# Anyone on here of legal bent?



## Alec Swan (17 July 2015)

.. and if you are,  when a 'Name' with a 'Prefix' is accepted by a PIA and it's issued,  who would own the Intellectual Property Rights to that name?  Would it be the Grantor or the Grantee?

Alec.


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## CBAnglo (17 July 2015)

I am not really sure I understand the question.  You don't own intellectual property rights; you have the right to enforce them i.e. sue someone for infringement.  These rights can be assigned if that is what you are asking?


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## The Fuzzy Furry (17 July 2015)

I think its still: you register a prefix with a pia, but also with the central prefix register. 
With the CPR, nobody can use your prefix for your breed type. If the pia is a breed register then again your prefix cannot be used with the pia by anyone ekse.

However,  if you for example  register Suffolk with the ISH then someone can use (and register ) the name Suffolk  for the SPSBS if not already registered with them,, if you follow my drift? 

I have my prefix registered with 3 of the native breed societies and also the CPR too  Theoretically you could register my prefix with the AHS or something else tho, but you could never use it if you wanted to breed Exmoors, Fell ponies or Welsh


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## Maesfen (17 July 2015)

Perfectly put FF!


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## Alec Swan (17 July 2015)

I should have made a better job of the question!  Attempt MkII;

If a PIA accept and grant a name for a horse,  and if the passport is issued with that name,  including a prefix,  are there any Intellectual Property Rights to that name,  and if there are,  who holds those Rights?  

The reason for asking is that we bred a foal,  and sold it as a two year old.  The original PIA have permitted the new owner to change the name (or at least have the registered name hived off so that it's now in brackets).  I've spoken with DEFRA and they advise me that they have no real feelings on the matter and leave it to the individual PIAs.  In conversation with the PIA concerned,  their Director assures me that their main focus is to support breeders.  Permitting subsequent owners to change an animal's name,  is currying favours with the new owner,  not the breeder and were there an issuing authority who refused to allow name changes without the breeder's consent,  then THAT would be supporting,  as they claim,  the breeder.  Such a PIA would also,  amongst Sport Horse breeders have a great deal of support,  and so increased registration requests,  I'd have thought.  Let's face it,  who buys a horse because of its name?  Very few I'd suggest.

I've had several lengthy conversations with another breeder on here who is equally annoyed at the practice,  and my thoughts are that there may be IP Rights which are the rights of the person who creates the name, &#8230;&#8230;.. or are those Rights retained by the PIA?

Alec.


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## The Fuzzy Furry (17 July 2015)

Alec, i think a chat with bhs legal helpline might help you if you are a member.

i have never heard of a PIA dropping or bracketing a prefix or suffix.
They only way round is very dodgy: throw away passport and re - register with a generic PIA, but thats not ethical at all or legal.


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## Alec Swan (17 July 2015)

The Fuzzy Furry said:



			&#8230;&#8230;..

i have never heard of a PIA dropping or bracketing a prefix or suffix.
&#8230;&#8230;.. .
		
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It's common practice.  I'll send you a PM to illustrate the point.

Thanks for your response.

Alec.


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## The Fuzzy Furry (17 July 2015)

Not in pony world of registered breeds it isn't.

How appalling for you!


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## Alec Swan (17 July 2015)

TFF,

when you've read and researched the points which I've sent you,  I'd be interested to hear your response,  and publicly if you wish! 

Alec.

ets.  I'm not a BHS member,  so have no way in for legal advice.  I do know that when Weatherbys,  a few years ago,  sold off a part-bred register to another,  the IP Rights to names went with the sale. a.


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## The Fuzzy Furry (17 July 2015)

Having read your pm, that is appalling! 

I would be asking to see the full regulations of that society,  and getting them to show me exactly where they have a unilateral edict to make a total change to a horse's previously registered name :mad3:


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## Alec Swan (17 July 2015)

For those with an interest,  the PIA are the Anglo European Studbook,  and they certainly aren't alone.  They also have the gall to assure Breeders that it's the Breeders interests that they represent!  The more cynical may consider that it's the funding which arrives via a change of name which is at the heart of the matter.

I would suggest that anyone who is now going through the throws of registering foals,  enquires as to their PIA's policies on the matter.  If you aren't bothered,  then it's not a problem,  but if it matters to you,  then I'd steer clear of the AES and any other licensing authority which fails to give any assurances.

Alec.


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## CBAnglo (17 July 2015)

Alec Swan said:



			I should have made a better job of the question!  Attempt MkII;

If a PIA accept and grant a name for a horse,  and if the passport is issued with that name,  including a prefix,  are there any Intellectual Property Rights to that name,  and if there are,  who holds those Rights?
		
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I don't know anything about breeding or registrations.  However at a basic level then as I said above you do not own IPR you merely have the right to enforce them.  Think of them as a negative right I.e. The right to stop someone doing something.

First there must be some intellectual property; I am not sure where it is here?  At a basic level you have the right to the prefix so no-one else can use it with that registration body.  They can use it with another body.  Therefore your IPR is limited.

In the scenario you have described I gather that the person has changed the name to something else; you have no right, as I understand it, to prohibit that person from doing so (unless you had a separate agreement to that effect?).


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## Alec Swan (17 July 2015)

Thank you CBAnglo and for your thoughts.  Your last sentence refers to 'the person',  presumably the new owner.  My argument would be with the PIA which granted to me,  and sold to me the right to a name.  My question regarding IP Rights would be 'Do I have the Right to prevent the AES from taking such an action,  i.e. the change of name'? &#8230;&#8230;.. and if I do have that Right,  then presumably their decision can be reversed.  

Alec.


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## CBAnglo (17 July 2015)

Alec Swan said:



			Thank you CBAnglo and for your thoughts.  Your last sentence refers to 'the person',  presumably the new owner.  My argument would be with the PIA which granted to me,  and sold to me the right to a name.  My question regarding IP Rights would be 'Do I have the Right to prevent the AES from taking such an action,  i.e. the change of name'? &#8230;&#8230;.. and if I do have that Right,  then presumably their decision can be reversed.  

Alec.
		
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Sorry I don't know what the legal relationship is between you and the PIA.  Is it that they are just a registration body or are they actually selling you the right to use a name?  If the later, then you would have the right to prevent others using that name with that PIA but I do not see that you force the new owner to keep the registered name.  Unless you have a contract with the new owner (and then you have to sue for breach of contract and prove damages etc).


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## Alec Swan (18 July 2015)

Thank you everyone for your thoughts.  The old adage that "When your pride hurts your pocket,  then pocket your pride",  springs to mind.  It's irksome,  but that's all,  and as there's no apparent or clear legal precedent,  so it won't be worth the grief.  Perhaps others will learn from my oversight.  

Alec.


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## Maesfen (18 July 2015)

Alec.  Do you have a registered prefix with the CPR?  If so, is that prefix registered with use for the AES?  If yes for both then I'm pretty sure the AES have broken their bond with the CPR and you by allowing a change of name (including of prefix) without applying to you for permission for that change.  If your prefix isn't registered for use with AES then, sorry, there's nothing you can do, galling as it might seem.  The BSJA re-named one of mine once before I had registered the prefix but even so, back then, they could change names at the drop of a hat as long as you came up with the cash to do so; think of ones like the Sanyo and Everest horses.  Now I think they are only supposed to accept the first registered name on the passport


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## CBAnglo (18 July 2015)

I have been giving this some further thought; if the buyer has changed the name to their prefix therefore alluding to the fact that they have bred the horse then you might have a claim for passing off (under tort).  It's an interesting one.  

I have advised in relation to the acquisition of sports horses and for the reasons I noted above we always specified the names in the contracts.  In those cases the horses were already quite well known so it was more of a case of dropping names of sponsors etc.


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## Maesfen (18 July 2015)

For future reference.

I don't know if BD or BS do this but with BE, if a member, you can do a lifetime reregistration of your youngstock with them which means they are unable to compete under any other name without your express permission.  Might be worth checking out.


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## Lgd (31 July 2015)

AES don't subscribe to the central prefix register - or certainly did not when my 3yo was registered.
For European studbooks you can change the name but have to pay to do so and the origianl name is still recorded in the studbook records and you would still be the registered breeder in the passport. It just would not be obvious when it was competing.

ETA if you register with BD you have to use the passport name now. So if you registered horse as a foal, if someone subsequently re-registered it as an adult it would have to use the same name as originally registered


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## sywell (5 August 2015)

The Fuzzy Furry said:



			Having read your pm, that is appalling! 

I would be asking to see the full regulations of that society,  and getting them to show me exactly where they have a unilateral edict to make a total change to a horse's previously registered name :mad3:
		
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I have felt for a long time that we should have a method supported by BEF that a horse may have a registered competition name but the original breed society name always remains on its passport there could be a small charge for this of £100 but not an excessive charge. I notice when a top competitor bourght a Westphalian horse the name was changed this makes it difficult for researchers to follow the history of  horses as Upsarla University wanted to see if the breeding policies of studbooks like the KWPN and Hanover produced horses that had a longer life in competition because of the breeding policies.


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## Alec Swan (5 August 2015)

What I find equally irritating is that AES will be insistent that it's the Breeders who they support.  How they can claim that is beyond me.  When a buyer views a horse,  would it ever be likely that the animal would be turned down simply because the passport name couldn't be changed?  Would it be so difficult to have a condition attached to registration that the horse's name couldn't be changed without the Breeder's consent?  Were this to happen,  then if the buyer were to be insistent upon a name change,  then it would be a point for the buyer and seller to agree to and before the point of sale.  Simple?  Too simple for AES apparently,  and just how they believe that their stance will encourage others to register youngsters with them,  makes for no sense.  I will never use their services again,  and would advise others to make the point with them.

Alec.


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## crabbymare (5 August 2015)

I think there should be some discussion with the breed societies alongthe lines sywell has said whereby if the society charges £100 for a name chance and 1 horse in 100 would have a name change. then if a breeder wants a specific name or prefix NOT to be changed they can pay lets say £200 at foal registration and then only a prefix/suffix can be added to a name or a name could be changed (depending on what part the breeder has "fixed") but the breeders prefix/suffix remains. the societies would not lose out on revenue as I would think the amount of horses being registered with a permanent name would outnumber those that would have a name change and the breeders would be able to name their offspring without it being changed.


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## Maesfen (5 August 2015)

crabbymare said:



			I think there should be some discussion with the breed societies alongthe lines sywell has said whereby if the society charges £100 for a name chance and 1 horse in 100 would have a name change. then if a breeder wants a specific name or prefix NOT to be changed they can pay lets say £200 at foal registration and then only a prefix/suffix can be added to a name or a name could be changed (depending on what part the breeder has "fixed") but the breeders prefix/suffix remains. the societies would not lose out on revenue as I would think the amount of horses being registered with a permanent name would outnumber those that would have a name change and the breeders would be able to name their offspring without it being changed.
		
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But that is basically what the Central Prefix Register was set up to do.  You have to register your prefix then add (at £20 each) each society you use (for me that's SHBGB, CHAPS, AHS and SPSS)  That should mean that any you register with them at least, can not be duplicated or changed without your permission.  Of course, any other society not in your list can use your prefix as part of a name but those linked in with the CPR will or should be unable to use it more than once.  

It's the prefix/suffix that breeders don't want to lose as that is their 'signature', their brand if you like.  As long as that has to be kept within the name most breeders wouldn't object too much about a name change providing it was with their permission although it's hard when the name means a lot to you.  Sadly, there are still some societies that aren't linked to CPR so their rules mean nothing to them and until recently, the disciplines accepted any name as long as it wasn't taken in which case it would get a number behind it but now they are only meant to accept the first name on the passport (as long as the original passport is used of course!).

It's a great shame the CPR doesn't just accept prefixes with all societies right from the start, even if it costs a bit more, it would save all that Alec's had to go through


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## Alec Swan (7 December 2015)

Well **gger me if it hasn't happened again!  Despite the assurances of the Anglo-European Stud book,  that they support Breeders,  another youngster GtS Master Flynn has had them acquiesce to the latest owner and accepted the side shifting of the horse's name.

I would *strongly* suggest that *ALL* breeders avoid the AES as a registration body.  What's the point of accepting a registered name for a horse and then allowing subsequent owners to circumnavigate the system,  apart from the revenue which is brought in,  of course!  

Alec.


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## Alec Swan (7 December 2015)

As a footnote to the post above and to avoid confusion;  The original horse in question was registered as GtS Listen To Me.

Alec.


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## Alec Swan (7 December 2015)

I've sent an e/mail to  Kees van den Oetelaar the owner(?) of AES and invited his response.  In the meantime,  I'd suggest that others consider their registration facilities,  with caution.

Alec.


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## popsdosh (7 December 2015)

Alec the issue always has been the AES will change names when ever it suits them and also as far as I know they do not register prefixes with the CPR .I became aware of this as I have a prefix that was with SHGB since year dot and when I registered a foal AES I asked if I needed to extend the prefix through them with the CPR . There answer was you can put whatever name you want as we do not regulate prefixes in any way. I had a horse that was registered SHGB with a prefix .I then found out she won the Hickstead speed derby under another name with an AES passport. I only found out when they had the cheek to approach me to give them the mares breeding as they were using her at stud . They were told to go forth and multiply themselves with a wry smile when I said maybe you shouldnt have destroyed her first passport. 
On another point I did have an issue a few years back with another breeder using my prefix with AES registrations I only knew when I searched the competition records for some of my horses. I did get redress through the disciplines when I brought to their attention they had horses competing with my registered prefix they apologised and made the competitors remove the prefix from their competition names. It was BD and BS needless to say BS took more persuading than BD  it must take a while to get over a culture of name changes!!!! People that have been about a while will understand that.
Certainly the BEF and the disciplines are very keen to encourage breeders for example under BEs new rules on prefixes they will only accept ones that are not protected on the CPR or the horse must show as being bred by the registered owner of the prefix. I know they check the CPR everytime they get a request for a prefix on a horse.
Just to sum up the AES are not part of the CPR and dont recognise it. I think they take the attitude that the passport is issued and owned by them so they can do what they like. Its a good job most societies look after their breeders better


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## popsdosh (7 December 2015)

Just a quick addition I never name my horses before they are sold as the purchaser invariable wishes to give their own name however they do sign a document to say that any name they choose has to have my prefix. The society is aware of this condition and will check it happens with any of my breeding. I took the attitude that with MCs the passporting and naming has been tightened up ie nobody could apply for a new passport on a horse that is already chipped.


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## Alec Swan (7 December 2015)

popsdosh said:



			&#8230;&#8230;... The society is aware of this condition and will check it happens with any of my breeding. &#8230;&#8230;.. .
		
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Yes,  I'm quite sure that you do have assurances,  but once the registration is completed,  the prefix and name can be sidelined for a mere twenty quid and the AES will be quite happy to ignore any previous assurances which they've given.

Alec.


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## popsdosh (8 December 2015)

Alec Swan said:



			Yes,  I'm quite sure that you do have assurances,  but once the registration is completed,  the prefix and name can be sidelined for a mere twenty quid and the AES will be quite happy to ignore any previous assurances which they've given.

Alec.
		
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I wont use AES ! only ever used them once which made me realise what little protection I had! Mine are registered elswhere


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## ihatework (8 December 2015)

I'm really shocked that breeding passports can be changed so easily. I know the generic ones for mongrels can be changed, but then I suspect the breeders care little if they have used such passports in the first place. 
Can I piggy back a question onto this thread?
Which are the better UK sporthorse society's?
I have a graded SHBGB mare but the stallion isn't on the list, so wouldn't get full papers. If I get a colt I was planning SHBGB as presumably basic register type papers won't matter so much, but if I get a filly are there better options out there?


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## popsdosh (8 December 2015)

If I am totally honest I dont think you will do any better than SHGB . Breeders elite are trying to up the game but it is run by the old management of AES when I had my issues and I believe still dont belong to WBFSH. I have just checked and indeed they have had their application turned down again as they are not deemed to be a democratic breeding organisation. This means any youngstock registered with Breeders elite cannot take part in any of the young horse championships which can be a problem when selling.
 SHBGB will look at breeding papers as long as the stallion is graded in their own recognised stud book .


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## ihatework (8 December 2015)

Thanks popsdosh, that's really helpful. I'll stick with SHGB. I'm hoping they might put the mare up a grading on performance too, better get onto that


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