# When you're done with horses but horse is unsellable?



## Daniel_Jack (9 October 2022)

Currently a hypothetical question but slowly morphing into a real concern. 

I have a 12 year old retired e mare. Owned her for about 4 1/2 years and while she's lovely and calm and steady she was never really what I wanted so we didn't really click. 

She developed issues 2 years ago that led to me retiring her 12 months ago. She could probably do very light hacking and schooling in walk but I have neither the time or inclination to do this due to a young family. 

She's on retirement livery costing me about £300 a month and I visit her twice a month. 

Before she went lame I planned to sell her but she's pretty much worthless now and I worry about her ending up in the wrong hands as she's so stoic with regards to her injury. 

If I'm 100% honest I don't want to own a horse anymore. However I feel obligated to keep her. 

She's field sound and will probably stay that way for many years as the injury is only aggravated by exercise and the thought of it makes me miserable. 

With the costs of living these days I could really do without the additional costs and I get no joy out of her but I just don't think she'd sell and pts seems selfish and extreme when she is living a lovely life!. 

Not sure there is an alternative solution to this but thought others may have had similar experience and can give some advice!


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## ycbm (9 October 2022)

In the current economic climate I don't think anyone could reasonably blame you for having her PTS, £3600 a year and rising will go a long way to paying for gas and electricity. 

A dead horse can never be abused,  unhappy or in pain and she sounds far too much at risk of being buted up and sold on for a profit by someone unscrupulous.
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## Fjord (9 October 2022)

It might be an unpopular option for some but PTS is definitely not the worst option. I don't think you could realistically pass her on unless you knew someone personally who wanted a companion, and it would have to be someone you trusted implicitly. Horses don't think of the future, having her PTS happy and contented with a full belly in familiar surroundings is a privilege many don't get.


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## Barton Bounty (9 October 2022)

Someone out there will be looking for what you have, try loaning first, on a permanent basis ☺️


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## Ali27 (9 October 2022)

You could try putting her on loan as a companion! There are some lovely genuine homes out there! I got a lovely 13hh Welsh mare on loan a few years ago as was “cold backed” and couldn’t be ridden! I bought her for £100 a few months later, she will be with me for life! She is the best, calmest companion ever and worth her weight in gold! My 20 year old ridden mare loves her and so does new 2 1/2 baby pony!


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## Amymay (9 October 2022)

You could try a companion home for her.

But I’ve put a lame horse down that could have roamed a field happily for the next 15 years.  Felt truly awful about it. But couldn’t pass him on and was quickly running out of money.


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## ycbm (9 October 2022)

I was once given a horse which was loaned out as non rideable to a "forever home".  His owner recovered him after he was sold to a show jumping home and went lame again. I got him sound with a barefoot rehab and then did the right thing when he turned out to be dangerous to ride.


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## poiuytrewq (9 October 2022)

I really really admire your honesty. 
I currently have two knackered horses. I love them but in all honestly don’t really want two knackered horses even though I still have a rideable one. 
It’s ok to call it a day in your situ. It’s far  kinder and better than passing her on.


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## ycbm (9 October 2022)

A loan horse can also be sent back with no notice.  
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## Flame_ (9 October 2022)

Daniel_Jack said:



			Currently a hypothetical question but slowly morphing into a real concern.

I have a 12 year old retired e mare. Owned her for about 4 1/2 years and while she's lovely and calm and steady she was never really what I wanted so we didn't really click.

She developed issues 2 years ago that led to me retiring her 12 months ago. She could probably do very light hacking and schooling in walk but I have neither the time or inclination to do this due to a young family.

She's on retirement livery costing me about £300 a month and I visit her twice a month.

Before she went lame I planned to sell her but she's pretty much worthless now and I worry about her ending up in the wrong hands as she's so stoic with regards to her injury.

If I'm 100% honest I don't want to own a horse anymore. However I feel obligated to keep her.

She's field sound and will probably stay that way for many years as the injury is only aggravated by exercise and the thought of it makes me miserable.

With the costs of living these days I could really do without the additional costs and I get no joy out of her but I just don't think she'd sell and pts seems selfish and extreme when she is living a lovely life!.

Not sure there is an alternative solution to this but thought others may have had similar experience and can give some advice!
		
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If she's quality, and the injury isn't conformation or hereditary weakness related, you might find her a breeding home.


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## fankino04 (9 October 2022)

Don't know much about it but is the blood bank worth an enquiry? I'd love a companion for mine as its such a pain trying to fit in with other liveries especially as mine is such a good doer but can't afford the extra livery as don't have my own land, maybe there's someone similar local to you who would make things cheaper by having her on grass livery and doing all the work if you paid the livery, mines only £130 per month so dramatically reduces the current cost???


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## Waxwing (9 October 2022)

I was discussing this with someone who run a riding school; slightly different but from their perspective they cannot provide open ended retirement for every horse that can no longer work in the riding school. The workload of the older horses is gradually decreased and they usually get a year or so the field once they can no longer be ridden. They same person also pointed out that very few horses in their experience die naturally of old age; at some point they usually develop a health issue that means the best thing is for them to be put to sleep. It may be entirely possible to find your horse an appropriate home as a companion but if not pts is not an unreasonable choice and one I would seriously consider in your situation. Please be kind to yourself whatever you decide.


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## Cortez (9 October 2022)

Flame_ said:



			If she's quality, and the injury isn't conformation or hereditary weakness related, you might find her a breeding home.
		
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Please don't do this. I am not a pet horse owner, my horses are there to work. I have rarely sold horses on (other than when I was running a stud farm, 25+ years ago). I have always tried to give my horses at least a couple of years retired in the field,  and euthanise before they become uncomfortable and miserable.


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## Flame_ (9 October 2022)

Cortez said:



			Please don't do this. I am not a pet horse owner, my horses are there to work. I have rarely sold horses on (other than when I was running a stud farm, 25+ years ago). I have always tried to give my horses at least a couple of years retired in the field,  and euthanise before they become uncomfortable and miserable.
		
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Lots of perfectly decent, blemished horses have a valid use as a brood mare. Why destroy them instead? That's just a waste.


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## ponynutz (9 October 2022)

Sounds like a nice companion or broodmare. Would have to vet whoever offered something first or do a LWVTB. May take some more time than selling but there are some really nice homes out there. 

I'd exhaust all options before I got to PTS but also am aware of the financial climate we find ourselves in.


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## ycbm (9 October 2022)

The OP says she developed issues,  not that she was injured,  and if a mare can't stand work at under 12 years old it really shouldn't be bred from, for the sake of anyone who might buy the offspring in future. 
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## ponynutz (9 October 2022)

ycbm said:



			The OP says she developed issues,  not that she was injured,  and if a mare can't stand work at under 12 years old it really shouldn't be bred from, for the sake of anyone who might buy the offspring in future.
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I would describe my 16 year old mare who has hock issues as having 'developed issues' even though it is really an injury. They're synonymous in my view one just doesn't go into too much detail.

See your point though! Having kept pony on a stud farm before I do also know there's some broodmares (might have another name) that aren't bred from but act as a *ahem* enticement shall we say.


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## Flame_ (9 October 2022)

Daniel_Jack said:



			She's field sound and will probably stay that way for many years as the injury is only aggravated by exercise
		
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## ycbm (9 October 2022)

Flame_ said:



			She's field sound and will probably stay that way for many years as the injury is only aggravated by exercise
		
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A perfect description of the kind of horse unscrupulous people sell on for a nice fat profit. 

Those of us who have bought and sold horses that were mistreated no matter how well vetted the potential owners/loaners were (and I have had one of each) know that the only way to absolutely guarantee a horse will never be mistreated,  in pain,  or returned at short notice when you no longer have facilities to keep it,  is to PTS.  There's absolutely no shame in it,  the horse doesn’t know it might have lived longer,  it isn't making plans for what it's going to do next week.


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## ponynutz (9 October 2022)

OP, the financial climate can make something rather unkind become a kindness but I do think there are options beforehand. It is your decision and there's no shame in what you decide. I think this thread has effectively covered both sides of an argument for you to be able to make that decision and I'm sure it will continue to do so.


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## Flame_ (9 October 2022)

ycbm said:



			A perfect description of the kind of horse unscrupulous people sell on for a nice fat profit.
That's all horses.
Those of us who have bought and sold horses that were mistreated no matter how well vetted the potential owners/loaners were (and I have had one of each) know that the only way to absolutely guarantee a horse will never be mistreated,  in pain,  or returned at short notice when you no longer have facilities to keep it,  is to PTS.  There's absolutely no shame in it,  the horse doesn’t know it might have lived longer,  it isn't making plans for what it's going to do next week.
		
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True, but aren't you comfortable with passing horses on to another home when there is a genuine useful future for them in some role, just not the one you wanted them for? Lots of people rehome older eventers to hunting homes, unsound endurance horses to hacking homes, etc. As long as the horse has a value to someone with a job it can do for them, and you do your best to set up finding that person, I don't agree that that it's always best just to put the horses down as if to be on the safe side. That's a bit drastic and very wasteful. Although there are loads of potential reasons this horse might not be suitable for a breeding home this injury isn't necessarily one of them.


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## Glitterandrainbows (9 October 2022)

I barely leave walk and have always preferred spending time grooming to riding so everyone wants different things in horses I suppose sorry your in this situation I hope you sort it out soon x


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## Crazy_cat_lady (9 October 2022)

I was in exactly your position with a 24 year old with Cushing's. Had been done with horses for several years due to the costs and I'd lost all interest but kept plodding on with him pootling out hacking as I had no interest in schooling.

The announcement about how energy costs were going to soar led me to decide to PTS. I'd been struggling to afford him and knew I'd need to be able to contribute more to the household bills and what's more, I wanted to contribute more but before a huge chunk of my money was going on the horse.

Since, I haven't ridden in months bar once on holiday, which I enjoyed but even that didn't reignite the passion I had for so long.

People change, and at least if you did decide to PTS, she's not being passed on or living an uncertain future, you can control what happens to her. I could no longer afford to buy wood pellets for example, I'd struggle before they have now doubled in price and are reaching the same amount as a mortgage payment, it's obscene


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## MuddyMonster (9 October 2022)

I'm another that would PTS.

I wouldn't be comfortable with a horse I knew wasn't 100%, had owned &  loved (or even didn't love, to be honest) being moved on.

I personally don't consider it to be wasteful, I consider it to be a final kindness to secure their future.

But it's a blooming hard decision for you either way so you won't find any judgement from me no matter what you choose to do.


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## NR88 (9 October 2022)

People should only be breeding the best to the best. In an ideal world only graded horses could be used for  breeding and it would be licensed. So many owners breeding from unsound mares simply because they have a uterus.

No horse goes to the Blood Bank for its benefit; only for the owners convenience allowing them to wash their hands of the horse and of making the humane decision. Saves them money too 🙄 Frees them up nicely for their next horse as well😏

No one with their head screwed on wants a horse with issues as a companion and anyone with sense would be wary of those that do. There have been so many threads on here about horses loaned out as companions only to end up sold as riding horses. As written above loan horses can boomerang back too, then what?

PTS is a kindness for a compromised horse. The owner can sleep peacefully knowing exactly where their horse is. As this forum has proven, and is proving, time and time again there are far worst fates for a horse than to be peacefully put to sleep at home.


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## Flame_ (10 October 2022)

NR88 said:



			People should only be breeding the best to the best. The best of the best do get injured as well as the worst.In an ideal world only graded horses could be used for  breeding and it would be licensed. I don't know, a lot of much loved horses in a lot of good homes didn't come out of top class, highly pedigreed mares. Often the highly bred ones are harder to find secure homes for because they are required to live up to performance criteria. In some ways what's needed are more crossbred "average joes".So many owners breeding from unsound mares simply because they have a uterus.

No horse goes to the Blood Bank for its benefit; BS. Horse gets to live its life out in a herd with few demands made of it for many years rather than being put  down, that's a considerable benefit to it IMO.only for the owners convenience allowing them to wash their hands of the horse and of making the humane decision or they consider the blood bank another option for some horses. I am willing and able to have horses put to sleep, I still sent one to the blood bank because I viewed it as a superior option for that horse.  Saves them money too 🙄 Not accurate. You often have the upkeep of the horse for a considerable length of time until there is an intake, and then you have transport costs. Frees them up nicely for their next horse as well😏 And this is a bad thing, why?

No one with their head screwed on wants a horse with issues as a companion and anyone with sense would be wary of those that do. How on earth do all the rescue charities manage to place so many of their companion only charges then? Most have some issues, mine certainly does. I don't mind a bit - what do you expect for a few hundred quid? There have been so many threads on here about horses loaned out as companions only to end up sold as riding horses. As written above loan horses can boomerang back too, then what?

PTS is a kindness for a compromised horse. The owner can sleep peacefully knowing exactly where their horse is. As this forum has proven, and is proving, time and time again there are far worst fates for a horse than to be peacefully put to sleep at home.
		
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Again, true but to me a bit of a lazy cop out to not even entertain other options for a horse with some things to offer in the right home.


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## KJ94 (10 October 2022)

I personally wouldn’t PTS until other options had been explored first. You’d be surprised how many people are looking for companion horses/light hacking horses. 

You may stumble across the perfect home for them, and if you do, great! If not, you’ll be able to know you tried which may also make the decision easier on yourself. (Or at least that’s my opinion I know it’s a very touchy subject and everyone’s different! I hope you’re okay!)


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## cauda equina (10 October 2022)

People want different things from their horses; if she's easy and sensible to hack she might find a home with someone who wanted to potter round occasionally

And I don't know anything about this, like is it a nice life and so on, but mares are used as recipients for embryo transfers


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## ycbm (10 October 2022)

Flame_ said:



			True, but aren't you comfortable with passing horses on to another home when there is a genuine useful future for them in some role, just not the one you wanted them for?
		
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No I'm not.  This is why.  I vetted this 'light work only"  horse's new home to within an inch of her life. I even interviewed one of her liveries. It took her four months to turn a bonny horse into this :




I bought him back and got him well again and he went to someone who did absolutely adore him.  She even paid to export him to the US when she went home.  But it didn't stop her shoeing him when I told her it would make him lame,  it didn't stop her having him operated on for colic when that isn't an operation I would have allowed and it didn't stop me knowing that his last 14 days on earth were full of pain and suffering.

I had another which eventually came to me,  and ended with me.  Given by his owner on permanent loan to a "wonderful" person who promised a home for life for light hacking.  She sold him as a show jumper weeks later.

We had another on the forum only this week.  The story this time has ended well,  so far, but the horse was sold for a tiny amount as a companion due to health issues. There was another forum one last year,  sold on loan in lockdown, turns up on Facebook being ridden lame.

It happens far too often.  The only 100%way to guarantee a horse's future is for it to be dead,  sadly.



Flame_ said:



			Again, true but to me a bit of a lazy cop out to not even entertain other options for a horse with some things to offer in the right home.
		
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Maybe you understand now how I know it's not a lazy cop-out.
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## Barton Bounty (10 October 2022)

Original poster also said that she could do light hacking and schooling in walk, there are people out there that just want to pootle around the countryside. Maybe someone just getting back into horses.


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## Barton Bounty (10 October 2022)

ycbm said:



			No I'm not.  This is why.  I vetted this 'light work only"  horse's new home to within an inch of her life. I even interviewed one of her liveries. It took her four months to turn a bonny horse into this :

View attachment 100466


I bought him back and got him well again and he went to someone who did absolutely adore him.  She even paid to export him to the US when she went home.  But it didn't stop her shoeing him when I told her it would make him lame,  it didn't stop her having him operated on for colic when that isn't an operation I would have allowed and it didn't stop me knowing that his last 14 days on earth were full of pain and suffering.

I had another which eventually came to me,  and ended with me.  Given by his owner on permanent loan to a "wonderful" person who promised a home for life for light hacking.  She sold him as a show jumper weeks later.

We had another on the forum only this week.  The story this time has ended well,  so far, but the horse was sold for a tiny amount as a companion due to health issues.

It happens far too often.  The only 100%way to guarantee a horse's future is for it to be dead,  sadly.




Maybe you understand now how I know its not a lazy cop-out.
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Oh my goodness! That is terrible, so sorry @ycbm . My boy when I took him back wasnt as bad as that, just on the lean side. That is a heartbreaking picture


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## ycbm (10 October 2022)

Please DJ, do what will make you feel as if you've done the right thing for your horse and yourself.  If that is to find another home for her,  try and make it one where you can keep a close eye for a long time,  or where you can forget her completely. 
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## millitiger (10 October 2022)

I would PTS.

Unless you already have a friend, you trust, who wants her.

I wouldn't trust a stranger to loan a horse with issues which means it can't even trot without lameness.
There are too many unscrupulous people out there, who find a value in anything.

I certainly wouldn't breed from her, unless she has good breeding, exceptional conformation and a good performance record .

There are so many worse things for a horse than being PTS in a home they feel happy and safe.


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## Daniel_Jack (10 October 2022)

Thanks everyone who has taken the time to reply.

Just to respond to some of the suggestions -

Broodmare - not an option. She has awful feet and conformation that are the underlying cause of her lameness.

Companion home - this is my dream and if I truly thought it a possibility I'd absolutely go down this route but am realistic that a horse like mine that has sweet itch and weight issues (extremely good doer) are not always so in demand due to the level of effort required to maintain them.

Loaning - not something I'd consider. The risk of them being dumped back on your doorstep is too high and not one I'm willing to take.

For now I won't be making any decisions but livery prices are going up by £60 a month in the spring and that may be the catalyst.

I will however make some enquiries with friends about possible companion homes but don't think I'd pass her to someone that wasn't at least a friend of a friend.


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## rabatsa (10 October 2022)

You obviously felt the horse needed retirement, otherwise you would not have chosen retirement livery.

The next step is NOT to pass the horse on but to give a peaceful end in a place that it knows.

Selling/giving the mare away is not going to be the kindest thing to do in this economic climate as a lot of those who can afford a "pet" now may not be able to do so in 6 months time.

Breeding is an expensive business, unless it is a bin end breeder who cuts corners.  Those who can afford to breed in this climate should be choosing the best mares that they can, not ones that have had to retire early.  It is also a long term business as a foal would not be sellable for another two years and as the horse market looks to be heading downwards the costs stand a good chance of not being recouperated.

From your post I feel that you know which decission you should really make and it is between coughing up for livery or pts.

Just seen your update so much of this is not needed.


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## scats (10 October 2022)

I put one to sleep who was 13 but frankly a liability.  Retirement herd was great in summer but come autumn he dropped a tonne of weight and reverted to cribbing at the fence all day and night.  Lameness issues were still apparent and he had numerous other issues that made him very difficult to manage.  I did bring him home initially but he caused a few issues with my mare at the time and she also had health problems that needed careful management.  I decided that as he’d had a nice summer retirement, I’d call it a day with him.  Many probably didn’t agree with my decision (a few on here were vocal about it) but I have no regrets.  He was a horse full of issues who had been passed from pillar to post and I felt it was my responsibility to ensure he didn’t face an uncertain future.


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## j1ffy (10 October 2022)

Another one here who had a horse permanently loaned as a companion that ended up being flogged by teenagers in a dealer's yard...he was lucky as a lovely lady found him and traced me (through this forum) but he was in a bad way when she got him. 

I also say PTS - your horse will know no different, other than having a bucketful of apples and carrots. You've provided her with a lovely retirement for a couple of years and it's better to say goodbye now than seeing her deteriorate. Even worse to put her somewhere cheaper that may not provide the expected care (this happened to a friend's horse and it was traumatic).

A friend recently did just that with her mare, who she retired four years ago due to SI issues and other problems (so wouldn't have been suitable as a surrogate broodmare, which is an option for some) but increasing livery costs were hard to swallow. She was very careful who she told but once she had made the decision she felt a weight had been lifted from her shoulders.

Best of luck with whatever you decide.


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## w1bbler (10 October 2022)

If its permission to PTS you're looking then you have it. There are far worse fates for a horse than a quick end.
There are some stories of older or unrideable horses finding good new homes. There are far more of them being passed from home to home & ending up neglected / broken.
If you can't/ don't want to keep the horse in retirement then don't.


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## Pinkvboots (10 October 2022)

Daniel_Jack said:



			Thanks everyone who has taken the time to reply.

Just to respond to some of the suggestions -

Broodmare - not an option. She has awful feet and conformation that are the underlying cause of her lameness.

Companion home - this is my dream and if I truly thought it a possibility I'd absolutely go down this route but am realistic that a horse like mine that has sweet itch and weight issues (extremely good doer) are not always so in demand due to the level of effort required to maintain them.

Loaning - not something I'd consider. The risk of them being dumped back on your doorstep is too high and not one I'm willing to take.

For now I won't be making any decisions but livery prices are going up by £60 a month in the spring and that may be the catalyst.

I will however make some enquiries with friends about possible companion homes but don't think I'd pass her to someone that wasn't at least a friend of a friend.
		
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I think unless someone you know wants her as a companion and you can keep an eye on her I would pts,  Sorry its a rubbish situation to be in.


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## Goldenstar (10 October 2022)

You are absolutely discharging your responsibility as a good owner if in the circumstances you describe you PTS.


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## babymare (10 October 2022)

Having PTS a half blind beautiful but with issues 14 yr mare without looking at alternatives I can honestly say it is not a lazy cop out! Hardest decision I have made! Oh I had people willing to have her but knew they would instantly have put her in foal! PTs is not an easy decision but a decision that ensures the horse is not passed around


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## Birker2020 (10 October 2022)

Daniel_Jack said:



			Currently a hypothetical question but slowly morphing into a real concern.

I have a 12 year old retired e mare. Owned her for about 4 1/2 years and while she's lovely and calm and steady she was never really what I wanted so we didn't really click.

She developed issues 2 years ago that led to me retiring her 12 months ago. She could probably do very light hacking and schooling in walk but I have neither the time or inclination to do this due to a young family.

She's on retirement livery costing me about £300 a month and I visit her twice a month.

Before she went lame I planned to sell her but she's pretty much worthless now and I worry about her ending up in the wrong hands as she's so stoic with regards to her injury.

If I'm 100% honest I don't want to own a horse anymore. However I feel obligated to keep her.

She's field sound and will probably stay that way for many years as the injury is only aggravated by exercise and the thought of it makes me miserable.

With the costs of living these days I could really do without the additional costs and I get no joy out of her but I just don't think she'd sell and pts seems selfish and extreme when she is living a lovely life!.

Not sure there is an alternative solution to this but thought others may have had similar experience and can give some advice!
		
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I'm faced with the same problem after being missold a horse last year who has multiple issues and will never stay sound/comfortable despite thousands of pounds worth of vet intervention.  He's only 11 and I feel he would love being out in a herd environment.  More importantly he's not needle shy so I'm trying to get him in at the blood bank next year and he can live pain free off medication (he only hurts when he's ridden). 

Its been a terribly hard decision for me as the alternative is PTS, I wouldn't comtemplate selling him as he'd end up reinjured sooner rather than later (its clear he can't cope with work as its been tried three times now) and the thought he might get passed from pillar to post would be too horrific to contemplate.  So the blood bank is the best thing IMHO. Its either that or PTS if I can't get him in.


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## Daniel_Jack (10 October 2022)

Thank you.

It's all a bit rubbish and its so frustrating to be in this situation.

This wee mare does not deserve this. She is such a lovely girl despite having a poor start in life with about 6 homes (some good some not) plus a riding school stint in her life.

She's been with me longer than any of her other owners and it's just a shame that things have turned out the way they have.


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## Dru (10 October 2022)

Gosh, I could have written this only my horse isn't quite at retirement stage yet. I think the worst thing is to sell them on when the risk of mistreatment is so high. Of all the options I've identified for my own situation, selling is the least likely. I could probably sell mine quite easily if I didn't disclose her persistent problem with ulcers but she'd end up in pain and unhappy unless she found another mug willing to throw tens of thousands at her. 

I think the poster who said about seeking permission for PTS is spot on, I want someone to tell me that I'd not be a terrible human for killing my horse if it comes to it. I'm not there yet but it's becoming more and more likely as I can not spend thousands treating her again.


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## Birker2020 (10 October 2022)

Dru said:



			I think the poster who said about seeking permission for PTS is spot on, I want someone to tell me that I'd not be a terrible human for killing my horse if it comes to it. I'm not there yet but it's becoming more and more likely as I can not spend thousands treating her again.
		
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You have to make the ultimate decision, at the end of the day no one knows a horse like its owner/vet and you don't have to seek affirmation from others that having a horse pts is the right thing to do, if the vet felt it wasn't they would say.  I've asked my vet in my horses case "would you support me if my decision was to pts" and he gave a wholehearted yes, at the same time he also supported my decision to send to the blood bank saying the horse wouldn't need to be on pain medication.

Its very hard when you are on a forum trying to describe an animal you see day in day out, people can form well meaning opinions but not based on what is front of their eyes, if you understand.  Its a very small snapshot.  You have to do the right thing, what suits your horse and yourself and not be swayed by others opinions which is very hard at times.


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## PipsqueakXy22 (10 October 2022)

Flame_ said:



Again, true but to me a bit of a lazy cop out to not even entertain other options for a horse with some things to offer in the right home.

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OP is exploring options hence her post, all everyone else is saying is if she does find herself in the situation that there’s no other sensible option, no one would blame her if she decides to pts.


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## Birker2020 (10 October 2022)

Cortez said:



			Please don't do this. I am not a pet horse owner, my horses are there to work. I have rarely sold horses on (other than when I was running a stud farm, 25+ years ago). I have always tried to give my horses at least a couple of years retired in the field,  and euthanise before they become uncomfortable and miserable.
		
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The thing is the vast majority of people are on livery yards and don't have the benefit of being able to retire horses and buy another ride when their livery equates to several hundred pounds every month.  So whilst this suggestion might work for you (and I don't begrudge you this) it wouldn't work for a lot of people.


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## Carlosmum (10 October 2022)

I am another who would PTS.  In fact I did just that with my boy.  He was a laminitis sufferer, with a bit of hard work... exercise and limited grazing we could have kept him sound, but for various other reasons I no longer wanted to ride him.  Turning out to retirement was not an option, so we said goodbye, I feel only relief.


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## SO1 (10 October 2022)

PTS your is not a lazy cop out. It is probably the hardest and most difficult decision most horse owners have to make. I think it is a bit insensitive. 

The horse has been retired for several years. To bring it back into work even as a light hack in order to send it to loan home may not be easy for OP from a retirment yard. If OP wants to loan out as a walk hack or companion she needs to make sure the horse is up to the job. A lot of companion horses have to be ok being left on their own whilst the other horse is ridden and the horse has not been hacked for years. I don't think it is as easy as find someone to loan it. Yes people want walk hacks and companions but how many would want the risk of taking on a horse as a walk hack that hadn't been hacked for years or a companion horse that may not be able to be left on its own. 

I think there will be more people with retired horses in this situation with the rise in energy costs and mortgage rates and livery, people may no longer have any money to spare and unable to sell in horrible situation. Not everyone can go out and get a better paid job or downsize their housing to increase their disposable income. 

The only option I can think of is trying to find a cheap grass livery near to home but then you still have worming, feet trims, vaccinations and dental work which probably would push up to almost the same price if you include fuel to get to the yard each day. 



Flame_ said:



Again, true but to me a bit of a lazy cop out to not even entertain other options for a horse with some things to offer in the right home.

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## maya2008 (10 October 2022)

PTS (especially by a competent guy with a gun) is very much here one minute, gone the next. No suffering, no worries, a bucket of feed and a scratch on the head and then gone.  Far better than an uncertain future.  If you loved the horse and were desperate to keep it alive, then I would say ask around and find a space in a field locally - could cost as little as £50 a month plus feed if you do the chores. But if this isn’t your lifelong best friend, pts is kind and dignified and absolutely ok to do.


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## ponynutz (10 October 2022)

rabatsa said:



			You obviously felt the horse needed retirement, otherwise you would not have chosen retirement livery.

The next step is NOT to pass the horse on but to give a peaceful end in a place that it knows.

Selling/giving the mare away is not going to be the kindest thing to do in this economic climate as a lot of those who can afford a "pet" now may not be able to do so in 6 months time.
		
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Just a little bit worried your post makes it seem like the only option is to PTS. Most of us agree it's OP's decision whether we have differences in opinion or not and there's no judgement coming from
us. Sure you didn't mean it and feel free to ignore this if you feel I'm being pedantic but reading this I felt like exploring other options first before PTS would make me a bad owner. I didn't feel that with anyone else's post.


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## Birker2020 (10 October 2022)

SO1 said:



			PTS your is not a lazy cop out. It is probably the hardest and most difficult decision most horse owners have to make. .
		
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I agree, its very hard to come to this decision especially if the horse is relatively young still.


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## Dexter (10 October 2022)

ponynutz said:



			Just a little bit worried your post makes it seem like the only option is to PTS. Most of us agree it's OP's decision whether we have differences in opinion or not and there's no judgement coming from
us. Sure you didn't mean it and feel free to ignore this if you feel I'm being pedantic but reading this I felt like exploring other options first before PTS would make me a bad owner. I didn't feel that with anyone else's post.
		
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I think they would make you a bad owner, albeit with good intentions. I appreciate you are young and havent seen the things a lot of us have but PTS is always the right option in these cases. Passing on a lame horse is condemning it to an uncertain future. It is not life at all costs and I wish people could understand that. A short life well lived is ALWAYS better than a long one that ends badly.


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## SO1 (10 October 2022)

It may well be sadly if she cannot afford to keep the horse.

If you are going to pass on a horse they need to fit for the job they are going to do be that a walk hack or a companion. In this situation where the horse is on a retirement livery and probably living in a herd it is going to be difficult to test if the horse is now going to be ok to do either. 

If the horses leaves the retirement yard and is not suitable for the loaner then it will have to be rehomed or PTS from the loaners place as OP cannot take it back. 

My opinion is if you loan out your horse you have to be in situation to take it back should it not work out, or PTS or rehome from loaner place which may be a difficult situation for the loaner. 

Yes it would be wonderful if the horse could find a permanent loan home and they do exist but one of the appeals for people loaning is that they can return the horse if it doesn't work out. 

If you are going to loan and cannot take the horse back you need a contract with the loaner that says if they cannot continue the loan that the horse will have to be rehomed or PTS from their yard. 

With the blood bank you sign over the horse to them and when it is no longer of use to them they PTS. With embryo transfer I am not sure how that works but I presume that is a loan and they will expect you to take horse back when they no longer need it. I am also not sure if they take maiden mares for that. 



ponynutz said:



			Just a little bit worried your post makes it seem like the only option is to PTS. Most of us agree it's OP's decision whether we have differences in opinion or not and there's no judgement coming from
us. Sure you didn't mean it and feel free to ignore this if you feel I'm being pedantic but reading this I felt like exploring other options first before PTS would make me a bad owner. I didn't feel that with anyone else's post.
		
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## Birker2020 (10 October 2022)

I can understand if the horse is pottering around a field lame.  If it can't get up or down in the stable or paddock.  If it no longer feels it can run around and express joy and interest in its surroundings, or doesn't play over the fence anymore. If it doesn't eat up and loses weight or its coat looks dreadful.  If it is clearly miserable with its head down, no longer expressing an interest in anything around it.  If it has changed character suddenly.

But most of us know how a horse presents that has a good quality of life.  And whilst I agree that 'it is not life at all costs' there are sometimes other options available if the horse doesn't fit the above criteria.   Its certainly not 'a death at all costs' either and people shouldn't be made to feel bad for considering other options.


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## Sealine (10 October 2022)

You've given your horse a lovely year of retirement. Making a decision to PTS is never easy but it's perfectly justified in this situation and far better for both of you than giving her an uncertain future. Horses live in the moment and harsh as it may sound they don't know there is no tomorrow when we make the PTS decision.


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## MagicMelon (10 October 2022)

For me, I have a horse who is just an ornament. He is my retired eventer (through injury) who I feel I owe the world to. I would personally never put an animal to sleep for convenience. Yes I could certainly do without the costs of having to keep him (hes a 16hh TB type so generally am always piling food into him as he's skinny), I lost my job a few months ago so money is tight just now, but then Im sure most others are in the same boat. He's in his 20's but to be honest he still is doing great, I will only ever put him down once theres an actual vet reason to do so or if he's seriously struggling through winters etc. but I dont feel the time is yet by any means. I'll do my best for him as long as he's happy. I hope I find him dead in the field one morning after he's passed away quietly in his sleep so selfishly I then dont have to make the dreaded decision but I know thats unlikely.

I remember hearing that a girl I knew of moved out of her parents house and couldnt take her 3 horses with her. All 3 horses were perfectly rideable still and she'd owned them years, theyd accomplished loads competing wise etc. She seemed to wash her hands of them and her mother had them all shot as she didnt want to look after them. I found that bitterly unfair for the poor horses who had loads left to give, but they couldnt even be bothered to try and find them nice homes, mainly because they had a snobby attitude that nobody else could possibly ride or look after them as well as they had done which is rubbish.

How about asking around and seeing if there is someone out there who wants a horse just to gentle hack?  There ARE people out there who want just that, just nice lead horses for baby horses or to hack out quietely with their kids etc. Seems silly not to even ask around first.

My last horse was a truly lovely girl but she just wasnt well matched to me. I wanted to compete which she did successfully but I just didnt seem to gel with her riding-wise for some reason. I searched for months to find what I thought to be the right home, vetted it myself and then put her on loan to the person. I went to visit frequently to keep an eye on things and she kept me updated all the time. She then agreed to buy her and slowly paid her off in installments. It worked out great, they seem to love her and they only want to hack which is what the horse really enjoyed (but I didnt). There are lovely people out there, you just have to put the effort in to find them.  

OP, ultimately you'll have a tonne of people on here saying PTS. Personally I wouldn't. Its really your choice and doesnt matter what anyone else says.


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## ihatework (10 October 2022)

For me the 2 main options are PTS or keep in retirement. Neither is more right or wrong than the other.

The third option worth exploring, dependant on the mare, would be an ET receipient. This is where large breeding studs loan mares to carry pregnancies. Your mare would need to be large enough, with good repro conformation, sound enough, happy to live naturally in a herd environment and importantly a good nature


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## LaurenBay (10 October 2022)

If the Horse is not needle phobic then I'd consider blood bank, if not then I would PTS.


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## marmalade76 (10 October 2022)

Dru said:



			Gosh, I could have written this only my horse isn't quite at retirement stage yet. I think the worst thing is to sell them on when the risk of mistreatment is so high. Of all the options I've identified for my own situation, selling is the least likely. I could probably sell mine quite easily if I didn't disclose her persistent problem with ulcers but she'd end up in pain and unhappy unless she found another mug willing to throw tens of thousands at her.

I think the poster who said about seeking permission for PTS is spot on, I want someone to tell me that I'd not be a terrible human for killing my horse if it comes to it. I'm not there yet but it's becoming more and more likely as I can not spend thousands treating her again.
		
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It needs to become more accepted, the way the cost of everything is going, there will be a hell of a lot of horses neglected and abandoned otherwise, sounds awful, but the numbers of low value animals needs to be cut down.


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## Backtoblack (10 October 2022)

contact Hopton Rehab and Homing 07989602773.charity number 1173847 They specialise in taking on horses such as yours both to help the horse and the owner. The future of the horse is secured with the animal remaining in the ownership of the charity for life but loaned out to a suitable person either as a riding horse or a companion. They have a facebook page too if you care to take a look.


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## smolmaus (10 October 2022)

marmalade76 said:



			It needs to become more accepted, the way the cost of everything is going, there will be a hell of a lot of horses neglected and abandoned otherwise, sounds awful, but the numbers of low value animals needs to be cut down.
		
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It does sound awful but it is reality. There are only so many genuine "companion" homes out there and many many more horses who people would love to find companion homes for. You can't argue with the balance of those numbers. 

I see some of the emails that come in from people looking the sanctuary to take on or help rehome the horses they can't keep and can't sell and personal opinion only here, this is not the view of the sanctuary, but people need to take responsibility for giving their horses a peaceful end rather than trying to pass it on to someone else. The lovely field in the countryside with their new friends and the sun on their back until they pass peacefully in their sleep either doesn't exist or it's full already of horses who deserve it just as much as yours does and got lucky with a one in a million shot. For most old or unsaleable horses its a fairytale you'll be sold by someone who has no intention of making it reality.


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## cauda equina (10 October 2022)

It always seems a weird paradox - private owners are urged to pts their unrideable horses to secure their futures
But those same owners are often in receipt of begging letters from charities wanting funds to feed other people's cast offs/unrideable horses


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## Backtoblack (10 October 2022)

smolmaus said:



			It does sound awful but it is reality. There are only so many genuine "companion" homes out there and many many more horses who people would love to find companion homes for. You can't argue with the balance of those numbers.

I see some of the emails that come in from people looking the sanctuary to take on or help rehome the horses they can't keep and can't sell and personal opinion only here, this is not the view of the sanctuary, but people need to take responsibility for giving their horses a peaceful end rather than trying to pass it on to someone else. The lovely field in the countryside with their new friends and the sun on their back until they pass peacefully in their sleep either doesn't exist or it's full already of horses who deserve it just as much as yours does and got lucky with a one in a million shot. For most old or unsaleable horses its a fairytale you'll be sold by someone who has no intention of making it reality.
		
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ive recently taken on a 28 year old to give him a good time in the last part of his life. hes cared for ,bought expensive feed and much loved. hes grazing now with the sun on his back enjoying life. Sometimes fairytale endings do happen.


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## Birker2020 (10 October 2022)

Backtoblack said:



			ive recently taken on a 28 year old to give him a good time in the last part of his life. hes cared for ,bought expensive feed and much loved. hes grazing now with the sun on his back enjoying life. Sometimes fairytale endings do happen.
		
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That's really good of you.  Believe me if I had something else to ride or had my own land Lari would be with me forever and I find it incredibly sad that I can't do that for him, but I just can't being on livery.

If I had my own land and could afford it what you are doing is something I would consider.


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## Ali27 (10 October 2022)

smolmaus said:



			It does sound awful but it is reality. There are only so many genuine "companion" homes out there and many many more horses who people would love to find companion homes for. You can't argue with the balance of those numbers.

I see some of the emails that come in from people looking the sanctuary to take on or help rehome the horses they can't keep and can't sell and personal opinion only here, this is not the view of the sanctuary, but people need to take responsibility for giving their horses a peaceful end rather than trying to pass it on to someone else. The lovely field in the countryside with their new friends and the sun on their back until they pass peacefully in their sleep either doesn't exist or it's full already of horses who deserve it just as much as yours does and got lucky with a one in a million shot. For most old or unsaleable horses its a fairytale you'll be sold by someone who has no intention of making it reality.
		
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Our little companion pony got lucky with us! Our old pony was diagnosed with liver failure a few years ago and we were renting a house with 13 acres so desperately needed a companion for my 14.2 ridden mare. She was only 8 when I got her on loan and then I bought her for £100! She is brilliant, happy to be left on her own and so sweet. We moved out of rented property 18 months ago and both had to go on full livery temporarily for a few months. We’ve now bought a 5 acre field and she and my ridden mare who is 20 have a guaranteed happy forever life with me until it’s time for them to go! I’m pretty sure she realises that she got lucky💕


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## Dexter (10 October 2022)

Backtoblack said:



			ive recently taken on a 28 year old to give him a good time in the last part of his life. hes cared for ,bought expensive feed and much loved. hes grazing now with the sun on his back enjoying life. Sometimes fairytale endings do happen.
		
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And for every story like yours there are hundreds more that end in suffering. Its not an odds game I'd be playing with a horses life.


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## Slightlyconfused (10 October 2022)

Daniel_Jack said:



			Thank you.

It's all a bit rubbish and its so frustrating to be in this situation.

This wee mare does not deserve this. She is such a lovely girl despite having a poor start in life with about 6 homes (some good some not) plus a riding school stint in her life.

She's been with me longer than any of her other owners and it's just a shame that things have turned out the way they have.
		
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I had this with my wb mare. 

Before i got her she was a state. Skinny and scars all over. She had ks which for her meant retirement straightaway. She was on off lamr a few years later, painkillers helped a bit but we xrayed and it was her stifles. She was pts the next day, nice and sunny with her friend with her. 
I was not going yo bute her to be in the feild and didnt want her stifle to suddenly go.

When we retired her so many people told me to loan her as a companion or breed from her. I did neither, she had had a few bad homes previous to us, one where she was ear twitch badly so she had her last years where she was safe and happy with her friends. 


So in your case i would pts, where she knows she is safe and where its her home.


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## conniegirl (10 October 2022)

Birker2020 said:



			I can understand if the horse is pottering around a field lame.  If it can't get up or down in the stable or paddock.  If it no longer feels it can run around and express joy and interest in its surroundings, or doesn't play over the fence anymore. If it doesn't eat up and loses weight or its coat looks dreadful.  If it is clearly miserable with its head down, no longer expressing an interest in anything around it.  If it has changed character suddenly.

.
		
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if a horse is any of the above then you are already a bad owner and should have PTS well before it got to that point. Any of the horses above are suffering.

Better a month to early than a moment to late


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## Birker2020 (10 October 2022)

conniegirl said:



			if a horse is any of the above then you are already a bad owner and should have PTS well before it got to that point. Any of the horses above are suffering.
		
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Err that's what I said......


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## cauda equina (10 October 2022)

deleted


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## ycbm (10 October 2022)

Backtoblack said:



			ive recently taken on a 28 year old to give him a good time in the last part of his life. hes cared for ,bought expensive feed and much loved. hes grazing now with the sun on his back enjoying life. Sometimes fairytale endings do happen.
		
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That is lovely of you but at that age how do you know for sure that he is pain free? 
.


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## ycbm (10 October 2022)

If people who mistreat horses came with a big "I mistreat horses" sign on their foreheads the rehoming decision would be easy.  Unfortunately they don't,  they look exactly the same and say exactly the same things, often better things,  as the person who's going to starve a horse or bute it up and sell it on for riding at a big profit.
.


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## smolmaus (10 October 2022)

cauda equina said:



			It always seems a weird paradox - private owners are urged to pts their unrideable horses to secure their futures
But those same owners are often in receipt of begging letters from charities wanting funds to feed other people's cast offs/unrideable horses
		
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Can't really disagree with you. It does seem like a paradox. Lecturing otherwise responsible owners doesn't stop the irresponsible ones who are going to keep abusing, abandoning or neglecting their animals who wouldn't listen to you anyway. I suppose in my mind the rescue/sanctuary system needs to be in place for the extreme cases, not a horse who has had a good life and their owners just don't want to make a final decision but they also can't keep up with their care. 

I wouldn't like to be the one making the decisions about who gets a soft landing and who doesn't, I couldn't handle it.


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## Birker2020 (10 October 2022)

ycbm said:



			That is lovely of you but at that age how do you know for sure that he is pain free?
.
		
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How do you know any horse is totally pain free? Like how do you know 100% yours is? Not singling you out but fair question?


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## Crazy_cat_lady (10 October 2022)

Putting a tin hat on - perhaps rescues would have more space to help with a wider variety of cases if they weren't over run with more than likely inbred coloured cobs from a certain type of "producer" and were instead able to make a decision around them without fear of being slated or branching into "taboo" territory.....

Obviously I know there are some that have gone on to make useful riding ponies but what about those who can't?

Also rescues will be just as impacted by the cost of living crisis maybe more so as they rely on donations which people may be less able to give. so will they be in a position to take in other people's cast offs?

Rescues shouldn't be used to stop people having to make a decision for the horse they are responsible for they need to be freed up for genuine welfare cases


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## ycbm (10 October 2022)

Birker2020 said:



			How do you know any horse is totally pain free? Like how do you know 100% yours is? Not singling you out but fair question?
		
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You can't.  That's one reason why I never retire horses,  I can't be sure they aren't in pain.


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## Birker2020 (10 October 2022)

ycbm said:



			You can't.  That's one reason why I never retire horses,  I can't be sure they aren't in pain.
		
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Blimey.  That's a bit black and white.  So every horse that can't work anymore is pts regardless of how long you've had it for or what its done for you?  Can't you just use your eyes and common sense to determine the key facts instead?

Again, not a personal attack but just curious.


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## ycbm (10 October 2022)

Birker2020 said:



			Blimey.  That's a bit black and white.  So every horse that can't work anymore is pts regardless of how long you've had it for or what its done for you?  Can't you just use your eyes and common sense to determine the key facts instead?

Again, not a personal attack but just curious.
		
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Even X ray eyes won't tell you if a horse is in pain,  nobody can ever be 100% sure of that.  If Lari is happy and looks well when you see him, how do you know he's not just happy to see you and looks completely diffeent when you aren't there? 

Now that I have no land  would not have the horse close to be constantly watching it,  and it would cost thousands of pounds a year to retire and  I can't be sure it's not in pain?  Yes I would PTS at the first sign of bad weather, if not before.  

The horse does not know or care how many more days it could have lived.  I know and care about the constant worry I would have about whether the horse was happy and pain free.  One of my horses was owned by someone else and across the Atlantic and I still worried about him, rightly as it turns out.  

To be honest I think the joys of standing around in a field in the middle of winter are vastly overrated by owners who care too much about their horses to cut short their potential lives. 
.


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## Flame_ (10 October 2022)

PipsqueakXy22 said:



			OP is exploring options hence her post, all everyone else is saying is if she does find herself in the situation that there’s no other sensible option, no one would blame her if she decides to pts.
		
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Oh, absolutely, not aimed at the OP, aimed at people who seem keener on putting down horses than on exploring other possibilities or imagining that that the horse might well have a happy and useful long life if they can relinquish control of it.


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## Rowreach (10 October 2022)

ycbm said:



			Even X ray eyes won't tell you if a horse is in pain,  nobody can ever be 100% sure of that.  If Lari is happy and looks well when you see him, how do you know he's not just happy to see you and looks completely diffeent when you aren't there?

Now that I have no land  would not have the horse close to be constantly watching it,  and it would cost thousands of pounds a year to retire and  I can't be sure it's not in pain?  Yes I would PTS at the first sign of bad weather, if not before. 

The horse does not know or care how many more days it could have lived.  I know and care about the constant worry I would have about whether the horse was happy and pain free.  One of my horses was owned by someone else and across the Atlantic and I still worried about him, rightly as it turns out. 

To be honest I think the joys of standing around in a field in the middle of winter are vastly overrated by owners who care too much about their horses to cut short their potential lives.
.
		
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Absolutely 100% agree with this.


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## Birker2020 (10 October 2022)

ycbm said:



			Even X ray eyes won't tell you if a horse is in pain,  nobody can ever be 100% sure of that.  If Lari is happy and looks well when you see him, how do you know he's not just happy to see you and looks completely diffeent when you aren't there?

Now that I have no land  would not have the horse close to be constantly watching it,  and it would cost thousands of pounds a year to retire and  I can't be sure it's not in pain?  Yes I would PTS at the first sign of bad weather, if not before. 

The horse does not know or care how many more days it could have lived.  I know and care about the constant worry I would have about whether the horse was happy and pain free.  One of my horses was owned by someone else and across the Atlantic and I still worried about him, rightly as it turns out. 

To be honest I think the joys of standing around in a field in the middle of winter are vastly overrated by owners who care too much about their horses to cut short their potential lives.
.
		
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Fair enough. We are all different.

 I know that all day long he's eating in his stable as evidenced by his hay gone, I know he goes down to roll in the stable and field as evidenced by shavings in his tail and mud on his coat. I know he runs around in the paddock as evidenced by the scrape marks on the grass and that he plays as evidenced by the little marks him and his pals get on their faces/ face masks left in adjoining paddocks.

And I guess people are around him all day, staff and other liveries who go at different hours and if he looked uncomfortable or whatever they'd be the first to say.

It just feels so wrong to destroy something that no longer has a use and yet ultimately that is what might still happen and believe me there is a real possibility I might end up regretting it to my dying day.


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## ycbm (10 October 2022)

Birker2020 said:



			destroy something that no longer has a use
		
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That's a horrible expression and doesn't relate in any way to the PTS decisions I make about my horses.  
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## ycbm (10 October 2022)

Birker2020 said:



			And I guess people are around him all day, staff and other liveries who go at different hours and if he looked uncomfortable or whatever they'd be the first to say.
		
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It has been proven that even top riders and top vets are very often unable to identify when a horse is lame. 
.


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## Gallop_Away (10 October 2022)

Reading through threads like these really hamers home how truly awful the equine community can be to one another. I'm actually quite appalled anyone would label having a horse pts as a "cop out", but equally I don't think it's fair making judgements against owners who have chosen to retire their horses and trying to make them second guess themselves.

I said when I bought my horses that they are with me for life. When they become old and can no longer be ridden, they will be retired. If the day comes they are no longer field sound, I will pts at home. My reasons are my own and I do not think I can judge anyone who chooses to do things differently or explores other options. We are equally trying to do right by our horses.

I have always been a firm believer in better a day too early than a day too late, but that is MY decision for MY horses. I can not judge someone else for their decisions when it is not my decision to make or about a horse I own.


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## Birker2020 (10 October 2022)

ycbm said:



			That's a horrible expression and doesn't relate in any way to the PTS decisions I make about my horses.
.
		
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It was a generalisation not against you in particular, I'm sorry wasn't meant to cause offence.  You said you didn't retire your horses.  So if you can't ride anymore I assumed you meant they were pts.


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## Birker2020 (10 October 2022)

ycbm said:



			It has been proven that evenl top riders and top vets are very often unable to identify when a horse is lame.
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So they could quite possibly be riding horses that are lame then?  At least mine won't be ridden anymore.  At least I have the common sense not to 'push through' and at least I can recognise when its game over and time to give up trying.  I do have some qualities it would seem.

Its a personal decision I guess.  Which is what the OP was asking.


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## Flame_ (10 October 2022)

Gallop_Away said:



			I'm actually quite appalled anyone would label having a horse pts as a "cop out".
		
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Aren't you glad that the racing industry has taken to investing time, money, energy and consideration to the potential futures of countless ex-racehorses instead of just pts when that career fails or ends? They don't all go on to have rosettes at the gymkhana lives, long comfortable retirements and natural deaths aged 30 plus, but I see the whole thing as a positive step. Having horses destroyed is OK but, IMO, finding them a use, if at all possible, and letting them stay alive a while longer is preferable.


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## Carlosmum (10 October 2022)

I feel there are some quite harsh comments here towards those ofus  who have made a decision perhaps without investigating causes of lameness further.  
For myself, he had lamimitis, we could have kept him sound, but I suspect he had other issues causing pain as he did not enjoy being ridden.  I couldn't have afforded to throw money at a full lameness/veterinary investigation.  If he had been lovely to ride I would have kept him going on. no or very little turnout, but he was not a happy pony, I certainly wouldn't have wanted to move him on to someone else.  He was my pony and my decision I am sure one or two felt I was a little bit uncaring without trying to resolve his other issues but I spent 10 years battling with a pony who for his own reasons was not happy under saddle.  Hence once the decision was made, I felt nothing but relief that I wouldn't have to ride him again.


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## Gallop_Away (10 October 2022)

Flame_ said:



			Aren't you glad that the racing industry has taken to investing time, money, energy and consideration to the potential futures of countless ex-racehorses instead of just pts when that career fails or ends? They don't all go on to have rosettes at the gymkhana lives, long comfortable retirements and natural deaths aged 30 plus, but I see the whole thing as a positive step. Having horses destroyed is OK but, IMO, finding them a use, if at all possible, and letting them stay alive a while longer is preferable.
		
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I think you've missed my point slightly but OK. Of course if a horse is sound and able to go on and have a further career that is a lovely thing. Equally a quick death that a horse knows nothing of, is also a perfectly acceptable end.
The racing industry has a lot to answer for in terms of how much wastage it produces, and of course I would rather see a young healthy otttb go on to have a ridden career in a private knowledgeable home. Trouble is there are not enough of those homes available.
We are also not discussing young healthy horses being pts here but rather older horses that can for whatever reason no longer be ridden. I know what decision I would make for mine but they are my horses and it would be my decision which will always be made in their best interest. Who am I to judge someone else who decides a different path when I don't know them or their horses?
I also certainly don't think many people make the decision to have a horse pts off-hand and it's certainly not a "cop out".


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## Barton Bounty (10 October 2022)

Flame_ said:



			Aren't you glad that the racing industry has taken to investing time, money, energy and consideration to the potential futures of countless ex-racehorses instead of just pts when that career fails or ends? They don't all go on to have rosettes at the gymkhana lives, long comfortable retirements and natural deaths aged 30 plus, but I see the whole thing as a positive step. Having horses destroyed is OK but, IMO, finding them a use, if at all possible, and letting them stay alive a while longer is preferable.
		
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I for sure am!! I wouldnt have my wonderful boy, or the other wee scrag of a thing that came to me for 600 , windsucks etc but never lame.  
they all deserve a good home, sometimes though I wonder why people that own horses actually have them. I wouldnt give them a rat to look after 😂


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## Dexter (10 October 2022)

Flame_ said:



			Aren't you glad that the racing industry has taken to investing time, money, energy and consideration to the potential futures of countless ex-racehorses instead of just pts when that career fails or ends? They don't all go on to have rosettes at the gymkhana lives, long comfortable retirements and natural deaths aged 30 plus, but I see the whole thing as a positive step. Having horses destroyed is OK but, IMO, finding them a use, if at all possible, and letting them stay alive a while longer is preferable.
		
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Comments like this directly contribute to the welfare issues horses have and allow dodgy dealers to stock up on horses to sell on to the next unsuspecting person, and so the cycle carries on.

It is never ever a bad thing to put an animal to sleep. It is pretty much always a bad thing to rehome a horse to an insecure future. 

How can you justify the suffering some horses have to endure because some horses are sometimes ok? I know I couldnt do the mental gymnastics needed for that. Why is it life at all costs, no matter what the risk, for an animal that has no concept of how long its been alive or "should" have lived?


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## Hackback (10 October 2022)

ycbm said:



			The OP says she developed issues,  not that she was injured,  and if a mare can't stand work at under 12 years old it really shouldn't be bred from, for the sake of anyone who might buy the offspring in future. 
.
		
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I do wonder if that's why so many well bred horses are breaking down at a really young age.


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## oldie48 (10 October 2022)

I'm sitting here with the vet's bill for Rose's euthanasia and disposal. It arrived in the post this morning so I nearly passed by this thread without reading but I am so gad I did as I've found it really helpful to see the opinions of people, I have grown to value, talk about this difficult subject. 
My vet agreed that Rose was never going to be rideable as she had a permanent mechanical lameness, she'd had a couple of times last winter when she needed bute to be comfortable but generally I thought she was painfree otherwise I would have found the decision so much easier. Although she's a nicely bred Hannoverion with good conformation etc, I wouldn't dream of breeding from a horse that potentially would find the extra weight of pregnancy might compromise her comfort. I would not loan out a horse with lameness issues just as I would never take on a companion that was not completely sound. I was very fortunate to have retired her to a yard with a lovely experienced owner and following a difficult discussion I decided to give her the Summer (she was retired a year ago after nearly a year of careful but unsuccessful attempts at rehabbing her) and then to PTS. I've never shirked the tough decisions in my life but with Rose I did to some extent as I stopped visiting her to try to reduce my emotional connection to her and I trusted the yard owner completely, she kindly did all the organisation for me. I'm rather tearful writing this, I know I did the right thing but I found it so helpful to have the support of the yard owner and a couple of very experienced horsey friends who had had to make a similar decision with a much loved horse and I've found it helpful to read the comments on this thread, so thank you.


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## Chianti (10 October 2022)

ycbm said:



			It has been proven that even top riders and top vets are very often unable to identify when a horse is lame.
.
		
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Sorry - but then how do you know that the horses you have in work aren't in pain? I'm in my 60s now and at odd moments I'm in pain- am I for the bullet? There has to be some sort of threshold for horses - if as previous poster says they seem to be enjoying life then they carry on. When they're starting to not enjoy it then you PTS. My first horse got to 27 and enjoyed her working life up until the last few weeks when we battled a mystery illness that was probably leukemia. My second horse was retired at 12 and had 10 years of luxury on retirement livery. As owners we're not psychic we observe our horses and should act accordingly.


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## Barton Bounty (10 October 2022)

oldie48 said:



			I'm sitting here with the vet's bill for Rose's euthanasia and disposal. It arrived in the post this morning so I nearly passed by this thread without reading but I am so gad I did as I've found it really helpful to see the opinions of people, I have grown to value, talk about this difficult subject.
My vet agreed that Rose was never going to be rideable as she had a permanent mechanical lameness, she'd had a couple of times last winter when she needed bute to be comfortable but generally I thought she was painfree otherwise I would have found the decision so much easier. Although she's a nicely bred Hannoverion with good conformation etc, I wouldn't dream of breeding from a horse that potentially would find the extra weight of pregnancy might compromise her comfort. I would not loan out a horse with lameness issues just as I would never take on a companion that was not completely sound. I was very fortunate to have retired her to a yard with a lovely experienced owner and following a difficult discussion I decided to give her the Summer (she was retired a year ago after nearly a year of careful but unsuccessful attempts at rehabbing her) and then to PTS. I've never shirked the tough decisions in my life but with Rose I did to some extent as I stopped visiting her to try to reduce my emotional connection to her and I trusted the yard owner completely, she kindly did all the organisation for me. I'm rather tearful writing this, I know I did the right thing but I found it so helpful to have the support of the yard owner and a couple of very experienced horsey friends who had had to make a similar decision with a much loved horse and I've found it helpful to read the comments on this thread, so thank you.
		
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But you did everything you could! You exhausted every avenue before making that decision, ♥️im sorry about Rosie , hugs ♥️


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## Red-1 (10 October 2022)

My stance is to never disagree with anyone who has made the decision to PTS. It is such a personal thing and no 2 circumstances are the same.

I find it confusing where some people are saying that to PTS is wrong in some circumstances, yet they have thought of the same themselves in only slightly different circumstances. 

It is one decision I take without asking for advice because, when push comes to shove, only what I think matters as I am the one who has to be at peace with my decision. 

I am disappointed with some of the posts. 

OP, I agree with whatever you decide.


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## SEL (10 October 2022)

@oldie48 I didn't realise you'd had to say goodbye to Rose and I'm very sorry. It's a tough, tough call every time xx


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## j1ffy (10 October 2022)

oldie48 said:



			I'm sitting here with the vet's bill for Rose's euthanasia and disposal. It arrived in the post this morning so I nearly passed by this thread without reading but I am so gad I did as I've found it really helpful to see the opinions of people, I have grown to value, talk about this difficult subject.
My vet agreed that Rose was never going to be rideable as she had a permanent mechanical lameness, she'd had a couple of times last winter when she needed bute to be comfortable but generally I thought she was painfree otherwise I would have found the decision so much easier. Although she's a nicely bred Hannoverion with good conformation etc, I wouldn't dream of breeding from a horse that potentially would find the extra weight of pregnancy might compromise her comfort. I would not loan out a horse with lameness issues just as I would never take on a companion that was not completely sound. I was very fortunate to have retired her to a yard with a lovely experienced owner and following a difficult discussion I decided to give her the Summer (she was retired a year ago after nearly a year of careful but unsuccessful attempts at rehabbing her) and then to PTS. I've never shirked the tough decisions in my life but with Rose I did to some extent as I stopped visiting her to try to reduce my emotional connection to her and I trusted the yard owner completely, she kindly did all the organisation for me. I'm rather tearful writing this, I know I did the right thing but I found it so helpful to have the support of the yard owner and a couple of very experienced horsey friends who had had to make a similar decision with a much loved horse and I've found it helpful to read the comments on this thread, so thank you.
		
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Hugs Oldie48 - she was a beautiful mare and very lucky to have such a responsible owner. RIP Rose x


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## Red-1 (10 October 2022)

oldie48 said:



			I'm sitting here with the vet's bill for Rose's euthanasia and disposal. It arrived in the post this morning so I nearly passed by this thread without reading but I am so gad I did as I've found it really helpful to see the opinions of people, I have grown to value, talk about this difficult subject.
My vet agreed that Rose was never going to be rideable as she had a permanent mechanical lameness, she'd had a couple of times last winter when she needed bute to be comfortable but generally I thought she was painfree otherwise I would have found the decision so much easier. Although she's a nicely bred Hannoverion with good conformation etc, I wouldn't dream of breeding from a horse that potentially would find the extra weight of pregnancy might compromise her comfort. I would not loan out a horse with lameness issues just as I would never take on a companion that was not completely sound. I was very fortunate to have retired her to a yard with a lovely experienced owner and following a difficult discussion I decided to give her the Summer (she was retired a year ago after nearly a year of careful but unsuccessful attempts at rehabbing her) and then to PTS. I've never shirked the tough decisions in my life but with Rose I did to some extent as I stopped visiting her to try to reduce my emotional connection to her and I trusted the yard owner completely, she kindly did all the organisation for me. I'm rather tearful writing this, I know I did the right thing but I found it so helpful to have the support of the yard owner and a couple of very experienced horsey friends who had had to make a similar decision with a much loved horse and I've found it helpful to read the comments on this thread, so thank you.
		
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I am sorry to hear this, Rose was a beautiful mare.


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## Nasicus (10 October 2022)

Hackback said:



			I do wonder if that's why so many well bred horses are breaking down at a really young age.
		
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I think it's because 'well bred' doesn't always mean the horse has been bred from parents where conformation, long term soundness, and general compatibility of the two parents have been considered. Sometimes 'well bred' just means it has certain names in a pedigree. The parents being relative unknowns/unproven/a broken broodmare doesn't matter, it's got xxx lines in there so it must be good!


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## The Fuzzy Furry (10 October 2022)

Red-1 said:



			It is one decision I take without asking for advice because, when push comes to shove, only what I think matters as I am the one who has to be at peace with my decision.
		
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Completely agree.

Oldie - xx


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## ycbm (10 October 2022)

Chianti said:



			Sorry - but then how do you know that the horses you have in work aren't in pain?
		
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I don't.  I have what I believe is a perfectly sound horse going to hospital tomorrow so that experts with big machines can either reassure me or find what there may be to find. 
.


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## ycbm (10 October 2022)

oldie48 said:



			I'm sitting here with the vet's bill for Rose's euthanasia and disposal. It arrived in the post this morning so I nearly passed by this thread without reading but I am so gad I did as I've found it really helpful to see the opinions of people, I have grown to value, talk about this difficult subject.
My vet agreed that Rose was never going to be rideable as she had a permanent mechanical lameness, she'd had a couple of times last winter when she needed bute to be comfortable but generally I thought she was painfree otherwise I would have found the decision so much easier. Although she's a nicely bred Hannoverion with good conformation etc, I wouldn't dream of breeding from a horse that potentially would find the extra weight of pregnancy might compromise her comfort. I would not loan out a horse with lameness issues just as I would never take on a companion that was not completely sound. I was very fortunate to have retired her to a yard with a lovely experienced owner and following a difficult discussion I decided to give her the Summer (she was retired a year ago after nearly a year of careful but unsuccessful attempts at rehabbing her) and then to PTS. I've never shirked the tough decisions in my life but with Rose I did to some extent as I stopped visiting her to try to reduce my emotional connection to her and I trusted the yard owner completely, she kindly did all the organisation for me. I'm rather tearful writing this, I know I did the right thing but I found it so helpful to have the support of the yard owner and a couple of very experienced horsey friends who had had to make a similar decision with a much loved horse and I've found it helpful to read the comments on this thread, so thank you.
		
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So sorry,  Oldie, you made a brave decision for her, take care of yourself. 
.


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## ycbm (10 October 2022)

Hackback said:



			I do wonder if that's why so many well bred horses are breaking down at a really young age.
		
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That may well be the case.  I have known of at least 3 local breeders who have bred using good stallions on donated mares who were unable to stand up to work at a young age and the owner did not want to PTS.  Offspring sold as weanlings long before anyone would know if they were going to stay sound.  I know of a small high class WB stud breeding from a mare who was arthritic in the hocks and couldn't be got right and retired at an early age.  This years foal will have a hefty price tag if it's sold.  
.


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## L&M (10 October 2022)

Pts.....


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## Flame_ (10 October 2022)

Dexter said:



			Comments like this directly contribute to the welfare issues horses have and allow dodgy dealers to stock up on horses to sell on to the next unsuspecting person, and so the cycle carries on.

It is never ever a bad thing to put an animal to sleep. It is pretty much always a bad thing to rehome a horse to an insecure future.

How can you justify the suffering some horses have to endure because some horses are sometimes ok? I know I couldnt do the mental gymnastics needed for that. Why is it life at all costs, no matter what the risk, for an animal that has no concept of how long its been alive or "should" have lived?
		
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I never said anything about life at all costs, I applaud the OP for seeking potential happy outcomes for her horse given the unfortunate position she's in. On the elaborated post she has confirmed few options are actually plausible for this horse. I can justify the suffering some horses have to endure because for me (or anyone who doesn't breed their own) to have horses, someone else had to trust me and let them go. They, thankfully, didn't tell themselves the horses would be better off dead than taking the chance of being my horses. I am very glad that somebody was willing to sell me my ex-rescue, "worthless" companion pony who is very useful to me and my riding horse, who isn't being starved or abused and who I think is living his best life.


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## honetpot (10 October 2022)

One of my ponies was sold as a just backed three year old, to a semi pro home, for a decent amount of money. Six years later I saw him of FB, he had been loaned as a companion, and was being sold after two weeks as a ridden pony. In the two week he had two homes, and his owner was furious. Fortunately we got him home and he had four years with me as a grass mower, so all ended well. 
  I did buy older brood mares, because they were cheap, and I would never sell them on. What about breeding loan although it's late in the season? I had a free return covering that I couldn't use because I couldn't find a brood mare I could afford.
  If you PTS, it will hurt, but you will not worry about her.


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## Merrymoles (10 October 2022)

Just taking a step back the current thread, I'd ask everyone to think about the owner's state of mind (not the OP in this case) in general.

I have had friends with horses with long term medical issues. Some of them did not have the financial wherewithal to continue with endless vet investigations, some of them couldn't provide the necessary lifestyle for that particular horse, but with others they had just reached the end of their mental strength to deal with the endless worrying and "what if"ing. In a number of those cases, the owners decided to PTS and on more than one occasion, I was the person they chose to be with their horse while it happened.

I have never disagreed with their decisions. With very few exceptions, if someone is even considering PTS they have thought long and hard about it, had sleepless nights thinking about what else they could do and are dreading it happening. But I have also known at least one person who only stayed sane because they made "that" call.

We all have different boundaries that we set for ourselves. I have lost two of my own horses to colic but, no, I still would not put my current horse or any future one through colic surgery. Deciding the future for our horses is a very individual thing and the OP needs to make up her own mind. I'm with her all the way.


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## throwawayaccount (10 October 2022)

i've not read all the replies but hope you're doing OK, OP. never a nice thing to think about.

its lovely you've sent her to be a lawnmower. but if you aren't financially able to keep doing this, please don't feel any guilt; there are worse things than PTS.

my mare is essentially a retired lawnmower on DIY- she's 11, i love her very much but she costs me a fortune in ongoing bills and i would immensely struggle if i had a young family like you say you have.

i don't know if anyone has suggested breeding, but if so, i wouldn't recommend going ahead with that plan. in my opinion,  there are enough unwanted horses - nevermind breeding a lame horse just for the sake of it- i know a lot of people like to give them a job while they're doing nothing but looking pretty.


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## Carlosmum (10 October 2022)

Merrymoles said:



			We all have different boundaries that we set for ourselves. I have lost two of my own horses to colic but, no, I still would not put my current horse or any future one through colic surgery. Deciding the future for our horses is a very individual thing and the OP needs to make up her own mind. I'm with her all the way.
		
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This, I lost my first one following colic surgery, I have sworn never again.


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## Dru (10 October 2022)

Merrymoles, you are so right. I can afford to keep my horse as a field ornament if needs be but at 11 she could live another 20 years at a conservative cost of £72k if I moved her to a retirement yard. I've already spend about £30k on vet bills over and above what insurance has covered on various ailments. There has to come a point when enough is enough. Whilst I can see myself giving her a few years in retirement I can't justify spending that money indefinitely when I have other commitments. Had she been sellable I would be selling her because of those committments (kids going to uni).


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## cat lover (10 October 2022)

Horses are really expensive animals, and hard to take care of, i can see why you have a hard time selling it, but my advice its to sell it to a loving person, preferably that you know, maybe try to loan it? Then maybe others would be considering it more ♥️


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## conniegirl (10 October 2022)

cat lover said:



			Horses are really expensive animals, and hard to take care of, i can see why you have a hard time selling it, but my advice its to sell it to a loving person, preferably that you know, maybe try to loan it? Then maybe others would be considering it more ♥️
		
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Don’t do this, perfect way for a horse to start the downward spiral


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## Amymay (10 October 2022)

Carlosmum said:



			I feel there are some quite harsh comments here towards those ofus  who have made a decision perhaps without investigating causes of lameness further.
		
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Actually, I think it’s the other way around. There seems to be much more of an undercurrent of criticism towards those who have chosen to give a horse a caring life of retirement.


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## Amymay (10 October 2022)

cat lover said:



			Horses are really expensive animals, and hard to take care of, i can see why you have a hard time selling it, but my advice its to sell it to a loving person, preferably that you know, maybe try to loan it? Then maybe others would be considering it more ♥️
		
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Just, no.


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## Amymay (10 October 2022)

@oldie48 I’m so sorry 💔💕


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## Cortez (10 October 2022)

Amymay said:



			Actually, I think it’s the other way around. There seems to be much more of an undercurrent of criticism towards those who have chosen to give a horse a caring life of retirement.
		
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I don't see that at all, and I have retired 95% of my horses.


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## ycbm (10 October 2022)

Amymay said:



			Actually, I think it’s the other way around. There seems to be much more of an undercurrent of criticism towards those who have chosen to give a horse a caring life of retirement.
		
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Nothing that's been written on this thread even compares with a previous similar thread where those who chose not to retire their horses were described by another poster as morally bankrupt.
.


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## Crazy_cat_lady (10 October 2022)

ycbm said:



			Nothing that's been written on this thread even compares with a previous similar thread where those who chose not to retire their horses were described by another poster as morally bankrupt.
.
		
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I got called a murderer by another livery as I left the yard after having my 24 year old Cushing's horse PTS as I could no longer afford him


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## Amymay (10 October 2022)

Crazy_cat_lady said:



			I got called a murderer by another livery as I left the yard after having my 24 year old Cushing's horse PTS as I could no longer afford him
		
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I was called a murdering bitch (via an anonymous note left in my food chest) by a fellow livery.  How vile can people be?


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## Crazy_cat_lady (10 October 2022)

Amymay said:



			I was called a murdering bitch (via an anonymous note left in my food chest) by a fellow livery.  How vile can people be?
		
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It's absolutely unbelievable isn't it, so glad I'm out of the horse world


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## Rowreach (10 October 2022)

Someone on here has already intimated that those of us who choose to pts shouldn't be allowed to own horses.


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## Barton Bounty (10 October 2022)

Amymay said:



			I was called a murdering bitch (via an anonymous note left in my food chest) by a fellow livery.  How vile can people be?
		
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Thats terrible! Even someone that doesnt agree with your decision should never say something so
Vile! Thats awful


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## Cragrat (10 October 2022)

Crazy_cat_lady said:



			I got called a murderer by another livery as I left the yard after having my 24 year old Cushing's horse PTS as I could no longer afford him
		
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Amymay said:



			I was called a murdering bitch (via an anonymous note left in my food chest) by a fellow livery.  How vile can people be?
		
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People like this are totally lacking in empathy.  IF, only if, you have the funds/space/time/ etc to absolutely commit to paying for the horse for the rest of its life AND you have found some magical way to guarantee it will be pain free, then you should be offering to help, not making hypocitical, short sighted and nasty comments.


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## Goldenstar (10 October 2022)

You know you have to trust yourself you gather the evidence and then you decide what you are going to do.
If you retire your horse then make a good job of it too many retired horses lead lives of quiet suffering .
I have one retired horse he’s not fully sound if he has a mad day galloping about he sometimes lame the next and I have to help him out with some bute .
He probably will need bute everyday as we get the harder weather  he had to have al his lower front teeth removed this summer I almost called it a day then but £2300 later he’s doing fine .
It would not have been wrong to PTS at that point and yes I have space and grass so that makes the decision easier .£2300 is a lot of money and people should not feel pressured by others to take choices that are wrong for them .


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## SO1 (11 October 2022)

Sadly we cannot predict the future. When you purchase a horse you do not know how long it will be rideable for and you also cannot predict what your circumstances will be. 

Nobody knew that we would have an energy crisis and that inflation would go so high and the costs not just of horse keeping would becomes expensive but for many even keeping themselves and their family going would be a struggle. 

Some people will no longer be able to afford to keep their horses and also also support themselves and their families. If the horse is not rideable or can only do very light work due to a health condition then it will be harder to rehome. Loaning has risks associated as the horse can easily be sent back and then the owner is back in the difficult financial situation again. 

It is very difficult if you have kids and asking them to make sacrifices in order for you to keep your horse. In some cases it may be the difference between being able to pay the mortgage/rent and energy bills or not being able to pay and potentially loosing your house. 

The OP has made it clear that the horse is very unlikely to be easy to sell due to it only being able to be ridden in walk and it also has sweet itch. If you want a non ridden companion you can get them free from charities so why would someone buy one? 

Loaning would not be an option as she is worried it might get sent back should loaners circumstances change or it turn out to be unsuitable and she cannot take it back. 

It is not suitable as a broodmare due to conformation. 

Bloodbank might be an option but would they manage the sweet itch? 

Embryo transfer as a surragate might be an option but would the extra weight of carrying a foal make her lame. 

There are some situations where a really caring horse owner may get in dire financial difficulty or want to let the horse go to prevent this situation. People should not be judgemental if the owner decides to pts a horse with an underlying health condition that does not have a good chance of finding a suitable permanent home.

It is very easy for people who have their own land or no family commitments to pass judgement on those who are not lucky enough to be in the same situation facing difficult decisions.


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## Birker2020 (11 October 2022)

Merrymoles said:



			Just taking a step back the current thread, I'd ask everyone to think about the owner's state of mind (not the OP in this case) in general.

I have had friends with horses with long term medical issues. Some of them did not have the financial wherewithal to continue with endless vet investigations, some of them couldn't provide the necessary lifestyle for that particular horse, but with others they had just reached the end of their mental strength to deal with the endless worrying and "what if"ing. In a number of those cases, the owners decided to PTS and on more than one occasion, I was the person they chose to be with their horse while it happened.

I have never disagreed with their decisions. With very few exceptions, if someone is even considering PTS they have thought long and hard about it, had sleepless nights thinking about what else they could do and are dreading it happening. But I have also known at least one person who only stayed sane because they made "that" call.

We all have different boundaries that we set for ourselves. I have lost two of my own horses to colic but, no, I still would not put my current horse or any future one through colic surgery. Deciding the future for our horses is a very individual thing and the OP needs to make up her own mind. I'm with her all the way.
		
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I couldn't have put this better myself. Thank you for a bit of clarity.


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## Birker2020 (11 October 2022)

Crazy_cat_lady said:



			I got called a murderer by another livery as I left the yard after having my 24 year old Cushing's horse PTS as I could no longer afford him
		
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That is despicable that you got called that.  I am very sorry that must have hurt.


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## Dru (11 October 2022)

That judging is one of the things putting me off PTS from the yard. I'd rather take her to the vet hospital for it to be done and tell them I'd retired her!


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## Birker2020 (11 October 2022)

Dru said:



			That judging is one of the things putting me off PTS from the yard. I'd rather take her to the vet hospital for it to be done and tell them I'd retired her!
		
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I know.  I feel that some people think I should just ride Lari through his issues and that the vets are just finding things and telling me what I want to hear because they have to find something because I'm paying them money.  Rather than the horse is actually hurting because it was ridden and couldn't cope. 

Perhaps if I was five stone lighter, and had nerves of steel and was that kind of person I would do so but I will not because sooner or later he will break and its not fair, its not an equal partnership if he is being bullied into it.  And of course, if I am going to getting injured again I'd rather risk it doing something that I love like SJ on a pain free horse whilst having fun.

The OP has to make her own mind up as like I say, no one really knows her day to day circumstances and no one knows her horse like she does and she and her vet are best placed to make the decision.


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## Polos Mum (11 October 2022)

Amymay said:



			I was called a murdering bitch (via an anonymous note left in my food chest) by a fellow livery.  How vile can people be?
		
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I do wonder also whether people who think like this have ever actually witnessed suffering.  When my friend was dying of breast cancer I would happily have shot her rather than witness the suffering she went through. She became too ill to travel overseas to get her wish very quickly which was tragic. 

there is no cruelty in PTS - dragging out a painful existence to put quantity over life vs. quality is much worse (IMHO)

Owners with really lame / sick animals just waiting for them to be really really lame so they can justify PTS is madness - 

But I am a firm believer in better a month too soon than a day too late.  I didn't take my own advice with a much loved Labrador (I do realise it's really hard) which was cruel of me and something I have to live with


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## Birker2020 (11 October 2022)

Polos Mum said:



			I do wonder also whether people who think like this have ever actually witnessed suffering.  When my friend was dying of breast cancer I would happily have shot her rather than witness the suffering she went through. She became too ill to travel overseas to get her wish very quickly which was tragic.

there is no cruelty in PTS - dragging out a painful existence to put quantity over life vs. quality is much worse (IMHO)

Owners with really lame / sick animals just waiting for them to be really really lame so they can justify PTS is madness -

But I am a firm believer in better a month too soon than a day too late.  I didn't take my own advice with a much loved Labrador (I do realise it's really hard) which was cruel of me and something I have to live with
		
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This is partly why letting Bailey go was much easier for me although I'm sure some would say its a bizarre comparison.  But seeing my Dad struggling with prostrate cancer that then metastised into bone cancer I would have done anything to have relieved my Dad's suffering.  Bailey went in the wind, quickly, quietly with much dignity, whereas my Dad struggled in pain for weeks.


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## Polos Mum (11 October 2022)

Birker2020 said:



			This is partly why letting Bailey go was much easier for me although I'm sure some would say its a bizarre comparison.  But seeing my Dad struggling with prostrate cancer that then metastised into bone cancer I would have done anything to have relieved my Dad's suffering.  Bailey went in the wind, my Dad struggled in pain for weeks.
		
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I'm sorry to hear that - I know it's complicated, but it seems strange that we are able to "do the right thing" for animals


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## Goldenstar (11 October 2022)

Polos Mum said:



			I do wonder also whether people who think like this have ever actually witnessed suffering.  When my friend was dying of breast cancer I would happily have shot her rather than witness the suffering she went through. She became too ill to travel overseas to get her wish very quickly which was tragic. 

there is no cruelty in PTS - dragging out a painful existence to put quantity over life vs. quality is much worse (IMHO)

Owners with really lame / sick animals just waiting for them to be really really lame so they can justify PTS is madness - 

But I am a firm believer in better a month too soon than a day too late.  I didn't take my own advice with a much loved Labrador (I do realise it's really hard) which was cruel of me and something I have to live with
		
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And with hindsight I kept my mums Lurcher to long ,people are fallible nothing drastic happened with the dog and I knew my parents always did it too late imo and they would not have approved even when I did do it .


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## ponynutz (11 October 2022)

Cortez said:



			I don't see that at all, and I have retired 95% of my horses.
		
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(This isn't really aimed at you Cortez just everyone but ur post was a nice thing to bounce off for me).

I really do. Most are very open about expressing why they made a PTS decision but acknowleding it's OP's choice. Some aren't accepting other's opinions. Ditto the other way around.

I think if we want to have an argument about what's righht or wrong there needs to be another thread (it'd be an interesting one). But this is OP's very difficult choice. the majority are giving no judgment but it's heading towards a debate which I can only imagine will upset OP further.

(Not aimed at everyone either).


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## Birker2020 (11 October 2022)

ponynutz said:



			(This isn't really aimed at you Cortez just everyone but ur post was a nice thing to bounce off for me).

I really do. Most are very open about expressing why they made a PTS decision but acknowleding it's OP's choice. Some aren't accepting other's opinions. Ditto the other way around.

I think if we want to have an argument about what's righht or wrong there needs to be another thread (it'd be an interesting one). But this is OP's very difficult choice. the majority are giving no judgment but it's heading towards a debate which I can only imagine will upset OP further.

(Not aimed at everyone either).
		
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I agree.  And like I said to Cortez before its easier to take the decision to retire if you have the land and the means to keep the 95% of your horses.  Most people paying between £200 - £500 a month on livery cannot afford to keep a horse in retirement and have another to ride.

I was adamant for a time that I was going to retire Lari and go without a horse to ride but I just can't do it. I owe it to myself to do what is right for me as much as what is right for my horse and that goes with everyone having to make a tough decision.


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## Toby_Zaphod (11 October 2022)

I haven't read all the posts but as I see it you've  options. Option 1 is to try & find someone who wants a companion for their horse, as you say she's field sound \& hopefully she'll be happy dong what horses do, be with another horse & put her head down & eat. Then Option 2 PTS, regretfully but it's about the only option which would be left.


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## Gallop_Away (11 October 2022)

Another here who would never put a horse through colic surgery. Personal choice. Would I judge someone who did however? Absolutely not.

We all our own boundaries as another poster has pointed out. It is very sad that so many have been judged for a decision that is so difficult and personal on both sides of the coin. Whether you pts or retire, we are all trying to do right by our horses.


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## babymare (11 October 2022)

Amymay said:



			I was called a murdering bitch (via an anonymous note left in my food chest) by a fellow livery.  How vile can people be?
		
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I was called similar on FB by fellow livery. Fortunately those who knew me supported me and defended my decision but oh my it upset me. BTW I hadn’t posted. They posted with a lengthy post  tagging me in for all to see 😔


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## marmalade76 (11 October 2022)

Crazy_cat_lady said:



			Putting a tin hat on - perhaps rescues would have more space to help with a wider variety of cases if they weren't over run with more than likely inbred coloured cobs from a certain type of "producer" and were instead able to make a decision around them without fear of being slated or branching into "taboo" territory.....

Obviously I know there are some that have gone on to make useful riding ponies but what about those who can't?

Also rescues will be just as impacted by the cost of living crisis maybe more so as they rely on donations which people may be less able to give. so will they be in a position to take in other people's cast offs?

Rescues shouldn't be used to stop people having to make a decision for the horse they are responsible for they need to be freed up for genuine welfare cases
		
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Agreed. There's a "resuce" pony that has been in the hands of two friends of mine (I typed "rescue" because she was "rescued" from going for zoo meat, this is not rescuing IMO). She's a Dartmoor Hill Pony, is club footed, pigeon toed and has EMS. Friend wants to return her to the charity because she's not sound enough to be a LR pony for her small son but the charity are seriously dragging their feet. Pony is not an oldie either, she has many years of unsoundness and restricted turn out to look forward to.

I was looking for a rideable companion last year (if I'm going to have to pick up it's poo, it may as well be useful, even if only for a wander round the lanes) but all of the local centres only had unridden animals available. There are only so many homes for these animals and with the costs of keeping them rising like mad, these homes are going to become fewer still.


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## SO1 (11 October 2022)

I read today that a 200k mortgage will cost another 5k a year compared to last December. That combined with an increase in energy bills may limit what is affordable for some with umsaleable horses. They may have to make difficult decisions through no fault of their own with advice from their vets about potential options. It is not their fault if they have to PTS a horse for finacial reasons that they cannot secure a good alternative home for.


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## Errin Paddywack (11 October 2022)

We are lucky enough to have our own land and my sheep maintain it and pay for hay etc.  I am sure many would have criticised me for putting my boy down when his half brother went because he could have been mended, had pastern dermatitis which was getting worse despite treatment and I suspect might have been cellulitis.  He had other problems but only minor but the main factor in putting down a lovely fat glossy horse was that once his brother was gone he would have been on his own again.  His brother had cancer of the penis.  As an ex stallion who could be very dominant I wasn't prepared to put him with our two smaller pony mares and nor was I about to go out and try and find a suitable gelding to be a companion to a field ornament.  I felt bad about it and missed him terribly to start with but I knew it was the right thing to do.  Only my sister and I had any input in our decision to let the boys go so no adverse comments.


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## cauda equina (11 October 2022)

That's another great advantage of keeping them at home - you only have to square your decision with your own conscience, not justify it to all the yard know-alls


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## rabatsa (11 October 2022)

Not the OP.

I can foresee a time when people who have scrimped and saved to keep their horse in retirement suddenly find that not only can they not afford the retirement, having left it so long they can no longer afford to have the horse pts.  These are the horses that are really going to suffer.

Even moreso if they are adamant that a vet is to do the deed and not the cheaper knackerman.


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## marmalade76 (11 October 2022)

rabatsa said:



			Not the OP.

I can foresee a time when people who have scrimped and saved to keep their horse in retirement suddenly find that not only can they not afford the retirement, having left it so long they can no longer afford to have the horse pts.  These are the horses that are really going to suffer.

Even moreso if they are adamant that a vet is to do the deed and not the cheaper knackerman.
		
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Yep, having a horse PTS is not cheap, the cheap option is trying to pass the responsibility to someone else.


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## maya2008 (11 October 2022)

It should probably be said on this thread, that the cost of vet pts and disposal can be £700 plus (I was quoted £300 just for the drugs). The cost of the local knackerman (who we found via end of life service from I think BHS website) is less than half of that. We have used both - last vet pts wasn’t great (she was upset which upset the pony, which meant pony fought the sedation…and so on). Knackerman was kind, professional and we would now choose this method over vet every time.


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## Orangehorse (11 October 2022)

Just talking casually with people, I think many are wondering what to do with their old horses that are still well enough turned out in the field, but not able to be ridden.  With Danilon having doubled in price and as we know, everything else got so expensive, it is a hard, hard decision for many this autumn.


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## Birker2020 (11 October 2022)

Orangehorse said:



			Just talking casually with people, I think many are wondering what to do with their old horses that are still well enough turned out in the field, but not able to be ridden.  With Danilon having doubled in price and as we know, everything else got so expensive, it is a hard, hard decision for many this autumn.
		
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Has it doubled? Blimey.  Its all very sad that people have to choose their horse over finances but that's the grim reality for some many, heating the home and putting meals on the table are essential.  Sadly horses are a luxury item these days.  Very much a privilege and a luxury. 

Maybe this means that the knackerman will be in greater demand as pts is so expensive or that vets will reduce their fees for lethal injection although I can't see that being a viable option.


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## YorksG (11 October 2022)

The other point, which needs to be given serious consideration, is that people are selling riding horses, because they can't afford to keep them. There will be no market for unridable horses, so pts is going to be the only viable option


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## ponynutz (11 October 2022)

YorksG said:



			The other point, which needs to be given serious consideration, is that people are selling riding horses, because they can't afford to keep them. There will be no market for unridable horses, so pts is going to be the only viable option
		
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We bought a light hack as more of a pet for my dad who wanted something to potter about on and to provide company for mine... this just isn't true.

Edited to say I wrote this in a rush and so came across ruder than I meant it.


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## Amymay (11 October 2022)

Just came up on fb


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## YorksG (11 October 2022)

ponynutz said:



			We bought a light hack as more of a pet for my dad who wanted something to potter about on and to provide company for mine... this just isn't true.

Edited to say I wrote this in a rush and so came across ruder than I meant it.
		
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That is one example, out of many, and is rideable, so does not fit the situation, at all.


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## ester (11 October 2022)

I do think it’s different if it’s just you, or if you have family. If it’s just you not being able to do things as you’re prioritising funds for a retiree that’s one thing, if it means a family missing out/struggling as a result that feels different to me.


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## ponynutz (11 October 2022)

YorksG said:



			That is one example, out of many, and is rideable, so does not fit the situation, at all.
		
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*"She could probably do very light hacking and schooling in walk"*

^ OP's original post.


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## Birker2020 (11 October 2022)

ponynutz said:



*"She could probably do very light hacking and schooling in walk"*

^ OP's original post.
		
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Thing is that might be a fair assumption and someone buys horse with the idea that they can do light hacking or schooling in walk.  After a while that might turn out to be moderate hacking and a bit of trotting in the school.  Sooner or later it would turn into more often than not hacking and schooling and why not just pop the odd fence?

You can't 'make' people do what you say just because you tell them not to do something and for me having peace of mind that my horse wasn't being pushed would be more important than trying to find it another home.  And I don't mean that to be unkind to the OP because I'm in exactly the same position and I know how very hard such a decision is.


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## scats (11 October 2022)

I have retired horses at a young age and let them live a carefree existence with me until their issues became too much, but I had the resources to do so.  Those were also horses who were no real bother to have around and fitted in nicely with my daily routine.  But I totally understand not everyone has that and also that some horses don’t make it very easy to offer them life at home retired, as in the case of the one I talked about earlier.

A little warning about companion homes.  I once sold a section A as a companion.  There was nothing wrong with him, but he was 15 and unbroken and we had got him as a companion for a lame horse, but when horse returned to the livery yard, companion was unhappy being stabled.  I decided to find him a home where he could be a companion again and live out.  Sold him to what seemed like a nice home- lad and his mum wanted a companion for a little mare after she lost her field mate.
About 6 months later I got a phone call from a woman who had found my name in the pony’s passport.  She had been sold the pony 2 months after he left mine, as a child’s riding pony.  Pony had reared up and over backwards with her toddler.  I felt sick.  I explained the pony was 15, was unbroken and I sold it as a companion.  Lady had been spun a huge web of lies by the people I sold him to.  The age in passport had been changed, lads mum told her that the pony was lads childhood pony and done all PC activities with him and was safe as houses.  All a complete and utter lie.
Fortunately he landed on his feet as the lady had a smallholding and kept the pony as a pet and we kept in touch all these years. He died earlier this year aged 30.  I remain traumatised and wracked with guilt over it and nothing will ever leave my yard as a companion ever again.


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## Flame_ (11 October 2022)

scats said:



			A little warning about companion homes.  I once sold a section A as a companion.  There was nothing wrong with him, but he was 15 and unbroken and we had got him as a companion for a lame horse, but when horse returned to the livery yard, companion was unhappy being stabled.  I decided to find him a home where he could be a companion again and live out.  Sold him to what seemed like a nice home- lad and his mum wanted a companion for a little mare after she lost her field mate.
About 6 months later I got a phone call from a woman who had found my name in the pony’s passport.  She had been sold the pony 2 months after he left mine, as a child’s riding pony.  Pony had reared up and over backwards with her toddler.  I felt sick.  I explained the pony was 15, was unbroken and I sold it as a companion.  Lady had been spun a huge web of lies by the people I sold him to.  The age in passport had been changed, lads mum told her that the pony was lads childhood pony and done all PC activities with him and was safe as houses.  All a complete and utter lie.
Fortunately he landed on his feet as the lady had a smallholding and kept the pony as a pet and we kept in touch all these years. He died earlier this year aged 30.  I remain traumatised and wracked with guilt over it and nothing will ever leave my yard as a companion ever again.
		
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Whilst I do understand how people arrive at this mindset, companions are sometimes urgently sought after and important, and if everyone were too afraid to let horses be companions a lot of us finding ourselves with lone horses would be in trouble and a lot of potentially good companions would miss out on a happy long life.

I think the type of horse in the situation has to come into it as well, although your post kind of contradicts where I stand on this. Good companions are generally ponies. Low-maintenance, cheap to feed, quick and low-effort to muck out without significant temperament or health issues. One of these has a good chance of being sought after and a safe long term home IMO, and little chance of being sold on again because little money is likely to be made out of a small pony. A big, strapping warmblood is more likely to really be some crook's money making opportunity than anybody's pet companion.


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## ycbm (11 October 2022)

Flame_ said:



			a lot of potentially good companions would miss out on a happy long life.
		
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I think with the number of horses there are around to foster from charities,  the only thing that changes if one horse is kept alive is that a different one dies somewhere.   

And what does "miss out" mean,  in the context of a horse which is not planning to meet the grandchildren or travel to Spain next month?  As far as I can see,  the only meaningful "missing out" is the pleasure the owner gets in seeing or thinking about  the horse.  
.


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## Abacus (11 October 2022)

I've read most or all of this thread, apologies if I have missed a post that picked up on this. The title here also mentions 'when you're done with horses' which is an extra dimension over the decision about one horse. Some posts have mentioned the cost of a retired horse plus having one to ride, from the sound of things this OP wants to be done with all horses. I can imagine that this is an even greater incentive to PTS - if the enjoyment of being around horses and general lifestyle has passed then the thought of keeping one long term in this way is unappealing. And it's ok to prioritise the other things you want to focus on. 

I am definitely in the 'don't feel guilty about putting one to sleep even if field sound' camp (I've done it too), and would have said that anyway.


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## Birker2020 (11 October 2022)

ycbm said:



			And what does "miss out" mean,  in the context of a horse which is not planning to meet the grandchildren or travel to Spain next month?  As far as I can see,  the only meaningful "missing out" is the pleasure the owner gets in seeing or thinking about  the horse.
.
		
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I get what you say about a horse only lives from day to day it has no concept about future, blah blah blah.

But why would you pts a perfectly good horse if you can try and find another way?  I'm not talking about the OP now but saying the only meaningful 'missing out' is the pleasure the owner gets in seeing or thinking about the horse is the totally wrong way to look at it.  The missing out is the *horses life ending *because you can be arsed to think of a harder solution or because you think that it would prefer to be dead??? 

 It doesn't really make sense to me or a lot of others on here.


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## Flame_ (11 October 2022)

ycbm said:



			And what does "miss out" mean,  in the context of a horse which is not planning to meet the grandchildren or travel to Spain next month?  As far as I can see,  the only meaningful "missing out" is the pleasure the owner gets in seeing or thinking about  the horse. 
.
		
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A horse isn't aware of what it would miss out on but a good, long, happy life has value and I think and hope that when most people breed horses to sell to the likes of me that that is something they'd want us to see. PTS is not cruel and it is a better alternative to a life of neglect, abuse or suffering but AFAIC it's second best to a long comfortable life.


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## ycbm (11 October 2022)

Birker2020 said:



			I get what you say about a horse only lives from day to day it has no concept about future, blah blah blah.

But why would you pts a perfectly good horse if you can try and find another way?  I'm not talking about the OP now but saying the only meaningful 'missing out' is the pleasure the owner gets in seeing or thinking about the horse is the totally wrong way to look at it.  The missing out is the *horses life ending *because you can be arsed to think of a harder solution or because you think that it would prefer to be dead???

It doesn't really make sense to me or a lot of others on here.
		
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I thought we'd got away from the nasty name calling and "can't be arsed" comments and accepted that SAFELY rehoming a non ridden horse is a complicated issue?


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## Birker2020 (11 October 2022)

ycbm said:



			I thought we'd got away from the nasty name calling and "can't be arsed" comments and accepted that SAFELY rehoming a non ridden horse is a complicated issue?
		
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Sorry where is the nasty name calling?  And stop taking things personally, I'm not on about you this is the second time you've said this and its not aimed at you I am talking in general.

You have stated that you always have yours pts so when you can no longer ride your horse and this is your default? You never answered my question.


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## YorksG (11 October 2022)

ponynutz said:



*"She could probably do very light hacking and schooling in walk"*

^ OP's original post.
		
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But not what you quoted of my post


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## ycbm (11 October 2022)

Birker2020 said:



			You never answered my question.
		
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I did . Post 79, but you didn't bother to read it properly and asked the question again which I then ignored.



.


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## ycbm (11 October 2022)

Birker2020 said:



			stop taking things personally, I'm not on about you this is the second time you've said this and its not aimed at you
		
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If your answer isn't addressed to me stop quoting me then!


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## Errin Paddywack (11 October 2022)

I took on my mare to give her a nice retirement with possibly being able to do light riding, she can't as it turns out.  I had known her for many years and knew her to be a nice uncomplicated sort and that is just what she has turned out to be.  Only 15hhs and an easy keeper but not a fatty.  Perfect to handle and good with other horses, will stay on her own no problem.  She is the type that could be a useful companion for just about anyone but she is with me now for life.  My sister's little mare has an easy temperament but is a get fat on fresh air type and prone to laminitis.  Not the sort anyone would want, luckily for her she is going nowhere.  If catastrophe happened and we lost the grazing all 3 of ours would be put down, end of.


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## Goldenstar (11 October 2022)

I have PTS sleep horses that can’t work because it was the best thing for me to do that .
That was my choice to do that with my horse .
It’s really nothing to do with anyone else .
If people want to say it’s because I can’t be arsed too look after it so be it .


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## Winters100 (11 October 2022)

OP I feel for you in this.  And, as you see from the varied responses, there is no 'right' or 'wrong' here.

PTS would be a perfectly reasonable solution, as would looking for other courses of action.  I believe that you are well aware of the risks of selling her on, even as a companion, or as a horse for someone to amble around the lanes on.

A companion home with someone you know would be ideal, but of course these never seem to come up exactly when we need them, and most people look for something easy to manage as a companion.

Ultimately this is your decision, and if you did decide to PTS it does not make you a bad person.


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## ester (11 October 2022)

Birker2020 said:



			I get what you say about a horse only lives from day to day it has no concept about future, blah blah blah.

But why would you pts a perfectly good horse if you can try and find another way?  I'm not talking about the OP now but saying the only meaningful 'missing out' is the pleasure the owner gets in seeing or thinking about the horse is the totally wrong way to look at it.  The missing out is the *horses life ending *because you can be arsed to think of a harder solution or because you think that it would prefer to be dead???

It doesn't really make sense to me or a lot of others on here.
		
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its not a perfectly good horse though? It’s broken?


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## Winters100 (11 October 2022)

Birker2020 said:



			I get what you say about a horse only lives from day to day it has no concept about future, blah blah blah.

But why would you pts a perfectly good horse if you can try and find another way?  I'm not talking about the OP now but saying the only meaningful 'missing out' is the pleasure the owner gets in seeing or thinking about the horse is the totally wrong way to look at it.  The missing out is the *horses life ending *because you can be arsed to think of a harder solution or because you think that it would prefer to be dead???

It doesn't really make sense to me or a lot of others on here.
		
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But I don't think that the majority of people, and certainly OP, do not go with another solution because it is harder, but because of the risk of the horse suffering.  Indeed the very easiest solution for OP would be to sell the horse for a few hundred pounds as suitable for light hacking, but that is very risky for the welfare of the horse.

I like to give mine retirement, but it is a different situation, as it is affordable for me and fits in with having other horses.  If it was not affordable for me I would most likely feel that the best solution for a horse with these issues would be not to leave my hands alive, because once they are out of your hands you have no idea what can happen to them.  I have only ever once sold an 'oldie', for 1 pound to a close friend of my Mother, who I had known my whole life, she was in her 70s and wanted a reliable plod to walk around their farm and act as a companion to her retired horse. This was on the understanding that if the horse was ever not wanted I would take him back.  The problem is that you need to be really sure that they won't be sold on, or used for children to tear around on, and unless you know the home really well and are in a position to keep an eye on things you can never be 100% certain.

I agree with you that PTS should not be a decision taken lightly, but neither should any of the other solutions, and in some cases it simply is the hardest decision for the owner, but at the same time the best for the horse.


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## PeterNatt (11 October 2022)

Everyone has different circumstances and resources so we will all behave differently if faced with a similar situation.  What i would say is that to loan a horse even with a specific legally drafted contract has proved in many cases to be a dangerous thing to do because there are sadly so many unscrupulous people out there and despite the contract it is impossible to enforce the contract in many cases or recover the horse.


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## babymare (11 October 2022)

PeterNatt said:



			Everyone has different circumstances and resources so we will all behave differently if faced with a similar situation.  What i would say is that to loan a horse even with a specific legally drafted contract has proved in many cases to be a dangerous thing to do because there are sadly so many unscrupulous people out there and despite the contract it is impossible to enforce the contract in many cases or recover the horse.
		
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Well said 👏🏻👏🏻 Hence why I made that hard decision to PTS.


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## Amymay (11 October 2022)

PeterNatt said:



			Everyone has different circumstances and resources so we will all behave differently if faced with a similar situation.  What i would say is that to loan a horse even with a specific legally drafted contract has proved in many cases to be a dangerous thing to do because there are sadly so many unscrupulous people out there and despite the contract it is impossible to enforce the contract in many cases or recover the horse.
		
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Post of the thread.


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## Tiddlypom (11 October 2022)

An HHOer recently sold a confirmed and symptomatic PSSM horse as a field companion only to find that it has apparently been sold on as a riding/competing horse. Who knows how that will pan out.

The only reliable way to secure your horse's future is to keep ownership yourself.

And I do judge owners who allow their old sick horses to continue in untreatable/untreated pain rather than do the right thing and put them down. I have my own collection of field ornaments, but they are watched and maintained carefully with vet and chiro vet input.

Btw I consider that gifting a broken horse to the blood bank *is* opting out of responsibility.


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## Goldenstar (11 October 2022)

Tiddlypom said:



			An HHOer recently sold a confirmed and symptomatic PSSM horse as a field companion only to find that it has apparently been sold on as a riding/competing horse. Who knows how that will pan out.

The only reliable way to secure your horse's future is to keep ownership yourself.

And I do judge owners who allow their old sick horses to continue in untreatable/untreated pain rather than do the right thing and put them down. I have my own collection of field ornaments, but they are watched and maintained carefully with vet and chiro vet input.

Btw I consider that gifting a broken horse to the blood bank *is* opting out of responsibility.
		
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I agree with re the blood bank it’s not something I would want for one of my horses .


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## The Fuzzy Furry (11 October 2022)

cat lover said:



			Horses are really expensive animals, and hard to take care of, i can see why you have a hard time selling it, but my advice its to sell it to a loving person, preferably that you know, maybe try to loan it? Then maybe others would be considering it more ♥️
		
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For a 1st post, that's not very helpful,  not to an owner with a broken horse.


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## Goldenstar (11 October 2022)

A decade as a welfare officer cured me of Ever considering passing  horses with problems on .


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## Goldenstar (11 October 2022)

Deleted ,wrong thread


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## Gallop_Away (11 October 2022)

I think we really need to be careful throwing around comments like "cop out" "bad owners" and "can't be arsed" on a thread like this. God forbid someone who is already struggling with such a difficult decision reads this and these callous comments cause them further distress and to second guess themselves.

I will say it again, I don't think anyone has a horse pts on a whim or because they can't be bothered to explore alternatives. Rather, from my own point of view, I would personally find it less traumatic rehoming one of my horses if they could no longer be ridden than having them pts, but that wouldn't necessarily be in their best interest as they will have been with me for most of their lives, and so I would retire and if I could no longer keep them or they became so bad they were not happy and sound enough in the field, I will make that most horrible (for me) decision and let them go.

If a broken horse is able to be rehomed to a suitable trusted home, and it is in the horse's interest to do this, then that is a lovely thing. However finding these amazingly perfect homes is not easy. The fact we have rescues overflowing with these types of horses speaks volumes.


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## The Fuzzy Furry (11 October 2022)

Goldenstar said:



			A decade as a welfare officer cured me of Ever considering passing  horses with problems on .
		
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Likewise


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## NR88 (11 October 2022)

Everyone who owns any animal should have immediate access to funds to pay for PTS. The above posters make a good point that some owners cannot access hundreds of pounds immediately.



I had a horse put down last year and it totalled slightly over £500 for the vet to euthanise and the fallen stock contractor to lift the body. People should be aware of the costs in their area and have those funds available at all times.



Goldenstar said:



			I agree with re the blood bank it’s not something I would want for one of my horses .
		
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If it was the great place that people want to kid themselves it is then owners would be sending sending their healthy horses there for retirement instead of actual retirement yards or keeping the horse themselves.

It isn't.

It's where people send their broken horses so that they don't have the financial responsibility of their care nor the responsibility for making the decisions to put them to sleep.

It's what people use when they prioritise their want (to ride, usually) over the broken horses' needs. "Oh the horse is fine and field sound", until the injections wear off that is. But out of sight...


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## Amymay (11 October 2022)

But on the flip side, equally it’s in the BB’s interest to keep horses well and healthy. It’s there for a purpose…..


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## Crazy_cat_lady (11 October 2022)

Abacus said:



			I've read most or all of this thread, apologies if I have missed a post that picked up on this. The title here also mentions 'when you're done with horses' which is an extra dimension over the decision about one horse. Some posts have mentioned the cost of a retired horse plus having one to ride, from the sound of things this OP wants to be done with all horses. I can imagine that this is an even greater incentive to PTS - if the enjoyment of being around horses and general lifestyle has passed then the thought of keeping one long term in this way is unappealing. And it's ok to prioritise the other things you want to focus on.

I am definitely in the 'don't feel guilty about putting one to sleep even if field sound' camp (I've done it too), and would have said that anyway.
		
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That's exactly why I did it, I'd been done with horses for a long time but kept plodding on until the news about how the cost of living increase led me to PTS as I was already struggling to afford horses and pouring huge costs into something I no longer enjoyed was no longer financially viable


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## Goldenstar (11 October 2022)

Most people don’t suddenly find themselves with a horse by accident it does happen but not often .
Getting a horse is a choice and whatever we tell ourselves horses are a want not a need .
The first thing you need to do before you get a horse is put away enough money to cover PTS or be sure you can always access that amount of funds .
Not to do so is the height of irresponsibility.


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## NR88 (11 October 2022)

Amymay said:



			But on the flip side, equally it’s in the BB’s interest to keep horses well and healthy. It’s there for a purpose…..
		
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They've all got long waiting lists of broken horses waiting to be offloaded. The horse are a resource that are used until they're done then replaced. It's not the holiday camp people want to kid themselves it is.

I used to pass one daily and yes they were herds, herds of lame horses. A fellow livery worked on a different one until it became too much for her.

No horse is sent to the BB for its benefit. Not a single one. 

It truly is a cop out by the owner.

Similarly I had an acquaintance with a broken 6 year old. Apparently it was too young for her to consider pts but also too young for her to fund for the rest of its life... she wanted a horse to ride and could only afford one. She dumped the horse at a sanctuary to live out the rest of its life. She didn't pay a bean, didn't donate or fundraise for the charity but had funds to buy another. It disgusts me beyond words people who dump animals to dissolve themselves of their responsibility


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## Amymay (11 October 2022)

NR88 said:



			They've all got long waiting lists of broken horses waiting to be offloaded. The horse are a resource that are used until they're done then replaced. It's not the holiday camp people want to kid themselves it is.

I used to pass one daily and yes they were herds, herds of lame horses. A fellow livery worked on a different one until it became too much for her.

No horse is sent to the BB for its benefit. Not a single one.

It truly is a cop out by the owner.

Similarly I had an acquaintance with a broken 6 year old. Apparently it was too young for her to consider pts but also too young for her to fund for the rest of its life... she wanted a horse to ride and could only afford one. She dumped the horse at a sanctuary to live out the rest of its life. She didn't pay a bean, didn't donate or fundraise for the charity but had funds to buy another. It disgusts me beyond words people who dump animals to dissolve themselves of their responsibility
		
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I’m not disagreeing with you, just playing devils advocate.

However, I would suggest that any owner horrified at the idea of the BB would, presumably, never put their own horse through a major surgery. Or treat a trauma that required a transfusion.


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## Gloi (11 October 2022)

scats said:



			A little warning about companion homes.  I once sold a section A as a companion.  There was nothing wrong with him, but he was 15 and unbroken and we had got him as a companion for a lame horse, but when horse returned to the livery yard, companion was unhappy being stabled.  I decided to find him a home where he could be a companion again and live out.  Sold him to what seemed like a nice home- lad and his mum wanted a companion for a little mare after she lost her field mate.
About 6 months later I got a phone call from a woman who had found my name in the pony’s passport.  She had been sold the pony 2 months after he left mine, as a child’s riding pony.  Pony had reared up and over backwards with her toddler.  I felt sick.  I explained the pony was 15, was unbroken and I sold it as a companion.  Lady had been spun a huge web of lies by the people I sold him to.  The age in passport had been changed, lads mum told her that the pony was lads childhood pony and done all PC activities with him and was safe as houses.  All a complete and utter lie.
Fortunately he landed on his feet as the lady had a smallholding and kept the pony as a pet and we kept in touch all these years. He died earlier this year aged 30.  I remain traumatised and wracked with guilt over it and nothing will ever leave my yard as a companion ever again.
		
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Still going on. Facebook today 🙁
https://www.facebook.com/groups/215413165159676/permalink/5907932182574384/
People trying to sell feral pony sold to them as lead rein.


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## ycbm (11 October 2022)

The second horse I mention on my post above was rehomed on permanent loan as a light hack by a forum member to a forum member with the forum acting as the communication channel to arrange that.  The horse was sold as a show jumper (he was bred for it)  within weeks.  The recovery was documented on the forum by the original owner,  at which point the original loaner posted saying it was entirely the fault of owners if they were stupid enough to give her horses that she could sell and make a profit from.  Trading Standards and the Police acted together to try to get her prosecuted.  She had done it so often they ran  a campaign to find her other victims.  But I think setting up a prosecution failed for lack of proof.


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## nagblagger (11 October 2022)

[QUOTE="Gloi,Still going on. Facebook today 🙁
https://www.facebook.com/groups/215413165159676/permalink/5907932182574384/
People trying to sell feral pony sold to them as lead rein.[/QUOTE]

Can't read it as not member of the private group - what does it say?


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## Cortez (11 October 2022)

A horse that is "field sound" is still a lame horse. Sending horses to the blood bank is not something I would ever countenance doing, the horses are really only there to postpone the inevitable and as a cop out for the owner. I take it as my responsibility to care for the horse properly during it's working life, and after that life is over to give him/her an easeful death BEFORE it becomes painful or burdensome. I am sure that I will have put down horses way before many of you would have done, and I'd never box rest a horse for longer than a few weeks, ever.


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## Smoky 2022 (11 October 2022)

ycbm said:



			That's a horrible expression and doesn't relate in any way to the PTS decisions I make about my horses.
.
		
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That’s actually what your applying you can’t ride them they have no use to you . So you pts so they are not costing money that very massed up mindset horses  aren’t here for people to ride them and it’s a very lazy way of dealing with them when they can’t be ridden or old.


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## Cortez (11 October 2022)

Smoky 2022 said:



			That’s actually what your applying you can’t ride them they have no use to you . So you pts so they are not costing money that very massed up mindset horse aren’t here for people to ride them and it’s a very lazy way of dealing with them.
		
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Horses very much are there for people to ride them; that's why most people want to own them. I keep most of my horses in retirement after they have worked for me because that is something I can afford to do. If I couldn't afford to do it, and if they were unsellable, then they would be put down. BTW, I *NEVER* keep lame horses; I either fix the lameness or I put them down.


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## ycbm (11 October 2022)

Smoky 2022 said:



			That’s actually what your applying you can’t ride them they have no use to you . So you pts so they are not costing money that very massed up mindset horses  aren’t here for people to ride them and it’s a very lazy way of dealing with them when they can’t be ridden or old.
		
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Another vile post that bears no relationship to the decisions I take to put down horses rather than retire them. 
.


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## Amymay (11 October 2022)

Smoky 2022 said:



			That’s actually what your applying you can’t ride them they have no use to you . So you pts so they are not costing money that very massed up mindset horse aren’t here for people to ride them and it’s a very lazy way of dealing with them.
		
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I think I understand what you’re saying - within a very incoherent and misspelled paragraph.

But never judge a person for making such difficult decisions.  Because lazy they most certainly aren’t.


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## ycbm (11 October 2022)

Amymay said:



			I’m not disagreeing with you, just playing devils advocate.

However, I would suggest that any owner horrified at the idea of the BB would, presumably, never put their own horse through a major surgery. Or treat a trauma that required a transfusion.
		
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No,  I'd never send a horse to the blood bank if it was lame either.  I think the blood bank should be stocked with big healthy sound horses that would not require medication if they did happen to be in work.  On the same basis as I've banged on about all through the thread,  that it's really difficult to know if a horse is in pain,  and if it went to the blood bank lame then that's far more likely.
.


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## Flame_ (11 October 2022)

Goldenstar said:



			A decade as a welfare officer cured me of Ever considering passing  horses with problems on .
		
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And yet charities still restore damaged horses to health as best as they can, seek homes for them when there is no indication that there is any likelihood of them ever being suitable for ridden work and then sign them over to the loaners for them to make their choices for them in the future. They could just remove the horses from suffering and neglect and destroy them, are they out of order and irresponsible?


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## Cortez (11 October 2022)

Flame_ said:



			And yet charities still restore damaged horses to health as best as they can, seek homes for them when there is no indication that there is any likelihood of them ever being suitable for ridden work and then sign them over to the loaners for them to make their choices for them in the future. They could just remove the horses from suffering and neglect and destroy them, are they out of order and irresponsible?
		
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IMO, in some instances yes. Many of the so called "rescues" are simply just dumped, unwanted horses - or more usually ponies, that nobody wants and should never have been bred in the first place. Having rescue organisations choc full of "companion" types that don't get adopted, means that the real rescues, the serious cruelty cases, have nowhere to go.


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## Gloi (11 October 2022)

nagblagger said:



			[QUOTE="Gloi,Still going on. Facebook today 🙁
https://www.facebook.com/groups/215413165159676/permalink/5907932182574384/
People trying to sell feral pony sold to them as lead rein.
		
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Can't read it as not member of the private group - what does it say?[/QUOTE]
People are trying to sell a feral pony they can't catch that was sold them as a lead rein pony. Buyer will have to catch it somehow.


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## Peglo (11 October 2022)

So sorry your in this position OP. It must be hellish. But well done for posting about it. It’s brought up an important discussion.

having put my old TB to sleep earlier in the year I certainly don’t think anyone makes the decision lightly and I don’t believe it’s the easy way out. You know your horse best OP and if that’s the choice your leaning towards I believe that’s the right one for you both.

Take care whatever your decisions are. You’ve definitely got plenty of support here.

also if anyone wants a unridable (because of lameness issues) companion horse I’ve seen one for sale on FB for the very small sum of £3000. She’s very pretty and good breeding.


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## YorksG (11 October 2022)

People are going to struggle to keep a roof over their own heads, in the months to come. There have been threads on here about rising livery costs, hay prices have risen and the cost of living crisis has not hit yet. People who make the choice to pts horses which are essentially unsaleable, are making responsible decisions for themselves, their families and their horses imo


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## Rowreach (11 October 2022)

I also think it's worth remembering that just because someone throws shed loads of money at diagnosis, treatment, intervention and keeping an unsound horse for, potentially, years, does not automatically make them a good owner.

I've pts plenty of horses that I didn't believe were enjoying an acceptably good quality of life, and I currently have a 17 year old pony at livery, who has been retired from riding since he was 6, and will possibly live for another decade, so I do see both sides.

Personally I'd rather be called a murderer for taking responsibility for my horses and pts at the point I deem it best for the horse, than be told on here that I am a wonderful owner for keeping the vet in Range Rovers and prolonging the life of a horse that is completely crocked and will, whatever it may appear on the surface, be in some degree of pain and discomfort.


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## Amymay (11 October 2022)

Smoky 2022 said:



			Some riding riding school buy  horses  they are cheap Horses with issues . I have known horses that have felled vetting end up in a certain riding school . The horse’s  were lame but they didn’t care unless it became very obvious to non equestrians.
		
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@Smoky 2022  You posted this in September. 

Which is the better for the horse?  A ‘_lazy_‘ owner who puts their lame horse down, or the one who proactively sells it on?


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## Abacus (11 October 2022)

Here is a different discussion that may be worth a separate thread, but here we are. The definition of ‘field sound’ and whether it is ethical to keep such a horse in retirement (presuming it is sound enough to be comfortable mooching around a field and feel no worse than a bit twingy if it happens to hoon around a bit). Personally I have pts such horses - sometimes those that may live for many years and probably will have some quality of life in that time. Mainly if I’m honest for my own reasons: the work involved and financial outlay. And because I can’t be sure of how comfortable they are - they can be so stoic. 

On the other hand I would call into question the ‘better a month too soon than a day too late’ argument which I tend to disagree with, taken strictly as it is described. For example I know of a sweet horse, unrideable behaviourally and compromised physically, who had a glorious last summer with the sun on his back. His owner called it a day after perhaps three days of greater discomfort. I would argue that those three days were justifiable for the lovely few months he spent living happily.


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## Daniel_Jack (11 October 2022)

Wow this thread has really taken off!

Its definitely helped reassure me that pts would be the best option given the circumstances. 

This type of horse is the perfect candidate to end up being passed on or being pushed to do more than she is capable of. She hides her lameness well - so well that the physio and original vet who assessed her told me I was imagining things and it was only when I pushed for referal and full lameness work up plus xrays and scans that her issues were identified.

Her sweet itch and weight issues are a huge deterrent and I have real concerns about my long term ability to manage her weight and avoid lami since she's retired (she's obese despite being on restricted grazing since last summer). 

My current plan is to give her one more summer (assuming no health issues arise) and pts September next year (although the thought of this makes me feel quite ill). 

I know some people may think I'm just dragging it out but she is happy now, I can afford her for now and if either of those things change I can bring things forward but it gives me plenty of time to come to terms with it and enjoy some time with her rather than feeling it a chore that I'm permanently tied to - I hope that makes some sense!


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## Amymay (11 October 2022)

Daniel_Jack said:



			Wow this thread has really taken off!

Its definitely helped reassure me that pts would be the best option given the circumstances.

This type of horse is the perfect candidate to end up being passed on or being pushed to do more than she is capable of. She hides her lameness well - so well that the physio and original vet who assessed her told me I was imagining things and it was only when I pushed for referal and full lameness work up plus xrays and scans that her issues were identified.

Her sweet itch and weight issues are a huge deterrent and I have real concerns about my long term ability to manage her weight and avoid lami since she's retired (she's obese despite being on restricted grazing since last summer).

My current plan is to give her one more summer (assuming no health issues arise) and pts September next year (although the thought of this makes me feel quite ill).

I know some people may think I'm just dragging it out but she is happy now, I can afford her for now and if either of those things change I can bring things forward but it gives me plenty of time to come to terms with it and enjoy some time with her rather than feeling it a chore that I'm permanently tied to - I hope that makes some sense!
		
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You sound eminently sensible op.  And I’m sure we all wish you the best of luck with whatever decision you ultimately come to.


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## Smoky 2022 (11 October 2022)

Amymay said:



@Smoky 2022  You posted this in September.

Which is the better for the horse?  A ‘_lazy_‘ owner who puts their lame horse down, or the one who proactively sells it on?
		
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Going though my profile just because you don’t like what your hearing the truth hurts . You wouldn’t put a dog down because it’s old and can’t go on long walks it hypocritical that it different for a horse . When you take on a horse you’re responsibility that you can care for them even you can’t ride them. Horse aren’t robots and people who can’t afford to keep into retirement shouldn’t  own a horse regardless. Also slating rescues is completely out of line theses people decide there life to saving horses at least they aren’t irresponsible like some posters on this forum.


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## Amymay (11 October 2022)

Smoky 2022 said:



			Going though my profile just because you don’t like what your hearing the truth hurts . You wouldn’t put a dog down because it’s old and can’t go on long walks it hypocritical that it different for a horse . When you take on a horse you’re responsibility that you can care for them even you can’t ride them. Horse aren’t robots and people who can’t afford to keep into retirement shouldn’t  own a horse regardless. Also slating rescues is completely out of line theses people decide there life to saving horses at least they aren’t irresponsible like some posters on this forum.
		
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You’re wrong.  I was trying to understand your position.  And found that you’d contradicted yourself - hence my response.

No, I wouldn’t put an old dog down that can no longer go on long walks.  But I would put a dog down that found it painful to walk.  I did 10 days ago.

Consider two of the many reasons that horses are retired.  Age - how wonderful.  They’ve lived a long and useful life with you. They have no ill health.  They deserve to enjoy their twilight years in retirement.  Lameness - this can fall in to many brackets, and it really is up to the individual owner to decide what is practicable in terms of the condition (ie how sever is that lameness) and finances.  Most people have horses to ride. They can afford to finance one horse only.  So they have choices to make.

Now, believe it or not, I think that many owners attitudes would be on a par with yours - ie they would keep their (for whatever reason) unrideable horse and either forgo riding or catch the odd ride from a friend.  There’s absolutely nothing wrong with that.  But of course the reality of owning a field ornament is that it potentially costs you as much to keep as one that can be ridden.  So of course there’s an enormous conflict.  I think that castigating and calling irresponsible anyone for making such difficult (and heartbreaking decisions) is morally reprehensible.  And I sincerely hope that you never find yourself having to make that decision.

I haven’t slated rescues 🤷🏻‍♀️  But I would point out that even the most high profile rescues put horses down.


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## Winters100 (11 October 2022)

cat lover said:



			Horses are really expensive animals, and hard to take care of, i can see why you have a hard time selling it, but my advice its to sell it to a loving person, preferably that you know, maybe try to loan it? Then maybe others would be considering it more ♥️
		
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Sorry to be slightly sarcastic, but if you are somehow able to find genuinely loving homes for horses with issues then let us all know. I believe that there are many here who would gladly pay you a healthy commission to find great homes for their injured or retired horses.


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## paddy555 (11 October 2022)

Abacus said:



			Here is a different discussion that may be worth a separate thread, but here we are. The definition of ‘field sound’ and whether it is ethical to keep such a horse in retirement (presuming it is sound enough to be comfortable mooching around a field and feel no worse than a bit twingy if it happens to hoon around a bit). Personally I have pts such horses - sometimes those that may live for many years and probably will have some quality of life in that time. Mainly if I’m honest for my own reasons: the work involved and financial outlay. And because I can’t be sure of how comfortable they are - they can be so stoic.

On the other hand I would call into question the ‘better a month too soon than a day too late’ argument which I tend to disagree with, taken strictly as it is described. For example I know of a sweet horse, unrideable behaviourally and compromised physically, who had a glorious last summer with the sun on his back. His owner called it a day after perhaps three days of greater discomfort. I would argue that those three days were justifiable for the lovely few months he spent living happily.
		
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I'm in the very fortunate position that my horses are at home and I always retire them. I have 5 retired ATM. As I have the resources to do so it would never occur to me not to although I really feel for people in this position. 

I don't go for the  month too soon bit. It becomes very obvious when the end comes and I get the vet out within a couple of hours. No thinking or planning. I don't box rest.  Are they in pain for a short while then they very probably are but so is the horse with colic, an abscess, laminitis and many other problems  yet they are not all PTS at the first sign of pain. 


I also don't go for the PTS at the end of the summer argument because of the bad winter weather. If they were to struggle with winter weather I know they can be PTS within a couple of hours. 
In fact mine found this summer with the 40degree heat, endless warm weather and flies far worst than any winter. 

They don't struggle with winter. They are rugged, stabled and yarded at night  or in the field depending on the weather. They get exactly the same care and routine as my ridden horses just that the lazy beasts don't have to do any work. 

As far as pain goes then if anyone really really worried constantly about if a horse was in pain then they simply would never ride it because the rider, saddle, bridle, shoeing and anything else has the potential to cause pain. So if anyone rides (and I ride) they can never be sure they are not inflicting pain on the horse. 


. As my retired horses are not forced to do any work they  probably have a better chance of being painfree. If bute helps then they get that. If anything else did they would be provided with that as well. It seems acceptable to treat ridden horses with injections etc for arthritis. There are always threads about arthimid. So if someone is thinking of this, hock injections or other interventions so they can ride then the horse is in pain.  

Before I get any sarcastic comments, as I do seem to on here, from the POV of "it's all right for some people if they have the land, can afford it etc etc etc. " then yes I repeat I realise I am very fortunate to be able to give my horses a good retirement, the decision many have to make is a very miserable one.


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## ycbm (11 October 2022)

Smoky 2022 said:



			Going though my profile just because you don’t like what your hearing the truth hurts . You wouldn’t put a dog down because it’s old and can’t go on long walks it hypocritical that it different for a horse . When you take on a horse you’re responsibility that you can care for them even you can’t ride them. Horse aren’t robots and people who can’t afford to keep into retirement shouldn’t  own a horse regardless. Also slating rescues is completely out of line theses people decide there life to saving horses at least they aren’t irresponsible like some posters on this forum.
		
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Your truth doesn't hurt at all because it's not the truth.
.


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## Abacus (11 October 2022)

Smoky 2022 said:



			Going though my profile just because you don’t like what your hearing the truth hurts . You wouldn’t put a dog down because it’s old and can’t go on long walks it hypocritical that it different for a horse . When you take on a horse you’re responsibility that you can care for them even you can’t ride them. Horse aren’t robots and people who can’t afford to keep into retirement shouldn’t  own a horse regardless. Also slating rescues is completely out of line theses people decide there life to saving horses at least they aren’t irresponsible like some posters on this forum.
		
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Wrong. We buy horses hoping for the best for their future and knowing at that point that we can afford them. They live a long time, and much can change in our lives in that time. As an example, 4 years ago my son was severely ill and, being self employed, I had to take time off work unpaid to care for him. I had one saleable horse; I sold him. If I had one retired in a field, I would have pts if I had to. I doubt anyone is in a position where they can say circumstances will never require them to make a tough decision about having a horse. (The boy is now fine and I’m paying through the nose for his own horse).


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## ester (11 October 2022)

There's plenty of terrible 'rescues' that I wouldn't let a horse of mine anywhere near so we can slate some of them


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## lme (11 October 2022)

For me this has been an interesting thread. My attitude is similar to Paddy’s. My retired horses are kept to the same standard as my in-work horses. I would hate to be in the position where I had to choose, and I am not sure I could. However I would never judge anyone for deciding to PTS.


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## babymare (11 October 2022)

Goldenstar said:



			A decade as a welfare officer cured me of Ever considering passing  horses with problems on .
		
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Having worked in one of biggest rescues in UK I totally agree with you Goldenstar.👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻


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## meleeka (11 October 2022)

paddy555 said:



			I'm in the very fortunate position that my horses are at home and I always retire them. I have 5 retired ATM. As I have the resources to do so it would never occur to me not to although I really feel for people in this position.

I don't go for the  month too soon bit. It becomes very obvious when the end comes and I get the vet out within a couple of hours. No thinking or planning. I don't box rest.  Are they in pain for a short while then they very probably are but so is the horse with colic, an abscess, laminitis and many other problems  yet they are not all PTS at the first sign of pain.


I also don't go for the PTS at the end of the summer argument because of the bad winter weather. If they were to struggle with winter weather I know they can be PTS within a couple of hours.
In fact mine found this summer with the 40degree heat, endless warm weather and flies far worst than any winter.

They don't struggle with winter. They are rugged, stabled and yarded at night  or in the field depending on the weather. They get exactly the same care and routine as my ridden horses just that the lazy beasts don't have to do any work.

As far as pain goes then if anyone really really worried constantly about if a horse was in pain then they simply would never ride it because the rider, saddle, bridle, shoeing and anything else has the potential to cause pain. So if anyone rides (and I ride) they can never be sure they are not inflicting pain on the horse.


. As my retired horses are not forced to do any work they  probably have a better chance of being painfree. If bute helps then they get that. If anything else did they would be provided with that as well. It seems acceptable to treat ridden horses with injections etc for arthritis. There are always threads about arthimid. So if someone is thinking of this, hock injections or other interventions so they can ride then the horse is in pain. 

Before I get any sarcastic comments, as I do seem to on here, from the POV of "it's all right for some people if they have the land, can afford it etc etc etc. " then yes I repeat I realise I am very fortunate to be able to give my horses a good retirement, the decision many have to make is a very miserable one.
		
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This is how I feel too, but I’m pretty sure I’d feel differently if my oldies were in livery.  I’m very fortunate to be able to keep them in the way I think best and not have to compromise because of yard rules, or because of cost.   I have one oldie I’d never stable and another that does much better if in at night. At livery at least one of them wouldn’t be happy and comfortable. If I had to choose between rehome or PTS, I’d PTS every time. When I took them on and they got to the stage where they weren’t ridden, I knew they’d be with me for the rest of their lives, however long that is. It must be the worst feeling finding out an older horse has been passed around and neglected and that would be worse for me than making the decision to PTS.


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## Birker2020 (12 October 2022)

Amymay said:



			But on the flip side, equally it’s in the BB’s interest to keep horses well and healthy. It’s there for a purpose…..
		
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Exactly, its a business.  Some of the horses have been there over a decade, or more.  They have their feet trimmed and their teeth rasped.  They need the horses to keep condition and live stress free so they can collect the blood volume.  The horses are given a token feed when they give blood to ensure they are stress free and have a reward and presumably so they associate the blood giving with something nice in return.  They know each of the horses by name and stringent records are kept of every animal, it has to be this way in order to meet the standards necessary for donor serum.  I've seen posts on here by owners who sent their horses to blood banks and have rung up to enquire how they were doing and straight away the person said "oh that's so and so with the white blaze" or whatever.  So they know the animals inside out.

I'm certainly not saying its a version of how you would keep your own horse, and its no horsey paradise, I certainly never claimed it was.  It never can be in order to make it a profitable business but the serum from the blood is used for tissue culture scientists (whoever they are or what that means is beyond my understanding, presumably they culture things on petri dishes like viruses, etc)  And above all its giving a chance at life.  Its a choice.  I'm sure I know what my horse would choose if he had the choice between euthanasia and a new life out with other horses, doing what horses do.  That said I would never criticise anyone for having a horse pts if that's there only way out, but there are other options that some might appreciate knowing. I know BB is not suitable for OP's horse but I'm sick of hearing the BB slated all the time, it annoys me when its not justified.

*Animal Welfare*

_Careful selection, free-range conditions, extensive good pasture and stringent veterinary supervision ensures healthy stock._

_Blood collection is carried out in stress-free conditions by trained and qualified personnel in accordance with the Animals (Scientific Procedures) Act 1986. Veterinary health certificates are available upon request._

https://www.tcsbiosciences.co.uk/donor_horse_serum.php?genre=pharma


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## Birker2020 (12 October 2022)

deleted


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## Birker2020 (12 October 2022)

paddy555 said:



			Before I get any sarcastic comments, as I do seem to on here, from the POV of "it's all right for some people if they have the land, can afford it etc etc etc. " then yes I repeat I realise I am very fortunate to be able to give my horses a good retirement, the decision many have to make is a very miserable one.
		
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Paddy just so we are clear, my comment about it being totally different if someone has land to someone like myself in the position of being on a livery yard was certainly never intended to be 'sarcastic' or a dig at you or anyone else for that matter. 

It was merely a statement suggesting that if I had my own land I'd keep the horse I adore forever, however I sadly don't and I cannot afford to keep two, much as I have considered it. 

You are fortunate and I don't begrudge you at all.  Good luck I say.


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## Goldenstar (12 October 2022)

Abacus said:



			Here is a different discussion that may be worth a separate thread, but here we are. The definition of ‘field sound’ and whether it is ethical to keep such a horse in retirement (presuming it is sound enough to be comfortable mooching around a field and feel no worse than a bit twingy if it happens to hoon around a bit). Personally I have pts such horses - sometimes those that may live for many years and probably will have some quality of life in that time. Mainly if I’m honest for my own reasons: the work involved and financial outlay. And because I can’t be sure of how comfortable they are - they can be so stoic. 

On the other hand I would call into question the ‘better a month too soon than a day too late’ argument which I tend to disagree with, taken strictly as it is described. For example I know of a sweet horse, unrideable behaviourally and compromised physically, who had a glorious last summer with the sun on his back. His owner called it a day after perhaps three days of greater discomfort. I would argue that those three days were justifiable for the lovely few months he spent living happily.
		
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On your final point I don’t think it matters if it’s a month to early but I do think it matters if the horse dies down on the ground having fallen in rain for example that sort of thing is what I am seeking to avoid .
Fatty is not sound if he gallops about he suffered a stifle injury when he was younger .
In the summer when his teeth went wrong I noticed he was quiet and ping it’s in your head I can’t let him go into next winter I was so sad however I smelt a nasty smell and luckily the six months dentals where already booked and that resulted in a trip to horspital and the removal of his lower front teeth.
He’s really perked up ,it take some time to get him over it but he definitely  back to his normal self .
What I think is it’s hard to get it right all the time , and it would not have been wrong to Put Fatty to sleep .
The bill was in the end £2300 ( he had a bit of complication that required expensive drugs )would it have been unreasonable to say he’s been retired than more than half a decade it’s time .
I definitely would not have put a old horse who was difficult with vets and not trusting through the procedure .
I would not have put a young horse through it ( would not happen it’s an old horse condition ).
I still wonder if something is going to happen that means it was not worth him going through what was a nasty period after the procedure .
I know I am banging on about Fatty but this is what it’s like it’s a messy decision it’s more often than not like that .


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## paddy555 (12 October 2022)

Birker2020 said:



			Paddy just so we are clear, my comment about it being totally different if someone has land to someone like myself in the position of being on a livery yard was certainly never intended to be 'sarcastic' or a dig at you or anyone else for that matter.

It was merely a statement suggesting that if I had my own land I'd keep the horse I adore forever, however I sadly don't and I cannot afford to keep two, much as I have considered it.

You are fortunate and I don't begrudge you at all.  Good luck I say.
		
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Birker the comment you have just replied to was not in any way aimed at you. It was aimed at some specific people who have sarcastically commented on me in the past on other threads but most definitely not  you. I appreciate your problems with Lari and it is a situation I wouldn't like to be in. I'm really sorry you are in that position.


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## Birker2020 (12 October 2022)

Smoky 2022 said:



			Going though my profile just because you don’t like what your hearing the truth hurts . You wouldn’t put a dog down because it’s old and can’t go on long walks it hypocritical that it different for a horse . When you take on a horse you’re responsibility that you can care for them even you can’t ride them. Horse aren’t robots and people who can’t afford to keep into retirement shouldn’t  own a horse regardless. Also slating rescues is completely out of line theses people decide there life to saving horses at least they aren’t irresponsible like some posters on this forum.
		
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I don't agree with this comment.  It depends on the circumstances, it is not black and white.  I had 17 years of fun with Bailey, she didn't owe me a thing, yet I would have kept her forever in retirement and she'd still be with me now had she not had a foot issue which meant euthanasia was the only option.

Lari I've owned for less than a year.  I was sold a dream which has been nothing like and I have no happy memories or years, months or even weeks of fun with him and I owe him nothing in reality.  I've ridden him 15 times in total, and each of those was fraught and he was incredibly tense each and every time because of his issues.  But I love him and I will try to find a compromise which means that either he goes to the BB in the spring, he is pts or I find something to ride (a loan/possibly a riding lesson twice a week might be enough for me) and I can keep him where he is now and have him in my life always, which is really what I would like to do.  I know Lari won't be the last horse I own and I will get another at some point as I will have finances to do so and so the dream isn't over and for now I can wait, but I really need to ride in order to satisfy my own self requirements and if that's selfish than so be in, it was the reason I spent so much money buying him in the first place.


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## Birker2020 (12 October 2022)

paddy555 said:



			Birker the comment you have just replied to was not in any way aimed at you. It was aimed at some specific people who have sarcastically commented on me in the past on other threads but most definitely not  you. I appreciate your problems with Lari and it is a situation I wouldn't like to be in. I'm really sorry you are in that position.
		
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No worries, thank you.


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## Abacus (12 October 2022)

Goldenstar said:



			On your final point I don’t think it matters if it’s a month to early but I do think it matters if the horse dies down on the ground having fallen in rain for example that sort of thing is what I am seeking to avoid .
Fatty is not sound if he gallops about he suffered a stifle injury when he was younger .
In the summer when his teeth went wrong I noticed he was quiet and ping it’s in your head I can’t let him go into next winter I was so sad however I smelt a nasty smell and luckily the six months dentals where already booked and that resulted in a trip to horspital and the removal of his lower front teeth.
He’s really perked up ,it take some time to get him over it but he definitely  back to his normal self .
What I think is it’s hard to get it right all the time , and it would not have been wrong to Put Fatty to sleep .
The bill was in the end £2300 ( he had a bit of complication that required expensive drugs )would it have been unreasonable to say he’s been retired than more than half a decade it’s time .
I definitely would not have put a old horse who was difficult with vets and not trusting through the procedure .
I would not have put a young horse through it ( would not happen it’s an old horse condition ).
I still wonder if something is going to happen that means it was not worth him going through what was a nasty period after the procedure .
I know I am banging on about Fatty but this is what it’s like it’s a messy decision it’s more often than not like that .
		
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Gosh yes. I didn’t mean waiting while a horse is seriously distressed or in agony is ok. As you say the situation will often be messy and unclear, leading to some delay while assessing and deciding.


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## Goldenstar (12 October 2022)

I also want to say when you as the owner has had enough it’s enough too many people make themselves extremely unhappy and even unwell with the stress and strain of dealing with an unwell horse .


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## Cortez (12 October 2022)

Goldenstar said:



			I also want to say when you as the owner has had enough it’s enough too many people make themselves extremely unhappy and even unwell with the stress and strain of dealing with an unwell horse .
		
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It is also ok to put a horse down for financial reasons. I have seen several people begger themselves spending thousands on horses that will never recover or be rideable after treatment. Some treatments are either futile or so distressing for the horse that IMO it would be kinder to euthanise, and I include extended box rest in this.


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## Gallop_Away (12 October 2022)

For me "field sound" is a horse that can not stand up to ridden work but is content in the field and able to move around freely at a pace they choose without experiencing pain.

If pain relief or veterinary treatment is required I am happy to fund this, however I would prefer it was kept to a minimum in order to keep them comfortable and pain free. Not for financial reasons, but rather there is something that doesn't sit right with me about buting my horses up to their eyeballs to keep them somewhere near sound.

For me personally there is a line there, although not entirely clear as thankfully I am not in that situation (yet) but I think I will know it when it comes.

I also wouldn't be prepared to put mine through months of endless box rest. It is a thoroughly miserable affair for my horses who are turned out daily even in winter. I have box rested previously and would do so again for a short time for them to have treatment or an injury to heal, even if it was only that they become field sound at the end of the process. I wouldn't put them through months - a year of box rest however as I know my horses and I know how thoroughly miserable it would be for them.

As owners we all have our own morals of what we would be prepared to put our horses through. All we can do is try to do our best for our horses whatever that may be.


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## Cortez (12 October 2022)

I reiterate: field sound = not sound. It may mean that you don’t see the horse limping at walk, but it doesn’t mean it doesn’t hurt. We may all have our own morals, but some people seem to have extremely underdeveloped ones, or else are very blinkered in what they choose to see.


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## Birker2020 (12 October 2022)

Cortez said:



			I reiterate: field sound = not sound. It may mean that you don’t see the horse limping at walk, but it doesn’t mean it doesn’t hurt. We may all have our own morals, but some people seem to have extremely underdeveloped ones, or else are very blinkered in what they choose to see.
		
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I tend to go with my vets diagnosis, nothing to do with undeveloped morals or being blinkered.  Lari was dancing around me in the paddock last night, had a few airs above the ground whilst I was moving his strip grazing.  If he was feeling miserable he wouldn't be doing that, I'm glad that the SI and hock medication has helped him.


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## NR88 (12 October 2022)

Cortez said:



			I reiterate: field sound = not sound. It may mean that you don’t see the horse limping at walk, but it doesn’t mean it doesn’t hurt. We may all have our own morals, but some people seem to have extremely underdeveloped ones, or else are very blinkered in what they choose to see.
		
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And a complete lack of understanding how prey animals behave let alone specifically equine behaviour 😏


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## Gallop_Away (12 October 2022)

Cortez said:



			I reiterate: field sound = not sound. It may mean that you don’t see the horse limping at walk, but it doesn’t mean it doesn’t hurt. We may all have our own morals, but some people seem to have extremely underdeveloped ones, or else are very blinkered in what they choose to see.
		
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Agree that there are clearly issues there, however it then comes down to what my vet advises and what I can judge for myself from looking at my horses.

If my vet agrees that they are fine to be turned out and not in pain either because they are not being put under pressure through ridden work or it is managed through medication and/or treatment, then I am happy for them to remain retired to the field and as long as they still move happily and don't show signs of pain.

If my vet tells me that their pain levels won't be managed by small amounts of regular medication or that they are not going to stand up to even being retired to a field, or if it becomes clear that my horses are experiencing pain and not right in themselves, then they will be pts.

I am comfortable with that decision process and if that means a stranger on a forum wants to question my morals as an owner, then so be it.


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## ycbm (12 October 2022)

I make a point of sneaking up on Ludo to watch him when he doesn't realise I'm there.  Today he jumped out of his skin when I said hello after watching him through his window. 

By doing this last summer, I caught him head shaking to an extreme level in the paddock.  He didn't ever do it when he knew I was there,  he was distracted, pleased I hope,  by my presence. I was able to work out that he was allergic to his feed and suffering from UV intolerance because of it.  

It's not enough,  I'm afraid,  to know that your horse looks happy and well when you are there,  it may only look that way because it's happy to see you.  
.


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## ycbm (12 October 2022)

Unfortunately anyone with arthritis or a similar condition will tell you that no amount of drugs will remove the pain completely.  I hear of vets telling owners that they can control the pain after colic surgery.  Yeah,  tell that to someone who had a C-section last week.  
.


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## Gallop_Away (12 October 2022)

ycbm said:



			I make a point of sneaking up on Ludo to watch him when he doesn't realise I'm there.  Today he jumped out of his skin when I said hello after watching him through his window.

By doing this last summer, I caught him head shaking to an extreme level in the paddock.  He didn't ever do it when he knew I was there,  he was distracted, pleased I hope,  by my presence. I was able to work out that he was allergic to his feed and suffering from UV intolerance because of it. 

It's not enough,  I'm afraid,  to know that your horse looks happy and well when you are there,  it may only look that way because it's happy to see you. 
.
		
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Agree which is why again I would also trust my vets opinion on the matter along with my own instincts.


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## Birker2020 (12 October 2022)

NR88 said:



			And a complete lack of understanding how prey animals behave let alone specifically equine behaviour 😏
		
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Oh well, we can't all be the font of all knowledge like you, can we now?
Talk about patronising.


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## Birker2020 (12 October 2022)

Gallop_Away said:



			Agree which is why again I would also trust my vets opinion on the matter along with my own instincts.
		
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All along I've asked my vet if Lari would be a suitable candidate for retirement livery pain free and more recently blood bank pain free and he has said all along that he would be.  He's never expressed any concern.  The only issues come from riding him.


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## NR88 (12 October 2022)

Birker2020 said:



			Oh well, we can't all be the font of all knowledge like you, can we now?
Talk about patronising.
		
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Talk about ignorant.


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## Birker2020 (12 October 2022)

ycbm said:



			Unfortunately anyone with arthritis or a similar condition will tell you that no amount of drugs will remove the pain completely.  I hear of vets telling owners that they can control the pain after colic surgery.  Yeah,  tell that to someone who had a C-section last week. 
.
		
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Amazing how you think your own horse is pain free with spurs on its hocks because your vet has told you he is, yet for the rest of us whose vets have told us exactly the same thing about our own horses you cannot accept it. 

Not very fair.


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## Birker2020 (12 October 2022)

NR88 said:



			Talk about ignorant.
		
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So I assume your walls are covered in certificates awarded to you for studies in horse behaviour and you are talking from experience of having studied horse behaviour.  What exactly makes you the expert that you can tell me that keeping a horse in retirement is wrong.  The same for GallopAway?  How the heck do you know, are you physic or something.  Do share.

You are entitled to your opinion but not at the expense of being rude and shoving it down our throats with your attitude which I find very offensive.  _And a complete lack of understanding how prey animals behave let alone specifically equine behaviour _

For crying out loud, comments like this are just not necessary.


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## Gallop_Away (12 October 2022)

Birker2020 said:



			All along I've asked my vet if Lari would be a suitable candidate for retirement livery pain free and more recently blood bank pain free and he has said all along that he would be.  He's never expressed any concern.  The only issues come from riding him.
		
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For what it is worth birker I am sorry things with Lari have not worked out for. I know you are doing your best to do right by him. Please don't take some of the flippant comments on this thread to heart. Please look after yourself.


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## NR88 (12 October 2022)

Birker2020 said:



			So I assume your walls are covered in certificates for horse behaviour and you are talking from experience of having studied horse behaviour.  What exactly makes you the expert that you can tell me that keeping a horse in retirement is wrong.  The same for GallopAway?  How the heck do you know, are you physic or something.  Do share.
		
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"He's happy because he was excited when I moved the fence to fresh grazing on his strip grazed field. He wouldn't do that if he was in pain". It is you would needs to do a whole lot of learning about horses, every aspect, before getting another.


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## Birker2020 (12 October 2022)

NR88 said:



			"He's happy because he was excited when I moved the fence to fresh grazing on his strip grazed field. He wouldn't do that if he was in pain". It is you would needs to do a whole lot of learning about horses, every aspect, before getting another.
		
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So he only runs around when I'm moving his fence because he's happy because he's going to get fresh grazing??I've never heard anything so daft in all my life.  He often runs around, this has been part of the problem!  Hence the gouge marks and skid marks where him and his friends have been cantering around waiting to come in, in the morning, or when they first get turned out in the evening.  There are often marks on the grass from the night before and I can assure you no one moves his fence in the middle of the night 

He's often seen by staff (when I'm 8 miles away at work) rearing at the horse over the fence who rears at him too, he will roll, get up and explode with all four feet off the floor!  He does that whether we are moving his fencing or not!

I'd say he's running around because he's pain free and feeling much better, because of the £6K I've spent trying to get him right and not because he's in pain.

Honestly your reasoning is seriously flawed.  Crikey you must spend every second of your life watching your horse at liberty and trying to interpret all this twaddle that you spout.

Anyway I have no more time to waste feeding you anymore NR88.


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## Goldenstar (12 October 2022)

Birker2020 said:



			So I assume your walls are covered in certificates awarded to you for studies in horse behaviour and you are talking from experience of having studied horse behaviour.  What exactly makes you the expert that you can tell me that keeping a horse in retirement is wrong.  The same for GallopAway?  How the heck do you know, are you physic or something.  Do share.

You are entitled to your opinion but not at the expense of being rude and shoving it down our throats with your attitude which I find very offensive.  _And a complete lack of understanding how prey animals behave let alone specifically equine behaviour _

For crying out loud, comments like this are just not necessary. 

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I have to say this is the pot calling the kettle black .
How do you think I and others felt when you said we put down horses we can’t be arsed to look after .


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## ester (12 October 2022)

Why do threads consistently end up centred around the same person, sigh.


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## meleeka (12 October 2022)

ycbm said:



			I make a point of sneaking up on Ludo to watch him when he doesn't realise I'm there.  Today he jumped out of his skin when I said hello after watching him through his window.

By doing this last summer, I caught him head shaking to an extreme level in the paddock.  He didn't ever do it when he knew I was there,  he was distracted, pleased I hope,  by my presence. I was able to work out that he was allergic to his feed and suffering from UV intolerance because of it.

It's not enough,  I'm afraid,  to know that your horse looks happy and well when you are there,  it may only look that way because it's happy to see you.
.
		
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(Ignoring the pointless bickering)

 This is partly why I have CCTV.  I can watch them at liberty any time I choose and it’s been invaluable, not just to monitor health. For example I can make sure they are all getting their fair share of hay, or know that the hay lasts until 5am when I’m not there until 8.


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## Gallop_Away (12 October 2022)

Some pretty horrid comments on this thread all round 😞 it really is a shame how nasty the equine community can be towards each other on times. We all love our horses and try to do our best for them. I don't think it's helpful or kind to throw out the comments I have read throughout this thread; to question people's morals, label them bad owners, claim you know better than qualified vets, or indeed imply someone has had their horse pts because they can not be bothered to seek an alternative. 

Please remember that we have no idea what people have gone through or are currently going through in the respect of a decision to retire a horse or have it pts, and try to be a bit kinder towards one another?


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## YorksG (12 October 2022)

People make the choices they do, for many reasons.  Those choices are valid for them and their circumstances, in the context of wider issues. People will struggle to sell horses that are up to work, in the next few months and others will struggle to keep horses to an adequate standard. People are having to choose between heating their homes and feeding their families. They bought these horses in very different economic circumstances, with no expectation of the current mess.


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## ycbm (12 October 2022)

Birker2020 said:



			Amazing how you think your own horse is pain free with spurs on its hocks because your vet has told you he is, yet for the rest of us whose vets have told us exactly the same thing about our own horses you cannot accept it.

Not very fair.
		
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My vet didn't tell me any such thing but she tried her damndest to make him take a lame step and couldn't and I trust my own eyes.

Your horse has had treatment in all four legs, back and SI, don't write me snide messages like this, Birker!


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## The Fuzzy Furry (12 October 2022)

ester said:



			Why do threads consistently end up centred around the same person, sigh.
		
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Because they perceive everything is personally aimed st them,  each and every word.... then get furious and come out with unpleasant name calling and denigrating posts, if you dont pat them on the head?

I find life much easier to have that person on ignore 🙂

Guys, whatever or however you choose to manage or despatch your ailing or elderly, is your decision, most take this wisely and some seek educated help.
I think most of us here work to the same common factor x


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## Birker2020 (12 October 2022)

Gallop_Away said:



			Some pretty horrid comments on this thread all round 😞 it really is a shame how nasty the equine community can be towards each other on times. We all love our horses and try to do our best for them.
Please remember that we have no idea what people have gone through or are currently going through in the respect of a decision to retire a horse or have it pts, and try to be a bit kinder towards one another?
		
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Agree with you.


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## Cortez (12 October 2022)

Birker2020 said:



			Agree with you.
		
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 Really? Since you are the Motherlode of many of them I am surprised.


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## paddy555 (12 October 2022)

ycbm said:



			It's not enough,  I'm afraid,  to know that your horse looks happy and well when you are there,  it may only look that way because it's happy to see you. 
.
		
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but we could also apply exactly that same statement to ridden horses. Take the hunting type horse. He may well be in pain but the adrenaline of his mates cantering past makes him look happy and "sound" and out of pain. When he gets home and standing overnight in his box it may be a different story, 

We are quite happy to overlook quite a lot for our ridden horses. After all we want to ride them and it is easy to say they are well. We would rather not fork out £1k for another saddle so we say the current one fits, we want it to go to an event so we say it appears quite happy in the trailer when in fact it may be going through hell travelling but is too stoic to comment. 

I think we have to accept that horses are in pain some of the time and for some probably a fair amount of the time but they get on with things and we ignore it because we want to ride. 
If we are happy to ignore pain so we could ride then I cannot see any reason to make so  much of PTS horses after we have stopped riding rather than retire them when "pain" is said to be the reason. In fact some of them may be in less pain as they no longer have a rider bouncing up and down and being forced to work on a deep surface at a pace they may not be comfortable with. In the field they can wander at their own pace. 

The description I use for all of my retired animals is "quality of life" If it doesn't have this then that is the end.


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## Fieldlife (12 October 2022)

Birker2020 said:



			All along I've asked my vet if Lari would be a suitable candidate for retirement livery pain free and more recently blood bank pain free and he has said all along that he would be.  He's never expressed any concern.  The only issues come from riding him.
		
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This seems perfectly plausible to me. Some horses dont stand up to work, but will look sound if not worked. He's not in work now, if he would trot up sound in hand tomorrow, he would probably be okay retired in a field.


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## Dexter (12 October 2022)

ester said:



			Why do threads consistently end up centred around the same person, sigh.
		
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You cant even put them on block as then the threads don't make sense. There are two of them who stop me from coming on here and I'm sure if I'm saying it others are feeling it.


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## Birker2020 (12 October 2022)

Fieldlife said:



			This seems perfectly plausible to me. Some horses dont stand up to work, but will look sound if not worked. He's not in work now, if he would trot up sound in hand tomorrow, he would probably be okay retired in a field.
		
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Yes I'm sure he will.  

It will be 2 weeks tomorrow since he had his SI and his hocks medicated again.  The vet said he could be ridden at this point although this won't be something I will pursue. So I'll be interested to see what he's like on the lunge, I expect there will be a big improvement this time.


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## Chianti (12 October 2022)

Cortez said:



			I reiterate: field sound = not sound. It may mean that you don’t see the horse limping at walk, but it doesn’t mean it doesn’t hurt. We may all have our own morals, but some people seem to have extremely underdeveloped ones, or else are very blinkered in what they choose to see.
		
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I find this all very complicated. My last horse was retired for ten years - on livery - at quite a high cost. I was lucky, in that at the time, I had a good job and could afford it. She was also my best friend and it didn't occur to me not to give her a life in retirement. She was a funny mare in that she went lame even in very light work, with a light rider, but appeared to be ok when retired. I expect if we'd lunged her on concrete, she wouldn't have been, but we obviously didn't do that. The year after I retired her the vet came to do her MOT. We trotted her up and she was sound but I knew if I put her back in work she'd be lame in a few weeks.  We gave her a bute a day - just in case. Perhaps she did have the odd 'ouch' moment - so do I. Do we then say that that wasn't a good life for her, and she should have been PTS? When I retired her I said that as long as she was happy she would carry on and as soon as she wasn't that would be it.  Ironically it wasn't lameness that forced the decision to PTS but a completely unrelated condition.

I find threads like this one very interesting in that they clearly demonstrate the different attitudes that we all have towards our horses. I think it would be useful to do a survey on this. There are obviously people who don't have to ride their horses but are happy just to have a caring relationship with them. Others seem to need to ride and others to compete in order to make ownership work for them. I'd like to know what the figures are for the different groups.


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## cauda equina (12 October 2022)

And then no doubt there would be exceptions within those groups - for example, the owner who has horses specifically to hunt or compete, but then a particular horse gets under their skin and is kept as a pet for as long as is feasible


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## marmalade76 (12 October 2022)

Chianti said:



			I find this all very complicated. My last horse was retired for ten years - on livery - at quite a high cost. I was lucky, in that at the time, I had a good job and could afford it. She was also my best friend and it didn't occur to me not to give her a life in retirement. She was a funny mare in that she went lame even in very light work, with a light rider, but appeared to be ok when retired. I expect if we'd lunged her on concrete, she wouldn't have been, but we obviously didn't do that. The year after I retired her the vet came to do her MOT. We trotted her up and she was sound but I knew if I put her back in work she'd be lame in a few weeks.  We gave her a bute a day - just in case. Perhaps she did have the odd 'ouch' moment - so do I. Do we then say that that wasn't a good life for her, and she should have been PTS? When I retired her I said that as long as she was happy she would carry on and as soon as she wasn't that would be it.  Ironically it wasn't lameness that forced the decision to PTS but a completely unrelated condition.

I find threads like this one very interesting in that they clearly demonstrate the different attitudes that we all have towards our horses. I think it would be useful to do a survey on this. There are obviously people who don't have to ride their horses but are happy just to have a caring relationship with them. Others seem to need to ride and others to compete in order to make ownership work for them. I'd like to know what the figures are for the different groups.
		
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These things can change as you go through life too, for me, as a kid, any horse or pony would have done, as a young adult, I wouldn't have bothered keeping a horse if I couldn't hunt & compete (I could get plenty of hacking on other people's horses which would save me the expense of keeping my own). Once I became a mother, my horses/ponies became more pets, I have no ambitions anymore, I'm a fair weather rider now, my confidence has lessened over time and there are times when I think it wouldn't bother me if I didn't have a horse I could ride but I would very much miss not having at least one to look after.


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## Chianti (12 October 2022)

marmalade76 said:



			These things can change as you go through life too, for me, as a kid, any horse or pony would have done, as a young adult, I wouldn't have bothered keeping a horse if I couldn't hunt & compete (I could get plenty of hacking on other people's horses which would save me the expense of keeping my own). Once I became a mother, my horses/ponies became more pets, I have no ambitions anymore, I'm a fair weather rider now, my confidence has lessened over time and there are times when I think it wouldn't bother me if I didn't have a horse I could ride but I would very much miss not having at least one to look after.
		
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Yes. I appreciate that it would only show a moment in time but I think it would be interesting.


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## Cortez (12 October 2022)

Chianti said:



			I find this all very complicated. My last horse was retired for ten years - on livery - at quite a high cost. I was lucky, in that at the time, I had a good job and could afford it. She was also my best friend and it didn't occur to me not to give her a life in retirement. She was a funny mare in that she went lame even in very light work, with a light rider, but appeared to be ok when retired. I expect if we'd lunged her on concrete, she wouldn't have been, but we obviously didn't do that. The year after I retired her the vet came to do her MOT. We trotted her up and she was sound but I knew if I put her back in work she'd be lame in a few weeks.  We gave her a bute a day - just in case. Perhaps she did have the odd 'ouch' moment - so do I. Do we then say that that wasn't a good life for her, and she should have been PTS? When I retired her I said that as long as she was happy she would carry on and as soon as she wasn't that would be it.  Ironically it wasn't lameness that forced the decision to PTS but a completely unrelated condition.

I find threads like this one very interesting in that they clearly demonstrate the different attitudes that we all have towards our horses. I think it would be useful to do a survey on this. There are obviously people who don't have to ride their horses but are happy just to have a caring relationship with them. Others seem to need to ride and others to compete in order to make ownership work for them. I'd like to know what the figures are for the different groups.
		
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I have no problem with keeping horses in retirement when they can no longer be kept sound for work. I have given almost all of my horses at least a year or two of retirement. I do have a problem with the term "field sound", this is just a euphemism for NOT  sound and designed to make owners feel better. I am under no illusions about it though, the horses are in some degree of discomfort - as am I these days, with the arrival of old age. The dilemma is in the varying degrees of acceptability to owners. I have a low bar; others have higher ones.


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## Fieldlife (12 October 2022)

ycbm said:



			I find threads like this one very interesting in that they clearly demonstrate the different attitudes that we all have towards our horses. I think it would be useful to do a survey on this. There are obviously people who don't have to ride their horses but are happy just to have a caring relationship with them. Others seem to need to ride and others to compete in order to make ownership work for them. I'd like to know what the figures are for the different groups.
		
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I dont think there are fixed answers though, even for any one person. 

And what you say you'd do might be totally different to what you would actually do when faced with a situation. The same person might make different choices at different stages of life. 

My answers would be different for different horses, different situations, different facilities etc. Some horses will retire happily to a field based situation and love it, some wont. Some conditions are painful / some relatively pain free if not in work. Some horses have conditions meaning they cant retire straightforwardly e.g. weight issues / weakness issues etc. Some horses do deteriorate as soon as they are not in regular work. Some massively improve. 

I like to think I would always do right by the horse in question. 

People have different views on whether life in any form is worth saving or whether quality of life and absence of pain and suffering is more important. There isnt one answer.


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## Fieldlife (12 October 2022)

Cortez said:



			I have no problem with keeping horses in retirement when they can no longer be kept sound for work. I have given almost all of my horses at least a year or two of retirement. I do have a problem with the term "field sound", this is just a euphemism for NOT  sound and designed to make owners feel better. I am under no illusions about it though, the horses are in some degree of discomfort - as am I these days, with the arrival of old age. The dilemma is in the varying degrees of acceptability to owners. I have a low bar; others have higher ones.
		
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I think field sound is defined as different things by different people . . .

Some people - field sound = visibly clearly lame in trot at all times. 
Other people field sound = fully sound if not ridden / worked. 
Yet more people field sound = sound if not on a circle or hard ground or sound most of the time. 

Think the definition varies and you are using the first definition, but not everyone else is using that definition.


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## Cortez (12 October 2022)

Fieldlife said:



			I think field sound is defined as different things by different people . . .

Some people - field sound = visibly clearly lame in trot at all times.
Other people field sound = fully sound if not ridden / worked.
Yet more people field sound = sound if not on a circle or hard ground or sound most of the time.

Think the definition varies and you are using the first definition, but not everyone else is using that definition.
		
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I don't use the term at all.


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## Fieldlife (12 October 2022)

Cortez said:



			I don't use the term at all.
		
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You have repeatedly used the term and criticised people for keeping "field sound" horses in retirement in this thread. I am pointing out that the term has a variety of meanings.


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## Birker2020 (12 October 2022)

Cortez said:



			I have no problem with keeping horses in retirement when they can no longer be kept sound for work. I have given almost all of my horses at least a year or two of retirement. I do have a problem with the term "field sound", this is just a euphemism for NOT  sound and designed to make owners feel better. I am under no illusions about it though, the horses are in some degree of discomfort - as am I these days, with the arrival of old age. The dilemma is in the varying degrees of acceptability to owners. I have a low bar; others have higher ones.
		
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I have never thought the use of the word paddock sound or field sound as being euphemism for anything, its just a turn of phrase that people round by me use.  If they are retired they are paddock sound, there is no ulterior motive, no hiding of anything, not used as a substitute for anything sinister,  its just another word and shouldn't be misconstrued as something else.

Gosh I didn't realise we had to pick our words so carefully... this forum gets more bizarre by the minute.


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## Flame_ (12 October 2022)

Cortez said:



			I reiterate: field sound = not sound. It may mean that you don’t see the horse limping at walk, but it doesn’t mean it doesn’t hurt. We may all have our own morals, but some people seem to have extremely underdeveloped ones, or else are very blinkered in what they choose to see.
		
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Barely anything or anyone is 100% pain free and in pristine condition at all times, this definitely does not mean better off dead. Lameness has a spectrum and being unable to perform athletically without aggravating injury or joint pain doesn't mean that a horse no longer expected to do that will still be in equal discomfort. Many horses unable to stay sound in ridden work (though, of course, by no means all horses) are able to stay level and content when that demand is removed.


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## scats (12 October 2022)

To be honest, my version of field sound is a horse who can no longer stand up to any work or who may go lame if someone tried to bring it back into work, but as for living a normal life out in the field/herd with no athletic expectations, it is fine and comfortable.


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## greenbean10 (12 October 2022)

Flame_ said:



			Barely anything or anyone is 100% pain free and in pristine condition at all times, this definitely does not mean better off dead. Lameness has a spectrum and being unable to perform athletically without aggravating injury or joint pain doesn't mean that a horse no longer expected to do that will still be in equal discomfort. Many horses unable to stay sound in ridden work (though, of course, by no means all horses) are able to stay level and content when that demand is removed.
		
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I agree and am getting completely confused by the point some posters are trying to make. 

Yes, a retired horse can be in pain and you may not be able to tell, so can ridden horses. Does that mean we should put all horses down on the off chance that they are in some degree of pain but no one has spotted it? 

Is anyone else completely lost?


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## Tiddlypom (12 October 2022)

My 'field sound' horses are sounder than many horses out there competing, according to my vets.

They wouldn't stay sound if they were out there being worked or competing with the other broken horses, but they are certainly serviceably sound for retired or semi retired life. Each one's quality of life is evaluated on a daily basis.

The prime criteria for the pasture ornaments is that they are happy pasture ornaments. If I can no longer manage them to keep any of them happy, the call will be made, and earlier rather than later.


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## ycbm (12 October 2022)

I think there is confusion going on with this thread between what is being interpreted as advice for others and what is actually only people trying to defend themselves against accusations that they "can't be arsed" or are "morally bankrupt" for not retiring horses or finding them new homes. 

We are all different,  we should all do what we personally feel is right for our animals and ourselves. 
.


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## Birker2020 (12 October 2022)

greenbean10 said:



			I agree and am getting completely confused by the point some posters are trying to make.

Yes, a retired horse can be in pain and you may not be able to tell, so can ridden horses. Does that mean we should put all horses down on the off chance that they are in some degree of pain but no one has spotted it?

Is anyone else completely lost?
		
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Yes totally


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## Chianti (12 October 2022)

Fieldlife said:



			I think field sound is defined as different things by different people . . .

Some people - field sound = visibly clearly lame in trot at all times.
Other people field sound = fully sound if not ridden / worked.
Yet more people field sound = sound if not on a circle or hard ground or sound most of the time.

Think the definition varies and you are using the first definition, but not everyone else is using that definition.
		
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I don't think I'm using the first definition. The second is closer to what I would expect from a horse that's retired to the field. I would say that my mare was field sound in that sense. If she'd be clearly lame in trot then she wouldn't have gone on. I have no quarrel with people who choose to PTS if they think that's the best thing for the horse. Over the years I've been more concerned for ponies/horses where the owner wouldn't PTS than I have for those that do. If I go under a bus tomorrow it's in my will that my pony will be PTS. He's had so many health issues that I would never be able to trust that someone else would look after him properly.


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## CanteringCarrot (12 October 2022)

ycbm said:



			I think there is confusion going on with this thread between what is being interpreted as advice for others and what is actually only people trying to defend themselves against accusations that they "can't be arsed" or are "morally bankrupt" for not retiring horses or finding them new homes. 

We are all different,  we should all do what we personally feel is right for our animals and ourselves. 
.
		
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Re your last statement, yes, we should, but tbh what we "personally feel is right for our animals and ourselves" really can turn out to be a poor choice for the animal. Some people personally feel it's ok for the animals and themselves not to have teeth done, or hooves trimmed regularly, or a saddle fitted, or fed a certain way. So while I understand what you're saying, it's a statement that can just feel so empty to a cynic like me.

That being said, I appreciate that we all have varying circumstances, standards, and limitations. So we do our best (in theory) with what we have. I don't agree with what many people think, do, or would do on this thread and feel that in some cases, the animal may suffer, but what can I do about it, really.

We all have horses for selfish reasons at the end of the day, and some people are incredibly inept and wouldn't know a horse in pain if it came up to them and kicked them in the face. So many people are clueless re horse behavior and mannerisms. I can spend all day getting frustrated over it, but rather not. My views have really changed over the last few years alone, and I think about horses a bit differently now.

I also believe that euthanasia is not the worst thing to happen to a horse. It's like some people think that the horse knows and will never forgive them. Um, the horse will be dead. The horse is not coming back in ghost form and saying "Omg you killed me! How could you! I had plans to play bitey face over the fence with Dobbin next Wednesday! And was looking forward to second cutting hay." We (generally) project our feelings and other humanisms onto animals. That doesn't mean that horses don't have feelings or aren't expressive, but they're not humans.

The horse might sense something is going on differently today, then it gets a needle (like it's likely gotten before for sedation) and next thing you know it's pts. Or shot (which is quick). There's no "build up" for the horse or anything afterward, that's purely the human.

If you're (general) in a situation and euthanasia is an option, even due to finances, it's not the worst thing for the horse.

I recently sold a horse, and quite frankly found the experience to be terrifying. It was my personal horse that I cared very much about and the sale was somewhat forced (whether he was loaned or sold be wouldn't he with me). There were times when I thought... "if he died or were pts this would be easier because I'd know his fate" perfectly good and sound horse, too. Yes, it would have been "killing" him but he had good years on this planet and wouldn't have known he had more to live, or not. 

There are too many horses and crocked horses roaming this earth that are poorly managed, I don't want to contribute to that number if I can help it. 

If you choose to euthanize a horse when it's riding career has ended, that's not the worst thing, IMO. Idk why some believe that wandering around a field half crippled is a fantastic and well earned retirement. I also know an older mare who will have to be pts when her ridden career is over. She does not do no riding/work/living in a field. Does not. I fully support her owner and understand why retirement isn't possible for that individual. When she's lame or too crocked to ride, it's over. Simple. 

Ok, that was long, sorry 😅

Edit: I swear I'm not illiterate, forgive my auto correct typos. I'm typing quickly on a mobile phone.


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## Barton Bounty (12 October 2022)

Gallop_Away said:



			Some pretty horrid comments on this thread all round 😞 it really is a shame how nasty the equine community can be towards each other on times. We all love our horses and try to do our best for them. I don't think it's helpful or kind to throw out the comments I have read throughout this thread; to question people's morals, label them bad owners, claim you know better than qualified vets, or indeed imply someone has had their horse pts because they can not be bothered to seek an alternative.

Please remember that we have no idea what people have gone through or are currently going through in the respect of a decision to retire a horse or have it pts, and try to be a bit kinder towards one another?
		
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I think we should all just be kind to each other, you never know what is in store for you or what someone is going through m. Any one of us can be in the exact same position some day.


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## Barton Bounty (12 October 2022)

greenbean10 said:



			I agree and am getting completely confused by the point some posters are trying to make.

Yes, a retired horse can be in pain and you may not be able to tell, so can ridden horses. Does that mean we should put all horses down on the off chance that they are in some degree of pain but no one has spotted it?

Is anyone else completely lost?
		
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My hubby says I should be put down 😂 when Im moaning about my arthritis lmao


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## ester (12 October 2022)

Chianti said:



			I don't think I'm using the first definition. The second is closer to what I would expect from a horse that's retired to the field. I would say that my mare was field sound in that sense. If she'd be clearly lame in trot then she wouldn't have gone on. I have no quarrel with people who choose to PTS if they think that's the best thing for the horse. Over the years I've been more concerned for ponies/horses where the owner wouldn't PTS than I have for those that do. If I go under a bus tomorrow it's in my will that my pony will be PTS. He's had so many health issues that I would never be able to trust that someone else would look after him properly.
		
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I don’t know anyone who uses the first definition, always that the are sound of no athletic expectation is put on them, I thought that was the obvious definition 😂


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## ponynutz (12 October 2022)

The Fuzzy Furry said:



Because they perceive everything is personally aimed st them,  each and every word.... then get furious and come out with unpleasant name calling and denigrating posts, if you dont pat them on the head?

I find life much easier to have that person on ignore 🙂

Guys, whatever or however you choose to manage or despatch your ailing or elderly, is your decision, most take this wisely and some seek educated help.
I think most of us here work to the same common factor x
		
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Lol, this exactly


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## skinnydipper (12 October 2022)

The Fuzzy Furry said:



			I find life much easier to have that person on ignore 🙂
		
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Even better when they say that they are going to put you on UI.  You know how ever much they are itching to, they can't respond to any of your posts


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## Winters100 (12 October 2022)

It is interesting to see how views, and indeed laws, on euthanasia vary from country to country.

Where I am a vet may not put a horse to sleep without a specific diagnosis to show that it would be in pain if kept retired. Of course with old horses this is easy, as the diagnosis can be 'old age', but with younger horses it is a genuine problem that in practice does lead to suffering. In many cases owners do not have the money to spend on investigations, so horses are just turned out.

Likewise financial issues are not enough to allow a vet to PTS, even if the animal could not be realistically sold.  The owner is allowed to send it on the meat wagon, mainly to be sent for animal food as most horses do not qualify to be in the human food chain, but this is something which involves genuine suffering and I would not wish it on any animal. This baffles me honestly, that an owner of a horse who they can see is in pain may be forced to keep it alive just to avoid sending it on the meat truck, and they may not be able to afford a good standard of care.

This is the same with dogs. If tomorrow I could not afford to keep my dogs I could legally drop them at a public shelter, but could not PTS. Realistically only 1 of them would have any chance of being adopted, so the shelter would keep them in cages for some months before having them PTS as not suitable for adoption.  In the meantime the animal would suffer. Nonsense.

On the other hand I do understand why rules are there. No disrespect to anyone with different opinions, but I could not bring myself to put one of my horses down just so that I could replace it with something new to ride. We are all different, and I understand why some do this, but I do find it a little confusing when people talk about 'losing a beloved family member', when the reality is that the horse could be safely retired, and it is only PTS so s/he can be replaced.  I just do not believe that if this is your choice you can expect a lot of sympathy for your 'loss'.

I realize that this may be a controversial view, and that I am fortunate to be able to retire them and still have others to ride, but this was not always the case, I have in the past had to do without a ridden horse in order to have sufficient funds to care for an oldie, but so be it.  I do not claim to have an answer as to what is 'right' or 'wrong', but I can definitely see a lot of negatives in having a system where the financial position of the owner is not taken into account in the decision as to whether or not euthanasia is allowed.


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## CanteringCarrot (12 October 2022)

Winters100 said:



			It is interesting to see how views, and indeed laws, on euthanasia vary from country to country.

Where I am a vet may not put a horse to sleep without a specific diagnosis to show that it would be in pain if kept retired. Of course with old horses this is easy, as the diagnosis can be 'old age', but with younger horses it is a genuine problem that in practice does lead to suffering. In many cases owners do not have the money to spend on investigations, so horses are just turned out.

Likewise financial issues are not enough to allow a vet to PTS, even if the animal could not be realistically sold.  The owner is allowed to send it on the meat wagon, mainly to be sent for animal food as most horses do not qualify to be in the human food chain, but this is something which involves genuine suffering and I would not wish it on any animal. This baffles me honestly, that an owner of a horse who they can see is in pain may be forced to keep it alive just to avoid sending it on the meat truck, and they may not be able to afford a good standard of care.

This is the same with dogs. If tomorrow I could not afford to keep my dogs I could legally drop them at a public shelter, but could not PTS. Realistically only 1 of them would have any chance of being adopted, so the shelter would keep them in cages for some months before having them PTS as not suitable for adoption.  In the meantime the animal would suffer. Nonsense.

On the other hand I do understand why rules are there. No disrespect to anyone with different opinions, but I could not bring myself to put one of my horses down just so that I could replace it with something new to ride. We are all different, and I understand why some do this, but I do find it a little confusing when people talk about 'losing a beloved family member', when the reality is that the horse could be safely retired, and it is only PTS so s/he can be replaced.  I just do not believe that if this is your choice you can expect a lot of sympathy for your 'loss'.

I realize that this may be a controversial view, and that I am fortunate to be able to retire them and still have others to ride, but this was not always the case, I have in the past had to do without a ridden horse in order to have sufficient funds to care for an oldie, but so be it.  I do not claim to have an answer as to what is 'right' or 'wrong', but I can definitely see a lot of negatives in having a system where the financial position of the owner is not taken into account in the decision as to whether or not euthanasia is allowed.
		
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It was the same, IME, in Germany.

Very difficult to get a vet to pts in my neck of the woods.

One woman actually drove her horse over the border to Belgium and the horse was then sold to the slaughter house. It was the only way she could end things for that horse (it actually was a quick end). He had so many ailments and wasn't pasture sound by any definition but was still "aware and expressive" according to the vet. She's not the only one that I knew who had to do this. It's amazing what they won't euthanize for. I've seen much suffering and poor health, but it still blinks so we can't euth it. 🙄


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## Orangehorse (12 October 2022)

Gosh, that's awful, poor horses.  Here you don't have to get a vet, there are "fallen stock" people who will come and PTS any animal, and they are professional and very quick.  It is done with a gun which some people don't like, but they do it every day so are well practiced.  They then take the animal away.


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## paddy555 (12 October 2022)

Winters100 said:



			Where I am a vet may not put a horse to sleep without a specific diagnosis to show that it would be in pain if kept retired. Of course with old horses this is easy, as the diagnosis can be 'old age', but with younger horses it is a genuine problem that in practice does lead to suffering. In many cases owners do not have the money to spend on investigations, so horses are just turned out.


On the other hand I do understand why rules are there. No disrespect to anyone with different opinions, but I could not bring myself to put one of my horses down just so that I could replace it with something new to ride. We are all different, and I understand why some do this, but I do find it a little confusing when people talk about 'losing a beloved family member', when the reality is that the horse could be safely retired, and it is only PTS so s/he can be replaced.  I just do not believe that if this is your choice you can expect a lot of sympathy for your 'loss'.

I realize that this may be a controversial view, and that I am fortunate to be able to retire them and still have others to ride, but this was not always the case, I have in the past had to do without a ridden horse in order to have sufficient funds to care for an oldie, but so be it.  I do not claim to have an answer as to what is 'right' or 'wrong', but I can definitely see a lot of negatives in having a system where the financial position of the owner is not taken into account in the decision as to whether or not euthanasia is allowed.
		
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I think I am glad to live in England. 

Re para 2 this is exactly  my view. I don't keep mine at livery so I am lucky but I honestly don't think I could have a horse PTS that could go on to live a reasonable live unridden just to get a new riding horse. I would just dislike the new horse and always be thinking that I did wrong by the first one. If I couldn't afford 2 I would stick with the old one until it's life was clearly at an end.
I have had to do this in the past when we simply couldn't take on any more horses because we had too many. We were overhorsed not with riding horses but because we had taken on rescue cases  that had little hope of being ridden due to their earlier treatment. So in fact they were pretty useless but physically healthy and happy so no way would I have PTS just so I could have a new riding horse.

I too realise it may be controversial but each to their own. To me an animal, be it dog, horse, cat or any other is for life until it is in pain and must be PTS. (it's life)


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## paddy555 (12 October 2022)

Orangehorse said:



			Gosh, that's awful, poor horses.  Here you don't have to get a vet, there are "fallen stock" people who will come and PTS any animal, and they are professional and very quick.  It is done with a gun which some people don't like, but they do it every day so are well practiced.  They then take the animal away.
		
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I use a vet but in the circumstances of Winters post I would happily use a knackerman. Here farmers  shoot their own horses. No idea how efficiently. I found one of mine starving in a barn awaiting that fate. (so he joined the retirement scheme!) 

Winters do you not have knackermen/fallen stock men or even the hunt in Poland? (or GermanyCC)


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## Goldenstar (12 October 2022)

ycbm said:



			Unfortunately anyone with arthritis or a similar condition will tell you that no amount of drugs will remove the pain completely.  I hear of vets telling owners that they can control the pain after colic surgery.  Yeah,  tell that to someone who had a C-section last week.  
.
		
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No ,this is not so the right medication will completely remove arthritic pain in all but the most seriously damaged joints .


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## Roasted Chestnuts (12 October 2022)

You know, I’m really disappointed in this thread, people I genuinely had sympathy for I now don’t feel as much. I got hell for putting Kia down. Some of the messages I got were disgusting. He was 30+ yrs old, had cushings and 3/4 of his hoof was pus due to a massive infection that the cushings just fed and his teeth were done, but apparently I only put him down so I could have Faran and that was the nicest thing said to me in some of these messages.

PTS is a personal thing and I would never have a go at people for doing what they feel is right in putting a horse to rest.

OP I’m another who wouldn’t ever make anyone in your situation feel bad for putting a horse to rest. Take care of yourself


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## Barton Bounty (12 October 2022)

Cheeky Chestnut said:



			You know, I’m really disappointed in this thread, people I genuinely had sympathy for I now don’t feel as much. I got hell for putting Kia down. Some of the messages I got were disgusting. He was 30+ yrs old, had cushings and 3/4 of his hoof was pus due to a massive infection that the cushings just fed and his teeth were done, but apparently I only put him down so I could have Faran and that was the nicest thing said to me in some of these messages.

PTS is a personal thing and I would never have a go at people for doing what they feel is right in putting a horse to rest.

OP I’m another who wouldn’t ever make anyone in your situation feel bad for putting a horse to rest. Take care of yourself
		
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It is absolutely disgusting you were treated like that!  It is bullying in its worst form which there is a lot of 🤦🏼‍♀️


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## Roasted Chestnuts (12 October 2022)

Barton Bounty said:



			It is absolutely disgusting you were treated like that!  It is bullying in its worst form which there is a lot of 🤦🏼‍♀️
		
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Thank you ❤️

Honestly it was hell for about three weeks afterwards, if I hadn’t been as solid in my resolve about his best interests I think it would have ended me. Showed me the other side of people let me tell you.


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## Barton Bounty (12 October 2022)

Cheeky Chestnut said:



			Thank you ❤️

Honestly it was hell for about three weeks afterwards, if I hadn’t been as solid in my resolve about his best interests I think it would have ended me. Showed me the other side of people let me tell you.
		
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I can imagine! Like I said before, we could all easily be in that fated position at some point so should never judge for doing the right thing, if you have exhausted your options the best and kindest thing of love you can do for your animal is give it the most peaceful ending.
I had an ID 19 years ago and I only had him for about a year and he got kicked in the field by the bully horse, unfortunately it caused an infection in the bone super quick and even though I sent him at 23 years old to the vet school, they tried for 10 days to save him but couldnt , its the hardest thing to do but also the kindest.


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## Dexter (12 October 2022)

Goldenstar said:



			No ,this is not so the right medication will completely remove arthritic pain in all but the most seriously damaged joints .
		
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I really dont think it does at all. My grandmother who lived to her 90s was in a lot of pain from arthritis despite all sorts of heavy duty painkillers. Morphine didnt take the pain away, just made her sleep and not care. Obviously, at 90plus she had fairly damaged joints but even in her 60s when it started, she struggled despite pain relief. 

You hear people say the same thing over and over. I know paracetamol wont touch the aching in bones I've broken either, but I dont take anything stronger yet.


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## Waxwing (12 October 2022)

I have no wish to get into an ethical debate about when is the right or appropriate time to pts; I would just hope that everyone recognises that this never going to be an easy decision and people are kind and respectful to each other. I was very saddened to just see a post on one of the Dodgy Dealer sites from someone who had given away their twenty three year old intermittently lame horse, who wasn't easy to ride to someone as a "light hack" to someone who turned out to be a dealer and had immediately advertised the horse for sale without disclosing any of the horse's issues. In this very specific type of situation in my view pts rather than facing an uncertain future would have been a kinder option for the horse.


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## honetpot (12 October 2022)

Goldenstar said:



			No ,this is not so the right medication will completely remove arthritic pain in all but the most seriously damaged joints .
		
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 This is wrong, some pain is actually is never resolved by medication, as we are all different, there are some drugs we do not fully understand how they work, but they do, then every person reacts to them is differently.
I have given out pain meds and had large doses of them, so I know from experience that it's often finding the right cocktail, and then tolerating a certain amount of discomfort, or you spend your time in a drugged fog. My fav is IV paracetamol, for me its like an internal hot water bottle, tops up the stronger drugs. My trade to come off all my pain meds was to just take paracetamol, and try and ignore the rest, but I had the stuff to literally knock myself out in the cupboard if I needed it. I have friends who are on long term strong pain meds, not with joint pain,and it's often a trade over function, the side effects can life controlling, over pain management.
  There is also a problem with neuropathic pain, where the nerves become so damaged, sometimes by the medication themselves, that they never fully switch off. This means that something that may have worked, through nerve damage may no longer work or the nerve damage burn is worse than the pain that you started off with.

My advice to anyone who is thinking of having something PTS, don't tell anyone, unless you know they are going to be fully supportive. Over forty years I have had many PTS, its never easy, and I only tell my husband what I am thinking, that is the only opinion I care about.


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## Winters100 (12 October 2022)

paddy555 said:



			I use a vet but in the circumstances of Winters post I would happily use a knackerman. Here farmers  shoot their own horses. No idea how efficiently. I found one of mine starving in a barn awaiting that fate. (so he joined the retirement scheme!) 

Winters do you not have knackermen/fallen stock men or even the hunt in Poland? (or GermanyCC)
		
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No, no knackerman or hunt.  The truth is that some ask their vet to attend for a 'colic' that results in PTS, but for this you need to have a very close relationship with your vet. Also most vets are very reluctant to do this on livery yards for obvious reasons. I know that my own vet would not be willing, so I would have to find some other solution.


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## Soap On A Rope (12 October 2022)

Cheeky Chestnut said:



			You know, I’m really disappointed in this thread, people I genuinely had sympathy for I now don’t feel as much. I got hell for putting Kia down. Some of the messages I got were disgusting. He was 30+ yrs old, had cushings and 3/4 of his hoof was pus due to a massive infection that the cushings just fed and his teeth were done, but apparently I only put him down so I could have Faran and that was the nicest thing said to me in some of these messages.

PTS is a personal thing and I would never have a go at people for doing what they feel is right in putting a horse to rest.

OP I’m another who wouldn’t ever make anyone in your situation feel bad for putting a horse to rest. Take care of yourself
		
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That is awful that people on this forum harrased you for PTS a 30 year old horse in pain !!!


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## silv (12 October 2022)

Soap On A Rope said:



			That is awful that people on this forum harrased you for PTS a 30 year old horse in pain !!!
		
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I totally agree, they must be absolute bonkers, what did they think the horses outlook was?  Some terrible nasty people around.


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## marmalade76 (12 October 2022)

Was rather shocked to see a well known and well respected equine college advertising a horse for a companion only home on Facebook earlier today 😳 Gone are the days of taking a lorry load to Potters.


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## Birker2020 (13 October 2022)

marmalade76 said:



			Was rather shocked to see a well known and well respected equine college advertising a horse for a companion only home on Facebook earlier today 😳 Gone are the days of taking a lorry load to Potters.
		
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Do you personally know the horse, its history, vets reports and whether that horse could be a companion in a home vetted by the college with some sort of contract in place to look after its best interests? No you don't therefore you are not best placed to comment on what is probably a much loved horse. The horse may not even have physical issues, they be mental issues and if it does have physical issues I'm sure they have been fully investigated and treated and advised by their vet, as indeed have I, that our horses can retire pain free without medication. 

With respect I don't know how you can comment on this without the factual evidence to hand.


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## NR88 (13 October 2022)

So loved that they are looking for a "forever home" elsewhere for a teenaged horse that "is not suitable for ridden work". Lucky horse to be loved that much. Loved until they are no longer rideable seems to be the common theme.

People who love their unrideable horses don't wash their hands of them and slope them off somewhere else. They look after them for the rest of their natural, suffering free, life or they do the responsible thing to stop the horse ending up on a slippery slope.

This forum has been full of horses loaned/sold/gifted as companions that have been sold on as riding horses. It wasn't that long ago that a loaned horse was sold and then ended up in a dodgy "rescue" being rehomed to a novice while underweight and lame.

The mental gymnastics some posters are prepared to do is astounding.


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## Birker2020 (13 October 2022)

NR88 said:



			So loved that they are looking for a "forever home" elsewhere for a teenaged horse that "is not suitable for ridden work". Lucky horse to be loved that much. Loved until they are no longer rideable seems to be the common theme.

People who love their unrideable horses don't wash their hands of them and slope them off somewhere else. They look after them for the rest of their natural, suffering free, life or they do the responsible thing to stop the horse ending up on a slippery slope.

This forum has been full of horses loaned/sold/gifted as companions that have been sold on as riding horses. It wasn't that long ago that a loaned horse was sold and then ended up in a dodgy "rescue" being rehomed to a novice while underweight and lame.

The mental gymnastics some posters are prepared to do is astounding.
		
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I just don't undrrstand your POV. Like I said exactly who are we to judge when we don't know the horse or its history? I can understand you commenting on your own horse but not a horse you don't know.

I'm sure the college can make a determined decision on whether any home that is offered is suitable and a contract drawn up. Just because a horse can't be ridden anymore doesn't mean its curtains, you have to base a judgement on what is in front of you and the idividual needs of that horse, whose problem may not even be physical.

You can't be judge , jury and executioner to something you don't know. You can't possibly know that pts is the only way for this horse. And I'm sure because the owners want to try and find a future for this beloved horse they be appalled at your attitude that they are 'washing their hands of him and sloping off' like I am appalled at the suggestion that I am doing the same for my horse. 

But whatever....


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## Birker2020 (13 October 2022)

Winters100 said:



			No disrespect to anyone with different opinions, but I could not bring myself to put one of my horses down just so that I could replace it with something new to ride. We are all different, and I understand why some do this, but I do find it a little confusing when people talk about 'losing a beloved family member', when the reality is that the horse could be safely retired, and it is only PTS so s/he can be replaced.  I just do not believe that if this is your choice you can expect a lot of sympathy for your 'loss'.

I realize that this may be a controversial view, and that I am fortunate to be able to retire them and still have others to ride, but this was not always the case, I have in the past had to do without a ridden horse in order to have sufficient funds to care for an oldie, but so be it.  I do not claim to have an answer as to what is 'right' or 'wrong', but I can definitely see a lot of negatives in having a system where the financial position of the owner is not taken into account in the decision as to whether or not euthanasia is allowed.
		
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For those that think I am making it 'all about me'  I am not but I am just addressing your post as you bring up some interesting points.

Until I was in this very position I did not think I could do it and I'm sure there are many on here that echo the same sentiments.

But your experience differs from mine and maybe the OP's in that you have your own land I assume unless you are mega rich and on a livery yard are therefore able to retire all these horses you have retired and therefore fortunate. I am also guessing that the horse you did retire was one you'd had for more than 11 months. 

So my horse is on a livery yard, I am a one horse owner, scraping by every week.

I firstly looked at keeping my horse where he is but not riding again but just know I can't do that, I bought him to ride and having him less than a year don't feel that I 'owe him anything'.  However, after reaching that state of mind (which took many sleepless nights and a great deal of tears) I then decided I would retire him, and get another horse.  I was determined that I would do this and when I ended up in debt I would eventually pay it off.  However, as someone who struggles being even £10 overdrawn at the end of the week, I knew it would be financial suicide to get in debt to the thousands that I would have been, my salary just cannot support two horses.

So then after a great deal of soul searching, asking opinions of others, having to go onto anti depressants to cope with it all I thought the blood bank would be a brilliant option for him as he is not needle shy, has been out with a herd of horse previously and can remain as pain free as the vets can predict without medication.  So this was the next option for him and I was glad I could find a solution which may have worked well for him.

I do not know if he can go the blood bank yet, so in January I will get to find out when I have to ring them back. If he can't then I may have to pts but first I will investigate having riding lessons or finding a horse I can ride a couple of times a week (my weight is presently holding me back as due to the stress of this momentous decision I have to make I am overeating again and have lost all motivation for the gym).  So all is not lost.

Only once when I have exhausted all possibilities will I be faced with the decision I am dreading and that is to put to sleep a perfectly happy, lovable, kind, and much loved horse in order to have another and it is not a decision I will take lightly, believe me, I am currently not coping with it very well and I'm finding it very sad and soul destroying and constantly thinking about it on a daily basis.  Hence why I have responded so many times on this post as so many things relate to my situation (as have many others that aren't pulled up constantly) and those amongst you on this forum that are capable of having some form of empathy and compassion towards another human being who is clearly struggling with their decision, as is the OP would actually realise that this is why, and not because 'I am making it all about me'.

Believe me when I say that Lari is a very much loved member of the family and his needs will always come first.
And I am really done with this thread now.


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## Pegasus5531 (13 October 2022)

I would PTS. I feel that by asking the question on this forum you have already somewhat come to this conclusion yourself and as many others have said there are far worse fates. You said yourself that the cost of living crisis is making the situation unworkable and that you are not getting the same enjoyment from horses. Many people are in this position at the moment even with a healthy horse so I would be very surprised if you can find a suitable companion home when people can't afford to keep rideable horses.


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## maya2008 (13 October 2022)

marmalade76 said:



			Was rather shocked to see a well known and well respected equine college advertising a horse for a companion only home on Facebook earlier today 😳 Gone are the days of taking a lorry load to Potters.
		
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A TB no less, if I remember correctly. TBs are rarely wanted as companions, as they are poor doers. We retired ours, and she lived out her twilight years with the herd, but that was on Boswellia, joint supplements and still a fair amount of hard feed! I’d had her nearly all her life though, so I didn’t mind the expense. 

Perhaps the horse was on loan to them and the owner wanted to find a companion home. I hope that horse finds what they are looking for, and isn’t buted up and sold on as rideable.


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## Asha (13 October 2022)

Birker2020 said:



			Do you personally know the horse, its history, vets reports and whether that horse could be a companion in a home vetted by the college with some sort of contract in place to look after its best interests? No you don't therefore you are not best placed to comment on what is probably a much loved horse. The horse may not even have physical issues, they be mental issues and if it does have physical issues I'm sure they have been fully investigated and treated and advised by their vet, as indeed have I, that our horses can retire pain free without medication. 

With respect I don't know how you can comment on this without the factual evidence to hand.
		
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Birker .. marmalade gave an opinion that is all . forgive me if I’m wrong here , but it looks as though you are taking this thread too personally. 
I understand you are having a tough time and I’m sorry for that . But for your own sanity step back . Lari is lucky to have you fight his corner and I hope he improves . God knows you need to good luck .

As for the PTS debate .. here’s my Opinion.. it’s no one’s business apart form the person who owns the horse and the vet treating . 
What would I do ? If I was in OP situation I’d like to think I’d PTS. Way too many horror stories out there . 
My old girl is 24 and has been retired for quite some years now . Is she completely pain free , I’m hazarding a guess no . But at the minute I can say with a good degree of certainty that she is happy . The minute I think she’s not I will let her go . But while she’s bucking, farting and galloping with her grandkids she will be left to enjoy her retirement. I will know when the time is right . After all I see her every day and have done for the past 19years . So think I’m best placed to make that call rather than a load of forum members who don’t know her or our set up .


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## Goldenstar (13 October 2022)

Tbh how many mature humans who have lead an active life are pain free .
I think that a completely pain free existence is not the norm at all for mature horses and for mature people .
This is one of the things that’s makes it complicated.


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## ycbm (13 October 2022)

Goldenstar said:



			Tbh how many mature humans who have lead an active life are pain free .
I think that a completely pain free existence is not the norm at all for mature horses and for mature people .
This is one of the things that’s makes it complicated.
		
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The people make their own choice,  though, the horse can't.  And looking forward to a better day tomorrow is a key way that people get through pain.  

I read these discussions and think the choices we make for our horses are also impacted by our own attitudes to death,  and life.  I have absolutely no fear of being dead.  I am terrified of the limitless bad possibilities of the way I arrive at that point.  I therefore also have no fear for my horses, and particularly no fear of them having any sense of having missed out on further life,  of them being dead. 
.


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## cauda equina (13 October 2022)

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## Goldenstar (13 October 2022)

ycbm said:



			The people make their own choice,  though, the horse can't.  And looking forward to a better day tomorrow is a key way that people get through pain.  

I read these discussions and think the choices we make for our horses are also impacted by our own attitudes to death,  and life.  I have absolutely no fear of being dead.  I am terrified of the limitless bad possibilities of the way I arrive at that point.  I therefore also have no fear for my horses, and particularly no fear of them having any sense of having missed out on further life,  of them being dead. 
.
		
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Yes the horse can’t make its own choice but setting the bar at completely pain free is imo too high .
However pain is only one of the things that’s being considered in the decision .
For example how much the horse enjoys turnout is another , the quality of the turnout available and it’s size is another there’s lots of things that people should be  thinking about when they have this decision on their plate .


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## marmalade76 (13 October 2022)

Birker2020 said:



			Do you personally know the horse, its history, vets reports and whether that horse could be a companion in a home vetted by the college with some sort of contract in place to look after its best interests? No you don't therefore you are not best placed to comment on what is probably a much loved horse. The horse may not even have physical issues, they be mental issues and if it does have physical issues I'm sure they have been fully investigated and treated and advised by their vet, as indeed have I, that our horses can retire pain free without medication.

With respect I don't know how you can comment on this without the factual evidence to hand.
		
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It has been said on this thread over and over again why it's not a good idea to rehome horses as companions, it has gone wrong for so many people including forum members. Yes, there are people who will keep big horses as unridden pets, I have a couple of friends who do but these people are a tiny minority. You can do all the right checks and still get caught out, you can have contracts but they're not really worth the paper they're written on.

This particular horse can't be ridden, is 13 so potentially has 10+ years ahead of it, who is going to commit to that in the current climate?

I'm surprised at this college, I thought they'd be more savvy than that but it is more likely that it's a loan horse and the owner had asked them to try and rehome him.

As for being a much loved horse, if the owner loved it that much, why are they not looking after it themselves? Can't get my head round this.

Agree with others, you seem to take everything personally, try to make so many threads about you, I'm sorry for  the rotten luck you've had, but you need to take a step back, you're like a dog with a bone.


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## Roasted Chestnuts (13 October 2022)

silv said:



			I totally agree, they must be absolute bonkers, what did they think the horses outlook was?  Some terrible nasty people around.
		
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Soap On A Rope said:



			That is awful that people on this forum harrased you for PTS a 30 year old horse in pain !!!
		
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It was horrible. Also wasn’t just on here Facebook was hell as well.

This was him a month before the vet and I called it for him. Vet offered me surgery that he probably wouldn’t survive and if we did it was going to be 6/8 months of box rest or PTS. I think I chose well for him because he was my own soul and I wouldn’t want to suffer myself.

This was his second abscess burst from the same foot. Farrier had been twice to release it. Once from coronet and once from heel. On the third time the vet gave me the above options as he removed massive portions of his hoof and it was just pus and mush. I got abuse for that so the crusaders will always justify life even when life is pain and suffering in a different way.


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## Dexter (13 October 2022)

Birker2020 said:



			Believe me when I say that Lari is a very much loved member of the family and his needs will always come first.
And I am really done with this thread now.
		
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I'm sorry but his needs dont come first. Keeping a retired horse stabled half the time and turned out alone in a tiny paddock is not putting his needs first. Neither is being sent to the blood bank when you have no idea if he will cope with that.


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## Goldenstar (13 October 2022)

Cheeky Chestnut said:



			It was horrible. Also wasn’t just on here Facebook was hell as well.

This was him a month before the vet and I called it for him. Vet offered me surgery that he probably wouldn’t survive and if we did it was going to be 6/8 months of box rest or PTS. I think I chose well for him because he was my own soul and I wouldn’t want to suffer myself.

This was his second abscess burst from the same foot. Farrier had been twice to release it. Once from coronet and once from heel. On the third time the vet gave me the above options as he removed massive portions of his hoof and it was just pus and mush. I got abuse for that so the crusaders will always justify life even when life is pain and suffering in a different way.
View attachment 100573
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Ah, what a lovely old man he was .


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## ihatework (13 October 2022)

My worst was getting guilt tripped by a bloody vet!

19yo tb type. Ex-Eventer. Retired at 12 for lameness issues. Cushings from 14 (acth at diagnosis >500). Maintained on Bute and prascend for 5 years. Was dust sensitive so would get snotty if in unless very well managed.

Id always said he could have his retirement for as long as he was happy, sufficiently pain free/limited, and could graze unrestricted in a herd.

At 19 he got mild laminitis.

I called the vet to put him down.

I came away feeling like a murderer and agreeing to X-rays, box rest and remedial shoes.

Next time I just called the hunt.


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## Barton Bounty (13 October 2022)

Cheeky Chestnut said:



			It was horrible. Also wasn’t just on here Facebook was hell as well.

This was him a month before the vet and I called it for him. Vet offered me surgery that he probably wouldn’t survive and if we did it was going to be 6/8 months of box rest or PTS. I think I chose well for him because he was my own soul and I wouldn’t want to suffer myself.

This was his second abscess burst from the same foot. Farrier had been twice to release it. Once from coronet and once from heel. On the third time the vet gave me the above options as he removed massive portions of his hoof and it was just pus and mush. I got abuse for that so the crusaders will always justify life even when life is pain and suffering in a different way.
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He looks really sweet ☺️


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## Roasted Chestnuts (13 October 2022)

Barton Bounty said:



			He looks really sweet ☺️
		
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Goldenstar said:



			Ah, what a lovely old man he was .
		
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He was the most beautiful soul. I miss him every day.


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## nikkimariet (13 October 2022)

Flame_ said:



			Lots of perfectly decent, blemished horses have a valid use as a brood mare. Why destroy them instead? That's just a waste.
		
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And there’s enough super amazing proven broodmares out there already. Always have to ask the question what makes this horse worth breeding from imho.


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## babymare (13 October 2022)

Cheeky Chestnut said:



			It was horrible. Also wasn’t just on here Facebook was hell as well.

This was him a month before the vet and I called it for him. Vet offered me surgery that he probably wouldn’t survive and if we did it was going to be 6/8 months of box rest or PTS. I think I chose well for him because he was my own soul and I wouldn’t want to suffer myself.

This was his second abscess burst from the same foot. Farrier had been twice to release it. Once from coronet and once from heel. On the third time the vet gave me the above options as he removed massive portions of his hoof and it was just pus and mush. I got abuse for that so the crusaders will always justify life even when life is pain and suffering in a different way.
View attachment 100573
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He was a lucky lad having you has an owner thinking of his needs and happiness. Some people are vile.


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## Rosietaz (13 October 2022)

nikkimariet said:



			And there’s enough super amazing proven broodmares out there already. Always have to ask the question what makes this horse worth breeding from imho.
		
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Exactly this! We should be breeding from the best, to try and iron out the many genetic/conformation/etc issues we now see in horses. Not just stick any horse in foal because they don’t have a job!


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## Flame_ (13 October 2022)

nikkimariet said:



			And there’s enough super amazing proven broodmares out there already. Always have to ask the question what makes this horse worth breeding from imho.
		
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Most people don't want or need super amazing. If the mare were a quality, well put together sort that operated well until sustaining an injury, coupled with the good temperament that the OP described, there might be a breeding home that would welcome her. This mare's conformation led to the injury so it's not an option, but were this not the case I'd be exploring the possibility if I were the OP.


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## Cortez (13 October 2022)

Flame_ said:



			Most people don't want or need super amazing. If the mare were a quality, well put together sort that operated well until sustaining an injury, coupled with the good temperament that the OP described, there might be a breeding home that would welcome her. This mare's conformation led to the injury so it's not an option, but were this not the case I'd be exploring the possibility if I were the OP.
		
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And THAT folks is exactly why there is no hope of there ever being a truly professional sport horse breeding industry in the UK


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## cauda equina (13 October 2022)

Of course there is professional sport horse breeding in the uk - what would you call the Billy Stud?

But there are an awful lot of people eg me who would not be able to ride one side of a professionally-bred sport horse and are grateful that there are other (common, poorly bred, call them what you will) types being bred too


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## ycbm (13 October 2022)

Goldenstar said:



			Yes the horse can’t make its own choice but setting the bar at completely pain free is imo too high .
		
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Well I agree completely there.  The problem is,  with horses knowing that the one that looks weak is the lion's next breakfast,  how to judge whether the pain a horse is in is acceptable or not when they are so damned good at hiding it. 
.


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## paddy555 (13 October 2022)

ycbm said:



			The people make their own choice,  though, the horse can't.  And looking forward to a better day tomorrow is a key way that people get through pain. 

I read these discussions and think the choices we make for our horses are also impacted by our own attitudes to death,  and life.  I have absolutely no fear of being dead.  I am terrified of the limitless bad possibilities of the way I arrive at that point.  I therefore also have no fear for my horses, and particularly no fear of them having any sense of having missed out on further life,  of them being dead.
.
		
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 how can people make their own choice. If  you are in pain other than painkillers that is it until assisted dying is introduced which is not happening at any great speed in England. 

Pain exists in all horses, other animals and humans. There are degrees of pain and ways in which the mammal copes with it. 

your choice does appear to be impacted by your attitude to death. You are terrified as to how you get there and in what degree of pain and want to spare them pain. 
I am equally unhappy as to how I get there but I don't see any point in PTS  a horse (or anything else) just to avoid it being in some degree of pain at some stage in the future.. 
 We have to remember that a lot of ridden horses spend their lives in pain to do the work we want of them. 

I don't get why you would want them to miss out on further life? if that was a miserable painful existence then of course. However not all horses go into retirement in that way. Many cope well with pain, even better with bute, have a positive attitude to pain and clearly, from the way they behave, are kept and ineract, have a good quality of life. Many would go into retirement almost pain free, probably more pain free than when they were ridden, if they got the chance. 



Goldenstar said:



			Yes the horse can’t make its own choice but setting the bar at completely pain free is imo too high .
However pain is only one of the things that’s being considered in the decision .
For example how much the horse enjoys turnout is another , the quality of the turnout available and it’s size is another there’s lots of things that people should be  thinking about when they have this decision on their plate .
		
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this to me is a much better description of retiring horses. There are a lot of factors to take into account. 

Based on the original question on here I would not pass a horse on either on loan or as a companion, to a BB or anywhere else. I have taken in several horses from "horse people" and they have been wrecks  some both mental and physical so I couldn't risk that happening. If that was my only choice I am afraid their days would be ended here.


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## Asha (13 October 2022)

ycbm said:



			Well I agree completely there.  The problem is,  with horses knowing that the one that looks weak is the lion's next breakfast,  how to judge whether the pain a horse is in is acceptable or not when they are so damned good at hiding it. 
.
		
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That’s where knowing your horse comes into play . Horses just as humans have varying degrees of pain threshold . 
If the horse still has a twinkle in his eyes / eats and drinks normally and can and does play / interact with others willingly then imho the horse is happy .


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## ponynutz (13 October 2022)

Why on earth shouldn't we breed from generic horses? Can understand not putting an injured or such one in foal (can genuinally understand the argument of breeding out conformation problems and horses prone to injury) but if owner loves horse/pony and want to keep the foal for themselves or to be low level (which I've seen happen countless times) then that's their choice.

If every horse on the planet was a top level one what would we learn on? What would be in our riding schools?

Going even further... horses are pets to some. Why not breed from a particular favourite as we might with dogs or cats?


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## NR88 (13 October 2022)

🙄

No one has said that only medal winning GP dressage and jumpers or five star eventers should be bred from.

What they have said is that omly the best should be bred from; that covers conformation, movement and type [dependant on type].

If there were gradings for type, as well as breed, then the aim.would be to o ly breed good horses and stop indiscriminate backyard breeding.

As an aside also shouldn't be breeding from "pet" cats or dogs. If only good quality animals were bred the rescue centres wouldn't be bursting at the seams.

The obsession with breeding anything with a uterus is ridiculous.

This has been shared online several times. Very few "but I love my horse" breeders meet these standards.


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## Rosietaz (13 October 2022)

ponynutz said:



			Why on earth shouldn't we breed from generic horses? Can understand not putting an injured or such one in foal (can genuinally understand the argument of breeding out conformation problems and horses prone to injury) but if owner loves horse/pony and want to keep the foal for themselves or to be low level (which I've seen happen countless times) then that's their choice.

If every horse on the planet was a top level one what would we learn on? What would be in our riding schools?

Going even further... horses are pets to some. Why not breed from a particular favourite as we might with dogs or cats?
		
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It’s not that we shouldn’t breed from “generic” horses. And if somebody has a good mare that can no longer be ridden because of an injury but they’d like a foal from her to keep for themselves then that’s not an issue at all!
Im talking more about selling a horse labelled as a broodmare just because she has no other “purpose” in life. The rescues are already beaming full of companions/young horses. I don’t think people should breed just for the sake of breeding. 
(sorry for derailing the thread!)


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## bonny (13 October 2022)

Rosietaz said:



			It’s not that we shouldn’t breed from “generic” horses. And if somebody has a good mare that can no longer be ridden because of an injury but they’d like a foal from her to keep for themselves then that’s not an issue at all!
Im talking more about selling a horse labelled as a broodmare just because she has no other “purpose” in life. The rescues are already beaming full of companions/young horses. I don’t think people should breed just for the sake of breeding.
(sorry for derailing the thread!)
		
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I’m not sure it’s possible to derail the thread after 326 answers!


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## Gallop_Away (13 October 2022)

ycbm said:



			Well I agree completely there.  The problem is,  with horses knowing that the one that looks weak is the lion's next breakfast,  how to judge whether the pain a horse is in is acceptable or not when they are so damned good at hiding it.
.
		
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If only horses could talk. I suppose we can never 100% know the answer to this. However I think this is where having the opinion of an experienced and trusted vet is invaluable and also simply knowing your horse.

As daft as this may sound, I knew husband's standie was lame previously simply from watching him from the yard. He was in his summer paddock which is probably a good half a mile away from the yard. He wasn't hopping lame or even noticeably lame in walk. He just wasn't moving the way he usually does. True enough he was lame on the front fore off-side. Injury to his check ligament.

More recently, same horse, he was lying down more than usual. Not really visibly lame at walk and only slightly lame in trot, but again not right. Farrier was due anyway so asked him to take a look before getting my vet out. Lovely little abscess found in one of his front hooves.

I certainly don't class myself as an expert on lameness, but I do know my horses and I do trust my gut if I feel something isn't right.


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## Rosietaz (13 October 2022)

cauda equina said:



			But there are an awful lot of people eg me who would not be able to ride one side of a professionally-bred sport horse and are grateful that there are other (common, poorly bred, call them what you will) types being bred too
		
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I’m one of those people too! But just because I won’t make it much further than a local unaffiliated competition, doesn’t mean that I should compromise on having a horse that is free from genetic issues and is going to be as healthy/sound for as long as possible.
They don’t need to be a world beater! They just need to be bred with care 😊
Edited for spelling mistakes 🤣


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## cauda equina (13 October 2022)

Most of my easiest, soundest horses have had no recorded breeding so whether they were carefully bred (which I very much doubt) or the result of field liasons, who knows?


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## Rosietaz (13 October 2022)

cauda equina said:



			Most of my easiest, soundest horses have had no recorded breeding so whether they were carefully bred (which I very much doubt) or the result of field liasons, who knows?
		
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Mine too, but I put that down to luck to be honest. And some people really do pull the short straw. 
Learning and reading about more and more issues that are arising as we progress scientifically though is why I personally think that the laws on breeding should be tighter.


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## ponynutz (13 October 2022)

Rosietaz said:



			It’s not that we shouldn’t breed from “generic” horses. And if somebody has a good mare that can no longer be ridden because of an injury but they’d like a foal from her to keep for themselves then that’s not an issue at all!
Im talking more about selling a horse labelled as a broodmare just because she has no other “purpose” in life. The rescues are already beaming full of companions/young horses. I don’t think people should breed just for the sake of breeding.
(sorry for derailing the thread!)
		
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Didn't derail!! Totally agree with you and I don't think it was your post that was the one which seemed slightly short-sighted x


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## teapot (13 October 2022)

marmalade76 said:



			Was rather shocked to see a well known and well respected equine college advertising a horse for a companion only home on Facebook earlier today 😳 Gone are the days of taking a lorry load to Potters.
		
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I was surprised too, expected better frankly.


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## nagblagger (13 October 2022)

I have been reading this thread daily and am horrified at some of the comments.
I am in a similar situation, my 29yr old home bred is getting 'stiff', i know he's on the slippery slope. It is hard because he whinnies everyday and loves his cuddle, pleased to see me - but is he enjoying life? I don't know! He has a best friend who is 27 years (started to lose weight) - they are inseparable so do i organise for both to go together or will i be called a murderer?
At least there is only 1 other person where i keep them and she is fully aware of the situation and is nonjudgmental, its such a hard final decision so for other owners who have been criticised by fellow horse owners i admire you! Most of us will have to make this decision at some time  and we, as horse owners, should be supportive at this distressing time not critical and b#tchy.
At the moment i am avoiding the decision because i have a'sensible' vet coming out next week for other equine vaccinations, she will give me an honest opinion. This is not my first time and won't be the last - but a horse i bred and have had for 29 years is definitely one of the hardest.

In summary, OP, I support whatever you decision you make.


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## Barton Bounty (13 October 2022)

nagblagger said:



			I have been reading this thread daily and am horrified at some of the comments.
I am in a similar situation, my 29yr old home bred is getting 'stiff', i know he's on the slippery slope. It is hard because he whinnies everyday and loves his cuddle, pleased to see me - but is he enjoying life? I don't know! He has a best friend who is 27 years (started to lose weight) - they are inseparable so do i organise for both to go together or will i be called a murderer?
At least there is only 1 other person where i keep them and she is fully aware of the situation and is nonjudgmental, its such a hard final decision so for other owners who have been criticised by fellow horse owners i admire you! Most of us will have to make this decision at some time  and we, as horse owners, should be supportive at this distressing time not critical and b#tchy.
At the moment i am avoiding the decision because i have a'sensible' vet coming out next week for other equine vaccinations, she will give me an honest opinion. This is not my first time and won't be the last - but a horse i bred and have had for 29 years is definitely one of the hardest.

In summary, OP, I support whatever you decision you make.
		
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You do what you feel is right and sod everyone else, if they cant be supportive then that say more about them than you!


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## paddy555 (13 October 2022)

Barton Bounty said:



			You do what you feel is right and sod everyone else, !
		
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I think threads like these are interesting and there are a lot of different views. However I would never, ever in a hundred millions years ask for advice as to whether I should have a horse PTS on here. No way. 

The only person I ask is myself. Then I say to OH "I don't think this (illness/problem) is going to turn out too well" and just about all the time he agrees so we go into it with a united front. Then we tell the vet what is going to  happen, no examination, no questions just get on and do it. 
Still sadly a miserable experience but no worse than it needs to be.


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## Barton Bounty (13 October 2022)

paddy555 said:



			I think threads like these are interesting and there are a lot of different views. However I would never, ever in a hundred millions years ask for advice as to whether I should have a horse PTS on here. No way. 

The only person I ask is myself. Then I say to OH "I don't think this (illness/problem) is going to turn out too well" and just about all the time he agrees so we go into it with a united front. Then we tell the vet what is going to  happen, no examination, no questions just get on and do it.
Still sadly a miserable experience but no worse than it needs to be.
		
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Exactly! No one needs any permission or feel the need to explain themselves either 😬


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## marmalade76 (13 October 2022)

nagblagger said:



			I have been reading this thread daily and am horrified at some of the comments.
I am in a similar situation, my 29yr old home bred is getting 'stiff', i know he's on the slippery slope. It is hard because he whinnies everyday and loves his cuddle, pleased to see me - but is he enjoying life? I don't know! He has a best friend who is 27 years (started to lose weight) - they are inseparable so do i organise for both to go together or will i be called a murderer?
At least there is only 1 other person where i keep them and she is fully aware of the situation and is nonjudgmental, its such a hard final decision so for other owners who have been criticised by fellow horse owners i admire you! Most of us will have to make this decision at some time  and we, as horse owners, should be supportive at this distressing time not critical and b#tchy.
At the moment i am avoiding the decision because i have a'sensible' vet coming out next week for other equine vaccinations, she will give me an honest opinion. This is not my first time and won't be the last - but a horse i bred and have had for 29 years is definitely one of the hardest.

In summary, OP, I support whatever you decision you make.
		
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My YO had her last two horses PTS together, one had only one eye and was going blind in the remaining eye, the other, a homebred, had been retired for years and was becoming more & more unsound. Although it's hard for us (took my YO a while to get over it) it's the best thing for a pair of friends who've spent many years together.


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## meleeka (13 October 2022)

paddy555 said:



			I think threads like these are interesting and there are a lot of different views. However I would never, ever in a hundred millions years ask for advice as to whether I should have a horse PTS on here. No way. 

The only person I ask is myself. Then I say to OH "I don't think this (illness/problem) is going to turn out too well" and just about all the time he agrees so we go into it with a united front. Then we tell the vet what is going to  happen, no examination, no questions just get on and do it.
Still sadly a miserable experience but no worse than it needs to be.
		
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That’s how it worked for me too.  The only person that has to be at peace with the decision is the person making it.  It’s them that has to live with it, nobody else.


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## whizzer (13 October 2022)

A few years back I rehomed a young,unrideable horse to be a surrogate for embryo transfer foals,I'd also looked into the blood bank as well. If neither of these had worked out I would've had her euthanized. I'd already spent a lot of money trying to get her rideable & I couldn't afford to keep her & get another one to ride.


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## Winters100 (13 October 2022)

whizzer said:



			A few years back I rehomed a young,unrideable horse to be a surrogate for embryo transfer foals,I'd also looked into the blood bank as well. If neither of these had worked out I would've had her euthanized. I'd already spent a lot of money trying to get her rideable & I couldn't afford to keep her & get another one to ride.
		
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Sorry, I know that I am perhaps in a minority here, but to me it is astonishing that it could be considered socially acceptable to PTS just for the purpose of replacing a horse with something more 'useful'.

I 100% agree that when funds do not allow one to offer proper care, or when the horse is too 'broken' to have a happy retirement, that this is the right course of action, because it is in the best interests of the horse.  But you would have PTS just to replace the horse?  Is it in the best interests of the horse to be PTS just so that his/her place may be taken by another?  We all talk about respecting our animals and not treating them as machines, to me to put one of mine to sleep just to have something to ride is exactly that.  If you simply view your horses as tools fine, but in my opinion living beings are not just tools or toys.


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## paddy555 (13 October 2022)

Winters100 said:



			Sorry, I know that I am perhaps in a minority here, but to me it is astonishing that it could be considered socially acceptable to PTS just for the purpose of replacing a horse with something more 'useful'.

I 100% agree that when funds do not allow one to offer proper care, or when the horse is too 'broken' to have a happy retirement, that this is the right course of action, because it is in the best interests of the horse.  But you would have PTS just to replace the horse?  Is it in the best interests of the horse to be PTS just so that his/her place may be taken by another?  We all talk about respecting our animals and not treating them as machines, to me to put one of mine to sleep just to have something to ride is exactly that.  If you simply view your horses as tools fine, but in my opinion living beings are not just tools or toys.
		
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I agree with you as I did last night. However I think we may be in a minority of 2 ATM. Anyone care to join us?


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## Barton Bounty (13 October 2022)

paddy555 said:



			I agree with you as I did last night. However I think we may be in a minority of 2 ATM. Anyone care to join us? 

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No, I agree with you both. As I have said above. PTS only after all other avenues exhausted. Not just willy nilly pts for the sake


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## nagblagger (13 October 2022)

I think having 16 field ornaments speaks for me! No I don't own land.


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## stangs (13 October 2022)

paddy555 said:



			I agree with you as I did last night. However I think we may be in a minority of 2 ATM. Anyone care to join us? 

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I’ll join.

My boy’s non-ridden presently, and I don’t know if he’ll stand up to any kind of proper ridden work. I miss riding, but seeing how much fun he has going for hacks in hand more than makes up for it. And he makes a great walking companion for me, better companion than most people I’ve walked with. I can’t fathom the idea that another owner might have put him to sleep because he isn’t rideable.

Until death do us part, I would have thought, not “until I can’t use you to achieve my ridden goals”.


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## Soap On A Rope (13 October 2022)

Asha said:



			Birker .. marmalade gave an opinion that is all . forgive me if I’m wrong here , but it looks as though you are taking this thread too personally.
I understand you are having a tough time and I’m sorry for that . But for your own sanity step back . Lari is lucky to have you fight his corner and I hope he improves . God knows you need to good luck .

As for the PTS debate .. here’s my Opinion.. it’s no one’s business apart form the person who owns the horse and the vet treating .
What would I do ? If I was in OP situation I’d like to think I’d PTS. Way too many horror stories out there .
My old girl is 24 and has been retired for quite some years now . Is she completely pain free , I’m hazarding a guess no . But at the minute I can say with a good degree of certainty that she is happy . The minute I think she’s not I will let her go . But while she’s bucking, farting and galloping with her grandkids she will be left to enjoy her retirement. I will know when the time is right . After all I see her every day and have done for the past 19years . So think I’m best placed to make that call rather than a load of forum members who don’t know her or our set up .
		
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Birker always takes threads too personally...


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## marmalade76 (13 October 2022)

paddy555 said:



			I agree with you as I did last night. However I think we may be in a minority of 2 ATM. Anyone care to join us? 

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You can add me too, I've never had a horse PTS so I could replace it, I had mine PTS when their health issues became too much. The first, I only had him so just didn't ride (apart from a bit of hacking on mates' horses), with the others, I had more than one.


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## Bernster (13 October 2022)

I’ve known people keep their horse for far longer than I would before PTS.  And others who have PTS when I wouldn’t. Whilst I would have taken another path it’s not my decision and I’m not going to judge them when I’m not in their shoes.  The amount of judgement, and apparent lack of empathy on this thread, make me sad.


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## Laurac13 (13 October 2022)

I have 2 field ornaments one is a pony companion the other my 11 year old horse was retired over a year ago due to neurological issues, so I haven’t ridden for a very long time, can’t afford a 3rd but I love caring for my boys 🥰


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## DizzyDoughnut (13 October 2022)

paddy555 said:



			I agree with you as I did last night. However I think we may be in a minority of 2 ATM. Anyone care to join us? 

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I'd like to join, I haven't had a rideable horse for years now but I have had very happy ponies that have lived a good healthy life with me until a time where it was in their best interests to PTS due to illness or old age catching up with them, I could not put them down just because I couldn't ride them and I won't sell them on so they stay and enjoy their life with their friends. I wouldn't however keep a horse going that was ill or in pain, they would get a put down at home where they were happy. I do now have a 3 year old as well so hopefully next year I might finally get to ride one of my own ponies but if for whatever reason he turns out not to be rideable but is otherwise happy and healthy he will also have a home for life with me. I also don't have my own land or unlimited funds. However I would never judge someone that did decide to PTS it's just not the choice for me unless it was a choice between them and or food for my family.


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## ponynutz (13 October 2022)

paddy555 said:



			I agree with you as I did last night. However I think we may be in a minority of 2 ATM. Anyone care to join us? 

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I'm with you. II'm just enjoying seeing everyone's opinions and so far it's been a fairly tame thread in regards to it not being derailed with arguments


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## whizzer (13 October 2022)

Winters100 said:



			Sorry, I know that I am perhaps in a minority here, but to me it is astonishing that it could be considered socially acceptable to PTS just for the purpose of replacing a horse with something more 'useful'.

I 100% agree that when funds do not allow one to offer proper care, or when the horse is too 'broken' to have a happy retirement, that this is the right course of action, because it is in the best interests of the horse.  But you would have PTS just to replace the horse?  Is it in the best interests of the horse to be PTS just so that his/her place may be taken by another?  We all talk about respecting our animals and not treating them as machines, to me to put one of mine to sleep just to have something to ride is exactly that.  If you simply view your horses as tools fine, but in my opinion living beings are not just tools or toys.
		
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My horse,my choice, wasn't asking for opinions.
I'd spent 2 years & somewhere in the region of £12,00 trying to sort this mare out. And yes if I'd not been able to rehome as surrogate or to blood bank I would've PTS her, I wasn't prepared to pay out to keep her for 15-20 odd years & not be able to afford one to ride,they're an expensive pet,neither was I going to risk rehoming to some random person as a field companion. If money was no object or I had my own land it would be a different story. I don't view my horses as tools or machines at all,in fact at the same time I had this mare I also had a retired horse who I'd had through thick & thin for nearly 20 years,I expected him to be with me for quite a few more years & that was also a deciding factor in not keeping her as I couldn't afford them plus a 3rd,I lost him to colic 3 days after she went. I didn't come here for an argument or other people's opinions so this is my only & final reply on the matter.


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## Peglo (14 October 2022)

whizzer said:



			My horse,my choice, wasn't asking for opinions.
I'd spent 2 years & somewhere in the region of £12,00 trying to sort this mare out. And yes if I'd not been able to rehome as surrogate or to blood bank I would've PTS her, I wasn't prepared to pay out to keep her for 15-20 odd years & not be able to afford one to ride,they're an expensive pet,neither was I going to risk rehoming to some random person as a field companion. If money was no object or I had my own land it would be a different story. I don't view my horses as tools or machines at all,in fact at the same time I had this mare I also had a retired horse who I'd had through thick & thin for nearly 20 years,I expected him to be with me for quite a few more years & that was also a deciding factor in not keeping her as I couldn't afford them plus a 3rd,I lost him to colic 3 days after she went. I didn't come here for an argument or other people's opinions so this is my only & final reply on the matter.
		
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I agree, it’s your horse, your decision and I don’t judge you for that. But everyone is just saying what they would do.

personally I wouldn’t PTS to replace. For years I had my 2 oldies and enjoyed having them more than riding. I was in a position to have a 3rd horse so one wasn’t left by herself when the time came for one to be PTS and that’s what happened. 2 is a more comfortable amount for me but I did love having my 3

on the other hand I wouldn’t spend £12,000 to try and fix a horse if they could be happy in the field not ridden. I don’t think I’m right or wrong in that as I don’t think you were wrong to try.  It’s just what I would do.


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## maya2008 (14 October 2022)

On the ethics front, it is not a welfare issue to pts a horse. We live in a country where most people eat meat - the cows we have watched grow up on the local farm went to market last week. If it is socially acceptable to send them to slaughter to eat them, then it’s ok to pts an unrideable horse so the owner has the funds to get another. Apparently even PETA think pts is ok since they like to do so for healthy puppies etc that could find loving homes!


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## ycbm (14 October 2022)

Peglo said:



			For years I had my 2 oldies and enjoyed having them more than riding
		
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This is the crux of it all,  really,  though it may be too much psychological gobbledegook for some.

In all our actions in life we all do what makes us feel best.  In some situations that's what makes us feel least bad,  but it's the same thing.  So people who are keeping horses alive that others would not are doing what makes them feel right in their heads and comfortable in their skin.  And people who have horses PTS earlier are doing exactly the same.  And some people would fall apart completely if they couldn't ever ride their own horse again, and can't afford to keep another.  And unless people have the ability to get inside that owner's head,  they have absolutely no moral right to voice their criticism of what anyone else legally chooses to do with their horse.
.


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## Slightlyconfused (14 October 2022)

Daniel_Jack said:



			Wow this thread has really taken off!

Its definitely helped reassure me that pts would be the best option given the circumstances.

This type of horse is the perfect candidate to end up being passed on or being pushed to do more than she is capable of. She hides her lameness well - so well that the physio and original vet who assessed her told me I was imagining things and it was only when I pushed for referal and full lameness work up plus xrays and scans that her issues were identified.

Her sweet itch and weight issues are a huge deterrent and I have real concerns about my long term ability to manage her weight and avoid lami since she's retired (she's obese despite being on restricted grazing since last summer).

My current plan is to give her one more summer (assuming no health issues arise) and pts September next year (although the thought of this makes me feel quite ill).

I know some people may think I'm just dragging it out but she is happy now, I can afford her for now and if either of those things change I can bring things forward but it gives me plenty of time to come to terms with it and enjoy some time with her rather than feeling it a chore that I'm permanently tied to - I hope that makes some sense!
		
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This is pretty much what we did with our wb mare. 

Was only in pain when saddle was on her back with a rider on so retired at 13 with the knowledge that if money got tight she would be pts in the home that she felt safe and wasnt ear twitch or beaten.

We could afford to keep for retired while she was happy bombing about in the feild like a loon 🤣 she was perfect to handle etc. Would never have passed her on as her breeding was amazing and she jumped like a stag so would have been bute up to the eyeballs.

As soon as she started showing mild lameness/being off we mildly imvestigated just for my peace of mind. Then we pts, could have managed her with one danilion a day but it would have been for me not her so we didnt. To look at her you would think she was healthly and sound. 

So in a long way of saying it, i think you are doing the right thing for you.


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## dogatemysalad (14 October 2022)

Winters100 said:



			Sorry, I know that I am perhaps in a minority here, but to me it is astonishing that it could be considered socially acceptable to PTS just for the purpose of replacing a horse with something more 'useful'.

I 100% agree that when funds do not allow one to offer proper care, or when the horse is too 'broken' to have a happy retirement, that this is the right course of action, because it is in the best interests of the horse.  But you would have PTS just to replace the horse?  Is it in the best interests of the horse to be PTS just so that his/her place may be taken by another?  We all talk about respecting our animals and not treating them as machines, to me to put one of mine to sleep just to have something to ride is exactly that.  If you simply view your horses as tools fine, but in my opinion living beings are not just tools or toys.
		
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This is my attitude too. I would not PTS so that i could replace it with another horse. Mine are always retired, because the day I bought them, was the day I took responsibility to do my best for them. I don't care about my horses because they are rideable, I care for  them because they are horses.


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## paddy555 (14 October 2022)

dogatemysalad said:



			This is my attitude too. I would not PTS so that i could replace it with another horse. Mine are always retired, because the day I bought them, was the day I took responsibility to do my best for them. I don't care about my horses because they are rideable, I care for  them because they are horses.
		
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totally. The minute I buy a horse I am aware that tomorrow it could become unrideable and may have to spend the rest of it's life in retirement.


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## Slightlyconfused (14 October 2022)

Dexter said:



			I really dont think it does at all. My grandmother who lived to her 90s was in a lot of pain from arthritis despite all sorts of heavy duty painkillers. Morphine didnt take the pain away, just made her sleep and not care. Obviously, at 90plus she had fairly damaged joints but even in her 60s when it started, she struggled despite pain relief. 

You hear people say the same thing over and over. I know paracetamol wont touch the aching in bones I've broken either, but I dont take anything stronger yet.
		
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This

I am on a lot of medication for my arthritis  diagnosed at 28 and nearly ten years later i still havent found a pain killer that totally works. 

My meds help slow down the process but the pain is just muted a bit. I have constant low level discomfort / pain that i just have to live with and is worse with in activity.


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## Slightlyconfused (14 October 2022)

ihatework said:



			My worst was getting guilt tripped by a bloody vet!

19yo tb type. Ex-Eventer. Retired at 12 for lameness issues. Cushings from 14 (acth at diagnosis >500). Maintained on Bute and prascend for 5 years. Was dust sensitive so would get snotty if in unless very well managed.

Id always said he could have his retirement for as long as he was happy, sufficiently pain free/limited, and could graze unrestricted in a herd.

At 19 he got mild laminitis.

I called the vet to put him down.

I came away feeling like a murderer and agreeing to X-rays, box rest and remedial shoes.

Next time I just called the hunt.
		
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My 24 year old welsh came down with lami in all four hooves and then coliced from the pain, she was retired anyway. The vet that came out out of hours wanted to try and get her through it and wouldnt listen that she had arthritis and coliced on box rest. We manged to get her through the colic and comfy over night.

The next morning i called the head vet and he came out and pts. He completely agreed with our choice as he had known her for years. He also had a word with the other vet and she left a few months later for some unknown reason. 

Its horrid when vets make you feel guilty


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## paddy555 (14 October 2022)

ycbm said:



			This is the crux of it all,  really,  though it may be too much psychological gobbledegook for some.

In all our actions in life we all do what makes us feel best.  In some situations that's what makes us feel least bad,  but it's the same thing.  So people who are keeping horses alive that others would not are doing what makes them feel right in their heads and comfortable in their skin.  And people who have horses PTS earlier are doing exactly the same.  And some people would fall apart completely if they couldn't ever ride their own horse again, and can't afford to keep another.  And unless people have the ability to get inside that owner's head,  they have absolutely no moral right to voice their criticism of what anyone else legally chooses to do with their horse.
.
		
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that post makes it sound all about the owner and what they want and what is best for them. 



Winters100 said:



			If you simply view your horses as tools fine, but in my opinion living beings are not just tools or toys.
		
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this one doesn't


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## ycbm (14 October 2022)

paddy555 said:



			that post makes it sound all about the owner and what they want and what is best for them
		
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That's because you don't understand what I've written. 

It has to be about what makes the owner feel the best way they can. Everything we each do in life is based on what makes us feel least bad at the time.

If it makes you feel good to keep retired horses alive,  be thankful, but don't assume everyone else would feel the same and for goodness sake please stop telling them (me) that they (I) should!
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## oldie48 (14 October 2022)

The problem with threads like this is we are all unique in terms of our situation and each horse is unique in terms of it's reason for being retired, so although we can talk about what we would do/ have done we can never really understand someone else's situation and motivation. This is why I try not to be judgemental. I would like to be able to say that I have always done the best by every horse and pony that I've been privileged to own but with hindsight and more experience I know that's not true. I did the best I could at the time and if I had my time again, I know I would do some things differently but that's true of life in general. My much loved old TB went down with cellulitis aged 26, he was in so much pain that I wanted the vet to pts but she suggested that we give him 24 hours and I agreed. He had a really horrible two weeks and although he recovered enough to go out in the field and was bright enough in himself his leg remained very swollen and stiff. I lost him to strangulated colic less than two years later. I bitterly regret not having him PTS when he had cellulitis, his colic was dreadful, I heard him thrashing around in his stable from my bedroom in the early hours of the morning. I have no idea how long he'd been like that, I hope that it wasn't very long and I had a vet with me to PTS  within 40 minutes. Sadly old horses rarely seem to die peacefully in their field.


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## Barton Bounty (14 October 2022)

nagblagger said:



			I think having 16 field ornaments speaks for me! No I don't own land.
		
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You obviously have a very big heart ❤️


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## Gallop_Away (14 October 2022)

I'm quite happy to keep mine as field ornaments. So long as they are happy and not in pain. They have brought me so much happiness. So many wonderful rides, days hunting, and even the little moments like hearing those little wickers when I walk into the barn at the end of a really awful day. 
I am happy to sacrifice my riding if it means keeping them comfortable in their twilight years and giving them a happy retirement.
But I do understand everyone is different and we must do what we feel is right.


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## Sossigpoker (14 October 2022)

There are fates far worse than a peaceful death for a horse that can't fill the purpose that most people want a horse tk fill. Whilst it upsets me to think that an animal has to die despite having a decent quality of life , it would upset me even more if I learned that the horse had ended up in a slaughter house or neglected standing in mud somewhere.
If this was me and I couldn't afford to pay for the retirement livery ,.then I would definitely PTS. And I wouldn't feel guilty about it - a peaceful and dignified end is something that a lot or humans can only dream of.

I'm sorry that OP is in this position , it's never an easy decision to make.


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## Clodagh (14 October 2022)

I have always pts horses when it is convenient for me. I haven’t owned that many.
My first (as an adult) and bestest ever horse was kicked in the field, broken hock. PTS obviously.
2nd lame with various low key issues but she was sn unlikeable witch. PTS.
3rd homebred. Inoperable KS. PTS. He could have retired to a field but at 17.2 and 7 years old I decided not.
4th. A lovely horse, he retired to the field as his hocks were not up to work but the first time I saw him stand and watch the others hoon he was PTS. 
So I am brutal by many standards but you really can’t compare a horse to a dog. They cost a fortune to maintain and take up so much if your life. Just do your best by each one. Dead is better than suffering.


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## Chianti (14 October 2022)

paddy555 said:



			I agree with you as I did last night. However I think we may be in a minority of 2 ATM. Anyone care to join us? 

Click to expand...

I agree - which is why I thought it would be interesting to see how many hold the same view. We seem spilt into those who have to be able to ride if they have a horse and those who don't.


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## Gloi (14 October 2022)

It depends on the horse to me. There are some I'd have wanted to keep as a pet even at the expense of having nothing to ride and others I haven't been so attached to and would have pts if they weren't fit to be sold on.


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## honetpot (14 October 2022)

Specialist horse rescue centres also have horses PTS, there are few large horses in them, most are cheap to keep photogenic pony types.
  My friend had a warmblood, very well bred, ridable, but it was getting too much for her in several ways. Wouldn't sell it, so contacted a large animal charity that has a rehoming scheme, and it was advertised on their website. As part of this it was assessed by a vet, that it was fit to be rehomed, at the owners expense, it also had to had its vaccinations update, so they needed restarting.
The charity, eventually agreed to take it in to its rehoming centre, so the owner paid for transport, and travelled with it. On arrival, it was taken away, and they had to sign over ownership.
Two weeks later the rehoming ad is removed from the website and the now ex owner rings to see if has been rehomed, and is told it has been PTS, with little explanation why. You can imagine the grief caused.
  Another pony sanctuary PTS ponies that no longer perhaps look their best due to age, I was told this by a manager, because they have open days and they do not want trouble with the RSPCA.
I also know someone who worked in the horse section at Wood Green, and those that could not be used were given two weeks and then PTS, when they worked there.

  I have friends who wait to have their equine partners can not get up in the field, before they will get the vet out, to me this is madness. How can you leave something that you care for and often given you many years of service, get to a state where it can not move or defend itself.
  Mine go while they still have a 'social life', can roll scratch and eat, their last experience is often that. The ones that make me sad,is when they have had to be PTS due to illness, which has been short but catastrophic.
  I can afford and have the space to keep my old ponies, that is my choice, but it doesn't make me a better person than those that choose to have them PTS sooner. When I was ill if someone had come and PTS all the oldies and some that are not so old but equine misfits, because my husband couldn't cope, I would have been grateful.


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## Gallop_Away (14 October 2022)

I think it's also important to say not all horses suit retirement. Some thrive having a job to do. Not all horses have the right temperament to be field ornaments.


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## Lamehorses (14 October 2022)

May be a strange de-railing of this thread but. How many of you that disagree with pts a horse that is no longer useful to you eat meat? If its about the animals right to a long healthy life, why are cows etc any different? They are killed in the prime of their life for our enjoyment.
I have had a much loved retired horse, he served me well for nearly 2 decades, but was no longer up to hard work. I wanted him still around as he made me smile & looked sound, just not capable of hard work. I've also pts an 11 Yr old with several issues where a vet said he was capable of light work because I'd only owned him a short while & didn't want to pay for a horse that could easily be around another 10 years +.


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## Winters100 (14 October 2022)

Lamehorses said:



			May be a strange de-railing of this thread but. How many of you that disagree with pts a horse that is no longer useful to you eat meat? If its about the animals right to a long healthy life, why are cows etc any different? They are killed in the prime of their life for our enjoyment.
I have had a much loved retired horse, he served me well for nearly 2 decades, but was no longer up to hard work. I wanted him still around as he made me smile & looked sound, just not capable of hard work. I've also pts an 11 Yr old with several issues where a vet said he was capable of light work because I'd only owned him a short while & didn't want to pay for a horse that could easily be around another 10 years +.
		
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It is an interesting point. I don't eat meat, but I am not fully vegan, and I wear leather shoes etc, so yes there is an animal welfare issue.  For me though a farm animal is, rightly or wrongly depending upon your opinion, a commodity. My horses are not. Farm animals would be slaughtered for many things which we would treat in our horses, simply on the basis that the cost of treatment would exceed the value of the animal.  I totally accept tat there is suffering by farm animals, but my expectations for care of my horses, and indeed my other animals, is higher.


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## lme (14 October 2022)

I think ycbm hit the nail on the head - we do what makes us happiest / minimises our unhappiness. My horses are essentially pets / family members so of course I keep them into retirement, even if they retire at a young age. For someone whose main reason for having horses is to ride them,  a short retirement then PTS may be a better decision, especially if they can only afford one horse.


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## maya2008 (14 October 2022)

Winters100 said:



			It is an interesting point. I don't eat meat, but I am not fully vegan, and I wear leather shoes etc, so yes there is an animal welfare issue.  For me though a farm animal is, rightly or wrongly depending upon your opinion, a commodity. My horses are not. Farm animals would be slaughtered for many things which we would treat in our horses, simply on the basis that the cost of treatment would exceed the value of the animal.  I totally accept tat there is suffering by farm animals, but my expectations for care of my horses, and indeed my other animals, is higher.
		
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In many countries (Belgium, France…) horses ARE farm animals, and are raised and slaughtered for meat. When I was a child, in the farm behind my house, ponies were born, raised and shipped off to market just like any other farm animal. The meat section of the supermarket also had horse in it, next to beef, lamb etc.


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## Winters100 (14 October 2022)

maya2008 said:



			In many countries (Belgium, France…) horses ARE farm animals, and are raised and slaughtered for meat. When I was a child, in the farm behind my house, ponies were born, raised and shipped off to market just like any other farm animal. The meat section of the supermarket also had horse in it, next to beef, lamb etc.
		
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Yes, of course, but this does not influence the standards of care I want to provide for my own animals.  Where I live there are dogs used as site security for many businesses, if one was sick it would simply be replaced, but just because it happens does not make me feel that it would be acceptable for mine.


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## paddy555 (14 October 2022)

ycbm said:



			That's because you don't understand what I've written.

It has to be about what makes the owner feel the best way they can. Everything we each do in life is based on what makes us feel least bad at the time.

If it makes you feel good to keep retired horses alive,  be thankful, but don't assume everyone else would feel the same and for goodness sake please stop telling them (me) that they (I) should!
.
		
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I understand perfectly. 

It is not to my mind about what makes the owner feel good or bad. It is for my bike, my car or my other possessions but not for a living animal. For an animal, for me, it is a case of taking our own ego out of the situation to look at it clearly. 

Should we PTS an animal who is coping perfectly well for our convenience so we can have another or on the other side should we keep one alive that is clearly in pain and has little quality of life. 

It doesn't make me feel good or bad to retire horses. I just see it as my responsibility for an animal I chose to acquire. No different to my responsibility to looking after it well whilst it was ridden and even PTS when it was ridden if that was needed. 
No way would I pass them on for loan/companion/BB/ET etc to abdicate my responsibility and to make me feel good. 

I'm not telling anyone, or you, what they should do. It is a discussion group and I am giving my view. Some agree some don't. I don't expect anyone to change their mind because of what I post. 

I find your view that you don't retire horses full stop as difficult as you clearly find mine.


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## SEL (14 October 2022)

I had two non riddens on livery for ages. One was taken on as a companion and we've only recently lost him. He was probably the equine love of my life even though I can count on my fingers the number of times I rode him. 

I've got land now which does make it easier but even so I PTS one earlier this year that I know some disagreed with. There's a thread somewhere! I actually asked for help on how to safely PTS on that thread not whether I should, but some people still felt the need to express their views. I've never had second thoughts on that and it would have been totally irresponsible to pass him on (for humans involved and the pony himself)

I don't always agree with people's position on here but I respect their right to make the call that works for them. Even if I think a horse should obviously be PTS I'd always try and be tactful and supportive. If I don't agree with a PTS decision then I'll scroll on by!


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## ycbm (14 October 2022)

I understand perfectly.
		
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No, you don't,  or you could not write what you are writing.  For example:



paddy555 said:



			It doesn't make me feel good or bad to retire horses. I just see it as my responsibility for an animal I chose to acquire.
		
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And fulfilling that perceived responsibility makes you feel good about yourself.

If doing that did not make you feel the least bad,  then you wouldn't do it,  you'd do whatever would make you feel the least bad.

.


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## ycbm (14 October 2022)

paddy555 said:



			I find your view that you don't retire horses full stop as difficult as you clearly find mine.
		
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I don't find your view about your own horses difficult in the slightest, and i will always defend your right to free speech,  but your moralising about my choices for mine is frankly getting tedious.


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## Winters100 (14 October 2022)

paddy555 said:



			It doesn't make me feel good or bad to retire horses. I just see it as my responsibility for an animal I chose to acquire. No different to my responsibility to looking after it well whilst it was ridden and even PTS when it was ridden if that was needed.
.
		
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This is exactly how I feel.  In past years it has sometimes felt quite a hardship to keep 'broken' horses, especially when money was tight, but I have always viewed it as my duty.  This is not to say that I do not believe that financial issues and what care can realistically be given should not be considered, they absolutely should, and I would advise anyone who could not afford a good standard of care for an older or broken horse to seriously consider PTS, but I would not_ personally_ do this just to be able to afford a more useful horse or a nicer car.

Like you I do not expect everyone to feel the same way, and am not seeking to change opinions, but I would say that in general I feel that today there is a lot of emphasis on 'what I want' rather than 'what is my duty', and I do not mean just in relation to animals.


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## ycbm (14 October 2022)

Winters100 said:



			that today there is a lot of emphasis on 'what I want' rather than 'what is my duty', and I do not mean just in relation to animals.
		
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I think there is some truth in that but as regards horses there are more horses being retired and fewer PTS when they can no longer be ridden than ever there were when I first bought a horse.

Retirement then was primarily done by people with land of their own and plenty of excess money. It was a long time, decades, into horse ownership before I ever heard anyone state the opinion that someone who could not afford an additional horse should stop riding a horse of their own until the end of the natural lifespan of the  horse they "should" give a retirement.
.


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## Flame_ (14 October 2022)

The meat animal thing is an interesting comparison. I feel happier for the animals that get to live for years, chilling in herds producing young than for the ones destined to get to maturity then go off to slaughter, I think they are the unluckier by birth of the two groups, but I'm OK with the system. I'm vegetarian, not through principle but through squemishness about consuming a dead thing. I think that's in line with being OK with dead horses but preferring live ones where a suitable job and home can work for them (even if that's retired pet, great).


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## honetpot (14 October 2022)

Winters100 said:



			Like you I do not expect everyone to feel the same way, and am not seeking to change opinions, but I would say that in general I feel that today there is a lot of emphasis on 'what I want' rather than 'what is my duty', and I do not mean just in relation to animals.
		
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  What is my duty? Some people will see that their duty is keeping an animal quality of life is reduced so much that they are staring at four walls 24/7, or herd excluded for their 'welfare', where that has morphed into, what I want, under the cover of duty. 
 When I had my first elderly horse, which at the time I had owned nine years, I would have a vets review, where all we talked about was the horses physical condition candidly. Now there seems to be no wish unless you are really blunt, for veterinary professionals to be objective, whether this is because they have their professional reputation or income to protect, who wants a Twitter storm, but death is inevitable, and it's the way humans and animals get to that natural conclusion that is important. 
  As a society we have become detached from the process of death, but how we and animals die should be discussed, parking death descisions can cause suffering. Money is always a factor in death, it's just in human welfare it's often hidden.
https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(21)02314-X/fulltext


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## paddy555 (14 October 2022)

ycbm said:



			No, you don't,  or you could not write what you are writing.  For example:



And fulfilling that perceived responsibility makes you feel good about yourself.

If doing that did not make you feel the least bad,  then you wouldn't do it,  you'd do whatever would make you feel the least bad.

.
		
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no it doesn't make me feel good or bad. It makes me feel nothing at all because it is not something I even consider or give any thought to. I got my first horse in 1973, he was PTS at 31 and it never occurred to me to do anything else. 
I didn't feel sad or I would be letting him down if I PTS earlier, I didn't feel  morally superior for keeping him. Just pleased he was able to have his full lifespan. 

If you want to put feelings to it then I see it exactly as I would a dog. I have done everything possible to give it as long and happy life as possible. You can call that what  you will. If doing that you think would make me feel good then fine by me. I think there are lot like me, especially with dogs, so nothing unusual. Just normal really. If you call that making them or me feel good then I see nothing wrong with it. 

I'm not moralising about your choices but  I do wonder if I have struck a bit of a chord. Everyone else seems able to either agree and like my comments or just ignore me.


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## paddy555 (14 October 2022)

honetpot said:



			What is my duty? Some people will see that their duty is keeping an animal quality of life is reduced so much that they are staring at four walls 24/7, or herd excluded for their 'welfare', where that has morphed into, what I want, under the cover of duty.
		
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well I haven't said that in fact I said I don't do box rest, nor do I herd exclude, nor do I keep them with the reduced quality of life you refer to. I haven't noticed that people who have agreed with me have said they do that. I think most of us realise that a lot of factors and care is involved and we have to keep assessing the horse to consider when PTS becomes necessary. 

asking "what is my duty" just seems to be an attempt to discredit people who say they retire their horses.


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## Winters100 (14 October 2022)

honetpot said:



			What is my duty? Some people will see that their duty is keeping an animal quality of life is reduced so much that they are staring at four walls 24/7, or herd excluded for their 'welfare', where that has morphed into, what I want, under the cover of duty.

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(21)02314-X/fulltext

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I appreciate that some may keep their animals, horses / dogs or any others, longer than is in the best interests of the animal itself, but I have not seen anyone here suggesting that this is acceptable.  All that some of us are saying is that while an animal can live a quality and enjoyable life, and where this can realistically be provided by the owner, it is in the best interests of the animal to be afforded such a life rather than being PTS.  This seems obvious to me.


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## DabDab (14 October 2022)

Winters100 said:



			I appreciate that some may keep their animals, horses / dogs or any others, longer than is in the best interests of the animal itself, but I have not seen anyone here suggesting that this is acceptable.  All that some of us are saying is that while an animal can live a quality and enjoyable life, and where this can realistically be provided by the owner, it is in the best interests of the animal to be afforded such a life rather than being PTS.  This seems obvious to me.
		
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Why is it in the best interest of the animal though?


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## Winters100 (14 October 2022)

DabDab said:



			Why is it in the best interest of the animal though?
		
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Are you questioning whether a long and good quality life is better than a short one?  I would have thought that it is obvious, because they are living beings who are capable of enjoying things and being happy.  It seems to me that these sort of questions imply that our animals are simply 'things' and not capable of appreciating the good things in their lives.


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## cauda equina (14 October 2022)

And people say 'But the horse doesn't know anything about it' 
 I wouldn't know anything about it if someone shot me in the head while I wasn't looking but I very much hope that doesn't happen


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## Cortez (14 October 2022)

cauda equina said:



			And people say 'But the horse doesn't know anything about it'
I wouldn't know anything about it if someone shot me in the head while I wasn't looking but I very much hope that doesn't happen
		
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True....


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## ycbm (14 October 2022)

Winters100 said:



			Are you questioning whether a long and good quality life is better than a short one?  I would have thought that it is obvious, because they are living beings who are capable of enjoying things and being happy.  It seems to me that these sort of questions imply that our animals are simply 'things' and not capable of appreciating the good things in their lives.
		
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That's not what it implies,  it's what I was hearking back to earlier about people's own attitude to life and death.

If an animal cannot look forward to anything in the future, and cannot meaningfully mentally rehearse anything which happened to it in the past,  then what is inherently "better" for an animal about being alive than being dead?

Atheists,  as I am,  tend not to subscribe to the view that life in itself has some inherent value.
.


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## ycbm (14 October 2022)

cauda equina said:



			And people say 'But the horse doesn't know anything about it'
I wouldn't know anything about it if someone shot me in the head while I wasn't looking but I very much hope that doesn't happen
		
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But you have the capacity to hope it won't happen,  animals don't. 



Spoiler: reference to death, may trigger



And there are days in many people's lives where they wouldn't try and dissuade that person with the gun.


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## DabDab (14 October 2022)

Winters100 said:



			Are you questioning whether a long and good quality life is better than a short one?  I would have thought that it is obvious, because they are living beings who are capable of enjoying things and being happy.  It seems to me that these sort of questions imply that our animals are simply 'things' and not capable of appreciating the good things in their lives.
		
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Of course it doesn't imply that 

A good quality of life is a valuable thing, I'm just not sure that it matters to the animal itself whether that life is long or short according to some objective measure. My own ability to feel happy and enjoy things today is not particularly related to the quantity of life I have lived so far, nor the quantity of life I might have left to live. And I'm a human with some notion of concepts like longevity and retirement, unlike a horse.

I love my horses dearly and will keep them alive as long as possible without causing them undue suffering, irrelevant of whether I can ride them and I would contemplate significant financial hardship to do it. But I am under no illusion that that is primarily for my benefit.


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## Winters100 (14 October 2022)

ycbm said:



			But you have the capacity to hope it won't happen,  animals don't.
		
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It is true that animals in general 'live in the moment', as do babies and small children, but just because they cannot plan their lives in advance, or do not fear death, does not mean that a long quality life is of no value.


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## cauda equina (14 October 2022)

ycbm said:



			But you have the capacity to hope it won't happen,  animals don't.



Spoiler: reference to death, may trigger



And there are days in many people's lives where they wouldn't try and dissuade that person with the gun.




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But on the whole animals do their damndest to stay alive


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## ycbm (14 October 2022)

cauda equina said:



			But on the whole animals do their damndest to stay alive
		
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Yup,  they are driven by nature to pass on their DNA, often against their own individual best interests.
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## Peglo (14 October 2022)

cauda equina said:



			But on the whole animals do their damndest to stay alive
		
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i was actually just going to say this for pure interest on peoples views.

we know horses are stoic so that they don’t get eaten or abandoned etc so would that not signal they don’t want to die? Does most animals not fight for life?


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## honetpot (14 October 2022)

Winters100 said:



			I appreciate that some may keep their animals, horses / dogs or any others, longer than is in the best interests of the animal itself, but I have not seen anyone here suggesting that this is acceptable.  All that some of us are saying is that while an animal can live a quality and enjoyable life, and where this can realistically be provided by the owner, it is in the best interests of the animal to be afforded such a life rather than being PTS.  This seems obvious to me.
		
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  When you get a background view on here and in other places which is often expressed to owners  even thinking of having to their animal PTS, of disapproval, and down right nastiness, it blocks objective open discussion of the subject. It forms peer pressure where, people can be 'othered' and made to feel they have failed,because they have even thought about the option, for what ever reason.
  When an owner for is thinking they will be unable to care for a horse properly, euthanasia is not a bad choice, for some people it may be the only viable choice, and I only wish that people would be realistic about the choices people have. 
  The problems that I see in welfare issues are that people are completely unable to assess what the best interests of the animal are, there is no objective assessment from them or a veterinary professional.


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## HashRouge (14 October 2022)

paddy555 said:



			no it doesn't make me feel good or bad. It makes me feel nothing at all because it is not something I even consider or give any thought to. I got my first horse in 1973, he was PTS at 31 and it never occurred to me to do anything else.
I didn't feel sad or I would be letting him down if I PTS earlier, I didn't feel  morally superior for keeping him. Just pleased he was able to have his full lifespan.

If you want to put feelings to it then I see it exactly as I would a dog. I have done everything possible to give it as long and happy life as possible. You can call that what  you will. If doing that you think would make me feel good then fine by me. I think there are lot like me, especially with dogs, so nothing unusual. Just normal really. If you call that making them or me feel good then I see nothing wrong with it.

I'm not moralising about your choices but  I do wonder if I have struck a bit of a chord. Everyone else seems able to either agree and like my comments or just ignore me.
		
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For what it's worth, I completely agree with everything you've posted on this thread and I don't think you have come across as being judgemental about other posters or their choices.


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## Winters100 (14 October 2022)

honetpot said:



			When an owner for is thinking they will be unable to care for a horse properly, euthanasia is not a bad choice, for some people it may be the only viable choice, and I only wish that people would be realistic about the choices people have.
  The problems that I see in welfare issues are that people are completely unable to assess what the best interests of the animal are, there is no objective assessment from them or a veterinary professional.
		
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I agree 100% that the ability of the owner to provide proper care is a major factor, and if this is not possible then PTS is the best option for many horses.  Maybe I missed it but I didn't notice anyone here suggesting otherwise.

Regarding people's ability to accurately determine when is the best time to PTS from the point of view of animal welfare it is of course difficult, and relies upon careful judgement of owners and vets.  But my understanding of this discussion is that it does not concern animals in pain, but it is rather whether it is the best interests of an animal which is capable of having a good quality of life to be PTS. In my opinion it is not.


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## paddy555 (14 October 2022)

HashRouge said:



			For what it's worth, I completely agree with everything you've posted on this thread and I don't think you have come across as being judgemental about other posters or their choices.
		
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actually HR it's worth a lot so thanks for posting that.


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## honetpot (14 October 2022)

Winters100 said:



			I agree 100% that the ability of the owner to provide proper care is a major factor, and if this is not possible then PTS is the best option for many horses.  Maybe I missed it but I didn't notice anyone here suggesting otherwise.

Regarding people's ability to accurately determine when is the best time to PTS from the point of view of animal welfare it is of course difficult, and relies upon careful judgement of owners and vets.  But my understanding of this discussion is that it does not concern animals in pain, but it is rather whether it is the best interests of an animal which is capable of having a good quality of life to be PTS. In my opinion it is not.
		
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If you can not afford , have the time or have the mental capacity to cope with its needs daily,it is. Most welfare issues are caused by,'lets think about that tomorrow', because people either have other priorities or just not the mental capacity to see issues developing. How many people do see post on FB, I need a hay delivery tomorrow, I have run out? If you have been on livery yards, even supposedly caring owners leave horses shut in for days, with minimal beds standing in poop.
  I work six months in advance, I am planning for spring now, some people only plan from month to month if that, there is not much time for careful judgement.


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## stangs (14 October 2022)

ycbm said:



			Yup,  they are driven by nature to pass on their DNA, often against their own individual best interests.
.
		
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Who are we to decide what's in their best interests?


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## YorksG (14 October 2022)

stangs said:



			Who are we to decide what's in their best interests?
		
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Surely anyone who ownes any animal intends to keep them in their best interests, even if they can't manage that in the actualité


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## Winters100 (14 October 2022)

honetpot said:



			If you can not afford , have the time or have the mental capacity to cope with its needs daily,it is. Most welfare issues are caused by,'lets think about that tomorrow', because people either have other priorities or just not the mental capacity to see issues developing. How many people do see post on FB, I need a hay delivery tomorrow, I have run out? If you have been on livery yards, even supposedly caring owners leave horses shut in for days, with minimal beds standing in poop.
  I work six months in advance, I am planning for spring now, some people only plan from month to month if that, there is not much time for careful judgement.
		
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Yes, but as everyone has said this discussion is not centered around horses being PTS because owners are unable to keep them well, either because of a medical condition of the horse, because of financial constraints, or any other reasons.  It is simply about it is in the best interests of the_ horse _to be PTS only because it cannot be ridden and the owner would like to replace it with a more useful horse.  If you do not have the mental capacity to look after a retired horse I doubt very much that you would manage a ridden one.

I do not question that if a horse cannot enjoy a quality life, or if an owner is simply unable to provide for its needs, then PTS may be the best option, but I do not agree that it is in their best interests to be PTS simply because they are unable to be of use in helping the owner achieve their ridden goals.


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## Winters100 (14 October 2022)

ycbm said:



			If an animal cannot look forward to anything in the future, and cannot meaningfully mentally rehearse anything which happened to it in the past,  then what is inherently "better" for an animal about being alive than being dead?

.
		
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I suppose what is better is that the horse can enjoy tomorrow, even if it does not make a plan to do so, just the same as a human child.


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## JoannaC (14 October 2022)

I'd far rather PTS than pass on to an uncertain future.  Of course, there are lots of good homes out there which we don't hear about because it's not that interesting so it's the bad homes that always gets talked about.  I wouldn't want to take the risk unless I knew the person very well.  I recently took on a 28 year old pony but only because I used to own him so felt I had a responsibility for him.  I've loved having him back but he is costing me a fortune and takes up a lot of time as needs feeding little and often.  I wouldn't feel the same about a pony I didn't already have a relationship with.  I also have an 18 year old retired mare who hasn't been right since she had a field accident at 8, I would not pass her on if my circs changed and she would be pts as she could easily be passed on as sound but after a few weeks in work she becomes explosive and makes it clear she doesn't want to be ridden.


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## ycbm (14 October 2022)

stangs said:



			Who are we to decide what's in their best interests?
		
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Isn't that our fundamental duty to them? 
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## Ali27 (14 October 2022)

I think that if you have the resources to provide a horse which is field sound a happy retirement then that’s brilliant! But I personally could never sell a horse with issues and would only loan to someone I knew! PTS is then the most responsible thing to do! My old mare had 4 years happily retired in field after a tendon injury but then tore another SFDT in a different leg so I chose to PTS as at the age of 20 did not want to put her through box rest again. Horses know no tomorrow and it’s every owner’s responsibility to do the right thing!


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## paddy555 (14 October 2022)

Ali27 said:



			! My old mare had 4 years happily retired in field after a tendon injury but then tore another SFDT in a different leg so I chose to PTS as at the age of 20 did not want to put her through box rest again. Horses know no tomorrow and it’s every owner’s responsibility to do the right thing!
		
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I don't think anyone could possibly disagree that you did absolutely the right thing for her. You gave her the best you could and ended it when things got too bad for her. That is all any of us can do for them.


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## EllenJay (14 October 2022)

paddy555 said:



			I understand perfectly.

It is not to my mind about what makes the owner feel good or bad. It is for my bike, my car or my other possessions but not for a living animal. For an animal, for me, it is a case of taking our own ego out of the situation to look at it clearly.

Should we PTS an animal who is coping perfectly well for our convenience so we can have another or on the other side should we keep one alive that is clearly in pain and has little quality of life.

It doesn't make me feel good or bad to retire horses. I just see it as my responsibility for an animal I chose to acquire. No different to my responsibility to looking after it well whilst it was ridden and even PTS when it was ridden if that was needed.
No way would I pass them on for loan/companion/BB/ET etc to abdicate my responsibility and to make me feel good.

I'm not telling anyone, or you, what they should do. It is a discussion group and I am giving my view. Some agree some don't. I don't expect anyone to change their mind because of what I post.

I find your view that you don't retire horses full stop as difficult as you clearly find mine.
		
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I don’t think you do understand.  However you want to package life, us humans do what makes us feel better. Now that could be putting to sleep a young ill horse - our thinking - he was in pain, keeping an old horse alive, when others would have said it was suffering - ‘he happy in his field’ etc, etc.

All of our animals are subjected to what makes us feel good. The majority of us are doing it for the benefit of the animal, but ultimately we do it for us.


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## Winters100 (14 October 2022)

EllenJay said:



			I don’t think you do understand.  However you want to package life, us humans do what makes us feel better. Now that could be putting to sleep a young ill horse - our thinking - he was in pain, keeping an old horse alive, when others would have said it was suffering - ‘he happy in his field’ etc, etc.

All of our animals are subjected to what makes us feel good. The majority of us are doing it for the benefit of the animal, but ultimately we do it for us.
		
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But this thinking is flawed, because you could apply it to anything. Does it make me feel better to give proper care to my children? Yes. Does it make me feel good to help my neighbors? Again yes. Would I feel bad if I beat my children? Yes.  When you give to or volunteer for a charity are you ultimately doing it for yourself? Perhaps yes, but it does not take away from the fact that you are doing good.

Just because a certain course of action makes us feel happy that we have behaved properly does not make it an inherently selfish thing.

The difference is that here we are discussing whether it is _in the best interests of the horse _to be PTS just because it can not help us to achieve our ridden goals, regardless that it could have a comfortable life, and that the owner could provide proper care as long as they did not decide to replace it with a more useful horse.

And to those who say that the fact that the horse cannot remember yesterday or plan for tomorrow makes a difference in this case, I would have to ask if it is only having a good memory and an ability to plan, which makes our lives worth living?


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## paddy555 (14 October 2022)

EllenJay said:



			All of our animals are subjected to what makes us feel good. The majority of us are doing it for the benefit of the animal, but ultimately we do it for us.
		
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not sure you can have both. For eg. The benefit of the animal, horse, advised by vet shouldn't be ridden any longer, however perfectly happy horse, can live in it's field with no problem. Per vet no reason medically why it can't be retired. Horse pretty calm reasonable horse. Would adapt well to the retirement regime. 

For us we want to ride, in fact we demand to ride. We are not happy to go to the riding school we want our own horse. The only way to achieve that is to get rid of the first horse. Starting to see a conflict of interests between what's possible for the horse and our demands. 
So yes, I do totally understand. Difficulty I have is with shooting the first horse  with the only justification being I demand another.


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## honetpot (14 October 2022)

JoannaC said:



			I'd far rather PTS than pass on to an uncertain future.  Of course, there are lots of good homes out there which we don't hear about because it's not that interesting so it's the bad homes that always gets talked about.  I wouldn't want to take the risk unless I knew the person very well.  I recently took on a 28 year old pony but only because I used to own him so felt I had a responsibility for him.  I've loved having him back but he is costing me a fortune and takes up a lot of time as needs feeding little and often.  I wouldn't feel the same about a pony I didn't already have a relationship with.  I also have an 18 year old retired mare who hasn't been right since she had a field accident at 8, I would not pass her on if my circs changed and she would be pts as she could easily be passed on as sound but after a few weeks in work she becomes explosive and makes it clear she doesn't want to be ridden.
		
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 One of my oldies I sold as a three year old, an expensive pony, and had a very successful competition history and then disappeared. Before I bought him back he had three homes, in just under two years. I met one of the sellers, she was selling him because her family circumstances had changed, and she needed the time and money, mother with dementia. Thought she had found the perfect home, it lasted just over three weeks, so he got moved on, to someone who I think kept him for the summer, may have then been with a dealer, before he moved again further north.
  I only know this because I followed FB and Preloved. In the end the last time he was advertised I could not bear it,and said 'what is the least you will take for him', and I will send a box this week COC. The transporter who collected him said the seller could not wait to get rid of him.
  That is the reality of people selling horses, a lot just to get rid as fast of possible, they will tell themselves a story to rationalise the sale, and pass what they see as a problem on. I do not think they are bad people, just human. 
What I find so sad is this old man, he can have a buck in him but can be ridden, looks half his twenty plus years, is cheap to keep, and has no real health issues. He is a very pretty pony, with a recorded competition record, has beautiful manners, but he is not for a novice, if I could not keep him he would be PTS, and sleep at night.
  There are just not enough knowledgable homes for animals that can not be kept or ridden by a novice owner, or people with limited finances and not acknowledging this is living in fairy land.


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## paddy555 (14 October 2022)

honetpot said:



			One of my oldies I sold as a three year old, an expensive pony, and had a very successful competition history and then disappeared. Before I bought him back he had three homes, in just under two years. I met one of the sellers, she was selling him because her family circumstances had changed, and she needed the time and money, mother with dementia. Thought she had found the perfect home, it lasted just over three weeks, so he got moved on, to someone who I think kept him for the summer, may have then been with a dealer, before he moved again further north.
  I only know this because I followed FB and Preloved. In the end the last time he was advertised I could not bear it,and said 'what is the least you will take for him', and I will send a box this week COC. The transporter who collected him said the seller could not wait to get rid of him.
  That is the reality of people selling horses, a lot just to get rid as fast of possible, they will tell themselves a story to rationalise the sale, and pass what they see as a problem on. I do not think they are bad people, just human.
What I find so sad is this old man, he can have a buck in him but can be ridden, looks half his twenty plus years, is cheap to keep, and has no real health issues. He is a very pretty pony, with a recorded competition record, has beautiful manners, but he is not for a novice, if I could not keep him he would be PTS, and sleep at night.
  There are just not enough knowledgable homes for animals that can not be kept or ridden by a novice owner, or people with limited finances and not acknowledging this is living in fairy land.
		
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I'm a bit lost here. I think most are aware that if you sell a horse then you no longer have control over it and it could end up anywhere. I don't see that is the issue here. I thought we were talking about retiring horses which could go on to have a good retirement as opposed to PTS to enable their owner to have a new horse. 

I have never sold, loaned or passed on a horse. I realise as you have posted that anything could happen to it. I have however retired many over the years as I know they can have a nice life although I may have to be patient before I can have another riding horse.


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## DabDab (14 October 2022)

paddy555 said:



			not sure you can have both. For eg. The benefit of the animal, horse, advised by vet shouldn't be ridden any longer, however perfectly happy horse, can live in it's field with no problem. Per vet no reason medically why it can't be retired. Horse pretty calm reasonable horse. Would adapt well to the retirement regime.

For us we want to ride, in fact we demand to ride. We are not happy to go to the riding school we want our own horse. The only way to achieve that is to get rid of the first horse. Starting to see a conflict of interests between what's possible for the horse and our demands.
So yes, I do totally understand. Difficulty I have is with shooting the first horse  with the only justification being I demand another.
		
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But that is just your moral value judgement though. Nobody is saying that making that value judgement is wrong, in fact I think most people would make the same. The idea of putting down one horse just so that I could get another horrifies me, but I understand that that is purely my human value judgement and is hugely influenced by human society, human norms, human morality....

Assuming that the horse in question is not routinely suffering from pain then the human reason why its life is brought to an end makes no practical difference to the horse.


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## ycbm (14 October 2022)

Winters100 said:



			But this thinking is flawed, because you could apply it to anything.
		
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It's not flawed because it's does apply to every single action we take.
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## ycbm (14 October 2022)

Winters100 said:



			Just because a certain course of action makes us feel happy that we have behaved properly does not make it an inherently selfish thing.
		
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You are the only person who has used the word selfish about this psychological fact.
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## Winters100 (14 October 2022)

ycbm said:



			It's not flawed because it's does apply to every single action we take.
.
		
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Exactly. Behaving in accordance with our own moral compass makes us happier.  This is the whole point, but it does not mean that we take these actions _only_ in order to feel such happiness, because often these actions might also involve some other inconvenience or hardship.  It is simply not a valid argument that people behave according to their morals only in order to feel happy about themselves, our ability to feel empathy and to think of others is also very important.


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## ycbm (14 October 2022)

Winters100 said:



			Exactly. Behaving in accordance with our own moral compass makes us happier.  This is the whole point, but it does not mean that we take these actions _only_ in order to feel such happiness, because often these actions might also involve some other inconvenience or hardship.  It is simply not a valid argument that people behave according to their morals only in order to feel happy about themselves.
		
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I said "happy in their own skin" not "happy about themselves" and I think there's a very big difference.  You behave according to your moral compass because it would make you feel too uncomfortable to do otherwise.

That's fine,  but not everyone shares your view of what is the a correct moral compass and there can be more than one. 
.


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## honetpot (14 October 2022)

paddy555 said:



			I'm a bit lost here. I think most are aware that if you sell a horse then you no longer have control over it and it could end up anywhere. I don't see that is the issue here. I thought we were talking about retiring horses which could go on to have a good retirement as opposed to PTS to enable their owner to have a new horse.

I have never sold, loaned or passed on a horse. I realise as you have posted that anything could happen to it. I have however retired many over the years as I know they can have a nice life although I may have to be patient before I can have another riding horse.
		
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This pony was on the spiral downwards, that is what happens when owners are desperate to solve and issue, be it handling, health or financial. The easy thing is to move it on. If you look at 'best interests', its the least worse possible outcome, and sometimes that is PTS, not the uncertainty of a tenuous or neglected life.
  My history is as a young teenager I rode for a low end dealer, so I have seen so many animals that we would have for a few weeks to assess, and then they would go for meat, because they were not saleable, this was when there was a good horse meat trade.
   You are making a judgement that people who retire their horses care more than the people who have them PTS, having seen some very neglected retired animals, I do not think that is the case. If you can not keep an unsaleable animal, what do you do?


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## nagblagger (14 October 2022)

[QUOTE="Barton Bounty, post:]You obviously have a very big heart ❤️[/QUOTE]

Thank you, but no, just stupid and a sucker for a sob story in my younger years.
However now i am much harder - no more horses and if they start needing a lot of veterinary intervention/care they will be pts. 8 of them are in their 20s.


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## sky1000 (14 October 2022)

I don't really think, in the end, that there is much of a dispute here.  Most people agree that no-one should pass on an unrideable horse that could be sold on to cause damage to people and misery to the horse.  I have read on here  horse welfare officers at markets breaking their hearts over old horses waiting to be sold looking up suddenly and hopefully at girls  who they thought might have come to save them.  That has certainly stayed with me.  Whether retire or pts, I think that is the general view.


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## BBP (14 October 2022)

honetpot said:



			This pony was on the spiral downwards, that is what happens when owners are desperate to solve and issue, be it handling, health or financial. The easy thing is to move it on. If you look at 'best interests', its the least worse possible outcome, and sometimes that is PTS, not the uncertainty of a tenuous or neglected life.
  My history is as a young teenager I rode for a low end dealer, so I have seen so many animals that we would have for a few weeks to assess, and then they would go for meat, because they were not saleable, this was when there was a good horse meat trade.
   You are making a judgement that people who retire their horses care more than the people who have them PTS, having seen some very neglected retired animals, I do not think that is the case. If you can not keep an unsaleable animal, what do you do?
		
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As far as I have seen it having read the whole thread, the only judgement Paddy555 and similar have made is that they feel it is wrong to put to sleep a horse purely for the reason of getting another one to ride. I can’t see that they have said it is wrong to put a horse to sleep if the other options are neglect, tiny postage stamp paddocks, isolation, financial issues etc. Just the replacement of an unrideable with a rideable horse. That’s all I have picked up anyway. They have accepted that others think differently. Just as YCBM etc have expressed that they see no problem with having one put to sleep for a variety of justifiable reasons and have accepted that others think differently. To me it is clear that neither ‘side’ are the sort of people that will knowingly allow an animal to suffer.

This thread has been an interesting and thought provoking read.

I wasn’t going to add my own anecdote, because I know no one really gives a flying fig about it, but it plays on my mind somewhat. I have a horse that has had some chronic health issues that come and go. I can be fairly certain that YCBM (sorry to use your name, but I think you may have commented on it in that past so stuck in my mind, it certainly isn’t meant as a criticism in any way) and similar people would have had him put to sleep multiple times before now had he been theirs. And Paddy555 may be more like me and still have him. And I genuinely don’t know who would be right. YCBMs and other similar posters approach would have saved him from periods where he was certainly in pain. He wouldn’t have known anything about it. Financially and stress wise I would have been better off. At that point in time it may have been in his best interests. But how was I to know if that pain was fleeting or if he was forever to feel bad? At what point do I decide? How hard do I try?

Four weeks ago I was sitting on the edge of having him put to sleep. He isn’t ridden, he owes me nothing, I didn’t want him to suffer. But I kept telling myself ‘I’ll just try this first’. And now he is bouncing around, all his eye tension is gone, the hard nostril, the tight lip and chin, he has a bright, open, shiny eye, he is absolutely full of himself and back to all of his happy behaviours that had vanished for part of the summer. So I don’t think I would have been wrong to have done it back then, but I don’t think I’m wrong to still have him here with me now based on how he is right now. What I do know is that an unridden horse with heath issues he will never leave me.


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## DabDab (15 October 2022)

The point being made throughout this thread though is that pts of an horse (or any animal) is an individual decision that someone makes according to their own morals.

The act of PTS is not a welfare issue for a horse, so putting any kind of universal (rather than individual) moral judgement on when and why someone makes the decision to PTS is a)illogical and b)quite unhelpful. The moment that you say something along the lines of "_no judgement if you PTS in all these circumstances, but in this one circumstance it's <cold/treating the horse as a machine/insert any other judgement statement>" _then you are by definition passing judgement on the morals of someone else, and that can be a really slippery slope.

I very much doubt that I would make the same PTS decisions as ycbm but that doesn't mean that I think she's cruel, or that my choices are 'better' than hers for the horse involved. In fact I am fairly certain that there would be zero judgment either way if we were on a yard together. Whereas there are certainly some on this thread that I would dread having around if I was having to make that call for one of mine.


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## Barton Bounty (15 October 2022)

BBP said:



			As far as I have seen it having read the whole thread, the only judgement Paddy555 and similar have made is that they feel it is wrong to put to sleep a horse purely for the reason of getting another one to ride. I can’t see that they have said it is wrong to put a horse to sleep if the other options are neglect, tiny postage stamp paddocks, isolation, financial issues etc. Just the replacement of an unrideable with a rideable horse. That’s all I have picked up anyway. They have accepted that others think differently. Just as YCBM etc have expressed that they see no problem with having one put to sleep for a variety of justifiable reasons and have accepted that others think differently. To me it is clear that neither ‘side’ are the sort of people that will knowingly allow an animal to suffer.

This thread has been an interesting and thought provoking read.

I wasn’t going to add my own anecdote, because I know no one really gives a flying fig about it, but it plays on my mind somewhat. I have a horse that has had some chronic health issues that come and go. I can be fairly certain that YCBM (sorry to use your name, but I think you may have commented on it in that past so stuck in my mind, it certainly isn’t meant as a criticism in any way) and similar people would have had him put to sleep multiple times before now had he been theirs. And Paddy555 may be more like me and still have him. And I genuinely don’t know who would be right. YCBMs and other similar posters approach would have saved him from periods where he was certainly in pain. He wouldn’t have known anything about it. Financially and stress wise I would have been better off. At that point in time it may have been in his best interests. But how was I to know if that pain was fleeting or if he was forever to feel bad? At what point do I decide? How hard do I try?

Four weeks ago I was sitting on the edge of having him put to sleep. He isn’t ridden, he owes me nothing, I didn’t want him to suffer. But I kept telling myself ‘I’ll just try this first’. And now he is bouncing around, all his eye tension is gone, the hard nostril, the tight lip and chin, he has a bright, open, shiny eye, he is absolutely full of himself and back to all of his happy behaviours that had vanished for part of the summer. So I don’t think I would have been wrong to have done it back then, but I don’t think I’m wrong to still have him here with me now based on how he is right now. What I do know is that an unridden horse with heath issues he will never leave me.
		
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Your totally right I think most are in agreement that it shouldn’t be passed on and pts if the animal cannot be helped.  It’s definitely a tricky situation to be in.


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## honetpot (15 October 2022)

BBP said:



			As far as I have seen it having read the whole thread, the only judgement Paddy555 and similar have made is that they feel it is wrong to put to sleep a horse purely for the reason of getting another one to ride. I can’t see that they have said it is wrong to put a horse to sleep if the other options are neglect, tiny postage stamp paddocks, isolation, financial issues etc. Just the replacement of an unrideable with a rideable horse. That’s all I have picked up anyway. They have accepted that others think differently. Just as YCBM etc have expressed that they see no problem with having one put to sleep for a variety of justifiable reasons and have accepted that others think differently. To me it is clear that neither ‘side’ are the sort of people that will knowingly allow an animal to suffer.

This thread has been an interesting and thought provoking read.

I wasn’t going to add my own anecdote, because I know no one really gives a flying fig about it, but it plays on my mind somewhat. I have a horse that has had some chronic health issues that come and go. I can be fairly certain that YCBM (sorry to use your name, but I think you may have commented on it in that past so stuck in my mind, it certainly isn’t meant as a criticism in any way) and similar people would have had him put to sleep multiple times before now had he been theirs. And Paddy555 may be more like me and still have him. And I genuinely don’t know who would be right. YCBMs and other similar posters approach would have saved him from periods where he was certainly in pain. He wouldn’t have known anything about it. Financially and stress wise I would have been better off. At that point in time it may have been in his best interests. But how was I to know if that pain was fleeting or if he was forever to feel bad? At what point do I decide? How hard do I try?

Four weeks ago I was sitting on the edge of having him put to sleep. He isn’t ridden, he owes me nothing, I didn’t want him to suffer. But I kept telling myself ‘I’ll just try this first’. And now he is bouncing around, all his eye tension is gone, the hard nostril, the tight lip and chin, he has a bright, open, shiny eye, he is absolutely full of himself and back to all of his happy behaviours that had vanished for part of the summer. So I don’t think I would have been wrong to have done it back then, but I don’t think I’m wrong to still have him here with me now based on how he is right now. What I do know is that an unridden horse with heath issues he will never leave me.
		
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Completely true for you, but if you haven't got,
time, money, knowledge, or the mental capacity or rigour to care for an animal that you have responsibility for that is going to be difficult to find a knowledgable home for, even in good economic times, PTS is the perhaps the least worst option. You can love your old pony, but be the worst horse keeper in terms of managing it.
  I have owned and ridden enough cast off equines, to know the ones that the average DIY livery owner can cope with. The owners are often short of time, and are looking for something that has no management issues, never mind being able to ride it.
I have cows, they have an economic value even when they old, or culled, you get money for their meat. If every milking cow was kept after it became uneconomic to milk it we would be over run with cows. To have a horse is euthanised it costs the owner money, so that is often a barrier that people have to face, even if they think that is the right option for them. It is not only an emotional but financial hit.
My thirty year old pony was PTS with colic three weeks ago, my now oldest is twenty three, I am not anti keeping your retired horse, but I do think people have to be realistic about the options for other people and their circumstances, and be less judgemental, and understand how difficult that decision can be.


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## paddy555 (15 October 2022)

honetpot said:



			Completely true for you, but if you haven't got,
time, money, knowledge, or the mental capacity or rigour to care for an animal that you have responsibility for that is going to be difficult to find a knowledgable home for, even in good economic times, PTS is the perhaps the least worst option. You can love your old pony, but be the worst horse keeper in terms of managing it.
		
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surely the point that was being discussed was PTS a horse perfectly suitable to retire to replace it with a riding horse. In that case per line 2 above if you can't care for the first horse you are not going to be able to care for the 2nd. 

There are a lot of horses poorly looked after. A lot very badly looked after. I know, I have taken them on. However suggesting, as I have done and some others, that we keep horses and retire them and responsibly look after them is not going to change that situation. They are 2 separate issues.


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## Dexter (15 October 2022)

sky1000 said:



			I don't really think, in the end, that there is much of a dispute here.  Most people agree that no-one should pass on an unrideable horse that could be sold on to cause damage to people and misery to the horse.
		
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the first few pages were people suggesting exactly that though, its only as the discussion has gone on that its morphed into a slightly different discussion. And the amount of old and broken horses sold on daily, lots of people think that its perfectly fine.


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## baran (15 October 2022)

nagblagger said:



			I think having 16 field ornaments speaks for me! No I don't own land.
		
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That would cost me per week more than I earn in one month.


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## BBP (15 October 2022)

honetpot said:



			Completely true for you, but if you haven't got,
time, money, knowledge, or the mental capacity or rigour to care for an animal that you have responsibility for that is going to be difficult to find a knowledgable home for, even in good economic times, PTS is the perhaps the least worst option. You can love your old pony, but be the worst horse keeper in terms of managing it.
  I have owned and ridden enough cast off equines, to know the ones that the average DIY livery owner can cope with. The owners are often short of time, and are looking for something that has no management issues, never mind being able to ride it.
I have cows, they have an economic value even when they old, or culled, you get money for their meat. If every milking cow was kept after it became uneconomic to milk it we would be over run with cows. To have a horse is euthanised it costs the owner money, so that is often a barrier that people have to face, even if they think that is the right option for them. It is not only an emotional but financial hit.
My thirty year old pony was PTS with colic three weeks ago, my now oldest is twenty three, I am not anti keeping your retired horse, but I do think people have to be realistic about the options for other people and their circumstances, and be less judgemental, and understand how difficult that decision can be.
		
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Which bit is true? I think I covered both sides didn’t I? I think we might be saying the same thing here? That money, time, mental capacity etc may all be reasons to put to sleep? I’m trying to view both sides so I’m hoping I didn’t come across as judgemental, I fully appreciate how lucky I am. Next year if mortgage rates rise I’m likely to have to choose between selling my house or losing my horses, but I’m super lucky that I have no family so I will sell my house and keep my two unrideable ponies. But I’m absolutely well aware that that isn’t a choice that other people can make.


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## scats (15 October 2022)

baran said:



			That would cost me per week more than I earn in one month.
		
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It must be a nightmare at dentist time! 🙈


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## nagblagger (15 October 2022)

[QUOTE="baran, post: That would cost me per week more than I earn in one month.[/QUOTE]
I rent the field rather than per horse, very reasonable rates - i know i'm extremely lucky.


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## paddy555 (15 October 2022)

BBP said:



			I wasn’t going to add my own anecdote, because I know no one really gives a flying fig about it, but it plays on my mind somewhat. I have a horse that has had some chronic health issues that come and go. I can be fairly certain that YCBM (sorry to use your name, but I think you may have commented on it in that past so stuck in my mind, it certainly isn’t meant as a criticism in any way) and similar people would have had him put to sleep multiple times before now had he been theirs. And Paddy555 may be more like me and still have him. And I genuinely don’t know who would be right. YCBMs and other similar posters approach would have saved him from periods where he was certainly in pain. He wouldn’t have known anything about it. Financially and stress wise I would have been better off. At that point in time it may have been in his best interests. But how was I to know if that pain was fleeting or if he was forever to feel bad? At what point do I decide? How hard do I try?

Four weeks ago I was sitting on the edge of having him put to sleep. He isn’t ridden, he owes me nothing, I didn’t want him to suffer. But I kept telling myself ‘I’ll just try this first’. And now he is bouncing around, all his eye tension is gone, the hard nostril, the tight lip and chin, he has a bright, open, shiny eye, he is absolutely full of himself and back to all of his happy behaviours that had vanished for part of the summer. So I don’t think I would have been wrong to have done it back then, but I don’t think I’m wrong to still have him here with me now based on how he is right now. What I do know is that an unridden horse with heath issues he will never leave me.
		
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Far from not caring a flying fig I think it's important for people to post what they have done, why and the conclusion. Without that no one can ever learn and see options they may or may not wish to take. 

I would have done what you did and he would also never leave me. 
I don't think it's wrong to put a horse through pain but that is pain for a reason which has the possibility of a successful conclusion. That is of course a difficult decision to make and to constantly review. 


I think you have done very well and he is a lucky chap. I hope it goes well for him.


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## paddy555 (15 October 2022)

nagblagger said:



			[QUOTE="Barton Bounty, post:]You obviously have a very big heart ❤️
		
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Thank you, but no, just stupid and a sucker for a sob story in my younger years.
However now i am much harder - no more horses and if they start needing a lot of veterinary intervention/care they will be pts. 8 of them are in their 20s.[/QUOTE]

I quite understand. These things just sort of happen and not much you can do about them. 
I am also adamant no more horses. Problem is if another turns up at one's gate what is one supposed to do?  and they seem to live for so long.  A pony I took in that was in a very poor state 10 years ago was around 26 at the time. Just a couple of years I thought. She is now 36 and can still outrun her 10 year old offspring. Is there no end in sight?


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## Flame_ (15 October 2022)

sky1000 said:



			I don't really think, in the end, that there is much of a dispute here.  Most people agree that no-one should pass on an unrideable horse that could be sold on to cause damage to people and misery to the horse.  I have read on here  horse welfare officers at markets breaking their hearts over old horses waiting to be sold looking up suddenly and hopefully at girls  who they thought might have come to save them.  That has certainly stayed with me.  Whether retire or pts, I think that is the general view.
		
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I've become much more open minded about other options for some horses where possible. Having needed to get a companion who is in a good home doing a good job, I can hardly condemn people for parting with companions. I do think the horse needs to fit "companion" criteria though. Blemished, good mares are suitable to go on from ridden homes to breeding homes. Strong, field sound, good natured but less good quality mares can be used for embryo transfer. Strong,field sound, large horses can be used for blood donation. Yes, horses exceed places in all these jobs but the homes do exist and some horses should get to fulfill those roles, AFAIC that's as good as selling any horse on and hoping it works out.


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## Birker2020 (15 October 2022)

paddy555 said:



			No way would I pass them on for loan/companion/BB/ET etc to abdicate my responsibility and to make me feel good.

.
		
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Hi Paddy, I feel you have a very skewed and cynical view of other people's incredibly painful decisions when you say things like you have. I'm sure I speak for a lot of people when I say people send horses to the blood bank not to absolve themselves of responsibilty or guilt but because they think having a young horse pts is a bloo*y shame when it can live many happy years with other horses doing what horses do, endlessly eating, forming close bonds with other horses in their herds being and living their very best life.

It certainly doesn't make anyone that's had to let their horse go to a bloodbank 'feel good', if anything its a totally heartbreaking decision. I am dreading having to say farewell to mine knowing I will never see him again, it will kill me.

Stuck between a rock and a hard place is how I'd describe it.


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## skinnydipper (15 October 2022)

Not a horse owner but dog and cat owner and all round animal lover here 



Birker2020 said:



			because they think having a young horse pts is a bloo*y shame* when it can live many happy years with other horses doing what horses do, endlessly eating, forming close bonds with other horses in their herds being and living their very best life*.
		
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Could a horse not live this very best life and remain in the care of their loving owner?


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## Peglo (15 October 2022)

I think it’s good to remember that you choose to be offended. You don’t have to be.

there’s people who does things differently to me on the forum. I don’t get offended but I do read and consider their view. If I still disagree, cool, If I decide that they are right, I change what I’m doing.

safe to say we try our best with our horses so if your content with your decisions, don’t be offended.


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## moosea (15 October 2022)

OP
I think that there are options you could look into.
If those options are not suitable then you would need to pts.
You know you can't sell this horse on.

Options might include

Asking your local RDA if she might be suitable for beginners to have a walk on or be used for non ridden or driving purposes
Loaning out as a companion to someone very local that you would be prepared to check on a minumum of once a month
Getting a sharer or multiple sharers to share from your yard.
Blood bank
PTS
If those options are not suitable then you would need to pts.

While everyone screams that you should not pass on older horses, they continue to advise novice owners to buy an older horse who needs to step down.
So I have no problem in people passing older, healthy, useful horses on.
Your horse has health issues that would impact greatly on her ability to find a good home.

You know you can't sell this horse on.

If I was you I'd spend a few months seriously looking into the options which suit your horse and if nothing was resolved I would PTS at home, knowing I had done all I could to avoid that outcome.


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## Upthecreek (15 October 2022)

Birker2020 said:



			Hi Paddy, I feel you have a very skewed and cynical view of other people's incredibly painful decisions when you say things like you have. I'm sure I speak for a lot of people when I say people send horses to the blood bank not to absolve themselves of responsibilty or guilt but because they think having a young horse pts is a bloo*y shame when it can live many happy years with other horses doing what horses do, endlessly eating, forming close bonds with other horses in their herds being and living their very best life.

It certainly doesn't make anyone that's had to let their horse go to a bloodbank 'feel good', if anything its a totally heartbreaking decision. I am dreading having to say farewell to mine knowing I will never see him again, it will kill me.

Stuck between a rock and a hard place is how I'd describe it.
		
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It may be a difficult choice, but it is a choice. You have made the decision to send your horse to the blood bank or pts to enable you to replace him with a horse you can ride. You could decide to keep the horse if the thought of saying goodbye to him is so painful for you, but you are putting your wish to ride first. I’m not criticising your decision, but it’s at odds with your argument that he should have the opportunity to live a long and happy life in a herd. Because he will only have this opportunity if the blood bank take him and his retirement is not at your expense. Otherwise he’ll be pts.


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## Dexter (15 October 2022)

Upthecreek said:



			It may be a difficult choice, but it is a choice. You have made the decision to send your horse to the blood bank or pts to enable you to replace him with a horse you can ride. You could decide to keep the horse if the thought of saying goodbye to him is so painful for you, but you are putting your wish to ride first. I’m not criticising your decision, but it’s at odds with your argument that he should have the opportunity to live a long and happy life in a herd. Because he will only have this opportunity if the blood bank take him and his retirement is not at your expense. Otherwise he’ll be pts.
		
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There is a huge amount of mental gymnastics and a big dose of cognitive dissonance going on.


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## Winters100 (15 October 2022)

Dexter said:



			There is a huge amount of mental gymnastics and a big dose of cognitive dissonance going on.
		
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Probably exposing my ignorance, but what do you mean? Genuine question.


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## Upthecreek (15 October 2022)

Winters100 said:



			Probably exposing my ignorance, but what do you mean? Genuine question.
		
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In the field of psychology, *cognitive dissonance* is the perception of contradictory information, and the mental toll of it. Relevant items of information include a person's actions, feelings, ideas, beliefs, values, and things in the environment. Cognitive dissonance is typically experienced as psychological stress when persons participate in an action that goes against one or more of those things. According to this theory, when two actions or ideas are not psychologically consistent with each other, people do all in their power to change them until they become consistent. The discomfort is triggered by the person's belief clashing with new information perceived, wherein the individual tries to find a way to resolve the contradiction to reduce their discomfort.


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## paddy555 (15 October 2022)

Birker2020 said:



			Hi Paddy, I feel you have a very skewed and cynical view of other people's incredibly painful decisions when you say things like you have. I'm sure I speak for a lot of people when I say people send horses to the blood bank not to absolve themselves of responsibilty or guilt but because they think having a young horse pts is a bloo*y shame when it can live many happy years with other horses doing what horses do, endlessly eating, forming close bonds with other horses in their herds being and living their very best life.

It certainly doesn't make anyone that's had to let their horse go to a bloodbank 'feel good', if anything its a totally heartbreaking decision. I am dreading having to say farewell to mine knowing I will never see him again, it will kill me.

Stuck between a rock and a hard place is how I'd describe it.
		
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Birker, I agree with post 442 and 439.  You are not between a rock and hard place.
You have a choice. You can keep Lari where you are out with other horses (HR has already confirmed he is fine out with others) you can move him elsewhere if the set up would be better or you can PTS/BB him. Each of those are your choices. It is very sad, I feel for both you and Lari but you do have a choice.

You don't want to do that because you say you have to ride and therefore need a horse. No one has to ride, riding is a privilege. Putting it simply your desire to ride exceeds your dread and being killed in saying goodbye to Lari. If you are unable to compromise on that then you have no choice Lari has to go.

Whether you like my views of not and some do and some don't you are the only one who can decide which is most important to you.

why not compromise for a year, turn Lari out with a herd, spend time with him and look after him then book some rides or even a riding holiday and enjoy yourself away from the worry of keeping a horse. 
Then see how it goes.


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## Orangehorse (15 October 2022)

sky1000 said:



			I don't really think, in the end, that there is much of a dispute here.  Most people agree that no-one should pass on an unrideable horse that could be sold on to cause damage to people and misery to the horse.  I have read on here  horse welfare officers at markets breaking their hearts over old horses waiting to be sold looking up suddenly and hopefully at girls  who they thought might have come to save them.  That has certainly stayed with me.  Whether retire or pts, I think that is the general view.
		
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OMG, please don't.  I wish I hadn't read that.  Poor, poor horses.


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## ycbm (15 October 2022)

paddy555 said:



			No one has to ride, riding is a privilege.
		
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This is the kind of value judgement that I don't think you have any right,  except for a right to  freedom of speech,  to write.

You have absolutely no idea what goes on in Birker's brain, and there were certainly times when I was her age that riding,  the physical act of being on the back of a horse I owned and knew well,  was the difference to me between my own life feeling worth living and not living.

Frankly if it's a choice between someone having a broken horse quietly and painlessly PTS and spending time in a mental health secure unit, or worse, then  I know where I stand on that.  
.


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## Orangehorse (15 October 2022)

For anyone to have their own horse PTS for any reason whatsover - that is entirely 100% their own choice and their own decision and I don't think anyone should make any comment.

Certainly not guilt trip them for it, it's hard enough for any owner.

Sadly, I think a lot of older horses will be PTS this autumn for financial reasons, partly.  But the horse won't know and at least you know what has happened to it and it won't suffer in the future.


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## SadKen (15 October 2022)

My rule since I returned to horses has been that if I found myself with a chronically injured horse, (assuming no pain if unridden, which I think is unlikely) it will be summer in the field then pts. Unless the horse has given me many years of service and has simply become old, where I might decide that a longer retirement is appropriate.

not because I ‘need’ to ride, but because I have had a chronically injured horse and it almost broke my brain because it was such a turgid grind with no bright patches. I will not go through that again. It was a pointless waste of energy, money, time and emotional investment. I had no choice as I was under 16.

horses cost a huge amount in time and money. I can’t justify investing these long term eg for my 13yo mare who I could have kept alive in retirement for conceivably 15 yrs + had I wished to force that on her. I would have got no joy from thatso a summer in the field it would have been. In the event she effectively indicated that she had had enough and welfare was compromised but I would have pts for injury after a summer out. That’s the pact I make with the horse when I buy them, and that is what I think is a fair arrangement.

I won’t judge anyone else for pts or keeping a horse in a long retirement. As long as the horse’s future is secure, fine.

Not aimed at you at all op - But I am so tired of people on social media whining about their elderly or broken horse ending up in a sh&t dealers yard because they sold it or gave it away as a companion rather than doing the right thing, be that retirement with the owner or pts. If an elderly broken horse ends up suffering IT IS ON THE OWNER for giving it away or selling it. I have zero sympathy for them and every sympathy for the poor horse.


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## CanteringCarrot (15 October 2022)

ycbm said:



			This is the kind of value judgement that I don't think you have any right, except for a right to freedom of speech, to write.
		
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It's only value judgment if you take it that way. I also don't think we need to tell people their "rights"

It was that posters opinion, view, and take on the situation.

If we want to really pick on it, I don't think many posters have any right here except for a right to freedom of speech. I've seen judgemental attitudes, backhandedness, and quite frankly people spouting BS more times than I can count. Many posters are not qualified to comment on many things, but still do. I don't care to tell them their "rights" but I understand where you're coming from.

At the end of the day, riding is a privilege and not a right. Now, if someone needs riding to literally survive (sorry I just don't have that much of an attachment to it) then they do what they have to do to survive/keep themselves in a good place... But to what extent should an animal suffer for that? That's just a general comment, not toward anyone, but we've all seen horses that are kept going purely for the owners sake and not their own. That's another matter though, not exactly my original point.

I'd of course rather a horse be humanely with euthanized vs human losing every bit of their sanity and mind.

At the end of the day, we only have horses for selfish reasons. Myself included.


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## stangs (15 October 2022)

“Horse riding is a right” is the worst opinion I’ve seen on this forum yet. 

It is a complete and utter privilege that these animals, prey animals at that, allow us to sit on their backs. If you need to ride to have a will to live, see a therapist. Don’t put your problems on the horse.


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## Dave's Mam (15 October 2022)

OP, my heart is with you.  It's not a decision that is lightly or easily made.
To those bickering over the rights & wrongs of the situation, is this really the place?  Wise up.


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## ponynutz (15 October 2022)

Deleted


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## ponynutz (15 October 2022)

Dave's Mam said:



			OP, my heart is with you.  It's not a decision that is lightly or easily made.
To those bickering over the rights & wrongs of the situation, is this really the place?  Wise up.
		
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100% agree - a couple of people, myself included, have suggested a separate thread but it's continued.


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## CanteringCarrot (15 October 2022)

Sometimes discussions evolve on a discussion board, unfortunately, no one owns the thread even though someone starts it. There's been a lot of "policing" and rudeness lately (but I'll wise up! Got it!).

I get where people are coming from, and I'm done here anyway.

There is also the option to ignore, scroll, or not contribute 

Taking my own advice, btw 🤣


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## SO1 (15 October 2022)

I know of 4 people in very similar situations to Birker who bought expensive competition horses 2 dressage and 2 eventers. The horses passed vettings but from very soon in started having problems and after spending time and money trying to resolve the problems they gave up. 

3 people decided to PTS and one decided to retire. The person who decided to retire got another horse who also developed issues and had to be retired and is now on her 3rd potential event horse.

The other eventer has a share horse and the two dressage riders still ride occasionally friends horses or riding school ones. They did not replace horses PTS. 

One of them did try the blood bank but her horse did not settle there. 

These horses all warmbloods under age of 11 so would have had long retirements. 

I do think people are more likely to PTS anrideable horse perhaps if they have not had it long so have not built up the bond so much. It is quite different feeling retiring your elderly horse you have had over 10 years of ridden work with than perhaps a horse that you have never had the pleasure of riding for the job they were intended for and only had a year or so.


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## sky1000 (15 October 2022)

Orangehorse said:



			OMG, please don't.  I wish I hadn't read that.  Poor, poor horses.[/Yes  it is a  bit on the heart breaking side.  QUOTE]
		
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## Dave's Mam (16 October 2022)

This thread isn't about Birker.


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## ycbm (16 October 2022)

CanteringCarrot said:



			It's only value judgment if you take it that way. I also don't think we need to tell people their "rights"

It was that posters opinion, view, and take on the situation.

If we want to really pick on it, I don't think many posters have any right here except for a right to freedom of speech. I've seen judgemental attitudes, backhandedness, and quite frankly people spouting BS more times than I can count. Many posters are not qualified to comment on many things, but still do. I don't care to tell them their "rights" but I understand where you're coming from.

At the end of the day, riding is a privilege and not a right. Now, if someone needs riding to literally survive (sorry I just don't have that much of an attachment to it) then they do what they have to do to survive/keep themselves in a good place... But to what extent should an animal suffer for that? That's just a general comment, not toward anyone, but we've all seen horses that are kept going purely for the owners sake and not their own. That's another matter though, not exactly my original point.

I'd of course rather a horse be humanely with euthanized vs human losing every bit of their sanity and mind.

At the end of the day, we only have horses for selfish reasons. Myself included.
		
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As a general point I completely agree with you.  As a specific point made quoting another poster who is clearly going through an exceptionally hard time right now,  I thought it was below the belt and deserved a comment.

Of course riding is not a right,  but it's nobody's business but the owner why they choose to lawfully,  quietly,  humanely PTS an unsound  horse so that they can afford to keep another which is,  hopefully,  rideable.
.


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## maya2008 (16 October 2022)

Up thread it was mentioned that personal experiences help…

- first horse I ever saw pts had snapped its leg in the field (literally, leg was swinging). Hunt came and that was that.
- second horse had hung on…and on…and on… for its much loved owner, despite being in pain and struggling to cope with life. When she finally went down for the last time and couldn’t get up, vet was called. I promised myself then that I would never let it get to that point with any of mine.
- my own first pts had a condition we had beaten once before. We went down the vet route but she was too old and this time couldn’t beat it. Months on box rest, on bute, only to be pts anyway. Lesson learned from that is not to spend a fortune trying to fix old horses when the outcome is uncertain anyway. Not fair on them.
- second own pts was old retired mare whose arthritis had progressed to the point where she was miserable, not eating, falling over. Called knackerman as soon as she went from happy to miserable.
- third own pts went with her best friend as it was her last summer anyway and she had become increasingly aggressive, showing clearly she was in pain.  The day she attacked one of the yearlings (she was previously the sweetest soul) was the day I knew.

Only one of those that were mine ever retired. I currently have a Shetland who got lami while on loan. Six months later she is comfortable in walk but still lame in trot. She’s not unhappy, so we’re keeping going. We bought another small one to keep her company, built her a grass free pen outdoors and are giving her the best chance we can.  I will give her a year and we’ll see. She can’t spend the rest of her life on box rest/small pen turnout.  Vets fully involved, negative for Cushings.

I have sent two horses out on loan in my life, both came back broken. I would sell a healthy horse (have done that with good outcomes) but would pts before I would ever loan again. Even on loan to the best of people, it just doesn’t seem to work.


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## ycbm (16 October 2022)

I have to admit I don't know what I'll do if Ludo gets a mechanical, pain free injury. It's not a situation I've ever faced with a horse,  and you never know how you'll react until you're actually in that situation.

I'm glad the OP says that she's found the thread helpful.  I suspect there will be a lot of people in her position as the food and energy bills really hit.  

I suspect there will also be people trying to sell for financial reasons who find out their horse won't pass a vet, and that's nightmare territory if the horse could recover but you just can't afford the vet fees and the livery while it does.
..


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## Pinkvboots (16 October 2022)

I am very much if its your horse it's your choice I have worked in yards over the years where I have dealt with other people's horses when the owner wants them to be pts but can't deal with it.

Some I agreed with some I didn't but I've learnt that it's not my decision so I've kept my nose out of it, I appreciate that it's hard enough without people putting there views and judgement on you at such a time, so I just got on with the the job in hand and made sure it was done properly.

I am sorry for the posters on here that have got flack for having a horse pts no one has the right to do that.

Sending horses to a blood bank it's not for me but that's a subject for a different thread but as usual some posters on here decide to make everything about them and there situation.


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## paddy555 (16 October 2022)

ycbm said:



			Of course riding is not a right,  but it's nobody's business but the owner why they choose to lawfully,  quietly,  humanely PTS an unsound  horse so that they can afford to keep another which is,  hopefully,  rideable.
.
		
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I totally agree it is no one's business however if people post on a forum then surely they are going to get comments and suggestions. Some will agree and some disagree. 
Birker addressed a post to me last night and I replied. I gave a suggestion as to what she could do. 



SO1 said:



			I know of 4 people in very similar situations to Birker who bought expensive competition horses 2 dressage and 2 eventers. The horses passed vettings but from very soon in started having problems and after spending time and money trying to resolve the problems they gave up.

3 people decided to PTS and one decided to retire. The person who decided to retire got another horse who also developed issues and had to be retired and is now on her 3rd potential event horse.
		
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I think this is very relevant in her case.


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## paddy555 (16 October 2022)

ycbm said:



			I have to admit I don't know what I'll do if Ludo gets a mechanical, pain free injury. It's not a situation I've ever faced with a horse,  and you never know how you'll react until you're actually in that situation.

..
		
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can't do another set of quotes but this was post 77 and it was in fact the reason I even posted on this thread. 

_" That's one reason why I never retire horses, I can't be sure they aren't in pain'._

you are right and you never do know how you'll react until you find yourself in that situation so personally I don't think the automatic default PTS advice given on here is always correct. 

. Maybe Ludo would be retired. As I have already said I retire (I never pass them on and I know I am lucky to be able to) and there is a lot of pleasure to be gained from a retired horse.


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## Birker2020 (16 October 2022)

Upthecreek said:



			It may be a difficult choice, but it is a choice. You have made the decision to send your horse to the blood bank or pts to enable you to replace him with a horse you can ride. You could decide to keep the horse if the thought of saying goodbye to him is so painful for you, but you are putting your wish to ride first. I’m not criticising your decision, but it’s at odds with your argument that he should have the opportunity to live a long and happy life in a herd. Because he will only have this opportunity if the blood bank take him and his retirement is not at your expense. Otherwise he’ll be pts.
		
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Re: your last sentence. No that's  not quite correct,  I've also stated on here numerous times that if i can find something to ride even if its a riding school lesson once a week and it satisfies my urge to ride than i shall keep him where he is if the bloodbank won't take him. Thanks


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## Upthecreek (16 October 2022)

Dave's Mam said:



			This thread isn't about Birker.
		
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It isn’t but anyone who chooses to post about their own personal situation must surely expect people to comment on it?

Threads evolve and different issues to the original subject come up. I don’t see any problem with that.


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## Upthecreek (16 October 2022)

Birker2020 said:



			Re: your last sentence. No that's  not quite correct,  I've also stated on here numerous times that if i can find something to ride even if its a riding school lesson once a week and it satisfies my urge to ride than i shall keep him where he is if the bloodbank won't take him. Thanks
		
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Sorry I must have missed you saying that. I thought the latest was you planned to pts in the spring if the blood bank wouldn’t take him.


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## Birker2020 (16 October 2022)

Upthecreek said:



			Sorry I must have missed you saying that. I thought the latest was you planned to pts in the spring if the blood bank wouldn’t take him.
		
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It's ok. I'm really hoping to keep him if the BB say no. One day I will be in the position to keep him in retirement and buy one to ride but until then I'm hoping to lose the weight one and for all and loan/riding school and see his big white face over the door.


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## Flame_ (16 October 2022)

paddy555 said:



			there is a lot of pleasure to be gained from a retired horse.
		
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This isn't true for some people. Some people just love to ride. To event, to show, to hunt, to jump jumps, to improve the ridden partnership. They *endure* the non-ridden stuff, pay a lot of money for someone else to do it or at best accept and tolerate it to do the things that bring them pleasure. I've mellowed with age and developed appreciation for, and enjoyment of, taking care of horses but what I like about horses most is still riding them.


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## Goldenstar (16 October 2022)

There is pleasure in having a retired friend like my wicked pal Fatty.
However and I don’t find it easy to articulate this I find it an uncomfortable experience the truth is I find it like having the decision hanging over you permanently because it’s always there just round the corner and you go through it over and over .
having got into it you have decide when you stop and question all time is he ok has he deteriorated all the time .
When he did have pain because of the teeth thing you have to make the decision to do something about it and having decided and then consider the costs and putting the horses through the experience. 
Then of course you know that’s just it till the next time .


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## ycbm (16 October 2022)

paddy555 said:



			I don't think the automatic default PTS advice given on here is always correct.
		
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Nobody gives that advice.

All they do is say that is their own position.

I've never seen one single post give that as advice. You are misinterpreting people explaining what their own position is,  (often in response to your own challenge of them),  as "giving advice" to others.
.


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## ycbm (16 October 2022)

paddy555 said:



			there is a lot of pleasure to be gained from a retired horse.
		
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For YOU. You cannot speak for anyone else.  
.


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## HollyWoozle (16 October 2022)

OP, I am sorry for your situation but you sound very wise and I believe your horse is lucky to be in your care. ☺️

We will never sell our horses and ponies or loan them out, the day I feel their quality of life isn’t good enough they will be put to sleep at home. However we are lucky to have family land and the means to keep retired horses at a limited cost - I completely understand that it’s not feasible for many and do not judge anybody for putting their horse to sleep over retiring them. As others have said, horses don’t worry about the future in the same way we do (at least not to my knowledge!).

I chose to have a mare PTS around aged 15 due to an arthritic knee - that was over 10 years ago and whilst I do not regret the decision for a moment, I think of her and of that day often. And you know what? I’m pleased I do… the decision to end a life should not ever be easy. It is a power we are fortunate to have and a gift we can give to end suffering, but it will never be comfortable and that’s the price we pay for owning and, in many cases, loving our pets.

On the other side of the coin, my current mare has been retired for years now too due to behavioural problems when ridden which we couldn’t figure out (I expect relating to pain under saddle). I firmly believe she is comfortable in the field and that she has a great life, so she stays there since we have the space and resources to care for her, but she would’ve been easy to pass on. I know that decision would’ve haunted me forever and here we are… a field full of horses, nothing to ride, but I sleep well at night and I think they do too. BUT if we hadn’t owned land she would be at permanent rest already.


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## paddy555 (16 October 2022)

ycbm said:



			Nobody gives that advice.

All they do is say that is their own position.

I've never seen one single post give that as advice, you are misinterpreting people explaining what their own position is,  (often in response to your own challenge of them),  as "giving advice" to others.
.
		
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if you look at numerous threads (not this one) but ones about problem/old  horses then a very large number of the replies will be PTS. A few will make other suggestions but many times I have seen them criticised for their alternative suggestions. 

PTS may  well be the answer but I do find it depressing that it always,, to me at least, seems to come out as the stock reply.


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## Goldenstar (16 October 2022)

Because it is the logical course of action in most situations.
And it is never wrong because a horse does not suffer once it’s PTS .
These are stark facts .


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## Dexter (16 October 2022)

Dave's Mam said:



			This thread isn't about Birker.
		
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Every thread ends up being about her though


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## ycbm (16 October 2022)

paddy555 said:



			if you look at numerous threads (not this one) but ones about problem/old  horses then a very large number of the replies will be PTS. A few will make other suggestions but many times I have seen them criticised for their alternative suggestions.

PTS may  well be the answer but I do find it depressing that it always,, to me at least, seems to come out as the stock reply.
		
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Nobody posts with a "should I PTS?" query without their horse being in a situation where PTS is a sensible option,  so there are bound to always be posts supporting that as a way forward. 

The day someone posts "my horse is a good all rounder but I'm fed up with him and want a sportier model, should I have him PTS as it will be easier than selling him?", then I think you'll find that what you consider to be a default answer is no such thing.  
.


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## Dexter (16 October 2022)

Goldenstar said:



			Because it is the logical course of action in most situations.
And it is never wrong because a horse does not suffer once it’s PTS .
These are stark facts .
		
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A dead horse never suffers. They never end up in a downwards spiral. They never end up going from dodgy dealer to dodgy dealer. 

And that is why PTS is always suggested.


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## paddy555 (16 October 2022)

ycbm said:



			For YOU. You cannot speak for anyone else.
.
		
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I apologise, you are quite correct. I guess I made the assumption that many on here would actually like horses for being, well, horses. That they would get pleasure from looking after them and spending time with them, trying to resolve their problems.

It is my mistake as I simply didn't realise, until Flame pointed it out, that so many people do in fact "endure" and "tolerate" their horses just for their use as a machine to hunt, jump etc. Those are just not my sort of people so I am probably best off out of this thread.


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## Tiddlypom (16 October 2022)

Most 'should I PTS' posts are about terminally sick or broken horses who do not and are unlikely ever to fit the basic criteria of being a happy pasture ornament.

I'd never need to post such a thread, I do not need my decisions validated by the HHO consensus, yet time and again such threads are posted.


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## ycbm (16 October 2022)

paddy555 said:



			It is my mistake as I simply didn't realise, until Flame pointed it out, that so many people do in fact "endure" and "tolerate" their horses just for their use as a machine to hunt, jump etc. Those are just not my sort of people so I am probably best off out of this thread. 

Click to expand...

Smiley notwithstanding, this is a pretty nasty post if it's directed at forum members.
.


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## conniegirl (16 October 2022)

paddy555 said:



			I apologise, you are quite correct. I guess I made the assumption that many on here would actually like horses for being, well, horses. That they would get pleasure from looking after them and spending time with them, trying to resolve their problems.

It is my mistake as I simply didn't realise, until Flame pointed it out, that so many people do in fact "endure" and "tolerate" their horses just for their use as a machine to hunt, jump etc. Those are just not my sort of people so I am probably best off out of this thread. 

Click to expand...

What a nasty judgemental post.

tbh the only one being judgemental on this thread is you.


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## Goldenstar (16 October 2022)

Tiddlypom said:



			Most 'should I PTS' posts are about terminally sick or broken horses who do not and are unlikely ever to fit the basic criteria of being a happy pasture ornament.

I'd never need to post such a thread, I do not need my decisions validated by the HHO consensus, yet time and again such threads are posted.
		
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Many People need help when they are making the decision and you can see from this thread some people in RL are very unkind to those in this situation .


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## tristar (16 October 2022)

many of these situations are not clear cut, the very least we can do is listen and support.

it is a credit to many that they make the effort to find a humane solution, and not just take the quickest or easiest way out.


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## Flame_ (16 October 2022)

SadKen said:



			Not aimed at you at all op - But I am so tired of people on social media whining about their elderly or broken horse ending up in a sh&t dealers yard because they sold it or gave it away as a companion rather than doing the right thing, be that retirement with the owner or pts. If an elderly broken horse ends up suffering IT IS ON THE OWNER for giving it away or selling it. I have zero sympathy for them and every sympathy for the poor horse.
		
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This one irks me a bit. I wish there were harsher punishments, more consequences and maybe more ways of preventing the real villains in the chain (which are the people obtaining horses under false pretences then making money of the back of them by selling them deceitfully to someone else) doing what they do. They barely get a mention but well intentioned owners who *are misled victims,* get a hard time. It's like an amped up version of berating someone for not locking their car and someone stealing it. I do have sympathy for these people but understand why it's important to keep reminding horse owners in general about needing to protect their horses from this fate, like reminding them to lock their cars.


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## scats (16 October 2022)

I’ve always been very clear that I have dogs and cats as pets, I don’t keep horses as pets.  I buy them and keep them to ride.  Preparing to be shot down in flames here but my reasons for committing to the whole horse thing is because of the lifestyle that riding brings for me.  I don’t get any particular enjoyment out of the ‘caring’ for my horses, to be honest, but I do my absolute best to give them a life that they deserve and I dedicate pretty much everything to them.  Have I kept horses who have had to be retired young?  Yes.  But I have been in the fortunate position to afford 1-2 horses alongside the retiree, so I can still enjoy riding. 
The effect on my mental health when I am out of the saddle for any length of time is really quite worrying.  Some people might be happy watching horses grazing in fields, or grooming or pottering about with them, but I’m not one of those people.  I can totally see how not having a horse that you can ride could be catastrophic to someone’s mental health.  As a result, there would no be judgement from me if someone chose to PTS a horse with multiple problems that meant they can’t be ridden.


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## ycbm (16 October 2022)

tristar said:



			it is a credit to many that they make the effort to find a humane solution, and not just take the quickest or easiest way out.
		
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The easiest way out that I think you are referring to,  professional PTS, is always a humane solution. 
.


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## Sossigpoker (16 October 2022)

SadKen said:



			Not aimed at you at all op - But I am so tired of people on social media whining about their elderly or broken horse ending up in a sh&t dealers yard because they sold it or gave it away as a companion rather than doing the right thing, be that retirement with the owner or pts. If an elderly broken horse ends up suffering IT IS ON THE OWNER for giving it away or selling it. I have zero sympathy for them and every sympathy for the poor horse.
		
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I couldn't agree more.


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## SO1 (16 October 2022)

I think we have to be honest here most people do not buy horses as companion animals in the same way we do cats and dogs. 

Most people buy horses because they want to ride. Same reason people go to riding schools or want to get a share horse. 

When I bought Homey 15 years ago it was important that he had a nice temperament and like being brushed and cuddled and was easy to handle on the ground as I expected one day he would become a non ridden companion to me even if just due to old age and at that point I could still enjoy his company if he had a good temperament. 

Sadly he had to be PTS at 20 due to a gastric impaction so it never got to the point that he was retired but unridable. He was PTS under BEVA guidance on advice from my vet.

I do want to get another pony because I want to ride more than I am currently doing at the riding school, and I want to complete. I do enjoy the cuddles and companionship but I would not buy horse just for that purpose. There are plenty of offers from friends to groom and cuddle their horses including retired ones. 

I would not put down a horse if it was unrideable unless on the advice of my vet or perhaps in the situation where I felt quality of life was poor such as a laminitic who could never have grass turnout again if I couldn't find a grass free track livery option, or financially I could not afford to provide a good quality of life as vets bills were unmanageable for example long term ulcer treatment which costs 2k a month if that had to be permanent then it would just not be an option for years on end. 

Vet treatment can be really expensive one of my friends spents £7 a day on Cushings tablets for her two veterans. 

Some people's circumstances will change and they can no longer afford to be a horse owner without it impacting severely on family life or pushing themselves into an unacceptable level of debt and then they cannot borrow more.


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## SatansLittleHelper (16 October 2022)

ycbm said:



			I have to admit I don't know what I'll do if Ludo gets a mechanical, pain free injury. It's not a situation I've ever faced with a horse,
		
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Send him to me 😁😁😉

I'm interested to read all of the replies on here, we clearly have a very diverse set of personal opinions/experiences and circumstances. 
I have 2 horses and haven't ridden since March for a few reasons and I've been thinking about the riding thing alot. I am probably in the minority of horse owners but I actually enjoy the day to day non riding stuff as much as riding. I love just being with them and hanging out, watching and seeing what makes them tick. I don't know how I'd feel if they were unrideable to be honest. I'm very, very lucky in that my horses live out, live down the road and cost very little to keep in terms of field rent and general maintenance. I might feel more strongly one way or the other if I were at a livery yard and paying out much more money. Whether we like it or not it does quite often come down to our finances and circumstances with horses. I don't think anyone is wrong to PTS but I think it's lovely if you can offer a pain free, happy retirement.


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## Bellaboo18 (16 October 2022)

SatansLittleHelper said:



			Send him to me 😁😁😉

I'm interested to read all of the replies on here, we clearly have a very diverse set of personal opinions/experiences and circumstances.
I have 2 horses and haven't ridden since March for a few reasons and I've been thinking about the riding thing alot. I am probably in the minority of horse owners but I actually enjoy the day to day non riding stuff as much as riding. I love just being with them and hanging out, watching and seeing what makes them tick. I don't know how I'd feel if they were unrideable to be honest. I'm very, very lucky in that my horses live out, live down the road and cost very little to keep in terms of field rent and general maintenance. I might feel more strongly one way or the other if I were at a livery yard and paying out much more money. Whether we like it or not it does quite often come down to our finances and circumstances with horses. I don't think anyone is wrong to PTS but I think it's lovely if you can offer a pain free, happy retirement.
		
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I love hanging out with my horses. I often sit in the field with them for hours (more so in the summer!). The other liveries find it odd and I just say I find them great company 😊


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## Barton Bounty (16 October 2022)

I do that too! I love sitting with my boy 😬


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## Boulty (16 October 2022)

Will admit I've tried twice to retire horses & both times concluded in the space of a few months that I wasn't happy they were comfortable enough even on maximum bute dose for their weight.  

One of them, although conversations with the vet about his options were ongoing (he'd had hock arthritis for about 8 years) it was the point at which I realised that he couldn't play anymore & he really really wanted to. He was mildly lame in walk & looked awful in trot even on bute. Ended up letting him go in the middle of an awful period of snow & frost & decided I never wanted to have to make that call in the middle of winter again. 

Second pony wasn't as obviously lame day to day but had neck arthritis & issues with his poll (plus other issues that meant he couldn't live out 24/7 on grass and had to be on a track).  Did used to go lame if he went charging about, especially if it was wet & slippy.  He liked charging about on a regular basis. I became more & more concerned that his neck & back were causing him pain & when his poll was hurting he couldn't tolerate any pressure there without rearing. Was originally going to give him "one last Summer" until my trimmer who'd known him for years basically asked me why I was torturing myself / keeping him going any longer when we thought he was in pain.  Again he was on as much bute as I dared (Cushing's & liver issues with a history of ulcers) but it honestly didn't seem to help him much. 

Both were the sort of horse who thrived on work both physically (keeping muscle on both of them helped them massively with their health issues whilst they were sound enough to be ridden)  and mentally and sadly they both declined a lot faster when they weren't able to do it anymore.  The second horse I did do A LOT of stuff inhand including endless inhand walks, hillwork & polework plus straightness training etc when I was aiming to get him back in light work but sadly he was too broken at that point for it to make a difference. 

Not all horses can have the happy, pain free retirement in a nice big field that we envisage as the "ideal" & calling it too early will always be kinder to the horse than too late / a fate of being passed around god knows how many times.


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## SadKen (16 October 2022)

Flame_ said:



			This one irks me a bit. I wish there were harsher punishments, more consequences and maybe more ways of preventing the real villains in the chain (which are the people obtaining horses under false pretences then making money of the back of them by selling them deceitfully to someone else) doing what they do. They barely get a mention but well intentioned owners who *are misled victims,* get a hard time. It's like an amped up version of berating someone for not locking their car and someone stealing it. I do have sympathy for these people but understand why it's important to keep reminding horse owners in general about needing to protect their horses from this fate, like reminding them to lock their cars.
		
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Sorry, disagree here. The horse is the victim, not the owner. I see posts selling horses who are in their twenties on preloved, or ‘potential brood mares’ and ‘companion TB’ for free or nearly free, due to injuries that the owner can’t or doesn’t want to investigate. People who sell or give those horses away are willing to accept an overwhelming risk that they will be mistreated and exploited by bad people. The owners do this because they can’t or won’t PTS or retire safely; it isn’t well intentioned because they do it for selfish reasons: so they don’t have to shoulder the burden of retirement or PTS. Those are the two options to secure the horse’s future. Letting elderly or injured horses leave your care is opening the door to abusers. It happens routinely. It is on the owner to minimise risks to the animals they claim to love.

Naivety is no excuse when you’re talking about obvious risks and animal welfare. 

I have sympathy for those who tried to secure a loan home and were lied to, but would question the wisdom of loaning unrideable or elderly animals except maybe for small ponies because bad people are looking for exactly that and don’t care about contracts. And agree that harsher sentences would be good. But people can’t fuel the market for bad people to exploit animals then complain that such a market exists; if owners didn’t let these horses go, it would be harder for bad people to exploit the animals and the buyers into the bargain.

this may seem harsh but it really boils my blood to see the same old story over and over, and I will never forget the sale video for an ancient horse doing his best being ridden by a dodgy dealer despite his obvious age and stiffness. That broke my heart; the tedious whining from those who willingly put their elderly injured horses in harm’s way does not.


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## SEL (16 October 2022)

Tiddlypom said:



			Most 'should I PTS' posts are about terminally sick or broken horses who do not and are unlikely ever to fit the basic criteria of being a happy pasture ornament.

I'd never need to post such a thread, I do not need my decisions validated by the HHO consensus, yet time and again such threads are posted.
		
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Most of the time it's people needing a sounding board. My last one was tough and I didn't really have anyone I could sit down and talk it over with who wasn't at a safe emotional distance. I had a lot of sleepless nights and actually internet strangers as a sounding board would have been ok - except I have bad experience of HHO PTS threads already!


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## Dave's Mam (16 October 2022)

Expense has got to be a huge part of it.  For me to keep an unridden pony would be £300 per month livery alone.


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## Wishfilly (16 October 2022)

I think expense is very different when you have a family, too. It's easy for me to say that if my pony needed to be retired, I'd keep him long term, assuming I believed he was happy and pain free. He's also, bar mild sweet itch, pretty easy to keep. I think it's much harder if they are e.g. laminitis prone, etc. If I had children, and I felt I could be using the money I spend keeping him on things for them, I think it would be more difficult.

That said, I do also enjoy doing ground work, taking him for walks in hand, and just hanging out and grooming- and I have no competitive ambitions. So it's perhaps an easy decision for me. 

I definitely wouldn't pass on a horse that wasn't ridable for whatever reason- unless it was for a specific purpose, like showing in hand or breeding from a long term broodmare who'd never been backed. There are companion homes out there, but there are a lot more companions looking for homes.


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## Ali27 (16 October 2022)

SadKen said:



			Sorry, disagree here. The horse is the victim, not the owner. I see posts selling horses who are in their twenties on preloved, or ‘potential brood mares’ and ‘companion TB’ for free or nearly free, due to injuries that the owner can’t or doesn’t want to investigate. People who sell or give those horses away are willing to accept an overwhelming risk that they will be mistreated and exploited by bad people. The owners do this because they can’t or won’t PTS or retire safely; it isn’t well intentioned because they do it for selfish reasons: so they don’t have to shoulder the burden of retirement or PTS. Those are the two options to secure the horse’s future. Letting elderly or injured horses leave your care is opening the door to abusers. It happens routinely. It is on the owner to minimise risks to the animals they claim to love.

Naivety is no excuse when you’re talking about obvious risks and animal welfare.

I have sympathy for those who tried to secure a loan home and were lied to, but would question the wisdom of loaning unrideable or elderly animals except maybe for small ponies because bad people are looking for exactly that and don’t care about contracts. And agree that harsher sentences would be good. But people can’t fuel the market for bad people to exploit animals then complain that such a market exists; if owners didn’t let these horses go, it would be harder for bad people to exploit the animals and the buyers into the bargain.

this may seem harsh but it really boils my blood to see the same old story over and over, and I will never forget the sale video for an ancient horse doing his best being ridden by a dodgy dealer despite his obvious age and stiffness. That broke my heart; the tedious whining from those who willingly put their elderly injured horses in harm’s way does not.
		
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Absolutely agree with this! Hate that people sell old horses/ horses with issues! 
I absolutely love riding but I love my ponies more! I’ve never sold a pony and mine are with me forever! Once I buy a horse then they are my absolute responsibility until the end of their days! My ridden pony is 20 and still going strong (had her since she was 6), being super careful and not jumping/ doing fast work on hard ground now but I owe it to her to have a happy retirement when needed (as long as pain free)! I’ve had two past horses/ ponies PTS when in early 20’s due to tendon injury/ liver failure so absolutely know when the right time to let them go is.


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## Tiddlypom (17 October 2022)

SEL said:



			Most of the time it's people needing a sounding board. My last one was tough and I didn't really have anyone I could sit down and talk it over with who wasn't at a safe emotional distance. I had a lot of sleepless nights and actually internet strangers as a sounding board would have been ok - except I have bad experience of HHO PTS threads already!
		
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Yes, I remember that you had a really rough time from a small minority of posters on that thread, despite it being clear that you were doing the best that you could for the pony 😬.


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## Gloi (17 October 2022)

I think that now I am in my sixties if my current one became unrideable I would just keep him as a pet and not replace him. I would have found that much harder to do in my twenties when I was competing every week and wanted something that I could ride or at least show in hand as a youngster.


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## marmalade76 (17 October 2022)

SadKen said:



			Sorry, disagree here. The horse is the victim, not the owner. I see posts selling horses who are in their twenties on preloved, or ‘potential brood mares’ and ‘companion TB’ for free or nearly free, due to injuries that the owner can’t or doesn’t want to investigate. People who sell or give those horses away are willing to accept an overwhelming risk that they will be mistreated and exploited by bad people. The owners do this because they can’t or won’t PTS or retire safely; it isn’t well intentioned because they do it for selfish reasons: so they don’t have to shoulder the burden of retirement or PTS. Those are the two options to secure the horse’s future. Letting elderly or injured horses leave your care is opening the door to abusers. It happens routinely. It is on the owner to minimise risks to the animals they claim to love.

Naivety is no excuse when you’re talking about obvious risks and animal welfare.

I have sympathy for those who tried to secure a loan home and were lied to, but would question the wisdom of loaning unrideable or elderly animals except maybe for small ponies because bad people are looking for exactly that and don’t care about contracts. And agree that harsher sentences would be good. But people can’t fuel the market for bad people to exploit animals then complain that such a market exists; if owners didn’t let these horses go, it would be harder for bad people to exploit the animals and the buyers into the bargain.

this may seem harsh but it really boils my blood to see the same old story over and over, and I will never forget the sale video for an ancient horse doing his best being ridden by a dodgy dealer despite his obvious age and stiffness. That broke my heart; the tedious whining from those who willingly put their elderly injured horses in harm’s way does not.
		
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Agreed.
If they CBA to look after their old/broken horse themselves, what on earth makes them think that anyone else, with no emotional attachment to their horse, will?


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## Errin Paddywack (17 October 2022)

Something like 55 yrs ago when I was working at a RS my boss took me with her to Leicester Horse sales. There was an elderly roan gelding there, plaited up with big bristly plaits, no-one with him and I just felt so sorry for him.  He looked an honest sort and just did not deserve to end up like that. He has haunted me ever since.  Back then the meat men were at every sale and I expect that was where he ended up.  I really, really hate people that do this to their old horses.


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## meleeka (17 October 2022)

The worst thing is when people defend giving them away by saying it wouldn’t be fair to put them to sleep.  What’s not fair is thinking its
someone else’s problem and hoping for the best. 

I had a friend that used to sell all her horses when they got to 16. She said that was the cut off and if they were older she’d have to keep them into their retirement, which she didn’t want to do.  At the time I thought she was a bit heartless, but it made sense.  She didn’t let her heart get in the way and all the horses I knew went on to find their forever homes.


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## Cortez (17 October 2022)

meleeka said:



			The worst thing is when people defend giving them away by saying it wouldn’t be fair to put them to sleep.  What’s not fair is thinking its
someone else’s problem and hoping for the best.

I had a friend that used to sell all her horses when they got to 16. She said that was the cut off and if they were older she’d have to keep them into their retirement, which she didn’t want to do.  At the time I thought she was a bit heartless, but it made sense.  She didn’t let her heart get in the way and all the horses I knew went on to find their forever homes.
		
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That is actually an ethical and sensible system, as long as the horses were sound and able to do a job for someone. I've never knowingly sold a lame horse, or an unrideable one. Come to think of it, I've never sold a horse in its' teens, except for one very well bred in-foal broodmare.


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## Hepsibah (17 October 2022)

One more experience to add to the others:
Bess, my Fell pony mare used to be a driving pony until she had an altercation with a pothole that left her with injury related arthritis. Her owner, after trying various things, found she was no longer up to being driven as she had been and decided to PTS. This was the winter of 2009/2010. She hired someone to take her to the vet who suggested she may be of use to someone else and offered to try to rehome her. I bought her to ride out on short, slow hacks with my partner. She was perfect for me and such a lovely person. I adored her. After careful consideration we decided to put her in foal and she had a lovely filly for us who we still own 11 years on. 
A year of being turned out with doctor green then slowly coming back into work and she stayed sound. She made me very happy for years and years, ridden and unridden. 
2017 she suddenly dropped a lot of weight so we got the vet who sent bloods off to Liphook. Results came back as end stage liver failure and PPID. This was Friday. I resolved to get the vet to PTS on Monday and spoil her thoroughly over the weekend. By Sunday she was a very happy seeming pony. Perky and chatty, absolutely loving her food and treats so my partner suggested we try her on prascend and see how she went. I wasn't wholly convinced it was the right thing to do but I could't deny she didn't seem unhappy. I agreed on the understanding that the moment she started to deteriorate, she would be PTS.
Two weeks later she was gaining weight and charging about like a loon as she always had thanks to the pink pill. That gave us three more years of riding until I retired her in 2020.
This February I could see she hadn't had a good winter. She had lived out with one other pony (not mine) in a small field close to the one I keep the others in and usually did fine. This year she hadn't. I had increased her dose of prascend and it wasn't agreeing with her but she needed it to control the PPID. I was out of options so I stopped the prascend and brought her to the field so she could spend a couple of weeks in with her daughter before I got the vet out. 
She defied the odds again and perked up and became quite herself so again I put off the vet visit yet again and allowed her to continue until she became symptomatic. When she began to lose weight, we arranged the vet which gave us 48 hours. The following day was the hottest on record, 19th July. We gave all the horses a good soaking that morning then went to do it again at lunchtime and found Bess lying down, not wanting to get up. We called the vet and Bess was gone within the hour. Mine was one of four the vet had seen collapsed in the heat that day.
I don't know when the "right time" was but she went peacefully with a tummy full of food, her field mates around her and her head in my lap, giving my hand a nose wibble.


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## Birker2020 (17 October 2022)

Gloi said:





Tiddlypom said:



			Most 'should I PTS' posts are about terminally sick or broken horses who do not and are unlikely ever to fit the basic criteria of being a happy pasture ornament.

I'd never need to post such a thread, I do not need my decisions validated by the HHO consensus, yet time and again such threads are posted.
		
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Exactly.  I make my own mind up based on the people who know my horse best, that's me, my vet, possibly my Y.O and not by some randomers on H&H forum.

I'd never come on to ask that question, if I mention it, its in passing and to update or give my POV when asked and certainly not because I want a WWYD? answer.

Everyone's circumstances are different.


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## Annagain (17 October 2022)

We've not long said goodbye to Monty, my old share horse. He was 26, had been retired 18 months due to a field injury after a very sound (and wonderful) ridden career. He didn't love retirement, he's always been a bit bit of a loner in the field (Archie was the only one allowed near him) so hanging out with buddies wasn't all that fun for him, being stabled overnight in winter (yard rules) didn't suit him (he tolerated it but didn't enjoy it) but equally moving him from the only home he'd known for 20 years so he could live out didn't feel right either. 

Meanwhile, Archie (at least 26) who retired 2 1/2 years ago is the best he's ever been. He spent over 10 years semi-retired due to foot issues so I expected that when they finally caught up with him and he retired, he'd deteriorate quite quickly and if his feet didn't get him, his melanomas would (I was told I'd be lucky to get him to 20 with them). The opposite is true. He's the soundest he's been for years, he's not lost or gained any weight, his Victor Meldrew tendencies have disappeared and he's the happiest, cwtchiest, sweetest of horses. He's always been very sociable in the field and he seems to love being around his mates. He's sound in trot in the field on no bute at all, can be a bit stiff coming out of his stable after he's been in overnight but it's worn off by the time he reaches the field gate 30m away. He plays with his friends and can get out of trouble if needs be (although this is very rare as his little herd is very settled and he knows his place). 

M's owner and I always had a loose agreement that we'd let them go together - they'd been best buds for 17 years and we all called them Waldorf and Stadler at the yard - but when it came to it, I couldn't do it with Arch. He's just too happy at the moment. I was so worried he'd be miserable without Mont but he seems absolutely fine. He seems to have teamed up with another horse who was always too scared of Monty to get close to Archie but who seems to be very happy to be with him now. 

Plenty of other people would have let Archie go with Mont - his issues on paper would more than justify it. Many others would have done it 15 years ago when his feet first became an issue but knowing him like I do, I knew he wasn't ready then, and I know he's not ready now.

On paper, A would be the one to go and M not, but they both reacted so differently to the same situation that the reverse was true. That's why I'd never judge anyone for whichever decision they make. There is no right or wrong, just right or wrong FOR EACH INDIVIDUAL HORSE AND OWNER.


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## cauda equina (17 October 2022)

My old boy loved being retired; he went from a neurotic field bully to a chilled out dude
You don't know how a horse is going to take to retirement until you try it


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