# Ripped off by a natural horsemanship trainer



## vont (5 September 2012)

Hi all,
Just thought i would put a post up to warn you all about fake people out there.
I have had a trainer come to me and do natural horsemanship training with my horses for a year now, one of my mares was ready for backing and i put my trust into this person to do the right work.  Which saved me time to spend with my other horses.
My horse was at this persons for 12 weeks, i had to constantly ask when progress she was making as i was never kept updated.
My horse was an absolute angel when she left me, to the stage i could lay across her with rugs on and do anything around her, so could kids.
When i went to collect my horse i got told when i was an hour away that she was lame, when i got there she had a crack on her back hoof up to her coronay band but a big crack.  My horse travels perfect but she was an absolute nervous wreck travelling and when i unloaded her she started carting me around the place.
I left her to settle in and just watched her. Over the next few days i spent every minute with my horse, she was shaking everytime i went near her, coward her head away from me. I couldn't lift her feet up with out her rearing up, half her mane was missing, she had a white mark about an inch below her withers where something had rubbed her badly.
I've spent every waking hour with my horse since, crying my heart out that my gorgeous horse has ended up so upset and not the horse that left me.
We are now after several weeks finally starting to make progress and she is letting me touch her again and give her cuddles.
Amazingly enough this so called qualified trainer will not answer my messages now, knowing that they have done something to my horse.
Just a BIG warning to anyone that is even considering putting there horse to someone. Please don't get ripped off like i have and have the upset of seeing a different horse come back to you.


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## Hollycatt (5 September 2012)

So sorry this happened   Hope your horse learns to trust you again soon.


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## Natch (5 September 2012)

Blimmin nora. Hope she recovers soon.


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## Ladyinred (5 September 2012)

I feel so sorry for you and for your horse. We have only ever sent one of ours away and that was for some western training.. we were lucky, he was treated so well and we could visit any time. I wish you had the same experience.

Give her time, she will learn to trust you again. Maybe take some legal advice? I imagine someone could help.. BHS helpline? It won't help your girl right now but might save some others.


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## Florrie (5 September 2012)

I'm so sorry love.
Please keep us updated on your mares progress and thank you for the heads up!

Sending you and your mare hugs.


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## vulcan (5 September 2012)

Did this person take money up front from you for this service? What progress were you told she had made with it?Too many people out there trying to make a quick buck from genuine horse lovers.


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## tikino (5 September 2012)

thats shocking who was the person who had your mare


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## vont (5 September 2012)

Yes this person took money for it. 
Also told me that she was making excellent progress and was done daily to the stage she was ready to sit on her, but in 12 weeks i could of done it myself and be riding her. Like i said i near had her but needed someone on the ground daily to help.
We are taking it everyday as it comes, doing small amounts that the horse is happy with.

Thanks guys xx


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## BlairandAzria (5 September 2012)

Op don't name the person here, it will get the thread pulled, and you an infraction at least. 

Sorry you and your mare have had such a horrible experience. If you are a Bhs gold member I would definitely ring them for some free legal advice.


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## vulcan (5 September 2012)

What exactly did this person tell you they had done with your mare? Was there any written contract between you?I have recently had to contact BHS lawyers about a matter and they were very helpful.Good luck this shouldnt happen.


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## Marydoll (5 September 2012)

Did you check out their credentials as a trainer and go check their place out ?
It freaks me out the amount of people i see advertising, the most recent being backing and training £65 per week, with a pic of this pony going round a muck school with debris lying all around it


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## vont (5 September 2012)

Sorry won't name or shame on here.  But i am thinking of taking legal advice.

The person told me that they were picking up her feet daily, which was easy to do anyway, lunging her, tacking her up and lunging her and also said that they were desensitizing her by jumping up and down beside her and around her.
That bit i found a bit strange though. x


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## be positive (6 September 2012)

In 12 weeks they should have been riding her in all 3 paces, hacking out and you should have been able to go and see her working and ride her a few times before she came home. Even if she was fairly unhandled 12 weeks should have been enough to achieve all the above.

To return in the state you describe is appalling, I hope the mare recovers and suffers no long term trauma that affects her ridden future.


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## vont (6 September 2012)

Thanks, yeah I thought she should of been ridden in 3 paces and out riding to. I've backed all my horses myself, but thought this time i would put my trust into someone else to do it.
I did go down to visit her, but was not shown any work that was done, was only shown her in the field with a mature colt,which i wasn't to happy about and told the person to remove him, as i didn't want a foal.
It was hard to go down all the time to check on her down to the distance and mileage.


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## be positive (6 September 2012)

She was seriously turned out with a colt There may be another little problem ahead then, is this natural horsemanship being taken rather literally


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## vulcan (6 September 2012)

This is disgraceful.What size is the colt would he have managed to cover your mare?


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## vont (6 September 2012)

Seriously she was turned out with a mature colt. I near died, she is a sweetie but wow she is a flirt to. ha ha
No worries about any arrivals as she is in season finally now.
Oh yes the colt could of covered her very easily, they are both welsh sec d cobs.


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## tasel (6 September 2012)

I feel for you.

There are many people like this in the horsey world unfortunately. Not just natural horsemanship people. My mare is due to be rebacked, and I hate the thought of passing her on to someone else (she's challenging and I don't have enough time). We got burned the first time we sent her off (long story).

It seems to me that many horse trainers can't swallow their pride when they can't deal with a horse. They are prepared to ruin it instead!


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## vont (6 September 2012)

My mare has always been used as a broodmare and never spoiled as had never learned any bad habits. She was a very easy laid back mare who took everything in her stride, until this person done what ever they done.


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## Rose Folly (6 September 2012)

It's a very strange tale. Did you not have any references from people who had used this person before? Surely you didn't just send your horse off to someone purporting to pracise 'natural horsemanship'?


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## vont (6 September 2012)

The person advertised as a natural horsemanship trainer and was coming out to train one of my other horses for a whole year. I had spoken to several other peope that use the trainer.
Had been to view the premises my horse was going to.
Plus they used bitless bridles which i like to use myself as more humane form of treatment.


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## KVH (6 September 2012)

Said trainer wasn't in the south east, and fairly young by any chance?
So sorry to hear this.


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## Tinypony (6 September 2012)

Vont appears to be in Scotland.
Vont, if this trainer is affiliated to any organisation you could make a complaint.  
Apart from that, I must admit my mare would have been straight home as soon as I found her turned out with a colt.  Why didn't you ask to see what they were doing and check progress?  If you've started your own horses in the past I find it a bit hard to understand why you wouldn't want to see how they were approaching things.  It takes a long time for a hoof to crack up to the coronary band, didn't you notice her hooves becoming bad?  If the mare was too far away to visit regularly maybe it wasn't such a good idea to send her so far away, but surely you could have got there at least every couple of weeks.  She was there for 3 months!


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## pip6 (6 September 2012)

Close friend send her very sweet easy going youngster to trainer recommended by very large NH group (tip in the wording there). Went to see him every other weekend, never saw him ridden without buckstop which they claimed was essential as he was a 'difficult' case. Got so p155ed at them, poor condition of animal & lack of progress (due to him being so dangerous) took him home. Formerly happy horse just stood at back of field by hedge for 2 months until he learned to trust humans again. 

Left to recover. Sent to local nagsman for a month about a year later, backed him no bother. He has never bucked, reared, or put a foot wrong, Everyone thinks he is the most generous willing nature ever. I've ridden him, not long after being backed, he was such a gentleman.

Makes you wonder what they tried to do to him to force him into a place where he had to react. Wont name names to anyone, just never recommend him to anyone else.


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## Potato! (6 September 2012)

Something seems a little fishy here to me


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## Tinypony (6 September 2012)

pip6 said:



			Close friend send her very sweet easy going youngster to trainer recommended by very large NH group (tip in the wording there). Went to see him every other weekend, never saw him ridden without buckstop which they claimed was essential as he was a 'difficult' case. Got so p155ed at them, poor condition of animal & lack of progress (due to him being so dangerous) took him home. Formerly happy horse just stood at back of field by hedge for 2 months until he learned to trust humans again. 

Left to recover. Sent to local nagsman for a month about a year later, backed him no bother. He has never bucked, reared, or put a foot wrong, Everyone thinks he is the most generous willing nature ever. I've ridden him, not long after being backed, he was such a gentleman.

Makes you wonder what they tried to do to him to force him into a place where he had to react. Wont name names to anyone, just never recommend him to anyone else.
		
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I just don't understand this at all.  If you send a horse to a trainer - whatever the label - you keep an eye on things.  If they won't allow that, then that's a big clue not to use them of course.  See the horse ridden once with a buckstop?  Big questions to be asked, but probably wouldn't leave the horse there for it to happen again, as even Monty himself says it is a "tool of last resort".

I sent one of mine away once, for a couple of weeks practise with traffic etc when I didn't have the opportunity to do it myself.  It was a 1.5 hour round trip and I was there at the first training session and every other day.  If at any point I'd had concerns I'd have told him to stop work and she'd have been out of there.


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## fizzer (6 September 2012)

Usually people go and see their horses progress and get involved with the ground work and then eventually the riding process.

Have not heard of many cases when you just pick horse up without seeing what has been done.  Perhaps people do ?


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## jeeve (6 September 2012)

no matter who you send your horse to i think you should have a pretty good idea what they will do when the horse is there, have reccomendations, or know them personally, and be involved through out the period.

I sent my horse away for 3 months - but i knew th NH trainer, i had every confidence in him, I had seen what he had done with others horses, he had given me lessons, I was able to visit as often as i liked, and he involved me esp. towards the end in the training. A completely different experience to you, because my horse came back looking and being $1 million dollars.

but you do get rogues in every industry, including horses, I hope she turns out ok.


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## Tinypony (6 September 2012)

I think some people just want to hand a horse over to someone else, and then be given back the finished product.  Sorry if that upsets some people, it's just my personal opinion.  I organise clinics and other training.  I regularly get enquiries from people who need various help with horses but when I've explained that they will be learning to deal with the horse themselves I never hear from them again.  It's not that the trainer won't help them, but they aren't going to take the horse from them for 4 days and then hand it back "fixed".
I can't understand anyone sending their horse or pony away and not visiting regularly enough to ensure it is cared for properly.  Nor can I understand why you'd send it to a trainer if you didn't know how they worked extremely well, but at least you'd need to be able to go and see what was being done to your animal.


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## Dolcé (6 September 2012)

Tinypony said:



			I think some people just want to hand a horse over to someone else, and then be given back the finished product.  Sorry if that upsets some people, it's just my personal opinion.  I organise clinics and other training.  I regularly get enquiries from people who need various help with horses but when I've explained that they will be learning to deal with the horse themselves I never hear from them again.  It's not that the trainer won't help them, but they aren't going to take the horse from them for 4 days and then hand it back "fixed".
I can't understand anyone sending their horse or pony away and not visiting regularly enough to ensure it is cared for properly.  Nor can I understand why you'd send it to a trainer if you didn't know how they worked extremely well, but at least you'd need to be able to go and see what was being done to your animal.
		
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I agree totally with this!  Years ago I sent a young gelding of ours, who I considered dangerous, to a IH trainer. He never displayed the behaviour with her that he did with me other than in the first few minutes of her handling him.  It was absolutely essential that I had training in how to handle him, I had caused his problems and when he came back I used that training to ensure the bad behaviour didn't return.  He was away 3 weeks and came back started and what some would consider ridden away, it was his last chance before I would have had him PTS as dangerous.  I was mortified when I realised it was my fault.  We have just started one of our own youngsters, he went 2 weeks from start of training to his first show in a lead rein class.  He is not ridden away yet because we don't have the jockey to do that with but he will be soon as we can sort it.  This pony was well grounded and that makes all the difference, sounds like OP's was too and should have been an absolute doddle.  I really hope that you manage to get her back to normal and I would perhaps consider starting her yourself with professional help if necessary.


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## fburton (6 September 2012)

What sort of 'natural horsemanship' was it meant to be?


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## guido16 (6 September 2012)

This is very odd, I don't understand why you handed money over without seeing the work being done.

Why did you not go down and ride the horses. The place I use usually takes about 6 weeks, I go there a lot, they have me riding in the school and hacking out to make sure I am happy, plus they WANT me to watch the horse progressing.

I would also have removed the horse when I saw her in with a colt, and I would have told them I was coming down to watch her being schooled.

So sorry for you and your horse.


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## MiJodsR2BlinkinTite (6 September 2012)

Agree with poster above basically. Sorry!

My trainer is a natural horsemanship practitioner and she would never take on a horse for backing without the owner being there to (a) see what's being done and (b) basically take an interest.

She would expect the owner to be at her yard on a regular basis if she takes their horse for whatever reason, so they can see the way she's working with their horse; as she aims to educate both together, i.e. horse & rider - coz otherwise she says its just a waste of time basically.


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## Littlelegs (6 September 2012)

Sorry this has happened, but I do find it odd you only visited the once, & out with a mature colt should have rang alarm bells. There's bad in every profession, including nh, so not a fair reflection on all nh trainers.


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## vulcan (6 September 2012)

The way I read this was that vont had had this trainer to her other horses at home for a year so was lead to believe that she was as advertised.She therefore had no reason to question her capabilities or motives.It appears that this trainer lived a fair distance away from vont making it difficult for her to travel to see her mare but was sent pictures of progress being made.I just hope that vont can turn this mare around and get some satisfaction from the trainer.


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## Goldenstar (6 September 2012)

Never ever send a horse away to trainer without visiting regularly I did this and I regret it every day.


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## Crosshill Pacers (6 September 2012)

Goldenstar said:



			Never ever send a horse away to trainer without visiting regularly I did this and I regret it every day.
		
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Ditto. I've only got to look at my mare to feel an immense wave of guilt.


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## jhoward (6 September 2012)

tbh i wouldnt be surprised if op, is pulling a fast one to many oddities about their posts.


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## OWLIE185 (6 September 2012)

Clue!  If the trainer could get to her then she could have got to the trainer..........


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## rhino (6 September 2012)

OWLIE185 said:



			Clue!  If the trainer could get to her then she could have got to the trainer..........
		
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If they had the time and _their own transport_; not everybody does  Public Transport in that area can be worse than useless.


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## Goldenstar (6 September 2012)

rhino said:



			If they had the time and _their own transport_; not everybody does  Public Transport in that area can be worse than useless.
		
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I know this but when my disaster happened I was ill after a accident I was unable to drive I should have got someone to go even if I had pay a local vet ( not the trainers own to call in )
As soon as could drive that far  I went to a show unannounced I will never forget  what I felt when I saw her , all my fault too trusting and glad to have had one issue at a difficult time dealt with .
She ended up PTS it was a terrible experiance.


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## rhino (6 September 2012)

I understand that GS, and personally I wouldn't be willing to have my horse somewhere that I couldn't keep a very close eye on him, however I don't think it is as simple as Owlie was trying to make out. There are some hugely isolated areas around Inverness, I know, I've been lost there many times


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## CarolineJ (6 September 2012)

I agree with Rhino.  I may possibly know who this trainer is (I've PM'd the OP to find out if I'm right or not) and if it's the person I'm thinking of, they cover an absolutely huge area - and when I say 'huge' I mean about the size of Belgium.


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## vont (6 September 2012)

Hi, It is very isolated up here and at the time i didn't have transport which the trainer was aware of and said they would keep my updated with pics and mail so i knew how she was progressing. Once she had progressed enough i was going to be going down and staying down there so we could work together on everything the way my mare was taught.

I made the decision to remove my mare after not hearing about any progress made. And today myself with many hours in the rain, have managed to make a small amount of progress myself. 
Personally YES it is a mistake i made and i am now suffering for it, and after today I'm alot happier, but still along way off what she was.


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## TrasaM (6 September 2012)

You are not the only one who's been taken in by trainers. My friend got a lovely Arab gelding and he was sent away for over a month to be backed. Friend had backed a horse previousley but decided to get a professional this time. Baby came home after five weeks..was ok with lunging and would accept a bit and saddle but had not been sat on or ridden. Total waste of £800 ! Payment was made for horse to be fully backed. No harm had been done but just didn't get what she paid for.


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## popeyesno1fan (6 September 2012)

Everybody makes mistakes, big or small, and huge lesson learned here. Nobody is perfect, we all do our best, but sometimes things dont work out the way we wanted. 
I am "breaking" or starting, as I prefer to use, a fab 3 yr old mare for a friend. I am experienced in doing all the groundwork, It's what I'm good at. The mare is here a month, and is only lungeing in the last 10 days, I took it very slow wit her, as she was slightly handled, but really pushy, she was the boss beforehand. I worked with her inhand before attempting to put breaking tack on, and it worked. she has taken to everything really well. When she came here, you could hardly lead her, now i can put her out into the field/bring her in, with just a headcollar. Will be starting to drive her in long reins in the next few days, hopefully she will be just as good..... but her owner has only been here twice to see her, as firstly, she trusts me, and secondly, she is for sale, so doesnt want to be here too often, so she's not tempted to keep her. (she's worse than me at accumulating horses). I ring her every few days to let her know how we are getting on. I dont do the backing, but I have a guy that backs any horse i have in, as he has balls of steel and is so quiet and refined, no whips etc.... just goes about his job. I'm after getting really good as the person on the ground. He comes up to see the horse working for about a week before hand, and we have a chat before he gets on board, so i know what to do in specific circumstances. Touch wood, all good so far, so it's not all bad to send your horse away, you do need to know where you are sending your horse, though!!!!


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## noobs31 (6 September 2012)

So sorry for what happened OP you were extremely unlucky considering you felt you knew this trainer.  Sounds to me like he/she was out of depth (not down to your horse -with backing/breaking in general) and not ready to say so.

From what I have seen of NH trainers my main concern with many of them (and I'm talking the Big Names here) is that their qualifications are just too easy for them to come by.  Real horse sense cannot be taught in brief "courses" IMHO.


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## vont (6 September 2012)

Good luck Popeye hope it all goes well, sounds like you are doing a great job already.


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## vont (9 September 2012)

Just thought i would update you all. My mares nerves have calmed down a bit, and she is coming to me alot more now
But i do have a mega issue with her now. She was lifting all her feet up before. I thought she was playing up down to her nerves, but everyday when i'm trying to lift her feet up she is rearing and bucking like a bronco.
So have gone back to basics on running my hand down her legs until she is comfortable, then lifting and putting straight back down. Other than that things are going well and slowly.


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## rhino (9 September 2012)

All progress is good progress. Onwards and Upwards


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## vont (9 September 2012)

Thanks rhino. x


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## nimrod1 (9 September 2012)

I think its awful that not only has this "trainer" ruined what sounds like a perfectly sweet horse, but perhaps even worse is the fact that you have had to PAY for the privilage! Have you had much contact with this "trainer" since?


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## vont (9 September 2012)

Hi nimrod, I did ask the trrainer if there was any issues that was not brought to my attention when i pick up my mare.
but was told by the trainer that my mare settled well in the small herd and the trainer thinks that the issue is possibly with me and down to been in a different field.
But as i stated to the trainer my mare is very laid back and settled in with me fine when i first  got her, settled into the trainers herd fine, so why would the mare be so nervous coming back to it's owner and own surroundings that it has been used to for so long.
Every issue I have asked about has not been answered and been avoided in every possible way.
Best is I have been in the horse industry for 20 years now, I no how to read a horse inside and out.  the only reason she went to the trainer is i have another 2 i am working with as well.


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