# Council have just been round - Stable tax



## Asha (15 February 2017)

Just a warning to all you lovely people who have the horses at home.

Our local council sent a letter last week saying they had the right to come onto our property and inspect our property. To asses for non domestic rates on our stables.

Our stables are 11 metres from our back door, and basically touch the garage. the arena was put in the garden opposite.

Apparently this is not within the curtilage and we are liable for these rates, back dated to 2015.

The tick list they have to determine rateable value is extensive, and ranges from WC/staff room/muck heap/lunge ring/walker gallops/ laundry etc etc.They took photos /measurements of my tack room / feed room

They even checked the fields to see if we where using them as jump paddocks.

I'm going to get advice on this, I'm not happy. the buildings where there when we bought the farm, all we have done is add the internal stables. It just feels like a money making scam.

Any advice lovely HHO ?


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## popsdosh (15 February 2017)

Asha said:



			Just a warning to all you lovely people who have the horses at home.

Our local council sent a letter last week saying they had the right to come onto our property and inspect our property. To asses for non domestic rates on our stables.

Our stables are 11 metres from our back door, and basically touch the garage. the arena was put in the garden opposite.

Apparently this is not within the curtilage and we are liable for these rates, back dated to 2015.

The tick list they have to determine rateable value is extensive, and ranges from WC/staff room/muck heap/lunge ring/walker gallops/ laundry etc etc.They took photos /measurements of my tack room / feed room

They even checked the fields to see if we where using them as jump paddocks.

I'm going to get advice on this, I'm not happy. the buildings where there when we bought the farm, all we have done is add the internal stables. It just feels like a money making scam.

Any advice lovely HHO ?
		
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I think they have just caught up with you ! nothing you have said suggest they are in the wrong! I guess you have upset somebody who has reported you maybe? if they deem them not to be in your curtilage potentially you have a planning issue as well. Did you apply for change of use when you moved in as you would need to to put internals in existing agric buildings. The reason they were looking for evidence of schooling is because that would then become rateable.
Just a word of warning rates and planning are seperate depts however they talk to each other so you may get another letter.


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## Sugar_and_Spice (15 February 2017)

The councils have had their budgets cut like everywhere else.  Now they're looking to crack down on things they previously overlooked, to help make up the shortfall in funds.  If you find out where the curtilage of your house is, you might have the option to put stables within that area if it's suitable, returning the other building to it's original state to avoid some of the tax costs.  I'd find out whether it's worth doing first though, in case the amount you save isn't worth building new stables for.


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## Asha (15 February 2017)

popsdosh said:



			I think they have just caught up with you ! nothing you have said suggest they are in the wrong! I guess you have upset somebody who has reported you maybe? if they deem them not to be in your curtilage potentially you have a planning issue as well. Did you apply for change of use when you moved in as you would need to to put internals in existing agric buildings. The reason they were looking for evidence of schooling is because that would then become rateable.
Just a word of warning rates and planning are seperate depts however they talk to each other so you may get another letter.
		
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All planning done properly, have approval for everything. They 'found' us, as we have recently put another application in for a hay barn, council came round to see if it was up so they could charge us more rates. It not up yet, then we get this. 

If we removed the internal stables, we wouldn't have to pay anything. Its bonkers, especially as they are so close to the house


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## Asha (15 February 2017)

Sugar_and_Spice said:



			The councils have had their budgets cut like everywhere else.  Now they're looking to crack down on things they previously overlooked, to help make up the shortfall in funds.  If you find out where the curtilage of your house is, you might have the option to put stables within that area if it's suitable, returning the other building to it's original state to avoid some of the tax costs.  I'd find out whether it's worth doing first though, in case the amount you save isn't worth building new stables for.
		
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I did ask, if I have to pay these rates could I run a business to help pay for it. So this will be another call to the planners.


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## DD (15 February 2017)

can you remove the internal stables?


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## cobgoblin (15 February 2017)

Downton Dame said:



			can you remove the internal stables?
		
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This^^^

Remove the stables and put horses loose in the barn.
Are they trying to charge for the arena?


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## popsdosh (15 February 2017)

I would just cool off a bit as im guessing your bill wont be that large and if business would certainly be below the threshold to pay anything. How many stables are there ?
Non domestic rates are Business rates so you will qualify for small business rate relief which means you pay nothing if your rateable value is below £12000 under the new system. So rather than get wound up dont do anything until you actually get your rateable value through . I did a calculation a few weeks ago and most yards under 30 boxes would have nothing to pay. It is all worked out on nationally agreed tables for equestrian properties.


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## Asha (15 February 2017)

Downton Dame said:



			can you remove the internal stables?
		
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I can yes. I will see how much they want first.

I'm just shocked at all the questions, and the fact they took photos of inside the tack room / feed room. Feels invasive


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## Asha (15 February 2017)

cobgoblin said:



			This^^^

Remove the stables and put horses loose in the barn.
Are they trying to charge for the arena?
		
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I imagine they will be. They had a check list to work out the value, so included everything ,included my electric shower even asked about a solarium. 



popsdosh said:



			I would just cool off a bit as im guessing your bill wont be that large and if business would certainly be below the threshold to pay anything. How many stables are there ?
		
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They put us down as 4  - 12 x 12, and 2 foaling boxes.

I do need to calm down you are spot on, I use to pay rates on my other yard, but that was 2 miles up the road, I just expected this to be exempt as its so close to the house. A bit miffed


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## Goldenstar (15 February 2017)

You need to appeal you will need a rates expert to help you .
I would ask a local land agent they will know some one .
Or google equine rates specialist that will probably bring specialists up .
You don't need to accept their opinion that your stables are outside the curtiage get some proper advice .


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## popsdosh (15 February 2017)

Goldenstar said:



			You need to appeal you will need a rates expert to help you .
I would ask a local land agent they will know some one .
Or google equine rates specialist that will probably bring specialists up .
You don't need to accept their opinion that your stables are outside the curtiage get some proper advice .
		
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Whats the point in spending money as with with what has been described they wont have to pay anyhow and it wont be overturned as the stables are in an agricultural building that would have always been outside the curtilage of a dwelling house


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## cobgoblin (15 February 2017)

It would be interesting to know what they are defining as curtilage. Historical maps ..even OS maps may help to prove where the curtilage limits lie. 11m is very close to the house.


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## popsdosh (15 February 2017)

Asha said:



			I can yes. I will see how much they want first.

I'm just shocked at all the questions, and the fact they took photos of inside the tack room / feed room. Feels invasive
		
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They are only doing their job for other tax payers !


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## popsdosh (15 February 2017)

cobgoblin said:



			It would be interesting to know what they are defining as curtilage. Historical maps ..even OS maps may help to prove where the curtilage limits lie. 11m is very close to the house.
		
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We have a farm building that nearly adjoins the house it is not within the house curtilage.


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## Asha (15 February 2017)

cobgoblin said:



			It would be interesting to know what they are defining as curtilage. Historical maps ..even OS maps may help to prove where the curtilage limits lie. 11m is very close to the house.
		
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ive just had a chat with the legal chap at BHS

The stables, all though only 11m away are in a former cow shed, this has an agri classification. So by that he reckons will be outside the curtilage, the arena, however was built opposite on part of the garden, so may be worth digging a bit more.

I feel a bit of a dunce, as had just assumed as the building was so close we would be ok. Should have looked into it more.


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## meleeka (15 February 2017)

I'm not sure on the rules regarding rates. Do they apply only to land attached to the house?


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## Asha (15 February 2017)

popsdosh said:



			They are only doing their job for other tax payers !
		
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taking photos of my tack room is in no ones interest, especially as I hadn't cleared up after a mammoth tack cleaning weekend.


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## popsdosh (15 February 2017)

meleeka said:



			I'm not sure on the rules regarding rates. Do they apply only to land attached to the house?
		
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We are talking business rates or AKA non domestic rates.


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## Asha (15 February 2017)

meleeka said:



			I'm not sure on the rules regarding rates. Do they apply only to land attached to the house?
		
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they where only interested in the buildings etc, they didn't want to know how much acreage we had, only wanted to check we didn't have a gallops / xc field installed


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## popsdosh (15 February 2017)

Asha said:



			taking photos of my tack room is in no ones interest, especially as I hadn't cleared up after a mammoth tack cleaning weekend.
		
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I know but they usually just take them as a reminder to show the use at the time as they are valued differently to stables . Then if things get messy they have the evidence,its nothing sinister although to you it may feel like it.


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## popsdosh (15 February 2017)

Asha said:



			they where only interested in the buildings etc, they didn't want to know how much acreage we had, only wanted to check we didn't have a gallops / xc field installed
		
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Thats because the land is not rateable, only valued if it is used for anything other than grazing


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## popsdosh (15 February 2017)

When they send your first bill it should have details on how to claim the small business rate relief with it.


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## Asha (15 February 2017)

The valuations officer is going to ring me tomorrow with the verdict, so at least I don't have long to wait.


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## DD (15 February 2017)

Asha do please keep us informed, this is a very worrying development.


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## Goldenstar (15 February 2017)

popsdosh said:



			They are only doing their job for other tax payers !
		
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What rot .
Buisness rates should only be levied against income earning buisnesses .
It's not rates it's an envy tax .


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## cobgoblin (15 February 2017)

They changed it from business rates to non-domestic so they could collect more money!


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## Asha (15 February 2017)

Goldenstar said:



			What rot .
Buisness rates should only be levied against income earning buisnesses .
It's not rates it's an envy tax .
		
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It's certainly bizarre. If I took my internal stables out of this barn, and built some new ones less than a 1m to the left of he arena , which would look awful I would be in the middle of my current rather small garden, and then be exempt. How does that work ?

I will post a photo of it to show you what I mean , be gentle we are still going through renovations !
The valuations officer agreed


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## pennyturner (15 February 2017)

I share your outrage Asha.  There's something just not British about these goons interfering in your private enjoyment of your own home.   

I think you should start a (very badly operated) business, ensuring that this and most of your other equine expenses create trading loss to offset against your other earned income.  Who knows, you might even end up in front


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## Asha (15 February 2017)

Just so you can see how close it is to my house 

If we out a new block against the wooden fence, and put some sheep in the argi building, that would be ok.


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## Asha (15 February 2017)

Downton Dame said:



			Asha do please keep us informed, this is a very worrying development.
		
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I will let you know tomorrow.



pennyturner said:



			I share your outrage Asha.  There's something just not British about these goons interfering in your private enjoyment of your own home.   

I think you should start a (very badly operated) business, ensuring that this and most of your other equine expenses create trading loss to offset against your other earned income.  Who knows, you might even end up in front 

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I'm going to set up a badly run DIY yard, and offer no turnout. Think that might just do it !


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## Tiddlypom (15 February 2017)

Eep, closely following. 

Think we are in the same local authority as the OP.


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## Equi (15 February 2017)

My house was a large equine business and we had to prove that we were no longer one. They did a few inspections and the fact I had one old
Mini bobbling about proved we were not making any sort of money from horses lol 

This was the water board by the way, not rates. 

Hope it all works out for you.


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## Apercrumbie (15 February 2017)

Also closely following - I think many will be caught out by this!


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## popsdosh (15 February 2017)

Goldenstar said:



			What rot .
Buisness rates should only be levied against income earning buisnesses .
It's not rates it's an envy tax .
		
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Its not business rates anymore its had a change of name because of the misunderstandings.  I have said many times why find a way round them(especially if it is going to cost money) when you wont need to pay them full stop !  im sorry but the small business exemption which this will qualify for was made permanent in the last budget. They are not singling out just people with horses .


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## sywell (15 February 2017)

I have a letter from Brandon Lewis when he was the Minister say your curtilage is the boundary of your garden


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## DabDab (15 February 2017)

popsdosh said:



			Its not business rates anymore its had a change of name because of the misunderstandings.  I have said many times why find a way round them(especially if it is going to cost money) when you wont need to pay them full stop !  im sorry but the small business exemption which this will qualify for was made permanent in the last budget. They are not singling out just people with horses .
		
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Well they kind of are - if they're saying no stables in the barn but sheep in there would be fine...


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## Goldenstar (15 February 2017)

popsdosh said:



			Its not business rates anymore its had a change of name because of the misunderstandings.  I have said many times why find a way round them(especially if it is going to cost money) when you wont need to pay them full stop !  im sorry but the small business exemption which this will qualify for was made permanent in the last budget. They are not singling out just people with horses .
		
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So who else are they singling out !
People with boats in sheds perhaps ?


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## Pedantic (15 February 2017)

Goldenstar said:



			What rot .
Buisness rates should only be levied against income earning buisnesses .
It's not rates it's an envy tax .
		
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Yep


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## Fools Motto (15 February 2017)

sywell said:



			I have a letter from Brandon Lewis when he was the Minister say your curtilage is the boundary of your garden
		
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If this is true, take down your garden fence so the stables become your garden?


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## tda (15 February 2017)

if you can look at your original deeds, it should clearly see what is your curtilage (usually your garden) if its within that area then I think they will be hard pressed to charge you rates, 
if your barns are actually in the field next door to your garden, regardless of how close, then possibly the council might have a case


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## Goldenstar (15 February 2017)

And if they cold call on you can refuse them admittance and arrange for a date in the future when you have taken advice or have representation present .
They can only take photos with your permission I would not give it I would not want pictures of the contents of my tack room lying around a council office .


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## honetpot (15 February 2017)

This could be me. I have a disused agricultural barn that I have Lodden stables in, its about 24ft from the house. When we bought it there was no garden fence so now we have sheep fencing to keep the dogs in but the barns on the other side of it now.
  When we bought this place I was worried about rates and was told there was non to pay as they were agricultural, and we have never had to pay them. 
   If they  want the money we will try and get permitted development on the lot and pull a few down, there are a lot of outbuildings.


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## Goldenstar (15 February 2017)

honetpot said:



			This could be me. I have a disused agricultural barn that I have Lodden stables in, its about 24ft from the house. When we bought it there was no garden fence so now we have sheep fencing to keep the dogs in but the barns on the other side of it now.
  When we bought this place I was worried about rates and was told there was non to pay as they were agricultural, and we have never had to pay them. 
   If they  want the money we will try and get permitted development on the lot and pull a few down, there are a lot of outbuildings.
		
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Take advice .
There are rules to give relief for disused buildings or stick some sheep hurdles and some poohy straw in them .


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## cobgoblin (15 February 2017)

OP can your horses be seen from the road?...I was just wondering how they knew to pick on you.


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## Asha (15 February 2017)

cobgoblin said:



			OP can your horses be seen from the road?...I was just wondering how they knew to pick on you.
		
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We put a planning application in for a hay barn. One day a local officer knocked on my door and wanted to see if we had put it up . We hadn't, but he noticed the stables and arena ( we have planning for everything.  But, the officer who came today had plenty of appointments in the local area to inspect properties. So perhaps they are going through the planning applications . Also in the farmers guardian there is a piece on business rates. Apparently now they have the decision on brexit out of the way they are clamping down on it


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## Asha (15 February 2017)

Fools Motto said:



			If this is true, take down your garden fence so the stables become your garden?
		
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The fence onto my garden is actually the arena fence. The arena was part of the garden. The barns where there before. When we moved in they where rat infested and run down. 1  old  cattle shed and  1 milking parlour. The milking parlour was horrendous, and was made of asbestos, we got repair and renew for that. All the neighbours have been delighted with what we have done as they where an eyesore.

So, if we had left them as is, and just put up some cheap wooden stables at the end of the garden we wouldn't have this issue


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## Asha (15 February 2017)

honetpot said:



			This could be me. I have a disused agricultural barn that I have Lodden stables in, its about 24ft from the house. When we bought it there was no garden fence so now we have sheep fencing to keep the dogs in but the barns on the other side of it now.
  When we bought this place I was worried about rates and was told there was non to pay as they were agricultural, and we have never had to pay them. 
   If they  want the money we will try and get permitted development on the lot and pull a few down, there are a lot of outbuildings.
		
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That's what we where told. But the minute you put horses in them, the classification changes and they become equestrian as opposed to agri.


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## Asha (15 February 2017)

Goldenstar said:



			And if they cold call on you can refuse them admittance and arrange for a date in the future when you have taken advice or have representation present .
They can only take photos with your permission I would not give it I would not want pictures of the contents of my tack room lying around a council office .
		
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I stopped her taking some angles as it showed all my tack. The letter telling us they where coming also lays out the fact they have the right to force entry, all very heavy handed and unpleasant


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## Asha (15 February 2017)

tda said:



			if you can look at your original deeds, it should clearly see what is your curtilage (usually your garden) if its within that area then I think they will be hard pressed to charge you rates, 
if your barns are actually in the field next door to your garden, regardless of how close, then possibly the council might have a case
		
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I will do this on appeal depending on what the bill is. Thanks


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## cobgoblin (15 February 2017)

Asha said:



			I stopped her taking some angles as it showed all my tack. The letter telling us they where coming also lays out the fact they have the right to force entry, all very heavy handed and unpleasant
		
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I think I would check about the forced entry....I suspect they can only use that legally if you have actually refused to make an appointment.


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## Goldenstar (15 February 2017)

Asha said:



			I stopped her taking some angles as it showed all my tack. The letter telling us they where coming also lays out the fact they have the right to force entry, all very heavy handed and unpleasant
		
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They do not have the right to enter it was removed from them some time ago I had a look on the government website .
It's quite clear they can't enter without permission and they can't take photos without permission however you do have to agree to them entering at an agreed time .
They can't enter without the householder giving permission so if say the groom is there they can say no I haven't the right to let you do that and they must leave .


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## Goldenstar (15 February 2017)

It's the rating manual Volume 3 section 6 point 4 , point 15 deals with photographs .


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## popsdosh (15 February 2017)

Asha said:



			I will do this on appeal depending on what the bill is. Thanks
		
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I promise you there wont be one once you claim the small business relief . I think this has been handled badly but what they told you about forced entry is correct for non domestic property but I agree heavy handed . I cant really see why some are advocating being so obstructive.
Did they explain how they work out your rateable Value. They dont just pluck a figure from mid air I have the rating tables somewhere . Off the top of my head each stable will be between £350-400 Tack store rooms £20m2  outdoor School £1.50 m2 you can do your own maths but if the total is below 12,000 there is nothing to pay.


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## cobgoblin (15 February 2017)

Do you not have to have a small business to claim the relief? I thought these were private horses.


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## popsdosh (15 February 2017)

Check others local to you. 

www.tax.service.gov.uk/view-my-valuation/search

Put in advanced search choose your billing authority then put in special code 236 it should bring up equestrian facilities close to you.


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## popsdosh (15 February 2017)

cobgoblin said:



			Do you not have to have a small business to claim the relief? I thought these were private horses.
		
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It should make no difference as the rating system is the same one ie non domestic.


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## Micky (16 February 2017)

It's not really been stated whether this is a livery yard or a private my own horses yard and house....if it's a livery yard, then you will pay business rates ( or whatever name they are going by now) and claim back....it is a business the same as a shop on your high st... and you must log/apply for change of use from agri to equestrian ...


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## Cahill (16 February 2017)

Fools Motto said:



			If this is true, take down your garden fence so the stables become your garden?
		
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i do not think it is as simple as that? you have to get pp for change of use to garden or every one would extend their gardens and claim permitted rights on it.


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## Asha (16 February 2017)

Micky said:



			It's not really been stated whether this is a livery yard or a private my own horses yard and house....if it's a livery yard, then you will pay business rates ( or whatever name they are going by now) and claim back....it is a business the same as a shop on your high st... and you must log/apply for change of use from agri to equestrian ...
		
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Its not a livery, our private home.


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## Goldenstar (16 February 2017)

popsdosh said:



			I promise you there wont be one once you claim the small business relief . I think this has been handled badly but what they told you about forced entry is correct for non domestic property but I agree heavy handed . I cant really see why some are advocating being so obstructive.
Did they explain how they work out your rateable Value. They dont just pluck a figure from mid air I have the rating tables somewhere . Off the top of my head each stable will be between £350-400 Tack store rooms £20m2  outdoor School £1.50 m2 you can do your own maths but if the total is below 12,000 there is nothing to pay.
		
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There's nothing to pay until some government removes the small buisiness relief then it could be very expensive .
OP view is her property is domestic and therefore she can refuse entry .


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## popsdosh (16 February 2017)

Goldenstar said:



			There's nothing to pay until some government removes the small buisiness relief then it could be very expensive .
OP view is her property is domestic and therefore she can refuse entry .
		
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The valuation office is obviously taking a different view as its outside the curtilage( which it is). I suspect the letter was a standard one warning of what may happen if entry is refused . I assume on this occasion they did not turn up with a police snatch squad.. All they do if you do refuse entry is they will assess what they think is there send you a valuation well in excess and then leave you to argue it down which will involve them being allowed access so why not play ball in the first place and not Pee them off.

As far as im aware the major change last year regarding business rates was to set the small business rate relief in stone as it had been variable up to then. Im guessing but I doubt the valuation will be more than 4.5k in which case comfortably exempt.


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## popsdosh (16 February 2017)

Goldenstar said:



			There's nothing to pay until some government removes the small buisiness relief then it could be very expensive .
OP view is her property is domestic and therefore she can refuse entry .
		
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Can I just suggest that maybe this is the best option for the OP because if the house banding was altered because of the facilities which it easily could they would definitely be paying a lot more.


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## Asha (16 February 2017)

popsdosh said:



			Check others local to you. 

www.tax.service.gov.uk/view-my-valuation/search

Put in advanced search choose your billing authority then put in special code 236 it should bring up equestrian facilities close to you.
		
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Thanks for that, its a real eye opener. Looks as though an awful lot of equestrian centres are in for a rate rise this year. They have published current ( 2016 valuations) and new for 2017, there is a heck of a jump up for some. If you take Somerford as an example going from £47k up to £68k. Id be very interested to know how they come to those decisions. Given that the major improvements where done before the London Olympics

There are no yards listed in my neighbourhood, however in my area there are all the local livery yards/equestrian centres. I cant see how I fit in with them.


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## Asha (16 February 2017)

popsdosh said:



			The valuation office is obviously taking a different view as its outside the curtilage( which it is). I suspect the letter was a standard one warning of what may happen if entry is refused . I assume on this occasion they did not turn up with a police snatch squad.. All they do if you do refuse entry is they will assess what they think is there send you a valuation well in excess and then leave you to argue it down which will involve them being allowed access so why not play ball in the first place and not Pee them off.

As far as im aware the major change last year regarding business rates was to set the small business rate relief in stone as it had been variable up to then. Im guessing but I doubt the valuation will be more than 4.5k in which case comfortably exempt.
		
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I hope you are right, should find out soon


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## popsdosh (16 February 2017)

Asha said:



			Thanks for that, its a real eye opener. Looks as though an awful lot of equestrian centres are in for a rate rise this year. They have published current ( 2016 valuations) and new for 2017, there is a heck of a jump up for some. If you take Somerford as an example going from £47k up to £68k. Id be very interested to know how they come to those decisions. Given that the major improvements where done before the London Olympics

There are no yards listed in my neighbourhood, however in my area there are all the local livery yards/equestrian centres. I cant see how I fit in with them.
		
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There has not been a revaluation since 2010( before olympics) so Somerford will only just be aware of how it will hit them . The new 2017 figures are from the 2015 revaluation which only takes effect from april. 
The local livery yards etc will give you how the local valuation office values facilities so an overall idea of where you may be.


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## Asha (16 February 2017)

popsdosh said:



			There has not been a revaluation since 2010( before olympics) so Somerford will only just be aware of how it will hit them . The new 2017 figures are from the 2015 revaluation which only takes effect from april. 
The local livery yards etc will give you how the local valuation office values facilities so an overall idea of where you may be.
		
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Ive just checked a friend of mines livery yard, back in 2011 it was given a value of £6.4k, current is £8.6k, 2017 to be £14k. They have made some improvements, but the loose boxes have stayed the same. The loose box element  has gone from £4k in 2011 to  £5k to 2017 £9,375. A jump from £200/sqm to £375/sqm !!

My concern now, is that I may get small business relief for ever, but with the way they are rapidly revaluing the looseboxes , in a few years I may well have to pay.


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## popsdosh (16 February 2017)

Asha said:



			Ive just checked a friend of mines livery yard, back in 2011 it was given a value of £6.4k, current is £8.6k, 2017 to be £14k. They have made some improvements, but the loose boxes have stayed the same. The loose box element  has gone from £4k in 2011 to  £5k to 2017 £9,375. A jump from £200/sqm to £375/sqm !!

My concern now, is that I may get small business relief for ever, but with the way they are rapidly revaluing the looseboxes , in a few years I may well have to pay.
		
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Just to put your mind slightly at ease the box figure is per box not per m2 .I know thats not easily understood from just seeing it . The figures are related to what they feel would be a market rent for the facilities and to be fair most boxes you would expect to rent for well in excess of £375/annum. When you see the total the actual rates you pay are approx half that figure as the current poundage is around 49p However anything under 12000 you should be able to claim relief. It was definitley business rates they were assessing and not a domestic revaluation?


I bet you have been looking for the ones that are not paying ,it can be an eye opener


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## RunToEarth (16 February 2017)

Most LA planning departments have no idea what a curtilage is - it's open to interpretation to a degree. I would read some of the pieces Martin Goodall has done about this as they are fairly relevant to you: 

http://planninglawblog.blogspot.co.uk/2011/01/curtilage-confusion.html


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## horselady (16 February 2017)

Asha said:



			I stopped her taking some angles as it showed all my tack. The letter telling us they where coming also lays out the fact they have the right to force entry, all very heavy handed and unpleasant
		
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If someone did this to me it would feel like a huge invasion of privacy. Your tack room has your property in it and you own it. Not sure that I would like someone to be taking pictures showing my tack.


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## popsdosh (16 February 2017)

RunToEarth said:



			Most LA planning departments have no idea what a curtilage is - it's open to interpretation to a degree. I would read some of the pieces Martin Goodall has done about this as they are fairly relevant to you: 

http://planninglawblog.blogspot.co.uk/2011/01/curtilage-confusion.html

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Yes indeed the way of assessing it(if undetermined) in the valution office manual is really a work of art so open to interpretation.
However I think in your proffessional capacity you would agree that stables within what was a cowshed are unlikely to be considered within the house curtilage


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## Asha (16 February 2017)

popsdosh said:



			Just to put your mind slightly at ease the box figure is per box not per m2 .I know thats not easily understood from just seeing it . The figures are related to what they feel would be a market rent for the facilities and to be fair most boxes you would expect to rent for well in excess of £375/annum. When you see the total the actual rates you pay are approx half that figure as the current poundage is around 49p However anything under 12000 you should be able to claim relief. It was definitley business rates they were assessing and not a domestic revaluation?


I bet you have been looking for the ones that are not paying ,it can be an eye opener

Click to expand...

Definitely business rates, as they sent a photocopy of a leaflet about it, and yes a real eye opener. No mention of the yard I owned previously that had to pay, which I thought was strange, just actual real businesses


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## popsdosh (16 February 2017)

horselady said:



			If someone did this to me it would feel like a huge invasion of privacy. Your tack room has your property in it and you own it. Not sure that I would like someone to be taking pictures showing my tack.
		
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The problem is the Valuation office is an agency of HMRC who have powers in excess of what the Police have.


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## Asha (16 February 2017)

popsdosh said:



			The problem is the Valuation office is an agency of HMRC who have powers in excess of what the Police have.
		
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Come on fess up, do you work for them ?


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## popsdosh (16 February 2017)

Asha said:



			Come on fess up, do you work for them ?
		
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God no just had to deal with them.


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## ROMANY 1959 (16 February 2017)

A yard I left last may never paid rates as it was valued at £2300 so it came under the £12000 cap and claimed back... I've just looked today and it's still the same... so when the new YO insinuated the livery needed to go up cos the rates were going up..was she telling porkies?  Most of the liveries have left now , and there are only 3 left there from 12


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## Asha (16 February 2017)

So, an update. The valuation is £5k, so under the threshold, for now anyway !


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## cobgoblin (16 February 2017)

Asha said:



			So, an update. The valuation is £5k, so under the threshold, for now anyway !
		
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Do you agree with that? It seems quite high unless you have a lot of boxes....I presume they haven't included the arena that's in your garden.


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## popsdosh (16 February 2017)

Asha said:



			So, an update. The valuation is £5k, so under the threshold, for now anyway !
		
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Does that include the new barn?


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## Asha (16 February 2017)

cobgoblin said:



			Do you agree with that? It seems quite high unless you have a lot of boxes....I presume they haven't included the arena that's in your garden.
		
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popsdosh said:



			Does that include the new barn?
		
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I'm not sure what it includes yet, I'm hoping to get all that info when I get the formal letter

From looking at others, I reckon it includes the boxes, arena, muck heap, tack room and feed room.


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## cobgoblin (16 February 2017)

You have to wonder at a country that taxes a muckheap!


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## alainax (16 February 2017)

Asha said:



			So, an update. The valuation is £5k, so under the threshold, for now anyway !
		
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I feel relief for you! 

I heard on the radio today a hotelier whose rates are £260k pa has been told they are now going to be £350k pa. 100k a year, just like that. The sad thing is for businesses at least, it will most likely mean jobs will be lost.


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## Slightly Foxed (16 February 2017)

cobgoblin said:



			Do you not have to have a small business to claim the relief? I thought these were private horses.
		
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That's what I thought.


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## Cecile (16 February 2017)

cobgoblin said:



			You have to wonder at a country that taxes a muckheap!
		
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Oh my goodness, that did make me laugh, thank you!
What do they say......... where there's muck there is brass...... or some such thing


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## case895 (16 February 2017)

Asha said:



			I can yes. I will see how much they want first.

I'm just shocked at all the questions, and the fact they took photos of inside the tack room / feed room. Feels invasive
		
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Why did you let them in and let them take photographs? They are the council, not the National Crime Agency or UK Border Force?

If they roll up at your gates, don't tell them your name, don't confirm the address, don't let therm photograph you and certainly don't let them in.

I think I'd act out a scene from Deliverance if they turned up at my door.
"Are you X? We're from the council. Can we come in please?"
"You got a purdy mouth boy. You come on in and we'll have a party. HEY BILLY-BOB. WE GOT A PURDY BOY HERE!"


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## popsdosh (16 February 2017)

case895 said:



			Why did you let them in and let them take photographs? They are the council, not the National Crime Agency or UK Border Force?

If they roll up at your gates, don't tell them your name, don't confirm the address, don't let therm photograph you and certainly don't let them in.

I think I'd act out a scene from Deliverance if they turned up at my door.
"Are you X? We're from the council. Can we come in please?"
"You got a purdy mouth boy. You come on in and we'll have a party. HEY BILLY-BOB. WE GOT A PURDY BOY HERE!"
		
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They certainly are not the council they are the valuation office an agency of HMRC who have more powers to enter property than the Police. The Police need a warrant HMRC dont.


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## Asha (16 February 2017)

case895 said:



			Why did you let them in and let them take photographs? They are the council, not the National Crime Agency or UK Border Force?

If they roll up at your gates, don't tell them your name, don't confirm the address, don't let therm photograph you and certainly don't let them in.

I think I'd act out a scene from Deliverance if they turned up at my door.
"Are you X? We're from the council. Can we come in please?"
"You got a purdy mouth boy. You come on in and we'll have a party. HEY BILLY-BOB. WE GOT A PURDY BOY HERE!"
		
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Brilliant, this has made me nearly spit my gin  over my phone . This scenario will be going around my head for days. Thank you for putting the smile back on my face .  (Bad day nothing to do with tax )


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## case895 (16 February 2017)

popsdosh said:



			They certainly are not the council they are the valuation office an agency of HMRC who have more powers to enter property than the Police. The Police need a warrant HMRC dont.
		
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One of my neighbours had the planners around twice. The first time he had one by the throat, the second time he showed the planning officer his home address and which school his kids went to. He now has a large American barn,  indoor school and several other buildings. He has no planning consent for any of them, but they have decided to stay in their offices and pretend everything is fine.


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## KittenInTheTree (16 February 2017)

case895 said:



			One of my neighbours had the planners around twice. The first time he had one by the throat, the second time he showed the planning officer his home address and which school his kids went to. He now has a large American barn,  indoor school and several other buildings. He has no planning consent for any of them, but they have decided to stay in their offices and pretend everything is fine.
		
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That neighbour sounds like a nasty so and so.


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## popsdosh (17 February 2017)

case895 said:



			One of my neighbours had the planners around twice. The first time he had one by the throat, the second time he showed the planning officer his home address and which school his kids went to. He now has a large American barn,  indoor school and several other buildings. He has no planning consent for any of them, but they have decided to stay in their offices and pretend everything is fine.
		
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Do you condone that sort of reaction?  I repeat they are not the council!!


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## DabDab (17 February 2017)

cobgoblin said:



			You have to wonder at a country that taxes a muckheap!
		
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That's what I really can't fathom - if you pile poo in the corner of fields would it be taxable? What about if you have a muck trailer? If you put bits if all weather in gateways or on a track system would they be taxable?

And would you automatically be granted change of use to business premises, when they are taxing items that have 'no business use' stipulated in the planning consent? It sounds like they are charging business rates for facilities that you are not allowed to use for business?


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## Dynamo (17 February 2017)

Slightly Foxed said:



			That's what I thought.
		
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Popsdosh, can you help with this question?  So the rates are Non-domestic, which includes but is not limited to business use.  The rate relief is available to small businesses.   So if the rates are for non-domestic premises, but there is no business in operation, how does the small business relief apply?  If I get rated for non-domestic rates on my stables and arena and I don't run any kind of business, do I have to pay the full lot?


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## Asha (17 February 2017)

Dynamo said:



			Popsdosh, can you help with this question?  So the rates are Non-domestic, which includes but is not limited to business use.  The rate relief is available to small businesses.   So if the rates are for non-domestic premises, but there is no business in operation, how does the small business relief apply?  If I get rated for non-domestic rates on my stables and arena and I don't run any kind of business, do I have to pay the full lot?
		
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https://www.gov.uk/apply-for-business-rate-relief/small-business-rate-relief

hopefully this explains it?


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## Dynamo (17 February 2017)

DabDab said:



			And would you automatically be granted change of use to business premises, when they are taxing items that have 'no business use' stipulated in the planning consent? It sounds like they are charging business rates for facilities that you are not allowed to use for business?
		
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That is where the change in definition of the rates is important.  They are not business rates any longer; they are non-domestic, which includes businesses if business use has been granted, and also includes anything else that is neither business nor domestic, i.e. all sorts of leisure use of one's own land and buildings.  It's not that horse owners are being specifically targeted, but that stables, arenas, jumping courses, fall in to that non-domestic, non-business category, and therefore represent an easily identifiable additional income stream for cash-strapped councils.  It's taxation by stealth.  The change in definition probably didn't cause much alarm at the time; everyone probably thought it was just another name for business rates, but in fact it opened up a whole new source of taxation for local authorities; they knew where the residential rates/council tax applied, they knew where business rates applied, and now there is a whole untapped source...


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## Dynamo (17 February 2017)

Asha said:



https://www.gov.uk/apply-for-business-rate-relief/small-business-rate-relief

hopefully this explains it?
		
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Not really.  It talks about business rate relief and all the language implies that a small business has to be in operation, but it doesn't actually state whether the relief would still apply if you are using non-domestic premises purely for your own use.


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## DabDab (17 February 2017)

Dynamo said:



			Popsdosh, can you help with this question?  So the rates are Non-domestic, which includes but is not limited to business use.  The rate relief is available to small businesses.   So if the rates are for non-domestic premises, but there is no business in operation, how does the small business relief apply?  If I get rated for non-domestic rates on my stables and arena and I don't run any kind of business, do I have to pay the full lot?
		
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You put it much better than me....and as I'm not allowed to use either my school or my stables for business I couldn't even pretend to be running a business


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## Asha (17 February 2017)

Dynamo said:



			Not really.  It talks about business rate relief and all the language implies that a small business has to be in operation, but it doesn't actually state whether the relief would still apply if you are using non-domestic premises purely for your own use.
		
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You don't have to be a business to apply for it. We received it for the yard we owned previously, again no business just a private yard.

My concern going forward, is that they are using this as a guise to get people to accept they have to pay, thinking they can apply and get the rate relief, but then in the near future make changes to eligibility. Or, given the recent revaluations, keep pushing the valuations up until you are over the £12k barrier.


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## DabDab (17 February 2017)

Dynamo said:



			That is where the change in definition of the rates is important.  They are not business rates any longer; they are non-domestic, which includes businesses if business use has been granted, and also includes anything else that is neither business nor domestic, i.e. all sorts of leisure use of one's own land and buildings.  It's not that horse owners are being specifically targeted, but that stables, arenas, jumping courses, fall in to that non-domestic, non-business category, and therefore represent an easily identifiable additional income stream for cash-strapped councils.  It's taxation by stealth.  The change in definition probably didn't cause much alarm at the time; everyone probably thought it was just another name for business rates, but in fact it opened up a whole new source of taxation for local authorities; they knew where the residential rates/council tax applied, they knew where business rates applied, and now there is a whole untapped source...
		
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Yes, that's what I've gathered....sorry, didn't phrase it very well. So there is no recourse for people who have a personal yard unless the planning authorities allow business use on previously exempt facilities and we all pretend to be running businesses.


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## Asha (17 February 2017)

DabDab said:



			You put it much better than me....and as I'm not allowed to use either my school or my stables for business I couldn't even pretend to be running a business
		
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All my consents for arena etc are for personal use only.


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## Asha (17 February 2017)

DabDab said:



			Yes, that's what I've gathered....sorry, didn't phrase it very well. So there is no recourse for people who have a personal yard unless the planning authorities allow business use on previously exempt facilities and we all pretend to be running businesses.
		
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Not at the minute, you don't have to be a business to claim the relief


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## Dynamo (17 February 2017)

Asha said:



			Not at the minute, you don't have to be a business to claim the relief
		
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Great.  Thanks for that.  I bet that loophole gets closed very soon.


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## DabDab (17 February 2017)

Dynamo said:



			Great.  Thanks for that.  I bet that loophole gets closed very soon.
		
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Thanks Asha, will look into it.
Yes I agree, it seems like a rather contrived slippery slope - get everyone on the books and then find a way to charge them


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## Goldenstar (17 February 2017)

DabDab said:



			Thanks Asha, will look into it.
Yes I agree, it seems like a rather contrived slippery slope - get everyone on the books and then find a way to charge them
		
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Yup that's what will happen.


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## popsdosh (17 February 2017)

DabDab said:



			Thanks Asha, will look into it.
Yes I agree, it seems like a rather contrived slippery slope - get everyone on the books and then find a way to charge them
		
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Its nothing like that ! the criteria hasnt changed at all nobody is being assessed to be liable who wouldnt have been in the past they are just catching up. When you consider the last revaluation was in 2010 the increases on the whole are not that out of the way. At the end of the day you most likely pay no more as like the council tax it is worked out at by dividing the need (cost of running services )by the units paying it in this case total of all valuations and then set the poundage rate. Somebody has to pay for these services and im sure most people with horses are more able than others in society. If it was not business rates it would alter your council tax banding as the facilities would be assessed as part of your property value. No relief from those so which is the better option.


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## VioletFlower (19 February 2017)

This is a very interesting thread and thank you to all the knowledgeable people who have responded. I may find myself in a similar position to the op.

A question though...
What council 'services' are the non-domestic rates paying for? That are not already covered by our council tax and other taxes?


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## popsdosh (19 February 2017)

VioletFlower said:



			This is a very interesting thread and thank you to all the knowledgeable people who have responded. I may find myself in a similar position to the op.

A question though...
What council 'services' are the non-domestic rates paying for? That are not already covered by our council tax and other taxes?
		
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They are contributing to the whole pot ,without them others would be a lot higher.


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## Asha (20 February 2017)

Thought id let you all know the latest update !

The current valuation is £5,092

Stables = £1240
Arena = £1200
Feedroom = £95
Equipment store = £2,295
Tack room = £262

The proposed increase for 2017 will take it to £6100, I'm not sure what his means in terms what we have to pay yet, but at least they didnt charge for the muckheap !

I had a quick look at others in my area, and our local venue ( Southview) will be going from £36k to £50k, how these centres will make things pay going forward I do not know, (especially given the small turnout this weekend at a premier show) I believe the BSJA are attempting to lobby the government about these revaluations.

I would imagine livery bills will be going up across the country, and anyone thinking of investing in new facilities, get advice first. I wish I had !


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## PinkSwoon (21 February 2017)

Going by this - https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...963/Stables-business-rates-or-council-tax.pdf

Am I right in thinking that if the stables are within the curtilage of the house then the stables are included with the council tax on the house?

So if you bought land, built an american barn type set up with self contained accommodation above for example then you'd only be charged in relation to the value of the property & not additionally? What an absolute backwards way of thinking.

I can remember seeing a programme when I was younger & a woman who lived in the back end of nowhere in some Nordic country rescued a horse & it ended up living in her house due to the snow. Maybe we should all do that.

Also why no dog tax? I wish there was. Dogs cost the council a fortune.


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## Cecile (21 February 2017)

Asha said:



			Thought id let you all know the latest update !

The current valuation is £5,092

Stables = £1240
Arena = £1200
Feedroom = £95
Equipment store = £2,295
Tack room = £262

The proposed increase for 2017 will take it to £6100, I'm not sure what his means in terms what we have to pay yet, but at least they didnt charge for the muckheap !

I had a quick look at others in my area, and our local venue ( Southview) will be going from £36k to £50k, how these centres will make things pay going forward I do not know, (especially given the small turnout this weekend at a premier show) I believe the BSJA are attempting to lobby the government about these revaluations.

I would imagine livery bills will be going up across the country, and anyone thinking of investing in new facilities, get advice first. I wish I had !
		
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I have been thinking about the visit you had.  If you had known what they were looking for prior to their arrival what changes would you have made if any?
I thought about the dung heap when you first wrote and as I have a grab lorry every so often I would of arranged for it to arrive
My feed room is also tack room and coffee shop for passing farrier, vet and visitors, so multi purpose
My barn I use for equipment storage but there are generally sheep hurdles up just in case I need to bring in a limping sheep or whatever


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## ester (21 February 2017)

Nice round numbers they like then! 
Why did they include the arena I thought you said it was in the curtilage?


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## popsdosh (21 February 2017)

ester said:



			Nice round numbers they like then! 
Why did they include the arena I thought you said it was in the curtilage?
		
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By putting up a fence you are in effect moving your curtilage as it is indeed a flexible boundary thats why a few riders around here have no arena fence.  Also looking from an earlier photo It looked like the arena was attached to the stables. Dont see the point about round numbers as on the arena I really dont see how you can multiply 800 x£1.50 and get anything different.


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## Gift Horse (21 February 2017)

case895
I think I'd act out a scene from Deliverance if they turned up at my door.
"Are you X? We're from the council. Can we come in please?"
"You got a purdy mouth boy. You come on in and we'll have a party. HEY BILLY-BOB. WE GOT A PURDY BOY HERE!"[/QUOTE said:
			
		


			This made me laugh. ^
I converted a disused building to my first home when I was 21 (I knew how to party back then) our house warming was a heavy night, with lots of 20 somethings crashed out in the early hours. At 9am the following morning the woman from the domestic rates (council tax) rocked up to value. Bleary-eyed I let her in and she had to measure up stepping over sleeping bodies!
		
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## Gift Horse (21 February 2017)

I have found this thread really useful thanks for starting it OP. My OH has been trying to explain this to me. Popsdosh explains it really well.


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## ester (21 February 2017)

popsdosh said:



			By putting up a fence you are in effect moving your curtilage as it is indeed a flexible boundary thats why a few riders around here have no arena fence.  Also looking from an earlier photo It looked like the arena was attached to the stables. Dont see the point about round numbers as on the arena I really dont see how you can multiply 800 x£1.50 and get anything different.
		
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Makes sense, thanks I am slightly extrapolating to what we have at home. 

the arena was a lovely round number, the 2295 equipment store made me chuckle, it seemed more like a figure that you'd see on a second hand car. I do understand where it comes from but


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## Asha (21 February 2017)

ester said:



			Nice round numbers they like then! 
Why did they include the arena I thought you said it was in the curtilage?
		
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The land where the arena was built was part of the garden, about half of it. However, the valuation officer explained that as we had a fence line on the arena which runs  to the concrete yard in front of the stables, this in there opinion defines the garden curtilage


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## Asha (21 February 2017)

Cecile said:



			I have been thinking about the visit you had.  If you had known what they were looking for prior to their arrival what changes would you have made if any?
I thought about the dung heap when you first wrote and as I have a grab lorry every so often I would of arranged for it to arrive
My feed room is also tack room and coffee shop for passing farrier, vet and visitors, so multi purpose
My barn I use for equipment storage but there are generally sheep hurdles up just in case I need to bring in a limping sheep or whatever
		
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I honestly wouldn't have done anything differently on the day. In hindsight, what I should have done was apply to extend the garden curtilage before applying for an arena. 
As for the stables, I could have put some wooden ones up in the garden, but i love my stables inthe cowshed. It suits us perfectly, we have everything under one roof, the farrier loves coming as he never gets wet ! Plus it was already there, would have been nuts to have left it . 

The rates on the barn is one up for debate, as in my mind that's an agricultural store and shouldn't be mentioned. 

As the bill currently stands at zero, I will leave the battle for when they decide to move the goal posts, which I have no doubt they will. Otherwise that was a complete waste of tax payers money !


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## dozzie (22 February 2017)

Asha said:



			I honestly wouldn't have done anything differently on the day. In hindsight, what I should have done was apply to extend the garden curtilage before applying for an arena. 
As for the stables, I could have put some wooden ones up in the garden, but i love my stables inthe cowshed. It suits us perfectly, we have everything under one roof, the farrier loves coming as he never gets wet ! Plus it was already there, would have been nuts to have left it . 

The rates on the barn is one up for debate, as in my mind that's an agricultural store and shouldn't be mentioned. 

As the bill currently stands at zero, I will leave the battle for when they decide to move the goal posts, which I have no doubt they will. Otherwise that was a complete waste of tax payers money !
		
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Agree. A waste of taxpayers money.


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## DabDab (22 February 2017)

popsdosh said:



			Its nothing like that ! the criteria hasnt changed at all nobody is being assessed to be liable who wouldnt have been in the past they are just catching up. When you consider the last revaluation was in 2010 the increases on the whole are not that out of the way. At the end of the day you most likely pay no more as like the council tax it is worked out at by dividing the need (cost of running services )by the units paying it in this case total of all valuations and then set the poundage rate. Somebody has to pay for these services and im sure most people with horses are more able than others in society. If it was not business rates it would alter your council tax banding as the facilities would be assessed as part of your property value. No relief from those so which is the better option.
		
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Of course it is like that - they wouldn't go to the effort of doing it otherwise. There was a specific reason that they redefined 'business rates' as 'non-domestic rates'. They're not daft, nor fond of undertaking time consuming activities that will bring them no return.

And as for horsey people being able to afford it - I guess you're not familiar with people who have scrimped, saved, worked their knackers off and lived on a shoestring their entire adult life in order to be able to afford a falling down house with a few acres and some basic stables? Or a livery yard owner that works every hour god gives and can only just make ends meet as it is? Do you really think that people like this can afford thousands more a year when they decide to shift the goal posts?


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## popsdosh (22 February 2017)

Nobody has shifted any goal posts. If you think they have your deluded none of the qualifying criteria has changed and indeed there has not been a name change.
Everybody has to some degree a goal in life however if you have stables that may come within the criteria why should you not be charged exactly the same as everybody else. If a livery yard cant make a living they need to either charge more or pack up its very simple.  For those up to a reasonable size of course its not an issue as they will not pay anything but that does not preclude them from the assessment process. They are certainly not paying thousands a year extra .
I suppose you would be happy that for every yard owner or livery that dont think they should pay some poor pensioner will have to pay more council tax ,these services dont run on fresh air you know.


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## DabDab (22 February 2017)

I think you may have missed my point, and I think in any case we may have to agree to disagree.

This is not linked to council tax, and I'm really not sure where pensioners come in since the pensioner demographic covers both rich and poor.

And as for goal posts, I said 'when' they move. Because I don't believe councils are going round to private properties assessing taxable value for which most will be exempt because they are bored.


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## Leo Walker (22 February 2017)

popsdosh said:



			Nobody has shifted any goal posts
		
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Yet!


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## Amye (22 February 2017)

Very interesting thread! Hope everything works out for you OP.

Can't say I understand all of it but had a little look at the yard where I keep my horse (I don't have anywhere myself) out of curiosity - looks like their value will be going up around 6k which takes them over the 12k threshold! Maybe a lot of liveries will be hiking up their prices if this is a common theme.


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## popsdosh (22 February 2017)

DabDab said:



			I think you may have missed my point, and I think in any case we may have to agree to disagree.

This is not linked to council tax, and I'm really not sure where pensioners come in since the pensioner demographic covers both rich and poor.

And as for goal posts, I said 'when' they move. Because I don't believe councils are going round to private properties assessing taxable value for which most will be exempt because they are bored.
		
Click to expand...

Of course council tax comes into it as the local authority has to raise their money from somewhere if not via business rates ( Non domestic) they will need to raise council tax to everybody rich or poor.
Actually they have to assess properties when they become aware of them and if anything the exemption has become more generous this year. Its not councils doing it so their not getting bored.


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## DabDab (22 February 2017)

Well if you were to take the cynical view - as of three or four years ago councils can now keep half the business rates raised in their area (previously it all went into the national pot, so yes, rather different to council tax), and this change was intended to encourage local councils to encourage businesses into their area, because for the first time the more business rates in their area the more money in their pot. But encouraging new business in a locality is hard, so far easier to wonder around looking for muckheaps to tax.

The laws are old, but exceptionally vague, so previously it was safer to stick to rating actual businesses. Theoretically anything outside the curtalidge could be rated - a bonfire, wood pile, shed, woodland path, area of hardstanding.....


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## ester (22 February 2017)

If they aren't doing it for kicks (presumably!) what is the point of them rating something so significantly under the threshold?


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## Sugar_and_Spice (22 February 2017)

ester said:



			If they aren't doing it for kicks (presumably!) what is the point of them rating something so significantly under the threshold?
		
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Maybe it's like council tax, where some people are exempt from paying, but that doesn't mean it isn't paid, the government pays it for them.  And I expect once they've logged that "something" is there, it's possible to keep an eye on it in the future, to see if it goes over the threshold.  Can't keep an eye on something they don't know exists.


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## Sussexbythesea (22 February 2017)

You live in a beautiful property with lovely equestrian facilities that most people can only ever dream of. It was rightly reviewed as whether it was appropriately valued and the outcome is you have to pay extra is exactly £0. I simply do not see what the problem is. 

I'm glad our Government is making sure people are paying the correct amounts in accordance with our laws. 

If anything I would be more worried about actual businesses who employ people thereby contributing to the economy being affected negatively by any rise.


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## MartinW (1 September 2018)

Hello, in a similar vein we have a yard on the outskirts of the New Forest. This was derelict when purchased apart from the house in one corner of the yard. Over the past years we have renovated the yard and house. Down the North side of the yard are 3 self contained holiday cottages, on the west side an old barn used as storage and another holiday cottage. On the east side 10 stables. On the east side storage units. Laundry for the holiday cottages and our house. We have 8.9 acres available for turnout. As this is based mainly on a gravel bed the grass burns off in the summer. One paddock is by a stream that is usable in the summer but not the winter. On this we have 5 Shire horses and a Shetland. Mainly we own these horses however a few are friends horses and most are rescue cases. We take no money for the Shires using the lands or stables. Recently we have a visit from the valuation office who claimed to looking to value the holiday cottages, all well and good as we agree that these are a business however when she turned up we asked if she would like to look at the cottages and were surprised when she said that they were of little interest and she had come to see the stables. We showed her around and explained about the Shires. A few weeks later we received an estimate and they want to value the stables where we keep our own horses and the 'rescue' shires and shetland for £3750.00. This amount complete with the holiday cottages takes the total value just over the small business claim limit to £13250.00 so we will get no relief.
Can the VOA rate a private yard with boxes for our own use!!
This seems grossly unfair and I am now of a mind to take out the internal walls on the 4 stables not used to reduce the amount to below the limit which seems ridiculous that we have to destroy a beautiful old yard simply because of a valuation by the VOA.

The valuation also had numerous other errors which we will appeal against.

It seems to me that they were desperate to value the yard over the small business rates relief amount so that we will have to pay.

Does anyone have any ideas?

Many thanks for any help
Best regards
MartinW


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## cobgoblin (1 September 2018)

If they are stables for your own use and your house is in the corner of the yard surely you can claim that they are within the domicile of the house... It all sounds a bit dodgy. Might be worth having a word with a solicitor.


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## blitznbobs (1 September 2018)

MartinW said:



			Hello, in a similar vein we have a yard on the outskirts of the New Forest. This was derelict when purchased apart from the house in one corner of the yard. Over the past years we have renovated the yard and house. Down the North side of the yard are 3 self contained holiday cottages, on the west side an old barn used as storage and another holiday cottage. On the east side 10 stables. On the east side storage units. Laundry for the holiday cottages and our house. We have 8.9 acres available for turnout. As this is based mainly on a gravel bed the grass burns off in the summer. One paddock is by a stream that is usable in the summer but not the winter. On this we have 5 Shire horses and a Shetland. Mainly we own these horses however a few are friends horses and most are rescue cases. We take no money for the Shires using the lands or stables. Recently we have a visit from the valuation office who claimed to looking to value the holiday cottages, all well and good as we agree that these are a business however when she turned up we asked if she would like to look at the cottages and were surprised when she said that they were of little interest and she had come to see the stables. We showed her around and explained about the Shires. A few weeks later we received an estimate and they want to value the stables where we keep our own horses and the 'rescue' shires and shetland for £3750.00. This amount complete with the holiday cottages takes the total value just over the small business claim limit to £13250.00 so we will get no relief.
Can the VOA rate a private yard with boxes for our own use!!
This seems grossly unfair and I am now of a mind to take out the internal walls on the 4 stables not used to reduce the amount to below the limit which seems ridiculous that we have to destroy a beautiful old yard simply because of a valuation by the VOA.

The valuation also had numerous other errors which we will appeal against.

It seems to me that they were desperate to value the yard over the small business rates relief amount so that we will have to pay.

Does anyone have any ideas?

Many thanks for any help
Best regards
MartinW
		
Click to expand...

Buy a plough, use the shires to pull the plough occasionally, horses used for ploughing and pulling are officially agricultural... just for your info


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## cobgoblin (1 September 2018)

MartinW said:



			Hello, in a similar vein we have a yard on the outskirts of the New Forest. This was derelict when purchased apart from the house in one corner of the yard. Over the past years we have renovated the yard and house. Down the North side of the yard are 3 self contained holiday cottages, on the west side an old barn used as storage and another holiday cottage. On the east side 10 stables. On the east side storage units. Laundry for the holiday cottages and our house. We have 8.9 acres available for turnout. As this is based mainly on a gravel bed the grass burns off in the summer. One paddock is by a stream that is usable in the summer but not the winter. On this we have 5 Shire horses and a Shetland. Mainly we own these horses however a few are friends horses and most are rescue cases. We take no money for the Shires using the lands or stables. Recently we have a visit from the valuation office who claimed to looking to value the holiday cottages, all well and good as we agree that these are a business however when she turned up we asked if she would like to look at the cottages and were surprised when she said that they were of little interest and she had come to see the stables. We showed her around and explained about the Shires. A few weeks later we received an estimate and they want to value the stables where we keep our own horses and the 'rescue' shires and shetland for £3750.00. This amount complete with the holiday cottages takes the total value just over the small business claim limit to £13250.00 so we will get no relief.
Can the VOA rate a private yard with boxes for our own use!!
This seems grossly unfair and I am now of a mind to take out the internal walls on the 4 stables not used to reduce the amount to below the limit which seems ridiculous that we have to destroy a beautiful old yard simply because of a valuation by the VOA.

The valuation also had numerous other errors which we will appeal against.

It seems to me that they were desperate to value the yard over the small business rates relief amount so that we will have to pay.

Does anyone have any ideas?

Many thanks for any help
Best regards
MartinW
		
Click to expand...


Just had a bit of a shufty around and the problem might be that your yard is 'mixed purposes'... In which case the whole yard becomes liable for non domestic rates.
Is there any way that the holiday cottages could be separated off from the rest of the yard and registered as another property in their own right?  I may of course, be talking junk but a house down the road from us was recently rebuilt it has a barn in the front garden which is accessed via the main (and only) entrance to the house. The barn is classified as a business building and is registered as being a separate lot to the house even though they were sold together.


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## MartinW (1 September 2018)

Many thanks for the ideas. Whats weird is that the barn is zero rated, the tack room is zero rated, the stable kitchen is zero rated and the laundry for the cottages is zero rated. I would have thought that if the loose boxes as they call them are rated then why not the support buildings? The whole curtilage debate is complicated because the yard and yard house are withing the curtilage of an old farm house which is about 100 metres distant but the sub curtilage (if there is such a thing?) of the yard is within the yard house! The yard has never ever been rated before and we have an agricultural holding number for the property. Somewhere I have read that if the horses are used to work the land then there may be exemptions and the shires do work the land. I suppose we could get some goats, put them into the stables and then claim exemption as they are being used to home farm animals but really I find the whole affair strange. I really dont mind paying what is due but why should we pay for private stables that are used for our own horses or horses that otherwise would have a crap existence and for which we receive no income?


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## MartinW (1 September 2018)

Thanks for that news, I had heard that horses used to work the land are officially agricultural and ours are used to pull a chain harrow and we have videos of this, we dont have a plough but cant see this being a problem. We also have an agricultural holding number so that would probably help. Just out of interest do you have any links regarding the above as it would be very useful and help our case. Once again many thanks for your comments.
Best regards


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## Pearlsasinger (1 September 2018)

If you are a Gold member of BHS, ring their legal helpline.  I got some excellent advice via them when I had a run-in with our local council (not the same problem, so I can't offer specific advice).  BHS refer problems to an appropriately experienced solicitor for the best advice, for anything which is not run-of-the-mill.


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## MartinW (1 September 2018)

Pearlsasinger said:



			If you are a Gold member of BHS, ring their legal helpline.  I got some excellent advice via them when I had a run-in with our local council (not the same problem, so I can't offer specific advice).  BHS refer problems to an appropriately experienced solicitor for the best advice, for anything which is not run-of-the-mill.
		
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Yes i am a gold member of the BHS and thanks for the info, most useful and I will give them a ring and post the results so that maybe it can help someone else. As Ive said we really have no problem paying whats correct and right but am reluctant to take on face value what the valuation officer says and especially so when I feel the initial contact was under possible false pretences.


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## Pearlsasinger (1 September 2018)

MartinW said:



			Yes i am a gold member of the BHS and thanks for the info, most useful and I will give them a ring and post the results so that maybe it can help someone else. As Ive said we really have no problem paying whats correct and right but am reluctant to take on face value what the valuation officer says and especially so when I feel the initial contact was under possible false pretences.
		
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We found that the best way to find out the truth of what they actually wanted to know was to put in an Information Governance request (Data Protection), they have to give you copies of anything in which your name or address, or other identifiers appear.  It took 4 goes before we got everything, so be persistent!


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## blitznbobs (2 September 2018)

MartinW said:



			Thanks for that news, I had heard that horses used to work the land are officially agricultural and ours are used to pull a chain harrow and we have videos of this, we dont have a plough but cant see this being a problem. We also have an agricultural holding number so that would probably help. Just out of interest do you have any links regarding the above as it would be very useful and help our case. Once again many thanks for your comments.
Best regards
		
Click to expand...

Yes any agricultural activity counts

https://www.gov.uk/farm-and-livery-horses

Quote A horse is considered to be an agricultural animal if it is used to farm agricultural land or is farmed for meat or hides.


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## sywell (4 September 2018)

I have a letter from the Minister of State Brandon Lewis which says the curtilage of your garden is the boundary fence any house  within the curtilage can be considered as open countryside.


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## Pearlsasinger (4 September 2018)

sywell said:



			I have a letter from the Minister of State Brandon Lewis which says the curtilage of your garden is the boundary fence any house  within the curtilage can be considered as open countryside.
		
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That doesn't make sense!


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## Dubsie (4 September 2018)

blitznbobs said:



			Quote &#8220;A horse is considered to be an agricultural animal if it is used to farm agricultural land or is farmed for meat or hides.&#8221;
		
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Hmmnnnn....so if you just harrow in your horse's poo as opposed to picking it up, could you deem your equines as muck-spreaders?


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## sywell (7 September 2018)

cobgoblin said:



			It would be interesting to know what they are defining as curtilage. Historical maps ..even OS maps may help to prove where the curtilage limits lie. 11m is very close to the house.
		
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According to the Secretary of State ,in writing,it is the boundary of your garden.


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## sywell (7 September 2018)

popsdosh said:



			Just to put your mind slightly at ease the box figure is per box not per m2 .I know thats not easily understood from just seeing it . The figures are related to what they feel would be a market rent for the facilities and to be fair most boxes you would expect to rent for well in excess of £375/annum. When you see the total the actual rates you pay are approx half that figure as the current poundage is around 49p However anything under 12000 you should be able to claim relief. It was definitley business rates they were assessing and not a domestic revaluation?


I bet you have been looking for the ones that are not paying ,it can be an eye opener

Click to expand...

The planning consent said in the conditions that the stables could not be used for commercial use,so i presume they could not apply rates to the as they do not have a value for renting?


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## Fragglerock (7 September 2018)

My friend had this - her stables were for private use but she still had someone round to value it and it has a rateable value.  I seem to remember the visit was prompted by a planning application she had to put in to rebuild after an arson attack.


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## Goldenstar (7 September 2018)

sywell said:



			The planning consent said in the conditions that the stables could not be used for commercial use,so i presume they could not apply rates to the as they do not have a value for renting?
		
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Not so horses are unique all other leisure equipment does not attract rates so if you put your speed boat in a shed it&#8217;s ok but buildings assiocated with domestic horse care can attract rates .


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## Widgeon (12 February 2019)

Digging up an old thread here - we're looking at buying a house that has some stables behind it. I've had a look on the government website as an earlier poster detailed in this thread (https://www.gov.uk/correct-your-business-rates), and private yards round the area are coming up with a rateable value of Â£1500-Â£8000. 

I checked here (https://www.gov.uk/apply-for-business-rate-relief/small-business-rate-relief) and it looks like anything with a value of below Â£15K is eligible for small business relief. What I don't understand is whether or not you are eligible for this exemption if you are a private home owner rather than the owner of a small business? Can anyone enlighten me?


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## ycbm (12 February 2019)

It's about where the stables are placed. If they are 'within the curtilage' of the domestic property then there are no separate rates for equestrian facilities.   The definition of  'within the curtilage'  can vary from rating authority  to rating authority, but generally, you're ok if they are close and share the same access.


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## MagicMelon (12 February 2019)

I dont get these "rates", how can they ask money for having a few horses on your own land? Id understand if you were making a business from them (livery yard etc.) but Im guessing your private?  

Id be pretty mad and would definately fight it if they said Id have to pay and especially to back date it - how can they do that? Theyd surely have to prove when you brought horses onto the property?  Just say you only just put horses there last week? They'd have to prove otherwise?


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## ycbm (12 February 2019)

If there are buildings and they aren't near the house and especially if they have their own entrance, then they constitute a second peppery and rates are due.

There aren't any rates unless there are buildings afaik.

I'm lucky, mine is all right by the house with nothing except paths between buildings/arena/etc.


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## Conrad (6 February 2020)

Here's our experience in the hope it may help someone.
We're in mid-Devon and got a letter from the Valuation Office (VO) saying they wanted to inspect our stables for Non-Domestic Rates. The stables were built in 2015 and I think they had only just got round to finding us from the planning permission.  The stables were not going to be classed as exempt for being within the curtilege of our house (although it sounds like solicitors make a lot of money out of the vague and contentious definition of 'curtilege'). So the totally unexpected prospect of 4 years of backdated rates charges was pretty scarey. The planning consultant we had used told us to point out that our permission specifically forbids any commercial use or letting out therefore the stables must be domestic. This cut no ice with the VO. The time they planned to inspect was no good for us as we work M-F. We suggested a weekend or evening, but they wouldn't agree to this. Instead they offered to do the assessment without visiting (presumably using mapping and our planning application), said this could be less accurate but that we would have a right to appeal (and if we did so they would inspect then). So we agreed to this. The assessment has just come through, and based on £375 per box, £20/sq m for the tack room and £15/sq m for the feed room, its under £3000. We knew there was the possibility of claiming Small Business Rates Relief, but were nervous about this as the rates are called Non-Domestic Rates and the relief is Small Business Rates Relief and we are not allowed to be a business even if we wanted to. Luckily we need not have worried. We filled in the Small Business Rates Relief form and submitted to the council. (The council handles rates billing and relief, the VO only do the valuation that is used to calculate the rates.) And we've just had the rates bill through for the last 4 years, all with a 100% discount (as the valuation is under £12000). Nothing to pay. Phew! I did wonder if we would have to pay and then claim back, but fortunately not. How they can set a valuation, which is supposed to be based on the potential rental income of a non-domestic property, when planning permission specifically forbids renting that property, beats me. I wonder if that has ever been tested in court. Fortunately its turned out to be immaterial for us.


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## Widgeon (7 February 2020)

Conrad said:



			Here's our experience in the hope it may help someone.
		
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Thanks for sharing. I do tend to find that whenever I get a glimpse into the inner workings of our local council it is pretty eye opening. Glad this worked out okay for you.


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## Keith_Beef (7 February 2020)

popsdosh said:



			Check others local to you.

www.tax.service.gov.uk/view-my-valuation/search

Put in advanced search choose your billing authority then put in special code 236 it should bring up equestrian facilities close to you.
		
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Wow! That could be a really useful tool for finding livery stables.

I had a quick look in category 236 in a post code area close to where I grew up. It found me a business that I knew of (a girl I used to be very friendly with kept her horse there), and listed
an Indoor Arena, an Outdoor Arena, an Outdoor Horse Walker, several Stores and several Dutch Barns.


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## Tiddlypom (18 October 2021)

I'm glad that this thread exists, as I remembered it when it was our turn on Friday for the arrival in the post of a hefty rates bill for our purely private yard, stables, shelters and arena.

Nearly £7k due within 14 days for rates, backdated to 2017 .




There was no accompanying advice on how to appeal or discuss the bill, just the demand for nearly £7k. The council helpline had already knocked off for the weekend, so we had to hang on til today to query it.

All sorted, no monies owed. The council is required by government to send out these demands, but the very helpful council bod readily agreed that we have small business exemption. Even though we are not a business, this is a private home. All legit. Council bod agrees that it is a nonsense, but the inflexible wording of the demand is imposed on them by government.

https://www.gov.uk/apply-for-business-rate-relief/small-business-rate-relief

Oh, and btw he also told us how they assess whether the stables are within the curtilage of a property. If any wall or part of the stable structure touches the garden boundary, it is within the curtilage. If the stables are close to the boundary but don't touch it, it isn't.


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## Asha (18 October 2021)

Tiddlypom said:



			I'm glad that this thread exists, as I remembered it when it was our turn on Friday for the arrival in the post of a hefty rates bill for our purely private yard, stables, shelters and arena.

Nearly £7k due within 14 days for rates, backdated to 2017 .

View attachment 81283


There was no accompanying advice on how to appeal or discuss the bill, just the demand for nearly £7k. The council helpline had already knocked off for the weekend, so we had to hang on til today to query it.

All sorted, no monies owed. The council is required by government to send out these demands, but the very helpful council bod readily agreed that we have small business exemption. Even though we are not a business, this is a private home. All legit. Council bod agrees that it is a nonsense, but the inflexible wording of the demand is imposed on them by government.

https://www.gov.uk/apply-for-business-rate-relief/small-business-rate-relief

Oh, and btw he also told us how they assess whether the stables are within the curtilage of a property. If any wall or part of the stable structure touches the garden boundary, it is within the curtilage. If the stables are close to the boundary but don't touch it, it isn't.
		
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Thats dreadful, could you imagine someone else getting that and panicking ? It even gives instalments .


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## Tiddlypom (18 October 2021)

It's deliberately appalling wording. Helpful worker said that HMG are desperate for cash, and are effectively putting the frighteners on people to just cough up.


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## meleeka (18 October 2021)

This makes me very cross.  It feels like trying to get money by deception.  How many people who wouldn’t have read this thread have just paid up I wonder?


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## Tiddlypom (3 November 2021)

Written confirmation from the council that, instead of the £6939.75 that was being demanded for non domestic rates for the stables less than a month ago, we owe precisely £0.00. As we knew, and they knew, but the government had still had a good go at intimidating us into paying .


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