# Line breeding!!!!!!!



## Patchworkpony (18 April 2016)

I was about to go and choose a working cocker spaniel pup when I decided out of interest to look up its breeding. I was totally shocked to see both sides of the parents  were closely line bred i.e. brother on sister. I then looked up the breeding on all the other studs dogs - same thing. Then I went to other 'proper' cocker websites and checked the various bloodlines - exactly the same thing. Well I'm sad and shocked as I truly thought working dogs were free from this act against nature. How wrong I was. It appears that every dog breed has been 'engineered' to satisfy human greed and fashion; just think of the poor little KCCs for example. I got out of Welsh cobs because 'line breeding' has ruined the breed. OK it is just about but barely acceptable in rare breeds such as Exmoors, Fells and Dales but why ruin our lovely family pets?

My vet told me there isn't a single dog breed now that isn't riddled with disease and genetic problems. What happened to lovely straightforward mongrels or cross breeds we knew as children years ago? Oh I know - they are classed as designer dogs now and cost a small fortune. Call me old fashioned and I'm sure that professional dog breeders will come up with all sorts of justifiable reasons as to why incest in dogs is perfectly acceptable, but in human beings it can incur a prison sentence. Quite obviously there is a good reason for that. Village idiots are thankfully rare these days!


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## MurphysMinder (18 April 2016)

That is actually inbreeding!   Line breeding is when dogs further back in the pedigree are doubled up on to try and strengthen a characteristic.   The offspring of a mating between a brother and sister cannot be registered by the Kennel Club unless for exceptional or scientifically proven health reasons .


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## Dry Rot (18 April 2016)

Inbreeding/line breeding does not cause genetic defects. Poor selection of breeding stock does. Nature is continually experimenting and it is the successful experiments that survive to breed. A responsible breeder follows Nature and will only breed from stock that is as near 100% perfect as possible.

Google Chillingham Wild Cattle for just one example of successful inbreeding. There are plenty more. 

Against Nature? I've never yet seen a rabbit on a bicycle. It is two hops and a jump!

I am not advocating inbreeding/line breeding but rather warning against those who don't breed responsibly. I'd say look at what the breeder produces, don't be misled by pedigrees (they are easy enough to falsify!), and look at show/field trial records with a degree of cynicism.


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## Patchworkpony (18 April 2016)

MurphysMinder said:



			That is actually inbreeding!   Line breeding is when dogs further back in the pedigree are doubled up on to try and strengthen a characteristic.   The offspring of a mating between a brother and sister cannot be registered by the Kennel Club unless for exceptional or scientifically proven health reasons .
		
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 So is 4th generation back where brother mated with sister inbreeding or line breeding? Either way the offspring were registered.


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## Patchworkpony (18 April 2016)

Dry Rot said:



			Inbreeding/line breeding does not cause genetic defects. Poor selection of breeding stock does. Nature is continually experimenting and it is the successful experiments that survive to breed. A responsible breeder follows Nature and will only breed from stock that is as near 100% perfect as possible.
		
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In nature - herds and pack leaders drive away the young males to find their own females so there is very little chance of inbreeding.


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## Patchworkpony (18 April 2016)

Dry Rot said:



			A responsible breeder follows Nature and will only breed from stock that is as near 100% perfect as possible.
		
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 So if Prince George mated with Princess Charlotte that's OK then. Sorry I didn't realise.


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## Alec Swan (18 April 2016)

The main principle of Line Breeding,  and which I've applied,  is that if we see a dog which we fancy then we have him as a Grandsire on the sire's side and a Great-Grandsire on the dam's side.  It also works,  so I'm advised with horses.

The breeding of Cockers though,  and for reasons which I don't understand,  has the seemingly unhealthy aspect of in-breeding,  having little effect.  The only influence that I can see is that by generation,  they most certainly lose size.  I attended a Trial about 3 years ago,  and there was a man of serious repute both as a Trainer and Breeder.  He had the most exquisite Cocker bitch and I took her to be about 6 months of age.  She was as perfect,  conformationally as one could wish for,  and when I enquired as to her age,  I was told that she was 2 years.  Though perfectly proportioned,  she was minuscule and probably weighed no more than 15lbs.  The shrinking of breeds (in stature) is the only downside,  that I can see.

Just about any Cocker of worth has the 4 main Wernffrwd bitches,  Kathleen,  her dam Silk and her dam Ci Twt,  at their base,  and with derivatives on both sides of any pedigree,  though generally as the Dam Line.

Take for instance the dog Maesydderwen Scimitar.  Both his parents were sired by Maesydderwen Kestrel and he has a breeding coefficient of some 30%.  Scimitar is held aloft as a remarkable sire of brood bitches,  and the bulk of those dogs which are succeeding today will more often than not be out of a Scimitar bitch.

I phoned a lady from the KC a couple of years ago,  who was their authority,  and asked her if she could explain to me the principles of the BC thinking.  In short,  she couldn't.  It seems to have very little to do with Cockers,  though just why,  I'm not sure!  VERY few if any breeders of Working Cockers bother to health test their dogs,  and from the many hundreds that I've viewed over the years,  not one dog seemed to be anything other than rude with health!

As Dry Rot seems to suggest,  the principles of breeding are better addressed by using sound stock,  than by paying too much attention 'theory'. (If I've misquoted you DR,  I apologise!). 

Alec.


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## MurphysMinder (18 April 2016)

Patchworkpony said:



			So is 4th generation back where brother mated with sister inbreeding or line breeding? Either way the offspring were registered.
		
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Brother to sister would always be inbreeding   Line breeding would be if say the dogs had thesame grandfather on the sire and dam side.   I think the KC have only  clamped down on close in breeding in recent years so possibly 4 generations back would be okay to register.  You would certainly struggle to register offspring of a brother to sister mating nowadays.


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## Patchworkpony (18 April 2016)

MurphysMinder said:



			Brother to sister would always be inbreeding   Line breeding would be if say the dogs had thesame grandfather on the sire and dam side.   I think the KC have only got clamped down on close in breeding in recent years so possibly 4 generations back would be okay to register.  You would certainly struggle to register offspring of a brother to sister mating nowadays.
		
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 Thank you that explains that.


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## MurphysMinder (18 April 2016)

Alec,  I don't know much about cockers,  though do like the working cockers I see at agility competitions.  Do you have any thought on AMS (Acral Mutilation Syndrome), which seems to be causing some concern among working cocker folk?  I believe a dna test has recently been approved ,  which hopefully will control the problem if breeders use the test.


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## Patchworkpony (18 April 2016)

Alec Swan said:



			The main principle of Line Breeding,  and which I've applied,  is that if we see a dog which we fancy then we have him as a Grandsire on the sire's side and a Great-Grandsire on the dam's side.  It also works,  so I'm advised with horses.

The breeding of Cockers though,  and for reasons which I don't understand,  has the seemingly unhealthy aspect of in-breeding,  having little effect.  The only influence that I can see is that by generation,  they most certainly lose size.  I attended a Trial about 3 years ago,  and there was a man of serious repute both as a Trainer and Breeder.  He had the most exquisite Cocker bitch and I took her to be about 6 months of age.  She was as perfect,  conformationally as one could wish for,  and when I enquired as to her age,  I was told that she was 2 years.  Though perfectly proportioned,  she was minuscule and probably weighed no more than 15lbs.  The shrinking of breeds (in stature) is the only downside,  that I can see.

Just about any Cocker of worth has the 4 main Wernffrwd bitches,  Kathleen,  her dam Silk and her dam Ci Twt,  at their base,  and with derivatives on both sides of any pedigree,  though generally as the Dam Line.

Take for instance the dog Maesydderwen Scimitar.  Both his parents were sired by Maesydderwen Kestrel and he has a breeding coefficient of some 30%.  Scimitar is held aloft as a remarkable sire of brood bitches,  and the bulk of those dogs which are succeeding today will more often than not be out of a Scimitar bitch.

I phoned a lady from the KC a couple of years ago,  who was their authority,  and asked her if she could explain to me the principles of the BC thinking.  In short,  she couldn't.  It seems to have very little to do with Cockers,  though just why,  I'm not sure!  VERY few if any breeders of Working Cockers bother to health test their dogs,  and from the many hundreds that I've viewed over the years,  not one dog seemed to be anything other than rude with health!

As Dry Rot seems to suggest,  the principles of breeding are better addressed by using sound stock,  than by paying too much attention 'theory'. (If I've misquoted you DR,  I apologise!). 

Alec.
		
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 Thank you Alec - Maesydderwen Scimitar is one of the main sires I am picking up on. You say The WCs aren't affected but some are really nervy and hyperactive. Surely that is a result of interbreeding - just like the modern Welsh cobs which used to be a genuine working animals and are now highly unpredictable and often downright dangerous.


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## blackcob (18 April 2016)

We've had a similar discussion recently, I'll see if I can find the thread - I was surprised and disappointed to learn that a high level of inbreeding, overuse of popular sires and an almost complete lack of health testing seemed to be acceptable for so many breeders of working cockers. 

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?716688-Tell-me-about-show-cockers


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## monte1 (18 April 2016)

really interesting thread, I have had working cockers for several years now and bred a few times from my lovely bitch 
( who we sadly lost a little earlier this year :-( )

I have two cockers at the moment and Maesydderwen Scimitar is the sire of one and the grandsire of the other.

I am just really a hobby breeder, not anything serious and we work all our dogs in the shoot season. When deciding which sire to use I spoke with the breeder of my dogs and always carefully checked the breeding on both sides and did my very best to ensure no defects and not too closely interbred. but as Alec says Working Cockers by and large appear to be hardy tough and with little problems health wise.

I often wonder if this is because they are bred from good stock to be tough and strong and resilient in the field rather than just for their looks or for the show ring , as their show cocker equivalent often seems to be ?


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## Alec Swan (18 April 2016)

Patchworkpony said:



			Thank you Alec - Maesydderwen Scimitar is one of the main sires I am picking up on. You say The WCs aren't affected but some are really nervy and hyperactive. Surely that is a result of interbreeding - &#8230;&#8230;.. .
		
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We have to remember,  that just as with working sheepdogs,  we tend to focus on the 'cream' of the best,  and it's the vital few months of interactions with humans which can create the character of the dog and how it deals with the pressures of training.  Breeding will,  obviously,  have a part to play,  but if we look at trainable,  bid-able and sane parents,  then we have a chance to replicate what we're breeding 'from'.  All so often,  without the input from us and at an early age,  we can end up with the nervous dog, &#8230;&#8230;.. most trainers want the hyperactive,  working on the basis that we can always 'stop' a dog,  but dealing with those which are a bag of nerves (and there IS a world of difference),  is rarely worth the effort.

Breeding working dogs is rather like breeding racehorses in that there are no certainties!  The near perfect dog,  had it been in the wrong hands,  could just as easily be a liability, &#8230;&#8230;.. BUT,  who's to say that either owner should breed with it?  A point of which I'm not certain.

Alec.


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## ycbm (18 April 2016)

Contrary to what has been said above, inbreeding does cause genetic defects and that is why incest is against the law. The same can be seen when you look at any human community where it is normal for close relatives to marry. 

Genetic defects are copying mistakes.When you start with two sets of DNA that are very similar, the likelihood of getting copying mistakes that will interact and cause genetic defects in the offspring is much higher than if you start with two dissimilar sets of DNA.


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## Patchworkpony (18 April 2016)

ycbm said:



			Contrary to what has been said above, inbreeding does cause genetic defects and that is why incest is against the law. The same can be seen when you look at any human community where it is normal for close relatives to marry. 

Genetic defects are copying mistakes.When you start with two sets of DNA that are very similar, the likelihood of getting copying mistakes that will interact and cause genetic defects in the offspring is much higher than if you start with two dissimilar sets of DNA.
		
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 At last the voice of reason! I'm so glad you are on my wavelength - we will have to get some T shirts made.


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## Dry Rot (18 April 2016)

ycbm said:



			Contrary to what has been said above, inbreeding does cause genetic defects and that is why incest is against the law. The same can be seen when you look at any human community where it is normal for close relatives to marry. 

Genetic defects are copying mistakes.When you start with two sets of DNA that are very similar, the likelihood of getting copying mistakes that will interact and cause genetic defects in the offspring is much higher than if you start with two dissimilar sets of DNA.
		
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I think you've contradicted yourself there! It is not the close breeding that CREATES defects, it just increases the mathematical probablility of replicating them! If the faults are not there in the first place, how can inbreeding increase their occurrence?

If anyone had bothered to look at that link for the Chillingham Cattle, I think they'd have seen that they had been kept inside a walled enclosure for over 600 years and left to their own devices. They are remarkable free from genetic defects, thus disproving the theory that inbreeding causes genetic problems.

Once again, I repeat, I am not an advocate of inbreeding. But it does seem to be misunderstood. So let's get it right.

Line breeding is when inbreeding works. Inbreeding is when line breeding doesn't work. Got it now?


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## Dry Rot (18 April 2016)

As for working gundogs getting smaller, I suspect the culprit here is field trialing. Field trial judges like to see action. "Style" they call it. A small dog appears to be more active and faster than a large dog, but that is not necessarily so. So they unconsciously pick the smaller dogs as winners. Breeders do like a fair smattering of FTChs in the pedigree.

I saw this in Irish setters back in the '70s. Then smaller dogs started to win and the breed lost size. Same thing with English setters. Lord Kimball of Altnaharra had a strain of English setters that were the size of small donkeys, which is exactly what you want for long heather as a small dog is lost! But they never did much in trials because they weren't flashy enough. They are now extinct.


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## Alec Swan (18 April 2016)

ycbm said:



			Contrary to what has been said above, inbreeding does cause genetic defects and that is why incest is against the law. &#8230;&#8230;.. .
		
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With humans,  near mutations will all so often be the result of direct matings between 'immediate' relatives.  Just as a late born human child to a woman may face life with difficulties.  It doesn't actually work quite like that with animals.  Consider DR's quoted Chillingham cattle with 600 years and no introductions of fresh influence.  It is generally the case that when farmed animals have,  for instance,  males covering their dams,  immediate siblings breeding with each other and any other form of what we would consider incest,  then perfectly normal young are born.  I can't explain why it should be peculiar to humans either!

Birds kept in captivity will also breed with parent to young and young to each other,  and again without any apparent differences in the produce.  Don't ask me why,  because I haven't got a clue,  but it does throw up huge question marks over the value of Breeding Coefficients,  I think.

I should add,  that even though I live in Norfolk,  I have never used a breeding programme which would have relatives as parents! 

Alec.


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## Alec Swan (18 April 2016)

MurphysMinder said:



			Alec,  I don't know much about cockers,  though do like the working cockers I see at agility competitions.  Do you have any thought on AMS (Acral Mutilation Syndrome), which seems to be causing some concern among working cocker folk?  I believe a dna test has recently been approved ,  which hopefully will control the problem if breeders use the test.
		
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I'd never even heard of AMS until reading your post.  I've now done a bit of swatting up and it seems that though tests are now available to separate those dogs which are infected or are carriers,  I can't see any connection (unless I've missed the point),  where Line-breeding would be likely to in any way make matters worse.  Obviously,  breeding from affected parents would be a huge risk.

Consider H/D in Springers;  40 years ago it was unheard of.  Few would use direct relatives for breeding Springers,  so how or why are they now so afflicted?  It cannot be as a result of Line-breeding.  For me it's the million-dollar question,  and one which I've yet to have answered,  along with the fact that despite medical and testing improvements,  the situation seems to be no better,  and has now spread to other breeds.

I'm more than happy to be told and to learn,  but as yet,  despite my modest research,  all that seems available is a collection of possibilities.

Alec.


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## druid (18 April 2016)

Alec, do me a favour and take a good look at the movement, hips and forelimb conformation of the spaniels at the next test or trial you're at. Some of them are quite frankly shocking (and I say that as someone who works, trials and breeds ESS). Also, there is vast under diagnosis of HD and ED in spaniels - two fold, either the dogs are fobbed off as "a bit stiff" as they're so damn stoic about it or if the animal is xrayed and it's a poor result the xrays never get sent to the BVA as it's not compulsory and the result is swept under the rug. I'm guilty of the later, I've had a dog with an estimated score double the breed average from a FTCh x FTCh mating where one parent was also the British champion, I didn't send the results to the BVA (why waste sixty pounds when I knew myself looking at the films they were shockingly bad) and I just quietly removed him from the breeding population. The problems are there, a lot of us are turning a blind eye. I think the screening is creeping in - lab breeders are ahead of us in this respect and openly advertise their dogs health status.

AMS is a growing problem in cockers - there's now 9 confirmed affected dogs s tested by Anatgene and a growing list of carriers. The fact that Rytex kennels went to the bother of testing Mallowdale Gun and Mallowdale x Factor for AMS and advertising their clear status tells you it is an issue in the breed.


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## MurphysMinder (18 April 2016)

Alec I wasn't attributing AMS to line or in breeding, just asking your thoughts on it as it seems to be causing concern in the breed, as druid has confirmed.


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## Alec Swan (18 April 2016)

MurphysMinder said:



			Alec I wasn't attributing AMS to line or in breeding, just asking your thoughts on it as it seems to be causing concern in the breed, as druid has confirmed.
		
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And thank you Druid,  I'll reply later.  MM,  I haven't the faintest idea.  Sorry if I misread your post!

My rather basic thoughts are that we make too good a job of rearing the pups and so the problems are being fostered.  It seems to me to be the only available or possible reason, for the accelerating problems.

Alec.


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## ycbm (18 April 2016)

Dry Rot said:



			I think you've contradicted yourself there! It is not the close breeding that CREATES defects, it just increases the mathematical probablility of replicating them! If the faults are not there in the first place, how can inbreeding increase their occurrence?

If anyone had bothered to look at that link for the Chillingham Cattle, I think they'd have seen that they had been kept inside a walled enclosure for over 600 years and left to their own devices. They are remarkable free from genetic defects, thus disproving the theory that inbreeding causes genetic problems.

Once again, I repeat, I am not an advocate of inbreeding. But it does seem to be misunderstood. So let's get it right.

Line breeding is when inbreeding works. Inbreeding is when line breeding doesn't work. Got it now? 

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Alec Swan said:



			With humans,  near mutations will all so often be the result of direct matings between 'immediate' relatives.  Just as a late born human child to a woman may face life with difficulties.  It doesn't actually work quite like that with animals.  Consider DR's quoted Chillingham cattle with 600 years and no introductions of fresh influence.  It is generally the case that when farmed animals have,  for instance,  males covering their dams,  immediate siblings breeding with each other and any other form of what we would consider incest,  then perfectly normal young are born.  I can't explain why it should be peculiar to humans either!

Birds kept in captivity will also breed with parent to young and young to each other,  and again without any apparent differences in the produce.  Don't ask me why,  because I haven't got a clue,  but it does throw up huge question marks over the value of Breeding Coefficients,  I think.

I should add,  that even though I live in Norfolk,  I have never used a breeding programme which would have relatives as parents! 

Alec.
		
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I believe you are both wrong. In breeding does create mutations causing genetic problems. It may not create more mutations, but it creates more mutations that cause problems.

Take HWSS in Connemara ponies. It requires a copy from both parents. It probably arose from a mutation in only one animal. So how did it get into a very large segment of the Connemara population?  Because unscrupulous breeders were in breeding. 

And it's not limited to humans. Animals with two heads or no skeleton (both of which I've seen in father on daughter sheep matings) are born dead or die at birth. Puppies are knocked on the head.  Children with serous defects are kept alive by whatever means are available, so we see them.


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## ycbm (18 April 2016)

http://scholar.google.co.uk/scholar...ved=0ahUKEwjnn9XO3pjMAhXIuRoKHe1wC_gQgQMIGTAA


Alec read a few of these if you think it doesn't happen in birds.


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## Patchworkpony (18 April 2016)

Well - this is certainly turning into an interesting thread. Thanks everyone.


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## Alec Swan (18 April 2016)

ycbm said:



			..

Take HWSS in Connemara ponies. It requires a copy from both parents. It probably arose from a mutation in only one animal. So how did it get into a very large segment of the Connemara population?  Because unscrupulous breeders were in breeding. 

.. .
		
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Affected parents are the problem,  and whether line bred or from opposite ends of the world,  the result is the same.  A GSD with rotten hips put to a Labrador which also has rotten hips will be likely to produce pups which are similarly affected.  Parents with flaws will pass on those defects and to simply blame line breeding is a mistake.

There is probably no other breed of dog (which I know of) which has been line bred for the last 30-40 years to the level of Cockers.  Can you explain the current level of physically well rounded dogs which we mostly have?  No HD?  I wonder why.  Springers which now have HD fairly well established have a huge gene-pool,  line breeding is 'unusual',  but they're none the less inflicted with the complaint.  Labradors,  again rarely line bred,  and just look at the previous state of them as a breed.

I'm sorry,  but to lay the blame of heritable complaints at the door of line breeding,  really doesn't make for any sense,  at all!

Alec.


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## druid (18 April 2016)

I'm certainly not blaming line breeding but to try to pretend diseases or genetic conditions don't exist in the breed is ridiculous. Springers and Cockers have the same average hip score by the way so the breeds are equally as prone to dysplasia.


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## Alec Swan (18 April 2016)

druid said:



			&#8230;&#8230;.. to try to pretend diseases or genetic conditions don't exist in the breed is ridiculous. &#8230;&#8230;.. .
		
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Who has disagreed with this?

Alec.


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## ycbm (19 April 2016)

Affected parents are the problem, and whether line bred or from opposite ends of the world, the result is the same.
		
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This is correct, but the question is how the parents get affected in the first place.

When an animal is conceived, it takes copies of half of each parents genes. In taking a copy of such a long chain of letters, mistakes are always made. Sometimes those mistakes are good (which is how we get evolution). Sometimes those mistakes are bad.

If two animals mate who already share a good percentage of their genes then the likelihood of two copying errors being made which interact in the offspring to produce a serious defect are very much higher than a similar problem occurring in two animals whose genes are very different.

That's how the defect arises in the parent in the first place. More often in in bred animals.  And in breeding will then make sure it carries on.

Careful selection of the parents will limit risk, but the more genes the pairing have in common, the higher the risk.


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## Bellasophia (19 April 2016)

Inbreeding versus line breeding..

http://bowlingsite.mcf.com/genetics/inbreeding.html

Inbreeding increases the probability of defective( recessive) genes being paired up and thus expressed.Normally out crosses will cover these recessive genes ,since the offspring wil be carriers rather than double carriers of the unwanted trait.
SOme examples quoted,such as rearing birds in captivity successfully ,heavily inbred,simply don't produce a large enough population for the results to be significant.If these captive birds were repeatedly bred,generation after generation then I believe any genetic defects they carried would eventually become more apparent( i.e. Expressed) and the line would detriorate.


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## ycbm (19 April 2016)

This is like the argument as to whether two off pring of a mare are a half brother and sister.

Within dog breeding, people consider line breeding and in breeding to be completely separate. But the fact is that line breeding is a form of in breeding at the lesser end of the scale.


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## Patchworkpony (19 April 2016)

ycbm said:



			But the fact is that line breeding is a form of in breeding at the lesser end of the scale.
		
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 Exactly! If you translate these principles into human form then so called line breeding becomes dangerous to our species - so why is it acceptable in animals?


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## ycbm (19 April 2016)

Patchworkpony said:



			Exactly! If you translate these principles into human form then so called line breeding becomes dangerous to our species - so why is it acceptable in animals?
		
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Because we knock the obviously bad ones on the head at birth.


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## ycbm (19 April 2016)

Bellasophia said:



			Inbreeding increases the probability of defective( recessive) genes being paired up and thus expressed.Normally out crosses will cover these recessive genes ,since the offspring wil be carriers rather than double carriers of the unwanted trait.
		
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This is true but you are completely ignoring the point that in breeding increases the risk of NEW mutations. 

These recessive genes all started in a copying mistake somewhere, and in breeding increases the risk of both new recessive problems, like HWSS in Connemaras, or ones which require only one copy like HYPP from the Quarter horse Impressive, who was himself inbred and is the known source of every case of this dreadful disease.


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## Bellasophia (19 April 2016)

I've not found any evidence to say inbreeding causes the gene to mutate...rather the increased incidence of the recessive gene recurring in an inbred pedigree is going to increase the chances of two recessive  genes being paired up ,and thus expressed in the offspring produced from these crosses..

Can you post a link that shows the Inbreeding actually causes mutation?


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## Alec Swan (19 April 2016)

druid said:



			Alec, do me a favour and take a good look at the movement, hips and forelimb conformation of the spaniels at the next test or trial you're at. Some of them are quite frankly shocking &#8230;&#8230;.. .
		
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I've been 'watching' spaniels in general for 40 years,  and whilst the change has been slow,  and almost imperceptible,  so we only have to look back say 20 years and see that now a stylish and free moving dog is hard to find.  I do agree with you though that there's still a 'head in the sand' attitude to dogs which are clearly wrong in their movement and way of going.  It's right that all breeds of working dog should evolve,  but the simple fact is that this evolvement is now all too often,  a form of regression,  in my view.

One interesting observation is that back in the 1970s,  Springers with cabriolet fronts were a common occurrence,  but now they seem to have straightened up,  in the main.  

Cockers though are still being bred form which have 'shot' jaws,  with many of the top trial people accepting it.  I went to buy pups last year and from two very well known trial men-breeders,  and all that were left of the litters had poor bites.  I pointed out the flaws to both and was met with a shrug of the shoulders.

It's also obvious with Cockers that there has been an outside influence in the breeding of them,  with judging by the style and movement of some,  there is a clear influence of other breeds of dog being used.  Whether this is a bad thing or not,  time will tell.

I'm not prepared to comment on Rytex!

Alec.


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## Dry Rot (19 April 2016)

Completely agree with Bellasophia.

How many racing greyhounds have hip problems?


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## satinbaze (19 April 2016)

If you are interested in in breeding coefficient then go into the kennel club website and you can enter registered name of sire and dam and it will calculate the % of inbreeding using all known dogs in the pedigree from the beginning of registration. The only draw back is where dogs are not KC registered or imports which can lead to a "false" low coefficient


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## Alec Swan (19 April 2016)

Dry Rot said:



			&#8230;&#8230;..

How many racing greyhounds have hip problems?
		
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Not one that I've ever known.  Infact,  never have I known any greyhound to have any form of skeletal problems which would be likely to be genetic by origin.  Perhaps they exist,  but as I say,  never witnessed by me.

Alec.


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## Bellasophia (19 April 2016)

Dry Rot said:



			Completely agree with Bellasophia.

How many racing greyhounds have hip problems?
		
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( Thankyou dry rot.)
Apparently very few greyhounds have problems with hip dysplasia
However they so have a high incidence of osteosarcoma..the guru vet of greyhounds in USA ,dr couto,discusses osteosarcoma here ..
is it genetic or a result of environmental issues...eg repeatedly pounding   excercise trauma from the circular track they run?
http://www.coutovetconsultants.com/blog/osteosarcoma-of-the-hip-in.html


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## Dry Rot (19 April 2016)

Bellasophia said:



			( Thankyou dry rot.)
Apparently very few greyhounds have problems with hip dysplasia
However they so have a high incidence of osteosarcoma..the guru vet of greyhounds in USA ,dr couto,discusses osteosarcoma here ..
is it genetic or a result of environmental issues...eg repeatedly pounding   excercise trauma from the circular track they run?
http://www.coutovetconsultants.com/blog/osteosarcoma-of-the-hip-in.html

Click to expand...

Well, a geneticist would say the PROPENSITY for the breed to get this defect is obviously genetic! But do breeders of racing greyhounds really select for dogs which live a long life?


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## Cinnamontoast (19 April 2016)

I'm pretty sure I read somewhere recently that inbreeding increases genetic issues (or propensity to them) by 8% compared to the more usual potential of 3%. I'm also pretty sure that this was in the Daily Fail article about the mother who met the son she'd had adopted many years ago and is now having a relationship with, so I could just be talking nonsense. :eek3:

Maybe inbreeding or line breeding is to blame for the persistent issue of undershot jaws I see in all the poo crosses I see at the local groomer's. 

One of my springers has hip dysplasia. I don't breed, so we didn't send the plates to the BVA, but they ain't pretty


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## Alec Swan (20 April 2016)

cinnamontoast said:



			I'm pretty sure I read somewhere recently that inbreeding increases genetic issues (or propensity to them) by 8% compared to the more usual potential of 3%. &#8230;&#8230;.. 

Click to expand...

I often wonder if the figures that we see quoted haven't been simply plucked out of the air!  Of course,  if we breed from two dogs which share an identical flaw,  we run a high risk of replicating the problem.  Few would deny that,  but the main theme,  it seems to me,  is that there are those who lay the 'responsibly' for the flaw or problem,  at the door of 'line-breeding',  and though obviously breeding from unhealthy dogs is the reason for the ongoing problems,  careful and considered line-breeding from healthy parents would be unlikely to re-kindle a problem,  or would it?  I'm not a geneticist so I don't know.

Purely for my own convenience,  I do see a distinction between line and in-breeding though it may not be accepted by others.  In-breeding,  for me anyway,  would be immediate parent to child or siblings to each other.  Line-breeding would have dogs related but with other influences.  Line-breeding also (or should),  have a purpose to it.  Simply applying the principles of the practice without any thought as to what we're trying to achieve,  is pointless.

Alec.


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## ycbm (20 April 2016)

Bellasophia said:



			I've not found any evidence to say inbreeding causes the gene to mutate...rather the increased incidence of the recessive gene recurring in an inbred pedigree is going to increase the chances of two recessive  genes being paired up ,and thus expressed in the offspring produced from these crosses..

Can you post a link that shows the Inbreeding actually causes mutation?
		
Click to expand...

You are right, I am wrong about this. The inbreeding risk is believed to come only from matching pre-existing recessive genes.  In trying to find the information I thought I could find, and couldn't, I came across the statistic that there are over 3,500 known recessive genes in humans. These account for high rates of disability in cultures where it is normal for cousins to marry. 

Apologies everyone for my error.


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## Dobermonkey (20 April 2016)

do breed clubs have their own hip score register or is it just bva?

Given it is such an issue I would have thought it in everyone's interest (by that I mean the health of the breed) to try and fathom out what is causing it.  someone mentioned they didn't send off their X-rays as they could see they were bad and removed the dog from the breeding pool but surely it would be some how beneficial to others to be able to review scores for offspring before making a decision on puppy purchase / repeating a mating.    I have no intention of breeding my boy but sent heart related blood test results to the breed health people to go on their register and was invited to take part in the 'research' that was being conducted at the time and paid the £150 contribution.  I just felt for the love of his breed it was the right thing to do.


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## Bellasophia (20 April 2016)

Alec Swan said:



			I often wonder if the figures that we see quoted haven't been simply plucked out of the air!  Of course,  if we breed from two dogs which share an identical flaw,  we run a high risk of replicating the problem.  Few would deny that,  but the main theme,  it seems to me,  is that there are those who lay the 'responsibly' for the flaw or problem,  at the door of 'line-breeding',  and though obviously breeding from unhealthy dogs is the reason for the ongoing problems,  careful and considered line-breeding from healthy parents would be unlikely to re-kindle a problem,  or would it?  I'm not a geneticist so I don't know.

Purely for my own convenience,  I do see a distinction between line and in-breeding though it may not be accepted by others.  In-breeding,  for me anyway,  would be immediate parent to child or siblings to each other.  Line-breeding would have dogs related but with other influences.  Line-breeding also (or should),  have a purpose to it.  Simply applying the principles of the practice without any thought as to what we're trying to achieve,  is pointless.

Alec.
		
Click to expand...

Alec.as I see it the problem with using related dogs in a pedigree is ...
they may look healthy but obviously all will be carrying various recessive forms of a gene in their genetic makeup
If you repeatedly use the same dog ,as you will in in true line breeding( it is recommended to use the same dog on both sides of the pedigree more than once to set a trait)then these recessives will have a greater chance of being paired up.
Sometimes the expression of that recessive trait doesn't show up until two generations or more..
There are breed databases which record pedigrees,the various matings a dog has performed,the litters they produced and any health testing is recorded in these databases to allow future breeders to predict the risks of using certain dogs in their pedigrees.The database is only as good  as its contributors make it.
 recently I health tested my own dog for a condition that his litter brother was shown to be a carrier for..I found out my dog is also a carrier for this condition..we both informed the world famous kennel breeder of our results as she will be breeding their litter sister,to a line bred male( grandfather of the sire is also our dogs father) ...breeder refuses to test the sister of our dogs and will do the breeding regardless...I'm shocked as she has tested for every condition relating to our breed but does not accept the health condition we tested for is " in our breed" .
To me,this is kennel blindness at its best.


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## Bellasophia (20 April 2016)

Dobermonkey said:



			do breed clubs have their own hip score register or is it just bva?

Given it is such an issue I would have thought it in everyone's interest (by that I mean the health of the breed) to try and fathom out what is causing it.  someone mentioned they didn't send off their X-rays as they could see they were bad and removed the dog from the breeding pool but surely it would be some how beneficial to others to be able to review scores for offspring before making a decision on puppy purchase / repeating a mating.    I have no intention of breeding my boy but sent heart related blood test results to the breed health people to go on their register and was invited to take part in the 'research' that was being conducted at the time and paid the £150 contribution.  I just felt for the love of his breed it was the right thing to do.
		
Click to expand...

I also am not a breeder,nor will I ever breed from my dogs..like you I tested thinking my results would be for the good of the breed..I was heartened by your post as you did the same as I and there are few who would spend money health testing with no intention of breeding.From my heart,well done!
I spoke to my vet recently,she said many test their dogs hips now and if the results are poor they don't register the results and breed anyway,just saying in their puppy ads that the parent is " HIp tested" .The unsuspecting buyer is the one to pay,in all senses.
I also would register a bad hip result as it builds a bigger picture of breed lines and trends within.i



Ybcm..no worries ..it's such a huge topic mistakes are easily made..I thought maybe I was behind the times and some new research was going to be revealed..
...interesting points re human genome.


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## Alec Swan (20 April 2016)

Bellasophia,  that's interesting and you raise valid comments.  I would say though,  that I still believe that the problems which a pup is likely to inherit,  will generally be in one parent,  the other or both and should be obvious,  or at least have the buyer of the pup asking questions,  _pre_-purchase!

There's certainly a long held belief with working sheepdogs that what we're looking for will often 'skip a generation'.  I've known of quite useless bitches,  with first class sires (and possibly dams),  and when bred with,  have produced exactly what we want.  Along the same lines,  it's surprising just how many first class bitches fail to replicate themselves when bred with,  no matter what they're put to.

I honestly don't know,  and in truth I don't think that there are any clear answers.  If there were,  then we'd all be breeding the 'perfect' dog,  wouldn't we? 

Alec.


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## Bellasophia (20 April 2016)

The problem is with recessive alleles they don't show up ie ,the dog is a carrier..it's only when two carriers are bred that the recessive genes get a chance to express themselves.
So if the dogs Were carriers they will go unnoticed in a pedigree unless,as in line breeding they get a higher chance to be recombined with a similar recessive gene down the line.Also carriers will not usually express the illness.
The condition we tested for  ( DM) is also not usually going to show up until the dog is about 8 yrs old,so probably will be many years before any affected progeny are registered as affected..
In my case we don't know whether one or both parents are carriers,as breeder refuses to listen to our findings.


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