# Promotion of Overbending in the Young Horse



## Atamekan (7 January 2014)

The picture on www.team-teke.co.uk/miscellaneous.html has twice accompanied an article on training the young horse appearing in a nationally circulated magazine. The horse is nearly 30 degrees overbent, the consequent shortening of stride clear in the picture. Does this accurately present the current fashion for starting young horses, and if so is it correct?


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## TarrSteps (7 January 2014)

I think this is a complicated and emotive subject these days. As such, you're going to get a lot of "opinions" but not always a lot of factual, objected study or even experience. You have only to look on this forum - lots of vitriol about rolkur etc, but then lots of photos of horses behind the vertical/hand. It's easy to say, not always so easy to put ones opinions into practice. 

There are reasons a horse may be ridden in different positions - the goal of training is adjustability, after all - at differnt times and for different reasons. It's impossible to judge context from a photo.

I'm a fan of riding horses "up and out" but on the hand. But I would be lying if I said I'd never ridden a horse lower or rounder for a specific purpose.


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## Cortez (7 January 2014)

It's not "correct", but you see it an awful lot.


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## Roody2 (7 January 2014)

How can you say shortening of the stride is clear in the picture?? There is nothing to compare it to.


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## TarrSteps (7 January 2014)

It's a reference to where the hind foot is landing, well short if where the front took off, and the relative distribution of weight between front and hind legs. The horse isn't 'tracking up' and is on the forehand. Although I agree it's difficult to judge the whole from one moment in time.


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## oldie48 (7 January 2014)

Nice horse, pity they chose this picture as it doesn't do the horse justice, he looks quite tight in his neck. If it's to demonstrate their methods of training a young horse, well, I'd be put off, as I'd also like to see the horse stretching forward into the contact rather than well behind the vertical.


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## siennamum (7 January 2014)

Also looks to have enlarged glands which I hate to see. Common outline I would say, which is considered fine so much of the time.


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## cptrayes (7 January 2014)

siennamum said:



			Also looks to have enlarged glands which I hate to see. Common outline I would say, which is considered fine so much of the time.
		
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And will score far better in a prelim test than the equivalent angle of the head in the other direction, which is one reason why people do it 

Definitely a modern phenomenon. Read Philippe Karl if you hate it.


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## _GG_ (7 January 2014)

I think the author is erroneous in the description of the horses action TBH. It says that the shortness of the stride can be seen by the hind foot hitting the ground 25cm short of tracking up. I don't see this. I see a nearside hind that is still firmly on the ground and has therefore not completed it's propulsion forward and an offside hind that is not yet ready to hit the ground. When the hoof hits the ground, the sole is parallel to the ground, which is not the case in this picture at all. Looking at this I would actually say that this hose will easily track up.

I'm not saying it's a pretty picture, there is plenty not to like, but I do wish horses and riders would stop being judged on a picture or judged to harshly when overbending. 

When you look at almost any picture of any young or green horse, you are going to see things that are not appealing. Horses aren't born fully trained and relaxed in all of their work. Of course they will hold tension, especially when learning new things as they are on a learning curve and part of that is learning to relax. Relaxation isn't automatically just there. 

I am of the school of allowing them to be more "out" in the frame because I care little for where a horses head is when they are young, but I won't judge a person when I see a young horse overbent because I know that it is very natural for young horse to do this as they figure out how to move and balance and take a contact. Of course some, in fact many riders ask for it, but not all do, so I think it's harsh to judge on a photo.


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## cptrayes (7 January 2014)

I think the point is that this picture was being used as an example, and presumably a good one, in more than one serious article about horse training?


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## Charliepony (7 January 2014)

cptrayes said:



			And will score far better in a prelim test than the equivalent angle of the head in the other direction, which is one reason why people do it 

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This is so so true!!! And where it all stems from tbh.


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## cptrayes (7 January 2014)

Charliepony said:



			And where it all stems from tbh.
		
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 I agree with you.


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## _GG_ (7 January 2014)

cptrayes said:



			I agree with you.
		
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I agree too. 

I made the points I made because I could...and so will all the people (not me) that DO train young horses with this kind of frame in mind. 

We have been reading articles like this for such a long time now and nothing is changing. 

Instead, I would like to see articles that are scrutinising judging. Riders and trainers will continue to focus on the front, not the back of the horse for as long as judges reward this way of going. 

At the very top level, thanks in great part to the likes of Valegro, we are beginning to see the correctness rewarded with wins and the better scores. This will take a long time to filter down through the levels however unless more attention is put on it.


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## webble (7 January 2014)

I see a lot of horses in for sale ads overbent these days


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## spookypony (7 January 2014)

cptrayes said:



			And will score far better in a prelim test than the equivalent angle of the head in the other direction, which is one reason why people do it 

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Why is that the case, though? Are there any judges on here that could comment? I'm going to assume here that the average judge isn't thick, and knows full well what a prelim outline should look like, and how to tell if a horse is on its forehand with its nose tucked in.

I think I've noticed when writing that a test with accurate transitions and constricted, cautious movements seems to get rewarded higher than a test with truer movements but less accurate transitions. Is this a feature of the way marks are allotted to the various components?


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## shortstuff99 (7 January 2014)

I think the horse in this picture is not actually young though? I read the article and this I believe is a 7/8 year old they used instead of a young horse and this section (if I remember correctly) was about stretching? I also don't get why being infront of the vertical is seen as less 'bad' then behind when surely they are equally as bad for muscle development etc?


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## cptrayes (7 January 2014)

shortstuff99 said:



			I think the horse in this picture is not actually young though? I read the article and this I believe is a 7/8 year old they used instead of a young horse and this section (if I remember correctly) was about stretching? I also don't get why being infront of the vertical is seen as less 'bad' then behind when surely they are equally as bad for muscle development etc?
		
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Being in front of the verticle is the natural placement of the head for an inexperienced horse.


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## nikkimariet (7 January 2014)

cptrayes said:



			Being in front of the verticle is the natural placement of the head for an inexperienced horse.
		
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But equally so is BTV???


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## Cortez (7 January 2014)

I have yet to see any young/untrained horse place itself BTV...........(I stress the "itself")


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## criso (7 January 2014)

spookypony said:



			Why is that the case, though? Are there any judges on here that could comment? I'm going to assume here that the average judge isn't thick, and knows full well what a prelim outline should look like, and how to tell if a horse is on its forehand with its nose tucked in.

I think I've noticed when writing that a test with accurate transitions and constricted, cautious movements seems to get rewarded higher than a test with truer movements but less accurate transitions. Is this a feature of the way marks are allotted to the various components?
		
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Agree would be interesting to hear a judges point of view. 

I remember taking my horse to do a walk trot intro just to see how he would behave on his first outing at a competition.

The venue runs a lot of affiliated competitions and has the reputation of running the unaffiliated to similar standards.

Comments and marked down all they way through for being in front of the vertical, not on the bit etc.  In the comments judge liked paces but wanted to see him in an outline.


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## shortstuff99 (7 January 2014)

cptrayes said:



			Being in front of the verticle is the natural placement of the head for an inexperienced horse.
		
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Doesn't necessarily mean that it is better for the horse though, for carrying humans I mean. I'm sure if it lived his/her life in the wild that placement would be fine but add a human to the mix and surely having weak back muscles causes damage.


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## nikkimariet (7 January 2014)

Cortez said:



			I have yet to see any young/untrained horse place itself BTV...........(I stress the "itself")
		
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Umm let me think... When horses don't have the strength or perhaps confidence to step up into the contact at all times?


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## cptrayes (7 January 2014)

nikkimariet said:



			But equally so is BTV???
		
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I don't believe so. I believe they only do that consistently when the rider places them there, and that the problem with that is that it also places them onto the forehand. Philippe Karl explains it much better than me.


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## Cortez (7 January 2014)

nikkimariet said:



			Umm let me think... When horses don't have the strength or perhaps confidence to step up into the contact at all times?
		
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But I would then be thinking that it's the rider/contact that is incorrect, not the horse - sorry, just basically said the same thing as CPT.


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## Kelpie (7 January 2014)

cptrayes said:



			And will score far better in a prelim test than the equivalent angle of the head in the other direction, which is one reason why people do it 

Definitely a modern phenomenon. Read Philippe Karl if you hate it.
		
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Another vote here to go look at the work of Philippe Karl  ...... who, by the way, is now in the final stage of doing his first teacher training course in the UK and who will be starting a new teacher training course come September  ....... anyone wanting to study his work more closely can sign up to audit the teacher training course - I've been auditing the one that's about to finish and it's been very interesting (albeit his distaste of a lot of modern day dressage is very clear!!)


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## nikkimariet (7 January 2014)

cptrayes said:



			I don't believe so. I believe they only do that consistently when the rider places them there, and that the problem with that is that it also places them onto the forehand. Philippe Karl explains it much better than me.
		
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Cortez said:



			But I would then be thinking that it's the rider/contact that is incorrect, not the horse - sorry, just basically said the same thing as CPT.
		
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Agree to disagree!!!


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## Scarlett (7 January 2014)

shortstuff99 said:



			Doesn't necessarily mean that it is better for the horse though, for carrying humans I mean. I'm sure if it lived his/her life in the wild that placement would be fine but add a human to the mix and surely having weak back muscles causes damage.
		
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Does this mean you assume that a horse in front of the verticle is weak because it isn't using itself correctly? A horse can be in 'an outline' and still not be using it's back, especially if it's btv, just as a horse can be in front of the verticle and be working correctly over it's back. The point is that it shouldnt just be about the front end looking pretty but the horses movement as a whole...


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## only_me (8 January 2014)

A horse btv can be a avoiding contact just as much as a horse which is infront of vertical - i thought a lot of teaching a young horse is to accept the contact.

In front of vertical is only acceptable if working forwards and to the contact.
Strong hands can have either btv or in front depending on horse. And who knows how valegro was trained as a young horse? 

Eg. Billy will, depending on his mood can resist contact by poking his nose or can equally play with the bit/roll his tounge and come behind the bit. Only now am i able to do a correct give and retake in trot and canter with him staying through. But he still offers moments of resistance depending on work, which i imagine all horses do. Its not always a case of only correct training - it is the correct training appropiate to what the horse offers at that moment in time!

As for the horse in the picture, i thought it looks like they are flexing horse to the inside which can distort the overall image we get. Above vertical/behind vertical is relative to each horse really! And as for a young horse on the forehand, they are still growing and finding their balance. I was always taught prelim tends to be downhill, novice is horizontal (neither down nor up) and elementary was a very small increase to uphill with the "uphillness" increased as the horse progresses up the levels!


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## shortstuff99 (8 January 2014)

Scarlett said:



			Does this mean you assume that a horse in front of the verticle is weak because it isn't using itself correctly? A horse can be in 'an outline' and still not be using it's back, especially if it's btv, just as a horse can be in front of the verticle and be working correctly over it's back. The point is that it shouldnt just be about the front end looking pretty but the horses movement as a whole...
		
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No, but its the fact quite a few people let there horses work willy nilly and say 'its okay as he is in front of the vertical which is natural'. And that to me is just as bad as working them incorrectly BTV. If back muscles are being used correctly then that is a different story.


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## TarrSteps (8 January 2014)

shortstuff99 said:



			No, but its the fact quite a few people let there horses work willy nilly and say 'its okay as he is in front of the vertical which is natural'. And that to me is just as bad as working them incorrectly BTV. If back muscles are being used correctly then that is a different story.
		
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It's a heck of a lot easier to fix though.  And these days, I'd say you have a lot more people pulling horses' noses in than letting them out. 

As Scarlett pointed out though, we are having two conversations, one about head position and another about quality of contact. A horse can be temporarily btv or a bit against the hand and still be working, over all, towards correctness. Equally, a horse can be 'in the right position' and be all kinds of wrong. I agree, it's probably not possible to properly gymnasticize a horse without riding it into a yielding contact, riding from leg to hand. But I've seen more people and horses get into trouble from being behind than in front. 

One key point is control. If you can't ride the horse up and out on the contact at any point, then there is at least the beginning of a problem that needs to be addressed.


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## meardsall_millie (8 January 2014)

criso said:



			Comments and marked down all they way through for being in front of the vertical, not on the bit etc.  In the comments judge liked paces but wanted to see him in an outline.
		
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But a judge marks according to a standard - the 'ideal' or 'perfect' way of going for that level of test.  They don't take into account the age of the horse (they don't know!), so although to you, your horse may have had a perfectly acceptable way of going for its age and level of training, according to judging standards it did not.


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## BeckyD (8 January 2014)

I attended a BD lecture demo last year by David Hunt (I think) and the horse was very BTV - deep and round - and he implied that's how he thinks they should be.  It was interesting to hear his view point on that as it seemed to me not in line with current thinking.  The horse looked extremely relaxed and swingy.


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## Ferdinase514 (8 January 2014)

The point David Hunt was making was that deep and round is not bad, but part of training tools. Should be able to put horse in lots of differing outlines according to what you are training - that horse started like that in the session for suppleness / submission then was brought up


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## criso (8 January 2014)

meardsall_millie said:



			But a judge marks according to a standard - the 'ideal' or 'perfect' way of going for that level of test.  They don't take into account the age of the horse (they don't know!), so although to you, your horse may have had a perfectly acceptable way of going for its age and level of training, according to judging standards it did not.
		
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I did say it was an intro walk trot test, that's the most basic entry level.


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## cptrayes (8 January 2014)

nikkimariet said:



			Agree to disagree!!!
		
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I do agree to disagree, because clearly it works from your own great sesults.

But I think the discussion is very interesting, because it is, as far as I am aware, a complete departure from classical principles. And also because of the changes which have been made in the scoring of movements at high levels, which Karl thinks are as a result. For anyone who wants to see what he means, the book 'Twisted truths of modern dressage' is a great read.


Can people continuing the discussion please note that the OP was not commenting on the horse in the picture being overbent at that moment in time, she was commenting on the picture being used inmore than one article as an example of good training.


PS my comments are made by someone with no track record of success in affiliated dressage.


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## meardsall_millie (8 January 2014)

criso said:



			I did say it was an intro walk trot test, that's the most basic entry level.
		
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But even at the most basic level the horse should work forwards into a contact. You stated that yours did not in this test.


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## criso (8 January 2014)

meardsall_millie said:



			But even at the most basic level the horse should work forwards into a contact. You stated that yours did not in this test.
		
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I didn't say he was not working forwards into a contact, he was but with his head above the vertical.  He was not in an outline with his nose on the vertical and that is what the judges were hoping to see even at entry level.

As said they don't seem to mark down an error in the opposite direction. A friend whose horse tends to go overbent and tucks in behind the bit as an evasion didn't get a comment for this.

And if judges mark  up for outline even when the horse is not working properly then you can't blame people for putting the same emphasis on their training.


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## cptrayes (8 January 2014)

criso said:



			I didn't say he was not working forwards into a contact, he was but with his head above the vertical.  He was not in an outline with his nose on the vertical and that is what the judges were hoping to see even at entry level.

As said they don't seem to mark down an error in the opposite direction. A friend whose horse tends to go overbent and tucks in behind the bit as an evasion didn't get a comment for this.

And if judges mark  up for outline even when the horse is not working properly then you can't blame people for putting the same emphasis on their training.
		
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This.

I see it all the time. An error of head carriage is usually only penalised in one direction - before the verticle.

In desperation on two not naturally talented horses, I have ridden them overbent through a test. The first was unaffiliated prelim in front of an affiliated judge. He won by a mile in a class of thirty.

The second was affiliated novice eventing, where to my recollection he scored 71%, a mark I had never got near with that horse before.

I also question whether in front of the verticle should be marked as an error at all in prelim  and below. I understand why we do it. I've been doing it extensively on my KS rehab precisely because it loosens his back right off.


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## nikkimariet (8 January 2014)

Ferdinase514 said:



			The point David Hunt was making was that deep and round is not bad, but part of training tools. Should be able to put horse in lots of differing outlines according to what you are training - that horse started like that in the session for suppleness / submission then was brought up 

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cptrayes said:



			I do agree to disagree, because clearly it works from your own great sesults.
		
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Yep - Fig remains soft and supple in the contact regardless of where I place the poll, nose or neck. It is not always perfect (nothing ever is), but his consistent and elastic contact is always positively commented on by judges


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (8 January 2014)

criso said:



			I did say it was an intro walk trot test, that's the most basic entry level.
		
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just to pick up on this point.

its a test of the most basic movements, and there is still and ideal standard against which it is judged.

if the horse is generally on the aids, accepting the aids, and supple, it will come together in a half decent outline. Perhaps the judge could have worded it better but i would hazard a guess that the horse was generally not accepting of the aids and not *through* and thus working incorrectly, so the outline/frame whatever, shown did not meet the standards.

the horse that goes BTV perhaps is overall more supple, kept a better tempo etc and met the standard better so scored higher (not saying thats a definate but just a perhaps). Perhaps the judge had many other things to comment on, the BTV being the smallest issue-judges can give pointers but not a mini riding lesson or essay and thus cannot cover every point!


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## TheMule (8 January 2014)

I feel very strongly that we need to look very carefully about the judging at the lower levels to ensure people are not misguided into thinking BTV is the way their hose should be. 
An educated rider understands how to work their horse so that it can be placed anywhere and sometimes BTV is the right place for the horse at that time- maybe it is being used to make the horse more supple, more rideable, less spooky, whatever.
However, many prelim riders that I see out and about fix the hands low or saw the head in and keep it there because that's what they think they should do. Judges then place them top of the class because their horse is 'on the bit'.


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (8 January 2014)

TheMule said:



			I feel very strongly that we need to look very carefully about the judging at the lower levels to ensure people are not misguided into thinking BTV is the way their hose should be. 
An educated rider understands how to work their horse so that it can be placed anywhere and sometimes BTV is the right place for the horse at that time- maybe it is being used to make the horse more supple, more rideable, less spooky, whatever.
However, many prelim riders that I see out and about fix the hands low or saw the head in and keep it there because that's what they think they should do. Judges then place them top of the class because their horse is 'on the bit'.
		
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i spend a lot of time at a lot of shows and we watch every class we possibly can and in 99% of cases there is more to it than this.

the riders that have taken the time to learn what the top riders do and try to copy them, have generally pickled up more than just *get its head in* and are often the people trying so so hard to actually supple and gymnastisize (sp?) their horse so may well be BTV (by mistake, mis timing etc)but may also be a lot more supple and a lot more connected and submissive than something IFV but tight over back and laterally stiff for eg.

they are the best of that class, not the best ever full stop and if they meet more of the criteria than anyone else, they will win.

granted this is BD not unaff but i see little sawing or fixing(aside from the odd anomalous shocker!)

I currently train 2 very talented young ladies on 2 young horses (one is 4 and the other is 5 but both are a little weak for their age).
we work on suppleness and throughness and making the horses as soft and strong as we can, week by week breaking down the stiffness and building up the strength.
These are horses ultimately aimed at medium-PSG level.

both horses have a tendancey to drop BTV if worried or tired(the big lad in particular) but having watched both at local unaff shows (prelim and nov) they are a lot more supple than 99% of the rerst of them and clearly showing ability for the higher levels.
I would be fuming if they were beaten by something that went round IFV but stiff as a board with no ability to stay on the hind leg or show true self carrige, no matter how deep they dropped!!!!!


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (8 January 2014)

final point:

if you produce a test, on the vertical or IFV, that is soft over back, laterally supple, accurate, connected and engaged you will NOT be beaten by a horse that is BTV plus all of the above.

so if you are being beaten by BTV horses, you have probably got other(bigger) issues to adress......


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## _GG_ (8 January 2014)

TheMule said:



			I feel very strongly that we need to look very carefully about the judging at the lower levels to ensure people are not misguided into thinking BTV is the way their hose should be. 
An educated rider understands how to work their horse so that it can be placed anywhere and sometimes BTV is the right place for the horse at that time- maybe it is being used to make the horse more supple, more rideable, less spooky, whatever.
However, many prelim riders that I see out and about fix the hands low or saw the head in and keep it there because that's what they think they should do. Judges then place them top of the class because their horse is 'on the bit'.
		
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Yes. 

Being behind the vertical does not automatically mean that a horse is not working correctly behind. It is possible for a horse to be BTV and engaged behind. 

Being above the vertical does not automatically mean that a horse is working correctly from behind. 

Being on the vertical does not automatically mean that a horse is working correctly from behind. 

Now, IMO and experience, a horse can only really be BTV and working correctly from behind when the horse is either young or green and unbalanced, where the BTV position is fleeting and created by the horse as he searches and learns OR when a horse is established in the basics and can be worked in a variety of frames without force or compromising the correct movement in the basic paces and exercises. 

I do not believe that it is possible for a horse to maintain correct engagement from behind AND be BTV when doing anything other than basic work. So, when I see a horse BTV in anything other than the basic paces in warm up, stretching or cool downs, I believe that the movement behind is compromised and at some point, some level of force has been used.

For these reasons, when I see a horse in a test setting that is BTV consistently, I cannot attribute it to anything other than poor training and riding. If the horse is young, it's time BTV should not last an entire test so the rider is at work keeping the head in that position. If the horse is established and doing a higher level test with more demanding movements, the front end should be light and the hind more engaged to enable the correct movement...so when I then see a consistent BTV head carriage, I believe that the horse is not working correctly and the training methods used have failed the horse and created the issue. 

Judging should be back to front in my opinion. Looking at the quality of the engagement and movement behind, through the lightness of the riders aids and down to the contact and acceptance of it. Judging very often however is front to back and this needs to be changed.


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## _GG_ (8 January 2014)

Prince33Sp4rkle said:



			i spend a lot of time at a lot of shows and we watch every class we possibly can and in 99% of cases there is more to it than this.

the riders that have taken the time to learn what the top riders do and try to copy them, have generally pickled up more than just *get its head in* and are often the people trying so so hard to actually supple and gymnastisize (sp?) their horse so may well be BTV (by mistake, mis timing etc)but may also be a lot more supple and a lot more connected and submissive than something IFV but tight over back and laterally stiff for eg.

they are the best of that class, not the best ever full stop and if they meet more of the criteria than anyone else, they will win.

granted this is BD not unaff but i see little sawing or fixing(aside from the odd anomalous shocker!)

I currently train 2 very talented young ladies on 2 young horses (one is 4 and the other is 5 but both are a little weak for their age).
we work on suppleness and throughness and making the horses as soft and strong as we can, week by week breaking down the stiffness and building up the strength.
These are horses ultimately aimed at medium-PSG level.

both horses have a tendancey to drop BTV if worried or tired(the big lad in particular) but having watched both at local unaff shows (prelim and nov) they are a lot more supple than 99% of the rerst of them and clearly showing ability for the higher levels.
I would be fuming if they were beaten by something that went round IFV but stiff as a board with no ability to stay on the hind leg or show true self carrige, no matter how deep they dropped!!!!!
		
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Prince33Sp4rkle said:



			final point:

if you produce a test, on the vertical or IFV, that is soft over back, laterally supple, accurate, connected and engaged you will NOT be beaten by a horse that is BTV plus all of the above.

so if you are being beaten by BTV horses, you have probably got other(bigger) issues to adress......
		
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Spot on. BTV is not the automatically the demon it is perceived to be. It just needs to be understood and its context recognised.


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## siennamum (8 January 2014)

I think a young horse having moments  BTV is more difficult to fix than a young horse which is poking it's nose and not really on the aids. I would kind of expect both at some moments in time though - especially when out and about with babies. My son's horse resolutely tucks his nose in which is a nightmare, he has always done it, maybe he was badly started, I suspect it has more to do with mouth issues as a baby tho. My horse was allowed to mature before I asked him to work in a more rounded outline, he is easy to work correctly at any time, he just finds it tiring.

Interestingly at the weekend we went and did a local unaff dressage. There was a very nice horse with super paces which was being warmed up perpetually short in the neck and btv. The rider looked like a semi pro, it was swinging along nicely and she worked it up into a better frame for periods.

After half an hour of solid trotting & cantering work the horse started misbehaving badly, rearing and napping and rider had to dismount during her test.

I wondered whether she rode it aggressively overbent because she knew it would misbehave. I find this is a route people take with young horses but when you shorten & over supple the neck you have no control in front of the withers IMO which can be far worse.

Anyway, the question which occurred to me at the time was whether in fact the horse started protesting because it was really uncomfortable or whether she had it in the over bent outline because she knew it might be naughty - neither is an ideal scenario.


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## meardsall_millie (8 January 2014)

Sorry Criso I'm not having a dig at you personally. 

PS has already articulated much of what I would have said so I won't repeat it. 

The only thing I would add is that we have to remember that training and test riding are very different. In training I expect to 'break eggs to make an omelette' - sometimes stuff has to be undone or done in an out of the ordinary way in order to put it back together correctly. 

In test riding we are putting ourselves up to be judged against the current standard for that level. I see it as an evaluation of my current progress with that horse but might not always like what I hear!

Whether the current standards for the level are correct is a whole other subject!


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (8 January 2014)

siennamum said:



			I think a young horse having moments  BTV is more difficult to fix than a young horse which is poking it's nose and not really on the aids. I would kind of expect both at some moments in time though - especially when out and about with babies. My son's horse resolutely tucks his nose in which is a nightmare, he has always done it, maybe he was badly started, I suspect it has more to do with mouth issues as a baby tho. My horse was allowed to mature before I asked him to work in a more rounded outline, he is easy to work correctly at any time, he just finds it tiring.

Interestingly at the weekend we went and did a local unaff dressage. There was a very nice horse with super paces which was being warmed up perpetually short in the neck and btv. The rider looked like a semi pro, it was swinging along nicely and she worked it up into a better frame for periods.

After half an hour of solid trotting & cantering work the horse started misbehaving badly, rearing and napping and rider had to dismount during her test.

I wondered whether she rode it aggressively overbent because she knew it would misbehave. I find this is a route people take with young horses but when you shorten & over supple the neck you have no control in front of the withers IMO which can be far worse.

Anyway, the question which occurred to me at the time was whether in fact the horse started protesting because it was really uncomfortable or whether she had it in the over bent outline because she knew it might be naughty - neither is an ideal scenario.
		
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i would hazard a guess she put it deep to stop it being a nob and over cooked it and the horse got tired/sore and said stuff you.

puttign them deep does work as a control mechanism (think rollkur) and is half the reason so many red hot GP horses come out very deep for the first 5/10 mins. Been there done it with a rearing and plunging CS-get its neck down and you take away much of the horses ability to explode randomly.

from a personal POV i find it much easier to get a forward thinking horse out to the contact than to ride a nose poker thats ignoring me.... but that may have more to do with mindset than frame-i want a horse that naturally wants to yield to the leg (got forward, or sideways, easily and sharply) and also yeild to the hand( maintain self carrige in the bend as well as the*frame* and not lean on me) and i find it easier to correct over enthusiastic BTV than a freight train that blunders along blindly ignoring me.


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## criso (8 January 2014)

Prince33Sp4rkle said:



			i find it easier to correct over enthusiastic BTV than a freight train that blunders along blindly ignoring me.
		
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Freight train pretty much  describes the btv horse I mentioned.  Stong, downhill, tense and tucks his nose into his chest as an evasion, usually prior to tanking off or broncing. 

The iftv horse I mentioned was only there to see how he would react in a competition environment and a civilised warm up rather than a chaotic jumping warm up and I was happy that he although initially distracted, he soon settled, listened and worked forward so I got what I wanted out of the day.


Now retired but he would give me a balanced uphill canter that I could shorten and lengthen, the sort of canter you would be happy to jump anything from.  Not my doing I  should add, just that he was naturally balanced and built that way.

I mentioned these examples as they seem part of a pattern that I see at unaffiliated competitions.  Horse after horse which has been forced into an outline it's not ready for, not working properly from behind.  It seems to me that that sort of training gone wrong should  be marked down more that a horse that has yet to learn not less.


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (8 January 2014)

it sounds like you got what you wanted out of the day? so lots to be pleased about? I would repeat that whichever horse meets the criteria the best/most, will win, and that if your IFV horse met all other criteria he would have won, so although his issue may not be BTV, there are obviously training issues to work on?

(and thats not a dig, lets face it there is always something to work on!)
if this happened when you took him for a look round, and he is now retired, im guessing this is a long time ago? standards have probably changed a lot since?

Judges dont try and place the wrong horse 1st, they simply judge what is presented to them accoridng to their training.

without pics no one can say for sure, but i would caution to look at the bigger pic and be honest about the IFV horses faults.


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## criso (8 January 2014)

Prince33Sp4rkle said:



			if this happened when you took him for a look round, and he is now retired, im guessing this is a long time ago? standards have probably changed a lot since?
		
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Retired through injury - it was 2 1/2 - 3  years ago so not that long.

I suppose what I'm saying it,  it does seem (at our local venues) that IFV always gets commented on but BTV even when forced doesn't seem to be.


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## little_flea (8 January 2014)

Haven't read all other replies, but IMO

BTV can be long, deep and round - if done correctly it helps build muscle and stretch the horse. No, it is not the correct dressage competition outline but certainly useful for training. Not talking about rollkur or being on the forehand, but a horse that is swinging through from behind with all muscles behind the saddle and at the top of the neck working, with a true contact. 

A lot of show jumpers (and dressage horses and eventers for that matter) are schooled this way and are not lacking in self carriage, elasticity or muscle tone. It is just not correct for a dressage test.

A horse who has a rigid neck, star gazing, sticking right out with the rider basically sitting on its spine takes MUCH more damage. But people on HHO generally don't like to criticise these riders...


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## TarrSteps (8 January 2014)

Why is a horse in front of the vertical assumed to be stiff/tanking/resistant? Having options means all options.


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## cptrayes (8 January 2014)

Prince33Sp4rkle said:



			final point:

if you produce a test, on the vertical or IFV, that is soft over back, laterally supple, accurate, connected and engaged you will NOT be beaten by a horse that is BTV plus all of the above.

so if you are being beaten by BTV horses, you have probably got other(bigger) issues to adress......
		
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I'm sorry, I don't agree. I think in the venues I go to that the horse which is behind the verticle will beat the one which is in front of the verticle, where everything else is equal,  at least nine times out of ten.


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## TarrSteps (8 January 2014)

cptrayes said:



			I'm sorry, I don't agree. I think in the venues I go to that the horse which is behind the verticle will beat the one which is in front of the verticle, where everything else is equal,  at least nine times out of ten.
		
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I'm afraid I agree, at least for local unaffiliated competitions. I did have a student win a test with a horse consistently ifv under a listed judge but in the other ring the judge made it very clear that in order to get anything over a 4 that was not acceptable. Mixed message!

I would say, too, I have seen a couple of lessons recently with local 'competition' trainers who were quite blunt in saying that it was preferable to have the horse behind, even if this was done by having the hand low and wide. In the face of that sort of input I can't see why a less experienced student would make a different decision and I don't think the trainers would say it if they didn't feel it was true.


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## GinaGeo (8 January 2014)

I have had btv on my BD Prelim  tests before, my horse was five, relatively immature and when tense or tired sometimes his natural response was to drop deep. Usually the comments stem from the medium walk, where he starts to anticipate a stretch down in to the Free Walk. Granted if I wasn't holding the reins he'd drop his nose to the ground instead. 

We do use LDR in his work to help strengthen and supple him, just as we also spend a lot of time pushing him up to the vertical to really get him to start pushing through from behind, sometimes we put him front of the vertical a smidgen to exaggerate it.   

You can't train a horse in one frame, you don't see gymnasts only working one set of muscles so you?  Of course there's a correct frame, there's Valegro and that's how we want our horses to go, beautifully on the vertical, soft, relaxed and powerful. Valegro isn't always ridden in that comp outline


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## Patterdale (8 January 2014)

Did anyone actually see the article in question?

I did. I was at the yard when I read it, I and another instructor there actually couldn't believe what we were reading. There were several pictures of that same chestnut horse, and it was overbent in all of them. 
Immediately lost all respect for the trainer. Anyone who thinks that they were good pictures to use on an article about how to train the young horse really isn't on the same page as me when it comes to schooling. 
It wasnt even that it was overbent but the 'stretching' excuse could be used, as the line was clearly broken about a third of the way down from the poll. 

I thought it was a shockingly irresponsible article, and so did everyone else I know who saw it.


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## Patterdale (8 January 2014)

Ps it's 'vertical' not 'verticle' if anyone's bothered


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## oldie48 (8 January 2014)

I love these threads, put up a picture of a horse and we're free to pull it to pieces. I think i must be missing the vids of the pretty grey horse who was consistently btv, sorry can't remember his name! Not wishing to stir things up but I understood ideally the horse should be slightly IFV with the poll the highest point in a test. clearly the poll won't be the highest point when when working long and low etc but I thought the nose should still be slightly IFV. Am I wrong? I'm sure someone will put me straight about this.


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## Patterdale (8 January 2014)

oldie48 said:



			I love these threads, put up a picture of a horse and we're free to pull it to pieces. I think i must be missing the vids of the pretty grey horse who was consistently btv, sorry can't remember his name!.
		
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But the point of this thread is, it's not just a moment in time. It was a series of pictures showing a young horse being schooled incorrectly in a nationally circulated magazine - which is shockingly irresponsible.


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## oldie48 (8 January 2014)

Sorry i just saw the one picture and as I said in an earlier post, I thought it was a poor choice for a number of reasons but it seems to have sparked a lot of exchanges additional to that debate.



Patterdale said:



			But the point of this thread is, it's not just a moment in time. It was a series of pictures showing a young horse being schooled incorrectly in a nationally circulated magazine - which is shockingly irresponsible.
		
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## Cortez (8 January 2014)

I'd be interested to hear what we all think of this horse and his carriage?


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## oldie48 (8 January 2014)

As a declared novice, who doesn't train anyone or bring on young horses I'm prepared to have a go. Nothing better to do on a windy rainy evening. It's of course difficult to tell from a static picture but I think he may be tight in the muscle under his neck and have what my trainer describes as a stick in the throat which will stop him properly coming through from behind


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## Cortez (8 January 2014)

oldie48 said:



			As a declared novice, who doesn't train anyone or bring on young horses I'm prepared to have a go. Nothing better to do on a windy rainy evening. It's of course difficult to tell from a static picture but I think he may be tight in the muscle under his neck and have what my trainer describes as a stick in the throat which will stop him properly coming through from behind
		
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Interesting, but having ridden him that certainly wasn't my experience (he's a PRE stallion with a massive crest, BTW), quite supple in his neck and through his body.


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## oldie48 (8 January 2014)

Well that just shows a static picture is difficult to judge! what does BTV mean?



Cortez said:



			Interesting, but having ridden him that certainly wasn't my experience (he's a PRE stallion with a massive crest, BTW), quite supple in his neck and through his body.
		
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## Pongwiffy (8 January 2014)

When I bought my horse he never went BTV - but he was also very stiff, unbalanced, and lacked muscle everywhere except on the underside of his neck which was hugely overdeveloped and rock-solid. He was also very prone to bringing his neck up and back towards his withers as an evasion.
As his schooling and acceptance of the contact improved he seemed to go to the other extreme and appeared BTV most of the time even though the contact felt softer and more elastic and he was startingto swing through his back. I knew the outline wasn't correct but I couldn't deny that to ride he certainly felt better and he was definitely tracking up.

A year later he will now spends the majority of a schooling session OTV or varying between slightly behind or IFV depending on what we are doing. I never actively try to ride him BTV but he will start to drop his poll and come BTV when he starts to tire or initially performing harder exercises - presumably a lot of BTV is down to a lack of strength and is therefore not a fault as such?

My ultimate aim is to get him as up and open as possible in front but in order to achieve that without the braced underneck and hollow back is going to take a huge amount of strength and effort on his part as he needs to carry himself differently to how he does naturally and this takes time to develop, especially as his conformation is less than ideal. Few horses are presented as the finished article.

I also think that conformation must play a role. I remember reading an article online comparing 2 photos of piaffe, they were basically identical but one of the horses had a longer neck and thinner throatlatch and therefore found it easier to maintain an on the vertical head position where as the horse with the shorter neck was more IFV. Therefore I assume a shorter neck/thicker throatlatch makes it easier for a horse to stay IFV and less likely to overbend?


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## siennamum (8 January 2014)

Ref Cortez's horse, I like it though I am no expert. He is on, if not slightly in front of the vertical. It looks a fairly engaged trot, but it is so hard with pre's I think as they can look lovely but when compared to a WB there is not a lot of thoroughness or activity over the back. That horse could have no weight in the reins at all and yet do a piaffe I would imagine.


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## charlimouse (8 January 2014)

I've been following this thread, it is so interesting hearing the different viewpoints. I'm going to stick my neck on the line here (may live to regret this!). But thoughts on this picture. Horse is a rising 4yo and this is about her 6th time under saddle and 3rd time in the arena.


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## siennamum (8 January 2014)

charlimouse said:



			I've been following this thread, it is so interesting hearing the different viewpoints. I'm going to stick my neck on the line here (may live to regret this!). But thoughts on this picture. Horse is a rising 4yo and this is about her 6th time under saddle and 3rd time in the arena. 






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I love this and have very similar pictures of my gelding when he was at a similar stage, just perfect IMO, working actively, happy in the contact, no strain, beginning of connection from the back to the hand without losing it via overbending or through the shoulders.


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## Cragrat (8 January 2014)

As a totally useless rider, stressage-wise particularly, I am finding this thread fascinating.


But just want to throw in that not ALL  judges prefer BTV.  I was delighted last year when my son took our family horse to their first ever BE, (80T) and achieved a dressage score which put them in the top third of a large class.  This despite me being very worried they would get an embarrassingly poor score, partly because the old mare is determinedly IFV occasionally OTV.  but she is active, supple, etc, and they got lovely comments about 'correct scales of training'.  (And made me giggle because presumably the judge thought she was a youngster!)

In fact this has encouraged my son, typical teenage boy who loves to jump etc, to declare a few weeks later that he wants to have more flat work lessons <fainting with shock gif here>


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## cptrayes (8 January 2014)

Cragrat said:



			As a totally useless rider, stressage-wise particularly, I am finding this thread fascinating.


But just want to throw in that not ALL  judges prefer BTV.  I was delighted last year when my son took our family horse to their first ever BE, (80T) and achieved a dressage score which put them in the top third of a large class.  This despite me being very worried they would get an embarrassingly poor score, partly because the old mare is determinedly IFV occasionally OTV.  but she is active, supple, etc, and they got lovely comments about 'correct scales of training'.  (And made me giggle because presumably the judge thought she was a youngster!)

In fact this has encouraged my son, typical teenage boy who loves to jump etc, to declare a few weeks later that he wants to have more flat work lessons <fainting with shock gif here> 

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Iunderstand that they are told to score differently for eventing, to allow for fitter horses anticipating  going jumping


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## NellRosk (8 January 2014)

I am in the process of schooling my young horse and as she doesn't yet have the correct muscle, yes sometimes she drops below the vertical and overbends a little. And then we work on pushing her up and out of this. I would hate for anyone to take a photo of her when she's overbending and then use it against me to say what I'm doing is wrong.


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## Patterdale (8 January 2014)

NellRosk said:



			I am in the process of schooling my young horse and as she doesn't yet have the correct muscle, yes sometimes she drops below the vertical and overbends a little. And then we work on pushing her up and out of this. I would hate for anyone to take a photo of her when she's overbending and then use it against me to say what I'm doing is wrong.
		
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But that's not what happened here. A trainer, writing an article on schooling young horses, deliberately CHOSE more than one picture of an overbent horse, which means that they presumably think that this is the correct way for a young horse to go. 
Which it's not. 
And people will read that and think 'oh, that's what I should be doing!'


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## NellRosk (8 January 2014)

Patterdale said:



			But that's not what happened here. A trainer, writing an article on schooling young horses, deliberately CHOSE more than one picture of an overbent horse, which means that they presumably think that this is the correct way for a young horse to go. 
Which it's not. 
And people will read that and think 'oh, that's what I should be doing!'
		
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OP asked if the article/ photo was representing the current trend for starting horses and I was just giving my example to show that (I hope) it's not!


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## Cragrat (8 January 2014)

cptrayes said:



			Iunderstand that they are told to score differently for eventing, to allow for fitter horses anticipating  going jumping
		
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So does that mean eventers do more 'correct/classical' dressage than BD?


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## TarrSteps (8 January 2014)

charlimouse said:



			I've been following this thread, it is so interesting hearing the different viewpoints. I'm going to stick my neck on the line here (may live to regret this!). But thoughts on this picture. Horse is a rising 4yo and this is about her 6th time under saddle and 3rd time in the arena. 






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Since I've already told you I think (for what it's worth) you're doing a good job with her, I will just point out that, having seen the video, you could have produced photo to illustrate about 4 other positions/contacts.  This is, of course, the nature of the beast with young horses but it does show you can't judge anything helpful from a photo.  The best test will have bad moments and vice versa.

For a horse at that stage I would ALWAYS want them to be taking the hand forward and except for perhaps a brief moment here or there, I am not happy if they come behind the hand because it means I'm doing something wrong.  Once the horse can stay reasonably straight and forward with a following hand, then I can start to ask a bit more and the contact might become less consistent.  But in those first rides it is MY job to keep the contact soft and forward, not the baby horse's.  With that soft connection I should be able to start shaping the horse within a few rides but without any stress or loss of BASIC connection.  I'll be really honest, I think a lot of horses get a little bit screwed up at this stage - you never have a second chance to make a first impression.  I have NEVER sat on a healthy, decently produced young horse that is not soft in the back and innocent in the contact.  I know that goes away just with "life" to some extent but it's my job as a producer to keep as much as that in there as possible.  I will add the caveat that I have never met a horse out of racing with that innocent connection in tact - the way they are started and the job precludes it.  It doesn't mean such horses can't be taught but don't confuse a completely green horse with one out of racing, at least in this area.


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## TarrSteps (8 January 2014)

cptrayes said:



			Iunderstand that they are told to score differently for eventing, to allow for fitter horses anticipating  going jumping
		
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I don't think they are TOLD to, I think the culture is different and the majority of horses go differently than "straight" dressage horses. Someone has to win. 

Also, I think it makes a difference if the horse's main job is not dressage, in the horse and in the riding.  Gymnasts do not look like weightlifters for a reason.


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## cptrayes (8 January 2014)

TarrSteps said:



			I don't think they are TOLD to, I think the culture is different and the majority of horses go differently than "straight" dressage horses. Someone has to win. 

Also, I think it makes a difference if the horse's main job is not dressage, in the horse and in the riding.  Gymnasts do not look like weightlifters for a reason.
		
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I thought I had read that they were told to at the major events. I may be incorrect in that.


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## Ferdinase514 (9 January 2014)

To be very clear:

judges are NOT told to judge eventers differently.

Judges do not prefer horses BTV or above the bit. Both are incorrect.


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## cptrayes (9 January 2014)

Ferdinase514 said:



			To be very clear:

judges are NOT told to judge eventers differently.

Judges do not prefer horses BTV or above the bit. Both are incorrect.
		
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When did in front of the verticle on aproper contact become incorrect in a prelim class?


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## cptrayes (9 January 2014)

Just want to add that I do realize that this technique works, and that my understanding is that the vast majority of pro riders do it, including the Hester yard. And Nikki posted lots of pictures of Fig overbent in the early days, which I queried at the time, but nobody can deny the results she is getting.

So I do wonder if it can genuinely be called wrong to school deliberately btv when it achieves the results in the ring that the judges are scoring so high?


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (9 January 2014)

cptrayes said:



			When did in front of the verticle on aproper contact become incorrect in a prelim class?
		
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IFV and above the bit are not the same! No one is saying IFV is incorrect.


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## Cortez (9 January 2014)

Prince33Sp4rkle said:



			IFV and above the bit are not the same! No one is saying IFV is incorrect.
		
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Got there ahead of me; completely agree ^^^


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## cptrayes (9 January 2014)

Cortez said:



			Got there ahead of me; completely agree ^^^
		
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Completely agree too, so confused why the comment was made?

we were comparing btv and in front, to which the judge made no comment, it appears?


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (9 January 2014)

because your reply seem to be in response to Ferdinase's commetn about BTV and above the bit BOTH being incorrect? you then asked about since whenw as IFV an incorrect prelim outline?


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## Ferdinase514 (9 January 2014)

Wasn't directed at anyone in particular was replying on phone - a rather blunt tool!

Was just being clear about both outlines being incorrect irrelevant of what has been discussed. I was more miffed by the judging eventers differently comment - said with such authority yet little actual knowledge.

I do feel this thread is focussing on a very specific, detail. Judging movements in any test at any level involves a holistic view of what is presented, in context of the scales of training. outline/contact is just one element and is not static throughout, hence photographs often so not give accurate reflection of what is happening throughout, yet are often used to highlight a horse or rider using/being trained incorrectly.


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## Ferdinase514 (9 January 2014)

And just to add, young horses occasionally drop poll due to loss of balance due to lack of strength not always because are being ridden deep. Quite normal!


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## cptrayes (9 January 2014)

cptrayes said:



			I thought I had read that they were told to at the major events. *I may be incorrect in that.*

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Ferdinase514 said:



			I was more miffed by the judging eventers differently comment - said with *such authority * yet little actual knowledge.
.
		
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## Prince33Sp4rkle (9 January 2014)

Ferdinase514 said:



			Wasn't directed at anyone in particular was replying on phone - a rather blunt tool!

Was just being clear about both outlines being incorrect irrelevant of what has been discussed. I was more miffed by the judging eventers differently comment - said with such authority yet little actual knowledge.

I do feel this thread is focussing on a very specific, detail. Judging movements in any test at any level involves a holistic view of what is presented, in context of the scales of training. outline/contact is just one element and is not static throughout, hence photographs often so not give accurate reflection of what is happening throughout, yet are often used to highlight a horse or rider using/being trained incorrectly.
		
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yes!


Ferdinase514 said:



			And just to add, young horses occasionally drop poll due to loss of balance due to lack of strength not always because are being ridden deep. Quite normal!
		
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yes again!

the overall picture and overall way of going is so much more important. Hence my pleas to be very honest about how the *ifv horse* goes generally, in comparison to how a slightly *btv horse* goes generally.
its too easy to say well hers was overbent and mine wasnt, why didnt i win.

sometimes BTV is the lesser of 2 evils, and just as a personal example, CS tends to want to drop his wither shoulder and brace his poll in the trot HP, but he stays very much IFV. However he also drops behind my leg and goes a bit piggy.

If i ride him a bit deeper and rounder, which makes it easier to stop the bracing and keep the wither up, he stays more honestly connected to my hand and in front of the leg.

the latter is a more honest way of going and a better way to improve/train the HP and hopefully will eventually lead to him being able to stay soft, supple, connected, in front of me AND IFV.


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## cptrayes (9 January 2014)

Ferdinase514 said:



			I do feel this thread is focussing on a very specific, detail. Judging movements in any test at any level involves a holistic view of what is presented, in context of the scales of training. outline/contact is just one element and is not static throughout, hence photographs often so not give accurate reflection of what is happening throughout, yet are often used to highlight a horse or rider using/being trained incorrectly.
		
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The thread is actually about that picture and others being used to illustrate a horse being trained CORRECTLY



disclaimer: I am not, do not claim to be, and never will be a dressage superstar


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## nikkimariet (9 January 2014)

cptrayes said:



			Nikki posted lots of pictures of Fig overbent in the early days, which I queried at the time, but nobody can deny the results she is getting.
		
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Because he was young, green, tired easily and wasn't 100% perfect?

A moment in time showing Fig acutely BTV is not the end of the world in the grand scheme of my plans with him.



Ferdinase514 said:



			said with such authority yet little actual knowledge.

I do feel this thread is focussing on a very specific, detail. Judging movements in any test at any level involves a holistic view of what is presented, in context of the scales of training. outline/contact is just one element and is not static throughout, hence photographs often so not give accurate reflection of what is happening throughout, yet are often used to highlight a horse or rider using/being trained incorrectly.
		
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Spot on and spot on.


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## cptrayes (9 January 2014)

nikkimariet said:



			Because he was young, green and tired easily? He may have been 7yo, but fresh out of training was equiv to 3yo standard horse just starting work.

A moment in time showing BTV is not the end of the world in the grand scheme of my plans with Fig...
		
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Why have you taken this as a criticism?

Read the post again. I am asking whether we should stop considering training overbent as a fault, and your own success is one of the things that makes me question whether it is, in fact, wrong as I was taught.


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## cptrayes (9 January 2014)

for those who judge British Eventing there are aspects of judging that are slightly different. Please click on the link for some guidelines
		
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From the British Dressage website:


http://www.britishdressage.co.uk/judging/judge_updates


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## Ferdinase514 (9 January 2014)

If you don't train a horse to be supple over it's back you will end up with a horse like a concrete block in the contact. Deep and round is part if this supplying.

That is my training opinion btw not saying I want to judge horses in a deep round outline in competition.


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## _GG_ (9 January 2014)

nikkimariet said:



			Because he was young, green, tired easily and wasn't 100% perfect?

A moment in time showing Fig acutely BTV is not the end of the world in the grand scheme of my plans with him.



Spot on and spot on.
		
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I don't think CPT meant that as a criticism, but maybe just that there was a criticism originally?

Either way, I'd be more worried about a young or green horse that never dipped BTV that one who does it through it's early training.

I'd have seen Fig as a horse learning, not a horse evading and you and he are the proof in the pudding that it doesn't have to mean evasion or poor training....quite the opposite IMO


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## paddy (9 January 2014)

Cortez said:



			I have yet to see any young/untrained horse place itself BTV...........(I stress the "itself")
		
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Do come and visit us!  My OH has a green 7yo we're bringing on very slowly as she's a) huge and b) exceptionally powerful behind.  She doesn't yet have the strength and balance to deal with her power and her default is to go, often very, overbent.  OH is constantly working on lengthening the neck - it's certainly not intentional - and asking her to move in a less extravagant way, both in conjunction with our trainer!  

My understanding from watching purpose built young dressage horses is that this is not uncommon.  My ID bog monster, on the other hand, defaulted to nose poking as a youngster.


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (9 January 2014)

Ferdinase514 said:



			If you don't train a horse to be supple over it's back you will end up with a horse like a concrete block in the contact. Deep and round is part if this supplying.

That is my training opinion btw not saying I want to judge horses in a deep round outline in competition.
		
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yes for the 3rd time!

i cant actually see the original pics at work, but to blanket state that training deep/BTV is wrong/irresponsible etc is at best naiive.

BTV does not have to mean behind the contact either, i ride deep but not without connection/contact/engagement.


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## Ferdinase514 (9 January 2014)

Cptrays - judging is always against the scales of training regardless of whether BE or BD. "Allowances" are not made for discipline or fitness in these scales. This guidance is encouraging judges not to over penalise minor errors due to uneven going or over exuberance ie to be encouraging in comments.


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## nikkimariet (9 January 2014)

Ferdinase514 said:



			If you don't train a horse to be supple over it's back you will end up with a horse like a concrete block in the contact. Deep and round is part if this supplying.
		
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Prince33Sp4rkle said:



			to blanket state that training deep/BTV is wrong/irresponsible etc is at best naiive.
		
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cptrayes said:



			I am asking whether we should stop considering training overbent as a fault, and your own success is one of the things that makes me question whether it is, in fact, wrong as I was taught.
		
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I agree with Ferdi and PS.



_GG_ said:



			I don't think CPT meant that as a criticism, but maybe just that there was a criticism originally?

I'd have seen Fig as a horse learning, not a horse evading and you and he are the proof in the pudding that it doesn't have to mean evasion or poor training....quite the opposite IMO 

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I didn't see it as a criticism (although there was indeed a criticism originally), I just gave an explanation.

And thank you - he is a remarkable little character who completely outwits me at times


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## cptrayes (9 January 2014)

nikkimariet said:



			I agree with Ferdi and PS.



I didn't see it as a criticism (although there was indeed a criticism originally), I just gave an explanation.

And thank you - he is a remarkable little character who completely outwits me at times 

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Actually there wasn't a criticism initially either. There was a plain, straightforward question, which you choose, quite within your rights, not to answer. I genuinely wanted to know if your photos were a moment in time, or if your trainer had you riding him like it deliberately. I was trying to learn. 

Whatever, your results now clarify for me that it is too simplistic to apply a blanket 'it's wrong' to training overbent, no matter what I have been taught in the past.


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## cptrayes (9 January 2014)

Ferdinase514 said:



			Cptrays - judging is always against the scales of training regardless of whether BE or BD. "Allowances" are not made for discipline or fitness in these scales. This guidance is encouraging judges not to over penalise minor errors due to uneven going or over exuberance ie to be encouraging in comments.
		
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You said categorically that judges are not told to judge eventing differently, and you were pretty blunt about me in doing so. And yet there it is in black and white on the BD website - the guidance as to how eventers are to be judged differently.

I do not need this explanation thank you. Though an apology for your incorrect and unfair criticism of my post might have been nice


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## nikkimariet (9 January 2014)

cptrayes said:



			Actually there wasn't a criticism initially either. There was a plain, straightforward question, which you choose, quite within your rights, not to answer. I genuinely wanted to know if your photos were a moment in time, or if your trainer had you riding him like it deliberately. I was trying to learn. 

Whatever, your results now clarify for me that it is too simplistic to apply a blanket 'it's wrong' to training overbent, no matter what I have been taught in the past.
		
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cptrayes said:



			You said categorically that judges are not told to judge eventing differently, and you were pretty blunt about me in doing so. And yet there it is in black and white on the BD website - the guidance as to how eventers are to be judged differently.

I do not need this explanation thank you. Though an apology for your incorrect and unfair criticism of my post might have been nice 

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An apology for all your previous incorrect and unfair criticisms would be lovely, but I don't believe pigs fly


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## TheMule (9 January 2014)

Ferdinase514 said:



			If you don't train a horse to be supple over it's back you will end up with a horse like a concrete block in the contact. Deep and round is part if this supplying.
		
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I'm sure you didn't mean it like this, but you can of course get a lovely supple horse without ever riding it deep and round. 

I would never, ever ride my horse deep and round. It's against what i believe to be beneficial for my horses, but that doesnt mean they aren't supple


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## Ferdinase514 (9 January 2014)

The guidance does not tell judges to judge BE differently it asks for understanding and encouragement.

Again, all horses are judged against the scales of training. It does say that in the guidance.


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## cptrayes (9 January 2014)

Ferdinase514 said:



			The guidance does not tell judges to judge BE differently it asks for understanding and encouragement.

Again, all horses are judged against the scales of training. It does say that in the guidance.
		
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Clearly the word 




			different
		
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  on the BD website means something different to you than it does to me.


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## TarrSteps (9 January 2014)

Why does this sort of thing always end up in a spat?  Surely people train their horses in the way they see fit and proper so why would you even care what anyone else says or thinks, especially if you're having the competitive success you're aiming for.

Now I'm going to really piss you off . . .

There is an element of fashion in all of this (not to mention politics), it's not merely a question of "right" and "wrong".  To the best of my knowledge no one has done a definitive scientific study comparing the various schools/systems of training and riding and their long term effects on the horse and, frankly, no one is going to.  So we are going by people's opinions.  Even if it's in a book, it's still an opinion.  Now, everyone will say, "but the horse FEELS better" if you do x or y . . but that's subjective, too.  Horses in other disciplines don't feel like dressage horses and they aren't "wrong" just different.  The school of dressage that is currently in vogue, which influences everything from saddle design to breeding to acceptance of "normal", is one that dictates horses go a certain way and, of course, this means practices and attitudes will develop to meet this.  After all, the point of competition is to win!  I'm not saying this is "right" or "wrong" - see above - it just is what it is.  Other people, in other schools don't necessarily feel the same.  I don't think they should necessarily expect to have good competition results but that's another conversation. 

I quite often joke that riding is like religion.  People cleve very strongly to their beliefs and tend to assume they have come from on high, but really, they are just the work of man. 

If you look at footage, photos and instructional tomes from, say, 50+ years ago, you will see a different picture - literally! The horses in Harry Boldts beautiful book are all "up and out" as a rule, and there is very little btv even in stretching work.  Ditto Klimke's book.  If you read more French Light/Spanish books you will see more horses with shorter necks but then some of that is because the type tends to be heavier in the crest and therefore "look" shorter even when correct, as Cortez's photo showed.  Not "wrong" just different.

I am now old enough, and from a backwards enough place, to have ridden through the transition in dressage.  We didn't ride "purpose bred" horses - I clearly remember the first German bred horse that came to our town - and most horses also jumped or evented. Almost every horse was naturally in front of the vertical because of the way they were built and the way they were ridden.  In lower tests is was considered normal and therefore "right".  And, you'll be shocked to know, I don't think those horses were, on average "worse" to ride.  Just different. And, the thing is, I'm not THAT old - there are still lots of people around who were educated in those schools of thought and continue to want to train that way.  I agree, if they want to be dressage stars, they need to move with the time, but not everyone agrees.  

All I'm trying to say, in my usual rambling way, is that this isn't a simple conversation about "wrong" or "right" and to make it about absolutes is to miss the point.  Train your horses the way you think best.  (Btw, I think the FEI is a bit weak in this area because they pay lip service to the traditional thought - no one is going to say Boldt was "wrong" - but they don't always follow though.  I'd rather they just admitted to the reality but that ain't going to happen.)


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## cptrayes (9 January 2014)

TarrSteps said:



			Why does this sort of thing always end up in a spat?  Surely people train their horses in the way they see fit and proper so why would you even care what anyone else says or thinks, especially if you're having the competitive success you're aiming for.

Now I'm going to really piss you off . . .

There is an element of fashion in all of this (not to mention politics), it's not merely a question of "right" and "wrong".  To the best of my knowledge no one has done a definitive scientific study comparing the various schools/systems of training and riding and their long term effects on the horse and, frankly, no one is going to.  So we are going by people's opinions.  Even if it's in a book, it's still an opinion.  Now, everyone will say, "but the horse FEELS better" if you do x or y . . but that's subjective, too.  Horses in other disciplines don't feel like dressage horses and they aren't "wrong" just different.  The school of dressage that is currently in vogue, which influences everything from saddle design to breeding to acceptance of "normal", is one that dictates horses go a certain way and, of course, this means practices and attitudes will develop to meet this.  After all, the point of competition is to win!  I'm not saying this is "right" or "wrong" - see above - it just is what it is.  Other people, in other schools don't necessarily feel the same.  I don't think they should necessarily expect to have good competition results but that's another conversation. 

I quite often joke that riding is like religion.  People cleve very strongly to their beliefs and tend to assume they have come from on high, but really, they are just the work of man. 

If you look at footage, photos and instructional tomes from, say, 50+ years ago, you will see a different picture - literally! The horses in Harry Boldts beautiful book are all "up and out" as a rule, and there is very little btv even in stretching work.  Ditto Klimke's book.  If you read more French Light/Spanish books you will see more horses with shorter necks but then some of that is because the type tends to be heavier in the crest and therefore "look" shorter even when correct, as Cortez's photo showed.  Not "wrong" just different.

I am now old enough, and from a backwards enough place, to have ridden through the transition in dressage.  We didn't ride "purpose bred" horses - I clearly remember the first German bred horse that came to our town - and most horses also jumped or evented. Almost every horse was naturally in front of the vertical because of the way they were built and the way they were ridden.  In lower tests is was considered normal and therefore "right".  And, you'll be shocked to know, I don't think those horses were, on average "worse" to ride.  Just different. And, the thing is, I'm not THAT old - there are still lots of people around who were educated in those schools of thought and continue to want to train that way.  I agree, if they want to be dressage stars, they need to move with the time, but not everyone agrees.  

All I'm trying to say, in my usual rambling way, is that this isn't a simple conversation about "wrong" or "right" and to make it about absolutes is to miss the point.  Train your horses the way you think best.  (Btw, I think the FEI is a bit weak in this area because they pay lip service to the traditional thought - no one is going to say Boldt was "wrong" - but they don't always follow though.  I'd rather they just admitted to the reality but that ain't going to happen.)
		
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Brilliant


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## amandap (9 January 2014)

Atamekan said:



			The picture on www.team-teke.co.uk/miscellaneous.html has twice accompanied an article on training the young horse appearing in a nationally circulated magazine. The horse is nearly 30 degrees overbent, the consequent shortening of stride clear in the picture. Does this accurately present the current fashion for starting young horses, and if so is it correct?
		
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Is the horse toe first landing? 

A young horse dipping BTV is surely very different to being pulled BTV and especially for extended periods. 

Photos might be a moment in time but they do provide a powerful image, so I think taking extra care, when choosing them to illustrate points, is very important.

ps. .Good post Tarrsteps but until valid, longer term studies are done we wont know the right or wrong as far as horses are concerned! I believe we must err on the side of caution myself which in itself is subjective! lol


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## MadisonBelle (9 January 2014)

Is it not horses for courses though? 

I only compete at the lower levels but have been riding my own horses for almost 30 years. My current one wouldn't have know how to go BTW, or even correctly IFV if my life depended on it despite having lessons with graded dressage judges and BE/BS accredited coaches. Very bluntly I was told to "strap her down". I chose not too but I perserved with my equi ami or that Kerilli technique and she would go beautifully so why not with me on board? Finally got a lungee bungee which is completely elastic to lunge in and she loved it and again looked fab on the lunge. I now lunge before I ride both with this aid on and I have a different horse! Her back is up, she is swinging along and everything feels so much easier for us both and yes the aid is swinging too so I now it's not "holding her down". Yes I used/am still using artificle aids but this has only been in the last 2 months and I have owed this horse 4 years. She is now working amazingingly and as my BS accredited trainer said just last night "not all horses are born with a manual" Yes I had to bring her BTV to get this out of her but the quality of her work now is just fabulous! She is a big gangly warmblood just turned 8 and maybe it's taken 4 years for her to have the strength to finally work this way and even though it went agaist all my principles to ride her BTV she has stegthened like you wouldn't believe and has become so supple too!

On the other side of the coin my friends youngster only goes BTV and she is struggling like mad to get him in front but he also wins every single dressage test he does and got a 23 at his first BE Event last year despite his nose even being on his chest at times (him not rider).

We used to laugh saying if we mixed them together we'd have the perfect horse as her's has also never gone clear showjumping yet mine never faults!?


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## TarrSteps (9 January 2014)

amandap said:



			Is the horse toe first landing? 

A young horse dipping BTV is surely very different to being pulled BTV and especially for extended periods. 

Photos might be a moment in time but they do provide a powerful image, so I think taking extra care, when choosing them to illustrate points, is very important.

ps. .Good post Tarrsteps but until valid, longer term studies are done we wont know the right or wrong as far as horses are concerned! I believe we must err on the side of caution myself which in itself is subjective! lol
		
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But caution doesn't win medals. 

And there is absolutely no objective reason for such a study, especially since it would take years. All the small
 examinations of the subject have been done by people with an agenda. Plus I don't know how you'd control the variables or even decide on parameters. At the least, there is a good chance that what is good for muscles in the short term might be bad for joints in the long term. . .


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## amandap (9 January 2014)

TarrSteps said:



			But caution doesn't win medals. 

And there is absolutely no objective reason for such a study, especially since it would take years. All the small
 examinations of the subject have been done by people with an agenda. Plus I don't know how you'd control the variables or even decide on parameters. At the least, there is a good chance that what is good for muscles in the short term might be bad for joints in the long term. . .
		
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I'm sure they wont be done! Humans will continue to argue among themselves and fashion will change, horses will continue to do the best they can to win us medals, money and kudos ...in silence!


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## TarrSteps (9 January 2014)

MadisonBelle said:



			Is it not horses for courses though? 

I only compete at the lower levels but have been riding my own horses for almost 30 years. My current one wouldn't have know how to go BTW, or even correctly IFV if my life depended on it despite having lessons with graded dressage judges and BE/BS accredited coaches. Very bluntly I was told to "strap her down". I chose not too but I perserved with my equi ami or that Kerilli technique and she would go beautifully so why not with me on board? Finally got a lungee bungee which is completely elastic to lunge in and she loved it and again looked fab on the lunge. I now lunge before I ride both with this aid on and I have a different horse! Her back is up, she is swinging along and everything feels so much easier for us both and yes the aid is swinging too so I now it's not "holding her down". Yes I used/am still using artificle aids but this has only been in the last 2 months and I have owed this horse 4 years. She is now working amazingingly and as my BS accredited trainer said just last night "not all horses are born with a manual" Yes I had to bring her BTV to get this out of her but the quality of her work now is just fabulous! She is a big gangly warmblood just turned 8 and maybe it's taken 4 years for her to have the strength to finally work this way and even though it went agaist all my principles to ride her BTV she has stegthened like you wouldn't believe and has become so supple too!

On the other side of the coin my friends youngster only goes BTV and she is struggling like mad to get him in front but he also wins every single dressage test he does and got a 23 at his first BE Event last year despite his nose even being on his chest at times (him not rider).

We used to laugh saying if we mixed them together we'd have the perfect horse as her's has also never gone clear showjumping yet mine never faults!?
		
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That last comment is interesting. I made a comment earlier that my experience and observation suggests that how horses go on the flat cannot be disconnected from their jumping.  Horses that are chronically behind the vertical - or worse behind the hand - tend not to jump well. I think the confusion comes because most modern sj'ers work their horses very round/deep to strengthen and supple them in particular ways. BUT this accounts for a limited portion of their work and is combined with very different work. Plus I've yet to see a good jumper that can't be ridden up and out at any time.


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## Charliepony (9 January 2014)

If you look on youtube for *winning* prelim tests, 90% or more are behind the vertical. not suggesting this is a good thing or a bad thing, but that is just what anyone can clearly see.

in prelim though you're not showing a 'finished' horse so there shouldn't be an expectation for the outline to be perfect. whether or not behind the vertical has a huge negative impact on a horse, i don't know.

I'm riding four young'uns at the moment, all are similar types (tb x native), and all approach the contact completely differently. one i don't think i could get behind the vertical even if i wanted to, another i'm trying to get to stretch out as chin to chest is his go-to position if he's tense or tired. so although i don't intend to ride him btv, it happens!


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## Fellewell (9 January 2014)

oldie48 said:



			I love these threads, put up a picture of a horse and we're free to pull it to pieces. I think i must be missing the vids of the pretty grey horse who was consistently btv, sorry can't remember his name! Not wishing to stir things up but I understood ideally the horse should be slightly IFV with the poll the highest point in a test. clearly the poll won't be the highest point when when working long and low etc but I thought the nose should still be slightly IFV. Am I wrong? I'm sure someone will put me straight about this.
		
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As requested; a pretty grey horse 


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mZ0vPX9QGqc


Enjoy.


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## Cortez (9 January 2014)

Yes, I completely agree that fashions change - would the horses winning 20 or 30 years ago (Rembrandt, Ahlerich, Granat, Dutch Courage, Marzog, etc.) win today?


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## Cortez (9 January 2014)

Fellewell said:



			As requested; a pretty grey horse 


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mZ0vPX9QGqc


Enjoy.
		
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Yes, lovely Doma Vaquera; that's not dressage.


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## Penumbra (9 January 2014)

As someone who studies animal welfare with a view to going into research, I don't really see how you could meaningfully "prove" that BTV training was bad/good for the horse physically or otherwise in the long run. Even if you ran it as controlled experiement, I think differences in conformation/tack fit/accidental injury/illness as well as lots of other variables through the horse's lifetime would have just as much of an influence on the eventual outcome for the horse as one particular type of training. The experiment would also be prohibitively expensive to run, and I can't think of anyone who would want to fund it! 

With research into privately owned animals there would be far too much difference in the way each horse was kept and ridden to get any sort of meaningful result. 

I do think that sometimes the discussion of "BTV" as a welfare issue to an extent is somewhat distracting from the far more real welfare issues facing many horses (and of course other animals) in the UK at the moment. 

That is of course seperate to the discussion of whether it's useful/good as a training aid. I do agree that the photo in the op is not one I would chose to show off a young horse I was producing. I have spent time riding a small/light connemarraXarab who had been taught to go in a certain way which included being btv for the show ring. I have to say it was very disconcerting feeling like there was very little in front of me at times. It worked though because he had been successful at county level, if not higher. However, I don't think anyone produces their dressage horses for that kind of action.


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## Fellewell (10 January 2014)

Cortez said:



			Yes, lovely Doma Vaquera; that's not dressage.
		
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Surely the root of all dressage is in working equitation?


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## TarrSteps (10 January 2014)

Fellewell said:



			Surely the root of all dressage is in working equitation?
		
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Based on what reasoning? Isn't Working Equitation as a discipline about 10 years old? My understanding is it's basically an expanded, intentional version/conglomeration of what the Americans call Working/Reined Cow Horse competitions, to test the various stock working systems (and show off the traditional costumes).


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## Patterdale (10 January 2014)

TarrSteps said:



			Based on what reasoning? Isn't Working Equitation as a discipline about 10 years old? My understanding is it's basically an expanded, intentional version/conglomeration of what the Americans call Working/Reined Cow Horse competitions, to test the various stock working systems (and show off the traditional costumes).
		
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It's much older than that, originates with Iberian horses


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## Patterdale (10 January 2014)

Now, after reading through all of this, I have to ask again - 

DID ANYONE ACTUALLY SEE THE ARTICLE IN QUESTION!?

If you did - you can't POSSIBLY say that it was a responsible article promoting good horsemanship? It made a few jaws drop on my yard!


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## Fellewell (10 January 2014)

TarrSteps said:



			Based on what reasoning? Isn't Working Equitation as a discipline about 10 years old? My understanding is it's basically an expanded, intentional version/conglomeration of what the Americans call Working/Reined Cow Horse competitions, to test the various stock working systems (and show off the traditional costumes).
		
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Not heard of Xenophon then?


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## Wheels (10 January 2014)

Was he not Greek military?


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## TarrSteps (10 January 2014)

Fellewell said:



			Not heard of Xenophon then?
		
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I have a passing familiarity but have not read his thoughts on working cattle. 

Seriously, read the guidelines for the discipline - they are quite clear that it is a competition to test the training and skills of stock horses from the various Spanish/Portugese/Iberian and derived systems.

I get that you are making a connection to the martial and then largely exhibition oriented schools of training in the French Light and Iberian traditions but that isn't what Working Equitation seeks to test. It's also only tangentially connect to the Modern German Competitive School, which is what we call "dressage" now, as Haute Ecole doesn't figure that prominently anymore outside of exhibition (which, to be fair, was what dressage was until recently). Working Equitation is, in origin at least, more in line with rodeo - cowboy competiions! 

They are all related, of course, but that is a bit like saying humans have evolved from chimps because they have similar DNA. Same root, different branches. 

Xenophon has lots of interesting ideas, many of them still pertinent today. Given his thoughts on things like bitting, though, I'm not sure how well he'd fit into the modern competitive scene.


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## TarrSteps (10 January 2014)

Patterdale said:



			Now, after reading through all of this, I have to ask again - 

DID ANYONE ACTUALLY SEE THE ARTICLE IN QUESTION!?

If you did - you can't POSSIBLY say that it was a responsible article promoting good horsemanship? It made a few jaws drop on my yard!
		
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Nope, I have not. So I have not technically discussed the OP's question. But I have quite enjoyed the tangential discussion - that's what I like about forums, scope for exploration!


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## oldie48 (10 January 2014)

Thanks, that's kind of you. Not the one I was thinking of but very interesting. I'm not a huge fan of Andulusians (sorry you Andulusian fans but we all have our preferences) I think they CAN look a bit shuffley behind but I think it possibly demonstrates that different conformation leads to different ways of going, so if big moving WBs are the gold standard, that's going to influence how judges mark. My (now retired) TB was active and correct but some judges loathed him, I was actually placed first and last in two tests on the same day by different judges (think the test with the lower mark was actually marginally better). My WB sometimes gets much better marks than we deserve because he's built for the job and looks the part and some judges miss the fact that despite his lovely paces, he's actually behind the leg! Sorry gone off on a bit of a tangent here!



Fellewell said:



			As requested; a pretty grey horse 


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mZ0vPX9QGqc


Enjoy.
		
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## Cortez (10 January 2014)

Fellewell said:



			Surely the root of all dressage is in working equitation?
		
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No, it's not. And Doma Vaquera is not Working Equitation either. Doma Vaquera is a separate competitive discipline based on the training of horses for working cattle, specifically Spanish fighting bulls, and it's not all that terribly old as a competition either - maybe 30 years? There is also a pairs event called Derribo y Accosto which consists of pushing a cow over with a stick (you'd have to be Spanish to appreciate that one 

The root of what we call dressage is in court riding (or showing off your gentlemanly riding skills in front of the king), from the 16th - 18th centuries and there are several original texts from these times (what I think of as classical riding), authors such as Pluvinel, the Duke of Newcastle, de la Gueriniere, Gervaise Markham, et al. And at the basis of that is training for the cavalry (Xenophon).

What is interesting when researching historical texts and illustrations (which is what I do) is that probably the majority of horses are shown behind the vertical, extremely collected over the hocks.


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## TarrSteps (10 January 2014)

Cortez said:



			No, it's not. And Doma Vaquera is not Working Equitation either. Doma Vaquera is a separate competitive discipline based on the training of horses for working cattle, specifically Spanish fighting bulls, and it's not all that terribly old as a competition either - maybe 30 years? There is also a pairs event called Derribo y Accosto which consists of pushing a cow over with a stick (you'd have to be Spanish to appreciate that one 

The root of what we call dressage is in court riding (or showing off your gentlemanly riding skills in front of the king), from the 16th - 18th centuries and there are several original texts from these times (what I think of as classical riding), authors such as Pluvinel, the Duke of Newcastle, de la Gueriniere, Gervaise Markham, et al. And at the basis of that is training for the cavalry (Xenophon).

What is interesting when researching historical texts and illustrations (which is what I do) is that probably the majority of horses are shown behind the vertical, extremely collected over the hocks.
		
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That is what I find most interesting about the "classical = correct" camp and the idea that is somehow connected to having horses positioned in front of the vertical as a standard. You only have to read a bit and look at a few etchings to see that wasn't the ideal at all! 

Ditto the idea that "lightness" is a function of weak - or humane, depending on who you ask - riding. I think a lot of people who view the past as a rosy place where no one was ever hard on horses might get a shock if they were actually dropped into it!


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## Cortez (10 January 2014)

TarrSteps said:



			That is what I find most interesting about the "classical = correct" school and the idea that is somehow connected to having horses positioned in front of the vertical as a standard. You only have to read a bit and look at a few etchings to see that wasn't the ideal at all!
		
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Ha, ha, yes! And where did this "classical = all nicey-nicey" idea come from? Actually reading some texts about training would make most peoples hair curl! Fancy working a horse blindfolded, do we? Or in a 12" shank curb?


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## TarrSteps (10 January 2014)

I've edited. . .snap.


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## Fellewell (11 January 2014)

Cortez said:



			No, it's not. And Doma Vaquera is not Working Equitation either. Doma Vaquera is a separate competitive discipline based on the training of horses for working cattle, specifically Spanish fighting bulls, and it's not all that terribly old as a competition either - maybe 30 years? There is also a pairs event called Derribo y Accosto which consists of pushing a cow over with a stick (you'd have to be Spanish to appreciate that one 

The root of what we call dressage is in court riding (or showing off your gentlemanly riding skills in front of the king), from the 16th - 18th centuries and there are several original texts from these times (what I think of as classical riding), authors such as Pluvinel, the Duke of Newcastle, de la Gueriniere, Gervaise Markham, et al. And at the basis of that is training for the cavalry (Xenophon).

What is interesting when researching historical texts and illustrations (which is what I do) is that probably the majority of horses are shown behind the vertical, extremely collected over the hocks.
		
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You are using the term 'working equitation' as a proper noun and I am using it as a common noun (should I say adjective and noun). Therefore, as the latter it can cover all disciplines at all levels. Even a Shire, arguably the ultimate working horse, can perform dressage movements, the haze of feather is quite something to behold. I agree, the basis for this training is in the military, Xenophon's book is available in English and well worth a read, but on the subject of books: 'Many pens are broken, and seas of ink consumed, to describe things that never happened'.


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