# Sheep for a beginner



## kat2290 (8 February 2013)

Hi all!

So due to having far too much spare time on my hands I am thinking about getting some sheep and was wondering what people would recommend for a beginner. The idea is to buy some ewes with lambs at foot this year, rear the lambs for slaughter but keep the meat ourselves to sell to family and friends. We have a very helpful farmer down the road who has told me 'he knows a man' who I can buy some herdwicks from. He said I need to make sure I don't buy sheep that are "ratchers" - not sure if this is just a west cumbrian term but he explained that basically a ratcher is a sheep which is an escape artist. Apparantly, this man he knows sells sheep which aren't ratchers so I presume that means he handles them, trains them to the bucket etc but I need to find out more about it.

Anyway...from what I've been reading mainly on the Accidental Smallholder forum it has become apparant to me that perhaps Herdwicks aren't the best sheep for a beginner to start off with. What do you all think? Ideally what I'm after is a breed that is very hardy, could survive happily in a field which doesnt have a purpose built shelter, is easy to handle for worming etc (I'm a small but strong woman and would like to be able to do most things on my own), and that need little intervention during lambing. It would also be advantageous money-wise to have a breed with a good lambing rate (not sure if this is the correct term). Also above all, they need to produce good meat as that is the main reason for keeping them. 

I'm still getting to grips with all the sheepy terminology so apologies if some of the phrases I've used sound a bit odd!

Also I should add that I'm thinking very small numbers to begin with, probably 5 ewes maximum. Have posted this thread on the accidental smallholder forum too


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## daviedevs (8 February 2013)

Not an expert on sheep...but i do know Herdwicks can jump like springs..so definitely decent fencing required.

Also dont leave anything of value lying around...i was doing some electrical jointing in a hole in the paddock and the sheep were stood by watching..went to get my cable cutters and they were missing. The ram had them in his mouth and was nonchalantly heading off with them!!!

Good luck with whatever you get.


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## Old Bat (8 February 2013)

You could try Soay apart from the fact that you can't catch the little toads! We started with 13 a few years ago and have built the flock up to 29. They are very hardy, thrive on very little through the winter, shed their fleece, have good feet and sort themselves out well when lambing. They also have horns which are great grab handles for worming, foot trimming etc. You can't herd them though, one sight of a dog and they scatter. We feed them most days and now they'll come to call and largely go where you want them to but they do have a very strong primitive instinct!


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## BWa (8 February 2013)

A massive generalisation probably but the bigger the breed the more docile. The smaller natives like Soays and Hebrideans are very quick and springy! Our big Suffolk tips are the most docile things in the world and do everything at a steady pace. If you have very little experience I would get some pet lambs from a local sheep farmer, nowt fancy, bucket train them as everything is much easier when you can catch the ******s! And expect the odd loss. Sheep literally make a hobby of dying! Then enjoy a lovely roast dinner or too. Once you are happy with the management venture into a breed of some sort, I think Zwartbles are lovely to look at and easy going. Unless you live in a mountainous area, most UK sheep live outside all year round quite happily. Although lambing is much easier and more pleasurable if you can do it inside. Good luck and enjoy.


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## TrasaM (8 February 2013)

I'm very jealous  never had much to do with sheep as dad raised cows but I spotted a Swartz blase(sp) on a tv show and am really taken with them. I like sheep milk produce and the breed is used to produce milk and they are huge. White faces and black fleece and very handsome faces. I'd love to have enough land to keep a few and use their milk to make cheese 
Would love to know how you get on.


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## mulledwhine (8 February 2013)

Can't recommend a breed as that is a very personal choice, but I found this book very helpful to me ' small scale sheep keeping by Jeremy hunt '


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## jrp204 (8 February 2013)

Since ewes with lambs are generally sold at market this may limit your choice, your other alternative is to buy some in lamb shearling (1st pregnancy) ewes from a breeder. Polled Dorsets are popular, good breeders and can lamb fairly well all year round. Texel or Charolais crosses will give you meaty lambs and generally are fairly docile. Due to such a rubbish winter many lambs have not 'finished' so you may be able to get some crossbred older ewe lambs that are too big for the lamb trade but could be kept on and put in lamb in the autumn. If you go to market to buy ewes with lambs do check the ewe has teeth!


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## PandorasJar (8 February 2013)

We have Dorset polls. Never escape (we have goats for that), very hardy, we have some trained for walking in harness (for trips) and they are placid. Although one of mine has been round an adventure playground with me, jumping the poles (we had a flat tyre and were bored ) none have ever been inclined to jump out or go through anything.

They also seem to like living. Over several years only a couple of expected losses. 

They are as individual as horses though. We have the b**** who is grumpy and will give up one lamb every year, and we have mother hen who will not only take on this lamb with her own, but we now have to separate as will take on goat kids too.

They also like tea, nothing below waist height is safe!


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## PandorasJar (8 February 2013)

^ in terms of shelter, ours just get more hay when there is snow. They are in fields with trees but are rarely under them except in summer... and then it's only because they like to stand on two legs and eat the branches with the goats!

Worming and jabs are easy. Shearing is easy too - work this into your costs whether doing yourself or paying someone. We do it twice a year


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## suestowford (8 February 2013)

I like the Dorsets too, they are nice sheep.
Don't get Mashams, they're wild as hawks.
And remember what sheep do for a pastime...die.


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## kat2290 (8 February 2013)

Ahhh so many replies, thanks everyone 

One of the main attractions of the Herdwicks is that they are very common round here so getting new stock/new tups would be easier. My other prefered breed would be shetlands, I know there are a couple of places locally with shetlands and I have it in my head that they are better mothers, more prolific and more milky than the herdwicks...but I could just be making that up!! Anybody know?! 

I think what I need is a big chart with all the different breeds on telling me what they are good for!! I've looked at so much stuff online its just becoming one big jumbled mess in my head!

The other thing is costs...can anybody give me a rough idea of the cost of keeping the ewes and the price you get for the lambs. I'm not really going in to it for money, more just an interesting experience but obviously it would be good to at least break even...I'd rather not lose money!


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## FinnishLapphund (8 February 2013)

kat2290 said:



			...Ideally what I'm after is a breed that is very hardy, could survive happily in a field which doesnt have a purpose built shelter, is easy to handle for worming etc (I'm a small but strong woman and would like to be able to do most things on my own), and that need little intervention during lambing. It would also be advantageous money-wise to have a breed with a good lambing rate (not sure if this is the correct term). Also above all, they need to produce good meat as that is the main reason for keeping them.
		
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From what I've heard, sheep breeds where it is known that the ewes have a high incidence of multiple births, are breeds where you have to count on possibly needing to intervene when lambing. For example, for a Finnsheep ewe it is quite common to have 3 to 4 lambs, sometimes 5 or more, I think that the record for a Finnsheep ewe are 9, but I know for sure that there has been at least one Swedish Finnsheep ewe that had 8 lambs. But due to that the lamb's legs and head/necks can become a little, so to say, entangled in each other, when they try to get out through the birth canal at the same time, as mentioned, you have to count on that ewes of such breeds might need help during lambing.

So I think that you need to choose if you want a breed with an average of 1 to 2 lambs, and with a less likelihood of needing intervention during lambing or if you want a breed with a higher average of lambs, but also with a higher likelihood of that you, or someone else, have to stick a hand/arm up inside the ewes bum to help the lambs out.  



Have you read this book The Sheep Book for Smallholders by Tim Tyne ? By the sound of it, it is a really good sheep book.


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## BWa (8 February 2013)

Not disagreeing FL, but we find that the ones with singles have the most difficulty lambing as they are trying to push out much larger lambs, where once you get into the triples and quads they tend to just spit them out! However ours are Mules x Suffolks so butchers lambs and out of reasonably sized sheep. 
Do agree with the poster about Mashams- we have 5 in our flick of 350, wild devils!


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## D66 (8 February 2013)

suestowford said:



			I like the Dorsets too, they are nice sheep.
Don't get Mashams, they're wild as hawks.
And remember what sheep do for a pastime...die.
		
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This^^^^

A sheep's mission statement is "Escape and Die".


You will have have to get a holding number and to take them to an abbatoir to be slaughtered.  Contact Trading Standards/Defra for animal health paperwork.


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## Dry Rot (8 February 2013)

I've had Lleyns and would have them again. Just make sure you buy off a good commercial reputable breeder.

Just remember, sheep need more than just counting once a day! There's clipping, dagging, lambing, foot trimming, dipping, speaning, worming, gathering, loading, burying, marketting, tupping, fencing, and probably a few more  I've forgotten about.

There's a real live professional shepherdess on here and, if you are lucky, she will be along soon.


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## Alec Swan (8 February 2013)

Generally speaking,  Suffolks excluded (they're ****ing hopeless) the bigger the sheep,  the easier they are to deal with and to handle.  They will also produce the more saleable and the better quality carcass.

Keeping quaint little native sheep,  is a complete waist of time.  I know what I'm doing,  I have a handful for a bit of fun (collies!),  but they are not for the inexperienced.

So,  which breeds?  In your shoes I'd source first cross ewes,  The Lleyn is a near perfect ewe.  Put to the Texel and kept is a ewe,  then she is perfect.  I had some Herdwicks once,  and never again.

If you have access to them,  and if you insist on going native,  then the Scotch Blackface is some sheep,  and they do eat well.

If you want something a bit more amenable,  try the Cheviot ewe.  The best would be the Lairg "type",  but they are all of the bigger bodied native type.

Let us know how you get on.

Alec.


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## FinnishLapphund (8 February 2013)

BWa said:



			Not disagreeing FL, but we find that the ones with singles have the most difficulty lambing as they are trying to push out much larger lambs, where once you get into the triples and quads they tend to just spit them out! However ours are Mules x Suffolks so butchers lambs and out of reasonably sized sheep.
		
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 I thought about beginning with writing something like : I don't know about other sheep breeds, but from what I've heard about Nordic sheep breeds...
But I forgot. 


So to clarify, if I want to buy sheeps in Sweden and wants a relatively easy breed, I would perhaps look at breeds like Gotland sheep, Gute sheep or Roslags sheep, they have a lower average number of lambs but in principle they take care of the lambing and their lambs themselves. 

However if I don't mind owning a breed that requires a considerable amount of time and care to get the best outcome from, then I would perhaps look at breeds like Finnsheep or Rya sheep, they have a higher average number of lambs but a higher risk that I will have to intervene during lambing and/or having a bunch of lambs that needs to be bottle-fed, because all the ewes have as many lambs as they can take care of.


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## LD&S (8 February 2013)

I've never kept sheep but was interested to see this 

http://www.easycaresheep.com/history-easy-care-sheep-breed


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## romulus (10 February 2013)

Hi 
I started with sheep 5 years ago by accident and now would not be without them.  I do not know about the perculiarites of different breeds but mine were all orphaned or rejected.  Ok hard work in the beginning and we lost some but my neighbour states that sheep were born to die! But mine all come to call and are very people orientated you can pick their feet up etc etc this 'training' did not take long but they are so easy to handle.  They repay me with lambs each year that go in the freezer so pay back is tremendous.  Good luck


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## Dry Rot (10 February 2013)

A neighbour told me he had some good advice from his father...."Don't keep anything you can't sell in the local market". In other words, keep the same breed of sheep as your neighbours. That is a bit extreme but generally good advice.

You don't say what sort of land you are on, which should be your first consideration. If you are in the hills, then choose a hardy breed. If lower down, you have wider choice.

I said Lleyns because they were a small holders' sheep. They are relatively docile, medium sized, have good wool, good mothers, easy lambing, milky (they used to be hand milked), and reasonably tough. The rams CAN jump but the ewes don't seem to be escape artists.

I'd avoid the Scottish Blackface, in spite of Alec's recommendation. They are a bit wild! I'd also avoid rare breeds unless you are committed. They are rare for a very good reason!


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## kat2290 (10 February 2013)

Thanks everybody for all the replies!

I don't seem to be coming to any conclusions, just going round and round in circles in my head! I have a feeling that this will continue until I just take the plunge and pick a breed and do it!!

In terms of land, they will be kept on lowlands as opposed to up on the fells but being in the Lake District our weather is pretty apauling for a large part of the year - hence wanting a breed that can cope with this without a purpose built shelter (but access to trees/hedges etc) 

At the moment I am edging towards getting some Herwicks, it makes sense as they are so easy to come by round here and I have been reading sales reports from our local livestock auction and they seem to sell well there...however that might be a bit irrelevant as I'm not planning on selling at auction...
Whilst they may not be the best breed for a beginner I do have a lot of knowledgable farmers around who are keen to help if needs be. Plus one of them has offered me his ram to use (think it is a texel) to get meatier lambs.

But! All the aside, I really like the look of hebrideans, and everything I have read about them so far seems to be good - apart from their size maybe. The only thing is I can't find anybody locally who is breeding them so I will need to do a bit more digging on that one. I guess even if I like them it doesn't make sense to get them if I'm going to struggle to get new stock.

Hmmm decisions decisions!


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## Dry Rot (10 February 2013)

Wait until lambing (not long now) and stick an advert in the paper for orphan lambs! At least, by weaning, they will be nice and tame. Pests, but tame pests!


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## cptrayes (10 February 2013)

Got a friend who got herdwicks two years ago, has great fencing, and never knows which field or neighbour's garden she will find them in each morning. I wouldn't if I were you 

Another friend whose husband keeps breeding Texels instead of the easy-lambing good-mother Mules that she wants is fed up with the additional work the Texels give her. Cute lambs though!


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## RutlandH2O (10 February 2013)

Most of the Herdwicks in Cumbria are hefted. That is, they know the land from where they come and stay there (pretty impossible to fence all the fells). I love them, and think they would be perfect for your environment, BUT, being inexperienced, you should go to the markets in your area and see what else is being produced and selling. Some of the breeds suggested here are lovely but may not be practical in your geographic location. Some of the smaller breeds, like the Soays and Hebrideans, are very wild and may not be as easy in heavy snow as some slightly larger, bigger-bodied sheep (I don't think the outer islands get the depth of snow that is typical of Cumbria). 

Dry Rot's first post is very good and important...there's a lot more to keeping sheep than just counting them once a day.

Good luck.


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## kat2290 (10 February 2013)

On my phone so can't quote but sadly we are lucky if it snows here at all! When it does we rarely get more than a couple of inches


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## Baggybreeches (12 February 2013)

I have Zwartbles, they are pretty easy to keep, the only thing I struggle with is manhandling them for stuff because I am only short (and female) and they are pretty hefty sheep. Most of mine are pretty docile but there is the odd scatty bint! If you are going to lamb yourself then be prepared as best you can be and make sure you get them warm and keep them warm (says the woman who sat outside with a fan heater for 2 hours last night!). Aside from that lambs tend to either bounce up or fade away.
If you only have a few it's really hard to get someone to shear them so it's worth getting in touch with some local shepherds to see if you can 'tag' on to their shearing days.
And feet are a nightmare in this weather, because they are just constantly wet.


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## RutlandH2O (12 February 2013)

Oooooh, Zwartbles! I love them...black, 4 whites and a blaze. Just like my Shires!!!


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## kat2290 (12 February 2013)

Ahh yeah I like zwartbles too, and I see they are sold at our local auction quite regularly so could be an option.

Still quite a way off actually buying anything yet though, need to have many more conversations with friendly farmer about land, general management and sending to slaughter etc before I jump in and commit!


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## Baggybreeches (12 February 2013)

kat2290 said:



			Ahh yeah I like zwartbles too, and I see they are sold at our local auction quite regularly so could be an option.

Still quite a way off actually buying anything yet though, need to have many more conversations with friendly farmer about land, general management and sending to slaughter etc before I jump in and commit!
		
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There is a breed sale at Carlisle in December if you need something to aim for? 
These are yesterday's lambs 
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?...121782577121.114783.1622522214&type=1&theater


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## kat2290 (12 February 2013)

N'awww! How cute are they!!


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## watertray53 (12 February 2013)

^^^^^^ I have zwartbles as well. They are the nicest, friendliest sheep you can find. Fantastic for the first time sheep owner ^^^^^^


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## Bramble74 (13 February 2013)

I had two Honey & Bramble, North of England Mules (Leiscester x Swaledale) for ten years, I lost both of them just before Christmas. I acquired them as two week old orphan lambs way back in 2002 and bottle fed them. They were easy to handle, friendly and took very little looking after. Plus plenty around Cumbria.

One thing to bear in mind if you are looking at keeping native breeds and especially Herdwicks on lowland grazing, is their diet.  They are designed to live on very sparse rough fell, when kept on better grass it can have a bad affect on their feet, with foot rot, abscesses etc.  This falls true to many of the hardier type of sheep.  The farmers have them up on the fell tops in the summer and only usually have them on the lowland grazing for a few months before lambing.

I know it certainly made a difference with my two keeping them with the horses, they were in the restricted grazing most of the year and even then the grass was too good for them.


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