# Sold horse new owner trouble



## Misha (17 December 2013)

Hello everyone, looking for any opinion on this.... Sold 5 year old gelding 4 weeks ago. The horse was very straight forward to ride and handle, with great jump. The new owner tried the horse in school, over jump and on short hack. Horse had passed 5 stage vetting.  I have received number of messages from owner saying she's having lessons jumping, took him for lesson, galloping ( which I don't like the sound of) etc and he's perfect. On Sunday I received phone call the horse has been rearing with her and she wants to bring him back and have money back. Then I have her trainer on phone for good half hour shouting and accusing me for selling to her client monster of a horse etc. The horse has been saint with me, friends rode him, we had little girl on him in school. Never raised a hair. What should I do?


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## twiggy2 (17 December 2013)

seek legal advice, hope you still have the messages saying how good he was


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## Misha (17 December 2013)

Yes I do ... It's heart breaking the whole situation . I would take him back, but on the other hand I am worried what has happened and end up with broken horse


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## L&M (17 December 2013)

Poor you! I suppose you have 2 options:

- take it back, especially if you think a lot of this horse and try to re sell to a more suitable home

- ignore her as assuming it was a private sale, she has no legal comeback.

Good luck and don't envy your position.


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## Honey08 (17 December 2013)

I would offer to take him back but for less money.  

I don't think they will have done too much damage in that time with a bit of luck, just pushed him too far til he lost it with them.


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## Goldenstar (17 December 2013)

I bought a horse About a month ago .
First week great then it had a major bronc session and got me off damaging my back.
I rang the dealer explained what had happened they offered straight away take the horse back no quibbles I took some time to think about it and we have now aggreed that the horse will stay a couple of months then if I am not happy with him he goes back I get my money back.
Dealers often get a bad press but that's how it ought to be .
I am not a dealer but would not leave a horse that had been mine in a difficult situation .


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## Misha (17 December 2013)

I do that's the think he was good horse. But than I do feel oblige to say to any potential buyer that he has been returned and for what reason. That will put people off and other thing I worry is what have they done


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## Goldenstar (17 December 2013)

Can you be classed as a professional ?


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## Misha (17 December 2013)

Yes, not dealer as such, but I am self employed in the equestrian


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## L&M (17 December 2013)

I wouldn't worry about telling any future buyers he has come back - it is not a question you are likely to be asked, and just say you had a buyer, but things didn't work out. 

Hope the horse is ok.


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## Misha (17 December 2013)

If I was to take him back at reduced price, what price would you guys suggest? Horse was sold for 2800


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## Goldenstar (17 December 2013)

Misha said:



			Yes, not dealer as such, but I am self employed in the equestrian
		
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Then take the horse back no quibble .


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## Misha (17 December 2013)

After 4 weeks? If it was 2 weeks no question. How can I be sure I will not get back broken horse?!


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## twiggy2 (17 December 2013)

Misha said:



			If I was to take him back at reduced price, what price would you guys suggest? Horse was sold for 2800
		
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If you buy him back you give ALL the money back!

otherwise you look like you have mis-sold a horse to buy back and make a profit

I agree with GS if you work in the industry buy him back no quibble it is the only way to keep a good reputation


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## YasandCrystal (17 December 2013)

I would knock some money off. Probably offer them 400-500 less, afterall the horse will need to settle back in, Christmas is upon us and you will hit the January lull. You will probably have him for a good 2 months now so evaluate that in terms of feed/showing/mucking out/riding.
It does depend if you are a dealer and can offer a part ex or exchange.


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## Goldenstar (17 December 2013)

Misha said:



			After 4 weeks? If it was 2 weeks no question. How can I be sure I will not get back broken horse?!
		
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You can't but if you work in the industry and want a good reputation it's what you must do .
It will cost you more if they take you to court with no guarantee you will win.


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## L&M (17 December 2013)

Offer £2000? Bear in mind you will need to pay for his upkeep and get him back to 'saleable' condition again, then advertising costs on top.


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## Misha (17 December 2013)

Don't think anyone would even consider to mis sale horse for profit.... I had a waiting list for this horse. The first person to see him purchased him. I still have the messages from other people wanted to view him. That's why I will need to say the reason for re selling the horse. I think is unfair people say, if one is professional we have to take the horse back. Something obviously has happened for the horse behaving like that ...so I will have to give full refund for probably broken horse?!


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## Tiddlypom (17 December 2013)

Misha said:



			How can I be sure I will not get back broken horse?!
		
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 If by 'broken' you mean injured or lame, if he was sound when he left yours, then that is a fair point. Was he vetted before he left your care? 

Otherwise,  if you value your reputation, you will be wise to take him back even if the buyers are clueless numpties and have razzled him up.


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## twiggy2 (17 December 2013)

Misha said:



			Don't think anyone would even consider to mis sale horse for profit.... I had a waiting list for this horse. The first person to see him purchased him. I still have the messages from other people wanted to view him. That's why I will need to say the reason for re selling the horse. I think is unfair people say, if one is professional we have to take the horse back. Something obviously has happened for the horse behaving like that ...so I will have to give full refund for probably broken horse?!
		
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there are at least 2 dealers near me that sell any horse to any home, will always take horse back for exchange or refund but you never get back your total costs so they make a profit wether the horse is right for the home they sell it to or not.

You will end up with a reputation like that if you don't give a full refund, you don't have to take the horse back but your reputation must be worth more than taking this horse back will cost


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## Puzzled (17 December 2013)

I'd offer them £2000. The horse could have gone back quite a bit in terms of schooling in 4 weeks. You'll have to keep him over Christmas and possibly January. To be fair the the current purchasers you can always say if you sell him immediately you'll give them some more money back.


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## ridefast (17 December 2013)

5 years old is still young, it's possible he is being a young horse questioning his new (and perhaps less competent) owner, and owner has over reacted. /i doubt he's ruined, just may need reminding of his manners and sold on to someone more experienced with young horses


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## Goldenstar (17 December 2013)

Misha said:



			Don't think anyone would even consider to mis sale horse for profit.... I had a waiting list for this horse. The first person to see him purchased him. I still have the messages from other people wanted to view him. That's why I will need to say the reason for re selling the horse. I think is unfair people say, if one is professional we have to take the horse back. Something obviously has happened for the horse behaving like that ...so I will have to give full refund for probably broken horse?!
		
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You may think its not fair but one story like this will follow you for years .
Taking people to court is very easy to do now a days , you need to look at the big picture .


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## Misha (17 December 2013)

He had 5 stage vetting yes. They even accused me for doping the horse. I never knew a dope to work on horse for 4 weeks!! The thing is by broken I don't mean necessary lame. Could be back problem etc. I understand what you mean and that's probably what's going to happen, taking him back. I feel it's unfair tho, I was selling angel of the horse. Even the vet couldn't help to comment how well behaved he was.now I should e d up out of pocket with heaps of problems


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## Goldenstar (17 December 2013)

Misha said:



			He had 5 stage vetting yes. They even accused me for doping the horse. I never knew a dope to work on horse for 4 weeks!! The thing is by broken I don't mean necessary lame. Could be back problem etc. I understand what you mean and that's probably what's going to happen, taking him back. I feel it's unfair tho, I was selling angel of the horse. Even the vet couldn't help to comment how well behaved he was.now I should e d up out of pocket with heaps of problems
		
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That's the buisness  not wishing to be nasty but if you can't take the heat stay out of the kitchen


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## Misha (17 December 2013)

Thank you every body for your input. I will do the right thing by the horse, but still feel it should not be that easy for people to ruin some one reputation on base of they'r own incompetence. I still would like to hear other people's views.


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## Tiddlypom (17 December 2013)

If it's any consolation, the dealer who I bought my cob from, and who also sold the famous HH blogger Hovis, is getting out of dealing after 30+ years as she is fed up of numpties.

She would always take a horse back, but says that that things have become ridiculous now.


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## Goldenstar (17 December 2013)

I am not saying its fair but it's the way it is .
If you need / want to work in the industry you have guard your reputation bad news travels fast and widely .


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## YasandCrystal (17 December 2013)

Misha said:



			Thank you every body for your input. I will do the right thing by the horse, but still feel it should not be that easy for people to ruin some one reputation on base of they'r own incompetence. I still would like to hear other people's views.
		
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Sadly it happens OP - I have heard of several cases and it always makes me wonder to hear people slating dealers - sometimes it is the nasty stupid buyers and not the dealers at fault at all.


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## wallykissmas (17 December 2013)

Could you visit the new owner and give a lesson to see if its the horse or something they are doing ?


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## Misha (17 December 2013)

As I said am not dealer.... I have few to many so they are offered for sale to reduce numbers to make space fr clients horses. Still I think it's not fair comment, try see both sides. Even if I was dealer, sold perfectly well mannered horse to some carrot cruncher... The horse in  time of 4 weeks they had him, could of been sold 10x over. Than they blow his brain out, cos that's what I think has happened, you will hold me responsible?


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## Goldenstar (17 December 2013)

Misha said:



			As I said am not dealer.... I have few to many so they are offered for sale to reduce numbers to make space fr clients horses. Still I think it's not fair comment, try see both sides. Even if I was dealer, sold perfectly well mannered horse to some carrot cruncher... The horse in  time of 4 weeks they had him, could of been sold 10x over. Than they blow his brain out, cos that's what I think has happened, you will hold me responsible?
		
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I don't hold you responsible I don't know you it's irrelevant to me .
But I do know how these things work .


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## Misha (17 December 2013)

I have offered that, she said unfortunately she will not be able to make a bond with the horse now anyway


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## Misha (17 December 2013)

I didn't meant you in person just figure of speech


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## _GG_ (17 December 2013)

It's life and as much as it may seem unfair, the cookie crumbles both ways, this time against you, next time may in your favour. 

Things like this really do have to just be taken on the chin. Take the horse back, get it right if it has been whizzed up at all and sell again. Don't make it into a bigger deal than it has to be or you are wasting your energies on something you can't really change without a hell of a lot more stress. 

Put yourself in their shoes, you buy a horse you think is safe and lovely and off you go only for it to become difficult a month down the line. You probably wouldn't want to be stuck with a horse you weren't happy with either.

As for it being possibly inexperience on their part causing him to try it on or whatever, well, as a seller you have a responsibility to make sure that you match your horse to the right person. I wouldn't sell a young horse to anyone that I didn't feel was completely able to cope with it. 

In terms of your last post...they aren't ruining your reputation...that will remain intact when you sell the horse to a more suitable owner and it is successful. However, any public moaning about the situation or refusal to be pleasant in your dealings will affect your reputation. 

I mean that all in the nicest possible way. Just chalk it down to experience and re-sell the horse when he is ready. 

Oh and I would give a full refund.


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## _GG_ (17 December 2013)

Actually no, I would refund the full amount minus a 5 stage vetting. I would get that done before you take him back just to be sure that you are not being given back a literally broken horse.


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## Polos Mum (17 December 2013)

OP why don't you offer to take the horse back for the full price if they pay for him to be full stage vetted again (your vet), not unreasonable for you to want him back in the physical condition you sold him in if you're giving a full refund so they need to vet him for you to prove his condition is the same. 

It is crazy, if this is really what we've come to now what's to stop me buying a horse at the begining of school holidays, ragging it around for six weeks then sending it back for a full refund because it's been naughty suddenly (or it's just end of hols)


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## Misha (17 December 2013)

Thank you JingleSmells I will do exactly that.


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## Misha (17 December 2013)

ThanksPolo Mum it's just heart breaking.


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## EmmasMummy (17 December 2013)

it is most likely she has overhorsed herself and cannot be bothered to sort it out herself!  I was overhorsed when I got my last one.  I cried a lot, fell off a lot, but I got help and figured it out, and we did battle each other and It did take me a year to trust him and a crazy loanee to wisen him up, but I wasn't after a horse to go out and compete on or anything.


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## siennamum (17 December 2013)

I think if they have buggered the horse up sufficiently that he is now rearing, and wasn't when with you, then you will be obliged to declare this when reselling and you will be stuffed.
I don't think I would offer to buy him back, at that age the problem sounds to be with them, not the horse. I might offer to have horse back to sell on their behalf and with them paying all costs, I would also offer to go and ride horse at their place and see what was what. I think it entirely likely that hey could have screwed up a young horse in a few weeks, and created a problem which could make it hard to sell I don't see why you should take the financial hit.


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## Misha (17 December 2013)

Well that's what I was thinking. The horse never ever since been broken has reared. The trouble am having is that's its lovely horse! I have offered to come to they'r s to ride him.... I even offered to take him back to re school and re sell on they'r behalf at the keep cost only. They don't want to pay anything on top, they want the horse gone


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## Misha (17 December 2013)

And as you said I feel I should tell to any new buyer of this problem full stop


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## Zero00000 (17 December 2013)

I cant see why you should take the horse back personally.
Horse passed a 5* vetting and behaved perfectly for new owner then it starts misbehaving and they want you to take it back, why should you be stuck with a horse that is now misbehaving when it wasn't when you sold it,
If 5* vetting done, bloods should be taken to prove no 'dope' used, I agree with either 5* vetting done by your vet at their expense before buying back or you taking the horse on for selling.


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## Kenzo (17 December 2013)

Any young horse can develop behaviour problems at that age if pushed or just depending on the horse/it's breeding etc it's just part and parcel of growing up, really depends if the buyer was prepared to take on a young horse that at times will test the boundaries.

Given the fact that the horse was tried on more than one occasion, a 5 stage vetting was done and you have evidence that all was going well after the sale, then you have every right to be cautious in taking the horse back, if you are going to save face and do the right thing by the horse and your own reputation, I agree that taking horse back providing it passes another vetting is more than reasonable, I'd also make the effort in going to view the horse in its current home and seeing for your self exactly what the crack is, rather than someone telling you all this on the phone, they may appreciate your concern and feed back, could be with a bit if help they may change their minds if the right help is offered.


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## Misha (17 December 2013)

Exactly, I told them the vet took blood test so before she accuse me of doping the horse, she should have the blood tested. I have already offered taking the horse for re schooling and re sale. They don't want pay anything towards that neither.


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## WelshD (17 December 2013)

I have not read all the answers so sorry of its been said but even if they have declined lessons from you I would say that you cannot entertain a refund without visiting first and seeing if there is an obvious reason for what went wrong. I would ask that their instructor attend. Things are a lot easier face to face and with you asking some frank questions you may get to the bottom of it

Even if you then subsequently refund you may find them on the back foot enough to be thankful and so keeping your reputation intact 

As it stands at the moment you could refund and still find yourself being slagged off


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## RainbowDash (17 December 2013)

Before taking the horse back I would insist on riding the horse and having a full vetting (at their expense).  See the problems the owner is having for yourself before taking it back.  As others have said it may be a young horse trying it on and may be fine once back with you x


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## Tiddlypom (17 December 2013)

The OP is caught between a rock and a hard place. Unfortunately her professional reputation will suffer greatly if she doesn't take the horse back (subject to another vetting).


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## Misha (17 December 2013)

I will probably offer to have the horse back at keep cost for re schooling and re selling. If I am happy the horse is heathy and is just misbehaving issue I will give them they'r money back anyway. I should know after week. If they not happy with that, then by all means slaughter my reputation . I feel like being bullied and black mailed. It's not that easy just to give money back for me. Am not dealer selling one horse after other. There was reason for selling the horse and that was space and finance.


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## yellowdun (17 December 2013)

OP, I think given the advice on this thread it is now decision time for you, as only you know how much you value your reputation, 
how suitable your horse was for the person who bought him, and how much of a numpty the new owner has been..

I agree you should visit and also vet the horse, but I think you need to make a rapid decision for your own peace of mind, and the sake of the horse.  I wonder if he has frightened the new owner and that is why she can't bond with him?  Or maybe, she just has no idea how long it can take a new horse to settle.  Even instructors can be pretty clueless in this respect.


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## Patterdale (17 December 2013)

Holly08 said:



			I would offer to take him back but for less money.  

I don't think they will have done too much damage in that time with a bit of luck, just pushed him too far til he lost it with them.
		
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This. 



Misha said:



			If I was to take him back at reduced price, what price would you guys suggest? Horse was sold for 2800
		
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I'd offer them £1500, taking into account advertising costs, costs of another vetting, keep in the middle of winter and potential decrease in value after they've stuffed it up. Legally they haven't got a leg to stand on so I think you'd be kind to offer to have him back. 

I wouldn't worry about damage to your reputation, and I certainly wouldn't lose money over it. You'd be surprised how many people can spot a numpty


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## Misha (17 December 2013)

They not interested in me visiting the horse I have offered. They want the horse gone. I agree I need to make decision sharp ish


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## Misha (17 December 2013)

Thank you SnowOnSnow I will try meet half way with them for the horses sake. There must be some agreement for both sides to be happy and for the chaps sake


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## Patterdale (17 December 2013)

Just don't allow yourself to be bullied or blackmailed over it


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## Misha (17 December 2013)

Thank you  nice to hear kind words.


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## Goldenstar (17 December 2013)

Are you a BHS member you could use their legal helpline to understand where Everbody stands ?
While it is easier to take a dealer to court it's not the case despite what's often said on here that buyers have no recourse against a private seller .
I think you need to have some advise before you contact the buyer again. Then  you can make a desision based on understanding what may happen next on the other side .


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## EmmasMummy (17 December 2013)

Misha said:



			They not interested in me visiting the horse I have offered. They want the horse gone. I agree I need to make decision sharp ish
		
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If its on a yard and you know where it is, could you just turn up?  Id be very suspicious that they do not want you to come see it.  I would really worry as to what was going to walk out of that trailer (I assume they mean they will bring him back?)


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## Misha (17 December 2013)

Yes they want bring him back. I don't know adress of the yard where the horse is kept


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## Honey08 (17 December 2013)

They are bullying you, don't let them.  You're being very fair, its perfectly fair to want to see what the issues are and to have the horse re-vetted at their cost before you take the horse back.  If I were in your shoes, these would be the terms for the horse to come back (and I would be putting that in writing, perhaps recorded delivery) otherwise they can take you to court (and you can prove that you make a fair offer to take the horse back...).

I can't see how it would damage your reputation really.  You've offered to assess the horse and have it back subject to a  vetting to prove that the horse has not been injured while they had it.  You're not wriggling out of it or being unhelpful...

I highly doubt that they would take you to court over this when you've offered what you have offered.  It would cost them more in livery etc while they waited than they would lose paying for a vetting..  To me, if they won't let you vet the horse or assess it they have something to hide...


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## Honey08 (17 December 2013)

Otherwise say he can be brought back and you will pay 50% of what they paid if they won't allow you to vet him or assess him first...  Their choice.  You vet him and pay £2500 or they dump him back, you take the risk of a broken horse and you pay £1400.


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## Misha (17 December 2013)

Thank you for your input, much appreciated as everyone else's


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## flowerlady (17 December 2013)

Misha said:



			Yes, not dealer as such, but I am self employed in the equestrian
		
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If you sell more than 3 horses a year you are classed as a horse dealer 'apparently' according to Horse & Country.

What do you do as self employed in equestrian?


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## flowerlady (17 December 2013)

Misha said:



			As I said am not dealer.... I have few to many so they are offered for sale to reduce numbers to make space fr clients horses. Still I think it's not fair comment, try see both sides. Even if I was dealer, sold perfectly well mannered horse to some carrot cruncher... The horse in  time of 4 weeks they had him, could of been sold 10x over. Than they blow his brain out, cos that's what I think has happened, you will hold me responsible?
		
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If your not a dealer? then surely 4 weeks is not that long to take the horse back even some bad dealers offer 28 day return.  If they had said after 2 weeks (which you mentioned earlier) you would probably have said they haven't given him long enough.  If the horse was such an Angel then there should be no problem taking him back?  Just one question I would like to ask you did you sell the horse with all his tack?  Go have a look at where he is and see if maybe you can see what may be causing the problem?  Could be bad fitting tack which has made him sore?  But whatever it is for the horses sake if he was an Angel you'd surely get him back a.s.a.p unless of course there was a problem?


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## Honey08 (17 December 2013)

flowerlady said:



			Go have a look at where he is and see if maybe you can see what may be causing the problem?  Could be bad fitting tack which has made him sore?  But whatever it is for the horses sake if he was an Angel you'd surely get him back a.s.a.p unless of course there was a problem?
		
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Bu that's the whole issue, OP hasn't said she won't take it back, the issue is that they won't let her go and see what the issue is, they just want to dump it back asap and get full refund


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## Misha (17 December 2013)

Thank you Holly. Exactly that !!


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## Goldenstar (17 December 2013)

Do you put the food for your horses through your buisness ?


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## maccachic (17 December 2013)

Wow I would not be doing anything without seeing the horse.  I doubt one bad client will ruin your reputation. 

4 weeks is a long time is there any case law on length of time that refunds have been awarded after?


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## Pigeon (18 December 2013)

I agree that you probably will have to take him back, but I agree, DEFINITELY don't do anything without him being vetted first (at their expense)


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## flowerlady (18 December 2013)

OK apologise had only read first 2 pages but didn't you see her ride?  Couldn't you see there was a possible problem?  You need to tell them that you have to be able to see the horse's condition and even speak to the instructor while watching her or even the instructor ride the horse where it is being kept.  Personnally I would want my' Angel' back for his own sake if there was some problem.  I have in the past been on the receiving end of a dealer that lied.  I assure you I got every penny back.  So maybe I'm biased I can also see chinks in their story if they won't let you go and see the horse.  I suppose if your not bothered what happens to the horse (had you not had him long?) Then stick to your guns or if your worried about the horses future then take him back. Oh and yes get him vetted.


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## showingmadfilly (18 December 2013)

Chin up  what ever decisions you make. Just keep smiling and don't let it get you down.


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## Shadow the Reindeer (18 December 2013)

Get the horse back asap before they ruin him any further. Looking at the flip end of the coin, there's every chance they've done too much too soon with a young green horse, and he's just been over phased, and it's got too much, hence tantrum. I mean, what horse doesn't have a wobble in the first few months of being re-homed, however minor?
Op, he may well revert to the perfect horse you know when he comes home to you, just bare in mind, he's going to be more wary the next time he's sold, there are some right idiots out there, who are more than capable of not only over horsing themselves, but blowing the poor horses mind in the process. 
That's not to say, they're not going to try and make you out to be the bad guy in this.. who in their right mind, unless totally honest, is going to admit they're at fault when money is involved?


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## Marydoll (18 December 2013)

JingleSmells said:



			Actually no, I would refund the full amount minus a 5 stage vetting. I would get that done before you take him back just to be sure that you are not being given back a literally broken horse.
		
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This is what I would do to make sure the horse is fine before you take him back.


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## Spring Feather (18 December 2013)

I sell most of my horses on first refusal buyback contracts (with no time limit) so there's no question that I would buy this horse back.  I would collect it myself and I would want to see it and give it a thorough checking over before I loaded it up.  I always refund the full sales price that my buyers have paid me for the horse because I know full well that I won't have any trouble reselling the horses again.  A good reputation is everything in the horse world.  Lose it and you could lose it forever.


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## OrangePepper (18 December 2013)

Even though you are a Private Seller the purchasers of this horse could still take legal action against you which could become very protracted and you could end up with a lot of heartache, waste a lot of time and it could cost you a lot in legal fees.
In your interest and that of the horse the best option is for you to have the horse checked out by a vet and if it is o.k. refund them the full amount of money.
Make sure that the horse is insured to the full value when it is travelled back to you.


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## lastchancer (18 December 2013)

Get it vetted and if it's ok I'd take it back and refund - if your experienced you should be able to sort him out in a couple of months if they've blown his brains. 
So annoying but it'll most likely be a better solution to a ruined reputation and possible lawsuit. So very many divvys involved with horses,  I do sympathize.


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## cptrayes (18 December 2013)

Misha said:



			As I said am not dealer.... I have few to many so they are offered for sale to reduce numbers to make space fr clients horses. Still I think it's not fair comment, try see both sides. Even if I was dealer, sold perfectly well mannered horse to some carrot cruncher... The horse in  time of 4 weeks they had him, could of been sold 10x over. Than they blow his brain out, cos that's what I think has happened, you will hold me responsible?
		
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Have you sold three within twelve months?

That was the definition of dealer in my friend's case which went to the high court.

Personally, the time this happened to me I told them to bring the horse straight back and had their money waiting for them. I only just managed to stop myself from telling them what I thought of them when they unloaded him.

That horse was sold for the same amount as yours, which was worth a lot more in 1992. 

I didn't take back one where the buyer told me they had a navicular diagnosis six weeks after a five star vetting, though!!


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## Kaylum (18 December 2013)

I would want to see the horse at the yard but I doubt that would resolve anything. They had it vetted and it passed. The fact that they now cannot handle the horse for whatever reason yes is their problem and an instructor screaming down the phone solves nothing anyone can call themselves an instructor/trainer maybe next time they will bring their screaming instructor with them to view it. When they are in their own environment who knows who much turnout the horse is getting, what food it's getting, how they tack up and how they ride, how much work it's getting too much, too little etc etc. Get the horse back don't give them a penny and say when he is sold you will pay them minus livery.


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## lannerch (18 December 2013)

I don't see why you should take the horse back, with the evidence you have no court would find against you! 
Let the buyer beware. 

Reputation if solid cannot be lost by one persons bad mouth, chances are most will see through this.

I would stick to your offer of re schooling and selling the horse for them , don't be bullied it's a good offer they can take it or leave it .


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## Amymay (18 December 2013)

Misha said:



			Yes I do ... It's heart breaking the whole situation . I would take him back, but on the other hand I am worried what has happened and end up with broken horse
		
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He's not broken.  And I would absolutely take him back.


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## Exploding Chestnuts (18 December 2013)

JingleSmells said:



			Actually no, I would refund the full amount minus a 5 stage vetting. I would get that done before you take him back just to be sure that you are not being given back a literally broken horse.
		
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That is a good idea, I cannot blame OP for selling a horse even to a novice rider, who apparently has a trainer ......... a trainer who gets on the phone and makes a lot a trouble, I cannot see any decent trainer doing this, and if the horse was going nicely at first, the trainer would have seen it was OK, I think this is some sort of red herring. 
Yes I would get it 5 stage vetted and then you have a bonus if you will, some people would not want such a certificate, but at least you know it is OK. however the vet cert normally belongs to the person who pays for it and arranges it.
I would also go and see it, find out what is going on. I would want the horse back at her expense, any reasonable person would explain horse was too much for them and ASK you to take it back and be flexible with regard to money, they risk losing it all, as they now have a horse which is so bad it is not saleable [according to them]


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## buddy's mummy (18 December 2013)

tell her tough luck & tell her to send horse to me!! lol!!


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## Dry Rot (18 December 2013)

If I read this correctly, the purchaser is claiming that the horse has an inherent fault, i.e. it has a bad nature or wasn't broken correctly or something on those lines. 

Would it be possible to put the horse with a mutually acceptable professional for assessment and for both parties to agree to accept that decision? Then you have something to negotiate on.

I've sold working gundogs for years and it is even worse in the gundog world as everybody thinks they can work a trained dog. I always made it clear that any warranty extended as far as the gate but I doubt that would work today.


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## stormox (18 December 2013)

I would offer to go and see the horse misbehaving with the new owner. Then if you think its them causing the problem you could offer advice. If they don't go along with you going to see what the horse is actually doing to cause the problem theyr just trying it on with you......  I certainly wouldn't take the horse back until I was sure they hadn't permanenttly damaged it, either mentally or physically.....


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## OFG (18 December 2013)

4 weeks is nothing really in terms of letting a horse settle into a new home. 

In feb this year took on a new horse, a 4 year old (advertised as 6!). Tried him at schooling yard and he was gentleman and hacked out perfectly. Brought him home and for the first 6 weeks he was the devil incarnate. Each time I ventured out on the roads it really was a case of would we come back in one piece? Rearing, spinning, bucking, kicking out; you name it he did it. Now I've been riding for 30 years and it seriously made me think if I had made a major poor judgement call on him.  Perservered with him and he got better.  

Young horse = pushing boundaries / settling in


At end of day OP you need to do what you feel is right but personally I don't think buyers given this horse enough time to settle in and have probably overfaced him too quickly.


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## Exploding Chestnuts (18 December 2013)

It is the attitude and the actions of the purchaser that is bad behaviour, I don't think they want the horse, that is the end of it as far as they are concerned, yes someone with experience would know how to cope with the situation, but the purchaser does not have experience, and like so many before is "demanding her rights" its a joke, pity a good horse is stuck in the middle.
The longer it goes on the more entrenched will horse bad behaviour become the norm, it is a downward spiral with these people.
I know I had a difficulty persuading people NOT to buy my horse [butter - melts - in - mouth syndrome], but when one came along that could manage him as long as she got support for first few weeks, her instructor [who did not come to see her ride] told her  not to buy him GRRRRRRRRRRRR.


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## stormox (18 December 2013)

Its like having a horse on a months trial! not on IMHO. Not on. You could get back a horse nothing like the one that went away. The instructor probably wants to sell her one of her own!!!!!


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## crabbymare (18 December 2013)

Have they got a new saddle as if they have one that is pinching that could be causing the problem and is easily rectified


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## Hippona (18 December 2013)

Im always amazed that when someone comes on here saying theyre having difficulties with a new horse.....within the first few posts someone always without fail advises sending the horse back to its previous owner.

I think some people should stick to bicycles....horses will play up, test out a new owner, not settle etc.....

People don't seem to want to work through any issues any more.
Feel for you OP. Feels for the horse too TBH. Much as it doesnt seem fair it would probably be best for the horse if you could have him back.


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## _GG_ (18 December 2013)

crabbymare said:



			Have they got a new saddle as if they have one that is pinching that could be causing the problem and is easily rectified
		
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And some. For all we know they could have him on barley rings and rolled oats!!


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## Tiddlypom (18 December 2013)

Hippona said:



			Im always amazed that when someone comes on here saying theyre having difficulties with a new horse.....within the first few posts someone always without fail advises sending the horse back to its previous owner.

I think some people should stick to bicycles....horses will play up, test out a new owner, not settle etc.....

People don't seem to want to work through any issues any more.
		
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^^^ Agree.

In a previous post, I mentioned a respected dealer who is giving up partly because of this after over 30 years in the trade. She used to reckon on just one horse a year being returned as things didn't work out. Nowadays people want a refund after the slightest of hiccups.


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## ester (18 December 2013)

I think it would be mad to take it back if they won't even let you see it beforehand!


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## EmmasMummy (18 December 2013)

JingleSmells said:



			And some. For all we know they could have him on barley rings and rolled oats!!
		
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I got a 20 yr old super quiet made on laon when I was 13. Gave her energy feed for some oomph and well......she tipped a gate down and went loopy galloping about- was like giving a 5yr old red bull!


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## Tabbi (18 December 2013)

Holly08 said:



			I would offer to take him back but for less money.  

I don't think they will have done too much damage in that time with a bit of luck, just pushed him too far til he lost it with them.
		
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I Agree with this! at least if you can get him back you know he is in good hands!


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## paddy555 (18 December 2013)

I don't know what you should do. However is there another scenario. The buyer seemed genuine, you saw her ride and handle the horse so presumably she wasn't a complete numpty. Everything was OK to start with and she sent you updates. That does sound possibly genuine. Then the horse flipped, reared, obviously frightened her, may have had her off and turned into a complete monster. Perhaps he did. All the instructor sees now is an utter monster. 
There is one thing that I have seen happen that turns a genuine horse into a monster and that is ulcers. I have had one who has got very bad at this time of the year. I have had another that really did stand on his hind legs and go for people. It is not the most obvious thing people look for. No doubt with your experience you would but possibly the buyer has a lot less experience and cannot tell the difference between pain and bad behaviour. 
It may not be her fault to a degree. The horse may have been very happy in your "gut frendly" environment. Coped with his routine, no problems. Possibly the move, the travelling, the strange environment, possibly the feeding (maybe you were hi fibre and she is more grain based who knows) everything that has happened has caused an ulcer problem. Maybe in fact no one is really to blame. The horse in the meantime is in a lot of pain and that is why he has turned into a monster not through poor riding or bad handling. Just an idea as to why. Some horses seem to cope with any move, any amount of stress with no problems and then the quietest, most friendly calm individuals cannot manage it. I know as I bought one who was a bit like the one you described. Very genuine and once I resolved his pain that caused his unpleasant behaviour he was back to being a saint. In the meantime he had no choice for his poor behaviour. He was in pain!.


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## pip6 (18 December 2013)

Not sure of answer, but you said you could sell him 10 x over. I'd insist on viewing & vetting horse before return, & a base my refund price on what I found (otherwise making decision with only other party's opinion), which may be the full sale price. Take him back & sell him to a more suitable home if you think anything of him, something is making him unhappy.


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## Exploding Chestnuts (18 December 2013)

pip6 said:



			Not sure of answer, but you said you could sell him 10 x over. I'd insist on viewing & vetting horse before return, & a base my refund price on what I found (otherwise making decision with only other party's opinion), which may be the full sale price. Take him back & sell him to a more suitable home if you think anything of him, something is making him unhappy.
		
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This is the problem,  OP seems reasonable,  owner wants OP to take horse back and refund with no viewing


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## Marydoll (18 December 2013)

amymay said:



			He's not broken.  And I would absolutely take him back.
		
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How do you know the horse isnt broken ? A lot of damage both physically and mentally can be done to a horse in 4 weeks that might take a fair bit of time and possibly money to sort out.


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## hayinamanger (18 December 2013)

OP, how can you possibly agree to accept the horse back without even seeing him?  The owners should allow you to see the horse before you agree to anything.


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## ihatework (18 December 2013)

In your shoes, I would simply inform the new owners that you are not willing to enter into any further discussion about the horse until they have made him available for you to view and assess. You simply canot make an informed decision about how to proceed until you can assess his living conditions, current stable management, tack fitting, soundness and behaviour under saddle.


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## Vodkagirly (18 December 2013)

ihatework said:



			In your shoes, I would simply inform the new owners that you are not willing to enter into any further discussion about the horse until they have made him available for you to view and assess. You simply canot make an informed decision about how to proceed until you can assess his living conditions, current stable management, tack fitting, soundness and behaviour under saddle.
		
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This, if they won't agree to this, they have something to hide.


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## Perfect_Pirouette (18 December 2013)

Late to this thread so not read all the replies.

Honestly, I would state that I wanted to go over and assess the horse both on the ground and ridden and have a 5 stage vetting done and if they won't let you do that then say fine, you'll have the horse back for £1800- also minus the cost of a five stage vetting! OR, will sell it for them on their behalf.

Honestly, everyone saying 'pay up and buy back or your reputation will be in tatters.' are I think being far too hasty. IF you sold a perfectly safe horse to them, that passed a 5 stage vetting and was hoof perfect when they tried him out and have evidence of this and also evidence of offering to go over and help them out with him/assess him then there's no way I'd be so quick to take him back. 

The horse shouldn't suffer I know, but for goodness sake that's life, the horse is an animal not a robot and they have been perfectly happy with him up until now. 

I certainly wouldn't just be letting them drop him off and handing over their £2800 that's for sure!


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## SusieT (18 December 2013)

tbh if she refuses to let you go teach her/ride the horse to see what it's doing I would be saying no thank you-it could have had an accident while away etc. and why won't she try with it? You can't buy a 5yr old and throw the towel in without trying. Why should you, assuming you sold it and know in your heart of hearts it showed no tendancies this way. I would also require it to be 5 stage vetted by them before returning as you sold in goodf aith. do you buy and see or just involved in the horsey world?


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## Goldenstar (18 December 2013)

ihatework said:



			In your shoes, I would simply inform the new owners that you are not willing to enter into any further discussion about the horse until they have made him available for you to view and assess. You simply canot make an informed decision about how to proceed until you can assess his living conditions, current stable management, tack fitting, soundness and behaviour under saddle.
		
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OP I think it's fair that they agree to this and I would push hard for this having first taken legal advice if you walk away and refuse to take the horse back you must be clear in your mind what you could be getting in to .
It could cost you far more than the horses value .


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## JadeyB (18 December 2013)

what a horrible situation - I agree with the people saying to insist on seeing and vetting the horse (at the new owners expense) before taking him back.  Sadly it seems people just think horses are disposable these days if they aren't perfect.

I watched a friend of mine try to sell on a few nice horses and it does seem that some buyers are very quick to try to hand back a horse if it puts a foot wrong or doesn't immeadiately meet expectations.  You sound like a decent and reasonable person, don't get bullied.  

Hopefully there will be a happy ending for you and your horse too.  All the best.


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## Nettle123 (18 December 2013)

This is all very unfair for the OP. What is to stop these people bad mouthing her even after she has taken  the horse back. Nothing like the horse world for unpleasant and unfounded rumours.

You would not even be able to receive a refund from a shop without them checking said item was in good condition and not broken.


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## Amymay (18 December 2013)

ihatework said:



			In your shoes, I would simply inform the new owners that you are not willing to enter into any further discussion about the horse until they have made him available for you to view and assess. You simply canot make an informed decision about how to proceed until you can assess his living conditions, current stable management, tack fitting, soundness and behaviour under saddle.
		
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Brilliant advice, as ever.


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## onemoretime (18 December 2013)

Zero00000 said:



			I cant see why you should take the horse back personally.
Horse passed a 5* vetting and behaved perfectly for new owner then it starts misbehaving and they want you to take it back, why should you be stuck with a horse that is now misbehaving when it wasn't when you sold it,
If 5* vetting done, bloods should be taken to prove no 'dope' used, I agree with either 5* vetting done by your vet at their expense before buying back or you taking the horse on for selling.
		
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  Blood only run at purchasers request and expense if problems occur and drugging is suspected.  There are drugs out there that can last up to 4 weeks Reserpine is one of them.  Im not suggesting that OP has done this though but it has been known.


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## Mrs. Jingle (18 December 2013)

Quote Originally Posted by ihatework 
In your shoes, I would simply inform the new owners that you are not willing to enter into any further discussion about the horse until they have made him available for you to view and assess. You simply canot make an informed decision about how to proceed until you can assess his living conditions, current stable management, tack fitting, soundness and behaviour under saddle.



amymay said:



			Brilliant advice, as ever.
		
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Really? But just this morning you stated categorically that the horse isn't broken and to just take him back? : Your words were:
"He's not broken. And I would absolutely take him back."

Very confused, what is your opinion, why has it changed so drastically since this morning?:/


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## Amymay (18 December 2013)

MrsJingle said:



			Really? But just this morning you stated categorically that the horse isn't broken and to just take him back? : Your words were:
"He's not broken. And I would absolutely take him back."

Very confused, what is your opinion, why has it changed so drastically since this morning?:/
		
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My opinion is unchanged.  

However, Ihatework will always trump me in the advice steaks - and if there were any question about whose advice someone should take it would be theirs over mine any day.


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## Zero00000 (18 December 2013)

Any update OP?


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## oldie48 (18 December 2013)

I think these people are behaving appallingly. They've bought a 5 year old, even the sweetest 5 year old can rear or buck if mishandled (they are capable of doing either even when well handled, at 5 they are babies and babies have tantrums)  4 weeks is no time in terms of settling in, i've had mature horses that have been wonderful for the first few weeks then tested the boundaries, I'd expect a young horse to take some time to settle. If they won't let you see the horse, there's nothing you can or should do and frankly I'd tell them you don't have the money sitting in the bank even if you wanted to buy the horse back. As long as you feel you have been honest and straight with them, you have nothing to fear. They tried the horse several times, had it properly vetted and were happy with the horse for the first 4 weeks. Unless you sold it with an option to buy it back if it proved unsuitable, I don't think they have a leg to stand on. However, if you feel concerned for the horse's future well being, then offering to take it back to sell on their behalf but charging schooling livery costs etc, would be a kind and generous offer.


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## AnyChance (18 December 2013)

xxx


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## AnyChance (18 December 2013)

EmmasMummy said:



			it is most likely she has overhorsed herself and cannot be bothered to sort it out herself!  I was overhorsed when I got my last one.  I cried a lot, fell off a lot, but I got help and figured it out, and we did battle each other and It did take me a year to trust him and a crazy loanee to wisen him up, but I wasn't after a horse to go out and compete on or anything.
		
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This is exactly what happened with my horse, I bought one that was young and it would buck when it got excited especially with other horses and I fell off alot I had to learn how to sit to it, and eventually how to redirect the energy before it was expelled upwards! I was in tears at one point thinking I would have to sell him after a year or so it didn't worry me as much and we went on to do all sorts so it was all well worth it! I had him until he was PTS from colic at 21


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## MagicMelon (18 December 2013)

Offer to take it back to sell for her?  Don't think I could leave a horse in a home where it wasn't happy personally. Its such a silly situation though, too many people seem buy young/green horses expecting them to always be foot perfect...


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## soulfull (18 December 2013)

JingleSmells said:



			Actually no, I would refund the full amount minus a 5 stage vetting. I would get that done before you take him back just to be sure that you are not being given back a literally broken horse.
		
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This^^^. And would have the vetting done at their yard. That way there is nothing hidden!


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## Misha (19 December 2013)

Thank you everybody for your comments, the chap is now back home. I don't know as yet what's the problem, but am sure I will get him back to well behave chap he used to be. I have almost forgotten just how gorgeous he is.


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## Spanny (19 December 2013)

I didn't post before, but I wanted to say I'm so glad to hear he's back home OP. The whole thing sounds like a horribly unfair situation that neither you nor the horse deserved. I hope there's not too much wrong and he soon finds a happy home with people who deserve him.


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## Adopter (19 December 2013)

Misha said:



			Thank you everybody for your comments, the chap is now back home. I don't know as yet what's the problem, but am sure I will get him back to well behave chap he used to be. I have almost forgotten just how gorgeous he is.
		
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Do let us know when you have had him back a few days how he is, hope you can sort without too much difficulty.


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## TED2010 (19 December 2013)

paddy555 said:



			I don't know what you should do. However is there another scenario. The buyer seemed genuine, you saw her ride and handle the horse so presumably she wasn't a complete numpty. Everything was OK to start with and she sent you updates. That does sound possibly genuine. Then the horse flipped, reared, obviously frightened her, may have had her off and turned into a complete monster. Perhaps he did. All the instructor sees now is an utter monster. 
There is one thing that I have seen happen that turns a genuine horse into a monster and that is ulcers. I have had one who has got very bad at this time of the year. I have had another that really did stand on his hind legs and go for people. It is not the most obvious thing people look for. No doubt with your experience you would but possibly the buyer has a lot less experience and cannot tell the difference between pain and bad behaviour. 
It may not be her fault to a degree. The horse may have been very happy in your "gut frendly" environment. Coped with his routine, no problems. Possibly the move, the travelling, the strange environment, possibly the feeding (maybe you were hi fibre and she is more grain based who knows) everything that has happened has caused an ulcer problem. Maybe in fact no one is really to blame. The horse in the meantime is in a lot of pain and that is why he has turned into a monster not through poor riding or bad handling. Just an idea as to why. Some horses seem to cope with any move, any amount of stress with no problems and then the quietest, most friendly calm individuals cannot manage it. I know as I bought one who was a bit like the one you described. Very genuine and once I resolved his pain that caused his unpleasant behaviour he was back to being a saint. In the meantime he had no choice for his poor behaviour. He was in pain!.
		
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Good point - I believe horses can develop ulcers quite quickly when stressed and put into a different environment. When I bought my My 5 year old which was home bred and had never been off the farm he was born on, he developed grade 4 ulcers despite having lots of turnout, company, high fibre, low starch diet and ad lib Haylage when stabled and a relaxed environment. He hadn't been touched since he was 3 though! He turned into a complete monster and we are still trying to get over it now. Probably isn't that in this case but if they changed his diet and management if is a possible cause to consider ..... unless he has turned into an angel again now he is home, in which case they were just numptys!


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## Misha (19 December 2013)

I will let everyone know how we get on, he's tacked up in bed and looks happy. I just come back from late night check. Fingers cross it's nothing serious


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## Goldenstar (19 December 2013)

I hope it goes well for you and for him.


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## Templebar (19 December 2013)

Im a bit late but im glad to hear you have him back safe. Im sure you will soon have him right and ready to go once again, a good horse will always try to be a good horse for a good rider but even the best cannot help themselves when in a bad situation. Think like ourselves even the best of us cannot always keep out tempers, does not mean there is anything truly wrong with us, just means we were pushed at that moment.

To those who think that not taking him back was an option i would like you to consider what your answers might have been had the new owners been the ones posting here saying they had bought a five year old from a dealer that had reared with no previous indications, i am better quite strongly that over half of you would have said send it straight back.


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## Misha (19 December 2013)

I still think tho, that dealers are always the first one to be blamed. I do think not taking horse back after 4 weeks should be option. But anyway I don't know what's happened, the owner was really upset. I guess sometime even good horse in different environment can start misbehaving and the owner wasn't quick enough to deal with it. I have once had horse with me on re schooling livery, the lady stated that the horse keep spinning with her on hack and on number of occasion reared and buck when she hacked him out. I had the horse here 6 weeks, hacking on his own, company, hunting, jumping etc and never ever he put foot wrong. I almost felt like cheating her, when he went back, because I didn't sort out any issue as here wasn't any. I know the horse is for sale now, the lady never complained to me after, just asked few question as to what bit I had him in etc. so not sure if he stayed good when back at hers. So only time will tell


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## benson21 (20 December 2013)

So glad he is back home with someone who knows him.  Did she allow you to see him before you took him back, as I know its been said she wasnt going to let you?


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## _GG_ (20 December 2013)

I'm glad you have him back...how is he this morning OP?


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## Orangehorse (20 December 2013)

Hope this is a happy ending for you.  I know how you feel as I have been friends with a dealing family for years, and had several horses off them.  Quite often they have been asked to help with a problem horse, and they have had no problem at all and can't think why they were needed.


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## Mariposa (20 December 2013)

So pleased he is back home - and I do feel sorry for you for going through all this. I'm constantly amazed at how disposable some people seem to think horses are, and if they're not perfect they want to send them back. I really hope he is ok, and settles back into the horse you knew, and finds the right home next time.


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## EmmasMummy (20 December 2013)

Definately gone are the days when you bought a horse then learnt to ride it! Folk expect them to be ready to go push button rides.


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## Misha (20 December 2013)

I haven't had chance to see the horse before hand. They have turned up at my yard with the horse in the trailer unannounced. I have taken the horse cos by that point my heart was broken and I shouldn't. The horse is very lame behind and looks awful. I rung the owner and got loads of abuse on phone and that he said we won and put the phone down so now am left with broken horse.


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## Gingerwitch (20 December 2013)

Misha said:



			I haven't had chance to see the horse before hand. They have turned up at my yard with the horse in the trailer unannounced. I have taken the horse cos by that point my heart was broken and I shouldn't. The horse is very lame behind and looks awful. I rung the owner and got loads of abuse on phone and that he said we won and put the phone down so now am left with broken horse.
		
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Have you paid for him? or have they sent him back for nothing ??


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## Misha (20 December 2013)

They turned up in dark, it was raining heavy and the horse was trashing in trailer. We was just about to have tournament with loads of people about. So I put the horse in stable with food and rug. Looked at him today morning and that's what I found out


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## Misha (20 December 2013)

Yes they had full refund


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## Arizahn (20 December 2013)

Misha said:



			I haven't had chance to see the horse before hand. They have turned up at my yard with the horse in the trailer unannounced. I have taken the horse cos by that point my heart was broken and I shouldn't. The horse is very lame behind and looks awful. I rung the owner and got loads of abuse on phone and that he said we won and put the phone down so now am left with broken horse.
		
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Poor chap  Huge get well soon vibes to him, OP.


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## honetpot (20 December 2013)

I bet you feel sick to the stomach. If you can face it I would get a full vetting, a) so you have proof of its condition, b) so if you decide to go to the small claims court for any loses incurred you will have some evidence, although I am sure the money is not your first concern. Some people at just ........


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## Gingerwitch (20 December 2013)

Poor you and poor pony - I really really hope it is nothing serious


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## Tiddlypom (20 December 2013)

Hindsight is wonderful but I so wish that you had delayed giving the refund until a vet had checked him over on your behalf.

I hope that the lameness is only temporary. So sorry for you OP.


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## tiggs (20 December 2013)

I hope you haven't refunded them. Poor horse at least he is back  with someone who cares


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## Exploding Chestnuts (20 December 2013)

Absolute nightmare


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## CBAnglo (20 December 2013)

Misha said:



			They turned up in dark, it was raining heavy and the horse was trashing in trailer. We was just about to have tournament with loads of people about. So I put the horse in stable with food and rug. Looked at him today morning and that's what I found out
		
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Did you pay by cash or cheque?

sounds like they hammered him about, had free use of the horse for a month and dumped back with you.

Out of interest, have you checked up on them?  Google is amazing.  And did they give you back the passport etc (did they send off for change of ownership etc)?


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## Amymay (20 December 2013)

I'm assuming the vet was up today to look at the horse. What did they say??


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## Adopter (20 December 2013)

So sorry for you an awful experience, poor horse, do hope it is not as bad as you fear, do get the vet as advised above as soon as you can.


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## Misha (20 December 2013)

Unfortunately yes they got full refund, I will seek legal advice  to see where I stand.


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## Misha (20 December 2013)

Vet is coming Monday or Tuesday they will confirm so fingers cross


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## Misha (20 December 2013)

Bank transfer, have passport and no they haven't send off for ownership


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## Amymay (20 December 2013)

Ah. Would have been good to have had them today really.


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## Arizahn (20 December 2013)

Misha said:



			Vet is coming Monday or Tuesday they will confirm so fingers cross
		
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That is a long time to wait! Why not today or tomorrow?


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## Misha (20 December 2013)

I tried they were busy with surgery and less emergency they couldn't squeeze me in


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## Arizahn (20 December 2013)

Misha said:



			I tried they were busy with surgery and less emergency they couldn't squeeze me in 

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Better tell them exactly what happened! How they do not see this as an emergency is beyond me - horse has been hammered about for a month, just returned clearly distressed in trailer, and now is in obvious pain and lame/unsound behind  

Is there another vet you can try? Poor animal, he does not deserve this


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## CBAnglo (20 December 2013)

Misha said:



			Bank transfer, have passport and no they haven't send off for ownership
		
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Interesting; most people would have done that within 4 weeks of buying the horse.

I would have had the vet come up first thing today TBH to do a full stage 5 vetting as if there is something wrong with him, they could always argue that it was done in your care over the 4-5 days you have had him before the vet comes.  Bit more difficult to argue that if he was returned last night then vetted first thing this morning.


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## Adopter (20 December 2013)

Can you take a video and or photos this weekend to help you have an accurate record of the condition he has been returned in.  Make sure you have date on the screen or on digital info.

Hopefully you have some pictures of him before he was sold, and as others have said keep the messages, they sent you.

If you take legal advice do use sdpeciaslist equine firm.


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## Misha (20 December 2013)

They are the best equine vets here hence why so busy. I did try another very good equine vet he's in Ireland at the moment. I am not very happy with vets who do small animals as well as horses. I think I need proper equine vet


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## Misha (20 December 2013)

They tried that already, they said maybe he done something in the trailer or in stable over night. They had been swearing and shouting on the phone.


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## Misha (20 December 2013)

Thank you will do


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## Marydoll (20 December 2013)

They sound like nasty barstewards, im glad youve got him back, i hope he does well and that karma takes a chunk out of their ass


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## CBAnglo (20 December 2013)

Misha said:



			They tried that already, they said maybe he done something in the trailer or in stable over night. They had been swearing and shouting on the phone.
		
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I think that there is something very suspicious about this whole thing.   The fact that they did not register change in ownership for 4 weeks is suspicious, as well as conveniently dropping him off when you have a clinic. They knew they could blackmail you with your reputation; this is the cost of doing business.

I would keep him box rested/small pen turnout until the vet arrives/take him to the vet.  He could have done something like a tendon being bashed about and then started rearing in protest.  I hope that he comes sound, what an awful situation for a youngster especially as it sounds as though you have been so careful with him.  Perhaps in future you should try to get some more info on a buyer / enter in a sale contract which says that if they wish to return the horse within the first 4 weeks they agree that you will deduct the pirce of a 5 stage vetting up to the amount of £x and deduct £100 per week up to £400 from the refund (to cover the "use" of the horse in that time) or take the horse back to sell on as agent (and set out what commission (if any)/keep fees will apply).  Then everyone knows where they stand.  

Such a shame - viewer no. 2 could have been a lovely person who would have loved the horse.


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## Renvers (20 December 2013)

Glad he is back home with you, they sound like a nightmare I hope you are successful in getting some justice for the way both you and the horse have been treated. 

I am amazed an instructor has behaved in this manner, as you say the horse world is small, and his/her reputation is also on the line if you find the horse has been pushed too far too soon and tell others of your experience.

I am sure you will get him right and in a good home soon.


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## budley95 (20 December 2013)

Sorry I'm really confused, is this the horse you brought that after a 5 stage vetting came back to your yard and went lame and you didn't think it should have gone lame with "light use" after 4 weeks, or a completely different horse (thread in veterinary and hoof care)? You thought that horse may have been doped, and really the buyer thought the same thing with your sold horse. I'm sorry the horse is lame and I hope you get it sorted. I know you only want to use an equine vet but just for the sake of a vetting so as you have some legal comeback for vet costs etc I'd be getting horse seen to asap. Seems like a real run of bad luck OP.


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## Exploding Chestnuts (20 December 2013)

CBAnglo said:



			I think that there is something very suspicious about this whole thing.   The fact that they did not register change in ownership for 4 weeks is suspicious, as well as conveniently dropping him off when you have a clinic. They knew they could blackmail you with your reputation; this is the cost of doing business.
.
		
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I think we can pretty much say the people have wrecked the horse and are completely horrific, no matter how many "references" you get, they can all be useless unless it is  someone you know personally.
OP is not a dealer as such, just brings a few on, and I expect she won't be doing that again in a hurry.
I think that the BHS legal line will advise, but she took the horse back and they have the money........ its not good..................
I would be interested to know, I got my horse back in poor condition, and I would love to get my expenses and the deposit back if only to make it clear that people can't just do what they like and disregard legal agreements at a whim.


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## Tiddlypom (20 December 2013)

budley95 said:



			Sorry I'm really confused.
		
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Me too.


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## babymare (20 December 2013)

OP i cant add any more than others said esp photos. But i want to give you a hug. You obviously cared and still do for horse. please document and photo horse. write everything down now while fresh in brain. state horse in when brought back,phone calls etc everything. I hope you can turn  poor animal around hun )))) hug (((( x


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## Misha (20 December 2013)

No that was 4 yo gelding I still have and he has been seen by vet + physio they think he may of got cast in stable and had bit of muscle damage. He is ok now, starting work slowly. He had some ultrasound treatment and physio left magnet here to use 2 x a day. So yes I am too guilty of accusing ( or thinking) that he may of sold me lame horse. And just before somebody start asking why am buying one and selling other... This 4 yo is 17 hands weight carrier for a gentleman to go hunting, where this chap who just come back to me is 16 hand fine horse


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## CBAnglo (20 December 2013)

MrsD123 said:



			OP is not a dealer as such, just brings a few on, and I expect she won't be doing that again in a hurry.
		
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Regardless of whether OP is a dealer, she is an "equine professional" - not sure I would send my horse for schooling/selling to someone who had a reputation (whether justified or not) for selling broken horses.

ETS: this is why it is easier to blackmail OP with reputational damage - no suggestion from me that the OP had sold a broken horse!


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## Slightlyconfused (20 December 2013)

where abouts are you op....maybe some people might know of the instructor, of have a google or browse on local fb groups to see if anything comes up, same with the people who had him.

hope he is okay.


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## lastchancer (20 December 2013)

You should share your experience with with this buyer from hell on the Dodgy Dealers fbook page. Name and shame them, it might save other sellers some heartache.


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## Aarrghimpossiblepony (21 December 2013)

Have followed this thread for the last few days.

Am I understanding this right, they turned up at night with the horse in the trailer unexpectedly and you gave them a full refund.

Have to ask why and how?
Did you have the cash on you? A bank draft?

And the horse is lame but no vet can see him at all for a few days?


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## Exploding Chestnuts (21 December 2013)

CBAnglo said:



			Regardless of whether OP is a dealer, she is an "equine professional" - not sure I would send my horse for schooling/selling to someone who had a reputation (whether justified or not) for selling broken horses.

ETS: this is why it is easier to blackmail OP with reputational damage - no suggestion from me that the OP had sold a broken horse!
		
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She does not want a reputation for being a soft touch, after all the purchasers did not allow access to the horse which is unreasonable and returned it broken, something not mentioned, and then started swearing and abusing her........ they deserve to be outed so that other people don't fall for this.


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## Exploding Chestnuts (21 December 2013)

deleted


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## Honey08 (29 December 2013)

Is there any update on this thread?  I've been away and it was left very strangely..


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## Nightmare before Christmas (29 December 2013)

I have bought and sold a few. I had a selling mishap earlier this year when one suffered injury in their trailer when they picked her up and was PTS. Had the whole wanted money back thing etc. PM me if you like. I would not want to take the horse back. I would offer to go and sit on it and give them a lesson and some help


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## Nightmare before Christmas (29 December 2013)

CBAnglo said:



			I think that there is something very suspicious about this whole thing.   The fact that they did not register change in ownership for 4 weeks is suspicious, as well as conveniently dropping him off when you have a clinic. They knew they could blackmail you with your reputation; this is the cost of doing business.

I would keep him box rested/small pen turnout until the vet arrives/take him to the vet.  He could have done something like a tendon being bashed about and then started rearing in protest.  I hope that he comes sound, what an awful situation for a youngster especially as it sounds as though you have been so careful with him.  Perhaps in future you should try to get some more info on a buyer / enter in a sale contract which says that if they wish to return the horse within the first 4 weeks they agree that you will deduct the pirce of a 5 stage vetting up to the amount of £x and deduct £100 per week up to £400 from the refund (to cover the "use" of the horse in that time) or take the horse back to sell on as agent (and set out what commission (if any)/keep fees will apply).  Then everyone knows where they stand.  

Such a shame - viewer no. 2 could have been a lovely person who would have loved the horse.
		
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To add ive never changed a horses ownership to me!


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## FfionWinnie (29 December 2013)

Giving them their money back in the circumstances you describe is catastrophic. Not getting a vet to attend that night before they left at their expense, further weakens your position.


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