# Bit to get horse off the forehand but not strong?



## Lisamd (2 January 2014)

My gelding is inclined to go over bent on the flat and get on the forehand. On the flat I can rectify this but jumping its a bit more difficult, especially related fences where he is bowling on a bit.

I know the long term goal is to train him to stay up off his forehand but is there anything bit wise that would help in the interim with keeping him up and off the forehand to make our life easier?

He isn't strong as such but does like to bare down in my hand to a fence, so I don't want anything strong that will make him back off as I have him nice and forward to a fence after working long and hard on that!

He's currently in a ns loose ring snaffle (quite a narrow mouthpiece) with a peanut in the middle, a Micklem bridle and no martingale.

Thanks


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## avthechav (2 January 2014)

As you know gingie can haul me along when he gets going, leans on to his forehand, we get faster and faster and end up running into the bottom of an Oxer and skidding to a dramatic halt! I started using a Wilkie / beval snaffle which was good indoors but outdoors I still would lose him about halfway round when my weak inept body would get tired and he would get stronger.  Like you say lots of schooling to get the hind end into gear has helped but I now jump him in a trans universal bit with a back strap.  I find that I don't get into a wrestling match with him coz if he starts to lean I can say no and get a reaction and this makes me ride him more 'up' and less on the forehand.... Hope that waffle makes sense....and so to conclude try a beval snaffle or a trans universal (Cotswold sport do a fab version that is much cheaper than ns!) hope to see you at the ng weekend in March? X


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## TheMule (2 January 2014)

I like the waterford for thus sort of horse


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## Cortez (2 January 2014)

This is a riding/training/strengthening issue, not a bit issue. Do you have a decent instructor that can give you some exercises to help the horse stay off his forehand and listening? (transitions, transitions, transitions....)


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## avthechav (2 January 2014)

:-D


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## MadBlackLab (2 January 2014)

Cortez said:



			This is a riding/training/strengthening issue, not a bit issue. Do you have a decent instructor that can give you some exercises to help the horse stay off his forehand and listening? (transitions, transitions, transitions....)
		
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Agree fully with this. Also lots of transitions between jumps. Combination jumps and bounces will help too


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## Lisamd (2 January 2014)

Cortez said:



			This is a riding/training/strengthening issue, not a bit issue. Do you have a decent instructor that can give you some exercises to help the horse stay off his forehand and listening? (transitions, transitions, transitions....)
		
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MadBlackLab said:



			Agree fully with this. Also lots of transitions between jumps. Combination jumps and bounces will help too
		
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Thanks. I'm aware that training is the key to this problem, but am looking for something to help in the mean while and knowing this horse and the way he is put together (built slightly downhill) it will always be a weakness/issue irregardless of how many transitions we do! 

On the flat I can stop him getting so deep but jumping seems to over exaggerate the problem as we accumulate speed and strength.


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## dieseldog (2 January 2014)

I have a friend with a horse that is built very downhill and he too gets stronger and on the forehand jumping, they have sorted it on the flat more, but jumping he lands and puts his head down, but doesn't want a strong bit.  She was lent one of these http://www.horsebitbank.com/sprenger-duo-continental-3-ring-563.phtml with a chin strap on the back of it.  She also really likes him in a Cheltenham gag.


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## Cortez (2 January 2014)

Lisamd said:



			Thanks. I'm aware that training is the key to this problem, but am looking for something to help in the mean while and knowing this horse and the way he is put together (built slightly downhill) it will always be a weakness/issue irregardless of how many transitions we do! 

On the flat I can stop him getting so deep but jumping seems to over exaggerate the problem as we accumulate speed and strength.
		
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"In the meanwhile"? What's that? You mean until you get around to actually riding him properly? I repeat: a bit will not compensate for proper training. I have a horse who is 1.5 inches higher in the croup than the withers; I know all about riding downhill horses, I have been riding her for 13 years - IN A SNAFFLE. She has taken a long time, is not easy to help balance, but will go perfectly correctly IF RIDDEN PROPERLY. There is no bit which will magically "lift" a downhill horse off it's forehand; that is achieved as the result of many, many years of TRAINING.


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## MadBlackLab (2 January 2014)

Cortez said:



			"In the meanwhile"? What's that? You mean until you get around to actually riding him properly? I repeat: a bit will not compensate for proper training. I have a horse who is 1.5 inches higher in the croup than the withers; I know all about riding downhill horses, I have been riding her for 13 years - IN A SNAFFLE. She has taken a long time, is not easy to help balance, but will go perfectly correctly IF RIDDEN PROPERLY. There is no bit which will magically "lift" a downhill horse off it's forehand; that is achieved as the result of many, many years of TRAINING.
		
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fully agree. Why do people automatically go for I need a different bit to do this drives me up the wall


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## Lisamd (2 January 2014)

Cortez said:



			"In the meanwhile"? What's that? You mean until you get around to actually riding him properly? I repeat: a bit will not compensate for proper training. I have a horse who is 1.5 inches higher in the croup than the withers; I know all about riding downhill horses, I have been riding her for 13 years - IN A SNAFFLE. She has taken a long time, is not easy to help balance, but will go perfectly correctly IF RIDDEN PROPERLY. There is no bit which will magically "lift" a downhill horse off it's forehand; that is achieved as the result of many, many years of TRAINING.
		
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Sorry seem to have hit a nerve here. I assume you know me and the way I ride to be able to comment so strongly. The question I posted was re bits not schooling and training, I thought I'd made that clear in the original post? Anyhow to allay any fears that I cannot get out of trot yet I do have lessons and am not aiming to buy an off the shelf fix all, just asking for bitting advice.


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## throughtheforest (2 January 2014)

I do agree with the training and correct instructor, but if you are using the wrong bit, i.e, a pelham this can also aid the problem too. I would highly recommend a french link loose ring snaffle, coupled with the training.


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## avthechav (2 January 2014)

Cortez said:



			"In the meanwhile"? What's that? You mean until you get around to actually riding him properly? I repeat: a bit will not compensate for proper training. I have a horse who is 1.5 inches higher in the croup than the withers; I know all about riding downhill horses, I have been riding her for 13 years - IN A SNAFFLE.
		
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Wow! Nice.... ...


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## Cortez (2 January 2014)

I actually completely give up at this point. Bits are not to do with schooling and training then? Think I'll just leave you to it; best of luck.


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## avthechav (2 January 2014)

Cortez I don't think that you are wrong in theory.... And ideally you would go back and address any schooling issues before changing bit but in this case the rider does understand the issues, she has regular quality training and needs a little help with one element of her partnership with her horse.... I am not sure why you feel the need to attack the OPs riding when presumably you don't know her, her level of skill or her horse, she just wanted some bit advice!

.... Apologies if I have interpreted your comments incorrectly as I know things can come across in the wrong way over a forum.


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## Lisamd (2 January 2014)

dieseldog said:



			I have a friend with a horse that is built very downhill and he too gets stronger and on the forehand jumping, they have sorted it on the flat more, but jumping he lands and puts his head down, but doesn't want a strong bit.  She was lent one of these http://www.horsebitbank.com/sprenger-duo-continental-3-ring-563.phtml with a chin strap on the back of it.  She also really likes him in a Cheltenham gag.
		
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throughtheforest said:



			I do agree with the training and correct instructor, but if you are using the wrong bit, i.e, a pelham this can also aid the problem too. I would highly recommend a french link loose ring snaffle, coupled with the training.
		
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TheMule said:



			I like the waterford for thus sort of horse
		
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He's currently in this http://www.nsbits.com/index.php/dressage-legal/tranz-angled-ozenge1.html for all hacking, flat and jumping. He hunts in a Dutch gag on the middle ring. I have tried a Waterford for jumping but didn't feel much difference, but am aware that he is more forward to a fence now so may try this again.


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## throughtheforest (2 January 2014)

Looks awfully similar to a french link! It just goes to show how the same bit can effect different horses in differing ways. I knew one who loved the tom thumb bit rings, he worked mostly on his forehand too. They have a control element similar to a gag with the slight leverage, but are still dressage legal.


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## throughtheforest (2 January 2014)

I apologise, what I was actually talking about, was a hanging cheek snaffle!
Such as this-

http://thumbs1.ebaystatic.com/d/l225/pict/150939360744_2.jpg


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## showpony (2 January 2014)

My mare leans so  Alternate between dropping inside and outside rein. Has worked wonders.


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## Kit-kat (2 January 2014)

lots of transitions within the pace...walk, trot then canter.. count to 3 and on the 4 do a half halt ....lots of suppling to get the horse off the forehand ..easy stages not rushed


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## jessjc (3 January 2014)

I have been in a similar situation with my 6 year old (oh no do I have to admit he's 7 now?!), I was desperate to keep riding him in the simplest bit I could for as long as possible, and I do for schooling. He is 16.2hh and he feels like a big horse, built slightly downhill, but evening out as he grows, thankfully. His schooling has really improved, and he has really come off the forehand through this and a lot of help with an instructor. 

However, when it comes to jumping, I have played around with different bits, but not too many (the waterford felt like too much in his mouth, even though he couldn't grab onto it. The continental gag felt better, but really just put his head down, and didn't lift him. The Cheltenham gag worked well to start with but there wasn't the sharpness I needed for the SJ ring), and now ride him in an American Gag for jumping, which has really lifted him up. If I showed you the difference on video you would be stunned, going from jumping on his head, to actually being up in front of me and in control. I was worried about the strength of bit, but it seems to be working well for us, and could for you too? I still ride him in a snaffle for flatwork, which is what I do most with him. Rein back and lots of transitions and smaller circles and half circles have worked wonders, as well as raised trotting poles. Good luck!


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## Darremi (3 January 2014)

Cortez said:



			"In the meanwhile"? What's that? You mean until you get around to actually riding him properly? I repeat: a bit will not compensate for proper training. I have a horse who is 1.5 inches higher in the croup than the withers; I know all about riding downhill horses, I have been riding her for 13 years - IN A SNAFFLE. She has taken a long time, is not easy to help balance, but will go perfectly correctly IF RIDDEN PROPERLY. There is no bit which will magically "lift" a downhill horse off it's forehand; that is achieved as the result of many, many years of TRAINING.
		
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You have a point regarding dressage and not using a bit to fix problems. But the reality is that some horses just love their jumping, they get an adrenaline rush and it is not easy to control them. Obviously some horses have more sensitive nerve endings in their mouth than others. No amount of schooling in a snaffle is going to change that.

As long as you are an experienced rider with goods enough hands that you won't catch the horse in the mouth then I don't see what is wrong with trying a slightly stronger bit.

You could spend 10 years doing transitions and maybe you would get the same result but lets face it most people do not have the time to do that. Sometimes switching to a stronger bit for a period of time can teach the horse to respect rein signals better. There is nothing worse than somebody hauling a horse in the mouth in a snaffle. Much better to use less pressure with a stronger bit in my opinion.

I completely agree that strong bits should not be used by inexperienced or novice riders.


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## Darremi (3 January 2014)

Lisamd said:



			He's currently in this http://www.nsbits.com/index.php/dressage-legal/tranz-angled-ozenge1.html for all hacking, flat and jumping. He hunts in a Dutch gag on the middle ring. I have tried a Waterford for jumping but didn't feel much difference, but am aware that he is more forward to a fence now so may try this again.
		
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Why don't you try jumping him one ring down in the Dutch gag?


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