# Cannot ever let dog off lead.



## tessybear (21 February 2013)

Does anyone else have a dog like this, our GSP cannot be trusted off the lead because once she has the scent of something she turns off and no matter how many times you shout her name and flap your arms she keeps on going. Not to bad when you're in the middle of fields but clearly if there are any forms of roads or live stock near by it becomes dangerous. 

However over the past 3/4 years after she had got the scent of the rabbit or whatever she had been chasing she would run back towards us but would never come close enough to catch her. She acts like she was worried about being told off and would hang back.

Now we have moved and are nearer to roads that people fly down at stupid speeds she must stay on the stretchy lead whilst her Jack russel friend is off, she does go off the lead down the stock fenced 2 acre padock.

Does anyone else have a dog they simply cannot trust off lead ?


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## Adopter (21 February 2013)

Yes, our rescue border collie who is just 5 now and we  have had 18 months.  He goes off lead in our fenced paddock and fenced garden, but outside that just can not trust him to come back.

We do use a long recall training lead in the field and wood and work on his recall but it is going to be a long time before we make any progress, so I prefer the safe option which is always on a lead away from home.

Have to say this is the first time we have had this problem with a dog, and we have spent and absolute fortune on dog proof fencing in the last twelve months, never needed it before!


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## quirky (21 February 2013)

Our 2 GSP's are now old ladies whose eye sight is deteriorating. We already lost one, who was picked up by the dog warden, a while back. Now I am loathe to let them off 

What gets my goat though is a guy we meet who always has a snipe at the dogs being on the lead and how he feels sorry for them. Makes me .


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## lexiedhb (21 February 2013)

Mine- rescue- way to OTT in his greeting of other dogs- goes deaf if there is one around- work in progress.

can be offlead with his "mates" in a secluded field we use regularly- where actually he is very attentive.


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## whisp&willow (21 February 2013)

yes!  My American Bulldog is not good with other dogs, so is only off lead in secure private areas, or when off up in the hills while we are fishing.

Her problem is with other dogs, so as long as we know we are alone (ie up a mountain where you can see for miles!) she is fine off lead-  she has chased a deer once or twice... but Abs are not built for speed... or endurance!  so she doesn't go too far!


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## weaselwords (21 February 2013)

18 months on my weimaraner bitch is starting to be much more consistent with her recall. Has taken an enormous amount of work and a collision with a car on the way. Some dogs can be an enormous challenge and you are doing the right thing to keep yours on the lead.


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## Star_Chaser (21 February 2013)

Your answer is to go and do some gundog training in classes.  The GSP club run several across the country and if they don't have one local there will be another breed whose classes you can drop into.  If your issue is hunting and recall then you have to expose to those things and train to make sure you are back in control. 

You might find a vibrating collar useful if she is completely ignoring you (and NO not a shock collar your only asking to distract the dog so that they listen to you not give it a rollicking) you can pick them up cheaply. 

Never understood why people take so much time and effort to train and school their horses but expect their dogs to train themselves   If your stuck for classes PM I might know someone in your area.

Have to say I really dislike flexi-leads they encourage your dog not to recall correctly.


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## lexiedhb (21 February 2013)

Star_Chaser said:



			Your answer is to go and do some gundog training in classes.  The GSP club run several across the country and if they don't have one local there will be another breed whose classes you can drop into.  If your issue is hunting and recall then you have to expose to those things and train to make sure you are back in control. 

You might find a vibrating collar useful if she is completely ignoring you (and NO not a shock collar your only asking to distract the dog so that they listen to you not give it a rollicking) you can pick them up cheaply. 

Never understood why people take so much time and effort to train and school their horses but expect their dogs to train themselves   If your stuck for classes PM I might know someone in your area.
		
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Yeah Im sure none of use who have issues thought of training.............


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## Umbongo (21 February 2013)

Yep, my collie is aggressive with other dogs. He is on the lead all the time apart from when I can be absolutely sure we are by ourselves (out on the fields when other people are at work, up a mountain/moors for example!) or in a secure field. He gets lots of exercise and agility to keep him occupied.

He was attacked as a puppy and no amount of training or behaviorists has helped, believe me we have tried. He is 10 now. He is becoming easier as he has gotten older. Other than that he is the best dog in all other ways! So it is quite sad to not be able to let him off for a play on the beach


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## eatmyshorts (21 February 2013)

I have two GSP littermates. The one I've had since 16wks old and done lots of training with from an early age has excellent recall. I didn't get her sister until she was about a year old and she was a bit of a juvenile delinquent! She'd ignore you to such a degree on walks, I was actually beginning to think she may be deaf. If you were close enough to touch her, you could get her attention, any further away, forget it. We tried to stick to fairly enclosed areas (eg. fenced in pathways) but she still managed to run off several times (for periods of about 15minutes although it felt longer). We tried keeping her on leash but she hated it, it just wasn't enough for her. 

We eventually resorted to a shock collar on a very low level (it has vibrate too which we tried first but it had absolutely no effect). I know some folk may they are cruel, but at the end of the day, we have busy roads and livestock closeby so it may well save her life. I only had to activate it 3 or 4 times before she started to pay attention. Once she did I rewarded her with a tennis ball. These days she is a bit tennis ball obsessed, but you couldn't lose her if you tried!


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## Star_Chaser (21 February 2013)

lexiedhb said:



			Yeah Im sure none of use who have issues thought of training............. 

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Thinking it is one thing... doing it is another


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## eatmyshorts (21 February 2013)

Never ceases to amaze me here how rude some people are, often without even having the balls to do it upfront but by snide implication. Perhaps it would have been more polite to just ask what training had been attempted?


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## tessybear (21 February 2013)

She was involved with puppy classes and her recall wasn't bad till the age of 4ish when she would go into her "Mood" and just become a pain to catch. In ever other aspect she is fantastic. 

Oh really im interested how the stretchy leads affect re-call could you fill me in  Thank you very much for the advice so far.

Althoug i must admit wasn't after advice more than happy to trundle along on the lead, don't find many dogs that are perfect in every other aspect


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## CazD (21 February 2013)

tessybear said:



			Does anyone else have a dog like this, our GSP cannot be trusted off the lead because once she has the scent of something she turns off and no matter how many times you shout her name and flap your arms she keeps on going. Not to bad when you're in the middle of fields but clearly if there are any forms of roads or live stock near by it becomes dangerous. 

However over the past 3/4 years after she had got the scent of the rabbit or whatever she had been chasing she would run back towards us but would never come close enough to catch her. She acts like she was worried about being told off and would hang back.

Now we have moved and are nearer to roads that people fly down at stupid speeds she must stay on the stretchy lead whilst her Jack russel friend is off, she does go off the lead down the stock fenced 2 acre padock.

Does anyone else have a dog they simply cannot trust off lead ?
		
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You could be describing my rescue terrier.  Once she has a scent she is gone and no amount of training has made any difference.  None of my other dogs have ever been like this but she is the only one I've not had from a puppy.


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## nativepony (21 February 2013)

Yep, got 2 lurchers - one will chase (& catch) deer, the other was rescued from gypsies and never socialised as a puppy so has no idea how to play with other dogs and comes across as aggressive, he isn't but other dogs don't tolerate his 'exuburant' behaviour and often are aggressive towards him so it's safer to keep him on the lead! I am very lucky to have use of a 5 acre field which I can run them in so they don't go completely crazy!!!


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## eatmyshorts (22 February 2013)

Just another thought OP, if you find that being on leash all the time isn't enough for her, GSP' s being quite a high energy breed, have you considered training her to bikejore? More challenging exercise, in harness so still on
a leash as such, and you may just find it gets her focus - my girls have undergone distraction training in harness so now if they see a deer, they get burst of adrenaline but stay on track. You can get a made to measure harness for as little as £14.


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## lexiedhb (22 February 2013)

eatmyshorts said:



			Just another thought OP, if you find that being on leash all the time isn't enough for her, GSP' s being quite a high energy breed, have you considered training her to bikejore? More challenging exercise, in harness so still on
a leash as such, and you may just find it gets her focus - my girls have undergone distraction training in harness so now if they see a deer, they get burst of adrenaline but stay on track. You can get a made to measure harness for as little as £14.
		
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I'd love to do this with mine- but if he caught sight of a squirrel i'd be a gonner!!


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## _GG_ (22 February 2013)

Me and the OH we concerned about this when we got our rescue pups. One JRT and one Rottie x Lab. First time off lead in a massive well enclosed field and we let them off with the collies. Called the collies back, the pups followed. Worked perfectly.

One thing we found with the JRT was that if he caught sight of a rabbit or pheasant, he would be off. Recall didn't work, but telling him to "leave it" did and that always got him to stop and then we could call him back.

If it is something too interesting, often, having a dog good with the leave command is more helpful than the actual recall.


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## Luci07 (22 February 2013)

My oldest stafford is not trusted off lead. Its blooming annoying as she is perfect 99.99% of the time but in the 8 years I have had her, she has gone off and meant it. As I have staffords I simply cannot have a dog who chooses to disappear and go deaf so she stays on lead.She did go for an old dog the first time (actually left her "pack" of 7 dogs to go after it), turned out that particular poor dog spends a huge amount of time at the vets having been subjected to random dog attacks,  and the 2nd time was after a deer. I am not going to risk it. I am lucky enough that our fields at the yard are deer fenced so I take her off lead through there and there are a couple of points on our home walk's when I know I am safe as again, enclosed fields and can see ahead. The other 2 are fine though agree the "leave" command is better than "come"!. That and bribery. 

I put up with it. It would be much nicer for all concerned if I didn't have to keep 1 dog on lead but staffords have such a bad reputation that I cannot take any chances. What makes it even more annoying is that she is the first dog we will "dog test" a strange dog at the yard with as she is so good with new dogs, but she let me down in a public area and I am not risking a dog or me losing her.


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## eatmyshorts (22 February 2013)

lexiedhb said:



			I'd love to do this with mine- but if he caught sight of a squirrel i'd be a gonner!!
		
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Seriously, you may be surprised - I expected to end up in the nearest hedge! And you do have brakes in case of emergency (or squirrel!). It's useful to have an experienced dog for them to follow, or failing that someone up front to encourage. The "Leave it" command is very important and we do train specifically to ignore distractions.The dogs love it - seems to me a good solution if a high energy dog needs some faster exercise but can't be off leash.


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## Nikki J (22 February 2013)

tessybear said:



			Does anyone else have a dog like this, our GSP cannot be trusted off the lead because once she has the scent of something she turns off and no matter how many times you shout her name and flap your arms she keeps on going. Not to bad when you're in the middle of fields but clearly if there are any forms of roads or live stock near by it becomes dangerous. 

However over the past 3/4 years after she had got the scent of the rabbit or whatever she had been chasing she would run back towards us but would never come close enough to catch her. She acts like she was worried about being told off and would hang back.

Now we have moved and are nearer to roads that people fly down at stupid speeds she must stay on the stretchy lead whilst her Jack russel friend is off, she does go off the lead down the stock fenced 2 acre padock.

Does anyone else have a dog they simply cannot trust off lead ?
		
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I had one just like that, and she too was a GSP!!  I won't bore you with all the details, but she ended up being run over as she ran across the village road after a cat.  She had escaped from our garden.  We did used to let her off leash because I don't believe in never doing so, personally I think all dogs should run free where it is safe, and so we would let her free in safe areas like enclosed fields or the beach - she would never run away on a beach, but just chase seagulls madly up and down and in and out of the water!

Something you said makes me wonder though if and when she does eventually come back to you, do you lavish her with praise or do you tell her off?  Never, never, never tell her off if she has come back to you, even if she is diving around out of your reach, when eventually you manage to capture her, heap praise on her, give her a titbit, whatever you want to do to reward her.  Never (like I did) shut her away in her kennel "as a punishment", or lock her up somewhere.  Just the opposite - keep her with you, sleeping with you included (not in the bed, unless you don't mind!), try and let her know that being with you is a good thing, and that even when she has been naughty, you will be patient with her and work through her disobedience.  I have come to realise that Lizzie used to hoof it whenever she could because she was lefthome alone all day whilst we were out at work, and she was probably bored stiff and under-exercised so she would just go lulu when taken out into the garden for lavatorial purposes and do her very best to find a way out.

As unacceptable as it may sound to most people, we eventually had to resort to an e collar with our wolf cross when we rescued him a couple of years ago.  It was very much a last resort, that or be put down as I will not condemn a dog to a life on the lead.  It worked a treat ... very few zaps resulted in an extremely obedient dog who comes to you as soon as you call "Come!".  And he wants to come, he is really happy, really pleased with himself, he is not coming back because he is terrified of being zapped, he is recalling because he WANTS to.  He is so smug and pleased with himself, and he gets lavish praise for his pains!

Sorry, I've rambled on and on!!


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## eatmyshorts (22 February 2013)

So sorry to hear about your GSP Nikki J. Some people don't realise bad recall can be a matter of life & death & in the grand scheme of things, if an e-collar is used correctly, it's definately the better option. Even on the few occassions i used the e-collar, i made sure i praised & treated her when she came back.


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## CorvusCorax (22 February 2013)

E-collars on a light setting, introduced correctly and used as an attention grabber rather than BAD DOG - ZAP! are a very useful tool.

I love the 'your dog isn't trained' argument. Sometimes you can't fight with genetics, sometimes you can't fight with ingrained behaviour. I'd rather be safe than sorry, there are plenty of ways to tire a dog than letting them bimble around at their own leisure off lead (there's another sweeping statement, for balance )


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## tessybear (23 February 2013)

Thank you cavecanem  I usually cycle with her for a good few miles and she comes back tired  better safe than sorry !


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## Toast (23 February 2013)

Yep, our rescue collie.. unfortunately the lights are on but nobody is home. And once shes off lead thats it, we're looking for her for hours!


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## Bille (23 February 2013)

You are right CaveCanem. Some breeds are not as easily trained as others. 

I have Alaskan Malamutes (mine were always OFF the lead dogs) much to the disapproval of other sled dog owners but they will be put on the lead near other dogs, joggers and live stock. 

However just because some dogs are very difficult to train, does not mean we should not make a serious effort to do so!!!

I agree every dog owner should do the responsible thing and keep their dogs under control and at least clip them on the lead when they see another dog...

Quite frankly I'm sick and tired of all manor of dogs running up to mine, with the owner shouting from the distance "HE'S ALRIGHT"!!!!


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## Alec Swan (23 February 2013)

Have I missed the post that suggested more treats and rewards?  They seem to be the answer to every other canine problem! 

Alec.


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## tessybear (23 February 2013)

Alec Swan said:



			Have I missed the post that suggested more treats and rewards?  They seem to be the answer to every other canine problem! 

Alec.
		
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Oh and getting a dog communicator in of course alec


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## Dry Rot (23 February 2013)

Alec Swan said:



			Have I missed the post that suggested more treats and rewards?  They seem to be the answer to every other canine problem! 

Alec.
		
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The classic solution to biting has to be "give treats to divert his attention".

So far, I have managed to resist contributing to this thread....


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## tessybear (24 February 2013)

Dry Rot said:



			The classic solution to biting has to be "give treats to divert his attention".

So far, I have managed to resist contributing to this thread....
		
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Can i ask what you mean by the second part , didn't put it up to cause a stir if that's what was meant ?


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## Dry Rot (24 February 2013)

tessybear said:



			Can i ask what you mean by the second part , didn't put it up to cause a stir if that's what was meant ?

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A dog trainer with any experience will seldom give advice because there will always be someone who knows better.


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## Twizzel (24 February 2013)

I won't walk our spaniel off the lead unless my OH is with us, she respects him more and her recall is dicey with me (well it's good until she gets within 10ft of me and then won't come any closer). Not really a problem as we have the farm to walk her on so she still has off lead walks with me, just on the farm.


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## Luci07 (24 February 2013)

Actually treats are what works for me! But then to put into perspective, while I have dogs for many years....it has normally been one at a time ( till recently) and therefore I have a limited range of experience. I get as far as key words and treats and that works for me, but this post got me thinking. I would be more than happy to take on a Stafford but retrain say a full on working cocker? Would be stuck ! Treats or tennis ball...easily pleased!


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## firm (24 February 2013)

We had a JRT we could not let off the lead and we did go to dog trainers to no avail. We managed to solve it because he was basically a fixated hunter/killer and so we started killing mice and rats with him using the command "check it out". I didn't enjoy it but he loved it!  Then it progressed that I could let him off the lead and if we saw his attention was wandering I could point at something close to me and say check it out and he would come to me and have his lead clipped on. 50% of the time "check it out" was used as a recall and the other 50% he really did get a chance to hunt and kill.  I am no dog expert and someone will probably tell me how wrong that was but it worked for him


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## Nikki J (25 February 2013)

CaveCanem said:



			E-collars on a light setting, introduced correctly and used as an attention grabber rather than BAD DOG - ZAP! are a very useful tool.

I love the 'your dog isn't trained' argument. Sometimes you can't fight with genetics, sometimes you can't fight with ingrained behaviour. I'd rather be safe than sorry, there are plenty of ways to tire a dog than letting them bimble around at their own leisure off lead (there's another sweeping statement, for balance )
		
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Yup, e-collars used correctly are great.  And I do agree with your genetics point, for sure with dogs like huskies and mals, they are indeed a handful where recall is concerned.  Like many breeds, they literally "go deaf" when they are onto the trail of something, or they simply just want to run.  This is where the e collar comes in ... a gentle reminder - it could even be a simple vibrate - will remind them that if they continue with this undesirable behaviour, a correction will follow.

My dogs don't "bimble around" - they are both incredibly active, racing up and down after balls and sticks, or working together sniffing out exciting scents!  They very rarely, if ever, walk when they are off lead!  Their slowest pace is trot.  And both are extremely obedient ... even when they take off after deer, within a few strides they are coming back.  I could not condemn them to a life of the lead, unless they were worked in harness which I wouldn't be able to afford.  We do take them out for long bike rides along the canals - we go for miles and they canter along with us quite happily, jumping in and out of the water as the mood takes them, they love it.


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## Nikki J (25 February 2013)

firm said:



			We had a JRT we could not let off the lead and we did go to dog trainers to no avail. We managed to solve it because he was basically a fixated hunter/killer and so we started killing mice and rats with him using the command "check it out". I didn't enjoy it but he loved it!  Then it progressed that I could let him off the lead and if we saw his attention was wandering I could point at something close to me and say check it out and he would come to me and have his lead clipped on. 50% of the time "check it out" was used as a recall and the other 50% he really did get a chance to hunt and kill.  I am no dog expert and someone will probably tell me how wrong that was but it worked for him 

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Sounds brilliant!!  If it works for you, then it must be good.  The dog's happy because he is doing what he was bred for, and you are happy because you can get him to come when you want him to - well done you!


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## Nikki J (25 February 2013)

Bille said:



			You are right CaveCanem. Some breeds are not as easily trained as others. 

I have Alaskan Malamutes (mine were always OFF the lead dogs) much to the disapproval of other sled dog owners but they will be put on the lead near other dogs, joggers and live stock. 

However just because some dogs are very difficult to train, does not mean we should not make a serious effort to do so!!!

I agree every dog owner should do the responsible thing and keep their dogs under control and at least clip them on the lead when they see another dog...

Quite frankly I'm sick and tired of all manor of dogs running up to mine, with the owner shouting from the distance "HE'S ALRIGHT"!!!!
		
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I get a lot of flack with my mal crosses, but if I had a pure mal, and I really hope I will one day, it would most definitely be allowed off the lead.  Like you, I have to recall my dogs and put them on the lead when we see other dogs coming, and of course around livestock.  They are fine with joggers, they take no notice unless they have a dog with them, but horses they adore and we have to make sure that they don't rush up and spook them.  Horses seem to love them as well, but not if they were galloping across the field towards them - which they would do i am sure if they were not leashed.

I personally will not accept that any dog is untrainable - as a last resort, the e collar is a great tool - but I am sure that there must be a few rare cases when they are just hobos, and that's the end of it.  With both dogs and horses, I never say never!


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## CorvusCorax (25 February 2013)

The 'bimbling' comment was a sweeping statement to counter the previous sweeping statement that people who err on the side of caution with unreliable dogs can't be bothered to train them. 

I know people at the top of their game internationally who are not arrogant enough, despite all their titles and shiny bling, to say that their dog is 'fully trained' because a 'fully trained' dog does not exist.
Even world champions train a little bit, every day.

And e-collars are not a failsafe - the drive of some dogs to chase will carry them through the discomfort. 

I know plenty of people who let their dogs run free because they 'can't be bothered' to teach them how to walk on a loose line and just take the lead off for an easy life/to spare their arms


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## Nikki J (25 February 2013)

CaveCanem said:



			The 'bimbling' comment was a sweeping statement to counter the previous sweeping statement that people who err on the side of caution with unreliable dogs can't be bothered to train them. 

I know people at the top of their game internationally who are not arrogant enough, despite all their titles and shiny bling, to say that their dog is 'fully trained' because a 'fully trained' dog does not exist.
Even world champions train a little bit, every day.

And e-collars are not a failsafe - the drive of some dogs to chase will carry them through the discomfort. 

I know plenty of people who let their dogs run free because they 'can't be bothered' to teach them how to walk on a loose line and just take the lead off for an easy life/to spare their arms 

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Lol!!  I gettit now!!  Yup, I agree entirely about dogs - there is no such thing as a 100% perfect dog 100% of the time.  I cringe when I see people walking their dogs off road on a busy thoroughfare - they say that their dogs are totally obedient, but I am not sure whether any dog would ignore a rabbit, cat, fox, or some other crittur leaping up under their noses and dashing across a main road - this is an awful lot to ask of the most obedient dog, and whereas I am sure such paragons of virtue must exist, I personally would never risk walking any dog off lead on or next to a road ... even with an e collar on!

If you know what you're doing and how to effectively use the collar, there are not many dogs who would be able to ignore a "sustain" ... this is where in an emergency situation - such as the dog is about to run across a main road, a railway line, or get into a flock of sheep and cause mayhem and he is totally ignoring you - you apply a prolonged zap, set at the level of your choice.  This sounds horrendous, but even with our very disobedient, very DA, very stroppy wolf cross, he has never had to have a "sustain".  I would claim that e collars ARE failsafe ... as long as the battery is charged, and you have fitted the collar correctly - you can test whether it is working by pressing the vibrate button and see if you can feel it whilst it is round the dog's neck.  You must of course make sure it is fully functional and switched on - if it is, then I would say the device is 100% failsafe, as long as you know how to use it properly.

I agree about lazy people who can't be bothered to train a proper recall!


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## MurphysMinder (25 February 2013)

I have just shared a post on facebook about 2 GSDs who went off after a fox yesterday and are still missing.  That is the reason Evie stays on a long line unless I am absolutely sure it is safe.  She thinks she is half foxhound and has disappeared after foxes more than once.  I have always been hot on her heels and got her back fairly quickly but now I don't risk it, she can run free all she wants in our fields, other than that she stays on.  Luckily Freya doesn't have the same instinct and has a pretty good recall (so far).


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## WelshD (25 February 2013)

I find with my terrier that I have a very small window of opportunity to recall him when he sees or smells something exciting.

He runs free in our securely fenced field but is walked on a lunge rein elsewhere


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## CorvusCorax (25 February 2013)

Nikki J said:



			I would claim that e collars ARE failsafe ... as long as the battery is charged, and you have fitted the collar correctly - you can test whether it is working by pressing the vibrate button and see if you can feel it whilst it is round the dog's neck.  You must of course make sure it is fully functional and switched on - if it is, then I would say the device is 100% failsafe, as long as you know how to use it properly.
		
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Anyone I know who uses one with success always tries it on themselves first every time, and some people spend weeks if not months introducing the collar in association with a normal flat collar before they ever press anything, so the dog associates the NORMAL collar with the buzz or just to have the dog wearing the collar with no buzz sometimes. 
If all the dog gets is a buzz when a certain collar is on, a smart dog will make the link. Which can be a good or a bad thing!!

There are also elements like coat type/thickness and if the dog is wet or not which can impact on how well it can work or not.


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## g3mm4 (25 February 2013)

Sadly last Tuesday I saw the result of a dog not being under proper control - a rottie in a field of sheep. He wsn't hunting them but sadly he did maul two (one fatally) - the second time he had done it. His owner wouldn't go in the field with the sheep as she was scared of them. 

Luckily four of the sheep were hand reared and came running over to me when I called the dog - he followed and when I yelled sit when he was 3ft from me he did - but to late - he had sadly signed his death warrant - he was 18 months old. We have 3000 sheep and lots of deer around (and main roads as well as lanes) the owners decided they had no option other than to pts.


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## CorvusCorax (25 February 2013)

Sad for all concerned x


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## lexiedhb (26 February 2013)

g3mm4 said:



			Sadly last Tuesday I saw the result of a dog not being under proper control - a rottie in a field of sheep. He wsn't hunting them but sadly he did maul two (one fatally) - the second time he had done it. His owner wouldn't go in the field with the sheep as she was scared of them. 

Luckily four of the sheep were hand reared and came running over to me when I called the dog - he followed and when I yelled sit when he was 3ft from me he did - but to late - he had sadly signed his death warrant - he was 18 months old. We have 3000 sheep and lots of deer around (and main roads as well as lanes) the owners decided they had no option other than to pts.
		
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Or have kept said poor dog on a long line after the first incident............... how sad.


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## Alec Swan (26 February 2013)

To be perfectly truthful,  and having suffered at the hands of dog owners who have no business keeping dogs,  I don't actually see it as particularly sad.  I wonder if the owner of the sheep was offered compensation.  Having had lambing ewes killed and crippled,  and having the owners of the dogs deny all responsibility,  I have little sympathy with the dog or its owner.

I suspect that most who keep sheep would shrug their shoulders over the death of the dog.  

Alec.


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## CorvusCorax (26 February 2013)

Alec, I said sad for ALL concerned, including the sheep owner, and more for the dog than the owner, around here it would probably not have got the second chance.


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## Shutterbug (26 February 2013)

I have a malamute and hes not great off leash - we have worked extremely hard at his recall and have some but its not good enough IMO.  So he gets off the leash now and again under very secure circumstances and not near any livestock or roads.  This obviously limits us but we have found that the newly built railway has a cycle path alongside which is all new and shiny - its fenced extremely well - 6' on the side of the railway and a loch on the other side which is perfectly safe for him to jump in and out of - further along there are some fields but the fencing seems to be designed to keep other animals out and has no livestock in it anyway - so that's where he goes for his 20 mins off leash work when its really quiet - I often go when its raining as I know we are less likely to meet other dogs too.  So far so good but I am extremely vigilant with him


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## Nikki J (26 February 2013)

CaveCanem said:



			Anyone I know who uses one with success always tries it on themselves first every time, and some people spend weeks if not months introducing the collar in association with a normal flat collar before they ever press anything, so the dog associates the NORMAL collar with the buzz or just to have the dog wearing the collar with no buzz sometimes. 
If all the dog gets is a buzz when a certain collar is on, a smart dog will make the link. Which can be a good or a bad thing!!

There are also elements like coat type/thickness and if the dog is wet or not which can impact on how well it can work or not.
		
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But us humans do not have a double thick wolf coat, like my boy, so there is little point adjusting it according to our arm, or back of the hand.  We have tested it on ourselves just to see what it feels like, and it is nowhere near as unpleasant as you would think.  with the protection of a thick layer of fur, to a dog it is more of a jump than actual pain per se.  You have to be extremely careful in doing your homework before you commence using an e collar.  As you rightly point out, an intelligent dog is quite capable of rationalisation of thought, and my boy falls into that category.  He seems to "know" when hubby has just strapped it round his neck, but not turned it on.

The most important thing with the e collar is not to use it in earnest during a dog fight.  Our boy is very male DA, and in particular has a hatred of black labradors and spaniels.  Once or twice hubby has been caught napping, and has rounded a corner with the boys off lead and bang - there is a black labrador.  If you are quick enough, you can get a recall before the red mist comes down, but if you are not, and our boy managed to pounce on the poor labrador, then it would be too late then to enforce the e collar because all you would do is to escalate the attack - on such an occasion, OH would have to dive in and grab the dog and pull him away, something which is not adviseable but would be necessary to protect the other dog.  Luckily our boy does not bite, he pins, but weighing in at 45 kilos he could do a lot of damage with his powerful claws, so hubby has to be extremely careful.  Luckily, this is a hypothetical scenario, but we are more than aware of the importance of the dog having an instant recall to avoid such unpleasant situations.

You are quite correct as well about the thickness of the dog's coat - which is why we have to be so careful when fitting our dog's collar.  He has a double wolf coat, and it is vital to make sure that you have a good contact with the skin because otherwise you might hurt the dog - also, with them diving in and out of the canal, although the Dogtra is waterproof, you need to bear in mind that if the dog is now soaking wet a lower level should be all that is necessary.  The idea is not to hurt the dog, but to pull him short metaphorically speaking if and when he gets onto the trail of a deer, or goes to speak to another dog.


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## Nikki J (26 February 2013)

Hevs said:



			I have a malamute and hes not great off leash - we have worked extremely hard at his recall and have some but its not good enough IMO.  So he gets off the leash now and again under very secure circumstances and not near any livestock or roads.  This obviously limits us but we have found that the newly built railway has a cycle path alongside which is all new and shiny - its fenced extremely well - 6' on the side of the railway and a loch on the other side which is perfectly safe for him to jump in and out of - further along there are some fields but the fencing seems to be designed to keep other animals out and has no livestock in it anyway - so that's where he goes for his 20 mins off leash work when its really quiet - I often go when its raining as I know we are less likely to meet other dogs too.  So far so good but I am extremely vigilant with him
		
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Sounds fantastic Hevs - as long as a dog gets at least some off lead work, I think you are being a very responsible dog owner.  We have a disused railway line near us which runs from Northampton to Market Harborough and it has been specially designed for horse riders, walkers and cyclists.  It is well-fenced and you can bike for many miles up to MH and back, and the dogs love it.  There are several streams and water splashes along the route, just perfect for my mally crosses!


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## Nikki J (26 February 2013)

g3mm4 said:



			Sadly last Tuesday I saw the result of a dog not being under proper control - a rottie in a field of sheep. He wsn't hunting them but sadly he did maul two (one fatally) - the second time he had done it. His owner wouldn't go in the field with the sheep as she was scared of them. 

Luckily four of the sheep were hand reared and came running over to me when I called the dog - he followed and when I yelled sit when he was 3ft from me he did - but to late - he had sadly signed his death warrant - he was 18 months old. We have 3000 sheep and lots of deer around (and main roads as well as lanes) the owners decided they had no option other than to pts.
		
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What an absolutely disgraceful story!!  That poor dog - her DUTY was to get in there and fetch her dog - if she is too scared of sheep, then she certainly should not have a dog like a Rottie who although have a very bad press, do need a lot of handling.  Thanks to her, her beautiful dog is dead, and I do not condemn the farmer in any way - although I am a bit puzzled as to why the owners put the dog to sleep.  I am assuming the farmer insisted on it, which you cannot blame him for?  Anyone who is stupid enough to allow this to happen not once but twice, and also be too terrified of sheep to go rescue their dog, is likely more than capable of being stupid enough to allow it to happen a third time.  We all know the rules, we know the rules of the countryside, and when you are around sheep, you keep your dogs under control ... end of.  One of my boys is a sheep chaser, we discovered this very soon after adopting him, and now he is never allowed anywhere near sheep off lead or under very strict control.


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## CorvusCorax (26 February 2013)

Nikki J said:



			But us humans do not have a double thick wolf coat, like my boy, so there is little point adjusting it according to our arm, or back of the hand.  We have tested it on ourselves just to see what it feels like, and it is nowhere near as unpleasant as you would think. 

The most important thing with the e collar is not to use it in earnest during a dog fight.
		
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- I meant testing it to see if it is working at the level you want it to work at.

- I can't imagine why anyone would want to use one during a dog fight!!

I've tried them on myself a number of times, but I don't use one on my current dog.


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## wench (26 February 2013)

Simple solution to the problem... dogs should be kept on a lead in public places at all times.


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## Shutterbug (26 February 2013)

Nikki J said:



			Sounds fantastic Hevs - as long as a dog gets at least some off lead work, I think you are being a very responsible dog owner.  We have a disused railway line near us which runs from Northampton to Market Harborough and it has been specially designed for horse riders, walkers and cyclists.  It is well-fenced and you can bike for many miles up to MH and back, and the dogs love it.  There are several streams and water splashes along the route, just perfect for my mally crosses!
		
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There's nothing quite like watching him enjoy having a run around and knowing hes safe and all the local sheep are safe too - the other day a train driver decided to honk his big old train horn - never seen my dog jump so high and run behind my legs like that ever lol


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## lexiedhb (26 February 2013)

Nikki J said:



			But us humans do not have a double thick wolf coat, like my boy, so there is little point adjusting it according to our arm, or back of the hand.  We have tested it on ourselves just to see what it feels like, and it is nowhere near as unpleasant as you would think.  with the protection of a thick layer of fur, to a dog it is more of a jump than actual pain per se.  You have to be extremely careful in doing your homework before you commence using an e collar.  As you rightly point out, an intelligent dog is quite capable of rationalisation of thought, and my boy falls into that category.  He seems to "know" when hubby has just strapped it round his neck, but not turned it on.

The most important thing with the e collar is not to use it in earnest during a dog fight.  Our boy is very male DA, and in particular has a hatred of black labradors and spaniels.  Once or twice hubby has been caught napping, and has rounded a corner with the boys off lead and bang - there is a black labrador.  If you are quick enough, you can get a recall before the red mist comes down, but if you are not, and our boy managed to pounce on the poor labrador, then it would be too late then to enforce the e collar because all you would do is to escalate the attack - on such an occasion, OH would have to dive in and grab the dog and pull him away, something which is not adviseable but would be necessary to protect the other dog.  Luckily our boy does not bite, he pins, but weighing in at 45 kilos he could do a lot of damage with his powerful claws, so hubby has to be extremely careful.  Luckily, this is a hypothetical scenario, but we are more than aware of the importance of the dog having an instant recall to avoid such unpleasant situations.

You are quite correct as well about the thickness of the dog's coat - which is why we have to be so careful when fitting our dog's collar.  He has a double wolf coat, and it is vital to make sure that you have a good contact with the skin because otherwise you might hurt the dog - also, with them diving in and out of the canal, although the Dogtra is waterproof, you need to bear in mind that if the dog is now soaking wet a lower level should be all that is necessary.  The idea is not to hurt the dog, but to pull him short metaphorically speaking if and when he gets onto the trail of a deer, or goes to speak to another dog.
		
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If you have a known DA dog why on earth would you be walking it off lead anywhere where there is the potential for it to meet another dog??


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## g3mm4 (26 February 2013)

Nikki J said:



			What an absolutely disgraceful story!!  That poor dog - her DUTY was to get in there and fetch her dog - if she is too scared of sheep, then she certainly should not have a dog like a Rottie who although have a very bad press, do need a lot of handling.  Thanks to her, her beautiful dog is dead, and I do not condemn the farmer in any way - although I am a bit puzzled as to why the owners put the dog to sleep.  I am assuming the farmer insisted on it, which you cannot blame him for?  Anyone who is stupid enough to allow this to happen not once but twice, and also be too terrified of sheep to go rescue their dog, is likely more than capable of being stupid enough to allow it to happen a third time.  We all know the rules, we know the rules of the countryside, and when you are around sheep, you keep your dogs under control ... end of.  One of my boys is a sheep chaser, we discovered this very soon after adopting him, and now he is never allowed anywhere near sheep off lead or under very strict control.
		
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Firstly the owner was clearly terrified of sheep - the rottie was the third or 4th she and her partner have had. The first time the dog went after the sheep her partners son was walking him and he bolted after a deer and found the sheep. On this occaision the dog was in the kitchen with her and escaped. 

We did not insist on the dog being destroyed - far from it I emailed them details of various rottie rescues but they felt they could not move him on (they had had him 6months having got him from a house in Bristol where he was kept in a yard and not walked). 

We have a man locally who has a GSP he lets it out of his car, plugs the ear phones in and sets off head-down for his walk - the dog by then is about 3 fields away or playing chicken in the road with tractors and cars - that's what it is bred to do so why should he stop it is his comment when told to control it.


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## Alec Swan (26 February 2013)

CaveCanem said:



			Anyone I know who uses one with success always tries it on themselves first every time, ........
		
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So let me get this straight,  and out of a genuine interest,  would you say that an electric shock inducing collar is a tool which others use,  as in a considered daily usage,  or something which the users "Resort" to?  In other words,  is it there when all else fails,  or is it a convenience?  

Having never used one,  I'm interested.

Alec.


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## CorvusCorax (26 February 2013)

I've never used one either so you would have to ask those that do! I'd say the answer is both.

Don't forget, they don't just induce 'electric shocks', they can be set to beep only or can be set with a variety of vibrations. 
You can actually use the vibration setting to let the dog know they have done something good at a distance, as well as using them to get the dog's attention, people with deaf dogs use them as a form of clicker with the vibration. I think that's called 'thinking outside the box'!

I know there are people on here who claim to have only ever had to use one once, but as with any piece of equipment, it's ideal that you introduce it slowly and with an aim in mind, rather than just slapping it on and off you go. Doing that with a nervy dog will freak them out, doing it with a clever dog will make them equipment-wise.

The reason I'm told you should try them on yourself before you put it on the dog is to check that it is working in the first place, or it hasn't for some reason leapt up to level 10 or whatever.


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## Adopter (26 February 2013)

g3mm4 said:



			Firstly the owner was clearly terrified of sheep - the rottie was the third or 4th she and her partner have had. The first time the dog went after the sheep her partners son was walking him and he bolted after a deer and found the sheep. On this occaision the dog was in the kitchen with her and escaped. 

We did not insist on the dog being destroyed - far from it I emailed them details of various rottie rescues but they felt they could not move him on (they had had him 6months having got him from a house in Bristol where he was kept in a yard and not walked). 

We have a man locally who has a GSP he lets it out of his car, plugs the ear phones in and sets off head-down for his walk - the dog by then is about 3 fields away or playing chicken in the road with tractors and cars - that's what it is bred to do so why should he stop it is his comment when told to control it.
		
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I think you have been very understanding, what a sad story and owner who should have known better. 
We suffer the same way here, my neighbour is a sheep farmer and part of the Staffordshire way crosses the field under our wall, the things we see are always down to inconsiderate humans more than the dogs,after many incidents and owners who refuse to take responsibility, the footpath has now been fenced off with electic fencing to keep the sheep safe.  We still get the  yells and yelps as we hear as people who  let their dogs and children run and then they hit the electric fence, even though there are warning signs.


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## Alec Swan (26 February 2013)

Alec Swan said:



			So let me get this straight,  and out of a genuine interest,  would you say that an electric shock inducing collar is a tool which others use,  as in a considered daily usage,  or something which the users "Resort" to?  In other words,  is it there when all else fails,  or is it a convenience?  

Alec.
		
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C_C,  you've yet to answer my question.  Is the Electric Collar viewed by its users as a daily and usable tool,  or as a last resort?

I'm genuinely interested to learn.

Alec.


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## ILuvCowparsely (26 February 2013)

tessybear said:



			Does anyone else have a dog like this, our GSP cannot be trusted off the lead because once she has the scent of something she turns off and no matter how many times you shout her name and flap your arms she keeps on going. Not to bad when you're in the middle of fields but clearly if there are any forms of roads or live stock near by it becomes dangerous. 

However over the past 3/4 years after she had got the scent of the rabbit or whatever she had been chasing she would run back towards us but would never come close enough to catch her. She acts like she was worried about being told off and would hang back.

Now we have moved and are nearer to roads that people fly down at stupid speeds she must stay on the stretchy lead whilst her Jack russel friend is off, she does go off the lead down the stock fenced 2 acre padock.

Does anyone else have a dog they simply cannot trust off lead ?
		
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yes mym mums dog is like this runs off wont come back


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## CorvusCorax (26 February 2013)

Alec Swan said:



			C_C,  you've yet to answer my question.  Is the Electric Collar viewed by its users as a daily and usable tool,  or as a last resort?

I'm genuinely interested to learn.

Alec.
		
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I did, and I also say you should ask the question and hopefully get an answer from someone who actually uses one *(NikkiJ, any chance??!! ), because I don't, I would say again that the answer is both, depending on who is using it and why - a person with a deaf dog in training would probably use one every day until the link is made with a hand signal, a person who wants to use it for livestock training would say they would only want to use it once.

Different people use them on different dogs for different reasons. 

My dog wears a large link choke chain every day, because it's waterproof, mudproof, seawater-proof and adjustable and I can click the lead onto any link rather than fumbling for one D-ring, someone else might use one only once or twice as a training aid to get it to heel/control it.


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## eatmyshorts (26 February 2013)

Alec Swan said:



			C_C,  you've yet to answer my question.  Is the Electric Collar viewed by its users as a daily and usable tool,  or as a last resort?

I'm genuinely interested to learn.

Alec.
		
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Allow me Alec. Personally, & as described, i've used an e-collar on a low shock setting (it has 100 levels, i used level 17) when one of my GSP's wasn't responding to me at any distance. It was a last resort, & i tried it on vibrate first, which had no effect. I tested the level on my husband first to make sure it wasn't too high . i also used it in an enclosed area first (my garden) to ensure she wasn't going to take fright & bolt when i first activated it. I joked that it just allowed me to kick her butt & pay attention from a distance! I think she wore it on perhaps 3 or 4 walks & had the shock button pressed maybe about the same amount of times - that's all she needed. I don't believe in any training methods which are either all carrot or all stick, so to speak, so when she recalled, she was also always rewarded with a treat or a play with a tennis ball.

My dogs prey drive is quite high but i normally manage to curb it - i had my lurcher, my staffie X & my other GSP in the woods one day when a deer jumped out literally 20ft in front of us. All three dogs saw it, but none of them gave chase as i yelled a very firm Leave It command. The wayward GSP wasn't with us at that point & as yet hasn't had such a test, but i'm quite confident she'd pass these days too.


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## Alec Swan (26 February 2013)

Alec Swan said:



			C_C,  you've yet to answer my question.  Is the Electric Collar viewed by its users as a daily and usable tool,  or as a last resort?

I'm genuinely interested to learn.

Alec.
		
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CaveCanem said:



			I did, and I also say you should ask the question and hopefully get an answer from someone who actually uses one *.......

........
		
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I'm sorry,  but you haven't answered my question.  You've defended the use of such a tool,  which is why I asked you the question.  You've said that I should ask those who actually use one,  which would imply that you don't.  Why would you defend the use of a tool when you yourself don't use one?

I'll accept that in the most extreme of cases,  and in the hands of those who I doubt are on here,  there may be a limited excuse.  There will be no place for such a barbaric tool in the hands of those who know what they're doing.  

I'm sorry,  but that's the truth.

Alec.

ETS.  If you'd rather continue this by PM,  that's fine with me. a.


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## CorvusCorax (26 February 2013)

Alec Swan said:



			I'm sorry,  but you haven't answered my question.  You've defended the use of such a tool,  which is why I asked you the question.  You've said that I should ask those who actually use one,  which would imply that you don't.  Why would you defend the use of a tool when you yourself don't use one?

I'll accept that in the most extreme of cases,  and in the hands of those who I doubt are on here,  there may be a limited excuse.  There will be no place for such a barbaric tool in the hands of those who know what they're doing.  

I'm sorry,  but that's the truth.

Alec.

ETS.  If you'd rather continue this by PM,  that's fine with me. a.
		
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No, let's keep it on here, it's an interesting discussion.

I cannot answer a question about the use of a tool I don't use - I've been very open about the fact that I DON'T use one (I think about three times on this thread alone) and that these are just my opinions. I don't use one because I don't feel that I need to use one and I would not be confident about my own timing.

I'm not 'defending' or indeed promoting them, I'm writing about what I know about them. I have spoken with people who have used them for a variety of reasons and I have listened and learned a lot from them.
There is no barbarism in my eyes in the way that they are being used by the people I have spoken to (NOT - Bad dog - ZAP), I do not agree that something that beeps or vibrates is barbaric. 
I'll 'defend' the right of those who want to use a pelham or spurs or a dressage whip - I don't even have a horse!

At the end of the day, I'm just a person with a dog, learning stuff all the time the same as the rest of us


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## Alec Swan (27 February 2013)

CaveCanem said:



			No, let's keep it on here, it's an interesting discussion.

I cannot answer a question about the use of a tool I don't use - I've been very open about the fact that I DON'T use one (I think about three times on this thread alone) and that these are just my opinions. 

*OK,  so you've never used one.*

I'm not 'defending' or indeed promoting them, I'm writing about what I know about them. I have spoken with people who have used them for a variety of reasons and I have listened and learned a lot from them.

*I too have listened to others,  and like you,  I've learned.  We seem to have looked at different pictures.*

......., I do not agree that something that beeps or vibrates is barbaric. 

*I agree with you,  but then wonder why they have a MAX setting.  I'll also point out that you manage to train a dog,  without such a device,  as I and MOST others do.*

I'll 'defend' the right of those who want to use a pelham or spurs or a dressage whip - I don't even have a horse!

*A dog is generally voice controlled.  A horse is controlled with the riders hands and legs and seat.  They are two,  though parallel,  separate disciplines.*

At the end of the day, I'm just a person with a dog, learning stuff all the time the same as the rest of us  

*As you say,  as the rest of us do,  and from my limited experience,  there are those training aids which should have no place with the competent dog trainer.*

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There-yer-go,  we'll agree to disagree. 

Alec.


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## CorvusCorax (27 February 2013)

Okie dokes, I think it's true that we humans all learn differently and see different pictures, a bit like our dogs!

Goodnight Mr Swann


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## Dry Rot (27 February 2013)

I found this.... Sorry it's a bit long!



The Electric Collar  
Many successful trainers will tell you that "punishment" needs to be administered as close as possible to the moment the "crime" is committed. My philosophy of dog training doesn't assume dogs commit "crimes" any more than they know that they have "done wrong" or need "punishment". 

Dogs know nothing about human morals. Dogs follow their natural predatory instincts and these are moulded in training to suit our human purposes. That apart, the electric collar seems a most wonderful instrument because you can administer an electric shock to the dog at a considerable distance at "the right moment". At least, that's what is says in the glossy brochures.

Those who are in favour of the electric collar tell me I don't understand. For the record, I was the first person to import one into Scotland back in 1972. I have owned at least four different makes since and several different models. I live in sheep and deer country and we used to kill 1,200 mountain hares in two days when hares were considered vermin and had to be controlled. Yet I now find I have no need of an electric collar. How's that?

Mr Robert Wehle of the famous Elhew pointer kennel in the USA also condemns their use. Those who use electric collars have very little knowledge of canine psychology or they are professionals who train dogs which are totally screwed up mentally anyway. 

I have just had an email from a lady in the USA who hunts a pack of hounds. She asks why it is that gundog owners need an e-collar to control one dog when she can control a pack of 50 hounds without one! Good question! Have a look at my videos and see what I achieve without electric collars. I would not bother housing and feeding such an ill bred brute that required such methods to train it! So why are they in such general use and so widely recommended?

The Official view on the use of electric collars for dog training in the UK
Several police officers recently received a three year prison sentence in the UK for beating and abusing their dogs. With reference to this, here is an extract from Hansard "House of Commons written answers for 3rd November 1999" (that is, a report from our British Parliament).

Electric Shock Dog Collar

Mr. Rendel: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department if the Prison Service still has an electric shock dog collar in its possession; and how many times such a collar has been used since November 1998. [97109]

Mr. Boateng: The Prison Service is no longer in possession of an electric shock dog collar. Records held at the National Dog Training Centre indicate that the collar was used seven times on six dogs between March 1993 and July 1995. The electric collar was to be used only when authorised by the head of the National Dog Training Centre. It was used on adult dogs as part of a training course or remedial training and only as a last resort, when other methods of correcting a dog in control-related exercises had failed. The collar has not been used since 6 July 1995. On 14 April 1999, an amendment was made to Prison Service orders. It instructed that electric collars were not to be used, under any circumstances, on Prison Service dogs during training.

Mr. Rendel: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department how many police forces have an electric shock dog collar; and how many times such a device has been used since July 1998. [97110]

Mr. Charles Clarke: Of the 43 police forces in England and Wales, 20 possess electric shock dog collars for use in training. The device has been used by eight forces on a total of 37 occasions since July 1998. I understand that the relevant committee of the Association of Chief Police Officers is to review the use of this item.



Here are a few facts....

Fact 1:  The electric collar is a small tin box containing electronic components which is strapped to the dog's neck. A hand held transmitter sends a pulse which causes the collar to give an electric shock to the dog. These instruments probably cost a few pounds sterling (a few dollars) to make yet sell for a starting price at least twenty times that. So the manufacturers have huge profits out of which to pay for widespread promotions, advertising, seminars, free videos, etc. 

Hunting and dog magazines profit from the advertising revenue these companies generate so most do not discourage their use and the irresponsible publications won't even allow reasoned debate in case it cuts advertising income.

Fact 2: Scientific studies shown that harsh training methods usually have side effects which may not surface for years and then do so usually in some unpredictable way. Use an electric collar and you will be creating more problems long term and possibly ruining the dog short term. The better dogs are usually the quickest spoilt.

Fact 3: The mere act of strapping an electric collar onto your dog's neck changes the environment in which the dog is being trained. The collar is very noticeable to the dog. The whole point of using any corrective device (e.g. the check cord) is that the dog should not be aware that there is anything unusual going on. Very soon you will find that your dog won't work as you wish unless he is wearing the collar. This regular use leads to the collar contacts setting up an irritation of the skin which can lead to infection. How do I know this? Read above: I have veterinary training and personal experience of their use!

Fact 4: The collars are unreliable. Although the electronics has improved dramatically, there are other factors involved. A dog's coat is a great insulator and the probes need to be up tight against the neck to be sure of making a good contact every time. You think your dog won't notice this? Again, you are changing that environmental factor.

Fact 5: You won't know the effect of an electric shock to your dog until it's too late because you simply cannot predict that reaction. Guess wrong and you have created problems in the training program most won't need or possibly caused irreversible trauma in your dog. How is it we never read about these dogs? They undoubtedly exist.

Fact 6: None of the official dog training organisations (e.g. police, RAF, sniffer dogs, rescue dogs, guide dogs for the blind, hearing dogs for the deaf, the vast majority of shepherds, hunt kennels, etc.) find they need to use electric collars. Corporal punishment was abandoned in schools long ago in civilised countries -- because it doesn't work! 

Occasionally I get emails from American trainers who tell me I still don't know what I am talking about. If what you say is correct, please take it up with Mr Robert Wehle of Elhew pointers who doesn't appear to approve of electric collars any more than I do. Mr Wehle has unprecedented experience of breeding and training bird dogs in your native land so please don't bother me.

Do I need to go on? If a dog cannot be trained humanely, there is either something wrong with the trainer and/or his methods -- or something seriously wrong with the dog's breeding. In either case, the solution is clear. But sadly there will always be some who are so low on the human social hierarchy that they need something small and defenceless like a dog to dominate to keep themselves off the bottom of the heap!


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## Nikki J (27 February 2013)

CaveCanem said:



			- I meant testing it to see if it is working at the level you want it to work at.

- I can't imagine why anyone would want to use one during a dog fight!!

I've tried them on myself a number of times, but I don't use one on my current dog.
		
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I know -- it would be the very worst thing you could do quite simply because the dog wearing the collar would think that the other dog was inflicting the discomfort.  Once a dog is in full fight mode, the red mist descends and you as the handler have blown it by not using the e collar if necessary to ensure that your dog is fully under control.  The e collar is very much a prevention with a capital P, and a cure with a small c.  If you are using it correctly, you should very quickly get to the stage when you will rarely have to give your dog a correction.  You have to stick to the use of the same tone and word to get the dog to come ... we quite simply say "Ben ... COME!" ... and instantly he will turn and come back to you ... whatever he may be doing.  The dog quickly has this embedded in his brain, and as I say we very rarely have had to enforce the e collar on our boy Ben after the initial session.


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## Nikki J (27 February 2013)

wench said:



			Simple solution to the problem... dogs should be kept on a lead in public places at all times.
		
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Why?  I might counter to your unreasonable statement and say "all young children should be kept on walking reins in public places at all times".


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## Nikki J (27 February 2013)

Hevs said:



			There's nothing quite like watching him enjoy having a run around and knowing hes safe and all the local sheep are safe too - the other day a train driver decided to honk his big old train horn - never seen my dog jump so high and run behind my legs like that ever lol 

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Aaah!!  Poor thing!!  He must have been petrified!!


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## Nikki J (27 February 2013)

lexiedhb said:



			If you have a known DA dog why on earth would you be walking it off lead anywhere where there is the potential for it to meet another dog??
		
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That's a bit of an aggressive question without learning some of the FACTS first isn't it??! 

When we first rescued Ben, we had no idea.  We already had another dog, a large entire male mally cross, and to start with there was a bit of tension between the 2 dogs - Ben is castrated - and although they had several quite severe scraps between the 2 of them, Ben was fine with other dogs on and off lead.  However, as soon as the 2 boys really bonded as a pack and knuckled down to the hierarchical domination of Tai as Bossman with the Balls, and Ben as the underdog, this is when the trouble stated.  Ben started to be the Pack Defender, defending his pack leader Tai against all intruders.

At this point, OH started to walk the boys where he was unlikely to meet other people, and where there are rolling hills - making it easy to see who is coming.  Then we got to the stage where Ben was not coming when he was called, which with a DA dog is obviously totally unacceptable, and this scenario ended with the dog either having to be put down or kept on a lead for the rest of his life, neither of which options were acceptable to us, so this is when hubby consulted with 2 dog behaviourists - one of whom said the dog should be destroyed, the other said you will never train a reliable recall without resorting to an e collar, which in any case they did not approve of and would have nothing to do with.  OH is a medical scientist, with an honours degree specialising in mammalian physiology and zoology, so he did his research etc. etc. and to cut a very long story short, became an expert in the correct use of an e collar - and the rest, as they say, is history.  A very very happy dog with a very reliable recall ...!

So please don't be judgemental - we have been through hell with Ben, but we now have a fantastically obedient, happy dog who can be let free in the appropriate places, safe in the knowledge we can call him back the minute we see another dog coming over the horizon.


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## Nikki J (27 February 2013)

g3mm4 said:



			Firstly the owner was clearly terrified of sheep - the rottie was the third or 4th she and her partner have had. The first time the dog went after the sheep her partners son was walking him and he bolted after a deer and found the sheep. On this occaision the dog was in the kitchen with her and escaped. 

We did not insist on the dog being destroyed - far from it I emailed them details of various rottie rescues but they felt they could not move him on (they had had him 6months having got him from a house in Bristol where he was kept in a yard and not walked). 

We have a man locally who has a GSP he lets it out of his car, plugs the ear phones in and sets off head-down for his walk - the dog by then is about 3 fields away or playing chicken in the road with tractors and cars - that's what it is bred to do so why should he stop it is his comment when told to control it.
		
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I'm terrified of bullocks, having been surrounded by them when a child, but that still would not stop me from doing my duty and retrieving my dog from their midst, even though the dog would probably be at risk of injury from the bullocks, rather than the other way round!  It is very generous of you to be sympathetic with her plight, but you are too kind IMO.  That was so nice of you not to insist on the dog being destroyed, and trying to help rehome him -I can understand they felt they could not do this, I feel the same about my boy Ben.  He was and is a "difficult" dog, and I would not trust anyone else to be up to the mark with him.  Ben was kept on a long line in someone's back garden for the first 3 years of his life, no shelter, just concrete to lie on.  It is unbelievable that the dog is as well balanced as he is, which he isn't really!!  

I have no comment for the eejet man in your final paragraph ... for once words fail me!!


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## RutlandH2O (27 February 2013)

wench said:



			Simple solution to the problem... dogs should be kept on a lead in public places at all times.
		
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Bingo! ^^^This!!!


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## RutlandH2O (27 February 2013)

Nikki J said:



			Why?  I might counter to your unreasonable statement and say "all young children should be kept on walking reins in public places at all times".
		
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Nikki, wench's statement about dogs being kept on lead in public places at all times is NOT an unreasonable statement. Your analogy re: children on walking reins (THE most revolting and lazy invention) is typical of some of your other analogies (like the Western diet is comparable to McDonald's, from another thread). To equate young children with aggressive, uncontrollable dogs is simply off the wall!


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## tessybear (27 February 2013)

We keep Holly on the lead, for her own safety than anything else would rather have to take her out more times on the lead then let her off and risk her getting ran over or causing issues with livestock !!


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## tessybear (27 February 2013)

RutlandH2O said:



			Nikki, wench's statement about dogs being kept on lead in public places at all times is NOT an unreasonable statement. Your analogy re: children on walking reins (THE most revolting and lazy invention) is typical of some of your other analogies (like the Western diet is comparable to McDonald's, from another thread). To equate young children with aggressive, uncontrollable dogs is simply off the wall!
		
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aggressive dogs IMO should be kept on the lead at all times.  Having been the victim of an aggresive dog being let off the lead and having to break up a fight between a staffie and a little jack russel i will never want to witness again.  Truth be told dogs that are aggresive to others should also be walked in a muzzle ... but then thats just my opinion


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## Superhot (27 February 2013)

There used to be a lady locally who walked her Akita cross off lead.  The dog would attack other dogs whenever it saw them.  Owners asked the Akita owner to please keep the dog under control, which she refused.  Ultimately, she was reported to the dog warden and council, and sent a letter saying her dog should be kept on a lead and muzzled at all times outside of the home, or she would be in trouble.  Result!
A customer of mine has a Husky cross BC.  She did plenty of training to which the dog was very responsive, but when it came to the recall, there was no-one at home.  Under guidance, she used an electric collar and that dog has the finest recall of any dog I've ever seen.  It only has to wear the collar, you don't actually have to press the remote.  I've always been very much against such methods, but have to admit, for this particular dog it has done the trick.  Will there be repercussions long term, I really hope not?  She's a lovely dog and they are very good owners.


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## Nikki J (27 February 2013)

Alec Swan said:



			So let me get this straight,  and out of a genuine interest,  would you say that an electric shock inducing collar is a tool which others use,  as in a considered daily usage,  or something which the users "Resort" to?  In other words,  is it there when all else fails,  or is it a convenience?  

Having never used one,  I'm interested.

Alec.
		
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Strictly speaking, e collars are not "electric" - they do not give off electrical current - I am not at all technical, OH is the electrical expert, but the "shock" that you receive is like those games children have where you have to hold a handle, a "shock" is dispensed and the last one to let go is the winner.

For us it was very much last resort - why on earth would you want to inflict discomfort on an animal unless it was absolutely unnecessary.  To give an equine example, you would not put a double bridle with pelham on a gentle old horse who was forward-going but had a soft mouth.  You would start off with a more gentle curb, such as a running martingale to stop him getting his up maybe, or do some schooling or whatever.

So with our dogs, I do not believe it to be reasonable to whack an e collar round the neck of Fido just because you cannot be bothered to take the time to train a good recall.

But as a last resort, where you are faced with never being able to let your pooch run free, to me it is a no brainer.  Expert training is required, and a good quality collar such as the Dogtra should be invested in.  We bought our's second hand - new they are hundreds, but they are the best make IMO.

Tbh, I think if you just used it "as a convenience", it would not work.  You cannot use an e collar to train a simple command like "sit", "stay" or "heel" IMO.  These commands, again only my opinion, are pretty easy to train, but I am sure there are other avid e collar fans who would disagree with me.

However, where you come onto very serious issues - like stock worrying - where you may not have time to train using gentler measures - I would fully support anyone wishing to use an e collar to avoid any accidents.


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## Nikki J (27 February 2013)

Superhot said:



			There used to be a lady locally who walked her Akita cross off lead.  The dog would attack other dogs whenever it saw them.  Owners asked the Akita owner to please keep the dog under control, which she refused.  Ultimately, she was reported to the dog warden and council, and sent a letter saying her dog should be kept on a lead and muzzled at all times outside of the home, or she would be in trouble.  Result!
A customer of mine has a Husky cross BC.  She did plenty of training to which the dog was very responsive, but when it came to the recall, there was no-one at home.  Under guidance, she used an electric collar and that dog has the finest recall of any dog I've ever seen.  It only has to wear the collar, you don't actually have to press the remote.  I've always been very much against such methods, but have to admit, for this particular dog it has done the trick.  Will there be repercussions long term, I really hope not?  She's a lovely dog and they are very good owners.
		
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Excellent news - what responsible owners!  They love their dog, and they were prepared to try something which, as with myself, was probably very distasteful, for the good of the dog.  Like this husky x, we never have to zap Ben now, but he still wears the collar just in case.


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## Nikki J (27 February 2013)

RutlandH2O said:



			Nikki, wench's statement about dogs being kept on lead in public places at all times is NOT an unreasonable statement. Your analogy re: children on walking reins (THE most revolting and lazy invention) is typical of some of your other analogies (like the Western diet is comparable to McDonald's, from another thread). To equate young children with aggressive, uncontrollable dogs is simply off the wall!
		
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No - the OP said all dogs should be kept on a lead at all times.  That is just totally unreasonable!  Which is why I made the tongue in cheek remark about kids!  I agree entirely that kids should be allowed to run free, but why is it OK that they should be able to do so, and yet my well-behaved, child friendly, obedient dogs cannot?

By public places, that means everywhere except my own private property - ipso facto, the OP was saying that ALL dogs should be kept on the lead at ALL times except when on their owner's private property - this is plain ridiculous.  But I entirely agree about dangerous dogs, disobedient dogs, dogs who chase livestock etc.


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## Nikki J (27 February 2013)

tessybear said:



			aggressive dogs IMO should be kept on the lead at all times.  Having been the victim of an aggresive dog being let off the lead and having to break up a fight between a staffie and a little jack russel i will never want to witness again.  Truth be told dogs that are aggresive to others should also be walked in a muzzle ... but then thats just my opinion 

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I totally agree, and Ben was walked in a muzzle even when on the lead for some time.  Now we don't need to do this any more.


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## Nikki J (27 February 2013)

Alec Swan said:



			I'm sorry,  but you haven't answered my question.  You've defended the use of such a tool,  which is why I asked you the question.  You've said that I should ask those who actually use one,  which would imply that you don't.  Why would you defend the use of a tool when you yourself don't use one?

I'll accept that in the most extreme of cases,  and in the hands of those who I doubt are on here,  there may be a limited excuse.  There will be no place for such a barbaric tool in the hands of those who know what they're doing.  

I'm sorry,  but that's the truth.

Alec.

ETS.  If you'd rather continue this by PM,  that's fine with me. a.
		
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I hope I've answered your question, as an avid supporter of e collars - if not, please tell me and I will attempt to do so!

They are not barbaric at all ... to me, a choke chain is far more barbaric.  To me, never letting your dog off lead is barbaric.  You need to do some research about e collars if you actually think they inflict an electric SHOCK - they do not.  If you cut a live cable in half and touch the live wires, that will give you an electric shock.  An e collar does not dispense electricity, and in the hands of those who know what they are doing - viz, my husband - they are an AMAZING tool and I am more than happy to take a video of Ben recalling when he is called so that you can see for yourself.


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## Nikki J (27 February 2013)

Dry Rot said:



			I found this.... Sorry it's a bit long!



The Electric Collar  
Many successful trainers will tell you that "punishment" needs to be administered as close as possible to the moment the "crime" is committed. My philosophy of dog training doesn't assume dogs commit "crimes" any more than they know that they have "done wrong" or need "punishment". 

Dogs know nothing about human morals. Dogs follow their natural predatory instincts and these are moulded in training to suit our human purposes. That apart, the electric collar seems a most wonderful instrument because you can administer an electric shock to the dog at a considerable distance at "the right moment". At least, that's what is says in the glossy brochures.

Those who are in favour of the electric collar tell me I don't understand. For the record, I was the first person to import one into Scotland back in 1972. I have owned at least four different makes since and several different models. I live in sheep and deer country and we used to kill 1,200 mountain hares in two days when hares were considered vermin and had to be controlled. Yet I now find I have no need of an electric collar. How's that?

Mr Robert Wehle of the famous Elhew pointer kennel in the USA also condemns their use. Those who use electric collars have very little knowledge of canine psychology or they are professionals who train dogs which are totally screwed up mentally anyway. 

I have just had an email from a lady in the USA who hunts a pack of hounds. She asks why it is that gundog owners need an e-collar to control one dog when she can control a pack of 50 hounds without one! Good question! Have a look at my videos and see what I achieve without electric collars. I would not bother housing and feeding such an ill bred brute that required such methods to train it! So why are they in such general use and so widely recommended?

The Official view on the use of electric collars for dog training in the UK
Several police officers recently received a three year prison sentence in the UK for beating and abusing their dogs. With reference to this, here is an extract from Hansard "House of Commons written answers for 3rd November 1999" (that is, a report from our British Parliament).

Electric Shock Dog Collar

Mr. Rendel: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department if the Prison Service still has an electric shock dog collar in its possession; and how many times such a collar has been used since November 1998. [97109]

Mr. Boateng: The Prison Service is no longer in possession of an electric shock dog collar. Records held at the National Dog Training Centre indicate that the collar was used seven times on six dogs between March 1993 and July 1995. The electric collar was to be used only when authorised by the head of the National Dog Training Centre. It was used on adult dogs as part of a training course or remedial training and only as a last resort, when other methods of correcting a dog in control-related exercises had failed. The collar has not been used since 6 July 1995. On 14 April 1999, an amendment was made to Prison Service orders. It instructed that electric collars were not to be used, under any circumstances, on Prison Service dogs during training.

Mr. Rendel: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department how many police forces have an electric shock dog collar; and how many times such a device has been used since July 1998. [97110]

Mr. Charles Clarke: Of the 43 police forces in England and Wales, 20 possess electric shock dog collars for use in training. The device has been used by eight forces on a total of 37 occasions since July 1998. I understand that the relevant committee of the Association of Chief Police Officers is to review the use of this item.



Here are a few facts....

Fact 1:  The electric collar is a small tin box containing electronic components which is strapped to the dog's neck. A hand held transmitter sends a pulse which causes the collar to give an electric shock to the dog. These instruments probably cost a few pounds sterling (a few dollars) to make yet sell for a starting price at least twenty times that. So the manufacturers have huge profits out of which to pay for widespread promotions, advertising, seminars, free videos, etc. 

Hunting and dog magazines profit from the advertising revenue these companies generate so most do not discourage their use and the irresponsible publications won't even allow reasoned debate in case it cuts advertising income.

Fact 2: Scientific studies shown that harsh training methods usually have side effects which may not surface for years and then do so usually in some unpredictable way. Use an electric collar and you will be creating more problems long term and possibly ruining the dog short term. The better dogs are usually the quickest spoilt.

Fact 3: The mere act of strapping an electric collar onto your dog's neck changes the environment in which the dog is being trained. The collar is very noticeable to the dog. The whole point of using any corrective device (e.g. the check cord) is that the dog should not be aware that there is anything unusual going on. Very soon you will find that your dog won't work as you wish unless he is wearing the collar. This regular use leads to the collar contacts setting up an irritation of the skin which can lead to infection. How do I know this? Read above: I have veterinary training and personal experience of their use!

Fact 4: The collars are unreliable. Although the electronics has improved dramatically, there are other factors involved. A dog's coat is a great insulator and the probes need to be up tight against the neck to be sure of making a good contact every time. You think your dog won't notice this? Again, you are changing that environmental factor.

Fact 5: You won't know the effect of an electric shock to your dog until it's too late because you simply cannot predict that reaction. Guess wrong and you have created problems in the training program most won't need or possibly caused irreversible trauma in your dog. How is it we never read about these dogs? They undoubtedly exist.

Fact 6: None of the official dog training organisations (e.g. police, RAF, sniffer dogs, rescue dogs, guide dogs for the blind, hearing dogs for the deaf, the vast majority of shepherds, hunt kennels, etc.) find they need to use electric collars. Corporal punishment was abandoned in schools long ago in civilised countries -- because it doesn't work! 

Occasionally I get emails from American trainers who tell me I still don't know what I am talking about. If what you say is correct, please take it up with Mr Robert Wehle of Elhew pointers who doesn't appear to approve of electric collars any more than I do. Mr Wehle has unprecedented experience of breeding and training bird dogs in your native land so please don't bother me.

Do I need to go on? If a dog cannot be trained humanely, there is either something wrong with the trainer and/or his methods -- or something seriously wrong with the dog's breeding. In either case, the solution is clear. But sadly there will always be some who are so low on the human social hierarchy that they need something small and defenceless like a dog to dominate to keep themselves off the bottom of the heap!
		
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We can all google and find pros and cons to support our arguments.

All I can say is I am not a low life, nor am I at the bottom of the heap!  I am someone who loves dogs first, closely followed by horses, with human beings a very poor way down the list!  I happen to love my dog, who had a dreadful start in life through no fault of his own, who was abused and mistreated by ignorant people, and who when we first rescued him was savage and uncontrollable.  We managed to make him fall back in love with the human race, especially children (who luckily he was never aggressive towards), but the one thing we were not getting anywhere on was the recall.

Now we have a dog with a perfect recall, who is even more besotted and devoted to his human pack ... not the reaction of a poor, cowed, terrified and abused beast I don't think.  He worships the ground we walk on, and is so loving and so gentle.  I know we did the right thing - he would be dead by now without our Dogtra.


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## RutlandH2O (27 February 2013)

Nikki J said:



			No - the OP said all dogs should be kept on a lead at all times.  That is just totally unreasonable!  
By public places, that means everywhere except my own private property - ipso facto, the OP was saying that ALL dogs should be kept on the lead at ALL times except when on their owner's private property - this is plain ridiculous.
		
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Yup, that's what she said. There are a considerable amount of people who have the same belief...that dogs should be on lead at all times in public places. While your dog may be above reproach off lead, the unfortunate fact remains that there are incalculable numbers of dogs off lead with owners who don't have a clue...their dogs are not controlled, do not have any semblance of recall, do not have respect for other people's or dogs' space or fears. This is not a case of the few ruining it for the many. There are just too many off-lead dogs that shouldn't be off lead. That's what's unreasonable and ridiculous!


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## CorvusCorax (27 February 2013)

I had a DA dog and he was kept on a lead at all times in public/anywhere I was liable to run into other people and animals and I do actually agree with Lexie on that.

I was walking my young dog tonight, he is black, it was dark. Some ladies were coming across a narrow bridge which he was galloping towards, we meet a lot of walkers and he never bothers them but they didn't see him and it shocked them and one of them jumped backwards and screamed - he jumped backwards in shock too!
I did apologise and was mortified, I should have called him back and to heel, no one wants a big dog running up to them, I know he would not have bothered with them, he was just running towards the bridge, but it's perception - that woman saw a big black dog heading towards her in the dark and I feel bad that she was frightened.

As regards e-collars, I've stated my opinion, others have stated theirs, to which we are all entitled


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## Jools2345 (27 February 2013)

In response to Alec's questions;

I own and electric collar, I have had dogs for 28yrs (ish) and taught dog training and puppy socialisation for 8+yrs.

my youngest bitch (a lurcher) would hunt cats at the last yard I worked at, she did not just chase a running cat but actively went out of her way to hunt them out from where they were resting. i had always been very careful introducing her to livestock, in fact she came goat milking with me when she was 9 wks old so she met goats in a controlled enviroment where the goats would not be flighty or run away. she shows no interest in farm livestock but did with horses for a while but that was relatively easy to train her out of. she met cats as a puppy but still had the desire to hunt them-i have no doubt that she would have become a cat killer if action had not been taken.

i purchased an e collar after much debate and many discussions with people regarding the pro's and con's.

the one i purchased comes with a non active dummy collar that they advise the dog wears for at least 2 wks before using the active collar, this if introduced properly prevents the dog becoming conditioned and adjusting its behaviour when wearing the collar. my bitch wore the dummy collar for longer than suggested.

when used i spent all my time watching her when she was loose so the shock was given as soon as she 'flushed' a cat therefore creating the illusion that the cat delivers the shock. she had 3 shocks before backing off when a cat was flushed, she still shows interest in cats but is not hunting them just pricks her ears when they run.

without the e collar she would have possibly been on the road after a cat, unable to join me and my other dogs at work or spent her life tied up or on a lead.

i would always think long and hard before using one they are for me a last resort because i like to think the vast majority of dogs can be trained without them BUT the instinct to hunt and kill is often a very strong one


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## Llanali (28 February 2013)

I have salukis, so true hunting sight hounds. 

I let mine off the lead on private land, and in totally secured areas where no other dogs are found- ie my pups play fetch in the kids netball court late at night. 

My youngest does not have fail safe recall yet, and my oldest is a hunter- she will not stop to see if what she is chasing is a rabbit or a Yorkshire terrier, and will kill it the moment she touches it. Her recall is immaculate, but not when in full chase, and I'm not risking anyone else's animals. 

I do not believe for a minute that a life on the lead is barbaric: there are too many variables- how long a lead, do they have "sniff time", what surfaces do thy walk on etc etc. 

I'm lucky enough to have areas I can let them off; not everyone does and I don't think their dogs are automatically suffering in some way just because of thAt. 

I'm also confident that an e collar would NOT stop a pair of coursing salukis. A broken leg doesn't stop them, a six inch gash doesn't hold them back, I don't think a collar would. Until you have seen and owned these dogs and watched them hunt properly, I don't think anyone can imagine the focus they have.


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## lexiedhb (28 February 2013)

Nikki J said:



			That's a bit of an aggressive question without learning some of the FACTS first isn't it??! 

When we first rescued Ben, we had no idea.  We already had another dog, a large entire male mally cross, and to start with there was a bit of tension between the 2 dogs - Ben is castrated - and although they had several quite severe scraps between the 2 of them, Ben was fine with other dogs on and off lead.  However, as soon as the 2 boys really bonded as a pack and knuckled down to the hierarchical domination of Tai as Bossman with the Balls, and Ben as the underdog, this is when the trouble stated.  Ben started to be the Pack Defender, defending his pack leader Tai against all intruders.

At this point, OH started to walk the boys where he was unlikely to meet other people, and where there are rolling hills - making it easy to see who is coming.  Then we got to the stage where Ben was not coming when he was called, which with a DA dog is obviously totally unacceptable, and this scenario ended with the dog either having to be put down or kept on a lead for the rest of his life, neither of which options were acceptable to us, so this is when hubby consulted with 2 dog behaviourists - one of whom said the dog should be destroyed, the other said you will never train a reliable recall without resorting to an e collar, which in any case they did not approve of and would have nothing to do with.  OH is a medical scientist, with an honours degree specialising in mammalian physiology and zoology, so he did his research etc. etc. and to cut a very long story short, became an expert in the correct use of an e collar - and the rest, as they say, is history.  A very very happy dog with a very reliable recall ...!

So please don't be judgemental - we have been through hell with Ben, but we now have a fantastically obedient, happy dog who can be let free in the appropriate places, safe in the knowledge we can call him back the minute we see another dog coming over the horizon.
		
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Not aggressive or judgemental  Many would disagree with a) sledy pully type dogs being offlead b) Known DA dogs being off lead c) the use of electric shocks to "train" your dog. d) that a dogs life may as well be over if they are always on a lead. If you think all is perfect with your situation then fine- others dont, does not make them judgemental or aggressive Ta


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## tessybear (28 February 2013)

I think regarding a dog that is aggressive and will attack another dog they shouldn't be let off at all really. Like i say that dog that attacked the JR was known dog aggressive and once it was rehomed ( dog was from a shelter) the owner although told she* must* have her muzzle on at all times when out because she wouldn't think twice about attacking another dog failed to do so and once again on a walk she attacked another dog. 

I always think how would you feel if you have a friendly dog that was attacked by an aggressive one because the owners think it's cruel to keep them on the lead.  To me what is cruel is the friendly dog minding it's own business being attacked and the stress the owner will have to go through due to this. 

Although like i say Holly is not aggressive, she is exercised regularly and gets what she needs for her breed. Yes it would be nice to have a dog that was perfect off the lead and we have one of them (the JR) but i am more than happy to walk her on the lead if it ensures her safety.


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## ribbons (28 February 2013)

I'll keep this short as many have given good explanations of their experiences with an e collar.
Some one said (dry rot I think, apologies if that's wrong)
"very soon you find your dog won't work as you wish unless wearing the collar"
WRONG !  
I have never had need to use one but I know 2 people who have. In the first case the dog received one well timed shock, and returned immediately to owner. The next time the warning had the required effect and no shock was required. A verbal request was issued before collar activated at all. The collar warning was used 4 times before the dog obeyed the voice command. The collar was never needed again which led to it being lent to the second person o knew.
This dog took a little longer, 3 or 4 shocks were needed, and probably a dozen or so collar warnings before verbal command was enough.
Both these dogs now lead happy lives, with plenty of freedom because they are now obedient and trustworthy.
The collar has been lying in a drawer for 3 years+.

I think a short sharp shock is a very suitable training aid, and certainly more desirable than a dog in an RTA or an injured human or savaged cats or livestock.
A dog must be obedient at all times, otherwise it is a danger to itself and others.
If more dog owners treated their dogs fairly but firmly and realised you can't reason with them, they neither understand nor care, there would be less problems.

I guess I'm old fashioned, but I despair of all the faffing with dogs, horses and children. 
Fair rules and boundaries from day one, and consistency, then Everyone is safer and happier.

Also, I am convinced if these dogs were in the right hands from the beginning an e collar would never be needed. 
Inconsistent owners blurring the rules are what spoil dogs, who then take advantage and become confused. Then drastic measures are required to regain an obedient dog. This scenario also applies to the two dogs I have described.

I am so sorry, this wasn't short at all, but disobedient dogs really grind my gears, and it's never their fault.


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## moppett (28 February 2013)

Sorry to pitch in halfway through this threat, I don't know enough to comment on e-collars but - ribbons, like all dog owners I want to be a good one and of course have well mannered obedient dogs who respect clear boundaries that I have established. 

So when it comes to recall, and establishing a good one - how are you supposed to make the distinction between good dog and praise/reward for coming straight away, and an awful one that involves dogs eventual return and only after shouting its name/trying to attract its attention like a crazy lady? At the moment I just reward any return to me as I read that you shouldn't scold a poor recall as it'll do no good.

I use this forum for the knowledge of more experienced dog owners/trainers than me so welcome any/all advice. I think this thread is great, as so many struggle with recall for various reasons.


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## ribbons (28 February 2013)

Moppett, I don't know if anyone else will consider aswering your query, but I'm afraid I can't help.

I would never offer specific advice on a forum. Without meeting you and your dog that would be impossible. Every dog, and every owner are different. The combination of owner with different dog or dog with a different owner varies greatly also.
I would suggest you find a good trainer and get them to help if your not sure. Asking around owners of well mannered sociable dogs should point you in the direction of a good trainer.
I'm not a big fan of big group training clubs either. They have their place but I prefer one to one training, at least in the early stages.
Good luck, persist in finding the right help. An obedient well trained dog is a joy to own.


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## Nikki J (28 February 2013)

RutlandH2O said:



			Yup, that's what she said. There are a considerable amount of people who have the same belief...that dogs should be on lead at all times in public places. While your dog may be above reproach off lead, the unfortunate fact remains that there are incalculable numbers of dogs off lead with owners who don't have a clue...their dogs are not controlled, do not have any semblance of recall, do not have respect for other people's or dogs' space or fears. This is not a case of the few ruining it for the many. There are just too many off-lead dogs that shouldn't be off lead. That's what's unreasonable and ridiculous!
		
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I totally agree - but to generalise against the whole of the dog race is extremely unfair.  If you don't like dogs, fair enough - I don't like cats, but I don't insist on them being kept out of my garden by fair means or foul!  I accept that cats are a law unto themselves, although I reserve the right to turn the hose on them if I see them stalking my birds!  I find it slighly irksome to be told by someone that clearly doesn't like dogs that my well behaved boys should be leashed at all times!

But I do agree with you - there are too many off-lead dogs that clearly should be on the lead.


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## Nikki J (28 February 2013)

CaveCanem said:



			I had a DA dog and he was kept on a lead at all times in public/anywhere I was liable to run into other people and animals and I do actually agree with Lexie on that.

I was walking my young dog tonight, he is black, it was dark. Some ladies were coming across a narrow bridge which he was galloping towards, we meet a lot of walkers and he never bothers them but they didn't see him and it shocked them and one of them jumped backwards and screamed - he jumped backwards in shock too!
I did apologise and was mortified, I should have called him back and to heel, no one wants a big dog running up to them, I know he would not have bothered with them, he was just running towards the bridge, but it's perception - that woman saw a big black dog heading towards her in the dark and I feel bad that she was frightened.

As regards e-collars, I've stated my opinion, others have stated theirs, to which we are all entitled 

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Yup, absolutely!


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## Nikki J (28 February 2013)

Jools2345 said:



			In response to Alec's questions;

I own and electric collar, I have had dogs for 28yrs (ish) and taught dog training and puppy socialisation for 8+yrs.

my youngest bitch (a lurcher) would hunt cats at the last yard I worked at, she did not just chase a running cat but actively went out of her way to hunt them out from where they were resting. i had always been very careful introducing her to livestock, in fact she came goat milking with me when she was 9 wks old so she met goats in a controlled enviroment where the goats would not be flighty or run away. she shows no interest in farm livestock but did with horses for a while but that was relatively easy to train her out of. she met cats as a puppy but still had the desire to hunt them-i have no doubt that she would have become a cat killer if action had not been taken.

i purchased an e collar after much debate and many discussions with people regarding the pro's and con's.

the one i purchased comes with a non active dummy collar that they advise the dog wears for at least 2 wks before using the active collar, this if introduced properly prevents the dog becoming conditioned and adjusting its behaviour when wearing the collar. my bitch wore the dummy collar for longer than suggested.

when used i spent all my time watching her when she was loose so the shock was given as soon as she 'flushed' a cat therefore creating the illusion that the cat delivers the shock. she had 3 shocks before backing off when a cat was flushed, she still shows interest in cats but is not hunting them just pricks her ears when they run.

without the e collar she would have possibly been on the road after a cat, unable to join me and my other dogs at work or spent her life tied up or on a lead.

i would always think long and hard before using one they are for me a last resort because i like to think the vast majority of dogs can be trained without them BUT the instinct to hunt and kill is often a very strong one
		
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You have absolutely hit the nail on the head there Jools!  Some dogs do indeed have an extremely high prey drive - lurchers are a good example of this, all the northern breeds I would include in that, and mine bear witness to this!  I personally believe that it would be extremely difficult and terribly time-consuming to have trained your lurcher using positive methods - time during which as you rightly say she could have ended up chasing a cat across a road, to the detriment of both species and possibly the road users as well.

Far better IMO, kinder in every way, was to do what you did.  The dog still shows interest in cats, as my boys do in anything that runs, but you and I can control our dogs and stop them from going into hunting mode without even having to press the button on the collar.  Often now we take Ben out without his collar, but it makes no difference to his level of obedience, he still is exemplary in his recall.  It was a very much last a resort, but it was exactly the right thing to do, as it was for your lurcher.


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## Spudlet (28 February 2013)

To say all dogs should be on the lead at all times because some dogs misbehave off lead is rather like telling someone that because their neighbour with a newly off the track racehorse can't currently canter safely in the open, they are not allowed to take their 20 year old bombproof cob for a little spin. It's using a sledgehammer to crack a nut.


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## Nikki J (28 February 2013)

Llanali said:



			I have salukis, so true hunting sight hounds. 

I let mine off the lead on private land, and in totally secured areas where no other dogs are found- ie my pups play fetch in the kids netball court late at night. 

My youngest does not have fail safe recall yet, and my oldest is a hunter- she will not stop to see if what she is chasing is a rabbit or a Yorkshire terrier, and will kill it the moment she touches it. Her recall is immaculate, but not when in full chase, and I'm not risking anyone else's animals. 

I do not believe for a minute that a life on the lead is barbaric: there are too many variables- how long a lead, do they have "sniff time", what surfaces do thy walk on etc etc. 

I'm lucky enough to have areas I can let them off; not everyone does and I don't think their dogs are automatically suffering in some way just because of thAt. 

I'm also confident that an e collar would NOT stop a pair of coursing salukis. A broken leg doesn't stop them, a six inch gash doesn't hold them back, I don't think a collar would. Until you have seen and owned these dogs and watched them hunt properly, I don't think anyone can imagine the focus they have.
		
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It absolutely would, I can virtually guarantee it!  I am familiar with the breed, and I totally understand where you are coming from, but you don't understand how an e collar works.  The idea of an e collar is not to punish the dog, to inflict pain so that he would stop doing even what he likes doing more than anything else, that is not how an e collar works.  An e collar is all about timing.  It is essential that the correction is given at precisely the correct moment, and that is impossible to describe remotely really.  I will try and give an example though.  Let us take the scenario that your salukis have put something up on the set aside and they have the opportunity to run for miles pursuing that prey.  To a saluki this is probably the most exciting thing they could ever do - they would keep pursuing that prey come what may - a bitch on heat, as you say a broken leg of a serious wound, none of this would deter them from the goal in their sights, they would keep on running.  But you want them to stop, not chase the game, and return to you.  Because there are more than 1, you would not call the name, but just the trigger word loudly and in a commanding voice.  My word is "Come!".  Once emitted, if the dogs don't show a positive response within a second - obviously if they are at full tilt, they are not going to be able to stop on a sixpence - but they should show a response, a pause in the gait, a turn of the head, a slowing of the pace - then you give a 1-second zap whilst at the same time barking out your trigger command.  By now, they should have slowed down or stopped, and be coming back.  If not, then repeat the process but give a sustained zap, and I am pretty sure that you would not need to go through this process more than 3 times before they understand that they must respond to your trigger word.  Obviously you need to train this trigger in advance - we did this with Ben very quickly by merely having him on a long line, calling "Come" and then rewarding him with praise.  He picked it up literally in seconds, because he is extremely intelligent, and we could then move on to the e collar training.

Obviously, this is only a very brief synopsis, but it should give you an idea of how quickly and easily it is to recall even an ancient hunting breed like your Salukis, who doubtless just like my boys go completely deaf when they get into hunting mode.  The e collar forms an invisible leash between you, the handler, and your dog.  After a very short space of time - with us, it was only 3 zaps and no need for sustained, Ben was recalling beautifully.  That was about 1 year, or more, ago, and really he doesn't need to wear it any more.  OH only puts it on him more as a safeguard as anything else, but does sometimes forget, and it makes no difference whatsoever.  The e collar has changed my boy's whole pattern of behaviour, he is far more loving now than he used to be, he will leap up on the sofa on my husband's lap and cover him with wolf kisses, and the same with me.  We can groom him now without losing a finger, we used to have to muzzle him to get the knots out with a stripping comb, but now he just lets us do it, although he does grumble a bit on occasion!


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## Nikki J (28 February 2013)

lexiedhb said:



			Not aggressive or judgemental  Many would disagree with a) sledy pully type dogs being offlead b) Known DA dogs being off lead c) the use of electric shocks to "train" your dog. d) that a dogs life may as well be over if they are always on a lead. If you think all is perfect with your situation then fine- others dont, does not make them judgemental or aggressive Ta
		
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Yes, I do think all is perfect in our situation, thanx   You are right, many people do disagree with my boys being off lead - and the use of an e collar (NOT electric shocks - there is no current involved in an e collar).  But I take no notice of them, because what is important is that I know my dogs better than anyone else, and I know that what I am doing is the very best for them.  I don't go making wild sweeping statement that I think all sleddie types should be allowed off lead, and should be trained with an e collar - it is my personal opinion that I think all sleddie types should be allowed off lead by training a good recall, and IF this proves impossible, then if they can afford to purchase an e collar, and get professional instruction, that may be a course of an action they may wish to take.

But to make a sweeping statement that you think all dogs should be on the lead at all times in public places, is just way ott.

You are of course perfectly entitled to your opinion, but expect to be commented on if you go ott - IMO of course!! 

No hard feelings btw - I'm not being aggressive, I just fail to understand why you should think it reasonable to demand all dogs be kept on the lead all the time, when we are extremely responsible owners and only walk our dogs where no-one else goes, we can see for miles, and they are clapped onto their leads as soon as we espy anyone around!


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## lexiedhb (28 February 2013)

Nikki J said:



			Yes, I do think all is perfect in our situation, thanx   You are right, many people do disagree with my boys being off lead - and the use of an e collar (NOT electric shocks - there is no current involved in an e collar).  But I take no notice of them, because what is important is that I know my dogs better than anyone else, and I know that what I am doing is the very best for them.  I don't go making wild sweeping statement that I think all sleddie types should be allowed off lead, and should be trained with an e collar - it is my personal opinion that I think all sleddie types should be allowed off lead by training a good recall, and IF this proves impossible, then if they can afford to purchase an e collar, and get professional instruction, that may be a course of an action they may wish to take.

But to make a sweeping statement that you think all dogs should be on the lead at all times in public places, is just way ott.

You are of course perfectly entitled to your opinion, but expect to be commented on if you go ott - IMO of course!! 

No hard feelings btw - I'm not being aggressive, I just fail to understand why you should think it reasonable to demand all dogs be kept on the lead all the time, when we are extremely responsible owners and only walk our dogs where no-one else goes, we can see for miles, and they are clapped onto their leads as soon as we espy anyone around!
		
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Erm I didnt demand all dogs be kept on a lead.. may want to read who actually posted what!


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## Dry Rot (28 February 2013)

I'm off to buy an e-collar. If they work so well on dogs, just think that they can do for horse training!

I was always led to believe that no knowledge comes out of the end of a stick so it was counter productive to beat a dog, but it seems electricity over comes that problem

E-collars are illegal in Wales, soon will be in Scotland, and then England will probably follow. Why is it that Parliament takes notice of the stupid experts who say these wonderful devices should be banned?


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## moppett (28 February 2013)

ribbons said:



			Moppett, I don't know if anyone else will consider aswering your query, but I'm afraid I can't help.

I would never offer specific advice on a forum. Without meeting you and your dog that would be impossible. Every dog, and every owner are different. The combination of owner with different dog or dog with a different owner varies greatly also.
I would suggest you find a good trainer and get them to help if your not sure. Asking around owners of well mannered sociable dogs should point you in the direction of a good trainer.
I'm not a big fan of big group training clubs either. They have their place but I prefer one to one training, at least in the early stages.
Good luck, persist in finding the right help. An obedient well trained dog is a joy to own.
		
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thanks ribbons, i go dog training once a week on a 121 basis and think my trainer is great. we keep making progress but recall is a little way down the list - we're working on fear/confidence, and lead reactivity - but we will get there! just the talking about recall just had me thinking...as just positive training (clicker) seems a little one way atm with me making all the effort and the dogs just being spoilt! but thats probably me not being patient enough and needing more training!!


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## tessybear (28 February 2013)

Nice to see some people on here who are very knowledgeable in the subject 
I do think though you cannot always blame the owners not fully, instincts kick in that have been bred into the dog over centuries. 

We always get comments on how good Holly is round the house, doesnt dare jump up or invade personal space and will do whatever you ask of her. The type of dog you could leave the gate wide open and she wouldn't run out like an invisible barrier is there.

But if she sees a deer or rabbit she will be gone, no hearing what so ever and she would follow that animal into a road and under a car. 

Sad really


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## RutlandH2O (28 February 2013)

Nikki J said:



			I find it slighly irksome to be told by someone that clearly doesn't like dogs that my well behaved boys should be leashed at all times!

But I do agree with you - there are too many off-lead dogs that clearly should be on the lead.
		
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I don't know to whom you refer when you say "someone that (the word should be who) clearly doesn't like dogs..." If you are referring to me, boy have you got a wrong number! None of my dogs are EVER off lead in public places, EVER!! And they have good to excellent recall. I moved to the UK with 15 dogs (yes, they all went through 6 months of quarantine with me at their beck and call every single day). They were a very important part of my family (this was 18 years ago, and those 15 are all long gone) and there was no question of them not being part of a move halfway around the globe. So, don't talk to me about liking, much less loving, dogs. There are cities, towns, and villages were there are leash laws, with fines for any dogs off lead, and, for good reason. Aside from the obvious problems of loose dogs and traffic, pavement fouling, cocking legs on storefronts, other not-so-friendly dogs, there's the situation where some people are genuinely frightened of dogs. I'm a person who would never trespass or allow my child to do so. Likewise, in my mind, a loose dog could be guilty of trespass, whether it's someone's garden, shop window, chained bicycle, carpark, beach blanket (think cocked leg). I don't believe dogs suffer when on lead. I know mine don't. The two dogs I now own are a JRT and a GBGV (an old breed of French scent hounds). They are sheer delight on lead, but I, also, know the hunting/chasing drive in both dogs is tremendous. When I was interviewed before I got my GBGV, my breeder asked me what were my feelings about dogs off lead (she lives in the wilds of Perthshire). I've always erred on the side of caution and feel my dogs are safer on lead, especially in populated areas. So, with much trepidation, I told her that I preferred my dogs on lead. She let out a sigh and said she was so relieved because once the breed is on scent they are almost impossible to recall, even if their recall is well-established. There is something almost primordial about the GBGV and I would never risk her, or the JRT's safety away from home. 

Sorry Spudlet, your analogy just doesn't translate. In both of your cases, someone is on the horses and steering for that hypothetical "spin." Now, if you intended to release the racehorse onto open land...


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## Spudlet (28 February 2013)

Letting a dog off lead is not - or should not be - the same as relinquishing all control or contact. I am still in control of my dog, even without being in contact with him via a bit of string. I wouldn't risk him off lead on a road or in town - he's a dog - but in a suitable area, he will be off lead. I couldn't train him, and consequently couldn't work him, if I couldn't practice with him off lead in suitable areas and since sadly I don't have access to unlimited woods and fields of my own, that means training in the local country park. Your chosen breeds may be unsuitable for off lead work but mine is not - in fact working with a person under control whilst not being on the lead is exactly what he was built for. So I fail to see why my dog should be treated in the same way yours are. Although of course, clearly you know better!


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## tessybear (28 February 2013)

Spudlet said:



			Letting a dog off lead is not - or should not be - the same as relinquishing all control or contact. I am still in control of my dog, even without being in contact with him via a bit of string. I wouldn't risk him off lead on a road or in town - he's a dog - but in a suitable area, he will be off lead. I couldn't train him, and consequently couldn't work him, if I couldn't practice with him off lead in suitable areas and since sadly I don't have access to unlimited woods and fields of my own, that means training in the local country park. Your chosen breeds may be unsuitable for off lead work but mine is not - in fact working with a person under control whilst not being on the lead is exactly what he was built for. So I fail to see why my dog should be treated in the same way yours are. Although of course, clearly you know better!

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eeek you don't mean me do you ?  I have nothing against working breeds being off the lead  like you say if you have recall then go for it  What breed do you if you don't mind me asking ?


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## CorvusCorax (28 February 2013)

Nikki, with respect, there are a lot of dogs who's drive to do what it is they feel compelled to do, will carry them through the e-collar, or indeed any training aid, or indeed, hitting them with sticks (not that I have tried it). 

It is, like most things, not a failsafe. I think you may be imbuing it with powers that it does not possess.


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## Spudlet (28 February 2013)

tessybear said:



			eeek you don't mean me do you ?  I have nothing against working breeds being off the lead  like you say if you have recall then go for it  What breed do you if you don't mind me asking ?
		
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No - my point is that you handle the dog you've got, rather than apply a one size fits all approach - if you have found a way to handle your dog, awesome What gets me is when people say that because _their_ dog reacts in one way, _all_ dogs should be treated in the same way that happens to work for their particular dog. It's rather narrow-minded!

I have a spaniel - mostly cocker, though we suspect there may be a bit of springer in there too He's a good lad these days, and does me proud out beating on occasion.


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## RutlandH2O (28 February 2013)

Spudlet said:



			Although of course, clearly you know better!

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Yes, I know better about my dogs. There are too many off-lead dogs with no manners and owners who just don't care. Your sarcasm is ill-placed!


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## tessybear (28 February 2013)

Spudlet said:



			No - my point is that you handle the dog you've got, rather than apply a one size fits all approach - if you have found a way to handle your dog, awesome What gets me is when people say that because _their_ dog reacts in one way, _all_ dogs should be treated in the same way that happens to work for their particular dog. It's rather narrow-minded!

I have a spaniel - mostly cocker, though we suspect there may be a bit of springer in there too He's a good lad these days, and does me proud out beating on occasion.
		
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Well you hit the nail on the head with that one  We have polar oppostie dogs one who is fab off the lead and i wouldn't keep her on because her buddy is. 

Ah love spaniels  working on persuading the family we need a little cute cocker pup... hairdresser got one and it's like a little teddy


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## Spudlet (28 February 2013)

RutlandH2O said:



			Yes, I know better about my dogs. There are too many off-lead dogs with no manners and owners who just don't care. Your sarcasm is ill-placed!
		
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I'm certain that you do, which is my whole point! You know your dogs, and handle them appropriately - and I do the same for mine, and if those ways are different but effective, then all well and good. What is irritating to me is when some people make sweeping generalisations about all dogs and owners based on their own experiences - leading to statements such as 'all dogs should be on the lead all the time'. Well no, actually, _some_ dogs should be on the lead all the time, but _some_ are fine to be off the lead some of the time, and this should be recognised.

As to badly managed dogs, well they exist and always will, although I have to say I don't meet many around here. Most of the dogs we run into are kept under control, with or without a lead. However the conclusion that all dogs and owners should be penalised for the transgressions of some owners is disproportionate.


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## Jools2345 (28 February 2013)

Dry Rot said:



			I'm off to buy an e-collar. If they work so well on dogs, just think that they can do for horse training!

I was always led to believe that no knowledge comes out of the end of a stick so it was counter productive to beat a dog, but it seems electricity over comes that problem

E-collars are illegal in Wales, soon will be in Scotland, and then England will probably follow. Why is it that Parliament takes notice of the stupid experts who say these wonderful devices should be banned?

Click to expand...


it worked for my lurcher by giving her the impression that cats deliver a shock when they are approached to closely, she had three shocks wore it daily for 6 months and has not worn it for over 2 and half yrs now but she still has a little more caution when close to cats and it gives me enough time to intervene.

i always hated the idea of one before having this bitch.

i am interested as to how others such as yourself would have dealt with a dog that was hunting cats?


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## Superhot (28 February 2013)

I'm very fortunate with the dog training classes I go to.  It has been said on here that the answer isn't always a one size fits all and that is so true.  We could have 2 people with the same problem at class, but our trainer assesses the dog and its owner, before offering advice on how to cure that problem.  Humans and dogs all differ, so the advice for the same problem can and does vary.


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## Llanali (28 February 2013)

Nikki- thank you for your reply. Ill answer fully when I get home,

However it is ignorant to state that I do not understand how e collars work. I do, I have used them in other breeds with total success. I totally understand what you are saying, but i have also employed spray/ beep/ vibrate collars with salukis- nothing.
You say you are experienced with the breed? May I enquire what that experience adds up to? 

Mine is on te basis of 11 salukis of my own,  and 40 years of breeding one of the mot successful accredited breed lines in existence, with coursing and show champions numbering into the 20s.
Cavecanem, thank you- I agree.


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## CorvusCorax (28 February 2013)

Llalani, I think it's what I mentioned earlier about trying to argue with genetics!!


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## blackcob (28 February 2013)

Jools2345 said:



			i am interested as to how others such as yourself would have dealt with a dog that was hunting cats?
		
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Keep it on a lead. 

I was arrogant enough to try and tackle thousands of years of genetics - succeeded in many areas, incidentally, but in the case of instant recall and prey drive I hold my hands up and unwind the long line.


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## Llanali (28 February 2013)

Absolutely CC. It's just not going to work.

When I said a broken leg didnt stop them, I mean it totally didnt even cause a break in stride, so that moment of attention that Nikki talks about, and that I agree would e your moment of opportunity with another dog, does not exist. They do not falter.


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## Superhot (28 February 2013)

Nikki, how did wearing an e-collar make you dog more loving to you???  Genuine question, not sniping!
Llanali, are you saying you take your dogs coursing????


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## Llanali (28 February 2013)

No superhot, I'm saying before the ban, I used to take my dogs coursing. Now they lure course


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## Llanali (28 February 2013)

Nikki J said:



			It absolutely would, I can virtually guarantee it!  I am familiar with the breed, and I totally understand where you are coming from, but you don't understand how an e collar works. * To use your words, I find it irksome that you assume I am ignorant*

  The idea of an e collar is not to punish the dog, to inflict pain so that he would stop doing even what he likes doing more than anything else, that is not how an e collar works.  An e collar is all about timing. * A statement which is true of any animal training*

 It is essential that the correction is given at precisely the correct moment, and that is impossible to describe remotely really.  I will try and give an example though.  Let us take the scenario that your salukis have put something up on the set aside and they have the opportunity to run for miles pursuing that prey.  To a saluki this is probably the most exciting thing they could ever do - they would keep pursuing that prey come what may - a bitch on heat, as you say a broken leg of a serious wound, none of this would deter them from the goal in their sights, they would keep on running.  But you want them to stop, not chase the game, and return to you.  Because there are more than 1, you would not call the name, but just the trigger word loudly and in a commanding voice.  My word is "Come!".  Once emitted, if the dogs don't show a positive response within a second - obviously if they are at full tilt, they are not going to be able to stop on a sixpence - but they should show a response, a pause in the gait, a turn of the head, a slowing of the pace - then you give a 1-second zap whilst at the same time barking out your trigger command. * I don't know how many fully chasing salukis you have come across, but I can assure you that some- I can't guarantee all obviously- do not falter, they do not pause or turn their heads. They hunt to kill- when our Bashira broke his leg chasing he did not falter in his gait for a moment- the leg flapped around. *

By now, they should have slowed down or stopped, and be coming back.  If not, then repeat the process but give a sustained zap, and I am pretty sure that you would not need to go through this process more than 3 times before they understand that they must respond to your trigger word.  * Should have? SHOULD have? No, not necessarily *Obviously you need to train this trigger in advance - we did this with Ben very quickly by merely having him on a long line, calling "Come" and then rewarding him with praise.  He picked it up literally in seconds, because he is extremely intelligent, and we could then move on to the e collar training. * It has NOTHING to do with intelligence I'm afraid. Some of my salukis hold KC Gold awards for citizenship and recall is included in that. They come from anywhere, first time- BUT not when chasing. *

Obviously, this is only a very brief synopsis, but it should give you an idea of how quickly and easily it is to recall even an ancient hunting breed like your Salukis, * quickly and easily? Wow. Now that's a line I think many saluki or gazelle hound owners would find not much short of hilarity * who doubtless just like my boys go completely deaf when they get into hunting mode.  The e collar forms an invisible leash between you, the handler, and your dog.  After a very short space of time - with us, it was only 3 zaps and no need for sustained, Ben was recalling beautifully.  That was about 1 year, or more, ago, and really he doesn't need to wear it any more.  OH only puts it on him more as a safeguard as anything else, but does sometimes forget, and it makes no difference whatsoever.  The e collar has changed my boy's whole pattern of behaviour, he is far more loving now than he used to be, he will leap up on the sofa on my husband's lap and cover him with wolf kisses, and the same with me.  We can groom him now without losing a finger, we used to have to muzzle him to get the knots out with a stripping comb, but now he just lets us do it, although he does grumble a bit on occasion!* my dogs have NEVER been human agressive, nor even dog or pet aggressive except if chasing. Mine live harmoniously wiht cats and other dog breeds, and horses. I totally fail to see, as Superhot mentions later- how it has made your dog more loving. My dogs adore me, and I them,and it has nothing to do with whether their blood burns at the thought of a hare or deer *

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tessybear said:



			Nice to see some people on here who are very knowledgeable in the subject 
I do think though you cannot always blame the owners not fully, instincts kick in that have been bred into the dog over centuries. 

We always get comments on how good Holly is round the house, doesn&#8217;t dare jump up or invade personal space and will do whatever you ask of her. The type of dog you could leave the gate wide open and she wouldn't run out like an invisible barrier is there.

But if she sees a deer or rabbit she will be gone, no hearing what so ever and she would follow that animal into a road and under a car. 

Sad really 

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It is sad isn't it? But glorious in it's own right. I cried buckets when I lost my saluki as above, when he broke his leg chaisng, but the adrenalin kept him from pain and he died doing his first true love.



RutlandH2O said:



			They are sheer delight on lead, but I, also, know the hunting/chasing drive in both dogs is tremendous. When I was interviewed before I got my GBGV, my breeder asked me what were my feelings about dogs off lead (she lives in the wilds of Perthshire). I've always erred on the side of caution and feel my dogs are safer on lead, especially in populated areas. So, with much trepidation, I told her that I preferred my dogs on lead. She let out a sigh and said she was so relieved because once the breed is on scent they are almost impossible to recall, even if their recall is well-established. There is something almost primordial about the GBGV and I would never risk her, or the JRT's safety away from home.
		
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Another breeder here who is never disappointed if one of my potential owners will not let them off the lead except in private enclosed land. And incidently, I love GBGV and PBGVs!



CaveCanem said:



			Nikki, with respect, there are a lot of dogs who's drive to do what it is they feel compelled to do, will carry them through the e-collar, or indeed any training aid, or indeed, hitting them with sticks (not that I have tried it). 

It is, like most things, not a failsafe. I think you may be imbuing it with powers that it does not possess.
		
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CaveCanem said:



			Llalani, I think it's what I mentioned earlier about trying to argue with genetics!!
		
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blackcob said:



			Keep it on a lead. 

I was arrogant enough to try and tackle thousands of years of genetics - succeeded in many areas, incidentally, but in the case of instant recall and prey drive I hold my hands up and unwind the long line.
		
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Genetics as CC and BC have said above, are what they are. I have learnt from previous mistakes- our salukis that got injured did so chasing at home on our land, but my Mother lost a young dog when she was 23- he bolted across a road and under a motor car. The rabbit he chased was also killed by said motor car.


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## RutlandH2O (28 February 2013)

Spudlet said:



			I wouldn't risk him off lead on a road or in town - he's a dog - but in a suitable area, he will be off lead.
		
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For me, having a dog on lead is not a form of penalisation, in the same way a dog crate used to housebreak a pup should never be used as punishment. My definition of "in a public place" means on roads or in towns. A suitable place for dogs off lead would have to be parks where there are dedicated areas for dogs. I posted, some time ago, that I thought having unleashed dogs on bridleways was dangerous, for dogs, horses, and people. I was shot down for that. Yes, there are responsible dog owners, like yourself, who have the knowledge and control of their dogs. However, there are more than just a few dog owners who see dogs off lead and think it's cool and just let their animals go. I see it here all the time. There is an attitude of entitlement that says "my dog, my decision to leave off lead" and the rest of the world be damned. Two JRTs were killed on the railroad tracks, off lead, with owner walking further behind the dogs. A farmer shot and killed a labrador bitch and injured a lab dog because they were allowed to wander onto the farmer's land, dive into his lake and drown two commercial geese. Both dogs were owned by country people with land who should have known better. Their other bitch, a lovely, animal, spent most of her days snuffling about other people's gardens, narrowly escaping being killed by virtually every person in this tiny village because she was always on the road. Another JRT (brother of my bitch) spent every day on roads, driveways, gardens of everyone else's land (and leaving his little calling cards everywhere). There are only 12 properties in my village and some of these do have responsible dog owners. One woman had taken to walking her dogs with a cricket bat to protect her bitches from the JRT. 

What I'm attempting to convey is a sense of utter frustration with the irresponsible off lead owners. Coming from a residential area in the US, where there were strict leash laws, it was a pleasure to go about dog walking, jogging, picnicking, what have you, without fear of dog attacks or being chased by a loose dog. There were designated dog parks where I taught show handling and grooming of an evening under great lighting, or during the day on weekends.


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## Jools2345 (28 February 2013)

blackcob said:



			Keep it on a lead. 

I was arrogant enough to try and tackle thousands of years of genetics - succeeded in many areas, incidentally, but in the case of instant recall and prey drive I hold my hands up and unwind the long line.
		
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this dog is currently on lead due to cruciate surgery and even with 2 hrs walking daily and hydrotherapy she is climbing the walls and she is now nearly 6yrs old. 

i now work somewhere different where she can come with me, its 12 acres, securely fenced and has feral cats. as she now does not hunt cats she can come with me and be loose for at least 2 hrs daily (when she is not injured).


personally for a dog like her a life on the lead would be cruel IMO.

i have also witnessed owners with severve back problems and dogs with broken necks/leg injuries due to long lines and the like. my other dogs would have led a contented life if they had been on lead i am sure but this one, i think she would turn herself inside out, she has been very unhappy in her recovery due in large part to lack of excersize/stimulation-i cant allow her anything to play with as she throws it about and then leaps after it like a loon-and i have frequently wished i had said no to surgery and called it a day but we are over the worst now (for her) but my legs feel like they are going to fall off


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## Nikki J (1 March 2013)

lexiedhb said:



			Erm I didnt demand all dogs be kept on a lead.. may want to read who actually posted what! 

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 oops apologies!!  But someone did, I forget who, someone made a short statement along the lines that all dogs should be on the lead in public places - ipso facto everywhere bar their owners private property.

Sorry to accuse you wrongly


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## Nikki J (1 March 2013)

Dry Rot said:



			I'm off to buy an e-collar. If they work so well on dogs, just think that they can do for horse training!

I was always led to believe that no knowledge comes out of the end of a stick so it was counter productive to beat a dog, but it seems electricity over comes that problem

E-collars are illegal in Wales, soon will be in Scotland, and then England will probably follow. Why is it that Parliament takes notice of the stupid experts who say these wonderful devices should be banned?

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Nooooooooooooooooooooooooo!!!  It's not electricity, neither is it comparable to beating a dog


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## Nikki J (1 March 2013)

RutlandH2O said:



			I don't know to whom you refer when you say "someone that (the word should be who) clearly doesn't like dogs..." If you are referring to me, boy have you got a wrong number! None of my dogs are EVER off lead in public places, EVER!! And they have good to excellent recall. I moved to the UK with 15 dogs (yes, they all went through 6 months of quarantine with me at their beck and call every single day). They were a very important part of my family (this was 18 years ago, and those 15 are all long gone) and there was no question of them not being part of a move halfway around the globe. So, don't talk to me about liking, much less loving, dogs. There are cities, towns, and villages were there are leash laws, with fines for any dogs off lead, and, for good reason. Aside from the obvious problems of loose dogs and traffic, pavement fouling, cocking legs on storefronts, other not-so-friendly dogs, there's the situation where some people are genuinely frightened of dogs. I'm a person who would never trespass or allow my child to do so. Likewise, in my mind, a loose dog could be guilty of trespass, whether it's someone's garden, shop window, chained bicycle, carpark, beach blanket (think cocked leg). I don't believe dogs suffer when on lead. I know mine don't. The two dogs I now own are a JRT and a GBGV (an old breed of French scent hounds). They are sheer delight on lead, but I, also, know the hunting/chasing drive in both dogs is tremendous. When I was interviewed before I got my GBGV, my breeder asked me what were my feelings about dogs off lead (she lives in the wilds of Perthshire). I've always erred on the side of caution and feel my dogs are safer on lead, especially in populated areas. So, with much trepidation, I told her that I preferred my dogs on lead. She let out a sigh and said she was so relieved because once the breed is on scent they are almost impossible to recall, even if their recall is well-established. There is something almost primordial about the GBGV and I would never risk her, or the JRT's safety away from home. 

Sorry Spudlet, your analogy just doesn't translate. In both of your cases, someone is on the horses and steering for that hypothetical "spin." Now, if you intended to release the racehorse onto open land...
		
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OK, fair off, that's your right, your prerogative, but I happen to think differently, and happen to think that to keep very large dogs like mine on the lead the whole time, never to run free, is cruel - so we will just have to shake hands and agree to differ.  With a simple device, I have managed to ensure that my dog has an excellent recall, and I am totally happy with that fact.


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## Nikki J (1 March 2013)

CaveCanem said:



			Nikki, with respect, there are a lot of dogs who's drive to do what it is they feel compelled to do, will carry them through the e-collar, or indeed any training aid, or indeed, hitting them with sticks (not that I have tried it). 

It is, like most things, not a failsafe. I think you may be imbuing it with powers that it does not possess.
		
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We'll have to disagree - the e collar with my Ben IS extremely effective - look, he is a wolf cross with a huge prey drive.  What chances do you reckon we would have of recalling him - or indeed ANY dog - who had got inside a pheasant breeding pen?  Yes - I am ashamed to say that happened a year ago - the local landowner used to have a pheasant shoot on his land, and there was an area of woodland, about 1 or so acres, that was completely fenced off with high perimeter fencing all the way round so that the adult pheasants could fly in and out, but the young pheasants couldn't.  This has now been abandoned, but all the feeders were still lying around, and the pheasants obviously still use it for roosting etc. because they know the foxes cannot get them.  However, unbeknown to us, the fencing had been dismantled by one panel - making a gap of about 6 or 8 feet, through which of course dogs could go.  The inevitable happened, Ben and Tai went through the gap as we walked past and before we could say Come - they were off, with pheasants and feathers going everywhere.  Mike immediately barked "Come!" - nothing, so Ben got a zap from the collar set on a fairly low setting - 15.  He registered this, but still did not come, so immediately hubby gave him a zap of 20 and instantly he recalled - but Tai was still on the hunt, and he paused - this was his big mistake.  He then had a sustained zap and shot straight back to us, closely followed by Tai.  Not one pheasant was hurt thank goodness, and we learned a lesson not to assume that because an area has been fenced off for ever, it may not necessarily still be so the next day.

Can you imagine a dog like Ben set loose amongst a flock of squawking pheasants coming back to us within a period of about 10 seconds without an e collar?  Hell would freeze over before that would happen without an e collar.

By the way, he has never done this again - a neighbour's chickens escaped from their back garden the other day, and although Ben looked, he never attempted to chase them as they made a mad dash for their garden.

Hope this explains without appearing to be argumentative!


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## Nikki J (1 March 2013)

blackcob said:



			Keep it on a lead. 

I was arrogant enough to try and tackle thousands of years of genetics - succeeded in many areas, incidentally, but in the case of instant recall and prey drive I hold my hands up and unwind the long line.
		
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What!!  On his own land ... that's a bit harsh!!


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## Nikki J (1 March 2013)

Llanali said:



			Nikki- thank you for your reply. Ill answer fully when I get home,

However it is ignorant to state that I do not understand how e collars work. I do, I have used them in other breeds with total success. I totally understand what you are saying, but i have also employed spray/ beep/ vibrate collars with salukis- nothing.
You say you are experienced with the breed? May I enquire what that experience adds up to? 

Mine is on te basis of 11 salukis of my own,  and 40 years of breeding one of the mot successful accredited breed lines in existence, with coursing and show champions numbering into the 20s.
Cavecanem, thank you- I agree.
		
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No, I said I was familiar with the breed - in other words, I have a small amount of knowledge!  I am nowhere near as experienced with the breed as your good self, so I would not dream of arguing with you.

I am amazed that you are saying that salukis do not respond to an e collar - I would suggest that you were not using them properly - but I will concede that if you are absolutely sure that they were used correctly - and this can mean having to go further than you might feel comfortable with (I would be totally unable for instance to give Ben a sustained zap like OH does, I just would not be comfortable with it) - then I will have to accept what you say, but your experience must be virtually unique, because used correctly, a good quality e collar (forget the cheap ones, you need to spend a lot of money with Dogtra being the best make) will never fail to train a good recall.  By recall, I don't mean the dog screeching straight to your side as if it were glued there - but to leave what it is doing and to come at a reasonable pace - trot at the slowest - back to you such that you can catch and put him on the lead (often Ben overshoots in his exuberance, but we are not bothered by this).  I would love to know exactly what you did, and why you think you failed?


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## Nikki J (1 March 2013)

Jools2345 said:



			this dog is currently on lead due to cruciate surgery and even with 2 hrs walking daily and hydrotherapy she is climbing the walls and she is now nearly 6yrs old. 

i now work somewhere different where she can come with me, its 12 acres, securely fenced and has feral cats. as she now does not hunt cats she can come with me and be loose for at least 2 hrs daily (when she is not injured).


personally for a dog like her a life on the lead would be cruel IMO.

i have also witnessed owners with severve back problems and dogs with broken necks/leg injuries due to long lines and the like. my other dogs would have led a contented life if they had been on lead i am sure but this one, i think she would turn herself inside out, she has been very unhappy in her recovery due in large part to lack of excersize/stimulation-i cant allow her anything to play with as she throws it about and then leaps after it like a loon-and i have frequently wished i had said no to surgery and called it a day but we are over the worst now (for her) but my legs feel like they are going to fall off
		
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I quite agree.  We used to live next door to a beautiful chocolate labrador who because he ran off once, was condemned to a life on the lead for ever more.  He died at 10, overweight, with no muscle and terrible health problems related to the fact he never ran.  He never ever even trotted, just walked beside his owners on a lead.  I call this cruelty in the extreme.


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## Nikki J (1 March 2013)

Superhot said:



			Nikki, how did wearing an e-collar make you dog more loving to you???  Genuine question, not sniping!
Llanali, are you saying you take your dogs coursing????
		
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Not at all, that is a very interesting question!  When we first rescued him, he was a mess.  He had been mistreated for most of his life, and then his last home he was spoiled rotten and had been allowed to do exactly what he wanted.  He was a mess - he was vicious to us if we tried to stop him doing what he wanted, unfortunately for him we are extremely experienced with wolfy type dogs and it didn't wash with us, we were not frightened although OH was bitten.  When we started using the e collar, after all else had failed on the recall, it was like he had respect for us for the first time.  It was as if he was saying "about time too - at last you can communicate with me, and I understand what you want me to do".  The e collar has provided an invisible line of communication - it is NOT a punishment, it does not inflict PAIN if used correctly as we use it.  The dog is literally a reformed character, without having lost any of it if you understand what I mean!!  He is still naughty, loveable, playful, demanding, everything that being Ben is, even down to hating large black male dogs, in particular black labradors and also spaniels for some strange reason, but he is supremely happy now and fully accepts his place, which is at the bottom of our pack!

Hth.


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## Llanali (1 March 2013)

Nikki J said:



			No, I said I was familiar with the breed - in other words, I have a small amount of knowledge!  I am nowhere near as experienced with the breed as your good self, so I would not dream of arguing with you. 

I am amazed that you are saying that salukis do not respond to an e collar - I would suggest that you were not using them properly - but I will concede that if you are absolutely sure that they were used correctly - and this can mean having to go further than you might feel comfortable with (I would be totally unable for instance to give Ben a sustained zap like OH does, I just would not be comfortable with it) - then I will have to accept what you say, but your experience must be virtually unique, because used correctly, *a good quality e collar (forget the cheap ones, you need to spend a lot of money with Dogtra being the best make) will never fail to train a good recall.  * By recall, I don't mean the dog screeching straight to your side as if it were glued there - but to leave what it is doing and to come at a reasonable pace - trot at the slowest - back to you such that you can catch and put him on the lead (often Ben overshoots in his exuberance, but we are not bothered by this).  I would love to know exactly what you did, and why you think you failed?
		
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Do you honestly believe that in the bold? Are you that arrogant and ignorant, that you believe any dog, ANY dog, will come to a recall from ANY activity with an e collar?


By all means happy to share my experience.

I have used multivet spray collars, an ultrasound collar (will need to check make at home) and a vibration collar (again brand escapes me), and a Dogtra.

I used to have sold charge of an employers labs when she was away. The dogs were awful for going off hunting, and as part of a wider behaviour development piece, she called in a highly respected dog behavioural therapist and obedience champion trainer. 

She overhauled the exercise regime and the feed regime- the labs were over fed and under stimulated, and worked with owner and I with a Dogtra. Ten day acclimatisation period, working on a reward basis and doing basic tasks and normal recall as the dogs were accustomed to. 

The test then came out walking off lead in woods- the pair went off hunting, the command "here" was given, and no recall came. So the trainer demonstrated the "zap", then call the moment the heads paused and the stride came up short. The dogs went to continue, were zapped once more at higher intensity, thought better of it and came back to much reward. Mission accomplished, the dogs were much MUCH better from then on, with occasional slip ups which involved more than one zap. 

Success, and the product worked well.

I was fascinated, and had used spray collars on barking salukis in the past- those that bark at our perimeter fence- to good effect. 

Trainer and I had a long discussion highlighting that salukis were such hunters it might be difficult. Trainer offered to assist me and try it out. Same process was used, both with one of my salukis whose recall is impeccable except when chasing, and one whose recall was hazy at best. 

The tool failed, which I know you believe is impossible. I measure that failure, because a continued zap from the trainer and later from I had no effect on either, and trainer suggested that this was not the way forward. 
I hope this provides a little more clarity as to why I believe that you are wrong in your adamency that an e collar will train any dog to recall. and yes, our definition of recall is the same. 

Over the years, we in salukis have learnt that they come back when the prey is dead, or they have totally lost the trail.


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## Superhot (1 March 2013)

Thanks Nikki. Basically, you now have a happy dog because he knows the boundaries!!!  Great!


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## Nikki J (1 March 2013)

Llanali said:



			It is sad isn't it? But glorious in it's own right. I cried buckets when I lost my saluki as above, when he broke his leg chaisng, but the adrenalin kept him from pain and he died doing his first true love.



Another breeder here who is never disappointed if one of my potential owners will not let them off the lead except in private enclosed land. And incidently, I love GBGV and PBGVs!


Genetics as CC and BC have said above, are what they are. I have learnt from previous mistakes- our salukis that got injured did so chasing at home on our land, but my Mother lost a young dog when she was 23- he bolted across a road and under a motor car. The rabbit he chased was also killed by said motor car.
		
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You sound a lovely person - we see things slightly differently maybe, but I just wanted to say how lovely you sound!


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## Nikki J (1 March 2013)

Superhot said:



			Thanks Nikki. Basically, you now have a happy dog because he knows the boundaries!!!  Great!
		
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Absolutely - this is particularly important with the wolfie breeds like mals, sibes, all northern breeds, and of course wolf crosses.  As Cesar says, you have to set the rules, boundaries and limitations with all dogs.  And they will vary from owner to owner, and for rescued dogs this can be very confusing I would think, but at the end of the day I and OH are pack leaders and we must be obeyed!!


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## Alec Swan (1 March 2013)

Am I the only one who's finding it hard to concentrate on this thread? 

It's rare,  on here that I learn from those who have entrenched views.  I have,  however,  found the posts of those who've voiced doubts,  to be those that have made me "think".  Others may care to try it,  perhaps! 

Alec.


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## Nikki J (1 March 2013)

Llanali said:



			Do you honestly believe that in the bold? Are you that arrogant and ignorant, that you believe any dog, ANY dog, will come to a recall from ANY activity with an e collar?


By all means happy to share my experience.

I have used multivet spray collars, an ultrasound collar (will need to check make at home) and a vibration collar (again brand escapes me), and a Dogtra.

I used to have sold charge of an employers labs when she was away. The dogs were awful for going off hunting, and as part of a wider behaviour development piece, she called in a highly respected dog behavioural therapist and obedience champion trainer. 

She overhauled the exercise regime and the feed regime- the labs were over fed and under stimulated, and worked with owner and I with a Dogtra. Ten day acclimatisation period, working on a reward basis and doing basic tasks and normal recall as the dogs were accustomed to. 

The test then came out walking off lead in woods- the pair went off hunting, the command "here" was given, and no recall came. So the trainer demonstrated the "zap", then call the moment the heads paused and the stride came up short. The dogs went to continue, were zapped once more at higher intensity, thought better of it and came back to much reward. Mission accomplished, the dogs were much MUCH better from then on, with occasional slip ups which involved more than one zap. 

Success, and the product worked well.

I was fascinated, and had used spray collars on barking salukis in the past- those that bark at our perimeter fence- to good effect. 

Trainer and I had a long discussion highlighting that salukis were such hunters it might be difficult. Trainer offered to assist me and try it out. Same process was used, both with one of my salukis whose recall is impeccable except when chasing, and one whose recall was hazy at best. 

The tool failed, which I know you believe is impossible. I measure that failure, because a continued zap from the trainer and later from I had no effect on either, and trainer suggested that this was not the way forward. 
I hope this provides a little more clarity as to why I believe that you are wrong in your adamency that an e collar will train any dog to recall. and yes, our definition of recall is the same. 

Over the years, we in salukis have learnt that they come back when the prey is dead, or they have totally lost the trail.
		
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I am still unconvinced, although even me in my *arrogance and ignorance must surely allow you to know your breed!!

Correct me if I am wrong, but did you just "give up" on the e collar idea after just one session with this trainer?  Clearly if this is the case - and you tell me that you were using a Dogtra, which is an excellent make, and assuming that the collar was in perfect working order and had good contact with the skin - then Salukis are an exception to the rule.  It could be that you are perfectly right - if you want to pursue the idea, contact Lou Castle (I think that's his name) who produced a training video for Dogtra.  I would think if you google this name coupled with Dogtra you would get plenty of links ... he has produced an excellent training video, which coupled with a dog behaviourist in Devon who gave us on the ground training - or rather on the beach! - it is well worth a viewing.

I don't mean to be arrogant or ignorant ... honest injun!!*


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## PolarSkye (1 March 2013)

Yup . . . our lurcher Tilly was just like this.  She would get on the scent of something, chase it, get on the scent of something else . . . ad infinitum.  We lost her multiple times . . . the longest was for three hours and I had about given up on her and was going home (it's dark in them there woods) when she came limping back, exhausted.  From that day forward, she was not allowed off the lead.  

P


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## Nikki J (1 March 2013)

Ooops!!  No idea where that bold came from!!!


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## blackcob (1 March 2013)

Nikki J said:



			What!!  On his own land ... that's a bit harsh!!
		
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I rent a few acres of land for my horses. It's 'securely fenced' in that it's entirely surrounded by good stock fencing and a substantial hedge. I still keep mine on a lead there (albeit often very long leads!) because the landowner has a pet cat - it's unlikely that the cat would be hanging around the yard but having a confirmed cat-killer I won't take that risk again - and because there is a road on the other side of the hedge and sheep in neighbouring fields. Experience has taught me that even a new taut stock fence will not stop a husky in hunting mode. Been there, done that, spent half an hour frantically tracking a loose dog and ripping myself to shreds diving through hedges and down ravines to get it back before it could get on to a road or into livestock. 




			I quite agree. We used to live next door to a beautiful chocolate labrador who because he ran off once, was condemned to a life on the lead for ever more. He died at 10, overweight, with no muscle and terrible health problems related to the fact he never ran. He never ever even trotted, just walked beside his owners on a lead. I call this cruelty in the extreme.
		
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Very sad but a life on the lead doesn't have to be like that. Just this week my dogs have had two 5k runs on both bike and rig, a 5k canicross run, daily free running of my bit of land with 50ft leads attached for as long as they want it, one had a competitive agility class in an indoor arena, both had an agility training session outdoors in a fenced paddock with opportunity for a free run afterwards. This is in addition to normal walks (minimum two hours a day) on 8m flexi leads. I am knackered, they are knackered and fit as fiddles. Nobody said 'on lead' meant being dragged around town once a day on a 4ft lead.


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## Llanali (1 March 2013)

I didn't mean to offend Nikki! I've really enjoyed the debate and thank you for your input. I didn't mean to imply you were arrogant or ignorant in general, but I did mean to voice my opinion, that in that statement I did feel you to be arrogant and ignorant. 

The bold is fine- I am so incompetent technologically I'm surprised my quotes ever work!!

I'm keen to learn more - I do genuinely believe that salukis are an exception-they are in many ways (they will starve themselves to punish owners, they can eat dates and spit the stones out, raisins and damsons aren't poisonous, their blood counts are abnormal when healthy, their rib numbers vary etc etc) and as above with the labs, I have found e collars to be of great use, but not in a saluki. 

I will admit though that we stopped trying the dogtra on them after that day because the trainer advised me to and she herself would not be comfortable zapping anymore than already done. Coupled with my own experience of other collars of this nature, and knowing that they didnt work in the chase, I came to the conclusion that they will stop at nothing. Though my elderly matriarch might stop for a sausage!!!

I have to assume the dogtra was in full working order, as it was lent by the trainer, and worked perfectly on the Labradors. But hands up I didn't check as I wouldn't know how   skin contact wise, a saluki has a straight forward body coat, quite close cut and skin easily accessible so I can only assume this wasn't the issue either. 

I'm really genuinely pleased your dog has found security and happiness, and you were willing to explore other avenues to get there.


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## Llanali (1 March 2013)

I'm also keen to point out that there may well be salukis that it might work on- just not mine it would seem. Perhaps other blood lines are different, I would highly doubt it but I suppose it's always possible.  But I genuinely do feel they may well be the exception to the concept. There may well be other hunting hounds who react similarly- my experience is largely only of pure breds, but my knowledge would suggest a sloughi or afghan could be very similar.


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## CorvusCorax (1 March 2013)

Nikki J said:



			We'll have to disagree - the e collar with my Ben IS extremely effective - look, he is a wolf cross with a huge prey drive.  What chances do you reckon we would have of recalling him - or indeed ANY dog - who had got inside a pheasant breeding pen?  Yes - I am ashamed to say that happened a year ago - the local landowner used to have a pheasant shoot on his land, and there was an area of woodland, about 1 or so acres, that was completely fenced off with high perimeter fencing all the way round so that the adult pheasants could fly in and out, but the young pheasants couldn't.  This has now been abandoned, but all the feeders were still lying around, and the pheasants obviously still use it for roosting etc. because they know the foxes cannot get them.  However, unbeknown to us, the fencing had been dismantled by one panel - making a gap of about 6 or 8 feet, through which of course dogs could go.  The inevitable happened, Ben and Tai went through the gap as we walked past and before we could say Come - they were off, with pheasants and feathers going everywhere.  Mike immediately barked "Come!" - nothing, so Ben got a zap from the collar set on a fairly low setting - 15.  He registered this, but still did not come, so immediately hubby gave him a zap of 20 and instantly he recalled - but Tai was still on the hunt, and he paused - this was his big mistake.  He then had a sustained zap and shot straight back to us, closely followed by Tai.  Not one pheasant was hurt thank goodness, and we learned a lesson not to assume that because an area has been fenced off for ever, it may not necessarily still be so the next day.

Can you imagine a dog like Ben set loose amongst a flock of squawking pheasants coming back to us within a period of about 10 seconds without an e collar?  Hell would freeze over before that would happen without an e collar.

By the way, he has never done this again - a neighbour's chickens escaped from their back garden the other day, and although Ben looked, he never attempted to chase them as they made a mad dash for their garden.

Hope this explains without appearing to be argumentative!
		
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Yes but that is YOUR dog! Not all dogs are the same.
My dog's father snapped a tooth and dislocated a shoulder apprehending someone...did it stop him...no...the damage was only discovered about half an hour later, his drive and adrenaline carried him through.
Doubt a buzz from an electric collar would have stopped him.


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## CorvusCorax (1 March 2013)

Also, aren't salukis one of the oldest breeds in the world, they're a breed I would consider not that genetically far removed from the bedoiun dogs from which they originated. I do hate to use the 'arrogant' word but it would be arrogant of we humans to suppose that we can fight with that instinct.


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## Llanali (1 March 2013)

Absolutely CC, which links to my scepticism but open minded ness that other salukis might be different. 
They are indeed the oldest breed, and the genetically purist; we breed incredibly carefully to preserve this. They look and behave almost identically to the Bedouin dogs of age; I have been to te international saluki centre in Dubai, a fascinating place of eye opening wonder- not least because my youngsters look just like the murals carved into rock. The Bedouin dogs now are much the same as our "domestic" salukis.


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## Jools2345 (1 March 2013)

CaveCanem said:



			Yes but that is YOUR dog! Not all dogs are the same.
My dog's father snapped a tooth and dislocated a shoulder apprehending someone...did it stop him...no...the damage was only discovered about half an hour later, his drive and adrenaline carried him through.
Doubt a buzz from an electric collar would have stopped him.
		
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that is why timing with the collar is so important if my lurcher had been in chase mode i dont think the collar would stop her, but when she 'put the cat up' the adrenalin is not yet flooding her body creating (IMM) the window in which the collar will work and she will create the the collar with the cat NOT me it was used with no voice commands.
it was not a quick fix for me it took a lot of time observing my dog (in order to try and solve the problem without the e-collar) to spot the window of opportunity that i felt would be most successful


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## zigzag (1 March 2013)

Sorry to intrude, but am pretty good with internet jargon, but cannot for the life of me work out what a DA dog is,  Need enlightenment please !


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## Llanali (1 March 2013)

I think it means "dog aggressive" !!


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## zigzag (1 March 2013)

Llanali said:



			I think it means "dog aggressive" !!
		
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Thank you!


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## Superhot (1 March 2013)

Traffic chaos in my rural village this morning, people everywhere, what on earth was going on?  2 Border Terriers were apparently running back and forth across the road, on the scent of something, soaking wet from running through the stream!!!!  I always carry spare leads so the dogs were duly caught and the owner called.  When he arrived he was extremely embarrassed and said they often escape from his garden.  I asked him if he thought perhaps electric fencing and e collars might stop them, he said nothing would ever stop them when they're on the scent...and I thought of this thread...


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## baileymoo (1 March 2013)

I'm also keen to point out that there may well be salukis that it might work on- just not mine it would seem. Perhaps other blood lines are different, I would highly doubt it but I suppose it's always possible. But I genuinely do feel they may well be the exception to the concept. There may well be other hunting hounds who react similarly- my experience is largely only of pure breds, but my knowledge would suggest a sloughi or afghan could be very similar.
		
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I completely agree that Saluki's are an exception. I also own a Saluki and at my wits end I let a very knowledgeable and reputable gundog trainer try an e collar on him for 4 training sessions. He has a good recall if there are no distractions. However it didn't do the slightest thing over the sessions even on full setting whenever he saw something on the horizion, nothing will ever stop a Saluki in full hunting mode. If you have ever seen one 'go' you will know there is no window of opportunity to stop them. I can stop mine trying to run up to other dogs if im quick enough but there is no way in hell id be superhuman enough to stop him if it was a rabbit. Mine has ran at full speed into a tree before and as result couldnt walk for days after, but at the time he got straight back up and carried on full pelt. They run on pure adrenaline and are constantly seeking out prey, and electricity will not go through that. They are terribly aloof which doesnt help, and no training or gadgets can override instinct. 
He is walked for miles on all terrain a long line and is only let off in enclosed areas which i know. However i dont feel that he suffers due to this as he's fit, very well muscled and is as mentally stable as a Saluki can be..! I would be completely irresponsible if i let this dog off the lead and dont know any other Saluki owner that would risk letting theirs loose either.


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## Llanali (1 March 2013)

Bailey moo - how lovely to find another saluki owner, and very interesting to hear your comments echo mine so very closely. 

As I alluded to in my comment "we saluki owners have realised they come back when it's dead", you have hit the nail on the head- I don't know another breed person that lets them off "in public". Private, enclosed, desolated yes, but a normal woods or field, no I'm afraid not. My brood bitch at the moment would kill another dog if it sprinted, and in time the pups will be the same. These are show dogs, so not dog aggressive, but they would have a bichon frise at the jugular and dead on impact before realising it was even a dog.


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## Nikki J (2 March 2013)

Jools2345 said:



			that is why timing with the collar is so important if my lurcher had been in chase mode i dont think the collar would stop her, but when she 'put the cat up' the adrenalin is not yet flooding her body creating (IMM) the window in which the collar will work and she will create the the collar with the cat NOT me it was used with no voice commands.
it was not a quick fix for me it took a lot of time observing my dog (in order to try and solve the problem without the e-collar) to spot the window of opportunity that i felt would be most successful
		
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So well put!  It is all about timing.


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## Nikki J (2 March 2013)

baileymoo said:



			I completely agree that Saluki's are an exception. I also own a Saluki and at my wits end I let a very knowledgeable and reputable gundog trainer try an e collar on him for 4 training sessions. He has a good recall if there are no distractions. However it didn't do the slightest thing over the sessions even on full setting whenever he saw something on the horizion, nothing will ever stop a Saluki in full hunting mode. If you have ever seen one 'go' you will know there is no window of opportunity to stop them. I can stop mine trying to run up to other dogs if im quick enough but there is no way in hell id be superhuman enough to stop him if it was a rabbit. Mine has ran at full speed into a tree before and as result couldnt walk for days after, but at the time he got straight back up and carried on full pelt. They run on pure adrenaline and are constantly seeking out prey, and electricity will not go through that. They are terribly aloof which doesnt help, and no training or gadgets can override instinct. 
He is walked for miles on all terrain a long line and is only let off in enclosed areas which i know. However i dont feel that he suffers due to this as he's fit, very well muscled and is as mentally stable as a Saluki can be..! I would be completely irresponsible if i let this dog off the lead and dont know any other Saluki owner that would risk letting theirs loose either.
		
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O gosh, how very sad.  They are amazing dogs, but I am beginning to understand now how intractable this problem is with Salukis.  If after 4 training sessions there was absolutely no change, that would cause even me to think twice!

Can I just ask though what might be rather a distasteful question - did the trainer have the e collar on a high level sustain do you know?  Such that the dog in question vocalised - I hesitate to use the word pain, because it is not the correct word, but let's say extreme discomfort?  We have found once or twice with Ben ... and during our training session with a dog behaviourist in Devon ... a sufficiently high setting has had to be used to get through the red mist and make him listen.  With Ben, this had to happen when he was on a long line, muzzled on a beach and we walking amongst other dogs who were all off lead and running around the beach.  He showed aggression towards another large male dog and tried to jump on its back and pin it, so he had a zap but nothing, he ignored the command to Come - so he had a short burst which made him yelp and immediately return.  It is always when we have met other male dogs that he can get arsey - not always by any manner or means - but always with large black males, and spaniels, but only occasionally with other breeds!  With collies of all shapes, sexes and colours he is absolutely fine.  It is very strange.  Anyway, that is going off the point.  I am not arguing with you, but merely asking the question do you think the trainer had the collar set on a high enough setting?  Are you sure there was a good contact with the skin?  Both these things are absolutely essential.  I would be very interested to know.


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## Nikki J (2 March 2013)

Llanali said:



			Bailey moo - how lovely to find another saluki owner, and very interesting to hear your comments echo mine so very closely. 

As I alluded to in my comment "we saluki owners have realised they come back when it's dead", you have hit the nail on the head- I don't know another breed person that lets them off "in public". Private, enclosed, desolated yes, but a normal woods or field, no I'm afraid not. My brood bitch at the moment would kill another dog if it sprinted, and in time the pups will be the same. These are show dogs, so not dog aggressive, but they would have a bichon frise at the jugular and dead on impact before realising it was even a dog.
		
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Gosh, you are beginning to convince me on the intractability of the problem!  I am hoping that Bailey moo will answer my questions I have asked about the dog trainer, but I can see your reasoning now.  If Bailey moo does indeed confirm that the dog trainer was using the collar correctly and it was fitted correctly, then I concur that Salukis are super-dog and will endure extreme discomfort to reach their goal!  Interestingly Ben's dog aggression is "only" against large black or dark coloured males, mostly labradors, rottweilers, german shepherds, but funnily enough not collies.  Oh, and spaniels, for some reason he does not like spaniels.  But with all females he is absolutely fine, and with small dogs of all breeds and sex up to the size of a spaniel - a Bichon would be absolutely safe with him.  It is very strange.  But he is a wolf cross and he has had a very hard earlier life, so we just have to accept it and make absolutely sure he cannot attack another dog.  He doesn't inflict any damage, it is just all about pinning and noise and very distressing to see.  He has only bitten another dog once (apart from our own Tai), and that was appalling enough.

We walk miles with our 2, but if they couldn't run free they would be an absolute nightmare, I don't know how we would keep them happy and well-balanced.


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## Superhot (2 March 2013)

I used to walk a rescued Saluki, together with my young Toller.  The 2 dogs got along fine, but gradually the Saluki would start to chase my youngster, and once he had caught her, he would hold her down and start to choke her, to such a degree, my youngster ended up at the vets.  I had to reluctantly tell the owner I couldn't walk her dog off lead any longer.  She sought help from a behaviourist, but nothing ever changed.  I couldn't trust that the Saluki wouldn't instinctively chase any small dogs he met, so better to be safe than sorry.


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## baileymoo (2 March 2013)

Bailey moo - how lovely to find another saluki owner, and very interesting to hear your comments echo mine so very closely. 

As I alluded to in my comment "we saluki owners have realised they come back when it's dead", you have hit the nail on the head- I don't know another breed person that lets them off "in public". Private, enclosed, desolated yes, but a normal woods or field, no I'm afraid not.
		
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Its very interesting to read your comments too, especially from someone obviously so knowledgeable about the breed! Yes I agree with the wont come back until its dead comments, mine has never managed to catch anything except a few squirrels but wont come back unless he has completely lost the scent...probably 3 miles away!





			Can I just ask though what might be rather a distasteful question - did the trainer have the e collar on a high level sustain do you know? Such that the dog in question vocalised - I hesitate to use the word pain, because it is not the correct word, but let's say extreme discomfort? We have found once or twice with Ben ... and during our training session with a dog behaviourist in Devon ... a sufficiently high setting has had to be used to get through the red mist and make him listen. With Ben, this had to happen when he was on a long line, muzzled on a beach and we walking amongst other dogs who were all off lead and running around the beach. He showed aggression towards another large male dog and tried to jump on its back and pin it, so he had a zap but nothing, he ignored the command to Come - so he had a short burst which made him yelp and immediately return. It is always when we have met other male dogs that he can get arsey - not always by any manner or means - but always with large black males, and spaniels, but only occasionally with other breeds! With collies of all shapes, sexes and colours he is absolutely fine. It is very strange. Anyway, that is going off the point. I am not arguing with you, but merely asking the question do you think the trainer had the collar set on a high enough setting? Are you sure there was a good contact with the skin? Both these things are absolutely essential. I would be very interested to know.
		
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Yes, whilst my Saluki is feathered they have not got thick fur, the collar was correctly fitting and the setting was worked up to the highest level, also on a continuous zap until the trainer felt it was pointless and unethical to carry on. He is in no way dog aggressive with any type of dog big or small but will run at full speed up to another dog and obviously this is dangerous and intimidating to other owners. The collar was used in several situations and when it was just dogs/people he was half heartedly running off to the collar made him yelp and did provoke a reaction, he did come back a couple of times. However once they set off for hunting it is a completely different kettle of fish and they just zone out, the collar was absolutely useless and had no effect whatsoever on the highest setting or on continuous mode. He is an absolute wimp as well, if he stands on a stone or turns a corner funny he will yelp and limp for a while. His pain threshold is not high in any way and he is an incredibly sensitive dog, he had a splinter once and wouldnt weight bare for 3 days. So you would assume he would react to a collar shocking him hysterically, however this just isnt the case.


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## Llanali (2 March 2013)

I can testify the wimps part too! One of ours bit a plum with a wasp in once, and was stung on the lip...... The neighbours rang to ask if everything was alright.... They were inside heir house, 400 yards away! The vet thought the dog was dying when he could hear over the phone!! But when the hunt is on...

We must do a salukis photos thread


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## planete (2 March 2013)

I am fostering a dog which looks as pure saluki as a paperless dog can look right now.  I have had lurchers and greyhounds before but I have had to become a lot more careful and aware with his one than I have ever been.  He is only ever loose in enclosed spaces (deer fencing) and I muzzle him before letting him run with his best mate my lurcher. I never let him run loose with my terrier as he seems to get drunk on his own speed and goes into attack mode when he gets close to anything alive.  He is otherwise one of the gentlest, most affectionate dogs I have met and will play safely with the other dogs in smaller spaces where he cannot get into a full run.
He is also walked either on a short lead or on a fifteen metre training line and harness, plus muzzle in case a strange dog runs up to him.  I thought his temperament might have been altered by his unknown past, but perhaps it is just genetics?


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## Llanali (2 March 2013)

Another one! Now we definitely need pics!

To me, the description of "drunk on his own speed" and going into attackode when close to
Anything alive, sounds just like a saluki. His past may have chequered him- and well done you for taking him on, he sounds like he has landed on his feet!- but he just sounds saluki to me too


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## Nikki J (3 March 2013)

baileymoo said:



			Its very interesting to read your comments too, especially from someone obviously so knowledgeable about the breed! Yes I agree with the wont come back until its dead comments, mine has never managed to catch anything except a few squirrels but wont come back unless he has completely lost the scent...probably 3 miles away!




Yes, whilst my Saluki is feathered they have not got thick fur, the collar was correctly fitting and the setting was worked up to the highest level, also on a continuous zap until the trainer felt it was pointless and unethical to carry on. He is in no way dog aggressive with any type of dog big or small but will run at full speed up to another dog and obviously this is dangerous and intimidating to other owners. The collar was used in several situations and when it was just dogs/people he was half heartedly running off to the collar made him yelp and did provoke a reaction, he did come back a couple of times. However once they set off for hunting it is a completely different kettle of fish and they just zone out, the collar was absolutely useless and had no effect whatsoever on the highest setting or on continuous mode. He is an absolute wimp as well, if he stands on a stone or turns a corner funny he will yelp and limp for a while. His pain threshold is not high in any way and he is an incredibly sensitive dog, he had a splinter once and wouldnt weight bare for 3 days. So you would assume he would react to a collar shocking him hysterically, however this just isnt the case.
		
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O my Lor!  The highest zap Ben had was a 50, and he shrieked - I think our collar would go up to about 80 or 100.  There is no way that Ben even with his double wolf coat would be able to tolerate anything higher than 50 without intense vocalisation, and of course it goes without saying this would be totally inhumane.  Although I have to say that these collars do not work by giving an electric shock - the way they work is by muscle contraction, a bit like when you get a zap off a lift button or touching an electric fence.  The "belt" you get from an e collar is caused by the static flowing between the 2 prongs on the collar that touch the dog's skin and causing the muscles to contract - a bit like those Slendertone machines we used to strap around our flabby tummies back in the 70's.  The yelp from the dog and the subsequent "flick" of the head when the collar is set on a highish setting is caused by the surprise element and the contracting of the muscles in the neck.  I would have thought that on the highest setting, a dog like a Saluki would be felled purely by the effects of having his neck temporarily stunned by the pulse, but obviously not!

Very scarey indeed!


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## Nikki J (3 March 2013)

Llanali said:



			Another one! Now we definitely need pics!

To me, the description of "drunk on his own speed" and going into attackode when close to
Anything alive, sounds just like a saluki. His past may have chequered him- and well done you for taking him on, he sounds like he has landed on his feet!- but he just sounds saluki to me too 

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Definitely like some piccies!!


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