# St. Nicholas Abbey



## merrymeasure (23 July 2013)

Coolmore have annouinced St. Nicholas Abbey suffered a career threatening injury at Ballydoyle today. They are trying to save him for stud, so shows how serious it is,. Hoping and praying the vets can save him.Such a wonderful racehorse.


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## Daffodil (23 July 2013)

This is dreadful news.    I could cry at hearing this.  Everything crossed he can be saved.


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## Meowy Catkin (23 July 2013)

Oh no!

I really hope that he can be fixed so he can enjoy his well deserved retirement to stud.


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## MerrySherryRider (23 July 2013)

What a terrible shame. Best wishes to all currently working with him and hoping for a positive outcome.


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## merrymeasure (23 July 2013)

St.Nicholas Abbey is to undergo critical surgery tomorrow on a fractured pastern in an attempt to save his life, for a future at stud. Hope all goes well for him.One of my favourite horses, always gave his best.


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## millhouse (23 July 2013)

What a dreadful shame.  Certainly hope surgery goes well for him.


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## merrymeasure (25 July 2013)

St. Nicholas Abbey is reported to have come through surgery, and is comfortable. A long way to go yet, but wishing this lovely horse all the very best, and hope he gets well soon. Well done to all the team at Fethard Equine Hospital, and best wishes to all at Coolmore, and Ballydoyle .


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## Daffodil (25 July 2013)

So far so good.  There's a long way to go but he's in the best possible hands.  With best wishes to all at Coolmore and Ballydoyle and the team looking after him but most of all to SNA.


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## caramel (26 July 2013)

Coolmore have tweeted this::
"Unfortunately St Nicholas Abbey had a major setback in his recovery during the night, suffering from a bad colic."
"He underwent emergency colic surgery at Fethard Equine Hospital this morning and the prognosis is very guarded at the moment."

Have everything crossed for him. Thoughts with all his connections.


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## scotlass (26 July 2013)

caramel said:



			Coolmore have tweeted this::
"Unfortunately St Nicholas Abbey had a major setback in his recovery during the night, suffering from a bad colic."
"He underwent emergency colic surgery at Fethard Equine Hospital this morning and the prognosis is very guarded at the moment."

Have everything crossed for him. Thoughts with all his connections.
		
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An unbelievably sad setback for the horse, the veterinary staff and his connections.

Hope he pulls through, even though the odds seem increasingly against him.


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## caramel (26 July 2013)

Am sure Coolmore will tweet if anything new happens. So sad. He's in the best possible hands now. Fingers crossed for him.


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## Daffodil (26 July 2013)

The last thing he needed.... just everything crossed for him.


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## merrymeasure (26 July 2013)

Awful news. Just about the worst. Having lost two to colic it is my nightmare. However, I know they will do all they can for him. Still hoping and praying. Come on St. Nick!


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## Dobiegirl (26 July 2013)

Poor poor boy, everything crossed for him, what a dreadful setback, Im really willing him better.


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## millhouse (26 July 2013)

I'm so so sorry to hear this.  Praying for you St. Nick.  Get better really really soon.  God bless.


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## AdorableAlice (27 July 2013)

Channel 4 just announced horse is doing well.


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## merrymeasure (27 July 2013)

Great news. He still fighting. A specialist from Kentucky has flown in, so he is getting the best care possible. Coolmore tweeted he is not allowed to eat, which is hard for him as he loves his food! Keep going SNA !


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## AdorableAlice (3 August 2013)

Channel 4 morning line just done report from the colts box.  Very interesting to see how they operated on the leg.

I think the programme is aired again on More 4 this morning.


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## amage (3 August 2013)

Here is the video: http://www.coolmore.tv/farm/ireland/78


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## Alec Swan (3 August 2013)

I wonder why they continue to refer to the damage as a "fracture".  The bone was shattered,  and as the Vet on the vid said,  as there were pieces of bone which had lost their supply of blood,  and bone sections were taken from his hip as a form of graft,  the break,  to me (and NO I'm not a Vet),  seems to be irreparable,  considering that he's a colt and that the plans for him are to stand at stud.  To restore such damage to a strength which will stand up to the stresses of his natural high spirits,  seems to me to be quite unrealistic.

That's the negative side of things,  on the positive side,  he's incredibly bright,  he's apparently eating well and in the vid he seemed to be pain free.  

One day,  when technological progress allows,  then specifically pasterns could perhaps be replaced,  as a whole,  with an artificial bone in its entirety,  almost like a hip replacement for humans or dogs.  At least it would never break again!

I hope that I'm wrong in my gloomy view,  and that the horse,  a remarkable animal in his own right,  makes a full recovery,  and goes on to his stud duties.

Alec.


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## AdorableAlice (3 August 2013)

My thoughts entirely Alec, but I didn't want to admit it.  That was quite some repair job and I hope it holds, but as you say it is realistic to hope it will hold 500kg + of high spirited racehorse antics in his paddock.  Lets hope so.

No one can say his connections are not trying and he looked remarkably well given what he has been through.  Few owners could have afforded or provided such care.


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## Clodagh (3 August 2013)

Poor horse. At what point does the value of his semen overcome his rights not to be abused in this way. He has now had two major surgeries, he muct hurt all over.


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## AdorableAlice (3 August 2013)

Clodagh said:



			Poor horse. At what point does the value of his semen overcome his rights not to be abused in this way. He has now had two major surgeries, he muct hurt all over.
		
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I doubt his connections would have continued to try to save him without adhering to veterinary advice.  His pain will be totally controlled and he will be monitored 24/7 by dedicated staff.  As the clip shows he is being fed by IV and he is taking hand fed grass.  His skin was in good fettle and he was relaxed in the box.

I think, as does Alec the real challenge will be some months down the line when he is moving about and commencing stud duties.  The best vets in the world are being used and if they didn't think the horse had any chance he would have been let go before now.


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## Welly (3 August 2013)

Its because the of the good work from vets like these and the money that coolmore has that we as horse owners will benefit from in the future.  And hopefully one day broken bones in horse will be fixed as easily as humans. I think they have done a fantastic job on this horse, yes he has a long road to go but he seems in good spirit I wish him well. But if it all starts to go wrong I hope they let him go to sleep peacefully


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## bonny (3 August 2013)

Welly said:



			It&#8217;s because the of the good work from vets like these and the money that coolmore has that we as horse owners will benefit from in the future.  And hopefully one day broken bones in horse will be fixed as easily as humans. I think they have done a fantastic job on this horse, yes he has a long road to go but he seems in good spirit I wish him well. But if it all starts to go wrong I hope they let him go to sleep peacefully
		
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Good post, there won't be any advances unless vets try and Coolmore has all the money and expertise needed to attempt fixing his leg. I can't understand why anyone would think he was better off dead than undergoing an operation.


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## palterwell (3 August 2013)

I don't very often post on here but I feel that I have to say that my pony was in the same situation last year although his original injury was different. I am sure that St Nicholas Abbey will be having plenty of pain relief and will be looking forward to his next pick of grass! I am really hoping for the best for him.


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## gadetra (7 August 2013)

I have to say I struggle ethically with this. The horse had, in my unqualified view, a catastrophic break, the bone was shattered. I can't help but think the horse is being kept alive, and had such a radical repair, for money, as opposed for the stallions welfare. Even for that, I wonder about the longevity of the joint as his weight will be crashing back down on that joint 200+ times a season as a stallion covering only, never mind being out etc. One of the screws appeared to impinge on the joint surface, which I worry about. I have a number of pins in my pelvis/hip and the pain has never left me. I hope he recovers well, but on the other hand, I wonder about the comfort of his future. I have no doubt he will get the very very best care money can buy, but I also believe there comes a point where you have to say enough is enough, it is not in the animals best interest to continue treatment. I wish him all the best, and I hope he will rally and live a long and happy life, I would be delighted to be proved wrong.
I sadly believe the horse is being kept alive for monetary interests, as opposed to his own welfare


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## bonny (7 August 2013)

gadetra said:



			I have to say I struggle ethically with this. The horse had, in my unqualified view, a catastrophic break, the bone was shattered. I can't help but think the horse is being kept alive, and had such a radical repair, for money, as opposed for the stallions welfare. Even for that, I wonder about the longevity of the joint as his weight will be crashing back down on that joint 200+ times a season as a stallion covering only, never mind being out etc. One of the screws appeared to impinge on the joint surface, which I worry about. I have a number of pins in my pelvis/hip and the pain has never left me. I hope he recovers well, but on the other hand, I wonder about the comfort of his future. I have no doubt he will get the very very best care money can buy, but I also believe there comes a point where you have to say enough is enough, it is not in the animals best interest to continue treatment. I wish him all the best, and I hope he will rally and live a long and happy life, I would be delighted to be proved wrong.
I sadly believe the horse is being kept alive for monetary interests, as opposed to his own welfare 

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You don't think that everyone connected with the horse has enough money for that not to be the overriding consideration ?


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## gadetra (7 August 2013)

bonny said:



			You don't think that everyone connected with the horse has enough money for that not to be the overriding consideration ?
		
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I think they run a business, and like any business people, want to protect a valuable asset, and future generator of considerable income. I think that is the main concern with an operation of that size. It is not run on heart, it is run by the coolest of business heads. They did not pet their way to the top!

ETA: In my opinion, the horse is being treated for their interests, not his own. I could be wrong, I hope I am, but the cost and suffering he has gone through to get to this point is not inconsiderable and there is a quality of life issue. I would be so proud if an Irish vet practice could succeed in treating such a catastrophic injury.

The Barbaro case springs to mind.


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## bonny (7 August 2013)

gadetra said:



			I think they run a business, and like any business people, want to protect a valuable asset, and future generator of considerable income. I think that is the main concern with an operation of that size. It is not run on heart, it is run by the coolest of business heads. They did not pet their way to the top!
		
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I never imagined they did ! They have alot of the best bloodlines in the world and alot of the best stallions already. I'm sure they can manage perfectly well without St Nicholas Abbey and that he is easily replaced. They obviously do hold him in high regard and their vets must think he has a chance of being saved for stud duties to have come this far in treating him. I really can't imagine why anyone would think the horse is better off dead....


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## gadetra (7 August 2013)

bonny said:



			I never imagined they did ! They have alot of the best bloodlines in the world and alot of the best stallions already. I'm sure they can manage perfectly well without St Nicholas Abbey and that he is easily replaced. They obviously do hold him in high regard and their vets must think he has a chance of being saved for stud duties to have come this far in treating him. I really can't imagine why anyone would think the horse is better off dead....
		
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That is just it-they have some of the most sucessful blodlines in the world, and they are not going to let him go in case he is the next SW or Galileo or Montjeu etc. They will ship him out muddling quick if he is not s sucess after a couple of seasons and there'll be no qualms about it.

 There is very little sentiment involved there. 

He is being kept alive an treated in case he turns out to be a money spinner, irrespective of his qquality of life! Yes medical advances are important, but you have to balance it with what you put an animal through to.achieve what and why. It is incredibly selfish to put an animal through a massive amount for the sake of human sentiment, or business. If the 'fracture' was less severe I would not question attempts to keep him alive to.lead a useful life in the lap of luxury, but my personal opinion is that this is not the case. 

It would be wonderdul if that is not the case, but that is just my opinion. It is neither right nor wrong, it is just my take on the situation. 
How boring would life be of everyone agreed all the time? :wink3:


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## Daffodil (7 August 2013)

I've only just seen this, and I have no sound on my office PC but from just being able to see the picture I think he looks marvellous.   Considering what he's been through he is bright, perky and seeing him weight bear on the injured leg is fantastic.

I have no doubt at all that if things do start to go wrong, Coolmore will let him go peacefully.

But at the moment he looks fantastic.

(I'd just be a bit wary of letting him pick up grass sitting on shavings!   Having had colic I'd hate him to ingest any shavings).


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## Alec Swan (24 August 2013)

Well,  it's been a month now since his accident.  Does anyone have any news of the horse,  or know how he's progressing?

Alec.


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## bonny (25 August 2013)

He's said to be well and recovering and the news from Coolmore is all looking good. I thought it interesting that they said he is lying down alot as I assumed with his broken leg he would have to stand for weeks, shows what I know !


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## leah_x (28 August 2013)

Just saw on Facebook that radiographs showed the steel weight-bearing pin in his cannon bone had broken after consultation, the surgeons decided to take it out. This was done on Monday night and the leg has been re-cast and St Nicholas Abbey is now bearing weight on the fractured leg.


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## gadetra (28 August 2013)

Gosh it is a real long haul. I really hope it works out.
At least weight bearing the broken limb will ease the opposite one. If they took out the cannon bone nail what is being used to distribute the weight off the break? All those pins and plates are hardly holding his whole weight?
I have to say, it must be an incredibly stressful job looking after him. Especially seeing him get up and down from lying. My heart would be in my mouth! I always thought a lot of damage could be done then. 
Here's hoping for a full recovery, I worry about his recovery though.


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## Elf On A Shelf (28 August 2013)

I do kinda feel sorry for the horse being put through all of this but he truely is receiving the best vet care money can buy.

I hope he recovers well enough to have his stud career but I have no doubt Coolmore will say enough is enough if the horse isn't coping.


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## Dobiegirl (28 August 2013)

http://www.racingpost.com/news/live.sd?event_id=1093474&category=0

Connections are saying this has happened sooner than they would have liked, I wonder how long the pin was meant to last before it was removed .

They praise his temperment which is obviously a godsend but he must also be having some sort of sedation to keep him calm. Poor lad I hope he makes a full recovery and becomes a really successful stallion.


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## amage (28 August 2013)

Dobiegirl said:



http://www.racingpost.com/news/live.sd?event_id=1093474&category=0

Connections are saying this has happened sooner than they would have liked, I wonder how long the pin was meant to last before it was removed .

They praise his temperment which is obviously a godsend but he must also be having some sort of sedation to keep him calm. Poor lad I hope he makes a full recovery and becomes a really successful stallion.
		
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Why must he be having sedation?? far more likely he could do a worse injury sedated without full contro of his faculties and would not be helpful to his recovery post coic


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## fburton (28 August 2013)

amage said:



			Why must he be having sedation?? far more likely he could do a worse injury sedated without full contro of his faculties and would not be helpful to his recovery post coic
		
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I suppose that would depend on the level (and type) of sedation.


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## Dobiegirl (28 August 2013)

fburton said:



			I suppose that would depend on the level (and type) of sedation.
		
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Thank you, I wasnt suggesting for a minute he would be fully sedated but just a bit to take the edge off him and keep him calm.


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## claracanter (29 August 2013)

This whole situation reminds me of the american racehorse Barbaro, who suffered a fracture, multiple operations and then ended up crippled with laminitis and was PTS a year later. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbaro.
It was so sad, the public really got behind him and the only justification for putting the horse through all this was his stud value.  I hope Coolmore will know when enough is enough.


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## Alec Swan (29 August 2013)

I would agree with those who are of the view that the decisions which were made,  and are still in place,  are made by those who take the fiscal view of all this,  and there's nothing wrong with that,  except that with such a massive trauma,  and with such devastating damage,  just how they think that this relatively young horse will stand up to the pressures of a stallion's work,  is beyond me.

I have no problem with the horse enduring a degree of suffering,  whilst he repairs,  that's what happens with injuries,  I just wonder if all of this is will be to no avail,  and at the first attempts by the horse to express his normal coltish joy for life,  all the work and worry of what will be several months,  isn't all for nothing.

Wouldn't it be good to be proved wrong? 

Alec.

Ets,  claracanter,  I've just read your offering regarding Barbaro,  thank you for that,  but it makes for uncomfortable reading,  doesn't it? a.


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## gadetra (29 August 2013)

claracanter said:



			This whole situation reminds me of the american racehorse Barbaro, who suffered a fracture, multiple operations and then ended up crippled with laminitis and was PTS a year later. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbaro.
It was so sad, the public really got behind him and the only justification for putting the horse through all this was his stud value.  I hope Coolmore will know when enough is enough.
		
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Yup me too, I mentioned it a while back. There was a discussion about the merits of using such drastic measures to keep him alive so he can make it as a stallion. I know how I feel about it but they've gone down that road with him now and I really hope he comes through it all, it would be miraclulous. I really hope he comes out of it and has a decent quality of life, and what they are putting him through is worth it for the horse. He is a potentially valuable asset, but he is also an animal so it is tricky to balance it out I think. It would be truly fabulous if he did come right though. But as I said it's happening now so I can only wish and will him well.

ETA I think St Nicolas abbey is a bit different to Barbaro in that he is weight bearing, so the risk of compensatory laminitis is somewhat reduced. He is not standing in a sling, and can move about. 

I still can't figure out what's taking his weight now that the cannon bone pin is out. I hope the pins and plates hold up and don't deform under pressure. Would that even happen? Such an interesting treatment.

That's what I was getting at Alec, I just couldn't get it out right!


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## claracanter (29 August 2013)

Alec Swan said:



			Ets,  claracanter,  I've just read your offering regarding Barbaro,  thank you for that,  but it makes for uncomfortable reading,  doesn't it? a.
		
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Yes it was awful. I was one of the ones who followed the story at the time, the daily updates and the videos of his progress. I wonder if these horses get caught up in a combination of vet's egos, unlimited resources, research opportunities and a quest for what is possible rather than what is best for the animal concerned. I'm not saying that that is what is happening with Abbey but don't you think if he was an average racehorse with an average owner/trainer the outcome would have already been decided.


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## gadetra (29 August 2013)

claracanter said:



			Yes it was awful. I was one of the ones who followed the story at the time, the daily updates and the videos of his progress. I wonder if these horses get caught up in a combination of vet's egos, unlimited resources, research opportunities and a quest for what is possible rather than what is best for the animal concerned. I'm not saying that that is what is happening with Abbey but don't you think if he was an average racehorse with an average owner/trainer the outcome would have already been decided.
		
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Absolutely. But your average racehorse isn't usually worth millions post racing. That is the only reason why he is being treated as he is. They are protecting/trying to assure their investment, save a potentialy extremely lucrative asset.
ETA not to say that's wrong, I think it is a perfectly reasonable reaction to have. It is a business, and if you can avoid making a loss you do what you have to do. It is at the edge of that justification for me though. The injury is catastrophic. If he pulls through to has a productive stallion career it would be fantastic, but i wonder how much the repair will stand up to.


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## millikins (29 August 2013)

Whilst I think this is a tragedy both for this poor horse and his connections, I do wonder if he should be bred from. Surely an injury like this would suggest an inherant weakness? It does seem that nowadays the focus on TB's is purely speed, soundness is no longer valued.


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## bonny (29 August 2013)

Millikins said:



			Whilst I think this is a tragedy both for this poor horse and his connections, I do wonder if he should be bred from. Surely an injury like this would suggest an inherant weakness? It does seem that nowadays the focus on TB's is purely speed, soundness is no longer valued.
		
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How helpful .....so Coolmore spend a fortune trying to save him and you think he's not worth it ! I suspect they considered that before they started.....


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## millikins (29 August 2013)

On a very basic level, unsound stock shouldn't be used for breeding.


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## bonny (29 August 2013)

I wouldn't worry though, I'm sure Coolmore have already thought of that !


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## AdorableAlice (30 August 2013)

Millikins said:



			On a very basic level, unsound stock shouldn't be used for breeding.
		
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Is there evidence of his bloodline being unsound ?    Any horse, regardless of breeding, type and discipline can shatter a leg for no obvious reason.

This horse will being receiving the best care that veterinary science has to offer and every aspect of his future recovery would have been considered before any decisions where made to try and save him.  

I hope Coolmore and the teams caring for this horse are rewarded for their efforts and the coming week is crucial for them as they have already explained to the world, following the set back.


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## Alec Swan (30 August 2013)

gadetra said:



			.......

I still can't figure out what's taking his weight now that the cannon bone pin is out. 

.......!
		
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My understanding was that the pin mentioned,  travelled through the cannon bone,  and there would have been contact between the outsides of the pin,  and the ground.  That's how I understood it to work,  but by drilling through the cannon bone,  I'd have thought that the risk of internal infection would have been massive (obviously not),  and I'd also wonder about the sole of the foot,  and the frog in particular,  and being suspended as it is,  without any weight bearing,  for such an extended period,  would or could be the reason for secondary problems,  as befell Barbaro,  for instance.  Not being a vet,  I don't know!

It would be interesting to know if anyone has ever replaced an entire pastern bone with one which was artificial,  as we and our dogs can have our hip joints replaced.

Alec.

Ets,  again I don't know,  but to answer your question,  as the head of the Cannon Bone will flare out to meet the knee joint,  perhaps a cast which has that "flare" sitting in the cup of a cast,  would work,  so that it would effectively be the knee which was weight bearing.


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## millikins (30 August 2013)

AdorableAlice said:



			Is there evidence of his bloodline being unsound ?    Any horse, regardless of breeding, type and discipline can shatter a leg for no obvious reason.

I don't know in this case. I just think the TB breeding industry needs to look at itself to ask if the breed as a whole is being weakened. If St N A were a prize winning Shetland/hunter whatever, his stud fees would not recoup his vet bills and his genes would be removed from the pool. There were some good threads after the GN about whether more TB's than in the past were breaking legs on the flat.
		
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## AdorableAlice (30 August 2013)

Millikins said:





AdorableAlice said:



			Is there evidence of his bloodline being unsound ?    Any horse, regardless of breeding, type and discipline can shatter a leg for no obvious reason.

I don't know in this case. I just think the TB breeding industry needs to look at itself to ask if the breed as a whole is being weakened. If St N A were a prize winning Shetland/hunter whatever, his stud fees would not recoup his vet bills and his genes would be removed from the pool. There were some good threads after the GN about whether more TB's than in the past were breaking legs on the flat.
		
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The NH bred TB is a rarity these days.  Many of the horses, especially at lower levels, running over fences are flat bred and are weeds.  I stood in the paddock at Hereford in the spring and 80% of the horses were tiny light boned types and certainly not bred for the purpose of getting 3 miles over fences.  The horses were the waste from the flat I suppose and that heads us into a whole different subject !
		
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## Clodagh (30 August 2013)

Millikins said:



			On a very basic level, unsound stock shouldn't be used for breeding.
		
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I agree, remember last year in Dubai when three horses broke legs in one top class (flat) race? Soundness needs to be taken into consideration.


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## JackAT (30 August 2013)

gadetra said:



			I still can't figure out what's taking his weight now that the cannon bone pin is out. I hope the pins and plates hold up and don't deform under pressure. Would that even happen? Such an interesting treatment.
		
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If I was to compare it to human orthopaedic trauma surgery, the aim of the plating, screwing and pinning isn't to replace the bone as a weight bearing structure, but to hold the fracture fragments in place sufficiently for the bone to heal, become strong and able to bear weight by itself again. Whilst this happens, the patient is told not to weight bear for a while to reduce the risk of the bones moving around again and not knitting back together properly. I'm not saying that there is no weight bearing done by the plates themselves once the person is weight bearing again, but it wouldn't be the full weight of the person, it would be shared with the bone. 

To make it relevant to this case, the pin took most of the load, and it has broken. The original fracture repair happened about 4 weeks ago (correct me if I'm wrong), which, if it were human, would be enough time for the fracture to have had a good start on its way to healing. Perhaps in the vets opinion, it was well on its way enough to take out and leave alone rather than expose him to another procedure. So the bone is taking the load, with a portion transmitted through the metalwork, which tends to be made of steel, titanium or cobalt, and I'm sure beefed up enough to be able to cope with such an animal.  

There is a risk of the metalwork deforming, and this may be increased with the recent complication, but I should imagine it is still small, and I'd trust the vet.


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## gadetra (30 August 2013)

Ah thanks for replies. That makes sense. When I seen it it looked as though the cannon bone pin went out to the cast, and dispersed his weight through the cast that way. 
Having had unconnected bones pinned together myself, I was non weight bearing for 3 months! (and I am a bit lighter than a horse - I hope! :eek3: ) Hence why I was wondering about the strength of bone healing and metal. it would be incredible if the metalwork did not deform with the weight of him going through it. The break looked massively unstable, I would have thought any bone growth was like a spiders web at this stage. 
Some animal all the same to withstand all that treatment and box rest. 
I also wonder about laminitis, how long the feet can stand suspension as Alec said. That is my biggest con wen about the whole thing. The bones can hopefully, and will heal, but the lack of mobility and stimulation of the hoof and musclestructure will take an awful lot to get right. Can his feet stand it I wonder.


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## Louise12 (30 August 2013)

I totally agree with the views expressed regarding unsound stallions. Is this bloodline unsound? Difficult to say. I do remember that when the three horses died in Dubai, Fox Hunt and Bronze Cannon both had Northern Dancer three times in their five generation pedigree, and Grand Vent twice. A short time later at Aintree Gottany Os I believe broke his leg, and he also had ND three times. SNA doesn't have that much ND, but he does have Native Dancer at least twice, and there is a theory that this is the root of some unsoundness. Bearing in mind that he will cover many hundreds of mares already inbred to ND and it is a worrying trend. Unfortunately Coolmore have an inexplicable obsession with this bloodline, and with Montjeu himself dead, and Dubawi/New Approach in the hands of You-Know-Who, well... very little will stop them trying to get this horse to stud. Soundness never bothers these boys - they stand NH stallions that were not exactly the paragons of soundness.


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## Honeylight (30 August 2013)

Louise12 said:



			I totally agree with the views expressed regarding unsound stallions. Is this bloodline unsound? Difficult to say. I do remember that when the three horses died in Dubai, Fox Hunt and Bronze Cannon both had Northern Dancer three times in their five generation pedigree, and Grand Vent twice. A short time later at Aintree Gottany Os I believe broke his leg, and he also had ND three times. SNA doesn't have that much ND, but he does have Native Dancer at least twice, and there is a theory that this is the root of some unsoundness. Bearing in mind that he will cover many hundreds of mares already inbred to ND and it is a worrying trend. Unfortunately Coolmore have an inexplicable obsession with this bloodline, and with Montjeu himself dead, and Dubawi/New Approach in the hands of You-Know-Who, well... very little will stop them trying to get this horse to stud. Soundness never bothers these boys - they stand NH stallions that were not exactly the paragons of soundness.
		
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Coolmore need to look at how they have manipulated the TB breeding industry in the UK by standing a fleet of ND male line stallions & little else. True St Nicholas Abbey only has one line of Northern Dancer, but will still not be an outcross to mares. Coolmore have sought out ND stock over the years & swamped the gene pool with them. they have allowed larger & larger books of mares. Trouble is beginning to develop. they have had a number of high profile horses die in Group 1 & Group 2 events & now this horse has a catastrophic break. I remember Ian Balding saying the breed was weakening, & that was some years ago.


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## Caledonia (31 August 2013)

Louise12 said:



			I totally agree with the views expressed regarding unsound stallions. Is this bloodline unsound? Difficult to say. I do remember that when the three horses died in Dubai, Fox Hunt and Bronze Cannon both had Northern Dancer three times in their five generation pedigree, and Grand Vent twice. A short time later at Aintree Gottany Os I believe broke his leg, and he also had ND three times. SNA doesn't have that much ND, but he does have Native Dancer at least twice, and there is a theory that this is the root of some unsoundness. Bearing in mind that he will cover many hundreds of mares already inbred to ND and it is a worrying trend. Unfortunately Coolmore have an inexplicable obsession with this bloodline, and with Montjeu himself dead, and Dubawi/New Approach in the hands of You-Know-Who, well... very little will stop them trying to get this horse to stud. Soundness never bothers these boys - they stand NH stallions that were not exactly the paragons of soundness.
		
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I am repeating myself here from previous threads - there is NOTHING wrong with Northern Dancer, he was a small wiry tough horse - he won 14 from 18 - there is no way he'd have had the influence he has if his offspring weren't tough and sound. Native Dancer, his damsire, won 21 out of 22 races. So he was pretty sound too!

There is virtually no similarity in the bloodlines of the three horses killed in Dubai until the 4th generation where Northern Dancer is great grandsire of Fox Hunt on the distaff line, and great grandsire of Grand Vent also on his distaff line. 

Survival of the fittest dictates that sound horses tend to be the ones whose genes carry on. Sadler's Wells is a prime example - loads of his progeny carried on running as 5yos, or went jumping. Istabraq springs to mind, and Hurricane Fly is by a son of Sadlers Wells. Genes of various horses die out because the offspring don't win.

Is it not accepted that the direct influence of an ancestor is pretty much diluted by the third generation anyway?

Today I had another look at these horses on the RP, and Fox Hunt was trained by Al Zarooni. Who also trained Rewilding. I'd say the coincidence of losing two top class horses was probably more linked to training methodology than inbreeding.


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## Mithras (2 September 2013)

Honeylight said:



			Coolmore need to look at how they have manipulated the TB breeding industry in the UK by standing a fleet of ND male line stallions & little else. True St Nicholas Abbey only has one line of Northern Dancer, but will still not be an outcross to mares. Coolmore have sought out ND stock over the years & swamped the gene pool with them. they have allowed larger & larger books of mares. Trouble is beginning to develop. they have had a number of high profile horses die in Group 1 & Group 2 events & now this horse has a catastrophic break. I remember Ian Balding saying the breed was weakening, & that was some years ago.
		
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St Nicholas Abbey is actually an example of one the toughest racehorses around, having raced at the top level for 5 seasons.  Furthermore, he is a true mile and a half horse, not a quick maturing two year old.  He is most famous for having won the Coronation Cup three years running, a Group 1 mile and a half race over the Epsom Derby course, but he also won in Group 1 company as a two year and raced in the 2000 Guineas as a three year old.  He is an example of one of the best of the tough, consistent Group 1 performers Ballydoyle has been churning out recently, along the lines of Rock of Gibralter and Sadlers Wells himself.  However, like many sports horses, he has suffered unsoundness, who is to say this is due to breeding any more than the exceptional demands made upon his physique?

His breeding actually contains little inbreeding to ND and, through Top Ville and Kris, contains a couple of outcrosses of what has become good old fashioned rather stout British miler breeding.  Unfortunately the TB racehorse is now very inbred to certain male lines, and this cannot rectified because new stock is classified as "halfbred".  However this is the same for many breeds, such as Irish Draughts, Cleveland Bays and much warmblood stock where it has not been diversified by breed societies.


I assume Coolmore have sought out this breeding because they know how to work with it and it succeeds - some of the horse produced from it have been outstanding and we have all enjoyed their performances.

I'd rather see Sadlers Wells/Montjeu/Coolmore type bloodlines than the US obsession with Danzig (broke down as a two year old), Nureyev (broke down early as a three year old) and Storm Bird (didn't train on as a three year old).


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## Alec Swan (2 September 2013)

Without any relevant experience of the likely influences of any stallions upon the genetic strengths,  or otherwise,  of today's TB,  and considering that I suspect that with our advances in genetics and veterinary care,  firstly that the pressures upon specifically the most precocious colts,  will be far greater,  and that as course records tumble on a fairly regular basis,  I'm none too sure whether the industry's wringing out a dry sponge,  or not.  

However,  for ever faster times to be achieved,  and assuming that the previous poster is correct,  as I'm sure that she is,  then to have endured at least 3-5 years of intense training,  would imply that the horse in question is probably as durable as one could expect.  Considering the horse,  as an animal,  had he been backed and broken as a 4 yo,  he probably wouldn't have been at any greater risk than any other horse.  

For his pastern to shatter as comprehensively as it did,  I'd also wonder if that would have been a soundness issue.  I would think it far more likely to be an accident where a massive trauma was responsible,  and not a weakness.  I'd have thought that a genetic weakness would be more likely to result in tissue damage,  as opposed to bone,  am I wrong?

Alec.


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## Clodagh (2 September 2013)

Mithras said:



			St Nicholas Abbey is actually an example of one the toughest racehorses around, having raced at the top level for 5 seasons.  Furthermore, he is a true mile and a half horse, not a quick maturing two year old.  He is most famous for having won the Coronation Cup three years running, a Group 1 mile and a half race over the Epsom Derby course, but he also won in Group 1 company as a two year and raced in the 2000 Guineas as a three year old.  He is an example of one of the best of the tough, consistent Group 1 performers Ballydoyle has been churning out recently, along the lines of Rock of Gibralter and Sadlers Wells himself.  However, like many sports horses, he has suffered unsoundness, who is to say this is due to breeding any more than the exceptional demands made upon his physique?

His breeding actually contains little inbreeding to ND and, through Top Ville and Kris, contains a couple of outcrosses of what has become good old fashioned rather stout British miler breeding.  Unfortunately the TB racehorse is now very inbred to certain male lines, and this cannot rectified because new stock is classified as "halfbred".  However this is the same for many breeds, such as Irish Draughts, Cleveland Bays and much warmblood stock where it has not been diversified by breed societies.


I assume Coolmore have sought out this breeding because they know how to work with it and it succeeds - some of the horse produced from it have been outstanding and we have all enjoyed their performances.

I'd rather see Sadlers Wells/Montjeu/Coolmore type bloodlines than the US obsession with Danzig (broke down as a two year old), Nureyev (broke down early as a three year old) and Storm Bird (didn't train on as a three year old).
		
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Very interesting, thank you. That makes perfect sense.


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## Mithras (2 September 2013)

Honeylight said:



			Coolmore need to look at how they have manipulated the TB breeding industry in the UK by standing a fleet of ND male line stallions & little else. True St Nicholas Abbey only has one line of Northern Dancer, but will still not be an outcross to mares. Coolmore have sought out ND stock over the years & swamped the gene pool with them. they have allowed larger & larger books of mares. Trouble is beginning to develop. they have had a number of high profile horses die in Group 1 & Group 2 events & now this horse has a catastrophic break. I remember Ian Balding saying the breed was weakening, & that was some years ago.
		
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Mill Reef of course broke a pastern and was saved for stud, where he became a highly successful sire and sire of sires.  But the ND blood does seem to be more potent in that it delivers what the racing industry currently wants more frequently.

Didn't it used to be said that the Godolphin Arab male line was the best?  But that it is slightly later maturing, and along with the Byerely Turk line, is in real danger of dying out.  I always think its a pity there are no efforts to save these male lines for the future of the TB racehorse.  Can anyone think of any remants?  Godolphin is represented by Ahonoora - Indian Ridge etc and Byerly Turk I can only think of In Reality descended horses like the 2000 Guineas winner Known Fact, but that was a while ago now.  I might have got those two mixed up!  There are of course far more female "families" than the 3 male lines, so the breed is not as inbred as male line only would suggest.

Anyway, good luck to St Nicholas Abbey and I hope he is saved for stud or at least retirement, as he really was an exceptionally durable horse.  Galloping horses regularly stresses all horses, inc eventers.


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## gadetra (2 September 2013)

Mithras said:



			St Nicholas Abbey is actually an example of one the toughest racehorses around, having raced at the top level for 5 seasons.  Furthermore, he is a true mile and a half horse, not a quick maturing two year old.  He is most famous for having won the Coronation Cup three years running, a Group 1 mile and a half race over the Epsom Derby course, but he also won in Group 1 company as a two year and raced in the 2000 Guineas as a three year old.  He is an example of one of the best of the tough, consistent Group 1 performers Ballydoyle has been churning out recently, along the lines of Rock of Gibralter and Sadlers Wells himself.  However, like many sports horses, he has suffered unsoundness, who is to say this is due to breeding any more than the exceptional demands made upon his physique?

His breeding actually contains little inbreeding to ND and, through Top Ville and Kris, contains a couple of outcrosses of what has become good old fashioned rather stout British miler breeding.  Unfortunately the TB racehorse is now very inbred to certain male lines, and this cannot rectified because new stock is classified as "halfbred".  However this is the same for many breeds, such as Irish Draughts, Cleveland Bays and much warmblood stock where it has not been diversified by breed societies.


I assume Coolmore have sought out this breeding because they know how to work with it and it succeeds - some of the horse produced from it have been outstanding and we have all enjoyed their performances.

I'd rather see Sadlers Wells/Montjeu/Coolmore type bloodlines than the US obsession with Danzig (broke down as a two year old), Nureyev (broke down early as a three year old) and Storm Bird (didn't train on as a three year old).
		
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Mithras said:



			Mill Reef of course broke a pastern and was saved for stud, where he became a highly successful sire and sire of sires.  But the ND blood does seem to be more potent in that it delivers what the racing industry currently wants more frequently.

Didn't it used to be said that the Godolphin Arab male line was the best?  But that it is slightly later maturing, and along with the Byerely Turk line, is in real danger of dying out.  I always think its a pity there are no efforts to save these male lines for the future of the TB racehorse.  Can anyone think of any remants?  Godolphin is represented by Ahonoora - Indian Ridge etc and Byerly Turk I can only think of In Reality descended horses like the 2000 Guineas winner Known Fact, but that was a while ago now.  I might have got those two mixed up!  There are of course far more female "families" than the 3 male lines, so the breed is not as inbred as male line only would suggest.

Anyway, good luck to St Nicholas Abbey and I hope he is saved for stud or at least retirement, as he really was an exceptionally durable horse.  Galloping horses regularly stresses all horses, inc eventers.
		
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Very informative and interesting. I am not a TB head, this gives much food for thought.

Ps I agree re Danzig. The few I have seen have nothing to recommend themselves with. He appears in a couple of sporthorse TB sires I avoid like the plague.

I suppose the ultimate problem is the obsession with precocity, early speed. It would appear more prevalent in America than Europe, but is becoming pervasive. 

It's not one of St Nicolas Abbey's problems though. On the Coolmore site, I can only see the video they made after his surgery, no further updates. Am I missing something?


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## Louise12 (3 September 2013)

Ahonoora is Byerley Turk line.


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## Honeylight (3 September 2013)

Diktat is one of the very few Godolphin line stallions in Europe. He is by Warning, by Known Fact.


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## ThoroughbredStar (3 September 2013)

AdorableAlice said:





Millikins said:



			The NH bred TB is a rarity these days.  Many of the horses, especially at lower levels, running over fences are flat bred and are weeds.  I stood in the paddock at Hereford in the spring and 80% of the horses were tiny light boned types and certainly not bred for the purpose of getting 3 miles over fences.  The horses were the waste from the flat I suppose and that heads us into a whole different subject !
		
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All NH horses are bred from flat lines!!!! At least those wastes from the flat are still doing a job in racing.
		
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## Honeylight (3 September 2013)

ThoroughbredStar said:





AdorableAlice said:



			All NH horses are bred from flat lines!!!! At least those wastes from the flat are still doing a job in racing.
		
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Well there were & still are some jumping likes. Where mares specialise in producing strong staying stallions for store horses. some of these mares were from none thoroughbred "Half Bred" from Mrs Prior's none thoroughbred stud book. Some of them had Irish draught way back & were of more substance than flat bred horses, they were selected for soundness & good bone, as of course were the specialist jumping stallions. There were of course always horses who hadn't been successful on the flat, or who had become unfashionable. Horses like Cottage, Escart & Vulgan proved successful. Some failed flat racing sires like Airborne, the 1946 Derby & St Leger winner & Black Tarquin the 1948 St Leger winner also; Black Tarquin was big with good bone & sired impressive jumpers.
What Millikins is referring to is the increase in flat cast offs going over jumps. There are less store horses, as there are less of the right mares & more crucially, less money to spend the time raising them.
		
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## Mithras (3 September 2013)

Thanks both Louise12 and Honeylight.  I'm not as up to date as I used to be!  Its good to hear that the other two tail mail lines are still just hanging on.  I'm really surprised there is not some kind of movement by someone in TB breeding to preserve those two lines, for future diversity if nothing else.


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## millikins (3 September 2013)

ThoroughbredStar said:





AdorableAlice said:



			All NH horses are bred from flat lines!!!! At least those wastes from the flat are still doing a job in racing.
		
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Thank you, wasn't me who actually posted that one but it's very interesting nonetheless
		
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## Louise12 (4 September 2013)

Mithras said:



			Thanks both Louise12 and Honeylight. I'm not as up to date as I used to be! Its good to hear that the other two tail mail lines are still just hanging on. I'm really surprised there is not some kind of movement by someone in TB breeding to preserve those two lines, for future diversity if nothing else.
		
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Well unfortunately this is where the destructive effect of marketing comes in. As you can see on here and elsewhere, people firmly believe that the Northern Dancer (and particularly Sadler's Wells) line is invincible and nothing else will do


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## Caledonia (4 September 2013)

Update on the Coolmore page.

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?...58579464.74061.287027754693618&type=1&theater

Louise12, in case you were meaning what I'd written, I would like to clarify that there is a difference between refuting the soundness of ND and offspring, and claiming they're "invincible and nothing else will do". 

If it wasn't directed me, then I apologise!


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## pip6 (5 September 2013)

It is a shame that breeding the NH type seems to have been sidelined behind getting ex-flat horses for speed that may be able to jump enough. These lovely big boned chaser types are brilliant, but too few people have the patience for them to mature. A few years ago the soundness issue was discussed on C4 racing, & I emailed in an article from 50 years earlier which predicted that this would happen due to the restricted gene pool (though they had no way of predicting how much it would shrink due to marketing, huge stallion books & the desire for a few specific lines). It actually suggested reinfusing the breed with some new arab blood. I'm not talking about the matchstick legged, banana faced with breathing issues that you see all to often in the ih-hand ring (often because they are so off their heads no-one would want to sit on them), but how about thoses with old breeding? I've mentioned before I'm involved with Crabbet arabs, which are linked to general stud book (registered roughly by turn 1900) & old english (registered pre WW2) lines. These are all true desert arab war horse types, athletic (excell in endurance), tough, sane, & sound! Feet like rock, excellent bone density, powerful athletes. It would take a few generations, but a little mingling of this blood (which after all is what TB came from & ows its athletic abilities too) could revitalise it. I know it would never happen, breeders wouldn't take the chance because first few generations would be too anglo for them. Wouldn't it be wonderful though if there was a serious breeder with foresight to try.

We are working with a muchsmaller gene pool, but work hard to find fresh lines, such as those that were exported to Australia & USA 100 years ago & left no decendants in UK. Yes every so often a stallion crops up that is more popular than average (was Imad, now Prince Sadik), but they don't get the lions share of mares.


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## Louise12 (5 September 2013)

Caledonia said:



			Louise12, in case you were meaning what I'd written, I would like to clarify that there is a difference between refuting the soundness of ND and offspring, and claiming they're "invincible and nothing else will do". 

If it wasn't directed me, then I apologise!
		
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Hi Caledonia - no, I wasn't directing anything at anyone personally, and you were stating facts. I might take issue with horses running 18 or 21 times in the US as being proof of soundness, mind you, but that's a whole other issue. If you read my post I only posed the question myself - and it is one theory that needs considering. There are people out there who have pages of examples of why the ND line is unsound, but the problem is that it is impossible to prove the same horses would have been sound with a different sire.. I don't know, but I do agree with other posters who champion more diversity. I just plough my own lonely little furrow using off-the-wall stallions that no-one has heard of. None of the progeny are old enough to race yet, so who knows if I am right. Certainly if I took them to the sales I would be lucky to get a bid, even if they are correct and from good mares. That is the crux of the matter - I don't expect to make a living from it, but there are many who do, and they simply can't afford to go against fashion, which is NOT based on horses being tough and sound longterm but about precocity and a quick return.


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## AdorableAlice (5 September 2013)

ThoroughbredStar said:



			All NH horses are bred from flat lines!!!! At least those wastes from the flat are still doing a job in racing.
		
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and they are getting weedier by the day.  I am old enough to remember the type of horse that David Nicholson, Jenny Pitman etc trained.  Proper big TB's with bone and depth, where are they today.


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## gadetra (5 September 2013)

Louise12 said:



			Hi Caledonia - no, I wasn't directing anything at anyone personally, and you were stating facts. I might take issue with horses running 18 or 21 times in the US as being proof of soundness, mind you, but that's a whole other issue. If you read my post I only posed the question myself - and it is one theory that needs considering. There are people out there who have pages of examples of why the ND line is unsound, but the problem is that it is impossible to prove the same horses would have been sound with a different sire.. I don't know, but I do agree with other posters who champion more diversity. I just plough my own lonely little furrow using off-the-wall stallions that no-one has heard of. None of the progeny are old enough to race yet, so who knows if I am right. Certainly if I took them to the sales I would be lucky to get a bid, even if they are correct and from good mares. That is the crux of the matter - I don't expect to make a living from it, but there are many who do, and they simply can't afford to go against fashion, which is NOT based on horses being tough and sound longterm but about precocity and a quick return.
		
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^^^^^^^So very true. It all comes back to business and money. And setting up a proper, rigorous scientific program to test the soundness of ND lines is too expensive, and hampered by significantly wealthy vested interests to happen. The level of inbreeding will reach a tipping point, I believe, where it will become too expensive to keep an animal right to race. Or maybe it will go like most things, and end up with only the very very wealthy owning/breeding/racing and everyone else working for them, so diversity is never questioned as long as results are achieved at any cost, so it may not become an issue. The small/medium sized breeder will disappear completely in that scenario. Jesus that can never be let happen!

I think your system is the only way around. Let me know when your stock get to the racecourse, I will cheer them on :wink3:


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## Dreamer515 (5 September 2013)

AdorableAlice said:



			and they are getting weedier by the day.  I am old enough to remember the type of horse that David Nicholson, Jenny Pitman etc trained.  Proper big TB's with bone and depth, where are they today.
		
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i agree. i have 2 ex racers myself but they are typical old fasioned steeple chasers in their looks and movement! flat racers are impressive but personally i find them to dainty looking. we need more big proper NH horses!


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## Louise12 (5 September 2013)

Thank you Gadetra, that's really nice of you. The problem we have in Ireland is that it is getting harder and harder to find the right sort of stallions. The small studs with the quirky little blood lines have all but disappeared, and many people have jumped on the Sadler's Wells band wagon in an effort to keep custom. The types of horse AdorableAlice and Dreamer515 talk about are getting wiped out. Where do you think wispy little St Nick will end up if he is a failure as a flat stallion?


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## gadetra (6 September 2013)

Louise12 said:



			Thank you Gadetra, that's really nice of you. The problem we have in Ireland is that it is getting harder and harder to find the right sort of stallions. The small studs with the quirky little blood lines have all but disappeared, and many people have jumped on the Sadler's Wells band wagon in an effort to keep custom. The types of horse AdorableAlice and Dreamer515 talk about are getting wiped out. Where do you think wispy little St Nick will end up if he is a failure as a flat stallion?
		
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Yep completely agree. I really can't find a marketable solution though. Breeders are extra cautious mow with the whole recession thing (those that survived it) so are going for what's going to give them the biggest returns at the sales, fast maturing, flashy fine flat types ND line animals. ND is nothing if not proven, but given the numbers involved it would be difficult not to be.
What doesn't make money is big, rangy, slow maturing, strong boned substantial NH types. They are almost extinct here. So sad. Some strong enough mares still around but dying out. It'll get to the bringing sand to the Sahara stage yet. 
Also what do you think of the influx of French breds in NH in recent years? I think this also has something to do with the decline in traditional NH types. They mature so much quicker but don't seem to last as long. Is this right? I may well be talking out of my arse but it us something I have noticed. Be interested in an opinion from someone who knows what they're talking about!


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## Honeylight (6 September 2013)

gadetra said:



			Yep completely agree. I really can't find a marketable solution though. Breeders are extra cautious mow with the whole recession thing (those that survived it) so are going for what's going to give them the biggest returns at the sales, fast maturing, flashy fine flat types ND line animals. ND is nothing if not proven, but given the numbers involved it would be difficult not to be.
What doesn't make money is big, rangy, slow maturing, strong boned substantial NH types. They are almost extinct here. So sad. Some strong enough mares still around but dying out. It'll get to the bringing sand to the Sahara stage yet. 
Also what do you think of the influx of French breds in NH in recent years? I think this also has something to do with the decline in traditional NH types. They mature so much quicker but don't seem to last as long. Is this right? I may well be talking out of my arse but it us something I have noticed. Be interested in an opinion from someone who knows what they're talking about!
		
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The French horses are not as inbred & a large number of them are Selle Francais rather than pure bred thoroughbred, this might make them tougher. I think quite a lot of them have had long careers, some of the training methods might have soured others though.
Interestingly many of the most successful stallions in the NH sphere in the recent past have been French bred; Manicou, Escart III, Vulgan & Cantab, spring to mind, so it is not a new thing. In the past the French were less concerned with speed than the British, however they have shortened their Derby, so that is not a good thing.

In my earlier post I didn't say ND horses were necessarily unsound (though he does carry Native Dancer too), but the rabid inbreeding to such a line has long term dangers for the breed. ND has been such an influence that half the thoroughbred population are bright bay with white socks & silver tails! The big problem is there are no tough lines to out cross to any more. Take a 1970s stallion book & compare it to today's & you will see what I mean.

Someone mentioned the size & substance of what is available for NH breeders. I remember John Dunlop saying on a TV interview that Millenary the ST Leger winner was being kept in training as he was too small for an NH stallion & not commercially viable for the flat. Take a look at the Weatherby's NH stallion book & who is there? Millenary! Well someone who has trained a horse should be aware of it's suitability for breeding a.certain type.


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## Caledonia (6 September 2013)

Louise12 said:



			Hi Caledonia - no, I wasn't directing anything at anyone personally, and you were stating facts. I might take issue with horses running 18 or 21 times in the US as being proof of soundness, mind you, but that's a whole other issue. If you read my post I only posed the question myself - and it is one theory that needs considering. There are people out there who have pages of examples of why the ND line is unsound, but the problem is that it is impossible to prove the same horses would have been sound with a different sire.. I don't know, but I do agree with other posters who champion more diversity. I just plough my own lonely little furrow using off-the-wall stallions that no-one has heard of. None of the progeny are old enough to race yet, so who knows if I am right. Certainly if I took them to the sales I would be lucky to get a bid, even if they are correct and from good mares. That is the crux of the matter - I don't expect to make a living from it, but there are many who do, and they simply can't afford to go against fashion, which is NOT based on horses being tough and sound longterm but about precocity and a quick return.
		
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Thanks Louise12. 

In fairness, even the allowed US medication wouldn't keep a horse sound enough for those sort of figures tho! 

As a general response to the rest of the thread, I understand to a degree the concerns over diversity. However the current racing population is mainly descended from just three significant stallions who were necessarily interbreeding within a tiny gene pool at the time. ND's impact is diluted by a far greater pool of horses than those initial three had access to, so I don't really see why ND's influence is considered a problem. He is a sum of his parents, and both his grandsire, Nearco, and his grand damsire, Hyperion, are in more pedigrees than he is. 

Two of the strongest NH sires of the last few years have those influences, without ND. They both are in Strong Gale's 4 generation pedigree, and Hyperion is within 4 generations of Roselier. 

Via the Coolmore influence there are clearly a great amount of ND bloodlines in the UK and Ireland as previously discussed. But the situation is similar in France too.

So whilst I am agreeing about the influence of that line, I wholeheartedly disagree about the soundness of ensuing generations being compromised because of it. 

One of the top jumps sire in France for a long time, Green Dancer, is a grandson of ND. He is the sire of Cadoudal (Big Buck's, Long Run, Fadalko, Lacdoudal), the damsire of Kalanisi (Katchit, Barizan).

There are a lot of French sires with ND in their pedigrees that have consistent winners in the jumps field (as well as some G1 on the flat) - Assessor, Kahyasi, Montjeu, Hernando, Passing Sale (Mon Mome), Montelimar (Hedgehunter) etc. 

Interestingly, several of the French stallions without ND have the Never Bend lineage dominant. Which takes us back to Nearco again. 

It's soundness and ability that have determined the direction breeding took, nothing else. Yes, there are fashionable stallions, and many new stallions are overpriced and overhyped, but that very quickly stops if the progeny are slow.

Racing over hurdles and fences is still ultimately about speed, even though a modicum of talent to leave the ground is important. The fastest horse mostly wins the race. Also, longevity in NH horses is in the main important, so that is considered too. No trainer is going to want to buy a horse that will knowingly break down. Just because NH horses don't look the same big boned raw types of previous years, it's not to say that they are more fragile. Bone density is not measured by size. Arabs are considered very tough, that's partly why they are incredibly successful at endurance, but you couldn't ever call them big-boned.

Many horses are lighter framed nowadays, but is that necessarily a bad thing? But to play devil's advocate, and it's just a thought - what's to say that it was maybe harder on horses in the past because of their size?

The whole discussion is fascinating, but far more complicated than just the influence of one stallion being responsible for all that's wrong with the breeding.


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## Louise12 (6 September 2013)

The problem with NH racing these days is that owners no longer have the patience to wait for the big, late maturing types. It's not that the smaller types are tougher, or even as tough, but they don't need to be. In these ridiculous times we live in a horse can win the Cheltenham bumper and be a grade 1 NH winner without ever leaving the ground. I can't agree with the comment about jumping ability not being important


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## Caledonia (6 September 2013)

Louise12 said:



			The problem with NH racing these days is that owners no longer have the patience to wait for the big, late maturing types. It's not that the smaller types are tougher, or even as tough, but they don't need to be. In these ridiculous times we live in a horse can win the Cheltenham bumper and be a grade 1 NH winner without ever leaving the ground. I can't agree with the comment about jumping ability not being important
		
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That's a sweeping generalisation about not waiting. Starting horses off in PTPs in Ireland is still a route followed by a lot of Irish horses. Denman got thro the ranks that way. If the big horses are good enough they win. Racing has evolved from the way it used to be run for various reasons, and the flat and jumps are far more interlinked than before. Dual purpose trainers used to be a rarity, and now they are relatively common. I think it's better for horses that there is a crossover. It offers more options for more horses. 
I don't follow that is it ridiculous that the Chelts bumper is a Gr 1. It's the end of a campaign in its own right, the first step for horses that are going to pursue a career in jumping. There's no reason for them not to have recognition. Plenty decent horses have begun their careers winning the bumper in March. 

I didn't say jumping ability was unimportant, but within jump racing it is unquestionably secondary to speed. Slow horses, however beautifully they jump rarely win races. Indeed, horses that jump too well tend to be slow thro the air. Istabraq, Hurricane Fly, Viking Flagship are the ones that spring to mind as being fast and slick over a fence. Then you have horses like Sprinter Sacre who can do both perfectly. That's where the heroes start!


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## Louise12 (6 September 2013)

Your post sums up why we will never agree - I would run all bumpers outside the rules of racing as schooling-only races, and don't consider the likes of Hurricane Fly or Istabraq true jumpers until they win a novice chase! It's great to hear all sides


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## Caledonia (6 September 2013)

Louise12 said:



			Your post sums up why we will never agree - I would run all bumpers outside the rules of racing as schooling-only races, and don't consider the likes of Hurricane Fly or Istabraq true jumpers until they win a novice chase! It's great to hear all sides
		
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So you only really class chasing as NH then? No wonder we disagree about the jumping! Although I did mention SS and VK!


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## claracanter (7 September 2013)

My TB is a 'good old fashioned type'. When I took him in hand showing he didn't get placed higher than 5th. I noticed the judges always picked the flashier, daintier types. One judge asked about his breeding and I said 'he's an ex hurdler by Generous.' She made some remark about him not being one of the more fashionable stallions. I guess judges and those in racing don't like that type.


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## gadetra (7 September 2013)

claracanter said:



			My TB is a 'good old fashioned type'. When I took him in hand showing he didn't get placed higher than 5th. I noticed the judges always picked the flashier, daintier types. One judge asked about his breeding and I said 'he's an ex hurdler by Generous.' She made some remark about him not being one of the more fashionable stallions. I guess judges and those in racing don't like that type.
		
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Hmm I much prefer the old fashioned type! Much more my style. I hate the greyhound look, but ultimately it comes down to what crosses the line first and makes the most money (more importantly!) and the downhill, flashy, light boned and framed animal has a tendency to do that a lot now! I am with others with the lack of type left in NH animals. It is a big big problem for us sporthorse breeders too. At one of the first racehorse to riding horse classes in Dublin War of Attrition won it. Super stamp of a horse, middleweight really. I seen him run as a 4 year old in Fairyhouse and he looked impressive but not being a TB person I had no idea he would turn out so good, I did not know what I was looking at! Poor old Colonel Rayburn was last, god there's a big, hefty, ugly horse-but I loved him! He didn't settle at all, sweated up and pranced around! He was like rather camel like but then who cares what he looks like when you see what he did on the track (I wouldn't have picked him out as a young one that's for sure! ).


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## DonkeyClub (8 September 2013)

The racehorses that have broken down in & died in racing like eight belles, barbaro, ruffian etc carried many in crosses to native dancer-  which is a very weak and unsound line to be inbred to. People were actually able to predict these horses deaths before they died.. 
St Nicholas only seems to have native dancer once very far back in his pedigree, so in this case genetics was not the cause.


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## Mithras (8 September 2013)

pip6 said:



			It is a shame that breeding the NH type seems to have been sidelined behind getting ex-flat horses for speed that may be able to jump enough. These lovely big boned chaser types are brilliant, but too few people have the patience for them to mature. A few years ago the soundness issue was discussed on C4 racing, & I emailed in an article from 50 years earlier which predicted that this would happen due to the restricted gene pool (though they had no way of predicting how much it would shrink due to marketing, huge stallion books & the desire for a few specific lines). It actually suggested reinfusing the breed with some new arab blood. I'm not talking about the matchstick legged, banana faced with breathing issues that you see all to often in the ih-hand ring (often because they are so off their heads no-one would want to sit on them), but how about thoses with old breeding? I've mentioned before I'm involved with Crabbet arabs, which are linked to general stud book (registered roughly by turn 1900) & old english (registered pre WW2) lines. These are all true desert arab war horse types, athletic (excell in endurance), tough, sane, & sound! Feet like rock, excellent bone density, powerful athletes. It would take a few generations, but a little mingling of this blood (which after all is what TB came from & ows its athletic abilities too) could revitalise it. I know it would never happen, breeders wouldn't take the chance because first few generations would be too anglo for them. Wouldn't it be wonderful though if there was a serious breeder with foresight to try.

We are working with a muchsmaller gene pool, but work hard to find fresh lines, such as those that were exported to Australia & USA 100 years ago & left no decendants in UK. Yes every so often a stallion crops up that is more popular than average (was Imad, now Prince Sadik), but they don't get the lions share of mares.
		
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In recent years, German breeding has really come to the fore.  Previously it was considered unfashionable, despite producing such successful racehorses and sires such as Star Appeal (and the dam of Slip Anchor), but the Germans have concentrated on soundness, good conformation and durability, often at the expense of the quick maturing types which have seen a fast return for pinhookers and breeders backing unproven stallions looking for the next big thing.  In fact, we've seen much more international breeding in successful pedigrees in recent years, which is an interesting trend.

And the obsession with black type and pattern races has coincided with the move towards even more inbreeding to fashionable sires and families.  It does sort of encourage it - it is a statistician's dream.  As does the quicker return provided by yet more fast maturing two year olds, sprinters and milers.  What the French have done - reducing the length of their Derby - is a nightmare.  Do we want to end up with Quarter Horses eventually?!

As for outcrossing - why only Arabs?  The TB is a product also of English hunter mares, so why not bring in Cleveland Bays, and some of the better types of warmblood?  But we've probably not reached that stage yet.  And you would need special prizes perhaps to encourage it.  I do wish though that some breeders would try to preserve the Godlophin and Byerley Turk male lines.


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## Elf On A Shelf (8 September 2013)

The French have been crossing with Selle Francais horses to make some tougher jumpers. Whilst a lot of these horses took off and everyone wanted a piece of them a few years ago, even the French are now taking flat horses jumping and so the trend of daintier continues. 

Something needs done to put some more substance back into these horses but until you find someone brave enough with the time, money and patience to do the right crosses you will be fighting a losing battle. Plus these horses would naturally be slower and thus less desirable because they won't be winning. You might get a good one but they would be few and far between. And so the dainty trend continues!


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## Louise12 (9 September 2013)

EKW said:



			Something needs done to put some more substance back into these horses but until you find someone brave enough with the time, money and patience to do the right crosses you will be fighting a losing battle. Plus these horses would naturally be slower and thus less desirable because they won't be winning. You might get a good one but they would be few and far between. And so the dainty trend continues!
		
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Wont be winning early in their career all right (I think that is what you imply). I bet they would win the 3 mile chases  problem is they may be on the scrap heap by then because you need to wait and persist. Although its obvious that the horse that gets from A to B the fastest wins the race, I cant have it that jump racing is JUST about speed. If that were the case then Hurricane Fly would have been aimed at the Gold Cup (Champion Chase perhaps in his case), as would Big Bucks. They stay hurdling because of their limitations, not their superiority. Back to Caledonia's question, I think the pinnacle of NH racing is the Gold Cup, and the aim should always be chasing. I can respect good hurdlers without really warming to them, and bumper winners I disregard until they show more. The problem I really have with the black type bumpers is the effect on breeding - mares with black type on the page that haven't even proved their ability to jump and stay. I would like to think that NH breeders try to breed a chaser, but recent trends show a move towards breeding horses that win early (hence a lot of bumper winners that don't train on beyond novice hurdles). It's a slippery slope, and I do think the ND line is a part of that. I suppose my main point is that the ND line's success is beyond dispute, but it is always good to question it and try and look beyond it - it's not in danger after all... so a bit of querying it is no bad thing, and back to St Nick, well perhaps it's time we thought twice about using unsound horses as sires, unless there is overriding evidence that they are a better option than a sound alternative. I don't know what the exact criteria are in Germany (already mentioned by another poster), but they do have some soundness rules for stallions, and we do seem to be seeing the fruits of that


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## claracanter (9 September 2013)

Really interesting post Louise12. Do you know any of the criteria for the soundness rules for stallions? That is a really good plan by the Germans. Bet it would never catch on here though.


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## Fools Motto (9 September 2013)

New video of him today on the Coolmore site.


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## claracanter (9 September 2013)

http://www.coolmore.tv/farm/ireland

The vet says he is confident he will make a full recovery which is fantastic news.
Poor boy does look terribly thin though


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## Fools Motto (9 September 2013)

Although he looks thin, in his condition I'd rather see that, less weight on his leg. Added bonus is that he does eat up, and won't take long to get rounder.. surely?


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## Louise12 (9 September 2013)

claracanter said:



			Really interesting post Louise12. Do you know any of the criteria for the soundness rules for stallions? That is a really good plan by the Germans. Bet it would never catch on here though.
		
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I'm afraid I don't Claracanter - I have looked for them, but have only ever found vague reference to the fact that they must have raced to a certain level and retired sound. Surely we have a German native on here somewhere, or someone familiar with German breeding?


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## Caledonia (9 September 2013)

Louise12 said:



Wont be winning early in their career all right (I think that is what you imply). I bet they would win the 3 mile chases  problem is they may be on the scrap heap by then because you need to wait and persist. Although its obvious that the horse that gets from A to B the fastest wins the race, I cant have it that jump racing is JUST about speed. If that were the case then Hurricane Fly would have been aimed at the Gold Cup (Champion Chase perhaps in his case), as would Big Bucks. They stay hurdling because of their limitations, not their superiority. Back to Caledonia's question, I think the pinnacle of NH racing is the Gold Cup, and the aim should always be chasing. I can respect good hurdlers without really warming to them, and bumper winners I disregard until they show more. The problem I really have with the black type bumpers is the effect on breeding - mares with black type on the page that haven't even proved their ability to jump and stay. I would like to think that NH breeders try to breed a chaser, but recent trends show a move towards breeding horses that win early (hence a lot of bumper winners that don't train on beyond novice hurdles). It's a slippery slope, and I do think the ND line is a part of that. I suppose my main point is that the ND line's success is beyond dispute, but it is always good to question it and try and look beyond it - it's not in danger after all... so a bit of querying it is no bad thing, and back to St Nick, well perhaps it's time we thought twice about using unsound horses as sires, unless there is overriding evidence that they are a better option than a sound alternative. I don't know what the exact criteria are in Germany (already mentioned by another poster), but they do have some soundness rules for stallions, and we do seem to be seeing the fruits of that 

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Nobody is saying *jump racing is JUST about speed*. But jumping is not the criteria for winning races, otherwise we'd be running warmbloods! Jumpers have to get across the fence/hurdle as quickly as possible, but if they do it at 3mph slower than anyone else, they won't win. It's why it's called horseracing! 

I don't understand why you won't comfortably accept that NH has three divisions - bumpers, hurdlers and chasers. The Gold Cup is the accepted pinnacle of chasing, although that in itself has some sections of racing questioning that mantle. Many believe the 2m chasers arguably are more talented because of the speed they jump at, and that the KG is the real judge of the best chaser in training. Some less that classy horses have won a GC, but they rarely win a KG. 

Your original point that I disagreed with about bumpers was that there shouldn't be a championship bumper - look back at the horses that have won within the last 20 years - you cannot argue that there are no champions there!

http://cheltenham-festival.betting-directory.com/champion-bumper-winners.php

Surely a champion horse is one that can win at all three stages?

FWIW, much of the French blood input is TB or AA, it's just not TB as recognised in the UK. Selle Francaise just means riding horse, and it encompasses all shapes and types, TB included. If you look back thro the SF pedigrees in racing, they are mostly TB lines, possibly mixed with AA. 

The Fly is too small to go chasing, and really why should he? He's mopped up the hurdling division much the way horses have done for decades. Historically hurdlers jump differently to chasers, they need to be slicker and faster through the air. But they still need to have some ability to leave the ground. Big Buck's went back hurdling because PN had both Kauto and Denman for the GC, and there was little or no chance of him taking either of them on and beating them, given he didn't jump as well. 

I'm not sure there's much to worry about with NH.


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## Honeylight (10 September 2013)

To go back to St Nicholas Abbey....I don't think his injury was caused by his breeding immediately any more than Mill Reef's was, it was just one of those catastrophic injuries to effect a horse in training. Mill Reef had long pasterns & that is why Mellon sent him to the Uk to be trained, as it was thought when examined as a yearling he wouldn't stand training on dirt. As far as I know, his stock haven't had a more than normal breakage of limbs.
Never Say Die on the other hand was a very sound horse, who after a good start at the stud, got a lot of horses with weak bones & became unpopular with breeders...& of course he did get stayers. So nothing is cut & dried.
What I am concerned about is the increasing lack of any horses with out a line of ND & those who duplicate him & Native Dancer with the ND Mr Prospector nick. The decimation of the two other sire lines is also very sad & a worry. Because every thing is so financially orientated today & most of the small owner breeders have gone, I can't see a solution.


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## Louise12 (10 September 2013)

The scale of covering is a worry too. Mill Reef was destined to cover ~40 mares a season


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## Mithras (10 September 2013)

Can I just point out that St Nicholas Abbey is really not an example of an unsound horse - he has won the Coronation Cup three times over a mile and a half at Epsom, and raced at the top level ie Group 1 company for 5 seasons.  To put this in perspective, that is more than double the racing Frankel did, and over longer distances, and far more than Mill Reef.  St Nicholas Abbey is not at all what anyone would classify as an unsound horse.


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## merrymeasure (15 September 2013)

There's another update on St. Nicholas Abbey on the Coolmore website. He's looking good, and it's very interesting. Sorry, don't know how to put up link.


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## Honeylight (23 October 2013)

Just read on another forum that he has had a further setback; laminitis.


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## Dobiegirl (24 October 2013)

http://www.coolmore.com/st-nicholas-abbey-setback/


This was their biggest fear, lets hope he overcomes this and goes on to make a complete recovery.


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## merrymeasure (24 October 2013)

Very sorry to hear this. This was the problem with Barbaro, wasn't it? Hope he can pull through, both he and Denman. They deserve so much better


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## Alec Swan (18 November 2013)

Does anyone have any further news of the horse?  I've looked on their website News section,  and he hasn't been mentioned.  It's getting on for a month since his set back,  and I'm just wondering how he is.

Alec.


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## Fools Motto (18 November 2013)

Alec Swan said:



			Does anyone have any further news of the horse?  I've looked on their website News section,  and he hasn't been mentioned.  It's getting on for a month since his set back,  and I'm just wondering how he is.

Alec.
		
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Thought the same Alec, but like you haven't heard or read anything of late.


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## claracanter (22 November 2013)

Waiting for news here too. I'd hate him to go the same way as Barbaro. Although they say ' no news is good news' , I think we would have heard if he was out of the woods. Get Well Soon Boy


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## Exploding Chestnuts (23 November 2013)

I too am concerned at lack of update from Coolmore, he is either getting better or not, and somehow he was always a favourite among racegoers.


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## Alec Swan (23 November 2013)

I've just sent Coolmore an e/mail,  to enquire as to how the horse fares,  but as they've probably been asked the same question by media journalists,  and declined to answer,  so I suspect,  that I may not succeed.  If I get an answer,  I'll let you know!

Alec.


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## Exploding Chestnuts (23 November 2013)

Its not a bad idea to let them know Joe Public is interested


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## Dobiegirl (28 November 2013)

http://www.racingpost.com/news/live.sd


The latest update, not promising but they are throwing everything at him to give him every chance, I do hope he overcomes this.


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## Mariposa (28 November 2013)

I really hoped he'd have turned that corner by now. At least he is the best possible hands, I do hope he makes a recovery. Fingers crossed for him.


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## Fools Motto (28 November 2013)

In the best hands that any horse could ever wish for. Hope he shows positive improvement very soon. Bless him.


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## Alec Swan (28 November 2013)

Dobiegirl,  thanks for the update.  

I have a horrible feeling that with talk of pedal bone-support damage,  that all is not well,  and that the laminitis is actually progressing.  I hope that I'm wrong.

Alec.


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## Exploding Chestnuts (28 November 2013)

Alec Swan said:



			Dobiegirl,  thanks for the update.  

I have a horrible feeling that with talk of pedal bone-support damage,  that all is not well,  and that the laminitis is actually progressing.  I hope that I'm wrong.

Alec.
		
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I would have hoped that by this time things would be "on the mend"


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## Fools Motto (10 December 2013)

Another update... 
http://www.coolmore.com/st-nicholas-abbey-update-9/


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## Exploding Chestnuts (10 December 2013)

Walking out nicely, but no certain outcome as yet.


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## merrymeasure (10 December 2013)

Yes, walking nicely, but still very worrying. Not out of the woods yet.Still, he couldn't be in better hands, so fingers crossed!


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## claracanter (10 December 2013)

Poor boy. I hope they know how far to push him and he won't end up like Barbaro who suffered a long time before a decision was made.


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## gadetra (30 December 2013)

claracanter said:



			Poor boy. I hope they know how far to push him and he won't end up like Barbaro who suffered a long time before a decision was made.
		
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This was my concern from the very beginning. 

He is walking out well though in the vid so there is hope, but sadly I remain doubtful. Great to see an update though. It will be amazing if he comes out of it, I sincerely hopes he does.


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## Alec Swan (30 December 2013)

I've just looked back to the date of the opening post.  5 Months.  I wonder what that tells us.  I wondered if horses take longer for bone fractures to heal,  but then remember a horse which was cross tied for 6 weeks,  with a fractured pelvis,  and it was all but mended.

Alec.


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## Caledonia (31 December 2013)

There's a big difference in healing time between stable hairline fractures and shattered pinned bones.


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## Elf On A Shelf (31 December 2013)

Caledonia said:



			There's a big difference in healing time between stable hairline fractures and shattered pinned bones.
		
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A huge difference. Also he was galloping at the time so the bone would have been under massive pressure which bends it slightly so when the bone shatters it shatters bent and pieces will never fit back together properly. This is why 99% of bone shattered horses are put down. It would be interesting to see the shape of the bone fragments, how many they managed to puzzle back into some semblance of form and how many they disgarded as they were too warped. There are also the bits if soft tissue attached to and surrounding the bone, they need rearranged and fixed too.

Part of me wonders if it wiuld have been easier to construct a titanium replacement to replace the bone entirely ...


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## Alec Swan (31 December 2013)

EKW said:



			.......

Part of me wonders if it wiuld have been easier to construct a titanium replacement to replace the bone entirely ...
		
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I previously suggested a nylon bone,  but the end result would be the same thing.  Humans and dogs have bone-end replacements,  in their hip joints,  and as the bone in question is so short,  it would effectively be the same thing,  but from both ends!  I suppose that there's a reason why not.  Could it be that within the length of the bone,  cartilage or tissue is attached,  and that attempting to attach it to a foreign body,  would result in rejection?  Any vets about on here?

Alec.


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## Teaselmeg (4 January 2014)

Just watched the update on him on The Morning Line, the poor horse, obviously still sore, a long way from being improved enough to leave the hospital and has lost a lot of condition which they were trying to cover up by putting a rug on him.  

Very sad that this horse has been put through all this, just because you have the money to do this does not make it right !


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## Patterdale (4 January 2014)

I once put a horse through something similar. He was PTS at the end, but this was 7 months down the line. 
It is one if the biggest regrets of my life, but love for the animal can cloud your judgement. If someone is telling you 'there's a chance, there's a chance,' then you'll cling to that and do what you can. 
Never again, though.


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## Exploding Chestnuts (4 January 2014)

While,  I am also in agreement with above [Snow and Teasel] but the horse does not seem depressed, however we don't really know how much he has suffered, it is very difficult, having come so far to stop now, very difficult.
I think he looks worse in walk than he did the last time we saw him.
Thing is he is not probably not even going to be a top class stallion. Maybe just a field ornament.
I really don't know what I would do if he were mine, given that money is probably no longer the issue.
Any sudden downturn in his condition, any further complication, and he will have to be put down.


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## Honeylight (4 January 2014)

I had a cat once that was badly injured in a freak accident, I was at work & my partner phoned the vets & told them we were insured; they took her in the animal ambulance. Then kept her hanging on in pain for a fortnight before she was PTS. I kept saying isn't it time now for her to be PTS but they kept on at how she was young & would recover. Now I am suspicious that they were drawing it out as they knew my insurance would pay. Like SnowonSnow I often think about the little cat's suffering, she was so gentle.
Also there could be an element of experimentation by the team of vets treating SNA. Lets face it, a less prominent racehorse racehorse would have been PTS at the scene of the injury.


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## claracanter (4 January 2014)

I have just seen St. Nicholas Abbey on the morning line too. He's lost all his muscle tone on his neck, which is not really surprising and he looks so weak. Interesting about the medical grade maggots being put into the cast to eat away the necrotic tissues and that being quite successful. I'm with the rest of you, I don't think it's right to keep the horse going on like this indefinitely and he didn't look good in walk. The vet said how sensible the horse was being by lying down a lot. Poor boy.

 SnowonSnow' feels love clouded her/his judgement for what was best for their own horse but I'm not sure if that is the case here. Are egos, potential stud fees or pioneering vets clouding judgement for St.Nicholas Abbey. When will it be time to call it a day? Have any similar situations had a positive outcome?


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## Clodagh (4 January 2014)

I just watched it and found it really upsetting. So, he has gone off his feet but that is quite acceptable? He looked awful I thought. Because his semen is worth a fortune they can do that to him? I am disgusted with the treating vets as well as Coolmore, may they hang their heads in shame.


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## AdorableAlice (4 January 2014)

The horse is in the best possible hands with specialist vets in an state of the art equine facility.  The vets have a duty not to allow unacceptable levels of suffering.

He looked awful - no he did not his skin is good, he has lost muscle tone, of course he has what else would you expect on box rest.  I have been on house rest all year and I do not have a strong muscle left.  That is what happens when human or animal is injured and unable to exercise for a period of time.

He is not suffering, appropriate pain relief will have been in him from the moment he injured himself, his diet will be tailored to his needs and health status.

If you want to see real suffering just have a drive around this morning and see the wretched horses on verges and scrub fields up their knees in water and mud with no hay in sight.  There seems to be an awful lot of armchair jockeys, trainers and vets about at the moment judging by the quantity of ridiculous statements regarding this horse, Sprinter Sacre and racing in general.  I wish the horse and his connections every success in rehabilitating him.


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## Exploding Chestnuts (4 January 2014)

AdorableAlice said:



			The horse is in the best possible hands with specialist vets in an state of the art equine facility.  The vets have a duty not to allow unacceptable levels of suffering.

He looked awful - no he did not his skin is good, he has lost muscle tone, of course he has what else would you expect on box rest.  I have been on house rest all year and I do not have a strong muscle left.  That is what happens when human or animal is injured and unable to exercise for a period of time.

He is not suffering, appropriate pain relief will have been in him from the moment he injured himself, his diet will be tailored to his needs and health status.

If you want to see real suffering just have a drive around this morning and see the wretched horses on verges and scrub fields up their knees in water and mud with no hay in sight.  There seems to be an awful lot of armchair jockeys, trainers and vets about at the moment judging by the quantity of ridiculous statements regarding this horse, Sprinter Sacre and racing in general.  I wish the horse and his connections every success in rehabilitating him.
		
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Not sure I agree with much in this particular post, but I fear the odds are against full recovery.


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## Teaselmeg (4 January 2014)

AdorableAlice said:



			The horse is in the best possible hands with specialist vets in an state of the art equine facility.  The vets have a duty not to allow unacceptable levels of suffering.

He looked awful - no he did not his skin is good, he has lost muscle tone, of course he has what else would you expect on box rest.  I have been on house rest all year and I do not have a strong muscle left.  That is what happens when human or animal is injured and unable to exercise for a period of time.

He is not suffering, appropriate pain relief will have been in him from the moment he injured himself, his diet will be tailored to his needs and health status.

If you want to see real suffering just have a drive around this morning and see the wretched horses on verges and scrub fields up their knees in water and mud with no hay in sight.  There seems to be an awful lot of armchair jockeys, trainers and vets about at the moment judging by the quantity of ridiculous statements regarding this horse, Sprinter Sacre and racing in general.  I wish the horse and his connections every success in rehabilitating him.
		
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Whilst I agree that a lot of other horses are suffering in other ways, this thread is about St Nicholas Abbey and a horse that lies down other than to eat and go to the toilet is suffering in my opinion. After 6 months of treatment  I would imagine there will be a limit to the type of pain relief they can give him now without causing permanent internal damage and he obviously still has a very long way to go in his recovery. 

The only reason to keep going will be his potential stallion value, if he was a gelding I'm sure he would have been put down a long time ago.


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## Alec Swan (4 January 2014)

All so often,  when a horse breaks down  and that in effect is what's happened,  then the better way is that they are let down,  and even allowed to fall away.  The less weight and condition that that horse carries,  then the better his chances.  A comparatively weak horse will be keeping still,  and that's what's needed.  It sounds perverse,  I grant you,  but the repairing process will hastened by a degree of dormancy.  There are of course,  risks,  and his laminitis is one of those risks.

I too am sorry to see him as he is,  I too have grave doubts about the ethics involved in this case,  and I too suspect that it will all prove to no avail.  I will be the first,  and possibly the most willing,  to eat my words,  should I be wrong.  I'd be more than happy to believe that his owners were acting in an altruistic manner,  and would,  if I thought that they were.

Alec.


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## palterwell (4 January 2014)

claracanter said:



			I have just seen St. Nicholas Abbey on the morning line too. He's lost all his muscle tone on his neck, which is not really surprising and he looks so weak. Interesting about the medical grade maggots being put into the cast to eat away the necrotic tissues and that being quite successful. I'm with the rest of you, I don't think it's right to keep the horse going on like this indefinitely and he didn't look good in walk. The vet said how sensible the horse was being by lying down a lot. Poor boy.

 SnowonSnow' feels love clouded her/his judgement for what was best for their own horse but I'm not sure if that is the case here. Are egos, potential stud fees or pioneering vets clouding judgement for St.Nicholas Abbey. When will it be time to call it a day? Have any similar situations had a positive outcome?
		
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Yes my pony was in a similar situation and he had a positive outcome. I am sure St Nicholas Abbeys owners and vets are doing their best for him and it is only to be expected that he will have lost muscle during his recovery. Sorry if I have made a mess of doing quote but I haven't had much practice at this!


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## Dobiegirl (4 January 2014)

Yes he has lost muscle tone,condition etc I would be more alarmed if he was as fat as a house, he looked bright and perky, he is receiving the very best of care, Im sure the second he goes off his feed or spends more time lying down they will do the right thing, I hope they are successful in getting him back to full health.


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## Honeylight (5 January 2014)

I actually saw this when I played back the racing last evening.
I was pleasantly surprised at how well he looked after reading some of the comments.
Was a little alarmed by the fact he was down eating & also by the look in the boy's eye.
Hope he makes it.


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## It's Me Megan (5 January 2014)

Funny isn't it that racing is criticized when horses are destroyed after breaking down yet you try and save them and you still get called up on your decision, you can't bloody win 

Also for anyone interested a horse called Paynter in the States made a remarkable recovery from Colitis and Laminitis to win again on the track, his story is truly inspiring. http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-rac...etes-comeback-with-sizzling-win#ixzz2pYTZU3Dl




			At one point, while being treated for colitis, he had his feet fitted with casts after showing signs of the hoof disease laminitis. [...]After taking additional X-rays of the foot and discussing with some foot experts, Dr. Laura (Javsicas) has found out that he has developed (laminitis) in three of his four legs, which is heartbreaking." [...] His weight fell to the 900-pound range before rebounding late in the year. His recovery was voted the 2012 "Moment of the Year" in a poll of fans conducted by the National Thoroughbred Racing Association, and he also won racing's Vox Populi Award.
		
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## AdorableAlice (5 January 2014)

It's Me Megan said:



			Funny isn't it that racing is criticized when horses are destroyed after breaking down yet you try and save them and you still get called up on your decision, you can't bloody win 



Exactly, had they shot him on the track everyone would have said but pasterns can be mended, they didn't want to spend the money on him.
		
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## Clodagh (5 January 2014)

Dobiegirl said:



			Yes he has lost muscle tone,condition etc I would be more alarmed if he was as fat as a house, he looked bright and perky, he is receiving the very best of care, Im sure the second he goes off his feed or spends more time lying down they will do the right thing, I hope they are successful in getting him back to full health.
		
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But he has gone off his feet. The vet said he gets up to eat and to go to the loo and then lies down again.
I accept he should be skinny bbut he just looked defeated to me. I think it is cruel and the end does not justify the means.


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## Dobiegirl (5 January 2014)

The vet said he was happy he was sensible enough to lie down, when they walked him out he walked well and he seemed bright and alert, he is walked regularly to keep the circulation going, if he was lying down too much that would be a cause for concern, he didnt look defeated to me. He has good horn and sole growth which again supports the theory he is getting better. Im sure they have a date in mind where they want his progress to be and will make the call if necessary.


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## Honeylight (6 January 2014)

I think they actually showed the film to show that he was progressing well, if things were worse they wouldn't have made & aired the film.
Still think their is an air of experimentation with the horse, but then again that's what happened with Mill Reef & others right in the past like Swynford, who recovered from grave injuries through medical intervention.


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## suffolkmare (7 January 2014)

I agree that it would be odd to air the footage on ch4 if the horse was going downhill and not showing some signs of improvement. It came across that his temperament plays a huge part in decisions to continue treatment as he obviously has a high tolerance of all the procedures he's been subject to. Yes, there is definitely a degree of experimentation; while the horse is comfortable this can't be a bad thing for veterinary medicine and future equines.
I hope that he will come through, good luck and good judgement for his team...


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## Exploding Chestnuts (7 January 2014)

what are they going to do if they change the dressing and its stinking?


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## JanetGeorge (7 January 2014)

Clodagh said:



			But he has gone off his feet. The vet said he gets up to eat and to go to the loo and then lies down again.
I accept he should be skinny bbut he just looked defeated to me. I think it is cruel and the end does not justify the means.
		
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There's no doubt that he's having a rough time but they'll be doing everything possible to keep pain to a minimum and any 'suffering' he's having is very small stuff compared to 10s of thousands of horses around the world in many different situations.

The thing is - with this horse - the owners are prepared to put every possible penny into giving him the best treatment.  Vets will learn a lot from this and it may help other (less wealthy) owners and horses in the future.  Maybe his injury WAS one that should be considered not treatable - but if no-one ever tries ....


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## Clodagh (8 January 2014)

So if it is acceptabble, even to be encouraged, to keep a horse alive that can't stand up for any normal length of time? It will at least revolutionise treatment for 'normal' laminitics who I would think most people would agree if they can't stand even with massive pain relief it would be time to admit defeat?


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## JanetGeorge (8 January 2014)

I would say it's a good sign if the horse can stand up and lie down - and stand up again.  I nursed a yearling filly through a bad stifle injury who couldn't stand for more than about 2 hours - and if you let her stay down for more than 2 hours, she couldn't then get up without major assistance.  It took 6 months for box rest (with a little in-hand walking in the second half of the period) before she came 100% sound.  Should I have shot her??  As it turns out, she's 4 this year and I will start backing her in the next few weeks!

They're NOT treating this horse with financial gain in mind - the treatment will be costing a small fortune and with NO guarantee he will be capable of natural cover if he comes sound.  But it's early days in treating a fracture of this magnitude and the associated complications.

I have just finished treatment of my small terrier whose back leg was badly smashed when he was run over - it took 5 months!!  Maybe I should have put him down?  Maybe I should have just had the leg amputated (my own vets offered that - the fracture was too bad for them and he had to go to an ortho specialist.)


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## AdorableAlice (8 January 2014)

MrsD123 said:



			what are they going to do if they change the dressing and its stinking?
		
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The horse will be on long term antibiotics to prevent this happening.


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## Teaselmeg (8 January 2014)

I don't think there can be any doubt that all this is being done to salvage him as a stallion prospect and the cost of his veterinary treatment will be tiny compared to his value as a stallion, if he survives.  

I just feel that after the great days that this horse gave them on the racetrack, that he does not deserve to be put through all this now, he is a long way from leaving the vets and seeing a paddock.  If he had healed well and not developed laminitis then I would say good on them, but once he developed laminitis I think that was the point to say ' we tried our best' and give him peace. He does not deserve to be guinea pig.


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## AdorableAlice (8 January 2014)

No animal or human deserves to be used as a guinea pig but without the medics trying and learning how has medicine got to the level it has ?

Years ago there was no colic surgery, bones mended, joints medicated etc and likewise in our medicine organ transplants, cancer treatments etc.  Medicine evolves and always will.


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## Teaselmeg (8 January 2014)

AdorableAlice said:



			No animal or human deserves to be used as a guinea pig but without the medics trying and learning how has medicine got to the level it has ?

Years ago there was no colic surgery, bones mended, joints medicated etc and likewise in our medicine organ transplants, cancer treatments etc.  Medicine evolves and always will.
		
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And I agree with you that people have to push the boundaries for medicine to evolve and improve, but this horse had a joint on the other leg that shattered into many pieces and has been dealing with the pain and discomfort of that long before the laminitis started.  Why should he carry on suffering so that people can learn a little bit more about dealing with laminitis ?  

I truly hope he does get better, he was a great racehorse.


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## katherinef (8 January 2014)

To my mind he has gone downhill since the last update and looks like he is suffering. He looks like a walking laboratory experiment.

There is scarring over his hip is this where the bone grafting was done?

This has gone too far now he is skeletal.


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## Exploding Chestnuts (8 January 2014)

I will be honest, there are other stallions....  it has got the the stage where they are painting themselves in to a corner,  in a way. 
If they put him down now, they will be criticised for holding on too long, if things get worse they will have to put him down, and take flak for not making the right decision earlier.
This could go on for a long time, and just the length of time makes it too long.

This sort of decision faces ordinary horse owners, where it is not black and white.
No ordinary person would have done anything other than p-t-s on day one, because it would be outwith the pocket of any ordinary person.
Technology allows vets to treat such cases, but there are welfare considerations, and also PR considerations. 
We are at the stage where the investment is not about ££££ any more.


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## Mithras (8 January 2014)

I do find the attitude on HHO overly in favour of pts, even when there is nothing wrong with the horse and the owner has just grown tired of it.  I do find some of the comments on here a bit ignorant - I expect St Nicholas Abbey is either insured or contractually covered against loss of use as a stallion and that this is not the primary issue - tbh although he will earn stud fees if he can cover, he wouldn't be the most commercially viable stallion at Coolmore as he is a middle distance, late maturing horse whose main victories came over 1m4f.  He might likely end up as a NH stallion.  We are not talking about a Galileo here, nice horse though he is.

The comments about him being a bad example of a fragile TB were also wide of the mark as well, since he is arguably the most hardy, tough and consistent racehorse we have seen in recent times, racing year after year.  No horse has ever won the Coronation Cup three years in succession before and that takes some doing because it is on the Derby course.

I am pretty certain that the "turning point" for a decision to pts is if the horse is suffering and declining in outlook.  At the moment that stage has not been reached and there is still hope.  Why would you wish for the horse to be pts now, at this stage, after so much progress has made, just to satisfy naysayers on an internet site.  I doubt very much that Coolmore, in these circumstances, would keep a horse suffering needlessly.  I think they are doing it for the dignity of the horse, because he raced for them at the top level for so many years and they think he is worth giving a fighting chance, Coolmore might be a commercial operation but it is also full of plenty of true horse lovers with a wealth of knowledge that most people on here could only dream about.  I should imagine the lack of condition is due to a very low sugar diet to try to avoid any more laminitis.

There seems no reason why such injuries should not be healed with appropriate treatment, one day at least.  I hope for St Nicholas Abbey's sake this is the day, although I agree that his lying down a lot is not the best sign.  But I'm not a vet, so what do I know.  Its already a miracle that he is able to walk on all four legs out of the stable in hand.


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## MadJ (9 January 2014)

I've seen animals in a far worse state hidden away in back fields where they rarely get checked on.
Considering his problems he looks to be walking pretty well and his eyes are still bright. His loss of condition is possibly a blessing in disguise at this stage.


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## bonny (9 January 2014)

Mithras said:



			I do find the attitude on HHO overly in favour of pts, even when there is nothing wrong with the horse and the owner has just grown tired of it.  I do find some of the comments on here a bit ignorant - I expect St Nicholas Abbey is either insured or contractually covered against loss of use as a stallion and that this is not the primary issue - tbh although he will earn stud fees if he can cover, he wouldn't be the most commercially viable stallion at Coolmore as he is a middle distance, late maturing horse whose main victories came over 1m4f.  He might likely end up as a NH stallion.  We are not talking about a Galileo here, nice horse though he is.

The comments about him being a bad example of a fragile TB were also wide of the mark as well, since he is arguably the most hardy, tough and consistent racehorse we have seen in recent times, racing year after year.  No horse has ever won the Coronation Cup three years in succession before and that takes some doing because it is on the Derby course.

I am pretty certain that the "turning point" for a decision to pts is if the horse is suffering and declining in outlook.  At the moment that stage has not been reached and there is still hope.  Why would you wish for the horse to be pts now, at this stage, after so much progress has made, just to satisfy naysayers on an internet site.  I doubt very much that Coolmore, in these circumstances, would keep a horse suffering needlessly.  I think they are doing it for the dignity of the horse, because he raced for them at the top level for so many years and they think he is worth giving a fighting chance, Coolmore might be a commercial operation but it is also full of plenty of true horse lovers with a wealth of knowledge that most people on here could only dream about.  I should imagine the lack of condition is due to a very low sugar diet to try to avoid any more laminitis.

There seems no reason why such injuries should not be healed with appropriate treatment, one day at least.  I hope for St Nicholas Abbey's sake this is the day, although I agree that his lying down a lot is not the best sign.  But I'm not a vet, so what do I know.  Its already a miracle that he is able to walk on all four legs out of the stable in hand.
		
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Well said, I agree with every word, a lot of people posting on here seem as though they won't be happy unless the horse is dead, I see nothing wrong with keeping trying with him, he's come this far and is still young with a lot ahead of him if he does survive and I very much doubt the vets would have come this far without thinking he will make it.


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## Jules19 (14 January 2014)

RIP


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## Exploding Chestnuts (14 January 2014)

I am afraid that there will be no peace. Poor horse.


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## Jules19 (14 January 2014)

PTS this morning following colic surgery.


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## Exploding Chestnuts (14 January 2014)

Thank God someone pulled the plug.


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## Alchemy (14 January 2014)

MrsD123 said:



			Thank God someone pulled the plug.
		
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Agree it was never going to have a happy outcome poor horse, RIP


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## teapot (14 January 2014)

Hope he's at peace now


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## claracanter (14 January 2014)

RIP you beautiful boy


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## It's Me Megan (14 January 2014)

MrsD123 said:



			Thank God someone pulled the plug.
		
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Jesus christ, try a little compassion.


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## MotherOfChickens (14 January 2014)

It's Me Megan said:



			Jesus christ, try a little compassion.
		
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I think MrsD was showing some compassion for the horse. a broken pastern followed by complex surgery, surgical colic, laminitis followed by another surgical colic. any other owner on here would be condemned either as cruel or certifiable to do that to a horse.


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## fburton (14 January 2014)

It's Me Megan said:



			Jesus christ, try a little compassion.
		
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FWIW, I did not read MrsD123's comment as unfeeling - quite the reverse in fact. Whether it would be an appropriate thing to say to connections at this time is another matter of course.


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## Clare85 (14 January 2014)

Poor lad, RIP. So very sad he spent his last months suffering with all his complications. Glad to hear Coolmore have finally done right by him and let him be at peace.


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## Exploding Chestnuts (14 January 2014)

My earlier posts 154,  and 159 indicated my concerns, it seemed to me that the time would probably come when it all had to end, and that it would be an unhappy end. 
I am not lacking in compassion, but fortunately connections have better things to do than follow my posts on HHO. It's not so tough for them as it has been for the horse.


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## Brochdoll (14 January 2014)

RIP


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## Mithras (14 January 2014)

RIP St Nicholas Abbey.  So near yet so far.


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## Dobiegirl (14 January 2014)

Had he been put down  due to his leg failing or them not being able to get on top of the laminitis you would have been right with your concerns but he had a second attack of colic which was not forseeable or preventable.


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## olop (14 January 2014)

Rip so sad to hear he didn't make it after all he has been through 
Xxx


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## Fools Motto (14 January 2014)

How very sad for the horse. Sad for the connections who did try, whether for the horse or for the 'breeding rights', it doesn't matter now. The horse tried for them. Brave boy.

Hope he is at peace.


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## Mariposa (14 January 2014)

fburton said:



			FWIW, I did not read MrsD123's comment as unfeeling - quite the reverse in fact. Whether it would be an appropriate thing to say to connections at this time is another matter of course.
		
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I have to say I read MrsD123's comment earlier and had to close my browser window before I said something I'd regret.  A wonderful horse is dead. They tried to keep him alive, and in the videos posted he certainly looked full of life and promise. I am sure his carers, vets, grooms and all at the hospital are utterly gutted, as any of us would be if our loved horse hadn't made it.


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## Nicnac (14 January 2014)

Very sad news.  RIP beautiful, courageous boy.  Nice to read he'll be buried at Coolmore. Feeling very sorry for the team who worked so hard to save him.


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## Clodagh (14 January 2014)

RIP, such a shame and if they had just shot him on the gallops at the time so many weeks of pain and suffering could have been averted.


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## bonny (14 January 2014)

Clodagh said:



			RIP, such a shame and if they had just shot him on the gallops at the time so many weeks of pain and suffering could have been averted.
		
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I think that's called hindsight which sadly non of us have !


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## druid (14 January 2014)

I cannot believe how callous some of the comments are in response to Nic's death. Do the authors ever pause to think they don't know who will read their posts? Who is sat at the keyboard with a heavy heart and a sense of loss? There are many members of the racing and bloodstock world who post and read HHO. For goodness sake have a little compassion for them.


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## Clodagh (14 January 2014)

It isn't a lack of compassion for the individuals concerned but the fact that the horse, apart from as a future sperm provider, came last in this decision making.

Bonny, even if he had recovered in a few months time and fathered lots of foals I would still think what he was put through was wrong, no hindsight involved.


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## doriangrey (14 January 2014)

I know nothing about racing but have read the thread with interest and have been astounded with the knowledge on here - particularly about breeding lines.  Anyway, I'm so sorry that a beloved horse that meant so much to so many has been lost, but I have to admit that I didn't know of the horse.  I don't think that matters except that a dear friend has gone.  I do have a couple of questions and I hope not to upset anyone.  I know that only offspring that are from natural coverings are allowed to be registered/to race - why is that?  Also, would the stud have taken and frozen his semen just so his bloodlline could at least be carried on?  Not for racing obviously - but why is the rule about natural coverings so set in stone?


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## christine48 (14 January 2014)

Poor horse had been through a lot, at least he's at peace now.


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## Clodagh (14 January 2014)

It is limited to natural because they are quite enough shenanigans in the thoroughbred breeding world without sperm in tubes being used!
Seriously it is intended to stop one stallion fathering all the foals, Sadlers Wells for instance could have fathered 2 or 3000 foals a year which wouldn't have done a lot for the gene pool.
I do hear that a lot of TB stallions do understand the point of a dummy mare, although they shouldn't!
There would be no point continuing his bloodline if the offspring can't race, non racing tbs are worth nothing compared to the sort of stud fee he would have commanded - which was entirely why he was tortured for so long at the vets, not through any sense of love.


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## dizzyneddy (14 January 2014)

druid said:



			I cannot believe how callous some of the comments are in response to Nic's death. Do the authors ever pause to think they don't know who will read their posts? Who is sat at the keyboard with a heavy heart and a sense of loss? There are many members of the racing and bloodstock world who post and read HHO. For goodness sake have a little compassion for them.
		
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Totally agree - its sad for everyone connected to him particularly the lad who used to care for him whilst in training, it doesn't matter how much an animal is worth you have to give them a chance. If l had the money l'd go to the ends of the earth to help save my horse even if there was only a small glimmer of hope. Although the likes of big operations like Coolmore can spare no expense anyone in the same position would try to save their animals life whether they own just one or several horses. If St Nicholas was so bad l don't think that they would have put him through everything. Sadly injuries like he has had increase the chance of complications & as we've all read the poor horse had more than his fair share & has sadly succumbed in the end. He's now at peace & we should rejoice what a lovely top performing racehorse he was & not condemn the actions his connections choose at the end of the day he had a top medical team & doubt the vets would have kept treatment up if they thought there was no hope. RIP brave lad


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## Exploding Chestnuts (14 January 2014)

doriangrey said:



			Also, would the stud have taken and frozen his semen just so his bloodlline could at least be carried on?  Not for racing obviously - but why is the rule about natural coverings so set in stone?
		
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The T.B Racing industry is massive worldwide, and natural coverings are set in stone to ensure the support of that industry, and it will never be different. No cloning! If the T.B. s  are not Registered they  cannot race except on unlicenced tracks, but the big money is from racing on the flat, and in the breeding industry.
Before DNA became so intelligent, there is no doubt that shenanigans took place especially years ago,  but it is all highly controlled, and the actual covering has to be witnessed etc etc.
As there are already a limited number of T.B. bloodlines there will be no problem of losing a rare bloodline, and there never was any guarantee that he would sire anything out of the ordinary. 
No one will keep his sperm, it is of no value, though no doubt there will be rumours, a bit like Shergar.
Some of them may be trained to the dummy, I am not sure, because presumably they need to check motility [sperm activity].


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## doriangrey (14 January 2014)

Clodagh said:



			It is limited to natural because they are quite enough shenanigans in the thoroughbred breeding world without sperm in tubes being used!
Seriously it is intended to stop one stallion fathering all the foals, Sadlers Wells for instance could have fathered 2 or 3000 foals a year which wouldn't have done a lot for the gene pool.
I do hear that a lot of TB stallions do understand the point of a dummy mare, although they shouldn't!
There would be no point continuing his bloodline if the offspring can't race, non racing tbs are worth nothing compared to the sort of stud fee he would have commanded - which was entirely why he was tortured for so long at the vets, not through any sense of love.
		
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Thanks for replying, I do appreciate it.  Wouldn't DNA testing sort out the problems though?  Also with this lovely horse could his genes (frozen semen) have been put towards mares for eventing for instance?  I think I'm saying does this line die with him, poor fellow, or will his line carry on at all?  I do realise this off topic, sorry.


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## doriangrey (14 January 2014)

MrsD123 said:



			The T.B Racing industry is massive worldwide, and natural coverings are set in stone to ensure the support of that industry, and it will never be different. No cloning! If the T.B. s  are not Registered they  cannot race except on unlicenced tracks, but the big money is from racing on the flat, and in the breeding industry.
Before DNA became so intelligent, there is no doubt that shenanigans took place especially years ago,  but it is all highly controlled, and the actual covering has to be witnessed etc etc.
As there are already a limited number of T.B. bloodlines there will be no problem of losing a rare bloodline, and there never was any guarantee that he would sire anything out of the ordinary. 
No one will keep his sperm, it is of no value, though no doubt there will be rumours, a bit like Shergar.
		
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Just saw this, thanks.  I am truly ignorant of racing although my FIL lives across the road (literally) from the bloodstock sales in Doncaster.  I have lived in Redcar 5 minutes from the racetrack, now live 10 mins from Ballinrobe races and OH works in Galway, so minutes from the Galway races.  I have never yet been to the races in all of my 50 years!  I do own a thoroughbred though, totally off topic but just reading this thread has opened my eyes to such a knowledge of bloodlines/history.


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## Alec Swan (14 January 2014)

There you are;  "Told you so"! 

Alec.


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## gadetra (14 January 2014)

Sorry to hear the horse is dead but not surprised. Should have been done a long time ago.

He is at peace now R.I.P.


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## Clodagh (15 January 2014)

doriangrey said:



			Thanks for replying, I do appreciate it.  Wouldn't DNA testing sort out the problems though?  Also with this lovely horse could his genes (frozen semen) have been put towards mares for eventing for instance?  I think I'm saying does this line die with him, poor fellow, or will his line carry on at all?  I do realise this off topic, sorry.
		
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He is closely related to a lot of other top stallions so his line will be OK.  Yes, DNA testing is now used to prove parentage so you safely agree with your horses alleged breeding nowadays!


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## Koen (15 January 2014)

MrsD123 said:



			The T.B Racing industry is massive worldwide, and natural coverings are set in stone to ensure the support of that industry, and it will never be different.
		
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I've always wondered what the point was exactly. Surely if a horse can run and beat other horses it's a race horse no matter what it's breeding.

I understand if you are covering your mare you want to make sure its what you are getting, DNA testing can makes this worry redundant but why the obsession with registering and breeding within a closed stud book?

Pedigree horses exposed?

BTW I hold no truck with anyone who backs a horse and races it as a two year old. Why in God's name is this practise not outlawed, races for two year olds ended?

These sorry tragedies and dramas seems to be largely unquestioned by the establishment, and only noticed when a well known horse is involved.

TB's are weaker, lighter boned with a narrower gene pools than most breeds bred in such numbers today and yet are subjected to incredible stresses at ridiculously young ages well before breeds that are far more robust.  

The racing industry to me is pure kakha and needs to clean up its act.


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## Alec Swan (15 January 2014)

Koen,  there are those on here better qualified than I to offer opposing views to every one of your paragraphs above!

The only thing that I would say is that the current genre of racing the Thoroughbred is such that success and gambling pay scant regard to the well being of the horse,  as a breed.  That the very large part of those who are directly involved in the care and maintenance of their charges might agree with certain parts of your post,  these people will very soon be replaced by others,  should they refuse to provide the animals which are needed for the industry.

Your observations regarding the racing of 2 yos?  I wouldn't want a youngster of mine raced at that age,  but others do,  the horses are their property,  and if the chose to shoot the horse before it's 6 years old,  as often happens,  then that's their choice.

Your very last sentence?  You'll be a long time waiting for that to happen.

Alec.


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## Exploding Chestnuts (15 January 2014)

Koen said:



			I've always wondered what the point was exactly. Surely if a horse can run and beat other horses it's a race horse no matter what it's breeding.
		
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OK, not going to pick up on any points other than this one .......... 
Yes you can race any horse at unlicenced tracks, in the UK this racing is known as flapping, and it could be compared to Point to  Points without the fences. And first prize is about £200!
I used to train two flapping horses, they were both T.B. , one was unregistered, by Green Desert, he was never put in to training with a Licenced Trainer because he was not the greatest looker [conformation], however he was fast enough to win at a mile in modest company, and was always sound. He must have cost his owner breeder about £5,000 and we picked him up for about £650.
The second was a mare with top breeding and a poor record in racing, she had eventually been banned for bad behaviour on the racecourse, so we got her for a reasonable price [£700], she had originally been sold at Tattersalls for £140,000 guineas as an unraced two year old! She was a really good long distance horse, just had had a difficult life, unfortunately the owner/s ran out of patience.
Now we did not do anything illegal, but we were not licensed trainers, no proper facilities, no medical records etc, but those horse could never be raced on licensed tracks under Jockey Club rules because they had not been subject to scrutiny throughout their career, and had raced on unlicenced tracks. That is just one way the Racing Industry works to try to  "keep its act clean" and sustain the structure of the industry.
And they will have to look again at this "scrutiny" business , as recently some horses have been getting steroids when they have been sent out of a licenced yard to a re-hab yard. Performance enhancing drugs are not allowed in UK racing.


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## Mithras (15 January 2014)

Koen said:



			TB's are weaker, lighter boned with a narrower gene pools than most breeds bred in such numbers today and yet are subjected to incredible stresses at ridiculously young ages well before breeds that are far more robust.
		
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That flies in the face of basic biology.  In human runners, its invariably essential to place enough stress on the developing athlete's body from about the age 9 onwards, so that the correct dendritic connections to enable the excitable nerve impulse potential are maximised, and to strengthen bones and tendons to enable training to higher levels of performance in adulthood.  British coaches now lament the dearth of young male athletes coming to them in particular, because at age 13 or 14 it is simply too late to make up the deficit caused by being ferried about everywhere by car and spending free time indoors with computer games.  And for any athletic activity, any biological creature needs the genetic advantage of being fast but strong - do you seriously think that heavier build means greater ability to propel forwards without injury at speed beyond the very shortest sprint distances?  Do you think that Paula Radcliffe would have been a more successful athlete had she been heavier of build and started training in her mid twenties instead of aged 8?

Ah you will say, but humans can speak out if they feel pain from an injury.  That is why racehorses are regularly x rayed and scanned and monitored by expert stable staff who have genuine knowledge in practice.  But injuries happen in mammals - some of the worst injuries I've heard of recently happened to horses turned out in the field.  What I would be concerned about is the mass stud farms on the Continent producing warmbloods dressage horses and to a lesser extent showjumpers, to be marketable at 3, 4 and 5 years of age by pushing them into advanced movement too early and by not giving them enough turnout to stimulate sufficient bone growth to cope with it.

This is basic A level biology - it is nothing new and a lot of it should be general knowledge in a reasonably well educated person.  If you are Dutch or Belgian, as your username suggests, then you will almost certainly have been educated to know this stuff, and I suggest you revisit your studies.

Very small numbers of TB racehorses are trained seriously as two year olds, and it is mainly the ones who are bred to mature fast and race at sprint and mile distances.  ie those which show a natural genetic precocity.  There are plenty of examples of two years olds who have raced at two who have gone on to have full working lives.  Admittedly I've only worked at top racing yards (during the university holidays when I was a student) but I never saw any of the examples of ignorant cruelty that you tend to see on livery yards full of happy hackers.  Such as not turning horses out til midday and leaving them without hay until then because the owner can't be bothered to get out of bed.  Or keeping horses with Cushing alive even though they suffer from laminitis.  Or injecting riding club level horses with steroids because the insurance will pay for a certain number and the owner wants to ride an unsound horse.  I know Aidan O'Brian is a vet and I know they were all very fond of St Nicholas Abbey, whereas the market for stallions is really in early maturing shorter distance horses.  But they have all done things with their lives which encompass real achievements, as opposed to backbiting on internet sites.

Some of the uninformed opinions on this thread make you embarrassed to post on here. St Nicholas Abbey so very nearly made it, in fact arguably he did make it, as he was able to walk out of his stable on the previously fractured leg.  If you never have to deal with one of your horses getting a serious colic, then you will be a lucky person.  To suggest that a horse should be pts simply because a course of treatment might not succeed to me is a bit of an odd reaction; I honestly wonder about some of the multitude of posts about pts horses on HHO.  Is it some kind of God complex at play?  Or Munchausen's by proxy?  ie because you have the power to kill an animal, you should demonstrate that power?


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## Koen (16 January 2014)

Mithras I am fully aware of the biology of the developing horse having studied horse management, breeding, appraisal and performance testing in the Netherlands under the auspices of the KWPN. Not a closed studbook.

Im afraid none of what you say makes sense at all in any other equestrian industry other than perhaps the racing one. 

That's to say no one else tries to make sorry excuses based on commonly understood developmental biology, in as far as you are speaking for the racing industry here. It seems to me where any science in the TB racing industry is geared to the maximisation of the animal in terms of financial gain and soonest, in the riding/sport horse industry the science is geared to the welfare and soundness of a long lived performance animal.

I can think of instances where this is abused in for instance warm-blood sport horse production too but it's not generally the accepted method. For example where young horses are prepared for auction by being asked far too much at far too early an age. In most cases these horses on purchase have to then have their training suitably delayed by going back a few years to address any possible future damage if not too late. The warm-blood does make a suitable comparison, though. It too is becoming more and more of an industry.

It's interesting to note only in the racing industry is there talk of "early maturing" TBs. No one else believes this. In fact TB's are considered anything but. Where precocity is found in warm bloods rather extreme caution is called for for these horses in fact present more ability (liability) than their developing frames can tolerate and are therefore more at risk of damage, not suitable to be asked more than other horses of the same age. Why is this not so in the TB industry? Why are these so called "early maturing" ones raced at two and on until they break? The "lucky"  negligible tiny percentage of any retired after a few short years to be used at stud. If greedy enough even these are raced into the ground as perhaps is the case with the unfortunate St Nicholas Abbey.

TBs are racing generally by the time they are three, more than full impact on all their joints. Serious exercise comes later much later for warm-bloods or sport horse "industry", years later. Three is when they are only backed if they are ready. The approach is one of extreme caution and progressive development, not ridden until they break from the minute they're backed. It's not even the weight they are or aren't carrying in race horses its the repeated more than maximum exertion required backed up by a very sad but happily condoned use of the whip. Racing two year olds is simply criminal and the amount of money offered as an incentive to do so is similarly so.

Using Warm bloods again as an example, they are today almost TBs, hot bloods in everything but name. You do have greater variety in genetics but for the modern sport horse there is a heavy reliance on hot bloods, still coming in thick and strong. "Warm-bloods" could be considered a healthier reinvention of the TB but this is to say they generally can be considered many of them to mature at around about the same rate as TBs do and more and more so too. More and more care is thus needed in their development.


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## Mithras (16 January 2014)

Koen said:



			Mithras I am fully aware of the biology of the developing horse having studied horse management, breeding, appraisal and performance testing in the Netherlands under the auspices of the KWPN. Not a closed studbook.

Im afraid none of what you say makes sense at all in any other equestrian industry other than perhaps the racing one.
		
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That would be because we are talking about racing, and racehorses, in this thread.



Koen said:



			That's to say no one else tries to make sorry excuses based on commonly understood developmental biology, in as far as you are speaking for the racing industry here. It seems to me where any science in the TB racing industry is geared to the maximisation of the animal in terms of financial gain and soonest, in the riding/sport horse industry the science is geared to the welfare and soundness of a long lived performance animal.
		
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You must have "studied under the auspices" of another KWPN than most people on here use the acronym to refer to it.



Koen said:



			I can think of instances where this is abused in for instance warm-blood sport horse production too but it's not generally the accepted method. For example where young horses are prepared for auction by being asked far too much at far too early an age. In most cases these horses on purchase have to then have their training suitably delayed by going back a few years to address any possible future damage if not too late. The warm-blood does make a suitable comparison, though. It too is becoming more and more of an industry.

It's interesting to note only in the racing industry is there talk of "early maturing" TBs. No one else believes this. In fact TB's are considered anything but. Where precocity is found in warm bloods rather extreme caution is called for for these horses in fact present more ability (liability) than their developing frames can tolerate and are therefore more at risk of damage, not suitable to be asked more than other horses of the same age. Why is this not so in the TB industry? Why are these so called "early maturing" ones raced at two and on until they break? The "lucky"  negligible tiny percentage of any retired after a few short years to be used at stud. If greedy enough even these are raced into the ground as perhaps is the case with the unfortunate St Nicholas Abbey.

TBs are racing generally by the time they are three, more than full impact on all their joints. Serious exercise comes later much later for warm-bloods or sport horse "industry", years later. Three is when they are only backed if they are ready. The approach is one of extreme caution and progressive development, not ridden until they break from the minute they're backed. It's not even the weight they are or aren't carrying in race horses its the repeated more than maximum exertion required backed up by a very sad but happily condoned use of the whip. Racing two year olds is simply criminal and the amount of money offered as an incentive to do so is similarly so.

Using Warm bloods again as an example, they are today almost TBs, hot bloods in everything but name. You do have greater variety in genetics but for the modern sport horse there is a heavy reliance on hot bloods, still coming in thick and strong. "Warm-bloods" could be considered a healthier reinvention of the TB but this is to say they generally can be considered many of them to mature at around about the same rate as TBs do and more and more so too. More and more care is thus needed in their development.
		
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Tbh I think you should go back to the equine industry and get a bit more experience, or actually study a properly recognised qualification (combined with some experience) because your statements above are full of inaccuracies. Its not my job to point out where, or to educate you for free.  And it would take too long.

Aidan O Brian, for example, is not only a top racehorse trainer, but a qualified vet.  That means years of university level study and then years of experience training horses at the top level.  Are you seriously suggesting that you, who from what you say, has little competition riding experience and no proper qualifications, know better than him? 

You might wish to gain a little humility, if you find that possible.  Much of the above reads like a slightly poor effort a secondary school pupil might put into an essay.  I'm trying to think of an equivalent word in Dutch for cringeworthy, but I do think ontwetendheid is the most apt I can come up with.

And in case you have forgotten, this thread isn't about promoting your own brand of personal interest, but about a much loved and valued racehorse, who has recently lost his fight to recover from injury to colic.


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## Caledonia (16 January 2014)

Very good posts, Mithras. Absolutely agree with you.


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## Koen (17 January 2014)

Not worth a response. No wonder the racing industry is in the doldrums it is. About as useful or modern as a phone box.


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## Caledonia (17 January 2014)

Koen said:



			Not worth a response. No wonder the racing industry is in the doldrums it is. About as useful or modern as a phone box.
		
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Racing is hardly 'in the doldrums'. 

I'd say that refers more to where your spurious posts have landed.


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## Alec Swan (17 January 2014)

Koen said:



			Not worth a response. No wonder the racing industry is in the doldrums it is. About as useful or modern as a phone box.
		
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So why respond?  Tell me now,  where do you stand on the question of Ragwort?

Alec.


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## Koen (17 January 2014)

Alec Swan said:



			So why respond?  Tell me now,  where do you stand on the question of Ragwort?

Alec.
		
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I would hardly call that much of a response. Good question though.

Just in case this isn't rhetorical amusement, you never can tell, "stinking willie" as our American cousins call it or Jacobaea vulgaris just doesn't grow in our area at all.


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## fburton (17 January 2014)

Mithras said:



			That flies in the face of basic biology.  In human runners, its invariably essential to place enough stress on the developing athlete's body from about the age 9 onwards, so that the correct dendritic connections to enable the excitable nerve impulse potential are maximised,
		
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I am a bit puzzled by this statement. Do you have a reference to hand to explain what you mean? No worries if not.


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## amandap (17 January 2014)

Mithras said:



			That flies in the face of basic biology.  In human runners, its invariably essential to place enough stress on the developing athlete's body from about the age 9 onwards, so that the correct dendritic connections to enable the excitable nerve impulse potential are maximised, and to strengthen bones and tendons to enable training to higher levels of performance in adulthood.
		
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Can comparisons be made here though? As someone who knows little about the science I see some major differences. Children don't have their non training movement restricted (stabling) nor do they carry weights on their backs or have their movement influenced directly by weight and other forces from bit, reins, rider etc.


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## Mithras (17 January 2014)

fburton said:



			I am a bit puzzled by this statement. Do you have a reference to hand to explain what you mean? No worries if not.
		
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tbh I can't be bothered looking up a reference for you.  Its the development of basic motor skills linking your fine motor memory in the brain to the excitable nerve impulses which trigger muscle contraction.  I would have thought this was pretty much general knowledge - how do you think your brain tells your body to move?  If you don't develop these connections young enough, you are unlikely ever to do so to the extent to enable you to be competitive in sport - not always, there are extremely talented exceptions, but that's why its generally though best to develop some sporting experience at a young age.

Amandap above - I would have thought comparison in all weight bearing mammals was valid.  Haven't there been studies conducted which have been oft quoted on here in the past showing that there was no greater incidence of bone injury to young started TB racehorses than in other horses?


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## fburton (17 January 2014)

Mithras said:



			tbh I can't be bothered looking up a reference for you.  Its the development of basic motor skills linking your fine motor memory in the brain to the excitable nerve impulses which trigger muscle contraction.  I would have thought this was pretty much general knowledge - how do you think your brain tells your body to move?  If you don't develop these connections young enough, you are unlikely ever to do so to the extent to enable you to be competitive in sport - not always, there are extremely talented exceptions, but that's why its generally though best to develop some sporting experience at a young age.
		
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To be clear, it was your reference to _stress_ that puzzled me the most. It is clear to me why movement would be necessary to establish normal neural connections, but not why additional or higher than normal levels of stress was required.


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## amandap (17 January 2014)

Mithras said:



			Amandap above - I would have thought comparison in all weight bearing mammals was valid.  Haven't there been studies conducted which have been oft quoted on here in the past showing that there was no greater incidence of bone injury to young started TB racehorses than in other horses?
		
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Those studies only compare some bones (?cannon etc.) I think.  It is well studied that bone will demineralize with no or reduced weight bearing and exercize but how many studies have been done on the effects of unstable extra weight and directive forces added on the whole body?  I am fascinated to think there have been studies on nerve paths and ligaments/tendons.

Sadly I don't know nearly enough but my gut tells me that any animal moving in an independent, self directed manner has to be subject to different forces than one influenced by and compensating for a passenger.


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## Mithras (17 January 2014)

fburton said:



			To be clear, it was your reference to _stress_ that puzzled me the most. It is clear to me why movement would be necessary to establish normal neural connections, but not why additional or higher than normal levels of stress was required.
		
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Stress as in terms of causing the burden of movement.  Its generally referred to as putting the body under stress.  

What do you mean by "normal neural connections"?  Because obviously that differs.  What was once "normal" before we reached the present situation of most children being driven to school by car and children playing outside less is not "normal" today.  

What is your point in terms of the death of St Nicholas Abbey?


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## amandap (17 January 2014)

I was just talking around the subject.

Activities that entail periods of high stress points on the body are bound to produce some catastrophic fractures and injuries no matter how good the science and practice sadly.


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## Mithras (17 January 2014)

amandap said:



			Those studies only compare some bones (?cannon etc.) I think.  It is well studied that bone will demineralize with no or reduced weight bearing and exercize but how many studies have been done on the effects of unstable extra weight and directive forces added on the whole body?  I am fascinated to think there have been studies on nerve paths and ligaments/tendons.

Sadly I don't know nearly enough but my gut tells me that any animal moving in an independent, self directed manner has to be subject to different forces than one influenced by and compensating for a passenger.
		
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I would be surprised if there were not some studies into that somewhere.  Finding them might be a different matter!

I wonder whether correct schooling and a rider helping a horse balance can actually create less risk.  Especially if the rider is very light but effective and the schooling built up incrementally.  Plenty of horses injure themselves in the field after all.


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## Mariposa (17 January 2014)

Mithras said:



			St Nicholas Abbey so very nearly made it, in fact arguably he did make it, as he was able to walk out of his stable on the previously fractured leg.  If you never have to deal with one of your horses getting a serious colic, then you will be a lucky person.  To suggest that a horse should be pts simply because a course of treatment might not succeed to me is a bit of an odd reaction; I honestly wonder about some of the multitude of posts about pts horses on HHO.  Is it some kind of God complex at play?  Or Munchausen's by proxy?  ie because you have the power to kill an animal, you should demonstrate that power?
		
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Brilliantly put. 

People seem to get so hung up on the fact St Nicholas Abbey was valuable, does that mean the vets/his grooms/owners are automatically in the wrong for trying to save him? They could afford it, clearly the surgeons felt they could save him - and had it not been for colic he would have made it through. It's sheer bad luck, a tragedy, that he got colic - but it happens - to horses of all values and breeds.


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## Echo Bravo (17 January 2014)

The horse is dead and out of pain, but hopefully some good has come out of this for the equines of this world, hopefully the vets have learnt a lot from his situation and not just un named horse that went through the same problem for the sake of science and will have helped many horses/ponies in the future.


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## Honeylight (18 January 2014)

I wish the outcome had been better, it must be frustrating as well as very sad for those working to save him, when the laminitis appeared to be receding. It was a very bad injury to start with & all the complications that followed, did people see the X Ray after pinning? It looked like a Christmas tree. I imagine this just wasn't any old colic but had been brought on by the lack of movement & trauma. A real pity that he was injured in the first place.
As to the financial side of things, someone on here made an interesting point about his stud value. Coolmore do seem to be marketing stallions with his profile for the National Hunt sphere. There are plenty of sons of Montjeu at stud & he wasn't from an especially sparkling female line. Still he was a tough talented horse & a loss to breeding even if it was to eventually be of NH horses.


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## Koen (19 January 2014)

Echo Bravo said:



			The horse is dead and out of pain, but hopefully some good has come out of this for the equines of this world, hopefully the vets have learnt a lot from his situation and not just un named horse that went through the same problem for the sake of science
		
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....and the racing industry, and all the unamed horses destroyed for the sake of the gaming industry...a public awarness at the very least?



Echo Bravo said:



			.........and will have helped many horses/ponies in the future.
		
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Yes


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## Exploding Chestnuts (19 January 2014)

Koen said:



			....and the racing industry, and all the unamed horses destroyed for the sake of the gaming industry...a public awarness at the very least?



Yes
		
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All the horses have names and they are not destroyed for the sake of the gaming industry, you seem determined to use any excuse to post on here, this is not about you.


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## tristar (21 January 2014)

in an article in this weeks irish field trainer of st nicholas abbey aiden o'brien said' he was always special, he was exceptional really' and his jockey joseph o'brien who rode him to 4 group one wins said 'he was a horse i'll not forget, his win in dubai was poss his best performance but from my point of eiw  winning on him at the breeders cup was ery special'  ' keyboard playing up)


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