# Fit vs fat for showing



## Lydiamae (18 May 2017)

I currently show my trad boy inhand, aiming for ridden at the start of next season when he is a 5 yr old.

I have seen lots of different horses and ponies in shows, ridden and in hand, who do awfully well, but to me the look fat? My boy isn't fat, I am actually super pleased with his weight at the moment, he looks well but not fat. I am too paranoid about laminitis catching us! I keep him fit, he has varies light work 4 or 5 times a week and is fed saracen show improver cubes, hi fi original and general purpose supplement with adlib hay.

Please describe to me how you see show horses. Should they be fit or fat? What is the difference in a judges eyes? Can they be both?

I want to continue to do as well as we have been locally, at county, but I don't want judges comments to say he lacks condition, when he is a body score of 3 out of 5.

Thanks in advance


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## be positive (18 May 2017)

The one here is worked 5 or 6 days a week, is fed a handful of chop, soaked hay and a few blades of grass if he can find them, he is not yet fully fit but will be fit enough to do a ode by mid season, they have to be fit enough to show themselves well in the ring, canter and gallop without falling in a heap so the best are fitter than they may seem at first glance, good muscle tone and a well built up topline is what is desirable not blubber and a decent judge can tell the difference.


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## ihatework (18 May 2017)

Of course they should be fit and not fat. But an individuals interpretation of what constitutes those criteria vary wildly.

I can guarantee you that some top class show horses I would class as obese, but their producers will swear they are fit and in show condition!

ETA: it is possible to 'condition' a horse that is body score 3 - but that comes from laying down muscle, which does take time, and on a 5yo just think long term


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## amandaco2 (18 May 2017)

ihatework said:



			Of course they should be fit and not fat. But an individuals interpretation of what constitutes those criteria vary wildly.

I can guarantee you that some top class show horses I would class as obese, but their producers will swear they are fit and in show condition!

ETA: it is possible to 'condition' a horse that is body score 3 - but that comes from laying down muscle, which does take time, and on a 5yo just think long term
		
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Agreed!


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## catroo (18 May 2017)

It is possible to be fat and fit, and in my opinion lots of hunters and cobs in the show ring are. Fit enough to do the job well but carrying more weight than I'd like to see.

Not all are like this and I do think it's getting better over time. 

Concentrate on building good muscle tone and feed quality feed in proportion to the work load and horses condition.

Pop a picture up and I'm sure people would advise on weight


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## JFTDWS (18 May 2017)

catroo said:



			It is possible to be fat and fit, and in my opinion lots of hunters and cobs in the show ring are. Fit enough to do the job well but carrying more weight than I'd like to see.

Not all are like this and I do think it's getting better over time.
		
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Indeed - I think many of the horses in the ring are fit enough to show well enough, but are grossly obese.  It's disgraceful and I am saddened every time I see these horses winning.

That said, I am increasingly seeing ponies placing and winning in big classes and being surprised that they look really rather good.  I do think the tides are turning.


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## Elf On A Shelf (18 May 2017)

Ah now see your showing at local level where the majority of people think their horses just need to be as fat as possible! The higher up the showing ladder you go the more you realise that yes the horses are very well covered but there is also a good TopLine and a decent set of muscles underneath. 

That's the difference between pro's and amatuers.


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## JFTDWS (18 May 2017)

It's the lard coatings over the muscle of [some of] the pro horses I find most disappointing, EKW.  They really ought to know better and set a better example...


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## ester (18 May 2017)

Fit, because usually there is more important stuff I am doing than showing on the side and well when you plan on keeping them forever them being healthy is more important than what anyone thinks.

Fwiw no one has ever suggested my fit welsh with ribs showing needed to put on any weight and I would also say of what I have seen recently a lot is actually pretty good these days, natives have definitely improved at least. I do think people get told to add weight but if the judge actually looked at what they were looking at little more they might see that the horse actually just doesn't structurally have the depth say a good cob would have, yes you can go some way to generate it but probably best not to . A friends young pony is an excellent example, he looked well hench shown as a 2/3yo, as a 5yo he really is anything but!

EKW why do the decent set of muscles have to be underneath much?


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## JFTDWS (18 May 2017)

I've been told to put weight on F before, ester   I've also had other - imo better - judges who've said he's fine at a lighter weight than those who've told him to put weight on.  I roll my eyes and do my own thing...  And rarely stray into the show ring anyway!


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## cundlegreen (18 May 2017)

Don't get me started on this, especially the show cobs! However, I've been doing RIHS workers this season with my little mare, who looks in perfect "show" condition, ie, plenty of fat on her. However, she is out eventing, and won her ON section inside the time recently, so is plenty fit enough. She always looks a bit of a porker!


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## only_me (18 May 2017)

Tbh my stance has changed over the past year. Having started running to loose weight yet not as much as wanted I've become what I've always feared. A fit, fat runner!! 

If you watch marathons or half marathons every runner is fit - but vary in size. Some are sticks (tbs) and some are significantly rounder (cobs).  

I think majority of show cobs are just that - fit fat runners. They might be carrying a bit extra pounds but still do the distance


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## Nici (18 May 2017)

only_me said:



			Tbh my stance has changed over the past year. Having started running to loose weight yet not as much as wanted I've become what I've always feared. A fit, fat runner!! 

If you watch marathons or half marathons every runner is fit - but vary in size. Some are sticks (tbs) and some are significantly rounder (cobs).  

I think majority of show cobs are just that - fit fat runners. They might be carrying a bit extra pounds but still do the distance 

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That's a great comparison! It comes down to metabolism then, I guess?


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## ihatework (18 May 2017)

Nici said:



			That's a great comparison! It comes down to metabolism then, I guess?
		
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Partly.
But also food, excessive rugging etc.
I would argue they are marathon runners though, maybe fit enough to lug their lard round a show ring but very few will be fit enough for a decent days work.

Now I don't have an issue with the natural fatties of the horse whose owners are aware and taking relevant management precautions. But I'm afraid in the showing world it appears much more acceptable to have a fat horse, and often encouraged.
Hopefully it's getting better.


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## conniegirl (18 May 2017)

ihatework said:



			Partly.
But also food, excessive rugging etc.
I would argue they are marathon runners though, maybe fit enough to lug their lard round a show ring but very few will be fit enough for a decent days work.

Now I don't have an issue with the natural fatties of the horse whose owners are aware and taking relevant management precautions. But I'm afraid in the showing world it appears much more acceptable to have a fat horse, and often encouraged.
Hopefully it's getting better.
		
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Perhaps you should look more closely at the hunting field. A lot of top show hunters and riding horses are taken hunting regularly. I know plenty of ponies who show and event (one even came second at Hoys)


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## AdorableAlice (18 May 2017)

be positive said:



			The one here is worked 5 or 6 days a week, is fed a handful of chop, soaked hay and a few blades of grass if he can find them, he is not yet fully fit but will be fit enough to do a ode by mid season, they have to be fit enough to show themselves well in the ring, canter and gallop without falling in a heap so the best are fitter than they may seem at first glance, good muscle tone and a well built up topline is what is desirable not blubber and a decent judge can tell the difference.
		
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Agreed, and here is one that was kept fit throughout his career.  He did medium dressage alongside his showing, loved his hacking and pleasure rides.  Was always turned out daily but was a bit of a wuss if it rained and would put himself in his shelter.  He was strappped almost daily and certainly April to October.  He thrived on haylage, spillers pony nuts, speedibeet and a cup of linseed plus plenty of work.


I enjoy a bit of showing, but I do think many are too heavy, especially the poorer quality horses who owners get fat to try and hide faults.  If the conformation is good and the movement straight they just need to be hard and topped not flabby and wheezing.


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## Tiddlypom (18 May 2017)

JFTD said:



			It's the lard coatings over the muscle of [some of] the pro horses I find most disappointing, EKW.  They really ought to know better and set a better example...
		
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Yep.


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## ihatework (18 May 2017)

conniegirl said:



			Perhaps you should look more closely at the hunting field. A lot of top show hunters and riding horses are taken hunting regularly. I know plenty of ponies who show and event (one even came second at Hoys)
		
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Last top horses I saw out hunting managed to ponce around at the meet and puff quietly at the back for an hour before going home. One of the countries top show producers


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## Elf On A Shelf (18 May 2017)

AdorableAlice said:








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The horse next to yours is a GIANT! The jockey must be getting deprived of oxygen that high up in the atmosphere!


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## ester (18 May 2017)

Of course it was only 2 days ago there was news from the university of birmingham that fat but fit is not really a thing. I think you may be fitter/active but still with long term health issues. 
quickest link that came up because I heard it.
https://www.theguardian.com/society...alth-no-such-thing-as-fat-but-fit-major-study

I am sometimes surprised how long some show horses are able to canter round a big ring, so they must have some fitness underneath, but again it is sometimes underneath too much.


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## Lydiamae (18 May 2017)

Thank you all so much and I am glad most of you are of the same opinion I am! As an owner, and indeed he is my great pal, I am ultimately more concerned with his long term health. He is fed a good quality and kept a healthy weight so I will just stick with what im doing and see where showing takes us!


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## conniegirl (18 May 2017)

ihatework said:



			Last top horses I saw out hunting managed to ponce around at the meet and puff quietly at the back for an hour before going home. One of the countries top show producers
		
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Well the ones I know will happily stay the day.

The pony that was 2nd at HOYS won a local ODE 2 weeks later, another pony I know came reserve champion at HOYS but 3 months earlier had done a 200 mile ride for charity!


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## honetpot (18 May 2017)

I sometimes show my Connemara young stock, just for the outing. M&M are notorious for placing fat ponies which are carrying far to much weight for their age. I had for more success in sport pony classes, I have been last in the breed class and first in a huge young stock class on the same day.
  I went to a R of R study day, one of the slides was a joint of beef with a layer of fat, to demonstrate the different the difference between muscle and fat.  The fat covers the muscle, any one who has seen a rare breed pig after slaughter would see that if you over feed you can have an inch and a half of fat covering its back, feeding more doesn't make muscle.


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## cundlegreen (19 May 2017)

ester said:



			Of course it was only 2 days ago there was news from the university of birmingham that fat but fit is not really a thing. I think you may be fitter/active but still with long term health issues. 
quickest link that came up because I heard it.
https://www.theguardian.com/society...alth-no-such-thing-as-fat-but-fit-major-study

I am sometimes surprised how long some show horses are able to canter round a big ring, so they must have some fitness underneath, but again it is sometimes underneath too much.
		
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Interestingly, when stripped off at a recent RIHS workers class, mine was the only one not to be sweating under her saddle, and this was on a chilly day. says it all really.....


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## Nici (19 May 2017)

AdorableAlice said:



			Agreed, and here is one that was kept fit throughout his career.  He did medium dressage alongside his showing, loved his hacking and pleasure rides.  Was always turned out daily but was a bit of a wuss if it rained and would put himself in his shelter.  He was strappped almost daily and certainly April to October.  He thrived on haylage, spillers pony nuts, speedibeet and a cup of linseed plus plenty of work.


I enjoy a bit of showing, but I do think many are too heavy, especially the poorer quality horses who owners get fat to try and hide faults.  If the conformation is good and the movement straight they just need to be hard and topped not flabby and wheezing.






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They both look great! Is yours the one on the right?


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## Elf On A Shelf (19 May 2017)

cundlegreen said:



			Interestingly, when stripped off at a recent RIHS workers class, mine was the only one not to be sweating under her saddle, and this was on a chilly day. says it all really.....
		
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That proves nothing really. I took a fully fit, running on Sunday, racehorse out for an hour's walking hack yesterday and he came back with sweat under his saddle and girth. Some horses are naturally warmer than others, some naturally colder.


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## AdorableAlice (19 May 2017)

Nici said:



			They both look great! Is yours the one on the right?
		
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Yes the bright bay middle weight.  The heavy is Robert Oliver's Loughern Dancing Lord and for the person that mentioned size, he is over 18 hands, mine looks tiny stood next him but is actually 17.2.

The lack of or excess of sweating mentioned can't really be used as a judge of fitness in my view.  Mental state has a lot to do with it as does way of going.  The horse in the picture was Mr.Cool throughout his career.  He might have a warm girth area on a hot day after he had done 10 laps of  a big ring like the Royal, and the only time he ever got hot was when bag pipes were playing in a bandstand alongside the ring, and even that was mental stress not physical.

As EKW says you can have a mega fit horse without a pinch of fat on him that will be awash with sweat and perhaps EKW can answer this one - why do some horses get so white with sweat when others who are just as hot not get lathered ?  My guess would be something to do with amounts of salts being lost ?


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## honetpot (19 May 2017)

AdorableAlice said:



			Agreed, and here is one that was kept fit throughout his career.  He did medium dressage alongside his showing, loved his hacking and pleasure rides.  Was always turned out daily but was a bit of a wuss if it rained and would put himself in his shelter.  He was strappped almost daily and certainly April to October.  He thrived on haylage, spillers pony nuts, speedibeet and a cup of linseed plus plenty of work.


I enjoy a bit of showing, but I do think many are too heavy, especially the poorer quality horses who owners get fat to try and hide faults.  If the conformation is good and the movement straight they just need to be hard and topped not flabby and wheezing.






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 I hope my yearling ends up half as good as one of these.


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## AdorableAlice (19 May 2017)

honetpot said:



			I hope my yearling ends up half as good as one of these.
		
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Of course your yearling will, because you will raise him properly with good manners and educated nicely.  Good luck for the future, there is nothing nicer than raising your own and not having to try to rectify other peoples mistakes.

ps, you have a good eye, the big horse is by the very best ID stallion that Ireland has produced in decades (the now late Crosstown Dancer) and the smaller one has very successful blood on the sire line (I Love You/ Alme Z).  Sadly the mould has gone for both of these horses.


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## Clodagh (19 May 2017)

Tiddlypom said:



			Yep.








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Appalling, just look at the fat round its sheath!


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## Clodagh (19 May 2017)

conniegirl said:



			Perhaps you should look more closely at the hunting field. A lot of top show hunters and riding horses are taken hunting regularly. I know plenty of ponies who show and event (one even came second at Hoys)
		
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A friend successfully showed and hunted her horse but she put a lot of effort into to piling on the pounds once March was over. He whipped in all winter, and was as fit as a butchers dog, but then had to be fatted up to enter the showring. Bizarre!


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## Cortez (19 May 2017)

There are still far too many obese horses in the show ring, despite judges being told to put them down the line. The last show I judged I had to fight my fellow judge tooth and nail to put up the best horse, which was also the slimmest/fittest. Some of the others were so fat they could hardly move, and the wheezing! To quote part of the conversation: other judge: "You can't put that up, it's not in show condition!" Me: "But it's the only one with decent movement/conformation/wind". OJ: "Oh well, if THAT'S what you're looking for....". Bit depressing, really.


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## minesadouble (19 May 2017)

Out of sheer curiosity which show was that Cortez?


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## Cortez (20 May 2017)

minesadouble said:



			Out of sheer curiosity which show was that Cortez?
		
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Hmm, not really prepared to say, but it was in Northern Ireland....


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## only_me (20 May 2017)

Cortez said:



			Hmm, not really prepared to say, but it was in Northern Ireland....
		
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I really really hope it wasn't the big one a week ago :O


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## Cortez (20 May 2017)

only_me said:



			I really really hope it wasn't the big one a week ago :O
		
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Nope  Although there were some porkers there too, and not only in the swine section!


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## amandaco2 (20 May 2017)

Clodagh said:



			Appalling, just look at the fat round its sheath!
		
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Poor thing


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## SO1 (21 May 2017)

It is really hard to keep weight off some native and cobs.

I don't think the problem is the judges it the owners and producer's responsibility to ensure the horse is a healthy weight.

I was at Royal Windsor on the Fri and Sat and yes I did see a lot of overweight horses and ponies but there are also a lot of overweight horses in the general horse population not just in the show ring. There is a strong possibility that some of these horse even if they were not in show homes they would still be overweight, unless they have very careful management as they were good doer types.

I think it is possible for a horse to be fit and fat, if you do increase the feed alongside exercise then the horse gets fitter but does not loose weight.

This is my 15 year old New Forest at Windsor on the Friday The judge commented that he looked very fit, I would have liked my pony to be a bit slimmer. (I don't do much showing though he is mainly a hacking pony and I have to work very hard to prevent him from becoming v fat)


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## ycbm (21 May 2017)

Was it deliberate to get the span of the bridge on the crest of his neck so perfectly? I'm guessing not, I don't think you could have got it deliberately ! 

Nice pony 

I think if show judges stopped placing fat horses they'd disappear from the show ring in less than one season. 

I know of show people who rug or stable all summer to stop the tips of the coat from bleaching out and give them s better chance of winning.  If they'll do that, then they'll slim the horse down for the same reason, I reckon.


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## only_me (21 May 2017)

ycbm said:



			I know of show people who rug or stable all summer to stop the tips of the coat from bleaching out and give them s better chance of winning.  If they'll do that, then they'll slim the horse down for the same reason, I reckon.
		
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Rugging a show horse in the summer to stop bleaching is normal, it would be unusual if you didn't tbh. Most would rain sheets or fly rugs I imagine. Don't see what's wrong with that tbh.


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## ycbm (21 May 2017)

only_me said:



			Rugging a show horse in the summer to stop bleaching is normal, it would be unusual if you didn't tbh. Most would rain sheets or fly rugs I imagine. Don't see what's wrong with that tbh.
		
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My point was that if a horse whose coat is bleached out will lose to a horse whose coat is not, and people take care to make sure that the coat does not bleach, then if a horse which is fat will lose to a horse which is not, people will rapidly make sure that they present horses which are not fat.


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## Lydiamae (22 May 2017)

ycbm said:



			My point was that if a horse whose coat is bleached out will lose to a horse whose coat is not, and people take care to make sure that the coat does not bleach, then if a horse which is fat will lose to a horse which is not, people will rapidly make sure that they present horses which are not fat.
		
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Wow, thank you all for your points! It is a lot of food for thought - but at the end of the day, I want my pony to be in a healthy condition over 'he would be better, fatter for the show ring. I, as a novice shower, have also learn a lot from you all, as I wasn't aware of the rugging for stopping sun bleaching. I like him to be naked when possible, as I always feel he becomes shinier. There isn't too much to bleach though as he is coloured.


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## iknowmyvalue (22 May 2017)

My friend shows her Connie stallion at a relatively high level, and she was telling me today that this weekend she was so disappointed to be placed 6th behind ponies "who could have been hippos". Her pony is absolutely gorgeous and I'd quite like to steal him


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## thegreenergrass (22 May 2017)

Lydiamae said:



			I want my pony to be in a healthy condition QUOTE]

Definitely, so glad you have said that.  I'm planning on doing a few in hand shows to get my pony out and about but there is no way I am sacrificing his health for a couple of rosettes. It's ridiculously selfish to specifically make your horse obese so you can win a few shows. I didn't believe it was true that a judge would place an obese horse over other fit horses till I watched an in hand show the other week. This was just a quiet local level show so not really a big deal. This poor horse was trudging round wheezing and by the end of it the sweat all over it from just 20 mins of walk and a couple of trots was insane. I was so hoping the judge was going to send out a message to the people there - well she did. She just sent the wrong one. She placed it first. 

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## Elf On A Shelf (22 May 2017)

I have seen plenty of horses placed down the line for being too fat. Usually with the owners coming out whinging that the judge didn't know what they were talking about, their horse isn't fat it's just in show condition! 

So yes, some judges, more and more btw, are cracking down and dropping obese horses but until the horse has been dropped more often than not owners just out t down to bad judging and won't show under that person again.


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## ester (22 May 2017)

There was a wocket woy at windsor/rihs?? last year where someone came out the ring and said judge said horse was too fat. I do think it is a work in progress but at least in progress. What gets said on the welsh groups still scares me though :eek3:.


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## Elf On A Shelf (22 May 2017)

ester said:



			There was a wocket woy at windsor/rihs?? last year where someone came out the ring and said judge said horse was too fat. I do think it is a work in progress but at least in progress. What gets said on the welsh groups still scares me though :eek3:.
		
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Yes it was at the Royal International and it was one of the most prolific show hunters in the country produced by one of the very best in the business! I couldn't stop laughing lol! And the judge was right! It was just a bit too fat, not as bad as some though!


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## Lydiamae (23 May 2017)

I have no idea if my attempt at attaching pictures has worked, I have never done it before  

But I have tried to attach a selection of photos of my pony from over the last 6 months. He is 14.2, and born 2013. No dob in his passport so he is either rising 4 or just turned 4, so lots of maturing and filling out left to do. 

For in hand showing, and for ridden showing next year, does he need more weight? I am aware he needs more muscle, but that is coming with work.


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## Cortez (23 May 2017)

No, he looks just fine. The muscling you are aware of.

I'm sure you know that dressage squares are not the thing for showing (don't know which you're at in the bottom pic, but looking smart .


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## Lydiamae (23 May 2017)

Cortez said:



			No, he looks just fine. The muscling you are aware of.

I'm sure you know that dressage squares are not the thing for showing (don't know which you're at in the bottom pic, but looking smart .
		
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Thanks Cortez, yes, muscle we are working on. He was at his first walk trot test in the bottom picture, hence the dressage square.


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## AdorableAlice (23 May 2017)

What a pretty cob, wishing you lots of luck and fun with him through the summer.  If you show him under saddle you could do with a more WH cut saddle to show his shoulder off.  GP's cover the shoulders.


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## Lydiamae (23 May 2017)

AdorableAlice said:



			What a pretty cob, wishing you lots of luck and fun with him through the summer.  If you show him under saddle you could do with a more WH cut saddle to show his shoulder off.  GP's cover the shoulders.
		
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Thank you AdorableAlice! I do intend to get him a WH when he has filled out a little but he has so much growing to do I have just bought 2nd hand from my saddler to tide us over!


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## Hormonal Filly (24 May 2017)

This is why I don't show, I always get told my Welsh is to thin but its just because he's fit and the correct muscled up shape. Lots of judges think a cresty neck and fat on the ass is a good thing, when its much nicer looking at muscle, makes me mad seeing a obese overweight welsh (or any pony) but mostly in ridden hunter, thats never seen a jump in its life or looks as if its even ridden, place in front of a horse thats clearly fit and knows what he's doing!


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