more difficult to slaughter than, say, red deer which are farmed commercially on a growing scale these days? 

I don't like the thought of it, but something has to be done.
		
Click to expand...

Hello,  In the dim and distant past, I seem to remember a documentary which showed very special slaughter of deer.  Use of marksmen and a spiral holding shute which reduced stress.


----------



## rascal (28 April 2014)

I agree something needs to be done about unwanted horses, but I also think putting them on uk plates would lead to more stolen horses. Ours are freeze marked and  most are chipped, but for some slaughterhouses that wouldn't protect my horses.


----------



## PolarSkye (28 April 2014)

popsdosh said:



			To put my blunt hat on there is far more cruelty to horses carried out in the UK by bunny huggers and incompetents who will not see the responsibility of giving their horses a decent end than true horse lovers.
		
Click to expand...

At the risk of being unpopular - I agree with this wholeheartedly.

P


----------



## debserofe (28 April 2014)

pines of rome said:



			I would also worry that this would encourage more horse thefts and some horses might not be given medication when they need it, so that they can go for meat!
I am also not convinced that they would be killed humanely and I would never eat horse as I would not eat dog or cat either! Will they suggest that next, with so many unwanted pets in this country!!!
		
Click to expand...

If horse meat was to be sold and eaten here then there would be stricter adherence to the rules and checking of passports so it may actually prevent horses being stolen and sent to abbatoirs in countries where, in some cases, the rules around transportation and slaughter of animals is not as strict.


----------



## Cortez (28 April 2014)

popsdosh said:



			Let me tackle each of your objections in order .
Firstly how is the racing industry responsible for this oversupply of horses reducing the numbers bred will merely reduce the racing population so the industry as a whole contracts inwards as the horses that cannot/will not race will still be a fixed percentage. At least the racing industry has finally got off its backside to do something about the ones not good enough .Also if I am totally blunt several of those horses are better off dead than ending up with some of the cretins who buy them at the bottom end and have no idea how to keep them!

Using horses for meat will improve horse welfare as they will come under different legislation .I think you all think that if they go into the food chain there will suddenly be a breeding explosion. The animal will be worth little more as the demand is not there so why would people breed to this end. However the big benefit will come in that owners will be offered an economical end for their animal so maybe encouraging them to actually do the right thing for them. All this clap trap about not being able to use drugs is scaremongering as my cattle are treated with whatever they need including anti inflamatories and still go into the food chain. I repeat again under this one this approach will stop some of the neglect that results from owners who see the cost of disposal being a large hurdle to a decent and timely end for their horses!!

Horses are no more difficult to slaughter humanely than any other species the facilities just need to be designed properly to accommodate them.

To put my blunt hat on there is far more cruelty to horses carried out in the UK by bunny huggers and incompetents who will not see the responsibility of giving their horses a decent end than true horse lovers.
		
Click to expand...

This is the most sense I have ever seen/heard on this topic on here.


----------



## Cortez (28 April 2014)

rascal said:



			I agree something needs to be done about unwanted horses, but I also think putting them on uk plates would lead to more stolen horses. Ours are freeze marked and  most are chipped, but for some slaughterhouses that wouldn't protect my horses.
		
Click to expand...

The only way to put horses on UK plates is if people want to buy the meat in the first place, which I predict will not happen due to cultural preferences. Therefore the demand will not increase, therefore the stealing of horses will be no more of a problem than it is now. This argument is spurious; the market is simply not there.


----------



## splashgirl45 (28 April 2014)

agree with you cortez, a very sensible post....as deer are also very sensitive and they have come up with a way to reduce stress,   we need someone to design something similar for horses, I do remember seeing something about the deer (may have been countryfile) and that sort of thing would be particularly good for the unhandled animals ...something needs to be done about all of the poor neglected horses and ponies ....


----------



## Wundahorse (28 April 2014)

A thought provoking piece of journalism,but agree more needs to be done to tackle to root cause of equine welfare,and this means targeting the very people who are creating much of the problem ; Travellers. Where we are,there are many very poorly bred coloured's that look as if they are not bred for any purpose. Somewhere,WHW or the RSPCA needs to get to grips with this increasing problem.
I can see no market for horse meat,other than a niche one.
Also agree Horses take a long time to develop muscle,and those of a much lighter build will not be that useful for the meat trade.Can't see any abattoir keeping a horse for 2/3/4 years while they grow and develop.


----------



## Dry Rot (28 April 2014)

Rollin said:



			Hello,  In the dim and distant past, I seem to remember a documentary which showed very special slaughter of deer.  Use of marksmen and a spiral holding shute which reduced stress.
		
Click to expand...

My question was rhetorical. I live in Scotland where deer farming is not that uncommon. I also know deer farmers personally. Slaughter presents no problem at all. It is done quietly and humanely and on the premises.

Now, if Potters could be encouraged to franchise&#8230;. They do seem to have the problem licked.


----------



## ribbons (28 April 2014)

Totally agree with you popsdosh.
Particularly about the cruelty suffered by some horses from their sentimental so called horse loving owners.


----------



## Houndman (28 April 2014)

Personally I would have no issue eating horse meat any more than any other form of meat, and I have eaten it abroad.  What is important to me is how humanely and naturally the meat has been reared and slaughtered.  Those who have worked closely with other livestock will know they all have their own characteristics and needs.

It's sad that so many perfectly healthy poines are brought to the kennels for slaughter simply because they were purchased for children who have lost interest and nobody will buy them again.


----------



## Queenbee (28 April 2014)

The question is:

Will the racing industry curb their breeding? - no.

Will the travellers curb their breeding? - no

Will everyday people stop breeding trash from their retired/LOU horses? - no

Will breeders stop or curb their breeding? No, not entirely although this is the only sector where I've witnessed some breeders taking not of what's going on and some of them ARE putting a halt on things, there are a number of breeders I know who haven't bred any foals this year because there simply isn't the market.

But in general, no, travellers don't give a hoot, too many racers will be bred because so many don't make the grade, and individual horse owners ignorantly breed believing their one foal won't affect anything in the grand scheme of things.

No matter how much you arm these idiots with the facts, the knowledge and the damning statistics they will believe that they are the exception to the rule, they will always find BS reasons why the rule doesn't apply to them and theirs.  Because of this, the issue does have to be tackled in a new and different way... Something we never dreamed we would have to see happen, has to happen.


----------



## hackneylass2 (29 April 2014)

Fatpiggy.

Have you not heard of comic irony?  In no way did I insult HRH, actually I admire her generally.  It just seems strange that such a person would eat what is seen as an inferior meat in the grand scheme of things. It also seems that she was very much against slaughter a few decades ago. now she sounds almost as bad as the rest of the Countryfile crowd. She is not the best person to ask about the whole debacle is she? Ask people who are at the sharp end!  Hence my flippant remark.  

Fatpiggy, this is a forum; open for debate -  I won't 'start' if you promise not to be so domineering. You are not my Boss.

BTW back to the topic - has anyone read the extensive researchcarried out by Temple Grandin? including her work for the huge beef processors in North and South America?  Also, what are others' views on stallion licences being re-introduced...and vigorously policed? Something has to happen yes, but its todays UK all over, people are getting away with 'murder'  - from tax free big businesses down to fly grazer/breeders and dumpers. People are doing what they do because there is nothing to stop them.


----------



## lastchancer (29 April 2014)

popsdosh said:



			To put my blunt hat on there is far more cruelty to horses carried out in the UK by bunny huggers and incompetents who will not see the responsibility of giving their horses a decent end than true horse lovers.
		
Click to expand...

And by rescues run by do gooders with no idea, funded by hysterical bunny huggers with no idea.


----------



## smellsofhorse (29 April 2014)

I think horses are more likely to suffer and not get the medical treatment they need, as the use of certain medicines exclude them from being used for human consumption.

So someone willing to sell their horose for meet isnt going to worry if its hopping lame and give it bute, they will continue to fatten it up.

They say this will get rid of the problem with unwanted and abandoned animals.
But most wont have a passsport, so medical history can not be proven therefore I presume it excludes them from beign used for human consumption.
So it wont address the problme at all!


----------



## popsdosh (29 April 2014)

hackneylass2 said:



			Fatpiggy.

Have you not heard of comic irony?  In no way did I insult HRH, actually I admire her generally.  It just seems strange that such a person would eat what is seen as an inferior meat in the grand scheme of things. It also seems that she was very much against slaughter a few decades ago. now she sounds almost as bad as the rest of the Countryfile crowd. She is not the best person to ask about the whole debacle is she? Ask people who are at the sharp end!  Hence my flippant remark.  

Fatpiggy, this is a forum; open for debate -  I won't 'start' if you promise not to be so domineering. You are not my Boss.

BTW back to the topic - has anyone read the extensive researchcarried out by Temple Grandin? including her work for the huge beef processors in North and South America?  Also, what are others' views on stallion licences being re-introduced...and vigorously policed? Something has to happen yes, but its todays UK all over, people are getting away with 'murder'  - from tax free big businesses down to fly grazer/breeders and dumpers. People are doing what they do because there is nothing to stop them.
		
Click to expand...

You cannot do anything without impinging on peoples rights. Economics will have more effect on the breeding than any other restraint. Nobody breeds horses for them to be fattened and then killed for meat as you might as well sit in the shower ripping up £50 notes . A lot and I mean a lot of the travelling community are in a desperate situation with the collapse in horse values and would desperately like to reduce their herds maybe we should consider a cull scheme where the government just takes their excess stock and disposes of them. It is the cost of disposal that is stopping a lot of them from cutting back. I know of two families who will produce no foals this year having been persuaded that keeping the stallions out was the best thing last year. 
On stallion licensing can you tell me how that cuts the number of foals being born! Why stop there why not mares as well! I can tell you as a responsible breeder I would totally oppose either measure why should I be dictated to by a panel from somewhere that most likely have a vested interest which horses I can breed from. I believe somebody in Germany tried that about 80 yrs ago and luckily it failed. I take responsibility for every horse that I breed ,however I would not be slow to do the right thing if their quality of life was threatened or compromised .
There are some bad people within the horse community but most of them do not breed horses but merely trade them as a commodity or look on them as the latest fashion accessory.


----------



## Dry Rot (29 April 2014)

This ^^^^^.

PTS is an expensive option when many will procrastinate and hope that "something will turn up". Meantime, wouldn't it be lovely for the children to breed a foal?

Potters need to franchise out so that there are other efficient and humane horse abattoirs around the country and a good export trade for horse meat on the hook.


----------



## fburton (29 April 2014)

Summed up perfectly, DR.


----------



## amandap (29 April 2014)

I see two issues here. Farming (regulated) horses for meat and what to do with waste and unwanted horses. Under current rules horses given bute, for eg. ever, cannot go into the human food chain but the passport and drug recording is a shambles so everything has to be sorted. Research into drug safety in horses for human consumption has to be done along with relaible recording of drug history if we want to send cast offs to slaughter. Owners often have stocks of currently banned drugs and give without vet knowledge! 

I agree 100% horses should be slaughtered here rather than exported live. That applies to all animals in my view.


----------



## amandap (29 April 2014)

My point was that slaughter of abandoned horses for human consumption means all the meat has to be tested not just the odd sample.


----------



## popsdosh (29 April 2014)

amandap said:



			My point was that slaughter of abandoned horses for human consumption means all the meat has to be tested not just the odd sample.
		
Click to expand...

You would not be able to slaughter abandoned horses for human consumption as they would not have passports. However I was advocating having a scheme that took unwanted horses off peoples hands and disposed of them  at no cost. They could still be used in some form to offset this cost. I am afraid a lot of the disposal cost in horses is a ripoff as a cow costs between £80-100 to dispose of if not able to go in the food chain.


----------



## flojo (29 April 2014)

jrp204 said:



			An animal reared for meat would be treated differently, we can use painkillers in our sheep that doesn't stop them going into the food chain, maybe there is something else that horses can be given? You would be dealing with an animal that would likely be reared in a group with very little handling and would be slaughtered probably before it is 2 so hopefully would be less likely to require painkillers. As with other drugs or wormers with a meat withhold period any animal that was killed within the withhold the meat would be condemned or not go for human consumption.
		
Click to expand...

No, horses wouldn't be slaughtered as youngsters, apparently their meat gets better with age, unlike beef or lamb so it would be older horses that would be used to provide meat for the table.
'Bute' is the most widely used pain killer (and one of the most effective) in horses and just a single dose would rule them out of the food chain for good- there are many commonly used drugs that also rule them out. .


----------



## MerrySherryRider (29 April 2014)

Cost of euthanasia and disposal should be charged at the beginning of a horse's life, not the end, with the start up cost being transferred at each sale and included in the price. The money would be held by an agency responsible for investing the funds and then all horses could be ensured of a dignified and compassionate end. 

It would deter back yard breeders and numpties looking to buy a horse for peanuts. 

Where does this lovely idea that horses are slaughtered humanely come from ? Not from The Red Lion Abattoir at Nantwich, now closed down because of cruelty and not from good old Potters either . It's a link for Potters; http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ug-probe-shows-brutal-seconds-ponys-life.html and then take a look at the well documented abuse video's  at The Red lion before it was shut down. 

Then tell me that abattoirs help equine welfare.


----------



## amandap (29 April 2014)

popsdosh said:



			You would not be able to slaughter abandoned horses for human consumption as they would not have passports.
		
Click to expand...

I realize that but passports are no guarantee of what drugs a horse has had in it's life. 

How do they dispose of animals not fit for consumption?


----------



## Houndman (29 April 2014)

The thing is horse meat is nowhere near as highly regulated as domestic livestock, and the nature of horse keeping does not lend itself to control.  If all horses had to have full certificates and be ear tagged etc then imagine the cost of administering such a system!

The only way to sensibly do it is to remove all drugs that may be given to horses which are unapproved for animals for consumption.


----------



## Houndman (29 April 2014)

How do they dispose of animals not fit for consumption?
		
Click to expand...

Some livestock is fed to hounds.  The rest is taken away by specialist carriers to specialist incinerators or rendering plants.  Costs a fortune.  The cheapest price to leagally dispose of a horse carcass is about £150.  The hunt kennels have a massive skip for this purpose which is handled by a specialist waste contractor.


----------



## dogatemysalad (29 April 2014)

I don't fancy eating a malnourished, worm ridden, stressed horse from an unknown source, but each to their own. Some consumers like cheap meat.


----------



## amandap (29 April 2014)

Thanks Houndman. Can I just clarify that some hunt destroyed horses (surplus)go to plants not as hound feed? Not that it matters really I am just interested as it makes sense that Hunts would otherwise need huge freezers if there's a lot of demand.

Now the rendering plants (glue factories I assue is the old name) where does their product go?


----------



## Houndman (29 April 2014)

We generally do not like to feed horse to the hounds as it is very rich and just goes through them, and we only feed where there is little beef available.  Weather affects how much fallen stock comes in, and currently with the warm weather, there is less fallen stock (which if course is good for the farmers) so we have to feed a bit of horse at the moment.  Generally the supply of fallen stock keeps up with demand at the kennels, and we pick up calves as a free service for farmers anyway as they are best for the hounds.  Surplus can be taken off us by other nearby hunts but this is limited to people who have the relevant waste transfer licensing.

Rendering plants are probably one of the earliest forms of recylcing outfits in history.  The fats are extracted from animals not fit for human consumption and used as tallow, a starting product for many industrial chemicals and detergents.  This has raised an issue in recent years due to questions about whether some detergents can be Kosher or Halal, but senior religious figures have largely dismissed the questions as the items are not consumed.

The bone meal as far as I am aware is used for fertiliser and the collagen (formerly for glue) as a base for other industrial chemicals.  The rest is a bit more regulated since the BSE scare but I expect there is more info on the internet.

There are also currently developments going on regarding obtaining bio diesel from this source.

It may not be particularly pleasant thinking of how our favourite horses end up, but the reality is that carcasses need to be disposed of properly, and this way is recycling as much as possible and as environmentally friendly as is currently available.

Re the previous poster who said disposal charges are a rip off, this is because the charges for collecting them and disposing them are huge - man hours, diesel, use of knackerwagon and its maintenance, loading into skip, paying to have the skip taken away and emptied.  Believe me, when all that has been paid for, there's little money left over.


----------



## amandap (29 April 2014)

Thank you very much for taking the time to post that. I missed this earlier post and agree. 


Houndman said:



			The thing is horse meat is nowhere near as highly regulated as domestic livestock, and the nature of horse keeping does not lend itself to control.  If all horses had to have full certificates and be ear tagged etc then imagine the cost of administering such a system!

The only way to sensibly do it is to remove all drugs that may be given to horses which are unapproved for animals for consumption.
		
Click to expand...

I take it the horsemeat producer shown in the film will not be subject to farm animal regulations either. I don't remember if a volutary code was mentioned but I imagine his customers and word are the only control mechanisms. 

I don't have a problem with farming horses for meat but if older horses are better eating I can't see it paying unless it becomes a premium product.

Re horses fate and welfare in general, well it's up to us all to step up to the plate! Not literally of course!


----------



## Houndman (29 April 2014)

The thing is, in the UK, horse meat has always been viewed as a poor person's meal so this is historically why it is not fashionable here.  Huge quantities of it were eaten during World War 2 along with meat that would be condemned today as any meat at all was welcome under rationing, and horses not in work were hard to justify keeping due to lack of availability of feed.  However when rationing ended, it was not carried on.


----------



## jrp204 (29 April 2014)

On the continent most horses reared for meat are draught horses and are slaughtered before they are 2.


----------



## amandap (29 April 2014)

That's interesting jrp204. I expect it's down to taste, which may be culturally aquired similar to us preferring lamb to mutton or even goat. We used to eat a lot of mutton in UK even as a child I remember eating it.

Horses as meat might become like oysters, no longer a poor mans meat.


----------



## thewonderhorse (29 April 2014)

I watched this and I thought that normally they show abattoirs with cows/pigs in holding pens before they go into be killed - they didn't with the horses.

I think that this part was skimmed over a bit - perhaps??

I personally wouldn't eat horse meat but I do think that something needs to be done about the equine crisis. Whether eating them is the answer I am not sure, but wheat we are doing currently is obviously not working and horses are suffering as a consequence.


----------



## amandap (29 April 2014)

thewonderhorse said:



			I watched this and I thought that normally they show abattoirs with cows/pigs in holding pens before they go into be killed - they didn't with the horses.

I think that this part was skimmed over a bit - perhaps??
		
Click to expand...

I think you are right. I expect it was pushed as far as they dare. They showed sheep in the killing cue recently. I wasn't convinced they didn't look stressed but emotion may be a factor in my impression. Large scale slaughter must be impossible to get stress free.


----------



## PolarSkye (29 April 2014)

popsdosh said:



			A lot and I mean a lot of the travelling community are in a desperate situation with the collapse in horse values and would desperately like to reduce their herds maybe we should consider a cull scheme where the government just takes their excess stock and disposes of them. It is the cost of disposal that is stopping a lot of them from cutting back. I know of two families who will produce no foals this year having been persuaded that keeping the stallions out was the best thing last year.
		
Click to expand...

Completely agree and I have similar personal experience wrt Travellers.  

The whole issue is incredibly complex and it's simply unfair to lay the blame at the door of any one particular group . . . that said, before any measures are introduced, the debacle that is the passport "industry" needs to be fully resolved - it's beyond a joke.  The silhouette in my horse's passport isn't him . . . however the microchip matches . . . he's been through at least three owners (including me) since he left Poland . . . all on a dodgy passport - and I KNOW I'm not alone.  It's an utter farce.

P


----------



## Houndman (29 April 2014)

Seaweed is another food seldom nowadays eaten in the UK purely as it has been seen as a poor man's food, though pre agricultural revolution, and with coastal communities later, it was regularly consumed.  Nutritionalists will all tell you it is very good for you, and it is eaten in plenty of other countries around the world and elsewhere in Europe.  Laver in Wales and Ireland was once a main staple vegetable.

Of course seaweed is found in a multitude of other products in the form of extracts, many of which we don't realise it's in.

Another reason that horses are not generally reared specifically for meat anywhere is because they do not mature quickly and gain weight rapidly in the way that beef, lamb and pork do and so to do so would not be cost effective.


----------



## Penny Less (29 April 2014)

I don't think people in the Uk would eat horsemeat, we don't eat rabbit as a general rule, but once it was a staple.


----------



## Houndman (29 April 2014)

Plenty of rabbit eaten in rural areas and around here (we ate it last week), but its decline is more to the availability of cheaper alternatives with less preparation required such as battery reared turkey and chicken.

I think you would be surprised and that there would be people eating horse meat in the UK if it were more widely available and competitively priced.


----------



## Cortez (29 April 2014)

I suspect that most of us have actually eaten horse meat, if you recall the not-so-recent scandals re "beef" lasagne, etc......


----------



## popsdosh (29 April 2014)

Houndman said:



			Re the previous poster who said disposal charges are a rip off, this is because the charges for collecting them and disposing them are huge - man hours, diesel, use of knackerwagon and its maintenance, loading into skip, paying to have the skip taken away and emptied.  Believe me, when all that has been paid for, there's little money left over.
		
Click to expand...

My point was not needing a breakdown of cost involved .It was merely pointing out that the cost of disposing of a horse is twice what it cost for an over 4yo cow that can only be incinerated and this also includes the cost brain sampling and testing! I just dont see the justification for this. The carcases from these cows are rendered and then used to fuel power stations.


----------



## Echo Bravo (29 April 2014)

No for one I have never eaten horse meat and I cook everything from scratch pity more people don't do it, maybe they would enjoy their food more and as for the rabbit situation many people stopped eating rabbit when the mxiy came in, as many rural folk use to trap and eat what they caught and when you started seeing skinny rabbits with swollen eyes not able to move drink or eat, people stopped eating and eating rabbit died there and then, breeders couldn't sell as many people didn't want to know, the only thing that has kept the rabbits going is as pets.


----------



## PolarSkye (30 April 2014)

Echo Bravo said:



			No for one I have never eaten horse meat and I cook everything from scratch pity more people don't do it, maybe they would enjoy their food more
		
Click to expand...

Are you sure?  Have you never eaten out?  I cook from scratch too and I'm very careful who I buy my meat from . . . but I do enjoy a burger from a van when out at competitions and have been known to eat out everywhere from Michelin starred restaurants to little local curry houses . . . odds are I've consumed horsemeat at some point - and, if you have eaten out, you too.

P


----------



## siennamum (30 April 2014)

Most local traveller families are still indiscriminately breeding. Why are we having to even discuss cultural and infrastructure change to accommodate the preferences of groups of people who are responsible for this problem.
The animals we see suffering daily in the news seem to do so because of political correctness IMO. I get sick of it, slaughter the horses wholesale, properly enforce a passport scheme or similar. People can eat horsemeat if they want, the ones abandoned & starving are not fit for consumption anyway.


----------



## Alec Swan (30 April 2014)

A good post siennamum.

Another point that we could consider.  I haven't read this thread in its entirety,  and the point may have already been made,  but were these horses sheep,  or cattle,  even those without ear-tags,  they would be rounded up,  sold or placed with a responsible person,  fed and got to the stage of being 'Fit for Slaughter',  and then they'd go in to 'A' food chain,  and whether that would be for the Pet Trade,  or for Human Consumption,  would be immaterial.

The problem is that these animals are worthless,  indeed it's worse than that,  they're a costly liability,  which explains their abandonment.

If you want to know who to blame for this deplorable state of affairs,  do your research and come back to us and advise us just who it was who campaigned,  in such a vociferous manner,  to prevent the slaughter of horses.  Seek out those who campaigned for the ridiculous 'Clause 9' on a horse passport,  and who by underhand means had the use of Bute barred from entering the human food chain.  Whilst your at it,  seek out those who flatly refuse to support a humane and dignified end for our equines,  and I will show you those who are responsible for this disgraceful mess.

Yes,  I feel very strongly about the matter,  and in all my attempts to encourage the restitution of a previously satisfactory system,  so all that I meet with are the spineless.  I've given up.

Alec.


----------



## popsdosh (30 April 2014)

I totally agree ,but just need to point out that cattle or sheep without ear tags cannot enter any food chain. In the case of cattle unless the animal is registered within 28 days of birth and tagged at the same time it is impossible to sell for meat the only outlet being for rendering .
luckily it looks like from next year horses may come under the same agency for the control of passporting then things will tighten up!

The Bute thing is a different issue and I totally agree with that being banned in the food chain ,Bute was originally developed to relieve arthritis in humans but was withdrawn after several deaths and heart issues. However there are other anti inflamatories that can still be used in horses ie meloxicam or finadine which would not preclude horses from the food chain as long as the withdrawal periods are adhered to.


----------



## dogatemysalad (30 April 2014)

siennamum said:



			Most local traveller families are still indiscriminately breeding. Why are we having to even discuss cultural and infrastructure change to accommodate the preferences of groups of people who are responsible for this problem.
The animals we see suffering daily in the news seem to do so because of political correctness IMO. I get sick of it, slaughter the horses wholesale, properly enforce a passport scheme or similar. People can eat horsemeat if they want, the ones abandoned & starving are not fit for consumption anyway.
		
Click to expand...

'Most local traveller families' ? It is unacceptable to write such discriminatory non-facts about a specific group. Of course there are some that are bad, just as some are excellent. 

I see more indiscriminate breeding coming from the general equestrian population. Some of which is not indiscriminate, only disposable.


----------



## Alec Swan (30 April 2014)

Phenylbutazone (Bute),  was as you say,  designed for human usage.  At the dosage rate,  and for humans there was a risk to a very small percentage of those who were users.  In the infinitesimally small dosage which is used for horses,  and considering that the retained amount of the chemical,  would be further 'watered down',  so the risk to human life is so small as to be negligible,  and of no consequence.  

The claim that Bute,  or it's minimal residual levels,  would be a risk to human life or well being,  was the necessary leverage needed,  by the campaigners at the time,  and to prevent or bring to an end the 'Trade' in equines for human consumption.  Coupled with that was the page in our modern horse passports whereby any owner,  at any time,  could have an animal removed from the food chain and so deny any future owner anything other than costly disposal costs.  I'm not even sure that 'Clause 9' is actually legal in that I suspect that the ruling could,  and perhaps should,  be challenged in a Court,  but that's another matter!

Alec.


----------



## siennamum (30 April 2014)

dogatemysalad said:



			'Most local traveller families' ? It is unacceptable to write such discriminatory non-facts about a specific group. Of course there are some that are bad, just as some are excellent. 

I see more indiscriminate breeding coming from the general equestrian population. Some of which is not indiscriminate, only disposable.
		
Click to expand...

I disagree. I think you are falling a victim to political correctness. I could improve my sentence my adding the word 'seem', but most local traveller families have stallions & colts running with mares and herds of mares who are heavily infoal with yearlings running in the herd. I'm not saying there aren't excellent traveller families, just that most local (to me) are breeding indiscriminately. How is that discriminatory?

I can also state that many white neighbours of mine drive vans or are known to frequent the local. That is not discriminatory, just a statement of fact. 
It's about time we stopped being afraid to state facts in case they offend,  the consequences could be that we will have a crisis for hundreds of poor starved horses up and down the country when the bottom drops out of the illegal horsemeat trade......


----------



## dogatemysalad (30 April 2014)

siennamum said:



			I disagree. I think you are falling a victim to political correctness. I could improve my sentence my adding the word 'seem', but most local traveller families have stallions & colts running with mares and herds of mares who are heavily infoal with yearlings running in the herd. I'm not saying there aren't excellent traveller families, just that most local (to me) are breeding indiscriminately. How is that discriminatory?

I can also state that many white neighbours of mine drive vans or are known to frequent the local. That is not discriminatory, just a statement of fact. 
It's about time we stopped being afraid to state facts in case they offend,  the consequences could be that we will have a crisis for hundreds of poor starved horses up and down the country when the bottom drops out of the illegal horsemeat trade......
		
Click to expand...

Have you got statistics to prove your 'facts' ? I live (and have lived) in counties with large traveller communities and I would disagree. Perhaps they are just more visible than amongst the rest of the horse owning community. 
Political correctness is not something I've been accused of before. It's made me smile though.


----------



## siennamum (30 April 2014)

There is a camp in our village, families there have 3 herds where breeding is continuing unabated. 
There are numerous in foal mares tethered on other sites I have passed recently - all local. It is no different to other years. I'm referring to local traveller families, maybe in other parts of the country things are different.


----------



## popsdosh (30 April 2014)

Alec Swan said:



			Phenylbutazone (Bute),  was as you say,  designed for human usage.  At the dosage rate,  and for humans there was a risk to a very small percentage of those who were users.  In the infinitesimally small dosage which is used for horses,  and considering that the retained amount of the chemical,  would be further 'watered down',  so the risk to human life is so small as to be negligible,  and of no consequence.  

The claim that Bute,  or it's minimal residual levels,  would be a risk to human life or well being,  was the necessary leverage needed,  by the campaigners at the time,  and to prevent or bring to an end the 'Trade' in equines for human consumption.  Coupled with that was the page in our modern horse passports whereby any owner,  at any time,  could have an animal removed from the food chain and so deny any future owner anything other than costly disposal costs.  I'm not even sure that 'Clause 9' is actually legal in that I suspect that the ruling could,  and perhaps should,  be challenged in a Court,  but that's another matter!

Alec.
		
Click to expand...

AS far as I am aware any new owner or indeed the present owner can lift that clause subject to a 6 month withdrawal period!


----------



## Queenbee (1 May 2014)

Houndman said:



			The thing is, in the UK, horse meat has always been viewed as a poor person's meal so this is historically why it is not fashionable here.  Huge quantities of it were eaten during World War 2 along with meat that would be condemned today as any meat at all was welcome under rationing, and horses not in work were hard to justify keeping due to lack of availability of feed.  However when rationing ended, it was not carried on.
		
Click to expand...

Well, there's a lot of poor people in the uk at the moment :/


----------



## Houndman (2 May 2014)

Queenbee said:



			Well, there's a lot of poor people in the uk at the moment :/
		
Click to expand...

Yes.  I am absolutely certain that if horse meat were made available to the general public at a lower price than beef, it would sell.  Might not appeal to everyone, but it would still sell.


----------



## dogatemysalad (2 May 2014)

Houndman said:



			Yes.  I am absolutely certain that if horse meat were made available to the general public at a lower price than beef, it would sell.  Might not appeal to everyone, but it would still sell.
		
Click to expand...

You're probably right, after all people eat anything from takeaways and the frozen cabinet. However, rabbit hasn't reached the mass market even thought it used to be available in large supermarkets.


----------



## Houndman (2 May 2014)

Rabbit is only cheap if its in its unprepared state.  If you have to pay someone to joint, trim and package it, you are paying for extra labour and packaging so it's no longer cheaper than other meats.


----------



## Alec Swan (2 May 2014)

dogatemysalad said:



			You're probably right, after all people eat anything from takeaways and the frozen cabinet. However, rabbit hasn't reached the mass market even thought it used to be available in large supermarkets.
		
Click to expand...




Houndman said:



			Rabbit is only cheap if its in its unprepared state.  If you have to pay someone to joint, trim and package it, you are paying for extra labour and packaging so it's no longer cheaper than other meats.
		
Click to expand...

Good points made by both of the above quoted posters.  The only reason why horse meat is as cheap as it is,  is because the processors cut corners.  Horses have the problem,  from the viewpoint of meat production,  in that it has always only ever been of secondary interest.  The bone-to-meat ratio is so poor,  as to make the animal an unviable commercial proposition.  Sheep,  for instance are bred for their meat and their wool,  and cattle for meat,  milk production and hides.  Horses are bred for entirely different purposes.

Alec.


----------



## Pigeon (2 May 2014)

Introducing horses into the foodchain is like putting a plaster on an axe wound. We need to look at thoughtless breeding, and of course, what happens to racehorses when their career ends...


----------



## Echo Bravo (2 May 2014)

I would say most young racehorses that don't make the grade one way or the other do go into the so called meat market just like any other horse what ever breed or make. But the pits end is the travellers ponies who are bred with no thought, their thinking is an empty mare is an empty space, the colts go for meat. I bought a 4 month old foal 3 years ago from English travellers I know, and he has been nothing but trouble and a lot of money since I've owned him. He is out off a little welsh coloured mare about 13hh x Clyesdale (must have been a young colt) he has a slipping stifle and several other problems bless him, I do admit I love him to pieces, but as a riding horse not going to make it, he's going to be a field orniment and lucky for him that I have the space and money to keep him for the rest of his life. But I think I'm one of the stupid ones I felt sorry for so bought him, if I'd thought with my head I'd have gone for a young racehorse or arab.


----------



## 3OldPonies (9 May 2014)

MiJodsR2BlinkinTite said:



			I guess my main concern would be if horses WERE "officially" as it were, put into the food chain in the UK, is that the n'er do wells of society would then see horses as an immediate source of cash, i.e. steal from the fields, apply for a new passport, and then take the poor unfortunate animal  to an abattoir and get easy money for the meat-price. Unthinkable, but it would be every horse owner's worst nightmare.
		
Click to expand...

This is my thought as well.  Especially since there is going to be no commercial benefit in rounding up skinny, disease riddled abandoned and neglected ponies and horses for the food chain, they wouldn't be passed fit for consumption.  Whereas field ornaments like my well cared for oldies would possibly become prime targets for thieves.


----------



## 3OldPonies (9 May 2014)

I've read a few more posts now and something has struck me.  Houndman and several others have referred to the cost of PTS.  So a suggestion to consider, what if the equine charities, instead of whinging that they are overloaded and their welfare offices saying (saw this in an article ages ago) that they are finding the constant recommending that animals be PTS extremely stressful why don't they start a subsidised PTS service?  I'm sure that there are many owners who may be in financial dire straits would potentially take this up rather than leave an old or sick animal in pain or abandoning it completely.  Obviously there would have to be constraints to stop people taking the mick out of such a service, such as a basic means test or similar to confirm that the owner couldn't afford the cost and there would have to be a connection to a rendering service, hunt or zoo or whatever but it might go some way to helping the current problem without creating a market for horsemeat.


----------



## Spook (9 May 2014)

I must confess to not trawling through this thread...... but are cattle and sheep not also "flight animals"? ~We eat them don't we? I agree that some cattle are flightier than others just the same as horses. Stress  is not exclusive.


----------



## amandap (12 May 2014)

Spook said:



			I must confess to not trawling through this thread...... but are cattle and sheep not also "flight animals"? ~We eat them don't we? I agree that some cattle are flightier than others just the same as horses. Stress  is not exclusive.
		
Click to expand...

True. 
Cattle and sheep are managed differently though so this may explain the less potentially explosive behaviour. They are used to being herded and being in confined chutes and areas. Flight animals can also freeze when stressed I believe.

Also most of us on this forum are more aware of stress signs in horses and identify with them because of our personal relatioships with them. A different mind set is required for farming animals v pets.
I am not saying Farmers are less caring btw.


----------



## costin (12 May 2014)

In my country, this type of stories are quite regular, although organizations dedicated to animal protection tries to change the way authority imply in this issue
The common scenario is that a farmer buys a horse in the spring, intensively uses it in agricultural activities, when autumn comes and he is in no need for the animal, simply leaves it on a field to starve. Local authorities can apply fees for bad treatments applied to animals, but they fear they would lose perfect people for voting process, so the poor animals have to suffer, to be tortured for people`s selfish desires


----------



## Alec Swan (13 May 2014)

3OldPonies said:



			....... there would have to be a connection to a rendering service, hunt or zoo or whatever but it might go some way to helping the current problem without creating a market for horsemeat.
		
Click to expand...

Where is the distinction,  for you,  in finding it acceptable for a horse to end up as flesh supplied to a zoo,  or a pack of hounds,  but then it being unacceptable for a legitimate trade in horse meat for other purposes?  I'm assuming now from your last six words,  that you would be opposed to the idea of a market for horse meat.

Are you able to accept the concept that if horses are given an end value,  and that if there is a properly run and managed abattoir system,  which is monitored,  that this would bring,  if not to an end,  at least a huge reduction in the welfare problems?  

The idea that the major charities,  which are of phenomenal wealth,  and being run by accountants,  having every intention of hanging on to that wealth,  and offering a freebie pts service,  is a daydream,  I'm sorry to tell you.  The bulk of our welfare charities have no interest,  whatsoever,  in seeing an end to the problem of horse welfare,  I'm equally sorry to tell you.  They are very well aware that to support a legitimate disposal service which should be,  if properly organised,  self-funding,  will damage their fund raising abilities,  and as they are very well aware,  then so we should be too!!

Before anyone leaps to the defence of our major equine charities,  just answer yourselves this,  if we didn't have a problem,  would these charities exist,  and would they be as wealthy as they appear to be?

Alec.


----------



## jrp204 (13 May 2014)

amandap said:



			True. 
Cattle and sheep are managed differently though so this may explain the less potentially explosive behaviour. They are used to being herded and being in confined chutes and areas. Flight animals can also freeze when stressed I believe.

Also most of us on this forum are more aware of stress signs in horses and identify with them because of our personal relatioships with them. A different mind set is required for farming animals v pets.
I am not saying Farmers are less caring btw.
		
Click to expand...

If horses were kept for their meat they would be treated the same, in a herd, they would soon get used to going into a race as they would be introduced to handling equipment from newborn, the same as lambs and calves do. Agree, a different mindset is required to farm, our animals are our living, we know all of our sheep individually (we breed pedigree sheep and some commercial) but our hearts don't rule our heads and we also don't humanise them which I think is a major issues with horse owners.
A market for horse meat would mean Animal Health would become involved and they do have power, unlike the welfare charities. This could only be a good thing.


----------



## amandap (13 May 2014)

jrp204 said:



			A market for horse meat would mean Animal Health would become involved and they do have power, unlike the welfare charities. This could only be a good thing.
		
Click to expand...

Yes but this wouldn't cover the waste horses used for leisure and sport but might reduce herds of poor quality horses. Then again, farming under regulations costs money so I expect some would still breed quantity out in the sticks for the leisure market. The price of horse meat would shoot up.


----------



## jrp204 (13 May 2014)

Effectively, leisure animals would become 'cull' the same as an old cow or sheep so would still fall under AH if they were going to slaughter or into the food chain. Yes, costs would be involved but maybe they need to be to help regulate and stop this indiscriminate breeding and to increase welfare?


----------



## amandap (13 May 2014)

jrp204 said:



			Effectively, leisure animals would become 'cull' the same as an old cow or sheep so would still fall under AH if they were going to slaughter or into the food chain. Yes, costs would be involved but maybe they need to be to help regulate and stop this indiscriminate breeding and to increase welfare?
		
Click to expand...

Ah I see. Most sport and leisure couldn't go in the food chain though under current banned drug rules, recording and passport system, they'd have to go for factory use. Are you meaning they should all come under AH anyway whether farmed or leisure?  
I still see two types of horses if farming horses was viable, so 'good' equine slaughter must be part of any plan.

ps. There's that old chestnut of regulating breeders/breeding!


----------



## jrp204 (13 May 2014)

I suppose in an ideal world all animals would be ID'd in a visible way as in freezebranding or eartagging alongside a passport system that has to be registered with DEFRA the same way farm animals have to be, ownership is also transferred this way. Most horses will go through a disposal method of some sort be it slaughter for human consumption, animal consumption or rendering, slaughter houses that deal with horses would have to conform the same way as those that slaughter farm animals.


----------



## 3OldPonies (19 May 2014)

Alec Swan said:



			Where is the distinction,  for you,  in finding it acceptable for a horse to end up as flesh supplied to a zoo,  or a pack of hounds,  but then it being unacceptable for a legitimate trade in horse meat for other purposes?  I'm assuming now from your last six words,  that you would be opposed to the idea of a market for horse meat.


Alec.
		
Click to expand...

You are quite corrent in your assumption, I am dead against creating a market for horsemeat. If you read my earlier messages you will see that I am concerned over the liklihood of an increase in thefts of much loved, well cared for field ornaments like mine.  They are completely worthless except for my sentimental value as all are unable to be ridden, but to a loser looking for a quick buck and with a way of getting a false passport, then if a market was created then they would just look in the field and see pound signs.


----------



## jrp204 (19 May 2014)

Maybe horses that cannot/will not go into the food chain should be freeze branded in a similar way to LOU. This would ensure they have little or no value to anyone wanting to steal a field ornament or the like to sell for meat.


----------

