# Murky world of showing - H&H news article



## maisie2011 (5 March 2012)

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/news/article.php?aid=311668

Scarey to think that a qualified vet could be "duped by &#8220;skilled and practised manipulators&#8221; and not recognise when a horse is presented sedated and /or suffering from dehydration.


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## cefyl (5 March 2012)

maisie2011 said:



			Scarey to think that a qualified vet could be "duped by skilled and practised manipulators and not recognise when a horse is presented sedated and /or suffering from dehydration. 


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Even worse that it happend 19 times !

But people will always find a way around to get horses / ponies measured in.  I remember back in the 1970's a 14.2hh show pony who for years was shown as 14.1 hh (back in the day when heights were in the catalogues).  It then went on the market when the rider was out of ponies for a huge sum, never sold BUT low and behold 2 years later appeared in small hack classes with the same owner / rider now at 14.2 3/4 hh !!!  Did it suddenly grow one and a half inches at 11 years old?   Around the same time two well known large hacks both at 15.2 and a bit in the catalogues did get objections and measured out.  One was 16 hh and the other 16.1 1/2hh.  Oh and a "12.2 hh pony" who had an objection and was "found" to be 13 hh !!!  I do shudder to think just what they did to get these under by so much.  I lost all respect there and then for the owners / producers.


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## Rollin (5 March 2012)

I was an absolute beginner, when we entered our pure-bred CB mare for a HOYS Small Show Hunter Qualifier at the Royal Highland Show.

We boxed her up to Perth to be measured and thought nothing of it.  She was in good condition and 1/10th cm under height.

On the day of the show she looked like a pony in the collecting ring, compared to the other competitors.  After the show I decided to ring SHGB and query the heights, they said ring JMB, who said complain to RHS who said "You should have complained on the day"

During one of these conversations I was told that it was common for horses to be underfed, dehydrated and worked till they dropped before being sent for measurement.

All I can say is our little mare looked tiny compared with the competition.  I don't like to complain if I lose because that might be construed as sour grapes. NOT just fair play.


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## cptrayes (5 March 2012)

maisie2011 said:



http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/news/article.php?aid=311668

Scarey to think that a qualified vet could be "duped by &#8220;skilled and practised manipulators&#8221; and not recognise when a horse is presented sedated and /or suffering from dehydration. 


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If you can tell the difference between a pony/cob that is quiet and laid back or an introvert personality and a pony/cob who has been given sedalin, then you will make one hell of a good vet and you should apply immediately 

The other way to shrink a horse is to leave it in a horse-walker for the whole night before it is measured. Completely undetectable. It's time height certificates were only given once a horse has been at the measuring station, fed, watered and rested for 24 hours.

Nothing else will sort out the scandal of mismeasurement, when a half inch difference in height can make tens of thousands of difference in value.


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## ester (5 March 2012)

and judges maybe not placing the largest horses in the classes and overlooking smaller animals of equal quality. Then those small hunters that aren't actually small could be in the weight classes?


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## jaquelin (5 March 2012)

A very simple solution is obvious - horses measured on the day, and shown in classess accordingly.  I am sure the showing people will think of 1001 reasons why this is "all very difficult" (cue much shaking of heads, sucking of teeth), but this would resolve this.  I am appalled in part at the welfare issues around "shrinking" the horses prior to measurement - hours on horse-walker, dehydrate your horse, shave down its feet - I mean really!!!


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## ester (5 March 2012)

I'm all for a limbo style bar  get under without knocking down on the way into the ring and your in


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## jaquelin (5 March 2012)

Ester - love this! Except my 16h1" 650kg monster could limbo under anything to get at grass, so not sure it would work!


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## cefyl (5 March 2012)

jaquelin said:



			A very simple solution is obvious - horses measured on the day, and shown in classess accordingly.  I am sure the showing people will think of 1001 reasons why this is "all very difficult" (cue much shaking of heads, sucking of teeth), but this would resolve this.  I am appalled in part at the welfare issues around "shrinking" the horses prior to measurement - hours on horse-walker, dehydrate your horse, shave down its feet - I mean really!!!
		
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Many moons ago I remember some of the big shows like the Royal you did have to present your horse on the morning at a measuring box for height check.  Now this is 30 years or more ago and I cannot remember if it was all classes / all horse ponies or a random selection picked out beforehand.  But I do remember being checked at the Royal one year with a full up 15.3hh large hack who was clearly below the height of a couple of others at the same time.  But the owners / producers were faces, not a sausage was said but one was the following year banned for being 2 inches over after someone finally put down the money for a formal objection at the Royal International.


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## MurphysMinder (5 March 2012)

Its not just showing.  We put our 12.3 /13 hh pony on loan to someone who affiliated her to jump BSJA, they informed us it wouldn't be difficult to get her to measure under 12.2 by withholding water etc.  That was until they discovered that said pony grew about a foot if you tried to get anywhere near her with a measuring stick.


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## ester (5 March 2012)

The last larger junior show I attended (I help with some small bsja locally) I was  at the height of a couple of the 14.2s. mind BSJA'd at 147.2 now he may have shrunk a little in his oldish age but that was a huge 0.8cm ...


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## fatpiggy (5 March 2012)

I used to be on a yard that had a WHP that had competed up to HoYs standard and had a lifetime certificate at 15hh.  Yes, he was a different type to mine, very up at the front whereas my girl carried her head low, and yes she had high withers but he TOWERED over her and she was just a smidge under 15.2hh.  I'm afraid as soon as money is involved, the bending of the rules and cheating starts, whatever the sport is.


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## Zebedee (6 March 2012)

The other thing is that is people take a 4yr old to be measured on Jan the 2nd it's a fairly good bet that by July it will have grown. The argument that it was measured when it had just been brought up from the field & not in ring condition means nothing. It should surely be the height that it is presented in the ring that counts - not what it was measuring six months or so prior to that. 
I think any horse presented for an annual height measurement in the first six months of the year that measures within 2cm of the the height limit for their class should have to represent six months later, & any that have gone over height in that time should be bumped up to the next height bracket, & loose any RIHS/HOYS tickets they may have gained. There wouldn't need to be any further action taken - no fines or bannings, afterall horses do grow in the spring, & that's why full height certs aren't issued until the horse is aged 7, & even then it has to have at least one annual before the full certificate is issued.


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## Moomin1 (6 March 2012)

I could fully believe that the very rare few 'dodgy' vets may turn a blind eye (don't know if this has happened in this case).  When I was 12 my parents bought me my first pony, a 14.2 mare from a well known dealer in Wales.  We had five stage vetting, from a 'reliable' well known local vet, who certified the mare at 7 yrs and suitable for a novice child's pony.  

The horse nearly ended up chucking me under an artic lorry and was severly nappy - reared/spun etc etc, even went over backwards with an experienced rider who refused to ever get back on.  

Long story short - the saga went on a year, my family had threats from said dealer - ie will burn house down etc, and all we asked for was money back and horse return.  With further investigation - turns out the horse was in fact barely 4 (yes I was only 12 and my parent's don't have experience with horses) and the vet had been bribed by said dealer who also had a drink problem.


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## rockysmum (6 March 2012)

I came across this when we started showing.

Our pony was old enough for a life height but needed to be measured twice (a year apart) to get one.

The first year I rang my farrier and asked him to remove shoes for her to go for measuring.  I wasn't on the yard when he did it.  I was shocked to find he had taken the shoes off and trimmed her feet so far that he made them bleed.  I rang to complain and he was surprised, it seems that is common practice.

Anyway she measured well under.

Year later I take her again, called at a different farrier for the shoes off, he just took them off and didn't trim.  

The second measurement has to be by a different vet.  This one measured her half an inch bigger than the 1st.  I explained why but he still spent an hour trying to get her down to the height from the year before.  I didn't need him to do that, she was still well under.

So it shows the lengths some people obviously go to for half an inch.  Poor pony was footsore for days after the first time.


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## Moomin1 (6 March 2012)

rockysmum said:



			I came across this when we started showing.

Our pony was old enough for a life height but needed to be measured twice (a year apart) to get one.

The first year I rang my farrier and asked him to remove shoes for her to go for measuring.  I wasn't on the yard when he did it.  I was shocked to find he had taken the shoes off and trimmed her feet so far that he made them bleed.  I rang to complain and he was surprised, it seems that is common practice.

Anyway she measured well under.

Year later I take her again, called at a different farrier for the shoes off, he just took them off and didn't trim.  

The second measurement has to be by a different vet.  This one measured her half an inch bigger than the 1st.  I explained why but he still spent an hour trying to get her down to the height from the year before.  I didn't need him to do that, she was still well under.

So it shows the lengths some people obviously go to for half an inch.  Poor pony was footsore for days after the first time.
		
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That's awful, poor pony!!  

'Fraid to say this is what disgusts me about the showing world - or some aspects of it anyway.  This and the over-rugging syndrome that goes on.  Horses unable to withstand 'normal' temps of 20 degrees without shivering unless they have a rug on because of the way they have been shaped over their showing years.  I know it's not always the case but it sadly does go on.


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## mountainview22 (6 March 2012)

Moomin, will you pm me the dealers name?

Sounds very familiar to a current situation.


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## mountainview22 (6 March 2012)

Did you get my reply moomin? Not sure my pm's work...


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## Moomin1 (6 March 2012)

mountainview22 said:



			Did you get my reply moomin? Not sure my pm's work...
		
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No - try again!


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## mountainview22 (6 March 2012)

Bugger. I don't think they will work... *fecks off to try one last time*


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## mountainview22 (6 March 2012)

Still not got it?

Three times I've tried :/

What area was the dealer from?


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## Moomin1 (7 March 2012)

North Wales.  Not willing to say more really on open forum.  This was many years ago (18 years) and things may be different now.  They are very well known and succesfull in showjumping.


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## brighteyes (7 March 2012)

Our mare has a very odd way of standing and unless you poke her with a stick, relaxes and is easily under 14.2. On red alert, nearly 15 hands. At the 1st measuring the vet could have kept her edgy and measured her out but we weren't angling for either. She is the height she is. Or is she?

Don't get me started on the other 'practises' and overfeeding...it's ALL exploitation of animals for 'show'.  There must be at least a few honest Bobs out there though, surely?


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## PaddyMonty (7 March 2012)

This could all be sorted by having a level base on way in to ring and a laser beam set at the max class height.  Beam touches withers, horse doesn't go in.


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## humblepie (7 March 2012)

I think it is very positive that some societies rules have now changed and if a qualifies for HOYS and then measures out it will lose its qualification.   I have felt for a long time that a horse that measures out should lose its winnings from that year at least.

A few years ago we finished second in a HOYS qualifier.  My OH helped the person throw a rug over the horse in first whilst waiting for its conformation trot up. OH said to me that horse is much bigger than ours.   Didn't think much of it.....however....winning horse subsequently measures out by 5 or 6 cms but keeps all its winnings from that year.


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## lindsayH (7 March 2012)

PaddyMonty said:



			This could all be sorted by having a level base on way in to ring and a laser beam set at the max class height.  Beam touches withers, horse doesn't go in.
		
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I like this! Maybe technology will help us solve the problem one day...

Also agree that the judges could help by placing horses according to merit not height.


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## Ditchjumper2 (7 March 2012)

We were late at arriving at a show and were late to the rings. We were told L/W hunters just going in. So in we went. We won the class and came out. The next class in was....L/W hunters.  We had just won the small hunter class with a 16.2...and he did not look that big compared to them either!


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## Doris68 (7 March 2012)

Ditchjumper - I had a similar experience (also E.Anglia) many years ago with my L/W 16.1 Hunter.  I went to a show and had seen (and admired) the most beautiful small hunter - went over to have a closer look and found it to be much bigger than my L/W.  Judges always said to me that she's a lovely stamp, but what a pity she's not smaller as she'd make a lovely small hunter....!?  Maybe I should've taken the hint and put her in smalls...!?
Also, have seen horses with huge splints win big classes because they've a "name" on board.  I could go on...but I'm sure you've all seen/heard it before.
'Twas ever thus and I doubt it'll change unfortunately.


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## GoesBananas (20 March 2012)

Perhaps judges should stop placing down animals because of their size.

I have a cob and the rules clearly state that they need to be over 148 and no bigger than 155. He is going to be measured today and will be about 150.

Each horse should be judged individually on their conformation and type within this height bracket.

I understand that a bigger horse presented well will have more of a presence as it is physically bigger therefore takes up more of a judge's field of vision. Some of the cobs are clearly more like 15.3hh and it defeats the point of a cob being a small short legged animal that you could put your granny on.

Can't judges look for type and correctness over size???

If a "mini cob" section was introduced I could probably cheat my way into getting him under 148 if I used some of the awful methods mentioned below!


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## Chicodeeb (22 March 2012)

I remember going for a height certificate and the vet asking what height did I want my mare to be! It didn't matter as she was easily half an inch under height for the class she was doing but in the ring she looked like a pony copared to the other horses.


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## Suziq77 (22 March 2012)

Chicodeeb said:



			I remember going for a height certificate and the vet asking what height did I want my mare to be!
		
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They should all ask this as it clarifies the expectation/aim of the person presenting the horse, it doesn't mean that the vet is prepared to cheat (although as the OP's link shows there are some bad eggs).  

Our local JMB vet checks the horses' feet for signs of over trimming before measuring and I am sure would offer water if a horse showed signs of dehyrdation.  They have a lovely quiet pad and allow the full amount of permitted relaxation time.  Not all showing people are bending the rules


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## GoesBananas (5 April 2012)

I had my boy measured last week. At first he was very tense and wondered what was going on and was just over 15.2. once he relaxed he was in fact just over 14.3 - 150.6cms.

If he was measured on the day he'd probably measure out!


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## Lanky Loll (5 April 2012)

Back in the late 70's early 80's there was a horse called Sheila's Pride - I believe she was jumped by Harvey Smith, anyhoo... she was only small for horse classes and obviously struggled to make the distances etc, so she was operated on, (I believe part of her wither was removed), and she was then jumped VERY successfully as a pony... there are definitely worse things that can be done to get a desired measurement than trimming and dehydration, but I agree it still doesn't make them right.


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