# How do you know when it's just not a match made in heaven?



## TheBrokeHorse (8 April 2018)

Hi.

So I have had my mare for over a year and I am at a point where I feel hopeless. We end up going two steps forward and then ten steps back. I have tried a number of techniques to see what she likes but I am starting to think I may be the main problem. I love her to bits but I don't think the feeling is mutual and may never be. 

How does one know that their horse and them are just not a match? How do you know when it's just never going to have a happy ending? How do you know if there is hope?

I am beginning to wonder if she needs someone else, some one who can understand her in ways I probably never will. 

How do you know what is the right choice?

How do you know if it's probably best to part ways and move on?

I have never sold a horse in my life so honestly I don't know if its the right choice or not.

TIA :/


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## Theocat (8 April 2018)

What exactly is the issue? Are there behavioural problems, on the ground or under saddle? Or do you just not like the horse? Or are you waiting (sorry to be blunt) for some magical moment when the two of you become one, with a bond, and mutual love and trust? 

If It's the latter- it isn't often part of horse ownership. You'll have a relationship, but Hollywood endings happen even less often with horses than they do with human beings.

If you just don't get on, a year is enough time to be sure, and you should sell her - no point keeping an expensive horse if you aren't enjoying it. 

It is not realistic to expect your horse to love you to bits. Aim for a happy, respectful working partnership and if you get more than that it's a bonus.


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## TheBrokeHorse (8 April 2018)

Theocat said:



			What exactly is the issue? Are there behavioural problems, on the ground or under saddle? Or do you just not like the horse? Or are you waiting (sorry to be blunt) for some magical moment when the two of you become one, with a bond, and mutual love and trust? 

If It's the latter- it isn't often part of horse ownership. You'll have a relationship, but Hollywood endings happen even less often with horses than they do with human beings.

If you just don't get on, a year is enough time to be sure, and you should sell her - no point keeping an expensive horse if you aren't enjoying it. 

It is not realistic to expect your horse to love you to bits. Aim for a happy, respectful working partnership and if you get more than that it's a bonus.
		
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She can be aggressive and push. I haven't been on the saddle on her because if I can't handle her on the ground I don't know how I will handle her in the saddle. 

I am not waiting for a magical moment of bonding but a moment of eye to eye that she understands that I am here with her. 

I feel like she doesn't see me at all and I am just there to feed her and clean her and all that. It's been a year and three months and we've had some rare moments but they are so rare almost seem non existent at this point. 

I have this idea in my head that there will never be a good enough place for her with someone else but at this point I am feeling "Hey you don't want to work with me, its your loss." and it gets to me cause I don't like being cruel.


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## Theocat (9 April 2018)

TheBrokeHorse said:



			She can be aggressive and push. I haven't been on the saddle on her because if I can't handle her on the ground I don't know how I will handle her in the saddle. 

I am not waiting for a magical moment of bonding but a moment of eye to eye that she understands that I am here with her. 

I feel like she doesn't see me at all and I am just there to feed her and clean her and all that. It's been a year and three months and we've had some rare moments but they are so rare almost seem non existent at this point. 

I have this idea in my head that there will never be a good enough place for her with someone else but at this point I am feeling "Hey you don't want to work with me, its your loss." and it gets to me cause I don't like being cruel.
		
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You'll never get anything like respect or rapport if she's pushing you around, and if you haven't ridden her in a year because of it there are clearly some issues.

You need an instructor who can work with you on some basic ground work, and once you have those behaviours established you need to maintain them at every single opportunity. Then you need to start riding (assuming you want to). Establish a working partnership and then see where you are.

She's just a horse. She doesn't want to be friends with humans, and at the moment you aren't giving her any reason to respect you or pay you the slightest bit of notice - so she won't. She'll eat and poo and muck about with her mates, and at the moment you're just getting in the way of that. No horse ever understand that we clean up after them, and they are certainly never grateful for it.

I think you need to work out what you want from your relationship with horses, and make sure it's realistic, then get an instructor to help you achieve it. Horses are too expensive to make you feel miserable.


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## Red-1 (9 April 2018)

I guess you are at a crossroads where you have, I was going to say 2 options, but really there are 3.

1. Sell her and get a more docile horse.
2. Keep things as they are.
3. Realise that there is more to learn and set out to learn it.

It sounds as though you have decided against possibility 2.

I bought  mare in 2002 that was a big personality and I had to decide between option 1 and 3. I chose 3, to go learn as much as I could. I went to stay-away weeks of learning at a pro yard, clinics, heck,  even ended up with several years of travelling to America for weeks at a time to get learning. I had lessons of people who were 'unknowns' and people who were international personalities. I had help at home and away. I even got to organising clinics so I could have top training locally, including booking venues, publicity, booking flights, accommodation etc etc etc.

It wold not have been wrong at all to simply sell the horse, option 1. As a result of all the training in my option 3 I got further in my personal journey than I ever thought possible. 

It would have been wrong for me to simply do nothing as I would have ended up injured. Option 2 was out for me too! 

I guess it depends on how much you want to make it work?

From what you say, you are in a rut and can't progress. Just to sell the horse well you will need help. If there is nothing physically wrong she will sell better when back in work so people can try her.

The horse does not sound mean, the way to get a horse to be cooperative is to ask the horse to do something that he does not want to do, and then follow up until he does it. That could be leaving his mates. It could be picking up a foot. It s about starting with something where you will be strong enough to follow through. 

You need a good trainer (although finding one can be tricky) to help show you initially how to care for the horse in a productive way so you can start to take control. I would have the trainer ride the horse to start with. Lessons Lessons Lessons I am afraid. The horse going away for 6 weeks may also help, but not unless you also have lessons to find out what they are dong and shape your own progress.

As you would likely need to do this just to have her saleable I would plan 3 months of intensive training and help, then make a decision. That would be mid-June so a good time to sell. 

I have worshipped my horses, but do not expect them to love me back. I expect that they like being with me as I am fair. I expect that they look to me at times of trouble as I have proved that I will know what to do. I expect them to do as I ask as we have built up a tradition that this is what happens. Love? No.


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## Shay (9 April 2018)

Its a little more complex because you are in SA so the situation with buying / selling - and indeed with accessing training - is different.  I'm assuming this is the rising 5 yr old TB/Appie.  Not handled until she was two.  Stabled at night but kicks the stable; difficulty getting a halter on, food possessive and with possible mange - and I've never been entirely clear if she is in fact backed or not. Even if she was started you have never ridden her so she would probably have to be re-backed anyway.

If you were in the UK I would say sell her on as a project - keeping her after all this time is not a sensible option.  I would also say you will make no money at all on her - in fact you might have to pay to send her away to be professionally backed before even trying to sell.

SA is different and I don't know much about the ease of selling / re-backing etc.  There is an active and competitive horse industry in the Cape - but from your elevation I suspect you might be north of Pretoria? (Or the Drakennsberg?)  Is there a professional you could reasonably send her to?


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## Ambers Echo (9 April 2018)

Theocat said:



			You'll never get anything like respect or rapport if she's pushing you around, and if you haven't ridden her in a year because of it there are clearly some issues.

You need an instructor who can work with you on some basic ground work, and once you have those behaviours established you need to maintain them at every single opportunity. Then you need to start riding (assuming you want to). Establish a working partnership and then see where you are.

She's just a horse. She doesn't want to be friends with humans, and at the moment you aren't giving her any reason to respect you or pay you the slightest bit of notice - so she won't. She'll eat and poo and muck about with her mates, and at the moment you're just getting in the way of that. No horse ever understand that we clean up after them, and they are certainly never grateful for it.

I think you need to work out what you want from your relationship with horses, and make sure it's realistic, then get an instructor to help you achieve it. Horses are too expensive to make you feel miserable.
		
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This 1000%

You say you haven't ridden because you can't  handle her on the ground as she is aggressive and can push. Is that just during day to day handling or do you do groundwork with her? I would also not get on a horse if they did not listen and obey on the ground but there is a clear programme of work in my mind that horses go through pre-backing. Books like The Fearless Horse, or DVDs like the Buck Brannaman groundwork series are good. 

I echo the advice to get a professional out to establish if the problem is the horse being particularly resistant/difficult or if the problem is you not being clear, effective or assertive and not  showing any leadership.

I have no idea if this applies to you at all because I have only a tiny bit of information from your posts, but I have been to quite a lot of clinics and demos in what might be called the natural horsemanship tradition. (I don't call it that...) There are always people there looking for a respectful partnership with their horses. And a relationship based on trust and co-operation. That ideal is what attracts them as they think this is what 'natural horsemanship' might give them. But they come unstuck because they cannot step in and take charge and be effective when they need to show some leadership. 

Sorry if that is not relevant but your post just reminded me of the pitfalls of wanting the relationship to be sweetness and light when sometimes it just can't be because your horse needs educating in how to be around humans. ALL those 'natural horsemanship' trainers step in and take charge when they need to. Often very, VERY assertively.


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## TheBrokeHorse (9 April 2018)

Red-1 said:



			I guess you are at a crossroads where you have, I was going to say 2 options, but really there are 3.

1. Sell her and get a more docile horse.
2. Keep things as they are.
3. Realise that there is more to learn and set out to learn it.

It sounds as though you have decided against possibility 2.

I bought  mare in 2002 that was a big personality and I had to decide between option 1 and 3. I chose 3, to go learn as much as I could. I went to stay-away weeks of learning at a pro yard, clinics, heck,  even ended up with several years of travelling to America for weeks at a time to get learning. I had lessons of people who were 'unknowns' and people who were international personalities. I had help at home and away. I even got to organising clinics so I could have top training locally, including booking venues, publicity, booking flights, accommodation etc etc etc.

It wold not have been wrong at all to simply sell the horse, option 1. As a result of all the training in my option 3 I got further in my personal journey than I ever thought possible. 

It would have been wrong for me to simply do nothing as I would have ended up injured. Option 2 was out for me too! 

I guess it depends on how much you want to make it work?

From what you say, you are in a rut and can't progress. Just to sell the horse well you will need help. If there is nothing physically wrong she will sell better when back in work so people can try her.

The horse does not sound mean, the way to get a horse to be cooperative is to ask the horse to do something that he does not want to do, and then follow up until he does it. That could be leaving his mates. It could be picking up a foot. It s about starting with something where you will be strong enough to follow through. 

You need a good trainer (although finding one can be tricky) to help show you initially how to care for the horse in a productive way so you can start to take control. I would have the trainer ride the horse to start with. Lessons Lessons Lessons I am afraid. The horse going away for 6 weeks may also help, but not unless you also have lessons to find out what they are dong and shape your own progress.

As you would likely need to do this just to have her saleable I would plan 3 months of intensive training and help, then make a decision. That would be mid-June so a good time to sell. 

I have worshipped my horses, but do not expect them to love me back. I expect that they like being with me as I am fair. I expect that they look to me at times of trouble as I have proved that I will know what to do. I expect them to do as I ask as we have built up a tradition that this is what happens. Love? No.
		
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I feel like our personalities tend to clash because she has a lot of spirit but I am more calm and chilled. When I tried her out and handled her a bit, I even had to assist cause the one time I went to visit her she got caught on some fencing and she was s bit hyper but no pushy or aggressive at all. When her owner handed me a tube of calming paste I thought maybe she just stresses when traveling but I honestly think they had her on something permanantly. Her food aggression is almost gone she just pulls her ears at us if we interrupt her and with doing feet she was at first stubborn and wouldn't lift a foot at all but as the months went by she started to but went aggressive with it as well. Then she stopped the aggression and it was fine. Then suddenly she is back to being aggressive and I've made sure nothing has changed that could set her off.


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## TheBrokeHorse (9 April 2018)

Shay said:



			Its a little more complex because you are in SA so the situation with buying / selling - and indeed with accessing training - is different.  I'm assuming this is the rising 5 yr old TB/Appie.  Not handled until she was two.  Stabled at night but kicks the stable; difficulty getting a halter on, food possessive and with possible mange - and I've never been entirely clear if she is in fact backed or not. Even if she was started you have never ridden her so she would probably have to be re-backed anyway.

If you were in the UK I would say sell her on as a project - keeping her after all this time is not a sensible option.  I would also say you will make no money at all on her - in fact you might have to pay to send her away to be professionally backed before even trying to sell.

SA is different and I don't know much about the ease of selling / re-backing etc.  There is an active and competitive horse industry in the Cape - but from your elevation I suspect you might be north of Pretoria? (Or the Drakennsberg?)  Is there a professional you could reasonably send her to?
		
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The thing with the stable I believe she may be claustrophobic in that sense espicslly since most riding school keep the horses in until eight in the morning and they don't have food from around nine pm until seven in the morning if they lucky. Her mange was treated. Her food aggression is basically gone, a halter I can get on no problem now. I was told she was backed with the basics but turns out she may have only been ridden once a month if she was lucky so she's not used to the saddle at all. I rode her when I first met her and she was chilled and even had a trot but it also feels like she may have not been herself as I do believe they had been giving her something. 

I am in Pretoria. 

The only professional I would trust is booked for month of others so I would have to wait a long time till I can get her to work with my mare. 

It's very common for horses to be sold backed and unbacked. But also a lot of people are selling now because of the eceonomy and politics as many are going overseas.


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## JillA (9 April 2018)

I suspect you are looking for excuses - she will be looking to you for leadership and you are backing off finding excuses for her. It isn't about bonding or matching personalities, it is about you respecting her and her respecting you. Without being aggressive you need to calmly and consistently ensure she follows your lead - backing her up away from you with a gentle pressure on the halter is a good place to start. Quietly but persistently, and when she has got it from pressure on the halter or a hand on her chest, lighten the cues so she will do it from a work or your body language. 
And read Mark Rashid or Kelly Marks. I would suggest one of her Recommended Associates to get you on the right track but not sure if there are any in SA - you could always message the Intelligent Horsemanship site and ask if she knows anyone http://www.intelligenthorsemanship.co.uk/


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## Nasicus (11 April 2018)

TheBrokeHorse said:



			riding school keep the horses in until eight in the morning and they don't have food from around nine pm until seven in the morning if they lucky.
		
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Are you saying they don't have any kind of forage like hay etc for around 10hrs at night? I wouldn't be surprised if she had ulcers if that was the case, horses need to have food constantly moving through their guts. It would certainly explain some of the aggressive behaviour. Not sure what kind of vet diagnostics/care you have over in SA though?


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## TheBrokeHorse (11 April 2018)

Nasicus said:



			Are you saying they don't have any kind of forage like hay etc for around 10hrs at night? I wouldn't be surprised if she had ulcers if that was the case, horses need to have food constantly moving through their guts. It would certainly explain some of the aggressive behaviour. Not sure what kind of vet diagnostics/care you have over in SA though?
		
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Yes. Horses in riding schools go their entire life like that. Riding schools can't really be bothered to top up hay or water. They just go check on the horses and that's it. 

We had a vet check her out and they found no issues.


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