# Vettings and 10 metre circles on concrete! RANT!



## natalia (29 April 2010)

I AM FUMING.

I can understand vets wanting to see the horse on a circle for a vetting, but today has just proved why I don't like them lunged on the concrete. We had a lovely little horse being vetted today, and he was flying through his vetting, until vet asked to see him on the circle on the concrete. Upon doing so he promptly slipped, fell right over and is now not only lame, but also has a variety of battle wounds to show for this (this by the way is a top class WH stamp and was meant to be at a show over the weekend with his new owners). TBH we were very lucky that he didn't break his shoulder or any limbs, so I am now refusing to let any more of my horses do this for any vet. We don't have any other level concrete area to do so, so if the vet insists on it they will have to be done in a pot holed car park. I have always maintained that this is a really dangerous thing to do and most vets normally try and  tell me it isn't, but today just proves it is. Anyone else have any experiences?


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## Amymay (29 April 2010)

I actually asked my vet (who vetted my horse) _not_ to lunge on concrete - he agreed, perhaps a little reluctantly, because he viewed it as an important part of the vetting process.

Difficult call - and I can understand your anger.  But for many it's a crucial part of the process.


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## lachlanandmarcus (29 April 2010)

my YOs parents 40+yo pony died after breaking its neck being lunged tight circles on the concrete yard. Perfectly good manege and fields yards away. Major teaching college vet too. They received an apology but too late for pony.


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## Benji1 (29 April 2010)

This narks me! I had a similar incident about 6 years ago with a horse who was being vetted for going back into ridden work, he slipped and ended up with a horrid amount of swelling on his stifle and was lame.. I'm never doing it again.


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## cloptonpartridge (29 April 2010)

I don't know a lot about vetting  but surly common sense would tell you its bad idea. I would never lunge on concrete so what good is  a vetting going to tell you about it that can't be seen from lunging in a school. I hope the your poor horse recovers quickly.


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## Amymay (29 April 2010)

I don't know a lot about vetting but surly common sense would tell you its bad idea. I would never lunge on concrete so what good is a vetting going to tell you about it that can't be seen from lunging in a school.
		
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A horse may appear quite sound when lunged on a surface - and absolutely hopping when it's done on concrete.   It can be a very useful tool when assessing a horse for purchase.  That's why vet's do it.


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## Halfstep (29 April 2010)

The problem is that this part of the vetting can show up issues which might not be found by flexion tests and lunging on a surface (particularly front foot issues/navicular/). I can totally understand why vets want to do it, but also that it can be dangerous and can cause horses to fall (sorry to hear about your horse OP).  I suppose the answer is to try to find somewhere sufficiently hard but with a bit of grip. At the moment, our fields are probably hard enough to do this on.


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## teddyt (29 April 2010)

I can understand why vets want to do it- to add stress to show up problems however many, many horses cant work on a 10m circle in a school because they arent balanced enough, let alone on a slippery surface.


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## natalia (29 April 2010)

teddyt said:



			I can understand why vets want to do it- to add stress to show up problems however many, many horses cant work on a 10m circle in a school because they arent balanced enough, let alone on a slippery surface.
		
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My point exactly! Esp. my 4 yr olds who are all legs! And lots of these are also just riding club horses, who will never be asked to go on a 10 metre circle in all their happy hacking lives!


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## mtj (29 April 2010)

trotting circles on concrete shows up bilateral lameness that isn't visible trotting in a straight line.


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## criso (29 April 2010)

Mine has a soft tissue injury in his feet and on a good day looked perfectly sound until lunged on a 10 meter circle on hard standing.
If you didn't do this he could pass a 5 stage vetting when he as an underlying issue.  This is something that would flare up if he was worked hard in any circumstance not just circles.

Someone I know wasn't able to do this part as the place he was vetted didn't have a suitable area, the horse passed  and a few months later was diagnosed with Navicular.

Luckily I have been at yards that have a suitable hard area to do this, not smooth concrete but I think it shows how when you are doing a vetting it is important to have access to the right facilities to do all the tests safely.


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## _Rach_ (29 April 2010)

I have never been asked to lunge on a circle on concert in a vetting, jsut turnthem, so there back legs cross over??


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## tasel (29 April 2010)

I know it is important to do this on hard ground, too - but tight circles, I believe, are too much for most horses - they don't necessarily wear trainers either and are probably worked up by never having had to do it before... so slipping is not too uncommon.  Running them up and down (with you running with the horse) is better in my opinion.

Thing is, I've dort of lost confidence in most vets after they failed to diagnose my horse properly for a whole year and just told me to keep her working - until her lameness just got worse.  That is because whenever they did examine her in the clinic with all the facilities, they could not "reproduce" her lameness... probably because it was a different environment and she was a bit excited, etc.  Then - there's also a problem with everything lying in the vet's perception of things.  I told them exactly where she was lame, but apparently they did not even check where I told them to, wanting to see it with "their own eyes" (how can you, if you can't even "reproduce" it).


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## Aru (29 April 2010)

Lunging on a hard surface can show up different types of lameness compared to a soft surface like a school or field.....

Its part of the vetting for a reason.Personally I wouldnt accept a 5 stage vetting without it and if the owner told me it wasnt a possibility,when they had the facilitys,id wonder if they werent willing because they were worried it would show up lameness.

It was bad luck that your poor pony feel over....but accidents do happen.
Out of curiosity was it a tight circle that he had diffficulty with or just bad luck and a slip?


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## criso (29 April 2010)

tasel said:



			I know it is important to do this on hard ground, too - but tight circles, I believe, are too much.  Running them up and down (with you running with the horse) is better in my opinion.
		
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Mine was sound in a straight line but he's not a sound horse.
After my experience I have to say I would not buy a horse unless me or my vet had seen it trot sound under these conditions.
However I would also get it boxed to somewhere to do the vetting if there wasn't anywhere suitable on site so it is safe.


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## lindsayH (29 April 2010)

I too have seen a horse go down on it's knees whilst being lunged on concrete for vetting. Thankfully, I don't have enough concrete here for a vet to do it, but after seeing that I would never allow it. I don't care if it's the only way of showing up certain problems, if I don't think it's safe, I don't think it's safe. My horse fell while lunging in the field yesterday and is a little stiff today, I dread to think how badly hurt he'd be if it had been on concrete. Any horse I sell is open to any test I feel doesn't jeopardize it's well-being, including x-rays, scans etc and if me refusing to lunge it on concrete means a sale falls through, so be it.


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## natalia (29 April 2010)

No just pure bad luck and a very bad slip and crashing fall. Horse was trotting round sound as a bell prior to this. I would like to know if vets doing vettings have some sort of insurance for this type of injury, obv. he was treated for free. I had another one go off to the vets for x-rays once for a vetting, upon unloading in their car park he stood on a farriers nail which went right in to his frog, Hey presto lengthy stay, lots of x-rays, joint flushed at said vets and £2000 vets bill. (which I refused to pay as they were liable, esp. as it was one of their nurses unloading him). I would be interested though to find out what would have happened if horse yesterday had broken anything resulting in PTS as I had expressed my concerns about doing this (as I always do) and vet told me to get on with it. Trotting on 10 m hard circles will not always show up navicular anyway, as I know a few who have passed and have it quite badly, including someone locally who got in trouble for an insurance scam, bought high powered horses with navic, got them right with one vet, then had them re vetted with diff practice and fully insured them for large sums LOU and then claimed as soon as it showed up again. I also have an SJ mare who won't trot sound on a ten metre circle due to having quite odd feet, she has clean xrays though and is competition fit and out.


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## martlin (29 April 2010)

lindsayH said:



			I too have seen a horse go down on it's knees whilst being lunged on concrete for vetting. Thankfully, I don't have enough concrete here for a vet to do it, but after seeing that I would never allow it. I don't care if it's the only way of showing up certain problems, if I don't think it's safe, I don't think it's safe. My horse fell while lunging in the field yesterday and is a little stiff today, I dread to think how badly hurt he'd be if it had been on concrete. Any horse I sell is open to any test I feel doesn't jeopardize it's well-being, including x-rays, scans etc and if me refusing to lunge it on concrete means a sale falls through, so be it.
		
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I'm with you on that one, luckily I don't have concrete yard, just hardcore, but I have previously refused to let a vet at a vetting put a dental gag on a 4 yo without sedation, just to have a look at teeth


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## Aru (29 April 2010)

natalia said:



			No just pure bad luck and a very bad slip and crashing fall. Horse was trotting round sound as a bell prior to this. I would like to know if vets doing vettings have some sort of insurance for this type of injury, obv. he was treated for free. I had another one go off to the vets for x-rays once for a vetting, upon unloading in their car park he stood on a farriers nail which went right in to his frog, Hey presto lengthy stay, lots of x-rays, joint flushed at said vets and £2000 vets bill. (which I refused to pay as they were liable, esp. as it was one of their nurses unloading him). I would be interested though to find out what would have happened if horse yesterday had broken anything resulting in PTS as I had expressed my concerns about doing this (as I always do) and vet told me to get on with it. Trotting on 10 m hard circles will not always show up navicular anyway, as I know a few who have passed and have it quite badly, including someone locally who got in trouble for an insurance scam, bought high powered horses with navic, got them right with one vet, then had them re vetted with diff practice and fully insured them for large sums LOU and then claimed as soon as it showed up again. I also have an SJ mare who won't trot sound on a ten metre circle due to having quite odd feet, she has clean xrays though and is competition fit and out.
		
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Poor pony hope he recovers soon...
As for insurance. Id say the vet is cover for general work and malpractice by the BVA at the very least.
However I doubt that they would be legally obliged to do anything.Harsh though it sounds ..technically by asking for a full 5 stage vetting you take on the fact that the horse is going to be handled lunged as expected of that type of vetting.....the horse falling over was just bad luck,the type of surface that he fell on again bad luck, but accidents do happen.The vet most likely treated for free because they appreciate clients not because they would be considered legally responsible.
No more than a risk of a tear is when rectal is done,injury is a risk of the procedure.

 The car park was the vets failing their duty of care to the client by being negligent and not keeping the surfaces safe for horses.....a horse falling over when lunged is a different story.

Though im no legal eagle im just going on what we have come across in collage.


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## Booboos (29 April 2010)

So sorry to hear about your horse. Horribly frustrating!

I have had horses lunged on concrete, but always because we suspected a problem and the vet always asked if I was happy to take the risk. I did the lunging myself as I felt I knew the horses best and had the best chance of slowing them down, but accidents will happen.

I haven't had a vetting on a horse in 3 years so not sure what the usual practice is now, but previously 5 stage vettings did not seem to standardly include lunging on concrete (lunging on a surface to check heart rate after exercise yes, but not on a tight circle on concrete). However, I heard of another horse that was lunged on concrete during the vetting the other day, is this now standard practice for 5 stage vettings?


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## Flame_ (29 April 2010)

So you'll refuse a full vetting to all future potential buyers? Good luck selling anything, lol.

Jogging a small circle on a firm surface is the most reliable basic test for front feet issues, so it is an important part of vettings. Plus your horse shouldn't really fall over that easily.


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## Flame_ (29 April 2010)

Booboos said:



			I heard of another horse that was lunged on concrete during the vetting the other day, is this now standard practice for 5 stage vettings?
		
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I bought a horse two years ago and I specifically asked the vet to lunge the horse on concrete. He said they do it anyway with everything now.


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## Aru (29 April 2010)

martlin said:



			I too have seen a horse go down on it's knees whilst being lunged on concrete for vetting. Thankfully, I don't have enough concrete here for a vet to do it, but after seeing that I would never allow it. I don't care if it's the only way of showing up certain problems, if I don't think it's safe, I don't think it's safe. My horse fell while lunging in the field yesterday and is a little stiff today, I dread to think how badly hurt he'd be if it had been on concrete. Any horse I sell is open to any test I feel doesn't jeopardize it's well-being, including x-rays, scans etc and if me refusing to lunge it on concrete means a sale falls through, so be it. 

I'm with you on that one, luckily I don't have concrete yard, just hardcore, but I have previously refused to let a vet at a vetting put a dental gag on a 4 yo without sedation, just to have a look at teeth
		
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Its fair enough that you'd be concerned for your horses they are your pets and it makes perfect sence
 ....but i do feel the need to defend the vets(ya i know im bias but still) they are just trying to do their job....and to do a 5 stage vetting your ment to cover certain basics...Plus there is a very stong chance that its the vet who will be blamed if  all areas arent all covered and something goes wrong further down the line....
Sadly these days its beginning to become a rule of practice to always cover yourself first!because people do sue...


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## Kenzo (29 April 2010)

I refused to have this done when the vet asked me to lunge Mack on the concrete car park on our livery yard, obvioulsy I understand the need to but was not prepaired to have him slipping and injuring himself, instead we did on hard surface in the yard...on the cobbley stones, which could of made him lame  which I wasnt keen on either, however it needed doing some way or another, anyway he was sound as pound, thankfully.


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## stencilface (29 April 2010)

I don't think our vet has ever done this to ay of ours!  We've never had any long term soundness issues with any of them either.

I can see wanting to lunge on a firm surface, but why not grass, or gravel?  Anyone is welcome to lunge my horse on grass (I lunge in my field, its not flat, and its also a bit bumpy atm!) but I would say no way to lunging on concrete


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## Amymay (29 April 2010)

Plus your horse shouldn't really fall over that easily
		
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What a stupid thing to say.......


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## martlin (29 April 2010)

Aru said:



			Its fair enough that you'd be concerned for your horses they are your pets and it makes perfect sence
 ....but i do feel the need to defend the vets(ya i know im bias but still) they are just trying to do their job....and to do a 5 stage vetting your ment to cover certain basics...Plus there is a very stong chance that its the vet who will be blamed if  all areas arent all covered and something goes wrong further down the line....
Sadly these days its beginning to become a rule of practice to always cover yourself first!because people do sue...
		
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Is it really necessary though to put a dental gag on? I was happy for it to be lightly sedated to do it if needs must, but I would imagine you can have a good look at the teeth without a gag


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## Flame_ (29 April 2010)

amymay said:



			What a stupid thing to say.......
		
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Not really, I wouldn't want a horse that fell over if I trotted it round a bend on the road.

It is pretty stupid to lunge on a particularly slippery surface.


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## stencilface (29 April 2010)

Flame_ said:



			Not really, I wouldn't want a horse that fell over if I trotted it round a bend on the road.

It is pretty stupid to lunge on a particularly slippery surface.
		
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Concrete being, erm, slippy?!!! 

I wouldn't expect a horse to fall over on the road no, but they do.  In walk, mys sisters horse did this and was fine, but my sister broke her collar bone.

A horse (potentially young) lungeing is far more likely to fall on concrete than a horse being ridden and 'controlled' by a rider


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## Booboos (29 April 2010)

Flame_ said:



			Not really, I wouldn't want a horse that fell over if I trotted it round a bend on the road.

It is pretty stupid to lunge on a particularly slippery surface.
		
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I'm totally lost here! Concrete is a particularly slippery surface which is why it is controvercial to lunge on it, hence the point of the post!

If the road had a bend similar to a 10m circle bend personally I would not trot any of mine round it and I don't have particularly clumsy or lame horses.


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## Amymay (29 April 2010)

I'm totally lost here! Concrete is a particularly slippery surface which is why it is controvercial to lunge on it, hence the point of the post!
		
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Precisely!


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## Flame_ (29 April 2010)

With driving we trot everywhere.

I suppose "firm surface" is what i meant but I expect horses to be able to do a slow trot on a normal road surface and I don't think the vet can be blamed for this horse falling over unless the owner OKed using a surface that they know horses slip everywhere on.


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## Kenzo (29 April 2010)

It's not about the horse falling over because it can't control its legs, its about slipping.

When concrete warms up in the sun it becomes more slippy.

Not everyone's horses are shod with road studs/nails.

The wear on the shoes will also effect how slippy the concrete will be.

So what may be safe enough for one horse to lunge on concrete, may not be for another.


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## Aru (29 April 2010)

martlin said:



			Is it really necessary though to put a dental gag on? I was happy for it to be lightly sedated to do it if needs must, but I would imagine you can have a good look at the teeth without a gag

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Im still only a student so havent a hugh amount of experience with dentistry yet....just the basics.

You can get a ok look at the teeth without a gag...if the horse will tolerate it..but if you have a gag why not use it?

Its safer for handler (after all it is the vet whos going to be injured if the horse objects and we are self employed so an injury can mean no woking or income until you recover)
Plus you do get a better look with a gag than without one.
Especially at the back of the mouth where most problems will be missed in a simple exam and while not some horses do object most will tolerate it fairly well..
But then it depends on what you are looking for i guess...and more importantly what the client wants of you  
A simple exam fair enough...a full one...then if you have a gag use it and do the job right.


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## criso (29 April 2010)

The vets I use have always talked about lunging on a circle on hard standing not necessarily concrete. So if the only hard surface available is slippery concrete then I would be looking at seeing if the vetting could be done somewhere else.

But as I said before having a horse that on a good day will trot up sound on a straight line on concrete, trot sound on the lunge on a surface and has clean x rays but does show lame on a circle on the hard, it's a test I would want a horse I buy to pass.


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## maisiemoo (29 April 2010)

Oh my god ! .this happened to me last thursday, vet nurse was lunging my horse on concrete blindfolded to study photic headshaking , she fell tried to get up and fell again, i,m now tending to both knees and a nasty graze on her hock, not a happy bunny !!!


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## seabiscuit (29 April 2010)

Lunging on concrete is absolutely vital and criticall to test for lamenesses that you cant see otherwise.

But never EVER lunge on slippery concrete for chrissakes!! Always lunge on some sort of rustic concrete with a light covering of stones /tiny stone gravel. That is perfectly safe.

If you go to any vet hospital they will have this specific surface for the purpose of lunging on hard ground. My horses have been lunged for 10 mins or so on these surfaces and never taken one slip.

Its common sense- a) the vet should never have agreed to lunge your horse on this surface if your particular area of concrete was so slippery and b) next time you have a horse vetted, make sure you have an appropiate area as described above, so that your horse is safe.

It IS safe to do this- owners just have to be more viligant as to what sort of area they are lunging their horses on.


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## Biscuit (29 April 2010)

This is an interesting discussion.

Two comments:

1) just out of interest, what type of lameness can you catch while lunging in a 10m circle on concrete, that would not be caught while trotting in a straight line following flexion? would be interesting to hear precisely which tendons/muscles/tissues it affects.

2) do you agree that an unshod horse less likely to slip on concrete?


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## criso (29 April 2010)

_CJ_ said:



			This is an interesting discussion.

Two comments:

1) just out of interest, what type of lameness can you catch while lunging in a 10m circle on concrete, that would not be caught while trotting in a straight line following flexion? would be interesting to hear precisely which tendons/muscles/tissues it affects.
		
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In our case DSIL, DDFT, and collateral ligaments inside the hoof where they can't be xrayed.  On the basis of how the lameness presented vet suspected soft tissue damage inside the hoof and MRI confirmed this.

And even on a circle it was subtle - a misstep maybe every 2 or 3 times on each circuit.

But often the sort of issues that vets group under navicular syndrome and Caudal foot pain.


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## Amymay (29 April 2010)

tendons/muscles/tissues it affects.
		
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It's just as likely for foot issues - pedal, navicular, coffin.

I suspect that if I had allowed my horse to be lunged at his vetting on concrete - I would not have bought him, as it would have shown clear bilateral lameness.

More fool me..........


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## Persephone (29 April 2010)

Mine was 5 stage vetted 4 years ago, she wasn't lunged on concrete. I would have remembered! 

In fact I had three before her vetted that I turned down and none of those were either.

They did the tight turns, crossing the legs and flexion but no concrete lungeing.

I wonder how many places do have an ideal concrete surface that would be safe to lunge on?


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## Flicker (29 April 2010)

What about horses that just won't lunge?  My lad is a saint, but becomes satan when he's on the lunge.  I'm sometimes dubious about lunging him in the school because he has such a, uh, good time.  There is no way in hell I would even contemplate trying to lunge him on concrete!


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## JanetGeorge (29 April 2010)

I've had about 8 horses vetted in the past 18 months (as seller) and vets have wanted a 'hard surface' but not concrete!  We use the lorry parking area which is well-packed hardcore.   Even that can be a bit slippy for a big youngster so I always start them off VERY slowly while they get the hang of it.  (all horses passed!)

I would refuse to do this on concrete!


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## Cat&Mouse (29 April 2010)

Might be being thick but surely trotting up on concrete & taking them in a circle would be to the same effect, but the handler would have more control & be able to make sure the horse is more balanced & doesn't turn to sharply. A 10m circle is ridiculous & I suppose this is standard for a 11hh games pony & a 17hh shire, Stupidity to the max!!! 

I would be buggered if any of mine needed a vetting I haven't got a big enogh patch of concrete for that & I wouldn't let them do it anyway!


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## Booboos (29 April 2010)

I've had a horse sound on everything else but lame on lunge on 10m circle on concrete because of navicular. HOWEVER, it was very mild and all we did was change his shoes and he continued as before so I think it's all relative and I would not necessarily pull out of a sale because of this.


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## Amymay (29 April 2010)

Might be being thick but surely trotting up on concrete & taking them in a circle would be to the same effect
		
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No, because the limbs will act and fall differently on a circle.......


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## Lucy_Nottingham (29 April 2010)

There is a large difference between the effects of trotting in a striaght line on concrete and having equal weight and pressure down each limb. Trotting on a softer surface (like a menage) on the lunge where, although it may flag up major lameness issues on the inside fore normally (but not always!) trotting on the concrete on the lunge puts increased pressure and force on the limb on the inside of the circle and more on the limb on the outside (but obv less than the inner limb) and increased concussive forces (which is why it is often not done for long periods of time) 
I agree though should not be done on inappropriate surfaces..... however some places only have what they have and that can make it difficult for the vet as lunging on a hard surface is one of the requirements for a 5 stage vetting.......... if they cant do it, they cant pass the horse........... they can fail it but say it was fine on everything else and you can buy it but it wont have a pass on for insurance, or they can pass it, risk it going horrendously lame after someone buys it and then they get sued!!! (one of/possibly they most common this for an equine vet to get sued for is vettings!) So can't really blame them for trying to complete it....... but then people would be p*ssed if they didnt do it coz of lack of facility or unsafe to do it as then they cannot have the vetting.......

viscious circle!  

With regards to the teeth............. yes you can view teeth by grabbing the tongue and pulling it out the side of the horses mouth to make it open up....... however, not sure a 4yo would be keen on this either!  
Also it only really allows you a quick view in there, and not much detail. And quite frequently the worst ramps and hooks are on the back molars and you cannot see those by holding the tongue and so yes the gag is necessary to do a thorough assessment of dentistry  Plus, it also helps with attitude assessment (ok i know some horses flat out detest the gags.......... but if they become viscious with it etc it is worth being noted before saying o yes the horse is 100% fine!  ) 

Vettings are great for the buyer as they flag up any problems with the horse, but are a pain in the arse for sellers sometimes and vets are either really good at them or s**t it because if they miss something or something random happens when the buyer buys then there is a 95% chance they will get sued....... 

ahhh aren't I looking forward to graduating next year! ............................


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## martlin (29 April 2010)

So would you say it was a standard of 5 stage vetting to do full dental examination with a gag on?
And why would you refuse to slightly sedate for that if you were informed by the seller (me) that the horse needs sedation for dental work?
ETS: sorry for hijacking the thread


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## Cat&Mouse (29 April 2010)

amymay said:



			No, because the limbs will act and fall differently on a circle.......
		
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I realsie that, thats why I was saying for them to trot the horse in a circle but not as tight as 10m & not on a lunge but with a individual handler.

My horse bronks for the first few mins on the lunge that would be nice & safe


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## Lucy_Nottingham (29 April 2010)

Sorry no I don't mean the horse has a full dental exam and sort out (obv not  ) But the gag allows you to see the majority of the teeth and have access to the back molars (which you can't really see that well even with a gag in, and as I say these are often the ones which have problems.

Also the vet couldn't sedate it as a) it would mess up the bloods and b) for trotting up, riding etc it would be unsafe to do it with the horse sedated, even lightly!


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## KatB (29 April 2010)

Lunging on a circle is NOT a compulsory part of a 5 stage vetting. It is completely up to the vet carrying out the vetting.


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## Aru (29 April 2010)

KatB said:



			Lunging on a circle is NOT a compulsory part of a 5 stage vetting. It is completely up to the vet carrying out the vetting.
		
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It might not be compulsary but its what they are teaching in the collages as standard practice now... the different generation's of vet's however may have a different way of doing things though.

The problem as per usual is the litigation side of things....if the vet doesnt do it then can the horse still be passed as sound on a hard stand surface?
and more importantly, in the vets eyes ;p ,  can they be sued if they pass a horse as sound and it then comes up  lame  due to an issue that should have shown up on lunging in that manner...that the vet didnt check when they had the opportunity? 

Its true that the vetting is for the day it is done ....but that has never stopped people sueing equine vets over them....


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## martlin (29 April 2010)

Lucy_Nottingham said:



			Sorry no I don't mean the horse has a full dental exam and sort out (obv not  ) But the gag allows you to see the majority of the teeth and have access to the back molars (which you can't really see that well even with a gag in, and as I say these are often the ones which have problems.

Also the vet couldn't sedate it as a) it would mess up the bloods and b) for trotting up, riding etc it would be unsafe to do it with the horse sedated, even lightly!
		
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Of course he could have sedated it, after all the other parts o vetting were finished and the bloods taken, simples


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## Lucy_Nottingham (29 April 2010)

sorry what i meant when i said that it was necessary was some practices have policies on what MUST be done by their vets in a vetting..... I wasnt meaning it was THE LAW  and Aru is right though about it being taught to do it now....

And with regards to sedation and dentals etc I do agree and can see your point on it, but in some cases (not urs but some less than respectable people) the horses teeth will be horrendous and when ridden will be totally unacceptable and it would be the vets responsibility to check that the horse is fit to be ridden before it is so (hence why full physical and lameness work up is done prior to the riding section of a 5 stage vetting) so although I see your point in the majority of cases that wouldn't really be feasible. (But please dont think im saying ur horses teeth wud be unacceptable, thats not wat i am saying!  )


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## MissMincePie&Brandy (29 April 2010)

You must be livid. I would be too.

I had a 5 stage vetting last year, when I bought my TB, and the vet didn't do this and explained to me that they don't do this procedure any more on contrete, because it isn't safe.


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## Hollyberry (29 April 2010)

I refused to let a vet do this to my connemara mare as he had already failed her on a flexion test - he then proceeded to carry on with the vetting and took bloods before telling the buyer she would never be good for anything other than hacking.  She had slipped in the field 2 weeks before and 2 weeks later was vetted again and was completely sound.  This vet also ran a sharp key along her back to see if he could get a reaction, unfortunatley I didn't know he had done this as a friend was in the box with her and I couldn't see what was going on.  I told the vet not to come to my yard ever again.  I felt sorry for the buyer as the mare was perfect for her daughter and she was being bamboozeled by the vet to complete the vetting in full.  I would have stopped it at the flexion if I had known but it was really her call, she was paying.  I have heard a lot of unease about this particular vet since then and although I know he is probably in the minority I will now not stand for anything that I consider unfair or  unnecessarily unpleasant for my horse, after all it is still my horse until it is bought.


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## Louby (29 April 2010)

My horse has a big walk and can slide in walk on concrete so to trot 10m circles would be an accident waiting to happen.  
At our vets they do lunge on hard standing for lameness work ups but it isnt concrete and it is done after the horse has got rid of any over exitement in the menage.
When my horse was vetted (on the previous owners premises), he was trotted up on concrete and he was sliding arround like bambi, he was just 4 at the time and had just had his first set of front shoes on so I suppose he wasnt used to the fact he could slide all over, it was scary.
I do think it is a good indicator to use but concrete isnt the place to do it.
I hope your horse is ok soon.


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## Maisy (29 April 2010)

Surely it depends what kind of concrete it is??  As previously posted, the vet clinics have concrete areas for this purpose which has been 'roughed up' to ensure it has some form of grip.  Smooth concrete would be far more slippery.

As for putting a dental gag in a 4 yr olds mouth....I dont really understand the problem??  Surely the horse has one in for routine dental treatment anyway???  My 3 year old has had one in several times and hasnt come to any harm???

If you refuse to let your horse be subjected to the tests that the vet wants to carry out, it is surely not 'open to vetting'....or certainly not 5* ones anyway.  I wouldnt want to buy a horse that I hadnt seen trotted on a circle on a hard surface, as I have recently seen several horses of friends who appear sound in a straight line, but can barely complete a circle!


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## Sam22 (29 April 2010)

If your horse has to be sedated for a dental gag then it should be done at the end of the vetting. Many older vets don't use gags at all and just pull the tongue to the side but a broken tooth at the back of the mouth can easily be missed without a proper examination with the gag in. 
Of course the purchaser may not wish to payout the additional cost of sedation but that is their choice and the vendor would have to accept the small risks of sedation.


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## Mrs. Jingle (29 April 2010)

\hmmm ....interesting one this - I know the only way my old boy shows up with navicular is on small cirlces on hard ground. Having said that I would not want ANy of my horses lunged on concrete - would rather lose the sale.

Had a VERY expensive horse up for sale few years back. Lady wanted him for endurance. Agreed the price and asked if I was Ok with a 5 point vetting. Said absolutely fine as he was very fit and knew of no problems. 

she then proceeded to tell me that she hated watching her vet as it was like watching a baby have its teeth pulled. Asked why. she said because he lunges them until they can hardly stand, the more fit the longer he lunges, dripping sweat and hardly able to breathe!

Promptly told her she wouldnt be buying my horse - if that was what her vet would want to be doing eith MY very fit horse he would be here for hours trying to get him to that point  and I did NOT want a quality horse ruined mentally or physically by a sadistic vet!


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## martlin (29 April 2010)

Maisy said:



			As for putting a dental gag in a 4 yr olds mouth....I dont really understand the problem??  Surely the horse has one in for routine dental treatment anyway???  My 3 year old has had one in several times and hasnt come to any harm???
		
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It does, after being sedated. I don't have a problem with putting dental gag on him - after sedation.


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## natalia (29 April 2010)

Who ever said they don't need to be lunged on the hard for a vetting- your completely right, the more old school vets don't do it full stop. Personally I hate the just out of college vets and won't let them any where near my horses (not even the ones from our practice, as they couldn't diagnose a murder). Problems seem to arise when these fresh out of school vets turn up, desperate not to get sued or told off by employers and pull the poor horses apart, just to try and fail them on something. We had one recently who flexioned every joint in the horses leg separately (so thats 2 flexions on each leg), then lunge on the concrete, then in the soft, then ridden work. After ridden work its normally a quick trot up, then bloods and done, BUT NO, not this bloody vet, then it was lunge on the concrete again, then back on the soft then flexions again (twice on each leg again) horse by this point was dead on its feet and wouldn't trot off in hand, she flexioned the hind again and then when he wouldn't trot off pulled him straight back up and reflexioned it. Hey presto, possitive flexion test (you would be too if your leg was yanked and twisted for 2 whole minutes... :/) Vet has then found her excuse to fail horse, client is in tears and gutted. Worst thing was that the horse wasn't being vetted for Badminton, it was too do local unaff to lead up to doing a few intro events next year. This was a vet from a well known horse hospital down south and certainly won't be welcome back at mine. EVER. Said horse flew through a 5* vetting the week after with a more sensible vet and a different happy new owner.


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## Lucy_Nottingham (29 April 2010)

please dont paint all new vets with such a bad mark!!!!   

Also new vets shouldn't be doing vettings anyway you should be at least 3-5 years out of uni before doing one (in my opion and those of vets I have worked with) 

You are right you dont have to do it on concrete, but doing it on a hard surface is a good idea if the facilities are available! if not, then vet should explain to client that they would like to but there is nowhere safe to do it... if buyer is happy with that then the vetting will continue........ in my opinion.........


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## JanetGeorge (29 April 2010)

martlin said:



			So would you say it was a standard of 5 stage vetting to do full dental examination with a gag on?
And why would you refuse to slightly sedate for that if you were informed by the seller (me) that the horse needs sedation for dental work?
ETS: sorry for hijacking the thread
		
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All the vets who have vetted horses I've sold (mainly 3 & 4 year olds) HAVE put a gag on for examination - and it's never been a problem.  IF a horse was impossible to put a gag on without sedation, I can't see why a vet would refuse to sedate with the owner's consent - IF the potential buyer agreed (They are paying for the vetting) or the vendor offered to pay for sedation.  However, if I was having a horse vetted to purchase myself, I would expect the vet to tell me about this 'problem'!


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## JanetGeorge (29 April 2010)

natalia said:



			Personally I hate the just out of college vets and won't let them any where near my horses (not even the ones from our practice, as they couldn't diagnose a murder). Problems seem to arise when these fresh out of school vets turn up, desperate not to get sued or told off by employers
		
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That's a dreadfully sweeping statement!!  I prefer NOT to have the newly qualified vet if I don't know what's wrong with a horse but in an emergency they can at LEAST administer a 'holding' treatment until a more senior vet can be consulted.

I had just such a situation last week with a mare who'd had a BAD foaling - although in that case I was pretty sure it was pain from bad bruising.  Young vet and I discussed his findings - heart rate (high), temperature (normal), gut sounds (normal) etc. and we agreed to treat with anti-inflammatories.  I declined his suggestion of a manual examination as 1) I didn't think it was necessary at that stage, and 2) I thought she was too sore to have that sort of 'interference' if it WASN'T necessary.  He accepted my view with good grace.   As it turned out, that treatment did the trick.  If I'd waited for senior vet, she'd have been in a LOT of pain for at least another 4 hours!  (Although I confess I DID demand senior vet be dragged out of bed 2 years ago rather than accept Junior vet in whom I had no faith - but the mare WAS in dire straits!  He saved her!)


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## RSL (29 April 2010)

Is not something I would have thought vets would allow, I know I wouldn't consider it, was it just walk?


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## Halfstep (29 April 2010)

As a buyer, paying for a 5 stage vetting, I expect to see the horse lunged on a hard surface (a safe one). I would also expect to have the teeth examined properly.


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## GreedyGuts (29 April 2010)

A dental examination is not part of a 5 stage vetting, and the VDS actually advise vets not to do it. An estimation of age by dentition is a part but this is better done without a gag so that you can actually see the front teeth.

I don't lunge horses on a concrete when I do vettings because of the risk of them falling (which is well recognised). I do agree however that it is important to see them lunged on a hard surface as circling does show up lameness that may not be apparent on the straight.

Unfortunately purchasers have to accept that a 5 stage vetting is a limited examination done on a single day and cannot detect every problem that may or may not crop up at sometime in the future. A basic 5 stage vetting is potentially quite a simple examination, but because of purchasers' expectations vets are getting more and more defensive in the way they perform them to avoid getting criticised/sued, which results in more and more minor problems resulting in horses going unsold.


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## benson21 (29 April 2010)

If the horse that I had vetted a few months ago had been lunged on a hard surface, I believe it would of shown up problems, and we wouldnt of ended up buying a horse who ended up lame and with a bad back within weeks. if I paid for a 5 stage vetting, I would expect now, in hindsight for it to be lunged on a hard surface.


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## Lucy_Nottingham (29 April 2010)

GreedyGuts - so do you not assess the dentition (not aging, just assess the general state of the teeth) for a 5 stage? the ones i have seen (still currently a student!) have all done this. Is this likely to be practice policy then rather than one of the requirements?


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## YorksG (29 April 2010)

With regard to 'new' vets, we have always been happy to see them. When our all time favourite vet retired (sob sob) he and his wife sent us a card thanking us for helping them to train their new vets over the years!  We always knew that if we disagreed with the diagnosis, or the treatment, we could call the main man for a second opinion. Over the years we (or the poor horses) have had to put up with a rasped tongue (the most co-operative 14.3 cob in the world), a variety of patronising young people and some pretty silly questions, however we felt that they needed a training ground and we knew THE vet would sort out any major problems, we also knew that he would ask us how they had gone on the next time we saw him.
There is a local very good local horsewoman who uses a very well respected local practice, BUT has the numbers of two of the vets and absolutely refuses to use any of the others, or even speak to the receptionist! They still go out to her though


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## Lucy_Nottingham (29 April 2010)

gosh i hope i get to work with constructive clients like urself! I am dreading going to a ayrd and having the clients that go: O ur new aren't you.... i want X sorry.......

it'll be like....... erm....... ok...... but im here now?!


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## cptrayes (29 April 2010)

Lucy_Nottingham said:



			gosh i hope i get to work with constructive clients like urself! I am dreading going to a ayrd and having the clients that go: O ur new aren't you.... i want X sorry.......

it'll be like....... erm....... ok...... but im here now?! 

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Lucy you'll be fine, just remember that a really experienced horse person knows more about horses, particularly their own, than you do. Treat us with respect and most of us will return it.


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## YorksG (29 April 2010)

LOL I think some of them dreaded coming to us on the first visit, I'm not sure what they were told as they left the surgery, but more than one looked terrified as they drove into the yard! Especially if they had got lost on the way (which most people do!). I have always thought that THE vet and his wife (who was his head nurse) set the poor souls up to be at least worried about us, possibly by telling them that we would be reporting back! (Mind you t'was true 'cos we did)


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## MegaBeast (29 April 2010)

Re what the point is of lunging on a hard surface...

I bought a mare with low heels/flat feet and my vet (technically old school as is in his 50s) wanted her lunged (trot 10m circle) on concrete as he said it's "the most extreme test that can be done for low heels".  No problems with it.  I understand peoples concerns with it but do view it as an essential part of the vetting process as it will highlight potential areas for concern that work on a large circle/"good" surface or trotting up in a straight line even after flexion tests won't


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## glenruby (29 April 2010)

Gosh Natalia - what a horrible statement to make. Im glad I dont have any clients like you! having qualified a year ago and attended numerous serious accidents/cases (inc RTAs) I have yet to meet anyone like you. No-one has turned me away on the basis of my age, nor complained that I am incompetent or useless (as you describe new-grads to be) - Im sure competent new grads are not in the minority either! Perhaps if you were more tolerant of those VETS they would perform better in your presence. I count myself lucky!!


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## glenruby (29 April 2010)

- Back to the topic - I would be of the opinion that trotting on concrete would not be ideal, its more usual for it to be done on hard standing such as a gravel surface over concrete (as long as its not deep). In fact im not sure I have ever seen a vetting trotted on concrete. In our clinic, the receptionists inform vendors/purchasers that certain facilities are required for vetting and if these are not availabe then horse should be moved somehwhere suitable or to the clinic (where we have a good hard-standing lunge area).


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## Lucy_Nottingham (29 April 2010)

I hope I won't be in too deep (hoping i get an equine job when i graduate!) as have been round horses....... forever! and therefore also all sorts of "horsey people" but also learnt not to take people for granted and also remember some clients take what you say and twist it to make "drama"........

one vet I worked with is lovely and we went to see a horse that had lami and basically it was a welsh D show cob and it was massively obese........ the owner asked for opinions on weight (before we got to talking about treatment/management changes etc) and the vet said that he could do with losing a little and suggested management/feed changes etc and explained how this would help with the lami etc.

Next day I was with one of the partners, this owner rang up screaming about the fact the other vet had said her horse "was grossly obese" "a porker" "was disgusting" etc etc............ partner was very good, then asked me if it was true once off the phone and I had to be honest and say no...... but he said its quite normal for that client to do that unless he or the other partner go out.............

that is the kind of client i am dreading!!! (hoping you will all be nice to me though!  )


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## Dottie (29 April 2010)

mtj said:



			trotting circles on concrete shows up bilateral lameness that isn't visible trotting in a straight line.
		
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I'll just add my two pence worth 

My horse is sound in a straight line, but is crippled lame on the lunge on the hard. When i come you buying another horse i will insist to see it lunged on the hard. 

Sorry to hear about your experience OP.


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## YorksG (29 April 2010)

Well glenruby, turn up to most yards with that attitude and you will feed the prejudice! Turn up at my yard with that attitude and you would leave immediately. I would then ring the partner/s and complain about you and your manner.


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## natalia (29 April 2010)

Yorksg- fully agree, vet with that attitude would be chased off with a pitchfork and surgery rang and fully moaned about. I have my reasons for requesting the more experienced vets at the practice, we have a lot of horses so to have something misdiagnosed can severly stuff us up (recent case of when young vet said a horse had strangles comes to mind, it had a infected bite from a tick, but thats another story.)


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## Lucy_Nottingham (29 April 2010)

can i ask, would you turn away a new vet for vaccinations or dentals? Or if they were the only person available at the time of an emergency?


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## glenruby (29 April 2010)

Why? Because I believe that a client shouldnt be prejudiced against a vet just because they look young? If they are competent - or have been given the opportunity to be then then age should not be a problem. If they have been proven incompetent or are not up to the job in-hand then thats a different story. 
Im lucky, i have excellent back-up and supportive colleagues, but am also capable of working up a case - and my clients know that I can AND WILL ask my more experienced colleagues for advise (and history if Im not familiar with the animal). Therefore, any horse etc is at no greater risk in my hands than in the hands of any other vet in my practice. I have gone on numerous calls to clients who have called my boss directly and begged him to see ther sick horse. He has often sent me in his place reassuring the client that I will look after their horse/pony to a high standard of care (and owner too!) and each and every one of he has had a phone call from tha night/the next day to say how pleased they were with my attitude and the care i have given their pony and that they would be more than happy for me to see their pony again.
Every young vet has to develop their skills in practice - they should have basic competencies upon leaving college that will not allow them to miss basic/important signs of diease and any good practice will have a support system in place that will ensure the best care is given to the horses they treat.


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## glenruby (29 April 2010)

For the record I have a number of lrge yards, racing yards and competition yards for whom I do a lot of the main work, routines, vaccs, foaling checks, lameness exams etc. 
I am not aggressive, nor patronising nor incompetent but frankly just get sick of hearing (and especially reading on this forum) complaints about vets - particularly against young vets.  Absolutely no problem if this is because a particular individual is rude or incompetent but to generalise and suggest all new grads are incompetent rude etc is wrong. I understand looking for a senior vet in a genuinely serious siuation or perhaps in a lameness work-up but in most situations that should not be required.


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## YorksG (29 April 2010)

One skill is customer relations, another I would have thought would have been the ability to read! If you read my posts, I have welcomed young vets and been thanked by partner/s. One of the skills of any profession where you deal with the public is to speak politely, sometimes even in the face of hostility, not to get on your high horse and tell people how much more than them you know! That attitude will not stand you in good stead with most horse people (might be ok with some horse owners admittedly)


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## natalia (29 April 2010)

New vet for routine work fine, vacs would be fine. However, I won't have anyone do horses teeth but proper EDT, this is due to surprise surprise a new vet trying to do a pony I had a few years ago, who she spent about an hour on, went home, pony was a fruitcake and very thin and we sold him for meat money (we had his teeth done as I felt there was a problem there and this could have been cause, but couldn't get hold of normal dentist fast enough). New owners rang us a month later to say that they had had a proper EDT out to him who had to sedate him and had said he had some of the worst teeth he had ever seen and had to have extensive dental work. After this pony was sane, rideable and putting weight on and winning in the ring. This was a top class pony, who was JA pott. who we ended up selling for peanuts as vet didn't do his teeth properly and told us they were "fine". FYI she no longer works for the practice. I personally feel that new vets should be on a probation period where more difficult cases are undertaken with senior vets, ie first visits to new problems as it would stop a lot of hassle.


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## Luci07 (29 April 2010)

Just to go back to the original thread.. when Goose was put through a 5 * some 4 years ago, he was lunged on a hard surface on a 10m circle by a lovely and very old school vet... so its not just newbies!

He had his first lame hop in the school on Saturday. Took him out, trotted him up, nothing showed, YO put him on a circle outside the yard - could see immediately he was hopping. Turned out to be nothing major, he had managed to slice a small piece of frog so was poulticed then padded up the following day.


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## Booboos (29 April 2010)

I don't see how anyone can generalise from one case. A vet can be bad because they are young and inexperienced, or elderly and out of date with modern practices, or middle-aged and uncaring, but why turn this into a generalisation for everyone who happens to resemble the person who annoyed you/harmed your horse?

For what it's worth our current vet was right out of Uni when he first came to us, but he cared for the horses from the first day and that makes a huge difference. He has never scared of saying if he needed to consult with colleagues, he always arrived with a book on the more complex stuff and talked me through what he was planning to do and he is willing to listen! He is now a partner but partners don't grow on trees, they grow out of newly qualified vets!


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## Flame_ (29 April 2010)

Off topic but I'd just like to add that there are thorough, enthusiastic vets and there are dismissive, generally useless vets. IME this runs about equally amongst new vets, experienced vets and ancient vets. 

I'd include any vet nowadays that on request from a buyer didn't check for lameness on a circle on a firm surface among the useless, as heel pain is such a common problem. I wouldn't be surprised if the insurance doesn't insist on it as part of the vetting. If they don't, they very soon will.


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## glenruby (29 April 2010)

Yorks - and I did not see anything wrong wth what you had said. Feedback is a good thing. I then found it strange that you had a go at me based on my responseto another poster. From re-reding my post I can only assume that the "offending " part was VETs in caps. That was because, in natalia's previos post she (IMO) appeared to refer to them in v derogatory terms. After 5 years of study (and for many 20+ years of equine experience) I do think ANY vet (infact nyone) who is asked to your yard (regardless of age) is entitled to reasonable treatment. If they are then found to be incompetent - treat them as you wish. But remember the old saying - you cant tell a book by its cover.

Natalia - in most good practices, new grads are treated as such  and yes its agood thing, but time restraints and financial constraints means it isnt always feasible. Also different people learn and become competent at different rates. A basic clinical exam and colic exam or stitch up is a basic entry level requirement in practice.However, most other procedures will be first performed in the presence of a senior vet ( for example - nerve and joint blocks, castrations, peritoneal and joint taps). I would agree that all of the above should not be carried out by a new graduate for the furst time without supervision. However bear in mind that a young vet who is "new" to th practice may have been workin in another practice for a period of time and then be expected to be upto a minimum standard by their new practice (and thereby may not be as closely watched while still not quite being capable of carrying out certain procedures unguided).


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## martlin (29 April 2010)

glenruby said:



			I understand looking for a senior vet in a genuinely serious siuation or perhaps in a lameness work-up but in most situations that should not be required.
		
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Don't feel offended glenruby, but at the end of the day, if I'm the paying CUSTOMER, I will request presence of any vet I bl@@dy please... My reasons don't have to be known, it doesn't matter, if I want X I will request for X to come out, end of.


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## glenruby (29 April 2010)

Of course - and during daylight hours if he or she has time to see your horse thats perfectly reasonable - but even the best vets are entitled to some sleep - so if your horse colics in the middle of the night and aother vet is on call (and im not necessarily talking about a more junior vet being on call here) - then Im afraid, for the most part, the client would have to deal with the vet that turns up (and client is of course always entitled to ask for referral etc). Or am I wrong? Would you still expect your vet to turn up on his night off?  Maybe have him out if your horse needs a recheck but otherwise Im sure another similarly qualified vet would suffice in those circumstances...?


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## Wishful (29 April 2010)

Vets seem to be damned whatever they do. If they don't lunge a horse on a hard surface, they get sued if the horse turns out to be lame later (regardless of who wins, it isn't nice!).  If they do, the current owner thinks that they are endangering the horse, and considers them incompetent!  

Concrete can be slippy if dry and dusty - the place I ride always wets the yard before a ride comes in if it's dry, to minimise the slip potential.  

It can be difficult to tell how experienced (or how old) a vet is.  My OH is 33 and more than 6 years qualified - he still gets taken for a student at first sight - when he gets out the car, before he's even been near a horse (and gets ID'd from time to time for buying alcohol (admittedly we both do!))

If no-one but the "senior" vet will do, how do you cope when they retire, or go on holiday, or just have the flu. Most vets discuss cases with colleagues a lot - OH gets lots of calls from colleagues when he's not on call (or is on holiday) to check they are doing the right thing with horses, and OH will call the equine partner if he has any doubts about things, and will read around anything complex, just to check he's not missing something.  For more complex cases, he's got a network of contacts, from CPD, university, seeing practice and previous referrals who he can phone up and ask questions (often free of charge).

There's not that many equine vets around (under 5000 in the UK rings a bell) and given that up until now there were only 6 vet schools (and adding one more won't make a huge difference) people tend to get to know each other making a decent support network.


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## glenruby (29 April 2010)

Exactly wishful - and any Tier 2 prctices will have to have regular "audits" of cases/incidents as well as practice meetings where cases are discussed. In our practice cases are discussed everyday - everyone is quite familiar with any ongoing case regardless of whether or not they have yet been involved with them. I regularly cht with the other vets at my practice and ring them for advice. Many clients welcome this. And they know that if its really necessary, another vet will come out to assist with a case.
The other day my boss offered to comeout to assist me on a particular call - I accepted his offer but was fairly happy to do it myself. In the end he didnt make it  but eveything went well and he was very pleased with the results (and the client was v happy too). If I had been stuck he would have been there but it wasnt necessary.


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## martlin (29 April 2010)

glenruby said:



			Of course - and during daylight hours if he or she has time to see your horse thats perfectly reasonable - but even the best vets are entitled to some sleep - so if your horse colics in the middle of the night and aother vet is on call (and im not necessarily talking about a more junior vet being on call here) - then Im afraid, for the most part, the client would have to deal with the vet that turns up (and client is of course always entitled to ask for referral etc). Or am I wrong? Would you still expect your vet to turn up on his night off?  Maybe have him out if your horse needs a recheck but otherwise Im sure another similarly qualified vet would suffice in those circumstances...?
		
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Before we moved, I was in the very fortunate situation of having 3 vets in my local practice that I 'liked', so one of them would always be available, in fact, my favourite one didn't seem to sleep, eat or go on holidays
Nowadays my vet is a one man band, so there is no another partner/junior vet whoever to come out instead - how he copes, God only knows, but he manages to get to me in 20 minutes tops! I'm not sure if I should admit it, but he supplies me with 'emergency supplies' of finadyne, buscopan, bute and ABs as well as whole array of livestock drugs - this supply is here in case of his delay in an emergency...


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## Pearlsasinger (29 April 2010)

cptrayes said:



			Lucy you'll be fine, just remember that a really experienced horse person knows more about horses, particularly their own, than you do. Treat us with respect and most of us will return it.
		
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glenruby
I would suggest that you take this advice - it is very good!

"Every young vet has to develop their skills in practice - they should have basic competencies upon leaving college that will not allow them to miss basic/important signs of diease and any good practice will have a support system in place that will ensure the best care is given to the horses they treat."

I think you will find that that is the view of those experienced horse people who have reason to object to newly qualified vets attending their animals.

I'm afraid if someone with a year's qualified experience came onto my yard with the attitude you have shown in your posts in this thread, s/he would be asked to leave immediately.

"For the record I have a number of lrge yards, racing yards and competition yards for whom I do a lot of the main work, routines, vaccs, foaling checks, lameness exams etc. 
having qualified a year ago and attended numerous serious accidents/cases (inc RTAs) I have yet to meet anyone like you."

I'm afraid that I do not consider this to be a broad enough experience to diagnose anything but the very common/routine problems.  I would hope that if you are asked to attend a serious accident etc that after the immediate first aid you would ask for help from a more senior practitioner, as you in fact said yourself "Every young vet has to develop their skills in practice".  I quite agree that we all have to learn but I do not expect to pay for the privilege of having some-one make mistakes on MY animals.  I have learned through bitter experience that the best vets will say "I'm not sure but I will find out" Whilst the worst ones stand by their  first thought, whatever the outcome.

Incidentally, I am rather surprised at the low standard of spelling demonstrated by vets/students on this thread.  Surely accuracy is essential when writing a prescription at least?


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## YorksG (29 April 2010)

All professions have the curse of the newly qualified! It takes some time to realise that there is much more that you don't know than that you do! My own profession has the same curse tbh.
The problems I have encountered with newly qualified vets have led to the deaths of two of my horses. These vets were not at the practice where THE vet was the owner, and were allowed too much autonomy for their knowledge base.


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## glenruby (29 April 2010)

Ah, but then you dont have a problem with unwanted vets do you??  
I suppose the only positive to being on call every night in a one vet band is that its not likely to be too busy as its a smaller client base - but still when they all call you at oce you are screwed!!


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## martlin (29 April 2010)

glenruby said:



			Ah, but then you dont have a problem with unwanted vets do you??  
I suppose the only positive to being on call every night in a one vet band is that its not likely to be too busy as its a smaller client base - but still when they all call you at oce you are screwed!! 

Click to expand...

LOL! he always seems to be dropping everything to come to me immediately, must scared of my wrath or something
The thing is, everybody seems to be using the poor sod, I have no idea how he copes, especially in lambing/calving season


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## natalia (29 April 2010)

martlin said:



			LOL! he always seems to be dropping everything to come to me immediately, must scared of my wrath or something
The thing is, everybody seems to be using the poor sod, I have no idea how he copes, especially in lambing/calving season

Click to expand...

We work hard to obtain "rottwieler" status!


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## glenruby (29 April 2010)

The spelling mistakes in my posts are due to faulty buttons and dyslexia (therefore missing letters/disorered rather than mistakes). After a long days work/night on call - my splling on a forum is not my biggest priority.
As for attitude, as has been said repeatedly on this forum, its very difficult to correctly assess how  poster intends their post to be read. Nothing I have posted was written in a "holier than thou" mentality - which some of you seem to have found.
Of course I have back up, many resources and as i said earlier discuss my cases daily with the other vets. If i feel I cannot get to the bottom of something or am not satisfied that I am making a difference, then I do not hesitate to get another vet to examine/take over if necessary. 
As for the emergency situation. I am competent to initially assess a patient following injury/illness. All of the vets I know ask for another vet to help with stabilising/diagnosing/treating etc in the case of emergencies. I am no different. Of course not. I do not profess to be able to do everything - I merely say that I ( and i blieve the majority of ther new grads) are capable of assessing the situation and carrying out a clinical exam/administering first aid and pain relief in those sort of situations.


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## YorksG (29 April 2010)

glenruby, I am pleased to read this, (post above) the tone is very different from the one which sparked this debate. Please be aware that many of the posters on this thread, including me, have reason to dislike perceived arrogance in newly qualified vets. The 'older' horsepeople will have seen many illnesses, which the newly qualified have only read about, one of the ways for any professional to devlop their skills and knowledge is to listen to those who know through expereince. I frequently am involved in the training of junior medics, their initial belief that their knowledge surpases that of all others, is always brought crashing down and then they have to suffer the indiginity of asking for help. This would be much better for them and patients if they started off by knowing that they don't know it all.


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## brighteyes (29 April 2010)

*glenruby*and *Lucy_Nottingham*

You missed out 'female' and newly qualified.  Everybody run for the hills...


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## Pearlsasinger (29 April 2010)

natalia said:



			We work hard to obtain "rottwieler" status!
		
Click to expand...

But not too hard!  In some cases it comes naturally

glenruby, may I recommend the spellcheck function which is provided on this new forum format.

QR
One of the best vets I have known was terrified of horses (although always willing to come out) but a fantastic clinician.  He very often left us, having made a diagnosis and recommended treatment, to go and read up as much as possible about the particular illness, even if only to confirm his original opinion.  We did have many a laugh at his expense, which he knew, but would never have refused to allow him to treat our horses because he approached us as partners in the treatment of our animals.


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## Wishful (29 April 2010)

yorksG said:



			glenruby, I am pleased to read this, (post above) the tone is very different from the one which sparked this debate. Please be aware that many of the posters on this thread, including me, have reason to dislike perceived arrogance in newly qualified vets. The 'older' horsepeople will have seen many illnesses, which the newly qualified have only read about, one of the ways for any professional to devlop their skills and knowledge is to listen to those who know through expereince. I frequently am involved in the training of junior medics, their initial belief that their knowledge surpases that of all others, is always brought crashing down and then they have to suffer the indiginity of asking for help. This would be much better for them and patients if they started off by knowing that they don't know it all. 

Click to expand...

The perceived "arrogance" could also be a front, an act to help the vet not feel utterly terrified that they are going to the 'scary' client who knows everything and might try and get them to do something that could get them struck off - one of the main things any professional training involves is scaring the trainees about how many ways they can be struck off!  It takes a while for the training scare stories to be watered down by experience...  

Being a vet is a vocation (no one in their right mind would do it for the money or the lifestyle!) so the majority care about doing the best possible for their patients, and balancing the financial/emotional needs of the owner with what is in the best interest of the animal - hence the "is he insured" question - the possibility of a referral is relevant to the treatment of a lot of cases, especially somewhere like here, where the nearest hospital which regularly sees colic cases is at least 1 hour away in a horse box, so it's often safer to refer early if there's any possibility of the colic being surgical.  Similarly with wounds on/near a joint which need flushing, an insured horse will generally be referred to a more specialist surgeon/hospital for a GA while where cost is an issue, there is enough expertise in house to carry out a standing joint flush.  

One of the big difficulties for vets straight out of university is that universities are generally referral centres, so you will see more uncommon diseases than common ones!  It's all to easy to start thinking that the uncommon things are more common than the "usual" ones because that's what you see most of...

Also, surely in a dire emergency, a young, fresh, not too tired pair of eyes can be better than someone with bags of experience who's been called out every night for a week. I know I feel tired when the phone goes in the middle of the night and I just roll over and go back to sleep until OH reappears - I hate to think what state a single handed vet would be in after a week of 1am foalings!


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## wonkey_donkey (29 April 2010)

Blimey, no wonder horsey people get labelled as nutters. I can see why after reading this  vet-bashing post    :-O


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## YorksG (30 April 2010)

Wishful, have you ever heard the song about never seeing a farmer on a bike 
Other professions are also seen as vocations, work long hours, do many years training and earn a fraction of what vets earn. It is that type of comment which helps to allienate others.

Wonky_Donkey not vet bashing, stating ex0periences and suggesting a little humility is in order from some newly qualified professionals.


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## martlin (30 April 2010)

yorksG said:



			Wishful, have you ever heard the song about never seeing a farmer on a bike 
Other professions are also seen as vocations, work long hours, do many years training and earn a fraction of what vets earn. It is that type of comment which helps to allienate others.
		
Click to expand...

With you on that one


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## Starbucks (30 April 2010)

TBH I think vettings in general are a load rubbish.  We never bother (we buy cheapies) but can understand what is ok and what is not. Have known lots of horses that have passed and then been knackered within months and also ones that have failed but have gone on for years!

Friend of a friend had one vetted and the vet said it passed but didn't think it would stand up to the work (not a lot) because it didn't have enough bone! They didn't buy it.. looked like a lovely horse to me!!


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## glenruby (30 April 2010)

Last thing i am going to add - Wishful is dead on with the " perceived arrogance" part - if all new grads went out on a call with their head hung low, and lacking self confidence (or at least a front that appears similar) then no one would ever let them set foot in their yards. Plus its the one thing the boss was wary of when taking on a new grad - that they wouldnt be able to handle the difficult clients - he has been pleasantly surprised. And to be fair, most clients that have diagnosed their own horses lameness/illness when I speak to them on the phone have been wrong. How many times does a vet get called out to  horse with a fracured leg/sifle injury to find the horse has a whopping great foot abscess - its at least a weekly occurrence! The best thing is indeed to work with the owner (who knows the horse best and can give you a better insight to what is normal for the particular horse) to find out whats wrong. Also - I would think EVERY young vet (and most older ones) does read up on any case they are not sure of or havent come across before - I certainly do, its how we broaden our knowledge. I would expect nothing less from a vet - if they dont contact you afterwards to tell you they have gathered further information then its because they gave you the right instructions the first time I would think.

Also as for Junior doctors being the same - I have many friends and acquaintances who are doing/have recently qualified as doctors - their self confidence and arrogance is incomparable to that of ANY recently qualified vet I know.


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## Wishful (30 April 2010)

I know that the vet profession is losing vets rapidly - quite a few are becoming doctors, going into the city, having kids and coming back part time or not at all.  In 20 years time, there could well be a hole in the number of "senior" vets as so many are not sticking it out now.  There already seems to be a bit of a gap in the age demographic of vets around there.  There are quite a lot of junior vets in their 20s and early 30s, and there are a good number in their late 40s up.  Theres' very few aged between 35 and 45 - signs of an issue.

I know that there are other vocations less well paid than vets, but the issue is that people who have the academic ability to get into vet school are generally the most desireable graduates for any profession (straight As, focussed, quick thinking and logical).  Exactly what the big banks, law firms and accountancy firms want.  A cynical student (and their pushy parents) would consider those options, compare hours and rates of pay and take a decision based on money, and the fact that for most of those, you are earning (or at least funded) in half the time.  The comparison with the medical profession is even more direct - similar skill set (diagnostics, bedside manner, science).  A newly qualified GP gets paid about treble what a newly qualified vet gets, and doesn't have to do out of hours.  The NHS also pays some tuition fees.  With top up fees, the average vet student doing vet as a first degree will end up with £30k of student loan - a mature student doing vet as a second degree will probably double that.  Thus the vet profession ends up recruiting the idealistic students, some of whom will end up so disillusioned that they leave after 5 years of being accused of being too young, or "not my vet"!  How disheartening do you think that is for someone who has worked hard for something they've wanted for a large proportion of their life?  

Some vets have made the error of adding up their working hours, and dividing their gross salary by the number of hours (ignoring out of hours work) - generally you can make more at McDonalds, or any other minimum wage work.  Think the worst mentioned has been £2.70/hour, before tax!  And people wonder why vets have one of the highest suicide rates of any profession...

Of course everyone assumes that vets are loaded, because they generally have big, relatively new cars.  The only vets who seem to think they have enough space for stuff (to be prepared for most eventualities) have big double cab pick ups.  Older cars won't hold up to the work - 30k miles per year on back roads, heavily laden tends to kill cars very efficiently.  OH's 06 Honda needs retiring pretty soon - on 120k miles - still looks relatively new on the outside, but mechanically it is suffering!


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## Lucy_Nottingham (30 April 2010)

I apologise for my spelling!! basically i type quick and if im honest....... didnt really think it was a huge problem on here (of course in professional circumstances I would be much more thorough!  )

Wishful........ we are the one more vet school!!  hi!  we also are not hospital based, we are first opinion based (our rotations are majoritally 1st opinion with some (enough! Not minimalistic) hospital/referal work) as they feel we should be well established in basic/common things occuring commonly problems, diseases, presentations etc.... which works well for me as my aim is to be a really good first opinion ambulatory equine practitioner  (not setting bar to high right?!  )

I hope my people skills will come across when i set foot on a yard, so far everyone has been very welcoming and happy to let me do basic things e.g. blood sample and vaccinate etc their horses as a student (which has helped my confidence in my skills and abilities no end and I always ensure I show my gratitude afterwards). So this has also given me hope that most clients will be happy with me as a new graduate for most thing but i agree a new graduate should not be doing more complex procedures (e.g. joint taps etc) without a senior practitioner/partner there (and i wouldn't want to do it without them at first! TBH I am terrified of getting sued so I want to do as much as possible to avoid it! Although i doubt most people go out with the intention of..... lol)

I think everyone seems to have good points from 2 different sides of a fence here........ but Id also like people to remember that we (new grads... including me in 12mnths!) won't improve and become the good senior vets you like and respect so much if you don't allow us to do anything with your horses.... I agree really scary/difficult cases you will feel much happier with a senior practitioner there and doing it, but we may be there as well for experience, assistance etc... I personally hope I am given a chance on most yards to prove myself as the caring, polite person I hope I am... and get to show the owners/clients that the animals health and welfare etc IS my main priority and Im not just out to have a go at sticking X, Y and Z in them to see what happens!  

God graduating is going to be scary!!


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## Booboos (30 April 2010)

I for one couldn't care less whether my vet can spell or not!


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## Moggie (30 April 2010)

Lucy_Nottingham said:



			I apologise for my spelling!! basically i type quick and if im honest....... didnt really think it was a huge problem on here (of course in professional circumstances I would be much more thorough!  )

Wishful........ we are the one more vet school!!  hi!  we also are not hospital based, we are first opinion based (our rotations are majoritally 1st opinion with some (enough! Not minimalistic) hospital/referal work) as they feel we should be well established in basic/common things occuring commonly problems, diseases, presentations etc.... which works well for me as my aim is to be a really good first opinion ambulatory equine practitioner  (not setting bar to high right?!  )

I hope my people skills will come across when i set foot on a yard, so far everyone has been very welcoming and happy to let me do basic things e.g. blood sample and vaccinate etc their horses as a student (which has helped my confidence in my skills and abilities no end and I always ensure I show my gratitude afterwards). So this has also given me hope that most clients will be happy with me as a new graduate for most thing but i agree a new graduate should not be doing more complex procedures (e.g. joint taps etc) without a senior practitioner/partner there (and i wouldn't want to do it without them at first! TBH I am terrified of getting sued so I want to do as much as possible to avoid it! Although i doubt most people go out with the intention of..... lol)

I think everyone seems to have good points from 2 different sides of a fence here........ but Id also like people to remember that we (new grads... including me in 12mnths!) won't improve and become the good senior vets you like and respect so much if you don't allow us to do anything with your horses.... I agree really scary/difficult cases you will feel much happier with a senior practitioner there and doing it, but we may be there as well for experience, assistance etc... I personally hope I am given a chance on most yards to prove myself as the caring, polite person I hope I am... and get to show the owners/clients that the animals health and welfare etc IS my main priority and Im not just out to have a go at sticking X, Y and Z in them to see what happens!  

God graduating is going to be scary!! 

Click to expand...

Well said Lucy. I'ma serial lurker here but feel compelled to reply here. The "new vet bashing debate" has been going on for longer than you have probably been in horses, so don't take it personally. I know you professionally in the equine industry (I taught you a couple of years ago  ) and I would have total confidence in your ability as a vet.I'm sure however you have been taught at uni about the different types of horse owners - you will meet some who view their horse as a child and will call you out in a panic if Teddy doesn't eat his tea, and you'll come onto some  large professional yards like mine where we will have told you the entire clinical case history and what the horse needs in terms of treatment before you get out of your car!!
I hope most people have the decency to keep their opinions about newly qualified vets to their kitchen tables and internet forums, and to treat you with the same professionalism as you do to them.

Regarding spelling - Lucy is a very bubbly, enthusiastic girl and this does come across in her typing on forums, emails to me, etc - I've never even noticed the "lack of correct spelling" some posters have highlighted, to me as I read it I can hear Lucys voice and energy exactly!


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## reindeerlover (30 April 2010)

Wow! If I was a Vet I would stick to cats and budgies, at least the owners aren't as likely to use a pitchfork.... 

I have to say that I disagree that "a very experienced horseperson" will know more about horses that a Vet. I think it is a very sweeping statement and certainly something which makes people think *bloody horseowners* after speaking to them. Many horseowners or horsepeople know A LOT about horses, particularly their own when it comes to their behaviour and peculiarities but Vets STUDY horses- anatomy, physiology, disease, handling. They come out of College with open minds and are greeted by horsepeople who have been "doing things this way for 40 years" and are closed to suggestion. 

People who are closed to suggestion and have been doing things the same way for 20/30/40 years MAY have been doing things WRONG for this amount of time and to think that their way is the only way and not consider changing because new information has been discovered/researched is doubly arrogant. My qualified Farrier and Equine Dentist (let's not start those arguments again) are rather arrogant but I actually quite like that demeanor in a professional as long as they are also prepared to accept that I also know something about horses and discuss things in a professional way.

My Vet is fantastic, I have no idea how old she is- possibly mid 30's? I trust her to come with an open mind and discuss all eventualities with me, also respecting other professionals who can help. 

With regards to lunging on hard ground- I would expect to have this done in a vetting but again, would expect that it be done in a safe way which probably would not involve slippery concrete. Probably a bad call from your Vet but I might have insisted that it be done elsewhere.


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## YorksG (30 April 2010)

Wishful, a new GP will have done two years rotation as a house officer post qualifying and two years rotation with specialisation as a GP trainee, so not entirely comparable with a Vet graduate who goes straight into practice following graduation.
I have not been 'bashing' newly graduated vets, my comments were in response to posters on this thread. The comments about the 'best' students are again the sort of thing which puts off other people. While I accept that the accademic qualifications to enter vet school are high, they are for other courses as well, or even, shock horror, people with good grades, choose to follow the other vocations as well. 
A lot of the professions are now having the same demographic problems, with the health and social care professions looking at a huge problem in the next 10-15 years, there are so very few in the 35-45 age bracket, when the older lot retire there is almost no-one left to take over


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## Lucy_Nottingham (30 April 2010)

Thank you Moggie!


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## Nickie (30 April 2010)

Any vetting is not a nice process but if it shows up lameness by a simple test then I'm all for it!  I had a 3 year old that the new owner wanted vetting, the vet asked for her to do some tight circles on concrete and she slipped a bit after losing her balance which then resulted in a slight lameness and she failed the vetting.  Luckily her new owner decided that she was still going to buy her and all is well and we are in contact at least once a week for updates.  Can see it both angles really.


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## Wishful (30 April 2010)

yorksG said:



			Wishful, a new GP will have done two years rotation as a house officer post qualifying and two years rotation with specialisation as a GP trainee, so not entirely comparable with a Vet graduate who goes straight into practice following graduation.
I have not been 'bashing' newly graduated vets, my comments were in response to posters on this thread. The comments about the 'best' students are again the sort of thing which puts off other people. While I accept that the accademic qualifications to enter vet school are high, they are for other courses as well, or even, shock horror, people with good grades, choose to follow the other vocations as well. 
A lot of the professions are now having the same demographic problems, with the health and social care professions looking at a huge problem in the next 10-15 years, there are so very few in the 35-45 age bracket, when the older lot retire there is almost no-one left to take over 

Click to expand...

I've worked in the city and seen how the city firms recruit - let's just say that vet schools are on their target list, and they are very good at selling the life!  I also have pushy parents.  Pushy parents look at the £££s and push their child away from things that don't pay as well - being a vet student means longer before you get paid, you can't earn in the holidays as you have to do unpaid work experience (you got paid £300 per week plus expenses for law firm work experience, more for other city summer associates).  I was told in no uncertain terms that I could not try for a job where I wouldn't be able to support myself once I left university (i.e. Bar training) becuase my parents didn't want to support me as a junior barrister.   There would have been resistance to doing post graduate qualifications as well unless completely funded.  A lot of families will push kids away from being a vet because of the level of debt it will incur (5 years of uni, limited ability to do paid work in holidays) and the time before earning.  

When I was at school looking at Degree courses, Vet, Medicine, Cambridge/Oxford and law at about 3 other universities specified 3 As as their minimum requirement.   The vet courses are probably also the most over-subscribed - other than some specific (and much smaller courses).

I can see there being a major recruitment issue in the medium term. If the working time directive comes into full force, there will be major issues in the veterinary provision in this country.  More vets will be needed to do the same amount of work (where are we going to find them?) or all vets will have to become partners.

Yes, an NQ vet is not the same as a new GP. But 6 years after leaving university, when they are fully qualified, they have had some substantial step ups in salary.  Vets only get step changes in salary when they make partner, if they can afford to put up the capital for that in the first place.  GPs also do little or no out of hours work, deal with one species only, and don't even have to put in stitches, do X-rays or much other than diagnosing and prescribing.


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## YorksG (30 April 2010)

If the vet courses are over subscribed, then surely that means there will be more of them? I do not doubt what you are saying, but it still does not make it appropriate for some newly qualified vets to be arrogant. As I have said in previous posts, I have no problem with newly qualified vets, except those who arrive with the attitude that all horse owners are stupid, know nothing and should be greatful for the new vet bothering to turn up! As vetinary practices are  buisinesses, it would suggest to me that a bit of customer service is required, along with vetinary knowledge. At the beginning of this thread I had little problem with young vets, the approach of those 'defending' young vets has actually made me more wary of them!


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## benson21 (30 April 2010)

Been thinking this for a while, and will probably be slated for saying it, but I am actually feeling sorry for the OP.  What has all of this got to do with her problem? feel this thread has been somewhat hijacked.


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## Aru (30 April 2010)

My spelling and grammer is terrible...i am aware of that  
...but i use HHO for fun and relaxation....so when i reply i just tend to just type and not give grammer etc much thought. If you judge me on my typing and grammer alone I may come across as a complete idiot.  English has never been my strong point and I dont have a hugh amount of intreast in the nuances of the language...shrugs.
In a proffesional setting things would be different.

Vet bashing posts do come up a lot on horse and hound though ... wether people realise it or not this place can be very anti vet at times and it is disheartening to read.
I know that its just a reflection of the world in general that the negative comes up more often than the positives but still....

As for the new vet bashing debacle....
If newly qualified vets do not see normal practice and do procedure's how are they ever ment to learn and become the more experienced partners of the future?
Yes ,some of the more difficult cases or more advanced procedure's require an older partner to give guidance or for the grad to offer assistence and observe initially..but how will they ever learn if they never get the opportunity to actually work?
We do weeks of seeing practice and clinical procedures in collage and in our own free time and are expected to have a certain level of competance before we are ever allowed to  qualify.
But there is no way to cover every procedure we need to know in collage...there simply isn't time.So learning on the job is part of Veterinary life....and it never stops.With the changes and advances that are going on in animal medicine all vets should constantly be learning new things and about new procedures.What was standard practice 10,20 years ago may be completely different now.

I understand that it does come across poorly to point out we got high grades to do the course...and that it can be percieved as arrogance to illustrate that...but it is still true.If you get into vet your expected to be academic and you need to be driven,very bright or just plain lucky to come out with the grades...we could have been sensible and chosen careers based on future earnings...but instead we went for Vet.Its a lifestlye choice more than a job.If you see it as a job I dont know how you'd stick it long term.

My older brother is doing Medicine and Im doing Vet so i have some insight into the differences between the two courses as we often do compare and contrast...in general the discussions ends with him telling me I should quit and do med...better money,a better lifestyle and easier time in collage and less dangerous.. and bar the lifestyle I can't argue about any of it.

I cant imagine ever arriving out to a yard and treating an owner like they knew nothing about their horses..new graduate or not that's just rude.But id hazard a guess and say more a charactor flaw than a issue produced by beng a new graduate.

Then again this post will no doubt come across poorly..Im not great at explaining what i mean in writing sometimes,but that is the joy of an internet forum i guess.


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## Kat (30 April 2010)

yorksG said:



			If the vet courses are over subscribed, then surely that means there will be more of them?
		
Click to expand...

No it means that if there are 7 unis offering the course and each uni has 50 places a year we get 350 new vets a year and 350 places for undergraduates each year. If the course is oversubscribed it simply means say 700 are applying each year and half of them are disappointed. The number of new vets stays the same. 

Sadly it is the same with other courses too, dentistry for example. We have demand for more new dentists, to the extent that we are importing qualified dentists from all over but there aren't enough places at dental school. 

The way universities are funded doesn't help either, courses like Vet are expensive to run, so why add more places when instead you could accept more undergraduates onto cheap to run courses like say law. This means that you get less vet graduates and more law graduates, leading to the situation we have now with shedloads more law graduates than there are jobs, inability to get vocational on the job training and plummeting salaries (in all but the magic circle firms salaries for new lawyers are rubbish - often lower than starting salaries for teachers or nurses!). It isn't just these professions either, we are getting discrepencies in supply and demand all over.


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## Indy (30 April 2010)

I have used my senior vet for over ten years and he is fabulous.  I always make sure he is the one who comes out.  He always asks me what the problem is and what should we do and I'm like 'well Tom, your'e the vet aren't you meant to be telling me what to do'

However on two occasions I have had to use the on call vets - both junior and recently qualified.  One was for a colic and one for tendonitis and they were both fantastic and very professional.  

OP I'me glad your horse didn't hurt itself badly - it could have been a lot worse.

Personally I'm not one for vetting, all of my horses are free ex racehorses and with the legs they've got my vet would have laughed my out of the county.


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## Booboos (30 April 2010)

Increasing the numbers of students in medicine, veterinary science, dentistry, etc. is really difficult because of what is required to teach them. If I want to accept another 20 students in philosophy it's easy because I just add them to my lecture and run one more tutorial. In medicine, for example, I would need to find more labs, more rotation placements, more anatomy demonstrators, more cadavers, more doctors willing to teach, etc.

I remember when the government kept pushing for more doctos and we had ended up with classes of 270 students when the lecture theatre would seat only 250, anatomy demonstrations went up from 2 students per cadaver to 12 students per cadaver and we had to beg doctors to teach (not because they did not want to, but because they didn't have time!).

OP: apologies this post is totally hijacked, but I find the topic interesting and important. Hope you don't mind too much!


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## Kat (30 April 2010)

Completely agree Booboos, it is the same for science and engineering subjects too. Something the government needs to look at. The other problem can be bottle necks too, in medicine I believe they don't have a problem with the numbers of uni places but it is the number of registrar jobs that cause a bottle neck meaning that there are never enough consultants (or it could be not enough SHO positions to fullfill all the registrar positions I forget). A friend of mine's husband ended up moving to south africa to continue his training.


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## Angua2 (30 April 2010)

I must be one of the few that doesn't care whether it is the senior or junior vet that comes out.... at the end of the day, I need my animal treated although I do tend to like the vet to keep it simple and talk to me in terminology so I understand 100%.  I also dislike haveing the first question.... is this animal insured. however, I have been known to refuse to use a vet if I feel that my trust or my animals have been abused, and will not hesitate to give feedback to the surgery.  How do people learn if they are never told


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## MagicMelon (30 April 2010)

I'm surprised by this, I've never been asked to lunge on concrete and gone through several 5 stage vettings...  I've lunged in tight circles but only been asked to do so in the field or on a surface.  On concrete, they only want me to do the flexion test bit.


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## sare_bear (30 April 2010)

Wishful said:



			I know that the vet profession is losing vets rapidly - quite a few are becoming doctors, going into the city, having kids and coming back part time or not at all.  In 20 years time, there could well be a hole in the number of "senior" vets as so many are not sticking it out now.  There already seems to be a bit of a gap in the age demographic of vets around there.  There are quite a lot of junior vets in their 20s and early 30s, and there are a good number in their late 40s up.  Theres' very few aged between 35 and 45 - signs of an issue.

I know that there are other vocations less well paid than vets, but the issue is that people who have the academic ability to get into vet school are generally the most desireable graduates for any profession (straight As, focussed, quick thinking and logical).  Exactly what the big banks, law firms and accountancy firms want.  A cynical student (and their pushy parents) would consider those options, compare hours and rates of pay and take a decision based on money, and the fact that for most of those, you are earning (or at least funded) in half the time.  The comparison with the medical profession is even more direct - similar skill set (diagnostics, bedside manner, science).  A newly qualified GP gets paid about treble what a newly qualified vet gets, and doesn't have to do out of hours.  The NHS also pays some tuition fees.  With top up fees, the average vet student doing vet as a first degree will end up with £30k of student loan - a mature student doing vet as a second degree will probably double that.  Thus the vet profession ends up recruiting the idealistic students, some of whom will end up so disillusioned that they leave after 5 years of being accused of being too young, or "not my vet"!  How disheartening do you think that is for someone who has worked hard for something they've wanted for a large proportion of their life?  

Some vets have made the error of adding up their working hours, and dividing their gross salary by the number of hours (ignoring out of hours work) - generally you can make more at McDonalds, or any other minimum wage work.  Think the worst mentioned has been £2.70/hour, before tax!  And people wonder why vets have one of the highest suicide rates of any profession...

Of course everyone assumes that vets are loaded, because they generally have big, relatively new cars.  The only vets who seem to think they have enough space for stuff (to be prepared for most eventualities) have big double cab pick ups.  Older cars won't hold up to the work - 30k miles per year on back roads, heavily laden tends to kill cars very efficiently.  OH's 06 Honda needs retiring pretty soon - on 120k miles - still looks relatively new on the outside, but mechanically it is suffering!
		
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I am in full agreement with this being in this situation myself. Having spent 6 years at uni studying hard to do something I love, I am now on a career break and am very likely to look for another career.

Having been in equine practice for 6 years, I have loved most aspects of the job, especially when working 'up north'. Sadly in my last 2 years I ended up in a job in the SW and to be honest the clients were really hard going. They only wanted to see a certain vet that they had had for years and were generally ungrateful. I even got asked to leave a yard, when I dropped by to check a horses bandage (fractured leg) one evening  on my way home without charge.  Hate to think what the yard was hiding. Sadly long hours, poor pay, lack of social life was doable, but sadly to have ungrateful clients really did it for me and am sad to be looking for an alternative job.

So to all those who won't have a vet new in to the practice (regardless of how qualified they are), please bare in mind that most vets are trying to do the best they can and welcoming them on to the yard will make there day much better, rather than greeting them with 'you aren't my usual vet, I don't want you'!! 

Anyway this some how seems to have strayed from OP's original post, which I am not going to get into!


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## YorksG (30 April 2010)

No one has said that they will not have a new vet! I have no idea where this came from. We have said we will not have arrogant new vets, who are rude and patronising, or who obviously do not know their job. I will not have anybody on my yard who fits that description, no matter why they are there. If I am paying for them to be there, then they had better remember their manners. All are treated with respect when they come through the gate, and I expect the same in return.


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## Echo Bravo (30 April 2010)

Surely the original post was asking horse to canter on concret, as I wouldn't canter on the road never mind concret. the vet was asking for trouble and I'm surprised she hasn't sued.


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## ChesnutsRoasting (30 April 2010)

Crikey, I didn't realise there were so many arrogant, self-satisfied vets about! Or over-protective, know-it all horse owners!


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## Echo Bravo (30 April 2010)

So I take it Blazzingsaddle you would be happy to canter your horse on concrete 10 metre circle??????


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## Lucy_Nottingham (30 April 2010)

JR - I think the OP's horse fell in trot on a 10m circle on concrete, which is commonly (not always!) done in a 5 stage vetting.

The majority of the post seems to give the impression its a mixed bag with regards to this test as to whether or not its done either due to the vets, the owner, or the facilities available.......... 

and I agree I am not a fan of cantering on roads.... trotting i am ok with though!


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