# Raw feeders - has anyone given up and gone back to kibble?



## {97702} (6 July 2013)

Raw feeding right at the minute is driving me nuts - of course I try to keep everything scrupulously clean etc but particularly with the hot weather there seem to be endless flies, smells and mess 

Has anyone gone back to feeding kibble from feeding raw?  My dogs all LOVE raw, so guilt is the factor which keeps me feeding it   Originally I did it to try and improve their teeth, but in actual fact it has made no difference at all


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## Superhot (6 July 2013)

Why have you got a problem with flies etc.  I fill a bowl with enough frozen mince every morning and cover it with a lid, or put it in a cupboard or drawer and it's thawed by teatime.  How long have you been feeding raw?


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## {97702} (6 July 2013)

I've fed raw for about two years  

I put the wrappers in the outside wheelie bin, which stinks in the hot weather and attracts flies?  Also the products I order from MVM contain a fair amount of liquid so I am forever cleaning up spills (using antibacterial spray of course!) when I am unpacking and feeding the stuff, the venison/dark meat products smell particularly strong etc etc


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## dappyness (6 July 2013)

I did... It was far to much hassle (hides from the raw brigade!). The dogs became quite food aggressive and remembering to defrost stuff was such a nightmare.

I know I will get the - just be more organised..... it's not hassle if you do it properly and feed them apart

but ... you know what..... Im happy... Dogs are happy and very healthy so I figure why not.

Your not a bad owner just because you dont want to feed raw.  Remember it suits some lifestyles and doesn't others.


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## {97702} (6 July 2013)

LOL Dappyness I'm glad I'm not the only one   I have a freezer full of stuff to use up so there won't be any immediate change, but I am sorely tempted....


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## Dexter (6 July 2013)

I defrost mine in a tall plastic tub. Take them out, in the bowl, liquid dwmn the sink. Wrappers in a carrier bag and in the wheelie bin. Nappy sacks would be good if smells are a problem though 

I wouldnt ever go back. Dogs look amazing, their temperaments changed for the better and they just love their food. My bitch is food aggressive and it is a pain, but I just work round it.

I also feed their food frozen at least twice a week when I forget to defrost it, or if its really hot like today. They dont mind at all. Today they really appreciated big frozen lumps of beef spleen to chew


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## {97702} (6 July 2013)

Yep I do that Dexter - obviously the flies in Gloucestershire are quite tenacious as they still seem to be around


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## Triskar (6 July 2013)

I have as well.  Now that there is Eden Holistic and Simpson's 80:20 as well as the phenomenally expensive Orijen, I reckon my dogs are getting a better ancestral diet on Eden than they were getting with me feeding raw.  And it's working out cheaper as well, since I'm not having to give a joint supplement now - the feed contains a joint support pack - or kelp tablets since it includes seaweed....  and I need the extra freezer space this year for the incredible crop of plums we're going to have this year!


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## MissTyc (6 July 2013)

I try to get the bags off while it's still frozen so any liquids defrost into the tupperware and dog licks that clean. I defrost in the morning for evening and evening for morning ... the bags do smell sometimes but I keep my wheelie bin outside far away from the house so I don't really care.


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## {97702} (6 July 2013)

LOL MissTyc perhaps I should just move my wheelie bin then


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## MissTyc (6 July 2013)

Works for me! 

More seriously, do you package your own meat for freezing? I found that packing it as loosely as possible means the bags don't freeze onto the meat itself and then you can remove them quite dryly. In fact they come off dry enough usually that I can stick them in a box and reuse for the next load of meat. Liquidy bags I agree are very yucky and yes they do stink and the only solution is to make sure the stink is further than my nose's range.


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## s4sugar (6 July 2013)

Put the wrappers in a carrier bag in the freezer & put in the bin on bin day. 

Saves a lot of smells & flies.


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## Superhot (6 July 2013)

I wash wrappers out before putting into the bin. Spray inside bin with fly killer if flies are a problem.
Don't feel guilty, you have to do what suits you as well as your dog!!


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## Cinnamontoast (6 July 2013)

Partially with big dog who started to refuse raw except for chicken. I still slide him as much raw as possible.


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## vieshot (7 July 2013)

I don't have any issue with flies? Meat comes from the freezer into a plastic container which once defrosted goes in the fridge. Dog bowls are cleaned up immediately after dinner and packets are bin bagged up and kept in a big sealed container in the back garden until bin day. 

Nothing is left around for flies to get at.


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## blackcob (7 July 2013)

Maybe try switching suppliers for one with a 'drier' product? Mine are fed about 60% chicken wings at the moment and are just chucked them straight from the fridge, no liquid or gloopy packets hanging around. Blocks and bags of minced stuff are defrosted in tupperware in the fridge and rinsed out with every use. They're still more bother than chicken bits, hence the chickeny bias.


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## {97702} (7 July 2013)

i think that might be it BC - I hardly feed any chicken now, it is mainly venison/pork/lamb/beef/tripe - chicken is SO easy and clean in comparison


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## CorvusCorax (7 July 2013)

No flaming from here  I do half and half now as I hand feed for training/do a lot of tracking and hand feeding using raw is minging, and leaving raw food on a track means it will get carried off by crows etc!!

I defrost in tupperware or biscuit boxes, then placed inside a plastic feed bin. And I feed the defrosting juice, just pour it into a bowl (feel free to boke!!!)

I try to use a good fish based dry food. DUCK is a good dryish frozen raw alternative but it is pricey.


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## Spring Feather (8 July 2013)

I live in a country where the summers are incredibly hot and humid and my dogs are fed part RAW and part kibble (Orijen).  I have 10 bowls in the dog room that are always filled but my dogs rarely do more than pick at them throughout the day, usually only eating from them late at night.  Mine are fed RAW through the day so plenty of hours prior to their kibble.  I don't use bowls.  I have 7 big dogs and all RAW is either fresh or frozen.  The frozen I thaw on a kitchen counter in the paper packages.  Once thawed I throw it all outside away from the house.  The dogs each pick what they want and take it off to wherever they want to eat it.  I always wash out the packages thoroughly before they go in the garbage.  I live on a farm so there's always some flies around but we have screened doors and windows so there's not too many in the house and because the dogs all wander off with their food there aren't any more flies around the house than at any other time.


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## lexiedhb (8 July 2013)

Nope- and I wouldnt but can see why folk do- for me its the delivery bit- supplier leaves it and it can be semi defrosted by the time i get to it- blergh- luckily have a dog who is happy to clean up and spills!!


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## {97702} (8 July 2013)

Oh I can so identify with that LexieDHB - I tried pooling deliveries with a group of people to save money, the last time the delivery had arrived at 9am and I couldnt collect until 5pm   it leaked all over my car 

I am going to be patient and wait until I move house in 3 weeks time, that should mean that I have a fridge/freezer for canine use as well as my chest freezer, so will hopefully make things easier   I will also have access to an Aga for instant incineration of dog food wrappers 

I have fed Duck CC and really liked it (as did the dogs!) but with 4 of them it is too expensive   It costs me over 120 pounds per month to feed them as it is


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## Toast (9 July 2013)

I think it crossed my mind once maybe when I found myself pretending to eat a pig's trotter to make my Rottweiler jealous so she'd eat it. (We have raw meaty bone eating issues)
Buttt... She looks so great I couldn't possibly deny her. That, and she won't even entertain kibble now!! I defrost mine in a Tupperware box and wrappers go straight in the wheelie bin. Any blood goes down the sink.


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## DanceswithCows (9 July 2013)

I don't have a choice, the *second* one of my dogs goes near any kind of 'product' I get a vet's bill 

No flies, juices or smells here - I just feed it frozen.  Like a meat ice lolly for them, gives them more to chew.  Done it for years with many different dogs and no problems with any.


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## Nikki J (9 July 2013)

Picklenash said:



			Raw feeding right at the minute is driving me nuts - of course I try to keep everything scrupulously clean etc but particularly with the hot weather there seem to be endless flies, smells and mess 

Has anyone gone back to feeding kibble from feeding raw?  My dogs all LOVE raw, so guilt is the factor which keeps me feeding it   Originally I did it to try and improve their teeth, but in actual fact it has made no difference at all 

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Nothing will clean a dog's teeth once they are brown and plaque-y from years of eating kibble except descaling by the vet under anaesthetic. It is one of the fallacies about switching to raw that unfortunately once the tartar is laid down it is irremovable except by professional scaling.

Having said that PLEASE stick with it, DON't give up.  It is very hard I know especially in this hot weather to maintain a good standard of hygiene in the kitchen, but it is possible with the judicious use of lock n'lock boxes, separate chopping board, knife etc. To give an example, all the dog raw food preparation is done on top of our range cooker (with it turned off of course!), never on the work surfaces.  We do have a dish washer, so everything goes in there - mixed up with the human dishes - and is washed on an 80 degree intensive wash.  If you don't have a dishwasher, then you must wash all the dog stuff separately of course using a separate cloth or brush from the one you use for human dishes, and leave everything to drain on a separate drainer or dry with paper towels.

Store everything in the fridge in sealed lock n'lock boxes and you will be fine.  They are airtight, there is no smell, and just make sure you wash your hands thoroughly and dry with paper towels after touching the raw food.

Stick with it - your dogs will thank you for it, and so will your bank balance!


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## djlynwood (9 July 2013)

Nikki J said:



			Nothing will clean a dog's teeth once they are brown and plaque-y from years of eating kibble except descaling by the vet under anaesthetic. It is one of the fallacies about switching to raw that unfortunately once the tartar is laid down it is irremovable except by professional scaling.

Having said that PLEASE stick with it, DON't give up.  It is very hard I know especially in this hot weather to maintain a good standard of hygiene in the kitchen, but it is possible with the judicious use of lock n'lock boxes, separate chopping board, knife etc. To give an example, all the dog raw food preparation is done on top of our range cooker (with it turned off of course!), never on the work surfaces.  We do have a dish washer, so everything goes in there - mixed up with the human dishes - and is washed on an 80 degree intensive wash.  If you don't have a dishwasher, then you must wash all the dog stuff separately of course using a separate cloth or brush from the one you use for human dishes, and leave everything to drain on a separate drainer or dry with paper towels.

Store everything in the fridge in sealed lock n'lock boxes and you will be fine.  They are airtight, there is no smell, and just make sure you wash your hands thoroughly and dry with paper towels after touching the raw food.

Stick with it - your dogs will thank you for it, and so will your bank balance!
		
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This is great advice. 

Ive been feeding RAW for over 7 years now and its like second nature getting it ready.

Ive also often fed them frozen meat and bones and it does not bother them in the slightest. 

Its also ok to refreeze meat that has defrosted (as long as its for the dogs! not for human consumption)


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## Mince Pie (9 July 2013)

Nikki J said:



			Nothing will clean a dog's teeth *once they are brown and plaque-y from years of eating kibble* except descaling by the vet under anaesthetic. It is one of the fallacies about switching to raw that unfortunately once the tartar is laid down it is irremovable except by professional scaling.
		
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Balls, my dog is nearly 7 and has been eating kibble his whole life. He has great teeth - to the extent that when he was sedated for a hip x-ray the vet asked if I wanted his teeth done when he was 'out'. When I got the bill I noticed there was no charge for his teeth, only to be told they were in excellent condition for his age and they didn't need doing. This is a well respected animal hospital.


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## sandymere (9 July 2013)

The middle way may be easiest, I use a complete as a base then add in meat bones, veggies etc as available. In the summer its butchers waste such as lamb ribs etc and in the winter is game, rabbits, they have caught that are skinned/gutted then halved and frozen. As its all human consumption grade it can defrost overnight I the fridge if warm weather to be fed in the morning. There is no need to feed raw every day, just a couple of times a week will surface to give a boost of decent protein along with teeth cleaning if you give bones.


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## djlynwood (9 July 2013)

sandymere said:



			The middle way may be easiest, I use a complete as a base then add in meat bones, veggies etc as available. In the summer its butchers waste such as lamb ribs etc and in the winter is game, rabbits, they have caught that are skinned/gutted then halved and frozen. As its all human consumption grade it can defrost overnight I the fridge if warm weather to be fed in the morning. There is no need to feed raw every day, just a couple of times a week will surface to give a boost of decent protein along with teeth cleaning if you give bones.
		
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Its not a good idea to feed RAW and kibble together. RAW is digested faster than the kibble. The kibble sits in the gut longer as the body has to work harder to process it. This in turn means that the raw food stays with the kibble in the gut. We all know what happens to meat when it is left.


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## {97702} (9 July 2013)

Nikki J said:



			Nothing will clean a dog's teeth once they are brown and plaque-y from years of eating kibble except descaling by the vet under anaesthetic. It is one of the fallacies about switching to raw that unfortunately once the tartar is laid down it is irremovable except by professional scaling.

Stick with it - your dogs will thank you for it, and so will your bank balance!
		
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Sorry to pick out just two aspects of your post NikkiJ as you have posted some good advice (which I actually already follow) but one of my dogs had teeth which were scaled under anaesthetic (with 14 extractions) before he came to me, he has been on raw all of that time, and he still had a large number of teeth out a couple of months ago so he only has 7 teeth remaining.  That is what I meant about not helping with teeth, not trying to redress damage which had already been done by feeding kibble - some greyhounds just have rubbish teeth 

Also my bank balance most certainly does not thank me, it costs me on average at least £45 per month more to feed raw than it would to feed Skinners Duck and Rice which I previously used 

More generally, I choose not to feed frozen meat/bones to my dogs personally, I fully understand that others make the choice to do that & that it presents them/their dogs with no problems, it is just something I dont want to do.


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## NinjaPony (9 July 2013)

To be honest I will not be feeding my new puppy raw. It doesn't fit with my lifestyle, and as a very small papillon puppy I don't want to risk bones etc, they have teeny little teeth. So my puppy will be fed Lily's Kitchen, expensive yes but full of proper meat rather than "meal", organic, and containing very good quality ingredients. I will probably feed a mixture of wet and dry so there is variety and add cooked chicken as well on occasion.
Don't get me wrong I know that RAW is a very good diet but I don't think its for me.


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## djlynwood (9 July 2013)

Picklenash said:



			Also my bank balance most certainly does not thank me, it costs me on average at least £45 per month more to feed raw than it would to feed Skinners Duck and Rice which I previously used 

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I feed two big German Shepherds and my monthly raw dog food order is never more than £60. Sometimes it is a lot less. 

I used to feed Royal Cannin kibble which was £30 a sack 7 years ago (breeders rates) which just about lasted a month for one dog.


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## Embo (9 July 2013)

Sorry, not dogs, but I RAW feed my 2 cats. Sometimes when it's a hassle, I remember what the mess in the litter tray was like when they were on commercial food... it's an easy choice to keep on RAW lol. 

I only keep a box of food pouches for if I forget to get something out of the freezer for them.

RAW is not for everyone, but I wouldn't feed anything else now. If it doesn't fit in with your routine anymore, OP, then maybe a change back is best. As long as your animals are happy and healthy, who is anyone to disagree with your choice.


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## Nikki J (9 July 2013)

Broke_But_Happy said:



			Balls, my dog is nearly 7 and has been eating kibble his whole life. He has great teeth - to the extent that when he was sedated for a hip x-ray the vet asked if I wanted his teeth done when he was 'out'. When I got the bill I noticed there was no charge for his teeth, only to be told they were in excellent condition for his age and they didn't need doing. This is a well respected animal hospital.
		
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I never said ALL kibble-fed dogs would have brown plaque-y teeth!!  I too know dogs who have been kibble-fed, and have lovely white teeth.

It is just my *own personal* experience with my rescue dog Tai - who was fed on kibble for the first 5 or 6 years of his life - and all the dogs I have ever owned in over 40 years that were fed of wet tinned food and biscuits - all had horrible brown stained teeth by the time they were 5.


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## Nikki J (9 July 2013)

Picklenash said:



			Sorry to pick out just two aspects of your post NikkiJ as you have posted some good advice (which I actually already follow) but one of my dogs had teeth which were scaled under anaesthetic (with 14 extractions) before he came to me, he has been on raw all of that time, and he still had a large number of teeth out a couple of months ago so he only has 7 teeth remaining.  That is what I meant about not helping with teeth, not trying to redress damage which had already been done by feeding kibble - some greyhounds just have rubbish teeth 

Also my bank balance most certainly does not thank me, it costs me on average at least £45 per month more to feed raw than it would to feed Skinners Duck and Rice which I previously used 

More generally, I choose not to feed frozen meat/bones to my dogs personally, I fully understand that others make the choice to do that & that it presents them/their dogs with no problems, it is just something I dont want to do.
		
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Gosh - I've never heard of that before - are you sure he was always raw fed and only raw fed?  No kibble?

I am amazed also what you say about the higher costs.  I have no knowledge of Skinners, but assuming it is not a very cheap kibble, all I can advise is that you change suppliers?  Landywoods are very cheap, DAF, Berriewoods and Albion.  I have 2 monsters - weighing in each at 45 kilos - and it costs us £2 per day to feed the 2 dogs - £1 each - and this includes bones, the odd chicken wing, raw carrots, offal etc.  To feed them both on a good quality kibble - say Arden Grange or Milburns (both I know are very expensive, but even so, even feeding an average priced kibble we have worked out it would cost far more than £2 per day).

Not included in the £1 each per day costs are electricity to run their small chest freezer, so you could probably add a bit on for that.

But a big big big saving is in vets' fees - bar accidents, Tai has never been to the vet in the 6 years we have owned him.  Ben had sarcoptic mange which he caught from my daughter's cat which involved a vet visit, but apart from that and as I say one or two accidents neither dog ever go anywhere near a vet, saving us a small fortune.  We have even cancelled their insurance because it just did not make economic sense to have it.


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## Nikki J (9 July 2013)

djlynwood said:



			I feed two big German Shepherds and my monthly raw dog food order is never more than £60. Sometimes it is a lot less. 

I used to feed Royal Cannin kibble which was £30 a sack 7 years ago (breeders rates) which just about lasted a month for one dog.
		
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Roughly the same as us then.  That Royal Canin at £30 a sack 7 years ago, would now cost more like £50 or £60 I would think, so it is roughly half price feeding raw, which is what we find.


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## {97702} (9 July 2013)

Nikki J said:



			Gosh - I've never heard of that before - are you sure he was always raw fed and only raw fed?  No kibble?

I am amazed also what you say about the higher costs.  I have no knowledge of Skinners, but assuming it is not a very cheap kibble, all I can advise is that you change suppliers?  Landywoods are very cheap, DAF, Berriewoods and Albion.  I have 2 monsters - weighing in each at 45 kilos - and it costs us £2 per day to feed the 2 dogs - £1 each - and this includes bones, the odd chicken wing, raw carrots, offal etc.  To feed them both on a good quality kibble - say Arden Grange or Milburns (both I know are very expensive, but even so, even feeding an average priced kibble we have worked out it would cost far more than £2 per day).

Not included in the £1 each per day costs are electricity to run their small chest freezer, so you could probably add a bit on for that.

But a big big big saving is in vets' fees - bar accidents, Tai has never been to the vet in the 6 years we have owned him.  Ben had sarcoptic mange which he caught from my daughter's cat which involved a vet visit, but apart from that and as I say one or two accidents neither dog ever go anywhere near a vet, saving us a small fortune.  We have even cancelled their insurance because it just did not make economic sense to have it.
		
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Yes I am quite sure he was only fed raw, I owned him and he was in my house and under my care for the full time between me adopting him and him needing all those teeth out a couple of months ago!  

Unfortunately I wont go with the cheap raw producers as I dont think their products are good enough quality, I have had some VERY poor feedback about DAF, Landywoods and Berriewoods hence sticking with MVM.  I have 4 greyhounds weighing 35kgs, 26kgs, 24kgs and 20kgs respectively, hence a large food bill each month 

As far as vets bills go, mine never went (or currently go) to the vets anyway except for accidents/injuries - touch wood of course


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## djlynwood (10 July 2013)

Picklenash said:



			Unfortunately I wont go with the cheap raw producers as I dont think their products are good enough quality, I have had some VERY poor feedback about DAF, Landywoods and Berriewoods hence sticking with MVM.  I have 4 greyhounds weighing 35kgs, 26kgs, 24kgs and 20kgs respectively, hence a large food bill each month 



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Ive only used DAF since I started raw. I have ordered every month for the last 7 years and can say that I have never had a problem with their service or their prodcuts.


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## Nikki J (10 July 2013)

Picklenash said:



			Yes I am quite sure he was only fed raw, I owned him and he was in my house and under my care for the full time between me adopting him and him needing all those teeth out a couple of months ago!  

Unfortunately I wont go with the cheap raw producers as I dont think their products are good enough quality, I have had some VERY poor feedback about DAF, Landywoods and Berriewoods hence sticking with MVM.  I have 4 greyhounds weighing 35kgs, 26kgs, 24kgs and 20kgs respectively, hence a large food bill each month 

As far as vets bills go, mine never went (or currently go) to the vets anyway except for accidents/injuries - touch wood of course 

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I meant before you had him 

I am surprised by what you say about DAF and Berriewoods in particular - I would agree to a certain point about Landywoods - not because their food itself was rubbish, but their service was, they were very unreliable!  However, DAF are extremely good and Berriewoods were exceptionally good in both terms of delivery and service and their food.  We are with Albion, and them I would give 10 out of 10 in terms of both quality, service and delivery.  Have you actually tried any other suppliers apart from MVM?  I can highly recommend Albion in particular, closely followed by DAF - the only downside of DAF is that they don't deliver everywhere, which can be a real pain.

Good news too about the vets - they are SO expensive, best to keep away from them wherever possible!


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## Toast (10 July 2013)

Not a fan of DAF. Service was ok but products were completely minging and my dogs wouldn't touch it.. much prefer MVM. Worth the extra few pence.


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## {97702} (10 July 2013)

Nikki J said:



			I meant before you had him 

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LMAO   I'm sorry NikkiJ, I had read that as meaning after I had him   Yes he was a greyhound in training for 5 1/2 years before I had him, god knows what he was fed during that time, but what I was trying to say is that his teeth were fully cleaned and sorted when I adopted him, he has been fed raw ever since, yet still they went wrong 

I have only sourced raw from butchers and abattoirs before using MVM, but have heard a lot of people say the same as Toast about DAF


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## Nikki J (11 July 2013)

Picklenash said:



			LMAO   I'm sorry NikkiJ, I had read that as meaning after I had him   Yes he was a greyhound in training for 5 1/2 years before I had him, god knows what he was fed during that time, but what I was trying to say is that his teeth were fully cleaned and sorted when I adopted him, he has been fed raw ever since, yet still they went wrong 

I have only sourced raw from butchers and abattoirs before using MVM, but have heard a lot of people say the same as Toast about DAF 

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Ah I see.  Well there you go, I would never have thought that a raw diet could have stained a dog's teeth but you live and learn something every day with dogs and horses!


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