# personality change in my 4 year old since backing, now hes getting dangerous



## patch1234 (5 November 2012)

My 4 year old was sent away to be backed and schooled with a very professional rider.  His backing was fantastic and he has turned into an up and coming eventer with huge potential.

Before he went away he was mild mannered, virtually unspookable, kind and willing.  He was good in the stable and easily rugged, booted ect.

Since coming home he weaves in the stable quite violently at feed time, he smashes his head on any one trying to sort out his rugs, he will not stand still to be groomed, he is bolshy in the stable and outside and tonight he tried to bite both myself and his regular groom.  

He was kept in nearly 24/7 at the backing yard (i just found this out) but ridden every day.  He was at the yard 12 weeks due to being so impressive with his training but I felt he should come home for a break.

I tried to lunge him and he went beserk, but did eventually calm down but he is becoming more impossible as the days go on.

I turn him out 8am - 5pm with a friend he comes in at night as fields very wet.  He is fed adlib hay and a high fibre feed from chestnut horse feeds for horses at rest, he does get a small amount of speedi beet added, this is morning and night.

Please can any one advice as I am an experienced horse owner but this personality change is the most dramatic i have seen.


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## Tai.Ni.Po.Ni (5 November 2012)

patch1234 said:



			My 4 year old was sent away to be backed and schooled with a very professional rider.  His backing was fantastic and he has turned into an up and coming eventer with huge potential.

Before he went away he was mild mannered, virtually unspookable, kind and willing.  He was good in the stable and easily rugged, booted ect.

Since coming home he weaves in the stable quite violently at feed time, he smashes his head on any one trying to sort out his rugs, he will not stand still to be groomed, he is bolshy in the stable and outside and tonight he tried to bite both myself and his regular groom.  

He was kept in nearly 24/7 at the backing yard (i just found this out) but ridden every day.  He was at the yard 12 weeks due to being so impressive with his training but I felt he should come home for a break.

I tried to lunge him and he went beserk, but did eventually calm down but he is becoming more impossible as the days go on.

I turn him out 8am - 5pm with a friend he comes in at night as fields very wet.  He is fed adlib hay and a high fibre feed from chestnut horse feeds for horses at rest, he does get a small amount of speedi beet added, this is morning and night.

Please can any one advice as I am an experienced horse owner but this personality change is the most dramatic i have seen.
		
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how long has he been back with you ? going from 9 hours a day turn out to none has probably been quite stressful for him, id just give hime time to settle and do lots of ground work with him. dont ask too much of him just let him chill for a while.


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## Surreydeb (5 November 2012)

Sounds one very unhappy horse perhaps done too much too soon?


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## Jesstickle (5 November 2012)

what was he like whilst he was away? Was he this unsettled on their yard too? I'm surprised he was in for three months solid and you've only just found this out. I would be seriously unimpressed if my 4yo wasn't turned out for three months personally and would have had him home long ago if I'd known.

Is he working now, how long has he been back?


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## be positive (5 November 2012)

Several things come to mind, he may have been like this while away and they just worked him harder to keep a lid on him, possibly partly why they wanted to keep him longer, did you ride him there or do any work with him to get a feel of how he was working. 
The break, lack of work, change to his routine may not suit, I have one here that was so much better the first winter when not turned out daily he seemed to need the discipline of stable/ work/ stable he has grown up now and is much more mannerly.
He could have a physical reason if worked hard, back, ulcers would be two things to rule out.


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## muckypony (5 November 2012)

I find horses often change arpund 4 years old an try it on, but this sounds quite dramatic... Maybe he's been asked a bit too much too soon? IMO being ridden every day for 12weeks when being backed is far too much...

I would maybe turn away for a bit and let him take everything in. Is there any way you can turn out 24/7? He might have really hated being in all the time and is fed up with being stabled.


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## Renvers (5 November 2012)

12 weeks in work - sounds like he needs to be turned away for a while to settle back to himself. 

Might also be worth doing the regular phys, back etc checks after all that muscle development,if you haven't done them already.


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## tallyho! (5 November 2012)

Wholeheartedly agree that this horse has definitely suffered a broken spirit among other things. Soured to the point of violence. I don't know what to suggest but his backing sounds very hurried for a four year old.

Anyway, I'm sure this is not usual. I would say just try to keep him in a routine as much as possible, don't stop his workload of you can but reduce it although I would rule out ridden until you can rule out physical causes to his behaviour. Perhaps veterinary intervention with sedatives to check him over properly. 

I would be investigating exactly what happened to him at the yard. I would be most unhappy!


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## patch1234 (5 November 2012)

I would agree that he probably did do too much at once but the trainer assured me his routine was perfectly acceptable and i visited weekly and all seemed well.  However I did notice all stables had anti weave grills fitted which may mean nothing but i did notice it.

He is out 9 hours, if kept in in the day he is awful, he just wants out.  when in field he is his normal self.  At 5pm he is stood at gate waiting to come in.

Yes he is unhappy as his actions show but I cannot figure out why.  His lifestyle now is more relaxed, he is out with his friend/s, not overstuffed with concentrates, not over rugged, regular routine, big clean stable so where am I going wrong?  Hes been home 3 weeks.


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## Jesstickle (5 November 2012)

Three weeks isn't overly long if you're a horse. Some of them take three months to settle after they move (I have the misfortune of having one of these )

I'd give him a couple more weeks of what you're doing and see how he goes. If no better I would start thinking about having the vet to him, particularly thinking about ulcers as if he was in 24/7 and didn't have constant ad-lib hay this is where my mind would go.


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## tallyho! (5 November 2012)

Be patient. Three weeks is nothing for an animal that never forgets. Just hope he can forgive...?

I'm sure with love and care, he will become his sweet self again, he is probably just being untrusting right now. Be consistent and be fair with him and keep him in a routine in which he seems happiest. Reintroduce work next spring maybe. Reward him for any positive behaviours.


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## Gingerwitch (5 November 2012)

I do think he has had a bit of a rough backing - and i would not be happy that my young horse had had no turn out for 12 weeks and that he was ridden every da, do you know how long his sessions were?

But what is done is done.

Me - I would turn him out for as much as possible, take him off any hard feed, get his teeth checked - and give him the winter off.

Unless you can get him somewhere for 24 hour turn out??

Then i would look at slowly slowly next year.


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## Goldenstar (5 November 2012)

Get him checked for ulcers ASAP .


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## Meowy Catkin (5 November 2012)

I would turn him away (out 24/7 with friends) for the winter and bring him back into work in the spring. Do not send him back to the yard that backed him, get someone to help you at your yard.


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## patch1234 (5 November 2012)

Just catching up on your answers:

He was 4 years old June, held off until a bit later as I felt he was a bit gangly to be backed.

Before he went away he was out as and when he could be day and night depending on weather.

He was kind but very much a blood animal so not as placid as some cobs.

The chap who backed him is highly recommended but I know he does not turn out much.

My horse was due to be there 6 weeks but due to him being so talanted it was suggested i keep him there longer for schooling in order to enter the 4 year old classes.

I felt he was safe and although he wasnt his usual cuddly self at all times I was assured this is normal during the backing process my vet also knew the backing yard and highly recommended it so I felt no need to worry.

He did come home muscled up, and very much a competion horse (if you get what i mean) now i dont know what to do to make him happy.

I do not ride him as to be honest dont really trust him now with his behaviour plus i wanted to give him a break.


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## muckypony (5 November 2012)

patch1234 said:



			My horse was due to be there 6 weeks but due to him being so talanted it was suggested i keep him there longer for schooling in order to enter the 4 year old classes.
		
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This just doesn't sound right to me


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## Gingerwitch (5 November 2012)

Sorry to say this but it really annoys me, you trusted the "professional" but they were greedy.

Yes horse was talented and willing, now he is just talented.

6 weeks for backing correctly is more than enough for the first session.

Can you get hold of Janet George - she would be my first port of call on this


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## patch1234 (5 November 2012)

Thank you so much for your answers its awful seeing your horse unhappy and i do feel guilty that i cant seem to get him to feel secure again.  I will get him checked for ulcers and i will give him a couple of weeks more in the routine he is in.  I will do what ever it takes to get him back to his self im just worried he has been ruined and it was my fault for sending him there in the first place.


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## Pearlsasinger (5 November 2012)

patch1234 said:



			I would agree that he probably did do too much at once but the trainer assured me his routine was perfectly acceptable and i visited weekly and all seemed well.  However I did notice all stables had anti weave grills fitted which may mean nothing but i did notice it.
		
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Some people who are taking money from you are less than honest.  The routine may have been acceptable to the trainer but obviously wasn't to the horse.  Why on earth did the horse need to be with this trainer for 3 months?
I'd give him a bit longer to settle back with you, have his back etc checked in case of sore muscles, without riding him and if in a couple of weeks or so he is no better, turn him away.  It does sound as if he has been put under far too much pressure, too young.


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## Gingerwitch (5 November 2012)

patch1234 - stop it - at least you are listening to your horse now- many wouldn't.

We can all regret stuff - it does not help the situation as well i know.

Has he got wolf teeth by any chance ?


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## Tinypony (5 November 2012)

Patch, I guess if you say where you are you might worry that it will hint at the identity of the trainer.  Personally, I agree with what the others are saying and I would contact a holistic vet.  I use Tim Couzens, he's a qualified vet, and he's amazing.  There are others that people recommend as well, I just can't think of the names at the moment.  
I think he needs a good break.  I'd actually work around the things that upset him rather than insisting.  Will he let you groom him away from the stable?  Even change his rugs away from the stable?  Or - modern rugs are fine to go from field and stay on in the stable - what about that?  And take his rug off somewhere he relaxes to re-seat it and check him over.  He sounds like a horse that is anticipating unpleasant experiences, in the stable and nearby, and when being lunged.  I've known over-schooled horses that have developed such a fear of arenas they've become impossible to ride in one (it can be overcome though with patience).  Does he settle in the stable if there's nobody about?  Could he go into a stable where he has company, but not a lot of "traffic" from people and horses going past.  Can you get it all set up with his dinner inside before he goes in, and just take his headcollar off and leave him in peace?  (Heck, I've got so many ideas about this, have had some experience, pm me if it might help).
Then, when your horse remembers what it is to be a horse, someone like Janet George might be the one to turn to.  Definitely a trainer who comes 100% recommended by trusted people.
Sadly your story is all too familiar.  But don't beat yourself up, we all put our trust in experts, and normally it's the right thing to do.

Oh heck, and yes, check for ulcers, and get a general back, teeth and tack check.


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## patch1234 (5 November 2012)

Thank you for the kind words, yes I did trust the trainer and to be honest I found him to be great and he rides like a dream and my horse looked fantastic when ridden, but maybe i took my eye off the ball and relied on others a bit too much.

I will try and change rugs in a different place and see if that works.

Tomorrow he is going out with an old friend of his which he may prefer.

I am worried because i dont want him to hurt anyone so im becoming angry with him but i know its not his fault.

Tomorrow i will try the various bits of advice i have been given and see if it helps.

I cant say the area im in as the chap is too well known and like i said before I think hes great at what he does, but in this instance my chap wasnt coping and i didnt see it.


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## angelish (5 November 2012)

hi 
this might be completely irrelevant but i thought i'd mention it 

my horse is a big soft puff and takes a long time to settle ,last year he had an injury that required traveling to the vets ,he was a perfect gent at the vets and looked really settled but on returning home he was a nightmare for weeks ,really unsettled ,box walking ,grumpy , screaming for his friends and generally upset 
he behaved the same when i took him to camp for a couple of days ,perfect gent and looked settled while he was there but on coming home it took him ages to settle down 

i never figured out why he behaved like this as i'd have expected him to be upset in the strange yard 

might be of no help to you at all but it might just be worth trying him in a very stricked routine for a few weeks to see if he settles ,maybe lay off the work load in case there is pain anywhere ,good luck hope you get to the bottom of it


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## Flicker51 (5 November 2012)

Faracat said:



			I would turn him away (out 24/7 with friends) for the winter and bring him back into work in the spring. Do not send him back to the yard that backed him, get someone to help you at your yard.
		
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This - absolutely !


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## Luci07 (5 November 2012)

Sorry you are having to go through this. in fairness, some 4 year olds will thrive on more work, some need more time to grow up physically, some, like mine, look great but have not caught up mentally. We have a 4 year old mare on the yard who is going on 20 in terms of her attitude but she is kept back a little so she can grow. Another 4 year old who is loving change and a 5 year old who has to go slowly as he keeps growing and needs new things introduced slowly. That one is mine!

My YO last year had a newly backed 5 year old who just went great guns. She still stopped everything mid season and gave him a good break as felt he needed time to chill again. Then he came back into work and did his first CC1* this season so must have done something right!


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## patch1234 (5 November 2012)

Thank you very much for all your replies.  I will take the advice given.


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## Doormouse (5 November 2012)

Faracat said:



			I would turn him away (out 24/7 with friends) for the winter and bring him back into work in the spring. Do not send him back to the yard that backed him, get someone to help you at your yard.
		
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I'm firmly in this camp too, you cannot beat a complete break for a horse to help with stress. Does I'm afraid sound very much like he has been asked too much and you should try and take the pressure off. Turning away in a big field with a few others is usually the best way to do this. Let him be a horse again, not a human plaything which I suspect is what he feels he is now.
Really hope you get it sorted, it's so heartbreaking when people abuse yours and the horses trust.


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## Theocat (5 November 2012)

What was he like when he first came home?

On the face of it I'd be saying too much too fast and chuck him out for the winter, but you say he's gradually got worse since he came back ... I'm just wondering if he's just feeling very fit, and after all the mental stimulation a bit bored on top of feeling fit...?  I don't mean you should just keep on with the same workload, but it might be another thing to think about.


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## Equilibrium Ireland (5 November 2012)

I can't say this enough. I do not care if your horse is 3,4, or 10. Breaking should be a time for the horse to enjoy learning. Especially with quick and talented learners which are extra eager to please. You should not be hearing things about how talented your horse is from a breaker. You should be hearing he's happy, he enjoys learning, and quite relaxed while outside rolling in muck giving me extra work to do in the evenings. You do not go from zero to 60 and expect to have a nice calm well adjusted animal. Breaking is learning the ropes on being ridden. It's about confidence for your horse. Confidence to know things will not happen too fast too soon. Confidence in that the person on their back is looking out for them and will never ask them questions they do not understand. Or abuse the fact the horse tries very hard to please.

And again, never ever send your horses somewhere you can't just show up when you want. Within reason of course. Normal yard hours. Make sure you see your horse in work and you get to ride too. Poor baby horse. He's had his brain fried. 

I would not lunge this horse. In and out. He will settle but it will take time. You will have to be patient. 

Terri


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## MrsMozart (5 November 2012)

Others have wise words, so I'll only add: take him off the sugarbeet and see if that makes a difference. One of our horses is very sensitive to sugars and literally goes loopy when on it. The behaviour issues built up and up until we clicked what it was. 

Hope you get sorted with the lad.


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## seabsicuit2 (5 November 2012)

Sounds like a Typical 'professional ' yard f¥ck up job.
You can't trust any of these places with a barge pole.
Bet you that your horse was left in 24-7, Hardly fed anything. Exercised sporadically by working pupils for 10 mins 3 times a week if you're lucky. Not mucked out and left with little/no rugs on.

They obviously didn't do right by him. Your horse should come back from a professional yard happy, secure, and looking and behaving superbly. No matter what his age . Anything less is not good enough- I would be looking for a refund !


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## Pascal96 (5 November 2012)

Im afraid that it is because your horse is talented that this has happened and the professional trainer has seen another chance to enhance his reputation and has pushed your horse much too hard too young.  I am not a great lover of young horse competitions as to do well they have to be trained to perform at quite a high level before they are ready mentally.  Also the conditions that your horse was kept in will not have helped as he appears to have gone from regular turn out to being confined all the time unless being worked.  I should think that at the moment he is feeling very confused and shattered mentally as well as physically and as the others have said I think that the best for him will be to turn him away for the winter and allow him to wind down and start him again slowly in the spring.


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## patch1234 (5 November 2012)

seabsicuit2 said:



			Sounds like a Typical 'professional ' yard f¥ck up job.
You can't trust any of these places with a barge pole.
Bet you that your horse was left in 24-7, Hardly fed anything. Exercised sporadically by working pupils for 10 mins 3 times a week if you're lucky. Not mucked out and left with little/no rugs on.

They obviously didn't do right by him. Your horse should come back from a professional yard happy, secure, and looking and behaving superbly. No matter what his age . Anything less is not good enough- I would be looking for a refund !
		
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This was not the case. No working pupils only ridden by the trainer to a very high standard, I cant give name away but breaks best dressage horses in the country, used by the absolute best in the country, i cant say any more as i do not have a problem with him what so ever.  Yes my horse is extremely talanted, potential Badminton, this is why i think problem has occured as he may be talanted but the mind wasnt mature enough to cope.  I saw him ridden reguarly he was fantastic and did all that was asked of him with no problems, even shocked trainer with jumping ability.  

He was fed 3x daily, hay 3 x daily but did not have the turnout.  For some horses this is perfectly acceptable and he never seemed to complain.

All the problems have showed up at home, unless they were hidden at the yard??


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## Meowy Catkin (5 November 2012)

but did not have the turnout. For some horses this is perfectly acceptable and he never seemed to complain.
		
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Not acceptable for any horse, unless the horse is on box rest IMO. 

Also illegal in Germany and Sweden, IIRC.


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## patch1234 (5 November 2012)

Faracat said:



			Not acceptable for any horse, unless the horse is on box rest IMO. 

Also illegal in Germany and Sweden, IIRC.
		
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Totally agree and in hindsight would never allow it to happen, at the time i listened to alot of professional advice which did not suit my horse at all, but its hard to ignore those at the top of their game.


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## Meowy Catkin (5 November 2012)

I really feel for you and your boy. Hopefully he will come right with a bit of time.


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## Gingerwitch (5 November 2012)

patch1234 - i think you may have summed up the trainer - he breaks horses - if he was the talented professinal he claims to be he would have been on the phone after 6 to 8 weeks saying your lad needs a break now till the spring.... i will book him in then for another 12 weeks - and you would have done it without hesitation.

Many a good horse is ruined by trainers ego's they soon forget that they are not being paid to just do a job, that they are being entrusted with someons pride and joy.

The trainer - i dont care whom he is - was bang out of order - and i bet if you sniff around you will hear of a good many horses whom this ******** has ruined with his ego.


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## Tinypony (5 November 2012)

My friend has two beautiful and valuable warmbloods that were ruined by a professional dressage trainer, who also worked with "the best".  As she herself was a novice, it took her years to get to the point where she could help them, but she has.  I doubt that your horse is ruined, it is likely that with a good break and the right care he will come right again.
By the way, some horses look really settled, extremely relaxed, when in a new environment.  It can be misleading, the can be shut down.  Sometimes we don't realise until they come away from that situation and start to "express" themselves.


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## cptrayes (5 November 2012)

Goldenstar said:



			Get him checked for ulcers ASAP .
		
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THIS!


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## wench (5 November 2012)

Ah professional riders... The work of the Devil...

Sorry too many people on here saying that professionals are no good. So we should all have our horses on DIY livery and no one else is allowed to touch them, let alone ride them?

We don't know where the horse has been sent, nor do we know the horse or the owner, so jumping to conclusions about any is not on (especially if someone figures out who the pro is, and then a reputation gets ruined).

One of my horses was far happier on a pros yard with little turnout than he was turned out 24/7.


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## Equilibrium Ireland (6 November 2012)

Wench, not all pro's are bad. Very quick learners that have everything together physically are the easiest to ruin mentally. The damage is done before you know it. I don't think they did anything cruel. Just went a bit too fast for him mentally. Not intentionally. This trainer obviously deals with many nice horses. The OP's horse seems extra special and riding that was probably a treat. 

He will be fine eventually. OP knows what she's at. An ulcer protocol certainly couldn't hurt with vet advice. 

Good luck with your talented youngster.

Terri


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## Tinypony (6 November 2012)

I don't see people jumping to conclusions, I see them trying to work out what is going on with this horse based on facts given.  I also think it would be really difficult to try to work out which "professional" is involved from the thread, so no reputations are harmed!  A professional is someone taking money for what they do, so inevitably there will be some who are better than others.


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## Amymay (6 November 2012)

OP I would now turn him away until the spring - give him a complete break.


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## PeterNatt (6 November 2012)

Your horse was in a happy environment and routine.  He was sent away to unfamiliar surroundings to be educated by people he had no bond with at all.  He has been deprived of his normal daily routine and unable to get any relaxation in a field because he is confined to his stable.  He has probably also been fed different feed.  All these things will effect him and will potentially have blown his mind.  Now you have got him back get him back in to the relaxed daily routine he was used to before sending him away but I would suspect it is going to take some time for him to come right.


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## Ladyinred (6 November 2012)

Turn him away, please. 

I can understand the temptation to a trainer to carry on with a talented horse but it does them no favours to ask so much of them mentally.

We back ours, then turn away. Later we start them properly and turn them away again. They never forget what they have learned and they have the time to relax and not worry. From your description of his behaviour I think you risk long term damage unless you take radical steps to change things now. A break in the field, just being a horse, would do him the world of good.

Also, I took from your posts that he is fine to handle when outside. That must tell you something? He NEEDS time off to chill out.


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## Daytona (6 November 2012)

Stick him I  a field for winter, chuck him hay and a bucket and just leave him alone to grow and mature and bring him back next spring and I'm sure he will be fine . 
Don't bear yourself up over this , some horses would of coped , he didn't you did not know this would happen.  It's not your fault and its fixable a decent break will see him right. 

Forget 4 year old classes, just let him chill out.  He has many years to prove himself.


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## Daytona (6 November 2012)

Blame not bear


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## Jesstickle (6 November 2012)

wench said:



			Ah professional riders... The work of the Devil...

Sorry too many people on here saying that professionals are no good. So we should all have our horses on DIY livery and no one else is allowed to touch them, let alone ride them?

We don't know where the horse has been sent, nor do we know the horse or the owner, so jumping to conclusions about any is not on (especially if someone figures out who the pro is, and then a reputation gets ruined).

One of my horses was far happier on a pros yard with little turnout than he was turned out 24/7.
		
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I have no problem with people sending horses away. Mine went for six weeks and has only been back a month! BUT clearly in this case it has done the horse no favours at all. My horse came back MORE relaxed than when she went not less unlike in the OP's case. 

The horse was happy and chilled and is now a nervous wreck with a stable vice. Hardly ideal.Something has gone wrong in this instance. I don't think it's jumping to conclusions to point this out


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## dornrose (6 November 2012)

Have you spoken to the trainer and asked them whether this is normal for how your horse was when he was there? 

Is it possible to get him out to see him and possibly ride him?

I sent one of mine on training livery after weaning a foal, and he involved me every step of the way, yes we did have some issues when she came home but with his help I worked through them.


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## JanetGeorge (6 November 2012)

What does the trainer say about this devastating change in your horse's personality?  If I heard that a horse that was backed here had gone home to behave in a totally out-of-character way, I'd be over to the owner's yard like a shot - to SEE what was so different - and to see if the problem was associated with people - or with place.

There are a number of possible causes for this 'change' - even if he was sympathetically treated at the trainer's yard.  The trainer should be the one to look for them - and help you put them right.  Turning him out and 'leaving him' for the winter is unlikely to be the cure!


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## Ladyinred (6 November 2012)

JG I think this will be the first time I have ever disagreed with anything you have written!!

This was a young horse, pushed extremely hard, for 12 weeks and who went from being out 24/7 to stabled 24/7 in that same period. I think his mind has been blown and he needs turning away to learn how to relax and be a horse again.


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## Christsam (6 November 2012)

Hmm sounds like it is a case of so much of a change and stress that it has blown his mind.  This is exactly why I am thinking very carefully about sending mine away to be broken as I think my boy would react in this way too.  12 weeks of hard work is a lot of a  4 year old, especially with the fact he hasnt been going out and he is in a different place, with different people and feed, etc.  Turn him away for the winter and give him some time to settle back in.


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## Cortez (6 November 2012)

Just playing devil's advocate here, but if the horse was settled and happy at the trainers throughout his time away and only started acting this way when he returned home to his baby routine, perhaps it is this routine which is distressing him? Perhaps he needs the work and stimulation?


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## YasandCrystal (6 November 2012)

I think the horse has been 'overcooked' - he is at home now and feels he can 'express' himself to you as the owner OP and this is why you are seeing this extreme behaviour.  He could have ulcers if he got stressed at the trainers.

I would as others have said turn him away for the winter and let him be a baby horse for a few months - it will pay back dividends I am sure.

I did exactly this with my WB last winter - he had also been 'overcooked' whilst in pain and abused.  The break gave him time to sort his head out and this summer he has been a different horse; happy and chilled.


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## showpony (6 November 2012)

Horses mind has been blown I reckon from the intensity of work & then change of routine when you brought him back. Turn away for the winter, possibly look at doing lots of ground work with him & bring him back into light work for the Spring. Horse in only 4, there is now rushing just to get him to the 4YO classes.. too much too soon will also make him stale in couple yrs time.


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## kirstykate (6 November 2012)

Cortez said:



			Just playing devil's advocate here, but if the horse was settled and happy at the trainers throughout his time away and only started acting this way when he returned home to his baby routine, perhaps it is this routine which is distressing him? Perhaps he needs the work and stimulation?
		
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These are my thoughts as well, if he is a super talented he probably thrives on work, are you sure he is not taking the mick and seeing how far he can push you?  Maybe you dont do things in the same way as the trainer and thats confusing him?  Just remember it might not be him with the faults.


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## mcnaughty (6 November 2012)

amymay said:



			OP I would now turn him away until the spring - give him a complete break.
		
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This.  I assume he was clipped out though for this level of work so gentle roughing off.  Let him be a horse again and if you don't have 24/7 turnout, I personally would consider moving him to retired/youngstock grazing until the end of Feb ish.

Best of luck - you obviously really care about your boy - I'm sure not all is lost.

x


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## Tinypony (6 November 2012)

JanetGeorge said:



			What does the trainer say about this devastating change in your horse's personality?  If I heard that a horse that was backed here had gone home to behave in a totally out-of-character way, I'd be over to the owner's yard like a shot - to SEE what was so different - and to see if the problem was associated with people - or with place.

There are a number of possible causes for this 'change' - even if he was sympathetically treated at the trainer's yard.  The trainer should be the one to look for them - and help you put them right.  Turning him out and 'leaving him' for the winter is unlikely to be the cure!
		
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Unlikely that anyone is going to let an owner see them working a horse unsympathetically, or any negative aspect of their horse care.  Particularly if that owner is returning to find out why their horse has come home weaving and stressed even with simple tasks like rugging.  
Even if a horse is "super talented" and "thrives on work" you shouldn't see the sort of changes that op is describing just because they come home to a slightly more relaxed routine.  And if that is to be expected then surely there is something wrong with the world of horse training?


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## kirstykate (6 November 2012)

Tinypony said:



			Unlikely that anyone is going to let an owner see them working a horse unsympathetically, or any negative aspect of their horse care.  Particularly if that owner is returning to find out why their horse has come home weaving and stressed even with simple tasks like rugging.  
Even if a horse is "super talented" and "thrives on work" you shouldn't see the sort of changes that op is describing just because they come home to a slightly more relaxed routine.  And if that is to be expected then surely there is something wrong with the world of horse training?
		
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Maybe but the OP could be the one causing the problem.  Maybe the horse doesnt like being fussed and fannied with.  He maybe thrives on a no-nonsense routine now.


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## JanetGeorge (6 November 2012)

kirstykate said:



			Maybe but the OP could be the one causing the problem.  Maybe the horse doesnt like being fussed and fannied with.  He maybe thrives on a no-nonsense routine now.
		
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There may be a bit of that involved.  He may have settled into a new routine that kept him busy - and tired.  He may be missing the work and testing the boundaries.  But it seems rather more than that.  I suspect he may have developed ulcers due to the strict routine, lack of turnout, and perhaps rather harsh discipline.  But I still think the trainer should be the first port of call.  He KNOWS the horse - none of us (except the ower of course) do.  

And even if his brain IS fried, I don't think immediate turning away is the way to go.  He will spend the winter remembering HOW he earned a holiday!!  He'll remember his last behaviours - and they're bad.  He needs to be brought back into hand - kindly but firmly - and THEN be let-up forf a short while!


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## siennamum (6 November 2012)

I wouldn't be in a rush to turn the horse away, just to go against the grain.

Sounds like he's come back ready for action with muscle and condition and somewhat overstimulated. I bet if the trainer had him back he would be sweet as a nut under saddle but slowly develop stable vices.

If he were mine I would reestablish my relationship with the horse with ground work, he will be needing to know where his place is in the world after the change,. I would completely stop giving hard food, and ensure he gets lots of turn out and time with his mates.

He would pretty much be rebacked, slowly and kindly, lots of ground work & lunging/long reining to get him to accept life isn't wildly exciting and then aim to be hacking quietly again before turning him away for a couple of months after Christmas.


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## kirstykate (6 November 2012)

JanetGeorge said:



			There may be a bit of that involved.  He may have settled into a new routine that kept him busy - and tired.  He may be missing the work and testing the boundaries.  But it seems rather more than that.  I suspect he may have developed ulcers due to the strict routine, lack of turnout, and perhaps rather harsh discipline.  But I still think the trainer should be the first port of call.  He KNOWS the horse - none of us (except the ower of course) do.  

And even if his brain IS fried, I don't think immediate turning away is the way to go.  He will spend the winter remembering HOW he earned a holiday!!  He'll remember his last behaviours - and they're bad.  He needs to be brought back into hand - kindly but firmly - and THEN be let-up forf a short while!
		
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It very well could be ulcers, but if the horse is as good as the OP states then he will have a quirk or 2!!  Horses can change with work, and there is a possibility that he is too much for his owner now, maybe its a mans horse now.  I dont think it should be turned away either until the issues have been resolved.


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## M_G (6 November 2012)

amymay said:



			OP I would now turn him away until the spring - give him a complete break.
		
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I would do ^^^ but I would still bring him in the stable at nights and have him tied up and groomed

Please dont beat yourself up about it you did what you truly believed was the right thing.. We have all dont things which in hindsight we would not have done but that's life we live and learn. 

Please keep us updated x


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## M_G (6 November 2012)

dornrose said:



			Have you spoken to the trainer and asked them whether this is normal for how your horse was when he was there? 

Is it possible to get him out to see him and possibly ride him?

I sent one of mine on training livery after weaning a foal, and he involved me every step of the way, yes we did have some issues when she came home but with his help I worked through them.
		
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Oooo I do like this Idea


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## charlie76 (6 November 2012)

I wouldn't turn him away either.  The horse you sent was a soft,  unfit horse,  he has come back to you fit and ready to do things.  At the pros yard he wouldn't have been fussed with,  he would have just been handled in a professional manner. You obviously sent him to that particular trainer as you want him to be your competition horse and that's what they have produced.  
Imo you need to carry on and crack on with him,  work him in th manner he has come accustomed to. Get him out and about and then see if he settles.  If he is weaving put a grill up,  if he is naughty to handle tie him up.  He is no longer the pet you sent he is a fine tuned sports horse and needs to handled like one.


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## Cortez (6 November 2012)

charlie76 said:



			I wouldn't turn him away either.  The horse you sent was a soft,  unfit horse,  he has come back to you fit and ready to do things.  At the pros yard he wouldn't have been fussed with,  he would have just been handled in a professional manner. You obviously sent him to that particular trainer as you want him to be your competition horse and that's what they have produced.  
Imo you need to carry on and crack on with him,  work him in th manner he has come accustomed to. Get him out and about and then see if he settles.  If he is weaving put a grill up,  if he is naughty to handle tie him up.  He is no longer the pet you sent he is a fine tuned sports horse and needs to handled like one.
		
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I agree with you 100%. A pet and a competition horse are often not the same thing.


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## jenz87 (6 November 2012)

Please PM me where he went It sounds just like a horse I know but cant say where publically!!!


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## Equilibrium Ireland (6 November 2012)

A fit and ready for battle 4 YO with 12 weeks from time of starting groundwork. Nah, that wasn't rushing it was it? 

To each his own I suppose. It's why I like mine to start at 3. Do the basics for about 6 weeks then off. Go again in the fall for a bit more progression and another break. Early part of they're 4 YO year you know what you have. Some can zip right on and never have an issue. Some are mentally or physically behind or both and need a different program. 

But I never go from doing nothing to now you're a competition horse, deal with it. It's always the funniest thing to me that people think you're a butcher if you start at 3 but yet think 4 is the magical age in which because they're physically ready the mental must be there. I've had people call to find out exactly how many weeks their 4yo needs because in 8 weeks time they have a clinic lined up and 2 weeks after that they have shows picked out. Nothing like giving them everything all at once. Oh but surely at 4 they're physically ready so no consideration for anything else. And you all think it's the age a horse is broken that means they'll stay physically and mentally sound for a long career. Not necessarily true. Some horses are washed up before their time because no one ever thought it might be pushing them mentally rather than physically. 

Terri


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## Meowy Catkin (6 November 2012)

I agree with you EI.


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## YasandCrystal (6 November 2012)

Faracat said:



			I agree with you EI.
		
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me too !


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## Jesstickle (6 November 2012)

I'm sorry? if he weaves just put a grill up?  Seriously?


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## TigerTail (6 November 2012)

jesstickle said:



			I'm sorry? if he weaves just put a grill up?  Seriously?

 

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And ignore the fact he is clearly unhappy   - nice 

Sounds like the trainer has done a proper number on this horse. Id want him out to see him and Id want answers as to what the eff has happened. Did you see him being worked at the 'professionals' OP?

Im not sure you can turn him away in such a bad place, I think him living out might help with some of the vices and stress he has clearly been put under. Id also be starting him on bachs remedies and adding chamomile flowers to his tea - but thats just me - id prefer a horse happy in himself than one shut in a cage but not annoying people with a vice such as weaving/biting etc.


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## patch1234 (6 November 2012)

Thank you for all the comments.

Yes I did want a fit competition horse but I also wanted him to be happy and obviously something went wrong.

Could the problem be me?  Thats a difficult one to answer.  I am not a novice im a stage 3 BHS and have worked in racing, hunting and competition yards with the same type of horse which mine now is, the difference is this one is mine and i dont want him unhappy.

He did go off as a pet and came back a competition horse but why on earth cant he be both, a happy competition horse or am i missing something??

My yard is very very relaxed so maybe this is now a problem? he used to love it and was happy as Larry. I own my own yard so no liveries ect.

My biggest dilema now is should he go back into work or turn away (will come in at night).

I want the best for him


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## TigerTail (6 November 2012)

patch1234 said:



			Thank you for all the comments.

Yes I did want a fit competition horse but I also wanted him to be happy and obviously something went wrong.

Could the problem be me?  Thats a difficult one to answer.  I am not a novice im a stage 3 BHS and have worked in racing, hunting and competition yards with the same type of horse which mine now is, the difference is this one is mine and i dont want him unhappy.

He did go off as a pet and came back a competition horse but why on earth cant he be both, a happy competition horse or am i missing something??

My yard is very very relaxed so maybe this is now a problem? he used to love it and was happy as Larry. I own my own yard so no liveries ect.

My biggest dilema now is should he go back into work or turn away (will come in at night).

I want the best for him
		
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You're not missing anything - something has gone badly badly wrong. Id be getting an IHRA out. A competition horse has no need to be any difference to any other horse at grass roots and as a 4 yr old just brought into work he is NOT a 'competition horse' in the sense it is being used on here.


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## Amymay (6 November 2012)

patch1234 said:



			He did go off as a pet and came back a competition horse but why on earth cant he be both, a happy competition horse or am i missing something??
		
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He hasn't come back as a competition horse - he's come back as a newly broken in youngster.

My own view is turn him away and pick him up in the spring.  Or if you're determined to keep him in work, hunt him.

Lots of posts on here reading far too much in to his behaviour.


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## patch1234 (6 November 2012)

When I say competition horse I mean ability to eventually compete and has talent to do so if all goes to plan.

I have had lots of people ask for trainers name.  Please understand I have absolutely no problem with my trainers riding ability or methods of training that i saw under saddle, I saw my horse ridden weekly and the improvements were fantastic.  My trainer is sympathetic and kind but firm when needed, he is a competion rider so is of the mind the horse has to do his job, but not to beat it into submission.

The problems are on the ground and stable management when he returned home.

Of course I have no idea what was happening when I wasnt there but I cant imagine he was cruel in any way.

I have realised one thing in that professional competition riders are different to the every day casual rider and may be that is something I have to understand.


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## kirstykate (6 November 2012)

The Pro has not done a proper job on this horse at all they have just produced a competition horse.


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## Amymay (6 November 2012)

kirstykate said:



			The Pro has not done a proper job on this horse at all they have just produced a competition horse.
		
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Well, there are some ridiculous things posted on HHO all the time, but this may take the prize.............

Or certainly the prize for this week.


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## kirstykate (6 November 2012)

patch1234 said:



			When I say competition horse I mean ability to eventually compete and has talent to do so if all goes to plan.

I have had lots of people ask for trainers name.  Please understand I have absolutely no problem with my trainers riding ability or methods of training that i saw under saddle, I saw my horse ridden weekly and the improvements were fantastic.  My trainer is sympathetic and kind but firm when needed, he is a competion rider so is of the mind the horse has to do his job, but not to beat it into submission.

The problems are on the ground and stable management when he returned home.

Of course I have no idea what was happening when I wasnt there but I cant imagine he was cruel in any way.

I have realised one thing in that professional competition riders are different to the every day casual rider and may be that is something I have to understand.
		
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I would say your boy thrives on the busy yards, many a competition horse can not cope with the quieter life.  I would keep him in work and maybe be a little more workman like around him on the ground, and dont be afraid to tell him off.  He is at that age where he will be pushing the boundaries.  He could also be rather confused by the whole thing.


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## kirstykate (6 November 2012)

amymay said:



			Well, there are some ridiculous things posted on HHO all the time, but this may take the prize.............

Or certainly the prize for this week.
		
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There is a huge difference between a Badminton horse and you local plugs


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## Amymay (6 November 2012)

kirstykate said:



			There is a huge difference between a Badminton horse and you local plugs
		
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Competition horses aren't made in 12 weeks.  And what relevance does a Badminton horses vs your local 'plod' have to this thread?


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## kirstykate (6 November 2012)

amymay said:



			Competition horses aren't made in 12 weeks.  And what relevance does a Badminton horses vs your local 'plod' have to this thread?
		
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Well it wont be far off it, why else do we have 4 yr old classes, it has a relevance in that your local plug is far easier to look after than you top class horses.


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## Amymay (6 November 2012)

kirstykate said:



			Well it wont be far off it, why else do we have 4 yr old classes, it has a relevance in that your local plug is far easier to look after than you top class horses.
		
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4 year old classes are for potential, and there's no difference (generally speaking) in looking after your top class horse and your local little plod.  

And before you ask me - yes, I do have the experience to say that.

Anyway we digress.  OP has a newly broken in horse and needs to know best how to manage him.

Some good advice on this thread - so hopefully it will help.


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## kirstykate (6 November 2012)

amymay said:



			4 year old classes are for potential, and there's no difference (generally speaking) in looking after your top class horse and your local little plod.  

And before you ask me - yes, I do have the experience to say that.

Anyway we digress.  OP has a newly broken in horse and needs to know best how to manage him.

Some good advice on this thread - so hopefully it will help.
		
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Indeed, but these top horses thrive on work and a busy environment thats what makes them special


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## AshTay (6 November 2012)

I think the most sensible thing would be to go back to the trainer and ask him for his opinion on what has happened and what to do. But feel free to ask him outright whether he thinks that 12 weeks of no turnout and being ridden everyday (albeit ridden well and sympathetically) might have been a little too much for him, and if so, what steps should be taken next.


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## Wheels (6 November 2012)

OP I feel for you so much. It must be heartbreaking for you. 

I personally would never turn away a horse that was not going well as although I agree he probably was worked too much too soon I think just turning him away now would be counter productive and he may be exactly the same as he is now when you start him again. 

I would concentrate on groundwork exercises more to try and help to rebuild your bond, maybe go for a few hacks but all low key and no pressure. 

I would also be getting the usual checks done + maybe checking for or treating for ulcers as all if this behaviour could be pain related.


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## Amymay (6 November 2012)

kirstykate said:



			Indeed, but these top horses thrive on work and a busy environment thats what makes them special

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Sometimes, true - but not always

And we're not discussing a top horse here, merely a newly broken in youngster (don't I sound like a broken record??)


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## Jesstickle (6 November 2012)

amymay said:



			Sometimes, true - but not always

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Beat me to it!

I only know about race horses but we had some that were sharp and some that were absolute dopes. Why should every fit 'competition' horse be some kind of fruit loop on the ground?!

O and probably quite relevantly of all the ones that I knew that went off to be 'normal' horses only one really wouldn't settle as a common plod given time to adjust. He went to the racing school. Most of them were quite happy pootling about...


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## Jools1234 (6 November 2012)

amymay said:



			Sometimes, true - but not always

And we're not discussing a top horse here, merely a newly broken in youngster (don't I sound like a broken record??)
		
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you do but an accurate one.

to my thinking if these 'competition horses' that have never been to a copmetition are more special than the 'plugs' then they would need more sympathetic 'breaking' (i prefer backing horses to breaking them myself) rather than less.

OP i agree with a previous poster if you are happy with the trainer and their methods then speak to them and ask for sme advice


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## Goldenstar (6 November 2012)

In my view it really sounds like a job for a good equine vet.
I would also be having the trainer round to see what's going on.
If I bought a youngster home from such a yard it would have home one day in work the next I would be leading out from another horse in walk a bit of lunging and gentle work in the school and generally getting the horse to wind down over say six weeks before a break.
The handling issues and the weaving would worry me far more than the horse being an idiot on the lunge that's why I would be getting the vet pronto if the horse where mine.


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## Goldenstar (6 November 2012)

My trainer has a saying with talent comes trouble something's wrong here OP needs to get to the bottom of it ASAP.


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## Amymay (6 November 2012)

Goldenstar said:



			My trainer has a saying with talent comes trouble something's wrong here OP needs to get to the bottom of it ASAP.
		
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Maybe the horse is just uber talented then


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## kirstykate (6 November 2012)

And we're not discussing a top horse here, merely a newly broken in youngster (don't I sound like a broken record??)[/QUOTE]

No but it has the potential, nearly every top class horse has a quirk


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## Christsam (6 November 2012)

It is the stable behaviour that is the most worrying.  My rising 4 gelding is not being fully broken until the spring but as he is 4 in the middle of winter he has done groundwork this year and been lightly backed but is not physically capable of doing a lot more.  And he can be an idiot.  He is fine to handle and fine in stable but can be a proper handful in the school.  Although this is not all the time and he sometimes gets excited and throws in a few squeals and bucks for good measure and generally does not concentrate for long periods of time.  That is being a young, immature horse.  The OP's horse obviously has a major problem somewhere as it is the handling and stable where there is a problem.  The horse bashing its head on the stable wall, for instance, is not normal behaviour.  Weaving/cribbing, whilst obviously not wanted, is not the main problem.  OP needs to speak to the trainer to see what he was like on the ground there and go form there.  It could be a vet is needed to make sure that the horse has not been injured and is in pain and that is the cause of the behaviour.

As for the plug and competition horse argument.  Yes its true that "competition" horses are normally more difficult than "plugs" but, at the end of the day, the OP says she wanted a competition horse and sent him off to a good yard so must have thought herself able to handle a competition horse.  However, this horses behaviour is not normal.  Please OP get some advice from the trainer and/or vet and keep us updated


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## Amymay (6 November 2012)

kirstykate said:



			And we're not discussing a top horse here, merely a newly broken in youngster (don't I sound like a broken record??)
		
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No but it has the potential, nearly every top class horse has a quirk[/QUOTE]

Every horse has potential.  And you're absolutely right many top class horses have a quirk.

But as I've said (not sure how many times now) this is not a competition horse it's a newly broken in horse - with a future yet to be determined.


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## Amymay (6 November 2012)

Sam_1985 said:



			As for the plug and competition horse argument.  Yes its true that "competition" horses are normally more difficult than "plugs"
		
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Sorry, that is simply not true.


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## Christsam (6 November 2012)

amymay said:



			Sorry, that is simply not true.
		
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okay maybe not more difficult as such but you should get the gist of it from what I said.  in fact ponies can be more difficult cos theyre damn bull headed sometimes.  Uhh, quirky is probably the word i should have used.


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## kirstykate (6 November 2012)

amymay said:



			No but it has the potential, nearly every top class horse has a quirk

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Every horse has potential.  And you're absolutely right many top class horses have a quirk.

But as I've said (not sure how many times now) this is not a competition horse it's a newly broken in horse - with a future yet to be determined.[/QUOTE]

And as I have said  He has huge potential, we so we have been told, weather he is competing or not he has been produced as one, there is a difference in the way its done.  If the trainer did not think the horse had the brains to do it, he would have done it differently


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## Amymay (6 November 2012)

kirstykate said:



			weather he is competing or not he has been produced as one,
		
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No, he's just been broken in.  Production takes months and years, not weeks.


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## Christsam (6 November 2012)

amymay said:



			No, he's just been broken in.  Production takes months and years, not weeks.
		
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hmm, to be honest I would say that he has done more than just be broken in and that is where there is a problem.  They have done the breaking and started to produce a competition horse but maybe it is too much for him at the moment.


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## crabbymare (6 November 2012)

I would talk to the trainer and ask if the horse was showing the behaviour there to the same extent. competition horses are normally sharper but because of them needing to stand on a lorry at shows or stand around in a collecting ring they are normally pretty well mannered when being handled. I would think the horse either has something like ulcers coming or is missing the bustle of a busier yard and seeing things going on a lot more.


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## kirstykate (6 November 2012)

amymay said:



			No, he's just been broken in.  Production takes months and years, not weeks.
		
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6 weeks to break a horse, walk trot canter on both reins.  After 12 weeks I would be expecting changes and able to pop a small course.


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## Amymay (6 November 2012)

kirstykate said:



			6 weeks to break a horse, walk trot canter on both reins.  After 12 weeks I would be expecting changes and able to pop a small course.
		
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Yep, that sounds about right, apart from the changes - but appreciate that some things are introduced (if at all) at different times.

But is that production, or just bringing the horse on very generally?  Competition aimed or not, I think most of us would accept that after 12 weeks we would expect a level of competency from the horse.


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## Aces_High (6 November 2012)

Patch - if he was mine.... (had a similar problem with my 4yr old recently!).  I don't know anything about the feed you are feeding but I would cut it out if possible - mine is on Baileys High Fibre Cubes, adlib hay and that is it.  I would try him over the next 10days and just get him lunging, riding in the school and maybe a bit of hacking if he enjoys it and then sling him out for a while.  You mentioned that he's kept at home - if he was in an American Barn, this can make them rather possessive over their feed.  My big horse is a THUG to feed - he's been like that since he was a 2 year old and at 21 he won't be changing.  If he doesn't settle into a little bit of work then I would throw him out.  I think all of this - he will remember that he had a holiday having been going badly is a load of rubbish.  He is a horse and they do not think or have foresight like humans.  My 4 year old had been up for about 5 months - broken and ridden away as a 3 year old and then had a good 5 months in work this year.  She is very talented and finds everything super easy.  She got to the stage where I got on her and picked up the contact and she started going backwards.  I battled for a week and she's now thrown out in the paddock.  She hasn't won the battle as she won't think when I next get on her that if she goes backwards she will have a holiday.  That is foresight which as I said before horses don't have - if they did have foresight or perception they wouldn't jump out infront of cars etc! With his stable manners - I always tie horses up.  No matter what animal it is, I go in the box and it's tied up. I would never dress a horse over or muck out untied - too many swing around to bite if you get a tickly bit.  I have been educated in an old fashioned racing way in that sense but I think it's a very good grounding.  Again, if he's naughty to lead out - bridle on.  I would lunge him again with the rein over his head and through the bit ring or directly from the bit with a coupling.  I just think you have to be firm and fair - he's a big strong horse after all.  Also as others have said, call up the trainer and see what he says/suggests.  He might come and sit on him for you as well.  Good Luck and it would be good to hear your progress.


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## AmiRobertson (6 November 2012)

Poor horse and poor you! 

I would definitely get an MOT on him and get the vet out just so you can rule out any physical problems before addressing the behaviour.

I also agree with amymay he is just a baby who has suddenly had a lot asked of him and had to deal with a lot of change in a short period of time. Yes he might thrive on a busier yard but I very much agree with spending 6 weeks backing and then turning away. 
My 4yo was backed last year then turned away for about 6 months. Now we focus on hacking and getting balance in walk and trot while working long and low. We haven't even cantered yet as she had some problems with her back and is quite unconfident bending to the left. I take her in the school with a plan laid out of what we will do that should take 20mins no more and we finish when she has completed that and then she gets lots of praise, thats only twice a week then hacking three times as that is what will get her fit. Also a lot of groundwork and grooming and she gets 10hours turnout. We have many years ahead of each other so there is no way I would rush her yet and a number of people go on about how much potential she has and I should be doing this and that with her but I have no desire to fry her brain I want her to continue with her education willing and eager to please. 
I would work on the groundwork and get your bond again and him trusting you (which obviously won't happen overnight). Then have a couple of weeks short positive quiet schooling and hacking and then turn away until spring. Especially if he is as talented as you have said you want him to enjoy his work and have confidence in you.

Remember as well that most of the top competition horses are in their teens it takes years to produce a horse of this level not 12 weeks.


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## Twinkley Lights (6 November 2012)

JanetGeorge said:



			There may be a bit of that involved.  He may have settled into a new routine that kept him busy - and tired.  He may be missing the work and testing the boundaries.  But it seems rather more than that.  I suspect he may have developed ulcers due to the strict routine, lack of turnout, and perhaps rather harsh discipline.  But I still think the trainer should be the first port of call.  He KNOWS the horse - none of us (except the ower of course) do.  

And even if his brain IS fried, I don't think immediate turning away is the way to go.  He will spend the winter remembering HOW he earned a holiday!!  He'll remember his last behaviours - and they're bad.  He needs to be brought back into hand - kindly but firmly - and THEN be let-up forf a short while!
		
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This makes so much sense to me.  I do suspect it was the root of my lads rearing issues.  Maybe he was broken then too much too soon and then turned away for long time because he was a handful.  In any case he crafted his evasion of choice and became very good at it.  

I'd risk so far as to say that he is now' institutionalised' and by that I mean that he is more comfortable in a busy yard with structure even if that limits turnout hours than on a small home yard.  He has been reschooled and things are looking good but as one of 60 odd horses on the pros yard he is now rather funny about rugging ears back etc which was never an issue before.

It is a very different life for them on a pro yard and must require a period of readjustment and patience but instinctively I do feel Janet is right re: not turning away right now.

All the best op I do hope this works out for you.


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## Equestrianforever28 (6 November 2012)

jesstickle said:



			I'm sorry? if he weaves just put a grill up?  Seriously?

 

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that doesn't always work i know a  horse who weaves inside the box because she use to be in 24/7 no turn out they had weave grills in but it  didn't work it

if you don't believe me i  can get a video when shes doing it.


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## Gingerwitch (6 November 2012)

My little lad - ex racer - sort of weaves if you know what i mean - but he goes up and down or leans out an bites his teeth at you - and i do think horses copy as the big lad learnt to do this


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## thehorsephotographer (6 November 2012)

To my mind a lot of people here are making the assumption that the 12 weeks was all hard intensive work, work, work - not necessarily the case. It may equally have been very steady gentle introduction of different things slowly hence the need for 12 weeks.

I think the first port of call has to be as Janet George says get the trainer over to see him now and the behaviours he is exhibiting at ascertain what he/she suggests.

I'm not going to make any other suggestions as to do so without seeing the horse I think could be like looking for a needle in a haystack or trying to put the pieces of a jigsaw together whilst working blindfolded - all the pieces are there but I can't see where they go.

What I would say to you however is you are clearly very experienced and know your own horse. You visited it regularly whilst it was in training and didn't pick up on anything untoward so given your instincts now I don't think there was anything sinister going on because I think you have the nounce to have picked up in that, not just with your horse but with the others there too if there was. So don't beat yourself up over this. You have simply invested in what you believed was the best for a secure and productive future for him.

Get the trainer to your place to see him and take it from there. I font believe simply turning him away for winter is the answer in this case. 

Oh and unless I witnessed all the horses weaving there I would not read anything into the fact that the boxes were fitted with anti weave grills either.


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## JanetGeorge (6 November 2012)

thehorsephotographer said:



			Oh and unless I witnessed all the horses weaving there I would not read anything into the fact that the boxes were fitted with anti weave grills either.
		
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I would agree.  If I was building my yard again from scratch (and a slightly better budget than I had at the time) I would fit ALL boxes with anti-weave grills.  Not to stop weaving, but to stop the visiting nut jobs who try to jump the stable door without stopping them putting their heads out for a look around!

As it is we have half-a-dozen boxes with top grill brackets and - if in doubt about a new arrival's brain - we put a top grill on until we've had a chance to observe their behaviour - and they've had a chance to settle in!


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## patch1234 (6 November 2012)

Vet says does not think ulcers as knows yard well and fed correctly and hay 3 x daily.

Trainer says he is now a fit competiton horse who needs the stimulation he was getting at the yard and suggests boxing him up for riding then taken home opposed to staying there as im close by.

His progression was a lot more than average horse due to his ability.  

Backed and hacking within 2 weeks no probs what so ever, jumping 4 weeks both with and without rider he loved it.

Cross country fences no problems, loved it.

Jumping 4 ft spreads very little effort really enjoyed it easily could jump higher.

Flying changes no problem almost taught himself lateral work no issues he just got it straight away.

This really is a talanted horse and was never beaten or pushed under saddle.


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## Goldenstar (6 November 2012)

In my personal experiance horses having turn out ,hay all the time and correct feeding looking like a million dollars can still have ulcers , if I remember it rightly you say your horse is weaving, ulcer symptom , naughty being rugged up ,ulcer symptom I seen that one with my own eyes and being difficult to groom ulcer symptom .
Your horse had work and no turn out how a vet can say its not going to be ulcers I don't understand based on the competion horses I have dealt with.
Being talented should not make a previously pleasant to handle youngster dangerous to work on with they may get a bit sharper as they get fit but their characters stay basically the same .


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## thehorsephotographer (6 November 2012)

I would try what the trainer suggests at this point unless you want to be the one riding him? 

If he were mine I'd work with the trainer to get him to a point where he's (the horse) happy and working as well at home - whether this be initially you take him there to be ridden and then start riding him there first before riding him at home or whether you try a combination of both. I would try to get the trainer to your yard to assess him there if there is no improvement.


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## Wheels (6 November 2012)

Holy moly patch is that what your 4 yr old has done in 12 weeks? No wonder he's gone nuts. Talent or not that is way way too much


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## StarlightMagic (6 November 2012)

Jeeeez thats a hell of a lot to expect from a newly broken 4 year old! Pushed too much, too soon I think


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## patch1234 (6 November 2012)

If he doesnt improve within next couple of weeks with all the changes i am making i will definately look into the ulcer concerns.

Have also spoken to other competion yard owners and they all agree that my horse quite possibly needs the work now and not the rest over winter.

Spoke to BHS and they said changes in behaviour when coming back from competition backing yards is quite common especially if horse returns fit and ready to go.  They also said there are two options either turn away or work but wouldnt give a decisive answer.

It is a difficult situation as i dont want to make the wrong decision.


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## Equilibrium Ireland (6 November 2012)

First off all high level competition horses do not have quirks. I schooled for a very well known SJ rider in the States. He used to let me get on his 2 GP/World Cup horses at the time. They were anything but quirky. Dream rides. It was nice considering I was getting on mostly youngsters and also got to school the very bratty 12.2. As a matter of fact the pony was more difficult than the recent 150k GP winner. I've also ridden Breeders Cup winners, Kentucky Derby winners, and lots of Group/graded winners. You know what makes them all really good beyond talent? The MIND. And to an extent the people that understand them. I've been on some fantastically talented horses over the years that never put their best foot forward when it came time let the talent shine. Also been on some less naturally talented horses that tried harder and ended up being good horses. So really I just hate the ole "good horses are all quirky" crap. Some can be just as some completely useless horses can be quirky. 

I'd like for you Kristykate to get some of the ones we get in and see what you can do in 12 weeks. Totally unhandled. As in can't even walk with a person and had a head collar on for the first time while in a cattle crush on the way into the trailer. To be fair that guy is walk, trot, canter, and hacks through the field. He's not doing flying changes yet and I don't actually ask him. 12 weeks yesterday. He goes out daily in company. He stands behind a single chain, loves mud, and loves a good sleep in a big straw bed. He's about to go home on a break like the other 3 from the same owner have. No problems at home. 

It boggels my mind how people can say a horse should be doing this by such and such a week. They're all individuals. Some take more time to build the correct muscles, some less. Mentally some internalize more than others. Some not at all. Just all depends and you can't know any of that until the horse is in your barn and you're working with them. Maybe I may be on the cautious side, but considering I want sound older horses, as do most, I don't ask everything all at once. I try to be considerate. I also do not like breaking a horse and them not having turnout. Young horses being asked to use muscles they never have before and them stood in all day. I don't leave my jumping mare in 24/7. In the summer she competes from the field. Just because they can tolerate being in doesn't mean it's right. 

Terri


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## Shysmum (6 November 2012)

hello OP,

This might sound a bit off the wall, but as an animal aromatherapist, I wanted to suggest some essential oils/ remedies that you could try. Whatever has happened to your horse, he needs to be re-balanced and to get stability back.

Firstly, RESCUE REMEDY NIGHT (Bach - from boots). Plus WALNUT (this is for change and unsettled behaviour) - add five drops of this to a very small amount of chaff/feed as many times a day as you can.  You can also get a RR spray that you could spray directly into the mouth, but this may be tricky.

There are several essential oils that jump out - these need to be diluted to 3% with olive oil for oral use (if the animal needs that oil, it may lick it from your hand). Or he may just sniff it from the bottle. Never force an oil on a horse.

ROSE - trauma, panic, past abuse, deeply calming, letting go
ROMAN CHAMOMILE - very calming and soothing.

and a fab combination is NUTMEG + VETIVER - this is a magic combination that seems to really bring a horse back down to earth and "ground them". 

And good old LAVENDER is excellent too. 

I hope this has given you some ideas, but whatever you do, get started on the Rescue remedy and walnut asap. It does really work.


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## patch1234 (6 November 2012)

I know it all seems too much and i would wholeheartedly agree if it was someone elses horse.  But i watched alot of this and he didnt seem stressed at all and i know the trainer didnt force a thing out of him.

I think i will have to go with my gut feelings on this one and take a bit of advice from both sides of the discussion.


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## thehorsephotographer (6 November 2012)

My guts have never let me down when it comes to my horses. I also think reading your well balanced and thought out replies that you pretty much have a handle on this. Going forward you will choose the best path for him and he will be fine I'm sure.


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## StarlightMagic (6 November 2012)

Im sure my youngster would work without outwardly appearing stressed to whatever level he was pushed, however I am also sure he'd shut down mentally as it'd be far too much!


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## Gingerwitch (6 November 2012)

patch1234 - I am quite shocked at the progress your horse made - especially on the jumping side.  To go from backing to jumping in 4 weeks - too much - way to much.  I really dont care what the professional says - if the horse was as talented as this why did he continue to push - horse was booked in for 6 weeks - he did everything planed and more but still did not get to come home - that was unfair.  Or was it just easy money for the pro ?.

He just does not sound like he has had anytime to cement the learning process and your now finding out all the bits of his education that have been missed - i would be very angry - and i would be pretty fed up with the Vet too - when they have stopped slapping each other on the back and showing there nipples at each other -maybe the vet will investigate rather than make the assumption that the horse is fed 3 times a day by my old mate and therefore he cant have a problem.

I suggest you change your vet, and your pro -


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## Equilibrium Ireland (6 November 2012)

If I were you then I think you should trust you're trainer. May not be what I would do but that doesn't mean squat. I'm saying this because it's already the way the horse has been done. So you can see how it pans out. He's already been in that program. But really the signs your horse is giving you is that of a horse who is frustrated and probably some pain. A course of gastrogard isn't going to break the bank nor will it hurt him. Could the frustration be from not being in the program. Maybe. Could it be from too much too soon. Maybe. I'm afraid no definitive answers can be given over an Internet which is why best to stick with what your trainer says. Sorry I wasn't more helpful to you. 

Terri


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## redriverrock (6 November 2012)

I havent read every reply but have read enough I think to have an opinion...poor, poor horse. Sorry but imo the treatment of this horse has obviously caused serious mental and probably physical issues that would be considered cruel if he wasnt such an amazingly talented horse with alot of peoples ego's riding on his back.
You clearly think alot of this horse but seem reluctant/blind to the fact that talented or not this horse is clearly not ready for the questions being asked of it.


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## Jools1234 (6 November 2012)

my little mare was backed by a friend who gets given very 'quirky' stuff and so far has always managed to produce non 'quirky' competition horses or ponies by the time they go to someone else, sometimes it takes yrs.

but my little mare must be a super talented competition horse in the making cos within three wks of being backed she was walking, trotting and cantering in the school, open fields and hacks-alone and in company.

my friend contacted me and asked what else i wanted her to be doing as she was supposed to be working on her for 6wks-the answer turn her away she has done everything i would want a 4yr old to do. 

the point to this is you dont just keep pushing the babies or they will break mentally or physically

for those of you that keep saying he is a competition horse so bad behaviour is to be expected, what came first the bad behaviour or the pushing them too hard too fast? chicken or the egg?

for me my friend above proves competition horses do not have to be 'quirky', and all hers compete from the field


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## Vickijay (6 November 2012)

Equilibrium Ireland said:



			First off all high level competition horses do not have quirks. I schooled for a very well known SJ rider in the States. He used to let me get on his 2 GP/World Cup horses at the time. They were anything but quirky. Dream rides. It was nice considering I was getting on mostly youngsters and also got to school the very bratty 12.2. As a matter of fact the pony was more difficult than the recent 150k GP winner. I've also ridden Breeders Cup winners, Kentucky Derby winners, and lots of Group/graded winners. You know what makes them all really good beyond talent? The MIND. And to an extent the people that understand them. I've been on some fantastically talented horses over the years that never put their best foot forward when it came time let the talent shine. Also been on some less naturally talented horses that tried harder and ended up being good horses. So really I just hate the ole "good horses are all quirky" crap. Some can be just as some completely useless horses can be quirky. 

It boggels my mind how people can say a horse should be doing this by such and such a week. They're all individuals. Some take more time to build the correct muscles, some less. Mentally some internalize more than others. Some not at all. Just all depends and you can't know any of that until the horse is in your barn and you're working with them. Maybe I may be on the cautious side, but considering I want sound older horses, as do most, I don't ask everything all at once. I try to be considerate. I also do not like breaking a horse and them not having turnout. Young horses being asked to use muscles they never have before and them stood in all day. I don't leave my jumping mare in 24/7. In the summer she competes from the field. Just because they can tolerate being in doesn't mean it's right. 

Terri
		
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This 

If he were mine Id do a few more weeks with him so he ends on a sweet note and then give him a holiday


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## patch1234 (6 November 2012)

Thank you very much for all the replies and comments, what clearly shines through is that all of you want the best for my horse and that is lovely to hear, even if some of your views dont quite match mine.

Im afraid whats done is done and hindsight is a wonderful thing so its a case of upwards and onwards.

After speaking to my trainer, vet and taking advice from people on this forum this is my plan of action.

1.  Be more workman like with him when I handle him as he is not the pet he once was but also give him a pat and cuddle when HE wants it opposed to when I may want it.

2.  Analyze feed even though im sure ive already got that right but re check it.

3. Continue with ad lib hay through the night and add some toys to stable and maybe a stable mirror.

4. Turn out as usual but bring in a little earlier and do some ground work which is more playful than taxing to keep the mind occupied.

5.  Box him up to trainer twice a week as he is a far better rider than me and he is ultimately going to compete, and see how this goes, if it doesnt seem successful then turn away completely.

6.  Get vet to check for ulcers, no good second ghessing this issue, rather illiminate problem.

7.  Be very careful what I wish for in the future as I might just get it!!!!


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## Jesstickle (6 November 2012)

My little mare is very biddable. I'm sure she would jump a four foot spread if I asked. Or at least she would give it her very best shot as she is a nice little thing. When I backed her at Christmas last year I walked trotted and cantered in the first three rides. It isn't because she is super talented that she managed this, just because she is willing  Because she was willing I had to be very strict with myself not to ask too much too early as when they seem confident and capable I think that's very easy to do. 

Anyway, sounds like you have a plan so good luck


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## FfionWinnie (6 November 2012)

Petting him when he wants it is not workman like...


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## Gingerwitch (6 November 2012)

Patch1234 - i disagree on two points but its none of my buisness:-

1. for how much a course of gastroguard costs just put him on it - it wont hurt him if he doesnt need it - but you dont want to send him for a scan.

2. Boxing him back to this so called proffessional twice a week - sorry i just cannot get my head round why,when the clear message appears to be that 95% of folk think that this person has pushed him too hard and too fast would you want to subject your horse going back there.

Lets just hope he boxes ok after a week of going back there.


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## Meowy Catkin (6 November 2012)

A horse should have the same personality before and after backing.


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## Shysmum (6 November 2012)

*OMG YOU ARE SENDING HIM BACK *

Even just for a few days a week - this horse has been traumatised by something that went on there - isn't that obvious ?? 

Good God, that poor,poor horse.   GIVE HIM A BREAK - it's not all about MONEY and BADMINTON !!!!!!!

In fact I am so shocked, I am starting to think this may be troll post ?


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## Gingerwitch (6 November 2012)

Shysmum.... with you all the way


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## Shysmum (6 November 2012)

It is a troll isn't it - a good one, I'll give them that !!!


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## Holding (6 November 2012)

I've been reading this post with interest because I have a 3 year old would-be-competition-horse being backed by a pro at the moment, and I know first hand how difficult it is to second guess somebody's techniques (whether or not you personally agree with them) when they are a fabulous rider with top class horses. I spend half my time worrying that mine is being pushed too hard, that I wouldn't use this or that gadget that the trainer is using, that he isn't getting enough turnout, etc, etc. And mine has gone from being a big, soft cuddly baby to being a bit grumpy and standoffish in the stable. So I totally sympathize with you, OP. FWIW I think you are doing exactly the right thing in following the advice given by your trainer and vet, who do actually know your horse after all. Hopefully you will see improvements - if not you may need to rethink, but it sounds sensible as a first port of call. 

Oh, and a charcoal supplement like Gastro-Kalm might be a good idea as a preventative measure.


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## patch1234 (6 November 2012)

Shysmum - Im definately not a troll and feel quite offended by that asumption.

The trainer is an excellent rider as i said before, the horse will not be staying there he will only be there for about an hour with me present then he will come home.

Ive never said the riding or training was wrong it was the way he behaved when he came home that worries me.  He is not afraid of the trainer infact he snuggles him alot so i cannot see why it is a mistake to have him ridden by him.

I think perhaps this is being distorted a bit which is a great pity as i have recieved some excellent advice and comments on this forum and if im seen as a troll I wont bother again.


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## Twinkley Lights (6 November 2012)

patch1234 said:



			My 4 year old was sent away to be backed and schooled with a very professional rider.  His backing was fantastic and he has turned into an up and coming eventer with huge potential.

Before he went away he was mild mannered, virtually unspookable, kind and willing.  He was good in the stable and easily rugged, booted ect.

Since coming home he weaves in the stable quite violently at feed time, he smashes his head on any one trying to sort out his rugs, he will not stand still to be groomed, he is bolshy in the stable and outside and tonight he tried to bite both myself and his regular groom.  

He was kept in nearly 24/7 at the backing yard (i just found this out) but ridden every day.  He was at the yard 12 weeks due to being so impressive with his training but I felt he should come home for a break.

I tried to lunge him and he went beserk, but did eventually calm down but he is becoming more impossible as the days go on.

I turn him out 8am - 5pm with a friend he comes in at night as fields very wet.  He is fed adlib hay and a high fibre feed from chestnut horse feeds for horses at rest, he does get a small amount of speedi beet added, this is morning and night.

Please can any one advice as I am an experienced horse owner but this personality change is the most dramatic i have seen.
		
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Seems more like a normal worried person asking for advice than a troll  I don't see it myself as it's not that extreme but then I like a more welcoming forum


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## patch1234 (6 November 2012)

Im very offended with the troll comments if you read previous comments some very knowledgeable people have advised i continue with trainer, so this is what i will do.

WHAT A PITY YOU HAVE RUINED THIS THREAD.


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## Shysmum (6 November 2012)

*The trainer may be an "excellent rider" but he has knackered up your horse !!!!! *And you are sending that poor horse back, against every bit of evidence. I loathe posts like this - why bother posting if you are going to send the horse back anyway ?

THAT is why I believe you are a troll. This is your first posting on here, and it's a very contraversial one.


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## Twinkley Lights (6 November 2012)

patch1234 said:



			Shysmum - Im definately not a troll and feel quite offended by that asumption.

The trainer is an excellent rider as i said before, the horse will not be staying there he will only be there for about an hour with me present then he will come home.

Ive never said the riding or training was wrong it was the way he behaved when he came home that worries me.  He is not afraid of the trainer infact he snuggles him alot so i cannot see why it is a mistake to have him ridden by him.

I think perhaps this is being distorted a bit which is a great pity as i have recieved some excellent advice and comments on this forum and if im seen as a troll I wont bother again.
		
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Don't leave hun the advice is great most of the time.


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## patch1234 (6 November 2012)

Gingerwitch said:



			Shysmum.... with you all the way
		
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Im not a troll and im new on here. I was warned not to go on here but i didnt listen as I cant believe people can be so nasty because they dont agree with my opinions.


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## FfionWinnie (6 November 2012)

I don't think you are a troll but you have disregarded pretty much what everyone said ie turn him away. 

If you don't want to turn away then I would personally just hack him out. I think twice weekly lessons is too much for any 4yr old.


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## patch1234 (6 November 2012)

shysmum said:



*The trainer may be an "excellent rider" but he has knackered up your horse !!!!! *And you are sending that poor horse back, against every bit of evidence. I loathe posts like this - why bother posting if you are going to send the horse back anyway ?

THAT is why I believe you are a troll. This is your first posting on here, and it's a very contraversial one.
		
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He is NOT going back to stay there, and if i feel the actual place is stressing him he wont ever go back but i do not believe that to be the case there are over 20 horses in training there, sent there by professional dressage riders and showjumpers who are at the very very top of their game.  He is not cruel and perhaps i shouldnt have come on this forum as there are some nasty sods on here.


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## Twinkley Lights (6 November 2012)

shysmum said:



*The trainer may be an "excellent rider" but he has knackered up your horse !!!!! *And you are sending that poor horse back, against every bit of advice given. I loathe posts like this - why bother posting if you are going to send the horse back anyway ?

THAT is why I believe you are a troll. This is your first posting on here, and it's a very contraversial one.
		
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It's not that controversial actually the op has weighed up advice and tried to balance her options.  Unless there is a new rule that posters must only subscribe to a single view that I've missed 

NB: the why bother posting stuff, leave the site etc is equally irksome.


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## Meowy Catkin (6 November 2012)

The fundamental thing that seems to be forgotten with horses is that they are prey animals (yes - this is relevant  ).

There was some very interesting research done with Police horses during their training and while they worked. It was thought that the horses were being desensitized to the crowds/noise/guns etc... but they found when they put heart rate monitors on the horses, that the horses were still just as stressed (raised heart rate - very high) it was just that they showed no outward signs of stress IE they were willing to calmly walk towards the football hooligans even though they were stressed out of their minds.

I think that your horse could have been very stressed at the trainers yard, he just didn't show it until he came home.

We are very bad at reading animals, partly because they fool us because of their survival instincts. How many of you have taken a lame cat/dog to the Vets only for it to be sound there? Then it goes lame again once home. I've seen this numerous times and it's because the animal doesn't want to show weakness in an alien environment.

Who else sees a direct comparison between weaving horses kept stabled 24/7 (except for exercise) and orphans weaving in their cots in those terrible Russian (probably happens in other countries too) orphanages?

I don't think that I'm being OTT, it's a stress-release behaviour and the stress is caused by confinement and lack of socialisation. 

There are many accepted practices that don't sit well with me. Maybe some will dismiss me as a fluffy, but my thoughts are based on animal behaviour.

If he was mine I would turn him away with a herd, but he's not mine, so it's not up to me.


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## Daytona (6 November 2012)

The poor animal has been pushed to its limit , it's telling you enough is enough.  

Continue like this and it will most likely break down and be left on the scrap heap as a "problem horse"  when in fact it's due to being forced to do work way ahead of his years.  

I have a 5 going on 6 year old , talented boy, he has super scope, loose schooled over 1.80 - not by me may I add..!! Before I got him as a 4 year old , I turned him away till 5 and he been slowly brought on this year only really last couple month attempting a small 80cm course.  He won't start to do bigger untill next year as a 6 year old.  But then I want a horse for life not one burnt out at 7 years old.

Please lay off this horse if you insist on not turning away why can't he just be lightly hacked over winter and brought on slowly next year.?


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## EstherYoung (6 November 2012)

What was he being fed when he was at the trainers? 3 x per day of competition feed and no turnout will turn any horse into a wild boy  You may just need for him to get it out of his system. A friend's horse came back similarly wired from a 'producer' and he came back to earth after a few weeks.

Mine has just come back from backing. The person I chose:
- Came highly recommended by people in my discipline
- Was very much on the same wavelength as me re the ethics of horse training and management, and we spent a long time talking beforehand to make sure we'd be happy working with each other
- Was prepared to work as much with me as with the pone to make sure I knew what he was learning
- Kept all lessons short and progression logical
- Adjusted her approach depending on how my horse learned each lesson 
- Warned me that he was a very bright lad and it would be very easy to overcook him

Mine has come back a well mannered, well adjusted youngster. I couldn't have wished for a better start for him. And me for that matter, as I've learned a lot too.


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## Gingerwitch (6 November 2012)

Well there is no way on gods earth i would allow a recently backed horse to be jumping 4ft - could go higher ! is this for real ? 

Some of the cruelest riders at at the top of the game - but its your horse and your money.


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## Daytona (6 November 2012)

110% agree with gingerwitch

I got a pro eventer and dressage rider to help me with my lad, as a 5 year old may I add , and both  this year have said the same, bags and bags of talent, the eventer think he would not be out of place in John Wit yard, they both said  lets take it slow slow with him, not rush him, let him mature and grow, mentally and physically .  As I said he has only just started small 80cm courses and he turned 5 in Feb this year

4ft fences is WAY over the score.


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## loobylu (6 November 2012)

I think, as a general point, that it's worth remembering that a professionally produced young horse WILL generally progress much more quickly than one made by a less experienced person. Simply because a (good!) pro will get it right far more often than an average rider, whether this refers to timing of aids or placing to a fence. Many common problems just will not occur as the rider will have stopped them almost unconciously before they really began.
It's the coins in the confidence piggy bank metaphor- you have to put in a lot more than you take out.


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## patch1234 (6 November 2012)

Ive taken advice from my vet and my trainer who know this horse well, they are both in the racing, dressage and showjumping circles at the highest levels.

Maybe there is a huge difference in the way of thinking between high level competitors and people who compete and ride for fun.  I dont know im just totally confused now on what to do, i thought i had figured it out, but now not so sure.

I do want him to compete thats why I bought him but not at the expence of his happiness.  

Ive got to try everything until i find a plan that works for him.  I would prefer to turn away for a while but hes been back 3 weeks and he is not happy with this routine.

Im not a numpty Ive just not had a horse like him before and have been told the competion types are very different from your every day horses.


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## Theocat (6 November 2012)

FWIW I don't think you're a troll.  I see an owner who has asked for advice in various places, weighed it up, and made a plan of action on the basis of all advice, and built in some flexibility if it turns out that this is the wrong plan.

Pretty exemplary way of dealing with a horse problem, IMO.

We don't actually know that it's the yard / pro that caused the problems - it might be  something as simple as a change in the style of handling.  I'm pretty sure a couple of visits a week will show that one way or the other, and the OP sounds sensible and experienced enough to pull the plug straight away if it becomes apparent that it's causing more problems - and has already said that's what they'll do.


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## christine48 (6 November 2012)

It's no good beating yourself up about this. It does sound as if because he is talented he has been over pressured and been asked too much too soon, but what's done is done.
Get him checked for ulcers, maybe feed a calmer for a while. I would give him a short break and if possible leave his NZ on 24/7, minimal grooming etc and just let him be a horse for a while.
When he comes back into work can you just hack him for a while?


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## WelshD (6 November 2012)

FWIW I also dont think you are a troll but I do think you are maybe a bit overkeen to get going

You and your horse have years ahead together. Years and years for him to develop and use his obvious talents

I will put my hands up and say that I dont know much about high level competition horses but from a completely simplistic view I would also turn the horse away for a few months, plenty of time for him to get fit in the spring, he wont forget what he knows, it will all come back quickly when he is in work again

For now I would take the pressure off you and him

Good luck with whatever you decide


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## Gingerwitch (6 November 2012)

Patch1234 - a horse is a horse - weather it be an overfaced 11.2hh welshie or an overfaced 17.2 "competition" horse.

Sorry i just cannot get my hat on with you - a horse backed for 12 weeks has been progressed to  jumping 4ft fences - could go higher  - why - to ruin his legs? and if you think you have had a light time overhere in NL - some of them will string you up in CR -

How on earth can you establish a correct way of going, build his strength up, cement what he has learnt and then learn to be balanced over fences of that height, oh and go x country too - jeze - that is some going for anyone.


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## Bikerchickone (6 November 2012)

I think it's more horses for courses as to whether or not you turn away. My youngster was backed at 3 and a half, was away for 10 weeks during which she didn't put a hoof wrong. I got her back at the start of October and decided to turn her away for the winter to think things over, as I had with my gelding. Within 3 days she went from being calm and happy to rearing when lead in from the field and trying to attack people over the stable door. 

After a few weeks like this we brought her back into work and she settled down again. Some horses like having jobs to do, however young, and in my mind I really don't see a problem with keeping them in work if they're happier that way.


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## AmiRobertson (6 November 2012)

Patch do you mind me asking why you won't have lessons on him yourself, maybe with the trainer at your yard? maybe once a week and then light hacking the rest of the week. After all it will be you (I think) competing him so surely this is a journey you and your horse should make together.


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## Littlelegs (6 November 2012)

Imo, too much, too soon & the horse is stressed. No idea where the idea that comp horses are some strange species comes from. Certainly not ime. If it were me, I'd do some light work, not all this jumping 4' spreads & xc bs, & gradually wind down to some time off.


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## Equestrianforever28 (6 November 2012)

shysmum said:



*The trainer may be an "excellent rider" but he has knackered up your horse !!!!! *And you are sending that poor horse back, against every bit of evidence. I loathe posts like this - why bother posting if you are going to send the horse back anyway ?

THAT is why I believe you are a troll. This is your first posting on here, and it's a very contraversial one.
		
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shes is not troll !!! she only asked people what to do


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## charlie76 (6 November 2012)

Op,  you do what you think is, right for you and your horse,  I think he will be better with the pro for now.  
To all those that are jumping to conclusion that the pro is in the wrong,  maybe the horse is simply happier in the more demanding work now he is fit.  Don't take this the wrong way op,  but you sent a mini metro and have been sent back a sports car which is what you wanted but now he us prob a bit bored with you and needs the stimulation and work to be settled.  
I had a horse come to me recently that was with me as he was naughty to ride,  bucked several people off,  wouldn't be mounted and had not been sat on for a year.  Within one week of hard work he was quietly being ridden by me and my working pupil with no issues in all three paces. He went home ready to go on,  within two days he was being naughty again. Now I don't think that was my fault,  the horse was simply happier in a structured routine with plenty of work.
In a professional yard,  like mine,  the horses will not be cuddled and fussed,  they will be seen to and handled but in a matter of fact way.  If you don't continue in this way once it has been started and let them sneak over the barriers set,  esp a young horse,  they will start to push their luck.
As for the work level,  he will be pushed more in a pro yard than at home as you are paying for results,  you wanted him to do young horse classes,  this is what they would school towards.  
Instead of assuming the horse has been over done,  the likely hood is he is an intelligent quick learner who is missing the stimulation he got used to.  
And I also agree,  having groomed for and ridden horses up to Olympic level,  its highly unusual to have a horse of this talent that is not quirky,  to be competing at that level the horse needs to have some arrogance.

To all those who have advised that the pro had ruined the horse,  have any of you been successful in any young horse classes and if so how did you produce your young horse to do them without them being put under any pressure.  .. not a dig,  a genuine question.


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## Dukey (6 November 2012)

I feel so sorry for you having to deal with some of the comments on here  I have a youngster who was backed by a well known eventer. He had some time out but hated it. He really does love to work! He is a highly strung competition horse and when he has times that he isn't using his brain he will find ways of being 'naughty'. Although its not naughty to him its his way of making his life fun! This has been bolting off when being lead, not being caught, box walking and exploding on the lunge. When he is under saddle he is an angel! I have a feeling its the change from the pros yard to being more relaxed with you. 
Yes give him some time off, but I think the problem is that he wants to work and possibily a little bored?


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## Meowy Catkin (6 November 2012)

Deleted.


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## Mongoose11 (6 November 2012)

shysmum said:



*OMG YOU ARE SENDING HIM BACK *

Even just for a few days a week - this horse has been traumatised by something that went on there - isn't that obvious ?? 

Good God, that poor,poor horse.   GIVE HIM A BREAK - it's not all about MONEY and BADMINTON !!!!!!!

In fact I am so shocked, I am starting to think this may be troll post ?
		
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So the thread has established that this horse needs turn out and has been over faced, currently ridden everyday at the trainers and it has been too much too soon.

OP is moving horse back, turning out, assessing feed, going to look for other health issues and planning to work the horse twice a week and this is your reaction? Why the drama, it seems the OP is going to do much of what everyone has suggested and if the horse is to be worked twice a week rather than every day by the trainer then I see this as a step in the right direction in taking the pressure off the young horse.

With the way you are carrying on anyone would think that she had suggested starving and beating the poor thing. Get a grip.


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## patch1234 (6 November 2012)

AmiRobertson said:



			Patch do you mind me asking why you won't have lessons on him yourself, maybe with the trainer at your yard? maybe once a week and then light hacking the rest of the week. After all it will be you (I think) competing him so surely this is a journey you and your horse should make together.
		
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I will eventually ride him but not good enough for the level of competition he is aimed at, so dont want to do something stupid and upset him whilst so young.  His training is aimed at a horse heading for the higher levels not a general hacking horse.


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## Marydoll (6 November 2012)

littlelegs said:



			Imo, too much, too soon & the horse is stressed. No idea where the idea that comp horses are some strange species comes from. Certainly not ime. If it were me, I'd do some light work, not all this jumping 4' spreads & xc bs, & gradually wind down to some time off.
		
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Bingo ...... We have a winner ^^^^

Definitely sounds like to much to soon. And if youve any hope of unscrambling his brain, he needs to be allowed to be a horse for a while.
If he was mine he'd then go back to building on the basics of building muscle, learning balance and progressing at a normal, not accelerated rate.
It sounds like he's had a lovely willing trainable temperament and been pushed to far. at the end of the day he's yours and you'll make the choice, the pro has nothing to lose, you on the other and have much to lose.
Ive never heard of problems taking a horse to slow, but plenty when its been done to fast


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## AmiRobertson (6 November 2012)

patch1234 said:



			I will eventually ride him but not good enough for the level of competition he is aimed at, so dont want to do something stupid and upset him whilst so young.  His training is aimed at a horse heading for the higher levels not a general hacking horse.
		
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Ok but will you not be competing him yourself? I don't understand why you would have a horse you won't compete yourself (sorry not trying to sound rude at all) I can understand having a horse at that level if you are at that level yourself but otherwise where is the joy in ownership? Unless you are producing to sell on.
I plan on eventing my 4yr old in the future and it will be me riding her. I have weekly lessons in just dressage at the moment with a lady (who has trained olympic horses and has done training at the spanish dressage school) as that for me is the foundation of our ridden bond and then we have 1 other schooling session on our own (20mins) and then 3 hacks per week but schooling while we are out. I will start to jump her next year (she has already jumped but want her balanced first and confident before we start properly) and also planning on doing some xc country clinics next summer.
The pleasure of owning my youngster is the work that I do with her and the bond that we have. She is not a general hacking horse and she is also very bright and eager and I don't want to break that. I would never dream of sending her anywhere for someone else to train but that doesn't mean I don't have the support of a professional trainer who comes to me but she also makes sure that I am learning how to educate my horse properly as well as teaching the horse.


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## Marydoll (6 November 2012)

patch1234 said:



			I will eventually ride him but not good enough for the level of competition he is aimed at, so dont want to do something stupid and upset him whilst so young.  His training is aimed at a horse heading for the higher levels not a general hacking horse.
		
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The sales and dealers are riddled with young quality comp horses who've had their brains fried by to much to soon, never got to hack, stabled and jump,jump,jumped, then when theyve had it, they switch off, cant de compress, cant hack, as they dont know how, please think long and hard about what youre planning to do with this horse


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## dressedkez (6 November 2012)

I have not read all 11 pages on this - but what I have scanned through - it seems that every expert has a view!
So OK here comes another 'expert' to have a view!
But hopefully a more simplistic one - OP, turn the horse out for a few weeks, and resist doing anything with him, other than what you did before he went to be broken.
Then when he has returned to the horse you knew and loved, gently re-introduce some education - tack him up, leave him (day one) Tack him up take him for a walk (day two) if all well - maybe long rein him. Get a knowledgable friend to help you re-back him in a safe area. Take him for hacks with quiet horses, and don't ask too many questions. When he is more settled then maybe the 'event' training can come on slowly.......
There is backing (which actually can take days - hours if you subscribe to the Monty Roberts school of thought) and breaking and schooling that can take months / years. It is all (in my view) about building on positive experiences, and then giving the horse time to think on that and learn for itself - like kids, they all learn and develop differently.
I am riding a youngster myself - that was simply backed (not schooled) and I am attempting to do that element myself - we are into about week four / five now (and have gone know where near a school) it is all done on hacks - mostly out on his own, meeting new things, growing in confidence - so far all is good (but I do know that sooner rather than later we will have a blip) but it is all about relatively gentle questions.
I have over cooked youngsters in the past - easy to do, if they are showing talent, and they can over night go from being angels to devils. 
Good luck, hopefully your horse will return to his normal routine, feel happy again, and will turn out to be lovely.


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## LEC (6 November 2012)

Good to see the 'best' of the forum in action.
With so many experts I cannot understand why the standards in this country are not better!


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## Ibblebibble (6 November 2012)

theres been some great advice and thoughts here already(and some HUGE over reactions but hey it's HHO )but one question which sprang to mind and i don't think has come up , when you collected your horse from the trainer what routine did they suggest to you, did they advise to turn the horse away or to keep working him? 
My friend sent a 3 yr old away for backing , she was under strict instructions to just turn him away for the winter once he got home, no lunging no messing just turned away. Now i know your horse is a year older and his training was more intense so i'm not expecting you to have been told the same as my friend, just interested to know what the trainer suggested 3 weeks ago.


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## partypremier (6 November 2012)

Op just a small piece of advice.  Always see & ride your horse when it is away being broken or re-educated.  
You obviously have some faith in the person who broke him, so let them see you around him & ride him too, they will be able to give you help & advice.
A few years ago I sent a promising 4 year old to a top sjer to back & do young horse classes on.
She was so quiet & easy before she went & grew horns & 2 heads afterwards.  Not because he done her bad but because she was so adrenaline fuelled with the jumping.  She did put her all into the jumping but couldn't contain it just for the ring (like a lot of competition horses).
A lot of good comp horses are pigs to be around & they didn't all start out life like that!
We put them under pressure at an early age some cope others don't, personally if it's a behaviour issue I have carefully carried on & worked though it at 4 they can be like stroppy kids thinking they know it all but it does take years to learn & absorb what is asked & expected!


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## Echo Bravo (6 November 2012)

Sell now while he's still saleable. sounds like he really couldn't hack the regime they put him through, do you want a kind sensible horse that enjoys his work or one that wants to get through it so fast he's dangerous


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## Equilibrium Ireland (6 November 2012)

I didn't start out competing my homebred are either. Reasons are the following. I'd been away from jumpers for awhile and didn't want to screw her up, similar to OP. However, I did all the breaking with her. Reason 2. I was busy with breaking and then my husband went to Saudi. Reason 3. I'm not good at everything. I've had a well rounded career. I have many strengths but wouldn't be the greatest rider in the jumping ring. I admit I forget courses. Then I best myself up for being useless. So I figured the best thing was to send my youngster out to a pro close by. I was there nearly everyday. For a long time things were good. When she started progressing and jumping higher rider really wasn't doing her any favors and she started going backwards. She was getting him out of trouble. Then he started riding frustrated on all his horses. I decided enough was enough. I had plans to jump her myself but life got in the way. Not so bad because I learned much more about her and I had to become a better rider. So the aim is for next year. But she's sound and happy and still maturing at 6. Mom was is a NH bred horse bred to go 4 miles so hardly surprising! 

And just to add a little something. Starting horses is a skill set just like being an Upper Level rider. I'll never be an UL rider but I enjoy starting youngsters the right way. I don't care if your horse was a freebie, cheapy, or really expensive, they all get looked after to the best of my ability. 

Terri


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## AmiRobertson (6 November 2012)

Patch when you sent him off to be backed was him being a top eventer the desired end result or was it the trainer who decided this was his potential. Also was he home bred? And what were your intentions for him before he went to the trainer?


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## christine48 (6 November 2012)

Hacking after 2 weeks, XC, jumping 4 ft, flying changes, lateral work?? Of course he's been rushed and asked to do things before he's mentally &'physically able to. If you send him back he will end up more screwed up than he already is.
Talent isn't everything they have to have the brain and temperament too to become a top horse.
The chap that backs our horses has them for around 6 weeks. He does lots of long reining, hacking pole work. They are not schooled at that stage. They all come back very level headed & happy. We then turn them away for a while.


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## charlie76 (6 November 2012)

Can I just add,  the op has not once said the horse is naughty to ride just to handle,  how does being difficult to handle reflect the work he has done under saddle,  all it actually tell you is that he is trying his luck in a less regimentent routine. Is he being tied up to groom etc,  when you lunge him do you use side reins?


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## devonlass (6 November 2012)

OP,you sounds like a very sensible and caring owner,and I'm hoping you're sensible enough to ignore the dramatics and 'those who know everything' brigade and carry on with what YOU think is best.

No one here has even set eyes on your horse or met your trainer so how on earth they can be so adamant and self righteous in their 'advice' is beyond me,but hey ho as someone else said it is HHO

Of course there are some fab posters on here,and i hope you can take something away from those who have replied with sensible and balanced views

Your lad may have done too much too soon,or he may just be confused with the let down,who knows.It doesn't matter to be honest you have to deal with the here and now and the problems you face regardless of the cause.

For what it's worth I think your plan of action sounds fine,I suspect you will find with some consistent handling,some bonding and down time with you and some proper work with the trainer he will settle back down to his more laid back self and biddable self.
If not then you have learnt what doesn't work and can try something new.You will get there I am sure


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## thehorsephotographer (6 November 2012)

devonlass said:



			OP,you sounds like a very sensible and caring owner,and I'm hoping you're sensible enough to ignore the dramatics and 'those who know everything' brigade and carry on with what YOU think is best.

No one here has even set eyes on your horse or met your trainer so how on earth they can be so adamant and self righteous in their 'advice' is beyond me,but hey ho as someone else said it is HHO

Of course there are some fab posters on here,and i hope you can take something away from those who have replied with sensible and balanced views

Your lad may have done too much too soon,or he may just be confused with the let down,who knows.It doesn't matter to be honest you have to deal with the here and now and the problems you face regardless of the cause.

For what it's worth I think your plan of action sounds fine,I suspect you will find with some consistent handling,some bonding and down time with you and some proper work with the trainer he will settle back down to his more laid back self and biddable self.
If not then you have learnt what doesn't work and can try something new.You will get there I am sure

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^^^^^^^
Well said.


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## dressedkez (6 November 2012)

devonlass said:



			OP,you sounds like a very sensible and caring owner,and I'm hoping you're sensible enough to ignore the dramatics and 'those who know everything' brigade and carry on with what YOU think is best.

No one here has even set eyes on your horse or met your trainer so how on earth they can be so adamant and self righteous in their 'advice' is beyond me,but hey ho as someone else said it is HHO

Of course there are some fab posters on here,and i hope you can take something away from those who have replied with sensible and balanced views

Your lad may have done too much too soon,or he may just be confused with the let down,who knows.It doesn't matter to be honest you have to deal with the here and now and the problems you face regardless of the cause.

For what it's worth I think your plan of action sounds fine,I suspect you will find with some consistent handling,some bonding and down time with you and some proper work with the trainer he will settle back down to his more laid back self and biddable self.
If not then you have learnt what doesn't work and can try something new.You will get there I am sure

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Well said Devonlass........


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## Twinkley Lights (6 November 2012)

Billie1007 said:



			So the thread has established that this horse needs turn out and has been over faced, currently ridden everyday at the trainers and it has been too much too soon.

OP is moving horse back, turning out, assessing feed, going to look for other health issues and planning to work the horse twice a week and this is your reaction? Why the drama, it seems the OP is going to do much of what everyone has suggested and if the horse is to be worked twice a week rather than every day by the trainer then I see this as a step in the right direction in taking the pressure off the young horse.

With the way you are carrying on anyone would think that she had suggested starving and beating the poor thing. Get a grip.
		
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My point exactly why the drama  ... mmm trouble started then disappear - I sense a pattern - spot the troll.


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## Twinkley Lights (6 November 2012)

Echo Bravo said:



			Sell now while he's still saleable. sounds like he really couldn't hack the regime they put him through, do you want a kind sensible horse that enjoys his work or one that wants to get through it so fast he's dangerous
		
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OMG he is only being a tad naughty at home after a few changes in management and new stuff , have I confused threads or something.


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## patch1234 (6 November 2012)

AmiRobertson said:



			Ok but will you not be competing him yourself? I don't understand why you would have a horse you won't compete yourself (sorry not trying to sound rude at all) I can understand having a horse at that level if you are at that level yourself but otherwise where is the joy in ownership? Unless you are producing to sell on.
I plan on eventing my 4yr old in the future and it will be me riding her. I have weekly lessons in just dressage at the moment with a lady (who has trained olympic horses and has done training at the spanish dressage school) as that for me is the foundation of our ridden bond and then we have 1 other schooling session on our own (20mins) and then 3 hacks per week but schooling while we are out. I will start to jump her next year (she has already jumped but want her balanced first and confident before we start properly) and also planning on doing some xc country clinics next summer.
The pleasure of owning my youngster is the work that I do with her and the bond that we have. She is not a general hacking horse and she is also very bright and eager and I don't want to break that. I would never dream of sending her anywhere for someone else to train but that doesn't mean I don't have the support of a professional trainer who comes to me but she also makes sure that I am learning how to educate my horse properly as well as teaching the horse.
		
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If it wasnt for people owning the horses and letting the professionals ride them we would have no top horses as generally the riders are not the ones with the deep pockets.

Like i said this is not a general competition horse he is aimed at the high levels so has the costs associated with that.  I am lucky enough to have the funds to persue this.  I own 5 other horses 3 are ridden reguarly by me, this one is well above this level and deserves a professional rider and not be mucked about by a lesser being including myself.

It is extremely rewarding being an owner and watching the best on your horse.  I will still hack him about later on but he needs a professional rider at the moment.


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## Jesstickle (6 November 2012)

charlie76 said:



			Can I just add,  the op has not once said the horse is naughty to ride just to handle,  how does being difficult to handle reflect the work he has done under saddle,  all it actually tell you is that he is trying his luck in a less regimentent routine. Is he being tied up to groom etc,  when you lunge him do you use side reins?
		
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The horse is weaving. As far as I know this is a fairly universally accepted sign of an unhappy horse  

I doubt very much he is weaving through 'trying his luck' so I don't read into the situation what you do at all. All I think we can say is that the horse, for some reason, is stressed or bored by his regime. Not the same thing at all in my eyes.

I think the OP is right to go back to the trainer FWIW and ask his opinion. He knows the horse after all.

I only have one friend who competes her youngsters in age classes. Obviously they are under pressure and yes some are quirky.  What I can't understand is why the horse went from zero to one hundred as seems to be the case. Surely most people wanting to do age classes start at three and do a bit, turn away and pick up again at four so the horse isn't expected to learn everything this horse has learnt in such a compressed time frame?  Genuine question as I am interested in how other people do things 

ETS: OP if you never want him for yourself and it doesn't matter if he is difficult to handle at times I really wouldn't worry. If he is happy with the pro (assuming he was) and the pro is happy to have him then you don't need him to settle at home. I was working on the assumption you wanted him as your riding horse.


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## patch1234 (6 November 2012)

jesstickle said:



			The horse is weaving. As far as I know this is a fairly universally accepted sign of an unhappy horse  

I doubt very much he is weaving through 'trying his luck' so I don't read into the situation what you do at all. All I think we can say is that the horse, for some reason, is stressed or bored by his regime. Not the same thing at all in my eyes.

I think the OP is right to go back to the trainer FWIW and ask his opinion. He knows the horse after all.

I only have one friend who competes her youngsters in age classes. Obviously they are under pressure and yes some are quirky.  What I can't understand is why the horse went from zero to one hundred as seems to be the case. Surely most people wanting to do age classes start at three and do a bit, turn away and pick up again at four so the horse isn't expected to learn everything this horse has learnt in such a compressed time frame?  Genuine question as I am interested in how other people do things 

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He did alot of ground work at 3 so was fully accustomed to bridle, saddle ect and was lightly sat on but was very gangly so i took the decision to wait until 4 to be backed fully.  He was loose schooled at 3 this is when paces ect were first noticed by other professional trainers who are friends of mine, this led on to the recommendation of where he was eventually sent.

His ridden ability and progress have not been the issue, he is perfectly happy to be tacked up and ridden.  His problem is in the stable especially when brought in thats when the weaving and head throwing happens.  In the field he is absolutely normal.  When tied up he plays up a bit, i do remember that tacking up and picking out feet was all done in stable on backing yard.


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## AmiRobertson (6 November 2012)

Agree with jesstickle I was under the impression that you wanted him for yourself to ride as well.


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## JanetGeorge (6 November 2012)

shysmum said:



*The trainer may be an "excellent rider" but he has knackered up your horse !!!!! *And you are sending that poor horse back, against every bit of evidence. I loathe posts like this - why bother posting if you are going to send the horse back anyway ?

THAT is why I believe you are a troll. This is your first posting on here, and it's a very contraversial one.
		
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Actually, some of us ADVISED getting help from the trainer!!  There is NO evidence the trainer has "knackered the horse" and it's a good thing the OP didn't identify the trainer or he might be coming after you for libel.

I don't think the OP is a troll - she is a genuine person who was worried by unexpected behaviour from her horse when he came back from 12 weeks at another yard.  Some horses (particularly well-bred/sensitive types) CAN get very upset/out of character just by a change of venue - others, who have been SEVERE problems before a move can come to a professonal and immediately be on their best behaviour!

I wonder how many 'quality' horses you have trained??  If more than 1, then you probably should have learned SOMETHING - rather than jumping to conclusions, and being downright rude - just because the OP followed some of the advice she received here - but not YOURS!

OP, devonlass put it very well!  I too think you have the right plan of action - and very much hope than in a few weeks you'll be posting to let us know it's working!


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## AmiRobertson (6 November 2012)

Hence why I though it was a very high pedestal that he had been set upon. So I really hope you manage to sort out his problems and manage to find a good rider for him


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## charlie76 (6 November 2012)

I'm not saying the weaving is trying his luck but the head butting and general rudeness is! Also of course weaving can be a sign of the horse being unhappy but it can also be a sign of impatience,  esp in a fit,  well fed youngster who forgot his manners.  Please don't assume I am incompetent,  I have just had many years of dealing with fit,  talented horses,  most of which have had one issue or another. I have also schooled and trained horses aimed at young horse classes and whether you like it or not with that goes a certain amount of pressure on those young horses.  To compete on four year old dressage classes the horse has to be working at elementary level to be competitive,  evening its 90


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## charlie76 (6 November 2012)

Stupid phone! Should say eventING its 90 cm so would want to be jumping at least one metre sj and xc at home and I believe four yr old bs sj is around 1 m 10 in the first round (happy to be corrected) so yes,  its a lot of pressure if you choose to aim for these classes


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## charlie76 (6 November 2012)

Ps janetgeorge.... well said!


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## Truly (7 November 2012)

Hi,
I've read all your posts and hope you don't mind me adding to the replies as hope it can help you?
I've got lots of horses, mainly that I have bred but have one that is similar to your boy...he is a 17.3hh TB bred to event by Primitive Rising, very intelligent, quick to learn, uphill. loves to work etc. but he hates being separated from other horses and I have to cater around him eg. I turn him out first and he is one of the last to come in at night. He hates being in the stable on his own or brought in from the field to work when they are all out.
He is like Jekhal and Hyde...when he is stressed he will barge at the door, run round his box, kick the walls, nearly knock me over...the rest of the time he is the most mild mannered well behaved loving horse!
I never work him in the morning if the others are turned out and I bring his friend in with him if I want to work him during the day or I work him once they have all come in.
Some horses settle into a routine after a few weeks but some are always anxious about being separated. Some it is due to being stabled 24/7 and they worry they will never go out again, most settle into a routine of going out every day again but some don't. My horse has never been in 24/7 so with him it's not that but he just hates being separated and left in and I have to cater around him and keep the same routine as I can't change him.
Your plan sounds good to me, so I can only say stick to the routine but cater around him and hopefully he'll settle x


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## Dobiegirl (7 November 2012)

OP you are not a troll.

I dont know whether this will help put this into perspective but many years ago I worked for a very successful show exhibitor. The only staff were myself and the boss and she would either buy in or have a 3yr homebred for breaking. These would be brought on slowly and shown under saddle as 4year olds and after showing we would cub hunt them and then turn away. They would then come in and start work in March and resume their show careers. These were always tbs and all had quirks but it was part of their character. Their brains were not fried and they had no stable vices.

Reading some of the other posts it looks like I worked for the devil although they did get turnout we were on the road a lot doing the show circuit.

People also forget about racehorses, a lot of french tbs are raced at 3yrs old over jumps, indeed Kauto Star started out this way and he is not the exception.


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## Jools1234 (7 November 2012)

Dobiegirl said:



			People also forget about racehorses, a lot of french tbs are raced at 3yrs old over jumps, indeed Kauto Star started out this way and he is not the exception.
		
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just because it is done, does not make it right, so many race horses break down early due to be started so young


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## Amymay (7 November 2012)

AmiRobertson said:



			I don't understand why you would have a horse you won't compete yourself (sorry not trying to sound rude at all) I can understand having a horse at that level if you are at that level yourself but otherwise where is the joy in ownership?
		
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What a completely ridiculous thing to say!

OP - good luck with him.  Let us know how you get on.


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## annaellie (7 November 2012)

I really don't think you are a troll at all, Some horses can be pushed more than others. Some thrive off the strict routine where others don't I agree completely with jg get the pros take on it.

As for not competing the horse yourself well there are lots of people who do not compete themselves and really enjoy watching their horse out competing. I know when I had my old boy who was very talented i was going to have someone compete him for me as I get really nervous in the ring and while I could school him up the grades at home, I fell to pieces in anything other than a local show.


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## Jesstickle (7 November 2012)

charlie76 said:



			I have also schooled and trained horses aimed at young horse classes and whether you like it or not with that goes a certain amount of pressure on those young horses.  To compete on four year old dressage classes the horse has to be working at elementary level to be competitive,  evening its 90
		
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I don't doubt it. That's why I asked how such horses are usually started. It really was a genuine question as I only know one person that does it in RL


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## Littlelegs (7 November 2012)

Ops horse has gone from nothing, to jumping 4' spreads, xc, & lateral work in the space of 12weeks. Whatever you think about working young horses, that's an awful lot to learn in such a small period. Maybe some horses can cope with that, ops doesn't seem to be one of them. Weaving is a stress behavior, not a quirk. Most newly backed 4yr olds are pretty compliant, they're still finding their feet, so the fact it behaves in ridden work means nothing. Just because its physically managing, doesn't mean it mentally is. And if just put down to being a quirky comp horse, then sooner or later the ridden work will suffer too. If he's aimed at badminton, then why risk all that potential for the sake of having an accomplished 4yr old who isn't mentally mature enough? (not aimed at you op, more those saying its normal comp horse behavior).


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## cornbrodolly (7 November 2012)

To throw my pennies worth in .....
firstly, no horse is bothered whether they are 'talented' or not - its we humans that decide their fate - they dont 'deserve' to fulfill their potential- whatever that is. OP sounds very like a friend of ours who bred a few horses and hawked them everywhere to train and 'fulfill their potential'. What did she get - screwed up horses that had been overtrained at a young age - rearers, weavers,generally very unhappy horses. 
The horse s mind is the same whether its a plod or top competition - their instincts are the same. Their needs are the same . The only difference is how we treat them. With OH[ he did nearly all the work, me assisiting] I have seen enough of screwed up young horses all in the name of competition- and had to rehabilitate them -not an easy task.
 And yes, we compete ourselves - top level showing , highish levels BD,  ,eventing [1980s!] and general horsemanship-hunting,teamchasing etc . Its totally possible that horses can be backed and trained to compete at whatever level without changing personality. Possible and ideally should always be the case
.Of coarse there are good trainers/professional yards out there - but yours does not sound like one of them!! Any one backing horses and making the lame excuse that the horse will change personality is to me not good at the job.
OP, you are ignoring compassionate advise because you have been hoodwinked that your horse is super talented - no, its just a horse - a horse that will reflect what your dreams and wishes are. And if you ignore the advise on here - to turnhim away to settle and mature [ my God, what are his limbs like already after jumping high at 4?!], or at least refrain from training on till spring , then you are putting your ambitions before the needs of your horse.


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## Ladyinred (7 November 2012)

cornbrodolly said:



			To throw my pennies worth in .....
firstly, no horse is bothered whether they are 'talented' or not - its we humans that decide their fate - they dont 'deserve' to fulfill their potential- whatever that is. OP sounds very like a friend of ours who bred a few horses and hawked them everywhere to train and 'fulfill their potential'. What did she get - screwed up horses that had been overtrained at a young age - rearers, weavers,generally very unhappy horses. 
The horse s mind is the same whether its a plod or top competition - their instincts are the same. Their needs are the same . The only difference is how we treat them. With OH[ he did nearly all the work, me assisiting] I have seen enough of screwed up young horses all in the name of competition- and had to rehabilitate them -not an easy task.
 And yes, we compete ourselves - top level showing , highish levels BD,  ,eventing [1980s!] and general horsemanship-hunting,teamchasing etc . Its totally possible that horses can be backed and trained to compete at whatever level without changing personality. Possible and ideally should always be the case
.Of coarse there are good trainers/professional yards out there - but yours does not sound like one of them!! Any one backing horses and making the lame excuse that the horse will change personality is to me not good at the job.
OP, you are ignoring compassionate advise because you have been hoodwinked that your horse is super talented - no, its just a horse - a horse that will reflect what your dreams and wishes are. And if you ignore the advise on here - to turnhim away to settle and mature [ my God, what are his limbs like already after jumping high at 4?!], or at least refrain from training on till spring , then you are putting your ambitions before the needs of your horse.
		
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Hear hear!!


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## kirstykate (7 November 2012)

I'd like for you Kristykate to get some of the ones we get in and see what you can do in 12 weeks. Totally unhandled. As in can't even walk with a person and had a head collar on for the first time while in a cattle crush on the way into the trailer. 



Un-handled best way to get them so innocent and trustworthy if you know the job, it is so much easier to have them this way than badly handled, with the correct ground work we were on-them and away in a couple of weeks we loved them like that.


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## Gingerwitch (7 November 2012)

STOP THE PRESS.....

Its now 5 in CR oh and was started at 3 now and then turned away !


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## charlie76 (7 November 2012)

Gingerwitch,  do you honestly have nothing better to do.


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## Gingerwitch (7 November 2012)

Charlie76 - not being sarky but right at this moment in time no - laid up with a bad fracture to the leg - not allowed to get up and the tele box has broken - oh has gone to work and i am stuck on my own now till about 8pm tonight.

I was on my own all day yesterday till gone 10pm - as mum and dad away and best mates are worn out looking after two horses on quaranteened box rest - my other set of pals are getting read to go to YHL - so i am pretty board.


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## apple88 (7 November 2012)

Random question.. but have you had him checked for ulcers?
Our vets had an ulcer day recently where they scoped 5 horses for ulcers, the 3 that I saw all had drastic change in behaviours. just a thought.
I hope you find the cause soon!


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## xspiralx (7 November 2012)

Having read the whole thread, I have no comments on the speed with which this horse has been brought on.

However I am astounded at the suggestion that weaving, head throwing and awful bargy stable manners are par for the course if you want a competition horse.

Why can a competition horse not be chilled out and well mannered to deal with in the stable? I see no reason they should be otherwise.

Yes, some horses can be quirky, talented or not. But if this horse was calm and well mannered before, being fit and schooled shouldn't be a reason for stable vices and appalling manners.


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## Dolcé (7 November 2012)

dornrose said:



			Have you spoken to the trainer and asked them whether this is normal for how your horse was when he was there? 

Is it possible to get him out to see him and possibly ride him?

QUOTE]

This, I also wonder if the difference in handling is a problem, going from a professionals manner to a 'mums' way, I haven't read all the threads but from OP get the impression of a horse trying to boss you.  It could be that any change in handling is giving him the idea to be bad mannered to try and be top dog, if he thinks he can get away with it.  I would try firm (but fair) and consistent handling for a few days, be matter of fact, don't get cross and don't try to cuddle him.
		
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## Honey08 (7 November 2012)

charlie76 said:



			Gingerwitch,  do you honestly have nothing better to do.
		
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Echo this.



Gingerwitch said:



			Charlie76 - not being sarky but right at this moment in time no - laid up with a bad fracture to the leg - not allowed to get up and the tele box has broken - oh has gone to work and i am stuck on my own now till about 8pm tonight.

I was on my own all day yesterday till gone 10pm - as mum and dad away and best mates are worn out looking after two horses on quaranteened box rest - my other set of pals are getting read to go to YHL - so i am pretty board.
		
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Do you realise you're coming across as a bit of a stalker - obsessed with this poster and her threads, popping up on various ones to incite people to criticise her and pick at what she has posted.

We get the message - you don't believe what she is posting.  Some of us do.  Leave the threads alone if they wind you up so much.  Its not worth it!!


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## Twinkley Lights (7 November 2012)

Honey08 said:



			Echo this.



Do you realise you're coming across as a bit of a stalker - obsessed with this poster and her threads, popping up on various ones to incite people to criticise her and pick at what she has posted.

We get the message - you don't believe what she is posting.  Some of us do.  Leave the threads alone if they wind you up so much.  Its not worth it!!
		
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Ginger witch was not acting alone she had a partner in crime last night who started the meanness and troll calling  caused drama and then disappeared bit of a habit for some.. Ginger witch did say she was 100 
per cent with this person. 

Agree with Honey just leave it as it spoils the forum and upsets innocent new members who need support.


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## Jools1234 (7 November 2012)

OP I may have missed it somewhere along the lines, but who is going to be competing this horse?  i realise its not you i just wondered if it is the same person that backed him. if you trust them and feel they have your horses best interest at heart then why not just send the horse to them full time and let them bring the horse on from now as they feel it is best for him to stay in work?

i does mean you wont have to deal with how he is behaving on the ground


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## AmiRobertson (7 November 2012)

amymay said:



			What a completely ridiculous thing to say!

OP - good luck with him.  Let us know how you get on.
		
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Not ridiculous I was under the impression that this was HER horse for HER to ride and that she had sent him away to be backed only to be told he had vast potential, will go to badminton etc and now she felt she wasn't good enough to ride him hence why I thought there was no joy for her from owning this horse.
However she corrected me and if that is what makes her happy then brilliant and I hope she manages to sort his problems and that he really does reach his potential.


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## patch1234 (7 November 2012)

I bought the horse just turned 2, I knew his breeding was exceptional so he was brought to become a competition horse in the future.  

Yes I will ride him at the levels im confident at but should he progress further he will be ridden by a professional rider.

The trainer who is already a professional rider, rides and schools to a very high level so the horse is used to being ridden very correctly so it would not be fair for me to ride him at the moment as this may intefere with his progression as my skills are not fine tuned like the trainers.

I always knew he was likely to be talanted, just not as talanted as he is.  

I understand some people may not see the need for him to reach his full potential just because he has the talent, but i do not agree with this, its just a case of making sure it is done correctly.

After long conversations with various people today its been concluded that the work wasnt an issue for him it was more likely the return home to a completely different routine which has thrown him a bit.

Therefore his routine has changed but still includes a good turn out period daily with his friends and a different approach in the way we handle him.  I will let everyone know over the next few weeks if its worked or not.


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## patch1234 (7 November 2012)

Gingerwitch said:



			STOP THE PRESS.....

Its now 5 in CR oh and was started at 3 now and then turned away !
		
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It was not 3 then turned away it was still doing things but not ridden then went to be backed.

Whats the matter with you????????


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## TeamChaser (7 November 2012)

Sounds like you now have some firm plans around his continuing education which will hopefully do the trick. And why on earth should you not want to see him achieve his full potential?? I imagine it will give you huge pleasure and I'm guessing is what you bought him for. You're also clearly concerned for his well being and there's absolutely no reason he shouldn't progress to be a happy contented horse as well as a fabulous competition horse all being well! Sounds to me like a change in routine has unsettled him a bit and he's a bit confused and acting out

Mine had some issues as a 5 year old - in his case he had been over cooked as the people that produced him had seen some potential in him (I believe he was competing BE Novice by this stage).  This resulted ultimately in extreme napiness and him spending most of the time on his back legs for a period of time! Had got to the stage where he couldn't even leave the yard, in fact destined for the meat man (previous owners, not me!) had my YO at the time not stepped in. Not the same situation but the key to him was consistent handling. He wasn't turned away - to me there's always a risk that a complete monster comes back in! He was ridden every day without having too much asked of him until he relaxed again and learned actually that the rearing wasn't achieving anything - he could stand on his back legs all day long, he'd still have to leave the bloody yard! I bought him from YO 2 years ago and have never regretted it for a moment. He's an absolute poppet - hacks out alone, hunts, team chases etc (I didn't buy him to compete so have been fortunate to end up with a great horse due to being in right place at right time )


Anyway, best of luck with him, he sounds like he's going to be a bit special. Do keep us updated on his progress!


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## Daytona (7 November 2012)

Good luck with him , keep us updated with his progress , it will be interesting to see how he gets on.


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## Goldenstar (7 November 2012)

Patch1234 I have not read the whole thread but just wanted to say I hope he settles soon and you have loads of fun with him, I would love you to post if you feel you can face it and let us know.


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## Debz87 (7 November 2012)

It sounds to me as though your horse is not respecting your space firstly and is being a bit bad mannered, I think handling your horse would be alot safer if you reminded him to keep out of your space.

I'm not suggesting you do anything horrible to him, but when doing his rug up for example, when he comes round to bite or nudge you with his head let him bump into your elbow, eventually your horse should realise its not nice bumping into your elbow!

I wouldn't worry about how your horse behaves on the lunge, some horses really like a buck and a mess about on the lunge, rather that than whilst you are riding, most horses settle down, they just need to get the whizz out of them first, if it's safe I would be inclined to just let them have their funny five then ask them to settle down, most horses will quickly tire anyway and will then focus on what you want them to do.

Hope this helps


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## Gingerwitch (11 November 2012)

see what i mean ?


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## showpony (11 November 2012)

This!!!

OP whats more important  - the sanity of your horse or the rosettes?




littlelegs said:



			Ops horse has gone from nothing, to jumping 4' spreads, xc, & lateral work in the space of 12weeks. Whatever you think about working young horses, that's an awful lot to learn in such a small period. Maybe some horses can cope with that, ops doesn't seem to be one of them. Weaving is a stress behavior, not a quirk. Most newly backed 4yr olds are pretty compliant, they're still finding their feet, so the fact it behaves in ridden work means nothing. Just because its physically managing, doesn't mean it mentally is. And if just put down to being a quirky comp horse, then sooner or later the ridden work will suffer too. If he's aimed at badminton, then why risk all that potential for the sake of having an accomplished 4yr old who isn't mentally mature enough? (not aimed at you op, more those saying its normal comp horse behavior).
		
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## Kallibear (11 November 2012)

Wow, this has exploded since I read it the other day?!?!

Patches1234: I hope you have made some progress so far.

I know others have already said it and you're metioned it as something to look into later but PLEASE get his checked for ulcers. My very very first thought at his behaviour was 'classic ulcer' behaviour.

If he's as athletic and talented as you suggest he will have found everything asked easy, and some horses ENJOY the challange. The speed at which he has been brought on may well have been approproiate for him. 

HOWEVER no horse enjoys being stuck in a stable with no turn out at all for 12 whole weeks, in a new enviroment, doing strange and challanging things with people he doesn't know.. I supect he's found the change in routine, not the work load, extremely stressful and upsetting. Being ridden may well have become the highlight of the day as it gave his mind someone else to think about.  

It's been proven that more than 80% of racehorses have ulcers, due in part to their feeding but mostly their lifestyle (high stress, little turnout, no friends. Your horse, even with adlib hay, is a prime cadidate for ulcers and now he's showing classic behaviour. My very first port of call would be to get him checked out. 

Getting a scope done costs about £100-£150 (depending on your vet). It can be done at home and takes only the length of a sedation. Gastrogaurd is £25 a tube/day and you need a 6 week course to be fully effective: very expensive if not required  But very effective is it is needed and insurance will usually pay for part of it (although many now have it excluded as a specific clause due to it's ridiculous price!)


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## Alyth (11 November 2012)

It's always the best horses that get "overcooked".  They show so much potential and are so keen to comply that the humans push and push and push.  I was guilty of this as well which is how I learned that it was too much for my particular horse.  I should have given her a break BEFORE she "blew".....in her case she started rushing the jumps and it took time out plus re-starting extra slow to get her back on track.   So if I were in your position I would give the horse a good holiday - at least a month, if not 2 - then do some slow fitting work, riding out and about getting him used to different sights and sounds, before re-commencing schooling......if you give him time at this end of his career you will reap the reward with extra years at the other end.....but of course it is totally your decision.....time will tell.  I do hope in 20 years time you are posting about your lovely schoolmaster!!


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## millikins (13 November 2012)

Deleted


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