# Worried about something quite outside my control



## Clodagh (18 October 2019)

A friend has taken on a Bulgarian rescue dog, an Anatolian shepherd I think? It's enormous! It's an ex street dog. I haven't met it in the flesh but apparently it has adapted well, gets on with their dogs and is friendly to everyone outside the house.
They have had him about 10 days and the neighbours came round to meet him, as they let the dogs out when friend is at work. They were all sitting down having coffee when one of the other dogs barked at someone going past the house, and the rescue leaped up and attacked the neighbour, who is an elderly man. They managed to pull him off before any damage was done but it was very frightening.
Bizarrely they are going to try again this weekend, and if the meet and greet goes OK the neighbour will be going round there on his own from next week to let them out. I am so worried this dog will attack him, and do serious damage. I have expressed my fears, but it was just 'Don't worry, we are going to see how he gets on meeting him with us again first'.
I don't think I would ever trust this dog with visitors.
There is nothing I can do or say, soam just worrying myself sick about it. I am hoping the neighbour will say he won't do it as apparently he is badly shaken by what happened. 
They have a kennel and run in the garden, why can't the new dog go out there and the neighbour just do their previous 3?
Pointless thread!


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## skinnydipper (18 October 2019)

I would be worried too, Clodagh.

The Anatolian Shepherd is a livestock guardian.  He will think he is doing his job -  protecting his new family and property.  It is what they are bred for, they are left out with the flock and work independently.


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## fiwen30 (18 October 2019)

Iâ€™d be worried too. I certainly wouldnâ€™t be setting the same scenario up again to â€˜see what happens this timeâ€™ - youâ€™ve already seen what happens!

Unless theyâ€™re going in with a different plan of action, ie. under the supervision of a trainer, the dog appropriately muzzle-trained etc., then theyâ€™re just setting the dog up to fail. Doing the same thing over again and expecting different results is the definition of madness for a reason.


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## ester (18 October 2019)

The neighbour is bonkers!


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## skinnydipper (18 October 2019)

Keeping the neighbour safe must be the priority.  The kennel and run sounds ideal - if it is securely fenced and can cope with a large dog.

I have posted before about an Anatolian Shepherd living round the corner from me.  He broke through the fence surrounding the garden and bit a passerby


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## twiggy2 (18 October 2019)

Well some people are just barmy, nothing you can do tthough. The potential for significant damage is great though with a dog of that size and power. Poor dog, they ar not household pets at all.
I have only worked with one Anatolian Shepherd and he arrived at dog training on a busy night, he was an entire three year old rescue from abroad, the new owner had a wildfowl rescue and wanted a free roaming dog to guard the place against foxes, he was an absolute delight, the only thing he did wrong was pee on his owner, she was sat in a chair and he was tall enough that when he cooked his leg the pee actually landed in her lap.


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## planete (18 October 2019)

The only hopeful points in this are a) no damage was done (good bite inhibition?/ rush to a door/window in guarding mode mistaken for attack of person close by?) and b) humans were faster than an attacking dog and managed to prevent a bite? From my experience this is nearly impossible if the dog means business.

The fact remains this is a large guarding breed who is as yet an unknown quantity and nobody should be trying to walk into his home without the owners being present to keep him under close control, even if he had a totally unblemished record of friendliness.  These people are totally irresponsible.


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## deb_l222 (18 October 2019)

ester said:



			The neighbour is bonkers!
		
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Hmmmm yes, I was going to say, more fool the neighbour!! 

I have a friend, who does dog rescue, who I sometimes despair with.  We have to agree to disagree a lot of the time, or we would fall out.  For some reason she will always give a dog yet another chance, even if she's been badly bitten.  She's not irresponsible enough to re-home the dogs but does keep them herself.

For me, if a dog has attacked someone, totally unprovoked, then they're not to be trusted.  You could argue the dog was provoked by the person going past the house but the dog chose to attack the human IN the house.  That really isn't good.  There's worse fates than being put to sleep and it wouldn't be getting another chance with me and I've had my fair share of aggressive dogs over the years.............who haven't needed to be PTS for that reason, I hasten to add.

One of the reasons I stepped sideways from rescue is because of the number of dogs my rescue in particular were keeping in kennels due to aggression issues.  Yes, it's responsible NOT to re-home them but to decide to keep a 3 year old aggressive dog in kennels for the rest of its life (albeit well looked after) just doesn't sit right with me.  Again, there's far worse fates than being put to sleep.

Gosh, I've managed to have a long old rant here


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## Amymay (18 October 2019)

Would it be a step to far to pop around to the neighbour and ask him to reconsider?  He could be badly bitten at best, killed at worst.....


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## CorvusCorax (18 October 2019)

Dogs dont understand the concept of being given the benefit of the doubt. I've never seen it happen yet. They just do what worked for them the first time.

If the dog, which is genetically predisposed to guard a boundary from strangers, does so, and the threat retreats, the behaviour is reinforced. To repeat it is lunacy.

Is it supreme human arrogance to expect to override learned experience and genetics **in ten days** and confirms my belief that your average pet owner has no business keeping dogs like these in their domestic properties.

It's like capturing a wild horse and expecting to turn it into a pampered show pony living in 24/7.

PS a friend kept Anatolians on their farm in the wilds of Canada. They were never, ever inside. They didn't even enjoy being in the barn.


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## Clodagh (18 October 2019)

skinnydipper said:



			I would be worried too, Clodagh.

The Anatolian Shepherd is a livestock guardian.  He will think he is doing his job -  protecting his new family and property.  It is what they are bred for, they are left out with the flock and work independently.
		
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They did say that the dog was only doing what he thought was right.


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## Clodagh (18 October 2019)

planete said:



			The only hopeful points in this are a) no damage was done (good bite inhibition?/ rush to a door/window in guarding mode mistaken for attack of person close by?) and b) humans were faster than an attacking dog and managed to prevent a bite? From my experience this is nearly impossible if the dog means business.

The fact remains this is a large guarding breed who is as yet an unknown quantity and nobody should be trying to walk into his home without the owners being present to keep him under close control, even if he had a totally unblemished record of friendliness.  These people are totally irresponsible.
		
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I gather that he was being held loosely by his collar, so pulled away from that but then fell over the coffee table on his way through. I don't know any more detail.


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## Clodagh (18 October 2019)

deb_l222 said:



			Hmmmm yes, I was going to say, more fool the neighbour!!

I have a friend, who does dog rescue, who I sometimes despair with.  We have to agree to disagree a lot of the time, or we would fall out.  For some reason she will always give a dog yet another chance, even if she's been badly bitten.  She's not irresponsible enough to re-home the dogs but does keep them herself.

For me, if a dog has attacked someone, totally unprovoked, then they're not to be trusted.  You could argue the dog was provoked by the person going past the house but the dog chose to attack the human IN the house.  That really isn't good.  There's worse fates than being put to sleep and it wouldn't be getting another chance with me and I've had my fair share of aggressive dogs over the years.............who haven't needed to be PTS for that reason, I hasten to add.

One of the reasons I stepped sideways from rescue is because of the number of dogs my rescue in particular were keeping in kennels due to aggression issues.  Yes, it's responsible NOT to re-home them but to decide to keep a 3 year old aggressive dog in kennels for the rest of its life (albeit well looked after) just doesn't sit right with me.  Again, there's far worse fates than being put to sleep.

Gosh, I've managed to have a long old rant here 

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I totally agree with you. Apparently if they decide not to keep him he has to go back to Bulgaria? So he can be readopted I suppose. If he were mineI'd have him PTS here and just say he got run over.


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## Clodagh (18 October 2019)

amymay said:



			Would it be a step to far to pop around to the neighbour and ask him to reconsider?  He could be badly bitten at best, killed at worst.....
		
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I really can't. Friend rang him again last night to see how he was and apparantly he is still distressed, he loves all dogs and only doesn't have one now as he feels he is too old for the commitment, it must feel quite personal, particulary if (like me) you have no experience of a feral guarding breed.
Hopefully he will say he just can't. Or his wife will.


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## Clodagh (18 October 2019)

CorvusCorax said:



			Dogs dont understand the concept of being given the benefit of the doubt. I've never seen it happen yet. They just do what worked for them the first time.

If the dog, which is genetically predisposed to guard a boundary from strangers, does so, and the threat retreats, the behaviour is reinforced. To repeat it is lunacy.

Is it supreme human arrogance to expect to override learned experience and genetics **in ten days** and confirms my belief that your average pet owner has no business keeping dogs like these in their domestic properties.

It's like capturing a wild horse and expecting to turn it into a pampered show pony living in 24/7.

PS a friend kept Anatolians on their farm in the wilds of Canada. They were never, ever inside. They didn't even enjoy being in the barn.
		
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Apparently he has never been in a house and will only settle down pressed against the back door. :-( . He can't be happy.


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## CorvusCorax (18 October 2019)

Oh, don't tell me any more. I may bust a blood vessel.

I expect they think they can 'love' him happy with this completely stressful and alien new lifestyle. And what the hell did the rescue think they were playing at. Aaarrrghhhhhhhhh.


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## skinnydipper (18 October 2019)

Clodagh said:



			Apparently he has never been in a house and will only settle down pressed against the back door. :-( . He can't be happy.
		
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Oh dear.  I was suggesting the kennel and run for when the family were absent - to keep the neighbour safe.  Poor dog, I think too much is being asked of him.


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## Clodagh (18 October 2019)

CorvusCorax said:



			Oh, don't tell me any more. I may bust a blood vessel.

I expect they think they can 'love' him happy with this completely stressful and alien new lifestyle. And what the hell did the rescue think they were playing at. Aaarrrghhhhhhhhh.
		
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## Leo Walker (18 October 2019)

This just isnt a pet dog. It sounds utterly miserable. And if they keep it they are being very selfish. I too would be having the dog quietly PTS and saying there had been some sort of accident.


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## gunnergundog (18 October 2019)

Clodagh said:



			Apparently if they decide not to keep him he has to go back to Bulgaria? So he can be readopted I suppose. If he were mineI'd have him PTS here and just say he got run over.
		
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PTS = number one choice; send back to Bulgaria = number two.
Crazy, crazy world.


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## CorvusCorax (18 October 2019)

Sorry, this isn't good for my blood pressure, but wedging himself against the back door isn't 'settling', it's placing himself as close to escape as he can get, its giving up/defeat, because he has nothing else to do and nowhere else to go.


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## splashgirl45 (18 October 2019)

yet another foreign dog that should never have been bought over here to go in a pet home.   we have quite a few foreign rescues round here and none of them have settled enough to even walk nicely on a lead and quite a few of them are aggressive as well....its about time something was done so that these dogs are PTS humanely in their own country and not shipped all over the place so do gooders think they are such animal lovers and want a pat on the back,  and dont get me started on the blind old dogs or the poor dogs who have no movement in their back legs and are reliant on a trolley that also get shoved over here ......it makes me so cross!!!!!!


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## MiJodsR2BlinkinTite (18 October 2019)

I took on an Anatolian Shepherd dog from a friend who was emigrating to a hot country and so couldn't take her; this dog had been bred over here but had somehow ended up in a rescue, and then this friend had taken her on.

She was a lovely girl, a real sweetie, and didn't ever have any vice in her. But if she felt anyone was a threat, she'd then immediately go into "protective" mode; she never bit anyone, she never had to, these are huge great dogs and when they adopt that certain "protective pose" most people who tend to stay away.

Dogs like this are herd dogs, they apparently originate from the Anatolian mountains in Turkey, and have historically been used for keeping the wolves away from the sheep flocks on the mountains. So are well used to holding their own against formidable odds! Not exactly your sweet little domesticated pooch therefore! They need a LOT of exercise, and thrive best in a working atmosphere where they're not only kept busy physically but also their minds are kept alert.

The problem with any dog like this is exactly what has been described here: someone who's totally fluffy-round-the-edges has somehow got hold of a dog like this, and have no idea what they've got or what to do with it!! 

For me, if a dog - any dog - had attacked a person like that, then sorry but it would be on its way to the vets with a one-way ticket. Not the dog's fault, I know, but that could sooohh easily have ended up with a much worse result. Or a child next time; or a pregnant woman..........

The neighbour needs his head examining frankly. Talk about crass stupidity. Classic case of "if you keep doing the same thing you'll get the same result you've had before". What on earth do the owners and this guy think will happen next time round?? And what will it take for them to see sense? Words fail me they really do!

One has to feel sorry for the dog in this situation, it is merely doing what comes naturally, the poor thing is obviously confused and unsettled, coupled with the fact it just doesn't know what it should be doing or who its Pack Leader is, and the Pack Leader isn't giving it the firm lead it needs in any case. IMO the ONLY way the situation could be redeemed would be for someone to take it on who has experience of this type of dog, and who has some work for it to do to stimulate it, and has plenty of time and energy - and space - for it to have enough mental and physical stimulation.

This is an accident waiting to happen I'm afraid. Frightening. WHY oh why are people soooh stupid.


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## ester (18 October 2019)

I suspect the neighbour probably quite enjoys letting the dogs out if he doesn't have one of his own but likes them and is potentially a bit gutted if he has to say he can't do it anymore.

It's all very well saying the dog only did what it thought was right but that doesn't exactly resolve the situation either.


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## Clodagh (18 October 2019)

ester said:



			I suspect the neighbour probably quite enjoys letting the dogs out if he doesn't have one of his own but likes them and is potentially a bit gutted if he has to say he can't do it anymore.

It's all very well saying the dog only did what it thought was right but that doesn't exactly resolve the situation either.
		
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This, absolutely. It is a very sad situation. Apparently there is also family coming to stay tomorrow for the weekend, so the dog is getting everything to deal with..
The 'rescuers' have a lab that they accept carries things, and a setter, that they accept hunts and points, why not accept that a guarding breed is going to do just that?


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## skinnydipper (18 October 2019)

Clodagh said:



			This, absolutely. It is a very sad situation. Apparently there is also family coming to stay tomorrow for the weekend, so the dog is getting everything to deal with..
The 'rescuers' have a lab that they accept carries things, and a setter, that they accept hunts and points, why not accept that a guarding breed is going to do just that?
		
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It sounds like a recipe for disaster.  I hope the dog will be in the kennel and run for the time the visitors are staying at least. The dog is struggling to cope with the situation as it is without added stress.  I would suggest they contact the rescue and explain what has happened with the neighbour and see what advice they can give.  It sounds like it was redirected aggression when the other dog reacted to the noise outside.

ETA.  I don't hold out much hope that the rescue will be of any help.  They have been totally unfair to both the dog and the new owner so far.


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## Clodagh (18 October 2019)

skinnydipper said:



			It sounds like a recipe for disaster.  I hope the dog will be in the kennel and run for the time the visitors are staying at least. The dog is struggling to cope with the situation as it is without added stress.  I would suggest they contact the rescue and explain what has happened with the neighbour and see what advice they can give.  It sounds like it was redirected aggression.

ETA.  I don't hold out much hope that the rescue will be of any help.  They have been totally unfair to both the dog and the new owner so far.
		
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I suspect the rescue has got a big fat donation and no longer give a shit.


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## Equi (18 October 2019)

I really hope the gentleman does not do it, and your friend is not pressuring him into it (even if they don't mean to, but perhaps he doesn't like to let people down)

Working dogs don't make easy pets. If he can't have his own little old fluff of a dog what chance does he have against a huge great protective dog that has already made it clear he will attack him? 

This is one post i really hope i don't re-read in a paper.


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## Equi (18 October 2019)

Clodagh said:



			Apparently he has never been in a house and will only settle down pressed against the back door. :-( . He can't be happy.
		
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somewhat a different topic but this really annoys me. Not all dogs are house dogs, not all dogs WANT to be house dogs...but so many rescues and people just can't fathom that. I had a setter/retriever mix bitch many years ago i got out of the paper who point blank REFUSED to ever come into the house. If she ever did end up in (like dragged by the collar because there was stuff happening in the yard or sheds and she couldn't be trusted not to go wandering) she would pace, whine, pant and literally knock you over until that door was opened again. Snow could be on the floor, her life long buddy could be inside on the rug in front of the fire and the door could be wide open but that dog would NOT come inside. Outside the door she was a wonderful dog and adored by everyone but in the house she was a total headcase.


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## Mrs. Jingle (18 October 2019)

I am also rather concerned that the 'elderly' neighbour who is apparently a dog lover is perhaps feeling under pressure, in that if he refused to deal with this dog for them along with their other dogs, then said dog might well be PTS. Sorry but to me they sound like totally airy fairy unsuitable owners for this dog and the dog should be PTS, dont even put it through the stress of returning to Bulgaria, IF the rescue will even agree to take it back which i very much doubt.

Not only do your friends have it within their remit to do the right thing by this poor dog, but they also have a duty of care to their neighbour elderly or not. They should make the right decision and do NOT make the poor man feel it is his fault in any way if the dog is PTS.


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## Archangel (18 October 2019)

Your friend is being incredibly selfish. 

She has got her fingers in her ears going "la-la-la" to anything that is going to upset the lovely and convenient "off we go to work and kindly Mr X will let the dogs out".

She needs to pay a professional and proven dog walker/trainer with experience of this type of dog to let the dogs out at lunchtime. 

Your friend needs to take responsibility for her decision to change her circumstances from "let fido 1 and 2 out at lunchtime" to "deal with large challenging semi-feral dog"

Is it early days to leave the dogs together all day - they have only known each other 10 days, who knows what could kick off.


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## Pearlsasinger (18 October 2019)

Clodagh said:



			I really can't. Friend rang him again last night to see how he was and apparantly he is still distressed, he loves all dogs and only doesn't have one now as he feels he is too old for the commitment, it must feel quite personal, particulary if (like me) you have no experience of a feral guarding breed.
Hopefully he will say he just can't. Or his wife will.
		
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Or better still the new owner will act responsibly and decide that it will be safer for all concerned if the dog is in the kennel and run when the owner isn't there.  I just hope the dog remembers who the owner is and doesn't attack them.


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## Clodagh (18 October 2019)

Archangel said:



			Is it early days to leave the dogs together all day - they have only known each other 10 days, who knows what could kick off.
		
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I asked that, as apparently there has been some jealous argy bargy growling stuff anyway. We don't leave our four together when we go out and they have been together all their lives.


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## CorvusCorax (18 October 2019)

I'm another one who hopes I don't read about this in the news  adding family coming over to stay for the weekend sounds like a recipe for disaster


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## {97702} (18 October 2019)

I really really hate this sort of situation, and Iâ€™m afraid I am going to piss off a lot of people with my reply.

IMO of course the dog should not be PTS for what he did.... he is doing what he has been bred to do, BY MANKIND, for generations. 

By all means condemn (or PTS?) the criminally irresponsible idiots who re-homed this dog to a totally unsuitable situation, with people who clearly donâ€™t understand his needs.

And find the dog a decent home where he can be happy.  If that isn't possible - or, more likely, humans cannot be bothered to make enough effort - then PTS a clearly unhappy dog  

A bit off topic but my greyhound boys had a serious fight a few weeks ago - they had lived together in perfect harmony for 6 months prior to that, but something set them off and 38kg Ace pasted my poor 30kg wimp Marty big time.  He meant it too.  I could tell that the rescue charity were sure I would send Ace back to them, but as far as I'm concerned it was MY major failing as an owner which allowed that situation to occur.  I'm devastated it happened, I have put measures in place to ensure it cannot happen again, and thank god Marty has recovered fine and they are back to getting on really well together.  Did I blame Ace for what happened?  Nope, it was MY fault not his, why should Ace be blamed for his natural reactions? 

If more owners were a bit more bloody responsible then a lot of the problems we see with dogs wouldnt happen...


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## Leo Walker (18 October 2019)

Where is this miracle home for a large human aggressive dog going to materialise from? PTS is the best possible outcome for this poor, miserable dog. Its far preferable to living in a hugely unsuitable home, or being shunted off to yet another strange place.


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## {97702} (18 October 2019)

Leo Walker said:



			Where is this miracle home for a large human aggressive dog going to materialise from? PTS is the best possible outcome for this poor, miserable dog. Its far preferable to living in a hugely unsuitable home, or being shunted off to yet another strange place.
		
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The home will be there - they always are, but it is a matter of time and patience. None of which humans have much of when re-homing rescue dogs in my experience.  So as I have said above, if this cannot be arranged then PTS.


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## Equi (18 October 2019)

Very true Lev + leo. The problem is the rescues won't rehome to the home the dog probably would like or needs. They have in their head the idea of what a home should be and that is IT, and the people rehoming have an idea of what they think a perfect dog is and expect it to be that..there is very little grey area. The dogs own choice rarely comes into it. Which is probably why so many working type dogs don't get successfully rehomed. I often struggle to see how rehoming a dog over and over will be beneficial to it. I was watching the show on Ch4 i think its called a dogs home or something...anywho there was a dog who on the outside was lovely but had serious resource guarding issues and was a known attacker (but had NOT broke the skin) this was was then rehomed twice and brought back due to this issue and as far as i know is still currently in the kennels. That is not a rehomable dog to me. Why is time/money being spent on a dog that very very few people will be able to offer a home to?


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## {97702} (18 October 2019)

Yup I agree entirely Equi! That is also why I struggle with the Dogs Trust and other charities who state they will â€˜never put a (physically) healthy dog downâ€™ - highly commendable IF they actually thought of the dogs psychological needs as well â˜¹ï¸


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## Equi (18 October 2019)

And that is the issue with most of them...they think too much with heart not head. I highly commend anyone who works in rescue and charity, but so many people just don't get that sometimes not all animals can be saved.


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## CorvusCorax (18 October 2019)

Most farming in these islands doesn't even operate in the way that necessitates these types of dogs. And in this litigious society too...


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## Equi (19 October 2019)

Quite true! But to the majority a "dog is a dog" and all it needs is love. In boarding kennels its quite clear who has been worked/trained or who has been pampered. A pet wire haired german pointer comes most to mind who made my life hell for a week. That thing needed his entire kennel wood panelled because he kept bouncing and getting his hind paws over the top door, between doors, under doors, through doors..if a part was blocked off he would find a way to get caught somewhere else. When caught if you went near his head you would have no skin left, but he had to be held up to relase him without chopping his legs off. no dog ever had or ever since had done that! He would not be caught all just play bouncing and running away so walkies was a 30min affair on lunch break otherwise he didn't get out and only to be walked by the more senior staff because he would just bolt all around even on a chain...he did not know walk.. Mouthing was a constant occurrence...and this was a 2yo dog. We called his owner and said he needed to leave but his "mummy" just said he was full of life and love and meant no harm and she had never walked him on a lead because she had a big garden for him to run in but noone else could take him...so he had to stay. He was not allowed back. Then there was sweet little wanda the beagle who would sit just far enough from the kennel door that when you opened it she didn't need to move back, she would walk out to the toilet area, then back in when asked. For walkies she would sit and wait for the lead then walk to heal always with her tail in the air then sit to get the lead off again and literally turn around with a smile on her face. I literally don't think i have ever met a nicer dog than her.


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## cbmcts (19 October 2019)

I have a dog who will bite and mean it (broken skin) is very guardy of me and the house and just to add to the problem is huge and strong with it. i adore him but in a lot of ways he is a liability and a nightmare. He's a rescue (and knowing his history I can understand why he is the way he is) but he was and still is a lot of work. His saving grace is that he lunges and bites to get people to back off when he feels threatened, or thinks I'm in danger. Still not acceptable but if he went back for another go at someone I think that's when I'd have to say enough - he'd be too dangerous to keep because he could kill someone. He's a 55kg Rottie Mastiff cross so breeding is part of it. I'm not saying that either of those breeds are inherently dangerous, I've had fantastic rotties who were as good as gold and know lovely mastiffs but both breeds are hard headed, independent and can be territorial. When those traits are mismanaged, the result is not pretty.

This dog is managed within an inch of his life all the time. In the three years I've had him, I trained and trained so that his obedience is top notch so control is there all the time. He's shut away with 95% of visitors, there's only a few people who are allowed in the house with him alone and only me and his dog walker (long time friend, also a trainer) walk him. Going to the vet is a nightmare - vets hurt him so he's not a fan - he wears a headcollar, harness and a full muzzle for control and it's still rare that a vet can get near him without him chucking himself at him. He's had a lot of vet visits as it took a while to diagnose his auto immune disease, not helped by the fact that he is so difficult to handle there. We tried xanax, the dog would be stoned out of his tiny mind until the vet appeared. I considered taking the xanax myself tbf  

In saying all that, he is trainable, intelligent and great fun with those he trusts. He adores children and for such a big clumsy dog is incredibly gentle with them. He has no chase instinct (squirrels run under his nose and he doesn't even look up) is bullied by my 5kg cat and next doors cat too without retaliation from him. He makes me laugh every day. His history is that he belonged to a family from a pup to 18 months and was sent to rescue as they moved and couldn't keep him. I suspect that he was always a bit sharp and was going through the very challenging teenage Kevin stage, possibly getting over protective of the children. The family had done a fair bit of training with him as he knew all his commands, walked nicely on a lead ewtc. He was rehomed to an older couple who had rotts from the rescue previously but unknown to anybody at the time, he was starting to suffer with dementia and we think the dog took the brunt of the confusion and inconsistency that causes. About 6 months in, the rescue started getting angry, rambling messages about the dog left overnight on their voicemail but when they called back the man would say all was fine. Eventually as the situation worsened, they went and collected the dog - as a breed rescue, they rehomed nationwide and the dog was a few hundred miles away - and discovered just how bad the owners health was. It appears that the dog had a bad time of it in that he got a hammering on occasion (an MRI when I had him showed multiple previously broken ribs for instance) and food was a valuable resource to him, he would kill for it. 

I took him on knowing that it was the Last Chance Saloon, if I couldn't manage him he would be PTS. I did wonder, more than once in the first few months, what the hell I was thinking!!!  But he so wants to be a good dog and as I said, I adore him. He can never be trusted but with a lot of training, he will now go behind me if someone he doesn't know approaches him full on rather then go on the defensive. It's my job to make sure that he's not put in a situation where he feels the need to defend himself or me and that means that I have to intervene to avoid those. I am that person who is saying 'don't touch the dog please' and after that 'back off NOW' as some people just will not listen. Food guarding is better ie I walk past him when he's eating now but he is the only dog I've ever had that I can't take something from his mouth even now. I was so delighted the first time he growled at the vet (sounds daft I know) instead of lunging at him. That took around 18 months...small victories and all that.

Would I do it again? Possibly because it has been so rewarding seeing a tense, defensive, frightened dog relax and show his personality as an overgrown clown. He has got me into obedience training and he has taught me a lot. But there are still stresses, I am always aware of who or what is around when we're out and if someone was to make me jump by appearing out of nowhere, would he have a pop at them? Really the answer is that it wouldn't be wise to take another dog as reactive as him in today's litigious society...


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## skinnydipper (19 October 2019)

IMO in the case of Clodagh's friend's dog, the "Rescue" have a lot to answer for. The dog is an unsuitable breed for the average family which is unfair to both the dog and the new owners.

In addition, he has been uprooted from everything familiar, suffered a long and stressful journey probably lasting days and is struggling to cope with an alien environment and lifestyle. Too much is being expected of him and too soon. He needs time and space to find his feet and for the family to get a better idea of his needs.  I would not be in a rush to drag him out and about, he may appear as if he is coping but he is a strong and powerful dog - if suddenly reacted to something can they hold him? I would not be lulled into a false sense of security by a calm demeanour.

It is early days and, once he has settled in and not under so much pressure, he may turn out to be the perfect family dog - I hope so.

Foreign "rescues" are bringing in dogs that are not equipped to cope with living in the average UK household. They are not "saving" these animals, quite the contrary.

A few weeks ago I learned that a Romanian street dog has been living not far from me for 2 years. I have never seen it. It lives in a corner of the living room, goes into the garden to toilet and then back into its corner. Visitors are asked not to approach it, speak to it or look at it. It is too terrified to go for a walk.  What sort of life is that for a dog?  It would have been far better to have left it on the streets in Romania. It may not have lived a long life but would have had a better quality of life than it has here. 

Can't blame a Foreign Dog Rescue for the AS round the corner, he was from the Dog's Trust. The adopter was unaware of the breed and only found out after adoption by looking on the internet. I was talking to his neighbour recently who referred to the dog as a German Shepherd, I corrected him as to the breed and he said "Oh, well same thing". I think this proves Equi's point - "a dog is a dog" to some people.

I was also talking to the owner of the AS a few weeks ago. He said the dog has started to calm down now that he is getting older (he has had him about 6 years). As well as having to replace and fortify the fence, he was telling me how many sets of blinds he has had to replace due to the dog throwing itself at the window to get to a perceived threat.

I am sure there are success stories and that there are plenty of happy, joyful little dogs who have been adopted from abroad but I wonder what percentage of those imported have behavioural problems that people are struggling to cope with. The rescues are not honest or realistic with potential adopters as to what to expect - if they were there would be far fewer adoptions.


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## Moobli (19 October 2019)

Disaster waiting to happen!  I cannot get my head around people in the UK rescuing foreign Livestock Guardian breeds thinking that regular training classes and a walk in the park are going to be suitable for a strong willed, large breed dog bred to protect sheep from bears and wolves.  Shepherds in France are now employing Kangals as their native Pyrenean Mountain dogs havenâ€™t proven themselves tough enough to take on the large and determined predators.  
Someone reasonably local to me has just imported a Caucasian Shepherd.  They have experience of training protection dogs but Iâ€™m still left wondering at the wisdom behind the choice of breed. 
Iâ€™d ask you to implore of this friend to rethink asking a neighbour to let the dog out, as well as not to leave all the dogs together and to make use of the kennel/run until they actually know a bit more of the personality of this dog.  Do they know anything of itâ€™s history?


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## Leo Walker (19 October 2019)

Levrier said:



			The home will be there - they always are, but it is a matter of time and patience. None of which humans have much of when re-homing rescue dogs in my experience.  So as I have said above, if this cannot be arranged then PTS.
		
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But they arent there. These marvelous homes prepared to take on an enormous, feral, aggressive dog and that have the right experience and the right set up dont exist in reality, or only exist for a tiny, tiny handful of very lucky dogs.


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## {97702} (19 October 2019)

Leo Walker said:



			But they arent there. These marvelous homes prepared to take on an enormous, feral, aggressive dog and that have the right experience and the right set up dont exist in reality, or only exist for a tiny, tiny handful of very lucky dogs.
		
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So youâ€™ve just contradicted yourself in your own post? I donâ€™t really get the point you are trying to make to be honest, the option to PTS if a decent home cannot be found is clearly the right one


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## Mrs. Jingle (19 October 2019)

Out of interest, and pondering this today,  do you currently have any rescue centres for failed foreign rescue dogs set up in the Uk yet? I dont think we have any this side of the water yet but we do seem to have similar problems with totally unsuitable dogs being offered to totally unsuitable homes from all corners of the world with little or no ongoing backup and support.

From all the bad press and disaster stories my bet would be that is going to be the next animal rescue fad with the begging bowl out, rescuers rescuing the already rescued. Absolute madness - poor dogs


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## PapaverFollis (19 October 2019)

Why would anyone think "I know what I need in my life... a feral Anatolian Shepherd from Bulgaria! Just the ticket." ? Why?


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## ester (19 October 2019)

I do wonder who is paying to ship it back to Bulgaria if they don't keep him. 

MrsJ I don't think anything specific but there are rescues who I don't think are importing themselves that seem to end up with imports, I guess having had failed rehomes.


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## Amymay (19 October 2019)

MrsJingle said:



			Out of interest, and pondering this today,  do you currently have any rescue centres for failed foreign rescue dogs set up in the Uk yet? I dont think we have any this side of the water yet but we do seem to have similar problems with totally unsuitable dogs being offered to totally unsuitable homes from all corners of the world with little or no ongoing backup and support.

From all the bad press and disaster stories my bet would be that is going to be the next animal rescue fad with the begging bowl out, rescuers rescuing the already rescued. Absolute madness - poor dogs 

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Not as far as Iâ€™m aware.  They seem to end up in â€˜generalâ€™ UK rescues.


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## CorvusCorax (19 October 2019)

Moobli said:



			Someone reasonably local to me has just imported a Caucasian Shepherd.  They have experience of training protection dogs but Iâ€™m still left wondering at the wisdom behind the choice of breed.
		
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There isn't any.


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## Leo Walker (19 October 2019)

Levrier said:



			So youâ€™ve just contradicted yourself in your own post? I donâ€™t really get the point you are trying to make to be honest, the option to PTS if a decent home cannot be found is clearly the right one
		
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No I havent. People saying ludicrous things like rehome this dog just make people think thats an option. Theres more chance of winning the lottery than this dog being successfully rehomed.


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## {97702} (19 October 2019)

Leo Walker said:



			No I havent. People saying ludicrous things like rehome this dog just make people think thats an option. Theres more chance of winning the lottery than this dog being successfully rehomed.
		
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It IS an option, regardless of whether you want to recognise that or not. Iâ€™ve seen a lot of difficult dogs which have been in rescue for a long time which have been successfully found homes through the patience and dedication of rescue co-ordinators.  Whether it is an appropriate option for this dog, who is to say? I canâ€™t judge from the limited amount of knowledge on this thread, nor can anyone else.  

Quite honestly if you think that me saying that re-homing is an option is â€œludicrousâ€ then Iâ€™m afraid you havenâ€™t had much exposure to rescue organisations, and Iâ€™m quite amused that you think Iâ€™m miraculously going to influence some unknown person into thinking that re-homing might be an option just by posting it on a thread on a social media forum ðŸ˜‚


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## Moobli (19 October 2019)

Iâ€™d actually quite like a livestock guardian to keep foxes and out-of-control dogs away, esp at lambing time but in the UK, with the Dangerous Dogs Act, and in Scotland,  with responsible access, itâ€™s never going to happen.


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## CorvusCorax (19 October 2019)

Yes, that's what they're for, though. Dogs like this shouldn't ever be used for 'personal protection' in the same way as random people shouldn't be allowed to own high powered firearms.


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## cbmcts (19 October 2019)

Well to be fair, there are idiots like me who will take a 'difficult' dog so the homes do exist. But even I wouldn't take an imported dog with minimal background information and without solid rescue back up. 

When I was looking for a dog I spoke to someone I know well who is involved with breed rescue. They had nothing suitable (wouldn't eat the cat, even if provoked being the main criteria) but put word out in the rescue world for me. A national rescue got back to them and mentioned that they had this dog, listed all his issues, did my friend think that I'd be suitable, be able to cope? I contacted the rescue who were very upfront and we talked for a couple of hours and I went away to think about it. Once I decided to take him, it was agreed that if it didn't work out for whatever reason I would have him PTS. Going back into kennels for a third time was not an option for this dog. They knew him from the first time he came in and hoped that the effects of his 9 months in the other home could be reversed. Without that agreement in place I wouldn't have taken him.

But, unlike Clodagh's friend I am careful, very, very careful with him even 3 years on and knowing him inside out. The first year I had him, the only time he was unmuzzled and off a lead/longline was at training.  I am the one keeping people away from him despite being 90% sure that there will now be a warning growl rather than an immediate lunge and bite. Why take the chance? I sure as hell wasn't putting him under any stress such as forcing him to interact with visitors in the first 6 months, let alone in the first 6 weeks. He wore a houseline for months so triggers such as touching his collar, going near a food bowl ( even empty!) or the sofa could be trained out without conflict. Funnily enough, the things that other dogs didn't like such as ear cleaning and nail clipping were a doddle as long as a treat is on offer  But he is not a dog you can bully or dominate - unless you're a cat - he is hard headed enough that he will defend himself if he thinks anyone is going to try that so he will never be 'safe' because his tolerance is so low. It's my choice to have him so my responsibility to keep him and others safe. Really that simple. 

I'm actually quite proud of him despite him being most people's idea of a nightmare. Yes, he's hard work, walks aren't a relaxing stroll, my garden is like Fort Knox but he has come so far. He'll always be mortifying at the vets and food will always be a flashpoint but he's so relaxed now and really tries to be a good dog.


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## CorvusCorax (19 October 2019)

ester said:



			I do wonder who is paying to ship it back to Bulgaria if they don't keep him.
		
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Sounds like a guilt trip to me.


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## dree (19 October 2019)

There's also the added problem that most dogs that come from abroad have either been in "kill" rescues, or roaming the streets.  If in a rescue, then the only thing they have known is the catcher's noose....the dogs are treated horrifically.  Yet they (rescue in uk) pick on one dog.....rescue it....and leave behind the others.  I've always said that most of these dogs are highly unpredictable because they have very little contact with humans, and that contact is usually bad.  And why pick that one dog?  Why not put them all to sleep humanely rather than bring one over here and leave the others to their horrific conditions?  The other problem is that most of them are feral.....there are about 100 foreign dogs running about in the uk and no-one can catch them.  I rather suspect that this dog, with his strength, would not be contained by a kennel and run.

It's an awful situation.  If he were mine, he would be straight to the vets.....sod the rescue.  They've already let the dog down.....it has no wish to live in a house, or even in the garden.  It wants a job, and if it doesn't find it, someone or something (one of their dogs?) will pay the price.  Perhaps you could point out to your friend that her dogs are at a very high risk of being killed.....as is her neighbour.  What an awful situation.


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## dree (20 October 2019)

Could you inform your local council re: DDA and this dog?  You could do it anonomously?  A bit sneaky, I know.


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## Aru (20 October 2019)

I'd euthanise him in a heartbeat tbh. 

There is no shortage of dogs that dont want to try and attack unprovoked needing homes. Hes a ticking timebomb. Even muzzled he has the potential to do damage....and your neighbours sound woefully unprepared.

I flat out do not understand the appeal of keeping dangerous dogs alive. All it takes is one slip up in management...


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## Clodagh (20 October 2019)

skinnydipper said:



			I
A few weeks ago I learned that a Romanian street dog has been living not far from me for 2 years. I have never seen it. It lives in a corner of the living room, goes into the garden to toilet and then back into its corner. Visitors are asked not to approach it, speak to it or look at it. It is too terrified to go for a walk.  What sort of life is that for a dog?  It would have been far better to have left it on the streets in Romania. It may not have lived a long life but would have had a better quality of life than it has here.
.
		
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That is so sad. But I bet they love it lots and lots. :-(


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## Clodagh (20 October 2019)

MrsJingle said:



			Out of interest, and pondering this today,  do you currently have any rescue centres for failed foreign rescue dogs set up in the Uk yet? I dont think we have any this side of the water yet but we do seem to have similar problems with totally unsuitable dogs being offered to totally unsuitable homes from all corners of the world with little or no ongoing backup and support.

From all the bad press and disaster stories my bet would be that is going to be the next animal rescue fad with the begging bowl out, rescuers rescuing the already rescued. Absolute madness - poor dogs 

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I think you just dump them on already overloaded UK rescues.


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## skinnydipper (20 October 2019)

Clodagh said:



			That is so sad. But I bet they love it lots and lots. :-(
		
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Just getting through each day must be hell, poor soul. 

Evidently they adopted it because it looked like their last dog.


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## deb_l222 (20 October 2019)

Leo Walker said:



			But they arent there. These marvelous homes prepared to take on an enormous, feral, aggressive dog and that have the right experience and the right set up dont exist in reality, or only exist for a tiny, tiny handful of very lucky dogs.
		
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I would agree with this totally.  Most people (at least 90%) who contact rescue centres have a rose tinted view of what taking on a â€˜rescueâ€™ is all about.  They believe all the dog needs is love and fuss and lots of it when the reality is, they need the total opposite, for the first few weeks at least.  A dog needs to be a dog, not a toy!

Specialist homes, who are prepared to take on aggressive animals with issues do exist but theyâ€™re not there in abundance. 

The harsh reality of rescue is people will lie and tell you all sorts of crap just to get a dog.  Most of the time you can sort the wheat from the chaff but some people are GOOD!!

Recent true story.  Cocker spaniel, nine years old, lovely girl but an untreated dry eye condition has left her almost blind.  Manages very well once she knows her surroundings.  Rehomed to a couple â€œoh yes, we understand her needs and can cope.  We wonâ€™t move the furnitureâ€.  Blah blah blah

Returned 48 hours later because she kept bumping into things!!  People are idiots but they can be very convincing idiots


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## Amymay (20 October 2019)

Thatâ€™s so sad deb ðŸ˜”


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## {97702} (20 October 2019)

deb_l222 said:



			Specialist homes, who are prepared to take on aggressive animals with issues do exist but theyâ€™re not there in abundance
		
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Iâ€™ve never said at any time that these sort of homes are in abundance or easy to find - Iâ€™ve just said that they ARE there given time and patience, neither of which people usually have when finding homes for difficult dogs.

Iâ€™m only too well aware of the crap people talk when offering a home to rescue dogs - and the reasons they give for returning them - from my volunteering with greyhound and other rescues over the last 20 years. Hence my rant that people need to take responsibility not treat dogs/animals as disposable items â˜¹ï¸â˜¹ï¸


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## Blazingsaddles (21 October 2019)

Moobli said:



			Iâ€™d actually quite like a livestock guardian to keep foxes and out-of-control dogs away, esp at lambing time but in the UK, with the Dangerous Dogs Act, and in Scotland,  with responsible access, itâ€™s never going to happen.
		
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What you need is a guardian donkey! One that has been brought up with what it is to protect. Donkeys naturally donâ€™t like dogs/foxes/wolves etc.


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## meleeka (21 October 2019)

Blazingsaddles said:



			What you need is a guardian donkey! One that has been brought up with what it is to protect. Donkeys naturally donâ€™t like dogs/foxes/wolves etc.
		
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Or a mini shetland! My field has a footpath alongside. We donâ€™t get any trouble with dogs since Iâ€™ve had the mini. Heâ€™ll chase anything out ðŸ˜‚


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## Moobli (21 October 2019)

Blazingsaddles said:



			What you need is a guardian donkey! One that has been brought up with what it is to protect. Donkeys naturally donâ€™t like dogs/foxes/wolves etc.
		
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We have some alpacas which are fairly protective of â€œtheirâ€ sheep but at the moment with thousands of sheep spread over thousands of acres itâ€™s not so easy.  Iâ€™d be considering a livestock guardian if we ever get our own place and Lynx/wolves get reintroduced (unlikely but you never know!).  Iâ€™m much more a dog person than a donkey person though so a LGD would appeal for their reasons too.


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## Moobli (21 October 2019)

meleeka said:



			Or a mini shetland! My field has a footpath alongside. We donâ€™t get any trouble with dogs since Iâ€™ve had the mini. Heâ€™ll chase anything out ðŸ˜‚
		
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ðŸ˜‚. Iâ€™ve got two of those .


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## Moobli (21 October 2019)

@Clodagh - do you know how the weekend went? ðŸ¤¦ðŸ¼â€â™€ï¸  Does the neighbour still have all his limbs?


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## Clodagh (21 October 2019)

Moobli said:



			We have some alpacas which are fairly protective of â€œtheirâ€ sheep but at the moment with thousands of sheep spread over thousands of acres itâ€™s not so easy.  Iâ€™d be considering a livestock guardian if we ever get our own place and Lynx/wolves get reintroduced (unlikely but you never know!).  Iâ€™m much more a dog person than a donkey person though so a LGD would appeal for their reasons too.
		
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I was musiing about this yesterday - when no one seems to care if the wildcat goes extinct, what are lynx going to bring to the party? Is it because they are bigger and therefore 'sexier'?


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## Clodagh (21 October 2019)

Moobli said:



@Clodagh - do you know how the weekend went? ðŸ¤¦ðŸ¼â€â™€ï¸  Does the neighbour still have all his limbs?
		
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I won't find out until tomorrow. Promise you will all get updated!


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## Moobli (21 October 2019)

Clodagh said:



			I was musiing about this yesterday - when no one seems to care if the wildcat goes extinct, what are lynx going to bring to the party? Is it because they are bigger and therefore 'sexier'?
		
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Absolutely no idea, except the conservationists seem to think theyâ€™ll just tuck into the abundance of deer and leave domestic livestock alone ðŸ™„. My preference would be to throw all the money theyâ€™re spending on funding a lynx reintroduction into saving the Scottish wildcat..


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## Clodagh (21 October 2019)

Moobli said:



			Absolutely no idea, except the conservationists seem to think theyâ€™ll just tuck into the abundance of deer and leave domestic livestock alone ðŸ™„. My preference would be to throw all the money theyâ€™re spending on funding a lynx reintroduction into saving the Scottish wildcat..
		
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I am convinced that a lynx would soon decide that a ewe was easier meat than a red deer. Although your blackface boys can look after themselves, I expect.


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## SadKen (22 October 2019)

Any update? Hope it wasn't awful...

I saw a gorgeous 18mo rescue on the GSD site a few days ago.  I couldn't stop thinking about him (still can't) - and the site said he was good with dogs having lived with one, but needed a more active home.  Apparently he had gone to nip one of the owner's kids whilst riding past on a bike, which the rescue feels was frustration (he lives in a 2nd floor apartment, poor sod). 

I would LOVE to take that dog, but just don't know whether it would be worth the risk as my boys are both entire and get on beautifully - we have never had anything approximating a real cross word between any of our various pairs of dogs, and none of them would ever dream of biting a human (beyond mouthing as pups, which I manage).  And that's me with reservations about rehoming a GSD who sounds like a really good dog, a breed I know relatively well, and which we are geared up to own!

I read things like this and it makes my blood run cold. The rescue are criminally careless in this case IMO.


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## hopscotch bandit (22 October 2019)

dree said:



			Why not put them all to sleep humanely rather than bring one over here and leave the others to their horrific conditions?
		
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I think the issue (and I speak from experience on this) is that dogs from foreign eastern european countries are not as a general rule pts humanely. They are injected with all manner of things like bleach or stabbed to death, or fed liquid parrafin so they die a hideous and agonising death.  This is why people get involved.

Personally if I were rich I would just gather as much money as I could, take a small army of vets and go around the kennels and pts the most aggressive dogs with barbituates in a humane way. I don't really consider it humane to transport an aggressive dog half way around the world when it will never be happy.  

Having said that I have seen some wonderfully happy ex street dogs as I know someone who used to import them.  One went to another friend of ours and is a lovely well balanced dog.

The friend has a collection which she then found were unsuitable for rehoming but rather than have them PTS she has rehomed them herself and bless her for doing so.  They get walked twice a day, albeit on leads and never loose and they live as good a lives as they can, she has given them a second chance at life and she did it out of the goodness of her heart most probably for the reasons in paragraph 1.  Would they be better off dead?  I don't think so....


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## hopscotch bandit (22 October 2019)

Clodagh said:



			That is so sad. But I bet they love it lots and lots. :-(
		
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Why don't they get a dog behaviourist to interact with the dog and see if there is anyway of reaching it. It is obviously traumatised.  So sad.


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## Clodagh (22 October 2019)

Update as promised.
Neighbour got bitten. Not too badly thank goodness. Family survived although dog growled a lot.
They are getting a behaviourist in. 
Full report when home on â€˜puter.


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## CorvusCorax (22 October 2019)

Jeez 

So the 'intruder' has come in twice and the dog has chased him away, this time using his teeth.
He growled all weekend, and the family have now left.
WHAT DOES ANYONE THINK IS GOING TO HAPPEN NEXT?

I hope your neighbours have good insurance, as the behaviourist is probably going to end up getting it as well.


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## ester (22 October 2019)

Lets hope the behaviourist tells them straight.


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## MurphysMinder (22 October 2019)

ester said:



			Lets hope the behaviourist tells them straight.
		
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Being cynical , probably not before charging them a fortune for methods that wonâ€™t work !


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## Moobli (22 October 2019)

No big surprise there then ðŸ¤¦ðŸ¼â€â™€ï¸  

What is your friendâ€™s response to the dog biting the neighbour/growling at the family members all weekend?  Do they think they can rehabilitate this dog?  Do they know anything of his history prior to being brought over?  I commend their kind hearts for wanting to help this poor dog but I do hope they donâ€™t involve any other innocent parties in the venture and are totally honest with the professionals they employ to help.


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## Moobli (22 October 2019)

SadKen said:



			Any update? Hope it wasn't awful...

I saw a gorgeous 18mo rescue on the GSD site a few days ago.  I couldn't stop thinking about him (still can't) - and the site said he was good with dogs having lived with one, but needed a more active home.  Apparently he had gone to nip one of the owner's kids whilst riding past on a bike, which the rescue feels was frustration (he lives in a 2nd floor apartment, poor sod).

I would LOVE to take that dog, but just don't know whether it would be worth the risk as my boys are both entire and get on beautifully - we have never had anything approximating a real cross word between any of our various pairs of dogs, and none of them would ever dream of biting a human (beyond mouthing as pups, which I manage).  And that's me with reservations about rehoming a GSD who sounds like a really good dog, a breed I know relatively well, and which we are geared up to own!

I read things like this and it makes my blood run cold. The rescue are criminally careless in this case IMO.
		
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You could always offer to foster this dog with a view to rehoming if he gets on with your current dogs?  If heâ€™s in kennels anyway then even a probationary period in a family home will give a good insight into his character and temperament for any potential future home if he didnâ€™t work out with you.  It would of course depend on the rescueâ€™s rules though as some may not allow another male into a home with entire males.  He sounds lovely!


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## skinnydipper (22 October 2019)

I feel so sorry for this dog.  From the outset he has been in a position he shouldn't be in. Ultimately he may lose his life because of the ignorance/stupidity of people.

If he bites it will not be an "unprovoked attack" or "out of the blue". He has made it clear he is not coping and, instead of the pressure being lifted, he was put under even more stress.

I think he has done well not to escalate further. He has actually shown restraint but his warnings were ignored.

If the current owners are not going to keep the dog, then the Rescue should be contacted. They probably have a clause in the contract stating the dog should go back to them. If they are well organised they will probably have foster homes or a kennel in the UK for instances when the adoption does not work out.


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## Clodagh (22 October 2019)

I didn't actually ask friend directly, he looked very stressed so I asked a mutual friend.
Apparently the neighbour was very nervous when he met the dog again, so it's not really the dogs fault. He is happy and settled and a lovely dog and deserves longer to adjust. Family are going to come round more often so he can get to know them.
He is going to be kennelled during the day so neighbour can come over and do the others. So at least my original worry is addressed. I assume behaviourists have insurance? I doubt this dog is insurable as even when I insure a pup I get asked 'Does it show any behavioural problems'.


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## CorvusCorax (22 October 2019)

**Head plummets at warp speed towards desk**


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## skinnydipper (22 October 2019)

Clodagh said:



			I didn't actually ask friend directly, he looked very stressed so I asked a mutual friend.
Apparently the neighbour was very nervous when he met the dog again, so it's not really the dogs fault. He is happy and settled and a lovely dog and deserves longer to adjust. Family are going to come round more often so he can get to know them.
He is going to be kennelled during the day so neighbour can come over and do the others. So at least my original worry is addressed. I assume behaviourists have insurance? I doubt this dog is insurable as even when I insure a pup I get asked 'Does it show any behavioural problems'.
		
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I wouldn't be pushing him to meet the family, he needs to be at ease in the current set up first.

I hope they listen to the dog and go at his pace.

They might want to look at Kendal Shepherd's Ladder of Aggression so that they can spot the early signs that he is uncomfortable and take heed.

I hope very much that it works out.


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## planete (22 October 2019)

I became a member of the Dogs' Trust to have public liability when I adopted my last foster who had shown aggression before coming to me (she has not bitten anybody since being here).  I just hope the behaviourist is very experienced with this kind of dog.  And, if he is, having seen a good one at work, he more than deserves whatever fee he charges.


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## Blazingsaddles (22 October 2019)

skinnydipper said:



			I wouldn't be pushing him to meet the family, he needs to be at ease in the current set up first.

I hope they listen to the dog and go at his pace.

They might want to look at Kendal Shepherd's Ladder of Aggression so that they can spot the early signs that he is uncomfortable and take heed.

I hope very much that it works out.
		
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The difficulty is the dog has already sussed that biting unfavourable (in his eyes) humans is an effective method of controlling their behaviour and thus relieving whatever fear the human unintentionally creates in the dog. That is going to be difficult and time consuming to correct.ðŸ™‚


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## skinnydipper (22 October 2019)

Blazingsaddles said:



			The difficulty is the dog has already sussed that biting unfavourable (in his eyes) humans is an effective method of controlling their behaviour and thus relieving whatever fear the human unintentionally creates in the dog. That is going to be difficult and time consuming to correct.ðŸ™‚
		
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Did you quote my post in error?


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## Blazingsaddles (22 October 2019)

skinnydipper said:



			Did you quote my post in error?
		
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No. Apologies, I wasnâ€™t clear. I was referring to the ladder of aggression. The first attack occurred due to another dogs noisy reaction to a person passing the house - there were no warning signs - the dog went straight to the top of the ladder.


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## CorvusCorax (22 October 2019)

Well in fairness we're only getting the OP's account of the neighbour's perception of what happened.
I deal with a lot of people who can't see or don't want to see that the dog in front of them is unhappy/stressed/uncomfortable, even if their paw is dangling, their ears are wrapped and their eyes are rolling back in their heads.
It could be that the dog has been giving them big red flashing neon warning signs from day one, but they don't know enough or don't want to acknowledge them.

There are dogs I can spot, that I don't want to be anywhere near, the moment they exit the car, other people seem to want to fling themselves on these dogs for a cuddle.

ETA Whilst I'm realistic about the risks/the highs and lows of training, and I have a battery of jokes about the subject, I don't like getting bitten. It hurts like hell, it carries huge infection risk and I need my hands for work. The first time I was bitten properly (and I managed to make it into my 30s before this happened, which is a minor miracle, despite living with and training Big Dogs since I was a nipper) I resolved to try not to let it happen again. It has, of course, and every time, I learn a little more about how to avoid it the next time.
I don't know why anyone would put themselves in a position where it would happen repeatedly.


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## Clodagh (22 October 2019)

And to be fair I have no idea what is actually happening, it is all hearsay.

To agree with people not knowing what's wht. A friend rehomed a labrador and posted lots of photos of it having cuddles, ready to go for a walk, that sort of thing. I am a total novice yet could see the dog was completely petrified. As CC said people see what they want to see.


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## skinnydipper (22 October 2019)

Blazingsaddles said:



			No. Apologies, I wasnâ€™t clear. I was referring to the ladder of aggression. The first attack occurred due to another dogs noisy reaction to a person passing the house - there were no warning signs - the dog went straight to the top of the ladder.
		
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CC's post puts it far better than I can.

If we forget about the breed for a moment and think about what the dog has been through and then we can try and understand why he was reactive.

This dog has been under a huge amount of stress and the owners have just ploughed on with their own agenda regardless. 

A dog that intends to bite does not miss. People should never think "Oh, if I hadn't moved my hand/jumped back/ or whatever I would have been bitten" - if you weren't bitten it is because the dog did not intend to bite. I forget the exact number but a dog can bite about 20 times in 5 seconds, 3 to 4 times a second. Also if he had intended to do serious damage he would have done so.

Redirected aggression is not uncommon.  We have a lab and a cockerpoo live 3 doors down.  They throw themselves at the window or side gate  if I pass with my dog (she is not special - they do it to all passing dogs). The lab turned and bit the cockerpoo in frustration because it could not reach my dog.  (I don't subject her to unnecessary stress and only walk up the road now .)


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## skinnydipper (22 October 2019)

Deleted as off topic.


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## skinnydipper (22 October 2019)

Clodagh said:



			And to be fair I have no idea what is actually happening, it is all hearsay.

To agree with people not knowing what's wht. A friend rehomed a labrador and posted lots of photos of it having cuddles, ready to go for a walk, that sort of thing. I am a total novice yet could see the dog was completely petrified. As CC said people see what they want to see.
		
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It makes me cringe when I see the photos of babies and children hugging and crawling over dogs, when with one glance at the dog you can see it is totally stressed and unhappy.  Next news the parents will say the dog bit the child without warning.


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## CorvusCorax (22 October 2019)

That's all fairly normal testing for a dog intended for law enforcement or tactical work.
A criminal might try and escape through water, climb over things, might knock things over/on top of the dog, try and fight him off, of course, someone being bitten will scream and shout etc etc so the dog has to sustain the hold under immense stress.
Some sports simulate these stresses, if even in a very diluted way.
That's a dog that wouldn't worry me too much. Didn't pay any attention to any of the other people who were not agitating him and seemed to have a good positive relationship with the handler.

((Deleted link as per Skinnydipper's point that it's off topic))


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## skinnydipper (22 October 2019)

CorvusCorax said:



			That's all fairly normal testing for a dog intended for law enforcement or tactical work.
A criminal might try and escape through water, climb over things, might knock things over/on top of the dog, try and fight him off, of course, someone being bitten will scream and shout etc etc so the dog has to sustain the hold under immense stress.
Some sports simulate these stresses, if even in a very diluted way.
That's a dog that wouldn't worry me too much. Didn't pay any attention to any of the other people who were not agitating him and seemed to have a good positive relationship with the handler.
		
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Thanks for explaining.  I can appreciate the skill required to train a dog to that level.

I'll just continue to bumble about with lure and reward


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## CorvusCorax (22 October 2019)

Good grips are genetic  and courage comes from the heart. Those are things that you can't train.


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## skinnydipper (22 October 2019)

CorvusCorax said:



			Good grips are genetic 

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and I don't think they are called Maligators for nothing.


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## CorvusCorax (22 October 2019)

skinnydipper said:



			and I don't think they are called Maligators for nothing.
		
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I wouldn't have one ðŸ˜‚


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## ester (22 October 2019)

I'm just noticing those that wrap legs too now!


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## CorvusCorax (22 October 2019)

ester said:



			I'm just noticing those that wrap legs too now!
		
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Bit half-hearted lol!!

Apologies Clodagh, back to the topic in hand


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## SatansLittleHelper (1 November 2019)

So far it sounds to me that everyone surrounding that poor dog is as dumb as a box of rocks..!!!!
They are all expecting far too much too soon. 
I have a fair amount of experience with giant breeds of many varieties and the "pack leader" crap works less on flock guardians than others. They are bred to be independent thinkers, working alone and being self sufficient. They often get labelled as "stubborn" but why the hell would, or indeed should, a dog bred to work on it's own instincts have any trust in your opinions..?? That's not how their brains are wired to work. 
They can be great pets with the right owners BUT very few people are the right owners. 
Sounds to me like this whole debacle is going to end very badly for everyone. Poor, poor dog ðŸ˜¥ðŸ˜¥ðŸ˜¥


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## Clodagh (1 November 2019)

I haven't seen friend since they had the behaviourist, and I am agog for an update! Will seek him out next week.


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## Ranyhyn (1 November 2019)

These dogs are bred to make their own decisions, they are not easy dogs and for me totally unsuitable for a busy home environment.


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## twiggy2 (1 November 2019)

You need to see your friend and get an update for us, hope it's not bad news


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## {97702} (1 November 2019)

SatansLittleHelper said:



			So far it sounds to me that everyone surrounding that poor dog is as dumb as a box of rocks..!!!!
They are all expecting far too much too soon. 
I have a fair amount of experience with giant breeds of many varieties and the "pack leader" crap works less on flock guardians than others. They are bred to be independent thinkers, working alone and being self sufficient. They often get labelled as "stubborn" but why the hell would, or indeed should, a dog bred to work on it's own instincts have any trust in your opinions..?? That's not how their brains are wired to work. 
They can be great pets with the right owners BUT very few people are the right owners. 
Sounds to me like this whole debacle is going to end very badly for everyone. Poor, poor dog ðŸ˜¥ðŸ˜¥ðŸ˜¥
		
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Great post, really good to see someone talking from experience & understanding (without being anthropomorphic) the dogs point of view


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## Goldenstar (2 November 2019)

I trained a ASD when lived in Turkey he was a lovely boy bought to guard  the area around the basement of the apartment .
I taught him some basic commands and socialised him with the janitors children took him out and about enough to get him confident .
One day while I was out they cut off half his ears with scissors poor boy .
They are a dog of the Anatolian plateau they run with the sheep or goats in with the herd and come back down to the villages in the evening I have seen them working they are magnificent they will take on wolves .
However they not inside dogs imo they have super thick coats poor dog itâ€™s not his fault .


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## Amymay (2 November 2019)

Jesus, GS ðŸ˜©


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## {97702} (2 November 2019)

amymay said:



			Jesus, GS ðŸ˜©
		
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They still do that to greyhounds in Ireland very regularly.....


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## Clodagh (10 November 2019)

Belated update.
The behaviourist was useless and just suggested things they were already doing.
The dog is settling in well and has stopped trying to kill the neighbour over the garden fence,. he now sits down quietly when told to do so. 
Thats about all I got, it was an 'in passing' conversation. I hope it does work out though, it sounds like its going the right way.


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## splashgirl45 (10 November 2019)

lets hope so....and that the dog has a good quality of life and isnt shut away from everyone....


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## Clodagh (10 November 2019)

splashgirl45 said:



			lets hope so....and that the dog has a good quality of life and isnt shut away from everyone....
		
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I'm not sure that being shut away is the worst thing that can happen to an antisocial dog. I had a very neurotic kelpie x heeler years ago and she was always shut away when people came round, she much preferred it.
He is with their dogs normally I gather and they are all walked together. I am not saying you are wrong about his quality of life, I do hope he is adjusting.


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## splashgirl45 (10 November 2019)

what i meant was shut away all of the time not just when people came.  hopefully he has integrated with their dogs ok so may eventually copy their behaviour...


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## CorvusCorax (14 November 2019)

Just watching a show on Channel 5...Anatolian piss discourages cheetahs from hunting and killing the goats they protect. Wherever they go, they mark their territory and that keeps the big cats away from the livestock. Can't think why anyone would think a type of dog with that sort of commanding presence would fit seamlessly into an average pet home....


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## splashgirl45 (14 November 2019)

yes i just watched that,  interesting program especially with the pit bull puppy calming the young boy and getting him to communicate..


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## CorvusCorax (14 November 2019)

It's on +1 now for anyone who's interested.


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## TheOldTrout (14 November 2019)

I watched that programme too - loved Xena the pitbull and the young boy!


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## Ranyhyn (15 November 2019)

We toyed with a Maremma, same LGD type. Even for us where she could stay out on the farm and be her true self, without curtailing her instinct, it was too much a risk. What If my daughter brought a friend round? Lost ramblers, stray dogs? 
Instead we got a GSD who accepts strangers disinterestedly at our request.


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