# Help!!! Do I need a horse behaviourist?



## laurac2896 (9 March 2013)

Hi

I have recently bought a 16'2 3/4 Thoroughbred 1/4 Irish Draught Gelding.  He is my dream horse and looks beautiful......but, he is the exact opposite to what he was advertised as and basically in the 6 weeks ive had him, hes bucked and bronched and 2 people have been injured by him, one of which has broken her elbow.  

I came to the decision that I was going to have to send him back and the original lady who I bought her off said she'd take him back, turns out shes a trader and shes not done anything about taking him back, I was devastated and wanted to keep him but everyone on the farm was telling me to get rid as he was dangerous.  

hes 8 years old and done lots of dressage in the past and is a beautiful mover, hes fine and then suddenly it starts and come out of no where, I don't think hes in pain, its just like he doesn't he doesn't want to be ridden.  He suddenly starts bucking and bronching until eventually your off. I have spoken to trading standards and I know that I am entitled for my money back, but I know it will be a long way off and probably a lot of hassle.  when I rode him at the previous owners yard he was fine and didn't put a foot wrong..

what should I do?? My friend says its like hes "sacked the job" and doesn't want to be ridden again. Is it possible that with work with a horse behaviourist he may change?? im torn. I don't know much about his history and I cant trace any of his previous owners.

Any comments or ideas would be helpful!!

Thank you!


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## TrasaM (9 March 2013)

Have you had his back and saddle checked?


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## laurac2896 (9 March 2013)

Hi,

thank you,

 I haven't purely because the lady who owns the farm has said the saddle fits him and that hes not doing that out of pain but out of stubbornness. That might be worth trying before anything else really but they really didn't think that's what it was?


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## Obilicious (9 March 2013)

It may not be his saddle but could be his back? 
I think it seems a bit strange if he is fine one minute nad the next he is trying to get you off.
I suppose the horse behavourist will be able to tell what is happening with him.


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## Jools2345 (9 March 2013)

whatmakes you think its not pain related behaviour?


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## TrasaM (9 March 2013)

At what stage does the bucking start? If he's ok to handle on the ground and going ok and then suddenly changes then I'd be suspecting back pain. Virtually all the bucks I've had have been caused by back problems.


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## wench (9 March 2013)

You need to get him looked at by a vet then possibly Physio/chiro. 

Did you have him vetted? Bloods taken? What was his previuos routine and feed and what is it now?


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## RachelFerd (9 March 2013)

No you don't need a horse behaviourist. You need a good instructor, and quite likely a good vet!


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## Booboos (9 March 2013)

You need to decide whether you want this horse or not.

If you don't want to keep him contact an equine solicitor and get him to deal with the dealer on your behalf. I would imagine things would progress a lot faster this way.

If you want to keep him you need to start by getting a decent equine vet out for what may be a lengthy and costly investigation. YOs cannot determine whether horses are in pain or not. If you exclude all physical causes then you need to look at behavioural issues and re-schooling by a decent professional. All this is a very long and difficult road, if you have the option of returning him it may be easier to do so.


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## laurac2896 (9 March 2013)

The reason why we didn't think it was back pain was because he was fine one day, just did one small buck as we went into canter, this was the day after id bought him and he ran off with me a bit but that was it.  The the second time we went to ride him he wouldn't stand still to be mounted and was kicking and striking out at the rider, so we lunged him and he was good and then got on him and he was fine, then the next time he was ridden he bucked and the rider sat to it but then he bucked again and threw her off and she broke her elbow, then he was ridden again and was ok with rider, a little spooky but ok, then the time after that he was fine until all of a sudden he started bronching until she came off and then she got back on and he was ok, but as he was being led down from the school to his stable he freaked out rearing and striking out, managed to get free from her and galloped off down from the school and straight to his stable. I just thought that if it was back pain it would have been constant and not so inconsistent?


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## RachelFerd (9 March 2013)

I would certainly not rule out back pain based on this description. You are experiencing actually VERY consistent tricky behaviour by the sounds of it. Based on your description, *if* you want to keep this horse, take him to a veterinary clinic where they can do a full work-up. I would want back x-rays as a bare minimum given your description.


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## AmiRobertson (9 March 2013)

Poor horse he is obviously not happy. I agree with everyone else having just been through this process with my mare. I had very severe napping rearing and spinning on most schooling sessions and on the lunge she actually ripped through my gloves with the lunge line while rearing and spinning. Turns out after having her back and teeth done she was suffering badly with back pain and head aches and she was actually 3 not 5. 6 months on after a lot of physio and rest she has just completed 6 weeks of lovely basic schooling (no more napping or rearing) and now she having 2 months off. It's a long and expensive emotional road but if you love the horse it's worth it. Please get those checks done you will be surprised at what you will find.


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## cptrayes (9 March 2013)

If you had him vetted get the blood checked.

His behaviour is consistent with painkillers wearing off after you bought him.


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## laurac2896 (9 March 2013)

thank you everyone for your replies,

I will get his back checked.  The previous owner/trader said to get his back checked but as he's only been in the trailer I didn't think he'd have injured his back just from that, maybe she knows that really he does have a problem with his back and that's what it'll be but she obviously wouldn't want to say that.  I will get intouch with the vet and get them to go over him, it may be that he has been given pain killers to be sold and now they've worn off, hes in pain again?

I almost hope that's what it is as then it would be simpler to deal with than behavioural problems and id get to keep him then too


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## AmiRobertson (9 March 2013)

My mares injury to her back apparently happened when she was a foal so she had suffered with pain for a long time and its down to her temperament that no one got hurt. She had also been broken far to young and shipped from pillar to post in her short years. We still have a long way to go and there is no quick fix. Horses can suffer with pain for a long time before they have enough by nature they want to please and from what you have described your boy wants to try but is trying to tell you something.


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## TrasaM (9 March 2013)

Laura. What checks, if any, did you get done on him before you bought him? It does seem odd that the seller suggested a back check if he was being sold as sound. Hope you've not been duped.


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## laurac2896 (9 March 2013)

yes your probably right, plus combining that with new surroundings and not really knowing me very well yet, hes probably feeling it more.  I feel bad now that ive not had him seen to sooner, but he was meant to be going back about 3 weeks ago but the lady keeps letting me down and making up excuses, she obviously doesn't want to take him back for some reason, lets hope we can sort it out! x


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## laurac2896 (9 March 2013)

TrasaM said:



			Laura. What checks, if any, did you get done on him before you bought him? It does seem odd that the seller suggested a back check if he was being sold as sound. Hope you've not been duped.
		
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the farm owner came to look at him with me as shes a lot more knowledgeable than me, shes had horses all her life, so she checked his whole body and pressed and prodded every part of him, she said that he was so nice natured as he didn't even look at her once or bat an eyelid with her doing this, so it was a complete surprise when he started doing all this as soon as we got him home.  ive done my research on this woman and basically its not goo, theres a few reviews about her saying the same sort of thing online, people have bought horses ans they've been the exact opposite as advertised, so I know I have been ripped off to some extent, it just depends on how bad his back is or what ever is wrong with him 

also I forgot to say, he swishes his tail a lot! mainly when your giving him the leg so maybe this could be a clue too.


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## TrasaM (9 March 2013)

Doesn't sound good Laura. He probably wouldn't react to being poked if he'd been given pain killers or even sedated before you viewed him.  The tail swishing would also indicate discomfort. I'm currently having to deal with a horse with a SI problem and some days he's ok and happy but when he's in pain he will get very grumpy and has bucked his owner off a few times. We didn't realise at first that his back was what was causing it either It's the only way they have to communicate to us.


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## laurac2896 (9 March 2013)

will get his back checked and see what comes back from that, not much else I can do at this stage, theres obviously something bothering him, it is possible hes been injured and they've covered it up to sell him on, with not having him long we sort of thought he was just unsettled at first but its become more obvious, theres something else to it.

will get intouch with the vet ad get him checked asap poor boy!


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## TarrSteps (9 March 2013)

Who are you going to get to 'check his back'? Anybody reliable will ask you what the vet has said, so you might as well start there. This is also true of any decent 'problem horse' specialist. Most will want to rule out physical pain and make sure the horse is in a fit state for retraining.

Saddle is also a concern, given your story. It may look like it fits but it is only the horse's opinion that counts. 

Even if the horse does have a physical issue, that does not necessarily mean you have been 'done' but finding something chronic would definitely support your 'not fit for purpose' claim if you choose to pursue it.


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## AmiRobertson (9 March 2013)

Please update on how you get on! It's such a shame and so sorry this has happened to you. He probably wound up with the dealer because someone else couldn't deal with this problem it's a vicious circle for some of these horses I think. But it's great that you are going to investigate. In the meantime maybe enjoy getting to know him on the ground and grooming etc its not all about the riding and I found that the time my mare had off from ridden work actually made our bond stronger


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## laurac2896 (9 March 2013)

I will just get the vet to him and see what they suggest? To be honest I've been scared to get too attached to him as I had thought he was going back, but I've still been grooming him and looking after him, it's hard not to get attached though when he's there and he seems to recognise me now and comes to see me when I arrive at his door, I felt like crying the other day when I thought about him going but I just didn't know what to do, plus I was being told it wasn't pain and it was more behavioural, so was just unsure where to start


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## mle22 (9 March 2013)

I would send him back if you can.


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## Ginger Bear (9 March 2013)

laurac2896 said:



			Hi,

thank you,

 I haven't purely because the lady who owns the farm has said the saddle fits him and that hes not doing that out of pain but out of stubbornness. That might be worth trying before anything else really but they really didn't think that's what it was?
		
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IMHO I have found that almost always a horse misbehaves due to pain .. I find people always say 'that horse is playing you up' and 99% of the time the horse is trying to tell you something is wrong & we ignore them.. I had an experienced person tell me that my horse was 'playing me up' & not listening by getting the wrong canter lead.. Used a new saddle fitter as was not convinced that the one I've always used was doing a good job with my horse, new saddle & surprise surprise correct canter lead every time & my horse is now working the best he ever has.. Also got a new pony after a few months said pony started kicking out backwards all of a sudden when asked to trot 'he's trying you out, they always do that with a different rider' people were saying.. Had him treated for ulcers..within a week we had an extremely willing little pony.. 

When you're horse is misbehaving, are his ears back, is he tetchy anywhere, how does he look when he just stands tied up on the yard, how does he move? Etc etc


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## laurac2896 (9 March 2013)

Well I questioned the saddle and the farm owner said no, it fitted. I was worried about getting a new saddle for him and then after all that, he's still not right, then I'd be even more at a loss, but I also feel like I need to try every avenue, either way it will cost me more money but if it works it would be worth it. I suppose I won't know until I try. As for his ears, to be honest it happens that quickly that I haven't had chance to notice, he's obviously had a lot of time spent on him in the past, as I say, he's good at dressage and it comes so naturally to him when you ask him to do it, it sometimes seems like its when you least expect him to do it, he flips and he's that big there's not much you can do about it at the time, before you know it, your hitting the sand lol


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## Ginger Bear (9 March 2013)

laurac2896 said:



			Well I questioned the saddle and the farm owner said no, it fitted. I was worried about getting a new saddle for him and then after all that, he's still not right, then I'd be even more at a loss, but I also feel like I need to try every avenue, either way it will cost me more money but if it works it would be worth it. I suppose I won't know until I try. As for his ears, to be honest it happens that quickly that I haven't had chance to notice, he's obviously had a lot of time spent on him in the past, as I say, he's good at dressage and it comes so naturally to him when you ask him to do it, it sometimes seems like its when you least expect him to do it, he flips and he's that big there's not much you can do about it at the time, before you know it, your hitting the sand lol
		
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It's hard to say without seeing him but as you say he's a natural at dressage what reason would he ave to suddenly flip??.. Could it be out of excitement, is he a bulshy or a dominant horse? Is it hard work for him? is it when you put you leg on? does he hold his tail straight? What's he like in hand, in the stable, with other horses etc?


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## Fuzzypuff (9 March 2013)

Also look into the possibility of him having ulcers. It may also be worth trying a calmer.


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## cptrayes (9 March 2013)

Do you have blood from a vetting or not?


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## amage (9 March 2013)

Given that farm owner saw fit to let you buy this horse without vetting and swallow what appears to have been a load of cods wallop about what it's done in the past I don't think they are a fit person to be advising you right now. Get a vet for the poor thing ASAP....or go work on your trolling because this seems way too iffy to be true. Assuming it is true get vet, find a new decent yard with better advisors and stop listening to a fool of a farm owner who apparently knows sfa about horses. Prodding and poking is no substitute for a vetting, horse is screaming at you it is in pain and you are refusing to listen....or you are a troll which I suspect is more likely it being a Saturday night and all.


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## TeamChaser (9 March 2013)

^ Helpful .... particularly to a new poster


I would have vet to have a look initially - they will refer you to a specialist physio/chiro or suggest further assesment if they think back related

It may not be pain related.  Mine was over faced as a young horse (before I took him on) which culminated in a nasty rotational fall.  He lost his bottle completely and had bit of a breakdown.  This got worse and worse until he napped so badly wouldn't leave the yard or do anything much at all. Spent most of the time on his back legs. In that instance, yes horse screaming that something was wrong but it wasn't physical

Check out the physical first via your vet and at least then you will know your next course of action


Best of luck


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## laurac2896 (9 March 2013)

Why would I be a troll?? I've not said anything bad iwas just asking for help and ither peoples opinions. The lady who has the farm has a riding school and I would say she's genuinely trying to help and tell me her opinion, she has over 40 horses and knows a lot to do with them. I'm not saying she's correct with with case but I was just asking what every body else thought as I thought I may have found someone who had experienced the same sort of thing, I'm not just going to make something up just because its a Saturday night! I've already said in previous posts that I will get a vet to him asap, not sure what else I can do other than that at the moment


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## laurac2896 (9 March 2013)

TeamChaser, thank you, it was said that maybe he's done that much dressage and shows in the past in a short space of time, that maybe he'd had a bit of a mental breakdown, the same sort of thing as your horse, he loads very  well and it seems as though he's done it a lot. it was just another guess as what it "could" be though. Everybody has their own opinions but I will call the vet tomorrow and get them to call and see him and discuss what road to take with him and get him help


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## Booboos (10 March 2013)

While the comment above was harsh, there is some truth to it. Your YO does not sound very experienced at all. She advised you to get a horse without getting it vetted which is a huge risk, she did not know the dealer had a bad reputation and is still giving you odd advice by diagnosing a behavioural problem herself rather than telling you to ge a good vet out asap. The horse's history is also suspect. Really successful competition horses go for a lot of money and keep a decent value even at an older age (sorry I don't remember if you have said the age of your horse). They also either get sold privately or through dedicated sports horse dealers. I would imagine this horse developped a physical problem in the past and got passed on, sadly you are now left dealing with it.

Get the vet out and go from there but beprepared for a costly and lengthy process.


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## Ginger Bear (10 March 2013)

Have pm'd you


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## jaquelin (10 March 2013)

I agree re physical checks - 
However, a horse behaviourist may be able to ultimately get to the bottom of it. I had a session with one recently & it was quite interesting. My horse has minor issues, but one of the first things time HB did was to work him with no tack at all, & my rather placid boy buck, bronc'ed , snorted, etc, The HB explained that this was a protest on my horse's part. We did some further work & he is much improved.
Horses are often brought on too quickly to compete & sell, with none of the slow, basic groundwork being done. Good luck.


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## kerilli (10 March 2013)

your YO does NOT know that the saddle fits. If I have learnt ANYTHING in my 30+ years with horses it is that the ONLY opinion which matters on saddle fit is the horse's. She isn't even a qualified saddle fitter fgs, or a vet. You didn't get him vetted, because she poked him all over and he was ok? Please tell me I've misunderstood. I'm sorry, but however 'experienced' she may be, she hasn't given you good advice at all so far with this one. If you didn't get him vetted I suspect you have very little comeback re: seller but I could be totally wrong, I don't know the legalities.
I would move him to a yard with good, patient, experienced help (I'm sure someone on here could advise of someone local to you) and start again.
I would definitely get the vet out first. Maybe do a bute trial (see if he's much better on a painkiller). I would have his back and neck thoroughly checked by a McTimoney Corley chiropractor. I would get his teeth checked by an EDT. I would change the saddle - borrow one if necessary. (If you aren't a million miles away I can lend you a medium fit one which I guarantee will not cause any pain if he is an average medium fit TBxID back, I have a few of these totally trustworthy saddles.)
Then, when you have ticked all the boxes properly, I would very carefully observe his body language, with a really good instructor. Lunge him with no tack on. Lunge with tack on. Be alert for any signs of discomfort before someone gets on him.
What food is he on? If he's in good condition I would only give him ad-lib hay in case too much energy is exacerbating the situation.
I would bet he is in pain somewhere. I hope you get to the bottom of it very quickly and can start enjoying your horse.


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## MotherOfChickens (10 March 2013)

any physic/bodyworker or real behaviourist (as opposed to a trainer/NH person) will have to get the OK from your vet anyway and if I was asked to look at a horse like this, I would immediately refer you to a vet without touching it.

this horse cannot tell you any more clearly that there is a problem, if you continue you risk worse accidents and ruining him for good. There are behavioural indicators that can help you decide if its behavioural or pain but at this point you need a vet, not some self proclaimed expert YO.


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## philamena (10 March 2013)

kerilli said:



			your YO does NOT know that the saddle fits. If I have learnt ANYTHING in my 30+ years with horses it is that the ONLY opinion which matters on saddle fit is the horse's. She isn't even a qualified saddle fitter fgs, or a vet. You didn't get him vetted, because she poked him all over and he was ok? Please tell me I've misunderstood. I'm sorry, but however 'experienced' she may be, she hasn't given you good advice at all so far with this one. If you didn't get him vetted I suspect you have very little comeback re: seller but I could be totally wrong, I don't know the legalities.
I would move him to a yard with good, patient, experienced help (I'm sure someone on here could advise of someone local to you) and start again.
I would definitely get the vet out first. Maybe do a bute trial (see if he's much better on a painkiller). I would have his back and neck thoroughly checked by a McTimoney Corley chiropractor. I would get his teeth checked by an EDT. I would change the saddle - borrow one if necessary. (If you aren't a million miles away I can lend you a medium fit one which I guarantee will not cause any pain if he is an average medium fit TBxID back, I have a few of these totally trustworthy saddles.)
Then, when you have ticked all the boxes properly, I would very carefully observe his body language, with a really good instructor. Lunge him with no tack on. Lunge with tack on. Be alert for any signs of discomfort before someone gets on him.
What food is he on? If he's in good condition I would only give him ad-lib hay in case too much energy is exacerbating the situation.
I would bet he is in pain somewhere. I hope you get to the bottom of it very quickly and can start enjoying your horse.
		
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^^^^Top advice. It can take a long time, and a lot of professional opinions, to get to the proper root of behaviours... You need to be hugely systematic about it, working through processes of elimination and prepared to accept that the "cause" may well be a web of interrelated smaller causes and it's only through peeling back the layers and resolving things in turn that you gradually find the real horse underneath. It can be a long road. And it's also very difficult sometimes to take the step of deciding that someone whose knowledge you respected might actually not have the right approach or knowledge for your horse, or even might be pretty clueless in some areas... This is tough, especially if you feel a bit lost yourself.

ETA: Without wanting to sound evil, I'm really not surprised your YO is blaming undetectable behavioural / psychological issues. If she concedes it might be physical she'd have to concede she missed something when "assessing" the horse. I know that sounds cynical, but could you imagine her saying much different?


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## TrasaM (10 March 2013)

Some good advice here. The horse I referred to earlier was bought in similar circumstances. Friend is inexperienced and YO and friend advised that she buy the horse which also was not vetted. The story is much like your's Laura. He was not the bombproof cob as advised. He was a green 5 year old who would panic and buck her off and did the same to others who ride him. There was a long period when various extra bits of tack were added; stronger bit, martingale flash band, NO sugar,  but behaviour remained the same. To confuse things even more same horse has never misbehaved(well almost never) with me.
 Actual problem turned out to be back pain from an ill fitting saddle plus pain from his SI and stifle locking. YO has 45 years experience of horse ownership so on the face of it she seemed a reliable source of advice. She also kept insisting that he was just badly behaved and needed more disclipine ie whack it! Sadly not the case as friend has now found out and our little problem horse has been moved to another yard whilst we try to get on top of his many issues. best of luck in getting him sorted.


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## Luci07 (10 March 2013)

Kerrilli has given you the best round up,of advice. You also sound very novice without sounding unkind....and I truly echo what everyone is saying.... Move yards! 45 years means nothing if your YO has not continued her training or tried to expand her knowledge. I could say I have, let's see , say 35 years experience, had a lot of horses, been lucky enough to be on a yard where I see a lot if babies and dealing horses...and I most certainly could not replace a professional vetting. Poking a horse around isn't helpful. I always slide my hand over my youngsters back after work but have a baseline of healthy horse.  I can fit a saddle to my horse but my knowledge is to keep me going between proper check ups. 

Your horse sounds like he is in pain. And getting worse. As you didn't have a vetting, there is no independent proof that this horse was fine when you bought it, Your YO's opinion is irrelevant,  time has dragged on for whatever reason and now..how could you prove that this was not caused by you?  That is what a court would look at.

Read Kerrillis post, read it again, ask for advice in here as to a good yard and instructor. Do not ride this horse again till the vet has been out and checked it, don't use the saddle till a recommended fitter has been to see. A saddle can appear to be sitting level, with proper clearance, yet the shape of the panels underneath can make it totally wrong.

Insurance, of you are not insured I would most definitely make the vet aware of this when starting out. Having a massive investigation can be very expensive and is perhaps something you need to consider.


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## Booboos (10 March 2013)

I'm not a lawyer but as far as I understand it the OP's rights under the Sale of Goods Act are not affected by the fact that she did not get a vetting done. If the horse is unsuitable for purpose she can return it to the dealer for a refund. This would not apply in a private purchase.


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## TarrSteps (10 March 2013)

Would that not be somewhat tempered by what is wrong with the horse though? If the horse has sustained an injury subsequent to purchase - vs having some sort of chronic issue - then that might influence any prospects. If you buy a television and drop it on the way to the car then, alas, you're out of luck. All the more reason to involve a vet asap if you have suspicions in a case like this. 

I do rather agree with the person who made the point that the yard owner is heavily invested in the horse NOT having a physical issue. Even subconsciously. 

Anyway, the OP is calling the vet and starting the process. Hopefully that will provide a few clues.


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## cptrayes (10 March 2013)

Booboos said:



			I'm not a lawyer but as far as I understand it the OP's rights under the Sale of Goods Act are not affected by the fact that she did not get a vetting done. If the horse is unsuitable for purpose she can {_has the legal right to_} return it to the dealer for a refund.
		
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That's right, but to _force_ a reluctant dealer to take it back and refund her, she needs to prove that it was not fit for purpose on the day on which she bought it and not due to something that she has done with it since. 

In order to do so, she needs to find someone who will swear, in court if necessary, to the horse's behaviour and/or soundness earlier in its life. Or for her vet to find an issue that cannot possibly have arisen only since she bought it and for that opinion not to be challenged by an equally believable vet on the seller's side. 

And even then the dealer probably won't take it back, from the sound of it. She could then sue but even if she wins there is no guarantee at all she'll actually get her money back. 

If she had a vetting, and bloods, and the bloods tested positive she'd be a lot better off, evidence wise, and could get Trading Standards involved and have a much higher chance of returning the horse.

And if the bloods tested negative, she might get something from suing the vet who did the vetting.

Without a vetting, she's only half a leg to stand on, if that.

Unfortunately having a legal right does not mean that you can automatically exercise it


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## Booboos (10 March 2013)

Again I am not a lawyer, but as far as I understand it you are right but the onus would be on the dealer to prove that the horse sustained the injury after it was removed and he has no vetting either or way of doing this (assuming there was no evident traumatic injury). Otherwise the law treats horses like a TV, if the horse does not fit the purpose you want it for, because of either physical or behavioural reasons, regardless of whether these were known to the dealer at the time of sale or not, you can return it. Effectively you can return almost any horse for almost any reason and legally the OP has a strong case. Of course many dealers can still refuse to refund, they go bankrupt, do a runner, etc.


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## cptrayes (10 March 2013)

Booboos said:



			Again I am not a lawyer, but as far as I understand it you are right but the onus would be on the dealer to prove that the horse sustained the injury after it was removed and he has no vetting either or way of doing this (assuming there was no evident traumatic injury). Otherwise the law treats horses like a TV, if the horse does not fit the purpose you want it for, because of either physical or behavioural reasons, regardless of whether these were known to the dealer at the time of sale or not, you can return it.
		
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But it's not like  a TV is it? TV's either work or they don't, and they don't tend to injure themselves on a regular basis like horses. A TV which has failed in 3 months is clearly not fit for purpose on the day it was sold, because it should be expected to work without problems for at least 2 years. A TV which has been damaged by the purchaser can be easily seen to have been damaged by the new purchaser.

In a Civil court the decision will be made on balance of probabilities. I am not sure that this fits with the dealer having to "prove" that the horse injured itself after it was sold, simply that they need to establish that it is very slightly more likely. So let's see - we have a District Judge and he has a purchaser who agrees that the horse was fine when they and their "expert" tried it. The dealer brings along two grooms - one  a kid of 13 ,say, who tell the judge that they looked after and rode the horse on a daily basis and it was fine. And the purchaser was so sure it was the horse for them that they bought it with no vetting and there are no bloods.

Balance of probabilities anyone?





			Effectively you can return almost any horse for almost any reason and legally the OP has a strong case. Of course many dealers can still refuse to refund, they go bankrupt, do a runner, etc.
		
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Legally you are completely correct. "Effectively" however, we would have a fair number fewer threads on this site if it was as simple as your statement suggests. With the dodgy end of dealership, it usually falls at the first hurdle - the dealer refuses to take the horse back, rights notwithstanding.


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## Booboos (10 March 2013)

cptrayes said:



			But it's not like  a TV is it? TV's either work or they don't, and they don't tend to injure themselves on a regular basis like horses. A TV which has failed in 3 months is clearly not fit for purpose on the day it was sold, because it should be expected to work without problems for at least 2 years. A TV which has been damaged by the purchaser can be easily seen to have been damaged by the new purchaser.

In a Civil court the decision will be made on balance of probabilities. I am not sure that this fits with the dealer having to "prove" that the horse injured itself after it was sold, simply that they need to establish that it is very slightly more likely. So let's see - we have a District Judge and he has a purchaser who agrees that the horse was fine when they and their "expert" tried it. The dealer brings along two grooms - one  a kid of 13 ,say, who tell the judge that they looked after and rode the horse on a daily basis and it was fine. And the purchaser was so sure it was the horse for them that they bought it with no vetting and there are no bloods.

Balance of probabilities anyone?
		
Click to expand...

I completely agree with you on the weirdness of the law, buying a horse is certainly nothing like buying a TV, but my impression is that the law is an ass in this case and does treat the two as 'goods' for the purposes of the Act. 

I am also fairly sure that the horse did not just have to be fine at the point of purchase but remain fine for the new owner to use, as fit for purpose is applied over a period of time, so evidence that the horse is now not fit for purpose would be the deciding factor. Presumably there will be a time limit to this, but it won't be a matter of weeks or months.

However, again I am not a lawyer and I may well be wrong! As I think I said initially the OP should get legal advice, at least the first consultation should be free which should give her an idea of where she stands.


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## Luci07 (10 March 2013)

Booboos said:



			I completely agree with you on the weirdness of the law, buying a horse is certainly nothing like buying a TV, but my impression is that the law is an ass in this case and does treat the two as 'goods' for the purposes of the Act. 

I am also fairly sure that the horse did not just have to be fine at the point of purchase but remain fine for the new owner to use, as fit for purpose is applied over a period of time, so evidence that the horse is now not fit for purpose would be the deciding factor. Presumably there will be a time limit to this, but it won't be a matter of weeks or months.

However, again I am not a lawyer and I may well be wrong! As I think I said initially the OP should get legal advice, at least the first consultation should be free which should give her an idea of where she stands.
		
Click to expand...

Sadly you are wrong. Yes take legal advice but OP, as said previously has not even 1/2 a leg to stand on. It will simply come down to one persons word against the others and the onus is not legally on the dealer to ensure the horse was fit for purpose in the way you describe.  If the dealer is even the slightest bit streets smart you can be sure that the original ad would have been pretty vague with no guarantees.

And even if the OP got lucky with a positive judgment, it is not quick and horse is racking up money...and if the judge says pay back the money, dealer can opt to pay say £50 a month against a 2k deal..and then of course the payments can drop off, which means back to court.


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## Booboos (10 March 2013)

Luci07 said:



			Sadly you are wrong.
		
Click to expand...

Quite possibly, but could you ellaborate on why?

What do you make of this interpretation of the 2002 amendment to the act:

"A 2002 amendment to the Sale of Goods Act has increased and made more practical the remedies available to Buyers. A Buyer may now reject goods (a horse) at any time during a two year period after sale, as long as he brings the defect to the Sellers attention within 2 months of discovering it. Further, the law now says that if at any stage within 6 months of the sale, the horse does not (or no longer) conforms with the contract, the horse will be treated as having not conformed at the time of sale and the Buyer can reject the horse or seek damages without having to demonstrate the lack of conformity. However, at any time after 6 months of the sale the Buyer will have to demonstrate the horse does not conform to the particulars of the contract."

and

"Aside from physical defects, a behavioural defect or vice may be discovered in the horse after sale. In 1839, the Court considered the case of Scholefield v Robb (1839) and decided that a vice in a horse is a defect in the temperament of the horse which makes the horse dangerous or diminishes its usefulness, or a bad habit which is injurious to its health and is which is not ordinarily found in a horse. There are behaviours that are generally accepted as vices (such as rearing or bucking) which will impair a horses ability to do its job and if a Buyer is concerned about any particular vices (that are not revealed following the trial of a horse) or he wishes to ensure the horses suitability for a particular purpose, he should ask the Seller (preferably in writing) if any particular vices exist in the horse and explain to the Seller the purpose for which the horse is being purchased. If the Seller fails to mention a behavioural defect in the horse that would prevent it from being able to perform that purpose the Buyer will have a cause of action. The Seller should protect themselves by giving full disclosure about an animals vices should they exist or unsuitability for any job that the Buyer wishes to purchase them for. It will be very difficult for a Buyer to have comeback against the Seller who has warned him in advance of any vices the horse may have. From the Buyers point of view, a Seller who fails to address any questions raised should be treated with caution."

http://www.edmondsonhall.com/page/1r6ef/Home/partner.html

Sorry OP, I hope this is still of some use to you!


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## Luci07 (10 March 2013)

Because time and time again, someone who embarks on this action is just throwing good money away. I have seen friends to through the mill and while the law is clear....how to PROVE it is not.  Judge sees 2 people. Person 1, horse is rearing, can't be ridden, it's unfit for purpose person 2, you tried it, you had an expert look at it, you didn't believe you needed a vetting. I sold you a fit horse, after 3 months you person 1 through neglicence have made the horse like this. It didnt behave like that when I sold it. 

So where is the evidence that shows the horse was a rearer, unsafe etc before the sale? No vetting, no baseline, no independent and credible witnesses. Even if you had a really clean case so lets says, horse sold for novice eventing, tried, passed vetting, comes home,  3 days later horse is chronically lame, blood tests then show the horse was heavily doped to coverage lameness...then you have a case. Facts are indisputable but whenever it comes to one persons word against the other..it's a really really weak case


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## Booboos (10 March 2013)

Your friends bought from dealers? How many friends lost their cases against dealers? Just out of interest, hope you don't mind OP!


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## Luci07 (11 March 2013)

3 out of 3 to date and if you search on here you will find similar stories from others.


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## kerilli (11 March 2013)

OP, if all that advice is overwhelming, the alternative, which I would take without hesitation in your position, would be to ship him to Jason Webb and let him (supremely experienced) get to the bottom of the problem and help you both.


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## Crugeran Celt (11 March 2013)

Laura I would get a vet to check him out and go from there, until you have an idea what you are dealing with you cannot make any decisions. I bought a cob 5 years ago and when I tried him he was an absolute angel. I did have him 5* vetted which he passed with flying colours and so I bought him to find when I got him home that he was a nervous wreck out and about on his own. Not what I had been led to believe by the seller. I still have him and always will but I know there is nothing physically wrong he is just an odd little horse. You need to know if there are any physical problems this poor horse is dealing with, Good luck with him and lets hope it is something that can be put right for you.


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## laurac2896 (12 March 2013)

Thank you for all your posts and advice.

He has been seen today and it is suspected he has Kissing Spine. Not good I know, I also searched his name and he is an ex racer! basically the info ive been told about him is a pack of lies, his passport has been tampered with to make it look like hes never raced as pages have been removed to hide the fact hes raced.  The sad thing is, that we have no idea of how long he's been like this and it looks like hes never been treated for it, poor boy could have been in pain for god knows how long and no one has bothered to help him, I cried today when we were told as it made me sad to think of him suffering.

on the up side, I will do my best to make him as comfortable as possible and if it means the operation to give him a chance, this is what I will do. 

hes having a physio session tomorrow and ive been told they will know a bit more then too, so lets hope its something we can work on!


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## TarrSteps (12 March 2013)

I am really sorry to hear your news, both for yourself and your poor horse. But very pleased that you got him assessed before anyone was seriously hurt. At least he has landed with a caring person now, however you choose to go forward from here. 

Don't despair, there are horses with all sorts of health problems living perfectly comfortable and useful lives.


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## Booboos (13 March 2013)

Sorry to hear it's not good news OP, but at least you have a diagnosis and a way forward.

Thanks for the info Luci07, i have to admit I thought the law worked better than that.


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## amage (13 March 2013)

If his passport was tampered with you should get on to Wetherbys and ask them for a full duplicate. With the current horsemeat scandal the last thing you want is any hassle from authorities and I would imagine inspections could come further down the line on passports for these details. Generally passports are o ly marked at racetrack if sames were taken post winning so there may not have been tampering. Certainly any we've had that didn't win there was nothing to state they raced in their passports. What was his racing name and how old is he?


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## wench (13 March 2013)

Has the breeding part of the passport been tampered with (ie the front page)?


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## kerilli (13 March 2013)

TarrSteps said:



			I am really sorry to hear your news, both for yourself and your poor horse. But very pleased that you got him assessed before anyone was seriously hurt. At least he has landed with a caring person now, however you choose to go forward from here. 

Don't despair, there are horses with all sorts of health problems living perfectly comfortable and useful lives.
		
Click to expand...

This. 
'kissing spines' affects different horses in various ways, obviously it depends on the severity but also on the horse's individual stoicism.
I don't know if it's worth you contacting the seller (how long did they own the horse for?) with this new information about the horse being an ex-racer etc. If they lied etc, I really hope you can get some satisfaction.

Very very best of luck to you and him.


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## onemoretime (17 March 2013)

cptrayes said:



			If you had him vetted get the blood checked.

His behaviour is consistent with painkillers wearing off after you bought him.
		
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Absolutely agree CPTrayes.  I would definetely get the blood run.  It sounds very like something has been covered up.  where did you buy him from?


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## Luci07 (17 March 2013)

Kissing spines is a generic term and before you really think about an operation please do look into this carefully. Not only is it incredibly expensive but the outcome can vary massively depending on how severe the original condition was. Rehabilitation can - literally take years with no definite prognosis. You can one extreme which a friends horse has and this is managed with physio, injections, careful management and horse is still eventing albeit at a low level. Friend no 2 had the operation, spent nearly 2 years in rehab and getting there and finally had to admit defeat and have her horse put down.

This story becomes more murky and actually a clearer case for trading standards. Ask RachelFerd for more accurate pricing but a youngish straight off the racetrack horse would probably only be around £500 ish. An ex racer with kissing spines is not even worth meat money. The issue would be proving that the dealer knew the horse had kissing spines.. hence a blood test might show up bite, but the fact that the passport has  been tampered with as a TB who has been raced is normally worth less than one who has not is an indisputable fact. Your evidence could come from say, something like Brightwells auctions and looking at the price of a raced v an unraced TB. 

Very sorry to hear your update. Sounds awful whatever the outcome is now.


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## TrasaM (17 March 2013)

Sorry to read your update. Poor horse.  I hope you manage to get sufficient evidence to do something about the dealer.
 Have you read MrsB's thread about Boris ?


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## Amymay (18 March 2013)

Luci07 said:



			Kissing spines is a generic term and before you really think about an operation please do look into this carefully. Not only is it incredibly expensive but the outcome can vary massively depending on how severe the original condition was. Rehabilitation can - literally take years with no definite prognosis. You can one extreme which a friends horse has and this is managed with physio, injections, careful management and horse is still eventing albeit at a low level. Friend no 2 had the operation, spent nearly 2 years in rehab and getting there and finally had to admit defeat and have her horse put down.
		
Click to expand...

Really, really great post.

Sorry OP.  You must be distraught.


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## laurac2896 (18 March 2013)

Thought I'd update you all, we've now had physio on him and they don't think it is kissing spine after all, thank god! They did say he's had a bad injury to his back end and a lot of muscle tear, so they think he's had a bad fall at some point, but obviously its guess work as we don't know anything about his past, I've called wetherbys and they've given me a number to call as they had a record of him racing one race LAST MAY! I couldn't believe it, anyway for some reason that's his only race and it was point to point. So now were working with him in the way of building up his condition and stretching out all these muscles that need to be worked with. I've sent him to a lovely lady called Melanie Watson who sorts out horses with issues mental and physical, and he's being re schooled as an ex racer. She believes the bucking is from him hardly having any top line muscle and also the fact he's got pain through his back end, she thinks that the saddle will just be adding to his pain, so lots on lunging and work in the Passoa to try and build him back up to fitness and then hopefully we can work with him to sort him out and have him happy and not in any more pain.

As for the lady we bought him off, she made out she'd had him for over a year and that he was a family horse, which we later found out she was a trader and couldn't have had him that long as he was raced less than a year ago. We think he was almost certainly on pain killers when we went to see him and rode him, so as the pain killers have work off, his pain had got progressively worse, and so did the bucking etc. 

I bought him from near Wakefield at a yard called J Six, the lady who sold him was called Tracey.

Anyway, I'm hoping that we can work with him and basically have a good life together, as I don't want to just give up on him, although I'm obviously out of pocket by a lot as I've payed over the odds for an ex racer which I was told had never raced etc, and now  paying for all his retraining. But I'm hoping at the end of it, I'll have a good horse! He's so beautiful too! &#128516;


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## TableDancer (18 March 2013)

OP I think your attitude and approach to this is outstanding, he is very very lucky to have found you. Wishing you all the very very best with your project, please keep us all updated with progress


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## TarrSteps (18 March 2013)

Boy, you really did meet a bad one, didn't you. Poor you and poor horse.   Fingers crossed you get some answers for him and it's lovely to see he's landed with someone who is doing right by him.

(Be aware though, the only diagnosis for KS is x-rays.  That said, x-rays aren't necessarily an indicator of how much pain a horse is in so to some extent, if money is an issue, you're just as likely to get on well taking the horse as you find it.  He'll tell you if he's not up to the work.)

I think it's still worth a phone call to Trading Standards and/or a solicitor.  This seems a very obvious and well documented case so might be worth at least investigating a bit further.  I know someone who bought in a similar-ish situation - horse had been "loaned" from a rescue, resold with a completely false history.  In her case she DID get her money back as there were obvious records to identify the horse and evidence these had been tampered with.


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## kerilli (18 March 2013)

TableDancer said:



			OP I think your attitude and approach to this is outstanding, he is very very lucky to have found you. Wishing you all the very very best with your project, please keep us all updated with progress 

Click to expand...

Absolutely, 100%. 

I agree with TS too, I think it's worth contacting Trading Standards about this. The passport-tampering is a HUGE no-no. You should get at least some of your money back. Nobody should profit from such lies, especially at the expense of the horse (and with the associated risk to any rider, obviously). 
Very very best of luck with him.


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## wench (18 March 2013)

Before you send him away... I would be very, very tempted to get him xrayed for KS. He may have it, he may not. It may or may not be causing problems; however for me I would rather spend a few extra ££ before I sent him away, knowing there shouldnt be any physical reason for him to be ridden.

And if he's done a P2P, that at least means he's been hunted, and probably ridden "normally". Whats his racing name?


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## laurac2896 (18 March 2013)

Thank you everyone for your support, at the the end of the day, I know I've not had him very long, but I love him, and I want to atleast try everything I can so I can say "I've done my best with this horse" but I have hope that he's now going to be ok in the end. I realise this is a project and not something that's going to happen over night but you've got to try. His racing name was San Fran, but there's not much online about him as he did only do the one race, so apart from that, a lot of it is guess work. Also I was told he wasn't injured in that race and didn't retire through injury as far as they were aware so that's a bonus I suppose. He does seem to have done "something" in the line of normaly work, as he does go into a good outline and will do leg yields etc when asked in the school, so he might have had some sort of training,but maybe the muscle and pain issue was never properly addressed. Who knows. I'd love to post a pic of him on here but I can't seem to figure it out, does anyone know how I can upload it to the post? 

Thanks xxx


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## laurac2896 (18 March 2013)

http://imageshack.us/photo/photo/834/imagegjwg.jpg/


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## laurac2896 (18 March 2013)

http://img22.imageshack.us/img22/9105/imagewvu.jpg


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## Amymay (18 March 2013)

Sweet boy.  And very lucky to have found you.


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## kerilli (18 March 2013)

Oh bless, he looks an absolutely lovely boy. He is very very lucky indeed that he landed with you.


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## laurac2896 (18 March 2013)

http://img822.imageshack.us/img822/9591/imagevlx.jpg


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## laurac2896 (18 March 2013)

The last pic was the one time he didn't buck when we first got him, haha. X


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## wench (18 March 2013)

Have you looked on Racing Post website? Assume you have but:

San Fran
Van Dantzig x Phar Field
Born 1st Jan 2004
Owner S Chadwick

You could try the jumping for fun (P2P) forum. There may just be someone in there that knows the horse:  http://j4f.activeboard.com/forum.spark?forumID=55753


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## Amymay (18 March 2013)

TarrSteps said:



			I think it's still worth a phone call to Trading Standards and/or a solicitor.  This seems a very obvious and well documented case so might be worth at least investigating a bit further.  I know someone who bought in a similar-ish situation - horse had been "loaned" from a rescue, resold with a completely false history.  In her case she DID get her money back as there were obvious records to identify the horse and evidence these had been tampered with.
		
Click to expand...

Yep, agree.


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## wench (18 March 2013)

I have just done some more digging for you and I have found this....

http://www.dbsauctions.com/pdf/dbs/222/267.pdf

More evidence for dodgy dealer?


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## TGM (18 March 2013)

I hope it all works out OK for you and your horse OP.  I just wish everyone with a problem horse was as sensible and responsible as you!


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## wench (18 March 2013)

http://www.redbridgestables.com/20092010.html

More info... Scroll down the page.


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## wench (18 March 2013)

http://www.ukhorseriderguide.com/listing.asp?ID=6355


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## laurac2896 (18 March 2013)

Omg! Thank you so much! So looking at this, he was un backed still in 2009/10? Xx


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## laurac2896 (18 March 2013)

@wench, yes I've already seen this comment! Not good is it! It's all evidence that I could use to try and get some sort of money back maybe, I am still going to chase it up and go to trading standards as I think I have a fair bit of evidence xxx


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## wench (18 March 2013)

It would appear so. I would try getting in touch with that yard in Ireland, see if they can give you any description on his behaviour. Knowing Irish people, I would try ringing rather than email, as a good bet that they wont read their emails!

Is the previous owner's details in the passport - may also be worth while trying to contact her, see if she knows of any issues. 

Have you read the sales documentation?


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## wench (18 March 2013)

http://paulswaffield.com/


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## laurac2896 (18 March 2013)

We guessed he'd had the hobday op as he doesn't whinny and also has scarring inside when you feel around his throat area and I know they do this to race them of they struggle with their breathing, we didn't know about the soft palate but I suppose that's all linked. Thanks so much for looming for me,it's helped to find a few more pieces to the puzzle! He has no previous owners at all in his passport and all his inoculations have been removed from his passport, I think to make it look like he hasnt raced. I'm going to contact that yard if I can and see if they know anything else about him, thanks again you've been a star! Xxx


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## wench (18 March 2013)

Hopefully one of them may be able to help you - even if its with previous medical history so you know what may/might not be wrong with him.

The sales info is interesting as it says he is registered in the Weatherby's Non-TB studbook. This would indicate that he is not all TB... but on inspection his parents appear to be. Odd.


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## wench (18 March 2013)

http://bloodstock.racingpost.com/sa...an+Dantzig#individualResultsTabs=catalogue_26

Here's another one for you... although not very descriptive


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## annunziata (18 March 2013)

Luci07 said:



			Kissing spines is a generic term and before you really think about an operation please do look into this carefully. Not only is it incredibly expensive but the outcome can vary massively depending on how severe the original condition was. Rehabilitation can - literally take years with no definite prognosis. You can one extreme which a friends horse has and this is managed with physio, injections, careful management and horse is still eventing albeit at a low level. Friend no 2 had the operation, spent nearly 2 years in rehab and getting there and finally had to admit defeat and have her horse put down.

This story becomes more murky and actually a clearer case for trading standards. Ask RachelFerd for more accurate pricing but a youngish straight off the racetrack horse would probably only be around £500 ish. An ex racer with kissing spines is not even worth meat money. The issue would be proving that the dealer knew the horse had kissing spines.. hence a blood test might show up bite, but the fact that the passport has  been tampered with as a TB who has been raced is normally worth less than one who has not is an indisputable fact. Your evidence could come from say, something like Brightwells auctions and looking at the price of a raced v an unraced TB. 

Very sorry to hear your update. Sounds awful whatever the outcome is now.
		
Click to expand...

Agree with potential kissing spine my horse sounds the same as yours!!  He has the KS opp in Nov and is coming back into work now and a changed horse a vet a a lawyer is what you need I am soo sorry to read this hope it gets sorted soon


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## laurac2896 (12 April 2013)

UPDATE:

Frank has now been home for around 2 weeks now after being with a lovely lady called Melanie Watson.....

He's a changed boy! After lots of work, special stretches on a daily basis, lunging and a new fitted saddle he has also be re trained as an exracer and is absolutely fabulous now. He's a calmer and happier boy and it is visibly noticeable. No more bucking, and he now doesn't try to take the lead when you lead him to the field and no barging etc. Its like he's happier mentally as well as physically. We now have a bond and trust between us. 

I hacked him out for the first time last weekend and he didn't put a hoof wrong! Even when the other horse I was out with went to canter, I was able to hold him back and not follow. The main thing is he now seems safe and I'm so pleased with how he's changed, it just makes me love him even more! &#128525;

Thank you for all your help as without all of your suggestions, I would have been at a dead end. &#128515;&#128516;


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## laurac2896 (12 April 2013)




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## laurac2896 (12 April 2013)

Happy Frank


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## laurac2896 (12 April 2013)

Me & Frank


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## TPO (12 April 2013)

Glad to read your happy ending. He's lucky to have ended up with you


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## laurac2896 (12 April 2013)

@TPO thank you so much, I'm so pleased we got to the bottom of it, he's such a lovely sole and hopefully we'll have a lot of happy years to come! Thanks again x


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## philamena (12 April 2013)

Wow quick turnaround - really well done for getting him the help it appears he needed, sounds like he's lucky to have come to you. Pain can cause all kinds of flighty behaviour, it puts them on constant adrenaline because the body suspects it's going to be less able to get away from danger quickly so needs to be on high alert. He's a smart looking chap  Keep listening to him (it'll get easier to hear him whisper rather than shout the longer you know him, and the more you see of the real, relaxed him) and then ask for proper help when you need it, and you'll be grand.


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## xspiralx (12 April 2013)

Delighted to read this update, what a lucky boy to have ended up with you.

Look forward to hearing how you get on in future


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## laurac2896 (12 April 2013)

Thank you for all your help and lovely replies. Just thought I'd post this final pic of him, I think he looks especially lovely in this ha ha &#128536;


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## irishdraft (12 April 2013)

Really interesting thread especially all the info wench managed to find, so glad it has all worked out for you Laura and of course Frank, you usually only hear the unhappy endings on this type of story


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## noodle_ (12 April 2013)

what a fab thread!!!

congrats frank on landing yourself a fab owner!!!


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## laurac2896 (12 April 2013)

Aww thank you, I think I've just been lucky with the help I've had with him, I've not done the hard work with him, Melanie did that, but she's taught me the basics to carry it on at home with him and he seems to have settled back in well at home. Without her I'd still be clueless with a dangerous horse. I haven't bothered to contact the lady (trader) who I got him off. I should really still report her as she sold me a dangerous horse, which had raced when I was told he'd never had and he had probably not had little if any training after his racing. People could have been seriously hurt. I'm just glad that in the end, he's the horse I thought I'd originally bought &#128522;


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## noodle_ (12 April 2013)

most people would have given up and fobbed him off...!!

always good to have help though and not be afraid to ask for it 


good luck for the future and please keep us updated!!


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## laurac2896 (12 April 2013)

Thanks! I will keep you updated! Xx


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