# Returning a horse not fit for purpose



## wakijaki (9 September 2013)

I bought a haflinger mare 6 weeks ago from a trekking center.  She was described as quiet to ride and 100% in all ways.  I went to view and ride her and she was fine although they tacked her up for me and we hacked out and she followed behind almost the whole time.  The seller assured me she would be a great first pony as I explained I was coming back after a long break and wanted something quiet and safe to have fun hacks and beach rides with. 
She has been difficult to handle from day one.  Bolshy bargey throwing her weight around.  Naps very badly and I'm unable to ride her alone as she won't go and then tries spinning backing up and bolting for the gate home.  She has also bucked with me in the field and also on the road and also while I have been leading her.  I tried lunging her once and she kept charging for me and spinning and bucking inwards at me. 
The seller did say she would buck in the school as she was easily bored. 
Have been in touch with the seller several times over the 6 weeks saying I wasn't happy and she was being a nightmare and dangerous to handle. She offered to have her back for two weeks training free of charge if I took her there... An 80 mile round trip... but has refused to accept there are these problems or to take her back for a refund. 
It's got to the point now where I'm scared of getting hurt around her and am a bag of nerves getting on her even in company.  She happily hacks in company as long as she is behind. 
Should day I have had her checked all over... Back tack feet teeth and all are fine.  Back lady said she had very bad behaviour issues and wanted to fight first.  She has been difficult for everyone to handle not just me. Every day everything is just a big fight with her.  I have tried being soft and gentle and have tried being firm and strict... Either way she reacts the same. 
Where do I stand about getting her sent back legally?  Receipt says sold as seen but I have copies of the adverts where she claims she is quiet and 100%... She is anything but. 
Thanks


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## kerrieberry2 (9 September 2013)

I've never been in this situation but I think its very hard for you to get a full refund! 

just wondering, her backs okay, but did her tack come with her?  does he saddle fit?  have you had any lessons on her?  might be worth getting the saddle checked and then getting someone more experienced/confident to hack her out alone for you!  I have friend who was in a similar situation with her pony and she has a lady hack in and school him a few times a week and he's a different horse now he has a confident rider on him, which in turn has made my friend more confident when she rides him, so has 2 confident people riding him, rather than one nervous person!

Good luck, I hope you get something sorted, and sorry you have found yourself in this situation


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## soulfull (9 September 2013)

From what I can make out you stand a better chance having bought from a business
I would seek legal advice ASAP as this is going to be your only way of being sure of doing thing correctly in order to take it further

However not sure if you have any experience of small claims courts. But  if that's where it ends up, even if you win you may not get money back as some people just don't care about court orders

I wish you well. In fairness as so called professionals they should have known that there was a risk she would play up once taken from the
Security of the other horses.   Some horses can't handle it!


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## soulfull (9 September 2013)

Edited to add. Very experiences friends had a mare that was an utter cow both to handle and ride. However they realised she was fine if there were always several other horses around both in her field and when she was ridden. So she is now on loan to a very respected college and they love her. She is perfect in that environment
She had never been in a riding school before but it's just what she needed
I guess I'm saying even with the best re training she may always be the same


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## Spring Feather (9 September 2013)

This is always the risk of buying riding school/trail riding horses if the business owners have not spent time rehabilitating the horse to becoming a privately owned horse again.  I'm not sure where you stand legally though.


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## Amymay (9 September 2013)

Pony sounds as if it cpuld be cracking. But unfortunately the environment you've bought it from means you'll have to put in some hard work. These horses are not used to doing _ anything _ alone.

Is the horse out 24/7?


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## Goldenstar (9 September 2013)

As spring feather says horses from trekking centres are often very difficult to settle in private homes.
Not sure if you will be able to return her trading standards might help you as you bought from a buisness .
If you are a BHS member the legal helpline might teel you where you stand.


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## Shysmum (9 September 2013)

"Sold as Seen" means just that, and I don't think you have any comeback against it. 

I bought my last horse from a Trekking Centre, and suffered exactly what you are struggling with now. Plus rearing and plungeing - because he had never been ridden on his own. they would have taken him back, but I saw it a challenge in the end. 

I had to REALLY get tough - the longest spurs I could find, a sharp stick, and hubs wit a lungeing whip behind. Bucket of water thrown from behind got him moving forwards (eek!) and if he tried to turn round, I made him either stand for ages, or go backwards.  It took months for him to get the idea, and tho he was never that forward going, he turned into a wonderful horse, who I miss terribly after six years.


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## Cortez (9 September 2013)

I'm afraid you are experiencing a very common result of buying A. a trekking horse, which very likely IS 100% easy and quiet in that environment, but not when asked to perform a totally alien set of behaviours, and B. a Haflinger, which tend to be bargy, opinionated so-and-so's unless handled, fed and worked in a businesslike way. Rather than trying to return the horse, which may very well not be possible, why don't you get some experienced, professional help and learn how to manage the horse? It is possible: she is not a monster, just needs proper handling and management. See it as a challenge and a learning opportunity and you might just end up with a wonderful little horse that you can be proud of.


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## Amymay (9 September 2013)

Great post Cortez.


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## Cortez (9 September 2013)

amymay said:



			Great post Cortez.
		
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Well, thank you *blushing modestly*...........


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## cptrayes (9 September 2013)

amymay said:



			Great post Cortez.
		
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I thought so too.


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## babymare (9 September 2013)

I agree brill post cortez


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## SusieT (9 September 2013)

Whilst it's all very well saying perservere but this could be dangerous for someone who is nervous with a strong, bargey pony. I would send a solicitors letter detailing the problems, ideally with a copy of the advert, and requesting a full refund. Then next time go with a more experienced instructor!


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## dogatemysalad (9 September 2013)

Agree with Cortez.


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## Pearlsasinger (9 September 2013)

I agree with SusieT, in this instance.  I really don't think that a nervous novice is the best person to reschool a strong, bargey Haflinger mare and the trekking centre should have been more careful about who they sold her to.  I have a strong mare who ran away with the novice who bought her from a RS and almost bought another one from a trekking centre whose progress I followed as she was readvertised as too strong by the novice who bought her from the field.
OP, contact BHs for advice.


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## Bantry (9 September 2013)

Listen to Cortez   But if you want nothing more to do with the horse (which is understandable) then cut your losses and sell her back to a treking centre. Its the easiest way to resolve it, going through a solicitor is expensive and may not be successful


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## Orangehorse (9 September 2013)

Well, everyone is right here.  Yes, it is true, you go the way suggested by Cortez, but by now you feel that you don't like the pony much.  I think you have  a strong hand in having the advertisement stating that the pony is quiet.

You need to contact either an equine solicitor, or the local Trading Standards, plus the BHs may give you good advice.

I have heard both sides in this sort of situation, but it is definitely in your favour that you bought from a business and not a private individual.


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## cheeryplatypus (9 September 2013)

Cortez is wise.  You could learn a lot and have a lovely wee pony...with some hard work!  I'd get an instructor out to assess you both and see what they think.  Least then you will have a better idea of things.
Good luck


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## AdorableAlice (9 September 2013)

Haflingers are notoriously rude without very firm handling, I don't see them as first horses or suitable for nervous owners.


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## Goldenstar (9 September 2013)

I am torn while I agree that working out issues and perservering when things are going wrong are things you must be prepared for with horses and I loath horses being described as not fit for purpose like a coat that leaks or something ,not living being with feeling removed from the enviroment it understands .
I feel heartily  sorry for the horses and often think the buyers need to engage their brains a bit more.
It depends on the size of the issue I think OP needs good help quickly someone needs to assess the size of the issue and how easy it will be to to train OP to deal with it.
Then it's down to how much Op is prepared to spend on help and learning and if she has access to facilities that she needs to sort this horse. 
But for lots of people horses are about uncomplicated fun they don't wish to to spend time in challenging situations and if you don't wish to deal with such an issue that's fine in my book  they have to move the horse on and learn from what they did wrong and choose better next time.


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## babymare (9 September 2013)

The forum as i like it. Lots of intelligent thoughts from different angles and reasoning. mmmm


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## OrangePepper (9 September 2013)

The fact you told the treking centre what you wanted and they have sold you a horse that is 'Not fit for Purpose' means that under current consumer law you can return the horse and claim not only a full refund but any additional expenses incurred in keeping the horse after the date you rejected it.  If you are Gold member of the BHS then you can ask for free legal advice, alternatively Citizen Advice may be able to assist you or contact a specialist equine solicitor.


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## wakijaki (10 September 2013)

kerrieberry2 said:



			just wondering, her backs okay, but did her tack come with her?  does he saddle fit? 

saddle came with her and was told it fitted - surely if it was the saddle she would also play up in company and at other times when asked to go - she is only playing up when made to go alone. She will quite happily hack for a couple of hours in company - following behind and also hack alone if a friend walks in front of her or by her head .
		
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## wakijaki (10 September 2013)

she was only kept there for 14 months and from what i can gather bucked in the school a lot - one of the children who rode there inboxed me on facebook and said that she had bucked her friend off twice in one ride so she wasn't happy there. She was turned out for 6 to 8 months while they tried to sell her on.


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## wakijaki (10 September 2013)

sorry im not good on forums for being able to quote and reply properly so will try to add what i can about questions asked / points raised.
She misbehaved at trekking center - bucked children off in the school and was described as grumpy - when i asked what this meant i was told she got fed up with children fussing around her all the time and would put her ears back and move away but never did anything like bite or kick.
She has had 4 homes in 4 years and i managed to get in touch with her owner before the trekking center and she told me she bought her from 2 novices that couldnt do anything with her at all. It took her a while to settle her in but she worked fine, loved hacking but would buck after half hour or more in the school so wasn't suitable for her children. She said before that she was used as a brood mare and before that she was broken to drive first and ride afterwards.
So honestly dont think she has ever really done that much work.
I did 2 years of diplomas in equine studies and work experinece at hunting, racing yards, studs and trekking centers ect when i was younger. I then had a long break due to children and work and last year started helping a friend out on her yard. 3 ponies - 1 i rode all the time hacking out and leading the others from and also a 17.2 tb x ID. I was hacking out and looking after all these on a day to day basis - alone for 8 months before they said they were selling them all to buy two new ones so i thought it was time to get my own.


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## wakijaki (10 September 2013)

I'm using the term 'fit for purpose' loosely but the point is - i can't ride her unless i have someone to follow - everything is such a massive battle with her - she paws and kicks out while trying to pick her feet out - is a totally nightmare to shoe. Takes ages to tack up as she barges and pushes and squeals all over the place. 
The back lady said she had massive behavioural issues and that her first instinct was just to have a fight with you and ask questions later. She advised me to send her away for 6 - 8 weeks minimum to have someone work on her and for me to go and see and ride her there after that time. This isnt an option i can afford. She also told me to only hack her out in company and also to lead her out in hand on the hacking routes as this would get her used to the area and build a bond between us. This again turns into another fight where she jogs along and pushes into me and walks over me while she tries to go back home. Then she stands and refuses to move. She also spins and bucks while i lead her.
I tried lunging her once and she bolted, came straight in towards me and spun and bucked just missing my face, she did this several times until i managed to get hold of her and take her back before i ended up dead.
I was not expecting a perfect pony - but when something is described as being used for beginners and novices - will go alone if firm with her - 100% in all ways - quiet to ride - was assured she would be an ideal first horse - easy to handle and keep...and she is anything but then im sorry i dont think its good enough that she wont take her back.
I would think her reputation should be valuable to her and that she wouldnt want something serious to go wrong and someone to really get hurt over the sake off the money i spent for her. She breaks, schools and sells horses for a living so if she couldnt do anything with her in the 14 months they had her then how can she expect me?
 I have also since found out she sold another haflinger mare this year that was also very naughty and nappy and that was to a woman same as me - wanting something quiet to hack and to lead her childrens pony from - this horse ditched the woman on the road - terrified the children and she took the horse back.


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## wakijaki (10 September 2013)

should also add that yes - she lives out 24/7 (with 2 other mares) as she did with them and is only brought in for checks and work. She doesn't get any feed except a carrot or two a day mixed up with a magneszium oxide supplement which her owner before the trekking center said worked wonders with her. This she has been on for a month now at loading level and it hasn't made any difference at all. 
I have a more experienced friend coming to ride her for me tomorrow but as it stands its hard to get help from friends as everyone is so busy and also i have already spent a small fortune on getting everything checked out on her when i was assured everything was fine with her so i was at a loss as to why she turned in to this monster pony and thought surely something must be physically wrong - however there is nothing wrong with her in that way. 
I have gold membership with bhs so will phone them and see what they say. 
I suspect that she probably didnt behave as badly there as she is here as she is stressed to the max to be on her own at any time and she would of be happy enough plodding along behind everyone else trekking. Thats also the reason why i dont think there is any point in her going back there for 2 weeks training that she so kindly offered me 'free of charge' if i hire a horse box at my expense to take her there - then she has my horse and my money and she has already proven i can't trust her at all!


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## Tnavas (10 September 2013)

My very first purchase was a riding school mare, and while she was great to handle she was dreadful to ride. 

Nappy, reared and often planted herself. I battled for many months and got nowhere other than learnt to long rein. 

I'd do my best to get them to take her back - I eventually sent mine to market.


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## eahotson (10 September 2013)

Pearlsasinger said:



			I agree with SusieT, in this instance.  I really don't think that a nervous novice is the best person to reschool a strong, bargey Haflinger mare and the trekking centre should have been more careful about who they sold her to.  I have a strong mare who ran away with the novice who bought her from a RS and almost bought another one from a trekking centre whose progress I followed as she was readvertised as too strong by the novice who bought her from the field.
OP, contact BHs for advice.
		
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Agree with this.


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## redmone (10 September 2013)

It's not often I offer advice (being a relatively novice owner myself) however I can relate to some of what you say.

When we bought our pony, Dolly, we were told she'd been a riding school pony, and worked at an RDA centre.  Safe as houses!!! 

She had a riding school mentality, in that when asked to ride alone, she would nap terribly.  Plant to start with, and then bomb off extremely fast if you got past the "plant" bit!

In company (eg riding lessons - where you'd think she'd be ok!) she would nap to the other ponies or to the gate.  Usually very fast, with young rider sometimes staying on after the sudden brakes were applied, and sometimes not.

She was a witch to tack up, and very bitey.  Especially to us new owners.  Couldn't even get the headcollar on ourselves for a while.

You can mull things over for ever, or take it down to two choices.  Black and White.

Move on, or fix it.

If you're looking for an easy fun ride (not hard work), you should pursue the sale of good act road (which I know is what you're referring to by "not fit for purpose" - and I agree you most likely have a very good case to pursue this - especially with the appropriate legal support and advice.)

If you're looking for a project (which you sound more than capable of dealing with, with the appropriate support) then keep it, work on it and, no doubt, fix it.

We fixed ours, with the help and support of lots of professionals.  But it took about 2 years.

I think it all depends on your personal circumstances, and only you know if you have the time, patience, money and inclination to "fix" this pony.  

Would be nice if you could, because pony would probably love you forever once it came to trust you (apologies for "it" can't remember if your pony is a mare or a gelding!).

But equally a "bad" pony costs as much to keep as a "good" one doesn't it.  Wise words I was told, but I didn't listen to them lol!!!

Good luck in whatever you decide.

xxx


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## Goldenstar (10 September 2013)

as cost seems to be a consideration please reflect carefully at each stage the costs you are incurring in persueing any action you take the small claims court is not expensive and you may be able to persue the case yourself .
I am not sure want the sold as seen on the reciept will do to your case that's one of the main things you need to understand .
I hope the legal helpline at the BHS can help you let us know how you get on if you have time.


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## wakijaki (10 September 2013)

Thanks the problem is I haven't got the support unless I pay for it and paying someone £20 plus an hour when I work part time at minimum wage on top of all the other costs is just not an option.  I do have horsey friends but already today I have been let down as a friend said she would come and ride her for me and now she can't til later on in the week maybe. The problem is everyone is too busy with their own work, families and horses to be able to spare the time this would need and in the meantime everything I go near her I'm worried about getting hurt.  
Yes horses cost money and I can afford to keep her and look after her but the amount of work and time she is going to need just so I can ride her and handle her when I was promised an easy pony and she was fully aware this would be my first since I was a child.  
My friend and I rode her in the field yesterday and once you can get her moving she is just impossible to steer as she tries to bomb off to the gate,  just trying to get her to go round the outside of the field in a straight line was out of the question as she went across sideways to the gate.  If you ask her to trot you really have to push and push and then she just stops dead so you almost come off and all the time if you tell her off she threatens to buck. I'm too scared now to ask her to canter as if I have no control in walk or trot  and no brakes or steering then it would just be dangerous . I'm also now too scared to ride her on my own anyway as I have almost come off several times with the bucking backing and spinning and worry that something will happen and no one will know I'm hurt.  
If the old seller really believes there are no problems with her and she is such a good horse trainer then why is she so reluctant to have her back?  If she couldn't train her there for 14 months then I have no hope.


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## Shysmum (10 September 2013)

Get her in a strong bit - i had to use a mullen mouth pelham with chain. Try ebay ?


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## deeplydippy (10 September 2013)

at the risk of getting jumped on I have 2 suggestions, firstly contack the Haflinger soc to see if anyone close to you with one of this breed already can offer any help or suggestions and secondly sounds like a candidate for Parelli. There is no shame in not riding her atm when its not safe to do so. look for help in sorting out respect and ground work issues first.


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## AdorableAlice (10 September 2013)

deeplydippy said:



			at the risk of getting jumped on I have 2 suggestions, firstly contack the Haflinger soc to see if anyone close to you with one of this breed already can offer any help or suggestions and secondly sounds like a candidate for Parelli. There is no shame in not riding her atm when its not safe to do so. look for help in sorting out respect and ground work issues first.
		
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With the greatest respect, the OP bought a pony with one intention - to enjoy it.  The pony was sold as safe, it has proven itself not to be, surely there is a case for misrepresentation.

Haflingers need a handler that is prepared to be more dominate than the breed is.


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## Amymay (10 September 2013)

Seems like you have no option OP but to pursue returning the horse.

Good luck.


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## BayLady (10 September 2013)

Get her in a strong bit - i had to use a mullen mouth pelham with chain. Try ebay ?
		
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I'm a bit confused as to what this is supposed to do to help an already nappy horse.  



OP, what you have essentially is a horse that has no experience of life.  Being hacked out in a group doesn't really take much education on the part of the owner, they're programmed to go with the herd and find it relatively easy.  The bucking could be due to any number of things, but I would guess that the mare has no idea what's being asked of her and gets upset/angry when put to work doing something she doesn't understand.    She sounds a bit like my 4yr old who was backed late last year and has only ever hacked in company.  He is perfect to hack as long as he has someone to follow, but doing it alone frightens him.  It's not a problem for me as I knew that when I bought him and we're working on it, along with basic schooling and confidence building.  If it's not what you signed up for when buying though, that's a whole different thing.

Haflingers aren't easy horses and I'd never recommend them as first horses.  Your problem is that you've got one that's been spoilt by lack of education and seemingly poor handling also (the barging, etc).  It's not impossible to retrain her but it will take time, energy and if you're not experienced enough to do it alone, it will also take money.

In theory you do have a case to return her to the trekking centre as mis-sold and not fit for purpose, but I doubt that they're going to just accept her back when you ask.  You'll need to have copies of the advert you bought her from, plus any other evidence of mis-selling (email conversations, witnesses to your viewing if possible, that sort of thing).  I'd take those to the trading standards office and see if they'll approach the seller on your behalf.  If that fails, you could try small claims court but again that will be time consuming and stressful.

The only other alternative is for you to sell her on to someone with the experience and time to bring her on.  Sell her with full disclosure to safeguard yourself.  Unless you got her for a song in the first place this will likely leave you out of pocket though, as she won't be worth a huge amount as a retraining project.

Funnily enough, when I was horse hunting for my chap (who's a Haflinger x Welsh D and is the most beautifully mannered pony you could wish for, despite everyone warning me against his breeding), I came across several Haflingers being sold with similar background stories to yours.  It seems to be quite common for them to be sold as suitable for children or beginners when in fact few are.


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## WelshD (10 September 2013)

The old owner not wanting the pony back may not be suspicious - it coyld be that they used the money to settle bills or coukd be that they think you are making a fuss

Since they are a riding school of sorts why not ask if they can come and see things for themselves or offer you some lessons there?

One of mine was a gem with his last owners and a nightmare with me - they were so surprised that unless thet had visited and saw ut they wouldnt have believed it

Good advice from Redmone above who has been through this


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## Coldfeet! (10 September 2013)

I bought my gelding from a riding centre/trekking centre. Its always hard when a horse moves to a new home, some act in a way thats completely contrary to their usual nature but they are not robots. The move from a 60 strong yard when he was mostly living out and dragged in on a work day to stand nose to tail with twenty others in a cattle shipping to a yard of six was a massive culture shock for him. He drew his confidence from me and its been eight months and wil hack out alone now although he still calls sometimes. A nervous rider just would have fuelled his worries and stress. They take time to adjust, she isnt a monster just upset its a shame because she's probably a lovely girl under her stress. I do hope you get sorted its not nice to get a horse home that balks at the move but they are not robots they think and feel and get attached to their friends and thrive on their routine.


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## Goldenstar (10 September 2013)

Shysmum said:



			Get her in a strong bit - i had to use a mullen mouth pelham with chain. Try ebay ?
		
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Why would you put a strong bit on a badly trained horse that's going not forward .
The first thing this needs to learn is to obey the driving forward aids actually no the first thing it needs to learn is respect totally people space and commands on the ground.


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## lachlanandmarcus (10 September 2013)

Just to say Haflingers are cobs and lots are bred from driving lines or even for meat and not given proper one to one handling from day 1 or not asked to do stuff like hacking alone.  Then they are sold to kids or private homes and they buy them cos they look pretty or cos they behave well in the current environment. 

Haflingers are wonderful horses but if at all possible but them as unbroken youngsters, ideally GB reg ones as continental ones can have other breeds mixed in sometimes and can still be registered) and educate them yourself. That way you are guaranteed to get a true Haflinger, a clever, kind, beautiful horse who will be (as mine is) your horse of a lifetime. 

OP I think since you have clearly bought the pony from a business, and it is not as described then they (altho it doesn't help) will be ultimately unable to hide behind a sold as seen label, a bit like shops cant get rid of your rights to return stuff simply by having a 'policy' of not accepting them. 

I would go down that route. I don't think altho not a novice you have the will to see it through in addressing the issues, so it would be better to pursue return of the pony.


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## madlady (10 September 2013)

OP I really do feel for you - you cannot do what you wanted to do with this pony.

Ultimately it comes down to do you like her enough to put in the work that it will take for her to be the pony of your dreams?

There are things that you can do - without it costing you money - that will help to turn the pony around.  You need to be her lead mare and you need to come to an understanding with her. 

In your situation I would probably decide to keep, I'd take her back to basics, take her out for walks, long rein her and re-train her to work on her own.  There are lots of books out there that can help - I'm thinking Perfect Manners could be a good starting point.

If you don't like her enough to want to do that though then you need to get the ball rolling to get your money back as soon as possible as the longer you keep her the easier it will be for the people who you bought her from to say that you have caused this behaviour and that she wasn't like that before she came to you.


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## applecart14 (10 September 2013)

wakijaki said:



			I bought a haflinger mare 6 weeks ago from a trekking center.  She was described as quiet to ride and 100% in all ways.  I went to view and ride her and she was fine although they tacked her up for me and we hacked out and she followed behind almost the whole time.  The seller assured me she would be a great first pony as I explained I was coming back after a long break and wanted something quiet and safe to have fun hacks and beach rides with. 
She has been difficult to handle from day one.  Bolshy bargey throwing her weight around.  Naps very badly and I'm unable to ride her alone as she won't go and then tries spinning backing up and bolting for the gate home.  She has also bucked with me in the field and also on the road and also while I have been leading her.  I tried lunging her once and she kept charging for me and spinning and bucking inwards at me. 
The seller did say she would buck in the school as she was easily bored. 
Have been in touch with the seller several times over the 6 weeks saying I wasn't happy and she was being a nightmare and dangerous to handle. She offered to have her back for two weeks training free of charge if I took her there... An 80 mile round trip... but has refused to accept there are these problems or to take her back for a refund. 
It's got to the point now where I'm scared of getting hurt around her and am a bag of nerves getting on her even in company.  She happily hacks in company as long as she is behind. 
Should day I have had her checked all over... Back tack feet teeth and all are fine.  Back lady said she had very bad behaviour issues and wanted to fight first.  She has been difficult for everyone to handle not just me. Every day everything is just a big fight with her.  I have tried being soft and gentle and have tried being firm and strict... Either way she reacts the same. 
Where do I stand about getting her sent back legally?  Receipt says sold as seen but I have copies of the adverts where she claims she is quiet and 100%... She is anything but. 
Thanks
		
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I am really sorry its all gone wrong for you. I hate to say but you should really have got a full five stage vetting with bloods.  She may have been doped or given pain killers when you tried her and had you had the bloods taken and she had reacted badly once home the vets would have sent them off to the lab for you so they could see if the mare had been given any drugs.

Just for future reference you should always see a prospective horse caught in the field, tacked up  in the stable and ridden by the owner before you get on.  You say back teeth, etc all checked.  Checked by whom?  Are they professional people or fellow liveries?

I think maybe you should get a registered physio to have a look at her to see if there are any physical issues and go from there.  You might like to consider this one who comes highly recommended and is Midlands based. http://gemmakeyvetphysio.com/

She sounds like she is in pain and reacting in this way because it hurts.  Or it could be that she is used to a high level of work and needs this amount to keep sane and it may be that you are not working her hard enough.

Have you had anyone else ride her who is more experienced than yourself?  How did they get on?


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## FestiveFuzz (10 September 2013)

OrangePepper said:



			The fact you told the treking centre what you wanted and they have sold you a horse that is 'Not fit for Purpose' means that under current consumer law you can return the horse and claim not only a full refund but any additional expenses incurred in keeping the horse after the date you rejected it.  If you are Gold member of the BHS then you can ask for free legal advice, alternatively Citizen Advice may be able to assist you or contact a specialist equine solicitor.
		
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Haven't read through everything yet, but I'm not sure how "not fit for purpose" works when you're talking about a living, breathing creature that has it's own mind unless it's an undisclosed medical condition. It's a bit like ads where they state the horse is 100% bombproof or never bucks/rears/bolts etc. it's a horse, there is no possible way you can guarantee their behaviour 100% of the time.

Also surely buying sold as seen means you have no comeback in such situations or do CAB/trading standards/BHS view this differently? Genuinely interested to know what others think on this one as it seems such a grey area.


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## Gloi (10 September 2013)

She sounds a lot like my first pony who came from a trekking centre via a riding school. My dad, who knew nothing of horses bought him for me because I said I liked him, though I hadn't the experience at the time to know what he'd be like as I'd only ever ridden in a riding school. I was 13 at the time. He'd obviously never been schooled or ridden alone before but fortunately I was just glad to have him and was as pig headed as he was. I used to set myself a target of how far I was going to get up the track and try and make it a bit further each day. He would stop, squeal, spin and gallop home and then we'd start again. Sometimes my friends would drag him or follow with a lunge whip. Eventually we started to win and after 6 months I could do anything with him and rode him every second I wasn't at school. I learned more from that pony than I did from any riding school or any other I've had since.


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## wakijaki (10 September 2013)

Have been on the phone to bhs this morning and they said that as the seller would be classed as a dealer as she has other horses up for sale in the course of her business then I'm protected under sale of goods act 1979 and within my rights to reject the horse and seek a refund within 2 years... For the first 6 months I don't have to prove the bad behaviour myself. 
She recommended that I contact the seller by registered post and formally reject the horse and in the meantime to say I will take reasonable care of its day to day needs and give the seller 7 to 14 days to collect and give back my money.  Other than that I can take her to small claims court and also ask back for any expense I have incurred since day one.  
So this Is what I am going to do. 
I'm fully aware that horses change in different environments and that she isn't a robot but I also would never have bought the horse if I thought she would be so dangerous to handle. 
I was offered project horses free so there's no way I would of spent £900 on a project.


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## Amymay (10 September 2013)

Sounds promising.

Let us know how you get on.


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## ester (10 September 2013)

have you asked the seller if they will take the pony back?

afaik the 'sold as seen' receipt does not stand for anything legally but not fit for purpose would stand. You need to get some legal advice though really OP, though that might depend on how much the pony was initially as to what outlay it is worth as opposed to reselling.

eta just seen the update, good luck.


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## Charlemagne (10 September 2013)

Sorry, only just caught up with this thread. I think you've done the right thing, as much as you can't guarantee their behaviour, it sound like she has issues and isn't suitable, hope they take her back and you can get something more suitable that you can enjoy. Keep us posted. x


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## Spring Feather (10 September 2013)

Well good luck!  Doubt it's going to be as easy as you think to win your case but heyho.  I would hardly class what your pony is doing as dangerous though.  It's a pony ... heck it's a Haflinger!  They're reknowed for being like this as they are working ponies, not patty ponies and most really aren't suitable for beginners like you.  I suspect, if you go back down the route of buying another horse you may well have just as many problems unfortunately as horses (and particularly ponies) are usually very quick indeed at sussing out their handlers.  And a final thing, to buy a TRUE beginner horse, you might want to up your budget considerably, £900 isn't the going rate for a perfect first horse.


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## dogatemysalad (10 September 2013)

wakijaki said:



			Have been on the phone to bhs this morning and they said that as the seller would be classed as a dealer as she has other horses up for sale in the course of her business then I'm protected under sale of goods act 1979 and within my rights to reject the horse and seek a refund within 2 years... For the first 6 months I don't have to prove the bad behaviour myself. 
She recommended that I contact the seller by registered post and formally reject the horse and in the meantime to say I will take reasonable care of its day to day needs and give the seller 7 to 14 days to collect and give back my money.  Other than that I can take her to small claims court and also ask back for any expense I have incurred since day one.  
So this Is what I am going to do. 
I'm fully aware that horses change in different environments and that she isn't a robot but I also would never have bought the horse if I thought she would be so dangerous to handle. 
I was offered project horses free so there's no way I would of spent £900 on a project.
		
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Good heavens. If this is true, then selling a horse could be a nightmare. This isn't aimed at you, but any buyer can ruin a horse and send it back without any recourse. 
I can't quite believe its as straight forward as that.


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## OrangePepper (10 September 2013)

What you wanted was a safe bombproof/spookproof horse that you could jump on and go off by yourselves at the pace you wanted to go at.  This horse is unsuitable.
Put together all the evidence you have about this horse and then simply make a claim from the seller through the smalls claim court.  They will be very sympathetic with you.
https://www.moneyclaim.gov.uk/web/mcol/welcome


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## Amymay (10 September 2013)

Spring Feather said:



			Well good luck!  Doubt it's going to be as easy as you think to win your case but heyho.  I would hardly class what your pony is doing as dangerous though.  It's a pony ... heck it's a Haflinger!  They're reknowed for being like this as they are working ponies, not patty ponies and most really aren't suitable for beginners like you.  I suspect, if you go back down the route of buying another horse you may well have just as many problems unfortunately as horses (and particularly ponies) are usually very quick indeed at sussing out their handlers.  And a final thing, to buy a TRUE beginner horse, you might want to up your budget considerably, £900 isn't the going rate for a perfect first horse.
		
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I had no idea that Haflinger's were renowned for being difficult and I've been around horses all my life.

I also can't see why the OP should have any problems with a horse that is bought out of the 'right' environment. 

The OP hasn't ended up with the horse she thought she'd purchased.  Plain and simple.  And she has a right to send it back.

So how about stopping with the condescension?  I think we're all well aware by now that absolutely nothing phases you, and there is no situation that you've not been in and come out of the other side successfully. Unfortunately not everyone can be quite so lucky or experienced.


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## ester (10 September 2013)

dogatemysalad said:



			Good heavens. If this is true, then selling a horse could be a nightmare. This isn't aimed at you, but any buyer can ruin a horse and send it back without any recourse. 
I can't quite believe its as straight forward as that.
		
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I think mostly you require witnesses/info that either knew the horse prior to sale and would say it was not as described by the seller, or that saw it very soon after purchase- such as your instructor- and testify it was not as described.


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## BayLady (10 September 2013)

Playing devils advocate, what if the seller didn't actually know about the not hacking alone? It's a trekking centre, it's not unreasonable that they'd have never tried to take the mare out on her own. That's not misrepresentation, it's lack of knowledge.  Unless the buyer specifically asked "does this horse hack safely alone", I don't think there's a huge amount of comeback to be had.  And even if the buyer did ask this, without a witness or something in writing it's very much he said, she said, which doesn't count for all that much in a court of law.

Also, there is a certain amount of buyer beware in any purchase of this type.  I wouldn't take anyone's say so as evidence of the horse being able to do something, I'd want to check it myself and if that meant trying the horse more than once, so be it.

And finally, and this is by the by but it may have some bearing in terms of the buyers expectations, £900 is the budget for a project horse, whether it's a youngster to bring on or an older horse that needs retraining. Even in this market.

I'm not saying that the OP isn't right to want to seek some sort of redress, as the horse obviously isn't what she was looking for and not fully as advertised, but there's likely to be a lot more to proving this in small claims court than just "the ad said x and the horse does y".


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## Goldenstar (10 September 2013)

There's no way £900 buys the perfect hack alone horse for a novice round here .
My perfect school mistress who gentle and sweet went for the same price as a good young event horse.
Such horses are always in demand .
I am not saying you can't find one for £1000 but you will have to work at it.
Hopefully the letter will be enough to make the the dealer take the horse back if then its off to the small claims court and see what the magistrates say.
Good luck OP I hope it's over with quickly and you can move on.


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## Amymay (10 September 2013)

Goldenstar said:



			There's no way £900 buys the perfect hack alone horse for a novice round here .
My perfect school mistress who gentle and sweet went for the same price as a good young event horse.
Such horses are always in demand .
I am not saying you can't find one for £1000 but you will have to work at it.
Hopefully the letter will be enough to make the the dealer take the horse back if then its off to the small claims court and see what the magistrates say.
Good luck OP I hope it's over with quickly and you can move on.
		
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I completely agree.  However, regardless of the price, if the horse was not as described it doesn't matter whether the horse was £900 or £9,000.

But granted - yes, I think most of us would be looking to pay significantly more.  Not that it's relevant in this situation.


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## dogatemysalad (10 September 2013)

amymay said:



			I had no idea that Haflinger's were renowned for being difficult and I've been around horses all my life.

I also can't see why the OP should have any problems with a horse that is bought out of the 'right' environment. 

The OP hasn't ended up with the horse she thought she'd purchased.  Plain and simple.  And she has a right to send it back.

So how about stopping with the condescension?  I think we're all well aware by now that absolutely nothing phases you, and there is no situation that you've not been in and come out of the other side successfully. Unfortunately not everyone can be quite so lucky or experienced.
		
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Usually I agree with you, but in this instance, I don't. 

If every new horse owner sent back a horse that didn't immediately present as a confident solo hacker with an inexperienced rider on a new yard, there'd be an awful lot of horses being sent back.

Its a little unfair to accuse SF of condescension, I didn't read it that way. I thought it was reasonable.


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## Amymay (10 September 2013)

dogatemysalad said:



			Usually I agree with you, but in this instance, I don't. 

If every new horse owner sent back a horse that didn't immediately present as a confident solo hacker with an inexperienced rider on a new yard, there'd be an awful lot of horses being sent back.
		
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I agree to a point.  However, in this instance it would appear that the horse _has_ been misrepresented.  And as the owner has rights there's no reason not to exercise them.


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## Goldenstar (10 September 2013)

amymay said:



			I agree to a point.  However, in this instance it would appear that the horse _has_ been misrepresented.  And as the owner has rights there's no reason not to exercise them.
		
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Exactly  OP definatly  should seek to return the horse and recover her money.
Whether the court ( if it gets that far ) decides there was misrepresentation is another matter my experiance of courts is that it depends how it goes on the day.
hopefully it won't come to that .


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## showpony (10 September 2013)

Did you tell the trekking centre that you wanted the horse for hacking out alone???
If I was really keen on the horse I would take them up on offer of taking him back for some re-schooling with them agreeing to take the horse back if still no improvement.

TBH OP - Most horses that would come from such an environment would not be used to hacking out without company - its not to say that it isn't fixable... buy will take some work to build his confidence... but you have to decide IF you want to put the work in.

If things don't work out suggest you take your instructor with you or someone very experienced to view ... Make sure you tack up yourself , see the horse being caught, ride it in the arena, field, road alone & with company... Basically test it for everything you would want to do.

Best of luck.


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## dogatemysalad (10 September 2013)

amymay said:



			I agree to a point.  However, in this instance it would appear that the horse _has_ been misrepresented.  And as the owner has rights there's no reason not to exercise them.
		
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If the advert says 100% to hack out alone and the rider saw this done in its previous home, then fair enough, but the OP doesn't mention this. We don't really know what either party said, we only know what the OP was hoping to have. 

Some good horses find moving home and owner really stressful, it doesn't mean the seller lied. The last horse I bought, I asked the seller to ride it out alone. I watched from a hill and saw it trot out quite happily in driving sleet and along a busy road.
 Even then, on getting it home, I was prepared for the horse not coping and it was a pleasant surprise to find it quite happy to face whatever I threw at it. 

If the OP stressed that the horse must hack out alone when she purchased it and didn't see it doing that, then, I'd agree with her POV. I suppose only the OP knows what the horse is like, but for £900, unless it was semi retired, the price does have some bearing on what could be reasonably expected.


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## eahotson (10 September 2013)

I think 500 pounds is very little for a sound, not too old/young genuine beginners/nervous ride.I bought a welsh cob who is a genuine novices ride, hacks out alone etc. and I paid 4.800 for him.He has been worth every penny actually.


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## ridefast (10 September 2013)

Cortez said:



			I'm afraid you are experiencing a very common result of buying A. a trekking horse, which very likely IS 100% easy and quiet in that environment, but not when asked to perform a totally alien set of behaviours, and B. a Haflinger, which tend to be bargy, opinionated so-and-so's unless handled, fed and worked in a businesslike way. Rather than trying to return the horse, which may very well not be possible, why don't you get some experienced, professional help and learn how to manage the horse? It is possible: she is not a monster, just needs proper handling and management. See it as a challenge and a learning opportunity and you might just end up with a wonderful little horse that you can be proud of.
		
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I was just thinking this


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## ridefast (10 September 2013)

Sounds like the horse needs taking completely back to basics and re-educating. I've heard a lot of bad press about haflingers, I expect the real problem is they are clever, pretty, and strong, which would lead to novices buying them as cute youngsters and not having the experience to teach them good manners. Seen it happen with cute fluffy cobs aswell. OP, I would stop giving her carrots if I were you. Carrots are very high in sugar so probably the mag-ox is making no difference if being fed with carrots. (And yes, it does make a difference even with only 1 or 2) If you can find someone who knows how to teach groundwork that would be a good investment, you don't necessarily need someone every week. Forget about riding for now, keep it simple, work on one thing at a time such as getting her to move forwards in hand and stand in hand. You don't sound like a complete beginner, so this could be the challenge that takes you out of the novice category? Also, if she's bad to be shod, make life easy and don't have her shod.


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## Baileybones (10 September 2013)

I know you've got plenty going on trying to negotiate her return but in the mean time it might be worth reconsidering the magnesium supplement. This only works as a calmer if they're actually deficient and I know the old owner used to use it and rated it but circumstances may have altered. 
I only say this as tried it on one of my spooky mares and it sent her unhinged!! I knew within days that she was getting worse, even dangerous and stopped it but as this mare is new to you and your yard etc it may be that its aggravating her behaviour without you realising. 

Good luck x


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## JLD (10 September 2013)

would also second stopping mag oxide - sent my boy a bit loopy too although maybe I just had high hopes of it working so it felt worse. didnt help any way. i would prob take up the offer of them having her back to school though if they wont take her back and you dont want the problems of managing her - I too would struggle in your position and while not a 'beginner' lose confidence very quickly if I am scared so wouldnt judge you at all on this one.


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## wakijaki (10 September 2013)

Spring Feather said:



			Well good luck!  Doubt it's going to be as easy as you think to win your case but heyho.  I would hardly class what your pony is doing as dangerous though.  It's a pony ... heck it's a Haflinger!  They're reknowed for being like this as they are working ponies, not patty ponies and most really aren't suitable for beginners like you.  I suspect, if you go back down the route of buying another horse you may well have just as many problems unfortunately as horses (and particularly ponies) are usually very quick indeed at sussing out their handlers.  And a final thing, to buy a TRUE beginner horse, you might want to up your budget considerably, £900 isn't the going rate for a perfect first horse.
		
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I am not a beginner - always had ponies as a child and did 2 years of equine studies as a teenager - riding everyday, having lessons and doing jumping and cross country. We also did lots of work experience at various yards including racing, hunting and stud yards. As I said i have had a break but since coming back ended up as a yard manager for free to friends who had several ponies which i would exercise on a daily basis and also a 17.2 tb x id that i would hack out daily also. 
yes this is my first pony that i have bought but the seller was made aware of the fact that i did a lot when i was younger and this would be my first for a long time. She assured me it would be an easy pony - i also told her i wanted the pony for my friend to ride out on and lead her daughter on her pony - again she said she would be suitable. I also mentioned i would like for my friends children to ride her sometimes and again she pointed out that she was riden by children and complete beginnners and people who had never sat on a horse before.
No im not an expert and i wasnt expecting everything to be hunky dory but i was expecting to get a horse i could handle without it almost killing me and ride without being a danger to myself and others while out on the road.


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## wakijaki (10 September 2013)

dogatemysalad said:



			Good heavens. If this is true, then selling a horse could be a nightmare. This isn't aimed at you, but any buyer can ruin a horse and send it back without any recourse. 
I can't quite believe its as straight forward as that.
		
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Not for private sellers - i wouldnt have a leg to stand on there but as she sold the horse in the course of business then it does apply. Im pretty sure the bhs legal team knows what its talking about. She also told me within the 6 months i wouldnt have to prove the horse was behaving in such a manner - it would be the sellers job to prove it wasn't .


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## wakijaki (10 September 2013)

amymay said:



			I had no idea that Haflinger's were renowned for being difficult and I've been around horses all my life.

I also can't see why the OP should have any problems with a horse that is bought out of the 'right' environment. 

The OP hasn't ended up with the horse she thought she'd purchased.  Plain and simple.  And she has a right to send it back.

So how about stopping with the condescension?  I think we're all well aware by now that absolutely nothing phases you, and there is no situation that you've not been in and come out of the other side successfully. Unfortunately not everyone can be quite so lucky or experienced.
		
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Thank you - i also had no idea they were so bad as breed as all i saw first was the positives about them being very versatile .
Another point to make is the seller sold recently another haflinger that had the excat same issues as mine and she ended up having to take it back - surely she would of thought the same might happen again and make sure that any buyer was suitable for the horse if she didnt want it to end up coming back?


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## wakijaki (10 September 2013)

BayLady said:



			Playing devils advocate, what if the seller didn't actually know about the not hacking alone? It's a trekking centre, it's not unreasonable that they'd have never tried to take the mare out on her own. That's not misrepresentation, it's lack of knowledge.  Unless the buyer specifically asked "does this horse hack safely alone", I don't think there's a huge amount of comeback to be had.  
Yes i did ask this and she assured me that she would go alone - that she had hacked her out herself alone and also tha she was ridden regularly by a 10 year old girl on the trekking trails alone .

Also, there is a certain amount of buyer beware in any purchase of this type. 
Buyer beware only applies to private sellers - as she sold in course of business the sale of goods act 1979 applies. 

And finally, and this is by the by but it may have some bearing in terms of the buyers expectations, £900 is the budget for a project horse, whether it's a youngster to bring on or an older horse that needs retraining. Even in this market.
		
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## lachlanandmarcus (10 September 2013)

wakijaki said:



			Thank you - i also had no idea they were so bad as breed as all i saw first was the positives about them being very versatile .
Another point to make is the seller sold recently another haflinger that had the excat same issues as mine and she ended up having to take it back - surely she would of thought the same might happen again and make sure that any buyer was suitable for the horse if she didnt want it to end up coming back?
		
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They're not bad as a breed :-((((
And they are extremely versatile! But one of unknown breeding who's in a trekking centre and for sale for £900 is
Unlikely to be one of the ones that's had the firm and fair handling they like most strong and clever cobs require every day. 

To give an indication, my GB girl with great bloodlines and temperament cost £2500 as an unbroken 3 yo. I could have bought loads already broken for £1k but also that they wouldn't have the background you need with any sparky cob eg Haflingers or welsh Ds.

Don't diss the breed, the quality properly treated end is truly magical.


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## Spring Feather (10 September 2013)

wakijaki said:



			I am not a beginner - always had ponies as a child and did 2 years of equine studies as a teenager - riding everyday, having lessons and doing jumping and cross country. We also did lots of work experience at various yards including racing, hunting and stud yards. As I said i have had a break but since coming back ended up as a yard manager for free to friends who had several ponies which i would exercise on a daily basis and also a 17.2 tb x id that i would hack out daily also. 
yes this is my first pony that i have bought but the seller was made aware of the fact that i did a lot when i was younger and this would be my first for a long time. She assured me it would be an easy pony - i also told her i wanted the pony for my friend to ride out on and lead her daughter on her pony - again she said she would be suitable. I also mentioned i would like for my friends children to ride her sometimes and again she pointed out that she was riden by children and complete beginnners and people who had never sat on a horse before.
No im not an expert and i wasnt expecting everything to be hunky dory but i was expecting to get a horse i could handle without it almost killing me and ride without being a danger to myself and others while out on the road.
		
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I think, once you've sorted this situation out with the pony you have at present, and if you're planning to get another, it would be a good idea to do all the things on the next pony that you will want to do once you get it home.  So if you want to make sure it does ride out alone, then make sure either you, or the seller rides it out alone and you either drive up the road and wait to watch them riding alone, or stand somewhere that you can view it.  Another tip if you are buy again from a trekking centre is to ask to take the pony upfront and see how it rides at the head of the ride.  Also take it away from the other horses and see if you get any argument or upset from the horse.

I owned a trail riding outfit for years so I know what these horses are like.  They're working horses who do what they do perfectly but once you take them out of their usual working environment some of them just do not know how to react.  When I closed my trail riding business I rehabbed all of the horses I planned to sell so that they became used to being private horses again and they were all super by the time I started rehoming them; most went to people who knew them, who had ridden them here and most of the riders were beginner/novice riders and these were their first horses.  It just takes a bit of time to get them used to a different way of life.

I would again advise upping your budget if you want to find a TRUE beginner/novice ride horse/pony which is exactly what you need as you mention children riding.  Unfortunately often these type of little goldmines don't see the open market and are sold quietly and privately.  Once in a while there's a little diamond in the rough that can be purchased for peanuts but they're few and far between.  Do you have an experienced buyer friend (that you could bribe with lunch) into pony-hunting with you?


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## Spot_On (10 September 2013)

I haven't read all replies.

Is sending her to be re-schooled with a more experienced rider an option for you? Or having a trainer come to you to ride? 

One of mine was a massive pain in the bum to hack alone, borderline dangerous as had spent years following other horses. I managed to get help from a trainer and, while didn't manage to 100% cure the issue, it helped 98% and boosted my confidence in dealing with the situation when the napping/broncing started to make a re-appearance.


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## PollyP99 (10 September 2013)

lachlanandmarcus said:



			They're not bad as a breed :-((((
And they are extremely versatile! But one of unknown breeding who's in a trekking centre and for sale for £900 is
Unlikely to be one of the ones that's had the firm and fair handling they like most strong and clever cobs require every day. 

To give an indication, my GB girl with great bloodlines and temperament cost £2500 as an unbroken 3 yo. I could have bought loads already broken for £1k but also that they wouldn't have the background you need with any sparky cob eg Haflingers or welsh Ds.

Don't diss the breed, the quality properly treated end is truly magical.
		
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Second this about the breed, we had one stay with us over summer and it was the sweetest horse to ride and handle.  Looked like a cuddly bear and acted like one too, my non horsey OH loved him - not a bolshy bone in his (large) body.

Sorry to hear of your issues op, it is sad for the pony too, hope it doesn't continue to be bounced around.


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## wakijaki (10 September 2013)

dogatemysalad said:



			If the advert says 100% to hack out alone and the rider saw this done in its previous home, then fair enough, but the OP doesn't mention this. We don't really know what either party said, we only know what the OP was hoping to have. 


Some good horses find moving home and owner really stressful, it doesn't mean the seller lied. The last horse I bought, I asked the seller to ride it out alone. I watched from a hill and saw it trot out quite happily in driving sleet and along a busy road.
 Even then, on getting it home, I was prepared for the horse not coping and it was a pleasant surprise to find it quite happy to face whatever I threw at it. 

If the OP stressed that the horse must hack out alone when she purchased it and didn't see it doing that, then, I'd agree with her POV. I suppose only the OP knows what the horse is like, but for £900, unless it was semi retired, the price does have some bearing on what could be reasonably expected.
		
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yes was prepared for her taking a while to settle in - however its been 6 or 7 weeks now and its not as if im expecting her to be perfect but if i can't even lead her without her barging me over then what chance do i have in the saddle?
Im not saying its all the sellers fault at all - but there were problems with her there that they obvioulsy couldn't cope with or else why have bought her from over 250 miles away and then left her turned out for 6 - 8  months not earning her keep? Should also mention that i am her 4th home in 4 years so im not the first person to not be able to cope with her and the seller must of been aware of previous problems and also that she had experince with the other haffy of it not coping in new home and being returned as dangerous and unuseable - she must have half expected or even in passing wondered if this one would do the same?


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## wakijaki (10 September 2013)

lachlanandmarcus said:



			They're not bad as a breed :-((((
And they are extremely versatile! But one of unknown breeding who's in a trekking centre and for sale for £900 is
Unlikely to be one of the ones that's had the firm and fair handling they like most strong and clever cobs require every day. 

To give an indication, my GB girl with great bloodlines and temperament cost £2500 as an unbroken 3 yo. I could have bought loads already broken for £1k but also that they wouldn't have the background you need with any sparky cob eg Haflingers or welsh Ds.

Don't diss the breed, the quality properly treated end is truly magical.
		
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nope certainitly dont mean to diss the breed as you say  but i meant that after joining a few haffy pages and speaking to other people about thiers - there does seem to be a stereotype - rightly or wrongly that they are fab ponies but not for novices, first owners, need firm experienced handling ect. Have also spoken to a few people who have had many if not all or more of the problems with their haffys although most said that once you have them cracked they truely give you thier heart and will do anything for you. 
I have seen lots of haffys up for sale from £800 - £1500 and she was orgininally advertised at £1500 months ago


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## wakijaki (11 September 2013)

Spring Feather said:



			I rehabbed all of the horses I planned to sell so that they became used to being private horses again and they were all super by the time I started rehoming them; most went to people who knew them, who had ridden them here and most of the riders were beginner/novice riders and these were their first horses.  It just takes a bit of time to get them used to a different way of life.

  Do you have an experienced buyer friend (that you could bribe with lunch) into pony-hunting with you?
		
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yes thanks for the advice - i have certainitly learned from my mistake in that respect and i made many of the standard veiwing and buying mistakes that people make....it wont be one i make again but if nothing else - asking for help with hacking out with local people has helped me make new horsey friends so i now have a good back up - saying this they are too busy to have time to give the pony what she needs now as she needs a lot of time spent on her - but for a couple of hours pony hunting i have lots of experinced volunteers - which is great as i dont drive! 
I think you did the right thing by rehabbing your horses so they had the best start in their new home - i think the problem here is she has been passed about so much and quickly sold on each time, was in a private home - not suitable due to bucking in the school - sold to trekking center as happy hacker and then used for a few months and turned out. So not only is she being asked to come back in to work after a long break - she is also alone and somewhere new. 
Im not blaming the pony - its not her fault. But i think the seller couldnt wait to get rid of her quick enough and didnt care about what would happen afterwards or if she would be getting a suitable home to deal with her problems.


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## wakijaki (11 September 2013)

Spot_On said:



			I haven't read all replies.

Is sending her to be re-schooled with a more experienced rider an option for you? Or having a trainer come to you to ride? 

One of mine was a massive pain in the bum to hack alone, borderline dangerous as had spent years following other horses. I managed to get help from a trainer and, while didn't manage to 100% cure the issue, it helped 98% and boosted my confidence in dealing with the situation when the napping/broncing started to make a re-appearance.
		
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yes sending her to be reschooled is not an option - most places charge upwards of £80 a week and theres just no way i can afford that unless i dont pay my bills or put food on the table.
I could get a freelance riding instructor come out maybe but that still wouldnt help with the problems i have just getting her tacked up - she has now started barging and kicking badly when i try to saddle her and its impossible to safely lead her just out of the field to be tied up ready.


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## wakijaki (11 September 2013)

PollyP99 said:



			Second this about the breed, we had one stay with us over summer and it was the sweetest horse to ride and handle.  Looked like a cuddly bear and acted like one too, my non horsey OH loved him - not a bolshy bone in his (large) body.

Sorry to hear of your issues op, it is sad for the pony too, hope it doesn't continue to be bounced around.
		
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i know - totally understand this and that is why i have stuck with it for 6 weeks even though every single day has been a battle with herand if i had had her on a weeks trial she would of gone back but i thought she needed more time, then everyone said get her checked out for pain so i aranged all that. So now im just left with - thats just the way she is


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## wakijaki (11 September 2013)

showpony said:



			Did you tell the trekking centre that you wanted the horse for hacking out alone???
If I was really keen on the horse I would take them up on offer of taking him back for some re-schooling with them agreeing to take the horse back if still no improvement.

TBH OP - Most horses that would come from such an environment would not be used to hacking out without company - its not to say that it isn't fixable... buy will take some work to build his confidence... but you have to decide IF you want to put the work in.

If things don't work out suggest you take your instructor with you or someone very experienced to view ... Make sure you tack up yourself , see the horse being caught, ride it in the arena, field, road alone & with company... Basically test it for everything you would want to do.

Best of luck.
		
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thank you


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## showpony (11 September 2013)

Did you not ask about her past prior to purchase?
am really sorry if this sounds blunt but am feeling sorry for the horse right now. I don't think you have mentioned one positive thing about her the whole thread.... You obviously haven't clicked ..... But horse seems far from a monster, just needs some confidence building...


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## wakijaki (11 September 2013)

wakijaki said:





BayLady said:



			Playing devils advocate, what if the seller didn't actually know about the not hacking alone? It's a trekking centre, it's not unreasonable that they'd have never tried to take the mare out on her own. That's not misrepresentation, it's lack of knowledge.  Unless the buyer specifically asked "does this horse hack safely alone", I don't think there's a huge amount of comeback to be had.  
Yes i did ask this and she assured me that she would go alone - that she had hacked her out herself alone and also tha she was ridden regularly by a 10 year old girl on the trekking trails alone .

Also, there is a certain amount of buyer beware in any purchase of this type. 
Buyer beware only applies to private sellers - as she sold in course of business the sale of goods act 1979 applies. 

And finally, and this is by the by but it may have some bearing in terms of the buyers expectations, £900 is the budget for a project horse, whether it's a youngster to bring on or an older horse that needs retraining. Even in this market.
		
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Yes i asked and asked again 'does she hack alone' and was told yes and yes again. She reassured me that she had personally hacked her out alone on the roads and that she was fequently taken up the mountains trails alone with a 10 year old girl - this would be the same girl that inboxed me after i bought her and said she was good for her but bucked her friend off twice in one day

also as i said - i was offered 2 project horses free of charge before i bought my 'quiet riding mare' and there are always plenty of free to good home projects around - there is also a rescue place where they do some work with project horses and then loan them out to suitable horses so if it was a 'project ' horse i was after - i wouldn't off paid any money for one.
No i accept that £900 isn't alot - but in the current market i have seen very similar horses going for the same or less money but the problem i had was transport whereas the trekking center couldnt wait to deliver her to me. I spent hours and hours trawling through horse for sale sites so i know that you can get a decent horse for that amount of money - i just ended up falling for the wrong one.
		
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## FestiveFuzz (11 September 2013)

Just wanted to add 6-7 weeks isn't that long for a horse to settle, some can take upwards of 6 months to a year to really settle in to a new environment. Especially as with your mare it's not just a new home but a new way of life to adjust to. 

I've had my new boy about 7 weeks now and whilst he's not quite as bolshy/spooky as he was when he arrived but we've still got a long way to go and he's definitely still a more extreme version of the horse I went to view and consequently bought. 

I also don't understand the relevance of the other haffy's situation. Why should the seller have assumed that your mare would be returned just because this other buyer had issues with their new horse?

If I were you I would go back to basics with her and start establishing some boundaries as it sounds like she's taking the p with you at the moment. Even if you do intend to take legal action against the seller I suspect it'll be a long, drawn-out process so it would be good if you could get to a stage of at least handling her without fearing injury (maybe with the help of an instructor) as it doesn't sound like you're in a position to pay someone to look after her until you are able to send her back. 

I really do wish you the best of luck whatever you decide to do as it must be awful having a horse you can't seem to bond with.

ETA - I'm still dubious as to whether you can get a "decent" first horse/confidence giver/bombproof happy hack for £900. I know when I was personally looking for a confidence giver all the ones I found were around the £3k - £4k mark as horses like that are worth their weight in gold, though perhaps our definitions of "decent" horses differ.


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## Pearlsasinger (11 September 2013)

wakijaki said:



			Have been on the phone to bhs this morning and they said that as the seller would be classed as a dealer as she has other horses up for sale in the course of her business then I'm protected under sale of goods act 1979 and within my rights to reject the horse and seek a refund within 2 years... For the first 6 months I don't have to prove the bad behaviour myself. 
She recommended that I contact the seller by registered post and formally reject the horse and in the meantime to say I will take reasonable care of its day to day needs and give the seller 7 to 14 days to collect and give back my money.  Other than that I can take her to small claims court and also ask back for any expense I have incurred since day one.  
So this Is what I am going to do. 
I'm fully aware that horses change in different environments and that she isn't a robot but I also would never have bought the horse if I thought she would be so dangerous to handle. 
I was offered project horses free so there's no way I would of spent £900 on a project.
		
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That sounds like your best course of action.  The horse should never have been sold to you.
Good luck, OP, let us know how you get on.


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## wakijaki (11 September 2013)

showpony said:



			Did you not ask about her past prior to purchase?
am really sorry if this sounds blunt but am feeling sorry for the horse right now. I don't think you have mentioned one positive thing about her the whole thread.... You obviously haven't clicked ..... But horse seems far from a monster, just needs some confidence building...
		
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yes i did ask about her past and the seller told me she bought her from a woman who wanted something more forward going to share with her son. She never mentioned anything about her having had so many homes in such a short space of time or the fact that the woman didnt feel safe putting her children on her because she bucked.
I am not trying to paint the horse as a monster - i am saying that i am not experienced enough now or confident enough to deal with problems like kicking, barging, pushing me over. napping, bucking, spinning bolting and i would never of bought a horse with any of these problems. I was promised a quiet mare that was safe and easy to ride.
I also know that if she is doing all these things then she is unhappy and doesn't feel safe and settled with me and its also not fair on her.
Also as i have also said - its not just me - i have had professional people in to help me make sure there was no pain related issues in and every single person has had a massive battle with her. It took two farriers to shoe her as i couldnt hold her. One is in his fifties and well renowned for being an excellent farrier - he really struggled with her even though i was also told she was good to shoe.
The back specialist - a 'Corley Animal Spinal Therapist' also in her fifties has been around horses since she was a toddler and her father is a well respected equine behaviourist author - also struggled with her. She refused to go near her hind legs as she kicked out so violently. She said she needed sending away for 6 - 8 weeks for training as all she wanted to do was pick a fight with everyone. same with the dentist and same with everyone who has tried to handle her.
As for postive things - she always comes straight over to me and she doesn't bite. Oh and she looks so pretty - that is about it on that side of things as in everyway she is difficult to handle.


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## wakijaki (11 September 2013)

if the seller wont take her back or it goes to court and i lose then i will see if the rescue center will take her on as at least then i know she will get the care and training that she needs and they will be very picky about who they rehome to. 
At the moment i think i am at least entitled to try to recoup my money from her as she isnt what was promised and if i am to get another one then i need that money back. Its not as if im moaning because they said she had a nice canter and its too bouncy - these are real issues and they are dangerous ones as you just dont know what she is going to do next. How much worse is it going to get unless i throw x amount of money on this that and the other just to try to get her to be the pony i was told she was? What if even after all that she is still the same as she just isnt happy with me? 
I know all horses are instinct driven but i managed just fine to hack out alone on a 17.2 tb x id while leading another pony down roads and down to the beach without endangering myself or others.


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## wakijaki (11 September 2013)

GG2B said:



			Just wanted to add 6-7 weeks isn't that long for a horse to settle, some can take upwards of 6 months to a year to really settle in to a new environment. Especially as with your mare it's not just a new home but a new way of life to adjust to. 

I've had my new boy about 7 weeks now and whilst he's not quite as bolshy/spooky as he was when he arrived but we've still got a long way to go and he's definitely still a more extreme version of the horse I went to view and consequently bought. 

I also don't understand the relevance of the other haffy's situation. Why should the seller have assumed that your mare would be returned just because this other buyer had issues with their new horse?

If I were you I would go back to basics with her and start establishing some boundaries as it sounds like she's taking the p with you at the moment. Even if you do intend to take legal action against the seller I suspect it'll be a long, drawn-out process so it would be good if you could get to a stage of at least handling her without fearing injury (maybe with the help of an instructor) as it doesn't sound like you're in a position to pay someone to look after her until you are able to send her back. 

I really do wish you the best of luck whatever you decide to do as it must be awful having a horse you can't seem to bond with.

ETA - I'm still dubious as to whether you can get a "decent" first horse/confidence giver/bombproof happy hack for £900. I know when I was personally looking for a confidence giver all the ones I found were around the £3k - £4k mark as horses like that are worth their weight in gold, though perhaps our definitions of "decent" horses differ.
		
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yep i understand she may take longer to settle than others - especially if she has been passed about so much - however if i could see any improvement then it wouldnt be such an issue - its spiralling out of control as the more i handle her and she hurts me the more nervous i get- which in turn she picks up on.
the bhs legal advice was to formally reject the horse giving the seller 7 - 14 days to come and pay back the money and collect her. In the meantime I would obvioulsy check her everyday and see to her basic needs - ie food and water and that she is in good health.
Im not saying the other haflingers case is relevant and prehaps i didnt word it properly but she has had this happen before - same situation, same problems and she took the horse back. So i don't see why is so ready to say i am making these problems up - she has already been there and done this with the last one she sold. 
As for going back to basics with her - this isn't an option as as soon as she gets out of the grazing field she switches - almost like when you bring a stallion out to a mare. The back lady said lead her out for walks so she gets used to the area and it would build up the confidence of both of us and build a bond - well she almost kills me just trying to get her out the field let alone trying to lead her down the road when she is pushing and barging and stopping and bucking. If someone gets hurt then that would be my fault
Also - i work, i have a family and children - if something happened to me because i took that risk it just doesn't bare thinking about. Yes i know being around horses always incurrs some risk - but you normally get something out of it too - rather than brusies and torn muscles.


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## wakijaki (11 September 2013)

Pearlsasinger said:



			That sounds like your best course of action.  The horse should never have been sold to you.
Good luck, OP, let us know how you get on.
		
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thank you


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## Adopter (11 September 2013)

You seem to have good advice from bhs now, do hope it sorts itself out for you, and your seller takes the pony back.

I am sure we all feel for yet another pony who has not been handled and trained correctly so ends up being past around and never settling.  The whole situation is so sad.


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## smellsofhorse (11 September 2013)

I think this poor mare is miss understood.
She lived at a yard with lots of horse friends, she trkked out in a group and knew the routes.
She knew the staff and regular riders.

She probably was suitable for a novice and 100% in all ways.

Then shes gets taken a way, to a strange yard, with strange people and horses and asked to ride out alone.

She needs time to settle, get used to her new owner and home.
You need to be firm but fair.
Yes some horse do take a move like this in theor stide but often even the saints have to be forgiven a few issues.

So whether she is suiatable for a novice at the moment and whether you could send her back i dont know.


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## JulesRules (11 September 2013)

I feel so sorry for the poor pony. She sounds scared and unsettled and being passed from pillar to post has probably made it worse. 

I also feel sorry for Op. Dealing with this situation day in and day out can be no fun.

If she will come over to you in the field how about just taking some brushes etc out to the field and spend some time up there grooming her and talking to her. Hopefully doing this for a few days might be less stressful for you both and help you to bond and gain her trust. Even if you go the legal route I doubt anything will happen overnight so might be worth a go.


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## charlie76 (11 September 2013)

JulesRules said:



			I feel so sorry for the poor pony. She sounds scared and unsettled and being passed from pillar to post has probably made it worse. 

I also feel sorry for Op. Dealing with this situation day in and day out can be no fun.

If she will come over to you in the field how about just taking some brushes etc out to the field and spend some time up there grooming her and talking to her. Hopefully doing this for a few days might be less stressful for you both and help you to bond and gain her trust. Even if you go the legal route I doubt anything will happen overnight so might be worth a go.
		
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I doubt that the pony is scared and unsettled. For £900 from a riding school , the riding school just wanted shot of her, from the messages from the kids that used to ride her she was obviously unsuitable for the riding school so they offered her at a cheap price to get her sold. 
She sounds like a typical pony that doesn't really enjoy  riding school work so develops naughty behaviour problems. Once these are installed it takes a lot of hard work and time to uninstall ! 
I ran a riding school and I am all to familiar with the types of ponies that simply don't like the work. We usually were able to decide to sell them before their issues got too bad but if not then they were sold cheaply however HONESTLY with all issues disclosed.


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## Goldenstar (11 September 2013)

We should all feel sorry for the pony she has been failed the most .
From a strong " working" breed that needs proper firm clear training at the start she probally never had the chance to be the best she can be .
OP makes no mentain of a proper vetting or proper veterinary imput on the issues IMO its vital that inexperianced people do not miss out a proper vetting and proper veterinary imput into issues they are having.
A back lady is not qualified to say a horse has no pain issues indeed it's not legal for her to do so .
Who knows what may be wrong with this poor horse if it did not get a proper vetting.
Op is doing exactly what she must do using all her energy and focus to return the horse and get her money back.
But poor horse you have to feel a lot of compassion for her.


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## wakijaki (11 September 2013)

No I totally understand about how everyone feels about the horse.  I have had issues with her since day one but been determined for her sake to give her a forever home.  I had everyone say to me in the first week to send her back and I have stubbornly refused to and battled on everyday for another 6 weeks because I wanted to do what was best for her.  She is such a sweet mare in the field. Always the first to greet and show an interest. 
However the second I take her out the field she changes and I have to accept that I need to put my safety and that of my friend first and also that for whatever reason she isn't happy with me handling her so that isn't the best home for her unless I'm just going to keep her as a pet to just stroke over the fence now and then. 
If I had bought a show jumper who refused to even attempt to jump our a racer who couldn't gallop or a horse to drive that was petrified of a cart then it would all still be the same.... I bought a quiet riding pony and I wouldn't of taken her on if given to me the way she is now. 
Yes maybe she will settle down more in time and maybe I can spend the next few months or years trying to get her just to be able to lead her out the field and still not being able to do anything with her except smooth her over the fence. 
I feel sorry for her as well but what option so I have... Just give her away so she gets a good home and I'm then left with no horse and no money?


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## Goldenstar (11 September 2013)

OP did you have the horse vetted for purchase .


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## Orangehorse (11 September 2013)

OP, you sound very sensible and have considered all the options, and in your position I would do the same.

You didn't take on a "project" you bought a pony to ride.  Every horse or pony I have bought from whatever source, private or a dealer, I have been able to get on ride straight away.


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## swampdonkey (11 September 2013)

Although I do really feel for you OP I do think that all the warnings were there and you either thought you could change the mare or didn't read between the lines.
I think I am right in saying that you were aware that the horse bucked as you were told she bucked in the school, if a horse uses bucking as a evading technique it will use it hacking, schooling or anywhere else it would be.  If it bucks, it bucks!
I remember reading also that they told you she would hack alone with some persistence or similar wording, (can't find it now)
It is a shame for you and the horse but it sounds like they did tell you (although maybe not in so many words) that this horse could be difficult.
I hope you get this situation settled one way or another as this can be no fun for you or pony.
Maybe next time you are looking to buy you will listen out for the warnings that it sounds like the seller gave you.
Try not to hate your horse, as although I know she is making your life miserable its not her fault.  If you feel angry or hateful towards her she WILL know, and therefore act accordingly.


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## DIESELSUPERSTAR (11 September 2013)

I know this feeling :-( 

A very good friend of mine suggested the perfect horse for me, quite pricey and also only 4- I was looking for something the opposite... So I went up and did everything with him, hacked alone, in the field, in the school, in the stable and he was perfect. 

Under a bit of pressure I bought him and brought him home, all of a sudden he's bolshy, rears and hates being left alone. I was devastated and Lost confidence. Then to find that the owner was telling little snippets of lies to me, ie, told me the saddle cost her£1000 and i could have it for £400... Then a friend told me she had sold her the saddle at £300 one year previously.. This owner was lovely but goes to show people will do anything for money and anything for a sale. 

Luckily my boy is turning a corner and I now believe he's perfect for me, still a little naughty when left but over the winter I think this will improve.

There is nothing worse than getting excited for a horse you believe to be perfect for you, to then find its the opposite. I would love to see you push through, initially with ground work as this is most important, do not ride her if you feel unsafe but at the end of it I she isn't for you then cut your losses and push for her to go back, if unsuccessful try selling her on as a brood mare or to a very experienced home. Unfortunately your not likely to get much money for her. 

Sorry to hear your in such a predicament and hope you get this sorted ASAP!!!


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## wench (11 September 2013)

I think getting a vet out for a full work up would be a good step...


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## applecart14 (11 September 2013)

wakijaki said:



			Have been on the phone to bhs this morning and they said that as the seller would be classed as a dealer as she has other horses up for sale in the course of her business then I'm protected under sale of goods act 1979 and within my rights to reject the horse and seek a refund within 2 years... For the first 6 months I don't have to prove the bad behaviour myself. .
		
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I once reported someone who was selling a horse I'd gone to try as I believed the horse to be stolen as she didn't have its papers nor the correct sized bit or even a correctly sized saddle and no rugs for it.  She hadn't told me she was a dealer, she strongly gave me the impression she was selling privately and even said she was a livery at this particular yard.  When horsewatch and then  local constabularly became involved they found out she was a dealer who wasn't paying tax and she got into hot water for being an unregistered (and non tax paying business).  the horse wasn't stolen but she didn't have the papers as she'd not paid the bloke who she'd bought it off outright for the horse and was going to pay him the balance when she'd sold the said horse.  (We ended up buying Billy and he was fantastic and I loved him greatly for the sadly short time we owned him (he dropped down dead from a heart attack 2 1/2 years later).

But what I am saying is in any correspondence to her you might like to say that as she is a dealer (and include and emphasise the words 'presumably registered and paying tax') and this alone might be enough to scare her into action.


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## BayLady (11 September 2013)

To give an indication, my GB girl with great bloodlines and temperament cost £2500 as an unbroken 3 yo. I could have bought loads already broken for £1k but also that they wouldn't have the background you need with any sparky cob eg Haflingers or welsh Ds.

Don't diss the breed, the quality properly treated end is truly magical.
		
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To add to the comments about the breed not being bad overall, my recently backed 4yo Haflinger x Welsh D is a total superstar and sweetheart. He is going to be a cracking allround in a couple of years. He'd be very easy to mess up though, he's sharp and sensitive and needs firm but fair and consistent handling.  I'm lucky in that his last owner did a really nice job with his ground manners and the actual backing process, so he has no issues at all.  As long as he understands your request, or has room to figure it out without being pressured, he'll move heaven and earth to give the right answer.  

OP, it does sound like the horse wasn't truly represented to you, and as a result neither you or the horse are happy.  I hope that you can get some recourse from the seller, but I suspect it won't be easy as the BHS helpline made it sound.

For what it's worth, when I went to buy my boy I had a typed list of questions to ask the seller, running to about 6 pages long!  They covered everything from health (has had teeth done, what like for feet handling and trimming, vaccinations) to basic management (how kept, routine, is ok in stable with company and alone, live out all winter, feed), to ridden experience (when backed, how backed, what done under saddle, hack alone, in company) and anything else I could think of. I asked the seller every single questions, wrote down the answer and got them to sign the sheets at the end to verify that the answers were as given.  I also had 2 people witness it.  It might sound long winded but it covered my back and also reassured the seller that I was serious about the purchase.  I also had a full vetting before buying.  It might be worth considering something like this for when you next look.  It's not always going to save you from bad sellers or buying the wrong horse, but it reduces the possibility.


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## JulesRules (11 September 2013)

charlie76 said:



			I doubt that the pony is scared and unsettled.
		
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I think it's pretty unusual for any horse that has changed hands/homes not to be unsettled by it. My girl is very calm and settled well when I bought her. However with hindsight it's obvious she took a good 6 months to feel really comfortable with me and the change of yard. 

I'm not saying pony isn't taking the mickey, and seeing how far she can push op. However OP has stated she will hack OK in company but not alone. Why? Most probably fear, and in this case displayed by fight as opposed to flight.

Just my take on things


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## onemoretime (11 September 2013)

I take it that the Trekking Centre is a business and under the Sale of Goods Act you have a right to return the horse for a full refund.  Speak to Trading Standards.


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## onemoretime (11 September 2013)

True Amymay the  buyer has a right under the Sale of Goods Act to return the horse and get a full refund and also any costs incurred.


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## onemoretime (11 September 2013)

Be very positive OP and make it clear to the seller that you are sending her back and want a refund.  You have had good 
sound advice from the BHS and tell the seller this.  Make it very clear that you will not take no for an answer, they must take
her back.


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## Wagtail (11 September 2013)

Where is the horse kept now? Does she have company?


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## cambrica (11 September 2013)

I really feel for you OP and hope that you get the outcome you want.
I also feel for the pony. She really only knows one thing and never has to think for herself. The trekking centre should know better and realise that she needs completely rehabilitating. I doubt she really knows how to lunge, school or anything other than follow the tail in front. It's sad as she is in a completely alien environment, must be scared, confused and feeling rather more alone. Her fighting you is a sure sign of that. 
I hope the trekking centre act on their responsibility to this mare or I can see her future looking pretty bleak. 
I would be really angry if I were you, for her sake aswell.


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## MagicMelon (11 September 2013)

I cant imagine thats right that you can return a horse for a full refund within TWO YEARS?!  Thats ridiculous!  

Its a hard one because is she actually proven to be considered a dealer?  Please dont assume that the horse is a total nutjob just because its been naughty with you, loads of horses test their new owner and some are far cleverer (ie. naughty!) than others.  One of mine that I sold a few years ago was the type of horse that you had to earn his respect, I made this clear to the person I sold him to that I knew he'd test her, to the point that I even told her that I'd refund her if he proved too much for her!  He was returned to me for a full refund within 4 days...!!  Apparently he'd been absolutely vile to her, biting her, kicking, pinning her against the wall, she couldn't even tack him up to try riding him - NONE of this he did with me, I was rather shocked! She clearly wasn't very confident and he picked up on that. I ended up selling him to a 14yr old girl who he just gelled with, she still has him now and loves him to pieces.  So remember horses can be VERY different depending on the person.


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## Flyermc (11 September 2013)

Ive read this thread through and i feel really sorry for the pony. You mention that a rehab place might take her, is this an option instead or returning her? I know you'd loose your money (im not rich either, £900 for me is a lot to loose) but im not sure i could return a horse to an uncertain future, its not her fault.

Could the rehab place swap her for a project thats ready for a new home?


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## nich (11 September 2013)

Just want to add that while it may be common to have problems with ex trail or riding centre horses, it not the rule.  I bought my first horse on a riding holiday in Northern Ireland, completely on impulse.  She was one of only a few IDx or ish that they had among a lot of nose to tail cobs.  I tried her in every scenario including a beach ride where I had to pull up from a fast canter due to nervous novices, EXCEPT riding alone.  As a novice owner myself I wasn't even aware of napping.  The people who sold her said she was too good for a riding school, but I stuck her in one on working livery for a year anyway.  They loved her - she would go first or last, and was just as happy alone.  I then took her out of the school, and in total had ten and a half wonderful years with her.  She was just about perfect, my niece could ride her off the lead rein aged four, and I could do dressage, jump or hack.  So please folks don't dismiss horses that started life in a trekking centre!


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## Highlands (11 September 2013)

It sounds like you have brought a very green pony, haffys are ultra clever and can take full advantage of this. You do not want this sort of challenge now and a first pony, no. If you only paid £900 then alarm bells would have sounded for me, ponies that do everything are normally expensive unless you are lucky! 

With some firm handling then yes the situation could be reversed.

Two options

Keep and be prepared to work, get a decent instructor and send mare away with instructor for schooling

Sell

I think your seller may say its too late


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## DIESELSUPERSTAR (11 September 2013)

Some of you are so quick to judge. This owner is clearly in distress, has maybe been a little bit 'in the clouds' when buying but aren't we all?? ..i know I am!! And by the sounds of it whether the horse should be felt sorry for or not, at the moment she isn't safe to handle. Hafflingers are strong animals, beautiful, but any horse when it knows its strength is a danger to itself and anyone handling it. Iv no doubt that the owner could sort these problems... But why should she? Continue thinking of your children, do NOT put yourself in a dangerous situation. This horse needs some serious rehab from someone who has full confidence and experience with behavioural problems along with the time and money to go with. With regards to price????? My super sweet mare who is anyones dream to hack out and do most things with, and the most beautiful manners was up for £1000 and did not sell - the market at the moment is terrible and a price like that would be about right for a riding school horse. Persue getting your money back but unfortunetly you may have to come to terms with the fact that she may need to be sold on for a much smaller price, if not given away. We all make mistakes, don't feel alone and don't feel like you are failing the horse, I wish you all the best and hope it works out for both horse and owner!!! Xx


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## Noodles_3 (11 September 2013)

DIESELSUPERSTAR said:



			Some of you are so quick to judge. This owner is clearly in distress, has maybe been a little bit 'in the clouds' when buying but aren't we all?? ..i know I am!! And by the sounds of it whether the horse should be felt sorry for or not, at the moment she isn't safe to handle. Hafflingers are strong animals, beautiful, but any horse when it knows its strength is a danger to itself and anyone handling it. Iv no doubt that the owner could sort these problems... But why should she? Continue thinking of your children, do NOT put yourself in a dangerous situation. This horse needs some serious rehab from someone who has full confidence and experience with behavioural problems along with the time and money to go with. With regards to price????? My super sweet mare who is anyones dream to hack out and do most things with, and the most beautiful manners was up for £1000 and did not sell - the market at the moment is terrible and a price like that would be about right for a riding school horse. Persue getting your money back but unfortunetly you may have to come to terms with the fact that she may need to be sold on for a much smaller price, if not given away. We all make mistakes, don't feel alone and don't feel like you are failing the horse, I wish you all the best and hope it works out for both horse and owner!!! Xx
		
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This totally!


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## Leo Walker (11 September 2013)

DIESELSUPERSTAR said:



			Some of you are so quick to judge. This owner is clearly in distress, has maybe been a little bit 'in the clouds' when buying but aren't we all?? ..i know I am!! And by the sounds of it whether the horse should be felt sorry for or not, at the moment she isn't safe to handle. Hafflingers are strong animals, beautiful, but any horse when it knows its strength is a danger to itself and anyone handling it. Iv no doubt that the owner could sort these problems... But why should she? Continue thinking of your children, do NOT put yourself in a dangerous situation. This horse needs some serious rehab from someone who has full confidence and experience with behavioural problems along with the time and money to go with. With regards to price????? My super sweet mare who is anyones dream to hack out and do most things with, and the most beautiful manners was up for £1000 and did not sell - the market at the moment is terrible and a price like that would be about right for a riding school horse. Persue getting your money back but unfortunetly you may have to come to terms with the fact that she may need to be sold on for a much smaller price, if not given away. We all make mistakes, don't feel alone and don't feel like you are failing the horse, I wish you all the best and hope it works out for both horse and owner!!! Xx
		
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second this! I tried to help a friend with a similar horse and it fractured my spine and put me in intensive care for 3 weeks with the prognosis that I'd struggle to walk in future. I can walk, but we are talking tens of thousands of pounds that I've lost already, and it will be a very long time before I'm fit to work full time again, and that will be at a much lower lever. I've been told I should NEVER ride again either  And I didnt have kids! I'm an instructor and could have no way been considered a novice rider. Just something to bear in mind


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## madmav (12 September 2013)

Gloi said:



			She sounds a lot like my first pony who came from a trekking centre via a riding school. My dad, who knew nothing of horses bought him for me because I said I liked him, though I hadn't the experience at the time to know what he'd be like as I'd only ever ridden in a riding school. I was 13 at the time. He'd obviously never been schooled or ridden alone before but fortunately I was just glad to have him and was as pig headed as he was. I used to set myself a target of how far I was going to get up the track and try and make it a bit further each day. He would stop, squeal, spin and gallop home and then we'd start again. Sometimes my friends would drag him or follow with a lunge whip. Eventually we started to win and after 6 months I could do anything with him and rode him every second I wasn't at school. I learned more from that pony than I did from any riding school or any other I've had since.
		
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I could have written this post courtesy of the stroppy Connemara bought for me by my father a 100 years ago when neither of us knew anything about horses. Ex-riding school little nappy, bucking sod. Don't know how or why I battled on, but I did. Ignorance of youth. Wouldn't do it now. He turned into a lovely pony.  But definitely not a great first buy.
As for you dear OP, so sorry you have this dilemma. If I were you (speaking at advanced age rather than me as callow youth) cut your losses and try and get your money back. Alternatively, sell, with a genuine ad, and then try for another. Very best of luck.


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## Adopter (12 September 2013)

FrankieCob said:



			second this! I tried to help a friend with a similar horse and it fractured my spine and put me in intensive care for 3 weeks with the prognosis that I'd struggle to walk in future. I can walk, but we are talking tens of thousands of pounds that I've lost already, and it will be a very long time before I'm fit to work full time again, and that will be at a much lower lever. I've been told I should NEVER ride again either  And I didnt have kids! I'm an instructor and could have no way been considered a novice rider. Just something to bear in mind 

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What a terrible experience for you, and yes your post reminds everyone that we should all remember that however much we want to love our horses their strength and basic flight nature always make riding and handling unpredictable, especially when problems arise.


OP do continue to do as BHS advise. 

 If you do unfortunately end up without the money to purchase a replacement, have a look on the welfare organisation sites for a long term adoption, you will get support and a pony who has undergone rehabilitation. I am on the Blue Cross Borrowers Facebook group and the ex rescues do achieve fantastic things.  WHW and Redwings have super horses and ponies for loan too.


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## rhylis (12 September 2013)

I own a haflinger who also spent some time as a riding school pony, she was sacked for bad behaviour! After her stint in the riding school she went to a private home from where I eventually bought her. I remember her previous owner telling me that I would spend the first 3 months actively disliking the pony and wondering if I'd made a horrible mistake! She said that Tara would test me as much as she could in true haflinger fashion, I was very lucky because Tara's previous owner helped me with advice in the early stages. Tara  can be nappy, bolshy and very bargy! She hates hacking alone and it took ages for her to form the same close bond to me that she had with her old owner. She's never going to be a straightforward pony, she has so much character and intelligence, but she's wonderful and I love her for it. 
Your pony sounds very much like Tara but I think she's learnt many ways of evading things she dosent want to do. I would say from my experiences with my gorgeous haffy that you could overcome the worst of her behaviour but she may all ways be a strongly opinionated character inclined to test you out, not all ways in a naughty way but they certainly keep you on your toes. It depends if the end result of loads of hard work and frustration results in the type of horse you want anyway?
I wish you loads of luck whatever happens, don't give up whether you manage to return your haflinger and find something more suitable or if you give her another chance.


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## wakijaki (14 September 2013)

Adopter said:



			You seem to have good advice from bhs now, do hope it sorts itself out for you, and your seller takes the pony back.

I am sure we all feel for yet another pony who has not been handled and trained correctly so ends up being past around and never settling.  The whole situation is so sad.
		
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I would hope that given the seller buys and sells and breaks and trains horses for a living that she stands a much better chance than me to actually do some work with the horse before trying to sell her on again. The fact that this is the second horse i know about that this has happened with is another reason why i want some sort of recompence - if she is not made to see that she can't get away with selling horses without making buyers aware of problems and doing any training with the horses first - then there is nothing to stop her doing it again and for someone to get very seriously hurt by purchasing a 'quiet' horse that thinks its an extra in a rodeo!


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## Adopter (14 September 2013)

wakijaki said:



			I would hope that given the seller buys and sells and breaks and trains horses for a living that she stands a much better chance than me to actually do some work with the horse before trying to sell her on again. The fact that this is the second horse i know about that this has happened with is another reason why i want some sort of recompence - if she is not made to see that she can't get away with selling horses without making buyers aware of problems and doing any training with the horses first - then there is nothing to stop her doing it again and for someone to get very seriously hurt by purchasing a 'quiet' horse that thinks its an extra in a rodeo!
		
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You are right, professionals should manage their business to protect not destroy their reputation, good luck.  Do let us know how you get on.


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## wakijaki (14 September 2013)

smellsofhorse said:



			I think this poor mare is miss understood.
She lived at a yard with lots of horse friends, she trkked out in a group and knew the routes.
She knew the staff and regular riders.

She probably was suitable for a novice and 100% in all ways.

Then shes gets taken a way, to a strange yard, with strange people and horses and asked to ride out alone.

She needs time to settle, get used to her new owner and home.
You need to be firm but fair.
Yes some horse do take a move like this in theor stide but often even the saints have to be forgiven a few issues.

So whether she is suiatable for a novice at the moment and whether you could send her back i dont know.
		
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Again - she misbehaved at the trekking center - was only used for a few months, bucked children off and was then turned out for 8 months while they tried to sell her on - in fact the seller said she wasn't happy there as it was too busy and she would be much more suited to a private home.
As i said i was willing to work with the horse with sme issues - i have spent hours with her gently overcoming her fear of being bridled. I have also spent hours with her working on picking her feet up. Other issues such as bolting, backing, spinning, napping and violently kicking out are not little issues and not ones i am prepared to deal with - if i was i would of taken on one of the free horses i was offered before buying this mare. Thanks


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## wakijaki (14 September 2013)

swampdonkey said:



			Although I do really feel for you OP I do think that all the warnings were there and you either thought you could change the mare or didn't read between the lines.
I think I am right in saying that you were aware that the horse bucked as you were told she bucked in the school, if a horse uses bucking as a evading technique it will use it hacking, schooling or anywhere else it would be.  If it bucks, it bucks!
I remember reading also that they told you she would hack alone with some persistence or similar wording, (can't find it now)
It is a shame for you and the horse but it sounds like they did tell you (although maybe not in so many words) that this horse could be difficult.
I hope you get this situation settled one way or another as this can be no fun for you or pony.
Maybe next time you are looking to buy you will listen out for the warnings that it sounds like the seller gave you.
Try not to hate your horse, as although I know she is making your life miserable its not her fault.  If you feel angry or hateful towards her she WILL know, and therefore act accordingly.
		
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Warning signs? I have found out most of the information about this mare - after the purchase as the seller either lied or omitted the truth at the time of sale. 'told me but not in so many words' - i asked all the questions and got all the answers i needed - not once was i made aware of the fact that she would be almost impossible to ride either in company or alone, not once was i told she kicks and is difficult to tack up, dangerous to lead by hand and naps and spins and bolts and backs up and is dangerous to ride either in a field, out on the road or on the beach.
I do not hate her - im sorry if it comes across that way - i feel angry at the seller and let down and i feel frustrated by the mare and by my own lack of experience that i cannot over come these problems - but again - i wasn't aware of prepared for thes issues - if it was just a few small things then maybe i could work through them with help - bu tnot when you put all the issues together and match that up to the description that i was given. Thanks


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## wakijaki (14 September 2013)

BayLady said:



			To add to the comments about the breed not being bad overall, my recently backed 4yo Haflinger x Welsh D is a total superstar and sweetheart. He is going to be a cracking allround in a couple of years. He'd be very easy to mess up though, he's sharp and sensitive and needs firm but fair and consistent handling.  I'm lucky in that his last owner did a really nice job with his ground manners and the actual backing process, so he has no issues at all.  As long as he understands your request, or has room to figure it out without being pressured, he'll move heaven and earth to give the right answer.  

OP, it does sound like the horse wasn't truly represented to you, and as a result neither you or the horse are happy.  I hope that you can get some recourse from the seller, but I suspect it won't be easy as the BHS helpline made it sound.

For what it's worth, when I went to buy my boy I had a typed list of questions to ask the seller, running to about 6 pages long!  They covered everything from health (has had teeth done, what like for feet handling and trimming, vaccinations) to basic management (how kept, routine, is ok in stable with company and alone, live out all winter, feed), to ridden experience (when backed, how backed, what done under saddle, hack alone, in company) and anything else I could think of. I asked the seller every single questions, wrote down the answer and got them to sign the sheets at the end to verify that the answers were as given.  I also had 2 people witness it.  It might sound long winded but it covered my back and also reassured the seller that I was serious about the purchase.  I also had a full vetting before buying.  It might be worth considering something like this for when you next look.  It's not always going to save you from bad sellers or buying the wrong horse, but it reduces the possibility.
		
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thanks and lovley to hear a postive haffy story! I know in the right hands they can be a brilliant loyal and verstatile breed and i wish you all the luck for the future with your boy.
Thats a great point about the list of questions - i have certainitly learnt from this experince and i know what to do next time, i also now have a great circle of horsey friends who, while they may not be able to help me with the mare, are more than willing to help me out with chosing another horse which is great as i don't drive so i was very limited about what i could go and see what i thought i saw something suitable.


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## wakijaki (14 September 2013)

MagicMelon said:



			I cant imagine thats right that you can return a horse for a full refund within TWO YEARS?!  Thats ridiculous!  

Its a hard one because is she actually proven to be considered a dealer?  Please dont assume that the horse is a total nutjob just because its been naughty with you,
		
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thats what the bhs said - although within the first 6 months you dont have to prove the horse behaves in the way you say - after the six months you would have to prove that the horse is different to how they described.
The term dealer refers to anyone who buys and sells horses in the course of their business and or trains and or rides horses as a business - she reguarly has horses up for sale - she currently has 4 on her website. She also takes in horses for breaking and training. 
I understand every horse is different ant they can change in different enviroments - however so should the seller understand this also and given that she already had issues with the horse and has previoulsy been in the same situation this year with the other haffy she sold - its frustrating that she is fobbing me off by claiming i am making the issues up.


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## wakijaki (14 September 2013)

Flyermc said:



			Ive read this thread through and i feel really sorry for the pony. You mention that a rehab place might take her, is this an option instead or returning her? I know you'd loose your money (im not rich either, £900 for me is a lot to loose) but im not sure i could return a horse to an uncertain future, its not her fault.

Could the rehab place swap her for a project thats ready for a new home?
		
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I cannot afford to lose the £900 really , not to mention i have probably spent £300 - £400 on upkeep and things for her in the meantime. The rescue center might take her in - however most of the horses they rehome would be similar to the mare so not suitable for me as i wouldnt want to end up the same situation again with a different horse.
As the seller trains and schools horses for her living then i would hope if she does take her back that she actually spends some time retraining her properly before rehoming her.


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## wakijaki (14 September 2013)

nich said:



			Just want to add that while it may be common to have problems with ex trail or riding centre horses, it not the rule.  I bought my first horse on a riding holiday in Northern Ireland, completely on impulse.  She was one of only a few IDx or ish that they had among a lot of nose to tail cobs.  I tried her in every scenario including a beach ride where I had to pull up from a fast canter due to nervous novices, EXCEPT riding alone.  As a novice owner myself I wasn't even aware of napping.  The people who sold her said she was too good for a riding school, but I stuck her in one on working livery for a year anyway.  They loved her - she would go first or last, and was just as happy alone.  I then took her out of the school, and in total had ten and a half wonderful years with her.  She was just about perfect, my niece could ride her off the lead rein aged four, and I could do dressage, jump or hack.  So please folks don't dismiss horses that started life in a trekking centre!
		
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yes i know some horses would be brilliant with this back ground - however from what i know in the past 4 years she was with novice owners who couldnt do a thing with her, went to a more experience home where the woman told me she bucked although would hack out fine, she also had issus with her being 'grumpy, mareish and difficult to handle' , then she was sold to trekking center- used for a few months, bucked children off and was turned out for 8 months while they tried to sell her - so its not as if she is trekking center trained - she was there for asuch a short time and obvioulsy didnt enjoy it


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## wakijaki (14 September 2013)

Highlands said:



			It sounds like you have brought a very green pony, haffys are ultra clever and can take full advantage of this. You do not want this sort of challenge now and a first pony, no. If you only paid £900 then alarm bells would have sounded for me, ponies that do everything are normally expensive unless you are lucky! 

With some firm handling then yes the situation could be reversed.

Two options

Keep and be prepared to work, get a decent instructor and send mare away with instructor for schooling

Sell

I think your seller may say its too late
		
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Again - according to legal advice i am covered by law to have refund of my money and also any costs incurred. £900 isnt a lot but i didn't want a pony that did everything as you said - i just wanted a quiet happy hacker. so in my area with current market - £900 is about right on the higher end of a happy hack pony.


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## wakijaki (14 September 2013)

DIESELSUPERSTAR said:



			Some of you are so quick to judge. This owner is clearly in distress, has maybe been a little bit 'in the clouds' when buying but aren't we all?? ..i know I am!! And by the sounds of it whether the horse should be felt sorry for or not, at the moment she isn't safe to handle. Hafflingers are strong animals, beautiful, but any horse when it knows its strength is a danger to itself and anyone handling it. Iv no doubt that the owner could sort these problems... But why should she? Continue thinking of your children, do NOT put yourself in a dangerous situation. This horse needs some serious rehab from someone who has full confidence and experience with behavioural problems along with the time and money to go with. With regards to price????? My super sweet mare who is anyones dream to hack out and do most things with, and the most beautiful manners was up for £1000 and did not sell - the market at the moment is terrible and a price like that would be about right for a riding school horse. Persue getting your money back but unfortunetly you may have to come to terms with the fact that she may need to be sold on for a much smaller price, if not given away. We all make mistakes, don't feel alone and don't feel like you are failing the horse, I wish you all the best and hope it works out for both horse and owner!!! Xx
		
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thank you and also yes - everyone is saying £900 isnt a lot for a horse but again - i didnt want anything to do anything fancy with  just hack safely so £900 is about right - i should also add that when she orgianlly started trying to sell the mare she was up for £1500 but i didnt know that til later. 
If i have to come to terms with losing my money i will and i will ensure she gets the best home possible. thanks so much for backing me up. x


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## wakijaki (14 September 2013)

FrankieCob said:



			second this! I tried to help a friend with a similar horse and it fractured my spine and put me in intensive care for 3 weeks with the prognosis that I'd struggle to walk in future. I can walk, but we are talking tens of thousands of pounds that I've lost already, and it will be a very long time before I'm fit to work full time again, and that will be at a much lower lever. I've been told I should NEVER ride again either  And I didnt have kids! I'm an instructor and could have no way been considered a novice rider. Just something to bear in mind 

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Frankie i am so sorry to hear of your accident. it just goes to show that it only takes a split second in which your life can be changed for you. Being around horses we all take risks as they are instinct driven animals but i have been around many horses where you know they would not try to hurt you and some lovley horses that also 'look after you' .
I had asked a much more experinced friend of mine to come round and get her ready and ride her for me and then she pulled out for the excat reasons you have stated - why should she put herself at risk? I would also never forgive myslef if one of my friends got hurt because of this mare as most of my friends have children and work to consider and wouldn't want to knowingly put them self at risk. x


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## wakijaki (14 September 2013)

Adopter said:



			What a terrible experience for you, and yes your post reminds everyone that we should all remember that however much we want to love our horses their strength and basic flight nature always make riding and handling unpredictable, especially when problems arise.


OP do continue to do as BHS advise. 

 If you do unfortunately end up without the money to purchase a replacement, have a look on the welfare organisation sites for a long term adoption, you will get support and a pony who has undergone rehabilitation. I am on the Blue Cross Borrowers Facebook group and the ex rescues do achieve fantastic things.  WHW and Redwings have super horses and ponies for loan too.
		
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Thank you that is good advice and if it comes to it i will look in to that


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## wakijaki (14 September 2013)

rhylis said:



			I own a haflinger who also spent some time as a riding school pony, she was sacked for bad behaviour! After her stint in the riding school she went to a private home from where I eventually bought her. I remember her previous owner telling me that I would spend the first 3 months actively disliking the pony and wondering if I'd made a horrible mistake! She said that Tara would test me as much as she could in true haflinger fashion, I was very lucky because Tara's previous owner helped me with advice in the early stages. Tara  can be nappy, bolshy and very bargy! She hates hacking alone and it took ages for her to form the same close bond to me that she had with her old owner. She's never going to be a straightforward pony, she has so much character and intelligence, but she's wonderful and I love her for it. 
Your pony sounds very much like Tara but I think she's learnt many ways of evading things she dosent want to do. I would say from my experiences with my gorgeous haffy that you could overcome the worst of her behaviour but she may all ways be a strongly opinionated character inclined to test you out, not all ways in a naughty way but they certainly keep you on your toes. It depends if the end result of loads of hard work and frustration results in the type of horse you want anyway?
I wish you loads of luck whatever happens, don't give up whether you manage to return your haflinger and find something more suitable or if you give her another chance.
		
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Rightly or wrongly haffys do seem to get a lot of bad press. The lady next door to me who has a few horses also has a haffy that she has loaned out and she said he has very similar personality to my girl but without the bad habits, he is also known for bucking! The seller had two haffys for sale and the other one was returned to her for the same issues i am having and she was descibed as being the more friendly one out of the pair! After asking for advice and joining a haffy page on facebook i can see that even those who keep them would all agree - they need firm and experinced handling and are not really suitable for first time ovnwers. I wouldnt let this put me off the breed and i am in no means bad mouthing them - but at this time i am not looking for something that has so much character and that can be so strong willed as i am clearly finding out i am not up to the challenge!


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## blue89 (14 September 2013)

Shysmum said:



			"Sold as Seen" means just that, and I don't think you have any comeback against it. 

I bought my last horse from a Trekking Centre, and suffered exactly what you are struggling with now. Plus rearing and plungeing - because he had never been ridden on his own. they would have taken him back, but I saw it a challenge in the end. 

I had to REALLY get tough - the longest spurs I could find, a sharp stick, and hubs wit a lungeing whip behind. Bucket of water thrown from behind got him moving forwards (eek!) and if he tried to turn round, I made him either stand for ages, or go backwards.  It took months for him to get the idea, and tho he was never that forward going, he turned into a wonderful horse, who I miss terribly after six years.
		
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Sorry to hear what you are currently going through, but sadly I do agree with " skysmum'  "Sold as Seen" you may not have anything to fall back on and also its 6 weeks down the line which doesn't help in your favour. Hopefully you can fight against "False advertisement" and possible danger to harm as the horse is not 100% as you got mislead to believe.
I really hope that you get everything sorted and let us know what happens.
just to add would you be comfortable in taking her up on the free 2 week training? if so get her to include free transportation.


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## wakijaki (14 September 2013)

blue89 said:



			Sorry to hear what you are currently going through, but sadly I do agree with " skysmum'  "Sold as Seen" you may not have anything to fall back on and also its 6 weeks down the line which doesn't help in your favour. Hopefully you can fight against "False advertisement" and possible danger to harm as the horse is not 100% as you got mislead to believe.
I really hope that you get everything sorted and let us know what happens.
just to add would you be comfortable in taking her up on the free 2 week training? if so get her to include free transportation.
		
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thanks but in regaurds to 'sold as seen' i have taken this from a legal advice website 
'Unfortunately it is a common misconception on the behalf of Professional Sellers that inserting the phrase &#8220;sold as seen&#8221; in a contract or receipt will protect them from any comeback for a physical defect, however, that is not correct for the Professional Seller.  A 2002 amendment to the Sale of Goods Act has increased and made more practical the remedies available to Buyers. A Buyer may now reject goods (a horse) at any time during a two year period after sale, as long as he brings the defect to the Seller&#8217;s attention within 2 months of discovering it. Further, the law now says that if at any stage within 6 months of the sale, the horse does not (or no longer) &#8216;conforms&#8217; with the contract, the horse will be treated as having not conformed at the time of sale and the Buyer can reject the horse or seek damages without having to demonstrate the lack of conformity. However, at any time after 6 months of the sale the Buyer will have to demonstrate the horse does not conform to the particulars of the contract.
Which is basically what the bhs legal advice was - with 6 months as long as i make the seller aware - which i have done since day 1 - I have the right to reject the horse and request a refund and i dont have to prove she is behaving in such a way. Her putting sold as seen on the receipt doesn't mean anything as long as the court would class her as a dealer - it all rests on that - if she was a private seller it would be a totally different matter. However because she acted under her business - that then also made me trust her a lot more than it would a private seller as i thought she would value her reputation and that of her business to not sell me a dangerous horse.
The offer of 2 weeks training was on the condition that i got the horse there and i assume bring the horse back - an 80 mile round trip when i don't even have a car - yet another expense then if i had to hire a horsebox for the day twice and i have no reason to trust that the woman would actually do any work with the mare or that this would make any difference to when she was returned to me.


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## blue89 (14 September 2013)

wakijaki said:



			thanks but in regaurds to 'sold as seen' i have taken this from a legal advice website 
'Unfortunately it is a common misconception on the behalf of Professional Sellers that inserting the phrase sold as seen in a contract or receipt will protect them from any comeback for a physical defect, however, that is not correct for the Professional Seller.  A 2002 amendment to the Sale of Goods Act has increased and made more practical the remedies available to Buyers. A Buyer may now reject goods (a horse) at any time during a two year period after sale, as long as he brings the defect to the Sellers attention within 2 months of discovering it. Further, the law now says that if at any stage within 6 months of the sale, the horse does not (or no longer) conforms with the contract, the horse will be treated as having not conformed at the time of sale and the Buyer can reject the horse or seek damages without having to demonstrate the lack of conformity. However, at any time after 6 months of the sale the Buyer will have to demonstrate the horse does not conform to the particulars of the contract.
Which is basically what the bhs legal advice was - with 6 months as long as i make the seller aware - which i have done since day 1 - I have the right to reject the horse and request a refund and i dont have to prove she is behaving in such a way. Her putting sold as seen on the receipt doesn't mean anything as long as the court would class her as a dealer - it all rests on that - if she was a private seller it would be a totally different matter. However because she acted under her business - that then also made me trust her a lot more than it would a private seller as i thought she would value her reputation and that of her business to not sell me a dangerous horse.
The offer of 2 weeks training was on the condition that i got the horse there and i assume bring the horse back - an 80 mile round trip when i don't even have a car - yet another expense then if i had to hire a horsebox for the day twice and i have no reason to trust that the woman would actually do any work with the mare or that this would make any difference to when she was returned to me.
		
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Wow you have defo done your research ( and I learnt something new lol  ) so I think you will have no problems getting this sorted, Good luck and keep us all updated.


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## dogatemysalad (14 September 2013)

I do not think its quite as clear cut as you think, OP. It isn't a car or a washing machine.

If, for arguments sake, you bought a horse and kept it stabled for a few weeks, fed it oats, got on as a novice rider and then took it out on a stormy day, no legislation would cover you for breaking your neck.

If the horse had an undisclosed veterinary condition or a vice, then you'd be covered. With behavioural issues, you'd have to argue that nothing you did or failed to do, didn't cause the horse's problem. 
 I know you have had experienced professionals give their opinion, so hopefully things will work out in yours and the horse's favour. Good luck with resolving this.


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## MrsNorris (14 September 2013)

OP I really feel for you, know what it feels like to dread having to deal with your horse. You were sold what you were told was a safe, novice pony and that is what you should have got. Going by the legal advice you have been given, it would seem to me to be a fairly straightforward case since you have complained about the pony's behaviour from day 1. 
Have you now formally rejected the pony? And what has been the dealers response to your rejection? 
I wish you the best of luck and hope that it gets sorted soon.


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## wakijaki (17 November 2013)

Hi just wanted to add an update on this and say thank you to everyone who replied....
Well I still have the mare and although its been difficult and at times dangerous - we are slowly forming a great partnership and I actually love her to bits now!
I did try to send her back and was all set to take the seller to court under the sale of goods act to try to recover my money. I even took a 2 week break from the mare and just checked her over the fence everyday but didnt go near her while hoping that she seller would give in and come and collect her.
But two things happened - one was a very old friend of mine who I hadnt seen for 15 years has become a horse whisper of sorts and she offered to come out and work with Lolli, the mare. I agreed but by then i was so scared of her I said Im not going near her. Anyway she came out and spent a few hours with Lolli, getting her to come to her to be caught, getting her to move around and stand still, and also she got her tacked up by just taking her time with her.
She did say she had a terrible attitude and no respect and renamed her Pollard Pony after the little brittain character vicky pollard. However watching her work with her and that Lolli didnt hurt her or do anything bad gave me the courage to keep trying. 
The other thing that happened was the flighty 2 year old filly was replaced with a quiet old gelding and the farmers daughter where she is kept moved back from norway and she has dealt with lots of these problems with her own horse so she has been on hand to help and guide me through the problems.
Im not saying its been easy and even this week i thought omg i would just love to have a normal horse! But i can now tack her up without her being tied up, mount her without her moving anywhere. Riding and the napping is still a major issue but yesterday we hacked out with friends to the beach and at one point she took the lead through the woods without being asked and we even had a canter on the beach without any bucking.
She still has moments where she says NO and she still turns fast as lightening and bolts off and bucks but these moments are rare. Im trying to keep her as soft and natural as possible, she is currently barefoot on the back and we ride bitless in the field. The aim is to get her completely bitless and barefoot and i think with our friends help we can do that.
I do a lot of groundwork with her and also lead her out in hand if we have no one to ride out with. I think she is beginning to realise that im not going to get mad at her or hurt her but i will ask her to do stuff for me and she needs to do it. I have learnt so much from her and she is actually a very loving pony under the Pollard attitude!
Im pleased to say we have had a happy outcome and i hope that with more work and trust building that the riding will get easier as my goal is to be able to safely ride her out just the two of us  xx


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## Nicnac (17 November 2013)

That's bl**dy brilliant OP! Great to read that you stuck with her and she's improved so much in a couple of months - just think what she'll be like this time next year


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## Adopter (17 November 2013)

What an interesting update and result. Well done, you give us a really good example of how to achieve a result through time, patience and good handling.

Glad to read you have people around to support you, and help your confidence.

Do keep us updated and I hope things go on improving, being able to ride on the beach sounds lovely.


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## Saneta (17 November 2013)

WOW.  Complete and utter respect to you for keeping going with this horse.  Great that you have such support around you, this update has made me cry, what a fantastic item to read to start the day!!!  Thanks for the update, onward and upward OP!!!


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## Anna* (17 November 2013)

I have just replied to this on the other board but, again, what a fantastic update! Made my morning!


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## MrsNorris (17 November 2013)

Brilliant news, well done you!


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## kinnygirl1 (17 November 2013)

Well done OP. Sounds like you are getting there now. I really admire you for not giving up as it is so hard when you are actually frightened of the horse.


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## Orangehorse (17 November 2013)

Can  only agree and say a massive Well Done for persevering, and doing so well with her.  Get your friend a huge box of chocs for christmas!


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## PollyP99 (17 November 2013)

wakijaki said:



			Hi just wanted to add an update on this and say thank you to everyone who replied....
Well I still have the mare and although its been difficult and at times dangerous - we are slowly forming a great partnership and I actually love her to bits now!
I did try to send her back and was all set to take the seller to court under the sale of goods act to try to recover my money. I even took a 2 week break from the mare and just checked her over the fence everyday but didnt go near her while hoping that she seller would give in and come and collect her.
But two things happened - one was a very old friend of mine who I hadnt seen for 15 years has become a horse whisper of sorts and she offered to come out and work with Lolli, the mare. I agreed but by then i was so scared of her I said Im not going near her. Anyway she came out and spent a few hours with Lolli, getting her to come to her to be caught, getting her to move around and stand still, and also she got her tacked up by just taking her time with her.
She did say she had a terrible attitude and no respect and renamed her Pollard Pony after the little brittain character vicky pollard. However watching her work with her and that Lolli didnt hurt her or do anything bad gave me the courage to keep trying. 
The other thing that happened was the flighty 2 year old filly was replaced with a quiet old gelding and the farmers daughter where she is kept moved back from norway and she has dealt with lots of these problems with her own horse so she has been on hand to help and guide me through the problems.
Im not saying its been easy and even this week i thought omg i would just love to have a normal horse! But i can now tack her up without her being tied up, mount her without her moving anywhere. Riding and the napping is still a major issue but yesterday we hacked out with friends to the beach and at one point she took the lead through the woods without being asked and we even had a canter on the beach without any bucking.
She still has moments where she says NO and she still turns fast as lightening and bolts off and bucks but these moments are rare. Im trying to keep her as soft and natural as possible, she is currently barefoot on the back and we ride bitless in the field. The aim is to get her completely bitless and barefoot and i think with our friends help we can do that.
I do a lot of groundwork with her and also lead her out in hand if we have no one to ride out with. I think she is beginning to realise that im not going to get mad at her or hurt her but i will ask her to do stuff for me and she needs to do it. I have learnt so much from her and she is actually a very loving pony under the Pollard attitude!
Im pleased to say we have had a happy outcome and i hope that with more work and trust building that the riding will get easier as my goal is to be able to safely ride her out just the two of us  xx
		
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fantastic well done you!  To add to your  au naturel endeavours, I've just gone treeless with my occasionally spooky broncer and first tide out she was fab, shoulder no longer blocked which I believe  causes her 'episodes' just a thought!


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## Chestnut horse (17 November 2013)

What a fantastic update, it made me smile reading this. I'm sure you will go on to have a great relationship as you are both beginning to understand and trust each other. Wishing you years of happy horsey times together.


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## Pinkvboots (17 November 2013)

So happy for you its great to hear your making great progress you should be very proud of yourself, before I read your update I was going to recommend Blazing Saddles they take on horses with all sorts of issues, someone I know sent a horse to them for about a month and she came back a different horse, sounds like you are doing fine on your own good luck x


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## Noodles_3 (17 November 2013)

Such a great update! Really pleased for you Op  we need pictures of Lolli! X


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## MadBlackLab (17 November 2013)

Lovely story. I read the post and I'm so glad its starting to work out for you and you are taking time and patience with this mare. I hope the rest of your relationship will be just as positive


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## JJones (17 November 2013)

That's lovely to hear that you decided to keep trying with her. Lovely update.


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## Honey08 (17 November 2013)

Really nice update.  Mares like these often turn into the nicest, sweetest creatures once you've formed a bond and they trust you.  I look forward to more updates.


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## rhylis (17 November 2013)

So glad it's working out for you both! It took me a while to bond with my haffy mare and I didn't face nearly as many problems as you have with yours. You've done brilliantly and I'm so pleased for you.


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## MiJodsR2BlinkinTite (17 November 2013)

Cortez said:



			I'm afraid you are experiencing a very common result of buying A. a trekking horse, which very likely IS 100% easy and quiet in that environment, but not when asked to perform a totally alien set of behaviours, and B. a Haflinger, which tend to be bargy, opinionated so-and-so's unless handled, fed and worked in a businesslike way. Rather than trying to return the horse, which may very well not be possible, why don't you get some experienced, professional help and learn how to manage the horse? It is possible: she is not a monster, just needs proper handling and management. See it as a challenge and a learning opportunity and you might just end up with a wonderful little horse that you can be proud of.
		
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Sorry, have not read all posts on here, but this horse/pony sounds EXACTLY like my boy when I first got him - on loan from a trekking centre. 

Unfortunately horses that have been in a big herd like this only know one thing that that's to follow the bum ahead....... and when I bought my boy he'd never, to my knowledge, either seen the inside of a school OR gone out anywhere on his own!

So we had a lot of work to do!!!

OP...... I don't know your riding experience, but (forgive me) suspect you maybe are not the most confident rider???? 

IF you are determined to keep this horse (after all, you bought her because you presumably liked SOMETHING about her??) - then my advice would be to get some professional help ASAP. Its nothing to be ashamed of, and frankly with a situation like this you'll be unlikely to succeed unless you get the moral support of an expert/professional.

My advice (what worked for me) was to get someone who was highly skilled at looking at horse/rider partnership and having an open enough mind to try the thing that worked, i.e. a mixture of disciplines, but she does use a lot of Michael Peace's approach plus Intelligent Horsemanship. So you could have a look at those websites as that might kick off some ideas for you.

You will need to get this horse working on the ground first and foremost, to be polite, considerate and moving its feet where YOU say, and THEN and then only, progress to ridden work. The horse will need to accept you as "herd leader" and the reason she won't hack solo is because she isn't confident in you as herd leader - not yet anyway. She's afraid to go on her own without other horses around, which is a very natural reaction with horses as prey animals. 

You need to get her confidence, and get started on the groundwork, but if you don't do groundwork right, i.e. firmly, politely and assertively, you'll only set in motion bad habits for later on. So important to get help NOW. 

Please be assured that what you're experiencing is nothing new with horses from trekking centres! Believe me, I've been there, dunnit with my traddie boy. But by golly we've got there, he'll hack solo perfectly happily now without a murmer, whereas when I had him and tried to get him out on his own first he was just like the mare you're describing!!!

So........ get your expert/pro, but choose carefully! And accept that yes you WILL succeed with this horse, because I believe you can and will do so. 

PS. You could also have a look at the Horse Agility website too; I went to a workshop Vanessa Bee did and some of the groundwork she was demonstrating with a really bolshy horse, was very valuable.

Good luck!


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## wakijaki (6 January 2014)

as an update to this post - I am right back at square one im afraid. I have spent the past 3 months with friends working on gorundwork with Lolli, have done join up with her and have acheived some great results whilst working with her in the small paddock we made.
However the last time I rode her out about a month ago - she jumped out in the middle of the road in front of an oncoming moped, napped and refused to move, bucked and kicked hell out of my friends horse. Refused to move again lots no matter what I did. Then bolted when she saw a tractor, bolted again when she saw a van x2. Spun and kicked hell out of my friends horse again. By this time I dismounted as my nerves where shot from being on her and almost coming off..then she spun and bolted again when a van came down the lane and ripped the leadrope from my hand. 
So that put me off riding her - we went back to groundwork in the paddock and leading her out. Took her out one day and she was fine, very nappy to start off with but after 10/15 minutes she was relaxed and walking lovely. Then my friend took her for a lead walk and she once again reverted back to spinning and bolting whenever she saw traffic she didnt like. Took her out again another day and she was fine. More groundwork and trust building in the paddock. I took her out last week for a walk with her field mate which is my friends daughters pony. She was up on her toes, trotting all the way. Did my best to relax her by getting her to stop and back up then rewarding her with grazing which is a little system we have worked out so that she is happy and keeps listening to commands and relaxes. Then we got to the road and she grazed on the verge while waiting for my friend to get her horse ready. We set off following the others as she now has to be at the back as everyone is scared of her bucking in their faces....next thing I know she started spinning and trotting around me, bucking and threatening to rear and tossing her head. It was all i could do to hold her - traffic was stopped everywhere as she was dragging me out into the road. At one point she almost had me on the floor. Eventually (after the scariest 5 minutes of my life) she settled down again and we carried on. Nothing had set her off, there were only cars around so noting scared her.
I just cant cope with her anymore - some days she is fine but other days at any minute she just explodes and im so scared that either myself or one of my friends or even a member of the public is going to get seriously hurt.
On top of that the farmer went in the field the other day and she went up to him and then spun and bucked right in his face and almost caught him. My friend has also said her daughter is now too scared to go in the field to see her pony because lolli has also done this to her as well.
I dont know what else to do anymore.
Im going to phone for more legal advise in the morning from the BHS and see what they suggest as my partner thinks I have ruined any chances of success in the small claims court by leaving it so long but I have explained that I needed to try and I also think I needed to give her more time to adjust to the move and to settle in. However - I am not willing to put myself in such danger any more for a horse that I cant do anything with  - let alone all the things I was promised by the seller I would be able to do. 
I will keep you updated as if the BHS say theres no point me going to court then I will just have to cut my losses finanically and see if anyone would be willing to take her on as a project or a companion - obvioulsy i would make them fully aware of all the issues.
So sorry its not a more positve update but I thought it might be useful for other people in a similar situation


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## Amymay (6 January 2014)

Sounds like a bullet job. What a shame, as you obviously can't sell her.


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## nervous nelly (6 January 2014)

first thing i thought when rrading your post is that animal needs to be shot before it does some real damage sorry op i also dont think there is any point in trying to get your money back.

i feel for you i really do but you need to put yours and other peoples saftey first if a dog was acting this upredictable and down right dangerous it would have been shot  weeks ago. 

have a hug


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## Kat (6 January 2014)

What do the people who helped you out before say? Are they still involved?  

What happens sometimes with problem ponies is that the owner gets good professional help and thinks that the pony is "fixed" they treat it as normal and then after a few weeks/months the pony reverts. With problem ponies especially strong willed types like haflingers you need to keep on top of them every day.  You will need to keep up regular sessions with your professional and learn how to remain in charge everytime you handle this pony. You may also need to make sure that others know how to deal with her or avoid them having to handle her.


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## Elsbells (6 January 2014)

I do feel for you. You've tried so hard and put in so much work, no one can say that you haven't done your best because you have.

I bought a nightmare after a long time from horses too. It's cost a lot, in my time,  in heartache and pain, but we made it. I look back and can't believe how far we have come. I'm so proud of her and that's considering that if someone had put a gun in my hand at the start I would of gladly shot her and I'm not joking!

I'm stubborn and she's beautiful and that's what saved us I think. Time, reading her, learning to trust and persistence did it and we've both learnt so much from each other in that time. You've either got to dig in your heels OP and keep banging 
away or throw in the towel now because its a long hard road you'll be embarking 
on, although the rewards are priceless.

As for returning her i really dont know how you would stand now?
Good luck OP 
in whatever you decide.


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## Goldenstar (6 January 2014)

Every day you keep a horse like this costs you money .
Cut your loses quickly.
Take a break put it behind you and be more careful next time .


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## abb123 (6 January 2014)

What a shame as it sounded like you were getting somewhere with her. 

Firstly you need to come up with a plan to make sure that everyone is safe until you decide what you are going to do with her. I would try and section her off in her own paddock so that other people can come and go safely without risk that they will get kicked.

Secondly I think you need to have a bit of a break. She'll be fine without being ridden/schooled for a bit. You need to be calm and clear headed when you try and tackle her problems not at breaking point. It will also give you a chance to think about whether you do want to continue to work out her issues or PTS. Either option is understandable in this situation and you shouldn't feel bad if you do decide to PTS. I wouldn't sell her on, even as a companion. She is dangerous and you are asking to be manipulated by an unscrupulous person that will pretend to want her as a companion and then sell on for profit and put someone else's life at risk..

If you do decide to continue working with her then I think you need to get a professional in rather than get friends to help. I'm sure plenty of people will be able to advise of someone suitable in your area. This professional should work on both you and the horse so that you acquire the skills necessary to cope with her behaviour.

Good luck. Horrible situation for you to be in.


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## YasandCrystal (6 January 2014)

OP so sorry for you - horrid situation. All I can say is please ensure you are wearing a hat and gloves when you handle your mare. I would also only ever handle her in a pressure headcollar or rope halter. I would get a natural horsemanship trainer out to make an assessment for you and help you decide your next step. Good luck.


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (6 January 2014)

havent read entire thread but do remember the original post-if she genuinely is ok as a trekking pony would the original trekking centre(or another) take her back for free rather than PTS? at least that way the pony leads a useful life?


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## Marydoll (6 January 2014)

Its probably been great at the follow along job, never on its own but bored out of its brain, but if its been good why were they getting rid of it ? Did you try the pony doing the job you wanted it to do,hack out on your own before you bought the pony ?
I do think the sold as seen might be a stumbling block for you but if youre a BHS gold member get advice now. Did you vet pony before buying, speak to the vet before you pay money out for checks ? Its very difficult to say what to do without seeing the pony.
If youre a novice you may not want to ride through the behaviour but if its not physical, and you wont know unless checked, that sounds like what it might need. Get yourself a good instructor or rider who is good with horses with problems to help you with the pony.My experience with halflingers is that they can be very stubborn, yes i know we shouldnt type a breed but its been my experience of them. bolshy, bargy and rude if they can get away with it. If you dont want to jump on, and you have the skills, lunge and long line pushing through the behaviour issues then get a sticky bum rider to ride it through, and hack out a good few times for you. A friend had one just as you describe dragged us off our feet when initially off loaded and would happily run over you to get to what she wanted and with some ground work and rider perseverance she turned into a nice pony ridden by complete novices.
Sorry if this isnt helpful as i didnt have time to read all posts, skimmed and seen youve had more issues, hope you get resolution soon whatever you decide


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## Pearlsasinger (6 January 2014)

After reading today's update , it sounds as if there is something seriously wrong with this horse. I have only known horses behave like yours through head pain. One was caused by food intolerance, one by back issues and another by a brain tumour. If not already done, I'd cut out all foods, including supplements/treats, except grass/hay and get a really good vet/chiro to check the back/neck/poll. If nothing is found then I would sadly pts. There are some things that just can't be fixed, sadly.


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## Adopter (6 January 2014)

Thank you for the update.  You have really tried with this pony, take BHS advice, and go from there.

Your options are limited as others have said, a pony who is likely to cause harm to people entering its field is a real worry, and not suitable as a companion pony.

If you pass her on you risk someone coming back at you claiming she is worse than you said,  one solution is pts and this would not be wrong given what has already happened.  The second option is to find a professional who can work with the pony and sort its problems out, probably an expensive option.

You have been put in a really difficult situation but remember owning a pony is ment to be fun and a pleasure, there are lots of lovely young native ponies in rehoming rescue centres who would be properly assessed and much easier to manage.


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## Holding (6 January 2014)

Has your vet confirmed that there is nothing physically wrong with her?


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## dogatemysalad (6 January 2014)

You've tried long and hard to make things work with this mare and I'm full of admiration for you. However, I think you should call it a day now. Making the decision to stop is the hard part but can be a relief.

I've never seen your mare but I'm wondering whether she would settle in a riding school. The reason is, that she may find the routine and predictability of RS life reassuring and similar in some respects to the trekking centre.
A good RS owner is experienced with an ability to read a horse, and the amount of work she gets, could be a saving grace for her. 
No disrespect to you, you've been marvellous, but an asbo horse sometimes just needs to find a home that she understands.


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## ester (6 January 2014)

I thought the reason she was sold was that she wasn't particularly great for use in the RS/trekking. (OP finding this out after purchase)


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (6 January 2014)

ester said:



			I thought the reason she was sold was that she wasn't particularly great for use in the RS/trekking. (OP finding this out after purchase)
		
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ah sorry, missed that 

in that case, sounds like PTS would be best.


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## dogatemysalad (6 January 2014)

ester said:



			I thought the reason she was sold was that she wasn't particularly great for use in the RS/trekking. (OP finding this out after purchase)
		
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What a shame. I'd forgotten that.


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## Billabongchick (6 January 2014)

If it were me I would have her PTS to be honest. If the horse is dangerous to the point that it is kicking out at head level at humans and they are scared to go in a field with it let alone trying to do anything more and you have given time and attention in trying to rectify the issues and got nowhere then in my mind PTS is best. There are plenty of decent horses out there desperate for a good home in this rubbish market and personally I don't see the point in persevering to the point of injury or worse with a horse that may well have a brain tumour. You could pursue with the vendor as I understand money is an issue but perhaps it is better to cut losses now rather than going through further stress/money for keep until you do or don't get somewhere with vendor. I would be wary of rehoming if the horse is dangerous; how many truly 'expert' homes are there out there really? I really feel for you; a very difficult decision and it sounds like you have really tried with her.


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## ester (6 January 2014)

wakijaki said:



			sorry im not good on forums for being able to quote and reply properly so will try to add what i can about questions asked / points raised.
She misbehaved at trekking center - bucked children off in the school and was described as grumpy - when i asked what this meant i was told she got fed up with children fussing around her all the time and would put her ears back and move away but never did anything like bite or kick.
She has had 4 homes in 4 years and i managed to get in touch with her owner before the trekking center and she told me she bought her from 2 novices that couldnt do anything with her at all. It took her a while to settle her in but she worked fine, loved hacking but would buck after half hour or more in the school so wasn't suitable for her children. She said before that she was used as a brood mare and before that she was broken to drive first and ride afterwards.
So honestly dont think she has ever really done that much work.
I did 2 years of diplomas in equine studies and work experinece at hunting, racing yards, studs and trekking centers ect when i was younger. I then had a long break due to children and work and last year started helping a friend out on her yard. 3 ponies - 1 i rode all the time hacking out and leading the others from and also a 17.2 tb x ID. I was hacking out and looking after all these on a day to day basis - alone for 8 months before they said they were selling them all to buy two new ones so i thought it was time to get my own.
		
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It was this post just so you can see what was said rather than taking it from me!


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## wakijaki (8 January 2014)

thanks to you all for your replies. As i have now left it 3 months since contacting the seller and giving her 14 day notice to collect the horse then I was worried that I would of ruined my chances of winning the case. However I contacted the bhs again and they said that would be fine - i can argue that I was waiting for the seller to do the right thing and also that with it being a horse and not 'goods' I can also argue that I thought maybe she needed more time to settle in.
As advised by the bhs i have given the seller a further 7 days notice to refund and collect before starting court proceedings. However - after seeking more advise and speaking to people who have done this Im really not sure its the way to go. The people that have won thier cases all have different stories - some have had the cost back as well as any incurred costs for keeping the horse and some have even still ended up with the horse as well as the money back because the seller wouldnt take the horse back - so they have then used the money to seek help with the horse or rehomed it as a companion. However there are others that won, the horse went back and then they never got their money back so they were left with no horse and no money.
It does seem to be a minefield out there either way. Also with it coming up to the 6 months then after that expires I would have to prove the horse is behaving in the manner I say she is - whereas If i had followed through with it 3 months ago it would of been up to the seller to prove what a brilliant horse she sold me. 
So at the moment I am still not sure what route to go down. I have been advised to get her assessed by an independent behavioural expert however I cant find one in wales so am wondering if a vet would be able to do this so will look into this.
At the moment with her living out she only needs basic daily checks and handling and everyone knows now if they go into the field to take a carrot stick with them to chase her away so as not to give her the chance to spin and buck.
Will keep you all updated as it helps to have someone outside to talk to and to get different views and opinions


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## MerrySherryRider (8 January 2014)

Good luck with finding a solution with the seller. There are behaviourists in Wales, you could try one of the Kelly Marks Intelligent Horsemeanship associates or perhaps someone on here can recommend a contact. A quick google showed  a lady called Jenni Nellist ( Don't know her though,) whose charges are very reasonable and does zone days where no travel costs are incurred.


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## wakijaki (8 January 2014)

brilliant thank you for that - have found her page and sent her an email! 


MerrySherryRider said:



			. A quick google showed  a lady called Jenni Nellist ( Don't know her though,) whose charges are very reasonable and does zone days where no travel costs are incurred.
		
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## onemoretime (8 January 2014)

Have a read of this.  You will see that "sold as seen" does not mean a lot. 

http://www.edmondsonhall.com/page/1r6ef/Home/partner.html


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## onemoretime (8 January 2014)

Pearlsasinger said:



			That sounds like your best course of action.  The horse should never have been sold to you.
Good luck, OP, let us know how you get on.
		
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  Agree with this.  There are too many unsuitable horses being sold by dealers who know full well that they are unsuitable.


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## Dry Rot (8 January 2014)

onemoretime said:



			Have a read of this.  You will see that "sold as seen" does not mean a lot. 

http://www.edmondsonhall.com/page/1r6ef/Home/partner.html

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That is a good article but should be read right through to the end, especially that bit about a receipt stating exactly what is expected of the horse and the purpose for which it is bought. Then, that should be signed and dated by both parties, each keeping a copy. 

I may be wrong, but if both parties sign a statement saying that a horse is "Sold as seen' that is exactly the condition on which the horse is sold!

For example, a horse owner dies and his executors (who know nothing about horses) sell it "out of the field as seen". Would it really be reasonable for a purchaser to assume it was an excellent riding horse totally free of vice or defect? I think that is assuming too much. But I could be wrong.

Always always always get it in writing, even between good friends.


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## wakijaki (11 January 2014)

Just to update any one following this threat to the latest developments....as advised by the BHS and various people I today phoned up the Citizens Advice Bureau and they advised me the same as the BHS and said they would pass my details on to Trading Standards.
I wasn't even expecting them to contact me but while I was at work tonight they rang and spoke to my other half and From what I can gather - the seller didn't register my horse to be worked in the trekking center at all. Seems as if each  horse gets inspected yearly and has to pass a vet inspection and if used for treks and lessons it has to be named and checked as fit and safe to do so...being that they will come into contact with members of the public, some of whom might of never been around a horse before.
So from what they told my other half - if they can use my help to prove the seller used my horse in the center they will prosecute her as its not the first time they have received complaints about her.
Im also concerned that for someone who regually buys and sells horses the passport she gave me with my horse hasnt been updated since 2009 and is in fact a gypsy cob socitey passport.....surely this is also a strike against her considering she had the horse for well over a year?
Can anyone enlighten me on this as I have to wait til monday til I can speak to the woman from the council myself


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## Buddy'sMum (11 January 2014)

I'm confused - in a previous post you said that your horse has had 4 owners in the last 4 years, according to her passport? But now you're saying her passport hasn't been updated since 2009? 

Yes, the seller should have updated the passport to include her details when she purchased the horse - passports are supposed to be updated within 30 days of purchase. Even though you're currently in dispute with the seller, you should still have updated the passport with your details, as you've had this horse since...July? So I think you're on thin ice there.

What exactly are you hoping to achieve here? You don't seem sure. Do you still want to return the horse, for a full refund? Or are you trying to close down the seller's trekking centre?


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## ester (11 January 2014)

well they gypsy cob society had their Passport issuing status removed some time ago, I think all updates were then to be done by the british lippazaner society, are you actually down as owner?

re. the licensing, inspection occurs once per year. Any horses acquired during the 12 months post inspection were certainly not inspected separately and afaik no notification had to be given to the council that new animals were in use until the next inspection. - I'm not sure they ever had to be passed as 'safe' just sound and a quick basic check of vital signs so I don't think that is of any use to you.


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## zigzag (11 January 2014)

wakijaki said:



			Just to update any one following this threat to the latest developments....as advised by the BHS and various people I today phoned up the Citizens Advice Bureau and they advised me the same as the BHS and said they would pass my details on to Trading Standards.
I wasn't even expecting them to contact me but while I was at work tonight they rang and spoke to my other half and From what I can gather - the seller didn't register my horse to be worked in the trekking center at all. Seems as if each  horse gets inspected yearly and has to pass a vet inspection and if used for treks and lessons it has to be named and checked as fit and safe to do so...being that they will come into contact with members of the public, some of whom might of never been around a horse before.
So from what they told my other half - if they can use my help to prove the seller used my horse in the center they will prosecute her as its not the first time they have received complaints about her.
Im also concerned that for someone who regually buys and sells horses the passport she gave me with my horse hasnt been updated since 2009 and is in fact a gypsy cob socitey passport.....surely this is also a strike against her considering she had the horse for well over a year?
Can anyone enlighten me on this as I have to wait til monday til I can speak to the woman from the council myself
		
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Depends if she had the horse before her yearly inspection. If a horse came into riding school AFTER the inspection it wouldn't be seen til the following year


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## wakijaki (11 January 2014)

Buddy'sMum said:



			I'm confused - in a previous post you said that your horse has had 4 owners in the last 4 years, according to her passport? But now you're saying her passport hasn't been updated since 2009? 

Yes the passport has details written in but owing to the fact that its a now no longer existing company - its plainly obvious that the seller hasnt bothered to send the passport off as required by law. As stated I havent updated the passport as havent owned a horse since the passport thing came about and I have been trying since the first week to get the seller to take the horse back - which she obviously wouldn't do without the passport if i had sent it off. Where as she has no excuse for not updating the passport with in the 14+ months she owned her


Im not trying to get her closed down but as she made it clear to me that the horse was used safely within the trekking center and for riding lessons I assumed that meant the horse had been properly checked and was fit and safe to be used which isnt the case. I want to return the horse and have my money back obviously - I was advised to ring trading standards - I can hardly help that they would like to act on the information I have given them because its also not the first time she has been reported to them. Whether thats on the ground of other issues with the center itself or with another Haflinger I know she sold that was also returned as being unrideable and dangerous Im not sure.
		
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## wakijaki (11 January 2014)

thanks for your reply ester
i can understand that but she owned the mare for 14 months and from what the trading standards people said the horse would have to be inspected before being used for general public which they had no record of the horse at all - not even that it was there but out of work which is also required.


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## Buddy'sMum (11 January 2014)

wakijaki said:



			Yes the passport has details written in but owing to the fact that its a now no longer existing company - its plainly obvious that the seller hasnt bothered to send the passport off as required by law. As stated I havent updated the passport as havent owned a horse since the passport thing came about and I have been trying since the first week to get the seller to take the horse back - which she obviously wouldn't do without the passport if i had sent it off. Where as she has no excuse for not updating the passport with in the 14+ months she owned her
		
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Regardless of the fact that you're in dispute with the person you bought her from, you should have had the passport updated - you have owned the horse for 6 months. So really, you and the previous 3/4 owners have all broken the law. 



wakijaki said:



			Im not trying to get her closed down but as she made it clear to me that the horse was used safely within the trekking center and for riding lessons I assumed that meant the horse had been properly checked and was fit and safe to be used which isnt the case.
		
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You assumed she'd been properly checked in what way? Annual inspections of riding schools/trekking centres check the wellbeing, general health and workload of the horses, not their behaviour when being handled or ridden.

This seems to me to be a classic case of a novice buying a totally unsuitable horse without a vetting and not seeking professional help to address behavioural problems before they get out of hand. I'm sorry you and your horse have had such a rough time.


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## MrsNorris (11 January 2014)

Buddy'sMum said:



			This seems to me to be a classic case of a novice buying a totally unsuitable horse without a vetting and not seeking professional help to address behavioural problems before they get out of hand. I'm sorry you and your horse have had such a rough time.
		
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This seems a little unfair, the OP was sold this pony by a professional and was assured that it was a safe novice horse, the only thing she has really done wrong was to be too trusting, we can all easily fall into that trap.
OP I hope you manage to get some redress over this, sounds like the seller has previous form, so I would persue your case on the grounds of the horse being misold by a dealer. 
If more people stand up to these dodgy dealers and dont just roll over and give in, we might have less of them trying it on.


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## Buddy'sMum (11 January 2014)

hollybear said:



			This seems a little unfair, the OP was sold this pony by a professional and was assured that it was a safe novice horse, the only thing she has really done wrong was to be too trusting, we can all easily fall into that trap.
		
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But the horse was fine when the OP tried her and the first few times she rode her at home. Didn't the person who owned the horse before the trekking centre say she was too quiet for her? So are we sure the trekking centre dealer is a 'dodgy dealer'? Yes, perhaps she shouldn't have sold an opinionated Haffy to a novice but I hardly think that's against the law. Chances are these behavioural problems could have been sorted quickly if the OP had sought professional help.


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## be positive (11 January 2014)

Buddy'sMum said:



			But the horse was fine when the OP tried her and the first few times she rode her at home. Didn't the person who owned the horse before the trekking centre say she was too quiet for her? So are we sure the trekking centre dealer is a 'dodgy dealer'? Yes, perhaps she shouldn't have sold an opinionated Haffy to a novice but I hardly think that's against the law. Chances are these behavioural problems could have been sorted quickly if the OP had sought professional help.
		
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My recollection was that the mare was not used regularly for trekking as she was difficult and bucked people off, this was underplayed but given at some point as part of the reason for selling, that she supposedly was suited to a novice rider to potter around on and would be happier in a private home. The OP later researched and found that she had been passed around as "difficult" ending up in the trekking yard as  being in professional hands was thought to be the answer.

She was good when tried but how was this set up, it can be easy enough to make the trial fit the horses preferences, to avoid any situations where she may have been more tricky, part of being a pro is that you should be able to set things up for the horse to succeed even if it is false.

The OP has made mistakes, the dealer has been unhelpful and probably untruthful, the mare is more than likely a difficult ride that has never been properly or consistently handled or ridden and unfortunately is on a downward spiral that it is unlikely to end well as this has been going on for years, not just since the OP purchased her.

I find it difficult to see a positive result, the mare requires some serious work by a pro but financially this is probably not viable, a month in rehab and schooling will cost more than she is worth and may still not be enough to get her back on track to be a useful animal suited to a novice, gifting her to someone prepared to do the work may be the best option for the horse but not the current owner who will lose the money invested, I have seen this scenario often enough to know for the owner it is most likely to end up proving expensive.


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## MrsNorris (11 January 2014)

Buddy'sMum said:



			But the horse was fine when the OP tried her and the first few times she rode her at home. Didn't the person who owned the horse before the trekking centre say she was too quiet for her? So are we sure the trekking centre dealer is a 'dodgy dealer'? Yes, perhaps she shouldn't have sold an opinionated Haffy to a novice but I hardly think that's against the law. Chances are these behavioural problems could have been sorted quickly if the OP had sought professional help.
		
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Surely though if a horse is sold as safe for a novice and then becomes badly behaved and dangerous when handled by one, it is not really a novice horse?

The OP made it quite clear to the dealer what she needed, and IMO, was sold a totally unsuitable horse, so I still think that the pony was mis-sold and as such, the OP has a right to return it as it is not as described.


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## mirage (11 January 2014)

It's not unusual for owners to never register themselves with the Passport issuer.When we bought knobberpony in 2011,I sent her passport off,only to get a phone call from the issuer to say that the 3 previous owners had never registered as such,and had just written their details in.I had to contact the last people who had registered her,who had done so in 1996,and ask them to confirm in writing that they had sold her.

Interestingly,they had sold her to a livery on their yard and knobberpony was so naughty that this person did not want her name associated with such a pony,therefore never registered her.The new owner couldn't even catch her and bring her in,the old owners had to do it.Neither of her next 2 homes bothered either,including the people we bought her from,who'd had her 3 years.


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## Spring Feather (11 January 2014)

hollybear said:



			This seems a little unfair, the OP was sold this pony by a professional and was assured that it was a safe novice horse, the only thing she has really done wrong was to be too trusting, we can all easily fall into that trap.
		
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Actually I agree with BuddysMum, this is a classic case of novice buying.  Yes the OP has been too trusting, that's obvious, but could have been eliminated had she an experienced horse person go with her to view the pony beforehand.  It's not a trap "we can all easily fall into"; experienced buyers don't generally fall into these traps.  So the moral of the story is, if you are not an experienced buyer, find someone to take with you who is.


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## wakijaki (12 January 2014)

Buddy'sMum said:



			But the horse was fine when the OP tried her and the first few times she rode her at home. Didn't the person who owned the horse before the trekking centre say she was too quiet for her? So are we sure the trekking centre dealer is a 'dodgy dealer'? Yes, perhaps she shouldn't have sold an opinionated Haffy to a novice but I hardly think that's against the law. Chances are these behavioural problems could have been sorted quickly if the OP had sought professional help.
		
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When i tried the mare they tacked her up for me. They also had to hold her as she wouldnt stand to be mounted but they said this was down to her being excited to be back in work....yes I know...warning bells should of sounded but hindsight is a beautiful thing and I was excited myself as its not everyday you go to view a horse so I assumed she was picking up on my excitement.
Yes I rode her 2x when I got her- both on very short hacks....probably 20 minutes and she was ok, bit hesitant and needed pushing along but otherwise ok.
Im not saying the seller is a 'dodgy dealer' ...what I am saying is she knew the horse was difficult, she knew I wanted a novice horse as the idea was my friend could ride her and we could safely pop the kids on her as well which i was told she would be perfect for.
What i am saying is this woman had the horse for 14 months and couldnt do much with her herself - even though she is a 'professional' who takes in horses for breaking and schooling - Who also sold another haflinger not long before mine to a similar sort of home - mother wanted a quiet horse in which she would be able to lead her daughters pony from - again assured the horse would be perfect when in fact it ended up being returned for all the same reasons as my mare.....what i am saying is even say the mare was 100% perfect there - surely any conscientious seller who cares about either the horses, her customers or even her reputation would of at least come to see the horse and how it was behaving instead of telling me the mare was just having fun with me?


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## wakijaki (12 January 2014)

be positive said:



			My recollection was that the mare was not used regularly for trekking as she was difficult and bucked people off, this was underplayed but given at some point as part of the reason for selling, that she supposedly was suited to a novice rider to potter around on and would be happier in a private home. The OP later researched and found that she had been passed around as "difficult" ending up in the trekking yard as  being in professional hands was thought to be the answer.

She was good when tried but how was this set up, it can be easy enough to make the trial fit the horses preferences, to avoid any situations where she may have been more tricky, part of being a pro is that you should be able to set things up for the horse to succeed even if it is false.

.
		
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Yes - excatly this and while I freely admit I made mistakes with the purchase I would also like to say that buying from someone who runs a business and indeed a 'family friendly' trekking yard - I was a lot more trusting than I would of been buying from a private seller. To buy this 100% quiet and easy mare and then have so many issues and to also find out once I started digging that she has a long history of this was not what I expected. 
Also the trial was I arrived, they already had her in the stable, they tacked her up, helped me mount and we went on a trek following the seller on her horse, we came back for a 5 minute walk along a busy road as my main concern had been that she be safe to hack.


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## wakijaki (12 January 2014)

Spring Feather said:



			Actually I agree with BuddysMum, this is a classic case of novice buying.  Yes the OP has been too trusting, that's obvious, but could have been eliminated had she an experienced horse person go with her to view the pony beforehand.  It's not a trap "we can all easily fall into"; experienced buyers don't generally fall into these traps.  So the moral of the story is, if you are not an experienced buyer, find someone to take with you who is.
		
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As the pony was mostlywell behaved on the day of viewing I fail to see how taking someone else with me would of made any difference to the general outcome? Yes looking back the fact that they tacked her up and someone had to hold her for me to mount might have set off warning bells but these issues where fixed with me learning a different way around it...ie I sorted these issues out myself by learning natural horsemanship techniques and doing ground work. The things that I cant deal with is her spinning whenever the mood takes her and giving double barrels, the biting, kicking, napping, bucking and bolting...non of which she did on the day anyway but some of which i later learned she was known to do while there - again - not that they would of told me...
Also - experienced buyers only get experienced at buying by buying....we all start somewhere and this was my first time....which is why I went to what I thought was a reputable seller rather than joe blogs round the corner


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## wakijaki (12 January 2014)

Also I should add that I didnt have the option of taking anyone with me as I didnt have a large circle of horse friends as I was only just coming back into horses after a 14 year break and those I did have were too busy with work and their own things to help. Its  only through people close by seeing me struggle so much that my horsey circle has expanded so that I now would have that option and have several friends to chose from if/when I ever look to buy another horse


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## Elsbells (12 January 2014)

I don't think the OP needs to be told where's she's gone wrong in purchasing the wrong horse, I should imagine that she feels bad enough already. 

But for the grace of God, there go I.


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## Goldenstar (12 January 2014)

Spicesnsnow said:



			I don't think the OP needs to be told where's she's gone wrong in purchasing the wrong horse, I should imagine that she feels bad enough already. 

But for the grace of God, there go I.
		
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Given that she thinks taking someone who knew what they was doing would have no difference I agree there's no point in point out the numerous alarm bells that ought to have put her off this poor poor horse.


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## ester (12 January 2014)

The thing is even if you don't have a plethora of experienced equestrian friends to guide you many would pay for somebody's time to assist - current instructor etc. Who would likely advise against the purchase of a horse without seeing it caught, groomed, tacked up, ridden in school and out and may have been more likely to pick up on subtle signs that all was not well. In addition to the fact that very few people would recommend a haffy as a suitable novice mount. They do not have a reputation for being uncomplicated.


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## WelshD (12 January 2014)

OP of possible i would stick with the 7 day notice that you have given

There are several months of dilly dallying and at least one 14 day empty threat behind you and its not surprising that the old owner is ignoring things if they know you wont go through with it! 

In the nicest possible way it sounds like you want fate to decide for you rather than have a definite path but you need to focus now on what your aim is otherwise sooner or later you will pass the point where it becomes possible or credible for you to return the horse and you will be stuck with it


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## Flicker51 (12 January 2014)

Apologies if it has already been said - I have not read all the posts but if I were you I would scrape the pennies together and return her and then look to recoup the costs of the transport through the small claims court once you are reimbursed the sale money.


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## Flicker51 (12 January 2014)

oops just seen the date of first post - maybe not !!


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## deicinmerlyn (12 January 2014)

A horse that 'bucks in the school because it's bored' is not a Novice horse and that would have set alarm bells ringing for me. It sounds as if there are pain related problems as well as temperament problems and the riding school wanted rid without being completely honest and not actually caring where the pony ended up anyway.
I hope you get it sorted out OP but can't help feeling sorry for the pony.


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## Tally-lah (22 February 2015)

Hi OP, I wondered how you resolved this situation in the end? 

I hope you were able to work it out for the good of yourself and the horse.


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## Pigeon (22 February 2015)

Maybe she was never broken in properly. She doesn't exactly sound happy, but it could just be confusion. I assume you've had a vet see her? I would literally re-break from scratch, and not move on until she understands each concept. (especially the basics like woah/go/steer)

ETA old post. What happened in the end?


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## Treacle24 (22 February 2015)

wakijaki said:



			I bought a haflinger mare 6 weeks ago from a trekking center.  She was described as quiet to ride and 100% in all ways.  I went to view and ride her and she was fine although they tacked her up for me and we hacked out and she followed behind almost the whole time.  The seller assured me she would be a great first pony as I explained I was coming back after a long break and wanted something quiet and safe to have fun hacks and beach rides with. 
She has been difficult to handle from day one.  Bolshy bargey throwing her weight around.  Naps very badly and I'm unable to ride her alone as she won't go and then tries spinning backing up and bolting for the gate home.  She has also bucked with me in the field and also on the road and also while I have been leading her.  I tried lunging her once and she kept charging for me and spinning and bucking inwards at me. 
The seller did say she would buck in the school as she was easily bored. 
Have been in touch with the seller several times over the 6 weeks saying I wasn't happy and she was being a nightmare and dangerous to handle. She offered to have her back for two weeks training free of charge if I took her there... An 80 mile round trip... but has refused to accept there are these problems or to take her back for a refund. 
It's got to the point now where I'm scared of getting hurt around her and am a bag of nerves getting on her even in company.  She happily hacks in company as long as she is behind. 
Should day I have had her checked all over... Back tack feet teeth and all are fine.  Back lady said she had very bad behaviour issues and wanted to fight first.  She has been difficult for everyone to handle not just me. Every day everything is just a big fight with her.  I have tried being soft and gentle and have tried being firm and strict... Either way she reacts the same. 
Where do I stand about getting her sent back legally?  Receipt says sold as seen but I have copies of the adverts where she claims she is quiet and 100%... She is anything but. 
Thanks
		
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This sounds pretty similar to what happened to me.  I was sold a mare for hacking and schooling as being a beginners poney and a saint.  The first day I got her home she was ok, pretty chilled out actually.  From day 2 onwards she was a nightmare, agressive, bargy, nappy.  I would be covered in bruises just from brushing her as she would barge me up against the wall.  One day I rode her out and just decided it was make or break time for me, if I couldn't ride her I was not putting myself through it again.   I got her out of the stables with lots of reversing but we made it and did a 20 minute hack.  Breakthrough!!!!  

Anyway, long story short I still have her.  We have got through so much together and she is only occassionally nappy now.  But she has calmed so much that my kids can brush her and get her in from the field.  But it took months!!!!!!  I have had some of the best times with her and the best rides!

Unfortunatley moving and having to rehome her.  gutted as so worried for her as know someone will have to be really patient with her.  difference being I am being very honest about her temperment!


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## wakijaki (23 February 2015)

Hi all
OP here with an update as i didnt realise anyone was still following this thread and had forgotten about it.
So - the seller never responded to me. I had gotten advice from BHS legal helpline and was about to start pushing the case through the courts - which would of also have been helped by local trading standards as they were going to investigate the trekking center because the horse was never registered to be used for the public there, plus there were other things they were interested in.
I have to say by now I was a nervous wreck and although i was still making sure Lolli was ok - as in she had food and water - I just couldnt stand to be anywhere near her at all.

I was keeping her on my friends farm and she had been helping me with natural horsemanship methods to try to get through to lolli...but with mixed results.  To my utter amazement - my friend offered to buy her off me for what i had paid.
Obviously - this wasnt what i wanted  - i wanted the seller to take her back as she should of done - but it did mean that I wouldnt have the stress and expense and more wasted time of having to go to court and see what happened there. I also knew that it was what was best for the horse as there was no other way i would of gotten her such a good home and also she didnt have to put up with the stress of having to move again.

So after many talks with my friend and making totally sure she knew what she was buying I agreed to sell her.
I still think now I should of gone through with the court thing or just given up and sent her to market because I feel bad for my friend.
She has literally restarted her from scratch naturally. Taken the shoes off, taken the bit away and spent so many many hours, days, weeks months, well its been just over a year now and she is still the same.
Admittedly - shes now calmer in the field and less pushy. And my friend has had some great groundwork results with her - but she is still very unpredictable and she is still bolshy. My friend wont admit defeat though - she wants to prove to everyone that she can turn her around by using natural horsemanship methods and being all metal free. But most of the time - Lolli is just lazing around in the field getting fat and not really doing a lot.
My friend has now bought another horse - a totally untouched 5 year old to start for herself.

I wish she would just admit defeat with lolli as i hate to see her going through the same things i went through and to have put all the time and effort in that she has done and with such minimal results is just heartbreaking.

I never went through with helping trading standards against the trekking center - i felt i would of been doing it for the wrong reasons and I just wanted to put an end to what was a horrendous and terrifying experience. I never heard anything back from the seller. All I can do i advise people to avoid her if they ask where to buy a horse from. She has carried on as normal, buying and selling horses, taking horses in for breaking and retraining and running the trekking yard.

As for me - I took a step back from horses for a couple of months as I just couldnt stand the huge sense of failure and even to today my confidence is still knocked.
However I found a lovely little gelding for loan - have had him almost a year now - and am probably going to buy him as he is just perfect for me except for the odd excited tanking off! I can go up and catch, tack him up and trundle off out for a hack on our own without a worry and its bliss! 
Lessons were learnt at great cost and I still think I made another huge mistake agreeing to my friend having Lolli from me but maybe eventually she will get through to her.
I thank you for all your replies, advise and interest


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## Slightlyconfused (23 February 2015)

At least she is in a safe place with your Friend.
Did she ever get a full vet work up.


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## Nightmare before Christmas (23 February 2015)

I can see both sides of this, as someone who sells horses and also reschools. 

Firstly what did the advert state? Did it say the pony has been used for trekking and is a novice ride doing so? Etc if so they havnt lied you said the pony was fine out behind out and about. Or did they say novice ride in the school and alone etc in which case they may have told porkies. 

Sold as seen to me means just that. You saw the pony and you chose to buy it based on what you have seen. As far as I am aware it's quite hard to send on back with this on the recipet. 

I see this a lot with people as I get many contact me a day asking for help. It can go two ways. Someone can fix the pony for you but depending on your ability sometimes they can go home, behave a couple weeks then revert back as they know they can or they stay behaved and the owner loves them. 

Are you on a livery yard or on your own?


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## Nightmare before Christmas (23 February 2015)

Just seen its sorted!!


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## Dry Rot (23 February 2015)

This is an interesting thread from which many of us have learnt things!

My one worry is that I am not so sure "sold as seen" can be used as a get out clause, at least by a professional seller. There is such a thing as misrepresentation and can mental health problems in a horse really "be seen"? Are they necessarily going to be seen from a brief trial and an external examination, even by a vet?

Quote.
_
Misrepresentation
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
This article is about a legal term. For the sociological one, see Misrepresentation (sociology).
Misrepresentation is a concept in the contract law of England and some other Commonwealth countries, referring to a false statement of fact made by one party to another party, which has the effect of inducing that party into the contract. For example, under certain circumstances, false statements or promises made by a seller of goods regarding the quality or nature of the product that the seller has may constitute misrepresentation. A finding of misrepresentation allows for a remedy of rescission and sometimes damages depending on the type of misrepresentation.[citation needed]

According to the judgment in the English case Gordon v Selico (1986) 18 HLR 219 it is possible to make a misrepresentation either by words or by conduct, although not everything said or done is capable of constituting a misrepresentation. Generally, statements of opinion or intention are not statements of fact in the context of misrepresentation.[1] If one party claims specialist knowledge on the topic discussed, then it is more likely for the courts to hold a statement of opinion by that party as a statement of fact.[2]_

The courts are not very sympathetic when sellers impose a get out clause clearly intended to protect themselves.


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## Marion (23 February 2015)

I bought my horse from a local dealer who promised if my horse wasn't as sold, quiet and suitable for all the family, she would stand by it. When the horse turned out to be bolshy, impossible to tie up, had no brakes etc we asked her to take him back. Thats when things got nasty. Long story short, I've had him 17 years and hes my best friend. Hes still on occasion bolshy etc but I bought a control halter and learnt as much as I could about natural horsemanship,  little by little we got there. Hope you find a solution.


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## Tally-lah (23 February 2015)

Thank you for the update. I am pleased you got a result of sorts. Your friend knew exactly what she was buying and looking at it from an outsiders perspective I think you both (you and Lolli) got the best possible outcome.


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## Rhodders (23 February 2015)

I have a haffy, if you allow them an inch they will take a mile and very very quickly spiral out of control and turn into bolshy, monsters! Groundwork, groundwork and more groundwork, don't let them into your space no matter how innocuous it may seem, the odd nuzzle becomes a head butt next time.  Don't let them stop for a poo, stop for a look at the view, they are taking control, you have to be in control at all times. .  She'll teach you to be very forward thinking, get professional help if you can't face it alone, I think she's adapting to a new life and she needs very clear instructions on what is expected of her.


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## Rhodders (23 February 2015)

Just seen this is an ancient thread


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## wakijaki (24 May 2020)

Just come across this old thread of mine and wanted to update anyone that commented. 
My friend bought the mare of me in the end as she said she felt sorry for her to be passed about again or go back to the trekking center. She tried to completly restart her using natural horsemanship. Varying degrees of success. She did manage to sort out some issues but even she had to admit defeat in the end that she would ever be a rideable horse. She still has the mare, lucky girl she's got a home for life where she will never be ridden although she has recently started doing some work with her to break her to driving which seems to be more acceptable to the mare than being ridden. Thanks everyone for your past advice


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## Pearlsasinger (24 May 2020)

Thanks for the update.  Did anyone ever x-ray the mare's back?


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## wakijaki (24 May 2020)

Hi no xray although I did have someone check her back to start with. She's happy in the field, she's just very stubborn and knows she can get away with it I think. Living her best life being a pet


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## Pearlsasinger (24 May 2020)

wakijaki said:



			Hi no xray although I did have someone check her back to start with. She's happy in the field, she's just very stubborn and knows she can get away with it I think. Living her best life being a pet
		
Click to expand...


Unfortunately even vets don't have x-ray eyes.  Can I ask if you bought her in Yorkshire?  If so, I think I might have viewed the horse when she was for sale.


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