# SNP to hold balance of power and the future of Repeal



## Judgemental (6 March 2015)

It is becoming clearer by the day that the SNP (Scottish National Party) will hold the balance of power in the next Westminster Parliament.

The recent Scottish referendum, probably the biggest political mistake by a Conservative Prime Minister ever, has caused the Scots to support the SNP in astonishing numbers. It is even suggested Gordon Brown's seat of Kircaldy (majority 23,000) will go to the SNP when he retires at the end of this parliament.

I would be prepared to put very serious money on the SNP returning at least 56 MPs out of the 59 

I believe and am reliably informed, that Mr Milliband has done and will do a deal with the SNP. He was forced in the 'Better Together' at the time of the Referendum, which has backfired on the Labour party in Scotland and he wants to be seen to get back on a level playing field in Scotland.

Nicola Sturgeon the leader of the SNP is a very capable lady (a solicitor) and can virtually promise the Scots anything they want from a Westminster Parliament, indeed £180 billion is a price tag well touted. Frankly why settle for £180 make it a nice round £200 billion.

When she appeared on Question Time a few weeks ago and was asked by David Dimbleby what matters she would leave to solely English and Welsh MPs (i.e. under the agreement English laws for English MPs) she said simply "Repeal of The Hunting Act".


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## Alec Swan (6 March 2015)

Judgemental said:



			..

When she appeared on Question Time a few weeks ago and was asked by David Dimbleby what matters she would leave to solely English and Welsh MPs (i.e. under the agreement English laws for English MPs) she said simply "Repeal of The Hunting Act".
		
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The lady's attempting to clasp the fringe vote to her bosom.  Neither she nor any other MP gives a stuff about Hunting.  Their only interest is in their perceived equanimity and those who may place faith in such,  such are their ameliorating platitudes.  Trust me,  neither she nor they give a **** about Hunting,  or our rural lives.

Tasteless carrots appeal to a far wider buying public than do those which are flavoured,  and the same can be said of politics.

Good to see you back Jm,  you've been missed! 

Alec.


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## Goldenstar (6 March 2015)

It makes me feel ill thinking about it .


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## Merlin11 (6 March 2015)

Goldenstar said:



			It makes me feel ill thinking about it .
		
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Me too and I live in Scotland.


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## Judgemental (7 March 2015)

Alec Swan said:



			The lady's attempting to clasp the fringe vote to her bosom.  Neither she nor any other MP gives a stuff about Hunting.  Their only interest is in their perceived equanimity and those who may place faith in such,  such are their ameliorating platitudes.  Trust me,  neither she nor they give a **** about Hunting,  or our rural lives.

Tasteless carrots appeal to a far wider buying public than do those which are flavoured,  and the same can be said of politics.

Good to see you back Jm,  you've been missed! 

Alec.
		
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Alec, thank you, have been on missions abroad.

Interesting the PM said, only yesterday, he would repeal the Hunting Act in the next parliament should the Cons achieve a majority.

That said I was surprised to see a former Tory Chairman, Lord Baker of Dorking suggesting that the Cons and Lab should form a coalition if the SNP hold the balance of power.

Cameron could not do a deal with Clegg over the Hunting Act and he is even more unlikely to do a deal with Milliband.

The chances of a coalition between the two parties is out of the question. Lord Barker is another of the Cons grandees who have suddenly realised how silly it was to grant a Scottish Referendum. They are now trying to find ways out of the inevitable impasse.

The old adage, "when you are in hole stop digging" might be appropriate.

I think it looks very much like a Lab SNP pact at the end of the day.

That said, I cannot help feeling the situation has many of the hallmarks of 1974.

Now I am always reluctant to use history as a yardstick for political events. 

However as I am sure you will recall Alec the Lib Lab pact of that year. 

That most Machiavellian of Prime Ministers Harold Wilson formed a pact with the Liberals in February 1974 and limped on to the autumn of that year, when he had to call another General Election, which he won with a slim majority. Then he Wilson had to resign in 1976 because of the "way he was doing business with the Soviets", so I believe.

Thus we could have two General Elections this year. However, how that squares with the Fixed Term Parliament Act is an interesting subject of it's own.

I was interested in Jacob Rees-Moggs (Eton and Oxford MP for North East Somerset) support for the PM not to have a debate solely with Milliband. Rees-Mogg has said earlier in the week in the Western Daily Press the Scottish Referendum was a mistake. Must say I rather like Rees-Mogg. He also has a very good tailor. However he is of the Cons grandee stamp and they are being wheeled out to 'put out the SNP fire'.   

Bottom line: with seven parties all seeking attention and votes, the wafer thin majorities in both Con and Lab seats, the more the PM trails his arguments the more likely he is to be successful. 

So far a promising votes to repeal the Hunting Act 2004, that's just electioneering froth.


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## LittleRooketRider (7 March 2015)

I suppose the hunting communities dream of a repeal under a tory government (we get  a little speech most meets about supporting them) goes with the logic that although it is far from teh top of their agenda they are the only party with even the mildest potentoial for repeal, I won't be surprised if it never happens tory gov. or not, but it will definitely never happen with labour, lib dems etc.


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## Alec Swan (9 March 2015)

Anyone who thinks that any political party has either the will or even the ability to repeal the Hunting Act,  is living in a dream world.  No politician will today dare to raise any contentious issue,  and if they're unable to reinforce legislation to protect the youth of our country,  from those who would sexually abuse them,  then what chance does Hunting stand?  None,  is the simple answer.

Hunting will continue in its present form,  with the Courts taking ever less interest than they do now,  I suspect.  Our Courts,  filled with budding terrorists,  drug users,  fraudsters and felons,  make better use of the facilities available to them,  attempting to exorcise those who commit crimes against their fellow man,  and view those who object to the curtailment of their previous liberties,  with a degree of disregard,  especially when we consider that the main prosecuting body,  a charity have had their ethics and ethos questioned by presiding Judges.

Alec.


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## LittleRooketRider (9 March 2015)

Alec Swan said:



			Anyone who thinks that any political party has either the will or even the ability to repeal the Hunting Act,  is living in a dream world.  No politician will today dare to raise any contentious issue,  and if they're unable to reinforce legislation to protect the youth of our country,  from those who would sexually abuse them,  then what chance does Hunting stand?  None,  is the simple answer.

Hunting will continue in its present form,  with the Courts taking ever less interest than they do now,  I suspect.  Our Courts,  filled with budding terrorists,  drug users,  fraudsters and felons,  make better use of the facilities available to them,  attempting to exorcise those who commit crimes against their fellow man,  and view those who object to the curtailment of their previous liberties,  with a degree of disregard,  especially when we consider that the main prosecuting body,  a charity have had their ethics and ethos questioned by presiding Judges.

Alec.
		
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I agree Alec that pigs may very well sprout wings and fly before it is repealed, as it is a highly-strung and divisive subject, but I think many hunt supporters would arther have a "sympathetic" government than one hell-bent on appearing the everyman of society, opposed to supposed "toffs" and "aristocrats".


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## ester (9 March 2015)

Judgemental said:



			Interesting the PM said, only yesterday, he would repeal the Hunting Act in the next parliament should the Cons achieve a majority.
		
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Politicians say a lot of things they don't follow through with actions. 
I struggle to see why any parliament would have any more to do with the hunting act, apart from perhaps tidying it up.


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## Kikicocoa (19 March 2015)

I cannot see why there is a problem with the current Fox Hunting legislation. From the farmers'/landowners' point of view a predicted trail protects crops, hedges and fencing in general. Surely sacrificing spontaneity is a small price to pay?


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## ester (20 March 2015)

It depends whether you believe hunting is a better way of fox control than the other methods employed.


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## Judgemental (4 April 2015)

Whilst it is fairly obvious the SNP are going to have a very considerable Crack of the Whip in the next Westminster Parliament, it is debatable as to whether any sort of repeal is either practical or desirable.

It seems the mood in the countryside is one of leave it all alone on the basis of the old adage, if it 'aint broke don't fix it'.


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## Judgemental (4 April 2015)

Goldenstar said:



			It makes me feel ill thinking about it .
		
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Goldenstar, time has moved on and we have now seen the very capable Mrs Sturgeon in action. 

One has to admit she is very impressive.

So will you be emigrating south of the border?


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## Penny Less (4 April 2015)

Im thinking of going to the southern hemisphere!


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## Judgemental (27 April 2015)

When I started this thread at the beginning of March I predicted that the SNP will have 56 of the 59 Scottish seats.

That figure is now being revised to 57.

In my opinion far too many people are being panicked by their numbers. When they have arrived at the H of C it will take a while for them to settle in and if the Clerk's Department are prudent, they will scatter them throughout the Palace of Westminster.

Indeed they may find themselves about four to an office which, bearing in mind the size of the offices is most unsatisfactory. 

If they are co-operative then they might be given more space.

As for repeal, considering I have just been watching two pieces on both the BBC and Sky News about the proposed introduction of Lynx to England and Wales in order to reduce the exploding Deer population.

Seemingly this move is supported by all manner of wildlife experts.

So we have an increasing Deer population which is causing many problems on the grassland farms , in particular the dairy farms of Devon and Somerset. Yet there is the Act.

Interestingly Mrs Sturgeon who is both intelligent and attractive has said the SNP will consider the matter of the Hunting Act 2004 to be an issue encompassed by English Votes for English laws.


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## hackneylass2 (1 May 2015)

I fail to see what  attractiveness has to do with this or any political issue really


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## Judgemental (1 May 2015)

hackneylass2 said:



			I fail to see what  attractiveness has to do with this or any political issue really
		
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Hackneylass, there are many gentlemen who find Mrs Sturgeon very attractive and I dare say in Scotland they may cast their vote accordingly, irrespective of political issues. 

Indeed I am told there are many voters in England and Wales who would choose to vote for her party if that were possible.

I mentioned in my pervious post the matter of the SNP members taking their seats in Westminster.

Bearing in mind The Clerk of the House of Commons is the legal owner of the 'premises' and he works closely with The Speaker It is so I am told, wise to keep on the right side of their respective departments, especially if one is a new boy or girl.  

Mrs Sturgeon does not, curiously take a seat in Westminster. I still don't understand why when she is the leader of the SNP and the main driving force behind the party and why she does not have a seat in Westminster.

That said, her views on Hunting are well documented and any repeal may hinge on her directives, bearing in mind she has said English Votes for English Laws and Repeal of the Hunting Act 2004 is one such issue.

On the other hand the SNP could use the matter of repeal for political gain and back the Tories on that subject if Labour will not agree to a Coalition.

Clearly Mr Milliband would be hugely embarrassed to find himself up against the Tories and SNP over The Foxhunting Act 2004 and would almost certainly cave into Mrs Sturgeon's wishes.

That is just an example, there are many other issues that the SNP could support in order to 'persuade' Labour to see things the SNP way.

Personally I am more interested in the use of the Statutory Instrument by the Secretary of State. Of course that, in a free vote would also be interesting where the SNP are concerned. Assuming the Conservatives can muster a majority.

However free votes could generate any result in a fragmented parliament.


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## Fellewell (3 May 2015)

The SNP are firmly against any repeal of Scotland's Protection of Wild Mammals Act (2002) and Mrs Sturgeon is simply playing politics. Perhaps she's trying to further Scotland's relations with Russia and we can expect to see her hunting in Siberia, on a horse, with her sleeves rolled up ;-)


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## fburton (6 May 2015)

Fellewell said:



			Perhaps she's trying to further Scotland's relations with Russia and we can expect to see her hunting in Siberia, on a horse, with her sleeves rolled up ;-)
		
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Alongside a bare-chested Putin... what an image!


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## HashRouge (6 May 2015)

Judgemental said:



			When I started this thread at the beginning of March I predicted that the SNP will have 56 of the 59 Scottish seats.

That figure is now being revised to 57.

In my opinion far too many people are being panicked by their numbers. When they have arrived at the H of C it will take a while for them to settle in and if the Clerk's Department are prudent, they will scatter them throughout the Palace of Westminster.

Indeed they may find themselves about four to an office which, bearing in mind the size of the offices is most unsatisfactory. 

If they are co-operative then they might be given more space.

As for repeal, considering I have just been watching two pieces on both the BBC and Sky News about the proposed introduction of Lynx to England and Wales in order to reduce the exploding Deer population.

Seemingly this move is supported by all manner of wildlife experts.

So we have an increasing Deer population which is causing many problems on the grassland farms , in particular the dairy farms of Devon and Somerset. Yet there is the Act.

Interestingly Mrs Sturgeon who is both intelligent and attractive has said the SNP will consider the matter of the Hunting Act 2004 to be an issue encompassed by English Votes for English laws.
		
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I think introducing Lynx is a great idea! They are beautiful animals


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## GemG (7 May 2015)

Judgemental said:



			Hackneylass, there are many gentlemen who find Mrs Sturgeon very attractive and I dare say in Scotland they may cast their vote accordingly, irrespective of political issues.
		
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Oh dear,...   ...how disinterested in the political issues and policies are some people?  The running of the country should not dissolve into a beauty pageant.  

If this is the case, some clearly 'should have gone to Specsavers'.


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## Penny Less (7 May 2015)

I quite admire Ms Sturgeon, although I don't want her dictating to the rest of the UK, she is in the mould of Maggie, who had more balls than the rest of them


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## Nugget La Poneh (7 May 2015)

I personally don't think the law should be repealed.

Not because of the fact it is hunting, but because I think that if it was to be put back to how it was, people that have joined hunts because of the ban could potentially decide to stop attending hunts and supporting financially.

As for the SNP, I've had to unfriend my cousin on FB because of the constant spouting of what basically amounts to the Scottish equivalent of BNP propaganda. I just find it (on the surface) slightly hypocritical that it is not socially acceptable to agree with the BNP, but it is to agree with the SNP despite not living in Scotland.


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## MotherOfChickens (7 May 2015)

Nugget La Poneh said:



			As for the SNP, I've had to unfriend my cousin on FB because of the constant spouting of what basically amounts to the Scottish equivalent of BNP propaganda. I just find it (on the surface) slightly hypocritical that it is not socially acceptable to agree with the BNP, but it is to agree with the SNP despite not living in Scotland.
		
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agree with them or not, there's is nothing in the SNP that is similar to the BNP (I am English, living in Scotland). Of course there are ****heads and people's opinion, still doesn't make the SNP the equivalent of the BNP.


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## fburton (8 May 2015)

MotherOfChickens said:



			... still doesn't make the SNP the equivalent of the BNP.
		
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Absolutely not! The SNP policy towards immigration, for example, is the complete opposite to that of the BNP.


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## MotherOfChickens (8 May 2015)

fburton said:



			Absolutely not! The SNP policy towards immigration, for example, is the complete opposite to that of the BNP.
		
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people should try some research rather than relying on a mostly Tory media.


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## Elf On A Shelf (8 May 2015)

Why would the SNP care about Hunting when there are so very few hunts north of the border?


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## frostyfingers (8 May 2015)

"mostly Tory media"  I nearly choked on my coffee - have you listened to the BBC recently?!  Right wing they are not.


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## VoR (9 May 2015)

This all seems a bit academic now anyway but, the SNP are 'the party for Scotland', their policy is to get 'the best deal' for Scotland and the Scots, that doesn't make them racist unlike some other so called political parties still not a great fan of them and still believe they would have held the UK to ransom if they had the opportunity to get what they feel is that 'best deal'.
As for a repeal of the ban, in a free vote, I'm still not sure there are enough pro hunters in the commons to win!


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## Judgemental (9 May 2015)

VoR said:



			This all seems a bit academic now anyway but, the SNP are 'the party for Scotland', their policy is to get 'the best deal' for Scotland and the Scots, that doesn't make them racist unlike some other so called political parties still not a great fan of them and still believe they would have held the UK to ransom if they had the opportunity to get what they feel is that 'best deal'.
As for a repeal of the ban, in a free vote, I'm still not sure there are enough pro hunters in the commons to win!
		
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A majority of only 12 is a very difficult number to work with and it is likely the Conservatives are going to have a very rough ride in the next five years, assuming the Parliament last five years.

Taking all the Blue Foxes into account and assuming all Conservatives voted for Repeal it will be a non-runner. Notwithstanding Ministers who have to be on overseas business, MPs who are off sick etc. The Whips are going to have to be very cunning to run matters generally.  

Mrs Sturgeon could do a deal to stand aside as it is an English matter but her price will be very high and exacting.

Billions of additional pounds of Taxpayers money going to Scotland, to give an easy ride for Repeal of the Hunting Act 2004, would be a very interesting scenario but the British public would not be happy bunnies.

So far as the 56 (extremely hostile) SNP members of the House of Commons are concerned, I would not wish to be a Conservative MP. 

As Mrs Sturgeon told Mr Cameron in a telephone call on Friday, "it was NOT business as usual".

That means the usual 'courtesies' of Parliamentary agreements, protocol, manners and procedure between parties are put on the back burner. 

I found her smart little Black Beret with a wing feather from a Grouse very amusing, when she attended the wreath laying at the Cenotaph to mark the 70th anniversary of VE day.   

As I say I would not wish to be a Conservative MP. Not only will the SNP have the right of the third round in all Prime Minister Questions but they will be members of all Select Committees and I dare say some SNP grandees will have to be appointed to the House of Lords.


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## Countryman (9 May 2015)

JM, I think how quickly we can get repeal through depends on whether the SNP are going to vote on English Laws. Until now, that has been their principled position.
If they agree not to, then without them, the number of seats in the Commons goes down to 591, meaning a majority of just 296 will be needed for repeal - giving Cameron a majority of 35, which is much more do-able.

Of course if they decide they do wish to vote on solely English or English/Welsh laws, I'm sure one of the most pressing concerns for the government will be locking them out of this process, via some sort of new English Votes for English Laws reform.


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## Penny Less (9 May 2015)

I don't really understand this first past the post system, UKIP had 3million votes but only got one seat, SNP got far less according to reports but got 56 seats?  How does it work ?


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## Goldenstar (9 May 2015)

Countryman said:



			JM, I think how quickly we can get repeal through depends on whether the SNP are going to vote on English Laws. Until now, that has been their principled position.
If they agree not to, then without them, the number of seats in the Commons goes down to 591, meaning a majority of just 296 will be needed for repeal - giving Cameron a majority of 35, which is much more do-able.

Of course if they decide they do wish to vote on solely English or English/Welsh laws, I'm sure one of the most pressing concerns for the government will be locking them out of this process, via some sort of new English Votes for English Laws reform.
		
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I agree Cameron promised to bring forward a bill to deal with the west Lothian question within 100 days .
It needs to be in the top of his in tray .


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## MotherOfChickens (9 May 2015)

Penny Less said:



			I don't really understand this first past the post system, UKIP had 3million votes but only got one seat, SNP got far less according to reports but got 56 seats?  How does it work ?
		
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UKiP fielded 600 candidates UK wide, SNP fielded 59 candidates _in Scotland_. SNP's 'hit rate' was far higher.


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## Alec Swan (10 May 2015)

MotherOfChickens said:



			UKiP fielded 600 candidates UK wide, SNP fielded 59 candidates _in Scotland_. SNP's 'hit rate' was far higher.
		
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The horses which have collapsed just past the Winning Post are aplenty.  Just as UKIP have touched the collective nerve of we in the South,  so the SNP have done the same.  

The SNP have recognised the frustration of the Scots,   but whether in the long term,  Scotland will benefit,  remains to be seen.  What price freedom?

Alec.


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## MotherOfChickens (10 May 2015)

Alec Swan said:



			What price freedom?
		
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what price the status quo?!

A yes vote to independence is not a done deal, another referendum is not yet on the table.At one point you seemed more at ease with the thought of Scottish Independence though, is it just the SNP you don't care for?


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## Judgemental (11 May 2015)

Countryman said:



			JM, I think how quickly we can get repeal through depends on whether the SNP are going to vote on English Laws. Until now, that has been their principled position.
If they agree not to, then without them, the number of seats in the Commons goes down to 591, meaning a majority of just 296 will be needed for repeal - giving Cameron a majority of 35, which is much more do-able.

Of course if they decide they do wish to vote on solely English or English/Welsh laws, I'm sure one of the most pressing concerns for the government will be locking them out of this process, via some sort of new English Votes for English Laws reform.
		
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Countryman, I agree save for one point, the majority is in theory 34, because one Conservative member has to be taken out of the equation as The Speaker. In the alternative the overall majority is 11 not 12.

Bearing in mind all the promises the Prime Minister and others made during the election campaign, that the Hunting Act 2004 would be repealed. The fact just about every hunt in the country mobilised their supporters to canvas on behalf of the Conservatives.

It will be very interesting to see whether or not the issue of repealing the act will be included in The Queen's Speech.


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## Lizzie66 (11 May 2015)

Judgemental said:



			Countryman, I agree save for one point, the majority is in theory 34, because one Conservative member has to be taken out of the equation as The Speaker. In the alternative the overall majority is 11 not 12.
		
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But then Sinn Fein don't take up their seats so Conservatives are now 330 and the rest are 315. So a majority of 15. In addition the DUP etc may well vote to repeal, which would therefore put their 8 seats with the Tories and make it 338 v 307.

However it is meant to be a free vote so votes may not go totally along party lines.


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## KautoStar1 (11 May 2015)

Alec Swan said:



			Just as UKIP have touched the collective nerve of we in the South,  so the SNP have done the same.  

Alec.
		
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Sorry Alec, ukip have not touched my nerve at all. 

Anyway I don't see repeal happening anytime soon and nor should it IMO.  Hunting is doing well enough under its current guise, although the law is an ass in this case I will admit.   Be thankful we have a Tory government who will at the least leave the Act as it is.  Labour would be looking to strengthen it & that would be a whole lot worse.


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## Judgemental (13 May 2015)

I see Caroline Dineage MP for Gosport and one of the 'Blue Foxes' and a significant opponent of hunting has been named a Justice Minister.


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## Alec Swan (13 May 2015)

KautoStar1 said:



			&#8230;&#8230;.. .

Anyway I don't see repeal happening anytime soon and nor should it IMO.  Hunting is doing well enough under its current guise, although the law is an ass in this case I will admit.   Be thankful we have a Tory government who will at the least leave the Act as it is.  Labour would be looking to strengthen it & that would be a whole lot worse.
		
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Agreed.



Judgemental said:



			I see Caroline Dineage MP for Gosport and one of the 'Blue Foxes' and a significant opponent of hunting has been named a Justice Minister.
		
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I wouldn't worry too much.  As with all Ministers,  she'll prove to be ineffective and fail to justify her existence.

Alec.


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## Judgemental (13 May 2015)

Alec Swan said:



			Agreed.



I wouldn't worry too much.  As with all Ministers,  she'll prove to be ineffective and fail to justify her existence.

Alec.
		
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Alec long time since I have had the pleasure of responding to one of your posts.

Indeed but if and it's a big if, Repeal is included in The Queen's Speech, any Justice Minister is effectively muzzled under House of Commons Protocols.

Or to put it in layman's/women's (no inequality here) terms, they cannot have a conflict of interests between their personal aspirations and that of the government they serve.


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## Alec Swan (13 May 2015)

Judgemental said:



			&#8230;&#8230;.. , they cannot have a conflict of interests between their personal aspirations and that of the government they serve.
		
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Except when they're offered a 'Free Vote',  perhaps.  Even then,  the vote will go in the favour of how they believe that they're perceived by their constituents,  rather than their beliefs!

Alec.


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## Judgemental (13 May 2015)

Alec Swan said:



			Except when they're offered a 'Free Vote',  perhaps.  Even then,  the vote will go in the favour of how they believe that they're perceived by their constituents,  rather than their beliefs!

Alec.
		
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Alec this is an absolutely fascinating point. Bearing in mind the Justice Minister will have to draft The Act of Repeal with the help of the Government Law Officers and in practice lay the bill before Parliament and the House of Lords, if it is passed by the Commons, they the Justice Minister has to personally sign the bill off to the Commons.

They can hardly vote against their own presentation irrespective or whether or not it is a Free Vote?


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## Countryman (13 May 2015)

The promotion of 3 MP's with anti hunt leanings (Caroline Dineage, Tracey Crouch, Dominic Raab) to junior ministries is a little worrying, but as Alex said, it is doubtful they will ever do much! In fact perhaps being ministers will persuade them to abstain in any free vote...

More hopefully though, the DEFRA team looks up to be a very solid one, despite no reappearance for Owen Paterson. Rory Stewart is an excellent man, who many feel has been wasted in DEFRA as he has the credentials to be an effective Foreign Secretary! However he also represents a very rural Cumbrian constituency and is firmly on the side of hunting - so perhaps it is a canny move. We will see!


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## Judgemental (13 May 2015)

Countryman said:



			The promotion of 3 MP's with anti hunt leanings (Caroline Dineage, Tracey Crouch, Dominic Raab) to junior ministries is a little worrying, but as Alex said, it is doubtful they will ever do much! In fact perhaps being ministers will persuade them to abstain in any free vote...

More hopefully though, the DEFRA team looks up to be a very solid one, despite no reappearance for Owen Paterson. Rory Stewart is an excellent man, who many feel has been wasted in DEFRA as he has the credentials to be an effective Foreign Secretary! However he also represents a very rural Cumbrian constituency and is firmly on the side of hunting - so perhaps it is a canny move. We will see!
		
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Countryman, as I said to Alec, if you accept a ministerial position then you cannot vote against a Government Bill, even if it is a Free Vote.

I suppose they could abstain on the grounds of conflict of conscience but that is a good thing, because it takes them out of the frame in opposition.

Nevertheless it would make their acceptance of such a position unacceptable.


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## Judgemental (13 July 2015)

Not wishing to be a bearer of bad news or one of those infuriating "Told You So People".

Seemingly the SNP have had a meeting and George Robertson has said they will vote.

Will they all vote the same way. Remember some represent very Scottish rural seats.

But in the final analysis 'they hold the balance of power' in Westminster and the future of hunting in England and Wales.


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## Judgemental (13 July 2015)

I suppose the Government could 'shoot the Labour fox' by adjourning or laying over the debate on the grounds the SNP voting on English and Welsh matters are unacceptable.


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## Lizzie66 (14 July 2015)

Judgemental said:



			I suppose the Government could 'shoot the Labour fox' by adjourning or laying over the debate on the grounds the SNP voting on English and Welsh matters are unacceptable.
		
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Use the time to debate the banning of Scottish MPs voting on laws that only affect England & Wales.

This current situation is now scary. The SNP are basically denying the English the rights that they have. In the grand scheme of things fox hunting is not likely to impact on that many people, but the fact that they are not allowing us to change our law to match theirs is downright wrong.

And purely because the UK Government won't deliver them everything they want. Yes the Scottish wanted a bigger say on how their country s run but equally they voted to stay in the UK. 

The sooner the number of MPs is reduced and the boundaries reset the better .

The childish response to this would be to delay the handover of further powers to Scotland, resolve the West Lothian question and get rid of the Barnett formula.  Say to the people of Scotland, very sorry but unfortunately the SNP can't be trusted to keep their word and deal fairly and we therefore reluctantly feel that to handover more power would be detrimental to the wellbeing of the UK


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## ribbons (14 July 2015)

We are heading for very dangerous times.
Whether you are pro hunting or anti is irrelevant here.
The Sturgeon woman has become power mad, she and her lot have openly admitted that the reason they will vote on this issue is to send a message to Cameron how slim his balance of power really is.
Whilst I realise fox hunting is of no real importance to any politician, it is hugely important to many rural communities including in scotland.
To openly admit to using this issue, (having already said it was of no interest to her) as a tool to poke Cameron, is not only insulting to the entire uk, it is unbelievably arrogant. In her head she holds all the cards and already rules the entire uk, very dangerous woman indeed.

Just to point out to anyone who is anti hunting, and applauds her move. Be very careful, she has no interest in hunting, one way or the other. The next issue she uses could well be one that is very dear to you. She won't care, providing it feeds her ego, she'll trample on anything in her way, she is so cocky, she admits to using this issue for her own ends on BBC news.


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## {51248} (14 July 2015)

Just announced.... the vote has been postponed due to the SNP position.

Agree with Ribbons, Sturgeon is just using the hunting vote for political power-play.  Doubtless she looks good to those north of the border....


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## Judgemental (14 July 2015)

ribbons said:



			We are heading for very dangerous times.
Whether you are pro hunting or anti is irrelevant here.
The Sturgeon woman has become power mad, she and her lot have openly admitted that the reason they will vote on this issue is to send a message to Cameron how slim his balance of power really is.
Whilst I realise fox hunting is of no real importance to any politician, it is hugely important to many rural communities including in scotland.
To openly admit to using this issue, (having already said it was of no interest to her) as a tool to poke Cameron, is not only insulting to the entire uk, it is unbelievably arrogant. In her head she holds all the cards and already rules the entire uk, very dangerous woman indeed.

Just to point out to anyone who is anti hunting, and applauds her move. Be very careful, she has no interest in hunting, one way or the other. The next issue she uses could well be one that is very dear to you. She won't care, providing it feeds her ego, she'll trample on anything in her way, she is so cocky, she admits to using this issue for her own ends on BBC news.
		
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As I said in my preceding post, "I suppose the Government could 'shoot the Labour fox' by adjourning or laying over the debate on the grounds the SNP voting on English and Welsh matters are unacceptable".      

Plainly that is what has now happened. Your comments Ribbons are very correct.

The position of the SNP and Mrs Sturgeon is wholly unacceptable.

The Government have been extremely clever in drawing Mrs Sturgeons covers, she has been hollered as 'gone away' and they are now on the run with the Government Pack in full cry after them.

As we are out of season it is highly entertaining.

So for my next prediction. In the interim, the SNP will realise they have made a huge constitutional mistake and English Votes for English Laws will be fast tracked. Indeed it would not surprise me if Parliament has the Summer recess shortened and or Parliament could be recalled to deal with the issue. After all Mrs Sturgeon is on record when she appeared on Question Time during the Election Campaign, as saying the SNP would not involve themselves in a vote concerning the Hunting Act 2004. 

The vote will probably came back to the H of C in October and it will be successful. By which time, hopefully, the Government will have organised a majority in the House of Lords


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## Lizzie66 (14 July 2015)

Judgemental said:



			The position of the SNP and Mrs Sturgeon is wholly unacceptable.

The Government have been extremely clever in drawing Mrs Sturgeons covers, she has been hollered as 'gone away' and they are now on the run with the Government Pack in full cry after them.

As we are out of season it is highly entertaining.
		
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Agreed she is going to posture that she has won a victory over the Government, whereas I think she has actually just been undone by a very wily PM.

He now has evidence to back up the fact that the SNP can't be trusted and that an informal "gentlemans agreement" won't work with the Scottish MPs. This will ensure that English/Welsh votes for English/Welsh laws will become enshrined in Law and it will likely mean that Labour will not have the ability to rule England for a long time to come.

Doesn't matter that it was a law that very few had a real genuine interest in, it is the credibility of the SNP that has been damaged.


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## Orangehorse (14 July 2015)

Well - falls around laughing at the hypocrisy of the SNP.  Will vote against legistlation that already exists in Scotland.  Phew, that takes the biscuit and all that!

Mind, you Pro Hunters, one MP on the radio said this morning that he had received 600 letters against any repeal.  Everyone had better get writing, all over again and deja vue.


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## fburton (14 July 2015)

Orangehorse said:



			Well - falls around laughing at the hypocrisy of the SNP.  Will vote against legistlation that already exists in Scotland.  Phew, that takes the biscuit and all that!
		
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The SNP aren't interested in hunting either - it's a purely political ploy. Are there really that many principled MPs these days? (Were there ever??)


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## Judgemental (14 July 2015)

Lizzie66 said:



			Agreed she is going to posture that she has won a victory over the Government, whereas I think she has actually just been undone by a very wily PM.

He now has evidence to back up the fact that the SNP can't be trusted and that an informal "gentlemans agreement" won't work with the Scottish MPs. This will ensure that English/Welsh votes for English/Welsh laws will become enshrined in Law and it will likely mean that Labour will not have the ability to rule England for a long time to come.

Doesn't matter that it was a law that very few had a real genuine interest in, it is the credibility of the SNP that has been damaged.
		
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The other useful element of this matter is the flushing out of the Tory Traitors. Indeed it appears there are a number of ministers who are misguided.

They should be given a chance to recant their heresy or be cast out. 

Coming as it does well before the opening meet, much can be done. In fact it could be, in the next round, full blown repeal might be achieved.

As for Mrs Sturgeon I have to admit I admired her and what she had achieved or not necessarily agreeing with her politics.

However she has welched on her word and from where I come from, that is a Cardinal Sin of the first magnitude.

David Cameron went to Burke House immediately after the election, not to be friendly but to weigh her up on her own turf and unless I am mistaken, he deduced she is, as they say in the West Country a 'wrong-un'. Not to be trusted. 

If she as a horse she would be ridden with a double bridle, draw reins and sharp spurs. Preferably  a nice pair of Chihuahua spurs with large rolls. That would teach her some manners.


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## Merlin11 (14 July 2015)

Judgemental I don't always agree with your views but I like your comments on Ms Sturgeon. I am scottish and not a fan of her or the SNP.


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## Exploding Chestnuts (14 July 2015)

I think she is very intelligent and more personable than her predecessor, but she has shown her naivety, the Westminster lot will plot and scheme, she needs to tread more carefully.


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## Orangehorse (14 July 2015)

Well the worst aspect of this is that Ms Sturgeon isn't even an elected Westminster MP.


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## Exploding Chestnuts (14 July 2015)

Orangehorse said:



			Well the worst aspect of this is that Ms Sturgeon isn't even an elected Westminster MP.
		
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I didn't elect Cameron and no one in Scotland voted Conservative!, or Labour!


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## Maesfen (14 July 2015)

Bonkers2 said:



			I didn't elect Cameron and no one in Scotland voted Conservative!, or Labour!
		
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In that case why did people vote to stay united?


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## Goldenstar (14 July 2015)

Just been talking with my brother who always has an interesting take on things .
Suggestion is that Cameron has drawn Sturgeons fire to stiffen up the resolve to take on the West Lothian issue .
I think the whole English votes for English laws thing is going to be a very hot potato.
As for Ms Sturgeon I 'thought 'she was in charge of a brave new type of principled government er no same old ,same old .  
Interesting times ahead .


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## Goldenstar (14 July 2015)

Bonkers2 said:



			I didn't elect Cameron and no one in Scotland voted Conservative!, or Labour!
		
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Not quite the labour / conserative / lib dem vote was around 36% 
So more than a third of those who voted did not vote SNP that's not no one .


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## Exploding Chestnuts (15 July 2015)

Goldenstar said:



			Not quite the labour / conserative / lib dem vote was around 36% 
So more than a third of those who voted did not vote SNP that's not no one .
		
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OK, well put it this way the only voter who has any clout is the SNP voter, the rest can bleat like the lost lambs they are, but it will make no difference. It is our kind of democracy.
For those who asked why we voted NO in the referendum, that was because 90% of the population put their mark on that paper, but in the general election only 60 odd % turned out, as the consequences are less long lasting and the matter is of less import.


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## Goldenstar (15 July 2015)

Bonkers2 said:



			OK, well put it this way the only voter who has any clout is the SNP voter, the rest can bleat like the lost lambs they are, but it will make no difference. It is our kind of democracy.
For those who asked why we voted NO in the referendum, that was because 90% of the population put their mark on that paper, but in the general election only 60 odd % turned out, as the consequences are less long lasting and the matter is of less import.
		
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I afraid your attitude smacks of a one party state type mind set.
Add those who did not turn out to that 36% and it can't be said in any form that the SNP are universally supported in Scotland .
The quality of a political party can be judged in a large part by how they behave towards those who disagree with them .
Looking from the outside the SNP do a good line in bleating themselves in fact their always an telly bleating about something most English people can't care less about .


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## popsdosh (15 July 2015)

History will show the the SNP have been totally out foxed on this one and i would not surprise me if labour were not in on it! apparently they had begged for SNP support to defeat the amendment ,lets face it they are not exactly the best of mates after the election. Labour would love to see the SNP getting a kicking! 
Did anybody seriously believe that the PM who has been so outspoken on repeal would have brought forward such a soft change to the act if he was serious about the repeal. It was always going to be used for a kick in the teeth to the two faced NS and the SNP. She has sacrificed all her credibility over a vote that would have merely modified the number of hounds used to flush a fox. Indeed to same extent they have in Scotland and however much they protest they never had any intention of changing the act in Scotland . However I really feel that hunting in Scotland may now suffer a vindictive attack from Her and her cronies.


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## popsdosh (15 July 2015)

Bonkers2 said:



			I think she is very intelligent and more personable than her predecessor, but she has shown her naivety, the Westminster lot will plot and scheme, she needs to tread more carefully.
		
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So were a lot of the cruel dictators in history,its the only way to win people over to obtain the power in the first place . I hope in 5yrs time everybody in Scotland feels the same about the SNP,thats if you are able to vote of course!!!


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## ribbons (15 July 2015)

To me, the SNP resembles a spoilt brat. Kevin & Perry style.
It doesn't matter what happens its never good enough for them. Everything is unfair, everyone else has it better than them, they should have the best of everything, they throw strops when they don't get their own way. Its all me me me.

Salmond was bad enough, Sturgeon has taken it to another level. I'm just amazed the Scottish people can't see the size of her ego. Her opinion of herself is unbelievable, the Scottish people come a very poor second to her own inflated sense of personal importance, and will ultimately be detrimental to the country.


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## Exploding Chestnuts (15 July 2015)

ribbons said:



			Salmond was bad enough, Sturgeon has taken it to another level. I'm just amazed the Scottish people can't see the size of her ego. Her opinion of herself is unbelievable, the Scottish people come a very poor second to her own inflated sense of personal importance, and will ultimately be detrimental to the country.
		
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Crikey, compared to Blair she is a mere novice, and look how well he has done [for himself], and he was a very popular party leader and PM.
A leader has to be self-confident, or they cannot be a leader..............

This is not really about fox hunting surely, it is about power, and the PM is perfectly happy to use his power, why wouldn't he?


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## Merlin11 (15 July 2015)

Some of us in Scotland can see through her and the SNP but unfortunately we are in the minority at the moment. Unfortunately I think she will have to do some real damage before more people can see that they are not good for Scotland. As far as I can see they have yet to come up with any real workable policies. They just like to complain about everyone else's and hopefully more scots will start to realise this. She may be clever but I think David C and the Tories will outwit her.


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## ribbons (15 July 2015)

Bonkers2 said:



			Crikey, compared to Blair she is a mere novice, and look how well he has done [for himself], and he was a very popular party leader and PM.
A leader has to be self-confident, or they cannot be a leader..............

This is not really about fox hunting surely, it is about power, and the PM is perfectly happy to use his power, why wouldn't he?
		
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You're dead right about one thing. It has absolutely nothing to do with fox hunting. 
That is the one issue Sturgeon once claimed she had no interest in voting on.
Of course its about power, and the crazy woman is trying to flex her muscles and show she has some.
Reminiscent of the play ground, and like all spoilt children, she will be slapped down eventually.
Silly silly woman, playing a dangerous game at the expense of Scottish people, and to the detriment of the uk as a whole.


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## KautoStar1 (15 July 2015)

Judgemental said:



			. 

If she as a horse she would be ridden with a double bridle, draw reins and sharp spurs. Preferably  a nice pair of Chihuahua spurs with large rolls. That would teach her some manners.
		
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bl**dy hell, I am glad I am not your horse JM !


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## Judgemental (15 July 2015)

KautoStar1 said:



			bl**dy hell, I am glad I am not your horse JM !
		
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KautoStar, our horses have perfect manners.

On a serious point I see Merlin (based in Scotland) inferred that the people of Scotland were beginning to see through Mrs S. I think her novelty will lose momentum.


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## Meowy Catkin (15 July 2015)

So do we need a federal system where most issues are voted for by the local government (so Welsh MP's vote about Welsh issues at the Welsh Assembly, and the same for the English, Scottish and NI equivalents) and then big issues that affect everyone (eg defence) are at a higher level of government and MP's from all the countries that make up Great Britain can vote?


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## {51248} (15 July 2015)

Lizzie66 said:



			Agreed she is going to posture that she has won a victory over the Government, whereas I think she has actually just been undone by a very wily PM.
		
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Hmmm, I dont really think so.  Yes, Cameron has side-stepped.... for the moment.  But what's going to happen when the hunting bill comes up again in Parliament... or something more important that cant be easily postponed.  Sturgeon can just start the power-play all over again.


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## Goldenstar (15 July 2015)

pakkasham said:



			Hmmm, I dont really think so.  Yes, Cameron has side-stepped.... for the moment.  But what's going to happen when the hunting bill comes up again in Parliament... or something more important that cant be easily postponed.  Sturgeon can just start the power-play all over again.
		
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What's the bet the hunting bill does not come before parliament before the West Lothian question has been at least in part addressed.


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## Lizzie66 (15 July 2015)

pakkasham said:



			Hmmm, I dont really think so.  Yes, Cameron has side-stepped.... for the moment.  But what's going to happen when the hunting bill comes up again in Parliament... or something more important that cant be easily postponed.  Sturgeon can just start the power-play all over again.
		
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Well that depends on whether you think DC wants the West Lothian question answering. I would imagine he will now be able to garner full support from the Tory MPs to ensure that it is put to bed once and for all.

Once he has it enshrined in law that MPs can only vote on matters that affect their constituencies then he will be laughing. It will make life a lot more difficult for Labour to get a ruling majority in England and once the law is brought in then it would take a brave PM to repeal it.

This could effectively see the Conservatives ruling the largest part of the Union for many years to come.

To me it looks like they are playing chess and whilst NS is looking at the next move he is looking at the end game.

PS: having said that maybe NS is also playing the long game but not with regard to gaining influence over the UK but by making it impossible for Scotland and the rest of the UK to work together and thereby forcing the split ?


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