# Frozen semen export to the USA



## texascbs (27 November 2014)

Good morning and Happy Thanksgiving

Often folks here in the USA ask why we can't get equine frozen semen from the UK.  As a Cleveland Bay enthusiast, having frozen semen available from other continents will greatly help our ever dwindling gene pool.

I have looked all over different website, just a ball park (cricket field) estimate...how much time and money (quarantines, collection, shipping, etc.) does it cost 
to have a UK stallion semen shipped here?

I can't afford it, but everyone says it is expensive...how expensive really is it?

Thanks
Gabrielle 
GG Cleveland Bays
Texas USA


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## bakewell (27 November 2014)

Here's some costings that I worked up when I was looking at it. Prices are the lower end for the UK.

£600 a month upwards for the quarantine period basic livery for international shipping (30days for most, 45 for some). Costs of testing. Costs of training to a dummy. Associated exercise etc costs that might not be incurred at home.
Let's say from that point onwards you get 3.5 collections a week, and let's say your stallion is of average fertility so 2.5 mares worth per shot. Round it up to 9 doses a week produced. You'd probably want him there for at least a month to make it worthwhile.
Fee per collection £75 upwards
Processing fee per collection £10 upwards

£20 a month storage on the semen.
Shipping and handling (frozen dose going out in specialised container) is £100-£150 to UK alone so I dread to think of price to US. Admittedly if you could put the semen into a regulated facility you could bring this cost down, a little.  
By my reckoning for a two month out of the house period:
Vet costs, pre entry testing/ certificates etc: depends on vet. Also transport to from approved facility.
Livery >£1200
Collections and processing of Export semen: > £1200
Storage for a year: £240
Let's say this produces 35 doses in a month. That's a little over £75 raw cost per dose. Not including taxes etc.

Then the transport costs to mare or facility.

Now you can offset this cost a little as semen collected during the quarantine is eligible for use within the UK.

I don't know if this answers the question? but maybe a little of the info is useful.
We do not have a huge number of DEFRA approved facilities in the UK so it's not a competitive market. Plus the most famous one just signed a deal to put make a solar panel farm on a large part of it's acreage so I don't think they're making a huge profit either. And our economy of horse breeding is terrible right now.

Edit: obviously some of the older frozen CB semen is not eligible for export so you are far more limited on that front also.


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## texascbs (27 November 2014)

Wow that helps a lot.   Seems like we had better over here hop to it and use our own stallions more effectively.   We have I think well over 20 CBHS licensed stallions maybe more, and we seem only to use less than five of them.    Need to shake a leg on collection (frozen and fresh) , advertising, etc. as seems like we use less than six of the same here over and over.

We need to get them going riding, showing, or just snip them and get them out so people can see CBs at work.

Thanks so much

Gabrielle
GG Cleveland Bays
Texas USA


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## bakewell (27 November 2014)

No problem. 
I see it as frozen, anything over £300 on a dose becomes profit, if you sell all of them from a two month collection. Those are not great odds.
I would *definitely* be more interested if sex selected semen were available as part of this processing as it is for cattle. There are definitely different choices for which offspring you want. If I had the money that's something I would definitely put my efforts into researching.

Now here's the q you might not have considered: is an embryo subject to the same quarantine, or has the law not caught up to where things are going on that front. 

I know the register dealing with consanguinity in CBs does sterling work in promoting the best choices to achieve and maintain diversity. However there may come a point (as with trekehners for example) when a phenotype/ genotype suitable stallion from another breed must be considered passable in the book to maintain interest and diversity. Or that the 3/4 making up is promoted more heavily (sexed semen would certainly help that). Sometimes the desire for purity leads to a bottleneck. ID are hot on the heels of CB down that route and through use of mares rather than stallions for cross breeding. Hope they can learn from recent history.

Obviously the science moves faster when economy justifies it. And as you assess the CB is not currently the fashionable end of the horse spectrum. Unfortunately I think they have particularly suffered from everyone and his dog wanting a "performance" bred horse. You do not need a donnerhall horse to tit about in novice dressage. However such breeding is available to everyone; a shame more user friendly bloodlines and breeds are overlooked.

I really hope the CB sees a resurgence in the US (and everywhere!)

Edit: Also of note is the fact that much frozen semen is now marketed per straw after some underhanded usage of multiple straws to impregnate multiple mares. So not as appealing to mare owners as it makes it complicated and there's less goodwill along the lines of NFFR. Increased use of macrostraws which hold a full dose could create a better feeling on this front.


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## sywell (28 November 2014)

On the use of covering more than one mare from a semen dose. There is a position in some countries that you have paid for it and how you use it is up to you and the studbooks register a foal on its DNA parentage testing result. With embryo transfere some are restricting it to two foals. In the UK it has been a position that an insemination is for one foal and some studbooks will only accept one foal per covering. If this is wrong please reply.


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## bakewell (28 November 2014)

sywell said:



			On the use of covering more than one mare from a semen dose. There is a position in some countries that you have paid for it and how you use it is up to you and the studbooks register a foal on its DNA parentage testing result. With embryo transfere some are restricting it to two foals. In the UK it has been a position that an insemination is for one foal and some studbooks will only accept one foal per covering. If this is wrong please reply.
		
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Not wrong but here's some points (sorry if deathly dull)
I think the UKs attitude is pushed largely by the racehorse industry; that's still natural cover only so AI isn't pushed in the same way and we view use of the straws on more than one mare as somehow "cheating". I agree, you buy the dose, you do what you wish... the cost of deep horn insertion are not negligible.
I don't know about all breeds but in PRE only calificado (extra qualified/elite) stallions can do AI and they only have a limited number of certificates for this a year. A mare must be calificada to do ET but as far as I am aware there is no limit on number, nor on the breed of the mare carrying (Akhal Teke ET must be carried by AT mare, which is logical given effect on build of transfer mare). Lusitanos don't seem to have ET regulation/ limits (at this moment in time).
In the UK yes the (major) studbooks will only accept one foal per covering, but I believe it would be eligible for sporthorse registeries with an unknown father (there are a number of randoms off the teaser mares that happen out of TB yards). Likewise it could still be a very impressive performance horse of parentage unknown. A gelding is after all a stand alone prospect.

ET two foals means essentially one cycle, and some luck. TBH I think limitations on ET are trying to shut pandora's box. Stallions are such widespread producers it's not affecting the genetic base any more than a popular stallion.

Sorry for divergence TexasCBs.


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## Rollin (28 November 2014)

Thanks for starting this thread.  I do have some costs from France for collection, testing and freezing.  I have two stallions, whose semen we plan to export.  I will look them up and post them.

I am interested in the quarantine costs, I pay just 600 euros a month for good quality training livery not quarantine.

Bakewell, I own 6 pure bred and 2 part bred CB's.  Part of the problem is that not enough is done to promote the benefits of owning a Cleveland Bay and numbers are so low, that prospective purchasers give up looking.


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## texascbs (28 November 2014)

Wow this is incredible information.  I think these costs are why each continent must know what we animals we have and genetic diversity.  Difficult to get this info from HQ, so each continent or region really needs to figure it out themselves.   We have bottlenecks in North America and Australasia.   HQ doesn't seem to work much with the scientific community, but North America does.  Yet it takes lots of time and education to change attitudes from traditional breeding philosophies to more scientific.  We have many under used stallions, but getting the stallion owners more open to try something different and the buyers to take a leap of faith than using the same proven stallions is tough.

Here is very difficult near impossible to get a stallion owner to provide frozen semen motility reports.  So the buyer has few options. 1. complete leap of faith  2. see if your lab can test part of it again after you buy it 3. only use frozen semen from stallion with babies on the ground.   Some labs can "eye ball" semen to see how good it is but again you already bought it.  If it a macrostraw, once you pop the top you must use it.  You can't send the rest back it the motility stinks.   

For multiple babies from one contract, that is all over the map here.  I bought frozen semen from a broker (liquidation sale) by the dose.  I received a lot of grief from some CB folks on line that it wasn't legal, it wasn't ethical, the CBHS wouldn't register it, the semen may be bad, and when I was going to resell part of it. then then bad press from some got even worse.   Now the foal I had registered with the CBHS with two tiny snips has grown to 20 months old and the snips are gone.  The owner is being run through the ringer and being charged 6 x more than other owner (fee must be paid before HQ will talk to her) with a similar to have the passport amended to take the snips off.  I really think part of the stink is because I bought semen from a broker in a liquidation sale.

I noticed some contracts say if you buy for one mare, so if the mare gets pregnant on the first dose you must dump or return the rest.  Some contracts are silent, so I guess you could squeeze more babies from one contract.   Some sellers don't care.  You bought it, you go for it.   I have heard of people then splitting doses for even more babies. 

In the USA, horses need not be registered at all.  So you have many options just must decide if and who you want to register with.  

I love Cleveland Bays, but it seems sometimes it would just be easier to breed to outside stallions and have partbreds/sport horses.  Back to studying what is available, what we need, what I can afford, and see if I can get any reports from the FS stallion owners.  Being in Texas, live cover just isn't an option.  So it is cooled or frozen.

Thanks so much,

Gabrielle
GG Cleveland Bays
Texas USA


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## bakewell (28 November 2014)

texascbs said:



			I noticed some contracts say if you buy for one mare, so if the mare gets pregnant on the first dose you must dump or return the rest.  Some contracts are silent, so I guess you could squeeze more babies from one contract.   Some sellers don't care.  You bought it, you go for it.   I have heard of people then splitting doses for even more babies.
		
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Quick one on this: you are totally allowed to do AI insertion and collection for Uk yourself here (UK, training available all over the place), but not ET (which must be done by a vet), though all the supplies are readily available. Export semen production must be overseen by a vet for DEFRA regs.

Many semen sale contracts specify that the vet must receive the semen, do the insertion and be responsible for the destruction of remainder; appealing to their code of conduct and professional ethics. I think this is a bit unpleasant as I am sure it could put the vet in an awkward position between mare owner and semen producer if the former wanted more inseminating etc. Perhaps better to just sell the straw and draw a line!

Regarding cooled/ frozen. Some stallions just do not freeze (previously mentioned Donnerhall, he was notorious for this). Some have semen that reacts badly to certain extenders. Fussing about to find the perfect solution for these guys obviously ups the price. Obviously for very valuable stallions with poor semen there are solutions around IVF etc. Only feasible when large cash sums involved though rather than genetic value sadly. 

Also of note, if you have a stallion in a quarantine barn with a view to producing export semen the environment is not conducive to maintaining his peak fertility. The presence of other stallions has an adverse effect on testosterone for the majority, plus there is the stress and likelihood that his exercise etc regime is diminished.

Live cover is hugely risky, not just physical injury but disease transmission. We test for what we know currently exists, as well as we are able. That wouldn't reassure me too much if I owned a rare or very valuable stallion.
Fundamentally my stallion is reduced to the quarantine status of any visiting mare and all I have is a swab test that is out of date as soon as it is made.

Gabrielle: I do not understand "snips" is this a condition/ restriction on the status of the offspring? Can DNA analysis be appropriate/ deemed sufficient to determine parentage that meets criteria in this situation?
So silly to have that attitude on the semen. Would they have rather it went down the drain!?


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## Rollin (28 November 2014)

Bakewell, the 'snips' refer to white markings.  Traditionally Cleveland Bays, with more white than a small star were not allowed into the stud book, now they are registered as mis-marked.

Two owners have recently appealed passports marked 'miss marked' and been given different treatment.  I must confess to being quite shocked when I read the minutes.

As far as using semen for more than one mare is concerned, I have frozen semen from two proven CB stallions stored at West Kington and my contracts enable me to use the semen for more than one mare if first fertilisation is successful.  I make sure of this before purchase.

My own stallion has proved to be very fertile with natural cover, but we will wait to see what his spermatogram showes.  (hope spelling is correct).

As far as registering a CB from semen you purchased Texascbs, CBHS require both an AI certificate  and DNA.  

I do know that one Trustee has a pure bred registered in the stud book from a mare who went to stud in FRance.  As the mare was never registered on the SIRE (NED) in France it would have been impossible, at that time, for the breeder/Trustee to obtain a covering certificate.  Check again - you should be able to register on the basis of DNA alone.


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## texascbs (28 November 2014)

Having white on a pure beyond between their eyes, makes them only fit for dog meat regarding pure breeding to many.  No matter if they look like Adonis or perform like Milton.
My guy had two small snips that disappeared as he aged and another colt in the UK seemed the same happened to him.  Both owners petitioned to have mismark taken off of passport which I honestly thought would be a simple process.  One was oked, the other one (my colt) was accused of doctoring the photo of his nose and now is being charged over six times the normal amount just to have a chance to have the "case" heard.  No communication until fees paid first.    Never seen this protocol ever happen before.  Very sad and the owned is just gutted  1. the fee 2. accused of fudging the photo

If this is the new established protocol, it will be hard on many.  Luckily in the USA, we can register (if we choose to register) at any age just a 10 pound late fee.  If I ever have a pure with a bit too much white, I think I will just wait until it ages enough to see if the white stays or goes and pay the 10 pound late fee than to suffer all this pain and angst.    I keep literally praying it is just a misunderstanding at HQ and what was the normal procedure goes back into place.  

Gabrielle
GG Cleveland Bays
Texas USA




Rollin said:



			Bakewell, the 'snips' refer to white markings.  Traditionally Cleveland Bays, with more white than a small star were not allowed into the stud book, now they are registered as mis-marked.

Two owners have recently appealed passports marked 'miss marked' and been given different treatment.  I must confess to being quite shocked when I read the minutes.
		
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## bakewell (28 November 2014)

Offer a video in the case you describe?

Presumably a breeder may disregard to use a horse they regard as excessively marked but it sounds like they are taking this to extremes in a time they can ill afford to be so unnecessarily selective.

They're going to end up with dyed horses with this attitude. Very unfair on breeders trying to keep the breed alive. Otherwise you're going to end up with one perfect Lonesome George.


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## texascbs (28 November 2014)

Back on topic.
What is the normal procedure in the UK and EU about frozen semen test results?   Does the buyer have access for the lab results for collections, post thaw, etc.?

I have used frozen, cooled and live cover.  I really like frozen as it gives me more options for getting my mares ready.  I know the success rate is lower, but I show and hunt my mares and I don't like the risks of live cover.  For fresh, you must find an owner and vet that can get the job done and to you in a moment's notice, and that is tough and can be expensive. Freoight rates for Hot shot ing cooled semen at a moment's notice across the country especially when using a show stallion can be very very expensive...not including collection fee, stud fee, etc.

Gabrielle
GG Cleveland Bays
Texas USA


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## texascbs (28 November 2014)

bakewell said:



			Offer a video in the case you describe?

Presumably a breeder may disregard to use a horse they regard as excessively marked but it sounds like they are taking this to extremes in a time they can ill afford to be so unnecessarily selective.

They're going to end up with dyed horses with this attitude. Very unfair on breeders trying to keep the breed alive. Otherwise you're going to end up with one perfect Lonesome George.
		
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There are already instances where owners say "mismark"  is due to accident or cut and area grew back white, or horse stuck nose into fertilizer burned nose and it grew back white, etc.  I have heard some Miss Clariol stories, but I hoped people we joking.   In the UK you can have an approved marking person ( another member ) who can fill out the marking sheet for you instead of using a vet.  Saves a lot of money.    Also the rules state using the FEI official marking chart, which I found downloaded and the vet and used.  The terminology for marking the FEI uses and what I have seen listed in passports don't often match, but that is what we are supposed to go by.    It is very sad indeed.   I even went the extra mile and had him microchipped and used A4 paper which isn't required for horses outside the EU.  Luckily my daughter found A4 paper in at an Asian office supply shop in Japantown in San Francisco and our printer can be set for A paper.


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## Rollin (28 November 2014)

bakewell said:



			Offer a video in the case you describe?

Presumably a breeder may disregard to use a horse they regard as excessively marked but it sounds like they are taking this to extremes in a time they can ill afford to be so unnecessarily selective.

They're going to end up with dyed horses with this attitude. Very unfair on breeders trying to keep the breed alive. Otherwise you're going to end up with one perfect Lonesome George.
		
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Ditto this.

For three years in succession not enough pure bred foals to maintain the stud book.

Membership is declining.  Huge efforts should be made to keep existing members/breeders on side.  I find it quite unacceptable that someone should be accused of tampering with a photo much more 'prudent' to use language like photo not clear or write privately.

Video is a great idea but the owner would still have to pay a substantial fee up front and join the society to get the video looked at.

This is of course the way forward for a critically endangered Rare Breed NOT!!


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## texascbs (28 November 2014)

Back to my original question

How do you guys know over there (UK and France) that the FS contract you may enter is actually good semen?  

Thanks
Gabrielle
GG Cleveland bays


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## Rollin (28 November 2014)

You would need evidence of foals on the ground from Frozen semen or report on quality of semen provided.  I know you have a FS broker in USA have you asked the same question of them?

I personally have only purchased FS from stallions who I know have produced foals by this route.  I have still had problems in the past with a stud who did not perform scans correctly, which is why I purchased a stallion for not much more than the vet fees!!

We now live in an area with lots of expertise in AI.


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## bakewell (28 November 2014)

texascbs said:



			Back to my original question

How do you guys know over there (UK and France) that the FS contract you may enter is actually good semen?  

Thanks
Gabrielle
GG Cleveland bays
		
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We rarely *know*. We live in hope. The better collection centres will analyse and work with a stallion to get the best extender/ processing/ suitable dilution. They will look at post thawing motility etc. You could ask to see the results of these tests and judge by the response to that question! I've seen some percentages thrown around, statements about fertility but I've not yet seen a document concerning the semen quality in different methods displayed alongside family tree etc. 

Given the costs involved unless your stallion is banging out the goods perfectly it makes it impossible to justify that investment of analysis etc if they're not. So the temptation would be to just freeze and hope for the best. Agree frozen is the way to go for retaining genetic diversity and making it as hassle free as possible for mare owners.

You can do deep horn implantation to increase the chances if you know the semen is a bit duff (because sometimes it's the only option you have). 

As Rollin says, best indication is foals on the ground.

All becomes much more difficult with a rare breed...


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## bakewell (28 November 2014)

Just found this

http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rc...XwE5R_z6rNwY0C47GuW5QLg&bvm=bv.80642063,d.ZGU

(direct PDF download)
which is very informative on frozen, post-thaw fertility and how actually a lot of the analysis we have readily available doesn't necessarily correlate to actual fertility.


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## texascbs (28 November 2014)

There is a stallion I really like.
Very few foals on the ground.  very rare, and I love his sire.  very expensive, mega straw, only can pop the top and check as she is inseminated as there arent' reports.
question is do I have that much money set aside knowing may not work at all.......

Gabrielle
GG Cleveland Bays


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## texascbs (29 November 2014)

thanks everyone for responding.
I think I understand the costs and more understand the risks of using frozen semen.

I do hope more consider FS as it will help all those heritage breeds (all species) as they are often spread out all over the country and all over the world and not accessible for live cover.

Sincerely
Gabrielle 
GG Cleveland Bays
Texas USA


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## Rollin (29 November 2014)

bakewell said:



			Just found this

http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rc...XwE5R_z6rNwY0C47GuW5QLg&bvm=bv.80642063,d.ZGU

(direct PDF download)
which is very informative on frozen, post-thaw fertility and how actually a lot of the analysis we have readily available doesn't necessarily correlate to actual fertility.
		
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Thanks for this post and reference.  Very interesting.  We are currently looking at two local centres who will collect and freeze, the paper will enable me to ask more questions.

The stud who perform the AI is also very important.  Example I sent a CB mare to stud with frozen semen from a CB stallion, she failed to conceive after 3 cycles, whereas a friend using frozen semen from the same stallion, but sending mares to J. Pycock had success and semen left over.

Aother CB mare sent to the same stud failed to conceive after 4 cycles.  This semen came from Hungarian National Stud where they continue to breed from the stallion long after he died.

Both these mares conceived on first cycle with natural covering.


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## bakewell (3 December 2014)

Rollin: totally agree on the importance of a competent practicioner. I am considering doing the AI tech course at Twemlows just to be more informed (I already have a cattle one but no-one ever suffered from knowing too much!)

Gabrielle: if your desired stallion is available but his fertility is a bit dubious consider looking at deep uterine (/deep horn) insemination and a more intense follow veterinary regime for the mare. Expensive, but could get the right bloodline for you.

A little research threw this up:
http://www.westkingtonstud.co.uk/index.php/stallion-centre

links to their charges etc and the way they've explained it is far clearer than anything DEFRA has online. Very informative PDFs.


Edit:
http://www.westkingtonstud.co.uk/images/wks/GUIDETOHEALTHREQUIREMENTS&COSTS.pdf
this PDF covers the original question in eye-watering detail!


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