# Athletes appeal against Australian team selection



## SpottedCat (22 June 2012)

http://www.an-eventful-life.com.au/...eventing-news/australian-eventing-team-appeal

The wording suggests that more than one person is appealing. 

I did wonder how people with good form on the Elite high performance squad could be passed over in favour of combinations not named on any of the squads. Interesting to see how this plays out - it can't make for a harmonious team atmosphere.


----------



## popsdosh (22 June 2012)

Glad its not just GBR that have issues.
I think there is a certain amount of bias towards riders already based in europe .I am not sure if this to do with experience or monetary considerations.I know of one team where the riders were told 18 months ago they had a better chance if based in UK.


----------



## hcm88 (22 June 2012)

Oh I find it all a bit awkward. Surely you'd feel so awful if you managed to get on the team through appeal because that means someone who was selected now isn't going? I don't think I'd have the guts to do it. Not entirely sure what I think, I know there are riders I'd like to see on the team but not instead of anyone else already on, if that makes sense. Will be very interesting to see what happens.


----------



## PorkChop (22 June 2012)

I often wonder if those that appeal really think the decision will be changed?  Not to mention what the atmosphere on the team would be - does anyone know if an appeal has been won before?


----------



## SpottedCat (22 June 2012)

I am speculating wildly, but I think a group of riders has got together not to challenge their personal exclusion, but to challenge someone's inclusion. If you look at their high performance squads, there are a number of combinations on them with good form who have been left out, in favour of Lucinda Fredericks on a horse which wasn't named to any of the squads. 

If there is a group of riders, then it is much harder for the selectors to blackball people in the future, and the Australians have form for challenging the selectors decisions - after all that was why Matt Ryan's much hyped but never achieved nationality change to GBR was first instigated.


----------



## Ali16 (22 June 2012)

popsdosh said:



			I know of one team where the riders were told 18 months ago they had a better chance if based in UK.
		
Click to expand...

This was definately the case with a team I was invlolved with last year. They were all told to relocate. Some did, some didn't. Team is due to be announced shortly so will be interesting to see...


----------



## Puppy (22 June 2012)

Blimey! It will be very interesting to see what happens.


----------



## Festive_Felicitations (22 June 2012)

I'm not surprised, to be honest. Even with the selection of reserves there are combinations that on results alone have better form.

There have now been challenges for all 3 Australian teams.


----------



## Puppy (22 June 2012)

Are the details of the appeal likely to be made public?


----------



## Festive_Felicitations (22 June 2012)

I don't know, will see what I can find out. 

Unlikely imho.


----------



## silu (22 June 2012)

Not entirely sure of my facts but am led to believe a few years ago now a very well known UK based New Zealand rider who has ridden an EXTREMELY well know grey horse for countless years was told she had to take herself and the getting on now grey horse over to New Zealand to even be considered for their Olympic Team. As I would have done under the circumstances she politely or maybe not! told The New Zealand selectors she and her wonderful horse would not be travelling over. It is not difficult to understand how the likes of both New Zealand and Australia do have a difficult job when trying to compare standards of horses and riders when they seldom if ever compete at the same competitions.....real headache!


----------



## armchair_rider (22 June 2012)

For what it's worth I don't believe than any of the individuals who have appealed against non-selection for team GB have been succesful, Taekwondo fighter Aaron Cooke is taking his case to the courts


----------



## AutumnRose (22 June 2012)

Interesting to see how this pans out. I think, in particular, some riders are upset about so much emphasis being placed on last weeks results when they were expressly told it wouldn't be. Wonder what will come of it all...


----------



## sabel (22 June 2012)

Reading Bill Levett's blog, he says that he did not appeal http://www.billlevett.com/archives/3979
I am another who is sorry Bill did not get selected.


----------



## JEP (22 June 2012)

The out come of this will be very interesting - I really can't understand how the selectors can have left out Sam, Paul and Bill, all who have horses with proven form, for Lucinda Fredericks, on a horse I've barely heard off, and Andrew Hoy.


----------



## hcm88 (22 June 2012)

sabel said:



			Reading Bill Levett's blog, he says that he did not appeal http://www.billlevett.com/archives/3979
I am another who is sorry Bill did not get selected.
		
Click to expand...

Paul Tapner isn't even a reserve?

Feeling v sorry for Bill


----------



## Maemorn (23 June 2012)

JEP said:



			The out come of this will be very interesting - I really can't understand how the selectors can have left out Sam, Paul and Bill, all who have horses with proven form, for Lucinda Fredericks, on a horse I've barely heard off, and Andrew Hoy.
		
Click to expand...

Are you serious? Happy Times is the most inconsistent showjumper and with two showjumping rounds at the games, do you really think they'll take the risk? And why would they take Paul? On what? Lucinda definitely deserved a place I think and the horse is lovely. Flying Finish has gone double clear in all of his 6 three stars AND his first four star at lunmuhlen, not to mention always coming near top in the dressage, why wouldn't the selectors want a horse like that? 



SpottedCat said:



			I am speculating wildly, but I think a group of riders has got together not to challenge their personal exclusion, but to challenge someone's inclusion. If you look at their high performance squads, there are a number of combinations on them with good form who have been left out, in favour of Lucinda Fredericks on a horse which wasn't named to any of the squads.
		
Click to expand...

Flying Finish was actually on the Australian Elite Squad.


----------



## CalllyH (23 June 2012)

I'm not sure how much Paul tapners done recently, he's one of my fav riders but really seemed to disappeared off the radar for a while


----------



## SpottedCat (23 June 2012)

Maemorn - I looked up the elite squad a couple of days ago and FF was not named to any of the high performance lists. The link is in the thread I posted the other day about selection.


----------



## kerilli (23 June 2012)

Maemorn said:



			Flying Finish was actually on the Australian Elite Squad.
		
Click to expand...

Really? Not for this year, according to this list:
http://www.uptowneventing.co.uk/-i2445.html

If he's gone DC in all 3* and his 4* that makes a difference, of course, but I can't see him suiting Greenwich... their TPs in Luhmuhlen cost them the win, no? And Luhmuhlen is pretty flat and gallopy compared to Greenwich.
PT on Inonothing, no? Or, perhaps the horse's soundness is slightly suspect, that's the only reason I can think of for excluding them.


----------



## Maemorn (23 June 2012)

kerilli said:



			Really? Not for this year, according to this list:
http://www.uptowneventing.co.uk/-i2445.html

If he's gone DC in all 3* and his 4* that makes a difference, of course, but I can't see him suiting Greenwich... their TPs in Luhmuhlen cost them the win, no? And Luhmuhlen is pretty flat and gallopy compared to Greenwich.
PT on Inonothing, no? Or, perhaps the horse's soundness is slightly suspect, that's the only reason I can think of for excluding them.
		
Click to expand...

I agree he isn't the fastest horse, but he's guaranteed to do a nice test and is probably the best showjumper on the squad. So what's a few time faults when plenty of other horses will get worse tests and likely to have one or two in the showjumping? He probably wasn't pushed in Lumuhlen, it was his first four star after all. Inonothing looked really lame in the showjumping at Luhmuhlen, doubt it would recover in time for the Games, shame as he is a lovely horse. I hoped Bill would have been included over Andrew Hoy, he's had way better results and his horses are nicer!


----------



## oldvic (23 June 2012)

silu said:



			Not entirely sure of my facts but am led to believe a few years ago now a very well known UK based New Zealand rider who has ridden an EXTREMELY well know grey horse for countless years was told she had to take herself and the getting on now grey horse over to New Zealand to even be considered for their Olympic Team. As I would have done under the circumstances she politely or maybe not! told The New Zealand selectors she and her wonderful horse would not be travelling over. It is not difficult to understand how the likes of both New Zealand and Australia do have a difficult job when trying to compare standards of horses and riders when they seldom if ever compete at the same competitions.....real headache!
		
Click to expand...


I find this hard to believe especially as their top riders are based in England and have been for many years. Before the last Olympics, Mark brought Gandalf to Europe for experience and to get qualified. Their top home based combinations have relocated to England to expose themselves to stronger competition and get more experience out of their comfort zone. They are all up here and acclimatised so can be compared if necessary.




Maemorn said:



			I agree he isn't the fastest horse, but he's guaranteed to do a nice test and is probably the best showjumper on the squad. So what's a few time faults when plenty of other horses will get worse tests and likely to have one or two in the showjumping? He probably wasn't pushed in Lumuhlen, it was his first four star after all. Inonothing looked really lame in the showjumping at Luhmuhlen, doubt it would recover in time for the Games, shame as he is a lovely horse. I hoped Bill would have been included over Andrew Hoy, he's had way better results and his horses are nicer!
		
Click to expand...

There is no guarantee that a horse will do a nice test especially in a pressure-cooker atmosphere of an Olympic Games. Any horse can have a rail show jumping although Flying Finish does look careful but time faults across country can clock up quickly. In Luhmuehlen he had the equivalent of 2 fences. I also noted that 1 judge had him 4 - 7 % above the other 2. Potentially that could have had him 3 or 4 marks lower and a couple of places lower.


----------



## GermanyJo (24 June 2012)

I was at Luhmühlen for all 4 days ... and Inonothing got more time penalties as LF's horse , .... and I have to admit Fly Finish looked stunning in all 3 phases ...


----------



## teapot (24 June 2012)

There was a tweet yesterday (can't remember who from but one of the Aussie eventers) saying that people had been dodging Bill Leverett's foul mood in the warm up & they couldn't think for a moment why he was in a bad mood  

Be interesting to see what happens post appeal...


----------



## Maemorn (24 June 2012)

oldvic said:



			There is no guarantee that a horse will do a nice test especially in a pressure-cooker atmosphere of an Olympic Games. Any horse can have a rail show jumping although Flying Finish does look careful but time faults across country can clock up quickly. In Luhmuehlen he had the equivalent of 2 fences. I also noted that 1 judge had him 4 - 7 % above the other 2. Potentially that could have had him 3 or 4 marks lower and a couple of places lower.
		
Click to expand...

The pressure may make a couple of marks difference, if anything, but you can't change the fact that the horse moves well and is beautifully trained, that doesn't just go away. I understand what you're saying about the judges, but that's the idea of having three of them, to get an average. You could equally say that the Swedish judge marked him a few % lower, which meant he could have had a better score.


----------



## TarrSteps (24 June 2012)

Re the business about having people fly half way across the world for head to head trials, I doubt it in the mentioned case because of the long history of their riders basing themselves here. What would it prove? Also they seem to generally have a fairly non-interventionist approach to people's preparations.

That said, it's an idea that's been pushed in similar situations in the past! The Canadian dressage tryouts one year mandated that all riders wishing to be considered attend the trials in Canada, including those based in Europe. One very prominent rider simply declined, another did it and the horse did not perform well and was left off. One could argue that proved the second horse didn't travel well but then surely that would be a reason to make everyone travel.

It's also come up with the American show jumpers before, even European-based riders have had to return to the US to ride in the trials. That probably makes slightly more sense but still, it's not exactly 'horse friendly' approach.


----------



## Festive_Felicitations (25 June 2012)

The DR rider who appealed has lost her appeal:
http://equestrian.cyberhorse.com.au/201206229660/Dressage-Olympics/hayley-lost-appeal.html
Just a quick note on a website, but Hayley & Belissimo have consitently posted better scores than 2 riders who are on the team...

Off topic but everyone is seriously hacked off with EA (Equestrian Australia) at the moment as they are making big decisions with out consulting their membership and charging us for the outcomes that were not wanted.


----------



## hcm88 (25 June 2012)

teapot said:



			There was a tweet yesterday (can't remember who from but one of the Aussie eventers) saying that people had been dodging Bill Leverett's foul mood in the warm up & they couldn't think for a moment why he was in a bad mood  

Be interesting to see what happens post appeal...
		
Click to expand...

Hmm yes, Bill responded to it himself - http://www.billlevett.com/archives/3997


Anyway, anyone got any news on the Eventing appeal?


----------



## vineyridge (26 June 2012)

Does no one care that Flying Finish and Rutherglen just ran a real 4* and will be expected to do another one is about six weeks?  

Honestly, I find that rather obscene.  This running horses every six weeks in 4* level compeitions by the Big Names seems to have become increasing common these days.  Does the HSBC bonus have anything to do with that?


----------



## Main Event (26 June 2012)

Hi hcm88 - a description of the process in this case & deadlines is on http://www.an-eventful-life.com.au/, third or fourth item down.


----------



## Danny1234 (26 June 2012)

vineyridge said:



			Does no one care that Flying Finish and Rutherglen just ran a real 4* and will be expected to do another one is about six weeks?  

Honestly, I find that rather obscene.  This running horses every six weeks in 4* level compeitions by the Big Names seems to have become increasing common these days.  Does the HSBC bonus have anything to do with that?
		
Click to expand...

Oh no, of course not! And does Andrew Hoy need to worry about money anyway these days..?? It is also not about ego and running your horse into the ground until you finally get a decent result out of him that will turn you into the ultimate 7-time-Olympic-Aussie-legend. Neither does it matter that London will be Rutherglen's 3rd CCI3 this year. Ah, and that other little CCI3 in early spring, oh well, Rutherglen is sensitive and strong, you know, after all Mr Hoy bought him and produced him. 

See, the reason is, as you get older you value things more - you value the results, and you value the opportunities. That's what Mr. Hoy says. And so that's why.


----------



## vineyridge (26 June 2012)

Rutherglen--Rolex Kentucky the last week in April, Luhmuhlen the second week in June, Olympics the first week in August.  These are not CIC 3*s; they are "real" CCI 4*s.  Wonder what they have planned for him, re: Burghley and/or Pau?


----------



## Mickyjoe (26 June 2012)

Tongue firmly in cheek eh Danny?


----------



## vineyridge (26 June 2012)

Now I'm wondering if I'm seeing a distinct anti  full TB bias in the Aussie selectors.  I've just gone through all of the nominated entries and not one full TB made their Team, although quite a few on the nominated list who have had good results in Australia ARE listed as TB.


----------



## typekitty (26 June 2012)

vineyridge said:



			Now I'm wondering if I'm seeing a distinct anti  full TB bias in the Aussie selectors.  I've just gone through all of the nominated entries and not one full TB made their Team, although quite a few on the nominated list who have had good results in Australia ARE listed as TB.
		
Click to expand...

That, to me, sounds like they are after better dressage types to come up against the Germans?



ETA: Don't mean to sound like I'm saying TBs can't do a nice test!


----------



## Turitea (26 June 2012)

vineyridge said:



			Rutherglen--Rolex Kentucky the last week in April, Luhmuhlen the second week in June, Olympics the first week in August.  These are not CIC 3*s; they are "real" CCI 4*s.  Wonder what they have planned for him, re: Burghley and/or Pau?
		
Click to expand...

There was also a start at the CIC*** in Wiesbaden/Germany end of May (9th place) plus dressage and show jumping in Bramham a week later. Just to complete the list, not to judge.


----------



## Danny1234 (26 June 2012)

Thanks for clearing that up vineyridge! London will be of course Rutherglen's 3rd CCI4(!) this year. Can't believe I typed that wrong - someone hacked my password?  That other small CCI3 in early spring I was referring to though, that was Montelibretti. Yet personally, I don't think Andrew Hoy will take  Rutherglen to Burghley/Pau after London, from what we are seeing so far, I assume he will take him to Adelaide instead.


----------



## vineyridge (27 June 2012)

Danny1234 said:



			Thanks for clearing that up vineyridge! London will be of course Rutherglen's 3rd CCI4(!) this year. Can't believe I typed that wrong - someone hacked my password?  That other small CCI3 in early spring I was referring to though, that was Montelibretti. Yet personally, I don't think Andrew Hoy will take  Rutherglen to Burghley/Pau after London, from what we are seeing so far, I assume he will take him to Adelaide instead.
		
Click to expand...

Should the horse live so long and stay healthy. 

Adelaide and HSBC points, eh?


----------



## Lizzie2106 (28 June 2012)

From what I've heard, the appeal has been dismissed.


----------



## Puppy (28 June 2012)

Lizzie2106 said:



			From what I've heard, the appeal has been dismissed.
		
Click to expand...

And does your source tell you who launched the appeal?


----------



## Festive_Felicitations (29 June 2012)

http://equestrian.cyberhorse.com.au...n-australia-olympic-nominations-eventing.html


----------

