# Can people buy horses off the meat man?



## Anna2015 (27 October 2015)

There is a dealer local to me that is getting slated at the moment as she is supposedly buying from the meat man and selling the horses on as perfectly fine horses but is that possible? As some people decide to send their horses off to the meat man expecting a quick and humane death... not to be sold on the advertised online??


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## Equi (27 October 2015)

Yes it is if they sell the horse to the meat man and he takes it away alive. When they have sold it to him, it is his to do with what he pleases.


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## hackneylass2 (27 October 2015)

If people wanted a 'quick and humane' end for their horses they would not 'send their horses off' to the meat man.  Meatmen  usually buy their stock at auctions.

It is perfectly possible to buy a decent horse from a low end  'meat' action, if you are very well versed in spotting a potentially decent horse in the rough.  Sadly with the economic situation as it is, there are a lot of viable animals ending up at auctions.  If an honest dealer is good at spotting the ones with potential then good on him or her for buying and putting some training and value on it to sell on.

Owners who want a quick and humane death for their horse have it put down at home, they don't send it 'away'.


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## ester (27 October 2015)

Yes, and sometimes they are perfectly fine horses! our local chap ended up with 3 welsh B's after a lady died, mum and her 2 progeny. Mum went to a small child and the other 2 went to the riding school (he used to ring up if he thought he had anything that should get a try out , it didn't always work .) He also picks up at the new forest sales and throws them in a field to grow up and sells quite a few on as projects.


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## TheMule (27 October 2015)

Send your horse direct to the abattoir and it won't get sold on.
'The meat man' is just someone who buys the cheap dross and takes it to the abattoir- if someone wants to offer more money than its meat value then I'm sure they'd be perfectly happy to take it


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## twiggy2 (27 October 2015)

a quick and humane death with the meat man? I don't think so


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## Red-1 (27 October 2015)

Years ago I had my pony PTS, we did go to the abattoir, but had an arrangement that he would no go "in" the place, but would be dispatched on the house lawn. A friend had done the same so I knew it would all be tasteful, and it was back in the '80s, in our area, it was what was done.

When I got there they insisted that they could not do him that day, and wanted him to go into a stable overnight. I said I would drive him home again ( 2 1/2 hours) and fetch him back the next day, but I would NOT leave him. They suddenly were able to do the deed, and it was quick and as good as could be expected. 

I later found someone else who had the same experience, but DID leave the horse in the stable. She said it was beautiful, well bedded, and she felt she could not refuse.

A year after that I met someone who bought a beautiful looking horse, who turned out to be lame with an occult spavin. She traced its history back, and found a previous owner had taken it to the same place, and she too had left it in the beautiful stable. 

I was so glad I insisted my 35 year old, much loved pony, with melanomas right through, including lungs and heart, was done while I was there. It was indeed a fitting end, in the autumn sunshine, on the house lawn. For years I contemplated what would have happened if I had left him, as he did still look fantastic, as in well covered, sound. He would have looked OK in an auction ring, I guess people would not have listened to his heart/ lungs, even though it was obvious he was compromised even when leading up the steep hill from field to his stable, it would not necessarily have been obvious in an auction setting.

I though THAT was bad enough, but imagine years later, like 30 ish years later, the very abattoir is featured as a horrible, cruel place in the horse meat scandal. The clips of horses in a shared barn, with broken legs, being hung up still alive, they will haunt me for a very long time. I don't think the place was the same 30 years previously, I can't compute the easy end my pont had to being the same place.

If I had not stayed? Who knows? Would he have been sold to auction? Would he have been swiftly out of the stable and into the barn? 

What I do know is that staying to the end was what my pony deserved. It has stopped me being in despair when the horse meat scandal broke. TBH the thought of him being eaten would not have bothered me either way once he was dead, but the thought of that faithful old man being scared and hurt would have driven me mad.

4 years ago Charlie was PTS. This time we did it at home, on our own lawn, with the vet. 

Both ways were fine, but I think staying to see the deed done is essential. And yes, I do think some, in the past at least, were sent to be PTS, only to be sold on at auction if they looked good.


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## Goldenstar (27 October 2015)

All sort of horses end up with meat men , they are dealers buying and selling things .
And they are perfectly entitled to sell on horses if they wish if the owner has taken cash on collection for them.
Sadly often perfectly healthy horses go for meat it just takes one wrong turn for a horses life to go wrong .
And often the horse is in that situation for a very good reason .
PTS your horses at home or on your yard if you want to know where it ends up.


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## D66 (27 October 2015)

On the other hand, I know someone who bought an ex racehorse from the meatman - she looked pretty and wasn't lame but she was never sound enough to ride and had a whole list of health problems and so must have been in some pain.


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## Goldenstar (27 October 2015)

Digger66 said:



			On the other hand, I know someone who bought an ex racehorse from the meatman - she looked pretty and wasn't lame but she was never sound enough to ride and had a whole list of health problems and so must have been some pain.
		
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Buyer beware in that situation .


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## stormox (27 October 2015)

If its a dealer buys off the meat man (who is just a dealer in low-value horses)  they get slated....... if they call themselves a 'rescue'and buy off the meat man they get high praise.....


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## EQUIDAE (27 October 2015)

stormox said:



			If its a dealer buys off the meat man (who is just a dealer in low-value horses)  they get slated....... if they call themselves a 'rescue'and buy off the meat man they get high praise.....
		
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A lot of unscrupulous 'rescues' do this - buy from auction 'saving' it from the meat man and then sell it on a few weeks later for a £400 'donation'. Quite profitable... A charity I used to back horses for did this. I stopped after she was bragging that she pulled in nearly £120k and only declared £26

ETA - they were reported to the charities commission and trading standards. Also to social services and the police as they were working with vulnerable children and had controlled drugs out and kids unsupervised


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## be positive (27 October 2015)

stormox said:



			If its a dealer buys off the meat man (who is just a dealer in low-value horses)  they get slated....... if they call themselves a 'rescue'and buy off the meat man they get high praise.....
		
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That sums it up perfectly.

The "meatman" is not a slaughter house or someone who takes old/ ill/ injured/ unwanted horses off to a quick end, he is a dealer in cheap equines, many of those should have gone directly to the abattoir or pts at home but the owners take the option to get some cash rather than do the right thing, if they then get "recycled" there is only one person to blame and that is the person who sent it off to the meatman rather than take responsibility for their horse and doing the right thing by them.


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## Silver (27 October 2015)

If you want to be sure your horse has been put to sleep make sure you are witness to this. Selling to meat man as others have said is not  necessarily going to mean your horse will be put to sleep, just means you have sold your horse on.


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## Equi (27 October 2015)

twiggy2 said:



			a quick and humane death with the meat man? I don't think so
		
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This comment is a bit unfair. Meat men get a lot of abuse for their profession when they just do what everyone else is and making a living by providing a service. There are some truly compassionate slaughterers who don't enjoy their job but do it because it's required. Not all meat men are heartless murderers who just want a blood fix or a few quid.


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## Meowy Catkin (27 October 2015)

They could always buy the horses back and have them PTS. TBH, they should never have sold them in the first place (if PTS was truly the right thing), they should have manned up and arranged for it to be done while still in their ownership.


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## 9tails (27 October 2015)

Anna2015 said:



			There is a dealer local to me that is getting slated at the moment as she is supposedly buying from the meat man and selling the horses on as perfectly fine horses but is that possible? As some people decide to send their horses off to the meat man expecting a quick and humane death... not to be sold on the advertised online??
		
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Ahh bless, rose tinted glasses at their finest.  The meatman isn't a slaughterer, he buys horses cheap who may or may not end up at slaughter.  If you want a quick and humane death, book the vet or hunt to dispatch your horse at home.


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## 9tails (27 October 2015)

equi said:



			This comment is a bit unfair. Meat men get a lot of abuse for their profession when they just do what everyone else is and making a living by providing a service. There are some truly compassionate slaughterers who don't enjoy their job but do it because it's required. Not all meat men are heartless murderers who just want a blood fix or a few quid.
		
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Meatmen don't kill horses, they're dealers.  Slaughterhouses kill horses, meatmen buy horses from auction or cheap sale and sell to the slaughterhouses.


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## Leo Walker (27 October 2015)

EQUIDAE said:



			A lot of unscrupulous 'rescues' do this - buy from auction 'saving' it from the meat man and then sell it on a few weeks later for a £400 'donation'. Quite profitable... A charity I used to back horses for did this. I stopped after she was bragging that she pulled in nearly £120k and only declared £26

ETA - they were reported to the charities commission and trading standards. Also to social services and the police as they were working with vulnerable children and had controlled drugs out and kids unsupervised 

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Frankie came from a similar "rescue" They were living on a rented yard, paid for with housing benefit, and getting horses from the meat man on a sale or return basis, and then rehoming them for a donation. It all went horribly wrong when they fell out with the landlord and didnt pay the meat man. 

Frankie didnt actually come from the meat man but was gifted to them from his old owners who couldnt afford to keep him. He was only there 3 weeks when I got him. I went and picked him up at 3pm, and found a yard full of horses not mucked out, having been stood in from the night before, and loads more out in a field full of foggage and ragwort. 

My "donation" for him was £500, which for a 2yr old 13.2/3hh cob in the North East, was over the odds. He also came with a fake passport, which added another £100 to his cost! The only reason I even considered it, is because I'd been watching it all unfold on Facebook, and I could see Frankie was exactly what I wanted and hadnt been able to find anywhere else. I wouldnt have done it if I had been funding them continuing, but it was unravelling fast by the time I got him out


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## EQUIDAE (27 October 2015)

9tails said:



			Ahh bless, rose tinted glasses at their finest.  The meatman isn't a slaughterer, he buys horses cheap who may or may not end up at slaughter.  If you want a quick and humane death, book the vet or hunt to dispatch your horse at home.
		
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I think this view is a bit rose tinted too - some people are crippled by vets bills (not covered by the insurance) and cannot afford to pay to have the horse PTS and removed. When my horse passed it cost £380 just for disposal of the carcass without factoring in the PTS cost. As much as you budget for unexpected vets bills (and paying by payment plan at the vets), actual euthnasia is costly. Many hunts now can't/won't take horses due to not needing them any more - so that option is limited too, some charge as much as a vet/removal service would be. Even when you are insured, some policies do not cover euthenasia and removal costs.

If someone is taking a horse that is only suitable for euthenasia - then that is what you expect. You don't expect them to be sold on, but it happens.

A mare I had in for backing was 'rescued' from the slaughter house by a charity as she was a very well bred TB and they saw £££ with rehab. Turns out that the mare had a incorrectly healed fractured pelvis, SI problems, kissing spines (4 vertebre), a fracture to the poll and a fractured eye socket. They tried and tried to 'rehab' and rehome her. She put one adopter in hospital and another never even attempted to ride her - instead choosing to PTS as they actually had her xrayed (previously she had been seen by a 'back person'). 

I'm sure the owners who sent her to the slaughterhouse knew she would never be ridden again or even field sound and chose to do the right thing. Sadly the slaughterhouse bowed to a kindly neighbours advice and passed her on to the charity


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## EQUIDAE (27 October 2015)

FrankieCob said:



			Frankie came from a similar "rescue" They were living on a rented yard, paid for with housing benefit, and getting horses from the meat man on a sale or return basis, and then rehoming them for a donation. It all went horribly wrong when they fell out with the landlord and didnt pay the meat man. 

Frankie didnt actually come from the meat man but was gifted to them from his old owners who couldnt afford to keep him. He was only there 3 weeks when I got him. I went and picked him up at 3pm, and found a yard full of horses not mucked out, having been stood in from the night before, and loads more out in a field full of foggage and ragwort. 

My "donation" for him was £500, which for a 2yr old 13.2/3hh cob in the North East, was over the odds. He also came with a fake passport, which added another £100 to his cost! The only reason I even considered it, is because I'd been watching it all unfold on Facebook, and I could see Frankie was exactly what I wanted and hadnt been able to find anywhere else. I wouldnt have done it if I had been funding them continuing, but it was unravelling fast by the time I got him out
		
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I thought it was the same place until you said the north east


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## Pearlsasinger (27 October 2015)

A responsible owner makes sure that;
a) they can afford to do the right thing at the end of the horse's life.  If their insurance policy wont cover it, they need an additional fund 
b) they (or someone they know well and trust) is present when their horse is pts

If people wish to make a living through buying cheap horses from auctions and selling them on, either to a licensed slaughterhouse or to someone else who wishes to buy them, that is just a matter of business.  It does take an experienced knowledgeable horseperson to pick out the potential from a low end auction but it can certainly be done, and has been done many times.


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## EQUIDAE (27 October 2015)

Pearlsasinger said:



			A responsible owner makes sure that;
a) they can afford to do the right thing at the end of the horse's life.  If their insurance policy wont cover it, they need an additional fund 
b) they (or someone they know well and trust) is present when their horse is pts
		
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Good grief - you can't budget for every eventuality and sometimes people get stung. How many people even know if their policy covers euthenasia and removal - my friend didn't. And this was after a £8,000 vets bill that the insurance company refused to pay. There simply was no more money left - she had £6,000 covered by savings, but finding that extra £2000 meant that there was nothing left for the £500 to have the horse PTS and removed 

There are threads after threads where people have had their horse PTS and haven't been there - some people just do not have the disposition to deal with it (I'm not one of them but I wouldn't condemn them for not being able to handle it).


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## Stockers (27 October 2015)

I'd beg, borrow, or sell my worldly goods to ensure that I had control over the euthenasia of my horse.   I don;t think the tone of this thread condems anyone who wasn;t present at the end - my YO stayed with mine - just those who 'sell' on and remove themselves from the responsibility nof the death - both financially and emotionally.

In the grand scheme of horse ownership and the financial pressure that comes with it, if you can;t stump up £500 to have your horse humanely PTS you probably weren't in a financial position to have one in the first place.


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## 9tails (27 October 2015)

Like Stockers I will get the money from somewhere to euthanase my horse on my property before I ever shipped her off to an auction or slaughterhouse.  It doesn't matter whether I'm in debt for the rest of my life as long as my horse has the best possible death.


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## twiggy2 (27 October 2015)

Silver said:



			If you want to be sure your horse has been put to sleep make sure you are witness to this. Selling to meat man as others have said is not  necessarily going to mean your horse will be put to sleep, just means you have sold your horse on.
		
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I have no problem with the fact but they are shot not put to sleep


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## twiggy2 (27 October 2015)

equi said:



			This comment is a bit unfair. Meat men get a lot of abuse for their profession when they just do what everyone else is and making a living by providing a service. There are some truly compassionate slaughterers who don't enjoy their job but do it because it's required. Not all meat men are heartless murderers who just want a blood fix or a few quid.
		
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I am not slating slaughter men at all, dealers who deal in horses for meat do it for a few quid. A slaughter man and a dealer who deals in horses for meat are 2 very different things.
loading/transporting/unloading at a place that smells of death and fear/being driven through the holding pens/shoots before being dispatched can never be classed as a quick and humane death.
A quick death is a wander to the nearest suitable place and shot or PTS, a humane death is one with as little stress and suffering as possible in my eyes.


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## twiggy2 (27 October 2015)

EQUIDAE said:



			I think this view is a bit rose tinted too - some people are crippled by vets bills (not covered by the insurance) and cannot afford to pay to have the horse PTS and removed. When my horse passed it cost £380 just for disposal of the carcass without factoring in the PTS cost. As much as you budget for unexpected vets bills (and paying by payment plan at the vets), actual euthnasia is costly. Many hunts now can't/won't take horses due to not needing them any more - so that option is limited too, some charge as much as a vet/removal service would be. Even when you are insured, some policies do not cover euthenasia and removal costs.

If someone is taking a horse that is only suitable for euthenasia - then that is what you expect. You don't expect them to be sold on, but it happens.

A mare I had in for backing was 'rescued' from the slaughter house by a charity as she was a very well bred TB and they saw £££ with rehab. Turns out that the mare had a incorrectly healed fractured pelvis, SI problems, kissing spines (4 vertebre), a fracture to the poll and a fractured eye socket. They tried and tried to 'rehab' and rehome her. She put one adopter in hospital and another never even attempted to ride her - instead choosing to PTS as they actually had her xrayed (previously she had been seen by a 'back person'). 

I'm sure the owners who sent her to the slaughterhouse knew she would never be ridden again or even field sound and chose to do the right thing. Sadly the slaughterhouse bowed to a kindly neighbours advice and passed her on to the charity 

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£380 would not break a home and for a humane quick death you find the money after all you wont have the upkeep of the horse so will  be saving money long term


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## OWLIE185 (27 October 2015)

Owning a horse is a responsibility and I do not have a problem with people not being able to be present at the humane dispatch of their horse, however when someone takes on a horse they should ensure they have the financial reserves to finance the humane dispatch of their horse(s) if and when the situation occurs.


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## EQUIDAE (27 October 2015)

twiggy2 said:



			£380 would not break a home and for a humane quick death you find the money after all you wont have the upkeep of the horse so will  be saving money long term
		
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Sometimes it's not just that though is it? You are misunderstanding what I said - that £380 I paid was for removal only, not euthanasia as well. Not, like my friend who 'only' had £6000 savings, the additional £2500 needed. 

People make a decision that they feel is best and who are we to criticise them? It's a hard hard decision anyway - why make people feel bad for it? The owner thinks they are going to be pts - not everyone is as savvy (suspicious) as the folk on here.


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## Exploding Chestnuts (27 October 2015)

twiggy2 said:



			I have no problem with the fact but they are shot not put to sleep
		
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Sorry, what does that mean?
pts is a euphemism for killing a horse.


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## Exploding Chestnuts (27 October 2015)

EQUIDAE said:



			Sometimes it's not just that though is it? You are misunderstanding what I said - that £380 I paid was for removal only, not euthanasia as well. Not, like my friend who 'only' had £6000 savings, the additional £2500 needed. 

People make a decision that they feel is best and who are we to criticise them? It's a hard hard decision anyway - why make people feel bad for it? The owner thinks they are going to be pts - not everyone is as savvy (suspicious) as the folk on here.
		
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I had to dip in to my reserves to ensure my boy got out of a bad situation, I originally started with  £10K, thinking that was plenty,  and I ended up -£2000. 
I would never send a live horse to a "meatman"
I was pretty desperate and considered abandoning him in a farmers field, I really was desperate, the local horsey people thought it was Ok to shoot him because they wanted him out of their field. [BHS "stalwart"]
I had a good person booked to shoot and remove,  £400.


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## 9tails (27 October 2015)

EQUIDAE said:



			Sometimes it's not just that though is it? You are misunderstanding what I said - that £380 I paid was for removal only, not euthanasia as well. Not, like my friend who 'only' had £6000 savings, the additional £2500 needed. 

People make a decision that they feel is best and who are we to criticise them? It's a hard hard decision anyway - why make people feel bad for it? The owner thinks they are going to be pts - not everyone is as savvy (suspicious) as the folk on here.
		
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EQUIDAE, sit back for a second and think about what you're writing.  You don't send your sick, lame, dying horse to an auction for the meatman to buy.  You just don't.


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## Beausmate (27 October 2015)

I know of someone who bought two ponies directly from Potters, so it is, or at least used to be possible.

At Potters they are not driven through holding pens and chutes and the actual death is very quick and calm indeed, in fact the whole process is very calm.

I'd say the most stressful thing about that particular place for the horse, is being moved to a strange place with horses they don't know.


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## ester (27 October 2015)

9tails said:



			EQUIDAE, sit back for a second and think about what you're writing.  You don't send your sick, lame, dying horse to an auction for the meatman to buy.  You just don't.
		
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No but our local knackerman/zoo meat supplier would come and collect them for you, you don't have to send them to auction. Depends on how much you trust them. Personally I would want to see the deed done as in prior situations as a kid when it wasn't my decision I saw several horses go off like that and thought that you could never be sure.


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## ester (27 October 2015)

twiggy2 said:



			I have no problem with the fact but they are shot not put to sleep
		
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The same thing, silver was saying if you sell to the meat man it doesn't mean your horse will be killed, by any means- it could be sold on.


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## 9tails (27 October 2015)

ester said:



			No but our local knackerman/zoo meat supplier would come and collect them for you, you don't have to send them to auction. Depends on how much you trust them. Personally I would want to see the deed done as in prior situations as a kid when it wasn't my decision I saw several horses go off like that and thought that you could never be sure.
		
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Same, if they want the meat they can shoot on site and take the carcass.  My horse will be leaving me without a heartbeat.


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## Goldenstar (27 October 2015)

EQUIDAE said:



			Sometimes it's not just that though is it? You are misunderstanding what I said - that £380 I paid was for removal only, not euthanasia as well. Not, like my friend who 'only' had £6000 savings, the additional £2500 needed. 

People make a decision that they feel is best and who are we to criticise them? It's a hard hard decision anyway - why make people feel bad for it? The owner thinks they are going to be pts - not everyone is as savvy (suspicious) as the folk on here.
		
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I think will all judge other people all the time .
We judge those who rug differently .
Whose horses are kept fatter or thinner than we consider the norm .
And I certainly reserve the right to judge those who send their horses away from home to die .


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## EQUIDAE (27 October 2015)

9tails said:



			EQUIDAE, sit back for a second and think about what you're writing.  You don't send your sick, lame, dying horse to an auction for the meatman to buy.  You just don't.
		
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Goldenstar said:



			I think will all judge other people all the time .
We judge those who rug differently .
Whose horses are kept fatter or thinner than we consider the norm .
And I certainly reserve the right to judge those who send their horses away from home to die .
		
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Well lets hope noone sits in judgement on you then eh?


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## 9tails (27 October 2015)

No-one will.  I guarantee that.


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## EQUIDAE (27 October 2015)

9tails said:



			No-one will.  I guarantee that.
		
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I don't know why it quoted you - noone is suggesting anyone sends a dying horse to auction.


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## Tiddlypom (27 October 2015)

Going back to the OP, I once tried to buy a pony from the meat man but he declined.

It was at Beeston auction in Cheshire. I popped in during the morning and was very taken with a young welsh pony, around 3yo to mature around 12.2hh, a real cracker. I thought he was much too good to go for meat, and left to attend a pre arranged appointment elsewhere.

I came back after the auction had finished, to find that he been bought by the buyer for Turners, of Red Lion abattoir infamy. He was still in the pens, and I did my best to try and buy him off them, for good money, but he wouldn't budge. He said he had a quota to buy, and the pony was part of that, so no sale. A colleague's husband was there as a newly qualified RSPCA inspector, and he was trying to persuade to change his mind, but to no avail. Off to slaughter he went.

I still feel guilty now, many years on, for not staying for the bidding.


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## ester (27 October 2015)

EQUIDAE said:



			I don't know why it quoted you - noone is suggesting anyone sends a dying horse to auction.
		
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No but they do travel them in a trailer to an unknown place.


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## Nudibranch (27 October 2015)

The highest I've had to pay for disposal was £190 for a 16.1 horse, and they shoot them for you as part of the deal. Always quietly, calmly, sensitively handled and the horse knows nothing. Just a normal day, with their mouth full of carrots. Certainly preferable to the veterinary euthanasia I have had the misfortune to witness. So where figures of hundreds or even thousands for pts at home are coming from, I have no idea.
Quite honestly, as already pointed out, if you can't stump up for a humane end then you shouldn't take on an animal in the first place. There is no excuse for sending them away to an abbatoir, especially if you cannot guarantee the quality of the service, i.e. by being there.


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## cbmcts (27 October 2015)

Euthanasia can be anything from £100 by the hunt (exceptionally cheap but it's what I paid 18 months ago for my pony) to £1k if it's an out of hours vet visit/trip to the vet hospital and of course disposal is more expensive if they have been jabbed and you want the ashes back. But it is an essential cost that has to be paid just like feed, farrier and livery IMO. The fact is, if you take money for something, it's no longer yours and the new owner can do whatever they wish be it a car, house, horse or dog.

A poor second, again JMO is taking them to the slaughterhouse and witnessing them shot but that isn't an option for 90% of people due to the lack of slaughterhouses and the over supply of horses. In fact, I could be wrong but the only horse abbatoir that I can remember in the South East was Ashford and I don't think they do horses any more? 

I had an old YO who always said that she had no problem with the meat trade but only if it was on the hook not the hoof and she was of the generation where there was a huge trade in horse meat to Europe. In fact, she used talk about going to local small abbatoir (probably at least 50 years ago now) and seeing the stables full of unsuccessful TBs and native youngstock and that slaughterhouse was also a dealer. The last pony known to have come from there only died about 10 years ago in his late 30's.


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## Pearlsasinger (27 October 2015)

EQUIDAE said:



			Good grief - you can't budget for every eventuality and sometimes people get stung. How many people even know if their policy covers euthenasia and removal - my friend didn't. And this was after a £8,000 vets bill that the insurance company refused to pay. There simply was no more money left - she had £6,000 covered by savings, but finding that extra £2000 meant that there was nothing left for the £500 to have the horse PTS and removed 

There are threads after threads where people have had their horse PTS and haven't been there - some people just do not have the disposition to deal with it (I'm not one of them but I wouldn't condemn them for not being able to handle it).
		
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I don't insure because I have no intention of putting any of my horses through invasive surgery or prolonged box-rest or other treatment which would be likely to run up an excessive vet bill but if I did I would make sure that I knew what I was insured for - and I thought that owners were expected to work with their insurers to determine which treatment would be paid for.
You friend obviously was given a price for something rather more than the equine crematorium coming to the yard doing the job and removing, which usually costs about £200.

If you had read my post properly, you would have seen that I said "or someone they know well and trust" to cater for those who feel unable to stay with their horse as it is pts, in other words don't send the poor creature off into the unknown for its last journey or take the risk that what you expect to happen won't. 

And tbh, if you can't ensure a decent end for your horse, DON'T buy it.  With the rewards of horse ownership come responsibilities, right to the end.

And planning for all eventualities is part of that responsibility.


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## Goldenstar (27 October 2015)

EQUIDAE said:



			Well lets hope noone sits in judgement on you then eh?
		
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Why would I care ?
Why would people who send their horses for slaughter care .
Your judgement can't harm me .


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## Orangehorse (27 October 2015)

I knew someone who would buy off the meatman, I guess she would be classed as a low end dealer, although she had good horses too and knew how to charge.  She used to go to Russia and buy them for pence probably because she said that it was worth it when I asked - not that the Russian horses were very good and she was buying the best on offer, plain and ordinary would be flattering.

However, she would also go and take a look round the meat-man's purchases and if there was anything she fancied he would mostly let her buy them.  There was one nice looking TB "What's wrong with that one?"  "Go and have a look", as she approached him the TB went for her!  That is why he was sold at auction.


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## YorksG (27 October 2015)

Goldenstar said:



			I think will all judge other people all the time .
We judge those who rug differently .
Whose horses are kept fatter or thinner than we consider the norm .
And I certainly reserve the right to judge those who send their horses away from home to die .
		
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Absolutely agree with this, I am horrified that anyone would sell on a horse that they KNEW should be shot, unless they were prepared to take it to a slaughter house themselves. I would have thought that with a horse which had racked up those sort of vet bills, that slaughter house would not have been an option anyway because of the drugs used.


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## justabob (27 October 2015)

Poor meat men, they always get a hard time. They deal with the horses that people don't really care about, they provide a service. A service with no strings attached, no false promises, no mention of rescuing, they just sent them to the knackers. If, you care, you will stand by your old, lame, or dangerous horse. Hold it and stand by it. For the weak, feeble and uncaring there is always the meat man, and unfortunately so many can not take on that final decision. It should never be about cost, because if you DO care you just get on and do it. Real horsemen/women do.


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## Pearlsasinger (27 October 2015)

justabob said:



			If, you care, you will stand by your old, lame, or dangerous horse. Hold it and stand by it. For the weak, feeble and uncaring there is always the meat man, and unfortunately so many can not take on that final decision. It should never be about cost, because if you DO care you just get on and do it. Real horsemen/women do.
		
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Hear, hear!

And any-one who doesn't do that should be ashamed of themselves; no matter how much they have previously spent on vet bills.


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## flirtygerty (27 October 2015)

Pearlsasinger said:



			I don't insure because I have no intention of putting any of my horses through invasive surgery or prolonged box-rest or other treatment which would be likely to run up an excessive vet bill but if I did I would make sure that I knew what I was insured for - and I thought that owners were expected to work with their insurers to determine which treatment would be paid for.
You friend obviously was given a price for something rather more than the equine crematorium coming to the yard doing the job and removing, which usually costs about £200.

If you had read my post properly, you would have seen that I said "or someone they know well and trust" to cater for those who feel unable to stay with their horse as it is pts, in other words don't send the poor creature off into the unknown for its last journey or take the risk that what you expect to happen won't. 

And tbh, if you can't ensure a decent end for your horse, DON'T buy it.  With the rewards of horse ownership come responsibilities, right to the end.

And planning for all eventualities is part of that responsibility.
		
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Sorry but no-one can see what the future holds, I have four horses, 1 youngster, 2 oldies and an 11 yr old, worked hard for a decent wage and could afford my horses and lifestyle, got made redundant, went self employed as I couldn't see anyone employing a late middle-aged woman, when you don't have a regular income, savings disappear fast, 11 yr old now on loan, youngster up for sale, oldies are my problem as I couldn't afford any kind of pts just now, luckily they are in good health, my horses, my problem, but I never thought I would ever be in this position and my business is growing slowly, so there is a glimmer of hope, but I did consider suicide at one point with the mounting problems, so never think it can't happen to you


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## springtime1331 (27 October 2015)

justabob said:



			Poor meat men, they always get a hard time. They deal with the horses that people don't really care about, they provide a service. A service with no strings attached, no false promises, no mention of rescuing, they just sent them to the knackers. If, you care, you will stand by your old, lame, or dangerous horse. Hold it and stand by it. For the weak, feeble and uncaring there is always the meat man, and unfortunately so many can not take on that final decision. It should never be about cost, because if you DO care you just get on and do it. Real horsemen/women do.
		
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Agree 100%


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## FfionWinnie (27 October 2015)

Meat man - horse dealer.  Sell to them it's their horse to do what they want with. 

Knackerer - fallen stock collector (costs £100 to have a horse killed with a humane killer (bolt gun) and removed by them here). Mass incineration disposal. 

Abattoir - slaughter house.  Live entry for animals fit to travel ie not lame or ill, for the food chain or dog food.  Livestock cannot leave an abattoir once they are in it. Horses don't have the same rules so unless you stayed while it was shot (again with a humane killer), I don't suppose you could be absolutely sure what happened to the horse.


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## Pearlsasinger (27 October 2015)

flirtygerty;
I am sorry but there should be an untouchable fund of some kind, whether that be a credit card, or separate bank account, or sock under the mattress, to cater for the unexpected/unthinkable happening.

And at the risk of sounding unfeeling; I am not sure how your suicide would have helped your horses.  However I am glad that you found a way forward and hope that your business grows successfully.

And just for the record, I was made redundant in my 40s, at no point were the horses not catered for.


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## Sugar_and_Spice (27 October 2015)

Why can't someone pay for PTS if necessary?  However skint you may be, horses cost.  How many keep in rented field or at livery?  Most, I imagine.  So if you're skint you PTS then pay the vet or whoever from the field rent/livery fee, even if that takes a few months.  There are no excuses really.  As for being wiped out by vet bills, it's not that hard to know that the last 500 pounds (or whatever is necessary for your chosen PTS and disposal method) is the PTS fund so if you get that low you don't spend it on treatment.


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## justabob (27 October 2015)

You deal with it, thinking of suicide, you need a kick up the backside! That is why we need the meat man.............for the feeble.


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## Tiddlypom (27 October 2015)

justabob said:



			You deal with it, thinking of suicide, you need a kick up the backside! That is why we need the meat man.............for the feeble.
		
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Bloody hell. What an unpleasant post.


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## twiggy2 (27 October 2015)

EQUIDAE said:



			Sometimes it's not just that though is it? You are misunderstanding what I said - that £380 I paid was for removal only, not euthanasia as well. Not, like my friend who 'only' had £6000 savings, the additional £2500 needed. 

People make a decision that they feel is best and who are we to criticise them? It's a hard hard decision anyway - why make people feel bad for it? The owner thinks they are going to be pts - not everyone is as savvy (suspicious) as the folk on here.
		
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I would not allow my animals to suffer for the sake of money-I choose to have them in my life and have and would again go without many things in order to do right by them.


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## Goldenstar (27 October 2015)

justabob said:



			You deal with it, thinking of suicide, you need a kick up the backside! That is why we need the meat man.............for the feeble.
		
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Gently gently .


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## twiggy2 (27 October 2015)

Bonkers2 said:



			Sorry, what does that mean?
pts is a euphemism for killing a horse.
		
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Put to sleep is a euphemism for putting to sleep with a lethal dose of medication not shot, or it is in vet circles. A slaughterman does not put to sleep an animal


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## Goldenstar (27 October 2015)

twiggy2 said:



			Put to sleep is a euphemism for putting to sleep with a lethal dose of medication not shot, or it is in vet circles. A slaughterman does not put to sleep an animal
		
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No it's not we called it PTS before drugs where routinely used to poison horses to death and all horses where shot.


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## justabob (27 October 2015)

Goldenstar said:



			No it's not we called it PTS before drugs where routinely used to poison horses to death and all horses where shot.
		
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I think we used the phrase *put down*


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## Goldenstar (27 October 2015)

While experience tells me it's not the case I just find it's hard to believe there are people who don't want to look their horse in the eye until the very last moment and be there to let them walk to that moment with calmness and trust your time together was built up .
Even as you do it and you think your heart will burst it's what you do see it through to end.
That's what being committed to a horse means and what taking that decision means you see it through .
It's not about the bill you can sell stuff ,beg off family it's not that expensive to have a horse shot it about walking the talk right up to the moment .
I don't think I really grasped the responsibility of horse ownership until I had my first PTS when I was thirty ( my other where still alive or died in the field suddenly )I will never forget leading her ( on crutches with a broken hip ) to the spot .
I think that was the day I grew up.


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## justabob (27 October 2015)

You have hit the nail on the head GS. I have just done everything you have discribed in your post.


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## Natch (27 October 2015)

EQUIDAE said:



			Good grief - you can't budget for every eventuality and sometimes people get stung. How many people even know if their policy covers euthenasia and removal - my friend didn't.
		
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Can't budget for every eventuality? The one eventuality you can be certain of is death. I wouldn't necessarily have savings stashed away for the death of my horse, especially if it was unlikely to be soon but I'd be damn sure I had the availability on my credit card. 

As for it being normal to not know what your horse's insurance covers... It IS normal to plan ahead for what you would do if your horse needed to be euthanaised, including method, by whom, disposal, cost AND if your insurance will cover any of it. It's part of responsible horse ownership.





Beausmate said:



			I know of someone who bought two ponies directly from Potters, so it is, or at least used to be possible.
		
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I used to ride, and was offered for free, a lovely horse who was bought from Turners. He'd been enjoying his second chance at life for 10-15 years.



flirtygerty said:



			Sorry but no-one can see what the future holds, I have four horses, 1 youngster, 2 oldies and an 11 yr old, worked hard for a decent wage and could afford my horses and lifestyle, got made redundant, went self employed as I couldn't see anyone employing a late middle-aged woman, when you don't have a regular income, savings disappear fast, 11 yr old now on loan, youngster up for sale, oldies are my problem as I couldn't afford any kind of pts just now, luckily they are in good health, my horses, my problem, but I never thought I would ever be in this position and my business is growing slowly, so there is a glimmer of hope, but I did consider suicide at one point with the mounting problems, so never think it can't happen to you
		
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I'm so sorry that you've been through all that. It's happened to a lot of people. I'm pretty sure charities will quietly help out people who have had a massive change in finances and their horse then needs to be PTS.


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## Amymay (27 October 2015)

Goldenstar said:



			While experience tells me it's not the case I just find it's hard to believe there are people who don't want to look their horse in the eye until the very last moment and be there to let them walk to that moment with calmness and trust your time together was built up .
Even as you do it and you think your heart will burst it's what you do see it through to end.
That's what being committed to a horse means and what taking that decision means you see it through .
It's not about the bill you can sell stuff ,beg off family it's not that expensive to have a horse shot it about walking the talk right up to the moment .
I don't think I really grasped the responsibility of horse ownership until I had my first PTS when I was thirty ( my other where still alive or died in the field suddenly )I will never forget leading her ( on crutches with a broken hip ) to the spot .
I think that was the day I grew up.
		
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Rubbish, and totally unfair.

I've had three horses shot, and have stood with none of them. My anxiety, upset (sobbing) would have helped neither the horse nor the huntsman.  

Each horse has been presented calmly to the huntsman, and stood quietly and without stress up until the moment they were shot.

You want to stand there whilst they receive a bullet,  good for you. Clearly not everyone is 'grown up' enough to do that.


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## Goldenstar (27 October 2015)

amymay said:



			Rubbish, and totally unfair.

I've had three horses shot, and have stood with none of them. My anxiety, upset (sobbing) would have helped neither the horse nor the huntsman.  

Each horse has been presented calmly to the huntsman, and stood quietly and without stress up until the moment they were shot.

You want to stand there whilst they receive a bullet,  good for you. Clearly not everyone is 'grown up' enough to do that.
		
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Yes good for me it does not mean I feel it any less than more outwardly delicate horse owners .


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## YorksG (27 October 2015)

Goldenstar said:



			Yes good for me it does not mean I feel it any less than more outwardly delicate horse owners .
		
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Yet again I find myself agreeing with you, I do wish that people would not equate sentimentality with sensitivity.


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## Meredith (27 October 2015)

Everyone makes the best decision they can at the time. It is not my position to judge anyone in the circumstances of losing a horse. 
My friends sent me away when my beloved horse was PTS at home. We decided that I would say goodbye and leave. My horse would not be upset in her final moments by an hysterical sobbing owner and that she would calmly and unknowingly have her pain ended. That is one instance of my kind of caring, but it may not be the chosen route for others.


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## Leo Walker (27 October 2015)

flirtygerty said:



			Sorry but no-one can see what the future holds, I have four horses, 1 youngster, 2 oldies and an 11 yr old, worked hard for a decent wage and could afford my horses and lifestyle, got made redundant, went self employed as I couldn't see anyone employing a late middle-aged woman, when you don't have a regular income, savings disappear fast, 11 yr old now on loan, youngster up for sale, oldies are my problem as I couldn't afford any kind of pts just now, luckily they are in good health, my horses, my problem, but I never thought I would ever be in this position and my business is growing slowly, so there is a glimmer of hope, but I did consider suicide at one point with the mounting problems, so never think it can't happen to you
		
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My sister went through something similar. She had a sharp trak mare, beautifully bred (one of the Muschamp mares) and graded, who ended up barren and was broken to ride, at which point my sister took her on and adored her for a good 5 years. My sister was a full time carer to my grandparents and her OH was the bread winner. They split up, suddenly and over night. He left her with nothing. She went from having several horses, most of whom were rehomable and did get good homes, to being left with a sharp mare who wasnt really rideable and couldnt be bred from anymore. 

She really didn't have the money for PTS, she couldn't afford to buy food for her and her daughter most days. If you are really truly broke them a few hundred quid is beyond your means. I offered the money to PTS and she turned it down and rehomed her as a companion. We still don't speak to this day as I was so, so, soooooo furious with her! But thats beside the point. There are people who bad things happen to who find themselves without the money to eat who really cant find the few hundred quid to PTS. 

What would help massively, is charities offering to fund PTS. The money they spend on one small coloured cob colt could give lots of horses a kind ending. But it doesnt happen! They get funding from rehabbing rescues that have no real future, no one seems to want to donate to a PTS fund


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## Leo Walker (27 October 2015)

sorry, I missed out the important bit where the mare ran up thousands of pounds in vet bills to find out why she was an explosive lunatic. Turned out she had horrific kissing spines, so was never a viable option to rehome her as a riding horse


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## stormox (28 October 2015)

A PTS fund!!!! what next. You will have people queueing up to get their unrideable, lame ,horses theyr just fed up with, cant sell or whatever killed just because they cant be bothered to find homes or look after them themselves. Money to charities  should be used for 're-habbing rescues' -thats what we give  donations for.
(The banning of hunting is no help either as not that many years ago the hunts didnt charge for killing.)


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## Goldenstar (28 October 2015)

Before you buy a horse you need to have a plan .
And one of the things you need to be able to do is afford to have your horse PTS, PD whatever you want to call it.
You need to realise even if you have insurance this cost may be down to you .
Too many people get horses with airy fairy ideas you need concrete plans about how you will deal with bad luck .
If you keep your horse out all the time you need a plan for how you and the horse will cope if it's injured and has to be rested inside.
If you buy a very young horse you need a plan about how you going to afford to give it a good start to it's working life if you can't do that yourself .
Too many people buy horses with rosy plans to cope on the basis of every thing going according to a rosy best case scenario plan , it rarely goes well all the time .


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## Exploding Chestnuts (28 October 2015)

I think we are off topic, that s hho for you


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## Exploding Chestnuts (28 October 2015)

We all take risks in life, and things can go very wrong, latterly I bought horses who were sound, and not nutty, but that was after I had about 20 years experience, my first horses were unsound [vetted], nutty [I was an innocent] and I had a lot of v bad luck, with pretty much all of them them. Sh[[t happens.
I think no one should not take on  a horse because it is cheap, for most people the purchase cost is not much compared to keep costs.


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## turkana (28 October 2015)

FrankieCob said:



			My sister went through something similar. She had a sharp trak mare, beautifully bred (one of the Muschamp mares) and graded, who ended up barren and was broken to ride, at which point my sister took her on and adored her for a good 5 years. My sister was a full time carer to my grandparents and her OH was the bread winner. They split up, suddenly and over night. He left her with nothing. She went from having several horses, most of whom were rehomable and did get good homes, to being left with a sharp mare who wasnt really rideable and couldnt be bred from anymore. 

She really didn't have the money for PTS, she couldn't afford to buy food for her and her daughter most days. If you are really truly broke them a few hundred quid is beyond your means. I offered the money to PTS and she turned it down and rehomed her as a companion. We still don't speak to this day as I was so, so, soooooo furious with her! But thats beside the point. There are people who bad things happen to who find themselves without the money to eat who really cant find the few hundred quid to PTS. 

What would help massively, is charities offering to fund PTS. The money they spend on one small coloured cob colt could give lots of horses a kind ending. But it doesnt happen! They get funding from rehabbing rescues that have no real future, no one seems to want to donate to a PTS fund 

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I've been in a similar situation, although my OH didn't leave me but lost his job, so overnight our income was more than halved. I did have a few thousand in savings for a rainy day, which very quickly got used up keeping a roof over our heads.
It's all very well saying you should have a plan before buying a horse, I did have a plan but that went to pot when I had to use my savings on paying the mortgage.
Sadly my horse was fataliy injured in the field resulting in her being put down on humane grounds - I had to borrow the money to pay for it, as all my back up money had gone. 
I would donate to a PTS fund as I know what it is like to walk away from my much loved & dead horse thinking "how the hell am I going to pay for this?"


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## Pearlsasinger (28 October 2015)

Goldenstar said:



			Before you buy a horse you need to have a plan .
And one of the things you need to be able to do is afford to have your horse PTS, PD whatever you want to call it.
You need to realise even if you have insurance this cost may be down to you .
Too many people get horses with airy fairy ideas you need concrete plans about how you will deal with bad luck .
If you keep your horse out all the time you need a plan for how you and the horse will cope if it's injured and has to be rested inside.
If you buy a very young horse you need a plan about how you going to afford to give it a good start to it's working life if you can't do that yourself .
Too many people buy horses with rosy plans to cope on the basis of every thing going according to a rosy best case scenario plan , it rarely goes well all the time .
		
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I couldn't agree more!

And can we add to the list of plans, that you need to have a plan for where you will pts (whatever the method you choose) which will allow access to the removal vehicle - this is particularly relevant to those who buy their own land, otherwise 'living the dream' can easily turn into a nightmare.

Perhaps some people should grow up a bit more before they buy a horse, whether it be for themselves or for their children.  Do the squeamish amongst us leave relatives to die in the company of strangers, too?

I am a great proponent of keeping pets being a good way to teach children life skills and responsibility for others, for me, one of those responsibilities is keeping a lid on my own emotions until the appropriate time, which is *after* the end of life.


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## touchstone (28 October 2015)

I wholeheartedly agree that owners should have access to money for euthanasia, evn if it is just on a credit card.  

I have always budgeted for it as any horse, even fit, healthy young stock can colic or break a leg,and frankly if people aren't prepared for that then I would question whether they should be keeping a horse.

If funds are getting low then horses would be better off sold or pts before funding runs out completely.  Harsh and hard to do, but the horse's welfare is the most important thing.

I'd always pts at home,  using the more expensive vet, but all horse owners can join the national fallen stock scheme for free, which will give a list of local services and costs;it also gives a bit of leeway in being able to pay the following month instead of immediately.


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## Stockers (28 October 2015)

touchstone said:



			I wholeheartedly agree that owners should have access to money for euthanasia, evn if it is just on a credit card.  

I have always budgeted for it as any horse, even fit, healthy young stock can colic or break a leg,and frankly if people aren't prepared for that then I would question whether they should be keeping a horse.
		
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Exactly - if your horse breaks a limb it needs to be destroyed. I sincerely hope no one would delay calling in the approproate parties to do this on ground of money.


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## MagicMelon (28 October 2015)

Stockers said:



			Exactly - if your horse breaks a limb it needs to be destroyed. I sincerely hope no one would delay calling in the approproate parties to do this on ground of money.
		
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This. I've only just paid off a big vets bill for eventually euthanising a pony of mine a few months ago, you just have to find the money in circumstances like this. I'd never send a horse to the meat man, mine don't even leave the premises once they're dead (I have mine buried in their field). I owe it to my horse to have them PTS in the quietest, most dignified way possible which would always be at home. I find it so sad that so many horses have such an uncaring end to their lives. If I were a dealer, I'd think nothing of buying off the meat man if it means I'm helping save them, my problem would be that I couldn't choose - I'd want to buy them all.


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## flirtygerty (28 October 2015)

Pearlsasinger said:



			flirtygerty;
I am sorry but there should be an untouchable fund of some kind, whether that be a credit card, or separate bank account, or sock under the mattress, to cater for the unexpected/unthinkable happening.

And at the risk of sounding unfeeling; I am not sure how your suicide would have helped your horses.  However I am glad that you found a way forward and hope that your business grows successfully.

And just for the record, I was made redundant in my 40s, at no point were the horses not catered for.
		
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My horse are catered for, but once I had the farrier do all four at the same time, now trimming is staggered, as is worming, it was only my horses and recently disabled OH that kept me going, I am a strong person, but not superwoman and being unemployed at 56 is no laughing matter, I wouldn't employ someone that age, so I made my own job, my point was, don't say you should cover all eventualities, because you can't, in 2 yrs I spent £60.000 keeping my lifestyle and new business going


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## ycbm (29 October 2015)

Goldenstar said:



			While experience tells me it's not the case I just find it's hard to believe there are people who don't want to look their horse in the eye until the very last moment and be there to let them walk to that moment with calmness and trust your time together was built up .
Even as you do it and you think your heart will burst it's what you do see it through to end.
That's what being committed to a horse means and what taking that decision means you see it through .

It's not about the bill you can sell stuff ,beg off family it's not that expensive to have a horse shot it about walking the talk right up to the moment .
.
		
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The horse does not know what is about to happen. Being walked to the dropping point by someone else is no different from being turned out by someone else.


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## Archangel (29 October 2015)

flirtygerty said:



			being unemployed at 56 is no laughing matter, I wouldn't employ someone that age,
		
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Off topic but just out of interest why wouldn't you employ someone of 56?  Looking back at the last 5 people employed by us they were 30, 32, 61, 63 and 65.


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## stormox (29 October 2015)

Surely everyone who has a horse realises there are going to be veterinary costs?  These must be factored in when you first ask yourself 'can I afford this horse'? In my opinion, euthanasia comes under the heading of 'veterinary' and people should be aware of how much keeping a horse- vet, farrier, diesel to yard or for towing horse around, worming, dentist et al costs......... the price of  the horse itself is minute in comparison. And if it looks like your circumstances might change, SELL the horse BEFORE you cant afford to keep it!


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## ester (29 October 2015)

Do you think people always get notice of a change in circumstances? Or that horses are always saleable? - and given the latter would you PTS just in case it looks like your circumstances might change? Given the issues with my employer over the last 12 months poor old Frank would have been PTS numerous times! 

(Though if it got to that point I would ask someone else to pay for me before he ever left the yard!)


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## Pearlsasinger (29 October 2015)

ester said:



			(Though if it got to that point I would ask someone else to pay for me before he ever left the yard!)
		
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Exactly!  You have a plan!  Which is just what those of us who have said that you should have a contingency for the unexpected were advocating.


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## honetpot (29 October 2015)

justabob said:



			Poor meat men, they always get a hard time. They deal with the horses that people don't really care about, they provide a service. A service with no strings attached, no false promises, no mention of rescuing, they just sent them to the knackers. If, you care, you will stand by your old, lame, or dangerous horse. Hold it and stand by it. For the weak, feeble and uncaring there is always the meat man, and unfortunately so many can not take on that final decision. It should never be about cost, because if you DO care you just get on and do it. Real horsemen/women do.
		
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 I have known two meat men, one has just died aged 92. He told me when they brought in tractors they literally took horses out of harness off the field and loaded them on to the trains to go for slaughter.
  Its recycling at its basic. When there is no money about his son would constantly be rung by people with ponies they had problems with either through lack of money or the pony was unsuitable for the child and they needed to get rid of it and wanted some money. So  he would buy them at a knock down price because he basically didn't want small ponies as there is little profit in them He would also buy at sales, put them of cheap grazing, if anyone wanted one he would sell it on, otherwise like cattle they went when it was time.
 A lot of TBs out of training that do not sell at auction go straight to slaughter, I think that far better than then doing the rounds on FB. There are some far cheaper options for euthanasia if you shop around it rather that a lot of people would rather not face the realities of that problem, and sell it on hoping it will end up in a 'nice home', no horse dealer is going to say anything else.


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## Orangehorse (29 October 2015)

honetpot said:



			I have known two meat men, one has just died aged 92. He told me when they brought in tractors they literally took horses out of harness off the field and loaded them on to the trains to go for slaughter.
  Its recycling at its basic. When there is no money about his son would constantly be rung by people with ponies they had problems with either through lack of money or the pony was unsuitable for the child and they needed to get rid of it and wanted some money. So  he would buy them at a knock down price because he basically didn't want small ponies as there is little profit in them He would also buy at sales, put them of cheap grazing, if anyone wanted one he would sell it on, otherwise like cattle they went when it was time.
 A lot of TBs out of training that do not sell at auction go straight to slaughter, I think that far better than then doing the rounds on FB. There are some far cheaper options for euthanasia if you shop around it rather that a lot of people would rather not face the realities of that problem, and sell it on hoping it will end up in a 'nice home', no horse dealer is going to say anything else.
		
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Too right about the farm horses.  They just went off in lorry loads.  Any dealer provides a service, of taking away the unloved/unwanted which is unpalatable but we are finding what the alternative, with stories of dead horses being dumped.


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## twiggy2 (29 October 2015)

Goldenstar said:



			Yes good for me it does not mean I feel it any less than more outwardly delicate horse owners .
		
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I agree with this but accepting that you are no in control enough of your emotions to be of any assistance to the horse or the huntsman/vet is a tough decision for people to make, I have taken dogs to the vets on their final visit in place of the owners because of the owners being distraught and have been able to be of more use because I was calm and not emotionally wrecked. I witness small animal euthanasia on an almost daily basis and I wish more people did not feel that they have to be present through some kind of misplace guilt/loyalty-I held all 3 of my dogs this year but realise I am very fortunate to put my emotions to oneside till the deed is done and I can say hand on heart that I was the right person to hold each and every one of them.
As long as the act is carried out in a calm and considerate manner I honestly think very few horses give two hoots as to who is at the end of the lead rope when they go especially in the case of shooting as they usually have their head in a bucket of feed whilst the deed is done.


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## flirtygerty (29 October 2015)

Archangel said:



			Off topic but just out of interest why wouldn't you employ someone of 56?  Looking back at the last 5 people employed by us they were 30, 32, 61, 63 and 65.
		
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Simply because most people that age have health issues, in my case arthritis, most days Tumeric keeps it manageable, but there are days when my dodgy knee won't work, or my hip gives out or my hands are weak, I agree older people have a better work ethic, but I have seen older people drag themselves to work, when they should be at home, I don't have a choice, if I don't work I have no income apart from a small private pension, which wouldn't cover the cost of the horses, never mind living


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## Exploding Chestnuts (30 October 2015)

I had no health issues till I was 64, I am now 69 and healthier than when 64. I can't do a day's work like I did when I was 22/34/44, but i can still do more than any "staff" I have employed, age 15. 21, 32, 51, in fact when I was on crutches and had to get a driver I was out of the van and waiting for the 51yo to join me, his job was to get my lawn mower on to the grass, and so on, in theory I would have done nothing, but he was so slow we would not have got through the day's work if I had not done some of it.
When I worked wth horses I had four or five horses to do, I mean properly, I take more time with my own ponies, but they are my hobby and I have nothing else to do, so I might spend an hour with one pony, but I could do two in that time if I chose.


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## Goldenstar (30 October 2015)

ycbm said:



			The horse does not know what is about to happen. Being walked to the dropping point by someone else is no different from being turned out by someone else.[/QUOTE

Your horse may be used to be handled by lots of strangers mine are not that makes it my job .
		
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## ycbm (30 October 2015)

Goldenstar said:
			
		


			Your horse may be used to be handled by lots of strangers mine are not that makes it my job .
		
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We all occasionally need our horses to be handled by people they don't know as well as us. I'm sure your own horses are happy to be turned out by a number of different people. The point is, the horse is completely unaware that it is about to be killed, and it's no more upset about being led there by one of  those people than you. If it makes you feel good to do it yourself, then that's great. But that's no reason to criticise other people because they thought they would upset their horses if they were there. I also think you may be wrong about how much horses can sense. You may think you are hiding it from them really well, but I couldn't be that certain myself.


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## Equine_Dream (30 October 2015)

Golden star you really are coming across as a very judgemental person. Whilst I do agree with you that a vital part of owning a horse is being able to budget for the essentials and one of those is emergency veterinary treatment and euthanasia, I do not agree with your attitude towards owners being present when their horse is PTS. It doesnt make you a better owner just because you were able to stay with them. It just means you are in control of your emotions. 
I have never had to deal with loosing a horse but I know I will need to one day. I dont think I could stand there and watch a bullet put in my beautiful horse's heads. Even the thought makes my blood run cold. Me being there would serve no better purpose other than my distress affecting my horses. I will stay with them until the last possible moment but when the deed is done I will ask a friend or my partner to stay with them. I dont think that makes me a bad owner.


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## touchstone (30 October 2015)

I stay with mine for euthanasia, but if I couldn't cope without becoming distressed then I'd ask someone else to be there as long as the owner is certain that the deed has been done then that is what matters.  

There must be nothing worse for the horse or vet than to have an owner sobbing hysterically into a horses mane while trying to keep things as normal and calm as possible,


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## Nudibranch (30 October 2015)

Surely the main point is that they are pts at home in familiar surroundings rather, rather than the technicalities of who actually stands with them at the end. Unless they are injected, you wont actually be allowed to "hold" them anyway. The vet or knacker man will take the rope,  and in the case of the vet will ask you to stand behind him in case the bullet goes astray.
That is certainly my experience, of which I have unfortunate had plenty.


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## Goldenstar (30 October 2015)

ycbm said:



			We all occasionally need our horses to be handled by people they don't know as well as us. I'm sure your own horses are happy to be turned out by a number of different people. The point is, the horse is completely unaware that it is about to be killed, and it's no more upset about being led there by one of  those people than you. If it makes you feel good to do it yourself, then that's great. But that's no reason to criticise other people because they thought they would upset their horses if they were there. I also think you may be wrong about how much horses can sense. You may think you are hiding it from them really well, but I couldn't be that certain myself.
		
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I am allowed to hold the view that IMO it's the owners job to take responsibility for taking the desision to order the death of their own horse by being there and see the desision you have taken through to the very end .
I know I hide it well ,you can hide your feeling from horses very very easily if your body language is under control.

However I have seen a lot and I mean a lot horses shot and injected because it used to be a almost weekly occurrence  at one time .
For me the time I am upset is when I make the desision by the time the day comes I am resigned to the desision I have made and ready to face the reality of that choice .
The one time we PTS one of mine on the day something happened  I was calm and dealing with it but felt terrible after wards , shocked I think.

It's my view it's my duty to be there .


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## gunnergundog (30 October 2015)

Nudibranch said:



			Unless they are injected, you wont actually be allowed to "hold" them anyway. The vet or knacker man will take the rope,  and in the case of the vet will ask you to stand behind him in case the bullet goes astray.
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Not so at all.....both vet and hunt allow me to hold my own horses whilst they are shot.


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## Nudibranch (30 October 2015)

Mine certainly won't.


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## Goldenstar (30 October 2015)

Nudibranch said:



			Mine certainly won't.
		
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Mine certainly do vet and hunt you lead the horse to the spot 
Stand behind the vet or whoever they take the rope and I shut my eyes and talk to the horse the whole time and then it's over .


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## stormox (30 October 2015)

Nudibranch, they dont use a bullet, surely? When Ive seen horses shot theyve used a humane killer with a captive bolt.


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## Goldenstar (30 October 2015)

stormox said:



			Nudibranch, they dont use a bullet, surely? When Ive seen horses shot theyve used a humane killer with a captive bolt.
		
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Both my vet and our hunt use a bullet .


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## Pearlsasinger (30 October 2015)

Goldenstar said:



			I am allowed to hold the view that IMO it's the owners job to take responsibility for taking the desision to order the death of their own horse by being there and see the desision you have taken through to the very end .
I know I hide it well ,you can hide your feeling from horses very very easily if your body language is under control.

However I have seen a lot and I mean a lot horses shot and injected because it used to be a almost weekly occurrence  at one time .
For me the time I am upset is when I make the desision by the time the day comes I am resigned to the desision I have made and ready to face the reality of that choice .
The one time we PTS one of mine on the day something happened  I was calm and dealing with it but felt terrible after wards , shocked I think.

It's my view it's my duty to be there .
		
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I agree with GS and have always been there with my horses, of which there have been several, whenever they have been pts.  I also always accompany small animals whenever necessary.  

However in my first post on the subject, I acknowledged that someone the horse knows well would be a suitable person to hold the horse at for pts home.  I responded with my view that the horse's owner is the best person to be there in answer to a poster who is usually very forthright in her judgements of those who don't do things her way, who was, in her usual way, verging on rude in her disagreement with GS's view. 

If someone feels that they cannot support their horse in its last moments, that is between them and their conscience but I do wish that those who cannot control themselves would not pretend that that makes them more 'feeling'  than those of us who can.  It doesn't.

I do know that our local equine crem has taken to asking those customers whom they don't know well to leave the horse with them in its familiar surroundings because on one memorable occasion, an owner threw herself in hysterics onto the body as it was being winched onto the vehicle.  Personally, I prefer not to witness that part of the process and know that it makes no difference to thehorse by that stage.


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## milliepops (30 October 2015)

Nudibranch said:



			Surely the main point is that they are pts at home in familiar surroundings rather, rather than the technicalities of who actually stands with them at the end. 
.
		
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I think this is the most important thing for me too. I have no idea whether I'll be able to stay with Millie at the end without losing control. I haven't ever felt this strongly bonded to a horse before. I know my best friend would stand in for me if I couldn't do it.
I've been holder & present for countless other horses though, for friends, and in my old job.  It almost felt like a privilege to be the one to be there at their last moment.

I was never allowed to hold for the knacker, and vets have always asked for space should the horse not fall as intended.


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## SpringArising (30 October 2015)

Pearlsasinger said:



			Hear, hear!

And any-one who doesn't do that should be ashamed of themselves; no matter how much they have previously spent on vet bills.
		
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justabob said:



			You deal with it, thinking of suicide, you need a kick up the backside! That is why we need the meat man.............for the feeble.
		
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Charming. Shame you don't reserve some of the compassion you have for animals for people. 



Goldenstar said:



			While experience tells me it's not the case I just find it's hard to believe there are people who don't want to look their horse in the eye until the very last moment and be there to let them walk to that moment with calmness and trust your time together was built up .
Even as you do it and you think your heart will burst it's what you do see it through to end.
That's what being committed to a horse means and what taking that decision means you see it through .
		
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Why does someone need to watch the horse die to have made the right decision? The ONLY thing the owner needs to do is make the decision to have the horse put down. The rest is irrelevant. Do you really think the horse cares who's holding the rope? If your horses can't deal with being led by someone else then there's a big flaw in their training.



Pearlsasinger said:



			Do the squeamish amongst us leave relatives to die in the company of strangers, too?.
		
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Yeah, I mean personally I don't know anyone who's died in a care home or hospital :rolleyes3:	



Goldenstar said:



			I know I hide it well ,you can hide your feeling from horses very very easily if your body language is under control.
		
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Rubbish. You don't think horses can pick up on how we're feeling?


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## Equine_Dream (30 October 2015)

If someone feels that they cannot support their horse in its last moments, that is between them and their conscience but I do wish that those who cannot control themselves would not pretend that that makes them more 'feeling' than those of us who can. It doesn't.
		
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Equally I wish those, who say its wrong for an owner not to watch their horse die, would stop pretending that they are "better" owners than the rest of us. They are not.
The most important thing is that the horse is PTS in a safe familiar environment and in the most humane and dignified way possible. 
I really hope when I have to face that decision I dont need to deal with anyone like some of you judgemental lot on this thread.


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## Pearlsasinger (30 October 2015)

SpringArising said:



			Charming. Shame you don't reserve some of the compassion you have for animals for people. 


_I would find that incredibly rude but can only imagine that you don't go into The Club House.  I would be offended except that I don't worry about the opinions of strangers._





Yeah, I mean personally I don't know anyone who's died in a care home or hospital :rolleyes3:

_I have no idea what you meant by that but can assure you that I know from personal experience that it is perfectly possible to stay with a dying relative in hospital or 'care home'._


_There are occasions when we should ALL put our sensitivities aside and grow up enough to face our responsibilities._

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## Equine_Dream (30 October 2015)

Pearlsasinger said:





SpringArising said:



			Charming. Shame you don't reserve some of the compassion you have for animals for people. 


_I would find that incredibly rude but can only imagine that you don't go into The Club House.  I would be offended except that I don't worry about the opinions of strangers._





Yeah, I mean personally I don't know anyone who's died in a care home or hospital :rolleyes3:

_I have no idea what you meant by that but can assure you that I know from personal experience that it is perfectly possible to stay with a dying relative in hospital or 'care home'._


_There are occasions when we should ALL put our sensitivities aside and grow up enough to face our responsibilities._

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So even though an owner has cared loved and done everything possible for their horse, had veterinary treatment, made the brave but hardest decision to let their horse go, and made sure its done in a humane and dignified manner: all that goes straight out of the window when they can not watch their horse die. I must be a very childish irresponsible owner then. Sorry but what utter rubbish.
		
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## SpringArising (30 October 2015)

Pearlsasinger said:



			There are occasions when we should ALL put our sensitivities aside and grow up enough to face our responsibilities
		
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That's done the moment the owner decides to call it a day for the horse. I just don't understand why you and GS feel the owner MUST see the bullet go into the horse's head in order to be responsible and 'grown up'. Being grown up is doing what's best for both you and the horse.


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## touchstone (30 October 2015)

Just thinking about the Bhs friends at the end scene too, they also offer to stay  with the horse whilst it is done, so they mustn't think it's a bad idea.

I've stayed with plenty of horses that I didn't own for the vet and knackerman, I found the emotional detachment to be better all round.


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## YorksG (30 October 2015)

Staying, or leaving the horse with a trusted other is a world away from the premis in the OP, where this much loved horse was sent to the "meat man", although we have now found out that the friend did not commit the offence of sending a horse which should have been signed out of the food chain for meat.


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## touchstone (30 October 2015)

YorksG said:



			Staying, or leaving the horse with a trusted other is a world away from the premis in the OP, where this much loved horse was sent to the "meat man", although we have now found out that the friend did not commit the offence of sending a horse which should have been signed out of the food chain for meat.
		
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That's very true.


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## gunnergundog (30 October 2015)

I know that this is moving things on a tad...the latter part of this thread, as mentioned above, has focussed on whether the owner is happy or not to stay with their horse during a planned euthanasia......but I would be interested to know how people would react in the following scenario.

This isn't (to me) an entirely hypothetical situation, but just for a moment imagine that you are out on your own in the middle of nowhere on your dearly beloved 18 year old that you have owned for 14 years.  Horse is now just a happy hacker due to arthritis.  

Without going into all the details, horse suffers catastrophic injuries and is majorly distressed; it is clear to you (experienced owner) that there is no other route other than euthanasia (we are talking high swinging front limb, due to break, arterial bleed, plus soft tissue damage lower down the limb.  (Trust me, no need to call a vet, horse can't be moved, but is seriously distressed.)  You happen to be at the end of the drive to the hunt kennels; someone is there who could shoot your horse and put it out of its misery within minutes.  What would you do?


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## milliepops (30 October 2015)

Yell or run up the drive to attract attention and get the horse shot. No question.
In that case, I think the adrenlin would carry me through without doubt no matter how great the attachment to the horse. I'm one of those good in a crisis people


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## Equine_Dream (30 October 2015)

milliepops said:



			Yell or run up the drive to attract attention and get the horse shot. No question.
)
		
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This. There is no other choice in this case. Its an emergency situation so totally different to a planned euthanasia.


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## Nudibranch (30 October 2015)

When the vet massively messed up the injection for my old mare, I did indeed run up the road to the kennels with that very aim, as the vet had over an hour's return journey to fetch his gun. Sadly nobody was in.

(I had requested the gun when I made the appointment, and allowed the vet to change my mind about injecting when he arrived without it, but that is another story.)


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## gunnergundog (30 October 2015)

Equine_Dream said:



			This. There is no other choice in this case. Its an emergency situation so totally different to a planned euthanasia.
		
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OK...so, treading carefully here and also playing devils advocate...if you choose in this circumstance to stay with your horse, why not in the planned scenario?  (Not picking at you personally EquineDream)  but just trying to ascertain if adrenaline is the key differentiator?  Also, if people (generalising here!) can/are prepared to stay with their horse in one circumstance then why not in another?


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## hibshobby (30 October 2015)

I did, a late-teens ex-possibly polo pony, ex-possibly trekking pony but never really knew. I had 11 fantastic years hacking and hunting a 15.2 cobby mare who was my horse of a lifetime. She taught me loads and I'd like to think she had a lovely life doing what it turned out she loved to do.
I'm sure many aren't as lucky as she and I were, but don't write them off - sometimes it works.


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## The Fuzzy Furry (30 October 2015)

Nudibranch said:



			Surely the main point is that they are pts at home in familiar surroundings rather, rather than the technicalities of who actually stands with them at the end. Unless they are injected, you wont actually be allowed to "hold" them anyway. The vet or knacker man will take the rope,  and in the case of the vet will ask you to stand behind him in case the bullet goes astray.
That is certainly my experience, of which I have unfortunate had plenty.
		
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Sorry, but i have held a few for others this year as also in past years, plus also holding my wonderful cob on Monday at home in the sunshine 
. 
The only thing now is that you have to be on the off side as the new up to date gun, expels shell to the right


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## Nudibranch (30 October 2015)

And indeed, my experience is that both the knackerman and vet round here take the rope,  and the vet insists I stand behind him. That's simply factual information and whatever goes on elsewhere doesn't change it!


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## Equine_Dream (30 October 2015)

gunnergundog said:



			OK...so, treading carefully here and also playing devils advocate...if you choose in this circumstance to stay with your horse, why not in the planned scenario?  (Not picking at you personally EquineDream)  but just trying to ascertain if adrenaline is the key differentiator?  Also, if people (generalising here!) can/are prepared to stay with their horse in one circumstance then why not in another?
		
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Well the key here is these circumstances are that it is an emergency. There isnt any other choice, so regardless whether me being there visably distressed caused greater upset to my horse or not: it still has to be done. 

I think people are getting confused with my reasoning. The reason I dont want to watch my horse die isnt to protect myself. Its because I want it to be as stress free for my horse as possible and I know I couldnt control my emotions and would be a mess which in turn may cause my horse to become distressed. So I genuinely think its better if im not present when the actual deed is done. If there was no other option however then I would have to do it of course.


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## chillipup (30 October 2015)

Run like crazy to hunt kennels yelling for help and get hunt to come back and shoot it. Whilst hunt person collects gun, return to horse. If horse is down already but struggling to get up, sit on neck to help keep down. If horse still upright, just try to lessen distress til help arrives.

I once had to wait with a Tb horse that had torn it's hind foot off below fetlock. It was just barely attached. Horse was not distressed, just stood there, I suspect due to having already lost a lot of blood through arterial bleed. I sang quietly to it while waiting 30 mins for vet to arrive to shoot it. It was a very surreal time.

It wasn't my horse & I have held others whilst shot. I have no problem with a sobbing/distressed owner not wanting to be present as this can cause distress in the animal.


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## gunnergundog (30 October 2015)

Nudibranch said:



			And indeed, my experience is that both the knackerman and vet round here take the rope,  and the vet insists I stand behind him. That's simply factual information and whatever goes on elsewhere doesn't change it!
		
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No...and it doesn't change what goes on here in my sphere either.  I hold the horse and the rope with a bucket of feed; bullet is shot, horse drops and then I walk away.. End of.  Last one was shot by vet less than a month ago..  Many others (sadly) shot by different hunts/ huntsmen, so not a one off by any means.  

Perhaps it comes down to the professional doing the deed and their assessment of the individual wanting to hold the end of the rope...as is, are they likely to be a hindrance/help/neutral to the deed? 

Above is also simple factual information.  

Maybe people reading this  and about to embark on similar scenario need to make a few phone calls to ascertain the situation in their environs.


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## ycbm (30 October 2015)

Equine_Dream said:



			Well the key here is these circumstances are that it is an emergency. There isnt any other choice, so regardless whether me being there visably distressed caused greater upset to my horse or not: it still has to be done. 

I think people are getting confused with my reasoning. The reason I dont want to watch my horse die isnt to protect myself. Its because I want it to be as stress free for my horse as possible and I know I couldnt control my emotions and would be a mess which in turn may cause my horse to become distressed. So I genuinely think its better if im not present when the actual deed is done. If there was no other option however then I would have to do it of course.
		
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I understand your reasoning completely, and of course I agree with you. And I agree with you in spite of being just like the people who are criticising the people who don't stay. I am able to be completely unemotional until it's over.  

I've held horses for friends and would not dream of looking down on them for needing me to do it. I stayed with all mine except two. The first was when I was young, he was my first horse, and I fell to pieces. The other was a couple of years ago and he was an exceptionally sensitive horse emotionally. I didn't think I could fool  him for one second, so I let him go with my OH. He was as happy as Larry till he dropped.

There's no doubt, too, that the more you do the easier it gets.


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## The Fuzzy Furry (30 October 2015)

It never gets any easier ycbm


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## gunnergundog (30 October 2015)

Equine_Dream said:



			Well the key here is these circumstances are that it is an emergency. There isnt any other choice, so regardless whether me being there visably distressed caused greater upset to my horse or not: it still has to be done. 

I think people are getting confused with my reasoning. The reason I dont want to watch my horse die isnt to protect myself. Its because I want it to be as stress free for my horse as possible and I know I ckouldnt control my emotions and would be a mess which in turn may cause my horse to become distressed. So I genuinely think its better if im not present when the actual deed is done. If there was no other option however then I would have to do it of course.
		
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Equine dream....in this scenario though your horse is already distressed due to the physical injury;  so would you actually be visibly distressed yourself or would you hold it  together for the sake of your horse though in order to limit his/her further distress?


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## Equine_Dream (30 October 2015)

ycbm said:



			I understand your reasoning completely, and of course I agree with you. And I agree with you in spite of being just like the people who are criticising the people who don't stay. I am able to be completely unemotional until it's over.  

I've held horses for friends and would not dream of looking down on them for needing me to do it. I stayed with all mine except two. The first was when I was young, he was my first horse, and I fell to pieces. The other was a couple of years ago and he was an exceptionally sensitive horse emotionally. I didn't think I could fool  him for one second, so I let him go with my OH. He was as happy as Larry till he dropped.

There's no doubt, too, that the more you do the easier it gets.
		
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Thank you. I do admire you for being able to remain cool and calm. I wish I felt I could so that I could stay until the very end but I know myself better.


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## Equine_Dream (30 October 2015)

gunnergundog said:



			Equine dream....in this scenario though your horse is already distressed due to the physical injury;  so would you actually be visibly distressed yourself or would you hold it  together for the sake of your horse though in order to limit his/her further distress?
		
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Its hard to say but as another poster said I think adrenalin would kick in and it would just be about putting the poor thing out of its misery. I dont think id be able to realise my own emotion until afterwards. Like I said though it would be entirely different in a planned euthanasia as it would be a different case scenario.


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## be positive (30 October 2015)

gunnergundog said:



			Equine dream....in this scenario though your horse is already distressed due to the physical injury;  so would you actually be visibly distressed yourself or would you hold it  together for the sake of your horse though in order to limit his/her further distress?
		
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Without being put into this type of situation you can never know how you will react, if you are distressed and it shows does it really matter once the professional is there to take control, and they will take over if you are visibly upset, at the end of the day you do what you can at any given time and most vets/ huntsmen are experienced enough to know to take over if required. 

I have held more than I want to think about, a few planned a few more emergency but fortunately never a serious injury, I have normally remained totally calm and able to stay fairly detached, it does not get easier but having seen the first one it does become less of a shock the next time, I would not hold it against anyone who asked a friend to be there, I have done this for a livery and would do so for anyone if they felt it best, I think that most horses will not be bothered who holds them as long as the last moments are as peaceful as possible.


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## gunnergundog (30 October 2015)

Equine_Dream said:



			Its hard to say but as another poster said I think adrenalin would kick in and it would just be about putting the poor thing out of its misery. I dont think id be able to realise my own emotion until afterwards. Like I said though it would be entirely different in a planned euthanasia as it would be a different case scenario.
		
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Thank you for your responses Equine Dream;  I think I will bow out now as I suspect my further questioning will take you to places that are uncomfortable and I have no intention of causing distress/angst to anyone.


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## gunnergundog (30 October 2015)

be positive said:



			Without being put into this type of situation you can never know how you will reactI .
		
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I totally agree, but it is something that maybe some people should think about.  Hopefully it never happens, but if you are prepared for/have thought through the worst case scenario then it is often easier if it does ever happen.


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## Pearlsasinger (30 October 2015)

The Fuzzy Furry said:



			It never gets any easier ycbm 

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No, it doesn't but at least you know what to expect.

I wonder if those who would feel able to stay with the injured horse in gunnergundog's scenario would then stay with subsequent horses in a planned pts because they had done it once and knwew what was going to happen.

We certainly had a baptism of fire.  Our first horse was pts after a field accident.  Sister dealt with the horse and initial vet visit, supported by the farmer whose field he lived in.  Then after a few hours waiting to see if he recovered at all we both were present for the 2nd vet visit and the knackerman's vist to shoot him.  We were extremely grateful to the farmer who cleaned up afterwards, sending us home.
None of the subsequent pts, planned or otherwise has been anywhere near as traumatic.


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## ycbm (30 October 2015)

Equine_Dream said:



			Thank you. I do admire you for being able to remain cool and calm. I wish I felt I could so that I could stay until the very end but I know myself better.
		
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There is nothing to be admired or not admired about this. People are built differently and have different ways of dealing with things.


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## EquiEquestrian556 (30 October 2015)

ycbm said:



			There is nothing to be admired or not admired about this. People are built differently and have different ways of dealing with things.
		
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Hear hear!


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## Amymay (30 October 2015)

Pearlsasinger said:



			Do the squeamish amongst us leave relatives to die in the company of strangers, too?
		
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Funnily enough, no. I sat and held my mothers hand as she died.


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## Pearlsasinger (30 October 2015)

I'm sorry for your loss, amymay.

And a genuine question, so what is the difference?  What makes it possible for you to stay with your mother but not with your horse?  I ask because I have done both and would not have said that it is easier to stay with a person than with a horse.


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## twiggy2 (30 October 2015)

Pearlsasinger said:



			I'm sorry for your loss, amymay.

And a genuine question, so what is the difference?  What makes it possible for you to stay with your mother but not with your horse?  I ask because I have done both and would not have said that it is easier to stay with a person than with a horse.
		
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I sat with my Nan as she passed away-stroking her hair and speaking to her telling her it was OK to go, I have held our dogs but could not hold my daughters horse and will not hold my own when the time comes. My Nan was human that puts her in a different league for me, I had known her all my life and she had been a massive part of my life. Our dogs live indoors and would have been stressed being handled by someone they did not know-they are part of our family.
My daughters horse was a devastating shock and there was no time to prepare so we were emotionally distraught-also horses are not part of the family (we don't all like horses), we don't live with them and they are regularly handled by other trusted people, IMO they do not commonly form such close bonds with humans as dogs and that may in part be due to the fact the commonly change owners more often and do not live with us.
I was able to be prepared emotionally for my Nan and the dogs and maybe with my own mare I will feel OK to be there but as long as it is done when needed with as little stress to the horse as possible I really don't understand why anyone feels they have the right to judge anyone else on wether they are present or not.


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## ycbm (30 October 2015)

Pearlsasinger said:



			And a genuine question, so what is the difference?  What makes it possible for you to stay with your mother but not with your horse?  I ask because I have done both and would not have said that it is easier to stay with a person than with a horse.
		
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Your mother knows she is dying. It matters to your mother that people who are close to her emotionally are close to her physically. Your horse does not know he is about to die. Your horse does not care any more than he cares who gives him his food as long as someone does.

It isn't your choice that your mother is dying. It's your choice that your horse is dying.

You can get upset while your mother is dying and she will understand. Your horse will not understand, just be upset that you are upset.

I'm sure there are more.


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## Equine_Dream (30 October 2015)

ycbm said:



			There is nothing to be admired or not admired about this. People are built differently and have different ways of dealing with things.
		
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Very true, but still given the choice I would stay with my horses but as you say we are all different and I dont think either is way is the "right" way to deal with it. At the end of the day in such a horrible situation we must do what we feel best by our horses.


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## Nudibranch (30 October 2015)

gunnergundog said:



			Perhaps it comes down to the professional doing the deed and their assessment of the individual wanting to hold the end of the rope...as is, are they likely to be a hindrance/help/neutral to the deed? 
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Urgh, how patronising. 
It matters not one jot who stands with the horse so long as the animal is comforted, and those who are attempting to suggest they are somehow superior for doing so are both misguided, and unhelpful to those posters who have not had to deal with such situations as yet.

For what it is worth, which is little I suspect,  I have been the one at the end for each of my horses and never been a "hindrance" to the person doing the deed. But that was never my point.


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## Pearlsasinger (30 October 2015)

ycbm said:



			Your mother knows she is dying. It matters to your mother that people who are close to her emotionally are close to her physically. Your horse does not know he is about to die. Your horse does not care any more than he cares who gives him his food as long as someone does.

It isn't your choice that your mother is dying. It's your choice that your horse is dying.

You can get upset while your mother is dying and she will understand. Your horse will not understand, just be upset that you are upset.

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Actually very little of that is true in my case, although I have indeed stayed at my mother's bedside while she was dying. 
 I have had horses pts as a planned event because of old age or illness and in various emergencies and stayed with them all, so that does not answer my question.  
In fact I have found it harder to stay at hospital bedsides and maintain my composure, which I felt it was necessary to do, than to stay with my horses.


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## maisie06 (30 October 2015)

I have a PTS fund for mine. They will go at home when the time comes, it's one thing I have made sure is in place. One horrific story I know of is an owner who had a horse that was in not too good of a state of health and recieved little in the way of care, they used to turn up, chuck some hay over the fence if it was lucky and go, horse was found down in the field in a very bad way, owner was contacted but didn't show up, horse died just as YO was calling a vet, owner never heard from again - just left the body of the poor animal for the YO to dispose of - how awful is that? I couldn't do that to one of mine. YO even told they would have stood the cost of  vet and disposal and taken installments....so no excuse.


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## muckypony (31 October 2015)

Wow, some of these posts are so misguided and actually quite hurtful. 

I couldn't be with my first pony at the end, I wanted to be. I had it planned - she would be at home and I would be with her. But it didn't happen like that. She was already at the vets, why bring her home? I was advised by so many people not to be there. Friends who had been with their horses, and vets. I was advised not to because they all knew how it would taint my memories of her forever. That doesn't mean I'm selfish, or irresponsible, or that I don't deserve to have horses. It means that I couldn't see that. I didn't need to and still to this day I am glad I didn't see it. I have so many wonderful memories of my beautiful pony. 

Do I ever wonder what happened? Of course I do. I feel awful that I wasn't there with her at the very end. But I know I made right choice for us both. I will never want to see any of mine pts. I will never send them away and I will always make sure it is done properly. If I have to be there I will, but if I don't then I won't. 

Some of these posts are just self righteous and unnecessary. You are making people feel bad for something that they probably already feel awful about. Just because you can stay with your horses til the end, doesn't mean that anyone who can't is a bad person or a bad owner.


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## honetpot (31 October 2015)

muckypony said:



			Wow, some of these posts are so misguided and actually quite hurtful. 

I couldn't be with my first pony at the end, I wanted to be. I had it planned - she would be at home and I would be with her. But it didn't happen like that. She was already at the vets, why bring her home? I was advised by so many people not to be there. Friends who had been with their horses, and vets. I was advised not to because they all knew how it would taint my memories of her forever. That doesn't mean I'm selfish, or irresponsible, or that I don't deserve to have horses. It means that I couldn't see that. I didn't need to and still to this day I am glad I didn't see it. I have so many wonderful memories of my beautiful pony. 

Do I ever wonder what happened? Of course I do. I feel awful that I wasn't there with her at the very end. But I know I made right choice for us both. I will never want to see any of mine pts. I will never send them away and I will always make sure it is done properly. If I have to be there I will, but if I don't then I won't. 

Some of these posts are just self righteous and unnecessary. You are making people feel bad for something that they probably already feel awful about. Just because you can stay with your horses til the end, doesn't mean that anyone who can't is a bad person or a bad owner.
		
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 I agree with all of this.
People cope with bad situations and grief in different ways, it doesn't make them bad people just different.
  I cry a lot, my husband hardly ever cries. Our mothers died with in a couple of years of each other, because he didn't cry or did not appear upset that doesn't mean he wasn't, because I have been married for many years I knew he  was stressed.
  Having a horse put down his hard enough without making a drama out of it, the tears are shed long before. Perhaps its because I'm older and I have seen some god awful things happen, to people , including children and to animals, to cope you put it all in a mental box. I watched my father die at home when I was 19, did I cry then no, because I had to do things for my mum, do I still miss my father, yes. If I could have saved myself from the distress of seeing him dying I would have done but I had no choice. Seeing awful things does not make you are better person, its how you treat the living that counts. When horses are shot I give the huntsman the rope, being there makes not one scrap of difference to the horse, its over in less than 5 mins, I have seen two go down by injection, the result is the same just takes longer. If I could remember the last time I saw my dad it was on two legs I would, I would rather remember my horse on four.


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## FfionWinnie (31 October 2015)

Pearlsasinger said:



			I'm sorry for your loss, amymay.

And a genuine question, so what is the difference?  What makes it possible for you to stay with your mother but not with your horse?  I ask because I have done both and would not have said that it is easier to stay with a person than with a horse.
		
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Haven't had a dead relative but I have had a horse put down in front of me. Watching her die of grass sickness within 24 hours was bad enough but when she was put down she reared up and travelled about 15 feet backwards to the other end of the surgery. That made it all a little bit worse. I'm not sure me being there helped her. It certainly didn't help me and I don't know if I could do it again.


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## Pearlsasinger (31 October 2015)

FfionWinnie said:



			Haven't had a dead relative but I have had a horse put down in front of me. Watching her die of grass sickness within 24 hours was bad enough but when she was put down she reared up and travelled about 15 feet backwards to the other end of the surgery. That made it all a little bit worse. I'm not sure me being there helped her. It certainly didn't help me and I don't know if I could do it again.
		
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That is why I prefer to have horses shot rather than injected.  My 16.3 ID was injected because of a problem with communication and as the vet was there, we decided not to wait any longer.  She reacted in a similar way to yours.  Never again!  It definitely confirmed my preference for the speed of a bullet. 
I do think that sometimes the imagination of what happens is worse than the actuality of being there and knowing for certain.


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## MotherOfChickens (31 October 2015)

I've avoided posting thus far because some of this thread has irritated me so. I used to work as a VN and have seen many hundreds of small animals and horse PTS. I have seen many owners in bits and it would have been more helpful for them to leave but it was their choice either way. 

I was at my fathers and grandmothers side when they died and would not have been anywhere else. I have seen lots of cattle and sheep PTS using various methods, I cull my own birds.  I have always stayed with my dogs. I only stayed with my horse up until he was sedated though, then I left him with my husband, the vet and his assistant. He was a sociable animal who didn't mind who he was with. He was PTS at home in a favourite grazing spot.I wouldn't leave either pony, they are more suspicious of others and I will probably have them shot. 

I have been with two horses, although not mine, that had catastrophically broken down and had to wait on the vet to come and of course I could do so for my own. Every situation is different. These sort of threads are usually the same though, whereby the same posters always like to try and make others feel bad for not doing things in the exact same way.


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## Tnavas (31 October 2015)

We often picked up really good horses and especially ponies from the meat man. Most he had been told were too dangerous to handle/ride. One lovely pony obviously had been in a very novice home and run rings around the child. He was impeccable to ride but threatened the kids on the ground. The staff only had to growl his name and his ears would prick forwards, his back foot would return to the ground and he'd put on his 'butter wouldn't melt' face. 

I've sent them too, but with very strict instructions not to pass on as too dangerous.


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## The Fuzzy Furry (31 October 2015)

MotherOfChickens said:



			Every situation is different. These sort of threads are usually the same though, whereby the same posters always like to try and make others feel bad for not doing things in the exact same way.
		
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Exactly, spot on MoC.

To add, in an emergency, who is to say that they might be actually on holiday, or at work, whatever.

We all make our choices to treat our animals in the way we think best, including life or death situations. Nobody bar none should ever judge another for making a decision as to who/how/when etc.

IMHO, if an elected PTS (by whatever means) is always ruddy hard, you are not more or less a person if you are not there at the end. You will have in all probability shed more tears before the event than you will do after.

In an emergency, adrenalin takes over in most, but again not everyone will be to hand with their animal. Its not a neccessary thing to 'have' to witness if you dont want to.

Thats why the BHS offer the 'Friends at the End' x


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## Goldenstar (31 October 2015)

I agree it's always worse before , the bit from the decision to the day is really hard . The moment when it's enters your head 'that's it then the end game 'is hideous .


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## baran (31 October 2015)

gunnergundog said:



			OK...so, treading carefully here and also playing devils advocate...if you choose in this circumstance to stay with your horse, why not in the planned scenario?  (Not picking at you personally EquineDream)  but just trying to ascertain if adrenaline is the key differentiator?  Also, if people (generalising here!) can/are prepared to stay with their horse in one circumstance then why not in another?
		
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I am not following your reasoning. I happened to be there when my horse dropped dead and would prefer not to have been. It hasn't affected my decision not to be there for planned deaths.


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