# Denman UR in Aon Chase..



## 3BayGeldings (13 February 2010)

Unbelievable... Totally speechless! I don't think AP made any mistakes though, but i bet the bashing begins here ...


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## B_2_B (13 February 2010)

I can't believe it


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## 3BayGeldings (13 February 2010)

Tell me about it  
	
	
		
		
	


	




   Complete horse error and bad luck, if any other one did it then we wouldn't blink afterall. 
	
	
		
		
	


	




  Least horse is fine and he didn't fall which i was expecting after that takeoff


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## Gamebird (13 February 2010)

If it's any consolation most jockeys would have been off when he made the first mistake. The Denman shaped hole that they were repairing in the fence afterwards was a bit of a comedy moment....


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## TelH (13 February 2010)

I really hope no-one blames AP...totally not his fault.  I think Kauto will rest easy tonight though...gold cup looks like its his for the taking...


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## 3BayGeldings (13 February 2010)

Not necessarily... he's usually a much less predicatable jumper than Denman afterall.


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## TelH (13 February 2010)

Difference is Kauto makes a howler and carries on like it was meant to happen...Denman messes up and it takes him out.


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## The Virgin Dubble (13 February 2010)

[ QUOTE ]
Unbelievable... Totally speechless! I don't think AP made any mistakes though, but i bet the bashing begins here ... 

[/ QUOTE ]

I am not AP bashing, but, I was screaming at the TV for him to leave him alone.

The first circuit went brilliantly, but I had a sense of dread as soon as AP started pushing and niggling him on the second....


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## CracklinRosie (13 February 2010)

[ QUOTE ]
Tell me about it  
	
	
		
		
	


	




   Complete horse error and bad luck, if any other one did it then we wouldn't blink afterall. 
	
	
		
		
	


	




  Least horse is fine and he didn't fall which i was expecting after that takeoff  
	
	
		
		
	


	





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I'm sorry, but when was the last time you saw this horse hit a fence? 
	
	
		
		
	


	





This was predicted unfortunately.  
	
	
		
		
	


	





Hands Kauto the Gold Cup on a plate!


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## Clarew22 (13 February 2010)

I am not AP bashing either, but I agree with Dubs.  John Framcombe commented much the same about the second circuit.

Although have to say before the race I thought he didn't look quite as well as when he ran last time.


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## The Virgin Dubble (13 February 2010)

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Hands Kauto the Gold Cup on a plate!  
	
	
		
		
	


	





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Sadly I have to agree. 
	
	
		
		
	


	





It would take a miracle for Denman to win the GC now...

Even if they change back to Sam, the horse's confidence will be shot to pieces. I am gutted.


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## marmalade76 (13 February 2010)

First mistake, he got too close, second, took off too soon. Surely its the jockey's job to get the horse in the right place for take off?

Will AP get the ride in the Gold Cup now?


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## marmalade76 (13 February 2010)

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[ QUOTE ]


Hands Kauto the Gold Cup on a plate!  
	
	
		
		
	


	





[/ QUOTE ]
Sadly I have to agree. 
	
	
		
		
	


	





It would take a miracle for Denman to win the GC now...

Even if they change back to Sam, the horse's confidence will be shot to pieces. I am gutted. 
	
	
		
		
	


	





[/ QUOTE ]

Totally agree.


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## Clarew22 (13 February 2010)

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Will AP get the ride in the Gold Cup now? 

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Will the connections want to lose face by admitting they possibly have made a mistake?  It will be very interesting!


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## TelH (13 February 2010)

Has anyone else spotted the irony in the name of the horse AP is on now...probably how he feels right now


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## Shrek-Eventing-SW (13 February 2010)

I think AP was under pressure when the other horse came along side. He "maybe" put pressure on Denman to sort his act out, and we all know that Denman likes to do things his way. I did feel that maybe AP (although a great jockey) would just try and pressure Denman a bit too much to take a few strides out. I really think that Sam should still be riding him, as he was quiet, but managed to get a great tune out of him.


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## Clodagh (13 February 2010)

But they showed Sam falling at Aintree and it was a pair of identical mistakes?


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## Maesfen (13 February 2010)

[ QUOTE ]
I am not AP bashing either, but I agree with Dubs.  John Framcombe commented much the same about the second circuit.

Although have to say before the race I thought he didn't look quite as well as when he ran last time. 

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd go along with that, wasn't his normal bullish sort and didn't look to have the normal acceleration he's famous for.  AP is a great jockey but I don't think he's as subtle as Ruby as AP  likes to be in charge which is how Harry S said Denman doesn't like to be ridden.


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## 3BayGeldings (13 February 2010)

[ QUOTE ]
But they showed Sam falling at Aintree and it was a pair of identical mistakes? 

[/ QUOTE ]


Exactly.


I'll respect all of your opinions, but i'll stand by my view that AP rode him well and it was not rider's error. I doubt it'll have shot the horses confidence and i look forward to seeing him at the Gold Cup!


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## 3BayGeldings (13 February 2010)

And Ruby just had a big mistake on Master Minded and survived by the skin of his teeth. Wonder if he'll be doubted now *rolls eyes*


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## Lobelia_Overhill (13 February 2010)

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 I am gutted. 
	
	
		
		
	


	





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Me too ... I screamed when Tank hit the first fence (where he nearly fell) and had my hands over my eyes at the next when he took off! 
	
	
		
		
	


	







OMG Master Minded at the last (just seen on the telly!!)


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## ratsupadrainpipe (13 February 2010)

could it be, just possibly, as the horse went so well on the first circuit that he was running out of steam and that is why AP was niggling him? Tired horses make a lot more mistakes than fresh ones in general. and personally i dont think this horse will beat kauto again anyway.


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## wizoz (13 February 2010)

Right, well i'm sticking with what I said before and that is I NEVER wanted AP to ride Denman and I have my proof. 1) I was shouting at the telly for AP to just leave Denman to jump and stop pushing into fences, 2) Denman lost his confidence with the first blunder and I don't think AP helped him enough at the fence he fell off.

I think Denman is an out and out jumper, I have seen him settle into a perfect rhythm and jump out of his stride, today I felt he wasn't ridden how he is used to being ridden i.e quietly and that is why the mistakes were made.

NOT HAPPY 
	
	
		
		
	


	





I hope they rethink his jockey (Sam Thomas) AND give him another confidence boosting race before the Gold Cup, otherwise I think it's pointless him racing in it.

OK, I'm ready for the backlash, bring it on


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## The Virgin Dubble (13 February 2010)

[ QUOTE ]
And Ruby just had a big mistake on Master Minded and survived by the skin of his teeth. Wonder if he'll be doubted now *rolls eyes*  
	
	
		
		
	


	





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I am sensing frustration and a little anger in your posts JH....


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## TelH (13 February 2010)

Certainly agree re confidence boosting race but I would be inclined to let AP keep the ride for that race at least. But when all is said and done if Kauto is in the sort of form he showed at Kempton (or who knows could he get even better?)you're going to have to drive Denman round in the lorry for him to have a chance of getting home in front of Kauto.


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## 3BayGeldings (13 February 2010)

Oh is that coming across?!  
	
	
		
		
	


	








  I'm just a big fan of AP's and it is intensely frustrating when i hear people slagging him off on a whim (NOT people like you who actually comment on the riding/race and have a fair opinion). I want to go and bang some heads against some brick walls whilst screaming "14 time champion jockey"!  
	
	
		
		
	


	





I'm not going to talk about it anymore now though, or i will flip!


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## The Virgin Dubble (13 February 2010)

[ QUOTE ]
 I was shouting at the telly for AP to just leave Denman to jump and stop pushing into fences

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Ditto this 100%.

Sometimes he niggled, and sometimes he sat quiet. I think it was a bit confusing for Denman.
He is not the easiest horse, in that he likes to be in charge, and both Sam and Ruby always rode him quietly. 
I watched the race specifically to see how he rode him, and I was never comfortable, and I don't think Denman was comfortable either.

I just don't think AP and he are suited, and I would have said the same even if he had won by a mile.


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## 3BayGeldings (13 February 2010)

(fianl thing! Denamn doesn't run by himself, of course he has to push him along? He can't be expected to just sit there and not move a muscle 
	
	
		
		
	


	




  I thought AP's riding was restrained actually. But there you go ay  
	
	
		
		
	


	




 )


Ok now i'm definitely shutting up!


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## Clodagh (13 February 2010)

I agree with you, JH, but would say that John Francombe said Denman liked Ruby Walsh's style of sitting quiet. I don't like Denman so much anyway, he has none of Kautos charisma and class.


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## The Virgin Dubble (13 February 2010)

[ QUOTE ]
Oh is that coming across?!  
	
	
		
		
	


	








  I'm just a big fan of AP's and it is intensely frustrating when i hear people slagging him off on a whim (NOT people like you who actually comment on the riding/race and have a fair opinion). I want to go and bang some heads against some brick walls whilst screaming "14 time champion jockey"!  
	
	
		
		
	


	





I'm not going to talk about it anymore now though, or i will flip!  
	
	
		
		
	


	









[/ QUOTE ]

I love AP. 
	
	
		
		
	


	





As long as he steers clear of Denman..... 
	
	
		
		
	


	









Nah seriously, Denman is known for being bullish, and that's why the racing world was divided when it was announced that AP was to ride him. He just doesn't seem to respond to forceful riding, which is what AP is famed for.

I think Sam or Ruby should ride Denman in the GC, and AP should get the ride on kauto....


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## oldvic (13 February 2010)

[ QUOTE ]
First mistake, he got too close, second, took off too soon. Surely its the jockey's job to get the horse in the right place for take off? 


They are racing not show jumping. It is not about placing horses but about from point A to point B faster than the others. This requires economy of effort to have energy for the finish. Some horses find it easier to stand off, others use less energy getting close to keep momentum when not on a perfect spot. The jockey has a split second to weigh up the best option and the safe one isn't always the right one. Ground lost by playing safe has to be made up but too long a stride uses energy so it is not that simple. When the horse comes off the bridle the options are reduced as the stride is less adjustable.
In the Hennessy Denman was carrying Ruby more than he was AP today. In November he was still tanking turning into the straight and would have had these horses in trouble. Today he didn't look as bright in his face.
Also I am sure Ruby is not going to put his riding of the last on Master Minded as his finest hour. He, like AP, is brilliant but human!!


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## wizoz (13 February 2010)

[ QUOTE ]
And Ruby just had a big mistake on Master Minded and survived by the skin of his teeth. Wonder if he'll be doubted now *rolls eyes*  
	
	
		
		
	


	





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But my God, what a ride he gave him before that, took my breath away, absolutely superb 
	
	
		
		
	


	




 And give Ruby his due, he admitted it was his fault, top man.


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## wizoz (13 February 2010)

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
 I was shouting at the telly for AP to just leave Denman to jump and stop pushing into fences

[/ QUOTE ]
Ditto this 100%.

Sometimes he niggled, and sometimes he sat quiet. I think it was a bit confusing for Denman.
He is not the easiest horse, in that he likes to be in charge, and both Sam and Ruby always rode him quietly. 
I watched the race specifically to see how he rode him, and I was never comfortable, and I don't think Denman was comfortable either.

I just don't think AP and he are suited, and I would have said the same even if he had won by a mile. 

[/ QUOTE ]

Yep, totally agree with you Dubs.


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## ladyt25 (13 February 2010)

I came in from being out and heard the comments - went to CH4+1 and managed to catch the race. I have to say I had been a little apprehensive about AP riding himas I just think for some reason after races i have watched Denman in, Sam just seems to be suited to him - he never really seems to move and doesn't get at him and the horse just seems to accelerate away.

I always think APs riding is a bit more aggressive although i do think he did seem to be sitting quietly for the first half. I just wonder whether he started pushing before it was really necessary?

The first mistake i thought looked rather unfortunate actually as D did seem to slip a fair bit trying to save himself. I do think that knocked his confidence and he almost panic-jumped the next. Hindsight's a wonderful thing but i think (as JF said afterwards) maybe AP should have just taken a bit of a pull to try settle him again?

I know there will have been immense pressure on him and maybe it could work in AP and Denman's favour for the GC after knowing what can happen when a mistake occurs so next time he'll know maybe how to ride a bit differently?

I am just glad when all finish safely. I was dreading something to happen with the build up just to this race today. I don't think Denman's confidence will be knocked - he jumped the final fences really really well on his own after all!!!


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## The Virgin Dubble (13 February 2010)

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 I don't like Denman so much anyway, he has none of Kautos charisma and class. 
	
	
		
		
	


	





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Wash your mouth out!!


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## oldvic (13 February 2010)

Wizoz. a) So do you want AP to sit quiet or help the the horse? I'm sure he would love to know!
b) I am not sure why the ride on Master Minded was so superb. The horse jumped and travelled comfortably and had the (inferior) opposition in trouble turning out of the back. Ruby saw a very long stride at the 2nd last and was indecisive at the last. Not down in my book as ride of the week.
c) Denman didn't go a yard for Ruby at Kempton last year. It was his 1st run back after a hard race (Gold Cup that he won). He had a hard race in the Hennessy. Is this significant?
d) Sam gave him a very positive ride when he won the Gold Cup. He put the gun to his head a very long way from home and the horse answered every question so he can be given a positive ride.
e) If the horse isn't travelling you cannot just sit there and hope. AP was sitting quiet when he could but had to niggle at times to keep the momentum. To me it was ominous that he didn't pick up the bit until after the 2nd fence, just like at Kempton.


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## Clodagh (13 February 2010)

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
 I don't like Denman so much anyway, he has none of Kautos charisma and class. 
	
	
		
		
	


	





[/ QUOTE ]
Wash your mouth out!!  
	
	
		
		
	


	

















[/ QUOTE ]


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## wizoz (13 February 2010)

Ahhh Oldvic, i'm not gonna spar with you, you're obviously an AP fan so it won't matter what I say, but I will answer.

With regards to sitting quiet or helping out, you don't always have to push for a stride to the fence, he could have taken a pull? 

Masterminded travelled and jumped bl00y well in my opinion, I do agree that he saw a long one at the second last but the horse answered, and as for the last, Ruby has already put his hands up for that one!

The best race that I saw Denman run was the Hennessey with Sam, when they won it. Ruby had broken his collarbone, so that is why Sam had the ride. It was the most foot perfect round i've ever seen, he jumped EVERY fence out of his stride, never made a blunder and all Sam had to do was sit and guide.

Today, I think AP's niggling annoyed/confused Denman, he's used to the quiet ride, Sorry if you disagree.


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## Caledonia (13 February 2010)

I rest my case on everything I said on the previous thread.......... AP did exactly what I was worried he'd do, and Denman didn't cope........ 

But you know, I wish he hadn't, and that he's given him the perfect ride. I love Denman, and I hate seeing horses messed about like that.


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## FFF (13 February 2010)

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I don't like Denman so much anyway, he has none of Kautos charisma and class. 
	
	
		
		
	


	





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Sorry Dubs but I agree  
	
	
		
		
	


	




 I like Denman but nowhere near as much as KS


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## oldvic (13 February 2010)

Yes I am an AP fan. I am also an admirer of Sam and Ruby. They are all super riders who use their heads and think about what they have done and learn from it. I agree that Denman was extraordinary that year but in those days he tended to be very strong and there was no option but to hang on and go with him. Maybe nowadays he sometimes saves himself a little particularly when he is not 100% fit.
Yes Master Minded travelled and jumped beautifully but that is normal, not jockey inspired. My point about the long one at the 2nd last was that AP was critisized for going for a forward stride at the cross fence so why is that worse than going for a really long one 2 out when you already have the race won?
Hindsight is a wonderful thing and I dare say AP might have taken a pull if he could turn back the clock but when you have ground to make up and the other horse is going better it is probably the 2nd choice. Winning is not always about taking the less risky option.


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## ExRacers (13 February 2010)

QR Totally agree with Wizoz &amp; Dubs. AP rode him exactly as I feared he would. I'm also gutted - I just hope Denman can bounce back for the Gold Cup.

However there will be one person smiling tonight - my boss, the owner of Tricky Trickster....!! 
	
	
		
		
	


	








 I'll certainly be backing him e/w for the GC!


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## The Virgin Dubble (13 February 2010)

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I don't like Denman so much anyway, he has none of Kautos charisma and class. 
	
	
		
		
	


	





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Sorry Dubs but I agree  
	
	
		
		
	


	




 I like Denman but nowhere near as much as KS  
	
	
		
		
	


	





[/ QUOTE ]


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## FFF (13 February 2010)

[ QUOTE ]

However there will be one person smiling tonight - my boss, the owner of Tricky Trickster....!! 
	
	
		
		
	


	








 I'll certainly be backing him e/w for the GC! 

[/ QUOTE ]

Will he be going for the GC and GN then?


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## ExRacers (13 February 2010)

Apparently so! Must admit I was quite surprised but that's the plan.


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## Clodagh (13 February 2010)

I don't think Denman looked the best in his coat today. In his Telegraph pic its very dull, that growing out clip look that chestnuts can get so badly, maybe he wasn't 100% at the top of his game to start with, but on paper he should still have won easily, even handicapped by having someone as hopeless as AP on board 
	
	
		
		
	


	












...(that was for JH).


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## The Virgin Dubble (13 February 2010)

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think Denman looked the best in his coat today. In his Telegraph pic its very dull, that growing out clip look that chestnuts can get so badly, maybe he wasn't 100% at the top of his game to start with, but on paper he should still have won easily, *even handicapped by having someone as hopeless as AP on board*













...(that was for JH). 

[/ QUOTE ]
You are VERY brave! 
	
	
		
		
	


	









You are also very funny!


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## starr_g (13 February 2010)

I expected Denman to win today as the competition really wasn't that good but I think he started to look tired after the first circuit and wonder if that was down to a hard race in the Hennessey, where he really didn't go well on the first circuit. Harry Findlay has the same opinion re. Hennessey - read the interview in today's Guardian.The comparison with Sam Thomas falling with him at Aintree shown on C4 was interesting.


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## ladyt25 (13 February 2010)

I don't know enough about any of the jockeys to be a 'fan' of any as such I guess you just judge it on what you've seen and what results have come of certain people's riding.

I found it interesting that Francome et al seemed to make similar comments as posters here about APs riding style maybe not being suited to a horse like Denman.

I hope for the horse's sake they they make the right decision for the GC i would hate to see anyone/any horse end up injured. That goes for any race but I think particularly with these two great horses things run smoothly.

I am still in 'camp Denman' though, as good a horse Kauto is there's just something about Denman. I don't know what it is. ooh, can see some t-shirt printing going on here "Team Denman!" here i come! Lol


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## The Virgin Dubble (13 February 2010)

[ QUOTE ]
 ooh, can see some t-shirt printing going on here "Team Denman!" here i come! Lol 

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh my god, I would so love one! 
	
	
		
		
	


	





*trots off to google....*


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## 3BayGeldings (13 February 2010)

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I don't think Denman looked the best in his coat today. In his Telegraph pic its very dull, that growing out clip look that chestnuts can get so badly, maybe he wasn't 100% at the top of his game to start with, but on paper he should still have won easily, *even handicapped by having someone as hopeless as AP on board*













...(that was for JH). 

[/ QUOTE ]
You are VERY brave! 
	
	
		
		
	


	









You are also very funny! 
	
	
		
		
	


	









[/ QUOTE ]


*looks unamused*


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## ladyt25 (13 February 2010)

I am soo gonna get myself one made!!


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## minesadouble (13 February 2010)

OK am gonna have to have my say too! Am a big Denman/AP and Ruby fan!! But this is how I see it;-

1. People who saw the horse in the paddock have been quoted as saying he looked 'burly' and not as hard fit ashe should have done.

2. Those crying for the reinstatement of Sam Thomas - was the blunder today not virtually identical to that at Aintree when he was under ST?

3. Yes Ruby and Master Minded made it look easy apart from one shocking blunder BUT it is easy to look an outstanding jock on a talented horse  at the top of his game - if a horse isn't quite right/on the ball on aparticular day that same combination can look like muppets! IF Denman was under par my heart bleeds for McCoy - what s*** luck, because a bad run was always going to have the anti AP club rubbing their hands with glee.

4. Denman should have been out of sight of those horses today - does no-one else think he just didn't seem to be able to seamlessly move up a gear the way he normally does?

5. Finally, Ruby missed on Master Minded, If McCoy missed on Denman (and I think he would have admitted if he felt the mistake was his as he is his own harshest critic) - is it unacceptable for a pro jockey to make a mistake?? Those of us on this forum who jump/have jumped how many times have you missed your jerk showjumping? How long do you think the stride of a racehorse doing 30+mph compared to your bouncy little SJ stride - three possibly 4 or more times as long? I have made quite a few mistakes in my time - let him without sin cast the first stone etc etc.....

Anyway that's all that springs to mind for now.

Am not convinced that the mistake was down to the ride AP gave not suiting Denman. My gut instinct was that Denman just wasn't right today, and the worry is that if he was only slightly below par he still should have trounced the opposition!
Hopefully he is sound after that near-miss and they can rectify any problems before Cheltenham!


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## Haniki (13 February 2010)

Lots of Denman merchandise here:
http://www.cheltenhamcollection.co.uk/Category/50-denman-kauto-star.aspx


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## ladyt25 (13 February 2010)

Ooh I like! Like the bracelet but still want the team denman bit - hmm, can use those colours anyway........!


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## Fiona (13 February 2010)

I agree with minesadouble.  Denman was 20 lbs better than his opponents today, he shouldn't have been under pressure going to the 4th last, he should have been 5 lengths clear at that stage.  The fact that he couldn't shake off Niche Market says (to me anyway) that he was struggling.

AP rode him fine, the first circuit was pretty much textbook...

If Denman had blundered at the last fence while clear of the field (like Ruby and MasterMinded) he would have won as well I dare say, and the last fence blunder would have been forgotten.

Fiona


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## FinnishLapphund (13 February 2010)

Yippee! I could buy my own Kauto Star to ride on!  


But he seems slightly skinny,  
	
	
		
		
	


	




 I doubt he'll be fit enough for me to race him in the Gold Cup ***sulk***.   
	
	
		
		
	


	


















 ***whispers*** Personally I prefer Kauto Star, 
	
	
		
		
	


	




 if nothing else because I simply think he looks cuter than Denman...


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## Bearskin (14 February 2010)

A P missed and the horse was not used to it.  If you watch the race again, you will see that he drops the contact while pushing for a long one (at the fence before the fall).  He did not need to push as the horse was on a good one. The horse then lost confidence and made a whopper of a mistake at the next. That said, AP is a genius and I suspect he will not make the same mistake twice.  I would not factor him out of the GC just yet...


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## lindsayH (14 February 2010)

Can any of you kind people tell me if this race is available to view online anywhere? I missed it  
	
	
		
		
	


	




Thank you!


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## KarynK (14 February 2010)

[ QUOTE ]
 I want to go and bang some heads against some brick walls whilst screaming "14 time champion jockey"!  
	
	
		
		
	


	






[/ QUOTE ]

And right there is your answer, AP has to be determined and tenacious to achieve that total and you see him riding the lazy old donkey in the seller tailed off a mile by the first to a convincing win at then end, because the horse has not got a lot between it's ears and he is still hungry for the wins.  Yes he is successful on quirky talented horses but a lot of them he has ridden since novices and helped in their education. 

The likes of Denman however have a lot between their ears and like a lot of athletes at the very top of their game, like to do things his own way and when they are dictated to it can throw them off track.  Not all Jockeys however brilliant will get on with all horses and the clash is more likely with talented horses like this.

I've lost count of the talented horses Richard Dunwoody put on the ground, Dessie, Florida Pearl etc, simply through dictating to them, yet on lesser animals who needed that style he was effective.

It remains to be seen if this is a clash of personalities/styles but Denman mine I would err on the side of caution with the gold cup looming swallow my pride and change back.


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## Caledonia (14 February 2010)

Surely if the horse is below par, it is up to the jockey to take that into account and NOT ride for a miracle stride on him? AP tried to ride a tiring horse for two long shots, neither came off and the horse made mistakes. 
As far as jumping on the first circuit goes, there is never going to be a problem when Denman is full of running. Go back and look at the middle of the Hennessy when he was jumping out of Ruby's hands, and then the end of the Hennessy, when he was not on a perfect shot (3rd last &amp; 2nd last), Ruby let him pop. 
Denman's greatest strength is his ability to maintain a superior cruising speed, under even a heavy weight, or at the end of a race, that leaves his rivals out on their feet. He doesn't get faster, the rest can't live with him.
However, that cruising speed also governs how the horse jumps. If he's travelling still full of running, them he will take the jockey to a long stride, as he did at the cross fence. The horse's decision, not the jockey's.
If however, the horse is even *slightly* tiring, he's already pretty much at his optimum; I don't believe the horse has speed gears at the end of his races, to me he's more like Carvills Hill was, so to push for more on a horse that is already giving everything, is asking for trouble. 

I've watched Denman in every race he's had, I think he's awesome. But his way of running and jumping is always going to be his downfall at the end of a race if (and it's a big if) another horse can live with him, and that horse also has speed.
I think AP will always push for that last bit out of a horse, that's why he has won so many races. That is not a criticism, but fact. However, doing it on a horse that has no more to give is where his rides look ugly and go wrong. Like yesterday.
It makes no odds if what happened to Denman was whether he was tired because of not being right, or tiring as he can do, either way the jockey on top should know what he's sitting on and ride accordingly.


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## minesadouble (14 February 2010)

Just to add a little more to the debate Brough Scott in today's Sunday Times quotes Ruby as saying after the Hennessy of Denman "he needs blinkers" - so maybe Denman doesn't have the heart for the job anymore???


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## oldvic (14 February 2010)

AP DID let him pop 4 out and the horse made a mistake. He was looking to pop 3 out and the horse picked up a stride early just like he did with Sam. Niche Market was coming back at Denman turning in, that is why AP was looking back so much as he knew he hadn't got enough horse under him to kick on and in theory he should have been cruising. The horse was emptying on him but it didn't look obvious as he wasn't pushing Denman's ears off. Denman has run badly for Ruby in the past too.


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## Caledonia (14 February 2010)

I saw it totally differently........... AP pushed for a long one 4 out and the horse chipped in a short one, then AP pushed for a long one 3 out, Denman tried to answer the call and the horse ended up walking through the fence and AP hit the deck. 

I'm just so glad the horse is OK. 

I guess those of you that don't see AP can do any wrong will view it differently to those of us that watch him as we see it.

ETA, sorry, didn't mean that last bit to sounds so harsh........


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## oldvic (14 February 2010)

Everyone is entitled to their opinion but it is interesting that the likes of Brough Scott who watched the race from the doctor's car so from very close up was anxious that the horse wasn't going as well as he should after the cross fence. 
To quote him talking about the fact that the Nicholls team have 5 weeks to get him right "The one thing they won't do is blame the jockey. That is for Dumbos.". They have just been talking about it on ATR and Jim McGrath said similar. In fact all the racing press that I have read agree that Denman was having an off day for what ever reason and it was not jockey error.
I have enough respect for AP's ability not to damn him for not being perfect 100% of the time just as I would not damn Ruby for his error yesterday. Horses are not machines and to blame the jockey on this occasion is incorrect from what I saw - and incidentally I was very disappointed that Sam was jocked off as I felt that was wrong. In hindsight I am glad he was as everyone would have been unfairly baying for his blood and he has had more than enough of that. I hope people don't try to destroy AP in the same way. If you heard AP's post race summing up of a horse you would realise that he has great feel and affinity for a horse. His job is to take risks and life will tell you that not all risks work. That doesn't mean we should not try - with no risk life would be very dull!!


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## Caledonia (14 February 2010)

Who is damning AP? I have said he's a great jockey throughout.

I'm saying it like it is, the same way it was Ruby's error on Master Minded.
If you have stars in your eyes where AP's concerned, that is your judgement clouded, not mine. 

As far as risk taking goes, if you think that extends to being OK to f**king up enough to put a horse on the floor (or nearly as in this case), then we'll never be on the same wavelength.


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## oldvic (14 February 2010)

First, there is no need to be rude. As I tried to explain I am not starry eyed about AP and if my judgement is clouded then so is that of the racing's great and good - Mick Fitz has just been on too saying it exactly as I saw it and explaining what was happening and that it was a mishap. I think Mick has forgotten more about race-riding than you or I will ever know. 
Second, the experts don't consider he f**ked up any more than I do and BS, JM and MF among others are sensible people who say things as they see them. Opinions worth respecting I think. 
No horseman likes seeing horses fall but it happens. Sometimes someone is to blame, sometimes not but that doesn't mean that we should never push the boundaries. Everybody (human and equine) learns by trial and error. Sadly we don't learn so much when things go right. We just have to hope that we learn when things go wrong and that no harm is done in the process. Being defensive can be as damaging as being positive. You don't know which until you try.


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## Bustermartin (14 February 2010)

I was worried about AP riding Denman, but I have to say that I think that round the first circuit all looked really well.  He might not have got as far in front as we were all expecting, but, by and large, he did jump well.  

However, and I will quote BS in the Times too - ' McCoys three push crescendo into a jump is a style different from the quieter, more wrapped round Ruby Walsh system' and in my eyes this is what perhaps didn't work so well when the horse was really tiring towards the end of the race.  Its funny how we all see it so differently, but I reckon he did push for his 'usual' long one, and the horse didn't have the petrol to respond.

We will never know if it would have been different with either RW or ST in the plate, perhaps not..   However, this is my opinion, I am no race rider myself, but I am a horsewoman, and this is how I read the race.


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## Caledonia (14 February 2010)

Oldvic, I listened to Mick Fitz as well......... he said that AP went long and the horse didn't pick up...... which is precisely what I am saying.........

I'm arguing the point as I see it, I'm not spuriously claiming that everyone agrees with me when they don't. As far as I'm concerned that's a losing argument. 

I said in the previous thread what I thought would happen with AP on Denman, and it did. So I believe I read it right. 

You don't. 

I'll agree to disagree with you.


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## Latiano (14 February 2010)

Can somebody post a link to the race purrrrleease


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## oldvic (14 February 2010)

What Mick actually said was that AP asked Denman to lengthen towards 4 out and when he felt there was no response he sat which is what jockeys do. He then asked him to close the gap and again when there was no response he sat and Denman took off too far away.

Bustermartin - it is easy to make a quote fit what we think if we only quote part of a sentence so I will complete it for you.
"True,McCoy's three-push crescendo into a jump is style different from the quieter, more wrapped around Ruby Walsh system, but at fence after fence horse and rider flowed in and over in solid unison. As they swept off towards the second circuit the pair seemed a perfect match.". This puts a different slant on the quote, particularly when you read in the previous paragraph "Some armchair riders will probably start questioning McCoy's suitability to Denman's saddle but such suggestions are rubbish.". Similar to what he said in the Racing Post.
He also goes on to say that Ruby said the horse needed blinkers after the Hennessy. An interesting thought. Fatigue shouldn't have been a factor against inferior opposition and Paul Nicholls said he didn't blow much.
XDebsX You can see the race on the Racing Post website but you have to pay.


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## Caledonia (14 February 2010)

[ QUOTE ]
What Mick actually said was that AP asked Denman to lengthen towards 4 out and when he felt there was no response he sat which is what jockeys do. He then asked him to close the gap and again when there was no response he sat and Denman took off too far away.


[/ QUOTE ]

*slaps head in frustration* 

Yes, he stopped pushing when he thought he was about to pick up at the 4th fence out, except Denman chipped a stride in. He *created* the problem by pushing, if he'd let him come to the fence the stride was there........
Then 3 out, he did the same, except Denman tried to pick up for him instead of chipping in, couldn't make it from where he was asked, and walked through it. 
He was ONLY sat still when the horse either left the ground to jump, or he thought he was about to leave the ground to jump. And to be fair, even the most inept of jockeys don't push in those circumstances.

If you know about racing, you'll know very well that it's not policy to criticise AP publicly. He didn't even get a whisper of criticism for his tantrum performance when Valiramix fell. 

There's no point whatsoever you using what the pundits say.......... they won't tell it like it is, except perhaps Chapman, and he's had to stop because he gets into grief. 

I know what I saw, and all the stars in your eyes won't change my view. 

So, as I said before, I'll agree to disagree.


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## The Virgin Dubble (14 February 2010)

[ QUOTE ]
There's no point whatsoever you using what the pundits say.......... they won't tell it like it is, except perhaps Chapman, and he's had to stop because he gets into grief. 



[/ QUOTE ]
Immediately after the race John Francome actually had the balls to say that AP wasn't the right jockey for Denman.

IMHO, people are taking this a bit too personally. 
	
	
		
		
	


	





I think AP is an amazing jockey - a legend in our life time. 
	
	
		
		
	


	





But, as horse riders, we all know that even the most capable rider can come across a horse they simply can't get a tune out of.
Denman appears to be one of those horses...

He never really looked happy or fluent in the race, and even a complete novice could see that AP tried pushing him into some jumps, and sat quietly at others. No consistancy, and almost blind panic at the end, when he kept looking round and pushing on.

Again imho, Denman is a cruiser and a stayer, and wins his races by outlasting his tiring opponents. Like an automatic Range Rover, you simply put him into drive, and steer.
He is a different kettle of fish to the usual multi geared, sports car type, racehorses.

I am not saying AP is a bad jockey. I just thing he is the wrong one for Denman...


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## 3BayGeldings (14 February 2010)

Honestly Dubs i think we were watching a different race!! I thought he was happy and fluent right up until the mistake, and i don't think AP gave him mixed signals at all (not just saying that cos its AP, i geniunely believe that). And Paul Nicholl's himself has described how lazy Denman is - you have to keep going at him to keep him running, you can't just sit there and steer... He's also heavy in the hand so a tricky ride. And i think you're slightly putting words in Francomes's mouth!!  
	
	
		
		
	


	




  I can't remember exactly what he said about it (i remember him commenting on whether AP suited Denman after the race) but he certainly didn't say "AP wasn't the right jockey for Denman".


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## The Virgin Dubble (14 February 2010)

[ QUOTE ]
Honestly Dubs i think we were watching a different race!! I thought he was happy and fluent right up until the mistake, and i don't think AP gave him mixed signals at all (not just saying that cos its AP, i geniunely believe that). And Paul Nicholl's himself has described how lazy Denman is - you have to keep going at him to keep him running, you can't just sit there and steer... He's also heavy in the hand so a tricky ride. And i think you're slightly putting words in Francomes's mouth!!  
	
	
		
		
	


	




  I can't remember exactly what he said about it (i remember him commenting on whether AP suited Denman after the race) but he certainly didn't say "AP wasn't the right jockey for Denman". 

[/ QUOTE ]

I have watched Denman in every race he has ever run in, apart from Aintree when he fell. I recorded that, but haven't the heart to watch it... 
	
	
		
		
	


	








I just wasn't happy with the way he was going from the off. My OH's and daughters perforated eardrums will bear testament to that.... 
	
	
		
		
	


	








Seriously, if you watch the race over and over, you will see the mixed signals...

Sorry, you are correct; JF didn't come right out and say that AP wasn't suited to Denman, but he did allude to that, by comparing riding styles between AP, and Sam and Ruby. 

At the end of the day, it's all about opinions and nothing we say will make any difference.
AP will be riding Denman in the Gold Cup. I hope to god he practises on him first! 
	
	
		
		
	


	













Nice to have a good old debate about it isn't it?


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## 3BayGeldings (14 February 2010)

I was just thinking that - usually if you disagree with someone on this website you get abuse and all sorts  
	
	
		
		
	


	




  Nice to actually discuss and debate things without having to scrap about it  *wipes brow*  And we're in the same camp really - Team Denman!!


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## starr_g (14 February 2010)

Perhaps you should watch the Aintree race that Denman fell in. It was replayed on C4 on Saturday and the jumping pattern was similar to the Aon fall, and with a jockey who had ridden the horse before.


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## The Virgin Dubble (14 February 2010)

[ QUOTE ]
Perhaps you should watch the Aintree race that Denman fell in. It was replayed on C4 on Saturday and the jumping pattern was similar to the Aon fall, and with a jockey who had ridden the horse before. 

[/ QUOTE ]
I can't! 
	
	
		
		
	


	




 I am too much of a wuss! 
	
	
		
		
	


	









Yes I had heard that actually, and will try and get round to watching it this week, and will let you know my expert opinion afterwards...


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## The Virgin Dubble (14 February 2010)

[ QUOTE ]
I was just thinking that - usually if you disagree with someone on this website you get abuse and all sorts  
	
	
		
		
	


	




  Nice to actually discuss and debate things without having to scrap about it  *wipes brow*  And we're in the same camp really - Team Denman!!  
	
	
		
		
	


	





[/ QUOTE ]

Abuse?? On here?? 
	
	
		
		
	


	









The thing is, all we can give, are our opinions. 
	
	
		
		
	


	





Love or loathe AP, and the Denman/AP connection, we can disagree til the cows come home, but it won't change anything, so it's pointless falling out over it. 

Nothing is set in stone, and you are correct. We are on the same team!  
	
	
		
		
	


	





I am still scouring google for 'Team Denman' merchandise, but no joy....


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## jhoward (14 February 2010)

here you go dubs... not quite team though.. 

http://shop.jockeyclubracing.co.uk/denman-gold-cup-08-t-shirt-143-p.asp


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## Amymay (15 February 2010)

[ QUOTE ]
First mistake, he got too close, second, took off too soon. Surely its the jockey's job to get the horse in the right place for take off?

Will AP get the ride in the Gold Cup now? 

[/ QUOTE ]

Let's hope connections see sense and put his regular jockey back on.

Farce.


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## The Virgin Dubble (15 February 2010)

[ QUOTE ]
here you go dubs... not quite team though.. 

http://shop.jockeyclubracing.co.uk/denman-gold-cup-08-t-shirt-143-p.asp 

[/ QUOTE ]

Aww, thanks! 
	
	
		
		
	


	





I want one with 'Team Denman' though... 
	
	
		
		
	


	





You would think that some bright spark would have realised that they could make a few pennies from producing 'Team Denman' and 'Team Kauto' merchandise, in the run up to the GC. Where are all the entrepreneurs nowadays??


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## The Virgin Dubble (15 February 2010)

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
First mistake, he got too close, second, took off too soon. Surely its the jockey's job to get the horse in the right place for take off?

Will AP get the ride in the Gold Cup now? 

[/ QUOTE ]

Let's hope connections see sense and put his regular jockey back on.

Farce. 

[/ QUOTE ]

Connections have confirmed that AP still has the ride for the GC...


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## Amymay (15 February 2010)

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
First mistake, he got too close, second, took off too soon. Surely its the jockey's job to get the horse in the right place for take off?

Will AP get the ride in the Gold Cup now? 

[/ QUOTE ]

Let's hope connections see sense and put his regular jockey back on.

Farce. 

[/ QUOTE ]

Connections have confirmed that AP still has the ride for the GC... 

[/ QUOTE ]

Really, really sorry to read this.  And feel the connections are letting the horse down very badly.  It will be the end of a stunning career.


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## kerilli (15 February 2010)

finally watched it just now online, i'm no expert but i couldn't see anything wrong at all until the first blunder, not sure how anyone can criticise AP's riding up to that point? yes, he got a bit close to that one but I think if he hadn't stumbled/knucked over in front a bit on landing it wouldn't have looked as bad, didn't look as if he hit the fence hard. the Denman-shaped hole in the next one was a bit different... horse a bit underconfident after blunder + not great spot again? (i couldn't tell from camera angle and other horse in the way though)


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## jhoward (15 February 2010)

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
here you go dubs... not quite team though.. 

http://shop.jockeyclubracing.co.uk/denman-gold-cup-08-t-shirt-143-p.asp 

[/ QUOTE ]

Aww, thanks! 
	
	
		
		
	


	





I want one with 'Team Denman' though... 
	
	
		
		
	


	





You would think that some bright spark would have realised that they could make a few pennies from producing 'Team Denman' and 'Team Kauto' merchandise, in the run up to the GC. Where are all the entrepreneurs nowadays?? 
	
	
		
		
	


	





[/ QUOTE ]

*runs off with idea and to get t hirts printed up*


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## The Virgin Dubble (15 February 2010)

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
here you go dubs... not quite team though.. 

http://shop.jockeyclubracing.co.uk/denman-gold-cup-08-t-shirt-143-p.asp 

[/ QUOTE ]

Aww, thanks! 
	
	
		
		
	


	





I want one with 'Team Denman' though... 
	
	
		
		
	


	





You would think that some bright spark would have realised that they could make a few pennies from producing 'Team Denman' and 'Team Kauto' merchandise, in the run up to the GC. Where are all the entrepreneurs nowadays?? 
	
	
		
		
	


	





[/ QUOTE ]

*runs off with idea and to get t hirts printed up* 

[/ QUOTE ]
LOL! 
	
	
		
		
	


	




 I will be your first customer!


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## ladyt25 (15 February 2010)

I went on to a t-shirt design place online on friday night and was playing around with some designs for Team Denman. You can pick the t-shirt/top style, colour and do your own text and design. It was pretty simple. Think they were about £20.

http://www.streetshirts.co.uk/creation.aspx


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## Mithras (15 February 2010)

I'm a huge fan of Ruby Walsh.  He seems to ride more big race winners than AP, who rides more total winners but spends a lot of time pushing moderate horses to win.  Different horses respond to different styles, good horses generally know they are good and don't like their style being altered.  Hopefully AP can rise to the challenge and adjust his style to get the best results out of Denman in the Gold Cup but I have to say I think the chance of him forgetting this and pushing him into the final fences in the heat of the moment and dropping the contact and falling are quite high.

Why is Sam not riding in the Gold Cup?


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## The Virgin Dubble (15 February 2010)

[ QUOTE ]


Why is Sam not riding in the Gold Cup? 

[/ QUOTE ]
A combination of things according to Harry Findlay.
Sam has left Ditcheat, so is no longer 'employed' by Paul Nicholls, though that is a poor excuse imho, as AP isn't 'employed' by PN either...

The other reason is that Harry Findlay is reported to have said something along the lines of it's fitting that the two best horses in the GC, will have the two best jockeys....


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## The Virgin Dubble (15 February 2010)

[ QUOTE ]
I went on to a t-shirt design place online on friday night and was playing around with some designs for Team Denman. You can pick the t-shirt/top style, colour and do your own text and design. It was pretty simple. Think they were about £20.

http://www.streetshirts.co.uk/creation.aspx 

[/ QUOTE ]


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## Caledonia (15 February 2010)

Oh dear............
	
	
		
		
	


	





AP on Denman ride.


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## Amymay (15 February 2010)

[ QUOTE ]
Oh dear............
	
	
		
		
	


	





AP on Denman ride. 

[/ QUOTE ]

There we are then


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## marmalade76 (15 February 2010)

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
First mistake, he got too close, second, took off too soon. Surely its the jockey's job to get the horse in the right place for take off?

Will AP get the ride in the Gold Cup now? 

[/ QUOTE ]

Let's hope connections see sense and put his regular jockey back on.

Farce. 

[/ QUOTE ]

Connections have confirmed that AP still has the ride for the GC... 

[/ QUOTE ]

Really, really sorry to read this.  And feel the connections are letting the horse down very badly.  It will be the end of a stunning career. 
	
	
		
		
	


	





[/ QUOTE ]

Agree, I love Denman and would love for him to win another GC, but I feel he has no chance now.

Agree with HH, AP has had less high class winners, not managed to win the GN and I can't remember him winning the GC, can anyone put me right on that?


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## Caledonia (15 February 2010)

AP won the GC on Mr Mulligan......... Richard Johnson was jocked off for him.


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## The Virgin Dubble (15 February 2010)

1997 on Mr Mulligan.

He has had very mixed fortunes at Cheltenham...


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## Scoopy (15 February 2010)

Is there a link anywhere to watch the race ?


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## Baggybreeches (15 February 2010)

I would really like to see Harry Skelton ride Denman, even in the GC!!
Now there's a big gamble, but think about the ride Sam had on him when he was at that stage, he knows the horse, he rides quiet, and it would take a lot of pressure off everyone.
I don't think this weekend will have done any lasting damage to Denman's confidence, but dare I say perhaps AP is losing his 'sharpness/feel'? That isn't a criticism of the guy, just the fact that he has been at the top of his game for so long, and everyone gets older!


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## The Virgin Dubble (15 February 2010)

[ QUOTE ]
Is there a link anywhere to watch the race ? 

[/ QUOTE ]
There is some footage on Youtube I believe, but C4 had a lot more close-up footage of Denman than any other I have seen. I don't know if it will be on their website? May be worth a try.


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## Amymay (15 February 2010)

I feel a Facebook campaign coming on.............


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## Scoopy (15 February 2010)

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Is there a link anywhere to watch the race ? 

[/ QUOTE ]
There is some footage on Youtube I believe, but C4 had a lot more close-up footage of Denman than any other I have seen. I don't know if it will be on their website? May be worth a try. 
	
	
		
		
	


	





[/ QUOTE ]

Thank you !


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## kerilli (15 February 2010)

i googled and eventually found via another forum that i could watch it on racinguk, had to sign in but free.


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## wizoz (15 February 2010)

[ QUOTE ]
I feel a Facebook campaign coming on............. 

[/ QUOTE ]

I've already started one! 
	
	
		
		
	


	





Don't know how to post a link to the group 
	
	
		
		
	


	




 But it says, bring back Sam Thomas to ride Denman for the Cheltenham Gold Cup.

I have the grand total of.....2 in my group and 1 of those is me


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## FFF (15 February 2010)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7PjOgVwco_E is the link


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## The Virgin Dubble (15 February 2010)

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I feel a Facebook campaign coming on............. 

[/ QUOTE ]

I've already started one! 
	
	
		
		
	


	





Don't know how to post a link to the group 
	
	
		
		
	


	




 But it says, bring back Sam Thomas to ride Denman for the Cheltenham Gold Cup.

I have the grand total of.....2 in my group and 1 of those is me 
	
	
		
		
	


	





[/ QUOTE ]

I can't find it. 
	
	
		
		
	


	





Go to the page, then c+p the link in the address bar. 
	
	
		
		
	


	




Then I can join!


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## wizoz (15 February 2010)

http://www.facebook.com/?ref=home#!/group.php?gid=320486060232

Hope this works


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## Shrek-Eventing-SW (15 February 2010)

Yay, thank you for the link


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## The Virgin Dubble (15 February 2010)

[ QUOTE ]
http://www.facebook.com/?ref=home#!/group.php?gid=320486060232

Hope this works 
	
	
		
		
	


	





[/ QUOTE ]

Joined!


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## minesadouble (15 February 2010)

[ QUOTE ]


[/ QUOTE ] " _Let's hope connections see sense and put his regular jockey back on."

In his racing career Denman has been ridden 3 times by Christian Williams, 6 times by Sam Thomas, 9 times by Ruby and once by AP. Therefore you can hardly call ST his 'regular' jockey. As far as I am aware he has fallen only once in his career and his jock that day was ST! Anyone can get it wrong.

I assume PN is happy for AP to take the ride and would guess he knows a little more about the horse than us armchair critics._


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## oldvic (15 February 2010)

Paul Nicholls has said that he needs to get Denman sharper both physically and mentally like he was in the Hennessy and that AP did nothing wrong. That AP has watched the video many times shows that he has analysed the race and he was prepared to critisize himself. At the end of the day s**t happens and it did. It doesn't mean that the blame culture has to kick in.


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## Rouletterose (16 February 2010)

Having watched the race quite a few times now I think Denman didn't like being 'pushed' into his fences, Mcoy kept constantly looking back, unbalancing the horse, for me the horse just didn't 'click' with the jockey, it wasn't a good pairing.


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## wizoz (16 February 2010)

How cool, Jonty Evans has joined my group


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## LEC (16 February 2010)

I have seen it and have no problem with AP. I have to say that I think this is a bit OTT and I do not rate Sam Thomas. There are better jockeys coming through. Sam Thomas is just fortunate to be working for the best stables. Look at Joe Tizzard he had big winners but is nowhere now without PN backing. 

Just some stats AP rides 75% more winners than RW but is pretty much level pegging on prize money. Jonjo has very medicore horses and that is his main employer. Name the last time you saw AP on a superb chaser? It has not happened for a long time not APs fault but because he rides a lot of crap and turns them into winners.

Denman was miles off his best so how you can blame the jockey? Why are you not having more of a go at the trainer? Please get some common sense into this and look at the facts and not just use blind ignorance.


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## hilly (16 February 2010)

QR - First thought on hearing AP had the ride last Saturday  on my current favourite steeplechaser -  'Alpha Male .. meet .. Alpha Male' and kept fingers firmly crossed. 

No disrepect to McCoy, or any professional jockey. You only have to look at their gaunt faces to see what a tough lifestyle it is or wince when they hit the ground, plus these pros do what 99.9% of riders couldn't - that's a given. 

Even as a young horse, the first-hand reports were you asked, not told, Denman what to do and he can be quirky. Ruby suggested blinkers after their last race and Denman needed Dan Skelton and his hunting whip at the start last Saturday. 

Taking all that into account, I  still think Ruby is the best horseman for The Tank. Plus, when it comes to Cheltenham there is none luckier than him.

Moot points.  
	
	
		
		
	


	




 It looks like the Alpha Male partnership is set in stone for the Gold Cup. I shall watch the race from behind the sofa ..


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## Caledonia (17 February 2010)

[ QUOTE ]


Denman was miles off his best so how you can blame the jockey? 

[/ QUOTE ]

Not according to PN, or compared to his run in the Hennessy.

Why are you not having more of a go at the trainer? Please get some common sense into this and look at the facts and not just use blind ignorance. 

[/ QUOTE ]

It wasn't the trainer that gave him two bad shots into the fence.


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## oldvic (17 February 2010)

Paul Nicholls has said that he needs to have him sharper mentally and physically sharper like he was in the Hennessy so that is saying he was not at his best. However nobody should have been expecting to see him at his best as the aim is the Gold Cup. He has publicly said that the horse is lairy and that Ruby said after the Hennessy that blinkers would be interesting. They are not going to use them but may use a sheepskin noseband to help his concentration. 
I have to conclude from this that Denman was NOT at his best.


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## Fantasy_World (17 February 2010)

First of all let me say that in all honesty Sam should have kept the ride as Ruby has other engagements in the gold cup on Kauto and what is the point of Ruby riding a horse in its last prep before Cheltenham when he is unable to take the ride on Denman unless something happens to KS between now and then.
That is no slur against Tony at all as I greatly admire him as a person and jockey and no matter what anyone says about him it will not change my views as we are all entitled to have opinions about people.
What I will also say though is that I do not think that Denman was up to his best that day, last Saturday. It was not jockey error and Tony did the right thing in looking how close the field were to him when he looked between his legs. Lets not forget, we were all ( or most of us anyway) watching the race broadcast from the track. Tony was the person sat aboard the horse and he is the only one who can give a complete analysis of the horse and his ride, not us!
He knew how well or not so well Denman was going.
Even before Denman made the howler which as far as I am concerned was not jockey error, I personally don't think he was going as well as I have seen him in previous races ( but as said before only the jockey would really know how well the horse was going, tired, blowing, full of running etc)
The fact that Niche Market was coming back at him on level weights when in the Hennessey Denman slammed that rival by 7 1/4 lengths conceding no less than 29lbs! to Buckler's charge ( including the 3lb jockey claim) tells me on the form book that either Denman was having an off day or that Niche Market who may well have beaten Denman anyway if he hadn't unseated his rider has improved at a rate of knots between the Hennessey race and last Saturday. 
All will come to light after the gold cup and indeed grand national and then we will know for sure if the 'real' Denman turned up last Saturday or if it was a blip. Either way though from my own viewpoint I do not feel that AP was to blame in the errors that Denman made as I feel that Denman was not his usual bullish self. He failed to show that sheer determination and gallop away from his rivals that we have witnessed in the past. 
I could go into past races into more detail as I have most of them apart from a few novice races on tape but I really can't be bothered.
I will also draw attention to the comment made about AP and Valiramix though. Yes AP was mad. Wouldn't you all be as a jockey if you were sat on a horse with huge potential and with a winning chance in the biggest hurdle race at the Cheltenham festival and to be going so well and then to slip up and fall? Why was his outburst any different to that of other jockey's such as Paddy Merrigan who fell aboard Special Envoy who had a race at his mercy back in Nov 2007 at Haydock. Merrigan was so angry he threw his hat to the ground. Was McCoy's outburst so different because his mount died?
Tony was actually upset when he realised the horse was injured. I can dig the tape out and try to upload it to the pc as I have all the Cheltenham festivals going back to 1995 I think? The same as he was upset when Gloria Victis died as well that he rode in the Gold Cup in 2000. I saw him at another track the Saturday after the race and AP was still clearly very shaken. He went to the racecourse had one ride, it won I think from memory and I can remember putting my hand on his shoulder and saying how sorry I was. 
AP and Sam and Denman aside though,  I will also say that while we may air our opinions on here about race riding, trainer/owner decisions and the selection of jockeys to ride Denman it is frankly none of our business. Denman is not our horse, it belongs to Paul Barber ( who I have a great deal of admiration for as he knows his horses very well, through experience in the ptp field) and Harry Findlay. It is trained by Paul Nicholls and those trio of people are the only ones whose real business it is to select where there horse should run and who should ride it. 
We can moan about things as much as we like but it will not change a single thing. They are the decision makers not us and rightly so!


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## Caledonia (19 February 2010)

I seriously rate AP as a jockey, and he'd win on horses others wouldn't. 
That said, he's not perfect, no jockey is, and other jocks will win on horses that he is too hard on. 

It was me that mentioned Valiramix. AP's first reaction was to tantrum and chuck the helmet on the ground, and only then when the struggling of the stricken horse caught his eye did V's fate even cross his mind. 
Compare AP's reaction to Norman Williamson's reaction to Nick Dundee's fall in the RSA who's reaction may well have saved the horse's life. 
It's all very well being upset after the event, but AP's first thought was losing the CH, not the horse. 
Again, he is a brilliant jockey for SOME horses. But not all.


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## Fantasy_World (19 February 2010)

We will have to agree to disagree then lol because I still feel whether he had a tantrum or not after the incident it bore no bearing on him either as a person or a jockey. I have seen plenty of people 'lose' it momentarily after a fall or losing a race/event in equine events, including racing. Why AP was more out of order than anyone else who has done similar is beyond me?
I also believe that being the competitive person that I am, that I would have acted in exactly the same way if I had felt I had been robbed of winning one of the best hurdle races in the UK. I would not feel guilty in feeling that way either. 
AP did recognise the fate of the horse though but perhaps felt at the time that the horse had not been injured as badly as it was because the horse had been going so well at that point and it was actually recorded as a slip up rather than a fall.
I think that we can all be guilty of preaching our views about others conduct when it suits but perhaps sometimes we should take a step back and consider how it would feel to be inside that other person's shoes for a moment. 
On reflection how one would act is very different sometimes to how one would act in that situation at that time. It was not apparent immediately that the incident was to be fatal and that the horse was severely injured. 
He was not on that horse after it had gone down. 
If you compare this to perhaps say the Amy Tyron incident in which a capable rider should clearly have known she was riding a lame horse  and yet continued to ride it out then I do not feel that what Tony did that day was remotely bad at all.


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## Caledonia (19 February 2010)

I'm not comparing AP to AT. It's not the same issue. But I am comparing AP to NW, which is. 
I was disgusted at him that day, however, it still doesn't tarnish my view of him as a great jockey who wins more races than anyone else. 
That said, I am not blinded by his win record to ignore what I see.
And at no point have I questioned his personality.........just his race attitude.......


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## marmalade76 (25 February 2010)

It was that CH incident  (and Gloria Victus) that put me off AP, I see him as the Lester of NH, win at all costs.
Personally, I don't think Valaramix simply slipped up, I think he clipped the heels of the horse in front and tripped, which was AP's fault for getting too close. Being ultra competitive is fine, but not at the expence of the horses.


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## Fantasy_World (4 March 2010)

Yes the horse did clip heels with the horse in front which happened to be Ansar. Horse was in 4th place and going very well four out. As they were making further progress between 3 and 2 out, Valiramix clipped heels with Ansar and went down. It was a crucial stage of the race as the pace generally quickens at that point. Personally I don't apportion blame to the rider or the horse. It was an accident, plain and simple. These things happen in racing and other equine sports. Tell me do you race ride as well? Have you ever ridden in a race of champion and grade one quality aboard horses that are the Rolls Royce of their breed? If you have and that goes for anyone else criticising jockeys for their efforts -whether over jumps and flat racing- then people have the expertise and practice to enable them to make informed decisions over the actions of another.
If people haven't then I guess we should all just sit down in our comfy armchairs and continue to debate how jockeys should race ride in grade one races at grade one tracks, even though we have never been a top class jockey ourselves. Shall we invite the likes of Mick Fitzgerald, Lester Piggott, Norman Williamson, Pat Eddery etc to declare their informed judgemental opinions, because only then I would be inclined to listen


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## Caledonia (5 March 2010)

So you can pass an informed opinion that they are good jockeys, mistake free, despite never having been one yourself, yet others cannot express a differing opinion from the same outlook?


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## oldvic (5 March 2010)

If you heard AP's post race analysis of a horse you would realise that this is only possible by having great empathy with horses and an understanding of what makes them tick. Yes he wants to win but that is what racing is about and what he is paid to try and do. Why is it wrong to try to have a good work ethic?


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## Fantasy_World (5 March 2010)

Good jockeys ride winners hence why they are chosen to ride horses by the trainers and the owners of the horses. We as mere spectators of the sport do not share the same privilege unless we too are the owner or trainer of a horse and we need to select a jockey for it.
I did not say that jockeys don't make mistakes, we are all human and isn't the saying ' to err is human?' 
In the case of AP it was an accident with Valiramix end of.
My point was clearly to point out to people that it is not a simple black and white issue. 
Jockeys riding in grade one races are under a lot of pressure from the trainers/owners/officialdom and the racing public themselves. If a horse does not achieve the most attainable position in race that is possible because it is not ridden to its full potential then jockeys get screamed at for either being lazy, schooling in public or that they are being paid to lose the race. 
In the case of AP that day in the CH the horse was travelling extremely well, they were making their move. Ansar was in front and for a moment the horse in front was not going fast enough to get clear of the acceleration of pace by AP's mount. It happens a lot in races. How many times do you see horses get bumped along the rails or bunching up around a bend or at a crucial time in a race. The decision he had made was a split second one. 
The horse was travelling at x amount of speed and obviously at that point faster than Ansar, hence why they clipped heels.
My argument was as such, if someone has never had that experience riding a top class animal at breakneck speed how could they be so judgemental that it was jockey error unless they have actually experienced it first hand aboard a similar horse themselves?
No I have never been employed to ride horses in a race. However race-reading of races and interviewing jockeys/trainers/owners/officials was very much part of my employment though. 
Old Vic well said


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## bonny (6 March 2010)

I was told by a racecourse vet that Valiramix broke his shoulder, probably had a hairline crack and it shattered at that point in the race - you could hear the bone break.  I'm not sure it had anything to do with the horse being too close to the one in front .....or to the way he was ridden, just one of those things in racing....


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## Caledonia (6 March 2010)

Fantasma, race reading is an opinion, and assessment. Many of the serious pundits who earn a proper living at it disagree with each other, it's the nature of forming opinions. So as someone who has also earned from race reading, my opinion (by your criteria) is as valid as yours. As far as your argument goes, if you say you can't pass an opinion because you have never ridden in a race at Cheltenham, then that applies across the board and also to you. 
However, I have evented when the steeplechase phases still existed and I have ridden work on racehorses, so I do have a bit of a clue about riding and jumping horses at speed. 

AP was at fault after Valiramix fell by indulging a tantrum rather than checking the horse. He is a great jockey, but his will to win sometimes overrides the wellbeing of the horse. That allows him to be the winner in the numbers game, but that is not always a great work ethic when animals are involved.


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## Fantasy_World (6 March 2010)

Bonny yes my point entirely. The horse's injuries had nothing do with how the horse was ridden that day and neither did the fact that AP flung his helmet to the ground and did not attend to his stricken horse straightaway have any bearing on the outcome. The horse had a fractured shoulder. That was reported in the press the next day, I have a copy of the Racing Post dated Wednesday march 13th 2002 to hand to scan if anyone would like to see the reported stories by the press and even images taken when the horse actually clipped heels and went down. 
Caledonia whether you have ridden racehorses in work or not or have steeplechased eventers is besides the point. I too have galloped at speed and jumped fences in my time and yet I would never dare to suppose that I have the experience of the quick thinking needed by a jockey in a truly run race at breakneck speed in a race such as the Cheltenham champion hurdle. 
My point was simple in that unless someone has actually ridden in a race such as that, and been on a horse that has finished in the frame, won or had a very good chance of winning ( as we are not talking about the 200/1 no hopers that are there just to give the owners a day out and pass to events such as Cheltenham) then how could they give a truly valued opinion about such an incident?
I have race read, through work and as a serious punter and despite the fact that I am well regarded by a few race-reader friends and know a great deal about the sport I would never dream of saying that I know everything and that I am always right. I know you are not saying that either but I still wanted to make a point. 
People will continue to disagree c'est la vie. However what did annoy me was the constant criticism of a man who was simply doing his job and that people who have never been in a similar position ( if they have then speak out!) were being over critical of a situation that was not the jockey's fault not only in my eyes but have a read of the above mentioned newspaper as well ( and no not all journalists see through rosy spectacles before anyone claims that they do) Horse suffered a fatal injury and yes it was very sad. I know Mr Pipe ( David and Martin), AP, travelling head lad and other people at the stable personally and I know that they were sad about the whole incident, as they were over Gloria Victis too.
We are all entitled to an opinion and I have given mine too. 
I doubt AP would lose any sleep over what happened. It occurred a long time ago. Yes it made him sad at the time, as it would any jockey with a heart and an empathy for horses. To be fair I have seen more compassion from jockeys- particularly National Hunt- to their mounts than I have in any other equine sport, so they do care. 
But jockeys mostly go on to live and fight another day, sadly some of their mounts do not. That is a sad fact of racing and any other sport that involves equines. Accidents happen and that day an awful one took place, but in my own view based on race watching -as I am no premier jockey- that is all that I saw. An accident which was non preventable in my book. AP saw a chance of winning the race for connections and had a horse capable of doing so. Horse came down, fractured shoulder and it was that bad the horse could not be saved and was destroyed. AP knew he had a winning chance and anyone with a fighting spirit would have acted the way he did knowing that the horse would most probably have won ( yes my opinion again) so to fling his helmet and have a tantrum. A lot of sports professionals throw 'paddies' when they have either made a serious mistake or lost the chance of winning by a fluke or accident, Wimbledon springs to mind as the most notable event that throws them up, oh I forgot that is not racing though is it lol. AP did act in the horse's best interests though. He most probably thought at the time that the horse was winded when it fell heavily like that as it did not try to get up straight away. It was reported though that when the horse got up and tried to run AP caught up with it and brought it to a standstill. I could most probably fish the recording of the race out as I have many, many Cheltenham's recorded but I really cannot be bothered as it wouldn't make a blind bit of difference to this conversation.
You have your view and I have mine. We will never agree on this one, so let's call it a day heh? There is far more to life. I just wanted to reply to your post so I have. I have more important **** to deal with and there is also the prospect of the 2010 festival around the corner when I am looking forward to the Denman vs Kauto Star clash as I have a huge respect for both horses.


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## Caledonia (6 March 2010)

My point, which you seem to ignore, is that you are no better placed to pass judgement than me or anyone else if you take the stance that you need to have ridden in races to comment. 
You comment as if AP is perfect. He's not. So deal with it.


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## Fantasy_World (6 March 2010)

I did not say that AP is perfect no one is so stop trying to twist what I say. For gawds sake stop getting your knickers -or whatever else you have on- in a twist. 
I don't need to deal with anything luv it is you who has the problem as you keep bringing up how wrong it was -supposedly-for AP to slam down his helmet in a paddy as he did; when there have been other times when jockeys have done the same thing. I think it is you who needs to get over it lol


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## Caledonia (6 March 2010)

My knickers are fine thanks...... at least you've finally acknowledged he has his faults now.


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## Fantasy_World (6 March 2010)

Glad to hear your knickers are ok cos there is nowt worse than them falling down legs and making you trip up, not that I have ever had the misfortune to have that happen but I bet it is damned funny to see if they do lol ( by that I mean everyone btw). Yes he does have faults as do a lot of other jockeys and people too. No one is infallible.


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## oldvic (6 March 2010)

Caledonia - the steeplechase of a 3 day event cannot compare to racing. The speed is a fair bit slower than an ordinary chase, let alone a champion hurdle. Not only that but you are "competing" against a clock, not other horses so it is a different type of riding. The bias of riding work is different too with the emphasis on fittening, not getting from point A to point B faster than your rivals. Therefore while it gives you more understanding of speed than a happy hacker, it is not the same.
Top sportsmen in all sports act impulsively when things go wrong. Like top competitive horses they must be near the edge to produce the brilliance. Therefore it is understandable that they boil over when sh!t happens. Emotions run high and we don't necessarily behave in as rational a way as in every day life.
I dispute that the well being of the horse is overridden by AP's will to win. He wouldn't want to harm a horse any more than you would, however remember these horses have a job, just like him, to win races. They are worshipped by their connections but they are not pets and if he can instill his work ethic into them to win races that they weren't sure they could then I, for one, will appreciate what he does.


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## Caledonia (6 March 2010)

I know there's a difference between the chase phase and a race. For a start you have the problems of other horses beside you. 
I was not saying the speed compares,(especially as that is entirely irrelevant in the total disregard AP had for the stricken horse) but there are parallels in how horses jump, whatever the nature of the competition because of their psychological and physiological make up. And interfering on Denman caused the problems, IMO. 
I think AP was at fault, you don't. We disagree. I'm not basing my opinion on the odd race, I've watched AP his whole career, along with jockeys before him. I have ATR &amp; RUK on all day. I have my opinion of him founded on all the races I see him ride, the opinions of trainers and owners (that I know) who have used him, and how I perceive the longevity of the horses he has ridden.
I think he's a great jockey on SOME horses. But I wouldn't have him on mine.


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## oldvic (6 March 2010)

An event horse on the steeplechase didn't come off the bridle like a racehorse does and with the reduced speed horse and rider have more time to make decisions and adjustments. Therefore the parallels are very limited. However good a rider there will always be some horses that they don't gel with but as you know I don't think this is the case with Denman. I certainly don't think he affects the longevity of a horse - they come out of a race at least as well as with other jockeys when he has ridden them and definitely good in their heads. Those of us who don't have time to watch telly all day still observe a lot through the RUK replays and the websites of both channels so are no less informed.


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## Caledonia (7 March 2010)

You see a different rider to me then......

Admittedly event horses don't come off the bridle, and are not quite as tired  as racehorses towards the end of a race. But to me, that kind of backs up my argument that asking a tiring horse more than he feels capable of is a recipe for disaster. 

Ruby kept Pasco safe yesterday by allowing him to pop. As he does with Denman. To me that is the mark of a true horseman, to respect the animal underneath him.


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## oldvic (7 March 2010)

Pasco's natural preference is to pop. All the way down the back he was ridden forward to find a good spot. Ruby asked Pasco up long two out with the horse going flat and looking like he was not entirely comfortable with the idea. There was no choice but to pop the last as there was not a long option and outside the wings is out of Pasco's range (and Big Fella Thanks was going better anyway). 
I hate the british trend to knock the successful - AP does respect his horses. Asking them to do their job is not treating them with disrespect and our horses don't have a problem with him.


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## Changes (7 March 2010)

Is it bollox about knocking him because he's successful in this instance. I have said several times he's a great jockey in respect of winning races, and can galvanise horses that other jockeys wouldn't win on. But I'd not choose him for mine. 

I disagree with you about AP ...... that's the end of it.


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## Changes (7 March 2010)

Oi - That's not me writing that!! 







Caledonia don't know which one of us is the daft tart here - me for using your puter and not logging out before leaving this morning, or you for not checking 
	
	
		
		
	


	





Must take more water with it in future.


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## Caledonia (7 March 2010)

[ QUOTE ]
Oi - That's not me writing that!! 







Caledonia don't know which one of us is the daft tart here - me for using your puter and not logging out before leaving this morning, or you for not checking 
	
	
		
		
	


	





Must take more water with it in future.  
	
	
		
		
	


	

















[/ QUOTE ]

























That'll teach me to write stroppy replies in a hurry whilst hungover...........


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## oldvic (7 March 2010)

My horse will be delighted - more chance of him having his favourite jockey if you don't want him!!
I am sure AP won't lose any sleep over you not wanting him riding for you.


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