# News on injured horses and riders at badminton



## Supertrooper (24 April 2011)

Just so people don't have to go traipsing through the huge XC post, can people post news updates on here perhaps.

I'd especially like to know how mandiba and partly pickled are and also how Elizabeth and camilla are xx


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## huntley (24 April 2011)

I agree - I am amazed the Badminton website has not been updated at all - after all, it is now an hour since the XC finished. There were some nasty falls and a surprising number of horses looking very tired - thank goodness it was not as hot as yesterday. Maybe the fast ground does tire them out more. I think Andreas Ostholt should be hauled before the Stewards for appalling riding!


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## JessandCharlie (24 April 2011)

Is there anywhere I can watch it online repeated does anyone know? It refused to work live 

Hope all the horses and riders are ok/on the mend. I didn't watch it, but it sounds like a lot had hic-hups

J&C


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## teapot (24 April 2011)

Mandiba supposedly has a broken rib but otherwise ok 

OT and ACM are both ok, just a little sore


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## sonjafoers (24 April 2011)

huntley said:



			I think Andreas Ostholt should be hauled before the Stewards for appalling riding!
		
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I absolutely agree. I'm sure I have seen him ride before & he was exactly the same then - if that's the case & my memory isn't failing me why is he allowed to continue? 

There was some excellent riding today but his was appalling and he really should be pulled up for it.


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## teapot (24 April 2011)

If my german's good enough, latest on Ingrid is that she had precautionary x-rays but she's most likely got a ligament injury rather than bone which is good news


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## teapot (24 April 2011)

And both Gemma Tattersall and King's Gem are both ok too


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## CastleMouse (24 April 2011)

Camilla was just winded and was looked after in the medical tent - She didn't need to go to hospital.

Esib Power was having x-rays earlier - Fingers crossed that it's nothing serious


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## CastleMouse (24 April 2011)

teapot said:



			Mandiba supposedly has a broken rib but otherwise ok
		
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I gasped in horror when he fell back - Poor lad  I was really surprised Karen didn't retire earlier.


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## teapot (24 April 2011)

CastleMouse said:



			Camilla was just winded and was looked after in the medical tent - She didn't need to go to hospital.

Esib Power was having x-rays earlier - Fingers crossed that it's nothing serious 

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Supposedly Camillia did go to hospital later on though, one assumes for precautionary reasons.


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## Santa_Claus (24 April 2011)

Phew bout camilla I saw the fall and v nasty. Hope hospital trip was precautionary and still ok.


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## amage (24 April 2011)

Camilla did go to hospital but will be discharged this eve. Elizabeth power is being kept in for observation but is ok...very very lucky! All Irish horses are fine thank god.


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## Supertrooper (24 April 2011)

Thank god camilla and elizabeth are ok.

Poor mandiba xx


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## only_me (24 April 2011)

teapot said:



			If my german's good enough, latest on Ingrid is that she had precautionary x-rays but she's most likely got a ligament injury rather than bone which is good news 

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 Ligament injures are often worse than a broken bone, and take longer to heal


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## sleepingdragon10 (24 April 2011)

CastleMouse said:



			I gasped in horror when he fell back - Poor lad 

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So did I........that had to hurt, poor lad


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## sleepingdragon10 (24 April 2011)

only_me said:



 Ligament injures are often worse than a broken bone, and take longer to heal 

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Indeed.
A friend of mine damaged ligaments in her knee falling off her horse a couple of months ago, and it isn't likely to be healed for another 3-4 months.


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## sonjafoers (24 April 2011)

Why on earth didn't she retire before that happened. I think she was one of the 2 worst today and now her poor horse is suffering when it could have been prevented. Such shame


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## teapot (24 April 2011)

I guess it is worse depending on what exactly she's done. Hope she bounces back asap as Ingrid's always worth a watch


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## only_me (24 April 2011)

Poor mandible


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## illy89 (24 April 2011)

My friend has been there this week helping Camilla and apparently she is in hospital with a broken collarbone but ok apart from that!


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## AFlapjack (24 April 2011)

sonjafoers said:



			Why on earth didn't she retire before that happened. I think she was one of the 2 worst today and now her poor horse is suffering when it could have been prevented. Such shame
		
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Hindsight is a wonderful thing!


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## teapot (24 April 2011)

Elizabeth Powell is reportedly absolutely fine despite the bang to her head (according to H&C on twitter). Good news


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## TGM (24 April 2011)

Supertrooper said:



			Poor mandiba xx
		
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It was horrible to see him go backwards off the bank like that - it did look like the air vest going off spooked him and contributed to his fall.  I really hope he is OK, and all the other horses/riders who were injured.


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## gem2buc (24 April 2011)

TGM said:



			It was horrible to see him go backwards off the bank like that - it did look like the air vest going off spooked him and contributed to his fall.  I really hope he is OK, and all the other horses/riders who were injured.
		
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Thats exactly what I thought at the time, as I could hear the air vest go off and he then went backwards. Didn't see the slow mo of it though.


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## Supertrooper (24 April 2011)

Ah, yes I bet it was the sound of the air jacket xx


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## kerilli (24 April 2011)

gem2buc said:



			Thats exactly what I thought at the time, as I could hear the air vest go off and he then went backwards. Didn't see the slow mo of it though.
		
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yes. very lucky he didn't break his back, poor lad.


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## teapot (24 April 2011)

kerilli said:



			yes. very lucky he didn't break his back, poor lad.
		
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Or neck, or leg(s)...


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## meardsall_millie (24 April 2011)

Supertrooper said:



			Ah, yes I bet it was the sound of the air jacket xx
		
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Oh yes bound to be.  Couldn't perhaps have been that the horse just stepped backwards in a bounce distance and slipped off the step could it?


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## Puppy (24 April 2011)

teapot said:



			Mandiba supposedly has a broken rib but otherwise ok
		
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That was a nasty fall  I do hope the horse's confidence isn't too knocked by it.


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## TGM (24 April 2011)

meardsall_millie said:



			Oh yes bound to be.  Couldn't perhaps have been that the horse just stepped backwards in a bounce distance and slipped off the step could it?
		
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In normal circumstances, most horses having just gone up a step, would have enough self-preservation instinct to realise going backwards was not a good idea, unless something else spooked them to react in panic.


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## millitiger (24 April 2011)

Good God I cannot believe the air jacket has been instantly blamed for that accident! 

Perhaps people should wait until the rider gives her opinion (although even then we will never know for sure)?

Lots of horses reverse when the rider comes off, particularly so if the rider is still holding onto the reins (as Karen was).

Millie reverses at high speed whenever I come off and has fallen into a ditch doing it before with no self preservation and no bang to make her do it.

Actually the only time she hasn't leggedit was when I came off last time and my p2 went off- should I credit it with being the reason she stood still? 

Hope all horses and riders injured are on the road to recovery and feeling better tomorrow.


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## kerilli (24 April 2011)

TGM said:



			In normal circumstances, most horses having just gone up a step, would have enough self-preservation instinct to realise going backwards was not a good idea, unless something else spooked them to react in panic.
		
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Agreed, i've never seen a horse do what he did, and i've watched a lot of horses stop at fences like that over the years...


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## meardsall_millie (24 April 2011)

millitiger said:



			Good God I cannot believe the air jacket has been instantly blamed for that accident! 

Millie reverses at high speed whenever I come off and has fallen into a ditch doing it before with no self preservation and no bang to make her do it.
		
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Completely agree.  I managed to fall off mine the other night and she reversed at a rate of knots (almost breaking my thumb which had got stuck in the reins in the process) - not sure where else this horse was supposed to go unless it stood stock still?


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## diggerbez (24 April 2011)

meardsall_millie said:



			Completely agree.  I managed to fall off mine the other night and she reversed at a rate of knots (almost breaking my thumb which had got stuck in the reins in the process) - not sure where else this horse was supposed to go unless it stood stock still?
		
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ditto this- my horse always legs it backwards when i come off- me falling off is enough to startle/scare him.... i didn't see the fall in question though but i do think its a bit unfair to say the P2 caused it...surely nobody could be sure???


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## thoroughlybred1 (24 April 2011)

Does anyone know where you can see a replay of Karen's fall? My first reaction was that she threw her reins at the horse in utter fustration that made him reverse and then fall


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## TGM (24 April 2011)

millitiger said:



			Good God I cannot believe the air jacket has been instantly blamed for that accident!
		
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If you read the posts properly I think you will see that no-one is 'instantly blaming' the air vest for what happened, but just suggested it MAY have been a contributory factor.


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## mbequest (24 April 2011)

My impression on mandibas fall was it was a tight bounce distance on top, he had 'bounced' off the log ontop and was very close to the drop when he tried to right himself. He stepped backwards with one hind leg whilst already off balance and he simply found nothing solid there and unfortunately fell off landing awkwardly with his midriff landing on the groundline. An unfortunate accident, but I do think she should have pulled up after the two stops.


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## henryhorn (24 April 2011)

I tend to agree with thoroughlybred1, it was my first thought that she chucked the reins in temper, her entire body language afterwards reeked of fury as she walked off with him. I do find it hard to see how she can reconcile her parelli videos with her eventing, the two styles are so far apart.. 
I hope he is ok, that looked a really horrible fall, I once had a horse fall from that height with me and it suffered hidden bruises for weeks, plus it tore the lining of it's throat on impact. (I ended up in hospital with concussion)
I bet there will be some very stiff and sore riders and horses tomorrow..


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## Puppy (24 April 2011)

I think (sadly) there may be a few fall foul to the trot up tomorrow.


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## sonjafoers (24 April 2011)

henryhorn can you elaborate a bit on her parelli videos as I was surprised to read that. Would be interested to know a bit more.


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## MurphysMinder (24 April 2011)

I've just watched Mandiba's fall again (I'd recorded it) .  I don't think the air jacket spooked him, he just ran back, and she didn't throw the reins at him, he was at full stretch away from her and I think she just let go and the release of the hold caused him to go over backwards.  Thats how it looked to me anyway.


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## galaxy (24 April 2011)

thoroughlybred1 said:



			Does anyone know where you can see a replay of Karen's fall? My first reaction was that she threw her reins at the horse in utter fustration that made him reverse and then fall
		
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I agree with the above and HH. 

To me it looked like the horse didn't run backwards until after she was on the floor, so the noise from the air jacket would have already happened.  She looked really mad

Will have to wait for a replay.


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## millitiger (24 April 2011)

TGM said:



			If you read the posts properly I think you will see that no-one is 'instantly blaming' the air vest for what happened, but just suggested it MAY have been a contributory factor.
		
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I did read the posts properly and IMO it seems like some people were attributing blame with the P2 for the incident without any proof or certainty-




			...it did look like the air vest going off spooked him and contributed to his fall...
		
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			Thats exactly what I thought at the time, as I could hear the air vest go off and he then went backwards...
		
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			Ah, yes I bet it was the sound of the air jacket xx
		
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## sonjafoers (24 April 2011)

AliceFlapjack said:



			Hindsight is a wonderful thing!
		
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Yes you're right AliceFlapjack, it was very easy for me to say that whilst sitting on the settee eating easter eggs! I'm sure the riders make judgements they may have made differently if they weren't on board.

Have I worded that right?!?


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## OneInAMillion (24 April 2011)

Did anyone see CS and Portersize JaJ's fall? I would just like to know what happened as I like to follow his career


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## measles (24 April 2011)

None of Camilla's round (or the super Lenamore) was shown as far as I could see from behind my Easter eggs


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## CastleMouse (24 April 2011)

I don't think it was the Air Jacket either. I'm not sure how long it would take for a broken rib to heal, but I'm sure his confidence has been severely knocked. He's only an 11 year old too, so it's a real pity 

One horse who's rider (I can't think of her name right now) hopped off without unclipping her Point 2 didn't even seem to notice the noise!


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## Supertrooper (24 April 2011)

Just to say I have nothing against P2's I actually think they are a fantastic invention but I still think the noise could cause a horse to spook xx


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## CastleMouse (24 April 2011)

measles said:



			None of Camilla's round (or the super Lenamore) was shown as far as I could see from behind my Easter eggs
		
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Some of Camilla's round was shown, and we only got to see the end of Lenamore's round


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## alfirules (24 April 2011)

hope all horses and riders make a full recovery. 

Which fence did karen o connors horse fell, i was at badminton, but did not hear what happened?


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## thoroughlybred1 (24 April 2011)

I have absolutely no knowledge of the air jackets at all, but i did think that the riders of those that activated from a minor fall or by accident looked pretty uncomfortable after activation! A couple looked positively in more pain than if they had hit the deck without it!


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## Hels_Bells (24 April 2011)

sonjafoers said:



			Yes you're right AliceFlapjack, it was very easy for me to say that whilst sitting on the settee eating easter eggs! I'm sure the riders make judgements they may have made differently if they weren't on board.

Have I worded that right?!?
		
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Poor Mandibas.  While I agree that hindsight is a great thing and we can all make wrong calls, I shouted at the TV at her second attempt at the flowery-pod things (forgive me not knowing the correct word of description) to stop and retire.  He had lost his energy and he was not up for it at all, it was dangerous to contine IMO.  I shouted at her to retire all the way from that fence until the fall.  I am usually the first to see both sides to an argument, decision etc but as far as I can see bad decision on her part, hindsight or not, and who's borne the brunt of it!!??  I just have so little sympathy for anyone pushing a tired horse like that.

Don't start me on the guy who clobbered his horse about 4 times between the quarry and the next fence to make it keep going.


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## kerilli (24 April 2011)

OneInAMillion said:



			Did anyone see CS and Portersize JaJ's fall? I would just like to know what happened as I like to follow his career
		
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someone who saw it said she was trying to anchor him and he wasn't having any of it, hit it and skidded across the top of the fence sideways. really hope they're both okay.

alfirules, he stopped twice at the same flower bed, then she got him over, then next fence was the big bank and he jumped up fine then stopped suddenly, she came off, i think she jerked the reins (not sure) and he stepped back fast and fell backwards down the big step, landed on his side on edge of ditch. got up immediately and set off down the course, but looked sore. she looked totally livid as she stalked after him...     he's a lovely horse but i think he's had too much too soon and hasn't got the bottle for it, no matter how good the jockey.


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## TGM (24 April 2011)

it did look like the air vest going off spooked him and contributed to his fall...  

Thats exactly what I thought at the time, as I could hear the air vest go off and he then went backwards...  

Ah, yes I bet it was the sound of the air jacket xx
		
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The first quote says "it did look like the air vest" ... "spooked him"

The second one says "I coudl hear the air vest go off and then went backwards"

The third one struck me as tongue-in-cheek!!

Quotes 1 & 2 just say what it looked like to viewers - no-one is saying that is what definitely caused it, but what it SEEMED like at the time.  Surely we are allowed to discuss what MAY have caused an accident?!  Personally, I am very much thinking of buying my daughter an air-vest so am not opposed to them at all, but do welcome frank and honest discussion about all the pros and cons so I can make an informed decision.


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## CastleMouse (24 April 2011)

alfirules said:



			hope all horses and riders make a full recovery. 

Which fence did karen o connors horse fell, i was at badminton, but did not hear what happened?
		
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Fence 11, the 'Outlander Bank'.


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## MollyMoomin (24 April 2011)

kerilli said:



			alfirules, he stopped twice at the same flower bed, then she got him over, then next fence was the big bank and he jumped up fine then stopped suddenly, she came off, i think she jerked the reins (not sure) and he stepped back fast and fell backwards down the big step, landed on his side on edge of ditch. got up immediately and set off down the course, but looked sore. she looked totally livid as she stalked after him...     he's a lovely horse but i think he's had too much too soon and hasn't got the bottle for it, no matter how good the jockey.
		
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Agree with this entirely, was also cross with David OConner who said that that was what made her a class rider compared with so many others who would have retired at that fence - she SHOULD have retired at that fence IMVHO.

Hope all horses & riders aren't too sore in the morning though.


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## brushingboots (24 April 2011)

Mandibas fall was really accidental - don't think P2 was a factor in it just so close to edge


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## Santa_Claus (24 April 2011)

Oneinmillion cant reply to pm as on phone but basically kerilli written what I saw. If confirmed she ok I will put the series of pics up late tomorrow or tues but won't till I know as think inappropriate to otherwise.


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## henryhorn (24 April 2011)

There were loads of vids of them training their horses using parelli a few years back, and the P people used them to boast about how their training works. I just found it odd that the actual way she rides has little relation to that video, and wondered if they no longer were fans..


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## Merlotmonster (24 April 2011)

The one that fell at the pick ups seemed to come in far too quickly and the horse was ignoring her signals.. Horrible fall and they were both very lucky. I was standing at the fence .


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## OneInAMillion (24 April 2011)

Santa_Claus said:



			Oneinmillion cant reply to pm as on phone but basically kerilli written what I saw. If confirmed she ok I will put the series of pics up late tomorrow or tues but won't till I know as think inappropriate to otherwise.
		
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Thanks S_C, have just read K's reply. And yep, I agree RE: pictures


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## dozzie (24 April 2011)

teapot said:



			Elizabeth Powell is reportedly absolutely fine despite the bang to her head (according to H&C on twitter). Good news 

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Very pleased to hear this. We were at the fence at the time. It was very worrying until we could see someone talking to her. Then "Phew!"

I was surprised Karen O'Connor carried on after her first two stops tbh. Maybe she felt she needed to re-establish confidence. (Again I was at the fence where he refused) I was not surprised when I heard she had retired and hoped he hadnt fallen. But as someone else said, hindsight is a wonderful thing and i am sure she is thinking she should have stopped after the first two refusals.
Now i will have to watch the highlights to see what happened!


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## Puppy (24 April 2011)

I was quite surprised at Karen carrying on too. I did feel rather sorry for David O'Connor trying to get out of the commentary box to go find her, and yet being asked to stay for further questions.


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## Santa_Claus (24 April 2011)

Merlot monster we were very close then! I was on the trailer siting in chair at front armed with big lens


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## Lolo (24 April 2011)

CastleMouse said:



			I don't think it was the Air Jacket either. I'm not sure how long it would take for a broken rib to heal, but I'm sure his confidence has been severely knocked. He's only an 11 year old too, so it's a real pity 

One horse who's rider (I can't think of her name right now) hopped off without unclipping her Point 2 didn't even seem to notice the noise!
		
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Alice Pearson on Beau Bear- horse didn't even flinch and it looked fairly full of running at the end so not too tired to bother, iyswim.


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## imafluffybunny (25 April 2011)

Im just surprised why there isnt a fining system in BE as there is in racing, if a horse is obviously tired, why is a rider allowed to ride it on until it falls.


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## rambling (25 April 2011)

thoroughlybred1 said:



			Does anyone know where you can see a replay of Karen's fall? My first reaction was that she threw her reins at the horse in utter fustration that made him reverse and then fall
		
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That was the way I saw it too , sadly.


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## Baggybreeches (25 April 2011)

henryhorn said:



			I tend to agree with thoroughlybred1, it was my first thought that she chucked the reins in temper, her entire body language afterwards reeked of fury as she walked off with him.
		
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I thought that, the horse looked like it was ready for a reaction from Karen, and took a step back as he probably thought he was going to get a sock in the teeth or something similar...


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## Puppy (25 April 2011)

kerilli said:



			she looked totally livid as she stalked after him...  

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Gosh yes, I said at the time her body language was like a dalek!   After a fall like that you'd think she'd be most concerned that he wasn't injured.


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## Charlie007 (25 April 2011)

Does anyone know how Partly Pickled (sp?) is? Looked quite lame after he was washed down. Hopefully just bruised.


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## Santa_Claus (25 April 2011)

Seen Louise s this morning with cracking black eye but overall ok. She was having her hat inspected to see what damage there was. Let's just say she needs a new one and it saved her from significant further injury!


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## BBP (25 April 2011)

My friend (Jiffs physio) has just told me that he is fit and well, no problems at all after his fall yesterday.  Said he got mega cocky after his run last year and thought he knew best at the pick-ups.  Luckily none the worse for wear but hopefully will listen to Camilla a little more next time!


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## MagicMelon (25 April 2011)

huntley said:



			I think Andreas Ostholt should be hauled before the Stewards for appalling riding!
		
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Totally agree. I also think OT was heading for his fall - his arms start flapping and he seems to always like going on a long one!  I dont know why, but I really dislike his way of riding.


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## Alec Swan (25 April 2011)

huntley said:



			....... I think Andreas Ostholt should be hauled before the Stewards for appalling riding!
		
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As do I.  It was shameful.

Alec.


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## kerilli (13 June 2011)

I'm just resurrecting this thread. 
Interesting that in this week's Horse and Hound article about broken ribs in horses (incl photos of the entire incident), it says:

"Karen believes Mandiba took fright at her air jacket going off while on top of the bank, which caused him to run backwards and fall.
'I reached forward to grab hold of him and as I did so the lanyon became detached and went off with a bang,' she said."


So, those of us who suspected that that was the cause, are actually backed up by the rider who was right there and knows the horse very well.


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## MagicMelon (13 June 2011)

kerilli said:



			I'm just resurrecting this thread. 
Interesting that in this week's Horse and Hound article about broken ribs in horses (incl photos of the entire incident), it says:

"Karen believes Mandiba took fright at her air jacket going off while on top of the bank, which caused him to run backwards and fall.
'I reached forward to grab hold of him and as I did so the lanyon became detached and went off with a bang,' she said."


So, those of us who suspected that that was the cause, are actually backed up by the rider who was right there and knows the horse very well.
		
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Exactly the reason I dont wear one of these. My horse would go absolutely nuts if he heard it go off.


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## kerilli (13 June 2011)

MagicMelon said:



			Exactly the reason I dont wear one of these. My horse would go absolutely nuts if he heard it go off.
		
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So would 1 of mine, i doubt the other would care. but the spooky one... i think i need to record a gunshot going off and play it repeatedly to desensitise her, otherwise someone else's airjacket going off in warm-up might cause us to have a major drama!
this was my biggest concern with them when the idea was first mooted, tbh.


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## *hic* (13 June 2011)

kerilli said:



			he stopped twice at the same flower bed, then she got him over, then next fence was the big bank and he jumped up fine then stopped suddenly, she came off, i think she jerked the reins (not sure) and he stepped back fast and fell backwards down the big step, landed on his side on edge of ditch. got up immediately and set off down the course, but looked sore. she looked totally livid as she stalked after him...     he's a lovely horse but i think he's had too much too soon and hasn't got the bottle for it, no matter how good the jockey.
		
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[youtube]PbYs3CchV8A[/youtube]

IMHO if you watch this you can hear the "phut" of the airjacket going off as the commentator says "Oooh" whilst she is still on top of the log, she can be seen partially inflated as she lands on the ground, then she steps towards the horse with her whip up. Now, I am NOT saying that she intended to hit the horse (her whip just happened to be there, how many of us would think to lower it after a fall like that?) or jerk the reins but he was obviously frightened of something and it could have been any one or combination of airbag, whip, reins and rider.

I do think that if the rider intended to say, in the H&H report, "He was fine until the airbag went off after I was off the log whilst I was approaching him on the bank" then another look by her at the footage is in order.

Other sets of eyes may read it differently from me of course

Just to add, of course if you want to appear aggressive and threatening to another animal then you make yourself seem as large as possible. Perhaps this is an as yet un-investigated downside to airbags?


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## Woodykat (13 June 2011)

What about the noise that the crowd makes when something like this happens? That many peopple going Oooh! and Eek! together makes a lot of noise - I wonder if this may have had any affect at the same time as the other factors?


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## Saratoga (13 June 2011)

He jumps back away from her, not the crowd. It's a matter of opinion I suppose if some people think it's because of the jacket exploding, and others think he is frightened of her coming at him with a whip.

My first thought when watching the vid was the jacket exploding made him jump backwards and fall off the step.


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## millitiger (13 June 2011)

I agree with you Jemima_too- I went and looked at Youtube after this thread was resurrected and imo there was a definite gap between the jacket going off the the horse going backwards- it did look more to me like he reacted to her reaching out for him for some reason.

I do worry about people hacking out if they are worried they can't control their horses when the noise occurs- what happens if you hack past a bird scarer?? 
A bird scarer is infinitely louder than an air jacket going off...?

And for what it's worth, my mare is super-reactive to noise (really struggles with tannoys at events) and was absolutely fine when my jacket exploded under her nose.


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## oldvic (13 June 2011)

Karen said that Mandiba was frightened by the air bag and she tried to hold him to stop him going back over the bank but he pulled back away from her. She also said that watching him fall was really scary, as was getting to him and seeing his injury, so maybe what some people interpreted as anger was, in fact, worry. Many people look quite fierce when they are anxious.
He is recovering well and will be going back to the States fairly soon.


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## kerilli (13 June 2011)

millitiger said:



			I agree with you Jemima_too- I went and looked at Youtube after this thread was resurrected and imo there was a definite gap between the jacket going off the the horse going backwards- it did look more to me like he reacted to her reaching out for him for some reason.

I do worry about people hacking out if they are worried they can't control their horses when the noise occurs- what happens if you hack past a bird scarer?? 
A bird scarer is infinitely louder than an air jacket going off...?

And for what it's worth, my mare is super-reactive to noise (really struggles with tannoys at events) and was absolutely fine when my jacket exploded under her nose.
		
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i'd never take my mare within a foot of a bird scarer. the airjacket is that close to the horse, huge difference imho. 
i defy anyone, however brilliant or experienced they think they are, to control a genuinely panicking horse. you have absolutely NO SAY at all. if you're lucky you remain a passenger until the flight instinct abates and the horse's usual rationality returns, until then you can do nothing.

i can't replay the vids at the moment for some reason, but i couldn't be sure about when the jacket went off when i watched previously. i'm very inclined to believe the very experienced rider's on-the-spot testimony though...


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## Lobelia_Overhill (13 June 2011)

Can we safely assume Karen won't be wearing an inflatable vest ever again, then?


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## millitiger (13 June 2011)

kerilli said:



			i'd never take my mare within a foot of a bird scarer. the airjacket is that close to the horse, huge difference imho. 
i defy anyone, however brilliant or experienced they think they are, to control a genuinely panicking horse. you have absolutely NO SAY at all. if you're lucky you remain a passenger until the flight instinct abates and the horse's usual rationality returns, until then you can do nothing.

i can't replay the vids at the moment for some reason, but i couldn't be sure about when the jacket went off when i watched previously. i'm very inclined to believe the very experienced rider's on-the-spot testimony though...
		
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I'm not saying you would take your horse right up to a bird scarer... obviously 

As I said a bird scarer is far louder than the air jacket if you were the same distance away, hence a bird scarer a few fields away is a similar noise to the air jacket going off next to you.

I do stick by my opinion that it is worrying if people are hacking and competing on horses that are so worried by a momentary noise that they would completely panic and lose their senses to the point where the rider has no control.


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## *hic* (13 June 2011)

kerilli said:



			i'd never take my mare within a foot of a bird scarer. the airjacket is that close to the horse, huge difference imho. 
i defy anyone, however brilliant or experienced they think they are, to control a genuinely panicking horse. you have absolutely NO SAY at all. if you're lucky you remain a passenger until the flight instinct abates and the horse's usual rationality returns, until then you can do nothing.

i can't replay the vids at the moment for some reason, but i couldn't be sure about when the jacket went off when i watched previously. i'm very inclined to believe the very experienced rider's on-the-spot testimony though...
		
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The airjacket is much quieter than a bird scarer. The bird scarers round us are audible from several fields away, yet two weekends ago I was a hundred yards from a fall and it wasn't until I got there to try to help that I realised the rider had an (inflated) jacket on, thank god, as he was under the horse, which was thrashing round trying to get up

And yes, a genuinely panicked horse is unstoppable by any human and a terrifying thing to deal with.

However when you can watch the vids again, do. I have no argument that the rider is very experienced and that, of course, she was there BUT she had just been through the stressful experience of two stops followed by a fall and then the chest hugging grip of the airjacket and I know that those circumstances can play tricks on one's recollection of the order of events. That's why I think all fences should have videos on them as those people watching falls often have different recollections of what happened even if they were watching from the same car, and that's different again from what the rider thought!

I'd be interested to know what you see when you can see the videos. The main thing is that the rider is fine and the horse recovering.


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## *hic* (13 June 2011)

Lobelia_Overhill said:



			Can we safely assume Karen won't be wearing an inflatable vest ever again, then?
		
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That will be an interesting one to watch.


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## Saratoga (13 June 2011)

I think it's the act of falling off, usually after a stop or fall of horse itself, which already unsettles/upsets most horses, coupled with the noise of the air jacket going off and the rider going rigid and blowing up in front of them that frightens the horse, as opposed to just the noise in something like a bird scarer.


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## kerilli (13 June 2011)

Saratoga said:



			I think it's the act of falling off, usually after a stop or fall of horse itself, which already unsettles/upsets most horses, coupled with the noise of the air jacket going off and the rider going rigid and blowing up in front of them that frightens the horse, as opposed to just the noise in something like a bird scarer.
		
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ditto this.
right, to explain further: of course i realise that a bird scarer is louder, but obviously it is also much further away. horses, being prey animals with great hearing, will regard a sudden noise very close to them as a far bigger threat than a louder noise a few fields away... 
BUT this particular mare of mine had a very heightened flight reflex. i've spent 5 years patiently downgrading it, and she doesn't flinch at bird scarers now. we have hacked within a field of them, at times within about 80 yards of one, but i don't trust that i've totally lobotomised that area of her brain! if i popped and inflated at her feet, I doubt she'd cope well.    
as for Karen, afaik she still wears an airjacket.


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## Katie_B (13 June 2011)

kerilli said:



			ditto this.
right, to explain further: of course i realise that a bird scarer is louder, but obviously it is also much further away. horses, being prey animals with great hearing, will regard a sudden noise very close to them as a far bigger threat than a louder noise a few fields away... 
BUT this particular mare of mine had a very heightened flight reflex. i've spent 5 years patiently downgrading it, and she doesn't flinch at bird scarers now. we have hacked within a field of them, at times within about 80 yards of one, but i don't trust that i've totally lobotomised that area of her brain! if i popped and inflated at her feet, I doubt she'd cope well.    
as for Karen, afaik she still wears an airjacket.
		
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You say this, however a horse I ride is the spookiest and most unpredictable horse I have ever sat on in my life. He is an absolute nightmare to take XC as you can never get into a rhythm as he is so busy looking at anything and everything, therefore I was a little concerned at how he would react if my jacket went off. However when I jumped off with it still attached BEFORE I went XC, he didn't even bat an eyelid, although I was absolutely furious with myself! 

At the time I was under the impression that there was a delay between the air jacket going off and him running backwards, but to be honest I haven't actually seen a slowed down version and it is difficult to see on the clip that has been posted.


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## kerilli (13 June 2011)

Katie_B said:



			You say this, however a horse I ride is the spookiest and most unpredictable horse I have ever sat on in my life. He is an absolute nightmare to take XC as you can never get into a rhythm as he is so busy looking at anything and everything, therefore I was a little concerned at how he would react if my jacket went off. However when I jumped off with it still attached BEFORE I went XC, he didn't even bat an eyelid, although I was absolutely furious with myself! 

At the time I was under the impression that there was a delay between the air jacket going off and him running backwards, but to be honest I haven't actually seen a slowed down version and it is difficult to see on the clip that has been posted.
		
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fair enough, but it's not a risk i am prepared to take with her - this mare bolted on her first day here as a yearling (got away from me when being led out to the field, with me wearing gloves and hat and her on a lunge line) i hung on till she pulled me over and started dragging me) and she then fell over at a flat out gallop and knocked all her top incisors out as they went through her top lip. seriously, she had an abnormal flight response for a domestic horse, put it that way... there's a reason why she hasn't been out in public yet, but before anyone else insinuates that it isn't safe to hack or compete a horse you can't trust not to panic, i have been working on it, and am still doing so.

still can't watch the clips as youtube is saying my version of Flash Player isn't good enough, even though I've just downloaded it to upgrade. flipping thing.


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## Weezy (13 June 2011)

I think the horse just backs up as horses do when we fall off, land on our feet and turn to face them, most of them back up a few stride, if not to get away from the fence that they had the altercation with, or just in submission - sadly there was a drop and the horse was not aware of it...must say I don't like horses who don't have a sense of awareness for what is behind them LOL!

You CAN clearly hear the air jacket go off whilst she is still in the air tho, that is a given.


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## Katie_B (13 June 2011)

kerilli said:



			fair enough, but it's not a risk i am prepared to take with her - this mare bolted on her first day here as a yearling (got away from me when being led out to the field, with me wearing gloves and hat and her on a lunge line) i hung on till she pulled me over and started dragging me) and she then fell over at a flat out gallop and knocked all her top incisors out as they went through her top lip. seriously, she had an abnormal flight response for a domestic horse, put it that way... there's a reason why she hasn't been out in public yet, but before anyone else insinuates that it isn't safe to hack or compete a horse you can't trust not to panic, i have been working on it, and am still doing so.
		
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I can sympathise with you! Ours was not allowed out to a party until he was at least 7 or 8 i think. Before that he was just absolutely lethal, and hospitalised my poor mum a couple of times! He isn't naughty, just a complete nervous wreck and I suppose the only reason we have persevered for so long is because he is talented...oh and the fact that we bred him, so there is nobody else we can blame for his behaviour unfortunately! It has been a permanent cycle of success and utter frustration, but I am hoping that we will get there some day!


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