# Horse Ulcer diagnosis - which feeds are best?



## nicky_jakey (30 August 2017)

Hello all,
My horse has just been diagnosed with grade 3 stomach ulcers. 
His usual regime is living out as much as possible. He comes in for a bit of hay, but until late December, is predominantly out in the field. 
He is currently fed Fast Fibre, Thunderbrookes Herbal Chaff, Micronised Linseed, Copra and NAF Pink Powder. 
He is 'feed sensitive' - hence only being on a fairly basic but Fibre (& oil) based feed. 
The vet hospital have suggested I look at Ulcer Specific feeds - hence wondering if anyone has any knowledge? Or recommendations? 
Work wise he's been eventing at 90 / 100cm level.
He will be coming home with a course of GastroGuard & re-scoped in 4 weeks. 

Any advice welcomed !


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## Goldenstar (30 August 2017)

I don't know what's in the herbal chaff but on the face of it I would amazed that diet Is causing this horses ulcers .
I feed my horses straights but if I had to choose a bagged feed I would use Saracens relieve or Gain freedom mix .
I personally think ulcers are very very often secondary to something else in my horses case it turned out he had a tumour on his small intestine.


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## nicky_jakey (30 August 2017)

Hi Goldenstar, 
Many thanks for your reply. 
I know - I'm surprised that its caused him problems..... But he coliced (spasmodic) 3 times. One at Aston le Walls, during an event, then the following day and the third episode yesterday (on our way to Tweseldown XC schooling). We didn't make Tweseldown, but had to re route straight to the vet hospital  . They really didn't suspect ulcers - but ruled everything else out, so scoped this morning. Hence, just finding the ulcers. They believe that this is currently an 'acute on chronic' flare.......so he's had them for some time . I'm really surprised, as are they - but at least we have a diagnosis, so can work from this now! 
He 'fizzes' easily on feeds, so I have to be really careful. Hence his fibre based current feed. E.G. I tried him on Topspec light balancer in the past & this didn't work! Hence using Pink Powder as the 'balancer'.
How do you find the Saracen ReLieve? Is it heating in any way? 
Also, how did you eventually get the diagnosis of the tumour in the small intestine? The vet hospital ultra sound scanned him yesterday (as well as tubing & rectal exam), and nothing found. But I realise these things can be very hard to find!


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## Michen (30 August 2017)

Sounds like the colic is Linked to stress (travelling/competing?) and perhaps the ulcers are the route of that too. Sometimes they can seem totally unstressed but it manifests in different ways. 




nicky_jakey said:



			Hi Goldenstar, 
Many thanks for your reply. 
I know - I'm surprised that its caused him problems..... But he coliced (spasmodic) 3 times. One at Aston le Walls, during an event, then the following day and the third episode yesterday (on our way to Tweseldown XC schooling). We didn't make Tweseldown, but had to re route straight to the vet hospital  . They really didn't suspect ulcers - but ruled everything else out, so scoped this morning. Hence, just finding the ulcers. They believe that this is currently an 'acute on chronic' flare.......so he's had them for some time . I'm really surprised, as are they - but at least we have a diagnosis, so can work from this now! 
He 'fizzes' easily on feeds, so I have to be really careful. Hence his fibre based current feed. E.G. I tried him on Topspec light balancer in the past & this didn't work! Hence using Pink Powder as the 'balancer'.
How do you find the Saracen ReLieve? Is it heating in any way? 
Also, how did you eventually get the diagnosis of the tumour in the small intestine? The vet hospital ultra sound scanned him yesterday (as well as tubing & rectal exam), and nothing found. But I realise these things can be very hard to find!
		
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## ihatework (30 August 2017)

I'd keep him on his current feed, it's ulcer friendly and unlikely to be the cause of your ulcers IMO.


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## nicky_jakey (30 August 2017)

Many thanks both. 
He outwardly seems very Un stressed!!
I've had him since 4 & he's 9 this year.... Always been at our current yard, always done some eventing. Literally nothing's changed! That's why I can't understand it  
Saddles are all routinely checked, he has regular physio (ACPAT). 
I'm wondering what the cause could be...??


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## Theocat (30 August 2017)

Has anything changed in the environment? A new field mate? Is he otherwise fit and well, no niggly hurty bits? They aren't gorging on hedgerow fruit or being fed with treats by walkers? I'm clutching at straws here!


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## fairyclare (30 August 2017)

I wouldn't change that diet (well I'd drop the FF but I'm not a fan of that) 

Have you investigated pain, I have found that actually ulcers are secondary to pain somewhere, even low grade. 
Sounds like it may be a long standing issue that has flair ups, perhaps due to increased pain or stress when travelling, tying in with when the colic episodes have occurred.


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## Welshie95 (30 August 2017)

Michen said:



			Sounds like the colic is Linked to stress (travelling/competing?) and perhaps the ulcers are the route of that too. Sometimes they can seem totally unstressed but it manifests in different ways.
		
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This. Also you say he comes in for a bit of hay, is this ad lib and can you put hay out in the field too? I'd change that and drop the workload and see if that helps.


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## nicky_jakey (30 August 2017)

Hello all, 
Thank you for your advice & thoughts. 
Pain wise - he sees the physio regularly, approx. every 6 /8 weeks. I trot him up for her & have him in circles so she can check how he's moving his back / legs etc. She has picked up on the odd irregularity (SIJ problem in the past - 2 years ago & was slight) so I do trust her eye. 
He also has lessons with a very experienced instructor - again her eye is superb & she'll stop a lesson if something is slightly off. She hasn't noticed / mentioned anything for a number of months. 
Otherwise - any idea of trying to find any mystery pain?! 
Normally he travels quiet as a lamb. He is honestly not a stress type. I've asked about 4 or 5 vets in the past to scope him (to rule ulcers out) & they've all refused.....saying he's not 'the type'. Clearly he is / was! I appreciate he was probably 'internalising' the pain / stress - hence the ulcers...? But how do I then help him to prevent them re-curring? Or to help clear them up currently? The vets are prescribing Gastro Guard - but I'm thinking more longer term..... Clearly something needs to change - but I'm just unsure as to what!!
Any other ideas & advice greatly appreciated


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## be positive (30 August 2017)

Does he eat well when traveling and at the events? is he given hay every day as part of his routine, the GG needs to go into an empty or almost empty stomach so if he were mine I might consider bringing him in every morning, giving the GG and leaving him in, if he is really happy to stay in, with a full net and see if that helps, it may be that being out on grass is not giving him enough fibre to line his stomach on a daily basis and that he requires long fibre to do that job, if he can stay out with adlib hay and will eat it that may help. 

The one I had here that I thought had ulcers, he scoped clear but there were some areas that may have been previously affected, had a slight change of routine which seemed to help, as well as daily hay and some alfalfa he was given a small feed before loading, on arrival and if there was a big gap he had another during the day as well as hay in front of him at all times at every event, he colicked once after xc before I increased his feeds.


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## nicky_jakey (30 August 2017)

Yes, he has good quality ad lib meadow hay in his stable. I normally feed it dry but the vets had recommended feeding it damp for the time being. 
He has one or two haynets for travelling & at events. I also take a bucket feed (fast fibre) with me to feed him after dressage & before jumping. 
The field is old dairy pasture, so could be quite rich. So the vet recommended muzzling overnight, which I had been doing after colic 1 & 2. 
So the plan (on his return tomorrow) was to leave him out overnight, in a grazing muzzle. Then bring him in first thing - starve him for an hour, give gastro guard. Then some hay & turn him back out again. 
The only think I've come across, is that I have him electrolytes before eventing the last time (2 weeks ago) so the first colic. I then gave him electrolytes in his feed before travelling yesterday. I've read that the electrolytes could cause a horse with ulcers to colic? 
If this is correct, I'm happy not to give him electrolytes...?? 
He has 1 teaspoon of salt per day. Perhaps he only needs this? Even if it's hot & he's competing?


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## nicky_jakey (30 August 2017)

PS we're not allowed to feed hay in the field. If the horses need hay, they have to come into their Stable.


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## dozzie (30 August 2017)

I am by no means an expert on ulcers but suspect my old horse may have had them well before we knew about them. If we took him anywhere he would go off his food. If he was stabled for more than a day he would have spasmodic colic. He lived out as a result. He was never a good doer. I found straights worked. Bran, oats, sugar beet, cooked linseed and cooked barley. But I also lunged him for 20-30 mins before putting him on the trailer/lorry to go anywhere. The result was that he was calmer. I never fed him on return home but got him out into the paddock immediately. No fuss just OUT! It was frowned upon but i knew him well enough. He wouldn't eat and would colic if in  so out he went. He would never eat a feed after a journey/day out. AFAIK there is nothing scientific in what I have said but it worked. He lived until he was 37 so I must have got something right. I would love to understand why the lungeing before travelling worked. I would love to understand why putting him out without a feed worked. It was advice from someone years ago but it really helped.


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## be positive (30 August 2017)

No idea if electrolytes can cause ulcers but they can certainly dehydrate a horse if they don't drink enough and that can cause colic, the problem with them living out is you have no control of how much they drink or when they last drank, a slight loss of fluids from sweating, having dry hay after having electrolytes could be enough to tip them over without any obvious signs of dehydration. 
I prefer to either give electrolytes every day or just the evening and next morning after an event, I have never given before going as they are unlikely to drink properly during a day out, it could be partly why he got colic but not why he has ulcers.


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## Goldenstar (30 August 2017)

FC  you asked how we found the tumour on my horse it was found on post mortem  .its an epically long tale but he was very grumpy and having bouts of abdominal pain I took the decision enough was enough it had been a year and half of very difficult care . 
I would be asking your vet about the new injectable proton pump inhibitors gives you three months cover for one jab for managing him on going .


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## Pearlsasinger (31 August 2017)

I would take him off the PinkPowder, asap.  It has all sorts of rubbish in it, which he is probably struggling to digest, otherwise, his diet sounds good.  I have found that Aloe Vera juice mitigates the acid in the stomach.


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## nicky_jakey (31 August 2017)

Thank you everybody - lots of really good thoughts and advice! 
He's been on the Pink Powder for about 4 years. Quite happy to take him off it - if someone can recommend a better alternative? Perhaps one of the Pro Earth 'balancers'?


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## Goldenstar (31 August 2017)

nicky_jakey said:



			Thank you everybody - lots of really good thoughts and advice! 
He's been on the Pink Powder for about 4 years. Quite happy to take him off it - if someone can recommend a better alternative? Perhaps one of the Pro Earth 'balancers'?
		
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I would try Eugsin slh as a gastric health supplement .
What advice have you been giving about dosing the horse with gastroguard are you doing the restricted hay from midnight and the early morning dosing on an empty stomach because research shows that does give the best results .
Be prepared for a month not to be long enough that's why I would look at the injectable pp inhibitors.
My horse had a perfect stomach at PM despite having extensive Danilon and stronger pain relief in the last two months of his life so you can get out the other side of this .


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## Pearlsasinger (31 August 2017)

nicky_jakey said:



			Thank you everybody - lots of really good thoughts and advice! 
He's been on the Pink Powder for about 4 years. Quite happy to take him off it - if someone can recommend a better alternative? Perhaps one of the Pro Earth 'balancers'?
		
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It depends why you are feeding the PP.  It isn't sold to do the same job as the ProEarth balancers.  It is only marketted as being good for the stomach, which I'm afraid, ime, it isn't.  That is what I use Aloe Vera for.  The ProEarth balancers are sold to provide vits & mins, not to soothe stomach.


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## PoppyAnderson (31 August 2017)

Pearlsasinger said:



			I would take him off the PinkPowder, asap.  It has all sorts of rubbish in it, which he is probably struggling to digest, otherwise, his diet sounds good.  I have found that Aloe Vera juice mitigates the acid in the stomach.
		
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Agree. Remove the PP ASAP (it's full of rubbish) and you could try replacing the Fast Fibre too with speedibeet possibly.


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## SEL (31 August 2017)

You mention that you've asked your vet about ulcers in the past - what symptoms were showing for you to ask?


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## nicky_jakey (31 August 2017)

Hi sel,
He's always been 'girthy' and sensitive to brush. 
But no other symptoms.


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## Pearlsasinger (31 August 2017)

PoppyAnderson said:



			Agree. Remove the PP ASAP (it's full of rubbish) and you could try replacing the Fast Fibre too with speedibeet possibly.
		
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I found years ago that my ulcer symptoms horse went footy on PP years ago.  Then just a few months ago, the same thing happened when I introduced speedibeet to the same mare who now is being treated for Cushings.  Both things also affected her field companion, who is a totally different type, so I would be wary of Speedibeet.  I was very suprised as I have given it to other horses in the past with good results.  I began to wonder if more sugar had been left in.


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## AnShanDan (31 August 2017)

You didn't say where the ulcers are in the stomach? Treatment and management is really dependant on whether they are glandular or not, in any case presume horse will also be on sucralfate? Ulcers heal a lot faster with it added.

For giving GG, you want to do it onto a relatively empty stomach, and then wait an hour or so before reintroducing feed, so before riding is good.


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## nicky_jakey (31 August 2017)

The vet just said they were 'stomach ulcers' grade 3. They're supposedly doing a written report, so I'm hoping that more detail is in there or I'll have to call them up to check. 
They've advised to give the gastro guard on an empty stomach. I've now got him back home, so he's out tonight as usual, but with his grazing muzzle on. He can then stand in for (vet stated) 30 mins in an empty stable. I can then syringe the GG in. Apparently he can then have hay afterwards? I'm not sure how soon after? But guessing 10 to 15 mins or so? 
They've also told me to ride him again - but does he not need some time for the ulcers to heal?? 
The veg also advised me to add liquid oil to his feed - I think they said sofa oil, but could've been corn oil? 
Personally, I thought that soya was inflammatory? So slightly confused by that?!


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## AnShanDan (1 September 2017)

This is a really good, factual article by a vet whose specialty is ulcers:

http://www.bwequinevets.co.uk/187/equine-gastric-ulcers-explained-specialist/


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## nicky_jakey (1 September 2017)

Thank you, really helpful !


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