# Why the hell is Pentathlon an Olympic sport?



## MissMincePie&Brandy (12 August 2012)

I thought the Olympics was a showcase of the best athletes in the world, something that everyone else should look up to and admire or even to aspire to...

So what the hell was that disgraceful and frankly disgusting exhibition that went on in Greenwich Arena on Saturday and Sunday?   All I can say is that I am appalled at the level of incompetence shown by the vast majority of the Pentathlon riders in the sj phase. Those horses were absolute saints to have put up with some of the most ignorant and unbalanced riding I have ever witnessed. I don't even see this level of incompetance at local unaf shows! 

Thank god none of the horses appear to be injured (well, not that we have been told about anyway - wouldn't surprise me if that poor one who got pulled over backwards yesterday has done some muscle damage) 

* If pentathlon competitors can't put in the effort and don't have the inclination to learn to ride and maintain regular ridden training sessions several times a week, which clearly most do not, then they should take this phase out of the competition.  IMHO!*


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## Koala Kate (12 August 2012)

Too darn right ! The whole thing was a car crash .


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## Haha (12 August 2012)

MissMincePie&Brandy said:



			I thought the Olympics was a showcase of the best athletes in the world, something that everyone else should look up to and admire or even to aspire to...

So what the hell was that disgraceful and frankly disgusting exhibition that went on in Greenwich Arena on Saturday and Sunday?   All I can say is that I am appalled at the level of incompetence shown by the vast majority of the Pentathlon riders in the sj phase. Those horses were absolute saints to have put up with some of the most ignorant and unbalanced riding I have ever witnessed. I don't even see this level of incompetance at local unaf shows! 

Thank god none of the horses appear to be injured (well, not that we have been told about anyway - wouldn't surprise me if that poor one who got pulled over backwards yesterday has done some muscle damage) 

* If pentathlon competitors can't put in the effort and don't have the inclination to learn to ride and maintain regular ridden training sessions several times a week, which clearly most do not, then they should take this phase out of the competition.  IMHO!*

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 The athletics pentathlon was a modern variation on the original events, with a competition over five track and field events. The modern pentathlon, invented by Pierre de Coubertin (father of the Modern Olympics), was a variation on the military aspect of the Ancient pentathlon. It focused on the skills required by a late 19th century soldier, with competitions in shooting, swimming, fencing, equestrianism, and cross country running.
A prominent aspect of modern pentathlons is the points system, whereby each competitor is awarded a certain number of points based on their performance in each specific event. The overall winner is the competitor with the highest points total at the end of the five pentathlon events.

So without this originally there would be no olympics


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## ReefingsDad (12 August 2012)

Nothing wrong with the concept of the Modent Pentathlon - it's just that for some inexplicable reason, it appears nobody told the competitors they'd have to ride a real horse until just before the showjumping.

If the riding part was taken seriously, then I can definitely see the appeal. It looks like great fun, and reminds me of a Country Sports triathlon I did many years ago - fly-casting, clay-pigeon shooting and a working hunter course.

Hm. Thinking now i should trademark that...


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## Koala Kate (12 August 2012)

Well they should darn well learn to ride then is its that important


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## flatcoat2 (12 August 2012)

Couldn't agree more. If they can't put in the training then a different sport should be included. If it is 'modern', how about some form of cycling? At least the bike won't lose it's confidence.
All the horses were saints but some looked fairly traumatised by the time they finished. Very few riders patted them or thanked them in some way. 
I also got cross with the commentator(s) who kept trying to stress that it was a test of the riders skill and, when there was no skill, never once expressed any concern for the horses at all. 
I should think some people wished they hadn't lent their horses for the competition.


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## MissMincePie&Brandy (12 August 2012)

Haha said:



			The athletics pentathlon was a modern variation on the original events, with a competition over five track and field events. The modern pentathlon, invented by Pierre de Coubertin (father of the Modern Olympics), was a variation on the military aspect of the Ancient pentathlon. It focused on the skills required by a late 19th century soldier, with competitions in shooting, swimming, fencing, equestrianism, and cross country running.
A prominent aspect of modern pentathlons is the points system, whereby each competitor is awarded a certain number of points based on their performance in each specific event. The overall winner is the competitor with the highest points total at the end of the five pentathlon events.

So without this originally there would be no olympics

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There would also have been a pretty high death rate of animals used in the original Olympics.  

Times have changed, and no one wants to see horses having their teeth pulled out, huge unbalanced dead weights bouncing off those poor horses spines, poor horses being driven into 1.2m fences on the worst possible line, etc, etc. Some horses became visibly distressed.  

Perhaps Pentahlon should do prelim dressage test instead .  I think most of those riders could just about manage a prelim without causing too much distress to those horses.


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## Haha (12 August 2012)

The people that lend their horses to this event do it all the time for pentathlon events.


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## MissMincePie&Brandy (12 August 2012)

Haha said:



			The people that lend their horses to this event do it all the time for pentathlon events.
		
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Is a lot of money involved?  Must be or else why risk a perfectly nice horse?


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## silu (12 August 2012)

From the results of the riding phases in both mens and womens it's quite clear it can't be influential enough other wise much more time would be spent on learning even the rudiments of riding.It's also a lottery as in the case of the poor s.. who had the ride the mare who'd been traumatised by it's "lovely" experience in it's 1st round. Scrap riding and replace it with say an army style agility course, then we'd see really fit athletes unlike a fair few carrying a good amount of over weight on the run. Oh yes by the way I did x country running at international level so have a fair idea as to the standard of that too! For anybody asking why I then didn't do Modern Pentathlon....didn't really exist in my day, certainly didn't as an Olympic event and I had to go out and earn a living!


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## RutlandH2O (12 August 2012)

In total agreement with your sentiments, MissMincePie&Brandy! I cannot watch that phase of the Pentathlon. I'm not worried about the riders - my concern is for those poor, traumatised, stressed horses. For the sake of welfare and common sense, let the competitors ride a bike!!


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## Penny Less (12 August 2012)

Thought the riders were pretty good on the whole, but then I cant jump a stick !!


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## philamena (12 August 2012)

I think if they're going to keep it in the competition then they ought to adjust the scoring so that it's more influential: that's the only thing that would make the ahtletes prioritise putting the right training in. On the one hand you have to hand it to them: it's fairly brave to bundle on down to a 1'20 fence on a horse you're barely in control of, with your heels up round your ears, not even the sligtest whiff of a stride and hanging on to the poor soul's mouth for grim death. So if they were forced to take it more seriously some of them could be half decent.


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## BeesKnees (12 August 2012)

philamena said:



			it's fairly brave to bundle on down to a 1'20 fence on a horse you're barely in control of, with your heels up round your ears, not even the sligtest whiff of a stride and hanging on to the poor soul's mouth for grim death.
		
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 It would be part bravery, part hilarious if it weren't for the poor horses on the other end of it. 

I agree, the marking system has to change. Which other Olympic sport allows you to have two refusals i.e. failures, and then go round that challenge to the next?  The whole thing is insane


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## armchair_rider (12 August 2012)

I agree too. It would be a shame to lose the modern pentathlon which is a nice link back to the re-founding of the games but as it is the competitors look stupid and the horses suffer.


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## Honey08 (12 August 2012)

Koala Kate said:



			Well they should darn well learn to ride then is its that important
		
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MissMincePie&Brandy said:



			Is a lot of money involved?  Must be or else why risk a perfectly nice horse?
		
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 Also to say that their horse had been to the Olympics??

I haven't seen it this year yet, but keep hearing that it was an improvement on Beijing.

The fences are too  big. They need lowering to 1.05 and some penalties need to be worked out for style too.   How many of us complaining would get on a strange horse, with 20 mins  to warm up, and only allowed 5 practice fences, and then go round a 1.20m course?  I sure as heck  wouldn't!


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## Koala Kate (12 August 2012)

But we are not purporting to Olympic athletes !


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## BeesKnees (12 August 2012)

Honey08 said:



			Also to say that their horse had been to the Olympics??

*On another thread one poster informed everyone that two of the horses used had been bought 'through them' and that their friend owned a grey that had been getting lots of positive comments. And guess what.... It's for sale! I guess it bests an ad in HHO classifieds *

  How many of us complaining would get on a strange horse, with 20 mins  to warm up, and only allowed 5 practice fences, and then go round a 1.20m course?  I sure as heck  wouldn't!
		
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I'm sorry but this such a total non-argument. I wouldn't get on a bike with no brakes and hurtle around a velodrome, or throw myself backwards off a 10 meter board either. But I expect those who go to the Olympics to be able to do things I could never do. Otherwise I'd be there!

The Pentathletes are not amateurs, they are professional athletes and should perform as such in every discipline of their sport.


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## Mike007 (12 August 2012)

There are a few fundamental problems with training for Modern Pentathlon. Because of the nature of the scoring,running and swimming give the most opportunity to gain points. A male athlete in his 20 s is unlikely to be particularly proficient in riding. There are insufficient numbers of training hours in a day for a competitor to become really proficient. Somthing has to loose out. A further problem , which is seen even within the pony club tetrathlon championships is that male riders who train to run and swim, loose a great deal of agility and tend to be top heavy. Frankly ,the standard of the senior boys tetrathlon,ON THEIR OWN HORSES demonstrates all the same problems as Modern Pentathlon. I feel it is rather judgemental to criticise competitors who train probably 60 hours a week or more for years, prior to the games.


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## philamena (12 August 2012)

Mike007 said:



			There are a few fundamental problems with training for Modern Pentathlon. Because of the nature of the scoring,running and swimming give the most opportunity to gain points. A male athlete in his 20 s is unlikely to be particularly proficient in riding. There are insufficient numbers of training hours in a day for a competitor to become really proficient. Somthing has to loose out. A further problem , which is seen even within the pony club tetrathlon championships is that male riders who train to run and swim, loose a great deal of agility and tend to be top heavy. Frankly ,the standard of the senior boys tetrathlon,ON THEIR OWN HORSES demonstrates all the same problems as Modern Pentathlon. I feel it is rather judgemental to criticise competitors who train probably 60 hours a week or more for years, prior to the games.
		
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Well described- I can see the issues. So should it still be in the sport if the standard is going to be so low? (Genuine question, not pointed.)


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## BeesKnees (12 August 2012)

Mike007 said:



			There are insufficient numbers of training hours in a day for a competitor to become really proficient.
		
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Really? Perhaps someone should tell Jesica Ennis, or the Decathletes. they seem to manage to do even more


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## Mike007 (12 August 2012)

BeesKnees said:



			Really? Perhaps someone should tell Jesica Ennis, or the Decathletes. they seem to manage to do even more 

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But they dont then have to drive to a suitable stables and then train to showjump. Also ,the skills to ride well arnt learnt in a school . MP in its hayday was the sport for the cavalry of all the olympic countries. Men who rode all day every day. So what do we do to improve things. Oddly enough ,the first thing to do is make the RUN a hell of a lot longer. 10 k would be a good benchmark. This would have the effect of raising the general age of competitors.It would tend to reduce the scoring effect of the swimming and running. Competitors would also have more time to learn to ride well. Riding regularly is not good for fast runners , it has far less effect on distance runners. We  need to make it a lot harder for the young "racing snakes".younger athletes tend to be faster over short distances but lack endurance.


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## NeverSayNever (12 August 2012)

does anyone have a link to watch this ?


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## TGM (12 August 2012)

I would hate to see the jumping phase of the pentathlon removed, but I do think some changes do need to be made to the format to make it better for the horses involved.

For example, a horse fall or three refusals should terminate the round.  This shouldn't mean elimination from the entire competition, but the competitor would only gain points from the obstacles he has already jumped.  (This is similar to the rules in Pony Club Tetrathlon).  This would have the double benefit of stopping the poorest riders struggling around the entire course, plus would increase the significance of this phase in the scoring, so encouraging athletes to focus more on training for this phase.

The course should be designed to be progressive, with the lower fences and easier turns/distances at the beginning, with the harder obstacles and combinations towards the end.

Perhaps they need to allow the competitors a little more time and a few more practice obstacles to get to know their mounts before entering the arena.  (At present only 20 mins and 5 practice jumps allowed, I believe).


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## lucky-star (12 August 2012)

couldnt agree with you more.

did any of you see that poor horse that jumped over the entrance gates because the rider was cantering towards it, maybe thinking "oh he'll stop at the gate, as i cant seem to stop him, or put him on a circle" don't think she had the brains, luckily no one was injured or jumped onto on the other side of the entrance gate, as far as i know.

and that poor horse that kept getting the smack and spurs in his ribs, i know the whip is to back up you leg aid but to me he just needed the confidents of that rider and her smacking him when he kept refusing, i didnt like, but thats just me


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## philamena (12 August 2012)

Mike007 said:



			But they dont then have to drive to a suitable stables and then train to showjump. Also ,the skills to ride well arnt learnt in a school . MP in its hayday was the sport for the cavalry of all the olympic countries. Men who rode all day every day. So what do we do to improve things. Oddly enough ,the first thing to do is make the RUN a hell of a lot longer. 10 k would be a good benchmark. This would have the effect of raising the general age of competitors.It would tend to reduce the scoring effect of the swimming and running. Competitors would also have more time to learn to ride well. Riding regularly is not good for fast runners , it has far less effect on distance runners. We  need to make it a lot harder for the young "racing snakes".younger athletes tend to be faster over short distances but lack endurance.
		
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I take your point - to a point. To be honest, you don't need to ride that regularly to be taught how to sit in balance over a fence and how to use your body to slow a horse rather than perching and tugging the reins. 

There are people riding better than that who have one lesson a week. In fact, I was definitely better than that on one lesson a week when I was returning to riding after a break and getting back up to speed preparing to buy my horse. And that was genuinely on one lesson a week, no more, and jumping a strange horse each lesson. Fact is, they obviously don't see the riding phase as influential enough. Not their fault, they'll prioritise, so the system needs changing.


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## Flame_ (12 August 2012)

The riding should be dressage. That would test the riders more accurately and fairly without frightening and endangering the horses so much. It would give the good riders a decent chance to show what they can do without all the unlucky poles down they get in jumping, but it would still show up the muppets. In fact it would probably mean they'd get the score they deserve as a rider not the score an amazingly honest, careful horse somehow pulls off in spite of them. I bet there aren't many dressage schoolmasters that can still pull off the movements and a good score with jockeys who can't press the buttons!

It might also help non horsey folk understand how tricky dressage actually is too.

ETA - comedy dressage might be easier to enjoy without having to worry for the horses quite so much


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## NeverSayNever (12 August 2012)

well i knew nothing about pentathalon until i saw this thread and just watched some of the sj phase. Frankly im horrified. Poor ruddy honest horses being ruined. Why do people allow their horses to be used for this


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## BeesKnees (12 August 2012)

Mike007 said:



			Riding regularly is not good for fast runners , it has far less effect on distance runners.
		
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As a fitness and rehab professional I'm interested in the reasoning for this?


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## Mike007 (12 August 2012)

philamena said:



			I take your point - to a point. To be honest, you don't need to ride that regularly to be taught how to sit in balance over a fence and how to use your body to slow a horse rather than perching and tugging the reins. 

There are people riding better than that who have one lesson a week. In fact, I was definitely better than that on one lesson a week when I was returning to riding after a break and getting back up to speed preparing to buy my horse. And that was genuinely on one lesson a week, no more, and jumping a strange horse each lesson. Fact is, they obviously don't see the riding phase as influential enough. Not their fault, they'll prioritise, so the system needs changing.
		
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Sorry to disagree, I have yet to meet someone who has one lesson a week and doesnt have a horse ,who can walk out and get on a strange horse and compete round  a course of 1.20. I have on the other hand seen plenty of "riders" who can look wonderfull on a horse ,in a school with only one lesson a week.I have also sadly witnessed some of these riders coming seriously to greif when they actualy had to ride in a real situation.I do agree with you that the situation needs changing though.


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## Mike007 (12 August 2012)

BeesKnees said:



			As a fitness and rehab professional I'm interested in the reasoning for this?
		
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A lot to do with fast twitch and slow twitch muscles apparently,If you ride regularly your muscle build up is basicly wrong for fast running. Too much weight in the wrong places too. When I was in my 20 s I was ridiculously fit yet I just couldnt get my running times down. I could run absolutely for ever but was totaly one paced. Even in my late 30 s I could do a sub 3 hour marathon without any additional training, but the pace of a MP run was simply too hot for me.


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## philamena (12 August 2012)

Mike007 said:



			Sorry to disagree, I have yet to meet someone who has one lesson a week and doesnt have a horse ,who can walk out and get on a strange horse and compete round  a course of 1.20. I have on the other hand seen plenty of "riders" who can look wonderfull on a horse ,in a school with only one lesson a week.I have also sadly witnessed some of these riders coming seriously to greif when they actualy had to ride in a real situation.
		
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My point was about basics. Sitting in balance, strength in your position, using your legs and hands properly, knowing how to slow down a horse that's taking off a bit, not getting jumped off because the horse does a bit of a cat leap... That was missing in lots of the riders. I know what you mean about some riding school schoolmasters who make it very easy for people and then it coming apart when they get on a 'real' horse (as it happens that's not what I was riding, i was just using me as an example to make a point - and it didn't all fall apart once in the real world as it happens because I got taught properly on lots of different "imperfect" horses, specifically because that's what I asked for as I was about to start trying lots of strange horses to see if I wanted to buy them ...and I'm *very averagely* talented at best!!) The level some of these people were riding at in terms of their security, balance, judgement, they shouldn't have been jumping British Novice, let alone 1'20. 

Like I said, I'm not blaming them, I'm saying something's a bit wrong in the system if this is the best way to test horsemanship in this event.


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## Orangehorse (12 August 2012)

The trouble with the riding section is that it also depends on the horses that the riders are given.  You might be a good rider - someone who has come up through Pony Club as Steph Cook did, I think, and get the worst horse in the competition.  Yet someone else who is a sit and steer rider may get lucky in the draw and get a saint who will take anyone round.

I can't see that unless everone was given the same horse - obviously impossible - that it can be a "fair" test.  I can see why it was included originally, a good rider ought to be able to get on any animal and ride it competently, as a test of a soldier, but is it really appropriate for a modern competition.  The shooting, running, fencing, swimming, etc. are tests of the athlete, not lottery of which horse.


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## Mike007 (12 August 2012)

philamena said:



			My point was about basics. Sitting in balance, strength in your position, using your legs and hands properly, knowing how to slow down a horse that's taking off a bit, not getting jumped off because the horse does a bit of a cat leap... That was missing in lots of the riders. I know what you mean about some riding school schoolmasters who make it very easy for people and then it coming apart when they get on a 'real' horse (as it happens that's not what I was riding, i was just using me as an example to make a point - and it didn't all fall apart once in the real world as it happens because I got taught properly on lots of different "imperfect" horses, specifically because that's what I asked for as I was about to start trying lots of strange horses to see if I wanted to buy them ...and I'm *very averagely* talented at best!!) The level some of these people were riding at in terms of their security, balance, judgement, they shouldn't have been jumping British Novice, let alone 1'20. 

Like I said, I'm not blaming them, I'm saying something's a bit wrong in the system if this is the best way to test horsemanship in this event.
		
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I agree, which is why I think we need to shift the top level competetive age level upwards. Give riders more time to absorb the equine lifeskills. (ooh I like that phrase)The best way to do this is to lengthen both the run and swim.


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## Mike007 (12 August 2012)

Orangehorse said:



			The trouble with the riding section is that it also depends on the horses that the riders are given.  You might be a good rider - someone who has come up through Pony Club as Steph Cook did, I think, and get the worst horse in the competition.  Yet someone else who is a sit and steer rider may get lucky in the draw and get a saint who will take anyone round.

I can't see that unless everone was given the same horse - obviously impossible - that it can be a "fair" test.  I can see why it was included originally, a good rider ought to be able to get on any animal and ride it competently, as a test of a soldier, but is it really appropriate for a modern competition.  The shooting, running, fencing, swimming, etc. are tests of the athlete, not lottery of which horse.
		
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And yet the usual suspects tend to win, so they must be doing somthing right in the riding , to turn it from just a lottery.


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## BeesKnees (12 August 2012)

Mike007 said:



			A lot to do with fast twitch and slow twitch muscles apparently,If you ride regularly your muscle build up is basicly wrong for fast running. Too much weight in the wrong places too. When I was in my 20 s I was ridiculously fit yet I just couldnt get my running times down. I could run absolutely for ever but was totaly one paced. Even in my late 30 s I could do a sub 3 hour marathon without any additional training, but the pace of a MP run was simply too hot for me.
		
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Hmmm, not sure about the science there. Riding for 70 secs is not an endurance activity. And even sprinters do longer training sessions than their actual race times, to build condition and power.

All muscles have a mixture of fast and slow twitch fibres, but the balance will depend on the main role of the muscle (largely mobilising and phasic or stabilising and tonic, although that is a oversimplification). and each individual is of course different.

It may have been that you are simply not blessed with as many fast twitch fibres as you would have liked, and are naturally an endurance athlete. You can train to change this, but it takes specialist work.

The riding would have been unlikely to have made much difference i wouldve thought but i could be wrong!


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## armchair_rider (12 August 2012)

A course that gets progressively harder sounds sensible. That and taking away whips and spurs.

Mind you as it is called Modern Pentathlon couldn't a quad bike race or skateboarding be substituted?


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## Mike007 (12 August 2012)

I understand your point regarding the science, but the problem is not the 70 seconds of competition ,but the hours of hard riding daily over years ,that it takes to produce a competent showjumper . The workload is very bad for fast running.Also remember that if you ride regularly at any serious level you will start to carry injurys,which whilst not being particularly significant over a long distance ,are a nightmare for shorter faster work. 



BeesKnees said:



			Hmmm, not sure about the science there. Riding for 70 secs is not an endurance activity. And even sprinters do longer training sessions than their actual race times, to build condition and power.

All muscles have a mixture of fast and slow twitch fibres, but the balance will depend on the main role of the muscle (largely mobilising and phasic or stabilising and tonic, although that is a oversimplification). and each individual is of course different.

It may have been that you are simply not blessed with as many fast twitch fibres as you would have liked, and are naturally an endurance athlete. You can train to change this, but it takes specialist work.

The riding would have been unlikely to have made much difference i wouldve thought but i could be wrong! 

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## BeesKnees (12 August 2012)

Mike007 said:



			I understand your point regarding the science, but the problem is not the 70 seconds of competition ,but the hours of hard riding daily over years ,that it takes to produce a competent showjumper . The workload is very bad for fast running.
		
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But the run is 3k isn't it? That is an endurance event not a speed event. I cannot see how riding would effect that. Sorry


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## JFTDWS (12 August 2012)

Why not mark the sj like style jumping?  Surely that would enable them to keep the sj but encourage the finer points of equitation rather than the luck of the honest horse who does it despite them...

Possibly coupled to a lengthened run, which makes sense to me, and re-jigging the scoring to ensure all phases are significant.


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## Mike007 (13 August 2012)

BeesKnees said:



			But the run is 3k isn't it? That is an endurance event not a speed event. I cannot see how riding would effect that. Sorry
		
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3k is basicly a very short jog. In no way is 3k an endurance event.


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## Oldenburg27 (13 August 2012)

No way on this earth would I let my horse be put foward for this in a million years. 

It was awful to watch at times, i dont know who said it but I think it is a case of people being able to say "My horse was at the Olympics" cause I dont think anyone in there right mind would let there horse be put for it after what happen at Beijing. But this is just MHO.

Something has got to be looking into the training as it really lets it down as I really enjoyed watching it. Would be a shame too lose it.


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## Mike007 (13 August 2012)

Oldenburg27 said:



			No way on this earth would I let my horse be put foward for this in a million years. 

It was awful to watch at times, i dont know who said it but I think it is a case of people being able to say "My horse was at the Olympics" cause I dont think anyone in there right mind would let there horse be put for it after what happen at Beijing. But this is just MHO.

Something has got to be looking into the training as it really lets it down as I really enjoyed watching it. Would be a shame too lose it.
		
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Nothing to do with"my horse was at the olympics". So many of the horse suppliers have been long term supporters of the sport. They have put in the hours ,taking horses to so many MP meets over so many years. Its not  done for the money. They barely break even. Also so many unpaid helpers,who have put in so many before dawn starts to take horses to distant meets. These are the grass roots of MP.


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## Goldenstar (13 August 2012)

Watching that was not nice perhaps the riding should be replaced with something else it's simply not fair to the horses.


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## Bedlam (13 August 2012)

Modern Penthathlon is THE Oympic Sport. Trouble is that the weighting of each phase is wrong - that's all. 

My daughter used to compete in MP. She always won the fence, never had a pole SJ and was a national level swimmer so was there or thereabouts on the swim. She gave up though because she was an unreliable shot and hated running. 

I called her down to see the riding phase today and we had a discussion about whether she should pick it up again (I guarantee that she can ride 200% better than the majority of the 'riders' we saw today). 

She went to look up the run and swim scores for her age group and found that she could no way match the run score that is sooooo influential. 

She could win the fence without much effort, would be in the top 3 of the swim without trying too hard and would be clear SJ. But she would lose. Because as long as you can run you can win the modern pentathlon.

Until the scoring system is worked out so that all phases are equal, you're not going to get good sport.


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## Oldenburg27 (13 August 2012)

Mike007 said:



			Nothing to do with"my horse was at the olympics". So many of the horse suppliers have been long term supporters of the sport. They have put in the hours ,taking horses to so many MP meets over so many years. Its not  done for the money. They barely break even. Also so many unpaid helpers,who have put in so many before dawn starts to take horses to distant meets. These are the grass roots of MP.
		
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I would NOT subject my horse to that ever, I understand money is lost etc its the same with anything and as i said this was just my opinion.

I know of 1 horse being there because of that!! As i know the owner!!


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## Noodlebug (13 August 2012)

My son could not believe that these athletes could get a medal the same as Usain Bolt's for being so very cr"p at some thing!!! I don't understand why they don't practise this discipline more??


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## Wishful (13 August 2012)

The problem is balance of scoring. You start from a max in riding, in the others you start from an average and go above or below. So no big gains available. I'd suggest a time limit during which you jump a course, only getting points for fences jumped successfully. 50% of fence score for knock down. 3 refusals and round terminated. 6 down and round terminated. Fall of horse and round terminated. 2 falls ode rider and round terminated.


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## Polotash (13 August 2012)

Honey08 said:



			Also to say that their horse had been to the Olympics??


The fences are too  big. They need lowering to 1.05 and some penalties need to be worked out for style too.   How many of us complaining would get on a strange horse, with 20 mins  to warm up, and only allowed 5 practice fences, and then go round a 1.20m course?  I sure as heck  wouldn't!
		
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Umm, anyone who did/ does BUSA/ BUSC... That's the inter-uni sport for those of you who don't know. You ride a novice level dressage test (10 min warm up on a strange horse, picked out of a hat) and then jump a 3 foot SJ course (rising to 4'6 in the finals) having had a 5 min warm up and two practice jumps (ditto, strange horse, picked out of a hat).

I agree though that the scoring is wrong. IMO they should scrap the jumping altogether, since scarely anyone could seemingly even ride a straight line into a fence, let alone see a stride, and instead ride an Elementary dressage test. Then you'd see who could ride a horse in a basic outline and do a little bit of lateral work. They could even make it a Prix Caprilli, with two small fences judged in style, if jumping is so important...

ALSO, they should adopt the Uni scoring system, where riders ride the same horse, the best on that horse gets 0, then the others are given the number of penalty points they are behind the leader. So if the best on a horse has 1 pole, the next best 2 poles, and then two riders with 4 poles down they'd get 0, 20, 60 and 60 (using the MP scoring system of 20 penalties per jump down). That would be fairer on those who had a trickier horse, like the GB girl on the very strong iron grey, which frankly looked dangerous.

PS, still laughing in a horrified manner at the girl who's chesnut jumped out of the ring at the end. It wasn't even strong, she just didn't seem to realise you don't just canter back to the stables at the end of your round!


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## -Sj- (13 August 2012)

Honey08 said:



			How many of us complaining would get on a strange horse, with 20 mins  to warm up, and only allowed 5 practice fences, and then go round a 1.20m course?  I sure as heck  wouldn't!
		
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This.


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## combat_claire (13 August 2012)

Would a more generous time limit to complete the course not encourage the riders to go for a steady clear rather than an out of control storm round the course? 

It was also a very technical course with a lot of related distances. Knowing what a bog I have made of combinations on a strange horse during my riding lessons I'm not surprised so many of them had issues.


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## Samuelissimo (13 August 2012)

Useful suggestion.  The men were going like one-oh, flattening and having masses of fences down, bad presentation, etc.  A slightly less technical course, a bit more like an eventing show-jumping phase and a few more seconds to complete could have stopped some of the carnage.  Not myself in favour of eliminating the jumping phase.  I estimate that for both men and women, about 10% of the rides were awful ( the US men's rider - geez!), and 15% of the rides for men were competent (both the Hungarians), the women had a few more competent riders.  That leaves about 75% in the "ok but not great" category.  A little less technical and a little slower would improve these stats.  I felt sorry for the Japanese women's rider: the horse jumped every fence so big and if she had trained on more workmanlike horses that would be very difficult to sit, which was evident as she came off.  If she got Spike it might have been a very different picture (Spike is the piebald with an interesting back story.)


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## BeesKnees (13 August 2012)

Mike007 said:



			3k is basicly a very short jog. In no way is 3k an endurance event.
		
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It may feel like slow jog (and that is interesting that you found it so easy, as it suggests as I said before that you may be more endurance suited.) However from an anatomical and physiological point of view, 3k is absolutely an endurance event! 

Bear in mind that, very simply put, the anaerobic energy system (which fuels fast twitch muscle fibres) runs out at around 3 minutes. The initial creatine system runs out at about 1o seconds! Fast twitch fibres fatigue quickly. So anything up to that point is classed as speed. 

Beyond that time, the body switches to aerobic (oxygen and glucose) which fuels the slow twitch fibres. These fibres work at a lower intensity for longer periods but do not produce the same raw power. Hence beyond 3 mins-ish, it all becomes classed as endurance, whether it feels like it or not!

This change is fuel systems is why the human body cannot run (or cycle or swim) at sprinting speed for very long. Of course you train to improve the efficiency of the fuel systems and the removal of lactic acid, but the human body is still limited in what it can physically do.


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## Samuelissimo (13 August 2012)

POlotash, re the chesnut - sorry you are wrong there. I was in the stands right next to the exit and the horse was very strong throughout the round and was not in control at all.  She was having great difficulty slowing it up at the end.  Her inexperience showed in that it was not the time to be close to the exit, but with no control on the horse, easy to criticise.

A few of the women's horses were quite spicy, which surprised me a bit, as I would expect horses to be more of the schoolmaster-showjumper type ( was with an owner of one of those watching). Hers went around calmly and reasonably well ( two fences down then 4 fences down).  She didn't feel that her horse was harmed by the experience and any weak rounds were well off-set by the masses of schooling he got during the two week training period.


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## Suechoccy (13 August 2012)

The level of riding was woeful in all but a handful of cases (Ricardo de Luca was a lovely rider).   It is unacceptable at Olympic standard that the riding should be so low.  

As it's "Modern" pentathlon, they should replace the showjumping with something "modern" like segway racing, or mountain biking.


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## hcm88 (13 August 2012)

I've read the whole post and I'm not sure how to multi quote so I'm just going to reply generally.

The scoring definitely needs to be adjusted and more weight put on the riding phase as its clear these competitors do not put enough emphasis on their riding practice. And first and foremost this is dangerous. Unlike swimming/running/shooting/fencing if you get it wrong or aren't confident you aren't going to risk yours or an animals life, but in show jumping when you can't ride to an appropriate level and are going in an jumping 1.20 there is a serious risk of accident and injury. Many of the horses used helped a lot of those riders out of very sticky situations and I do not see how that demonstrates qualities of an olympic athlete.


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## highjinx (13 August 2012)

The course dose start at 1m and gos up so the bigger fences are at the end the spred on the fences are no wider then they are high


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## silu (13 August 2012)

Let's hope with golf (don't think that should be an Olympic sport either) being added in Rio the Brazilians will drop Modern Pentathlon. I wondered if you discounted all the spectators who hadn't any connection to the competitors ie coaches, relatives, friends, if there were many people who'd actually paid to watch?  Certain from the tv coverage there were very few people watching on the running section.Lot less than the crowds who watched the walks which I wouldn't imagine aren't very popular events for most people to support.
If they HAVE to keep something equestrian in the event, other's suggestion of a dressage test might not be too bad, less likely to damage horses....the riders, well they have a choice to risk their necks and many did just that.


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## Elbie (13 August 2012)

I remember on the BBC3 programme about 50 amazing olympic moments (or something like that!) they talked about the shocking riding at Beijing in the pentathlon. One of our GB pentathletes that was there said basically they have loads all the other events to train for and so riding isn't a priority to practice.

Sorry, but I wouldn't enter a pentathlon and not learn how to shoot or fence. I appreciate they're not professional riders but if riding is part of the competition, should they not learn the basics such as setting a horse up and seeing a stride?! Less likely to have fences down or refusals that way!


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## Haha (13 August 2012)

Goldenstar said:



			Watching that was not nice perhaps the riding should be replaced with something else it's simply not fair to the horses.
		
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Lets close all riding schools because the learners are going to hurt the horses at some point!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Mike007 (13 August 2012)

BeesKnees said:



			It may feel like slow jog (and that is interesting that you found it so easy, as it suggests as I said before that you may be more endurance suited.) However from an anatomical and physiological point of view, 3k is absolutely an endurance event! 

Bear in mind that, very simply put, the anaerobic energy system (which fuels fast twitch muscle fibres) runs out at around 3 minutes. The initial creatine system runs out at about 1o seconds! Fast twitch fibres fatigue quickly. So anything up to that point is classed as speed. 

Beyond that time, the body switches to aerobic (oxygen and glucose) which fuels the slow twitch fibres. These fibres work at a lower intensity for longer periods but do not produce the same raw power. Hence beyond 3 mins-ish, it all becomes classed as endurance, whether it feels like it or not!

This change is fuel systems is why the human body cannot run (or cycle or swim) at sprinting speed for very long. Of course you train to improve the efficiency of the fuel systems and the removal of lactic acid, but the human body is still limited in what it can physically do.
		
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The point that I think you have missed is that your 3 minutes of sprint ,would take you the last 3rd of the run pretty damn fast,yet over 10 k it would mean little.


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## Suechoccy (13 August 2012)

Haha said:



			Lets close all riding schools because the learners are going to hurt the horses at some point!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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No, the point is these are OLYMPIC standard athletes.   Therefore we would (well I would, naively perhaps) expecting them to ride at a pretty good level, at least a competent level, preferrably riding at an Olympic level.

I do not expect to see them riding in the style of someone who's bloody brave but has never learnt to sit in balance on a horse, and who thinks it is acceptable to hang onto the reins grimly, socking the horse over each jump in the mouth, or pulling it over backwards in a rear.

No way was that "riding" in any shape or form.  

Beginners and improvers in a riding school, whole different scenario.  They are learning. They will make mistakes.

At Olympic level, these riders should be able to ride.  They can shoot and fence okay, so why not ride? Lack of instruction. Lack of time spent being instructed on a showjumping horse in how to ride showjumping style.


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## philamena (13 August 2012)

Even Jabeena Maslin who does some of the coaching and provides horses is quoted in last week's H&H saying some of them "can't even do rising trot". Not sure any other sport would settle for such incompetence in one of it's "phases"?


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## philamena (13 August 2012)

Soz can't edit on phone. One of "its" phases.


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## BeesKnees (13 August 2012)

Mike007 said:



			The point that I think you have missed is that your 3 minutes of sprint ,would take you the last 3rd of the run pretty damn fast,yet over 10 k it would mean little.
		
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Nope wasn't talking about the 3k vs 10k discussion. I was discussing your assertion that riding well is deleterious to speed running ability. My point is that you aren't speed running at 3k. It isn't physically possible! 

So therefore i cant see how riding well would affect your ability to run 3k well. IMO that is an excuse frankly for either lack of riding talent, or not putting the work in.

Whether the sport would benefit from a Change to a longer run I've no idea.


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## Dizzyblonde99 (13 August 2012)

Anyone intrested in watching any - couple of videos on youtube

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YKwIGdX6UUY


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## ClobellsandBaubles (13 August 2012)

JFTD said:



			Why not mark the sj like style jumping?  Surely that would enable them to keep the sj but encourage the finer points of equitation rather than the luck of the honest horse who does it despite them...

Possibly coupled to a lengthened run, which makes sense to me, and re-jigging the scoring to ensure all phases are significant.
		
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I agree I am sure that's how they run the Uni MP here or at least the stables insists it is  They get a score for faults and a score for style over each fence.



Bedlam said:



			Modern Penthathlon is THE Oympic Sport. Trouble is that the weighting of each phase is wrong - that's all. 

My daughter used to compete in MP. She always won the fence, never had a pole SJ and was a national level swimmer so was there or thereabouts on the swim. She gave up though because she was an unreliable shot and hated running. 

I called her down to see the riding phase today and we had a discussion about whether she should pick it up again (I guarantee that she can ride 200% better than the majority of the 'riders' we saw today). 

She went to look up the run and swim scores for her age group and found that she could no way match the run score that is sooooo influential. 

She could win the fence without much effort, would be in the top 3 of the swim without trying too hard and would be clear SJ. But she would lose. Because as long as you can run you can win the modern pentathlon.

Until the scoring system is worked out so that all phases are equal, you're not going to get good sport.
		
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The way tit is scored means that this IS the Olympic level of MP riding you don't HAVE  to be any better especially if you can run fast to make up the places. Maybe the riding should come last to eliminate that effect of the running. 



combat_claire said:



			Would a more generous time limit to complete the course not encourage the riders to go for a steady clear rather than an out of control storm round the course? 

It was also a very technical course with a lot of related distances. Knowing what a bog I have made of combinations on a strange horse during my riding lessons I'm not surprised so many of them had issues.
		
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I definitely think maybe no time or a much longer one would encourage better riding and more sensible scoring in order to increase the significance of the riding would help increase the standard. I really enjoy the MP, it's a really interesting mix of events and one we do well in, but I agree it could do with a rejig to give the riding more weight. Taking it out of the Olympics is not going to increase the standard it just means you  don't have to watch which I don't think the right way to go. 
At the moment the quality of riding you see is Olympic level in this event and steps need to be taken to improve this to make it more equal with the other events. Maybe funding and training needs to be looked at as well?? More publicity can only help in this respect.


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## Mike007 (13 August 2012)

BeesKnees said:



			Nope wasn't talking about the 3k vs 10k discussion. I was discussing your assertion that riding well is deleterious to speed running ability. My point is that you aren't speed running at 3k. It isn't physically possible! 

So therefore i cant see how riding well would affect your ability to run 3k well. IMO that is an excuse frankly for either lack of riding talent, or not putting the work in.

Whether the sport would benefit from a Change to a longer run I've no idea.
		
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You may not be able to see how riding affects running ,but it does . Most of the work done in jumping is work to maintain a position, antagonistic muscle groups working to keep the body in ballance. None of this is the sort of explosive fast twitch effort of ,for example a sprinter. So from this point of view it is liable to make a runner one paced (slower).Add to this the fact that ,particularly in men, a large additional mass of muscle is being developed ,which is not required for running ,and is in effect dead weight to be carried. Furthermore, increased muscle mass in the lower leg has to be accelerated and decelerated with each stride. This saps a lot of energy. Whilst cross training by running is good for a rider , riding is definately not good for a serious runner.


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## MissMincePie&Brandy (14 August 2012)

Samuelissimo said:



			A few of the women's horses were quite spicy, which surprised me a bit, as I would expect horses to be more of the schoolmaster-showjumper type .
		
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I do hope you aren't blaming the horses! All of those horses jumped that same course in the same arena very well with their owners or regular riders on board in the practise sessions prior to the weekend.

A well mannered schoolmaster of competition calibre, can quickly turn into a quirky wreck with a nervous / heavy handed / unbalanced novicy rider on board, and this is what we saw happening with those horses.  

It saddened me to watch over and over, how quickly bad riding was causing the loss of confidence in such super horses.


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## BeesKnees (14 August 2012)

Mike007 said:



			Most of the work done in jumping is work to maintain a position, antagonistic muscle groups working to keep the body in ballance. None of this is the sort of explosive fast twitch effort of ,for example a sprinter. So from this point of view it is liable to make a runner one paced (slower).Add to this the fact that ,particularly in men, a large additional mass of muscle is being developed ,which is not required for running ,and is in effect dead weight to be carried. Furthermore, increased muscle mass in the lower leg has to be accelerated and decelerated with each stride. This saps a lot of energy. Whilst cross training by running is good for a rider , riding is definately not good for a serious runner.
		
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Sorry but I think your science is wrong. 

1. Jumping is not just about holding one position, but also about fast phasing flexion around the hip joint, using abs, adductors and hip flexors, and then extension using the Glutes and back extensors. This is equivalent to the swing and propulsion stages of running.  In fact the Anterior Oblique sling that would be active during the fold of jumping (abs, adductors) is a crucial part of running and enables the torso and limbs to be accelerated but also to stabilise the torso on top of the pelvis.

2. In ALL activity muscles are working to keep the body in balance and upright, especially in running when you are effectively on one leg for most of the time! Furthermore most muscles play at least some part in both mobilising and stabilising. They switch focus according to the challenge being asked of them and use different fibres within the muscle to perform different roles.

3. What is the huge additional muscle mass being developed?  

Ultimately, the point surely is that the Pentathlete is not a serious runner. They' re a serious multi-disciplinary athlete, and part of the challenge is being good at all the tasks irrespective of what effects that may have. 

Throwing the javelin isn't particularly beneficial for running. Ever looked at a javelin thrower and though yep they're built to run?   But the Heptathlete still has to reach a certain standard to compete successfully.

Bottom line is , if you aren't good enough at the riding, then you aren't a Pentathlete.


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## Mike007 (14 August 2012)

We shall just have to agree to disagree. It is clear to me that you simply dont understand what is involved .


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## Bestdogdash (14 August 2012)

BeesKnees said:



			It may feel like slow jog (and that is interesting that you found it so easy, as it suggests as I said before that you may be more endurance suited.) However from an anatomical and physiological point of view, 3k is absolutely an endurance event! 

Bear in mind that, very simply put, the anaerobic energy system (which fuels fast twitch muscle fibres) runs out at around 3 minutes. The initial creatine system runs out at about 1o seconds! Fast twitch fibres fatigue quickly. So anything up to that point is classed as speed. 

Beyond that time, the body switches to aerobic (oxygen and glucose) which fuels the slow twitch fibres. These fibres work at a lower intensity for longer periods but do not produce the same raw power. Hence beyond 3 mins-ish, it all becomes classed as endurance, whether it feels like it or not!

This change is fuel systems is why the human body cannot run (or cycle or swim) at sprinting speed for very long. Of course you train to improve the efficiency of the fuel systems and the removal of lactic acid, but the human body is still limited in what it can physically do.
		
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In no way can a 3km jog be described as an endurance event (unless you are very unfit or fat). Surely anyone who is fit enough to ride a horse properly could run/jog 3km ? I accept a 3km race run properly at pace does involve endurance, but not a jog !  If a person  can't jog 3km then they seriously need to have a conversation with themselves and sort it out. 

I would also like to say all this whining about the M. Pentathlon is rather boring. It is a wonderful sport. No one is forced to lend their horses, and the riding is significantly better than a lot I see at any BSJA competition, or indeed on videos posted on this site, all of which are met with 'well done you' 'ahw - lovely' type comments for the most appalling riding. Double standards ?


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## BeesKnees (14 August 2012)

Mike007 said:



			We shall just have to agree to disagree. It is clear to me that you simply dont understand what is involved .
		
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No, I just work in fitness, physio and rehab (for a business that works with elite level athletes) and have to understand this stuff for a living.........

Lets not let accurate, up to date, understanding of the anatomy and physiology of how the body moves to get in the way of a good excuse, though eh


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## BeesKnees (14 August 2012)

Bestdogdash said:



			In no way can a 3km jog be described as an endurance event (unless you are very unfit or fat). Surely anyone who is fit enough to ride a horse properly could run/jog 3km ? I accept a 3km race run properly at pace does involve endurance, but not a jog !  If a person  can't jog 3km then they seriously need to have a conversation with themselves and sort it out.
		
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As I explained in my post, it doesn't matter what it feels like (that will depend on your fitness and ability), as far as the physiological mechanisms of the human body and the way it burns fuel to produce energy are concerned, 3k (that is 3000 metres, over half of the 5k run that Mo Farah does) is an 'endurance' process. This is fact, not opinion! 

I don't think it is literally raced as a jog anyway. I think Mike was using that term euphamistically to indicate it was too easy and should be lengthened.


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## Mike007 (14 August 2012)

BeesKnees said:



			No, I just work in fitness, physio and rehab (for a business that works with elite level athletes) and have to understand this stuff for a living.........

Lets not let accurate, up to date, understanding of the anatomy and physiology of how the body moves to get in the way of a good excuse, though eh 

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None of which ,sadly, convinces me that you have much idea of what is involved physicaly in both jumping and running or the problems of training.


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## Haha (14 August 2012)

Bestdogdash said:



			In no way can a 3km jog be described as an endurance event (unless you are very unfit or fat). Surely anyone who is fit enough to ride a horse properly could run/jog 3km ? I accept a 3km race run properly at pace does involve endurance, but not a jog !  If a person  can't jog 3km then they seriously need to have a conversation with themselves and sort it out.
		
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I am having a serious conversation with myself


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## BeesKnees (14 August 2012)

Mike007 said:



			None of which ,sadly, convinces me that you have much idea of what is involved physicaly in both jumping and running or the problems of training.
		
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On the contrary I've given plenty of evidence that I do understand what is happening in the body during these activities. It doesn't however tally with the reason you've bought into as to why you couldn't get your running times quicker. I think that is why you choose to reject it.

On the other hand you have given me no convincing science backing up your reasoning. Please point me in the direction of it so that I can learn what it is that I am so misunderstanding. Seriously, I'm always keen to improve my understanding. It helps me work with my clients and help them find a way to reach their goals, rather than telling them one aspect of the sport they do is making it impossible for them to do another aspect well.


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## Mike007 (14 August 2012)

BeesKnees said:



			On the contrary I've given plenty of evidence that I do understand what is happening in the body during these activities. It doesn't however tally with the reason you've bought into as to why you couldn't get your running times quicker. I think that is why you choose to reject it.

On the other hand you have given me no convincing science backing up your reasoning. Please point me in the direction of it so that I can learn what it is that I am so misunderstanding. Seriously, I'm always keen to improve my understanding. It helps me work with my clients and help them find a way to reach their goals, rather than telling them one aspect of the sport they do is making it impossible for them to do another aspect well.
		
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Nothing to do with my running times ,LOL. It is to do with everyones running times . The Greater BMI you have ,the harder it is to achieve a fast run ,it doesnt matter whether it is fat you are carrying or muscle development which is not required for running. The end result is that you are slower. Surely you can grasp this simple point. And hard riding such as cross country or steeplechasing , definately builds up muscle groups that are not required for running.


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## BeesKnees (14 August 2012)

Mike007 said:



			Nothing to do with my running times ,LOL. It is to do with everyones running times . The Greater BMI you have ,the harder it is to achieve a fast run ,it doesnt matter whether it is fat you are carrying or muscle development which is not required for running. The end result is that you are slower. Surely you can grasp this simple point. And hard riding such as cross country or steeplechasing , definately builds up muscle groups that are not required for running.
		
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Yes I understand the theory your are giving. But you are not providing me with good physiological evidence as to why this is true, or why it applies to pentathlon. 

On the other hand I've given you clear explanation of how the muscle function used in jumping is recruiting the same muscles in a similar way to running. Did you read any of that? 

Your reasoning is also muddled. i.e. that BMI makes speed difficult. Have you seen the sprinters? They are massive! Speed requires muscle strength and power. Those ahtletes have a very high BMI.

Endurance running however is indeed different. But you keep arguing that the run in the pentathlon is not endurance and I'm the one who doesn't understand 

Finally, who's talking about doing cross country or ateeplechasing? You are not doing cross country or steeplechasing, you are doing short show jumping rounds, so why would that even come into the discussion? I find your reasoning really hard to follow and it sounds like someone who doesn't really know what they're talking about. Perhaps you do know, but it doesn't come across like that.

I give up! Have a good evening.


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## Mike007 (14 August 2012)

BeesKnees said:



			On the other hand I've given you clear explanation of how the muscle function used in jumping is recruiting the same muscles in a similar way to running. Did you read any of that? 

.
		
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Yes I certainly read it and it left me wondering if you have ever ridden in any form of competetive jumping. I mentioned x country and steeplechasing because they are very clear examples of why it is not the way you claim . 99% of the physical effort is in maintaining ballance in a 2 point seat. The actual movement at a jump is a negligable effort in comparison. Tremendous strength is required but it certainly is not from fast twitch muscle. Any way ,you are not going to convince me that after 40 odd years directly or indirectly involved with sport and training and of which ,probably 30 were spent in fairly hard training personaly, that what I have observed is wrong.So have a good evening and think about it a bit.


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## Sparkles (14 August 2012)

Bestdogdash said:



			In no way can a 3km jog be described as an endurance event (unless you are very unfit or fat). Surely anyone who is fit enough to ride a horse properly could run/jog 3km ? I accept a 3km race run properly at pace does involve endurance, but not a jog !  If a person  can't jog 3km then they seriously need to have a conversation with themselves and sort it out. 

I would also like to say all this whining about the M. Pentathlon is rather boring. It is a wonderful sport. No one is forced to lend their horses, and the riding is significantly better than a lot I see at any BSJA competition, or indeed on videos posted on this site, all of which are met with 'well done you' 'ahw - lovely' type comments for the most appalling riding. Double standards ?
		
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If the riding standard shown in pentathlon riding, short of maybe one or two riders who do have more riding experience than others, is now claiming to be better than BSJA standard, then my god, reality check needed.
Forget the muscle and anatomy functions of an athlete [And just for kicks, no I could not in anyway run 3km! Yet, I can ride non-stop on various horses all day 8-9hours no problem so not a valid argument in my view on that.]. Try learning to realise when a canter is disunited going round a course, collecting the horse back onto it's haunches correct and setting it up to the fence on the correct stride, or clearing the 'airy' uprights cleanly! 
2 or 3 clear rounds in the mens last weekend, out of how many? If that was a standard BSJA class, that would be mortifying having 2 or 3 people in a jump off at that level in a class of that many!!!!
All this hype about it being strange horse to ride and only 20 minutes, is really NOT that big of a deal. It's a 1m-1m20 course. On previous BSJA horses and proven hunters, that should be a doddle for anyone less than an amateur. They know their job and at that height, should be genuine and experienced enough to cope with an amateur on them and get them round the course, albeit, knocking a few poles or taking dodgy strides from rider error. Pony club and college or university equestrian teams, the format is exactly the same as far as horse and rider matching is done - we were picked horses out of a hat at other teams centres and given 15-20 minutes warm-up before our rounds [XC or SJ and dressage] and expected results. Lacking standards were not tolerated and you were expected as a rider to be able to get that tune out of your horse to get round a course that height cleanly. 
Any Olympic BSJA rider could swap horses and do a round of 1m-1m20 cleanly.
It's an unwritten rule BSJA that almost any amateur could get up to the 1m30's sometimes on a genuine horse. It takes talant from both horse _and_rider to do the classes 1m40 and above.
If they want it to 'riding', then the element should be dressage. At least then they actually get marked on way of going, rider, accuracy, etc. And the only thing the horses legs can get knocked on is white plastic boards!


I could go on. But I'll leave it at that.


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## Nicnac (14 August 2012)

BeesKnees said:



			Speed requires muscle strength and power. Those ahtletes have a very high BMI.
		
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Not getting into the debate about fast muscles twitching, *BUT *delighted to read that I have the body of a sprinter - well, I have their BMI 

I am also having a conversation with myself - not hugely fat nor hugely unfit but can't run 3km due to shin splints and knackered knees.  

I do love a generalisation


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## armchair_rider (14 August 2012)

Haha said:



			I am having a serious conversation with myself

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I shut my mouth with a chocolate digestive


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## Mithras (14 August 2012)

Mike007 said:



			You may not be able to see how riding affects running ,but it does . Most of the work done in jumping is work to maintain a position, antagonistic muscle groups working to keep the body in ballance. None of this is the sort of explosive fast twitch effort of ,for example a sprinter. So from this point of view it is liable to make a runner one paced (slower).Add to this the fact that ,particularly in men, a large additional mass of muscle is being developed ,which is not required for running ,and is in effect dead weight to be carried. Furthermore, increased muscle mass in the lower leg has to be accelerated and decelerated with each stride. This saps a lot of energy. Whilst cross training by running is good for a rider , riding is definately not good for a serious runner.
		
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Well, at my best I was a sub 12 minute 3k/3000m runner (not elite level but enough to win a few low level races), and the latter half of my running career at my peak was combined with showjumping.  And that was when I set all my endurance running pbs (as opposed to track pbs over shorter distances).  I don't think it detrimental at all, I 'm not sure what you are referring to in developing a large additional muscle mass.  I do think the riding made me more efficient, another benefit is that going to 3 and 4 days shows away from home uses up so much energy, it tends to keep your weight down for running!

The only slight detrimental effect I find is that its hard but not impossible to do a good track session on the same day that I ride, or the day after a competition.  Its the same type of tiredness that I would get if I did a gym session first.

I know several other riders who are successful runners.  Your theory would also apply to cycling, but more so, yet triathletes like the Brownlees and Tim Don do sub 30 min 10ks!

As for the 3k distance, I suspect it is set at that for the following reasons:

- It sits well with the swim distance and doesn't tip the balance in favour of the run
- Its short enough for an athlete to train to a good level performance without having to train full time for one event
- 3k is a middle distance endurance event and doesn't overly favour pure endurance athletes who tend to be of a very specific body type.  The 3k allows all athletes to compete on as equal terms as possible, subject to training, as speed based middle distance athletes tend to carry more muscle mass than pure 10k runners.

And yes, of course 3k/3000m is an endurance event.  

As for the Modern Pentathlon, I do think it belongs in the Olympics, but the riding section should perhaps be given more weight, so as to ensure some of the more incompetent riders spend more time learning the discipline.  But overall, I think its very hard to reach a high level of competence in those disciplines - the modern pentathletes I know (who didn't make the team) are very talented runners performing at a high level indeed who have also been competitive swimmers and riders.


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## Mike007 (14 August 2012)

ChristmasSparkles said:



			If the riding standard shown in pentathlon riding, short of maybe one or two riders who do have more riding experience than others, is now claiming to be better than BSJA standard, then my god, reality check needed.
Forget the muscle and anatomy functions of an athlete [And just for kicks, no I could not in anyway run 3km! Yet, I can ride non-stop on various horses all day 8-9hours no problem so not a valid argument in my view on that.]. Try learning to realise when a canter is disunited going round a course, collecting the horse back onto it's haunches correct and setting it up to the fence on the correct stride, or clearing the 'airy' uprights cleanly! 
2 or 3 clear rounds in the mens last weekend, out of how many? If that was a standard BSJA class, that would be mortifying having 2 or 3 people in a jump off at that level in a class of that many!!!!
All this hype about it being strange horse to ride and only 20 minutes, is really NOT that big of a deal. It's a 1m-1m20 course. On previous BSJA horses and proven hunters, that should be a doddle for anyone less than an amateur. They know their job and at that height, should be genuine and experienced enough to cope with an amateur on them and get them round the course, albeit, knocking a few poles or taking dodgy strides from rider error. Pony club and college or university equestrian teams, the format is exactly the same as far as horse and rider matching is done - we were picked horses out of a hat at other teams centres and given 15-20 minutes warm-up before our rounds [XC or SJ and dressage] and expected results. Lacking standards were not tolerated and you were expected as a rider to be able to get that tune out of your horse to get round a course that height cleanly. 
Any Olympic BSJA rider could swap horses and do a round of 1m-1m20 cleanly.
It's an unwritten rule BSJA that almost any amateur could get up to the 1m30's sometimes on a genuine horse. It takes talant from both horse _and_rider to do the classes 1m40 and above.
If they want it to 'riding', then the element should be dressage. At least then they actually get marked on way of going, rider, accuracy, etc. And the only thing the horses legs can get knocked on is white plastic boards!


I could go on. But I'll leave it at that.
		
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You make some good points,but fundamentaly the problem remains that due to the scoring being weighted towards swimmers/runners, Mens MP is prdominantly athletes who couldnt quite cut it as swimmers or runners. Those from a riding background are seldom fast enough hence they just dont make it to the games.Even the shoot has now been bastardised into some "fairground" game.Oh and Mithras ,you say that 3k is an endurance event ,well with a time of sub 12 minutes it probably is for you. You would need to knock minutes off of that to even be in contention at MP.


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## Mithras (15 August 2012)

Mike007 said:



			You make some good points,but fundamentaly the problem remains that due to the scoring being weighted towards swimmers/runners, Mens MP is prdominantly athletes who couldnt quite cut it as swimmers or runners. Those from a riding background are seldom fast enough hence they just dont make it to the games.Even the shoot has now been bastardised into some "fairground" game.Oh and Mithras ,you say that 3k is an endurance event ,well with a time of sub 12 minutes it probably is for you. You would need to knock minutes off of that to even be in contention at MP.
		
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Gosh, that was rude! where did I suggest I was in contention for the Olympics? The modern pentatletes I know run around 10.30 on the track, but even my 11.28 might have got me on some countries teams if I was strong in the other 4 disciplines not that I've ever considered it.

3000m is definately an endurance event, im sorry to say that you don't really sound as if you know what you are talking about. I think you probably don't have much background in proper track training, and that explains your lack of speed in running - you didn't develop the necessary motor skills as a junior. You mention you have done a 3 hour marathon - this is a mediocre time for a man. Neither I think does the public particularly want to see mediocre standard club runners running 10k in 37 mins or so, so sorry I think 3k is a better distance for the mp. As for encouraging older competitors, the age dynamic in mp seems similar to atletics, although the oldest female competitor was 36.

one of the other problems mp must face is that its hardly an easy sport to participate in, due to the difficulties in organising it!


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## Mike007 (15 August 2012)

Sorry if you thought that was rude mithras ,it was merely a statement of fact. Back when the ponyclub tetrathlon was 3k ,that would have got about 600 points ,some pony club members were sub 10 minutes(and this is cross country not track. As for maraton running, its not so much that I did A maraton in under 3 hours ,but rather the fact that I could trot out a 3 hour marathon pretty well any time I wanted without training . I would often just go for a 26 mile run purely for the hell of it. I ran to keep fit for point to pointing but later it simply became a habit.I completely fail to follow your "logic" that raising the run to 10 k would fill it with mediocre runners. The point is that fencing shooting and riding skills do develop with age and runners tend to drift more into longer races as they get older . But it doesnt make them mediocre.


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## Carefreegirl (15 August 2012)

armchair_rider said:



			I shut my mouth with a chocolate digestive
		
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Quality 

Quote: You mention you have done a 3 hour marathon - this is a mediocre time for a man. 

Blimey ! My husband did the London marathon a couple of years ago in under 3 hours - I'm going to go down stairs now and tell him he's 'mediocre'
This obviously a fact because the first time he did it it took him 3hrs 5 mins - I married a failure


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## Mithras (15 August 2012)

Mike007 said:



			Sorry if you thought that was rude mithras ,it was merely a statement of fact. Back when the ponyclub tetrathlon was 3k ,that would have got about 600 points ,some pony club members were sub 10 minutes(and this is cross country not track. As for maraton running, its not so much that I did A maraton in under 3 hours ,but rather the fact that I could trot out a 3 hour marathon pretty well any time I wanted without training . I would often just go for a 26 mile run purely for the hell of it. I ran to keep fit for point to pointing but later it simply became a habit.I completely fail to follow your "logic" that raising the run to 10 k would fill it with mediocre runners. The point is that fencing shooting and riding skills do develop with age and runners tend to drift more into longer races as they get older . But it doesnt make them mediocre.
		
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Yes, lets talk facts.  Power of Ten gives Sam Murray's 1500m pb as 5.09, no 3000m pb but double it, assuming no loss of speed at all over double the distance, and it still doesn't give you your sub 10 minute 3k time.  And she won the silver medal last week!

Mhairi Spence, who finished 21st but was expected to place higher than Sam, has a 3000m pb listed of 11.12, though I'm pretty sure she has done sub 11.  There is a reason the GB selectors base squad selection on track times - because they are reliable and accurate.  Cross country times are irrelevant, as distances can be widely out and are often under-distance.  And might I suggest those sub 10 minute 3k runners, if female, that you claim to have witnessed, would have been filling the British athletics squad with those sort of times if they replicated them on the track - 9.30 odds would be the marker of a female athlete at elite level, and they would hardly be bothering with MP if they could run that fast.

When my husband did his one and only marathon in 2.43.33 (he's a triathlete), he was ranked 288th in the UK, according to Power of Ten.  Its hardly world beating.  I know quite a few elite level runners, ie sub 30 min 10k or sub 2.30 marathoners, who win local races and achieve regional representation, but they're too busy actually getting results to tell people how good they would be if they trained more.

I appreciate that you obviously think MP is an easy event and that people like you should represent the UK, but I think you are underestimating the standard, and over-estimating your own talent.  Fair enough if you actually go down to your local track, do the training to get your times down (ie something like 20 x 400m in 65-68s, which is what the local 10k winners are doing) but I don't really want to see athletes of the standard who you can see at any local race in the top thirty or so in the Olympics, much as I don't want to see novice horseriders.  Your 3 hour marathon is actually only just under 7 minute mile pace, whereas an 11.28 3000m is around 6 minute miling.

The facts are that there are relatively few fast 3000m runners and rather a lot of 3 hour male marathon runners.  Furthermore, HHO does seem to feature rather a lot of people who claim miraculous running feats on little or no training, but I never see them listed in Athletics Weekly as winning races or with a Power of Ten ranking. 

Most of the athletes winning longer races such as marathons, come from a track background and go up in distance, not because they develop more stamina, but because they lose speed as they get older and longer distances races are run at a slower pace.  There are however plenty of endurance runners aged 21-22, UK domestic endurance running is currently dominated by Steph Twell, Charlotte Purdue, etc.. 

 You are simply not going to come anywhere near winning even the most provincial UK marathon with a time of 3 hours.  Hence my mediocre comment.  For example, in last year's Luton Marathon, which was won in a disappointing 2.35, which is slower than the Olympic qualifying time for the women by around 7 minutes, you would have placed only 25th, and this is hardly a big marathon. 

There is also no reason to say fencing and riding skills develop with age.  Some people are more talented than others and learn things more quickly.  And a good runner will run a good 3k at any reasonable age - look at Helen Clitheroe winning her first European Championship at 3000m at the age of 39 this year!

I don't really think changing the run to 10k would add to the quality of the event.  It would be dull to watch, and I'm not sure how it would fit into the Olympic scheduling.


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## Foxy9212 (15 August 2012)

MissMincePie&Brandy said:



			There would also have been a pretty high death rate of animals used in the original Olympics.  

Times have changed, and no one wants to see horses having their teeth pulled out, huge unbalanced dead weights bouncing off those poor horses spines, poor horses being driven into 1.2m fences on the worst possible line, etc, etc. Some horses became visibly distressed.  

Perhaps Pentahlon should do prelim dressage test instead .  I think most of those riders could just about manage a prelim without causing too much distress to those horses.
		
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I would imagine there would be no time for dressage tests; it seemed the show-jumping element was designed to be finished in the least possible amount of time.  Perhaps it would have been better to allow a more generous time for the course to avoid the unedifying sight of so many 'riders' hurtling round, completely out of control, putting both themselves and their mounts in danger.  The commentator went to great lengths to tell the viewers it was the riding that was being judged and not the horses' ability, also that it didn't matter about poles being rolled.  It seemed to me that poles being rolled was the only criterion as there were no penalties for hanging on by reins or jagging of mouths. 

I saw the riding and combined events only but I did think those two/three looked very amateurish and not in the least Olympic, a pity as I have huge admiration for multi-talented athletes (being not one of them). 

Fox


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## Mike007 (15 August 2012)

Mithras said:



			Yes, lets talk facts.  Power of Ten gives Sam Murray's 1500m pb as 5.09, no 3000m pb but double it, assuming no loss of speed at all over double the distance, and it still doesn't give you your sub 10 minute 3k time.  And she won the silver medal last week!

Mhairi Spence, who finished 21st but was expected to place higher than Sam, has a 3000m pb listed of 11.12, though I'm pretty sure she has done sub 11.  There is a reason the GB selectors base squad selection on track times - because they are reliable and accurate.  Cross country times are irrelevant, as distances can be widely out and are often under-distance.  And might I suggest those sub 10 minute 3k runners, if female, that you claim to have witnessed, would have been filling the British athletics squad with those sort of times if they replicated them on the track - 9.30 odds would be the marker of a female athlete at elite level, and they would hardly be bothering with MP if they could run that fast.

When my husband did his one and only marathon in 2.43.33 (he's a triathlete), he was ranked 288th in the UK, according to Power of Ten.  Its hardly world beating.  I know quite a few elite level runners, ie sub 30 min 10k or sub 2.30 marathoners, who win local races and achieve regional representation, but they're too busy actually getting results to tell people how good they would be if they trained more.

I appreciate that you obviously think MP is an easy event and that people like you should represent the UK, but I think you are underestimating the standard, and over-estimating your own talent.  Fair enough if you actually go down to your local track, do the training to get your times down (ie something like 20 x 400m in 65-68s, which is what the local 10k winners are doing) but I don't really want to see athletes of the standard who you can see at any local race in the top thirty or so in the Olympics, much as I don't want to see novice horseriders.  Your 3 hour marathon is actually only just under 7 minute mile pace, whereas an 11.28 3000m is around 6 minute miling.

The facts are that there are relatively few fast 3000m runners and rather a lot of 3 hour male marathon runners.  Furthermore, HHO does seem to feature rather a lot of people who claim miraculous running feats on little or no training, but I never see them listed in Athletics Weekly as winning races or with a Power of Ten ranking. 

  There are however plenty of endurance runners aged 21-22, UK domestic endurance running is currently dominated by Steph Twell, Charlotte Purdue, etc.. 

 You are simply not going to come anywhere near winning even the most provincial UK marathon with a time of 3 hours.  Hence my mediocre comment.  For example, in last year's Luton Marathon, which was won in a disappointing 2.35, which is slower than the Olympic qualifying time for the women by around 7 minutes, you would have placed only 25th, and this is hardly a big marathon. 

There is also no reason to say fencing and riding skills develop with age.  Some people are more talented than others and learn things more quickly.  And a good runner will run a good 3k at any reasonable age - look at Helen Clitheroe winning her first European Championship at 3000m at the age of 39 this year!

I don't really think changing the run to 10k would add to the quality of the event.  It would be dull to watch, and I'm not sure how it would fit into the Olympic scheduling.
		
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I can see your background knowlege of tetrathlon and pentathlon is a bit scanty.At the time when the pony club were running 3k (and I believe ,but am not certain MP was 5k)There were no women in this sport.As I have said ,I did not run marathon distances to compete I ran for fitness. And lets face it ,a sub 3 hour 26 miles is about the same pace as your 12 minute 3k (which incidentaly is why I said that for you it was an endurance distance. ) You would also probably just as easily do 6k in 24 minutes. It is not a derogatory remark simply a fact.Incidentaly I have absolutely no interest in what you believe regarding my own performance over the years .What I have been trying to explain is that cross training ,riding tends to make runners slower and more one paced.Quite how you have managed to twist this in your mind the way you have is a complete mystery to me. And incidentaly ,I do know what is involved in Modern Pentathlon having competed may years ago ,and incidentaly I still coach shooting.


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## Mithras (15 August 2012)

Mike007 said:



			I can see your background knowlege of tetrathlon and pentathlon is a bit scanty.At the time when the pony club were running 3k (and I believe ,but am not certain MP was 5k)There were no women in this sport.As I have said ,I did not run marathon distances to compete I ran for fitness. And lets face it ,a sub 3 hour 26 miles is about the same pace as your 12 minute 3k (which incidentaly is why I said that for you it was an endurance distance. ) You would also probably just as easily do 6k in 24 minutes. It is not a derogatory remark simply a fact.Incidentaly I have absolutely no interest in what you believe regarding my own performance over the years .What I have been trying to explain is that cross training ,riding tends to make runners slower and more one paced.Quite how you have managed to twist this in your mind the way you have is a complete mystery to me. And incidentaly ,I do know what is involved in Modern Pentathlon having competed may years ago ,and incidentaly I still coach shooting.
		
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http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Mansplain

Actually, I know one of the Olympic pentathletes rather well ;-)


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## Koala Kate (15 August 2012)

Just give up Mike. Lol


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## Mike007 (15 August 2012)

Koala Kate said:



			Just give up Mike. Lol
		
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I guess its that bloody stubborn streak that helps me run stupid distances


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