# Good manners of a Lady or Gentleman



## Judgemental (30 October 2015)

Country Life are currently running various pieces about the mark of modern Country Gentlemen and latterly a Lady.

We all have our ideas as to who and what fits the ideal Lady or Gentlemen in terms of Dress Code, Conversation, Mounted Appearance and general conduct.

No doubt all have likes and dislikes, such as the correct way to hold a gate open for a lady and  taking care not to allow a gate to slam, when going through simply relying upon 'gate please'.

The offering of the ubiquitous flask - that is a very interesting subject.

Just to name but a few points and of course class. 

I hear people screaming at their computers "there is no class distinction in the hunting field". Oh really!


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## Bernster (30 October 2015)

Now J what is this gender based nonsense you're referring to?  The age of chivalry is dead; long live the age of equality.  Now that could mean we all bash doors in each others' faces equally but I'd like to hope it means we all open doors for each other (now I'm getting metaphorical as well as literal, blimey).  But in terms of manners on the hunting field, surely it's flasks for everyone? ;-)

As for class distinction on the hunting field, do thrusters and numpties constitute a class?  If so, then I'm definitely in the lower orders!


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## Judgemental (31 October 2015)

Bernster said:



			Now J what is this gender based nonsense you're referring to?  The age of chivalry is dead; long live the age of equality.  Now that could mean we all bash doors in each others' faces equally but I'd like to hope it means we all open doors for each other (now I'm getting metaphorical as well as literal, blimey).  But in terms of manners on the hunting field, surely it's flasks for everyone? ;-)

As for class distinction on the hunting field, do thrusters and numpties constitute a class?  If so, then I'm definitely in the lower orders!
		
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So you pass your flask to all and sundry. 

The correct etiquette is to offer your flask to all those senior to you in the hunt hierarchy but not below. 

You may offer your flask to huntsman post 'home' having been blown.

Of course there are some hunts who do not encourage drinking whilst mounted.


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## Bernster (31 October 2015)

Ah well I'm lowly in the hierarchy so sounds like I've been inadvertently doing the right thing. Although my flask often has baileys in it which I'm sure is not considered an appropriate tipple. &#55357;&#56833;


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## Judgemental (31 October 2015)

Bernster said:



			Ah well I'm lowly in the hierarchy so sounds like I've been inadvertently doing the right thing. Although my flask often has baileys in it which I'm sure is not considered an appropriate tipple. &#65533;&#65533;
		
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Bailey's coffee liqueur!  There is no accounting for choice.

However neat Grouse or whisky mac or sloe gin is probably the more acceptable.

Cherry brandy is reasonable.


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## Alec Swan (1 November 2015)

Judgemental said:



			So you pass your flask to all and sundry. 

The correct etiquette is to offer your flask to all those senior to you in the hunt hierarchy but not below. 

You may offer your flask to huntsman post 'home' having been blown.

Of course there are some hunts who do not encourage drinking whilst mounted.
		
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Crikey!  

Line 1: May have finished with a question mark

Line 2: Snobery,  no more or less.

Line 3: Let's face it,  we can't have 'staff' drinking whilst we're paying them,  now can we?

Line 4: I don't ride to hounds,  but if I did,  they'd put up with me,  I'm sorry to tell you,  booze included.

The question of 'class' is one of interest,  as it seems to me that the word's all so often misused-or-misunderstood.  Good breeding and a display of good manners,  are as easily found in a dustman,  as a peer of the realm.  It's to do with our upbringing rather than,  exclusively,  our perceived station in life.

Field Sports,  as you are very well aware,  are a 'leveller'! 

Alec.


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## Goldenstar (2 November 2015)

Judgemental said:



			So you pass your flask to all and sundry. 

The correct etiquette is to offer your flask to all those senior to you in the hunt hierarchy but not below. 

You may offer your flask to huntsman post 'home' having been blown.

Of course there are some hunts who do not encourage drinking whilst mounted.
		
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Ohopps being doing that drinking thing wrong for years then says she cheerfully.
Here's the manners I think really matter .
Men and women are equal but help any any having trouble they will be helping you when it's your turn.
Always always always pause after crossing a difficult place like a very wet hole narrow gate to help the horse behind pass calmly .
Do your share of gate shutting .
Don't frighten children ( although IME it's the small children who frighten me )
If your horse stops don't make an almighty mess in front of the fence trying to get to go .
Be at the meet on time .
Those sorts of things matter.


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## Herne (2 November 2015)

Judgemental said:



			The correct etiquette is to offer your flask to all those senior to you in the hunt hierarchy but not below.
		
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I think the words "or equal" are missing from that sentence after "senior". That way every one should offer their flasks to the Masters at every available opportunity, and as everyone beneath the Mastership is equal, no one else needs to worry about it.

I always think that one of the things that demonstrates a gentleman is the ability to admit when one has been wrong...


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## fburton (2 November 2015)

Fascinating! What determines the hierarchy?


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## Fellewell (2 November 2015)

Herne said:



			I think the words "or equal" are missing from that sentence after "senior". That way every one should offer their flasks to the Masters at every available opportunity, and as everyone beneath the Mastership is equal, no one else needs to worry about it.

I always think that one of the things that demonstrates a gentleman is the ability to admit when one has been wrong...
		
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Sorry, I had to laugh at this. I think the gentleman's strapline would suggest that your words have, once again, fallen on deaf ears.


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## hackneylass2 (3 November 2015)

Yay for Alec and Goldenstar!!

I think flasks are best offered to those who have just had a very hairy moment!

Really, Country Life do write some pathetic crap. (and it seems to be lapped up by some)  'the mark of modern country gentlemen and ladies'  really? do they actually read what they write?


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## Herne (3 November 2015)

Fellewell said:



			Sorry, I had to laugh at this. I think the gentleman's strapline would suggest that your words have, once again, fallen on deaf ears.
		
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There's none so blind as those who refuse to see...


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## Judgemental (4 November 2015)

hackneylass2 said:



			Yay for Alec and Goldenstar!!

I think flasks are best offered to those who have just had a very hairy moment!

Really, Country Life do write some pathetic crap. (and it seems to be lapped up by some)  'the mark of modern country gentlemen and ladies'  really? do they actually read what they write?
		
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Perhaps Hackney Lass you may care to consider the views of Countrys Life's ideal Modern Country Women and do you feel you qualify on any of the 39 points? 

The full article appears in the latest edition of Country Life, out now.
Finds laughter is the best medicine
Can say thank you no matter where she is in the world
Cooks perfect, crispy roast potatoes
Offers to split the bill
Knows that everyone, including herself, improves with age
Offers the builder a cup of tea
Excels at making love, lasagna and long gin and tonics
Can silence a man with a stare and make a dog lie down with a hand signal and vice versa
Can imitate Piglet and Pooh voices for a bedtime story
Prefers Mr Knightley to Mr Wickham, but is secretly in love with Rupert Campbell-Black
Never downs a drink in one, unless its a shot of tequila
Is aware that the school run and dog walking do not require full make-up
Never wears shoes she cant walk in
Knows when a man is spoken for
Can paunch a rabbit, pluck a pheasant and gut a fish, but allows men the privilege
Remembers her godchildrens birthdays
Knows songs for a long car journey
Is neither early for a dinner party nor late for church
Doesnt over-pluck her eyebrows
Knows how to deflect a lecher with grace, and a proposal with kindness
Comforts nervous flyers
Would never have Botox
Knows when to let a man think its his idea
Would never own a handbag dog
Can tieand untiea bow tie
Might not understand the rules of rugby and cricket, but enjoys the game anyway
Knows when to take control in the bedroom and the boardroom
Knows the difference between Bentley & Skinner and Baddiel and Skinner
Instills manners in her children, but lets their characters flourish
Knows when to deadhead a rose
Is never afraid to overdress
Can handle a sports car, a sit-on mower and a ski lift
Knows when to stop dyeing her hair
Teaches her son to iron his shirts and her daughter to change a fuse
Owns a little black dress
Always has a hanky
Knows that brevity is the soul of lingerie
Has kissed several frogs and made them feel like princes
However lucky in life, she doesn't boast on Facebook


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## Alec Swan (4 November 2015)

Excellent JM,  but that actually does no more than describe a 'proper' girl!  Thin on the ground they may be,  but there are a few about,  should you look! 

Alec.


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## Judgemental (4 November 2015)

Alec Swan said:



			Excellent JM,  but that actually does no more than describe a 'proper' girl!  Thin on the ground they may be,  but there are a few about,  should you look! 

Alec.
		
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Alec I can say that generally my OH has a high score, however as a gentleman (IMO) I would be indiscreet to specify any points of which she does not reach the standard. 

However I have yet to train her where "Offers to split the bill" are concerned. That remains a comprehensive failure.

Do you have any remedial suggestions?


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## Judgemental (7 November 2015)

In my judgement Hunting has endured such a battering that all Ladies and Gentlemen behave as such and should be seen to do so in every way.

Therefore my contributions originated from Country Life are of greater importance than at any other time.

By Patrick Foster, Media CorrespondentDaily Telegraph.

There was a time when qualifying as a gentleman came down to little more than having the right breeding, the right schooling, and a nice firm handshake.

But in today&#8217;s dizzyingly complex world of social media, hi-tech gadgets and endlessly fluctuating trends, modern men could be forgiven for being somewhat bewildered about what standards of behavior are required.

Now Country Life has drawn up 39 rules that it says set the ground rules for modern male manners.

A man should wear a rose instead of a carnation, know when to clap, negotiate airports with ease and cook an omelette to die for 


The 39 steps to being a (modern) gentleman

Negotiates airports with ease
Never lets a door slam in someone's face
Can train a dog and a rose
Is aware that facial hair is temporary, but a tattoo is permanent
Knows when not to say anything
Wears his learning lightly
Possesses at least one well-made dark suit, one tweed suit, and a dinner jacket
Avoids lilac socks and polishes his shoes
Turns his mobile phone to silent at dinner
Carries house guests' luggage to their rooms
Tips staff in a private house and a gamekeeper
Says his name when being introduced
Breaks a relationship face to face
Is unafraid to speak the truth
Knows when to clap
Arrives at a meeting five minutes before the agreed time
Is good with waiters
Has two tricks to entertain children
Can undo a bra with one hand
Sings lustily in church
Is not vegetarian
Can sail a boat and ride a horse
Knows the difference between Glenfiddich and Glenda Jackson
Never kisses and tells
Cooks an omelette to die for
Can prepare a one-match bonfire
Seeks out his hostess at a party
Knows when to use an emoji
Would never own a Chihuahua
Has read Pride and Prejudice
Can tie his own bow tie
Would not go to Puerto Rico
Knows the difference between a rook and a crow
Sandals? No. Never
Wears a rose, not a carnation
Swats flies and rescues spiders
Demonstrates that making love is neither a race nor a competition
Never blow dries his hair
Knows that there is always an exception to a rule

As Mark Hedges, the magazine&#8217;s editor, says: &#8220;There is no higher accolade than to call a man a gentleman.&#8221;
The list covers a range of topics, including male grooming, use of technology, and competency in the great outdoors. While points such as being able to sail a boat and ride a horse would seem to fit within long-established gentlemanly conventions, a number of suggestions belong firmly in the 21st century.


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## chillipup (7 November 2015)

I can only presume you both jest! (please God)


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## Judgemental (7 November 2015)

chillipup said:



			I can only presume you both jest! (please God)
		
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I can assure you, never been more serious. There is a subtle meaning to all this so far as hunting is concerned. It will become clearer as time progresses


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## oldie48 (7 November 2015)

Well one can hope! I've always believed the essence of good manners is to be kind and considerate to other people, the rest is just snobbery. If someone chooses to wear lilac socks with their sandals, whilst wearing a pink carnation in their buttonhole it has nothing to do with manners, it may, however,  show questionable taste but IMO that is a different matter entirely.



chillipup said:



			I can only presume you both jest! (please God)
		
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## Alec Swan (7 November 2015)

oldie48 said:



			&#8230;&#8230;..  If someone chooses to wear lilac socks with their sandals, whilst wearing a pink carnation in their buttonhole it has nothing to do with manners, it may, however,  show questionable taste but IMO that is a different matter entirely.
		
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But then is a perceived sense of good taste no more than snobbery? Do we conform to the dictates of our small and individual worlds? 

Alec.


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## Goldenstar (7 November 2015)

Sadly I can report death is a possible outcome should MrGS attempt to cook an omelette .


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## oldie48 (7 November 2015)

No it is a matter of taste and nothing more than that, your perception of what is "good taste" may be quite different to mine, however, to make someone feel uncomfortable because of their taste shows a complete lack of manners. So many of the conventions that we like to think of as good manners are in fact just a way to exclude people or to demonstrate superiority. How many of the traditions associated with hunting are designed to demonstrate that someone had servants? Quite a few I think.



Alec Swan said:



			But then is a perceived sense of good taste no more than snobbery? Do we conform to the dictates of our small and individual worlds? 

Alec.
		
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## tootsietoo (7 November 2015)

I read number 21 in the list of a Lady's attributes as "knows how to deflect a lurcher with grace" and I wondered why on earth anyone would not want a big kiss from a lurcher!

oldie48 is spot on.


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## Judgemental (7 November 2015)

Alec Swan said:



			But then is a perceived sense of good taste no more than snobbery? Do we conform to the dictates of our small and individual worlds? 

Alec.
		
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Alec bearing in mind the whole concept is that of Country Life Magazine, I am merely a humble messenger.

My feeling is that we are entering something of a renaissance so far as hunting and field sports are concerned, in that manners, dress code and correctness, are going to be of greater importance. After all, hunting dress code survives as politeness to the masters as matter of daily procedure.

I believe that the lack of any dilution of the Hunting Act 2004, will generate attitudes of rigorous correctness by way of demonstrating a 'protest'. In other words one must never develop a lowering of standards.


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## chillipup (8 November 2015)

tootsietoo said:



			I read number 21 in the list of a Lady's attributes as "knows how to deflect a lurcher with grace" and I wondered why on earth anyone would not want a big kiss from a lurcher!

Brilliant tootsietoo, best laugh I've had all week, thank you. 

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## Goldenstar (8 November 2015)

While I enjoy tradition and knowing all the background to all this stuff is amusing I don't think a return to judging and man or woman for that matter by the were they bought their breeches and how they tie a tie/stock etc ( let's just not get into that)makes much sense on any level.
As the whole hip flask hierarchy thing just don't think it would work with us .
I went hunting yesterday 
It was pouring really pouring we ate sausages in a bothy we had a drink we got on the horses it was not the best day we talked laughed it was fun .
Everyone got back in one piece one poor child without a parent on horseback got a spectacular dunking in a stream but was rescued and sorted out .
This is the stuff that matters .
And my OH cut me up at a jump , I haven't dealt with him yet.


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## D66 (8 November 2015)

oldie48 said:



			No it is a matter of taste and nothing more than that, your perception of what is "good taste" may be quite different to mine, however, to make someone feel uncomfortable because of their taste shows a complete lack of manners. So many of the conventions that we like to think of as good manners are in fact just a way to exclude people or to demonstrate superiority. How many of the traditions associated with hunting are designed to demonstrate that someone had servants? Quite a few I think.
		
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This ^^^^^
OP You need to get out more, you would find nice people in all walks of life, and their idea of good manners vary. What matters is that they care about the feelings of others not that they have learned some arbitrary rules regarding which flower to wear, etc.


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## Alec Swan (8 November 2015)

Judgemental said:



			&#8230;&#8230;..

My feeling is that we are entering something of a renaissance so far as hunting and field sports are concerned, in that manners, dress code and correctness, are going to be of greater importance. After all, hunting dress code survives as politeness to the masters as matter of daily procedure.

I believe that the lack of any dilution of the Hunting Act 2004, will generate attitudes of rigorous correctness by way of demonstrating a 'protest'. In other words one must never develop a lowering of standards.
		
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By and large,  I agree with you! 

Alec.


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## Alec Swan (8 November 2015)

oldie48 said:



			&#8230;&#8230;.. . How many of the traditions associated with hunting are designed to demonstrate that someone had servants? Quite a few I think.
		
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Perhaps you'd explain them to me.  I'd suggest that though there will have been,  and possibly still are those who maintain staff,  I'd suggest that they're in the minority,  and always have been.  Just how much influence the minority have had,  remains a matter of conjecture,  I accept! 

Alec.


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## oldie48 (8 November 2015)

Well Alec, perhaps I should have said "were designed" rather than "are designed" However, having had a daughter who used to go out with a rather fashionable pack I certainly felt she needed several servants when she came home, wringing wet, blue with cold and with a pony covered from head to foot in mud. Any attempt to get her to wear a mac when the day was clearly going to be extremely wet was made with "it's not allowed". I can only assume whoever made the rules was met on their return by someone who dealt with the horse, another who dealt with the clothes and another who had a hot bath ready and waiting. I have just read the Heythrop guide to those new to hunting and frankly found it quite refreshing and many of the rules regarding turnout seem much more relaxed, thank goodness!



Alec Swan said:



			Perhaps you'd explain them to me.  I'd suggest that though there will have been,  and possibly still are those who maintain staff,  I'd suggest that they're in the minority,  and always have been.  Just how much influence the minority have had,  remains a matter of conjecture,  I accept! 

Alec.
		
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## shadeofshyness (8 November 2015)

I didn't realise Country Life was a satirical take on the social construct of gender in the British establishment. What an enlightening post!


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## Bernster (8 November 2015)

oldie48 said:



			I can only assume whoever made the rules was met on their return by someone who dealt with the horse, another who dealt with the clothes and another who had a hot bath ready and waiting. I have just read the Heythrop guide to those new to hunting and frankly found it quite refreshing and many of the rules regarding turnout seem much more relaxed, thank goodness!
		
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Sounds like bliss!  I wanna get me some staff &#128521;


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## Alec Swan (8 November 2015)

Bernster said:



			Sounds like bliss!  I wanna get me some staff &#65533;&#65533;
		
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I'm advised that a non-riding husband or wife can,  with a little forethought and instruction,  fit the bill.  I'm assured that I make a passable groom,  if not much of a husband.  You'd think that one would lead on from the other,  but apparently not! 

Alec.


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## Judgemental (9 November 2015)

Digger66 said:



			This ^^^^^
OP You need to get out more, you would find nice people in all walks of life, and their idea of good manners vary. What matters is that they care about the feelings of others not that they have learned some arbitrary rules regarding which flower to wear, etc.
		
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Digger you have missed the point. The two pieces were originated by Country Life Magazine and as I said in an earlier post I was merely a humble messenger.

The fact Country Life deem such comments and 'rules' worthy of contemporary publication, is indicative of the general tone relevant to 'Country Life'.

One has to look at the whole sociological aspect of Country Living and the juxtaposition of hunting and field sports in the overall context.

Granted, it is a complex issue and one which does not necessarily appear important on the surface, but when looked at in the round, there is a profound message, that demonstrates that all the traditional elements of country life are very much alive.

That includes activities, dress code, class distinction, sex and dare I say money.


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## hackneylass2 (18 November 2015)

'Might not understand the rules of rugby and cricket, but enjoys the game anyway'

Patronising in the extreme....although I hope they refer to rugby league not the faffing about rugby union!

IMO country living has nothing to do with activities, dress code, class distinction (I mean, where do you even start?) and money.  Profound, my arrrse, Country life are living in a dream world, wheras most country dwellers are not, and don't care a fig about peoples' social standing or dress, just basic good manners, which both decent town, city and country folk appreciate.


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## Judgemental (20 November 2015)

hackneylass2 said:



			'Might not understand the rules of rugby and cricket, but enjoys the game anyway'

Patronising in the extreme....although I hope they refer to rugby league not the faffing about rugby union!

IMO country living has nothing to do with activities, dress code, class distinction (I mean, where do you even start?) and money.  Profound, my arrrse, Country life are living in a dream world, wheras most country dwellers are not, and don't care a fig about peoples' social standing or dress, just basic good manners, which both decent town, city and country folk appreciate.
		
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In some ways you are correct in that there is a veneer or shroud that covers the intricacies of country life and living.

However there is an underlying and undeniable Class Distinction.

We are a many faceted nation and like it or not, for example, it does not matter who or where you are from, folk are always MENTALLY 'pigeon holed' according to the way they speak and their accent whether or not it is regional.

I am not making any criticism of the fact but anybody reading this will, unless I am very much mistaken, admit privately to themselves, that within a second or two of meeting anybody, they make an immediate analysis of their persona. It is a fact or life and no more accentuated than in the countryside.


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