# Buck. The real horse whisperer. BBC4.



## grandmaweloveyou (3 June 2013)

Anyone watching?

I dont normally stay downstairs this late but wow fab prog so far

Although

I am still welled up from the hideous scene of how 'we' used to break horses.

Hideous.

Watch on catch up if you cant watch it now

Enjoy x


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## Rebels (3 June 2013)

Horrible wasn't it.


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## Rebels (3 June 2013)

Though I debate at the pessoa being as cruel as hock hobbles.


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## Leam_Carrie (3 June 2013)

It was awful watching the breaking. Fascinating watching in general - amazing what he does.


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## flaxen (3 June 2013)

The chestnut/palomino stallion shocked me, poor creature to have such a problem with people, I don't agree with lassoing him by his hind leg but his attitude to people could have got someone killed.


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## Zebedee (3 June 2013)

Yes, I'm also up far later than I should be. What a fascinating program.


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## Rebels (3 June 2013)

I think the lasso was the only sure fire way to guarantee it stopped. Stupid women with 18 stallions.


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## mulledwhine (3 June 2013)

That ' killer' colt was beyond help  poor dan 

I think buck is amazing , what a lovely , beautiful man


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## dieseldog (3 June 2013)

Do you reckon she did have it put to sleep?  That poor horse - when people say you've ruined a horse they should watch that, that is proper ruined.


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## Rebels (3 June 2013)

I don't know how you could shoot the thing except by rifle from a distance. Stunning horse though.


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## ZondaR (3 June 2013)

The owner seemed to be in denial about him.  She said she would have him pts in case he would be horribly beaten if she sold him on.  That horse was viciously attacking people who were randomly walking past the pen, how could she think of selling him on? He will kill someone.  I was also wondering about the pesoa being shown as a cruel device.  A properly trained western cattle horse is amazing to watch, very good show, he is quite a remarkable man.


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## Leam_Carrie (3 June 2013)

Amazing, thinking time to do some more reading about this. Any book suggestions?


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## grandmaweloveyou (3 June 2013)

Wow what an amazing programme and Buck is now my new infatuation, forget Jason Statham. My OH let the dog out when the stallion attacked, she can't believe she missed it, so so tragically sad.

However, how does the respect for 1 animal lessen towars another? The chasing/lassoing of frightened cows/calves in arenas cannot be any better than badly treating a horse?


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## DabDab (3 June 2013)

I was gobsmacked by that colt - I've never seen a horse attack with such intent. Think how long that behaviour must have been snowballing


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## dieseldog (3 June 2013)

The owner was totally oblivious to how dangerous it was.  After it bit the guys head she was waving her arms thru the railings - demented.


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## longdog (3 June 2013)

Agree - fascinating programme, but I had tears in my eyes over the vicious colt


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## ribbons (3 June 2013)

Incredible man. Fabulous programme.


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## noodle_ (3 June 2013)

is there a catch up?!



cant find it on 4od!?

anyone get me a link pls??


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## Azabache (3 June 2013)

Such a tragic situation with that colt. Buck looked really upset when loading him. You , could sense his irritation with the owner especially when she tried to call the horse in to the trailer!


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## Azabache (3 June 2013)

BBC4 iplayer. Aleady on there. Just watched the colt again.


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## Langley11 (3 June 2013)

What a lovely man. Made me cry.  Horrendous scene showing the 'old ways' - also made me cry. Inspirational that he could become such an adored man, father and husband after such a terrible start after his Mum died. Wasn't his foster Mum fab?!


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## baileyxboo (3 June 2013)

Do you think that stud has got abit of brain damage?


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## ribbons (4 June 2013)

I think buck explained that brain damage after oxygen deprivation at birth was likely. He also pointed out that although it would never be a world beater it could have been a nice reliable little horse with the right owner. 
Sadly this little fella got an idiot.


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## RainbowDash (4 June 2013)

I started a similar threadin the club house .. I found this film very inspiring and motivating - good one Beeb - shame it is on 4 rather than 2 or 1 ...


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## Cherrydan (4 June 2013)

I respect Buck for being straight to that colts owner, she was trying to be big stuff and he cut her down to size...it is our responsibility, we owe it to our horses to work with them...I think she was a real idiot, guess what? It's okay to admit you're out of your depth, and because she was a coward, that lad had to be killed...great horsemanship, and if he was brain damaged, surely an owner of 18 stallions could have spotted it before 3?...


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## baileyxboo (4 June 2013)

ribbons said:



			I think buck explained that brain damage after oxygen deprivation at birth was likely. He also pointed out that although it would never be a world beater it could have been a nice reliable little horse with the right owner. 
Sadly this little fella got an idiot.
		
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Yeah  poor horse! The bloody owner with 18 stallions, then wondering why the horse wasnt behaved enough?!! But Jesus it toke a chunk out that guys face


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## noodle_ (4 June 2013)

thanks found it

jeez that colt!!!....

what age do they start them over there??  

id have pts that colt too...very dangerous.


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## chotty (4 June 2013)

I also had tears in my eyes over that colt. Poor thing to have had such an idiot of an owner, if he'd had a one to one caring home I'm sure he would have been a lot better off. I'm sure she said she broke her back and that's why he was unhandled? Wonder what the rest of her horses are like! 

Also had tears in my eyes when Buck was talking about how a horse's personality reflects your own personality, as it's so true. Definitely much deeper than what we think we know about body language, horses can read our minds and emotions so much better than we can of ourselves!


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## _GG_ (4 June 2013)

Recorded and my non horsey OH was in awe watching this guy. 

Watching him work his horse as the credits started was like poetry in motion...just sublime.

He is no hypocrite regarding roping calves...it is a skill that has to be learned. Better to be able to know how to do that so you can catch an treat an injured calf on the plains than have to leave it as you can't really drive injured animals hundreds of miles back to a ranch and a round pen. The competitions just act as motivation to keep the skills up. Very different to big time rodeo roping where calves are roped and dragged around.

What he said about horses seeing right into us made me very very proud. My girls are calm as calm can be but they weren't always and I have made mistakes, but they forgive me. 

I have never been into natural horsemanship, but I am into Bucks true horseman attitude. 

What a man...and I get the distinct impression he'd be quite glad it wasn't shown on prime time. The Parelli and such like travelling publicity machines could learn a lot from him.


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## Equilibrium Ireland (4 June 2013)

I watched it because I've been in awe of this guy for ages. As well as Ray Hunt and Tom Dorrance. 

With regards to the Pessoa, that woman said nothing that actually hasn't been said on this very board. Hits them in the moutn every time they take a step. The more I know of this long and low just about every vet seems to think is proper work the more I'm against it altogether. But I already had a thread on said subject.

The lunatic stallion. Cruel with rope on hind foot. That was the only time the stallion was workable. The only time he listened. The timing and skill of what he did can not be replicated by many people. Nor would it be a skill that you would use often and maybe never. Easy to be an expert sitting on a sofa or could have done it differently. 

I loved how he explained pressures and giving in the contact. The same amount of pressure applied different ways. Watching those horses working in dressage movement with very little worry of the magic outline was amazing. All working from their hocks. Feel and subtle movements while being light. Anyway I did take those things on board. 

He really is an amazing man. Would love him to come over to these shores. 

Terri


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## Alec Swan (4 June 2013)

ribbons said:



			I think buck explained that brain damage after oxygen deprivation at birth was likely. He also pointed out that although it would never be a world beater it could have been a nice reliable little horse with the right owner. 
Sadly this little fella got an idiot.
		
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Whilst I'm hardly qualified to contradict a truly remarkable man,  I thought that the suggestion that the colt was as he was,  because of hypoxia at birth was highly unlikely.  Hypoxia would be far more likely to suppress aggression.

The more likely reason was that stupid,  *stupid* woman.  She had an orphan foal,  reared it in the house as a pet,  she "potty trained" it and as an entire youngster,  it never learned any respect for humans.  Why they didn't geld it,  as it was only 3,  was a mystery,  or failing that,  shoot the bloody thing.  Through the film,  at times the horse had a rope head-collar on,  and then off,  so someone must have been able to handle it.  It seemed to have an abiding hatred for the guy who was attempting to handle it,  and I'm surprised that he got away as lightly as he did,  through one determined attack.  

Apart from the episode with that colt,  that was an immensely enjoyable film.  He managed to ignore the sins of the father,  and came through it all as a lovely man.  Respect.

Alec.


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## jeeve (4 June 2013)

I have this tape and his training cd's at home, and his book. He has a nice quiet way with horses, a lot of the NH guys in the US (and here in Aussie), have the same way about them. But no nonsense, does not make excuses for people, tells it like it is.


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## tallyho! (4 June 2013)

Just watched it on iplayer. Too tired last night.

So pleased they covered the pessoa and other "gadgets"!!! Yes!!! He even called it medieval!

The stupid fascination with the head is like some sort of disease we have here - especially in dressage! In the film Buck shows repeatedly throughout how controlling the quarters is the way to get engagement and lightening and listening.

He's not the only one, horsemasters of the past have been showing people how to do it for centuries but why is it so hard for us to learn??? 

The proof that the horseworld is STILL so fixated on the head is apparent when you walk into a tack shop.


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## Orangehorse (4 June 2013)

That was fascinating, all round.  From the "old ways" of breaking-in can you see how the Monty Roberts, et al made such an impact?  Even Buck said that is how he started out, it was the norm.  So every time someone says "Oh, but we aren't cruel in the UK, these people are crazy" - actually what they mean is what we all saw on the TV - horses were thrown to the ground, and the horses fought until they were subduded.  This is also why in the USA horses are often started when much younger, because it is obviously easier to control and break a weaker animal.

As to that colt - fascinating.  I have never seen such agression from a horse, he really meant it, didn't he? I am afraid a bullet was the only thing for him.  Sadly it is often the case that orphan foals have a sad end as they are uncontrollable if not reared correctly.  Interestingly he had a bit of white around his eyes, that is supposed to indicate a bad temper and in this case it was right.  

I really liked the way that Buck spoke to the owner, he didn't mince his words, but he didn't raise his voice or get cross with her, he just told it as it was.  

Good programme, wish my horse could dance like that!


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## Equilibrium Ireland (4 June 2013)

Orangehorse, what on earth are you talking about? Are these your facts? You're talking in the present tense about black and white video clips. They start em young in the US before they're big and strong. Poppycock. Greed more than fear. At any rate again like I have explained time and time again. Age is not the reason hotses succumb to injury to a degree. A 5 year old can stil go lame as he's sat around becoming fat living on a couple of acres, rugged up in winter and muzzled in summer because Dobbin gets fat. Dobbin has no exercise. Dobbin is more than likely compromised from the standpoint of being a big weak horse underneath that "mature" looking body. Now that he's mature we break and keep on going on. After all he's 5. A lot more slow fitness work will be needed but nope never consider those facts. These colts used in most starting clinics have lived out on rough grazing of hundreds of acres. At 3 they can handle a bit of work. They are so far ahead of Dobbin in terms of development. Age is a factor but it goes with so many other things and I can't quite wrap my head around the fact people never consider anything else. 

Terri


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## Equilibrium Ireland (4 June 2013)

Oh and Tallyho, I wished you lived nearby. I love your posts. 

Terri


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## ridefast (4 June 2013)

Orangehorse said:



			Interestingly he had a bit of white around his eyes, that is supposed to indicate a bad temper and in this case it was right.
		
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What rubbish. There is, in my opinion, absolutely no truth in that saying. I have known plenty of horses with white around the eyes and they were lovely. The only explanation I've ever heard for it was from a craniosacral practitioner who said it can indicate tightness, worry or a mental block, showing me this whilst treating a very lovely and friendly horse who as she relaxed lost the white around her eyes.


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## Well I Never (4 June 2013)

Does anyone know if she did put him down, why wasn't he gelded?
Running with stallions, sorry but what do you expect, there is only one in a herd, I can't imagine the bedlam on her yard.
He was ruined from birth would you revive an already dead foal


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## baileyxboo (4 June 2013)

I follow a guy on YouTube called horseawareness, he's really good aswell x


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## PonyIAmNotFood (4 June 2013)

I can't find this on catch up on Virgin  booooo.


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## YasandCrystal (4 June 2013)

Absolutely rivetting viewing. What a man; such intuition, humilty. And to have come through his terrible unthinkable childhood and do what he does. His family were a reflection of him - just brilliant.
Shame he's not over here doing his clinics.


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## Mithras (4 June 2013)

I think hypoxia at birth could equally lead to aggressive behaviour as passivity; since the neural connections and myelination would be affected, meaning that the reasoning process in response to stimuli would be under-developed.  Then if the horse had only been with stallions and never received normal socialisation, aggression could be the only response it had learned.  

I was really shocked at seeing a horse behave like that; although I did notice that once it had bitten the handler, it didn't then go for him with its front or hind legs when he was on the ground.  It seemed more of a territorial, warning off type of behaviour.  But then we only saw a snap shot.  Why did no-one think of gelding the animal?

I was really impressed by Buck Branneman, I felt more relaxed just from watching him on tv!  Seemed a very intelligent person.  Fab programme.


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## YasandCrystal (4 June 2013)

I have a friend who had a hand reared horse and he said that it just wasn't the same as any other horse. It lacked that respectful bond between human and horse, which is understandable as it was hand reared.  There is a whole early learning pattern that is lost I believe through hand rearing.
The owner of the colt was very misguided.


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## Suechoccy (4 June 2013)

It's the 2nd time I've seen that film.  I found it thoroughly interesting the first time around and this time I saw so much more in it too.  

There's conflicting info on the internet as to whether the woman had the dangerous colt killed or whether he's alive and used for breeding.  

You can watch just the clip of him attacking Dan (Buck's staff) on youtube but without having seen the 10 minutes of programme of the previous day beforehand, it's easy to watch the utube clip and think "why was Dan doing that?"  If you'd seen what happened the day before and how the horse was when in his "stable", then you'd see more of the whole picture.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D7FMuIwI8vU

When teh woman said she broke her back, I wondered if she'd broken it on one of her 18 stallions.  Potty-training, bottlefeeding and keeping a horse in the house just beggars belief.  

You can watch the whole programme again on bbc iplayer on your computer. The whole programme sets the above videoclip in context.  Worth seeing the whole programme. I've loved seeing all the calm owners and their young horses all at the starting-clinic, all in the rectangular arena with their tack, doing some groundwork, then being tacked, and eventually ridden, all very very calm and relaxed vibe throughout.

The roundpen canter of 3 of them with Buck cantering behind was interesting and I guess from the horses' viewpoint they were busy keeping their feet and happy being with each other so not so distracted by having riders on their backs?

The cow work was brilliant. Watchng the class of owners and horses relaxing as they put their focus onto cutting the cow out and keeping it from the herd.  Good to hear people laughingand enjoying their horses too.


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## templewood (4 June 2013)

Alec Swan said:



			Whilst I'm hardly qualified to contradict a truly remarkable man,  I thought that the suggestion that the colt was as he was,  because of hypoxia at birth was highly unlikely.  Hypoxia would be far more likely to suppress aggression.

The more likely reason was that stupid,  *stupid* woman.  She had an orphan foal,  reared it in the house as a pet,  she "potty trained" it and as an entire youngster,  it never learned any respect for humans.  Why they didn't geld it,  as it was only 3,  was a mystery,  or failing that,  shoot the bloody thing.  Through the film,  at times the horse had a rope head-collar on,  and then off,  so someone must have been able to handle it.  It seemed to have an abiding hatred for the guy who was attempting to handle it,  and I'm surprised that he got away as lightly as he did,  through one determined attack.  

Apart from the episode with that colt,  that was an immensely enjoyable film.  He managed to ignore the sins of the father,  and came through it all as a lovely man.  Respect.

Alec.
		
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I agree with what you say. He said the colt was as near a predator as a horse can get. That was nonsense. I've seen this behaviour before. If you look at it from the colt's point of view, he was taken from the only home he's ever known and attacked by people he didn't know. Wild animals have two responses. Flight or fight. He was a young stallion, probably with mares nearby, in a strange place. He couldn't flee, so he fought, as far as he was concerned, for his life. He was one very frightened horse. 
I got the impression that she had never put him out with other horses, as she suggested putting him out with her other stallions. The truth was that Buck couldn't do anything for him, as his methods didn't work. In this case, no quick fix. It doesn't mean that the horse had brain damage. Gelding could have made a huge difference.

Naughty horses are a completely different ballgame to frightened horses.


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## JillA (4 June 2013)

Young animals who are not brought up by their mother or a foster/adopted mother miss out on a vital stage of development and socialisation. In humans we call it the Terrible Two's - it is that stage of learning to deal with the frustration that comes from not getting your own way, think tantrum in the supermarket. Puppies removed from their dams too soon miss out on it and become what we might think of as needing "anger management training" lol. Natural or adoptive dams do it by denying access to the food supply and then usually later offer an alternative, but NOT as a reinforcer to tantrums. That is often what is missing in hand reared animals, and there is an optimum time for it to take place, as part of the weaning process. That colt didn't know how to deal with his own anger/fear/whatever and his only available response was a tantrum, regardless of whether or not he was gelded (and presumably there would be practical problems such as having to dart him to sedate him?). I'm not sure he could ever be fixed, and he was clearly one unhappy horse. Euthanasia was much the best option IMO.


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## moodymare123 (4 June 2013)

watching it now, what a lovely and talented man.


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## Well I Never (4 June 2013)

Yes I agree that orphans are different, but how many of them are potty trained living in the house!
Then living as an entire with 17 other entries!

And to breed from an animal that dangerous is plainly not responsible. If that rumour is to be believed.


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## Amaranta (4 June 2013)

He is my new hero, I loved his way with the horses, such humility, kindness but commanding respect.  I loved the way he said that they were like children and you had to be the parent first and foremost, I have often thought that bringing up kids was not unlike bringing on horses

The colt was heartbreaking and I agree that the owner is the ONLY one at fault here, you could sense his irritation with her during the loading scene.  That colt looked to have a fair amount of Spanish blood in him (not a palomino btw but a double pearl).  I have never ever seen such aggression in a horse, he really really meant it and sadly, there was only one option for him.  Such a waste.

The other thing that struck me was that his horses did not go in that 'on the forehand' way that show western riders horses seem to, but rather in a normal outline, I loved watching the bits where he did the dressage moves, I am completely and utterly in awe of him.


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## doriangrey (4 June 2013)

PonyIAmNotFood said:



			I can't find this on catch up on Virgin  booooo.
		
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It's all on youtube.  This is the first part (1-9), it does have Swedish subtitles but they're not off-putting.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e5xxY8HFr0o


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## doriangrey (4 June 2013)

JillA said:



			Young animals who are not brought up by their mother or a foster/adopted mother miss out on a vital stage of development and socialisation. In humans we call it the Terrible Two's - it is that stage of learning to deal with the frustration that comes from not getting your own way, think tantrum in the supermarket. Puppies removed from their dams too soon miss out on it and become what we might think of as needing "anger management training" lol. Natural or adoptive dams do it by denying access to the food supply and then usually later offer an alternative, but NOT as a reinforcer to tantrums. That is often what is missing in hand reared animals, and there is an optimum time for it to take place, as part of the weaning process. That colt didn't know how to deal with his own anger/fear/whatever and his only available response was a tantrum, regardless of whether or not he was gelded (and presumably there would be practical problems such as having to dart him to sedate him?). I'm not sure he could ever be fixed, and he was clearly one unhappy horse. Euthanasia was much the best option IMO.
		
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Very unhappy and it appears terribly confused.  This is what I came across (my source is from Youtube)

"-Here is some info provided to me about the horse:
The stallion is back in his pasture and looks like he is leading the same life as before. I have never talked to the owner personally but I am assuming that she breeds most of her 18 stallions. When she signed that pal up for the clinic she didn't tell anyone about the beast that she created. She signed up and showed up for the colt starting clinic and didn't tell anyone about what he really was until they had started. They edited so much of his behavior out of the documentary. Like how when Buck first roped him from the hind leg he would throw himself down on the ground violently and would scream just like a three year old throwing a fit and he did that multiple times. When we wasn't be worked with and was just standing in the pen and a woman walked by the pen he would get hard, run into the panel, grab it and start humping the air and squirting everywhere. If a man would walk by him he would try to attack him as if the man were another stallion. Walking a mare by the pen didn't give that reaction but human women did. When they were loading him it took a long time and every time the horse would start to get near the pen he would start sniffing really deep almost like a tiger would when it smells food and he would follow his nose down to where they had the man crouching/holding the gate to the trailer. That man practically pee'd his pants when the horse would start pawing but Buck talked to him softly and got the man to stand his ground holding the gate. I think the decision to put that little snip it of what happened during the clinic was to add some drama to the film but I don't think it was the best decision because the whole story was never told. Excuse my language but that woman really ****ed that horse up and unfortunately she will not give up ownership to a good trainer."

If all that's true, how on earth do you rehabilitate if it's even possible?


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## Tinypony (4 June 2013)

I've been studying Buck's work for years and if I could be just a fraction as good with horses as he is I'd be very happy.  My favourite trainer, Steve Halfpenny, has been described as "Buck, but with customer care", and through him I've become fascinated with the vaquero horsemanship.
There will be a lot of criticism of what he does, and the way he expresses himself, but to me the proof was looking at his own horses and the horses he rides.  They are relaxed but not dead between the ears, and have that lovely workmanlike way about them when asked to do something.
What I'm really thrilled about is that this film has given people a glimpse of how "nh" style stuff can be different.  Now you know where the roots of Parelli come from, and how far it's travelled.


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## jeeve (4 June 2013)

Steve half penny great, have seen him too


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## _GG_ (4 June 2013)

What Buck was doing was so far removed from what the Parelli's of this world do. 

That colt, IMHO was better off going home to be hopefully shot...as if it is still in a field somewhere with all of that tension built up, it is no life. However...I am so so glad she signed up to a clinic with a man that was simply not willing to put the horse through any more or risk anyone getting more badly hurt. 

I am sure PP and others would have found it far too temping to try and prove themselves and work that colt until it was dead on its legs. Not something I would ever wish to see. Instead, with Buck...he put the horse first and his own agenda/reputation/ego after that. For that, he has my utmost respect. 

Shame we can't all be a little more like him really.

As for the owner of that colt and all of those stallions, well, she is the epitome of selfishness when it comes to horses. Should anything ever happen to her, she has condemned her stallions to an extremely uncertain future. It is hard enough finding a new home for 1 good stallion, let alone 18 that probably have less than great manners. Stupid, stupid, selfish and cruel!


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## Amaranta (4 June 2013)

Tinypony said:



			I've been studying Buck's work for years and if I could be just a fraction as good with horses as he is I'd be very happy.  My favourite trainer, Steve Halfpenny, has been described as "Buck, but with customer care", and through him I've become fascinated with the vaquero horsemanship.
There will be a lot of criticism of what he does, and the way he expresses himself, but to me the proof was looking at his own horses and the horses he rides.  They are relaxed but not dead between the ears, and have that lovely workmanlike way about them when asked to do something.
What I'm really thrilled about is that this film has given people a glimpse of how "nh" style stuff can be different.  Now you know where the roots of Parelli come from, and how far it's travelled.
		
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I saw no Parelli there, and would argue that it was not NH but plain old good horsemanship, there is no need for any other label.

To me, Buck Brannaham is the polar opposite of Pat Parelli.


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## Amaranta (4 June 2013)

_GG_ said:



			What Buck was doing was so far removed from what the Parelli's of this world do. 

That colt, IMHO was better off going home to be hopefully shot...as if it is still in a field somewhere with all of that tension built up, it is no life. However...I am so so glad she signed up to a clinic with a man that was simply not willing to put the horse through any more or risk anyone getting more badly hurt. 

I am sure PP and others would have found it far too temping to try and prove themselves and work that colt until it was dead on its legs. Not something I would ever wish to see. Instead, with Buck...he put the horse first and his own agenda/reputation/ego after that. For that, he has my utmost respect. 

Shame we can't all be a little more like him really.

As for the owner of that colt and all of those stallions, well, she is the epitome of selfishness when it comes to horses. Should anything ever happen to her, she has condemned her stallions to an extremely uncertain future. It is hard enough finding a new home for 1 good stallion, let alone 18 that probably have less than great manners. Stupid, stupid, selfish and cruel!
		
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I agree with every single word!


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## Dry Rot (4 June 2013)

It sounds to me a if that colt was a combination of two evils. 

Bad imprinting combined with no socialisation/social skills. It views humans as fellow horses (or itself as a human) and has never learnt the social skills of dealing with others, whether they be human or horse.

One poor confused animal with only one logical outcome. As for the owner, another example of good intentions leading to ruin -- in this case of the poor bloody horse! There are plenty of similar stories, unfortunately.


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## JillA (4 June 2013)

Buck and Parelli derive from the same root - Tom Dorrance. Buck learned from Ray Hunt who had learned from Tom, but I have to say, from what I have been told by someone who knew PP back then, I do think he was pretty much like Buck in the early days. Then he (with his new wife) decided to create a global brand, and as with everything, money corrupts, and the ego got in the way. Credit to Buck, with his success with the film he could so easily have grown a mega ego too but he seems not to have.
Bill Dorrance, Toms brother, was still riding regularly at over 90, and he wrote True Horsemanship through Feel (with Lesley Desmond). 
I aim to still be riding at over 90 but please God not the brick ***** house of a wide horse I have now bless him  Arab x welsh B might suit


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## YasandCrystal (4 June 2013)

Agree far far far removed from the Parellis!

Buck had this 'I don't care, but I care so much' quality that just goes hand in hand it seems with all those great horsemen. Complete control over his own emotions and understood horses like open books. It was like he was simply born to train the world in this manner.
Just great viewing, you could watch and watch this man and never stop learning from him.


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## JillA (4 June 2013)

Dry Rot said:



			It sounds to me a if that colt was a combination of two evils. 

Bad imprinting combined with no socialisation/social skills. It views humans as fellow horses (or itself as a human) and has never learnt the social skills of dealing with others, whether they be human or horse.

One poor confused animal with only one logical outcome. As for the owner, another example of good intentions leading to ruin -- in this case of the poor bloody horse! There are plenty of similar stories, unfortunately.
		
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I have just known about a lovely horse who was ruined in a similar way. Fantastic bright athletic TB x Lippi, he was raised by his dam but owners (first time breeders) babied him played chase games with him when he was a foal. When he became 17hh of agile young horse with no respect and a penchant for rearing, they sent him to be "schooled " - for which read bullied into submission. He was recently put down because he had no flight response in his dealings with people, only a fight one - a more enlightened trainer took him on but he never did gain any respect for humans. 12 years old and all because of human numpties.


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## fburton (4 June 2013)

ribbons said:



			I think buck explained that brain damage after oxygen deprivation at birth was likely. He also pointed out that although it would never be a world beater it could have been a nice reliable little horse with the right owner. 
Sadly this little fella got an idiot.
		
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I don't think anyone could be sure the behaviour was caused by brain damage, and it's entirely possible all of it was learned. My guess (and I don't know) is that Buck raised this possibility to make the owner a) feel better and b) do the sensible thing.


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## fburton (4 June 2013)

_GG_ said:



			What a man...and I get the distinct impression he'd be quite glad it wasn't shown on prime time. The Parelli and such like travelling publicity machines could learn a lot from him.
		
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A humility that is refreshing to see.


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## LittleBlackMule (4 June 2013)

Anyone who missed it or can't get it on catch  up, there is a DVD of it:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Buck-DVD-Br...d&ie=UTF8&qid=1370353217&sr=1-1&keywords=buck

There was so much footage that ended up on the cutting room floor when this film was made, that they decided to put together a more 'how to' educational set of DVDs, showing Buck's method in step by step form.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Clinics-Buc...UTF8&qid=1370353452&sr=1-1&keywords=7+clinics


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## tallyho! (4 June 2013)

I agree, I don't think good horsemanship should be labelled e.g. NH, classical, etc etc.

Good horsemanship is good horsemanship is good horsemanship - don't care if you wear a stetson or a bowler hat.

and thanks *Terri* for that lovely compliment! I'm not known for good posts so it means a lot!! Cheers!


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## tallyho! (4 June 2013)

p.s. for those asking for iPlayer link...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b020tlrw/Storyville_20132014_Buck_The_Real_Horse_Whisperer/

There you go! Invoice in the post


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## Fellewell (4 June 2013)

I was struck by the amount of rapid blinking that colt showed. Whether that's indicative of a nervous system disorder or his owner had already tried him on drugs, I don't know. Either way I'd like to have seen the colt gelded and the owner shot.

The whole thing reminded me of a documentary about a chimp removed from its mother and 'raised as a human'. Like watching a car crash in very slow motion. Absolutely tragic.


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## sally259 (4 June 2013)

doriangrey - thank you for posting the link.  I was so disappointed when I saw this thread and realised I'd missed the programme.


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## doriangrey (4 June 2013)

sally259 said:



			doriangrey - thank you for posting the link.  I was so disappointed when I saw this thread and realised I'd missed the programme.
		
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You're welcome    I had to find it that way myself after I missed it because even though I pay for the BBC channels through Sky TV, the iplayer won't stream them in Ireland


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## fburton (4 June 2013)

Fellewell said:



			I was struck by the amount of rapid blinking that colt showed. Whether that's indicative of a nervous system disorder or his owner had already tried him on drugs, I don't know. Either way I'd like to have seen the colt gelded and the owner shot.
		
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Does anyone know what happened to the colt? I thought he ended up being shot, but I could have imagined that.

If he was gelded, it would be interesting to know the extent to which he calmed down. I don't think castration would make any horse safe necessarily - the worst "out of the blue" biter I ever encountered (who had the nickname Alien) was a gelding.


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## Fellewell (4 June 2013)

fburton said:



			Does anyone know what happened to the colt? I thought he ended up being shot, but I could have imagined that.

If he was gelded, it would be interesting to know the extent to which he calmed down. I don't think castration would make any horse safe necessarily - the worst "out of the blue" biter I ever encountered (who had the nickname Alien) was a gelding.
		
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I've handled two confirmed biters in the last month, both geldings, and the interesting thing is they can actually be quite selective about who they chomp on. Years ago I loaned an ISH who bit and kicked but it was all defensive. I soon learned how to block and being BHS I always like them securely tethered

I too would like to know what became of the colt.


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## RubysGold (4 June 2013)

I saw it because my sister told me it was on. That clip near the beginning though of the poor horse falling over covered in lunge lines and being whipped made me want to cry, have heard before that things used to be brutal but what were they trying to do????!!!!The horse that bit the handler OMG, I have never seen anything like it !!! Poor guy.


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## lurcher98 (4 June 2013)

From what I saw on a YouTube video ( someone else saw it too as its on a post further up but can't do quotes) the colt is back in with the 17 other stallions and still alive


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## FlaxenPony05 (4 June 2013)

This is off the fb fan page:
_An update about the woman Buck is referring to; she has returned to Buck's clinics including the colt starting classes. She has been making many changes in her life and her horsemanship skills continue to improve._


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## Orangehorse (4 June 2013)

Starting young in the USA.  My sister lives in the USA and what struck her very early on - 20+ years ago when she moved there - was that as soon as a foal lost its baby tail it was regarded as old enough to be broken and do work.  She was shocked. It still goes on.  I also know plenty of animals that were broken-in at 2 and are still going strong in their 20s, just as horses broken in later can get injured.  Some of it is down to luck, and their work history as well.

As for white eyes, to quote Linda Tellington-Jones, who did a study and is also the granddaughter of a racehorse trainer, " In solid coloured horses, white below or above the pupil that does not change with mood has no particular significance.  However, when the white appears or disappers with mood changes, mental imbalance or extreme tension is indicated."  This goes on to explain in more details, also mentioning that there may be pain which can explain their behaviour.

I thought is was a well known thing that white around the eyes can mean bad temper, just as lop ears indicate a laid-back individual.  Everything is a generalisation of course, but there is a certain amount of truth in these things.


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## Equilibrium Ireland (4 June 2013)

I'm American OH. I learned my starting skills over there and what you describe is so untrue. From idiots maybe but hey the UK has those as well. Thing is I'd never label everyone in the UK with broad strokes. And really all across the world and at any age, I see people making disasters out of horses. From cruelty to spoiling rotten in search of a perfect bond. 

Terri


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## Amaranta (4 June 2013)

Equilibrium Ireland said:



			I'm American OH. I learned my starting skills over there and what you describe is so untrue. From idiots maybe but hey the UK has those as well. Thing is I'd never label everyone in the UK with broad strokes. And really all across the world and at any age, I see people making disasters out of horses. From cruelty to spoiling rotten in search of a perfect bond. 

Terri
		
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I have to agree, you only have to look on the infamous Dragon Driving to see youngsters started at 2 or even younger in some cases, it is not something that only the US does!  There are also plenty of people in the UK who have horses and really really should not!


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## tallyho! (4 June 2013)

Appleby fair is on in a couple of days or so...


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## attheponies (4 June 2013)

Just watched it on iplayer - brilliant! My favourite bit was the dressage rider working the cows, as a western enthusiast I can't wait to suggest this to the dressage divas at the yard!


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## Tinypony (4 June 2013)

We've always had a great mix of riders on our clinics, including a couple of dressage divas.  Anyone can benefit from looking at what a good horseman does can't they?  Even if from a different background.

Re what I said about Parelli, I wasn't comparing Buck to Parelli, to me there is no comparison.  I was pointing out that the roots are the same, and look how different they are now...  

Buck's story has some striking similarities with Monty Roberts' story doesn't it?


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## Alyth (5 June 2013)

LOL  Except that Bucks story has been authenticated and Montys proved wrong.......there are some things in Bucks methods that I either don't understand or don't agree with...but there is no denying that he is a superb horseman...look at the clip of him riding his own horse....brilliant!!


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## Tinypony (5 June 2013)

Alyth said:



			LOL  Except that Bucks story has been authenticated and Montys proved wrong.......
		
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Really Alyth? You don't say...


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## tallyho! (5 June 2013)

Tinypony said:



			We've always had a great mix of riders on our clinics, including a couple of dressage divas.  Anyone can benefit from looking at what a good horseman does can't they?  Even if from a different background.
		
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I think if a horse thinks it has a purpose, it's more likely to co-operate. I was having a debate on another thread about whether horses "love" what they do. Of course, can't say for sure they love anything but I believe they can "enjoy" what's being asked if they feel like they are doing it/practising for a purpose... just like that lady said on the film.


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## GeorgeyGal (5 June 2013)

Taylorsmum - I to enjoy watching Rick Gore on YouTube, he to doesn't mince his words is an understatement! V entertaining to read his replies to 'people problems' also. His thinklikeahorse website is very interesting and worth a read! 

I highly recommend Tom Dorrance's book True Unity. At first I thought where is the step by step guide? But I've realised feel isn't something you can be taught you have to learn from the horse. Very profound how he explains releasing pressure 'after' the horse gives can be too late, try to feel when they are about to give and release so they are not stepping into any pressure. It's something I now practise, it's definitely a skill.

Bucks training DVDs are good to, again not a step by step guide but again you see how close a partnership you can have with a horse.


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## tallyho! (5 June 2013)

Can I just ask, why does it always seem that to have a close relationship with a horse, one has to follow the western doctrines?

How come no-one ever mentions european trainers that have the same closeness? And actually, some of these europeans have a label of being "airy-fairy". It's baffles me a bit.

I just wonder why there is the perception that natural horsemanship HAS to be from America?


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## JillA (5 June 2013)

tallyho! said:



			Can I just ask, why does it always seem that to have a close relationship with a horse, one has to follow the western doctrines?

How come no-one ever mentions european trainers that have the same closeness? And actually, some of these europeans have a label of being "airy-fairy". It's baffles me a bit.

I just wonder why there is the perception that natural horsemanship HAS to be from America?
		
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Good point. I suspect it is because of where they started from - so-called horsemanship in the early days in the US was very harsh - sacking out is one example. Hard people in hard times and they didn't have time to desensitise etc, but unfortunately the habits die hard. Hence the so called Horse Whisperers, a million miles away from waht people were used to. Over here we had the cavalry but we also had professional grooms looking after the mounts and carriage horses of the wealthy, so I guess they had the luxury of more time to spend with the horses. 
Because of the harshness of the horsemanship in the US when someone with humane methods came along they collected a following, like the Dorrance brothers. Over here lots of people were used to being kinder to their horses and able to see things from the horse's viewpoint. That's how I see it - and also I suspect because there are more women around horses in Europe, and women don't have the strength for all out battles, nor the egos


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## hairycob (5 June 2013)

Sadly there are still people in Britain who use brutal methods to subdue horses. To my horror I have witnessed it in the last couple of weeks.


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## Norfolk Pie (5 June 2013)

I'm intrigued by this. Whilst I in no way doubt Bucks ability, feel and talent with horses, if I posted the following I think I'd have got shot down wouldn't I?
Or have I missed something? Admittedly I didn't see the whole programme, but I ink I saw everything of this horse.
*******************************************************************************************************************************
HHO please help me! I've got a 3yo that has been sent to me to back, he's so aggressive he is unhandleable, the owner doesnt seem to have much horse sense, and has given him no boundries.  she wants him done ASAP though, so I thought id crack on and get sitting on him. I've never seen anything like him. I've done a bit of round pen work with him the first couple of days, and then managed to catch him by his hind leg, to get a saddle on him. (The rope on the hind leg is the only way to ensure I've got control of him, as he will attack with his teeth)

Anyway, got a saddle on, got a rider on and sent him round the pen, walk trot canter (still had the rope so my jockey wasn't in danger)

That was all good, by the end he was pretty sweaty, and I don't think he looked very sound when he walked out the pen, but I figure that's less important than getting him broken?

Anyway, next time my rider goes in there, the horse goes for him, and bites his face , needing stitches.

Do you think I've gone too quick with the backing process?

***************************************************************************************************************************

I dont have a massive issue with the hind leg roping, within the right context - I appreciate different techniques within different countries.

I do agree the horse should have been shot.

I do agree the horse needed a seriously good horseman, almost certainly using a good form of horsemanship, (although there are some area of that which I find odd, but that is probably because I don't see the whole picture)

What I can't understand is why we think a horse with massive issues with humans will lose its aggression when concurrently being asked to carry someone in three paces in a very short space of time? I should think he was pretty sore and uncomfortable, so only adding to the issue.

It is precisely this "in a hurry" attitude that makes me avoid backing / starting / problem solving clinics like the plague. There are no short cuts, and I detest all these shows that offer them.


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## Tinypony (5 June 2013)

tallyho! said:



			Can I just ask, why does it always seem that to have a close relationship with a horse, one has to follow the western doctrines?

How come no-one ever mentions european trainers that have the same closeness? And actually, some of these europeans have a label of being "airy-fairy". It's baffles me a bit.

I just wonder why there is the perception that natural horsemanship HAS to be from America?
		
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I don't know really, it's not a view I've ever subscribed to.
It's a bit like people saying they want to "do" some sort of nh or maybe less BHS training because they want to get a "bond" with their horse.


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## doriangrey (5 June 2013)

I believe that this particular horse would have been almost impossible to rehabilitate whatever the methods used but I definitely see your point Norfolk Pie.  The owner had simply ruined him, Buck knew he couldn't 'fix' it and that's why he sent it packing (I wouldn't have been in the round pen with just 2 sticks to defend myself either).  I know it's not always possible to get a foster mare and I bet there are people on here who have successfully hand-reared a foal but luckily it's not something I've ever had to do and it would've been an absolute last resort.  Shame, because he was a beauty but terribly damaged and probably very unhappy.


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## siennamum (5 June 2013)

I think we have always had natural and intuitive horsemen in the UK. Our culture/tradition is to take months to handle, back & ride away young horses tho. which is much less dramatic and too boring & too much like hard work for people who want a magic solution to their inability to manage their horses.
When you see local nagsmen, they are as often as not barely articulate, let alone able to create a Youtube vidoe series. they will get the horse cantering around a sizeable course of jumps and hacking through heavy traffic in a snaffle & with a smile on it's face tho.

Does Lucy Rees not count as a UK person? Why is the work of people like Reiner Klimke not seen as horsemanship or any less worthy than Buck B's?


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## Tinypony (5 June 2013)

Norfolk Pie, I think the difficulty was that it wasn't a problem horse clinic, and it wasn't really a clinic for backing difficult to start horses.  The conversation between the organisers shown in the film really rang a bell with me, as I've been there.  It's "This person has brought this horse along that has far too many issues to address to attempt in 4 days.  And we can't have them in the arena with everyone else because there will be bodies all over the floor.  And anyway, if we did it would spoil it for all the other paying customers because they wouldn't get their fair share of attention...".
My guess at what Buck was trying to do when he worked with the stallion in the round pen and roped the leg was that he was having a last-ditch look at whether he thought the horse could be safely dealt with by someone else after he'd gone.  He probably kicked himself when the experienced bloke he thought would be OK got hurt, but then horses aren't an exact science.  To be fair, he wasn't offering that owner a quick-fix solution, but trying to work with the situation he was presented with. Leg roping is really controversial, but I leg rope all of mine and never have a strong reaction maybe because it's more instinctive in a horse to have a think about something around their leg than it is to just go mad and run away.  (Think about how they survive various natural obstacles around the leg).  
I know how this situation arises because I've hosted clinics where I've been ready to just give someone their money back and send them and their horse home.  But then I have the trainer worrying about that owner and saying that maybe if they could at least do something to send that person back safer than they arrived... and what if we do an hour or so at the end of each day rather than having them in the main clinic... Then the next thing we know the trainer is getting slated all over the internet for being too tough on the horse, or on the person, when ideally they wouldn't have chosen to deal with it in that environment at all.
(Just to be clear - this does not refer to anyone of my Kent friends and contacts OK??).
Maybe other trainers with another approach, who weren't due to be back on the road in 3 days, could have dealt with that sad, scared and aggressive stallion differently.  But they weren't there to offer were they?  Really sad to think about it.


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## Tinypony (5 June 2013)

p.s.  We've had Monty Roberts acclaimed as The Horse Whisperer.  Now the BBC publicise Buck as The Real Horse Whisperer (not a title he gives himself).  Apparently Mark Rashid is working on his film at the moment.  Maybe "Here's another Horse Whisperer"?
)


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## Amaranta (5 June 2013)

Absolutely, Bucks was authenticated by friends and family, Monty's was strenuously denied by his family.


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## DabDab (5 June 2013)

siennamum said:



			I think we have always had natural and intuitive horsemen in the UK. Our culture/tradition is to take months to handle, back & ride away young horses tho. which is much less dramatic and too boring & too much like hard work for people who want a magic solution to their inability to manage their horses.
		
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Hit the nail on the head. It's the 'seeing the horse change in front of your eyes' thing that captivates people. It is easy to understand why people who had never had access to traditional European horse trainers would assume that they take their time with a young horse because they can't take it any quicker, rather than understanding that it is generally a deliberate decision to take things slower. And when you believe that someone can achieve in a day what traditional trainers can only achieve in weeks or even months then it is not a huge jump to assume that they may have a magic answer to all your horse's problems.


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## Equilibrium Ireland (5 June 2013)

I think the thing that differs with Buck and other accomplished horseman at the top of their particular profession, their particular profession. If you train UL dressage horses, chances are when that horse comes to you he/she has already been started and you work your magic from there. How many times have I said that starting horses is a skill set just like being Carl Hester or Reiner Klimke or John.Whitaker. The problem with being a horse starter and dealing with problem horses is that peope don't see it that way. People with young horses they send away are really mostly concerned with cost and how long til I can ride and when can I start training with real professionals. If people treated sending their horse away with the same intent of winning at whatever level there would be more quality starters around instead of just anybody who thinks they can have a go. Trust me it's not easy. A lot of people don't care who starts said horse they just want it done. They don't think like that when looking for an instructor or in their plans for hitting the big time. 

Oh and lots of women in horses in America. Don't know where that comes from. Where do you all get these things.

Terri


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## fburton (5 June 2013)

siennamum said:



			Does Lucy Rees not count as a UK person?
		
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She certainly does. There was a documentary made by HTV in 1983 called "To Ride a Wild Horse". It showed a challenge between Lucy and a "cowboy" she met in her travels in Arizona - who could break and ride a mustang first, chosen from a herd that had been rounded up and corralled. He used ropes and sacking out on his chosen horse, a gelding (we saw a castration done without anaesthetic in the middle of the corral); she sat at the side of her round pen, read a book and waited for her young stallion (she didn't want to put him through the op) to come and investigate her. After a lot of fighting by the cowboy and gentle desensitization by Lucy, it ended up with her exploring the local countryside - walking through streams and into a cave at one point - bareback on her horse, having clearly won the challenge.

She also wrote a wonderful book "The Horse's Mind". 

http://www.amazon.co.uk/The-Horses-Mind-Lucy-Rees/dp/009153660X


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## DabDab (5 June 2013)

Equilibrium Ireland said:



			I think the thing that differs with Buck and other accomplished horseman at the top of their particular profession, their particular profession. If you train UL dressage horses, chances are when that horse comes to you he/she has already been started and you work your magic from there. How many times have I said that starting horses is a skill set just like being Carl Hester or Reiner Klimke or John.Whitaker. The problem with being a horse starter and dealing with problem horses is that peope don't see it that way. People with young horses they send away are really mostly concerned with cost and how long til I can ride and when can I start training with real professionals. If people treated sending their horse away with the same intent of winning at whatever level there would be more quality starters around instead of just anybody who thinks they can have a go. Trust me it's not easy. A lot of people don't care who starts said horse they just want it done. They don't think like that when looking for an instructor or in their plans for hitting the big time. 

Oh and lots of women in horses in America. Don't know where that comes from. Where do you all get these things.

Terri
		
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You are completely right  Starting young horses used to be my main line of work, but I haven't done any (other than my own) for a couple of years because I used to find it so frustrating. Very few owners were interested in discussing their horse's history or long-term plans with me, they just wanted me to slap on a saddle and get on its back. The 'problem' horses that came to me were generally much more rewarding because the owners were really actively involved, almost without exception.


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## JillA (5 June 2013)

Lots of women in horses in America - yes, there probably are now, but go back a couple of generations, the the 70s or thereabouts. 
Here, local shows, pony clubs, riding clubs - ratio of girls to boys, probably at least 10 to 1, I can't recall any lads at the DIY yard I kept my horse at or the local shows (apart from a very few pot hunters).  Girls with their mums, rarely dads, I suspect you will find the same sort of proportions of kids at riding stables. 
USA - I don't really know for certain but a couple of generations ago womens place was in the home, mens was on the farm, in the corral, whatever. Traditional American rural society was very much behind here in terms of equality, and many horses were working rather than pleasure horses. From what I have seen yes there are a lot of women in horses there now, but how many female trainers do you know there?


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## siennamum (5 June 2013)

fburton said:



			She certainly does. There was a documentary made by HTV in 1983 called "To Ride a Wild Horse". It showed a challenge between Lucy and a "cowboy" she met in her travels in Arizona - who could break and ride a mustang first, chosen from a herd that had been rounded up and corralled. He used ropes and sacking out on his chosen horse, a gelding (we saw a castration done without anaesthetic in the middle of the corral); she sat at the side of her round pen, read a book and waited for her young stallion (she didn't want to put him through the op) to come and investigate her. After a lot of fighting by the cowboy and gentle desensitization by Lucy, it ended up with her exploring the local countryside - walking through streams and into a cave at one point - bareback on her horse, having clearly won the challenge.

She also wrote a wonderful book "The Horse's Mind". 

http://www.amazon.co.uk/The-Horses-Mind-Lucy-Rees/dp/009153660X

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No one talks about her though, which suprises me, although I suspect it  has to do with her being a behaviourist (or something like that) rather than a natural horsemanship person. The wet hills of Wales are rather less glamorous than Montana also I think (although I believe she is now based in Portugal)


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## MotherOfChickens (5 June 2013)

siennamum said:



			No one talks about her though, which suprises me, although I suspect it  has to do with her being a behaviourist (or something like that) rather than a natural horsemanship person. The wet hills of Wales are rather less glamorous than Montana also I think (although I believe she is now based in Portugal)
		
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I think that because she's not a cowboy, she's just not 'interesting' enough.doesn't have the accent, doesn't have the marketing machine and doubt she wants it.

all of her books are well worth a read.


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## tallyho! (5 June 2013)

Norfolk Pie said:



			I'm intrigued by this. Whilst I in no way doubt Bucks ability, feel and talent with horses, if I posted the following I think I'd have got shot down wouldn't I?
Or have I missed something? Admittedly I didn't see the whole programme, but I ink I saw everything of this horse.
***************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************
HHO please help me! I've got a 3yo that has been sent to me to back, he's so aggressive he is unhandleable, the owner doesnt seem to have much horse sense, and has given him no boundries.  she wants him done ASAP though, so I thought id crack on and get sitting on him. I've never seen anything like him. I've done a bit of round pen work with him the first couple of days, and then managed to catch him by his hind leg, to get a saddle on him. (The rope on the hind leg is the only way to ensure I've got control of him, as he will attack with his teeth)

Anyway, got a saddle on, got a rider on and sent him round the pen, walk trot canter (still had the rope so my jockey wasn't in danger)

That was all good, by the end he was pretty sweaty, and I don't think he looked very sound when he walked out the pen, but I figure that's less important than getting him broken?

Anyway, next time my rider goes in there, the horse goes for him, and bites his face , needing stitches.

Do you think I've gone too quick with the backing process?

***********************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************

I dont have a massive issue with the hind leg roping, within the right context - I appreciate different techniques within different countries.

I do agree the horse should have been shot.

I do agree the horse needed a seriously good horseman, almost certainly using a good form of horsemanship, (although there are some area of that which I find odd, but that is probably because I don't see the whole picture)

What I can't understand is why we think a horse with massive issues with humans will lose its aggression when concurrently being asked to carry someone in three paces in a very short space of time? I should think he was pretty sore and uncomfortable, so only adding to the issue.

It is precisely this "in a hurry" attitude that makes me avoid backing / starting / problem solving clinics like the plague. There are no short cuts, and I detest all these shows that offer them.
		
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Lets be fair... that was a one off and my best guess was it was to make an example of how NOT to bring up a horse.

Most of the other riders/handlers at the clinics they showed were fine.


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## diamonddogs (5 June 2013)

Did you notice that Stupid Woman hadn't seen fit to mention to Buck that she had all those others at home? She commented that she didn't know what he'd say if he knew. 

I think that this kind of training is so popular in the States is because the old cowboy methods are very aggressive. I've noticed that the top trainers and PP are nearly all from cowboy stock, so my guess is that they've sought a kinder way.

Here in the UK we generally don't throw our horses to the ground etc to break their spirit (though we sometimes do it in other ways), and like someone said earlier, these are working horses and perhaps the good ole boys simply don't have the time and resources to do what they would see as faffing around for six months.


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## tallyho! (5 June 2013)

Tinypony said:



			p.s.  We've had Monty Roberts acclaimed as The Horse Whisperer.  Now the BBC publicise Buck as The Real Horse Whisperer (not a title he gives himself).  Apparently Mark Rashid is working on his film at the moment.  Maybe "Here's another Horse Whisperer"?
)
		
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Ah well, not a bad thing is it  the more the merrier when it comes to horses/good horsemanship


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## Aarrghimpossiblepony (5 June 2013)

Well just watched the program (thank you to the posters who gave the link).

Having read the first several pages of enthusiastic praise find myself thinking "is that it"?

Nice man, terrible childhood, earns a living, got a great accent.
The rest no, you can keep it.
I'm in agreement with Norfolk Pie.

And if that 3yo colt was just used as an example of how not to deal with a horse, then anybody involved with the program is just as exploitative as any of those who usually are castigated.

Where was the compassion for that horse?
And there may well have been scenes that were cut from the program, but that is a deliberate editing decision.
So why would anybody want the overall message to go out that when a really bad, problem horse comes along, with so little time being spent trying to make a difference, a decision can be made to PTS?

Quick fix or no fix?


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## Suechoccy (5 June 2013)

Tinypony said:



			Norfolk Pie, I think the difficulty was that it wasn't a problem horse clinic, and it wasn't really a clinic for backing difficult to start horses.  The conversation between the organisers shown in the film really rang a bell with me, as I've been there.  It's "This person has brought this horse along that has far too many issues to address to attempt in 4 days.  And we can't have them in the arena with everyone else because there will be bodies all over the floor.  And anyway, if we did it would spoil it for all the other paying customers because they wouldn't get their fair share of attention...".

I know how this situation arises because I've hosted clinics where I've been ready to just give someone their money back and send them and their horse home.  But then I have the trainer worrying about that owner and saying that maybe if they could at least do something to send that person back safer than they arrived... and what if we do an hour or so at the end of each day rather than having them in the main clinic... Then the next thing we know the trainer is getting slated all over the internet for being too tough on the horse, or on the person, when ideally they wouldn't have chosen to deal with it in that environment at all.
		
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Sensible words from Tinypony.  As I watched, I hoped the colt was worked on OUTSIDE of the timings of the day's published clinic had ended for the sake of all the lovely clients and lovely young horses who'd signed-up for a colt starting clinic.    Very difficult situation for a trainer to find themselves in, refuse to do anything and you run the risk of being labelled a useless trainer, do something in un-ideal circumstances and you run the risk of being labelled a useless trainer,  a no-win situation for any trainer.

That colt needed a one-to-one assessment over a longer period of time at its home so that the trainer could see firsthand whatever the home setup was and whether it was ever likely to work or whether it was doomed to failure, and spend much longer with the owner to weigh them up too, without the television cameras and spectators.  It would have been a huge shock to a house-reared horse to be put on a trailer and travelled to the venue, full of strange people and horses.   I still think that particular horse was utterly ruined, by its upbringing, and would have had a long road back to any sort of normality and an even longer road back to a point where humans could feel they could trust his behaviour.


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## tallyho! (5 June 2013)

Aarrghimpossiblepony said:



			Well just watched the program (thank you to the posters who gave the link).

Having read the first several pages of enthusiastic praise find myself thinking "is that it"?

Nice man, terrible childhood, earns a living, got a great accent.
The rest no, you can keep it.
I'm in agreement with Norfolk Pie.

And if that 3yo colt was just used as an example of how not to deal with a horse, then anybody involved with the program is just as exploitative as any of those who usually are castigated.

Where was the compassion for that horse?
And there may well have been scenes that were cut from the program, but that is a deliberate editing decision.
So why would anybody want the overall message to go out that when a really bad, problem horse comes along, with so little time being spent trying to make a difference, a decision can be made to PTS?

Quick fix or no fix?
		
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Why wouldn't you make an example of that situation? Should we shield people from such a reality? 

I agree though, no attempt should have even been made to try and start him but I guess an assessment was made by the trainer to see if it was worth it in the long run... 

The most compassionate thing that could have happened is not to have revived the poor thing when it was born


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## Caol Ila (5 June 2013)

JillA said:



			Lots of women in horses in America - yes, there probably are now, but go back a couple of generations, the the 70s or thereabouts. 
Here, local shows, pony clubs, riding clubs - ratio of girls to boys, probably at least 10 to 1, I can't recall any lads at the DIY yard I kept my horse at or the local shows (apart from a very few pot hunters).  Girls with their mums, rarely dads, I suspect you will find the same sort of proportions of kids at riding stables. 
USA - I don't really know for certain but a couple of generations ago womens place was in the home, mens was on the farm, in the corral, whatever. Traditional American rural society was very much behind here in terms of equality, and many horses were working rather than pleasure horses. From what I have seen yes there are a lot of women in horses there now, but how many female trainers do you know there?
		
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In spite of what Fox News might have you believe, "traditional American society" was just as diverse as the immigrants who moved there and the geography of the place.  In any case, I know lots of female trainers.  In fact, in the 16 or so years I learned to ride there, all but one of my trainers were women (and the lone guy was from Germany).  Like all but an insignificant minority of trainers, they have not become international brands, but they have good reputations locally.  

There are, of course, female trainers who have become well known outside of their immediate areas.  Offhand, I can think of Sally Swift, Linda Tellington-Jones, Julie Goodnight, Carolyn Resnick, Mary Twelveponies... just a few that come to mind sitting here being kind of jetlagged.  There are far more than that.


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## Norfolk Pie (5 June 2013)

Tinypony said:



			Norfolk Pie, I think the difficulty was that it wasn't a problem horse clinic, and it wasn't really a clinic for backing difficult to start horses.  The conversation between the organisers shown in the film really rang a bell with me, as I've been there.  It's "This person has brought this horse along that has far too many issues to address to attempt in 4 days.  And we can't have them in the arena with everyone else because there will be bodies all over the floor.  And anyway, if we did it would spoil it for all the other paying customers because they wouldn't get their fair share of attention...".

*Totally agree with you. Completely impossible, no win situation. My query was what was the purpose of getting a rider on a horse that, psychologically had massive issues, and therefore physically was unprepared (which would have been commented on if someone on here said  - "sat on the boulshy breaking horse today, walk trot canter. Thing is still totally lethal to handle" 
*
My guess at what Buck was trying to do when he worked with the stallion in the round pen and roped the leg was that he was having a last-ditch look at whether he thought the horse could be safely dealt with by someone else after he'd gone.  

*That's fair enough - as I said, no real view either way on the leg roping, I appreciate its a technique used*.

I know how this situation arises because I've hosted clinics where I've been ready to just give someone their money back and send them and their horse home.  But then I have the trainer worrying about that owner and saying that maybe if they could at least do something to send that person back safer than they arrived... and what if we do an hour or so at the end of each day rather than having them in the main clinic... Then the next thing we know the trainer is getting slated all over the internet for being too tough on the horse, or on the person, when ideally they wouldn't have chosen to deal with it in that environment at all.
		
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Totally agree with this too. I think all of us have moments where we arrive somewhere and think "oh Lordy, you can not be serious". But the thing is, the horse HAS to come first. There is NOTHING more important than us, as professionals doing the right thing by that horse. When someone asks me to teach them on a lame horse, I explain why that's inappropriate. I do the same if their horse is too thin, or the saddle doesn't fit, or it's back is sore. or, frequently, when a young, poorly muscled horse cant hold its balance in trot, how on earth they think it will cope in canter?
 In my mind, it's a non negotiable part of my job - I'm there to assist the horse, and try act as "voice" between him and his (often novice) owner. 
And you know what, yes of course there's the odd person who thinks I'm as mad as a box of frogs, but if I present them with scientific facts (ie, your horse can not cope with A B C, so how do you feel about asking him to cope with X Y or Z?) it is very rare for the owner to be difficult. 99% of the time, they ask "ok, so realistically, what do I do from here?"

So I still don't understand what backing the horse in this instance was achieving? Genuine question, I'm not being critical


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## Aarrghimpossiblepony (5 June 2013)

tallyho! said:



*Why wouldn't you make an example of that situation? Should we shield people from such a reality?* 

I agree though, no attempt should have even been made to try and start him but I guess an assessment was made by the trainer to see if it was worth it in the long run... 

The most compassionate thing that could have happened is not to have revived the poor thing when it was born 

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No, but without follow through it's exploiting a bad situation.

My daughter pulls me up for this all the time, but I am very, very cynical when it comes to these kind of "real life" documentries.

The decision to send the trainer who got hurt into the pen with no back up and then instruct them to carry on like he did, sorry but it screams set up to me.
Not suggesting that they wanted an injury, but they wanted the horse to react.

The thing is, maybe I'm wrong, but flapping a blanket around in a stallions face and at the same time not allowing the "flee" response seems to be asking for a fight response.

What did they expect?
Especially in light of the behaviour they had already seen and the testimony of the owner.

If what we saw damns a 3yo to be PTS, then there must be some very lucky horses around.
And the thing is, if the horse was worth a fortune for breeding, some underpaid stablehand would be expected to manage the horse. And they probably would.

Nice enough program but would have preferred to see a lot more handling than interminable rope tricks and folksy homespun philosophy TBH.


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## Tinypony (5 June 2013)

siennamum said:



			No one talks about her though...  etc.../QUOTE]
Don't they?  I think I inhabit an alternative universe.

There is a brief bit in the film that makes it clear that the organisers were going to arrange for the young stallion to be looked at away from the clinic.

Why did a rider get put on board?  We can only speculate.  We certainly didn't see the full picture, discussions that took place with the owner, loads of stuff went on the cutting room floor for sure.
		
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## Tinypony (5 June 2013)

I'm reminded of what he said about The Horse Whisperer - something along the lines of it being a film of a love story, not a film about horse training. This is a film that's more about Buck the person, it's not intended to be an in-depth view of how he trains and what his thinking is about that.
Shame that the thing with the stallion has overshadowed the rest of the film really. When you consider that, from the brief clip of the discussion between the clinic organisers, the stallion probably wasn't a suitable clinic horse anyway and maybe shouldn't have been there.


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## lastchancer (5 June 2013)

MotherOfChickens said:



			I think that because she's not a cowboy, she's just not 'interesting' enough.doesn't have the accent, doesn't have the marketing machine and doubt she wants it.

all of her books are well worth a read.[/QUOTE

People just luuuurrve a cowboy... It's that simple. 
And of course Lucy is a woman so can't possibly be as good or as interesting as the boys in stetsons and cowboy boots.....
		
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## flyingfeet (5 June 2013)

Man it is so easy to sit on the sidelines and criticize

I think all these trainers are beneficial to horses as they are not condoning using violence on your horses. 

So many people are willing to pick up a stick without thought, so frankly whether its Buck, Monty or someone else, I would rather have it on tv than not


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## Equilibrium Ireland (5 June 2013)

Sometimes I think we need to think about what we're commenting on. How many people have started multiple/hundreds of horses? What perspective do you have in real life for such horses? Telling someone there horse is lame or too skinny is not in the same category. Some horses can do a quick and dramatic turn around by being started. Yes, that's true. They have a whole new perspective on life. Life gets easier for them. To a degree you see this with spoiled over handled youngsters. Not aggressive as shown. But watching a few little clips and saying this should have been differently, really how do you know? Sitting in a field with a book wasn't going to get the job done here. But sadly some people think it would. Softly softly bonding lands you dead or seriously injured. Why is it hard to accept that a horse can be well and truly screwed up by spoiling and never laying down boundries? No we're to into those words abuse and rescue. Instead of using that word bond try mutual respect. It might make things easier for horses. This is a case in which a come to Jesus meeting in a non beating way was necessary. Why that's so hard to undetstand is beyond me. And maybe had Buck decided to give this woman free instruction for a year or two it could have been done slowly to suit people. But I don't work for free so why should anyone in horses that make a living out of it? Don't get me started on that subject. 

Anyway must go to feed.

Terri


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## lastchancer (5 June 2013)

^^^Very good post.


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## Aarrghimpossiblepony (5 June 2013)

Equilibrium Ireland said:



			Sometimes I think we need to think about what we're commenting on. How many people have started multiple/hundreds of horses? What perspective do you have in real life for such horses? Telling someone there horse is lame or too skinny is not in the same category. Some horses can do a quick and dramatic turn around by being started. Yes, that's true. They have a whole new perspective on life. Life gets easier for them. To a degree you see this with spoiled over handled youngsters. Not aggressive as shown. But watching a few little clips and saying this should have been differently, really how do you know? Sitting in a field with a book wasn't going to get the job done here. But sadly some people think it would. Softly softly bonding lands you dead or seriously injured. Why is it hard to accept that a horse can be well and truly screwed up by spoiling and never laying down boundries? No we're to into those words abuse and rescue. Instead of using that word bond try mutual respect. It might make things easier for horses. *This is a case in which a come to Jesus meeting in a non beating way was necessary. Why that's so hard to undetstand is beyond me.* And maybe had Buck decided to give this woman free instruction for a year or two it could have been done slowly to suit people. But I don't work for free so why should anyone in horses that make a living out of it? Don't get me started on that subject. 

Anyway must go to feed.

Terri
		
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Who has expressed anything here that you are saying?

The BIB
It's not just the method, it was the half hearted approach for the benefit of the cameras that got me with the 3yo.

They showed the initial session (and what that achieved I still don't know) and then followed it up with something that was incredibly negligent.

And then it was blamed on the horse.

You talk about "boundries" and "mutual respect" but how about repecting the horses boundries, having some respect for the idea that flinging a blanket around when the horse doesn't actually know at that point whether it's coming or going, is going to end in tears? 

Over and over, it's repeated about not getting into battles you can't win, but that goes out the window when faced with a problem?
And in the initial session with the 3yo, how much release of pressure was in evidence as reward for compliance?
No it went on and on, comply with the rope round the foot, comply with the saddle, comply with the rider, comply with the cantering/go forward, ect.


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## fburton (5 June 2013)

All good points, Aarrgh.


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## Equilibrium Ireland (5 June 2013)

How many horses like this have you done? I've started hundreds and never come across any like this. Respect for the horse? Boundries none established by his idiot owner and yet she signed up for a clinic to have her horse worked with. Tell her to go home I guess is what you think is right. Maybe so. Flinging a saddle blanket around is hardly an abusive approach. He didn't understand. He understood nothing. The only thing he understood was to get he own way and do what he wanted when he wanted. So how do you start? Do tell. Keep in mind you don't own the horse and this is your living. You gonna do this for free so you can give horse all the time he needs. Just curious as people are quick to criticise and yet don't have much experience in this area. Nor do they have to balance making a living while doing the best for the horse and getting paid by an owner who has their own timeframe. 

Terri


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## Aarrghimpossiblepony (5 June 2013)

fburton said:



			All good points, Aarrgh.
		
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Thank you.

The phrase which springs to mind watching all these trainers is,

"he's not the messiah........"


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## Aarrghimpossiblepony (5 June 2013)

Equilibrium Ireland said:



			How many horses like this have you done? I've started hundreds and never come across any like this. Respect for the horse? Boundries none established by his idiot owner and yet she signed up for a clinic to have her horse worked with. Tell her to go home I guess is what you think is right. Maybe so. Flinging a saddle blanket around is hardly an abusive approach. He didn't understand. He understood nothing. The only thing he understood was to get he own way and do what he wanted when he wanted. So how do you start? Do tell. Keep in mind you don't own the horse and this is your living. You gonna do this for free so you can give horse all the time he needs. Just curious as people are quick to criticise and yet don't have much experience in this area. Nor do they have to balance making a living while doing the best for the horse and getting paid by an owner who has their own timeframe. 

Terri
		
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It's not whether it's an abusive approach, it's whether it's an effective approach. Incremental steps to achieve the goal.

The rope foot thing, well build on that. Throw the blanket around using the foot control, pressure and release, build the boundries, show the horse that there is reward in compliance and punishment (pressure) when their isn't.

That which they singularly failed to do in the initial session.

You say the horse understands nothing, I agree, so why make the assumption that it does?
That a bloke flinging a blanket around is something the horse should be well scared of and respect?
Would have thought that much was self evident.
It's been brought up in a house FGS, I reckon blankets might have crossed it's path at some point.

The horse was compared to a predator (LOL), how many lion tamers use a blanket?

You seem to have the most problem with the idea of somebody doing this work for free.
But where was money ever mentioned?
The woman I assume paid for the clinic, the clinic wasn't suitable (was that made clear in the advertising, I don't know), so the follow on should be "this is what you need to do, this is how much it will cost".
Only then if that was turned down, can you make accusations that people want this training for free.


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## templewood (5 June 2013)

Flinging a saddle balnket around isn't an abusive approach to you or me, but how does a frightened stallion view it? I'm surprised that Buck hadn't come across horses like this one before, or at least similar ones that weren't so extreme.  

It seems to me that Americans don't like their horses to have any spirit, and any horse that shows some must have brain damage/a brain tumor/personality disorder or anything else they can think of to account for why they have failed in their particular method. Why can't they entertained the notion that one size doesn't fit all and that their's isn't the only way?

This horse was very frightened and scewed up and I'm not suggesting that he was just spirited by the way!

Anyway. must go and get my stallion in.


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## diamonddogs (5 June 2013)

Aarrghimpossiblepony said:



			...And then it was blamed on the horse...
		
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No it wasn't. He laid the blame squarely at the door of the owner.


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## Equilibrium Ireland (5 June 2013)

I'm asking you what you'd do because you are adamant it's wrong so what would you do. Yes I put getting paid for in there because people with their own horses love to go on about the years they spent fixing Dobbin. That's not the same. And yeah she paid for the clinic. She wanted her horse worked with. A horse she didn't really tell how bad he was til arrival. So they tried an approach that is not needed for 99% of horses and guess what it annoyed people because they couldn't undo 3 years of stupidity of owner for the movie. So now we critise because we know it all.

And no one blamed the horse. Stating what he is is not blaming him. But you clearly know different. What guidelines does the BHS have for these types of horses? What level is that? 

As far as what I would have done. Well I'm sorry I wouldn't raise a horse into a monster to start and haven't. What would I do if I was asked to take something like this on? Be honest and say I don't have the skills necessary to deal with this situation. I sure wouldn't pretend I do. Nor criticise a method for dealing with these types. OWNER made types. Blaming the lack of oxygen is no good either. More proper work was needed from the get go instead of feeling sorry for him and babying him along. Would you baby a 2 1/2 month foal that had a head injury that you found flipping over non stop and totally blind in a terrible panic? If she lived would you always let her away with everything just because of the traumatic circumstances? Glad I didn't do that with my lived against the odds 7 yo. And believe me I wanted to. I wanted to put everything down to her head injury. Thankfully my husband is a much better horseman and quite blunt. 

Terri


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## Tinypony (5 June 2013)

Buck never blamed the horse.  Watch it again and quote any instance where he did.
He isn't responsible for what people on the edge of the arena or sitting around nattering might say, but he never blamed the horse.  The closest he came to blame was what he said about the owner.
And... I've just deleted a whole screed because it's kind of not worth the effort really is it?  I have read some very critical stuff posted on the Net in the last day or so by some people who have also been reading about a situation where they could have offered some support and possibly help.  A chance to put "positive" principles into practice and help a person they knew. But they stayed in their armchairs.  So, at least Buck is out there and trying to help, even if he's only a mere mortal and maybe gets some things wrong.
So this is for all of the do-ers, even if sometimes their feet turn to clay.


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## Equilibrium Ireland (5 June 2013)

Are you freaking kidding me? Well this just keeps getting better. Americans don't want their horses to have any spirit? OMG. Forest for the trees. You think that horse was just spirited? 

Bye, been fun. 

Terri


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## mle22 (5 June 2013)

In a lot of ways it's irrelevant how that colt got to be the way it was - it had become a dangerous and vicious animal and the best thing to do is PTS. I can't think of a single good reason not to do it.


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## Norfolk Pie (5 June 2013)

Equilibrium Ireland said:



			I'm asking you what you'd do because you are adamant it's wrong so what would you do. Yes I put getting paid for in there because people with their own horses love to go on about the years they spent fixing Dobbin. That's not the same. And yeah she paid for the clinic. She wanted her horse worked with. A horse she didn't really tell how bad he was til arrival. So they tried an approach that is not needed for 99% of horses and guess what it annoyed people because they couldn't undo 3 years of stupidity of owner for the movie. So now we critise because we know it all.

And no one blamed the horse. Stating what he is is not blaming him. But you clearly know different. What guidelines does the BHS have for these types of horses? What level is that? 

As far as what I would have done. Well I'm sorry I wouldn't raise a horse into a monster to start and haven't. What would I do if I was asked to take something like this on? Be honest and say I don't have the skills necessary to deal with this situation. I sure wouldn't pretend I do. Nor criticise a method for dealing with these types. OWNER made types. Blaming the lack of oxygen is no good either. More proper work was needed from the get go instead of feeling sorry for him and babying him along. Would you baby a 2 1/2 month foal that had a head injury that you found flipping over non stop and totally blind in a terrible panic? If she lived would you always let her away with everything just because of the traumatic circumstances? Glad I didn't do that with my lived against the odds 7 yo. And believe me I wanted to. I wanted to put everything down to her head injury. Thankfully my husband is a much better horseman and quite blunt. 

Terri
		
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I actually completely agree with you Terri - I enjoy reading your posts and always think how much experience and common sense comes across in them.
My issue here is not that I would have had better ideas, simply I can't see what the backing process was aiming to achieve?
The horse had been totally and utterly spoilt, in every sense of the word. We don't know what else was happening in her life, I'd hazard a guess at quite a lot, so I'm not going to call her stupid or incompetent, because I suspect she knows that. But yes, she is 100% responsible for that horses problems. And *if* she wasn't prepared to do more than a clinic to try and resolve it, the responsible tng would have been to have the horse Shot.

But the point is she went to a renowned trainer, who quickly assessed the root of the problem, but I should think was caught between a rock and a hard place. So my question is still "please can someone who is saying how fantastic he is (not saying he's not!) PLEASE tell me why backing it was going to equal progress?

Why do I think this is an issue? Because you know as well as I (and as you said in an earlier post)that owners have this strange idea that backing horses is "bash bash bosh, now off they go and do their competitive job"

So it does mildly irk me when things like this are held up as being so marvellous, because to me it's just telling people, "hey, run before you can walk, no groundwork needed"


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## tallyho! (5 June 2013)

I don't think that stallion was frightened. I don't think anything would frighten a horse that high on its own testosterone and was clearly not liking being told he is not boss. He was flinging his manly hood around and sniffing like some sex crazed lunatic. 

Isn't that we tell horses everyday? That we are the boss now, do as you are told. The basis of training, the very foundation to get them to respect you as master?

How is it different to the police force here rubbing plastic bags on new recruits and making them walk on tarpaulins or run through smoke?

They were trying to give him a chance, not try and kill him with a sack. Compassion shouldn't come into it... Once you start talking about compassion, well where is the compassion in riding an animal in the first place?


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## Tinypony (5 June 2013)

Email him Norfolk Pie.  We don't know if there was a point where he sat down and said "wish I hadn't done anything with that horse", or maybe told people why he wanted to try a rider on his back.  Pointless to speculate.  As an old-hand clinic organiser, I'd have turned her round and sent her and her horse home before the trainer arrived.  Experience has taught me to avoid putting trainers between that rock and hard place and to make the difficult decisions about the clinics I host.
Oh, and maybe he'll be too busy to reply, but what have you got to lose?


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## Equilibrium Ireland (5 June 2013)

He can and does reply. Well he did to me a couple of years ago. 

NP, going from some of my less experience, starting spoiled over(badly) handled youngsters can give them a totally different outlook. Like the penny drops. Oh this is what it's all about. I'm guessing that was a thought going on because it can and does work. 

Terri


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## LittleBlackMule (5 June 2013)

In that film, when Buck is talking about his childhood, he says that after his abuse he didn't need people tip-toeing around him. His didn't need to discuss it or be treated differently because of it. He needed to WORK, be given a job to do.

I suspect that's why he appeared in a hurry to get the colt ridden (although in reality it took a lot longer as so much footage was cut). Groundwork was not an option, as he himself says in the film, because the horse was too dangerous to be with, and the safest place was on his back.
Hence cutting to the chase and getting him ridden, so he, like Buck, could be given a job to do, and maybe stand a chance. But of course, it was too late..


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## Norfolk Pie (5 June 2013)

Tinypony said:



			Email him Norfolk Pie.  
Oh, and maybe he'll be too busy to reply, but what have you got to lose?
		
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Fair point, and yes I could, and I may, although I could equally ask several other "branded horsemanship" people why they appear to do the same - sort of skip a stage or two - having previously been involved in one with similar (no where near as drastic!) issues (ie not complient on ground, but still ridden, quite erratic at demo and subsequently worse when owner got it home) I got the answer " "audience want to see it"
Lovely person , massive respect for what she does, but that is putting showmanship above horsemanship, which, sadly, destroys a lot of the admiration and respect I have for people.

I would suspect (I don't know, and I'm not pretending to!) that was the case here - good TV, bit of drama, looks impressive if the next stage (which I'm not attributing to the backing) hadn't been quite so .......drastic

My original post was more asking if anyone else here shared the same opinion, or had a better understanding, as everyone was so in favour.  Perhaps I am just too cynical, but if I don't understand something, I tend to be a little hesitant in saying "LEGENDARY"


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## Norfolk Pie (5 June 2013)

Equilibrium Ireland said:



			NP, going from some of my less experience, starting spoiled over(badly) handled youngsters can give them a totally different outlook. Like the penny drops. Oh this is what it's all about. I'm guessing that was a thought going on because it can and does work. 

Terri
		
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Thank you for that - and yes, I can understand that - give them a completely new challenge that they don't have all the answers for, I can imagine would sometimes be enough to turn them around.

Personally, I have questions with expecting horses to cope with mounted walk trot canter in one session, but I appreciate that is my perspective, and I am well aware a lot of people see no problem with it


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## AengusOg (5 June 2013)

JillA said:



			Good point. I suspect it is because of where they started from - so-called horsemanship in the early days in the US was very harsh - sacking out is one example. Hard people in hard times and they didn't have time to desensitise etc, but unfortunately the habits die hard. Hence the so called Horse Whisperers, a million miles away from waht people were used to. Over here we had the cavalry but we also had professional grooms looking after the mounts and carriage horses of the wealthy, so I guess they had the luxury of more time to spend with the horses. 
Because of the harshness of the horsemanship in the US when someone with humane methods came along they collected a following, like the Dorrance brothers. Over here lots of people were used to being kinder to their horses and able to see things from the horse's viewpoint. That's how I see it -
		
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The US was originally populated by native peoples. The were a kinda red colour.  The 'white' people came from all over Europe, Britain included, and they took their horse-handling skills (good and bad) with them.

http://www.houseofnames.com/dorrance-family-crest

That was the way of it.


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## Aarrghimpossiblepony (5 June 2013)

Equilibrium Ireland said:



			I'm asking you what you'd do because you are adamant it's wrong so what would you do. Yes I put getting paid for in there because people with their own horses love to go on about the years they spent fixing Dobbin. That's not the same. And yeah she paid for the clinic. She wanted her horse worked with. A horse she didn't really tell how bad he was til arrival. So they tried an approach that is not needed for 99% of horses and guess what it annoyed people because they couldn't undo 3 years of stupidity of owner for the movie. So now we critise because we know it all.

And no one blamed the horse. Stating what he is is not blaming him. But you clearly know different. What guidelines does the BHS have for these types of horses? What level is that? 

As far as what I would have done. Well I'm sorry I wouldn't raise a horse into a monster to start and haven't. What would I do if I was asked to take something like this on? Be honest and say I don't have the skills necessary to deal with this situation. I sure wouldn't pretend I do. Nor criticise a method for dealing with these types. OWNER made types. Blaming the lack of oxygen is no good either. More proper work was needed from the get go instead of feeling sorry for him and babying him along. Would you baby a 2 1/2 month foal that had a head injury that you found flipping over non stop and totally blind in a terrible panic? If she lived would you always let her away with everything just because of the traumatic circumstances? Glad I didn't do that with my lived against the odds 7 yo. And believe me I wanted to. I wanted to put everything down to her head injury. Thankfully my husband is a much better horseman and quite blunt. 

Terri
		
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I wouldn't do the leg/rope thing because I wouldn't know where to start with it.
But have no qualms about the chap using it if it was effective. And it was to some extent but then it all seemed to get a bit carried away and the principles explained earlier about pressure/release went out the window.

That's where it lost me.

If a person makes an assessment that a horse needs that level of control, then keep it up surely?
After the first day, repeat and consolidate any progress made. And only if progress is made ease up on the control.

I don't understand the thinking that says one session can make so much difference to years of mismanagement.

I agree with Tallyho, I don't think the horse was scared one iota with the blanket thing. Confused, irritated and completely unaware of how he was expected to react. So instead reacted how he always reacted.
So what protection/control did the trainer have at that point?
And how was that supposed to install "boundaries".

It's got to be a rule of thumb surely that you don't get into a losing battle because that's going to make things worse.


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## teabiscuit (5 June 2013)

If that one session is the first time the horse has had to do as he's told that can be the start of a turning point. Didn't seem towork for this horse.


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## diamonddogs (5 June 2013)

I'm wondering why there's some scepticism going on about the horse being brain-damaged. 

Stupid Woman said that the foal was to all intents and purposes stillborn, but they decided to resuscitate (assuming she was telling the truth - I think she was; it's omission and stupidity she was shown to be guilty of, not lying). She didn't seem to know how long it was deprived of oxygen for. So why is it not feasible to some on here that it WAS brain damaged?

If it was my foal, I wouldn't have resuscitated, specially as the mare didn't survive, but if I had done, knowing it might have learning difficulties from the outset, the first time it showed dangerous tendencies I would have had it shot then. Didn't she say she drove a golf cart at it one time to stop it attacking someone, and it ended up attacking her in the cart?

But then I wouldn't have hand reared the foal without expert guidance, in my house, and I wouldn't have potty trained it either.


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## doriangrey (5 June 2013)

I probably keep repeating myself, but the difference between the colt and a 'dominant' kind of horse was miles .... miles apart.  This colt was defending himself - he was acting like a lot of bottle reared horses that know no boundaries, no fear and can produce real savages - I doubt it would have made any difference it he was a gelding or a mare under the circumstances.    However, he was entire and of course had all that kind of resource, intelligence and pride that comes with being a stallion - which in the right hands can be the best kind of horse.  Apparently the owner enrolled in the course without divulging his history or how bad he was (from what I have read and am speculating from the documentary), and she told Buck that he was oxygen deprived from birth and that was the cause of his problems but I believe this kind of revelation came later, almost an excuse from the owner.  After watching the documentary I don't believe Buck knew what he was getting into as I don't believe he would have put his aide in with that poor colt.  I must admit, that Buck knew that this colt was beyond his - or tbh even more traditional starting methods - and that is why he was high-tailed home, and kudos to him for admitting it.  I disagree with him blaming him for being entire for bad behaviour, but he was a pretty cool guy and an amazing horseman.  If there are any animal behaviourists out there they will be able to explain so much better than me how an orpan foal needs upbringing and why proper imprinting and education is so important.  If that colt is fixating its sexuality on humans instead of horses, I'd imagine it would be impossible to change that behaviour now.


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## teabiscuit (5 June 2013)

I've never seen behaviour like that. Thank goodness. In the DVD Buck is shown comforting the clearly distressed owner in one of the extra clips you get. I thought that was cool. Whatever her wrong doings she wasn't deliberately cruel. and her mistakes are educating others.


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## Cortez (5 June 2013)

The only horse I've ever had turn on me was a hand reared orphan (it was a client's horse). I don't think brain damage has anything to do with the colt's disordered personality, but the owner should have a SERIOUS rethink about the way she treats her horses.


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## doriangrey (5 June 2013)

^agree, obviously I don't know for sure, but I don't think it was brain-damaged.  Horses know we are humans and I think that is how we are able to have such symbiosis (spelling?) with them.  When the boundaries become blurred that's when problems occur.


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## AengusOg (5 June 2013)

LittleBlackMule said:



			In that film, when Buck is talking about his childhood, he says that after his abuse he didn't need people tip-toeing around him. His didn't need to discuss it or be treated differently because of it. He needed to WORK, be given a job to do.

I suspect that's why he appeared in a hurry to get the colt ridden (although in reality it took a lot longer as so much footage was cut). Groundwork was not an option, as he himself says in the film, because the horse was too dangerous to be with, and the safest place was on his back.
Hence cutting to the chase and getting him ridden, so he, like Buck, could be given a job to do, and maybe stand a chance. But of course, it was too late..
		
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In that clinic situation, and because the thing was being filmed, Buck may have got carried away and tried too much too soon with that colt. I think he would have been better to have given him the job of sweeping up first, before he threw him at the deep end as head of the company 

The man who was ultimately injured seemed to be in a very vulnerable position much of the time, and at times seemed a little blase in his handling of the horse. He didn't seem to have much instinct for the situation.

Buck said groundwork was not an option, yet he flapped his flag around a bit and, as long as he combined that with advance and retreat, the colt took some notice and was manageable. In my opinion, he should have made alternative arrangements for working the horse over a longer period of time, and trained him from scratch, progressively, over a period of several day or weeks.


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## Tinypony (6 June 2013)

AengusOg said:



			In my opinion, he should have made alternative arrangements for working the horse over a longer period of time, and trained him from scratch, progressively, over a period of several day or weeks.
		
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Do you think that was an option for a trainer who is on the road 9 months of the year?  And, ultimately, it was the owner's responsibility to make long-term provision for her horse, not Buck's.


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## Fellewell (6 June 2013)

I'll lay money there were plenty of things he could have done with that colt (some of which would not meet with HHO's approval) I don't suppose his head lad would have been tiptoeing through the tulips either if the cameras hadn't been on.
But faced with an excuse-laden snivelling owner what was the point? She had neither the wherewithal nor inclination to build on anything he did.
When she was 'pleading' with the colt to load, well, the look on his face said it all.
I thought all cowboys carried a gun.


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## teabiscuit (6 June 2013)

Is that what you would have liked to see fellewell? Some cowboys getting rough?


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## Fellewell (6 June 2013)

You can oversimplify it if you like.


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## YasandCrystal (6 June 2013)

Equilibrium Ireland said:



			He can and does reply. Well he did to me a couple of years ago. 

NP, going from some of my less experience, starting spoiled over(badly) handled youngsters can give them a totally different outlook. Like the penny drops. Oh this is what it's all about. I'm guessing that was a thought going on because it can and does work. 

Terri
		
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^^ Exactly this.  It teaches them some manners and the horse to listen. It's not about the 'riding or competing' at all, it's about acceptance, trust and respect of their handler imo.

Since I have been longreining my 4 yr old her attitude has improved no end. She is far more respectful and has an ear on me


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## tallyho! (6 June 2013)

LOL... sorry shouldn't laugh.

I can just imagine one of us HHOers, going up to him and attaching lunge-lines to his face so he can learn respect and manners 

Do we start a collection for a funeral now, or later?

Yes, can imagine a badly handled youngster accepting it but that deranged colt is not equal to a badly handled youngster... he was a monster that was a human creation and I don't even think castration would have solved his many problems. Poor soul.

I'm not that experienced and if I were to meet him face to face I'd have pooped my pants!!!


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## YasandCrystal (6 June 2013)

tallyho! said:



			LOL... sorry shouldn't laugh.

I can just imagine one of us HHOers, going up to him and attaching lunge-lines to his face so he can learn respect and manners 

Do we start a collection for a funeral now, or later?

Yes, can imagine a badly handled youngster accepting it but that deranged colt is not equal to a badly handled youngster... he was a monster that was a human creation and I don't even think castration would have solved his many problems. Poor soul.

I'm not that experienced and if I were to meet him face to face I'd have pooped my pants!!! 

Click to expand...

Yes lol  I wouldn't touch him either - completely ruined colt!

The point was just about 'sacking out' generally and why it is done and that doing the same with the colt wasn't all about 'riding' him per se. Too late for the colt I would pts.


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## teabiscuit (6 June 2013)

Fellewell I'm interested to know if you think roughing him up, for want of a better expression, would have worked with this horse?Genuine question.


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## doriangrey (6 June 2013)

tallyho! said:



			LOL... sorry shouldn't laugh.

I can just imagine one of us HHOers, going up to him and attaching lunge-lines to his face so he can learn respect and manners 

Do we start a collection for a funeral now, or later?

Yes, can imagine a badly handled youngster accepting it but that deranged colt is not equal to a badly handled youngster... he was a monster that was a human creation and I don't even think castration would have solved his many problems. Poor soul.

I'm not that experienced and if I were to meet him face to face I'd have pooped my pants!!! 

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LOL, tbh I don't think that Buck looked that confident either especially when he was trying to get it to load.  I think his aide was lucky - when the colt attacked him he was distracted by (I think) his owner shouting him all I can say is thank God he heard her.  I do believe the colt is beyond redemption and no amount of re-starting will help.  I'd love to be proved wrong but it's not worth someone getting killed by trying.


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## Fellewell (6 June 2013)

teabiscuit said:



			Fellewell I'm interested to know if you think roughing him up, for want of a better expression, would have worked with this horse?Genuine question.
		
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You like that word 'rough' don't you? You've used it twice now.

That is not what I meant and yours is not a genuine question.


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## tabithakat64 (6 June 2013)

Beautiful colt, I don't think any amount of retraining would have completely resolved the issue. I've known a couple of similar horses too which have been spoilt and given no boundaries but were given the right handling etc ok 99% of the time but I truly believe that the best thing was for this colt to be pts as I don't believe that gelding him would have had a significant enough affect on his aggressive behaviour and his owner was never even with all the training in the world going to treat the colt like a horse and be consistent.
Does anyone actually know if she did have him pts?


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## PolarSkye (6 June 2013)

Fellewell said:



			I'll lay money there were plenty of things he could have done with that colt (some of which would not meet with HHO's approval) I don't suppose his head lad would have been tiptoeing through the tulips either if the cameras hadn't been on.
But faced with an excuse-laden snivelling owner what was the point? She had neither the wherewithal nor inclination to build on anything he did.
*When she was 'pleading' with the colt to load, well, the look on his face said it all.*
I thought all cowboys carried a gun.
		
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Indeed.  I thought Buck was remarkably patient and restrained with the idiot woman.  

Buck was on a hide into nothing from the start with the colt - and I'll bet, if asked privately, he would agree and perhaps even admit that he should have had a quiet word with the owner first and then made a decision about what to do, rather than just crack on.  The owner either withheld vital information or lied, depending on your perspective - and that alone put all those handling the horse in unnecessary danger.  Of course we didn't see everything - of course Buck spent far longer than the three or four minutes assessing/backing the horse we saw in the film, and I do understand why he felt that the best thing to do with the horse was to give it a job to do (i.e., be under saddle) because it was too dangerous to handle much from the ground.

The thing that has really stayed with me, however, is that this woman apparently has another 17 stallions at home!!!!  Frankly, she shouldn't be allowed to keep an entire male hamster 

P


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## teabiscuit (6 June 2013)

Extraordinary situation. Horrible outcome for the horse. I wonder if it was used as an opportunity to show what mismanagement can produce. If that's the case then good for Buck.


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## Tinypony (6 June 2013)

I doubt that Buck would have had any interest in doing more/rougher or whatever you want to call it.  He's been around horses all his life, seems like a pragmatic sort of bloke, I suspect he wouldn't waste the time on it when there are so many other, easier horses out there.  What would be the point when you've got nothing to prove?
I don't even think it was a horrible outcome for the horse.  That was one unhappy and confused animal, no place in the human world where he always felt he needed to defend himself all the time, and at home turned out with 17 other stallions!  Shooting him would be a release surely?  If she did get him shot of course.


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## Dusty85 (6 June 2013)

Awful situation but I feel the one that came worst off in all of this was the poor colt. And i dont mean that he may have been destroyed- i mean the life he had which resulted in him acting in such an aggressive way. I have never seen a horse so aggressive- especially one that hadnt been mistreated violently. He was so vicious when he attacked that more guy! Although i suppose i agree with what others have said- it may have been a little too much too soon for the sake of making a TV programme. 

I watched that woman crying and I thought - you stupid woman- Im glad that someone is finally telling you straight up what an idiot youve been! (although i admit i dont know her home/life circumstances) 

I just hope that the owner lady learns from this situation- although i fear she wont!


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## Fellewell (6 June 2013)

PolarSkye said:



			Indeed.  I thought Buck was remarkably patient and restrained with the idiot woman.  

Buck was on a hide into nothing from the start with the colt - and I'll bet, if asked privately, he would agree and perhaps even admit that he should have had a quiet word with the owner first and then made a decision about what to do, rather than just crack on.  The owner either withheld vital information or lied, depending on your perspective - and that alone put all those handling the horse in unnecessary danger.  Of course we didn't see everything - of course Buck spent far longer than the three or four minutes assessing/backing the horse we saw in the film, and I do understand why he felt that the best thing to do with the horse was to give it a job to do (i.e., be under saddle) because it was too dangerous to handle much from the ground.

The thing that has really stayed with me, however, is that this woman apparently has another 17 stallions at home!!!!  Frankly, she shouldn't be allowed to keep an entire male hamster 

P
		
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Yes cameras must be a double-edged sword for a snapshot of time with a horse that needs months and months of remedial work.
What puzzles me is how she got him to three unless there was liberal use of a chemical cosh. This would certainly explain why the poor animal was in a constant state of arousal when faced with 'the real world'.


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## PolarSkye (6 June 2013)

Fellewell said:



			What puzzles me is how she got him to three unless there was liberal use of a chemical cosh. This would certainly explain why the poor animal was in a constant state of arousal when faced with 'the real world'.
		
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Quite.  

P


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## Tinypony (6 June 2013)

A long time ago I ran a clinic where someone drugged their horse to load it to get there.  It wasn't entirely their fault because they had been advised badly by the "head office" of the organisation providing the instructor.  Then the person brought forward the deadline when they wanted to leave.  Meaning that the instructor was in a heck of a fix and ended up doing more with the horse in one session than he would have done normally - to try to help the owner and also because what were we supposed to do with them when everyone else went home?  What we didn't know was that the owner intended loading the horse up AGAIN the next day - after a long journey home.  So the following morning when presented with the trailer the horse hyperventilated and laid down on the ramp.  Wrong decisions all round there, but from the best of intentions.

Edit to add - obviously the instructor got the blame for traumatising the horse.


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## fburton (6 June 2013)

AengusOg said:



			The man who was ultimately injured seemed to be in a very vulnerable position much of the time, and at times seemed a little blase in his handling of the horse. He didn't seem to have much instinct for the situation.
		
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Yes, I cringed at the way he was messing about with him in the pen just before the attack. It was hard to judge the degree of facial tension in that scene at a distance (maybe some wrinkling of the nose), but I'm sure there were warning signs.


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## teabiscuit (6 June 2013)

People can be messed up by life just as much as horses. I don't know anything about the woman or why this happened. I feel uncomfortable with the bashing. Maybe she deserves it. I don't know enough to decide.
I can't think of how a good outcome for the horse could be achieved.


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## teabiscuit (6 June 2013)

I cringed at a few things that happened in the DVD. I wouldn't want my youngster turned free in a small confined space with a lot of other strange youngsters.


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## Equilibrium Ireland (6 June 2013)

What everyone seems to forget is this type of colt starting is basically the type used for horses raised in big herds on hundreds to even thousands of acres of rough land. The strong survive. I don't start horses this way but I do take things away from people like Buck. He's been doing this clinics long before he was a household name and will continue to do so


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## Equilibrium Ireland (6 June 2013)

Anyway,

He will continue doing clinics dealing with horses the best way he knows how. There is no school or levels to be a qualified this or that. You have some issues well lets see what we can work out. 

There is no magic solution to some problems. That's the thing with horses. You keep learning and you keep evolving. When you think you've seen it all, in walks a horse who writes a whole new book, never mind a chapter.

Those of you who want neat tidy endings I'm afraid it's not possible sometimes. Like I said before maybe in the right hands for a year or two the horse could have been ok. But probably never going back to his owner. So crying it isn't fair to the horse, yeah you're probably right. But what would make you feel better. Anyone who has been critical of this incident hasn't offered up their armchair solutions and has never dealt with a horse like this. You may think you have the answers and no better but until you're in the ring with this horse how do you know? 

Horses are amazing creatures and you can learn so much by going outside the box. We're so worried about doing things perfect and by the book. Some horses hate such situations. Yet day after day they get drilled for headset, perfect circles, perfect this, perfect that. Let go and try something different once in awhile. You may be surprised by the results.

Terri


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## teabiscuit (6 June 2013)

Well I've read of horse fatalities during these clinics, not Buck clinics, I'm sure you're right Terri in what you say. I was impressed by it but still wouldn't want to risk it  personal preference


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## Equilibrium Ireland (6 June 2013)

I don't go zinging around on mine with others either. My whole thing is forward, happy, and confident. But also my arena is kind of in the middle of my fields so they learn they can't lose the plot when others get up to hijinx. Same with going in fields next to others. I don't believe in quiet and no distractions. If the lawn needs mowed or someone's working with power tools we just have to deal with it. Everday life for the environment as it is on this side of the pond. Being out on a range with other horses, checking stock (cattle and horses), dealing with an odd real life predator (oh yeah), that's what those horses do. So instead of thinking how it's done in merry ole England and slagging Americans off, think about how it actually is in real life. A horse that must learn to keep the pressure on the rope from the horn while the cowboy dismounts and does his work. If the rope goes slack, the cow gets loose. Different way of life people.

Terri


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## teabiscuit (6 June 2013)

And are all the horses in these clinics reared and used in this way? There seemed to be a range of horses and people to me. Not that it matters. I admire what he does and wish I could ride as well as his little toe. I think he's the only trainer of this genre that I have time for. The loading clip was awesome.


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## Equilibrium Ireland (6 June 2013)

No not all people there do this type of stuff, but it how is work is based. Lots of people back home even start big fancy expensive warmbloods in western saddles. They are comfy. I'm doing some bridless work with my ginger TB mare at the moment and I forget how much better my leg and seat become when I don't use my hands. (no I don't have horrible hands, just hard to describe). The mare starts working in a way that's really fun. And that in turn improves other things for me. So I think maybe ranch type starting or even a little of this type of work mixed in isn't going to be detrimental no matter what the ultimate goal happens to be.

Terri


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## teabiscuit (6 June 2013)

Dressage is supposed to be about building the correct muscles through correct exercise, not endless circles, and the outline will follow. Not about grappling the head into where you think it should be. I think the stuff he does fits in with that. His horse was lovely and light off the aids (that feels like an understatement). I must watch the DVD again


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## AengusOg (6 June 2013)

Tinypony said:



			Do you think that was an option for a trainer who is on the road 9 months of the year?  And, ultimately, it was the owner's responsibility to make long-term provision for her horse, not Buck's.
		
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If I can't work with a particular horse in a clinic situation, I either make alternative arrangements with the owner to allow an appropriate appointment or I recommend another trainer.

Don't worry...I'm not having a go at Buck. I happen to think he should maybe have made an assessment of that horse and left it well alone. It seemed inevitable that someone would get hurt.


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## AengusOg (6 June 2013)

Tinypony said:



			He's been around horses all his life, seems like a pragmatic sort of bloke, I suspect he wouldn't waste the time on it when there are so many other, easier horses out there.  What would be the point when you've got nothing to prove?
		
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I doubt he thinks that way, but maybe you know more than most about Buck. I would be disappointed if that were his way of thinking, as that was not the impression I formed of him from the programme.

He may not have anything to prove, but I'd hope he would care enough about horses that he would not consider any of them as a waste of his time.

If I'd  chosen 'easier' horses from the selection presented to me by my clients over the years, and declined opportunities to work with those considered too difficult or dangerous, I don't think I would have had a lot of work. I 'suspect' Buck tries to help them all.



Tinypony said:



			That was one unhappy and confused animal, no place in the human world where he always felt he needed to defend himself all the time
		
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The horse was violently aggressive and exhibited extreme sexual behaviour in the presence of his owner, as well as a tendency to attack male humans without provocation...he wasn't defending himself.


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## Clodagh (6 June 2013)

I'm just watching it, iPlayer keeps hanging, but have just seen the colt. I think Buck was great when he spoke to the woman - he couldn't have been much more to the point while remaining calm. The only solution was for it to be shot, it had been made into a monster. The woman has probably got another stallion now, to replace it.
Tell me, or is it my deviant mind, do you think she taught it to be sexually interested in women!? Why would you have 18 stallions hanging out in the field!??


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## Tinypony (6 June 2013)

Just to reply to AegnusOg - sorry I don't think I was expressing myself well this am, because reading back I think we mostly agree and I wasn't clear in what I was saying.  (Sometimes I have to take quite strong painkillers to get my day started).
I was trying to say that I kind of doubt that Buck is in the business of taking away dangerous horses for long-term work.  Maybe I'm wrong, but I've never heard of him doing that.  I don't think he'd be someone you'd ask to take on a long-term behaviour re-hab project.  Like I say, I could be wrong.  I don't mean that he'd turn away a difficult horse so that he could work with an easier horse, but I do wonder how he'd react say if someone offered him that horse for free to "rescue".  
I don't think he should have worked the horse at the clinic, like I said before, I think she should have been turned around and sent away.  Pretty much every time a trainer I know has tried to help someone when they shouldn't have worked with a horse on a clinic it turns to s h i t.  And they end up on the end of some bad criticism.
Behaviour - he was just a horse being a horse wasn't he?  We don't know enough about the situation to say for sure exactly what was going on.  Apparently he showed deviant sexual behaviour to his owner, yes he showed aggression, but I think it would be wrong to decide that none of his reactions arose from fear.  You know - that "I'll get you before you get me" sort of thing?  I just cringe when a horse is labelled as purely aggressive when there tends to be something more varied going on.
No Clodagh, I don't think she deliberately taught the horse to be sexually interested in women.  Maybe you consider that we teach them something all the time we are with them, in which case you might say that she inadvertently taught him all of this.


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## AengusOg (6 June 2013)

I see what you're saying TP


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## cundlegreen (7 June 2013)

I've been watching this thread with great interest. I thought the documentary was really inspiring, particularly the way that Buck's horses went for him. Perfectly calm, trusting, and beautifully balanced and light under saddle. Surely what we should all aspire to.
This man appears to want to make a difference, why else would he spend so much time on the road. Yes, he's getting paid, but the time and effort, (you could see he's taken some knocks by the way that he walked) that he puts in to try and make things better for the horse by educating the owners, is the mark of a true horseman. He also didn't try to market anything, unlike MR and PP.
As to the colt, I have been around stallions of all sorts since I was 13. I have my own stallion with exceptional manners, and have worked for a lot of years with TB colts. I have NEVER seen a colt making the noises that this one did, not even in breeding stallions at stud. I would say there were several factors going on here, being brought up as an orphan by a very misguided person, being only one of them. 
If anybody has read Horse Heaven by Jane Smiley, the colt Epic Steam in that book was very similar to this horse, and was also described as a monster. Jane Smiley spent a lot of time at the race tracks, and I'm certain that this charactor was based on a real horse.
I had a 5 year old Hackney gelding that I bought several years ago. I was his last chance as he had been through 10 yards in a year due to his bad manners and aggressiveness. he would bite, strike and kick all at the same time. Going back through his history, he was by a possibly flawed stallion who was apparently put down young due to his temperament. My little horse had been kept either with his mother or by himself for 4 years as a colt. He was a "fight" reflex type, so his owner went into the small stable that he lived in, and hit him over the head with a plastic bottle filled with stones. This, she reasoned, didn't hurt him, but made him respect her. It took me three months to see him with his ears pricked, they were always flat to his head. I got bitten badly twice by him, when he couldn't bear me in his space. He had several attempts at attacking my stallion over the door of his stable, before my stallion got into the field with him, and kicked the s**t out of him. Although I brought him round, and he was excellent when doing a job, I had to sell him in the end, as my stallion couldn't tolerate him and twice did his best to kill him. I think this little horse was mentally unstable in some respects. He did however go to a carefully selected home, where he has done very well, and is "managed". However, it would possibly have been the best thing to have put him down. Sorry for the waffle, but I just think that some horses are genetically flawed, and that PTS is the only option.


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## babymare (7 June 2013)

Equilibrium. inspiring posts and totaly agree with what you wrote. my mare got me thinking iutside the box when i  bought her. critised at time but now a sweeter kinder mare you wouldnt find. far cry frim dangerous unrideable horse she was


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## Tinypony (7 June 2013)

That's an interesting story Cundlegreen, your poor horse.
I was pondering over the things that can happen before a trainer sees a horse, that are really awful but maybe the owner doesn't attach the same importance? On one of my clinics the trainer worked with a beautiful young colt that was showing "aggression".  He'd got into that situation "I don't want to do this. I'm only here for 3 days.  But I want to make you and him safer and happier"...  Sitting around drinking tea at one point when the owner told us some things she hadn't mentioned -
When he arrived as a baby and was afraid to come out of his trailer they attached his rope to a quad and hauled him out.
From the age of I think about 6 months he'd never been turned out with another equine.
They used to get big and noisy at the door or his stable to make him go and stand by his manger before they went in.
On one occasion he lunged at her as she went into the stable and bit her (I wonder why?).  She went out of the stable, got his headcollar, went back, put it on and threw him to the ground as a punishment and to show him who was boss.  
All of this was related as if it was perfectly normal and acceptable.  A stunned silence fell.  The trainer took her away and had a quiet word.
What I'm saying is that we seem to know a fair bit about the colt on Buck's clinic, but we'll never know it all.  

So - to think about more positive stuff - I really loved his ridden work, so stress-free and beautiful.  I would love to be able to ride like that.


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## tallyho! (7 June 2013)

Tinypony said:



			I would love to be able to ride like that.
		
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I bet you do! 

Relaxed and stress free is no strange secret


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## fburton (7 June 2013)

teabiscuit said:



			People can be messed up by life just as much as horses. I don't know anything about the woman or why this happened. I feel uncomfortable with the bashing. Maybe she deserves it. I don't know enough to decide.
I can't think of how a good outcome for the horse could be achieved.
		
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I not so sure the horse was beyond help in principle, but it's hard to envisage a happy ending involving his owner. It would have taken the sustained involvement of someone knowledgeable and confident. Clearly no quick fixes were possible.


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## tallyho! (7 June 2013)

tallyho! said:



			I bet you do! 

Relaxed and stress free is no strange secret 

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TP, just read this back and it sounds like I'm saying "I bet you do" as in I bet you do wish you ride like that but it isn't what I meant at all!

I meant: I bet you do [ride like that]...


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## Tinypony (7 June 2013)

tallyho! said:



			TP, just read this back and it sounds like I'm saying "I bet you do" as in I bet you do wish you ride like that but it isn't what I meant at all!

I meant: I bet you do [ride like that]...
		
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You got it right the first time Tallyho.   




 

I feel as if I get flashes of brilliance in low gears at the moment, but nothing sustained.  The best lesson I've learned from Buck since watching the 7 Clinics is the idea of "feel for" the horse when riding.  I have a horse who loves to hang heavily on my hands and dump on his forehand, that "feel for" stuff has amazing results, but it's hard to be consistent.


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## LadyDarcy (7 September 2016)

I loved watching this online the other day, he is truly inspirational, a wonderful man!

Wow, to know horses the way he does, what a blessing!


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