# Sad end to a good morning :(



## marmalade76 (26 October 2011)

Went out with the Cotswold Vale yesterday for a children's meet, which was held where they also hold a fun ride every year, so lots of nice, inviting jumps for young horses and riders. We were following this fun ride route when one of the hounds bolted on to the A38 and was hit by a lorry. The traffic was held up, three or four police cars attended and someone was arrested. It was said that sabs had horn-called the hounds from the other side of the road. 

Then this morning I found this through the CA FB page

http://hsa.enviroweb.org/index.php/...d-killed-on-busy-road-during-illegal-fox-hunt   

CA page, if anyone's interested  


https://www.facebook.com/#!/permalink.php?story_fbid=270075919697678&id=116283685076903

Why do these people continually target this small farmer's hunt?   I never saw anyone sabbing the Cotswold all the times I went out with them.


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## Kokopelli (26 October 2011)

I heard about this from a friend  so sad especially at a children's meet.


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## 3Beasties (26 October 2011)

And they call themselves animal lovers, disgusting


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## quirky (26 October 2011)

How mean of them .
The sabs press release reads like complete fabrication.

It is years since I have hunted but when I did, the children's meet was always the one that had the highest attendance by the sabs.

They were disgusting people then and things appear to have changed very little


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## Judgemental (26 October 2011)

marmalade76 said:



			Went out with the Cotswold Vale yesterday for a children's meet, which was held where they also hold a fun ride every year, so lots of nice, inviting jumps for young horses and riders. We were following this fun ride route when one of the hounds bolted on to the A38 and was hit by a lorry. The traffic was held up, three or four police cars attended and someone was arrested. It was said that sabs had horn-called the hounds from the other side of the road. 

Then this morning I found this through the CA FB page

http://hsa.enviroweb.org/index.php/...d-killed-on-busy-road-during-illegal-fox-hunt   

CA page, if anyone's interested  


https://www.facebook.com/#!/permalink.php?story_fbid=270075919697678&id=116283685076903

Why do these people continually target this small farmer's hunt?   I never saw anyone sabbing the Cotswold all the times I went out with them.
		
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This is becoming an increasingly serious problem elsewhere up and down the country.

Marmalade can you or any other person be precise about the identity of the person who was arrested?

It is very important in cases like this that people on this forum know exactly who was involved.


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## marmalade76 (26 October 2011)

All I know is it was a sab who was arrested. The hunt staff know the names of some of the sabs as they regularly harrass the Vale, I heard them talking about a lady with pink hair from Evesham who is a regular sab, but cannot recall her name. AFAIA, there were witnesses to the horn-calling.


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## RunToEarth (26 October 2011)

I heard about this, how awful, especially awful as it was a childrens meet. I think very few sabs have a passion for their cause, the ones that do seem to have a much more grounded view on the subject and would never be involved with incidents like this, most sabs are just aggressive people, not much better than the rioters in my eyes. Their purpose is to cause aggravation and distress to hunters whether they human, horse or hound.


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## Aoibhin (26 October 2011)

sadly the idiots that do thi sort of things arer not the origianal passion driven few Hunt Sabouters that uset to go out to defend the welfare of the quarry but thug hell bent on causing trouble. 
before i get shot down for this comment, i have been a hunt member for most of my life (from toddler following onlead upwards) but have the pleaure of being very close friend with a hunt Sab member, who on at least 3 occations was arrested & charged with assult (on another suposed sab supporter). He & i have had many arguments/heated dicussions over the years but both agree that the harming of horse or hound is unacceptable as a defence for the cause & makes a mockery of what they stand for. 

i really do hope the hound died very quickly & didnt suffer & those responsable pay for their actions.


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## Addicted to Hunting (26 October 2011)

How horrible, and just proves that alot of them aren't animal lovers!!! I know that they ages ago they used to target the younger ones out hunting with us, spray paint their ponies etc. I think that they hope that it will put the parents off allowing the children to go out again. (it didn't work for my brother, think it made him more determined!!!)


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## Judgemental (26 October 2011)

marmalade76 said:



			All I know is it was a sab who was arrested. The hunt staff know the names of some of the sabs as they regularly harrass the Vale, I heard them talking about a lady with pink hair from Evesham who is a regular sab, but cannot recall her name. AFAIA, there were witnesses to the horn-calling.
		
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*Thank you Marmalade, that is most helpful for all to know that it was a Saboteur who was arrested.*

Their name and address should be published on this Forum


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## RunToEarth (26 October 2011)

Judgemental said:



*Thank you Marmalade, that is most helpful for all to know that it was a Saboteur who was arrested.*

Their name and address should be published on this Forum
		
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No, I don't agree, I think that would make "us" as bad as "them". As disgusting as it is, perhaps some sabs may sit up and think after this horrible incident.


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## Judgemental (26 October 2011)

RunToEarth said:



			No, I don't agree, I think that would make "us" as bad as "them". As disgusting as it is, perhaps some sabs may sit up and think after this horrible incident.
		
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Well well Runtoearth that is surprising. Why not name and shame.

If all these so called monitors, saboteurs and antis had their names published and knew they would be published along with their addresses, they would think twice about their activities.

Take the solicitorsfromhell.com website where solicitors who do not perform are now having their names and details published.

It is having a very profound effect on the conduct of solicitors generally.


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## VoR (26 October 2011)

RunToEarth said:



			No, I don't agree, I think that would make "us" as bad as "them". As disgusting as it is, perhaps some sabs may sit up and think after this horrible incident.
		
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RTE I completely agree, the problem is (and I've seen it on a number of forums and social media sites) hunt supporters often (I indeed have felt myself being drawn in before) fall in to the trap of acting in kind, if we ensure things like this are correctly reported and act with grace in the face of such actions, we will do the pro cause more good than any form of verbal, written or physical retalliation as such actions will just support the false impression of us that LACS and HSA want people to believe.


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## VoR (26 October 2011)

Judgemental said:



			Well well Runtoearth that is surprising. Why not name and shame.

If all these so called monitors, saboteurs and antis had their names published and knew they would be published along with their addresses, they would think twice about their activities.

Take the solicitorsfromhell.com website where solicitors who do not perform are now having their names and details published.

It is having a very profound effect on the conduct of solicitors generally.
		
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Because JM, being a bad solicitor is a little bit less emotive it would seem than hunting. There are some who might use such information to 'take direct action', would that be good for our cause?


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## Judgemental (26 October 2011)

VoR said:



			Because JM, being a bad solicitor is a little bit less emotive it would seem than hunting. There are some who might use such information to 'take direct action', would that be good for our cause?
		
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Did I see the word acting with 'grace' in your previous post. Yes I did.

All this polite turn the other cheek, 'acting with grace' for years has got us nowhere.

In fact in case you have missed it there is a thing called the Hunting Act 2004

Grace and turn the other cheek, polite deference - complete and comprehensive failure.

We would achieve more by all camping out in front of St Paul's Cathedral!


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## RunToEarth (26 October 2011)

Judgemental said:



			Did I see the word acting with 'grace' in your previous post. Yes I did.

All this polite turn the other cheek, 'acting with grace' for years has got us nowhere.

In fact in case you have missed it there is a thing called the Hunting Act 2004

Grace and turn the other cheek, polite deference - complete and comprehensive failure.

We would achieve more by all camping out in front of St Paul's Cathedral!
		
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But look at hunts who HAVE reacted to sabs, trashed their property and lowered themselves, criminal damage has been caused, as a result they have more sabs out that ever before, and the police are far less compassionate towards that hunt. 
You may think that acting with grace has got us nowhere, but from my own experience I believe it does buy us small rewards. 
I feel the best way to deal with sabs is to ignore them, personally I feel that nothing would delight them more than reading their names on this forum, that would confirm to them that they are causing enough harm to be noticed.


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## Judgemental (26 October 2011)

RunToEarth said:



			But look at hunts who HAVE reacted to sabs, trashed their property and lowered themselves, criminal damage has been caused, as a result they have more sabs out that ever before, and the police are far less compassionate towards that hunt. 
You may think that acting with grace has got us nowhere, but from my own experience I believe it does buy us small rewards. 
I feel the best way to deal with sabs is to ignore them, personally I feel that nothing would delight them more than reading their names on this forum, that would confirm to them that they are causing enough harm to be noticed.
		
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Tell me Runtoearth, does the CIIIIIIREN as part of your location, denote the hallowed turf of that college at Cirencester?


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## VoR (26 October 2011)

Judgemental said:



			All this polite turn the other cheek, 'acting with grace' for years has got us nowhere.

In fact in case you have missed it there is a thing called the Hunting Act 2004

We would achieve more by all camping out in front of St Paul's Cathedral!
		
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So what do you suggest JM, we become vigilantes, hunt down the sabs and make sure they can 'sab-no-more'? That would really improve the general public's impression of hunting and huntspeople no end. 

If you had carefully read my previous post, you would also have noted my comment that we should ensure acts like this are correctly reported and that is in essence where we are extremely weak as hunt supporters. LACS and HSA appear to be well in advance of us in terms of propoganda, we need to catch up fast and expose them when they act in direct contradiction to their publicised stance.

I am quite aware and have a reasonable working knowledge of the Hunting Act, thanks.

Finally, those 'camping out in front of St. Pauls' are getting a less than positive public response now!


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## Alec Swan (26 October 2011)

J_M,

your sense of outrage is no more,  nor less than anyone else's.  Tempted though I am to agree with you,  unless the person mentioned is prosecuted,  I very much doubt that the H&H would put up with it.

I do have one positive suggestion,  perhaps,  and it may well bring dividends.  If the sabs monitor hunting,  would there not be those who could,  in turn,  monitor the sabs?  With a quad bike and a video camera,  evidence of their often illegal activity,  could be presented before the courts.  Just a thought!

Alec.


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## VOM (26 October 2011)

Just a quick reply. I feel disgusted and confused by the whole thing, they got Proper Hunting banned so why do they continue with this type of awful behaviour. 

Not sure how I feel about names being published but feel its important for the general public to know that it was a sab arrested, and a sab that put the hounds in grave danger and caused the death of one. How can these individuals call themselves animal lovers when they do this, its the animal version of man slaughter. 

So so cross right now, dont know how you all deal with it.


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## VOM (26 October 2011)

Alec Swan said:



			J_M,


I do have one positive suggestion,  perhaps,  and it may well bring dividends.  If the sabs monitor hunting,  would there not be those who could,  in turn,  monitor the sabs?  With a quad bike and a video camera,  evidence of their often illegal activity,  could be presented before the courts.  Just a thought!

Alec.
		
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Too right, with all the fancy video phones that are around now. At the first sight of trouble press record. Then get the footage out there for all to see.


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## marmalade76 (26 October 2011)

VOM said:



			Just a quick reply. I feel disgusted and confused by the whole thing, they got Proper Hunting banned so why do they continue with this type of awful behaviour.
		
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My thoughts exactly.


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## Festive_Felicitations (26 October 2011)

How awful! Poor poor hound! I hope who ever was responsible is suitably punished. 

I agree Alec it would seem logical to monitor the monitors, but then I'm 1/2 a planet away so what so I know?
I also agree with RTE that naming and shaming wouldn't help the hunts at all. Just look at Aus politics at the moment out 2 'leaders' (and I use the term loosely) spend all their time in a slanging match - result no one has any respect for either of them anymore.

Document the sabs, report them to the police, if they are prosecuted let the press know so the word does 'get out'.


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## VoR (26 October 2011)

and just to confirm my previous point about getting better at propoganda, 'Googled' 'Hound Killed' and got two returns from 'anti' sites, had a look at CA website...........nothing!

FOR GOD'S SAKE IF THE SABS WERE IN THE WRONG WHY DON'T WE PUBLICISE THE TRUTH?????


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## VoR (26 October 2011)

Felicity_09 said:



			at the moment out 2 'leaders' (and I use the term loosely) spend all their time in a slanging match - result no one has any respect for either of them anymore.
		
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That's politics the world over it seems!!!


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## Fiagai (27 October 2011)

marmalade76 said:



			Went out with the Cotswold Vale yesterday for a children's meet, which was held where they also hold a fun ride every year, so lots of nice, inviting jumps for young horses and riders. We were following this fun ride route when one of the hounds bolted on to the A38 and was hit by a lorry. The traffic was held up, three or four police cars attended and someone was arrested. It was said that sabs had horn-called the hounds from the other side of the road. 
.
		
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This from the Hunt Sab Site...




			Hunt Saboteurs Association Press Release 25th October 2011

A hound from the Cotswold Vale Farmers Hunt was killed by a lorry, on the A38, South of Tewkesbury, today during an illegal fox hunt. Members of the Hunt Saboteurs Association who were present said the hunts pack of hounds were illegally chasing a fox when one of them ran straight into the road and was killed outright by a lorry that had no opportunity to stop. It was only the presence of the hunt saboteurs that prevented further fatalities as they were able to stop more hounds running into the road.
Lee Moon from the Hunt saboteurs Association said: &#8220;If, as the Hunts like to claim, they were trail hunting then what were they doing near such a busy road. The hunting community don't care about the lives of either the hunted animals or the ones they employ to illegally chase them. The Cotswold Vale Farmers should be thanking the hunt saboteurs for preventing more of their hounds from being killed.&#8221;
		
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So their logic runs that if it is a trail it cant be _anywhere_ in the vicinity of a road???  

Reviewing the Hunt Sab sites is really quite enlightening
Not only do these mindless cretins advocate using horn calls to distract hounds they all seem to presume that hunts are always illegal and always in the act of hunting a fox even when it is clearly not




Rather than focus on banner waving demos, saboteurs will blow hunting horns, imitate the huntsman's voice calls and use harmless scent dulling sprays that mask where the fox or hare has run. Groups will then track the hunt from the meet and intervene where necessary, or move on to neighbouring hunts. It is quite common for hunts to be completely oblivious to the fact that they have been sabotaged. Whilst the riders quaff the stirrup cup, our members are in the woods taking effective pre-emptive action." 

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LINK

Other tactics used by these notional "animal lovers" include amongst other things:




Cornwall Hunt Sabs feed hounds on bourbon and digestive biscuits, which they love - and are of course vegan. Hounds are normaly not fed a day before a hunt, so they will stay with sabs longer if they think they have food, as understandably they are hungry. 

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So not only are Hunt sabs misdirecting hounds...they also advocate making them intoxicated (with the added risk of causing severe alcohol poisoning) and causing disorientaion with the risk of death and or injury of hounds and or others

It is quite hilarious that all the hunt sabs web sites presume that all hunts are actually hunting illegally.   Either these individuals are delusional or arn't actually bothered to find out what a hunt is actually doing and are prepared to preform such acts of animal cruelty on hounds...


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## EAST KENT (27 October 2011)

Judgemental said:



			Did I see the word acting with 'grace' in your previous post. Yes I did.

All this polite turn the other cheek, 'acting with grace' for years has got us nowhere.

In fact in case you have missed it there is a thing called the Hunting Act 2004

Grace and turn the other cheek, polite deference - complete and comprehensive failure.

We would achieve more by all camping out in front of St Paul's Cathedral!
		
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 Indeed JM..and those tents are EMPTY at night ..so no discomfort either!


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## RunToEarth (27 October 2011)

Judgemental said:



			Tell me Runtoearth, does the CIIIIIIREN as part of your location, denote the hallowed turf of that college at Cirencester?
		
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yes I used to be at Royal ag, does that make my argument less valid?


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## PorkChop (27 October 2011)

This proves that their stance on animal cruelty that led to proper hunting being banned is b******s.


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## Trolt (27 October 2011)

Alec Swan said:



			I do have one positive suggestion,  perhaps,  and it may well bring dividends.  If the sabs monitor hunting,  would there not be those who could,  in turn,  monitor the sabs?  With a quad bike and a video camera,  evidence of their often illegal activity,  could be presented before the courts.  Just a thought!

Alec.
		
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I'd suggest a few members of each hunt wear hat cams. If nothing happens with the Sabs then there is positive footage of drag hunting, and some fun video showing the thrill and atmosphere of a hunt.
If incidents happen with the Sabs, then the riders still have both hands free to control their horse and the recording is happening continually. 

Approval would be needed from the hunt to "ruin" the look of the hunting attire with a hat cam, but I'm sure any master would approve if the hunt was being actively targeted by Sabs.


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## ILuvCowparsely (27 October 2011)

ON THIS ARTICLE FROM THE LINK IT 

Says here that the HSA   actually stopped others going onto the road .
 and this   was an Illegal hunt so shouldn't  Be running anyway.

Hound killed on busy road during illegal fox hunt 	PDF 	Print 	E-mail
Tuesday, 25 October 2011 19:17

Hunt Saboteurs Association Press Release 25th October 2011



A hound from the Cotswold Vale Farmers Hunt was killed by a lorry, on the A38, South of Tewkesbury, today *during an illegal fox hunt.* Members of the Hunt Saboteurs Association who were present said the hunts pack of hounds were illegally chasing a fox when one of them ran straight into the road and was killed outright by a lorry that had no opportunity to stop. *It was only the presence of the hunt saboteurs that prevented further fatalities as they were able to stop more hounds running into the road.*



Lee Moon from the Hunt saboteurs Association said: &#8220;If, as the Hunts like to claim, they were trail hunting then what were they doing near such a busy road. The hunting community don't care about the lives of either the hunted animals or the ones they employ to illegally chase them. The Cotswold Vale Farmers should be thanking the hunt saboteurs for preventing more of their hounds from being killed.&#8221;


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## marmalade76 (27 October 2011)

Leviathan said:



			ON THIS ARTICLE FROM THE LINK IT 

Says here that the HSA   actually stopped others going onto the road .
 and this   was an Illegal hunt so shouldn't  Be running anyway.

Hound killed on busy road during illegal fox hunt 	PDF 	Print 	E-mail
Tuesday, 25 October 2011 19:17

Hunt Saboteurs Association Press Release 25th October 2011



A hound from the Cotswold Vale Farmers Hunt was killed by a lorry, on the A38, South of Tewkesbury, today *during an illegal fox hunt.* Members of the Hunt Saboteurs Association who were present said the hunts pack of hounds were illegally chasing a fox when one of them ran straight into the road and was killed outright by a lorry that had no opportunity to stop. *It was only the presence of the hunt saboteurs that prevented further fatalities as they were able to stop more hounds running into the road.*



Lee Moon from the Hunt saboteurs Association said: &#8220;If, as the Hunts like to claim, they were trail hunting then what were they doing near such a busy road. The hunting community don't care about the lives of either the hunted animals or the ones they employ to illegally chase them. The Cotswold Vale Farmers should be thanking the hunt saboteurs for preventing more of their hounds from being killed.&#8221;
		
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And you believe that, do you? They need to get some proof before they go round slandering people.


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## Judgemental (27 October 2011)

RunToEarth said:



			yes I used to be at Royal ag, does that make my argument less valid?
		
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Not in the slightest. I used to scud up and down all those stone walls with the beagles many moons ago.

Also clearly, the ladies who grace and graced the college are just as pretty and even more attractive when on a horse!


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## Alec Swan (27 October 2011)

Leviathan said:



when one of them ran straight into the road and was killed outright by a lorry that had no opportunity to stop.

Now I wonder why that was.  Did the fox cross the road before the hound?  and if he did,  then presumably the rest of the pack were hard on his heels.  Or was it,  as was reported,  the fact that the hound was called across the road?

It's also interesting to read that it was a sab who was arrested.  I wonder why.  It wouldn't do for me to sit on the bench.  Vermin,  nothing more or less.

Alec.
		
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## Herne (27 October 2011)

Fiagai said:



			This from the Hunt Sab Site...
So their logic runs that if it is a trail it cant be _anywhere_ in the vicinity of a road???  
Reviewing the Hunt Sab sites is really quite enlightening
Not only do these mindless cretins advocate using horn calls to distract hounds they all seem to presume that hunts are always illegal and always in the act of hunting a fox even when it is clearly not
		
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I agree with nearly all of what you say here.

Except perhaps the bit where you refer to them advocating feeding hounds "bourbon and digestive biscuits"




			So not only are Hunt sabs misdirecting hounds...they also advocate making them intoxicated (with the added risk of causing severe alcohol poisoning) and causing disorientaion with the risk of death and or injury of hounds and or others
		
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There is, perhaps, a slightly more innocent alternative interpretation for that suggestion...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bourbon_biscuit


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## VoR (27 October 2011)

Leviathan said:



			ON THIS ARTICLE FROM THE LINK IT 

Says here that the HSA   actually stopped others going onto the road .
 and this   was an Illegal hunt so shouldn't  Be running anyway.

Hound killed on busy road during illegal fox hunt 	PDF 	Print 	E-mail
Tuesday, 25 October 2011 19:17

Hunt Saboteurs Association Press Release 25th October 2011



A hound from the Cotswold Vale Farmers Hunt was killed by a lorry, on the A38, South of Tewkesbury, today *during an illegal fox hunt.* Members of the Hunt Saboteurs Association who were present said the hunts pack of hounds were illegally chasing a fox when one of them ran straight into the road and was killed outright by a lorry that had no opportunity to stop. *It was only the presence of the hunt saboteurs that prevented further fatalities as they were able to stop more hounds running into the road.*



Lee Moon from the Hunt saboteurs Association said: If, as the Hunts like to claim, they were trail hunting then what were they doing near such a busy road. The hunting community don't care about the lives of either the hunted animals or the ones they employ to illegally chase them. The Cotswold Vale Farmers should be thanking the hunt saboteurs for preventing more of their hounds from being killed.
		
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Ah, so that's it then, case proven because this was on the web from a completely impartial source..........duh!!!

There are two sides (some might say three) to every story, listen to BOTH, strip out all the posturing, bravado and emotion then make up your own mind (which may be the third side), or do you believe what you read in the papers too?!

Finally, following a trail by a road must be safer than 'illegal hunting' as the direction of a trail can be managed, a fox, errm a bit less so. The huntsmen are'nt going to put their hounds at risk, crikey, have you never seen their reaction if a horse kicks at one, really, don't believe everything that is chucked out by LACS/HSA about all huntspeople not caring for their animals, I've got the vets bills to prove I do!!


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## NeilM (27 October 2011)

Wasn't it lucky that Hunt Sabs, purely by chance and serendipity, happened to be standing at the exact spot where the hound ran onto the A38, and were thereby able to save the rest of the pack from harm.


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## JanetGeorge (27 October 2011)

NeilM said:



			Wasn't it lucky that Hunt Sabs, purely by chance and serendipity, happened to be standing at the exact spot where the hound ran onto the A38, and were thereby able to save the rest of the pack from harm.
		
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Well spotted, NeilM.  Sadly it's not the first time this has happened - and it won't be the last.  But the sabs are always there when it does.  Co-incidence??  I think not!


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## NeilM (27 October 2011)

JanetGeorge said:



			Co-incidence??  I think not!
		
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Me neither, and I wonder if the same thought has been put to the Police.


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## RunToEarth (27 October 2011)

Judgemental said:



			Not in the slightest. I used to scud up and down all those stone walls with the beagles many moons ago.

Also clearly, the ladies who grace and graced the college are just as pretty and even more attractive when on a horse!
		
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Ah, not sure how true that is but thank you. Beagles are doing well at the mo, think the new huntsman was in hounds recently? Unfortunately we tragically lost a beloved whip to RAC beagles in Jan of this year, he was a star and I don't think everyone appriviated how much he did, we may get into the press for wrong reasons but we do have real heros. X


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## CorvusCorax (27 October 2011)

Funny how these ardent animal lovers don't realise that chocolate (via bourbon biscuits) is poisonous to dogs. Get them run over, poison them slowly, ah, they do really care, don't they....


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## Dovorian (27 October 2011)

Name and shame -vs- anonymity....

Why not have a 'field' licence for mounted and unmounted followers - this should include sabs as they follow hunts on private land. Photo ID cards are easy to do.

Will work both ways.


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## VoR (28 October 2011)

CaveCanem said:



			Funny how these ardent animal lovers don't realise that chocolate (via bourbon biscuits) is poisonous to dogs. Get them run over, poison them slowly, ah, they do really care, don't they....
		
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Excellent point, I, on-the-other-hand, am quite partial to the odd (packet of) Bourbon, so any sabs who now have a redundant stock......


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## Molly'sMama (28 October 2011)

Firstly that is terrible ..I am horrified that people who claim to be animal lovers would do such a thing.I understood - but I may be wrong - though that the hounds where kept under quite strict control?So they wouldnt neccessarilly  run off into a road and try to stay together unless there was a horn..
Also , how would a few people ,if unprepared as they claim, be able to stop a whole hound pack running across a road? Hmm. 
Secondly ( I don't really know anything about this SAB business) but how is this LEGAL? Any of it?

eta- this  http://www.express.co.uk/posts/view/268637

picking out this from it -- First is the inhuman malice of some activists towards *hunting people. When hunt supporter Trevor Morse *confronted the helicopter that had been harassing a hunt on its runway and was killed by its blades as the pilot moved towards him, the activists&#8217; own video caught a voice callously saying: &#8220;Oh dear, the **** didn&#8217;t move out of the way.&#8221;


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## Herne (28 October 2011)

CaveCanem said:



			Funny how these ardent animal lovers don't realise that chocolate (via bourbon biscuits) is poisonous to dogs. Get them run over, poison them slowly, ah, they do really care, don't they....
		
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Now that is a good point. Hadn't thought of that...


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## Raynard (15 January 2012)

JumpinBeckeyJane said:



			How horrible, and just proves that alot of them aren't animal lovers!!!
		
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99% of sabs are vegan. What do you suppose their motiviation for that is, then?


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## Addicted to Hunting (15 January 2012)

O right, so because they are vegan its fine for them to kick hounds, and abuse us then is it??  I actually used to be vegertarian beacuse I disagreed with how a lot of the animals are transported, now I'm just picky about the meat that I eat and were it has come from, I really appriciate it, and I also love seeing the animals in the fields, if everyone was vegan there would be no animals, in fact no need for countryside.


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## Raynard (15 January 2012)

Wow, BeckyJane. What an intelligent and well considered response.

Sorry, you've really tickled my funny bone. Chortling with laughter, here.

Firstly, veganism isn't just a diet; it's a way of life. Not only do vegans abstain from eating meat, eggs and dairy, they also forgo leather, feathers, fur, pearls, silk, honey, or anything else produced by or derived from non-human animals. This lifestyle is borne of the love and respect of animals. So do you honestly think a sab would harm a hound? I've been through this before with you people. If a sab deliberately harmed a hound, or a horse, or any other animal, he or she would be in very hot water indeed with his or her fellow sabs. Sabs sab because they cannot stomach cruelty to animals. That is the bottom line.

Now, I mentioned veganism simply to emphasise the point that the primary, and only, motivation of the hunt saboteur is the desire to protect animals from cruelty, but if you want a debate on veganism and its consequences, fine. 

Your opening salvo was "if everyone was vegan there would be no animals, in fact no need for countryside". More poppycock on stilts. (The prospect of everyone becoming vegan is nil, so clearly, this discussion is purely academic.)

Firstly, 'there would be no animals' is a bit of a sweeping statement. I shall assume that you mean there will be no _farm_ animals. There are plenty of species on whom we do not depend agriculturally. Farm animals' numbers would decline until they reached manageable levels, then they would possibly become a protected species, or managed as wild species, and kept by conservationists, perhaps.

No need for a countryside, you say? Where do you suppose we would grow the crops we would need to feed ourselves? In window boxes? If we didn't need the countryside for growing crops, what do you suppose would happen to it? It would still _be_ there, you know.


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## Raynard (15 January 2012)

CaveCanem said:



			Funny how these ardent animal lovers don't realise that chocolate (via bourbon biscuits) is poisonous to dogs. Get them run over, poison them slowly, ah, they do really care, don't they....
		
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EVERYTHING is toxic in the right quantities, even water. A dog would need to eat a lot of chocolate to be in danger. Personally, I wouldn't give a dog a bourbon biscuit, and I can be quite sure that if a sab did do such a thing, he or she did it unknowingly and with the sole intention of gaining the animal's trust, rather than poisoning the animal.

And the only people responsible for the death of a hound on the road recently are the hunters. The sabs out that day weren't even carrying a hunting horn (the purported method used the 'lure' the pack onto the road). Hunts are well renowned for being reckless in their hellbent determination to kill something.


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## spacefaer (16 January 2012)

Raynard, I am intrigued by your statistic that 99% of hunt sabs are vegans.  Can you direct me to the published study which gives this figure?

I am presuming that the statement "hunts are well renowned for being reckless in their hellbent determination to kill something" refers to the trail layer they had legally been following all morning?

I have direct personal knowledge of several incidents where the end was considered to justify the means and animal welfare was jeopardised at the hands of hunt sabateurs.


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## Fiagai (16 January 2012)

Raynard said:



			...and I can be quite sure that if a sab did do such a thing, he or she did it unknowingly and with the sole intention of gaining the animal's trust, rather than poisoning the animal.
		
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			- _(from Hunt Sab Website)..._Cornwall Hunt Sabs feed hounds on bourbon and digestive biscuits, which they love - and are of course vegan. Hounds are normaly not fed a day before a hunt, so they will stay with sabs longer if they think they have food, as understandably they are hungry.
		
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LINK
.."did it unknowingly" and Vegan me *rse!




Raynard said:



			...And the only people responsible for the death of a hound on the road recently are the hunters. The sabs out that day weren't even carrying a hunting horn (the purported method used the 'lure' the pack onto the road). ....
		
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And about the tactics of blowing hunting horns to send hounds off in the wrong direction as advocated by ALf and your other little Anti friends regularly putting hounds in danger on roads and railway tracks??  Funny how Sabs advocate using hunting Horns as part of the tactics to disrupt legal hunting and then claim "oh no we didn't have a hunting horn" when hounds get killed...

Hmmm I smell something here..is it a fox?  No its bull!


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## spacefaer (16 January 2012)

As a matter of (minor) interest, I have been rootling around in my cupboard and digestive biscuits are not vegan as they contain skimmed milk.  They are vegetarian but are not vegan.

Yet again, another example of sabs getting their facts wrong.


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## Alec Swan (16 January 2012)

Raynard said:



			EVERYTHING is toxic in the right quantities, even water. ........
		
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How you can justify such stupid comments,  would be beyond the average man!!  

Wonderful.  Well said.  You're an idiot. 

Alec.

Ps ,  and a happy New Year,  if that's any help.


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## Addicted to Hunting (16 January 2012)

Ok, well ill stick to my veiw and you stick to yours, to be fair we are all intitled to our own opnion. If 99% of sabs are vegan than I must of seen the 1% that aren't then as when they were kicking the hounds none off the others stopped them,


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## lauraandjack (16 January 2012)

Raynard, please check your facts before posting!

Chocolate IS, in fact, quite toxic to dogs.  Admittedly, there isn't a lot of chocolate in bourbon biscuits, so you'd have to feed serious quantities, but chocolate toxicity is commonly encountered by vets. (Especially around Christmas and Easter time, quelle surprise!)

Dark chocolate is worse than milk, as it contains a greater concentration of the toxic component theobromine.  Consuming a small bar of bournville will likely prove fatal for a terrier, and will certainly result in a substantial vet's bill.


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## dominobrown (16 January 2012)

Can I just point out that a vegan diet is not healthy for dogs as they are carnivores. Neither can be the sugar in biscuits, if they really cared about the hounds they would go buy proper dog food.
Are hounds really not fed before the hunt? I assume this is because they will be undergoing quite heavy exercise, which on a full stomach is not very comfortable.

spacefaer- lol, i don't think bourbons are vegan either, which means if 99% of sabs think they are vegan, most are in fact not


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## NeilM (17 January 2012)

dominobrown said:



			Can I just point out that a vegan diet is not healthy for *ME *as *I am a* carnivore.
		
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As Ray seems to represent sabs here, and as I'm pretty new to this section of HHO, can I ask you Ray; what are sabs doing about badger baiting, and dog fighting?


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## marmalade76 (17 January 2012)

NeilM said:



			As Ray seems to represent sabs here, and as I'm pretty new to this section of HHO, can I ask you Ray; what are sabs doing about badger baiting, and dog fighting?
		
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Yeah, and the certain group of people who still go hare coursing on a regular basis, drive their horses hard on the road, etc, etc???


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## dominobrown (17 January 2012)

NeilM said:



			As Ray seems to represent sabs here, and as I'm pretty new to this section of HHO, can I ask you Ray; what are sabs doing about badger baiting, and dog fighting?
		
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eh?


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## NeilM (17 January 2012)

dominobrown said:



			eh?
		
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I am assuming that as sabs sabotage hunts 'because they are cruel', and monitor them in order to prove any illegal activity; then they must be taking similar actions against other pastimes like badger baiting and dog fighting which are illegal and must be considered cruel. 

I was just interested to know what actions they are taking.


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## Dirtymare (17 January 2012)

Raynard said:



			99% of sabs are vegan. What do you suppose their motiviation for that is, then?
		
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You know that as fact do you??


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## C&C (17 January 2012)

First ive heard about this one but i do remeber something very similar a while back, may even have been last season 

I used to hunt with the CVFH when i lived in the Forest 

Thanks for the CA link, i dint know there was one. I have 'liked'


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## Raynard (17 January 2012)

Alec Swan said:



			How you can justify such stupid comments,  would be beyond the average man!!  

Wonderful.  Well said.  You're an idiot. 

Alec.

Ps ,  and a happy New Year,  if that's any help. 

Click to expand...

Alec, you're an idiot.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/bradford/7779079.stm

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16614865/ns/us_news-life/t/woman-dies-after-water-drinking-contest/

http://www.childrenintherapy.org/victims/killpack.html

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-450341/Marathon-victim-died-drinking-MUCH-water.html



Fear not, I'll be back to respond to everyone else when I have more time. x


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## Alec Swan (18 January 2012)

Raynard said:



			Alec, you're an idiot.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/bradford/7779079.stm

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16614865/ns/us_news-life/t/woman-dies-after-water-drinking-contest/

http://www.childrenintherapy.org/victims/killpack.html

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-450341/Marathon-victim-died-drinking-MUCH-water.html



Fear not, I'll be back to respond to everyone else when I have more time. x
		
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For those who can be bothered to read through Ray-nerd's offerings,  I suspect that you will agree that he/she has rather reinforced my point!! 

There can be no question that the risk of drowning can be a trifle hazardous. 

Alec.


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## Fiagai (18 January 2012)

Raynard said:



			...Fear not, I'll be back to respond to everyone else when I have more time. x
		
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Dont bother  I agree with Alec....


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## Raynard (18 January 2012)

Alec Swan said:



			For those who can be bothered to read through Ray-nerd's offerings,  I suspect that you will agree that he/she has rather reinforced my point!! 

There can be no question that the risk of drowning can be a trifle hazardous. 

Alec.
		
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_Raynard laughs at Alec_

I know you must be feeling a little embarrassed about being an ignoramus.

If it's any consolation, _water intoxication_ surprised the hell out of me, too, when _I_ first heard of it.


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## Fiagai (18 January 2012)

Raynard said:



			Alec, you're an idiot.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/bradford/7779079.stm

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16614865/ns/us_news-life/t/woman-dies-after-water-drinking-contest/

http://www.childrenintherapy.org/victims/killpack.html

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-450341/Marathon-victim-died-drinking-MUCH-water.html

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Ah, the case of drinking to much water: yes, I see that idiots have taken to drinking too much water but I understand there are many idiots on this planet and I doubt that anyone would condone their behaviour. It does the cause of water drinkers everywhere no favour. I will say, however, that had if you said 'Water is toxic _and always has been_', your reponse would carry a lot more weight. At least one of these incidents, after all, occurred twenty years ago!

Any more examples of idiotic behaviour recent than that? There have been twenty years of water abuse since then ....


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## Raynard (18 January 2012)

Fiagai said:



			Ah, the case of drinking to much water: yes, I see that idiots have taken to drinking too much water but I understand there are many idiots on this planet and I doubt that anyone would condone their behaviour. It does the cause of water drinkers everywhere no favour. I will say, however, that had if you said 'Water is toxic _and always has been_', your reponse would carry a lot more weight. At least one of these incidents, after all, occurred twenty years ago!

Any more examples of idiotic behaviour recent than that? There have been twenty years of water abuse since then ....

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Oh Fiagai, I see you are desperate for my attention but _you must have patience_, little one. It's been a terribly busy week for us grown-ups. I will come toy with you some more on the weekend, when I have a little more time on my hands. x


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## Fiagai (18 January 2012)

Raynard said:



			...It's been a terribly busy week ... I will come toy with you some more on the weekend, when I have a little more time on my hands. x
		
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So I take it you are continuing with your criminal sabbing activities then during the week....I took it you were here for rationale debate and maybe that you actually believed in something, you really do surprsie me that come here just to act the eejit!


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## Dolcé (19 January 2012)

NeilM said:



			I am assuming that as sabs sabotage hunts 'because they are cruel', and monitor them in order to prove any illegal activity; then they must be taking similar actions against other pastimes like badger baiting and dog fighting which are illegal and must be considered cruel. 

I was just interested to know what actions they are taking.
		
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I too would be very interested in seeing a reply to this.  I suspect not a lot, let's face it, the type of people who get involved in dog fighting and badger baiting probably wouldn't put up with the sabs' actions for very long.  They would probably be found buried in a badger sett many months later.  I very much doubt they would take on 'real' and very serious villains, it would be far too dangerous and too much like hard work.


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## Ladylina83 (19 January 2012)

I live in North Cheshire as a foot follower to local hunts I'd say a high percentage of our scents are in fields close to busy roads at some point in the day ! They have to be its impossible to avoid it in this country 

Hounds manage to stand in a carpark walk up said roads and hunt all day without dashing out. As a point of interest is there a law that stops foot followers monitoring the sabs ? 

also just as a point I have never hunted a fox in all the years I used to ride with the hunts before or after the ban. I love my animals, am a vegitarian and riding in a field next to a road is not my idea of cruelty !


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## A1fie (19 January 2012)

Ladylina - no there isn't a law against following sabs.  Our hunt need to do it to make sure that the sabs stick to public footpaths and bridleways and not tresspass onto private land.  The sabs monitor our hunt to make sure we don't break the law.  We monitor them to make sure they don't either.  They don't seem to like it though.


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## Fiagai (19 January 2012)

A1fie said:



			Ladylina - no there isn't a law against following sabs.  Our hunt need to do it to make sure that the sabs stick to public footpaths and bridleways and not tresspass onto private land.  The sabs monitor our hunt to make sure we don't break the law.  We monitor them to make sure they don't either.  They don't seem to like it though.
		
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A1fie - do you record events?


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## A1fie (19 January 2012)

Fiagai - will pm you.


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## Luci07 (23 January 2012)

As someone who has seen how much dog fighting has increased recently I do wish sabs would focus on that. Or people who give their dogs away for free only to( if microchipped) returned 3 weeks. By the police as a carcass with its mouth taped shut. Fact. This happened near to me in Surrey a couple of months before Christmas.


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