# Saracen Releve soak or not?



## Roasted Chestnuts (15 June 2017)

Looking at this feed for my old guy should he look to be fit for another winter.

Looking to keep it simple so I would be feeding a dry balancer for Am feed before he is turned out and potentially this with a good amount of soaked grass nits and his hay for PM feed.

He is fussy and cereal intolerant and I'm sick of having to make concoctions to get him to eat and take his medicine. At present he is getting two small feeds one with balancer and grassnuts and his meds and one with grassnuts and a small amount of chaff both with some watered down treacle for taste. You are lucky if there is 2inches deep of mush in each feed. This is all I can get him to eat unless I leave him in for hours  he's a pest. 

He is being ridden 2/3 times a week just to keep him ticking over, nothing strenuous but we are struggling muscle wise hence the gentle exercise to help build him up. He is PPID and medicated and not a good doer. Teeth are good and appetite in winter is good just for things he cannot have


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## Auslander (15 June 2017)

I've had several discussions with Saracen about it, as I have two that choke on it every time I feed it unsoaked! They say that it doesn't need to be soaked, but that if that works for me, it's fine! I've opted for soaking it, and have had no further issues with choke, and the horses do very well on it


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## Roasted Chestnuts (15 June 2017)

Auslander said:



			I've had several discussions with Saracen about it, as I have two that choke on it every time I feed it unsoaked! They say that it doesn't need to be soaked, but that if that works for me, it's fine! I've opted for soaking it, and have had no further issues with choke, and the horses do very well on it
		
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Thank you very much 

I soak everything, I've never had a horse of mine choke or colic in my care through soaking everything. The balancer the pellets are so small, I have soaked it just to see how much it swelled and it wasn't much so it set my mind at ease with that 

When I read the ingredients and saw the consistency my mind immediately said soak it ( unmollassed beet) but I wanted to be sure. 

I'm also glad you say yours do well on it, I'm hoping that the fact it looks like mx he will be fooled into thinking he's getting the beloved but forbidden cereal mix


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## ycbm (15 June 2017)

I would never feed anything which swells so much when wetted as a dry feed. It really plumps up in volume.


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## Goldenstar (15 June 2017)

I don't use it now but its good feed horses do very well on it


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## Auslander (15 June 2017)

ycbm said:



			I would never feed anything which swells so much when wetted as a dry feed. It really plumps up in volume.
		
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I took this to demonstrate to Saracen why I was concerned about feeding it damp, rather than soaked! Same amount in both buckets - left hand one soaked for a few hours


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## Roasted Chestnuts (15 June 2017)

Auslander said:



			I took this to demonstrate to Saracen why I was concerned about feeding it damp, rather than soaked! Same amount in both buckets - left hand one soaked for a few hours





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Wow! I will definitely be feeding it soaked! I've always soaked anything pelleted or mix regardless, I'll just do what I always do and make the next nights feeds up before I leave the yard the previous night. 

Thank you that picture just shows what happens when the feed hits the moisture in their stomachs, no wonder you see a lot of colic these days?!


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## Auslander (15 June 2017)

Black Beastie said:



			Thank you that picture just shows what happens when the feed hits the moisture in their stomachs, no wonder you see a lot of colic these days?!
		
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Actually - that's not correct. The stomach is full of acid, not water, so anything that hits it will start to break down before it swells up enough to cause an issue. I'm more inclined to blame long fibres, particularly high lignin ones like wheat straw, for causing impactions further back in the GI tract


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## Roasted Chestnuts (15 June 2017)

Auslander said:



			Actually - that's not correct. The stomach is full of acid, not water, so anything that hits it will start to break down before it swells up enough to cause an issue. I'm more inclined to blame long fibres, particularly high lignin ones like wheat straw, for causing impactions further back in the GI tract
		
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Hmmm ..... really?? That's not what I've been told, also witnessed choke and colic caused by unsoaked beet  absorbing moisture, off to go have a nosey as that's something I wasn't aware of, thanks for that again auslander


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## Auslander (15 June 2017)

Black Beastie said:



			Hmmm ..... really?? That's not what I've been told, also witnessed choke and colic caused by unsoaked beet  absorbing moisture, off to go have a nosey as that's something I wasn't aware of, thanks for that again auslander 

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Here's a bit of light reading http://equimed.com/health-centers/n...ng-4-popular-myths-about-beet-pulp-for-horses


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## ycbm (15 June 2017)

Auslander said:



			Actually - that's not correct. The stomach is full of acid, not water, so anything that hits it will start to break down before it swells up enough to cause an issue. I'm more inclined to blame long fibres, particularly high lignin ones like wheat straw, for causing impactions further back in the GI tract
		
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Acid is still moisture and full of water. If it was too concentrated it would eat its way out of the horse!    

All you need is for the horse to take a few mouthfuls, take a drink and wash it straight out of the stomach for it to swell in the small intestine. It's a risk I certainly wouldn't take, having seen the stuff.  It swells a lot more than sugar beet.


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## Auslander (15 June 2017)

ycbm said:



			Acid is still moisture and full of water. If it was too concentrated it would eat its way out of the horse!    

All you need is for the horse to take a few mouthfuls, take a drink and wash it straight out of the stomach for it to swell in the small intestine. It's a risk I certainly wouldn't take, having seen the stuff.  It swells a lot more than sugar beet.
		
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I bow to your superior knowledge...


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## ycbm (15 June 2017)

Auslander said:



			I bow to your superior knowledge...
		
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Do you feed it Auslander, out of interest?   And if so, do you feed it dry?


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## Auslander (15 June 2017)

ycbm said:



			Do you feed it Auslander, out of interest?   And if so, do you feed it dry?
		
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I've already answered those questions in the posts above

I'm interested in your view that feed can be washed through the stomach.


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## ycbm (15 June 2017)

Auslander said:



			I've already answered those questions in the posts above

I'm interested in your view that feed can be washed through the stomach.
		
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It's what I was taught forty years ago when I first kept horses.  I don't really worry if it's wrong or right, feeding something that swells as much as re-leve is not a risk I would take.

Apologies, I read all the posts but not the names of the posters, and your post number eight led me to believe that you had no issue with feeding re-leve dry, but I see that you do.


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## Auslander (15 June 2017)

ycbm said:



			It's what I was taught forty years ago when I first kept horses.  I don't really worry if it's wrong or right
		
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That's fine if it's a personal view, which isn't shared as fact. 
I was taught much the same (although not quite so many years ago), but like many things, I've revised my view in line with advances in veterinary science, which have blown many an old-school theory out of the water.


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## PapaFrita (15 June 2017)

ycbm said:



			Acid is still moisture and full of water. If it was too concentrated it would eat its way out of the horse!
		
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Mucus is why it doesn't eat its way of the horse  (and enzymes, depending on which part of the digestive tract you're refering to)


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## ycbm (15 June 2017)

PapaFrita said:



			Mucus is why it doesn't eat its way of the horse  (and enzymes, depending on which part of the digestive tract you're refering to)
		
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Horses salivate as they eat, adding water to the stomach, and the acid produced by the stomach  is already diluted,  it is not neat  acid.   Neat acid will eat most things!  But yes,  of course mucus protects the stomach from acid.


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## PapaFrita (15 June 2017)

ycbm said:



			Horses salivate as they eat, adding water to the stomach, and the acid produced by the stomach  is already diluted,  it is not neat  acid.   Neat acid will eat most things!  But yes,  of course mucus protects the stomach from acid.
		
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https://www.quora.com/Does-drinking-water-dilute-stomach-acid

Yes, I'm aware it's not talking about humans, but then again, you're VERY adamant about something you learnt 40 years ago and  "don't really worry if it's wrong or right"


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## ycbm (15 June 2017)

PapaFrita said:



https://www.quora.com/Does-drinking-water-dilute-stomach-acid

Yes, I'm aware it's not talking about humans, but then again, you're VERY adamant about something you learnt 40 years ago and  "don't really worry if it's wrong or right"
		
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 I am happy to be corrected at any time Papa Fritz, and try to acknowledge it every time anyone corrects me.

That's an interesting article which makes my original point very well. It says that the normal PH of stomach acid is 2. From what I have read, the PH of neat acid is 0 or very close to. That's a lot stronger. Which makes my original point to Auslander correct, that the stomach acid contains water, and the re-leve will swell in the stomach due to the liquid present.

But if you know better please do not hesitate to correct me and I will acknowledge that I have got it wrong.


Whatever, we all seem to agree that we aren't prepared to feed re-leve unsoaked, for safety's sake. So that's good, isn't it?


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## PapaFrita (15 June 2017)

Auslander said:



			That's fine if it's a personal view, which isn't shared as fact. 
I was taught much the same (although not quite so many years ago), but like many things, I've revised my view in line with advances in veterinary science, which have blown many an old-school theory out of the water.
		
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"Joy: All these facts and opinions look the same. I can't tell them apart.
Bing Bong: Happens to me all the time. Don't worry about it."


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## PapaFrita (15 June 2017)

ycbm said:



			That's an interesting article which makes my original point very well. It says that the normal PH of stomach acid is 2. From what I have read, the PH of neat acid is 0 or very close to. That's a lot stronger. Which makes my original point to Auslander correct, that the stomach acid contains water, and the re-leve will swell in the stomach due to the liquid present.
		
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Since the acid isn't neat, isn't its neat acidity essentially a moot point. Or a moo point, if you watch too much TV and like to quote Friends?

From Google
The most dorsal part of the stomach has the highest pH, usually close to 7, dropping to a pH of 3.0&#8211;6.0 near the margo plicatus, and reaching as low as 1.5&#8211;4.0 in the glandular regions.


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## Goldenstar (15 June 2017)

I always feed it dry never had an issue .
I used it for years .


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## Roasted Chestnuts (16 June 2017)

Auslander said:



			Here's a bit of light reading http://equimed.com/health-centers/n...ng-4-popular-myths-about-beet-pulp-for-horses

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Cheers 

Thanks all certainly must be merit to all these ideas as probably based on fact at some point or another. I enjoy learning different things as being 30+ years on horses it's changing al the time


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## NOISYGIRL (19 June 2017)

I soak it, fluffs up into a lovely mash


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## NOISYGIRL (19 June 2017)

Black Beastie said:



			Wow! I will definitely be feeding it soaked! I've always soaked anything pelleted or mix regardless, I'll just do what I always do and make the next nights feeds up before I leave the yard the previous night. 

Thank you that picture just shows what happens when the feed hits the moisture in their stomachs, no wonder you see a lot of colic these days?!
		
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You might find they will go smelly making them up the night before in the hot weather.  If you have a kettle at the yard you could use that to make it soak faster.  Mine has all meals soaked too, he choked couple of years ago, he is 38 now


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## Barker (27 July 2020)

Auslander said:



			I've had several discussions with Saracen about it, as I have two that choke on it every time I feed it unsoaked! They say that it doesn't need to be soaked, but that if that works for me, it's fine! I've opted for soaking it, and have had no further issues with choke, and the horses do very well on it
		
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Auslander what did they say or do when you told them of the choke your horses had on it?


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## Auslander (27 July 2020)

Barker said:



			Auslander what did they say or do when you told them of the choke your horses had on it?
		
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Not a lot, if I remember correctly. Said they were sorry my horses choked, but said they'd never heard of it happening before. Didn't seem prepared to agree that there may be something in my conviction that it was Releve that made both horses choke - seeing as they had never choked before, both choked every time they had Releve, and haven't choked since.
I'm still cross about bot having my concerns taken seriously - I used to feed my whole yard on Saracen, but I voted with my feet after that


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## Barker (28 July 2020)

Could I talk to you privately?


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## MissTyc (28 July 2020)

One of mine choked on it dry or moist, as well, so I always fed it soaked. Changed feed now to one where I don't worry that others might not sufficiently soak it for me. 
(the other horse was fine unsoaked)


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## Barker (28 July 2020)

There have been a lot of people coming forward and saying the same thing on Facebook at the moment. Saracen have said they will investigate it. Think the more people that report it to Saracen the better and hopefully they will get to the bottom of the issue.


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## ycbm (28 July 2020)

The issue is that it swells like crazy in a very short space of time.  Other foods that do the same,  like grass nuts,  are recommended to be fed soaked or with chaff to slow down how much can be swallowed at once. 

I thought it was dangerous dry when I used it, as you can see from my earlier posts,  and I would never feed it dry.  
.


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