# Annoyed with myself (riding)



## Joanne_Stockport (17 December 2014)

I just recently (this week) realised I have been giving my horse some really bad habits without knowing !


A bit of background information:
Started to ride 2 years ago ( I am in my forties) and bought my gelding (6 year old gypsy cob) a year ago from the riding school where I was having riding lessons.
He was not there for too long because he started misbehaving and was no use to the riding school. So bought him and sent him 3-4 months for schooling.
I was riding once a week while he was being schooled and he was going nicely. Moved him closer at the beginning of the year I have been having lesson most weeks.
It was going quite well (started jumping) until I found out I bought the wrong saddle (even though I was using a "saddle fitter") and he was having a little bit a back pain.
So after a couple of months off work to sort that out. 

Since back in May (before the saddle issue)I have not managed to get back to the way it was (riding wise)...actually getting worst and worst every week. 
It went from getting hard to get a canter to getting hard to get a trot and to "don't want to move anymore"!
I have to say that this is only with me , I had a few good riders and they could get him to do all those things (with effort !).
A month ago I got so frustrated (could not understand what I was doing wrong !) that I decided that, for the time being, I would give myself a break and start again fresh at some point. 

Every advice I was getting was : "squeeze him" and if he doesn't want to go forward "give him a big kick and a big tap with the crop".
Well I tried that over and over again and he was just getting more stubborn every time, the harder I kicked the less he would move !

I love my boy and I am determined to make it work ! 
So last week I decided to try a different instructor and that got my thinking ! (Actually stopped me sleeping for a few nights as I can sometimes get obsessed when trying to find a solution to a problem !). She thought me quite a few things during that riding lesson. 
Her method (which consist of giving very quick leg squeeze , adding tapping with the crop if he doesn't go forward) seemed to really work (but she was also lunging me so that helped too).
I have been thinking about what I have been doing when asking to go forward,etc.. Actually I realised that he just started to hesitate more and more but I did not push him on quick enough ! I basically let him decide what to do. And the big kicks did not work because I was waiting too long in between each and he would just not bother to move from that !

Since my lesson I rode him twice. The first time it took me 30 minutes to realised that I needed to apply more pressure (than during my lesson) ..he was not happy, bucked a few times and then off we went trotting (a forward trot that I never normally get) !
Tonight I tried the same and did not have to apply as much pressure as the time before so I think he is starting to understand what I am trying to do.

I have a lot of work to do now to try and do put thing right again ! I am feeling a lot more positive then a few weeks back.

So yes I am annoyed with myself for not seeing my mistakes !! I need to be a better rider for my boy !!

I hope to be able to put a nice update in a month or two (fingers crossed)


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## Mahoganybay (17 December 2014)

Don't be too hard on yourself, we are always learning, no matter how long we have been riding! I have only the occasional lightbulb moment with the rest of the time making mistakes. And, this is the reason horses are so wonderful, they forgive us.

All is not lost, you will pull it back with a good riding instructor, hard work and patience.

Good luck


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## Joanne_Stockport (18 December 2014)

Thanks Mahoganybay, I really hope I can improve things enough for the summer. 
If I can get the basics right (walk,trot canter) then I would like to have a go at TREC and go on pleasure rides with him.

I will work hard to improve myself to be the rider he needs !!


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## Pearlsasinger (19 December 2014)

If I have read your OP correctly, I would get a 2nd opinion on both his back and his new saddle.  Horses will do as little as possible, especially those suitable for a novice, but his reactions don't sound quite right to me.

If all is well, then perseverance with the new instructor sounds like the way to go.  You would also probably benefit from lessons on different horses, as one year's experience isn't very long before buying your own horse.  It is very easy for horse and rider to accommodate each other, even when all is going well, and for bad habits to creep in.


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## Joanne_Stockport (19 December 2014)

Pearlsacarolsinger said:



			If I have read your OP correctly, I would get a 2nd opinion on both his back and his new saddle.  Horses will do as little as possible, especially those suitable for a novice, but his reactions don't sound quite right to me.

If all is well, then perseverance with the new instructor sounds like the way to go.  You would also probably benefit from lessons on different horses, as one year's experience isn't very long before buying your own horse.  It is very easy for horse and rider to accommodate each other, even when all is going well, and for bad habits to creep in.
		
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His saddle is regularly checked every six months (last check was a week ago)  and his back and teeth too so no issues there. It is definitely a problem with me letting get again with too many things !
He is going very well on ground work/lunging now but that too was a learning curve , I just need to improve my riding enough to give him good, clear aids.

First lesson with the new instructor (on the lunge) when really well, he was going forward (walk, trot, canter) and listening to my aids.
I have another lesson Sunday so will see how that goes !

Would love to have lessons with other horses but to be honest time wise and money wise (unless I stop the lessons with my own horse ) it is not possible at the moment.
It's on my Christmas list to maybe father Christmas will be nice to me 

We are doing well when hacking (even though he is napping sometimes), the main issue is when schooling.

I know I bought him quicker that I was planning it myself (was going to wait another year before looking for one) but when he came up for sale I could not let him go to another home. I had quite a few sleepless nights thinking about it !!

A year to learn is not long I know but I did ride a wide variety of horses (mostly different cobs / riding school, I had 2 part loans (arab, TB type and riding holidays in Wales and France..love galloping on the beach..more scary is to ride in the Pyrenees !) 

Going to ride home this afternoon ..just hope the weather will get better !!


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## chestnut cob (20 December 2014)

Don't beat yourself up, everyone makes mistakes. No matter how long you've been riding or how experienced you are, sometimes it takes a while to realise things aren't working.
I do agree with the poster above who suggested a second opinion on the saddle - I've had several bad experiences with saddle fitters so it might not be a bad idea getting it checked again.  That said, horses do try it on and it could be just down to that.  He's worked out he can get out of work with a bit of mischievous behaviour, maybe he's a bit frustrated too as he doesn't understand quite what he's being asked, and suddenly that can get a bit out of control.
I think it's worth making sure you have regular lessons with your new instructor, maybe twice a week for a while until you feel you're really making progress.  One lesson a week isn't a lot and you can easily undo the good work from your lesson when you are riding alone - we all do that!!


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## meesha (20 December 2014)

If he is from the riding school he is probably bored to death of the arena and schooling and just switches off/shuts down.  I would be tempted to totally forget any school work for a few months and just enjoy hacking, you can practise most things out hacking and miles in the saddle will prove invaluable.  If he gets stuffy hacking maybe try different routes or boxing up somewhere fun (if you feel capable). Riding is meant to be fun for both you and horse don't put too much pressure on you both.

Edited to say, worth asking your instructor if she will hack out with you so you can get some tuition without him switching off.


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## Wiz201 (20 December 2014)

yes you can have lessons out on a hack as well as the school. They say with horses that are not responsive to the leg that less is more and keeping them interested with different transitions so they are not always expecting or anticipating what's going to happen so they have to listen.
You can also go back to basics and do some ground work - long reining is a good training method. If you get him used to moving off with voice commands then that means less kicking when you ride him again


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## JillA (20 December 2014)

Lots and lots of people go through a whole life blaming the horse and not realising they still have lots to learn, so a huge well done for having the right attitude. 
I don't know who your new instructor is but in Stockport you aren't far away from Emma Bailey, she is an Enlightened Equitation trained instructor and would be worth bearing in mind for future reference


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## Joanne_Stockport (20 December 2014)

Took a day off riding today and gave him a shower , I left him with a white tail,feathers,mane.
I'm sure when I go for my lesson tomorrow he will be covered in mud again ! Oh well...



chestnut cob said:



			Don't beat yourself up, everyone makes mistakes. No matter how long you've been riding or how experienced you are, sometimes it takes a while to realise things aren't working.
I do agree with the poster above who suggested a second opinion on the saddle - I've had several bad experiences with saddle fitters so it might not be a bad idea getting it checked again.  That said, horses do try it on and it could be just down to that.  He's worked out he can get out of work with a bit of mischievous behaviour, maybe he's a bit frustrated too as he doesn't understand quite what he's being asked, and suddenly that can get a bit out of control.
I think it's worth making sure you have regular lessons with your new instructor, maybe twice a week for a while until you feel you're really making progress.  One lesson a week isn't a lot and you can easily undo the good work from your lesson when you are riding alone - we all do that!!
		
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Saddle is definitely fitting correctly ! I did buy the wrong one when I first bought him then he started to have a little bit of pain (he was showing it with a lot of napping and tossing his head).
That was when things were going well back in June, then took a couple of months to find a good saddle fitter (Master Saddlers Qualified Saddle Fitter) get his new saddle and sort out his back. His saddle has been checked last week and every six months. 
I think you are correct it's a mix of him being stubborn and not understanding my cues. As I said he works well with good riders at the moment.



meesha said:



			If he is from the riding school he is probably bored to death of the arena and schooling and just switches off/shuts down.  I would be tempted to totally forget any school work for a few months and just enjoy hacking, you can practise most things out hacking and miles in the saddle will prove invaluable.  If he gets stuffy hacking maybe try different routes or boxing up somewhere fun (if you feel capable). Riding is meant to be fun for both you and horse don't put too much pressure on you both.

Edited to say, worth asking your instructor if she will hack out with you so you can get some tuition without him switching off.
		
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He was in a riding school for less than a year but yes at first I had to "kick" for each step but at some point before I had the saddle issue he would go at the slightest nudge ! I hope I can get back to that point !
I was hacking quite often up to 3-4 weeks ago but the weather is horrible at the moment. I do enjoy hacking with him but going away for the yard is hard work as he naps..sometimes a lot , sometimes it's not too bad...We do enjoy coming back so I normally practice transitions,etc, on the way back.
Would love to go somewhere with him (don't have transport though) , this is something I will do when the weather gets better.
I would love to go on a farm ride or on the beach (maybe that might get him a little excited for a gallop !) I did have a few good canters in a field near the yard (on the way back) that was fun.



Wiz201 said:



			yes you can have lessons out on a hack as well as the school. They say with horses that are not responsive to the leg that less is more and keeping them interested with different transitions so they are not always expecting or anticipating what's going to happen so they have to listen.
You can also go back to basics and do some ground work - long reining is a good training method. If you get him used to moving off with voice commands then that means less kicking when you ride him again
		
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I have been doing a lot of ground work, I lunge him quite often. He is extremely good with voice commands (stand, walk, trot, canter,faster,turn) but again once I am on him he ignores the voice commands for going faster. It did saved my life, one time in the summer he could not stand the flies and started galloping back to the yard and the only thing the made him stop was the voice command !
I need to learn how to do long reining...never done that.



JillA said:



			Lots and lots of people go through a whole life blaming the horse and not realising they still have lots to learn, so a huge well done for having the right attitude. 
I don't know who your new instructor is but in Stockport you aren't far away from Emma Bailey, she is an Enlightened Equitation trained instructor and would be worth bearing in mind for future reference
		
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thank you, I  will keep that in mind if it doesn't work with my new instructor. I can't really blame him when I see someone else riding him and he goes nicely !
Always very aware that I am novice, sometimes too much... thinking he is lame and he is not (walking on foot all the way back in case he is lame!).


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## Wiz201 (20 December 2014)

Joanne_Stockport said:



			I need to learn how to do long reining...never done that.
		
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just like lunging but with two reins, you have more control long reining than just lunging. I do it all the time with the driving ponies


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## Joanne_Stockport (21 December 2014)

Second lesson with new instructor was amazing ! 
No lunging this time so all my own work. He has never been so forward going (with me riding) ...ever !
We have a lot of work to do on turning as he tried to ignore me sometimes and on his left rein he likes to get right next to fence.

He even was cantering when I was just asking to trot more forward ! 

Just need to remember everything I learned when I am on my own...I feel like I know how to ride again ! 

So it is definitely a question of me not being clear enough and not taking no for an answer !

So happy !


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## JillA (21 December 2014)

Excellent, well done


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## Joanne_Stockport (27 December 2014)

I am still happy on how it is going. 
Still waiting to have my third lesson with new instructor (she is very busy) but he is getting more forward at walk and trot.
Canter is still a bit of a struggle and the trot to canter is when I am less balanced so that doesn't help. 
It's a big change from a couple of weeks ago when he was napping at each end of the arena (stopping) , not wanting to trot and canter.
I still think he was more forward during my lesson but I just need to work on this when I am on my own. 

There still a lot of work to do but I have a video from yesterday (the bucking is when I push him to go forward, he is just making sure I really mean it !):

https://vimeo.com/115440022

I hope to show improvements in the next months !!

Anyone new reading this and watching the video, he is constantly monitored for his saddle. teeth, back , etc.. The bucking is because I am pushing him to go forward...he is testing me a little ! And bear in mind I have been riding for 2 years in total so I'm aware I have a lot of work to do on my riding !


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## FestiveFuzz (27 December 2014)

I know you say the horse has back/tack/teeth checked regularly but he really doesn't look comfortable when you're pushing him forward and he's bucking.


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## Goldenstar (27 December 2014)

I would consider a lack of performance type work up from a vet I think .
It's not normal for horses to be that ungenerous IME .
And horses who are uncomfortable will often go better for experienced kick ass riders because it's easier than saying no to them .


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## Joanne_Stockport (27 December 2014)

Goldenstar said:



			I would consider a lack of performance type work up from a vet I think .
It's not normal for horses to be that ungenerous IME .
And horses who are uncomfortable will often go better for experienced kick ass riders because it's easier than saying no to them .
		
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I though it was pretty common for cobs to be more on the lazy side then on the forward going side (even thought I know some cobs can be forward)?

Would he not be the same when we are hacking? 
He is pretty forward going on the way back to the yard..no bucking too when hacking.

Not bucking on the lunge (with a rider) and easy to go more forward too...

He is bucking mainly when I use the crop when going into canter...doesn't do it if I only used my legs.


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## JillA (27 December 2014)

I think I can see what is wrong - I would suggest you ask your instructor for some lunge lessons to work on your seat, for both of you. Your seat isn't as independent as I would like to see it and you aren't completely in control of your legs and hands so that you have a tendency to bounce around on his back - can't be that comfortable, especially for him. Ask for some lessons in the lunge, with at least some of the time without stirrups, at walk to begin with and when that is secure, some trot. You will be able to stretch your legs down and back, sit deeper in the saddle and be much more in balance, so that you can be more balanced and less bouncy. If you have had his back and saddle checked that could be where the discomfort is coming from. It is early days for you - we were told to watch good riders and try to copy them so that is something for you between lessons, and you will get better and better, not just on your nice little cob but all sorts of horses. 
Mary Wanless has some videos on FB you might find useful. Good luck


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## JillA (28 December 2014)

And I just had another thought - you are only about half an hour away from New Barn at Ollerton, between Chelford and Knutsford, and they have a really good instruction on a simulator there. Might be a good investment to have a lesson or three on Rocky http://newbarnriders.webs.com/


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## Joanne_Stockport (28 December 2014)

JillA said:



			I think I can see what is wrong - I would suggest you ask your instructor for some lunge lessons to work on your seat, for both of you. Your seat isn't as independent as I would like to see it and you aren't completely in control of your legs and hands so that you have a tendency to bounce around on his back - can't be that comfortable, especially for him. Ask for some lessons in the lunge, with at least some of the time without stirrups, at walk to begin with and when that is secure, some trot. You will be able to stretch your legs down and back, sit deeper in the saddle and be much more in balance, so that you can be more balanced and less bouncy. If you have had his back and saddle checked that could be where the discomfort is coming from. It is early days for you - we were told to watch good riders and try to copy them so that is something for you between lessons, and you will get better and better, not just on your nice little cob but all sorts of horses. 
Mary Wanless has some videos on FB you might find useful. Good luck
		
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Yes I think you are right, I think my hands are the worst bit and my legs when I ask for a canter. It is ok if he goes straight into the canter but if he doesn't I start bouncing on him. On the video I did a walk to canter and not problem there. I can also do sitting trot to canter ..maybe I should practice a lot of transition between posting trot and sitting trot, that would probably help. I know my seat , legs and hands are not independent yet and I really have to concentrate all the time and think about what I am about to do ! Hopefully with practice and time this will get better. I used to do a lot of work with no stirrups (and bareback) but with the recent napping in the school and not going forward it was not really possible as it is even harder to balance if he is just barely trotting. I will ask for more lunging lessons and no stirrup work. 
His other evasion technique (he does is only on his left rein) is to get really close to the fence and have no other choice then to go back to walk so I need to really sort this one out very soon. I think I will work on that today. I will have a look at the videos you have suggested , thanks.



JillA said:



			And I just had another thought - you are only about half an hour away from New Barn at Ollerton, between Chelford and Knutsford, and they have a really good instruction on a simulator there. Might be a good investment to have a lesson or three on Rocky http://newbarnriders.webs.com/

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I tried a simulator a while ago but I am not sure it will be help that much as they are never as bouncy (trot) as my horse ! 
I did not know about that place so will keep it in mind if I think it would help.


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## Elsbells (28 December 2014)

Oh dear, you need more lessons, your confusing him. Sorry!


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## Joanne_Stockport (28 December 2014)

Elsbells said:



			Oh dear, you need more lessons, your confusing him. Sorry!
		
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ahah yes I know ! I have regular lessons so hopefully will improve in a few months time .


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## Elsbells (28 December 2014)

Joanne_Stockport said:



			ahah yes I know ! I have regular lessons so hopefully will improve in a few months time .
		
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Well your doing all the right things and he is trying to teach you too which is great. Maybe you should listen more to what he's telling you and he'll show you all his buttons? We all learn every day, even the pro riders and all horses are different. I know for a fact that I couldn't ride one side of anyone else's horse, but mine I can fly because we have that "thing".

Good luck with him and keep enjoying him.


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## FlyingCircus (28 December 2014)

If I were you, when asking him to canter, I'd take a handful of his mane in my hand/the saddle pommel and hold on. That way, when you ask, you won't be moving your hands up (and catching him in the mouth).

Try without the whip first, see if you can just use your legs. But if you need the whip too, hold the pommel and reins in one hand and then use the stick in the other. It's okay to hold the saddle if you need to - especially as this then stops your horse being yanked in the mouth. 

At the minute, you're very much giving him conflicting messages.
Your legs are very unstable/kick kick kicking at him (nagging) and yet..you appear to be wearing spurs (could be wrong here)..Spurs are a massive NO until you have your leg under control (independent seat) as it will just result in your poor horse being jabbed at constantly when you rise to the trot. Even if you do not have spurs, it appears as if you're kicking practically every stride..which is NOT good for your balance OR the horse's sides. He'll become dulled to your aids and will gradually take more and more nagging to persuade to go forward. You really need to address this before it becomes a bigger issue/stops you progressing with your balance.

You ask for forwards with your leg, but pull with your hands. This is where holding the saddle/mane will help.

You ask for forwards with your leg/spurs/whip and then bounce around on his back straight away because you're unbalanced. This is bound to put your horse off going forward as it will be uncomfortable for him. Again, holding yourself into your saddle may help you with this.

Overall, you're learning and that's great and you're by no means terrible or anything, you're just confusing your horse. With more practice, it will come!

As an aside, if your instructor has told you to wear spurs, please consider changing them (the instructor). Any good instructor should know that spurs have no place on people just learning to ride. You need to know EXACTLY when and where you're applying them before you should wear them and this only comes with having an independent seat.

Have fun learning


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## Joanne_Stockport (28 December 2014)

FlyingCircus said:



			If I were you, when asking him to canter, I'd take a handful of his mane in my hand/the saddle pommel and hold on. That way, when you ask, you won't be moving your hands up (and catching him in the mouth).

Try without the whip first, see if you can just use your legs. But if you need the whip too, hold the pommel and reins in one hand and then use the stick in the other. It's okay to hold the saddle if you need to - especially as this then stops your horse being yanked in the mouth. 

At the minute, you're very much giving him conflicting messages.
Your legs are very unstable/kick kick kicking at him (nagging) and yet..you appear to be wearing spurs (could be wrong here)..Spurs are a massive NO until you have your leg under control (independent seat) as it will just result in your poor horse being jabbed at constantly when you rise to the trot. Even if you do not have spurs, it appears as if you're kicking practically every stride..which is NOT good for your balance OR the horse's sides. He'll become dulled to your aids and will gradually take more and more nagging to persuade to go forward. You really need to address this before it becomes a bigger issue/stops you progressing with your balance.

You ask for forwards with your leg, but pull with your hands. This is where holding the saddle/mane will help.

You ask for forwards with your leg/spurs/whip and then bounce around on his back straight away because you're unbalanced. This is bound to put your horse off going forward as it will be uncomfortable for him. Again, holding yourself into your saddle may help you with this.

Overall, you're learning and that's great and you're by no means terrible or anything, you're just confusing your horse. With more practice, it will come!

As an aside, if your instructor has told you to wear spurs, please consider changing them (the instructor). Any good instructor should know that spurs have no place on people just learning to ride. You need to know EXACTLY when and where you're applying them before you should wear them and this only comes with having an independent seat.

Have fun learning 

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Will try to hold onto the saddle to see if it makes things better when asking to canter. 
I know it is hard to see on a video but I can assure you that I am only touching his sides when I ask for walk, trot or canter and when he slows down.
I've watched the video again and it does look like I am kicking him at every stride but I am not..it think it's just the way my legs are moving.

Yes I about know the spurs (I picked the softest one I could find), it is not ideal I know. 
My new instructor did suggest to use them to see if it would make things better for now. 
Let me explain the reason behind this : First lesson on the lunge with no spurs went really good. He was going with small squeezes from my legs , trotting and cantering.
Then I was practicing that on my own but no way he would go with the same aids. 
He knows to listen when there is a person lunging but he just doesn't do the same when I am on my own (it is my own fault as I was letting him taking more and more time to respond to my aids, up to the point that he would not move at all !)
So on my second lesson, I explain to her what I have been doing (basically kicking my poor horse for ages just to get a trot !).
Coming from that I pretty much agree that a couple of nudges with the spurs are better then kicking constantly. 
She did make sure that I was not touching his sides when I should not. I plan to stop using them as soon as possible.

I will see if I can do my next lesson without the spurs and try to replicate on my own again but I am not prepared to spend half an hour constantly kicking him if I can make him go with a couple of nudges with the spurs.


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## JillA (28 December 2014)

You shouldn't be even nudging with spurs - they are intended to back up the leg aid by just gently lifting your heel so that they come up and gently graze his sides. Get rid - you need considerably more control of your legs and your cob is wide enough for you to inadvertently jab him with them when you don't intend to. It worries me that you have an instructor who would suggest such a thing TBH - no wonder your cob felt he needed to tell you by bucking. I'll message you about instructors I know in your area.


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## Joanne_Stockport (28 December 2014)

JillA said:



			You shouldn't be even nudging with spurs - they are intended to back up the leg aid by just gently lifting your heel so that they come up and gently graze his sides. Get rid - you need considerably more control of your legs and your cob is wide enough for you to inadvertently jab him with them when you don't intend to. It worries me that you have an instructor who would suggest such a thing TBH - no wonder your cob felt he needed to tell you by bucking. I'll message you about instructors I know in your area.
		
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I am just curious as to what am I supposed to do if he doesn't respect my leg aids ??
Everyone at my yard were advising to give a small nudge ( the aids that I would like him to move from ) and if he does't move to give him a big kick ..but that doesn't work for him so I am lost at too what I am supposed to do??


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## FlyingCircus (28 December 2014)

Joanne_Stockport said:



			I am just curious as to what am I supposed to do if he doesn't respect my leg aids ??
Everyone at my yard were advising to give a small nudge ( the aids that I would like him to move from ) and if he does't move to give him a big kick ..but that doesn't work for him so I am lost at too what I am supposed to do??
		
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Then a wollop on the bum with the whip! BUT make sure you allow for his sudden burst of speed by not catching him in the mouth with the reins. 

So the process should be for asking for a higher gait:

Ensure you're not blocking with your hands, ask nicely (nudge)
No reaction? Ensure you're not blocking with your hands, swift kick
No reaction again? Ensure you're not blocking with your hands and a smack on the bum with your stick

It's very important to make sure you're not blocking him from forward movement like you appear to be doing at the minute (catching him in the mouth). Even if you want trot, but he canters..that's fine! Any forward movement is good at this stage. 

Spurs are intended to be more precise aids that are used when people have really mastered the independent seat and apply the spur ONLY when they wish to and only in the place they wish to. This is hard to do and requires lots of years of practice (without spurs) before you should be wearing them. Even now, 16 years into me riding I would feel uncomfortable wearing spurs as my lower leg is not as stable as I would like it to be (I've had a bit of a break). 


Also, are you asking for canter in a way he understands? Or are you just kicking? What are your aids for when you ask him to move off, walk, trot and canter? 

It is nice that you have the help of an instructor and are trying to learn more on here too - I hope it starts coming together soon.


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## JillA (28 December 2014)

Ask once with a squeeze, ask a second time with a nudge, tell a third time with your whip on your boot and then tell a fourth with your whip behind your leg - and be consistent, so that he is aware if he ignores your first ask it will escalate. And as above, ensure it is leg without hands or hands without leg, never both at the same time.


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## Joanne_Stockport (28 December 2014)

FlyingCircus said:



			Then a wollop on the bum with the whip! BUT make sure you allow for his sudden burst of speed by not catching him in the mouth with the reins. 

So the process should be for asking for a higher gait:

Ensure you're not blocking with your hands, ask nicely (nudge)
No reaction? Ensure you're not blocking with your hands, swift kick
No reaction again? Ensure you're not blocking with your hands and a smack on the bum with your stick
		
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When I use the stick I put the reins in my other hands to make sure not to catch him in his mouth by doing so.
I tried already everything you mention here, nudge, big kick, smack on the bum then not reaction so what is next then?
I keep the reins loose so I do not block him with my hands. 
On the lunge he listens but apart from that I do not get much reactions from him (he is very laid back !)



FlyingCircus said:



			It's very important to make sure you're not blocking him from forward movement like you appear to be doing at the minute (catching him in the mouth). Even if you want trot, but he canters..that's fine! Any forward movement is good at this stage.
		
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Could you pin point where you can see that I am catching him in the mouth. The way you word it it sounds like I am constantly doing that?
I review and pause the video loads of time and more then anything else the reins are loose ?
I can maybe see once or twice (when asking for canter) where the reins seems to go a bit tighter?
And I don't mind if he canter if I ask for a trot...forward is what I want !



FlyingCircus said:



			Spurs are intended to be more precise aids that are used when people have really mastered the independent seat and apply the spur ONLY when they wish to and only in the place they wish to. This is hard to do and requires lots of years of practice (without spurs) before you should be wearing them. Even now, 16 years into me riding I would feel uncomfortable wearing spurs as my lower leg is not as stable as I would like it to be (I've had a bit of a break).
		
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Yes I do know spurs are intended to be used as a more precise aid. I would prefer not to use them, I will try again without but as I said before I am not prepared to kick him smack him for ages before I get a reaction...The nudge, kick ,smack doesn't work at the moment !!



FlyingCircus said:



			Also, are you asking for canter in a way he understands? Or are you just kicking? What are your aids for when you ask him to move off, walk, trot and canter? 

It is nice that you have the help of an instructor and are trying to learn more on here too - I hope it starts coming together soon.
		
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The way I ask for a canter is outside leg back and a nudge with both legs as well as voice command (and he does know then very well) , sometimes a tap with the stick but that is when he bucks.


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## Joanne_Stockport (28 December 2014)

JillA said:



			Ask once with a squeeze, ask a second time with a nudge, tell a third time with your whip on your boot and then tell a fourth with your whip behind your leg - and be consistent, so that he is aware if he ignores your first ask it will escalate. And as above, ensure it is leg without hands or hands without leg, never both at the same time.
		
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That is what I was doing but he has learned to ignore those.
I know at some point the problem was that between the squeeze and the nudge/kick I was waiting to long.


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## FlyingCircus (28 December 2014)

It's fair to say, the majority of the time, you have a slight loop in your rein so you're not catching him in the mouth. However, your hands aren't very still and this can annoy some horses.

Where you do catch him is every time you ask for canter, he bucks and you land hard on his back and catch him in the mouth at the same time. 

approx 16 seconds in is an example of this. You also raise your hands before/just as you kick for canter, which is catching him in the mouth (17 seconds). At this point, you're also pretty tense and rather than sitting the trot before you ask for the canter, you're asking and trying to sit at the same time and this results in you bouncing around abit with your hands up (don't worry - happened to the best of us when we were learning!!). 

Instead, try and think about rising trot then when you want to canter, sit the trot until you feel relaxed (bouncing around all tense will make your horse not want to canter). When you're relaxed at the sitting trot, then ask for canter. If you can't relax when sitting trot - focus on this before you do more work on the canter transition. Then, after you've going rising trot, sitting trot, canter...each time the amount of sitting trot will become less and less as you get better and less tense.

At 18 seconds, he starts to canter(sorta!) and you get a little left behind, catching him in the mouth momentarily, although you do quickly move your hands forward.

I can't really see the moments where you catch him (if you even do) when you're at the bottom end of the school away from the camera, but at 1.34 ish..you kinda tickle him with the whip. I think your problem may lie (as long as he's all checked out and not hurting anywhere etc) in the fact you're not actually USING your whip. You kinda tickle him and he goes "ehhh...naahh". When you're in the top corner here too, you tickle him with it again and he goes "grr stop!" and bucks (it appears you got him in the mouth a little here too).

Again at 1.47 ish..you kinda boop him on the bum with the whip...

2.03 ish you ask him to canter..sit for 2 strides (kinda..more tense bouncing) and raise your arms out wide (catching him when he moves his head)..this would again really be helped if you did a bunch of sitting trot work so you can make sure you're not at all tense. Tense = bouncey. 

I'm sure you get the idea and I don't need to go through the second half of the video. 

The main things I can see are:
When he bucks, you become unbalanced and catch him in the mouth at times (sure loads of us are guilty of this occasionally!!).
You're bouncing when you ask for canter (instead of sitting the trot) because you're tense
You open your hands up high and wide(r) when you ask for canter
You tickle him with the whip rather than really meaning it. 

If I were you in order to stop these I'd:
Work on rising trot, then sitting trot, THEN ask for canter like I mentioned before. This will take away the tense bouncing that you have. TRUST me when I say that everyone I have known is tense and bouncy when asking for canter at some stage in their learning :')
Hold onto the mane/saddle when asking for canter to make sure your hands don't develop a mind of their own! (again, happens to the best of us, my elbows do unexplainable things at times too!)
SMACK him with the whip rather than tickling him if the tickling doesn't get you what you want. It sounds horrid, but one sharp (yes, sharp) smack is not horse abuse! It's telling him to listen and it will make him realise you mean business. 

In doing these things, you should hopefully get rid of the bucking and that will mean you won't catch him in the mouth  As it's only when you're unbalanced by him that this seems to happen. I wasn't saying you were doing it every other stride or something, haha!

I'd also be very wary of making him worse with use of the spurs. If you use them too much, he'll just get desensitised to them too and also have very sore sides!


(Pheeeeew, essay much!! Hope I don't come across as rude/horrid as I'm trying to help, but understand that I could come across as hugely critical - I'm defo not meaning to be  )


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## meesha (28 December 2014)

I also think cantering out hacking will help loads, make sure you ask for canter rather than just letting him run into it.  You should find it much easier as he will be more forward going.


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## Joanne_Stockport (29 December 2014)

FlyingCircus said:



			It's fair to say, the majority of the time, you have a slight loop in your rein so you're not catching him in the mouth. However, your hands aren't very still and this can annoy some horses.

Where you do catch him is every time you ask for canter, he bucks and you land hard on his back and catch him in the mouth at the same time. 

approx 16 seconds in is an example of this. You also raise your hands before/just as you kick for canter, which is catching him in the mouth (17 seconds). At this point, you're also pretty tense and rather than sitting the trot before you ask for the canter, you're asking and trying to sit at the same time and this results in you bouncing around abit with your hands up (don't worry - happened to the best of us when we were learning!!). 

Instead, try and think about rising trot then when you want to canter, sit the trot until you feel relaxed (bouncing around all tense will make your horse not want to canter). When you're relaxed at the sitting trot, then ask for canter. If you can't relax when sitting trot - focus on this before you do more work on the canter transition. Then, after you've going rising trot, sitting trot, canter...each time the amount of sitting trot will become less and less as you get better and less tense.

At 18 seconds, he starts to canter(sorta!) and you get a little left behind, catching him in the mouth momentarily, although you do quickly move your hands forward.

I can't really see the moments where you catch him (if you even do) when you're at the bottom end of the school away from the camera, but at 1.34 ish..you kinda tickle him with the whip. I think your problem may lie (as long as he's all checked out and not hurting anywhere etc) in the fact you're not actually USING your whip. You kinda tickle him and he goes "ehhh...naahh". When you're in the top corner here too, you tickle him with it again and he goes "grr stop!" and bucks (it appears you got him in the mouth a little here too).

Again at 1.47 ish..you kinda boop him on the bum with the whip...

2.03 ish you ask him to canter..sit for 2 strides (kinda..more tense bouncing) and raise your arms out wide (catching him when he moves his head)..this would again really be helped if you did a bunch of sitting trot work so you can make sure you're not at all tense. Tense = bouncey. 

I'm sure you get the idea and I don't need to go through the second half of the video.
		
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I will check the video again tonight but yes the transition from trot to canter is what is giving me most problems. So you are correct that I am probably catch him a bit in the mouth even though I try to move my hands when I realise. I will try to work on getting my hands more still...maybe grab his mane a bit to stop my hands going up to much?? I do tense when I know I am going to ask for a canter...I'm not afraid or anything like that it's more I have to think to much of everything I need to do and that makes me tense. I am going to practice a lot of posting trot and sitting the trot for 2-3-4 strides until I can get it right. I am ok when I start with sitting trot but it's when I go from posting and sitting that I struggle !



FlyingCircus said:



			The main things I can see are:
When he bucks, you become unbalanced and catch him in the mouth at times (sure loads of us are guilty of this occasionally!!).
You're bouncing when you ask for canter (instead of sitting the trot) because you're tense
You open your hands up high and wide(r) when you ask for canter
You tickle him with the whip rather than really meaning it. 

If I were you in order to stop these I'd:
Work on rising trot, then sitting trot, THEN ask for canter like I mentioned before. This will take away the tense bouncing that you have. TRUST me when I say that everyone I have known is tense and bouncy when asking for canter at some stage in their learning :')
Hold onto the mane/saddle when asking for canter to make sure your hands don't develop a mind of their own! (again, happens to the best of us, my elbows do unexplainable things at times too!)
SMACK him with the whip rather than tickling him if the tickling doesn't get you what you want. It sounds horrid, but one sharp (yes, sharp) smack is not horse abuse! It's telling him to listen and it will make him realise you mean business. 

In doing these things, you should hopefully get rid of the bucking and that will mean you won't catch him in the mouth  As it's only when you're unbalanced by him that this seems to happen. I wasn't saying you were doing it every other stride or something, haha!

I'd also be very wary of making him worse with use of the spurs. If you use them too much, he'll just get desensitised to them too and also have very sore sides!
		
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I will try what you suggest, trying to smack and not tickle with the whip but I expect a whole lot of bucking. From my point of view it's when I use the whip that the bucking starts..Once he has done it a few times and I push him though it he stops doing it and starts listening more. The bucking at the start of the video could be because I catch him in the mouth but he never really bucked often before and I was riding the same way. The difference now is that if he doesn't do what I ask, I try to push him to do it ..before I was let him get away with it ! I also used my crop a lot more and he doesn't appreciate that !


FlyingCircus said:



			(Pheeeeew, essay much!! Hope I don't come across as rude/horrid as I'm trying to help, but understand that I could come across as hugely critical - I'm defo not meaning to be  )
		
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Thank you for the explanations and taking the time to reply, it does help to understand the main points I should be working on. I am very critical about myself and hope I could learn quicker...wished I started to ride when I was younger and not at 44..it's probably easier when you are younger !



meesha said:



			I also think cantering out hacking will help loads, make sure you ask for canter rather than just letting him run into it.  You should find it much easier as he will be more forward going.
		
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Yes we did a lot of hacking (not so much now because of the weather). Hacking is better then schooling (on his own he can nap quite a bit), he normally goes straight into canter when I ask, it's schooling that is more difficult..he is not too keen on that !


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