# Acceptable condition to discharge a  horse after operation?



## cptrayes (5 September 2013)

Before I send off a ginormous howler to my vet practice, do you think it's acceptable that I picked my horse up from hospital today looking like this?  The rusty colour is dried blood from an operation two days ago. There has been no new bleeding since the operation, that blood is 48 hours old. I paid £36 a day livery for him to be in their care.


http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-SbutIUtV41s/Uiiq7DEbGmI/AAAAAAAABCk/nB3ebhgyIpQ/s1600/Ace's+back+day+2.jpg


Or am I making a fuss about nothing?


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## OLDGREYMARE (5 September 2013)

No I don't think that it is acceptable at all


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## springtime1331 (5 September 2013)

I agree, I would expect my horse returned without blood stains if at all possible. On the flip side, I'd like to use the opportunity to publicly praise Newmarket equine centre who were performing diagnostics on my mare a couple of weeks ago. Someone, I presume on of the grooms, had taken the trouble to wash her tail, oil her feet, groom her till she polished and had applied the most beautiful quarter markings. Completely unasked for, but brought a massive lump in my throat to see her walk off the lorry. What a wonderful team to go to so much trouble.


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## Booboos (5 September 2013)

To be honest I think you are being a bit unreasonable. Usually you pay for part livery at vets which means mucking out, feeding, rugging but not grooming. At the same time the vets and nurses provide medical care but I would not take that to include grooming the horse. The operation site is nice and clean which is the important bit as far as the veterinary care goes. If, for example, they had turned your horse out in a muddy field as part of its recovery would you expect them to groom the mud off him? I would suggest not.


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## cptrayes (5 September 2013)

Booboos said:



			To be honest I think you are being a bit unreasonable. Usually you pay for part livery at vets which means mucking out, feeding, rugging but not grooming. At the same time the vets and nurses provide medical care but I would not take that to include grooming the horse. The operation site is nice and clean which is the important bit as far as the veterinary care goes. If, for example, they had turned your horse out in a muddy field as part of its recovery would you expect them to groom the mud off him? I would suggest not.
		
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What if the owner has a blood phobia Boobos? What about flies being attracted to the dried blood? Is £36 a day not enough  to pay, not including any of the medical care, that's extra, for a horse to be washed off or brushed off some time in two whole days?   £256 a week doesn't sound like a part livery to me.


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## glenruby (5 September 2013)

Flies are not generlly attracted to dried blood to be fair. Also, by brushing your horse following surgery they would be raising dust and given the op that has just been carried out on your horse he is probably a bit bruised. That does appear to be blood from peri/post op in which case i would be expecting them not to bother him by doing unnecessary cleaning. However if he was there 3-5 days then I would think there would be cause for complaint. The surgery was yesterday, right?


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## cptrayes (5 September 2013)

glenruby said:



			Flies are not generlly attracted to dried blood to be fair. Also, by brushing your horse following surgery they would be raising dust and given the op that has just been carried out on your horse he is probably a bit bruised. That does appear to be blood from peri/post op in which case i would be expecting them not to bother him by doing unnecessary cleaning. However if he was there 3-5 days then I would think there would be cause for complaint. The surgery was yesterday, right?
		
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No the surgery was 48 hours before, the blood is what he came out of surgery like, there has been no new blood since. A vet apologised at the time he came out of theatre for him not being clean. I assumed she would instruct a groom to complete the washing off task while he was still wet, but she didn't. I didn't touch him because he was brand new out of the operation. The blood is nowhere near the operation site or any place where he would be sore, which is scrupulously clean. The failure to complete the clean-up is inexplicable.


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## glenruby (5 September 2013)

To be honest, if it were my horse I'd have more important things to be focusing my energy on than a patch of dried blood. And no I would not be cleaning it off when he was fresh out of surgery but maybe today.


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## Gloi (5 September 2013)

I wouldn't particularly expect my horse to be cleaned up away from the operation site, it's not doing any harm. The staff don't know how any of the horses will react to being washed down so better not to risk upsetting them and possibly disturbing the operation site.


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## cptrayes (5 September 2013)

Good for you glenruby.  

Personally, when I've spent over £2000 with a supplier I expect better service.


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## glenruby (5 September 2013)

You didn't pay a "supplier". And you didn't pay £2000 for grooming. I'm sure that was never mentioned in the quotation. It may look good from a practice point of view and most practices do send horses home clean and usually groomed but it does depend on the situation. Still no reason to send a "howler" but if you are getting that het up about it it might be worth mentioning in passing to your vet next time.


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## Nicnac (5 September 2013)

OK, those who think this is ok, let's turn it around.  You pick your husband/wife/daughter/son etc. up from hospital after they've had major surgery and get them home, help them to undress and find quite a bit of dried blood quite some way from the site of the operation.  Bet  you'd be unhappy!

CPT - I wouldn't be happy as doesn't take much to have sponged him down before you pick him up as obviously healthy enough to come home.  On the other hand, I wouldn't go loopy at the vets, but definitely mention it as part of post-op communication/visits.


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## cptrayes (5 September 2013)

Gloi, They had already washed him down, just not well enough, while he wAs heavily sedated. This blood is nowhere near the operation site. . A vet was embarassed about his condition immediately post op but no one did anything.


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## cptrayes (5 September 2013)

glenruby said:



			You didn't pay a "supplier". And you didn't pay £2000 for grooming. I'm sure that was never mentioned in the quotation. It may look good from a practice point of view and most practices do send horses home clean and usually groomed but it does depend on the situation. Still no reason to send a "howler" but if you are getting that het up about it it might be worth mentioning in passing to your vet next time.
		
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I certainly DID pay a supplier. I had a choice of two others locally and another several elsewhere.


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## glenruby (5 September 2013)

Personally i wouldn't send a horse home with blood stains (apart from fresh standing castration) to be fair but i stand by my original sentiment that it does not deserve a "howler". Mention it to the vet at a post op check.


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## cptrayes (5 September 2013)

glenruby said:



			Personally i wouldn't send a horse home with blood stains (apart from fresh standing castration) to be fair but i stand by my original sentiment that it does not deserve a "howler". Mention it to the vet at a post op check.
		
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That's fair. I'm uptight because this wasn't the only problem. I don't want to write here about the rest.


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## cptrayes (5 September 2013)

Surgeon was a fantastic, by the way.  Did a marvellous job for me and jeepers creepers the horse can flex his back like a longbow!!


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## GermanyJo (5 September 2013)

I was a vet nurse in an equine clinic in the 90s, horses in our care did not go home with 2 day old blood on them, I would wonder about the post op care when the nurses can't be bothered to make the horse look respectable, no one would expect a 1 hour grooming session, but removing dried blood post op should be a minimum surely ??


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## The Fuzzy Furry (5 September 2013)

cptrayes said:



			Surgeon was a fantastic, by the way.  Did a marvellous job for me and jeepers creepers the horse can flex his back like a longbow!!
		
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Good news then 

To be honest, I'd not be impressed but would not go 'into one', but I'd be having a quiet word with head vet nurse on the yard & also in the office to mention you feel a bit let down as horsey still has deitrus (blood) from the op & ask if this is common practice.

Occasionally, things can get overlooked, maybe this wasn't a priority - perhaps they have been run off their feet with casualties? Who knows, but until you mention it in a reasonable way, you wont know


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## AdorableAlice (5 September 2013)

Nicnac said:



			OK, those who think this is ok, let's turn it around.  You pick your husband/wife/daughter/son etc. up from hospital after they've had major surgery and get them home, help them to undress and find quite a bit of dried blood quite some way from the site of the operation.  Bet  you'd be unhappy!

I was sent home with dried blood down my rib cage after breast surgery and left in a stained gown over night - and yes I was most unhappy.

On the horse point of view, I wonder if the surgery had an emergency colic or similar come in at the same time the horse was on his way out.  The grooms would have dropped everything.
		
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## cptrayes (5 September 2013)

No, everything the whole three days he was there was scheduled and non emergency. 


Sorry about your bad experience


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## noodle_ (5 September 2013)

When my horse was in horsepital... (not surgery), she was immactulate groomed.....she went in dragged out the field (emergancy), the technicians cleaned her up the next day and she was immaculate....

i didnt expect that clean....but was nice

i wouldnt go ape**** OP.....but i would mention it yes !


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## cptrayes (5 September 2013)

GermanyJo said:



			I was a vet nurse in an equine clinic in the 90s, horses in our care did not go home with 2 day old blood on them, I would wonder about the post op care when the nurses can't be bothered to make the horse look respectable, no one would expect a 1 hour grooming session, but removing dried blood post op should be a minimum surely ??
		
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Well I certainly thought so. I'm glad someone who's done the job thinks so too.

That picture is after I rubbed a load off, as well. It was much worse than that.


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## Cortez (5 September 2013)

Well, are you paying for surgery/fixing the problem or grooming? I assume you can do the grooming yourself (cosmetic), but not the surgery?


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## criso (5 September 2013)

When your horse is in hospital on top of the operation and surgeons fees and drugs and other consumables; there is a separate and quite high charge for livery (my local one is just over £30 a day).  I get very detailed breakdowns on exactly where my money went.  There  are equine techs/grooms whose job it is to look after the horses in addition to the vets and assistants and students who take care of the veterinary side.

I have had to rush a horse up without time to groom the mud off his legs and got my horse back mud free.  I have had two in for surgery and never had any blood other than around a drain and that was constantly cleaned.

So yes I would be a little surprised if it came back like that.


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## cptrayes (5 September 2013)

Cortez,


I paid £750 plus VAT for the surgery. I paid separately for every drug he's been injected with. And I paid £36 a day for livery.

For thirty six quid would you not expect him properly washed down after surgery?  As someone else has pointed out to me elsewhere, the fluids that come out of wounds burn healthy skin. On a medical basis alone it should have been removed. Never mind the customer service.


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## noodle_ (5 September 2013)

oh should have said my livery was close to £70 a day....that hurt a lot lol.


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## Jesstickle (5 September 2013)

Nicnac said:



			OK, those who think this is ok, let's turn it around.  You pick your husband/wife/daughter/son etc. up from hospital after they've had major surgery and get them home, help them to undress and find quite a bit of dried blood quite some way from the site of the operation.  Bet  you'd be unhappy!

CPT - I wouldn't be happy as doesn't take much to have sponged him down before you pick him up as obviously healthy enough to come home.  On the other hand, I wouldn't go loopy at the vets, but definitely mention it as part of post-op communication/visits.
		
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I have had to wash off dried blood from myself post surgery. Didnt bother me!

More than once actually. Assumed it was normal!


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## cptrayes (5 September 2013)

noodle_ said:



			oh should have said my livery was close to £70 a day....that hurt a lot lol.
		
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Whoooooaaaaaaaahhh!!!!!


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## mightymammoth (5 September 2013)

I don't think it's acceptable and I wouldn't be happy either.


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## SusieT (5 September 2013)

I would assume there has either been a massive oversight or the horse was sore or they didn't want to get more dirt near the op site. I would ring and query it as if it is an oversight it should be recitified for future animals.


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## cptrayes (5 September 2013)

He wasn't sore Susie, I can poke him everywhere except the actual incisions. I think maybe the best thing for me to do is send the picture to the head of the practice without much comment. It speaks for itself really.


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## Girlracer (5 September 2013)

I don't think that is acceptable. 

For £36 a day livery I reckon they could manage a few moments to make the horse look presentable. 

Very un-professional IMO, perhaps insure there wasn't a good reason for if though as it just seems such a huge oversight you have to wonder if it was intentional. 

I would be feeling the same as you though, I would be extremely un-happy.


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## dogatemysalad (5 September 2013)

Unacceptable. It would indicate to me that standards of care from the yard staff were not as high as they should be.

Incidentally, vet did a couple of nerve blocks on the yard recently and he cleaned all the blood off the horse's white socks immediately afterwards. There was no medical reason, he just thoughtful and thorough.  

 The head nurse at the local equine hospital runs a very tight ship, horses, stables and yard are immaculate whatever time you turn up.


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## Shooting Star (5 September 2013)

no, not acceptable in my view & would be most unhappy too. My lad was in liphook last week and he even came home with squeaky clean manly bits having arrived with it totally filthy (surgery not related to that area!) - now that's what I call service!


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## soulfull (5 September 2013)

I would ask why it wasn't washed off. 
Not acceptable post op hygiene in my book

When much had his psd surgery and the first full length leg bandage was removed his whole leg was spotless despite being Palamino coloured legs


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## cptrayes (6 September 2013)

Shooting Star said:



			no, not acceptable in my view & would be most unhappy too. My lad was in liphook last week and he even came home with squeaky clean manly bits having arrived with it totally filthy (surgery not related to that area!) - now that's what I call service! 

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Wow ! Service indeed.


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## Pinkvboots (6 September 2013)

I think anyone who was looking after the horse after the op could have took the trouble to wash it off, it would have taken all of 5 minutes if I had seen any horse like that I would have washed it off, regardless of what kind of livery it had been on and although I have never been a vet nurse I have looked after many horses on part and full livery, I also think that as there are other issues that have not made you happy the dried blood is just going to seem much worse than it would be if it had been the only thing that had not been right.


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## Patterdale (6 September 2013)

cptrayes said:



			What if the owner has a blood phobia Boobos? What about flies being attracted to the dried blood? Is £36 a day not enough  to pay, not including any of the medical care, that's extra, for a horse to be washed off or brushed off some time in two whole days?   £256 a week doesn't sound like a part livery to me.
		
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If the owner has a blood phobia, and wants to keep horses, then they should just harden up IMO. 
Flies aren't attracted to dried blood. 
And yes, that is a lot for part livery, but as its a hospital not a livery yard then you can't really compare can you?



glenruby said:



			To be honest, if it were my horse I'd have more important things to be focusing my energy on than a patch of dried blood. And no I would not be cleaning it off when he was fresh out of surgery but maybe today.
		
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Totally agree. 



cptrayes said:



			Surgeon was a fantastic, by the way.  Did a marvellous job for me and jeepers creepers the horse can flex his back like a longbow!!
		
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And you're considering sending them a 'howler'? Nice! 'Thanks for the surgery guys, glad you did a good job but it was the grooming I was more bothered about! Here follows a summary of my fury etc etc!' 



Cortez said:



			Well, are you paying for surgery/fixing the problem or grooming? I assume you can do the grooming yourself (cosmetic), but not the surgery?
		
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Quite. 

I'm glad I'm not one of your 'suppliers' cptrayes. You sound like a total nightmare!


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## cptrayes (6 September 2013)

Pinkvboots said:



			I think anyone who was looking after the horse after the op could have took the trouble to wash it off, it would have taken all of 5 minutes if I had seen any horse like that I would have washed it off, regardless of what kind of livery it had been on and although I have never been a vet nurse I have looked after many horses on part and full livery, I also think that as there are other issues that have not made you happy the dried blood is just going to seem much worse than it would be if it had been the only thing that had not been right.
		
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Yes it's a bit camels and straws 

I'm trying to focus on how incredible the increase in flexibility in his back is. I've written a mild 'is this right?' Email and sent it to the head of practice, who knows me well, with the photo.

I have also asked not to be billed for the day before surgery, because I took him in a day early at their request, but nothing whatsoever was done with him until an hour before the operation. I was going to just pay up on that, but this has changed my mind.

I just need to pop outside and stab the poor pincushion again now. He's on the most gigantic doses of antibiotics as a precaution.


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## ameeyal (6 September 2013)

Dried blood would not bother me.


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## cptrayes (6 September 2013)

ameeyal said:



			Dried blood would not bother me.
		
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Dried blood doesn't bother me either. Lack of service I think I've paid handsomely for does though.


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## Jesstickle (6 September 2013)

SusieT said:



			I would assume there has either been a massive oversight or the horse was sore or they didn't want to get more dirt near the op site. I would ring and query it as if it is an oversight it should be recitified for future animals.
		
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I rarely agree with susieT but on this I couldn't agree more!

The horse was probably sore and wants leaving alone, why not just ask before getting all high and mighty with your poor vet!  Just because he will allow you, his owner that he knows, to touch it doesnt mean he would let a poor vet nurse who he doesnt know and now has every reason to distrust! 

That expensive livery pays for your horse to be monitored closely day and night, not for grooming!


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## ameeyal (6 September 2013)

Your original post was about " is dried blood acceptable" { that's me getting straight to the point}
It is obvious {sp} it goes a lot deeper than dried blood, if you had mentioned every thing else in your post, { other than dried blood} people might have agreeded with you more.


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## cptrayes (6 September 2013)

Jesstickle said:



			I rarely agree with susieT but on this I couldn't agree more!

The horse was probably sore and wants leaving alone, why not just ask before getting all high and mighty with your poor vet!  Just because he will allow you, his owner that he knows, to touch it doesnt mean he would let a poor vet nurse who he doesnt know and now has every reason to distrust! 

That expensive livery pays for your horse to be monitored closely day and night, not for grooming!
		
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Did you read my reply to Susie?

The horse was not sore anywhere near that blood.


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## cptrayes (6 September 2013)

ameeyal said:



			Your original post was about " is dried blood acceptable" { that's me getting straight to the point}
It is obvious {sp} it goes a lot deeper than dried blood, if you had mentioned every thing else in your post, { other than dried blood} people might have agreeded with you more.
		
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People agreeded with me plenty as it was thanks


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## lachlanandmarcus (6 September 2013)

I don't think it's acceptable so long after the op unless caused by it not having been done as a result of an influx of emergency cases, and to me it would lead me to question the standards of care more widely. Which as you've mentioned you have other issues with that, possibly kind of fits in....

Of course owners don't expect a full grooming bath and brush up but I don't think that removing dried blood from the horse is in the same scale, it's just basic care.


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## cptrayes (6 September 2013)

lachlanandmarcus said:



			I don't think it's acceptable so long after the op unless caused by it not having been done as a result of an influx of emergency cases, and to me it would lead me to question the standards of care more widely. Which as you've mentioned you have other issues with that, possibly kind of fits in....

Of course owners don't expect a full grooming bath and brush up but I don't think that removing dried blood from the horse is in the same scale, it's just basic care.
		
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My thought entirely. When I picked him up, two nurses and his vet were sitting in the office.

I really must go and puncture him instead of lying here being lazy!


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## YasandCrystal (6 September 2013)

I am with you on this OP - Unacceptable imo.  When my WB went to Newmarket despite his aggressive behaviour he was groomed daily for the fortnight he was there. He always looked immaculate, as did my mare who spent 3 weeks there; the grooms were lovely.  They have high standards at AHT and I would expect no less for the high livery charges.  I also know that the vets expected to be seeing a 'clean' horse. Every speck of sawdust when he rolled  in the stable was removed before presentation to Sue Dyson.  It's not just about presentation it's about care and comfort of the horse. Most horses enjoy the touch of a kind hand whether that is being sponged or groomed and it is that 'time' that you are also paying for in the livery charge.


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## Jesstickle (6 September 2013)

cptrayes said:



			Did you read my reply to Susie?

The horse was not sore anywhere near that blood.
		
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Yes, which is why I said how the horse reacts to YOU isn't indicative of how he would react to a NURSE. Did you read my reply?! Clearly not!

If you don't want  opinions don't ask for them. I wouldn't give a **** about a bit of dried blood if the vet had fixed my horse. I would just be grateful my horse had come out of it in one piece.  Many people feel the same. That's fine isn't it? We all have opinions and you asked for them. You aren't going to change mine with your whining. My horse had a GA and surgery. I was incredibly grateful she was alive and relatively happy after it. I really didn't resent a single penny of the money I spent on livery as I know she was checked constantly all through the night and through the day and fed an endless stream of hay etc to keep her occupied. I couldn't have provided that level of care at home as I work and can't be there in the day and can't be up all night. If I had paid an outsider to check my horse every four hours all night it would cost a damn sight more than £36 a day by the time they had mucked out, hayed, watered three times as well.

If you want to question it with the vet question it but you said you're going to go in all guns blazing. Why?!
Why not just politely enquire?


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## Buddy'sMum (6 September 2013)

cptrayes said:



			When I picked him up, two nurses and his vet were sitting in the office.
		
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Did you not ask one of them why he hadn't been cleaned? Honestly, in this situation, I'd just be grateful the op had gone well and he was coming home.

The last (and I mean LAST) time one of mine was in hospital, when I went to visit him I found him weaving away like an old pro because the idiots had put him in a stable across from a weaver, so being a dimwit yearling he joined in. Did I go ballistic! Took a lot longer than 5 mins with soapy water and a sponge to put right!


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## cptrayes (6 September 2013)

Deleted


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## cptrayes (6 September 2013)

Jesstickle said:



			Yes, which is why I said how the horse reacts to YOU isn't indicative of how he would react to a NURSE. Did you read my reply?! Clearly not!

If you don't want  opinions don't ask for them. I wouldn't give a **** about a bit of dried blood if the vet had fixed my horse. I would just be grateful my horse had come out of it in one piece.  Many people feel the same. That's fine isn't it? We all have opinions and you asked for them. You aren't going to change mine with your whining. My horse had a GA and surgery. I was incredibly grateful she was alive and relatively happy after it. I really didn't resent a single penny of the money I spent on livery as I know she was checked constantly all through the night and through the day and fed an endless stream of hay etc to keep her occupied. I couldn't have provided that level of care at home as I work and can't be there in the day and can't be up all night. If I had paid an outsider to check my horse every four hours all night it would cost a damn sight more than £36 a day by the time they had mucked out, hayed, watered three times as well.

If you want to question it with the vet question it but you said you're going to go in all guns blazing. Why?!
Why not just politely enquire?
		
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How lovely and supportive your post is 

The horse was happy to be handled by anyone. They were injecting him without any problems,  he would let them wash or brush him.

You've missed an earlier post of mine. I did not go in all guns blazing. I took advice from people on here and sent a mild email to the head of the practice.


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## cptrayes (6 September 2013)

Buddy's Mum, I am grateful that the surgeon, who is a freelance who could have operated on him anywhere with a hospital, did a fantastic job.

Why does that mean that I can't get upset about the lack of care shown by a nurse or stable hand  employed by the practice?

If you flew on a safe flight but you didn't get the meal you had paid for, does that mean you can't complain about the meal because you had a great pilot?


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## cptrayes (6 September 2013)

Buddy'sMum said:



			Did you not ask one of them why he hadn't been cleaned.
		
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No. As I explained very early on, the vet that came out of theatre with him apologised to me about what a bad job had been done cleaning him up. I assumed she woukd have it put right. When she didn't, there was simply no point in saying anything more.  I just wanted him home, so I loaded him up and left. 

It's a stressful enough situation without feeling you have an obligation to performance appraise your vets staff.


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## Patterdale (6 September 2013)

It's a bit of dried blood. 
Your horse is fine, the op was a success (I'm guessing because of the skill and diligence of the staff, not just pure luck) and he is home healthy and happy, with a clean, and not infected wound. 
However, you were considering sending them a howler because he had a bit of dried blood on his side. 

My opinion is that you are just being whiny tbh. You strike me as someone who likes to be up in arms about something. 

I feel for the poor veterinary team who have cared for your horse and put him through a successful op, and instead of a thank you card will be receiving a photo of a bit of dried blood and a guilt trip.


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## cptrayes (6 September 2013)

It's 'whiny' people like me who improve poor service for grateful people like you 

I don't know why some people are still so deferential about the service sold by vets.  Do you give your car mechanic a thankyou card? He is at least as skilled as a vet nurse, so if not, why not?

Don't feel too sorry for the vet team. I paid part of their wages the last two months. Without me being there to whine someone might have lost a job.


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## Buddy'sMum (6 September 2013)

cptrayes said:



			No. As I explained very early on, the vet that came out of theatre with him apologised to me about what a bad job had been done cleaning him up. I assumed she woukd have it put right. When she didn't, there was simply no point in saying anything more.  I just wanted him home, so I loaded him up and left. 

It's a stressful enough situation without feeling you have an obligation to performance appraise your vets staff.
		
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Yes, of course it was a stressful situation but surely would have been better to have the chat face to face than to come away and spend a day or two getting more and more wound up about it?

Btw, I've been on plenty of business class flights where I've not had the meal I ordered (and paid a fortune for) but have never felt the need to shred the airline staff for it. But I don't sweat the small stuff - as long as I get to my destination, I'm a happy bunny!


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## Patterdale (6 September 2013)

cptrayes said:



			It's 'whiny' people like me who improve poor service for grateful people like you 

I don't know why some people are still so deferential about the service sold by vets.  Do you give your car mechanic a thankyou card? He is at least as skilled as a vet nurse, so if not, why not?

Don't feel too sorry for the vet team. I paid part of their wages the last two months. Without me being there to whine someone might have lost a job.
		
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Are you for real!? 

FTR, NO, I do NOT send my mechanic a thank you card.....but then my car is not a living thing to whom I am extremely attached. 
Oh, and congrats on single-handedly propping up the whole of the customer services industry. I hadnt realised that it was all down to you, so kudos on that.

Cptrayes, judging by this thread and previous ones you seem to be an absolute nightmare. So as you didn't really want opinions, ill change my answer - 

OMG, dried blood, REALLY!!? You're KIDDING!! How is your horse still BREATHING!? ANYTHING could have happened! Nasty letter???? I'd scrape off the evidence and send it to them as proof! Good op result you say??? Pfffft, that's not the POINT! Your horse had DRIED. BLOOD. On his fur! His ACTUAL FUR! What's the world coming too!? 
And you say you paid £36 a DAY for this?? And no one could find an hour to give him a good strapping!? SHOCKING! Once you pay for 2 nurses to check him round the clock, the overheads on a vet hospital (which can't be much, COME ON!) and the other costs, there should have been plenty left!
I am actually OUTRAGED on your behalf! Go forth, complain, COMPLAIN like you never have before, and save all the rest of us poor consumers from poor service.


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## cptrayes (6 September 2013)

Ummm who was it you thought was going round looking for a fight?


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## Sandstone1 (6 September 2013)

I think you are right to complain.   vets are a business like any other and you are paying for it.  I would be concerned about the level of nursing care in the practice if they think its ok to send a animal home like that


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## Biglets Mummy (6 September 2013)

I don't think its really acceptable but I wouldn't go too mad.I would complain quietly how disappointed you are. My boy had emergency colic 5 years ago. raced to surgery 20 miles away after being in the field when it happened. He was covered from top to bottom in mud and was in hell of a state. he survived the operation and when I visited at 8 the next morning I couldn't believe my eyes. Big was immaculate! He was gleaming.Spotless. Not one inch of mud on him. It made me cry.When I thanked the lovely nurse she said in her Australian accent " Well when you are feeling a bit crook you still want to feel clean don't you?" I felt the cleanliness reflected the level of care my boy got.I visited every day,all at different times, for his remaining 14 days and he was always spotless.I think it boils down to standards and as an owner it does comfort you that someone cares enough to ensure your boy is clean and tidy.However I would be chuffed with a good result from the surgery !!!! Good Luck in his recovery xxx


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## dogatemysalad (6 September 2013)

Why be happy with mediocre care ?
I prefer high standards and the omission of a two minute job is an indication that other tasks are done in a slap dash way.  

I'm with you on this one, CPTrayes.


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## A1fie (6 September 2013)

Patterdale said:




Are you for real!? 

FTR, NO, I do NOT send my mechanic a thank you card.....but then my car is not a living thing to whom I am extremely attached. 
Oh, and congrats on single-handedly propping up the whole of the customer services industry. I hadnt realised that it was all down to you, so kudos on that.

Cptrayes, judging by this thread and previous ones you seem to be an absolute nightmare. So as you didn't really want opinions, ill change my answer - 

OMG, dried blood, REALLY!!? You're KIDDING!! How is your horse still BREATHING!? ANYTHING could have happened! Nasty letter???? I'd scrape off the evidence and send it to them as proof! Good op result you say??? Pfffft, that's not the POINT! Your horse had DRIED. BLOOD. On his fur! His ACTUAL FUR! What's the world coming too!? 
And you say you paid £36 a DAY for this?? And no one could find an hour to give him a good strapping!? SHOCKING! Once you pay for 2 nurses to check him round the clock, the overheads on a vet hospital (which can't be much, COME ON!) and the other costs, there should have been plenty left!
I am actually OUTRAGED on your behalf! Go forth, complain, COMPLAIN like you never have before, and save all the rest of us poor consumers from poor service. 




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Funniest post ever!


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## puppystitch (6 September 2013)

I think you've done the right thing. It's easy to feel outraged when emotions are high. I wouldn't be happy with this either - yes, blood is expected after surgery and if you'd picked him up straight away - fine. But 48 hours later is too long! It's nothing to do with how much you've paid or whether it's a vet nurse's job to groom the horse, it's all about the comfort of the post-op pony. I expect the hair was matted and crispy under the blood and would have been uncomfortable (yes, only mildly, but still uncomfortable) for the horse that is possibly already unavoidably uncomfortable post-surgery. I would expect that the livery cost is high precisely because the horse is being regularly monitored - to me that includes monitoring for comfort, and anything that could be done to improve his comfort should have been done - and that includes a gentle brush / sponge to clean him up. A bit of dried blood isn't the end of the world, and not worth a really grumpy letter but definitely worth a polite enquiry - it's the timeframe that's the worry really. Lovely to hear all these stories of horses coming back polished and sparkling though - what a relief after the stress of worrying during surgery!


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## xspiralx (6 September 2013)

No I would not be very happy. It is not as if you are asking for him to get 'an hour of good strapping' - sponging off some blood is a 30 second job and it isn't good enough to be lax on that IMO.


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## fatpiggy (6 September 2013)

Biglets Mummy said:



			I don't think its really acceptable but I wouldn't go too mad.I would complain quietly how disappointed you are. My boy had emergency colic 5 years ago. raced to surgery 20 miles away after being in the field when it happened. He was covered from top to bottom in mud and was in hell of a state. he survived the operation and when I visited at 8 the next morning I couldn't believe my eyes. Big was immaculate! He was gleaming.Spotless. Not one inch of mud on him. It made me cry.When I thanked the lovely nurse she said in her Australian accent " Well when you are feeling a bit crook you still want to feel clean don't you?" I felt the cleanliness reflected the level of care my boy got.I visited every day,all at different times, for his remaining 14 days and he was always spotless.I think it boils down to standards and as an owner it does comfort you that someone cares enough to ensure your boy is clean and tidy.However I would be chuffed with a good result from the surgery !!!! Good Luck in his recovery xxx
		
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In your case they probably cleaned him as part of prepping for the operation - would you want your broken leg fixed while you were still covered in mud from where you fell off???

My horse went into Leahurst for observation for a week and her livery was just skipping out, feeding and watering.  I went down and groomed her for an hour every night after work (80 mile round trip) to cheer her up and see for myself that she was ok.  I wouldn't have dreamed of expecting nurses/grooms to do that.  They were far too busy dealing with a yard full of other horses, many of which were very seriously ill - the one in the stable next door was recumbant the entire time and wasn't expected to live.  

As for myself, I left hospital with dried blood from where they took out the chest-drain below my armpit before they left me go, and after I had my wisdom teeth out I had dried blood smeared in my hair and on my face.  I probably alarmed a few people on the bus mind you!


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## Moomin1 (6 September 2013)

cptrayes said:



			My thought entirely. When I picked him up, two nurses and his vet were sitting in the office.

I really must go and puncture him instead of lying here being lazy!
		
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Puncturing him is probably a bit unnecessary!


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## cptrayes (6 September 2013)

Moomin1 said:



			Puncturing him is probably a bit unnecessary!
		
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Impossible to get 45 ml of depocillin into a muscle without Moomn   he's been SO good about it, too.



As an update, I have received an apology from the head of the practice saying that it was totally unacceptable, so we can put it behind us now and get on with the rehab, which is only six weeks to getting back on him.  He is so loose and flexible it's a joy to see.


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## scots (6 September 2013)

If its a back op(kissing spine) they won't wash down as bandage quickly to wake horse up. I know mine looked like that after ks surgery - they get them out of surgery as soon as poss, need area to dry to get bandage to stick.

Just read ur update. Glad they apologised and glad ur horse looking better and looser


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## cptrayes (6 September 2013)

They DID  wash him down. The operation site had been completely washed off, they just didn't finish the job. It was a standing sedated ligament desmotomy. He was not bandaged.


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## Goldenstar (6 September 2013)

cptrayes said:



			It's 'whiny' people like me who improve poor service for grateful people like you 

I don't know why some people are still so deferential about the service sold by vets.  Do you give your car mechanic a thankyou card? He is at least as skilled as a vet nurse, so if not, why not?

Don't feel too sorry for the vet team. I paid part of their wages the last two months. Without me being there to whine someone might have lost a job.
		
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I have to agree I am with you at least partly on this I just don't understand people who are grateful to the vets .
I admire vets who are good at their jobs and respect their skill and professionalism they provide a service for which I pay, but then I have similar view of surgeons .
I would be calmly pointing out to the pracise that you where not happy with the condition of the horse on discharge and that you sent him in clean and think he should have been returned that way.
My vet has issues with horses arriving for surgery filthy so it goes both ways sometimes.
But in the big scheme of thing the horse is through surgery in one piece and that's the main thing.
But I think it would put in my mind they are not to be trusted with my horses as in patients in the future  it's sloppy and that would bother me.


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## flaxen (6 September 2013)

I am an equine nurse and we never ever sent horses home looking like that, he would have been cleaned off that evening if hed  had a morning surgery or the following morning if hed been done in the afternoon. 

All horses got a brush over every day, feet picked out when mucked out and those that had had surgery had a sponge wash if necessary to remove sweat marks from being recumbant, even colic surgeries were clean and sparkly the next day!

We had a referral surgical colic come in in mid winter living out 24/7, you couldnt even tell what colour it was meant to be it as it was coveredc in such thick wet mud, it was power washed before surgery to remove as much as possible to reduce comtamination to theatre and then we finished the next day after hed had surgery, when his owners came to visit him you couldnt even tell hed been unrugged colicing in sludge other than his post surgical additions ( belly band, iv fluids, stomach tube and muzzle ) and he was grey!!

Had we ever dared send a horse home anything other than spotless we wouldhave had the biggest b*ll*cking ever, and we didnt have grooms employed us nurses did all the inpatient care, nursing and yard duties. 

There was no reason for that horse to be discharged with blood on it.


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## MileAMinute (6 September 2013)

Patterdale said:



			It's a bit of dried blood. 
Your horse is fine, the op was a success (I'm guessing because of the skill and diligence of the staff, not just pure luck) and he is home healthy and happy, with a clean, and not infected wound. 
However, you were considering sending them a howler because he had a bit of dried blood on his side. 

My opinion is that you are just being whiny tbh. You strike me as someone who likes to be up in arms about something. 

I feel for the poor veterinary team who have cared for your horse and put him through a successful op, and instead of a thank you card will be receiving a photo of a bit of dried blood and a guilt trip.
		
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This, 100%.


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## cptrayes (7 September 2013)

I find it quite interesting how many people on this thread approve of someone who is paid to do a job not doing it properly..

Luckily, the head of the practice does not agree with you and neither do any of the people who have posted who have actually done the job themselves.


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## Sandstone1 (7 September 2013)

cptrayes said:



			I find it quite interesting how many people on this thread approve of someone who is paid to do a job not doing it properly..

Luckily, the head of the practice does not agree with you and neither do any of the people who have posted who have actually done the job themselves.
		
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I agree with you. This thread, along with a couple of others prove how much the standard of horse care andknowledge are slipping.  That people think its ok is worrying.


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## twiggy2 (7 September 2013)

would people feel differently if it was their dog that had been sent home in the same condition after pre-booked surgery?


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## Booboos (7 September 2013)

cptrayes said:



			I find it quite interesting how many people on this thread approve of someone who is paid to do a job not doing it properly..

Luckily, the head of the practice does not agree with you and neither do any of the people who have posted who have actually done the job themselves.
		
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I think you are misunderstanding how some vet surgeries work. For example my old vet surgery in Shrops farmed out the livery side of things so that you paid one bill for vet services and one bill for livery services. The livery included mucking out, feeding and rugging, not grooming. I can easily imagine a situation where the nurses in a very busy but relatively small referral practice got called away to another skilled veterinary task and your horse's small amount of dried blood on his side was missed - hardly worth stopping the press for!

Large teaching hospitals may well have student vets and student nurses who are more available to do general jobs like grooming and tidying up horses.

You do come across as a bit ungrateful, focusing on something so minor...and do remember that you asked for opinions!


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## cptrayes (7 September 2013)

Booboos said:



			I think you are misunderstanding how some vet surgeries work. For example my old vet surgery in Shrops farmed out the livery side of things so that you paid one bill for vet services and one bill for livery services. The livery included mucking out, feeding and rugging, not grooming. I can easily imagine a situation where the nurses in a very busy but relatively small referral practice got called away to another skilled veterinary task and your horse's small amount of dried blood on his side was missed - hardly worth stopping the press for!

Large teaching hospitals may well have student vets and student nurses who are more available to do general jobs like grooming and tidying up horses.

You do come across as a bit ungrateful, focusing on something so minor...and do remember that you asked for opinions!
		
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I have not tried to prevent anyone expressing an opinion. Are you suggesting that I should not reply?

You don't know anything about where he was yet you are trying to tell me how they are managed. I can assure you that there were plenty of staff with time to have done the job.

You also don't know what I am focussing on, you only know that in between caring for my horse I spent a bit if time on HHO asking if I would be right to complain, and toned down my message to my vet as a result of the answers I got.   Why don't you also comment on my other thread saying how good the surgeon was and tell me what a nice grateful person I come across as?

I do not understand why I am expected to be grateful that people who have been paid to do a job do it.  

Do you expect me also to be grateful to the car mechanic who fixes my brakes? If he gets it wrong I could kill someone, yet no one expects me to send him a thank you card.


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## Booboos (7 September 2013)

cptrayes said:



			I have not tried to prevent anyone expressing an opinion. Are you suggesting that I should not reply?

You don't know anything about where he was yet you are trying to tell me how they are managed. I can assure you that there were plenty of staff with time to have done the job.

You also don't know what I am focussing on, you only know that in between caring for my horse I spent a bit if time on HHO asking if I would be right to complain, and toned down my message to my vet as a result of the answers I got.   Why don't you also comment on my other thread saying how good the surgeon was and tell me what a nice grateful person I come across as?

I do not understand why I am expected to be grateful that people who have been paid to do a job do it.  

Do you expect me also to be grateful to the car mechanic who fixes my brakes? If he gets it wrong I could kill someone, yet no one expects me to send him a thank you card.
		
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You were at Cotts!  It's kind of easy to figure out from the details of the operation you described.

I haven't seen your other thread.

No idea what the car mechanic has to do with it although I suspect some people do thank their car mechanics! I got mine a bottle for getting my horsebox registered in France.


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## Dry Rot (7 September 2013)

Just an aside really as I don't like commenting on something I don't know much about!

But is blood best washed off a horse or brushed out when dried? A serious question as it is well known you should not try to wash blood off a tweed coat but let it dry and then brush it out. That way it doesn't leave a stain.

As for the dog example, I'd expect one of my dogs to lick the blood off and would be quite happy for him to do so as saliva has antiseptic properties. 

Not sure I would want a lot of water, possibly contaminated with hair and faeces (?) anywhere near a wound so another possible reason to leave the area dry.

Personally, I don't think I'd be making a fuss. After all, the vet has apparently done a good job in all other respects. But I might raise a polite query asking a few pointed questions at a later date!


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## sarahann1 (7 September 2013)

I'd be grateful I got my horse back well, I'd probably not even think twice about it. Ok so they could have possibly tidied up a bit better, but meh, horse is fine, operation is done. They may well have had emergencies come in, or staff go off sick so nice things got missed off in favour of essentials. 

Life is just to short for me to get het up over stuff like that.


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## star (7 September 2013)

Dry Rot said:



			Just an aside really as I don't like commenting on something I don't know much about!

But is blood best washed off a horse or brushed out when dried? A serious question as it is well known you should not try to wash blood off a tweed coat but let it dry and then brush it out. That way it doesn't leave a stain.

As for the dog example, I'd expect one of my dogs to lick the blood off and would be quite happy for him to do so as saliva has antiseptic properties. 

Not sure I would want a lot of water, possibly contaminated with hair and faeces (?) anywhere near a wound so another possible reason to leave the area dry.

Personally, I don't think I'd be making a fuss. After all, the vet has apparently done a good job in all other respects. But I might raise a polite query asking a few pointed questions at a later date!
		
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Dog saliva is not antiseptic - that is such an old wives tail. Dog mouths are disgusting places. Why is it all my wounds heal amazingly when the owner bothers to keep the buster collar on but those who think it's not necessary are the ones who come back in with horrible wound infections and need antibiotics or restitching.


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## star (7 September 2013)

My horse came home from stifle arthroscopy with dried blood all down his back legs but to be fair they did apologise profusely but had left it because it was winding him up attempting to clean it.. He doesn't let people touch his legs apart from me and probably would have hurt someone if they'd persisted.
I wouldn't send a dog home from surgery with dried blood on it and I know I would get it in the ear from the owner if I did. I can see how that blood was missed though as it blends in with the coat on first look. Vet nurses tend to be running round trying to do ten things at once and pretty sure it was a genuine mistake rather than a deliberate lack of care. I would be mentioning it to the vet in charge but no more than that.


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## cptrayes (7 September 2013)

Booboos said:



			You were at Cotts!  It's kind of easy to figure out from the details of the operation you described.
		
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He wasn't even in that country


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## MadJ (7 September 2013)

I really hope this doesn't come across as patronizing, it's not meant like that at all.
You've had a stressful time worrying about the operation and I'm guessing from what you've written were anxious about the treatment before your horse was admitted, due to past experiences.
I wouldn't have been best pleased with seeing blood on my horse had I been you and like to think I'd have pointed it out to someone before I took my horse home. However I'm not you, I wasn't in the highly emotive, worrying situation that you were and I wonder if now you've got your horse home and in your care, you're a little calmer and able to think clearer about the error.
When my horse had surgery I had a very public fit over a lead rope.
We all need to vent sometimes and that's the impression I got from your posts.
Good luck with your boy for the future and I hope he continues to improve.


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## Flame_ (7 September 2013)

I would put this on the "slightly irritating things that do not matter list" and move on happy that the op went well.


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## cptrayes (7 September 2013)

Med J exactly. And no not patronising at all, just someone who is able to identify and empathise with  normal human frailty. What a nice person you are


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## Dry Rot (7 September 2013)

star said:



			Dog saliva is not antiseptic - that is such an old wives tail. Dog mouths are disgusting places. Why is it all my wounds heal amazingly when the owner bothers to keep the buster collar on but those who think it's not necessary are the ones who come back in with horrible wound infections and need antibiotics or restitching.
		
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_Wound licking
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

A gorilla licking a wound
Wound licking is an instinctive response in humans and many other animals to an injury. Dogs, cats, rodents and primates all lick wounds.[1] The enzyme lysozyme is found in many tissues and is known to attack the cell walls of many gram-positive bacteria, aiding in defense against infection. Tears are also beneficial to wounds due to the lysozyme enzyme._

Lots more where that came from if I didn't already know that you are talking nonsense.


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## star (7 September 2013)

Oh yes because Wikipedia is a far superior source of information to 5yrs at vet school and 7yrs in practice dealing with wound infections from idiot owners who let their dogs lick their wounds.


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## putasocinit (7 September 2013)

Did horse have an op on its back, maybe they dont want to hurt her by brushing so close


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## cptrayes (7 September 2013)

star said:



			Oh yes because Wikipedia is a far superior source of information to 5yrs at vet school and 7yrs in practice dealing with wound infections from idiot owners who let their dogs lick their wounds.
		
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Just what I was going to write 

And of course you did not say that dog saliva did not contain antibacterial substances, just that by the time it's been over  the dogs filthy teeth, it's not sterile.


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## HashRouge (7 September 2013)

I wouldn't have been happy OP, and would certainly have mentioned it to the practice.


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## Dry Rot (7 September 2013)

star said:



			Oh yes because Wikipedia is a far superior source of information to 5yrs at vet school and 7yrs in practice dealing with wound infections from idiot owners who let their dogs lick their wounds.
		
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Perhaps you would kindly quote your references so we may all gain from your knowledge.

Or is it anecdotal?


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## cptrayes (7 September 2013)

Dry Rot, licking a wound when you are a wild animal with no access to a vet may well be a good survival strategy.

That does not mean that it is as safe for a domestic dog to lick its vet-sterilized wounds as it is to be prevented from doing so.

Do you know of any research that has been done on this, it would be interesting to know?


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## twiggy2 (7 September 2013)

if I licked my bum and other neither regions i would not then think my mouth was a clean enough environment to lick at an open wound, especially one that has been cleaned and sterilized for me by a doctor. but if i was in a jungle/lost in the dessert then licking ti to clean it when first cut may be preferable to just leaving it dirty form the off.


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## cptrayes (7 September 2013)

twiggy2 said:



			if I licked my bum and other neither regions i would not then think my mouth was a clean enough environment to lick at an open wound, especially one that has been cleaned and sterilized for me by a doctor. but if i was in a jungle/lost in the dessert then licking ti to clean it when first cut may be preferable to just leaving it dirty form the off.
		
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Now why couldn't I have thought of that example - brilliant


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## ozpoz (7 September 2013)

..off to practice more yoga.. : )

I'm glad your horse is ok after his op. I don't think being returned bloodstained looks good. It suggests  "lazy ineffective groom", which isn't what anyone expects to pay livery for.


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## cptrayes (7 September 2013)

ozpoz said:



			..off to practice more yoga.. : )

I'm glad your horse is ok after his op. I don't think being returned bloodstained looks good. It suggests  "lazy ineffective groom", which isn't what anyone expects to pay livery for.
		
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I recommend the ligament snip to anyone with a horse with kissing spines. His back is already clearly longer and more 'open', and all he has is five tiny wounds with three, four or five staples in that already look as if they were just scratches. I should be riding again in just six weeks  .  This has to work, it's his last chance because he is unrideable now, even on two Bute a day 

I keep meaning to start yoga, do you recommend it?


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## Dry Rot (7 September 2013)

cptrayes said:



			Dry Rot, licking a wound when you are a wild animal with no access to a vet may well be a good survival strategy.

That does not mean that it is as safe for a domestic dog to lick its vet-sterilized wounds as it is to be prevented from doing so.

Do you know of any research that has been done on this, it would be interesting to know?
		
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Since most animals lick their wounds, research would seem to be unnecessary as if it was harmful they would have become extinct by now.

Sorry, this is my last post on this thread. I'm off to join the adults.


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## cptrayes (7 September 2013)

All that means is that animals that are not treated by a vet which  lick their wounds live more often than those which don't lick their wounds.

It can also be the case, without any conflict, that more animals which have been treated by a vet heal without complication if they are not allowed to lick their wound.


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## ester (7 September 2013)

Yeah animal in the wild v domesticated vet treated animal not quite the same ...... No natural source of chlorhexidine (sp) 

Hope it resolves his issues CP


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## brucea (8 September 2013)

Last time I had my horse into the vet hospital, he came away spotless and I came away covered in blood and other things. Wearing a white polo shirt was one of my less bright moves.

They didn't offer me a clean shirt. I think that was appalling service. ;-)


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## Booboos (8 September 2013)

star said:



			Oh yes because Wikipedia is a far superior source of information to 5yrs at vet school and 7yrs in practice dealing with wound infections from idiot owners who let their dogs lick their wounds.
		
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There are a couple of studies indicating that saliva glund hypofunction leads to longer healing times, e.g.:
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/027823919290397I

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1600-0714.1991.tb00916.x/abstract


while patients with deminished saliva gland function suffer from various mouth conditions due to the loss self-cleaning and anti-bacterial functions of saliva:
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/...sCustomisedMessage=&userIsAuthenticated=false

The anti-bacterial action of saliva is well documented in textbooks, e.g.:
http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/BF01354542#page-1

and here is an account of how saliva promotes wound healing:
http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10561-004-4367-7#page-1


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## Gingerwitch (8 September 2013)

cptrayes said:



			Yes it's a bit camels and straws 

I'm trying to focus on how incredible the increase in flexibility in his back is. I've written a mild 'is this right?' Email and sent it to the head of practice, who knows me well, with the photo.

I have also asked not to be billed for the day before surgery, because I took him in a day early at their request, but nothing whatsoever was done with him until an hour before the operation. I was going to just pay up on that, but this has changed my mind.

I just need to pop outside and stab the poor pincushion again now. He's on the most gigantic doses of antibiotics as a precaution.
		
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Now you see - being able to stab your poor pincushion is a luxuary around here - so you maybe ought to re think your standards before this one is withdrawn from you too - and your vet bill would be significantly higher with the necessary visits or you may be on powder antibiotics


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## ester (8 September 2013)

The thing is booboos is yes it does help to some extent in the wild with a dirty wound. With s veterinary treated sterile insicion probably best to keep it sterile . Fwiw lysozymes not all good given that it is used to encourage spores to germinate


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## Booboos (8 September 2013)

ester said:



			The thing is booboos is yes it does help to some extent in the wild with a dirty wound. With s veterinary treated sterile insicion probably best to keep it sterile . Fwiw lysozymes not all good given that it is used to encourage spores to germinate 

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I can't see any support for what you say in the research I mentioned but perhaps you had something else in mind?

BTW how long would a sterile insicion remain sterile in a stable, or home or garden?


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## tabithakat64 (8 September 2013)

Shooting Star said:



			no, not acceptable in my view & would be most unhappy too. My lad was in liphook last week and he even came home with squeaky clean manly bits having arrived with it totally filthy (surgery not related to that area!) - now that's what I call service! 

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My gelding also had his man bits cleaned when he was in Rossdales having his tendon op, he was also groomed top to toe. 

The SGUO was really well cared for when she was in RVC.

I thought that level of care was standard in all the vet hospitals.... 
I would complain if I'd received the service the original poster has...


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## ester (8 September 2013)

I was on phone so not in a position to reference sterile being better than licking. The lysozyme bit is right... although might only result in gas gangrene I suppose! 

With regards to maintenance of sterility once home depends on whether it is dressed or not/the quality of the stitching/stapling.


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## ester (8 September 2013)

Also I am not sure that demonstrations of oral healing with reduced salivatory function or its affect on cell lines  can be easily extrapolated to externals wounds. Fwiw I am coming at this mostly from a microbiologists point of view. I'm not so up on growth factors and cytokines which is mostly where the promotion of healing affects are coming from. They do help but it's a question of whether they help over and above the detrimental bacteriology affects.


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## cptrayes (8 September 2013)

brucea said:



			Last time I had my horse into the vet hospital, he came away spotless and I came away covered in blood and other things. Wearing a white polo shirt was one of my less bright moves.

They didn't offer me a clean shirt. I think that was appalling service. ;-)
		
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the least they could have done was hose you down brucea, did they not even do that    ???


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## glenruby (8 September 2013)

I don't have the time to look u references for this (too many other papers to be reading right now) but what Star is talking about is not anecdotal, it is evidence based medicine - which incidentally is more applicable to real life situations than research papers are. I too have had many many cases where a dog (in particular) licking its wounds results in wound breakdown and infection. One patient in particular had 23 post op appointments and 3 subsequent ops as a result of the owner refusing to leave on his buster collar. He doesn't lick it at all (I counted - and pointed out 13 incidents of licking in the consult alone!). It was a surgical wound for tumour removal and ended up costing the practice a small fortune. I counted a minimum of 18 hours of unchargeable consult time on that one! Grrr!


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## cptrayes (8 September 2013)

Gingerwitch said:



			Now you see - being able to stab your poor pincushion is a luxuary around here - so you maybe ought to re think your standards before this one is withdrawn from you too - and your vet bill would be significantly higher with the necessary visits or you may be on powder antibiotics
		
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i don't understand your point?  i've been injecting horses for 30 years overseen by seven different vet practices in various parts of the country. everywhere has been more than happy to allow competent and confident owners to do their own antibiotic intramuscular jabs.

if my permission to do so rested on accepting poor quality care for my horse i would not continue to use that vet anyway. Would anyone/???


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## cptrayes (8 September 2013)

Booboos said:



			I can't see any support for what you .................. or garden?
		
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Hi Booboos, i would not want you or anyone else to believe that i had complained about a hospital that my horse was never at. Did you see my post telling you that your assumption that he was at a place in Wales was incorrect?


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## cptrayes (8 September 2013)

and since this thread is still running, the update today is that the patient is doing stunningly well, with all five keyholes almost as flat as pancakes and the horse able to turn small circles with no apparent issues at all.


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## cptrayes (10 September 2013)

It beggars belief.  I have a reply from the head of the practice saying that my horse left hospital clean and he sweated the blood out in the lorry on the way home.

So now not only did they leave my horse with blood on him from the operation, they are saying that I am lying about it.

I have, of course, changed vet.


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## ester (10 September 2013)

sweated blood..........*raises eyebrows!


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## twiggy2 (10 September 2013)

WOW biggest mistake any business can make is to tell a lie, if they had held their hands up and said they were really sorry for what was an error and should not have happened but 'that they hope X is doing really well and recovering nicely' most clients would have accepted their apology.

I would move and take it further if I felt the practice manager had lied to me.


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## TwoStroke (10 September 2013)

Blimey, it might have been a small issue resolved with an apology if they'd been decent about it.

Fwiw the last time I had a horse back from the vets he'd had the works; full groom, mane & tail de-tangler, the lot - more than he ever got at home, lol. That was Willesley (B&W Equine).


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## cptrayes (10 September 2013)

The reply actually says he was groomed on both days. For goodness sake, he's moulting summer coat. Do they think I can't tell when a short coated moulting horse horse has or has not been groomed?


The funny thing is, I got a 'sorry' by text which I was really happy with and had let the issue drop from my mind, then yesterday the Practice Head was trying to ring me. I guessed with a sinking heart that he was about to come out with a load of excuses and managed to keep the conversation in emails so that I did not run any risk of losing my rag on the phone. What I did not expect was an email back effectively accusing me of making the whole thing up.

For anyone joining us newly, this is what we are talking about. My horse was released from hospital looking like this. I had already cleaned a lot more off him before this photo was taken. 

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-SbutIUtV41s/Uiiq7DEbGmI/AAAAAAAABCk/nB3ebhgyIpQ/s1600/Ace's+back+day+2.jpg


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## Buddy'sMum (10 September 2013)

But I thought the head of the practice had already apologised to you? Looks like they've been on the H&H forum and this is an attempt at damage limitation (although you've been careful not to mention names in this thread, I imagine most people in our area know who you used).


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## Capriole (10 September 2013)

They suck big time at damage limitation if that's the case.


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## cptrayes (10 September 2013)

Buddy'sMum said:



			But I thought the head of the practice had already apologised to you? Looks like they've been on the H&H forum and this is an attempt at damage limitation (although you've been careful not to mention names in this thread, I imagine most people in our area know who you used).
		
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Yes I have a very nice apology from last week which I accepted and was happy to forget the whole thing.

Then he rang me yesterday. His email today is after getting an email from his staff, which he quotes in his email to me, saying that they left the horse clean, that he was groomed both days, and that therefore this blood must have been sweated out in the lorry on the way home.

None of which is true.


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## 2horsesnomoney (10 September 2013)

well I am a vet nurse in equine practice and i would NOT send a horse home with that, i ensure horses are groomed and clean on discharge the only time that is not always possible is if the wound is still discharging  but i would do my best and explain to the owner why.When i was training i was always told "owners think if you do a tidy neat job with the outside they have faith that you have done a good job on the inside" and i think this is true. I think it is not nice and not what you would expect but if you are happy with everything else maybe just mention it but dont make a big deal out of it. Cptyres hope your horse is ok ?


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## cptrayes (10 September 2013)

He's doing extremely well thanks 

I didn't make a big deal out of the blood with the Practice, I sent a very mild 'is this right' question. But I am making one out of being told it didn't happen!

I have had another apology for that now, so that's probably the end of it. I certainly hope so.


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## 2horsesnomoney (10 September 2013)

Oh dear what a nightmare, sorry hadnt read all of the thread when i posted but not good PR for them to suggest you are lying! and i didnt mean you were making a big deal of it, 

I have had a similar situation when my horse was reffered for colic surgery and they knew I was a VN and wrote snidy comments in his notes which I reqested after i lost him. Not proffessional! You know which practices to use in future now as do i! 
I hope that is the end of it for you and i hope your horse continues to make a good recovery, how did you find the surgery? Its fairly new type of surgery i understand but much better prognosis etc


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## dogatemysalad (10 September 2013)

cptrayes said:



			and that therefore this blood must have been sweated out in the lorry on the way home.
		
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Wow, your horse has a stigmata. Its a miracle. 

D'you know, there's been some complete drivel (my new favourite word) about dogs healing wounds by licking and owners not being permitted to inject etc. Its been an entertaining read. 

BTW, if the hospital begins with N, could you pm me please. Have a horse going in,  but could easily take it to a tried and trusted hospital a bit further away.


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## cptrayes (10 September 2013)

No, not N, N has very god reports around here 

Good luck.



I was told about the op by my vet, their surgeon has already done 12 around the country (he's freelance)

I thoroughly recommend him, he worked his socks off for me and my horse not to saw off any spinal processes. His name is Graham Monroe.


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## dogatemysalad (10 September 2013)

Thanks CPT, that's reassuring. 

Will take note of that name too, its always handy to have a recommendation with horses being as ingenious at finding ways to give their owners sleepless nights.


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## Pasha (10 September 2013)

OP I am glad your horse's operation was a success and he is back home  I wouldn't have been happy with my horse being sent home like that. I wouldn't have said anything, but I understand why you did! I don't understand them then arguing with you about it though! WTF? Regardless if they thought they were right or wrong, they should just take it on the chin, you are the client!

Says she who paid full whack for livery whilst her horse was in horspital, provided hay and feed (as I though the Op was stressful enough withour a diet change) and went up everyday, skipped our and groomed him myself without a discount!!! At the time I was just petrified for him and not thinking of anything else, but in hindsight I should have asked for a discount! You live and learn!


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## cptrayes (10 September 2013)

I kicked myself afterwards for not taking his food!  As you say, why take the risk of changing feed at a stressful time. 

Something astonishing has happened today, a week after the op.  When we bought him at four he was straight. At five, he developed a front leg action where his knee swung slightly outward and his foot did a mild kind of 'reverse dish'

Yesterday I thought I was imagining it, but today there's no mistaking it, his knee is now coming through straight. That's unexpected! I'll be thrilled if it stays like it.


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## Capriole (10 September 2013)

cptrayes said:



			Something astonishing has happened today, a week after the op.  When we bought him at four he was straight. At five, he developed a front leg action where his knee swung slightly outward and his foot did a mild kind of 'reverse dish'

Yesterday I thought I was imagining it, but today there's no mistaking it, his knee is now coming through straight. That's unexpected! I'll be thrilled if it stays like it.
		
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That's interesting!


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## brucea (10 September 2013)

Wow, your horse has a stigmata. Its a miracle.
		
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Most horses are holey by the time the vet finishes with them


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## cptrayes (11 September 2013)

brucea said:



			Most horses are holey by the time the vet finishes with them 

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And of course the patient is behaving like a saint


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## ester (11 September 2013)

I am going to take the role of the forum police and suggest that this thread needs to stop now


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## Amymay (11 September 2013)

cptrayes said:



			No the surgery was 48 hours before, the blood is what he came out of surgery like, there has been no new blood since.
		
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If the surgery was only 48 hours before - then I can understand why it wouldn't have been washed off.  You simply wouldn't want to run the risk of disturbing the surgery site.


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## Goldenstar (11 September 2013)

Sweating blood that's just so funny if it was not so awful.
Cptrayes your right to move and perhaps tell your friends .
Idiots .


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## cptrayes (11 September 2013)

amymay said:



			If the surgery was only 48 hours before - then I can understand why it wouldn't have been washed off.  You simply wouldn't want to run the risk of disturbing the surgery site.
		
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Well if you actually read the thread  or looked at the photo, Amymay, you would know that the surgery site was immaculately clean and that this  blood and a lot more that I had already rubbed off was nowhere near it.


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## cptrayes (11 September 2013)

Goldenstar said:



			Sweating blood that's just so funny if it was not so awful.
Cptrayes your right to move and perhaps tell your friends .
Idiots .
		
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to be fair I guess they meant that it was down in bis coat and came out with the sweat.

Two problems with this.

1. He didn't sweat.

2. He has a TB type thin coat which could not possibly have held that much blood.


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## Capriole (11 September 2013)

cptrayes said:



			Well if you actually read the thread  or looked at the photo, Amymay, you would know that the surgery site was immaculately clean and that this  blood and a lot more that I had already rubbed off was nowhere near it.
		
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Didn't you say he'd been washed down at the op site but they didn't finish cleaning him off. Half assed job. 

Interesting thread to see how people's standards and expectations of standards in others differ though.


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## Amymay (11 September 2013)

cptrayes said:



			Well if you actually read the thread  or looked at the photo, Amymay, you would know that the surgery site was immaculately clean and that this  blood and a lot more that I had already rubbed off was nowhere near it.
		
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I did 

You were after opinions and I gave one.......


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## cptrayes (11 September 2013)

amymay said:



			I did 

You were after opinions and I gave one.......
		
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You gave an opinion contingent upon something which it was already clear from the thread was not the case.

Do try to keep up Ms May


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## Amymay (11 September 2013)

cptrayes said:



			Do try to keep up Ms May 

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Bully


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## cptrayes (11 September 2013)

I find that fascinating too, Capriole.  Still, however accepting people were of the actual blood, no one seems inclined to accept the denial that it happened.

I must stress that I have now had a complete apology and a request to know what they can do which would make me stay with the practice. Unfortunately I think we are too far gone for that now.

Patient is well and progressive staple removal has started. I've taken out two that were holding nothing together. Another 19 to go over the week.


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