# Ask a Parelli student....no holds barred....you asked, I giveth.



## tongue~n~cheek (12 July 2010)

So, it seems to me that many might like some answers to why we do things the way we do.  Maybe you have asked a student before and not been given a satisfactory answer, one that actually help you understand.  Maybe you asked someone, and they shunned you or were rude to you.  Maybe you are too afraid to ask, because you feel like the "method" will be crammed down your throat as you all know, we are the fastest growing "cult" since Jesus.  Maybe you havn't asked because you are afraid your friends will riddicule you for doing so, when all you want to do is understand.

While I am a very busy person, I promise, that I will do my very best to explain HONEST questions, about ANY part of parelli.  be it the techniques, program, club, philosphy, fears, etc.  I may not respond quickly, as I work and have alot of horses in my care, but as long as you are not rude, or turn this into bashing, I WILL answer what ever you ask.

You have asked for it on another thread, stated that you have not recieved what you need to make an informed discision or whatever, so here it is.  Don't be shy.

Not sure about me?  Read my posts on the catwalk thread and I hope you will see, that I am not a mindless, driveling, brainwashed sheep, who has been dooped out of my horendous fortune.

I hope to merely a bridge to narrow the gap, nothing more, and promise I will not bash you or what you do.

Shingle hung, door is open, walk on in.


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## siennamum (12 July 2010)

Why are advocates of Parelli so patronising?


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## Kaylum (12 July 2010)

So are you saying that what people have seen with their own eyes is not to be believed.  As said I went to one of the clinics a few years ago and was not impressed only stayed for one day or is there something else we are missing?  Should we just have stayed and watched something we didnt like or felt uncomfortable with.


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## Cinnamontoast (12 July 2010)

How is Parelli so bloody successful? He does nothing but circus tricks (what's the point of them?) or common sense stuff yet appears to be enormously rich.

How can he do what he did at the demonstration at Stoneleigh and still be respected?


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## planete (12 July 2010)

Hello Tongue-n-Cheek.  Thank you for posting here.  I am afraid Mr.P. has thoroughly put off quite a few people.  It would be good if it was made extremely clear that he is only the last and not the best natural horsemanship practitioner (just the loudest).  He has borrowed from a lot of horse trainers and turned it into a circus.   Anybody genuinely interested should try one of Mark Rashid books for example.  A huge dose of common sense, love and respect for the horse, and a few digs at the way some use 'natural horsemanship methods'.  There have been, and are, some brilliant horse people who do use natural horsemanship methods to improve the life of horses and the understanding humans have of them.  In all fairness, this needs to be recognised.


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## Bay_Beasty (12 July 2010)

I am utterly offended you refer to Jesus as a cult!!!! It definitely is not a cult! take it back!!!!


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## tongue~n~cheek (12 July 2010)

this was not intended to be patronizing.  specific people did specifically ask.  it is not about pat parelli, nor catwalk.  it is about students and a comunity.  some people here have stated they want to understand a few things, and no one will answer thier questions.  I will.  no more, no less.  

the one thing I wont answer here is about stonleigh.  my answer is on that thread. look it up there please.

Jesus is not a cult, and I was not suggesting he was


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## tongue~n~cheek (12 July 2010)

Kaylum said:



			So are you saying that what people have seen with their own eyes is not to be believed.  As said I went to one of the clinics a few years ago and was not impressed only stayed for one day or is there something else we are missing?  Should we just have stayed and watched something we didnt like or felt uncomfortable with.
		
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No, if you don't like something, leave.  If you came to learn and feel that it is not right for you, you should leave.  it is your perogative.  it is not for everyone, just like anything else.  i am not impressed with a few instructors myself


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## tongue~n~cheek (12 July 2010)

cinammontoast said:



			How is Parelli so bloody successful? He does nothing but circus tricks (what's the point of them?) or common sense stuff yet appears to be enormously rich.

How can he do what he did at the demonstration at Stoneleigh and still be respected?
		
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I cannot comment on the stonleigh thing because respect is a very personal thing.

Parelli is sucessful because it meets a need for many people.

horsemanship is anything but common sense.  in reference to 'circus tricks" you need to be more specific.  I cannot answer generalizations

He is rich, because his product works.  people want more.  it doesn't work for everyone and that is what it is.  for those it works for, we want more.


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## tongue~n~cheek (12 July 2010)

bay_beasty said:



			I am utterly offended you refer to Jesus as a cult!!!! It definitely is not a cult! take it back!!!!
		
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"Maybe you are too afraid to ask, because you feel like the "method" will be crammed down your throat as you all know, we are the fastest growing "cult" since Jesus. "

I am truley sorry, I forgot for a moment I was on a new forum, and you all are not used to my humorus sense of sarcasm.  that was wrong on my part. sorry

I honestly find the whole "cult" thing rediculous, as Pat and Linda are not THAT good to have created a "cult", though I agree it does apear that way, and at times, even to some us.


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## Bay_Beasty (12 July 2010)

Don't worry tongue-in-cheek no harm done!


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## thatsmygirl (12 July 2010)

Linda and her abuse to the one eyed horse, could you explain that and why she abused the horse like she did?


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## DragonSlayer (12 July 2010)

Ok, I'll ask a question.

Mr. P needed all these things, ropes, lines etc etc to get this horse to accept a bridle...

Now, my horse is NOT a stallion, but being a 17.2 he threw he weight around and injuries to humans happened...

Is it the intention of Parelli to get a 'quick fix now'....because although it took a few months, we got Bob (the monster 17.2) to accept his bridle, and 9 years down the line, he still does, with no looking back, ANd we can mess with his ears, he actually seems to enjoy it now, and drops his head for an 'ear-rub'....

I believe we earned that trust.....and the way Mr. P did it....makes me think that Parelli is wanting a quick way to get the horse to accept the bridle.

So why all the gadgets?

thanks!


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## tongue~n~cheek (12 July 2010)

planete said:



			Hello Tongue-n-Cheek.  Thank you for posting here.  I am afraid Mr.P. has thoroughly put off quite a few people.  It would be good if it was made extremely clear that he is only the last and not the best natural horsemanship practitioner (just the loudest).  He has borrowed from a lot of horse trainers and turned it into a circus.   Anybody genuinely interested should try one of Mark Rashid books for example.  A huge dose of common sense, love and respect for the horse, and a few digs at the way some use 'natural horsemanship methods'.  There have been, and are, some brilliant horse people who do use natural horsemanship methods to improve the life of horses and the understanding humans have of them.  In all fairness, this needs to be recognised.
		
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A agree to some extent.  some people, SOME, blindly follow pat and linda.  they put blind faith and trust in everything they do, and do not question anything.  but that is not everyone, I can assure you that.

I posted this because the other clinicians do not have this problem, and quite honestly that speaks for itself.


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## tongue~n~cheek (12 July 2010)

I am off to bed and will get to what I can tomorow.


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## Caledonia (12 July 2010)

I'd really like to know what your opinion as a horseman is on this video. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mwYAn4IH918


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## DragonSlayer (12 July 2010)

Caledonia said:



			I'd really like to know what your opinion as a horseman is on this video. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mwYAn4IH918

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We also had loading issues with Bob (the one with bridle issuse) and my husband sorted him out with that one..

He had a lunge line on bob, and sat half-way up the ramp on the lorry, with his flask of tea and paper....didn't ask Bob (who was gearing up for a fight) to do a thing. OH just sat there.....occasionally talking to Bob...and when I returned after a ride on one of the other horses, turned him away and did a few jobs...over 3 hours had passed, I came round the corner to see OH still sat, Bob was hopping, obviously bored to tears....then you know what?

In he went, and NEVER a bother again.

We have a IW 510 trailer now, and he loads and travels in that perfectly.

PATIENCE is how I teach my horses to trust me. OH and me have worked on a few other horses for friends too....with great success.....


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## Tinypony (12 July 2010)

This new poster has started this thread to try to answer some questions and be helpful.  It might be worth taking that in the spirit it's intended?  They have offered to talk about the method so why go on the attack about the marketing, Pat P being rich etc?  They have also talked about the stallion at Stoneleigh on that thread, and asked not to repeat it here.  If you read what they said, they are not too happy about it either.
I don't think that this person is here to defend the extremes, but if you want to understand some of the Parelli theory, here's your chance.  You might agree or disagree, but it would give you an insight.
(Having said that, I tried to do that several times in the past, and it was a waste of time).


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## Bay_Beasty (12 July 2010)

I am going to simulate my foot up that mans ar*e. What a ****!!! 

i have a new theory on Parelli, its like communism, on paper it sounds ok. In practice its a whole other story......


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## SpottedCat (12 July 2010)

Ok, my question is:

I understand the using the rope to get them to back up thing. I also understand that you start with a little wiggle and gradually make it 'stronger' until the horse gets the idea and backs up. What I do not understand is why you use a rope with a heavy metal swivel clip on it, which by the nature of the halters 'encouraged' by Parelli hangs a couple of inches below the head, and which inevitably hits the horse on the face as the rope wiggle gets stronger? Can you please explain why this is considered acceptable, given that most horse people (natural or otherwise) would be pretty unhappy if someone stood in front of them and hit a horse repeatedly, gradualy getting harder, under the 'chin' with a stick until it figured out what is wanted and moved backwards. I would like to know a) why Parelli advocates have an issue with giving a napping horse one smack with a stick on the backside and yet no qualms about repeatedly slamming a heavy metal clip into its face and b) why no-one involved with the group has come up with an alternative design and shown that it works better/as well but without the issue of the metal clip hitting the horse's head. 

Obviously this is highly effective because eventually, to avoid being hit by a clip round the head, the horse responds to the small wiggle, which is the result which Parelli advocates will tell you justify the means. But it does not sit well with me, not least because I have used the same technique, minus the clip, to teach horses to back up on voice command (which frankly, is what I want as rope wiggling is a lot of effort if you can just say 'back' instead  ).

Thanks!


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## Godknows (12 July 2010)

Caledonia said:



			I'd really like to know what your opinion as a horseman is on this video. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mwYAn4IH918

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I wouldn't want him teaching my youngster to load.  I think he is doing more harm than good and frightening the horse.


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## horses13 (12 July 2010)

The user name 'Tongue in cheek' i may be wrong but it says to me this person is talking tongue in cheek


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## RunToEarth (12 July 2010)

Fastest growing cult since jesus? Get over yourselves, its a load of commercial ****e. If I wanted to get my horse to walk backwards when I pulled his tail I would have bought a shetland or a barbie horse, lest spend decent money on a hunter to play games with it and tie it up.


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## siennamum (12 July 2010)

Caledonia said:



			I'd really like to know what your opinion as a horseman is on this video. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mwYAn4IH918

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That's absolutely horrifying. He just ends up hitting it at the end. Poor horse.


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## MurphysMinder (12 July 2010)

Caledonia said:



			I'd really like to know what your opinion as a horseman is on this video. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mwYAn4IH918

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Can't see he achieved anything there apart from stress the mare.  Had to smile at one point, he has just said "watch my feet, my feet don't move" and she dragged him forwards several steps.
Looking at the state of that trailer I think the horse was showing a good sense of self preservation by refusing to load into it.


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## outandabout (12 July 2010)

Ok... I have an actual question about Parelli (which I have never practiced).  I understand that a lot of practitioners of Parelli learn the method from DVDs; apart from the potential to reach a wider audience, what are the benefits for a novice horse owner in using a DVD over having an actual instructor to help them?  As a Parelli teacher, do you have concerns about those who have learned from the DVD not using the methods 'properly'?  This is not meant to be inflammatory, it is a genuine question!


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## china (12 July 2010)

i dont get what happened at stoneleigh, can someone point me in the right direction?? i dont have anything against parelli, i just dont do it. it works for some people and not for others, it would work with my tb! he cack his pants at one wiggle of the rope!


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## zefragile (12 July 2010)

What's with the rudeness? OP offered to answer questions, there's no need to be snarky.


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## lochpearl (12 July 2010)

Caledonia said:



			I'd really like to know what your opinion as a horseman is on this video. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mwYAn4IH918

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That was disgusting to watch - how to make a horse petrified of you and the trailer. So, what is the reasoning behind this video, why not try and lead the horse to the trailer and why teach it to be so scared and jump the ramp? Explanation please!


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## Pixxie (12 July 2010)

well ive got to get my horse who is bad to load to the vets on wednesday, maybe ill give those cowboy methods a go, i think Marley would definitely oblige.....dont you?


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## kerilli (12 July 2010)

Okay, i have a genuine question. I've been to a 2-day Parelli demo and I'm open-minded.

When the horses are being worked at liberty (I'm thinking particularly of the 2 Friesians that were worked by the lady in the electric wheelchair) why do they have their ears back all the time they are working around her, with their tails swishing... why do they look so angry all the time?  I realise they're staying near her of their own volition, but I cannot work out why they do not work like relaxed, happy, ears-forward horses.
Absolutely genuine question.
Fwiw I've been around horses for my entire life and I like to think that I'm good at reading equine body language and mood by now - I've had a lot of horses to teach me it over the years.
Thankyou.


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## LMuirEDT (12 July 2010)

zefragile said:



			What's with the rudeness? OP offered to answer questions, there's no need to be snarky.
		
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Agree.  I have a v basic genuine question, what is Parelli?  I have my own thoughts and personally have never got involved with it but no one has ever actually explained to me what it is and what purpose it has.


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## sykokat (12 July 2010)

Tongue in cheek; they asked, you giveth, now please taketh away. I have watched the loading video and others on parelli TBH all I see is a man hell bent on confusing the animal. And as for now fear or pressure etc, OPEN YOUR EYES FGS!!!!!!!


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## KS1 (12 July 2010)

kerilli said:



			Okay, i have a genuine question. I've been to a 2-day Parelli demo and I'm open-minded.

When the horses are being worked at liberty (I'm thinking particularly of the 2 Friesians that were worked by the lady in the electric wheelchair) why do they have their ears back all the time they are working around her, with their tails swishing... why do they look so angry all the time?  I realise they're staying near her of their own volition, but I cannot work out why they do not work like relaxed, happy, ears-forward horses.
Absolutely genuine question.
Fwiw I've been around horses for my entire life and I like to think that I'm good at reading equine body language and mood by now - I've had a lot of horses to teach me it over the years.
Thankyou.
		
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The lady in question is Silke Vallentin from Germany and she only has one Freisian now after the other died in an accident.  The ears are not pinned back but back as in listening as do dressage horses. The tail swishing I can't comment but I see this behaviour at HOYs when horses look all excited at jumping, ears pricked and the tail swishing like mad. Maybe the tail swishing is not always a sign of discomfort as we are led to believe.

I enjoy using Parelli techniques and it works for me and my horses and people always comment on how loyal, loving and easy to be around they are. However I do use other techniques and yes Mark Rashid's books are great and I have had the pleasure of attending one of his clinics. I also like Ken Faulkner.

Back to Parelli, there will always be those that are 100% committed to the ways of PNH and won't look outside the box, then there are people like me that open the door to other techniques and those that refuse to even give other methods a look in. Nothing will change that and it will be the way for always.


Like you I do also question some of the things done via PNH, Catwalk.. I left confused asking the why question. I never went on saturday but would love to know what happened. Sunday I was back and I got bored listening to the chat but I have heard it so many times and whilke I enjoyed the session with Pat the session with Linda after Georgia had to leave left me bored. I actually fell asleep a few times and decided to go outside for some fresh air. Mind give Linda her dues she was caught on the hop as she never expected her session to go as it did.
Incidently I loved Georgia's attitude, she was a lovely person and in a polite and positive way she expressed her thoughts.

How can Pat and Linda make so much money from something that they even say  "Is so old its new again" Pat makes no defence of learning from others and using this and his skills in bringing the program about.
So again how do they make money from this..  simple...  as long as people are willing to spend then the market is out there. Same as how do top eventers make there money..  as long as the work is there and people are willing to pay then the pennies will look after themselves.

When I first started with PNH I bought everything that came out, now a few years down the line I am more sensible and only buy what I need or really want. 

Tongue in Cheek is offering a big thing and doing her best to answer peoples confusions and concerns as I see some people are still getting agitated and to some extent attacking the Parelli system still with negative comments.

You can still ask the same questions but instead of in an attacking way is it not better to be more constructive as that way TIC can give a better explanatory reply to the best of her knowledge.


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## kerilli (12 July 2010)

hmm, i think i can tell the difference between an attentive horse with its ears back, and an angry horse with its ears back. these were definitely the latter, their whole body language looked angry imho - i wouldn't have mentioned it otherwise!
i can't help thinking that that came across as a fairly typically supercilious Parelli response though...  
sorry to hear she lost 1 of them.


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## china (12 July 2010)

miss_buffay said:



			i dont get what happened at stoneleigh, can someone point me in the right direction?? i dont have anything against parelli, i just dont do it. it works for some people and not for others, it would work with my tb! he cack his pants at one wiggle of the rope!
		
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that was meant to be would't! is the dont be snarky comment aimed at me?


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## siennamum (12 July 2010)

miss_buffay said:



			that was meant to be would't! is the dont be snarky comment aimed at me?
		
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Don't worry I'm sure it was more likely aimed at me. I can't help myself, it irritates me when someone assumes that because I don't do things the way they do things it's because I don't know any better. In reality I think the opposite is probably true.

I would happily adopt Parelli, I just haven't seen any good stuff or benefit to myself or my horses. The only Parelli demo I've seen was performed by some very unhappy horses & they just did circus tricks. I certainly have a great deal of respect for much of the stuff which has filtered through into mainstream horse management & understanding from people like Richard Maxwell. I sense that he wouldn't patronise me tho' (& that he could probably spell!!- always important when you are lecturing people)


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## brighteyes (12 July 2010)

kerilli said:



			Okay, i have a genuine question. I've been to a 2-day Parelli demo and I'm open-minded.

When the horses are being worked at liberty (I'm thinking particularly of the 2 Friesians that were worked by the lady in the electric wheelchair) why do they have their ears back all the time they are working around her, with their tails swishing... why do they look so angry all the time?  I realise they're staying near her of their own volition, but I cannot work out why they do not work like relaxed, happy, ears-forward horses.
Absolutely genuine question.
Fwiw I've been around horses for my entire life and I like to think that I'm good at reading equine body language and mood by now - I've had a lot of horses to teach me it over the years.
Thankyou.
		
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That was MY question - they always look really cross and tetchy, Ears back and tail swishing and a definite glint in their eyes which I read as 'Oh for Goodness' sake, go away and leave me alone.  I'm sick of this!'


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## PaddyMonty (12 July 2010)

I do have a genuine question.
A bit of background first.  I've been around horses for 46 years now and do like to investigate something before I either accept or dismiss it.  Thus I studied PNH for a while and practiced on one of my horses.
It appears to me that 'timing' of the pressure release is critical and that this should be at the slightest sign of the horse doing as asked (getting the idea).
Recognition of the slightest sign requires (I believe) considerable experience around horses to gain the ability to instantly read their body language.

So my question - if a very key element of successfully using PNH requires a deep understanding of horse body language, why is it marketed at novices?
Surely a novice does not have the ability to react fast enough to small changes in body language and therefore is highly likely to confuse the horse and create stress.

My gut feel after studying PNH for a while was experienced horse peeps dont need it and novices dont have the knowledge to use it safely (horse not human safety).


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## baymareb (12 July 2010)

Question regarding the loading video.  I'm struck by the way he is swinging the rope to "simulate a predator" while trying to get her to cross the ramp.

First of all, I'd like to know why one would want to simulate a predator to encourage a horse to load. That is using fear, is it not?

Second, Parelli horses are taught to back up when the rope is wiggled, correct?  I am mystified as to how the horse is supposed to differentiate between the wiggle to back up and the wiggle to simulate a predator.  It seems unnecessarily confusing to the horse to use such similar cues.

Third, the man is paying absolutely no attention to the horse.  She is being driven about while he is talking and not even looking her way.  I am pretty sure that if he shut up, stopped swinging that damn rope and just talked quietly to her, he'd have a far better shot of getting her comfortable about that trailer.  She does not look comfortable at all.

Please explain why you would use this method rather than simply speaking calmly to her and encouraging her to investigate the trailer.


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## Shysmum (12 July 2010)

God, OP I agree that your post is soooooo patronising. In case you didn't read it in the original thread, I have reported your idols to the animal welfare authorities in the UK. Let's see what happens. 

Abuse is abuse -  there is NO justification to train a horse with fear or pain - NEVER. Don't you think this is the time to keep quiet and not try and push parelli ? As far as I can see, the vast majority of us, in the UK and USA are somewhat sickened by  their methods - and they are stupid enough to include much of this footage in their "training videos for novices".

My stomach churns at the thought of what goes on behind the scenes. Both with the "idols" and with novices trying to learn from said videos.


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## LMR (12 July 2010)

The reason Parelli is aimed at novices is because people with more experience with horses realise that the majority of the system is bull sh*t and is NOT natural horsemanship but a business making money. It does worry me that people are throwing there money at this system and learning incorrectly. I know there is not just one system for training horses but i fail to understand what this particular system is trying to achieve!


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## cronkmooar (12 July 2010)

OK - this is not posted at anyone in particular - just in case anyone thinks they are being accused of being snarky 

If you have read the other thread, and after millions of pages it is easy to forget everthing that was posted, the OP does come accross as being a sensible individual.

I think this lady (appologies if I have this wrong) is in fact a genuine poster, that quite clearly does have a mind of her own, and has made it abundantly clear what she does and does not agree with on the other thread.

I think her intention with this thread was to answer genuine questions that people might have about Parelli/Natural Horsemanship or what ever else you want to call it.

My personal opinion (for what it is worth) is that it is some of the comments that have so far bee posted are unnessesary 

I have no interest in parelli nor have I practised it and I am not aware that I am a member of any brainwashing cults  but I do have manners and I think some of this thread is a bit rude to the OP


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## baymareb (12 July 2010)

I did read the entirety of the other thread and agree this poster seems sincere in his or her desire to contribute.  Which is why I did post an honest question on this thread and I keep checking it to see if there will be an answer.  So far I've been disappointed.


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## Bay_Beasty (12 July 2010)

LMR said:



			The reason Parelli is aimed at novices is because people with more experience with horses realise that the majority of the system is bull sh*t and is NOT natural horsemanship but a business making money. It does worry me that people are throwing there money at this system and learning incorrectly. I know there is not just one system for training horses but i fail to understand what this particular system is trying to achieve!
		
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Beautifully put!!!! I second this point!


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## cronkmooar (12 July 2010)

baymareb said:



			I did read the entirety of the other thread and agree this poster seems sincere in his or her desire to contribute.  Which is why I did post an honest question on this thread and I keep checking it to see if there will be an answer.  So far I've been disappointed.
		
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She has posted she was off to bed and will answer what she can tomorrow - from her posts yesterday I get the impression she is not in the UK?


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## Bay_Beasty (12 July 2010)

baymareb said:



			I did read the entirety of the other thread and agree this poster seems sincere in his or her desire to contribute.  Which is why I did post an honest question on this thread and I keep checking it to see if there will be an answer.  So far I've been disappointed.
		
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she is in america and said she was going to bed at like 8 am this morning so i figure her day will start as ours ends. she must be west coast. i am sure she will reply. I have so many questions to ask her but most of these have already be put forward so i will just watch and see how she replies to the ones already put. I dont like Parelli but I am interested in it as it clearly makes a huge amount of money (its downfall IMO) and some people obviously think it is good. Like i have said before, the idea parelli puts across is a good one, but only on paper, but in practice i just dont see how it works and it reminds me of how communism was in russia under Stalins rule. that is really how I see it and I am sorry if the offends people. But to each their own, i was more annoyed that she called Following Jesus a cult, which made me very cross. but she has apologized for that.


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## Onyxia (12 July 2010)

OK,here we go.
1) Why are the Parelli's so resistant to any form of critasism?
If someone belives what they are doing is right,and want to show the world a "better way" why not allow your every action to be put under the microscope? If what you do really does work and really is "better"  would you not welcome scrutiny?

2)On a personal level,do you feel the buissnes side has over taken the horse care side for the Parelli's? It would seem to be that way to most of use looking in from the outside....

3)Following on 
 Why is the required equipment so damn expensive?

The "Get Started" DVD is £16.98.Level 1 & 2 are £135.32.
 BHS stage one is around £13,£15 for stage 2 and the sylabuss for any is avalable free from their website.

Onto equipment-
http://shop.parellinaturalhorsetraining.com/product.jsf?catId=109
that 4 piece  kit costs £120.28.
Lets break it down.
A)Headcollar/halter/whatever you want to call it- Robinsons have one not a million miles apaart from the official PP one for a fiver.
http://www.robinsons-uk.com/product...pCode=0303&groupCode=03301&view=all#sku.56620

B)12 ft/3.5(ish) m rope. Lunge line would do the job,again widely avalable at around £5.
C)The carrot stick.
I really _really_ can not see any difference between this and a normal whip.
Once again,widely avalable for a few pounds.Robinsons(no,I don't have shares in them just an open tab) have some pretty in your face colours cheap too if that makes a difference.
D)The Savvy string. Once again I can see no use for this that could not be met by a good old fashioned leadrop and some bailer twine.

So to recap- PP kit- £120.
Local tack shop-£20.
Now I am sure there are instructors out there with a brain who do advise you to borrow a DVD/use current common bits and bobs to start with,but all the ones I have come into contact with insist ONLY the branded equipemtn will do,and of course,it can only be bought direct(unless you stalk Ebay for someone chucking it out).
Once again,to me this smacks of money grabbing not "spreading the good word" while covering costs.

4)This is the thing I have most issue with.
Why try to make Parelli methods the only ones people listen to? 
Other methods enjoy equal (if not greater) sucess and are employed day in,day out by many more people around the world.
Any good horseman will understand the need to look at what people are doing,then think about it and decide if it is something usefull.
The attempted removing of that by Parelli instructors is a worry.

Sure I will think of more once I get this bloody eyelash out of my eye! ARRRRR.
And thankyou for takign the time to post and reply to us.


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## Onyxia (12 July 2010)

bay_beasty said:



			i was more annoyed that she called Following Jesus a cult, which made me very cross. but she has apologized for that.
		
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TBF,at the start it was.
Christianity started off as a small band of people saying something that most did not want to hear or accept.
Most of our texts were written hundreds of years after the death of Jesus at which point what he said had started to gain popularity.

As a RC,I still have issue with people following it blindly


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## baymareb (12 July 2010)

bay_beasty said:



			she is in america and said she was going to bed at like 8 am this morning so i figure her day will start as ours ends.
		
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Actually, I am in America as well.  I am in California where it is almost 2 in the afternoon - on the east coast, it is almost 5 pm.  So it is daytime everywhere here right now which is why I was surprised the poster had not returned.  S/he had gone to bed around midnight our time (if I recall correctly).


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## Bay_Beasty (12 July 2010)

anima said:



			TBF,at the start it was.
Christianity started off as a small band of people saying something that most did not want to hear or accept.
Most of our texts were written hundreds of years after the death of Jesus at which point what he said had started to gain popularity.

As a RC,I still have issue with people following it blindly 

Click to expand...

True you do make a good point, but I cannot condone someone comparing Parelli to Jesus. Although the crusades were a terrible thing done in the name of Jesus, and there are many other horrible things I could mention done in the name of Jesus, which are defiantly not what Jesus would of wanted at all, and there has been some truly wicked things done to horses in the name of Parelli..... hmmm,.............

well any way, I do not blindly follow Christ but I agree some do.


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## Bay_Beasty (12 July 2010)

baymareb said:



			Actually, I am in America as well.  I am in California where it is almost 2 in the afternoon - on the east coast, it is almost 5 pm.  So it is daytime everywhere here right now which is why I was surprised the poster had not returned.  S/he had gone to bed around midnight our time (if I recall correctly).  

Click to expand...

Lol, I am rubbish at Geography and time zones!!


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## Luci07 (13 July 2010)

If I was the OP, then I don't think I would bother to reply at all!. She/he made a geniune offer to explain certain elements of Parelli, has stated they do not follow it blindly and question parts of it, yet the threat has turned in an almighty bashing of Parelli and in turn, the OP.  The post did not start with "Parelli is king and everything else is wrong" but you would think that was the case judging by the responses!. There are some geniune questions and response intermingled which I would like to see answered but the bulk of the responses are uncalled for.

I don't practise/use Parelli, but would be geniunely interested to understand more - I think we can all agree that with horses you never stop learning but the way most people have jumped on this particular bandwagon, I think we might just have lost a chance to have some questions answered.


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## tongue~n~cheek (13 July 2010)

bay_beasty said:



			Don't worry tongue-in-cheek no harm done!
		
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Thanks

Sorry was stuck at work last nigh.  only a few min this morn to answer


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## tongue~n~cheek (13 July 2010)

Monsters said:



			Linda and her abuse to the one eyed horse, could you explain that and why she abused the horse like she did?
		
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No I can't.  sorry.  it is a difference of opinion.  I don't think it was abuse.  but then I deal with severe abuse on a daily baisis, both with horses and humans.  I would rather see those things stopped first.  I cant/wont defend the man/woman.  I am not thier keeper nor protector.

having said that, do I think it could have been done differently.  yes


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## tongue~n~cheek (13 July 2010)

DragonSlayer said:



			Ok, I'll ask a question.

Mr. P needed all these things, ropes, lines etc etc to get this horse to accept a bridle...

Now, my horse is NOT a stallion, but being a 17.2 he threw he weight around and injuries to humans happened...

Is it the intention of Parelli to get a 'quick fix now'....because although it took a few months, we got Bob (the monster 17.2) to accept his bridle, and 9 years down the line, he still does, with no looking back, ANd we can mess with his ears, he actually seems to enjoy it now, and drops his head for an 'ear-rub'....

I believe we earned that trust.....and the way Mr. P did it....makes me think that Parelli is wanting a quick way to get the horse to accept the bridle.

So why all the gadgets?

thanks!
		
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I know this was an honest question, so I don't want to put you off.  I wish I could answer it.  I can't.  my opinion is on the other thread.  

I cant say this.  applies to all disciplines.  depending on a persons skill level, on can "fix" a problem more quickly the more experienced they are.  some problems to some people, may take months to solve, but another person can fix it minutes.  this is no expanation regarding gadgets.  I have students that have struggled with something for a long time, but I fix it in a few min, and help them fix it for them selves during one lesson.  they still have to practice it or what ever.

example.  horse wont stay off owner.  I take the rope, horse crowds, with one correction, horse stays off me. not abuse, no gadgets whips anything.  but a horse know what you know.  if it knows intsantly that it cannot crowd you it wont.  the student is abiguous, so no clear messege, student gets constantly trampled.

on gadgets.  everything we use is a gadget.  halter, lead bridle, saddle, spurs, crop etc.  why do we use a halter and lead?  why use a saddle?  why use spurs?  honestly asnwer those question for your self.  as for why he used them I don't know.  only he can answer that. never seen it done before.  never seen any video.  great debate in our world about it too.


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## tongue~n~cheek (13 July 2010)

Caledonia said:



			I'd really like to know what your opinion as a horseman is on this video. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mwYAn4IH918

Click to expand...

I have to feed the horses and leave for work.  just saw it was a 10min video, so I will watch it later and let you know


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## tongue~n~cheek (13 July 2010)

SpottedCat said:



			Ok, my question is:

I understand the using the rope to get them to back up thing. I also understand that you start with a little wiggle and gradually make it 'stronger' until the horse gets the idea and backs up. What I do not understand is why you use a rope with a heavy metal swivel clip on it, which by the nature of the halters 'encouraged' by Parelli hangs a couple of inches below the head, and which inevitably hits the horse on the face as the rope wiggle gets stronger? Can you please explain why this is considered acceptable, given that most horse people (natural or otherwise) would be pretty unhappy if someone stood in front of them and hit a horse repeatedly, gradualy getting harder, under the 'chin' with a stick until it figured out what is wanted and moved backwards. I would like to know a) why Parelli advocates have an issue with giving a napping horse one smack with a stick on the backside and yet no qualms about repeatedly slamming a heavy metal clip into its face and b) why no-one involved with the group has come up with an alternative design and shown that it works better/as well but without the issue of the metal clip hitting the horse's head. 

Obviously this is highly effective because eventually, to avoid being hit by a clip round the head, the horse responds to the small wiggle, which is the result which Parelli advocates will tell you justify the means. But it does not sit well with me, not least because I have used the same technique, minus the clip, to teach horses to back up on voice command (which frankly, is what I want as rope wiggling is a lot of effort if you can just say 'back' instead  ).

Thanks!
		
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to be honest, it takes quite a bit of effort to get that clip to hit a horse in the head. the mjority of rope shaking you see the clip doesn't hit the head.  I agree with you.  if it did, I wouldn't do it. for someone wildly shaking the rope about, in order for the clip to make contact, as often as yu suggest, they likely will have a shoulder injury when done.  I personally pop a horse once with it after asking nicely, repeatedly to stay off me or back up. no reply...pop...I usually do not have to ask again.  the entire purpose of "all that rope wiggling" is to stay safe.  to get the horse off of you.  alot of people can't keep a horse off of them, and even with a quiet horse, it could be dangerous.  level one is about safety, from there things are refined.


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## tongue~n~cheek (13 July 2010)

I forgot to say.  in all honesty, if you know someone with a halter and lead that you describe.  borrow it.  hang it on a fence post and do some experiements with it. if not, go to tack store, one with one of those plastic horse heads, put a halter on it and wiggle away.  make sure it is at horse height so it is more scientificly correct.


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## HeatherJ (13 July 2010)

Caledonia said:



			I'd really like to know what your opinion as a horseman is on this video. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mwYAn4IH918

Click to expand...

This is terrible, you can see at the very beginning of the video that the horse is nervy around him, as soon as he goes to touch or go near her she shies away from him!


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## tongue~n~cheek (13 July 2010)

horses13 said:



			The user name 'Tongue in cheek' i may be wrong but it says to me this person is talking tongue in cheek

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wiki definition:
Tongue-in-cheek is a term used to refer to humor in which a statement, or an entire fictional work, is not meant to be taken seriously, but its sarcasm is subtle. 

I am here annonomously was thinking off the cuff at the time, not alot of thought put into it


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## tongue~n~cheek (13 July 2010)

fadedv said:



			Ok... I have an actual question about Parelli (which I have never practiced).  I understand that a lot of practitioners of Parelli learn the method from DVDs; apart from the potential to reach a wider audience, what are the benefits for a novice horse owner in using a DVD over having an actual instructor to help them?  As a Parelli teacher, do you have concerns about those who have learned from the DVD not using the methods 'properly'?  This is not meant to be inflammatory, it is a genuine question!
		
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first, i want to say I am not a proffesional parelli instructor, I do not speak for the parelli organization, and not affiliated with them other than as a student.

nothing compares to live instruction, with a good instructor.  I myself paid hoards of money, only to find out that my international dressage judge I was learning from nearly got me killed. mmy horse hated me, and only let me ride for 15min before she would have enough of his bull. so live instruction is not always what it is cracked up to be. this is true of ALL disciplines.

some people have NO access to live quality instruction, this fills that gap.

can people safely learn from dvd's.  yes and many do every day.

can some people get harmed from watching dvd's.  yes and many do everyday.

but I see alot worse going on every where around me.  I have seen great instructors have students that just don't get it.  I my self have had to explain things in a thousand ways to someone for them to get it.  both in tradition disciplenes and natural.  people are people. every method and discipline being successful is determined ultimately by the aptitude of the human.

as far as parelli dvd's, IMO, it has helped far more than it has harmed.


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## skint1 (13 July 2010)

Tongue and Cheek, Are you from FiSH?


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## rhino (13 July 2010)

Hi t~n~c, thanks for your input in this and 'the other' thread.

As an adult 'beginner' owner I looked into many different techniques and horsemanship methods, I have attended demonstrations and have a lot of friends involved with Parelli.

Leaving 'problem horses' aside, I don't really understand a lot of the groundwork techniques with Parelli. If I want my horse to back up I will put a flat hand on his chest and say 'back'. Similarly I can turn him on the forehand or quarters or move him forwards. He will confidently lead anywhere, over anything. 

I guess what I'm trying to say is that I don't really understand the rope wiggling, 'carrot stick' waving and the games themselves. Most of the time you have to move the horse around he will be in a field, stable, tied up for grooming or tacked up for excercise. Generally not in a rope halter, with a handy carrot stick and long rope. What do you do? You move the horse around by putting a hand on it and saying over/back etc. Obviously there will be horses who find this difficult but from what I have seen the Parelli 'games' seem to confuse horses more than anything. 

To progress through the levels you have to demonstrate you are doing everything the 'Parelli' way. It is not marketed as being able to pick and choose the bits you would use (I haven't found this with any of the other 'NH' trainers). It seems to be an all or nothing approach and I don't understand how this can be applied - blanket style - to all horses, when every horse has a different personality (horsenality??).

Sorry for the long rambling post but I haven't before had the opportunity to have my questions answered by someone like yourself, normally my enquiries are not welcomed by Parelli people.


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## yaddowshad (13 July 2010)

Parelli is a circus sold to people who have over horsed themselves and have not bothered to learn to ride a horse properly or have even the basics of good stable management.


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## fburton (13 July 2010)

Thanks for your most generous offer, tongue~n~cheek.

My questions are:

1) Is there really a strong tendency - as I have noticed - for Parelli students to assume that any problem behaviour that doesn't actually involve the horse running away indicates dominance? So, for example, Catwalk's evading the bridle being put on is dominant behaviour.

2) Why is that?

Thanks,
Francis


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## fburton (13 July 2010)

tongue~n~cheek said:



			I am here annonomously was thinking off the cuff at the time, not alot of thought put into it

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I would say you're doing pretty well!


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## pippinpie (13 July 2010)

LMR said:



			The reason Parelli is aimed at novices is because people with more experience with horses realise that the majority of the system is bull sh*t and is NOT natural horsemanship but a business making money. It does worry me that people are throwing there money at this system and learning incorrectly. I know there is not just one system for training horses but i fail to understand what this particular system is trying to achieve!
		
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Well thats were you are totally wrong and misinformed, I was introduced to PNH by an experience ex owner of a BHS riding school, I myself are BHS trained and have 40+ years experience, and there are many like us, PNH can't chose its students, so if you have problems with some of their attitudes you can't blame the program for them.
The bottom line is this program works, it will not work for you if you are not looking for something better in your relationship with your horses and it won't work if you dont have an open mind to think outside the box, if you are happy in your box then thats OK but please don't knock others who want more.


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## pippinpie (13 July 2010)

Originally Posted by Caledonia  
I'd really like to know what your opinion as a horseman is on this video. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mwYAn4IH918

I have just seen this video and I am upset as most of you but the last comment is spot on: 
This is a&#65279; very old clip, and I am not condoning what's going on but I can say that Parelli Natural Horsemanship is an ever evolving program, I'm sure Pat will agree that not every thing he did in the past is/was good, we all learn from our mistakes and I'm sure Pat Parelli is no exception


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## fburton (13 July 2010)

pippinpie said:



			The bottom line is this program works, it will not work for you if you are not looking for something better in your relationship with your horses and it won't work if you dont have an open mind to think outside the box, if you are happy in your box then thats OK but please don't knock others who want more.
		
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Hmm, isn't Parelli Natural Horsemanship just another box to be happy inside? Indeed, the program is _designed_ to be complete and self-contained, and - correct me if I'm wrong - students are actively discouraged from drawing on knowledge from other trainers. Of course, not all people who find Parelli useful follow that dictum; many pick and choose from a variety of sources, and that seems to work well for them too.

I guess I also find the suggestion that ditching everything to follow Parelli _necessarily_ will lead to an improvement in the relationship with your horse a little disturbing. Doesn't that imply a superiority to everything else?


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## PolarSkye (13 July 2010)

OK . . . please explain this (and this is a genuine question - I'm not making a "dig" . . . I am genuinely confused):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CyF2QqP29DU

I get that LP is trying to get the horse to back up (out of her personal space?), but . . . this doesn't look like a trusting relationship to me.  Perhaps I'm just horribly naive, but LP's body language seems unnecessarily aggressive and I see a distinct lack of patience and kindness here . . . and why does she hit the horse in the face . . . repeatedly (with her hand)?

Kali gets a smack or a suitable reprimand if he does something particularly rude (or potentially dangerous/hurtful for the humans around him . . . he is too big to be flinging himself about with no regard for the people/children standing around him), but just one and then we move on . . . the second he gives me the behaviour I want (not using me as a scratching post, for instance, or standing still while I sort his bridle out) I praise him lavishly.  I'm a strong advocate of pressure/release and rewarding good behaviour/a try . . . however, what I see in this video is pressure, pressure, pressure and very little release.

Can you shed any light?

Many thanks,

P


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## pippinpie (13 July 2010)

fburton said:



			Hmm, isn't Parelli Natural Horsemanship just another box to be happy inside? Indeed, the program is _designed_ to be complete and self-contained, and - correct me if I'm wrong - students are actively discouraged from drawing on knowledge from other trainers. Of course, not all people who find Parelli useful follow that dictum; many pick and choose from a variety of sources, and that seems to work well for them too.

I guess I also find the suggestion that ditching everything to follow Parelli _necessarily_ will lead to an improvement in the relationship with your horse a little disturbing. Doesn't that imply a superiority to everything else?
		
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Not sure how many of those comments are aimed at me but #1 There are many PNH students including myself who do look at all methods of working with horses, Participating in PNH does not require you to remove your brain in the process. #2 I have a life time of experiences to draw upon and I've not ditch them I have just enhanced them. For me life is a never ending learning curve, and if it suits me I don't care were I get my info from. 
If anything I wrote came across as me thinking I am superior, then that was not my intention, on the contrary actually.


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## Morgan123 (13 July 2010)

OK I've got some!! Thanks for this BTW it's great to have a good old debate about this stuff. I just want to say - i disagree with some theory of Parelli and with the extremes whihc are showcased but not necessarily with pressure/release principles and think that Parelli system COULD be used perfectly kindly (though it's often not, especially by the creators and highest-level users of the system, which is a bti of a fatal flaw), so I'm not being rude here at all and thank you for your input on all this stuff!!

OK - In reading up on Parelli i read this about the first few "games" (this was written by a parelli instructor i assume as it was an article in a magazin)

1) - friendly game. in the friendly game, you use the carrot stick to stroke the horse to give it a pleasurable feeling. when it stands still it is rewarded by you removing the stick stimulus.

I totally don't get that?! Surely if being stroked with a stick is so nice (which i can't see) then the removing it when they do the right thing is completely counter productive??!

2) "Using the friendly game, among others, the horse learns to stand still and trust the handler".

How is that the case? The horse is wearing a pressure halter (I know it's under another name, btu I've been repeatedly informed by Parelli people that you need it to do parelli as you don't get the same fine control in a normal headcollar, therefore it's basically working to create fine pressure and is therefore a pressure halter under another name), and the horse is learning that if it moves away from the carrot stick it gets pressure on its head. similarly when the friendly game is played with the rope flicking rather than the stroking stick, the horse stands becuase of the pressure on its head, not becuase it trusts its owner. maybe it learns the rope flicking is ok, but the initial thing that's happening is that it has to supress its fear, surely. otherwise you could play the games loose right form the start, if it really was trust. comments??

3) "using the moving away games (i think they're called the porcupine games among others) is typical of what mares do to teach their foals to move away from pressure."

I think that's really counter productive - cannot see how moving away is a 'game' for a horse and have certainly never seen a mare repeatedly asking ehr foal to move from left to right!!

4) Why does there have to be so much of the massively dominant movement of the hrose as in http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mwYAn4IH918 - this is very typical of parelli clips,. i never want my hroses to ever move away from me that quickly - if you compare it to herd behaviour in a field, it is most reminiscent of a subservient horse running away from e.g. its human or the water trough when it sees a very dominant and agressive horse approaching. I don't want my horses to see me as very dominant and agressive, i want them to see me as someone i can trust.

comments??

5) Linda parelli in partiuclar, but all the others too, do an awful lot of jerking nastily on their horse's halters. why adn what on earth are they trying to achieve? I would completely freak out if i saw someone do that to my horse wiht a thin rope halter - their heads are so sensitive!

thank you!!


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## pippinpie (13 July 2010)

As T n C is in USA the time line does not allow her to answer questions as they crop up, so I hope I'm not poking my nose in here. But I will give my slant on this post:


Morgan123 said:



			OK I've got some!! Thanks for this BTW it's great to have a good old debate about this stuff. I just want to say - i disagree with some theory of Parelli and with the extremes whihc are showcased but not necessarily with pressure/release principles and think that Parelli system COULD be used perfectly kindly (though it's often not, especially by the creators and highest-level users of the system, which is a bti of a fatal flaw), so I'm not being rude here at all and thank you for your input on all this stuff!!

OK - In reading up on Parelli i read this about the first few "games" (this was written by a parelli instructor i assume as it was an article in a magazin)

1) - friendly game. in the friendly game, you use the carrot stick to stroke the horse to give it a pleasurable feeling. when it stands still it is rewarded by you removing the stick stimulus.

I totally don't get that?! Surely if being stroked with a stick is so nice (which i can't see) then the removing it when they do the right thing is completely counter productive??!
		
Click to expand...

The CS is used like an extention of your own body/arm and the horse learns to accept it with no fear, CS are never used to hit the horse that would be counter productive, it is also used amongst other things to drive your horse like you would with you own arm/hand.
Horses are very aware of your body language and they soon learn what 'neutral' means, neutral is the release, so after you have got a try from your horse after asking him to do something it is the reward.




			2) "Using the friendly game, among others, the horse learns to stand still and trust the handler".

How is that the case? The horse is wearing a pressure halter (I know it's under another name, btu I've been repeatedly informed by Parelli people that you need it to do parelli as you don't get the same fine control in a normal headcollar, therefore it's basically working to create fine pressure and is therefore a pressure halter under another name), and the horse is learning that if it moves away from the carrot stick it gets pressure on its head. similarly when the friendly game is played with the rope flicking rather than the stroking stick, the horse stands becuase of the pressure on its head, not becuase it trusts its owner. maybe it learns the rope flicking is ok, but the initial thing that's happening is that it has to supress its fear, surely. otherwise you could play the games loose right form the start, if it really was trust. comments??
		
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The rope halter is the best bit of equipment I have ever used, it is greatly misunderstood, fitted correctly it is both gentle and effective, gentle when used in knowlegable hands and effective when more control is needed.
Horses soon learn that the that if they resist it will put as much pressure as they are resisting back on them, then when they relax they get imediate release, they become more polite and attentive. 95% of what I do with my horses is done with no pressure at all and only 5% will be with slight pressure as they have respect without fear for it.
You really need to understand the reasoning behind the prey animal instinct to understand why horses become fearful and so many times horses are punished and pushed through thressholds that we may not even have noticed, how would you like to be standing on the edge of lets say a diving board worried about jumping in and someone come up behind you and gives you a push, how would you feel? would you trust that person again?




			3) "using the moving away games (i think they're called the porcupine games among others) is typical of what mares do to teach their foals to move away from pressure."

I think that's really counter productive - cannot see how moving away is a 'game' for a horse and have certainly never seen a mare repeatedly asking ehr foal to move from left to right!!
		
Click to expand...

For safety and respect I horse must learn not to crowd on top of you, and the driving game is used to move the horse away from you in much the same way as horse do themselves.



			4) Why does there have to be so much of the massively dominant movement of the horse as in http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mwYAn4IH918 - this is very typical of parelli clips,. i never want my horses to ever move away from me that quickly - if you compare it to herd behaviour in a field, it is most reminiscent of a subservient horse running away from e.g. its human or the water trough when it sees a very dominant and aggressive horse approaching. I don't want my horses to see me as very dominant and aggressive, i want them to see me as someone i can trust.

comments??
		
Click to expand...

No comment I didn't like it either!




			5) Linda parelli in partiuclar, but all the others too, do an awful lot of jerking nastily on their horse's halters. why adn what on earth are they trying to achieve? I would completely freak out if i saw someone do that to my horse wiht a thin rope halter - their heads are so sensitive!

thank you!!
		
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I too found that short clip on YouTube unsettling, but I have seen the much longer unedited version, although hard to watch even for me I understand what she was trying to do, and she did achieve it by the way, she wanted the horse which beforehand was becoming dangerous to its handler and the others that were in its near vicinity, the horse got distracted to the point were humans did not even exist, so Linda took over and tried to gain its attention and some recognition that she was even there, I could go on but as I would have done it differently I won't defend it further, also that was an old video and I'm sure that Linda would now do things better.

It can have such great rewards, even little kids can do it : 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LdTFLSONfHY&feature=related
What a relationship. full of love and trust.


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## Morgan123 (13 July 2010)

pippinpie said:



			The CS is used like an extention of your own body/arm and the horse learns to accept it with no fear, CS are never used to hit the horse that would be counter productive, it is also used amongst other things to drive your horse like you would with you own arm/hand.
Horses are very aware of your body language and they soon learn what 'neutral' means, neutral is the release, so after you have got a try from your horse after asking him to do something it is the reward.


The rope halter is the best bit of equipment I have ever used, it is greatly misunderstood, fitted correctly it is both gentle and effective, gentle when used in knowlegable hands and effective when more control is needed.
Horses soon learn that the that if they resist it will put as much pressure as they are resisting back on them, then when they relax they get imediate release, they become more polite and attentive. 95% of what I do with my horses is done with no pressure at all and only 5% will be with slight pressure as they have respect without fear for it.
You really need to understand the reasoning behind the prey animal instinct to understand why horses become fearful and so many times horses are punished and pushed through thressholds that we may not even have noticed, how would you like to be standing on the edge of lets say a diving board worried about jumping in and someone come up behind you and gives you a push, how would you feel? would you trust that person again?
For safety and respect I horse must learn not to crowd on top of you, and the driving game is used to move the horse away from you in much the same way as horse do themselves.

No comment I didn't like it either!
I too found that short clip on YouTube unsettling, but I have seen the much longer unedited version, although hard to watch even for me I understand what she was trying to do, and she did achieve it by the way, she wanted the horse which beforehand was becoming dangerous to its handler and the others that were in its near vicinity, the horse got distracted to the point were humans did not even exist, so Linda took over and tried to gain its attention and some recognition that she was even there, I could go on but as I would have done it differently I won't defend it further, also that was an old video and I'm sure that Linda would now do things better.

It can have such great rewards, even little kids can do it : 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LdTFLSONfHY&feature=related
What a relationship. full of love and trust.
		
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OK thansk. However i totally disagree with a lot of thigns there. would you mind elaborating?

1) you missed my point - re-check what the parelli person wrote in my quote. The theory is compltely at odds wiht what it's saying - it's saying to remove a "reward" when the horse does what you want.

2) thansk - believe me i've done an awful lot of research and understand prey animal and fear behaviour, but pressure and release is actually incredibly at odds with that in some ways. I agree that using minimal pressure (as you say with the pressure halter) is great partly BECAUSE the horse is a prey animal, however the problem i'm saying here (and again please re-read what i wrote as my point was missed) - if the horse is, say, scared of the rope being flicked at it, it only ends up standing still becuase of pressure on its head (i.e. supression) not becuase of any genuine desensitisation. the desensitisation does happen, but it is secondary to the pressure, which is absolutely what you would NOT want given that this is a prey animal. my point was that the pressure halter SHOULD be completely unecessary if the exercise truly achieved what it's meant to, in this instance.

3) Of course a horse should never crowd you and must learn to respect space, but there's a complete difference between a horse respecting your space and a horse running away in a fearful and subservient manner, whihc is what i see again and again in these parelli clips!!  

4) Yeh - i am sure there are great examples of parleli being used kindly by nice people, becuase if you're acting in a pleasant and kind way to your horse and not endlessly showing it you're the boss in a dominant agressive way, then you can achieve great things NO MATTER WHICH SCHOOL OF THOUGHT YOU USE. however, i think it says a lot that the people who "invented" (well, market) the system are the ones who seem to misuse it the most and are constantly under fire for abuse?! No?

Any light shed on the above appreciated. Thanks!


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## mystiandsunny (13 July 2010)

Could a Parelli person explain this please? http://fuglyblog.com/   today's entry - the video.


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## Cedars (13 July 2010)

Am i the only person who cant see the movie, only a green screen?


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## pippinpie (13 July 2010)

Morgan123 said:



			OK thansk. However i totally disagree with a lot of thigns there. would you mind elaborating?

1) you missed my point - re-check what the parelli person wrote in my quote. The theory is compltely at odds wiht what it's saying - it's saying to remove a "reward" when the horse does what you want.
		
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Not quite sure in what tense you referring to reward, sorry. But I take it that you might mean this: eg. I ask my horse to do something: move his hind 1/4's over, so I put pressure on him in my body language (up my energy) and give him the 'aids' to move, I keep up that pressure until he responds, (if he is just learning) I would release that pressure and go into a relaxed posture (neutral) thus taking away the pressure and giving him the release/reward at the first moment that he made an effort to understand my command. when the horse understand what is being asked hopefully the next time you ask he responds more rapidly and with more effort, hence less pressure to the point were he will be so tuned in he is waiting for you to ask for something!




			2) thansk - believe me i've done an awful lot of research and understand prey animal and fear behaviour, but pressure and release is actually incredibly at odds with that in some ways. I agree that using minimal pressure (as you say with the pressure halter) is great partly BECAUSE the horse is a prey animal, however the problem i'm saying here (and again please re-read what i wrote as my point was missed) - if the horse is, say, scared of the rope being flicked at it, it only ends up standing still becuase of pressure on its head (i.e. supression) not becuase of any genuine desensitisation. the desensitisation does happen, but it is secondary to the pressure, which is absolutely what you would NOT want given that this is a prey animal. my point was that the pressure halter SHOULD be completely unecessary if the exercise truly achieved what it's meant to, in this instance.!
		
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I can only recant my own experiences, and although I now only have a few horses I only have time to practice on 3, 2 adults and a yearling. all have good manners but have improved greatly since I started PNH, I find that the biggest problem relating to Prey / predator is the trust issue, and the more I understood and read their behaviour the more I could build that trust, I haven't had to use undue pressure on mine, if they get scared it comes either in the form of stuck dumb 'what the hell is that' and freeze in which case I would wait, give him time to think it over, mostly it passes very quickly but if it turn out to be the other scared 'I'm out of here' type then I would act as soon as possible and access what to do, if I were in a safe place I would allow some drift and then let the horse face what ever he found so scary, only then can he work out for himself if it really is going to kill him.
You ask that if a horse is scared of having a rope thrown at it and pulls back, then obviously throwing the rope was to much pressure and you need to drop that pressure to something he can accept and build on that to the point were rope throwing holds no fear. as for the pressure on the head when he pulls back that will release the moment he decides to stop resisting, he decides when he gets that reward, horses are very fast learners and a normal not to mixed up abused horse will twig on very fast about pressure and how to get release, pressure can be as little as just looking him in the eyes when you have your energy up in your body. and some introverted horses find looking you in the eye very difficult just like introverted people.
I have one very easy horse who helped me so much when I was learning these 'new' techniques, he was so accepting of my accidentally bonking him on the head with the rope, but because he read MY intentions he knew I wasn't trying to harm him, bless him.!




			3) Of course a horse should never crowd you and must learn to respect space, but there's a complete difference between a horse respecting your space and a horse running away in a fearful and subservient manner, whihc is what i see again and again in these parelli clips!!!
		
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I can't comment as I don't know what you have seen. 




			4) Yeh - i am sure there are great examples of parleli being used kindly by nice people, becuase if you're acting in a pleasant and kind way to your horse and not endlessly showing it you're the boss in a dominant agressive way, then you can achieve great things NO MATTER WHICH SCHOOL OF THOUGHT YOU USE. however, i think it says a lot that the people who "invented" (well, market) the system are the ones who seem to misuse it the most and are constantly under fire for abuse?! No?
		
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I can't comment on other peoples behaviour and Parelli can't choose who use/misuse their methods, all I know is it works for me and I only use methods I feel are right for me and my horses, Not everything about PNH is 100% to my liking but then I don't have to use that then.
I do hope I have covered most of you queries, this takes so long to do I get lost. : )!




			Any light shed on the above appreciated. Thanks
		
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## Natch (13 July 2010)

yaddowshad said:



			Parelli is a circus sold to people who have over horsed themselves and have not bothered to learn to ride a horse properly or have even the basics of good stable management.
		
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HHO is a playground where people who don't care about horses bludgeon them into submission.

Generalisations like that really don't get anyone anywhere.


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## narkymare (13 July 2010)

as a novice reading and trying to learn - i ve watched latest parelli and wouldnt want my horse tied up - i love him, im on montys forum  and respect him much more - i do not think he would hurt a horse to prove his point  - as a total novice i could not trust these parellis xxx


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## Natch (13 July 2010)

anima said:



			OK,here we go.

3)Following on 
 Why is the required equipment so damn expensive?

Onto equipment-
http://shop.parellinaturalhorsetraining.com/product.jsf?catId=109
that 4 piece  kit costs £120.28.
...
So to recap- PP kit- £120.
Local tack shop-£20.
Now I am sure there are instructors out there with a brain who do advise you to borrow a DVD/use current common bits and bobs to start with,but all the ones I have come into contact with insist ONLY the branded equipemtn will do,and of course,it can only be bought direct(unless you stalk Ebay for someone chucking it out).
Once again,to me this smacks of money grabbing not "spreading the good word" while covering costs.
		
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I use similar equipment, and have tried it with both kinds, so can speak for myself and my grounsdskills methods in reply to this, if its any use.

12ft rope. What can I say apart from it handles differently? Its personal preferance again - I have no doubt a lunge line and whip would work, and see no reason people starting out can't use one. My reasons for using the 12ft lines are that when I use a lunge line, which is a lot lighter, it doesn't move the same way. I was also taught to allow the horse some drift, i.e. the rope to feed through your hands, not so easy with my lunge line which has handy stops to prevent this exact same thing. Incidentally, my 12ft rope is attached like this:

http://www.naturalhorsesupply.com/attachlead.htm

to avoid any metal clip smacking the horse in the face.

ETA: My 12 and 22ft lines were the main thing I spent my student loan on that year!  They didn't come from Parelli, but they weren't much cheaper than theirs. However they have lasted really well, including surviving when some idiot left it in a pool of horse pee for a week when she borrowed it. 

I agree with you that its a lot of money to spend on the equipment, and people could easily suffice with cheaper versions. none of mine is parelli branded, I found it all cheaper elsewhere. Its sad to hear of parelli instructors who won't teach you unless you have the branded kit  On the whole though, its generally the case that as people get into a new thing, they want to use and buy all the brand new, right equipment. Materialistic, yes, but true.

As for the cost of the DVDs, well yes it is a lot of money, but it includes a fair heft of material. my main objection to the retail of all the parelli stuff is that there are people who will buy the DVDs and the starter pack and think they are the next, well, pat parelli  you really can't substitute face to face lessons with DVDs, in my opinion, not when you're working with horses.


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## Hollycat (13 July 2010)

I have only a few friends who are really into Parelli/natural horsemanship so I don't know if this is representative of Parelli or not.  My question is - why is there no verbal communication with the horse?  Maybe its just me being a chatty person but I find voice commands very useful, particularly when progressing something taught inhand to being taught under saddle under saddle - e.g teaching a youngster the command for trot on the lunge verbally can then be effectively used when asking for trot under saddle.


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## Snickers (13 July 2010)

The thing I don't understand about Parelli is it's purpose... I've seen it used on 'problem' horses with no effect, and people who do Parelli don't seem to be in the same league, competition wise, as the traditional trainers... So it's not really about the riding, is it about having a polite horse?


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## tongue~n~cheek (14 July 2010)

First of all pleas keep in mind I am only one person and am having a hard time keeping up with you.  I am barely on page 3.  could someone PLEASE 
PM me how to get more posts on a page?  Please????

I went to user CP and couldn't find it.


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## tongue~n~cheek (14 July 2010)

cronkmooar said:



			OK - this is not posted at anyone in particular - just in case anyone thinks they are being accused of being snarky 

If you have read the other thread, and after millions of pages it is easy to forget everthing that was posted, the OP does come accross as being a sensible individual.

I think this lady (appologies if I have this wrong) is in fact a genuine poster, that quite clearly does have a mind of her own, and has made it abundantly clear what she does and does not agree with on the other thread.

I think her intention with this thread was to answer genuine questions that people might have about Parelli/Natural Horsemanship or what ever else you want to call it.

My personal opinion (for what it is worth) is that it is some of the comments that have so far bee posted are unnessesary 

I have no interest in parelli nor have I practised it and I am not aware that I am a member of any brainwashing cults  but I do have manners and I think some of this thread is a bit rude to the OP
		
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I am going out on a limb here and taking a guess that I am the OP?  is that 'original poster"?  thank you cronk, yes I am honest and legitimate, and honestly am opening up myself to question, even though I know many if not most hate what I stand for.  I only don't want to talk about stonleigh here because I posted my opinion there and I have a family and horses that I am giving up time for to do this, so it is a limited time offer, and i will do my best to answer as many ligitemate questions that I can.  if you are afraid you can pm me too.  a few already have.

please no loaded questions.  if it is just to get me to say something so you can attack me, please don't.  I dont mind if no one agrees with me, I do not seek agreement.  only to answer your questions as honestly as I can, with my opinions and understanding of natural horsemanship, particularly parelli.  I cannot answer specifically on behalf of "why' pat or linda did "xyz".  I can answer as to theory as I understand it.  I do NOT blindly follow Pat and Linda, I do it because it works for me and those I know.  I am NOT happy about stonleigh for MANY reasons.  I am honestly very sad at the moment, for equus.

now to answer questions.  saving videos for the end.  I haven't read past page 3. cept for this.


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## tongue~n~cheek (14 July 2010)

I have yet to read all the posts, not even close.  i am trying to find where I left off and came accross something disturbing and I have a request and and honest one.  I am doing this as an experiment, if it was possible, as I have argued for 10yrs, that approach is everything.  I all to often, as it was done to me pre parelli, had naturalists (not exclusive to PNH) be condescending to traditionalist.  IF you are going to post here as a parelli person, as a favor to another parelli person (me) PLEASE don't tell others that they are wrong, need a better relationship or what ever.  If they want to bash me, so be it.  If they want to bash parelli, well, I am in thier world, not the other way around.  I don't expect anyone here to like or agree with me.  of course I would prefer not to be bashed, who wouldn't, but I only want to see if it is possible to have dialogue that is not abusive, threatening, berating, belittling and the like.  please see that.  I am a big girl (yes) and my knickers are on tight.  I appreciat support of me/for me, but don't put traditionalist down.  PLEASE.


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## tongue~n~cheek (14 July 2010)

kerilli said:



			Okay, i have a genuine question. I've been to a 2-day Parelli demo and I'm open-minded.

When the horses are being worked at liberty (I'm thinking particularly of the 2 Friesians that were worked by the lady in the electric wheelchair) why do they have their ears back all the time they are working around her, with their tails swishing... why do they look so angry all the time?  I realise they're staying near her of their own volition, but I cannot work out why they do not work like relaxed, happy, ears-forward horses.
Absolutely genuine question.
Fwiw I've been around horses for my entire life and I like to think that I'm good at reading equine body language and mood by now - I've had a lot of horses to teach me it over the years.
Thankyou.
		
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to be honest I have wondered this my self.  i asked years ago and don't exactly remember the answer and since my horses don't do that, I didnt' think of it again.  I have heard people say things like spunk, and i don't think I can quite get on board with that.  I have heard someone say, about "listening" and i definately am not on board with that.  My best "guess" is more of a game.  when horses "play" it is mock for the fight.  while it is play, make no bones about the fact it is prep for dominance.  I believe this instinct is stronger in some horse than others.  so my guess is since at liberty horses seem more likely to be more like a 'horse' (how mine are anyways) they see it as a more natural way of being them selves, and they are now playing with you, rather than doing you bidding.  so when playing with another horse, you must protect your "goods"  ears, eyes, legs.  so I think they are more protecting thier ears.  when in a closer proximity to the human, as in my "watching" I have noticed it is more pronounced the closer they are to the human.  farther away, ears are safe and come forward. I also believe they may be a teeny bit ticked, that since now we are 'playing" they may feel  a little like
"well how come you can tag me, but I can't tag you" as they would be able to do with an equine buddy.

another thing is that I noticed that alot more in the older days, particularly the first levels packs.  since the new red and blue put ALOT more focus on the relationship, and wanted to steer away from being 'task masters" things impoved.  and now with the newest changes to the auditions, "expression" is part of your score.  you are marked down if your horse has a sour face

and the lady you are speaking of is Silka (sp?) and I give her alot of credit for what she has accomplished on her own, and I am happy for her, that even though god has taken away her legs, he did not take away her horses, and she has found something that she has found a great deal of success in.

but my official answer is:
I have no friggin idea mine dont do that.  I can certainly see how anyone would see a pissed off horse.  and for all I know, they are


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## tongue~n~cheek (14 July 2010)

LMuirEDT said:



			Agree.  I have a v basic genuine question, what is Parelli?  I have my own thoughts and personally have never got involved with it but no one has ever actually explained to me what it is and what purpose it has.
		
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Yikes, that is a big question.  I can give you the schpeel, or my take on it.  I assume you have heard the schpeel, and every other condescending remark in reply to your question.  so here is my take on it.

parelli is natural horsemanship.  natural horsemanhip is working within the nature of the horse.  this includes the predator prey theory, the alpha pecking order theory, a middle of the road (no pun intended with the extreme example set by pat this weekend) basically as nice as possible, but as firm as requried to get your point across.

it teaches (but apparently doesn't follow) to take the time it takes and dont act like a predator.  there is an end result to each task technique, that has levels of skill, like dressage.  (please I am NOT comparing it to dressage)basically a piaffe starts it level1.  you are already prepping the horse for working from the hind end into the bridle, as the years and strength of the horse and rider progress a simple working trot becomes a piaffe, with more power in the back, met by the front, elevates the middle.

so just as in dressage, something you see in parelli level one, is a prep for something in level4.  as an example, (killing two questions with one answer i think) leading the horse by the tail is prep for asking a horse to back out of a trailer.  with the premis of teach it before you need it.

so just like that task, most tasks in the parelli have practicle everyday uses.  and level one is the beginning.  before you tie a horse to a post, it should be able to give to the halter when YOU put pressure on it and come forward.  before you get tossed off a cliff while ridding your horse on trail, if he shies at something (not 100% avoidable with any program), it should be able to side pass away from your finger on the ground.  I wouldnt want to find out fumbling down a hill, face in the dirt, bum in the air, that my horse doesn't yeild from leg pressure.

so the seven games, the basis of the program are
friendly~don't be afraid of this spooky thing
porcupine~yield to steady pressure (finger/leg) MOVE
driving~yield from rythmic pressure, no touch, stay out of my space
circling~lunging learning to be responsible/effective at a distance
squeeze~go onto, over, under between something scary, prep for a trailer, crossing white paint on the pavement, going in puddles, etc,  not circus performance.
yo-yo~back and forth, I believe you all call it 'waggle waggle thump thump"
is prep for transitions, & for staying safe.  goal is straigtness.

so parelli is a collection of techniques to help you learn how to be safe, and progress toward doing everyday normal things with your horse.

it is in a logical sequence from the easiest to the hardest, but that doesn't make it simple.  it teaches about timing, that pressure motivates, and the release is what teaches, so timing is VERY important.  the longer you do it, the better your timing is, and the better you do with horses. naturally people take time to gain the "gross motor skills" and progress to "fine motor skils" just like in tradition riding.  so don't be surprised that not all students look great, it takes a while to make it look "good".  just like with anything else.

if you see a NH'er, and they look like they are fumbling, they are struggling thru the awkward learning phase, and hopefully will get it together soon.

many get trapped in the need to be perfect in level1 and don't progress because they are holding themselves back.

hope that is what you were looking for.


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## tongue~n~cheek (14 July 2010)

brighteyes said:



			That was MY question - they always look really cross and tetchy, Ears back and tail swishing and a definite glint in their eyes which I read as 'Oh for Goodness' sake, go away and leave me alone.  I'm sick of this!'
		
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despite recent display, we the students are not taught, and to my knowlege don't on thier own either, force the horses to do things. 

some horses are tortured wiht the 7 games as people do not, move on and put them to practical use.  the horse see's not point to endless sideways etc, and thus.....sour face!


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## tongue~n~cheek (14 July 2010)

JunoXV said:



			I do have a genuine question.
A bit of background first.  I've been around horses for 46 years now and do like to investigate something before I either accept or dismiss it.  Thus I studied PNH for a while and practiced on one of my horses.
It appears to me that 'timing' of the pressure release is critical and that this should be at the slightest sign of the horse doing as asked (getting the idea).
Recognition of the slightest sign requires (I believe) considerable experience around horses to gain the ability to instantly read their body language.

So my question - if a very key element of successfully using PNH requires a deep understanding of horse body language, why is it marketed at novices?
Surely a novice does not have the ability to react fast enough to small changes in body language and therefore is highly likely to confuse the horse and create stress.

My gut feel after studying PNH for a while was experienced horse peeps dont need it and novices dont have the knowledge to use it safely (horse not human safety).
		
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yes timing is critical, in both NH and traditional. reading a horse is critical in both as well.  in my experience, based on the results I see people getting, not just my own, is that it can be done and is being done.

yes, timing is not great on a newbie, but then again, the tasks are safety oriented.  the fact of the matter is, they are not forcing people to buy it.  they are showing what is possible.  at some point people have to realize that they are just not THAT good, to snake charm THAT many people.  and there are plenty of people around to make sure that they don't.  

people who may infact be novices, are likely there as they already have a horse, and already are seeking help that they have otherwise not been able to find.  the majority of people learn alot.  I see many traditional trainers milking novice owners as well, it is not exclusive to parelli, if you believe that is what he is doing.  I didnt' use to, now I question.  keep in mind I have been doing parelli for 10yrs.  I am a L4 student, near complete the program.  

nothing compares to live instruction, but in the absence of quality live instruction, I will take parelli dvd's everyday of the week and twice on sunday


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## Chavhorse (14 July 2010)

Hollycat said:



			I have only a few friends who are really into Parelli/natural horsemanship so I don't know if this is representative of Parelli or not.  My question is - why is there no verbal communication with the horse?  Maybe its just me being a chatty person but I find voice commands very useful, particularly when progressing something taught inhand to being taught under saddle under saddle - e.g teaching a youngster the command for trot on the lunge verbally can then be effectively used when asking for trot under saddle.
		
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Don't think this is Just a  Parelli thing.  My horse is with a Western trainer who uses a mixed bag of NH and common sense and he only uses verbal communication to either chastise "ehhhh" or praise "oh good so Vardi Man".

Like you I am a very chatty person and have made a conscious effort in the last few months to shut up a bit! and to be honest Vardi does seem to be responding to me a lot better when I am working him if I am quiet and when he does something well just give him the "good so Vardi Man" you actually feel him swell with pride beneath you....strange.


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## tongue~n~cheek (14 July 2010)

Kaylum said:



			So are you saying that what people have seen with their own eyes is not to be believed.  As said I went to one of the clinics a few years ago and was not impressed only stayed for one day or is there something else we are missing?  Should we just have stayed and watched something we didnt like or felt uncomfortable with.
		
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absolutely not.  if you see something you don't like, walk away.  me personally I watch, as I learn something from everyone, even if it is what NOT to do.  in the instance of abuse, I don't walk away, I stay to make sure the horse is ok, or call athorities.  I don't run from abuse, I run it over.

having said that, abuse is a fine line, surrounded by alot of gray. what one person may see, another may not. while I dont' like what pat did, and am deeply troubled by it.  i have a much bigger fish to fry, and am shocked that few people want to help save horses lives who are tortured into broken legs and left to suffer for hours before a bullet goes in their heads all for the entertainment of a bunch of torture seeking hillbillies, but find a gum line and leision the most horrible thing on the planet.

I prefer, for myself, to start at the top and work my way down.


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## tongue~n~cheek (14 July 2010)

shysmum said:



			God, OP I agree that your post is soooooo patronising. In case you didn't read it in the original thread, I have reported your idols to the animal welfare authorities in the UK. Let's see what happens. 

Abuse is abuse -  there is NO justification to train a horse with fear or pain - NEVER. Don't you think this is the time to keep quiet and not try and push parelli ? As far as I can see, the vast majority of us, in the UK and USA are somewhat sickened by  their methods - and they are stupid enough to include much of this footage in their "training videos for novices".

My stomach churns at the thought of what goes on behind the scenes. Both with the "idols" and with novices trying to learn from said videos.
		
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I am sorry you feel I am patronizing you, and I am glad you reported them.  you stood by your convictions and did not walk away.
and I agree, no justification to use fear or pain, EVER!


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## tongue~n~cheek (14 July 2010)

Monsters said:



			Linda and her abuse to the one eyed horse, could you explain that and why she abused the horse like she did?
		
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first of all, I prefer to anser questions that are not accusatory, but i understand and respect your position.  It would be iesier for me to answer why she may have used a specific technique, or carried on as long as she did. which I still can't answer, I am not her. I don't feel this is abuse, in comparison to my white whale, "wild horse racing".  

does it make it right? no.  
does it make your opinion wrong? no
do I think she woud do it differently today (that was like 7yrs ago) yes.

listen, in my honest of honest answers.  I have in the past done things to horses, out of ignorance, that I am ashamed of.  and all I can say, is thank god there were no cameras and the internet. and even though I became quite successful in traditional disciplines pre-parelli, and loved it dearly, I wish I had parelli before then.  I would be a much different horseperson, and achieved far more of my dreams in my youth, rather crying over lost years in my old age.


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## tongue~n~cheek (14 July 2010)

So I have mentioned I have my own white whale.  wild horse racing.  in particular the oklahoma prison rodeo.  before I coment on a video, why don't some of you take a look at this, no matter how bad you cry, you must watch to the end. to see thier solution to thier violence.  this has been going on every year for 69yrs, unchallenged, and sponsored by some of the nations top products.  this video and the first petition have gotten this years "performance" put on hold.  until things die down I assume.
I guess because the mustang is a nuisance to cattle farmers this is completely justified, and there is a profesional league of cowboys who do this on tour!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RM1I8AnhGWY

If you can find the keyboard after puking, and say you can't stand abuse, then please find it in your heart to sign this petition.  it isn't my petition, but I do care for all horses deeply.


it has nothing to do with parelli or traditions. I would wish this on my worst enemy.

http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/endwildhorseracing/signatures

no comments needed either way.  if you agree, sign petition, if not, then don't.  its a great way to show up parellil students too, as few have signed.

i am off to bed, catch you on the flip side


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## baymareb (14 July 2010)

Hi t~i~c.  I don't want to badger you because I do appreciate you taking the time to post this thread.  I posed a question concerning some aspects of the loading in the trailer video early on in this thread and just want to let you know it's there.  I know it's a lot to wade through with all these posts but I really do honestly want your input on my observations.  So if you get a chance to find my post, I'd be grateful for a reply.  Thanks.


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## tongue~n~cheek (14 July 2010)

baymareb said:



			I did read the entirety of the other thread and agree this poster seems sincere in his or her desire to contribute.  Which is why I did post an honest question on this thread and I keep checking it to see if there will be an answer.  So far I've been disappointed.
		
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thank you for seeing me for who I am.  truley, thank you.

now! I am only one woman, and I am going as fast as I can. my eyes are bugged out, and my horse aren't fed, but I am going to watch this 10min video for you, before I literally crash.  please also understand I have given up time with my family and  horses, and I don't type fast. I am still in my ployester work clothes and for god sakes, I still have my bra on! and at my age, this victoria secret defcon 5 push up looses all apeal some where around 5 oclock that was almost 6rs ago

I am in my jamies, got my second wind and am ready to go,

Ok, so I watched the trailer loading video.  first of all, that was close to 20yrs ago, if not older, and NOTHING, not ONE word or technique in that video is what is taught today.  if it was, I would run for the hills, and his program would not be this successful.  period.  there are plenty of wonderful trailer loading videos by students that put that video to SHAME.

now as for the video it self.  that is the first time I have ever seen it, kudo's to who ever dug that one up.  I have never heard him talk about 'acting like a predator" nor any instructors nor students.  that was WAY too  much constant pressure, not enough retreat, not enough friendly, and not recognising much smaller "tries'.  this mare was not confident in any manner, and it got worse.  the video did not end with the horse in the trailer, so I asume there is more that is missing to the footage, but honestly it doesn't matter to me, i saw what I  needed to see.  I assure you that not only is todays program not even on the same PLANET as that video, niether were the first two, or I never would have listened to a word he said.  he has learned a great deal since then, imeasurable in my book.

having said that, I have seen far far worse in the name of trailer loading.  whiping with dressage whips, lunge whips, hog tying, winches, tranquilizers, and tag teams that put football line backers to shame. so compared to those, I would take this.  but I would have to be on another planet first.

which is why I am so sad that this last weekend happened. I will say it again.  I defend the program, but not the man.


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## tongue~n~cheek (14 July 2010)

tongue~n~cheek said:



			So I have mentioned I have my own white whale.  wild horse racing.  in particular the oklahoma prison rodeo.  before I coment on a video, why don't some of you take a look at this, no matter how bad you cry, you must watch to the end. to see thier solution to thier violence.  this has been going on every year for 69yrs, unchallenged, and sponsored by some of the nations top products.  this video and the first petition have gotten this years "performance" put on hold.  until things die down I assume.
I guess because the mustang is a nuisance to cattle farmers this is completely justified, and there is a profesional league of cowboys who do this on tour!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RM1I8AnhGWY

If you can find the keyboard after puking, and say you can't stand abuse, then please find it in your heart to sign this petition.  it isn't my petition, but I do care for all horses deeply.


it has nothing to do with parelli or traditions. I would wish this on my worst enemy.

http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/endwildhorseracing/signatures

no comments needed either way.  if you agree, sign petition, if not, then don't.  its a great way to show up parellil students too, as few have signed.

i am off to bed, catch you on the flip side

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ok, i am tired, that was suppose to be 'wouldn't wish this on my worst enemy"


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## tongue~n~cheek (14 July 2010)

baymareb said:



			Hi t~i~c.  I don't want to badger you because I do appreciate you taking the time to post this thread.  I posed a question concerning some aspects of the loading in the trailer video early on in this thread and just want to let you know it's there.  I know it's a lot to wade through with all these posts but I really do honestly want your input on my observations.  So if you get a chance to find my post, I'd be grateful for a reply.  Thanks.  

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sorry, you were typing this while i was watching it


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## tongue~n~cheek (14 July 2010)

bay_beasty said:



			she is in america and said she was going to bed at like 8 am this morning so i figure her day will start as ours ends. she must be west coast. i am sure she will reply. I have so many questions to ask her but most of these have already be put forward so i will just watch and see how she replies to the ones already put. I dont like Parelli but I am interested in it as it clearly makes a huge amount of money (its downfall IMO) and some people obviously think it is good. Like i have said before, the idea parelli puts across is a good one, but only on paper, but in practice i just dont see how it works and it reminds me of how communism was in russia under Stalins rule. that is really how I see it and I am sorry if the offends people. But to each their own, i was more annoyed that she called Following Jesus a cult, which made me very cross. but she has apologized for that.
		
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yes I am a 'yank", this is what you call us? and I am on the westish coast.

I assure you all, I am not in a cult.  I am not here to recruit you, or get you to agree with me. I have a full head of hair, and while i frequently wear birkenstocks, I do not wear a white robe and hang out at the airport

I have a calculator, and the figures are staggering. BUT, they did for years put forth tremendous amounts of money to go on tour, at a huge finacial risk to themselves, sacrificing a quiet ranch life, and didn't charge a dime.  when they tried, last year I think, to charge $200, I didn't go. along with alot of other people.  it was the first hint of things to come.  I have no problem paying $20month for my member ship.  I get a dvd with more things to learn from, and it helps cover the cost of constant filming, as they never know what will turn out to be a great segment, that a student doesn't mind having thier fat yankee A$$ on display.  if I were there and filmed, i don't care if they got my horse to wash and fold my laundry, i would not allow myself to be viewed by millions.  the camera adds like 100lbs. anyways, no matter how in the "hole" they may have been, they have more than made up for it by now.  there are alot of things to consider on over head for them I am sure.  planing, filming, editing, designing, packaging, marketing, and distribution, just on their educational materials alone. and when you do this, you have to put alot of money out for making things in bulk.  now you have flooring to consider.  I am sure at some point they had enormeous loans, and sold portions of thier company as well to finance.  now they have a whole mess of employees, and something has to pay for it.  in the last two years, they have invented more than a few "somethings".  prior to that, I had no qualms about money with them.  they provide superior products and unmatched education materials. we the students have pushed them and pushed them for more.  we never seem to get enough.  and complain incesantly if we do not get our way, or they raise prices.  TRUST ME.  I am not sure what is going on, I have my own little conspiracy theory, but quite honestly, I, and a good deal of other members, suspect it is at the doing of his "business partner".  when you hand over the financial reins (half your company/don't quote but I believe it to be true) to someone else so you can focus on "horses" 

well who know what goes on in the office, while your barking at someone at 5am to shovel poo!  I think I will call my conspiracy theory "parelli-gate"

I think they may have made more than a few bad business descisions, that are coming back to haunt them.  I LOVE the new audition process! I hated when they droped the levels to go "patterns/success series only" knowing this was NOT enough info to teach someone.  I almost hit the road then, but at least they have a new levels program, consistent with the new auditions process.

I am not happy with what I suspect is about to be launched.  if it is what I think it is, you guys will have your wish soon, as the empire will crumble.  

many, MANY students are in uproar, upset, leaving and protesting, demanding an explanation.  I assure you, you are not alone in this.

there are several aspects to PNH.  there is the program which is unequelled in a complete home study system, in practice not just on paper.  they do have instructors, though not perfect, are there for LIVE support.  the staff at the main office are so nice, and not at all cult like.  they have thier own opinions as well as cubicle walls. then there is the instructor program, things have changed lately, and I am on the fence, and in a hold pattern, left to wait and see.  there is the club, which is great, I have made lots of friends all over the globe there.  we fight too, disagree, or what ever, but it mostly is all about supporting each other.  which we truley do.  the members, are a great bunch of people, I just wish some of them could see, how easily they offend people. then there is corporate.  I just know one day me and ToTo will make it there to discover some pathetic leprechan with a swollen head, pulling all kinds of strings. do you think he will give me a brain.

I am hoping that Pat and Linda, instructors, and other parelli students will get wind of this thread, and see that it is possible to have dialogue when you do not put people down.  if nothing more than to politely agree to disagree.  we both want the same thing.  for the other side to see us for the good we do.  neither side is perfect, and both could learn alot from each other.  heck, my first parelli instructor, many moons ago, I had sooooooooooooooo much more experience than her it was INSANE.  you have no idea how hard it was to keep my mouth shut and not be rude.  while I learned alot on the ground, I was light years ahead of the other students and her in the saddle.  but I still learned things that help me with new and unconfidnet riders. so I still got my moneys worth. what she taught me on the ground, was amazing!

some day I hope to be able to reveal my identity, as I have a ton of funny horse stories.  but my parelli friends have heard them all.
Me personally, I have done some of THE dumbest things in my life.  I would have you guys in tears, laughing so hard! trust me too when I say, horses are anything but common sense.  which is good, cuz I have none.


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## Bay_Beasty (14 July 2010)

Can I just say, credit where credit is due tongue n cheek offered a lovely thing but setting up this post, her time to answer all our questions and she has done just that. I have found this post seriously interesting and have a totally different few of Parelli now....I see it as much more as it depends who's hands seem to be doing the parelli, much more than the actually idea of parelli itself. 

Well done T n C I am really impressed with you, I hope this is not patronsing, seriously I am, you have answered peoples questions in full and given over you free time to do it.


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## Thelwell_Girl (14 July 2010)

Sorry, havent read the other replies, so not sure if this has already been asked.

Why is there so much 'stuff' (sticks, ropes, halters etc) you have to buy in Parelli? I dont know much about NH at all, so would be really interested to hear your response!

T_G x


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## tongue~n~cheek (14 July 2010)

bay_beasty said:



			Can I just say, credit where credit is due tongue n cheek offered a lovely thing but setting up this post, her time to answer all our questions and she has done just that. I have found this post seriously interesting and have a totally different few of Parelli now....I see it as much more as it depends who's hands seem to be doing the parelli, much more than the actually idea of parelli itself. 

Well done T n C I am really impressed with you, I hope this is not patronsing, seriously I am, you have answered peoples questions in full and given over you free time to do it. 
 

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I fell asleep at my desk and woke up to this lovely post.  not patronising at all. thank you.  I am sure it is a brave thing to admit in front of your friends, and i hope that doesn't sound patronising either.  

there is a big uproar in the parelli comunity, and each person, including myself, had to decide for themselves how they will procede. I am sure, who so ever chooses to leave over this weekends events, will stil be practicing parelli, they will just no longer freely wear thier 'i heart pat" t shirts anymore.

we each have to decide how we will interpret the "spin" parelli corporate will put on this.  some will choose to continue to blindly follow without question, some will proceed with caution, other will stay for the friendships they have gained with in the community, others will leave so fast thier will be a trail of fire behind them.

I guess our big disapointment is that our hero has fallen.  he is no messiah, just a hero.  we all have them.  be it a parent, teacher, athlete, pop star, superhero, actor or horseman. and to watch that happen can be devestating for some.  

as I have said, the program has value in the practical world and has personally allowed me to live my greatest childhood dream, that of owning a wild mustang.  I own a living legend to the spirit of america, have trained it from wild to a circus freak, by myself, and I owe it all to the wonderful program pat and linda designed.  and I have only had two lessons with a parelli professional.  it was all from the dvd's.

I am off to bed, see you on the flip side


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## touchstone (14 July 2010)

bay_beasty said:



			Can I just say, credit where credit is due tongue n cheek offered a lovely thing but setting up this post, her time to answer all our questions and she has done just that. I have found this post seriously interesting and have a totally different few of Parelli now....I see it as much more as it depends who's hands seem to be doing the parelli, much more than the actually idea of parelli itself. 

Well done T n C I am really impressed with you, I hope this is not patronsing, seriously I am, you have answered peoples questions in full and given over you free time to do it. 
 

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Ditto this; T n C it takes a brave sould to stand up when everyone is being 'anti', but you've managed to state your case politely and honestly without being condescending to different viewpoints.   Some of the pro parelli replies have only served to make me turn further away from parelli, so thankyou for your well reasoned discussion.


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## eahotson (14 July 2010)

Thank you for your time and patience.I am now beginning to see a little more clearly and I agree, none of us would like to have the cameras on us all the time.We all make mistakes, loose our temper when we shouldn't etc.I have signed your petition.Thank you for the work you are doing over there too.We have our monsters too.James Grey for one.And not everything done in our training yards is exactly spot on either.
I shall continue to protest against the demo.I have to say I would have a lot of respect for Pat (and maybe maybe even Robert who is just as culpable to me).If they would hold their hands up and apologize.


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## JVB (14 July 2010)

tongue~n~cheek said:



			So I have mentioned I have my own white whale.  wild horse racing.  in particular the oklahoma prison rodeo.  before I coment on a video, why don't some of you take a look at this, no matter how bad you cry, you must watch to the end. to see thier solution to thier violence.  this has been going on every year for 69yrs, unchallenged, and sponsored by some of the nations top products.  this video and the first petition have gotten this years "performance" put on hold.  until things die down I assume.
I guess because the mustang is a nuisance to cattle farmers this is completely justified, and there is a profesional league of cowboys who do this on tour!

no comments needed either way.  if you agree, sign petition, if not, then don't.  its a great way to show up parellil students too, as few have signed.

Petition signed - that was truly awful to watch
		
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## Renvers (14 July 2010)

Yes also have to give credit to you T~n~C for taking the time (quite a lot of time) to answer questions 

I will watch the video later - I am about to go into a meeting I don't think it will be a good idea to go in crying!!

 I would be interested what other Parelliers (not already on HHO) think of this discussion and sharing of information like this. Maybe next we will be playing football on no-mans land...

At the end of the day we are all interested in horse and the passion about recent events is due to concern their welfare, and I am glad people have spoken up on either side about what has happened.


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## Voltarama (14 July 2010)

DragonSlayer said:



			We also had loading issues with Bob (the one with bridle issuse) and my husband sorted him out with that one..

He had a lunge line on bob, and sat half-way up the ramp on the lorry, with his flask of tea and paper....didn't ask Bob (who was gearing up for a fight) to do a thing. OH just sat there.....occasionally talking to Bob...and when I returned after a ride on one of the other horses, turned him away and did a few jobs...over 3 hours had passed, I came round the corner to see OH still sat, Bob was hopping, obviously bored to tears....then you know what?

In he went, and NEVER a bother again.

We have a IW 510 trailer now, and he loads and travels in that perfectly.

PATIENCE is how I teach my horses to trust me. OH and me have worked on a few other horses for friends too....with great success.....
		
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What i like about this is that it wasn't even slightly aggressive. The horse was give the chance to work out that ramps and lorries don't need to be scary. It's like something out of one of Mark Rashids' books (apologies if you don't like him).


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## storm horse (14 July 2010)

suze369 said:



			Yes also have to give credit to you T~n~C for taking the time (quite a lot of time) to answer questions 

I will watch the video later - I am about to go into a meeting I don't think it will be a good idea to go in crying!!

 I would be interested what other Parelliers (not already on HHO) think of this discussion and sharing of information like this. Maybe next we will be playing football on no-mans land...

At the end of the day we are all interested in horse and the passion about recent events is due to concern their welfare, and I am glad people have spoken up on either side about what has happened.
		
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i've found myself here as a result of the catwalk incident being posted on another site.  the H&H forum was linked to the post.

i congratulate t_n_c on her courage to initiate a post such as this,  particularly at such an emotional time for those within & outside the world of parelli.

i have been studying the program for quite a few years & have seen it go thru many changes, some that suited me , some that didn't .  

i think that this type of discussion is way overdue.  often, as soon as you mention parelli, you are put in a position of having to not only justify why you chose to follow the program, but also explain the why's & where-fore's of Pat & linda's actions and/or decisions.  

it's nice to see constructive discussion from people interested in trying to understand the philosophy & principles behind the program.  at the end of the day, i''m sure we all only want to enjoy our horses & hopefully make a few friends along the way


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## SpottedCat (14 July 2010)

tongue~n~cheek said:



			to be honest, it takes quite a bit of effort to get that clip to hit a horse in the head. the mjority of rope shaking you see the clip doesn't hit the head.  I agree with you.  if it did, I wouldn't do it. for someone wildly shaking the rope about, in order for the clip to make contact, as often as yu suggest, they likely will have a shoulder injury when done.  I personally pop a horse once with it after asking nicely, repeatedly to stay off me or back up. no reply...pop...I usually do not have to ask again.  the entire purpose of "all that rope wiggling" is to stay safe.  to get the horse off of you.  alot of people can't keep a horse off of them, and even with a quiet horse, it could be dangerous.  level one is about safety, from there things are refined.
		
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Ok, so the O'Connor's are well known for being advocates of the Parelli movement. This is a video from their eventing camp. The clip obviously and repeatedly hits the horse - and there is no way the guy has a shoulder injury!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gqy7sSK0Y4c

This is the most recent example I have seen, many, many other videos exist which I am happy to spend the time finding if you can explain to me why this video reflects what I have consistently seen rather than what you describe above. This video reinforces my opinion of this being an unfair way of asking due to the equipment being used rather than the methodology, and I do not understand why a better way of fixing the rope to the halter has not been found if the purpose is getting the horse to back off using a moving rope rather than using the negative reinforcement of being hit round the head with a metal clip.

If the answer is 'they're doing it wrong' (which I accept could well be the case), why doesn't Parelli market gear where it doesn't matter if the handler gets it wrong - after all we've already established that many people who get into this are novices!

ETA: Many thanks for taking the time to do this - I'm not being deliberately difficult, just struggle to see why the chosen equipment is being used - the methodology is fine by me when it doesn't involve belting something round the head with a metal clip when it hasn't done anything wrong - it was stood still, a lot of the time we want the horse to stand still!


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## Orangehorse (14 July 2010)

Thank you TIC for your thoughful replies.

There is a big cultural difference between the USA and the UK, because we share a common language people in the UK think that things are the same (I have relatives in the USA).  When Monty Roberts came to the UK an awful lot of people didn't understand where he was coming from AT ALL, because the vast majority of people were kind and gentle when breaking in horses, and took it carefully step by step -so who was this cowboy to tell us what to do.  The thing to remember that in the USA an awful lot of accepted practice was more in the "ride him cowboy" vein.  There are rodeos of bucking cattle and horses on the TV for one thing, so obviously a horse has to be "broken" to make it ridable.  The same goes for Mark Rashid, and Mr. PP, who showed that horses don't have to be treated harshly and got an awful lot of people to have happy successful relationships with their horses.

I can remember one lady from the USA who was over in the UK doing a clinic, when someone asked if they were hurting their horse when doing an exercise, replied by saying "Lady you cannot hurt your horse by doing that, you don't want to hurt your horse.  If you did want to hurt your horse, then take a chain and beat it until it falls to the ground, which is what I have seen in the USA."  So THAT is the culture where PP/Monty Roberts, etc. is coming from and they have succeeded in the most part by showing that there is a different, kind way to treat horses.


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## pippinpie (14 July 2010)

SpottedCat said:



			Ok, so the O'Connor's are well known for being advocates of the Parelli movement. This is a video from their eventing camp. The clip obviously and repeatedly hits the horse - and there is no way the guy has a shoulder injury!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gqy7sSK0Y4c

This is the most recent example I have seen, many, many other videos exist which I am happy to spend the time finding if you can explain to me why this video reflects what I have consistently seen rather than what you describe above. This video reinforces my opinion of this being an unfair way of asking due to the equipment being used rather than the methodology, and I do not understand why a better way of fixing the rope to the halter has not been found if the purpose is getting the horse to back off using a moving rope rather than using the negative reinforcement of being hit round the head with a metal clip.

If the answer is 'they're doing it wrong' (which I accept could well be the case), why doesn't Parelli market gear where it doesn't matter if the handler gets it wrong - after all we've already established that many people who get into this are novices!

ETA: Many thanks for taking the time to do this - I'm not being deliberately difficult, just struggle to see why the chosen equipment is being used - the methodology is fine by me when it doesn't involve belting something round the head with a metal clip when it hasn't done anything wrong - it was stood still, a lot of the time we want the horse to stand still!
		
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I don't know who the O'connors are and frankly I don't want to 
If this instructor is trying to teach a horse he really needs to learn the basics himself ! First of all there are phases 1,2,3,4, to any command, this guy simple missed out phases 1&2
Phase 1 (for the back up and return 'Yo yo') = the raised hand with the end of the rope towards you, you wag your finger (I know that sounds daft but horses know what happen before what happens happens) so this is a 'hey buddy pay attention kind of thing' if that alerts your horse and he is attentive and looking at you, you continue that phase 1 along with a raised body energy, the moment he responds you take the neutral position and thats the reward for trying, if on the other hand you get no response from phase 1 you step up to phase 2 the movement of your wrist which will start to send 'life' through rope and a stronger signal, then phase 3 is the movement of your elbow with much more life in the rope, and phase 4 is a simple flick and roll of the rope which will almost certainly connect the clip with the jaw/ lower cheek.
This bad example is not teaching the horse, it is clumsy and totally not what I have learnt from PNH.
He should have used much longer phases phase 1 minimum 5-8 seconds, same with all phases, he should have rewarded as soon as the horse made the slightest try. Also to teach back up to a horse unfamiliar with backing up is to add possibly a bit of 'driving game' where by you introduce the CS and sting and push on the horses 'personal space' by slow phase 1 flicks towards his chest, (I personally have found just the rope works fine for me) when a horse starts to learn this 'game' you use a long phase 1 and then a quicker transition up the phases. Rarely should you need phase 4 if you give your horse a chance to understand what you are asking, this was one of the easiest games to teach my cocky/pushy young horse the better he got at 'yo yo' game the more respect he gave me too.
As for the equipment, that is universal within the Natural Horsemanship world and not solely the tools of PNH, you can buy the equipment from anywhere and from any other HN clinician like Clinton Anderson (who by the way I think is a bully to his horses, this technique look similar to PNH but are much harder/ faster and does not give the horse any time to think) Oh and by the way I bought most of my stuff off eBay


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## suejs001 (14 July 2010)

Hiya, 
((I am really upset over the PP / Catwalk incident))  I started PNH about 12 months ago as my horse at the age of 6 just said 'NO MORE' ... I had to find another way to engage with him.  I had to get a new saddle and he had to have time off riding so I took it up .. I have had more critisism than I care to shake a stick at, my so called friends have had me in tears laughing and ridiculing me, but I have stuck by the programme because I can see changes in my very extreme horse (for those in the PNH he is LBE / RBE).  If he didn't like this and there was no improvement I wouldn't stick with it.    

The programme takes some getting used to, it isn't easy to get to grips with, like the first time you lunged a horse or rode or rode a bike or drove a car, but I have enjoyed the journey so far.. Yes I think there are ego's involved with Pat & Linda -I think it has become far more commercial than it should and a lot of what is said is the same thing time and time again, however, these are not 100% Parelli methods, he says so himself, he is just the one who has put it all together with Linda and marketed it into a very successful business. 

I didn't enjoy Sunday (I knew nothing of the catwalk demo) and I was really looking forward to it, but I didn't.  the atmosphere was awful and it was obvious that Pat and Linda were under a great deal of pressure.

I don't hero worship Pat or Linda, but the programme works for me, and it works for my horse and that is why I do it.  Im not interested in bigging them up, I am only interested in doing what is best for my horse.  If this helps him then how can it be the wrong thing to do?  He loves it!  And I enjoy it because he does.  

I have met some lovely people and not so lovely people but that is the same as in any walk in life.  I don't try and convert people into this method of working with their horse because if they don't want to or don't feel they have a need that is up to them, I have enough to do with my own horse to worry about what others do with thiers.  (and I actually would like the same respect back!!)  

How the Parelli spin doctors put a sticky plaster on this one I don't know, but I do PNH for myself and my horse and not because I love Pat Parelli or follow some cult.  So don't judge us that practice these methods, a lot of us are just normal people so don't say you can't stand those Parelli People ... you don't know me to say that!  

I have to say that my horse became critically ill on 1st January this year with laminitis and had 5 1/2 months on box rest, because I understood my horse better because of the parelli programme it really did help me help him thought this awful time.  

Just remember you get good and bad people in all walks of life!  

And the equipment, well you don't need much, think of your current equipment ... a lunge line is the same as a 22ft line, 12ft line.  Lunge whip like a carrot stick, halter like a head collar / bridle.  You wouldn't think of not having this in your tack room, the same for someone doing PNH wouldn't think of not having these in their tack room.  

Prior to PNH I have shown for years very successfully at country shows, PNH has helped me show my horse better because I have a better relationship and communication with him, and like one person said the Mark Rashid books are just the best of the best.


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## suejs001 (14 July 2010)

Oh and I can assure you PNH is no quick fix!!!  about 6 months hard work until my horse got laminitis ... and since I can work him a little bit again.  There are 100's of nuances on each of the 7 games to build your horse and yourself and to refine and make things more fun and build trust and respect.  I am working at level 3 on line and when I can ride my horse again I will start at level 1 on the riding.  And I agree with what has been said it should be a long phase 1 and a quick 2, 3 - 4.  But please remember that each horse in an individual and it depends upon your horses inate characteristic as to whether he will be a bit stubborn or not! )!  My phase 1, my horse goes , yeah you and whos!!! but that is typical of his character.  

Don't judge us all with the same opinion.... 
S x


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## VictoriaEDT (14 July 2010)

To be honest OP I am not really interested in an explanation of "catwalkgate"  - it is blindingly obvious PP and LP behaviour here was not acceptable. I have seen in the past LP throwing a rope into the face of a horse with one eye - she was standing on the "blind" side of the horse all the time and threw the rope into the blind side. That speaks for itself and is why I am not interested in hearing their side of the story.


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## tongue~n~cheek (14 July 2010)

suejs001 said:



			Hiya, 
 So don't judge us that practice these methods, a lot of us are just normal people so don't say you can't stand those Parelli People ... you don't know me to say that!  


Prior to PNH I have shown for years very successfully at country shows, PNH has helped me show my horse better because I have a better relationship and communication with him, and like one person said the Mark Rashid books are just the best of the best.
		
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I wan't to point something out in this post.  I removed the rest so it is easy to see.  for all future parelli posters, and those who will read them.

while this was a very honest, post, and 99.99% non inflametory. and while I don't personaly think this is inflametory, it is defensive. (the first part) IMPO, devensivesness is what started ALL of this. I feel that anti parelli people are on the defensive because WE (not I or alot of us) make them feel like they have to defend themselves.  so just my advice to sue, while you are right, they don't know each and every one of us, everyone has thier own experiences with parelli people, if they choose to hate us, so be it.  it is thier choice, they may or may not have very valid reasons for doing so.  we cannot tell anyone that they do not have the right to thier opinion, or tell them not to do something.  I am trying to show here on this thread, that we can co-exist while disagreeing.  if someone chooses to be hateful, that is on them. 

now for the second part of what I quoted, this is the grey area, that so easily gets interpreted as someone suggesting that they feel they have a good relationship with thier horse and others do not.  so I am asking non parelli people to read that section, and see that in no way, was she saying that she/we have a great relationship and you don't.  but when parelli, infact all NH people, say something like this, it all too often is interpreted that way.  the person instantly goes on the defensive, that we feel superior in some way.  I want parelli people to read this to see that this is the "sensitive" zone.  when you tell someone, out of excitement and pride, how parelli has helped you have a great relationship, tread lightly.  if you truley are sharing for sharing sake, the last thing you want is to put someone on the defensive.

because when you are saying "i got this doing this" knowing full well the other does not "do this", often the reply, even if only in ones head is

"well I don't do that, so you must think I don't have that, since I do things differently"

i think most of us on both sides need to just relax a little, so we can truly hear what some one is saying.

I really want to keep the "parelli" side of this thread non inflametory. and for both sides to see just how easy it is to put someone on the defensive.  neither side should HAVE to defend itself.

so if you are parelli and wish to contribue to this thread I welcome it, as more people can see that we are normal folk, not in a cult, not brainwashed and love our horses too, and that we DO NOT ALL blindly follow and copy every little thing pat and linda say and do.

we cannot change the state of our co-existense if some one doesn't first stop being defensive.  put down your weapons, and ignore the bullets, that way you can see the man, not his gun.

and I am sorry to hear about your horse sue, I hope he is better.  laminitis is hard, I had a horse suffer over a year with it, she is barefoot and healthy still 10yrs later.


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## tongue~n~cheek (14 July 2010)

way late for work, have to run, thank you to each of you have allowed me to share.  I will answer more questions tonight after work and hopefully a few min of horse play before a shakle myself to my desk.

pat and linda, and parelli staff and instructors, I hope you are watching this!

people don't have to pay thousands of dollars and pledge undying loyalty in writing to be an ambassador. requiring people to join a club, only singles people out, and makes them feel more excluded.  it only crams a larger wedge in the comunity, and forces your loyal students to seek refuge.  being able to have a mind of my own, and say ANYTHING I want without fear of punishment, has it's merits.  I am not spouting pre aprroved drivvle, and people CAN tell the difference.  if anything, you should be paying ME.


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## SpottedCat (14 July 2010)

pippinpie said:



			As for the equipment, that is universal within the Natural Horsemanship world and not solely the tools of PNH, you can buy the equipment from anywhere and from any other HN clinician like Clinton Anderson (who by the way I think is a bully to his horses, this technique look similar to PNH but are much harder/ faster and does not give the horse any time to think) Oh and by the way I bought most of my stuff off eBay 

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The O'Conners are 4* level event riders, so pretty good horsemen.

But that does not answer my question, which was why does Parelli not advocate kit which can't be used in this way (i.e. a better way of fastening line to halter so if people bypass steps it does not end up with a horse being hit round the head like that), not, is this kit universal in the NH world and can I buy it outside the Parelli system.


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## Onyxia (14 July 2010)

Thankyou for taking the time to answer Naturally 



Naturally said:



			I agree with you that its a lot of money to spend on the equipment, and people could easily suffice with cheaper versions. none of mine is parelli branded, I found it all cheaper elsewhere. Its sad to hear of parelli instructors who won't teach you unless you have the branded kit  On the whole though, its generally the case that as people get into a new thing, they want to use and buy all the brand new, right equipment. Materialistic, yes, but true.
		
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I know,and TBH don't see anything wrong with it as long as it is a persons choice 
No difference to buying a top brand saddle instead of local saddlers own brand,how a person spends their money is up to them.
i just feel very uneasy with the insistance from _some_ (and I do want to make it clear that I do only mean some) Parelli instructors that people looking into PNH for the first time must spend a large amount on equipment.



Naturally said:



			As for the cost of the DVDs, well yes it is a lot of money, but it includes a fair heft of material. my main objection to the retail of all the parelli stuff is that there are people who will buy the DVDs and the starter pack and think they are the next, well, pat parelli  you really can't substitute face to face lessons with DVDs, in my opinion, not when you're working with horses.
		
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I hear you  Same across the horse world- a stage  DVD does not make you ready to take that stage,a DVD/book by a top showjumper does not make you ready t jump GP simply offering an insight into methods used at various levels of training the showjumper but there will always be some people who don't get that rather simple concept(honestly,I wonder how they manage to boil a kettle without danger to themselves!).
Once agian,my objection is not to the kit/DVDs ect ebing avalable to buy,but the drive to get people to buy them at what is IMO an inflated price-it's purely money grabbing.
I have seen very fe direct questions answered,but lots met with "If you buy XXX DVD,you will find the answer there"  
	
	
		
		
	


	




People have paid to see the demos allready,it should not be too hard to give an answer that does not involve making a sale (even a shorter less in depth answer then their DVDs give).


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## Onyxia (14 July 2010)

tongue~n~cheek said:



			way late for work, have to run, thank you to each of you have allowed me to share.  I will answer more questions tonight after work and hopefully a few min of horse play before a shakle myself to my desk.

pat and linda, and parelli staff and instructors, I hope you are watching this!

people don't have to pay thousands of dollars and pledge undying loyalty in writing to be an ambassador. requiring people to join a club, only singles people out, and makes them feel more excluded.  it only crams a larger wedge in the comunity, and forces your loyal students to seek refuge.  being able to have a mind of my own, and say ANYTHING I want without fear of punishment, has it's merits.  I am not spouting pre aprroved drivvle, and people CAN tell the difference.  if anything, you should be paying ME.
		
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They don't seem able to handle their own PR well,so amybe they should 

I am not anti NH. TBH I am not even really anti PNH since I am of a veiw that if it works and causes no harm it's all good.
The second you put on "colours" though it all goes to ****,and teh Parelli's attitude to "outsiders" has done nothing to make them just one of a long line of methods avalable-the us or abuse mentality has made them(and their product) into a figure of hatred.

Monty Roberts has never(at least not since he came to be a "known" figure") felt a backlash like Parelli for instance,simply because he puts his point across in a simple,gentle way and works hard to ensure it makes sense.
The Parelli's respond with "you don't understand"-attempting to make experianced horsemen feel stupid will never endear you


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## eahotson (14 July 2010)

While I will continue to complain about Catwalk I hope I don't hate all people who practise Parelli.As TIC says, we must put down the guns and see the people.See the one thing we have in common, a love of horses and a wish to doour best by them however we do it.


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## Natch (14 July 2010)

anima said:



			Once agian,my objection is not to the kit/DVDs ect ebing avalable to buy,but the drive to get people to buy them at what is IMO an inflated price-it's purely money grabbing.
I have seen very fe direct questions answered,but lots met with "If you buy XXX DVD,you will find the answer there"  
	
	
		
		
	


	




People have paid to see the demos allready,it should not be too hard to give an answer that does not involve making a sale (even a shorter less in depth answer then their DVDs give).
		
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I love that smiley 

I too, get frustrated with the "well you'd understand it if you bought my DVD/book/equipment" idea. I'm sure i think it comes down to how you've handled the question; and Parelli seems to put off a lot of people by appearing to try to churn them through the machine.

I for one, would be more inclined to buy someone's DVD at a trade show, for example, if I had approached them with a question about my horse's behaviour and they had answered, given me a couple of ideas of things to try with him, and then recommended the most relevant learning material.


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## Bay_Beasty (14 July 2010)

eahotson said:



			While I will continue to complain about Catwalk I hope I don't hate all people who practise Parelli.As TIC says, we must put down the guns and see the people.See the one thing we have in common, a love of horses and a wish to doour best by them however we do it.
		
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This is brilliantly said!


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## tongue~n~cheek (15 July 2010)

anima said:



			TBF,at the start it was.
Christianity started off as a small band of people saying something that most did not want to hear or accept.
Most of our texts were written hundreds of years after the death of Jesus at which point what he said had started to gain popularity.

As a RC,I still have issue with people following it blindly 

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YUP
while no cult, as defined by websters dictionary or any other standard, the paralell to religion is stagering.


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## tongue~n~cheek (15 July 2010)

Luci07 said:



			If I was the OP, then I don't think I would bother to reply at all!. She/he made a geniune offer to explain certain elements of Parelli, has stated they do not follow it blindly and question parts of it, yet the threat has turned in an almighty bashing of Parelli and in turn, the OP.  The post did not start with "Parelli is king and everything else is wrong" but you would think that was the case judging by the responses!. There are some geniune questions and response intermingled which I would like to see answered but the bulk of the responses are uncalled for.

I don't practise/use Parelli, but would be geniunely interested to understand more - I think we can all agree that with horses you never stop learning but the way most people have jumped on this particular bandwagon, I think we might just have lost a chance to have some questions answered.
		
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thank you luci, but I since I borrowed harry potters invisible cloak, I am quite thick skined. I have recieved some messages not to bother, I am wasting my time, no one wants to hear about parelli.  but I am H E L L bent on proving them wrong.  do not misunderstand what I said and take it as conversion.  I am not trying to get anyone to do parelli or NH in the slightest.  just to hear, that it may not be what you think it is, not all things appear as they seem, and at the very least we MIGHT be able to co-exist.  this is mostly for parelli people.  to see that with the right attitude, maybe we wont be judged so harshly.  I have not been back to the stonliegh thread as I just can't keep up.  not even come close.  and I rather prefer to focus my energy in a positive and construvtive manner, than a destructive manner, throwing effort after foolishness.


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## foolforahorse (15 July 2010)

Please explain to me what Linda is trying to accomplish here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CyF2QqP29DU


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## tongue~n~cheek (15 July 2010)

anima said:



			Sure I will think of more once I get this bloody eyelash out of my eye! ARRRRR.
And thankyou for takign the time to post and reply to us.
		
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Well, this is a tall order for sure, does your waiter run at the local pub when he see's you coming LOL


1) Why are the Parelli's so resistant to any form of critasism?

I think it is a natural human response.  that is my honest opinion.  I don't think anyone likes scrutiny or microscopes.  I endured three hours from my boss today and can assure you, it was no fun.  still have my job
but I do agree that if you are confident in your product you should be more open for questioning.  but I think since pat has no problem saying things about other methods, mainly traditional ones (linda doesn't really do this, I don't see arrogance from her in the least) that unless you are mesmerized from the beginning, you are likely a at least a little defensive by what he says. so if you were the later, the defensive person doing the scrutinizing, you are less likely to be objective.  I am sure he has gone thru that kind of 'questioning" and cares not to repeat it.  I know I wouldn't.  does it make it right? who knows.  

2)On a personal level,do you feel the buissnes side has over taken the horse care side for the Parelli's? 

Yes I do. IMHO I don't think it was intentional. this may seem a little degrading, but I picture Pat like my child.  the one with the cock-eyed optimism and big dreams, that lack the adult dash of reality.  my child always has some scheme cooking, like selling pokemon cards on ebay to get rich, or creating thier own club penguin blog to become famous.  the level of plagerism in my house is down right illegal, but if the disney police want to arrest a 10yo kid, who am I to stop them

I think pat had a dream to make the world a better place for horses. he has natural charisma that draws people to him, and the more he did, the more they wanted.  as everyone knows a single person can not be everywhere all at the same time, thus the invention of dvd's.  social media has made him famous, and now infamous.  I think as a not everyone is great at everything, they entrust a certain amount to someone to help them in things they are not good at.  pat is a horseman. and this thing is evolving, and thier program has always been the inovator, to be copied, thus suject to always being in unchartered water.  some things will be successfull and others will fail miserably, just as in most things in life.

3)Following on 
 Why is the required equipment so damn expensive?

just like all our favorite stores, prices are a bit inflated to cause you to believe a sale or club discount is soooooo great.  if you can find a loop hole 'round this time honored business tradition, please let victoria secret know  having said that, they are superior in quality, and I think I answered about design, production, ordering in bulk, flooring, and the like, if it were my money floating out there in "credit" land, I know I would want to get as much back as quickly as possible, before the bank takes it all.

this is just my honest opinion, the value of most of the educational material is worth every penny.  I think the price point on the patterns is way to high for what you get, and for liberty and horse behavior, but that one is chock full of the most fascinating horse psychology ever. the price is rediculous though.  trust me, we students gripe about price more than anything else.  but usually there is a promotional offer coming 'round the bend.  however not riding 6 white horses.
the get started dvd is a good value, though the shipping can screw that up.  it was wildly high to start, but I think we beat them down on that.

3)A,B,C,D= ok, i know this is a tall order, and while I will not argue that one brand of savvy string is drastically better than another. my first carrot stick was a broom handle and let me say, the carrot stick is waaaay better.  I too tried the bale twine, no weight in it. and there IS a far cry's difference between a carrot/savvy stick than a reg whip.  it is stiff with no give to use to push a horse without bending, giving you a safe distance to touch a horse from.  yes a lead rope can achieve many of the same things, but the very weight of it, makes your arm tired and too easy to give up before a horse if the situation arrises.  my advice, so you can make up your own mind, scientifically (how i did it) is to make your own and compare to feel of a c/s+string, you will see/feel the difference.  I also have cheap rope halters, and some do fit different, and twist on the horses head.  I have made my own halters and leads as well to save money.  clintons halter is extremely stiff and thin and rubs a horses face raw in no time flat, I had one and couldn't sell it fast enough.  I have never had ever fur rubs from a parelli halter or similar types. so can similar products do the job at a fraction of the cost? YES.  And many people do parelli with them.  if you were a business person with a product to sell, that you know is quality, would you direct people to your cheaper competitors?  Um no.  I cannot speak of whether or not "parelli" brand equiptment is a must to get started with an instructor or clinic.  the one I went to, I used my home made 22' line, and a cheap halter, but I checked ahead of time to make sure it was ok.  if they had said no, I wouldn't have attended.

4)This is the thing I have most issue with.
Why try to make Parelli methods the only ones people listen to? 
Other methods enjoy equal (if not greater) sucess and are employed day in,day out by many more people around the world.
Any good horseman will understand the need to look at what people are doing,then think about it and decide if it is something usefull.
The attempted removing of that by Parelli instructors is a worry.

Ok, this goes back to selling your product.  while I agree, there are many things to learn from outside the parelli world, I have heard pat say with my own two ears, he doesn't care if you follow his program or someone elses, but if a program is what you are looking for, you need to FOLLOW the program.  the reason is most, while similar yet different, they are set up in a sequence, from easiest to hardest, and one thing is based on the fundamental understanding of something else.  if you take something out of context or sequence, it can lose all meaning or value.  but of course you are going to say yours is the best, if you didn't people wouldnt listen to you.  imagine this:

"I know alot of great things, you should learn from my ideas.  keep in mind I am no where near the best, in fact you can find all this info else where, at a better price, from a more knowlegabel person, with a better product"

how silly is that?

And as far as the instructors go.  if I have a problem with my mercedes, I am not taking it to a kia dealer to solve the problem.  they do infact have a brand, and he is certifying that if I want to learn the parelli method, than I will NOT be lead astray by a certified parelli instructor.  not that anything else has less value, it is that you can be assured that you wont get anything but parelli from one of his instructors.  Pat is giving his word on that, and I can understand, not allowing them to teach ANYTHING but parelli.  but I doubt that they cannot watch others.  but I am not privvy to the contractual details of that.


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## tongue~n~cheek (15 July 2010)

skint1 said:



			Tongue and Cheek, Are you from FiSH?
		
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I have NO idea what fish is, other than something gordon ramsey thinks no one but himself can cook properly, so I am going to say no.

I tried to google, but, only things with water around them came up


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## tongue~n~cheek (15 July 2010)

roo2012 said:



			Hi t~n~c, thanks for your input in this and 'the other' thread.

As an adult 'beginner' owner I looked into many different techniques and horsemanship methods, I have attended demonstrations and have a lot of friends involved with Parelli.

Leaving 'problem horses' aside, I don't really understand a lot of the groundwork techniques with Parelli. If I want my horse to back up I will put a flat hand on his chest and say 'back'. Similarly I can turn him on the forehand or quarters or move him forwards. He will confidently lead anywhere, over anything. 

I guess what I'm trying to say is that I don't really understand the rope wiggling, 'carrot stick' waving and the games themselves. Most of the time you have to move the horse around he will be in a field, stable, tied up for grooming or tacked up for excercise. Generally not in a rope halter, with a handy carrot stick and long rope. What do you do? You move the horse around by putting a hand on it and saying over/back etc. Obviously there will be horses who find this difficult but from what I have seen the Parelli 'games' seem to confuse horses more than anything. 

To progress through the levels you have to demonstrate you are doing everything the 'Parelli' way. It is not marketed as being able to pick and choose the bits you would use (I haven't found this with any of the other 'NH' trainers). It seems to be an all or nothing approach and I don't understand how this can be applied - blanket style - to all horses, when every horse has a different personality (horsenality??).

Sorry for the long rambling post but I haven't before had the opportunity to have my questions answered by someone like yourself, normally my enquiries are not welcomed by Parelli people.
		
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Ok, lesson on phases and body language.  phase one is the "easiest" phase 4 is "what ever is effective" 2-3 are the progression from 1-4.  phase one is usually body language only, a finger wiggle, phase 2 wiggle rope from rope to what touches the ground, phase 3 wiggle rope just untill you see the halter move lightly, phase 4 is what ever it takes to get the horse to back up.  IF you release the second the horse backs, no matter what phase you are at, the horse will QUICKLY learn to move back from a finger wiggle.  IF you dont release, or IF you start at phase 2 or 3, your horse will get dull, and ignore the phase 1.  horse know what happens, before what ever 'happens" actually happens.  just like they know that if I go in the shed it means nothing, but if they hear a bag rustle while I am in there, lots of nickers for sure.  because they know, bag rustles and minutes later I come out with buckets of goodies.  if I rstled the bags everyday for say a week, with no goodies to follow, they will quickly start to ignore it.

generally speaking, most horses get it quickly, it is the human that makes it slow going.  again, my students horse might take a week to perfect something or a month, but I can walk in and get him to do it the first time, maybe second.  there are horses that are more difficult for sure, but generally speaking it isn't the games that confuse a horse, it is the human.  I can now, teach a horse all 7 games in a session, provided we are not talking a difficult horse. I have taken a wild horse from wild thru all the levels on the ground in 8mos.  and I would be willing to bet next time it will go faster.  but speed is not my goal, confidence is.  "I" take the time it takes, but I make mistakes too.  who doesn't.  sometimes a mistake will take me a week to recover from. depends on the faux pas.

of course you have to demonstrate pure parelli to progress "officially", it is his program.  but, many would be surprised that alot of what they already do is natural.  it is more the man/attitude/timing/feel than the technique that makes something natural.  his program is for humans to learn attitude/timing/feel not how to train a horse.  through the program, and techniques you learn those things.  but "officially" it is how well you know the parelli techniques of course.  there is no way for it to be another way.

horsenalities, is about the different types of horses.  learning how to read the body language of the horse to determine thier 'type" so that you can then use the appropriate strategies that they give you for that kind of horse.

the very BASIC gist.
left brain extrovert(confident/energetic/naughty)= play with me 
left brain introvert(confident/lazy/stubborn)=what is in it for me
right brain extrovert(unconfident/terrified/crazy/on crack)=focus me
right brain introvert(undonfident/quiet/unpredictable)=be gentle with me. (you can NEVER hit this horse, break his confidence in you and it could take a year to get it back)

I can be what looks like "horrific" with an LBI and he could CARE LESS, all he cares about=where my food
I barely whisper and my rbi comes out of his skin.

the wiggle wiggle whack whack looks totally different based on who I am playing with and what mood they are in.

My advice, you have parelli friends and are obviously not opposed to going to events or things with them.  ask to borrow something. ask them questions, just don't start the question, or end it, with an opinion.  they will be more open and less defensive, and more likely to give you an honest answer.  then don't take offense to anything they say.  likely they don't know how to explain it well enough not to make you defensive, and you already have history of "clashing".  none of this means you have to like it or agree in the end, but at least you will have made a scientific informed descision, based on your OWN experiments, not someone elses.


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## tongue~n~cheek (15 July 2010)

yaddowshad said:



			Parelli is a circus sold to people who have over horsed themselves and have not bothered to learn to ride a horse properly or have even the basics of good stable management.
		
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As an upper level dressage rider, eventer, hunter/jumper, who trained my horses myself prior to parelli, have run a breeding farm of over 100 head of horses at any given time, foaled out somwhere in the neighborhood of 60 foals myself, started horses for racing, worked with racing TB's, re-habed countless ex-racers, own my own farm, board, train and teach.
I would have to say this statement is somewhat inacurate.  

but I do own a pair of dancing poodles


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## tongue~n~cheek (15 July 2010)

fburton said:



			Thanks for your most generous offer, tongue~n~cheek.

My questions are:

1) Is there really a strong tendency - as I have noticed - for Parelli students to assume that any problem behaviour that doesn't actually involve the horse running away indicates dominance? So, for example, Catwalk's evading the bridle being put on is dominant behaviour.

2) Why is that?

Thanks,
Francis
		
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Many students at the moment feel compeled to defend pat.  be it out of respect, admiration, devotion, loyalty: basically reasons run the gamut.  I know that for some, there has to be a level of 'quotation" with out true understanding, so just keep that in mind.  I have done it too, no on this one, but I did for Linda, and came to regret it. but that will be in another answer regarding her video.  for this question, I would have to say no, but possibly.  I know, what a crock huh? firstly because I do not know all of these people or thier individual level of understanding of either the man, a horse or the program.

I do know that dominant is not a primary word in our vocabulary. but generally speaking if a horse is unconfident/fearful safety and comfort is thier primary concern, not dominance games.  they are in a fight/flight mode.  on the other side, generally speaking a confident horse is not, and thus fun, games, relaxation and FOOD are what is on his mind.  dominance can come in many forms.  if you are someone who routinly braids manes, surely you have come across this once or twice.  your horse moves ever so slightly and you adjust your feet acordingly to keep from dropping said braid and starting that one ever.  that is a dominance game.  it is a subtle one, but they take thier 'wins" where they can get them. a stuborn horse that plants his feet to say no to something, is a dominance game. I wish I could show you a clip of one of my videos with out losing my annonymity, but I had a horse once, not long ago, who would not let you touch one side of thier face.  initially this behavior started out of fear for sure.  i know it was not out of abuse, it was out of wildness.  well the people who I got him from knew NOTHING about horses really, and over a LONG period of time this horse became very confident about the fact that he knew just how long thier arms were and just how far (not far btw) they were willing to push the issue, so pattie (we'll call this horse) was confident in the fact that she could keep you from doing it, thus not afraid at all in the approach, and her skill level was cunning.  I got a hold of her and knew that this of course was not healty behavior and wanted to get it rectified as soon as possible.  it took about 6 hrs from start to finish with patience and just my hands and rope around neck but not tied just draped, no pulling, wiggle nothing. pattie never tried to leave and never displayed any fearful behavior even when I finally got to touch the part I wanted, and all this to get the halter on, a first for pattie.  I did not even bring the halter into the stall until i could touch her all over her face.  then started again with halter, rubbing and releasing all over. had she displayed any fearful behavior I would have quit with being able to just touch with my hands, and left the halter for another day. her moving her head a thousand times was dominant behavior in the sense that she was the one in control of her face, not me.  she was in control of the time line, and how far she would let me expand the "touchable" area.  while I was in control of the session, she was in control of her face.  it was a passive control, but I did nothing to so fast as to cause her to feel the need to take that dominance to the next level.  I have a threshold my self for dominant horses, etreme ones like stallions and even some gelding, do not sit well with me, and I try not to work with them.  I am uncomfortable, and I know they will know that instantly and will and many times in my past, take advantage of that.  for ME, it is not safe to be around horses that are agressive out of confidence.  there is also agression out of fear as well.  if you take away a horses ability to "flight" they can resort to "fight".  it may very well look the same.  i have not dealt with a horse like catwalk (thier discription anyways) since my involvement with parelli.

now I have a mare, not the alpha, who is very dominant, nearly evil at times, and a sweet heart the next.  I cannot just make her do things, but I cannot let her push me around either.  it goes to her head, and she gets worse.  she honestly respects the fact that i am on her level skill.  if i am slow and stupid, she wont give me the time of day.  if I am smarter than her (she is wicked smart) and somehow APPEAR more athletic and faster than her, she is all for playing with me, her ears prick forward, she gets very animated and stays by my side for ever.  if I take it one step over the line, she she ignors me for a week.  fickel mare for sure. everyday with her is a new adventure, a new learning experience, and like having a barn full of horses all wrapped up in one.

I would think, a man with the level of experience pat has can tell the difference between the two.  what I am not sure of, is if this was caused by the fact that the all mighty pat couldn't get it done in a half hour, robert was looking for a quick fix, rather than take the time it takes to learn how to patiently do it himself (or grooms) and pat did not fail to deliver.  had it all gone as acording to the status quo, I would not label it a quick fix.  i know, odd that taking LESS time is not a quick fix. that, imo, is because if someone can fix it quickly, it wasn't bad, wasn't the horse, it was the human who had the problem.  so the fact that pat couldn't do it in a half hour tells me this was a serious problem and IMO, he should have told robert it would take more time and quit then and there.  while that might have been embarasing for them both, i think the current result is far more embarasing. he went against his own priciples of not acting like a predator, not using force, and my personal favorite.  not going the extra mile for someone going the other direction.  robert clearly has no desire to learn to be a better horseman on the GROUND, and looked for a quick fix, as I am sure this horse has a price tag he has to earn.  if he respected pat so much, and thought this horse was that bad that it was beyond the scope of himself and his grooms, he should have trusted pats faith in his uk pnh trainers, and sent him there for a couple of weeks at the very least.  but no.  NO ONE, put this horses dignity first.  they did not try other less intrusive methods for long enough, and resorted to something that should have been reserved for only when an HONEST effort in better methods for a period of time had failed them. i finally ranted about it. there!

i did watch the video clips, and they are very hard to see detail.  I would have to say in my honest opinion, it really could be confident dominance or fearful fight or a mix of both or a progression from one to the other. there is less than 5 min footage of a 2+ hour session. so being fair and objective of what went on is on the forefront of my mind.  do I think it is abuse.  'eh, it is definatley skirting and dancing on the fine line in that grey area, FOR ME.  if you feel it was abuse, i am NOT  here to change your mind.  i was NOT there to see it for myself, and it is still a far cry from what this horse has been living with i am sure. I wish it didn't happen, i wish he quit sooner, I wish I wish I wish, disney has a song about those.  fairy tales and dreams are where wishes live. 

so gee, did i anser the question.  is there a strong tendancy to call a horse that doesn't run away dominant.  ok.  from what you see yes.  of the people who are compelled to defend pat, if that is what they are saying then yes, this group of people do. i have heard few of them think about the possibility of the 'fight" side of fear, especially in a stallion.  in nature, if you show the other stallion your afraid, then you are either left for dead, or dn't get to procreate because the other one stole all your mares.

this doesn't account for those that have no desire to debate, defend or comment on the matter though


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## tongue~n~cheek (15 July 2010)

tongue~n~cheek said:



			phase 2 wiggle rope from roPe to what touches the ground, phase 3 wiggle QUOTE]

this should read

phase 2 wiggle rope from HAND to what touches the ground,
		
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## tongue~n~cheek (15 July 2010)

fburton said:



			I would say you're doing pretty well! 

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THANKS, i am exhaused, but it doesn't compare to spending the last 10 yrs trying to explain to my kid that wild pokemon dont roam the hills of japan, and WWE (wrestling) isn't real, up to and including a debate tonight!


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## tongue~n~cheek (15 July 2010)

pippinpie said:



			Well thats were you are totally wrong and misinformed, I was introduced to PNH by an experience ex owner of a BHS riding school, I myself are BHS trained and have 40+ years experience, and there are many like us, PNH can't chose its students, so if you have problems with some of their attitudes you can't blame the program for them.
The bottom line is this program works, it will not work for you if you are not looking for something better in your relationship with your horses and it won't work if you dont have an open mind to think outside the box, if you are happy in your box then thats OK but please don't knock others who want more.
		
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Ouch! two flames only makes a fire.  I feel your pain, I do, 10yrs and counting, but I prefer to fight fire with water.


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## tongue~n~cheek (15 July 2010)

fburton said:



			Hmm, isn't Parelli Natural Horsemanship just another box to be happy inside? Indeed, the program is _designed_ to be complete and self-contained, and - correct me if I'm wrong - students are actively discouraged from drawing on knowledge from other trainers. Of course, not all people who find Parelli useful follow that dictum; many pick and choose from a variety of sources, and that seems to work well for them too.

I guess I also find the suggestion that ditching everything to follow Parelli _necessarily_ will lead to an improvement in the relationship with your horse a little disturbing. Doesn't that imply a superiority to everything else?
		
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and three flames makes a wildfire

Doesn't that imply a superiority to everything else?

why yes

YES IT DOES

 and since we are NOT, we shouldn't be implying we are.

for all interested there is 48 thousand acre wild fire on the other thread, that is only .03% contained.


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## tongue~n~cheek (15 July 2010)

pippinpie said:



			Not sure how many of those comments are aimed at me but #1 There are many PNH students including myself who do look at all methods of working with horses, Participating in PNH does not require you to remove your brain in the process. #2 I have a life time of experiences to draw upon and I've not ditch them I have just enhanced them. For me life is a never ending learning curve, and if it suits me I don't care were I get my info from. 
If anything I wrote came across as me thinking I am superior, then that was not my intention, on the contrary actually.
		
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there we go


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## tongue~n~cheek (15 July 2010)

Morgan123 said:



			1) - friendly game. in the friendly game, you use the carrot stick to stroke the horse to give it a pleasurable feeling. when it stands still it is rewarded by you removing the stick stimulus.

I totally don't get that?! Surely if being stroked with a stick is so nice (which i can't see) then the removing it when they do the right thing is completely counter productive??!

2) "Using the friendly game, among others, the horse learns to stand still and trust the handler".

How is that the case? The horse is wearing a pressure halter (I know it's under another name, btu I've been repeatedly informed by Parelli people that you need it to do parelli as you don't get the same fine control in a normal headcollar, therefore it's basically working to create fine pressure and is therefore a pressure halter under another name), and the horse is learning that if it moves away from the carrot stick it gets pressure on its head. similarly when the friendly game is played with the rope flicking rather than the stroking stick, the horse stands becuase of the pressure on its head, not becuase it trusts its owner. maybe it learns the rope flicking is ok, but the initial thing that's happening is that it has to supress its fear, surely. otherwise you could play the games loose right form the start, if it really was trust. comments??

3) "using the moving away games (i think they're called the porcupine games among others) is typical of what mares do to teach their foals to move away from pressure."

I think that's really counter productive - cannot see how moving away is a 'game' for a horse and have certainly never seen a mare repeatedly asking ehr foal to move from left to right!!

4) Why does there have to be so much of the massively dominant movement of the hrose as in http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mwYAn4IH918 - this is very typical of parelli clips,. i never want my hroses to ever move away from me that quickly - if you compare it to herd behaviour in a field, it is most reminiscent of a subservient horse running away from e.g. its human or the water trough when it sees a very dominant and agressive horse approaching. I don't want my horses to see me as very dominant and agressive, i want them to see me as someone i can trust.

comments??

5) Linda parelli in partiuclar, but all the others too, do an awful lot of jerking nastily on their horse's halters. why adn what on earth are they trying to achieve? I would completely freak out if i saw someone do that to my horse wiht a thin rope halter - their heads are so sensitive!

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your welcome and thank YOU!

1) i don't get it either.  it is not what they teach, as this person has written it.  you rub them to get them not afraid of it, and it BECOMES a pleasureble feeling.  could be typo, I can assure you, writing isn't all it is cracked up to be!

2) yes, in it's broadest sense of the word it is a pressure halter.  but not a cruel halter.  it is soft, and if not used as a weapon, gentle.  for the most part, at least how I do it and understand it to be done by what they teach.  the friendly is about applying said scary object and not removing said object until the horse shows acceptance.  at first that acceptance may be a split second hesitation.  if you reward that, the next will be a second or two of standing, if you reward that, it becomes 4 second and so on, until the horse fully accepts it will not hurt them, and stands still unconditionally.  as taught, yanking on the halter is not part of the equation unless the horses behavior is a danger to you or him self, AND they are not listening to preasure aplied to halter more gently.  basically the halter is used only to keep the horse from leaving (isn't that the purpose of a halter anyways) (halt-her)
friendly is called sacking out or desensitizing.  it's purpose is to teach the horse that "things" will not hurt him, and that YOU will not hurt him with 'things".  it's practical uses are endless.  blanketing, trailering, doctoring and so forth. I and many others DO play friendly at liberty, quite often from the start.  depends on the horse, the environment and the handlers skill level.

3) the 'moving" games= porcupine(touch) and driving (suggestion no touch) are used by all horses with each other, the mother is just the first to do it.  I have seen horses be relentless with each other, but relatively harmless. and others attack for what appears no apparent reason, and do some serious damage.  my horses are covered with bite marks and kick scuffs. so far no serious damage in all these years. actually had more vet bills when everyone was in stalls.  these games simulate your leg aids, teach a horse to stay off of you or move when you ask by body language and touch.  every horse I have started under saddle, was able to do turns on the forhand and haunces on the first ride. quite lightly too i might add. it was very pleasing to me as a trainer to have this be this nice on the first day, rather than what it took years before my old way.

4) this video is old, and i don't like it either.  I commented on it in another answer.

5) my question is, if is a strong pressure and thier heads so sensitive, wouldnt you think they would give to it sooner?  I used to think so.  you would be surprised. some horses don't care, others freak out.  basically, before i would ask a horse to "stop" via the pressure of halter after a friendly game, i would teach it using the phases starting lightly to give to the halter.  you can't do anything with a horse if it wont stand still or follow you.  ie; stop and go. so before I would put pressure on a horse that could cause him to leave, he first needs to stay with me, with no pressure.

remember, its not the halter, its not the program, its the person on the end of the rope.  not ALL of us do that.  the linda video is only a small portion, very small, of the program and only in situations that become dangerous for anyone one involved. and only if nothing else works.


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## tongue~n~cheek (15 July 2010)

Hollycat said:



			I have only a few friends who are really into Parelli/natural horsemanship so I don't know if this is representative of Parelli or not.  My question is - why is there no verbal communication with the horse?  Maybe its just me being a chatty person but I find voice commands very useful, particularly when progressing something taught inhand to being taught under saddle under saddle - e.g teaching a youngster the command for trot on the lunge verbally can then be effectively used when asking for trot under saddle.
		
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for just that reason. humans are a vocal species, horses are not.  those of us that are chatty, or at least WELL trained in voice commands, as i was.  if we don't learn to be quiet, we have a hard time using our bodies, or learning to use them.  we accidently (i did) fall back on voice commands. i would say that they talk about reintroducing it once you are about level 3.  when you have a firm grasp of your other tools, you are ready to add it back into your vocabulary.  IF you are concerned with NH.  there is nothing wrong with vioce commands other than it is not within the nature of the horse. if you are learning to be like them, then you need to be like them.  as much as "humanly" possible.  it was once argued by me, for years, that horses don't saddle each other and go for a ride on each other, so how is being with horses natural at all.  at honestly i was just using it as a digg to nh'rs.  i used to anti-natural myself, and I could put any current bashers to shame in a nano second.  heck I practically invented nh bashing.  so I truley understand where anyone who feels that way is coming from.  i have been on both sides and know them both well.

anyways, yes a verbal command on the ground is easily transfered to saddle.  but parelli is about teaching humans, it is not saying voice commands are bad, just that you need to put that tool in the barn long enough to learn the others.


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## tongue~n~cheek (15 July 2010)

Snickers said:



			The thing I don't understand about Parelli is it's purpose... I've seen it used on 'problem' horses with no effect, and people who do Parelli don't seem to be in the same league, competition wise, as the traditional trainers... So it's not really about the riding, is it about having a polite horse?
		
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I think i may have answered this well in another answer, so if not let me know.

it is about learing the nature of horses.  it is a large vocabulary.  level one is abc's, level 2 forming words, level 3 sentences, and level 4 having conversations with your horse.  to be able to ask your horse to do something from 200ft away is a magical feeling.  for them to look at you  and say "this? put my foot on this?" is cool beyond all belief.

in the end, honestly, there should be no discernable difference between your horse and mine.  just another way to get there.  so yes, polite is a good goal, but we prefer to have a little more dialogue with our horses. not that anyone else doesn't.

lots of people don't have a desire to compete.  this is fun and challenging way to spend time with your horse, but still have a goal in sight.


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## tongue~n~cheek (15 July 2010)

Chavhorse said:



			Don't think this is Just a  Parelli thing.  My horse is with a Western trainer who uses a mixed bag of NH and common sense and he only uses verbal communication to either chastise "ehhhh" or praise "oh good so Vardi Man".

Like you I am a very chatty person and have made a conscious effort in the last few months to shut up a bit! and to be honest Vardi does seem to be responding to me a lot better when I am working him if I am quiet and when he does something well just give him the "good so Vardi Man" you actually feel him swell with pride beneath you....strange.
		
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in the end, at the end, it is up to each person whether to use or not use, and no it isn't exclusive to NH


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## tongue~n~cheek (15 July 2010)

SpottedCat said:



			Ok, so the O'Connor's are well known for being advocates of the Parelli movement. This is a video from their eventing camp. The clip obviously and repeatedly hits the horse - and there is no way the guy has a shoulder injury!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gqy7sSK0Y4c

This is the most recent example I have seen, many, many other videos exist which I am happy to spend the time finding if you can explain to me why this video reflects what I have consistently seen rather than what you describe above. This video reinforces my opinion of this being an unfair way of asking due to the equipment being used rather than the methodology, and I do not understand why a better way of fixing the rope to the halter has not been found if the purpose is getting the horse to back off using a moving rope rather than using the negative reinforcement of being hit round the head with a metal clip.

If the answer is 'they're doing it wrong' (which I accept could well be the case), why doesn't Parelli market gear where it doesn't matter if the handler gets it wrong - after all we've already established that many people who get into this are novices!

ETA: Many thanks for taking the time to do this - I'm not being deliberately difficult, just struggle to see why the chosen equipment is being used - the methodology is fine by me when it doesn't involve belting something round the head with a metal clip when it hasn't done anything wrong - it was stood still, a lot of the time we want the horse to stand still!
		
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WRONG WRONG WRONG! if this is you (not spotted cat) you are doing WRONG!

WTH! Ok.  first of all, I think that is david in the begining, 
'hello david where is phase 1-2 & 3?" not only was he not using the phases, he was TEACHING to not use phases. he has a great neutral.  if you  notice this horse, while respecting and backing, was getting more DULL not lighter.  this is used like this when the horse is CROWDING, which he wasn't, otherwise PHASE 1-2-3 FIRST. right from the get go. when the student took back over the horse crowed him, and ok, g'head.  the student was actually using lighter phases, BUT didn't release when the horse responded. that is why this horse got irritated.  first david did not give him a chance to respond at a lighter phase, then the student didn't recognise the try at a lighter phase. i would be irritated too!  while the oconnors were affiliated, and still may be, in a way with parelli, this is NOT what parelli teaches.  while some may do this, they are doing it wrong.  so if this is what you look like playing the yo-yo, read up on phase ONE  and rewarding  the TRY.

as for the clip hitting, yes it does hit the horse a few times, but it isn't reapeated.  it looks like it it hitting, but is just swinging round.  honestly, if you really want to know if it does hit the horse you just have to try for your self.  i am not saying it doesn't, i am saying it takes alot of effort, to get that clip to hit a horse repeatedly.  ALOT.  and skill to do it just once when YOU want to.

and the snap is there for if you ever need the effectiveness.  they are designed to no actually not be hitting the horse repeatedly.


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## tongue~n~cheek (15 July 2010)

thank you all for your kudo's, really, thank you.
thank you to the other parelli contributers.
dialogue, not war. i love it.
i hope you all know, I don't expect you to agree with me.  just see it for what it is.  if you stil hate it, me, pat, i respect your descision


nighty night, catch you on the flip side


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## eahotson (15 July 2010)

You might actually (if you have the time) go to the tag ends of the other Parelli posts.There is beginningto be SOME acceptance by both traditionalists and the  Parelli camp that at least if we can't agree ,we can disagree peacefully.That not all practitioners of Parelli are slavish to Pat and Linda and that we all want the same in the end, to do the best by our horses.
This dominance issue.Don't we all dominate our horses to some degree.You may want your horse to go in a trailer so you can go to a show.Most of us try and do this kindly.Showing the horse that there is nothing to be afraid of and driving consideratly.HOWEVER at the end of the day, you require him to go in the trailer.You are not really giving him a choice.
I have lost count of how many trads say For sure I give him a whack if he misbehaves.Whats that but dominance really.We do itwith dogs, cats children anyone we feel resposible for.We give them some degree of freedom.I always think of my horses field time as HIS time and as far as possible his box as HIS home.When I take him out to ride that is MY time.The price he pays for the lovely lifestyle he has generally.
You need to be able to say NO to children for many reasons, not least there personal safety.To the 3 year old NO you may not cross that busy road on your own.
When out on a hack you need to be able to say to your horse NO you may not turn round and bolt for home simply because you don't like the look of that lorry.Its simply not safe either for you or him.
There is a check and balance to all of this.Over dominance becomes bullying which is what I PERSONALLY (And I accept that other people may not agree) happened to Pat at that demo.
I would also question Roberts role in all of this.MANY REASONS.One is though.Its stated by someone on the other post that his friend practises Parelli and he wanted to give it a shot with Catwalk but that he didn't stay for the demo.Well if I wanted to try Parelli methods I would have made sure I stayed for the demo.It doesn't make sense otherwise and I quite agree with the OP it certainly does seem that Robert has no interest at all in any form of ground work.


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## Orangehorse (15 July 2010)

TnC I think you have given some excellent, thoughtful answers to the questions, well done.

I haven't got involved with Parelli as I doubt my ability as a trainer, and I thought that there was too much to go wrong if "done at home" without supervision of an experienced trainer.  But I know people who have had terrific success with previously difficult horses, and the horses canter towards their owners in greeting when they see them.

I think we are all in agreement that the Catwalk demo went seriously wrong.


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## eahotson (15 July 2010)

P.S TIC.Think the mellowing is maybe due to this post.


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## drover (15 July 2010)

Hi tounge in cheek,

I am interested to hear your thoughts on the lowering of standards in the parelli world in a huge way with levels and the fact that it is so so easy to become an instructor.

10 years ago the quality of the instructors was very high but now anybody with money can get endorsed regardless of knowledge, skills or experience.

I have been in this side of the industry for over 20 years and the parelli thing started great but in particular over the last few years the materials taught and quality of instructors has dropped in a big way.

I learned from some the great horsemen that pat learned from and originally pat was doing a pretty good job of passing on that knowledge(although expensive) but know its incredibly watered down it seems just to make more money from selling heaps more dvds.

I know from my many friends world wide that are still involved with parelli that some of the new instructors have not even completed and passed the new level 2 system and are out there teaching and charging for 'online' instruction.

As my teacher R.H. would have said it should be quality and not quantity you offer (he was refering to the horse but it really refers to most things)


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## teddyt (15 July 2010)

Apologies first that i havnt read all of this thread  so if this has been asked and answered then please point me in the right direction.

The whole 'keep it natural' thing.... What exactly is natural about the methods used by PP at that demonstration?  The excuse i have read is people dont understand what they saw but he was there to teach people- so does that men he wasnt doing a very good job at teaching? 

I have also read that extreme horses need extreme techniques. From several videos that stallion didnt look very extreme to me- way off the dangerous and was going to be shot until saved by PP view that i have also read. And even if he was extreme- why those techniques? Its not natural or empathetic. 

To me it was a man with an ego trying to prove he could do a miracle cure of a problem. And it went wrong. What place do those techniques have in a natural training method?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CyF2QqP29DU

Another question- how is this natural? LP is leaning back to put more and more force into that rope. The horse is totally confused. What is she trying to achieve? The horses head is being bruised and yanked continually in her efforts.


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## pippinpie (15 July 2010)

tongue~n~cheek said:





pippinpie said:



			Well thats were you are totally wrong and misinformed, I was introduced to PNH by an experience ex owner of a BHS riding school, I myself are BHS trained and have 40+ years experience, and there are many like us, PNH can't chose its students, so if you have problems with some of their attitudes you can't blame the program for them.
The bottom line is this program works, it will not work for you if you are not looking for something better in your relationship with your horses and it won't work if you dont have an open mind to think outside the box, if you are happy in your box then thats OK but please don't knock others who want more.
		
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Ouch! two flames only makes a fire.  I feel your pain, I do, 10yrs and counting, but I prefer to fight fire with water.

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I find that very patronising TL, I gave straight facts, why is that so wrong? It certainly was not inflammatory or was not intended to be, but some times other people make statement that are just not right, I have the right to say what the real facts are and I thought I did that in a mannerly way.


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## rhino (15 July 2010)

t~n~c thank you for your reply, you have answered many questions on this thread that other people have been unwilling or unable to answer before.

I understand a lot of the reasoning you have given and perhaps if I had a problem horse I would be even more aware. Luckily I have a horse with near perfect manners.

Although you have dashed my dream of travelling to see wild pokemon in their natural habitat..


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## Bay_Beasty (15 July 2010)

roo2012 said:



			t~n~c thank you for your reply, you have answered many questions on this thread that other people have been unwilling or unable to answer before.

I understand a lot of the reasoning you have given and perhaps if I had a problem horse I would be even more aware. Luckily I have a horse with near perfect manners.

Although you have dashed my dream of travelling to see wild pokemon in their natural habitat..
	
	
		
		
	


	








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Mine tooo and I so badly wanted my own Pikachu......sad, sad times......


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## catkin (15 July 2010)

Thank you TnC for taking the time to explain so well and dispassionately and for being thought-provoking.

I have always had difficulty with the semantics and labels being bandied about (being defensive myself here I guess) 
'natural horsemanship'? - my horses don't live naturally, but I have brought them into this life so it's my responsibility to make it as comfortable for them as possible using whatever tools we need for OUR particular circumstances;
 the phrase 'playing' with horses has always made me feel a bit queasy - as I interpret that as the crazy bucking, galloping games they do with each other out in the field - me, I'm not a playmate, I'm just this weird alien being who they usually like to associate with 'cos I feed them, groom them, entertain them perhaps.

On the equipment side, I wonder how many of us can honestly say we have NOT bought something because of the branding........
I certainly have, and I can be extremely fussy about the design of equipment as, like lots of people, I have found that some things work, for me, better than others (for example, I know I am more effective longreining with terrets on a roller rather than D-rings).

Thank you for the explanation of the use of the voice - this is something that has always confused me about the Parelli system as it is an aid I have been taught and encouraged to use since I was a child (decades ago now). 

Can you please clarify that I have understood this correctly - it is discouraged at the beginning to allow concentration on bodylanguage but then used later if required. I'm interested because an old nagsman I had the good fortune to be taught by years ago used to use the voice in two very distinct ways, a soft murmuring when reassuring/gentling a horse and a crisp 'request' like trot-on, stand, back, which was to be clear and not surrounded with 'chit-chat' - the rest of the time you were silent around the horses.


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## ponynuts (15 July 2010)

tongue~n~cheek said:



			"Maybe you are too afraid to ask, because you feel like the "method" will be crammed down your throat as you all know, we are the fastest growing "cult" since Jesus. "

I am truley sorry, I forgot for a moment I was on a new forum, and you all are not used to my humorus sense of sarcasm.  that was wrong on my part. sorry

I honestly find the whole "cult" thing rediculous, as Pat and Linda are not THAT good to have created a "cult", though I agree it does apear that way, and at times, even to some us.
		
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I think it is quite appropriate you use the term "cult" - which would support my theory that all followers of Parelli have been brainwashed!  This would explain your completely lame reasons for this despicable demonstration of, domination of an innocent animal with brute force and 'crass' showmanship.  If you are making a living from dishing out this rubbish, I would sincerely hope that you are able to diversify quickly and find a new use for your 'carrot stick' - because when people see this fiasco for themselves, they will at least have the courage to admit they have been 'scammed' by a couple of real cowboys!


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## SophieRIDSH (15 July 2010)

tongue~n~cheek said:



			to be honest, it takes quite a bit of effort to get that clip to hit a horse in the head. the mjority of rope shaking you see the clip doesn't hit the head.  I agree with you.  if it did, I wouldn't do it. for someone wildly shaking the rope about, in order for the clip to make contact, as often as yu suggest, they likely will have a shoulder injury when done.  I personally pop a horse once with it after asking nicely, repeatedly to stay off me or back up. no reply...pop...I usually do not have to ask again.  the entire purpose of "all that rope wiggling" is to stay safe.  to get the horse off of you.  alot of people can't keep a horse off of them, and even with a quiet horse, it could be dangerous.  level one is about safety, from there things are refined.
		
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In one of the "Barney" videos Linda can be heard to say "Oh, good clunk" as the clip hits the horse in the chin

FWIW, if I want a horse to move her body I apply an aid to her body. I might even clunk a whip to her chest if a less fourceful request to back up is ignored.

The most common first reaction to a clunk on the horse's chin is that the horse moves her head, usually up.  Barney demonstrates this quite clearly.

Anyway, it's 9:30 AM on the east coast USA and I really should be cleaning stalls and getting mares in.  We are expecting a high of 95F or about 35C.  I'm really procrastinating


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## Bay_Beasty (15 July 2010)

ponynuts said:



			I think it is quite appropriate you use the term "cult" - which would support my theory that all followers of Parelli have been brainwashed!  This would explain your completely lame reasons for this despicable demonstration of, domination of an innocent animal with brute force and 'crass' showmanship.  If you are making a living from dishing out this rubbish, I would sincerely hope that you are able to diversify quickly and find a new use for your 'carrot stick' - because when people see this fiasco for themselves, they will at least have the courage to admit they have been 'scammed' by a couple of real cowboys!
		
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welcome to the forum pony nuts.... are you are long term lurker first time poster?


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## SophieRIDSH (15 July 2010)

ORANGEHORSE said:



			The thing to remember that in the USA an awful lot of accepted practice was more in the "ride him cowboy" vein.  There are rodeos of bucking cattle and horses on the TV for one thing, so obviously a horse has to be "broken" to make it ridable.  The same goes for Mark Rashid, and Mr. PP, who showed that horses don't have to be treated harshly and got an awful lot of people to have happy successful relationships with their horses.

I can remember one lady from the USA who was over in the UK doing a clinic, when someone asked if they were hurting their horse when doing an exercise, replied by saying "Lady you cannot hurt your horse by doing that, you don't want to hurt your horse.  If you did want to hurt your horse, then take a chain and beat it until it falls to the ground, which is what I have seen in the USA."  So THAT is the culture where PP/Monty Roberts, etc. is coming from and they have succeeded in the most part by showing that there is a different, kind way to treat horses.
		
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The "Cowboy" style is only a VERY small segment of riding in the USA.  Shall we judge all UK horsemen by the Travelers at the Appleby Fair?


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## Bay_Beasty (15 July 2010)

SophieRIDSH said:



			The "Cowboy" style is only a VERY small segment of riding in the USA.  Shall we judge all UK horsemen by the Travelers at the Appleby Fair?
		
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I personally, after reading this post, and some of the other post, but cant read it all. I have come to the conclusion that judging someone on one thing generally results in a poor judgement made. I.e. I am not a parelli-ite and don't really like Pat or Linda very much, however, T n C has opened my eyes a bit more, and reading into some of her posts I realise that her purpose for following the parelli route was not for profit, fame, glory and boasting, but because she wanted to get the best relationship out of her horse(s) as possible and this is the way she thought she could achieve this. Although its not the way I would choose, as I have found that in the past, esp so with my late Dougal, I had a brilliant, very trusting relationship with no carrot sticking involved, but some stern words and some tellings not askings and a great deal of trust, which was reciprocated, I can understand, why people would choose parelli. 

Back to my point, to judge T n C purely on the fact she does Parelli, is as arrogant and rude as some people think Parellis are to them. I have changed my opinion on Parelli, and will from now on be looking at the person, not the label. I am a christian and I would hope that people would not make assumptions on that fact and get to know who I am first. I think T n C has done a brilliant thing here, opening calm, friendly and necessary discussion about Parelli. You can see how my attitude has changed through the post, it is obvious.


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## tongue~n~cheek (15 July 2010)

teddyt said:



			Apologies first that i havnt read all of this thread  so if this has been asked and answered then please point me in the right direction.

The whole 'keep it natural' thing.... What exactly is natural about the methods used by PP at that demonstration?  The excuse i have read is people dont understand what they saw but he was there to teach people- so does that men he wasnt doing a very good job at teaching? 

I have also read that extreme horses need extreme techniques. From several videos that stallion didnt look very extreme to me- way off the dangerous and was going to be shot until saved by PP view that i have also read. And even if he was extreme- why those techniques? Its not natural or empathetic. 

To me it was a man with an ego trying to prove he could do a miracle cure of a problem. And it went wrong. What place do those techniques have in a natural training method?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CyF2QqP29DU

Another question- how is this natural? LP is leaning back to put more and more force into that rope. The horse is totally confused. What is she trying to achieve? The horses head is being bruised and yanked continually in her efforts.
		
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I am not yet prepared to fully discus the actual events that took place.  mainly because "I" am still discusing it with my self.  the things that I feel and my opinions, that likely cannot be changed about the incident I have already stated in a previous post last night.  but I did explain my opinion on the 'extreme problem/extreme solution"

unlike many other threads that are heated in nature, this thread really should be read page by page. post by post.  for me and some others, it has evolved in a wonderful way.  the way people should be talking to each other, while discusing important issues.  please read the thread, if you still have questions, by all means ask me again


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## tongue~n~cheek (15 July 2010)

pippinpie said:



			I find that very patronising TL, I gave straight facts, why is that so wrong? It certainly was not inflammatory or was not intended to be, but some times other people make statement that are just not right, I have the right to say what the real facts are and I thought I did that in a mannerly way.
		
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I think you did too.  I don't think you did anything 'wrong".  the box comment sets people on the defensive.  And I know YOU didnt start it.  you said it in defense.  then it was "misunderstood".  

it is just the point I have been trying to make for YEARS with other parelli students. if you dont want people to think that you think you are superior, than things like the box statement are best left unsaid.  the rest was fine.  and the person took it just how I have seen it taken thousands of times.  you did appologise in a later post as that was not your intention, which I gathered it wasn't, even when I posted that.  but again that proves my point.  IF that truely is not your (ours as parelli students) intention, wouldn't you want to not say things that start the emotions going.  yes it is in defense.  but two wrongs dont stop a war.  many soldiers die on the field so that the powers that be can enjoy the fruits of thier sacrifce.  I for one am not going to do things that make people hate ME so that pat can sit on fat wad of money.  i do everything i can, no matter how bad someone treats me (regarding hroses) to not make it worse.  

I am truley sorry if you felt flamed.  as philosophically you are right!

nearest as I can tell the only box I have seen in horses, is the one my dvd's came in.


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## Caledonia (15 July 2010)

I'm impressed at your patience, t'nc, thank you for your replies. 




			the very BASIC gist.
left brain extrovert(confident/energetic/naughty)= play with me 
left brain introvert(confident/lazy/stubborn)=what is in it for me
right brain extrovert(unconfident/terrified/crazy/on crack)=focus me
right brain introvert(undonfident/quiet/unpredictable)=be gentle with me. (you can NEVER hit this horse, break his confidence in you and it could take a year to get it back
		
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It was interesting to read the breakdown of the left/right/introvert/extrovert brain labels. I can see how that would be helpful to a degree for the inexperienced owner; ie to have it pointed out to them their horse's 'type' so they understood their horse's boundaries. 

However, here's the first but; if they can't figure it for themselves without labelling, how can they figure it from the DVDs? 

And my second but; the four types are not nearly enough. Reading a horse is far more complicated than that. 

With it spelled out I can sweepingly identify each horse I have ever worked with within one of those boxes, but also some horses that can switch between the two. I have one that goes from mostly confident/lazy/stubborn to occasionally unconfident/quiet/unpredictable, it happens like lightning, and if I was inexperienced and continued with the assumption I was still dealing with box 1, I could well be very squished. 

I do understand you are saying this is a basic breakdown, but I think what I'm struggling to say is that these labels are dangerous if incorrectly applied or misunderstood, and if a programme suggests that you can learn this via DVD, it has to be missing something. 

Back in the non Parelli world, most successful trainers and horsemen (in all disciplines) read their horses and those of their pupils. It's part of the brief, and the biggest clue out there for working with horses, IMO. But that is done on a real level, face to face, with the opportunity for the trainer/rider to see and adjust. 

I think the less experienced buy into the idea, which in essence is a good IDEA, but not so great in practice if you don't have the innate understanding of the horse in the first place. As others have said in various places, the horses that I have seen that seem to mostly cope with Parelli seem to be resigned to their fate, not alert and sharing the 'bond', they appear worried to put a foot wrong. 
Unfortunately some of those that haven't coped have turned into confused and angry animals, whose trust and desire to please has long gone, because those using the tools don't understand what they are doing.

This is where Parelli fails the horses for me.


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## baymareb (15 July 2010)

tongue~n~cheek said:



			as for the clip hitting, yes it does hit the horse a few times, but it isn't reapeated.  it looks like it it hitting, but is just swinging round.  honestly, if you really want to know if it does hit the horse you just have to try for your self.  i am not saying it doesn't, i am saying it takes alot of effort, to get that clip to hit a horse repeatedly.  ALOT.  *and skill to do it just once when YOU want to.*

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This has been mentioned before but I think it bears mentioning again.  When a method is marketed to inexperienced people, it makes sense to make it very easy to use and very hard to make terrible mistakes.  Whacking a horse in the face with a clip seems to me a mistake that would be bad to make.  However, if it's something that requires a lot of skill to do correctly, it seems a poor set-up for those novices.

I don't have any objection to using a well-timed smack to correct a horse but I am extremely careful about aiming it at the face.  I also want far more precision in any correction that I use than I could get from swinging a rope with a metal clip on it from a distance, especially when it is admitted that it takes a great deal of skill to do it properly.

This is an interesting thread because it is nice to read some explanations from a Parelli person that are not either defensive or simply "you don't understand."  Ultimately however, it has not convinced me of any real value to the method as opposed to any other.  In fact, I see some distinct disadvantages, one of which is the confusion that results when a horse trained with Parelli methods is handled by someone who does not use those same methods.  

For instance, when I lunge my mare, I expect her to stop on the circle rather than turn to face me which it seems is the norm in Parelli training.  Most people know ask their horse to back by pressing a hand on their chest and saying "back," not by shaking the lead at them.  Etc.  That method works fine and I see no real need for a change in it.  I'm not sure what the advantage is to having a horse back when you wiggle a rope at it as opposed to simply asking it to do so.

Not to say there aren't good ideas among all the other stuff but I've not seen enough to convince me that I need to change my whole approach to horse handling.  And the good things I've been able to glean are the common sense approaches I've seen used in so many other methods.


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## SirenaXVI (15 July 2010)

Firstly I have not read all of this thread but I am very impressed with TNC's measured and educated replies - thank you.

Secondly, I have never ever studied parelli, but having read the description of the 'friendly' game, I am surprised as I do this will all my youngsters


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## Bay_Beasty (15 July 2010)

SirenaXVI said:



			.

Secondly, I have never ever studied parelli, but having read the description of the 'friendly' game, I am surprised as I do this will all my youngsters

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Off course you do, you do not need to do parelli to have a bond with your horse and to teach him manners...... this is not meant to be rude I hope I have put my point across properly


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## SirenaXVI (15 July 2010)

bay_beasty said:



			Off course you do, you do not need to do parelli to have a bond with your horse and to teach him manners.
		
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Phew!  I thought for a moment I had inadvertently gone over to the dark side 

Sorry TNC that was a 'tonque in cheek' comment and I meant no offence to you


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## tongue~n~cheek (16 July 2010)

pippinpie said:



			Originally Posted by Caledonia  
I'd really like to know what your opinion as a horseman is on this video. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mwYAn4IH918

I have just seen this video and I am upset as most of you but the last comment is spot on: 
This is a&#65279; very old clip, and I am not condoning what's going on but I can say that Parelli Natural Horsemanship is an ever evolving program, I'm sure Pat will agree that not every thing he did in the past is/was good, we all learn from our mistakes and I'm sure Pat Parelli is no exception
		
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very nicely said, I ditto that!  Pat is not immortal, he is just as human as the rest of us.


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## tongue~n~cheek (16 July 2010)

pippinpie said:



			As T n C is in USA the time line does not allow her to answer questions as they crop up, so I hope I'm not poking my nose in here. But I will give my slant on this post:

The CS is used like an extention of your own body/arm and the horse learns to accept it with no fear, CS are never used to hit the horse that would be counter productive, it is also used amongst other things to drive your horse like you would with you own arm/hand.
Horses are very aware of your body language and they soon learn what 'neutral' means, neutral is the release, so after you have got a try from your horse after asking him to do something it is the reward.


The rope halter is the best bit of equipment I have ever used, it is greatly misunderstood, fitted correctly it is both gentle and effective, gentle when used in knowlegable hands and effective when more control is needed.
Horses soon learn that the that if they resist it will put as much pressure as they are resisting back on them, then when they relax they get imediate release, they become more polite and attentive. 95% of what I do with my horses is done with no pressure at all and only 5% will be with slight pressure as they have respect without fear for it.
You really need to understand the reasoning behind the prey animal instinct to understand why horses become fearful and so many times horses are punished and pushed through thressholds that we may not even have noticed, how would you like to be standing on the edge of lets say a diving board worried about jumping in and someone come up behind you and gives you a push, how would you feel? would you trust that person again?
For safety and respect I horse must learn not to crowd on top of you, and the driving game is used to move the horse away from you in much the same way as horse do themselves.

No comment I didn't like it either!
I too found that short clip on YouTube unsettling, but I have seen the much longer unedited version, although hard to watch even for me I understand what she was trying to do, and she did achieve it by the way, she wanted the horse which beforehand was becoming dangerous to its handler and the others that were in its near vicinity, the horse got distracted to the point were humans did not even exist, so Linda took over and tried to gain its attention and some recognition that she was even there, I could go on but as I would have done it differently I won't defend it further, also that was an old video and I'm sure that Linda would now do things better.

It can have such great rewards, even little kids can do it : 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LdTFLSONfHY&feature=related
What a relationship. full of love and trust.
		
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Not poking nose in. can use all the friendly help I can

other than the linda video part, I agree with all said.  I am procrastinating commenting on Pat and Linda, and I promis I will get to it.  so if that is your question, sighs, my opinion is coming.

sometimes you just have to put bathing at the top of your list!


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## tongue~n~cheek (16 July 2010)

mystiandsunny said:



			Could a Parelli person explain this please? http://fuglyblog.com/   today's entry - the video.
		
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I wish I could, but I can't.  first, I honestly can't see much.  it is too grainy, and there is not enough footage of anything, for me to see the "why" in it myself.  I have never seen pat nor anyother practitioner use a gum line, and by the lack of viewing quality, I wouldn't know he was using one, if I had not read that he was.  I am not yet ready to comment much on this.  as most people who understand parelli, as I have read on the parelli forum, it is above our level of expertise. and this is not taught to us in the program.  I have stated in the other thread how i feel about some other things about the incident, and when I have made my mind up for myself, i will coment further then.  I guess you can click on my "name" and read my posts from my profile.  the majority about the incident are in my first 10 posts.

but I can say, from what I have read, that he was taking away the horse "flight'.  that he WAS using phases.  and rewarding when he reached forward.  i know that sounds patronising, but since I would never do that, it makes little to no sense to me.  the reason why I don't want to even really try more than that, is I fear this will come off as more parelli mindless drivvle, that I am sure has been stated by other students trying to defend pat.  I am in NO way going to do THAT.  I simply cannot explain what I don't understand. and I cannot be any more honest than that.


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## tongue~n~cheek (16 July 2010)

narkymare said:



			as a novice reading and trying to learn - i ve watched latest parelli and wouldnt want my horse tied up - i love him, im on montys forum  and respect him much more - i do not think he would hurt a horse to prove his point  - as a total novice i could not trust these parellis xxx
		
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well, as I have said before, what you are seeing, is not what they teach, i can assure you that.  but everyone has to live within thier comfort zone.  if this makes you uncomfortable, then you likely would not get the most out of it and it would be a waste of your time. not everyTHING is for everyONE,  and that should be OK withe EVERYone.


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## tongue~n~cheek (16 July 2010)

SirenaXVI said:



			Phew!  I thought for a moment I had inadvertently gone over to the dark side 

Sorry TNC that was a 'tonque in cheek' comment and I meant no offence to you 

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LOL, truley, I laughed.  I have a great sense of humor.  and it actually makes me all warm and fuzzy inside, that we have come to a place, where people here, anti parelli, "feel" me and dont' want to offend me.  thank you it means alot to me.  and even more should mean something to any parelli students reading this.

you don't comand respect, can't demand respect. you can only EARN respect.


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## tongue~n~cheek (16 July 2010)

flamehead said:



			Am i the only person who cant see the movie, only a green screen?
		
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try this one, same thing
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5gf7w_1ifus


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## tongue~n~cheek (16 July 2010)

Naturally said:



			HHO is a playground where people who don't care about horses bludgeon them into submission.

Generalisations like that really don't get anyone anywhere. 

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hmmm


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## tongue~n~cheek (16 July 2010)

Naturally said:



			I use similar equipment, and have tried it with both kinds, so can speak for myself and my grounsdskills methods in reply to this, if its any use.

12ft rope. What can I say apart from it handles differently? Its personal preferance again - I have no doubt a lunge line and whip would work, and see no reason people starting out can't use one. My reasons for using the 12ft lines are that when I use a lunge line, which is a lot lighter, it doesn't move the same way. I was also taught to allow the horse some drift, i.e. the rope to feed through your hands, not so easy with my lunge line which has handy stops to prevent this exact same thing. Incidentally, my 12ft rope is attached like this:

http://www.naturalhorsesupply.com/attachlead.htm

to avoid any metal clip smacking the horse in the face.

ETA: My 12 and 22ft lines were the main thing I spent my student loan on that year!  They didn't come from Parelli, but they weren't much cheaper than theirs. However they have lasted really well, including surviving when some idiot left it in a pool of horse pee for a week when she borrowed it. 

I agree with you that its a lot of money to spend on the equipment, and people could easily suffice with cheaper versions. none of mine is parelli branded, I found it all cheaper elsewhere. Its sad to hear of parelli instructors who won't teach you unless you have the branded kit  On the whole though, its generally the case that as people get into a new thing, they want to use and buy all the brand new, right equipment. Materialistic, yes, but true.

As for the cost of the DVDs, well yes it is a lot of money, but it includes a fair heft of material. my main objection to the retail of all the parelli stuff is that there are people who will buy the DVDs and the starter pack and think they are the next, well, pat parelli  you really can't substitute face to face lessons with DVDs, in my opinion, not when you're working with horses.
		
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yes many different "brands" home made to choose from.  I personally dont like the big fat stiff rope halters.  I have a hard time keeping them tied, and find my self playing at liberty when it wasn't the plan.

ebay is a great place fo discounts too.


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## tongue~n~cheek (16 July 2010)

Snickers said:



			The thing I don't understand about Parelli is it's purpose... I've seen it used on 'problem' horses with no effect, and people who do Parelli don't seem to be in the same league, competition wise, as the traditional trainers... So it's not really about the riding, is it about having a polite horse?
		
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the purpose, is learning the nature of the horse, developing skills to be safe and have fun with your horse.  they teach principles before the goal. in other words, not puting your goals before the needs of the horse.  since the program is not desinged to be "performance" based, as opposed to foundation based, you likely are seeing what is the beginning of people learning performance.

you also have to account for people who also may not be following the program and skipping ahead.  these would be the dabblers.  now i am not saying that dabbling leads to inferior ridding.  what I am saying, is just because someone is carrying a carrot stick, doesn't mean that they represent the program.

I know of many, wait lets put a figure on this for understanding sake.

back in my days when I was performing, at the lower levels, I would say that 80% were not much to look at.  who do we blame for that?  parelli/NH had no involvement in thier inferiority or lack of skills. moving up to the next level, maybe only 70% were, uh, needing some serious lessons. fast forward to the upper levels, and we only had say 40%.  I have seen some horrid, HORRID, international level dressage riders.  who's fault is that?

maybe these people are not listening to the instruction they are given, or simply will never be that good.  lets face it, not everyone is a talented rider, even if they have 5 lessons a week for years (yes i have seen that too)

my point is only this.  the lack of skill also lies in the hands of the one lacking, not just thier teacher.  each situation will be an individual "reason" for inferiority.


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## tongue~n~cheek (16 July 2010)

thelwell_girl said:



			Sorry, havent read the other replies, so not sure if this has already been asked.

Why is there so much 'stuff' (sticks, ropes, halters etc) you have to buy in Parelli? I dont know much about NH at all, so would be really interested to hear your response!

T_G x
		
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well, the equipment they sell has a certain feel to it.  the halter is to help have a light feel, and discourage a horse from leaning on it, but is still gentle when not being leaned on.  the lead is about twice as long as regular lead rope.  this has several purposes.  one is so you can allow more drift with a horse.  people with horses that crowd often do not realize that they are infact pulling the horse on to them, by not having enough rope to give the horse the space to stay away.  i have noticed accross the board that the average place to hold a lead rope is about half way down, no matter how long or short it is.  so if your lead is only 6ft long, you horse will never be able to be more than 3ft from you, and since we tend to stay near the shoulder, you have just used half of that distance, now the horse is only a foot and a half away.  when they spook, not much room for error for the handler to get out of the way. so a longer rope gives you more space.  i think this is indeed the place whre the term "at the end of my rope" came fromLOL
also the extra rope becomes a tool.  lots of NHers don't use carrot sticks, they only use the end of the rope.  it then becomes the "lunge whip" for driving your horse, or the savvy string to play friendly with. but now that you are using way over half of the rope as a tool, you again find yourself pulling your horse on top of you, not having enough drift.

the carrot stick is used as an extension of your hand and can allow someone to safely start touch a 'crazy" horse and still stay at a safer distance. also for blocking a horse that still just has to be on top of you. the string can "add" an extra 6 feet to your reach for friendly, and also as a tool to use as lunging. the longer ropes are for, well, doing it all again at a longer distance from your horse. but the stick doesn't get longer, because now you are developing your body language and should be able to project your energy, rather than a "whip" to influance your horse.

do you have to have all of this to start? NO

you CAN start with your regular stuff (halter,lead,lunge whip) you just may have to work a little harder to get your point accross.  in the end of the program, when you truely have learned the principles of training, you can use anything as you understand how to use a tool.

I can grab anything and use it as a stick, from broom, to a pebble.  in the end, it isn't the tool, so much as the knowlege of how to influence a horse.

of course, not saying you need to do parelli to learn these things either, just that it is one way to learn how to do it.


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## tongue~n~cheek (16 July 2010)

touchstone said:



			Ditto this; T n C it takes a brave sould to stand up when everyone is being 'anti', but you've managed to state your case politely and honestly without being condescending to different viewpoints.   Some of the pro parelli replies have only served to make me turn further away from parelli, so thankyou for your well reasoned discussion.
		
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thank you. i try.  i fail miserably still sometimes, and have probably pissed off more parelli students at this point than parelli haters.

'eh, i try.  if i have offended ANY one, I am sorry.

I am not sure if I "tongue~n~cheek" has been noticed and mentioned on the parelli forum. I have tried to look, but seen nothing yet.  no news is good news I guess.


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## tongue~n~cheek (16 July 2010)

suze369 said:



			Yes also have to give credit to you T~n~C for taking the time (quite a lot of time) to answer questions 

I will watch the video later - I am about to go into a meeting I don't think it will be a good idea to go in crying!!

 I would be interested what other Parelliers (not already on HHO) think of this discussion and sharing of information like this. Maybe next we will be playing football on no-mans land...

At the end of the day we are all interested in horse and the passion about recent events is due to concern their welfare, and I am glad people have spoken up on either side about what has happened.
		
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thank you. I too would like to know how/if this is being recieved. don't even know if anyone has seen it.  I hope every one reads the whole thread, to see it's evolvment.  but i doubt, anyone will mention it.  they seem to be set on taking care of themselves right now, and rightly so.  as I said, to each of us, this incident means something differnt, in how it may or may not effect us individualy.  alot of thought provoking discussion going on. about EVERY aspect of the incident, from roberts involvement, whether or not pat followed his principles, if it could be classified abuse, if they were witnessing a master that they are not educated enoug to question.  some discussion about the other thread, and the nastiness of it.  but mostly just trying to sort out where to go from here. less about them~vs~us.

i think even though some ar leaving, they are all, including myself, still gratefull to pat and linda for what we have achieved with our horses using thier program. no one can ever take that away from us.

I bet they will be wondering who i am, if they have not already figured it out.  and I think if they ever do, they will be SHOCKED to know it is me.

I saw about 40 new signatures on the petition, and based on the remarks about how lowly we americans are, I am judging  they are from this thread.  I care not your opinions of us yanks, only that you care about the horse enough to sign the petition.  the person who created it is sad that more people would rather sign a petition to get rid of pat, than sign this petition.  honestly, i am too.  so thank you to any one who has signed it.

and BTW the canadians, do this with thier children and wild ponies!  but I havn't found much info on it yet, and suspect that the pony is mostly the victor in the race, not the 8-12yo's competing.  I would rather turn them in to child protective services than animal rights activists, but hey, that is just on persons opinion.

I aprciate any thanks given as I have given up my life this week for this/my cause, including personal cleanliness

I have to take a shower now and hit the sack, I smell!


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## actions-speak-louder (16 July 2010)

I found a mention about "cult" on another forum (see below) can you explain this "TIC" and can you also explain why students attending Stoneleigh courses are told they have to be faithful to the  PP discipline - disciples even! (dvd shown to students of PP preaching this).




			What a shame, this man who started a bit of a horse revelation, has an ego that got the better of him. This was to be the situation where we were all to be stunned and amazed, well PP achieved just that, and the damaged limitation began with a spin clip about breaking bread with the tor-mentor.   Why did he not big up and admit that this horse, was not a quick fix and was uncomfortable in this arena.  For a stallion his behaviour was not that bad, and he kept giving out the signs very politely, he reared when he had nowhere to left to go, he certainly didn't warrant a painful injury.  So why weren't the signs being read? The Parelli  EGO really did get the better of him in public this time. 

Oh dear, what started off as a nice gentle approach to dealing with horse issues, turned into a cult very quickly. The uniform of men in white cowboy hats and women wearing sun visors with their fringe over the top.   Savvy Clappy and diktats being issued about what you can and can't do, who you can and can't learn with, what you can and can't teach. Tight lipped professionals and students, almost being trained for this very moment.   You must be the party faithful, and now more than ever.

Facebook PP enthusiasts are alarmingly quiet about the event ... dare none of the party faithful wake up, have they been that brainwashed or has their world  been shattered?   I'm certainly not proud of my carrot stick. 

No wonder a lot of good and true horsemen and women left the organisation and set up on their own before they too were roped in.  They must all be breathing a sigh of relief today.

Once you fall from your pedestal the water is cold and deep, PP and the organisation must be in a bit of a quandary right now.  They need to be herd savvy, or will their ego and greed get the better of them once again and turn this into a  revenue opportunity  - will  Savvy club members soon be able buy their gum line and get the instruction book on how to tame a Stallion,  is this yet another course and yet another star. Kerr Ching!
		
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## pippinpie (16 July 2010)

tongue~n~cheek said:



			I am not sure if I "tongue~n~cheek" has been noticed and mentioned on the parelli forum. I have tried to look, but seen nothing yet.  no news is good news I guess.

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 Yes and I'm not the only one  Relax I'm not the Parelli Police as you put it  But it doesn't take much working out who you are, your doing a great job here, except 'tagging' a few of your fellows traveling on the same path
You definitely have the program at your heart, that really shows though in your patience and knowledge (I've seen some of your videos) I on the other hand would not have the time to put in so much effort as you in your excellent posts.
Thread readers have already thanked you and noticed your honesty and belief in your replies.


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## drover (16 July 2010)

drover said:



			Hi tounge in cheek,

I am interested to hear your thoughts on the lowering of standards in the parelli world in a huge way with levels and the fact that it is so so easy to become an instructor.

10 years ago the quality of the instructors was very high but now anybody with money can get endorsed regardless of knowledge, skills or experience.

I have been in this side of the industry for over 20 years and the parelli thing started great but in particular over the last few years the materials taught and quality of instructors has dropped in a big way.

I learned from some the great horsemen that pat learned from and originally pat was doing a pretty good job of passing on that knowledge(although expensive) but know its incredibly watered down it seems just to make more money from selling heaps more dvds.

I know from my many friends world wide that are still involved with parelli that some of the new instructors have not even completed and passed the new level 2 system and are out there teaching and charging for 'online' instruction.

As my teacher R.H. would have said it should be quality and not quantity you offer (he was refering to the horse but it really refers to most things)
		
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I would still like to hear your thoughts on this?

 My husband went to observe a clinic being taught by one of these instructors and he said the students were correcting the instructor on some of the teaching.

This is dangerous and a concern as its this kind of thing that also gives NH a bad name.


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## mystiandsunny (16 July 2010)

Why does everything Parelli take so long?  Working through each phase to get from A to B seems to take months.  I use traditional methods and common sense, and can get a spoilt, bolshy baby horse to turn into a sweet trying for me one, AND get it to the stage where it can walk/trot/canter/jump mini jumps (in an outline, listening to cues, balanced enough to turn, hack out), within a couple of months.  In the Parelli stuff it seems I'd still be working on teaching it the cues at that point!


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## pippinpie (16 July 2010)

actions-speak-louder said:



			I found a mention about "cult" on another forum (see below) can you explain this "TIC" and can you also explain why students attending Stoneleigh courses are told they have to be faithful to the  PP discipline - disciples even! (dvd shown to students of PP preaching this).
		
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 I'm sure TnC will answer your questions when she can, but as a Brit I can see your/some people's point of view, and this is not a knock the Americans post! but they do do things differently to us Brits, my first introduction to Parelli was at a celebration and I was hoping it would not be to 'happy clappy' affair as I know this really gets up a lot of people noses, me too, 'hands up if you...' yuck!  I hate the 'Savvy clap' that is used at the end of most sessions, (it was a bit but that didn't stop me from seeing deeply through all the showmanship that this was something special) It's just the way they do thing differently, A bit like what happened at the football world cup, most of the world hated the noise of those bl**dy Vuvuzela, but to the south Africans it was 'what they do' its their culture and see nothing wrong.
I can understand how Brits see this evangelical, all believing, worshiping as a cult. The word 'Cult' conjures up negative feelings in most peoples minds and therefor Parelli must be bad. I have watched programs of American preachers who whip the congregation into a frenzy with their shouting and spouting about religion, woowa not for me thank you!! some people like that sort of thing but I do think it doesn't go down as well here.
As a brit following the Parelli program I don't let the annoying cultural difference change my mind about how good the program is and what it can do for me, I take what I need and leave the bickering about, money, who's pulling the strings, where bad judgments have turned sour, the internet has its good and bad uses, but to the 'man in the street' who has all the teaching material (which I have by the way) need never listen to another word from Parelli ever again, so I think of it like this, would I really change my mind about the program if the people at the top are not everybody's cup of tea, no it makes no odds to me.
If I were on a desert island and heard nothing about the feeling surrounding both Pat and Linda, I would blissfully carry on with what I know is a good program.
I have only attended one one day course at Stoneleigh and that was a bit boring, repetitive, but I left with some very usefull knowlege, just wish it hadn't taken all day to get though. I have a very good filter capasity that lets only the things that matter to me in and lets the rest wash over my head 
I understand all your misgiving about PNH, I am old enough and wise enough not to let the wraping spoil the gift as it were, but novice and impresional yougsters are another ball game.


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## devon eventing girl (16 July 2010)

Hi Tongue n Cheek,

Are you a Parelli instructor or staff member???

I study NH as well as event and try to learn from the best available (parelli or other)
I would love to know what happens to cause all the really Talented horsemen to leave the Parelli organisation?

I studied with Honza, Dave Stuart-who I understand was Pats right hand man,
James Roberts- who is still with Parelli and Garry Stevens who started my challenging now 5yo eventer for me(I know he was teaching at stoneleigh as a 2* but now seems to have left also?).

Does Pat not want very talented  horsemen like these as part of the Parelli organisation??


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## SophieRIDSH (16 July 2010)

tongue~n~cheek said:



			if you take something out of context or sequence, it can lose all meaning or value.  but of course you are going to say yours is the best, if you didn't people wouldnt listen to you.  imagine this:

"I know alot of great things, you should learn from my ideas.  keep in mind I am no where near the best, in fact you can find all this info else where, at a better price, from a more knowlegabel person, with a better product"

how silly is that?
		
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FWIW, I like Clinton Anderson's take on this idea, comparing his method to getting a recipe from a friend

"I'm showing you how I make a cake.  If you use the tools I use and do exactly what I do you will get the same cake.  You can use different tools or ingredients or techniques and you still might get a very good cake, but it won't be the same cake."

WOW, I just went shopping P wants $40 for a halter....CA's are$25, and I do own several, different sizes


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## Hollycat (16 July 2010)

Thanks very much for your reply T n C.  My Parelli/NH friends could actually never tell me why verbal communication was discouraged so I am glad to have an answer.  Even if as a scientist and student of vet med I do not agree with the logic behind it I can see we will both be happy to agree to disagree on this issue   To follow this thinking that horses are not verbal communicators in the same way humans are - neither are dogs and yet 99% of people with dogs use verbal communication with them.  I bet the Parelli's also give voice commands to their dogs (if hey have them) - otherwise they probably have lots of chewed carrot sticks (joke).

As another poster said (sorry can't remember your name) you can improve your own skills by being quiet sometimes.  I have also found this, contrary to my nature though it is, so I do not discount training in silence. I just find that I need to select the best method for each individual horse and for myself at that particular time- and for me I do find voice commands very useful particularly with young horses. 

Everyone will train according to their own preferences.  I will borrow my friends Parelli DVD's and pick out anything new which I think is useful.  I don't have the personality to slaveishly follow 1 regieme and the thought of training with an instructor that could only use certain methods (even if these were not the best for the horse!!!) just because his guru says so brings me out in a cold sweat.  There is lots of me to learn from Parelli as there is with many other teachers.  I just need a horse to practice on now


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## tongue~n~cheek (17 July 2010)

I came across these on the savvy forum, and just wanted to say thank you.  I of course cannot thank you there, but did not want it to go unsaid.
So Thank You from the bottom of my Heart.



			
				P.......g said:
			
		


			ive had a look at the h+h forum and someone is answering questions, i have learned some stuff from her,her avatar name is tongue in cheek. wow, she is diciplined,honest and a good ambassador for parelli.She must be a peacemaker of some sort and feel proud of herself.in fact i havnt got a clue who she is but i am proud of her .whoever you are tongue in cheek well done for for attempting to put out the fire.
		
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				l............y said:
			
		


			Yes, tongue in cheek's thread is very good. You can almost feel the tension easing in her(?) refusal to get riled or disrespectful. A true ambassador. The early slagging didn't get a hold as she didn't respond - very emotionally fit! !
		
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				M......e said:
			
		


			I prefer Tongue'n cheeks thread which is far more calm and balanced without reverting to mud slinging on both sides (Well done Tongue'n cheek  )
		
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## tongue~n~cheek (17 July 2010)

pippinpie said:



			Yes and I'm not the only one  Relax I'm not the Parelli Police as you put it  But it doesn't take much working out who you are, your doing a great job here, except 'tagging' a few of your fellows traveling on the same path
You definitely have the program at your heart, that really shows though in your patience and knowledge (I've seen some of your videos) I on the other hand would not have the time to put in so much effort as you in your excellent posts.
Thread readers have already thanked you and noticed your honesty and belief in your replies.
		
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I guess it comes as no surprise to me that I am that transparent.  IF you are correct.  (pm me who you THINK I am) I may have changed some facts about me, to throw the dogs off my scent, but alas, I am no where as good at that as I prayed I would be. 

 I called the US Secret Services to inquire about my application to be a special agent.  They told me that it had been denied by everyone on the interview panel.  That if I were a Zebra in the middle of a 500 head zebra herd, I would be spotted in half a second. 

 To be honest, I dont know why I am afraid anyways.  It is awfully self centered of me to think that anyone even cares who I am or about this thread.  Dont know why I am afraid of punishment.  Sadly, as I have no valid reason to feel this way, but I am afraid, that because of this, I might not pass my auditions, or get kicked out, or, dare I ever change my mind and decide again that I want to pursue becoming a Parelli professional, that they would tell me to get lost.  That "I" don't have the right attitude.

Afraid I might take another unjust cyber beating by my online friends for throwing effort after foolishness.  That beating was the begining of the end for me.  That beating opened my eyes like they never were before..(wasn't blinded before) I was embarrased beyond all belief, and sick to my stomach for a month.  NEVER again will I put myself in that situation.  Not there.

I also am afraid of what Pat might think of me.  That is the silliest of all.  Seriously, he states loud and clear that it is not his problem what other people think of him.  So why should it be my problem what he thinks of me/this?  For god sakes my behavior is NOTHING as embarrassing as this fiasco.  But in my experience, in life, those are not the ones punished.  Part of me would love to take the credit for this thread.  But I trust no one.  Here, while my hands are a bit tied, I have never felt more liberated.  To say what EVER I want.  No one to judge me for questioning the almighty leader.  I am no fool.  I am no child.  I CAN think for myself.  I do NOT need anyone to tell me what I should or shouldn't think of this situation.

But, I have to say, it is hard to be your genuine self, when you cant be yourself.  It is hard to explain your stand with out being able to really draw on and share your own experiences as examples of the point you are trying to make.  I hope no one thinks in the end that I exaggerated or under rated for purposes other than that of hoping no one would know it was me. I hold honesty and truth to the highest of standards for my self, so some of this is hard for me.  but i hope everyone understands my position.

As for the 'tags'.  I tag my horse and i either get two eyes or two hooves.  I took a chance that a well intentioned tag would gain me two eyes And hopefully I have done no harm.

this is really important to me, as I have known for 10yrs that degrading another human being is no way to win them over.  talking down to or from a superior view, wouldn't help people to uderstand what you do and why you love it.  Snarky remarks only put people on the defensive, and as I am in someone elses world here, I am trying to respect that. to respect THIER point of view.  not force them to respect mine.  i cannot talk to them on OUR threads, as they do not reside there.  I would never go into someone elses house, whom I do not know, and belittle them or patronize them. not accusing anyone of doing this, only trying to heal 10 yrs of pain that I have witnessed.  trying to undo, what was done to me by naturals when I was a traditionalist. 

This war was started by NH'ers years ago.  there wouldn't be an anti-natural movement had we not started with our own patronizing words all those years ago.  WE started this, and it is US who should end it.  NOT the other way around.  WE should be the ones to extend the olive branch, not them.

When I read the very first reply on this thread, my adrenaline was pumping and I was shaking.  Thinking, dear god, what has my mouth gotten me into again?  Who am I to think that I can climb Mt Everest?
But now today after seeing that I am right, in the curiosity of people, that if given the opoprtunity to ask a question without feeling wrong for asking, without feeling like they will be made to feel wrong if they disagree with you, without feeling like they will be patronized (popular word here) that they WILL ask. 

I would imagine, for some here, it is a very brave thing to ask me a question, afraid of the ridicule from thier friends.  And all I can say is thank you. sitting here on page 20, after all of the wonderful messages I have recieved, and though I have only taken a couple of steps up that mountain, I can tell you Mt Everest no longer seems that big.  And it is only a perception of course.  Because no matter how brave you are, and even if you make it to the top of that mountain, it does not change the size of the mountain.  
And the thing that I think makes this so wonderful, is that the people who do make it to the top of Everest, it is only because of their perception standing at the bottom. 

So I cannot begin to explain my gratitude, to each and every one of you for your contribution, no matter what it was that you had to say or ask, you played an important part in making this dream of mine come true.

I am no one special. no one famous. (infamous maybe) I am just a small fish in a very large sea. And while this thread may be stuck inside it's own little bubble, I in no way think that this is going to solve this problem we are in the middle of, nor that I alone can stop a runaway train. I just thought that maybe if I sent an invitation, we could rally enough people together, join hands, and stop it together.

I honestly have to say, that here, in this last week, I have made a new friend, who told me that if I was attacked, there are a fair deal of people here, traditionalists, who would stand behind me.  Do you know not ONE parelli person has said that to me? EVER

That to ME speaks volumes!


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## Tannis (17 July 2010)

This is a genuine question and it doesn't have a hidden agenda.

Why is there need to demonstrate that problems can be solved at speed?

I don't understand or know enough of the full range of Parelli methods but what puts me off from going further is the image that has been put forward that all problems/any problem can be solved by a miracle worker in front of an audience and within a matter of hours.

Do Parelli followers accept that sometimes things may take a little longer and for the sake of the horse in question that maybe sometimes they should be handled where there isn't the stress of an audience.  Or (and this really is genuine), it is part of the training that as you progress through the star rating level, the treatments get quicker.

My stallion was abused and he became aggressive and dangerous.  I needed help and I looked for it.  Potential helpers fell into 3 camps:

1.  yes I can help, it will take me x number of days
2.  yes I can help, send him to me and I'll let you have him back in x  number of weeks
3.  I don't know if I can help or how long it will take but I'm prepared to try

I went with the person from the third group because to me, that was honest.  She wasn't Parelli and she spent the first session with my stallion and then every subsequent session with the two of us.  Sessions lasted as long as they needed to - a couple were no more than half an hour, several were over three hours.  But at no point was any expectation set about achieving a result in a set timeframe.

That's the bit about Parelli that worries me.  Sometimes there are steps forwards and sometimes massive leaps backwards - I think even Mr Parelli accepts this in his apology about FOTH.  So, why is it still "sold" on speed of delivery.


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## tongue~n~cheek (17 July 2010)

touchstone said:



			Ditto this; T n C it takes a brave sould to stand up when everyone is being 'anti', but you've managed to state your case politely and honestly without being condescending to different viewpoints.   Some of the pro parelli replies have only served to make me turn further away from parelli, so thankyou for your well reasoned discussion.
		
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I am only on page 11, if i have missed anyone or anything, from 1-11 let me know via PM.

I can't even remember if I already replied to this so I will do it anyways.

thank you. and your welcome. I try. I agree that some of the pro parelli replies make me sick too.  the others don't bother me, because they in no way shape or form represent me.  but since i am a parelli student, I get lumped into the degredation of thier replies as well.


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## tongue~n~cheek (17 July 2010)

eahotson said:



			Thank you for your time and patience.I am now beginning to see a little more clearly and I agree, none of us would like to have the cameras on us all the time.We all make mistakes, loose our temper when we shouldn't etc.I have signed your petition.Thank you for the work you are doing over there too.We have our monsters too.James Grey for one.And not everything done in our training yards is exactly spot on either.
I shall continue to protest against the demo.I have to say I would have a lot of respect for Pat (and maybe maybe even Robert who is just as culpable to me).If they would hold their hands up and apologize.
		
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thank you. and no, I can't imagine thier lives are easy.  when under a microscope, you see a single human cell, and that narrowness prevents you from seeing the human.

though  I doubt this will fix much, it will make alot of people relieved, and alot of people angry.  I for one am satisfied. I can already see the nasty remarks to some of what is said by him, but I accept the appology as it is given. As with anything else in life, we each have to figure out what it means to us, as an individual, and let it mean what means to another, without making them feel wrong for that.  But wishfull thinking is foolish.

http://www.youtube.com/user/ParelliTube?blend=2&ob=1


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## tongue~n~cheek (17 July 2010)

Voltarama said:



			What i like about this is that it wasn't even slightly aggressive. The horse was give the chance to work out that ramps and lorries don't need to be scary. It's like something out of one of Mark Rashids' books (apologies if you don't like him).
		
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Yes, what a lovely story. i seem to have missed it, in it's original placement on the thread.

Sadly, I have yet to get any of marks books, I am told they are wonderful.  unfortunately, all my money goes to hay.  I give up alot of personal "glamour" to keep my horses happy.

for the record, oddly, I don't dislike any natural pratitioner that is good with a horse.  I may not agree with everything they do, but not one of them has failed to teach me something.  some do put me to sleep, that is why I like pat and linda personally, they usually have me rivited.  Lyons (snooze fest) honestly he has given me some of my best adult naps EVER.

here is the odity, as what little you all have to draw a conclusion about me, I am very passionate about classical dressage, and VERY narrow minded about it.  Anything intentionaly behind the vertical, and I freak! I stopped competing just as "deep and Low" was coming in, and we tried to squash it, little did we know, Rolkur was bringing up the rear. (no offense to any one who does it, I already admited my narrow mindedness) I have been out of the compitition loop for so long I was shocked to find out how mainstream Rolkur was, and decided I shall stay put in NH.  I do not have half million dollar warmbloods, I could never compete with them.  So no point in showing again.  Who has the money anyways


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## tongue~n~cheek (17 July 2010)

storm horse said:



			i've found myself here as a result of the catwalk incident being posted on another site.  the H&H forum was linked to the post.

i congratulate t_n_c on her courage to initiate a post such as this,  particularly at such an emotional time for those within & outside the world of parelli.

i have been studying the program for quite a few years & have seen it go thru many changes, some that suited me , some that didn't .  

i think that this type of discussion is way overdue.  often, as soon as you mention parelli, you are put in a position of having to not only justify why you chose to follow the program, but also explain the why's & where-fore's of Pat & linda's actions and/or decisions.  

it's nice to see constructive discussion from people interested in trying to understand the philosophy & principles behind the program.  at the end of the day, i''m sure we all only want to enjoy our horses & hopefully make a few friends along the way 

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thank you.  yes many changes. Long over due.  exhausted, beaten and tired of defending parelli.  

this reminds me of something I wanted to say about the remark I am sure most traditionalist hear. 'you don't understand"

how can they? when asking people who barely understand them selves (newbies) are superior in attitude (doing it just long enought to be good at it) or are too beat up from defending (long time members)

I also think it is arrogant and chevanistic to make the remark at all, because it is often taken as they "choose" not to understand or are to "ignorant" to understand.  can you blame anyone for steering clear of a person with an orange stick.

sad really as there are so many who honestly do not want to have any confrontation at all.  they just want to coexist with you, with out being ridiculed for doing parelli.  most of those people, were not here in the begining to cause this war. and have never made a rude remark at all, and are unjustly paying the price of those with loose lips.

so please, ask someone questions if you do want to understand.  understanding, doesn't mean agreement.  it just means making an informed descision for yourself.

this goes for the superior nh'ers too.  maybe if you understood that traditionalist, for the most part, are little diffrent from our selves.  and you could likely learn alot from them as well.  all you have to do is ask.


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## tongue~n~cheek (17 July 2010)

JVB said:



			Petition signed - that was truly awful to watch
		
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thank you


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## tongue~n~cheek (17 July 2010)

pippinpie said:



			I don't know who the O'connors are and frankly I don't want to 
If this instructor is trying to teach a horse he really needs to learn the basics himself ! First of all there are phases 1,2,3,4, to any command, this guy simple missed out phases 1&2
Phase 1 (for the back up and return 'Yo yo') = the raised hand with the end of the rope towards you, you wag your finger (I know that sounds daft but horses know what happen before what happens happens) so this is a 'hey buddy pay attention kind of thing' if that alerts your horse and he is attentive and looking at you, you continue that phase 1 along with a raised body energy, the moment he responds you take the neutral position and thats the reward for trying, if on the other hand you get no response from phase 1 you step up to phase 2 the movement of your wrist which will start to send 'life' through rope and a stronger signal, then phase 3 is the movement of your elbow with much more life in the rope, and phase 4 is a simple flick and roll of the rope which will almost certainly connect the clip with the jaw/ lower cheek.
This bad example is not teaching the horse, it is clumsy and totally not what I have learnt from PNH.
He should have used much longer phases phase 1 minimum 5-8 seconds, same with all phases, he should have rewarded as soon as the horse made the slightest try. Also to teach back up to a horse unfamiliar with backing up is to add possibly a bit of 'driving game' where by you introduce the CS and sting and push on the horses 'personal space' by slow phase 1 flicks towards his chest, (I personally have found just the rope works fine for me) when a horse starts to learn this 'game' you use a long phase 1 and then a quicker transition up the phases. Rarely should you need phase 4 if you give your horse a chance to understand what you are asking, this was one of the easiest games to teach my cocky/pushy young horse the better he got at 'yo yo' game the more respect he gave me too.
As for the equipment, that is universal within the Natural Horsemanship world and not solely the tools of PNH, you can buy the equipment from anywhere and from any other HN clinician like Clinton Anderson (who by the way I think is a bully to his horses, this technique look similar to PNH but are much harder/ faster and does not give the horse any time to think) Oh and by the way I bought most of my stuff off eBay 

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well said, well explained


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## vandypip (17 July 2010)

Have watched the above and I'm in no doubt worse goes on!! and signed the petition.


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## tongue~n~cheek (17 July 2010)

ORANGEHORSE said:



			Thank you TIC for your thoughful replies.

There is a big cultural difference between the USA and the UK, because we share a common language people in the UK think that things are the same (I have relatives in the USA).  When Monty Roberts came to the UK an awful lot of people didn't understand where he was coming from AT ALL, because the vast majority of people were kind and gentle when breaking in horses, and took it carefully step by step -so who was this cowboy to tell us what to do.  The thing to remember that in the USA an awful lot of accepted practice was more in the "ride him cowboy" vein.  There are rodeos of bucking cattle and horses on the TV for one thing, so obviously a horse has to be "broken" to make it ridable.  The same goes for Mark Rashid, and Mr. PP, who showed that horses don't have to be treated harshly and got an awful lot of people to have happy successful relationships with their horses.

I can remember one lady from the USA who was over in the UK doing a clinic, when someone asked if they were hurting their horse when doing an exercise, replied by saying "Lady you cannot hurt your horse by doing that, you don't want to hurt your horse.  If you did want to hurt your horse, then take a chain and beat it until it falls to the ground, which is what I have seen in the USA."  So THAT is the culture where PP/Monty Roberts, etc. is coming from and they have succeeded in the most part by showing that there is a different, kind way to treat horses.
		
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For some one who doesn't live here, you understand it well.  Yes we have rodeo on tv, alot of it. and rarely see english on tv. I remember being GLUED to the screen as a kid, during the alternate oplympics when we boycotted. that was the day I learned about english, and was hooked for life.  I would get to see the grand prix show jumping several times a year on tv. and dreamed of someday being rookie of the year.  my hero then, is probably in a wheel chair now I would LOVE to live in a land such as yours where every weekend the popular thing to do is watch horses, jumping, dressage, eventing.  even for people who don't have/ride horses. and people riding thru town all over the place. I can picture it now, laying in bed and hearing the clip clop of hooves on the cobble stone (sorry for assuming y'all have cobble stone)

here it is a far cry different, and certainly different when pat and others like him got a foothold on making it a better place for horses here. Not long ago, I saw a 2yo (maybe 20mos) in a round pen for hours in the heat with his head tied to the horn with his nose on his ribs, to make him softer in the mouth.  it is crud like that, that pat is trying to change.  dont get me wrong, we have many wonderful riders, and trainers here. but the vast majority of them are spread out.  i live close to hilda gurney, and she is one of THE rudest people.  she freely admits she HATES judging lower levels because the people riding in them are boring and terrible and it is a waste of time. why on earth can't she see the beauty in the begining of a dream?

so we are not all yee haw's here, but we do have a whole lot of them.  while you watch olympic hopefuls on a friday night, we have no real equestrian programing except for rfd-tv. only avail by satelite


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## tongue~n~cheek (17 July 2010)

vandypip said:



			Have watched the above and I'm in no doubt worse goes on!! and signed the petition.
		
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thank you!


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## Tannis (17 July 2010)

I've signed it too and I hope you don't mind but I posted the links on another forum so hopefully more people will sign.


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## tongue~n~cheek (17 July 2010)

anima said:



			I have seen very few direct questions answered,but lots met with "If you buy XXX DVD,you will find the answer there"
		
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YES!  Now, there are truly few people who have been going to the parelli events as long as I, and even fewer around since the begining. so I have an answer to this.  it is only my "opinion' as of course, they did not call me up and inform me of thier descisions on the why, but

the very first tour stop I went to, there was a Q&A session with both pat and linda.  they sat opposite each other, and each had a line.  there were HUNDREDS of people in each line. all with questions. I was in line so long I forgot my question.  no worries, I was in line long enough to come up with and forget a new one, a few times.  finally I was almost thier. one more in front of me. and this woman would not stop asking questions. and no matte what pat said to her, she just kept going as if they had all day and she was the only person there. I could see the look on his face. "please someone rescue me" he was polite and never was rude to her, he was way more patient than I would have been. I can't remember now what lame question I asked or the answer, when i finally got my turn. but the next year is when they started doing the, "you can find the answer in.....dvd...." and I cannot blame them. I didn't see them last year, or the year before, and I am looking forward to seeing them in a few weeks.  I always learn something.


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## tongue~n~cheek (17 July 2010)

Tannis said:



			I've signed it too and I hope you don't mind but I posted the links on another forum so hopefully more people will sign.
		
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bless your heart. I don't mind at all, thank you.  I am sad by the fact that the petition to eradicate the parelli's has more than 5x as many signatures. really boggles my mind that, the parelli's are a bigger threat to animals than the people who actualy kill them.  please some one explain the world to ME!

And, I cannot thank you Brit's enough for your sig's. you have accounted I am sure for a good 50 sigs, as there were only 97 when I posted link to here a few days ago. the originators (seriously not mine) goal is 5000. sad that the parelli one got 657 in 3dys.

the one thing that gets me too about americans not signing it, at the very least they should be pissed that this is funded by our TAX DOLLARS


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## tongue~n~cheek (17 July 2010)

VictoriaEDT said:



			To be honest OP I am not really interested in an explanation of "catwalkgate"  - it is blindingly obvious PP and LP behaviour here was not acceptable. I have seen in the past LP throwing a rope into the face of a horse with one eye - she was standing on the "blind" side of the horse all the time and threw the rope into the blind side. That speaks for itself and is why I am not interested in hearing their side of the story.
		
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that is fine, i am not here to explain or defend it, that is not what THIS thread is about.  I honestly invite everyone to read the whole thing.


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## Berpisc (17 July 2010)

Thankyou for posting this thread, I havent got a question that hasnt been asked by anyone else, but have read and appreciated your patient answers.
I have also signed your petition.....didnt realise it was state subsidised, blimey


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## Tinypony (17 July 2010)

I've got a question T-I-C.  The post above about the Yo Yo says 
"He should have used much longer phases phase 1 minimum 5-8 seconds, same with all phases, etc..."
Now, I agree that is the Parelli 4 phases as it's taught, but when I saw Pat himself working with horses, it isn't how he applies it.  When he uses 4 phases it's much quicker.  For example, his arm starts to go back straight after his finger waggling hasn't worked, he taps the ground and then his arm is getting ready to make contact.  Haven't you observed that when you have been with him?
Just to make it clear, although it looks pretty mean when Pat does this (and I don't agree with the use of 4 phases anyway), I think in a way he's fairer on the horse.  Students count the seconds between escalating each phase, and as they do so they desensitise the horse to the phase they are using and that encourages the horse to brace and endure a higher phase.  Then, they often have to repeat many times before their own personal "phase 1" starts to work.  Pat kind of goes "I'm asking, it's coming, it's got you!", really quickly.  And because of that the horses get real responsive to phase 1 real quick.  So it's sort of no pain no gain (and again I'm not pro that approach), but it is fairer in a way because the horse suffers less grief, swinging clips and nagging in the long run.
I've first saw Parelli at a Savvy Day in 1998 by the way, and it was a great day because loads of students were involved and showed what they could do.  The big hype these days is very un-British and alien.  However, it was seeing Pat himself work with horses away from Savvy Conferences that started my move away from Parelli, as I had seen a few other trainers who got the same (and often better) results with a lot less stress to the horse.  In other words, I didn't follow the PNH wisdom that you don't have enough savvy to evaluate another trainer until you've passed your (old!) Level 3.


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## actions-speak-louder (17 July 2010)

dare I ever change my mind and decide again that I want to pursue becoming a Parelli professional, that they would tell me to get lost. That "I" don't have the right attitude.
		
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Oh dear TIC .... this is the problem with the organisation as it has evolved into a monster.  You sound like you have a wealth of experience with horses, and should have your 5*s or more even! The system should welcome you back for that alone and cater for your indiscretions and personal flaws. If you have weaknesses then own them, you are only human after all. The organisation was set up with the horse in mind, for like minded people, not to brainwash everyone, not for them to work on their own personal issues, not as a counselling service, not to tell good horsemen and women who they can and can't learn with or watch, but to help those who have a connection with horses. There are others just like you out there who have also been shunned by the Parelli system and wrongly so, especially here in the UK with all that EE stuff that went on. They have stood their ground and are carrying on doing excellent work with horses and that's what people care about.   I don't go to my vets because they have people skills or don't make personal life mistakes, or don't have any issues.... I have chosen my equine vet because they are excellent with horses and for that I have respect and pay my fees.  

The only attitude you need is the right attitude to work with horses, and that makes you special.  You however don't need to be a perfect person to have this ability.  





			I also am afraid of what Pat might think of me
		
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If you are good with horses, then he should acknowledge this .... what else is there to pass, a psychometric test ? 

I feel that what you have said confirms that the organisation has changed since it started, (see Drover's questions -yet to be answered) and maybe this is why it is seen as  cultish and revenue making behaviour to us Brits.  As previously posted by Pippinpie maybe the more worldly and mature can see through this and extract what they need at the time.  Unfortunately the system attracts the young, the innocent, naive and the gullible. Is the brainwashing there to ensure the membership fees keep on coming in I wonder.  Because that must be the largest revenue income of the Parelli Organisation. If the Savvy Club membership were to decline it would hurt them more financially than any petition and more than any legal battle.





			......this is really important to me, as I have known for 10yrs that degrading another human being is no way to win them over. talking down to or from a superior view, wouldn't help people to uderstand what you do and why you love it. Snarky remarks only put people on the defensive......
		
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and alas degrading a horse is no way to win that over either.  Harsh treatment puts them on the attack too. You win them over with trust and respect, along with kindness, understanding and patience, and you know that. However your personal issues and ego should not cloud your judgement and be left out of the equation when dealing with animals, that's what they teach us, if we care to listen. 




			it is hard to be your genuine self, when you can&#8217;t be &#8216;yourself&#8221;
		
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Well that is down right sad.  We are all looking for the honest horse.  We all have strengths and weaknesses, we should hold our hands up to both.  Holding your hand up to a weakness makes you a stronger person, and maybe that's what Pat should have done on the day with Catwalk, taken real charge and said this horse has me beat today. 

Natural Horsemanship is nothing new, it's been around as long as horses and men have.  It takes good old fashion common sense at the end of the day and learning from experiences. We have all learnt from the Pat and Cat Show, we have learnt what not to do, and how not to treat a horse. Especially in public and if it's unacceptable in public it is most certainly unacceptable behind closed doors too.  Pat and the Parelli organisation have learnt even more.  Hopefully!

So let us do what is best for own horses, in our own ways, whatever our origins and be mindful of our horses and how we treat them.  Ask yourself next time you get cross with your horse - "would I do that in public and face the condemnation of others" or even "would I want to be treated like that" If the answer is "no" then you need to stop doing it and walk away.  Is this the lesson Mr Parelli taught us? If so it's a very valuable one.


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## tongue~n~cheek (17 July 2010)

I fell asleep at the computer again, but woke up to something that I thought I would share. On this thread and I am sure it will be brought up on the other thread, so please take discussion about it over there.   but since I figure someone will ask me MY opinion about it, i will give it once now.

I have just personally seen the vet report for cat walk, luckily I worked for doctors for 6ys and am able to read chicken scratch.  BUT it clearly states that there were NO clinical signs of inflamation or pain, and NO evidence that the stallion was suffering or his welfare comprimised in any way by evidence of physical exam. signed by head vet for FOTH

it was posted on the savvy forum.  I don't know where else it is posted for viewing and am going to bed as it is now 3am.

I am relieved that the exam shows no evidence physical abuse.
I still feel the way I do about what happened though. which is bottom line, I wish it DIDN'T happen.  I wish Pat would have stood by his principles, and not given Robert the quick fix he was seeking, without caring or regard to learning how to handle a horse properly himself.  All he did was further damage his reputation, program, and company.

He has issued a public statement on parellitube.com, though I doubt it will do any good though I always have hope.  it probably wont change anyones mind up, as we all have come to our own conclusions in the 7 days we waited for a statement.  I gather he was waiting to make a formal statement while waiting for the vet note to PROVE the horse was physically OK.  the video of catwalk clearly shows that he is bridling happily now.  but at what expense.  I for one appreciate the statement.  None of this in any way detracts from what I have learned or what they teach, and the wonderful things I see achieved everyday, by everyday people, thru the program that Pat and Linda have designed.

again.  please keep coments over on the other thread.

see you on the flip side,


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## fburton (17 July 2010)

Thank you for taking the time to respond at such length. I found your reply helpful and thought-provoking. And I have to say, TiC, I really admire your patience and tenacity in this thread.



tongue~n~cheek said:



			I do know that dominant is not a primary word in our vocabulary. but generally speaking if a horse is unconfident/fearful safety and comfort is thier primary concern, not dominance games.  they are in a fight/flight mode.  on the other side, generally speaking a confident horse is not, and thus fun, games, relaxation and FOOD are what is on his mind.  dominance can come in many forms.  if you are someone who routinly braids manes, surely you have come across this once or twice.  your horse moves ever so slightly and you adjust your feet acordingly to keep from dropping said braid and starting that one ever.  that is a dominance game.
		
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Interesting example. Personally, I would label this a simple evasion, assuming the horse moved because he uncomfortable and not just because he felt like moving at that moment. But whichever the reason, for me it is a matter of learning not dominance. It is up to the person to teach the horse to stand still in that situation and to put up with a small amount of loss of freedom of movement (and possibly discomfort too if he is hypersensitive). For me it is not a "personal" issue related to our relationship or how he views me as part of some supposed hierarchy or whatever.




			it is a subtle one, but they take thier 'wins" where they can get them.
		
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To be frank, I find the notion of "winning" or "losing" against a horse rather unhelpful. It can get in the way of solving problems in the most direct and effective way. I have seen where an obsession with "winning" -- especially at all costs -- can lead, and it ain't pretty. It encourages escalation of conflict, because the person feels that losing face will mean the horse views the person as a subordinate and "loses respect" for him/her. What can, and often does, happen when conflict is escalated and the horse doesn't immediately comply is that, rather than fixing the problem behaviour, other unwanted behaviours are created.




			a stuborn horse that plants his feet to say no to something, is a dominance game. I wish I could show you a clip of one of my videos with out losing my annonymity, but I had a horse once, not long ago, who would not let you touch one side of thier face.  initially this behavior started out of fear for sure.  i know it was not out of abuse, it was out of wildness.  well the people who I got him from knew NOTHING about horses really, and over a LONG period of time this horse became very confident about the fact that he knew just how long thier arms were and just how far (not far btw) they were willing to push the issue, so pattie (we'll call this horse) was confident in the fact that she could keep you from doing it, thus not afraid at all in the approach, and her skill level was cunning.  I got a hold of her and knew that this of course was not healty behavior and wanted to get it rectified as soon as possible.  it took about 6 hrs from start to finish with patience and just my hands and rope around neck but not tied just draped, no pulling, wiggle nothing. pattie never tried to leave and never displayed any fearful behavior even when I finally got to touch the part I wanted, and all this to get the halter on, a first for pattie.
		
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That's great, and I reckon your success with the horse was down to the calm, patient and consistent way your handled her, addressing the problem i.e. bridling directly, rather than trying to impress on her that you were alpha by e.g. chasing her in a round-pen or pushing her around. (If you _did_ do the latter, I would say your success was in spite of it not because of it.) The fact that you ascribed her stubbornness to dominance didn't stop you having a good outcome. However, I would suggest that for some people it might. There are examples to be found all over where people were misled by their assumption of dominance into wholly inappropriate responses.




			I have a threshold my self for dominant horses, etreme ones like stallions and even some gelding, do not sit well with me, and I try not to work with them.
		
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Actually, I relish working with stallions - both the gentle, sensitive ones and the more "extreme" (rowdy or aggressive) ones. That's partly because I love the "edge" that it gives them in terms of focus of attention, but also because I find the _process_ of de-escalating aggression and forging a relationship of mutual trust and liking highly rewarding. Always my aim is to eliminate dominance from the equation - to make the horse understand that I am _not_ a threat or competitor or rival. I don't achieve that by playing dominance games! If you start pushing a stallion around willy-nilly you shouldn't be surprised when he objects, sometimes dangerously. Respect is gained with consistent, fair handling, being as firm as necessary, of course, but not with arbitrary punishment or bullying tactics. This applies to all horses - it's just that stallions are less likely to resign themselves to being bullied and more likely to react strongly. Unfortunately, the belief that one has to be alpha over the horse leads some people to up the ante and with stallions that can have catastrophic consequences.




			so gee, did i anser the question.  is there a strong tendancy to call a horse that doesn't run away dominant.  ok.  from what you see yes.  of the people who are compelled to defend pat, if that is what they are saying then yes, this group of people do. i have heard few of them think about the possibility of the 'fight" side of fear, especially in a stallion.  in nature, if you show the other stallion your afraid, then you are either left for dead, or dn't get to procreate because the other one stole all your mares.

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No I thought you answered the question superbly. Clearly, though, we have different ideas about dominance. I don't show stallions I am afraid, but that is because I genuinely don't feel much fear around horses on the ground, not because I worry about them thinking they are dominant. For me it really is a non-issue.

I realize that dominance is pretty much at the heart of most forms of NH, but are you aware that there are alternative viewpoints on this matter?


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## tongue~n~cheek (17 July 2010)

actions-speak-louder said:



			Oh dear TIC .... this is the problem with the organisation as it has evolved into a monster.  You sound like you have a wealth of experience with horses, and should have your 5*s or more even! The system should welcome you back for that alone and cater for your indiscretions and personal flaws. If you have weaknesses then own them, you are only human after all. The organisation was set up with the horse in mind, for like minded people, not to brainwash everyone, not for them to work on their own personal issues, not as a counselling service, not to tell good horsemen and women who they can and can't learn with or watch, but to help those who have a connection with horses. There are others just like you out there who have also been shunned by the Parelli system and wrongly so, especially here in the UK with all that EE stuff that went on. They have stood their ground and are carrying on doing excellent work with horses and that's what people care about.   I don't go to my vets because they have people skills or don't make personal life mistakes, or don't have any issues.... I have chosen my equine vet because they are excellent with horses and for that I have respect and pay my fees.  

The only attitude you need is the right attitude to work with horses, and that makes you special.  You however don't need to be a perfect person to have this ability.  




If you are good with horses, then he should acknowledge this .... what else is there to pass, a psychometric test ? 

I feel that what you have said confirms that the organisation has changed since it started, (see Drover's questions -yet to be answered) and maybe this is why it is seen as  cultish and revenue making behaviour to us Brits.  As previously posted by Pippinpie maybe the more worldly and mature can see through this and extract what they need at the time.  Unfortunately the system attracts the young, the innocent, naive and the gullible. Is the brainwashing there to ensure the membership fees keep on coming in I wonder.  Because that must be the largest revenue income of the Parelli Organisation. If the Savvy Club membership were to decline it would hurt them more financially than any petition and more than any legal battle.




and alas degrading a horse is no way to win that over either.  Harsh treatment puts them on the attack too. You win them over with trust and respect, along with kindness, understanding and patience, and you know that. However your personal issues and ego should not cloud your judgement and be left out of the equation when dealing with animals, that's what they teach us, if we care to listen. 



Well that is down right sad.  We are all looking for the honest horse.  We all have strengths and weaknesses, we should hold our hands up to both.  Holding your hand up to a weakness makes you a stronger person, and maybe that's what Pat should have done on the day with Catwalk, taken real charge and said this horse has me beat today. 

Natural Horsemanship is nothing new, it's been around as long as horses and men have.  It takes good old fashion common sense at the end of the day and learning from experiences. We have all learnt from the Pat and Cat Show, we have learnt what not to do, and how not to treat a horse. Especially in public and if it's unacceptable in public it is most certainly unacceptable behind closed doors too.  Pat and the Parelli organisation have learnt even more.  Hopefully!

So let us do what is best for own horses, in our own ways, whatever our origins and be mindful of our horses and how we treat them.  Ask yourself next time you get cross with your horse - "would I do that in public and face the condemnation of others" or even "would I want to be treated like that" If the answer is "no" then you need to stop doing it and walk away.  Is this the lesson Mr Parelli taught us? If so it's a very valuable one.
		
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It is now after 3am, and saw this just as I was turning computer off.  And wanted to reply quickly as I don't want any misunderstandings.  I am not sure if we are on the same page about ME or if you said "you" in the metaphorical "you" meaning "everyone", since I choose to stay nameless.  I have done nothing to a horse to be ashamed of.  I recieved a cyber beating by my peers and for trying to do something NICE for the parelli's.  Nothing more.  I was never so embarresed in all my life. Even if I get outed publicly for this thread, I will not be embarrased by it.  The other I was.

the "authentic self" comment was because of me not stating WHO I am, and because, giving too much info will "out" me, I cannot completely be me.  though I am free to be me, just not under my own identity.  don't know if that makes sense, I am so tired.

I don't know if I read your post wrong because i am tired. so give me alittle leway.

other than that, thank you for all the wonderful things you said, and you are spot on in my thinking. we all have weaknesses, and in my "true" self, I freely share them with the world. this would be my only "indiscretion"

I have chosen not to pursue a career with them at this time, for a few reasons. not making any assumptions that they want me anyway, just saying not going to pursue it at this time.  I have been defending them for years, and as a student that is one thing.  but if I had THOUSANDS of dollars on the line for a career, I don't know if I am prepared to deal with that on such a profesional level.  if things change in the future, then I will re-evaluate.
for now, I like the fact that when I teach/train, I can draw on all my experiences and studies to help the student/horse with what ever will make the most sense to them.  and becomeing a PP means I would have to stop teaching dressage.  that would be like ripping my heart out.  giving up one of your twins.

one would think that they see that they are nothing without u$.  I know we are nothing without them as well.  but we freely admit it.

we are all only human including pat and linda.  and all I can say about thier office staff is that they are all first class, free thinking, friendly, just wonderful.

if I have read any of your post wrong, please correct me, I have been typing on this thread till wee hours in the moning all week and it is now closer to 4am than 3am and i have lessons in the morning.  i think i may have been defensive here, if so, ignore.  eyes too blury to proof read.


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## fburton (17 July 2010)

tongue~n~cheek said:



			I recieved a cyber beating by my peers and for trying to do something NICE for the parelli's.  Nothing more.
		
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For shame! You don't deserve that at all. They should be thanking you for being such a gracious ambassador, because your posts here are doing far more to let people see the good aspects of PNH than the current, official spin.


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## VioletStripe (17 July 2010)

cinammontoast said:



			How is Parelli so bloody successful? He does nothing but circus tricks (what's the point of them?) or common sense stuff yet appears to be enormously rich.

How can he do what he did at the demonstration at Stoneleigh and still be respected?
		
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Sorry I'm very late and ignorant, what happened at Stoneleigh?! xx


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## fburton (17 July 2010)

VioletStripe said:



			Sorry I'm very late and ignorant, what happened at Stoneleigh?! xx
		
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This gives quite a good summary with links if you want more detail (there's a VERY long thread on this forum about it)...

http://www.examiner.com/x-7431-Anim...m7d14-2010-Festival-of-the-Horse-Parelli-demo


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## VioletStripe (17 July 2010)

fburton said:



			This gives quite a good summary with links if you want more detail (there's a VERY long thread on this forum about it)...

http://www.examiner.com/x-7431-Anim...m7d14-2010-Festival-of-the-Horse-Parelli-demo

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Thank you! xx


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## Tinypony (17 July 2010)

Can I suggest that all the talk of games and playing is a bit misleading?  A PNH instructor will take a horse that is causing a student some grief and say "let me have a play with him", then go on to do some things that are certainly not play from the horse's point of view.  To quote a wise old guy who was with Pat in the early days before he became Mr Parelli, "This isn't about playing games, this is darn serious".


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## Jennyharvey (17 July 2010)

T n C, its great that you are answering these questions for people.  I really think its helping in peoples understanding of parelli and NH.  

About the wild horse race and rodeos, ive been against them for a long time.  But not only those.  Steer wrestling, roping and bronc riding is all such barbaric cruelty.  
I dont know if many people here has seen the recent flicka film.  It had a few scenes with a wild horse race, and i think 2 horses actually died during filming.  I always like Tim mgraw's music(who was in the film), but he never spoke out about this so know im not much of a fan.  

Its strange though to think that for a country that has produced so many amazing horsemen and woman, that this sort of thing is still so popular.  Plus, a lot of great horse trainers started out as bronc riders or bull riders before becoming trainers.  Strange.
At least they have one advantage, of being unafraid of backing a bucking youngster.


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## baymareb (17 July 2010)

Jennyharvey said:



			Its strange though to think that for a country that has produced so many amazing horsemen and woman, that this sort of thing is still so popular.
		
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I agree.  It saddens and frustrates me.  Here in California, there is a certain amount of outrage over so-called "Mexican rodeo" in which an event called "tripping" is practiced.  It is indeed horrible, involving a horse let loose in an arena and then a rider (or maybe a  pair of riders) rope the legs of the horse in order to trip it.  

Horses are routinely cut, bruised, lamed and suffer broken bones in these events and the outrage is certainly justified.  Especially because defenders use the excuse that it is a cultural and traditional thing (much like the defenders of bullfighting).

And yet rodeo is defended with the same excuse.  Tradition alone is no reason to keep a practice if time and experience shows the practice to be cruel or detrimental or unfair or any other negative.  I don't care if a bunch of cowboys in the 18th century worked this way - this is the 21st century and I would hope we've evolved!

Sorry for the rant.  Stuff like this p***s me off.


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## fburton (17 July 2010)

Jennyharvey said:



			About the wild horse race and rodeos, ive been against them for a long time.
		
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Agree the "wild horse race" is an abomination. I've signed the petition  - hope it has a positive effect.


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## pippinpie (17 July 2010)

Oh Baymareb yours is not the only country that has its share of cruelty, here in the UK you only have to go down to an unaffiliated SJ competition to make your blood boil, Pushy parents living their missed chances by sticking their poor little kids on unsuitable ponies, geared up to the hill in bits, curb chains, nose bands, martingales and boots, all you hear is 'whack it' 'turn then whack it again' 'use you spurs'  'give him one in the mouth if it doesn't turn' 'this time if it stops thrash it', yes I've seen it all many times as a course builder!
Luckily here in UK most abuse and I say that very loosely is due to neglect and not physical abuse but that goes on as well. 
We are all ashamed of our fellow humans sometimes.

Sorry drifting off topic


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## penhwnllys_stardust (17 July 2010)

i love what Monty Roberts does with his horses is that the same as parelli?


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## Jennyharvey (17 July 2010)

pippinpie said:



			Oh Baymareb yours is not the only country that has its share of cruelty, here in the UK you only have to go down to an unaffiliated SJ competition to make your blood boil, Pushy parents living their missed chances by sticking their poor little kids on unsuitable ponies, geared up to the hill in bits, curb chains, nose bands, martingales and boots, all you hear is 'whack it' 'turn then whack it again' 'use you spurs'  'give him one in the mouth if it doesn't turn' 'this time if it stops thrash it', yes I've seen it all many times as a course builder!
Luckily here in UK most abuse and I say that very loosely is due to neglect and not physical abuse but that goes on as well. 
We are all ashamed of our fellow humans sometimes.

Sorry drifting off topic
		
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Very true.  But its not just the children. Adults can just be as bad, and they are bigger and stronger so could cause hurt much more easily.


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## Tinypony (17 July 2010)

No, what Monty Roberts does is not the same as Parelli.  Although, some of what Monty Roberts does can be just as contentious.


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## Bay_Beasty (17 July 2010)

tongue~n~cheek said:



			I recieved a cyber beating by my peers and for trying to do something NICE for the parelli's.  Nothing more.  I was never so embarresed in all my life. Even if I get outed publicly for this thread, I will not be embarrased by it.  The other I was.
		
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T n C I have said it before and I will say it again. You should stand up and be SO SO SO SO proud of what you have achieved on this forum. Your grace, humility, clarity and honesty have been poured out in your posts and you have achieved amazing things. Pat should be banging at your door to have lessons on how to create open discussion without making people feel small and put upon. Your Parelli peers should hang their heads in shame for bullying such a caring, honest person. As you know, I have changed and its down to you and your willingness to accept people and let them see who you really are. There is ALWAYS a space for you on this forum, and I know I am not the only one who thinks this. You have 'bridged the gap', let people learn, understand and discuss the true meaning of parelli and yet let them still keep their ideals too, something that Pat has yet to achieve, and probably never will.


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## tongue~n~cheek (18 July 2010)

VictoriaEDT said:



			To be honest OP I am not really interested in an explanation of "catwalkgate"  - it is blindingly obvious PP and LP behaviour here was not acceptable. I have seen in the past LP throwing a rope into the face of a horse with one eye - she was standing on the "blind" side of the horse all the time and threw the rope into the blind side. That speaks for itself and is why I am not interested in hearing their side of the story.
		
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I can't remember if I commented on this, I got a little lost last night, I think this is where I left off.

this thread is not for me to explain "catwalkgate" (lol love it)

each person has to stand up for what they saw with thier own eyes, be it in person, dvd, hidden camera phone.  I for one have my own opinion on it, but cannot explain it.  some have tried to explain it, as a fact, both the horsemanship side of it (tools and techniques) and the principles side (venue, when to quit, lack of comment and so forth)  

to me that is an injustice to all involved including the horse.  I think the ONLY one who can and should comment is Pat ( IMO in more detail).  the FACT of the matter is, the ONLY person who knows what he did, how and why is Pat himself.  short of an true explaination and FULL video viewing or FULL eye witness, i think judgement should be reserved.  the video clips are far too grainy, distant, and SHORT to give ANY one the full facts for judgement.  Not to mention lack of an OFFICIAL statement by BHS, FOTH officials, and ALL vets involved, leaves you with not enough facts to do anything other than guess and speculate.  leaving one to give opinions like misinformed accusation or defense.  It doesn't appear to me that the students have done anything to help the matter.  

and the ones who honestly need to stand judgment are the ones who created this problem in this horse, and his current owner who let 8 weeks pass before seeking any help, and then a quick fix at that, rather than learn to handle a horse him self with patience and time.


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## tongue~n~cheek (18 July 2010)

anima said:



			They don't seem able to handle their own PR well,so amybe they should 

I am not anti NH. TBH I am not even really anti PNH since I am of a veiw that if it works and causes no harm it's all good.
The second you put on "colours" though it all goes to ****,and teh Parelli's attitude to "outsiders" has done nothing to make them just one of a long line of methods avalable-the us or abuse mentality has made them(and their product) into a figure of hatred.

Monty Roberts has never(at least not since he came to be a "known" figure") felt a backlash like Parelli for instance,simply because he puts his point across in a simple,gentle way and works hard to ensure it makes sense.
The Parelli's respond with "you don't understand"-attempting to make experianced horsemen feel stupid will never endear you 

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agreed.  I hate that he said "no one works harder than I".  how arrogant.  I understand what he "meant" but he understands more about public speaking that expect people to know what he "meant".

saying that other dont understand, while a fact, we DONT understand, to say so is condescending at best.  just because someone doesn't do parelli doesn't mean they are ignorant.  and just because you do, doesn't mean you are all knowing.  while most will in fact not understand the "technique" as you WOULD  have to have a fundemental understanding of the method to do so, I think the part they are missing is the fact that most dont understand how he GOT there in the first place.  which takes little more than common sense and decency to come to the conclusion that he shouldn't have GONE THERE. 

to say there was confusion? I dont think people are "confused" about how they feel.  either pro or con.  and to insinuate that is the "problem" will get exactly what you said.  people think, you think they are stupid, and never endear you!

I think they all too often ignore the "naysayers".  this is not bright IMO, as there is value in critisism and questions.  you dont have to agree with them, but they do give you a - to the + on your compass to guide you on your journey.  with out it, your compass will no longer always point north, it will do no more than spin out of control


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## mulledwhine (18 July 2010)

THanks TNC, you have been honest and upfront, but please explain how'hitting a horse' with a rope around the head that is head shy, cures the horse.

ANd please explain why it took my 20 r old horse 18mts to trust me again after he went on loan, and he had a parelli person show him how to ' behave' and broke the mans arm?

And after just loving him and looking after him , he is now lovely and beautiful, and kind?

Just a question on common sense.......


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## tongue~n~cheek (18 July 2010)

daisydo said:



			THanks TNC, you have been honest and upfront, but please explain how'hitting a horse' with a rope around the head that is head shy, cures the horse.

ANd please explain why it took my 20 r old horse 18mts to trust me again after he went on loan, and he had a parelli person show him how to ' behave' and broke the mans arm?

And after just loving him and looking after him , he is now lovely and beautiful, and kind?

Just a question on common sense.......
		
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because I am only on page 13 on aswering questions, it will be a while before I get to this.  so if you could, restate your question, as I can't find one I can answer.  I am guessing here, that there is an  actual horse you know (yours) or one in a Linda dvd or catwalk, that you are speaking of.  alone, for me, each of those situations will have a different answer.  so if you are speaking of why someone may have done a spicific thing to YOUR horse, as I am suspecting, need more info as to which situation you are speaking of.

and "hitting a horse about the head",  I need more discription of what this means.  describe the "how" of the hitting.  what I picture in my head may not be what you saw.

I am sorry about what happened to your horse.  as to why it took 18months would be dependant on MANY different things.  such as the type of horse he is, what happened to him, and how/what you have done to help him heal. without those details, I cannot really answer in all honesty.  it would just be drivvling propeganda, and I know no one is looking for that.

I have a very long explaination about 'trust".  however, because it is plastered all over "my" domain.  sharing it with you here would "out" me.

give me more info.  if it something I can answer, I will.


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## tongue~n~cheek (18 July 2010)

SpottedCat said:



			The O'Conners are 4* level event riders, so pretty good horsemen.

But that does not answer my question, which was why does Parelli not advocate kit which can't be used in this way (i.e. a better way of fastening line to halter so if people bypass steps it does not end up with a horse being hit round the head like that), not, is this kit universal in the NH world and can I buy it outside the Parelli system.
		
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Page 12 is where I am at.  if I have missed anything before this, let me know.

First of course I cannot speak other than MY speculation, but it is intentional, and common among many NH practitioners.  Pat calls it a "hinge"

I am going to my best to explain this and yet still stay brief, and in no way judging one type as better than another.

the hinge acts as a buffer/diffuser.  if the rope is directly attached to  the halter, not in a link fashion such as this

http://idfropehalters.com/shop/index.cfm.23.html

(note, stallion pic is of stallion that is half brother to my aunts stallion that I rode as a child, what a cool discovery, havnt heard the name fadjur in 30ys)

then the rope becomes a part of the halter.  thus losing some subtlety in technique.  when you wiggle rope lightly, and rope not touching the ground, the halter will move more easily on the face of the horse, with less energy being exerted by the human.

when you have a hinge type attachement like this, take note of how low the snap is from the face.

http://www.downunderhorsemanship.com/products2.cfm/id/33/name/Rope Halter

the snap is not infact tied and thus able to freely move about the loop of the halter, so when you send a tad too much energy (we are talking about "refined" technique here, it slows DOWN at the snap, and doesn't move the halter as quickly, thus making your phase 3 more effective and less likely to feel like the beginning of a phase 4. (there is a post regarding the exact explanation of the 4 phases as it applies to the yo-yo. 

and with the added weight, it hangs, thus making it less likely to hit horse when in a light phase 4.  but there if needed for an effective phase 4 when safety is an issue or a higher level of skill.

I know there is NO way anything I say can convince you that the snap REALLY doesn't hit the horse as often as you think.  so rather than try to do that, I will try to make a small video tomorow (with my loan ranger mask on) to demonstrate to you what it SHOULD look like when done correctly, and that it doesn't hit the head in the way you think it does, when not done correctly in the hands of novices, or when done correctly as a phase 4 one time 'POP". showing all of this that I describe.  no promises as it is my mothers birthday and I wil be doing old lady things till my eyes roll out of my head, but will do it no later than moday for sure and post a link here.

but since I am not sure that will convince you still, all I can say, is go to tack store and expiriment for yourself.

Now, before I get a bunch of replies about what a crock of bull this is, the difference between the two types of attachment are minimal.  like comparing a mercedes and a bmw. they both get you from point a to point b, but handle just a bit differently.

I also am NOT saying that the snap NEVER unintentionaly hits the horse.
lets say that you imagine that horse gets hit with EVERY swing and sway of the rope. You see the rope swing 20 times thus think the horse gets whacked 20 times. I will say, with NO scientific eveidence, just swingin a dead kat here, maybe 10-20%.  so out of 20 swings the horse MAY get whacked 2-4 times.  my feeling is less than that, but since I haven't been a novice in QUITE some time, nor have any of my students, I cannot recal with accurate guess.  I for one, have this corrected with in the first lesson with a student, as I would NEVER tolerate someone looking like david did in that video, and point to me as thier trainer.

the skilled "one pop" I was speaking of can be learned in one lesson (usually minutes) and IS taught in the program.  at least the red/blue levels.  i cannot speak for the new pkts as I honesly have just skimed them over (not a fan of the new levels) though it may also be in other dvd's series.

AND, since you SHOULD be using phases, the snap would NEVER hit the horse at ALL during those phases.  if done corectly, the horse should honestly RARELY get whacked.  if you see evidence otherwise, you are not seeing it done correctly.

AND I know for a FACT not all people with a carrot stick are following Pat, and may be following another practioner, so before you judge it as PNH, you should ask the person 'who's" technique they are using.

whew/swipes brow and heads out for a smoke, 

was it as good for you?


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## tongue~n~cheek (18 July 2010)

SpottedCat said:



			The O'Conners are 4* level event riders, so pretty good horsemen.

But that does not answer my question, which was why does Parelli not advocate kit which can't be used in this way (i.e. a better way of fastening line to halter so if people bypass steps it does not end up with a horse being hit round the head like that), not, is this kit universal in the NH world and can I buy it outside the Parelli system.
		
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Also, FWIW, clinton anderson, who is known for being more "assertive" than other practitioners, and has a thinner, stiffer, halter with more nose knots.

the wiggle wiggle whack whack, is more "harsh" than the parelli's yet he gets little flack.  I think it is because of his people approach.


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## tongue~n~cheek (18 July 2010)

eahotson said:



			While I will continue to complain about Catwalk I hope I don't hate all people who practise Parelli.As TIC says, we must put down the guns and see the people.See the one thing we have in common, a love of horses and a wish to doour best by them however we do it.
		
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## tongue~n~cheek (18 July 2010)

foolforahorse said:



			Please explain to me what Linda is trying to accomplish here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CyF2QqP29DU

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OK, the one you have been waiting for.

this, for me, is like floating in shark infested waters while bleeding, but in the interest of getting to the top of Everest, I will try to explain.  I am full aware that this will NOT change anyones mind.  Please know this is not in defense of Linda, nor is my opinion in ANY way "approved" by PNH.  This is JUST my explanation as I see it, and at the end, my opinion.

I watched it just now as I have not viewed this EDITED version, in months, and the FULL version in years. AND my eyesite is not the best for small videos on the computer screen. I WILL try and find my level1 and watch on th big screen, though it is VERY low on my priority list as I already know my position on this matter.

So one thing i noticed in reference to comments made about this video, not just recently but a few months back as well, is that she is saying "bump" not "thump', I know this sounds like "WTF is the difference".  In many circles a bump is regarding a tug on the halter, and a thump when the snap connects.  now how many circles, and how big the circles, I don't know.  I may be the only circle, with a member of 1 (me) but I don't think so.

in peoples accusations of the entirety being abuse, I know that makes no difference, and I need not be told that, I know full well the abuse stance. this is not the thread for it PLEASE.

but since there is MUCH talk about the equiptment, in general, and the snap in specific, it has relevence. in a bump, the snap is not likely to make any contact.  in a thump it does, and it may be intentional or unintentional.

In order for the snap to hit the horse in the face a few laws of physics must be met. YES there is criteria to be met, for said snap "abuse" to take place.

1. you have to have some sort of slack in the rope, the more slack the more likely a thump, otherwise you will just get a bump or possibly some rope touches to the face.

2. there has to be some sort of up ward movement from the rope, or

3. there has to be some sort of serious sideways and upward swing in the rope.

In watching the video, yes there are times the snap makes contact.  And as I have stated in a previous post, you cannot deny the EFFORT she is putting into this.  It is a situation like this, that usually results in the horse getting the "whack" to the head that you talk about.  NOT, generally speaking, normal days of playing and learning, and certainly not once both the horse and handler understand the technique.  So in reference to novices having sessions like this, it shouldn't be happening often or for very long.  
And only after the proper phases 1-2-3 that I have previously described been applied. And a normal phase 4 shouldn't look like this.  

This video is NOT a typical play session where the focus is on learning.  This horse was severely distracted and not listening to more subtle requests, that are edited out of this video.  I have a horse like this as well, so I understand the nature of what is going on in the video.  Linda is doing what she can to get this horses attention.  It appears to me that she is also experimenting as to "what" technique applied, actually DOES get this horses attention.  Then focusing on using that strategy.  She is releasing when she gets "one eye" (not picking on a one eyed horse, just sounds funny saying "2 eyes" in regards to a horse that actually only has one eye) the "attention" however is lost almost immediately, resulting in the technique being quickly applied again.  This horses adrenaline is very high, and he is very focused on what ever it is that is going on in the distance.  As someone who owns and has been on many "joy rides" that followed that exact kind of behavior, I know how important it is to have your horses full attention, because once running, there is almost NO stopping them.  Often with horses like this, they don't even notice all your comotion, it is as if you don't exist, no matter how "brutal" the application may seem.  And that is what is scariest of all (for me anyways) you stand there saying to yourself "OMG what do I have to do to get this horse to notice me, with out getting my self run over or kicked"  

In my experience, pre parelli, it was these types of horses that had stud chains both over thier noses and used as a gum CHAIN. And I have seen that thousands of times.  At that time, I also had used stud chains when I felt required, but never in the mouth.  My position was, I would rather yank on that chain once, maybe twice, be understood, and have no further incidents.  As opposed to repeated other in'effective techniques. But it was a last resort, not a first one. 

So in watching the video, what I SEE, is a horse that is barely if even aware that Linda is there creating all that comotion.  And if it is, it is ignoring her and her comotion.  Is the horse getting whacked and thumped in the head, yanked on, bumped and spanked?  YES!  Does the horse even notice it?  NO!

Now for my opinon.  While not a particularly effective campain, it is ultimately effective. Of course the end of video also edited out.  And a whole lot in between.  Was this the best way to go about it? Maybe not.  Are there other (notice I did not say better) ways to go about this?  YES!  Is this the only way? NO!  Is this the best way?  Who knows  Would Linda do it differently or better today? (it also is an old video) In MY opinion, likely.  As she is a better horse woman today than then, and we all grow and get better.  Should this have been in thier program? I found it educational, but I learn something from everything, even if it is what not to do.  Is this ONE clip of info, the sum of the whole of the program as it was then (20hrs of video) or today? NO

Do I think it is abuse?  NO!  I would if that horse had it's full attention on her, was doing everything in it's power to please her, and she kept on it anyway.  But that didn't happen. NOT EVEN CLOSE.  is it bullying, 'eh, that is in the eye of the beholder.

IF you feel that is abuse, those are your feelings and I am not here to tell you that you are wrong.  So please, do not tell me that I am wrong.  I put myself out there to try to offer some explanation, as I see it.  I said I would answer honest questions, and I feel this IS and honest question.  I am NOT the one in this video, and will NOT respond to attacks against me on this.  "I" have done nothing wrong.  And I am NOT asking you to agree with me.

I was asked "what is Linda trying to accomplish here?"  So this is MY interpretation only.  Linda and the owner, offered a HONEST, HEARTFELT and COMPLETE explanation regarding this MONTHS ago.

What I find so terribly sad, is that at this moment, in 3 short DAYS, the petition to BAN the parellis, who have saved directly or indirectly hundreds of thousands of horses lives, already has 708 signatures.  And yet the petition below, to ban one of the cruelest "sports" in modern civilization that actually KILLS horses for human entertainment, only has recieved 257 in 3 WEEKS. If you have not yet seen it, I ask you to now.  

I want to thank all of you that have helped me, support the petition here as you have done more to help the petition than anyone else (in signature count)  GO UK!


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## tongue~n~cheek (18 July 2010)

eahotson said:



			You might actually (if you have the time) go to the tag ends of the other Parelli posts.There is beginningto be SOME acceptance by both traditionalists and the  Parelli camp that at least if we can't agree ,we can disagree peacefully.That not all practitioners of Parelli are slavish to Pat and Linda and that we all want the same in the end, to do the best by our horses.
This dominance issue.Don't we all dominate our horses to some degree.You may want your horse to go in a trailer so you can go to a show.Most of us try and do this kindly.Showing the horse that there is nothing to be afraid of and driving consideratly.HOWEVER at the end of the day, you require him to go in the trailer.You are not really giving him a choice.
I have lost count of how many trads say For sure I give him a whack if he misbehaves.Whats that but dominance really.We do itwith dogs, cats children anyone we feel resposible for.We give them some degree of freedom.I always think of my horses field time as HIS time and as far as possible his box as HIS home.When I take him out to ride that is MY time.The price he pays for the lovely lifestyle he has generally.
You need to be able to say NO to children for many reasons, not least there personal safety.To the 3 year old NO you may not cross that busy road on your own.
When out on a hack you need to be able to say to your horse NO you may not turn round and bolt for home simply because you don't like the look of that lorry.Its simply not safe either for you or him.
There is a check and balance to all of this.Over dominance becomes bullying which is what I PERSONALLY (And I accept that other people may not agree) happened to Pat at that demo.
I would also question Roberts role in all of this.MANY REASONS.One is though.Its stated by someone on the other post that his friend practises Parelli and he wanted to give it a shot with Catwalk but that he didn't stay for the demo.Well if I wanted to try Parelli methods I would have made sure I stayed for the demo.It doesn't make sense otherwise and I quite agree with the OP it certainly does seem that Robert has no interest at all in any form of ground work.
		
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I couldn not have said this better myself.  To be honest, while those are EXACTLY my opinons, since I am answerinn questions, I didn't even think of it.
So thank you!


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## Tinypony (18 July 2010)

Thanks for all this discussion TIC.
RE the clip, it's just not needed.  Other trainers and their students manage to get beautiful subtle communication without ever having to even risk metal clunking on their horse's face.  I think the problem is that Parelli is so entrenched in the use of their phases.  I'm taught now to ask softly with the initial cue (like phase 1), but then support it with different "ask" if the horse doesn't understand.  As a result I have found that I can do way, way less to achieve much more with my horse, and without putting them under so much pressure.  I don't increase my initial cue to get a horse to respond.  (No touch the hair, touch the skin, touch the muscle, touch the bone...).
Probably the reason others manage so well with ropes that link directly to their halters is because they never feel the need to swing their rope about in the Parelli way.  
I do know how much the clips hit the face, and of course it isn't with every swing, but even once is unacceptable to me.  Sometimes those halters fit so badly that the clips make contact with the face just because the horse gets some energy going.  Not fair.


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## tongue~n~cheek (18 July 2010)

ORANGEHORSE said:



			TnC I think you have given some excellent, thoughtful answers to the questions, well done.

I haven't got involved with Parelli as I doubt my ability as a trainer, and I thought that there was too much to go wrong if "done at home" without supervision of an experienced trainer.  But I know people who have had terrific success with previously difficult horses, and the horses canter towards their owners in greeting when they see them.

I think we are all in agreement that the Catwalk demo went seriously wrong.
		
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While I am NOT trying to convert you, it is the reason why you chose not to investigate NH that I want to comment on.  If you have a horse, whether you like it or not, you are his trainer.  whether you think you are doing anything or not, you are his trainer.  You are the one who spends the majority of the time alone with him.  So IF, and only IF  you are interested in it.  Dont let this last weekend deter you from investigating it.  If you have friends that are doing it, they will likely have no problem letting you borrowing something that might give you a dabble in it, so YOU can make up your mind for YOUSELF. You don't need to go 'lock stock and barrel".  You don't need to change your lifestyle.  Talk to your friends about it.  let them know you are interested and that you have questions, sincere questions (we are a leary bunch about questions) and you would like them to share thier experiences, good and bad, and that if you have any follow up questions, you will let them know.

despite the fact that it doesn't work for everyone.  MANY people do it all on thier own and have fabulouse results.  And thier are instructors out there that can help you.


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## tongue~n~cheek (18 July 2010)

eahotson said:



			P.S TIC.Think the mellowing is maybe due to this post.
		
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Stop! My head might get so big from all this glory, it will explode!  Hey wait, I just might get some sleep then.  1am now and going on 3.5hrs sleep last night.


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## Tinypony (18 July 2010)

Anyone thinking of looking further into "nh" style training.  Can I suggest that you go and watch some clinics first?  There are some excellent trainers out there who visit the UK, check whose approach sits best with you before you invest too much time (or money!).
See, I now think, to coin Parelli's phrase, that Parelli are the "best of the worst".  Look further and find the best.


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## baymareb (18 July 2010)

That is probably the closest thing to a clear explanation of the LP video I have seen.  It seemed to me that she was trying to gain the horse's attention but it did and still does seem a ridiculous way to do so.  

My horse gets distracted.  She's young, she's curious and she sees shiny things and butterflies all the time.  Instead of flapping a rope at her for an interminable amount of time, I put her to work.  I can't see how the method in the video - no matter how expertly applied - would work better than giving the horse something to do.  I guess I just don't see the point.

Nor do I see the point of the situation with Catwalk.  Whether or not either one of those events was abuse, I'll leave to those who witnessed them in their entirety, but I fail to see the benefit of working with Catwalk the way he was worked with.  Perhaps he is being bridled now - as I understand, he was being bridled before, Whitaker had only had him 8 weeks and I think it's likely that less drastic measures would have solved the issue.  We've had dozens of people tell how they solved similar issues without all the drama.

So for those who keep saying, "you just don't understand" - no, I guess I don't.  But I really don't want to either because I can't imagine going through all that to accomplish things I've accomplished much easier my own way.


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## Alyth (18 July 2010)

Sorry T i C but this is another accolade!! Sincere congrats to you, and most of the other posters to enable this fantastic discussion to take place.  I think this is a first!!!  Everyone listening and contributing with very little anxt!!  I have been studying the original Parelli programme for about 12 years now. What impressed me when I first audited a clinic was how everything I learned as a child (Pony Club to A certificate pass) was given a logical sequence and a reason for doing it.  "It's so old it's new again".  However I have been backing away for about 4 years - since the "Linda levels" came out with THAT video on them!!!  I have seen Pat live 2ce.  The first time I was impressed, even though there were a couple of things I questioned!!  The second time I was more impressed by his students.  I felt he was a bit "over the top" - and that was about 5 or 6 years ago now.  The one thing that really put me off was being told to accept what is said, not to question, just to "do it"!!!  Me - I question everything!!!  

Gotta say - FADJUR WAS GORGEOUS!!!  One of my pin ups!!

Alyth


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## tongue~n~cheek (18 July 2010)

drover said:



			Hi tounge in cheek,

I am interested to hear your thoughts on the lowering of standards in the parelli world in a huge way with levels and the fact that it is so so easy to become an instructor.

10 years ago the quality of the instructors was very high but now anybody with money can get endorsed regardless of knowledge, skills or experience.

I have been in this side of the industry for over 20 years and the parelli thing started great but in particular over the last few years the materials taught and quality of instructors has dropped in a big way.

I learned from some the great horsemen that pat learned from and originally pat was doing a pretty good job of passing on that knowledge(although expensive) but know its incredibly watered down it seems just to make more money from selling heaps more dvds.

I know from my many friends world wide that are still involved with parelli that some of the new instructors have not even completed and passed the new level 2 system and are out there teaching and charging for 'online' instruction.

As my teacher R.H. would have said it should be quality and not quantity you offer (he was refering to the horse but it really refers to most things)
		
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Ahhh, I have been itching to answer this one  First of all, I couldn't agree more!  I am P I S S E D that they got rid of the blue/red packs,  AND quite honestly would like Linda to complete it with a L3, in the same styel and quality of concepts and philosophy.  We can repackage the whole thing as Linda Horsemanship and can include everything for L4 too, that way it is complete for the modern.  the patterns are seperate from the levels as far as material is anyways, so what is the harm.  I know they had to change it for the sake of restructuring the whole program, to make it easier to progress through the OFFICIAL process, but really, the way to get to the top is the same.  I know lots of people didn't like them because it was Linda, and not Pat.  And some people found it all, "too much information".  but now there is not enough.  while I don't want to see them re-do anything AGAIN, I would like for Linda to complete what she started for those of us who learn better her way.  I honestly Like linda, and probably wouldn't have started parelli if it wasn't for her.  So Linda, if your out there, 'um, do you think..........?

I am under the impression that you must be at least L3 grduate, albiet, I think you can "self" asses, and still apply.  Personally, i find a whole lot of fault with THAT.  I know alot of people will fudge at least a little
but everyone has to do a 30min? audition, with certain criteria met in order to apply to be an instructor.  this is seperate, even if you do pass L3 officially.  I have not had but one clinic in all my years parelli, done it all on my own, I have audited one dave ellis clinic and that is it.  so I really cannot speak of the quality of the instructors anyways with any personal knowlege.
Is your friend sure about the not passing the NEW level 2 and they are "endorsed" instructors.  If that is the case tell your friend to ask for credentials and a card or something, get a name/s and PM me, I would like to know more about that.  If that is true, there is something seriously wrong with that.  I am leaning toward something being fishy.  

I can speak on speculation as far as the rest though.  Yes it is easier to become one now, easier than ever.  but only a 1* 2* max.  you still gotta jump thru some hoops to become higher than that though, and rightly should.  Here is my fear, as a previous PP hopefull, as i have taken that off the table for now.  At the current rate of new PP's going thru in the last year, and to come this year, all out there giving FREE lessons as required until they get so many hours of teaching under thier belt, it will devalue anyone as a 1*.  

times are tough right now, especially in the states, and I constantly hear how hard it is for some to even keep thier club membership.  so why pay for lessons, when you can find a new 1* to get them for free. Furthermore, now with the new requirement that you HAVE to be a member in order to attend clinics or even take lessons (you can get 3 trial lessons without joining) after that must be a member to participate in parelli activities, there goes a whole lot of business, and comunity respect out the window.  if they think we are a cult now, imagine when that goes mainstream. OMG they will slaughter us.  I may as well shave my head, pull out my birkenstocks, get a white rope and hand out carrots at the airport.  Wont be much of a discernable differnce in many peoples eyes.  if it gets bad i will paint my sticks green and start my own celery stick business. When you add this and the new ambassador program, aye aye aye!  'eh.  for now I am a student, and those shoes fit me well. I enjoy it.  I got a lot of pent up frustration at the moment on this stuff.

Being a good teacher takes a heck of alot more than being a good student.  Some can and some can't.  The old saying, those who can't, TEACH.  Goes for the opposite too.  I have an eagle eye, but screw thing up for myself royaly from time to time.  But I am a great teacher, coach, counselor etc, and have alot of life experience to draw on.  like I said, I will burn that bridge when I get to it!


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## tongue~n~cheek (18 July 2010)

Tinypony said:



			Anyone thinking of looking further into "nh" style training.  Can I suggest that you go and watch some clinics first?  There are some excellent trainers out there who visit the UK, check whose approach sits best with you before you invest too much time (or money!).
See, I now think, to coin Parelli's phrase, that Parelli are the "best of the worst".  Look further and find the best.
		
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I second that motion.  the auditing part.  I think people should do it regardless of traditional or NH


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## better half (18 July 2010)

There are excellent trainers here in the U.K. 

Watch how it's done here 

http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=305146795396&ref=mf


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## Shysmum (18 July 2010)

please read the statement under "BHS Statement" thread - very interesting response from them, and I think it's what we mostly wanted to hear. sm x


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## tongue~n~cheek (18 July 2010)

roo2012 said:



			t~n~c thank you for your reply, you have answered many questions on this thread that other people have been unwilling or unable to answer before.

I understand a lot of the reasoning you have given and perhaps if I had a problem horse I would be even more aware. Luckily I have a horse with near perfect manners.

Although you have dashed my dream of travelling to see wild pokemon in their natural habitat..
	
	
		
		
	


	








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your welcome, glad I could help.

Yet another Pikachu Hunter lost in the jungles of Japan!

I for one have a Ponyta, my kid gave it to me. He got her from a Pokemon whisperer,  I am told if I follow the program, she will evolve into a magical creature with a mane and tail of FIRE!
http://picture.funnycorner.net/funny-pictures/5684/Ponyta-1.jpg


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## tongue~n~cheek (18 July 2010)

2:30am. page 16 complete.  good thing it is a metaphorical Everest, I would be an ice pop by now!
see you on the flip side.


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## touchstone (18 July 2010)

Thankyou for your posts TIC,  I'm following with interest!

Personally I feel that there is abuse  or at least the potential for abuse, in any 'method', even mis-using body language can be confusing for a horse, and how often do we see the top riders doing the showjumping phase in a 3 day event  in a hackamore because the horse has a sore or damaged mouth?  I was (am) unhappy at the handling poor Catwalk had to endure, and after watching vids of how Klaus Ferdinand Hempfling handles truly aggressive stallions I can see how different the parelli demonstration was from what communication with horses CAN be.  

I think all we can do is to follow our own intuition and common sense and take the 'good' bits that resonate with us and leave the rest, providing we are honestly doing our best for our horses, always questioning and not blindly following.  

We are all constantly learning and the day we stop caring enough to question the why's and wherefore's of something is the day we shouldn't be doing it.  Hopefully we can all learn lessons from this for the sake of our horses.


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## amandap (18 July 2010)

Just had to pop in here and express my admiration for tongue in cheek for answering questions willingly and with an honest and open approach. A skill and attitude to aspire to.


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## tongue~n~cheek (18 July 2010)

catkin said:



			Thank you TnC for taking the time to explain so well and dispassionately and for being thought-provoking.

I have always had difficulty with the semantics and labels being bandied about (being defensive myself here I guess) 
'natural horsemanship'? - my horses don't live naturally, but I have brought them into this life so it's my responsibility to make it as comfortable for them as possible using whatever tools we need for OUR particular circumstances;
 the phrase 'playing' with horses has always made me feel a bit queasy - as I interpret that as the crazy bucking, galloping games they do with each other out in the field - me, I'm not a playmate, I'm just this weird alien being who they usually like to associate with 'cos I feed them, groom them, entertain them perhaps.

On the equipment side, I wonder how many of us can honestly say we have NOT bought something because of the branding........
I certainly have, and I can be extremely fussy about the design of equipment as, like lots of people, I have found that some things work, for me, better than others (for example, I know I am more effective longreining with terrets on a roller rather than D-rings).

Thank you for the explanation of the use of the voice - this is something that has always confused me about the Parelli system as it is an aid I have been taught and encouraged to use since I was a child (decades ago now). 

Can you please clarify that I have understood this correctly - it is discouraged at the beginning to allow concentration on bodylanguage but then used later if required. I'm interested because an old nagsman I had the good fortune to be taught by years ago used to use the voice in two very distinct ways, a soft murmuring when reassuring/gentling a horse and a crisp 'request' like trot-on, stand, back, which was to be clear and not surrounded with 'chit-chat' - the rest of the time you were silent around the horses.
		
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Yes you have understood correctly, with one exception, reintroduction of voice if 'desired" most do not go back, as they have become quite fluent in the body language.
 Just as your old nagsman knew, to be "chatty" will, put your voice aid in a fog of confusion.  ANY aid can be mis-used, including voice.  if you are constantly blathering about and not keeping your voice cues, clear, the horse wont even recognize them as a cue, and just like body language, there is likely a consequence to follow if not listened to, to give the command meaning.

As for the semantics, PLAY, as a word or description for "working" with our horses.  Pat knows, and I agree, that a single word can completely change our mindset.  We use the word "play" to help keep our wits about ourselves, and not abuse the good nature of equine friends.  doesnt mean that if you dont use that word, that you have a negatice mind set.  only that as a program, he wanted to be able to reach those that DO.


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## tongue~n~cheek (18 July 2010)

ponynuts said:



			I think it is quite appropriate you use the term "cult" - which would support my theory that all followers of Parelli have been brainwashed!  This would explain your completely lame reasons for this despicable demonstration of, domination of an innocent animal with brute force and 'crass' showmanship.  If you are making a living from dishing out this rubbish, I would sincerely hope that you are able to diversify quickly and find a new use for your 'carrot stick' - because when people see this fiasco for themselves, they will at least have the courage to admit they have been 'scammed' by a couple of real cowboys!
		
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    "MY" completely lame reasons?

  I am looking around and confused to where I am? HMMMMM

If you have truly read all of THIS thread, up to this point on page 16 and still have that opinion of ME, than who am I to try to change your mind?


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## tongue~n~cheek (18 July 2010)

SophieRIDSH said:



			In one of the "Barney" videos Linda can be heard to say "Oh, good clunk" as the clip hits the horse in the chin

FWIW, if I want a horse to move her body I apply an aid to her body. I might even clunk a whip to her chest if a less fourceful request to back up is ignored.

The most common first reaction to a clunk on the horse's chin is that the horse moves her head, usually up.  Barney demonstrates this quite clearly.

Anyway, it's 9:30 AM on the east coast USA and I really should be cleaning stalls and getting mares in.  We are expecting a high of 95F or about 35C.  I'm really procrastinating
		
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I have basically answered this in another post.  But many, including the parelli program use many techniques to back a horse up.  the program is there to teach them to us.  however, because the wiggle waggle is the most noticable, and different from traditional techniques, it is the one that is focused on and gets the most attention.  the wiggle waggle is first and foremost a means to teach novices to stay SAFE and keep a horse out of your space.  something I think we all can agree is a must.  this is just one way to achieve that safety.


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## tongue~n~cheek (18 July 2010)

bay_beasty said:



			welcome to the forum pony nuts.... are you are long term lurker first time poster?
		
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I said earlier to some one pro parelli, that if you ignore and not inflame an opposing and rediculous remark, you will be noticed as having nothing but nobel and honest intentions, and those that mistreat you in that light will be set straight by one of thier own.

I would rather not be condescending, be recognised for who I am, earn my oppositions respect (not agreement) and see the alphas of thier own pack chase them away from the carcass.

thank you bay beasty for proving my point! and thank you ponynuts for giving her the opportunity to do so.


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## Tinypony (18 July 2010)

Good thread, thanks very much all friendly people involved!


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## Bay_Beasty (18 July 2010)

tongue~n~cheek said:



			I said earlier to some one pro parelli, that if you ignore and not inflame an opposing and rediculous remark, you will be noticed as having nothing but nobel and honest intentions, and those that mistreat you in that light will be set straight by one of thier own.

I would rather not be condescending, be recognised for who I am, earn my oppositions respect (not agreement) and see the alphas of thier own pack chase them away from the carcass.

thank you bay beasty for proving my point! and thank you ponynuts for giving her the opportunity to do so.

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I learned from the best


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## tongue~n~cheek (18 July 2010)

Caledonia said:



			I'm impressed at your patience, t'nc, thank you for your replies. 



It was interesting to read the breakdown of the left/right/introvert/extrovert brain labels. I can see how that would be helpful to a degree for the inexperienced owner; ie to have it pointed out to them their horse's 'type' so they understood their horse's boundaries. 

However, here's the first but; if they can't figure it for themselves without labelling, how can they figure it from the DVDs? 

And my second but; the four types are not nearly enough. Reading a horse is far more complicated than that. 

With it spelled out I can sweepingly identify each horse I have ever worked with within one of those boxes, but also some horses that can switch between the two. I have one that goes from mostly confident/lazy/stubborn to occasionally unconfident/quiet/unpredictable, it happens like lightning, and if I was inexperienced and continued with the assumption I was still dealing with box 1, I could well be very squished. 

I do understand you are saying this is a basic breakdown, but I think what I'm struggling to say is that these labels are dangerous if incorrectly applied or misunderstood, and if a programme suggests that you can learn this via DVD, it has to be missing something. 

Back in the non Parelli world, most successful trainers and horsemen (in all disciplines) read their horses and those of their pupils. It's part of the brief, and the biggest clue out there for working with horses, IMO. But that is done on a real level, face to face, with the opportunity for the trainer/rider to see and adjust. 

I think the less experienced buy into the idea, which in essence is a good IDEA, but not so great in practice if you don't have the innate understanding of the horse in the first place. As others have said in various places, the horses that I have seen that seem to mostly cope with Parelli seem to be resigned to their fate, not alert and sharing the 'bond', they appear worried to put a foot wrong. 
Unfortunately some of those that haven't coped have turned into confused and angry animals, whose trust and desire to please has long gone, because those using the tools don't understand what they are doing.

This is where Parelli fails the horses for me.
		
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Ok, I have only given the bare bones most basic description, and a non NH person can sweepingly identify every horse they have ever worked with.
So imagine a person with a 10dvd set on the subject with all told god knows how many hours.  this is the ONE thing that the parelli's can honestly take credit for.  there are specific strategies that apply to each of the "labels" that work best for that kind of horse.  And yes many horses are quadrant jumpers, thus making it a must to know the strategies for all, and address the horse that shows up at any given moment.  many people are now quite skilled in being able to read a horse, and many, like  my self do the chart for the horse in different situations.  I have a friend that has a mild LBE but when he was first started undersaddle the trainer (not parelli/not traditional)didnt know that he was an RBI with the saddle, thus he was bucking and rearing. I noticed it when she was saddling and asked her about it.  we stopped right there, changed her approach and took the time needed to fix it right there until he was confident with the saddle alone, and from that moment on she used the rbi strategies while doing ground work with the sadle on rather than the usual LBE strategies.  in less than 3 weeks, this novice rider had a confident horse with no more bucking. but his signs were so subtle they went unnoticed.  I who had a great deal of traditional common sense prior to parelli, and I have learned a great deal about horsenalities.  

If a novice has no "common sense" as you all call it here, but does in fact have a horse, how do you go about teaching them to read a horse?  Chances are it is similar, they just gave it a name, gave it labels, put it on dvd's so that people who do not have access to someone with common sense to get help from, can still have success reading a horse.  trust me it can be learned and is learned everyday to great success.  the birth of it was in the old L2blue. it isn't just the labels though that make it amazing, it is the included strategies to go with the labels that sets it apart from the rest.

when working with a horse i ask my self all the time, is he confident or unconfident.  i ask a horse to do something and watch his reply and ask my self again, often the int/ex is easy from there.  some times it is tricky, but is it not anyways.  people in all methods have difficulty, this is not exclusive to the parelli's.  no one is perfect.  no one.

I look at it like this, it is a tool.  when you look at me, the only tools you see are the halter/lead/carrotstick/string, what you can't see is the wharehouse of a tackroom inside my head.  some people only have a mental tack room the size of a foot locker, others the size of a shed.  Everyday I am at the mental tack store buying things to put in mine.  someday it will be the size of sears tower.

perhaps you could be seeing a person with a carrot stick that has not had much learning of the horsenalities.  again, many people carry the stick, not all are following parelli program.  if you really want to blow thier mind, walk up and ask them what horsenality the horse is? with a good aproach a dialogue could be had that you could actually gain more fact about the situation you are watching, rather than a lump sum assumption.  not everything is as it seems.

here is the chart for your viewing, it is on thier website

http://files.parelli.com/HorsenalityChart.pdf


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## vandypip (18 July 2010)

Well as far as I'm concerned the methods work. Provided that is, you keep the work up!!!


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## Tinypony (18 July 2010)

There are people with "carrot sticks" on my clinic, in all sorts of colours.  To be honest, if someone came up to them and asked what horsenality their horse is they would probably fall over laughing.  So just be careful that you're approaching a Parelli student if you do that.


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## vandypip (18 July 2010)

As far as I'm conerned the intelligent thing to do is keep a weanling out of your personal space before it gets any bigger and stronger. No rocket science there.


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## tongue~n~cheek (18 July 2010)

Tinypony said:



			There are people with "carrot sticks" on my clinic, in all sorts of colours.  To be honest, if someone came up to them and asked what horsenality their horse is they would probably fall over laughing.  So just be careful that you're approaching a Parelli student if you do that.   
	
	
		
		
	


	




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that's exactly my point

you cannot judge a horseperson by the color of thier stick


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## tongue~n~cheek (18 July 2010)

vandypip said:



			As far as I'm conerned the intelligent thing to do is keep a weanling out of your personal space before it gets any bigger and stronger. No rocket science there.
		
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in a perfect world i coudn't agree more


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## tongue~n~cheek (18 July 2010)

bay_beasty said:



			I learned from the best  

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I 'heart" you


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## vandypip (18 July 2010)

Why do parelli disciples consider others anti???? do they not recognise challenge over such concrete beliefs??? why all this new language that nobody else uses, ie; horseenality??? is it in the oxford dictionary??? I think not. Where is the common sense???


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## Bay_Beasty (18 July 2010)

vandypip said:



			Why do parelli disciples consider others anti???? do they not recognise challenge over such concrete beliefs??? why all this new language that nobody else uses, ie; horseenality??? is it in the oxford dictionary??? I think not. Where is the common sense???
		
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Ummm Vandypip, now come on, I am actually not going to stand by and accept this. I am sure that there are plenty of things that you say in your daily life that others would not understand but has a meaning to you and would not be found in the dictionary. I have so many words that mean things in my family that to outsiders are gobbledigook, and yet they have developed due to a relationship based on trust and history between my family. No, horsenaility is not a term found in the oxford english dictionary, but neither would neddy or ponio, both used on this forum by many, even though some complain, and yet we know what the term means, but if I said it to my friends who dont have horses they would look at me like i am an idiot (well they do that anyway but thats another story). Horsenality is a term used between a group of people who all have an understanding of that term and know the meaning, it is harmless.


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## vandypip (18 July 2010)

Fair comment bay beasty. BUT if we don't share the same sentiments we are all considered anti!! which is utter C**P. Do parrelians el al think that the average person interested in equine welfare are failing unless they engage in baby talk???


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## tongue~n~cheek (18 July 2010)

bay_beasty said:



			I personally, after reading this post, and some of the other post, but cant read it all. I have come to the conclusion that judging someone on one thing generally results in a poor judgement made. I.e. I am not a parelli-ite and don't really like Pat or Linda very much, however, T n C has opened my eyes a bit more, and reading into some of her posts I realise that her purpose for following the parelli route was not for profit, fame, glory and boasting, but because she wanted to get the best relationship out of her horse(s) as possible and this is the way she thought she could achieve this. Although its not the way I would choose, as I have found that in the past, esp so with my late Dougal, I had a brilliant, very trusting relationship with no carrot sticking involved, but some stern words and some tellings not askings and a great deal of trust, which was reciprocated, I can understand, why people would choose parelli. 

Back to my point, to judge T n C purely on the fact she does Parelli, is as arrogant and rude as some people think Parellis are to them. I have changed my opinion on Parelli, and will from now on be looking at the person, not the label. I am a christian and I would hope that people would not make assumptions on that fact and get to know who I am first. I think T n C has done a brilliant thing here, opening calm, friendly and necessary discussion about Parelli. You can see how my attitude has changed through the post, it is obvious.
		
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Awww thank you. you are right, not for profit, fame, glory or boasting.

nor is that my reason for this thread.  it honestly was just an experiment to see if it was infact possible to help people to see that you cannot judge a book by the cover.  nor can you judge the student based soley by the teacher, nor by thier peers.  we really shouldn't judge anyone.  let those who live in glass houses throw the first stone, or what ever the saying is
so if this can be achieved here, during such a volotile moment, then surely it can be achieved in the quiet moments in our own yards.  I hope parelli students are taking notice of the possibility for change. though based on our forum i say not.

I  have to say that we are all individual, and within the parelli student body, not everyone has had the means within which to purchase all the materials either.  everyone is doing thier best to make due with what they can afford.  we even do dvd sharing, with total strangers, swaping one set for another, and returning when done.

those of us with more experience, do what we can to help each other out, and we have an AWESOME support system with our savvy forum.  post a querry and rest assured you will get help.  we are not allowed to give training advice, but can share 'this is what happende to me, and what I did and how it worked out" kinda thing.


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## vandypip (18 July 2010)

this is common sense.


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## Bay_Beasty (18 July 2010)

Not by all Parellians. I agree some do treat non parelliians as idiots and patronise them, but this post has shown the exact opposite of that. Yes T n C has used these terms, but she is a very experienced parelli user and I expect these terms roll right off her tongue without her noticing. 

I am christian and will sometimes talk to other christians not from my church and accidentally use terms that are common in my church, and yet they have no idea what I am talking about. it is not because I want to belittle and patronise them, it is because in the heat of conversation I forget.


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## vandypip (18 July 2010)

I'm an athiest. There is no god. And that includes Parelli.


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## tongue~n~cheek (18 July 2010)

baymareb said:



			This has been mentioned before but I think it bears mentioning again.  When a method is marketed to inexperienced people, it makes sense to make it very easy to use and very hard to make terrible mistakes.  Whacking a horse in the face with a clip seems to me a mistake that would be bad to make.  However, if it's something that requires a lot of skill to do correctly, it seems a poor set-up for those novices.

I don't have any objection to using a well-timed smack to correct a horse but I am extremely careful about aiming it at the face.  I also want far more precision in any correction that I use than I could get from swinging a rope with a metal clip on it from a distance, especially when it is admitted that it takes a great deal of skill to do it properly.

This is an interesting thread because it is nice to read some explanations from a Parelli person that are not either defensive or simply "you don't understand."  Ultimately however, it has not convinced me of any real value to the method as opposed to any other.  In fact, I see some distinct disadvantages, one of which is the confusion that results when a horse trained with Parelli methods is handled by someone who does not use those same methods.  

For instance, when I lunge my mare, I expect her to stop on the circle rather than turn to face me which it seems is the norm in Parelli training.  Most people know ask their horse to back by pressing a hand on their chest and saying "back," not by shaking the lead at them.  Etc.  That method works fine and I see no real need for a change in it.  I'm not sure what the advantage is to having a horse back when you wiggle a rope at it as opposed to simply asking it to do so.

Not to say there aren't good ideas among all the other stuff but I've not seen enough to convince me that I need to change my whole approach to horse handling.  And the good things I've been able to glean are the common sense approaches I've seen used in so many other methods.
		
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i have adressed the novice + wiggle wiggle, snap in the face in another post.  

but this is were I would like parelli/nh students to take notice. here we have someone who has listened to a well reasoned explanation, and nicely responded with

"ok that's good for you, but it's not the way for me"

this should be good enough.  other people are reasonable, and capable of listening and making up thier own minds. this is where all too often the 'well then you dont understand" gets tossed into the mix.  it seems full well to me that she does, and while not fully, it is enough for her to have made an informed descision.  does this mean that she cares not about her relationship with her horse.  NO and it is ludicras to think so.  not every one obtains a good relationship the same way.  at the end of the day, if we are all happy with ourselves and our horses that is all that matters.  not the manner in which you choose to obtain it.

as for horses being handled by non parelli people and confusion.  of course there is some confusion, as there is when we handle a non NH horse, but who's to say which one is right.  we both have the same thing to say.  neither is wrong. neither right. it is what it is.

but a well trained horse is not ruined by different methods, and can quickly be retrained, if take the time to understand first what the horse knows, and go from there.  it would be well worth the effort for NH students to know some traditional methods if only to speak to a new horse in the way the horse knows, so first you can have that rapport with the horse, then slowly mold him into what you want him to be.


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## tongue~n~cheek (18 July 2010)

vandypip said:



			I'm an athiest. There is no god. And that includes Parelli.
		
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ROFLMAO!

this is at the top of the page and I have no Idea what caused you to say this, but I LOVE IT!

You go vandypip!


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## Bay_Beasty (18 July 2010)

vandypip said:



			I'm an athiest. There is no god. And that includes Parelli.
		
Click to expand...

  I love it ..... this has made my day


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## Echo Bravo (18 July 2010)

The thing to do is not buy any horse that has gone through the parellie training or offer 1/2 the asking price


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## Echo Bravo (18 July 2010)

Forgot to say as it's going to cost time and money to get it back to normal


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## tongue~n~cheek (18 July 2010)

SirenaXVI said:



			Firstly I have not read all of this thread but I am very impressed with TNC's measured and educated replies - thank you.

Secondly, I have never ever studied parelli, but having read the description of the 'friendly' game, I am surprised as I do this will all my youngsters

Click to expand...

thank you.

this is what I meant by, youd be surprised at how similar we actually are. And look you are, you just said so!

 the friendly is nothing more than sacking out, desensitizing and so forth.  it just has a name that is easy to remember.

I guess we could rename it, "common sense in a box"


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## tongue~n~cheek (18 July 2010)

Echo Bravo said:



			The thing to do is not buy any horse that has gone through the parellie training or offer 1/2 the asking price

Click to expand...

No offense, but I do take a bit of offense to that.  in reality you are right, if you don't like them, don't buy them.  but please don't devalue them.  my horses are priceless to me.  I would never offer a traditionaly trained person half the asking price simply because it was trained traditionally.

PRICELESS is say!


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## tongue~n~cheek (18 July 2010)

Echo Bravo said:



			Forgot to say as it's going to cost time and money to get it back to normal

Click to expand...

I am biting my tongue, I am biting my tongue, I am biting my tongue......

oh wait it's in my cheek!


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## Echo Bravo (18 July 2010)

But when you bought traditional trained horse.1) would you start to retrain Parrellie style or 2) leave well alone??


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## tongue~n~cheek (18 July 2010)

Echo Bravo said:



			But when you bought traditional trained horse.1) would you start to retrain Parrellie style or 2) leave well alone??
		
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I train EVERY horse to be what "I" want it to be, regardless of where it came from.  But I take the unwanted, misunderstood, starved, beaten and left for dead.  I take one mans trash and turn it into MY treasure.  and Pat and Linda are not the only ones I have to thank for that, but they are responsible for most of it!


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## tongue~n~cheek (18 July 2010)

Echo Bravo said:



			But when you bought traditional trained horse.1) would you start to retrain Parrellie style or 2) leave well alone??
		
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And it doesnt cost me a dime because i train them myself


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## Echo Bravo (18 July 2010)

So you trust none but your way. Do you every sell on your horses and what do you do if they treat your castoffs differant than you had trained them


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## Piedpiper (18 July 2010)

Hi TnC. I would just like to say that although I'm 'only' the mum of a horsey daughter, I've followed this thread with interest. I think this has been extremely brave of you to be this open, and to give us all the chance to understand things from your side of the fence. Please keep up the what is undoubtedly good work, and not let anyone put you off.
Before anyone jumps on me, by good work I mean this thread....I'm not in a position to comment on the rights or wrongs of parelli.


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## vandypip (18 July 2010)

tongue~n~cheek said:



			I train EVERY horse to be what "I" want it to be, regardless of where it came from.  But I take the unwanted, misunderstood, starved, beaten and left for dead.  I take one mans trash and turn it into MY treasure.  and Pat and Linda are not the only ones I have to thank for that, but they are responsible for most of it! 

Click to expand...

Ha ha!!! brilliant!!!!


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## Equiart (18 July 2010)

Years ago, I watched one of the original videos, "The 7 Games" on VHS. It was a great video. Simple and pure. Wish it was available on DVD today.


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## Shysmum (18 July 2010)

TiC, I think it's good that you train your horses your way, and how you want them. That's what I'm doing with my youngster (hopefully), but using other methods. There can be no right or wrong way, if it's done with total love and kindness, time and patience. And your own horse ends up how YOU want it to be. The bottom line is that if I ever did sell Shy (which I won't), the new owner would have to assess his schooling and see if it fits in with theirs ? 

 Tbh, from what I've read on this post, I think you may know a lot more than you - know - who.  I hope that isn't an insult btw. sm x


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## vandypip (18 July 2010)

There is no god!!!!


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## baymareb (18 July 2010)

tongue~n~cheek said:



			here we have someone who has listened to a well reasoned explanation, and nicely responded with

"ok that's good for you, but it's not the way for me"

this should be good enough.  other people are reasonable, and capable of listening and making up thier own minds. this is where all too often the 'well then you dont understand" gets tossed into the mix.
		
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You, tongue~n~cheek, are a rare jewel.  Your patience, good humor and tact are just amazing and I really think Pat and Linda should be searching you out and hiring you at top dollar to be their goodwill ambassador.

Hat's off.  I know I for one would probably have cyber-garotted someone by now!


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## tongue~n~cheek (18 July 2010)

vandypip said:



			There is no god!!!!
		
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seriously? this is not a thread about religion. no need for anyone to turn this into a bashing place.  I am still only on page 18 of questions, and would not like to sift through religion posts to find them.

that is only your opinion.


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## tongue~n~cheek (18 July 2010)

baymareb said:



			You, tongue~n~cheek, are a rare jewel.  Your patience, good humor and tact are just amazing and I really think Pat and Linda should be searching you out and hiring you at top dollar to be their goodwill ambassador.

Hat's off.  I know I for one would probably have cyber-garotted someone by now!  

Click to expand...

My emotional fitness is parilously close to the cliff at them moment.  I need a deep breath and cigarette before you all see my short commings. 

thank you for your kind words.  

yet there seems to be little notice in the parelli camp about the good coming from this and based on a post I just read over there, a few seriously need to see this.  I almost lost my breakfast.  I nearly responded as tongue~n~cheek just to put this jacka$$ in his place. caring nothing of my identiy being revealed.

but instead i watched one of my videos of my horse to remind me of what is most important to me.  my horses.


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## tongue~n~cheek (18 July 2010)

Echo Bravo said:



			So you trust none but your way. Do you every sell on your horses and what do you do if they treat your castoffs differant than you had trained them
		
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I dont feel the first part of this is in the best spirit, if I am wrong I appologise.  

I want my horses to respond to my cues, the way i want them to respond.

all of my horses have gone on to traditional homes, and are happy and well loved. that is my main concerne, not the method in which they will be trained.  as long as they are not abused I care not what they do.  I screen very carefully to find a good match and someone that i feel will always put the horses needs first.


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## tongue~n~cheek (18 July 2010)

Equiart said:



			Years ago, I watched one of the original videos, "The 7 Games" on VHS. It was a great video. Simple and pure. Wish it was available on DVD today.
		
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ebay, they crop up from time to time, but I suspect some are bootleg.

they do have a new 7 games dvd in the success series

http://shop.parellinaturalhorsetraining.com/product.jsf?productId=212


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## drover (18 July 2010)

Thanks for your reply tongue in cheek.

Yes you are correct I expressed and interest in joining Parelli back in '01 as I did believe they had a good honest agenda of trying to improve levels of horsemanship helping horses and owners, I was told I needed to have been assessed to level 3.

So I got myself a level 3 pack and submitted this assessment to parelli in the USA which was passed.

I made the decided not to join them as there were financial commitments, restrictions, loyalty issues and other general politics that really put me off.

To sum it up I was told I had to adjust my attitude.

The quality of these new instructors is a huge worry, it does not take much bad press to give people an air of doubt for most when it comes to NH (parelli in particular).

I know the original program contained masses of information but now its spread out and watered down so students have to buy more packs and dvds to get anywhere close to as much info -levels, patterns success series,liberty & horse behavior, all this info was all contained in just the levels pack.

Its clear that now the only agenda parelli have now is making mega amounts of money by getting their brand spread as widely as possible by these lower quality instructors who can afford approx £10000 for a 4 week course followed by a 1 week classroom instructor course. (I don't mean any offence to people who have done this as they were led to believe having a parelli logo by their name actually has some significance in the equine world when in reality it counts for nothing).

I have learned and will continue to do so from talented classical and modern dressage teachers, show jumping teachers, vaquero horsemen and many more and never been sold over priced dvds or had second rate tuition.

Now parelli is nothing more than a money making machine misleading many individuals.

Rant over!! Thanks TnC for your interesting feedback on all the questions raised


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## tongue~n~cheek (18 July 2010)

devon eventing girl said:



			Hi Tongue n Cheek,

Are you a Parelli instructor or staff member???

I study NH as well as event and try to learn from the best available (parelli or other)
I would love to know what happens to cause all the really Talented horsemen to leave the Parelli organisation?

I studied with Honza, Dave Stuart-who I understand was Pats right hand man,
James Roberts- who is still with Parelli and Garry Stevens who started my challenging now 5yo eventer for me(I know he was teaching at stoneleigh as a 2* but now seems to have left also?).

Does Pat not want very talented  horsemen like these as part of the Parelli organisation??
		
Click to expand...

First no I am not.  not affiliated in any way other than that of being a student.

We all would love to know that, BTW.  I suspect those close to them know the true reason.  but I think they are otherwise tight lipped about it.

I have no idea if they chose to leave, were asked to leave, or it was mutual.  I am sure each person has thier own reasons, when they do.  Also know Pat is serious about instructors only teaching the program and what they are licenced to teach.  for reasons I stated in an earlier post.  he is guaranteing me that if I want parelli help,and I pay for one of his instructors, that parelli help is all i will get, at the level that they are quaified to teach.  if anyone is doing otherwise, they can have thier cert yanked.  I know of one in particular who did.  but I also think that people are no different than chicks, some want to spread thier wings and fly on thier own wind.


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## baymareb (18 July 2010)

Just a comment on something I saw posted in response to the YouTube statement by PP.  Someone who was obviously a Parelli supporter posted that the negative response to the whole Catwalk thing showed that traditional trainers were frightened by the success of the Parellis and that this was a good thing as the goal was to essentially drive out anyone but Parelli practitioners and "change the world" for the good of the horse.

I thought it was rather a sad commentary.  I don't follow any one training method - as I've said before, I pick and choose the things that make sense to me from many people and methods - but even if I did, I don't think I'd want to eradicate other people's choices or ideas.

My personal opinion is that the more options we have to choose from, the better off we are and the more likely we are to find someone or something that works for us.

I have no idea if the above is a common viewpoint of Parelli followers - just thought it was very sad and narrow-minded to see it posted.


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## tongue~n~cheek (18 July 2010)

baymareb said:



			Just a comment on something I saw posted in response to the YouTube statement by PP.  Someone who was obviously a Parelli supporter posted that the negative response to the whole Catwalk thing showed that traditional trainers were frightened by the success of the Parellis and that this was a good thing as the goal was to essentially drive out anyone but Parelli practitioners and "change the world" for the good of the horse.

I thought it was rather a sad commentary.  I don't follow any one training method - as I've said before, I pick and choose the things that make sense to me from many people and methods - but even if I did, I don't think I'd want to eradicate other people's choices or ideas.

My personal opinion is that the more options we have to choose from, the better off we are and the more likely we are to find someone or something that works for us.

I have no idea if the above is a common viewpoint of Parelli followers - just thought it was very sad and narrow-minded to see it posted.
		
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WTF, first i have heard, and it makes me want to puke.

there are people who lie and say they are parelli to say stuff like that.  my cat can create a youtube acount for petes sake.

if it is true or real, they are morons for thinking it is even posible.  what bafoons.


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## tongue~n~cheek (18 July 2010)

i recieved a few pms regarding my post of being a bit peeved.  dont worry the only thing that will stop me from this is pure exhaustion. 

i am just really pissed.  delete delete.... am leaving to take my mom to the movies for her birthday, I will be back probably after you all are in bed.

sweet dreams


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## tongue~n~cheek (18 July 2010)

thank you for all your support, really, bottom of my heart, thank you!

I also am getting some pms dying to know who I am.  I only trusted one person with my identity, they have not failed me. and that person was not a parelli person

but if you think you know, tell me, I am dying to know if you are right!

much love

TNC


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## pippinpie (18 July 2010)

baymareb said:



			Just a comment on something I saw posted in response to the YouTube statement by PP.  Someone who was obviously a Parelli supporter posted that the negative response to the whole Catwalk thing showed that traditional trainers were frightened by the success of the Parellis and that this was a good thing as the goal was to essentially drive out anyone but Parelli practitioners and "change the world" for the good of the horse.

I thought it was rather a sad commentary.  I don't follow any one training method - as I've said before, I pick and choose the things that make sense to me from many people and methods - but even if I did, I don't think I'd want to eradicate other people's choices or ideas.

My personal opinion is that the more options we have to choose from, the better off we are and the more likely we are to find someone or something that works for us.

I have no idea if the above is a common viewpoint of Parelli followers - just thought it was very sad and narrow-minded to see it posted.
		
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What TnC said and more, that is not a view I have every come accross, not even with the purests, who can get up my nose.
Sorry TnC for butting in again but sometimes I can't sit by.
Keep up the good work, I've been sending genuine questioners over here from another thread as I don't have either your enthusiasm or speed for typing as you do


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## baymareb (18 July 2010)

I'm glad to hear that neither of you have heard that one.  I hoped when I read it that it was a lone crackpot.


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## tongue~n~cheek (18 July 2010)

thanks pippin.

I hope this goes without saying, but if you think you know who I am and want to share, please do so via PM.  if you are wrong, and call out the wrong name that is not fair to the other student who may want this kind of 'er um
noteriety


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## tongue~n~cheek (18 July 2010)

tongue~n~cheek said:



			thanks pippin.

I hope this goes without saying, but if you think you know who I am and want to share, please do so via PM.  if you are wrong, and call out the wrong name that is not fair to the other student who may want this kind of 'er um
noteriety

Click to expand...

that was suppose to be may NOT want this kind of........ooops


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## Tinypony (18 July 2010)

When you think of the greats who left Parelli, don't forget Philip Nye, the man who trained Magic.  (Whatever may be said now, Philip trained Magic, not Pat, and there is video evidence to prove that).
I think a lot of them left because they needed the freedom to teach in the way they wanted.  The original Parelli instructors didn't work to such a strict set of rules, and completed the tasks their way, which they passed on to their students.  These great horsemen and women couldn't fit into the more rigid guidelines set on how the programme was delivered.  (Parelli needed to know their programme was being delivered the same way by all, and it wasn't you see).
Others left because of the financial strain of being an instructor, and the rather demanding schedules of training camps and meetings. But I guess most left for a combination of those reasons.


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## Hollycat (18 July 2010)

This is one of my favourite threads at the moment as I am learning a lot and we all seem to be pretty friendly (long may it last) 

I felt very sad about some of TnC's comments. From her posts she is actually someone that if I was going to learn any Parelli from an instructor, she would be the type of instructor I would want   it just saddens me so much that she has had bad experiences in the past posting online and that she could no longer teach dressage if she was a Parelli instructor.  I have seen my Parelli friends do some really cool in hand work with their horses which to be honest I would love to learn - but not 100% Parelli style - I would want the instructor to adapt it to a more of a classical dressage slant.  However, many of my friends horses ridden work is - well - to be blunt, awful.  Any of my youngsters under saddle for a few weeks would be more responsive and light on the aids and have a greater understanding of them than many of these horses under saddle for years  

So this is another question for T n C. Do you think Parelli is (a) more greared to inhand work and (b) trail riding in terms of the ridden work?  Most of the Parelli horses I have seen ridden are plain unbalanced in a school. They cannot really canter one full 20m circle without breaking into trot etc. I understand not everyone wants to do dressage and most Parelli horses are ridden in a rope halter, but balance is balance. I also know perhaps the horses I have seen are unrepresentative of Parelli horses as a whole so it may be I have just been very unlucky.

I also want to say that I loved the video of the little girl and her pony   That really embodies for me all that horsemanship should be.  A trusting relationship with both parties (horse and rider) having fun


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## Echo Bravo (18 July 2010)

Begining to realise after 40 years of owning and breeding horses, I know nothing, because it's not the Parellie Way. Shall I have my horses shotAs they aren't Savvy and I'm definately not Savvy, is there no end in sightShall go and sit in a darkened stable with said horses


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## pippinpie (18 July 2010)

Tinypony said:



			When you think of the greats who left Parelli, don't forget Philip Nye, the man who trained Magic.  (Whatever may be said now, Philip trained Magic, not Pat, and there is video evidence to prove that).
I think a lot of them left because they needed the freedom to teach in the way they wanted.  The original Parelli instructors didn't work to such a strict set of rules, and completed the tasks their way, which they passed on to their students.  These great horsemen and women couldn't fit into the more rigid guidelines set on how the programme was delivered.  (Parelli needed to know their programme was being delivered the same way by all, and it wasn't you see).
Others left because of the financial strain of being an instructor, and the rather demanding schedules of training camps and meetings. But I guess most left for a combination of those reasons.
		
Click to expand...

I think it is perfectly natural (no pun intended) for people to want to go their separate ways, and who can blame any one, I too would want to one day have my own 'empire' and not be confined to only towing the rope. I don't know anything about any of the splits as I have not been a member for that long, but maybe it was the last straw that breaks the camels back, and a divide begins, who does not want to be their own master, were what happen is your choice, spreading your own wings not riding on the back of others.
I think it's whats called freedom.


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## Tinypony (18 July 2010)

I agree pippinpie, I think they wanted freedom.  Possibly not in order to have their own "empire", but just to be able to do things the way they wanted.
Hollycat, I hope TIC doesn't mind me chipping in re your post.  As an ex Parelli student, this is how I see it anyway.  In Parelli you work up your levels, when I was in it there were only 3 levels assessed, Level 1 was Partnership, Level 2 was Harmony and Level 3 was Finesse.  The majority of students didn't ever complete Level 2 (which may be one reason why they have re-jigged the levels, to encourage people more).  That wasn't because they weren't capable of completing Level 2, maybe they got what they wanted out of the system, or found a level that they were happy at.  In fact, the highest percentage of students vanished after they passed Level 1.
Anyhow, the problem with this was that the horses weren't really asked for true collection until they reached the Finesse stage.  You didn't put the bridle back on until Level 2, and then only when you had some "soft feel" when riding in your halter.  Just as in conventional stuff, a lot of people confused "soft feel" with the shape of the head and neck, and didn't connect it with lifted withers, working from behind and all that stuff.  And in any case, when you were riding using just a carrot stick for guidance, or "freestyle" with casual reins, you weren't concentrating on weight and balance, and your horse ended up dumped on the forehand. (I'm talking in past tense, but from what I have observed this is all still the case).  
OK, so what happens if someone finds themselves perfectly happy somewhere into Level 2, proud to be riding in the halter, and to be able to ride with no bridle, and loving the free feeling they get from "freestyle"?  And as a result, they decide they'll stick with that and just be a happy Parelli person hacking about and playing with their horse...  Well, if they aren't aware of what is going on with their horse anatomically, and so do nothing to correct it, they end up with an unbalanced horse that works mostly on the forehand and, well you know how that looks.  Does that sound familiar?
This is just how the programme works.  The idea is to progress through the programme as quickly as possible, refining how you and your horse work as you go.  (I believe Level 1 should take no more than 2 months?  Most hang around there much longer than that).  This is not the only way an "nh" style of trainer would work.  I know of others that concentrate on balance and true soft feel from day 1.  With or without a bit incidentally, because, contrary to what many believe, it is possible to have true collection without a bit.  It just takes a bit of work, but then most stuff with horses takes a bit of work, doesn't it?


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## ponynuts (18 July 2010)

tongue~n~cheek said:



			"MY" completely lame reasons?

  I am looking around and confused to where I am? HMMMMM

If you have truly read all of THIS thread, up to this point on page 16 and still have that opinion of ME, than who am I to try to change your mind?

Click to expand...

No you are right - I didn't read all of your postings because I had read enough, I don't need to hear from anyone who believes that the best way to put a bridle on a horse is to tie its leg up with a rope, you could never in a million years convince me or thousands of other very experienced horse owners any different.   I stick by my original thoughts of Parelli - if you are prepared to defend this 'showmans' public humiliation of that poor horse then so be it - but please do not patronise me or the majority of the equine world who have enough sense to see him and his wife for what they are - no more than circus horse trainers with no respect for horses whatsoever!  Now - I'll leave you to your few moments of fame, here anonymous on a forum  - following in the footsteps of your 'leader', praying on those with less experience than yourself and leave you to can a few bucks from other people's misfortunes!  I hope that by next weeks edition of H&H things may look a little different for the Pratelli's.


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## jinglejoys (18 July 2010)

pippinpie said:



			What TnC said and more, that is not a view I have every come accross, not even with the purests, who can get up my nose.
Sorry TnC for butting in again but sometimes I can't sit by.
Keep up the good work, I've been sending genuine questioners over here from another thread as I don't have either your enthusiasm or speed for typing as you do 

Click to expand...

  Ditto.
 A lot of Parrelli people are worried about comming on the H&H forum because of the treatment they get.I tend to just post the odd sentance but I don't have the words, energy,or confidence to go further.
   I don't know or care who you are I'm just pleased you can write better than I can


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## Tinypony (18 July 2010)

Ponynuts, you could at least have the courtesy to read Tongue in cheek's responses on the thread about Catwalk, which make it clear that she does not believe that was the best way to deal with him.
TIC has been polite, patient and courteous in all of her postings.  Why can't you be the same?


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## Graureiter (18 July 2010)

@ TnC: Thank You very much for the time and effort you are putting into this thread.  
Have you by any chance read "Top Horse Training Methods Explored" by Annie Wilson ? I just found it in a Halfprice Bookstore today.


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## pippinpie (18 July 2010)

Nice post TP
I think a lot of horses are build on the forehand and being ridden makes this worse, thats why so many want to get the horse into an outline as soon as they think possible, (while they are being broken/started, mostly ) in the UK anyway.
A lot of the videos I see of freestyle are of American quarter horses who by their conformation have a lower head carriage than some of our British/ continental horses and it also appears to me that many are left on their forehand, but a trail horse whether here, USA or any where in the world actually needs to learn to find its feet and look where it's going and you can't do that so well when riding in a finesse style.
Parelli has always said that the levels are a ladder to take you higher but if you (one) want to get off that ladder with a good level 2/3 you and your horse will still have come a long way.
Because my horses were all broken and competed long before I got into PNH I am finding it hard to take them back down to freestyle  one of my horses RBE/RBI hates it when I ride him freestyle (he's OK on hacks he likes it then) but on turf or a school he gets scared and looses trust, weird I know, but it like he's saying, if your not in control then I'm off and he gets faster and more unconfident and I have ended up taking back the contact and restoring his confidence, it's what he has always known, contact meant rider in control, no contact horse in control.
We are working very hard on this and keeping it very slow at the moment, but if my old friends saw me teaching him freestyle I know they would think I was nuts


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## Hollycat (18 July 2010)

Thanks for the explaination Tinypony. Makes sense now 

I think I am off to bed soon. Goodnight everyone!


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## Bay_Beasty (18 July 2010)

ponynuts said:



			No you are right - I didn't read all of your postings because I had read enough, I don't need to hear from anyone who believes that the best way to put a bridle on a horse is to tie its leg up with a rope, you could never in a million years convince me or thousands of other very experienced horse owners any different.   I stick by my original thoughts of Parelli - if you are prepared to defend this 'showmans' public humiliation of that poor horse then so be it - but please do not patronise me or the majority of the equine world who have enough sense to see him and his wife for what they are - no more than circus horse trainers with no respect for horses whatsoever!  Now - I'll leave you to your few moments of fame, here anonymous on a forum  - following in the footsteps of your 'leader', praying on those with less experience than yourself and leave you to can a few bucks from other people's misfortunes!  I hope that by next weeks edition of H&H things may look a little different for the Pratelli's.  

Click to expand...


Go back and read this post from the beginning. You have just made yourself look like a fool. T n C has not once said she condones the practice the Pat did that night. She opened this thread up for some discussion so people could get their questions answers. The fact you cannot be bothered to read the rest of her post is rude and ignorant. She has given her time freely over to answer questions other people have put forward in good faith. She has not been arrogant, rude, pushy, belittling or disrespectful. At no point has she said we are all fools and the Parelli is the only way, at no point has she thought herself better, and at no point has she fought for what pat did that night. If you cannot be bothered to read the post, fine, but don't post your opinions on it either. there unnecessary.


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## brighteyes (18 July 2010)

ponynuts said:



			No you are right - I didn't read all of your postings because I had read enough, I don't need to hear from anyone who believes that the best way to put a bridle on a horse is to tie its leg up with a rope, you could never in a million years convince me or thousands of other very experienced horse owners any different.   I stick by my original thoughts of Parelli - if you are prepared to defend this 'showmans' public humiliation of that poor horse then so be it - but please do not patronise me or the majority of the equine world who have enough sense to see him and his wife for what they are - no more than circus horse trainers with no respect for horses whatsoever!  Now - I'll leave you to your few moments of fame, here anonymous on a forum  - following in the footsteps of your 'leader', praying on those with less experience than yourself and leave you to can a few bucks from other people's misfortunes!  I hope that by next weeks edition of H&H things may look a little different for the Pratelli's.  

Click to expand...

I think you haven't read this thread in its entirity.  Everyone else has remained calm, objective and polite. Up until your post.  Feel perfectly free to differ as this thread was all to do with asking why.  If you don't like or disagree  on principle with the answers, fair enough.  Explanations are all t~n~c has offered and indeed given. No excuses, scathing comments or patronising words.


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## Battyoldbint (18 July 2010)

This has to be one of the most innteresting posts ive read on here,well done TIC and everyone who has contributed


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## pippinpie (18 July 2010)

As this is one of the most civil threads that I have participated in on HHO, can I ask for some forum help?
How do I get to highlight my words if I want to write between a quoted persons statements to distinguish between theirs and my words?
How long does the post allow you to edit it?
Thank you


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## Cobber (19 July 2010)

Wow, thats taken the whole night for me to read so I think ill throw my two cents worth in. First time i ever saw Parelli was at a demo in college and I have to say it brought tears to my eyes, i thought it was beautiful. Needless to say i instantly wanted to rush out and buy all the stuff and become a Parelli follower. Thank god for being a student as i couldnt afford all the kit.

I later realised that it wasnt for me and though I wouldnt say i follow any particular method i just do what works for me though i do rate Monty Roberts Kelly Marks etc. I started watching some american horse woman (cant remember her name )on rural tv (which has now been cancelled  and I did learn some useful tips for my spooky loan horse which i have put into practice effectively, though i didnt agree with everything she did.

I prefer MR as i like the idea of the horse coming to you as a nice place to be as opposed to Parelli which appears to be alot of getting the horse to go away from you. (Sorry im very parelli uneducated and correct me if this is wrong). I think there are elements of most horse training techniques which can be used in some positive way and I will always take time to sit and watch something new and different to see if there is anything that I can learn and use in my own way.

Thanks TiC for taking the time to respond to everyone. After all the followers you seem to be getting on here maybe you should start your own training method and flog a load of dvds  'I cant believe its not Parelli'

(You may not get that if in the states you dont get a certain brand of non butter margarine thats difficult to believe)

P.S I couldnt watch the whole video in your sig, i couldnt get past the cowboys lassoing that poor horse with the broken legs but i have signed the petition (twice by accident woops!)


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## baymareb (19 July 2010)

pippinpie said:



			As this is one of the most civil threads that I have participated in on HHO, can I ask for some forum help?
How do I get to highlight my words if I want to write between a quoted persons statements to distinguish between theirs and my words?
How long does the post allow you to edit it?
Thank you
		
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When you hit the "quote" button on someone's post, their words will come up bracketed by 2 codes.  The first at the beginning will be something like this



			
				the person's screen name and a number following and then another bracket said:
			
		


			The last is simply a bracket [then slash/ and the word Quote followed by ]

If you want to split their quote up, you have to begin and end each portion of the quote with the above codes.  Easiest way for me is to copy the first and longer code and paste it at the beginning of every succeeding quote and just type out the second code at the end of each quote.

Hope that makes sense.  

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## pippinpie (19 July 2010)

baymareb said:



			When you hit the "quote" button on someone's post, their words will come up bracketed by 2 codes.  The first at the beginning will be something like this



			
				the person's screen name and a number following and then another bracket said:
			
		


			The last is simply a bracket [then slash/ and the word Quote followed by ]

If you want to split their quote up, you have to begin and end each portion of the quote with the above codes.  Easiest way for me is to copy the first and longer code and paste it at the beginning of every succeeding quote and just type out the second code at the end of each quote.

Hope that makes sense.  

Click to expand...

Thank you so much for taking the time but I can do that bit fine.
What I have seen is someone wrote all their replies to different parts of the quote, within the quote and those words were highlighted red so you instantly saw who was saying what, but I found not highlighting facility, maybe they copied the whole quote put it maybe in 'Word' and highlighted it before copy/pasting it back if that makes sense :EEK:
		
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## baymareb (19 July 2010)

pippinpie said:





baymareb said:



			When you hit the "quote" button on someone's post, their words will come up bracketed by 2 codes.  The first at the beginning will be something like this

Oh, I see what you're saying!  I think in that case what you want to do is stick your cursor in wherever you want to comment, then click on the "A" at the top of the box (to the right of "font" and "sizes" - you can choose a color from the drop down menu and then write what you want to highlight.  Hopefully this works so I don't look like an idiot!  



Thank you so much for taking the time but I can do that bit fine.
What I have seen is someone wrote all their replies to different parts of the quote, within the quote and those words were highlighted red so you instantly saw who was saying what, but I found not highlighting facility, maybe they copied the whole quote put it maybe in 'Word' and highlighted it before copy/pasting it back if that makes sense :EEK:
		
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Click to expand...


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## tongue~n~cheek (19 July 2010)

tongue~n~cheek said:



			i recieved a few pms regarding my post of being a bit peeved.  dont worry the only thing that will stop me from this is pure exhaustion. 

i am just really pissed.  delete delete.... am leaving to take my mom to the movies for her birthday, I will be back probably after you all are in bed.

sweet dreams

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Just an appology here.  some one enlightened me that 'p_ssed' is a cus word here. so sorry for that, I have no idea your words though we supposedly speak the same language.  the first time I heard someone describe pulling an 8horse lorry, stuck in the inside lane of a 5 lane round about, we all sat there with blank looks on our face, as we couldnt see the humor in THAT~

even here in the states, east coas vs west coast, we call some things tottally different things.  my husband is from the north east and one time told me to fill my cup in the bubbler. um sure, just tell me what THAT is.  "water fountain"

any ways this person suggested i mention a fanny bag, to get you all rolling, though I wouldn't know in what context to use it in a sentence

I know what it is here, but I have a feeling, it is something quite different to you!

Krikey


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## tongue~n~cheek (19 July 2010)

SophieRIDSH said:



			FWIW, I like Clinton Anderson's take on this idea, comparing his method to getting a recipe from a friend

"I'm showing you how I make a cake.  If you use the tools I use and do exactly what I do you will get the same cake.  You can use different tools or ingredients or techniques and you still might get a very good cake, but it won't be the same cake."

WOW, I just went shopping P wants $40 for a halter....CA's are$25, and I do own several, different sizes
		
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I actually started NH with clinton.  I liked him because he was free to watch on rfd-tv.  I have seen EVERY one of his episodes.  And I liked that he does not leave one detail out.  He is just to agressive for me.  I have seen him in person, including a clinic he did at our barn before he was famous. I was traditional at the time and watched part of it, and was proud of several of the boarders for finally getting muffin out of thier space. I saw the dood in it and never critisized them.  then a trainer came out who was hodge podge and treated us all like crud and called us horse abusers, that i when I went on my anti-nh mission not a proud moment for me, but I was at the front of the bashing as NH was just getting a foothold, so I have seen the full progression of the ANTI movement from the beginning.

I too like clintons take on the cake, and also his approach to people.  Dennis reis is good but weird.  if I watch him, I turn the volume down. I have had personal dealings with cris cox, and he was a fair, smart, consise and effective and also has a good approach to people. I watch Julie goodnight, Ken Mcnabb, Craig Cameron, Richard winters, Monty roberts, and who ever else thay have have on tv.  John Lyons is a totally different approach, and while good, gives me good naps.  I think one of the phenoms for Parelli as for why he is more critisized (current events withstanding) is that he puts people off by the prof predator remarks, and slightly superior attitude.

i can offer just this one suggestion, when dealing with a person in a public speaking venue.  they may not be speaking about YOU.  there is a large mix of people in the stands, from all walks of not only horsemanship, but life.  so while he is talking to someone, it may not be you.  so on a personal level, no need to feel defensive, when he talks of things that are, um, not nice to do to a horse, he may be speaking to they guy next to you, that really needs to hear it.


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## tongue~n~cheek (19 July 2010)

Hollycat said:



			Thanks very much for your reply T n C.  My Parelli/NH friends could actually never tell me why verbal communication was discouraged so I am glad to have an answer.  Even if as a scientist and student of vet med I do not agree with the logic behind it I can see we will both be happy to agree to disagree on this issue   To follow this thinking that horses are not verbal communicators in the same way humans are - neither are dogs and yet 99% of people with dogs use verbal communication with them.  I bet the Parelli's also give voice commands to their dogs (if hey have them) - otherwise they probably have lots of chewed carrot sticks (joke).

As another poster said (sorry can't remember your name) you can improve your own skills by being quiet sometimes.  I have also found this, contrary to my nature though it is, so I do not discount training in silence. I just find that I need to select the best method for each individual horse and for myself at that particular time- and for me I do find voice commands very useful particularly with young horses. 

Everyone will train according to their own preferences.  I will borrow my friends Parelli DVD's and pick out anything new which I think is useful.  I don't have the personality to slaveishly follow 1 regieme and the thought of training with an instructor that could only use certain methods (even if these were not the best for the horse!!!) just because his guru says so brings me out in a cold sweat.  There is lots of me to learn from Parelli as there is with many other teachers.  I just need a horse to practice on now 

Click to expand...



what! no horse  I have a few spares that are feeling lonely.

May I make a suggestion?  going to anyways.  if you have a local rescue org, I am sure they would love all the volunteer  help they can get


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## tongue~n~cheek (19 July 2010)

Tannis said:



			This is a genuine question and it doesn't have a hidden agenda.

Why is there need to demonstrate that problems can be solved at speed?

I don't understand or know enough of the full range of Parelli methods but what puts me off from going further is the image that has been put forward that all problems/any problem can be solved by a miracle worker in front of an audience and within a matter of hours.

Do Parelli followers accept that sometimes things may take a little longer and for the sake of the horse in question that maybe sometimes they should be handled where there isn't the stress of an audience.  Or (and this really is genuine), it is part of the training that as you progress through the star rating level, the treatments get quicker.

My stallion was abused and he became aggressive and dangerous.  I needed help and I looked for it.  Potential helpers fell into 3 camps:

1.  yes I can help, it will take me x number of days
2.  yes I can help, send him to me and I'll let you have him back in x  number of weeks
3.  I don't know if I can help or how long it will take but I'm prepared to try

I went with the person from the third group because to me, that was honest.  She wasn't Parelli and she spent the first session with my stallion and then every subsequent session with the two of us.  Sessions lasted as long as they needed to - a couple were no more than half an hour, several were over three hours.  But at no point was any expectation set about achieving a result in a set timeframe.

That's the bit about Parelli that worries me.  Sometimes there are steps forwards and sometimes massive leaps backwards - I think even Mr Parelli accepts this in his apology about FOTH.  So, why is it still "sold" on speed of delivery.
		
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This of course is only my perception, but I think few would disagree.

The "show" with the parelli's is quite different from the program, in regards to speed.  When they are on tour, yes it is promotion for the program.  Pat and Linda only have a couple of hours to show you what they've got.  Usually the venue includes the blah blah blah's, who we are, what we stand for, and what we can offer you.  they have students of various levels come and show off from the local area, so you can see what the program has done for them.  lessons with a student to show they might solve a problem that the student may be having.  A demonstration of them and thier own horses. 

And of course the problem horse.  And of course it would be not much of a promo, if they solve no issues with the horse infront of you.  But what I think the problem horse demonstrates, is that

1. this horse has not been exposed to the techniques before
2. what the current state of the horse is having used other methods or no method.
3. that the said horse does have a problem, even if the only problem is it's owner

and what the results show is

1. that the program does work
2. that the program does work
3. that the program does work

the only reason speed is required is because they only have that small window of time with butts in the seats.

people want to see the change and need to see the change

or they walk out the door saying, "i knew it didn't work"

not much of a promo if they leave saying that.

I have never seen a horse that pat couldn't change easily in that time frame. Until now.  while the horse changed, the perception of the crowd doesn't.  or does it?  I think this last weekend speaks heavily to that question.  danged if you do, danged if you dont.  My personal opinion, the accusations of "it didn't work, pat couldn't do it" had he quit sooner than later, would have been far less damaging for all involved than the accusations they face by continuing on.  Did he help the horse? yes  was it pretty? no (opinion in another answer)

as far as the program goes, no where do they say, you must/should do this at speed, infact it is the contrary.
no where is there 'taught' quick fixes. nor do us as students think we can fix horses at speed.  however, the more you know, the less time it takes. we as students no only accept that, but we say 'whew"

the 'show' is also a way for us students to go and learn and get inspired, and to meet new friends.

the program has no time frames, but they also don't want you to get stuck either, so the current audition process is a live, unedited version, and they don't expect it to be perfect, they want to see what you do when it doesn't go as you planned. 

myslef as an example, I was expecting perfection of my self, and making things worse for both me and my horse. put off the audition, went on to something else, and came back to it with a fresh mind.  it was far from my expectations of myself, and I didn't think I would pass.  but I said "screw it, lets see what they have to say about this' sent it in and passed. yeah!

I am a big advocate of progressing and not being affraid to try.

PS, there is another question I need to answer about why parelli takes so long  as I have said....everyone has a different perception of parelli/NH


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## tongue~n~cheek (19 July 2010)

vandypip said:



			Have watched the above and I'm in no doubt worse goes on!! and signed the petition.
		
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thank you.  the numbers are really starting to come up


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## tongue~n~cheek (19 July 2010)

Tinypony said:



			I've got a question T-I-C.  The post above about the Yo Yo says 
"He should have used much longer phases phase 1 minimum 5-8 seconds, same with all phases, etc..."
Now, I agree that is the Parelli 4 phases as it's taught, but when I saw Pat himself working with horses, it isn't how he applies it.  When he uses 4 phases it's much quicker.  For example, his arm starts to go back straight after his finger waggling hasn't worked, he taps the ground and then his arm is getting ready to make contact.  Haven't you observed that when you have been with him?
Just to make it clear, although it looks pretty mean when Pat does this (and I don't agree with the use of 4 phases anyway), I think in a way he's fairer on the horse.  Students count the seconds between escalating each phase, and as they do so they desensitise the horse to the phase they are using and that encourages the horse to brace and endure a higher phase.  Then, they often have to repeat many times before their own personal "phase 1" starts to work.  Pat kind of goes "I'm asking, it's coming, it's got you!", really quickly.  And because of that the horses get real responsive to phase 1 real quick.  So it's sort of no pain no gain (and again I'm not pro that approach), but it is fairer in a way because the horse suffers less grief, swinging clips and nagging in the long run.
I've first saw Parelli at a Savvy Day in 1998 by the way, and it was a great day because loads of students were involved and showed what they could do.  The big hype these days is very un-British and alien.  However, it was seeing Pat himself work with horses away from Savvy Conferences that started my move away from Parelli, as I had seen a few other trainers who got the same (and often better) results with a lot less stress to the horse.  In other words, I didn't follow the PNH wisdom that you don't have enough savvy to evaluate another trainer until you've passed your (old!) Level 3.
		
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yes.  4 clear equal phases are for teaching. (I prefer 4seconds each)  either the human or horse.  as you would imagine, it takes the human longer to get the concepts than the horse.  when a student already has the concepts down, the move on to L2 phase concepts of a long phase 1 10+ seconds, and a quick 2-3-4, 1-2 seconds.  when it is just a matter of teaching the horse, I only use the 4 clear phases a few times, till i see the horse gets the intended message before phase3, then I move on to L2 phases. this is usually for me now a matter of minutes. 

if I have a horse crowding me, I got to phase 4 first.  safety first.  but my level of phase 4 now is higly developed and is usually one good pop, then I turn my body away.  I almost always get the look of, "oh" "sorry" "that was rude of me"

I answer, 'why yes it was. wanna try it again?"

a rarely get a yes

for me, crowding is a #1 no no.  it usually prevents no-no's #2 & 3, biting and striking.  if they arent on top of you, they can't do those.

I flat out do not tolerate it.  it just isnt safe and since i have kids around, they all know not to crowd  ANYONE

I believe EVERYONE at EVERY level has he right and intelligence to evaluate a trainer in regards to using the trainer for thier own selves, and even if they know the trainer well.  periodic "re checks" I feel are good for all involved.  rather than blind acceptance for all time.


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## tongue~n~cheek (19 July 2010)

fburton said:



			For shame! You don't deserve that at all. They should be thanking you for being such a gracious ambassador, because your posts here are doing far more to let people see the good aspects of PNH than the current, official spin.
		
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I'm on page 22, woo hoo!

thank you.  though that is not my mission to try to fix this situation, I would be a fool to think it would.  i agree it does have a great side effect huh?

I need not glory or fame
to attach to my name


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## Tinypony (19 July 2010)

Re what Pippinpie said about Freestyle...  We may be refering to different levels 2+3.  With the old levels only a handful of people ever made it to level 3 before they left (or became instuctors).  The new level 3 demands a lot less.
As for teaching a trained horse Freestyle, I do wonder what the point is sometimes.  I you've got a horse that works well now, why have it start to work heavy on the forehand at all?  Take what you've got and make sure you've got proper balance, then allowing your horse to work low will be a matter of changing the position of your hands.  But it still won't be heavy in the front.  That's a much more difficult thing to find than "freestyle".  
I'm sure this is why many people wonder why the Parelli horses are being allowed to stumble around areans unbalanced.  If you take a horse that has relied on the rider to hold it up for years, then you take all that away, they flounder.


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## tongue~n~cheek (19 July 2010)

I am off to bed, I don't know if you guys get the same american movies that we do here, or any at all.  but "night and day" with tom cruz and cameron diaz, two thums up for sure. 

see you on the flip side.


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## Tinypony (19 July 2010)

p.s.  TIC maybe some day I'll persuade you that you don't need phases or a "good pop".


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## pippinpie (19 July 2010)

baymareb said:





pippinpie said:



			Originally Posted by baymareb  
When you hit the "quote" button on someone's post, their words will come up bracketed by 2 codes. The first at the beginning will be something like this

Oh, I see what you're saying! I think in that case what you want to do is stick your cursor in wherever you want to comment, then click on the "A" at the top of the box (to the right of "font" and "sizes" - you can choose a color from the drop down menu and then write what you want to highlight. Hopefully this works so I don't look like an idiot! 



Thank you so much for taking the time but I can do that bit fine.
What I have seen is someone wrote all their replies to different parts of the quote, within the quote and those words were highlighted red so you instantly saw who was saying what, but I found not highlighting facility, maybe they copied the whole quote put it maybe in 'Word' and highlighted it before copy/pasting it back if that makes sense 

Click to expand...

Ahh now I think we are on the same page now, but the problem is I don't have any box/bar with options for font size/ colour and thats what puzzles me, on the other forum I use there are options to size/ colour and highlight plus add smileys and other things but I don't seem to have any of those options on this forum! 
I have had problems with my IE not showing sites as they should, I will open up my Google chrome and see if this site comes up better.
Thank you for your help
		
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## pippinpie (19 July 2010)

pippinpie said:





baymareb said:



			Ahh now I think we are on the same page now, but the problem is I don't have any box/bar with options for font size/ colour and thats what puzzles me, on the other forum I use there are options to size/ colour and highlight plus add smileys and other things but I don't seem to have any of those options on this forum! 
I have had problems with my IE not showing sites as they should, I will open up my Google chrome and see if this site comes up better.
Thank you for your help
		
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Problem now solved, a bit of lateral thinking did it, when you hit a brick wall you have to make a turn!
I went to my  user cp, then edit options, then Miscellaneous Options and there it was I only had basic edit options and I changed it to standard and voila I get my new edit bar on the write new post box 
Thanks for helping.
		
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## Tannis (19 July 2010)

Thanks for taking the time to explain.

I was a bit worried it was all about results at any cost and at hyperspeed.  Thanks for putting it in context and explaining the difference between the "show" and the "programme"


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## tongue~n~cheek (19 July 2010)

Tinypony said:



			p.s.  TIC maybe some day I'll persuade you that you don't need phases or a "good pop".   
	
	
		
		
	


	




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I should have used more detail I suppose, it isn't the FIRST thing i "try" to keep a horse off me. but due to the fact that I have been writing ALOT, I try to stick to as relevant of details as possible to answer the question.  also to stick to the representative of parelli, and not what may be "tools" from my previous days.  with the vast experience that "I" have with dangerous horses (not difficult just dangerous) I don't play around.  I have had a 15hh yearling tb, rear up and land on top of me, after draging me 300 feet with a chifney bit in mouth, pulling one arm out of the socket, and nearly disloging the other one with a hoof, after hitting me in the head. (looooong time ago, I was 17yo?)

I make no bones about my safety.  safety and learning are two different things in MY book.  setting parelli aside.  again a brain of my own.  if I feel my life is in danger, that is fixed first, then learning can begin.

this may sound like an oxy-moron here, but I protect my personal space, and that of the ones I love, at all costs from anything, be it human or beast.  My reactions are based on my perception of the "level" of the threat.  I have learned to make split second descisions.  i am NOT always right.  if NOT, I do what I can to make up for any harm that I have caused.  But all is out of "deffense" not "offense" if that makes "sense"

my personal philosophy

"stay the @#$%^& off me, and then we'll talk"

as far as 


Tinypony said:



			p.s.  TIC maybe some day I'll persuade you that you don't need phases or a "good pop"
		
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perhaps you will.....................perhaps you will http://www.partipeeps.com/smilies/smiley_hug.gif

feel free to PM me what ever you wish and I will have a looksie.
.
.
.
.
ok this it kinda 2 posts in one, i am glad i got up for a cigarette before I hit the send button. I feel the following should shed some light on to the exact purpose of this thread. which is 'just how easy it is to put some on one the deffensive" how just one simple word can change the interpretation of ones "intentions".  in this case the word "pursuede" 

for ME that word implies that somehow you feel I need to be enlighted of my ignorance and that I need to be shown a better way.

Now I am intelligent enough to know you may well not feel that way.  but intelligence is not the only thing that guides us in our lives.  we each come from a very different set of life experiences and websters dictionary isn't the only thing that gives a word meaning.  often it is our experiences with words that creates an emotion.  emotions often are the driver of our craft, not intelligence.

I put alot of thought into the things I do, both before and after the "do".
there is little in my life that I don't put ALOT of careful thought into.  this thread is one of them.  I had a thought, "what if", and I acted on it, with little thought.  at first I thought I had made a foolish mistake in doing so.  it would have been nothing for me to walk away and never act on any reply posted as no one would be the wiser to who did it.  but I didn't as my integrity even to this annonomous avatar is important to me.  it has evolved and caused me to ponder a great many things about what I do, and what I think.  But this thread is about explaining to those who have questions about parelli NH, because that seems to always be the one that is so publicly questioned, not the others, though they all do similar things with similar equiptment.  and I am only doing it because parelli is infact what "I" do, though I am quite fluent in other methods.

I always knew this was possible, but now it is no longer my thoughts.  It is real.  It can be done.  And in the face of great challenges and highly charged emotions. I ask my self why no one is talking about it on the savvy forum. Not about me, but about this experiment, and how it is going.  it seems that few care about the fact that a way for the door to be opened for themselves at thier own barns has been presented to them. there is no talking about "wow, i didnt see how my own interactions could be making my situation about my yard more difficult for myself" or "wow, i didn't realize that traditionlist may have been beat about by an NH'er before me, they associate that with me, maybe if I too open the door for conversation, I can make MY life better for co-existance". Quite ofthen there is a thread started about how upset someone is that they are yet again getting bashed about the head, soley because they do parelli, regardless of thier level of envolvment.

I will say that this imformation has been presented to them before, and was well recieved by some, there just was no proof. it was a mere "theory" of mine.  now there is proof, it can be done.

I don't care about "credit' for this.  truly I don't.  I did nothing more than to try to show those that are experiencing difficulty with interpersonal relationships about thier yards, that it is in fact possible.

but alas, no talk of it.  no pondering and discussing of it.  no blinding flashes of the obvious.

back to us.  I admit, I felt defensive about what you said.  why? I don't know. I just know that I do/did. are there "other" and possibly "better" ways to do things?  Of course there are.  I am full aware of that fact.  Is parelli an 'other' and possibly "better" way that what others are doing? Of course it is.  but that is not what this thread is about.  it is not about who is right or wrong. who is better.  what technique is better. while I welcome discussion about those things, my point was to help the parelli students who want it, be understood for not being brainwashed, blind sheep, who follow without question.  And to answer questions about it.  no where do I state in any of my answers that is the only way or the best way, just the parelli way, as I understand it.

When i got into NH, it was because my performance horse was injured and no longer able to compete. I had a small child and a new large farm, little else to do with my horse, and set about to prove that NH was stupid.  to prove it wouldnt work with dressage.  to prove to those mindless minions that they were brainwashed, and needed to leave me alone. But I, unlike many, at least decided to give it a try, an honest try, to see if it had ANY merit, not just rely on assumptions and other peoples opinions.  but my underlying perception was that it didn't have any merit, and I was hellbent on proving it.  little did I know, they it would take me on the journey of a life time (much like this thread) I have to say, in the beginning, I looked a fool.  blogeoned myself with that stick and string.  for such an experienced horse person, I looked like I had just bought my first horse and a copy of "horses for dummies" and set about to get my self killed.

because of this, because I was someone who spent 3yrs of my life, defending my ways and bashing NH'rs (I am *REALLY* good at it by the way) I felt that I was best suited for this mission.  for I have spent the last 8yrs now defending NH.  I know both sides of the fence quite well.  I have seen not only the view from each side standing firmly on the soil, but also the view from the top of the fence, as I sat there a great deal.

I am not here on this thread to promote nor defend parelli natural horsemanship, only to explain it as I understand it.

I do not expect that this will have much significance to anyone other than myself.  but I do know, that I have changed the mind of at least one person (not conversion/just perception) and we are now friends.  she is the only one I have revealed my self to, besides the one who saw right through me.  my new friend who vehemently hated parelli and its followers(correct me if I got the hate wrong) and not a fan of mine in the beginning, has now seen some of my videos, and as a friend can see the beauty it holds for me.  what more can a person ask for? I have touched the life of 2 people, hers and my own. it is something that i will treasure until i die. (wiping tears from face now)

so whether or not I respond to anyones request to see what "they" do, trust me when I say, that your words are not falling on def ears, though I may stay mute.  This thread has caused me to reconsider my position on things I regard as fact. so in a sense, you all are touching my life in a very profound way, though I may not tell you personally (i have alot of dang quesions to answer) I can only imagine that if this thread has done that for me, that it is doing it for some others as well.

Keep in mind that words are the most powerful weapon in our arsenal.  wars have been started, faught with, and won, by words alone. the least we could all do is be civil to our fellow man, and give them the courtesy of the benifit of the doubt.

Ramling thoughts concluded, we will now resume our originally scheduled program.

ps, I am not injured by your word, "it's all good" pm me what ever you would like for me to review.


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## tongue~n~cheek (19 July 2010)

Wow, here is to the power of ONE word. TP, you have no idea what your tiny post has set in motion in my mind. don't worry, it is a good thing.  But a tangent now is what I am on.

Let me just say this to the power of what parelli teaches, like no other I might ad.

Our horses are our mirror.  A direct reflection of our selves.  when I present my horse with a question, he can no less than offer me the truth about the manner in which I have presented the question.  What ever his reply, it is infact the truth.  If my horse responds in a good way, than I have presented my question with love and understanding.  If he responds negatively, I know that I did not.  He is not the one who misunderstood, I am the one who presented it wrong.

If you, in what ever "method" you use, see your horse as perfect, then I believe that your horse see's YOU as perfect.  He is your mirror, your judge and jury, not I or anyone else.

And I have the parellis to thank for teaching me that one! which is why I no longer ride with a caveson.  it prevents my horse from being my mirror, from providing me with valuable feedback about the lightness of my hands.


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## Bay_Beasty (19 July 2010)

tongue~n~cheek said:



			.

Our horses are our mirror.  A direct reflection of our selves.  when I present my horse with a question, he can no less than offer me the truth about the manner in which I have presented the question.  What ever his reply, it is infact the truth.  If my horse responds in a good way, than I have presented my question with love and understanding.  If he responds negatively, I know that I did not.  He is not the one who misunderstood, I am the one who presented it wrong.
		
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Like this idea!! 



tongue~n~cheek said:



			which is why I no longer ride with a caveson.  it prevents my horse from being my mirror, from providing me with valuable feedback about the lightness of my hands.

Click to expand...

Why and how??


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## Tinypony (19 July 2010)

Blimey TIC, I need to have a good read through that lot.  
Just to say, don't read too much into the word persuade.  I was persuaded that I didn't need 4 phases, metal clips or a "pop" just by watching and riding with other trainers who somehow managed without.  That doesn't mean to say I wouldn't defend my space with whatever needed if I was in a dangerous situation, but somehow I don't seem to provoke the dangerous situations as much now as I used to... hmmm...  The clips are gone and the "feel" remains, for the refined work.  I have a video that I will link you to when it's finished, that shows this quite well.
Have you watched Mark Rashid work?  He takes a horse and the owner tells him all the dangerous things it does to everyone.  He just works away, and somehow the dangerous things don't happen, and the horse makes a change.
Oh yes, my horses are perfect, truly they are.  They always want to be right, I just need to bear that in mind.  Someone once said to me that horses are the dolphins of the earth, they were put here to teach mankind.  They are as tolerant as dolphins as well maybe?


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## Alyth (19 July 2010)

IMO 4 phases is important - it's how you obtain lightness.  By starting lighter than necessary and gradually increasing pressure until you get the result you want and then instantly quitting.....


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## Tinypony (19 July 2010)

Yep, that's one way to get it...


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## tongue~n~cheek (19 July 2010)

Tinypony said:



			Blimey TIC, I need to have a good read through that lot.  
Just to say, don't read too much into the word persuade.  I was persuaded that I didn't need 4 phases, metal clips or a "pop" just by watching and riding with other trainers who somehow managed without.  That doesn't mean to say I wouldn't defend my space with whatever needed if I was in a dangerous situation, but somehow I don't seem to provoke the dangerous situations as much now as I used to... hmmm...  The clips are gone and the "feel" remains, for the refined work.  I have a video that I will link you to when it's finished, that shows this quite well.
Have you watched Mark Rashid work?  He takes a horse and the owner tells him all the dangerous things it does to everyone.  He just works away, and somehow the dangerous things don't happen, and the horse makes a change.
Oh yes, my horses are perfect, truly they are.  They always want to be right, I just need to bear that in mind.  Someone once said to me that horses are the dolphins of the earth, they were put here to teach mankind.  They are as tolerant as dolphins as well maybe?
		
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fair enough No I havn't seen mark rashid, but have heard much about him, and he is someone I would like to know more about.  I only chose parelli because it had the most to offer me overall.  since I don't compete anymore, it offers goals and achievements to strive for and the all mighty material recognition us humans so prize.....ribbons!  I am proud of what I have achieved and what my parelli friends have achieved, and will say again, there are some kids out there taking this stuff by the reins and running with it.  these kids are true horsmen, and cant even VOTE.  they are the stars of the future.  not I.  I am no master horseman.  My horses are not dangerous, but in what I do, many are.  I am sure Mark can walk right in and never a ripple in the water does he create.  and surely that is something to strive for, and rest assured, when done with questions, I will be on the prowl again.

I have always beaten to the rhythm of my own drum.  I have little money and do the best I can with what I can afford.


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## tongue~n~cheek (19 July 2010)

Alyth said:



			IMO 4 phases is important - it's how you obtain lightness.  By starting lighter than necessary and gradually increasing pressure until you get the result you want and then instantly quitting.....
		
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## tongue~n~cheek (19 July 2010)

Graureiter said:



			@ TnC: Thank You very much for the time and effort you are putting into this thread.  
Have you by any chance read "Top Horse Training Methods Explored" by Annie Wilson ? I just found it in a Halfprice Bookstore today.
		
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thank you and your welcome I have never heard of it, but will put it on my list of must reads.  I will say this, as I am not, um rich, I will gladly hand over my mailing address for anyone who wants to send me books you think I should read call it the enlighted horsewoman foundation! all donations welcome


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## tongue~n~cheek (19 July 2010)

ponynuts said:



			No you are right - I didn't read all of your postings because I had read enough, I don't need to hear from anyone who believes that the best way to put a bridle on a horse is to tie its leg up with a rope, you could never in a million years convince me or thousands of other very experienced horse owners any different.   I stick by my original thoughts of Parelli - if you are prepared to defend this 'showmans' public humiliation of that poor horse then so be it - but please do not patronise me or the majority of the equine world who have enough sense to see him and his wife for what they are - no more than circus horse trainers with no respect for horses whatsoever!  Now - I'll leave you to your few moments of fame, here anonymous on a forum  - following in the footsteps of your 'leader', praying on those with less experience than yourself and leave you to can a few bucks from other people's misfortunes!  I hope that by next weeks edition of H&H things may look a little different for the Pratelli's.  

Click to expand...

ROFLMFAO! I just knew my evil plot would be discovered, to fly to a far away land and bilk thousands of horse owners, out of millions of dollars, when I dont' have 2 penies to rub together to walk across the street!  Someone call america's most wanted, turn me in before I do more harm! Ahh haa haa, I needed a good laugh!

I wish I could have picked two thumbs up icons for this one!


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## tongue~n~cheek (19 July 2010)

Aaahhh  HA HA HA HA, MAYBE  I can get hired in the secret service.


http://media.photobucket.com/image/roflmao smiley/PrimroseSue/Smileys/smiley_ROFLMAO.gif

http://i625.photobucket.com/albums/tt335/bjtilt/08-51.gif

http://media.photobucket.com/image/roflmao smiley/prestonjjrtr/Funny/SmileySignroflmao.gif?


http://i833.photobucket.com/albums/zz256/vengenness/Untitled.jpg


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## dressedkez (19 July 2010)

Sadly life is too short to read all of this pirelli post......To me, lots of chucking ropes around does not make a horse, and I did watch it in action with a local horse that was bought to our local show on Sat.......did it make a difference, did she jump on it and do a class - no!
Could it be a method for people to make money from those who don't know too much, or have a difficult horse - well. yes maybe? 
Does it work with those who really know what they are doing? Probably yes....can you tell those who are not natural horse people how to do it.....probably not!
Should we go back to grassroutes horsemanship - yes please! And lets hope there are still some people out there who remember how to do the proper breaking process, and can teach others......


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## pippinpie (19 July 2010)

dressedkez said:



			Sadly life is too short to read all of this pirelli post......To me, lots of chucking ropes around does not make a horse, and I did watch it in action with a local horse that was bought to our local show on Sat.......did it make a difference, did she jump on it and do a class - no!
Could it be a method for people to make money from those who don't know too much, or have a difficult horse - well. yes maybe? 
Does it work with those who really know what they are doing? Probably yes....can you tell those who are not natural horse people how to do it.....probably not!
Should we go back to grassroutes horsemanship - yes please! And lets hope there are still some people out there who remember how to do the proper breaking process, and can teach others......
		
Click to expand...

After reading that I wasn't sure what your question was, could you please ask again? or were you just making a statement


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## dressedkez (19 July 2010)

pippinpie said:



			After reading that I wasn't sure what your question was, could you please ask again? or were you just making a statement 

Click to expand...

I think it was both.........How many horses are really 'sorted out' using Pirelli? And is Pirelli a short-cut for those who have no horsemanship skills but want some sort of utopian answer for their horses? And how much money do 'professional' pirelli people make out of those poor people who can't cope with their horses, and hope that Pirelli is the panecea? And how many real horse people are still out there who can turn horses around - but can't possibly give them back to someone who does not have a clue? Tell me do the Pirelli experts ever have a faliure???


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## pippinpie (19 July 2010)

dressedkez said:



			I think it was both.........How many horses are really 'sorted out' using Pirelli? 
I don't know, mine have benifited thats for sure.
And is Pirelli a short-cut for those who have no horsemanship skills but want some sort of utopian answer for their horses? 
No there are no short cuts that I know of. It starts of very very basic so it doesn't skip anthing.
And how much money do 'professional' pirelli people make out of those poor people who can't cope with their horses, 
I don't know, probably the same as any hard working BHS instructor.
and hope that Pirelli is the panecea? And how many real horse people are still out there who can turn horses around - but can't possibly give them back to someone who does not have a clue? 
There probably just as many people out there that don't have a clue as their are Parelli people

Tell me do the Pirelli experts ever have a faliure???
Not sure what you mean!!!

Click to expand...

Maybe TnC will be more helpful


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## tongue~n~cheek (20 July 2010)

I made this for my new friends, it sums up how I feel right now.  I guess sometimes you don't realize how bonded you are till you break free.
I am full aware of the bubble this thread is in, that it doesnt represent the real world, and I know it wont last for ever, but the friends I have made here will.  All the horses in the video are wild, some pics taken by my best friend, and the last pic is of my friends mustang, Kai, while still in a holding pen before she adopted him.  Anyways, this may be lame and corny, but i think, for now, it says it all for me

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y3fWYzPtNTw

Lyrics to the song
Not Ready to Make Nice
by the Dixie Chicks


Forgive?
sounds good, 
Forget?
Im not sure I could
They say 
time heals everything
But Im still waiting

Im through 
with doubt
Theres nothing left for me 
to figure out
Ive paid a price
And Ill keep payin

Im not ready to make nice
Im not ready to back down
Im still mad as hell and 
I dont have time to go 
round and round and round

Its too late to make it right
I Probly wouldnt if I could
Cuz Im mad as hell
Cant bring myself 
to do what it is you think I should

I know you said
Cant you just get over it
It turned my whole world around
And I kinda like it

I made my bed and I sleep like a baby
I got no regrets and I dont mind sayin
Its a sad sad story when a mother will teach her 
Daughter that she ought to hate a perfect stranger
And how in the world can the words that Ive said
Send somebody so over the edge
That theyd write me a letter
Saying that Id better
Shut up and sing
Or my life would be over

Im not ready to make nice
Im not ready to back down
Im still mad as hell and 
I dont have time to go round and round and round
Its too late to make it right
I Probly wouldnt if I could
Cuz Im mad as hell
Cant bring myself 
to do what it is you think I should
(repeat)

What it is I you think I should

Forgive, 
sounds good
Forget, 
Im not sure I could
They say time 
heals everything
But Im still waiting


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## tongue~n~cheek (20 July 2010)

OK, I am totally PMS'g but OMG
I am in utter tears, thank you for signing the petition, it is over 600 now, and I cannot thank you brits enough!
tears of joy, that maybe we get enough, for the originator to take this to the Oklahoma representatives and first stop the prison rodeo, then onto the cowboy sporting events.

THANK YOU!
THANK YOU!
THANK YOU!
THANK YOU!
THANK YOU!
THANK YOU!

if we get our goal of 5000 I will out myself!


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## tongue~n~cheek (20 July 2010)

fburton said:



			Thank you for taking the time to respond at such length. I found your reply helpful and thought-provoking. And I have to say, TiC, I really admire your patience and tenacity in this thread.

thank you, I have about run out of steam.

Interesting example. Personally, I would label this a simple evasion, assuming the horse moved because he uncomfortable and not just because he felt like moving at that moment. But whichever the reason, for me it is a matter of learning not dominance. It is up to the person to teach the horse to stand still in that situation and to put up with a small amount of loss of freedom of movement (and possibly discomfort too if he is hypersensitive). For me it is not a "personal" issue related to our relationship or how he views me as part of some supposed hierarchy or whatever.

Potayto, potahto.  yes it is an evasion, and yes they have to learn to accept a loss of freedom.  i think this is just a matter of a different way to look at the same thing, and get the same results, where the only difference is our words

To be frank, I find the notion of "winning" or "losing" against a horse rather unhelpful. It can get in the way of solving problems in the most direct and effective way. I have seen where an obsession with "winning" -- especially at all costs -- can lead, and it ain't pretty. It encourages escalation of conflict, because the person feels that losing face will mean the horse views the person as a subordinate and "loses respect" for him/her. What can, and often does, happen when conflict is escalated and the horse doesn't immediately comply is that, rather than fixing the problem behaviour, other unwanted behaviours are created.

the parelli program does not promote winning at all cost, current circumstances withstanding.  they teach to play the games and win, but not it a way that the horse feels like a loser either.   I can say again, semantics.  if you ask your horse to do something and he doesn't what do you do? you keep asking till you get the desired response. if you really examine it, it really is just about semantics.  it is the mind set that really is important. and we dont practice win at all cost, so the mind frame is good

That's great, and I reckon your success with the horse was down to the calm, patient and consistent way your handled her, addressing the problem i.e. bridling directly, rather than trying to impress on her that you were alpha by e.g. chasing her in a round-pen or pushing her around. (If you _did_ do the latter, I would say your success was in spite of it not because of it.) The fact that you ascribed her stubbornness to dominance didn't stop you having a good outcome. However, I would suggest that for some people it might. There are examples to be found all over where people were misled by their assumption of dominance into wholly inappropriate responses.

I think the theory of "alpha" is greatly misunderstood, in my experience. now I am not saying YOU misunderstand, just speaking in generalities, that it seems to be linked to a myth of dominating and being mean.  it isn't. no i did not round pen this horse to death.  there was some roundpenning but probably not in the way you are thinking.  IF this horse left me (wild horse here ok) and decided on it's own to go running around, i let her, then asked her to do a bit more than she wanted. then gave her the opportunity to come back.  if accepted, great come on in, if not, well then keep going.  I left it at, your idea (not with me) or my idea (with me) but not in between.  and with me, could be 10 feet away.  i was looking for her to be with me mentally, not somewhere else. i do not doubt that people have problems when in the mindframe of dominating the horse.  but parelli doesn't teach domination, I have not spent my time learning from people that come from that mind frame, so I really connot speak about that theory.  we look at alpha, as taught by parelli, that dominance games are for establishing a LEADER, not a dominator. who leads, who follows. and if we do it right, we will go together.

Actually, I relish working with stallions - both the gentle, sensitive ones and the more "extreme" (rowdy or aggressive) ones. That's partly because I love the "edge" that it gives them in terms of focus of attention, but also because I find the _process_ of de-escalating aggression and forging a relationship of mutual trust and liking highly rewarding. Always my aim is to eliminate dominance from the equation - to make the horse understand that I am _not_ a threat or competitor or rival. I don't achieve that by playing dominance games! If you start pushing a stallion around willy-nilly you shouldn't be surprised when he objects, sometimes dangerously. Respect is gained with consistent, fair handling, being as firm as necessary, of course, but not with arbitrary punishment or bullying tactics. This applies to all horses - it's just that stallions are less likely to resign themselves to being bullied and more likely to react strongly. Unfortunately, the belief that one has to be alpha over the horse leads some people to up the ante and with stallions that can have catastrophic consequences.

you have a special gift, stallions are not for everyone.  I recognize that and so does parelli.  the prgram suggests you not start with a stallion, and if you have one, you should get proffesional guidence.  I think it is sound advice in any method.  i for one, not comfortable with them.  i stop working with them when the hormones come in.  but it is a preference. i dont even like handling my friends 29" mini stud colt now that his hormones are in.  not out of fear, out of a distaste for stallion behavior.  I can handle them fine, i just prefer not to, and prefer one that already has manners. i feel it is best left for people better than myself, with bigger balls than I

No I thought you answered the question superbly. Clearly, though, we have different ideas about dominance. I don't show stallions I am afraid, but that is because I genuinely don't feel much fear around horses on the ground, not because I worry about them thinking they are dominant. For me it really is a non-issue. 

thank you. and yes we do have very different views about dominance.  like i said, you have a gift that many just dont posses. parelli teaches people not to take that chance, unless you are already familiar with handling them

I realize that dominance is pretty much at the heart of most forms of NH, but are you aware that there are alternative viewpoints on this matter?

I guess that really is dependent on what "dominance" means to the person, but I havn't checked out every NH method, so I cant speak to the accuracy of that.

Click to expand...


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## tongue~n~cheek (20 July 2010)

fburton said:



			For shame! You don't deserve that at all. They should be thanking you for being such a gracious ambassador, because your posts here are doing far more to let people see the good aspects of PNH than the current, official spin.
		
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thank you, I have to admit, what i did was done with great passion, not great intelligence.  knee jerk reaction that blew up in my face, like birthday cake.  looks all nice and sweet with the frostins and the flowers, but when packed with TNT 2" from your face, has a whole 'nuther flavor that is not so tasty!

but the "punishment' did not fit the "crime"


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## tongue~n~cheek (20 July 2010)

Tinypony said:



			Can I suggest that all the talk of games and playing is a bit misleading?  A PNH instructor will take a horse that is causing a student some grief and say "let me have a play with him", then go on to do some things that are certainly not play from the horse's point of view.  To quote a wise old guy who was with Pat in the early days before he became Mr Parelli, "This isn't about playing games, this is darn serious".
		
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I understand what you are saying.  PNH is like anything other method out there. it just isnt perfect. but i said in another answer, pat really is good about using words to help with a mind set.  to stay in the mind set of "playing" helps to keep things like "dominance" to a minimum.  does it work for everyone.  no?  is it perfect? no 

I think you and I could sit and talk for hours and explore alot of things together.  you are quite knowlegable, and I would love to probe....I mean....pic your brain.  if you ever find yourself state side.....look me up, we'll do tea.  well you can do tea, ptewy, I will do dr.pepper!


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## tongue~n~cheek (20 July 2010)

Jennyharvey said:



			T n C, its great that you are answering these questions for people.  I really think its helping in peoples understanding of parelli and NH.  

About the wild horse race and rodeos, ive been against them for a long time.  But not only those.  Steer wrestling, roping and bronc riding is all such barbaric cruelty.  
I dont know if many people here has seen the recent flicka film.  It had a few scenes with a wild horse race, and i think 2 horses actually died during filming.  I always like Tim mgraw's music(who was in the film), but he never spoke out about this so know im not much of a fan.  

Its strange though to think that for a country that has produced so many amazing horsemen and woman, that this sort of thing is still so popular.  Plus, a lot of great horse trainers started out as bronc riders or bull riders before becoming trainers.  Strange.
At least they have one advantage, of being unafraid of backing a bucking youngster.
		
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yes, with freedom comes great responsibility, as people are largely free to do as they please.  until someone sees that it does harm and stops others from thier right to freedom.  then we can step in.  but when lobbyist and special intrest groups with fat wads of money, can pull strings, it can make things an uphill battle.  for us here, the mustang is in great turmoil.  the cattle industry largly dictates this as they line the pockets of polititians, just like the oil companies to get what they want.  the mustang irradicated.  luckily, the only thing i like about our current president, is that his daughter is a horse lover and mustang lover and we all would like to act while we have at least one  president who can help. bush being a texas cattle/oil man did no help. it may prove to be the only thing he does that I like.....oooops, i shut up now!

again thanks for signing.


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## tongue~n~cheek (20 July 2010)

baymareb said:



			I agree.  It saddens and frustrates me.  Here in California, there is a certain amount of outrage over so-called "Mexican rodeo" in which an event called "tripping" is practiced.  It is indeed horrible, involving a horse let loose in an arena and then a rider (or maybe a  pair of riders) rope the legs of the horse in order to trip it.  

Horses are routinely cut, bruised, lamed and suffer broken bones in these events and the outrage is certainly justified.  Especially because defenders use the excuse that it is a cultural and traditional thing (much like the defenders of bullfighting).

And yet rodeo is defended with the same excuse.  Tradition alone is no reason to keep a practice if time and experience shows the practice to be cruel or detrimental or unfair or any other negative.  I don't care if a bunch of cowboys in the 18th century worked this way - this is the 21st century and I would hope we've evolved!

Sorry for the rant.  Stuff like this p***s me off.
		
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we do have many horrible animal problems. the first petition at least got the prison rodeo cancelled this year, but it is more put on hold, and they gave the reason of funding. NOW there are F@#$%^ fundraisers to try to raise money to put it back on, because of revenue loss to local business.  please?!  a two day anual event, saves the town from bankruptcy.  helooooo we are not stupid!

ranting too! sorry


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## tongue~n~cheek (20 July 2010)

penhwnllys_stardust said:



			i love what Monty Roberts does with his horses is that the same as parelli? 

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yes and no. MR has a few techniques, Parelli has many techniques.  but the few that MR has are similar to parelli techniques.  but philosphy is a bit different.  MR is simple in design, Parelli more complex.


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## tongue~n~cheek (20 July 2010)

Tinypony said:



			Thanks for all this discussion TIC.
RE the clip, it's just not needed.  Other trainers and their students manage to get beautiful subtle communication without ever having to even risk metal clunking on their horse's face.  I think the problem is that Parelli is so entrenched in the use of their phases.  I'm taught now to ask softly with the initial cue (like phase 1), but then support it with different "ask" if the horse doesn't understand.  As a result I have found that I can do way, way less to achieve much more with my horse, and without putting them under so much pressure.  I don't increase my initial cue to get a horse to respond.  (No touch the hair, touch the skin, touch the muscle, touch the bone...).
Probably the reason others manage so well with ropes that link directly to their halters is because they never feel the need to swing their rope about in the Parelli way.  
I do know how much the clips hit the face, and of course it isn't with every swing, but even once is unacceptable to me.  Sometimes those halters fit so badly that the clips make contact with the face just because the horse gets some energy going.  Not fair.
		
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I get what you are saying. truly i do.  but i promised I would explain parelli.  and sometimes that means setting my own ideas aside.  i may state them, but do state them seperately.  I honestly heard what you said, and it is on my to do list for things to ponder and investigate.  and parelli does not have to be done with a parelli rope. one can choose to do it with a rope without a clip.


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## tongue~n~cheek (20 July 2010)

baymareb said:



			That is probably the closest thing to a clear explanation of the LP video I have seen.  It seemed to me that she was trying to gain the horse's attention but it did and still does seem a ridiculous way to do so.  

My horse gets distracted.  She's young, she's curious and she sees shiny things and butterflies all the time.  Instead of flapping a rope at her for an interminable amount of time, I put her to work.  I can't see how the method in the video - no matter how expertly applied - would work better than giving the horse something to do.  I guess I just don't see the point.

Nor do I see the point of the situation with Catwalk.  Whether or not either one of those events was abuse, I'll leave to those who witnessed them in their entirety, but I fail to see the benefit of working with Catwalk the way he was worked with.  Perhaps he is being bridled now - as I understand, he was being bridled before, Whitaker had only had him 8 weeks and I think it's likely that less drastic measures would have solved the issue.  We've had dozens of people tell how they solved similar issues without all the drama.

So for those who keep saying, "you just don't understand" - no, I guess I don't.  But I really don't want to either because I can't imagine going through all that to accomplish things I've accomplished much easier my own way.
		
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at least you can say you asked, listened to the answer and made up your own mind.  we should be nothing if not honest with ourselves.

of course there is way more to parelli than that.  like the brown spot on the apple


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## tongue~n~cheek (20 July 2010)

Alyth said:



			Sorry T i C but this is another accolade!! Sincere congrats to you, and most of the other posters to enable this fantastic discussion to take place.  I think this is a first!!!  Everyone listening and contributing with very little anxt!!  I have been studying the original Parelli programme for about 12 years now. What impressed me when I first audited a clinic was how everything I learned as a child (Pony Club to A certificate pass) was given a logical sequence and a reason for doing it.  "It's so old it's new again".  However I have been backing away for about 4 years - since the "Linda levels" came out with THAT video on them!!!  I have seen Pat live 2ce.  The first time I was impressed, even though there were a couple of things I questioned!!  The second time I was more impressed by his students.  I felt he was a bit "over the top" - and that was about 5 or 6 years ago now.  The one thing that really put me off was being told to accept what is said, not to question, just to "do it"!!!  Me - I question everything!!!  

Gotta say - FADJUR WAS GORGEOUS!!!  One of my pin ups!!

Alyth
		
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taking a bow here. more like the one the asains do, hands together, not the showboat kind.  thank you. but i did nothing more than say "what if" and knee jerk a thread.  I couldnt' have done it without people doing it with me. so everyone should take a bow, for sure, lets all curtsie like shirly temple.


I couldnt' agree with you more. although I like the linda levels.  i sort out anything i don't agree with and move on.  lots of golden nuggets in there for me. and people have different learning styles too.  but yes, downhill slide in my book for sure.  dont know how much more the structure can hold.  time wil tell for sure.  gotta wait and see


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## tongue~n~cheek (20 July 2010)

Page 24,woo hoo
off to bed just as you are rising
see you on the flip side.


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## tongue~n~cheek (21 July 2010)

baymareb said:



			That is probably the closest thing to a clear explanation of the LP video I have seen.  It seemed to me that she was trying to gain the horse's attention but it did and still does seem a ridiculous way to do so.  

My horse gets distracted.  She's young, she's curious and she sees shiny things and butterflies all the time.  Instead of flapping a rope at her for an interminable amount of time, I put her to work.  I can't see how the method in the video - no matter how expertly applied - would work better than giving the horse something to do.  I guess I just don't see the point.

Nor do I see the point of the situation with Catwalk.  Whether or not either one of those events was abuse, I'll leave to those who witnessed them in their entirety, but I fail to see the benefit of working with Catwalk the way he was worked with.  Perhaps he is being bridled now - as I understand, he was being bridled before, Whitaker had only had him 8 weeks and I think it's likely that less drastic measures would have solved the issue.  We've had dozens of people tell how they solved similar issues without all the drama.

So for those who keep saying, "you just don't understand" - no, I guess I don't.  But I really don't want to either because I can't imagine going through all that to accomplish things I've accomplished much easier my own way.
		
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Thank you.  I don't know who all would agree with me on my explaination on it, but none the less that is how I see it.

Like I said before, not here to convert.  If you see that it wont work for you, or you dont have a need.  Then who is anyone to tell you that you need it?  Hopefully this thread shows that we can alteast agree to disagree, and learn to live and let live.


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## tongue~n~cheek (21 July 2010)

better half said:



			There are excellent trainers here in the U.K. 

Watch how it's done here 

http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=305146795396&ref=mf

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I agree with you, I would love to have grown up in the UK where horses are everywhere, and the culture is rich with good horse people.


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## tongue~n~cheek (21 July 2010)

touchstone said:



			Thankyou for your posts TIC,  I'm following with interest!

Personally I feel that there is abuse  or at least the potential for abuse, in any 'method', even mis-using body language can be confusing for a horse, and how often do we see the top riders doing the showjumping phase in a 3 day event  in a hackamore because the horse has a sore or damaged mouth?  I was (am) unhappy at the handling poor Catwalk had to endure, and after watching vids of how Klaus Ferdinand Hempfling handles truly aggressive stallions I can see how different the parelli demonstration was from what communication with horses CAN be.  

I think all we can do is to follow our own intuition and common sense and take the 'good' bits that resonate with us and leave the rest, providing we are honestly doing our best for our horses, always questioning and not blindly following.  

We are all constantly learning and the day we stop caring enough to question the why's and wherefore's of something is the day we shouldn't be doing it.  Hopefully we can all learn lessons from this for the sake of our horses.
		
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Thank you, i find it fascinating as well.  I could not have said the above better my self, bravo!


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## tongue~n~cheek (21 July 2010)

amandap said:



			Just had to pop in here and express my admiration for tongue in cheek for answering questions willingly and with an honest and open approach. A skill and attitude to aspire to.
		
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Thank you so much, I hope people learn from it, like I have.


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## tongue~n~cheek (21 July 2010)

Tinypony said:



			There are people with "carrot sticks" on my clinic, in all sorts of colours.  To be honest, if someone came up to them and asked what horsenality their horse is they would probably fall over laughing.  So just be careful that you're approaching a Parelli student if you do that.   
	
	
		
		
	


	




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That is actually kinda my point TP.  Before you assume some one is/isnt Parelli, and thus think you are judging Parelli by thier example.  it would be better to confirm it, then evaluate.

And a good way to find that out is to ask them what horsenality or what level they are studying.  this will also provide you with a sense of how far into the program, before you judge it all on someone who may have only been doing it a couple of days.

this does not mean you have to start doing parelli, but at least you could get along, and who knows, maybe make some new friends like I have here.  we hardly ever have boogars hanging out our nose, just carrot sticks out our bum!


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## tongue~n~cheek (21 July 2010)

vandypip said:



			Why do parelli disciples consider others anti???? do they not recognise challenge over such concrete beliefs??? why all this new language that nobody else uses, ie; horseenality??? is it in the oxford dictionary??? I think not. Where is the common sense???
		
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You will have to forgive me, I am having some difficulty with your language. I understand the first question but not quite the second.

We consider people NORMAL if they dont do parelli, but ANTI if they also participate in bashing a parelli student about the head for doing parelli.

 would be like you calling us yanks, and us calling you brits.

parelli uses words that make it easy to remember the game by associatin with the word.  no, it isn't in the dictionary, but niether was computer until someone invented it


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## tongue~n~cheek (21 July 2010)

vandypip said:



			Fair comment bay beasty. BUT if we don't share the same sentiments we are all considered anti!! which is utter C**P. Do parrelians el al think that the average person interested in equine welfare are failing unless they engage in baby talk???
		
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Well i just explained it in short, but no, most do not consider people with differing approaches as ANTI or HATERS.  And to be honest, who knows who started the "anti' name.  It may well have not been parelli people.  ANTI means you are against something, which is more than just not doing it. 

Do you feel like I have talked to anyone here with disrespect?
if so all I can say is that i appologise if I have.

but since this thread is about, if nothing else, respecting each other, do you think it makes me feel good, when I have shown all of you nothing but the utmost respect, to call my method "baby talk".  I know this was said days ago, and I am a bit behind, the rest of the thread.

but OUCH, that hurt!


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## tongue~n~cheek (21 July 2010)

vandypip said:



			I'm an athiest. There is no god. And that includes Parelli.
		
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Amazing how something out of context has a different flavor, previously I responded with "funny', but now in the context of the previous comment, 
.
.
.
.
says you!

tag, your it!


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## tongue~n~cheek (21 July 2010)

Piedpiper said:



			Hi TnC. I would just like to say that although I'm 'only' the mum of a horsey daughter, I've followed this thread with interest. I think this has been extremely brave of you to be this open, and to give us all the chance to understand things from your side of the fence. Please keep up the what is undoubtedly good work, and not let anyone put you off.
Before anyone jumps on me, by good work I mean this thread....I'm not in a position to comment on the rights or wrongs of parelli.
		
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Thank you.  I have a question for YOU (everyone). One of the things we PARELLIANS often say (not my self) to others is, "you just dont understand" and that statement alone can set ones emotions aflame.  

YET, now that this thing has evolved, I keep hearing, both here and in PM, thank you for helping me understand (not agree or convert)

while I agree, that it is obvious that it hasn't been explained, with out attitude of superiorness, in a way that anyone could understand, and that likely if you can't explain it well, it is not the other persons fault that they don't understand, it is yours for not explaining it well enough.

but is it a fair assesment, that maybe, just maybe, it helps if you understand?

this is a question for you to answer to yourself.  My point is actually to any Parelli person listening, and hopefully recognise, the next time that statement is about to roll of thier tongue, that first they ask themselves.....
"did I explain myself well enough for someone to understand me"

and

to know that just because they dont agree, doesn't mean they dont understand.


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## tongue~n~cheek (21 July 2010)

shysmum said:



			TiC, I think it's good that you train your horses your way, and how you want them. That's what I'm doing with my youngster (hopefully), but using other methods. There can be no right or wrong way, if it's done with total love and kindness, time and patience. And your own horse ends up how YOU want it to be. The bottom line is that if I ever did sell Shy (which I won't), the new owner would have to assess his schooling and see if it fits in with theirs ? 

 Tbh, from what I've read on this post, I think you may know a lot more than you - know - who.  I hope that isn't an insult btw. sm x
		
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thank you, and who cares if he's insulted!

I know I dont know more about parelli natural horsemanship than he, as it is HIS way, but I bet I know more about my way than HE does


HA HA HA HA HA HA


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## tongue~n~cheek (21 July 2010)

baymareb said:



			You, tongue~n~cheek, are a rare jewel.  Your patience, good humor and tact are just amazing and I really think Pat and Linda should be searching you out and hiring you at top dollar to be their goodwill ambassador.

Hat's off.  I know I for one would probably have cyber-garotted someone by now!  

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One would think, huh?

One onympic hopefull horse 200,000 pounds
One horse master in a hat $1,000,000

One heck of a spin doctor.......Priceless


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## tongue~n~cheek (21 July 2010)

drover said:



			Thanks for your reply tongue in cheek.

Yes you are correct I expressed and interest in joining Parelli back in '01 as I did believe they had a good honest agenda of trying to improve levels of horsemanship helping horses and owners, I was told I needed to have been assessed to level 3.

So I got myself a level 3 pack and submitted this assessment to parelli in the USA which was passed.

I made the decided not to join them as there were financial commitments, restrictions, loyalty issues and other general politics that really put me off.

To sum it up I was told I had to adjust my attitude.

The quality of these new instructors is a huge worry, it does not take much bad press to give people an air of doubt for most when it comes to NH (parelli in particular).

I know the original program contained masses of information but now its spread out and watered down so students have to buy more packs and dvds to get anywhere close to as much info -levels, patterns success series,liberty & horse behavior, all this info was all contained in just the levels pack.

Its clear that now the only agenda parelli have now is making mega amounts of money by getting their brand spread as widely as possible by these lower quality instructors who can afford approx £10000 for a 4 week course followed by a 1 week classroom instructor course. (I don't mean any offence to people who have done this as they were led to believe having a parelli logo by their name actually has some significance in the equine world when in reality it counts for nothing).

I have learned and will continue to do so from talented classical and modern dressage teachers, show jumping teachers, vaquero horsemen and many more and never been sold over priced dvds or had second rate tuition.

Now parelli is nothing more than a money making machine misleading many individuals.

Rant over!! Thanks TnC for your interesting feedback on all the questions raised

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WOW, can you imagine then what they would say to ME about MY attitude.
Good thing I dont want it, they would never let me in.  I am witty, sarcastic, real, and question EVERY thing.  which I feel keeps you honest.  for one to proceed, unquestioned, opens the door for dishonesty, greed, and abuse of ones loyalty.

Ya! I wouldn't need to change my attitude, I would need a labotomy!

ROFLMAO!


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## tongue~n~cheek (21 July 2010)

Tinypony said:



			When you think of the greats who left Parelli, don't forget Philip Nye, the man who trained Magic.  (Whatever may be said now, Philip trained Magic, not Pat, and there is video evidence to prove that).
I think a lot of them left because they needed the freedom to teach in the way they wanted.  The original Parelli instructors didn't work to such a strict set of rules, and completed the tasks their way, which they passed on to their students.  These great horsemen and women couldn't fit into the more rigid guidelines set on how the programme was delivered.  (Parelli needed to know their programme was being delivered the same way by all, and it wasn't you see).
Others left because of the financial strain of being an instructor, and the rather demanding schedules of training camps and meetings. But I guess most left for a combination of those reasons.
		
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Ohhh I am going to seriously, strap you down, and torture you for info.  You CLEARLY know more than you let on to know.  I am a curious person,  I want to know everything about everything.

while i can't recall ever hearing Pat take credit for training Magic, I certainly never heard him say he didn't.  I think it is just an asumption that he did.  and while I am not one to just believe anything that anyone says (remember I question everything) some how, I know we are very likeminded, you and I.

tea and dr pepper.  some day......some day!


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## tongue~n~cheek (21 July 2010)

Hollycat said:



			This is one of my favourite threads at the moment as I am learning a lot and we all seem to be pretty friendly (long may it last) 

I felt very sad about some of TnC's comments. From her posts she is actually someone that if I was going to learn any Parelli from an instructor, she would be the type of instructor I would want   it just saddens me so much that she has had bad experiences in the past posting online and that she could no longer teach dressage if she was a Parelli instructor.  I have seen my Parelli friends do some really cool in hand work with their horses which to be honest I would love to learn - but not 100% Parelli style - I would want the instructor to adapt it to a more of a classical dressage slant.  However, many of my friends horses ridden work is - well - to be blunt, awful.  Any of my youngsters under saddle for a few weeks would be more responsive and light on the aids and have a greater understanding of them than many of these horses under saddle for years  

So this is another question for T n C. Do you think Parelli is (a) more greared to inhand work and (b) trail riding in terms of the ridden work?  Most of the Parelli horses I have seen ridden are plain unbalanced in a school. They cannot really canter one full 20m circle without breaking into trot etc. I understand not everyone wants to do dressage and most Parelli horses are ridden in a rope halter, but balance is balance. I also know perhaps the horses I have seen are unrepresentative of Parelli horses as a whole so it may be I have just been very unlucky.

I also want to say that I loved the video of the little girl and her pony   That really embodies for me all that horsemanship should be.  A trusting relationship with both parties (horse and rider) having fun
		
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Thank you you guys are sooo sweet.  honestly, with this thread, I have learned that I have not lost anything, by not becoming a parelli profesional.  at the end of the day, I still have myself!  if I ever do so choose to pursue it, I know the sacrifice I will have to make, and will gladly tow the line.  when I make a promise, I keep it.  but somehow I don't think they would want me!  thier loss, not mine.

now, as for your question.  yes of course thier claim to fame is the ground work, especially liberty.  BUT what you are looking at when you see the dreadfull ridden work, is someone working on something different than what most are riding for.  they are learning to perfect emotional balance.  making the horse responsible for share of the work, and not being micro managed into listening and complying.  the horse and rider are working toward bridleless riding.  many dont want to go as far as actually taking the bridle off(not a requirement to take it off btw) but they are working toward riding withut using it.  learning to use thier seat and body instead of thier hands and reins.  once they can do that, they are now able to ride with reins and not abuse a horse in the mouth with bad hands, and also not nagging with the legs. I was riding this way back when doing dressage, pre parelli, and got quite good at it.  I could canter 20m squares at canter using my seat.  while it wasnt as balanced as when I had conection with the bit, i did perfect my seat, and was able to ride even better when I picked up the reins.

so when you watch your friends ride, as atrocious as it may seem, try looking at it for what they are trying to achieve, emotional responsibility from the horse and responding to body cues, and evaluate if they are getting what they are seeking.  when you look at it from someone elses point of view, you can begin to see the beauty in it for THEM.  ask them what level they are doing, and how they feel they stack up to the level they are learning, and you will likely not only blow thier mind, you might learn that they are not happy yet with thier level of performance, but are learning more everyday.

BTW, thank you for saying that you would like an instructor like me.  tears in my eyes! truely.  now i am going to tell my students that!  all 4 of them!


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## tongue~n~cheek (21 July 2010)

pippinpie said:



			I think it is perfectly natural (no pun intended) for people to want to go their separate ways, and who can blame any one, I too would want to one day have my own 'empire' and not be confined to only towing the rope. I don't know anything about any of the splits as I have not been a member for that long, but maybe it was the last straw that breaks the camels back, and a divide begins, who does not want to be their own master, were what happen is your choice, spreading your own wings not riding on the back of others.
I think it's whats called freedom.
		
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dang woman, brilliantly said!

I feel like a mustang trying to be broken......it just can't be done.  too free of a spirit


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## tongue~n~cheek (21 July 2010)

Tinypony said:



			I agree pippinpie, I think they wanted freedom.  Possibly not in order to have their own "empire", but just to be able to do things the way they wanted.
Hollycat, I hope TIC doesn't mind me chipping in re your post.  As an ex Parelli student, this is how I see it anyway.  In Parelli you work up your levels, when I was in it there were only 3 levels assessed, Level 1 was Partnership, Level 2 was Harmony and Level 3 was Finesse.  The majority of students didn't ever complete Level 2 (which may be one reason why they have re-jigged the levels, to encourage people more).  That wasn't because they weren't capable of completing Level 2, maybe they got what they wanted out of the system, or found a level that they were happy at.  In fact, the highest percentage of students vanished after they passed Level 1.
Anyhow, the problem with this was that the horses weren't really asked for true collection until they reached the Finesse stage.  You didn't put the bridle back on until Level 2, and then only when you had some "soft feel" when riding in your halter.  Just as in conventional stuff, a lot of people confused "soft feel" with the shape of the head and neck, and didn't connect it with lifted withers, working from behind and all that stuff.  And in any case, when you were riding using just a carrot stick for guidance, or "freestyle" with casual reins, you weren't concentrating on weight and balance, and your horse ended up dumped on the forehand. (I'm talking in past tense, but from what I have observed this is all still the case).  
OK, so what happens if someone finds themselves perfectly happy somewhere into Level 2, proud to be riding in the halter, and to be able to ride with no bridle, and loving the free feeling they get from "freestyle"?  And as a result, they decide they'll stick with that and just be a happy Parelli person hacking about and playing with their horse...  Well, if they aren't aware of what is going on with their horse anatomically, and so do nothing to correct it, they end up with an unbalanced horse that works mostly on the forehand and, well you know how that looks.  Does that sound familiar?
This is just how the programme works.  The idea is to progress through the programme as quickly as possible, refining how you and your horse work as you go.  (I believe Level 1 should take no more than 2 months?  Most hang around there much longer than that).  This is not the only way an "nh" style of trainer would work.  I know of others that concentrate on balance and true soft feel from day 1.  With or without a bit incidentally, because, contrary to what many believe, it is possible to have true collection without a bit.  It just takes a bit of work, but then most stuff with horses takes a bit of work, doesn't it?   
	
	
		
		
	


	




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Yah THAT, that's what I said, right?? he he

but TP hasn't been answering all these questions either.

You are soooo gonna get a picking over!


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## tongue~n~cheek (21 July 2010)

jinglejoys said:



			Ditto.
 A lot of Parrelli people are worried about comming on the H&H forum because of the treatment they get.I tend to just post the odd sentance but I don't have the words, energy,or confidence to go further.
   I don't know or care who you are I'm just pleased you can write better than I can
		
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Thank you, again.  speaking is not for every one.  i can assure you after this, I feel for anyone who has thier everyword hovered over.  it is not all it is cracked up to be. but in a sense, I am able to be free here.  not have to worry about the purists feelings of me not havning enough faith in pat and linda. ptewy.  i had faith, and got the **** kicked out of me for it.  you go on and have your faith (talking to them BTW not you) one day you might have so much faith, you make a mistake and realize you are a fool for doing so, just like I did!

here I found real friends, that dont agree with what I do but see the beauty in it through my eyes.  that is a greater compliment than blind admiration.

whoa fingers, slow down, easy boys, pat pat pat!

back on track, hopefully you can see wiht this thread, that you have friends you can talk to who may not agree with parelli, but at least will be nice to you if you talk about it.


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## tongue~n~cheek (21 July 2010)

Battyoldbint said:



			This has to be one of the most innteresting posts ive read on here,well done TIC and everyone who has contributed
		
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Thank you, i think so too!  that of course a joke, as I am new here and this is basically the only thread I have read.  well the first 30 or so pages of the parelli bashing thread.

for you guys it is interesting, for me and a few others, it has been life changing!


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## Bay_Beasty (21 July 2010)

tongue~n~cheek said:



			i am witty, sarcastic, real, and question every thing.  Which i feel keeps you honest.
		
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## tongue~n~cheek (21 July 2010)

likkibunni said:



			Wow, thats taken the whole night for me to read so I think ill throw my two cents worth in. First time i ever saw Parelli was at a demo in college and I have to say it brought tears to my eyes, i thought it was beautiful. Needless to say i instantly wanted to rush out and buy all the stuff and become a Parelli follower. Thank god for being a student as i couldnt afford all the kit.

I later realised that it wasnt for me and though I wouldnt say i follow any particular method i just do what works for me though i do rate Monty Roberts Kelly Marks etc. I started watching some american horse woman (cant remember her name )on rural tv (which has now been cancelled  and I did learn some useful tips for my spooky loan horse which i have put into practice effectively, though i didnt agree with everything she did.

I prefer MR as i like the idea of the horse coming to you as a nice place to be as opposed to Parelli which appears to be alot of getting the horse to go away from you. (Sorry im very parelli uneducated and correct me if this is wrong). I think there are elements of most horse training techniques which can be used in some positive way and I will always take time to sit and watch something new and different to see if there is anything that I can learn and use in my own way.

Thanks TiC for taking the time to respond to everyone. After all the followers you seem to be getting on here maybe you should start your own training method and flog a load of dvds  'I cant believe its not Parelli'

(You may not get that if in the states you dont get a certain brand of non butter margarine thats difficult to believe)

P.S I couldnt watch the whole video in your sig, i couldnt get past the cowboys lassoing that poor horse with the broken legs but i have signed the petition (twice by accident woops!)
		
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thank you.  no parelli is not for everyone.  and there are many great horseman/women around the planet.

yes the video is sickening, I have seen it dozens of times, and I cry and nearly puke everytime. I cannot even for one second imagine that poor horses pain of being forced to walk that far on two broken in half legs. then not even put out of its misery.  made to suffer with other scared horses shoving it around, beaten to try to make it stand back up. two sigs better than one i guess.


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## Bay_Beasty (21 July 2010)

tongue~n~cheek said:



			Thank you.  I have a question for YOU (everyone). One of the things we PARELLIANS often say (not my self) to others is, "you just dont understand" and that statement alone can set ones emotions aflame.  

YET, now that this thing has evolved, I keep hearing, both here and in PM, thank you for helping me understand (not agree or convert)

while I agree, that it is obvious that it hasn't been explained, with out attitude of superiorness, in a way that anyone could understand, and that likely if you can't explain it well, it is not the other persons fault that they don't understand, it is yours for not explaining it well enough.

but is it a fair assesment, that maybe, just maybe, it helps if you understand?

this is a question for you to answer to yourself.  My point is actually to any Parelli person listening, and hopefully recognise, the next time that statement is about to roll of thier tongue, that first they ask themselves.....
"did I explain myself well enough for someone to understand me"

and

to know that just because they dont agree, doesn't mean they dont understand.  

Click to expand...


I know you know the answer already, but as I have said before, if Pat or Linda had your gift with the gab, was we say over here, your ease with words and your stedfast commitment to your cause, there would of been no need for this thread. But personally, for me, I am glad they don't.


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## tongue~n~cheek (21 July 2010)

Tinypony said:



			Re what Pippinpie said about Freestyle...  We may be refering to different levels 2+3.  With the old levels only a handful of people ever made it to level 3 before they left (or became instuctors).  The new level 3 demands a lot less.
As for teaching a trained horse Freestyle, I do wonder what the point is sometimes.  I you've got a horse that works well now, why have it start to work heavy on the forehand at all?  Take what you've got and make sure you've got proper balance, then allowing your horse to work low will be a matter of changing the position of your hands.  But it still won't be heavy in the front.  That's a much more difficult thing to find than "freestyle".  
I'm sure this is why many people wonder why the Parelli horses are being allowed to stumble around areans unbalanced.  If you take a horse that has relied on the rider to hold it up for years, then you take all that away, they flounder.
		
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I agree, levels changes make a big difference.  things are certainly, for lack of a better term, dumbed down to make it easier.  while on the one hand, it makes those that worked so hard for their levels years ago, feel like these people are getting handed the levels on a silver plater, for those coming in, it is easier to understand, and in the end it is the same result by passing L4.  

I too started with the green packs, got screwed just as I was about to auditin with new levels, got that almost done, and got screwed again.  but now because of, not in spite of, I have nearly gotten to where I want to be, "officially" so woo hoo!  it does make it easier now to progress thru, and also way more focus on the relationship than before.

so I am well versed in ALL three levels systems, and a better horse person for it.


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## tongue~n~cheek (21 July 2010)

bay_beasty said:



			I know you know the answer already, but as I have said before, if Pat or Linda had your gift with the gab, was we say over here, your ease with words and your stedfast commitment to your cause, there would of been no need for this thread. But personally, for me, I am glad they don't.   

Click to expand...

I heart you!

mee tooo, we would have never met if pat and linda were adequate.  we shall have to pay thanks to poor catwalk, as our new friendship is at his expense. 

a moment of silence please


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## tongue~n~cheek (21 July 2010)

bay_beasty said:



   

Click to expand...

MUAH HA HA HA

he, someone else guessed who I am.  that makes two who figured it out!


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## tongue~n~cheek (21 July 2010)

Tannis said:



			Thanks for taking the time to explain.

I was a bit worried it was all about results at any cost and at hyperspeed.  Thanks for putting it in context and explaining the difference between the "show" and the "programme"
		
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glad I could shed some light on the matter. God knows no one else has talked about the difference between the show and the program. I think they should talk about it AT the "show"

still looking for the question about it taking so long!


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## tongue~n~cheek (21 July 2010)

bay_beasty said:



			Like this idea!! 


me too!


Why and how?? 

Click to expand...

My performance horse had residuals from the race track, and she would twist her jaw.  she also did it when stressed, like during feeding time, waiting for her turn to be fed.  I had her vetted several times, dental work up the wazoo, expensive farriers, saddle fitters, special saddle pads, bits and so on.

I couldn't keep her mouth shut, so I tied it shut with a flash.  it wasn't until i was somewhere in second level dressage, and truly understood my hands and seat, that her mouth quit doing it.....yet sadly, i couldnt untie her mouth due to FASHION in the dressage world.  it wasn't THAT tight, but still.  had I learned earllier that it was a reflection of MY inferior skills, i would have been able to use it to my advantage.  to know that if she did it, she was either stressed or my hands were bothering her.  a gaping mouth is a reflection of its rider.  either direct pain from hands, or not taking the time to see what it causing it, (stress,teeth, saddle and so forth)

when I started riding her again after starting parelli I just took the caveson off all together. let the world see my failures, keeps you honest.


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## tongue~n~cheek (21 July 2010)

Alyth said:



			IMO 4 phases is important - it's how you obtain lightness.  By starting lighter than necessary and gradually increasing pressure until you get the result you want and then instantly quitting.....
		
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YES! and like everyone else, you should do what works for and makes sense to you and your horse


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## begentle (21 July 2010)

Hi , thankyou for taking the time to answer these questions. Could I ask , can you point me in the direction of where I can find the scientific research that says that  animals with brains can be defined with Left brain. right brain , introvert and extrovert please ? I am struggling to find it and is it just horses that have brains that work in this way ? Humans ? .

Thanks


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## tongue~n~cheek (21 July 2010)

dressedkez said:



			I think it was both.........How many horses are really 'sorted out' using Pirelli? And is Pirelli a short-cut for those who have no horsemanship skills but want some sort of utopian answer for their horses? And how much money do 'professional' pirelli people make out of those poor people who can't cope with their horses, and hope that Pirelli is the panecea? And how many real horse people are still out there who can turn horses around - but can't possibly give them back to someone who does not have a clue? Tell me do the Pirelli experts ever have a faliure???
		
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well not sure what you mean by "sorted out"

cant speak on the utpian thing, but parelli is definately one way for many with no horsemanship skills to learn them, and many have gone on to be quite successfull.

most people do quite well on thier own, such as myself.  only one 2dy clinic in 10ys. and I am a level 4 student and played with as many as 150 horses using parelli with quite a bit of success.  so I don't consider myself poor at all

dont traditional trainers train horses and hand them back to thier clueless owners? I have no details of those facts in parelli as i am quite isolated where I live.  however I saw it all the time in the traditional world prior to moving to BFE!

failure? sure why not. no one is perfect.  seen many more traditional trainers fail, even more hodge podge NH trainers fail, than I have ever seen in parelli.  but those are just MY experiences, I don't know everyone.


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## tongue~n~cheek (21 July 2010)

begentle said:



			Hi , thankyou for taking the time to answer these questions. Could I ask , can you point me in the direction of where I can find the scientific research that says that  animals with brains can be defined with Left brain. right brain , introvert and extrovert please ? I am struggling to find it and is it just horses that have brains that work in this way ? Humans ? .

Thanks
		
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I hope this is an honest question and not sarcasm.  

there is alot of research on brain and behaviour.  however it is more a model of behavior than brain activity.  in parelli land, right brained is horses reacting out of fear, left brain is out of confidence.  extrovert is outgoing, introvert is quiet and reserved.  there are several models such as this regarding human behavior, which is what the parellis used as creative idea on how to make it fit for horses. 

is there scientific research on this? i have no clue.  

i do my own research.  if the eveidence leads me to believe it is true, that is good enough for me.  

the horsenality model has yet be proved wrong in my experiences and those of people i know and thier horses.


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## tongue~n~cheek (21 July 2010)

I did it, I am done! I have answered all the questions.  if i missed one, let me know.  but honestly, I am pooped!  my horses and family miss me.  i have a couple things that I have typed up, that cover a few things that I did not go into detail about that might explain some other parelli things.  however, i will try to post them tomorrow.  it is after midnight, again!

I have one thing left to say at this time:

I dont agree with what pat did with catwalk, truly I dont. and maybe it is because I dont understand, but whos fault is that?  No one has offered an honest explanation.  So how can I?

Having said that, compared to what is going on with our beloved animals over here, it is nothing.  NOTHING.  I honestly want to see this brutal wild horse race abuse stopped.  We have so many unfeeling uncaring people here as far as the horse is concerned.  I promise you, if it was a dog in that video, this country would be up in arms.  WHY is a dog more worthy of protection than a horse?  I would love nothing more, than for this petition for the mustangs to wipe the floor with the petition against the parellis.  It just makes no logical sense to me that people wont sign this thing, but will sign that thing, and say they it is because they wont tolerate abuse.

The originator of the petition, has honest intentions of carrying this thing all the way through to the bitter/sweet end.  They are full aware of the great responsibility of the signatures they hold in their hand, and was very sad that no one is signing.  VERY sad.  I saw today that it was finally noticed all the new signatures from you guys.  I so badly wanted to say..your welcome.  but they know not of this thread, or how much you all have helped to support it.  I make all of you this solemn promise.  If we get the 5000 needed signatures, I will reveal my identity to all of you, and let them know it was YOU who helped them fill those lines with names.  

It will come at a cost to me, but I dont care.  What ever price I pay, will be nothing to the torture these magnificent animals endure, for the sole purpose of entertainment.

Maybe if you copy the links from my signature and add it to yours until we get the numbers, that would help.  No requirement, just a suggestion for those that wish to help me.

I must say, I am no one special.  Just an aging woman, doing the best I can for the horses that come my way.

There are a great many better horse people than I, and I respect and admire everyone that loves horses and does right by them, regardless of the method used.  

I cannot thank you all enough for enriching my life they way you have, and for signing and forwarding the links for others to sign.

My word is good on me revealing my self with 5000 signatures.  as long as no one blows up my personal life (blog website with bad things) i will be fine.

the view from the top of the mountain is wonderous, I think I will sit for a while and enjoy that which you have helped me to achieve.

thank you!


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## tongue~n~cheek (21 July 2010)

oh, i will get to the PM's tomorow.  thank you
see you on the flip side!


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## Tinypony (21 July 2010)

Thanks TIC for all your time and effort.  A great thread.


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## actions-speak-louder (21 July 2010)

tongue~n~cheek said:



			First no I am not.  not affiliated in any way other than that of being a student.

We all would love to know that, BTW.  I suspect those close to them know the true reason.  but I think they are otherwise tight lipped about it.

I have no idea if they chose to leave, were asked to leave, or it was mutual.  I am sure each person has thier own reasons, when they do.  Also know Pat is serious about instructors only teaching the program and what they are licenced to teach.  for reasons I stated in an earlier post.  he is guaranteing me that if I want parelli help,and I pay for one of his instructors, that parelli help is all i will get, at the level that they are quaified to teach.  if anyone is doing otherwise, they can have thier cert yanked.  I know of one in particular who did.  but I also think that people are no different than chicks, some want to spread thier wings and fly on thier own wind.

Click to expand...

"Parelli Help" - what is needed is all round horse help from experienced all rounded men and women. Mr PP himself must have gained his knowledge from others to arrive at his method.  His stars also need this valuable experience and as previously posted we have what are called "CPD's" in the UK, and this Continued Professional Development is a crucial part of the learning process. For one to be so narrow minded and "say my way is the only way" is very controlling and dare I say again "cultish".  To yank a stars certificate after all their hard work and dedication, let alone expense, because they have the desire to learn and improve themselves is very harsh, and also very egocentric of Mr PP for not wanting ones students to better themselves.  One must acknowledge that and aspire to the fact that ones students will one day be better than their teacher.  It is the sign of a true teacher who aspires to this.  "Grasshopper"

There are other horseman / stars  out there who have learnt from their PP experience, they have fledged, not wanting their wings clipped or controlled by one system, and great horsemen they are too, now gaining and being appreciated for their own style and methods.  It appears that all those who show flair or don't toe the party line are outed, that's why the stars are tight lipped ... it's fear they are showing.  A student is there to watch and learn, to be taught and to expand, and from this a teacher will also learn.  


To dismiss a body of knowledge just because you already have horse sense makes no sense.   previously posted - by Irishlife I think.

Horse sense is common sense and is also individual, one should allow the stars to attend other clinics and expand their experiences. 

What a shame that Mr PP uses his silver tongue to control.


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## tongue~n~cheek (21 July 2010)

actions-speak-louder said:



			"Parelli Help" - what is needed is all round horse help from experienced all rounded men and women. Mr PP himself must have gained his knowledge from others to arrive at his method.  His stars also need this valuable experience and as previously posted we have what are called "CPD's" in the UK, and this Continued Professional Development is a crucial part of the learning process. For one to be so narrow minded and "say my way is the only way" is very controlling and dare I say again "cultish".  To yank a stars certificate after all their hard work and dedication, let alone expense, because they have the desire to learn and improve themselves is very harsh, and also very egocentric of Mr PP for not wanting ones students to better themselves.  One must acknowledge that and aspire to the fact that ones students will one day be better than their teacher.  It is the sign of a true teacher who aspires to this.  "Grasshopper"

There are other horseman / stars  out there who have learnt from their PP experience, they have fledged, not wanting their wings clipped or controlled by one system, and great horsemen they are too, now gaining and being appreciated for their own style and methods.  It appears that all those who show flair or don't toe the party line are outed, that's why the stars are tight lipped ... it's fear they are showing.  A student is there to watch and learn, to be taught and to expand, and from this a teacher will also learn.  


To dismiss a body of knowledge just because you already have horse sense makes no sense.   previously posted - by Irishlife I think.

Horse sense is common sense and is also individual, one should allow the stars to attend other clinics and expand their experiences. 

What a shame that Mr PP uses his silver tongue to control.
		
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Yes to all, as I said, I don't fit the mold, and never will, even if i lose the 50lbs i should

I do want to clarify, i dont think it was from "learning" from another, rather "teaching" another.  to me it makes no difference either way, but in efforts of "explaining" parelli, i dont want to add to what others have done in the past which is speak about something as "fact" when i truley dont know the facts, and have it repeated as "fact."

the fact is, I do not know the facts!

but agree with you none the less!


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## tongue~n~cheek (21 July 2010)

Tinypony said:



			Thanks TIC for all your time and effort.  A great thread.   
	
	
		
		
	


	




Click to expand...

As soon as I get a good rest, some time with my family and horses, it's ON.  I will meet you there, from the invite and we shall have great fun my friend!


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## JanetGeorge (21 July 2010)

tongue~n~cheek said:



			Having said that, compared to what is going on with our beloved animals over here, it is nothing.  NOTHING.  I honestly want to see this brutal wild horse race abuse stopped.  We have so many unfeeling uncaring people here as far as the horse is concerned.  I promise you, if it was a dog in that video, this country would be up in arms.  WHY is a dog more worthy of protection than a horse?  I would love nothing more, than for this petition for the mustangs to wipe the floor with the petition against the parellis.  It just makes no logical sense to me that people wont sign this thing, but will sign that thing, and say they it is because they wont tolerate abuse.
		
Click to expand...

I watched the video right through - and wish I hadn't.  I now feel sick and angry - and helpless!  I've signed the petition - and I'll spread the link - but sadly it's not enough!

The only way to end this horrendous abuse will be legislation - and that would require a massive campaign in the USA (as well as international pressure) to target the politicians- from Obama down!  And it also needs a campaign against the sponsors - particularly the big, international companies.  Much as I hate the loony AR organisations like PETA and IFAW, this is something they do well!  What are they doing about it??


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## actions-speak-louder (21 July 2010)

It would be nice TIC, if you were to continue with your free unconditional horse help on this forum, because despite everything you have a lot to give, but I feel you may have to keep your anonymity to achieve this. That maybe a big challenge for you. 

So cheers and get some sleep.

Or maybe do a phoenix.


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## Graureiter (21 July 2010)

A question for TIC. 

What is your opinion about the use of safety helmets and body protectors?

This was quoted on the COTH forum, concerning the use of safety equipment. I find it hard to believe.





*
"You are quite right - helmets are fabulous things and they save many lives. Tragically though, people who ARE wearing helmets also die or suffer serious head injuries in accidents with horses.

Our program is intended to address the safety problem at its root - which is behavioral - rather than address the symptoms of it. Our message is about developing the relationship with the horse, and the savvy level of the rider, so that unsafe behavior is addressed long before the rider gets on the horse - rather than allowing the unsafe situations to continue to occur and hope that the helmet, body protector, etc, will protect us from the consequences. 

The reason you do not see our people wearing helmets is because we try to teach people that rather than be brave because they are wearing a a helmet to protect them, they would be better off not riding until their horse is behaving safely. 

People have called us brave for not wearing helmets, but we say they are a lot braver than we are. We would not get on their horse until we had addressed the issues that cause it to behave in unsafe ways. 
We hope this helps, 

From the Faculty, Parelli Centers  *

Click to expand...


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## Tinypony (21 July 2010)

I think if you look at the previous page TIC has bowed out of this thread for a rest.  However... I organised a Parelli clinic many moons ago at a big equestrian centre.  A lady who was a "level 2 student" was riding her horse when her girth strap broke, her saddle came off and she landed on her back in the arena, her head narrowly missing the boards at the side.  At least she was wearing a hat, so whatever daft comments the Parelli office might make, some Parelli students understand that accidents can happen.
Mind you, there are a lot of people who aren't Parelli people riding without hats, it seems to be rather a dressagy thing to do as well.


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## Shysmum (21 July 2010)

Re the hat issue - You MUST be joking, right ?? 

A whole other argument, but when you think that a lot of UK horse owners would like to see hats become law here (please don't take offence non- hat users), this is another nail in the coffin for Parelli in the UK. 

Good god above, ANY horse that has a personality, and is NOT a robot, could spook, buck, or whatever else at any time. This is scary - it says to me " don't be stupid, our horses are so robotically perfect, hats are not needed". Arrogance and stupidity - leaving themselves very wide open for a lawsuit. 

Ha !!


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## Bay_Beasty (21 July 2010)

Well done T~I~C, been a very informative, interesting thread that I have enjoyed muchly. Hope that you will stay on as an H and H forum user. You have not been put off by difficult questions and have kept your self focussed. V admirable. Hope that you get some well deserved rest and enjoy your horses too, I suspect they will have been missing you.


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## tongue~n~cheek (22 July 2010)

Oh I am not done, not by a long shot!
Just need a break.

I have done my best to explain parelli with out my opinion.  everyone else has had the opportunity to say thier opinion so I want my turn too

I just need to compile my thoughts, without the promt of a question.

plus I have a few PM's to reply to, a few emails and such.

Thanks you guys for all your support and thought provoking discussion.

Boots an helmets required!


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## Mike007 (22 July 2010)

Oh B+++++ I shortcutted to the end of this thread and realise I now have to go back and read 20 odd pages, consolation prize , I think TIC talks sense.


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## tongue~n~cheek (22 July 2010)

Mike007 said:



			Oh B+++++ I shortcutted to the end of this thread and realise I now have to go back and read 20 odd pages, consolation prize , I think TIC talks sense.
		
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Don't you just hate that?

'eh, I got some sense, but if you ask my mother, not much!

I think you will not be disapointed.  Not in the sense of "oooh let me start parelli tomorrow", but in the sense of "oh, I see why people do NH or parelli, and while "I" don't need it, I'm glad you get enjoyment out of it, and wish you much success"

Sad thing that so few people are aware of this wonderous journey we all took together, to come to an mutual agreement to co-exist, and for some of us, become friends!


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## baymareb (22 July 2010)

T~i~C, I just want you to know that I'm copying your links and posting them to another forum I use as well as some other places.  I will get you as many signatures as I can.


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## tongue~n~cheek (22 July 2010)

Graureiter said:



			A question for TIC. 

What is your opinion about the use of safety helmets and body protectors?

This was quoted on the COTH forum, concerning the use of safety equipment. I find it hard to believe.
		
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Pat and Linda are "pro choice" as it were.  Linda has made a statement about it quite a while back, when that was a NEW letter.  it is quite old ya know.  Anyways, Pat and Linda are not our parents.  We should all use good judgement.  And while it would appear the responsible thing to have done, would be to say that of course it is safer to ride in a helmet, "ACCIDENTS" happen in the blink of an eye, and it is too late to put your helmet on, once your brain is an omlete, they didn't.  Only they can answer as to why.  But, they are pro choice for adults at least, and so am I.  I don't know thier offical position on minors at thier ranch. 

I do however, state to all of my students to get a helmet, I need my paycheck!

For me, I ride in one when hacking out, or on unpredictable horses, and I know it is incredibly stupid of me not to wear it all the time.  I NEVER wore one, pre parelli.  I should wear it all the time, and i know it.


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## tongue~n~cheek (22 July 2010)

baymareb said:



			T~i~C, I just want you to know that I'm copying your links and posting them to another forum I use as well as some other places.  I will get you as many signatures as I can.
		
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where is the smiley for

XOXOXOXOXO


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## tongue~n~cheek (22 July 2010)

JanetGeorge said:



			I watched the video right through - and wish I hadn't.  I now feel sick and angry - and helpless!  I've signed the petition - and I'll spread the link - but sadly it's not enough!

The only way to end this horrendous abuse will be legislation - and that would require a massive campaign in the USA (as well as international pressure) to target the politicians- from Obama down!  And it also needs a campaign against the sponsors - particularly the big, international companies.  Much as I hate the loony AR organisations like PETA and IFAW, this is something they do well!  What are they doing about it??
		
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http://www.peta.org/factsheet/files/factsheetdisplay.asp?ID=69

YET it is not one of thier campaigns



Here is one to vomit over.  A wild horse jockey tells us his "humorous" view of the horse's opinion of the event, and the horses set of "rules" Warning, this one will get your blood boiling, to the point of not caring if you go to jail for what you will want to say to him.
http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/422561/understanding_wild_horse_racing_official.html?cat=14

And IFAW appears to be unaware
http://www.ifaw.org/ifaw_united_states/join_campaigns/index.php

This one, Shark, was THE only one doing anything about it, they are the ones with the film, however, half of thier website is missing now, or broken links.  these guys have gotten them selves beaten bloody for 'hidden camera's' and it was because of thier actions that the prison rodeo was "cancelled', so I am now worried that something bad has happened to them.
http://www.sharkonline.org/rodeocrueltywildhorserace.mv


Let me say this about this petition, is the originator knows full well the emense responsibility they have taken on, and has assured us they will see it through.  i would ask them some questions, but in the light of my current, hidden identity, I must refrain, but promise to flood them with questions when the signatures are obtained.  cross my fingers hope to die.


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## tongue~n~cheek (22 July 2010)

actions-speak-louder said:



			It would be nice TIC, if you were to continue with your free unconditional horse help on this forum, because despite everything you have a lot to give, but I feel you may have to keep your anonymity to achieve this. That maybe a big challenge for you. 

So cheers and get some sleep.

Or maybe do a phoenix.
		
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Hmmm, thank you.  I am going to answer cautiously to this, as I don't want anyone here to think, I am patronizing them, that "I" think I am 'helping" them with thier horses.  I come in with the understanding that each of you are happy within your skills and results, unless you actually tell me otherwise.  IF, there is anyone who has personal questions for thier own situation, as a few have, feel free to PM me and I will give you my email address.

so far I have seen nothing here that suggests anyone wanted info in the sense of getting help, as opposed to morbid curiosity about parelli, just so they know what the heck they are looking at.  With that said, I know from PM's, that many are finding it educating for themselves by reading and following, and I am certainly happy to have provided my share in that.

IF, someone did feel they wanted to post a personal querry here, I think it would be ok, but I would likely not be my authentic self.  there are alot of glaring eyes here, and I am sure, we both would instantly be scrutinized.  I quite honestly, don't have that in me.  Kinda like a mouse walking into a cat house with cat nip, the felines are waiting to pounce, to use the mouse as a play thing or dinner!

your right, my ananimity is already cracking, I had another one, get it right.  she has enjoyed this thread and promises to stay quiet.  that makes 3, but one I told freely as she was from here, not a parelli student, and wouldn't ever be able to guess.  she has promised that she is great under torture, and will never LEAK!


AGAIN, thank you!

I do have, in my puny lilttle brain, an idea hatching, as I am planning my reveal.  I also will notify my webhoster, as I think the traffic jam may be a shocker.  As of now, I have a small but dedicated group of followers on my blog, whom I value greatly.  I love writing, probably because I love TALKING.  Sometimes, but not often after hours of chatting with friends (personal not horse) we just look at each other like, 'what is that it, we finally run out of things to talk about?"  and without having to say a word, we laugh......NOT!


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## brighteyes (22 July 2010)

Mike007 said:



			Oh B+++++ I shortcutted to the end of this thread and realise I now have to go back and read 20 odd pages, consolation prize , I think TIC talks sense.
		
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Do it, 007.  You won't regret the time it takes.


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## Graureiter (22 July 2010)

tongue~n~cheek said:



			Pat and Linda are "pro choice" as it were.  Linda has made a statement about it quite a while back, when that was a NEW letter.  *it is quite old ya know*. 
 Snip,snip.
		
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That's what I was wondering about.


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## Duddy07 (23 July 2010)

tongue~n~cheek said:



			there are alot of glaring eyes here, and I am sure, we both would instantly be scrutinized.  I quite honestly, don't have that in me.  Kinda like a mouse walking into a cat house with cat nip, the felines are waiting to pounce, to use the mouse as a play thing or dinner!

AGAIN, thank you!
		
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It's nice to see someone being open minded on here.  I am a traditionalist but have dabbled in other methods depending on the problem.  NOT ONE method is correct.  People are entitled to their opinions but that is all they are opinions.  No one is right or wrong.


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## tongue~n~cheek (24 July 2010)

Duddy07 said:



			It's nice to see someone being open minded on here.  I am a traditionalist but have dabbled in other methods depending on the problem.  NOT ONE method is correct.  People are entitled to their opinions but that is all they are opinions.  No one is right or wrong.
		
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thank you.  i hate narrow mindedness.  questions keep you honest.  not faith.  i am actually sad right now at some people being so nasty toward one another in the name of being positive.  mere hipocrites.  nothing less.  and no one notices it.  no one questions it.  those that have no problem dictating to another how to think, feel and behave, are the LAST people who should be preaching on the subject.  i say, you don't like it, dont read it.  i want to talk about this, need to talk about it, and how dare you tell me to shut up.  I have met hundreds of great traditional trainers/riders/owners, and used to be one myself.  I also learn from many NH people, not just the parelli's.  I also have my won methods.  My whole world was just turned upside down over this, and yet, I like it.  I am certainly tired of answering questions till 2 in the morning everday, but I like that this was a place of peace, in the middle of a war.  for a while, this was my sanctuary in the midst of madness.  I promise to make good on my promise.  the petition is growing at a wonderful rate, and I owe it all to this thread and my new friends. 

I learned I dont ever want to be famous.


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## mybaileysglide (24 July 2010)

TIC This has been an excellent thread and as yet I have not contributed my opinion. Can you tell are mr and mrs parelli aware of this thread? and their general opinion on it?


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## mybaileysglide (24 July 2010)

I hope you can help me. I did ask this question on another thread and was rudely told off!! can you tell me exactly what mr parelli was apologising for over his demo at the FOTH, and what do you believe his "mistakes" were? parelli have "admitted mistakes" according to the H & H. Perhaps you can clarify what from a parelli point of view these mistakes were?


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## tongue~n~cheek (24 July 2010)

mybaileysglide said:



			TIC This has been an excellent thread and as yet I have not contributed my opinion. Can you tell are mr and mrs parelli aware of this thread? and their general opinion on it?
		
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I honestly have no idea who all knows about this thread, regardless of Pat/Linda, thier staff, instructors, savvy club members or students.

only a small handfull of members have mentioned it on the savvy forum, yet no asks them about it, or further mentions it.  I am sure they don't speak much of it out of fear too, but that is only my speculation.

So far I have recieved no "parelli police" calls or emails.  but two fellow members have figured out who I am, and we talk about it.  they have promised not to rat me out, and I trust them 100%.  I  suspect at least one of the other members who have mentioned the thread knows who I am.  we have bantered back and forth a number of times over the years.

Quite honestly, any member who has spent any amount of time on the forum should be able to figure it out with little effort.

the first one to tell me she knew who I was, knew it right off the bat.  the other had a few on her list to choose from. and did a little sherlock holming and came to the conclusion it is ME.


anyways, since I have no idea if pat and linda know about this thread, i obviously have no idea what they think about it, and I can't even begin to speculate, as i don't know them personally.

I would hope, HOPE, they can see the good of it, as I, an many others do.


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## tongue~n~cheek (24 July 2010)

mybaileysglide said:



			I hope you can help me. I did ask this question on another thread and was rudely told off!! can you tell me exactly what mr parelli was apologising for over his demo at the FOTH, and what do you believe his "mistakes" were? parelli have "admitted mistakes" according to the H & H. Perhaps you can clarify what from a parelli point of view these mistakes were?
		
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Again, I cannot stress this enough.  I am in NO way affiliated with the ANY part of the Parelli organization, other than that of a L4 home study student.

I will tell you what "I" think he was apologising for based on his exact words.  nothing more.  I am NOT going to put my 'hopes" into my interpretation, as many people have.  I do not see it, for what I wanted as an apology or explanation.  I see it, "exactly" as it is written.  I will not read between the lines, as some have done either.  Fact is, it is what it is, and it did lilttle if anything to help ME figure out how I feel about the whole thing, other than possibly make it worse, FOR ME.


His exact words are:

".....I would like to apologise to the audience members who were "confused" by the demonstration methods that I chose in the moment"......"I realize that when my microphone fell off, I should have stopped the demonstration, and talked to you about it"

Here, based on his EXACT words, he is apologising for causing confusion by not *explaining* what/why he was doing what he was doing.

"....some people had difficulty trusting me in this situation, and for that I am sad and apologise for allowing confusion to evolve...."

To me, this says he is sad people didn't trust him, via confusion, again due to no explanation. And that possibly if they "understood" they would trust him.
FOR ME, trust is earned, and not by someone buying a ticket and walking thru the door. Yes, his students, by differing degrees, already trust him, as he has done nothing but do things to earn our trust over time.  But for those with NO or LITTLE prior experiences with him, not knowing him, an explanation would have done little to nothing, IMO.  MANY students who do trust him, would have been confused with an explanation.  Some understand without an explanation. Some understand, and STILL disagree, like ME.
At this point of the letter, TO ME, it does not appear he is saying sorry for anything other than not explaining what he was doing.

Paraphrasing.....He goes on to explain that this was an extremely difficult horse, dealing with issues for a long time, and that he had to "prove to him he did not need to fear it"


"You have to be able to match the energy, not do more or less than the horse, and that takes passive persistance."

This is more tricky for sure.  This, for better or worse, IS his explanation.
It of course will be easier for "students" to understand what he is saying, because we have been taught the meaning of those terms, and how they apply to teqniques.  For everyone else, even some students, this is a very general and vague discpription, using general concepts, and NOT explaining how exactly it applies to the method he chose.  this is where, we as students, are somewhat able to 'get it" but it comes no where CLOSE to explaining how that chosen method was working.

now in efforts to be fair to my self here, honestly, it would probably take me hours to explain his explanation.  his words are clear and if you can draw on your own experiences it will help for sure.  I will likely do more harm than good here, but I will try to do this in a brief manner.  

Ya know what, NO. FOR ME, this is going just a tad to far into defending him for what he did.  He did this, and he alone should be truly explaing what he meant by that, not me.  That fact that he didn't, he and he alone has to stand judgement for that, not me.  It really is something that would take time to explain, and I have spent plenty of time defending the program, which I have no problem doing, it is a wonderful program.  but this will push me just a tad too far out on the limb defending the MAN.  if you want further explanation, go to their website and send them an email.

He goes on to explain more
'there were several times that he gave me signs that he was changing, and then he would try another tactic"


FOR ME, this is when he SHOULD have stopped then. While we will never know now, I beleive that pat could have been just as successful, if he took the whole weekend to "prove" to that horse that he would take his "time".
But that didn't happen, and while successful in the end, at what cost?
The cost to the horse, the audience, the students, the program, thier image, the relationship with world at large.

thier program is all about "the relationship" yet how many relationships were shattered that night?  How much trust was broken?  How many principles broken or abandoned?  How many students lost?  Both current and future.  He went the ultimate mile, for someone going the other direction.  Something he says he won't do.

He goes on:
"blah blah blah, vet, horse OK, bridling successfully now, even back to showing, blah blah blah, not everyone parelli, blah blah" nothing relevent there.

"unfortunately this situation has given those with anti-parelli sentiments "fuel for the fire" to contadict our methods...."

UM, people only contradict them selves, not others. so it appears to others that HE contradicted HIMSELF, and THAT is what added fuel to the fire.

"....I am sorry i created an uncomfortable environment for some of the attendees"


I think he is genuinly sorry for this. I take him at his word here.  he says he is sorry for this and I belelive him.

"blah blah horse doing great, blah blah" again not relevent to question.

"I thank everyone who supports parelli"

I friggin hope so.  Thank you pat for saying that, and your welcome

"sincerely pat parelli' the end

Hope this helps

oh....i don't get HHO mag, so I have no idea what so ever is said in there. sorry.


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## mybaileysglide (24 July 2010)

Thankyou for your reply and yes, that does seem to make perfect sense. By the way, great profile picture!!! your horse?


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## tongue~n~cheek (24 July 2010)

mybaileysglide said:



			Thankyou for your reply and yes, that does seem to make perfect sense. By the way, great profile picture!!! your horse?

Click to expand...

Your welcome, glad to help out anyway I can.

No, I am here incognito, if I used one of my horses, everyone (parelli) would know who I am.  it is a pic of a wild mustang though


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## Bay_Beasty (24 July 2010)

mybaileysglide said:



			Thankyou for your reply and yes, that does seem to make perfect sense. By the way, great profile picture!!! your horse?

Click to expand...

No she can't have him , I am already trying to find out where said picture was taken so I can have him..... he looks gorgeous, very interestingly marked.


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## tongue~n~cheek (26 July 2010)

mrsK said:
			
		


			Huge kudos to Tongue~n~Cheek for her efforts in answering questions with open honesty. She has clearly shown the way forward and we can all learn from her  
QUOTE]Quoted from savvy forum

Thanks a BUNCH.  I appreciate it bunches and bunches and bunches!

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## tongue~n~cheek (27 July 2010)

I saw a couple of posts yesterday on the savvy forum that I want to say,

Awwwwwww THANK YOU.  I guess I made a reference here early on in the thread about having my big girl knickers securely fastened, and being ready and capable for this challenge.  I wrote so much, that I honesely barely remember the mentioning.  I hope the offer of a few new sets of knickers waiting for me in savvy club is a good offer.  I would love nothing more than to talk about this over there.

Infact, I talk about it ALL the time.  talk about inter-method relationships and the need for dropping ALL defensiveness in order to talk to one another.  Sadly when I do, not many read it, talk about it, or it having a lasting effect for those who do.

Sammy, i read your post, and will glady pose the question here tonight, as I am late for work AGAIN.  I can't cut and paste it though.  No offense to you, as I TOTALLY understand what you are saying, but I would like to re word it so that it will come off the right way here.  As written, in my very honest opinion, it will not be well recieved.  In fact, it will start a fight.  Big one.  it is an honest question though, so I will ask people here for you.  However, it is an 'argument' brought up OFTEN by NH students or sympathisers, right now as we speak, during this heated time on other threads and forums, and the argument is not going well.  so I would like to see if it CAN be brought up in a better way, not to cause a fight.


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## Fern (27 July 2010)

planete said:



			Hello Tongue-n-Cheek.  Thank you for posting here.  I am afraid Mr.P. has thoroughly put off quite a few people.  It would be good if it was made extremely clear that he is only the last and not the best natural horsemanship practitioner (just the loudest).  He has borrowed from a lot of horse trainers and turned it into a circus.   Anybody genuinely interested should try one of Mark Rashid books for example.  A huge dose of common sense, love and respect for the horse, and a few digs at the way some use 'natural horsemanship methods'.  There have been, and are, some brilliant horse people who do use natural horsemanship methods to improve the life of horses and the understanding humans have of them.  In all fairness, this needs to be recognised.
		
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Thanks for pointing me in the direction of Mark Rachid - I found this article and his explanation for technique very interesting 

http://www.markrashid.com/docs/questions.pdf


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## Bay_Beasty (27 July 2010)

I'm confused, what question did I ask you again? I did msg u just after taking my pills so it could of been absolute garble. I did have a question I was burning to ask you though and I was sure I didn't pm it to you earlier, but I think I will pm you now just to make sure. Could you also pm me back the pm I sent to you earlier. Oh no, this means I am dementing already. 

*wanders back off into La La land in the hope of finding some sense in there*


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## Bay_Beasty (27 July 2010)

Ok totally disregard my last point, phew I am not going demented. I have just understood, you were not referring to Sammy as in me, but Sammy as in some one else!!! gotcha  sorry for being so dosey


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## tongue~n~cheek (28 July 2010)

bay_beasty said:



			Ok totally disregard my last point, phew I am not going demented. I have just understood, you were not referring to Sammy as in me, but Sammy as in some one else!!! gotcha  sorry for being so dosey 

Click to expand...

Bingo, 'nuther sammy.


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## tongue~n~cheek (28 July 2010)

I have put alot of thought into asking this question, that a savvy memeber wanted asked of you all.  As written it was long, so some paraphrasing is included.  I also, having seen this question asked many times in the past with, well lets say not very favorable results, as in, not recieved well, seen as argumentative.  Thus the mudslinging ensues.  So, I hope I get this right, and suppose this would be the flip side of my experiment.  First can I answer questions, second can I ask them, without ignighting a flame.  so here goes....keep in mind this IS a sincere question, no flaming intended.....


1. Speaking as someone that has been run over by a horse like a football player at the Super Bowl, I see a huge need for the snap and its effectiveness. If the horse that ran over me, when I had only a lead rope in my hand, had a healthey respect for backing up and knew the yo yo game then I feel I would have been saved a trip to the dr to check for a concussion. I guess I'm tryng to understand how those with out a snap or good back up, defends themselves with a flimsey rope. How do you handle a horse crowding you? Do you just get out of the way? 

2. The inside of the horses mouth is the most sensitive area on their body.We (humans) inflict pain there more than anywhere else when bits are used incorectly, in the intrest of saying that the snap is abusive, I don't understand why it doesn't apply across the board to everything done to horses... spurs used incorrectly, crops used incorectly, etc. Honestly, why does the parelli program get so much focus, and not these other types of abuse when they arise?

3. I will ask the Mark Rahid question when the link to the article is posted for me to either copy and paste, or attach a link to it.  K?


So in the intrest of my answering questions as honestly and non defensively as possible, I hope that someone can reciprocate equally for me?  Me personally, I know the answer to the question already, but don't want to speak for anyone else.

Here goes, I am hitting the submit reply button......now.....


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## tongue~n~cheek (28 July 2010)

Ok, since again I can't say thanks on the savvy forum, I will say them here as they mean a whole lot to me.

M..K, E...ann, M....slave, B...ley, N.N.P.W, C...een, I...ahli, L...tta, S.....25, And Especially.....PippinPie.......

Thank you so much, tears of joy, thank you!


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## SpottedCat (28 July 2010)

tongue~n~cheek said:



			1. Speaking as someone that has been run over by a horse like a football player at the Super Bowl, I see a huge need for the snap and its effectiveness. If the horse that ran over me, when I had only a lead rope in my hand, had a healthey respect for backing up and knew the yo yo game then I feel I would have been saved a trip to the dr to check for a concussion. I guess I'm tryng to understand how those with out a snap or good back up, defends themselves with a flimsey rope. How do you handle a horse crowding you? Do you just get out of the way? 

2. The inside of the horses mouth is the most sensitive area on their body.We (humans) inflict pain there more than anywhere else when bits are used incorectly, in the intrest of saying that the snap is abusive, I don't understand why it doesn't apply across the board to everything done to horses... spurs used incorrectly, crops used incorectly, etc. Honestly, why does the parelli program get so much focus, and not these other types of abuse when they arise?
		
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1. Teaching a horse to back up is basic horsemanship - it's not Parelli, it's having the common sense to know a horse needs manners and to respect your personal space. If a horse is running you down, then by all means give it a short, sharp shock to bring it up short - if that's by a snap, a well timed slap or simply shouting and screaming then really, who cares, at the end of the day they are too big to walk on you. You don't need any of the stuff Parelli sells/teaches to train a horse to have good ground manners, you just need a normal headcollar and rope and some consistency. Yes, I make it uncomfortable for my horse when he's doing something I don't want, I make him back up and I make him realise that generally the world is a nicer place when he watches me and ensures he respects my space. I've never needed to 'pop' a horse with a snap to make him realise this, but that doesn't mean I wouldn't if required and to avoid me getting hurt. However, I do object to people teaching someone how to get a horse to back up and repeatedly hitting it with the snap a) when it hasn't really done anything wrong (like the video I posted) and b) without stopping as soon as it backs off. My main issue is that given that Parelli is marketed at novices, why not sell kit novices can't misuse when they get the timing or the pressure wrong. Hell, it's a whole other marketing angle, you buy the lowest level rope and you only get the one with the clip on when you have got to the top level 

2. There are two issues here. Firstly, I think they do get the attention - look at Amy Tryon, the showjumper recently who was disciplined by the FEI etc. Secondly, the reason Parelli gets so much flack is because it purports to be telling us a 'kinder' way to deal with our horses and preaches that those of us who don't do it are somehow a bit dim and idiotic and don't care about our horses nearly as much as the enlightened ones who follow the light supplied (at a very reasonable sum ) by one P. Parelli. There is generally no acceptance that a) some of the practices are dubious, even if only in the way they are taught by those associated with the system, and b) that actually, some of us have managed just fine without these methods and still have well-mannered horses which we care for. 

So I think it is that holier than thou attitude of some Parelli people which draws attention to the system, and which makes people look for the holes - if you didn't preach it as kinder/better/only used by people who actually care about their horses, then I think people would take it for what it is - another training system - lift the good, ignore the bad and use the tools from it that they find useful.


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## Tinypony (28 July 2010)

tongue~n~cheek said:



			I have put alot of thought into asking this question, that a savvy memeber wanted asked of you all.  As written it was long, so some paraphrasing is included.  I also, having seen this question asked many times in the past with, well lets say not very favorable results, as in, not recieved well, seen as argumentative.  Thus the mudslinging ensues.  So, I hope I get this right, and suppose this would be the flip side of my experiment.  First can I answer questions, second can I ask them, without ignighting a flame.  so here goes....keep in mind this IS a sincere question, no flaming intended.....


1. Speaking as someone that has been run over by a horse like a football player at the Super Bowl, I see a huge need for the snap and its effectiveness. If the horse that ran over me, when I had only a lead rope in my hand, had a healthey respect for backing up and knew the yo yo game then I feel I would have been saved a trip to the dr to check for a concussion. I guess I'm tryng to understand how those with out a snap or good back up, defends themselves with a flimsey rope. How do you handle a horse crowding you? Do you just get out of the way? 

2. The inside of the horses mouth is the most sensitive area on their body.We (humans) inflict pain there more than anywhere else when bits are used incorectly, in the intrest of saying that the snap is abusive, I don't understand why it doesn't apply across the board to everything done to horses... spurs used incorrectly, crops used incorectly, etc. Honestly, why does the parelli program get so much focus, and not these other types of abuse when they arise?

So in the intrest of my answering questions as honestly and non defensively as possible, I hope that someone can reciprocate equally for me?  Me personally, I know the answer to the question already, but don't want to speak for anyone else.

Here goes, I am hitting the submit reply button......now.....

Click to expand...

Hi TIC.

1. If you've got a horse running over you, and you've got time to wave your arms to bring the metal clip into contact with your horse's face, then you've got enough time to step to the side and deal with them differently.  Or up your energy and get them off you, or swing the tail of your rope... loads of options open to you.  The last time I got run over it was because I didn't have anything in my hands and couldn't move my feet because my feet were anchored in mud!  The reasons I object to the clip are these:

I was taught that you needed the clip to get precise communication.  That's not true, the horse can feel a lift of your rope before it goes tight, there is no need for the more crude signals given with a lump of metal.

To teach your horse to back up from swinging the rope (including clip) the horse will have the metal come into contact with it's face.  Just not acceptable as a training method to me, and not precise enough to be "fair".

The way most Parelli halters are fitted (another bone of contention, because they normally don't fit at all well), there is a big slack noseband, fiador knot, and a clip hanging off the end.  This means that the clip can, and does, make contact with the horse's face sometimes by accident.  So much for refined communication.

Last, there are excellent horsemen (nh style and not) who manage to avoid being run down american football style by horses all the time, and yet they do not attach lumps of metal under the horse's chins.  Rather than continuing to argue for the use of the clip, maybe some open and enquiring Parelli students would consider going along to some other trainers to see how this works, so that they understand how the alternatives can be just as effective, without hitting horses around the jaw with lumps of metal?

Now that I can ride out and handle my horses in a rope halter with just a rope attached, I can't understand what possessed me to use the ropes with clips, but then I was taught that it was the best way, and for a long time I believed that.

2. When I look back over threads on this forum I see discussions about other abusive tools used with horses.  Over-bitting, whip abuse, ignorant use of all sorts of "tools".  High profile trainers and riders aren't above question. Parelli gets more attention, particularly on this forum, because they like to make a loud noise about what they do, and therefore they attract a lot of attention.  Other forms of unkind treatment are discussed and condemned, but unfortunately the holier than thou attitude of some students, and the insistence of Pat P himself that he is somehow the "best" is what really attracts the attention.

I'd just like to say that I'm speaking here as an ex Parelli student.  I acknowledge and still use a lot of things I found useful in the programme, but waving big metal clips around on ropes wasn't one of them.  All I did was ignore the advice of my Parelli teachers (telling me I wasn't high enough "level" to evaluate other training approaches), and get around some other trainers.  Once I had seen some good alternatives, I just couldn't continue on my Parelli path.


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## tongue~n~cheek (28 July 2010)

Spotted Cat & Tiny Pony, 
I cannot thank you enough for replies.  They were both brilliantly stated in a non-inflametory way with logic and reason.
BTW, I think no matter how many replies we get on the subjects, the answers will basically be repeated in "the reasons".  in otherwords, you couldn't be more right, and it is exactly what I would have said.  Been there, done that, hated all things NH/parelli myself.  As for the clip, like I said to TP before, I will be chatting with you VERY soon regarding that clip.  Not that I would take it off, as I am skilled enough that it only comes into play when I "want" it to, but since I teach, I would like to know more about what you have learned in efforts make sure that novices are not doing more harm than good with the clip.

I just only wish more Parelli students could lay thier eyes on this to see the WHY of the Parelli Hating.  I tell all my students from day one, "do NOT go around telling people you do Parelli.  you don't know enough, or are skilled enough to 'spread the word' or 'debate' any issues yet, you will likely make enemies not friends"  Not one of my students has regreted that descision, and once they understood what they were doing, knew it was up to them on how they comunicate "what" they do.

This is sad.  It is merely because of attitudes.  If attitudes were droped, then discussion could be had about tools or techniques.  good healthey debate.  NOT insane mud slinging blood baths about who HATES or who LOVES Parelli the most.

Thank you for answers.


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## tongue~n~cheek (28 July 2010)

Thank You to my savvy friends who are FINALLY talking about this!  I think if I had started a thread about this discussion here, it would have been a bit obvious who I was.

thank you again


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## Bay_Beasty (28 July 2010)

tongue~n~cheek said:



			1. Speaking as someone that has been run over by a horse like a football player at the Super Bowl, I see a huge need for the snap and its effectiveness. If the horse that ran over me, when I had only a lead rope in my hand, had a healthey respect for backing up and knew the yo yo game then I feel I would have been saved a trip to the dr to check for a concussion. I guess I'm tryng to understand how those with out a snap or good back up, defends themselves with a flimsey rope. How do you handle a horse crowding you? Do you just get out of the way? 

2. The inside of the horses mouth is the most sensitive area on their body.We (humans) inflict pain there more than anywhere else when bits are used incorectly, in the intrest of saying that the snap is abusive, I don't understand why it doesn't apply across the board to everything done to horses... spurs used incorrectly, crops used incorectly, etc. Honestly, why does the parelli program get so much focus, and not these other types of abuse when they arise?

:
		
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I do not feel that the Parelli program is the only program that deals with coping with a horse that decides to disrespect your space in a huge way. I have dealt with horses of all shapes and sizes and been run over once and if dam well hurt. The horse in question only ever did it to me once, she was young with little to no handling and no respect. I used a headcoller and a leadrope at the time, and as I suggest to anyone dealing with a youngster (she was a yearling) i was wearing gloves and a hat and carrying a short stick in my other hand. When the horse ran at me, the reason behind it now unknown, I jumped out the way, and smacked the horse very hard in the chest with the stick, the horse stopped, and I pushed it back, made it wait and carried on, every time the horse attempted to pass, the stick was held in their way, so that they could not, however, never used to hit the horse again, the horse new what the stick did and knew what would happen in they passed me again. Any one can teach a horse good manners on the ground, it takes time and patience and the right tools. The Parelli way does teach it quite clearly and in stages (I have since done some personal research into Parelli and other NH theories since this thread) the hitting of the clip on the face is a clear, as you call it, stage 4, as it, DONT DO THAT. Me hitting the youngster in the chest with the stick is the same principle. I do not think that this is cruel, or hitting a young horse in the face with the clip cruel either, in this kind of situation. in fact If I had not had the hat in this situation I would of had to go to hospital as the horse was big, threw her weight about and clonked me on the head with her head and a leg at one point too. But the hat saved me this trip. I suppose that the long line used in Parelli may make it easier for jumping out the way, but could also create other problems if the horse got the line tangled in the legs, and the line does give the holder more time to think and therefore issue to 'snap'. I can see the benefits of the long line here, but I do not think it is the only way to teach good ground manners, but that is not to say that the Parelli program is not a good way to teach ground manners, just not the only way. 

2. Well I am going to answer this question as I see it now, and not how I would of 3 weeks ago when I was less clued up. As I have said before, I have been researching this program (and others), in it principles and the theory behind it. Now the theory as I see it, is to have a more horse like relationship with your horse, as in, learning the body language the horse uses. This, too me, does not mean be 100% cuddly to your horse all the time and let it walk all over you and not tell it off. Horses in the wild have a hierarchy and the way I see it, the Parelli scheme and other NH schemes are about teaching the Human to be the Alpha Horse and therefore with body language and correction, get their horse to co operate, and by so have a more natural relationship with the horse. In the wild, horses tell each other off, in fact the kick, bite, fight etc etc and cause damage. However there are usually signs that most horses are aware off before the harsher stuff ensues. The way I see the Parelli relationship is teaching a horse to do what you want from these, subtler and less harsh signs, if they dont then the harsher tools are used. In Parelli they appear to be called phases, from 1 to 4. So in teaching a horse to go back, a phase 1 is supposed to be touching the horses hair, and phase 4 is pushing hard into the muscle to elicit a response. This to me, might be cruel IF only phase 4 were used, and sometimes videos, etc etc appear to use only phase 4. (Some Students are arguing that what happened to catwalk was a severe phase 4, other students are saying it was way beyond a phase 4 and verging on the cruel). So I guess, the point I am making here is in theory the PNH is not about being cruel, but teaching your horse in a way that uses a more natural approach, which does not mean only cuddles and kisses, it means using an approach the works with the horses natural instincts. It appears that it is in the practice of this theory where the abuse or possibility of abuse occurs. BUT and this is the big but, Parelli is not the only case where this happens, this also occurs in more traditional approaches, eg Rollkur etc etc and other NH schemes. I personally have witnessed Kelly Marks do some hideously cruel things to horses. Cruelty occurs everywhere under all names, it is not the tools that create the abuse, but the bearers of those tools. A gun on its own will never kill anyone, it is in the hands that hold the gun where the killing occurs. 

I hope I have made myself clear. I am not about to go and start up Parelli, for all those worried, however I was interested to learn more after this thread and the clear and concise discussion that T~n~C raised. It is thanks to her that my curiosity rose and since my research into PNH started. I had already researched much into Monty Roberts and others and have liked and encorprated many of those things into training my previous horses. My research in PNH will not make me suddenly go all PNH on you, but I have found it interesting learning about the program and what it aims to achieve and the theory etc etc.


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## tongue~n~cheek (28 July 2010)

If you THINK you know who I am, then you probably DO know who I am. 

I have tried to discuss this before, but until now, it was just speculation and theory.  Now there is proof that you CAN live your lives in your boarding situations and co-exist peacfully.  You do not have to have conversations turn into blood baths on forums.  If you read COTH forum, you will see this thread mentioned a time or two, yet it falls on def ears.  This issue of 'communication' needs to be discussed, and SHOULD be on the forefront of everyones minds.

It is not only the relationship with the horse that matters, our relationship with humans should be just as important.

it wouldn't let me edit this in so I added another post, sorry.


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## tongue~n~cheek (28 July 2010)

bay_beasty said:



			I do not feel that the Parelli program is the only program that deals with coping with a horse that decides to disrespect your space in a huge way. I have dealt with horses of all shapes and sizes and been run over once and if dam well hurt. The horse in question only ever did it to me once, she was young with little to no handling and no respect. I used a headcoller and a leadrope at the time, and as I suggest to anyone dealing with a youngster (she was a yearling) i was wearing gloves and a hat and carrying a short stick in my other hand. When the horse ran at me, the reason behind it now unknown, I jumped out the way, and smacked the horse very hard in the chest with the stick, the horse stopped, and I pushed it back, made it wait and carried on, every time the horse attempted to pass, the stick was held in their way, so that they could not, however, never used to hit the horse again, the horse new what the stick did and knew what would happen in they passed me again. Any one can teach a horse good manners on the ground, it takes time and patience and the right tools. The Parelli way does teach it quite clearly and in stages (I have since done some personal research into Parelli and other NH theories since this thread) the hitting of the clip on the face is a clear, as you call it, stage 4, as it, DONT DO THAT. Me hitting the youngster in the chest with the stick is the same principle. I do not think that this is cruel, or hitting a young horse in the face with the clip cruel either, in this kind of situation. in fact If I had not had the hat in this situation I would of had to go to hospital as the horse was big, threw her weight about and clonked me on the head with her head and a leg at one point too. But the hat saved me this trip. I suppose that the long line used in Parelli may make it easier for jumping out the way, but could also create other problems if the horse got the line tangled in the legs, and the line does give the holder more time to think and therefore issue to 'snap'. I can see the benefits of the long line here, but I do not think it is the only way to teach good ground manners, but that is not to say that the Parelli program is not a good way to teach ground manners, just not the only way. 

2. Well I am going to answer this question as I see it now, and not how I would of 3 weeks ago when I was less clued up. As I have said before, I have been researching this program (and others), in it principles and the theory behind it. Now the theory as I see it, is to have a more horse like relationship with your horse, as in, learning the body language the horse uses. This, too me, does not mean be 100% cuddly to your horse all the time and let it walk all over you and not tell it off. Horses in the wild have a hierarchy and the way I see it, the Parelli scheme and other NH schemes are about teaching the Human to be the Alpha Horse and therefore with body language and correction, get their horse to co operate, and by so have a more natural relationship with the horse. In the wild, horses tell each other off, in fact the kick, bite, fight etc etc and cause damage. However there are usually signs that most horses are aware off before the harsher stuff ensues. The way I see the Parelli relationship is teaching a horse to do what you want from these, subtler and less harsh signs, if they dont then the harsher tools are used. In Parelli they appear to be called phases, from 1 to 4. So in teaching a horse to go back, a phase 1 is supposed to be touching the horses hair, and phase 4 is pushing hard into the muscle to elicit a response. This to me, might be cruel IF only phase 4 were used, and sometimes videos, etc etc appear to use only phase 4. (Some Students are arguing that what happened to catwalk was a severe phase 4, other students are saying it was way beyond a phase 4 and verging on the cruel). So I guess, the point I am making here is in theory the PNH is not about being cruel, but teaching your horse in a way that uses a more natural approach, which does not mean only cuddles and kisses, it means using an approach the works with the horses natural instincts. It appears that it is in the practice of this theory where the abuse or possibility of abuse occurs. BUT and this is the big but, Parelli is not the only case where this happens, this also occurs in more traditional approaches, eg Rollkur etc etc and other NH schemes. I personally have witnessed Kelly Marks do some hideously cruel things to horses. Cruelty occurs everywhere under all names, it is not the tools that create the abuse, but the bearers of those tools. A gun on its own will never kill anyone, it is in the hands that hold the gun where the killing occurs. 

I hope I have made myself clear. I am not about to go and start up Parelli, for all those worried, however I was interested to learn more after this thread and the clear and concise discussion that T~n~C raised. It is thanks to her that my curiosity rose and since my research into PNH started. I had already researched much into Monty Roberts and others and have liked and encorprated many of those things into training my previous horses. My research in PNH will not make me suddenly go all PNH on you, but I have found it interesting learning about the program and what it aims to achieve and the theory etc etc.
		
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## aspenglow14 (30 July 2010)

Furthermore, now with the new requirement that you HAVE to be a member in order to attend clinics or even take lessons (you can get 3 trial lessons without joining) after that must be a member to participate in parelli activities, there goes a whole lot of business, and comunity respect out the window.
		
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I'm confused about this.  When did this new requirement occur?  I've audited a lot of clinics (although not in this past year), but every one I've seen advertised gives 2 prices for auditing - regular price and savvy club price (which is usually about $5 over the 2/3 days).  I'm just wondering when this started.  Thanks!


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## JanetGeorge (30 July 2010)

tongue~n~cheek said:



			1. Speaking as someone that has been run over by a horse like a football player at the Super Bowl, I see a huge need for the snap and its effectiveness. If the horse that ran over me, when I had only a lead rope in my hand, had a healthey respect for backing up and knew the yo yo game then I feel I would have been saved a trip to the dr to check for a concussion. I guess I'm tryng to understand how those with out a snap or good back up, defends themselves with a flimsey rope. How do you handle a horse crowding you? Do you just get out of the way?
		
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I have Irish Draughts - which are big horses!  They are trained from an early age to respect my space - and I mean from days and weeks old!  I can then teach them KINDLY that I am stronger than them (in the short period while it's still true!!)  Obviously not everyone has the advantage of training their horses from day 1 - nor the skill to do it - and we get  lot of horses in for re-schooling that are bargey, ill-mannered so-and-so's who'll happily crowd you, walk on your feet and push you out of the way (for at least a day!)

The approch to these horses varies depending on the individual - but for me, it has never involved crackingthem in the face with a 'snap' (cute name for a lump of metal!)  Leading them PROPERLY, carrying Mr. Blue Pipe if necessary - which can be used to give them a prod in the neck or elbow if they get too close - and sensible 'body language' and use of voice is invariably enough!




			2. The inside of the horses mouth is the most sensitive area on their body.We (humans) inflict pain there more than anywhere else when bits are used incorectly, in the intrest of saying that the snap is abusive, I don't understand why it doesn't apply across the board to everything done to horses... spurs used incorrectly, crops used incorectly, etc. Honestly, why does the parelli program get so much focus, and not these other types of abuse when they arise?
		
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Of COURSE spurs used incorrectly, whips used to excess, and bits -whether mild or severe bits - in the wrong hands are abusive! And these abuses DO get focus-as does Rollkur (abuse at the highest level!)  But the people who use these 'aids' in an abusive fashion are not normally setting themselves up as horse training gurus - they're just **** riders!

Abuse happens in all 'schools' of horsemanship - but it's not usually promoted bythe top trainers or certainly not by those who claim their way is the only kind way!


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## aspenglow14 (30 July 2010)

TIC - I'm here in the states and I signed your petition.  However, I didn't watch the video.  I can't get stuff like that out of my head - ever - if I see it.  I will take your word that it's horrible and will do anything I can.  I also follow Madeleine Pickens in her fight for the mustangs.  I didn't know the President's daughter was into mustangs - that's good to know.  I hope she hears about their plight and can get through to her dad!


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## tongue~n~cheek (31 July 2010)

aspenglow14 said:



			I'm confused about this.  When did this new requirement occur?  I've audited a lot of clinics (although not in this past year), but every one I've seen advertised gives 2 prices for auditing - regular price and savvy club price (which is usually about $5 over the 2/3 days).  I'm just wondering when this started.  Thanks!

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It started this year.  It is, by my interpretation, phase one of a new way to be a part of parelli. I for one am FAR from happy with it.  they have yet to 'launch" the whole program, which will in some way include the ambasador program.  the details of this are "slim pickens" at best.  but the "gist" is that all lessons, clinics, and other activities will go thru an official ambasador.  the other duties of an ambasador can include an offical club (local), max 12 members. there is required anual training to be an ambasador, and all activities of the group will need to be sent to parelli HQ.  being an ambasador is an unpaid position. All members of each group will have to be savvy club memers to join.  3 trial lessons can be given by instructors, after that you must be a member. 

Now, i will state again, these are the tidbits of info we have been given, they are still ironing out the kinks before the launch, but yes, effective this year you must be a savvy club member to participate fully.  i dont' know if you have to be one to audit a clinic, but the way this is going, why not?

I at first thought since I am not going to be an instructor, this might be a cool way to be involved for me, but I have yet to get the details I need, in order to spend ONE dime, becoming an ambasador.  And quite honestly, I dont' see why it should cost me a dime to do something I have been doing for years.  but on a tangent I can go, so I will get off this soap box, before i insert both feet in my mouth.  This is not a fully developed program yet, and details, the little we have, could change many times before it is launched.


I have only seen it mentioned on a few instructors websites.  here is one to look at.  once there, click on "get started" link on left, then scroll ALL the way to the bottom

http://www.vifargent.com/VifArgent-Conseil-Frame-A.htm

but here is the quote, incase it disapears

"Starting 2010, all Parelli students will need to be members of the Savvy Club in order to participate in clinics and lessons, and to be assessed for their levels. "


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## tongue~n~cheek (31 July 2010)

aspenglow14 said:



			TIC - I'm here in the states and I signed your petition.  However, I didn't watch the video.  I can't get stuff like that out of my head - ever - if I see it.  I will take your word that it's horrible and will do anything I can.  I also follow Madeleine Pickens in her fight for the mustangs.  I didn't know the President's daughter was into mustangs - that's good to know.  I hope she hears about their plight and can get through to her dad!
		
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Thank you so much, the signatures has slowed down for sure, we were on a real roll there for a couple of weeks.  hope it picks back up.


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## aspenglow14 (31 July 2010)

Wow.  I'm *really* sorry to hear that.  I happen to be a member of the Savvy Club, but there is a girl where I board who would love to join, but right now can't even afford the $20/month.  I love the information available to SC members.  Parelli has helped me so much with my horse, but now it sounds like "if you can't afford us, too bad - guess you'll have to go somewhere else".  This just might be the ruination (is that a word?) of Parelli, and that will make me very sad.  I wish they could understand that not everyone has the money that they have, and that there are _some_ things people can't afford.  Truly sad.


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## tongue~n~cheek (31 July 2010)

I have to say with all of this, I have rarely injected my own opinion, well maybe a bit more than rarely, but still havn't said a few things that have asked, answered, or discussed here.  So here is something to ponder, for everyone, no matter what side of the fence you sit on.


I have one perplexing question.  At what age does one reach the middle? I have to say I am probably less offended at anti-parelli remarks as they have to with horsemanship, as I do at being referred to as middle aged.  THAT bothers me more than being called a circus freak, or mindless sheep for sure!

So if the average life expectancy of a woman is say 75, the middle is what?  37.5yo  That is THE median line for sure, but how far is the reach of the grey area?  And who so defines this said area?  A teenager?  An old lady in a wheel chair?  Me, who denies relentlessly that I am aging, in hopes  that one day I will wake up in a new body without losing my wits?


I know I am definitely middle aged now, and I feel that my faculties are far more wise than that of my youth.  I had made some of THE single handed most ridiculous choices in my horsemanship in my youth.  I can honestly say, I had NO common sense.  But truly what teen does?  If one wants to think of anyone as being a know it all who is immortal one only needs to travel to the local high school to find yourself a few thousand examples of this.  Of course a thousand teens will surely be offended by this, but I bet that each of those childs (yes you are still a child) parents would agree with me whole heartedly, as well as those teens, once they become "middle aged".  It is actually a good thing, as they are the risk takers.  You really learn the best from your mistakes, and you don't make mistakes, if you dont' take risks.

The reason why people THINK most Parelli people are middle aged women, is because that is all you see.  The kids who do Parelli have left us in their dust, they are out competing, living life and having a grand time with their horses as they well should, the future belongs to them.  And the old farts are sitting on a heating pad, laden with packs of ice and ben-gay.

So who do you see? Those of us left in the middle, with JOBS, kids, husbands, a home to care for and the like.  We are far from stupid, last I checked your brain doesnt fall out of your head the day you turn 30.

I can say that if one is new to horses, no matter what method they choose, they will likely look a fool for quite some time.  I am here to challenge the myth that horses are just common sense.  THAT, is not a fact, and couldnt be farther from the truth.  And even if it is, dont forget,  one has to have common sense in the first place to be able to apply it to horses!

Parelli students have not cornered the market for stupidity as far as helmets are concerned.  A vast majority of non-jumping traditional riders and NH/non Parelli, in FACT do not wear helmets.  The only difference here is that OUR commander and chief issued the lamest statement to the public on the matter.  

Now, I dont think she meant parelli training=not needing a helmet, I believe she meant we try to teach people to think first before just getting on, to try to make a horse safe before getting on, and not to be foolish and think that a helmet ALONE makes you safe, and that one is safer with good training than without.  However, her exact words do not look anything like that, so maybe it is just wishful thinking.  Why, I have no idea, I am not her.

Pat, Linda, instructors, staff and students, pay attention. Parelli doesn't make you safe.  Last year, a parelli student came to look and some young, untrained yearlings for sale.  friend of a friend selling, just got them in the week before I believe.  Parelli student starts playing with a horse, and without a warning, got her face kicked off of her skull by another horse in the pasture.  A helmet would NOT have saved her face, and neither did Parelli. 

The worst part of the ANTI-Parelli movement for me, is that in ones ATTACK on Pat and Linda, we the students are slung through the mud, and used as weapons.  And the only thing that really irritates me about it, is that there is some perception that we are all stupid and cant think for our selves. Novice or not.  Though I admit freely, there are plenty of examples of those who blindly follow.

But whos fault is that? OURS.  WHY? Because some of us (not me of course) cannot ask or answer a question without being on the defensive/offensive, cannot answer without regurgitating mantras, cannot answer in anyway that might be viewed as not having faith in everything deemed Parelli.  

The fact of the matter is this.  ALL horses are dangerous.  Just as cars and bikes .  But horses have a mind of their own, unlike cars.  PLEASE  know, that no horse, no piece of apparel, and no training method will protect you from everything.   Education & helmets decrease the risk, but does not, in any way shape or form, eliminate it.  You dont have to be going balls to the wall on a cross country course, riding a green or difficult horse,  OR doing Parelli,  to be in a dangerous situation.  ANY one who thinks otherwise is a fool.  Having said that, a helmet will only save you from concussion to the protected area.  If you fall off and get then get stepped on in the face.  OUCH!  My most serious accidents to date, were no where near my head, and I could have bled to death, when my thigh was stepped on, narrowly missing my femoral artery.  Parelli could not have saved me, my saddle slipped.  No helmet would have saved me.  A helmet, is no more, no less, a tool in assisting us to be safer than without the tool, just as training is a tool to assist in being safer than without it.  Parelli is all about using all the tools we can find, it only makes sense, to protect your most valuable tool, YOUR BRAIN!  If getting off when a horse becomes dangerous is THE best thing to do, then why didnt linda before her fall, get off.  BECAUSE SHE COULDNT SEE IT COMING, as with MOST ACCIDENTS.  Helmets save lives, training saves lives, but accidents STILL happen.

So Yes the Parelli's are pro-choice, but obviously it would be in their favor to say something in the regards to them being a life saving tool. Not just dismis them all together.

As a "middle aged woman" I have a lot I am responsible for.  People who count on me.  A snap is not the first thing or only thing I go to, to keep a horse off of me, but for god sakes, I dont' think twice about my safety.  Like I said before, "stay off me, then we'll talk"


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## baymareb (31 July 2010)

tongue~n~cheek said:



			1. Speaking as someone that has been run over by a horse like a football player at the Super Bowl, I see a huge need for the snap and its effectiveness. If the horse that ran over me, when I had only a lead rope in my hand, had a healthey respect for backing up and knew the yo yo game then I feel I would have been saved a trip to the dr to check for a concussion. I guess I'm tryng to understand how those with out a snap or good back up, defends themselves with a flimsey rope. How do you handle a horse crowding you? Do you just get out of the way?
		
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My mare was very bargy when I first got her.  She came from the track and had no ground manners whatsoever.  She was also very sensitive and I think if I'd started waving a rope at her to back her up, she would have become quite nervous about it.

I did groundwork with her every single day.  I led her in a plain halter and lead and considered the entire time she was being handled a training session.  I walked her around in arenas and periodically asked her to whoa.  She learned quickly that I meant "stop now" not "keep on moving" or "step on me, please."  It didn't take any kind of violence - just a tug on the halter and a crisp, "WHOA."

I also asked her to back regularly, simply by standing beside her, placing my hand on her chest, applying light backward pressure on the halter and saying "back."  She learned that quickly too.

My mare can be in a totally goofy mood (she was today) but as soon as I say, "Aaack, WHOA!" she whoas.  She has never run me down, or anyone else.  And I've never known a horse in all the years before the Parellis Clip came along, that did.



tongue~n~cheek said:



			2. The inside of the horses mouth is the most sensitive area on their body.We (humans) inflict pain there more than anywhere else when bits are used incorectly, in the intrest of saying that the snap is abusive, I don't understand why it doesn't apply across the board to everything done to horses... spurs used incorrectly, crops used incorectly, etc. Honestly, why does the parelli program get so much focus, and not these other types of abuse when they arise?
		
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Didn't a show jumper just get suspended for improper usage of a crop?  And look at the outrage about Rolkur.  Those things ARE noticed and disapproved of.

I really think it's a poor argument to day, "Well, but HE'S doing it!" but beyond that, I think it's more noticeable when Parelli methods seem cruel because we're told they are methods that work WITH the horse rather than forcing it.

For what it's worth, I didn't really look at anyone else's answer to this - since I'd gone through the first example recently with my mare, it seemed a good question to answer.


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## tongue~n~cheek (31 July 2010)

aspenglow14 said:



			Wow.  I'm *really* sorry to hear that.  I happen to be a member of the Savvy Club, but there is a girl where I board who would love to join, but right now can't even afford the $20/month.  I love the information available to SC members.  Parelli has helped me so much with my horse, but now it sounds like "if you can't afford us, too bad - guess you'll have to go somewhere else".  This just might be the ruination (is that a word?) of Parelli, and that will make me very sad.  I wish they could understand that not everyone has the money that they have, and that there are _some_ things people can't afford.  Truly sad.
		
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You think it is sad now?  wait till this thing goes "live" next year, in full force.  Great on paper, but when you exlude people like that, you cut off the life blood of the instructors income.  they already have had the income from audtions stripped from them, now forcing people to be members to get lessons, I could 'eh, kinda see clinics, but lessons?  Please!  and the formal 'groups"?  12max people.  what happens when 1 more shows up, are we suppose to tell them to get lost and create thier own group.  what if you are playing out with your friends and a non member, but still parelli person shows up? tell them they can't play?  God, I would kick some serious A$$ on the playground for kids treating each other this way, yet as adults, let send a message that this is OK behaviour.  Yikes, gets my blood on boil for sure!  I would NEVER turn someone away who wanted to join in the fun.  NEVER.  nothing short of just plain RUDE!

you think traditionalists hate us now?  wait till they start seeing us turning people away at play days.  WE as students, are doomed!


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## tongue~n~cheek (31 July 2010)

double post error sorry!


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## Tinypony (31 July 2010)

Goodness!  I suppose my reaction is that this will give people a bit of a boost to go and see other trainers who don't have restrictions like this.


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## Bay_Beasty (31 July 2010)

T~n~C - in reply to your post as being middle aged and sensible. Your only as young as you feel  (I know not what you wanted to hear). But you have made a fantastic point here. In my searching since this thread, I have come across the FEW parellians who are arrogant and treat Pat and Linda as infallible Kings among men, but they are the minority. There are far more Parellians who are sensible and who have the safety first approach. I feel that I am an example of when arrogance takes over. My accident with Jim was caused by my idiocy, my feelings that 'All will be ok and nothing will go wrong'. I should of had my back protector on. But I didnt and I am paying the price now. Off work with with No Pay and a very sore back and LESSON LEARNED. It doesnt matter how long you have been in the sport how experienced you are and what angle you take on your training, at the end of the day, safety first, always. I like how you have addressed this issue and feel I can say no more here. 


As for who defines the Middle, I think its more on how you act. I know 25 yr olds who are going on 40 and I know 52 year olds who are going on 25. Its what you do, how you do it and the attitude you take. If you don't feel middle aged, don't let anyone tell you that you are. I dont feel 24, I still feel 21, and act it. And sometimes I act like a teenager again (mainly when I am doing stupid things like deciding to jump off bridges into rivers), but I don't care. 

But what shocks me here is the new system you have, from what I have gathered here and reading that link, that its all about money money money and nothing else. This will be a sad day for Parelli indeed. It has clearly stopped being about developing a more natural relationship with your horse, and is all about how much money the people at the top can line their pockets with. It is sad, when did it all go wrong?? I am sure when Pat and Linda laid the foundations of this idea they did not want this to happen, in fact in my journey to understand more about Parelli and what all the 'lingo' meant, I had the idea that Pat just wanted to offer a way for people to learn how to communicate with their horses. Clearly I was wrong. This is a sad day. All I will say here is that Richard Dawkins and his Selfish gene would be proud of this new act.


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## tongue~n~cheek (31 July 2010)

Tinypony said:



			Goodness!  I suppose my reaction is that this will give people a bit of a boost to go and see other trainers who don't have restrictions like this.
		
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Ding Ding Ding!  Works out good for me as a natural trainer with NO restrictions!


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## jinglejoys (31 July 2010)

Don't forget that Pat did say he's hoping for children to go free soon


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## tongue~n~cheek (31 July 2010)

jinglejoys said:



			Don't forget that Pat did say he's hoping for children to go free soon
		
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I hadn't heard that.  that is good news.  Children are our future!


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## Natch (31 July 2010)

jinglejoys said:



			Don't forget that Pat did say he's hoping for children to go free soon
		
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Sounds like a bit of a couble edged sword though. Children go free but presumably only with an adult who is all subscribed? Thus neatly encouraging the longevity of Parelli as children grow up to become paying adults.

The cynical among us would just call that good marketing


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## aspenglow14 (1 August 2010)

T~n~C - You're absolutely right!  There are people I know who went to their first clinic, not being members, just to see how it went with their horses.  As a matter of fact, what if Linda had been told she couldn't ride in that first clinic unless she joined the Savvy Club?  I know there _was_ no Savvy Club then, but the point is, *would* she have when she didn't even know if it would work for her?  I'm not so sure about that one!  I think this will be their downfall, and like I said, I'm really disappointed.  I guess the "make the world a better place for humans ahd horses" should be revised to "make the world a better place for *wealthy* humans and horses.  

Ah yes, we members will be more under fire from the traditionalists.  Oh, Lord.  And you're absolutely right - totally rude, totally bad manners to exclude someone from a play day.  Like I said, there's a girl at the barn where I board who works two jobs to afford her horse.  She got bucked off him about 4 years ago, and hasn't ridden since.  She really is interested in trying Parelli, and I let her use some of my equipment, but there's no way she's going to fork over the $20/month - h#$l, that's a couple of bags of feed for her! 

Pat has such a gift, and I guess it's all gone to his head and all he sees are $$$$$.  Really sad.  I know that I won't be trying to recruit new people.


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## baymareb (1 August 2010)

aspenglow14 said:



			Like I said, there's a girl at the barn where I board who works two jobs to afford her horse.  She got bucked off him about 4 years ago, and *hasn't ridden since*.
		
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Seriously?  Why not?  And what's the horse been doing for four years?  

I don't mean to sound cold - I do understand fear after a fall but at some point, you have to make up your mind to either do something about it or get out of horses.  I'm not sure what you expect Parelli to do for this girl but the best thing someone with some fears can do is get on a nice quiet horse and ride.


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## tongue~n~cheek (1 August 2010)

Naturally said:



			Sounds like a bit of a couble edged sword though. Children go free but presumably only with an adult who is all subscribed? Thus neatly encouraging the longevity of Parelli as children grow up to become paying adults.

The cynical among us would just call that good marketing 

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Well being a cynic my self, albeit an optimsitic one, I concure!


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## tongue~n~cheek (1 August 2010)

aspenglow14 said:



			T~n~C - You're absolutely right!  There are people I know who went to their first clinic, not being members, just to see how it went with their horses.  As a matter of fact, what if Linda had been told she couldn't ride in that first clinic unless she joined the Savvy Club?  I know there _was_ no Savvy Club then, but the point is, *would* she have when she didn't even know if it would work for her?  I'm not so sure about that one!  I think this will be their downfall, and like I said, I'm really disappointed.  I guess the "make the world a better place for humans ahd horses" should be revised to "make the world a better place for *wealthy* humans and horses.  

Ah yes, we members will be more under fire from the traditionalists.  Oh, Lord.  And you're absolutely right - totally rude, totally bad manners to exclude someone from a play day.  Like I said, there's a girl at the barn where I board who works two jobs to afford her horse.  She got bucked off him about 4 years ago, and hasn't ridden since.  She really is interested in trying Parelli, and I let her use some of my equipment, but there's no way she's going to fork over the $20/month - h#$l, that's a couple of bags of feed for her! 

Pat has such a gift, and I guess it's all gone to his head and all he sees are $$$$$.  Really sad.  I know that I won't be trying to recruit new people.
		
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I am all for the fact that everyone makes mistakes, even Pat and Linda.  And in my honest opinion, this is gonna be a big one.

a few, and i do mean a FEW, savvy members are of the opinion that this is a good thing.  that it some how will show you are "serious" and "commited" and "dedicated".  OH, I see.  so if becoming a savvy club member means you are those things, than I guess it must mean that you are REALLY serious if you are Silver Member, and the MOST dedicated if you are a GOLD Member!  Let me tell you this right now, THAT won't go over well with the general population of REGULAR savvy club students.  In fact, it has already been PROVEN by the general population of savvy club members, that they don't like being classed like that. 

I really think those that are saying that, should think before they speak.

I know, back when I first started Parelli, I would have NEVER started, if I would have had to become a member to participate.  NEVER!  Not just for the fact that I have limited funds, but on SHEER principle alone.  I have been put in the postition before of being excluded from a horse club, and let me tell you this.  It HURT!  So if that is what y'all want to do, you go right ahead.  Put your car on auto pilot, I for one, am going to drive myslef!

The good news is, that if one does want to do Parelli, at least you can buy the program on E-bay for half price.


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## tongue~n~cheek (1 August 2010)

baymareb said:



			Seriously?  Why not?  And what's the horse been doing for four years?  

I don't mean to sound cold - I do understand fear after a fall but at some point, you have to make up your mind to either do something about it or get out of horses.  I'm not sure what you expect Parelli to do for this girl but the best thing someone with some fears can do is get on a nice quiet horse and ride.
		
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I don't disagree with the riding a nice quiet horse, or say that Parelli is going to fix her, as who knows.

but I will say a thing about fear.  I myself suffer from it.  Not all horses, was just one, and i did work it out with the book in the blue parelli level 2 by Dr Stephanie Burns called "move closer stay longer".  Awesome read and very helpful.  Fear is tricky, and it is something that each person has to overcome themselves.  And the fear does not erase ones love of horses, or make that horse no longer a good friend.  One does NOT need to ride to have a horse.  Many people cannot ride for many reasons.  illness, injury, pregancy, fear, owning mini's or ponies or yearlings.  Parelli does provide a way to have fun and challenges for those who don't/can't/won't ride.

But I definately agree that four years is a long time to NOT adress a fear of something you love.  It would likely be in her best intrest to take some lessons on a great horse, and have a trainer ride her horse for at LEAST a few rides, as the horse hasn't been ridden in years.  Then lessons to help when she starts to ride her own horse again.

I hope your frind finds peace and love with her horse, no matter how she chooses to find it.


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## horseaddict (1 August 2010)

I joined this forum specifically to say how much i admire TNC. Thank you so much for your dedication and beautiful attitude. You are a credit to the human race.
I am one of the regular savvy club members and have been following the system for 6years. During that time i have encountered mainly curiosity from people who were unfamiliar with my strange equipment (!) I have always answered questions and not ever been arrogant enough to insinuate that Parelli is the only way - that would be silly when my pony might expose my weaknesses on that day and prove that pride does indeed come before a fall!
I have followed this thread from the beginning and i am humbled by the open mindedness of the contributers. Thank you. I am sad to say that it is in contrast with some of the comments on the savvy club forum. But we are NOT all the same and i believe that thanks to TNC people realize that.
I will not be renewing my membership at the end of the year and will wait to see if anything changes in the organisation to change my mind. Shame i wont be able to attend courses as i have met some of my best friends this way and learnt so much. I will continue in my journey of learning and improving and having fun with my horses.


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## tongue~n~cheek (1 August 2010)

horseaddict said:



			I joined this forum specifically to say how much i admire TNC. Thank you so much for your dedication and beautiful attitude. You are a credit to the human race.
I am one of the regular savvy club members and have been following the system for 6years. During that time i have encountered mainly curiosity from people who were unfamiliar with my strange equipment (!) I have always answered questions and not ever been arrogant enough to insinuate that Parelli is the only way - that would be silly when my pony might expose my weaknesses on that day and prove that pride does indeed come before a fall!
I have followed this thread from the beginning and i am humbled by the open mindedness of the contributers. Thank you. I am sad to say that it is in contrast with some of the comments on the savvy club forum. But we are NOT all the same and i believe that thanks to TNC people realize that.
I will not be renewing my membership at the end of the year and will wait to see if anything changes in the organisation to change my mind. Shame i wont be able to attend courses as i have met some of my best friends this way and learnt so much. I will continue in my journey of learning and improving and having fun with my horses.
		
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WOW, THANK YOU!
I am crying, thank  you!

I know this may sound odd, but I am a highly emotional person.  I have spent my whole life learning to control my emotions.  I also am far from brave.  I am terrified of public speaking and having people watch me with my horses, especially showing.  I freeze up.  with my new job, i have had to work on speaking in a large group, and at least now i can actually speak. words easily flow from my fingertips as it does not require breathing to do so!

it is sad that there are those that have no problem shunning people or being elitists.  It has been hard keeping my mouth shut over there at the moment.  if you could only hear the screams on this side of the computer screen.  i have to say i have NO desire to associate my self with people like that.  first to be superior to traditionalists, and now against our selves?  All I can do is shake my head and cry.  A great program is about to realize itself into the naysayers accusations as ultimate proof of the truth, that they have been right all along.  And I will no longer be able to argue with them.  As i will no longer disagree.  Shame for sure.

But it IS called "Parelli" natural horsemanship, so I guess he has the right to do with it as he so pleases.  But I don't have to go along on the ride.

I have sent you a PM.

Good luck on your Journey on the outside, have a looksie for me, as that is where I will be too!


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## aspenglow14 (2 August 2010)

baymareb said:



			Seriously?  Why not?  And what's the horse been doing for four years?  

I don't mean to sound cold - I do understand fear after a fall but at some point, you have to make up your mind to either do something about it or get out of horses.  I'm not sure what you expect Parelli to do for this girl but the best thing someone with some fears can do is get on a nice quiet horse and ride.
		
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She's been taking care of him and loving him for four years.  She takes lessons on the ground with him when she has time and can afford it - remember, she works *two* jobs to keep this horse.  There is a NH trainer in the area who she wants to have ride him - when she has $40/hour, minimum 2 hours). 

She's single (with a boyfriend who's NOT into horses), no kids and 40 years old.  She loves this horse more than anything - the boyfriend will go before the horse does .  She's ridden my QH, but she was still scared.  She doesn't care if she can NEVER ride him again - she loves him and he will never have another home.  They have a relationship that's beautiful to see.  He was a rescue horse, and i *know* that this horse knows she saved his life - he loves and trusts her totally.  

I don't know if Parelli could help her, but it couldn't hurt.  Maybe she'll ride him again, maybe she won't, but she'll never stop loving him and taking care of him.


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## aspenglow14 (2 August 2010)

tongue~n~cheek said:



			WOW, THANK YOU!
I am crying, thank  you!

I know this may sound odd, but I am a highly emotional person.  I have spent my whole life learning to control my emotions.  I also am far from brave.  I am terrified of public speaking and having people watch me with my horses, especially showing.  I freeze up.  with my new job, i have had to work on speaking in a large group, and at least now i can actually speak. words easily flow from my fingertips as it does not require breathing to do so!

it is sad that there are those that have no problem shunning people or being elitists.  It has been hard keeping my mouth shut over there at the moment.  if you could only hear the screams on this side of the computer screen.  i have to say i have NO desire to associate my self with people like that.  first to be superior to traditionalists, and now against our selves?  All I can do is shake my head and cry.  A great program is about to realize itself into the naysayers accusations as ultimate proof of the truth, that they have been right all along.  And I will no longer be able to argue with them.  As i will no longer disagree.  Shame for sure.

But it IS called "Parelli" natural horsemanship, so I guess he has the right to do with it as he so pleases.  But I don't have to go along on the ride.

I have sent you a PM.

Good luck on your Journey on the outside, have a looksie for me, as that is where I will be too!

Click to expand...

TnC - Again, no one could say it better.  I have never been a "blind" Parelli follower, but I have been a huge (for want of a better word) fan!  I've gone to his tour stops for the past 6 years when they were close enough to me, I've seen with my own horse(s) how well the program works, and I truly, honestly believed that he wanted to teach people a better way.  I still believe that to a point - I do believe that he loves horses and would never intentionally abuse one.  However, as with most mortals, $$$$$ seem to have become all important.

I don't want to be an elitist either, and don't have the money to if I did .  I have a LOT of the Parelli materials and will continue to use it with my horse because it *DOES* work.  I will also continue with the Savvy Club for now, as a 'regular' member; however, I have a feeling that it won't be long before there will be no "regular" membership, that we will have a choice between Silver and Gold and that will be it.  Sadly, if that happens, I will no longer participate.


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## tongue~n~cheek (3 August 2010)

I think it is all too easy, when a change does not YET directly effect ones self, to point the finger and say That sucks, too bad for YOU! Yet the next change may just be too much for even YOU to swallow.  There is no way they can make everyone happy, but that does NOT mean every idea they have is a good one. 

Yes, everything evolves  it is part of nature.  But not every aspect of evolution plays out as it was intended.  Dinosaurs evolved, and even the mightiest hunter of them all is dead.  Then the Woolly Mammoth and Saber toothed TigerDEAD.  Many species and inventions evolved and are now DEAD.  That is natural too.  Its called natural selection, and the biggest is not always the one to survive.  Adaptability is the game of nature.  And those that cant adapt are culled out.  Some may see this, and think that it is we the students that need to adapt.  And some will.  Until the day a change comes along, so BIG, that they too cannot adapt.

I think of these things throughout history, that were sooooo great, and sooooo useful for a period of time, and then became out dated and no longer useful or efficient enough to survive. 

VHS, floppy disks, cassette tapes, vinyl records, horse drawn plough, Polaroid camera etc.  Can you name which 3 of these are listed as part of the top 100, for inventions that changed the world?  And yet, *poof* gone.  Do we want that to happen to Parelli?  (I know for many here the answer is yes, but not my point) NH will survive, as no other NH programs have been set as high on a pedestal as Pat and Linda.  So high now, we cant even reach them.  The bigger they are, the harder they fall.

As Pat likes to tell us, this stuff is so old, it is new again  Why is that?  Because it died, thats why.  It could not adapt, and nearly became a lost art.  But it did survive in a handful of horsemen, who passed it down thru the generations, until it was discovered again, and packaged for the masses.  

Fact is, there are MANY great horsemen and women out there to learn from.  Pat and Linda may have revolutionized the way many people can learn about horses, but have done very little themselves to change the actual art of horsemanship it self.  Just as the telegraph paved the way for the telephone, which paved the way for the cel-phone.  They too have paved the way for their students to eventually overshadow them. And now, a single cel phone can get you, gps, internet, camera, cam-corder, email, phone, and a small computer.

Something I have noticed already.... Those that feel mandatory membership is good, and feel that those who choose not to agree, mustnt be as dedicated as themselves, as THEY feel secure because they already are a regular member.  Yet at the slightest mention of what if they do away with regular membership fees, and only leave the higher Silver or Gold options, the brakes were applied hard.  Just because you have faith, doesnt mean it wont.  And just because I fear it, doesnt mean it will.

For those that dont want to rock the boat, but still want to have lessons and clinics available, what if the paper work becomes so hard that no one wants to host a clinic anymore, and then YOU have to pay $2000 to become an ambassador to host it yourself.  Do you think YOU will sign up to PAY for the PRIVILEDGE to work your tail off for FREE?  Or would you become a Gold member so you dont have to pay? What if you dont do enough activities in the year to earn your "free" annual continuing education to STAY an ambassador? Will you have the money to come up with the fees or will you have to resign your ambassadorship? You may not like the fact that some people question them, but are you willing to ask the hard questions when it finally does directly effect you? And how will you feel then if YOU are judged for doing so?

Maybe instead, the next LOGICAL step would be how can we co-exist with our neighbor, rather than exclude our neighbor.  Theyre mission, or so I thought, was to have NH become mainstream.  I dont see how segregation will accomplish that.  Seems to me that they are trying to collect us all into their clutch to prevent any one from being part of mainstream and then straying.

What do you have when you take the halter off?  The TRUTH! 

If you care about something, set it free.  If it comes back, it was meant to be.  If not, it never really belonged to you anyways. 

Pat...Linda....When we were at "liberty" to do as we please, we naturally followed, why are you now trying to force it?

Just remember, while this change may seem benign in the current light, it IS a vision of things to come and the speculated direction of the way it is all heading.  So again, you all go right ahead and swallow THIS pill, forgive ME for saying 

No Thanks, Ill pass.  I just want to learn about horses, without someone trying to put a price on my dedication.


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## aspenglow14 (3 August 2010)

Tongue~n~Cheek - BRAVO!!!!


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## horseaddict (3 August 2010)

Priceless!
If it aint broke dont fix it!


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## Golf Girl (3 August 2010)

baymareb said:



			I don't mean to sound cold - I do understand fear after a fall but at some point, you have to make up your mind to *either do something about it or get out of horses*.  I'm not sure what you expect Parelli to do for this girl but the best thing someone with some fears can do is get on a nice quiet horse and ride.
		
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Why should you 'get out of horses'? You make it sound like it's a bicycle or a car or some other inanimate object. Did it never occur to you that you can still have a relationship with a horse even though you don't ride it?


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## pippinpie (3 August 2010)

I feel a 'Parelliism' coming on here  'Parelli, Way More Than Riding' so so true!


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## Bay_Beasty (3 August 2010)

pippinpie said:



			I feel a 'Parelliism' coming on here  'Parelli, Way More Than Riding' so so true!
		
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Actually LOL!


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## aspenglow14 (3 August 2010)

Golf Girl said:



			Why should you 'get out of horses'? You make it sound like it's a bicycle or a car or some other inanimate object. Did it never occur to you that you can still have a relationship with a horse even though you don't ride it?
		
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Golf Girl - that was my point exactly.  I don't ride mine a lot, but I play with him on the ground some and just enjoy grooming, hand grazing, hugging, talking to him. Spending "undemanding time" with him. 

I learned that from John Lyons a long time ago.  He told a story of a woman he was trying to help with a horse, and wasn't really getting anywhere, then one day she said "but John, do I *have* to ride him?"  He said it stopped him in his tracks because he'd never thought of it that way.  Now he says, it doesn't matter what you do with your horse as long as you enjoy it.  If you never ride it in your life, as long as you're happy doing what you're doing, that's all that matters.  And that is SO true!! 

Thanks for helping to make my point!


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## Bay_Beasty (3 August 2010)

Aspenglow I remember reading about a lady who was disabled in a wheel chair and used NH (not sure if it was PNH but could of been) to work with her Fresians all from the ground. I found a video to watch after and it was magical. Just goes to show that riding isn't everything. I love spending time with my Beasts, and while my back has been bad I have not been able to ride and I have just spent hours and hours fussing Jim and doing a bit of ground work with him. and I loved every minute of it. I always think of riding as the perk, but to me, the whole aspect of the care, I love it all. I have always had the opinion that doing the other stuff, not the riding, is where the relationship is made.


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## Golf Girl (3 August 2010)

bay_beasty said:



			Aspenglow I remember reading about a lady who was disabled in a wheel chair and used NH (not sure if it was PNH but could of been) to work with her Fresians all from the ground. I found a video to watch after and it was magical. Just goes to show that riding isn't everything
		
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That would be Silke Vallentin - she practices PNH. She is amazing.


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## pippinpie (3 August 2010)

Golf Girl said:



			That would be Silke Vallentin - she practices PNH. She is amazing.
		
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She does a bit more than practice PNH she is a 3* instructor : http://instructor.parelli.com/SilkeVallentin


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## Bay_Beasty (3 August 2010)

thanks guys. She is pretty awesome.... in fact its just incredible. only a little bit embarrassed I didn't know she did PNH. But hey, never mind, that was when I was a PNH basher, I have since changed  . thanks for the link Pippinpie.


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## aspenglow14 (6 August 2010)

bay_beastie, I couldn't agree more!  Silke is awesome and proves that anyone can to anything if they just want it bad enough!

I love just being around my horse too - don't have to ride.  And there's absolutely *nothing* more comforting than crying into their neck when something bad happens!  You're right, riding is a great perk, but just a tiny, tiny part of loving and enjoying a horse!


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## naturalgoats (6 August 2010)

T-N-C thank you for this thread. It took me days to read it all but I did and it has been interesting and made me think more deeply about some aspects of Parelli that I haven't questioned before. Please keep posting. I love your well reasoned and obviously well informed opinions.


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## qwertyuiop (6 August 2010)

Who had the brilliant idea of having the BOSJ and a Parelli get-together at the NEC at the same event earlier this year? It was hilarious!

On the 1 side we have:
immaculate hair, manicure, make-up, clothes by Joules, Whittaker, etc. Cigarette optional.

On the other side we have:
hair resembling an explosion in a watch, no make-up, cowboy boots, Parelli-branded clothes and jeans, John Lennon-style round glasses optional.

Have I missed anything?


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## pippinpie (6 August 2010)

Broken_Arrow said:



			Who had the brilliant idea of having the BOSJ and a Parelli get-together at the NEC at the same event earlier this year? It was hilarious!

On the 1 side we have:
immaculate hair, manicure, make-up, clothes by Joules, Whittaker, etc. Cigarette optional.

On the other side we have:
hair resembling an explosion in a watch, no make-up, cowboy boots, Parelli-branded clothes and jeans, John Lennon-style round glasses optional.

Have I missed anything?
		
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How about the Horsemanship.
If I remember rightly James Roberts was wearing a very nice pair of breeches and boots, and so were many of the instructors!


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## qwertyuiop (6 August 2010)

pippinpie said:



			How about the Horsemanship.
If I remember rightly James Roberts was wearing a very nice pair of breeches and boots, and so were many of the instructors! 

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Who? Assuming you are talking about men, that isn't something I would notice...

There were some people wandering around in stetsons. Not normal attire in Birmingham! Do Parellistas have unbreakable heads? Why don't they ever wear helmets?


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## Tinypony (6 August 2010)

Broken_Arrow, that's already been discussed, on either this or the Catwalk thread, and the answer is of course a lot of "Parellistas" wear safe headgear.
If you're part of the Parelli team there is a dress standard.  The jeans are supposed to be clean and tidy, your boots are supposed to be clean and polished, the shirt is supposed to be buttoned properly.  Some of those cowboy hats cost mega bucks of course...   Oh, and I always wore makeup.  My hair does often look like an explosion in a watch, it costs a lot of money to get it looking like that.


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## tongue~n~cheek (7 August 2010)

naturalgoats said:



			T-N-C thank you for this thread. It took me days to read it all but I did and it has been interesting and made me think more deeply about some aspects of Parelli that I haven't questioned before. Please keep posting. I love your well reasoned and obviously well informed opinions. 

Click to expand...

Well thank you of course.  I too, as well as many other parelli people have been questioning alot of stuff lately.  parelli is not the "end all be all" of horsemanship.  it is just ONE way to get there.  Actually I have quite a few posts on the savvy club, of similar style and "info".  I of course rein back on the "questioning" of the all mighty Pat, as I am now tired of hearing how we shouldn't question him.  And there really isn't much for me say here at the moment.  no questions to answer, and no particular subject to talk about that wont just come of as arrogant, wanting to just "hear my self talk".

HOWEVER, as this thread has opened my eyes and exposed me to a few new friends with some interesting info to look into, my journey is starting to take a vastly new direction.  I myself am seriously questioning whether or not I will continue my parelli path WITH the organization.  I see no reason to FUND something that I don't agree with.  Something has just happened to me in my parelli journey this week, that I am waiting for a resolution on.  It is BIG, especially to me.  I was suppose to hear about it today.  I didn't.  So now, I am taking it directly to Pat and Linda this weekend.  I dont' care if I have to stay until the lights go out to get my question answered.  I will.  I cannot share just yet, as I have the info on the savvy forum, and I am not ready to go all Jedi Night on everyone yet.  But I found a bit of a flaw in the system that is NOT fair or right.  I want an answer or I am outta there.  If after all these years with them, if this is the way it will be, then I see no reason to continue.  Anyways, hate to "tease' anyone.  those that know me know how upset I am right now, and I surely feel I may have been punished for this thread, though I have no idea if this thread is the cause, so I cannot accuse anyone one yet of anything.  I have a stack of stuff to hand Linda and Pat and the answer will reveal alot for me, and likely a great many students as well.  I will share if it is not rectified to my satisfaction.  

And THEN....the gloves will be OFF!  For it will not be things the savvy forum will be able to handle.

I cannot thank all of you enough for your support, both here and on the savvy forum.  I know it is alot to read, and few have the time, patience, or worry to read thru it all.  And that is a shame.  I have made a number of new friends across the globe.  I  have no Idea if pat and linda know about this thread, and if so, if it is me.  But I think they should read it too.

If anyone reading this is going to Fresno this weekend, I will be there.  I will be there on monday and that should significantly narrow your choices.  By all means, bring up tongue~n~cheek if you want to them.  I would love to sit back and listen to it!

Again thank you, and sorry for any "tease" here, I just don't want to spout off too soon.


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## tongue~n~cheek (7 August 2010)

Broken_Arrow said:



			Who? Assuming you are talking about men, that isn't something I would notice...

There were some people wandering around in stetsons. Not normal attire in Birmingham! Do Parellistas have unbreakable heads? Why don't they ever wear helmets?
		
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Well, being a american, I am used to plenty if not nearly all, western folks not wearing helmets.  I also wasnt' there in england and have no idea what bosj is, so I can't comment.  at least I am intelligent enough to know it was funny, what ever it was you were saying.

this thread has significant posts regarding helmets, hate to say this, but look through the thread if it is a question you really wanted answered.

I love the Parellista's.  that is a new one.  one that I think I will use
that or Parelli'icous!


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## tongue~n~cheek (7 August 2010)

I have to say this, if you are a Parelli student who wants to ask a question, but afraid to ask it on the savvy forum, go for it....I'm game.

SHOOT


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## qwertyuiop (7 August 2010)

tongue~n~cheek said:



			this thread has significant posts regarding helmets, hate to say this, but look through the thread if it is a question you really wanted answered.
		
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I'm not wading through 11 pages. I value my time more than that!


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## welshwizzard (7 August 2010)

Here you go,this is the parelli statement on helmets!
_Hi .., 
Thank you for taking the time to write us. We understand your views and
concerns. As quoted by the faculty at our ranch: 

You are quite right  helmets are fabulous things and they save many lives. Tragically
though, people who ARE wearing helmets also die or suffer serious head injuries in accidents with horses. 

Our program is intended to address the safety problem at its root  which is
behavioral  rather than address the symptoms of it. Our message is about
developing the relationship with the horse, and the savvy level of the rider, so that unsafe behavior is addressed long before the rider gets on the horse - rather than allowing the unsafe situations to continue to occur and hope that the helmet, body protector, etc, will protect us from the consequences.

The reason you do not see our people wearing helmets is because we try to teach people that rather than be brave because they are wearing a helmet to protect them, they would be better off not riding until their horse is behaving safely.

People have called us brave for not wearing helmets, but we say they are a lot braver than we are. We would not get on their horse until we had addressed the issues that cause it to behave in unsafe ways.

We hope this helps, 
From the Faculty, Parelli Centers_

utter madness!


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## welshwizzard (7 August 2010)

I should add , this thread is well worth a read if you have the time.Thanks TNC


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## bigmuddy11 (11 August 2010)

ok my 2 cents worth on a few of the questions asked 
Ok... I have an actual question about Parelli (which I have never practiced). I understand that a lot of practitioners of Parelli learn the method from DVDs; apart from the potential to reach a wider audience, what are the benefits for a novice horse owner in using a DVD over having an actual instructor to help them? As a Parelli teacher, do you have concerns about those who have learned from the DVD not using the methods 'properly'? This is not meant to be inflammatory, it is a genuine question! 
and 
So my question - if a very key element of successfully using PNH requires a deep understanding of horse body language, why is it marketed at novices?
Surely a novice does not have the ability to react fast enough to small changes in body language and therefore is highly likely to confuse the horse and create stress.

My gut feel after studying PNH for a while was experienced horse peeps dont need it and novices dont have the knowledge to use it safely (horse not human safety). 


I guess i shouldn't teach at primary school then as i am going to be doing my uni course by distance education mostly through the internet? there are lots of ways to get help these days all it takes is asking i find the dvd's very helpful, there are many videos on the website showing horses trying, you are encouraged to look at the videos available.

When the horses are being worked at liberty (I'm thinking particularly of the 2 Friesians that were worked by the lady in the electric wheelchair) why do they have their ears back all the time they are working around her, with their tails swishing... why do they look so angry all the time? I realise they're staying near her of their own volition, but I cannot work out why they do not work like relaxed, happy, ears-forward horses.

That was MY question - they always look really cross and tetchy, Ears back and tail swishing and a definite glint in their eyes which I read as 'Oh for Goodness' sake, go away and leave me alone. I'm sick of this!'

maybe they didn't like each other that day? who knows but they don't always have their ears pinned, i am guessing this is what you meant , here is a link to a youtube vid of the lady in question with her horses at liberty, ears flipping back then forward, but definately not pinned in anger.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-u0diNIq-Z0&feature=related

I would happily adopt Parelli, I just haven't seen any good stuff or benefit to myself or my horses. The only Parelli demo I've seen was performed by some very unhappy horses & they just did circus tricks.

naturally the shows are geared towards entertainment but the ideas behind each movement of the horse can help in many situations in every day life.

I am pretty sure that if he shut up, stopped swinging that damn rope and just talked quietly to her, he'd have a far better shot of getting her comfortable about that trailer. She does not look comfortable at all
Please explain why you would use this method rather than simply speaking calmly to her and encouraging her to investigate the trailer.  

This is a biggy for me   i am a parelli student yes, but would i copy his methods NO , i get really sick of people blaming Pat and or Linda for others mistakes, I didn't see them there holding a gun to the mans head, they didn't force him to do it that way, they give us a roadmap, yes we all get the same roadmap but we all interpret the directions differently and get to the end of our journey from a different path, it is easy to blame " parelli" for this, but you should lay the blame for any abuse at the hands of the person actually doing it 

So to recap- PP kit- £120.
Local tack shop-£20.
Now I am sure there are instructors out there with a brain who do advise you to borrow a DVD/use current common bits and bobs to start with,but all the ones I have come into contact with insist ONLY the branded equipemtn will do,and of course,it can only be bought direct(unless you stalk Ebay for someone chucking it out).
Once again,to me this smacks of money grabbing not "spreading the good word" while covering costs.
again, this is easy, don't like it? DON'T BUY IT. i don't see people complaining about nike, or fender guitars, or expensive cars etc, only those wanting to whinge will do so, some just have to find something to complain about and will no matter what the subject.

4)This is the thing I have most issue with.
Why try to make Parelli methods the only ones people listen to? 
Other methods enjoy equal (if not greater) sucess and are employed day in,day out by many more people around the world.
Any good horseman will understand the need to look at what people are doing,then think about it and decide if it is something usefull.
The attempted removing of that by Parelli instructors is a worry.

Do all instructors do this? have you proof? please don't tar every instructor with the same brush, not everyone is the same.

so there it is, my 2 cents worth  sorry it is so long, but somethings really get my goat up, one of which is blaming innocents for things they haven't done, another is complaining about the cost of things you don't "need" either don't buy it and don't whinge or have fun buying a cheaper copy that can indeed be just as good quality and spend your savings on something else...
one last note though,
when confused about the actions from an instructor or student in one of these shows or on youtube etc, it is easy to percieve something as cruel but without good indepth knowledge about the horse yourself you shouldn't go judging too harshly, just start asking some questions till you are satisfied you understand why even if you don't agree with the methods


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## pippinpie (11 August 2010)

So my question - if a very key element of successfully using PNH requires a deep understanding of horse body language, why is it marketed at novices?
Surely a novice does not have the ability to react fast enough to small changes in body language and therefore is highly likely to confuse the horse and create stress.
		
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I would like to answer this how I see it:

I have never seen any marketing that is aimed at novices! most of the marketing is aimed at any horse person thats wants a better relationship with their horse, that could be: novices who want to learn from scratch a method that they feel suits them, more experienced people who have a problem and would like to know how to achieve a better understanding of why their horse behaves in a certain way or people like me very experienced horse person who saw that there is more much more to learn in the way I could 'be' with my horses. I never though I could change that much that would have such a profound effect on them.
Parelli is for everyone, any level, but only if you are seeking/needing/wanting a change.
You say novices don't have the ability to start PNH, then who can help these people? Parelli is a home study program, supported with instructors and clinics, of course PNH starts with novices we are all novices at doing Parelli! Its a step by step program, I was just as inept as a complete beginner when I started 'wiggling' my rope, I was just as dopey and clumsy at using the carrots stick, if you had seen me starting you would think I was a novice too. 
One of the important points Parelli try to get over to people is that they should 'Pick their Partner, not their poison' so many people have unsuitable horses especially novices, novices having the wrong horse is a disaster waiting to happen in anybodies book, you can't blame PNH for that. If you see people misusing the equipment or methods, it doesn't mean the program is c**p just the people using it in the name of PNH





			My gut feel after studying PNH for a while was experienced horse peeps dont need it and novices dont have the knowledge to use it safely (horse not human safety).
		
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You tried it and it didn't suit you, thats OK


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## Box_Of_Frogs (12 August 2010)

He's rich NOT because his product works but because people desperately want to BELIEVE that it does. Big difference. He's playing on the emotions of decent, ordinary people who are wanting to do right by their horses or who are struggling and out of their depth with a particular problem. He has packaged and glitzed up a beautiful dream, ie do everything that you see done on this cd (NB - he won't actually TELL you how to do it, just show you some end results and tell you how easy it is) and gullible people (me included a few years back) buy into it hoping that it will be a magic cure. It isn't. If all the horse owners who buy his over-priced stuff spent 23 hours a day drilling themselves and their horses, they too would have amazing results, whatever method they used. Remember the old adage: if something looks too good to be true, it ALWAYS is.


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## eahotson (12 August 2010)

I think that saying Pick your partner not your poison is soooo good.Yes,so many novices do have the wrong horse and yes it is a disaster waiting to happen for both parties.


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## Tinypony (12 August 2010)

Broken_Arrow, basically what was said earlier was that whatever the Parelli office might say, many students have enough sense to wear hats.
You may value your time too much to "wade through the thread", but in saying that you are effectively saying that you don't value the time of TIC and others who spent ages painstakingly and politely answering questions asked.  So it's OK for you to demand a reply to a question that has already been asked, and expect kind people to type their answers again, but not OK for you to take the trouble to scan through and see if the reply is already there.  I don't think your time is more valuable than anyone else's to be honest.


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## eahotson (12 August 2010)

Further more, while being firmly in the hat on, chin strap done up corner, I think that the Parellis have a valid point.By THEMSELVES, safety gear will not make you safe.Learning to handle and ride horses safely is at least of equal importance, as is choosing a horse within your competency.


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## Golf Girl (12 August 2010)

Box_Of_Frogs said:



			He's rich NOT because his product works but because people desperately want to BELIEVE that it does. Big difference. He's playing on the emotions of decent, ordinary people who are wanting to do right by their horses or who are struggling and out of their depth with a particular problem. He has packaged and glitzed up a beautiful dream, ie do everything that you see done on this cd (NB - he won't actually TELL you how to do it, just show you some end results and tell you how easy it is) and gullible people (me included a few years back) buy into it hoping that it will be a magic cure. It isn't. If all the horse owners who buy his over-priced stuff spent 23 hours a day drilling themselves and their horses, they too would have amazing results, whatever method they used. Remember the old adage: if something looks too good to be true, it ALWAYS is.
		
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If anyone bought Parelli DVDs and equipment in the hope of achieving 'a quick fix' for a particular problem, they would be very foolish indeed. That's _so_ not what it's about, and I really don't think that it's why the majority of people choose PNH.


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## aspenglow14 (12 August 2010)

Box_Of_Frogs said:



			He's rich NOT because his product works but because people desperately want to BELIEVE that it does. Big difference. He's playing on the emotions of decent, ordinary people who are wanting to do right by their horses or who are struggling and out of their depth with a particular problem. He has packaged and glitzed up a beautiful dream, ie do everything that you see done on this cd (NB - he won't actually TELL you how to do it, just show you some end results and tell you how easy it is) and gullible people (me included a few years back) buy into it hoping that it will be a magic cure. It isn't. If all the horse owners who buy his over-priced stuff spent 23 hours a day drilling themselves and their horses, they too would have amazing results, whatever method they used. Remember the old adage: if something looks too good to be true, it ALWAYS is.
		
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Hmmm ..... wasn't this supposed to be a "non Parelli bashing thread"?????


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## Tinypony (12 August 2010)

It was, wasn't it.  It's like a broken record on these threads sometimes.  It was nice to get away from the same people trotting out the same posts for a while.


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## tongue~n~cheek (14 August 2010)

Wait Wait WAIT a minute here..... this is still good.  I leave for a couple of days and it all goes to #$%^

No I don't think so.  Don't forget regardless, they have a right to thier opinion as well as I/you/we do.  Sure some don't want to take the time to read it.  Oh well....my answer is there, either they go back and read it or they don't.  makes no bones to me.

I am now back in my home world, reconnecting with my parelli friends.  I thought the thread was DEAD......eeek....apparently NOT!

We just need to stay cool, and not let emotions get the better of us.  this is still a good thing. 

NO ONE can take away what happened.  just because someone NEW comes along, that hasn't read it all, doesn't take away from those who did.

so lets just keep our heads about our selves here.

Who cares if someone hates parelli.  they have thier reasons, and are entitled to them, regardless of the fact that we disagree.  getting defensive about it will not solve it.  they asked a question, I answered.  it is up to them what they do with it.  it doesn't hurt my feelings if they still disagree, and it shouldn't hurt anyone elses.

great article....nothing to brace against.....look it up savvy people


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## tongue~n~cheek (14 August 2010)

Broken_Arrow said:



			I'm not wading through 11 pages. I value my time more than that!
		
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your porogative.  I dont' know "exactly" why they dont' wear helmets, never asked them.  the did issue a statement, already posted a number of times, take it as you will.  I don't think it is the most brilliant thing ever written.  so what ever flack they get over it, it is up to them to answer for it, not me.


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## tongue~n~cheek (14 August 2010)

welshwizzard said:



			Here you go,this is the parelli statement on helmets!
_Hi .., 
Thank you for taking the time to write us. We understand your views and
concerns. As quoted by the faculty at our ranch: 

You are quite right  helmets are fabulous things and they save many lives. Tragically
though, people who ARE wearing helmets also die or suffer serious head injuries in accidents with horses. 

Our program is intended to address the safety problem at its root  which is
behavioral  rather than address the symptoms of it. Our message is about
developing the relationship with the horse, and the savvy level of the rider, so that unsafe behavior is addressed long before the rider gets on the horse - rather than allowing the unsafe situations to continue to occur and hope that the helmet, body protector, etc, will protect us from the consequences.

The reason you do not see our people wearing helmets is because we try to teach people that rather than be brave because they are wearing a helmet to protect them, they would be better off not riding until their horse is behaving safely.

People have called us brave for not wearing helmets, but we say they are a lot braver than we are. We would not get on their horse until we had addressed the issues that cause it to behave in unsafe ways.

We hope this helps, 
From the Faculty, Parelli Centers_

utter madness!
		
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can't disagree


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## tongue~n~cheek (14 August 2010)

pippinpie said:



			I would like to answer this how I see it:

I have never seen any marketing that is aimed at novices! most of the marketing is aimed at any horse person thats wants a better relationship with their horse, that could be: novices who want to learn from scratch a method that they feel suits them, more experienced people who have a problem and would like to know how to achieve a better understanding of why their horse behaves in a certain way or people like me very experienced horse person who saw that there is more much more to learn in the way I could 'be' with my horses. I never though I could change that much that would have such a profound effect on them.
Parelli is for everyone, any level, but only if you are seeking/needing/wanting a change.
You say novices don't have the ability to start PNH, then who can help these people? Parelli is a home study program, supported with instructors and clinics, of course PNH starts with novices we are all novices at doing Parelli! Its a step by step program, I was just as inept as a complete beginner when I started 'wiggling' my rope, I was just as dopey and clumsy at using the carrots stick, if you had seen me starting you would think I was a novice too. 
One of the important points Parelli try to get over to people is that they should 'Pick their Partner, not their poison' so many people have unsuitable horses especially novices, novices having the wrong horse is a disaster waiting to happen in anybodies book, you can't blame PNH for that. If you see people misusing the equipment or methods, it doesn't mean the program is c**p just the people using it in the name of PNH



You tried it and it didn't suit you, thats OK
		
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Well said.  just want to add, with or without parelli, novices are in over thier head.  IF they had the good sense to get live instruction, or had live instruction available, they likely would already be using it.

So parelli fills a gap, and MANY novices get not only SAFE using the program, but find a great degree of success.  not everyone does, but not every novice finds success with live instruction either.  be it parelli or traditional.

fact is horses are a dangerous sport no matter who you are, how great or talented you are, even olympians get hurt.  so i don't think the parelli program has cornered the market for causing people to get hurt.


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## tongue~n~cheek (14 August 2010)

welshwizzard said:



			I should add , this thread is well worth a read if you have the time.Thanks TNC

Click to expand...

Thank you


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## tongue~n~cheek (14 August 2010)

Box_Of_Frogs said:



			He's rich NOT because his product works but because people desperately want to BELIEVE that it does. Big difference. He's playing on the emotions of decent, ordinary people who are wanting to do right by their horses or who are struggling and out of their depth with a particular problem. He has packaged and glitzed up a beautiful dream, ie do everything that you see done on this cd (NB - he won't actually TELL you how to do it, just show you some end results and tell you how easy it is) and gullible people (me included a few years back) buy into it hoping that it will be a magic cure. It isn't. If all the horse owners who buy his over-priced stuff spent 23 hours a day drilling themselves and their horses, they too would have amazing results, whatever method they used. Remember the old adage: if something looks too good to be true, it ALWAYS is.
		
Click to expand...

You obviously have tried the program, and it obviously didnt' work for you.  it is not for everyone, and everyone is entitled to share thier experiences.  at least you can say that you tried it, and it didnt' work for you.  unlike many people who have NOT tried it, who still care to offer an opinion on the program.  many people find success and many don't.  it is good for the organisation to hear that.  your opinion is just as valuable as those that have great success stories.

I often wondered myself, if MY success with the program was due to my already having a wealth of knowlege prior to the program.  I can say that there are many times, i was faced in a situation doing the program that I had my previous experience to keep me safe.  it has ALWAYS been on my mind, and I try to talk to alot of novice people to gain thier perspective on the program.  as part of my experiment of trying the program myself, one of my criteria for myself was to do it alone with NO help.  either it is or isn't a home study program.  i can say that I only once got help for a particular task that i could not resolve on my own.  other than that, i have done it on my own, like many people do.  i have had profound success with the program, like many people do. even novices on thier own with no help.

to each his own.  it either will work for you or it wont.  and that should be fine for anyone who thinks it is ok to judge you for stating your experience.


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## tongue~n~cheek (14 August 2010)

eahotson said:



			I think that saying Pick your partner not your poison is soooo good.Yes,so many novices do have the wrong horse and yes it is a disaster waiting to happen for both parties.
		
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yes many people, with or without parelli, are over faced by choosing the wrong horse.  i have seen more people, novices, hurt in this situation without parelli than with.  same goes for the horse.  many horses SUFFER greatly at a novices hand, at least parelli teaches kindness and fairness to the horse.


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