# Breeding myths...



## AndyPandy (23 February 2008)

I thought I would post this to debunk some popular breeding myths before we get into the breeding season properly... please feel free to make any additions you like!

*My mare absorbed the embryo*

Sorry, but this one is a myth. Despite the fact that stud vets al over the globe still use the terms "absorb" and "resorb" and "reabsorb", it has been shown that this does not occur. Fluid associated with the embryo is absorbed by the uterus, but the embryo itself is aborted and is ejected through the cervix during the next estrus cycle, as the uterus is simply not capable of breaking down and absorbing embryonic tissue.

*Mares have a 28 day oestrus cycle*

Humans have a 28 day cycle. The typical mares cycle lasts for 21 days, although every mare is different and some mares may have shorter or longer than average cycles.

*Old mares experience menopause*

While it is true that some older mares are less fertile, there is no equine menopause, as such. Some mares may shut down after the age of 20, but this is not a universal occurrence.

*Old mares have old, damaged eggs, and will produce foals with problems such as bad legs, deformities etc.*

Eggs produced by a 20 year old mare, are themselves 20 years old, as each mare is born with a all the eggs they will ever have. These older eggs may not be as viable, and so may be less likely to produce pregnancies. However, DNA is DNA, and the genes in each egg remain unchanged, whatever the age of the mare (and the egg). Environmental factors and mare/stallion genetics cause these problems, not old eggs!

*My mare cannot be successfully bred using AI, and must be covered naturally to become pregnant*

There may be a variety of reasons why this may appear to be the case, but generally it is because the mare has delayed uterine clearance issues. During the teasing stages of natural covering, the mare releases oxytocin which helps to clear the uterus of any post breeding debris and fluid. Exactly the same results can be achieved with judicious use of AI and oxytocin administration.

*Having a mare around a stallion will cause her to go into estrus*

This myth stems from the fact that mares show signs of being in season when they are presented with the required stimulus (i.e. a stallion). Some mares cycle silently, and will only show any sign of being in estrus when a stallion is nearby. Stallion presence does NOT cause estrus.

*My mare had a reaction to the semen extender*

Extender is extremely unlikely to cause a reaction in the uterus of the mare. It is possible however, that if the mare is sensitive to a particular antibiotic, and that antibiotic is present in the extender, that it may cause excessive uterine inflammation. However, blaming the extender for failure to achieve a pregnancy is short-sighted and it is strongly suggested that all the other possibilities are investigated first.


*I drove my mare to the stud and knocked off the follicle!*

No you didnt. Mares continue to show estrus signs for 2-3 days after ovulation in some cases. What probably happened is that the mare was taken to stud after ovulation, but while still showing this post-ovulatory estrus behaviour. It is not physically possible to knock off a follicle  otherwise everyone would drive their mares around in order to perfectly time ovulations.

*X-rays kill sperm when they are scanned in airport security*

There is no research that supports this theory. In fact, studies that have been undertaken show no reduced fertility of sperm exposed to x-rays. 

*Pregnancy rates are higher in the wild than they are managed breeding programmes*

While this may be true in a poorly managed programme, in a well managed programme it is totally false. We manage to breed mares which, in the wild, could not be bred and would be driven out of the herd.

*Wild stallions breed their own daughters, so inbreeding is totally natural*

In New Bolton, Pennsylvania, the equine behaviour centre has studied a feral herd of ponies for over 9 years now. They have never had an inbred foal. When fillies become sexually active, they leave their birth herd, and seek new stallions. Inbreeding is man made, and is likely to be a significant factor in reduced fertility of modern animals.

*It is dangerous for a menstruating woman to be in the presence of a stallion*

There is no reason why this should be the case, and no evidence to support the hypothesis. It is likely to be a relic of the male-dominated breeding set-ups of the late 19th and early 20th century.

*The foals umbilical stump should be treated with iodine after birth*

Iodine has been shown to be far too astringent on neonatal umbilical tissue. It should in fact be treated with a 0.5% chlorohexidine solution, four times a day for the first 3 days after birth.

*Foal heat scours are caused by the mare coming back into estrus*

This was thought to be the case until one farm began worming the mares shortly after birth with an ivermectin based wormer  this almost completely eliminated the scours. It is now thought that the scours are due to the transfer of worm eggs in the mares milk.

I hope you find these interesting. Please let me know if you can think of anymore, or you disagree with any of them


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## Bossanova (23 February 2008)

[ QUOTE ]
*Old mares have old, damaged eggs, and will produce foals with problems such as bad legs, deformities etc.*

Eggs produced by a 20 year old mare, are themselves 20 years old, as each mare is born with a all the eggs they will ever have. These older eggs may not be as viable, and so may be less likely to produce pregnancies. However, DNA is DNA, and the genes in each egg remain unchanged, whatever the age of the mare (and the egg). Environmental factors and mare/stallion genetics cause these problems, not old eggs!


[/ QUOTE ]

I only disagree with this one. DNA suffers damage as time goes on. As egg cells are essentially the same as normal body cells bar the number of chromosomes, their DNA can also be damaged. As the mare gets older the repair mechanism cannot always repair DNA damage sufficiently so mutations can occur. 
Also, as DNA goes through the cycle of damage-repair-damage-reapir, it shortens and if shortended to a significant level, genetic material is lost.


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## Shilasdair (23 February 2008)

[ QUOTE ]

*Foal heat scours are caused by the mare coming back into estrus*

This was thought to be the case until one farm began worming the mares shortly after birth with an ivermectin based wormer  this almost completely eliminated the scours. It is now thought that the scours are due to the transfer of worm eggs in the mares milk.


[/ QUOTE ]

Interesting post, thank you.
I have my doubts regarding the wormer one above, and would like more information (if you have it).  What sort of parasites are involved, and are there any scientific studies to back up the stud's experiences?
S


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## AndyPandy (23 February 2008)

[ QUOTE ]
Eggs produced by a 20 year old mare, are themselves 20 years old, as each mare is born with a all the eggs they will ever have...

I only disagree with this one. DNA suffers damage as time goes on. As egg cells are essentially the same as normal body cells bar the number of chromosomes, their DNA can also be damaged. As the mare gets older the repair mechanism cannot always repair DNA damage sufficiently so mutations can occur. 
Also, as DNA goes through the cycle of damage-repair-damage-reapir, it shortens and if shortended to a significant level, genetic material is lost. 

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, I would agree with your disagreement if oocytes were "normal" cells which underwent mitosis throughout the mares life. However, they do not.

The mare is born with a set number of primary oocytes on each ovary. The primary oocytes remain dormant until they are recruited for maturation (ootidogenesis). They are therefore not under the same aging stresses that normal cells are under (no real metabolic activity, no mitosis, no changes to the DNA). Even when they do mature, their meiosis is halted at metaphase II until fertilisation takes place.

Normal cellular aging does not effect oocytes because there is no telomere shortening, because their is no cellular reproduction. So 20 year old oocytes are not any different to 3 year old oocytes.


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## AndyPandy (23 February 2008)

[ QUOTE ]
Interesting post, thank you.
I have my doubts regarding the wormer one above, and would like more information (if you have it).  What sort of parasites are involved, and are there any scientific studies to back up the stud's experiences?
S 
	
	
		
		
	


	





[/ QUOTE ]

I believe the first study was Ludwig et al, 1984, but many subsequent studies have shown this to be the case. Direct administration of ivermectin to the neonate can cause severe toxicity which can lead to blindness and other complications.

There is still debate over whether the ivermectin prevents transfer of eggs/worms in the milk, or whether is does something else to alter the way the foals gut deals with new pathogens in the first fortnight.

If I find any more info, I will let you know 
	
	
		
		
	


	




 Try it and see what happens though.


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## machannah (23 February 2008)

AP - what wormer do you recommend to stop scouring? My chap didnt have anything last time, so i may have done something right by accident!!


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## KarynK (23 February 2008)

Re what sort of parasites:

I believe that the two species involved in foal scours would be Intestinal Threadworms and Large Roundworms.  But I would put my money on the Threadworms as they are passed through the mares milk and they have a short lifecycle so this is probably the culprit, which would make the ivermectin dose on foaling effective at preventing the scours at a young age along with loss of appetite and dullness. Natural immunity is acquired at around 6 months of age with these beasties so they do not affect juveniles or adults.  

With the Roundworms the eggs have a sticky coating and no matter how clean the stables and equipment the eggs of these little suckers will be there waiting for years, even on the mares udder!!!  And of course when your foal starts eating mas dung to get its bacteria hey presto a perfect oportunity!


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## AndyPandy (23 February 2008)

I would go for Eqvalan. Interestingly enough, Eqvalan was also shown to improve sperm quality in stallions about 20 years ago! It's good stuff 
	
	
		
		
	


	




 (always consult your vet, and the wormer vendor before use etc.)


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## CrazyMare (23 February 2008)

When you say worm on foaling with an ivermectin, what time frame are you looking at? Worming within an hour of foaling? 4-6 hours of foaling?


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## machannah (23 February 2008)

Interesting, I primarily used Eqvalan when I had my ponies etc, and then the market changed and people recommended others so I havent used in a while

I shall go purchase some for my lady and put it my box of important things! Thank you


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## AndyPandy (23 February 2008)

Within 12-18 hours should do it 
	
	
		
		
	


	




 Will double check and post if anyone recommends a different time frame.


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## CrazyMare (23 February 2008)

Thank you. Will buy some for my box!


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## Shilasdair (23 February 2008)

QR
I didn't worm my last foal until she was over one year old...had her worm counted regularly and never found a single egg....especially if we're talking roundworms, and threadworms which show up on faecal worm counts, I believe.
The mare hadn't had any worms for a couple of years...and yes, that foal did scour.
Also - if it is roundworm, etc - why would you use ivermectin as many of the other wormers do not have resistance yet?
I'll look up the studies...thanks for the reference.
S


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## Fahrenheit (23 February 2008)

[ QUOTE ]
 I drove my mare to the stud and knocked off the follicle!

[/ QUOTE ] 

PMSL... sorry... I may have to come back later when I have stopped laughing!...


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## kumala (23 February 2008)

Hi AP, i wonder if you could help me with a possible myth as you are the breeding guru, ET foals are not as good quality as foals that were born by their natural mother? I have seen a conversation on another forum and was hoping this wasn't true as i plan to do it possibly in a few years with my mare!


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## Tia (23 February 2008)

I was advised to worm with Ivermectin within 12 hours of giving birth; which I did and my foals didn't scour.


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## arwenplusone (23 February 2008)

[ QUOTE ]
I was advised to worm with Ivermectin within 12 hours of giving birth; which I did and my foals didn't scour.  
	
	
		
		
	


	





[/ QUOTE ]

I wasn't and so haven't treated any foals/mares in this way.  But last year my filly scoured so badly we had to put her on a drip  
	
	
		
		
	


	




  could have been a bug but I will try the Ivermectin this year and see!  

Thanks AndyPandy - good post


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## AndyPandy (23 February 2008)

[ QUOTE ]
...ET foals are not as good quality as foals that were born by their natural mother? 

[/ QUOTE ]

Right, this is nature versus nurture 
	
	
		
		
	


	





Genetically, an ET foal is no different to a foal from a "natural" birth. So in this respect, ET and natural foals are exactly the same.

Size wise, I think the mare's uterus is 80% responsible for the size of the foal at birth. Then the foal's genetics determine the amount of growth from that point. So theoretically, the ET foal could end up smaller or larger than a natural foal, although in practise I really don't know what the final difference is (if there is any real significant difference at all).

The argument really comes up when we talk about the foal's upbringing. A lot of ET recipients are old TBs who were too slow or too stubborn to race well. Others are unwanted shires. Generally, they are not wanted for whatever reason (generally untalented or lazy etc.). The argument goes that a grade A SJ mare will have a really hard working personality, and that will be a part of her success. So, when she has a foal, she raises that foal to be like herself... she passes on her personality (to an extent) through nurture. 

Now, imagine that particular foal was flushed and transferred to a TB who was pulled from racing at 4. She's been stuck in fields, being a mum/herd animal for a couple of years. She's dosile, a bit simple, and very polite. The foal then, might become lazy, thick and naughty (because mum is too nice to tell foalie off). There-in lies your difference...

Now, I don't know whether or not these foals will have the same potential. It could quite easily work the other way, where the recipient nurtures the foal to be BETTER than if he was raised by his natural mother. No-one really knows.

There was an instance of a cloned pair of mules racing, and they hoped for a dead heat. One came 3rd, the other 7th... due to nurture and training. Who knows which had more of an influence.

In my opinion, nurture is not that strong, especially as we take the foals away from the mothers at 4-6months of age, and then they have several years of human nurturing before competing etc. At the end of the day, the genetics are the same, and genetics are the most major player in what people and animals are able to do.

Sorry if that was a little garbled


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## AndyPandy (23 February 2008)

[ QUOTE ]
I was advised to worm with Ivermectin within 12 hours of giving birth; which I did and my foals didn't scour.  
	
	
		
		
	


	





[/ QUOTE ]

THANKS TIA! 
	
	
		
		
	


	













So glad someone has used ivermectin and had good results - within 12 hours it is then


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## SpottedCat (23 February 2008)

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Eggs produced by a 20 year old mare, are themselves 20 years old, as each mare is born with a all the eggs they will ever have...

I only disagree with this one. DNA suffers damage as time goes on. As egg cells are essentially the same as normal body cells bar the number of chromosomes, their DNA can also be damaged. As the mare gets older the repair mechanism cannot always repair DNA damage sufficiently so mutations can occur. 
Also, as DNA goes through the cycle of damage-repair-damage-reapir, it shortens and if shortended to a significant level, genetic material is lost. 

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, I would agree with your disagreement if oocytes were "normal" cells which underwent mitosis throughout the mares life. However, they do not.

The mare is born with a set number of primary oocytes on each ovary. The primary oocytes remain dormant until they are recruited for maturation (ootidogenesis). They are therefore not under the same aging stresses that normal cells are under (no real metabolic activity, no mitosis, no changes to the DNA). Even when they do mature, their meiosis is halted at metaphase II until fertilisation takes place.

Normal cellular aging does not effect oocytes because there is no telomere shortening, because their is no cellular reproduction. So 20 year old oocytes are not any different to 3 year old oocytes. 

[/ QUOTE ]

I know nothing about equine breeding, but a bit about biology - are horses not subject to the same age-related genetic problems humans are? Thinking of such things as the increased risk of Down's Syndrome as women get pregnant later in life etc?

As I say, I know very little about breeding, have no intention of doing any and am just curious as I have an interest in biology.


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## AndyPandy (23 February 2008)

[ QUOTE ]
I know nothing about equine breeding, but a bit about biology - are horses not subject to the same age-related genetic problems humans are? Thinking of such things as the increased risk of Down's Syndrome as women get pregnant later in life etc?

[/ QUOTE ]

The most recent research has shown that Downs syndrome is due to a random event during the formation of sex cells or pregnancy.
So, either, a dodgy egg is released, or something happens in the oviduct on fertilisation.

My theory of Downs syndrome is as follows:
Women are also born with all the eggs they will ever have. Now say, just for the sake of argument, they have 480 eggs. Only one of those 480 eggs is capable of producing a Downs syndrome child. So, the chance of that Downs egg getting randomly ovulated during the first 20 years (after puberty) are fairly small, but as they woman ages, the chance of this egg being ovulated get higher, and higher, and after 40 years (if you're a super-menopause-avoiding-woman 
	
	
		
		
	


	




) then, the only egg left will be that Downs egg. So the probability there is 100% of getting a Downs syndrome baby.

These eggs are not damaged by age, they have always been damaged, and were made that way while that woman was still in her mother's uterus!

So, even that case does not say anything about "old eggs", just about the chance of a dodgy egg being ovulated as you get older.

Does that sound about right?


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## SpottedCat (23 February 2008)

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I know nothing about equine breeding, but a bit about biology - are horses not subject to the same age-related genetic problems humans are? Thinking of such things as the increased risk of Down's Syndrome as women get pregnant later in life etc?

[/ QUOTE ]

The most recent research has shown that Downs syndrome is due to a random event during the formation of sex cells or pregnancy.
So, either, a dodgy egg is released, or something happens in the oviduct on fertilisation.

My theory of Downs syndrome is as follows:
Women are also born with all the eggs they will ever have. Now say, just for the sake of argument, they have 480 eggs. Only one of those 480 eggs is capable of producing a Downs syndrome child. So, the chance of that Downs egg getting randomly ovulated during the first 20 years (after puberty) are fairly small, but as they woman ages, the chance of this egg being ovulated get higher, and higher, and after 40 years (if you're a super-menopause-avoiding-woman 
	
	
		
		
	


	




) then, the only egg left will be that Downs egg. So the probability there is 100% of getting a Downs syndrome baby.

These eggs are not damaged by age, they have always been damaged, and were made that way while that woman was still in her mother's uterus!

So, even that case does not say anything about "old eggs", just about the chance of a dodgy egg being ovulated as you get older.

Does that sound about right? 

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok, I hadn't seen any latest research as I have very little to do with 'pure' biology these days (but if you need any bats counted, badgers spotted or reptiles moved, I'm your girl  
	
	
		
		
	


	




 )

That does make sense from a statistical point of view, and also makes more sense from a biological point of view as (as you previously stated) the oocytes don't go through the same sort of cellular regeneration as other cells (if I remember correctly from that bit of uni!).

So theoretically the same could be true for equines - it's a myth that 'old eggs' cause a problem, but a fact that the older the mare, the more likely that an egg will be released which has a problem, assuming it has not been released earlier in life. Because it is less common for a mare (or human) to have their first offspring at an older age, the prevelance of so called 'age-related' issues is higher than in younger mares/humans, who are more likely to have been retired from breeding once the required number of offspring (more human than horse!!) has been achieved. I think I know what I am trying to say....


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## springfallstud (23 February 2008)

Very good post AP

Where can you get chlorohexidine solution from? Vet/Chemist?

Will def try the wormer 
	
	
		
		
	


	





As we are asking some questions here can i ask where would you recommend buying some colostrum in from for just incase, i've seen some on Ebay!!!!! what are your views on giving this to new foals http://www.petmeds.co.uk/p-3366-foalstim-foal-probiotic-colostrum.aspx


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## AndyPandy (23 February 2008)

Not sure about that particular product, but I've heard relatively good things about:

http://www.farmrite.co.uk/product.ds2?p=106083

And "Hibitane" is the ideal product, although some versions are concentrated so you may have to dilute it to 0.5% CHX.

http://www.medisave.co.uk/hibitane-concentrate-litre-bottle-p-1859.html

Good luck - let us know how the ivermectin works out


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## christine48 (23 February 2008)

[ QUOTE ]
Hi AP, i wonder if you could help me with a possible myth as you are the breeding guru, ET foals are not as good quality as foals that were born by their natural mother? I have seen a conversation on another forum and was hoping this wasn't true as i plan to do it possibly in a few years with my mare! 

[/ QUOTE ]
I wonder about this question as my foals all have behavioural traits like their dam. If they were ET foals would they have the behavioural traits of the recipient mare?


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## christine48 (23 February 2008)

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Hi AP, i wonder if you could help me with a possible myth as you are the breeding guru, ET foals are not as good quality as foals that were born by their natural mother? I have seen a conversation on another forum and was hoping this wasn't true as i plan to do it possibly in a few years with my mare! 

[/ QUOTE ]
I wonder about this question as my foals all have behavioural traits like their dam. If they were ET foals would they have the behavioural traits of the recipient mare? 

[/ QUOTE ]
Sorry just looked back and noticed Andy Pandy has already answered this one


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## nikkiportia (23 February 2008)

I've been led to believe that although the eggs of an older mare may be perfectly viable, it's the uterus that causes poor foals in older mares.  If I remember rightly the placenta doesn't receive as much blood supply due to cysts and breaking down with age of the uterus wall. Is this correct?


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## henryhorn (23 February 2008)

Yay! A good and informative post which all of us can learn from.
I don't profess to be an expert and am always happy for posts like this to be put up, last year taught me a lot with losing one foal and almost another to that ecoli bug, and I had no idea that a test was available which might have helped us avoid it. 
I think there is room for all of us on here, the professionals who do a marvellous job, the people like us who enjoy breeding but don't devote their lives to it, and the amateur who wants to reproduce their own stock having been thrilled with their mare and want another.
Years ago you just took your mare to the stud, they tried her until they felt she was ready and covered her, waited until a season had been missed and collected her hopefully in foal. there were no tests to prove it, no AI, no scanning etc and twins were a common problem.
We can now scan to see what the situation is with the reprocutive cycle, adjust it if necessary, scan again to see exactly when to cover, and do the deed knowing you couldn't have planned it better!  We have scanned again to check the results and tweaked a twin on occasions too. (our vet not us)
So a lot more help is available and with the expertise available with AI the majority of mares can be successfully bred from.
I think there is room for a middle ground so it doesn't have to be quite so technical (obviously with expensive stock managing it as above has to be done) , we cover according to the stallion's signal's and only resort to help if the mare doesn't catch first go. It's reassurring to know we can have help though, and it is a massive benefit to owners because your mare can be there, covered, scanned and home again saving keep fees.
Please keep posting info A-P, I for one would welcome some more info about testing the mare /foal after foaling, I read a little about it but not enough. 
We are having a quiet foaling year this time but will be covering our usual mares again this time, hopefully we can get slightly earlier dates, though the weather here means no way can you foal outside prior to early May..


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## AndyPandy (23 February 2008)

I think it's probably delayed uterine clearance, reduced uterine tone, reduced immune response, possible interference from cysts, poorer blood supply, poorer cervical integrity, possible fibrosis from infections and a number of other age-associated problems 
	
	
		
		
	


	





But yes, older mares can be problematic, but not because of their "old eggs"!


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## KarynK (23 February 2008)

I had the privilege many years ago to have Twink Allen teach me on a breeding course at the National Stud.   

He came and collected us and took us on a tour of the Fertility Unit.  Those of that have met him will know his sense of humour!  He had a game with us on Whats That!   One of the Whats thats was a 13.2 hh small fine stallion, I guessed show pony, but it was a TB.  

His mother had received damage due to a prior foaling and had become infertile.  Twink got her in foal but the result was tiny due to lack of sufficient nutrition during the pregnancy, a result of the damage&gt;  But as he demonstrated to us, he had us collecting!!! He was ideal to collect semen from easy to handle and threw full sized foals!!!


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## AJBliss (23 February 2008)

I think with size in ET offspring, there should actually be some credit given to the recipient mare.  I recall reading about the Smart Little Lena clones at Texas A&amp;M University, one of which has matured to 16.1hh, the smallest being 14.2hh with precisely the same genetics, but very different placental area and vascularity on the part of the recipient mare!  Smart Little Lena himself was, I believe only 14hh tall.


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## KarynK (23 February 2008)

Twink Allen told us of his research on my course in the 1990's, he showed that identical twin's born of different mares reached different heights at maturity, he concluded that genetics may dictate adult height but a far greater influence was due to the available room for growth in the uterus and that this early disadvantage was not recovered in post parturition growth.    We were lucky enough to be able to see the mature identical twins and there was a hand difference in mature height from the foal of the 16hh+ mare and that which was birthed by the pony.


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## AndyPandy (23 February 2008)

I guess the "size is 80% dictated by mare size, 20% by genetics" is pretty true then!


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## alleycat (23 February 2008)

[ QUOTE ]


My theory of Downs syndrome is as follows:
Women are also born with all the eggs they will ever have. Now say, just for the sake of argument, they have 480 eggs. Only one of those 480 eggs is capable of producing a Downs syndrome child. So, the chance of that Downs egg getting randomly ovulated during the first 20 years (after puberty) are fairly small, but as they woman ages, the chance of this egg being ovulated get higher, and higher, and after 40 years (if you're a super-menopause-avoiding-woman 
	
	
		
		
	


	




) then, the only egg left will be that Downs egg. So the probability there is 100% of getting a Downs syndrome baby. 

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't see how this holds up statistically: 

If the Downs Syndrome egg were to be just a random event the chance of it being ovulated at any time would be the same for Super Menopause Avoider as for Schoolgirl Mother. 

For it to work as you've described, something would have to delay the use of the Downs Syndrome egg, so that it kept not getting chosen until the very end, like the unpopular child at school when the games teachers' pets were choosing sports teams... 

Of course, the more babies a woman has the more chance she has of "picking" that egg, but without some other mechanism at work that egg could be picked as often in a young woman's pregnancy as an older woman's; but older women do seem more at risk of having Downs Syndrome children than younger women. In fact more Downs Syndrome kids would be born to younger women than older ones, in terms of actual numbers since more young women have babies.

So even if this isn't due to damage as a result of having been around a long time (and could not damage occur from being "in Storage?" after all, the cell has to stay alive, and from what you say doesn't have the chance to mend itself) - there has to be some sort of mechanism to explain the statistics; maybe the eggs were the first ones formed before Super Menopause Avoider really got her eye in, and are now reappearring from the back of the queue? Or perhaps faulty eggs are somehow slow in coming forward and get left until last? If there is some such mechanism, I suppose it could exist in horses too?

Really useful and interesting post.

Perhaps you could also clarify what brings a mare into season? I know day length is involved, but mine do seem to go on &amp; off with the weather, and cycle oddly in some years.


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## JanetGeorge (23 February 2008)

[ QUOTE ]

I wonder about this question as my foals all have behavioural traits like their dam. If they were ET foals would they have the behavioural traits of the recipient mare? 

[/ QUOTE ]

Mmm - interesting question.  You;re looking at two things where behaviour is concerned - the basic genetic temperament (flighty, laidback, stubborn etc) from the original mare, and then learned behaviour which comes not JUST from the mare that raises the foal - but also the mares and foals (if any) that the foal runs with during those first few formative months.

I have an old RID mare who is wonderfully laidback (to the point of being comatose!)  ANY 3 week old foal can push her off her haylage - she is bottom of the pecking order in any herd!  The first year I had her she was the only mare I had with a foal - and that foal is the most obnoxious filly on four legs!!  Good with people - but DREADFUL with other horses.  She is Alpha mare with a capital A!  The mare has had 4 foals since - admittedly by a different stallion - and all 4 are as sweet as pie - with people and other horses - because they were raised with other mares and foals who put them in their place!

Generally I've found that bossy mares have bossy foals.

I DID notice one interesting thing with one mare this year.  She'd had 2 fillies - and was a rgeat, attentive Mum who was besotted with her foals.  Last year she had a colt.  She started off besotted with him - but by the time he was 3 months old she was being VERY 'strict' with him - he wasn't allowed to share her haylage (although she'd share with another mare and HER foal!)  He is now the best mannered colt of that year - it was as if she KNEW he would need extra discipline!


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## ihatework (23 February 2008)

I think, and correct me if I'm wrong AP, that what was being said is something along the following lines.
Say (as AP gave as an example) that a female has 480 eggs, of these 1 of these is genetically faulty.
When the female is sexually mature and starts ovulating there is a 1-480 chance of the dodgy egg being fertilised.
Now assume 1 egg a month is released. 12 eggs a year (for arguments sake) and therefore 20 years down the line a total of 240 eggs. This elderly female would now have a 1-240 chance of fertilising the dodgy egg (if it hadn't already been released) - so double the chance.

PS - AP, great thread


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## machannah (23 February 2008)

Regarding "faulty" eggs, is it the case that eggs are released randomly, or the stronger ones take precidence over the lessers?


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## ihatework (23 February 2008)

Haven't the foggiest  
	
	
		
		
	


	




 I would guess randomly


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## AndyPandy (23 February 2008)

[ QUOTE ]
I don't see how this holds up statistically: 

If the Downs Syndrome egg were to be just a random event the chance of it being ovulated at any time would be the same for Super Menopause Avoider as for Schoolgirl Mother. 


[/ QUOTE ]

So you're saying, if I had a huge bag with 3000 white balls, and one red ball, all the same weight, size and texture, and I picked a random ball, I would have just as much chance of picking the red ball here, as if I had a bag with 2 white balls and one red ball?

I don't think so 
	
	
		
		
	


	





In the first instance, my chance is 1 in 3001, in the second instance, my chance is 1 in 3!!! If, in the first instance, I keep picking out balls, for every white ball I pick out, the chance of picking the red ball increases. Hope that makes sense (I'm assuming the red ball is equivalent to the Downs oocyte)


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## AndyPandy (23 February 2008)

Yes, it's random. If there was a mechanism in the ovary for picking the "strongest oocyte" (a sort of blueprint reader that can tell which egg has good DNA and which egg has bad DNA), then there would be far less requirement for natural selection/evolution, and we would have very few, if any birth problems or genetic diseases


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## AndyPandy (23 February 2008)

[ QUOTE ]
Perhaps you could also clarify what brings a mare into season? I know day length is involved, but mine do seem to go on &amp; off with the weather, and cycle oddly in some years. 

[/ QUOTE ]

Day length is involved, yes. It's basically decreasing hours of darkness, and increasing average temperature.

During the transitional periods, follicles begin to mature but do not ovulate. This allows for extended periods of estrogen elevation, which is natures own spring cleaning process (it raises immunity in the uterus for long period of time, preparing it to carry a foal).

After continued increases in daylight, and temperature, mares begin to cycle fully. Of course, periods of bad weather (where it gets colder/darker) can disturb cycling and make cycles irregular.

Irregular cycles can also be due to uterine infection/irritation which causes v long or short cycles to occur dependant on the exact nature of the problem.

There are probably other players, but we do not know the details yet


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## alleycat (23 February 2008)

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I don't see how this holds up statistically: 

If the Downs Syndrome egg were to be just a random event the chance of it being ovulated at any time would be the same for Super Menopause Avoider as for Schoolgirl Mother. 


[/ QUOTE ]

So you're saying, if I had a huge bag with 3000 white balls, and one red ball, all the same weight, size and texture, and I picked a random ball, I would have just as much chance of picking the red ball here, as if I had a bag with 2 white balls and one red ball?

I don't think so 
	
	
		
		
	


	





In the first instance, my chance is 1 in 3001, in the second instance, my chance is 1 in 3!!! If, in the first instance, I keep picking out balls, for every white ball I pick out, the chance of picking the red ball increases. Hope that makes sense (I'm assuming the red ball is equivalent to the Downs oocyte) 
	
	
		
		
	


	





[/ QUOTE ]

This is true if the red ball isn't picked until you reach the last 3. But for every time this happens, for this to represent the true range of statistical chances, there would have to be 3001-3 other bags in which the red ball is removed first, 2nd., 3rd., 4th., etc. In these bags, the chance of the red ball being part of a 1 in 3 chance are: zero! 

Another way of putting it is that every ball, at the beginning of the process, has a 3001 chance of being picked at the beginning and a 1 in 3 chance of being picked IF it makes the last 3. What you can't say is whether any particular ball will make the last 3...

Basically, you have assumed the red ball is going to be one of the last left. Real life bears this out with Downs Syndrome. Question is, why THAT egg and not one of the others? This suggests to me a mechanism which either makes the last eggs faulty, or keeps the faulty eggs until last.


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## alleycat (23 February 2008)

Thanks..  AND another question... is the one about a mare conceiving more readily if she is in rising condition (rather than poor, fat or a level plateau of good condition) likely to be true?

Thanks again in anticipation...


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## MissIndependance (23 February 2008)

Excellent  post  the only one I was surprised at/hadnt heard before wa the last one re worming We havent had any problems with scouring foals previously but I think I will add ivermectin to my foaling kits now as a precaution
Interesting re the iodine  we used Iodine last year on vets adviceBut they did also say the blue spray which you use to treat thrushy issues in hooves was just as goodis that the same stuff you mentioned? I cant remember the long name!
Karynk thats really interesting about the little TB stallion.
The Downs Syndrome theory statistically makes a lot of sense, and is something Id never considered before, but its certainly an interesting thought  From how I interpret APs post hes saying that although of course the red ball could be picked each time, that every time it is not randomly picked/released that the next time the odds increase.
Ie start off with 4 balls, one of which is red and the first time you randomly pick a ball it is a 1 in 4 chance, but the subsequent times the odds that you pick that red ball (assuming it isnt released first of course) increase, ie 1 in 3, and  then 1 in 2 until you are 100% certain to get it
Great to see a thread which has got everyone thinking!


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## AndyPandy (23 February 2008)

Let me try again... my analogy might not be that great, but I want to try to say where I'm coming from.

Let's say, at age 14, a girl starts menstruating, and cycles every month until she is 54. She has 480 eggs, and one of those has an extra chromosome, and so, if fertilised will create a downs syndrome baby.

For her first ovulation, the chance of that downs egg being ovulated is 1 in 480 (0.208%). Now, of course, because it is totally random, that downs syndrome egg could be ovulated first time, but it is unlikely that it will be.

So lets assume, for 10 years, that downs egg isn't ovulated.
Now we have 360 eggs left, and the chance of the downs egg being ovulated is 1 in 360 (0.278%), because those are the only eggs now available for ovulation.

At age 44, she only has 120 eggs left, so IF she still hasn't ovulated that downs egg, it's now a 1 in 120 chance (0.833%).

At age 50, she has 48 eggs left! So if that downs syndrome egg is still there, the chance of it ovulating is now 2.08%. And at age 53, if she still has that downs egg, the chance of it being ovulated is 8.33%, so the chance has rocketed up in those last few years.

Now look at the way my description matches up to the risk of a downs baby increasing with age here: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c3/Trisomy21_graph.jpg

I think it fits very nicely. I just don't understand why you don't like my stats on this one 
	
	
		
		
	


	




 If you can make it clearer for me, that would be great. Cheers


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## AndyPandy (23 February 2008)

[ QUOTE ]
Thanks..  AND another question... is the one about a mare conceiving more readily if she is in rising condition (rather than poor, fat or a level plateau of good condition) likely to be true?

[/ QUOTE ]

It is indeed true for some mares - a rising plain of nutrition and body condition may be beneficial, however, using the body condition scoring index, a minimum of 5 and a maximum of 7 is desirable, and the rising plain is unlikely to make a big difference.


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## alleycat (23 February 2008)

I can see where you are coming from;and your maths is right: but it seems to me  that though this is true of this one egg, it is also equally true for every other egg. 

ANY egg that isn't selected (?) at any given ovulation has an increased chance of being picked next time. 

My brain is spinning now. I shall go and follow up your link and try to get my head round it, and come back to you when I've thought it over.

Er....Anyone got 3000 white ping pong balls &amp; one red one that I can borrow?


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## AndyPandy (23 February 2008)

I think the reason it works for me is that, yes any other egg could be picked, so the chance of any particular egg being ovulated is essentially the same. However, for the purposes of this discussion, every egg except the downs egg has the same property (that of being "normal"), whereas the downs egg is unique as it is the only one that carries the extra chromosome. So the chance of ovulation of a normal egg is always higher than a downs egg, because there are more of them 
	
	
		
		
	


	





It's confusing, especially when you factor in that a woman is actually born with 2 million oocytes, and only 400,000 of them will ever mature to any degree, and 1000 oocytes are destroyed with every cycle... Aaaaargh! But I'm pretty sure the numbers still work, roughly.

My numbers match up to the graph better if you assume that only 1 in every 2 women has a single downs oocyte 
	
	
		
		
	


	













MIND BOGGLING!


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## AJBliss (23 February 2008)

Isn't there some effect of a mare's age upon early embryonic development?  I don't know that it would have an effect upon the resultant foal when all is said and done, but there was a significant developmental delay whilst the embryo was still within the oviduct.  Also, when embryos from old mares (&gt;/= 20yrs) were flushed and transferred to young (6-10yrs) recipients, only 31%  (8/26) resulted in embryonic vessicles, whereas 92% (11/12) of embryos transferred from young mares resulted in embryonic vessicles.  The conclusion would be that the subfertility noted in older mares could be due to the oocytes themselves, rather than solely the "environment" of the older mare.  This was a study done waaay back in 1995 by Carnevale &amp; Ginther ... has there been much done recently?  I would be interested to hear anyone's thoughts!


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## PapaFrita (23 February 2008)

Thanks for that AP 
	
	
		
		
	


	




 Very interesting.


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## AndyPandy (23 February 2008)

Older mares are more likely to have delayed uterine clearance issues. Embryos are flushed from the uterus. If these older mares were not given aggressive oxytocin therapy, then once the embryo dropped into the uterus, it will have been exposed to potentially unpleasant fluid in the uterus. This fluid is pretty likely to damage the embryo, as well as prevent fixation of the conceptus if it wasn't flushed.

In my opinion, it is probably the uterine-fluid-related-damage to the embryos from these older mares that caused the lower success rate. Unless the paper says that they did use oxytocin and that all the mares were cultured before they work was done.


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## AJBliss (23 February 2008)

Whoops!  What you say makes sense.  I think I misread my notes!  Carnevale's subsequent study in 1995 after the one I mentioned (which was from 1993, not 1995!) actually collected oocytes from preovulatory follicles and transferred them into young, inseminated recipient mares.  Guess I should re-read the whole thing.  Thanks for letting me geek it up science-style and ask questions on this thread!


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## alleycat (23 February 2008)

I think you've persuaded me AP, with that last post; I think I'm wrong here...

Very patiently explained; and if you've thought that out yourself, I hope you've published it. 
	
	
		
		
	


	





So, to change tack a bit, if a (human) female's oocytes don't all mature, does she jettison them at menopause, or are they still available but unused? If so is immaturity a problem? Could a post menopausal woman be an egg donor? (A friend of mine was lamenting the fact that she had never done this. Felt it was Flying in the Face of Nature at the time, but has modified her views; too late).


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## AndyPandy (23 February 2008)

I did think it out myself, but I'm sure other people have as well, so I won't be publishing it! 
	
	
		
		
	


	




 Anyway, I'm more of an equine repro man than a human repro man. I'm really not sure if a post menopausal woman could be a donor. The problem is that primary oocytes must mature to become secondary oocytes before they have a follicle around then and can be ovulated. I guess, theoretically it would be possible to take an ovaian biopsy (OUCH!) and mature primary oocytes in vitro, however, I imagine that would be extremely time consuming, expensive and painful for the donor. 

Also, I don't know if primary oocytes remain viable after the hormonal changes associated with menopause.


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## alleycat (23 February 2008)

Thanks yet again AP- excellent post!


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## AndyPandy (23 February 2008)

No worries. Thank you for adding to the discussion - I was just thinking how excellent this thread is, because people are actually discussing stuff in depth and bringing new ideas to the table 
	
	
		
		
	


	




 Thanks for the nice comments too, very much appreciated.


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## Fahrenheit (24 February 2008)

I have enjoyed this thread... I have found very informative! I love the bit about the 3000 balls, a great way to explain things!! 

I have however been unable to contibrute to the thread on a sensible level because I am still finding myself highly amused that anyone would think...

[ QUOTE ]
*I drove my mare to the stud and knocked off the follicle!*

[/ QUOTE ]

This comment has given me the giggles, everytime I have read it!!  
	
	
		
		
	


	





**HG goes back to the naughty corner... until she can control herself**


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## lisaward (24 February 2008)

great thread very interesting


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## DAHH (24 February 2008)

[ QUOTE ]
.....he concluded that genetics may dictate adult height but a far greater influence was due to the available room for growth in the uterus and that this early disadvantage was not recovered in post parturition growth.    

[/ QUOTE ]

From my own experience I would have to disagree. I think genetics play a much bigger role. I have a 15h2 mare who produces tiny foals. She looks huge when pregnant but gives then no room and evidently keeps all the goodness from feed for herself and passes very little to her foal (this is also highlighted by the fact that she still looks pregnant for months after the birth 
	
	
		
		
	


	




)
However her offspring always make up for the slow start. For example the 2 year old colt out of her (and by a 16h2 stallion) was tiny and very weak when born but he is now the biggest 2 year old I have, currently standing at 16h.
Of course I may change my mind in the future as last year I had a foal born to a 17 year old 16h2 mare (by a 17h2 stallion) whos uterus didn't expand enough. The result was a foal the same size as my springer spaniel, only with longer legs! He is still small for his age and I will let you know in a couple of years if I have changed my mind.....


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## htobago (24 February 2008)

Just wanted to say great thread, AP - I seem to learn something new and important every time you post on here!


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## htobago (24 February 2008)

[ QUOTE ]
I have enjoyed this thread... I have found very informative! I love the bit about the 3000 balls, a great way to explain things!! 

I have however been unable to contibrute to the thread on a sensible level because I am still finding myself highly amused that anyone would think...

[ QUOTE ]
*I drove my mare to the stud and knocked off the follicle!*

[/ QUOTE ]

This comment has given me the giggles, everytime I have read it!!  
	
	
		
		
	


	





**HG goes back to the naughty corner... until she can control herself** 

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL - I'd better join you in the naughty corner HG, cos I'm still giggling at this as well!


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## Tia (24 February 2008)

[ QUOTE ]
Just wanted to say great thread, AP - I seem to learn something new and important every time you post on here! 
	
	
		
		
	


	





[/ QUOTE ]
I completely agree with this.  How lucky are we all to have someone with such a wealth of knowledge on the horse breeding front.  It's perfectly acceptable to having differing opinions or trying to make sense of something where the answer alludes you, but to have someone here who knows these answers surely means that we are all pretty privileged and should be thankful to have our very own guru?

Andy writes in a very clear and concise manner - because of this, I find it makes his posts very easy to follow and understand.  If anyone doesn't understand something then they simply need to ask him to explain further and I am sure that Andy would be more than happy to break it down.

Please don't discourage these clever bods from coming on here because many of us do appreciate them and would miss out on valuable new knowledge if they were to stop contributing to this site.


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## Fahrenheit (24 February 2008)

Well said Tia


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## AndyPandy (24 February 2008)

Thank you Tia


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## Gamgee (24 February 2008)

Hi.  I'm usually a luker, having been scared off in other parts of this forum, but I had to say that this thread contains some excellent information.  Thank you very much AndyPandy!  Though I am confused as to why there is the potential for you may have been discouraged?  I don't expect an answer, as a relative small fry on here, but could not resist adding my thoughts.  I hope that is not out of line for me to do so.


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## Fahrenheit (24 February 2008)

Its only that some people don't like the fact that AP has a higher level of vocabulary than others and express their views that he isn't a very good teacher etc etc... but as he isn't a teacher, it doesn't really matter... also AP isn't the sort of person to be so easily discouraged, he is very passionate about his work and a very good source of information and very easy to talk to  
	
	
		
		
	


	





Welcome to the forum btw


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## S_N (24 February 2008)

Just thought of one (inspired by a post elsewhere 
	
	
		
		
	


	




  I'm such a theaf 
	
	
		
		
	


	




 )

Maiden mares tend to foal before 340 days - true or false?  I know this is kind of tied into the due date thingy, but also it isn't....  IME it can go either way (obviously), I've just never kept records of these things.... I should have done with all my foalings.  Though I am inclined to think it may well be true.....?


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## Fahrenheit (25 February 2008)

[ QUOTE ]
the due date thingy

[/ QUOTE ]

ETA... ETA... *giggles*


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## Damien (25 February 2008)

choosing not to worm any animal during the first year of its life is putting an aninmals health at high risk if you ask me,  





 especially youngstock.  
	
	
		
		
	


	





Faecal counts will not reveal encysted worm burden or tape burden, only blood testing can reveal the level of encysted worm and tape.

Careful managment of the mare pre-foaling with a chemical group that treats for threadworm and roundworm large and small will radically reduce scouring, backed up with worming the foal with an ivermectin based wormer within 24/48 hours of birth for good measure.

Like many I had always believed that scouring just co-incided with mares foalie heat but research has shown that it is most likely caused by thread worm. Having now opted for a pre-foaling worm program we have totally erradicated scouring of foals the last two years - yahay no more vaseline and struggling foals! just try it! 

I'm pretty sure that I also read a report somewhere that foals can be born with pre-existing worm burdens, as eggs can migrate to un unborn foal through the placenta within the mare, another reason for possible scouring. 

Its always worth while using equest or a five day panacur gaurd treatment pre-foaling say in february to erradicate any encysted worm burden that the mare may carry. Panacur 5 day gaurd and equest being the only two wormers availible in the uk that can be safely used on pregnant mares that treat successfully without resistance for encysted worm and early larval stages of cyathathomes. 

As Equest is not licensed to be given to lactating mares you will not be presented with the opportunity to do so again until your foal has been weaned so be sure the mare is treated. If the mare has not been previously treated with equest or panacur gaurd in the last 12 months then its perhaps safer to use panacur 5 day gaurd as side efffects have been noted in horses with an encysted worm burden caused by the migration of the worms leaving the gut, symptoms such as skin irriations, colic, scouring etc.

This treatment should then be followed post foaling with a wormer such as equimax that contains the chemical group that eliminates tape and all other known species (with the exception of encysted round worm) six weeks after your encysted worm treatment. 

For mares and foals all ivermectin based wormers that can be used safely to treat mares and foals every six weeks throughout the grazing period is Bimectin as it comes in an 800g tube to treat both mare and foal seperately. However it is advisable to switch to a second chemical group wormer in year two as is found in strongid.

General rule of thumb for us, is early spring and autum (after weaning) treat mare with equest, followed by equimax six weeks later, worming throughout summer with an ivermectin based wormer of mare and foal every six weeks and you can't go wrong.


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## ColouredFan (25 February 2008)

so much great info on here, excellent post Andy Pandy.

Just wondered if anyone had any thoughts on a mares first foal being smaller to any subsequent foals? Just something i had heard but I dont know if it is actually true?

Thanks in advance


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## Shilasdair (25 February 2008)

[ QUOTE ]
choosing not to worm any animal during the first year of its life is putting an aninmals health at high risk if you ask me,  





 especially youngstock.  
	
	
		
		
	


	





 <font color="blue">That's me - I embrace risk.   
	
	
		
		
	


	




  </font> 

Faecal counts will not reveal encysted worm burden or tape burden, only blood testing can reveal the level of encysted worm and tape.
 <font color="blue"> True </font> 

Careful managment of the mare pre-foaling with a chemical group that treats for threadworm and roundworm large and small will radically reduce scouring, backed up with worming the foal with an ivermectin based wormer within 24/48 hours of birth for good measure.
 <font color="blue"> Management for parasites does not equate directly with worming. </font> 
Like many I had always believed that scouring just co-incided with mares foalie heat but research has shown that it is most likely caused by thread worm. Having now opted for a pre-foaling worm program we have totally erradicated scouring of foals the last two years - yahay no more vaseline and struggling foals! just try it! 
 <font color="blue">I thought everybody always had wormed and/or managed their broodmares pre-foaling, to reduce/eliminate parasites.  I'm a bit shocked you weren't doing that originally - very irresponsible, if you ask me.  </font> 
I'm pretty sure that I also read a report somewhere that foals can be born with pre-existing worm burdens, as eggs can migrate to un unborn foal through the placenta within the mare, another reason for possible scouring. 
 <font color="blue"> True, but only if the mare has worms. </font> 
Its always worth while using equest or a five day panacur gaurd treatment pre-foaling say in february to erradicate any encysted worm burden that the mare may carry. Panacur 5 day gaurd and equest being the only two wormers availible in the uk that can be safely used on pregnant mares that treat successfully without resistance for encysted worm and early larval stages of cyathathomes. 
 <font color="blue"> Agreed 
	
	
		
		
	


	




 </font> 
As Equest is not licensed to be given to lactating mares you will not be presented with the opportunity to do so again until your foal has been weaned so be sure the mare is treated. If the mare has not been previously treated with equest or panacur gaurd in the last 12 months then its perhaps safer to use panacur 5 day gaurd as side efffects have been noted in horses with an encysted worm burden caused by the migration of the worms leaving the gut, symptoms such as skin irriations, colic, scouring etc.
 <font color="blue">Is this last paragraph advice to me?  Thanks, but don't worry - I don't have any foals or weanlings now ....(they all died through parasite burdens 
	
	
		
		
	


	




 )
  </font> 

This treatment should then be followed post foaling with a wormer such as equimax that contains the chemical group that eliminates tape and all other known species (with the exception of encysted round worm) six weeks after your encysted worm treatment. 
 <font color="blue"> I am happy to be corrected, but did not believe roundworm could be 'encysted'...perhaps you meant small redworm? </font> 
For mares and foals all ivermectin based wormers that can be used safely to treat mares and foals every six weeks throughout the grazing period is Bimectin as it comes in an 800g tube to treat both mare and foal seperately. However it is advisable to switch to a second chemical group wormer in year two as is found in strongid.
 <font color="blue"> 800g seems like a lot of wormer...I'm impressed that you manage to get them to take it.  Or perhaps you meant sufficient wormer for 800kg of bodyweight - in which case it is worth noting that this may be far too much for some horses/not enough for others - weigh before you worm! </font> 
General rule of thumb for us, is early spring and autum (after weaning) treat mare with equest, followed by equimax six weeks later, worming throughout summer with an ivermectin based wormer of mare and foal every six weeks and you can't go wrong. 
 <font color="blue"> Actually, Panacur 5 day is more effective regarding encysted small redworm, and I believe that some resistance to ivermectin has been found in studs (abroad if memory serves). </font> 


[/ QUOTE ]
 <font color="blue"> S 
	
	
		
		
	


	




 </font>


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## Cop-Pop (27 February 2008)

What a great post - have just spent my lunch hour reading it trying to understand the sciencey bits 
	
	
		
		
	


	





S - 5 day guard is great but does anyone know how to get their horse to eat feed with it in..?  

When I worked at the stud they didn't worm their mares - they were blood tested twice a year and had worm counts done every 3 - 6 months and wormed if requried, otherwise they were left alone.


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## Shilasdair (27 February 2008)

[ QUOTE ]
S - 5 day guard is great but does anyone know how to get their horse to eat feed with it in..?  


[/ QUOTE ]

Good question 
	
	
		
		
	


	




I've found most horses won't touch their feed if it's got Panacur Guard 5 day anywhere near it, especially the flavoured stuff.   I have had to resort to orally syringing it...although it is a bit too liquid so challenging to syringe too.  I have thickened it with icing sugar, etc in the past to make it easier.   
Most vets will happily supply you with an oral syringe. 
Another point is that if you have a largish horse, you need to buy two bottles to get the correct dosage.
S


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## AndyPandy (27 February 2008)

I must post a quick thank you to Jos Mottershead of Equine Reproduction LLC, OK, USA for the basis for the myths thread; his article on breeding myths was the inspiration here and I have not given them due credit.

For loads of high quality breeding information, visit their website:

http://www.equine-reproduction.com


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## mike1210 (28 February 2008)

Ref: foal heat scours are caused by the mare coming back into oestrous.

The transfer of Strongyloides westeri eggs through the mares milk is a possibility but there is no concrete evidence that this is the case, it is something that occurs but interestingly foals that are bottle fed still have a high incidence of going slightly loose behind during the same period whilst the mare is returning to cyclicity.

Interestingly your view about ivermectin i think would be frowned upon by alot of people, i say that due to the known ability of this class of anthelmintics causing hepatotoxicity in animals with chronic fibrosing hepatitis. The neonate liver when born is far from running at 100% due the fact that whilst in utero a major aspect of the maternal - foetal exchange across the epitheliotropic junction at the placenta is to exchange waste materials and gases from the foal, these substances being dealt with by the mother. It would therefore be incorrect to assume that once there is a shift in majority of detoxification from the mares liver over to the foals that the foals liver is going to be functioning anywhere near as efficiently as the mares.

Therefore i would seriously advise against administering ivermectin / avermection based drugs to neonates unless you intend on damaging their livers and or possible upsetting the little natural intestinal flora that they do have during the first few days of life, and tipping the balance into causing an overgrowth of a potentially pathogenic bacteria that would be there in low numbers, namely salmonella, e.coli, enterobacter etc and causing an enterocolitis with the possible added on bonus of septicaemia kicking in.

Foal heat scours are something that all foals get and should not be viewed as something to worry about, unless the foal appears off colour itself. In light of the fact that many foals get foal heat scours when there are not even on a mare and are hand reared with milk replacer demonstrates the fact that foal heat scour is most likely the foals digestive system settling into the pathogens which it is coming across.

If you want to eliminate S.westeri being transferred to the foal worm the mare with an anthelmintic that is licensed for use in the pregnant mare and is effective against this helminth, during the 10th month of gestation.


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## springfallstud (28 February 2008)

Thanks Mike, very interesting to read!!!


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## Shilasdair (28 February 2008)

[ QUOTE ]
Thanks Mike, very interesting to read!!! 

[/ QUOTE ]

Agree, thanks, and to AP for this thread.
S


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## teabiscuit (28 February 2008)

May I ask, how likely is a mare's first foal to be born (and mature) smaller than subsequent foals?

sorry if this has been covered already, I didn't see it


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## AndyPandy (28 February 2008)

[ QUOTE ]
Therefore i would seriously advise against administering ivermectin / avermection based drugs to neonates unless you intend on damaging their livers and or possible upsetting the little natural intestinal flora that they do have during the first few days of life

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, I certainly wouldn't recommend giving ivermectin to a neonate - as I mentioned earlier, it's easy to give them serious poisoning, causing liver damage, blindness and many other problems (Nasty case report by Plummer et al, 2006 for those who want to know more).

What I suggested was giving the wormer to the MARE within 12-24 hours of the foal being born. The transfer of ivermectin through milk is, I believe, very low (less than 1ng/ml in equines). Tia on this forum has used the system, and had great results. I also suggested that you consult your vet or supplier before giving any wormer.

Furthermore, I suggested the use of Eqvalan, an ivermectin based wormer, and I quote from the literature supplied with the wormer: EQVALAN can safely be used during all stages of pregnancy and in breeding stallions, and they also recommend worming young foals every 6 weeks.

I think it's a nice thing if scours can be prevented.


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## KarynK (28 February 2008)

Tip  if you have more than one horse, just buy the 1 or 5 ltr panacur bulk buy,  its the same as the guard but much cheaper and dose for 5 days as per bodyweight, either keep back an old worming syringe or get a large flushing syringe off your vet or a local farming store and dose away!!!


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## KarynK (29 February 2008)

[ QUOTE ]
Ref: foal heat scours are caused by the mare coming back into oestrous.

The transfer of Strongyloides westeri eggs through the mares milk is a possibility but there is no concrete evidence that this is the case, it is something that occurs but interestingly foals that are bottle fed still have a high incidence of going slightly loose behind during the same period whilst the mare is returning to cyclicity. 

[/ QUOTE ]

Whilst lactation is the primary source of infestation threadworms are more than capable of surviving in the environment and penetrate the skin as a 3rd stage larvae, this enviroment is shared by bottle fed foals as well.  There is also some evidence to suggest pre natal infiltration of the placenta.

R. H. Johnston, L. D. Kamstra and P. H. Kohler 2008 found no
significant difference in the compsition of mares milk during the Foaling Heat that would explain scours in the foal.  If you think about it logically all those parisites are sitting around waiting for something to appear that is not immune to them, they are not going to waist a minute in their drive to reproduce, that cycle happens to coincide with the foaling heat.

Personally having had my last foal scour quite badly and have her backside burnt not to mention the possibility of internal damage and having to bottle feed her scour powders I would not just leave it!  Especially as I know understand that dosing the mare with a safe product would save that experience.


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## Navalgem (29 February 2008)

My maiden TB mare was due to foal (calculated from insemination) on the 31st July, she did foal that night, foal being born on 1st August as it was 4.30 am, I'm guessing that would be her 340th day then? 341 if we're being pedantic


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## AndyPandy (29 February 2008)

Good post Karyn, thank you


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## Shilasdair (29 February 2008)

[ QUOTE ]
Tip  if you have more than one horse, just buy the 1 or 5 ltr panacur bulk buy,  its the same as the guard but much cheaper and dose for 5 days as per bodyweight, either keep back an old worming syringe or get a large flushing syringe off your vet or a local farming store and dose away!!! 

[/ QUOTE ]

To add to your tip - if anyone does bulk buy Panacur, do make sure you ask what the expiry date is first.  It would be grim to buy 5ltrs only to have it go out of date before you finished it.
S


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## KarynK (29 February 2008)

Sorry Teabuscuit  Have tried to post this twice and no luck so I'll try again.

Keep photographic records of the foals stood in a similar position next to the dam at 2 days old.  I find this really useful in comparing type height and conformation, then carry on with pictures at regular intervals.  I have found no difference in 1 &amp; 2 from my TB mare, different sires but similar type and height, 1&amp;2 aged 5 and 3 respectively - little difference in mature height though 2 was quicker to get there.


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## KarynK (29 February 2008)

Heres one for you to get your teeth into AP!

I was informed when I imported semen from Canada that in cattle specifically Angus, which is what they bred as well as horses, you were more likely to get a male than a female when using frozen!

I got what I wanted a filly!!!!


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## FRESHMAN (2 March 2008)

WOW AP that was absolutely fascinating. Thank you so much for sharing your knowledge, We HHO are so lucky to have people like yourself  give so  much help. Personally, I couldnt tear myself away from this thread. I vote it to be the best ever. You should get an award.


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## AndyPandy (2 March 2008)

[ QUOTE ]
I was informed when I imported semen from Canada that in cattle specifically Angus, which is what they bred as well as horses, you were more likely to get a male than a female when using frozen! 

[/ QUOTE ]

Right... that's an interesting one. Firstly, only knowing one result (your filly), it's tough to say this is an accurate statement, however, here are my ideas:

1) Your mare was bred 6-12 hours before ovulation, as opposed to 0-6 hours before ovulation. Going by the understanding that male sperm go fast and die quick, and female sperm go slow and and longer lived... this might mean that, because of the reduced in-utero lifespan of frozen-thawed sperm, that by the time ovulation occured, more female (X-carrying) sperm were alive, than male ones, thus increasing the chance of getting a filly. Although, obviously this doesn't explain why they said that "all sperm from Canada..."

2) Something about the different volume of genetic material within the sperm cell has a protective effect during the particular freezing process used in the majority of farms and studs in Canada. It's a very vague idea; and probably wouldn't hold up to scientific investigation.

3) They don't centrifuge the semen very well, and the slightly heavier X-carrying sperm cells get harvested more than the lighter Y-carrying sperm. Again - pretty unlikely, but I wouldn't like to say that it was impossible.

4) A feminist scientist has developed a boy-sperm-killing solution which she slips into every cattle and horse extender in Canada 
	
	
		
		
	


	





5) Someone started spreading the rumour, and every owner that has a filly born comes online and tells their friends - "oh my god, I imported semen from Canada, and they said I'd be more likely to get a girl, and I did! WOW!"... whereas the people who get colts think "oh well, just a rumour" and forget about it 
	
	
		
		
	


	





If someone could show me sex-based stats on foals born from frozen semen conceptions from all over the world (including Canada), then we might be able to formulate a better answer; but to be honest, I'd say it's a 50/50 chance, and you were lucky


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## Fahrenheit (2 March 2008)

[ QUOTE ]
4) A feminist scientist has developed a boy-sperm-killing solution which she slips into every cattle and horse extender in Canada 
	
	
		
		
	


	





[/ QUOTE ]

Lol...


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## KarynK (2 March 2008)

Can narrow it down some

1) She was inseminated 4 hrs prior to ovulation so that ones out.

2) Possibility the straws I had were the single breeding dose in one straw (convenient ones) !

4)  Highly likely if you ask an American, they think all Canadians are strange, look at Jim Carey!

5) Another possible win win marketing!

It would be good if we could get some sex based stats period as I think it might be interesting to see if the 50/50 is affected?   I know my sister did research when she ran the early Siberian Husky records in the late 70s, of all the litters in a given year they evened out as a breed 50/50 Male Female.


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## lindylou (3 March 2008)

Very interesting, as i had a friend who used invermectin wormer on a foal some years ago, and it died shortly after, i have always been very worried about using it it since then and tend to use panacur, or 5 day panacur guard in foals, have never had a problem with that.


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## KarynK (4 March 2008)

Not surprised by that at all,  Ivermectin toxicosis is often seen in dogs following treatment with ivermectin formulated for horses or cattle, in other words an overdose!

The drug itself is quite novel being a type of antibiotic produced from a fungus first isolated from a soil sample.  So its not really surprising that resistance in this is reported.

Just as a note here AP has reported on research suggesting worming of the MARE after foaling and NOT a neonatal foal, Worming or any other concoction given shortly after birth can do untold damage to a foal as the stomach lining is particularly vulnerable due to it being ready to absorb colostrum.

In this example it is suspected of causing blindness in overdose on a 9 week old mule foal http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/bs...xy73k.alexandra

You should always read the manufacturers instruction and be careful never to overdose any foal with any product, basically if it doesnt say specifically on the product information about use for foals ASK before you use it and re Ivermectin specifically there is insufficient data to determine safety of its use in foals less than 4 months old!

This is really useful http://www.wormers-direct.co.uk/wormingmares.html


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## Damien (4 March 2008)

A serious bout of the runs is going to radically reduce the balance of the limited intestinal fluor that is present in a newly born foal anyway and can also lead to liver failure and death! For every medical expert that recomends not worming within the first 24 to 48 foal you will find one that recomends doing it. All you have to do is a quick search on google and read the reports availible, speak with a variety of specialists and you find they all sing different hymns just as is happening here. 

Many breeders and studs have been routinely worming foals shortly after birth for years administered by vets without consequence. Overdosing is a completely different topic of conversation and using foal deaths and liver failure caused by overdosing doesn't in my mind support the arguement.

The discussion is as contraversial as the use of vaccinations and antibiotics on the neo-nate yet many mare owners carry out routine shots within the first hours of a foals life, whilst others argue that the colustrum provided by the mare provides all the defense mechanisms that a new born foal will need providing that the foal is nursing adequately of course. We could argue that the penetration of a needle within the first few hours of life is exposing the neo-nate to possible infection.

I don't share the opinion that diarohea in the new born foal is "nothing to worry about" and is a routine part of foal heat, as it can lead to dehydrtaion and death, not to mention the scaulding that will occur on the new borns bum. I am just relieved that its something that we have managed to erradicate through gaining a better undestanding of what chemical groups treat which  strains of worm and laval stages of development. So yes Shiladair shame on me, but better finding out and changing than blatantly choosing to do nothing about it.

The reality is, that seriously over dosing any horse with any wormer can have drastic effects so can hardly be used as a reason not to worm a new born foal if administered in its correct doseage.

With regards to resistance to wormers, resistance has been found in all three chemical groups not just ivermectin bar the compound of moxidectin (to-date) which is not advised to be used in animals less than six months anyway.

Shildair...... yes had to laugh 800gs is a lot of wormer  
	
	
		
		
	


	




 and should have stipluated treats 800kgs of body weight anyway its telmin not bimectin that can be used to treat both mare and foal seperately using a single tube that treats 800kgs of body weight and can be used safey as part of a three year rotation program, interchanging telmin with a different chemical group wormer such as strongid, and ivermectin based wormer on a three year rotational program throughout the summer season. As always anyone in doubt should consult their own vet or contact the pharmicutical companies that produce the drugs they offer a wealth of information carried out by years of independant research (although others will probably argue that this is also a contraversial topic) LOL. 
However I would think that if worming a neo-nate routinely caused deaths they would be reported to the autorities and  pharmicutical companies would be forced to put warnings on the packaging as some do, such as equest and equest pramox. To each his own.


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## teabiscuit (4 March 2008)

thanks for your reply 
	
	
		
		
	


	




the reason i asked was rumour and also my shire x tb had two colts, to the same TB father:
the first one is very TB ish and 16.1hh, the second is more to the shire side and is 17hh

but that's only one example


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## KarynK (4 March 2008)

I think everyone so far that has erred on the side of worming the mare is very sensible.  NB in my experience a foal that scours shortly after birth has a serious problem in which case that would be a decision for a vet well versed in stud medicine, not a lay person.

If a mare has been subjected to a proper worming regime including paddock cleaning and her udders are cleaned before suckling,  there can be very little likelihood of a serious worm burden in the foetus prior to birth.  Personally I would not risk serious complications including blindness and brain damage by using a drug that is not recommended even by the manufacturers for use in such a young foal and I certainly would put all sorts of caveats around even remotely suggesting it on a forum like this.  

If you look at the link I have provided none of the orally administered anthelmintics are recommended for use in foals under 2 weeks of age, if those companies felt there was research out their to support earlier use they would be crowing about it!  Personally I would rather worm the mare to avoid foal heat scours and then worm the foal when a given product is known to be safe.

NB many chemical compounds are known to destroy intestinal flora most notably antibiotics (of which Ivermectin is one).   Intestinal flora are derived solely from the environment by contact with the dam at birth and when feeding but principally by eating the dams dung from about week 3 until around 6mts (Coprophagy if you want to get technical).  This is a vital process and in addition Deoxycholic acid  is obtained to protect and enhance the ability of the gut to fight off viral and bacterial infections.  The mare even produces compounds to encourage this process.  All the more reason to worm the mare shortly after birth I would argue, and have in the back of your mind when formulating worming routines post parturition and also to consider should the mare and or foal need a course of antibiotics during this period.

If you are an experienced breeder willing to take a risk then do so, but I would not advocate it, as the products are not proven to be safe even by their makers!  A very young foals stomach and intestinal linings are designed to be more open to ingestion of immunoglobulins in the colostrum, at this stage, I would not give anything orally that would interfere with that process or potentially cause great damage, since a foal only has around 18-36 hrs in which to take full advantage of those Igs to protect it from pathogens in its environment for the next 6-12 weeks.  It is far more likely to die from a pathogen if its immunity is compromised in this manner.  If a foal needs an injection at the direction of a suitably qualified veterinary surgeon then fair enough.  To me it makes much more sense to worm the mare and avoid the risk to the foal.     

Regarding overdosing, it is very easily done and more than warrants mention, since it was probably what caused the death in the foal above, and is paramount in my mind when making a decision on how and when to administer anthelmintics ( Drug orientated Wormers) to a foal especially without veterinary direction,  It is so very easy for a novice or even someone without access to a weighbridge to overestimate the weight of a foal, and one at this age is more susceptible to the smallest of overdoses with chemicals,  so yes it is a valid consideration in this discussion.  

You cannot begin to compare in my mind the overdose to a healthy mature adult animal to the same insult presented to a vulnerable newborn, to seriously overdose an adult in the same manner would need relatively far more of the chemical than that required to cause irreversible damage to a young neo-natal newly emerged from a sterile environment.

Regarding foal heat scours as already discussed above simply worming the mare (at far less of a risk) is a perfectly viable option, to me it would be the one of choice since I can then worm the foal when it is safe to do so.  If I were considering worming a very young foal then personally I would look at alternative medicines rather than chemicals at this early age.   

The reason I only mentioned Ivermectin was because that it is the drug that is the topic of conversation on this thread and was the topic of conversation I was replying to.    

I would think that if worming a neo-nate routinely caused deaths they would be reported to the authorities and pharmaceutical companies
I wouldnt count on it, nor do they publicise the number of horses killed deliberately by overdose when developing these medicines and yes I have no doubt that some foals died for them to put that caveat on in the first place.  There have been experiments surrounding equine vaccines where yearlings were euthanased simply to see how big a lump is formed under the skin when giving vaccinations, horses die to give you these safe products!


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## KarynK (4 March 2008)

[ QUOTE ]
thanks for your reply 
	
	
		
		
	


	




the reason i asked was rumour and also my shire x tb had two colts, to the same TB father:
the first one is very TB ish and 16.1hh, the second is more to the shire side and is 17hh

but that's only one example 







[/ QUOTE ]

I would think that it's probably down to the combined genetics of the two parents rather than the myth, I am sure if you kept breeding them together you would get the same sort of variation and more different ones as well.

Only half of each parents available genes are contributed on each mating so simply put your mare might have a gene from her shire parent for a huge foal in mature height and one from the TB for a lower mature height and on each of the two matings she put only one in. of course there are all sorts of other genes at work too and factors that affect them.

As AP has already mentioned somewhere there is indication that the health and size of the womb does have an effect on adult height, and I have seen that at work, but here I think it would be genetics as one favoured the shire in type as well, fun isn't it!!!


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## Shilasdair (4 March 2008)

[ QUOTE ]

 I am just relieved that its something that we have managed to erradicate through gaining a better undestanding of what chemical groups treat which  strains of worm and laval stages of development. So yes Shiladair shame on me, but better finding out and changing than blatantly choosing to do nothing about it.
 <font color="blue">Do you think I don't manage my horses to control parasites?  If you re-read my posts, you'll find I said I didn't worm my foals...this is not synonymous.  </font> 

Shildair...... yes had to laugh 800gs is a lot of wormer  
	
	
		
		
	


	




 and should have stipluated treats 800kgs of body weight anyway its telmin not bimectin that can be used to treat both mare and foal seperately using a single tube that treats 800kgs of body weight and can be used safey as part of a three year rotation program, interchanging telmin with a different chemical group wormer such as strongid, and ivermectin based wormer on a three year rotational program throughout the summer season. As always anyone in doubt should consult their own vet or contact the pharmicutical companies that produce the drugs they offer a wealth of information carried out by years of independant research (although others will probably argue that this is also a contraversial topic) LOL. 
 <font color="blue"> I'm afraid I don't follow your worming 'programme', as I prefer to manage my pasture to eradicate worms, and worm strategically by using worm counts instead (and obviously treating for small redworm/bots/tapeworm spring and autumn.  This, I believe is the vet recommended method, to avoid resistance where possible.
S 
	
	
		
		
	


	




</font> 


[/ QUOTE ]


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## teabiscuit (5 March 2008)

umm it's fascinating





i've had the same thing with a TB colt and filly

the filly was the first foal and is about a hand smaller than the colt (both now grown up)

but the difference in gender probably accounts for that?


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## wishfulthinking (5 March 2008)

Really enjoying reading this post, very informative. I too wormed mare post foaling and bypassed scours.


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## S_N (6 March 2008)

[ QUOTE ]
As Equest is not licensed to be given to lactating mares

[/ QUOTE ]

Just FTR, Equest it's self IS licensed for both pregnant and lactatinc mares. It is the Equest Pramox that is not.


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## Loika (6 March 2008)

Re:  Downs Syndrome and older mares / eggs 

I found your hypothesis on Down's very interesting but I am afraid it is incorrect!  Sorry!  
	
	
		
		
	


	





Basically an egg and sperm contain half the DNA required to form a whole new being.  Both of these cells would be subject to attack by the immune system because of this.  Sperm is developed and 'nannied' in the testes prior to ejeculation by specialist cells.  Eggs are kept in an semi developed state containing a full set of chromosomes until they are stimulated by FSH to grow and be released at ovulation.  At this point meisos occurs, splitting the genome into two halves.  One half is disguarded and the other is encased in the neucleous.  Age causes the chromosomes to get "sticky" and they fail to separate completely.  

Down's Syndrome is technically called trisomey 21 as it contains all or part of chromosome 21 as well as a complete set, so there are three Chr.21.  As any mammal ages (mammalian geneticists so no idea about other animals!) fertility reduces.  

Sperm is usually the main cause of defects because of the constand rounds of meitosis and meiocis, increases the chances / probability of mutations in a vunreable area.  Not all mutations are bad, there is a lot of "dead" space on the chromosomes, not to mention the "wobble" positions in codons but that is all a bit in depth.

Apologises for the spelling, but I hope that makes sense!


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## ISADORA (11 March 2008)

There is un -research proven evidence that embryo foals are not so robust.


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## KenRehill (11 March 2008)

I've got five in my barn that are robust enough to argue with you!


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## oln (22 March 2008)

great thread. what more can i say?


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## KarynK (3 April 2008)

Feedback on the Ivermectin experiment.

Wormed the mare 6 hrs after foaling, with Eraquell (ivermectin 1.87% w/w ivermectin )  Sorry AP but they are on offer at £4.85 and I had one spare!!!  
The mare is coming into season today having given birth on 25th March, and 

NO SIGN OF THE RUNS IN THE FOAL!!!!  So pink powder on standby remains in the box and foaling box has been restocked with Eqvalan for next mare!


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## michaelj (2 June 2008)

I dont intend on breeding, but if we ever put a mare into foal... Ill read this!


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## Touchwood (6 June 2008)

Just another to add - this is the first year we have wormed the mare immediately after foaling and we also avoided scours!  Shall definately be continuing - nothing worse for both humans and foals than horrid runny bums!


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## Petethehunt (7 July 2008)

Thanks for a great thread.

A good tip for foals with scours, to stop the burned bums, squirt baby oil over the bum and the swishing of the tail will  evenly distribute it all. Really works, no need to wash.

Better still, worm the mare just after she has foaled!!


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## pony_junkie (16 December 2008)

Regarding the worms and scouring...........
I dosed my ponies last year one week before their due dates with Eqvalan Duo and none of the foals scoured at all.
I did it so that the mare and foal were clear at birth and the foal would then not need dosing which would allow good gut flora to establish before giving them any chemical wormer.
Is this a good way of doing them both?
Can it do any harm at this late stage of pregnancy.
I made sure I used a wormer suitable for both a mare in foal and one sucking a foal.


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## DaniiDiamond (27 January 2009)

Inbreeding would never deform a foal.
Like bovines, some horses have genes that make muscle build up quickly. HYPP h/h horses for example. So if you bred say a brother and a sister with a quick muscle build up gene, that gene would be amplified into the foal.
Complicated but easy to understand.
Example:
HYPP h/h (positive) horse -






HYPP n/n (negetive) horse - 






I don't promote HYPP horses but the muscle difference is astounding. 
That's what you get from line bred horses.

Just a piont that inbreeding isn't as bad as people make it out too be.


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## AndyPandy (10 February 2009)

Just had to add another one... as now we're into the new stud season, I've heard this bandied around a fair few times:

Myth: A stallion who has covered naturally cannot be trained to collect using a dummy mare and AV.

Truth: 99% of stallions can be trained (or retrained) to collect in this manner. Those that can't are usually those with injuries cause them pain when they've mounted, meaning they will not ejaculate. Bute, or ground collection is normally the best option for these boys.

Dummy training is not about making the stallion believe that the dummy is a real mare (necks, ears, heads, tails etc. are a total waste of time), or about conning him onto getting on because he thinks he's on the mare... Stallions are not stupid 
	
	
		
		
	


	




 They get onto the dummy because they learn that by getting onto this silly lump of metal, foam, and leather, that they get to ejaculate... Lucky them!


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## mygeorge (11 February 2009)

Its great to read some sensible and informed posts on breeding. I could never get my head round the reabsorbed embryo thing as it sounds ridiculous to me and was not mentioned in my biology degree. Thanks AndyPandy. I'm going to have another go with my older maiden mare this time who had mating induced endometritis/reduced uterine clearing last year. Wish me luck.


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## lillith (15 February 2009)

I know the post was a while back but I saw a BCS of 5-7 reccomended for a broodmare on the is that on the 0-9 scale or 1-10? cos 7 seems a little high to me, fat mares are harder to get in foal.


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## jenny_adams (24 April 2009)

Thanks for letting us know.


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## MadArabLady (24 June 2009)

"It is dangerous for a menstruating woman to be in the presence of a stallion

There is no reason why this should be the case, and no evidence to support the hypothesis. It is likely to be a relic of the male-dominated breeding set-ups of the late 19th and early 20th century."

I've had my man since he was born in 1991. There are times when it is dangerous for anyone to be around him, but thats because we sometimes get complacent around him! I have never avoided him at "that time of the month" but certainly his attitude changed - probably because I was evil when I has stomach ache and he didn't want a smack  lol


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## kerilli (23 July 2009)

re: first foals being smaller.
my first mare, 16.3 idxtb, big roomy mare, had had 1 foal when i bought her, he got to 17.2. i bred from her years later, filly made 15.3. next two colts made 17.3 again. so, definitely not a small first foal for that one.


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## FoalLover (2 August 2009)

We have done lots of ET and never found any of our foals to suffer at all from any problems.  The ET and non ET foals have been just as robust as each other.  In fact we presently have one ET stallion who has qualified for 2 classes at HOYS this week and also have another homebred gelding who is not ET and of the same age and has qualified for 2 classes.  Genetics is very important in compeition horses but so is management.


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## merlyn26 (6 August 2009)

[ QUOTE ]
"It is dangerous for a menstruating woman to be in the presence of a stallion

There is no reason why this should be the case, and no evidence to support the hypothesis. It is likely to be a relic of the male-dominated breeding set-ups of the late 19th and early 20th century."

I've had my man since he was born in 1991. There are times when it is dangerous for anyone to be around him, but thats because we sometimes get complacent around him! I have never avoided him at "that time of the month" but certainly his attitude changed - probably because I was evil when I has stomach ache and he didn't want a smack  lol 

[/ QUOTE ]

ive got two stallions and one of them is a poppet every day of the year! the other is generally a pain in the backside most of the time - but sometimes (approx once a month) he can be really really bad for a few days on the trot and everytime he is i think to myself my god whats up with him this week - and then i twig - i am just a few days from the dreaded time of the month! - co-incidence??? i would have always argued that stallions where no different with women to men as every stallion i have dealt with until my grumpy boy have all been fine - but this one definately is picking up on something - but i have to say its not actually when im "on" but a few days before???? - but perhaps it is just the pmt


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## Blacklist (13 March 2010)

At last someone with some breeding gumption. Bravo


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## pointersrus (5 April 2010)

Re Menstruating women around stallions

I have a 3yo colt who is the first entire that I have had any experience with so I am just learning from day to day.

He has covered and is well aware of the "girls" on the yard but I definately have not had any interest of any kind from him when either myself or any other women who are menstruating are handling him, in fact he is always more interested in smelling the shovel/wheelbarrow/brushes or any other item that may have been near a mare in season or not.

re ivermectin based wormer

I routinely worm a newly foaled mare within 12 hours of foaling with an Ivermectin based wormer and have not had foal scours which always seem to coincide with a foal heat since doing this - seems to work for me!


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## missmollylilly (23 April 2010)

i was woundering i have a mare 12yr old bred for breeding and ment to be in foal when i bought her she is a belguim draft so v big due in 3 mnths and she has started to stand and squirt and wink at the geldings we have no stallions on the yard, does this mean that she is not in foal as i hear conflicting things can you help?


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## elijahasgal (3 May 2010)

Quote

Having a mare around a stallion will cause her to go into estrus

I have a mare that is very fertile. In fact the only time she didnt take first time was the year she  went to stud with another, having just finished her season. The next day, having seen the boys, she was in season again

Some mares are sensative to the pheramones in the air, and it does affect them


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## AndyPandy (8 May 2010)

elijahasgal said:



			I have a mare that is very fertile. In fact the only time she didnt take first time was the year she  went to stud with another, having just finished her season. The next day, having seen the boys, she was in season again

Some mares are sensative to the pheramones in the air, and it does affect them
		
Click to expand...

"having just finished her season"... was this confirmed by ultrasound? If not, one cannot confidently state that a mare has "finished her season". Even if this was the case, and she had recently ovulated, the "return" to oestrus you describe is not physiologically possible, unless the mare had an asynchronous ovulation which led to a delayed (and secondary) increase in oestrogen levels.

Either way, it had nothing to do with the presence of the stallions; "pheramones" or otherwise


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## Columbia (16 May 2010)

Great thread, thanks. I couldn´t stop reading.

Maybe this one is also of interest?

Genetically, a foal has 50% DNA from his mother and the other half from his father. But in many real cases the part of the mother is higher, let´s say maybe 60%.

This can more evidently be seen in combinations of horses and donkeys. If mother is horse, the foal will look more like a horse. If mother is donkey, it looks more like a donkey. Always..

Nobody knows today the reason why, there are some suggestions as for exemple an extrachromosomal influence caused by free mitochondrias and scientists work currently on that matter (there´s no result yet as far as I know).

Could be another reason why clones don´t look exactly like the original (guess they´re not using the original mares oocytes).


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## lillith (17 May 2010)

Mitochondrial DNA is from the mother only I believe, it allows the maternal line to be traced. How much affect this has on the phenotype is unknown I think.


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## Toffee44 (6 June 2010)

The follicle thing made me laugh when i first read it. 
As I rushed my mare off to stud yesterday, as she lost the pregnancy but was ovulating  while the vet was scanning her that morning, all I could see in my head was a follicle falling out hahaha sorry. 


*goes back to new lounge where I belong*


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## Dry Rot (3 July 2010)

The following questions were raised on another forum:

Do stallions mount mares in the herd that are not in season as a form of social bonding? And, if so, is there penetration?

If a stallion serves a mare that is already pregnant, can it cause it to abort?


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## addyjason (21 January 2011)

Thanks for this cool post. I came to know many things about horse breeding. Great work!!!


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## 2Conker (24 January 2011)

AndyPandy said:



			I would go for Eqvalan. Interestingly enough, Eqvalan was also shown to improve sperm quality in stallions about 20 years ago! It's good stuff 
	
	
		
		
	


	




 (always consult your vet, and the wormer vendor before use etc.)
		
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Many thanks AndyPandy, some great information, very interesting and knocking some of those 'facts' I've certainly had over the years well out of the picture.

Also, very reassuring about the old mares, could never subscribe to the argument that they produced poorer foals - I did wonder whether their milk would be as potent?  What's the oldest mare you've heard of producing a healthy foal and not harming herself (sorry, if already said this, will check through all the Thread).


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## 2Conker (24 January 2011)

Sleepy said:



			I have enjoyed this thread... I have found very informative! I love the bit about the 3000 balls, a great way to explain things!! 

I have however been unable to contibrute to the thread on a sensible level because I am still finding myself highly amused that anyone would think...

[ QUOTE ]
*I drove my mare to the stud and knocked off the follicle!*

[/ QUOTE ]

This comment has given me the giggles, everytime I have read it!!  
	
	
		
		
	


	





**HG goes back to the naughty corner... until she can control herself**
		
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Sleepy; agree that caught me out - couldnt believe what I was reading.....such a great Thread.


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## magic104 (12 March 2011)

Surely this is a myth!!
"FASCINATING FACT OF THE DAY Did you know that if you are working with a stallion and you spill water on yourself (or its raining say) the water on your skin will release hormones from your skin which could cause you a LOT of problems? I heard this from Monty recently and apparently there are studies on this  interesting!"

Was reading this thread today, when just now read the above on FB.  I just do not believe this.  Would this not mean that stallions could not be handled in the rain??


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## micramadam (8 April 2011)

Fantastic thread and have learnt a lot more. 
Just to add to it, my maiden mare gave birth at exactly 340 days and had a HUGE colt foal. Wasn't a very quick birth either I think because he was so big. Luckily we were on hand to help her.


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## scotia2k7 (12 July 2011)

...still a super thread, great reading through it again.  Always liked the stallions & time of the month females story...was once told by someone "never turn yer airse to a stallion"...spent months reversing out the stables... ...

Great stuff, thanks!


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## fburton (22 August 2011)

scotia2k7 said:



			...still a super thread, great reading through it again.  Always liked the stallions & time of the month females story...was once told by someone "never turn yer airse to a stallion"...spent months reversing out the stables... ...
		
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A related saying is "You can never trust a stallion" (or "Never trust a stallion"). That seems ridiculously dogmatic and alarmist to me. One might as well say "Never trust a horse"!

What about the possible myth that one shouldn't wear perfume (especially of the musk variety) around stallions because it can excite them? Although I tend to be skeptical about these this sort of statement, I have no hard evidence one way or another. There's some anecdotal evidence from people who have worn scent and have seen no effect on behaviour, but as far as I am aware no confirmed positive reports. All we would need to prove the assertion as fact is identify one perfume that causes problems. That shouldn't be _too_ difficult!


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## Loika (1 March 2012)

Each parent does provide half the DNA for the offspring and in the case of the X and Y chromosomes, the Y is smaller, so it could be argued that the mother donates more DNA. This is disregarding mDNA which is passed on largly unchanged and is a dating source in archeology.  It is easy to be side tracked but the real action is in the genome.

The differances of mules and hinny's is more likely due to genomal imprinting or Epigenetics and the more physical control of transcribing DNA.  Basically DNA is not left unravelled in your cells but packaged neatly and unwrapped when required, it cannot be expressed in this state.  Some genes are packed away and not expressed unless triggered by external factors, as demonstrated by famine followed by higher diabetes cases (as discovered in sweden, I think) or when a female, who is XX (or even XXX or XXXX), the spare X chromosome(s) is(are) inactivated at random during developement as demonstrated by link below, best example is sweat glands in humans (couldn't find heat sensitive camera picture!) as duplicate genes can be lethal or cause conditions like Downs (which is duplication of parts of chromosome 21).  

Another inheritance condition is Angelmans Syndrome which is caused by a mutation in the materal copy and Prader-Willi Syndrome which is caused by a mutation in the same gene but from the father.  These syndromes have very differant symptoms and only by isolating the gene was the connection made.

http://www.nature.com/scitable/topicpage/x-chromosome-x-inactivation-323


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## neelie OAP (1 April 2012)

Yes agree have always found Equvalan the best


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