# Losing confidence and need help!!



## Gemz66 (6 January 2019)

Hiya

Iâ€™m hoping to get some advise because I am slowly losing my confidence and unsure what to do 

I have brought my first pony after having children and finally being in a position to, previously had part loans and helped friends out in exchange for riding along with taking lessons, he is a welsh section D 14.2 gelding, I knew he had been out of work for a year or so but had previously done dressage, beach rides, hacked alone etc and was told he was just needing to be brought back into work, he has stayed at his field (I have taken it over along with him from previous owner) so he is still with the herd he has always known and the only real change is ownership. Previous owner didnâ€™t do much with him during the time she had him really i have since found out, he was more of a field ornament imo.

The first time I ever tried to get him out of the field for a groom he played me up bucking and rearing and bolting back down the lane to the field, ended up next time taking him up with his field mate and he was a lot better, eventually built up to getting out for a ride but I have never felt â€˜safeâ€™ on him, recently when we take him into the paddock to be tacked up he will stand for a little while and then becomes impatient pawing the ground, he breaks away and proceeds to charge around the paddock throwing bucks and rearing/tossing his head, when heâ€™s calmed down I will re-tie him on and carry on tacking him up so he knows it wonâ€™t wash (heart in mouth whole time) I get on and he will be â€˜okâ€™ he is very stubborn and not happy going certain routes, today I felt very uncomfortable with his behaviour so got off him whilst out, I would rather walk him from the ground than risk injury, one of the girls from our yard who is a lot braver than me wanted to get on and push him through it, he was ok for about a mile, when we came to the main road (usually fine on this road) he started to play up, I was on her horse, I told her to get down but before she had a chance he started rearing and bucking and threw her off before charging down the main road at full speed (there was 4 of us out) I jumped straight down and handed the reins to her and went after mine, I thought he was going to run back to our field which was near but he must of thought oh shit Iâ€™m on my own and came charging back to us and I  managed to steady him and grab his reins, my husband was lead reining our daughter so I took over that and he walked my horse back, the whole time he was biting at my husband and kicking out at him (he is bitey) when we got into the paddock he continued throwing bucks and being a general knob and it took 3 of us to safely return him to the field

Dentist has been out, teeth are fine, I have a saddle fitter coming to check his back and all tack (although all the same as he had before) and I am going to cut his feed back but I am at a loss what to do if his tack is ok, He is starting to really scare me and Iâ€™m losing my confidence big time, I know the people who had him from foal so messaged them tonight, she said he was grumpy and tbh a bit to much horse for her and this is why she sold him on, previous owner swears heâ€™s never done anything like that before and that it must be his tack....

I just want a nice horse I can go for a safe plod on and have found myself owning a horse that scares me and one I donâ€™t trust, he tries to bite a lot and head barge me out of the way, his manners are terrible and when I try to do ground work with him he puts on the same show as he does when we tack up to go out, I donâ€™t want to give up on him but donâ€™t know what to do ðŸ˜©ðŸ˜©ðŸ˜©ðŸ˜©


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## YorksG (7 January 2019)

Why is he been given hard feed and what feed are you giving him? I would stop giving him anything other than forage and get his saddle checked, if he has not been worked and given hard feed he may well have changed shape.


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## Gemz66 (7 January 2019)

YorksG said:



			Why is he been given hard feed and what feed are you giving him? I would stop giving him anything other than forage and get his saddle checked, if he has not been worked and given hard feed he may well have changed shape.
		
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I had been sticking to what the previous owner advised to give him over winter but have looked into it this evening and think too much feed could be playing a big part in all this, heâ€™s had calm and condition with some nuts and chaff but is only in light work, Iâ€™m stripping him right back to just a small offering of nuts with his supplements (garlic/mint) and if heâ€™s lucky some carrots, right now the way I feel he can poke the carrots up his bum ðŸ˜¬ðŸ˜† only joking but he is going to be having bare minimum, saddle fitter is coming this week so Iâ€™m really hoping these 2 things will help ðŸ™


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## Shay (7 January 2019)

You might benefit from some professional help too. Sec D's are clever and often stubborn creatures.  he's had the life of reily living in a field and now some human wants him to come out and do work?  Absolutely tack / back  / teeth - and I bet his tack does need re-fitting.  But a lot of the behaviour sounds more temprement than pain.  An Idolo soft tie can help with the pulling back when tied - they can't get way before you can stop them so it might make that bit safer. But a calm professional on the ground to establish safe boundaries will help with your confidence.


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## Gemz66 (7 January 2019)

Shay said:



			You might benefit from some professional help too. Sec D's are clever and often stubborn creatures.  he's had the life of reily living in a field and now some human wants him to come out and do work?  Absolutely tack / back  / teeth - and I bet his tack does need re-fitting.  But a lot of the behaviour sounds more temprement than pain.  An Idolo soft tie can help with the pulling back when tied - they can't get way before you can stop them so it might make that bit safer. But a calm professional on the ground to establish safe boundaries will help with your confidence.
		
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Thanks for your reply, I think you may be right, I donâ€™t think the feed has helped but I have had him since March 2018 and through summer he was just on hay and was still the same, it has got worse but heâ€™s always been like it, he is very temperamental and grumpy, the couple who had him from foal said the Gwenllan side of his breeding was very hot, Iâ€™m worried Iâ€™ve taken on more than I can chew ðŸ˜©ðŸ˜”


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## Gemz66 (7 January 2019)

Shay said:



			You might benefit from some professional help too. Sec D's are clever and often stubborn creatures.  he's had the life of reily living in a field and now some human wants him to come out and do work?  Absolutely tack / back  / teeth - and I bet his tack does need re-fitting.  But a lot of the behaviour sounds more temprement than pain.  An Idolo soft tie can help with the pulling back when tied - they can't get way before you can stop them so it might make that bit safer. But a calm professional on the ground to establish safe boundaries will help with your confidence.
		
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Will also look into the idolo tie ðŸ‘Œ


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## Gemz66 (7 January 2019)

Gemz66 said:



			Will also look into the idolo tie ðŸ‘Œ
		
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Have just ordered one ðŸ‘Œ


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## J_sarahd (7 January 2019)

It sounds basic, but I found with my old Welsh sec D that doing groundwork was priceless. Make him respect you. Welshies can be extremely stubborn and bolshy if theyâ€™re not put in their place. I once spent a good 20 minutes getting my old welshie to just stand at the mounting block respectfully and not dance around. Just work slowly and try and develop a relationship with him. 

I do believe though that tack and feed will be contributing. Again, my old welshie calmed down slightly when he got a better fitting saddle and got off calm and condition!


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## be positive (7 January 2019)

Gemz66 said:



			I had been sticking to what the previous owner advised to give him over winter but have looked into it this evening and think too much feed could be playing a big part in all this, heâ€™s had calm and condition with some nuts and chaff but is only in light work, Iâ€™m stripping him right back to just a small offering of nuts with his supplements (garlic/mint) and if heâ€™s lucky some carrots, right now the way I feel he can poke the carrots up his bum ðŸ˜¬ðŸ˜† only joking but he is going to be having bare minimum, saddle fitter is coming this week so Iâ€™m really hoping these 2 things will help ðŸ™
		
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Why is he on garlic and mint, they are not doing anything for him and the garlic may be contributing to his grumpiness if it is upsetting his tummy which is can do, cut out all his feed and see if that helps, so many issues are caused by overfeeding and or feeding the wrong things.


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## Leah3horses (7 January 2019)

Sorry to hear about your situation. He sounds quite a troubled horse, even in as much as he has not had consistent calm education, or even any education at all for some time. You are absolutely right to get off and walk, always put your own safety first. In fact, I wouldn't even be thinking of trying to ride this horse, and I've rescued and rehabilitated feral /dangerous horses for 30 years. He is clearly displaying unsafe behaviour, and the root issues need to be thoroughly explored and all his behaviour systematically counter conditioned from the ground, for his sake and yours. 


Has he had a recent head to tail vet check? Things like his sight being checked,  a full check up to rule out any pain related issues and a blood profile would be the first things I would do ( I was a Vet Nurse for 23 years and behavioural problems can tend to be evidence of veterinary issues that are far from obvious, sadly). If he gets the all clear then he is simply behaving as his temperament and previous experiences, or rather lack of them, denotes. That doesn't mean things can't improve beyond recognition, but it will take months of daily, consistent Positive Reinforcement Training from a very experienced trainer to help him be able to learn how to behave safely around humans. 

I , and all Science Based Equine Behaviourists and Trainers don't use force with any horses...we don't need to show them who is boss/chase them round in circles with lunge whips/use tack/ or any of the old fashioned methods. Old fashioned methods do work, but using punishment , in the unthinking ways most do, even in small ways,means horses comply through low level fear when Positive Reinforcement Trainers help them to co operate willingly. This isn't my opinion, it's proven scientific research.

I strongly encourage you to research Positive Reinforcement , there is a book called Humane, Science Based Horse Training by Alize Veillard Muckenstrum that is a good introduction to it, also anything by Hertha James or Shawna Korrasch will help you understand how horses actually learn. 

However, as much as all horse people should learn how horses actually learn, and be able to help horses using Positive Reinforcement, this horse is not advisable for a novice to try to work with without Qualified Behaviourist help. He is over threshold in his behaviour even when you try to take him from his field ...this is an obvious symptom of separation anxiety at the very least. He may have a 'hot' temperament, but none of this is his fault, he is simply being a horse in the environment he's in that the humans before you have provided. He's been labelled grumpy, temperamental and hot, no wonder he's behaving exactly like that. None of this is your fault, although it's common for novices to find themselves overhorsed due to lack of experience, you've done the right thing in keeping yourself safe and realising you're not safe around him. I really feel sorry for him, I've seen so many horses like this simply due to people, even people who have been around horses a long time, not understanding scientifically how horses learn and horses become extremely reactive when they have not been provided with humane, force free comprehensive foundations of what humans expect from them.

Depending where you are geographically, there are many excellent Trainers who can help you and this horse start from scratch and start to see a much happier , much nicer to be around horse within days.....ridden work can take some time but the main thing hopefully is to have a safe, happy horse you can develop a fantastic relationship with...the only other humane option would be to try to place him with experienced Positive Reinforcement R+ rehabilitator or rescue.  Pm me if you would like any more information, please stay safe.


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## Smogul (8 January 2019)

Gemz66 said:



			I knew he had been out of work for a year or so
		
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Sorry but this would have raised massive warning flags for me. My advice would have been walk away and it is still is


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## Gemz66 (9 January 2019)

be positive said:



			Why is he on garlic and mint, they are not doing anything for him and the garlic may be contributing to his grumpiness if it is upsetting his tummy which is can do, cut out all his feed and see if that helps, so many issues are caused by overfeeding and or feeding the wrong things.
		
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Thank you, Iâ€™ve cut it all out and just giving him a scoops of nuts


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## Gemz66 (9 January 2019)

Smogul said:



			Sorry but this would have raised massive warning flags for me. My advice would have been walk away and it is still is
		
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The way he was â€˜soldâ€™ was as if he had been out of work through owners choice and just needed bringing back into work and getting him back out and regularly riding, I donâ€™t feel I can walk away, I feel I need to do my best by him and give him a shot, donâ€™t get me wrong if it doesnâ€™t work out I will have to consider we are not right for each other but I canâ€™t just wash my hands straight away Iâ€™d rather try and work to fix it first, saddle fitter out tomorrow and I have a trainer (gone for a male purposely) out on Friday.

Heâ€™s 10 so hopefully heâ€™s got that same time left in him yet, I signed up with the thought I would have him forever so Iâ€™m thinking even if it takes 1-2 years to mend this and work together to form a good relationship it would be worth it for the 8-9 good ones we could have riding together, heâ€™s previously done dressage and beach riding so I know he has it in him heâ€™s just lost himself and someone needs to help him find it and invest the time and energy, I want to try but safety will be my main priority.


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## meleeka (9 January 2019)

Heâ€™s been in the field for a year and not been asked to leave his mates in all that time so Iâ€™m sure thereâ€™s an issue with separation anxiety there. Heâ€™s also learnt that he can use his strength to his advantage, so partly brattish behaviour and partly insecurity. He also probably very unfit so finding ridden work more difficult than he did previously.  You are doing the right things, getting him checked physically and employing the services of a trainer. Please dont entertain anyone who wants to use violence. A horse like this will just meet fire with fire and in my experience you canâ€™t bully a Welsh. 

I would take the pressure off yourself and donâ€™t rush to ride him. Getting him happy to come out of the field seems a reasonable goal at the moment. Good luck and do update us.


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## Pearlsasinger (9 January 2019)

Gemz66 said:



			I had been sticking to what the previous owner advised to give him over winter but have looked into it this evening and think too much feed could be playing a big part in all this, heâ€™s had calm and condition with some nuts and chaff but is only in light work, Iâ€™m stripping him right back to just a small offering of nuts with his supplements (garlic/mint) and if heâ€™s lucky some carrots, right now the way I feel he can poke the carrots up his bum ðŸ˜¬ðŸ˜† only joking but he is going to be having bare minimum, saddle fitter is coming this week so Iâ€™m really hoping these 2 things will help ðŸ™
		
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Cut out the garlic, as that can upset the gut flora and cause ulcers and don't give carrots, as they can be heating.  that might sound like overkill but you really do need to strip this horse's feed right back to basics. 
As above, also cut back your expectations of what you expect him to do at this stage.  He can't be fit , so work on getting him out of the field, give a very small (grassnuts) feed and straight back building up in small steps to doing more with him being out of the field for longer.  You will get there but it takes time.


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## Smogul (10 January 2019)

Gemz66 said:



			The way he was â€˜soldâ€™ was as if he had been out of work through owners choice and just needed bringing back into work and getting him back out and regularly riding, I donâ€™t feel I can walk away, I feel I need to do my best by him and give him a shot, donâ€™t get me wrong if it doesnâ€™t work out I will have to consider we are not right for each other but I canâ€™t just wash my hands straight away Iâ€™d rather try and work to fix it first, saddle fitter out tomorrow and I have a trainer (gone for a male purposely) out on Friday.

Heâ€™s 10 so hopefully heâ€™s got that same time left in him yet, I signed up with the thought I would have him forever so Iâ€™m thinking even if it takes 1-2 years to mend this and work together to form a good relationship it would be worth it for the 8-9 good ones we could have riding together, heâ€™s previously done dressage and beach riding so I know he has it in him heâ€™s just lost himself and someone needs to help him find it and invest the time and energy, I want to try but safety will be my main priority.
		
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You said in your original post that you wanted a nice safe plod and you have got something that scares you. You also said that a previous owner sold him as he was a grumpy handful, if I read it correctly. You could spend two heartbreaking dangerous years on something that is never what you want. You didn't cause his problems and you don't have to sort them!

Nice safe plods rarely get left in a field doing nothing for a year which is why this would have made me suspicious. Did you ride him or see him being ridden before you bought him? Was he vetted?


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## oldie48 (10 January 2019)

"I just want a nice horse I can go for a safe plod on and have found myself owning a horse that scares me and one I donâ€™t trust, he tries to bite a lot and head barge me out of the way, his manners are terrible and when I try to do ground work with him he puts on the same show as he does when we tack up to go out, I donâ€™t want to give up on him but donâ€™t know what to do ðŸ˜©ðŸ˜©ðŸ˜©ðŸ˜©"
Sometimes things don't work out and the brave and sensible thing is to find a way out and move on. It takes courage but you have children and tbh I think your safety is the most important thing to consider. Sell him on, at a loss, probably, to someone who has the experience to sort him out and find a nice safe horse to enjoy.






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## Smogul (12 January 2019)

Totally agree with Oldie48. Also, you will have to make sure that your daughter is never near this horse as it could kill her. This is probably not the relaxing family hobby your had in mind.


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## Cortez (12 January 2019)

Oh dear, you are having a hard time of it aren't you? Welcome to the world of the unsuitable horse. While there are things that you can do - cut out ALL hard feed for a start, and get an experienced person (i.e. a professional, and not a fluffy one at that) to help you - I would agree with Oldie that you are best to sell this horse and look for one suitable for a novice.


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## Shay (12 January 2019)

OP - my heart is breaking for you as I read this.  The posters are absolutely right I'm afraid - you would be better to walk away.  But I do absolutely accept that it isn't as easy as that and sometimes that advice, especially if a bit blunt, is really hard to hear.  You do need to walk your own path with this lad - but just hold in mind that it is absolutely OK to call time.  Horses are expensive and potentially dangerous.  It costs just as much to keep a good one as a difficult one.  Try not to let your heart rule your head any more than you have to.  Calling time doesn't mean you are a bad person, or an inexperienced person or anything negative.  It means you have the strength and courage to recognize that what you had wanted is not going to happen and to take steps to mke it right.  Particularly for your daughter.  You do her no good if you are injured (Says the mother who broke her back in a fall when her daughter was 3..)


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## JFTDWS (12 January 2019)

Gemz66 said:



			Thank you, Iâ€™ve cut it all out and just giving him a scoops of nuts
		
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Why?  Seriously, why on earth would you give this horse a scoop of nuts when it's in next to no work, and is an unmanageable devil already?



Cortez said:



			Oh dear, you are having a hard time of it aren't you? Welcome to the world of the unsuitable horse. While there are things that you can do - cut out ALL hard feed for a start, and get an experienced person (i.e. a professional, and not a fluffy one at that) to help you - I would agree with Oldie that you are best to sell this horse and look for one suitable for a novice.
		
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This.  You say you could work at your "relationship" for 1 or 2 years and still have lots of years left to have a good time with the horse - but equally this horse could seriously injure you (or worse, your daughter) in that same period.  If you don't have the skillset to deal with a horse's behaviour, you NEED to get in professional help - that is the best, and kindest thing you can do for the horse.  Get a good, sensible (not violent, not overly soft) professional to come in and assess the horse's behaviour.  Seriously consider selling - via a professional, or as a cheap project (with full disclosure of his issues) - if the professional who assesses the horse doesn't think the issues can be fixed easily and quickly.


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## Pearlsasinger (12 January 2019)

Stop the nuts, the pony really doesn't need them and you have no idea what the constituents are.

As others say, if you don't see a significant improvement by cutting out feed (and it can happen, I've seen it), you need to get sensible professional help.  take the advice of the professional and if they think you should sell on , do.  This doesn't sound like the horse you thought you bought.


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## Amymay (12 January 2019)

Did you ride him prior to buying?
Do you have the option of moving to a livery yard where you can get some help and support and also the use of a school?

Was he sold as being good in traffic?


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## tristar (12 January 2019)

cut out all hard food,, lunge every morning, loose lunge and jump the afternoon then ride for at least an hour five days a week,    but only in the arena, walk out in hand if you feel he can do so safely, 

too easy a life, not enough work, but be kind when you do ride him, and not too demanding, you can school in walk,  but firm, i find a lot welshy ponies  are errr challenging.

have you checked the teeth and saddle, if not do, then get on and give him something to think about immediately and mean it, do not drift around thinking what he might do, get on and think what you want him to do and ride the  school movements.


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## Gemz66 (14 January 2019)

Thank you everyone for your replies, I had the saddle fitter out who found no problems with tack but did find some stiffness in his back, she suggested his behaviour being so extreme could be pain related and advised to get a physio she knows out to access, she came today and it is looking likely he has KS and is in pain, next stop vets for xrays....thank god for insurance, not feeling great today at all ðŸ˜­


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## Gemz66 (14 January 2019)

Smogul said:



			You said in your original post that you wanted a nice safe plod and you have got something that scares you. You also said that a previous owner sold him as he was a grumpy handful, if I read it correctly. You could spend two heartbreaking dangerous years on something that is never what you want. You didn't cause his problems and you don't have to sort them!

Nice safe plods rarely get left in a field doing nothing for a year which is why this would have made me suspicious. Did you ride him or see him being ridden before you bought him? Was he vetted?
		
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Previous owner developed arthritis and was unable to ride him due to her own poor health, she put him out on full loan as she had to give up horse


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## Gemz66 (14 January 2019)

After today Iâ€™m glad I cancelled the trainer Friday (decided to until health checks done as didnâ€™t want to push him to work if potentially pain related)


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## ycbm (14 January 2019)

Gemz66 said:



			Thank you everyone for your replies, I had the saddle fitter out who found no problems with tack but did find some stiffness in his back, she suggested his behaviour being so extreme could be pain related and advised to get a physio she knows out to access, she came today and it is looking likely he has KS and is in pain, next stop vets for xrays....thank god for insurance, not feeling great today at all ðŸ˜­
		
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Please don't run up a big bill in the expectation that the insurance will pay out. It is very likely from the history that the insurance company will refuse to pay on the grounds that the horse had a pre existing condition when you bought him.


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## Gemz66 (14 January 2019)

ycbm said:



			Please don't run up a big bill in the expectation that the insurance will pay out. It is very likely from the history that the insurance company will refuse to pay on the grounds that the horse had a pre existing condition when you bought him.
		
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Oh god do you think? Iâ€™m going to have to call them to find out where I stand, what a mess ðŸ˜­ðŸ˜­


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## Gemz66 (14 January 2019)

Iâ€™m so gutted, the vet came out to do his jabs in October a month before I paid for him and he said he seemed in good health so I didnâ€™t bother getting him fully vetted prior to purchase, I wish Iâ€™d known this physio beforehand I would have got her out, the saddler did say she was extremely good and could pick up things Vetâ€™s didnâ€™t which is why I went for her first before a vet check with all this going on but still kicking myself!!


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## Landcruiser (14 January 2019)

I'm surprised you managed to insure him without a vetting first. I've always been asked for a copy of the vet report. 

I feel your pain OP. 10+ years ago, with my first horse (SO exciting!!!!) I bought equally unwisely but with different problems. It's a very hard (and expensive) mistake that you won't make again.....good luck x


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## Gemz66 (14 January 2019)

Landcruiser said:



			I'm surprised you managed to insure him without a vetting first. I've always been asked for a copy of the vet report.

I feel your pain OP. 10+ years ago, with my first horse (SO exciting!!!!) I bought equally unwisely but with different problems. It's a very hard (and expensive) mistake that you won't make again.....good luck x
		
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It was a question that was asked but just had a yes/no option, and age/cost dependant as to whether they required x-rays, Its a fairly new policy I took out in December so part of me thinks theyâ€™ll try their hardest to get out of it, Iâ€™ll find out where I stand and can only go from there, hopefully its not advanced to much, I know thereâ€™s injections and treatments he can have and regular daily exercise to help strengthen his back etc so we will see, its not what I signed up for but can only play the cards Iâ€™ve been dealt....


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## Amymay (14 January 2019)

Have you spoken to the person who had him on loan previously?


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## Gemz66 (14 January 2019)

amymay said:



			Have you spoken to the person who had him on loan previously?
		
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I have spoken with his previous owner, she has said the behaviour is not like him at all, never done anything dangerous in traffic and has always been a plod, he has only ever been part loaned before by a girl who is still at our field, she said he never was how he is now, a bit bolshy but no more than any other welsh d, it was her he threw off


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## Amymay (14 January 2019)

Gemz66 said:



			I have spoken with his previous owner, she has said the behaviour is not like him at all, never done anything dangerous in traffic and has always been a plod, he has only ever been part loaned before by a girl who is still at our field, she said he never was how he is now, a bit bolshy but no more than any other welsh d, it was her he threw off
		
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Then I suspect he's simply taking the pÂ£ss.

You didn't respond to my previous post - but I'm guessing you didn't try him before you bought him..

As previous, I'd move to a good professional yard where you can get help and support.


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## Gemz66 (14 January 2019)

Policy says

No cover for illness/disease showing clinical signs within 14 days of policy inception.

Am I right to presume as he has not had any tests or investigations with a vet for this, today the physio who came (as a private job not via a vet) was the first clinical signs or would that be when a vet confirms it? Either way Iâ€™m out of that time frame which is a positive


amymay said:



			Then I suspect he's simply taking the pÂ£ss.

You didn't respond to my previous post - but I'm guessing you didn't try him before you bought him..

As previous, I'd move to a good professional yard where you can get help and support.
		
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I had him on loan from the march and bought him in November, if this physio is right it would explain his behaviour gradually getting worse lately, I share with two ladies, both are experienced (equally shocked with his behaviour) the eldest worked with polo horses and has had them all her life (now 50) we we have other ladies who visit who are instructors/owners who knew him and have ridden him before so I do have good support but facility wise yes it is something I have to look into, weâ€™ve been looking for a sole use yard with more facilities anyway but agree need that even more now


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## ycbm (14 January 2019)

Landcruiser said:



			I'm surprised you managed to insure him without a vetting first. I've always been asked for a copy of the vet report.
		
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Insurers have a price that they will insure up to without a pre purchase vetting.


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## ycbm (14 January 2019)

Gemz66 said:



			Policy says

No cover for illness/disease showing clinical signs within 14 days of policy inception.

Am I right to presume as he has not had any tests or investigations with a vet for this, today the physio who came (as a private job not via a vet) was the first clinical signs or would that be when a vet confirms it? Either way Iâ€™m out of that time frame which is a positive
		
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The 14 days mean nothing if a previous  owner had ever called a vet to him and it's on record. Or if your investigations show a condition, arthritis for example, which has, or may have been,  been going on for a  long time. 

PLEASE do not underestimate how much insurance companies fight to avoid payouts and bankrupt yourself with vets fees they may refuse to pay.

Ask the previous owner/s to notify their vets that they can disclose all treatment/visits on their records to you, and check it out.


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## Amymay (14 January 2019)

I doubt you'd have an issue claiming. But you should ring your insurers once your vet has done an initial assessment to give them a heads up (if your vet decides that further investigation is warranted). And before you agree on any treatment plan.


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## Red-1 (14 January 2019)

If you have called the vet because of naughty behaviour and they find an issue that is possibly causing the naughty behaviour, and this naughty behaviour started within 14 days of the start of the insurance, then I would presume that he is not covered.

It is possible to get a yay or a nay to a claim before running up the bill in a non urgent case. It takes a few weeks. I did it for a scan and was told nay. As it happened the treatment would be the same whatever the diagnosis (steroid injection, rest and then controlled return to work) but the scan would have given an indication as to the likely success and may have meant a quicker return to work. The insurance initially said it would cover the cost, but I wanted that in writing (being as I was unsure that it was worth the expense if not). It took a few weeks, there was a technical term for it. It was negative so I am glad I looked into it fully.


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## Gemz66 (14 January 2019)

ycbm said:



			Insurers have a price that they will insure up to without a pre purchase vetting.
		
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Yes if he was over a certain amount they required vetting and xrays but he was under that threshold


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## Gemz66 (14 January 2019)

Red-1 said:



			If you have called the vet because of naughty behaviour and they find an issue that is possibly causing the naughty behaviour, and this naughty behaviour started within 14 days of the start of the insurance, then I would presume that he is not covered.

It is possible to get a yay or a nay to a claim before running up the bill in a non urgent case. It takes a few weeks. I did it for a scan and was told nay. As it happened the treatment would be the same whatever the diagnosis (steroid injection, rest and then controlled return to work) but the scan would have given an indication as to the likely success and may have meant a quicker return to work. The insurance initially said it would cover the cost, but I wanted that in writing (being as I was unsure that it was worth the expense if not). It took a few weeks, there was a technical term for it. It was negative so I am glad I looked into it fully.
		
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I havenâ€™t called the vet yet, I had a private physio come out to access him â€˜off the recordâ€™ and the policy was taken out last year so hoping as the 14 days have been and gone and he has never had any history of this we might be ok, I am still with the vet he was under before and apart from annual jabs thats all heâ€™s ever had/needed from them in the 6 years heâ€™s been under them so fingers crossed, the physio did advise to call the insurers first to ask so will get onto it tomorrow


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## FestiveFuzz (15 January 2019)

TBH I would be wary of any physio treating or assessing a horse "off the record" as by law they can't treat the horse without the permission of a vet. If there were any issues as a result of their unauthorised treatment you could find you invalidate your insurance too so it really is worth making sure a call has gone into the vets before any other treatment takes place.  

In terms of pre-existing conditions it really will depend on what the vet finds, as if it's something that can be proven to be long-standing or pre-existing I would expect the insurers to exclude it unfortunately.


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## Theocat (15 January 2019)

Gemz66 said:



			Policy says

No cover for illness/disease showing clinical signs within 14 days of policy inception.

Am I right to presume as he has not had any tests or investigations with a vet for this, today the physio who came (as a private job not via a vet) was the first clinical signs or would that be when a vet confirms it? Either way Iâ€™m out of that time frame which is a positive

...
 his behaviour gradually getting worse lately
		
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Your insurance company won't count from the day the vet or physio attended, they will count from the date you first noticed there was a problem (and yes, they will ask you to give a date and agree it with them - if you say it was "mid-December", for example, they might suggest the 15th, and they will try to push it as early as possible). Your twelve months starts from then, not from when you call the vet or get a diagnosis.

If you first noticed problems in the 14 days, they won't cover you.

If you noticed problems before you took out insurance, it counts as pre-existing and they won't cover you.

When exactly did you first notice an issue?


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## hopscotch bandit (18 January 2019)

Gemz66 said:



			Iâ€™m so gutted, the vet came out to do his jabs in October a month before I paid for him and he said he seemed in good health so I didnâ€™t bother getting him fully vetted prior to purchase, I wish Iâ€™d known this physio beforehand I would have got her out, the saddler did say she was extremely good and could pick up things Vetâ€™s didnâ€™t which is why I went for her first before a vet check with all this going on but still kicking myself!!
		
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Sorry to state the obvious but you should always have a horse vetted as the vet would probably have realised the horse had KS and your insurance could now come back to you to say their assessor feel it is a pre existing condition which they may not pay out on.   

At least you are trying to do your best by this horse.  Selling him isn't an easy solution.  If you sell the horse your conscience  will undoubtedly make you disclose that it has KS if you find out it does and its likely people would run a mile.  If I were you I would see what x-rays reveal and have a full and frank discussion with the vet to see what the future holds for this chap, costs, etc and whether he feels the insurance will pay out.  If he feels you have a chance then ring them and say the vet says the horse has KS and go from there.  There is no point putting you or your daughter at risk and maybe in this situation it sounds like no one is a winner.  I suspect the reason he was in a field for a year was that the previous owner found out he has possible KS or he played up for her and she used arthritis as an excuse.  His history would suggest that he has been in pain for a long while and although this pain might have reduced somewhat during the year out in the field it is obviously rearing its ugly head now.  I feel sorry for you and I also feel sorry for this horse, having niggling back pain, whether acute or chronic must be awful for the poor lad, I know what its like for me and I sympathise.

I am so sorry you are in this predicament.


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## Summit (19 January 2019)

I agree that you should see what vet and xrays say, there could be a chance that the physio is incorrect with her diagnosis


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