# I think Swales Bits should be banned from the show ring.



## antagonist (30 June 2010)

*Why is this inhumane bit allowed in the show ring?

It has no place in a society that perports to love animals.

Why have the powers that be not taken action?

Are we allowing people's desire to win at all cost compromise the welfare of horses?*

Two quotes from the Horse and hound:

1)EARLIER this year, a BSPS judge wrote to H&H, concerned about the use of the Swales 3-in-1 bit in showing and describing it as "an old cavalry jaw-crunching bit". 




2)The Swales bit has become extremely popular in cob and hunter classes in recent years, but a leading show producer has warned against its overuse. 

Jayne Webber, winner of the 2009 supreme horse at Horse of the Year Show, says: "The Swales us a very sharp 'elevator' bit, which helps to get the horse to 'sit-up'. This is especially useful for cobs, which tend to want to go on their forehand. 


"They seem to be in fashion, but I only use it as a training bit and, once I've got the horse off its forehand, I change into another bit. 


"You have to have forgiving hands to use it properly; you have to ride off the leg. In the wrong hands, it can make horses back off the bridle." 


Jayne's words of warning are supported by judge and exhibitor Lucy Killingbeck, who adds: "I hate to see them so widely use, since a lot of riders just don't have the hands for it. As a judge, it can be horrible to ride a horse in a Swales which hasn't been used properly."


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## flyingfeet (30 June 2010)

Oh please ! 

Yes its a strong bit, but has no poll action whatsoever

Yes it does push the cheek, bit no where near as effective as a tight crank noseband to really push the cheek to the teeth

If you ban the swales, you should make everyone use snaffles.


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## antagonist (30 June 2010)

Why would anyone who is showing horse, which are ment to schooled to be mannerly want to use any bit that is in any way harsh?

I believe if my memory serves me right that Jennie Loriston Clarke was once quoted in the horse and hound say if you can't do some thing in a snaffle you shouldn't be doing it.


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## Cazza525 (30 June 2010)

I have an awful feeling I'm going to see you at the next county show,hyperventilating,screeching obscenities whilst chained to the show hunter ring railings with a banner saying....'BAN TOUGH BITS'!!

Hilarious


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## antagonist (30 June 2010)

Cazza525 said:



			I have an awful feeling I'm going to see you at the next county show,hyperventilating,screeching obscenities whilst chained to the show hunter ring railings with a banner saying....'BAN TOUGH BITS'!!

Hilarious
		
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Only if the chain is long enopugh so I can reach the beer tent!


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## pastie2 (30 June 2010)

In my days of showing we used a very strange bit of kit called the Double Bridle. What was wrong with that. Good hands were needed as in the use of all bits, even the common snaffle. We shall soon get to the point where a single strand of barbed wire will do the trick!


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## flyingfeet (30 June 2010)

antagonist said:



			Why would anyone who is showing horse, which are ment to schooled to be mannerly want to use any bit that is in any way harsh?
		
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Because its better to use a harsh bit lightly than haul on a snaffle?

If snaffles were the be all and end all you'd see them at high level dressage now they are allowed, but you don't !


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## antagonist (30 June 2010)

CotswoldSJ said:



			Because its better to use a harsh bit lightly than haul on a snaffle?
		
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Or the third option would be have some lessons on learn how to ride.


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## pastie2 (30 June 2010)

antagonist said:



			Or the third option would be have some lessons on learn how to ride.
		
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You beat me to it!!!


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## xloopylozzax (30 June 2010)

thats the point of a bridle with a curb rein though- refinement. 
especially needed for top level dressage, and for decent showing to a point. 

the reason pelhams were developed (not the swales really but stands for the rest) is for the look of a double, but without the bulk in the mouth and extra straps.
i dont like the swales, as a training bit for short periods its all well and good, but that should be all. how long before we see liverpool *driving* bits or army reversible common place on the ridden horse.

not a fan im afraid.


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## LEC (30 June 2010)

Any bit can be a razor in a monkeys hands.


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## pastie2 (30 June 2010)

LEC said:



			Any bit can be a razor in a monkeys hands.
		
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I know, but the blunter the knife, the less of a wound.


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## rosie fronfelen (30 June 2010)

pastie2 said:



			In my days of showing we used a very strange bit of kit called the Double Bridle. What was wrong with that. Good hands were needed as in the use of all bits, even the common snaffle. We shall soon get to the point where a single strand of barbed wire will do the trick!
		
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pastie, that is so right,the double was common on the hunting field too- all this ironmongery in horses mouths these days take away the need for good, light hands- both of ours go in snaffles,they are big horses with beautiful light mouths.that is standards for you, or the lowering of--


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## antagonist (30 June 2010)

Can the people who use them put thier heads above the parapet and tell us why they use them.

You must be out there!!


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## pastie2 (30 June 2010)

antagonist said:



			Can the people who use them put thier heads above the parapet and tell us why they use them.

You must be out there!!

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It would be interesting to hear their side!


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## Silverspring (30 June 2010)

I think they should ban all bits, putting a piece of metal in a horses mouth is just barbaric!

If you can't ride like a native american then you shouldn't be riding at all IMO.

I hack my horse with no saddle or bridle, I just use the power of my mind to direct her which way to go.  But since she is a free spirit she always chooses her own path and we often don't get out of the yard.  Not that it bothers me, the privilege of being near such divine creatures is enough.

Oh and with a name like antagonist I'm amazed anyone is taking you seriously, I know I'm n ot


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## pastie2 (30 June 2010)

Silverspring said:



			I think they should ban all bits, putting a piece of metal in a horses mouth is just barbaric!

If you can't ride like a native american then you shouldn't be riding at all IMO.

I hack my horse with no saddle or bridle, I just use the power of my mind to direct her which way to go.  But since she is a free spirit she always chooses her own path and we often don't get out of the yard.  Not that it bothers me, the privilege of being near such divine creatures is enough.

Oh and with a name like antagonist I'm amazed anyone is taking you seriously, I know I'm n ot 

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You have passed over the bounds of possability. There is a differance from scratching your face and tearing great chunks  off it!!


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## antagonist (30 June 2010)

No risk that you will run me over when I am chained to the railings at the county show then!


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## Sarah Sum1 (30 June 2010)

I personally have not heard of this bit. Good old snaffle for me. Although i did jump an old pony in a pelham  and another in a kimblewick, but i was only a nipper with non horsey parents 
 But If this bit is being used solely for the purpose of working the horse correctly, then surely more lessons are required, not a harsh bit  

Disclaimer: I know nothing, just wanted to stick my oar in


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## Onyxia (30 June 2010)

rosiefronfelen said:



			pastie, that is so right,the double was common on the hunting field too- all this ironmongery in horses mouths these days take away the need for good, light hands- both of ours go in snaffles,they are big horses with beautiful light mouths.that is standards for you, or the lowering of--
		
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Not always.
Although I am also a big fan of the good old snaffle,some horses just dont get on with them.For those,the wide range of bits avalable is a GOOD thing.

I remember one girl with a lovely arab who would be a complete a**e in a snaffle,pop a pelham  in and she went like a dream-rider had wonderfull hands and only gave into the harsher bit because she HAD to get heavy in a snaffle if her mare took off out hacking to get some controll.
Just one of many examples where the stronger bit was the better option,any bit will be bad in poor hands and IMO demanding every horse go in a snaffle is as much of a fashion fad as anything else.
The bit(or indeed,any piece of kit you use) should be selected because it is the most comftable and apropriate for your horse.

Edit because I forgot snaflle in the middle


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## pastie2 (30 June 2010)

sarahsum1 said:



			I personally have not heard of this bit. Good old snaffle for me. Although i did jump an old pony in a pelham  and another in a kimblewick, but i was only a nipper with non horsey parents 
 But If this bit is being used solely for the purpose of working the horse correctly, then surely more lessons are required, not a harsh bit  

Disclaimer: I know nothing, just wanted to stick my oar in 

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But you do!!! You have just said it all!


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## Sarah Sum1 (30 June 2010)

pastie2 said:



			But you do!!! You have just said it all!
		
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 Yes but this is HHO, there is always without doubt, someone to point out that you know nothing, so thought i'd get in there first. I think i'll make a dislcaimer mandatory on my posts , then I can get away with saying anything! MWAHAHAHAHAHA  

Disclaimer, think sun has gone to my head today  I'm in a silly mood


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## pastie2 (30 June 2010)

sarahsum1 said:



 Yes but this is HHO, there is always without doubt, someone to point out that you know nothing, so thought i'd get in there first. I think i'll make a dislcaimer mandatory on my posts , then I can get away with saying anything! MWAHAHAHAHAHA  

Disclaimer, think sun has gone to my head today  I'm in a silly mood 

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Have you had time to enjoy it then? I am far too worried about bits!


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## antagonist (30 June 2010)

anima said:



			Not always.
Although I am also a big fan of the good old snaffle,some horses just dont get on with them.For those,the wide range of bits avalable is a GOOD thing.

I remember one girl with a lovely arab who would be a complete a**e in a snaffle,pop a pelham  in and she went like a dream-rider had wonderfull hands and only gave into the harsher bit because she HAD to get heavy if her mare took off out hacking to get some controll.
Just one of many examples where the stronger bit was the better option,any bit will be bad in poor hands and IMO demanding every horse go in a snaffle is as much of a fashion fad as anything else.
The bit(or indeed,any piece of kit you use) should be selected because it is the most comftable and apropriate for your horse.
		
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I agree an range of bits is a good thing, and selecting a bit correctly for the horse and rider is of utmost important. And hopefully good advice is offered by professionals and more experianced riders.

There is several degrees of seperation (or pain infliction) between upgrading from a snaffle to pelham, to using a swales (especially with extended shanks.)
to control horses in the show ring. Show horses should be schooled to be mannerly.

Still no supporter of the swales but lots of picture of them being used in the equine press!! Come on justify yourselves.


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## rosie fronfelen (30 June 2010)

Silverspring said:



			I think they should ban all bits, putting a piece of metal in a horses mouth is just barbaric!

If you can't ride like a native american then you shouldn't be riding at all IMO.

I hack my horse with no saddle or bridle, I just use the power of my mind to direct her which way to go.  But since she is a free spirit she always chooses her own path and we often don't get out of the yard.  Not that it bothers me, the privilege of being near such divine creatures is enough.

Oh and with a name like antagonist I'm amazed anyone is taking you seriously, I know I'm n ot 

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jesus christ, are you for real, or are you part of some cult----


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## Sarah Sum1 (30 June 2010)

pastie2 said:



			Have you had time to enjoy it then? I am far too worried about bits!
		
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I always enjoy myself, even when i'm worrying


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## Sarah Sum1 (30 June 2010)

rosiefronfelen said:



			jesus christ, are you for real, or are you part of some cult----
		
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I think she must be joking. OR a member of the 'riding horses with mind power, even though they don't read minds and won't leave the yard because  the mind messages are not getting through' CULT Suprised you haven't heard of it


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## Persephone (30 June 2010)

When I bought my mare she had been sawed into an oitline for 3 months and her reaction to me asking her to flex was to open her mouth, head up and tilted to the left. In this position I think she felt in charge.

My Instructor put her in a Swales pelham for I would say 10 minutes which was long enough for her to realise that flexing was actually fine and I wasn't going to force her head down with sawing and a grip of steel.

She is now beautifully soft and trusting in a KK Dynamic loose ring. We are both happy.

I think those ten minutes in a Swales actually saved us both a lot of discomfort and stress tbh.

So under expert instruction and guidance along with good hands it was very helpful for us.


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## Ranyhyn (30 June 2010)

LMAO if you can't ride like a native american!!


What with my baps out and paint all over my face?


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## Onyxia (30 June 2010)

antagonist said:



			I agree an range of bits is a good thing, and selecting a bit correctly for the horse and rider is of utmost important. And hopefully good advice is offered by professionals and more experianced riders.

There is several degrees of seperation (or pain infliction) between upgrading from a snaffle to pelham, to using a swales (especially with extended shanks.)
to control horses in the show ring. Show horses should be schooled to be mannerly.
		
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Obviously,it was just an example of a stronger bit being the kinder option for a horse.
But you only have to look backa  recent threads to see that most people do recognise the pelham as a potentialy "nasty" bit which it can be,just like any other.
Granted,the potential for pain and or damage is greator with stronger bits,but i have also seen many lovely otherwise mannerly RS horses with god awfull mouths that have only ever seen a snaffle 

Regardless of the bit used,good riding is key.Think we can all agree on that 


antagonist said:



			Still no supporter of the swales but lots of picture of them being used in the equine press!! Come on justify yourselves.
		
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Sure they do have their reasons,but doubt anyone who does use one would be willing to come forward in a thread that clearly has anyone using one painted as the devil


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## antagonist (30 June 2010)

sarahsum1 said:



			I think she must be joking. OR a member of the 'riding horses with mind power, even though they don't read minds and won't leave the yard because  the mind messages are not getting through' CULT Suprised you haven't heard of it 

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I have tried riding by mind power but being schizophrenic I get interupted to much!!

Apologies now to all the schizophrenics on this thread I am only joking.


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## pastie2 (30 June 2010)

Kitsune said:



			LMAO if you can't ride like a native american!!


What with my baps out and paint all over my face? 

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So, no change there then Fats!!!!


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## Onyxia (30 June 2010)

Kitsune said:



			LMAO if you can't ride like a native american!!


What with my baps out and paint all over my face? 

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If I had my baps out in trot it would be bruises on my face I would be worried about-thank god for shock absorbers


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## Ranyhyn (30 June 2010)

Now I'd be lucky, my baps couldn't bruise a fly, but I would however, scare the horse and or any passers by 

Shurrup Pistie


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## antagonist (30 June 2010)

My challange is for any of the 368 people who are watching this thread who uses a swales bit to justify it.



anima said:



			Sure they do have their reasons,but doubt anyone who does use one would be willing to come forward in a thread that clearly has anyone using one painted as the devil 

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Are they are man (or women) enough to put their point of view. I am challanging the practice not the person.

The worse that can happen is that they get heckled.


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## antagonist (30 June 2010)

Persephone said:



			When I bought my mare she had been sawed into an oitline for 3 months and her reaction to me asking her to flex was to open her mouth, head up and tilted to the left. In this position I think she felt in charge.

My Instructor put her in a Swales pelham for I would say 10 minutes which was long enough for her to realise that flexing was actually fine and I wasn't going to force her head down with sawing and a grip of steel.

She is now beautifully soft and trusting in a KK Dynamic loose ring. We are both happy.

I think those ten minutes in a Swales actually saved us both a lot of discomfort and stress tbh.

So under expert instruction and guidance along with good hands it was very helpful for us.
		
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Would you feel it correct to continue using the swales bit, get one made with extended shafts and then show in it for all of your horse's showing career?

I guess not but many do.


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## Persephone (30 June 2010)

antagonist said:



			Would you feel it correct to continue using the swales bit, get one made with extended shafts and then show in it for all of your horse's showing career?

I guess not but many do.
		
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Not with my horse, no.

Purely academic though as I don't show!


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## Silverspring (30 June 2010)

Haha! No I wasn't being serious, I ride my horse in a myler combination bit, the evilest bit in all the world mwhahahaha! Oh and I do use a saddle (Arab with a razer wither is just incomfortable otherwise) and I do try mind power but find a kick in the ribs gets us further


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## Silverspring (30 June 2010)

On another note, were lady native american's allowed to ride?


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## Sarah Sum1 (30 June 2010)

Silverspring said:



			Haha! No I wasn't being serious, I ride my horse in a myler combination bit, the evilest bit in all the world mwhahahaha! Oh and I do use a saddle (Arab with a razer wither is just incomfortable otherwise) and I do try mind power but find a kick in the ribs gets us further 

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Lol! Aww I thought you were a member of the fore mentioned cult!


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## Onyxia (30 June 2010)

Kitsune said:



			Now I'd be lucky, my baps couldn't bruise a fly, but I would however, scare the horse and or any passers by 

Shurrup Pistie 

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Want to swap?


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## Mrs B (30 June 2010)

antagonist said:



			My challange is for any of the 368 people who are watching this thread who uses a swales bit to justify it.



Are they are man (or women) enough to put their point of view. I am challanging the practice not the person.

The worse that can happen is that they get heckled.
		
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 Boy! You did choose an appropriate forum name! We're you born aggressive or have you just been practising hard?


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## antagonist (30 June 2010)

Silverspring said:



			Haha! No I wasn't being serious, I ride my horse in a myler combination bit, the evilest bit in all the world mwhahahaha! Oh and I do use a saddle (Arab with a razer wither is just incomfortable otherwise) and I do try mind power but find a kick in the ribs gets us further 

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I do sell a range of electric shock halters, that I have adapted from the ever popular dog collars, perhaps you might want to buy one.

I find using them appeals to my aggressive side! 

(PS I don't know if I was born aggressive as I butchered my mother on my first birthdays so never got a chance to ask her)


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## Holly Hocks (30 June 2010)

Do you not think that people are using more severe bits in their urgency to "produce" show horses to a high standard, instead of giving them more time?  The majority of show horses have been broken with the intention of being show horses, so surely it should have been done properly in the first place using only a mild bit.  Everyone seems to want results yesterday, with no effort, instead of taking things a bit more slowly and quietly....personally I don't like showing.....someone else's opinion of the perfect horse isn't my idea of horse ownership....


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## Cazza525 (30 June 2010)

antagonist said:



			I do sell a range of electric shock halters, that I have adapted from the ever popular dog collars, perhaps you might want to buy one.

I find using them appeals to my aggressive side! 

(PS I don't know if I was born aggressive as I butchered my mother on my first birthdays so never got a chance to ask her)
		
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WIERD!!!


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## Katie (30 June 2010)

I can imagine this is a joke post and instead of sitting in a chair deadly serious they're laughing their head off!!

Here's a strong bit: http://www.pointernet.pds.hu/lovaglas/lovaskep/Mikmar Combination Bit.jpg

I was reading a book (a 'story' book) and the main character thought a four ring snaffle was 'serious and would hurt the horse a lot'  not compared to the bit above.

It's better to use a strong bit gently than hauling on a snaffle, even if the rider is amazing you still get horses that need a stronger bit than a snaffle..


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## pastie2 (30 June 2010)

Cazza525 said:



			WIERD!!!
		
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No I dont think that she is, she is reacting to you all!


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## Sarah Sum1 (30 June 2010)

jumpinghorse said:



			I can imagine this is a joke post and instead of sitting in a chair deadly serious they're laughing their head off!!

Here's a strong bit: http://www.pointernet.pds.hu/lovaglas/lovaskep/Mikmar Combination Bit.jpg

I was reading a book (a 'story' book) and the main character thought a four ring snaffle was 'serious and would hurt the horse a lot' 

It's better to use a strong bit gently than hauling on a snaffle, even if the rider is amazing you still get horses that need a stronger bit than a snaffle..
		
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Yeah I used to ride our 2 year old in one of those


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## Mrs B (30 June 2010)

Seriously, Antagonist, might I suggest that if banning these bits DOES matter to you, then you would get a more favourable response by putting forward a reasoned argument and keeping the aggressive side zipped.

All that will happen here is that you will raise people's hackles to voice a counter argument simply to push your buttons in return. And as you are obviously NOT thick, you must therefore be aware that the way you post will not achieve what you set out to do ie ban these bits.

So I don't really see the point. Unless winding people up IS the point, of course.... perish the thought


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## Katie (30 June 2010)

Lol well i suppose if the horse really needs it it's ok


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## Cazza525 (30 June 2010)

I agree with several ppl on here in saying that in the correct hands it's fine. Noone likes to see someone sawing at the mouth,even in a snaffle its dreadful.

I ride in a double bridle in the ring and occasionally at home. Never used a swale.


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## antagonist (30 June 2010)

Rebelzmum said:



			Do you not think that people are using more severe bits in their urgency to "produce" show horses to a high standard, instead of giving them more time?  The majority of show horses have been broken with the intention of being show horses, so surely it should have been done properly in the first place using only a mild bit.  Everyone seems to want results yesterday, with no effort, instead of taking things a bit more slowly and quietly....personally I don't like showing.....someone else's opinion of the perfect horse isn't my idea of horse ownership....
		
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Going back to being serious, is the show horse community running the risk of becoming a victim of public opinion. (Think panorama and crufts). 

Surely they should strive to put thier own house in order by looking at responsible use of bits or whatever other fad comes along. The risk is a public opinion back lash that will rub of on the rest of the equine community.

If the show horse community wont put thier house in order then sure the wider community should put pressure on them.


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## Sarah Sum1 (30 June 2010)

jumpinghorse said:



			Lol well i suppose if the horse really needs it it's ok 

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Oh yes indeey, at 2 he was in one of those bits  flash noseband with an added grackle over the top for good measure, standing martingale, draw reins, I wore spurs and used to thrash him with a schooling whip. All good experience for the youngsters


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## pastie2 (30 June 2010)

fumanchu said:



			Oh Good Lord......**rollseyes**
		
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Why???


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## berry (30 June 2010)

jumpinghorse said:



			I can imagine this is a joke post and instead of sitting in a chair deadly serious they're laughing their head off!!

Here's a strong bit: http://www.pointernet.pds.hu/lovaglas/lovaskep/Mikmar Combination Bit.jpg

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I have got one of those for my mare. They are not as bad as they look. In fact they are increddibley (sp) light. She goes lovely in it. The mouth piece really suits her. I only use it for xc though!!!


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## teagreen (30 June 2010)

Antagonist, have you some kind of problem with showing? You sound like you are out to get the showing community. Perhaps you'd prefer to join Horsegossip, as there are a lot more showing people on there who I am sure will clearly answer your queries re. swales.


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## antagonist (30 June 2010)

Hello Femanchu and watchers

Would any of you like to take the oppertunity to put a point of view on weather the use of a swales bit with or without extended shafts is an acceptable way to show a horse in a show ring when you are demonstarting its mannerlyness.

We have heard i about its use in training but no one has debated its use in the show ring.

This is not an attack on any person but trying to open a debate on this practice, and I will apologies if anyone feel otherwise.


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## Enfys (30 June 2010)

Kitsune said:



			LMAO if you can't ride like a native american!!


What with my baps out.......? 

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Ooooch


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## BobbyMondeo (30 June 2010)

To be honest i dont think bitting has any effect on mannerlyness, if a horse wants to be naughty and take of round the ring with you it will regardless of what bit you have in its mouth. 
I get that this bit is obviously stronger than a snaffle but wouldnt you rather just be able to give your a little check on the rein that will probably go un-noticed when you feel him/her wanting be naughty rather than pulling and hauling around on a snaffle? I know which i would prefer.

I dont think people who are really inexperienced would use this bit anyway, i would consider myself to be quite knowledgeable about bitting and ive never seen one. However if it is becoming a trend it will probably die out and another trend will be along soon. I dont think it is anything to worry about to much, after all if a horse really really didnt like what was going on its mouth its not going to put up with it.

I do agree that showing should have stricter rules on bitting though and what bits are allowed on the childs ponies especially. 

I hope this come across the right way


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## IdoShowing (30 June 2010)

Well i'm not afraid to say that i rod emy old pony in a swales - that what she came with, thats what she went best in & was happiest in, so thats what i kept her in!!! I only used it in the ring, & at home she was ridden in a snaffle etc, but she pullded & threw her head in a simple snaffle - she just didn't like it - yet in her swales - she was happy.  I've got light hands & never yanked on her mouth or anything, so much prefered her benig happy in a swales, than uphappy in a snaffle.
When you get people who aren't sure what they're doing trying bits that they don't know the purpose of, or understanding what their horse needs, then any bit can be inappropriate - but if your horse goes well in a  bit, then use it!!!


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## georgiegirl (30 June 2010)

Well if you think these bits are for people who cant ride a horse properly then they are perfectly suited to showing no? *joke*

seriously.....get over it. A snaffle can be a terrible thing for a horse/rider who it isnt suited to.

Far better to use a step up with lighter aids than to struggle on in the process with a so called 'mild' bit.


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## IdoShowing (30 June 2010)

georgiegirl said:



			A snaffle can be a terrible thing for a horse/rider who it isnt suited to.

Far better to use a step up with lighter aids than to struggle on in the process with a so called 'mild' bit.
		
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Well said!!!!


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## Enfys (30 June 2010)

Silverspring said:



			Haha! No I wasn't being serious, I ride my horse in a myler combination bit, the evilest bit in all the world mwhahahaha! Oh and I do use a saddle (Arab with a razer wither is just incomfortable otherwise) and I do try mind power but find a kick in the ribs gets us further 

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I used to hunt my arab in a Myler LS because it was the only bit that seemed to keep his brain connected to his legs at a party, at home, no bit at all. 
Nothing wrong with a Myler combi, useful bit of kit, just like the Swales probably, it suits some, but not all.


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## antagonist (30 June 2010)

For those on this post who have never seen a Swales bit, it appears on the front cover of the horse and hound this week, except many show producers have them made specially with extended shafts. They were driving bits orginally.

Their action is if you pull on the "snaffle" rein the larger ring will slide inwards and pinch and lift just over the buccal nerve squashing this against the lower jaw. The "curb" rein will have the normal action on the curb chain but will also push the larger rings inwards with added force. The longer the shaft the better the mechanical advantage the more force the more pain.

As one of the post points out they are favoured in the show ring because a small hand action can have a dramatic effect.

They are a very harsh bit (as is a sam marsh). If your horse is not well mannered they should be schooled. 

I am sure if used with very light hands then they will not inflict pain, but if you don't need to use it why is it in your horses mouth.

The problem arises when successful showers appear in these bits, they may well know what they are doing and treat the horse with respect, however less experianced showers then follow their example and misuse the bit.


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## BobbyMondeo (30 June 2010)

My point was that it is not going to cause anywhere near as much pain to the horse to very occasionally check with a stronger bit than haul on a snaffle the whole time your riding .

Some horse like stronger bits, some like snaffles its all personal preference(the horses) 

I was in no way saying that i agree with inexperienced hands using this bit, or using it for a quick fix! Which is why i said that showing does need stricter rules on bitting.


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## antagonist (30 June 2010)

BobbyMondeo said:



			My point was that it is not going to cause anywhere near as much pain to the horse to very occasionally check with a stronger bit than haul on a snaffle the whole time your riding .

Some horse like stronger bits, some like snaffles its all personal preference(the horses) 

I was in no way saying that i agree with inexperienced hands using this bit, or using it for a quick fix! Which is why i said that showing does need stricter rules on bitting.
		
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So would you ban the swales bit from the show ring?


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## eirewhisper (30 June 2010)

I think what should be banned from the showring is riders with bad hands! I have seen as many uncomfortable horses in other bits than Swales!
I think a true double looks best for showing and if used correctly gets the horse to sit up and be round but many cobs have too thick tongues to be comfortable with 2 bits. I'd rather see a nice soft round forward going horse in a Swales than a bargy rude, or hauled at mouth in a snaffle!


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## wellsat (30 June 2010)

georgiegirl said:



			Far better to use a step up with lighter aids than to struggle on in the process with a so called 'mild' bit.
		
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I completely agree with this. I ended up having a very serious hacking accident because I felt that I "ought" to be able to ride my mare in a snaffle. 

She is nicely schooled and goes well in a french link hanging cheek at home but out hacking its not enough.

If she decides to spook at something I need to be able to stop her so she's ridden in a pelham with double reins. In a snaffle she ignored me and galloped for home, with double reins I can ride off the top rein and just use the curb in extreme circumstances.

Don't judge people who choose to use a different bit unless you're willing to ride the horse yourself. Its not always because of laziness, fashions, ignorance or lack of schooling, sometimes its because its genuinely the best bit for that horse.


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## xloopylozzax (30 June 2010)

same could be said about hanging cheeks (or wilkies, or whatever else you want to call them)
they are "dodgy" in their action, yet are common place on first ridden ponies and even lead rein. also seen as bradoons on double bridles.

i do think rules ought to be more specific (plain snaffles for novice, first ridden, lead rein etc) but still flexible (variety of mouthpieces) and open classes going back to basics- generic pelham for smaller mouthed horses or double bridle for those who can manage it.

its a tough one unfortunately, you arent going to please everyone and they will evolve quickly to find the loop holes in the rulebook anyway


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## antagonist (30 June 2010)

eirewhisper said:



			I think what should be banned from the showring is riders with bad hands! I have seen as many uncomfortable horses in other bits than Swales!
I think a true double looks best for showing and if used correctly gets the horse to sit up and be round but many cobs have too thick tongues to be comfortable with 2 bits. I'd rather see a nice soft round forward going horse in a Swales than a bargy rude, or hauled at mouth in a snaffle!
		
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Why not a normal pelham that does not involve using a bit that is designed to pinch the side of the horses mouth?


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## FlorenceBassey (30 June 2010)

antagonist said:



			Can the people who use them put thier heads above the parapet and tell us why they use them.

You must be out there!!

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Why should they have to?? what has it got to do with you or anyone else for that matter!!


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## BobbyMondeo (30 June 2010)

No i wouldnt ban it from the show ring but i do think that the showing world should have stricter rules on bitting at the different levels of showing. 
I guess what im saying is we should have more rules in place to try and control the use of some bits so they dont fall into harsh hands and actually become a welfare issue for that horse.(imo a bad bit is just the same as a poorly fitting saddle or putting a rider thats too heavy on a horse which wouldnt be tolerated at most high level shows....atleast i'd hope not!)
I dont really know how this would be achieved without a complete overhaul of the system, which is probably what we need.



Its so hard to get your point across on a forum!! Grrr


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## antagonist (30 June 2010)

absolute diva said:



			I completely agree with this. I ended up having a very serious hacking accident because I felt that I "ought" to be able to ride my mare in a snaffle. 

She is nicely schooled and goes well in a french link hanging cheek at home but out hacking its not enough.

If she decides to spook at something I need to be able to stop her so she's ridden in a pelham with double reins. In a snaffle she ignored me and galloped for home, with double reins I can ride off the top rein and just use the curb in extreme circumstances.

Don't judge people who choose to use a different bit unless you're willing to ride the horse yourself. Its not always because of laziness, fashions, ignorance or lack of schooling, sometimes its because its genuinely the best bit for that horse.
		
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Normal Pelham, no problem you haven't thank goodness resorted to a bit designed to pinch the side of your horses mouth.


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## Onyxia (30 June 2010)

antagonist said:



			For those on this post who have never seen a Swales bit, it appears on the front cover of the horse and hound this week, except many show producers have them made specially with extended shafts. They were driving bits orginally.

Their action is if you pull on the "snaffle" rein the larger ring will slide inwards and pinch and lift just over the buccal nerve squashing this against the lower jaw. The "curb" rein will have the normal action on the curb chain but will also push the larger rings inwards with added force. The longer the shaft the better the mechanical advantage the more force the more pain.
		
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ANY bit will cause pain if enough force is used,granted it is easier to cause pain stronger bits but if someone is going to haul their hourses mouth around they will-whatever bit is in there.



antagonist said:



			As one of the post points out they are favoured in the show ring because a small hand action can have a dramatic effect.
		
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Nicely taken out of context 
The poster (correctly) said a gentle request via a stronger bit is better then pulling and sawing at the mouth in a softer bit NOT that a strong bit lets you get away with "invisable" aids.



antagonist said:



			They are a very harsh bit (as is a sam marsh). If your horse is not well mannered they should be schooled. 

I am sure if used with very light hands then they will not inflict pain, but if you don't need to use it why is it in your horses mouth.
		
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See above  An owner is going to use whatever bit they feel suits them and their horse best.What suits one will be wrong for the next and what bit you use is a judgement call,unless you have had a good nose inside the horses mouth and sen it ridden in a varity of bits and situations,you are not in a position to say if the current bit is suitable.




antagonist said:



			The problem arises when successful showers appear in these bits, they may well know what they are doing and treat the horse with respect, however less experianced showers then follow their example and misuse the bit.
		
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People will always do stupid things and anyone who would choose a bit based on what star of the month uses shouldnt be allowed anywhere near a horses mouth,but it is not the bit at fault.


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## Orangehorse (30 June 2010)

It is rather sweeping to say that all horses can be ridden in a snaffle.  That takes no account of how they have been schooled, or not, before you buy your horse so it comes down to finding the correct bit for your particular horse and whatever discipline you are competing in.

My horse has a very small mouth and hates a double bridle, so I use a pelham for showing.


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## eirewhisper (30 June 2010)

antagonist said:



			Why not a normal pelham that does not involve using a bit that is designed to pinch the side of the horses mouth?
		
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The point I was making was that the bit should be chosen to suit the horse - for instance the pelham has poll action - some horses dont tolerate that.


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## wellsat (30 June 2010)

antagonist said:



			Normal Pelham, no problem you haven't thank goodness resorted to a bit designed to pinch the side of your horses mouth.
		
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No, I've never heard of or seen a Swales pelham but if it does pinch as you say then Lil would have a fit as she's very sensitive. The pelham is used with a curb guard as she finds the curb action too strong.

I just wanted to speak up in defence of people who do use stronger bits occassionally as this thread was turning into "if you can't ride in a snaffle for all disciplines then you shouldn't ride at all".


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## moses06 (30 June 2010)

I have seen just as much damage done with a plain old snaffle in god awful hands than I have with a swales.......it's not the bit that's the problem, it's the hands on the other end of the reins. And unfortunatley in this day and age some people simply want a quick fix (or a fashion statement) and can't be bothered to put the time and effort in to schooling the animal. 
What should be banned from the showring, however is OBESITY.


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## BobbyMondeo (30 June 2010)

moses06 said:



			What should be banned from the showring, however is OBESITY.
		
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Totally agree with this! but thats a thread for annother day i feel!


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## eirewhisper (30 June 2010)

moses06 said:



			What should be banned from the showring, however is OBESITY.
		
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Absolutely!


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## moses06 (30 June 2010)

fumanchu said:



			ROFL
		
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LOL Looks like trolling to me!!!!


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## antagonist (30 June 2010)

The title of this thread is that I think swales bits should be banned from showing. 

Not can't use a pelham must use a snaffle.

I suspect some think the use of a swales is indefensible in the show ring so deflecting the discussion.



Re fumanchu use of a sam marsh because her horses mouth is too small for a pelham, I will leave for people to look at the picture and make thier own decision:


http://www.horsebitbank.com/sam-marsh-pelham-447.phtml

http://www.hyperdrug.co.uk/Flexi-Mullen-Mouth-Pelham-Bit/productinfo/BITFMMP/

But as she said she is not having anyone telling her what to use


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## georgiegirl (30 June 2010)

antagonist.....you say in skilled light hands a swales is acceptable.....have you ever ridden in one?? I certainly havent.

really i think until you have learned the hard way or used something sucessfully then really you dont have a leg to stand on with your info. all horses mouths are NOT the same even from when they are very first broken and dont forget it is not just the horses 'mouth' which affects how it rides.

I have broken and schooled on various youngsters, some of which have required different bits other than a snaffle, some have gone beautifully in a snaffle. Not all horses are born with super light responsive mouths simply because the rest of them (ie thier physique) doesnt allow them to respond in this way, this means a diffent way of communicating the aids ie through poll pressure or whatever suits said horse is in fact much kinder as you are giving the horse clear signals which is is able to understand for its type and shape!

I know ive said that in a bit of a gobbledegook way but i hope it makes sense, all im saying is some horses respond to pressre on the bars of the mouth, others on the tongue and others through poll pressure etc etc


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## antagonist (30 June 2010)

Actually anatomically all horses mouths are the same they have the buccal nerve running closely above the lower mandible in the region that a swales bit is putting pressure on.

Horse may react differantly to this stimulus but that does not mean that this is not a painful stimulus. I suspect a understanding of anatomy and mechanics is important in this discussion.

You are missing the point I am trying to make, you can ride differant horses in differant bits, however if a horse is requiring a harsh bit such as swales the horse is not mannerly and should be schooled and not shown.

If a "name" uses a swales then every one knows the masses will follow. Don't the "names" have a responsibility.


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## teagreen (30 June 2010)

Whatever anyone says about the swales, you're just going to bite back at them - therefore it's pointless anyone trying to defend (not that they should have to 'defend') their choice of bit. You've made it very clear you don't like it, which is fair enough, and most people have said that they don't mind it. I feel like if I tried to say anything you'd simply try to dumb me down, say 'there is always another option' and call me inhumane.


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## jaypeebee (30 June 2010)

antagonist said:



			If a "name" uses a swales then every one knows the masses will follow. Don't the "names" have a responsibility.
		
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No I dont believe they do.  It is not their problem if some clod chooses to use a bit which is totally unsuitable for their horse.  Every adult is responsible for their own actions.  If the "names" choose to use a type of bit suited to their horses then that is up to them, as it is up to each and every one of us to use whatever we deem is best for our horses.  You obviously have a beef with someone in the showing world.  Someone who has been in H&H magazine.  Take your complaint up with them, not us.


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## BobbyMondeo (30 June 2010)

antagonist said:



			If a "name" uses a swales then every one knows the masses will follow. Don't the "names" have a responsibility.
		
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Yes they do! Which is why we need rules so that only the "names" in the very high level showing classes can use these bits in the ring and in the public eye. Its people misusing these bits that makes everyone think that they are the worst thing in the world, when infact there are much worse things out there for us to worry about

I do however think that anyone should be able to use bits like this to school at home (what they do with their horse at home is none of my business really)


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## antagonist (30 June 2010)

teagreen said:



			Whatever anyone says about the swales, you're just going to bite back at them - therefore it's pointless anyone trying to defend (not that they should have to 'defend') their choice of bit. You've made it very clear you don't like it, which is fair enough, and most people have said that they don't mind it. I feel like if I tried to say anything you'd simply try to dumb me down, say 'there is always another option' and call me inhumane.
		
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No one has yet come back to disprove my assessment of how this bit works, someone come to the point debate with me how can this bit not exert pain on the horse. 

I haven't done anyone down I have put forward a point of view that is not the accepted point of view of the showing community.


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## antagonist (30 June 2010)

jaypeebee said:



			No I dont believe they do.  It is not their problem if some clod chooses to use a bit which is totally unsuitable for their horse.  Every adult is responsible for their own actions.  If the "names" choose to use a type of bit suited to their horses then that is up to them, as it is up to each and every one of us to use whatever we deem is best for our horses.  You obviously have a beef with someone in the showing world.  Someone who has been in H&H magazine.  Take your complaint up with them, not us.
		
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The only beef I have is on my dinner plate!

If the showing community is willing to stand by whilst an inappriopiate bit is used, how long before they are sacrificed on the alter of public opinion (look at panorama and crufts).

The "names" have vested interest in ensuring their chosen discipline is held in high regard and surely that should be placed higher than personal success.

I am trying to open a debate no more no less.


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## teagreen (30 June 2010)

It's not an inappropriate bit though - I can think of many show horses who use it and none of them go around looking like they are in pain or objecting in any way. I have seen some terrible displays locally with riders in plain snaffles or gags, their horses are clearly in distress; I don't see any horses looking like them in a swales at a show, do you?

I have seen it used in the showring, by driving people, by someone who teamchases and by people who simply ride in it at home. All of those people think it works for them and their horse, who looks comfortable and happy in their way of going - none of them look terrified thanks to the hunk of metal in their mouths causing them distress.


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## Onyxia (30 June 2010)

I dont see how you can argue that most horse people do not fully understand how the bit works at the same time you argue Joe Bloggs who has never seen a horse outside a bookies will not stand for it's use? 

Crufts was a very differetn issue,the in bred health problems suffered by some breeds is in peoples homes-they see their dog,their friend or neighbours dog suffering knowing not a damn thing can be done to help and it caused(spurred on by some "wonderfull" programing) a backlash.
Bitting is a completly different subject-what is right for a one horse will be hell for the next,and the ability of the rider has an impact on bit choice as well.

Bottom line,because it is late and I can not be bothered anymore,is that riders and owners must choose which piece of kit is best for their horse.
I see no reason a person should be made to feel guilty or have to justify their choice to anyone so long as they know they made it for the right reasons.


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## antagonist (30 June 2010)

teagreen said:



			It's not an inappropriate bit though - I can think of many show horses who use it and none of them go around looking like they are in pain or objecting in any way. I have seen some terrible displays locally with riders in plain snaffles or gags, their horses are clearly in distress; I don't see any horses looking like them in a swales at a show, do you?

I have seen it used in the showring, by driving people, by someone who teamchases and by people who simply ride in it at home. All of those people think it works for them and their horse, who looks comfortable and happy in their way of going - none of them look terrified thanks to the hunk of metal in their mouths causing them distress.
		
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It not the hunk of metel in the mouth that will cause pain but the ring pushing on the buccal nerve. As I have stated before horses may react to this pain in differant ways, but this does not mean the pain does not exsist.

Anedotal evidence is one thing but looking at the bit in an analytical scientific way surely tells the whole story.


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## antagonist (30 June 2010)

anima said:



			I dont see how you can argue that most horse people do not fully understand how the bit works at the same time you argue Joe Bloggs who has never seen a horse outside a bookies will not stand for it's use? 

Crufts was a very differetn issue,the in bred health problems suffered by some breeds is in peoples homes-they see their dog,their friend or neighbours dog suffering knowing not a damn thing can be done to help and it caused(spurred on by some "wonderfull" programing) a backlash.
Bitting is a completly different subject-what is right for a one horse will be hell for the next,and the ability of the rider has an impact on bit choice as well.

Bottom line,because it is late and I can not be bothered anymore,is that riders and owners must choose which piece of kit is best for their horse.
I see no reason a person should be made to feel guilty or have to justify their choice to anyone so long as they know they made it for the right reasons.
		
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Goodnight Anima, past my bed time as well, so signing off.

Final thought: have we established this bit is a harsh bit in the wrong hands. If so how do we keep it out of them hands.

PS Sensatioanal programming is fantastic at making the bookie goers hate the horse owners even more, hay we are not the most popular section of society to start of with.

Perhaps we should pick this up again tomorrow


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## Enfys (30 June 2010)

antagonist said:



			Re fumanchu use of a sam marsh because her horses mouth is too small for a pelham, I will leave for people to look at the picture and make thier own decision:


http://www.horsebitbank.com/sam-marsh-pelham-447.phtml

http://www.hyperdrug.co.uk/Flexi-Mullen-Mouth-Pelham-Bit/productinfo/BITFMMP/

But as she said she is not having anyone telling her what to use

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But then, why should any of us be _told_, it is the best way to put backs up. _Unless_ a horse is known personally how are we to know (other than what we are told on here) how a horse goes or what it prefers? 


Perhaps F's horse dislikes rubber/plastic or whatever the mullen pelham is made of as well as the shape. All of mine loathe thick mouthpieces and prefer sweet iron. If someone _told_ me I should use a different bit my answer would be "Why? Do you own this horse? Ride this horse? Know this horse at all?" If you _suggested_ that so and so bit might suit my horse then I'd be happy to listen to your thoughts.


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## Rouletterose (30 June 2010)

Antagonist....have at last trawled through this very looooooong thread and I can't imagine anyone wanting to put these contraptions in their horses mouths at any time...Swales is horrible (don't think you'd even get it in my horses mouth as it's huuuuuge) and the Sam marsh looks equally revolting, whether in experienced hands or not.

I agree with you that top level showing is supposed to be top level mannerly, well schooled, obedient horses, soooooo why would they need these bits in their mouths? and then when the judge rides them are they not thinking 'why does this horse need this? wonder what it's like in a double bridle or indeed a snaffle?'

As showing is about schooling and obedience then I agree Swales and Sam marsh bits should be banned from the ring, they are not allowed in British Dressage which is all about manners, obedience and schooling, so I think that says it all really.
Ok in showing they do have to show a gallop in a large open area, which they don't in dressage, but the horse is supposed to be well schooled is it not?

I did a fair bit of showing 25 years ago, everything went in a snaffle or a double.

Also, whoever it was that said they had to ride their cob in one of the above, why? we've had cobs over the years and if well schooled they are no stronger than anything else.

So, for what it's worth I 100% agree that these bits are not needed in the show ring and that much stronger rules need to be brought in as to the kind of bits children are allowed to use in the ring.


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## YorksG (1 July 2010)

I do have a bit of a problem with driving bits being used on ridden horses and vice versa, as the design/evolution of them is to do different jobs .A bit designed for use without the legs as aids are unlikely to be ideal for ridden horses IMO. That said, if I do not know that horse and its way of going, perhaps I should mind my own business. I do however think the comment that riding lessons are needed if your horse is in need of any bit other than a snaffle, show a sad ignorance of reality. Having a mare who is more than happy in a myler pelham, after buying her with a single jointed 3 ring gag in her mouth (ridden with one rein!) and having ridden said mare in a snaffle, which resulted in as many evasions as she could come up with, I will stick with the proof of my inability to ride and keep the pelham, which gives me a calm, willing and non evading horse.


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## skewby (1 July 2010)

LEC said:



			Any bit can be a razor in a monkeys hands.
		
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Yes very well said!!!



rosiefronfelen said:



			pastie, that is so right,the double was common on the hunting field too- all this ironmongery in horses mouths these days take away the need for good, light hands- both of ours go in snaffles,they are big horses with beautiful light mouths.that is standards for you, or the lowering of--
		
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I love my double.  After a truly spectacular hunting debut (coloured Suffolk x in field of 50 or so bay TBs, passing the Master 4 times in one morning.  And we weren't even fit enough to be out long!!) I put him in a double, just as he "got it" (outing 4 or 5 I think).

The thing I love, love, love, about having a curb, is it's independent.  It ain't there all day regardless.  Soon as horse gets rude you can give it whatever level it requires of "tweak" on that, weight instantly shifts back and you go "great here have the snaffle".  Education, love it, brilliant sudden way to get weight off front end.  Lean again, here you go, touch curb, polite pony.  Rinse and repeat.

I have to admit, the way I cured the running off hunting problem was putting the double on, making sure both bits were mouthpieces he likes and buying the weymouth with the longest shank I could get my hands on, turning into the first field, encountering the first inkling of "screw you" and hoiking up quick and hard on one side of the curb.  We were another lady's BRAKES later that day.  You get the picture.  V happy horse and rider at end of day.

Mean yes, but a split second and I now have a horse that does everything, and in particular can hunt sanely and safely and he is a fab hunter and he so knows it.  He so adores hunting.  He couldn't do that if I hadn't used those tools (plural because I use curb with spurs).

And also, my instructor only let me NEAR these things after 5 years of lessons and with close scrutiny and careful supervision.  He's a big bloody horse, and though in all ways the politest thing you'd ever meet, he has an odd obsession with going FAST which is great but he gave me the finger for 7 years.  Was annoying.

Oh and also, I ride out in a driving bit.  But does it vindicate me if I tell you, honestly, out hacking loads and xc (only times I use it) I have so much as touched it, around twice (can remember them!!!) in like, the last 6 months?

I got me a nice, light, P O W E R F U L pony out of a big sharp brute


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## skewby (1 July 2010)

Oh and sorry for tangent, OP just remembered which vile beast the swales is and ita!!!


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## Amymay (1 July 2010)

Quote:
Originally Posted by CotswoldSJ View Post
Because its better to use a harsh bit lightly than haul on a snaffle?
Or the third option would be have some lessons on learn how to ride.
		
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But I can ride - and my horse is in a snaffle 99% of the time - however, he's in a cheltenham gag to hunt.  Simply no other option.  Or would it be more prefereable to be carted around the country with no control, hauling on his mouth???


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## PucciNPoni (1 July 2010)

This may have already been said but after several pages of responses, I haven't read them all....but I prefer the use of a Swales over a double in SOME instances.  For example, my Welsh D mare has a large fleshy tounge and not a whole lot of room in their for two bits.  She will go okay in a snaffle, but typical of a cob, is heavy on the forehand and can run on a bit.  Nothing but schooling will really sort that out in the long run...however does that mean she just should not go out showing?  I have rather light hands, too much so some would argue.  The swales mouth piece is not hugely ported, it's got a rather gentle, yet narrow mouthpiece (good for her fat tongue to move under).  It, like any other bit, can be abused...

Having said that, I never actually showed her in it - we did mainly dressage.  I did however use it to school in a few times and it did the job, and got put away again in favor of a snaffle.

The swales however, is becoming a fashion item.


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## Persephone (1 July 2010)

fumanchu said:



			Roulletterose...you say a Sam Marsh "looks equally revolting".

Have you actually seen one?
Do you, and indeed Antagonistic, know how and where they sit in the mouth?
		
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I didn't actually know what a Sam Marsh was before I saw the pictures on this thread! (my bad )

What I see is a bit with a flat mouthpiece which would obviously take very little room up in the mouth. Compare that to a gob full of lovely kind plastic for a horse with very little room and I can see completely how your horse prefers it.

As for the snaffle "debate" FWIW I wouldn't actually ever use a single jointed or french link snaffle on any horse any more. The supposition that these are "kind" bits is IMO way out of date.

You only have to lay either of them over your forearm and exert pressure and you will get your skin nipped or pinched. That could happen to the horses tongue 

I always use a lozenge snaffle now as it eliminates the nutcracker and pinching action, it won't accidentally poke my horse in the roof of the mouth either.

Rubber snaffles? well, rubber really doesn't taste nice and I think they are a bit sticky in the mouth. I prefer metal. 

Plastic snaffles again are a bit of a gob full, if your horse has room great, mine hasn't. The chew marks get a bit sharp as well.

Well I am just rambling now  just really trying to say getting your horse in a snaffle shouldn't be the holy grail IMO.

And to echo an earlier comment, no bit is cruel. They are passive in the mouth until brought into action. To my mind it is all down to the rider.


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## antagonist (1 July 2010)

Good morning posters, after a long sleepless night thinking about the swales bit I am back (only joking I slept like a log and snored like a pig)

The debate seems to have moved onto other bits and I think this should be refocused on the swales bit. The question I posed was not should all horses only be ridden in a snaffle but that the swales bit should not be allowed in the show ring.

I would love to debate the Sam Marsh (which in my opinion is equally harsh)bit with fumanchu however I feel this would get this debate off the point.

The swales is a very harsh bit designed to inflict pain on the side of the horses face, in the wrong hands it is cruel. Its use is to wide spread due to "names" being seen using it, and the masses foloowing. If the name don't take a responsible moral lead then the regulators of that disciplin should regulate. Instead we see them product with longer and longer shafts!!


To single out one point from the recent posts and don't take this a s a personal attack.



PucciNPoni said:



			Nothing but schooling will really sort that out in the long run...however does that mean she just should not go out showing?  

The swales however, is becoming a fashion item.
		
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No bit should be a substitute for schooling, you should school your horse then show it. Patience is a vurtue and the rewards will be so much greater.


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## rushyj (1 July 2010)

antagonist said:



			For those on this post who have never seen a Swales bit, it appears on the front cover of the horse and hound this week, except many show producers have them made specially with extended shafts. They were driving bits orginally.

Their action is if you pull on the "snaffle" rein the larger ring will slide inwards and pinch and lift just over the buccal nerve squashing this against the lower jaw. The "curb" rein will have the normal action on the curb chain but will also push the larger rings inwards with added force. The longer the shaft the better the mechanical advantage the more force the more pain.

As one of the post points out they are favoured in the show ring because a small hand action can have a dramatic effect.

They are a very harsh bit (as is a sam marsh). If your horse is not well mannered they should be schooled. 

I am sure if used with very light hands then they will not inflict pain, but if you don't need to use it why is it in your horses mouth.

The problem arises when successful showers appear in these bits, they may well know what they are doing and treat the horse with respect, however less experianced showers then follow their example and misuse the bit.
		
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Been reading with a hint of vague amusement but seriously had to comment at this point.  I also use a range of bits on my show horses.  Sam Marsh being one of them which I find that horses with very little room in the mouth relax with this bit due to the "plate" as opposed to a bulky bit in their mouth.

Firstly for anyone wanting to criticise bit and promoting snaffles have you ever tried the nutcracker action of a jointed snaffle on the inside of your elbow?  Once my horses are broken and moving towards schooling I will use a rubber pelham as I feel that a snaffle is way to vague for a youngster and a mild pelham gives a much clearer aid for younger horses who don't understand.

Secondly I would use a swales if the horse needed it but I have never had a horse who has yet.  I have however had a stand up row with an owner who wanted me to use it as she didn't like the extra bit in her horses mouth.  He had an exceptionaly soft mouth and it was just not needed so I refused to use it. (so much for show producers using severe bits for effect)

Thirdly I would like to suggest that all the people who think that a horse should be schooled and mannerly then you wont need a strong bit in the ring have probably never sat on a produced show hunter who knows his job in the big rings.  Trust me you need brakes.  You are talking abut 17.2 plus heavyweight horse that enjoys their job being asked to gallop on with 30 plus horses.  Honestly would you do that in a snaffle on a horse that has enough about it to come anywhere?  If you want a go I can lend you a horse who schools beautifully at home in whichever bit snaffle or pelham......


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## antagonist (1 July 2010)

Your missing my point. I have no issue with people selecting an appropiate bit. 

My issue is the swales which in my opinion is a very harsh bit used in inappriopiate situations because of fashion, a fashion lead by its use by "names" some of whom show the majority of their horses in it. Surely they can not all "need" such a harsh bit.


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## BobbyMondeo (1 July 2010)

Hi again antagonist

After reading up on the anatomy after all you went to sleep last night (my memory isnt great) i have come the conclusion that bits like this do need to be regulated IN THE RING i do think that if used overly harshly then yes it could cause a great deal of pain 
I know this could be said of any other bit but it is obviously easier to be overly harsh in this bit than it is to be in a snaffle! 

I dont however have any issue with this bit in the right hands, and can see that it could be an extremely usefull bit for some horses. 
I think the bigger issue here is to stop bits becoming "in fashion" and get people more clued up and using a bit which is right for their horse not just because they saw some big name using it. 
The sad thing is that not many people do know a lot about bitting which is when bits like this do get into the wrong hands and very very honest ponies and horses put up with it being used in an overly harsh way which in turn promotes the fact that this is all ok. 
Like Persephone said it is not the bit that is cruel, it is all down to the rider


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## PucciNPoni (1 July 2010)

Rouletterose said:



			Antagonist....have at last trawled through this very looooooong thread and I can't imagine anyone wanting to put these contraptions in their horses mouths at any time...Swales is horrible (don't think you'd even get it in my horses mouth as it's huuuuuge) and the Sam marsh looks equally revolting, whether in experienced hands or not.

.
		
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I can't say anything about SM bits, but the swales I've seen isn't huge.  Huge?  Really?  Mine has got a fine-ish mouthpiece with a low port, barely over a mullen mouth.  The shanks are longish, but you needn't use the curb rein.  And if the curb is done up properly, it won't move much anyway...(my pet peeve is too loose a curb chain/strap where hte mouthpiece rotates more than 45 degrees).


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## antagonist (1 July 2010)

rushyj said:



			Secondly I would use a swales if the horse needed it but I have never had a horse who has yet.  I have however had a stand up row with an owner who wanted me to use it as she didn't like the extra bit in her horses mouth.  He had an exceptionaly soft mouth and it was just not needed so I refused to use it. (so much for show producers using severe bits for effect)

.....
		
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I dear say this owner saw it used by a name, thought I'll get a bit  of that.

They came across you and the horse was spared, I feel that this is not always the case. thus the need for refulation.


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## rushyj (1 July 2010)

I totally agree but sadly the show producers make educated choices on which bits they use in the ring for the safety of themselves and the judges but they cannot be held accountable for what other people choose to use.  The judges will certainly mention it if they think a horse is over bitted not to mention the fact an over bitted horse that is in pain will react and cetrtainly would not go round the ring in an exceptable manner so you can assume that the bit is not being activated.


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## posie_honey (1 July 2010)

i can see their place with strong horses in certain situations - esp where a light contact = control vs a strong contact in a softer bit... ie i'd rather team chase/hunt a "nutter" (for want of a better word - you catch my drift though ) safely in a bit i could use a soft contact with max affect than a bit i had to haul on as a few seconds of fighting could literally be fatal - or the example used eariler for a reschooling case that clearly worked well...
but i must admit that for showing (as in thread title) i'd rather see an exceptionally well schooled horse in a double or simple pelham - surely that's the point of it?! 
i recently did a local show and did ridden horse, leisure horse and hunter - i came 4th in ridden horse in a show pelham - then 2nd in leisure horse in a snaffle - then 1st in ridden hunter back in my show pelham - the judges actually made the point of coming over and saying how nice it was to see a horse go as well in a snaffle as a pelham - i do ALL my schooling in the snaffle (mullen so v similar to pelham) and really only use the pelham for correct dress - to do ridden or working hunter my horse has to go well for ride judges - so i have worked my ass off to have her as a very well schooled easy horse to ride... i'd rather put in that time and effort and be proud of the horse i've produced than stick her in a strong bit as a quick fix
but then again what do i know - i've only done local showing 

ETA - thread has moved on a bit since i started taht - i'd like to add i hunt my horse in a mullen snaffle with a cavesson - nothing else - so yes - i could - and have - held my show/working hunter at a stand still in a snaffle with all other horse galloping off around her if needed - i would not expect any less of her and would class not being able to hold her as bad manners or bad riding on my behalf - she's a hunter before a show horse - so she's been raised in the hunt field - so manybe that's the difference....


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## Amymay (1 July 2010)

antagonist said:



			Your missing my point. I have no issue with people selecting an appropiate bit.
		
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Surely that's what you're inferring in your posts following on from the origina though??


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## rushyj (1 July 2010)

Posie_honey I totally agree with you and in the top level of showing you will see horses that have been schooled to the enth degree and the missleading outdated thought that show horses are not really that schooled and gadgets and bits are used to get the look and the out line is frankly wrong.

These horses take hours a day to produce at the end of the day in now other sport do you put a judge on the horse to ride.  I wonder how many dressage horses would stand up to that kind of scrutiny.  Put it this way i used to live very close to a one of the top dressage yards in the country where the horses were advanced or higher beautifully schooled and every week they used to take them out for their weekly hack which used to shut the roads down as the rodeoed down the road going absolutely ballistic, but they where the top of the dressage world.  I wonder how they would have got on in a hunter class.


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## katelarge (1 July 2010)

Sorry I am still clutching my ribs from Silverspring's comment earlier!!!

Oh Silverspring you cruel opressor of horses - you MOUNT your horse? You dare to straddle it? Wicked, wicked person!

My own dear Shamanic Wind lives on an open moor and only when I feel him psychically 'reach out' to me, do I tune in to him. I align with his chakras and find it brings me great energy, and I also ask him for a few lottery numbers too. He clearly eschews my crass consumerism though as they are often wrong. 

What amazing lessons we can learn from these sacred beasts.


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## Rouletterose (1 July 2010)

To everyone asking if I have seen a Swales bit, yes I have.....

Snaffle bit....covers a huge range not just the single jointed nutcracker action(which I never use).

My horses go in KK ultra, RS Dynamic etc.

My main point here is that some posters have pointed out that they are on huge, fit strong hunters for example, but what about the huge, fit, powerful dressage horses at the same equivalent level? these horses are allowed doubles but only of a certain severity, and these are checked before they compete or after in some cases.

So would someone explain to me why show people need bits like the Swales when dressage people manage superbly without......on brilliantly schooled horses.

In answer also to what another poster said....dressage horses also 'know' their job. Sorry showing people but if your horses are mannerly and very well schooled then they don't need these bits. 

Antagonist also says that top judges are already concerned and commenting......that speaks volumes.....maybe they should voice their concerns a bit more.


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## rushyj (1 July 2010)

Ok I suggest a ride off.  1 ring with 30 show hunters and another with 30 dressage horses all of them in snaffles.  We then ride a group then we count the number of bodies after the judge calls the rings to gallop on....


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## Onyxia (1 July 2010)

antagonist said:



			Your missing my point. I have no issue with people selecting an appropiate bit. 

My issue is the swales which in my opinion is a very harsh bit used in inappriopiate situations because of fashion, a fashion lead by its use by "names" some of whom show the majority of their horses in it. Surely they can not all "need" such a harsh bit.
		
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In theory I agree,but we saw the same problem with the 3 ring gag(and still do to a degree) and ear covers ect ect to the end of a seemingly neverending list.
Anyone who IS at the top of their game should not feel they have their choices restricted by what some muppet not as far along their riding career will do.

The way to stop abuse of bits(and everything else) is to crack on with education and hammer home the message that you must choose what is right for you and your horse regardless of what others are doing.
And thats the point really,use of any bit is fine if done for the right reasons by a rider with decent hands.Abuse is a different matter.

ETA-Have enjoyed this,been a long time since we had a decent debate without it all kicking off,look forard to the next topic Antagonist


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## rushyj (1 July 2010)

Sorry to clarify meaning dressage horses of a similar level to the show hunters level ie national level......


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## Persephone (1 July 2010)

A show horse doesn't go in the same way as a dressage horse though does it?


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## FMM (1 July 2010)

Erm - one major difference. Dressage horses only canter as a group during prize givings. I happen to recall MANY prize givings at dressage where these wonderfully schooled horses rear, buck, plunge as they cannot be ridden in a group situation.

Then take up to 30 17hh plus horses all GALLOPING at the same time in an enclosed space (generally NOT on a surface) - and you still think that the two are comparable?


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## rushyj (1 July 2010)

Bloody well said FMM thank you.......


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## FMM (1 July 2010)

rushyj said:



			Ok I suggest a ride off.  1 ring with 30 show hunters and another with 30 dressage horses all of them in snaffles.  We then ride a group then we count the number of bodies after the judge calls the rings to gallop on....
		
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Far better put than my contribution! There IS no comparison.


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## rushyj (1 July 2010)

Persephone said:



			A show horse doesn't go in the same way as a dressage horse though does it?
		
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No they do go differently.  For example a hunter should be a horse you would want to ride all day in the hunting field an a dressage way of going would be a tad uncomfy all day lol


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## BobbyMondeo (1 July 2010)

Show people, what  would you put your horses being so well mannered in an open area and in a group down to apart from schooling at home, would you say that being able to use stronger bits like the swales in the ring(not saying users on here do, just show riders in general) helps you gain control and have a better picture?

Not trying to stir i am generally interested


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## Rouletterose (1 July 2010)

FMM said:



			Erm - one major difference. Dressage horses only canter as a group during prize givings. I happen to recall MANY prize givings at dressage where these wonderfully schooled horses rear, buck, plunge as they cannot be ridden in a group situation.

Then take up to 30 17hh plus horses all GALLOPING at the same time in an enclosed space (generally NOT on a surface) - and you still think that the two are comparable?
		
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Yes I do agree with you on this but....show horses are schooled and trained to canter/gallop togther..in groups. Dressage horses are not, therefore if the dressage horses were trained in that way I don't feel that would be a problem.

We had a top level dressage horse with us for a while (long story can't go into the whys and wherefores, just helping a friend out) when he came he was pretty nuts hacking in company but we persevered because we do hack.... after a few weeks he did this quietly enough and sensibly, my point being that he was trained to do it.

So after a while of good training and schooling the dressage horses would go out in groups.


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## Amymay (1 July 2010)

.show horses are schooled and trained to canter/gallop togther..in groups.
		
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When?  Where??


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## rushyj (1 July 2010)

I can only comment from my point of view but a lot of my bit choices are made with the judge in mind.  You imagine the pressure of putting a complete stranger on your hulking great horse who is well up their job in an electric atmosphre and you do consider the brakes.

The horse in my sig has been beautifully schooled all his life and is a dream to ride at home but he is sharp in the ring and knows his job.  He got his tongue over the bit at a premier show scared himself and took off and the judge had no hope of holding him (in a banbury weymouth and loose link bradoon)  That was just bad luck but you take someones health and career in your hands and you have to do what is best and safest all round.


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## rushyj (1 July 2010)

Rouletterose said:



			Yes I do agree with you on this but....show horses are schooled and trained to canter/gallop togther..in groups. Dressage horses are not, therefore if the dressage horses were trained in that way I don't feel that would be a problem.

We had a top level dressage horse with us for a while (long story can't go into the whys and wherefores, just helping a friend out) when he came he was pretty nuts hacking in company but we persevered because we do hack.... after a few weeks he did this quietly enough and sensibly, my point being that he was trained to do it.

So after a while of good training and schooling the dressage horses would go out in groups.
		
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I don't have 30 horses at home to school with......


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## teagreen (1 July 2010)

In addition to that, show horses have to deal with situations that dressage horses don't. They not only have to gallop in groups (and, straight after that galloping, do a mannerly, quiet show for a totally different rider) but they do it in the middle of a county showground, surrounded by a grandstand, throngs of people, often a motorcycle display team or the household cavelry, a brass band etc - shows have absolutely electric atmospheres.


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## rushyj (1 July 2010)

teagreen well said.

For example in the eve performance of a champ you have to ride your horse into an arena at a flying trot with music blarring at the noise level of a disco, the crowd screaming, strobe and spotlights.  Ride a group then stand like a rock in the lineup while they place the horses then a lap of honour with even more noise.  I think mannerly ride at that point goes out the window and your going on the power of prayer alone and I defy most horses to not lighten up.


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## Rouletterose (1 July 2010)

rushyj said:



			I don't have 30 horses at home to school with......
		
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Most top show producers don't need 30.


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## rushyj (1 July 2010)

I was being sacastic.  I know that all I am saying is to put the cards on the table it is very easy for people to stand on the side lines and comment about show horses and manners yes there are horses that are naturally quiet and cold blooded that would by nature be the ultimate mannerly ride but are all of them going to float in the ring, draw the judges eye and have the conf to be top level?

Turning it on its head dressage horses are supposed to be the most beautifully well schooled horses instantly responsive to the aids etc.

So why do you need spurs and double bits?  Same thing


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## Rouletterose (1 July 2010)

rushyj said:



			I can only comment from my point of view but a lot of my bit choices are made with the judge in mind.  You imagine the pressure of putting a complete stranger on your hulking great horse who is well up their job in an electric atmosphre and you do consider the brakes.

The horse in my sig has been beautifully schooled all his life and is a dream to ride at home but he is sharp in the ring and knows his job.  He got his tongue over the bit at a premier show scared himself and took off and the judge had no hope of holding him (in a banbury weymouth and loose link bradoon)  That was just bad luck but you take someones health and career in your hands and you have to do what is best and safest all round.
		
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OK genuine question....do you think that situation would have been any different if the horse had been in a Swales?


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## Sparkles (1 July 2010)

Get a hairy!

End of all problems.


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## rushyj (1 July 2010)

No he would hate a swales he always needed a slightly sharper bradoon than the weymouth.  He in actual fact needed a spinner to stop him drawing his tongue back.


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## Rouletterose (1 July 2010)

rushyj said:



			I was being sacastic.  I know that all I am saying is to put the cards on the table it is very easy for people to stand on the side lines and comment about show horses and manners yes there are horses that are naturally quiet and cold blooded that would by nature be the ultimate mannerly ride but are all of them going to float in the ring, draw the judges eye and have the conf to be top level?

Turning it on its head dressage horses are supposed to be the most beautifully well schooled horses instantly responsive to the aids etc.

So why do you need spurs and double bits?  Same thing
		
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We digress...the same reason you need doubles etc on most top level showing animals,
dressage horses...doubles and spurs
show horses...doubles and spurs.

I think the Swales bit is what was originally being discussed.

Fabulous thread and have really enjoyed chatting with you but am off to ride, late as it is!!!
HHO fault again.


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## rushyj (1 July 2010)

lol good point.... wish I was but show to organise..... grrrrr anyone wanna help with the West of England Show email me please!!!!! lol


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## ester (1 July 2010)

Binky01 said:



			Get a hairy!

End of all problems. 

 

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binky could I put my money on you and hairy being one of rushyj's survivors after the gallop off


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## Roasted Chestnuts (1 July 2010)

i have seen people riding in it and I thinks its not as severe as people make it out to be.

I see horses who go in it very well and rider is nice and light in the hands. I for one would rather see it in a horses mouth than some of the combinations out there, and I dont see it as a cheek crusher either as if horse is going straight the snaffle rings do nothing.

Nikki xxx


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## HumBugsey (1 July 2010)

People do seem to have forgotten that double bridles and spurs are supposed to be for a refinement of the aids, not because you should or because you need more impulsion or more brakes....

As for using stronger bits.... well it's one of the reasons I like driving bits, horse gets a bit strong/is fresh etc, put the bit down a slot (liverpool or reversable) for 10 minutes, when they over it go back to normal setting. 

When I was at hickstead last week every other horse was in a swales. When you see a bit that often (that isn't an eggbut or a loose ring) it does make you question how many need it and how many are using it for fashion.


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## antagonist (1 July 2010)

Every horse owner has the right to chose which bit to use taking in many differant factors. 

BUT WITH RIGHTS COMES RESPONSIBILITIES.

Surely riders have to consider the welfare of the horse, is this bit excessively harsh for what I am trying to achieve.

They have to consider there own, there horses, the judges and the publics safety.

But surely the "names" have a rsponsibilty to consider weather the masses will follow thier example leaving to a epidemic of excessively harsh bits in inexperianced hands.

The "names" have yet to take the lead on this so surely regulation is the only option unless we are happy with the current situation.

The risk is if the issue is ignored then the sport will fall on the alter of public opinion.

PS Can any one tell me that the high number of horses shown in a swales is reflective of the numbers of horses that actually need such a harsh bit.


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## PucciNPoni (1 July 2010)

antagonist said:



			Every horse owner has the right to chose which bit to use taking in many differant factors. 

.......

PS Can any one tell me that the high number of horses shown in a swales is reflective of the numbers of horses that actually need such a harsh bit.
		
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No, probably not everyone showing in a Swales NEEDS to.  However, I don't think that for that reason it should be banned.  IMO, the NS Swales is handsome looking when on (it tends to mimic the look of a double better than a rugby pelham).  But that isn't reason enough to go out and buy one and use it.  I've got one, I've used it, it's done it's job and it's now collecting dust.  If I felt the need to show in it, I certainly would.


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## antagonist (1 July 2010)

If  people are using bits that they don't need to, and this bit is being used in inexperianced hands how do you stop it.

Regulation, example or ignore the problem?


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## teagreen (1 July 2010)

antagonist said:



			If  people are using bits that they don't need to, and this bit is being used in inexperianced hands how do you stop it.

Regulation, example or ignore the problem?
		
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Have you seen any horses suffering from the ill effects of wearing this bit? I've seen it a lot in the ring, but I've yet to see any horses going terribly in it, or looking ruined.

I also don't know of anyone who has seen a producer wearing this bit, then gone and spent £70+ on it just because they saw it in H+H....Everyone I've seen using it is doing so because they feel it is the best option for their horse, and it's going very nicely in it. None seem to be suffering any ill effects.


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## antagonist (1 July 2010)

fumanchu said:



			TBH I think the Horse World as a whole has a lot more to be concerned about than what is in a Show Horses mouth for a 40 minute class...
		
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I am in total agreement, but this is the topic of this debate....have many more things I could bring up in dabate and may well do in the future, but this seems to have caught peoples attention at the moment


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## Sarah Sum1 (1 July 2010)

I read up about this bit, from a source that had nil to do with the brand.  Although it said it must be used with some care, due to the increased curb action, it seems it has hardly any poll action and it is not as severe as people are led to believe. I'm not saying you're wrong, this is just what I have read. But I do agree that any bit in the wrong hands is a severe bit in some ways. But hey ho.


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## Persephone (1 July 2010)

sarahsum1 said:



			I read up about this bit, from a source that had nil to do with the brand.  Although it said it must be used with some care, due to the increased curb action, it seems it has hardly any poll action and it is not as severe as people are led to believe. I'm not saying you're wrong, this is just what I have read. But I do agree that any bit in the wrong hands is a severe bit in some ways. But hey ho.

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Totally agree.


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## antagonist (1 July 2010)

Teagreen: I disagree and I feel I am not alone, please see the quote from my opening posts.



antagonist said:



*
Two quotes from the Horse and hound:

1)EARLIER this year, a BSPS judge wrote to H&H, concerned about the use of the Swales 3-in-1 bit in showing and describing it as "an old cavalry jaw-crunching bit". 




2)The Swales bit has become extremely popular in cob and hunter classes in recent years, but a leading show producer has warned against its overuse. 

Jayne Webber, winner of the 2009 supreme horse at Horse of the Year Show, says: "The Swales us a very sharp 'elevator' bit, which helps to get the horse to 'sit-up'. This is especially useful for cobs, which tend to want to go on their forehand. 


"They seem to be in fashion, but I only use it as a training bit and, once I've got the horse off its forehand, I change into another bit. 


"You have to have forgiving hands to use it properly; you have to ride off the leg. In the wrong hands, it can make horses back off the bridle." 


Jayne's words of warning are supported by judge and exhibitor Lucy Killingbeck, who adds: "I hate to see them so widely use, since a lot of riders just don't have the hands for it. As a judge, it can be horrible to ride a horse in a Swales which hasn't been used properly."*

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## antagonist (1 July 2010)

sarahsum1 said:



			I read up about this bit, from a source that had nil to do with the brand.  Although it said it must be used with some care, due to the increased curb action, it seems it has hardly any poll action and it is not as severe as people are led to believe. I'm not saying you're wrong, this is just what I have read. But I do agree that any bit in the wrong hands is a severe bit in some ways. But hey ho.

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Is Hey Ho the correct attitude when there is a potential welfare issue?


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## Sarah Sum1 (1 July 2010)

antagonist said:



			Is Hey Ho the correct attitude when there is a potential welfare issue?
		
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Out of everything I wrote, THAT is what you pick up on?? How odd. The point I was making is it seems it is NOT a welfare issue in some eyes, I think it completely depends on the rider and horse, I have seen some awful heavy handed riders with their horses in a double bridle, which also has curb action! So unless you are going to inspect and assess everybodys riding before they enter the ring, and decide who is able to use it, then not a lot you can do. 
P>S The welfare side is YOUR opinion so I can choose whatever wording I like thanks!


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## antagonist (1 July 2010)

sarahsum1 said:



			Out of everything I wrote, THAT is what you pick up on?? How odd. The point I was making is it seems it is NOT a welfare issue in some eyes, I think it completely depends on the rider and horse, I have seen some awful heavy handed riders with their horses in a double bridle, which also has curb action! So unless you are going to inspect and assess everybodys riding before they enter the ring, and decide who is able to use it, then not a lot you can do. 
P>S The welfare side is YOUR opinion so I can choose whatever wording I like thanks!
		
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I feel we are in agreement that any bit in the wrong hands is undesirable and that is my interpredation of the majority of posts. 

My question is where within the sport is the reponsibility to address the problem or do we ignore this?


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## Amymay (1 July 2010)

My question is where within the sport is the reponsibility to address the problem or do we ignore this?
		
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If the rules allowed people to show their hunters in a snaffle - the problem would quickly disappear.  Apart from the traditionalists who would still prefer to show in a double or any other combination that is allowed.


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## Sarah Sum1 (1 July 2010)

antagonist said:



			I feel we are in agreement that any bit in the wrong hands is undesirable and that is my interpredation of the majority of posts. 

My question is where within the sport is the reponsibility to address the problem or do we ignore this?
		
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I don't have the answers i'm afraid. I don't really know enough on the subject and was just relaying what I read. Have you researched into it properly? I mean other than the two statements from H&H? Perhaps you could write to the BHS or similar and find out their opinions?  I mean I just don;t know. If you feel strongly then thats fair enough and I respect that, but you need more than the two pieces of evidence( If there is more I apologise) to make a convincing arguement if you see what I mean. Two peoples opinions on somethng, ,means nothing in the grand scheme of things, they could be totally wrong. If 200 people had evidence that it causes pain etc, then that is when people may listen. But again just my opinion, I don't know enough and am just throwing ideas around there.

ETA the two statements from H&H are not even evidence really, so not sure how you would 'prove' it.


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## antagonist (1 July 2010)

160 post and 4000 views.

I think perhaps it is something that has to be considered by the powers that be, do you not.

Anecdotal evidence is one thing but a proper consideration of the anatomical and mechanical facts is needed.

I fear that the inherent inertia in any system will mean any action on this bit will be to late the next fad will have come about. We need to look how the system is governed to allow a rapid consideration of each new device or rely on the example form those who should know better.


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## FMM (1 July 2010)

Let's be specific. Where have you seen a horse wearing a Swales which has been distressed in any way?

I haven't seen one - not saying there are none, just that in all the many shows I have attended this year, firstly there are not 100s of people using a Swales, and secondly, the ones I have seen being used, do not appear to be causing a problem. 

So with all the equine welfare problems from which to choose, this seems to be one of the more pointless ones.  Doesn't bother me one way or the other, as I use a double on my horse. But if we thought a Swales were appropriate, then I would use one.


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## teagreen (1 July 2010)

antagonist said:



			160 post and 4000 views.

I think perhaps it is something that has to be considered by the powers that be, do you not.
		
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Er, no, not really.

If this bit appeared to be causing distress to horses in the showring, then yes. If it was causing mouths to bleed or horses becoming unworkable, then yes. But it's not - no one else on this thread has seen any welfare issues relating to this bit - it's obviously strong, no one is denying that, but there doesn't seem to be a problem anywhere.

You obviously feel strongly about it so why don't you take it to a higher power - I don't think you'll be getting much support from people on this thread though.

This has had 4000 views but only 160 replies because I think people think you have a bit of a problem and can't be bothered to reply to you....


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## rushyj (1 July 2010)

I for one agree that education is the prime factor here.  How many time do you hear people saying to use a rugby pelham as it is less in the mouth or less severe than a weymouth set.

This although it sounds like a knowledgable statement is completely incorrect as you can't drop the curb action as you can i weymouth bradoon the bit is completly vague and unstable and built as a replica of the real thing with no difined action.  So many top riders ride solely off the bradoon rein with the weymouth rein only there for if needed.  TBH I think there are far to many people slating bits and showing without the back up of actual knowledge and that is where the problems come in.  For example this post if someone was reading this who had a horse being produced that would need a swales or sam marsh and then refused to allow the horse to be ridden in one that is not a knowledgable choice it is a fashionable one.


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## antagonist (1 July 2010)

FMM said:



			Let's be specific. Where have you seen a horse wearing a Swales which has been distressed in any way?

I haven't seen one - not saying there are none, just that in all the many shows I have attended this year, firstly there are not 100s of people using a Swales, and secondly, the ones I have seen being used, do not appear to be causing a problem. 

So with all the equine welfare problems from which to choose, this seems to be one of the more pointless ones.  Doesn't bother me one way or the other, as I use a double on my horse. But if we thought a Swales were appropriate, then I would use one.
		
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As I have stated before yes there is hundreds of other welfare problem within and without of the sport, but this is what we are debating today.

Perhaps what we need is some mechanism when a new (or reinvented device) whatever (it may be) is introduced to the show ring, it is scrutanised on welfare grounds on people who have a far better understanding of these things and can look at it for the horse point of view. This will stop this current problem that I see in the swales bit but also put a mechanism in place for the next fad.

Perhaps a list of approved bits that can be used as is the case of dressage will stop "new" bits coming on the scene that have a uncertain and unproven record on welfare grounds. When the swales goes something else will come along (to quote a post several pages ago: where does it stop... a strand of barbed wire in the mouth)

_It is all of ours problem_


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## FMM (1 July 2010)

antagonist said:



			As I have stated before yes there is hundreds of other welfare problem within and without of the sport, but this is what we are debating today.

Perhaps what we need is some mechanism when a new (or reinvented device) whatever (it may be) is introduced to the show ring, it is scrutanised on welfare grounds on people who have a far better understanding of these things and can look at it for the horse point of view. This will stop this current problem that I see in the swales bit but also put a mechanism in place for the next fad.

Perhaps a list of approved bits that can be used as is the case of dressage will stop "new" bits coming on the scene that have a uncertain and unproven record on welfare grounds. When the swales goes something else will come along (to quote a post several pages ago: where does it stop... a strand of barbed wire in the mouth)

_It is all of ours problem_

Click to expand...

You appear to have missed the point of my post - I asked where YOU had seen a horse that was uncomfortable wearing a Swales.


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## teagreen (1 July 2010)

You need proof that there is a welfare issue here - as I said before, when have you seen a horse in distress because of this bit? It doesn't look to be causing pain to any of the horses I've seen it used on?

TBH, with a name like 'Antagonist' no one is going to take you seriously love


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## rushyj (1 July 2010)

Ok so how would you legislate this.

Below pic is a 5 year old novice lightweight 3/4 TB at his very first show please note he is in a standard weymouth bradoon set.  There is no pressure on the weymouth rein at all this is down to schooling and manners on his behalf.







This one I am being royaly carted in trot on an open heavyweight who seriously enjoys his job but he is not being grabbed or the weymouth being used more than the bradoon the pressure is even and not excessive.


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## Sarah Sum1 (1 July 2010)

antagonist said:



			160 post and 4000 views.

I think perhaps it is something that has to be considered by the powers that be, do you not.

Anecdotal evidence is one thing but a proper consideration of the anatomical and mechanical facts is needed.

I fear that the inherent inertia in any system will mean any action on this bit will be to late the next fad will have come about. We need to look how the system is governed to allow a rapid consideration of each new device or rely on the example form those who should know better.
		
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That is not evidence, it is mostly (not all) but people disagreeing with you! In this day and age, you need hard evidence to prove that something is either cruel or causes suffering. (believe me I know, I tried to ban animal circuses!) So I think you need to work on that, rather than trying to convince a bunch of HHO'ers who have no evidence in front of them. 
But either way, good luck


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## antagonist (1 July 2010)

My personal experiance and evidence is surely not a relevent as the experiances of the people on the opening page who are "names"

I am a nobody in the horse world! but yes I have seen it miss used commonly. And it would appear from my quotes that I am not alone.

If the suporters of the swales feel it is a safe and humane bit surely they should be pushing as much as me to have this (and future devices) examined independently by a panel of experts in animal welfare rather that a panel backed by anedotal evedence.

I am more than happy to be proved wrong but the mechanism should be in place.


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## Todmiester (1 July 2010)

Well folks, you can all hate me now. As my boy wears a swale. He goes politely and does not have his back teeth hauled out in it. Yes I have tried plenty other bits but this is one he likes. So if it aint broke I wont p*ss him off and try to fix it. 

Oh and I have yet to have a Judge dislike it as we have been at the right end of the line up for the past 2 seasons.

People get a bee in their bonnets about any bit which is not a single/double jointed snaffle or a double.

Remember us humans dont wear the same make of shoes just because someone believes that we should. We wear the shoes that best fits our feet.

So we should think the same with horse's mouths and bits.


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## Theresa_F (1 July 2010)

I do think some people are using Swales where they are not necessary, but I am not riding their horse.  They do seem very popular with the cobs at the moment.  However, I have yet to see a horse showing signs of not being happy in the ring wearing one.  Most people still seem to use a double or a simple pelham at higher level showing.

I was using a mullen mouth pelham last year but on the advice of a top ride judge have changed to a double which Stinky goes very well in.  He said the pelham was a bit too strong and encouraging him to lean, but the double means I ride off a french link snaffle with the backup of the curb if I need it.  He did say not to use a Swales as this would be too strong for  him. 

I do have friends who use a Sam Marsh on their traditionals, this bit often suits their mouth shape.  I also have friends who use the Swales after trying many other bits, especially with a horse that does not like poll pressure.  The same people also use snaffles and doubles but have found that in these cases this is what the horse likes best.

Personally I think that what you see worn in the show jumping ring is far more of a cause for concern than the Swales in showing.  I would rather see a horse in a Swales than with his mouth strapped tight, three ring gag ridden on the bottom setting and a tight martingale, which I frequently see at SJ competitions.

Every equestrian sport has people using inappropriate equipment and here showing is no different, so maybe you would be better directing your energy at the use of inappropriate equipment in all areas of equestrian sport.


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## Sarah Sum1 (1 July 2010)

antagonist said:



			My personal experiance and evidence is surely not a relevent as the experiances of the people on the opening page who are "names"

I am a nobody in the horse world! but yes I have seen it miss used commonly. And it would appear from my quotes that I am not alone.

If the suporters of the swales feel it is a safe and humane bit surely they should be pushing as much as me to have this (and future devices) examined independently by a panel of experts in animal welfare rather that a panel backed by anedotal evedence.

I am more than happy to be proved wrong but the mechanism should be in place.
		
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But again, that is not evidence! That is the opinions of two people, it is not evidence. I appreciate they prob have witnessed things, but still, you need hard and fast evidence to convince the relevant people, that this bit is pain inducing. I mean scientific facts.

ETA If you can get proof in the form of anatomical and scientific evidence and all that jazz, then yes you would be bale to make more of an impact.


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## FMM (1 July 2010)

fumanchu said:



			FMM...in a previous answer i said i believed the wonderful Robocob went in a Swales.

If so, i'm sure there was a reason for this?
and not because it was a "fashion statement"?
		
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Do you know, I can't remember!  And I actually rode him in a few championships when Jayne was on something else. Let me try to find a pic ... age is a dreadful thing ...

OK - looked at some pics of me riding him and he was in a "normal" bit - not to say that he did not wear a Swales on occasion though. If it is the right bit then we will use it.

It would be rare (if not unheard of) for us to use a Swales on a horse that we had had for breaking and then showing. But for some of the older horses that have been through several hands before they get to us, we would use whatever is the right bit for that horse/rider combination.


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## rushyj (1 July 2010)

Beautifully put.  Do we not live in enough of a policed state as it is can people not make their own judgements and decisions..


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## Megan_T (1 July 2010)

I don't know anywhere near enough to make a comment on the use of the bit as I've never used one nor have I ever even seen one!

However, I have only one comment to make and that is that, in my opinion, the whole tone of the original post was only EVER going to get people's back's up. It was aggressive in nature and very forceful.

You mentioned early in the thread that you only wanted to "start a debate". Well, it might be worth bearing in mind next time you want to do so, to not take quite the same tone.

The reaction you've recieved here is nothing more than you should have expected, or deserved.


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## antagonist (1 July 2010)

rushyj said:



			Ok so how would you legislate this.

Below pic is a 5 year old novice lightweight 3/4 TB at his very first show please note he is in a standard weymouth bradoon set.  There is no pressure on the weymouth rein at all this is down to schooling and manners on his behalf.







This one I am being royaly carted in trot on an open heavyweight who seriously enjoys his job but he is not being grabbed or the weymouth being used more than the bradoon the pressure is even and not excessive.






Click to expand...

Have I missed the point I don't see a swales bit?

I take it you know what you are doing, does everyone who uses a swales?

Why not allow this bit to come under proper scrutiny?


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## antagonist (1 July 2010)

Megan_T said:



			I don't know anywhere near enough to make a comment on the use of the bit as I've never used one nor have I ever even seen one!

However, I have only one comment to make and that is that, in my opinion, the whole tone of the original post was only EVER going to get people's back's up. It was aggressive in nature and very forceful.

You mentioned early in the thread that you only wanted to "start a debate". Well, it might be worth bearing in mind next time you want to do so, to not take quite the same tone.

The reaction you've recieved here is nothing more than you should have expected, or deserved.
		
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As has happen several times in this debate, the nature rather than the content of my posts have been challanged.

I will ask again.... why do the supporters of the swales not agree that the powers that be are asked to look at this (and any future bits) critically and pass judgement.

I could present the anatomical and mechanical explenation but I am not impartial.

Why not accept the challange to support your position?


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## BobbyMondeo (1 July 2010)

To be honest with you , i think a lot of people need to get off their high horse ..me included probably , should have never commented in the first place.

I think the OP was just trying to start a debate (all be it in the wrong way with quite an aggressive first post which immediately made other deffensive) and an interesting one at that about this bit in particular, not wether horses should be ridden in doubles ect . I think anyone who has been involved in this thread would say it has been interesting..i certainly have enjoyed hearing everyones opinions, after all isnt what this forum is about. 

The issue here is that nothing seems to be in place to stop bits which can cause a hell of a lot of pain very easilly landing in the wrong hands and i think this is what the OP is trying to get accross and ask peoples opinions on. The OP was not saying that people shouldnt be allowed to use this bit if it appropriate to do so, just worried about what would happen if it gets into the wrong hands (this is how i see it anyway)
At no time did the OP or anyone else on this thread ask for personal critisim over the bits that they do or do not use and it is becoming into a bit of slanging match really which i dont think is what any of us want on this forum. 

Think this is a case of agree to disagree


OP if you really want to get somewhere with this you will need hard evidence unfortunately and support from others. Contact the BHS and other organisations about this and see where it gets you. Even if it doesnt have the result you want it will hopefully raise awareness and that is always a good thing! 
Yet again education or lack of it from both sides in our horsey community seems to be at fault here


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## rushyj (1 July 2010)

The point of the above was in response to the inference that the showing world use severe bits to get a result in the ring and make choices out of fashion.  The swales is just another bit that is available to use and if it suits both horse and rider then they have the right to use it.  I also am part of the camp that I haven't seen horses going round distressed in a swales and they would be removed from the ring if they were so there is your legislation.


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## antagonist (1 July 2010)

BobbyMondeo said:



			To be honest with you , i think a lot of people need to get off their high horse ..me included probably , should have never commented in the first place.

I think the OP was just trying to start a debate (all be it in the wrong way with quite an aggressive first post which immediately made other deffensive) and an interesting one at that about this bit in particular, not wether horses should be ridden in doubles ect . I think anyone who has been involved in this thread would say it has been interesting..i certainly have enjoyed hearing everyones opinions, after all isnt what this forum is about. 

The issue here is that nothing seems to be in place to stop bits which can cause a hell of a lot of pain very easilly landing in the wrong hands and i think this is what the OP is trying to get accross and ask peoples opinions on. The OP was not saying that people shouldnt be allowed to use this bit if it appropriate to do so, just worried about what would happen if it gets into the wrong hands (this is how i see it anyway)
At no time did the OP or anyone else on this thread ask for personal critisim over the bits that they do or do not use and it is becoming into a bit of slanging match really which i dont think is what any of us want on this forum. 

Think this is a case of agree to disagree


OP if you really want to get somewhere with this you will need hard evidence unfortunately and support from others. Contact the BHS and other organisations about this and see where it gets you. Even if it doesnt have the result you want it will hopefully raise awareness and that is always a good thing! 
Yet again education or lack of it from both sides in our horsey community seems to be at fault here
		
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Thanks, I feel your take on my position acurate.

However, I am a mere lone voice and I fear my letter will end in the swing top filing cabinet.

Others far more knowlegable have expressed their concerns (see my opening post) and yet the powers that be are silent!


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## BobbyMondeo (1 July 2010)

The problem with people, not just horsey people but everyone is that we are afraid of getting shot down and turned away. Not enough people are willing to stand up for what they believe in.
I think you should at least try if you really believe in what you are saying! You would have my support anyway if thats worth anything, not that i am anybody in the horse world either.


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## abercrombie&titch (1 July 2010)

Its taken me this long to read through all the posts!!!!

Well to put in my twopenny's worth (and probably get shot down in the process!!).... I _have_ seen horses ridden in swales at county level, with what I think is an unaturally forced outline -tight and high through the neck, not really taking a contact or working through from behind (and we all know that the 'vertical' head carriage comes from working through properly!) 

FMM, RushyJ and others.... you all obviously show at very high levels.... would a level playing field in terms of what you put in the horses mouth in the show ring not be better - advantageous to all? You can still ride at home with barbed wire, a raspberry shoelace or mind power alone!! 

And i'm not even called 'antagonist'!!!!


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## the watcher (1 July 2010)

jumpinghorse said:



			I can imagine this is a joke post and instead of sitting in a chair deadly serious they're laughing their head off!!

Here's a strong bit: http://www.pointernet.pds.hu/lovaglas/lovaskep/Mikmar Combination Bit.jpg

I was reading a book (a 'story' book) and the main character thought a four ring snaffle was 'serious and would hurt the horse a lot'  not compared to the bit above.

It's better to use a strong bit gently than hauling on a snaffle, even if the rider is amazing you still get horses that need a stronger bit than a snaffle..
		
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I don't have time to read all the pages here but just wanted to say that you are quite wrong about the Mikmar Combination bit - it exerts pressure in several places but is also designed to release, has a wide angled piece across the tongue and bars and is multi adjustable.

I would use one if I wasn't completely a fan of Myler bits which are all I use at the moment.

any bit can cause harm though used badly and in the wrong hands


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## BobbyMondeo (1 July 2010)

I think you make a very good point abercrombie&titch having a regulation on what bits could be used at what levels would put people on more of a level playing field

Rules like this will not come into effect if (as i said on previous post) people worry about getting shot down! If we really want to change the system we need REALLY put the effort in and change it!


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## FMM (1 July 2010)

But it IS a level playing field as we can all use pretty much what we like!
If a judge doesn't like the bit being used, they will tell the competitor and give some advice about options.

I run a 4 day residential showing camp every year, where top judges come along, ride the horses and offer suggestions for bitting if they feel that improvement could be made to the horses way of going.

I truly do not believe that the problem is so prevalent that there needs to be new legislation about it. And bearing in mind there are photographers at pretty much every affiliated show, if there are so many horses "in pain" from their Swales, then there should be plenty of pics available.

The horse you saw going badly with the Swales would probably go equally as badly in a double - but fortunately, from what you say, this is in the minority.


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## Munchkin (1 July 2010)

I'm going to respond only to the original post otherwise I'll be here all day.

I don't think swales bits should be banned from the show ring, no. However, there would be a far easier way of eliminating those being used only for fashion, and here it is.

In classes where horses are supposedly being judged largely on manners (I'm thinking hacks, hunters, riding horses), they should be marked down if they require more severe bits.  Stronger bits do not equal manners, they equal submission. Those of you saying you've never seen a horse "in distress" in one of these bits - surely that's often because they're behaving purely to avoid being reprimanded by the bit? Horses are very good at hiding discomfort, as flight animals it's a survival technique they have developed.

I can 100% guarantee that if someone had a horse that went equally as well in a double, but was using a swales with a foot-long shank because it was "the next big thing and so-n-so-name has one", found out they'd be marked down for it, it would not be in that horses mouth at its next outing.

This may also encourage the rider who uses the swales because it "suits" their horse - which will take off with the judge otherwise - to go home and work with that horse to ensure they know how to seek a contact and work correctly as opposed to "putting their head in the right place because otherwise it hurts" and to respect the rider's aids.

Again, if said horse is a bit of a g*t and does not respond to that schooling, that I don't think it's unfair to mark it down against a horse that has.

Not going to happen, but that would be my preferred approach, rather than an outright ban.


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## abercrombie&titch (1 July 2010)

Thanks BobbyMondeo.... perhaps we need a few more 'antagonist's in the horseworld!!!Give things a bit of a shake-up!!


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## BobbyMondeo (1 July 2010)

Yes we really do need more antagonists in the world!We need more people willing to stand up for their opinions and put them accross to people higher up in the world not just friends who also wont do anything about the situation.


As i said in many of posts the main factor is the lack of education that a lot of people have about many issues including bitting which causes them just to follow trends and not actually think what would be best for their horse.


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## antagonist (1 July 2010)

Munchkin said:



			I'm going to respond only to the original post otherwise I'll be here all day.

I don't think swales bits should be banned from the show ring, no. However, there would be a far easier way of eliminating those being used only for fashion, and here it is.

In classes where horses are supposedly being judged largely on manners (I'm thinking hacks, hunters, riding horses), they should be marked down if they require more severe bits.  Stronger bits do not equal manners, they equal submission. Those of you saying you've never seen a horse "in distress" in one of these bits - surely that's often because they're behaving purely to avoid being reprimanded by the bit? Horses are very good at hiding discomfort, as flight animals it's a survival technique they have developed.

I can 100% guarantee that if someone had a horse that went equally as well in a double, but was using a swales with a foot-long shank because it was "the next big thing and so-n-so-name has one", found out they'd be marked down for it, it would not be in that horses mouth at its next outing.

This may also encourage the rider who uses the swales because it "suits" their horse - which will take off with the judge otherwise - to go home and work with that horse to ensure they know how to seek a contact and work correctly as opposed to "putting their head in the right place because otherwise it hurts" and to respect the rider's aids.

Again, if said horse is a bit of a g*t and does not respond to that schooling, that I don't think it's unfair to mark it down against a horse that has.

Not going to happen, but that would be my preferred approach, rather than an outright ban.
		
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Thanks, 

This comes back to my earlier point how could you regulate 

Allowing the judges to mark down will definately have an effect and may well let the system be reactive to the new fads, and may be more workable than regulation.

My main comment would be that the assesment of a bit should be undertaken in a scientific not anadotal way which is surely something that should be done away from the show ground by people of the appripiate scentific knowledge...O for an ideal world.

PS Do the "names" have a reponsibility to lead by example?


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## abercrombie&titch (1 July 2010)

FMM said:



			But it IS a level playing field as we can all use pretty much what we like!
If a judge doesn't like the bit being used, they will tell the competitor and give some advice about options.

I run a 4 day residential showing camp every year, where top judges come along, ride the horses and offer suggestions for bitting if they feel that improvement could be made to the horses way of going.

I truly do not believe that the problem is so prevalent that there needs to be new legislation about it. And bearing in mind there are photographers at pretty much every affiliated show, if there are so many horses "in pain" from their Swales, then there should be plenty of pics available.

The horse you saw going badly with the Swales would probably go equally as badly in a double - but fortunately, from what you say, this is in the minority.
		
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FMM... call me a world weary cynic of the highest order but I can't see a judge telling a big name to change a bit - expecially as many of the big names are on the boards and committees! Are they really going to stick their necks out that far? Look at the comments on here towards the 'antagonist'!! (And now me I should think!!!)


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## BobbyMondeo (1 July 2010)

antagonist said:



			PS Do the "names" have a reponsibility to lead by example?
		
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I dothink that they have to lead by exampe but they shouldn't not be allowed to use bits just because some idiots decide to copy. 
They should however be trying to educate people who could eventually be in their shoes on why they use this bit and what horse and rider it is suitable for. Again it just comes down to knowledge/ a lack of it.


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## FMM (1 July 2010)

abercrombie&titch said:



			FMM... call me a world weary cynic of the highest order but I can't see a judge telling a big name to change a bit - expecially as many of the big names are on the boards and committees! Are they really going to stick their necks out that far? Look at the comments on here towards the 'antagonist'!! (And now me I should think!!!)

Click to expand...

I don't believe that the "names" are the ones beig criticised for bad hands on this thread? Or am I wrong?  I was under the impression that the horses going badly (can't comment, as I haven't noticed the problem so far, but will take more of an interest in future!) were those who were "copying" the "names".  Why would a judge want to tell a "name" to change the bit if the horse is going perfectly OK in it?

Sorry for the over use of "   " - but it made more sense as I was typing it!

If I have the wrong end of the stick, shout!


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## spottybotty (1 July 2010)

BobbyMondeo said:



			I dothink that they have to lead by exampe but they shouldn't not be allowed to use bits just because some idiots decide to copy. 
They should however be trying to educate people who could eventually be in their shoes on why they use this bit and what horse and rider it is suitable for. Again it just comes down to knowledge/ a lack of it.
		
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That really made me laugh! There is a person on my yard that was supposedly a groom for a VERY WELL KNOWN showjumper and she jumps and schools at home in draw reins and a magenness.


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## antagonist (1 July 2010)

Munchkin said:



			I'm going to respond only to the original post otherwise I'll be here all day.

I don't think swales bits should be banned from the show ring, no. However, there would be a far easier way of eliminating those being used only for fashion, and here it is.

In classes where horses are supposedly being judged largely on manners (I'm thinking hacks, hunters, riding horses), they should be marked down if they require more severe bits.  Stronger bits do not equal manners, they equal submission. Those of you saying you've never seen a horse "in distress" in one of these bits - surely that's often because they're behaving purely to avoid being reprimanded by the bit? Horses are very good at hiding discomfort, as flight animals it's a survival technique they have developed.

I can 100% guarantee that if someone had a horse that went equally as well in a double, but was using a swales with a foot-long shank because it was "the next big thing and so-n-so-name has one", found out they'd be marked down for it, it would not be in that horses mouth at its next outing.

This may also encourage the rider who uses the swales because it "suits" their horse - which will take off with the judge otherwise - to go home and work with that horse to ensure they know how to seek a contact and work correctly as opposed to "putting their head in the right place because otherwise it hurts" and to respect the rider's aids.

Again, if said horse is a bit of a g*t and does not respond to that schooling, that I don't think it's unfair to mark it down against a horse that has.

Not going to happen, but that would be my preferred approach, rather than an outright ban.
		
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FMM: Sorry I think you missed the point.

I think the point is: would a judge mark down a "name" in the circumstances munchkin outlined?

Boy... have I been metaphorically shouted at in the private of my own study, I couldn't see a judge being willing to put thier necks out with marking down a "name".


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## BobbyMondeo (1 July 2010)

spottybotty said:



			That really made me laugh! There is a person on my yard that was supposedly a groom for a VERY WELL KNOWN showjumper and she jumps and schools at home in draw reins and a magenness.
		
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Were not talking about showjumpers here....i feel thats a topic for annother day. 
Im also not talking about someone seeing someone using something going "oh ill try that!" and then doing it.
Im talking about top level show riders raising awareness of bits like the swales in an eloquant way that explains why it is good for the horse and how it works with the horse and the rider. 

Not quite sure why it made you laugh really.....


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## rushyj (1 July 2010)

As it is a level playing field I think the the "names" come under more scrutiny than the rest TBH.  I personally saw a very well known competitor leave a ring at speed over the collecting ring fence.  He was in a very mild bit the next year he came out in a swales and went on to be a massive winner.


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## FMM (1 July 2010)

antagonist said:



			FMM: Sorry I think you missed the point.

I think the point is: would a judge mark down a "name" in the circumstances munchkin outlined?

Boy... have I been metaphorically shouted at in the private of my own study, I couldn't see a judge being willing to put thier necks out with marking down a "name".
		
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Do we not have to assume that judges are sufficiently horse and gadget aware that they can "feel" the difference between a horse being over or wrongly bitted and a horse being light and responsive?  If so, then what is in the horse's mouth at the time is irrelevant - it is the way of going, typyness (is that a proper word?) and conformation that should be most important - and way of going is dependant upon the horse being comfortable in its mouth.


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## spottybotty (1 July 2010)

BobbyMondeo said:



			Were not talking about showjumpers here....i feel thats a topic for annother day. 
Im also not talking about someone seeing someone using something going "oh ill try that!" and then doing it.
Im talking about top level show riders raising awareness of bits like the swales in an eloquant way that explains why it is good for the horse and how it works with the horse and the rider. 

Not quite sure why it made you laugh really.....
		
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Because I have seen far worse biting at pony club shows in the jumping ring! So should the whittakers be explaining and raising awarness of the over use of grackle nosebands and three ring dutch gags and martingales and spurs on kids.


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## abercrombie&titch (1 July 2010)

FMM said:



			I don't believe that the "names" are the ones beig criticised for bad hands on this thread? Or am I wrong?  I was under the impression that the horses going badly (can't comment, as I haven't noticed the problem so far, but will take more of an interest in future!) were those who were "copying" the "names".  Why would a judge want to tell a "name" to change the bit if the horse is going perfectly OK in it?

Sorry for the over use of "   " - but it made more sense as I was typing it!

If I have the wrong end of the stick, shout!
		
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FMM - no, you don't have the wrong end of the stick (or bit!!) - the horse I saw was from a professional yard, being ridden by a professional rider. That to me was the huge sadness - and do I really believe that the judge would say anything..... I agree that the judge _should_.... but is it really going to happen? And that being the case... a list (as with dressage) of 'legal' bits... I'll fall off my soapbox now!!


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## BobbyMondeo (1 July 2010)

rushyj said:



			As it is a level playing field I think the the "names" come under more scrutiny than the rest TBH.  I personally saw a very well known competitor leave a ring at speed over the collecting ring fence.  He was in a very mild bit the next year he came out in a swales and went on to be a massive winner.
		
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I can see your point

But this screams to me that this person used the bit as a quick fix rather than focusing on getting the horse listening in the milder bit. I think its this kind of thing that causes people to think that is ok to use bits like this on an everyday basis

The problem is that we will never know if the horse actually needs this bit and this is the bit that is most comfortable in because we do not know this person or what they went through at home with the horse which is why it is difficult to regulate bits and probably why it hasnt been done before now


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## rushyj (1 July 2010)

Without sounding arrogant this person is at the absolute top of the tree and noone would dream of thinking she would use a quick fix on a horse.  Obv can't mention names on here for obvious reasons...


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## PucciNPoni (1 July 2010)

Speaking strictly as an amature, and not even a top or even close to top one at that...

I don't go out buying bits (or using training methods, for that matter) because I saw a name (amature or professional) using it.  That would just be silly because my horse isn't necessarily like the horse I'm watching. And even if it was...I wouldn't necessarily think to myself "ooooh, I gotta have that".  I'm just an average RC rider that wants to enjoy horses/showing and I do get lots of lessons .  Even then, if my RI suggests I try something, I do my homework first!

On the occasion in which I found myself shelling out £70 plus VAT and shipping for a Swales (a lot of money for me) it was because I got advice from a bitting advisor, my RI, and used some common sense.  I did not attempt to ride my horse in it without my RI present at any session that I used it.  I know it's a strong bit.  

I would say that I've seen it's use more since I bought mine - maybe it's just cos I have one that I now notice it's use more and I recognise it. 

I don't think that "names" should bear the reponsibility for us mortals do.  I think each person as an individual alone is repsonsible for his/her actions.


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## antagonist (1 July 2010)

FMM said:



			Do we not have to assume that judges are sufficiently horse and gadget aware that they can "feel" the difference between a horse being over or wrongly bitted and a horse being light and responsive?  If so, then what is in the horse's mouth at the time is irrelevant - it is the way of going, typyness (is that a proper word?) and conformation that should be most important - and way of going is dependant upon the horse being comfortable in its mouth.
		
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Sorry to sound repetative, but do the judges (experianced horse people as I am sure they are) have a sound scientific knowledge to be able to analyse the action of a bit in relation to a horses anatomy, do they have a knowledge of the physiology and anatomy of the horses head. A knowlegde of the position of nerves and sensitive structure. A knowledge of the biomechanics of the horses lower jaw.

I would suspect that their knowlege is through anadotal evidence, articals in the equine press, and a relatively small (in relation to the total knowledge available)base of personal experiance.

The equine sports have an image problem, surely they should uphold welfare as thier highest priority *and also be seen to uphold it*. The only way to do this is with a impartial, scientific based assesment of new (or reinvented) devices weather bits or anything else before they are allowed in the show ring.


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## Rouletterose (1 July 2010)

spottybotty said:



			Because I have seen far worse biting at pony club shows in the jumping ring! So should the whittakers be explaining and raising awarness of the over use of grackle nosebands and three ring dutch gags and martingales and spurs on kids.
		
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Yes they should!!! they are ambassadors for their discipline and thousands of kids accross the country copy what they do.


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## BobbyMondeo (1 July 2010)

rushyj said:



			Without sounding arrogant this person is at the absolute top of the tree and noone would dream of thinking she would use a quick fix on a horse.  Obv can't mention names on here for obvious reasons...
		
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Fair enough! Was merely commenting that on an open forum it could come accross that way to many people. I dont think that anyone at top level would use a quick fox either to be honest with you.




Im leaving this thread now, im fed up with repeating my point, people taking it the wrong way ect. Its so hard to get accross your point on a forum, i feel that if we were having this debate in person we would have actually agreeed on most things.


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## BobbyMondeo (1 July 2010)

spottybotty said:



			Because I have seen far worse biting at pony club shows in the jumping ring! So should the whittakers be explaining and raising awarness of the over use of grackle nosebands and three ring dutch gags and martingales and spurs on kids.
		
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Thank you for repeating my point!


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## Amymay (1 July 2010)

But this screams to me that this person used the bit as a quick fix rather than focusing on getting the horse listening in the milder bit.
		
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B*ll*cks!


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## rushyj (1 July 2010)

I know wasn't being rude just was a bit out there on a limb mentioning it but couldn't them clarify by mentioning the person....


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## FMM (1 July 2010)

antagonist said:



			Sorry to sound repetative, but do the judges (experianced horse people as I am sure they are) have a sound scientific knowledge to be able to analyse the action of a bit in relation to a horses anatomy, do they have a knowledge of the physiology and anatomy of the horses head. A knowlegde of the position of nerves and sensitive structure. A knowledge of the biomechanics of the horses lower jaw.

I would suspect that their knowlege is through anadotal evidence, articals in the equine press, and a relatively small (in relation to the total knowledge available)base of personal experiance.

The equine sports have an image problem, surely they should uphold welfare as thier highest priority *and also be seen to uphold it*. The only way to do this is with a impartial, scientific based assesment of new (or reinvented) devices weather bits or anything else before they are allowed in the show ring.
		
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No, I am sure most of them don't. But what they DO have (mostly) is the ability to FEEL what is going on under them when they ride. Anecdotal evidence and articles in the press are nothing compared with personal experience.


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## spottybotty (1 July 2010)

BobbyMondeo said:



			Thank you for repeating my point!
		
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ERR?? I have yet to see a swales bit used at a pony club show  in the show ring lol


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## antagonist (1 July 2010)

FMM said:



			No, I am sure most of them don't. But what they DO have (mostly) is the ability to FEEL what is going on under them when they ride. Anecdotal evidence and articles in the press are nothing compared with personal experience.
		
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But what about scientific fact, is that not the gold standard of evidence.

Surely there is enough doubt about this bit to put it under proper scientific scrutiny.


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## Rouletterose (1 July 2010)

Megan_T said:



			I don't know anywhere near enough to make a comment on the use of the bit as I've never used one nor have I ever even seen one!

However, I have only one comment to make and that is that, in my opinion, the whole tone of the original post was only EVER going to get people's back's up. It was aggressive in nature and very forceful.

You mentioned early in the thread that you only wanted to "start a debate". Well, it might be worth bearing in mind next time you want to do so, to not take quite the same tone.

The reaction you've recieved here is nothing more than you should have expected, or deserved.
		
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Have I missed something here? I would just like to say that I have thoroughly, thoroughly enjoyed this debate, that's what it is....a discussion, debate etc etc. I've read loads of different peoples views and opinions, whether I agree with them or indeed they agree with me doesn't matter at all. What matters is that it opens your mind on different subjects and lets you consider what other people think, some of them very experienced and some not so. I've learnt a few things from this thread, it's made me question a few things I thought in my own mind and debate and consider with myself, this can only ever ever be a good thing in the horse world, so you speak for yourself Megan T I've had a great time, I don't feel this thread has 'kicked off' at all.


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## FMM (1 July 2010)

antagonist said:



			But what about scientific fact, is that not the gold standard of evidence.

Surely there is enough doubt about this bit to put it under proper scientific scrutiny.
		
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Wouldn't have thought so as the anatomy of every horse's mouth will be quite different.  And as there does not appear to be any scientific fact, your comments are probably no more valid than those of anyone else!


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## antagonist (1 July 2010)

fumanchu said:



			But is there though?
		
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Is this not the doubt: (as well as the 5000 watchers to this debate)



_1)EARLIER this year, a BSPS judge wrote to H&H, concerned about the use of the Swales 3-in-1 bit in showing and describing it as "an old cavalry jaw-crunching bit". 




2)The Swales bit has become extremely popular in cob and hunter classes in recent years, but a leading show producer has warned against its overuse. 

Jayne Webber, winner of the 2009 supreme horse at Horse of the Year Show, says: "The Swales us a very sharp 'elevator' bit, which helps to get the horse to 'sit-up'. This is especially useful for cobs, which tend to want to go on their forehand. 


"They seem to be in fashion, but I only use it as a training bit and, once I've got the horse off its forehand, I change into another bit. 


"You have to have forgiving hands to use it properly; you have to ride off the leg. In the wrong hands, it can make horses back off the bridle." 


Jayne's words of warning are supported by judge and exhibitor Lucy Killingbeck, who adds: "I hate to see them so widely use, since a lot of riders just don't have the hands for it. As a judge, it can be horrible to ride a horse in a Swales which hasn't been used properly." _

MM and fumanchu you are both obviously more knowledgeable than me. Would you agree it is a "very sharp elevator bit....in the wrong hands it can make the horse back of the bridle" why are they backing off the bridle?

If I surported the swales bit I think I would be more than happy to open it to scientific scrutiny if not for my piece of mind but at least to prove men wrong!


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## ester (1 July 2010)

antagonist said:



			But what about scientific fact, is that not the gold standard of evidence.

Surely there is enough doubt about this bit to put it under proper scientific scrutiny.
		
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good luck with that! it takes a very very long time for something to become scientific 'fact' and even then it is open to change


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## ester (1 July 2010)

oh and you havent got 5000 watchers...... it could be the same person viewing 5000 times btw.


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## Sparkles (1 July 2010)

ester said:



			oh and you havent got 5000 watchers...... it could be the same person viewing 5000 times btw.
		
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Is it not done by IP address?

Or have I been thinking this falsely for ages now XD


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## berry (1 July 2010)

My god is this post still going on???? To the OP, get a life!!!!!!!!!!! It has nothing to do with you or anyone else what bit someone puts in their horses mouth, if it gets results then its up to them if they use it or not. 
The only time I have seen a Swales Pelham used has been at county level showing. These horses have a job to do and so do the riders/owners and if a bit helps them achieve this then so be it. I dont see you telling an athlete to not use a certain type of shoe because it pushes on certain nerves in the feet or does'nt support certain areas. If  you dont like it then thats fine dont use it. You have made your point but it is dragging on a bit now.
And as for the post at the beginning of the thread basicaly saying if you dont use a snaffle on your horse then you cant ride, what a load of ****. My mare goes lovely in a snaffle at home and on gentle hacks. But goes like a train at shows, so I put a stronger bit in. I have never used a Swales Pelham on her but if I did and it helps me achieve what im doing then I would!!!!!!1


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## antagonist (1 July 2010)

Please attack what I am saying and not me!!

I have never said every thing should be put in a snaffle, I have said the swales should be banned from the show ring.

Discuss!!


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## ester (1 July 2010)

nope afaik binky every time you click on a thread it counts as a 'view' hence the occasional game threads in SB, where you have to reply every time you look so that we try and keep the 2 numbers the same   

ps am still putting my money on you and hairy to survive  

eta........ I think it has been discussed antagonist


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## Sparkles (1 July 2010)

God damnit!!!

Every post of mine has now been mainly viewed by me no doubt then.

I feel unloved.

LOL.


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## JessandCharlie (1 July 2010)

Sorry, serious hijacking here but, how was your bsja Binky?


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## Sparkles (1 July 2010)

I just watched lol


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## antagonist (1 July 2010)

Hay its all gone quiet out there?

Do any of the showing community want to address my last post: or any one want to add comment to this thread.

The story to that point: 

I said that I felt there was enough doubt about this bit to request that it is independently looked at, my distractors said they didn't feel that there was that much doubt about this bit

My reponse was:

Is this not the doubt: (as well as the 5000 watchers to this debate)



1)EARLIER this year, a BSPS judge wrote to H&H, concerned about the use of the Swales 3-in-1 bit in showing and describing it as "an old cavalry jaw-crunching bit". 




2)The Swales bit has become extremely popular in cob and hunter classes in recent years, but a leading show producer has warned against its overuse. 

Jayne Webber, winner of the 2009 supreme horse at Horse of the Year Show, says: "The Swales us a very sharp 'elevator' bit, which helps to get the horse to 'sit-up'. This is especially useful for cobs, which tend to want to go on their forehand. 


"They seem to be in fashion, but I only use it as a training bit and, once I've got the horse off its forehand, I change into another bit. 


"You have to have forgiving hands to use it properly; you have to ride off the leg. In the wrong hands, it can make horses back off the bridle." 


Jayne's words of warning are supported by judge and exhibitor Lucy Killingbeck, who adds: "I hate to see them so widely use, since a lot of riders just don't have the hands for it. As a judge, it can be horrible to ride a horse in a Swales which hasn't been used properly." 

MM and fumanchu you are both obviously more knowledgeable than me. Would you agree it is a "very sharp elevator bit....in the wrong hands it can make the horse back of the bridle" why are they backing off the bridle?

If I surported the swales bit I think I would be more than happy to open it to scientific scrutiny if not for my piece of mind but at least to prove me wrong!


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## Sarah Sum1 (1 July 2010)

I think the fact it's gone quiet, means people have said their bit (no pun intended ) and it will die off now. You won't get the answers you want or need on here, time to take your queries else where to get some proper answers/evidence.


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## rosie fronfelen (1 July 2010)

as they say, too many chiefs and not enough indians!!! lol-


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## Sarah Sum1 (1 July 2010)

rosiefronfelen said:



			as they say, too many chiefs and not enough indians!!! lol-
		
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I thought you were going to say "too many chefs spoil the broth" ! lol


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## antagonist (1 July 2010)

I think you are right.

That leaves it to me to thank all those who took part in the debate, hopefully we have allowed people to question their position on this topic, even if that position has not changed.

I have enjoyed the highs the lows, the laughs, the spats and the tears of this lively debate, hope you have as well.

animadverto vos iterum procul forum


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## pastie2 (1 July 2010)

antagonist said:



			I think you are right.

That leaves it to me to thank all those who took part in the debate, hopefully we have allowed people to question their position on this topic, even if that position has not changed.

I have enjoyed the highs the lows, the laughs, the spats and the tears of this lively debate, hope you have as well.

animadverto vos iterum procul forum
		
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Well said, it has in the main been a very interesting debate and thank you for starting it, I think  that a lot can be learned from many replies. Your last post (above) also shows that you are a truely rounded indevidual!!!


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## Onyxia (1 July 2010)

Rouletterose said:



			Yes they should!!! they are ambassadors for their discipline and thousands of kids accross the country copy what they do.
		
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The kids dont-I can garentee there is no way in hell my son would EVER be allowed to put a piece of kit on a horse or pony that I did not feel was the right thing for that animal.
It is no the fault of anyone at the top of their tree (whatever they may do) if people mimic without understanding or that some parents are too weak to say no to children who are too young to know any better!

Big Name X has a horse who goes best in a gag. It suits the horse and everyone involved is happy with the choice because they understand the action of the bit and when/how to use it correctly.
Should Big Name X really struggle with a snaffle for fear that someone in the PC is going to nag mummy dearest for the same kit to look cool? Not helping the pros horse at all and PC kids mount will end up being hauled about in the mouth anyway(sorry,but I refuse to belive anyone who would choose a bit purely because someone else uses it is capable of riding well ennough to use the most mild,let alone said "cool"bits!)

Change in anythign takes time,if we could get more into the PC tests and BHS stages about the importance of fitting the most apropriate bit it would be a good thing for most but I would be willing to bet a rather large sum that the fashion led will still be doing unspeakable things to their horses because Big name X made a responsable thought out choice for their horse,and hell,it looked cool


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## **show cob** (11 April 2012)

i have owned my cob for nearlly 10 years,the only bit that i have come across that stops her leaning is the swales and i am proud to say i do use it for showing.i found that to show a cob in a ridden class you had to use a pelham with double reins. i tried,jointed,straight bar,rubber the lot.My mare just wouldnt keep her head above her shoulders due to the curb action.someone told me about the swales so i got one to try,its brilliant but only if you know your horse and have soft hands.she works in a lovely outline and is so light on the forehand its unbelievable.i can now ride her with only a slight contact on her mouth  it isnt  severe bit at all.because you have loose rings that move on the mouth piece instead of being fixed,it is like riding with a straight bar snaffle,the action only comes in to play when you use the second rein.

Bring on the comments..............


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## antagonist (19 April 2012)

Hi i thought this thread was dead and buried! But they always say there is life in an old dog!! 

My opinion has never changed, the swales bit is a very severe bit adapted from a driving bit, modified to have longer shanks to give greater leaverage. it has no place in the show ring and is a short cut to proper schooling.


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## mulledwhine (19 April 2012)

I am not a fan if the snaffle, I do not see it as a mild bit, in the wrong hands it is an instrument of torture!!!!!

Not familiar with the bitin question  but again I guess it is good in the right hands but overly horrid in the wrong


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## mulledwhine (19 April 2012)

Bley I did not realise it was a post from 18 months ago


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## antagonist (19 April 2012)

Surley in the show ring the horse should rid in an outline because it is well schooled and balance. Not because of the piece of metal in its mouth.

Any bit designed for leaverage surely is just wrong, a little pull on the rains causing maximum effect without coming to the judges attention.


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## antagonist (19 April 2012)

mulledwhine said:



			Bley I did not realise it was a post from 18 months ago 

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Yes but the issues never change!


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## mulledwhine (19 April 2012)

Good point well made


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## Elf On A Shelf (19 April 2012)

I use a Swales for 2 weeks a year on my Fell pony. One week at the start of the show season when he is 3/4fit and being a leany sod and again for a week halfway through the show season after his 3week break. 

The one bit I can NOT stand in the show ring is the Wilkie. It's a gag and yet because some clever so and so named it a snaffle when they created it little kids lead rein and first ridden ponies get ridden in them, the kids have knots put in their reins quite short, they get told to hold on to the pommel thus fixing the reins and in turn the head and voila - instand head carraige. But the Wilkie is another debate altogether


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## antagonist (20 April 2012)

Why are the jdges not picking up on this...or are they to scared to challange the pony club mothers!


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