# I hate having a livery yard :(



## MrsElle (29 November 2015)

I just can't be doing with the stress and hassle.  

My poor horses are wading about in a small trash paddock, bums to the 80mph gusts of wind while all the liveries horses are nice and snug in their cosy stables.  And still they moan! The liveries, not my horses, or their horses for that matter! 

I am considering giving notice to one of my three liveries, meaning my horses could be stabled, or at least have a hard standing yard with shelter, and there would be less whinging!  However, I don't know which livery to give notice to.  All have three or four horses, so it won't be easy to find somewhere new.  

Why do I feel so guilty


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## Bosworth (29 November 2015)

Mrs Elle, I feel your pain. I had livery yards, and i was given a hard time by liveries for using the field closest to the house for my own horses. And for having my 4 horses all together on the yard nearest my house, when they had to have their horses seperated over the two yards. Your house, youre rules. Liveries can be really unreasonable. If you want a stable for your horses then you need to give notice to one livery, a months notice and its not your problem if they struggle to find livery for their horses. Harsh but true. You are supposed to enjoy your horses, and Im sure you gave up your stables back in the summer when the weather was good and now its foul you realise how much you need a stable.


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## Pedantic (29 November 2015)

Simple, get rid of all the liveries, no liveries, no stress no hassle.


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## YorksG (29 November 2015)

I think I'd give them all notice and have the place to myself. We don't have liveries, we had one person here, the idea was that she would share the work for the cost of the keep. I think we decided that it wasn't working when we were brining haylage in, in bags because of snow, the evening of a christmas do and the livery was in the local town, drinking before the do! Not once did she bring in or put out her own, never mind ours! We said then never again and we will stick to it.


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## ester (29 November 2015)

Are you not managing the yard for someone else?


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## be positive (29 November 2015)

I have a small yard but will never have more horses than stables in the winter even though several of mine live out in a decent field with plenty of good hedges to shelter them, I certainly would not have them standing in a tiny paddock to accommodate liveries, if I needed all the boxes full to pay the bills then I would cut back on mine, as you have 9 plus liveries I guess they are DIYs so hardly paying enough to put up with moaning while your horses are living in a trash paddock that will be unlikely to be sustainable for the whole winter. 

Feeling guilty is part of being a YO although some thought before taking on so many liveries would have prevented this happening, I have just turned away two horses which I have spare boxes for but will not risk mine being unable to all come in in an emergency, time to toughen up and decide who is the worst moaner, give them a fair notice period so they are not struggling over Christmas to find somewhere.


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## MrsElle (29 November 2015)

Pedantic said:



			Simple, get rid of all the liveries, no liveries, no stress no hassle.
		
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And no money  

Seriously, I can live without three or four horses worth of livery money, just which one to pick.... ?


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## MrsElle (29 November 2015)

ester said:



			Are you not managing the yard for someone else?
		
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No, it's mine.


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## brighteyes (29 November 2015)

Put yours in livery


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## muddygreymare (29 November 2015)

At the risk of sounding selfish, it is your yard and you have it for YOU as well as accommodating other people's needs and running a business. You should be able to be happy in your own space so explain as nicely as you can to your liveries about how you feel and what you  want to happen. Pleasing everyone else is fine until it impacts on you so much that you feel  sh**ty, then something needs to change. Hope you get it sorted


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## MrsElle (29 November 2015)

be positive said:



			I have a small yard but will never have more horses than stables in the winter even though several of mine live out in a decent field with plenty of good hedges to shelter them, I certainly would not have them standing in a tiny paddock to accommodate liveries, if I needed all the boxes full to pay the bills then I would cut back on mine, as you have 9 plus liveries I guess they are DIYs so hardly paying enough to put up with moaning while your horses are living in a trash paddock that will be unlikely to be sustainable for the whole winter. 

Feeling guilty is part of being a YO although some thought before taking on so many liveries would have prevented this happening, I have just turned away two horses which I have spare boxes for but will not risk mine being unable to all come in in an emergency, time to toughen up and decide who is the worst moaner, give them a fair notice period so they are not struggling over Christmas to find somewhere.
		
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I inherited all the liveries, so did not choose to have so many.  I moved to this house with my horses, and thought we would manage ok.  I have a mare who won't stable, and lives out year round, but the weather is even making her miserable at the moment.  While I wouldn't stable her I do have an area of hard standing with a shelter so she could get out of the mud and elements.  I need to get rid of someone for my sanity and the happiness of my old girl.


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## MrsElle (29 November 2015)

brighteyes said:



			Put yours in livery 

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Why didn't I think of that! Full livery, no mucking out, no doing battle with the 'I hate being stabled and will try to kill you if you do so' one, absolutely perfect!


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## be positive (29 November 2015)

That makes it easier to get rid of one, they must know you are thinking about it, if they have any sense they can see there are too many horses and that it is not going to work out over the winter, in the meantime could they not all go onto the hardstanding even if it is a bit small they may be happier and you less stressed.


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## ester (29 November 2015)

Ah sorry! In which case eeny meeny miny mo?


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## MrsElle (29 November 2015)

be positive said:



			That makes it easier to get rid of one, they must know you are thinking about it, if they have any sense they can see there are too many horses and that it is not going to work out over the winter, in the meantime could they not all go onto the hardstanding even if it is a bit small they may be happier and you less stressed.
		
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I'm afraid the hard standing is in front of one of the liveries stable block so I can't use it.  I know someone has to go, but I am such a wimp, I hate to see anyone in a panic, which they will be as it is really difficult to find livery round here


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## Sussexbythesea (29 November 2015)

Unless your liveries are not paying their way or doing something really awful then I think you are being mean. It's a month until Xmas and it would be difficult to find livery for several horses at this time of year.


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## Luci07 (29 November 2015)

Or... As you are not worried about which one goes..call a yard meeting. (Have back up with you!). Explain this is not working and here are the options. 1 livery has to leave in order to make room for your own horses. You can say they can decide amongst themselves with a months notice or, if they won't, you will then make that decision. They have 24 hours to decide. Also, I would say you would not be upset if more than 1 leaves either!


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## Orca (29 November 2015)

Better to do it now and give reasonable notice, in that case. As a livery myself, I'd hate to think my YO was feeling miserable/ stuck/ stressed. Better to address it now than to let matters deteriorate any further.



MrsElle said:



			I'm afraid the hard standing is in front of one of the liveries stable block so I can't use it.  I know someone has to go, but I am such a wimp, I hate to see anyone in a panic, which they will be as it is really difficult to find livery round here 

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## springtime1331 (29 November 2015)

Or how about offering one owner reduced livery if they have theirs in the trash paddock?


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## Elsbells (29 November 2015)

Well you just going to have to slash that sword, but I am left slightly wondering why you didn't do so back in the summer when it would of been easier for everyone concerned.

 It's a horrible nightmare moving horse homes in the cold wet and dark winter, even more so in the run up to Christmas.


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## MrsElle (29 November 2015)

Sussexbythesea said:



			Unless your liveries are not paying their way or doing something really awful then I think you are being mean. It's a month until Xmas and it would be difficult to find livery for several horses at this time of year.
		
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Can I just ask if you had your own land and yard would your horses not be your priority?  This is my home, my land, my yard and I have always dreamed of being able to keep horses at home.  However, I am unable to enjoy my horses.  The liveries are mucking out and then having a nice cuppa in the tack room while I battle the mud, wind and rain to put hay in the field for my filthy, wet, and miserable horses.  Surely it isn't meant to be like that?


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## MrsElle (29 November 2015)

Elsbells said:



			Well you just going to have to slash that sword, but I am left slightly wondering why you didn't do so back in the summer when it would of been easier for everyone concerned.

 It's a horrible nightmare moving horse homes in the cold wet and dark winter, even more so in the run up to Christmas.
		
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I wasn't living here in the summer, I have only been here a couple of months.


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## Palindrome (29 November 2015)

springtime1331 said:



			Or how about offering one owner reduced livery if they have theirs in the trash paddock?
		
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Good idea 
or could it work out well to build an area for yours, either adding a shelter or whatever would suits best? If the cost is only a few months worth of livery, it might be a win-win in the long term. You could even change the lay out of the yard so it is more convenient for you and you don't have to deal with the DIY liveries on a day to day basis so less opportunity for them to complain to you.

ETA: or just give notice to the next one who complains, I'm sure everyone will be very quiet after that.


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## Luci07 (29 November 2015)

MrsElle said:



			Can I just ask if you had your own land and yard would your horses not be your priority?  This is my home, my land, my yard and I have always dreamed of being able to keep horses at home.  However, I am unable to enjoy my horses.  The liveries are mucking out and then having a nice cuppa in the tack room while I battle the mud, wind and rain to put hay in the field for my filthy, wet, and miserable horses.  Surely it isn't meant to be like that?
		
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Playing devils advocate though.... How long have you been in your home? This may well be thrown back at you. However, if you had started off thinking this would work and not it isn't...then as this is your home and your horses....which means you take priority.


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## MrsElle (29 November 2015)

Palindrome said:



			Good idea 
or could it work out well to build an area for yours, either adding a shelter or whatever would suits best? If the cost is only a few months worth of livery, it might be a win-win in the long term. You could even change the lay out of the yard so it is more convenient for you and you don't have to deal with the DIY liveries on a day to day basis so less opportunity for them to complain to you.
		
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It is a good idea.  I am going to have to look at the layout of the yard, but it is quite a traditional set up, mainly set around a central farm yard with our house on one side and the barns/stables etc on the other three.  I need to get my thinking cap on!


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## Red-1 (29 November 2015)

Could you have a swap and take over the livery stables with the hardstanding for your own horses?


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## be positive (29 November 2015)

MrsElle said:



			Can I just ask if you had your own land and yard would your horses not be your priority?  This is my home, my land, my yard and I have always dreamed of being able to keep horses at home.  However, I am unable to enjoy my horses.  The liveries are mucking out and then having a nice cuppa in the tack room while I battle the mud, wind and rain to put hay in the field for my filthy, wet, and miserable horses.  Surely it isn't meant to be like that?
		
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You do have to put yourself first sometimes, yes it will be tough, it should have been done before it got to this but if you have not had liveries before you may not have realised what you were taking on and how bad winter will be and we are not really into the worst yet, I think the idea of a yard meeting and seeing if there is a willing volunteer to move on, is maybe the option worth taking, you never know there may be one already looking elsewhere who just requires a prod to get out.


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## MrsElle (29 November 2015)

I've only been here a couple of months and inherited the liveries.  I said they could stay when I moved in as mine all live out, but I now realise I need at least some form of shelter.


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## MrsElle (29 November 2015)

Red-1 said:



			Could you have a swap and take over the livery stables with the hardstanding for your own horses?
		
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I have no stables for my own horses, so can't swap.  The problem is me not realising this might be an issue when I moved here, I should have moved in and given at least one livery notice when they were all expecting it.


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## Tiddlypom (29 November 2015)

Think you posted previously that your liveries are paying £20 pw DIY for stable, grazing, parking and storage?

You need to raise your charges, too, that is unsustainably low (unless the livery yard is purely a hobby).

It's an unpleasant situation all round, but your own horses come first, someone else will have to go.


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## Pedantic (29 November 2015)

Tell the liveries you love all of them, but that one has to go, you will put their names in a hat and pull one out, but put the name of the person you want to go on "ALL" the bits of paper ;-)


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## shortstuff99 (29 November 2015)

I think what your main issue will be is what the livery you kick out will then say about you to the local horse community. I would tread very carefully as this could come back to bite you....unless you get rid of all the liveries.


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## Orca (29 November 2015)

Tiddlypom said:



			Think you posted previously that your liveries are paying £20 pw DIY for stable, grazing, parking and storage?

You need to raise your charges, too, that is unsustainably low (unless the livery yard is purely a hobby).

It's an unpleasant situation all round, but your own horses come first, someone else will have to go.
		
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I think that depends more on the going rate for the area. I pay £25 p/w DIY for stable, turnout, storage, outside school and large indoor school, with great hacks (and it's the most expensive livery around here).


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## Spot_the_Risk (29 November 2015)

Oh dear, I do feel for you.  I think yard meeting is the way forward, maybe with a back up letter for everyone just so nothing can be skewed later.  You need stables/shelter, you are giving notice that X amount of their horses (do they all share the same field) will be grass livery only from such and such a date, if they cannot find livery elsewhere before this time.  Be prepared that you may loose them all.  I hope it goes well...


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## MrsElle (29 November 2015)

Pedantic said:



			Tell the liveries you love all of them, but that one has to go, you will put their names in a hat and pull one out, but put the name of the person you want to go on "ALL" the bits of paper ;-)
		
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I'm liking that one!


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## MrsElle (29 November 2015)

shortstuff99 said:



			I think what your main issue will be is what the livery you kick out will then say about you to the local horse community. I would tread very carefully as this could come back to bite you....unless you get rid of all the liveries.
		
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I'm not involved in the local horse community at all, my horses are at home, I plod about the lanes on my cob, happy with my own company, so I'm not overly bothered about that.  I wouldn't replace any liveries that left, I have already decided on that.


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## Copperpot (29 November 2015)

It's your house and yard so you get priority. Yes you will feel bad but you don't pay your mortgage to keep others happy. Why should your horses get a worse deal.


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## MrsElle (29 November 2015)

Spot_the_Risk said:



			Oh dear, I do feel for you.  I think yard meeting is the way forward, maybe with a back up letter for everyone just so nothing can be skewed later.  You need stables/shelter, you are giving notice that X amount of their horses (do they all share the same field) will be grass livery only from such and such a date, if they cannot find livery elsewhere before this time.  Be prepared that you may loose them all.  I hope it goes well...
		
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Everyone has their own paddock, so that would work.  I'm not too bothered about loosing them all to be honest, maybe that is the way to go..


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## skint1 (29 November 2015)

MrsElle said:



			Can I just ask if you had your own land and yard would your horses not be your priority?  This is my home, my land, my yard and I have always dreamed of being able to keep horses at home.  However, I am unable to enjoy my horses.  The liveries are mucking out and then having a nice cuppa in the tack room while I battle the mud, wind and rain to put hay in the field for my filthy, wet, and miserable horses.  Surely it isn't meant to be like that?
		
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that does sound pants I must say!   If i were a livery on a yard like yours I would expect to work around you to a certain extent because as you say, it's your home, so as long as my horses had what they needed I would be very happy to defer to the land owner in most cases!  I have never understood why people resent it when YO has the best stables/fields etc for their own horses, they would be exactly the same in that position (I know I would) and also they would've been shown what was on offer upon moving in, and it was fine then, so why get the hump later?!   

However, from the other perspective- this situation is sort of at your own hand. This is your home, your land, so you had control over how many stables you rented out,  why did you let out all the stables and leave yours with none?  If all the liveries are decent people it seems rather unfair to toss one of them out mid winter because you suddenly decide you must have stables. If I were one of the remaining liveries that would make me well nervous of you, and I'd be looking for the first opportunity to leave just in case it was me next!  That said though, it's your place, your rules, fairness doesn't really come in to it. 

I can see it from both perspectives, and I don't envy you having to make such a decision, good luck!


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## Elf On A Shelf (29 November 2015)

Sorry about your situation. I like the idea of a name in a hat.

As an aside - £25 a week for DIY with parking and school et al?!?! Where on earth are you?!?! It's a minimum of £30 round here and that is quite literally a stable and a space in a field. You pay for schools, parking, electricity, water, you name it, you pay more for it. So glad I have the majority of mine at home and the others with very friendly farmers!


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## The Fuzzy Furry (29 November 2015)

Oh dear,  Mrs E, nightmare. 
Can you afford a shelter for yours asap?

Nothing you do now is going to improve anything for *at least a month *, so new year.
Swiftest solution is portable shelter and rubber mats, but pricey.

Glad am not you, but when i did have liveries all animals had indoor space, even if a couple of mine had to share.

Hope you can sort without too much stress x


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## MrsElle (29 November 2015)

skint1 said:



			that does sound pants I must say!   If i were a livery on a yard like yours I would expect to work around you to a certain extent because as you say, it's your home, so as long as my horses had what they needed I would be very happy to defer to the land owner in most cases!  I have never understood why people resent it when YO has the best stables/fields etc for their own horses, they would be exactly the same in that position (I know I would) and also they would've been shown what was on offer upon moving in, and it was fine then, so why get the hump later?!   

However, from the other perspective- this situation is sort of at your own hand. This is your home, your land, so you had control over how many stables you rented out,  why did you let out all the stables and leave yours with none?  If all the liveries are decent people it seems rather unfair to toss one of them out mid winter because you suddenly decide you must have stables. If I were one of the remaining liveries that would make me well nervous of you, and I'd be looking for the first opportunity to leave just in case it was me next!  That said though, it's your place, your rules, fairness doesn't really come in to it. 

I can see it from both perspectives, and I don't envy you having to make such a decision, good luck!
		
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I only moved here a couple of months ago and inherited the liveries.


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## skint1 (29 November 2015)

MrsElle said:



			I've only been here a couple of months and inherited the liveries.  I said they could stay when I moved in as mine all live out, but I now realise I need at least some form of shelter.
		
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Ah, I didn't realise this! Hope you find a good solution!


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## D66 (29 November 2015)

Either sack the least popular livery or the one with the most desirable stables. Good luck.


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## MrsElle (29 November 2015)

It is a bit of a nightmare I'm afraid.  

Hey, I have just realised that I do have a field with a shelter in it (doh!).  I don't go round there often, so had forgotten all about it.  Livery who uses that field will just have to swap fields with me for a while if she wants to keep her stables. 

I can't believe I hadn't thought of that, but I have only been round there half a dozen times, if that, since we moved in!

While it isn't a long term fix, it will do for now while I decide what to do about the liveries


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## glamourpuss (29 November 2015)

MrsElle said:



			It is a bit of a nightmare I'm afraid.  

Hey, I have just realised that I do have a field with a shelter in it (doh!).  I don't go round there often, so had forgotten all about it.  Livery who uses that field will just have to swap fields with me for a while if she wants to keep her stables. 

I can't believe I hadn't thought of that, but I have only been round there half a dozen times, if that, since we moved in!

While it isn't a long term fix, it will do for now while I decide what to do about the liveries 

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Sounds perfect, tell that livery they are swapping with you. If she so much as dares to moan....serve her notice &#128514; Win, win &#128077;


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## The Fuzzy Furry (29 November 2015)

MrsElle said:



			It is a bit of a nightmare I'm afraid.  

Hey, I have just realised that I do have a field with a shelter in it (doh!).  I don't go round there often, so had forgotten all about it.  Livery who uses that field will just have to swap fields with me for a while if she wants to keep her stables. 

I can't believe I hadn't thought of that, but I have only been round there half a dozen times, if that, since we moved in!

While it isn't a long term fix, it will do for now while I decide what to do about the liveries 

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great,  then you cope till end Feb  (only 12 weeks, not long in big scheme of things).
Talk to liveries, let them know you are struggling, will be using the shelter etc, will see how the winter goes - hoping you can all pull together - might have to review in spring. ..

and breathe!


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## MrsElle (29 November 2015)

This is why I love HHO, you can throw a problem out there and you will receive lots of opinion, suggestions and advice 

Thank you all  x

Still can't believe how dim I have been not realising I have a stone barn in one of my fields!!!!


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## ester (29 November 2015)

lol


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## ihatework (29 November 2015)

I think you are just going to have to grow a pair to be honest.

Ignore your liveries for the moment and decide how you would want your yard to be run. Then tell the liveries that is what is happening.

So you will be taking X boxes  plus the hardstanding/storage
You are happy to keep Y liveries at a charge of Z (I'd suggest makng it a charge worth your while)
The remaining liveries have 1 months notice - I'd evict the liveries who are the most hassle (as a gesture of goodwill maybe say the trash paddock will be there for emergency use if they cannot sort themselves out in time)

And if the remaining liveries don't like it, well they are free to leave


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## Tiddlypom (29 November 2015)

Haha! None of us thought to suggest that you checked to see if you had a spare stone barn tucked away, did we . Phew, what a relief.


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## SusieT (29 November 2015)

WEll at the end of the day horse welfare is the priority- they do need some sort of shelter (or good rugs?) 
Could you not alternate so one group of horses is out in the day and one at night and therefore stables/hard standing is shared between two sets of horses?


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## Bosworth (29 November 2015)

if you have a stone barn, then you can increase the space by getting in some heston bales of straw and create an extension to the barn walls so creating a wind block for the horses to hide behind as well as the barn. that will shelter them from the worst of the weather. And the bales are far cheaper than buying a field shelter. and will last a suprisingly long time and no planning required


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## MrsElle (29 November 2015)

Tiddlypom said:



			Haha! None of us thought to suggest that you checked to see if you had a spare stone barn tucked away, did we . Phew, what a relief.
		
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I guess you would have all thought I would know if I had a barn stuck in a field somewhere.  You wouldn't have thought someone could be so stupid not realise that they had one.....  

It's not a massive building, more like a decent sized stable, but there is plenty of shelter around it too and it is in the most sheltered field.  I doubt any of them will go in but I will be happy knowing it is there if they need a bit of respite from the rain.


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## The Fuzzy Furry (29 November 2015)

MrsElle said:



			This is why I love HHO, you can throw a problem out there and you will receive lots of opinion, suggestions and advice 

Thank you all  x

Still can't believe how dim I have been not realising I have a stone barn in one of my fields!!!!
		
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Glad we could help


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## MrsElle (29 November 2015)

SusieT said:



			WEll at the end of the day horse welfare is the priority- they do need some sort of shelter (or good rugs?) 
Could you not alternate so one group of horses is out in the day and one at night and therefore stables/hard standing is shared between two sets of horses?
		
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The stable share would not go down well, and there are stallions involved - not mine, liveries.  It wouldn't work I'm afraid, but thanks for the suggestion, it might have worked otherwise.


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## MrsElle (29 November 2015)

Bosworth said:



			if you have a stone barn, then you can increase the space by getting in some heston bales of straw and create an extension to the barn walls so creating a wind block for the horses to hide behind as well as the barn. that will shelter them from the worst of the weather. And the bales are far cheaper than buying a field shelter. and will last a suprisingly long time and no planning required 

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That is a really good idea, I will do that.  It is a quite sheltered anyway, but that would mean they could all stand together out of the wind


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## Bosworth (29 November 2015)

I did it in a few of my fields and the horses loved it. nibbled on the straw too while they were in there.


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## skint1 (29 November 2015)

Great news! I think that's a very reasonable compromise!


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## Fools Motto (29 November 2015)

I was 'just' about to suggest searching for a missing stone barn, but I see you've found it! Happens to us all you know!! lol
On a serious note, glad you've found a solution, it is horrible thinking about our mud wading beasts in this weather!


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## spacie1977 (30 November 2015)

Glad to hear you've found a solution. But as you don't sound particularly happy about having any liveries I'd still be looking at gently pushing one or two to go. If you raise your livery fees to considerably more than the going rate for the area, they're very likely to look elsewhere without you needing to ask someone to go. I.e. No guilty feelings about choosing which one goes, or putting them under pressure to leave with just a months notice. You'll have fewer moaners to deal with and more freedom over what you do with your own horses. And if they take a while to find somewhere else to go because they've got a lot of horses to move, at least you'll be financially compensated for having to wait for them to shove off.


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## CBAnglo (30 November 2015)

Put prices up; they will leave.

I have 3 empty boxes; no way I would rent these out, neither to friends or anyone else.  I worked extremely hard for 10 years to afford my place and no-one is going to dictate to me or my horses for £20 pw!


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## QueenDee_ (30 November 2015)

Glad you've thought of a short term solution.
As for the long term i'd consider raising the prices asap to make the hassle seem more worthwhile (i'd consider raising them to the point that if you lost 1 livery, you'd still be receiving the same combined amount from the remaining liveries if that makes sense). 
This may also result in one of them deciding to find livery elsewhere (thus forgoing the issue of having to kick one out!) alternatively, come spring time if you have decided that the short term solution of using the field shelter for yourself is not an appropriate long term solution, you can give one of them notice to leave. As spring is a less stressful time for someone to be finding a new livery space, this may result in less hard feelings all round than doing it at christmas (although it is well within your rights to do so!)


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## Sussexbythesea (30 November 2015)

MrsElle said:



			Can I just ask if you had your own land and yard would your horses not be your priority?  This is my home, my land, my yard and I have always dreamed of being able to keep horses at home.  However, I am unable to enjoy my horses.  The liveries are mucking out and then having a nice cuppa in the tack room while I battle the mud, wind and rain to put hay in the field for my filthy, wet, and miserable horses.  Surely it isn't meant to be like that?
		
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Ultimately yes but I still would be trying to work something out longer term even if that is more notice. If I remember correctly it wasn't so long ago you were in danger of being made homeless yourself so I would expect a little more empathy. These liveries were there before you and it's not their fault you've come along and don't like the set-up - which presumably you knew before you took it on?


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## Sandstone1 (30 November 2015)

Sussexbythesea said:



			Ultimately yes but I still would be trying to work something out longer term even if that is more notice. If I remember correctly it wasn't so long ago you were in danger of being made homeless yourself so I would expect a little more empathy. These liveries were there before you and it's not their fault you've come along and don't like the set-up - which presumably you knew before you took it on?
		
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I thought you were running the livery yard for someone else? Maybe I got it wrong. It sounds,as if there are too many horses for the property.


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## Vodkagirly (30 November 2015)

I think I would let the livery with the barn know that you will be swapping fields then put a notice up that there I'd rent rise as of 1St Jan.  You may lose some livery but if not, there will be something in the pot to pay for more hardstanding for next winter.


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## webble (30 November 2015)

Just to throw a slight spanner in the works a lot of livery yards won't take stallions so you might find the livery that has them very reluctant to move. Would it be worth keeping them but at a higher rate and getting rid of the other two. You could say it's because you know it's hard to find somewhere with a stallion so you are still the good guy


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## popsdosh (30 November 2015)

Sussexbythesea said:



			Ultimately yes but I still would be trying to work something out longer term even if that is more notice. If I remember correctly it wasn't so long ago you were in danger of being made homeless yourself so I would expect a little more empathy. These liveries were there before you and it's not their fault you've come along and don't like the set-up - which presumably you knew before you took it on?
		
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unbelievable, if the liveries want security let them buy their own yard !!!! There is a very large livery yard and show centre not very far from me who gave all their liveries a months notice recently because they got fed up with the moaning and didnt need the income. If its your property you call the shots its not your problem were they go. We had about 20 liveries here till 15 yrs ago now none,I have never regretted closing it. Im afraid SBTS its an attitude like yours that makes it impossible.
If it was me and you really are happy to keep some I would move the ball into their court ,tell them what needs to happen, what the terms of them staying are and suggest they sort it out amongst them all. Just as an aside do any of them have horses that could live out??? as its amazing how accommodating people can be when the chips are down!!!


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## madlady (30 November 2015)

Oh poor you.  I'd still be having a meeting with the liveries - tell them you have a temporary arrangement but say that everything needs to be discussed and sorted properly.  If they can't discuss and come to a reasonable solution between them then one or all will have to go.

The main thing is YOU and YOUR horses - your land, your home, your rules.


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## MotherOfChickens (30 November 2015)

CBAnglo said:



			Put prices up; they will leave.

I have 3 empty boxes; no way I would rent these out, neither to friends or anyone else.  I worked extremely hard for 10 years to afford my place and no-one is going to dictate to me or my horses for £20 pw!
		
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Yeah, this. I do have some sympathy for the liveries tbh. but then having several horses and paying peanuts for them, well I'm sorry, they should have thought of the possibility that maybe someone at some stage might want to stop subsidising their hobby.


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## conniegirl (30 November 2015)

£20 a week for diy depends on the area u are in.
Up here no one would pay more than £25 a week Diy.
I currently pay£20 a week diy with access to 2 flood lit schools, parking for my Lorry, fab stables and all year turnout.


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## _OC_ (30 November 2015)

Yeah....just do it by text like it was done to me about 6 weeks ago....then hide in your house and hope they leave....and I was not even a problem....did not whinge and was grateful and generous to her....and kept every thing very tidy.
Yep.....so do it that way.....seems to be the done way round these parts!!!


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## MotherOfChickens (30 November 2015)

conniegirl said:



			£20 a week for diy depends on the area u are in.
Up here no one would pay more than £25 a week Diy.
I currently pay£20 a week diy with access to 2 flood lit schools, parking for my Lorry, fab stables and all year turnout.
		
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I don't care where it is, £20pw week is peanuts and I've no idea why people do it for that money, even if there's no mortgage. I obviously don't know the liveries in the livery yard under discussion but I do feel that livery prices are partly to blame for the welfare crisis currently. Its too easy to collect horses and it may all be fine until you find yourself with nowhere to put them or if prices suddenly hike and suddenly your costs go up by 25-50%, then what? I've seen it too often, don't have what you can't plan for in an emergency and if you don't have your own place, you are never completely safe. Its difficult enough to place two horses at livery, three or more even more so. 

The reason people 'won't pay it is because they don't have to.

I have three, at home and I rent fields. No arena although I have parking for my lorry  Taking into account the cost of the stables, mortgage etc I don't do it for £20pw. I've actually not paid £20pw ever tbh,  even yards round my way that were charging £25pw DIY 10 years ago woke up and started charging more.


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## stencilface (30 November 2015)

MrsElle said:



			Hey, I have just realised that I do have a field with a shelter in it (doh!).  I don't go round there often, so had forgotten all about it.  Livery who uses that field will just have to swap fields with me for a while if she wants to keep her stables. 

I can't believe I hadn't thought of that, but I have only been round there half a dozen times, if that, since we moved in!
		
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This is brilliant! Hark at you with your new house, stables and so much land you forgot you had a field with a stone barn in it    

I wish that was me! 

If it makes you feel better, mine is on restricted paddock rest (although in at night) and the only nearby area we can paddock is a quagmire atm, poor thing will get webbed legs I think.  Although his paddock at the bottom (I have 3 on rotation to hopefully minimise damage!) has its own stream these days, which means no lugging water buckets for me


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## YorksG (30 November 2015)

Liveries should be pleased that they didn't have to move when the property changed hands imo. I agree with MoC, we pay a premium to buy houses with land to keep horses at home, yes we have a nice house, but when you factor in all the costs, it will work out as more than 20 quid a horse, per week. Very few liveries seem to recognise the costs of maintenance, never mind the time taken to do it! We had horrendous winds last night and the over hang of the stable built about five years ago was lifting, so in the dark and winds, I was on a stable roof making running repairs. How much that would actually cost to have done, even if you could get some-one out, doesn't bear thinking about! Liveries also cause more maintenance (rotting wooden walls because of deep littering on unsuitable wood shavings). 
Popsdosh is quite right, the only way you can ensure that your horses are going to be able to stay on a piece of land, is to buy that land yourself!


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## ester (30 November 2015)

£20 seems reasonable to me as there isn't a good quality school. I pay £30 for the same plus a good quality 25x65 floodlight school and that is going rate around here, arguable quite a posh area as near winchester!

Assuming you are still renting this place I am assuming that the owner has given you carte blanche and made no promises to any of the liveries as per how long they could stay, and obviously doesn't mind the potential loss of income if you were to have them all leave and then end up leaving at the end of the tenancy yourself.


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## GemG (30 November 2015)

I've not read every post, but get the jist....

Sit down and think about exactly what you want for going forward, write it all down, including how many liveries you want / need / none / whatever.  Decide what fields you want, what stables you want, what the rules are going to be. Decide who is going where if you want to keep any.   Sleep on it, Have another look at it the next day, then...

....grow a set of balls and do it. Whatever it is.

You didn't buy your own place to please other people. (And I am a livery  myself by the way).  If you need rid of any just give them ample time to get sorted to be kind if you can. Do it.


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## Clodagh (30 November 2015)

I think, if you can reach an acceptable compromise to see you thruogh winter you coulds tell them on the 1st Jan what your plans are for, say, 1st April. THat is far mjore notice than anyonecould object to. They must know it might happen anyway?

If you can't reach a compromise for your horses then yes, one of them must go and you could just give a months notice.

The barn sounds like a plan though. I bet the livery who has it objects to you taking it!


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## Tiddlypom (30 November 2015)

ester said:



			£20 seems reasonable to me as there isn't a good quality school. I pay £30 for the same plus a good quality 25x65 floodlight school and that is going rate around here, arguable quite a posh area as near winchester!
		
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Sadly, Ester, there is often a difference between the 'going rate' for livery in an area and the 'economic rate'. If you ever get your own place, and have to run, pay back any loans or mortgage and maintain it, you will discover this.


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## Alec Swan (30 November 2015)

I've run two livery yards and been involved with several others.  NEVER EVER AGAIN!  We have two of our four boxes standing empty,  and that is how it will stay.  We have a friend,  an otherwise pleasant girl with a spectacular smile and a bum to match,  who continues to hint at how lucky we would be were she with us!  Not a ******* chance! 

The horror stories are legion.  I've been on those yards where they've stolen each others feed and husbands too (some of those men must have been desperate!),  but interestingly,  child theft seems to always be non-existent,  though why I'm not sure because the children never seemed to me to be the problem,  it was their parents.  On one yard,  we even had one livery tie sacks around the feet of their pony so they wouldn't be heard whilst leaving in the dead of night.

Nobody earns enough out of a livery yard,  it seems to me,  to warrant the attendant grief.

Alec.


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## ester (30 November 2015)

Oh I am well aware of that, having had own land and stables in the past. It is economic for my YOs as they want all the facilities for the YO's 3 horses too anyway. But it does depend on where too as to how much land and property is.


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## YorksG (30 November 2015)

It does seem as if an awful lot of people have no real idea of how much time YO's have to put in to keeping the place running well, I doubt if many will make minimum wage for the work they do, never mind a living wage! There still seems to be a huge feeling of entitlement amongst livery customers, that they should have the services for less than the economic rate. I think this is endemic among some horse owners, who expect all goods and services for less than the true cost. People will pay a fortune for bling and colour co-ordinated tat and yet resent paying a fair price for forage, vet bills and farrier services, very odd imo.


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## Clodagh (30 November 2015)

Alec Swan said:



			I've run two livery yards and been involved with several others.  NEVER EVER AGAIN!  We have two of our four boxes standing empty,  and that is how it will stay.  We have a friend,  an otherwise pleasant girl with a spectacular smile and a bum to match,  who continues to hint at how lucky we would be were she with us!  Not a ******* chance! 

The horror stories are legion.  I've been on those yards where they've stolen each others feed and husbands too (some of those men must have been desperate!),  but interestingly,  child theft seems to always be non-existent,  though why I'm not sure because the children never seemed to me to be the problem,  it was their parents.  On one yard,  we even had one livery tie sacks around the feet of their pony so they wouldn't be heard whilst leaving in the dead of night.

Nobody earns enough out of a livery yard,  it seems to me,  to warrant the attendant grief.

Alec.
		
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So agree with you! I have two new stables and a large field standing empty. I had one livery, once. Never again.


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## stencilface (30 November 2015)

We were at some points considering a livery as we have so much grass, but you're making me think its a no no!  Will keep getting the farmer to put his sheep in (and keeping my dog away from them!!)


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## DD (30 November 2015)

just give them all notice and see which leaves first then tell the rest they can stay.


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## Annagain (30 November 2015)

Tiddlypom said:



			Sadly, Ester, there is often a difference between the 'going rate' for livery in an area and the 'economic rate'. If you ever get your own place, and have to run, pay back any loans or mortgage and maintain it, you will discover this.
		
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I think I'm very lucky in that my YO inherited the yard from her father and it's been in the family for decades, so no mortgage on it or their house. I'm sure this helps to keep the prices down as it's excellent value for the area. 

Mrs E - I think I'd struggle through the winter, which should be easier now you've found a barn  -  and take your time to get to know your liveries a bit better and decide which one is the most dispensible. Then, early in the new year, give one 6 months notice. Say you now realise there are just too many horses there for the land / buildings, so you're giving them plenty of time to find somewhere else. They can't moan about 6 months notice and once spring hits, it should be less of an issue until next winter.  Do the name in a hat thing, but only put one name in there!  

The other option would be to tell each livery they have to move one horse each within 3 months. I bet one will move them all and make the decision for you! 

With regards to the mare who won't stable, you might find she'll change her mind as she gets older and this weather might be the trigger.  I've known 2 who wouldn't stable until they were about 17 / 18, they then settled virtually overnight.


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## GemG (30 November 2015)

stencilface said:



			We were at some points considering a livery as we have so much grass, but you're making me think its a no no!  Will keep getting the farmer to put his sheep in (and keeping my dog away from them!!)
		
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Being a livery myself, I feel I must balance this slightly and add that, yes, there are lots of 'bad, thoughtless, inconsiderate, demanding, entitled' liveries out there.  

But there are also some who are decent, hardworking, thoughtful, tidy and conscientious also - it's a cas of being very fussy about who you have / let on your yard.  A lot let anyone on - and end up with the crazy mix of the unhelpful and the clueless.

For example, I am tidier (by far!) than our YO and am fussy and sweep up even when my horses are out and it's not my mess (I just can't leave it!).  I push bolts down when I pass a door as I can't stand the sticking out in case someone gets 'caught on it' when walking past.   Maybe that comes from prev working on an immaculate yard where everything had to be just -so.    A good livery can be awfully helpful and be a great 'extra hand' for example if you need to go away for example.   Or good company for hacking.

Having said that, if I did have my own place, I doubt I would ever have liveries - so I'm contradicting myself aren't I!!!


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## MotherOfChickens (30 November 2015)

YorksG said:



			It does seem as if an awful lot of people have no real idea of how much time YO's have to put in to keeping the place running well, I doubt if many will make minimum wage for the work they do, never mind a living wage! There still seems to be a huge feeling of entitlement amongst livery customers, that they should have the services for less than the economic rate. I think this is endemic among some horse owners, who expect all goods and services for less than the true cost. People will pay a fortune for bling and colour co-ordinated tat and yet resent paying a fair price for forage, vet bills and farrier services, very odd imo.
		
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I've worked with horses and in supporting industries for much of my life-never again will I have horse owners as the majority of my customers/clients. Many of them really do think as you describe and think that working with horses should be paid as unskilled, less than minimum wage labour-but then bitch when they actually get the unskilled labour. And don't get me started on sharers, charging someone for the privilege of shovelling your horse's *****-usually at a higher price than the daily livery. I need to go, I feel a rant coming on


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## pixie (30 November 2015)

In my experience, my best liveries have always been those who have owned or rented land in the past.  They are very aware of field maintenance.  Always happy to keep their fields immaculately poo-picked.  Keep horses in for longer during bad weather so that the grass stays better for the future. Always up to date on worming/WEC etc.

I tend to try and keep numbers down over winter if possible, to allow remaining horses to have the best possible turnout.  If a livery leaves in the autumn, then I won't start advertising for a new one until late feb/march.  I've currently got two boxes empty, which is great.  It allows me the space to have a winter paddock in reserve.  I also now have a fenced off stubble field for when it gets very yucky outside.

In regards to the OP.  you've solved the problem for now, which is great.  Now you can spend the next few months getting to know your liveries.  You can pick up on any traits (human or horsey!) that you'd rather not have on your yard and can ask them to leave.  Late payers?  Complainers?  Stable/field wrecking horse?  Someone who won't poo-pick?  Someone who keeps "borrowing" other people's things?  Plenty of reasons to ask someone to leave.  Even simple things like horses being good to lead.  They may be DIY, but if push come to shove then you may have to lead one in an emergency.  A horse that is arsey to lead is enough reason for me to get rid.


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## Llanali (30 November 2015)

shortstuff99 said:



			I think what your main issue will be is what the livery you kick out will then say about you to the local horse community. I would tread very carefully as this could come back to bite you....unless you get rid of all the liveries.
		
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Sussexbythesea said:



			Ultimately yes but I still would be trying to work something out longer term even if that is more notice. If I remember correctly it wasn't so long ago you were in danger of being made homeless yourself so I would expect a little more empathy. These liveries were there before you and it's not their fault you've come along and don't like the set-up - which presumably you knew before you took it on?
		
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These left my jaw on the floor. 

Firstly, being held to ransom by a local gossip is not something that would fill me with much fear and nor bloody should it. 

Secondly, it matters not one jot who was there first!! OP now has control of the property and can do with it however she chooses. I'd say the liveries have been lucky not to have been given noticed when the property became that of the OP.


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## The Fuzzy Furry (30 November 2015)

Calling Mrs E - have you got yourself sorted m'dear? Swapped paddocks so you can use the barn?
Fingers xx'd


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## conniegirl (30 November 2015)

MotherOfChickens said:



			I don't care where it is, £20pw week is peanuts and I've no idea why people do it for that money, even if there's no mortgage. I obviously don't know the liveries in the livery yard under discussion but I do feel that livery prices are partly to blame for the welfare crisis currently. Its too easy to collect horses and it may all be fine until you find yourself with nowhere to put them or if prices suddenly hike and suddenly your costs go up by 25-50%, then what? I've seen it too often, don't have what you can't plan for in an emergency and if you don't have your own place, you are never completely safe. Its difficult enough to place two horses at livery, three or more even more so. 

The reason people 'won't pay it is because they don't have to.

I have three, at home and I rent fields. No arena although I have parking for my lorry  Taking into account the cost of the stables, mortgage etc I don't do it for £20pw. I've actually not paid £20pw ever tbh,  even yards round my way that were charging £25pw DIY 10 years ago woke up and started charging more.
		
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I'm in the north east, where a 3 bed house with 5 acres of land, 4 stables and a sand school will set you back around £200k. (one just up the road from the yard where I keep my horses just sold for this), so if my YO put her prices up by more than £10 a week it would be cheaper for me to buy my own place with land rather than rent a house and have one horse on livery and yes i've had my own place before so I know how much it costs to run a yard.


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## Embo (30 November 2015)

conniegirl said:



			I'm in the north east, where a 3 bed house with 5 acres of land, 4 stables and a sand school will set you back around £200k. (one just up the road from the yard where I keep my horses just sold for this)...
		
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Crikey, I paid way more for my 3-bed semi, no land, with a main-line railway at the end of the garden! I think I need to move up North lol 

And DIY livery down here - I was paying £38 per week! Most of the stables leaked, had to pay extra for decent storage, the 2x schools flood when it rained and fields turned into a bog in winter.

Phew! Glad I'm out of there! 

Back to main topic; your house, your land, your rules. Do the field swap. If they complain, tell them it's that or they are given notice, they will then deal with it or leave.


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## Pedantic (30 November 2015)

Someone said you should to grow a pair, why not cut off the stallions balls and wear them around your waist, then ask all the liveries if anyone "has a problem" with the stabling arrangements ;-)


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## Vodkagirly (30 November 2015)

Where abouts? It's 200k for a 3 bed semi where I live, outskirts of Newcastle.
Last time I looked, there was nothing with land for less than 800k on right move. Duke of Northumberland owns so much land that the price of what remains is high.


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## MotherOfChickens (30 November 2015)

Vodkagirly said:



			Where abouts? It's 200k for a 3 bed semi where I live, outskirts of Newcastle.
Last time I looked, there was nothing with land for less than 800k on right move. Duke of Northumberland owns so much land that the price of what remains is high.
		
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I used to live just north of there and agree. I actually think its by the by though, my place (less than 5 acres) cost a bit over £200K-why would that mean I should only charge £20pw for a livery if I wanted one? If I factored in an arena at £20K etc there's no way. it adds up and I'm not even talking any profit.


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## Stockers (30 November 2015)

Glad you have a short term solution.  As has been said - your house, your rules.

I am lucky enough to livery with a friend.  She accommodates me for company as much as anything.  I am very grateful and am very aware of how much hard work goes into maintaining the lovely facilities so try and be an considerate as I possibly can.


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## MrsElle (30 November 2015)

The Fuzzy Furry said:



			Calling Mrs E - have you got yourself sorted m'dear? Swapped paddocks so you can use the barn?
Fingers xx'd 

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There is an update.....

I waited until the livery had come home to inform her that I would be putting my horses in 'her' field.  She wasn't overly impressed, but couldn't say much.  I told her she could use another field if she wished to turn out her horses, but she rarely does so that isn't a huge issue.  I also offered her another stable (much too small for mine, but ok for hers) as one of her stables had water in the front as the yard was flooding.  She said she couldn't move as hers are colts/stallions.

She then told me that she was withholding rent for one stable due to to the flooding.  

She will be getting notice.

All problems solved!


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## Clodagh (30 November 2015)

MrsElle said:



			There is an update.....

I waited until the livery had come home to inform her that I would be putting my horses in 'her' field.  She wasn't overly impressed, but couldn't say much.  I told her she could use another field if she wished to turn out her horses, but she rarely does so that isn't a huge issue.  I also offered her another stable (much too small for mine, but ok for hers) as one of her stables had water in the front as the yard was flooding.  She said she couldn't move as hers are colts/stallions.

She then told me that she was withholding rent for one stable due to to the flooding.  

She will be getting notice.

All problems solved!
		
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Good news.


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## MotherOfChickens (30 November 2015)

MrsElle said:



			There is an update.....

I waited until the livery had come home to inform her that I would be putting my horses in 'her' field.  She wasn't overly impressed, but couldn't say much.  I told her she could use another field if she wished to turn out her horses, but she rarely does so that isn't a huge issue.  I also offered her another stable (much too small for mine, but ok for hers) as one of her stables had water in the front as the yard was flooding.  She said she couldn't move as hers are colts/stallions.

She then told me that she was withholding rent for one stable due to to the flooding.  

She will be getting notice.

All problems solved!
		
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I'm glad she made it easy for you (well, you know what I mean!).


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## Alec Swan (30 November 2015)

MrsElle said:



			There is an update.....

I waited until the livery had come home to inform her that I would be putting my horses in 'her' field.  She wasn't overly impressed, but couldn't say much.  I told her she could use another field if she wished to turn out her horses, but she rarely does so that isn't a huge issue.  I also offered her another stable (much too small for mine, but ok for hers) as one of her stables had water in the front as the yard was flooding.  She said she couldn't move as hers are colts/stallions.

She then told me that she was withholding rent for one stable due to to the flooding.  

She will be getting notice.

All problems solved!
		
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Give 'em enough rope! 

Alec.


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## pixie (30 November 2015)

And good luck to her, finding space for her multiple colts, especially at this time of year 

Remember, its not your problem!


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## MrsElle (30 November 2015)

pixie said:



			And good luck to her, finding space for her multiple colts, especially at this time of year 

Remember, its not your problem! 

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That's what I worry about   I am too nice!


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## Luci07 (30 November 2015)

hmmm...not sure why this has now turned into a "bash the liveries" thread! 

I have been a livery for years. Sure I have pissed off my various YO's from time to time, they have certainly done it to me! I have voted with my feet when it became unpleasant but for the vast majority have been pretty happy. Moved to a private yard about 3 months ago and it is working really well for me. I am well aware of all the "hidden" costs (insurance, muck removal, utilities, etc etc) and how much time it takes just to maintain the status quo. I know how much feed etc costs, I know how much my horse costs and do wonder if I would really want to keep my horse at home even if I could!

I have read this entire thread with interest. Just one more thing occurs to me (and I don't know the answer) just ensure everything you do is completely above board. If it becomes unpleasant, then I wonder if the liveries think they could retaliate. I am not suggesting you are doing anything underhand, but just worth a thought!


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## crabbymare (30 November 2015)

good that its sorted itsef out. being the end of the month its perfect  timing for them getting notice and since she is witholding rent you could argue that she has broken the contract herself especially as you have offered an alternative stable. I would make sure that the letter - yes you do need to put it in writing - says that you are giving notice that she has paid to and needs to be out by x date. one thing I would do is if she is due to pay on the first then I would wait until the rent is in your hand or bank before you give them the letter as a lot of people will then decide to withold all rent. all be strong and expect her to come back with a lot of reasons she cannot move and wants extra tme to find a place. and if the others are moaning it will work as a kick up the backside to them that they need to behave.


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## Sandstone1 (30 November 2015)

Feel a bit sorry for your liveries to be honest. It's not their fault there's not enough room. A flooding stable is not on really is it?
Do it fairly and give plenty of notice to them, a few weeks before Christmas is not a great time to be asked to move.
Not saying you should keep the liveries but just put yourself in their position.


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## Pearlsasinger (30 November 2015)

MrsElle said:



			I wasn't living here in the summer, I have only been here a couple of months.
		
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So presumably the liveries were there before you?  I can foresee problems if the liveries complain to the landowner.  Perhaps you could move the grazing round so that those which come in overnight have the worst field, which might mean that someone decides to go anyway.  If not, I would give plenty of notice, more than the usual month to whoever you decide has to go, which will build goodwill.


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## willhegofirst (30 November 2015)

Y



selinas spirit said:



			Feel a bit sorry for your liveries to be honest. It's not their fault there's not enough room. A flooding stable is not on really is it?
Do it fairly and give plenty of notice to them, a few weeks before Christmas is not a great time to be asked to move.
Not saying you should keep the liveries but just put yourself in their position.
		
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But the livery has been offered a different stable that she has turned down. It is a difficult situation, the OP has only owned the yard a couple of months and it takes time to work out what works when you move to a new house, the livery with stallions/colts maybe need to appreciate what she's got and realise it may well be not easy to find a yard to take her horses if she's awkward with the YO.


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## Fools Motto (30 November 2015)

selinas spirit said:



			Feel a bit sorry for your liveries to be honest. It's not their fault there's not enough room. A flooding stable is not on really is it?
Do it fairly and give plenty of notice to them, a few weeks before Christmas is not a great time to be asked to move.
Not saying you should keep the liveries but just put yourself in their position.
		
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Christmas may not be the best time, but neither should the livery 'with hold' a months stable rent due to a bit of water, WHEN the YO has offered another field and another stable. With colts/stallions in question, I would be damn sure I wouldn't step on anyones feet for fear of losing my place. (I'd put up with the water, or ask/get something done about it). I'm sure that owner would know how hard it is to be excepted anywhere else!?


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## BSL (30 November 2015)

Sorry just read through properly so deleted stupid question


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## Pearlsasinger (30 November 2015)

MrsElle said:



			There is an update.....

I waited until the livery had come home to inform her that I would be putting my horses in 'her' field.  She wasn't overly impressed, but couldn't say much.  I told her she could use another field if she wished to turn out her horses, but she rarely does so that isn't a huge issue.  I also offered her another stable (much too small for mine, but ok for hers) as one of her stables had water in the front as the yard was flooding.  She said she couldn't move as hers are colts/stallions.

She then told me that she was withholding rent for one stable due to to the flooding.  

She will be getting notice.

All problems solved!
		
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Having now read to the end of the thread(!), that sounds like the perfect solution!


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## willhegofirst (30 November 2015)

Pearlsasinger said:



			So presumably the liveries were there before you?  I can foresee problems if the liveries complain to the landowner.  Perhaps you could move the grazing round so that those which come in overnight have the worst field, which might mean that someone decides to go anyway.  If not, I would give plenty of notice, more than the usual month to whoever you decide has to go, which will build goodwill.
		
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I think you will find the OP is the landowner, so no problems there.


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## MrsElle (30 November 2015)

Ok, just to clarify a few things - 

This is my home and my business - holiday lets and bed and breakfast.

I rent the whole farm, house, outbuildings, land.  I have full responsibility for the full site and can utilise it as I see fit, as long as the rent is paid on time.

Yes, I inherited the liveries, but this does not allow them to take advantage. 

The liveries currently pay weekly as they did before I got here.  I plan to give six weeks notice, the contract states two weeks.  

All the liveries have a stable, storage and their own paddock, and use of the school, although it is currently underwater, as are most of the low lying areas of the farm.  We have two spare stables but they are too small for my own horses.  

I have embarked on a plan of repair on the yard, it is rather forlorn and neglected.  This is the first time the stable has flooded while I have been here, apparently it did it last year but the livery still paid her rent to the YO as there was no point withholding rent as the problem wouldn't be rectified anyway!  I can't get my head round that, I am planning on doing the work asap to remedy the problem but get rent withheld!  

I think that is about everything that needed clarifying!


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## The Fuzzy Furry (30 November 2015)

Great you have got partially sorted (yours ).
At least weekly payment means that you won't lose much if they do a bunk.
Are you doing notice to just that 1or all of them?


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## MrsElle (30 November 2015)

The Fuzzy Furry said:



			Great you have got partially sorted (yours ).
At least weekly payment means that you won't lose much if they do a bunk.
Are you doing notice to just that 1or all of them?
		
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It is just the one who will be going, the others are fine.  One sometimes needs bringing back into line, but she just gets a bit carried away and is easy to manage


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## MiJodsR2BlinkinTite (30 November 2015)

Am feeling your pain OP.

I wonder if some, if not all, of your problems are that you "inherited" these liveries?? i.e. YOU haven't made the choice about who YOU have on YOUR place, they were there already and it sounds to me like some of them have taken/are taking, the P!ss, mega big-time.

From what I've read on this thread, one livery has taken her @rse in her hand and given notice, yes?? And will be taking herself and her horses away with her, yes? So that's that one solved!! You may find that the rest follow suit. Let them. Do not panic! 

It may just be time for a change-around; which will give you a chance to get some new people in to your yard who will appreciate what they've got! 

You cannot help the weather; no-one can, and so I do not think you should be beating yourself up. You are doing the very best you can, under very difficult circumstances right now - this is the darkest and dampest time of the year and any YO will be tearing their hair out as every piece of land is like a swamp and it isn't easy to juggle the demands of liveries -v- the need to preserve pasture so that there's some grass left come next Spring!

Please OP do not take this as a criticism; but you mentioned that your liveries' horses had nice warm beds etc and all home comforts, as it were, whilst your own horses were out and hadn't.......... I wonder if, just if, they mebbe perceived that as a weakness on your part, i.e. you were in fact over-concerned for them, and sometimes nasty little people can take advantage.......??? Which is what I wonder has happened here? It isn't easy being a YO, sometimes you just have to Woman-Up to some people and tough things out. Not easy if you're a softy though! Perhaps you just need to get everyone together in the tack room, stick the kettle on, bring out some cakes, and have a good chat with them - and say, among other things, that you've done your very best to ensure that they and their horses have got the very best, and you're doing the best you can in the circumstances, and oh by the way they'll have noticed that YOUR horses are out in the gales whilst theirs aren't!! Perhaps this would be a way forward? A good honest chat might not do any harm and might just do a power of good.


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## keri66 (30 November 2015)

Sack the bloody lot of them


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## Goldenstar (30 November 2015)

For the ones that stay you will have broach the fact that well looked after and maintained yards cost more at some point .
Meantime get that notice served .


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## conniegirl (30 November 2015)

Vodkagirly said:



			Where abouts? It's 200k for a 3 bed semi where I live, outskirts of Newcastle.
Last time I looked, there was nothing with land for less than 800k on right move. Duke of Northumberland owns so much land that the price of what remains is high.
		
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No problems with that here. I'm just east of Hull, the place up the road had been on the market for 3 years at a slightly higher price but recently sold for £200k (I know the lady who bought it)


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## conniegirl (30 November 2015)

MotherOfChickens said:



			I used to live just north of there and agree. I actually think its by the by though, my place (less than 5 acres) cost a bit over £200K-why would that mean I should only charge £20pw for a livery if I wanted one? If I factored in an arena at £20K etc there's no way. it adds up and I'm not even talking any profit.
		
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Which is a fine attitude to have if you can afford not to have liveries.
On the other hand if you need liveries to help pay the mortgage then you won't get them if you charge more than £25 a week.


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## skint1 (30 November 2015)

Mrs Elle, I am glad you have found a solution, hope it works out for you.
I didn't realise that so many people who own land/stables  hate having liveries, as a livery myself it's kind of depressing, and scary. Mind I am lucky, my YO is a farmer- would hate to move to a small private yard and then find out the YO didn't really want me there and was waiting for me to transgress so they could chuck my horses out at will.


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## fatpiggy (1 December 2015)

MrsElle said:



			There is an update.....

I waited until the livery had come home to inform her that I would be putting my horses in 'her' field.  She wasn't overly impressed, but couldn't say much.  I told her she could use another field if she wished to turn out her horses, but she rarely does so that isn't a huge issue.  I also offered her another stable (much too small for mine, but ok for hers) as one of her stables had water in the front as the yard was flooding.  She said she couldn't move as hers are colts/stallions.

She then told me that she was withholding rent for one stable due to to the flooding.  

She will be getting notice.

All problems solved!
		
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I'm glad you have sorted things out. TBH I would have chucked the liveries as soon as you moved in, then re-let some of the stables once you had worked everything out.

As to the livery witholding their rent because of the flooding, I actually have a modicum of sympathy for them .  My wooden stable had been put up on rubble which extended in front of the doors by a couple of yards.  Then the owner got hold of a load of unwanted concrete and decided to lay it on top. Trouble was he didn't do a very good job and as a result water gathering on the concrete was directed towards the stables instead of away (there wasn't a proper drainage channel included) and from one end of the concrete to the other. To add to the problem, the muck heap was sited a few feet away and water running down the yard went into the muckheap and washed straw and shavings straight into the grid beside it resulting in a huge and deep flood, which also had no-where else to go - except straight towards the stables.  Unfortunately for me my stable was at the lowest point in the concrete dip so I had what amounted to raw sewerage 6 inches deep in my stable and the entire bed of rather expensive aubiose which I could only get from the next county, ruined.  I bought some special high-tech sandbags at enormous expense ( I couldn't handle conventional ones due to severe low back problems) and spent a great deal of time cutting channels to try to drain the future floods away, and basically bailing the stinking water away with a 2 gallon bucket but of course I couldn't exactly do that 24 hours a day so within half an hour of further rain it was just as bad as before.  YO knew full well how bad it was but would only get the drain sucker out if the other stables flooded as well and no longer-term cures were put into place..  I never withheld any rent, but to say it rubbed me up the wrong way is putting it mildly.  I was paying for a stable, not a paddling pool.


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## Merlod (1 December 2015)

skint1 said:



			Mrs Elle, I am glad you have found a solution, hope it works out for you.
I didn't realise that so many people who own land/stables  hate having liveries, as a livery myself it's kind of depressing, and scary. Mind I am lucky, my YO is a farmer- would hate to move to a small private yard and then find out the YO didn't really want me there and was waiting for me to transgress so they could chuck my horses out at will.
		
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I made a post a while ago about what I should charge for my basic DIY livery yard and found it quite depressing too how everyone was saying to get rid of the liveries etc. I have run this yard for four years, I jumped at the chance to buy it last year. I love my liveries and their horses, it wouldn't be the same being alone with empty stables going to waste! Not all YO's hate their liveries


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## Meowy Catkin (1 December 2015)

That's good to hear Merlod.  I used to be on DIY livery and I really hope that I didn't make my YO miserable while I was there.


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## sarahann1 (1 December 2015)

Merlod said:



			I made a post a while ago about what I should charge for my basic DIY livery yard and found it quite depressing too how everyone was saying to get rid of the liveries etc. I have run this yard for four years, I jumped at the chance to buy it last year. I love my liveries and their horses, it wouldn't be the same being alone with empty stables going to waste! Not all YO's hate their liveries 

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I've been reading this from the start, glad you've got a solution OP 

I'm another one though, who's thoroughly depressed at the livery bashing. I have mine on livery and having worked on a livery yard, I fully appreciate what I get and how lucky I am to  be at a lovely yard. I'm tidy, I often end up sweeping up after others because it annoys me the mess has been left, I'm careful with equipment, mindful of wasting straw/hay and follow the rules. If I have an issue I make sure I have a face to face conversation with the YOs rather than simply moaning about it.  

Not all liveries are henious creatures


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## Alec Swan (1 December 2015)

sarahann1 said:



			&#8230;&#8230;..

I'm another one though, who's thoroughly depressed at the livery bashing. I have mine on livery and having worked on a livery yard, I fully appreciate what I get and how lucky I am to  be at a lovely yard. I'm tidy, I often end up sweeping up after others because it annoys me the mess has been left, I'm careful with equipment, mindful of wasting straw/hay and follow the rules. If I have an issue I make sure I have a face to face conversation with the YOs rather than simply moaning about it.  

Not all liveries are henious creatures 

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Were you closer,  then I may be prepared to revue the no-livery rule here,  and just for you!   Of course there are inconsiderate and ungrateful liveries,  and just as there are those livery-suppliers who can be equally obnoxious.  In my experience,  your thoughtful approach to the question of 'tenancy' isn't the norm,  but with your approach I suspect that most decent YOs would welcome you with open arms!

Alec.


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## saddlesore (1 December 2015)

Merlod said:



			I made a post a while ago about what I should charge for my basic DIY livery yard and found it quite depressing too how everyone was saying to get rid of the liveries etc. I have run this yard for four years, I jumped at the chance to buy it last year. I love my liveries and their horses, it wouldn't be the same being alone with empty stables going to waste! Not all YO's hate their liveries 

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That's good to know! I've been a livery for nearly 25 years and this thread has depressed the life out of me!


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## Annagain (1 December 2015)

saddlesore said:



			That's good to know! I've been a livery for nearly 25 years and this thread has depressed the life out of me!
		
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It's not depressed me, but the livery bashing does disappoint me. I've been at a lovely yard for the last 12 years and really appreciate what I've got as do the other liveries. In return we all act like responsible adults, take it in turns to sweep the yard, keep things tidy and pay on time. I think both sides get a good deal to be honest. 

YO and her husband both work part time and run the yard and the small farm it's on part time between them. They would be the first to say neither of their working hours add up to full time. Yard is all DIY so I mean maintenance etc rather than services. They inherited the farm so no mortgage. Last year they decided to sell the farm but the more they looked into it, the more they realised even with the farm selling for twice the sort of house they wanted to buy, the surplus would soon be gone if they continued to both work part-time. They decided they would rather run the farm/yard than work full time in their other jobs so it can't all be bad! 

I'm thrilled that they did of course as I dreaded the thought of having to move or have a new YO.


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## FlashyP (1 December 2015)

I am often baffled by how the horse industry in general works, livery in particular  The attitude is bizarrely different from most other service industry's! I'm on a fantastic DIY yard now and feel incredibly grateful due to previous experiences and anecdotes from horsey friends. I try to be the best livery I can be, keeping things tidy, being considerate, etc. However, I have found it is common for liveries on some yards to be given the impression that YO's are doing them a favour by letting them keep their horse on their property and letting them pay for the pleasure! Surely it is not the livery's fault if livery is 'too cheap', that is just bad business sense from the YOs! Charge what you need to to cover costs (including maintenance) and to make a profit. A well run DIY yard, with decent facilities and maintenance, and keeping to their side of the contract can charge a pretty reasonable amount and still be in demand. Of course, liveries have to abide by their side of the contract, if they don't the YO has every right to give them notice to leave, but YOs do have to manage their yards and nip problems in the bud early. 

I appreciate the OP is in a situation not entirely planned and the situation may be resolving, but I don't understand why the  livery should pay for a flooded stable! Most people are reasonable and do understand that these things happen, but something like that should be resolved within a few days, if not then I can't see why they should pay for it! I don't think many people would pay for a room in a hotel with a soaking wet bed  To have your own place with land, stables and buildings you can't even remember you own (!), is a total fantasy for thousands of us and for most of us it is unlikely to ever come true, no matter how hard we work and save. I'd be counting my blessings everyday if I was in your position! At the moment, I'd be thinking longterm, if I really didn't want them there, I ask them to move in the spring, winter is a crap time to move yards and especially around xmas/new year! What's a few months in the grand scheme of things, you have years to enjoy your lovely place once they have gone and it's a bit kinder and more compassionate; they haven't chosen to be in this situation either.


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## willhegofirst (1 December 2015)

I have been a livery for well over 30 years, 20 of which was on the same yard, and as I mentioned before I do feel for the OP and her situation. I would like to think I have not often, it ever been a pain of a livery, but have been around long enough to know that like in any walk of life there are the good the bad and the down right ugly. I am glad the OP seems to have found a solution to her problem as I sure if she had not things would have festered between her and her liveries, resentment does tend to grow in these situations.


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## MrsElle (1 December 2015)

FlashyP said:



			....... but I don't understand why the  livery should pay for a flooded stable!
		
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I did offer the use of another nice and dry stable.  The offer was refused 

I am in no way livery bashing.  I love my other liveries, they are a great bunch even though they drive me mad sometimes!  However, I am able to communicate verbally with them, I have a moan, they have a moan, then we all eat chocolate and have laugh about it all!  

I feel sorry for the livery I have given notice to.  I tried to speak to her today, but she wasn't listening.  I was willing to sit down and talk about the issues and try to find a way forward, but she isn't interested.  I understand she is angry and upset, but she has to look at things from the point of view of others sometimes.  The door is open for her to come and see me and resolve the issues, but I don't think she will take me up on the offer.

I hate seeing people upset, but communication has broken down


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## ChesnutsRoasting (1 December 2015)

Am I missing something? Liveries are paying customers. I'm not aware of any other business that slags off it customers quite so much. If you don't want people invading your home then don't livery. And as for paying full whack for a flooded stable, I don't blame the livery for with holding the fee. My YO gets a nice income from liveries without doing much at all, on land that would otherwise be empty. I'm not surprised your livery is cross with you. Your land, your decision but don't be surprised when liveries get the hump because you've suddenly changed your mind about providing a service.


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## MrsElle (1 December 2015)

ChesnutsRoasting said:



			Am I missing something? Liveries are paying customers. I'm not aware of any other business that slags off it customers quite so much. If you don't want people invading your home then don't livery. And as for paying full whack for a flooded stable, I don't blame the livery for with holding the fee. My YO gets a nice income from liveries without doing much at all, on land that would otherwise be empty. I'm not surprised your livery is cross with you. Your land, your decision but don't be surprised when liveries get the hump because you've suddenly changed your mind about providing a service.
		
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I'm glad your YO gets a nice income from liveries.  I don't.  I do it because I used to be a livery and struggled to find somewhere to keep my horses.   

I have only just taken the yard on, and while it is currently in need of a fair bit of TLC, it is a project I am embarking on.  Fencing will be replaced, auto waterers will be put in fields, the fields will be sprayed in spring.  All this is at great cost to me, and when I look at the income and expected expenditure, I will probably be on a loss next year.  

The stable flooding issue has only come about due to ridiculously large amounts of rain - a whole months worth in 48 hours.  It's not as if it happens every week, or even every month, and the livery was offered another dry stable to use, but chose not to.

I love my other liveries, I love providing a service for them that I would be greatfull for if the boot was on the other foot.  The other liveries are more than happy with the service I provide and love it here, and I, in return, love having them here.

Yes, liveries are paying customers, but the service they receive on a small yard way above what they pay for.  I basically work for nothing, yes, my choice, but people like you spoil if for others when yards close down to due the hassle.

Sorry if my post is a bit snippy, I am feeling very sad that things have come to an end with my livery the way it has.


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## honetpot (1 December 2015)

ChesnutsRoasting said:



			Am I missing something? Liveries are paying customers. I'm not aware of any other business that slags off it customers quite so much. If you don't want people invading your home then don't livery. And as for paying full whack for a flooded stable, I don't blame the livery for with holding the fee. My YO gets a nice income from liveries without doing much at all, on land that would otherwise be empty. I'm not surprised your livery is cross with you. Your land, your decision but don't be surprised when liveries get the hump because you've suddenly changed your mind about providing a service.
		
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 I think now one would object to paying customers asking for the service they paid for, but in reality most people are not paying customers they are subsidised customers. 
 Land is 5-10k an acre, a stable costs £1500, then you have the concrete, drainage, rates and insurance. The last livery I had I ended up £400 out of pocket and that does not include the livery money not paid, and I thought I was careful.
  The best story I had was the lady with who had two ponies, who had to find somewhere closer to where she lived, with a very long back story. My husband spent his weekends putting up stables for her, we moved fences and tried to sort out everything so it worked for her. The day before she was supposed to move in she sent a text to say she had them put down because she could not cope with the stress. I saw her in the local supermarket and she walked straight past me.
  I have been a livery and in thirty years I have only been four yards, mostly moved because we moved house. The amount of stealing, nastiness I have witnessed have been unbelievable. I have also met some lovely people, and we have had some laughs, but the bonkers ones far outnumber the sane.


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## FlashyP (1 December 2015)

honetpot said:



			I think now one would object to paying customers asking for the service they paid for, but in reality most people are not paying customers they are subsidised customers. 

This is quite a good illustration of the odd attitude in the horse industry. Liveries are paying to rent the land/stable not to buy them! They have the use of those facilities while they continue to pay the rent, they will never own them. It's the same as any other rental business, be it house rental, car rental, office space rental, etc, etc. The yard owner will always have the capital expense, but will always own the property.
		
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## charlie76 (1 December 2015)

I run a livery yard, I really like the people I have and we all get along really well.
I don't make any money from it by the time I have paid for everything and everyone. 
Of course they some times do things that annoy me , that's life! But I would never come on a forum and start complaining and moaning about them in the same way I don't expect them to do that about me. 
If we have issues, we communicate and they are resolved. 
I do have the pick of the paddocks as its my yard but at the same time I maintain theirs to the same standard . I just have the slightly closer ones as I want mine to hand to ride. 
I really don't think ' talking' about your customers on here is the right way to go about things and could leave a really bad feeling.


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## YorksG (1 December 2015)

FlashyP said:





honetpot said:



			I think now one would object to paying customers asking for the service they paid for, but in reality most people are not paying customers they are subsidised customers. 

This is quite a good illustration of the odd attitude in the horse industry. Liveries are paying to rent the land/stable not to buy them! They have the use of those facilities while they continue to pay the rent, they will never own them. It's the same as any other rental business, be it house rental, car rental, office space rental, etc, etc. The yard owner will always have the capital expense, but will always own the property.
		
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While it is true that the analogy is similar, I have yet to find a landlord who is asked not to expect their rent that week, because the tennant has had a problem which has left them short of money. I know of no industry where the customer expects the staff to be there 24/7, for less than minimum wage. The customer should pay an economic rate for the place and maybe if more liveries demanded that, we may have a better general rate of horse care. IMO
		
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## charlie76 (1 December 2015)

YorksG said:





FlashyP said:



			While it is true that the analogy is similar, I have yet to find a landlord who is asked not to expect their rent that week, because the tennant has had a problem which has left them short of money. I know of no industry where the customer expects the staff to be there 24/7, for less than minimum wage. The customer should pay an economic rate for the place and maybe if more liveries demanded that, we may have a better general rate of horse care. IMO
		
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Oh I agree, but it will never happen! We are supposed to do it ' for the love!' Lol!
		
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## ester (1 December 2015)

Well my landlord at the very least have been warned that rent may be late- on the occasion that my employer couldn't afford to pay any of the staff. As it was they sorted themselves out in time so neither my rent, or my livery (paid to same person) was late. I also know of plenty of other instances where rent for rental properties has been paid late.

As DIY nobody expects anyone to be here, there are no staff on any wage, although the YO does manage to be surprised every winter that those of us with jobs won't be able to bring our horses in at 2pm .


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## milliepops (1 December 2015)

An interesting thread. Firstly I'm glad the OP seems to have a resolution.I hope things don't go too sour in the next few weeks.
I have to agree with Charlie76 though that discussing the ins & outs in detail on a public forum doesn't seem like the best plan of action :/ this could have been discussed in quite vague terms.

Re livery prices. Are YOs suggesting liveries should offer to pay more than they are being charged? Many of the posts read that way. If your prices are too low, you have to put them up yourself. People will decide whether they think your yard is worth that or not. If it's not... then you won't have any liveries, and that's not the fault of the liveries *either*   if other cheaper yards are providing an acceptable service.  It's just a market, surely?  
And for many horse owners, price isn't everything - horses are expensive and many of us are fully accepting of that. I'll pay more for a better yard and I won't be the only one!

I have been on some lovely yards with lovely liveries.  Agree with the poster that said that's within the YOs control, largely. Last one I was on vetted liveries gently to check they would fit in. anyone thought likely to be troublesome or upset the very friendly dynamic was politely refused.


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## Possum (1 December 2015)

The way YOs talk about it you'd think someone was holding a gun to their head forcing them to do livery...

But OP's situation I have a lot of sympathy with, I hope you managed to get it sorted with the minimum of drama, you're not responsible for the setup when you arrived and I guess it's only expected that there will be a few bumps as you get things set up as you want - it sounds like you're being more than reasonable with the notice period.


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## honetpot (1 December 2015)

FlashyP said:





honetpot said:



			I think now one would object to paying customers asking for the service they paid for, but in reality most people are not paying customers they are subsidised customers. 

This is quite a good illustration of the odd attitude in the horse industry. Liveries are paying to rent the land/stable not to buy them! They have the use of those facilities while they continue to pay the rent, they will never own them. It's the same as any other rental business, be it house rental, car rental, office space rental, etc, etc. The yard owner will always have the capital expense, but will always own the property.
		
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  Now no body is expecting anyone to buy anything but if you are running a business it has to make a net profit, which means when you are working out your profit you include all your expenses including loan repayments. While it is doubtful if many livery yards make a net profit , people tend to focus on gross profit which is not really a true profit and that's why livery tend to be set at not a realistic level.
  When you rent a house or book a hotel room you are paying for all the services, including the loans that went to buy a property, if you can not cover those loans and all the overheads you will go bust.
 If I rented out a room in my house I would expect the person to cover all their costs, electric, water, tv license, council tax,  including any rent or mortgage I was paying, if they did not do that their would be no reason to want to rent a room. It may be a smaller proportion than the house owner/ renter would be paying but the rent would go towards those expenses. I can not imagine anyone renting out a room and sharing their home and not expect to be better off, but that is what most liveries seem to expect. 
  If its a professional livery yard you should expect a profit after all expenses, if you are renting a horse space in your private residence (and this has insurance planning implications) you should expect to be no worse off.
		
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## FlashyP (1 December 2015)

honetpot said:





FlashyP said:



			Now no body is expecting anyone to buy anything but if you are running a business it has to make a net profit, which means when you are working out your profit you include all your expenses including loan repayments. While it is doubtful if many livery yards make a net profit , people tend to focus on gross profit which is not really a true profit and that's why livery tend to be set at not a realistic level.
  When you rent a house or book a hotel room you are paying for all the services, including the loans that went to buy a property, if you can not cover those loans and all the overheads you will go bust.
 If I rented out a room in my house I would expect the person to cover all their costs, electric, water, tv license, council tax,  including any rent or mortgage I was paying, if they did not do that their would be no reason to want to rent a room. It may be a smaller proportion than the house owner/ renter would be paying but the rent would go towards those expenses. I can not imagine anyone renting out a room and sharing their home and not expect to be better off, but that is what most liveries seem to expect. 
  If its a professional livery yard you should expect a profit after all expenses, if you are renting a horse space in your private residence (and this has insurance planning implications) you should expect to be no worse off.
		
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I don't quite understand the point. I don't think liveries really weigh up the ins and outs of the YO's business plan and why should they? They just want somewhere to keep their horse. If the yard is advertised at a certain price, it is not up to the livery to make sure the YO is covering their costs/making profit! If the YO isn't getting a net benefit (be that financial or just having someone to hack with or whatever they class as a benefit), then why would they be doing it? They are the ones with the property/land and therefore, they do have the upper hand in the relationship, if they do find themselves worse off after a few months, then all they have to do is give the livery/liveries the correct notice to leave and problem solved! In an ideal world all businesses would make profit and be viable, but again that is down to the YO/business manager to offer the services that are in demand and charge the price that covers their costs/gives them a profit. Similarly, if after having liveries on your private residence you are finding no net benefit or becoming worse off then give them notice to leave.
		
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## FlashyP (1 December 2015)

YorksG said:





FlashyP said:



			While it is true that the analogy is similar, I have yet to find a landlord who is asked not to expect their rent that week, because the tennant has had a problem which has left them short of money. I know of no industry where the customer expects the staff to be there 24/7, for less than minimum wage. The customer should pay an economic rate for the place and maybe if more liveries demanded that, we may have a better general rate of horse care. IMO
		
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Why would any customer demand to pay more for something than the advertised price? That would be totally bonkers  Surely the livery yard has to charge the appropriate price, not for the livery to work out what the economic rate is! And I don't know of any DIY yard that has 24/7 staff. Actually, I was one of those landlords who didn't receive their rent on a property for a few months due to the tenants 'circumstances' and me feeling sorry for them, I lost out on a few months rent, when it was obvious the rent was never going to appear I then gave them notice to leave.......which is what a YO not getting paid would do surely? Those tenants had difficult circumstances, I gave them a chance, but I couldn't afford to subsidise them indefinitely, and OK I did lose some money, but I still have the property. I don't see why a YO would keep a livery on indefinitely if they were not paying?
		
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## SO1 (1 December 2015)

If you dislike having liveries that much maybe you need to consider shutting the yard and thinking of having a different business. 

You will probably find if you have a good personal relationship with the liveries when things do go a bit wrong such as the flooded stable or you want them to swap fields they will be more amenable to doing so or less likely to complain. If the livery has stallions and colts and does not want to turn them out much then she probably will be reluctant to swap to a smaller stable if her horses are spending a lot of time in. From her point of view you are asking her to move to a field that is in bad condition so she will be even less inclined to turn out so her horses potentially will be spending more time in and they will have smaller stables. 

If she is withholding rent due to the flooded stable it sounds like the relationship has broken down to the extent you cannot have a decent conversation about resolving the problem within a reasonable time frame and what can be done in the meantime. I would not be surprised if this livery is already looking for somewhere else. If you hate the liveries then they may all pick up on this feeling and want to try and move on anyway, I don't many people would be happy or want to be at a yard if they knew their YO hated them.

The liveries will have had a big change with the change of management and not everyone deals well with change. Did you sit down and have chat with them all when you took over regarding what you expected and what their expectations are so you all know where you stand.

Would it be financially difficult if they all left giving their one week notice and you were not able to replace them? If one person goes then sometimes their friends want to go with them if there is space at the new place or when space comes up?

I am guessing for those that do not make a profit or much profit there must be some other benefit for having a livery yard such as being able to have their own place and not having to a livery on yard where the YO hates them!


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## concorde (2 December 2015)

I have been a well behaved , sensible DIY livery for some years.
I pay the rate I am asked to pay , on time. It wouldn't occur to me to insist on paying more than the advertised rate. I run my own business. If I didn't make a profit I wouldn't do it.
So a serious question... Why do YO run yards if they are making a loss ?
What are the other benefits , to them , of running a yard ?


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## charlie76 (2 December 2015)

Mine breaks even. I have mine as the standard of livery yards in the area were not good.
Over grazed paddocks, poor fencing, arenas that flood, mud, unsafe stables, smoking  in hay barns, the list was endless
This way I know my horses are kept in a safe , well mainted yard with good facilities. 
I also get on very well with all my liveries.


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## wingedhorse (2 December 2015)

concorde said:



			I have been a well behaved , sensible DIY livery for some years.
I pay the rate I am asked to pay , on time. It wouldn't occur to me to insist on paying more than the advertised rate. I run my own business. If I didn't make a profit I wouldn't do it.
So a serious question... Why do YO run yards if they are making a loss ?
What are the other benefits , to them , of running a yard ?
		
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Some yard owners have liveries to subsidise the cost of their own horses and the land management, rather than to make an outright profit.

For example if you have 10 stables, 15 acres, and a school. The cost of maintaining the land, and school, and facilities and running your own horses can be offset by the money coming in from liveries. 

Broadly, I think if you own the land out right, it is possible to make money running livery. If you are paying a mortgage or rent, you are more likely to break even, possibly covering the costs of your own horses. 

Also some people have liveries for company / turnout companions / hacking companions / to justify being able to employ freelance grooms as there are enough horses to employ someone etc.


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## webble (2 December 2015)

ChesnutsRoasting said:



			Am I missing something? Liveries are paying customers. I'm not aware of any other business that slags off it customers quite so much. If you don't want people invading your home then don't livery. And as for paying full whack for a flooded stable, I don't blame the livery for with holding the fee. My YO gets a nice income from liveries without doing much at all, on land that would otherwise be empty. I'm not surprised your livery is cross with you. Your land, your decision but don't be surprised when liveries get the hump because you've suddenly changed your mind about providing a service.
		
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Erm have you read any of the posts from the OP? I think you are missing something


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## milliepops (2 December 2015)

wingedhorse said:



			Some yard owners have liveries to subsidise the cost of their own horses and the land management, rather than to make an outright profit.

For example if you have 10 stables, 15 acres, and a school. The cost of maintaining the land, and school, and facilities and running your own horses can be offset by the money coming in from liveries. 

Broadly, I think if you own the land out right, it is possible to make money running livery. If you are paying a mortgage or rent, you are more likely to break even, possibly covering the costs of your own horses. 

Also some people have liveries for company / turnout companions / hacking companions / to justify being able to employ freelance grooms as there are enough horses to employ someone etc.
		
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This may be semantics, but if one is able to subsidise one's own horses, then the liveries must be generating profit. They might not be covering all the costs of your own horses *and more* but the liveries can't be running at a loss.

It might be that the YO has more horses than they can afford to run under current livery arrangements/prices, but that doesn't automatically mean that the yard is not covering its costs.

(this is taking the OPs discussion off at a tangent but it's interesting to find out other peoples thoughts on the matter. FWIW I'm not at livery at the moment, having the horses at home so just an interested bystander  )


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## wingedhorse (2 December 2015)

milliepops said:



			This may be semantics, but if one is able to subsidise one's own horses, then the liveries must be generating profit. They might not be covering all the costs of your own horses *and more* but the liveries can't be running at a loss.

It might be that the YO has more horses than they can afford to run under current livery arrangements/prices, but that doesn't automatically mean that the yard is not covering its costs.
		
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I wasnt including YO's time at minimum wage in the covering the costs of YO's horses. 

So would be a loss on paper.


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## milliepops (2 December 2015)

OK, I've only ever been at DIY where I've paid extra whenever I've had any 'services'.
The DIY yards I've been at have mostly been VERY DIY - do your own fencing, do your own land management, get your own forage etc so very minimal input from YO.


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## GemG (2 December 2015)

milliepops said:



			OK, I've only ever been at DIY where I've paid extra whenever I've had any 'services'.
The DIY yards I've been at have mostly been VERY DIY - do your own fencing, do your own land management, get your own forage etc so very minimal input from YO.
		
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Chuckle, yes I am feeling the 'very ' DIY vibe !

I have also been on yards previously where there are tons of facilities and everything was tip top, looked after etc.  there is a really huge variation on yards, from the amazing to the, well, er, ...amazing how no one gets injured!?!?


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## alwaysbroke (2 December 2015)

Interesting read, especially for someone thinking of opening a small livery yard, just dealing with the council, planning permission, the extra expense for the detals the planning officer wants although he hasn't actually visited the site is enough to put anyone off before they start!


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## The Fuzzy Furry (2 December 2015)

milliepops said:



			(this is taking the OPs discussion off at a tangent but it's interesting to find out other peoples thoughts on the matter. FWIW I'm not at livery at the moment, having the horses at home so just an interested bystander  )
		
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It is a bit 

I used to have liveries, but kicked them all out back in the mid 90's.
In 2012 I took on a friend who was a YM for another person. I lasted 9 months before I had to ask her to go, as her horse was a fence runner - it drove me nuts - and virtually detroyed 2 paddocks, they needed over a year to be back to a reasonable std. She did pay bills on time tho.
Next one was a good friend who only stayed for 3 months as the livery yard she moved to, closed down 2 months after she moved there! They had 10 days notice, just before xmas 2014.

The final pair was another old (school) friends 2 ponies of 14 & 13hh as summer grass liveries, May to Oct this year.
In additon to giving her a very good price, they cost me 680% more in usual water use (as they left hoses running overnight etc), also costing  2 extra muck heap clearances (they paid half each time) tho they poo picked, they didn't deal with acorns as promised but taped off instead (was the ruddy magic fairy going to clear them then??). The promised 'cover' for mine when I had a weekend away, disappeared (had to pay a groom to come in!) and I had to bite my tongue on various occasions as the daughter in her early 20's was a vile thing to her mother and myself much of the time. I actually changed my routines so I didn't have to see her, as they were only with me for a fixed time.

To be honest, having had a busy yard up till the turn of the century (love that phrase) I ruddy love it at present.
No extra trailers in the yard.
No texts late evening 'what rug should i put on' or can you just pop a feed into mine as I want a lie-in'.
No dogs digging in the fields or chasing the ferals.
Fencing and gates still intact, no messages left to ask about replacing a bar or more.... (and the fencing IS good)


TFF, happy with 7 stables, haybarn and 2 fuzzies.

Later, I'll start a thread with regards to the 'prospective livery' callers I have had just this year


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## ossy (2 December 2015)

I'm gutted that there seems to be such a low regard for liveries.  I livery and I'd hate to think the owners hated us being there.  At our yard we are a friendly bunch and I like to think I'm a good livery.  Pay on time, (a good price for what we have) pay for any extras, buy extra tea/coffee/biscuits on weekly shop for brew room, obey the rules, spent loads on their Christmas presents cos I do appreciate them, bake them birthday cakes &#128522;.  Please remember us good ones are out there and I just want somewhere nice to keep my horse so please consider this when recommending people just get rid of liveries all the time, it's not for everyone fair enough but the horse industry is going to be a even bigger mess than it is if people keep closing to liveries.


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## skint1 (2 December 2015)

ossy said:



			I'm gutted that there seems to be such a low regard for liveries.  I livery and I'd hate to think the owners hated us being there.  At our yard we are a friendly bunch and I like to think I'm a good livery.  Pay on time, (a good price for what we have) pay for any extras, buy extra tea/coffee/biscuits on weekly shop for brew room, obey the rules, spent loads on their Christmas presents cos I do appreciate them, bake them birthday cakes &#55357;&#56842;.  Please remember us good ones are out there and I just want somewhere nice to keep my horse so please consider this when recommending people just get rid of liveries all the time, it's not for everyone fair enough but the horse industry is going to be a even bigger mess than it is if people keep closing to liveries.
		
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Good post Ossy!  This thread has made me appreciate my YO (a farmer) all the more!


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## milliepops (2 December 2015)

ossy said:



			I'm gutted that there seems to be such a low regard for liveries.  I livery and I'd hate to think the owners hated us being there.  At our yard we are a friendly bunch and I like to think I'm a good livery.  Pay on time, (a good price for what we have) pay for any extras, buy extra tea/coffee/biscuits on weekly shop for brew room, obey the rules, spent loads on their Christmas presents cos I do appreciate them, bake them birthday cakes &#55357;&#56842;.  Please remember us good ones are out there and I just want somewhere nice to keep my horse
		
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^^^^ this this this 
I spent a very happy 14 years at one place, exactly as above. Like one big family. Not taking the P, not causing extra stress, I paid my way and then some, replacing things and fixing things without even thinking of it, even when it wasn't my horses that had cause the damage.  Still in regular contact even though I left several years ago, I'll pop up on Christmas day and take them some gifts.  I think *some* YOs have had *some* thoughtless liveries. I think pretty much all of my horsey friends are like me.


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## fatpiggy (2 December 2015)

ossy said:



			I'm gutted that there seems to be such a low regard for liveries.  I livery and I'd hate to think the owners hated us being there.  At our yard we are a friendly bunch and I like to think I'm a good livery.  Pay on time, (a good price for what we have) pay for any extras, buy extra tea/coffee/biscuits on weekly shop for brew room, obey the rules, spent loads on their Christmas presents cos I do appreciate them, bake them birthday cakes &#55357;&#56842;.  Please remember us good ones are out there and I just want somewhere nice to keep my horse so please consider this when recommending people just get rid of liveries all the time, it's not for everyone fair enough but the horse industry is going to be a even bigger mess than it is if people keep closing to liveries.
		
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You are right, there are some excellent liveries out there, but having seen some right bright beauties at the two DIY yards I was on, I'm willing to bet many YOs have to kiss a lot of frogs to get a prince or two.  I've seen blatant stealing, both from other liveries and the YO, abuse and neglect of ponies, penny pinching to the detriment of the animal, failure to pay rent (we are talking several hundred pounds owed by just one livery here), lying in order to get on a yard, failure to clean up after themselves and their horses, taps left on, smoking in stables despite all the signs, lying about having wormed their horses, I could go and on. And this is just two small yards.  Scale that up and I think a few eyebrows would need to be winched down mechanically.


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## ossy (2 December 2015)

fatpiggy said:



			You are right, there are some excellent liveries out there, but having seen some right bright beauties at the two DIY yards I was on, I'm willing to bet many YOs have to kiss a lot of frogs to get a prince or two.  I've seen blatant stealing, both from other liveries and the YO, abuse and neglect of ponies, penny pinching to the detriment of the animal, failure to pay rent (we are talking several hundred pounds owed by just one livery here), lying in order to get on a yard, failure to clean up after themselves and their horses, taps left on, smoking in stables despite all the signs, lying about having wormed their horses, I could go and on. And this is just two small yards.  Scale that up and I think a few eyebrows would need to be winched down mechanically.
		
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See you just wouldn't get away with that on our yard, you would get notice and be out on your ear.  Everyone on our yard was vetted and references taken to try and protect our friendly/family feel, if you don't fit your not in and our yard is full.


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## FlashyP (2 December 2015)

Same here, wouldn't happen on our yard, people are vetted and anyone not sticking to the rules is off, simple. I have seen awful behaviour at some yards, but this has generally been on places where the YO lets anyone on and doesn't manage the place.


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## fatpiggy (3 December 2015)

ossy said:



			See you just wouldn't get away with that on our yard, you would get notice and be out on your ear.  Everyone on our yard was vetted and references taken to try and protect our friendly/family feel, if you don't fit your not in and our yard is full.
		
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I suspect the YOs didn't want to lose the stable rent, although on the second yard when all the other liveries went to the YO and complained about a new one who was a horror beyond belief, we were told if we didn't like it WE could leave.  This YO was not really a horse person, had one of her own but was really a novice and there are plenty of bad liveries out there who can spot this a mile off and do some serious wool-pulling.  It is easy to say well just move off, but on the edge of suburbia, there aren't many yards, and even fewer half-way decent ones. As it was I was driving 60 miles a day, 7 days a week to keep my horse there and go to and from work. The other nearby ones were totally unsuitable.


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