# Autumn Staghunting



## wurzel (28 July 2006)

Come on townies !!

Hunting starts on Tuesday.

Such an effective ban.

Who wants to come?


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## Nigel (28 July 2006)

Hi Tom,

   Cannot make it down this year, last year was a brilliant. Lex`s party was amazing.

Good Hunting

Nigel


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## Maesfen (28 July 2006)

If I had the time, I'd love to; didn't miss an Opening Meet for years although have to admit, I prefer Spring Hunting, you can see a bit more.
Hope it goes well!


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## wallace (29 July 2006)

You, apparently.


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## wurzel (29 July 2006)

I will be thinking of you.

Why not come?

Surely someone will look after your spot in the high street.


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## Karla (29 July 2006)

Try to see something of the world, Tom, before it's too late. With a bit of experience under your belt perhaps you'll be less fanatical on silly boards like this. There's far more to life than pigs and abusing animals for pleasure.


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## wurzel (29 July 2006)

Where do you suggest I see?


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## Karla (29 July 2006)

No, my lad, that's for YOU to decide - it's all part of the life's rich mystery. Good luck!


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## wurzel (29 July 2006)

Well, my boy, I can only tell you I have seen all I need to see.

From the jungles of the South Atlantic to the moors of Xunantunich.

Isn't it funny how anti's are always better travelled and better educated.

It is the arrogance that causes you to take your eye of the ball darling.

That is why I will be hunting on Tuesday and you will be......well you won't say will you?

I guess it is the impotence that hurts. That is why your only answer is abuse.

I will think of you as well.


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## Karla (29 July 2006)

You just don't get it. It's possible to rush around to lots of places but not really see anything because you're so blinkered. You appear to view the world with a great deal of anger. If you at least tried to open yourself up to new experiences and opinions perhaps you'd be less uptight.

I don't know what I'll be doing on Tuesday - depends on the weather I suppose.


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## soggy (29 July 2006)

I don't know what I'll be doing on Tuesday - depends on the weather I suppose.
		
Click to expand...

Oh, who are you trying to kid?

You will be sat in your smelly bedsit picking your toe nails, and moulding your earwax sculptures, as you always do every day of the week.


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## severnmiles (29 July 2006)

"I don't know what I'll be doing on Tuesday - depends on the weather I suppose."

If us country people went by the weather we'd never get anything done!


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## Karla (29 July 2006)

Tish and pish! So you'd harvest a field in torrential rain? Or exercise a horse during a violent electrical storm?

Of course, hunts go out in very cold conditions when the ground is rock hard even though this can hurt horse and hound alike, but that's another matter...


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## severnmiles (29 July 2006)

You what?  So why was our huntsman on foot for the whole of the beginning of last season then?  Did he need the exercise?  NO.  Or was it because there was ice about?

As for the hounds, try telling the Eskimo's not to run their husky's on ice and snow...lol @ you!


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## Karla (29 July 2006)

But I very much doubt whether you hunt with huskies. On icy hard ground hounds can cut their pads and/or break limbs.


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## severnmiles (29 July 2006)

Some huskies will hunt, hence why the Inuit tribes crossed them with wolves.

You should see some of the terrain huskies cross when racing.  Perhaps its not Tom Faggus who should get out a bit more and see the world, maybe you should take your own advice.


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## Karla (29 July 2006)

"But I very much doubt whether you hunt with huskies" - meaning I doubt very much whether your local hunt uses huskies, which are adapted to icy conditions, unlike hounds. 

I'm sure more experienced pros on this board would agree that to take hounds out in severe frost is irresponsible.


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## severnmiles (29 July 2006)

Why do you think we spend a few months hound exercising and doing road work with the hounds?  Perhaps to harden their feet.

I don't see the difference between icey condition/hard ground to the road/shaley areas/mountain e.t.c

Please elaborate.

Also what about huskies that were bred in the UK, they aren't aclimatised, yet they still go racing in Scottish/Welsh woods on hard frosty ground and snow...


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## Clodagh (29 July 2006)

We don't hunt when the ground is frozen solid, but we do in snow. Horses stay at home and quads come into play.


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## severnmiles (29 July 2006)

Do you not hunt in the frost on foot?

Not even delayed?


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## Karla (29 July 2006)

Pros have told me there are two problems with severe frost. One - it's dangerous for horses and riders. Two, shards of ice can injure the hounds, perhaps ending their career (and we know what that means).

You're getting confused between acclimatisation and evolution. Huskies have evolved to cope with icy conditions, irrespective of where they are born. My main concern about racing them in the UK would be that they'd get too hot.


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## severnmiles (29 July 2006)

Too hot?  You obviously know the season well then.

Next time you see a husky, go and have a look at its paws and compare it to that of a hound thats done its road work.

As I have already said we don't use horses in the frost so I'll disregard your first comment.  I've yet to see the second.

Frosts don't last long here anway, we're warmer being near the coast.  But I can't remember the SHH, LH,CVH or RH ever abandoning hunting due to ice, it was either delayed or we went on foot.


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## Karla (29 July 2006)

If it's mild I think it's dangerous to race huskies - I don't see how this is controversial. It's just common sense.

The debate about hunting on icy ground was conducted on Liam's hunting forum. My comment about the threat of ice shards to hounds was taken directly from Liam's post.

http://www.hunting-directory.co.uk/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?num=1135612274/15

As you can see, your position is worrying similar to Carreg's. The more experienced (and responsible) hunters there though disagree with you both.


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## Clodagh (29 July 2006)

We are so built up around here that the huntsman has to able to keep with the hounds. We have been once, that I can think of, in severe frost and it was hair raising! We only went then as we have a huge group of visitors out.

Even the bassetts cancel in frost, our soil is clay with lots of flints, so perhaps thats why it is worse than yours?


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## severnmiles (29 July 2006)

Because Carreg has no experience with hunting, don't make me laugh!!

Who are you to say those on Liams who'm I disagree with are more experienced?  Just because you agree with what they say does not make them any more or less experienced than myself.  Stop being so narrowminded.

I suppose our local huntmen no nothing aswell, despite one hunting one pack of hounds for over 15 seasons.

Perhaps our Welsh hounds are somewhat tougher than those that Liams readers hunt with, saying that though half our pack are English lines.

Despite what I've read there I have seen hounds hunt in frost, successfully, I've not seen any reaction from them either.  The only downside is the huntsman is f****d at the end of the day.  Perhaps take a look at the Carms pics of Lee P hunting hounds on foot in the frost...

As for the huskies, I've not known Pembrey be warm in Feb!


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## severnmiles (29 July 2006)

Hmm I didn't think of that, our hounds can run on in places for miles and not see a road.  It would be quite irresponsible to be on foot in those circumstances, I guess your hunt wouldn't ever hunt without a whip either, whereas ours can and have done.


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## combat_claire (29 July 2006)

Blimey your huntsman is a short timer. Our huntsman is just about to start his 27th season with the Fitzwilliam...
Many considerations have to be taken into account when judging whether to go out, SM you seem to be in a fortunate position of being in quite an unspoilt hunt country. This doesn't always follow for the rest of us. Therefore if visibility is bad we will cancel - it isn't safe to approach hazards when you can barely see your horse's ears, nor is it safe when sound is so badly distorted. 
What would be the point of us heading out in the frost if the only result is going to be lame horses and sore hounds? It isn't anything to do with toughness of the hounds, but fairness and keeping their welfare at the heart of things. Not to mention the fact that if frost is coming out of the ground then scenting conditions pre-ban would have been useless! 
The same with snow, there would have been snow and with the snow balling up in the neds feets there would be danger for both follower and horse. High winds have caused a meet to be altered once, gales affected us that it was deemed unsafe to hunt on horseback and we went on foot instead.


Incidentally there are whisperings that we might go out on feet only at the start of this season, because the ground is like rock and will take weeks of rain to soften. 

As a final point remember that many of Liam's forum users will be beaglers and basset harehounds followers which is bound to affect the country they use and therefore the effect the conditions have on them.


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## severnmiles (29 July 2006)

Our huntsman is in his first season, and I was wrong by saying 15, its 10 seasons for the Tivyside. 

I think you were wrong with 27 aswell.

Claire although I appreciate what you have written out it doesn't go to the point of the argument.

Lame horses - I've already said three times we would be on foot.  But I realise that in your country its probably imperative that hunt staff are mounted.

"It isn't anything to do with toughness of the hounds, but fairness and keeping their welfare at the heart of things."

So you would say that because huntsmen in our area still hunt in frosty conditions they don't have their hounds welfare at heart?  It would be a shame if those were your thoughts.  If roadwork is done correctly hounds feet should be tough soled, what is the difference from ice to treading on thick brambles or black thorn in a covert?

I appreciate the sights/sounds argument, especially in an area which is built up.  Hunting in its current form also has to be wary of bad press.


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## Karla (29 July 2006)

"So you would say that because huntsmen in our area still hunt in frosty conditions they don't have their hounds welfare at heart?"

Correct! We got there in the end.


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## Karla (29 July 2006)

Carreg's probably a world expert in grovelling around with a spade in the mud - but I think even he would concede that Liam &amp; co have far more experience in foxhunting.


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## combat_claire (29 July 2006)

Baily's agrees with me that 1984-2006 makes it his 27th season as huntsman...

Our hounds like every pack does extensive roadwork and and off-road work over the summer to ensure that their feet are as tough as they can be. However in a severe frost, I'm not talking the piddling little ones that we tend to get down here - but the severe freeze that we have had last season when the ground was like iron there was no point getting them out on that because the impact on their feet, unlike treading on a bramble thicket for part of the day would have been sustained for most of the hunting morning. Hounds will be sore enough after a regular day in the field without exacerbating it further. 

At least you acknowledge that there are few meets down here where we can reasonably expect our hunt staff to keep control on foot.


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## severnmiles (29 July 2006)

Oh dear, Oh dear, Oh dear!

Come and say that to them, I doubt you've even been within 10 miles of kennels so how would you know?

Presumtion is a dangerous thing.


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## severnmiles (29 July 2006)

Excuse my mathematics but it makes it 22 seasons.


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## Karla (29 July 2006)

duh! (not you Severn)


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## severnmiles (29 July 2006)

I guess thats each to their own.  Would you agree that the road is extremely hard?  Some p2p trainers would frown upon trotting after road work, others would say if the foundations of road work at walk are laid correctly and the home work is done trotting on the roads is an essential part to fittening a pointer.

Its difference of opinions.  I trust our ex huntsman's judgement, we'll see what our current HM makes of the frost.


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## Karla (29 July 2006)

My understanding is that a severe frost not only makes the ground hard but potentially very sharp in places - thus Liam's reference to "shards" of ice which can end a hound's career. You'd be quite happy to risk this. I'm relieved that there are more responsible hunters around.


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## severnmiles (29 July 2006)

Shards of ice don't compare with brambles, black thorn, slate, barbed wire e.t.c then?

Everytime I run my pointer I will be risking his and perhaps his jockeys life, but does that make me care any less for him?  Of course not, I'd be truly gutted if anything happened but I am aware of the risks.


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## Karla (29 July 2006)

To be honest, my tasty Welsh cake, I no longer care. I'm completely bored of the subject. They're "your" hounds, so kill them off if you want to.

I've FINALLY FINALLY finished the work I've been doing on the pc ALL DAY. I'm outa here!


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## wurzel (29 July 2006)

"You just don't get it. "

Probably not.

"It's possible to rush around to lots of places but not really see anything because you're so blinkered."

Fascinating!

What is your point?
What has this got to do with hunting?
You don't know what I know and I don't know what you know.
Would the fact that I am married to a "person other than british" or have lived with the Maya or fished with the villagers of the Mussandam have anything to do with hunting?

We can test each other about cultures of the world if you like.

But to what end?

You may not admit it but it is you who appears uptight.

I farm and I hunt. I am happy.

You want to stop that and you are failing.

I presume that grates.


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## wurzel (29 July 2006)

"I no longer care. "

I know. You never really did.


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## combat_claire (29 July 2006)

Whoops can't add up *blushes* does mathematical dyslexia exist? If so I think I might have it..sorry.


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## combat_claire (29 July 2006)

Show off!!!!..I haven't finished mine but I still went out anyway....kennels for gossip and then pub...


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## soggy (29 July 2006)

Whoops can't add up *blushes* does mathematical dyslexia exist? If so I think I might have it..sorry.
		
Click to expand...

It certainly does and it goes by the name of  Dyscalculia. It is estimated to affect 1 in 20 children and adults to some  degree.


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## severnmiles (29 July 2006)

Sogs are you being serious?  I never can tell..could be a hint of sarcasm there...


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## soggy (30 July 2006)

Severn

Deadly serious! And no sarcasm what so ever.

Having battled with Dyslexia all my life, I have some sympathy with those affected.

Like dyslexia you can be affected to varying degrees, fortunately now teachers are aware of the conditions and are trained in how to spot those affected at an early age, and then provide alternative teaching methods that meet their specific needs.


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## Karla (30 July 2006)

Weirdly, when I added it up it came to 26! There can only be one explanation for this, Wrighty: we've got the same type of brain. Worried?


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## Karla (30 July 2006)

I formally withdraw all my nasty comments about you. I now realise you're a relaxed, light-hearted fellow with a great sense of humour and achingly receptive to new ideas and opinions. Others abide our question. Thou art free!


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## severnmiles (30 July 2006)

Are you serious?

2006 - 1984 is hardly rocket science.


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## Karla (30 July 2006)

The 2 and 6 in "2006" must have bamboozled me.


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## severnmiles (30 July 2006)

Lol!

I'm beginning to warm to you Karla  :shocked:  :shocked:  :shocked:

Soggy will shoot me for saying that!


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## Doreys_Mum (30 July 2006)

I order you to love and embrace Karla... he's the dogs balls


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## combat_claire (30 July 2006)

Not at all...it obviously shows that we are too busy dealing with the more serious aspects of the hunting debate to worry about a few extra seasons on the career of an eminent huntsman. 

More worryingly still a certain hunt master got the same number..we're all in this together!

I wonder if I can bluff my way out of this and claim I added on his years as first whip to the Fitzwilliam....*whistles innocently*


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## severnmiles (30 July 2006)

No you cannot CC, go and sit in the corner!  

hehe  :smirk:  :grin:


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## combat_claire (30 July 2006)

*sits in corner with Dunce hat on*


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## Fairynuff (30 July 2006)

TF, seeing as I was born and bred in a country where stag hunting is unknown, would you pleas enlighten me as to what happens, how long and the end of the stag or hind. Not being funny in any way, I promise. M.


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## wurzel (30 July 2006)

Sure, as you have asked politely.

A stag is located by members of the Stag hounds. The Stag selected is generally an older animal or one in poorer condition than the others. The people who do this are called Harbourers.

The most experienced hounds are sent in to isolate and flush out the chosen Stag. These are called Tufters.

Then the hunt begins. How long? Not surprisingly it varies.

I would say an average of 12 miles and 3 hours.

When the Stag is exhausted it turns to face the hounds that have been pursuing it. It stands at bay.

The huntsman then shoots it in the head at very close range.

The deer is then cleaned and butchered.


Basic outline Mairi, if you need clarification I will be glad to help.

Please remember that due to the hunting act 2004 the deer can now only be hunted by two hounds at a time and must be shot as soon as it is possible to get a clean shot.

No Minimi's or Gimpys allowed !!


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## AlanE (30 July 2006)

Karla, there's far more to life than letting your fanaticism show through by referring to hunting as 'abusing animals for pleasure'. Do you REALLY believe that is the case, or are you unable to suppress your  innate prejudice?


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## Karla (30 July 2006)

Tom himself has said stag hunting is cruel, yet he loves it. I think that's a pretty good definition of "abusing animals for pleasure".


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## wurzel (31 July 2006)

"Tom himself has said stag hunting is cruel, yet he loves it."

Did I say that? Blimey !!!

It is a cruel world.

Flystrike has been very bad this summer.


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## Karla (31 July 2006)

Really? 

It's a great shame I'm not using my normal pc because I've got some photos there of some really funny-looking Blacknose sheep.


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## combat_claire (31 July 2006)

Yup flystrike has been bad down our way too. Not nice at all, apparently the wet months washed much of the pour-on treatment away leaving them vulnerable. 

Apparently it was worse this year even than last, which was pretty horrendous. Not a pleasant job shearing away the mucky wool on their backsides to make the maggots leave and then spraying them. Then you get back in the landy and find the stray maggots crawling on you and stuck to your legs/jeans....ick!


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## Fairynuff (31 July 2006)

Thankyou TF, you have enlightened me. Been busy dagging then? Nasty , smelly and backbreaking job. M.


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## wurzel (31 July 2006)

You are most welcome.

Dagging and dipping has been the order of the day.

it really is a cruel world !!


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## severnmiles (31 July 2006)

Karma comes back TF...the fox's revenge!


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## wurzel (31 July 2006)

You could be right !!

I will hope the deer get away tomorrow. That way the lamb prices will go up !!!


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## wurzel (31 July 2006)

And another season begins !!!!

Toodle pip townies !!!!


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## Ereiam_jh (31 July 2006)

Have a damn good time tomorrow I wish I was there.


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## severnmiles (31 July 2006)

Me too!  I'm definately taking a trip (even if its just the one day) down this season..any tips on some good meets PM me TF!  Can't make boxing day at the WH :-( I liked that meet.


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## Karla (31 July 2006)

Hussy!


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## Ereiam_jh (31 July 2006)

You should come down Karla, it's a damn good laugh.


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## Karla (31 July 2006)

I get my laughs in more prosaic ways, Giles i.e. without abusing animals.


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## Ereiam_jh (31 July 2006)

I don't abuse animals I hunt them.


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## severnmiles (31 July 2006)

Pot, kettle, black 

You've not lived until you've hunted on exmoor, be it staghounds/foxhounds or harriers...


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## Ereiam_jh (31 July 2006)

Or Beagles!


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## wurzel (1 August 2006)

As I forecast, it was a great day out.

And just the right amount of rain !!


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## CARREG (4 August 2006)

Karla
In 27 seasons of hunting with hounds, none of the packs Ive been with have ever called a days hunting off because its too cold, what happens in the rest of the country is of no interest to me.........Carreg


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