# Welfare issues with polo?



## cptrayes (15 July 2014)

I saw a picture in the paper yesterday of Prince Harry on a polo pony and it really disturbed me.

The pony had on the following tack:

- side reins, quite short
- cavesson noseband with short standing martingale attached
- drop noseband closing the mouth on a Cheltenham gag bit.

It looked like a turkey trussed up for Christmas 

If polo requires this level of tack to play , is it right? Is there a reason why it  can't be played without strapping  the horse down to within an inch of its life?


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## Moomin1 (15 July 2014)

I'm not a fan myself.  Awful 'sport'.


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## SpringArising (15 July 2014)

Don't like it either. All that yanking makes me flinch and cringe.


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## Nicky44 (15 July 2014)

I went to a polo match once and saw the ponies tied up, they looked so sad. They rent out a team of polo ponies now, saves people buying them and there ridden by all sorts without any care for the horse :-( very sad.


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## miss_c (15 July 2014)

cptrayes said:



			I saw a picture in the paper yesterday of Prince Harry on a polo pony and it really disturbed me.

The pony had on the following tack:

- side reins, quite short
- cavesson noseband with short standing martingale attached
- drop noseband closing the mouth on a Cheltenham gag bit.

It looked like a turkey trussed up for Christmas 

If polo requires this level of tack to play , is it right? Is there a reason why it  can't be played without strapping  the horse down to within an inch of its life?
		
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You sure it was side reins?  I used to play and have never seen a pony in side reins, but draw reins through the gag along with reins attached to the gag are common.

Re the martingale - I was always taught it was to prevent the pony's head going too high and interfering with the shot/rider.

My old polo mare would get incredibly excited at a match - before chukkas started she would be bouncing on the spot and squeaking.  I rode her in a Pelham instead of a gag and the only time I would touch her mouth was to stop, and that was in conjunction with shifting my weight back.  Turning was done off of my weight and neck reining.  

These ponies are extremely fit and extremely responsive.  It is a fast game and they need to be able to stop and turn on a sixpence when required.  You quite simply wouldn't be able to stop some of the ponies I played in less tack when playing chukkas, but I would exercise my mare in a snaffle on a loose rein.  Pony welfare is taken extremely seriously and clubs will have a welfare officer.  Yes there will be incidents as there are in any equine sport, but at the top levels especially those ponies are worth a FORTUNE and are incredibly well looked after.


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## AdorableAlice (15 July 2014)

miss_c said:



			You sure it was side reins?  I used to play and have never seen a pony in side reins, but draw reins through the gag along with reins attached to the gag are common.

Re the martingale - I was always taught it was to prevent the pony's head going too high and interfering with the shot/rider.

My old polo mare would get incredibly excited at a match - before chukkas started she would be bouncing on the spot and squeaking.  I rode her in a Pelham instead of a gag and the only time I would touch her mouth was to stop, and that was in conjunction with shifting my weight back.  Turning was done off of my weight and neck reining.  

These ponies are extremely fit and extremely responsive.  It is a fast game and they need to be able to stop and turn on a sixpence when required.  You quite simply wouldn't be able to stop some of the ponies I played in less tack when playing chukkas, but I would exercise my mare in a snaffle on a loose rein.  Pony welfare is taken extremely seriously and clubs will have a welfare officer.  Yes there will be incidents as there are in any equine sport, but at the top levels especially those ponies are worth a FORTUNE and are incredibly well looked after.
		
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Well said.  It should also be remembered that polo provides a future for many failed racehorses.


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## amandap (15 July 2014)

cptrayes said:



			I saw a picture in the paper yesterday of Prince Harry on a polo pony and it really disturbed me.
		
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Not 100% sure if my memory is correct re it being Harry but did you miss the photos of the bleeding spur marks a couple of years ago?
I think there are welfare questions to be answered but there are good yards and riders as well.


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## LittleRooketRider (15 July 2014)

yes i am also ware that the martingale is used to prevebnt the horse heads coming too high resulting in potential injuries to the horse as well as interfering with the horse. ponies are looked after very well and not just because of their value the stronger bits actually allow a lighter contact and aids to be light as opposed to constantly pulling..besides riders mostly ride with adjustments of the seat and neck reining as previously stated


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## Moomin1 (15 July 2014)

All you need to do is take one look at a single photo of a polo pony during play..doesn't make comfortable viewing IMO.


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## Honey08 (15 July 2014)

I don't know enough about it to really have an opinion, but regarding the comments of them needing to make sudden turns and stops, it made me think of gymkhana games, which require the same (and are often kids on fizzy ponies) yet they have to be in snaffles..


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## cptrayes (15 July 2014)

Absolutely definitely fixed length, and short, dark leather side reins.

This wasn't the picture but it's similar


http://cdn.sheknows.com/filter/l/gallery/prince_harry_polo_match.jpg


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## Elf On A Shelf (15 July 2014)

I feel sorry for the Polo ponies opposite the yard. There are about 20 of them in a 3acre bald field with 2 bales of mouldy hayledge and ripped rugs on 24/7 and are only ever dealt with when they are brought in for work. They always look so depressed.


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## AdorableAlice (15 July 2014)

Moomin1 said:



			All you need to do is take one look at a single photo of a polo pony during play..doesn't make comfortable viewing IMO.
		
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Let's tie them all up on the side of the motorway then.  Just what do some of you think horses should do ?, judging by some threads and comments it seems a horse should be covered in bling, pampered like lap dogs and never do a honest days work in it's life.

Ban racing, ban polo, ban hunting etc.  There goes the equine industry and the country will have an excess of dog food.


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## miss_c (15 July 2014)

cptrayes said:



			Absolutely definitely fixed length, and short, dark leather side reins.
		
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I'd be interested to see that photo.  I'm not saying you're wrong, it's just something I've never seen and I don't see how the pony could stretch to gallop if fixed with side reins.


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## Honey08 (15 July 2014)

EKW said:



			I feel sorry for the Polo ponies opposite the yard. There are about 20 of them in a 3acre bald field with 2 bales of mouldy hayledge and ripped rugs on 24/7 and are only ever dealt with when they are brought in for work. They always look so depressed.
		
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I worked on a pro event yard many years ago and the owner had polo ponies too.  They were very well, very happy and much loved, both by the groom and the owner.


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## cptrayes (15 July 2014)

AdorableAlice said:



			Let's tie them all up on the side of the motorway then.  Just what do some of you think horses should do ?, judging by some threads and comments it seems a horse should be covered in bling, pampered like lap dogs and never do a honest days work in it's life.

Ban racing, ban polo, ban hunting etc.  There goes the equine industry and the country will have an excess of dog food.
		
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Errrrr......   pay polo without the bondage gear?  Ride with skill instead of straps?


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## Elf On A Shelf (15 July 2014)

Honey08 said:



			I worked on a pro event yard many years ago and the owner had polo ponies too.  They were very well, very happy and much loved, both by the groom and the owner.
		
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Oh I have no doubt that they are being looked after and that most other yards look after their ponies very well, I just see these ponies every day and feel sorry for them 'tis all.


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## Moomin1 (15 July 2014)

AdorableAlice said:



			Let's tie them all up on the side of the motorway then.  Just what do some of you think horses should do ?, judging by some threads and comments it seems a horse should be covered in bling, pampered like lap dogs and never do a honest days work in it's life.

Ban racing, ban polo, ban hunting etc.  There goes the equine industry and the country will have an excess of dog food.
		
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'Doing and honest days work' does not have to involve poor welfare standards.


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## cptrayes (15 July 2014)

miss_c said:



			I'd be interested to see that photo.  I'm not saying you're wrong, it's just something I've never seen and I don't see how the pony could stretch to gallop if fixed with side reins.
		
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Express online have cropped the pic to eliminate the horse, but to be honest I don't see that draw reins are a lot better from the welfare point of view, it's all to enable the horse to be hauled around by its mouth without any escape.


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## nikkimariet (15 July 2014)

cptrayes said:



			Absolutely definitely fixed length, and short, dark leather side reins.

This wasn't the picture but it's similar






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Not got my glasses to hand but PH is holding 2 reins. One is the rein from the polo gag. The other is the running rein attached under saddle flaps. Doesn't look fixed length to me?

Not same horse (or potentially same match, not looked into it that much), but here:







Is exactly the same set up albeit with a pelham. Reins are not fixed length!


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## miss_c (15 July 2014)

Well that appears to be the pony in the cropped picture, wearing draw reins from the saddle, through the bit to his hands - the Rundle Cup (Armed Forces match) on I think it was Saturday.


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## miss_c (15 July 2014)

cptrayes said:



			Absolutely definitely fixed length, and short, dark leather side reins.

This wasn't the picture but it's similar


http://cdn.sheknows.com/filter/l/gallery/prince_harry_polo_match.jpg

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That's also draw reins from saddle to bit to hand...


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## Doormouse (15 July 2014)

I have worked in polo and I can promise you that most (probably not all as is the case in all spheres) love the game.

When they stand in the pony lines they are not depressed, they are being sensible and relaxing after their chukka. As a general rule polo ponies are very sensible, they have a job of work to do when they play for 7 mins during a chukka which is fast and furious, when they come off the pitch they immediately relax and often fall asleep in the lines.

I have ridden and played older ponies who are so good at their job they will put you in the right place to hit the ball and if they think you are about to miss will kick it for you.

Nearly all the ex racehorses that I have been involved with when retraining as polo ponies are settled, happy and generally ridden about in a head collar!

Their tack varies, the standing martingale is to prevent them throwing up their head when a player is taking a shot. Please tell me what is wrong with standing martingales? Old fashioned maybe but very useful in their place IMO.  Bits are either gags or Pelhams, whichever suits the horse best, both bits that are regularly used in other spheres with no ill effect or indeed judgemental comments. A drop noseband keeps the mouth from opening, just the same as a flash or a grackle, noseband that pretty much every horse seems to wear these days regardless of need.  Obviously a standing martingale cannot be attached to a drop noseband so a cavasson is worn as well.

As in every sphere there are bad yards and bad players but before you judge I strongly suggest that you go and work in a polo yard, ride the ponies, groom for a few matches and even try a game yourself. If you are still of the same opinion then at least you will be speaking with a little knowledge.


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## cptrayes (15 July 2014)

miss_c said:



			That's also draw reins from saddle to bit to hand...
		
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Yes I know, but the Express have cropped the picture that was in the paper.

As I said, I don't see draw reins as any better anyway.

Why can't they play without these straps, just pay a slower game? As long as both sides are the same, what would the problem be? As someone has pointed out, the mounted games ponies do as much gymnastics.


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## Doormouse (15 July 2014)

miss_c said:









Well that appears to be the pony in the cropped picture, wearing draw reins from the saddle, through the bit to his hands - the Rundle Cup (Armed Forces match) on I think it was Saturday.
		
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These are running reins, often used on ponies who leap if over contained. They are not as harsh as draw reins and aid the player in keeping the horse calmer as they take a shot.


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## cptrayes (15 July 2014)

miss_c said:









Well that appears to be the pony in the cropped picture, wearing draw reins from the saddle, through the bit to his hands - the Rundle Cup (Armed Forces match) on I think it was Saturday.
		
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The pony in the paper was white.


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## AdorableAlice (15 July 2014)

and may I add to Doormouse's excellent post, that many ponies, after retirement go to homes where they are used as safe all rounders and hacks.  There is a a rehoming polo pony group which is very interesting to read about on facebook.


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## cptrayes (15 July 2014)

The polo supporters on this thread have found some lovely pictures of happy horses. Can we please have a comment on the myriad pictures that are available showing polo ponies being hauled around by their mouths, made possible by so many straps they look like they are in a bondage movie?


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## miss_c (15 July 2014)

cptrayes said:



			The pony in the paper was white.
		
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Again, draw reins (Doormouse we've always used draw/running reins interchangeably!  ) from saddle to bit to hand......


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## Moomin1 (15 July 2014)

What is interesting is that where a pic of a polo pony wearing all the tack is shown, ears touching the clouds, mouth wide open, teeth on show, looking generally very uncomfortable, it seems acceptable.  If someone put a thread up on this forum showing the very same image, but in the context of them just schooling at home, then there would be a major uproar....


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## cptrayes (15 July 2014)

miss_c said:









Again, draw reins (Doormouse we've always used draw/running reins interchangeably!  ) from saddle to bit to hand......
		
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That was not the picture, the horse was stood still.  In any case, how many times?, I do not see draw reins as any better.  WHY CANY YOU PLAY WITHOUT THE BONDAGE?


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## Doormouse (15 July 2014)

cptrayes said:



			The polo supporters on this thread have found some lovely pictures of happy horses. Can we please have a comment on the myriad pictures that are available showing polo ponies being hauled around by their mouths, made possible by so many straps they look like they are in a bondage movie?
		
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Have you ever played polo? Have you ever ridden a polo pony that is currently playing polo? Have you ever spoken to a polo player or trainer about how they train and ride the ponies?

If not and you are making all these judgements on photos alone perhaps you would like to search the myriad of photos online of event ers back teeth being hauled out when someone has missed a stride, show jumpers on the floor mixed up in poles, dressage horses rearing ....... Shall I go on?


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## miss_c (15 July 2014)

cptrayes said:



			That was not the picture, the horse was stood still.
		
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No but it is the only grey he played at the Rundle Cup so would be the same pony and I doubt he would have changed tack mid-match.


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## Moomin1 (15 July 2014)

Doormouse said:



			Have you ever played polo? Have you ever ridden a polo pony that is currently playing polo? Have you ever spoken to a polo player or trainer about how they train and ride the ponies?

If not and you are making all these judgements on photos alone perhaps you would like to search the myriad of photos online of event ers back teeth being hauled out when someone has missed a stride, show jumpers on the floor mixed up in poles, dressage horses rearing ....... Shall I go on?
		
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Very true - there are instances of all of the above. However, generally, the overall picture of a polo match is a lot more unpleasant than any of the above sports.  It is far more common to see an uncomfortable looking polo pony during a match than it is to see an uncomfortable looking horse during SJ, eventing etc etc.  Though that is not to say for one minute you don't get examples within those sports.


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## cptrayes (15 July 2014)

two wrongs don't make a right. I do not see why I cannot make a judgement from photos, when the photos are so very, very prevalent.

Please answer the question. Why can you not play the game without the bondage?


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## miss_c (15 July 2014)

Doormouse said:



			Have you ever played polo? Have you ever ridden a polo pony that is currently playing polo? Have you ever spoken to a polo player or trainer about how they train and ride the ponies?

If not and you are making all these judgements on photos alone perhaps you would like to search the myriad of photos online of event ers back teeth being hauled out when someone has missed a stride, show jumpers on the floor mixed up in poles, dressage horses rearing ....... Shall I go on?
		
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Well said.


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## Doormouse (15 July 2014)

cptrayes said:



			two wrongs don't make a right. I do not see why I cannot make a judgement from photos, when the photos are so very, very prevalent.

Please answer the question. Why can you not pay the game without the bondage?
		
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What makes you assume the bondage is cruel?

How many horses eventing, hunting, showjumping, showing and hacking wear gags or Pelhams? Is this bondage?

How many horses as above wear a flash or grackle noseband? Is this bondage?

How many horses are schooled in draw / running reins? Approve or not is this a welfare issue?

A horse can be pulled about appallingly in a snaffle by a rider with bad hands.


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## cptrayes (15 July 2014)

miss_c said:



			No but it is the only grey he played at the Rundle Cup so would be the same pony and I doubt he would have changed tack mid-match.
		
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OK they were draw reins, how many more times do I have to say that it does not change my point of view that these horses are strapped down so that their riders can haul them around the pitch ? And that I cannot see the point as long as both sides are banned from all that extraneous tack.


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## Billabongchick (15 July 2014)

Good post by Doormouse. Those are definitely running reins in all the photos and I've never seen a polo pony in side reins; they just wouldn't allow the flexibility of movement required for the game. I've worked as a polo groom and professional polo photographer at the big matches in both in the UK and in New Zealand and the ponies were treated well. As with any equestrian sport if the horse doesn't enjoy that particular discipline then you won't get very far with it! Most of mine loved the game and if they didn't they were rehomed as kids hacks etc. Also as with any equestrian sport you get good riders/bad riders with good or bad hands. 

As someone also said above you only use direct contact with the bit to stop and a good pony will do a sliding stop like a western horse which is directed more by the rider sitting back than by hauling on the mouth. My ponies were all very happy and well cared for and their fitness was taken very seriously with long programmes of hill work etc to get them in the best shape to play the season with minimal injuries. Out of 14 I looked after in NZ one did a tendon towards the end and one 4yo had splints; I maybe had one cut corner of a mouth all season - I don't think that represents bad welfare issues...


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## Moomin1 (15 July 2014)

Doormouse said:



			What makes you assume the bondage is cruel?
		
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Probably the same thing that makes any reasonable horse person to assume it would be cruel to haul your horse around in similar ways whilst just out on a hack, or schooling at home.  

Seriously, if someone did post a thread up on hho showing them schooling their horse at home in all that tack, with the horse's mouth being hauled out, then they would be blasted.


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## cptrayes (15 July 2014)

Doormouse said:



			What makes you assume the bondage is cruel?
		
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The photos of horses clearly being hauled about by their mouths, which if you insist I can rapidly find a hundred or more of on Google.

Can't you SEE it when you see photos of polo games, or have you just became blind to it?


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## cptrayes (15 July 2014)

Can someone please answer the question. Why can you not play without all those straps?


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## Doormouse (15 July 2014)

cptrayes said:



			The photos of horses clearly being hauled about by their mouths, which if you insist I can rapidly find a hundred or more of on Google.

Can't you SEE it when you see photos of polo games, or have you just became blind to it?
		
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Why do they enjoy the game so much then if they are really being abused for 7 minutes as you are saying. And you cannot possibly make a judgement on their enjoyment of it until you have spent some time with playing ponies. No photo will tell you that.


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## Moomin1 (15 July 2014)

Doormouse said:



			Why do they enjoy the game so much then if they are really being abused for 7 minutes as you are saying. And you cannot possibly make a judgement on their enjoyment of it until you have spent some time with playing ponies. No photo will tell you that.
		
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Oh the good old 'they enjoy it' argument.  Now that really is a load of tosh.  Out of interest, have any of these ponies told you they enjoy it?  Or is it something to do with the fact they 'get excitable and charge about' during matches (just like the good old argument about why race horses continue to run riderless..of course it MUST be the fact that they are enjoying it...).


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## cptrayes (15 July 2014)

Doormouse said:



			Why do they enjoy the game so much then if they are really being abused for 7 minutes as you are saying. And you cannot possibly make a judgement on their enjoyment of it until you have spent some time with playing ponies. No photo will tell you that.
		
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No answer to the question then, why you have to play with all those straps?


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## Doormouse (15 July 2014)

cptrayes said:



			Can someone please answer the question. Why can you not play without all those straps?
		
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Probably could, don't supposed anyone has tried as have never seen it as a welfare issue anymore than the eventers would be unlikely to go cross country in a bitless bridle or showjumping at high level or high level dressage in a snaffle. Probably the most natural horse from a tack point of view are the endurance horses.

I think that much of the tack situation in many areas is tradition, the bitless bridle and barefoot thing is relatively new to the market.

If you really believe it is a welfare case why don't you take up polo in a snaffle or bitless bridle or micklem and prove your point.


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## Mariposa (15 July 2014)

I've been involved with polo - be it grooming or playing - for 20 odd years and I've never seen a pony play in side reins, those are running reins. I play all my ponies in gags and running reins, it keeps me and them safe to be able to stop and check quickly, but the rest of the time there is no contact on their mouths. I don't consider this bondage any more than I would consider an eventer in a Dutch gag or grakle in 'bondage'. In any discipline there are people who do not treat horses to the standards we would hope for, but the majority of polo ponies I know are loved, cared for beautifully, and have a good life. We certainly spoil our lot, probably far too much, because at the end of the day without them we are nothing.


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## miss_c (15 July 2014)

Moomin1 said:



			Oh the good old 'they enjoy it' argument.  Now that really is a load of tosh.  Out of interest, have any of these ponies told you they enjoy it?  Or is it something to do with the fact they 'get excitable and charge about' during matches (just like the good old argument about why race horses continue to run riderless..of course it MUST be the fact that they are enjoying it...).
		
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My mare would bounce on the spot and squeak before a chukka started...


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## Moomin1 (15 July 2014)

Doormouse said:



			Probably could, don't supposed anyone has tried as have never seen it as a welfare issue anymore than the eventers would be unlikely to go cross country in a bitless bridle or showjumping at high level or high level dressage in a snaffle. Probably the most natural horse from a tack point of view are the endurance horses.

I think that much of the tack situation in many areas is tradition, the bitless bridle and barefoot thing is relatively new to the market.

If you really believe it is a welfare case why don't you take up polo in a snaffle or bitless bridle or micklem and prove your point.
		
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I'm sorry, am I misunderstanding your point? Are you actually suggesting that if someone finds it difficult to ride a polo pony in a snaffle, then it must mean that it is not a welfare concern to ride it in stronger tack?!


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## Doormouse (15 July 2014)

Moomin1 said:



			Oh the good old 'they enjoy it' argument.  Now that really is a load of tosh.  Out of interest, have any of these ponies told you they enjoy it?  Or is it something to do with the fact they 'get excitable and charge about' during matches (just like the good old argument about why race horses continue to run riderless..of course it MUST be the fact that they are enjoying it...).
		
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Have you ever spent anytime with polo ponies?  It is very easy to judge from your armchair but also very wrong and you are doing the horse world a great disservice by judging without proper knowledge and experience. 

I know nothing about dressage horses, they seem to me to look very wound up all the time and under a lot of pressure. However, I would never judge because I simple don't know enough about them to do so.


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## Moomin1 (15 July 2014)

miss_c said:



			My mare would bounce on the spot and squeak before a chukka started...
		
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And this automatically means she must love playing polo of course.....


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## Doormouse (15 July 2014)

Moomin1 said:



			I'm sorry, am I misunderstanding your point? Are you actually suggesting that if someone finds it difficult to ride a polo pony in a snaffle, then it must mean that it is not a welfare concern to ride it in stronger tack?!
		
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Is it then a welfare issue to ride an eventer in a stronger bit cross country?


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## Moomin1 (15 July 2014)

Doormouse said:



			Have you ever spent anytime with polo ponies?  It is very easy to judge from your armchair but also very wrong and you are doing the horse world a great disservice by judging without proper knowledge and experience. 

I know nothing about dressage horses, they seem to me to look very wound up all the time and under a lot of pressure. However, I would never judge because I simple don't know enough about them to do so.
		
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I take it you wouldn't judge about rollkur then either?

And I have to say, the majority of polo ponies I have come across are well looked after, however they are physically knackered, battered and pretty shot by the end of their career.


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## Moomin1 (15 July 2014)

Doormouse said:



			Is it then a welfare issue to ride an eventer in a stronger bit cross country?
		
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Yes - if it spends most of it's time looking like it's having it's gob hauled from here to next year...like most polo ponies do in every single match viewed.


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## Brownmare (15 July 2014)

I have worked with polo ponies - and I will never do so again. In the one season I was there 4 ponies were killed from a single yard: 2 fell during play and broke shoulders (one of which when the rider specifically told the groom to take the studs out as he didn't need them), 1 died of ruptured kidneys when a player from the opposing team brought his stick down on the ponies back deliberately and the last did a tendon catastrophically.

Not only that but when there was a tournament at the local club we had visiting horses stabled with us. One had a tongue semi-severed from a bit injury and another had a 4" split up its cheek from the corner of its mouth, again from a bit injury.

At the end of the season, grazing was found for the ponies and they were to be left there for the winter. At the start of the season, a couple of the ponies were so thin it was 3 months begore they could go out in public.

No opinions there, only facts, but fairly damning don't you think?


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## Suelin (15 July 2014)

AdorableAlice said:



			Let's tie them all up on the side of the motorway then.  Just what do some of you think horses should do ?, judging by some threads and comments it seems a horse should be covered in bling, pampered like lap dogs and never do a honest days work in it's life.

Ban racing, ban polo, ban hunting etc.  There goes the equine industry and the country will have an excess of dog food.
		
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This absolutely.


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## smellsofhorse (15 July 2014)

Doormouse said:



			Probably could, don't supposed anyone has tried as have never seen it as a welfare issue anymore than the eventers would be unlikely to go cross country in a bitless bridle or showjumping at high level or high level dressage in a snaffle. Probably the most natural horse from a tack point of view are the endurance horses.

I think that much of the tack situation in many areas is tradition, the bitless bridle and barefoot thing is relatively new to the market..
		
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That's argument is not relevant, many people would like to compete bitless but current rules do not allow, although I hear there are petitions and it's being looked into.

I an in the school of though that you start with the minimal tack and only ass what's needed and try to school and teach horse to go nicely with out gadgets.

What do they use all of the "bondage" just because it's normal?

Why not be an accretion to the norm and start. New craz by using the basics and impressing people with skill?


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## Doormouse (15 July 2014)

Moomin1 said:



			I take it you wouldn't judge about rollkur then either?

And I have to say, the majority of polo ponies I have come across are well looked after, however they are physically knackered, battered and pretty shot by the end of their career.
		
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No I wouldn't because I have never seen it first hand and have never discussed with anyone their reasons behind it.

A lot of horses are knackered and shot by the end of their careers, I've had plenty from many different areas of the horse world.


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## cptrayes (15 July 2014)

Doormouse said:



			If you really believe it is a welfare case why don't you take up polo in a snaffle or bitless bridle or micklem and prove your point.
		
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Frankly, what a pathetic argument. The straps are to gain greater control over the horse, so anyone who doesn't use them would be unsafe in the faster game that can be played with them on. Suicidal, I am not.

Now please , can you answer the question. Why can you not play the game with neither team using the bondage?


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## miss_c (15 July 2014)

Moomin1 said:



			And this automatically means she must love playing polo of course.....
		
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Yes she did before she was killed 6 years ago. No different to an event horse being excited before cross country.


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## Suelin (15 July 2014)

AdorableAlice said:



			and may I add to Doormouse's excellent post, that many ponies, after retirement go to homes where they are used as safe all rounders and hacks.  There is a a rehoming polo pony group which is very interesting to read about on facebook.
		
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This also.  We have one enjoying a very settled happy retirement.


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## palo1 (15 July 2014)

cptrayes said:



			Can someone please answer the question. Why can you not play without all those straps?
		
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Well, you can and lots of people do but perhaps not at the big matches. As others have said, a great deal of riding in polo is done with weight and neck reining. When I played at uni, tack was fairly straightforward and we always got *******ed for any unintentional hauling of ponies. Polo players have big egos and are a very competitive lot but they really do know the value of a good pony. It is utterly counter-productive to make its job or attitude harder. You often see awful pictures, I agree but they are seconds in time. I see awful pictures of unhappy dressage horses, horrible falls in eventing etc too. 2 wrongs don't make a right, you are right but I think it helps to have a perspective other than sensational pictures of high goal/celebrity matches. The  ponies I learnt on were cared for and valued in a pretty impressive way. And they adored playing too!


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## Zero00000 (15 July 2014)

Llama


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## Doormouse (15 July 2014)

palo1 said:



			Well, you can and lots of people do but perhaps not at the big matches. As others have said, a great deal of riding in polo is done with weight and neck reining. When I played at uni, tack was fairly straightforward and we always got *******ed for any unintentional hauling of ponies. Polo players have big egos and are a very competitive lot but they really do know the value of a good pony. It is utterly counter-productive to make its job or attitude harder. You often see awful pictures, I agree but they are seconds in time. I see awful pictures of unhappy dressage horses, horrible falls in eventing etc too. 2 wrongs don't make a right, you are right but I think it helps to have a perspective other than sensational pictures of high goal/celebrity matches. The  ponies I learnt on were cared for and valued in a pretty impressive way. And they adored playing too!
		
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Excellently said.


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## cptrayes (15 July 2014)

Doormouse said:



			Probably could, don't supposed anyone has tried as have never seen it as a welfare issue anymore than the eventers would be unlikely to go cross country in a bitless bridle or showjumping at high level or high level dressage in a snaffle.
		
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WOW, and you think I don't know what I'm talking about 

For your info, there are plenty of eventers and jumpers who go bitless, though the vast majority are in snaffles. And until recently double bridles were mandatory at higher levels in dressage, but since that rule was relaxed there are more also plenty of grand prix horses doing dressage in a snaffle. Though you might like to note that a double bridle is for fine tuning, not for hauling the horse around the arena. Any dressage horse showing its teeth and straining against the reins like a polo pony would be either bottom of the class or more probably sent out of the ring.


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## palo1 (16 July 2014)

Brownmare said:



			I have worked with polo ponies - and I will never do so again. In the one season I was there 4 ponies were killed from a single yard: 2 fell during play and broke shoulders (one of which when the rider specifically told the groom to take the studs out as he didn't need them), 1 died of ruptured kidneys when a player from the opposing team brought his stick down on the ponies back deliberately and the last did a tendon catastrophically.

Not only that but when there was a tournament at the local club we had visiting horses stabled with us. One had a tongue semi-severed from a bit injury and another had a 4" split up its cheek from the corner of its mouth, again from a bit injury.

At the end of the season, grazing was found for the ponies and they were to be left there for the winter. At the start of the season, a couple of the ponies were so thin it was 3 months begore they could go out in public.

No opinions there, only facts, but fairly damning don't you think?
		
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That is truly dreadful to hear. My own experience was nothing like that, nor the experience of a close friend who worked in polo in the UK and Australia. Accidents and tragedies happen in all horse sports of course; too often horses pay too high a price for human pleasure but your experience sounds beyond that & inexcusable.


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## Palindrome (16 July 2014)

cptrayes said:



			WOW, and you think I don't know what I'm talking about 

For your info, there are plenty of eventers and jumpers who go bitless, though the vast majority are in snaffles. And until recently double bridles were mandatory at higher levels in dressage, but since that rule was relaxed there are more also plenty of grand prix horses doing dressage in a snaffle. Though you might like to note that a double bridle is for fine tuning, not for hauling the horse around the arena. Any dressage horse showing its teeth and straining against the reins like a polo pony would be either bottom of the class or more probably sent out of the ring.
		
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I don't know at higher levels as I have only done some very low level. Someone as explained for the standing martingale, now for the bit used with 2 sets of reins I think it is because the horses are trained to a higher level (neck reining, collection) which requires a curb type bit, exactly like a good dressage horse in a double bridle or a reining horse in a curb. 

Now, of course the horse won't look like a dressage horse when he is going full pelt galloping around, and it's not a dressage bred horse so conformationally different too (although some of the horses I rode would be fab dressage horses, fab transitions and piris). The bits used are harsher than what I would have chosen but the horses totally worked from the seat. They were responsive, well balanced, calm and confident. That's something you don't get from a horse in pain. It probably helped that the club chooses carefully the pony provider.


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## mutley75 (16 July 2014)

If polo requires this level of tack to play , is it right? Is there a reason why it can't be played without strapping the horse down to within an inch of its life?

Yes, the rules say that any bridle must have 2 reins, even if it is a snaffle, a standing martingale is a required piece of tack. Ponies play in 4 reins, in a snaffle without a dropped noseband if that's what they go in. Pretty floored argument, bit like saying why do dressage ponies have to go in a double bridle if they school in a hackamore at home. That is why all the bondage gear, safety! Bit like reins have to be stitched no buckles for NH!


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## bonny (16 July 2014)

generalising here but a lot of polo is played by rich people who want to play polo, not ride horses, they learn to ride by playing and the ponies just learn to put up with being hauled around.....I appreciate not everyone but it's common. Hence, better players have to be hired to make up a team that can play at the bigger tournaments. A lot of the better ponies are from South America where they have a tough start in life and a tough life when they come over here.


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## anotherday (16 July 2014)

I really think people should not judge until they actually know what they are talking about. As in any equestrian sport, there will be bad riders and there will be people who are negligent. There will be good yards and bad yards, good experience and bad experiences. The same in any equestrian sport. Perhaps cptrayes should go and watch a good game and see how amazingly skilled/well looked after and happy the horses are. You sound very blinkered. 
Yes, the tack may seem excessive but it's for safety. If you would go and have a look or try you would realise that there is no strength involved in stopping/turning the horse, they are trained very precisely to respond to the lightest of commands since they work as an extension of the rider- bearing in mind the rider has a stick, a ball and 7 other players to worry about all at high speed. BUT should the horse not be responding to such light commands the extra gear is there to prevent the possibility of a serious accident. Lets also not forget how many ex racehorses are given another chance due to polo. I think you will also find most polo ponies are impeccably mannered and enjoy their sport. 
Please don't judge until you have tried.


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## merlin12 (16 July 2014)

I used to work as a Polo groom ,there is good and bad in all equine sports. The horses I looked after were well cared for and happy and enjoyed their work. I now have a retired polo pony as a hack ,he is ridden in a snaffle. He is excellent the most responsive horse I have ever ridden . He responds to your weight and position in the saddle . These ponies don't wear that tack all the time ,it is just for matches. If a pony does not enjoy the game he would be rehomed to do a different job.


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## PoppyAnderson (16 July 2014)

bonny said:



			A lot of the better ponies are from South America where they have a tough start in life and a tough life when they come over here.
		
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I've seen this first hand, as I used to work on the most prestigious polo yard in the uk. The horses have to tow the line at all costs. The treatment of them that I witnessed was extremely harsh. From the schooling to the playing to the vet care. I've seen horses stood in their boxes for weeks on end weaving from the pain of being fired, for instance. The welfare of the horse is secondary to playing the game and winning. I get that though. It's not how I chose to look after my own horses but I get that people are fiercely competative and its a win at all costs mentality. The horse is simply a vehicle for achieving this. How harsh the tack is just simply isn't a consideration. How fast you can go, how quick you can stop and turn is really all that matters. Polo isn't dissimilar to many other equine activities. There's good and bad practices but some of the practices that go on would make you weep.


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## cptrayes (16 July 2014)

Palindrome said:



			..... which requires a curb type bit, exactly like a good dressage horse in a double bridle or a reining horse in a curb. 

 The bits used are harsher than what I would have chosen but the horses totally worked from the seat. .
		
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In the heat of a competitive game it is clear that these horses are very often not being worked from the seat, but hauled around by their mouths and at that point in time the straps are to enable that abuse to happen without the horse evading it. The comparison with dressage just does not stack up, I'm afraid. 





It seems clear from the answers that it is possible to play without the restraints, but that it would be a slower and less exciting game. 

For those telling me I need to play before I can criticize,   I don't actually need to beat a child myself to know that beating a child is wrong. If your sport is as cleanly ridden as you say it is on the pitch, why is it so incredibly easy to find picture after picture after picture of horses with their mouths open (as far as they can), heads in the air, straining at all the restraints they are strapped down with while their riders of all levels haul them into a tight turn to gain competitive advantage. I've never gone looking for pictures except to check  for this thread, they are ones published in the equestrian press that I have seen.

Can you see how downright ugly it looks to the general public? I'm no bunny hugger,  but I really would like to see you play without all those straps.


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## Moomin1 (16 July 2014)

cptrayes said:



			In the heat of a competitive game it is clear that these horses are very often not being worked from the seat, but hauled around by their mouths and at that point in time the straps are to enable that abuse to happen without the horse evading it. The comparison with dressage just does not stack up, I'm afraid. 





It seems clear from the answers that it is possible to play without the restraints, but that it would be a slower and less exciting game. 

For those telling me I need to play before I can criticize,   I don't actually need to beat a child myself to know that beating a child is wrong. If your sport is as cleanly ridden as you say it is on the pitch, why is it so incredibly easy to find picture after picture after picture of horses with their mouths open (as far as they can), heads in the air, straining at all the restraints they are strapped down with while their riders of all levels haul them into a tight turn to gain competitive advantage. I've never gone looking for pictures except to check  for this thread, they are ones published in the equestrian press that I have seen.

Can you see how downright ugly it looks to the general public? I'm no bunny hugger,  but I really would like to see you play without all those straps.
		
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100% agree.


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## amandap (16 July 2014)

cptrayes said:



			It seems clear from the answers that it is possible to play without the restraints, but that it would be a slower and less exciting game.
		
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This is the nature of competition though. Equine sport involves using another living creature as a tool, there is always a conflict between how much and how to push the horse to win and the welfare of the horse.


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## Toffee44 (16 July 2014)

Work very part time on polo yard with two strings of ponies on. 

Glad to say both very well cared for and loved by both owner and grooms. 

And they are in the semis to day.....*bag packed with beers and strawberries to go cheer them on* and lots of rescue remedy for the grooms haha.


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## Moomin1 (16 July 2014)

amandap said:



			This is the nature of competition though. Equine sport involves using another living creature as a tool, there is always a conflict between how much and how to push the horse to win and the welfare of the horse.
		
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Yes there is, and polo oversteps the mark IMO


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## fburton (16 July 2014)

Moomin1 said:



			Oh the good old 'they enjoy it' argument.
		
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This really is fundamental. Is it even possible to be truly objective about this? If so, how?


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## Mariposa (16 July 2014)

cptrayes said:



			For those telling me I need to play before I can criticize,   I don't actually need to beat a child myself to know that beating a child is wrong.
		
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Seriously? You're comparing polo to beating a child?  

I have seen plenty of happy hackers hauling their horses around as I drive past them on the road, seen plenty of showjumpers simultaneously with hugely overbitted horses see-sawing them, dressage horses overbent...the list could go on - NO discipline is without ugly riding! 

Anyway, I'm typing this as my poor poor ponies are all lying flat out in their stables after their morning work,  having a snooze to the dulcet tones of classic FM. They are all having a massage this afternoon from the equine sports therapist. Then the poor poor dears will be put out in the field in their fly sheets and fly masks, before getting their supper in the field later and a last check at 9. They might have to go to polo on Thursday, and even on the weekend if they can fit it in with their hectic schedule of sleeping, eating and being pampered. Tough life!


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## MagicMelon (16 July 2014)

miss_c said:



			It is a fast game and they need to be able to stop and turn on a sixpence when required.  You quite simply wouldn't be able to stop some of the ponies I played in less tack when playing chukkas.  Yes there will be incidents as there are in any equine sport, but at the top levels especially those ponies are worth a FORTUNE and are incredibly well looked after.
		
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Why can't you compete in less tack?  Yes horses get excited I can imagine but surely trained well, they would learn not to become strong enough to need all this stuff. A lot of horses get excited before and during XC but they can still be ridden in a snaffle.  I think its just easier to chuck them in a more serious bit and strap their heads in the right place etc...   Saying they're worth a fortune never means they're really well looked after.  Racehorses and top level showjumpers etc. are worth a huge amount and people consider they live a life of luxury when personally I find their lives very sad in general - they lead very very unnatural lives which are spent being bored in stables and often never being allowed to do something as basic as eat grass and socialise with other horses... I can't say this is how polo ponies are kept as I don't know if this is usual for them too but the only ones I have seen where in Dubai where they looked utterly bored to death looking painfully skinny standing in stables with muzzles on so it was a huge effort to even eat a shred of hay... yet they were beautifully clean, where in immaculate gold painted stables and were ridden on beautifully maintained lush green paddocks which they were never allowed to graze on so they must lead a lovely life...


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## JFTDWS (16 July 2014)

It's not remotely logical to say "but you'd be flamed for schooling in that tack" - yes you would, because it would be completely counter-intuitive for dressage schooling to use that sort of tack, not least because it's not competition legal.  

I imagine the standing is "standard" tack which is used for safety and is essential under the rules (I am extrapolating from horseball here where I believe this is the case).  A standing martingale doesn't inhibit the horse under usual circs and is a common enough tool in many people's tack boxes.  The bit, noseband and running reins aren't uncommon in many fields and many people openly rely on them in much less exciting situations than a chukka.

So who makes you the arbiter of what's acceptable and what's not?  Some people think using spurs and a double in dressage is disgusting, others think it's unacceptable to jump or compete 4 year olds, you clearly don't like polo.  That's fine - you're entitled to your own opinion - but without any solid proof that it is a welfare concern, it is pretty meaningless to the polo playing world


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## RunToEarth (16 July 2014)

cptrayes said:



			It seems clear from the answers that it is possible to play without the restraints, but that it would be a slower and less exciting game.
		
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A bit like Polocrosse then....?




			For those telling me I need to play before I can criticize,   I don't actually need to beat a child myself to know that beating a child is wrong. 
Can you see how downright ugly it looks to the general public? I'm no bunny hugger,  but I really would like to see you play without all those straps.
		
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Hi cptrayes. I don't think you need anyone on here to point out that playing polo and beating children are not comparable, but I feel someone needs to, just in case. 

In a game situation, with several horses going fast, it is necessary to have the ability to stop and turn quickly. You probably won't appreciate the effectiveness of an english gag and two sets of reins in a polo match until you have ridden a couple of chukkas and relied on it. Asides from the fact that it prevents a lot of nasty accidents, it also enables the game to be played effectively. I would compare it to most people bitting up their horses for hunting, in that it is always more sensible to have the stronger kit on, in case you need to use it, than not have any control and causing an accident ( a trait I have seen often on the bloodhounding scene when people wish to prove their horses a "snaffle mouth"). My sister is a member of a club, plays regularly and loves her horses - they are well looked after and asides from game days are all ridden in snaffles, stabled, rugged and don't lead a particularly difficult life.


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## Moomin1 (16 July 2014)

RunToEarth said:



			A bit like Polocrosse then....?



Hi cptrayes. I don't think you need anyone on here to point out that playing polo and beating children are not comparable, but I feel someone needs to, just in case. 

In a game situation, with several horses going fast, it is necessary to have the ability to stop and turn quickly. You probably won't appreciate the effectiveness of an english gag and two sets of reins in a polo match until you have ridden a couple of chukkas and relied on it. Asides from the fact that it prevents a lot of nasty accidents, it also enables the game to be played effectively. I would compare it to most people bitting up their horses for hunting, in that it is always more sensible to have the stronger kit on, in case you need to use it, than not have any control and causing an accident ( a trait I have seen often on the bloodhounding scene when people wish to prove their horses a "snaffle mouth"). My sister is a member of a club, plays regularly and loves her horses - they are well looked after and asides from game days are all ridden in snaffles, stabled, rugged and don't lead a particularly difficult life.
		
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People keep referring to the fact the tack is necessary for the game - but how does this make it acceptable?


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## LittleMonster (16 July 2014)

I dont know much about the sport but  the welfare is down to the individual owner of the ponies like any other horse.

Whilst hacking i have seen horse tacked up to their eyeballs and people smacking them with crops so again i think it down to the individual. (should we ban 'hacking'??) Also i thought the tack was to make sure that the rider could be in full control as they are mostly riding one handed (i find it difficult to do don't know about anyone else?) 

And i also believe some horses/ponies may enjoy it, When i take K in the school and there are jumps he will prick up his ears and be very forward going. B used to love going up the gallops again ears prick and a bit bouncy (not the same scale i know)

But also if people did manage to get the sport banned, where do all the horses go? Charities are full, Pts?? for meat? we already have a crisis of animals why make it worse? 
People have already ended the Hunt...
i dont agree with dressage (horse hauled around and stabbed in sides with spurs) or SJ (being whipped a lot from what i have seen) but again i don't know much about it and certainly wouldn't try and ban it because i disagreed. Those horses have a job and its been going on for years. in this day and age i think there are too many people looking at the bad side of things, there is worse things going on in the world this is the least of my concern TBH (it would be if i had concerns but to be honest i don't and i believe there is always a vet on site?? Correct me if im wrong?)

i believe they are happy and if they weren't they would show it for example: Racing a horse flipped himself to the floor to get the rider off, i believe he wasn't happy with his job, horses have their own mind and im sure they would be the first one to tell the rider they weren't happy.

Just my opinion...


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## Moomin1 (16 July 2014)

JFTD said:



			It's not remotely logical to say "but you'd be flamed for schooling in that tack" - yes you would, because it would be completely counter-intuitive for dressage schooling to use that sort of tack, not least because it's not competition legal.  

I imagine the standing is "standard" tack which is used for safety and is essential under the rules (I am extrapolating from horseball here where I believe this is the case).  A standing martingale doesn't inhibit the horse under usual circs and is a common enough tool in many people's tack boxes.  The bit, noseband and running reins aren't uncommon in many fields and many people openly rely on them in much less exciting situations than a chukka.

So who makes you the arbiter of what's acceptable and what's not?  Some people think using spurs and a double in dressage is disgusting, others think it's unacceptable to jump or compete 4 year olds, you clearly don't like polo.  That's fine - you're entitled to your own opinion - but without any solid proof that it is a welfare concern, it is pretty meaningless to the polo playing world 

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No, you'd be flamed for using that tack and having a horse react the way they do because it's a welfare issue, not because it's counter intuitive for schooling.


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## amandap (16 July 2014)

JFTD said:



			That's fine - you're entitled to your own opinion - but without any solid proof that it is a welfare concern, it is pretty meaningless to the polo playing world 

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This is always true of these discussions, those in that world see things differently to those outside of it. How much is lack of understanding and how much is what you see every day is normal and acceptable I am not sure.


The business arguments and fiercely competitive nature of humans will always win out in the end. All we can hope for is a better lot for horses.

I'm afraid whether horses truly enjoy this stuff is really irrelevant to us humans when it comes to our enjoyment and making a living.


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## mairiwick (16 July 2014)

The polo yard I worked on took great care of their horses. Certainly weren't stabled all the time and weaving as a previous poster has had experience of. During summer they all grazed out in a big herd overnight, came in during the day and some were stabled and some were in outside stalls - stable sized. They were ridden out in snaffle bridles and saddles - no excess tack. Hacked around the village and cantered on a local bridleway (before the surface was changed to loose stones - grr). When we took them for chukkas they did have extra tack on, overgirths too - yes for extra control if required but also for safety should any tack give way for any reason. They were hosed off after they came back in and kept well fed and watered. I can't speak for every yard and every team but I was really impressed with the level of care and the condition of the horses. I never noted any consequences of the additional tack on those horses and they would turn/pull up with a slight shift of weight (even with me riding them who had no experience of riding polo ponies before) or gentle move of the hand.


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## RunToEarth (16 July 2014)

Moomin1 said:



			People keep referring to the fact the tack is necessary for the game - but how does this make it acceptable?
		
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I can only speak for the horses we have, because I don't categorically check the welfare of every polo pony in the country, however they are all healthy and as far as any human can tell happy, they do not appear to be affected by this tack you personally deem as unacceptable - I personally don't. 

It boils down to a difference of opinion, like all other equestrian sports which people take umbrage to. Personally I would rather take my chances with my horse in "bondage" for a chukka than take my life in my hands and yomp down the A15 in partial light, however I seem to be in the minority with that school of thought...


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## Bojingles (16 July 2014)

CPTrayes, I feel your pain at the disingenuous dodging of your question and deliberate missing of the point. And Moomin, I often find myself disagreeing with you but I'm 100% with you on this!!!


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## palo1 (16 July 2014)

I am not a passionate supporter of Polo per se although I loved the thrill when I played a bit for a few years. Whenever I played or spectated there was a huge amount of pride in effective and decent riding skill; that is a crucial and very necessary part of the game.  Players and patrons are pretty intolerant of unnecessary rough riding and there is little affection for those players who are 'effective' if they are also hard on the ponies.  The ponies are too valuable and it makes people angry to witness horse abuse.

 The thing is that if you are galloping onto a ball (cos that's the game) and someone else is on course for a collision, what do you do?  Pull up/move asap or allow a potentially serious accident?  What do people do when they realise, across country that they have got it wrong or that they are on course for a fall?  It seems very similar to me.

 There is good and bad practice in all horse sports of course and 'welfare concerns' with all of them as far as I can see.  That is because of people rather than the sport though.

 In Polo, there are some nations and practices which are clearly cruel but then you can see that in every discipline and across all parts of the globe.  In the UK, as many other countries, for a large part, Polo is a 'status symbol' sport - with both wealthy patrons who either have a true passion for the game and Polo 'culture' or who may want to use the game as a social 'entree' and the sportsmen who play either for themselves if they are rich enough or for their patrons.   The patrons fork out huge amounts of money to enable them to participate and the sportsmen depend on their success to go up the rankings and to get more money, more playing opportunities etc.  The ponies are either the property of patrons or players. They represent quite considerable investment and as an integral part of the game must be cared for.

 Patrons do NOT like the approbation that cruelty brings them - it's bad for their social rise - at least in this country, and the players do not like or need to be criticised or left out because their pony skills are questionable.    Some players are ambitious and play hard to win but a broken, injured or angry/upset pony is no use for anyone involved.  Injuries happen and as always people do not always choose the best course of action for the pony.  Show me a discipline that is different.  That is not to say that it is acceptable.

The ponies have to be very highly trained, good playing mares are kept on for breeding and a huge number of players adore their ponies and have spent a great deal of time developing the ponies skills and maintaining them as long as possible.  Its of no benefit to put a good or potentially good pony in a dangerous or injurious situation.  Older, less good ponies are also useful - as they can be used for teaching and for new people entering the sport.     The ponies tend to live as a gang - often turned away in the non-playing season and spend their working life with other horses; working only for short bursts of time.  

I have seen equally awful images of eventers/dressage horses/showjumpers as well as the ignorant and rough handling you see from ordinary people who know no better or simply like to dominate a horse. People choose veterinary/management practices which are clearly detrimental to horse's health and happiness and I have seen hunters with dreadful saddle sores on their withers/severe bits and lame. Usually the owner says 'Oh he loves hunting so much, it would kill him to stop - he lives for jumping huge hedges' or something like that.   There is appalling abuse of endurance horses in some instances too.  

I am just not sure why you have picked on Polo OP.


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## stencilface (16 July 2014)

palo1 said:



			Players and patrons are pretty intolerant of unnecessary rough riding and there is little affection for those players who are 'effective' if they are also hard on the ponies.  The ponies are too valuable and it makes people angry to witness horse abuse.

 What do people do when they realise, across country that they have got it wrong or that they are on course for a fall?  It seems very similar to me.

 Polo is a 'status symbol' sport - with both wealthy patrons who either have a true passion for the game and Polo 'culture' or who may want to use the game as a social 'entree' and the sportsmen who play either for themselves if they are rich enough or for their patrons.   The patrons fork out huge amounts of money to enable them to participate and the sportsmen depend on their success to go up the rankings and to get more money, more playing opportunities etc.  The ponies are either the property of patrons or players. They represent quite considerable investment and as an integral part of the game must be cared for.

 Patrons do NOT like the approbation that cruelty brings them - it's bad for their social rise - at least in this country, and the players do not like or need to be criticised or left out because their pony skills are questionable.    Some players are ambitious and play hard to win but a broken, injured or angry/upset pony is no use for anyone involved.  Injuries happen and as always people do not always choose the best course of action for the pony. 

I am just not sure why you have picked on Polo OP.
		
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Ok, so I'm going to pick on eventing here, as imho is the forums favourite discipline, but substitute in anything.

Eventing is a status symbol sport too, many who support it do not really have any idea about horses.  

There are many eventers who are well known for being hard on horses, yet owners still send horses to them.

A good percentage of eventers going at a reasonable level (Int and above) who are 8 years and above will IME have had some kind of serious vet intervention at some point. They may only be able to compete and be kept sound on injections, they may have been denerved in the case of PSD etc despite that fact its not allowed. They are iced above and beyond what imho is reasonable, ie people icing a bruised foot prior to trot up to numb it. Is this acceptable?


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## Moomin1 (16 July 2014)

palo1 said:



			I am not a passionate supporter of Polo per se although I loved the thrill when I played a bit for a few years. Whenever I played or spectated there was a huge amount of pride in effective and decent riding skill; that is a crucial and very necessary part of the game.  Players and patrons are pretty intolerant of unnecessary rough riding and there is little affection for those players who are 'effective' if they are also hard on the ponies.  The ponies are too valuable and it makes people angry to witness horse abuse.

 The thing is that if you are galloping onto a ball (cos that's the game) and someone else is on course for a collision, what do you do?  Pull up/move asap or allow a potentially serious accident?  What do people do when they realise, across country that they have got it wrong or that they are on course for a fall?  It seems very similar to me.

 There is good and bad practice in all horse sports of course and 'welfare concerns' with all of them as far as I can see.  That is because of people rather than the sport though.

 In Polo, there are some nations and practices which are clearly cruel but then you can see that in every discipline and across all parts of the globe.  In the UK, as many other countries, for a large part, Polo is a 'status symbol' sport - with both wealthy patrons who either have a true passion for the game and Polo 'culture' or who may want to use the game as a social 'entree' and the sportsmen who play either for themselves if they are rich enough or for their patrons.   The patrons fork out huge amounts of money to enable them to participate and the sportsmen depend on their success to go up the rankings and to get more money, more playing opportunities etc.  The ponies are either the property of patrons or players. They represent quite considerable investment and as an integral part of the game must be cared for.

 Patrons do NOT like the approbation that cruelty brings them - it's bad for their social rise - at least in this country, and the players do not like or need to be criticised or left out because their pony skills are questionable.    Some players are ambitious and play hard to win but a broken, injured or angry/upset pony is no use for anyone involved.  Injuries happen and as always people do not always choose the best course of action for the pony.  Show me a discipline that is different.  That is not to say that it is acceptable.

The ponies have to be very highly trained, good playing mares are kept on for breeding and a huge number of players adore their ponies and have spent a great deal of time developing the ponies skills and maintaining them as long as possible.  Its of no benefit to put a good or potentially good pony in a dangerous or injurious situation.  Older, less good ponies are also useful - as they can be used for teaching and for new people entering the sport.     The ponies tend to live as a gang - often turned away in the non-playing season and spend their working life with other horses; working only for short bursts of time.  

I have seen equally awful images of eventers/dressage horses/showjumpers as well as the ignorant and rough handling you see from ordinary people who know no better or simply like to dominate a horse. People choose veterinary/management practices which are clearly detrimental to horse's health and happiness and I have seen hunters with dreadful saddle sores on their withers/severe bits and lame. Usually the owner says 'Oh he loves hunting so much, it would kill him to stop - he lives for jumping huge hedges' or something like that.   There is appalling abuse of endurance horses in some instances too.  

I am just not sure why you have picked on Polo OP.
		
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You don't see instances of horses having their mouths ripped to shreds and hauled about in every single event/dressage comp/hack/sj. It's in the minority. Polo, it is pretty much every horse in every match you see.


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## TT55 (16 July 2014)

In answer to your question 'why cant horses be played without the "bondage"' the answer is they can. Most horses I know are started in a snaffle and then go on to play in a snaffle. They are then bitted according to their needs. Some go on to play their entire career in a snaffle, others move up to a gag or a pelham. Sometimes with running reins if they need them. And as many previous posters have said, this is for safety. It takes me probably half a pitch to pull my horses up in a snaffle. If someone had turned in front of me in that time i'd probably be dead and both horses would probably have broken their legs. A standing martingale is a rule in polo to prevent the player being smacked in the face... they use standing martingales in lots of horse sports so i don't see why it is an issue?

And as for putting all horses in less "bondage" and playing a slower game.. i've never heard anything so ridiculous!  How would you even enforce that? Make it a foul for a player to go go from a canter to a gallop? Why don't we make all riders compete cross country in a trot? Most lower level games are slower anyway because the players cant hit the ball at speed, but telling the top players to slow down would be like telling football players they can only walk in a game. Not only would it be boring, but how can anyone possibly be competitive when they are not allowed to play at their full ability?


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## stencilface (16 July 2014)

TT55 said:



			And as for putting all horses in less "bondage" and playing a slower game.. i've never heard anything so ridiculous!  How would you even enforce that? Make it a foul for a player to go go from a canter to a gallop? Why don't we make all riders compete cross country in a trot?
		
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Equally, with as many horse and rider deaths there are in eventing, indeed, why have fixed fences at all?  Why not make all the fences knock downable, make the course flat, remove any optimum time, that would make it better for everyone wouldn't it.  Except it would be dull as ditchwater.

When was the last rider fatality in polo, out of interest?


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## minkymoo (16 July 2014)

palo1 said:



			I am not a passionate supporter of Polo per se although I loved the thrill when I played a bit for a few years. Whenever I played or spectated there was a huge amount of pride in effective and decent riding skill; that is a crucial and very necessary part of the game.  Players and patrons are pretty intolerant of unnecessary rough riding and there is little affection for those players who are 'effective' if they are also hard on the ponies.  The ponies are too valuable and it makes people angry to witness horse abuse.

 The thing is that if you are galloping onto a ball (cos that's the game) and someone else is on course for a collision, what do you do?  Pull up/move asap or allow a potentially serious accident?  What do people do when they realise, across country that they have got it wrong or that they are on course for a fall?  It seems very similar to me.

 There is good and bad practice in all horse sports of course and 'welfare concerns' with all of them as far as I can see.  That is because of people rather than the sport though.

 In Polo, there are some nations and practices which are clearly cruel but then you can see that in every discipline and across all parts of the globe.  In the UK, as many other countries, for a large part, Polo is a 'status symbol' sport - with both wealthy patrons who either have a true passion for the game and Polo 'culture' or who may want to use the game as a social 'entree' and the sportsmen who play either for themselves if they are rich enough or for their patrons.   The patrons fork out huge amounts of money to enable them to participate and the sportsmen depend on their success to go up the rankings and to get more money, more playing opportunities etc.  The ponies are either the property of patrons or players. They represent quite considerable investment and as an integral part of the game must be cared for.

 Patrons do NOT like the approbation that cruelty brings them - it's bad for their social rise - at least in this country, and the players do not like or need to be criticised or left out because their pony skills are questionable.    Some players are ambitious and play hard to win but a broken, injured or angry/upset pony is no use for anyone involved.  Injuries happen and as always people do not always choose the best course of action for the pony.  Show me a discipline that is different.  That is not to say that it is acceptable.

The ponies have to be very highly trained, good playing mares are kept on for breeding and a huge number of players adore their ponies and have spent a great deal of time developing the ponies skills and maintaining them as long as possible.  Its of no benefit to put a good or potentially good pony in a dangerous or injurious situation.  Older, less good ponies are also useful - as they can be used for teaching and for new people entering the sport.     The ponies tend to live as a gang - often turned away in the non-playing season and spend their working life with other horses; working only for short bursts of time.  

I have seen equally awful images of eventers/dressage horses/showjumpers as well as the ignorant and rough handling you see from ordinary people who know no better or simply like to dominate a horse. People choose veterinary/management practices which are clearly detrimental to horse's health and happiness and I have seen hunters with dreadful saddle sores on their withers/severe bits and lame. Usually the owner says 'Oh he loves hunting so much, it would kill him to stop - he lives for jumping huge hedges' or something like that.   There is appalling abuse of endurance horses in some instances too.  

I am just not sure why you have picked on Polo OP.
		
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Very good post, I am sure that we can all agree that there are revolting examples of horsemanship in every equine discipline. I had friends that played polo and their attitudes varied between the individual. Some were rougher than I would have expected and some were kind and considerate to their horses. This is nothing different to what I have seen day to day thought my horse life in DIY yards.


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## TT55 (16 July 2014)

stencilface said:



			Equally, with as many horse and rider deaths there are in eventing, indeed, why have fixed fences at all?  Why not make all the fences knock downable, make the course flat, remove any optimum time, that would make it better for everyone wouldn't it.  Except it would be dull as ditchwater.

When was the last rider fatality in polo, out of interest?
		
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Carlos Gracida died in February. I think there are more rider deaths in eventing....


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## stencilface (16 July 2014)

TT55 said:



			Carlos Gracida died in February. I think there are more rider deaths in eventing....
		
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I think that it is likely.


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## The Fuzzy Furry (16 July 2014)

Moomin1 said:



			You don't see instances of horses having their mouths ripped to shreds and hauled about in every single event/dressage comp/hack/sj. It's in the minority. Polo, it is pretty much every horse in every match you see.
		
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Have to take issue Moomin1, bit of a sweeping statement above ^.

I live quite close to what could be loosely termed the polo centre of the south, where there are many yards & a lot of matches spread over several prestigeous clubs.
Have rarely ever seen any injuries to horses as you describe, tho certainly the odd wayward ball or stick bruising occasionally.


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## RunToEarth (16 July 2014)

Moomin1 said:



			You don't see instances of horses having their mouths ripped to shreds and hauled about in every single event/dressage comp/hack/sj. It's in the minority. Polo, it is pretty much every horse in every match you see.
		
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I don't accept that the majority of polo horses have their mouths ripped to shreds either. applying each practice to its relevant sport - dressage and rollkur, showjumping and superspurs/draw rains, hacking and the associated dangers of other road users? I mean, I have seen Rollkur used extensive in training and I think it is abhorrent, but it would be a large jump to assume everyone competing in dressage uses it/promotes its use.


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## fburton (16 July 2014)

Mariposa said:



			I have seen plenty of happy hackers hauling their horses around as I drive past them on the road, seen plenty of showjumpers simultaneously with hugely overbitted horses see-sawing them, dressage horses overbent...the list could go on - NO discipline is without ugly riding!
		
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I guess the question would be whether it is possible to see a polo match at a reasonably high level that _doesn't_ have ugly riding in it. If it isn't possible, or if it is very rare, then it would be reasonable to consider polo to be different from other equestrian sports where you _can_ see performances without ugly riding.

I don't know the answer to this, btw.


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## AdorableAlice (16 July 2014)

fburton said:



			I guess the question would be whether it is possible to see a polo match at a reasonably high level that _doesn't_ have ugly riding in it. If it isn't possible, or if it is very rare, then it would be reasonable to consider polo to be different from other equestrian sports where you _can_ see performances without ugly riding.

I don't know the answer to this, btw.
		
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It is easy to answer this - ban riding horses.  Get the gun and destroy the equine industry.


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## pip6 (16 July 2014)

I spent 5 years as a livery at a yard that wintered polo ponies and took injured ones in for recuperation. In all that time I met 1 owner who genuinely cared for their horses. As an example, one chap who had his own yard of polo ponies and played well, referred to them as equine motorbikes. He couldn't name one, didn't give a toss what he was sat on as long as he could play the game. If it broke he got a new one.

Another pony came in with a fractured leg and bone fragments. Vet said pts, owner insisted on 'saving' her as she was so 'precious' to him, 'one of the family'. He proclaimed his love, appeared with a new rug..............and we never saw him again. YO spent many months nursing the pony so she could be a pet. Got her sound in the end, not expecting her to ever be ridden again, still had bone fragments in leg. One day trailer appeared to take her away. On parting groom let slip owner was sending her back to polo yard so she could be used for arena polo.

For those that don't know, horses no longer up for polo are downgraded to arena polo. Many of the winter horses (none were sent with rugs) had dreadful legs and horrendous scars. All were scared about their heads after being beaten if they put a foot wrong by foreign grooms (this was witnessed when they came to collect them until YO stepped in and stopped it).

Also, they sent some surrogate mares carrying polo foals there to foal down. All the colt foals were killed, only the filly foals were wanted.

Before I went to this yard I had no opinion on polo, now I think it is pure barbarism.


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## palo1 (16 July 2014)

The Fuzzy Furry said:



			Have to take issue Moomin1, bit of a sweeping statement above ^.

I live quite close to what could be loosely termed the polo centre of the south, where there are many yards & a lot of matches spread over several prestigeous clubs.
Have rarely ever seen any injuries to horses as you describe, tho certainly the odd wayward ball or stick bruising occasionally.
		
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In my experience polo ponies did not have their mouths ripped to shreds or hauled about in every single match.  At the top end you often see incredible riding partnerships and occasional ugly riding - certainly you see the kind of riding that does not happen in other sports; because of the speed and responsiveness of the game.   Having ridden polo ponies, they will often move their heads out of the way of sticks/balls/other ponies very quickly and that results in some of the ugly shapes you see.   The ponies are extremely aware of what is going on.  Anyone who has played an experienced pony will know that they will choose when and where to ride off (push another pony off the line) - sometimes when the rider has loose reins.  Some of them are clearly making their own choices whilst some back off from the game.   The pony is definitely a huge part of a partnership and frequently 'Pony Power' will win.   In spain, horses may be frequently trained in a harsh serreta - but not all.    At local dressage,SJ & low level eventing I could see ugly riding on a very frequent basis but that is just my view.   My husband's horse (a hack) tore her mouth/cheek by catching her fulmer snaffle on something.  It was mortifying, but has healed.  Anyone who knows the horse would know that this was not a cruelty related injury; it just happened in the course of her life.   We put our horses at risk all the time and the higher the level of challenge, the greater the risk.  As others have said, why not make eventing so that the jumps knock down, the courses are short and flat and only horses in snaffle bits can compete.  Why not ban hunting on the grounds that horses will necessarily travel over hugely varying terrain that can cause horrible tendon injuries/that they may jump something with an unseen strand of wire/get kicked by another horse etc etc.
I have said enough now; some people can accept some things but not others.  We are all different and have different experiences and perspectives I guess.  Thank goodness we live in a country where we are free to express that.


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## RunToEarth (16 July 2014)

AdorableAlice said:



			It is easy to answer this - ban riding horses.  Get the gun and destroy the equine industry.
		
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I think if you were to gather every person involved in horses in this country the group most at fault be it riding style, management or welfare would be the pleasure riders and those who keep horses as pets. Completion sport is much more heavily regulated and bad riding punished, than your average yard - you only have to look at the threads on this forum to see how badly some pleasure riders perform in basic tasks and knowledge.


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## Tiddlypom (16 July 2014)

palo1 said:



			some people can accept some things but not others.  We are all different and have different experiences and perspectives I guess.  Thank goodness we live in a country where we are free to express that.
		
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Well said.

My personal take on polo, as an outsider who had only seen it on the telly and in photos, is that it is a bunch of oversized egos whizzing about on overtacked, undersized ponies.

I have no desire to go to view a real game to investigate it in more depth, as it just ain't my thing.


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## TT55 (16 July 2014)

pip6 said:



			I spent 5 years as a livery at a yard that wintered polo ponies and took injured ones in for recuperation. In all that time I met 1 owner who genuinely cared for their horses. As an example, one chap who had his own yard of polo ponies and played well, referred to them as equine motorbikes. He couldn't name one, didn't give a toss what he was sat on as long as he could play the game. If it broke he got a new one.

Another pony came in with a fractured leg and bone fragments. Vet said pts, owner insisted on 'saving' her as she was so 'precious' to him, 'one of the family'. He proclaimed his love, appeared with a new rug..............and we never saw him again. YO spent many months nursing the pony so she could be a pet. Got her sound in the end, not expecting her to ever be ridden again, still had bone fragments in leg. One day trailer appeared to take her away. On parting groom let slip owner was sending her back to polo yard so she could be used for arena polo.

For those that don't know, horses no longer up for polo are downgraded to arena polo. Many of the winter horses (none were sent with rugs) had dreadful legs and horrendous scars. All were scared about their heads after being beaten if they put a foot wrong by foreign grooms (this was witnessed when they came to collect them until YO stepped in and stopped it).

Also, they sent some surrogate mares carrying polo foals there to foal down. All the colt foals were killed, only the filly foals were wanted.

Before I went to this yard I had no opinion on polo, now I think it is pure barbarism.
		
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Very sad, I agree. But we get neglect and abuse in all equine sports. Just because you witnessed some bad owners does not mean you should tar them all with the same brush! I am offended by the implication that they are all the same, and im sure many other polo pony owners would agree. I treat my horses like princesses, as does everyone else on my yard. In fact, in my years in polo all over the world, i am yet to experience any different (although I dont deny that it happens)


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## fburton (16 July 2014)

AdorableAlice said:



			It is easy to answer this - ban riding horses.  Get the gun and destroy the equine industry.
		
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I personally don't think that would be desirable.


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## Ibblebibble (16 July 2014)

Bojingles said:



			CPTrayes, I feel your pain at the disingenuous dodging of your question and deliberate missing of the point. And Moomin, I often find myself disagreeing with you but I'm 100% with you on this!!!
		
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but they have answered! it has been stated it is for safety reasons due to the speed of the game.



Moomin1 said:



			You don't see instances of horses having their mouths ripped to shreds and hauled about in every single event/dressage comp/hack/sj. It's in the minority. Polo, it is pretty much every horse in every match you see.
		
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every match ?! wow that's some statement, got anything to back that up?!


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## criso (16 July 2014)

Just a couple of observations from spending some time at a very famous polo yard when a friend of mine got into the sport (he had ridden and had horses for many years but moved into polo.)

I think one issue in Polo that does not apply in other sports is that it is something that is actively marketed to novices as something you can progress in quickly.  

You get a lot of "learn to play polo in a day" offered often as part of a business days out. Polo has a certain cachet and prestige so is attractive to people who also see it as a networking opportunity, a bit like golf.   These days stress no riding experience needed and suggest you can play a little by the end of the day and they do have them bumping about on their horses back holding on by the reins trying to hit the ball close of play.

You don't get the equivalent learn to show jump  or event days where people will expect to be jumping Oxers or Trakehners on the first lesson.


Some of these  people will get hooked and carry on playing, a lot of them are businessmen who are very successful in their working lives and bring a certain competitive spirit to their hobby.  They want to win, want to be able to go fast and stop  quickly but with no real experience, feel or an independent seat so there are no weight aids or finesse.  They  can afford to buy ponies so it's more difficult to restrain rough treatment.

At this low level, they are not going fast in polo terms but do a lot of hauling and hanging on to the mouth and use of spurs to make up for the fact they can't really ride.

I don't think you get such a fast progression from first sit on a horse to competition in other equine sports.


The other very interesting thing I noticed was re 'conformation'.  My friend has a horse he acquired (long story) that had been used for showjumping.  It was stocky, a little cobby, had a very pronounced crest and way of going with his neck arched.  He tried him for polo as he was small and nippy and short coupled albeit a bit heavier than your usual.  We went to visit and almost didn't recognise the horse.  He now had a much thinner neck and it had developed completely differently looking ewe like on top and developed underneath.  This is not a good or bad comment, just an observation of how much the work you do with a horse can change its apparent conformation.


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## The Fuzzy Furry (16 July 2014)

If polo is that bad, then why this?

http://www.worldhorsewelfare.org/Article/World-Horse-Welfares-charity-Polo-Day-at-Guards-boosts-funds-to-support-horses-in-need?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=post&utm_campaign=polo_day


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## ribbons (16 July 2014)

RunToEarth said:



			I think if you were to gather every person involved in horses in this country the group most at fault be it riding style, management or welfare would be the pleasure riders and those who keep horses as pets. Completion sport is much more heavily regulated and bad riding punished, than your average yard - you only have to look at the threads on this forum to see how badly some pleasure riders perform in basic tasks and knowledge.
		
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Totally agree with this post.


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## amandap (16 July 2014)

criso said:



			Just a couple of observations from spending some time at a very famous polo yard when a friend of mine got into the sport (he had ridden and had horses for many years but moved into polo.)

I think one issue in Polo that does not apply in other sports is that it is something that is actively marketed to novices as something you can progress in quickly.  

You get a lot of "learn to play polo in a day" offered often as part of a business days out. Polo has a certain cachet and prestige so is attractive to people who also see it as a networking opportunity, a bit like golf.   These days stress no riding experience needed and suggest you can play a little by the end of the day and they do have them bumping about on their horses back holding on by the reins trying to hit the ball close of play.

You don't get the equivalent learn to show jump  or event days where people will expect to be jumping Oxers or Trakehners on the first lesson.


Some of these  people will get hooked and carry on playing, a lot of them are businessmen who are very successful in their working lives and bring a certain competitive spirit to their hobby.  They want to win, want to be able to go fast and stop  quickly but with no real experience, feel or an independent seat so there are no weight aids or finesse.  They  can afford to buy ponies so it's more difficult to restrain rough treatment.

At this low level, they are not going fast in polo terms but do a lot of hauling and hanging on to the mouth and use of spurs to make up for the fact they can't really ride.

I don't think you get such a fast progression from first sit on a horse to competition in other equine sports.


The other very interesting thing I noticed was re 'conformation'.  My friend has a horse he acquired (long story) that had been used for showjumping.  It was stocky, a little cobby, had a very pronounced crest and way of going with his neck arched.  He tried him for polo as he was small and nippy and short coupled albeit a bit heavier than your usual.  We went to visit and almost didn't recognise the horse.  He now had a much thinner neck and it had developed completely differently looking ewe like on top and developed underneath.  This is not a good or bad comment, just an observation of how much the work you do with a horse can change its apparent conformation.
		
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Interesting and thought provoking post. Not much thought for the horse at this level.


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## Orangehorse (16 July 2014)

cptrayes said:



			I saw a picture in the paper yesterday of Prince Harry on a polo pony and it really disturbed me.

The pony had on the following tack:

- side reins, quite short
- cavesson noseband with short standing martingale attached
- drop noseband closing the mouth on a Cheltenham gag bit.

It looked like a turkey trussed up for Christmas 

If polo requires this level of tack to play , is it right? Is there a reason why it  can't be played without strapping  the horse down to within an inch of its life?
		
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What about a hunter you cannot hold?  Don't you put on enough tack so that you and the horse are safe and able to have a good day.  That is all day.   A polo pony plays for 7 minutes at a time.  A photo is a snapshot in time and there are occasional ugly photos even from dressage.

Anyone can be critical about any horse sport, but a horse has always been a servant to man and for its own sake will continue to be so. I know I couldn't put my hand on my heart and say that I have never "hauled a horse in its mouth"  You know the saying about greenhouses and stones .....................


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## SpringArising (16 July 2014)

The Fuzzy Furry said:



			If polo is that bad, then why this?

http://www.worldhorsewelfare.org/Article/World-Horse-Welfares-charity-Polo-Day-at-Guards-boosts-funds-to-support-horses-in-need?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=post&utm_campaign=polo_day

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With all due respect, you are very naive if you think something is perfectly acceptable and faultless just because a charity says so. Who made them right?


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (16 July 2014)

Orangehorse said:



			What about a hunter you cannot hold?  Don't you put on enough tack so that you and the horse are safe and able to have a good day.  That is all day.   A polo pony plays for 7 minutes at a time.  A photo is a snapshot in time and there are occasional ugly photos even from dressage.

Anyone can be critical about any horse sport, but a horse has always been a servant to man and for its own sake will continue to be so. I know I couldn't put my hand on my heart and say that I have never "hauled a horse in its mouth"  You know the saying about greenhouses and stones .....................
		
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absolutely.
I see sick and sore horses all the time, sick of work and sore from poor riding.
what about all the horses forced to endure a 5 minute hell of sitting trot because the rider is determined to *ride at medium* despite not being able to sit without banging up and down and leaning on the horses mouth to balance..........never mind being hooked and hoiked through lateral work they are in no way strong enough to do without straining themselves.
how many hours of the same craptastic riding do they endure at home behind closed doors?

just one example BTW.


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## RunToEarth (16 July 2014)

SpringArising said:



			With all due respect, you are very naive if you think something is perfectly acceptable and faultless just because a charity says so. Who made them right?
		
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Perhaps, if the charity were RSPB supporting a polo match I could see your point. What TFF is demonstrating is that WHW are actively seen within the sport. Given that WHW are a charity set up with a motive exclusively aimed at stopping unnecessary suffering and increasing welfare standards of horses, it seems rather fitting to add to the debate.


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## cptrayes (16 July 2014)

Just love all these 'two wrongs make a right' arguments..

I've never bought one yet and I don't buy one this time either.  If people abuse their hunters/dressage horses/happy hackers it does not make it right that others should abuse their polo ponies. 

Take the straps off. Play a slower game. Easy.


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## cptrayes (16 July 2014)

RunToEarth said:



			Perhaps, if the charity were RSPB supporting a polo match I could see your point. What TFF is demonstrating is that WHW are actively seen within the sport. Given that WHW are a charity set up with a motive exclusively aimed at stopping unnecessary suffering and increasing welfare standards of horses, it seems rather fitting to add to the debate.
		
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I'd want to know how much money someone influential in the world of polo has donated to WHW before I would comment much on this. It is possible that they made the decision 'for the greater good' rather than because they in any way approved of how polo ponies are ridden.


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## cptrayes (16 July 2014)

AdorableAlice said:



			It is easy to answer this - ban riding horses.  Get the gun and destroy the equine industry.
		
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Overreaction much


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## cptrayes (16 July 2014)

RunToEarth said:



			Hi cptrayes. I don't think you need anyone on here to point out that playing polo and beating children are not comparable, but I feel someone needs to, just in case.
		
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Sigh. The lack of ability to read an argument properly on this forum astounds me sometimes.

At no time was polo compared with beating a child.

The statement was that it is as ridiculous to tell me that I need to have played polo before I am allowed to criticise it as it is to say that I need to have beaten a child before I can criticise that.


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## RunToEarth (16 July 2014)

cptrayes said:



			Take the straps off. Play a slower game. Easy.
		
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Given that you have (I am assuming from your posts on this thread) never played the game, your simplistic approach is perhaps forgivable. I for one would not want to be on a high goal pony using a bit milder than one which it has previously been played in - it would end up causing an accident? 

I accept there is "bad" in all equine sports, however I don't believe welfare standards are a huge issue in the sport - are you basing all of this on a photo, or do you have statistics to boot?


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## Moomin1 (16 July 2014)

RunToEarth said:



			Given that you have (I am assuming from your posts on this thread) never played the game, your simplistic approach is perhaps forgivable. I for one would not want to be on a high goal pony using a bit milder than one which it has previously been played in - it would end up causing an accident? 

I accept there is "bad" in all equine sports, however I don't believe welfare standards are a huge issue in the sport - are you basing all of this on a photo, or do you have statistics to boot?
		
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And what statistics would those be? How many horses have said they are uncomfortable? Lol!


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## TT55 (16 July 2014)

cptrayes said:



			Take the straps off. Play a slower game. Easy.
		
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And I repeat... a ridiculous statement. Even if you were to take the running reins off (which a lot of polo ponies don't use anyway - it depends on the horse), a horse can still whip it's head up and whack you in the face at a slow speed. So yes a standing martingale is necessary.


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## The Fuzzy Furry (16 July 2014)

SpringArising said:



			With all due respect, you are very naive if you think something is perfectly acceptable and faultless just because a charity says so. Who made them right?
		
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umm, perhaps you should think again, nowhere have I said something is or is not acceptable, I posted that to show that a Welfare org is benefiting from it, perhaps suggesting that this sport is not all some people here are saying it is.

Please dont be so patronising another time, thanks


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## cptrayes (16 July 2014)

RunToEarth said:



			Given that you have (I am assuming from your posts on this thread) never played the game, your simplistic approach is perhaps forgivable. I for one would not want to be on a high goal pony using a bit milder than one which it has previously been played in - it would end up causing an accident? 

I accept there is "bad" in all equine sports, however I don't believe welfare standards are a huge issue in the sport - are you basing all of this on a photo, or do you have statistics to boot?
		
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.*a*.     photo??????

Would there was only one, but your sport is absolutely drowning in photos of ponies being hauled about by their mouths.

When they appear in such numbers in the equestrian press, seeing a game live is one of the last things I'd want to do, I'm afraid.


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## cptrayes (16 July 2014)

TT55 said:



			......, a horse can still whip it's head up and whack you in the face at a slow speed. So yes a standing martingale is necessary.
		
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Yes, I find that my dressage horses and riding club hacks are especially prone to do that if I haul them in the teeth.

My solution is not to haul them in the teeth, not to strap their heads down so they can't whack me in the face.


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## TT55 (16 July 2014)

cptrayes said:



			.*a*.     photo??????

Would there was only one, but your sport is absolutely drowning in photos of ponies being hauled about by their mouths.

When they appear in such numbers in the equestrian press, seeing a game live is one of the last things I'd want to do, I'm afraid.
		
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I don't know where you are looking? I just put 'polo' into google image search and of the 100 images or so i just skimmed through, there was only one where a horse looked uncomfortable.... Also just skimmed through the latest Polo Times and most of the pictures in there the horses are on a loose rein. So I don't know how you can say it's "drowning" in photos of ponies being hauled around by their mouths.


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## TT55 (16 July 2014)

cptrayes said:



			Yes, I find that my dressage horses and riding club hacks are especially prone to do that if I haul them in the teeth.

My solution is not to haul them in the teeth, not to strap their heads down so they can't whack me in the face.
		
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I cant imagine you are regularly whipping bamboo canes under your horses necks or leaning down to get your head over a ball though are you?


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## SpringArising (16 July 2014)

TT55 said:



			I don't know where you are looking? I just put 'polo' into google image search and of the 100 images or so i just skimmed through, there was only one where a horse looked uncomfortable.... Also just skimmed through the latest Polo Times and most of the pictures in there the horses are on a loose rein. So I don't know how you can say it's "drowning" in photos of ponies being hauled around by their mouths.
		
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I'm looking on Google. I typed in 'horse polo' and these alone came up on the first page:

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/__07fq12lprE/S9s9r5XkHFI/AAAAAAAAANA/rh2FPDpZGVo/s400/Polo+JPEG.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/da/Polo_At_the_Kentucky_HOrse_Park_(5995905109).jpg
http://www.gamesguys.com/wp-content/thumbs/mochi/H/harry-william-polo-horse-game_img1.jpg
http://images.forwallpaper.com/files/images/2/2c3c/2c3c181a/1060070/polo-match.jpg

Not nice.


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## RunToEarth (16 July 2014)

cptrayes said:



			.*a*.     photo??????

Would there was only one, but your sport is absolutely drowning in photos of ponies being hauled about by their mouths.

When they appear in such numbers in the equestrian press, seeing a game live is one of the last things I'd want to do, I'm afraid.
		
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It's not my sport, it is just one I do actually enjoy - I don't see that there is a welfare issue with the sport at all, I have never had a problem with "kit" on horses. 

Beaver Hall on your average Saturday on the other hand, is an eye opening and scary experience if I ever saw one...


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## PaddyMonty (16 July 2014)

Loving some of the arguments in this thread.
I have no strong feelings for or against Polo as dont know enough about it but thought a different take on some of the comments pro polo might be interesting.
Lets take the well cared for and loved justification. I believe the birds used in chicken (avoiding swear filter) fighting were often very much treated like princes. I'm sure they enjoyed it to as they were very keen to kill each other.
Now for draw / running reins. These are banned from the competition ring in all 3 main disciplines. I believe only SJ allow them to be used in warmup. The reason draw reins are so effective is that the double the pressure a rider can exert on the horse through the bit. Nothing to do with light contact, all about the force applied to the bit.
Which brings me nicely on to the bits. Agree strong bits are seen in all 3 main disciplines.  However, if the rider doing XC had to haul on said bit repeatedly at every fence they would very soon be stopped on course for either abuse or dangerous riding. Average SJ round lasts about 90 seconds. Dressage when using curb bit you are not allowed to strap mouth shut. Horse opening mouth to avoid harsh use of bit would be heavily penalised.
Polo providing a second chance for ex racehorses I really liked. Depending on your view of racing that could be seen as out of the frying pan and in to the fire.
Hunting? Nope wont even go there.
At the end of the day all horse that are ridden are subjected to discomfort/pain to some degree. The simple fact is they learn to respond to aids as a way to avoid the discomfort. Even the simple leg aid becomes light through the horse learning that if ignored an increased level of pressure will be applied. How do western and polo horses (and to some extent SJ) learn to do a screaming halt simply from the rider leaning back? Simple, they've learnt what happens if the request is ignored.
So at the end of the day it is up to the individual to decide just how much discomfort / pain they are prepared to subject a horse to in order to enjoy what ever discipline they do, even hacking. 
The really sad thing for me is that many riders believe the dont subject their horse to any discomfort.


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (16 July 2014)

RunToEarth said:



			It's not my sport, it is just one I do actually enjoy - I don't see that there is a welfare issue with the sport at all, I have never had a problem with "kit" on horses. 

Beaver Hall on your average Saturday on the other hand, is an eye opening and scary experience if I ever saw one...
		
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snort...............

there needs to be a bit of common sense here.

Dressage and polo are at opposite ends of the competitive spectrum. Most horss,e i personally think, can be taught to respond correctly to a snaffle bit, within the sedate confines of a dressage arena, or for gentle walk and trot hacking.

take some horses in to an atmosphere they find exciting (so an eventer XC, a SJ jumping, a polo pony to the start of a chukka) and we all know it 99% goes out the window.
safety must prevail and being able to stop quickly to avoid collisions, and not to have riders with broken noses, is important. Its all happening rather quicker than your average walk-trot transition or leg yield!

I doubt that every polo pony spends every moment of every match strained against its bit looking half mad...........given the constant accelerating and decelerating and bunching together of a lot of them in a relatively small space, there is almost bound to be one in most pics looking not 100% soft or balanced.

the comment about glass houses rings very true ...... i would imagine as many horses as socked in the teeth by eg dressage riders losing their temper and kicking a horse then yanking it back a step later (out of frustration at their own incompetence), or balancing on their mouths trying to sit ext trot, as there are polo ponies caught in the mouth by riders trying to stop turn and hit the ball simultaneously.

i know at least one person who has managed to flip a dressage horse over catching it in the mouth but dont think thats a regular occurance on the polo field?

2 wrongs dont make a right but to pick one sport out of all and hold it up as worse seems at best short sighted.

there is a depressing lack of good riding in all equestrian sports, i sometimes wonder how some people stay on for 2 consecutive circles, never mind jump or hack. Cheap horses are easy to come by and anything thats not brain dead is sold on at a loss labelled a rouge. Novices buy horses too quickly and some pig headed individuals ruin horses by refusing to ask for help.

people want to run before they can walk and no one wants to stick it out and solve the problems they create.

sadly i dont think thats a problem that will ever be solved!

sorry, tangent!

ETA that horses are  here to do a job, its no longer ploughing and its now for pleasure not our work, but if no one had one to do any of these jobs there would be rather a problem with the industry collapsing. Like it not the trade off is that we care for them as long as they do the job.


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## Moomin1 (16 July 2014)

SpringArising said:



			I'm looking on Google. I typed in 'horse polo' and these alone came up on the first page:

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/__07fq12lprE/S9s9r5XkHFI/AAAAAAAAANA/rh2FPDpZGVo/s400/Polo+JPEG.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/da/Polo_At_the_Kentucky_HOrse_Park_(5995905109).jpg
http://www.gamesguys.com/wp-content/thumbs/mochi/H/harry-william-polo-horse-game_img1.jpg
http://images.forwallpaper.com/files/images/2/2c3c/2c3c181a/1060070/polo-match.jpg

Not nice.
		
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Agree completely - not nice images at all.

of those are quite clearly placing their weight onto the horse's mouth.  Hardly 'neck reining' at it's finest, and as I have said earlier, any 'leisure rider' who posted a photo of themselves doing this on a normal hack or schooling would get completely battered on here.

ETA - I still can't understand why people are harking on about how 'it's necessary' to have all the tack on to prevent rider injury. Firstly, it's not the amount of tack that's an issue necessarily - it's how much discomfort it causes the horse that matters.  Many many games of polo clearly show an uncomfortable looking horse. Whether this just be 'for a few minutes' whilst turning or stopping, I'm sorry, but that just isn't good enough.  Secondly, using the argument that 'it's necessary' is not acceptable - if 'it's necessary' to cause a horse discomfort to do the sport, the sport should not be done.  Thirdly, there's absolutely no point whatsoever using the argument that 'there are uncomfortable horses in other disciplines too'. Yes, of course there are, that doesn't make it right, and nobody on here is saying that other disciplines don't have that. However, it's all about how common it is, and all you need to do is watch a polo match to see that it's very common to see horses going about as seen in the images above.  It's not just a 'moment in time' every now and again. It's common place.


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## cptrayes (16 July 2014)

2 wrongs dont make a right but to pick one sport out of all and hold it up as worse seems at best short sighted.
		
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Nobody has. Most (all?) of the people unhappy about strapped down ponies on this thread have also expressed unhappiness at other times on other threads about practices in other horse sports.


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## cptrayes (16 July 2014)

horses are here to do a job, its no longer ploughing and its now for pleasure not our work, but if no one had one to do any of these jobs there would be rather a problem with the industry collapsing. Like it not the trade off is that we care for them as long as they do the job.
		
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The horse industry would not collapse if polo was played without straps, dressage trained without rollkur, and horses had to be  four years old before going on a race course.

There is a line between 'there for our amusement' and 'there for our abuse'.


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## cptrayes (16 July 2014)

Does anyone see the irony in the statement that not all the ponies are strapped down.?

Does this not mean that some of the ponies are inherently much better suited to the game than others? And would it not be the case if the strapping were banned, that people would then take more care to select, ride and train only those that were most suited to the game and least likely to be abused by it?


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## SpringArising (16 July 2014)

Moomin1 said:



			ETA - I still can't understand why people are harking on about how 'it's necessary' to have all the tack on to prevent rider injury. Firstly, it's not the amount of tack that's an issue necessarily - it's how much discomfort it causes the horse that matters.  Many many games of polo clearly show an uncomfortable looking horse. Whether this just be 'for a few minutes' whilst turning or stopping, I'm sorry, but that just isn't good enough.  Secondly, using the argument that 'it's necessary' is not acceptable - if 'it's necessary' to cause a horse discomfort to do the sport, the sport should not be done.  Thirdly, there's absolutely no point whatsoever using the argument that 'there are uncomfortable horses in other disciplines too'. Yes, of course there are, that doesn't make it right, and nobody on here is saying that other disciplines don't have that. However, it's all about how common it is, and all you need to do is watch a polo match to see that it's very common to see horses going about as seen in the images above.  It's not just a 'moment in time' every now and again. It's common place.
		
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Exactly this. My absolute biggest pet peeve in this sport is the '..but all this tack is necessary" argument. How many people actually have removed the tack and tried without? How many people spent have ten minutes actually riding, as opposed to relying on ten different pieces of leather and metal to do their job for them?

It saddens me that a vast majority of the equine world will use something because they've been recommended it or seen it or someone else's horse, as opposed to actually taking the time to test different things.


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## cptrayes (16 July 2014)

SpringArising said:



			I'm looking on Google. I typed in 'horse polo' and these alone came up on the first page:

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/__07fq12lprE/S9s9r5XkHFI/AAAAAAAAANA/rh2FPDpZGVo/s400/Polo+JPEG.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/da/Polo_At_the_Kentucky_HOrse_Park_(5995905109).jpg
http://www.gamesguys.com/wp-content/thumbs/mochi/H/harry-william-polo-horse-game_img1.jpg
http://images.forwallpaper.com/files/images/2/2c3c/2c3c181a/1060070/polo-match.jpg

Not nice.
		
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Thank you SA,  You saved me a job there. I thought for a moment I was going mad when I was told these pictures aren't everywhere you look.


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## Mariposa (16 July 2014)

Moomin1 said:



			You don't see instances of horses having their mouths ripped to shreds and hauled about in every single event/dressage comp/hack/sj. It's in the minority. Polo, it is pretty much every horse in every match you see.
		
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Wow - so you are saying that all of us polo player rip our ponies mouths to shreds? 

This is one of our ponies at 19 yrs old, he actually retired last autumn as we were concerned about his arthritis - but here he is in a gag and running reins, there is no contact on the lower rein as he pulls forward, he is going sweetly. So does it look like I'm hauling him around? Does he look neglected? A welfare case? 

Enough with the sweeping generalisations!


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## amandap (16 July 2014)

PaddyMonty said:



			Loving some of the arguments in this thread.
I have no strong feelings for or against Polo as dont know enough about it but thought a different take on some of the comments pro polo might be interesting.
Lets take the well cared for and loved justification. I believe the birds used in chicken (avoiding swear filter) fighting were often very much treated like princes. I'm sure they enjoyed it to as they were very keen to kill each other.
Now for draw / running reins. These are banned from the competition ring in all 3 main disciplines. I believe only SJ allow them to be used in warmup. The reason draw reins are so effective is that the double the pressure a rider can exert on the horse through the bit. Nothing to do with light contact, all about the force applied to the bit.
Which brings me nicely on to the bits. Agree strong bits are seen in all 3 main disciplines.  However, if the rider doing XC had to haul on said bit repeatedly at every fence they would very soon be stopped on course for either abuse or dangerous riding. Average SJ round lasts about 90 seconds. Dressage when using curb bit you are not allowed to strap mouth shut. Horse opening mouth to avoid harsh use of bit would be heavily penalised.
Polo providing a second chance for ex racehorses I really liked. Depending on your view of racing that could be seen as out of the frying pan and in to the fire.
Hunting? Nope wont even go there.
At the end of the day all horse that are ridden are subjected to discomfort/pain to some degree. The simple fact is they learn to respond to aids as a way to avoid the discomfort. Even the simple leg aid becomes light through the horse learning that if ignored an increased level of pressure will be applied. How do western and polo horses (and to some extent SJ) learn to do a screaming halt simply from the rider leaning back? Simple, they've learnt what happens if the request is ignored.
So at the end of the day it is up to the individual to decide just how much discomfort / pain they are prepared to subject a horse to in order to enjoy what ever discipline they do, even hacking. 
The really sad thing for me is that many riders believe the dont subject their horse to any discomfort.
		
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I really like this post.
Do draw reins really double the force/pressure applied? 

The sad thing for me is everyone starts to defend their sport/discipline and the discussion descends into us v them or it's OK in this or that discipline or someone else is worse rather than focusing on the horses' welfare and perspective!
That's humans for you, always an argument to rationalize our beliefs and comfort ourselves that we are not compromising horses welfare.


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## Moomin1 (16 July 2014)

Mariposa said:



			Wow - so you are saying that all of us polo player rip our ponies mouths to shreds? 

This is one of our ponies at 19 yrs old, he actually retired last autumn as we were concerned about his arthritis - but here he is in a gag and running reins, there is no contact on the lower rein as he pulls forward, he is going sweetly. So does it look like I'm hauling him around? Does he look neglected? A welfare case? 

Enough with the sweeping generalisations!






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Clearly not in that photo no. Because it is being asked to go forwards, not turn or stop. Pointless photo.


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## Ibblebibble (16 July 2014)

amandap said:



			That's humans for you, always an argument to rationalize our beliefs and comfort ourselves that we are not compromising horses welfare.
		
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we started compromising hose welfare the moment someone discovered that they could be ridden, but we all do it because we want to. every single one of us on this forum will be guilty of some error in judgement at some point which will have had a negative effect on our horse, in some peoples eyes that 'error' could be something as simple as banging a shoe on a horse which plenty find abhorrent while others find it perfectly acceptable.  No sport is perfect and neither is any human being, although some on here do seem to be under the belief that they are!


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## amandap (16 July 2014)

Ibblebibble said:



			we started compromising hose welfare the moment someone discovered that they could be ridden, but we all do it because we want to. every single one of us on this forum will be guilty of some error in judgement at some point which will have had a negative effect on our horse, in some peoples eyes that 'error' could be something as simple as banging a shoe on a horse which plenty find abhorrent while others find it perfectly acceptable.  No sport is perfect and neither is any human being, although some on here do seem to be under the belief that they are!
		
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Much of this is true but is another argument to avoid critique! We can all improve and if we are never questioned or consider ourselves above question we wont see things differently and lip service will be paid to improvements for the horse.


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## Moomin1 (16 July 2014)

Ibblebibble said:



			we started compromising hose welfare the moment someone discovered that they could be ridden, but we all do it because we want to. every single one of us on this forum will be guilty of some error in judgement at some point which will have had a negative effect on our horse, in some peoples eyes that 'error' could be something as simple as banging a shoe on a horse which plenty find abhorrent while others find it perfectly acceptable.  No sport is perfect and neither is any human being, although some on here do seem to be under the belief that they are!
		
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But the subject of this thread is not about 'error of judgement at some point'.  Errors are errors, and it's down to us to ensure we don't repeat them if we make them.  We are talking about continuous behaviour/methods within a discipline. Not the odd bad rider seen out on a hack.


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## Mariposa (16 July 2014)

Moomin1 said:



			Clearly not in that photo no. Because it is being asked to go forwards, not turn or stop. Pointless photo.
		
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Pointless? He is wearing all the gear criticized in previous posts actually - and looking pretty happy in his 'bondage'.


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## Moomin1 (16 July 2014)

Mariposa said:



			Pointless? He is wearing all the gear criticized in previous posts actually - and looking pretty happy in his 'bondage'.
		
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I'm not sure what people aren't grasping here?  It's nothing to do with the amount of gear whatsoever...it's the effect that it has on the horse when it's put into use that matters.  Clearly, in that photo, it is not being put into use at that time. The horse has it's head, and is being asked to go forwards, with the rider's weight forwards.  IMO, the style of riding, coupled with use of tack, and logistics of the game itself, all contribute to what makes a very uncomfortable looking horse in many polo matches.


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## cptrayes (16 July 2014)

Moomin1 said:



			But the subject of this thread is not about 'error of judgement at some point'.  Errors are errors, and it's down to us to ensure we don't repeat them if we make them.  We are talking about continuous behaviour/methods within a discipline. Not the odd bad rider seen out on a hack.
		
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This.

I also don't see anyone on this thread, and actually nobody I can think of off the top of my head on the whole forum, who claims to be perfect or gives me the impression that they think they are perfect.  Neither do I believe that you have to be perfect yourself to see welfare problems elsewhere.


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## cptrayes (16 July 2014)

cptrayes said:



			Does anyone see the irony in the statement that not all the ponies are strapped down.?

Does this not mean that some of the ponies are inherently much better suited to the game than others? And would it not be the case if the strapping were banned, that people would then take more care to select, ride and train only those that were most suited to the game and least likely to be abused by it?
		
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Can anyone in the game comment on this? It appears to go to the crux of the issue to me.


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## Doormouse (16 July 2014)

Everyone is entitled to an opinion but it is better to come from an educated stand point when making hard statements.

I have no argument with the posters on here who have had bad experiences of polo, I'm sorry they have and can quite understand from their descriptions why they no longer like it. I have clearly been lucky and not seen the worse side.

I do however find the posts from Moomin and Cptrayes aggressive including name calling simply because people have chosen to disagree with their view, a view that is not educated because neither have actually been involved with the sport.

Not one polo supporter has chosen to be rude. A discussion is just that, when you post asking if polo is a welfare concern you are going to get some who say yes and some who say no but if you ask a question and then promptly abuse the people whose views differ from yours then there is really no point asking, is there?


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## Moomin1 (16 July 2014)

Doormouse said:



			Everyone is entitled to an opinion but it is better to come from an educated stand point when making hard statements.

I have no argument with the posters on here who have had bad experiences of polo, I'm sorry they have and can quite understand from their descriptions why they no longer like it. I have clearly been lucky and not seen the worse side.

I do however find the posts from Moomin and Cptrayes aggressive including name calling simply because people have chosen to disagree with their view, a view that is not educated because neither have actually been involved with the sport.

Not one polo supporter has chosen to be rude. A discussion is just that, when you post asking if polo is a welfare concern you are going to get some who say yes and some who say no but if you ask a question and then promptly abuse the people whose views differ from yours then there is really no point asking, is there?
		
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Name calling?!

I don't recall anyone calling anybody abuse names..

I may not have played polo, but I am heavily involved in welfare, and my opinion is that polo is not high up there on welfare standards. Sorry.


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## cptrayes (16 July 2014)

Doormouse said:



			I do however find the posts from Moomin and Cptrayes aggressive including name calling simply because people have chosen to disagree with their view, a view that is not educated because neither have actually been involved with the sport.

Not one polo supporter has chosen to be rude. A discussion is just that, when you post asking if polo is a welfare concern you are going to get some who say yes and some who say no but if you ask a question and then promptly abuse the people whose views differ from yours then there is really no point asking, is there?
		
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I beg your pardon?


Name calling?  Where?

Rudeness?  Where?

Aggression?  Where?

Abuse?  Where?


I do not accept your argument that it is necessary to be involved in a sport that uses horses to have an opinion about how those horses are being used. By that argument, no sport with welfare implications could ever be stopped, because only its supporters could complain about it and they are supporters.

It is intriguing that some of the fiercest criticism on this thread has come from those who were in the sport and have left it.


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## cptrayes (16 July 2014)

cptrayes said:



			Does anyone see the irony in the statement that not all the ponies are strapped down.?

Does this not mean that some of the ponies are inherently much better suited to the game than others? And would it not be the case if the strapping were banned, that people would then take more care to select, ride and train only those that were most suited to the game and least likely to be abused by it?
		
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Is there no-one in the game prepared to discuss this point?


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## Mongoose11 (16 July 2014)

I have only managed to get to page 7 before wanting to scratch out my own eyes.  If Moomin1 and Craptrays ever formed a WWW wrestling team I wonder what they might name themselves? 

Any suggestions?


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## fburton (16 July 2014)

Moomin1 said:



			I may not have played polo, but I am heavily involved in welfare, and my opinion is that polo is not high up there on welfare standards. Sorry.
		
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Does one have to have been personally involved with an activity to have valid opinions on welfare? No, but I'm sure it helps - although it could also be argued that someone who holds the activity dear to them is going to biased in favour of it. And for some activities, the welfare concerns are so obvious, one wouldn't want to be involved anyway! So I think it's useful to have input both from those with direct experience and from others viewing at a distance.


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## Honey08 (16 July 2014)

deleted!


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## fburton (16 July 2014)

Mongoose11 said:



			I have only managed to get to page 7 before wanting to scratch out my own eyes.  If Moomin1 and Craptrays ever formed a WWW wrestling team I wonder what they might name themselves? 

Any suggestions?
		
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Here's the name calling - very mature I must say. :frown3:


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## cptrayes (16 July 2014)

Mongoose 11 unlike you I post under my own name, and your post is therefore extremely offensive and spectacularly juvenile.  I have reported you.

I welcome your apology as soon as you grow up enough to provide one.


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## zigzag (16 July 2014)

There is cruelty in ALL sport, what about show ponies lunged for hours before kids can ride them,  tied up in a stable for hours a day with tight side reins to get the "desired " outline,  Show jumpers rapped to get them to jump higher, etc etc, There are good owners/riders in all sport, sadly there are many who are not as nice, I wince at a lot of sports, polo included, but also see many fantastic people in each discipline. It's a shame that many others do not follow their example.  

However, a question for the polo players ( I have never played polo so do not know) If the ponies are so responsive to seat and leg and neck rein, why do they need such severe bits and running reins?


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## Mongoose11 (16 July 2014)

I was having a very immature moment. You are being spectacularly aggressive in your manner though. You genuinely don't see it, that doesn't make it ok though.


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## Moomin1 (16 July 2014)

fburton said:



			Does one have to have been personally involved with an activity to have valid opinions on welfare? No, but I'm sure it helps - although it could also be argued that someone who holds the activity dear to them is going to biased in favour of it. And for some activities, the welfare concerns are so obvious, one wouldn't want to be involved anyway! So I think it's useful to have input both from those with direct experience and from others viewing at a distance.
		
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No I don't believe they do at all, however it appears some on this thread think nobody is entitled to judge welfare wise unless they have actually partaken in the sport, sadly. 

Mongoose - your post was so spectacularly timed after Doormouse's I actually just made my cat jump from laughing!


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## Mongoose11 (16 July 2014)

Moomin1 said:



			No I don't believe they do at all, however it appears some on this thread think nobody is entitled to judge welfare wise unless they have actually partaken in the sport, sadly. 

Mongoose - your post was so spectacularly timed after Doormouse's I actually just made my cat jump from laughing!
		
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I had read it  

The irony was not lost on me


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## cptrayes (16 July 2014)

Mongoose11 said:



			I was having a very immature moment. You are being spectacularly aggressive in your manner though. You genuinely don't see it, that doesn't make it ok though.
		
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Why is it aggressive to say that I think polo abuses horses?

I note you have not apologised.


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## RunToEarth (16 July 2014)

cptrayes said:



			Does anyone see the irony in the statement that not all the ponies are strapped down.?

Does this not mean that some of the ponies are inherently much better suited to the game than others? And would it not be the case if the strapping were banned, that people would then take more care to select, ride and train only those that were most suited to the game and least likely to be abused by it?
		
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Possibly. I'm not going to insult you by explaining how draw reins work but it is possible to have them on a horse without having to use them constantly - ponies do not spend their games strapped to their chins. 

I have horses who would hunt perfectly well bitted with wet spaghetti and never put a toe out of line. I have one that gets so incredibly excited that I have hunted him in a SM and he is a lot more of a handful to control. I presume in the same way that not all ponies will play sensibly in a snaffle without any draw reins on. It doesn't make them unsuitable for the game. 

There are all kinds of horses doing all kinds of things with all kind of kit on, I don't see that polo is any different?


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## cptrayes (16 July 2014)

cptrayes said:



			Does anyone see the irony in the statement that not all the ponies are strapped down.?

Does this not mean that some of the ponies are inherently much better suited to the game than others? And would it not be the case if the strapping were banned, that people would then take more care to select, ride and train only those that were most suited to the game and least likely to be abused by it?
		
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Can someone in  the game please discuss this?


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## Mongoose11 (16 July 2014)

cptrayes said:



			Why is it aggressive to say that I think polo abuses horses?

I note you have not apologised.
		
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No, I haven't apologised, merely excused. It isn't aggressive to say that you think polo abuses horses. What on earth makes you think that I thought it was aggressive to do so?


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## cptrayes (16 July 2014)

RunToEarth said:



			Possibly. I'm not going to insult you by explaining how draw reins work but it is possible to have them on a horse without having to use them constantly - ponies do not spend their games strapped to their chins. 

I have horses who would hunt perfectly well bitted with wet spaghetti and never put a toe out of line. I have one that gets so incredibly excited that I have hunted him in a SM and he is a lot more of a handful to control. I presume in the same way that not all ponies will play sensibly in a snaffle without any draw reins on. It doesn't make them unsuitable for the game. 

There are all kinds of horses doing all kinds of things with all kind of kit on, I don't see that polo is any different?
		
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Ah, thank you RTE,


I'm afraid we will have to agree to disagree. For me, if I had to put all that tack on any horse to do its job, and I could regularly see it straining against it with wild eyes and an open mouth, I would make the decision that the horse was not suited to the sport and sell it or change what I do with it.

Earlier this year I tried to convert my six foot hedge hopper into a dressage horse. He has superb paces and would do a good test. But I've had him five years, know him inside out, and knew that although he was consenting to do what I wanted, (sometimes in draw reins) that he was not happy with the job.

Reluctantly, I sold him to someone who still wants to jump six foot hedges like he does.


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## cptrayes (16 July 2014)

Mongoose11 said:



			No, I haven't apologised, merely excused. It isn't aggressive to say that you think polo abuses horses.
		
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There is no excuse for how offensive you were with my personal name. Even a child would know how offensive that was. You owe me an apology.





			What on earth makes you think that I thought it was aggressive to do so?
		
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You said so. It's all I've done, and you called me aggressive.


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## Evie91 (16 July 2014)

I can only comment on my experience. I have been on 'learn to play polo days' and also had a couple of lessons.
I must say I absolutely loved it! It was a brilliant experience and I had no concerns about the welfare of the horses.
The horses I have ridden have been so easy - as others have said, they respond to the lightest touch, so no need to haul them around. 
They were in good condition, stood together in a barn. I bought them all apples and asked if it was ok to feed them. I was so impressed as all horses, stood next to each other, ate their apple and that was it - no biting or kicking, no arguing. The groom has assured me this is what they would be like. The horses walked in to the barn of their own accord and took up their spot and went back to the same spot when bought back in later.
I witnessed no harsh treatment, grooms were caring and passionate about their horses/sport. One horse had a huge scar from old injury but this had been nothing to do with polo.
There is cruelty in all disciplines, IMO polo is no better or worse than any other horse sport. I judge as I find and had no concern about the yard I have visited and would reccomend giving it a go - really good fun 
As for stating it is the only horse sport you can have a go at without being a rider, I disagree - you can go trekking, galloping on a beach, driving and use a hireling to hunt.


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## Mongoose11 (16 July 2014)

cptrayes said:



			There is no excuse for how offensive you were with my name. You owe me an apology.




You said so. It's all I've done, and you called me aggressive.
		
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You are obtuse. I meant obtuse (with a hint of aggression).


I have just looked back to see what I had written that could have caused such offence and I nearly splattered my screen with coca cola. That was entirely my iPad. I believed I had typed Cptrayes!


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## amandap (16 July 2014)

fburton said:



			Does one have to have been personally involved with an activity to have valid opinions on welfare? No, but I'm sure it helps - although it could also be argued that someone who holds the activity dear to them is going to biased in favour of it.
		
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That old chestnut is always rolled out at some point to try to shut people up or discredit their argument. The fact is we all are involved with horses so have a knowledge of them, that knowledge and experience is different for each and gives us all a unique perspective and understanding. I am of the opinion (rightly or wrongly) that we can become desensitized to what we see regularly and are involved in, so sometimes don't see things the same way or as objectively as others.

I haven't read anything aggressive etc. posted by either CPT or Moomin1 or by the majority of the pro posters.


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## cptrayes (16 July 2014)

Mongoose11 said:



			You are obtuse. I meant obtuse (with a hint of aggression).


I have just looked back to see what I had written that could have caused such offence and I nearly splattered my screen with coca cola. That was entirely my iPad. I believed I had typed Cptrayes!
		
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So can I have an apology now? For the accidental abuse of my name, if that's what it was, because of course I have been using it for many years and never had a spell checker offer me the alternative you used.

And for calling me aggressive when you meant obtuse.

I'm happy for you to call me obtuse if you wish, since it is so far from the truth to cause me some considerable amusement. Assuming that's the word you really meant that time


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## Mongoose11 (16 July 2014)

cptrayes said:



			So can I have an apology now? For the accidental abuse of my name, if that's what it was, because of course I have been using it for many years and never had a spell checker offer me the alternative you used.

And for calling me aggressive when you meant obtuse.

I'm happy for you to call me obtuse if you wish, since it is so far from the truth to cause me some considerable amusement. Assuming that's the word you really meant that time 

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Yeh, think I got the right word that time. I'll have a think. 

Do you use an iPad? It creates a whole new world of typos sometimes. iPad says sorry. Is the humour lost completely? It must have raised a smile, surely?


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## cptrayes (16 July 2014)

Mongoose11 said:



			Yeh, think I got the right word that time. I'll have a think. 

Do you use an iPad? It creates a whole new world of typos sometimes. iPad says sorry. Is the humour lost completely? It must have raised a smile, surely?
		
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No mongoose, it didn't raise a smile It read as if you completely meant it and it's not a user name it's my name.

I find it amazing that you cannot bring yourself to apologise for the unintentional offence that you have caused by failing to read what you wrote even after I told you specifically that my name was involved.

Your lack of apology or any recognition of the offence your post caused simply makes me feel that if you did not do it deliberately then you don't mind, or worse are amused, that it happened, and for me those two are very nearly the same thing.


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## Mongoose11 (16 July 2014)

cptrayes said:



			No mongoose, it didn't raise a smile It read as if you completely meant it and it's not a user name it's my name.

I find it amazing that you cannot bring yourself to apologise for the unintentional offence that you have caused by failing to read what you wrote even after I told you specifically that my name was involved.

Your lack of apology or any recognition of the offence your post caused simply makes me feel that if you did not do it deliberately then you don't mind that it happened, and for me those two are very nearly the same thing.
		
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Oh dear me. I am sorry for any unintentional offence that I may have cause as a result of not proof reading my post. I also apologise that upon realising my iPad error that I laughed out loud and attempted to make light of the situation. 

I am sure I will be suitably punished as you have 'reported' me to the authorities. 

Apologies for the thread hijack, sensible people.


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## cptrayes (16 July 2014)

Mongoose11 said:



			Oh dear me. I am sorry for any unintentional offence that I may have cause as a result of not proof reading my post. I also apologise that upon realising my iPad error that I laughed out loud and attempted to make light of the situation.
		
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Thank you.


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## EllenJay (16 July 2014)

Mongoose11 said:



			Oh dear me. I am sorry for any unintentional offence that I may have cause as a result of not proof reading my post. I also apologise that upon realising my iPad error that I laughed out loud and attempted to make light of the situation. 

Apologies for the thread hijack, sensible people.
		
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This is so funny.  I actually had to read the "offensive" post 3 times to see what had caused the upset.  Brilliant!


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## Mongoose11 (16 July 2014)

cptrayes said:



			Thank you.
		
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You are welcome and not so much of a bad sport.


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## fburton (16 July 2014)

iPad corrections can be _very_ annoying!


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## cptrayes (16 July 2014)

And back to the point. 

I think we will all have to agree to differ.

I haven't heard anything which explains to me why polo can't be played without creating so many incidents that look so ugly on camera. In fact, I have heard from people that there are lower level matches played exactly that way, and that even at higher levels there are ponies which are so suited to the game that they would not be seen in such situations. 

If anyone is able to invite me to see a competitive game where the kind of play that concerns me will only happen as an occasional error of judgment, I'd love to gain first hand experience of that (but not so much that I'd pay for the privilege  )

Thank you to the people who kept to an adult discussion, I found it very interesting.


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## PollyP99 (16 July 2014)

Goodness me the heat is getting to a few people!

As a non player who rides passed polo regularly I can tell you those I've seen LOVE it, they are bouncing gleefully around IMO.  My own horse gets most excited to know why all these others keep shooting about, can't say I've ever thought the tack looks any heavier than other disciplines either.

Think there's a few people itching for a row here but as a neutral, a little less petulance might make for a better discussion on the part of the 'against' contingent.


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## RunToEarth (16 July 2014)

cptrayes said:



			Ah, thank you RTE,


I'm afraid we will have to agree to disagree. For me, if I had to put all that tack on any horse to do its job, and I could regularly see it straining against it with wild eyes and an open mouth, I would make the decision that the horse was not suited to the sport and sell it or change what I do with it.

Earlier this year I tried to convert my six foot hedge hopper into a dressage horse. He has superb paces and would do a good test. But I've had him five years, know him inside out, and knew that although he was consenting to do what I wanted, (sometimes in draw reins) that he was not happy with the job.

Reluctantly, I sold him to someone who still wants to jump six foot hedges like he does.
		
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CPT (im shortening it, I don't trust my iPhone) I'm not disagreeing with you, I would never force a horse to do something it categorically didn't suit or didn't like. 

Polo ponies don't spend their matches in discomfort if you are riding them properly - they are big pitches and a lot of room to ride into, a lot of games will never command them to turn on their sixpence - if they did the whole world would agree it would be a welfare issue. For the most part of the game they are riding forwards - but which photo makes more of a statement on the front of the daily mail?


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## cptrayes (16 July 2014)

PollyP99 said:



			Goodness me the heat is getting to a few people!

As a non player who rides passed polo regularly I can tell you those I've seen LOVE it, they are bouncing gleefully around IMO.  My own horse gets most excited to know why all these others keep shooting about, can't say I've ever thought the tack looks any heavier than other disciplines either.

Think there's a few people itching for a row here but as a neutral, a little less petulance might make for a better discussion on the part of the 'against' contingent.
		
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Isn't it interesting that it is only the people who are in favour of the game who are flinging around personal criticism this way? So now we are petulant aggressive name callers 

Any advance on petulant?

Pass the popcorn people, I think this thread is going to die the usual hho death now. Make mine toffee flavour!


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## Copperpot (16 July 2014)

EllenJay said:



			This is so funny.  I actually had to read the "offensive" post 3 times to see what had caused the upset.  Brilliant!
		
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This!!


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## teapot (16 July 2014)

stencilface said:



			Equally, with as many horse and rider deaths there are in eventing, indeed, why have fixed fences at all?  Why not make all the fences knock downable, make the course flat, remove any optimum time, that would make it better for everyone wouldn't it.  Except it would be dull as ditchwater.

When was the last rider fatality in polo, out of interest?
		
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There's a polo player currently in ICU in London with an awful brain injury after coming on over the weekend at Guards. It's the only sport where an EU recognised hat isn't required by rules, but a standing martingale is. 

I think it depends on how you define welfare. I spent the entire day watching the Gold Cup semis and I didn't sit there thinking 'poor poor ponies'...

ETS: in the lessons I had, I was told to ride of one set of reins primarily (obviously as a beginner the speed is far less of a issue) and only use the second if needed/first broke.


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## Mongoose11 (16 July 2014)

cptrayes said:



			Isn't it interesting that it is only the people who are in favour of the game who are flinging around personal criticism this way? So now we are petulant aggressive name callers 

Any advance on petulant?

Pass the popcorn people, I think this thread is going to die the usual hho death now. Make mine toffee flavour!
		
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It will die a typical HHo death because, typically, you 'seem' to refuse to accept that some people don't see the cruelty that you see. You 'seem' to be just repeating (in effect) 'but I can see it, so why can't you?'. That becomes a little boring and people get tired and fail to proof read, wander off and make popcorn and ALL sorts...


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## cptrayes (16 July 2014)

RunToEarth said:



			CPT (im shortening it, I don't trust my iPhone) I'm not disagreeing with you, I would never force a horse to do something it categorically didn't suit or didn't like. 

Polo ponies don't spend their matches in discomfort if you are riding them properly - they are big pitches and a lot of room to ride into, a lot of games will never command them to turn on their sixpence - if they did the whole world would agree it would be a welfare issue. For the most part of the game they are riding forwards - but which photo makes more of a statement on the front of the daily mail?
		
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We will have to agree to disagree RTE.  I take your point entirely about how much of the game does not look like the pictures they choose to publish, but I'm too uncomfortable about the sheer number of them that exist, and not in the Mail, either.



Can anyone point me to video of polo, I'm about to go and look for some on YouTube. Hands up, I really should have done this before, I think.


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## Moomin1 (16 July 2014)

I just typed 'polo match' into Youtube, and the very first one up I could have freeze framed pretty much every few seconds and got an 'ugly' picture of uncomfortable looking horses.


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## cptrayes (16 July 2014)

Mongoose11 said:



			It will die a typical HHo death because, typically, you 'seem' to refuse to accept that some people don't see the cruelty that you see. You 'seem' to be just repeating (in effect) 'but I can see it, so why can't you?'. That becomes a little boring and people get tired and fail to proof read, wander off and make popcorn and ALL sorts...
		
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The thread is kept going by two sides. Why is one more guilty of annoying you than the other, it takes both?

I did not simply take an opposing view, I asked repeatedly for more information, but I doubt if you have actually read the thread, or if you did you did not spot it.

It is clear that there are two points of view, where people will have to agree to differ. I have no problem with that, do you?

I'll settle for just sweet popcorn if that's all you have.


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## PollyP99 (16 July 2014)

To have a reasoned debate one must listen to views held by others and discuss.  Every time someone make a point about having witnessed/ taken part/ other real experience you simply ignore it and act in a petulant manner repeating what was said pages back.  




Popcorn has gone stale....


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## cptrayes (16 July 2014)

England v New Zealand

Make up your own mind. I have watched as far as I can stand it. I will agree to differ with the people who think it's OK, but I don't.


http://m.youtube.com/?gl=GB&hl=en-GB#/watch?v=fkjtacL92sk


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## teapot (16 July 2014)

Cptrayes - http://www.pololine.tv/ 

That's the coverage of today's Gold Cup semis at Cowdray. Once again given I was there, and sat immediately behind some of the waiting ponies, welfare did not cross my mind at any stage. But then it probably wouldn't at polo's highest levels.  Lower levels, maybe.


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## cptrayes (16 July 2014)

PollyP99 said:



			To have a reasoned debate one must listen to views held by others and discuss.  Every time someone make a point about having witnessed/ taken part/ other real experience you simply ignore it and act in a petulant manner repeating what was said pages back.  




Popcorn has gone stale....
		
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I have discussed others views. What you mean is that I won't agree with them.


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## Moomin1 (16 July 2014)

PollyP99 said:



			To have a reasoned debate one must listen to views held by others and discuss.  Every time someone make a point about having witnessed/ taken part/ other real experience you simply ignore it and act in a petulant manner repeating what was said pages back.  

How?  CPT has only repeated one question, which nobody yet has managed to answer.  With regard the talk about taking part/'real' experience, it is irrelevant - it has no bearing on whether there is a welfare concern caused by the tack and riding style whatsoever.  That is something which can be assessed without having to actually take part in a polo match.  As is rollkur.  The majority of people on this forum have probably never and will never reach a level of dressage where they would remotely practice rollkur, yet they can and are more entitled to form an opinion as to whether it is a welfare concern.  The only posts which could be related to 'real experience' which could be valid with regards any welfare opinion are those in relation to how the horses are kept daily. But that's not what this thread is about.  Nobody disputes that in the majority of instances, they are probably kept to very good standards.
		
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## cptrayes (16 July 2014)

teapot said:



			Cptrayes - http://www.pololine.tv/ 

That's the coverage of today's Gold Cup semis at Cowdray. Once again given I was there, and sat immediately behind some of the waiting ponies, welfare did not cross my mind at any stage. But then it probably wouldn't at polo's highest levels.  Lower levels, maybe.
		
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Thank you teapot. I'm sorry but I can't watch it, I have 'country speed' broadband and its too high a quality and it won't load.   I assume that the YouTube (compressed) video of the England NZ game was similar. If you look off the ball, you will see the stuff that upsets people like moomin and me in the first few seconds (after the naked Moaris  ) and every few seconds, over and over.


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## teapot (16 July 2014)

Which one was it as your link won't work - want to have a nosey


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## Moomin1 (16 July 2014)

cptrayes said:



			Thank you teapot. I'm sorry but I can't watch it, I have 'country speed' broadband and its too high a quality and it won't load.   I assume that the YouTube (compressed) video of the England NZ game was similar. If you look off the ball, you will see the stuff that upsets people like moomin and me in the first few seconds (after the naked Moaris  ) and every few seconds, over and over.
		
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Naked Moaris?? I didn't see that!! Lol!


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## ester (16 July 2014)

this one tp I think https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fkjtacL92sk


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## cptrayes (16 July 2014)

teapot said:



			Which one was it as your link won't work - want to have a nosey 

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Link works for me, I'm try it again, but it comes up first in the list if you search on 'polo match'   the moaris are great 

http://m.youtube.com/?gl=GB&hl=en-GB#/watch?v=fkjtacL92sk


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## teapot (16 July 2014)

ester said:



			this one tp I think https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fkjtacL92sk

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Ta. Well that's not top top level for a start but nothing stands out. 

Moomin, cptrayes - genuine question, what is it that you find distressful about it? Tack? Speed? Closeness of ponies to each other? Spinning on a six pence?  Do you find is as distressful as watching a two year old being raced?


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## Toffee44 (16 July 2014)

teapot said:



			Cptrayes - http://www.pololine.tv/ 

That's the coverage of today's Gold Cup semis at Cowdray. Once again given I was there, and sat immediately behind some of the waiting ponies, welfare did not cross my mind at any stage. But then it probably wouldn't at polo's highest levels.  Lower levels, maybe.
		
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Did you see a few girls going crazy for the gallery in first game? We were sat behind the left side waiting box. That was me. 
Welfare issues that we noticed was how quickly Dubai loaded, those horses would have still been blowing hard when being loaded/ fresh off pitch into lorry before game over. The gallery only had a 15min-30min journey home and waited for cooled horses.


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## teapot (16 July 2014)

Toffee44 said:



			Did you see a few girls going crazy for the gallery in first game? We were sat behind the left side waiting box. That was me. 
Welfare issues that we noticed was how quickly Dubai loaded, those horses would have still been blowing hard when being loaded/ fresh off pitch into lorry before game over. The gallery only had a 15min-30min journey home and waited for cooled horses.
		
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They did leave sharpish I have to say!


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## Moomin1 (16 July 2014)

teapot said:



			Ta. Well that's not top top level for a start but nothing stands out. 

Moomin, cptrayes - genuine question, what is it that you find distressful about it? Tack? Speed? Closeness of ponies to each other? Spinning on a six pence?  Do you find is as distressful as watching a two year old being raced?
		
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I do not agree with two year olds being raced either. 

For me, it's the discomfort shown by the horses in the mouth.  It's not a pleasant sport to watch if you take the time to watch the horses' heads, eyes, and mouths continuously. It's very easy to get distracted by the match of course - which for a spectator or competitor, I imagine is good fun and an adrenaline rush.  But the horses' reactions are not continuous of that unfortunately.  The closeness I find a bit of an issue as well tbh - though not as much.

As an aside - does nobody ever get knocked out by that ball?!


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## cptrayes (16 July 2014)

teapot said:



			Ta. Well that's not top top level for a start but nothing stands out. 

Moomin, cptrayes - genuine question, what is it that you find distressful about it? Tack? Speed? Closeness of ponies to each other? Spinning on a six pence?  Do you find is as distressful as watching a two year old being raced?
		
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You aren't seeing what we are seeing, I think.  Of course we are looking for it, and you are watching the flow of the game. What upsets us is horses shooting their heads into the air straining all the straps as a rider leans back in the saddle and hauls on the reins to stop it.  It's happening all the time off the ball. You can see ponies pulled up so hard that their forehands are propping on the floor while their heads and necks go verticle to attempt to evade the harshness of the instruction they are being given. The first one is there within seconds of the start of the game, and it simply never stops. If it happens at international level like that, surely the argument that it is only lower level riders doing this simply can't be true?

I'm quite prepared to accept that you feel it's acceptable because it's required to play that way for an exciting game. I just can't agree that it's fair on the horses, sorry 


PS   The problem with racing two year olds, for me and for many people in the industry, is not what you see in the race. It's how incredibly young those horses have been backed, shod, permanently stabled and worked every day to get to the course. On the course itself, the colts and fillies are probably having a ball!

We had a long thread about this about two years ago. I was pleased about how many people inside racing would like it changed, but it would devastate our racing industry financially to go it alone and other countries are unlikely to agree.


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## amandap (16 July 2014)

cptrayes said:



			You aren't seeing what we are seeing, I think.  Of course we are looking for it, and you are watching the flow of the game. What upsets us is horses shooting their heads into the air straining all the straps as a rider leans back in the saddle and hauls on the reins to stop it.  It's happening all the time off the ball. You can see ponies pulled up so hard that their forehands are propping on the floor while their heads and necks go verticle to attempt to evade the harshness of the instruction they are being given. The first one is there within seconds of the start of the game, and it simply never stops. If it happens at international level like that, surely the argument that it is only Lee level rider doing this simply can't be true?

I'm quite prepared to accept that you feel it's acceptable because it's required to play that way for an exciting game. I just can't agree that it's fair on the horses, sorry 

Click to expand...

I wonder if that's why they need the standing martingales? I see it the same but also accept others see it differently. Yes it's not constant but for a horse to throw its head up like that I think it is trying to avoid something painful, then it hits the martingale.


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## teapot (16 July 2014)

Moomin1 said:



			I do not agree with two year olds being raced either. 

For me, it's the discomfort shown by the horses in the mouth.  It's not a pleasant sport to watch if you take the time to watch the horses' heads, eyes, and mouths continuously. It's very easy to get distracted by the match of course - which for a spectator or competitor, I imagine is good fun and an adrenaline rush.  But the horses' reactions are not continuous of that unfortunately.  The closeness I find a bit of an issue as well tbh - though not as much.

As an aside - does nobody ever get knocked out by that ball?!
		
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Has been known, mallets hurt too! I can see your point but I would say it's not like that 100% of the time and some horses can look pissed off at a walk, let alone polo speed. One of my RDA ponies goes around as though he's fighting against it all the time and he's not in any discomfort. Closeness, well that happens in racing too. 



cptrayes said:



			You aren't seeing what we are seeing, I think.  Of course we are looking for it, and you are watching the flow of the game. What upsets us is horses shooting their heads into the air straining all the straps as a rider leans back in the saddle and hauls on the reins to stop it.  It's happening all the time off the ball. You can see ponies pulled up so hard that their forehands are propping on the floor while their heads and necks go verticle to attempt to evade the harshness of the instruction they are being given. The first one is there within seconds of the start of the game, and it simply never stops. If it happens at international level like that, surely the argument that it is only Lee level rider doing this simply can't be true?

I'm quite prepared to accept that you feel it's acceptable because it's required to play that way for an exciting game. I just can't agree that it's fair on the horses, sorry 

Click to expand...

That was a young international level, ie most definitely not at the top of the game and will still be refining the skill. Same way a beginner rider hauls around on a horse's mouth than someone who's been riding for years. I did see some pretty hefty stops and off in the other direction. 

As devil's advocate though, I'd ask you how you'd stop a horse from going at 30mph to a flat stop and then turning, without it shooting 'up' for want of a better word. Polo wouldn't be polo if it was played at a trot... Sadly though, it's never going to be a 'pretty' sport akin to the National's Swan Lake. 

Tricky one, I love the sport, love watching it and hoping to get back into lessons but I'd like to think I'd never use a horse as a machine or support cruelty in any way. I've always been more interested in the angles their legs appear to end up at and how they stay sound (then saw one go wrong last summer) or how tight the girths are tbh! Re standing martingales, there's the element of not hitting a rider in the face don't forget, which all horses are capable of.


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## Moomin1 (16 July 2014)

teapot said:



			Has been known, mallets hurt too! I can see your point but I would say it's not like that 100% of the time and some horses can look pissed off at a walk, let alone polo speed. One of my RDA ponies goes around as though he's fighting against it all the time and he's not in any discomfort. Closeness, well that happens in racing too. 



That was a young international level, ie most definitely not at the top of the game and will still be refining the skill. Same way a beginner rider hauls around on a horse's mouth than someone who's been riding for years. I did see some pretty hefty stops and off in the other direction. 

As devil's advocate though, I'd ask you how you'd stop a horse from going at 30mph to a flat stop and then turning, without it shooting 'up' for want of a better word. Polo wouldn't be polo if it was played at a trot... Sadly though, it's never going to be a 'pretty' sport akin to the National's Swan Lake. 

Tricky one, I love the sport, love watching it and hoping to get back into lessons but I'd like to think I'd never use a horse as a machine or support cruelty in any way. I've always been more interested in the angles their legs appear to end up at and how they stay sound (then saw one go wrong last summer).
		
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But can I ask you then, if someone put a thread up on here, with a vid of them out hacking, or schooling their horse, and you saw them hauling the horse about and making it react like that..what would you think or say? My guess is that the majority of people on this forum would suggest strongly (!) that they are causing a welfare issue to their horse and that they get some lessons pronto before they ruin the horse or cause some damage.


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## teapot (16 July 2014)

Moomin1 said:



			But can I ask you then, if someone put a thread up on here, with a vid of them out hacking, or schooling their horse, and you saw them hauling the horse about and making it react like that..what would you think or say? My guess is that the majority of people on this forum would suggest strongly (!) that they are causing a welfare issue to their horse and that they get some lessons pronto before they ruin the horse or cause some damage.
		
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Probably agree with loads of others depending entirely on situation and circumstance. But not sure you can compare normal riders to those who learn to canter and hit a ball. You're not taught how to ride when you start polo from scratch, you're taught to play polo and those are two very different things. Not saying it's right but when the guys playing learn to ride by stop, start, go left, right or sideways, it doesn't surprise me... Same could be said some those who learn enough to hire hirelings out for the hunting season. Know enough to stay on and that's it. I've seen riding at various events that could be argued as a 'welfare' issue when it comes to weight limits, not being able to hold hands still etc. All the same principle at the end of the day, whether it's an overweight rich man on a polo pony or an unbalanced overweight rider at a riding school... What about driving marathons? Fairly stop start in parts too. 

Whilst I've seen pretty horrific stopping, I have rarely seen someone lean so far back as to be 'hauling' (as in leaning so far back they're yanking) on a polo pony's mouth... But again, I've never come away thinking poor pony, bar the one who did a leg last year.  Granted though, given the quality of my nearest club, I've never seen lower levels.

It's not a pretty sport, it's fueled by money and those who have endless supplies of it, it's not full of one owner types who wrap their horse in fluff. It's a very very different world.


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## anotherday (17 July 2014)

I was going to reply with a long and detailed response to those that believe all polo is a welfare issue but it seems some people are determined to think the worst of polo and not willing to listen to others arguments or find out for themselves. Rather to make a generalisation based on very little material. So it's pointless. There are plenty of eventers competing cross country with hefty brakes on but you choose to ignore that? Why? Because many horses enjoy cross country and get a bit strong...... Oh, I forget polo is different, the horses are all dragged on there against their will. Based on your blinkered and ignorant knowledge of polo I might just start preaching against people show jumping (which like you and polo, I know little about). Clearly a Welfare issue, that horse has a strong bit and it has it's ears back, it obviously hates life and wants to commit suicide. It's so cruel. We should ban it. Horses should be dressed in pink fluffy rugs with diamanté everything and be allowed to sleep by the fire. Jeeeze.


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## anotherday (17 July 2014)

Cptrayes- I'm beginning you think you are a waste of time and just picking for a fight? Maybe you should direct your vengeance towards a cause more in need that one totally misperceived?


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## cptrayes (17 July 2014)

anotherday said:



			Cptrayes- I'm beginning you think you are a waste of time and just picking for a fight? Maybe you should direct your vengeance towards a cause more in need that one totally misperceived?
		
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I have already agreed to differ with anyone who does not see what I see in the video of an international game. There is no need for this vitriol.


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## RunToEarth (17 July 2014)

cptrayes said:



			We will have to agree to disagree RTE.  I take your point entirely about how much of the game does not look like the pictures they choose to publish, but I'm too uncomfortable about the sheer number of them that exist, and not in the Mail, either.



Can anyone point me to video of polo, I'm about to go and look for some on YouTube. Hands up, I really should have done this before, I think.
		
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Happy to agree to disagree. I'm not discounting your concerns btw - we all strive for a perfect world after all, I just do not see the welfare issue that you do. Beauty of opinion.


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## Moomin1 (17 July 2014)

RunToEarth said:



			Happy to agree to disagree. I'm not discounting your concerns btw - we all strive for a perfect world after all, I just do not see the welfare issue that you do. Beauty of opinion.
		
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Do you see a welfare issue with rollkur?  Just interested!


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## ribbons (17 July 2014)

Polo is tough on the horses, as is any equestrian sport at competitive level. Is it a welfare concern though, no, not in my opinion.
 I have been following the peel case, due to be heard in court soon, THIS is horses suffering, THIS is a welfare issue. 
Horses leading a hard competitive life is the same as people doing a hard physical job, sometimes resulting in severe discomfort and occasionally injury.
I firmly believe the alternative (for horses and humans) has gone much to far the other way. A cushy, safe, comfortable life with little physical exertion or discomfort has led to both having obesity and many other problems instead.
I think of fire fighters in Australia during bush fires. Already the natural heat is more than most could cope with, add to that the immense temperatures caused by the fires. Then, the protective gear those people have to wear. It must to be close to unbearable, but its necessary for safety, as is the equipment the polo ponies wear.
Of course, fire fighting is essential, polo is for fun, but the comfort, injury risks are similar.
It's only my opinion, and I know it clashes with many here, but I don't feel excluding everything unpleasant, uncomfortable, even some level of painful is good for any species. 
The biggest behavioural problems encountered by most pleasure riders is due to horses being treated as over indulged children. 
People and horses that work hard and experience less than delightful  working conditions have neither the energy or inclination for mischief. They enjoy the down time and are more appreciative of their leisure time.

It's not that bad either. I know when I have worked very physically hard all day, and ache all over, I thoroughly enjoy my evening bath and sleep well, compared to a slack easy day, when I'm restless all evening, fiddling with all manner of unnecessary things.

Sorry, went on a bit, but was getting a bit fed up of the over the top statements about welfare issues that really aren't there, from people who clearly just enjoy arguing for the sake of it.  Wait till afore mentioned case becomes public, that will put things in perspective.


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## Clodagh (17 July 2014)

ribbons said:



			Polo is tough on the horses, as is any equestrian sport at competitive level. Is it a welfare concern though, no, not in my opinion.
 I have been following the peel case, due to be heard in court soon, THIS is horses suffering, THIS is a welfare issue. 
Horses leading a hard competitive life is the same as people doing a hard physical job, sometimes resulting in severe discomfort and occasionally injury.
I firmly believe the alternative (for horses and humans) has gone much to far the other way. A cushy, safe, comfortable life with little physical exertion or discomfort has led to both having obesity and many other problems instead.
I think of fire fighters in Australia during bush fires. Already the natural heat is more than most could cope with, add to that the immense temperatures caused by the fires. Then, the protective gear those people have to wear. It must to be close to unbearable, but its necessary for safety, as is the equipment the polo ponies wear.
Of course, fire fighting is essential, polo is for fun, but the comfort, injury risks are similar.
It's only my opinion, and I know it clashes with many here, but I don't feel excluding everything unpleasant, uncomfortable, even some level of painful is good for any species. 
The biggest behavioural problems encountered by most pleasure riders is due to horses being treated as over indulged children. 
People and horses that work hard and experience less than delightful  working conditions have neither the energy or inclination for mischief. They enjoy the down time and are more appreciative of their leisure time.

It's not that bad either. I know when I have worked very physically hard all day, and ache all over, I thoroughly enjoy my evening bath and sleep well, compared to a slack easy day, when I'm restless all evening, fiddling with all manner of unnecessary things.

Sorry, went on a bit, but was getting a bit fed up of the over the top statements about welfare issues that really aren't there, from people who clearly just enjoy arguing for the sake of it.  Wait till afore mentioned case becomes public, that will put things in perspective.
		
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An excellent post, although I do go more for the cptrayes and Moomin view of polo, what you have written certainly makes sense. When I hunt a strong horse I gadget it up - I suppose what is the difference? In polo it is the 20 stone men smashing around on a little 15hh tb's kidneys I find most upsetting, not the decent riders.


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## Slave2Magic (17 July 2014)

Having read all 22 pages I have to say there are far worse welfare issues than a polo match! Yes it involves accurate stopping and turning at speed. So does western riding. I assume those objecting are also against this? I am no fluffy bunny and neither would I sit back and ignore a true welfare case. There are always areas of any equestrian sport that cause disagreements. Accept others opinions and move on!


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## Clodagh (17 July 2014)

Slave2Magic said:



			Having read all 22 pages I have to say there are far worse welfare issues than a polo match! Yes it involves accurate stopping and turning at speed. So does western riding. I assume those objecting are also against this? I am no fluffy bunny and neither would I sit back and ignore a true welfare case. There are always areas of any equestrian sport that cause disagreements. Accept others opinions and move on!
		
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But a debate is healthy! It is good to assess other people's opinions, as long as it can be done without everyone getting personal.


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## Moomin1 (17 July 2014)

ribbons said:



			Polo is tough on the horses, as is any equestrian sport at competitive level. Is it a welfare concern though, no, not in my opinion.
 I have been following the peel case, due to be heard in court soon, THIS is horses suffering, THIS is a welfare issue. 
Horses leading a hard competitive life is the same as people doing a hard physical job, sometimes resulting in severe discomfort and occasionally injury.
I firmly believe the alternative (for horses and humans) has gone much to far the other way. A cushy, safe, comfortable life with little physical exertion or discomfort has led to both having obesity and many other problems instead.
I think of fire fighters in Australia during bush fires. Already the natural heat is more than most could cope with, add to that the immense temperatures caused by the fires. Then, the protective gear those people have to wear. It must to be close to unbearable, but its necessary for safety, as is the equipment the polo ponies wear.
Of course, fire fighting is essential, polo is for fun, but the comfort, injury risks are similar.
It's only my opinion, and I know it clashes with many here, but I don't feel excluding everything unpleasant, uncomfortable, even some level of painful is good for any species. 
The biggest behavioural problems encountered by most pleasure riders is due to horses being treated as over indulged children. 
People and horses that work hard and experience less than delightful  working conditions have neither the energy or inclination for mischief. They enjoy the down time and are more appreciative of their leisure time.

It's not that bad either. I know when I have worked very physically hard all day, and ache all over, I thoroughly enjoy my evening bath and sleep well, compared to a slack easy day, when I'm restless all evening, fiddling with all manner of unnecessary things.

Sorry, went on a bit, but was getting a bit fed up of the over the top statements about welfare issues that really aren't there, from people who clearly just enjoy arguing for the sake of it.  Wait till afore mentioned case becomes public, that will put things in perspective.
		
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Believe me, I am MORE than aware what a welfare case is.


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## Moomin1 (17 July 2014)

Slave2Magic said:



			Having read all 22 pages I have to say there are far worse welfare issues than a polo match! Yes it involves accurate stopping and turning at speed. So does western riding. I assume those objecting are also against this? I am no fluffy bunny and neither would I sit back and ignore a true welfare case. There are always areas of any equestrian sport that cause disagreements. Accept others opinions and move on!
		
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Funny you mention Western riding, because yes, that is exactly what I liken polo to - and I don't agree with the riding style/harsh use of the the bit in Western either.


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## TTK (17 July 2014)

Moomin1 said:



			Funny you mention Western riding, because yes, that is exactly what I liken polo too - and I don't agree with the riding style/harsh use of the the bit in Western either.
		
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Don't talk about something you obviously don't know much about - do your research (this will set 'em off)


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## Moomin1 (17 July 2014)

I have sat in a Western saddle once...that gives me the 'right' to judge. ;-) ;-)


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## Caol Ila (17 July 2014)

*Good* western riders will hardly touch the horses mouth, and the horse will be in a frame with no contact.  Now that's collection!

That said, I was watching a Sam Peckinpah western on iPlayer a couple months ago and spent the entire film driving my husband nuts, expressing horror at the way the horses were ridden.  Lots of yanking and dramatic head-throwing and mouth-gaping.  Looked all very Hollywood and dramatic, but poor horses!  Far worse than that polo match in the above YouTube video.


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## amandap (17 July 2014)

ribbons said:



			People and horses that work hard and experience less than delightful  working conditions have neither the energy or inclination for mischief.
		
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I find this an interesting concept but for another thread really.

Of course there are much worse issues for horses but it is also interesting people can draw parallels with other disciplines, perhaps this use of pain/discomfort in the mouth for control is what is being questioned?
 Other disciplines have been questioned regularly on here and this thread is discussing Polo.

I suppose some may feel welfare only concerns feeding and living conditions or outright beating but to me it concerns all aspects of horsemanship and some of it is common practice. We all draw our personal lines at different places so will never agree on things such as this, but is it wrong to question?


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## ester (17 July 2014)

I think you'd have to qualify what sort of 'western' riding here... polo forces and tack are probably akin to barrel racing more than other types. Neither make for photos of happy looking horses and I don't think a bitted up hunter/eventer is quite the same intensity as a polo chukka imo. I'm not sure where I am on it being a welfare issue tbh, unbit/strap them down and end up with them bashing into each other and breaking things isn't going to be good either.

I reckon they should stick to playing it on elephants


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## amandap (17 July 2014)

ester said:



			I reckon they should stick to playing it on elephants 

Click to expand...


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## Moomin1 (17 July 2014)

ester said:



			I think you'd have to qualify what sort of 'western' riding here... polo forces and tack are probably akin to barrel racing more than other types. Neither make for photos of happy looking horses and I don't think a bitted up hunter/eventer is quite the same intensity as a polo chukka imo. I'm not sure where I am on it being a welfare issue tbh, unbit/strap them down and end up with them bashing into each other and breaking things isn't going to be good either.

I reckon they should stick to playing it on elephants 

Click to expand...

Haha now that would be interesting! Perhaps they'd have to strap their trunks down! Lol


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## amandap (17 July 2014)

http://i.cdn.travel.cnn.com/sites/d.../2011/09/07/Elephant_Polo_4.jpg?itok=czNQnvnM


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## ester (17 July 2014)

no trunks are permitted


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## fburton (17 July 2014)

Moomin1 said:



			Funny you mention Western riding, because yes, that is exactly what I liken polo to - and I don't agree with the riding style/harsh use of the the bit in Western either.
		
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Do they still haul on horses' mouths in the movies like they used to, or has that been tightened up on?

ETA: Just read Caol Ila's post which mentions this very topic.


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## Caol Ila (17 July 2014)

Just to clarify, the movie I was describing was made in the 80s.  Maybe 70s.  I don't watch many westerns but I did see that Coen Brothers one with Jeff Bridges that came out a couple years ago, and I at least don't recall being appalled by the sh * * tty riding, so the riding was probably all right.


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## pip6 (17 July 2014)

What I stated about polo ponies welfare was what I had personally witnessed over a period of 5 years, with ponies from a well known club. I did not tar all polo owners with the same brush, I did say there was one who did come each week in the winter to see her ponies and genuinely cared for them.

Shall we also consider another point I raised that has been ignored about breeding polo ponies, where the newborn colt foals were culled due to their gender? How is that ever acceptable?

My suggestion would be ditch the martingale and running reins. Then the rider would not be able to haul on the mouth as they would be eating ears. Best way to ensure consideration to ponies mouth and ensure considerate riding.

Love the elephants, now that I would go and watch.


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## amandap (17 July 2014)

Just an aside but why don't elephants wear bits? In fact they have nothing on their heads at all for control.


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## ribbons (17 July 2014)

Not quite the same speed with elephants is there. No need for that level of control.


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## Olderrider (17 July 2014)

Personally I find it more distressing to watch a local jumping show.


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## RunToEarth (17 July 2014)

Moomin1 said:



			Do you see a welfare issue with rollkur?  Just interested!
		
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I don't know much about rollkur to be perfectly honest, probably not enough to form a reasoned opinion on it. It doesn't look particularly comfortable and I would assume that if the horse were schooled in that way for hours upon end as some have been alleged to do, this could have long lasting ill effects on the horse - I suppose there would be degrees as to how often a yard used rollkur?



Moomin1 said:



			Believe me, I am MORE than aware what a welfare case is.
		
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Really? I'm sure I read that you worked for the RSPCA?


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## Moomin1 (17 July 2014)

RunToEarth said:



			I don't know much about rollkur to be perfectly honest, probably not enough to form a reasoned opinion on it. It doesn't look particularly comfortable and I would assume that if the horse were schooled in that way for hours upon end as some have been alleged to do, this could have long lasting ill effects on the horse - I suppose there would be degrees as to how often a yard used rollkur?



Really? I'm sure I read that you worked for the RSPCA?
		
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Not from me you didn't.  And I can assure you, I have dealt with some of the most horrific cruelty you could imagine, so please let's not get too personal with the insinuation that I don't know a cruelty case when I see one..

I asked you a civil question with genuine interest as to what your views are. I didn't ask to be insulted back.


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## SpringArising (17 July 2014)

anotherday said:



			Clearly a Welfare issue, that horse has a strong bit and it has it's ears back, it obviously hates life and wants to commit suicide. It's so cruel. We should ban it. Horses should be dressed in pink fluffy rugs with diamanté everything and be allowed to sleep by the fire. Jeeeze.
		
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No need to be so melodramatic (or ignorant for that matter).

Everyone knows that ears flat back, wide eyes and an open mouth are clear indicators that the horse isn't happy. Why ignore it? Why pretend it doesn't matter and convince yourself the horse is happy?

You clearly haven't been on HHO long enough to know that the majority of people don't like bling and diamanté, so you made a pointless comment there. No one here thinks horses should be wrapped in wool and get away with murder, there's just a few of us who are saddened that their welfare is placed on the lower end of the spectrum compared to that of their owner's enjoyment. 

FWIW, your attitude has done nothing in the way of changing my mind.


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## Meowy Catkin (17 July 2014)

amandap said:



			Just an aside but why don't elephants wear bits? In fact they have nothing on their heads at all for control.
		
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ribbons said:



			Not quite the same speed with elephants is there. No need for that level of control.
		
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as Elephants were mentioned - Elephants are controlled with bull hooks







the traditional ways of breaking the young elephants spirit in preparation for riding are horrific. Remember the discussions about 'learned helplessness'?

http://photoblog.nbcnews.com/_news/...fore-illegal-smuggling-from-burma-to-thailand


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## amandap (17 July 2014)

Faracat said:



			as Elephants were mentioned - Elephants are controlled with bull hooks







the traditional ways of breaking the young elephants spirit in preparation for riding are horrific. Remember the discussions about 'learned helplessness'?

http://photoblog.nbcnews.com/_news/...fore-illegal-smuggling-from-burma-to-thailand

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Like the old (? still used in places) way of 'breaking' horses. 

We still control with pain and subjugation just to a lesser degree.


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## Meowy Catkin (17 July 2014)

Yes, the old FHOTD blog had a few videos showing that sort of training done on horses. One showed a horse that had a plastic chair repeatedly thrown at it until it gave up reacting to it.


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## Sugar_and_Spice (17 July 2014)

I have a magazine from 1936 featuring polo, with plenty of photos of numerous polo matches. The horses are all ridden in pelhams or double bridles, standing martingales attached to a loosely fitted flat 'hunter' cavesson noseband. There are very few horses with open mouths in the photos and those that are open are not open as much as the noseband allows. The heads are often raised against the martingales, though most horses look perfectly happy.

So for whatever reason there was a time when drop nosebands, rope cavesson nosebands, running reins and cheltenham gags were not used.


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## ChesnutsRoasting (17 July 2014)

Mariposa said:



			Wow - so you are saying that all of us polo player rip our ponies mouths to shreds? 

This is one of our ponies at 19 yrs old, he actually retired last autumn as we were concerned about his arthritis - but here he is in a gag and running reins, there is no contact on the lower rein as he pulls forward, he is going sweetly. So does it look like I'm hauling him around? Does he look neglected? A welfare case? 

Enough with the sweeping generalisations!






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No, but the chubster behind you on the grey could lose a few pounds to make life a little bit easier for his horse.


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## Mariposa (17 July 2014)

blazingsaddles said:



			No, but the chubster behind you on the grey could lose a few pounds to make life a little bit easier for his horse.
		
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Ah that's cool, name calling! The guy riding behind me is an argentine polo groom, standing in for his patron - and rides beautifully.  If we want to get into a discussion about overweight riders no discipline escapes that one ( well maybe racing..!)


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## ChesnutsRoasting (17 July 2014)

Mariposa said:



			Ah that's cool, name calling! The guy riding behind me is an argentine polo groom, standing in for his patron - and rides beautifully.  If we want to get into a discussion about overweight riders no discipline escapes that one ( well maybe racing..!)
		
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Apologies - that was out of order. He may well 'ride beautifully' in your eyes but the horses physiology may beg to differ (eventually).


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## teapot (17 July 2014)

blazingsaddles said:



			Apologies - that was out of order. He may well 'ride beautifully' in your eyes but the horses physiology may beg to differ (eventually).
		
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Slightly larger polo player playing for a max of 7 mins at a time, versus an slightly larger total beginner riding for an hour at a riding school. Which does more damage in the long run?


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## ChesnutsRoasting (17 July 2014)

teapot said:



			Slightly larger polo player playing for a max of 7 mins at a time, versus an slightly larger total beginner riding for an hour at a riding school. Which does more damage in the long run?[/
No damage is preferable.
		
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## teapot (17 July 2014)

blazingsaddles said:





teapot said:



			Slightly larger polo player playing for a max of 7 mins at a time, versus an slightly larger total beginner riding for an hour at a riding school. Which does more damage in the long run?[/
No damage is preferable.
		
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Well then we better stop all horse sports...
		
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## ChesnutsRoasting (17 July 2014)

Ok - you start the petition & I'll sign it....


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## criso (17 July 2014)

Some of the business types  I saw on the play polo days and low goal matches were quite stocky and easily 15 or 16 stone.  Local riding schools round here who in reality have bigger horses with more bone have a limit of 13 stone.

Let me put in another way.  If I posted and said I am a 15 stone man learning to ride, would a 15 2 tb be suitable?   What do you think the general response on the forum would be?


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## Fun Times (17 July 2014)

blazingsaddles said:



			Ok - you start the petition & I'll sign it....
		
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Oh good grief. This is getting silly now. If you are promoting that petition then I had better draft the "stop killing all of the horses who no longer have jobs due to the other petition" petition....


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## Moomin1 (17 July 2014)

criso said:



			Some of the business types  I saw on the play polo days and low goal matches were quite stocky and easily 15 or 16 stone.  Local riding schools round here who in reality have bigger horses with more bone have a limit of 13 stone.

Let me put in another way.  If I posted and said I am a 15 stone man learning to ride, would a 15 2 tb be suitable?   What do you think the general response on the forum would be?
		
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Mm and I suppose it could also be argued that it is under close supervision at a riding school also.  Any hauling on mouths and leaning on mouths with 15 stone of weight is going to be closely monitored (hopefully).  That's not the case on the field during polo.


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## PollyP99 (17 July 2014)

The fatist card now, we really are dragging this one out...


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## criso (17 July 2014)

PollyP99 said:



			The fatist card now, we really are dragging this one out...
		
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I didn't say fat, I said stocky.  A  man of 6' or taller who is well built, say a fit rugby playing type, could easily weigh 16 stone.  

As an owner of tbs I do think people underestimate their weight carrying capabilities and get annoyed when people on here talk about 9 stone as a limit but even I would say that 16 stone on a small lightly built one is pushing it.


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## Moomin1 (17 July 2014)

PollyP99 said:



			The fatist card now, we really are dragging this one out...
		
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You don't have to be 'fat' to be 15 stone.


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## rara007 (18 July 2014)

teapot said:



			Slightly larger polo player playing for a max of 7 mins at a time, versus an slightly larger total beginner riding for an hour at a riding school. Which does more damage in the long run?
		
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In a riding school you'll (hopefully) be taught how to ride effectively. In polo you're taught to use the horse as a platform for the sport with the sport as the focus not the riding. You have to be really very heavy or very unlucky on a horse to do it damage in an hours session at a slow (controlled) pace. I don't know many RSs with weight limits that would allow the average polo player on any size TB! Many even have a blanket 14 stone limit for even the cobs and hunters these days.


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## fburton (18 July 2014)

There's a difference between poor riding being spotted and steps taken to correct it - as you'd expect/hope in a decent riding school - and poor riding being accepted as par for the course. Now, I don't know for sure whether poor riding in polo (which would include hauling on mouths) _is_ noticed and corrected as a rule. Is it? The impression I am getting is that it isn't.

ETA: Good riding is not exactly the same as _effective_ riding, of course. In polo, effective presumably means goals whether or not the horse is ridden sympathetically or not.


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## Nancykitt (18 July 2014)

I'm quite intrigued by people making definitive judgements based on photographs. There's a picture of me on my 15hh Connie where for some reason (angle of the picture?) I look massive  - at the time I was about nine and a half stone but I look enormous.
If someone had taken a head shot photo of my pony and my OH's cob last week it would have shown two horses with ears flat back, heads thrown up, mouths open, looking very uncomfortable. Come to think of it, the whole picture could have been interpreted as me pulling my pony with the left rein, not sitting particularly well...the story behind it was simply that OH's cob took serious exception to being overtaken on the lane by my pony. 
OK, we were not engaging in any sort of potentially dangerous competitive sport but I hope that some of you can see what I'm saying here. There are times when the camera doesn't lie and lots of times when it is very economical with the truth.

If heavy people and poor riding are at the root of the problem with polo, then surely reducing the tack wouldn't solve it?


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## Moomin1 (18 July 2014)

Nancykitt said:



			I'm quite intrigued by people making definitive judgements based on photographs. There's a picture of me on my 15hh Connie where for some reason (angle of the picture?) I look massive  - at the time I was about nine and a half stone but I look enormous.
If someone had taken a head shot photo of my pony and my OH's cob last week it would have shown two horses with ears flat back, heads thrown up, mouths open, looking very uncomfortable. Come to think of it, the whole picture could have been interpreted as me pulling my pony with the left rein, not sitting particularly well...the story behind it was simply that OH's cob took serious exception to being overtaken on the lane by my pony. 
OK, we were not engaging in any sort of potentially dangerous competitive sport but I hope that some of you can see what I'm saying here. There are times when the camera doesn't lie and lots of times when it is very economical with the truth.

If heavy people and poor riding are at the root of the problem with polo, then surely reducing the tack wouldn't solve it?
		
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It's not just based on photos. It's plain to see in videos and when you watch live.


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## amandap (18 July 2014)

Nancykitt said:



			If someone had taken a head shot photo of my pony and my OH's cob last week it would have shown two horses with ears flat back, heads thrown up, mouths open, looking very uncomfortable. Come to think of it, the whole picture could have been interpreted as me pulling my pony with the left rein, not sitting particularly well...the story behind it was simply that OH's cob took serious exception to being overtaken on the lane by my pony.
		
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I agree about riders weight but I take it you you and your OH were on loose reins and hadn't taken a hold to control the disgruntled horses? It's just that when my horses throw their heads up at each other (loose) they don't open their mouths.


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## Mariposa (18 July 2014)

Moomin1 said:



			It's not just based on photos. It's plain to see in videos and when you watch live.
		
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Where do you watch polo? Perhaps we could get one of the players you've seen to comment on this thread. 

It seems to me that whilst the polo supporters on here are very much open about the fact that not every player is the most exquisite of rider, much like in all disciplines, you seem to be of the opinion that *all *polo players haul their ponies around, can't ride well and all ponies are welfare cases. I'd be intrigued to hear which players have given you rather warped opinion.


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## Moomin1 (18 July 2014)

Mariposa said:



			Where do you watch polo? Perhaps we could get one of the players you've seen to comment on this thread. 

It seems to me that whilst the polo supporters on here are very much open about the fact that not every player is the most exquisite of rider, much like in all disciplines, you seem to be of the opinion that *all *polo players haul their ponies around, can't ride well and all ponies are welfare cases. I'd be intrigued to hear which players have given you rather warped opinion.
		
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Yet again, more rubbish spouted.  WHERE do I say ALL polo players? Nowhere.  I said it's common to see.  I also didn't mention anything about them being welfare cases.  

I don't watch polo - I don't like it.  But I have seen it being played somewhere locally to me on a number of occasions. In any case, it's irrelevant - all you need to do is click on Youtube to see that it's a common sight.

I wouldn't have to go and physically watch grand prix dressage regularly to be entitled to form an opinion on rollkur.


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## Nancykitt (18 July 2014)

amandap said:



			I agree about riders weight but I take it you you and your OH were on loose reins and hadn't taken a hold to control the disgruntled horses? It's just that when my horses throw their heads up at each other (loose) they don't open their mouths.
		
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We were on the buckle end of the rein strolling home after a very relaxing hack. My pony is a baby and Cob is very much the alpha. Cob was not happy about being overtaken and actually went to bite pony. It probably didn't last more than a second and then all was nice and friendly again. It made me jump just a little so I grabbed the reins but didn't actually have any contact with the mouth. The 'ears back' angry look was all down to the horses. 

I'm aware that there are videos of stuff around that provide more secure evidence, I was simply trying to make the point that people making judgements based solely on photographs can have its problems. 


As far as the wider argument is concerned, it now seems to have come down to the fact that some think there are more welfare issues with polo because there is (apparently) a lot of evidence out there re. horses wrapped up in miles of tack, putting their ears back, looking unhappy, etc.  No-one is denying that there is very poor practice in all equestrian sports. 
So are we saying that there is more poor practice in polo than dressage, show jumping, eventing, Western competitions, showing, etc etc?
I think it's actually a very hard thing to quantify, especially as in the past I have been assured by people that there's much undesirable stuff, linked to these sports, going on behind closed doors. Just a thought.


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## teapot (18 July 2014)

fburton said:



			There's a difference between poor riding being spotted and steps taken to correct it - as you'd expect/hope in a decent riding school - and poor riding being accepted as par for the course. Now, I don't know for sure whether poor riding in polo (which would include hauling on mouths) _is_ noticed and corrected as a rule. Is it? The impression I am getting is that it isn't.

ETA: Good riding is not exactly the same as _effective_ riding, of course. In polo, effective presumably means goals whether or not the horse is ridden sympathetically or not.
		
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Not just goals but placement of ponies, being one step ahead of the ball, getting the horse on the right side of the ball in terms of lines etc. Though I'd agree that's more game playing than riding per se. Pointless looking like you're doing an elementary BD if you're left 3 minutes behind the flow of the game...

I vividly remember in my lessons (being one of the two girls who had ridden before, the two guys had never ridden) being told to stop kissing the saddle with my backside and ride like I wanted to play polo, not a dressage test.

Out of interest, do those of you opposing polo think the same of photos of the King's Troop on their musical drive? That's not overly pleasing to watch at times either!


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## amandap (18 July 2014)

teapot said:



			Out of interest, do those of you opposing polo think the same of photos of the King's Troop on their musical drive? That's not overly pleasing to watch at times either!
		
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I am not opposed to Polo just worry about the horses and their mouths mainly. Obviously there is good, not so good and b**y awful riding. I find the King's Troop and other similar events uncomfortable at times as well! 
Like all horsemanship there is good, bad very bad and fab in riding and care of the horses I am sure. The reliance on power/force to stop horses is at an extreme in Polo though possibly?


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## tabithakat64 (20 July 2014)

I too worked as a polo groom. 
The majority of the horses lived out year round, they all had well fitting tack and the best quality boots you could buy. 
They were seen by vets when needed, saddle fitters, "back" people, dentists. 
They had a extensive fitness programme pre season and were correctly cooled off after each match.
Absolutely each and every one of them loved playing, if they didn't then they were rehomed to hacking and PC homes.
Many of them were failed race horses, without a doubt polo gave them a better future than many failed racehorses get.
Yes, they weren't smothered in kisses or bling or stuffed with treats til they were fit to burst but they were happier, much healthier and lived a more natural life than the majority of other horses in this country.
Unless you've worked in this industry then you have absolutely no right to comment on this thread!


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## Moomin1 (20 July 2014)

tabithakat64 said:



			I too worked as a polo groom. 
The majority of the horses lived out year round, they all had well fitting tack and the best quality boots you could buy. 
They were seen by vets when needed, saddle fitters, "back" people, dentists. 
They had a extensive fitness programme pre season and were correctly cooled off after each match.
Absolutely each and every one of them loved playing, if they didn't then they were rehomed to hacking and PC homes.
Many of them were failed race horses, without a doubt polo gave them a better future than many failed racehorses get.
Yes, they weren't smothered in kisses or bling or stuffed with treats til they were fit to burst but they were happier, much healthier and lived a more natural life than the majority of other horses in this country.
Unless you've worked in this industry then you have absolutely no right to comment on this thread!
		
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Urgh...yet more 'unless you have worked in the industry you have no right to comment' rubbish.  So, I refer to my previous point...does someone have to have competed at grand prix dressage to comment about rollkur? Does someone have to have neglected a horse to comment about starvation?  Or allowed their horse to graze on ragwort to comment about the dangers?


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## Evie91 (20 July 2014)

Just to add I think rollkur is a dreadful practice but don't think polo is in the same league at all.
From what I've read on this thread (and no I haven't worked in the equine industry at all) it seems polo ponies have a nicer life than some other equine competitors - eg,dressage horses in 24/7 except when being ridden, mouths strapped down, tongues turning blue - not saying all are kept like this but these have been examples. I think Carl Hester is wonderful,as he advocates turnout - in a recent article he stated he was aware this is unusual and was a reason behind his decision not to sell a top horse abroad as he didn't think it would cope with being stabled all the time, when his are turned out). From what I have seen at polo the horses do seem to enjoy playing. During my lesson my horse was super and basically seemed to set me up for a shot - I swear it almost groaned when I missed (and no, not because I was smacking it in the chops!). 
I love eventing, polo and horse racing and  show jumping and not that keen on dressage. I do think standards should improve all round in horse sport - but we need to recognise there are good and bad in all disciplines. As horsey people we should support each other  
Also Mariposa I want to say your horse looks fab, looks fit, happy and enjoying his job! I'm rather jealous as horse and rider look to be having great fun, made me think about booking another polo lesson!


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## khalswitz (20 July 2014)

I played very low level polo when at uni - our team was quite good, so the grassroots training was available fairly cheaply, so we had to try!!

There was one mare whom I actually schooled and exercised outside of polo - she competed to medium level dressage as well as uni level polo, and she was used for BUCS pentathlon jumping too. She KNEW which tack she had on, and therefore which sport she was doing - put a snaffle on, and she schooled beautifully, put her gag and martingale on and she was a handful as she knew she was playing! She was one of those crackers who would follow the ball with no intervention from me, and would ride off against another mare off her own back.

A lot of the high head carriage etc in polo is for similar reasons to seeing it in racing - the musculature is totally different, with the underside of the neck more muscled than the top line due to aiding in balance at speed and lengthening of the neck to open the trachea as widely as possible while galloping for maximum breathing volume.

The bitting I always compare to Western riding - western riders use big curb bits because they neck rein and expect the lightest pressure to mean something. They don't direct rein on those bits! Same for polo.

Regarding 'bondage', you see plenty of eventers in grackles with a gag/pelham/waterford/elevator and running martingales purely for going cross country - should we make XC safer and slower and restrict tack to snaffles a la dressage?

I watched my uni team play on several occasions, as well as watching international polo at the O2 and at Guards amongst others, and there was very little 'ugly' riding when I watched - I've seen far worse at riding club dressage. It's just a different kind of riding.


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## fburton (20 July 2014)

tabithakat64 said:



			Unless you've worked in this industry then you have absolutely no right to comment on this thread!
		
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How common is it for poor match riding of polo ponies to be corrected? Genuine question.


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## cptrayes (20 July 2014)

tabithakat64 said:



			Unless you've worked in this industry then you have absolutely no right to comment on this thread!
		
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Have you never commented on anything that you have never worked in?

What a ridiculous comment.


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## cptrayes (20 July 2014)

khalswitz said:



			I watched my uni team play on several occasions, as well as watching international polo at the O2 and at Guards amongst others, and there was very little 'ugly' riding when I watched.
		
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Good, I'm very glad to hear that. I just wonder if that's the case why there is so much of it on every YouTube video of any decent length, much of it off the ball where it would not be noticed by live spectators following the flow of play.


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## AdorableAlice (20 July 2014)

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/content/uploads/2014/07/1124-492x369.jpg


I bet she wishes she was a polo pony.


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## cptrayes (20 July 2014)

AdorableAlice said:



http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/content/uploads/2014/07/1124-492x369.jpg


I bet she wishes she was a polo pony.
		
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http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/77/Polo_Sturz.jpg

I'll bet he doesn't.

http://www.forwallpaper.com/wallpaper/polo-match-1060070.html

Or him.


Irrelevant AA, two wrongs don't make a right.


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## The Fuzzy Furry (20 July 2014)

cptrayes said:



http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/77/Polo_Sturz.jpg

I'll bet he doesn't.

http://www.forwallpaper.com/wallpaper/polo-match-1060070.html

Or him.


Irrelevant AA, two wrongs don't make a right.
		
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give it a break cpt, aa makes a valid post,  does anyone with a differing view to yours not get an immediate brickbat back to them?

I think most on here have now 'got' your views regarding polo pony welfare


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## SpringArising (20 July 2014)

AdorableAlice said:



http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/content/uploads/2014/07/1124-492x369.jpg


I bet she wishes she was a polo pony.
		
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One of the most irrelevant and odd comments I've even seen on HHO!


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## khalswitz (20 July 2014)

cptrayes said:



			Good, I'm very glad to hear that. I just wonder if that's the case why there is so much of it on every YouTube video of any decent length, much of it off the ball where it would not be noticed by live spectators following the flow of play.
		
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I've never watched polo on YouTube so can't comment!! I know at grassroots level with us, we would get a stern ticking off if the riding was any any way rough,  (I have been ticked off for looking too rough when trying to keep a VERY excited horse under control on one occasion, which one handed as a novice player was not easy, where I felt it was a bit harsh of them, so I'd have said at our level erred on the side of caution) - and I only remember once seeing any real rough riding as a spectator, where a guy rode off too hard and his horse ended up slipping and he was thrown off - he had a new one ripped for him because he might have damaged the horse, never mind him coming off!

I can't speak for the whole sport in any way, but my experience was very positive - more so than the occasions I've watched racing, or the reaction riding clubs have had when I've been FJing and riders have been reported for whip abuse/dangerous riding.


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## fburton (20 July 2014)

Thank you, khalswitz - that's good to hear.


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## Nancykitt (20 July 2014)

My conclusion is - 

Are there welfare issues with polo? Yes.
Are there welfare issues with dressage? Yes.
Are there welfare issues with showjumping? Yes.
Are there welfare issues with eventing/showing/hunting? Yes.

Are there welfare issues with some people who keep their horses for 'happy hacking'? Yes.

I could go on, but you get my drift. It's not about any number of wrongs making a right. We seem to be down to arguing about whether one thing has 'more' or 'worse' welfare issues than another. It's an incredibly complex argument that is unlikely to lead to any firm conclusion.


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## Mariposa (20 July 2014)

Nancykitt said:



			My conclusion is - 

Are there welfare issues with polo? Yes.
Are there welfare issues with dressage? Yes.
Are there welfare issues with showjumping? Yes.
Are there welfare issues with eventing/showing/hunting? Yes.

Are there welfare issues with some people who keep their horses for 'happy hacking'? Yes.

I could go on, but you get my drift. It's not about any number of wrongs making a right. We seem to be down to arguing about whether one thing has 'more' or 'worse' welfare issues than another. It's an incredibly complex argument that is unlikely to lead to any firm conclusion.
		
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Perfectly put!


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## amandap (20 July 2014)

Nancykitt said:



			My conclusion is - 

Are there welfare issues with polo? Yes.
Are there welfare issues with dressage? Yes.
Are there welfare issues with showjumping? Yes.
Are there welfare issues with eventing/showing/hunting? Yes.

Are there welfare issues with some people who keep their horses for 'happy hacking'? Yes.

I could go on, but you get my drift. It's not about any number of wrongs making a right. We seem to be down to arguing about whether one thing has 'more' or 'worse' welfare issues than another. It's an incredibly complex argument that is unlikely to lead to any firm conclusion.
		
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This.
The which is worse argument always provides a distraction from any specific issues that might be relevant to horses well being.


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## fburton (20 July 2014)

Perfectly put it may have been, but imo it is a flawed argument. We shouldn't diminish what may be a valid welfare concern by comparison with other valid welfare concerns. That's because end result of doing so may be that _nothing_ is done about this (or any other) welfare issue. And saying that a firm conclusion is unlikely _may_ be true but is also an unwarranted "counsel of despair".


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## Nancykitt (20 July 2014)

fburton said:



			Perfectly put it may have been, but imo it is a flawed argument. We shouldn't diminish what may be a valid welfare concern by comparison with other valid welfare concerns. That's because end result of doing so may be that _nothing_ is done about this (or any other) welfare issue. And saying that a firm conclusion is unlikely may be true but is also an unwarranted "counsel of despair".
		
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 I wasn't actually advocating comparing one thing with another - infact, I am very much against this approach, which is why I mentioned it. 
Equally, I don't believe it is possible to say that any one of the things mentioned above is inherently good or bad. It depends on so many things. I think that's the main point I was trying to make - that we should be vigilant about welfare issues in all spheres rather than focus on a particular discipline.


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## AdorableAlice (20 July 2014)

SpringArising said:



			One of the most irrelevant and odd comments I've even seen on HHO!
		
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Not at all.  I really do wonder if some of you 'horsemen' can actually see beyond the 'pretty pony' style of horse keeping.

You would gain far more respect by campaigning for the welfare of horses like that poor mare or the thousands of horses that have never seen the inside of a feed bucket or heard a kind word in their, often very short, lives.

Your expertise, experience and opinions on polo, racing, hunting, eventing, dressage the Kings Troop, western riding,  lets add showjumping, I am watching Aachen at the moment, bit of rolkur going on and plenty of yanking and pulling going on, is shall we say, a little suspect judging by some of the ridiculous statements being spouted.

All the equines taking part in the aforementioned activities will have been fed, kept warm, given shelter and veterinary care as required and in return they work for our pleasure, gratification, monetary gain and prestige.  So shall we ban horse sports.  Shall we stop breeding high calibre equines.  What shall we do the millions of horses, put them in a paddock, admire them from afar, put a bit of bling on them, I will let you decide.

That mare has stood in muck for months, starved and neglected, there are many more like her.  It is her and her like that need welfare care.


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## fburton (20 July 2014)

Thanks for clarifying your position, Nancykitt. I agree that these sort of comparisons are not particularly helpful. At least, I don't like the way they distract from the issue under discussion.


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## fburton (20 July 2014)

AdorableAlice said:



			You would gain far more respect by campaigning for the welfare of horses like that poor mare or the thousands of horses that have never seen the inside of a feed bucket or heard a kind word in their, often very short, lives.
		
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It surely possible (and right) to do both; one shouldn't preclude the other.


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## fburton (20 July 2014)

Nancykitt said:



			I think that's the main point I was trying to make - that we should be vigilant about welfare issues in all spheres rather than focus on a particular discipline.
		
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100% agree with this.


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## SpringArising (20 July 2014)

AdorableAlice said:



			Not at all.  I really do wonder if some of you 'horsemen' can actually see beyond the 'pretty pony' style of horse keeping.
		
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If you're looking to discuss this topic with a fluffy somebody who treats her horses as children, then I'm afraid you're talking to the wrong person here. 

That being said, I show my 'care' for my horses in other ways. I don't over bit, over tack or use force to get to where I want to be. That's what we're talking about here; not which horse has seen the inside of a feed bucket. Frankly, if you think the horses are fine and happy just because they have access to feed and a vet, then you live in a very blissful (abeit ignorant) world.


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## amandap (20 July 2014)

I must have misunderstood Nancykitt's post. I took it as a commentary on the way the thread has gone.

ps. I don't own one single piece of bling if that's how one measures horsemanship! It's not a measure I use.


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## The Fuzzy Furry (20 July 2014)

SpringArising said:



			If you're looking to discuss this topic with a fluffy somebody who treats her horses as children, then I'm afraid you're talking to the wrong person here. 

That being said, I show my 'care' for my horses in other ways. I don't over bit, over tack or use force to get to where I want to be. That's what we're talking about here; not which horse has seen the inside of a feed bucket. Frankly, if you think the horses are fine and happy just because they have access to feed and a vet, then you live in a very blissful (abeit ignorant) world.
		
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Having been on the end of your sharp barbed tongue and also been accused of not being in the real world,  do you think before you throw such statements?
 You, cpt and moomin1 have kept this thread going and going. When someone responds, they get shot down by 1 of the 3 of you.
One poster has put up a well thought,  diffusing post,  and still this thread gets dragged down.
Can you 3 just take a step back and allow others to also have opinions, all valid as well as yours?


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## Moomin1 (20 July 2014)

The Fuzzy Furry said:



			Having been on the end of your sharp barbed tongue and also been accused of not being in the real world,  do you think before you throw such statements?
 You, cpt and moomin1 have kept this thread going and going. When someone responds, they get shot down by 1 of the 3 of you.
One poster has put up a well thought,  diffusing post,  and still this thread gets dragged down.
Can you 3 just take a step back and allow others to also have opinions, all valid as well as yours?
		
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It's called debate.


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## The Fuzzy Furry (20 July 2014)

Moomin1 said:



			It's called debate.
		
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a debate is something where a subject is discussed, look back at the hectoring posts,  this is not debate.


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## cptrayes (20 July 2014)

The Fuzzy Furry said:



			Having been on the end of your sharp barbed tongue and also been accused of not being in the real world,  do you think before you throw such statements?
 You, cpt and moomin1 have kept this thread going and going. When someone responds, they get shot down by 1 of the 3 of you.
One poster has put up a well thought,  diffusing post,  and still this thread gets dragged down.
Can you 3 just take a step back and allow others to also have opinions, all valid as well as yours?
		
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I stayed out for days until people posted some daft things. It wassn't me that kept it going, and if it had been, why do you blame us and not the other side of the argument?

IT TAKES TWO!

And what a ridiculous thing to suggest, that we are preventing anyone from expressing their point of view.


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## khalswitz (20 July 2014)

cptrayes said:



			I stayed out for days until people posted some daft things. It wassn't me that kept it going, and if it had been, why do you blame us and not the other side of the argument?

IT TAKES TWO!

And what a ridiculous thing to suggest, that we are preventing anyone from expressing their point of view.
		
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I disagree regarding polo, but agree with you here. Up til now I thought this thread had stayed reasonably insult-free-ish... for HHO


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## Moomin1 (20 July 2014)

The Fuzzy Furry said:



			a debate is something where a subject is discussed, look back at the hectoring posts,  this is not debate.
		
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 The subject has been discussed. There are many different opinions. People have not agreed with each other. It's a debate and discussion.  What are we meant to do? Suddenly agree with your view? Or agree with the fact that some people think unless you have played polo or worked on a polo yard and see how much feed they get or what nice boots they wear then we have no right to make a judgement on welfare (which had nothing to do with feed, vets or expensive boots, but purely down to match play, style of riding and use of tack)?


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## zigzag (20 July 2014)

So CPtrayes/Moomin, what would you like to see changed in polo?

CPtrayes you do dressage, there is just as much cruelty in that? yet you continue to support it?


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## cptrayes (20 July 2014)

AdorableAlice said:



			That mare has stood in muck for months, starved and neglected, there are many more like her.  It is her and her like that need welfare care.
		
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First time in my life that I've ever been accused of being a fluffy bunny 

That mare was not part of an organised sport frequently played in front of paying crowds as entertainment for both players and spectators.

Two wrongs don't make a right.


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## cptrayes (20 July 2014)

zigzag said:



			So CPtrayes/Moomin, what would you like to see changed in polo?

CPtrayes you do dressage, there is just as much cruelty in that? yet you continue to support it?
		
Click to expand...

I want to see polo played only by ponies that have the aptitude to pay it without being heavily restrained and roughly ridden. We have already been told that such ponies exist.  I want to hear occasional reports of rough riders being disciplined. I want a weight limit on riders - which is new since I read the arguments on this thread.

I have never seen anything during the course of a dressage competition happen in the ring in front of an audience  that remotely compares to the pictures I put up above. And if I had, the horse would have been eliminated and the rider probably banned for a period.


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## Olderrider (20 July 2014)

I am intrigued to know why you singled out polo when you agree with others that all disciplines have welfare issues?


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## Moomin1 (20 July 2014)

zigzag said:



			So CPtrayes/Moomin, what would you like to see changed in polo?

CPtrayes you do dressage, there is just as much cruelty in that? yet you continue to support it?
		
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I thought that was pretty obvious. I would want less use of the bit/harsh use of the bit and riding style. If that's not possible due to game logistics, then personally I would want it banned. End of.


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## zigzag (20 July 2014)

cptrayes said:



			I want to see poll played only by ponies that have the aptitude to pay it without being heavily restrained and roughly ridden. I want to hear reports of rough riders being disciplined.

I have never seen anything during the course of a dressage competition happen in the ring in front of a crowd that remotely compared to the pictures I put up above. And if I had, the horse would have been eliminated and the rider probably banned for a period.
		
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So the fact cruelty goes on behind closed doors is ok?


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## Moomin1 (20 July 2014)

Olderrider said:



			I am intrigued to know why you singled out polo when you agree with others that all disciplines have welfare issues?
		
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Does it actually matter?!


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## Evie91 (20 July 2014)

Cptrayes I have to disagree. Recently there was a thread with a dressage horse with a blue tongue due to be strapped down. It was being ridden at what looked like a competition.
Personally what I've seen from the polo pics you have posted is preferable to that! Although none is agreeable!


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## cptrayes (20 July 2014)

zigzag said:



			So the fact cruelty goes on behind closed doors is ok?
		
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Please can we have a better argument than this?

If cruelty is less in the ring in other sports but goes on behind closed doors, and cruelty, or what I perceive as abusive riding goes on in the arena in front of a paying crowd in polo, then how much more goes on behind closed doors?

NO deliberate abuse of a horse is acceptable. Of course what one person considers abuse is different from another, which is why I agreed to differ days ago.


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## cptrayes (20 July 2014)

Evie91 said:



			Cptrayes I have to disagree. Recently there was a thread with a dressage horse with a blue tongue due to be strapped down. It was being ridden at what looked like a competition.
Personally what I've seen from the polo pics you have posted is preferable to that! Although none is agreeable!
		
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Not in the ring as part of the sport that the crowd paid to see. If it had been seen by a judge the test would have been stopped, as it once was with Parzival because he had bitten his tongue and had the tiniest amount of blood on his mouth.

The blue tongue stuff is condemned by everyone and against the rules even in the warm up. Stewards have the authority to stop it. Whether they do or not is another matter.

In polo, it is not against the rules, it is simply accepted as part and parcel of the game.


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## cptrayes (20 July 2014)

Olderrider said:



			I am intrigued to know why you singled out polo when you agree with others that all disciplines have welfare issues?
		
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This thread is about polo. How can I write about every abuse in every sport I see and make any coherent argument? Look back in my posting history for my attitude to abuse in other sports, you'll find plenty.

You'll also find plenty of disagreement with people who think horses should never be hit. I am no fluffy bunny.

I started the thread because I could not understand how what I consider is abusive to horses was necessary in order to play the game. And from people within polo itself I found out that it isn't.

At that point, I left the discussion, agreeing in an adult fashion to agree to disagree. Would that other people could do the same.


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## teabiscuit (20 July 2014)

I have seen ugly riding at prelim/novice BD comps. I had to walk away. Nothing that you
I don't like to watch polo, the riders look too big and the ponies do look pulled about. But I don't know the first thing about the game.


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## khalswitz (20 July 2014)

cptrayes said:



			I have never seen anything during the course of a dressage competition happen in the ring in front of an audience  that remotely compares to the pictures I put up above. And if I had, the horse would have been eliminated and the rider probably banned for a period.
		
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Interestingly, I have. Not at higher levels, but I have at grassroots. I regularly judge write, and commonly see riders with hands by their knees, sawing on mouths in a blunt snaffle, with horses' mouths strapped shut. I think that is equally as bad, and IME far more prevalent.

In SJ, I regularly see draw reins in warm-ups, hauling horses in. I've even seen a double bridle with both reins through a martingale, and draw reins through the leverage end of an elevator. Both I'd say horrific.

And these are the things you see in the warm-up/the ring where public are watching, not behind closed doors.

Interestingly, and again IME, it is lower, more grassroots level polo that is more likely to be a problem, too. 

Not that either circumstance exhumes the other, but that every sport has it's welfare issues. This doesn't mean preventatives shouldn't be sought, but that, unfortunately, no horse sports are problem free.

However, I will agree re: the weight limit thing. That could be something worth considering. However, I still don't think you'd ever see a weight limit below 16 stone or so, unfortunately - polo is very male-dominated!


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## teabiscuit (20 July 2014)

I have seen ugly riding at prelim/novice BD comps. I had to walk away. Nothing that you could report anyone for, but I felt so sorry for the horses. Riders too big, riding like a sack of spuds banging on unmuscled backs, see sawing reins ... I could go on and on. It seems parr for the course. 
I don't like to watch polo, the riders look too big and the ponies do look pulled about. They do look balanced though. But I don't know the first thing about the game.

Two wrongs don't make a right 
and this thread is about polo, not polo vs dressage, which is more ghastly for the horses. 

Still, I do see similarities. Strapping down with flash nosebands, forced into the desired frame. I could go on and on. 

I guess some polo fans feel just as strongly that dressage has welfare issues to deal with too. And I'd agree with them.


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## SpringArising (20 July 2014)

teabiscuit said:



			I have seen ugly riding at prelim/novice BD comps. I had to walk away. Nothing that you could report anyone for, but I felt so sorry for the horses. Riders too big, riding like a sack of spuds banging on unmuscled backs, see sawing reins ... I could go on and on. It seems parr for the course. 
I don't like to watch polo, the riders look too big and the ponies do look pulled about. They do look balanced though. But I don't know the first thing about the game.

Two wrongs don't make a right 
and this thread is about polo, not polo vs dressage, which is more ghastly for the horses. 

Still, I do see similarities. Strapping down with flash nosebands, forced into the desired frame. I could go on and on. 

I guess some polo fans feel just as strongly that dressage has welfare issues to deal with too. And I'd agree with them.
		
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I agree with everything you said. Polo is by no means the only sport where ugly things are seen. 

There's an issue with the way horses are treated every discipline, whether it be dressage, SJ, XC, racing or hunting. I've seen and watched some vile things from hunting lately (some of them being far worse than polo), but that still doesn't mean the welfare couldn't be improved for polo.


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## ChesnutsRoasting (20 July 2014)

teabiscuit said:



			I have seen ugly riding at prelim/novice BD comps. I had to walk away. Nothing that you could report anyone for, but I felt so sorry for the horses. Riders too big, riding like a sack of spuds banging on unmuscled backs, see sawing reins ... I could go on and on. It seems parr for the course. 
I don't like to watch polo, the riders look too big and the ponies do look pulled about. They do look balanced though. But I don't know the first thing about the game.

Two wrongs don't make a right 
and this thread is about polo, not polo vs dressage, which is more ghastly for the horses. 

Still, I do see similarities. Strapping down with flash nosebands, forced into the desired frame. I could go on and on. 

I guess some polo fans feel just as strongly that dressage has welfare issues to deal with too. And I'd agree with them.
		
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You may not know the game but you understand riding that could be detrimental to the horses wellbeing. Doesn't matter what activity the horse is doing, welfare should be the priority  - though I do realise that this is wishful thinking, sadly.


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## Mariposa (20 July 2014)

cptrayes said:



			Not in the ring as part of the sport that the crowd paid to see. If it had been seen by a judge the test would have been stopped, as it once was with Parzival because he had bitten his tongue and had the tiniest amount of blood on his mouth.

The blue tongue stuff is condemned by everyone and against the rules even in the warm up. Stewards have the authority to stop it. Whether they do or not is another matter.

In polo, it is not against the rules, it is simply accepted as part and parcel of the game.
		
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Actually there are stringent pony welfare rules in place, and every member of the HPA receives a blue book of Pony Welfare rules, and each club has a Welfare Officer. 

Umpires and Welfare Officers will send off a pony who they see in any distress. 

Some of those rules are ( and I'm not sure if this is of interest but given we seem to be discussing whether a pony's welfare is taken into consideration they seem pertinent) 
*Turnout and Prohibited Tack.*
Ponies are expected to be well turned out and poor or badly fitted tack is not allowed (see note for best playing or turned out pony). Each pony must be protected by bandages or boots on all four legs and it must have its tail put up.
Any equipment that has sharp projections which might cause injury to the pony or any other ponyor player is forbidden.

The following are not allowed to be used during any game:
(i)A noseband, headpiece or headcollar which incorporates wire or any sharp material.
(ii)A hackamore or bitless bridle (may be used in practice chukkas at the discretion of the club).
(iii)Blinkers or any form of noseband or other equipment which obstructs the vision of the pony.
(iv)The mouthpiece of any bit, whether single or double, of not less than 0.25 inch (6.50 mm)
in diameter at its narrowest point.
(v)The total cheek length of a curb bit may not exceed 6 inches (15.2cms).
(vi)A tongue tie unless inspected by a MRCVS immediately prior to the chukka. The tongue tie must be removed as soon as the pony leaves the field of play.
10g.
*Pony to Be Sent Off.*
 A pony suffering from any of the followingconditions is not permitted to play and if playing must be sent off immediately:
(i)Lame
(ii)Showing signs of distress
(iii)Not under proper control or showing vice
(iv)Showing blood from any part

Like I said, I'm not sure if this will be of interest, but thought I'd attempt to illustrate that actually welfare and pony's health are taken pretty seriously in polo, and I hope that this helps a little to show that.


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## Evie91 (20 July 2014)

Just to add a non horsey perspective; my husband who is completely non horsey, refuses to watch most dressage as he thinks it's cruel. He thinks piaffe movements are unnatural to the horse and believes it must put stress on the muscles and skeleton to perform such controlled movements. However, he will watch cross country, racing, polo as in his eyes the horse also seems to be enjoying it too and he feels running and jumping come more naturally.


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## SpringArising (20 July 2014)

Mariposa said:



			The following are not allowed to be used during any game:

(i)A noseband, headpiece or headcollar which incorporates wire or any sharp material.
		
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This is hardly a strict rule; it almost sounds comical because I can't imagine that anyone has something like this anyway, in any discipline.



Mariposa said:



			Showing signs of distress
		
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Define distress. We've seen plenty which hasn't been pulled up on.


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## SpringArising (20 July 2014)

Evie91 said:



			as in his eyes the horse also seems to be enjoying it too
		
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Your husband sounds very sweet for caring, but novices/non horsey people don't see the signs of distress or discomfort that we can.


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## cptrayes (20 July 2014)

Thanks for the rules Mariposa, they are interesting.

I think the crux of the discussion on this thread hinges around each individual's definition of distress.

I could not agree from what I see on videos that ponies in distress are removed from the field, but I do agree that the distress from each incident is not prolonged. I remain concerned about heavy riders on slightly built horses.

Again, I am happy to agree to differ.


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## ChesnutsRoasting (20 July 2014)

AdorableAlice said:



			Not at all.  I really do wonder if some of you 'horsemen' can actually see beyond the 'pretty pony' style of horse keeping.

You would gain far more respect by campaigning for the welfare of horses like that poor mare or the thousands of horses that have never seen the inside of a feed bucket or heard a kind word in their, often very short, lives.

Your expertise, experience and opinions on polo, racing, hunting, eventing, dressage the Kings Troop, western riding,  lets add showjumping, I am watching Aachen at the moment, bit of rolkur going on and plenty of yanking and pulling going on, is shall we say, a little suspect judging by some of the ridiculous statements being spouted.

All the equines taking part in the aforementioned activities will have been fed, kept warm, given shelter and veterinary care as required and in return they work for our pleasure, gratification, monetary gain and prestige.  So shall we ban horse sports.  Shall we stop breeding high calibre equines.  What shall we do the millions of horses, put them in a paddock, admire them from afar, put a bit of bling on them, I will let you decide.

That mare has stood in muck for months, starved and neglected, there are many more like her.  It is her and her like that need welfare care.
		
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Cruelty is cruelty - it comes in many disguises. The animals welfare has to be paramount, not the humans ego.


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## ChesnutsRoasting (20 July 2014)

Mariposa said:



			Actually there are stringent pony welfare rules in place, and every member of the HPA receives a blue book of Pony Welfare rules, and each club has a Welfare Officer. 

Umpires and Welfare Officers will send off a pony who they see in any distress. 

Some of those rules are ( and I'm not sure if this is of interest but given we seem to be discussing whether a pony's welfare is taken into consideration they seem pertinent) 
*Turnout and Prohibited Tack.*
Ponies are expected to be well turned out and poor or badly fitted tack is not allowed (see note for best playing or turned out pony). Each pony must be protected by bandages or boots on all four legs and it must have its tail put up.
Any equipment that has sharp projections which might cause injury to the pony or any other ponyor player is forbidden.

The following are not allowed to be used during any game:
(i)A noseband, headpiece or headcollar which incorporates wire or any sharp material.
(ii)A hackamore or bitless bridle (may be used in practice chukkas at the discretion of the club).
(iii)Blinkers or any form of noseband or other equipment which obstructs the vision of the pony.
(iv)The mouthpiece of any bit, whether single or double, of not less than 0.25 inch (6.50 mm)
in diameter at its narrowest point.
(v)The total cheek length of a curb bit may not exceed 6 inches (15.2cms).
(vi)A tongue tie unless inspected by a MRCVS immediately prior to the chukka. The tongue tie must be removed as soon as the pony leaves the field of play.
10g.
*Pony to Be Sent Off.*
 A pony suffering from any of the followingconditions is not permitted to play and if playing must be sent off immediately:
(i)Lame
(ii)Showing signs of distress
(iii)Not under proper control or showing vice
(iv)Showing blood from any part

Like I said, I'm not sure if this will be of interest, but thought I'd attempt to illustrate that actually welfare and pony's health are taken pretty seriously in polo, and I hope that this helps a little to show that.
		
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 Its all a bit airy fairy though & based on an individuals opinion at the time. 

Any bit can be severe in hard hands & bitless bridles work in different ways. Polo isn't about the horses wellbeing but more to do with the glitz & glam. Fair enough. But at least have the balls & admit it.


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## Mariposa (20 July 2014)

cptrayes said:



			I think the crux of the discussion on this thread hinges around each individual's definition of distress.
		
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Yes, I think so. Personally I don't find polo ponies to be hugely distressed on the ground -but that is in my experience and my definition of distress. I love each of my ponies as much as any of the horse owners on this forum, and they are very much treated as individuals, not just a job lot. 

That's not to say that polo ponies have an easy life, they play hard - often on hard ground, at speed. 

I  also think there is much to be desired about the way _some_ ponies are wintered, but then I am a soft touch with mine, they are rugged up, fed twice daily throughout the winter and bought in when it gets too cold/wet. But I'd rather have people think I was a soft touch than feel my ponies weren't ok. Educating the younger players is paramount in my opinion so they know that stable management is more important than goals.



blazingsaddles said:



			Its all a bit airy fairy though & based on an individuals opinion at the time. 

Any bit can be severe in hard hands & bitless bridles work in different ways. Polo isn't about the horses wellbeing but more to do with the glitz & glam. Fair enough. But at least have the balls & admit it.
		
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No, polo for me is anything BUT glitz and glam. Clearly you're talking about high goal, not grass roots low goal polo. High Goal is a tiny percentage of the season ( it ends in the UK today with the final of the Gold Cup...the low goal season stretches through to September). I couldn't give a toss about glitz and glam, I play because I love it. Maybe the spectators are there for the 'glam' but grooms and players...no.


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## ChesnutsRoasting (20 July 2014)

Mariposa said:



			Yes, I think so. Personally I don't find polo ponies to be hugely distressed on the ground -but that is in my experience and my definition of distress. I love each of my ponies as much as any of the horse owners on this forum, and they are very much treated as individuals, not just a job lot. 

That's not to say that polo ponies have an easy life, they play hard - often on hard ground, at speed. 

I  also think there is much to be desired about the way _some_ ponies are wintered, but then I am a soft touch with mine, they are rugged up, fed twice daily throughout the winter and bought in when it gets too cold/wet. But I'd rather have people think I was a soft touch than feel my ponies weren't ok. Educating the younger players is paramount in my opinion so they know that stable management is more important than goals.


No, polo for me is anything BUT glitz and glam. Clearly you're talking about high goal, not grass roots low goal polo. High Goal is a tiny percentage of the season ( it ends in the UK today with the final of the Gold Cup...the low goal season stretches through to September). I couldn't give a toss about glitz and glam, I play because I love it. Maybe the spectators are there for the 'glam' but grooms and players...no.
		
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You are right, my experiences as a spectator are high goal. But, distress is distress, hugely or not.


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## Mariposa (20 July 2014)

blazingsaddles said:



			You are right, my experiences as a spectator are high goal. But, distress is distress, hugely or not.
		
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And what is actual distress is something that we'll probably not see eye to eye on - but I do appreciate from seeing some photos of ponies with their mouths open that it would be possible to form that opinion, and those fleeting moments do nothing for the PR of the sport.


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## ChesnutsRoasting (20 July 2014)

Mariposa said:



			And what is actual distress is something that we'll probably not see eye to eye on - but I do appreciate from seeing some photos of ponies with their mouths open that it would be possible to form that opinion, and those fleeting moments do nothing for the PR of the sport.
		
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Or riders that are too heavy for their mounts?


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## SO1 (20 July 2014)

Wow those rules imply that without the rules the lovely people who play polo might do those things. I don't even know what a tongue tie is but it does not sound very nice.

I was also wondering if at top levels of polo such as the international levels are there are dope testing on the horses to make sure people are not using medical substances to enable horses to compete when it is not in the best interest of the horse due to a medical condition?

I don't think polo is the only competitive equine sport that brings out the worst in people, it can happen in any discipline at any level if people get over competitive be it at Prelim dressage or International Polo and sometimes the desire to be competitive takes over and everything else is forgotten or becomes less important. The problem with equine sports is that we need an equine partner to do well and that partner has no say in how or what we do to get there and if things go wrong or we make an error of judgement then it tend to be the horse rather than the rider who suffers.

I think there are very few riders who compete who have never made an error of judgement that has had an impact on the horses and I include myself in this category even though I would be considered a "fluffy" horse owner by many and want to do the best for my horse.



Mariposa said:



			Actually there are stringent pony welfare rules in place, and every member of the HPA receives a blue book of Pony Welfare rules, and each club has a Welfare Officer. 

Umpires and Welfare Officers will send off a pony who they see in any distress. 

Some of those rules are ( and I'm not sure if this is of interest but given we seem to be discussing whether a pony's welfare is taken into consideration they seem pertinent) 
*Turnout and Prohibited Tack.*
Ponies are expected to be well turned out and poor or badly fitted tack is not allowed (see note for best playing or turned out pony). Each pony must be protected by bandages or boots on all four legs and it must have its tail put up.
Any equipment that has sharp projections which might cause injury to the pony or any other ponyor player is forbidden.

The following are not allowed to be used during any game:
(i)A noseband, headpiece or headcollar which incorporates wire or any sharp material.
(ii)A hackamore or bitless bridle (may be used in practice chukkas at the discretion of the club).
(iii)Blinkers or any form of noseband or other equipment which obstructs the vision of the pony.
(iv)The mouthpiece of any bit, whether single or double, of not less than 0.25 inch (6.50 mm)
in diameter at its narrowest point.
(v)The total cheek length of a curb bit may not exceed 6 inches (15.2cms).
(vi)A tongue tie unless inspected by a MRCVS immediately prior to the chukka. The tongue tie must be removed as soon as the pony leaves the field of play.
10g.
*Pony to Be Sent Off.*
 A pony suffering from any of the followingconditions is not permitted to play and if playing must be sent off immediately:
(i)Lame
(ii)Showing signs of distress
(iii)Not under proper control or showing vice
(iv)Showing blood from any part

Like I said, I'm not sure if this will be of interest, but thought I'd attempt to illustrate that actually welfare and pony's health are taken pretty seriously in polo, and I hope that this helps a little to show that.
		
Click to expand...


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## Mariposa (20 July 2014)

blazingsaddles said:



			Or riders that are too heavy for their mounts?
		
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No, because I've not had any experience or observed a player I thought was too heavy for their mount. My opinion is that a taller or heavier rider with balance and good hands is preferable over a thumping novice with heavy hands no matter how skinny they are - but again, that's my opinion ( and one I am sure you won't agree with of course!)


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## Moomin1 (20 July 2014)

Mariposa said:



			No, because I've not had any experience or observed a player I thought was too heavy for their mount. My opinion is that a taller or heavier rider with balance and good hands is preferable over a thumping novice with heavy hands no matter how skinny they are - but again, that's my opinion ( and one I am sure you won't agree with of course!)
		
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And the problem is that there are polo players out there (as shown by many photos) that do not have good hands.


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## SO1 (20 July 2014)

I agree in some respect but the experienced heavier riders must have been novices at polo at some point and what were they riding then? i presume  not all polo players take up polo as when they are children so adult novice men I presume would learn on the standard light type of polo pony not a heavier riding school type?



Mariposa said:



			No, because I've not had any experience or observed a player I thought was too heavy for their mount. My opinion is that a taller or heavier rider with balance and good hands is preferable over a thumping novice with heavy hands no matter how skinny they are - but again, that's my opinion ( and one I am sure you won't agree with of course!)
		
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## Mariposa (20 July 2014)

SO1 said:



			I agree in some respect but the experienced heavier riders must have been novices at polo at some point and what were they riding then? i presume  not all polo players take up polo as when they are children so adult novice men I presume would learn on the standard light type of polo pony not a heavier riding school type?
		
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A 'standard' polo pony would be a criollo ( below are some of Grange Farm's lovely criollos), usually from south american and chunky, tough type - they are quieter and thus the type polo schools and novices use. Not a lightweight pony by any means ( and my favourite type to play - I don't bounce anymore!)







TBs are certainly used alot, but not by novices. For example you'll see TB types in the medium/high goal - like this lovely fit mare of Facundo Pieres.


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## Mariposa (20 July 2014)

SO1 said:



			Wow those rules imply that without the rules the lovely people who play polo might do those things. I don't even know what a tongue tie is but it does not sound very nice.

I was also wondering if at top levels of polo such as the international levels are there are dope testing on the horses to make sure people are not using medical substances to enable horses to compete when it is not in the best interest of the horse due to a medical condition?
		
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Sorry - only just saw this reply. 

 The FEI's website has their rules for all sports - all include welfare sections, but I'm sure that doesn't mean or imply that the lovely people who show jump/ event / etc would be abusing their horses without them...does it? I'd rather have guidelines in all disciplines that safeguard the horses.

And a tongue tie is mostly used in racing from my experience, from when a horse keeps putting their tongue over the bit. You'll often see it at the races, I've never seen it in any other discipline. 

And lastly, yes there is dope testing in all levels of polo- for players and ponies. 

And on that note I'm going to quit this thread as clearly it's going to go round and round in circles! People will have their own opinion of polo, and nothing I or any polo supporter says on here will change that.


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## Nancykitt (21 July 2014)

amandap said:



			I must have misunderstood Nancykitt's post. I took it as a commentary on the way the thread has gone.
		
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No, you were quite right, amandap, it was indeed a commentary on the way this post had gone. It had turned into a sort of 'x is more cruel than y' type of argument which I don't approve of on the basis that it is rare for anything of value to come from that type of argument. Especially if people's views are then followed by the 'two wrongs don't make a right' argument, borne out of the idea that people are saying 'if polo is cruel then so is dressage and that makes it OK'. But I don't think anyone is saying that - I think that some polo supporters were genuinely interested in why polo had been singled out as being worse than any other discipline, to the point of talk of it being 'banned'. 

I know absolutely nothing about polo but I'm prepared to believe that there is good practice and bad practice. I have seen some really bad things out hunting, including novicey riders that are much too heavy for their horses hauling about on mouths with strong bits. But I've also seen some excellent riding out hunting. Some of the worst stuff I've seen has been at local shows, including pre-class lungeing in side reins that were ridiculously tight, lame ponies actually winning classes, and heavy handed riders pulling horses around in long shank pelhams with over-tight curb bits. I've also seen some good riding at shows. If I was to say 'all hunting, showing, dressage and eventing should be banned unless the undesirable practice stops immediately' I 'm sure I would be ridiculed. Initially, it is up to the organising bodies to regulate welfare within their sport and I think that any concerns must be tackled that way initially. 'Banning' anything is rarely a simple solution.

And Mariposa, yes, you are right, you clearly know a great deal about the sport and I have enjoyed your posts. But I think that there are some very firmly entrenched beliefs here. If 'agreeing to disagree' is the accepted outcome of the discussion it makes me wonder why we have these 'debates' at all.


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## cptrayes (21 July 2014)

Nancykitt said:



			. If 'agreeing to disagree' is the accepted outcome of the discussion it makes me wonder why we have these 'debates' at all.
		
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Since I think I am the only person who has done this, I take it your comment is aimed at me?

Debate does not mean that views were entrenched before the discussion started. 

Debate does not mean that the person who started the debate should change their mind if the other side do not put forward arguments strong enough to make this happen.

Quite the reverse has happened here. I started the thread to ask why polo ponies played with so much tack on, and far from being persuaded that it was needed, I have been told by people in polo that some ponies with greater aptitude play without it, and that less skilful players could play without it if they slowed the game down.

I think this means that ponies should be chosen so that only the ones with the aptitude to play without the restraints play, and that less skilful players should play a slower game without the excessive tack.

If people in polo disagree with that then I am happy to disagree with them and leave it there.

What is your problem with that? And why do you perceive 'entrenched views' on only one side of this debate?


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## Nancykitt (21 July 2014)

cptrayes said:



			What is your problem with that? And why do you perceive 'entrenched views' on only one side of this debate?
		
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I don't have a problem with it at all. 

And no, I wasn't 'aiming' my post at anyone in particular. 

And although I did say 'I think that there are some very firmly entrenched beliefs here' I would like to see where I've said that these are on one side only. 

One problem with this sort of argument is that there is a great deal of sensitivity surrounding 'welfare issues'. While this is fundamentally a good thing, there's a danger that some people may perceive other's views along the lines of 'You don't care about horses' welfare as much as I do', which is bound to bring out some strong reactions. 

Perhaps some people will be able to see what I'm getting at.


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## tabithakat64 (21 July 2014)

fburton said:



			How common is it for poor match riding of polo ponies to be corrected? Genuine question.
		
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 Bad/poor riding was picked up on by the yard manager and discussed post match.  However, I have never seen anyone sent off by the referee/umpire for poor riding during a match.


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## fburton (21 July 2014)

Nancykitt said:



			No, you were quite right, amandap, it was indeed a commentary on the way this post had gone.
		
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In which case, I misinterpreted it rather badly, for which I apologize.


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## Nancykitt (21 July 2014)

Apologies fburton - having read your subsequent posts I thought that we were basically singing from the same sheet. Actually, I think that we probably are.


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## fburton (21 July 2014)

Nancykitt said:



			Apologies fburton - having read your subsequent posts I thought that we were basically singing from the same sheet. Actually, I think that we probably are.
		
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Yes, I think so too! It's just my initial response to your post #277 was poorly judged because it was based on a misunderstanding.


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## Meowy Catkin (21 July 2014)

Mariposa - I've become more aware about the rules Re bitless bridles since I bought a horse that has very strong ideas about bits (he doesn't like them). I was wondering why they are banned for Polo? In my ignorance RE Polo, I can't see why they are banned as western riders can rapidly stop, spin, turn their horses etc... in a bitless bridle.


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## teapot (21 July 2014)

cptrayes said:



			I want to see polo played only by ponies that have the aptitude to pay it without being heavily restrained and roughly ridden. We have already been told that such ponies exist.  I want to hear occasional reports of rough riders being disciplined. I want a weight limit on riders - which is new since I read the arguments on this thread.

I have never seen anything during the course of a dressage competition happen in the ring in front of an audience  that remotely compares to the pictures I put up above. And if I had, the horse would have been eliminated and the rider probably banned for a period.
		
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Put too much of a weight limit on polo and the sport could potentially go. Not saying all those who play are rich and overweight but it's known to happen and the term 'fat cat' isn't there for any old reason. 


Also the rule book is here if you fancy a read, has a section on welfare and everything http://www.hpa-polo.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/HPA-Rules-2014.pdf


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## khalswitz (21 July 2014)

Faracat said:



			Mariposa - I've become more aware about the rules Re bitless bridles since I bought a horse that has very strong ideas about bits (he doesn't like them). I was wondering why they are banned for Polo? In my ignorance RE Polo, I can't see why they are banned as western riders can rapidly stop, spin, turn their horses etc... in a bitless bridle.
		
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Possibly because of the requirement for a standing martingale. I know many types of milder bitless use noseband pressure do they not?


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## ester (21 July 2014)

yes but the same as with the drop nosebands you could have another one


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## Meowy Catkin (21 July 2014)

ester said:



			yes but the same as with the drop nosebands you could have another one 

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That was my thought - as long as they don't interfere with each other. Maybe it's not possible? I have seen endurance horses bitless with a headcollar underneath, so why not a cavesson?

This is a combination bitless/headcollar bride, but you can see how you could have a bitless bridle plus a cavesson for the standing to attach to.


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## khalswitz (21 July 2014)

Faracat said:



			That was my thought - as long as they don't interfere with each other. Maybe it's not possible? I have seen endurance horses bitless with a headcollar underneath, so why not a cavesson?
		
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I suppose. But do most crossunders/sidepulls not sit in the same place as a cavesson? Does that mean one or the other would have to be fitted wrongly to have both together?


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## cptrayes (21 July 2014)

teapot said:



			Put too much of a weight limit on polo and the sport could potentially go. Not saying all those who play are rich and overweight but it's known to happen and the term 'fat cat' isn't there for any old reason.
		
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I'm not quite sure this stacks up very well as an argument for heavy riders being allowed to play, does it?

Did I read it wrong?


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## khalswitz (21 July 2014)

cptrayes said:



			I'm not quite sure this stacks up very well as an argument for heavy riders being allowed to play, does it?

Did I read it wrong?
		
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No, it's not an argument for it or a defines of it, merely a reason why a weight limit is unlikely to be successful, I assumed.

In a very male dominated sport a weight limit is unlikely to be practical, however there are surely more practical ways of promoting welfare, as has been mentioned with criollo ponies - why not have a minimum bone for certain weights, say?


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## ChesnutsRoasting (21 July 2014)

khalswitz said:



			I suppose. But do most crossunders/sidepulls not sit in the same place as a cavesson? Does that mean one or the other would have to be fitted wrongly to have both together?
		
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Crossunders are fitted lower & snug (in other words tight). Sidepulls are fitted similarly to a Cavesson.  I'm not anti-bit & believe me,my life would have been easier if my horse didn't object to bits. There's ignorance & prejudice surrounding bitless bridles especially in established equestrian sports, hopefully the new blood will enlighten the old blood.


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## teapot (21 July 2014)

khalswitz said:



			No, it's not an argument for it or a defines of it, merely a reason why a weight limit is unlikely to be successful, I assumed.

In a very male dominated sport a weight limit is unlikely to be practical, however there are surely more practical ways of promoting welfare, as has been mentioned with criollo ponies - why not have a minimum bone for certain weights, say?
		
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Thank you khalswitz, you understood what I meant


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## khalswitz (21 July 2014)

blazingsaddles said:



			Crossunders are fitted lower & snug (in other words tight). Sidepulls are fitted similarly to a Cavesson.  I'm not anti-bit & believe me,my life would have been easier if my horse didn't object to bits. There's ignorance & prejudice surrounding bitless bridles especially in established equestrian sports, hopefully the new blood will enlighten the old blood.
		
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Well, if crossunders fit alongside a cavesson for a standing martinagle, and horse is happier in it, then I don't see why they shouldn't be allowed (except in dressage - I am afraid I am a purist there regarding bitless!). 

My only other concern (and please tell me if I am wrong) would be the speed of the release of pressure. How quickly does a bitless like a crossunder release the pressure when contact is dropped? Obviously polo is a quick game, and very quick signals are given (hence the shanked bits, very quick responses are required, I always think similarly to how a double bridle allows for greater communication in the dressage ring a shanked bit does for western and polo, in a different way) so a cross under would need to be able to release very quickly?


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## Meowy Catkin (22 July 2014)

There's so many different bitless bridles, I'm sure that there is something that would work.

BTW, I can't see any reason why you couldn't have bitless dressage? Maybe separate classes just to placate the purists.  As i said owning my gelding has really opened my eyes to the world of bitless, i've got so much to learn still.


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## khalswitz (22 July 2014)

Faracat said:



			There's so many different bitless bridles, I'm sure that there is something that would work.

BTW, I can't see any reason why you couldn't have bitless dressage? Maybe separate classes just to placate the purists.  As i said owning my gelding has really opened my eyes to the world of bitless, i've got so much to learn still.
		
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It's not bitless specifically that I oppose in dressage - but if leverage bits are banned, why should a bridle that puts pressure on the nose/jaw/poll be allowed? I know there are some very mild forms of bitless, but using pressure elsewhere on the head means the horse is not submitting to the bit, but to nose pressure/poll pressure/jaw pressure. And that's the case whether it is bit less or a gag or a say banned nosebands like grackles or kinetons.

Having watched a few videos of supposedly good quality dressage bitless in very mild bridle setups, I think there is a fairly obvious difference in the way of going in a bitless - the milder types argued as being suitable for dressage don't look subtle enough IMO and collection in one looks more difficult than it should be. I've seen videos of GP horses execute GP movements in one, with acceptable but poorer quality than bitted, and that is a horse who is trained in a bit for dressage - can you imagine how much trickier it would be for a horse that wasn't bitted at all, when a GP horse trained in a bit shows significantly lower quality work in one?

At low levels, in separate classes, if there was the demand, I would turn a blind eye. Unfortunately though I don't think bitless enthusiasts would be content with that, and therefore I think why offer a stepping stone.


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## Meowy Catkin (22 July 2014)

What about sidepulls? I'm not suggesting a german hackamore.

Who decided that pressure on the bars (gums) is OK but not pressure in the nose? Are they right? Quite frankly I think that if you are training the horse to respond to light aids and be submissive to those aids is whether the horse has something in it's mouth or not relevant? I would argue 'no'.

Maybe it's harder to get quality GP moves bitless, but if the trainer/owner accepts that and still wants to train bitless, what's the issue?

I have a horse with nice pases, he won't tolerate a bit but i wish that I could do some low level dressage with him, for fun and to further his training (it's nice to have goals and feedback to how you are progressing which dressage tests provide) without any condescending people 'turning a blind eye' but just simply accepting that bitless is valid.

Grrrr.... stepping stone..... grrrrrr... do you listen to yourself?..... *grumbles*


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## cptrayes (22 July 2014)

Faracat said:



			What about sidepulls? I'm not suggesting a german hackamore.

Who decided that pressure on the bars (gums) is OK but not pressure in the nose? Are they right? Quite frankly I think that if you are training the horse to respond to light aids and be submissive to those aids is whether the horse has something in it's mouth or not relevant? I would argue 'no'.

Maybe it's harder to get quality GP moves bitless, but if the trainer/owner accepts that and still wants to train bitless, what's the issue?

I have a horse with nice pases, he won't tolerate a bit but i wish that I could do some low level dressage with him, for fun and to further his training (it's nice to have goals and feedback to how you are progressing which dressage tests provide) without any condescending people 'turning a blind eye' but just simply accepting that bitless is valid.

Grrrr.... stepping stone..... grrrrrr... do you listen to yourself?..... *grumbles*
		
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Totally with you on this Faracat.  I wouldn't ride bitless unless I had no option, but I fail to see why people are prevented from riding dressage bitless, since it does not seem to give any advantage in terms of scoring.


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## Regandal (22 July 2014)

Is there any research available on bits?   Everyone who uses a bit should read this: http://www.naturalhorseworld.com/Downloads/ToBitorNottoBit.pdf    I don't use a bitted bridle now.


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## khalswitz (22 July 2014)

Faracat said:



			What about sidepulls? I'm not suggesting a german hackamore.

Who decided that pressure on the bars (gums) is OK but not pressure in the nose? Are they right? Quite frankly I think that if you are training the horse to respond to light aids and be submissive to those aids is whether the horse has something in it's mouth or not relevant? I would argue 'no'.

Maybe it's harder to get quality GP moves bitless, but if the trainer/owner accepts that and still wants to train bitless, what's the issue?

I have a horse with nice pases, he won't tolerate a bit but i wish that I could do some low level dressage with him, for fun and to further his training (it's nice to have goals and feedback to how you are progressing which dressage tests provide) without any condescending people 'turning a blind eye' but just simply accepting that bitless is valid.

Grrrr.... stepping stone..... grrrrrr... do you listen to yourself?..... *grumbles*
		
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Firstly, I wasn't suggesting german hackamores either. I was discussing the cross under bridle that my own bitless enthusiast friends say should be allowed. Still pressure on the jaw/nose. I haven't seen a side pull in action so cannot comment, is it strictly reins stitched to a noseband or is there a tightening action? If there is, I see no difference.

I do agree with you in that, yes, the decision as to pressure on the bars of the mouth being ok but not elsewhere has simply been made at some point and stuck to, but I think opening up dressage to bitless and not allowing use of leverage bits/ported mouthpieces/curb chains is a double standard. So if you have to draw a line, (which you do) I think where it is is pretty good, and more fair.

Regarding your comment about 'light aids', a horse going well in the contact is not what I'd call 'light'! Not the same as leaning, but a good contact should be firm as well as elastic, and the light contact favoured so often by bitless riders I have met is not that at all.

Equally, I think there's enough awful riding with the allowed tack at low levels - can you imagine how bitless would be abused by those kinds of riders?

Sorry if you don't like my opinion, it is people like you I do genuinely feel sorry for in that situation, but unfortunately most of the people I've met who want bitless dressage have DECIDED to ride bitless rather than being forced to by horse's preference, so I don't think they should have the rules changed to suit them. One of the central tenets of dressage is submission to the *bit*, and regardless of why or how that came about, it is central to dressage, and if a horse can't do that, then I don't think it should be competing dressage (sorry!). 

We are also remembering here that good schooling and dressage are not the same thing. Your horse can be well schooled and correct in its way of going in any tack you like. But competing dressage not only must have a bit, but it is submission to the bit and not any other kind of pressure that is actively looked for.

Many RCs in my area allow riders to ride bitless if they ask ahead and go HC - if training and seeing scores is all you really worry about, then why not do that? Otherwise it really is wanting a stepping stone to competing fully in dressage bitless.

I have a lot of respect for you, Faracat, and I'm sorry if it offends you (I previously had a horse who was only happy in a cheltenham gag, and I couldn't compete dressage with him either, so I know your pain! He schooled to Medium plus his changes, but no way on earth could I have taken him in a dressage ring), but I would cringe if BD started allowing bitless in dressage.


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## ChesnutsRoasting (22 July 2014)

khalswitz said:



			Well, if crossunders fit alongside a cavesson for a standing martinagle, and horse is happier in it, then I don't see why they shouldn't be allowed (except in dressage - I am afraid I am a purist there regarding bitless!). 

My only other concern (and please tell me if I am wrong) would be the speed of the release of pressure. How quickly does a bitless like a crossunder release the pressure when contact is dropped? Obviously polo is a quick game, and very quick signals are given (hence the shanked bits, very quick responses are required, I always think similarly to how a double bridle allows for greater communication in the dressage ring a shanked bit does for western and polo, in a different way) so a cross under would need to be able to release very quickly?
		
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I only have experience of the Dr Cooks bridle & the crossunders release quickly. What I don't like about the Dr Cooks is the fitting of the noseband - it has to be tight otherwise  it rides up & the cheekpieces go all baggy!


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## pip6 (22 July 2014)

I've posted before, having been at a yard for 5 years that wintered, bred and rehabed polo ponies. Please can someone 'in the sport' explain to me why the owners always culled the colt foals at a few days old, they only wanted the fillies. To me this in itself should be banned.

In my experience, most ponies are chunky pony types, it is only at the highest level you see tb's. You'd be surprised at how coarse a lot of a good clubs ponies are. It does blow their brains though, they only know, slow jog, blat out once a rider is up. It's no surprise when they are suddenly asked for top gear so reguarly in a match. As I said before, our holiday makers were sent naked, if yo saw one not coping with winter she would lend a rug. They were beaten into submission by their foreign grooms, so yes were very quiet when not in use, but were also very head shy.

If you look at my first post you will see I witnessed a pony who had been rehabed as a pet after fracturing its leg and having bone fragments in it being taken when finally sound for arena polo. Then there was the 11hh pony at our yard whos owner was a polo pony owner, had dispute with yo so took pony (who was on successful loan with kid who'd saved her from laminitis) to her polo yard. Pony last seen in tiny area of dirt paddock with grooms taking her out into yard and charging her around after a ball. 

I've been close to the industry for 5 years, so yes do feel qualified to comment on their welfare. I've seen one kind, loving (not fluffy bling) owner who really cared for her mounts. She knew their names and never referred to them as equine motorbikes (see first post). All the rest I'd never sell a horse to. As for an alternative for ex-racers. Like any high end sport they probably are well cared for, but you don't have to drop down far to find major welfare issues.


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## GSLS (22 July 2014)

cptrayes said:



			I saw a picture in the paper yesterday of Prince Harry on a polo pony and it really disturbed me.

The pony had on the following tack:

- side reins, quite short
- cavesson noseband with short standing martingale attached
- drop noseband closing the mouth on a Cheltenham gag bit.

It looked like a turkey trussed up for Christmas 

If polo requires this level of tack to play , is it right? Is there a reason why it  can't be played without strapping  the horse down to within an inch of its life?
		
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They're not side reins, they're runners 

That sounds mild for polo anyway. A chelt gag is an elevating bit and the weakest in polo. 

Having worked in polo there are horses that wear... 

Long shanked Pelham with a curb the tightest it will physically go, raw hide nose band, raw hide drop, over tight cheek pieces, tongue tie, over tight standing, runners off the top hole of the Pelham so they only have a proper rein on the long shank, balance girth as tight as poss so the metal ring rotates and digs in, breast girth and over girth, ill fitting saddle too far forward and an Argie saddlecloth only underneath. 

You have no idea.... 

Argies sew mare's vulvas up so they can be turned out with stallions. Like, what you're describing is so mild. 

Plus they only really wear rowel spurs positioned on the heel / sole of their boot, not near the ankle. 

Also polo ponies aren't allowed to be trotted as it "ruins their play". 

I've groomed for a 6 goaler before and the England captain so I'm pretty clued up. 


No longer work in polo any more as can't deal with the horses being so thin I'm clipping over their ribs and it leaves hair in between. 

Plus polo isn't governed by the FEI it's governed by the HPA. 

The players and patrons don't care about the horse's welfare it's awful

RE: bits I've seen a pony played in a Liverpool driving bit and curb chain no questions asked and that's at tournaments away from home too


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## fburton (22 July 2014)

GSLS said:



			Argies sew mare's vulvas up so they can be turned out with stallions. Like, what you're describing is so mild
		
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WTF?! :frown3: Not commonplace I hope...!


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## Meowy Catkin (22 July 2014)

Sorry to CPT for this tangent on your Polo thread.

K - I would argue that the 'submission to the bit' is not essential to dressage, 'submission to the aids' - yes. When you boil it down, dressage is training your horse to prance about an arena doing set moves and you are judged on your performance. I don't see a bit as essential and I don't see tradition as a good enough reason to disallow bitless classes. If people choose to ride their horses bitless, does that really matter? Why would training horses to prance around an arena be cringeworthy, I don't 'get' it?

You could easily say that you either have a bit OR nose pressure and that you can't have both. You could keep the bitless classes separate and have strict rules about what is and isn't allowed. Why shouldn't BD run this? Why shouldn't they have levels parallel to the bitted ones to progress up? Why is it such a big deal? 

RE light aids - I broke my back as a teenager so have to ride with light hand aids, my back can't 'take' a strong contact and my legs are weak. i only started Dressage with the RDA, so maybe my experience of dressage is unusual, but lightness of aids was very much aimed for. 

PS -I wasn't offended, just taken aback that you aren't more open minded on this issue. I'd never thought that you would be so entrenched in your views.


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## Mariposa (22 July 2014)

pip6 said:



			I've posted before, having been at a yard for 5 years that wintered, bred and rehabed polo ponies. Please can someone 'in the sport' explain to me why the owners always culled the colt foals at a few days old, they only wanted the fillies. To me this in itself should be banned.
.
		
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Sorry, I've bitten my tongue for a few days but seriously? This is turning into a complete joke! Culling colt foals? I've never heard anything of the sort, and yes - I've worked in polo for over 20 years and we ourselves have bred polo ponies. Why on earth would colts be culled? Geldings are just as good on the polo ground as mares! Anyone culling any foals should be reported - this is nothing to do with polo. 



GSLS said:



			Argies sew mare's vulvas up so they can be turned out with stallions. Like, what you're describing is so mild.
		
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Some mares in racing are caslicked (aka stitched) and some in polo - it had nothing to do with being 'turned out with stallions'!  It's to prevent infections, stopping feces from getting into the vulva and causing an infection, or from sucking in air. There is some information on caslicking here http://www.critters360.com/index.php/the-caslicks-procedure-23813/




			Also polo ponies aren't allowed to be trotted as it "ruins their play".
		
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Um...wtf? Why  would it 'ruin their play', what is 'their play' exactly? How do you think we get polo ponies fit? Being such an experienced groom as you claim how on earth did you get ponies fit without trotting them?




			I've groomed for a 6 goaler before and the England captain so I'm pretty clued up.
		
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 If you think polo ponies can't be trotted and they're stitched up to stop them being covered by stallions you clearly weren't a very clued up groom, I've have expected more from the Tomlinsons if you worked for Luke as you say! 




			The players and patrons don't care about the horse's welfare it's awful
		
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Just...I can't even go there.


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## ester (22 July 2014)

I can't see a caslick putting a stallion off much either!!??


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## cobgoblin (22 July 2014)

I don't know what the truth is here.
But now I know I NEVER want to go to a polo match.


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## Mariposa (22 July 2014)

cobgoblin said:



			I don't know what the truth is here.
But now I know I NEVER want to go to a polo match.
		
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Goodness me neither! 

This thread has taught me that we are all fatties who can't ride, have tiny ponies who aren't up to our weight, or ponies who are far too much for us and use 'bondage' to keep them under control, use bute to cover up any lameness, sew up our ponies vulvas because you know...we like to turn out the stallions with the mares for fun ( the stallions that we haven't culled at birth that is) we never trot them ( because where's the fun in trotting?!)...did I miss anything out? It's been a revelation to find out how awful we are!  

I'm heading straight out to the field to apologise to my ponies, and I'm going to take up...endurance? That's a nice sport isn't it?!


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## Hedgewitch13 (22 July 2014)

It's a very ugly 'sport' and not one I would want anything to do with


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## cobgoblin (22 July 2014)

Mariposa said:



			Goodness me neither! 

This thread has taught me that we are all fatties who can't ride, have tiny ponies who aren't up to our weight, or ponies who are far too much for us and use 'bondage' to keep them under control, use bute to cover up any lameness, sew up our ponies vulvas because you know...we like to turn out the stallions with the mares for fun ( the stallions that we haven't culled at birth that is) we never trot them ( because where's the fun in trotting?!)...did I miss anything out? It's been a revelation to find out how awful we are!  

I'm heading straight out to the field to apologise to my ponies, and I'm going to take up...endurance? That's a nice sport isn't it?!
		
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Be careful, I'm not sure endurance has been 'done' yet.


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## Meowy Catkin (22 July 2014)

cobgoblin said:



			Be careful, I'm not sure endurance has been 'done' yet.
		
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It has, after the photo of the skinny horse in France.


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## teabiscuit (22 July 2014)

Mariposa I salute your restraint. *salutes*


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## zigzag (22 July 2014)

I'm waiting for them to start on show horses, I personally feel its a lot worse than polo or any other sport


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## Tiddlypom (22 July 2014)

teabiscuit said:



			Mariposa I salute your restraint. *salutes*
		
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Agree. Polo does nothing for me, but your love for your horses and your pride in their training and care shines through in your posts. You have made a very valuable contribution to this thread.


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## tallyho! (22 July 2014)

You could argue leaving a horse in field doing nothing but swat flies and wear rugs all its life cruel.


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## amandap (22 July 2014)

ester said:



			I can't see a caslick putting a stallion off much either!!??
		
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That was the vision of horror that sprang into my head when I read that!
I actually can't see why they would want or have to to turn stallions out with mares unless they are breeding.


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## teabiscuit (22 July 2014)

Argie bashing if you


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## teabiscuit (22 July 2014)

I'm so sorry,  my phone keeps posting before I've finished. I give up.


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## Absolom (22 July 2014)

Actually these kind of things need some budget to start all this, but without the budget you can't manage all the stuff alone, some people are use some donation stuff to make some money with these welfare's.


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## amandap (22 July 2014)

teabiscuit said:



			I'm so sorry,  my phone keeps posting before I've finished. I give up.
		
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I get your drift.


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## khalswitz (22 July 2014)

Faracat said:



			Sorry to CPT for this tangent on your Polo thread.

K - I would argue that the 'submission to the bit' is not essential to dressage, 'submission to the aids' - yes. When you boil it down, dressage is training your horse to prance about an arena doing set moves and you are judged on your performance. I don't see a bit as essential and I don't see tradition as a good enough reason to disallow bitless classes. If people choose to ride their horses bitless, does that really matter? Why would training horses to prance around an arena be cringeworthy, I don't 'get' it?

You could easily say that you either have a bit OR nose pressure and that you can't have both. You could keep the bitless classes separate and have strict rules about what is and isn't allowed. Why shouldn't BD run this? Why shouldn't they have levels parallel to the bitted ones to progress up? Why is it such a big deal? 

RE light aids - I broke my back as a teenager so have to ride with light hand aids, my back can't 'take' a strong contact and my legs are weak. i only started Dressage with the RDA, so maybe my experience of dressage is unusual, but lightness of aids was very much aimed for. 

PS -I wasn't offended, just taken aback that you aren't more open minded on this issue. I'd never thought that you would be so entrenched in your views. 

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If you're interested in chatting about it, I'd be happy to start another thread so we don't hijack? I am usually fairly open minded, but bitless dressage is something I do feel pretty strongly against, and probably mainly due to the people who have been the proponents of it and their reasoning.


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## Meowy Catkin (22 July 2014)

Sure.  It should be an interesting discussion. Maybe in the comp section so the dressage riders spot it?


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## khalswitz (22 July 2014)

Faracat said:



			Sure.  It should be an interesting discussion. Maybe in the comp section so the dressage riders spot it?
		
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Sounds good. The arguments I've heard before have been from very NH, bitting-is-cruel types and has been very critical of dressage as a whole, so I'd love some actual reasoned discussion about it


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## fburton (23 July 2014)

Hats off to both of you, K & F.


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## littleshetland (23 July 2014)

Interesting thread.......I've nothing really to add to it , other than - some years ago I was asked to collect and bring to my yard a high goal polo pony who was in need of some rest and attention.  I set off  to collect the pony in my old truck with ye olde trailer attached.  The address I was to collect him from was in a very wealthy part of the SW of England.  I arrive at the place - it was somewhere that looked like a member of the royal family might live, palatial and stunning.  I rattled my way down the long sweeping drive, across landscaped lawns, sweeping vistas, towards the stunning stable yard...'wow' I thought 'I bet these horses are going to be amazing....'  how wrong I was - a sorrier bunch of sad old knackerd nags I'd never seen before.  The people that owned these sad and sorry horses obviously had potfuls of money  - the yard itself and the environment these horses lived in was amazing - no expense spared, but the horse themselves looked not too far off of welfare cases.  Funny old world......


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## teapot (23 July 2014)

Interesting tweet from the HPA this morning, wonder if it was off the back of this thread. It says:

"@hpapolo take the welfare of polo ponies very seriously & appreciate being kept in the loop with any concerns you may have. #welfare"


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## ChesnutsRoasting (23 July 2014)

Hedgewitch13 said:



			It's a very ugly 'sport' and not one I would want anything to do with 

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There is no defence for Caslicking. The female genital anatomy is not particularly well designed in mammels. But, dear God - infections, faeces, sucking in air - biggest load of codswallop I've ever heard. Don't stop believin' Mariposa.


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## Honey08 (23 July 2014)

littleshetland said:



			Interesting thread.......I've nothing really to add to it , other than - some years ago I was asked to collect and bring to my yard a high goal polo pony who was in need of some rest and attention.  I set off  to collect the pony in my old truck with ye olde trailer attached.  The address I was to collect him from was in a very wealthy part of the SW of England.  I arrive at the place - it was somewhere that looked like a member of the royal family might live, palatial and stunning.  I rattled my way down the long sweeping drive, across landscaped lawns, sweeping vistas, towards the stunning stable yard...'wow' I thought 'I bet these horses are going to be amazing....'  how wrong I was - a sorrier bunch of sad old knackerd nags I'd never seen before.  The people that owned these sad and sorry horses obviously had potfuls of money  - the yard itself and the environment these horses lived in was amazing - no expense spared, but the horse themselves looked not too far off of welfare cases.  Funny old world......
		
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I had a similar thing with a horse that had been round Badminton then turned out to retire on the owner's Cheshire farm.  It nearly starved to death. The rider persuaded them to loan it to a college, where it was almost on a sling for a week it was so weak.  Yet while it was up there at 4* the owners were always there happily patting away in the winner's area.


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## cptrayes (23 July 2014)

blazingsaddles said:



			There is no defence for Caslicking. The female genital anatomy is not particularly well designed in mammels. But, dear God - infections, faeces, sucking in air - biggest load of codswallop I've ever heard. Don't stop believin' Mariposa.
		
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Some mares are made with a vulva that sits out much further than the anus, or become that way after foaling.  That means that faeces fall directly into the vagina of the mare, causing internal infections that can be life threatening. It is my understanding that is the defence for caslick operations.

I have seen one brood mare that had this done and it looked fully justified to me.


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## Spring Feather (24 July 2014)

blazingsaddles said:



			There is no defence for Caslicking. The female genital anatomy is not particularly well designed in mammels. But, dear God - infections, faeces, sucking in air - biggest load of codswallop I've ever heard. Don't stop believin' Mariposa.
		
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"Codswallop" to very novice or non-horse people perhaps.  Mariposa, you are of course, absolutely correct about why some mares require caslicks.


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## rara007 (24 July 2014)

blazingsaddles said:



			There is no defence for Caslicking. The female genital anatomy is not particularly well designed in mammels. But, dear God - infections, faeces, sucking in air - biggest load of codswallop I've ever heard. Don't stop believin' Mariposa.
		
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Where did you get the idea from? I have quite a biased view with my only real caslicks experiences being through the TBA arranged conferences and events and lectures from various top vets but from a quick online search I can't find anything that contraindicates caslicks?


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## WelshD (24 July 2014)

teapot said:



			Interesting tweet from the HPA this morning, wonder if it was off the back of this thread. It says:

"@hpapolo take the welfare of polo ponies very seriously & appreciate being kept in the loop with any concerns you may have. #welfare"
		
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I do wonder if the people on here talking about poor welfare that they have seen with their own eyes did in fact report it. I believe at least two people have mentioned jobs in the region of 3-5 years, why would they stay if the welfare was that bad and did they report what was going on?

Its all very well throwing up hands and saying 'well nothing will change' but it wont help the horses

FWIW there is a big centre near me whose liveries are mainly polo ponies, they live out most of the time in small herds, look wonderfully healthy and seem perfectly happy when ridden. Its like any sport - a few rotten apples soon makes the rest look bad


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## cptrayes (24 July 2014)

WelshD said:



			Its like any sport - a few rotten apples soon makes the rest look bad
		
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I agree with you completely on the welfare off the pitch. 

But I started this thread because I believe, and have read nothing to change my mind, that it is routine in every game to see ponies pulled up again and again in a way which simply would not be tolerated in any other horse sport that I know. It is part and parcel of the fast and exciting game. I can see why devotees accept it, but it isn't something I would be happy to contribute to by paying to watch it.


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## criso (24 July 2014)

I think in this thread it is important to  differentiate between dodgy practices behind the scenes which no one would condone and I think possibly happen in all horse sports or is there something inherent in the game and the way it is played that causes particular distress.

My concern is still at lower levels people get in to it with no riding  experience and the focus is on winning and playing the game not on riding. While harsher bits, more tack and spurs are not necessarily a problem in the hands of an experienced rider, I do think they are in on a novice.

This is based on visits to  Polo yards where not brilliant players were practising so not even with the adrenaline of  amatch. And yes some of them were larger men on very small ponies who would have been turned away from riding schools with a 13 stone weight limit.


I don't think in happens as much in other equine sports because they are not as exciting and competitive and/or the slower  progression makes them a bit too boring for the type of personality I'm  thinking of.


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## tabithakat64 (24 July 2014)

It's nice to see some more balanced posts finally  
I do see a lot of pulling around/yanking/sawing at the reins in all horse sports I watch, all be it show jumping, eventing or dressage that I would deem unacceptable, my main concern is that this is deemed acceptable by the everyday rider and justified by people who should know better as it's in a competitive environment in the heat of the moment. 
I agree with Criso that I've seen a few larger, inexperienced riders on mounts I considered to be too small but the horses are super fit and the tack well fitting... It's not something I'd choose though.


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## ChesnutsRoasting (24 July 2014)

cptrayes said:



			Some mares are made with a vulva that sits out much further than the anus, or become that way after foaling.  That means that faeces fall directly into the vagina of the mare, causing internal infections that can be life threatening. It is my understanding that is the defence for caslick operations.

I have seen one brood mare that had this done and it looked fully justified to me.
		
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I understand caslicking for prolapse. But to routinely caslick fillies/mares that race/play polo etc to prevent infection/windsucking is wrong if their genitalia is perfectly normal. The vulva is normally self-sealing.


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## ChesnutsRoasting (24 July 2014)

rara007 said:



			Where did you get the idea from? I have quite a biased view with my only real caslicks experiences being through the TBA arranged conferences and events and lectures from various top vets but from a quick online search I can't find anything that contraindicates caslicks?
		
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Sorry, should have been more specific. I disagree with caslicking wh en it becomes routine either in the racing or polo industry. Unless the filly/mare windsucks (vaginally) or there is a physical defect and or prolapse then there is no need to caslick.


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## SO1 (24 July 2014)

There was a photo in the evening standard today of polo ponies in an international match. I know it was only a snap shot in time but neither horses looked very comfortable, both had their ears back, one had its head up as far as it could go despite the restraints of a standing martingale, its mouth was open and it looked either in pain or frightened and trying to evade the situation. It was not a happy photo.

Unfortunately whilst the press continue to publish these photos those of us who are not actively involved in the polo scene will only see this side of the game.

I guess a bit like with racing the patrons of polo tend to be rich men who see horses as assets and a means to an end rather than enjoying spending time with the horses or building up a bond. The social standing and competitive element probably appeals to a certain type of people and it is not really an amateur game. You don't see many people at grassroots RC level racing or playing polo, these are mainly sports for rich men where many may see the horses as just a means to an end.


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## teapot (24 July 2014)

SO1 said:



			There was a photo in the evening standard today of polo ponies in an international match. I know it was only a snap shot in time but neither horses looked very comfortable, both had their ears back, one had its head up as far as it could go despite the restraints of a standing martingale, its mouth was open and it looked either in pain or frightened and trying to evade the situation. It was not a happy photo.

Unfortunately whilst the press continue to publish these photos those of us who are not actively involved in the polo scene will only see this side of the game.

I guess a bit like with racing the patrons of polo tend to be rich men who see horses as assets and a means to an end rather than enjoying spending time with the horses or building up a bond. The social standing and competitive element probably appeals to a certain type of people and it is not really an amateur game. You don't see many people at grassroots RC level racing or playing polo, these are mainly sports for rich men where many may see the horses as just a means to an end.
		
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http://www.standard.co.uk/sport/dan...o-the-polo-9624969.html?origin=internalSearch

That image? I was expecting for worse considering your description if I'm honest...

I took this last week at the GC semis (so 22 goal): https://fbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd....365764_520257270775_6012678252619342975_n.jpg  and this a few weeks ago at Ambersham (5-8 goal if I remember right) https://scontent-b-lhr.xx.fbcdn.net...=bf025514ef7278a72c34d5ba7a4f6ade&oe=544C9F2F The latter is one of my favourite photos I've taken all year to be honest - those ponies had just finished a match!

Don't often see many horse racing photos with the horses' ears forwards...


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## teapot (25 July 2014)

Can't edit but what I meant to say is that I think it's hard to get photos of polo ponies with ears forward mid ride off/fast play just like it's hard to get photos of racehorses mid race with their ears forward too. It doesn't 100% mean they're unhappy 100% of the time...


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## amandap (25 July 2014)

teapot said:



			Can't edit but what I meant to say is that I think it's hard to get photos of polo ponies with ears forward mid ride off/fast play just like it's hard to get photos of racehorses mid race with their ears forward too. It doesn't 100% mean they're unhappy 100% of the time...
		
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Agree or in any discipline. Relying on ears forward as the indicator of 'happyness' is not realistic imo. Horses ears (in my understanding) are possibly used to express emotion but they are mainly used to focus on something, so reflect where that focus is. Ears pinned back is obviously a sign of discontent but other ear positions are not reliable indicators of a horses state without taking other signals such as body tension and most importantly context into account.

ps. The context has to be take into account for pinned ears as well, ,a horse could be communicating to a horse nearby for eg.


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## khalswitz (25 July 2014)

amandap said:



			Agree or in any discipline. Relying on ears forward as the indicator of 'happyness' is not realistic imo. Horses ears (in my understanding) are possibly used to express emotion but they are mainly used to focus on something, so reflect where that focus is. Ears pinned back is obviously a sign of discontent but other ear positions are not reliable indicators of a horses state without taking other signals such as body tension and most importantly context into account.

ps. The context has to be take into account for pinned ears as well, ,a horse could be communicating to a horse nearby for eg.
		
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This. My boy never has his ears forward when schooling - he's paying attention to ME so the ears are on ME. Flat back ears are different, but ears turned back is a focus thing, and I actually like to see it.


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