# How much is this filly worth?



## Bearskin (28 May 2012)

http://www.britanniasjewel.com/

I think we could learn a lot from the Frederick's marketing methods.  If only we all had a mare like Brit! (Of course magic would probably advise us not to breed from her, due to her less than perfect conformation.  I wonder how she would grade with SHB?)


----------



## Nicnac (28 May 2012)

Well, the fact that she comes with free insurance for a month up to a value of £30,000 should give you an idea of the estimated value


----------



## maggiehorse (29 May 2012)

nice breeding but a rather ordinary filly in my eyes


----------



## eventrider23 (29 May 2012)

Let's not forget though that Brit is not the easiest of mares and certainly wouldn't have been likely to have become the horse she is in just anyone's hands.  Not saying the filly or any of her foals won't be amazing as they probably will be especially as they will have the best possible starts but remember back to fact that the reason Cinda kept the ride on her was because they were never able to sell her....something that proved propitious for her and her career but could mean that her progeny may well end up pros horses.


----------



## Amymay (29 May 2012)

maggiehorse said:



			nice breeding but a rather ordinary filly in my eyes
		
Click to expand...

Well, yes I though that too.

But she moves beautifully - and I suspect will turn in to a very handsome mare.


----------



## micramadam (29 May 2012)

Sorry to say but she hasn't got the WOW factor for me and as for her paces I've seen a lot cheaper yearlings with much better paces.
They will get a decent price for her because of who they are and what her breeding is.


----------



## sallyf (29 May 2012)

I dont think she could be any straighter through the hock and agree movement doesnt look anything special she walks quite stilted through her shoulders.
Still handsome is as handsome does so hopefully in 3 years times she will be able to show how good she is or not as the case may be


----------



## Bearskin (29 May 2012)

eventrider23 said:



			Let's not forget though that Brit is not the easiest of mares and certainly wouldn't have been likely to have become the horse she is in just anyone's hands.  Not saying the filly or any of her foals won't be amazing as they probably will be especially as they will have the best possible starts but remember back to fact that the reason Cinda kept the ride on her was because they were never able to sell her....something that proved propitious for her and her career but could mean that her progeny may well end up pros horses.
		
Click to expand...

Being a small chestnut mare with odd feet probably did not help with her sale.  Her temperament is what made her so good.


----------



## stolensilver (29 May 2012)

I wish them every success with selling this filly to a serious competition home. 

If I were judging her without knowing her parents I'd be underwhelmed. Its always a red flag to me when trot is shown in slow motion in a selling video. If you watch for overtrack she simply doesn't. And if I can borrow a quote from Tom Reed's excellent article "Keeping Trakehners on Track" he says "it makes no sense to use a dressage-bred stallion with little "blood" in his pedigree (such as Grafenstolz TSF), that happened to be successful in eventing". To put the quote in context he is talking about getting Trakehners and their offspring back to the top in jumping sports.

http://www.morningside-stud.com/gpage3.html

IMHO they should have used Schenkendorf. Much less advertised but the only approved son of the Olympic gold medallist showjumper Topki in Europe. But hey, what do I know? Lets hope she's galloping round Badminton in 7-10 years time and proving me totally wrong.


----------



## christine48 (29 May 2012)

Interestingly they had 'Little Brittania' going HC in the YEH at Houghton ( think she was HC because she was ridden in a hackemore). She didn't look exceptional especially considering how much her and her full brother were syndicated for previously. 
Wish them luck, but there's no guarantee she'll be as good as her parents as we all know.


----------



## seabsicuit2 (29 May 2012)

eventrider23 said:



			Let's not forget though that Brit is not the easiest of mares and certainly wouldn't have been likely to have become the horse she is in just anyone's hands.  Not saying the filly or any of her foals won't be amazing as they probably will be especially as they will have the best possible starts but remember back to fact that the reason Cinda kept the ride on her was because they were never able to sell her....something that proved propitious for her and her career but could mean that her progeny may well end up pros horses.
		
Click to expand...

Brit was produced by an amateur, 2 horse rider up to Advanced level with relative ease before Lucinda took the ride on. She didnt sell because she looked small and ordinary and they always wanted a huge amount of money for her, and no-one believed that she justified that kind of price tag!

I just think Jumbo throws all sorts of funny looking horses that is the Irish/unknown blood in him. And Grafenstolz was bred to be a dressage horse not an eventer/jumper- his pedigree is generations of dressage horses. 

Not to take anything away from what either of these stallions have achieved!

Stolensilver- cant find much info online-has schkenhendorf(sp) got any decent damline has he achieved anything himself?

Personally I think I decent upstanding TB stallion would have been the best husband for Brit!


----------



## wynter (29 May 2012)

I think a nice TB would of been better aswell.
She is nice but she doesn't jump out at you and scream "buy me" if you know what mean.


----------



## eventrider23 (29 May 2012)

Will be interesting to see what she has this year to their TB stallion Mr Big Cat...


----------



## Alec Swan (30 May 2012)

The foal,  I rather like.  I'll agree with those who think that she's a bit short in her stride,  but then that wouldn't worry me too much,  at her age,  and considering that she was really just shuffling about.  I'm not experienced enough to judge foals,  so my opinions are probably of little real worth.

I undertand enough about marketing when I see promotion,  and there would be underlying questions to ask,  "Why sell the foal now?  and 'We can't keep them all' isn't the right answer",  or at least not the one to convince me that the vendors know something which we don't.  The vendors have engaged professional agents,  so the opening bid has probably been chucked in to start the proceedings.  I wish them luck!

Promoting her blood lines was a little strange too.  HB is by Jumbo,  and that's it.  There aren't really any blood lines,  at least on the mare's side,  that I can see.  Grafenstoltz and his dressage breeding?  If he can jump,  which he can,  and if he can gallop,  which he can,  then accepting what Seabiscuit says,  just where are there the good jumping TBs?  Rather Graf than a second rate flat bred TB.  I know that others will now leap up and carry a torch for Saddlers Wells,  and his progeny,  but they are still flat bred horses,  not NH and that's what I think would be needed.

Nicnac has mentioned a perceived insurance value of £30k.  In my view,  and if that's the reserve,  then that's an awful lot of dosh for a foal,  and it's too much to risk on a foal which may not live up to its promotion.  This foal may well end up as the next King's Mistress,  and be a foundation brood mare,  and she may not.

Again,  I do like her,  but my consideration is that £7k would be more than enough but would be considered a derisory offer,  so I shall sit back and watch,  with interest.

Alec.


----------



## magic104 (30 May 2012)

Bearskin said:



http://www.britanniasjewel.com/

I think we could learn a lot from the Frederick's marketing methods.  If only we all had a mare like Brit! (Of course magic would probably advise us not to breed from her, due to her less than perfect conformation.  I wonder how she would grade with SHB?)
		
Click to expand...

Now was that necessary, no comparison when she has breeding & a competition record!  And yes if they think the offspring are upto their standards & based on her success as a sportshorse she would grade.


----------



## koeffee (30 May 2012)

They cant think much of her if they are selling her?? they have a bid at £5000 thats about £3000 more than i would pay?!


----------



## Amymay (30 May 2012)

koeffee said:



			They cant think much of her if they are selling her?? they have a bid at £5000 thats about £3000 more than i would pay?!
		
Click to expand...

They're in the business to breed and sell.  It has nothing to do with what they think of her.


----------



## the watcher (30 May 2012)

My view is that marketing is what the Fredericks do well, however I don't think this youngster is any better than dozens of others - I wouldn't pay more than £3000 based on that breeding


----------



## stolensilver (30 May 2012)

Someone asked about Schenkendorf's motherline. Its the Schwarze Schwalbe line, one of the biggest and best in the Trakehner breed. International jumpers and international dressage horses by the dozen.

http://www.horsetelex.nl/horses/family/133255


----------



## BBH (30 May 2012)

I haven't read other replys but I think her at this age rather ' stuffy'.

Her movement did nothing for me tbh and when they slowed it down on the film I felt it was to hide the movement.

Personally I wouldn't buy her at this age based on what I see there. If on the other hand she blossoms with age then fair do's although the price tag would be significantly higher.

I wish them well.


----------



## BBH (30 May 2012)

amymay said:



			They're in the business to breed and sell.  It has nothing to do with what they think of her.
		
Click to expand...

See I disagree here.

Everyone is trying to breed ' the one' and I think they have seen something they don't like because I think it unusual not to see how she progresses as a youngster.

Most competitor / breeders I have ever met want to at least see a 2 / 3 yrs old to see if it has a pop on it, movement and trainability. If after this age they don't like what they see they will sell on. Especially with her mother being  home owned, you'd think they'd be keen to see if she was sentimentally going to have the parents attributes and its not like the foal will cost anything to keep , no livery etc etc which may sway other people's decisions.


----------



## GinnieRedwings (30 May 2012)

BBH, whilst you make a good point, and when I read about the auction on the Fredericks' FB page, I immediately thought "what's wrong with her?", I believe that Headley Britannia has had about 3 foals a year (by ET) for the past 4 years, so the "sentimental" issue doesn't apply. 

Team Fredericks have also started selling Brit's embryos direct to the public, like you would stallion semen, so perhaps they just need to raise funds. 

Re: Little Britannia going HC at Houghton, I believe she injured her mouth and had to be ridden in a hackamore - which I expect is a good sign re: her temperament...


----------



## Bearskin (30 May 2012)

magic104 said:



			Now was that necessary, no comparison when she has breeding & a competition record!  And yes if they think the offspring are upto their standards & based on her success as a sportshorse she would grade.
		
Click to expand...

Sorry, was tongue in cheek.....


----------



## ihatework (30 May 2012)

There is no denying the fredericks are canny business people!!! The syndicate T&C's for the 2 x 4yo's were laughable and their valuation dubious.
The filly in question doesn't light my fire and looks pretty ordinary to me. However if she is half as gutsy as her mum then someone may end up with a cracker I suppose.


----------



## seabsicuit2 (31 May 2012)

Well Brit herself looks ordinary and small so I guess we can't expect any of her progeny to look amazing/stunning . It would all be about the temperament and heart & work ethic. 

Someone commented on brit's motherline being of no significance-this is actually untrue as Brit's full brother took a amateur rider up to 4 star level & looked after her all the way. He was stunning and probably more generous and more talented than Brit.  Just didn't end up in the right hands. 
Also the dam sire 'Alanrod' produced quite a few advanced eventers, he himself was by Gala Performance who was also the dam sire of Over To You. 

Re; why theyre selling this particular filly- the Fredericks have always had to sell everything in order to keep their show on the road. For as long as I can remember they've constantly had to sell their best horses.


----------



## vicijp (31 May 2012)

Alec Swan said:



			Promoting her blood lines was a little strange too.  HB is by Jumbo,  and that's it.  There aren't really any blood lines,  at least on the mare's side,  that I can see.  Grafenstoltz and his dressage breeding?  If he can jump,  which he can,  and if he can gallop,  which he can,  then accepting what Seabiscuit says,  just where are there the good jumping TBs?  Rather Graf than a second rate flat bred TB.  I know that others will now leap up and carry a torch for Saddlers Wells,  and his progeny,  but they are still flat bred horses,  not NH and that's what I think would be needed.Alec.
		
Click to expand...

Flying Legend. I sent a mare to him this year (her first foal is machine by Sir Harry Lewis, so wanted the Alleged), and I haven't seen such a proper stamp for a long time. Big and proper old fashoined, loads of bone and knees the like of which you don't see very often.
Personally do not rate SW, especially for soundness(wind and limb), but don't agree with generalising 'flat bred's'. There are not many examples of genuine jump bred stallions which have made a lasting mark on the breeding scene.


----------



## cruiseline (31 May 2012)

Why don't they put her on Ebay and get a wider audience!!!!

Seriously, on online auction, seems they are not worried about who she ends up with then! I am not into eventing, but I would have though if she was that special, a top rider/owner/sponsor would have already snapped her up by now. Her movement does nothing for me, so one would hope she can jump!


----------



## Amos (31 May 2012)

cruiseline said:



			Why don't they put her on Ebay and get a wider audience!!!!

Seriously, on online auction, seems they are not worried about who she ends up with then! I am not into eventing, but I would have though if she was that special, a top rider/owner/sponsor would have already snapped her up by now. Her movement does nothing for me, so one would hope she can jump!
		
Click to expand...

Surely only certain people "in the know" visit their website to see whats for sale?


----------



## tristar (31 May 2012)

maybe its time to buy some new glasses, but, she looked to me as if she moves her right front differently to her left front, in trot, moves the one further forward and higher.

the best horse i own i bought from a series of photos, as a yearling the potential was evident then  somehow, a certain carriage, a special posture, and way of moving, it was there despite the 3 inches of hair and mud.

if i had to chose between brit's foal and maesfen's tobago foal there would be no contest, tobago's!

but as has been said maybe she has inherited something that will emerge in competition, but if it was on looks and movement and for myself i would'nt  look twice.

certainly would not buy for breeding potential, have to really hit between the eyes for that!


----------



## the watcher (31 May 2012)

seabsicuit2 said:



			Re; why theyre selling this particular filly- the Fredericks have always had to sell everything in order to keep their show on the road. For as long as I can remember they've constantly had to sell their best horses.
		
Click to expand...

That may well be true of Lucinda, but Clayton has been very well sponsored and funded for a very long time..underneath all that bonhomie is a very sharp businessman


----------



## christine48 (31 May 2012)

I expect there will be some people swept along with the hype of owning a HB foal and pay silly money expecting to get a superstar. She herself is a bit of a freak in the nicest possible way. Her bloodlines are slightly unorthodox and she's small. Graf hasn't thrown anything proven up to now, yet the first 2 now 4 yr olds were syndicated for a ridiculous total amount.


----------



## Asha (31 May 2012)

I really dont understand what the fuss is about.

The Fredericks have bred plenty of foals, and they have decided to sell one, and are selling via an online auction, trying to get as much as a return as possible. 

I dont see it being much different than going to Brightwells 

The fact that the starting bid is £5k, in my mind shows that she will end up at a professional home

Videos dont give a true reflection of any horse let alone a foal, before judging suggest people see her in the flesh. 

If i could spare £5k for a foal by HB and I was a half decent eventer, would I buy her , you bet I would. Not that much of a risk in the scheme of things.

Good luck to them I say.


----------



## Bedlam (1 June 2012)

I know there is currently huge debate about the value of the futurity and other youngstock evaluation methods, but I would like to see how her offspring do at futurity and in classes like the in hand classes at osberton if I'm honest. I watch the marketing with interest - my mare is by Jumbo but has better breeding in the generations before and has done very well at futurity and in hand. At only 3 she obviously needs to prove herself under saddle and has a very very long way to go before being anywhere near as proven as HB, but I think I'd be more inclined to back her financially right now than the filly that I just watched on that video........


----------



## eventrider23 (1 June 2012)

I highly doubt the Fredericks would present her progeny to there futurity - yet at least - I know we say the futurity doesn't affect the value of our youngsters by and large and to an extent this is true as less people in the general public recognize it but with a mare like HB the evaluation would be more public than that of Farouche's progeny and would be noted in every magazine/publication and forum.  Bearing that in mind imagine then if the foals/youngstock didn't do well?  Given who she is it is a 'given' and understandable belief that her youngsters would go at least 1st Premium and preferably Higher or Elite BUT imagine if it got a 2nd or 3rd?  Not that they would get that but I can see that in the interest of something so high profile bred it would be a safer bet to not present them to anything and then when older prove their worth (or not) under saddle.


----------



## Partoow (1 June 2012)

its a nice enough filly , strongly built, straight moving infront but not really athletic or free enough through the shoulder.Good balance/proportion to the frame , neck could be a little better set but good head to neck connection.
The lack of shoulder freedom may be due to the fact that she is high behind, but she has very high up hocks so its likely that she wont change drastically in the freedom in front.
Seems a pretty bold and bright filly. I agree with most she's nice rather than wow.
At this age,yearling you are buying potential, hence the crazy prices that TB's get at the yearling sales  based purely on their bloodlines.
Goodluck to the Fredricks think they're very clever and i hope the filly goes somewhere nice where she can maximise her potential


----------



## htobago (2 June 2012)

seabsicuit2 said:



			Well Brit herself looks ordinary and small so I guess we can't expect any of her progeny to look amazing/stunning . It would all be about the temperament and heart & work ethic. 

Someone commented on brit's motherline being of no significance-this is actually untrue as Brit's full brother took a amateur rider up to 4 star level & looked after her all the way. He was stunning and probably more generous and more talented than Brit.  Just didn't end up in the right hands. 
Also the dam sire 'Alanrod' produced quite a few advanced eventers, he himself was by Gala Performance who was also the dam sire of Over To You. 

Re; why theyre selling this particular filly- the Fredericks have always had to sell everything in order to keep their show on the road. For as long as I can remember they've constantly had to sell their best horses.
		
Click to expand...

That's interesting about Brit's damline! Do you remember the name of her 4-star full brother?


----------



## htobago (2 June 2012)

tristar said:



			maybe its time to buy some new glasses, but, she looked to me as if she moves her right front differently to her left front, in trot, moves the one further forward and higher.

the best horse i own i bought from a series of photos, as a yearling the potential was evident then  somehow, a certain carriage, a special posture, and way of moving, it was there despite the 3 inches of hair and mud.

if i had to chose between brit's foal and maesfen's tobago foal there would be no contest, tobago's!

but as has been said maybe she has inherited something that will emerge in competition, but if it was on looks and movement and for myself i would'nt  look twice.

certainly would not buy for breeding potential, have to really hit between the eyes for that!
		
Click to expand...

Can't let your comment about Maesfen's Tobago foal pass without a thank-you! 

Re Brit's filly - and the fact that if one didn't know her dam one would be rather underwhelmed by her - does this raise the issue of whether Futurity evaluations should be done 'blind'?


----------



## eventrider23 (2 June 2012)

htobago said:



			That's interesting about Brit's damline! Do you remember the name of her 4-star full brother?
		
Click to expand...

I think that would be Headley Kingdom...


----------



## stoneybroke (2 June 2012)

eventrider23 said:



			I highly doubt the Fredericks would present her progeny to there futurity - yet at least - I know we say the futurity doesn't affect the value of our youngsters by and large and to an extent this is true as less people in the general public recognize it but with a mare like HB the evaluation would be more public than that of Farouche's progeny and would be noted in every magazine/publication and forum.  Bearing that in mind imagine then if the foals/youngstock didn't do well?  Given who she is it is a 'given' and understandable belief that her youngsters would go at least 1st Premium and preferably Higher or Elite BUT imagine if it got a 2nd or 3rd?  Not that they would get that but I can see that in the interest of something so high profile bred it would be a safer bet to not present them to anything and then when older prove their worth (or not) under saddle.
		
Click to expand...

Particularly after the slating most people on here have just given the filly!


----------



## woodtiger (12 June 2012)

£11500, that's what she's worth!


----------



## Alec Swan (13 June 2012)

I suppose that that's about right.  Someone has either bought themselves a very cheap,  or a very expensive foal,  and only time will tell!! 

What is interesting though,  is the concept of the online auction.  I realise that ebay have been doing it for some time now,  but a focussed approach by online auction,  to horse sales,  may well be the way ahead.  I wonder if others agree with me.

Alec.


----------



## Maesfen (13 June 2012)

tristar said:



			if i had to chose between brit's foal and maesfen's tobago foal there would be no contest, tobago's!
		
Click to expand...

What a very nice thing to say, thank you.


----------



## christine48 (13 June 2012)

Alec Swan said:



			I suppose that that's about right.  Someone has either bought themselves a very cheap,  or a very expensive foal,  and only time will tell!! 

What is interesting though,  is the concept of the online auction.  I realise that ebay have been doing it for some time now,  but a focussed approach by online auction,  to horse sales,  may well be the way ahead.  I wonder if others agree with me.

Alec.
		
Click to expand...

If the bids were genuine!! Having been to Brightwells and seen the price of one horse go up to £30.000 without one genuine bid, I suppose I'm a bit sceptical. 
Good luck to whoever owns her and as you say time will tell as to whether she was a bargain or very expensive.


----------



## magic104 (13 June 2012)

This could be a costly experiement as I would have thought this risks devaluing the other siblings now until they are under saddle.  Does anyone know how many embryo's have been sold?


----------



## woodtiger (13 June 2012)

I am not sure how comfortable I would feel with selling a horse online via an auction. I know that you had to register first, but nevertheless how do you know who is buying it and whether they are suitable? I am sure they thought of all this though....


----------



## Alec Swan (13 June 2012)

woodtiger said:



			I am not sure how comfortable I would feel with selling a horse online via an auction. I know that you had to register first, but nevertheless how do you know who is buying it and whether they are suitable? I am sure they thought of all this though....
		
Click to expand...

On-line wouldn't be any different from any other sale,  or auction.  What ever is open to bidding will be sold to the person who wants it the most,  I suppose.

Alec.


----------



## Maesfen (13 June 2012)

Alec Swan said:



			On-line wouldn't be any different from any other sale,  or auction.  What ever is open to bidding will be sold to the person who wants it the most,  I suppose.

Alec.
		
Click to expand...

Yes Alec, but with a private sale you at least have the chance of meeting and liking - or not - the people that want to buy; with an auction it is the highest bidder and being an online one they couldn't even see the people concerned.  Just doesn't sit well with a lot of us I think.


----------



## elijahasgal (13 June 2012)

My first impression when the video opened was that I was looking at a mule!
Chunky, didnt move straight anything nicely
BUT
it is also young, and at that ugly stage, bum high so not moving its best. 
That said I wouldnt touch, and nothing about it suggests it as a great cross to me


----------



## woodtiger (13 June 2012)

Maesfen said:



			Yes Alec, but with a private sale you at least have the chance of meeting and liking - or not - the people that want to buy; with an auction it is the highest bidder and being an online one they couldn't even see the people concerned.  Just doesn't sit well with a lot of us I think.
		
Click to expand...

This is what I meant to say


----------

