# Nosebands and forcing your horses mouth shut....thoughts??



## kc100 (10 October 2014)

So in the absence of interesting threads and good discussion....I'm going to try and provoke some good debate amongst us few that remain! 

This topic is inspired by something I have seen on Tarrsteps facebook page plus my bonkers horse that I ride....Nosebands! Bonkers horse in his aversion to anything related to a bridle hates his nose being touched, either with the bridle/noseband or even just with your hand. Of course we are working on this, minus bridle for now, just with me gently putting my hand on his nose and holding it there for a few seconds, then removing it, to make him more comfortable. 

However as per Tarrsteps FB post - why do we really need them? What noseband do you all use and what benefit do you think it brings to your riding? Are we all a bit addicted to forcing the horses mouth shut with a crank/flash/dropped noseband? Are we just covering up a problem that really the horse is not comfortable and not accepting the bridle and therefore requires something like the flash to keep its mouth shut? 

I bought a new bridle for bonkers the other week and found it almost impossible to find a bridle that has a plain noseband, that wasnt a show/hunter bridle. I'm mainly dressage focussed so wanted something other than a hunter bridle, but really struggled to find one. Eventually found something on Ebay with a plain noseband without flash etc but has the padding at the poll, and so far so good. I've not noticed him opening his mouth since I've been riding without a flash and trainer is happy, he's still mouthing up on the bit and generally working well without keeping his mouth forced shut by any piece of leather. 

I like this bit taken from tarr's FB post (she's talking about retraining a racehorse who has had stitches on his nose, hence cant wear a noseband when ridden currently) - "I'd like him to basically have a quiet, confident mouth, closed because he's comfortable in the work, rather than cranked shut. A confident front end (mouth, jaw, poll) is made possible by creating a strong back end, so that the rider feels the horse lift and carry itself, rather than being unbalanced, on the forehand, hanging on the hands like a dead weight. The correct lightness that we're seeking isn't from no contact. It isn't from a harsh bit that he's scared to lean on. The right kind of lightness in front comes when the rear end can carry the front end, and once again, this takes lots of time (and know how) to build."

Any thoughts? Why do you use the nosebands you use? Could we all go noseband-less and still achieve the same results?


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## JFTDWS (10 October 2014)

Fergs wears a crank, because it was on his smart double bridle when I bought it.  It's as loose as a cavesson.  He wears it because we'd be kicked out of the ring without it.  He has noseband-less bridles for messing about at home (old spares).  He also wears a drop for jumping / low level dressage because he shares that bridle with Dae.  The drop is slightly too big for him, being Dae sized, so it's fairly loose, but he does seem happy in it - possibly because it stabilises the snaffle slightly in his mouth.

I'm currently schooling bareback and, until recently, was using an old lunging bridle with no noseband and a slightly agricultural snaffle bit. The results weren't the same, but he was still producing nice work.  I don't think his way of going is dependent on nosebands.

Dae wears a drop because I can use it to shut his mouth and stop him biting the lead horse when ride and lead   Mostly he wears it so he doesn't bite me / other horses / himself / passing strangers...


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## TheMule (10 October 2014)

Mine do all their work at home in a loose cavesson. When we compete, one dressages in a drop as her tension at a competition causes her to tilt and open her mouth so that keeps her quiet in a test. The other jumps in a grackle as she tends to try to grab the bit when we up the pace a little in a jump off


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## ljohnsonsj (10 October 2014)

I could ride my ex racehorse without a noseband and she would behave exactly the same, i warm her up on buckle end in w/t/c so she can use her full back/neck muscles and stretch to the floor, she is not strong and by warming up like this and slowly taking up a contact instead of working her into a contact from the start,she is much nicer to ride and really 'uses' herself. I ride her in plain noseband and a snaffle for flatwork, i keep her noseband on purely because it looks better *drops head in shame* it is on loosely and to be honest, i doubt it has any effect on her at all.

However, my bigger mare who is my main showjumping one, she is a difficult one. She is extremely hot and fizzy to ride, and really quite 'gobby'. I have had multiple checks done on her mouth/face including xrays to find out why she is like she is, and their is no medical reason,she is just how she is. (She is a chestnut mare!) She is jumped in an kimblewick, with a straight noseband. Her old owners used to jump her in a running gag and grackle noseband which just made her run. She is a ****** for 'playing' with her bit and getting her tounge over (I assume accidental,as she panics when she does!) and only does it when warming up and not actually jumping so i assume this is bordem. She was probably overbitted as a youngster, and strapped down,and thats why she is so fussy in her mouth now,We are still working on that one!


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## kc100 (10 October 2014)

JFTD said:



			Dae wears a drop because I can use it to shut his mouth and stop him biting the lead horse when ride and lead   Mostly he wears it so he doesn't bite me / other horses / himself / passing strangers...
		
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Haha.....think that is a good reason for a noseband if I've ever heard one!


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## HufflyPuffly (10 October 2014)

We should definitely be able to go noseband-less and achieve the same result! I really find it hard to believe that people actually think the answer is to crank the nose in?

However (isn't there always a however ), I ride Topaz in either a grackle for jumping or a crank and flash combination on her dressage bridle. Now before I get hailed in a cloud of stones for such blasphemy let me explain our situation. It starts with Topaz not being started with dressage in mind and so her &#8216;contact&#8217; is/was very poor, she would evade and refuse a contact, I compounded this by constantly giving my contact away when she softened! Now with a good instructor we have made miraculous leaps forward with this issue.

For fast work and jumping she can get rude and gobby still, so I prefer a milder bit with the grackle, as she seems to prefer the grackle positioning on her face and it also stops her from really evading. Though as our contact is 100% improved we probably don&#8217;t need it anymore, but it stays as a comfort blanket to us lol.

Now for dressage I had the same problem everyone else does in that you cannot seem to find a nice fancy dressage bridle (read patent with white padding) without the dreaded crank and flash! So I bought one with the above but it is done up so loose it may as well not be there. I still like to add the very loose flash as when we&#8217;re doing something Topaz is particularly struggling/concentrating on she can lean on the bit and then open her mouth, so if this happens in a test I like to think it disguises it from the judge a bit more? Probably silly really&#8230;

Our aim has to never rely on a small bit of leather for control, or to cause the discomfort that a very tight noseband will have so our nosebands are loose and terribly ineffective in that sense, but for me they complete the look of the bridle (so conditioned to seeing horses with a noseband now!) and do have a use of a comfort blanket and slight disguise of training issues we are aware of and working on.

x x x


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## JFTDWS (10 October 2014)

kc100 said:



			Haha.....think that is a good reason for a noseband if I've ever heard one!
		
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Honestly, if you had to live with the "Great Highland Shark" you'd understand :eek3:


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## dianchi (10 October 2014)

But if I didn't have a noseband she would look ugly


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## kc100 (10 October 2014)

AlexHyde said:



			Now for dressage I had the same problem everyone else does in that you cannot seem to find a nice fancy dressage bridle (read patent with white padding) without the dreaded crank and flash!
		
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I think we've identified a gap in the market - that was exactly what I was looking for (love a bit of patent and white!) but could not find it for love nor money without the damn flash and crank! Gave up and bought a comfort bridle with plain cavesson but is distinctly non-shiny or with any white to be seen so a poor compromise (from my dressage blingy POV) but hopefully a much happier bonkers horse instead. Does have some fancy gold/brass buckles (didnt notice them on the picture on ebay) which almost match my accidental gold stirrups (think I need glasses....saw the pic and thought they were silver!) so at least I'm sort of co-ordinated!


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## dibbin (10 October 2014)

Our boys are both ridden in cavessons - Jazz in a padded one with a flash loop (which has never been used) and Harley in a flat hunter one.  I'll be honest, they could both be ridden without, but it makes their faces look nicer  I always do Jazz's up one hole looser than it _could_ go, so I doubt it has any effect anyway.


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## JFTDWS (10 October 2014)

dianchi said:



			But if I didn't have a noseband she would look ugly


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Ach, and this is why the forum's getting a reputation for being lightweight and lacking serious discussion.  You and your pretty pony and me and my great white shark.  Poor OP trying to start a serious discussion.  Dianchi and I are off to punish ourselves with a cat o' nine tails or something...


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## khalswitz (10 October 2014)

I wear one because I think it looks weird without one - and I also have to have one for dressage. One bridle has a plain cavesson, no flash (for those finding it hard to find one, mine is a collegiate with a plain raised cavesson, no flash!), the other is a crank but I wear it loose like a cavesson (couldn't get a normal cavesson option in SHINY).

I did have an instructor tell me to use a flash as he can sometimes show tension through lifting his lips or opening his mouth, but I won't use one. He normally does settle when I keep my leg on and ride him forward into the hand. We haven't been called on it in the ring so it can't be that bad! And I'd rather the training was right.


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## kc100 (10 October 2014)

dianchi said:



			But if I didn't have a noseband she would look ugly






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Look at this for ugly! (Stolen from Tarr's FB page again)...this is FRH Butts Abraxxas, Ingrid Klimke's horse, being ridden by her award winning groom over cavaletti....amazing really what can be achieved without tack!


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## khalswitz (10 October 2014)

kc100 said:



			Look at this for ugly! (Stolen from Tarr's FB page again)...this is FRH Butts Abraxxas, Ingrid Klimke's horse, being ridden by her award winning groom over cavaletti....amazing really what can be achieved without tack! 






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Fab isn't it? And look at the difference in the way the horse carries itself compared to how it would in a test scenario. 

However, can it achieve these things because of good training *with* tack beforehand?


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## kc100 (10 October 2014)

Back to a serious note....how many of us 'competitive' lot school in slightly more unusual manners? I.e do you do any serious schooling without certain pieces of tack? I'm very much dressage focused (bonkers isnt focused on anything AT ALL, ever) so am obviously bound by the rules in terms of competing, but at home I've had to go down other routes due to bridle/bit problems with bonkers and his awful teeth. We currently school frequently bitless (arghh the dreaded bitless word and dressage!) to give him a break from associating the bit with work in the school and I am pleased with what we are starting to achieve, he does work in an outline despite the lack of bit (we ride in a hackamore) and is soft in the contact now (started off leaning on me a lot) so I do think that examples like the above, and perhaps bitless and other less traditional methods, can be useful to horses even competing at the highest levels and not just reserved for the natural horsemanship lot. 

Anyone else have any other less than traditional methods they use that seem to work? Bonkers is the least traditional creature this earth has ever seen so always interested to hear new ideas!


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## kc100 (10 October 2014)

khalswitz said:



			Fab isn't it? And look at the difference in the way the horse carries itself compared to how it would in a test scenario. 

However, can it achieve these things because of good training *with* tack beforehand?
		
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You'd have to say there is an element of that - however who is to say that Ingrid and her team dont start their youngsters off in a similar manner? Albeit I personally wouldnt be brave enough to do that on a youngster, so if it were me then yes training under tack would allow for that kind of result as seen in the picture. But going back to bonkers horse, who has had poor training in tack, left to rot for a couple of years, hates humans (well used to), teeth left in a spectacularly bad state....we can definitely say his training has had a negative effect on him rather than positive. Yet when schooling in a headcollar or bitless (well not the orbitless, that was a disaster, but the hackamore is better) he responds very well to the point where I feel more confident and comfortable jumping him in that than I would a normal bridle with bit. 

That is not down to training, because his training was terrible - not sure what in this instance I'd put down his good response to the hackamore to. Relief perhaps from the bit?


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## JFTDWS (10 October 2014)

Well I'm schooling bareback out of necessity, but I do sometimes do it anyway just for kicks.  I ride him and jump on a neck rein and stuff like that.  I imagine I don't count as a serious dressage person though


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## Pigeon (10 October 2014)

I tried Pip in a drop, he told me where to go. 

Pippy doesn't NEED a noseband, he gnashes a bit but that's a stress thing rather than a mouth thing. Why we have to wear one for dressage, even a loose cavesson, I will never know. But also I think we should be allowed to go bitless for dressage. Silly rules, in my opinion!


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## khalswitz (10 October 2014)

kc100 said:



			You'd have to say there is an element of that - however who is to say that Ingrid and her team dont start their youngsters off in a similar manner? Albeit I personally wouldnt be brave enough to do that on a youngster, so if it were me then yes training under tack would allow for that kind of result as seen in the picture. But going back to bonkers horse, who has had poor training in tack, left to rot for a couple of years, hates humans (well used to), teeth left in a spectacularly bad state....we can definitely say his training has had a negative effect on him rather than positive. Yet when schooling in a headcollar or bitless (well not the orbitless, that was a disaster, but the hackamore is better) he responds very well to the point where I feel more confident and comfortable jumping him in that than I would a normal bridle with bit. 

That is not down to training, because his training was terrible - not sure what in this instance I'd put down his good response to the hackamore to. Relief perhaps from the bit?
		
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Very possibly. Or is it simply an alternative form of training with no associations?

I tried to reschooling a horse once who was just horrendous - would panic under saddle, rearing and bolting. A friend of mine who does western riding took him on - and now he is a kick along child's ride. Restarting him with an alternative style of riding suited him to the ground - even though the tack was heavier and the bit much bigger!

When I restarted my exracer, I made sure to use a dressage saddle and a loose ring French link -  different to the single joint d-ring and racing saddle he was used to. Some horses associate their snaffle with schooling and gag for instance with jumping - so why not associate two different methods of riding and the associated tack with something less traumatic?

I western horses, bitless horses, traditional English horses all go very differently to each other - the tack goes hand in hand with the training IMO.


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## Lexi_ (10 October 2014)

Monty wears a grackle because his crank somehow snapped between being untacked and the bridle being hung up in the tackroom (still no idea what happened) and there was a spare grackle in the tack room so his owner popped that on.  He doesn't go any differently in it.

I do keep meaning to try him without one at some point but just haven't got round to it yet.


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## khalswitz (10 October 2014)

Pigeon said:



			I tried Pip in a drop, he told me where to go. 

Pippy doesn't NEED a noseband, he gnashes a bit but that's a stress thing rather than a mouth thing. Why we have to wear one for dressage, even a loose cavesson, I will never know. But also I think we should be allowed to go bitless for dressage. Silly rules, in my opinion!
		
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*shudder* I don't!!!!

I've posted before at length about why I don't think BD should ever offer bitless dressage (unless run under a different body, or totally separate classes like the Young Horse classes). 

Horses trained bitless go very differently to bitted - different outline, tend to find collected movements much harder as well as the more advanced outline however also tend to be freer in the paces and less tense as a rule. You also have less fine communication with a bitless horse. Therefore, using the same scales of training and levels of testing is inherently unfair to bitless horses, and I think allowing bitless in normal BD classes would eventually lead to changes to the structure of how we assess dressage, which would be to the detriment of bitted horses' training and marks. 

Pure bitless dressage does not seen to have enough takers (there have been offers on here before to run pure bitless dressage and no one seemed interested!) to run alone, so that seems to kill it there.


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## Pigeon (10 October 2014)

khalswitz said:



			*shudder* I don't!!!!

I've posted before at length about why I don't think BD should ever offer bitless dressage (unless run under a different body, or totally separate classes like the Young Horse classes). 

Horses trained bitless go very differently to bitted - different outline, tend to find collected movements much harder as well as the more advanced outline however also tend to be freer in the paces and less tense as a rule. You also have less fine communication with a bitless horse. Therefore, using the same scales of training and levels of testing is inherently unfair to bitless horses, and I think allowing bitless in normal BD classes would eventually lead to changes to the structure of how we assess dressage, which would be to the detriment of bitted horses' training and marks. 

Pure bitless dressage does not seen to have enough takers (there have been offers on here before to run pure bitless dressage and no one seemed interested!) to run alone, so that seems to kill it there.
		
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To an extent I agree, but I think at the lower levels (intro and prelim) it should definitely be permissible. How many horses at that level are working 'through to the hand' anyway? I agree that (non mechanical!!) bitless bridles have plusses and minuses, but I don't think it would be disastrous to let them be used in the lower levels. If the bitless horse goes worse than the bitted horses, mark accordingly!

Also, also! 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FMo-w69I0WA

Admittedly he was trained with a bit, but I guess this shows that collection doesn't come from the mouth!


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## alsxx (10 October 2014)

I've always been a cavesson only kind of person! Everything I've had has gone just fine in a plain cavesson, done up with the traditional 2 fingers gap!

With my ex-racer, I started him in a cavesson, although it came with a flash. I tried him for a bit with a flash just to see if it made any difference, and it made him worse (pulling forwards) so I didn't continue. I am trying to focus on dressage with him, and eventually my trainer (who I respect enormously) suggested I put him in flash as we would have the occaisonal episodes of downing tools and stressing out, throwing head up and around with mouth WIDE open and tonge lolling around/back/getting it over the bit (all checks done btw, this is just his way of reacting to things, he can get very tense and anticipate and then has a five minute tizz). So I put the flash back on, although reluctantly, and it's still done up with the 2 finger gap lol - he can still open his mouth if he wants to, but not open wide and he can't cross his jaw so much, and actually it has helped because he doesn't fight the contact so much anymore. He still has his moments on occaison, but I may get away with getting rid of it at some point. But then if I get rid of it, I probably won't be able to find a nice bridle that comes without a flash haha!


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## khalswitz (10 October 2014)

Pigeon said:



			To an extent I agree, but I think at the lower levels (intro and prelim) it should definitely be permissible. How many horses at that level are working 'through to the hand' anyway? I agree that (non mechanical!!) bitless bridles have plusses and minuses, but I don't think it would be disastrous to let them be used in the lower levels. If the bitless horse goes worse than the bitted horses, mark accordingly!

Also, also! 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FMo-w69I0WA

Admittedly he was trained with a bit, but I guess this shows that collection doesn't come from the mouth!
		
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But, at the lower levels should the scales of training still be the same? Should the first step up (to novice) not include different movements and different aims regarding the way of going? Should the contact be marked differently? 

Easy to say, let the bitless be marked lower (even though it may be a better test in terms of bitless training that the bitted in terms of bitted, it would still mark lower under current marking aims) - but give it 5 years and suddenly the bitless will be up in arms again saying why is the marking biased against bitless? Then we end up with the start of a rehaul... Keep the classes separate and you don't risk that.

Collection isn't necessarily poorer bitless - but it is further up the levels of training. In pure bitless scales of training, the collected movements would be in higher levels, as proper collection is harder to achieve. Far from impossible, but it would cause a sticking point at medium/adv medium for instance where bitless would suddenly find it harder and biased against them.

I have no problem with bitless as a concept, and think many horses would benefit from the training, but I think allowing bitless in ordinary BD classes would be the start of the death of what we currently know as dressage and the scales of training - it would have to be to afford any sort of equality.


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## wench (10 October 2014)

I have used a flash on a number of occasions. If you have a horse who wears a nose net, a flash is really required to help keep it in place, especially on a windy day. (My poor horse had to put up with the net flapping all over the shop on a windy day; thank goodness he was sensible with stuff like that?)

I also tend to put a flash on for competitions, not done up tightly, but literally just to discourage the horse from opening his/her mouth, and loosing a bit of control with them!


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## webble (10 October 2014)

Just to be slightly different I am going the other way I have attached a scawbrig noseband to my bridle and am working towards being completely bitless


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## only_me (10 October 2014)

Bill wears a grackle - he has never crossed his jaw or gotten strong enough to use one but he appears to find it more comfortable!
He absolutely hates crank nosebands, which was a right pain in trying to find a double with just a normal cavesson! 

He will just tolerate a cavesson but definately prefers the grackle, doesn't appear to like flash nosebands either. Again, he tolerates flashes but goes much better in the grackle. A drop noseband is hard to fit on him - Extra full in length from poll to mouth but has quite a narrow nose!! So we stick with a grackle for everything, as its allowed in affiliated dressage here, and just use a standard cavesson on the double.

I don't like crank nosebands personally as think it it uncomfortable for the horse but have no problem with any others, provided not done up so tight that nostrils flaring at rest! People appear to have an aversion to grackles which I don't really understand, they are not that strong and in fact mine has elasticated parts so wouldn't really work in preventing a horse from crossing their jaw anyway! 

Horses are meant to open their mouths a little anyway imo- if they are accepting the bit and mouthing it then the lips will be opening slightly with teeth.  I'm not a fan of bittless but usually because the people doing it can sometimes be a bit fanatical and Condem people who uses a bit for being cruel! if you want to ride without a bit that's grand, no problem, but don't condem others who don't! And I've ridden bittless loads of times, usually in a head collar, so not adverse to riding without a bit. Plus, we usually hack with no contact on the bit!


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## MileAMinute (10 October 2014)

My boy doesn't need a noseband - he wears a cavesson but it's not done up tightly enough for it to have much effect. However, I do prefer it on for aesthetic reasons, and seeing as it doesn't affect him in any way I don't care if I'm shot down for admitting that  I also have to wear it for the low level dressage I do.

His lunging/spare bridle doesn't have a noseband on and sometimes I throw that on at home but I don't notice any difference in his way of going.

I don't like the fact that most bridles come with a flash as standard, and it seems to be a fashion to have your horses mouth strapped up. I've seen a worrying amount of people on FB groups that have their horses in flashes yet are actually unaware of what they do. Grackles also seem to be coming more popular too.


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## PolarSkye (10 October 2014)

This is an interesting and timely thread . . . Z always rode Kal in a grackle because she felt we needed to keep his mouth "still" . . . he went nicely enough in it . . . in the six weeks since N's been riding him, he's gone back to a cavesson (no flash) and is much, much softer and there is no difference in the "consistency" of his head carriage.  It could be, of course, that he has simply learned not to be so "gobby" during his two years with Z . . . and that N is able to capitalize on the groundwork . . . or, it could be that he prefers a cavesson to a grackle.  

I was thinking about this only this morning watching N ride him in the school.

P


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## kc100 (10 October 2014)

wench said:



			I have used a flash on a number of occasions. If you have a horse who wears a nose net, a flash is really required to help keep it in place, especially on a windy day. (My poor horse had to put up with the net flapping all over the shop on a windy day; thank goodness he was sensible with stuff like that?)

I also tend to put a flash on for competitions, not done up tightly, but literally just to discourage the horse from opening his/her mouth, and loosing a bit of control with them!
		
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But I think this is the point.....surely training and correct schooling should prevent the horse from opening up its mouth and/or the rider losing some control purely because they dont have a flash? I appreciate some horses open their mouths and some poke their tongue out, it is their thing - but I dont think I agree with using a flash or other noseband device to discourage the horse from opening its mouth, if the horse wants to do this in the first place then that is an indicator it is evading the contact, not accepting the bridle etc and needs further schooling or an evaluation of the bit being used (or perhaps physio to correct any tension in the poll or neck). 

Understand completely for the nose net thing, but generally for competitions and schooling at home I am of the view that you should *ideally* be able to ride completely without a noseband (or at least flash/drop/crank) and not require a bit of leather to prevent your horse evading your aids.


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## Casey76 (10 October 2014)

My mare has a lovely bridle by Privelige Equitation that had a removable flash hanger, so now it looks just like a normal cavesson


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## Oscar (10 October 2014)

I started my youngster in a flash (because bridle came like that), but he was a pain to untack, and I tried a drop which he told me in no uncertain terms he didn't like, so I've taken the noseband off completely. I will look for a plain cavesson that I have done up loose just so it looks a better picture.  He is just 5, 17.3hh WB.

If I was hunting or eventing I might consider nosebands a factor but just doing a bit of hacking and schooling it's made no negative difference removing it altogether.


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## Jane_Lou (10 October 2014)

I watched a male pro eventer tighten a noseband so tight the other day and then hitch it up over the head to tighten it even more! At one point two men were pulling on it together! Not a pretty sight I can tell you.


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## stilltrying (10 October 2014)

kc100 said:



			I think we've identified a gap in the market - that was exactly what I was looking for (love a bit of patent and white!) but could not find it for love nor money without the damn flash and crank! Gave up and bought a comfort bridle with plain cavesson but is distinctly non-shiny or with any white to be seen so a poor compromise (from my dressage blingy POV) but hopefully a much happier bonkers horse instead. Does have some fancy gold/brass buckles (didnt notice them on the picture on ebay) which almost match my accidental gold stirrups (think I need glasses....saw the pic and thought they were silver!) so at least I'm sort of co-ordinated!
		
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I'm currently waiting on a padded headpiece bridle with a drop noseband in cognac from FSS bridles (ebay).  Will let you all know about the quality once it arrives but they do some seriously blingy bridles, not all with flashes.  I had the option of getting a caverson attachment too, but thought i'd wait and see what the quality was like first.


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## daffy44 (10 October 2014)

As with everything, different horses prefer different nosebands, some love a drop, some loathe it, it can just be trial and error.  I use nosebands on my horses as they are dressage horses and have to compete in one, but its not tight whichever noseband i use.  On the subject of different things i do play about with my grown up horses (not youngsters, i'm not brave enough!) and ride bareback, and headcollars etc.  The first time i ride bareback i do have a bridle on, but if the horse is happy, then i'll do a bit bareback with a headcollar, its great fun on a comfy horse, my lovely advanced girl will happily piaffe bareback in a headcollar.


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## khalswitz (10 October 2014)

stilltrying said:



			I'm currently waiting on a padded headpiece bridle with a drop noseband in cognac from FSS bridles (ebay).  Will let you all know about the quality once it arrives but they do some seriously blingy bridles, not all with flashes.  I had the option of getting a caverson attachment too, but thought i'd wait and see what the quality was like first.
		
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I have an FSS double bridle, patent crank noseband. Quality is great - had mine three years and ride in it regularly, still looks good!!

They do lots without flashes but most are cranks


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## Chottsy (10 October 2014)

JFTD said:



			Dae wears a drop because I can use it to shut his mouth and stop him biting the lead horse when ride and lead   Mostly he wears it so he doesn't bite me / other horses / himself / passing strangers...
		
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This really made me chuckle!  I now have images of him basically snarling and snapping at everything!


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## Chottsy (10 October 2014)

I normally ride mine in just a cavesson but I put a flash on for dressage tests. I don't do it up too tight, just enough so it doesn't look baggy. 

My naughty knickers likes to stick his tongue out the side. He does sometimes do it when evading the contact but will also do it with just a headcollar on! It even flaps in time to the canter. Most of the time I leave him in the cavesson as he does work nicely in it, however dressage judges tend to be less than impressed when he gives them a full on tongue wave as he goes past the car!


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## acorn92x (10 October 2014)

Pony is a Highland and only 5 so just in a nice flat cavesson atm. I've had various people tell me that she would 'Go better' in a flash or drop and would look 'Nicer' with a grakle. When I approached about just how her way of going would be improved by a piece of leather strapping her mouth shut, I was met with a quiet mumble about how it will stop her occasionally sticking her tongue out when she stretches long and low.  I was also told to 'Stick a martingale' on her as it will stop her from 'Poking her nose out'. Excuse my 5 year old who has been broken all of a few months for not being able to maintain a constant outline...

I, like many other people here, would rather work to improve these things without seeking the need of gadgets and devices. Yes it might take longer than simply strapping a piece of leather round her mouth or stopping her from putting her head up but I don't care. I don't want my girl strapped down and shut. She is 5 years old and to be honest, I'd rather not even be thinking about additional pieces of tack aside from the saddle and bridle until a bit later on in the game!

Interesting how people think they seem to know your horses needs better than you!


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## JFTDWS (10 October 2014)

Chottsy said:



			This really made me chuckle!  I now have images of him basically snarling and snapping at everything! 

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That is basically what he does...  He's nipped my knee while I've bee riding him before.  The upside is he's very flexible...


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## j1ffy (10 October 2014)

Out of interest - those of you who say their horses hated the crank, why is this? I've always done them up as per a normal cavesson (2 fingers space) and it never occurred to me that some may still not like them.

Interestingly, my horse in Spain was a nightmare in a canter on a hack a few months ago - he'd not been hacking out in the area for long and struggled to balance so leaned on the bit with his mouth open and got faster. I put a cavesson on him and it made a huge difference, it was just enough to keep the mouth softer.  Now that his balance has improved he can hack without a noseband again, though I do think he looks more handsome with one  plus I plan to do dressage with him in England so it will have to stay.


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## wench (10 October 2014)

kc100 said:



			But I think this is the point.....surely training and correct schooling should prevent the horse from opening up its mouth and/or the rider losing some control purely because they dont have a flash? I appreciate some horses open their mouths and some poke their tongue out, it is their thing - but I dont think I agree with using a flash or other noseband device to discourage the horse from opening its mouth, if the horse wants to do this in the first place then that is an indicator it is evading the contact, not accepting the bridle etc and needs further schooling or an evaluation of the bit being used (or perhaps physio to correct any tension in the poll or neck). 

Understand completely for the nose net thing, but generally for competitions and schooling at home I am of the view that you should *ideally* be able to ride completely without a noseband (or at least flash/drop/crank) and not require a bit of leather to prevent your horse evading your aids.
		
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The two horses that have really needed the flash on have been the most schooled horses I've owned.... certainly nothing wrong with them, the bit, the bridle, their training or my riding.


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## JennBags (10 October 2014)

Interesting, I also saw the link on TS's Facebook page. 

I ride my horse in a flash, he likes to open his mouth, get his tongue over the bit, and flap it out the side of his mouth. However he does this even with the flash, so I've been considering taking it off and seeing if it makes any difference. I've also considered a drop noseband, and a grackle.  

I don't want to strap his mouth shut, but equally don't think it's something that can be "trained" out of him, it's just his thing, he usually does it when he has to concentrate on something.


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## kc100 (10 October 2014)

stilltrying said:



			I'm currently waiting on a padded headpiece bridle with a drop noseband in cognac from FSS bridles (ebay).  Will let you all know about the quality once it arrives but they do some seriously blingy bridles, not all with flashes.  I had the option of getting a caverson attachment too, but thought i'd wait and see what the quality was like first.
		
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Ahh but it has the drop noseband which is a similar method for keeping the mouth shut to the flash.....need something completely cavesson (i.e. a plain straight noseband that doesnt have a crank fastening behind, just a simple old buckle to do it up) - someone make me a shiny patent black bridle with white padding and a cavesson noseband, I'll die and go to heaven!


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## kc100 (10 October 2014)

acorn92x said:



			Pony is a Highland and only 5 so just in a nice flat cavesson atm. I've had various people tell me that she would 'Go better' in a flash or drop and would look 'Nicer' with a grakle. When I approached about just how her way of going would be improved by a piece of leather strapping her mouth shut, I was met with a quiet mumble about how it will stop her occasionally sticking her tongue out when she stretches long and low.  I was also told to 'Stick a martingale' on her as it will stop her from 'Poking her nose out'. Excuse my 5 year old who has been broken all of a few months for not being able to maintain a constant outline...

I, like many other people here, would rather work to improve these things without seeking the need of gadgets and devices. Yes it might take longer than simply strapping a piece of leather round her mouth or stopping her from putting her head up but I don't care. I don't want my girl strapped down and shut. She is 5 years old and to be honest, I'd rather not even be thinking about additional pieces of tack aside from the saddle and bridle until a bit later on in the game!

Interesting how people think they seem to know your horses needs better than you! 

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Bloody well done to you - at 5 years old you are at a critical time where she needs to learn through correct schooling, not through a piece of leather! Keep going and ignore the idiots who just want the quick fix, you will be reaping the rewards soon enough and laughing at them when they attempt to do a dressage test without their martingales.....someone will soon have a poking nose giraffe pony on their hands!


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## EquiEquestrian556 (10 October 2014)

*Before I say anything, I'm going to ask that I don't get any criticism, or "you shouldn't ride in that" lectures. It's MY horse, you've never ridden her so please don't tell me what's best for my horse.* 

Mine has a selection of nosebands. A flash for schooling and SJ, she wears it because she can get strong without one, and when wearing one is a bit lighter on the forehand. She wears her grackle with a 3 ring gag for hunting & XC, as she opens her mouth out hunting and crosses her jaw, which gives me no control. She is happy in both nosebands. Most of our others are in cavassons or no noseband. 

Each piece of tack they have on is because of their individual 'requirements'. I don't just put tack on a horse for 'looking nice', it does have a purpose.


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## mainpower (10 October 2014)

I've always ridden in plain cavessons. Back in the dark ages a trainer told me that what I feel in my hands is a symptom of what's happening behind my legs, and that's stuck with me for decades!


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## kc100 (10 October 2014)

j1ffy said:



			Out of interest - those of you who say their horses hated the crank, why is this? I've always done them up as per a normal cavesson (2 fingers space) and it never occurred to me that some may still not like them.

Interestingly, my horse in Spain was a nightmare in a canter on a hack a few months ago - he'd not been hacking out in the area for long and struggled to balance so leaned on the bit with his mouth open and got faster. I put a cavesson on him and it made a huge difference, it was just enough to keep the mouth softer.  Now that his balance has improved he can hack without a noseband again, though I do think he looks more handsome with one  plus I plan to do dressage with him in England so it will have to stay.
		
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From a bit of reading around on the crank - seems that because it is padded pushes the cheeks against the teeth (padding is all the way around the noseband, therefore able to push the soft bits of the cheeks against the teeth). That definitely could cause discomfort, even if done up loosely you wouldnt be able to avoid this unless the padding was only on the bony parts of the nose and not on the soft fleshy parts. I also think the padding does make people do it up tighter without really knowing it, because the padding seems to fool you into thinking its not as tight. 

Ultimately a crank, even done up loosely, is another mechanical method of forcing a horse's mouth closed/stopping the horse from relaxing its jaw because it is exerting pressure on the nose via a leveraged buckle. A cavesson, cannot do that because there is no mechanical system there, it is just aesthetic. 

Good point I've just read - as is the fashion for cranks at the moment (possibly the Charlotte effect with everyone, me included, wanting the white and patent bridle except hers is a double bridle); those that dont want a double bridle but want the 'look' of the patent and white means you can get a lot of bridles with cranks AND flashes! Saw tonnes of them when I was bridle shopping. Cant imagine how uncomfortable that must be for the horse...

Apparently (again going off what I've read as I'm no crank noseband expert) the 2 finger rule doesnt work with cranks either - because they are padded, the padding gives way far easier than a leather cavesson therefore it is a 'false' 2 fingers and your crank with naturally be tighter than what you'd have on a cavesson. 

Another interesting point - a horses face is not even and will have bumpy/even areas. A leather cavesson correctly fitted will give an uneven pressure because of these uneven surfaces. Whereas a crank with padding (or any noseband with padding for that matter) fills in the gaps over softer structures but because the padding is consistent it makes the pressure consistent, hence it is tighter over the bony structures. So you will have pressure spots on certain areas of the horses face which you dont want, whereas the plain unpadded cavesson doesnt exert unwanted pressure on any particular area.


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## JFTDWS (10 October 2014)

kc100 said:



			Ultimately a crank, even done up loosely, is another mechanical method of forcing a horse's mouth closed/stopping the horse from relaxing its jaw because it is exerting pressure on the nose via a leveraged buckle.
		
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Eh?  If the crank is loose, and you can easily fit 2 fingers in without deforming the padding, it cannot be forcing the horse's mouth shut any more than a cavesson (which may also be padded anyway...).  That's just basic physics.  Your final para about equal and unequal pressure doesn't make a great deal of sense to me either.


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## kc100 (10 October 2014)

JennBags said:



			Interesting, I also saw the link on TS's Facebook page. 

I ride my horse in a flash, he likes to open his mouth, get his tongue over the bit, and flap it out the side of his mouth. However he does this even with the flash, so I've been considering taking it off and seeing if it makes any difference. I've also considered a drop noseband, and a grackle.  

I don't want to strap his mouth shut, but equally don't think it's something that can be "trained" out of him, it's just his thing, he usually does it when he has to concentrate on something.
		
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I think this is almost another issue in itself - I used to ride a great big thing that even with a flash (hence why I ditched it in the end) he would still poke his tongue out when concentrating. I know in dressage a tongue poking out is a sin, and its a sign the horse is evading something or not accepting the bridle....but it does make me wonder is that really true in all cases? Yes it will be in some cases, but for some horses they do like to poke their tongue out when they are concentrating. For no other reason than that - they are light in the contact, uphill, in self carriage, working 'on the bit' or whatever term we want to call it....yet tongue is out. My trainer once got on my former horse thinking it must be something to do with my riding (fair comment, I'm no Carl Hester!) but it still happened even for him, and it happened with everyone that sat on that particular horse. 

I do wonder if the dressage powers that be need a rethink about this tongue issue, I think a lot of people feel they have to ride in gadgets because of this problem when really their horse is not evading and has accepted the bridle. There must be other signs of not accepting the bridle other than a tongue poking out/open mouth....should a judge not be looking for multiple signs of evasion in which case fair enough mark the horse down for it - but if it pokes its tongue out consistently when it concentrates it seems harsh to be marked down for this.


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## JFTDWS (10 October 2014)

EquiEquestrian556 said:



			I don't just put tack on a horse for 'looking nice', it does have a purpose.
		
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How dull.  I put loads of tat on just to look pretty.  Sparkly browbands.  Matchy matchy. Ridiculously expensive tack I really shouldn't buy.  That sort of stuff


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## kc100 (10 October 2014)

JFTD said:



			Eh?  If the crank is loose, and you can easily fit 2 fingers in without deforming the padding, it cannot be forcing the horse's mouth shut any more than a cavesson (which may also be padded anyway...).  That's just basic physics.  Your final para about equal and unequal pressure doesn't make a great deal of sense to me either.
		
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I am just going off some reading I've done so may have worded it very badly haha. 

The difference between the crank and cavesson (padding aside - you can indeed get padded cavessons) is the leveraged buckle which is based off a pulley system. I.e. the buckle & rings at each side of the crank (vs the one single buckle in the centre of the cavesson) means it can be pulled tighter using the ring at the opposite side to the buckle for leverage. Therefore it 100% can be used to fasten the noseband tighter than a cavesson, and hence shut the horses mouth. 

The padding element comes in and would of course be applicable to the cavesson, in the sense that the padding is obviously softer than a leather strap (i.e. the plain cavesson). So when you put 2 fingers behind a cavesson, it will feel different to putting 2 fingers behind a crank with padding. The padded crank is likely to feel looser because the padding is softer when you apply a little pressure with your fingers. After all, that is the purpose of the padding - to be softer right? So chances are when your crank is done up with '2 fingers' space, its probably the equivalent of 1 finger under a cavesson. 

That seems pretty logical to me, the padding is exactly that, soft padding, and is going to give way under your fingers more than a piece of plain leather. 

To try and explain the uneven pressure a little better - a horse's face is uneven, run your hand over your horses face and nose and you'll feel slight lumps and bumps. Its not perfectly flat and symmetrical. So a non-padded noseband cant compensate for that, because it is a flat piece of leather it therefore will not sit flat on an uneven surface. So any pressure on the noseband is uneven, because the lumps and bumps are preventing the pressure from being distributed perfectly evenly across that surface. Whereas the padding on a padded noseband smooths over these lumps and bumps to an extent, of course it cant fill in any gaps but where there is a bump that protrudes slightly (we are talking the tiniest measurements here) there is going to be more pressure on that 'bump' because the padding is overcompensating for the gaps elsewhere. The loose un-padded cavesson cannot exert more or less pressure because it doesnt have any leverage from the fastening mechanism. 

When I read it, it made sense to me, sorry if I'm explaining myself really badly - I'm sure we are talking tiny margins here but j1ffy was asking how a crank *might* be disliked by a horse, this just seems like it could be a tiny part to play in why a horse might not like it.


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## kc100 (10 October 2014)

JFTD said:



			How dull.  I put loads of tat on just to look pretty.  Sparkly browbands.  Matchy matchy. Ridiculously expensive tack I really shouldn't buy.  That sort of stuff 

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Oh yes, got to love a bit of matchy.....dressage would be boring without it! Waiting for new Eskadron currently, think bonkers needs a new winter outfit!


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## kc100 (10 October 2014)

daffy44 said:



			As with everything, different horses prefer different nosebands, some love a drop, some loathe it, it can just be trial and error.  I use nosebands on my horses as they are dressage horses and have to compete in one, but its not tight whichever noseband i use.  On the subject of different things i do play about with my grown up horses (not youngsters, i'm not brave enough!) and ride bareback, and headcollars etc.  The first time i ride bareback i do have a bridle on, but if the horse is happy, then i'll do a bit bareback with a headcollar, its great fun on a comfy horse, my lovely advanced girl will happily piaffe bareback in a headcollar.
		
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Love that Daffy44, must be a lovely thing to see a piaffe in a headcollar minus saddle! You're not too far from me (another Warwickshire person), if you're ever up at Swallowfield (I run the weekend shows) please can you at least do a bit of that in the warm up, would love to see the other competitors faces!


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## kc100 (10 October 2014)

Right folks I'm off now for the weekend so will not be partaking in any further discussion unfortunately but please do carry on without me, will check back in on Monday to see what you all got up to!


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## daffy44 (10 October 2014)

Hi kc100, then i must have met you!  I do compete at Swallowfield quite a bit, i think i was last there in august with my 6yr old, i am planning on going again quite soon for some music, so i'll definately let you know, no promises as to the piaffe in a headcollar though!


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## NinjaPony (10 October 2014)

I don't have a problem with cranks when they are fitted like a cavesson. My pony came to me in a grackle because "it looks pretty", which I replaced with a flash. I soon realised he doesn't actually need a flash.... and now he is in a loosely fitted crank as it came with his nice padded bridle. There does seem to be a gap in the market for a padded cavesson on a posh bridle.


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## JFTDWS (10 October 2014)

Kc, I'm feeling too lazy to quote and divide that up but...  

On point one, I completely agree that the pulley system _can_ be used to over-tighten the noseband.  However, if the noseband is not over-tightened, i.e. is easily able to fit 2 fingers in without pushing into the padding, I don't agree that it is any different from a cavesson, which may equally be overtightened through ignorance or by brute force (though not to the same degree) and if suitable adjustment to the fit isn't made to allow for any padding.

On the pressure point, I understand what you're trying to say, but that isn't really how physics works - you've actually contradicted yourself by saying padding evens pressure out, and then saying "where there is a bump that protrudes slightly (we are talking the tiniest measurements here) there is going to be more pressure on that 'bump' because the padding is overcompensating for the gaps elsewhere".  That's the very definition of not evening out pressure 

I agree with many of your premises, I'm just not convinced by the extrapolation - you assume that the noseband is overtightened due to padding (this applies to both cavessons and cranks equally, because forcibly over-tightening a crank won't allow 2 fingers in anyway so you'd be deliberately not fitting it correctly).  I completely agree that this over-tightening would cause issues and a horse to dislike it.  

However, I don't agree that this means "Ultimately a crank, even done up *loosely*, is another mechanical method of forcing a horse's mouth closed/stopping the horse from relaxing its jaw" at all.  If it's loose - and that's truly and correctly fitted (allowing for padding, as one should with any noseband) - it's not holding the jaw shut.  It just isn't!


eta - I was riding early/baby piaffe bareback in a snaffle yesterday :cool3:  Needs must and all that...


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## EquiEquestrian556 (10 October 2014)

JFTD said:



			How dull.  I put loads of tat on just to look pretty.  Sparkly browbands.  Matchy matchy. Ridiculously expensive tack I really shouldn't buy.  That sort of stuff 

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I do have sparkly browbands, ear bonnets and am very matchy matchy, I meant with nosebands, as I see people sometimes put certain types on "because they looks nice", which I don't do.


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## JFTDWS (10 October 2014)

EquiEquestrian556 said:



			I do have sparkly browbands, ear bonnets and am very matchy matchy, I meant with nosebands, as I see people sometimes put certain types on "because they looks nice", which I don't do.
		
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I know what you meant.  I was just poking you with a big stick for kicks


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## EquiEquestrian556 (10 October 2014)

JFTD said:



			I know what you meant.  I was just poking you with a big stick for kicks 

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I know.


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## twiggy2 (10 October 2014)

well my mare wont tolerate anything that sits in the area a cavesson should, have spoken to my vet and he hates cavesson and cranks as there are so many nerves running under and around the jaw in the area they sit-my mare obviously agrees. A cavesson is designed to keep the average horse from opening its mouth too wide it is not supposed to be just for decoration.

my mare is happiest in a loose drop noseband, she can open her mouth but not as wide as wide can be and it stbilises the bit and she goes best in a snaffle and a drop nothing else-she is hacked out in a halter and goes well in that although her carriage is longer in it but that is something we are working on and hopefully as she develops her muscles her carriage will become lighter in front


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## khalswitz (10 October 2014)

JFTD said:



			Kc, I'm feeling too lazy to quote and divide that up but...  

On point one, I completely agree that the pulley system _can_ be used to over-tighten the noseband.  However, if the noseband is not over-tightened, i.e. is easily able to fit 2 fingers in without pushing into the padding, I don't agree that it is any different from a cavesson, which may equally be overtightened through ignorance or by brute force (though not to the same degree) and if suitable adjustment to the fit isn't made to allow for any padding.

On the pressure point, I understand what you're trying to say, but that isn't really how physics works - you've actually contradicted yourself by saying padding evens pressure out, and then saying "where there is a bump that protrudes slightly (we are talking the tiniest measurements here) there is going to be more pressure on that 'bump' because the padding is overcompensating for the gaps elsewhere".  That's the very definition of not evening out pressure 

I agree with many of your premises, I'm just not convinced by the extrapolation - you assume that the noseband is overtightened due to padding (this applies to both cavessons and cranks equally, because forcibly over-tightening a crank won't allow 2 fingers in anyway so you'd be deliberately not fitting it correctly).  I completely agree that this over-tightening would cause issues and a horse to dislike it.  

However, I don't agree that this means "Ultimately a crank, even done up *loosely*, is another mechanical method of forcing a horse's mouth closed/stopping the horse from relaxing its jaw" at all.  If it's loose - and that's truly and correctly fitted (allowing for padding, as one should with any noseband) - it's not holding the jaw shut.  It just isn't!


eta - I was riding early/baby piaffe bareback in a snaffle yesterday :cool3:  Needs must and all that...
		
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This. I was reading kc100's initial post a little bewilderedly as well. This is what I've always understood to be the case - that cranks are bad because you can very easily abuse the pulley system, however done loosely and adjusting for padding they are essentially like a padded cavesson...


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## Enfys (10 October 2014)

I ride western, I don't think I actually possess a noseband. I would use one if there was a reason to, fortunately I don't need to. 

In the UK I used hackamores and Myler combo so no nosebands required, I used to have arabs and they could carry off the no noseband look OK anyway. The NF and welshies always wore loose cavessons purely for aesthetics (and for some reason PC instructors got narky when childrens ponies were presented for tack inspection without a noseband)  If I had a big headed horse that would look better in a noseband then yes, I would use one just because they looked less jug headed.

I also ride with jaquimas, Colombian bosals if you like, thick nosebands with rings beneath the chin, mine are quite fancy with braiding.
Shown here with a globe Pelham, with jaquimas the bit hanger (headpiece) can just be slid on and off as required, it is not fixed through the browband.


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## Kat (10 October 2014)

twiggy2 said:



			well my mare wont tolerate anything that sits in the area a cavesson should, have spoken to my vet and he hates cavesson and cranks as there are so many nerves running under and around the jaw in the area they sit-my mare obviously agrees. A cavesson is designed to keep the average horse from opening its mouth too wide it is not supposed to be just for decoration.

my mare is happiest in a loose drop noseband, she can open her mouth but not as wide as wide can be and it stbilises the bit and she goes best in a snaffle and a drop nothing else-she is hacked out in a halter and goes well in that although her carriage is longer in it but that is something we are working on and hopefully as she develops her muscles her carriage will become lighter in front
		
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My mare is also happy in a loose drop, she wears one for dressage and jumping but has a hunter style cavesson for showing,  wearing with a nose net or wearing with a curb bit (we hunt in a kimblewick). 

I don't strap her mouth shut, it would make her really angry anyway.


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## Mike007 (10 October 2014)

twiggy2 said:



			A cavesson is designed to keep the average horse from opening its mouth too wide it is not supposed to be just for decoration.
		
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Utter cobblers. The caverson noseband is to prevent a horse breaking its jaw ,by grounding the lower jaw out hunting. It is also why it is compulsory to wear a noseband xc under BE rules.
It has absolutely nothing to do with the horse opening its mouth whilst ridden.


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## twiggy2 (10 October 2014)

Mike007 said:



			Utter cobblers. The caverson noseband is to prevent a horse breaking its jaw ,by grounding the lower jaw out hunting. It is also why it is compulsory to wear a noseband xc under BE rules.
It has absolutely nothing to do with the horse opening its mouth whilst ridden.
		
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what causes the jaw to break out hunting and what do you mean by grounding the jaw? how does a cavesson prevent it?


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## Mike007 (10 October 2014)

Well ,to go into the Gorey details ,a horses jaw hinges from up near the ear and if the lower jaw digs into the ground ,it will be pulled back until it breaks . A big ditch,and a peck on landing and thats it. Its one of those strange things .Nosebands are now an accepted (almost without question) part of our tack, so the accidents they prevent are very rare. So people simply forget the original reason .


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## NZJenny (11 October 2014)

Ick - what a truly horrific thought.  I like a cavesson because to me an English bridle looks unfinished with out it.  I got sick and tired of being told to put a flash on my horse to stop him opening his mouth.  The reason why he opened it seemed to be irrelevant to most and important only to me.  

I rode endurance for years, always bitless and in a variety of types and I still hack bitless, it's no big deal.  Just attach a pair of reins to a halter and away you go - we all used to ride in halters as kids.  I like to use a bit as a fine aid (I hate seeing it used as a hand brake) and it's not like you need that fine control if you are just hacking.


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## twiggy2 (11 October 2014)

Mike007 said:



			Well ,to go into the Gorey details ,a horses jaw hinges from up near the ear and if the lower jaw digs into the ground ,it will be pulled back until it breaks . A big ditch,and a peck on landing and thats it. Its one of those strange things .Nosebands are now an accepted (almost without question) part of our tack, so the accidents they prevent are very rare. So people simply forget the original reason .
		
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and from my understanding it is thought to prevent all that by not allowing the mouth to open too wide and that is how the cavesson does prevents the above?


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## joycec (11 October 2014)

Lots of horses dislike crank nosebands no matter how loose they are fastened because the padding pushes into their cheek teeth on the sides where the top piece ends.


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## webble (11 October 2014)

Mike007 said:



			Well ,to go into the Gorey details ,a horses jaw hinges from up near the ear and if the lower jaw digs into the ground ,it will be pulled back until it breaks . A big ditch,and a peck on landing and thats it. Its one of those strange things .Nosebands are now an accepted (almost without question) part of our tack, so the accidents they prevent are very rare. So people simply forget the original reason .
		
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Thats very interesting and gory. I suppose for the average person these days then the cavesson IS purely decorative


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## WindyStacks (11 October 2014)

Very interesting Mike!

At a previous yard a horse somehow managed to dislocate and "detach" its jaw in the stables. It healed remarkably quickly (with lots of vet intervention obviously!) and "looked" normal within a week. I don't know however the long term implications of its bridle-related performance as it were though. 

Back to original question, I hate strapped shut mouths and I too strip a flash bridle of that ridiculous strap upon sight. My aim has always been to ride without a nose band, in a snaffle on the buckle and I honestly believe it's down to training, training, training, mileage and experience. 

If your horse gets "excited" jumping to the point you can't control it - stop trying to jump an entire course out of control. Jump one, come back to walk, etc., etc. 

Hacking - you don't mount and leave the yard gates at 100 knots - there is a transition period of losing control. That is what you have to master - by lessons you learn with your horse and not the purchase of a tack shop. 

My instructor told me "you either ride that horse properly or you strap it down".

Caveat: due to injury I've not ridden my chap out for a couple of months. Because my confidence had waned in that time he'll be wearing a running martingale. If he's a horror the following time I'll use a Pelham too, but leave the curb rein on his neck - it's a psychological support for ME, not him. Within a week or two he'll be back in his boring bridle and I'll be fully in control.


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## Luci07 (11 October 2014)

Interesting post. I just go with what my horse feels comfortable in. I found the comment about getting the horse to work properly from behind interesting as mine physically finds this hard (he is still growing and backward). I am having a lot of exercises incorporated to make him sit and the first sign that he is tiring is when he will try to bear down on me. Right now I alternate between flash, grackle, no flash and even a micklem depending on what we are doing. Ask me in a year when hopefully  he will have stopped growing and then I will tell you where we ended up!


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## Hoof_Prints (11 October 2014)

I ride two in just a cavesson and two in a flash. I read on here a few years back about preventing the jaw breaking so always put one on, although it is also to prevent the mouth opening too much and for aesthetic reasons. The two without a flash will open their mouths a bit but one has a curb chain which helps shut the mouth anyway, the other horse just doesn't really open his mouth much. I have a youngster in a flash as he is trying out evasive techniques which his muscle is building up and aching, and I want to avoid him learning opening his mouth works! he goes much better in a flash. My other horse just needs his mouth keeping shut, he has a weird habit of swinging his jaw from side to side and twisting his tongue when a bit excited or nervous, the flash stops him from doing this and in turn seems to stop him tensing up as much


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## JennBags (28 October 2014)

Resurrecting this thread as today I rode my horse without his flash, and he was so much softer and less gobby.  I have the flash as he has a most irritating habit of sticking his tongue out the side when he's stressing about something, but the flash doesn't prevent this at all.

Really glad I've taken it off, it won't go back on again!


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## moodymare1987 (28 October 2014)

My horse has a hunter noseband with flash attachment. I use this to jump in. The flash isn't tight but I feel he does need it as he is cheeky and knows the jumping job too well. Tbh i put suits him he's happy in it and it's ideal for my working hunter classes.

I school him in a cavesson without the flash. He is still a work in progress at the moment but he's coming on loads. He couldn't hold himself when working he would rely on you to hold him up. My instructor has been fantastic and it's amazing how well he's come on in a short space of time. He lacks confidence in the school but jumping he's the opposite.


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## stencilface (28 October 2014)

I haven't regularly ridden with a noseband in a few years, sometimes put one on for looks if I'm competing, but only loosely.

I cringed when an eventer cranked a friends horses flash and cavesson so tight before the dressage to make the horse yield. As a mere amateur I didn't point out that tension just breeds tension when forced, not the opposite. So her already tense in the dressage horse just became worse. She has since stopped talking advice from this friend ( a young rider) and I'm so glad, she spouted utter rubbish, and honestly was quite a stupid 20 year old!


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## Tern (28 October 2014)

JFTD - You do make me laugh. 

My mare is ridden in a cavesson with flash attachment although took the flash off once I found a bit she liked (Korsteel Flexi Full Cheek) and then for cross country she is in a pelham happy mouth ridden with two reins and I could possibly be putting a grackle.. main reasons as she gets gobby and excited in a snaffle and tends not to want to slow when galloping.


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## JGC (29 October 2014)

My current horse was a horse I knew three years ago, before his last owner bought him. In the two years she had him he got a permanent dent on his nose and when my vet vetted him, he pressed behind the ears around the TM joint and my poor boy reared up in the crossties. You can do some serious damage with a crank and double. I rode him for a while in a hackamore, then in a flash, then a Micklem, then a Dyon, but he's happiest in a drop. The vet suggests that, given K's problem, he's better with a snug noseband of some sort, as he can relax his jaw against it. I can still fit my hands down the side of it (and he can still open his mouth if he so desires!), so I wouldn't call it tight, but I wouldn't call it loose either, as he isn't as happy in a loose noseband.


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## Goldenstar (29 October 2014)

Some horses are defiantly happier with some sort of noseband on and some are best with something that shuts the mouth .
I tried J ( the one with the jaw issue ) with no noseband he was not happy he prefers to wear a cavesson .
I always aim to hunt with cavessons all the four we have now have cavessons , I think it's a long day to have your mouth tied shut but you have to be flexible and do what optimal for each horse .


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## MagicMelon (29 October 2014)

Mine are all in cavessons.  I used to ride in a flash as a kid (just because its seems to be default due to most bridles coming with the blasted things!) but never liked the idea so all mine have been in cavessons for some time including for eventing and BS.  I find them pointless if I'm honest and feel all they do is mask a problem. And dont get me started on everyone wearing martingales which IMO is the same issue. Why is the default a martingale and a flash?  

I also get really peeved at trying to find a nice bridles (looking as we speak) which does NOT have a flash loop on the noseband. If it doesn't then its normally a blingy dressage one which I also dont want (and hate cranks!). I'd ride without a noseband if I could (and it didn't look so odd) but sadly competition rules state we have to which again I find odd as a cavesson doesn't actually DO anything!


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## stencilface (29 October 2014)

I don't get why people like flashes, martingales and additional tack too, its just more to clean surely?!


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## viola (29 October 2014)

I wrote a long post about it on my blog in Feb this year so I have copied it here in case anyone wanted to read  

"Why are we so obsessed with a closed mouth? Could it be because an opened mouth clearly shows all shortcomings in the training? Or perhaps because we fear lack of control? Maybe because our mark for submission will hit rock bottom if our horse plays Ed the Talking Horse throughout our dressage test?

With the hip bone connected
to the back bone,
and the back bone connected
to the neck bone,
and the neck bone connected
to the head bone,
Oh mercy how they scare!

James Weldon Johnson

I want to share my views with you but please don't treat it as a should, ought to do this way type of post. I would like to invite you to explore this issue with me, let's be open minded together (no pun intended here).







*Symptoms vs Causes*

Teeth issues aside, the way I see it, a horse that continuously or intermittently works with his mouth open or a tongue out or wriggled over the bit is communicating that the work is either too difficult, too stressful, too uncomfortable or simply painful. If we tighten our nosebands and punch additional holes in our flashes, to me, it's like trying to cure an upper respiratory infection by taping the coughing person's mouth shut. Or holding sneezing person's nose shut (apparently, sneezing is the closest we ever come to death caused by own body functions since all our breathing apparatus shuts so please don't fiddle with sneezing at home*).

Strapping the horse's mouth shut is simply fighting the symptom of something we might have no time or inclination to work on.

Symptoms can be positive too..For example, calm and content submission (perhaps cooperation would be a better word) is a symptom of good, structured, progressive training. Not something "to work on" per se...What's your take on this?







Not all issues we have with our horse's mouth come from current training. Many a time I go to teach someone with a new-ish horse who is said to "have always been like this". Large number of grassroots horses have some issues with their mouths because they have various physical issues that were skipped on, not worked on and continue to not be worked on. Similarly, ex-racehorses have variety of mouth behaviours more or less severe depending on their early training. 

I find the best way to deal with the issue, as with many others, is to first of all, detach oneself from the horse's problem enough as to be able to look at the situation from "the outside" and not take horse's reactions personally (as many riders do).

*Look from the Outside*

Have you ever seen a bi-laterally supple, poll supple, elastic horse moving with lovely throughness that works with an open, tense mouth? I personally never have. "Mouthiness" can mean many things:

- I'm only learning

- I'm still unsure of the metal on my tongue

- my poll is tight

- I am not ready for this movement

- I am stressed about what you are about to do

- my poll is twisted the other way, can't you see?

- your direct rein is too strong, you are pulling me back

- your seat makes me unbalanced so I have to use my neck to help me and so my neck muscles tense and so my sternocephalicus muscle opens my mouth...

- my muscles are contracted on this side so when you pull I want to resist the discomfort I feel

- I'm on the forehand and losing my balance so I am getting worried

- I am scared

- I don't understand

- I hate the bit pressure on my tongue

There are some fantastically athletic horses with not a dot of pain in their bodies that do have "mouth issues". If you have a horse like that, it's the natural body asymmetry that is often the issue.

*Assessing the situation*

Be a detective. Sherlock if you must. Investigate which muscles in your horse's body are not doing the work they need to be doing for a riding horse to be able to do his job without discomfort.

Be a therapist. You know these doctors or nurses who look at you like a number on their paperwork and even though they might be very good at what they do, you know very well the difference between them and the other doctor and that other nurse who seem to genuinely want you to get better? Switch that "I want to understand how to help you" attitude in your schooling and I bet you that your horse will feel the difference too...It is also helpful for those riders who are short-tempered or get frustrated easily...

Be a Trainer. Push when you need to push but recognise signs of muscular tiredness. If your giraffe impersonating horse drops his head to the ground after an hour it doesn't mean he finally understood what to do...it means his neck muscles can no loner support his longissimus dorsi (long back muscle) and although everything slacks and relaxes it's not the right time to "get to the proper schooling" but time for a pat and rest...

We can still learn a lot from military horse training...they would ride young and older "green" horses with dismounted breaks...They schooled an element but as soon as horses showed discomfort or tiredness of back or neck muscles, they would get off and walk with the horse for a few minutes so the muscles could de-contract, blood flow to them again properly. Then they would get back on and continue.

Nowadays, many instructors are taught to "not let him win", "go after him until he gives in" and so they pass this knowledge on; many riders can't feel the minute tension problems because one gadget or another, tight flash or crank noseband are effectively hiding those gentle signs the horse is giving. When little signs are missed, they escalate and become larger and larger. The horse starts shouting in his own way.

*Concentration and Connection*

Have you ever watched young kids when they try to do something very well but the activity is still fairly new to them?







Bodies and minds of all mammals (and all animals with nervous systems?) are intricately connected. We say, when a horse chews or moves its jaw a little when we work with him, that he is "thinking". Yet, we see many 4 and 5 year old horses with their mouths strapped shut. Logic?

When you look at horse's head and neck muscles and realise how tongue muscle eventually connect to front legs' muscles via neck muscles it is worth asking a question: "How much a mouth problem is really a mouth problem and how much it is a body development process"? How much of a mouth issue is our own "let's get there faster" problem? When I school a horse I always try to tighten demands on myself as a rider and trainer first, polish my seat, my hands, my arms before rising standards for the horse's work.

If you are riding and competing for pleasure and results, stay safe and adjust your tack as you think you need to but spare a thought next time you are doing up your noseband or your flash...

What about you? What are your thoughts on this? If you teach, how do you address mouth opening in your clients' horses? What do you do if you have this issue with horses you ride? 

* it's a here-say, I don't know of any proof for that claim "

Well, a bit long that was


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## stencilface (29 October 2014)

That's a fantastic post!


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## silv (30 October 2014)

great post Viola!


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## Turks (30 October 2014)

Of note, William Funnell on YouTube says most of us have the cavesson too low. It should sit just (1cm or so) below the site where the curve of the cheek meets the jaw (hope this explains - he just pointed to it!). He said its painful for the horse if you site it elsewhere and that's a very common problem. Having watched him I hoiked mine up a good hole or two


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## khalswitz (30 October 2014)

stencilface said:



			I don't get why people like flashes, martingales and additional tack too, its just more to clean surely?!
		
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I have tons of tack on my jumping bridle - cavesson and snaffle, but sheepskin on the noseband, a five point breastplate with martingale and a neck strap.

Mine KNOWS when he jumps without a martingale, as we discovered, and throws his head in the air and almost breaks my nose. With the martingale on he doesn't do anything silly, so that's why we use it.

If I didn't have to, I wouldn't - I'd rather spend less of my life tacking up/untacking/ cleaning tack...


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## Turks (30 October 2014)

I don't see what's so wrong with a running martingale as if you don't need it it doesn't do anything? I think of it as v. different to a restrictive noseband in that respect. I don't see it as a problem for the horse, just more damn tack cleaning...


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## JennBags (30 October 2014)

My RI disagrees with you Turks.  The other week he was watching how my horse reacted to the additional pressure being exerted on his mouth by the martingale attachment, so he took it off, and my horse reacted very positively to it's removal - I only had it on because it was part of the breastplate.  If your horse throws it's head up in the air (like khalswitz's does) then by all means use a running martingale, but if not, then why would you?


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## viola (30 October 2014)

silv said:



			great post Viola!
		
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Thank you


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## viola (30 October 2014)

stencilface said:



			That's a fantastic post! 

Click to expand...

Thank you!


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## Hedge_pig (30 October 2014)

Fab post Viola.

My horse came to me in a gag, flash and martingale at 5 years old. Whipped the majority off straight away (martingale took a little longer as she was using it to balance on and nearly fell over backwards in shock when I first tried to work without it!), and now she's in a snaffle, with no noseband unless we're out at stressage, when it's done up on the last hole and visibly gaping.

It infuriates me that you can compete at dressage with your horse's mouth strapped shut, mind you there are a lot of things that infuriate me about competitive dressage and that's a whole other topic!


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## viola (30 October 2014)

Thank you. I share your view on dressage tack there!  

It's amazing how much stuff and how tight we use on horses. 
I do like the appearance of a horse with a noseband though simply due to habit I think, a bridle doesn't seem complete without it to my eye. However, I see no reason for it to be of tight at all.


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## stencilface (30 October 2014)

khalswitz said:



			I have tons of tack on my jumping bridle - cavesson and snaffle, but sheepskin on the noseband, a five point breastplate with martingale and a neck strap.

Mine KNOWS when he jumps without a martingale, as we discovered, and throws his head in the air and almost breaks my nose. With the martingale on he doesn't do anything silly, so that's why we use it.

If I didn't have to, I wouldn't - I'd rather spend less of my life tacking up/untacking/ cleaning tack...
		
Click to expand...

I said additional tack, no necessary tack, no point wearing anything you don't need as you have to clean pointless stuff. You've said you need it, so wear it.



Turks said:



			I don't see what's so wrong with a running martingale as if you don't need it it doesn't do anything? I think of it as v. different to a restrictive noseband in that respect. I don't see it as a problem for the horse, just more damn tack cleaning...
		
Click to expand...

My horse would disagree, he hates running martingales.  I wore a standing martingale on him for a few months as a youngster as I think he may be part giraffe, but these days I wear a french link snaffle and a nosebandless bridle, I don't even have a tree in my saddle 

it has dawned on me that I'm somewhat of a horse hippy, my horse also no longer has shoes, but nevermind - he seems to like it!


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## Doogal (30 October 2014)

I don't use a noseband on my schooling bridle these days - if my horse is opening his mouth excessively it means he is evading and therefore I need to find out why and sort it out. I don't think a closed still jaw is that desirable anyway as there is probably tension. Ideally I want him to chew softly in response to a rein aid so I don't want him wear anything that makes him feel like he shouldn't be moving his jaw.

I have a loose flat hunter cavesson for competitions.


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## burtie (30 October 2014)

Having loose nosebands is a bit of a passion of mine, if I made the rules then everyone should have to compete nosebandless! 

I'd be interested in any comments on my horse! This photo is him in his loose caveson, at trot in a competition (at home we don't bother with the noseband often) I find it interesting that his mouth is always slightly open!


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## stencilface (30 October 2014)

I also think it's wrong that you get marked down for having an open mouth don't you? I can see if it's a result of tensions being marked down, but if the horse is otherwise perfect it should be accepted IMHO.

I realised my horse might open his mouth, he was rarely evading unless I was asking too much.


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## Moya_999 (30 October 2014)

khalswitz said:



			I wear one  .
		
Click to expand...

 Do you find its hard to talk wearing one??? bet hubbies would get an idea from this. lol If their wife or G/F talks to much he will  put a nose band on her to keep mouth shut lol.


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## Turks (30 October 2014)

JennBags said:



			My RI disagrees with you Turks.  The other week he was watching how my horse reacted to the additional pressure being exerted on his mouth by the martingale attachment, so he took it off, and my horse reacted very positively to it's removal - I only had it on because it was part of the breastplate.  If your horse throws it's head up in the air (like khalswitz's does) then by all means use a running martingale, but if not, then why would you?
		
Click to expand...

Thanks JB. I use a running martingale as my youngster has been known to stick his head up in the air if he gets overexcited so its my safety net! I hoped that it wouldn't do anything (other than offer a neck strap) for the times when his head wasn't sky-high. Are you talking about a correctly fitted running martingale? I can't see how it does anything at all if not needed. Am I missing something here?

I'm of the opinion that less is more and certainly aim to reduce but I want to stay in control in the meantime


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## Turks (30 October 2014)

Turks said:



			Thanks JB. I use a running martingale as my youngster has been known to stick his head up in the air if he gets overexcited so its my safety net! I hoped that it wouldn't do anything (other than offer a neck strap) for the times when his head wasn't sky-high. Are you talking about a correctly fitted running martingale? I can't see how it does anything at all if not needed. Am I missing something here?

I'm of the opinion that less is more and certainly aim to reduce but I want to stay in control in the meantime

Click to expand...

Stencilface - Think the question goes to you too. I always consider a standing to be more restrictive than a running?


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## stencilface (30 October 2014)

Not if fitted correctly IMHO, the pressure goes onto the nose, and doesn't affect the contact in the mouth. This means the horse doesn't get uncomfortable jabs and lose confidence in the contact (horse dependant I would think, many horses don't mind, mine hated it)

I think the duller pressure on the nose, compared to sharp pressure in the mouth (I would imagine!) makes the lesson of not putting the head up easier to learn. They are fine to jump in too (again, fitted correctly!)


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## Elf On A Shelf (30 October 2014)

Gray has always had tongue issues. Starting out as a 2yo in training in America. No idea why they had a flash on him, I guess he was vastly different when he was younger to when I galloped him as a 5-7yo.







Carrying on as a 7yo. We run everything in a grackle - the idea being that the horse shouldn't be able to open the mouth wide enough to get the tongue back and choke on it.







As a 9yo in a completely different career with a noseband done up with 2 fingers width to spare.







He always has it out to the right. Never, ever the left. I do wonder why sometimes.


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## Hedge_pig (31 October 2014)

Turks I think what JB is referring to is 'noise' created down the rein via the (running) martingale attachment, in my opinion it can muddle and dull the rein aids. For e.g. in the trot the rings will bounce up and down slightly and transmit downwards pressure, it's just gravity, which then dulls the sensitivity of the mouth to tiny aids. If there's constantly movement there it switches them off. I found when I took my martingale off, I was able to get what I wanted using the tiniest of aids, whereas previously they'd had to be much 'louder'.

Fwiw, I'm also a horse hippy, my horse has no noseband, snaffle, no shoes and a loooong mane and tail, despite not being a native, or Iberian. I think she looks pretty, I don't care what she's 'supposed' to look like .


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## stencilface (31 October 2014)

Hedge_pig said:



			Fwiw, I'm also a horse hippy, my horse has no noseband, snaffle, no shoes and a loooong mane and tail, despite not being a native, or Iberian. I think she looks pretty, I don't care what she's 'supposed' to look like .
		
Click to expand...

Well honestly, mine is half Iberian at least, although I do keep his mane short, long just looks straggly and awful....


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## dark rider (31 October 2014)

Lovely post Viola.  Lots of things to think about.
I have a horse who has never been happy in his mouth.  When I get him on the bit he opens his mouth a lot and is marked down for it.  I tried strapping his mouth shut very briefly - he refused to go forward at all until I had undone it.  1 - 0 to the horse I think.
I am sure that the reason he opens his mouth is that somewhere something is wrong.  I could strap his mouth shut and force him to obey and ignore the fact that I am doing something wrong.  But I have decided to leave him alone and just take the penalty points.  After all, he does not open his mouth when jumping and his head is in the air!
He is telling me something, so I am listening.  PS it is not teeth or back, so I suspect he just finds it very hard to do


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## dark rider (31 October 2014)

Lovely post Viola.  Lots of things to think about.
I have a horse who has never been happy in his mouth.  When I get him on the bit he opens his mouth a lot and is marked down for it.  I tried strapping his mouth shut very briefly - he refused to go forward at all until I had undone it.  1 - 0 to the horse I think.
I am sure that the reason he opens his mouth is that somewhere something is wrong.  I could strap his mouth shut and force him to obey and ignore the fact that I am doing something wrong.  But I have decided to leave him alone and just take the penalty points.  After all, he does not open his mouth when jumping and his head is in the air!
He is telling me something, so I am listening.  PS it is not teeth or back, so I suspect he just finds it very hard to do


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## Kati*89 (31 October 2014)

I have one in a cavesson, not tight just correctly fitted and its right for him....we did get a few comments in dressage about open mouth, so I tried a flash(I know, I know) anyway he was horrid in it, we lost the contact completely! So we have had to work through it correctly anyway! I am not sure I like the look of without a noseband if I am honest, and anyway I wouldn't be able to compete like that.
Last year I also struggled to find a nice bridle with a cavesson(no crank) for dressage also, I got one from English Bridles, lovely leather, shaped headpiece and padded noseband - really pleased. I have just upgraded to one with patent noseband from Evision for anyone that is looking(they do white padding too) it is a crank, but it won't be used as such.


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## viola (31 October 2014)

Thank you dark rider!

The horse pictured at the top photo of my post belongs to someone who takes clinics with me and it was taken after I removed his flash and loosened his noseband. He trotted with this false bend and gaping mouth even on loose rein. Now, 1.5 years later of consistent in-hand work and genuine schooling for better movement, he can manage decent schooling session without opening his mouth for 50% of the time. His owner has never put the flash back on again and is continuing to work towards his comfort. It's tricky with horses that were forced to shut their mouth for a long time but great to read you are trying too


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## puli (1 November 2014)

I don't really see the point in using nosebands, unless you use a flash. I don't use one with my mare she is the same with one on as she is with out one on so I just thought I may as well take it off. I also think my mare looks better without a noseband


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## spookypony (1 November 2014)

When I first got the Spooky Pony, I bought him a normal cavesson bridle, without flash attachment (was not easy to find one!), mainly because I'd never used anything other than a cavesson or possibly a drop, and didn't see a reason to start. It turned out the noseband was way too long without making extra holes (came too far down his face), because he's pretty much halfway between pony and cob size, so I simply left the noseband off. I have pics of us hunting without a nose band; though he was excited, it's never made any difference for brakes. The only reason I found someone with a hole-punch and started using the nose-band was because I wanted to do dressage tests. Now, I'm too lazy to take it off again. His endurance combination bridle is a head-collar + snaffle headstall, which is what I'm given to understand was the thinking behind a cavesson in the first place (being a halter + bridle combo). At a Vet Gate, the snaffle part clips off, leaving him with the head-collar so that he can go to the vetting. It saves valuable time over taking a bridle off and putting a head-collar on.


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## Tnavas (2 November 2014)

For a start people need to get over the idea of nosebands FORCING the mouth shu.

A correctly fitted noseband allows the horse to relax its jaw which involves holding its teeth apart. It does not force the mouth shut.

Two fingers between horse and straps allow this to happen.

I break all mine with a Fulmer and drop. The reason being I don't want the horse that he can open his mouth wide, drop the bit and learn to evade.

To date all mine have gone on to be ridden in a single jointed Eggbutt and cavesson noseband.

I've found many horses go well without the flash strap. Here in NZ people are keen on Show Hunter where a lower strap is not permitted, they then find that their horse works fine without the flash strap.


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## Tnavas (2 November 2014)

Turks said:



			Of note, William Funnell on YouTube says most of us have the cavesson too low. It should sit just (1cm or so) below the site where the curve of the cheek meets the jaw (hope this explains - he just pointed to it!). He said its painful for the horse if you site it elsewhere and that's a very common problem. Having watched him I hoiked mine up a good hole or two 

Click to expand...


He's right, two fingers below the projecting cheek bone is the correct placing for the Cavesson.

A lot of people have their bit way too high as well. Often because it's too wide and double jointed so it flops down lower in the horses mouth.

Just a small wrinkle is fine with the right width bit. 

Running martingale  SI hate, they have too much influence on the angle of the bit when they come in to play, downward pressure on the bit changes it's alignment forcing the joints into the roof of the mouth

I teach all mine, and school at home in a Standing for jumping. Only socks the horse on the nose when it throws it's head up. No constant nagging on the rein.


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## cptrayes (2 November 2014)

I would like to see BD ban all mouth closing nosebands, I don't understand why they are allowed.  i take advantage of one sometimes if I think the horse is likely to try to evade in the additional stress of competition.


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## Tnavas (2 November 2014)

cptrayes said:



			I would like to see BD ban all mouth closing nosebands, I don't understand why they are allowed.  i take advantage of one sometimes if I think the horse is likely to try to evade in the additional stress of competition.
		
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So agree with you. Dressage is supposed to be about quality training, acceptance of the bridle being one of the most important parts, yet fast tracking schooling has put paid to that and the noseband hides the resistances


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## Twiglet (3 November 2014)

When you look at horse's head and neck muscles and realise how tongue muscle eventually connect to front legs' muscles via neck muscles it is worth asking a question: "How much a mouth problem is really a mouth problem and how much it is a body development process"? How much of a mouth issue is our own "let's get there faster" problem? When I school a horse I always try to tighten demands on myself as a rider and trainer first, polish my seat, my hands, my arms before rising standards for the horse's work.

[/QUOTE]

Brilliant post Viola, and not just on the noseband issue!

I'm currently dealing with the after-effects of major jaw issues, and can't believe how intrinsically everything is linked, and how key the jaw/jaw motion and poll are to the whole body. A disjointed chew, combined with muscle issue and pain in the jaw joint, translate to major poll issues - which affect basically the whole body. 
Seeing the tightness and soreness points in my gelding caused by the poll being offset and tight, there literally isn't a part of his body that isn't affected - from the obviously stiff neck and inability to build topline, through to tension in the back, the hindlegs being unable to step under so ensuring muscle can't develop in the back end, weakening the back further, letting the abdominals drop....it's such an all encompassing issue. 
So to those who strap a tense or moving mouth shut with a flash (and I share the frustration about bridles not being sold without them! and the amount of instructors who've told me to use them...), find out first what that is doing to the rest of the horse....


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## Art Nouveau (3 November 2014)

I've looking for a new share at the moment and am frustrated at how many (all) of them wear a flash. Most have it loose enough to allow some chewing/jaw movement though, would that make it pointless? I don't like to get into a discussion about why their horse is wearing a flash though when it's the first time I've met them. Perhaps I'm just being too british and should go on a crusade...


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## viola (3 November 2014)

Twiglet said:



			When you look at horse's head and neck muscles and realise how tongue muscle eventually connect to front legs' muscles via neck muscles it is worth asking a question: "How much a mouth problem is really a mouth problem and how much it is a body development process"? How much of a mouth issue is our own "let's get there faster" problem? When I school a horse I always try to tighten demands on myself as a rider and trainer first, polish my seat, my hands, my arms before rising standards for the horse's work.
		
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Brilliant post Viola, and not just on the noseband issue!



Twiglet said:



			I'm currently dealing with the after-effects of major jaw issues, and can't believe how intrinsically everything is linked, and how key the jaw/jaw motion and poll are to the whole body. A disjointed chew, combined with muscle issue and pain in the jaw joint, translate to major poll issues - which affect basically the whole body. 
Seeing the tightness and soreness points in my gelding caused by the poll being offset and tight, there literally isn't a part of his body that isn't affected - from the obviously stiff neck and inability to build topline, through to tension in the back, the hindlegs being unable to step under so ensuring muscle can't develop in the back end, weakening the back further, letting the abdominals drop....it's such an all encompassing issue. 
So to those who strap a tense or moving mouth shut with a flash (and I share the frustration about bridles not being sold without them! and the amount of instructors who've told me to use them...), find out first what that is doing to the rest of the horse....
		
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Thank you Twiglet  Good luck with your boy!


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## viola (3 November 2014)

ENock said:



			I've looking for a new share at the moment and am frustrated at how many (all) of them wear a flash. Most have it loose enough to allow some chewing/jaw movement though, would that make it pointless? I don't like to get into a discussion about why their horse is wearing a flash though when it's the first time I've met them. Perhaps I'm just being too british and should go on a crusade...
		
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Haha go for it! When I teach at clinics and see tight flashes/draw reins etc I never alter anyone's tack but always ask many,many,many questions until the owner wants to alter the tack themselves


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## stencilface (3 November 2014)

Twiglet said:



			I'm currently dealing with the after-effects of major jaw issues, and can't believe how intrinsically everything is linked, and how key the jaw/jaw motion and poll are to the whole body. A disjointed chew, combined with muscle issue and pain in the jaw joint, translate to major poll issues - which affect basically the whole body. 
Seeing the tightness and soreness points in my gelding caused by the poll being offset and tight, there literally isn't a part of his body that isn't affected - from the obviously stiff neck and inability to build topline, through to tension in the back, the hindlegs being unable to step under so ensuring muscle can't develop in the back end, weakening the back further, letting the abdominals drop....it's such an all encompassing issue. 
So to those who strap a tense or moving mouth shut with a flash (and I share the frustration about bridles not being sold without them! and the amount of instructors who've told me to use them...), find out first what that is doing to the rest of the horse....
		
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This is interesting. I had my horses wolf teeth removed this year, they were flush against his teeth and didn't obviously cause any problems, no rearing etc, horse is 14. Two EDTs recommended they be removed even though the vet wasn't convinced it would make any difference to his way of going. But then one EDT said if he avoided a certain pressure in his mouth, it would affect his poll, neck, and everything behind that. Now, I'm not a good enough rider to notice I don't think, plus I don't have regular lessons or do any schooling (time poor and horse has had lots of lameness so I'm loathe to do lots of circles, at least til he's sound for a whole year!). But thinking about it, when I ask for some shoulder in and leg yield out hacking, he does seem to actually yield, as opposed to tensing and throwing his head up, which may be due to him being more comfortable in his mouth. Hadn't even though about it!


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## Twiglet (4 November 2014)

stencilface said:



			This is interesting. I had my horses wolf teeth removed this year, they were flush against his teeth and didn't obviously cause any problems, no rearing etc, horse is 14. Two EDTs recommended they be removed even though the vet wasn't convinced it would make any difference to his way of going. But then one EDT said if he avoided a certain pressure in his mouth, it would affect his poll, neck, and everything behind that. Now, I'm not a good enough rider to notice I don't think, plus I don't have regular lessons or do any schooling (time poor and horse has had lots of lameness so I'm loathe to do lots of circles, at least til he's sound for a whole year!). But thinking about it, when I ask for some shoulder in and leg yield out hacking, he does seem to actually yield, as opposed to tensing and throwing his head up, which may be due to him being more comfortable in his mouth. Hadn't even though about it! 

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I wouldn't have considered it either, but the implications are huge. The poll itself is such a centre for tension and discomfort, and any disruption in the mouth translates directly there. I have to admit to being a bit lax with 6 monthly EDT appointments prior to Buzz's issues but there are certain elements of his training and schooling that now make sense and pointed to a jaw developing issues. 

This is a very interesting article, and well worth a read - it was a lightbulb moment for me: http://www.naturalhorse.com/archive/volume3/Issue4/article_4.php 
Am currently treating him with weekly chiro, biweekly Bowen and craniosacral treatments.


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## smurfywurf (5 November 2014)

Our 12hh section A has a flash but it's not on tight, he produces plenty of dribble and slobber when he works, even hacking so I know his jaw is relaxed and he's working happily and correctly


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## Tnavas (5 November 2014)

smurfywurf said:



			Our 12hh section A has a flash but it's not on tight, he produces plenty of dribble and slobber when he works, even hacking so I know his jaw is relaxed and he's working happily and correctly 

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Lots of slobber and dribble is no longer believed to be the sign of a relaxed horse but of one unable to swallow.


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## stencilface (5 November 2014)

I've never got the slobber and dribble argument either, surely you can tell a relaxed and happy horse by more than whats coming out of their mouth?


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## smurfywurf (5 November 2014)

Tnavas said:



			Lots of slobber and dribble is no longer believed to be the sign of a relaxed horse but of one unable to swallow.
		
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Oh he can definitely swallow fine.... Typical pony sneaks mouthfuls of grass if he thinks he can  
He's definitely relaxed as well, he's lovely and supple through his neck, back and tail and bends beautifully, he's excelling at dressage at the moment. My dressage instructor always envys his suppleness and his helicopter tail as she calls it. 
I don't think a correctly fitted noseband should interfere with the horses way of going, I see so many wrongly fitted though to the point I want to go and take the horse off the owner, it's so sad when people clamp mouths shut and weigh them down with bits and martingales to try and solve a problem quickly rather than going back to basics and finding out the cause of a problem


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## smurfywurf (5 November 2014)

Having said that I rarely tend to ride him with the flash, I only put it on him when the girls (age 4 and 11 and novice) are on him as he takes full advantage of them both being newbies and will open his mouth and walk off with them (nothing more) he's had his teeth and back checked and the dentist and vet have both said there's nothing wring, he's simply being the cheeky pony that he's supposed to be


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## mrswad (10 November 2014)

I and my horse like a plain cavesson loose enough to just get your hand under it. There is so much rubbish about padded pressure relief bridles and really all you have to do is check the browband isn't pulling the headpiece into the base of the ears and adjust the bit so it doesn't look like you're using it to extend the horses mouth upwards. I've seen horses with permanent grooves in their nasal bones as their jaws have been strapped together so tightly. It's abuse.


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## Equi (10 November 2014)

Mines on the loosest hole and is there purely for decoration (my mares head looks FAR too large and long if she hasn't got one)

If a horse need sit mouth taped shut it is not happy in the bit it has.


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