# Is horse theft criminal or not?



## EmmasMummy (19 January 2012)

As it seems that its not now and the police do not want to deal with it.  Why is that. 

It was a crime 200 years ago......so why not now?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-13412069


----------



## Archangel (19 January 2012)

I thought this exact thing today whilst reading about all the horses missing on loan.


----------



## EmmasMummy (19 January 2012)

It just makes no sense.  It is really like the police do not care, or want to handle anything to do with horses.   And of course, it would not get any public interest as its deemed an "elitist" hobby.  But surely with the case of that showjumper, was that not deemed criminal? 

Maybe the value of the horse or the status of the owner does have something to do with it.  

The law really is screwy some times.


----------



## flyingfeet (19 January 2012)

Its partly our fault 

Even 100 years ago horse would not have been "loaned" they were either sold or given away 

Now because we are more caring (or less practical) we have more horses hanging around without purpose and loaning is commonplace

Its very hard for the police when its not straight theft


----------



## OWLIE185 (19 January 2012)

If a horse is stolen then this is a criminal act.
If a horse is loaned then any issues relating to this are a civil matter.
If it can be demonstrated that the loaned horse has been sold by the loanee when the written agreement clearly states that the lonees are not allowed to sell or loan the horse then a criminal offence has been commited.
If you intend to loan a horse then the first thing you do is to have it freezemarked on it's shoulder so that it can be identified by anyone.  Also ensure that it is micro-chipped and that you serach for any other micro-chips as several horses have more than one micro-chip.
Before loaning the horse ensure that you see the copy of the passport, driving licence, rates bill and an electricity or gas utility bill of the person loaning it and photocopy them.  Also ensure that you continue to pay for the insurance of the horse and that you have the contact details of their vet.
Any loan agreement must be checked by a specialist Equine Solicitor prior to two copies being issued and both parties signing and dating each of both copies.  One copy to be retained by the loners and the others by the loanees.  
Also ensure that the horses record on www.nedonline is ammended to 'Horse Currently Loaned Out and can not be sold or loaned again'.  Also ensure that the Freezemark and Microchip numbers are updated.  
It is also advisable that the horse is vetted prior to being loaned out so that it's current medical condition can be independantly verified.
A reference also from the lonees vet is useful to demonstrate their integrity.


----------



## EmmasMummy (19 January 2012)

OWLIE185 said:



			If a horse is stolen then this is a criminal act.
If a horse is loaned then any issues relating to this are a civil matter.
If it can be demonstrated that the loaned horse has been sold by the loanee when the written agreement clearly states that the lonees are not allowed to sell or loan the horse then a criminal offence has been commited.
If you intend to loan a horse then the first thing you do is to have it freezemarked on it's shoulder so that it can be identified by anyone.  Also ensure that it is micro-chipped and that you serach for any other micro-chips as several horses have more than one micro-chip.
Before loaning the horse ensure that you see the copy of the passport, driving licence, rates bill and an electricity or gas utility bill of the person loaning it and photocopy them.  Also ensure that you continue to pay for the insurance of the horse and that you have the contact details of their vet.
Any loan agreement must be checked by a specialist Equine Solicitor prior to two copies being issued and both parties signing and dating each of both copies.  One copy to be retained by the loners and the others by the loanees.  
Also ensure that the horses record on www.nedonline is ammended to 'Horse Currently Loaned Out and can not be sold or loaned again'.  Also ensure that the Freezemark and Microchip numbers are updated.  
It is also advisable that the horse is vetted prior to being loaned out so that it's current medical condition can be independantly verified.
A reference also from the lonees vet is useful to demonstrate their integrity.
		
Click to expand...

Are there certain terms that must be present in the agreement to make it legal?  I remember being told that the BHS one that is exampled on their webpage, is not legally binding and is really only usefull as a reference.


----------



## DollyDolls (19 January 2012)

EmmasMummy said:



			Are there certain terms that must be present in the agreement to make it legal?  I remember being told that the BHS one that is exampled on their webpage, is not legally binding and is really only usefull as a reference.
		
Click to expand...


This type of document is relevant in civil claims.

It does not stand up to criminal, as there must be proof that 
AT THE TIME of taking the horse
the person taking it was doing so DISHONESTLY
because they knew it STILL BELONGED to another
then took it away and made sure that the original owner was PERMANENTLY deprived of it.

Such a document could become a type of fraud, if the person had given false details on it (hence why you check against other legal docs such as passport / driving licence)

It is also the original owner which MUST keep in contact with the loanee & records kept.  

I would never give my diamond ring to a stranger, so why is your horse any different?

--------------
Can people please make the distinction between stealing horses out of fields and those that go missing out on loan.


----------



## soulfull (19 January 2012)

It is not the Police's fault, that is the way the law is

 I think it would be the same if you loaned someone your car and they didn't return it  civil claim

Now someone who had no connection with the horse taking it, now that is obviously theft


----------



## Kat (19 January 2012)

That is exactly the point, a horse that is stolen is very much a crime and will be treated as such by the police and given the same priority as if you reported the theft of your car, push bike, or diamond ring. 

A horse missing on loan is not necessarily stolen, and these can quickly become more a dispute between to people as to who is the rightful owner rather than a theft situation. That is a civil matter. The person in possession of the horse has authority to have possession of the horse but the terms of that authority are in dispute. It is probably more like a squatting issue than a theft issue. 

The police would be equally disinterested if you went to them and told them you had lent your diamond ring or pushbike to your friend and they had failed to return it (cars are a bit different due to issues of insurance and V5 etc). 

The best thing you can do to protect yourself is make sure you have as much evidence as possible that you own your horse, have as much evidence as possible as to the identity of the loaner and get any loan agreement checked by a lawyer before allowing your horse out on loan. If your horse is worth a few thousand spending a couple of hundred quid getting a loan agreement checked over is well worth doing.


----------



## Kat (19 January 2012)

Cartman said:



			Why do I get the feeling this is one of those hopeless ones? If the above were true, the world would be dandy. Unfortunately when it comes to non-serious crime such as theft, the police response is proportional to profits.
		
Click to expand...

so what are you saying that horse theft should be prioritised above other crimes? I think it is fair enough for thefts generally to be treated the same whatever the item stolen is and I think that is probably a fair representation of the current situation. 

Where should it come in the list of priorities? I would have thought that people would think it was fair for the police to prioritise "serious crime" above other crime. They have limited resources and of course will focus more on crimes against the person than crimes against property, in my mind that is a reasonable response. 

When you add in the difficulties of evidence in many horse thefts it is hardly surprising that the police often seem to accept defeat easily. The trouble with theft of just about any property is that the police find the item and the person who has stolen denies that it is the stolen article and says they bought it second hand of "some bloke" and it becomes a nightmare to prove otherwise.


----------



## EmmasMummy (19 January 2012)

Kat said:



			so what are you saying that horse theft should be prioritised above other crimes? I think it is fair enough for thefts generally to be treated the same whatever the item stolen is and I think that is probably a fair representation of the current situation. 

Where should it come in the list of priorities? I would have thought that people would think it was fair for the police to prioritise "serious crime" above other crime. They have limited resources and of course will focus more on crimes against the person than crimes against property, in my mind that is a reasonable response. 

When you add in the difficulties of evidence in many horse thefts it is hardly surprising that the police often seem to accept defeat easily. The trouble with theft of just about any property is that the police find the item and the person who has stolen denies that it is the stolen article and says they bought it second hand of "some bloke" and it becomes a nightmare to prove otherwise.
		
Click to expand...


I do agree.......there is no way that theft should  be prioritised over other crimes, as whilst not nice I do not think it is serious, unless say it is of a large amount or stripping someone of their lively hood or causes others harm etc.  I do appreciate it is not always clear cut - I had a MTB stolen in 2008 - in 2009 on the way home we came across a yob on my bike, which OH then removed from him and took straight to the police station..........where it stayed for a week until I got all the reg numbers from the bike shop to prove it was mine.  I did feel for the poor boy that had it as he says he paid for it....but only 10% of what I had paid.


----------



## millimoo (19 January 2012)

Just to throw another angle into the mix...

This thread started following a stolen horse thread. 
The horse was loaned in good faith, and the owner kept in regular touch.
The horse was stolen / became a welfare case (gets a bit unclear at this point), and has seen it now pass through a dealer with a false description, and incorrect passport in quite a short space of time.

Surely the fact the horse has been sold as younger, and larger than it actually is also raises questions as to the credibility of all involved.
What is the point of passports if no action is taken to deal with this???
I have been pulled over in the horsebox by the Police to check passports, and see whats in the back??? clearly a pointless exercise if they are then going to do knack all about it!!!

As a business does the Dealer involved have a responsibility, as both they and the new owner are in receipt of stolen goods?


----------



## pricklyflower (26 January 2012)

Brilliant! Keep us updated!


----------

