# Do small puppies remain small?



## Patchworkpony (4 August 2015)

If a puppy is the smallest of the litter when born will it always remain a small dog or will it grow and catch up as an adult? Your experiences please.


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## MurphysMinder (4 August 2015)

In a word , no!   In my experience most times small puppies catch up and often overtake their litter mates, unless there is a health problem .


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## Bellasophia (4 August 2015)

I don't think it always equates that small pups remain the smallest of the litter.The breeder will often make an extra effort to place the tiny one on the front nipple so it feeds well,sometimes even do top ups to get the little one off to a better start.
If the pup in question doesn't have a physical health issue,then he should catch up with his siblings in fast time.


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## Alec Swan (4 August 2015)

In my experience,  and whilst they will to a degree 'catch-up',  they're unlikely to reach the same stamp as they're siblings.

HOWEVER,  what it is about the undersized I don't know,  but they are often those which are the most nimble,  the most athletic and are generally and mentally,  quite 'quick'.

Many years ago a genius of a sheepdog man advised me to pick the smallest and the ugliest pup,  and in over 30 years,  his advice has stood me in good stead.

Out of interest,  why do you ask?  It's a topic of interest to me.

Alec.


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## Annette4 (4 August 2015)

Jack was the runt of the litter....he is now over height and is bigger than his siblings.


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## Alec Swan (4 August 2015)

Annette4 said:



			Jack was the runt of the litter....he is now over height and is bigger than his siblings.
		
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Has Jack been castrated,  and if he was,  at what age was the op carried out?

Alec.


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## Impu1sion (4 August 2015)

I'm collecting my puppy tomorrow, he is the smallest in the litter, but the bossiest!  Interesting thread for me, thanks


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## Patchworkpony (4 August 2015)

Alec Swan said:



			In my experience,  and whilst they will to a degree 'catch-up',  they're unlikely to reach the same stamp as they're siblings.

HOWEVER,  what it is about the undersized I don't know,  but they are often those which are the most nimble,  the most athletic and are generally and mentally,  quite 'quick'.

Many years ago a genius of a sheepdog man advised me to pick the smallest and the ugliest pup,  and in over 30 years,  his advice has stood me in good stead.

Out of interest,  why do you ask?  It's a topic of interest to me.

Alec.[/QUOTE

Possibly looking at some working cocker pups but don't want anything too big. The smallest is the colour I prefer and to my mind would suit me best on size so I wouldn't want it to grow too much. As you are one of the best experts to my mind on this forum could you please answer me a question? I love spaniels but do now consider springers to be too mad for me these days, don't want a show cocker and thought that a working cocker would be ideal as I have land and plenty of time to train it. However today two people have told me they are a mad breed and worse than springers. My question Alec is whether this true and whether they need a huge amount of work and exercise to keep them calm or does it depend very much on each individual dog? I am now in a dilemma as to whether I should get this puppy which I haven't yet seen in the flesh. Sorry one more question - are the working spaniel pups only normally for sale during the summer when the bitches aren't out working on shoots?
		
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## Annette4 (4 August 2015)

Alec Swan said:



			Has Jack been castrated,  and if he was,  at what age was the op carried out?

Alec.
		
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He was done at 5 months on the vets advice due to a retained testicle causing issues so early really.


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## Thistle (4 August 2015)

I'm no expert but have a springer pup and know many people in gun dog community who have both cockers and springers. I have always been told that Springers work for you, cockers are self employed. A Labrador is born half trained and a Spaniel will die half trained. Generally I think Cockers are supposed to be much more hard work than Springers


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## Nicnac (4 August 2015)

Thistle said:



			I'm no expert but have a springer pup and know many people in gun dog community who have both cockers and springers. I have always been told that Springers work for you, cockers are self employed. A Labrador is born half trained and a Spaniel will die half trained. Generally I think Cockers are supposed to be much more hard work than Springers
		
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And Flatcoats are born and die impossible to train


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## Alec Swan (4 August 2015)

Alec Swan said:



			Has Jack been castrated,  and if he was,  at what age was the op carried out?

Alec.
		
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Annette4 said:



			He was done at 5 months on the vets advice due to a retained testicle causing issues so early really.
		
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When any male is castrated,  pre-puberty,  then the result is often that their 'natural' production of testosterone is stopped (or doesn't even start),  and the result is that their energies are directed towards skeletal growth.  At least,  that's what I think! The eunuchs of days gone by often reached a height of seven feet,  and look at how many early-cut geldings will reach a height of 17 hands and they come from parents who may be no more that 16 hands.

Far be it from me to contradict the veterinary advice which you were given,  but I've known of several grown and active and healthy dogs which were monorchid and with one testicle 'retained inside',  and none that I knew of came to any harm!  I've also had puppies which at 5 months didn't have both testicles down,  but which eventually lowered the second!  Sometimes some veterinary advice is bullocks! 

Alec.


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## Alec Swan (4 August 2015)

Patchworkpony said:



			&#8230;&#8230;.. I love spaniels but do now consider springers to be too mad for me these days, don't want a show cocker and thought that a working cocker would be ideal as I have land and plenty of time to train it. However today two people have told me they are a mad breed and worse than springers. My question Alec is whether this true and whether they need a huge amount of work and exercise to keep them calm or does it depend very much on each individual dog? I am now in a dilemma as to whether I should get this puppy which I haven't yet seen in the flesh. Sorry one more question - are the working spaniel pups only normally for sale during the summer when the bitches aren't out working on shoots?
		
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There are no hard and fast rules regarding cockers,  in my view.  40 years ago,  just about every cocker which I saw or owned,  was bloody hard work!  'Then',  they all needed an early start in the discipline department!  'Now',  I've changed my view!  Somehow they seem to be far more sensitive to correction and a more sensitive approach needs to be made.  From a work perspective,  they need to be allowed their heads,  they need to be allowed to be 'children'  if you like.  Correction for cockers needs to be delayed until they are confident and capable of accepting it.  That may be 3 months or 9 months,  or even not at all.

A couple of years back,  I bred a litter of puppies by the Field Trial Championship winner of 2013,  who is a serious hard case(!) and out of a lovely confident and Ch x Ch bred bitch.  The puppies had nothing restrictive done with them and were allowed virtually a free rein.  I'm in touch with most,  some in pet homes,  and for reasons that I'm not sure,  but they're all a bit diffident and shy.  

Cockers tend to be quite intense.  They also tend to 'own' their owners and can be easily offended.  It all depends upon the individual animal,  regardless of what the breed aficionados may tell you!

Thinking about it,  there's a fine line,  and the time to start with a bit of discipline,  is when they decide that they know best,  and they don't want to listen to you.  Within a litter of 6 puppies,  you may well find that each and every one of them is totally different!  I love my Cockers,  but they aren't everyone's dogs.

Alec.


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## Archangel (4 August 2015)

My old lab was the runt of the litter, he was very small but he turned out to be the biggest (and best imo) by far.  He was a very laid back dog (even for a lab) so I guess he just got pushed out by his siblings.  My sister had a bitch from the same litter and she was a big puppy but she was always much more gung ho right from the start.


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## twiggy2 (4 August 2015)

the smallest as a pup does not always stay the smallest
working cockers are far more full on and often a big pig headed compared to springers.

Alec many many dogs with retained testicles develop cancer at the site of the testicles-they are designed to be outside the body at a cooler temperature so being retained can make them do funny things, they can also create a torsion and adhese to other organs


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## Patchworkpony (4 August 2015)

Alec Swan said:



			There are no hard and fast rules regarding cockers,  in my view.  40 years ago,  just about every cocker which I saw or owned,  was bloody hard work!  'Then',  they all needed an early start in the discipline department!  'Now',  I've changed my view!  Somehow they seem to be far more sensitive to correction and a more sensitive approach needs to be made.  From a work perspective,  they need to be allowed their heads,  they need to be allowed to be 'children'  if you like.  Correction for cockers needs to be delayed until they are confident and capable of accepting it.  That may be 3 months or 9 months,  or even not at all.

A couple of years back,  I bred a litter of puppies by the Field Trial Championship winner of 2013,  who is a serious hard case(!) and out of a lovely confident and Ch x Ch bred bitch.  The puppies had nothing restrictive done with them and were allowed virtually a free rein.  I'm in touch with most,  some in pet homes,  and for reasons that I'm not sure,  but they're all a bit diffident and shy.  

Cockers tend to be quite intense.  They also tend to 'own' their owners and can be easily offended.  It all depends upon the individual animal,  regardless of what the breed aficionados may tell you!

Thinking about it,  there's a fine line,  and the time to start with a bit of discipline,  is when they decide that they know best,  and they don't want to listen to you.  Within a litter of 6 puppies,  you may well find that each and every one of them is totally different!  I love my Cockers,  but they aren't everyone's dogs.

Alec.
		
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Thank you Alec you have helped me make my mind up.


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## Alec Swan (4 August 2015)

Patchworkpony said:



			Thank you Alec you have helped me make my mind up.
		
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AAHH,  but in which direction?  I'm hoping that I haven't put you off.  The best rewards are generally achieved from the most difficult dogs,  and Cockers can be a bit tricky!  A bit perverse,  I'll grant you,  but it's to do with the challenge of getting inside a dog's head,  and having the dog 'wanting' to comply.  The better that we achieve that,  so the happier the dog that we have.

Alec.


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## Patchworkpony (4 August 2015)

Alec Swan said:



			AAHH,  but in which direction?  I'm hoping that I haven't put you off.  The best rewards are generally achieved from the most difficult dogs,  and Cockers can be a bit tricky!  A bit perverse,  I'll grant you,  but it's to do with the challenge of getting inside a dog's head,  and having the dog 'wanting' to comply.  The better that we achieve that,  so the happier the dog that we have.

Alec.
		
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You've certainly got me thinking and I need to take stock instead of rushing in headlong. The question is am I the right owner for a cocker? I suspect they are the canine equivalent to a fell pony and I reluctantly recognise I am too old to deal with that breed any more!


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## twiggy2 (4 August 2015)

Patchworkpony said:



			You've certainly got me thinking and I need to take stock instead of rushing in headlong. The question is am I the right owner for a cocker? I suspect they are the canine equivalent to a fell pony and I reluctantly recognise I am too old to deal with that breed any more!
		
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a fell pony on speed


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## Chiffy (5 August 2015)

Nicnac said:



			And Flatcoats are born and die impossible to train 

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Oh Nicnac, why are you always so rude about flatcoats? I have had them for 35 years and every one has been brilliant and easy to train. Full of fun,enthusiasm and willingness to please. 
n my experience at gundog classes alot easier and less hyper than any spaniel.
Sorry, I dont often get on my high horse, but you touched a nerve there about my favourite breed!


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## Patchworkpony (5 August 2015)

twiggy2 said:



			a fell pony on speed
		
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OMG then I'm certainly too old!


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## twiggy2 (5 August 2015)

Chiffy said:



			Oh Nicnac, why are you always so rude about flatcoats? I have had them for 35 years and every one has been brilliant and easy to train. Full of fun,enthusiasm and willingness to please. 
n my experience at gundog classes alot easier and less hyper than any spaniel.
Sorry, I dont often get on my high horse, but you touched a nerve there about my favourite breed!
		
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I have never owned one but know a family who usually have somewhere between 7-10 at any given time (not including pups) the have all been a bit crazy but as well trained as the owners want them to be, very people focused, great with other dogs, all off lead on the yard under supervision and non horse chasers. Not really my cup of tea though


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## Alec Swan (5 August 2015)

Patchworkpony said:



			OMG then I'm certainly too old!
		
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^^^^ 

As a compromise,  you could always approach one of the rescue outfits and see if you can find one which if not old and doddery,  at least displays some level of sanity!  Though perhaps a bit thin on the ground,  they do exist!

Alec.

Ets, if you google Gundog Training Forum,  there's someone on there who operates a Cocker Rescue.  My opinion of the person concerned isn't really printable,  but you may find that if you 'rescue' from a 'Rescue',  if you see what I mean,  that you may find what you're looking for.  Good luck! a.


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## Alec Swan (5 August 2015)

Chiffy said:



			Oh Nicnac, why are you always so rude about flatcoats? I have had them for 35 years and every one has been brilliant and easy to train. Full of fun,enthusiasm and willingness to please. 
n my experience at gundog classes alot easier and less hyper than any spaniel.
Sorry, I dont often get on my high horse, but you touched a nerve there about my favourite breed!
		
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I took Nicnac's post to be rather t-i-c,  but that said,  as a breed,  they can be a little less than amenable.  Whether that's to do with their owners,  or the dogs themselves,  I've yet to work out!  Mostly,  when it comes to working dogs,  the more recalcitrant breeds tend to lose favour,  and the more amenable tend to increase in numbers.  It's logical when you think about it!  They are,  I'll grant you,  handsome animals,  but from what I've seen of them,  there are more suitable breeds about which are easier trained and mostly make a better job of their work.

Alec.


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## Patchworkpony (5 August 2015)

Alec Swan said:



			^^^^ 

As a compromise,  you could always approach one of the rescue outfits and see if you can find one which if not old and doddery,  at least displays some level of sanity!  Though perhaps a bit thin on the ground,  they do exist!

Alec.

Ets, if you google Gundog Training Forum,  there's someone on there who operates a Cocker Rescue.  My opinion of the person concerned isn't really printable,  but you may find that if you 'rescue' from a 'Rescue',  if you see what I mean,  that you may find what you're looking for.  Good luck! a.
		
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Thanks so much Alec you have been really helpful. Out of interest why do these dogs end up in rescue - is it because people can't handle them or that they are gun shy etc.?


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## Alec Swan (5 August 2015)

Patchworkpony said:



			&#8230;&#8230;.. . Out of interest why do these dogs end up in rescue - is it because people can't handle them or that they are gun shy etc.?
		
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An interesting question and one with answers which will be as varied as the dogs themselves!  NOT always,  but mostly,  dogs end up in rescue centres for the simple reason that they've got the better of their owners.  How many posts do we read on here where some have said that they were the fourth home for the animal?  With so many previous influences,  is it any wonder that the poor creature's confused and totally un-accepting of human contact,  and (God forbid!) discipline?

To answer your question as to why the poor wee things end up as they do with the well intentioned but often ill-advised;  The answer is all so often,  as you suggest,  that the dog is just too much dog for the owner.  Another possible point for you to consider;  If the dog which you view has a full tail (accepting that it was bred for work),  then I'd leave it where it is.  If the tail's been docked,  then you may rest assured that it was done legally and that the intent behind the breeding was sound,  and with that in mind,  you 'MAY' have a dog which is willing to accept boundaries and discipline.

If you really would like a work-bred Cocker,  don't give up,  there are plenty which are as amenable as you could wish for,  it's just that 'selection' is the key!

Alec.


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## Patchworkpony (5 August 2015)

Alec Swan said:



			If you really would like a work-bred Cocker,  don't give up,  there are plenty which are as amenable as you could wish for,  it's just that 'selection' is the key!

Alec.
		
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I would REALLY like a working cocker but I don't want a mad badly behaved animal. So how does one find the right one because most breeders will tell you what you want to hear.


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## quagga (5 August 2015)

Got two working cockers. The bitch we chose 11 years ago was the smallest of the litter and she's still pretty small (approx 10kg), compared to our dog who is 15kg but a completely different build. As they are bred for working ability & temperament rather than appearance they do seem to come in all shapes and sizes. As long as they are sound & fit I don't think it really matters what they look like.

They are mostly pets but do dabble in obedience and agility. Walked off lead for 1-2 hours a day, they don't need endless exercise and have good off switches. They do need their little brains working - both are very clever and driven, love learning stupid tricks e.g. beg, shut the door etc, and I've done basic gundog training with them. They are a bit mad (that's a given with spaniels - they are endlessly enthusiastic and if you don't like that then I wouldn't get one!!!) but are not badly behaved in the slightest - don't run off, social with dogs and people, take them anywhere, do anything with them just happy, busy little dogs!! 

TBH our dog is 'crazier' than our bitch - he is higher energy, more demanding and would get obsessive if he wasn't worked & exercised enough, but we knew that when we chose him - he was a toerag of a pup. I think most breeders will be able to tell you the basic temps of the pups and could advise you on aa easier pup if that's what you want. 

Spaniels are great


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## Patchworkpony (5 August 2015)

What wonderful looking dogs - guagga! Thanks so much for your advice.


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## H_A_C (5 August 2015)

This is my 9 week old pup Beau I knew mum and dad and the breeder is a friend and we chose him to be my agility dog so he is driven and brave. He is toilet trained in a week we can do sit/down. Settled to his crate brilliantly I'm so pleased with him only issue is his really sharp teeth!!


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## Karran (5 August 2015)

I have a working Cocker - I was reluctant to begin with - I live in London and work fulltime and my partner works away a lot so worried that we'd struggle to keep her amused but I adore her to bits.
She is up at the yard with me 3 times a week, and has three walks a day for about half an hour each off lead in the "little" park during the week and at the weekends we go to the woods or the "big" park for an hour or so on top of that.
She came to me at end of Feb and had no training at all, begged for food, clambered on sofas, chewed shoes, nearly ripped my arm out with her pulling on the lead but she's amazingly intelligent and that's all stopped now, we walk nicely on a lead 90% of the time, she knows sit, stay, down, roll over, paw, to spin on the spot and has a little cone that she hits with her paw as "target" practise. 
We're currently learning how to bow and to do distance sits. 
She's the most vocal dog i've ever met, not barking but whining, squeaking and grumbling.
She's good with horses and adores children she's met in the park (awful with chickens though).

She's a pain at the moment as has been spayed last Monday and confined to the house and tbh we're struggling with that a bit, she is going a little stir-crazy so really looking forward to getting the all clear for a good run about.

Downsides to her is that she is very clingy, likes to be as close as possible to me, needs endless amusements either with her bone or her toys but as long as she's in the same room will play with them happily. She's almost too smart for me and figures out ways to defeat my attempts at having afternoon naps on a regular basis.

But Quagga sums her up perfectly! She's a happy, busy little dog and i'd def look into replacing her with the same breed/type when the time comes.


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## Patchworkpony (5 August 2015)

H_A_C said:



			This is my 9 week old pup Beau I knew mum and dad and the breeder is a friend and we chose him to be my agility dog so he is driven and brave. He is toilet trained in a week we can do sit/down. Settled to his crate brilliantly I'm so pleased with him only issue is his really sharp teeth!!








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SO beautiful and so good - how inspiring.


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## Patchworkpony (5 August 2015)

Karran said:



			I have a working Cocker - I was reluctant to begin with - I live in London and work fulltime and my partner works away a lot so worried that we'd struggle to keep her amused but I adore her to bits.
She is up at the yard with me 3 times a week, and has three walks a day for about half an hour each off lead in the "little" park during the week and at the weekends we go to the woods or the "big" park for an hour or so on top of that.
She came to me at end of Feb and had no training at all, begged for food, clambered on sofas, chewed shoes, nearly ripped my arm out with her pulling on the lead but she's amazingly intelligent and that's all stopped now, we walk nicely on a lead 90% of the time, she knows sit, stay, down, roll over, paw, to spin on the spot and has a little cone that she hits with her paw as "target" practise. 
We're currently learning how to bow and to do distance sits. 
She's the most vocal dog i've ever met, not barking but whining, squeaking and grumbling.
She's good with horses and adores children she's met in the park (awful with chickens though).

She's a pain at the moment as has been spayed last Monday and confined to the house and tbh we're struggling with that a bit, she is going a little stir-crazy so really looking forward to getting the all clear for a good run about.

Downsides to her is that she is very clingy, likes to be as close as possible to me, needs endless amusements either with her bone or her toys but as long as she's in the same room will play with them happily. She's almost too smart for me and figures out ways to defeat my attempts at having afternoon naps on a regular basis.

But Quagga sums her up perfectly! She's a happy, busy little dog and i'd def look into replacing her with the same breed/type when the time comes.
		
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She sounds lovely - how old was she when you got her?


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## Karran (5 August 2015)

Patchworkpony said:



			She sounds lovely - how old was she when you got her?
		
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she was 11 months old - friend of a friend's marriage broke up and neither wanted the responsibility of her full time.
I made a little thread about her here last Monday to keep me from fretting while she had the op. http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/foru...138-Mrs-Spaniel-update-(pic-and-vid-OVERLOAD)


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## Patchworkpony (6 August 2015)

Karran said:



			she was 11 months old - friend of a friend's marriage broke up and neither wanted the responsibility of her full time.
I made a little thread about her here last Monday to keep me from fretting while she had the op. http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/foru...138-Mrs-Spaniel-update-(pic-and-vid-OVERLOAD)

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 I SO love your spaniel - she's the colour I had in mind. She's very lucky someone as caring as you took her in.


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## Alec Swan (6 August 2015)

Patchworkpony said:



			&#8230;&#8230;.. So how does one find the right one because most breeders will tell you what you want to hear.
		
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I'm not sure.  I suspect that we mostly learn from our mistakes,  which I understand is a path that you'd rather not walk!  There are certainly those Cockers which are amenable,  but how much of that is to do with the parental influence and how much from their early treatment by humans,  is a rather subjective matter!

I still think that if you were to look for a dog which already has its mind made up,  and as one which wants to serve you,  then that would be the better way forwards.  Getting in to the minds of the already self willed and having them comply,  calls for a degree of focus and effort.  Considering your previous comments,  I'd suggest that if a truly amenable example of the breed,  as an adult can't be found,  then it may be an idea to consider another breed!  Have you consider the Charles as a possible companion,  in what ever form?  I've mostly found them to be quite delightful.  Not perhaps what we'd call a 'spaniel' but none the less,  appealing little dogs!

Alec.


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## ester (6 August 2015)

My friend acquired a pup about 9 months ago, she's been pretty fab all round really. She goes out on the tractor with her partner all day (and occasionally night) and is lorry/eventing/yard/house dog the rest of the time. Not sure whether she stops if she is stalking a pigeon yet . She has been a damn site easier to have around than the jack russell who arrived at the same time (different family, same stable yard).


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## Patchworkpony (6 August 2015)

Alec Swan said:



			I'm not sure.  I suspect that we mostly learn from our mistakes,  which I understand is a path that you'd rather not walk!  There are certainly those Cockers which are amenable,  but how much of that is to do with the parental influence and how much from their early treatment by humans,  is a rather subjective matter!

I still think that if you were to look for a dog which already has its mind made up,  and as one which wants to serve you,  then that would be the better way forwards.  Getting in to the minds of the already self willed and having them comply,  calls for a degree of focus and effort.  Considering your previous comments,  I'd suggest that if a truly amenable example of the breed,  as an adult can't be found,  then it may be an idea to consider another breed!  Have you consider the Charles as a possible companion,  in what ever form?  I've mostly found them to be quite delightful.  Not perhaps what we'd call a 'spaniel' but none the less,  appealing little dogs!

Alec.
		
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Yes - I did want a KCC and was all set to buy one but they have SO many health problems and in fact my vet (who advised against them) said they pay for her holiday every year. The good breeders have a year's waiting list and at my age that is far too long. Also people do say they have a stubborn streak and don't want to do too much work. It is such a minefield buying a dog. Now native ponies I know my onions so maybe I should just get a miniature and throw sticks for it!


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## RunToEarth (6 August 2015)

Chiffy said:



			Oh Nicnac, why are you always so rude about flatcoats? I have had them for 35 years and every one has been brilliant and easy to train. Full of fun,enthusiasm and willingness to please. 
n my experience at gundog classes alot easier and less hyper than any spaniel.
Sorry, I dont often get on my high horse, but you touched a nerve there about my favourite breed!
		
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I had a flatcoat, it was wonderful at chewing through hydraulic brake lines on the tractors and embarrassing me on shoot days, so I agree with Nicnac, although they are a lovely looking dog.  

I've had springers and cockers, and the cockers were always harder work, but on a day when they worked well for me, they gave me a lot more sense of achievement than the springers. Spaniels are all different though, I kept a pup from our springer's litter because she was so placid and laid back. I ended up with a neurotic, vibrating, dizzy little bitch - she works incredibly well but does just "switch off" sometimes and it infuriates me. 

So... my conclusion is get a golden retriever. All those painful days, weeks, months of spaniel training that I endured, no one told me about golden retrievers. I can't vouch for her working credentials as she's still young, but in terms of trainability and nature, she is just so much easier than any spaniel I've ever met.


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## Chiffy (6 August 2015)

RTE not one of my flatcoats has ever chewed anything, have I been lucky or you unlucky?!
I do not go shooting but they have excelled at Field Trials, Obedience and Agility. I did consider Goldens when first wanting a retriever, they are lovely but heavier in build and coat and more ponderous in their work ( just my opinion)
It's lucky we all like different breeds so that there is plenty of diversity to suit us all. I rarely criticize any breed as everyone has different priorities.


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## RunToEarth (6 August 2015)

Chiffy said:



			RTE not one of my flatcoats has ever chewed anything, have I been lucky or you unlucky?!
I do not go shooting but they have excelled at Field Trials, Obedience and Agility. I did consider Goldens when first wanting a retriever, they are lovely but heavier in build and coat and more ponderous in their work ( just my opinion)
It's lucky we all like different breeds so that there is plenty of diversity to suit us all. I rarely criticize any breed as everyone has different priorities.
		
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I think Nicnac's post was tongue in cheek rather than a criticism of the breed. Personally I think it is better for the breed standard that flatcoats haven't become as popular as goldens - the popularity has caused the breed to be full of health and temperament problems which makes finding a decent breeder more painstaking than flatcoats. 

We were unlucky, despite buying from well health tested parents she developed cataracts which I think contributed heavily to the problems with her behaviour as it wasn't picked up immediately. My comment wasn't really a dig at the breed, if I weren't such a sucker for little yellow hairs everywhere I would consider another flat coat.


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## Thistle (6 August 2015)

RTE, could you let me have details of your pups breeder please. I have been considering a working goldie as next dog, probably a year or two away.


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## RunToEarth (6 August 2015)

Thistle said:



			RTE, could you let me have details of your pups breeder please. I have been considering a working goldie as next dog, probably a year or two away.
		
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Hi Thistle. When I spoke to her a few weeks ago she didn't think she would be breeding any more litters, she is focussing on gundog training. I have already researched in depth (and put my name on a long list!) for my next working goldie. I was questioning my decision having only seen one of their bitches in the flesh however after seeing some of the breeder's progeny working at the Gamefair I am won over completely - I will PM you the info.


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## Alec Swan (6 August 2015)

Just one word of caution;  When we see beautifully behaved working dogs it should be born in mind that the larger part of their amenable behaviour is because of their upbringing and training,  just as much as their breeding,  and no matter how well bred,  in careless hands,  all work-bred dogs can become a liability.

Alec.


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## RunToEarth (6 August 2015)

Alec Swan said:



			Just one word of caution;  When we see beautifully behaved working dogs it should be born in mind that the larger part of their amenable behaviour is because of their upbringing and training,  just as much as their breeding,  and no matter how well bred,  in careless hands,  all work-bred dogs can become a liability.

Alec.
		
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I agree. I tend to take a view that the working dogs I see at CLA are akin to the workers at RIHS - the product of blood, sweat and tears. I just think it is important for people to know that the differences in training between breeds is sometimes huge. I have done relatively little in the way of training the retriever compared to the hours I put in with the spaniels, to achieve the same result. Training dogs properly is actually very hard work!


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## Patchworkpony (6 August 2015)

RunToEarth said:



			Training dogs properly is actually very hard work!
		
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So is training independent natured, sometimes wilful, native ponies. Getting a reliable safe driving pony for instance doesn't just happen it takes years of very slow steady training, where you build a bond of complete trust, so I would imagine it would be the same with an intelligent, spirited dog.


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## Alec Swan (6 August 2015)

Pwp,  not too sure about horses and if it applies,  but with dogs,  it's largely a matter of the level of temptation that we place in front of them and at what stage in their training.  The dog which will sit quietly at a peg and which we *KNOW* is guaranteed riot proof,  generally wanders off,  when sent,  and picks a bird or two.  The dog which is sitting there twitching and is likely to riot,  does everything at 90mph and is a bit of a demon.  I prefer the dog which I daren't take my eye off!  Getting inside their heads and maintaining that 'balance' is the trick,  which neatly takes us back to cockers! 

With say Gundogs,  the Field Trial champion,  regardless of breed,  rarely lasts in the Trial Field much after the age of 4 or 5.  They become unmanageable!  The Advanced 3 day event horse will maintain a level which will endure until it starts to slow down through age,  or it's infirm.

Alec.


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## Clodagh (6 August 2015)

RtE, a friend of mine walks guide dog pups, which are working bred types, and she said the goldies are so much easier than the labs, quicker to learn and more amenable.
I do like working goldies but will never be allowed to have one - my OH is convinced every townie that moves to the countryside gets a goldie to show they have arrived. I think he means the fat white ones though. Yours is a stunner.


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## Patchworkpony (6 August 2015)

Alec Swan said:



			Pwp,  not too sure about horses and if it applies,  but with dogs,  it's largely a matter of the level of temptation that we place in front of them and at what stage in their training.  The dog which will sit quietly at a peg and which we *KNOW* is guaranteed riot proof,  generally wanders off,  when sent,  and picks a bird or two.  The dog which is sitting there twitching and is likely to riot,  does everything at 90mph and is a bit of a demon.  I prefer the dog which I daren't take my eye off!  Getting inside their heads and maintaining that 'balance' is the trick,  which neatly takes us back to cockers! 

With say Gundogs,  the Field Trial champion,  regardless of breed,  rarely lasts in the Trial Field much after the age of 4 or 5.  They become unmanageable!  The Advanced 3 day event horse will maintain a level which will endure until it starts to slow down through age,  or it's infirm.

Alec.
		
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This is all so interesting. I never really realised quite how fine a balance you need to keep with cocker spaniels. The problem I have is they are my favourite breed - I can't stand yappy little dogs which are probably more suitable for the age I am now. Maybe it is best not to have a spaniel rather than risk ruining it. They do seem quite wilful and certainly full of masses of energy.


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## Karran (6 August 2015)

Its interesting to see Alec's view on Cockers compared to those who have them as pets. Obviously its a completely different way of life to how my dog is kept and i won't deny that she's not the easiest dog in the world but maybe i've just been quite lucky with her temperament.
She does do the 'sod off' look really well but i wouldn't consider her to be willful at all.
I had no idea that they were viewed quite so strongly compared to Springers!


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## RunToEarth (6 August 2015)

Alec Swan said:



			With say Gundogs,  the Field Trial champion,  regardless of breed,  rarely lasts in the Trial Field much after the age of 4 or 5.  They become unmanageable!  The Advanced 3 day event horse will maintain a level which will endure until it starts to slow down through age,  or it's infirm.

Alec.
		
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Oh yes! One of my best friend's has an ex FT champ. Fantastic but my god she's sharp. A bit like that hedge machine coloured I had who was awesome but you never quite knew when it was about to blow up and take half the field out sideways after it had been asked to stand for too long. She is the most fantastic dog I've ever seen working, she's marked everything in front of her and those birds are back at your feet before she's set off! Do you still work them? 



Clodagh said:



			RtE, a friend of mine walks guide dog pups, which are working bred types, and she said the goldies are so much easier than the labs, quicker to learn and more amenable.
I do like working goldies but will never be allowed to have one - my OH is convinced every townie that moves to the countryside gets a goldie to show they have arrived. I think he means the fat white ones though. Yours is a stunner.
		
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I've never had a lab so I can't compare her, she seems very bright and her mouth is like butter. 

I always associated goldens with old people, really white ones. Apparently the showing lines are lighter with even longer (!) coats. 

The problem I have (which I never thought of until a few weeks ago) is that she is far too light for a shooting day, so I need to get her used to a camo neoprene!!


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## Clodagh (6 August 2015)

I was speaking to our combine driver tonight, he was admiring my labs (of course) and said he used to have labs but now had cockers. He said labs got boring after a while whereas a cocker never bored anyone, his are neurotic (his words) and hard work, but you always know you are alive with them!


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## blackcob (6 August 2015)

Karran said:



			Its interesting to see Alec's view on Cockers compared to those who have them as pets. Obviously its a completely different way of life to how my dog is kept and i won't deny that she's not the easiest dog in the world but maybe i've just been quite lucky with her temperament.
		
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I was about to comment similarly, the only cocker of my close acquaintance is a lazy, entirely predictable and sweet little dog who would rather be snoring and farting on the sofa than doing a day's work. He is show bred though and has more dangly ears and feather than he has brains. Not my usual sort but I must concede that he's a brilliant pet dog.


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## suffolkmare (7 August 2015)

Been reading with interest as I (reluctantly) agreed on a wcs puppy. She is not docked as parents never worked with gun, and is, at 4 months still fairly small (mum was small). She has proved to be intelligent, fast, loving, sensitive, and occasionally manic. BUT today, for various reasons we haven't been able to take her out for a walk or run, so just play in the garden and practice a little basic training... she has mostly slept and is currently zonked at my feet as usual of an evening. Will she be extra manic tomorrow?? I know it will be fun finding out as fun is definitely something they bring in abundance!


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## Jola (14 August 2015)

suffolkmare said:



			Been reading with interest as I (reluctantly) agreed on a wcs puppy. She is not docked as parents never worked with gun, and is, at 4 months still fairly small (mum was small). She has proved to be intelligent, fast, loving, sensitive, and occasionally manic. BUT today, for various reasons we haven't been able to take her out for a walk or run, so just play in the garden and practice a little basic training... she has mostly slept and is currently zonked at my feet as usual of an evening. Will she be extra manic tomorrow?? I know it will be fun finding out as fun is definitely something they bring in abundance!
		
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Mine is like this. Sleeps for England! Goes mad on a walk but isn't fussed if he can't get one for any reason. Very rare occasion though since we also have a springer who needs permanent entertainment


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