# H & H have made me cross.



## Maesfen (8 March 2012)

Their strap line in the sport horse breeding issue is don't breed for the sake of it and purely because it is in that issue implies it is targeted at sport horse breeders when we all know that the ones that should be targeted at (but to who it won't make a jot of difference to) are those who think that being coloured and hairy gives them a God given right to breed; those that are breeding Dartmoor Hill ponies and those other poor mongrels that get turfed out on the Welsh Hills with not a care for their welfare or future lives let alone those breeding designer miniatures which have health problems and a myriad of others.  
Perhaps if they got those houses in order then they could come and target responsible breeders that take a lot of time, money and effort to formulate their breeding plans with a specific purpose in mind.  Yes, there are some SH breeders that do breed too many for the market as it stands, I'm not disputing that but they are a drop in the ocean to the other unregisterable rubbish that is churned out by the thousands that only ever fetch a tenner at auction.

Target the right people H & H but I suppose not many of them would actually read H & H anyway so it's hard to know just what would make a difference other than a mass cull of the scrub ponies and castrating any colts other than pure bred registered, graded and licensed stock with the same premise that only graded mares can live out on the hills too.  That way there should be an improvement in the stock bred without the huge numbers of late and there should be a decent market for them too.


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## dunthing (8 March 2012)

I'm in total agreement with you on this. The hill ponies really need someone in authority to stop the breeding of tiny ill formed ponies that go for meat. Take the stallions of the moors for a good few years.  What is the point. There are a few small rescue places round Devon which are overflowing with 11Hh ponies that are only ever going to be field ornaments. The sport horse breeders are in their jobs because they are responsible. It's a carefully thought out process with them. Which mare, which stallion and which attributes to bring out. Makes me very cross when they target the wrong section of the industry as being irresonsible.


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## minime (8 March 2012)

Maesfen said:



			let alone those breeding designer miniatures which have health problems and a myriad of others.  
Perhaps if they got those houses in order then they could come and target responsible breeders that take a lot of time, money and effort to formulate their breeding plans with a specific purpose in mind.
		
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I take personal offence to your thoughtless comment. I breed Miniatures and I can assure you that not one of mine has health issues. I have worked for 20 years with show jumpers and believe me they have way more problems due to atrocious conformation. Way too many SH are bred just because a mare has a uterus, the amount of really talented SJ is limited yet there are thousands of average horses that are worthless. 
We all need to stop and think and not just the pony breeders. JMHO


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## AdorableAlice (8 March 2012)

Maesfen talks sense yet again.


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## HHO admin (8 March 2012)

Reply from Alice Collins, H&H's Sport Horse Editor:

I read this thread with some dismay. 'Sport horse' as defined by us at H&H refers largely to the breeding and producing of horses aimed at the main disciplines, not those bred with no job/purpose in mind. Most of our readers are interested in one or more of those main disciplines. Our content has to be appropriate for, and appeal to, those who read the magazine, otherwise they won't buy it.  

I absolutely agree that it is largely irresponsible breeding in other equestrian sectors that accounts for the huge over-population problem we have at the moment in this country. The introduction to the magazine feature makes it very clear that people need to think before they breed. 

I think it's unfair to say that just because this feature deals with sport horse breeding/breeders that they are being "targeted".  I don't feel it would be appropriate to go into detail in this feature about those who indiscriminately breed 'equine mongrels', as this is not the target audience of those who read the sport horse section and corresponding special supplements. 

The exclusion of these haphazard breeding programmes from the feature does not mean that we condone them. Far from it. In fact, I refer you to the news story we ran across a double page spread in the magazine on 8 December about overbreeding on the moors and among the native populations. 

There is nowhere in this current feature that "target responsible breeders that take a lot of time, money and effort to formulate their breeding plans with a specific purpose in mind" and nor should there be. On that front, British breeding is thriving. 

Most of the owners of the mares used for the magazine feature (which took a huge amount of time and effort from a number of people) are first&#8211;time breeders and hugely welcomed advice from our experts. One even told me she had no idea how to choose a stallion and was now rethinking the whole process thanks to the advice given. The feature is about education, and though it might not be rocket science to those with many years' breeding experience, it has provided valuable insights to those featured. I hope it can do the same for many other readers.

If my feature makes one person think twice about breeding from a poor quality mare and/or one with issues and encourages one person to pick a stallion that will better complement their mare than the closest/cheapest one available, I feel it will have achieved its purpose.


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## GinnieRedwings (8 March 2012)

Quite, Maesfen!

Not to mention the racing industry, which single handedly produces thousands of animals, most of them will be on the scarp heap by age 3, if not sooner, and which they used to have the decency to shoot, but have instead been swamping the leisure market with, in an attempt to make themselves sleep better at night.


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## Sportznight (8 March 2012)

GinnieRedwings said:



			Quite, Maesfen!

Not to mention the racing industry, which single handedly produces thousands of animals, most of them will be on the scarp heap by age 3, if not sooner, and which they used to have the decency to shoot, but have instead been swamping the leisure market with, in an attempt to make themselves sleep better at night.
		
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Is that the fault of the breeding industry or the trainers/owners of the actual racehorses?


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## Miss L Toe (8 March 2012)

GinnieRedwings said:



			Quite, Maesfen!

Not to mention the racing industry, which single handedly produces thousands of animals, most of them will be on the scarp heap by age 3, if not sooner, and which they used to have the decency to shoot, but have instead been swamping the leisure market with, in an attempt to make themselves sleep better at night.
		
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So you think shooting is a better option, but really lots of young TBs are able to become nice hacks, some make eventers, not all are hopeless arthritics with ulcers and behavioural issues.
Many people have campaigned for re-habilitation, is this not good practice?
Do you really want to close the racing industry, an industry which I suspect you have never worked in.


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## Cherrygarden (8 March 2012)

In defence of the Dartmoor Hill pony society they are actually doing eveything in their power to try and cut down the numbers of ponies bred with several systems in place that are far and away from the diddly squit currently being done by the WPCS who have pure bred, licensed, registered stock that fetch very little money once they have done their time in the in hand rings because they are bred primarily for beauty and so temperament is not really a factor. A breeder told my friend that the other day as she had rung for advice on choosing a sec B stallion to produce ridden workers. The top breeder didn't know because it was of no interest to her.
To my mind Studbooks that propagate that kind of rubbish should be stripped of their studbook status.
Also I have a registered, pure bred sec C mare who is loved and adored but when things are tricky the pony my daughter wishes she still had is the dartmoor hill pony mare who I let go of to replace with a properly bred mare to breed from.
I am totally in agreement though that mares on the hills and in general should be subject to more assessment but think this is unlikely to happen as people just wouldn't like the results.
I didn't buy the H and H issue in question as I had an idea it would make me cross but I might now have too ; ).
I also strongly feel that there should be a studbook dedicated to breeding proper all rounders, horses that were planned to be top level that don't quite get there, we do need to take more care over the standard of ordinary horses and not put people off breeding horses that they will enjoy. The top end will take care of itself and shrug off the critics and very likely produce the results but if we are honest a lot of those results do not want to attend a low level dressage clinic on monday, go to the beach tuesday, attend an evening taster of polo/horse ball/horse agility etc at the local riding school on weds and then get washed and dressed to go out and jump low level BS at the weekend. The breeders of those horses do feel slighted by criticism and shouldn't and the owners who decide to breed from a mare that has done all that but want something bigger or younger or a different colour should also not be put off breeding them either. Yes we should always breed marketable stock for those what if times but we might also need to be a bit clearer about what marketable actually is these days. For my money the Dartmoor hill pony(admittedly a nice example) correctly produced wins hooves down over some of the beautiful, pure bred, registered stuff even if her legs were technically a little short. Maybe we should all be a bit harsher about culling stock that doesn't turn out like it should and not blooming well rescuing manky, wonky, hairy ponies from the market. If the meat men were allowed to do their job properly and under sensible legislation in this country then the problem would largely resolve itself given time.


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## Cherrygarden (8 March 2012)

Some Tb's can of course be re trained but an awful cannot, an awful lot cannot even rear and raise their own foals but will be bred from because they won or had the right pedigree or just because. The racing industry is one of a few sectors that massively overproduces and yes in many cases once the horses are dead they can't hurt any more. Hard to do and hard to swallow but only because we are relentlessly human are we endlessly kind to be cruel.


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## Maesfen (8 March 2012)

HHO admin said:



			I think it's unfair to say that just because this feature deals with sport horse breeding/breeders that they are being "targeted".  I don't feel it would be appropriate to go into detail in this feature about those who indiscriminately breed 'equine mongrels', as this is not the target audience of those who read the sport horse section and corresponding special supplements. 

*But surely, the sheer fact it is in this sport horse breeding issue makes it look as if you are targeting the very people this issue is about and for?*

If my feature makes one person think twice about breeding from a poor quality mare and/or one with issues and encourages one person to pick a stallion that will better complement their mare than the closest/cheapest one available, I feel it will have achieved its purpose.
		
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I have no qualms with that at all, I think we're all on your side there.

Bare in mind that I have only seen the blog, I have not seen the article at all but the first impression on seeing the sliding headline above brought this thread about.  I wonder how many others would have seen and felt the same as I did that on one hand you're trying to encourage and on the other giving US - or so it seems like - a kick in the pants.  
As I said before, it's not the decent breeders that need targeting although saying that, you could try targeting someone that most in the breeding world will have heard about with glowing reports but you should look at the state of some of her stock and how they are not managed; that would give you nightmares sorting that one out.


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## magic104 (8 March 2012)

Oh come one we all know full well that there are people who breed because they have no other job for the mare.  Who get a cheap stallion to cover a few mares rather then pay out stud fees.  That have no thought about their change in circumstances (I want to breed for myself) or how they will tackle weaning etc.  I know someone who has paid £700 for a rising 2yo of no recorded breeding.  The breeder said the dam was a PBA & the sire a spotted pony.  It is awful, it is long in the back & even for 18+mths is very weak in its hind legs.  It is so narrow it looks like its legs come out the same whole!  It is just bloody horrible & the numpty paid £700 for it saying how cheap it was.  Another has paid £1500 for a gelding who has not been sound yet!  Part of his problem is he hardly has any foot it is so shallow.  He is again long & weak in his back/loins, another that should not have been bred in the first instance.  Having said that some of the top eventers do not have the best of conformations.  

I wince everytime I see a mare owner talking about breeding from a traditional, because they have been ruined.  The sister of the PBA has herself just paid 2k for again an awful example of this type of horse.  I thought breeding had improved, & on the whole it has, but take a look at any sale & we still have a problem.  

It is no good just blaming bog ponies, or hill ponies, there are far too many mare owners who are not be objective with their mare or the stallion they choose for her.  I think the comments made were justified.  As for the TB, well I have seen plenty of them turned into rather nice riding horses.

I think this article is too close to what is happening;
Sport horse editor's blog: please don't breed for the sake of it
Alice Collins, H&H sport horse editor

8 March, 2012

For one week only  subscribe to H&H and save 45%

When I invited readers who were considering breeding from their mare to take part in a feature for the H&H sport horse special (on sale today 8 March, 2012), I was inundated with replies. 

But as I worked through the hundreds of responses, I was shocked by the sheer number of mares with serious issues put forward as viable breeding candidates. 


There were numerous people looking to breed from mares with kissing spines, navicular, sweet itch, sarcoids, ligament and tendon injuries, respiratory issues, undiagnosed lameness, deteriorating eyesight, joint injuries, bone spavins and, would you believe it, immature knees. You name it, they had it. 


The lack of education demonstrated by these owners was worrying. Breeding is a gamble at best and starting with the right mare should be a no-brainer. 


Just because a mare can have a foal does not mean that it is a good idea for her to do so. 


The primary reason cited for breeding from these mares seemed to be that the owners "just really want to breed a foal. 


In these straightened times  with horses being sold for peanuts and others going for meat as people cannot afford to keep them  just wanting to breed a cute foal is not a good enough reason to breed from a mare with issues. 


That is not to say that a successful mare with, for example, a tendon injury should be immediately ruled out, but owners must carefully and objectively examine the mares performance record in their chosen sphere; her pedigree and the performance of her relatives; her conformation, movement and temperament. 


If the mare is young, unproven with no competition record and no pedigree to speak of, it's probably a better idea  and often cheaper  to buy a foal instead. Then you can choose the bloodlines, colour and sex of that foal. 


And then theres all the aftercare. If owners have no experience of caring for a preganant mare, foaling or looking after foals, then without proper support, the risks  already high  of something going wrong are vastly increased. 


No horse is perfect, but its so important to start from a sound, quality mare. With modern AI techniques, the likelihood of the foal ever glimpsing its father is minimal. Its easy to reason that the mare, whos likely to spend six solid months with the foal when it is at its most absorbent and receptive, has more than 50% influence over the resulting adult horse. 


As I said, breeding is a gamble, even with world-class bloodlines, but starting with a healthy, happy, proven mare certainly improves your odds. 


And there are no guarantees: even the best mare in the world is still capable, sadly, of producing a talentless moose. 


From the hundreds of mares put forward, we chose a broad cross-section of healthy, sound horses as case studies for our feature in which top breeders recommend a range of stallions to suit each mare. Pick up a copy of today's issue (8 March, 2012) to see if you agree with their suggestions.


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## GinnieRedwings (8 March 2012)

Sportznight said:



			Is that the fault of the breeding industry or the trainers/owners of the actual racehorses?
		
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The racing industry, the world over, is more, much much more about money than it is about horses. So yes, it is the breeding industry at fault for the amount of wastage that is produced.



Miss L Toe said:



			So you think shooting is a better option, but really lots of young TBs are able to become nice hacks, some make eventers, not all are hopeless arthritics with ulcers and behavioural issues.
		
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Some, a few, not lots.



Miss L Toe said:



			Many people have campaigned for re-habilitation, is this not good practice?
Do you really want to close the racing industry, an industry which I suspect you have never worked in.
		
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I have rehabbed several ex-racehorses. Even retrained and going nicely, most people don't want them, because unless you get the management just right, they are simply not straightforward. Just have a look at the prices they go for. £700 - £800 on average. Some quiet safe gypsy cobs go for 3 times that much. There is a reason for that.

I love horses, but I actually believe that most failed racehorses would be better off dead, rather than passed from pillar to post in the hope someone will get on with them. 

BTW, my background and association or not with racing industry is totally irrelevant.


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## BBH (8 March 2012)

I think we've got to the stage where everyone should have a sabbatical from breeding anything unless there is a clear customer for the foal. 

Anything to highlight the problems has to be a good thing and if you upset a few sensitive folk along the way so be it. Established breeders will know the article wasn't aimed at them but   ' Breeder' is becoming a dirty word in animal welfare and anything anyone can do to make people think twice has to be a good thing for all concerned. 

Same with dogs we need an amnesty to clear up and rehome unwanted animals before anymore are produced.


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## Cherrygarden (8 March 2012)

Why for goodness sake if the object of the article was education would you not pick out the bad mares and explain, publicly why it was not a good idea to breed from them? Surely that would have been more useful? A broad spectrum of the best of the lot isn't going to change much is it?


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## Ciss (8 March 2012)

As one of the 'experts' (their word not mine) who was asked to advise on stallion choice for the broodmares selected by HH for this feature, I do know that Alice was seriously concerned about the inability a sizeable number of the would-be sports horse / pony breeders who sent in entries had in assessing how suitable their mares were to be bred from in the first place, let alone having a thought out use or life plan for the planned foal. Bear in mind that these were regular HH readers -- and therfore presumably not complete numpties -- and were planning to breed SPORTS horse / pony foals rather than pasture ornaments or useless crosses of unknown breeding, so I totally endorse her comments (both printed and in her blog) as I know that they were said from the heart and were driven entirely by her shock at what she read in many of the submissions made to her by mare owners  / potential foal breeders. Untii people learn to assess their breeding stock of both sexes with a totally critical eye then we will never progress significantly to be a country that breeds successful sports horses and ponies in major numbers and we need to be aware of that before we automatically 'shoot the messenger' who says so, just becuase some of us are already doing the correct thing.


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## Maesfen (8 March 2012)

Cherrygarden said:



			Why for goodness sake if the object of the article was education would you not pick out the bad mares and explain, publicly why it was not a good idea to breed from them? Surely that would have been more useful? A broad spectrum of the best of the lot isn't going to change much is it?
		
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Now that would have made a lot more sense.


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## Spring Feather (8 March 2012)

Ciss said:



			As one of the 'experts' (their word not mine) who was asked to advise on stallion choice for the broodmares selected by HH for this feature, I do know that Alice was seriously concerned about the inability a sizeable number of the would-be sports horse / pony breeders who sent in entries had in assessing how suitable their mares were to be bred from in the first place, let alone having a thought out use or life plan for the planned foal. *Bear in mind that these were regular HH readers -- and therfore presumably not complete numpties -- and were planning to breed SPORTS horse / pony foals rather than pasture ornaments or useless crosses of unknown breeding*, so I totally endorse her comments (both printed and in her blog) as I know that they were said from the heart and were driven entirely by her shock at what she read in many of the submissions made to her by mare owners  / potential foal breeders. Untii people learn to assess their breeding stock of both sexes with a totally critical eye then we will never progress significantly to be a country that breeds successful sports horses and ponies in major numbers and we need to be aware of that before we automatically 'shoot the messenger' who says so, just becuase some of us are already doing the correct thing.
		
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I agree with most of what you've said Ciss.  The highlighted sentence I feel I have to comment upon; these HH readers are possibly not numpties in the sense they know how to ride and how to care for their horses, but that does not go hand in hand with being knowledgeable about conformation and yes they very well could be total numpties in respect of breeding horses.  Take a look at this forum for example; the posters on here are a cross section of the equine community and how many mares do we see photographs of, where (I'm sure most of us established breeders would agree) most of these mares should never be bred from.  Until mare owners can actually stand and look and see what dire messes these mares are, nothing will change.  Cheap stallions are ten-a-penny and a lot of these mare owners don't alter anything in their husbandry of keeping the pregnant mare so they see it as a free foal.  

Established breeders are spending a significant amount of money, starting with good quality mares and using good quality stallions and still, yes there is the risk of them throwing a moose!  When a breeder spends thousands just to inseminate the mare, most sensible breeders make bloomin sure they have a buyer clientelle out there for that foal.  Established breeders are just that and they didn't get there, and more importantly remain there, by spewing out "bin end mongrels".

This is not brand new though, this has been going on for a while.  Again you don't have to look much further than this forum to see that there is an increase of owners breeding from their mares whether they're worthy of breeding or not.  I try not to stand in judgement when they come on and ask questions about their pregnant mare as by then there's little to be gained.  If mare owners could only be more critical of their mares and see them for what they are, I think this could go a way to reducing numbers of substandard offspring swamping the market.  You know though, at the end of the day people have a choice and these people are making their choices, informed and educated ... or not.


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## Rollin (8 March 2012)

Sadly I cancelled by H&H sub as it took three weeks to get here (Ride-a-way, M&S, JL all deliver in four days) so I have not seen the article.

When BHS started their campaign against irresponsible breeding I felt the message would never get to those who should be actively discouraged.

What saddens me is the effect on ALL breeders.  I will not have either a pure bred Cleveland Bay or pure bred Shagya Arab this year, I think that is bad news for two rare breeds.

I don't want to sell my youngsters 'cheap' to get them off my hands I want them to go on to have useful and happy lives.  I think I SHOULD breed every year but I decided the current economic climate is not good for my small business.


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## emmah (8 March 2012)

HHO admin said:



			Reply from Alice Collins, H&H's Sport Horse Editor:

Most of the owners of the mares used for the magazine feature (which took a huge amount of time and effort from a number of people) are firsttime breeders and hugely welcomed advice from our experts. One even told me she had no idea how to choose a stallion and was now rethinking the whole process thanks to the advice given. The feature is about education, and though it might not be rocket science to those with many years' breeding experience, it has provided valuable insights to those featured. I hope it can do the same for many other readers.

If my feature makes one person think twice about breeding from a poor quality mare and/or one with issues and encourages one person to pick a stallion that will better complement their mare than the closest/cheapest one available, I feel it will have achieved its purpose.
		
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I dont want to get dragged into the whole 'Sport Horse breeder' argument but would like to say my mare was luckily picked for the magazine feature and it has been a massive help to me as a first time breeder......before anyone shoots me down my mare has a proven competition record and excellent breeding and she is going to stay at the stud for foaling and weaning as I have no experience of this. 

I am not breeding willy nilly I have spend an awful lot of time researching stallions and had a lot of expert advice and will be breeding something that will be produced hopefully by a professional rider for me to have many years of fun watching as an owner and possibly competing myself.

I often lurk in the background on this forum for fear of stepping on someones cyber toes but felt I had to comment on this one


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## Miss L Toe (8 March 2012)

Cherrygarden said:



			Some Tb's can of course be re trained but an awful cannot, an awful lot cannot even rear and raise their own foals but will be bred from because they wonl.
		
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That is the idea, if a mare has black type it has breeding value, I have no idea why you think they can't be mothers, it is in their genes, just like humans who often breed recklessly and repeatedly.


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## Alec Swan (8 March 2012)

....................

ETS,
I see that another has answered my question,  and I'm pleased that you found the exercise of use.  You obviously received a reply.

Alec.


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## SO1 (8 March 2012)

Yes what would have been sensible would have been some example of unsuitable mares as well as the suitable ones but appreciate there might not have been enough space and people with the unsuitable mares might not want to be featured in the article.

I am guessing the reason that the article focused on sports horses rather than hairy ponies or cobs is that a large proportion of their readership is interested in competition horses as most of the magazine is results!



Cherrygarden said:



			Why for goodness sake if the object of the article was education would you not pick out the bad mares and explain, publicly why it was not a good idea to breed from them? Surely that would have been more useful? A broad spectrum of the best of the lot isn't going to change much is it?
		
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## Alec Swan (8 March 2012)

HHO admin said:



			Reply from Alice Collins, H&H's Sport Horse Editor:

................
If my feature makes one person think twice about breeding from a poor quality mare and/or one with issues and encourages one person to pick a stallion that will better complement their mare than the closest/cheapest one available, I feel it will have achieved its purpose.
		
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Alice,

I remember your invitation to ask for those who would like to request likely mating or matching responses,  and the offer of advice for potential brood mares,  and it was by way of a sticky,  on this section.

Your last paragraph of your last post on here,  was more of a lecture to those who you feel shouldn't be breeding horses.  I don't have a problem with that,  but was that the intent behind your original sticky?  

I'm sorry,  but I'm with Maesfen,  and those who would support her.  Your original sticky gave not a hint of your intent.

I will admit though,  that as I no longer buy the H&H,  considering it to be a shadow of it's former self,  then should my opinion be of value?  Probably not,  is the answer to that one. 

Alec.


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## seabsicuit2 (8 March 2012)

But where do you draw the line on an unsuitable mare?! Do you really know the background story?Because 99% of people on  here would probably gasp in  shock and horror at the idea of using my mare as a broodmare. She went lame age 5, declared a write off at top Newmarket vets. She's a stresshead and is fizzy and sharp. 
But the background story is that she went into training as a tiny 3 year old barely 15 hands high and was hammered and hammered and hammered... Cantering 5 miles a day, 6 days a week, up and down hills, round and round the circular gallops. She was the only horse on the yard that came out fighting and wanting to work every day- all the others broke down or died. To last 2 years with that routine she was a tough survivor. 
She might have been sharp and stressy but this made her a fabolous jumper once in retraining for eventing. She was kind and genuine and just wanted to work and to please.
This is just to simply make a point that  not all breeders are breeding from what must be to the uneducated eye ' lame and unsuitable temperemental' mares.


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## Cherrygarden (9 March 2012)

Miss L Toe who do you think it is that drives the quite sizeable and slightly distasteful foster mare market with large herds of grieving wooly cobs available for a handsome fee. Sadly having had the bad luck to be at Rossdales with an orphan during late TB breeding season I got shown just a small percentage of the reasons not to breed from a mare just because she is fast. I have also been to several talks by several vet colleges/breeding institutions and have been told the same thing even if I couldn't see it with my own eyes(when I was wee my Dad had shares in a TB stud and several mares).
It is simple, mares with conformation to run often have awful conformation for maintaining pregnancy to start with and so go with that all the inherent troubles and risks with that, then add to that if they have raced they are likely to have suffered injuries to their pelvis which in many cases go undiagnosed until they break when heavily pregnant. More of them are bred so more suffer catastrophic post foaling complications and dystocia's of course but there are a number of vets interested in whether they actually do just suffer more from obstructed foalings again due to conformation. It isn't secret and it isn't new just the accepted status quo.
You are quite right very often they are great mothers and statistically it is certain families of arabs that are most likely to savage their foals I am told but again bad mothering fortunately is rare in most mares. 
In short not lack of aptitude but sometimes lack of ability, however money is money so those expensive foals will be born.


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## Holly831 (9 March 2012)

Alec Swan said:



			Alice,

I remember your invitation to ask for those who would like to request likely mating or matching responses,  and the offer of advice for potential brood mares,  and it was by way of a sticky,  on this section.

Your last paragraph of your last post on here,  was more of a lecture to those who you feel shouldn't be breeding horses.  I don't have a problem with that,  but was that the intent behind your original sticky?  

I'm sorry,  but I'm with Maesfen,  and those who would support her.  Your original sticky gave not a hint of your intent.

I will admit though,  that as I no longer buy the H&H,  considering it to be a shadow of it's former self,  then should my opinion be of value?  Probably not,  is the answer to that one. 

Alec.
		
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Well said Alec, I couldn't have put it better myself....like you, I no longer subscribe to H&H so my opinion won't count either


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## templewood (9 March 2012)

Unfortunately, TB's are bred for speed, not conformation or temperament, but equally showjumpers are bred for their jumping ability and dressage horses for their paces, not conformation or temperament. Many stallions who have failed their gradings are later included in their respective studbooks on their results. The only way to establish sound stock is to put conformation and temperament first. Otherwise WB's and SH's will go the same way as TB's


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## volatis (10 March 2012)

this thread or outcome of H&H's orginal request to mare owners, doesnt surprise me, as all too often I see here or on other forums people who want to breed from a mare tha is entirely unsuitable, because she is a family favourite or whatever the reason might be, and they think, often encouraged by other people on the net, that breeding her to a stallion that has 1 or 2 vaguely well known ancestors will suddenly produce them a quality sporthorse. 
And yet if someone dares criticse or query why this mare should be bred, they get jumped on by many other posters, or people post that they dare not post on forum boards for fear of getting jumped upon.
Its been the same for years, but education is the key. Iniatives like the young breeders group run by the BEF are vital and this sort of education needs to available to so many more of any age. And this is not the education needed to breed international champions, it is the education needed to breed sound, atheltic and trainable stock. After all, just because I might not want to ride a Grand Prix test, doesnt mean I cant choose to ride a horse that is capable of higher level competition should his training have taken him that way. I want beautiful, trainable athletes in my stable.

It may be preaching to the converted for H&H to say they are worried about the state of UK breeding on many levels, but it still needs to be said, and yes sometimes by saying that you are going to upset educated breeders who feel tarred by the same brush. But if just 1 person reconsiders breeding from an unsuitable mare, or gelds a colt that really doesnt have anything to contribute to the Uk equine population, then job well done

Sorry if that was a bit of a ramble...


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## Eothain (10 March 2012)

Well said! Volatis, take a bow


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## magic104 (10 March 2012)

volatis said:



			this thread or outcome of H&H's orginal request to mare owners, doesnt surprise me, as all too often I see here or on other forums people who want to breed from a mare tha is entirely unsuitable, because she is a family favourite or whatever the reason might be, and they think, often encouraged by other people on the net, that breeding her to a stallion that has 1 or 2 vaguely well known ancestors will suddenly produce them a quality sporthorse. 
And yet if someone dares criticse or query why this mare should be bred, they get jumped on by many other posters, or people post that they dare not post on forum boards for fear of getting jumped upon.
Its been the same for years, but education is the key. Iniatives like the young breeders group run by the BEF are vital and this sort of education needs to available to so many more of any age. And this is not the education needed to breed international champions, it is the education needed to breed sound, atheltic and trainable stock. After all, just because I might not want to ride a Grand Prix test, doesnt mean I cant choose to ride a horse that is capable of higher level competition should his training have taken him that way. I want beautiful, trainable athletes in my stable.

It may be preaching to the converted for H&H to say they are worried about the state of UK breeding on many levels, but it still needs to be said, and yes sometimes by saying that you are going to upset educated breeders who feel tarred by the same brush. But if just 1 person reconsiders breeding from an unsuitable mare, or gelds a colt that really doesnt have anything to contribute to the Uk equine population, then job well done

Sorry if that was a bit of a ramble...
		
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I will like this despite the fact that I could be critised for breeding from my mares.  I dont accept that I or my mares need pity though, which Heather Davies felt the need to state.  I took a year to get to know Flick & we got her going back under saddle.  She had bred foals before by a TB a nice 15.2 rising 4yo filly & a 16.1 rising 3yo gelding.  In the year prior to going in-foal she proved to be 110% honest.  She has never stopped at a fence, mind we have not pushed her over 1.10 yet!  She will go past anything & wont budge while lorries come past her.  Yes she stresses in the stable, (by head bobbing, racing with a back leg & mild box walking) though ok once in the routine.  She has manners to burn & would not dream of invading your space.  She wants to work with you & has the right attitude.  Conformation, could be a bit shorter coupled, perhaps a bit longer in her pasterns.  She has good depth & decent front so you feel like you have something between your legs.  Flick is a decent TB, 10 a penny infact.  I know full well that is is cheaper to have bought my filly then to have tried breeding her.  My stallion choice was taken away, due to my stupidity, but he had been on the short list & I had researched him.  I wanted to inject some movement & on seeing him was not sure he would do that.  BUT if this colt inherits his parents willingness then we are more then half way there.  I have seen the conformation of some of the best eventers & they are far from perfect.  We know the importance of good conformation on keeping them sound.  But you can not breed heart into a horse & the need to want to do the job asked of it.  

Time will tell with this fellow & hopefully he will get a good start in his education to see just how far he can go.


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## lme (11 March 2012)

I don't see what the problem is with owners wanting to breed from their much loved mares, as long as the mares are decent and they have a plan for the foal. I got my first mare as an unbroken 4yo in the mid 80s. She is a 15:2 TB x Irish & by an old HIS stallion John Rawding used to stand called Legal Tender. I had a foal out of her (by Sykes - chosen because he was small / local / threw nice foals / had a reputation of being a gentleman with his mares) before she went on long term loan where she did showing / hunting. (I had a hip problem / couldn't ride seriously & she was a mare who liked to be busy). The foal grew huge, and I ended up selling him to the trainer who backed him for me - I lost track of him after a few years but heard he'd got to PSG level in dressage. My mare came back from loan to retire & I decided to breed another foal. As I know nothing about choosing stallions, I took my mare back to John Rawding & asked his advice. He recommended his stallion Cameo's Reflection & the outcome was a lovely chestnut filly (now a 15:2 10yo mare). I ride her, my daughters take her to local shows & pony club & she is a much loved family member. She has no competition record other than local low key shows because that is all we do, though she has lovely paces / a good jump / is bold XC so I'm sure she could have done more with competitive owners. New trainers the girls encounter at clinics etc always seem to get a bit excited about her potential - until they realise her riders are just not that competitive.  I'd like to breed from her, to get something similar to her (though maybe a bit bigger) for one of my younger daughters when they are older.  Is that SUCH a bad idea? I know I could buy instead (and that it would be cheaper) but it wouldn't be quite the same.


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## Ciss (11 March 2012)

Eothain said:



			Well said! Volatis, take a bow
		
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Agree completely, it still needs to be said I'm afraid and possibly even more so now with such a recession in the buyers market for foals. If the BYB programme achieves anything I hope it will be to make sure that its graduates only breed what they know (from all their training) is an animal that at least has a far chance of staying sound and trainable for its (hopefully) long competitive life


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## Maesfen (11 March 2012)

I hear what you're all saying but my point was why pick on the sport horse edition to mention this, why isn't it mentioned in the new stallion edition and so on?  If it's that important it should be seen in each and every edition but by using this edition only it does seem as if sport horse breeders in general were the only ones targetted.

Ciss, why aren't BYB changing their name as everyone knows that is now the acronym for Back Yard Breeders which hardly helps?


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## Alec Swan (11 March 2012)

seabsicuit2 said:



			But where do you draw the line on an unsuitable mare?! ........
		
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A good and pertinent question.  Let's consider the mare Headley Britania.  Had she not gone on to prove her worth,  would anyone have bothered with ET,  or to bother with having her covered?  Well,  would they?  Probably not,  is the answer. 

It seems to me that the wonderful aspect to breeding horses,  and the one to which I have no answer,  is that top class,  from what ever perspective,  can all so often come from the chance breeding,  as the researched and well thought through mating.

Another point.  What is to happen to those youngsters who fail to reach the intended Advanced stage,  in the planned for discipline?  Are we,  as all so often happens in the racing industry,  to dump them on the more gullible and generally unsuitable,  market?  

There will be a huge _Middle Market Place_ out there,  for the everyday,  non competitive ridden horse,  which arrives via sound and sane parents,  and I'd suggest that they will and do,  bring a great deal of joy to their owners.

For those who aren't reaching for the stars,  keep at it!! 

Alec.


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## lme (11 March 2012)

Alec Swan said:



			Another point.  What is to happen to those youngsters who fail to reach the intended Advanced stage,  in the planned for discipline?  Are we,  as all so often happens in the racing industry,  to dump them on the more gullible and generally unsuitable,  market?  

There will be a huge _Middle Market Place_ out there,  for the everyday,  non competitive ridden horse,  which arrives via sound and sane parents,  and I'd suggest that they will and do,  bring a great deal of joy to their owners.

For those who aren't reaching for the stars,  keep at it!! 

Alec.
		
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Well said. I wouldn't know what to do with a 'proper' competition horse & most competition horses couldn't / wouldn't do the job I want. My little mare suits me perfectly. She lives mainly out, does flatwork with me, will plod around with novice friends of my daughters & go SJ with my daughter. She is exactly what I set out to breed. I love the fact that she has way more scope than we will ever use, but her main strength is that she is a pleasure to own, not a source of stress. There are a lot of families like mine & we generally provide long term homes for our horses, because they are family members, not animals purchased mainly to compete on & sold on when the rider is ready upgrade.


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## Simsar (11 March 2012)

templewood said:



			Unfortunately, TB's are bred for speed, not conformation or temperament, but equally showjumpers are bred for their jumping ability and dressage horses for their paces, not conformation or temperament. Many stallions who have failed their gradings are later included in their respective studbooks on their results. The only way to establish sound stock is to put conformation and temperament first. Otherwise WB's and SH's will go the same way as TB's
		
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WELL SAID!


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## Simsar (11 March 2012)

Eothain said:



			Well said! Volatis, take a bow
		
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Ditto.


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## Eothain (11 March 2012)

On a slight aside, I really don't think it's fair for armchair jockeys to question the temperament of the international jumping stallions! I mean, the work they do and the travelling schedule they have and often times the cramped conditions at shows they put up with means that most of them are actually deserving gold stars for temperament.

It's completely unfair and I'd say unfounded to say that warmbloods aren't bred for temperament or conformation. What use is a stallion, mare or gelding who'll trot down to a 1.60m that's 1.80m wide and give it a foot with a super careful pair of hind legs and a front end tucked up under it's chin, if you can't ride the fricking thing or it breaks down when it's 5, 6 or 7??

Then you have the fluff brigade who thinks every single horse who doesn't make the grade *must* be retrained. Shoot me down if you want but if they're truly nasty and have awful conformation and break down easily then I say: "Bang. Next please. Leave your rose tinted glasses at the door"


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## Kung_po_chicken (12 March 2012)

Eothain said:



			Then you have the fluff brigade who thinks every single horse who doesn't make the grade *must* be retrained. Shoot me down if you want but if they're truly nasty and have awful conformation and break down easily then I say: "Bang. Next please. Leave your rose tinted glasses at the door"
		
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I wish there was a like button on this forum!


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## magic104 (12 March 2012)

Eothain said:



			On a slight aside, I really don't think it's fair for armchair jockeys to question the temperament of the international jumping stallions! I mean, the work they do and the travelling schedule they have and often times the cramped conditions at shows they put up with means that most of them are actually deserving gold stars for temperament.

It's completely unfair and I'd say unfounded to say that warmbloods aren't bred for temperament or conformation. What use is a stallion, mare or gelding who'll trot down to a 1.60m that's 1.80m wide and give it a foot with a super careful pair of hind legs and a front end tucked up under it's chin, if you can't ride the fricking thing or it breaks down when it's 5, 6 or 7??

Then you have the fluff brigade who thinks every single horse who doesn't make the grade *must* be retrained. Shoot me down if you want but if they're truly nasty and have awful conformation and break down easily then I say: "Bang. Next please. Leave your rose tinted glasses at the door"
		
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Like


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## Cherrygarden (12 March 2012)

Also like the above above. I am afraid with a small amount of experience of mainland European horse breeding and production that these foreign horse breeding gods that we sooo aspire to be or are told we should, do in fact produce far more crap out of their so carefully chosen matings and career broodmares who's actual long term soundness is never really tested in sport than we do. Of course this is because they breed more and sure some low end dealers have seen a market for those poor dregs over here but in the main my experience was that anything that didn't make it through injury early on, lack of aptitude and severe temperament issues just goes to the local butchers shop(Danish colleague of my OH is forever asking if he have a nice, fat, useless one he could eat, we'd only have to make it dead he says....) and a new one is purchased. In the case of mares then I am afraid that while the top end breeders may well be careful about their mare stock, the average small stud will take them home and put them in foal at least once to see what happens. The disadvantage maybe of having mares graded at 2 or 3. 
As for breeding stallions that go out and compete, collect, cover, live largely inside, travel the world in a gilded carriage. To be honest they can be as mad as a packet of crisps for all I care and credit to most of them that they are so lovely in the main. But I didn't think anyone was criticising their temperaments?


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## JanetGeorge (12 March 2012)

Eothain said:



			It's completely unfair and I'd say unfounded to say that warmbloods aren't bred for temperament or conformation. What use is a stallion, mare or gelding who'll trot down to a 1.60m that's 1.80m wide and give it a foot with a super careful pair of hind legs and a front end tucked up under it's chin, if you can't ride the fricking thing or it breaks down when it's 5, 6 or 7??
		
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I don't have a huge amount of experience with Warmbloods - but I think I'm beyond being an 'armchair jockey'!  BUT - in my entire career - and backing and training a LOT of horses - I have had two horses I have come close to sending home as 'unbreakable'!!  They're actually both still here and they are now backed and riding - but it's been a long and difficult job for us - and an expensive experience for their owners.  One is a brilliant jumper - the other a potentially brilliant dressage mare with movement to die for!  But both have VERY difficult temperaments (in different ways) and in both cases there are clear reasons for it in the breeding.

If horses like this end up with top pro riders, that's fine.  But a lot of top pro riders wouldn't touch them because - despite their ability - they are downright 'difficult' - and will take a lot of time and patience to get out there competing.  So what happens to them if they end up with the wrong trainer/rider?  Luckily both owners are very competent amateurs - and hopefully we've set them on the right track - but it could have been very different.  FAR too many horses are being bred to be winners in their discipline - they can't ALL be top international horses and the fall-out (if the temperament is dicey) is disastrous.  If ALL breeders started putting temperament first - instead of somewhere down the line - we'd still be gettig top competition horses and the also rans would have a chance!


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## chrissie1 (12 March 2012)

Janet, were these two horses both Warmbloods, or part WB?  I only ask out of academic interest.  Well I'm hardly academic but I would like to know.


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## Maesfen (12 March 2012)

Janet and CG talk a lot of sense as usual.
Weirdly, it seems those that do breed for temperament and conformation above anything else are the ones who get looked down upon, if that's the right term of phrase rather than those that go to the fashionable sires with a stunning performance record but questionable temperament that would not make it an amateur ride, which let's face it, is the larger market.


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## GinnieRedwings (12 March 2012)

A bit of a tangent, but not much...

On Saturday, I went to a dressage lecture/demo ran by Paul & Tessa Fielder and Mark Ruddock & Sean Burgess, entitled "The road from training to performance through the judges eyes" - designed to help people move from training at home to riding their test more effectively and achieving better marks.

All the demo horses (7 of them) were warmbloods with distinguished dressage breeding (which was proudly annouced when presenting each horse). All of them were geldings. All of them were imported. 1 from Holland, 1 from Denmark, the rest from Germany. 

The first one (KWPN), ridden by an amateur and supposedly working at novice level, was a sweet obedient thing, with too short a back and neck to ever have a good trot, and the worst carpal varus I've seen on an adult horse. I don't expect it will go much further than novice...

The second, also ridden by an amateur, was a lovely black flashy 5 year old, paces, conformation and movement to die for (must have paid at least £12k for it), ridden in what I call a headlock (let's put it this way, it dribbled a lot - nerves, not relaxation - on its chest). I give this one a year before it blows a gasket and becomes a problem horse.

Of the others, the 2 I will pick out Mark Ruddock's 8 year old enormous, beautiful Oldenburg, imported from Denmark, who just started bobbing up & down (half rearing up and down) every time it got stuck, which was quite a lot. Why was he still behaving like a 3 year old at 8? well, they started him earlier, but somehow or other, he broke his pedal bone and had to have a year off during which he grew 2 hands... also his trot and canter were very beautiful, but his walk was not a 4-time relaxed affair... more of a 2-time, latteral slide. 

Then there was Paul Fielder's 10 year old, German bred, beautiful, ready to explode any minute. He was a naughty stallion in Germany. So they gelded him and sold him to the UK. Paul acquired him as a 6 year old, and 4 years down the line, he is working at PSG... at home... provided there is no noise... at all... And his mates aren't calling too much from the stable block... Paul used the demo to do some "crowd" clapping training with him. He's never been able to take him out to a show yet. This season is make or break for him. If he's not competing, then... I'm not sure what!

Those last 2 horses, as well as another who was ridden by Tessa Fielder, also a pressure cooker who spooked at his own shadow, were trained and ridden by professionals, and yet, there were very obvious doubts as to whether they would ever "make it" at the higher levels of dressage, but as their obvious temperament issues, not their ability, was the problem, then they would not make it at lower level either... So what happens to them? What if they had been mares?

I drew my own conclusions, I'll let you draw yours!


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## Avonbrook (12 March 2012)

Maesfen said:



			Janet and CG talk a lot of sense as usual.
Weirdly, it seems those that do breed for temperament and conformation above anything else are the ones who get looked down upon, if that's the right term of phrase rather than those that go to the fashionable sires with a stunning performance record but questionable temperament that would not make it an amateur ride, which let's face it, is the larger market.
		
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Yes, I've noticed that too 

So much sense being talked in one place, I may need to go for a lie-down


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## Cherrygarden (12 March 2012)

Brave of you to go to that Ginnie, I find my natural inclination to be blunt to overpowering in some company although when I used to steward at dressage shows as a student I have to say that Mark Ruddock was the only competitor who was unfailingly polite and jolly to everyone no matter how his day was going and has stuck in my mind for that reason before anything else.
How naughty of those horses to be geldings ; )
To be fair a lot of choosing temperament is also making a good match between the horse and its intended recipient. I do breed for temperament, feet and limbs, however I have my own criterior for this as do we all. I use my own stallion and mares at the moment and will not breed from any of the offspring until I have done more with them although there are some lovely stallions about and I have been tempted. I do advertise my stallion sometimes, more to support my planning application than to have him widely used. Even then I might or might not encourage people to use him. I am always available to answer questions and help anyway I can with any of my babies once removed as I think most studs in this country in my small experience tend to be. 
To be fair though although there are genetic components to temperamental flaws/glitches that are well documented in some lines(not just warmbloods) that will present whatever the upbringing and training regime, none of us can or should guarantee that we have a stallion that can produce offspring that tolerate willful ignorance and abuse and nor should we for whatever intended field of use.


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## JanetGeorge (12 March 2012)

chrissie1 said:



			Janet, were these two horses both Warmbloods, or part WB?  I only ask out of academic interest.  Well I'm hardly academic but I would like to know.
		
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Warmblood both sides of the pedigree - although stroppy, argumentative one does have a hefty dose of Gelderlander on the mare line which I blame for many of his problems (I have limited experience with pure Gelderlanders - but based on that I wouldn't touch one with a bargepole!)

The other (who is ridiculously nervous) is by a stallion (no longer around) who has produced some very promising dressage horses but has also produced some very nervy individuals according to my research - although in her case the situation was exacerbated by lack of handling as a youngster!  But the degree of her nervousness WAS extreme - I've had wild horses in from the bush who were easier!


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## chrissie1 (12 March 2012)

Thanks Janet, and at least I will never inadvertently use either stallion!


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## Cherrygarden (12 March 2012)

I like Gelderlanders but your description did make me laugh JanetGeorge, I rode one who used to argue vocally/verbally while being ridden if he thought the request was unfair(and most of them he thought were tbh), he was great fun and brightened my day to ride but he was an awkward sod and his attitude more than his unusual conformation did hold him back for sure.


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## JanetGeorge (12 March 2012)

Cherrygarden said:



			I like Gelderlanders but your description did make me laugh JanetGeorge,
		
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You'd laugh even more if you saw the TOTAL personality change my rider who does them both has to undergo when he movews from one to the other.  With the mare it's gentle and soft and soothie, soothie, and leaning forward to give her a handful of nuts when she's been good.  With the other, his language would make a sailor blush and it's boot, boot, boot at the slightest hint he's going to nap and go up!


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## htobago (12 March 2012)

Maesfen said:



			Ciss, why aren't BYB changing their name as everyone knows that is now the acronym for Back Yard Breeders which hardly helps?
		
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I posted about this very unfortunate acronym some time ago on their FB page, and more recently again on another FB forum. Everyone seemed to agree with me that the name should be changed - to YBB which makes more sense anyway - but no response from BYB themselves so far...


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## volatis (12 March 2012)

Back to the poster who mentioned people who breed for temperament first verus people who breed to the latest flashy dressage superstar.

I think there are two important points here. Firstly temperament and ridability are different. I know horses with the nicest temperaments on the ground who when under saddle and being asked for real work, can be very difficult becuase they either cant or wont do as asked. 
Secondly I have to say I think the emergance of the internet and especially forums like this, are a lot to blame for many breeders choice of stallions. I know of lines that from first hand experience I know are difficult. And yet I see people post that their foal by that sire is the sweetest nicest etc etc....  and especially if a breeder has a foal for sale by a stallion whose heriditary ridability is being questioned, well all hell can break loose if they think any of their breeding choices might be anything but perfect.

And sadly the only way to really really know how well these lines produce is to witness first hand and ride and handle as many of them as possible. Which for most people is just not possible. So in that case it is the breeders responsibility to know their mares and those mares genetic heritage in as much depth as they can - not a rose tinted glass in sight.

I dont believe you need to sacrifice trainability for performance. But you need to really know your market and know who is going to start your horse in its early ridden years when making your choices. The Europeans have access to a lot of specialist young horse trainers which the Uk doesnt so much. And there are plenty of warmbloods over here with good pedigrees that are very safe and sensible leisure horses, so being a well bred sporthorse doesnt mean you cant also just be a happy hack.


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## Lgd (12 March 2012)

I'm a 'hobby breeder' who bred from my much loved mare BUT she has a temperament to die for, decent conformation and has proven herself having evented, been placed at County level in showing, competed to InterI dressage/working GP all with an amateur Mum who works full-time. When she went to stud at 16yo she was still sound, still had clean legs. She has produced three top quality foals. I had her evaluated at the KWPN keuring as a 19yo and the inspectors loved her. She is sadly lame now at 23yo but that was a field injury where she almost severed her SDFT :-( She is making a good recovery given how severe the injury was but will never be properly riding sound ever again.

I chose the stallion to improve on her weak points but retain the temperament and soundness. Her two surviving foals are now 6yo and 2yo, both lovely natured, cracking movers and the 6yo is proving to be a star under saddle, although we did have some teenage moments last autumn!

My other mare is now in foal and she also has a good record of soundness and performance plus a fantastic temperament. So much so, that I have had her first foal 'booked' by someone for purchase since 2007.

It drives me nuts when people go 'she's gone lame, may as well stick it in foal'. I'm not a fan of breeding from young mares with no record under saddle either. 

I do wonder how much of the explosion in suspensory ligament injuries is due to hereditary weaknesses as well as training issues.


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