# Saddle issue, help please



## junglejane (13 April 2013)

Hi everyone, I have a rather rotund cob (at the best of times) but having had lots of time off recently hes put on even more weight. When I tacked him up to ride the other day I noticed that his saddle didnt sit the same as it used to. He put his head down to cheekily graze and the saddle was lifting slightly at the back. He wears a breast plate and I wasn't sure if this was contributing to the lifting action? Hes flat backed and has no withers at all  I know cobs change in size quite alot and I'm sure now that hes back in work his figure will come back  but what I want to know is am I going to be causing any damage if I ride him with his saddle like this? He has a Wintec Cair extra wide fit saddle. I'm considering going treeless but currently dont have the funds to invest in a new saddle  any help or advice would be much appreciated.


----------



## Tammytoo (13 April 2013)

I know the Wintec saddles are adjustable with different gullets, is there a wider fit gullet than the XW that you have now?  I would be very careful riding in a saddle that is obviously too tight at the moment, the pressure from the points of the saddle digging into the shoulders can be quite damaging.

I think you need the opinion of a professional, independent, fitter, or consider bareback, a strict diet and lots of lunging until the saddle fits!


----------



## webble (14 April 2013)

If its lifting at the back it could cause bruising. Is it on too tight for his shoulders?

I would get a saddle fitter out and it checked. Re tree less I had my first tree less ride on Fri and it was amazing


----------



## JillA (14 April 2013)

I don't personally know the Wintec but does it have point billets? (the front girth strap, does it attach to the front point of the tree). If so and if you are attaching your girth to it that is the problem - use the middle and rear billets to free up the tree point so it isn't constricting his shoulders and pulling the saddle down at the front.
If that isn't the problem get a good saddler/fitter out - they might be able to shim or reflock to solve the broblem for you.


----------



## junglejane (14 April 2013)

JillA said:



			I don't personally know the Wintec but does it have point billets? (the front girth strap, does it attach to the front point of the tree). If so and if you are attaching your girth to it that is the problem - use the middle and rear billets to free up the tree point so it isn't constricting his shoulders and pulling the saddle down at the front.
If that isn't the problem get a good saddler/fitter out - they might be able to shim or reflock to solve the broblem for you.
		
Click to expand...

Thanks for your response. I'm not too sure what that means  the girth straps are as they would be on most saddles, 3 straps, but not sure if the first strap attaches to the tree?? Its probably about 6+ years old (the saddle) so it isnt one of the better 'Y-Girthing' saddles if thats what you meant? Could I or should I fasten the girth to the middle and rear straps to see if that makes a difference? I was under the impression that you should always fasten your girth to the first strap and then either the middle or rear, but always the first for safety. Sorry to seem so stupid  he has such an awkward shape, when I first had him the saddle was slightly unfitting for his shape but with work it totally improved and was a really good fit for him (how it was originally intended I would assume as his tack came with him when I got him) I'm relocating shortly and dont have the funds for a new saddle or even the cost of reflocking probably  I know the saddle will fit better once hes slimmed down but to get him to slim down I need to work him, muzzles dont help him to drop weight he really needs the work, he hates lunging with a passion lol and hes hard to ride bare back due to his shape hes such a barrel and I'm so short in my leg I feel like I'm perched on top with no grip lol any further advice would be so appreciated  thanks for your time everyone


----------



## JillA (14 April 2013)

I'll try and explain but you might need to take a picture if you still don't understand what I mean. The saddle tree has an arch at the front and the arch ends in a point either side, (it isn't pointed, just to confuse matters) in front of and lower than the stirrup bars. It is shown in this photo of my little Albion - the point is in the U shaped pocket with the piece of webbing attached, above the knee roll








Some saddles have the front billet attached where the webbing is on mine, and if you use that billet it pulls the front of the saddle down. Just check yours - it may be nothing to do with that but if it is that, it is easily sorted, just use the other billets.


----------



## junglejane (14 April 2013)

JillA said:



			I'll try and explain but you might need to take a picture if you still don't understand what I mean. The saddle tree has an arch at the front and the arch ends in a point either side, (it isn't pointed, just to confuse matters) in front of and lower than the stirrup bars. It is shown in this photo of my little Albion - the point is in the U shaped pocket with the piece of webbing attached, above the knee roll








Some saddles have the front billet attached where the webbing is on mine, and if you use that billet it pulls the front of the saddle down. Just check yours - it may be nothing to do with that but if it is that, it is easily sorted, just use the other billets.
		
Click to expand...

Thanks for the photo Jill thats really helped! My saddle however looks nothing like that  it looks like your standard 3 girth straps close together in succession kind of saddle (if I knew how to post photos I'd show you!) so does this mean that its not likely to be the billets and it wouldnt help to buckle the girth to the middle and rear straps??


----------



## JillA (14 April 2013)

Yes probably - it is really only an issue if the front one is attached to the tree point. Can I ask why you use a beast plate - is he wide but with no belly?


----------



## junglejane (14 April 2013)

JillA said:



			Yes probably - it is really only an issue if the front one is attached to the tree point. Can I ask why you use a beast plate - is he wide but with no belly?
		
Click to expand...

Hes actually more the opposite, not so wide chested but has a big barrel-like belly! I suppose I use it because thats the tack he came with, his old owner said I'd need it to help keep the saddle in place?? Could that be causing the problem?


----------



## JillA (14 April 2013)

It could be pulling the saddle forward if it is tight, or stopping the front of the saddle rising slightly to allow the rear to settle. I would try it without and see what happens - if he is, er, rotund and his girth groove is well enough defined there should be enough to keep the saddle in its proper natural position. Give it a go?


----------



## junglejane (14 April 2013)

JillA said:



			It could be pulling the saddle forward if it is tight, or stopping the front of the saddle rising slightly to allow the rear to settle. I would try it without and see what happens - if he is, er, rotund and his girth groove is well enough defined there should be enough to keep the saddle in its proper natural position. Give it a go?
		
Click to expand...

Thanks for your help Jill  I will take it off and see if the saddle is a better fit without it. When you say girth groove, is this the area where the girth would sit behind the legs?? Sorry to sound so novice but essentially I suppose I am! It is fairly well defined I suppose as in he carries his weight higher up and along his belly as well as underneath, very much like a barrel would be so it does go up and in more behind his front legs and in front of his back legs. Dont know if I'm explaining that very well at all lol hope you can follow!


----------



## junglejane (14 April 2013)

I'm also now wondering if I'm putting the saddle too far forwards and that might be creating the 'lift'?? He has no withers so its hard to know where to put it but was always told (by my boss who has 30+ years experience so I guess I thought she knew what she was talking about??) to put the saddle as far forward as possible so that the girth is tucked in as close to the front legs as it can be. Would this be correct, or variable depending upon the horses shape, size etc)??


----------



## JillA (14 April 2013)

It's really difficult to tell without seeing him but there is normally what a saddler fitter friend of mine calls his "wrist" - a slight indentation where the girth would sit. It will normally find its own place if you don't use the breast plate, but not TOO close to his elbows, maybe an inch or two behind them. Just play about with it and experiment, so long as it isn't too far back onto his loins there isn't a lot of harm you can do. This is my rather chubby horse wearing his new Schleese saddle, to give you some idea of how far back the girth is from his elbow


----------



## junglejane (14 April 2013)

JillA said:



			It's really difficult to tell without seeing him but there is normally what a saddler fitter friend of mine calls his "wrist" - a slight indentation where the girth would sit. It will normally find its own place if you don't use the breast plate, but not TOO close to his elbows, maybe an inch or two behind them. Just play about with it and experiment, so long as it isn't too far back onto his loins there isn't a lot of harm you can do. This is my rather chubby horse wearing his new Schleese saddle, to give you some idea of how far back the girth is from his elbow


I was trying to find a photo so I could show you how his saddle sits but cant find one where its in clear sight like yours is! I think mine might be slightly more forward than yours so will move it around a little and see if it helps. I think maybe because he has a really chunky neck but not so broad in the chest and then has this huge barrelesque belly that maybe the breast plate is contributing to the saddle to rising. Not helped either by the fact that he is flat backed! I desperately need to get him fit again especially coming into spring/summer with the amount of weight hes carrying I'm a nervous wreck! Might have to do lots of leading out in hand to try and get the weight off if I can physically manage it up and down the hills, lots of them where I am and I'm not particularly fit myself at the moment either! All the bad weather last year and then winter means we have both slacked off and put weight on!!   your boy looks a lovely sort  nice saddle too! 

Click to expand...


----------



## JillA (14 April 2013)

Good luck, have fun playing with it. Thanks for the comments about mine (shhh, saddle cost a heap of money, and it is very very nice )


----------



## Rhodders (14 April 2013)

I'd say if it only has 3 girth straps it's a standard wintec and not at all suitable for a cob.  You need a wintec wide which is built on a flat tree and has 4 girth straps.  I rode my flat backed no withered horse in a standard bates (leather version of a standard wintec) it did some serious damage.  Get a saddler out for your peace of mind,, but from experience and learning the hard way I would be 100% certain your saddle is not suitable for your horse


----------



## junglejane (14 April 2013)

Rhodders said:



			I'd say if it only has 3 girth straps it's a standard wintec and not at all suitable for a cob.  You need a wintec wide which is built on a flat tree and has 4 girth straps.  I rode my flat backed no withered horse in a standard bates (leather version of a standard wintec) it did some serious damage.  Get a saddler out for your peace of mind,, but from experience and learning the hard way I would be 100% certain your saddle is not suitable for your horse
		
Click to expand...

Thanks for the advice althought that has gotten me into a bit of a panic now  I had ridden him in this saddle before when he was fit and the actual fit then seemed much better than it is now. I was hoping that once he was fit again that the saddle would fit better again. Do you still think its the wrong saddle altogether? Can I ask what saddle you ride in now? Do you think treeless for a flat backed shape shifting cob might be a good direction to go in? I dont want to cause him any pain or damage


----------



## Rhodders (14 April 2013)

The shape of the tree in a standard wintec is not suited to a flat backed horse at all.  I don't think it will ever fit, The bates I had my instructor told me fitted my horse, one day his hair either side of his back looked strange 48 hours later it was all white, in massive patches as big as a hand span. Took 2 years to fix him.
I now ride in a GFS haflinger exc - again changeable gullet for changing during seasonal fluctuations but built on a flat tree so suited to flat backed wide boys.
I tried treeless at one point but just didn't get on with it, I like the security of knee rolls as I have some pretty hairy down hill hacking here.  It's worth the £40 or so it costs to get a master saddler out, they will give advice as to what sort of saddle will suit your horses shape, you can then search one out at a price you can afford and then get the saddler back to fit it


----------



## Tammytoo (15 April 2013)

I believe Thorowgood do a special "cob" saddle. it might be worth considering this?
They do two versions - the T8 which is around £450 and the Griffin Cob which is around £180.


----------



## sbloom (16 April 2013)

Can you not just get a good fitter out to check it?  When a horse puts its head down to eat it lifts its back, even more than when you're riding in it, and of course there is no weight in the saddle.  This means that if the saddle is lifting in this scenario it doesn't mean much, what the saddle does under the rider is much more important.  

Why do you use a breastplate?  Does the saddle drift backwards without, in normal use ie flatwork?  Better girthing options (a girth strap attached back near the cantle) can help with that if the saddle is otherwise a good fit.

So, when you're riding, has the saddle started to lift at the back in rising trot?  Can you have someone watch you to see?  Is it waggling at the back?  Is it moving to one side?  If any of these things are happening then it is time to get the fitter out to adjust it.

I'm no great fan of Wintecs, especially horses with flatter backs:

http://saddlefitter.blogspot.co.uk/2011/09/changeable-gullets-details.html

and do agree that learning as much you can about saddle fit is a good thing.  I try and show my clients what to look for in a well fitting saddle so that, once I have fitted them a new saddle, they know when there is an issue developing and therefore when to call me.  Much better than an arbitrary annual check.


----------



## junglejane (17 April 2013)

sbloom said:



			Can you not just get a good fitter out to check it?  When a horse puts its head down to eat it lifts its back, even more than when you're riding in it, and of course there is no weight in the saddle.  This means that if the saddle is lifting in this scenario it doesn't mean much, what the saddle does under the rider is much more important.  

Why do you use a breastplate?  Does the saddle drift backwards without, in normal use ie flatwork?  Better girthing options (a girth strap attached back near the cantle) can help with that if the saddle is otherwise a good fit.

So, when you're riding, has the saddle started to lift at the back in rising trot?  Can you have someone watch you to see?  Is it waggling at the back?  Is it moving to one side?  If any of these things are happening then it is time to get the fitter out to adjust it.

I'm no great fan of Wintecs, especially horses with flatter backs:

http://saddlefitter.blogspot.co.uk/2011/09/changeable-gullets-details.html

and do agree that learning as much you can about saddle fit is a good thing.  I try and show my clients what to look for in a well fitting saddle so that, once I have fitted them a new saddle, they know when there is an issue developing and therefore when to call me.  Much better than an arbitrary annual check.
		
Click to expand...

Thanks ever so much for the link its really interesting and helpful, definately learnt things that I knew nothing about! His saddle came with an XW bar already inserted so I've never looked at the bar so had no idea that they're not quite straight. On the subject of my boys saddle, I have tried it on without the breast plate attached and it definately fits better and doesn't lift up at the back any more, so either the breast plate was too tight (admittedly I hadnt altered it even though he has put weight on) or he doesnt need it at all. I do think that in the long run he maybe requires a more straight cut dressage type saddle as his current saddle does look close to his shoulders, its a gp saddle. I think you are right and he does need to see a saddle fitter, will find one in my area and get them to come out and assess him.


----------

