# Setting up a livery yard - advice pls.



## James-Stephens2014 (18 May 2017)

Hi all 

I am a arable farmer in Bucks currently considering diversifying into a livery business to run alongside the crops. 

Following a break up a few months ago I have seven empty 12 x 12 stables, 20 acres of pasture that's suitable and loads of hacking. 

The question I have for you is what is important to you as livery customers? I have a sensible amount for investment but want to put it into the right areas! 

I am not a grumpy old farmer so please be nice!! I am only 31! 

Thanks 
James


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## Yardbird (18 May 2017)

Sounds good, safe fencing is important,and would like it to be possible to have restricted grazing for good doers.


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## Kat (18 May 2017)

A school/arena with lights, automatic troughs to the fields. Daily turn out. Good management, so isolation of new horses, careful introductions if it isn't solo turnout. 

Grazing that isn't overcrowded, although it sounds as though you have enough land available to either get a few more stables or a few grass liveries.


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## meleeka (18 May 2017)

I'd get a manager and only offer part/full livery. Echo a school, which will mean you can charge more. I think most people just want a tidy yard which is friendly and welcoming with safe facilities and decent turnout. A horse shower and rug drying room would be a bonus.


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## be positive (18 May 2017)

My advice would be to put in a decent arena and a few extra boxes with some storage, budget permitting and find a person to rent it as a whole using an agent to do the work, that way you don't have the hassle of 7 different people and their equines to manage leaving you to farm and just do routine management when required, you may be lucky and find individuals that don't need managing but this way would bring in a regular income without adding much work to your already busy life.


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## popsdosh (18 May 2017)

James-Stephens2014 said:



			Hi all 

I am a arable farmer in Bucks currently considering diversifying into a livery business to run alongside the crops. 

Following a break up a few months ago I have seven empty 12 x 12 stables, 20 acres of pasture that's suitable and loads of hacking. 

The question I have for you is what is important to you as livery customers? I have a sensible amount for investment but want to put it into the right areas! 

I am not a grumpy old farmer so please be nice!! I am only 31! 

Thanks 
James
		
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I reckon you may be using this as a free 'dating site' LOL


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## Oscar (18 May 2017)

Proper fencing eg wooden posts with mains electric thick horse tape.  Small herds with plenty of space is ideal, horse owners aren't like sheep or dairy farmers!! 

A 20x40 arena will cost £25k+ for a professional installation, but if you can do the groundwork and fencing yourself and just buy the surface you can do it much much cheaper.  

Other things to consider are storage, parking, horseboxes (a nominal monthly charge per trailer or horsebox is often charged at most yards).

You could sell your own hay haylage and bedding, but beware light fingers!! 

Then you need some form of sensible rules as every horse owner has their own ideas and world war 3 can erupt. Sensible opening hours need to be considered for yourself and the liveries, eg, some people start work early so need to see to their horse ridiculously early and may want to be turning up at 5am.  Others may not leave til you kick them out, I've met a few mad cat lady type horse owners that need to evicted at 10pm so I could go to bed!! Lots to consider, don't expect to make much money.


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## Goldenstar (18 May 2017)

I would rent the yard as a whole to one person .


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## turnbuckle (18 May 2017)

All above points v sensible. Don't be tempted to put more boxes in - if your drainage allows, being able to offer good un-restricted winter turn-out is a huge plus point.


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## Blurr (18 May 2017)

A toilet.


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## Antw23uk (18 May 2017)

popsdosh said:



			I reckon you may be using this as a free 'dating site' LOL
		
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Beat me to it, lol!


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## spugs (18 May 2017)

I chose my yard because it has 24 hour turnout in summer, daylight turnout in winter, a outdoor school, only 3 horses per field which aren't miles from the farm and there's only a few liveries (12) so it's quiet. There is also someone you can pay if you need full or part livery. The only thing it doesn't have which I would like is a tackroom.


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## PorkChop (18 May 2017)

Another that would try and rent the whole yard to one person.


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## Laika (18 May 2017)

Blurr said:



			A toilet.
		
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Could not agree with this more... I have a portaloo at my yard and it's not the most dignifying thing to use


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## Notimetoride (18 May 2017)

I would also rent to one owner.   Put in nice facilities like a decent hardstanding, decent fencing, gates, an arena, toilet, dry secure tack storage, water, elec  etc etc, and then rent it as a whole.   I have a friend who owns a livery yard and hes always said its not the horses that are a problem (tho they can be sometimes!), its the people.


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## Lammy (18 May 2017)

If it helps I've just moved to a farm situated livery yard and this is what we have:

For £130 a month:

New internal stables in an airy barn with 2 spare for tying up
Outdoor concreted tie up area
Free unlimited straw included
Old container converted into a feed room so plenty of room and keeps the mice out!
Secure tack room with plenty of space, a kettle and a fridge
Lovely outdoor school 
Good turnout only 2 minutes walk from the stables and plenty of grazing
Amazing hacking, bridleways everywhere and his own 400 acres which we're allowed to use as long as there's no livestock in there. 
A toilet 
Excellent security - all gates locked once he's finished on the farm and he does a late check before he goes back inside. 

And we're trying to convince him to get us a warm horse shower for the winter 

It's really lovely and I feel very lucky, the farmer does all the land management and keeps the fields looking well and his wife is a very good and experienced horse woman who offers assistance when needed and holiday cover. This might be why it's worthwhile for you to have a "designated yard manager"? If you can find the right people.

And also just to warn you, he's already had to ask two non-payers to leave and he only opened his gates in February! So be picky with who you invite onto your land. 

Also forgot to mention we're only in Northants so not overly far from you either so I shouldn't think pricing would differ too much? Hope this helps!


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## Maesto's Girl (18 May 2017)

100% on the having a proper toilet!

Also winter and summer turnout, a good school, proper fencing and decent sized stables


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## honetpot (18 May 2017)

Business plan! Contract! Payment in advance!

  Unless you are running it for family/or partner who are interested and want to support spending loads of money is a waste.
If you have 12 boxes and acres, I would look at someone who would rent the lot on a repairing lease.
 I would test the water first, what ever you do. If your fencing is good I would sub divide with electric and do grass livery with a stable, DIY and see what you get. You will get problems and then you can decide if you want the hassle before winter. You can decide if you need a manager, you can decide if you want to supply hay/bedding, before spending huge amounts of money. Everyone says they want a school, even DIY will cost £15-20k, then you have to maintain it. How will it affect your rates bill, its non-agricultural? In your area there may be over or under supply.
  Everyone farmer I know who does it says its hassle, you just have to decide whether the hassle is profitable.


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## James-Stephens2014 (18 May 2017)

Thank you everyone for the comments there are things on here I didn't think of and other things I already have covered. I have learnt a lot and the forum has definitely helped thank you. 

Lammy - that sounds like excellent value. 

Reference dating website comments that wasn't the intention. CVs are welcome via PM though


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## Cowpony (18 May 2017)

James-Stephens2014 said:



			Reference dating website comments that wasn't the intention. CVs are welcome via PM though 

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 That's the other thing nobody has mentioned yet - a yard owner with a sense of humour is priceless!


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## James-Stephens2014 (18 May 2017)

It sounds like i am going to need one!!!


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## Leo Walker (18 May 2017)

Lammy said:



			Also forgot to mention we're only in Northants so not overly far from you either so I shouldn't think pricing would differ too much? Hope this helps! 

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Where in Northants? I'm always keen to hear about good yards!


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## The Fuzzy Furry (18 May 2017)

meleeka said:



			I'd get a manager and only offer part/full livery. Echo a school, which will mean you can charge more. I think most people just want a tidy yard which is friendly and welcoming with safe facilities and decent turnout. A horse shower and rug drying room would be a bonus.
		
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Absolutely this.

Local arable farm does exactly this, with 15 boxes. They tried DIY for nearly 3 years, but it didn't work at all.


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## Greylegs (18 May 2017)

A kettle, tea bags and milk!! 

Everything else has been mentioned I think.


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## Fidgety (18 May 2017)

Greylegs said:



			A kettle, tea bags and milk!! 

Everything else has been mentioned I think.
		
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Nah, that's under the new Yard Manager's job description, including buying the loo rolls and soap for the newly installed loo .


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## Orangehorse (18 May 2017)

You need to think carefully about the contract and rules.  There are often very odd cases that pop up on here.  Like what happens to a horse if the owner isn't looking after it correctly, or what happens if there is a non-payer, like can you sell the horse to re-coup the loss. Things about deposits, payment in advance, health and safety - do you want babies and toddlers running round? 

If you can do the work to keep the fields in good condition and rotate and rest the land that would be a plus. You will also find that maintenance of the fences and buildings takes more time than you would expect.  I think nearly everyone would consider an arena important, although it is nice to have lots of off road hacking.

Some livery yards have strict times so that on a Sunday everyone has to be off the yard by a certain time, unless they are away at a competition.


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## James-Stephens2014 (18 May 2017)

Thank you everyone again. The farm is busy enough on the crops and this thread is making me concerned about the undertaking. Maybe a manager is a good idea... my house is big enough to offer live in etc as finding someone local may be tricky.... hmmm lot of thinking to do! 

Still no dating PMs


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## MeltingSnowflake (18 May 2017)

popsdosh said:



			I reckon you may be using this as a free 'dating site' LOL
		
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haha Agreed!


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## joosie (19 May 2017)

Actually I'm on the hunt for a single farmer! No jokes. Shame I'm not back in the UK until September... bet someone will have snapped you up by then!


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## little_critter (19 May 2017)

Laika said:



			Could not agree with this more... I have a portaloo at my yard and it's not the most dignifying thing to use 

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A portaloo! I'd love a portaloo. I have a bucket.


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## little_critter (19 May 2017)

James-Stephens2014 said:



			Thank you everyone again. The farm is busy enough on the crops and this thread is making me concerned about the undertaking. Maybe a manager is a good idea... my house is big enough to offer live in etc as finding someone local may be tricky.... hmmm lot of thinking to do! 

Still no dating PMs 

Click to expand...

If you feel you may not have time to be a yard manager then def get one in, a yard runs more smoothly if there is someone actually there making decisions / getting stuff done / keeping the peace.
I'm on a DIY yard with a very 'hands off' YO. It can be frustrating when you hear nothing from them for weeks, then a flurry of snippy notes appear on the board.
Luckily we are a good bunch and generally just get on with each other and don't abuse the place....but the hands off style wouldn't work if a livery or two decided to cause trouble.


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## Lammy (19 May 2017)

Leo Walker said:



			Where in Northants? I'm always keen to hear about good yards!
		
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I can PM you


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## James-Stephens2014 (19 May 2017)

joosie said:



			Actually I'm on the hunt for a single farmer! No jokes. Shame I'm not back in the UK until September... bet someone will have snapped you up by then!
		
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Why does he have to be a farmer out of interest..?


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## Sophire (19 May 2017)

I've kept my horses on working farms consistently for the past 4 years between where I am now and my ex's farm. I think it's manageable DIY, so long as there is a bit of management on your part.

My ex had only a few liveries, and very much left them to their own devices. Great stables in a barn with electric and water with adequate grazing, however no real facilities as such. No school, lunge area, individual paddocks etc. They were low maintenance, had one field to use as they wished, fencing, riding etc. and had field margins to hack on. Personally I only had my horse there as she was out of work and at the time it was convenient, should she have been in work I would need the facilities. The liveries they had were good as far as I knew although I didn't ever really chat to them as my horse was on a different part of the farm, but I think the point I'm trying to make is I think those who aren't basing themselves somewhere with a school may be less expectant of you and facilities they want, so long as it is reflected in the price too.

Where I am now is a large working farm, arable, sheep, open weekends, shoots etc. and have been there consecutively for about 2.5yrs. It is a large DIY livery yard, but then it is a large working farm 4-5 farm staff members, plus a dedicated secretary. There are approx. 50 horses and we have 2 schools, stables dotted in different barns across the farm and hopefully (fingers crossed) we're getting another specific lunge pen and walker (there have been talks for a year regarding the lunge pen and the walker has been in parts on the yard for at least a year, I'm not holding my breath!). I think it's easily workable to be DIY, but with 7 stables, maybe wouldn't bring in enough revenue? We're all aware that yard maintenance will get put on the back burner when it's time to make hay/ harvest but the general routine still remains which helps. We can only have hay/ straw/ bedding from the farm, everything is ordered during the week and delivered on a Monday. If you forget there's a surcharge added to your bill. We clear the jump school of jumps on a Sunday and it's rolled/ harrowed on a Monday. It's all about keeping up your end of the deal to keep liveries happy I think. Honestly - and I don't think it's just because I avoid yard drama like the plague - I think the yard runs well, sure there are things I'd personally improve on, but I think that's the same with any yard. We all get along and we're never overly expectant as liveries as the standards have been set from the start, so we all know what to expect. 

I'm rambling really but just wanted to put across my 2p re. the DIY option also. I could ramble more on the benefits of both to be honest, I'm sure we all could(!), so feel free to ask any more questions.


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## TheOldTrout (19 May 2017)

Whereabouts in Bucks are you? I'm in the far north of the county.


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## Auslander (19 May 2017)

James-Stephens2014 said:



			Why does he have to be a farmer out of interest..?
		
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Free grazing, in return for "favours" perhaps!


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## WelshD (19 May 2017)

I'd let it as a whole to one person, let them throw down some sand on a small paddock so it drains better and let them ride in there - it would do for most of the year

Spending a lot of money on an arena that you will have to maintain is a hell of a lot of money to spend on people who in many cases dont look after it while still moaning that the livery is too expensive - I dont see how any DIY livery yard owner stands a chance of making their money back on such a large expenditure


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## joosie (20 May 2017)

James-Stephens2014 said:



			Why does he have to be a farmer out of interest..?
		
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Well, I can't see myself being married to an accountant, let's put it that way. I'm attracted to young farmers, just my type I guess, I can't help myself! Plus, it would be my dream to live on a working farm and run an equestrian business from it, but I don't have the money to buy one and never will so the only solution I see is to marry into it


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## luckyoldme (20 May 2017)

basicly the best thing you can do is offer retirement livery.
ideal situation 12 horses and no owners.


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## luckyoldme (20 May 2017)

popsdosh said:



			I reckon you may be using this as a free 'dating site' LOL
		
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its like  rich bloke looking for gold digger!


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## Remi'sMum (20 May 2017)

I'm another with a dream to run an equestrian business - perhaps you should advertise on here for your yard manager?! I'd relocate for the right 'package' (no double entendre intended!!) &#128516;


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## James-Stephens2014 (20 May 2017)

Thank you everyone. Renting the yard to one person sounds like a winner but how would there be money in that for them by the time they hve paid a rent? 

Otherwise I am pricing up trying to fill it with part/full liverys, put in a outdoor school and then employ a manager. 75% horses and 25% farm work. Food and accom included... and I would actually treat them properly unlike these poor grooms that get the p*ss taken out of them!


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## Auslander (20 May 2017)

James-Stephens2014 said:



			Thank you everyone. Renting the yard to one person sounds like a winner but how would there be money in that for them by the time they hve paid a rent? 

Otherwise I am pricing up trying to fill it with part/full liverys, put in a outdoor school and then employ a manager. 75% horses and 25% farm work. Food and accom included... and I would actually treat them properly unlike these poor grooms that get the p*ss taken out of them!
		
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I rent a similarly sized setup (but including a house), and am under no illusions that I do it to pay for my own horses, rather than as a super-profitable business, and I think that's how many people see it. If I were you, I'd make sure that any takers (if you decide to rent it as a whole) have a viable business plan/existing business, and the acumen to run a business properly. Someone like this will be more likely to pay their bills, look after the horses in their care properly, and look after your yard. There are a lot of dreamers out there, who will jump in with their eyes firmly closed, and end up making a mess of things. Formal qualifications aren't the be all and end all, but they are an indicator of someone's experience, as is previous experience of running a yard successfully.

Just be aware that if you choose to employ a manager, you will also be inundated with people with stars in their eyes. It wold probably be wise  to get someone very experienced to assist you with the interview process, so that they can ask the questions that wouldn't necessarily be obvious to a non-horsey person, but will effectively rule out anyone who isn't up to the job. Sole charge management is pretty easy when things are going right, but takes a special sort of person when it comes to the tricky stuff - like telling an owner that their horse needs to be put to sleep on welfare grounds, or getting tough with non payers, or sorting out yard battles! Offering live -in accommodation is great, but with it not being a separate house, you're more likely to get youngsters than the sort of older, vastly experienced people that you actually need. There are young people out there who could do it, but they are few and far between.


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## Farmer Chalk (20 May 2017)

James-Stephens2014 said:



			Thank you everyone. Renting the yard to one person sounds like a winner but how would there be money in that for them by the time they hve paid a rent? 

Otherwise I am pricing up trying to fill it with part/full liverys, put in a outdoor school and then employ a manager. 75% horses and 25% farm work. Food and accom included... and I would actually treat them properly unlike these poor grooms that get the p*ss taken out of them!
		
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Sounds an absolutely perfect job for me...I'm young vivacious, a fellow farmer, know my beans around horses, and would love to be treated proper.... you sound perfect for me...are you ugly?....


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## James-Stephens2014 (20 May 2017)

Not sure who is being serious and who isn't here..... in all seriousness i have spoken to my accountant/advisor to put together a employment package for someone  as Described above and also spoken to my land agent about possible rental value. See what the cash flow forecasts look like!


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## Farmer Chalk (20 May 2017)

James-Stephens2014 said:



			Not sure who is being serious and who isn't here..... in all seriousness i have spoken to my accountant/advisor to put together a employment package for someone  as Described above and also spoken to my land agent about possible rental value. See what the cash flow forecasts look like!
		
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How rich are you?? In relation to my first question it might not matter too much dependant on your answer?  By the way I'm 6'2", long legs, built for shearing sheep, oh and male..... but my border collies love me!


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## only_me (20 May 2017)

Lammy said:



			If it helps I've just moved to a farm situated livery yard and this is what we have:

For £130 a month:

New internal stables in an airy barn with 2 spare for tying up
Outdoor concreted tie up area
Free unlimited straw included
Old container converted into a feed room so plenty of room and keeps the mice out!
Secure tack room with plenty of space, a kettle and a fridge
Lovely outdoor school 
Good turnout only 2 minutes walk from the stables and plenty of grazing
Amazing hacking, bridleways everywhere and his own 400 acres which we're allowed to use as long as there's no livestock in there. 
A toilet 
Excellent security - all gates locked once he's finished on the farm and he does a late check before he goes back inside. 

And we're trying to convince him to get us a warm horse shower for the winter 

It's really lovely and I feel very lucky, the farmer does all the land management and keeps the fields looking well and his wife is a very good and experienced horse woman who offers assistance when needed and holiday cover. This might be why it's worthwhile for you to have a "designated yard manager"? If you can find the right people.

And also just to warn you, he's already had to ask two non-payers to leave and he only opened his gates in February! So be picky with who you invite onto your land. 

Also forgot to mention we're only in Northants so not overly far from you either so I shouldn't think pricing would differ too much? Hope this helps! 

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£130 a month seems incredibly cheap for that!!


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## popsdosh (20 May 2017)

James-Stephens2014 said:



			Not sure who is being serious and who isn't here..... in all seriousness i have spoken to my accountant/advisor to put together a employment package for someone  as Described above and also spoken to my land agent about possible rental value. See what the cash flow forecasts look like!
		
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Rental value in general is around £25/box a week depending on facilities and then if they need acc thats on top. From a fellow farmer that did it think very carefully it can interfere to much with the core business unless it is well away from your main yard and not worth the aggro. Not sure you are truly getting the hassle involved . Certainly dont do it yourself and employ a manager for many reasons as many things will haunt you . Let it(let the Land agent deal with it) and let somebody else take the entrepreneurial risk. In our case we had 35 boxes it accounted for less than 4% of our income but took up 25% of our time it was one of our best days when the last one left. All your liveries will take over the management of your core business! However having loads of women about in tight jods may give you beer goggles as far as the overall business is concerned.


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## charterline (20 May 2017)

If you can entice a pro eventer/sj/Dressage type I'd think that would be your best bet... although they are likely to want accomodation with it


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## Goldenstar (20 May 2017)

It's only seven stables there's no way that will support you paying someone a wage .
Much better rent it as a whole it's a small yard you will get pros starting out and families wanting to be freed from DIY livery hell if you are  flexible you might get two or three friends sharing .
The land agent will tell you the going rate for the area .
There's plenty of grass so I would expect you will be overwhelmed with interest .


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## Leo Walker (20 May 2017)

only_me said:



			£130 a month seems incredibly cheap for that!!
		
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I get the same but ad lib haylage, and it really is ad lib but not bedding for £140 a month about 15 miles away on the other side of town. All year turn out, off road hacking from the yard, my own tackroom although its only about 6ft x 10ft, its still mine. And hes even let me store my cart in the barn, he even took the wheels off for me the other day when I didnt know how to do it.  The man is obsessed with maintenance as well, so the place is so well kept. Its only flaw is its 7.5miles away in the wrong direction for work, but its worth it for me


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## be positive (20 May 2017)

Goldenstar said:



			It's only seven stables there's no way that will support you paying someone a wage .
Much better rent it as a whole it's a small yard you will get pros starting out and families wanting to be freed from DIY livery hell if you are  flexible you might get two or three friends sharing .
The land agent will tell you the going rate for the area .
There's plenty of grass so I would expect you will be overwhelmed with interest .
		
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A businessman bought a successful yard near me a couple of years ago, having seen the books looked good, on paper he thought it was a way to make money, he soon found out that employing a manager took all of the "profit" and sold it on before he lost even more, a decent wage going out every month will leave the owner with nothing but they still have the bills to pay, if a livery leaves it will probably run at a loss that is assuming you can even get the yard full of full liveries in the first place.

Most people wanting full livery will expect a lot of facilities, they will be prepared to pay for a good service ad will want it 7 days a week which will mean another staff member to cover the managers day off, someone renting the whole lot will expect to do 7 days a week it will be  a lifestyle choice not a job.


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## Haniki (20 May 2017)

Have you posted on a farming forum asking for opinions?
This is a good one: https://thefarmingforum.co.uk/index.php
There is a rural diversification section.


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## James-Stephens2014 (20 May 2017)

I am going to wait and see what accountant comes back with regarding a employment package. Someone doing the horses and also farm work would be good. The funds are there for a school and I have room for more stables/turnout and loads and loads of private hacking on the farm. It's the economy of scale that's the question. 

It would also give me a outlet for hay, straw and haylage. 

It's whether employing someone live in is going to cost £20k or 30k or 40k etc. That has a big impact. But I know that grooms don't get treated very well and the right person given the opportunity to really run a yard starting with a blank canvas should appeal to good people. Also being treated like a human regarding holidays, pay etc. 

If I put 7 more stables up in other side of the barn and add a bit more grazing, and get full liverys at £120pw that's 14 x £120 which is good. That will cover financing the school and give a good return per acre on the grazing. Plus it uses up the barns that aren't suitable for grain.


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## Auslander (20 May 2017)

James-Stephens2014 said:



			I am going to wait and see what accountant comes back with regarding a employment package. Someone doing the horses and also farm work would be good. The funds are there for a school and I have room for more stables/turnout and loads and loads of private hacking on the farm. It's the economy of scale that's the question. 

It would also give me a outlet for hay, straw and haylage. 

It's whether employing someone live in is going to cost £20k or 30k or 40k etc. That has a big impact. But I know that grooms don't get treated very well and the right person given the opportunity to really run a yard starting with a blank canvas should appeal to good people. Also being treated like a human regarding holidays, pay etc. 

If I put 7 more stables up in other side of the barn and add a bit more grazing, and get full liverys at £120pw that's 14 x £120 which is good. That will cover financing the school and give a good return per acre on the grazing. Plus it uses up the barns that aren't suitable for grain.
		
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Sounds like you've got your head screwed on right - and done right, it could be a super yard.
If you have 14 full liveries - your person isn't going to be able to work on the farm too. To do a horse well on full livery, incl mucking out, turning out, bringing in, grooming, doing feeds, and so on takes around an hour a day per horse - and that's if the horse doesn't also need exercising. 14 full liveries is a lot for one person - I'd be looking at one full timer and one part timer for that many.


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## James-Stephens2014 (20 May 2017)

Thank you so based on your hourly workings - There are currently 7, so that's 7 hours a day... 7 x £120 = £840pw... that's reasonable! And cheap! 
School will cost me around £10k as have a digger myself and am decent at driving it, also have loads of clean stone and drainage pipes. That's a decent investment return. 

Just need figures back from accountant and then try to find the perfect employee!!! That's the hard bit I suspect.


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## Goldenstar (20 May 2017)

And employees need days off and sick leave and holidays so you need one and half people .


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## popsdosh (20 May 2017)

Sorry OP just to burst your bubble its not that simple . Paying one and half people ,feeding ,hay and bedding for seven horses you wont see any excess to pay back the investment . I was starting to be fooled into thinking you were for real! You can make £175 clear a week with no input!


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## popsdosh (20 May 2017)

James-Stephens2014 said:



			Thank you so based on your hourly workings - There are currently 7, so that's 7 hours a day... 7 x £120 = £840pw... that's reasonable! And cheap! 
School will cost me around £10k as have a digger myself and am decent at driving it, also have loads of clean stone and drainage pipes. That's a decent investment return. 

Just need figures back from accountant and then try to find the perfect employee!!! That's the hard bit I suspect.
		
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Not sure why you need figures back from an accountant as you can do it on the back of a fag packet. LOL


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## WelshD (20 May 2017)

luckyoldme said:



			basicly the best thing you can do is offer retirement livery.
ideal situation 12 horses and no owners.
		
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Yes ideal situation

no arena needed that way either


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## James-Stephens2014 (21 May 2017)

With regard to a live in yard manager would living in the house be suitable? 

It's just me so plenty of room and can offer private double bedroom with ennsuite and wifi etc but just wonder how it would work living with a employee like that...?

Also can allow own horse and dog etc. If they brought a horse do you dock wages or bill them like normal customer?


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## Auslander (21 May 2017)

James-Stephens2014 said:



			With regard to a live in yard manager would living in the house be suitable? 

It's just me so plenty of room and can offer private double bedroom with ennsuite and wifi etc but just wonder how it would work living with a employee like that...?

Also can allow own horse and dog etc. If they brought a horse do you dock wages or bill them like normal customer?
		
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In all honesty, you're on iffy ground, as a young, single man - offering live-in accommodation in your home to a young woman. Not sure quite how you get around that one.

Own horse is usually considered to be a perk of the job, to be looked after/ridden outside working hours. If' you're docking wages for livery, your employee will then expect to be able to fit her horse into her working day.


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## be positive (21 May 2017)

James-Stephens2014 said:



			With regard to a live in yard manager would living in the house be suitable? 

It's just me so plenty of room and can offer private double bedroom with ennsuite and wifi etc but just wonder how it would work living with a employee like that...?

Also can allow own horse and dog etc. If they brought a horse do you dock wages or bill them like normal customer?
		
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Someone "qualified" and experienced enough to be capable of managing a quality full livery yard will either be independent and want to live in their own space or may be in a relationship so have their own home or want to live in with their partner, what you are suggesting is more of what a less experienced groom will expect but as already said be Auslander sharing your home with someone, female or male is potentially an issue.


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## James-Stephens2014 (21 May 2017)

You have backed up what I was worried about. Anyone got any other views or do we all agree (for once  ) !


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## Cowpony (21 May 2017)

Agree. Not sure I'd want to live under the same roof as the boss. If you could make some self-contained accommodation out of your house or in an outbuilding it would be much more attractive. Unless you really are out to create a dating site


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## James-Stephens2014 (22 May 2017)

I think the distinct lack of anyone saying "I am interested" is also telling.


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## Auslander (22 May 2017)

James-Stephens2014 said:



			I think the distinct lack of anyone saying "I am interested" is also telling.
		
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You haven't read the HHO user manual (male version). Male posters only get mobbed if they talk about breeches/boots, or insinuate that they're worried about getting on a horse because of the  size of their, err, manhood. 

Yes, the above scenarios have both happened, fairly recently


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## Frumpoon (22 May 2017)

This isn't Tinder


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## moosea (22 May 2017)

Regarding the yard - why not rent it out and allow sub letting or let it out as a livery yard - that way you get the regular income with no hassles apart from one day a week on maintenance. You can still sell your hay/ haylage and straw. You also don't have a random person living in your home.

Regarding the dating applications ( or lack of ) can I just point out that us horsey women are all mad as a box of frogs and that you will NEVER be more important than the horses. If you are still interested in horsey women then I'd suggest that you train as a farrier - all the ones I know are smoking hot and it's a pleasure to watch them work ....  

Try posting a pic here too


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## Auslander (22 May 2017)

moosea said:



			I'd suggest that you train as a farrier - all the ones I know are smoking hot and it's a pleasure to watch them work .... 

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Where are these farriers you speak of?


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## moosea (22 May 2017)

Just ring all the ones local to you and tell them you are thinking of changing farrier - book them to come and look at horses feet. Make sure you book them for a hot day and have a cool drink and a chair ready to watch them 


( I am of course joking! )


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## Auslander (22 May 2017)

moosea said:



			Just ring all the ones local to you and tell them you are thinking of changing farrier - book them to come and look at horses feet. Make sure you book them for a hot day and have a cool drink and a chair ready to watch them 


( I am of course joking! )
		
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Ha Ha! To be fair, my farrier is drooled over by most of the female population, but he's a bit on the diddy side for me!


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## moosea (22 May 2017)

Auslander said:



			Ha Ha! To be fair, my farrier is drooled over by most of the female population, but he's a bit on the diddy side for me!
		
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Watch him work from sitting on the floor ... it'll make him seem taller!!!


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## Auslander (22 May 2017)

moosea said:



			Watch him work from sitting on the floor ... it'll make him seem taller!!!
		
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You'd think, right!


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## moosea (23 May 2017)

Auslander said:



			You'd think, right!





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Ahahahaha!!!


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## James-Stephens2014 (23 May 2017)

Frumpoon said:



			This isn't Tinder
		
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I'm not looking for a girlfriend, I am looking for a yard manager. Thanks for the constructive feedback.


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## James-Stephens2014 (25 May 2017)

Accountant came back with the employment figures and they are reasonable.... Land agent also came back with the rental value, which is tempting. 

I have been offered a used surface at excellent value and have a digger doing nothing so might put a ménage in and then decide. Either way it's going rhe menage will add value to the farm as have dead ground that would be perfect for it. 

Thanks for all your help.


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## MeltingSnowflake (25 May 2017)

Good luck!


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## James-Stephens2014 (14 June 2017)

Does anyone have a livery yard contract they are happy to let me look at? Obviously delete names/addresses etc, there are drafts available online but don't want to miss anything. Please PM if happy.


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## Auslander (14 June 2017)

James-Stephens2014 said:



			Does anyone have a livery yard contract they are happy to let me look at? Obviously delete names/addresses etc, there are drafts available online but don't want to miss anything. Please PM if happy.
		
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Sent!


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## smellsofhorse (14 June 2017)

To save you hassle.
Either rent as a whole of get in a manager!


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## dominobrown (15 June 2017)

I have just set up a livery yard... Two essentials are lots of valium and a wall to bash you head against &#55357;&#56837;&#55357;&#56837;


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## James-Stephens2014 (16 June 2017)

Question on ménage surfaces. What proportion of sand to rubber is best? The used surface I have bought which is tipped in a heap looks ok but don't want to lay and track it in if need to add more of something.


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## Snowy Celandine (16 June 2017)

Sorry but it's manège, not ménage  All good livery owners have to know this fact or their yards will never turn a profit, ha ha


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## Auslander (16 June 2017)

James-Stephens2014 said:



			Question on ménage surfaces. What proportion of sand to rubber is best? The used surface I have bought which is tipped in a heap looks ok but don't want to lay and track it in if need to add more of something.
		
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My preference would be for 1.5 sand to 0.5 rubber, ideally with additional fibre mixed in. I do like a firm surface though. A 50:50 mix would be a bit softer


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## DD (16 June 2017)

expect to spend lots more money than you envisaged, then expect everyone to want 5* facilities for £10 a week.


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## DD (16 June 2017)

James-Stephens2014 said:



			I am going to wait and see what accountant comes back with regarding a employment package. Someone doing the horses and also farm work would be good. The funds are there for a school and I have room for more stables/turnout and loads and loads of private hacking on the farm. It's the economy of scale that's the question. 

It would also give me a outlet for hay, straw and haylage. 

It's whether employing someone live in is going to cost £20k or 30k or 40k etc. That has a big impact. But I know that grooms don't get treated very well and the right person given the opportunity to really run a yard starting with a blank canvas should appeal to good people. Also being treated like a human regarding holidays, pay etc. 

If I put 7 more stables up in other side of the barn and add a bit more grazing, and get full liverys at £120pw that's 14 x £120 which is good. That will cover financing the school and give a good return per acre on the grazing. Plus it uses up the barns that aren't suitable for grain.
		
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£120 a week! good grief man expect people to pay for full livery. round here its hard to get anyone to pay £25 for DIY. unless you are near a rich commuter belt in the SE you'll really struggle and BTW no one will pay more than £3 for a bale of hay and want it delivered at that and if theres a single weed in it you'll get it thrown back at you.


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## Auslander (16 June 2017)

Downton Dame said:



			£120 a week! good grief man expect people to pay for full livery. round here its hard to get anyone to pay £25 for DIY. unless you are near a rich commuter belt in the SE you'll really struggle and BTW no one will pay more than £3 for a bale of hay and want it delivered at that and if theres a single weed in it you'll get it thrown back at you.
		
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£120 a week is good for full livery round here! Most of the high end yards in this area are charging over £1k a month


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## James-Stephens2014 (2 November 2017)

Hi all

Where would you recommend advertising? 

Obviously Facebook and local tack shops. Any other websites or anything I have missed?


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## Merlod (2 November 2017)

Sounds nice, you could stick a decent school in and try to rent it for sole use if you want the easiest life, other than that you could offer part/full and employ a yard manager but DIY always fills the stables quickly, usually with a waiting list for the good places, plus you won't have the expense of employment (and reliable cover up if they go off sick/ leave etc) but be prepared to lay down the law early and you'll still probably want to strangle some of them anyway! I know I do :/ Another thought would be youngstock/retirement as you wouldn't need a school etc just basic care so might be easier to manage.


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## SEL (2 November 2017)

Whereabouts in Bucks are you?


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## LaurenBay (2 November 2017)

I would stick with Facebook and local tackshops for now.

Did you manage to find a yard manager? I would kill for a position like that. Sadly too far for me. 

Good luck with your yard


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## James-Stephens2014 (5 November 2017)

Just off the M40 in south bucks! Really only looking for full or part livery and they seem quite rare... its ok though, no rush!! 

As for staff I have a lady that rents half the yard and her self employed groom will do services on any other horses and Ill just pay her per hour for work done for me. 

Alternatively Ill do a free livery for helping me out sort of deal with someone which a couple of people have offered - although they werent ideal.


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## Flicker (5 November 2017)

I&#8217;m sorry if I am repeating anyone else&#8217;s post, as I haven&#8217;t had time to read all the way through, but I would take a bit of time to draw up a nice, tight livery contract.  I would include in this the expectation of acceptable behaviour in terms of animal husbandry and in relation to other liveries, staff etc.  I would also include payment terms and consequences for late payment or non payment.  Making all parties aware right at the outset of their respective responsibilities makes it much easier to nip non compliance and possible conflict in the bud.


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## James-Stephens2014 (29 December 2017)

XC liability question. 
Hypothetically if I was to put XC jumps around a field margin for people to jump where do I stand liability wise? 
I have asked my insurers just wondering if anyone has any experience of such a issue.


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## chaps89 (29 December 2017)

A local yard has a xc course running around the edge of several fields. It's open for use by liveries and non-liveries and you have to sign a disclaimer with the usual sign your life away type disclaimers before riding round.
I know another yard in the area had a similar set up but for liveries only and they ended up removing the fences as the insurance costs were astronomical.


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## Frumpoon (29 December 2017)

Should be covered by your care, custody and control insurance but you can insist that your liveries have their own personal accident or liability insurance too.

The only thing to consider is that it might increase your business rates based in the area of land the jumps occupy but I'm not so sure in the machinations of this


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## pixie (29 December 2017)

Please make sure that all xc jumps are properly secured to the ground, including moveable jumps.  They can cause rotational falls if they are unfixed.


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## Theocat (29 December 2017)

chaps89 said:



			A local yard has a xc course running around the edge of several fields. It's open for use by liveries and non-liveries and you have to sign a disclaimer with the usual sign your life away type disclaimers before riding round.
I know another yard in the area had a similar set up but for liveries only and they ended up removing the fences as the insurance costs were astronomical.
		
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The disclaimers are worthless - if an accident is because of any failing by the course owner, they're liable regardless of what someone has signed.


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## James-Stephens2014 (29 December 2017)

Pixie - Yes maam!


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## popsdosh (31 December 2017)

Surely if you are farming you have liability cover for anybody coming onto the property ,your a fool if you havent. As above disclaimers will not stand up in law and are worthless if you are at fault you will be judged to be so. You will also need planning permission and be liable for business rates ,thats why many courses have closed.


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## chocolategirl (31 December 2017)

James-Stephens2014 said:



			XC liability question. 
Hypothetically if I was to put XC jumps around a field margin for people to jump where do I stand liability wise? 
I have asked my insurers just wondering if anyone has any experience of such a issue.
		
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Surely if you have asked your insurers youre better to listen to their advice and not advice from people on a forum? Im a YO and we have several XC jumps around our land, in my health and safety policy, which I make sure everyone signs to say they have read it, I state that these jumps are for my own personal use, however if clients choose to make use of them they do so at their own risk. Its a very grey area though so tread very very carefully. My insurance is extremely expensive in relation to the number of liveries I have, but sadly thats the world we live in, litigious! If I knew now what I knew 23 years ago when I started, I would never have set my yard up. Im in a very fortunate position though luckily for my liveries, I dont rely on the income from it thank god! Btw, I have been sued twice in 23 years both times for something that was the clients fault, so please whatever you do, make sure you have insurance, dont think it will never happen to you!


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