# Watchdog!



## BijouBabe (8 May 2013)

Apparently theres a bit about dealers, no idea on area but may be of interest to some of you. Im not trying to cause trouble !!!


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## Parachute (8 May 2013)

Thanks for the notice!!


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## BijouBabe (8 May 2013)

Seems others had the same idea too!


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## Adopter (8 May 2013)

Was alerted by Redwings that they feature in item, but in a positive way. Am waiting with interest.


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## BijouBabe (8 May 2013)

Its on now!


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## The Fuzzy Furry (8 May 2013)

on now!


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## kat2290 (8 May 2013)

Ohhh this is the same dealer that there was a 'fat horse' thread about the other day!!!


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## Parachute (8 May 2013)

Sold as a 4 year old who was actually 2.5!! Almost rolled as well!!


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## BWa (8 May 2013)

Argh, get it vetted!


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## ecb89 (8 May 2013)

It's shocking!


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## tessybear (8 May 2013)

brilliant they are finally being exposed wonder what "Kelly" has to say about this ?


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## Trinity Fox (8 May 2013)

At long last been at it for years.


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## Parachute (8 May 2013)

Oh a horse in the studio, I like that idea 
Lovely looking grey


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## ralph and maverick (8 May 2013)

Beautiful horse in the studio!!


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## Chestnutmare (8 May 2013)

How interesting


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## thewonderhorse (8 May 2013)

Why are they still riding the 2 and a half year old?  x


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## OldNag (8 May 2013)

Sounds like a nightmare dealer.

Question though: if they now know that horse is 2.5 yrs why on earth are they riding it? Poor thing.

Edit: Wonderhorse you beat me to it!!


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## TrasaM (8 May 2013)

Am sitting on my sofa cheering! At last .. Kellys Cobs gets caught out.


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## Nugget La Poneh (8 May 2013)

BWa said:



			Argh, get it vetted!
		
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This!

Unfortunate as each case is, and not to take away from the fact the whole set up is dodgy, this is why you get a horse vetted. Maybe it has been done, but seems odd not mentioned.


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## SKY (8 May 2013)

The only thing is he is only one of many bad dealers.  But glad he was named and shamed.  But would have liked  watch dog to approach him like they do sometimes.


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## Goldenstar (8 May 2013)

Do you think it will stop them ... No.
However let's hope it gives them a bad few days .


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## Parachute (8 May 2013)

Of course, why are they riding the 2.5 year old??


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## little_critter (8 May 2013)

Was wondering why the woman who wanted a "safe grown up horse" bought something described as a 4 year old for a child.


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## Nugget La Poneh (8 May 2013)

thewonderhorse said:



			Why are they still riding the 2 and a half year old?  x
		
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I was thinking this, but assumed they have had it for a while. Which makes the other issues with (like the barging etc) him a bit odd if they have had him over a period of time.

Have to admit, not heard of them before. Lets hope Watchdog provides tips for a safe sale in the future!


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## Parachute (8 May 2013)

Well they seem to be tripping themselves up, the new owners I mean..


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## FestiveFuzz (8 May 2013)

Little_Critter I wondered the same thing. Also why have none of them had the horses vetted?! 

Not excusing disreputable dealers but at the same time I would never purchase a horse without vetting.


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## galaxy (8 May 2013)

A terribly cringe worthy one sided investigation with so many flaws!!!! What a shame....  it's an item well worth doing, but that was laughable!!!


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## Parachute (8 May 2013)

galaxy said:



			A terribly cringe worthy one sided investigation with so many flaws!!!! What a shame....  it's an item well worth doing, but that was laughable!!!
		
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They had some gorgeous looking horses too! Shame they're lying about them and half of them are injured..


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## SKY (8 May 2013)

There bk on


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## Elf On A Shelf (8 May 2013)

So now we are being told that they think the horse has an injury but wont  know until you buy? Ooooooooookkkkkkk


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## Parachute (8 May 2013)

Oh, I love Loppy!!!


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## OldNag (8 May 2013)

Vetting?


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## weebarney (8 May 2013)

ahhh i want loppy, i bet he's at least 20 though!


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## tessybear (8 May 2013)

Jesus from 12-16-25  The age thing is an issue, i think a lot of novice types would buy from them as they specialize in heavy cobby types and perhaps wouldn't think to check....


I love little Loppy


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## thewonderhorse (8 May 2013)

Love loppy too! Bless her x


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## Nugget La Poneh (8 May 2013)

weebarney said:



			ahhh i want loppy, i bet he's at least 20 though!
		
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Me too!!

Love how she went from grey to bay in about 30 seconds


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## Parachute (8 May 2013)

Oh no!! Poor queenie!!


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## Mrs C (8 May 2013)

Aww bless loopy


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## Mince Pie (8 May 2013)

the state of Loppy in that paddock


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## ecb89 (8 May 2013)

Aww queenie


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## Nugget La Poneh (8 May 2013)

Think we should start the Loppy Fan club :-D


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## wildwoman666 (8 May 2013)

omg the last horse how can they get away with this. poor baby


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## Parachute (8 May 2013)

No! Don't put her down!!!


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## Marydoll (8 May 2013)

Omg thats bloody disgraceful, poor Queenie, they should be taken to the cleaners for selling her poor poor horse


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## sidsmum (8 May 2013)

Poor Queenie


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## ladyt25 (8 May 2013)

I disagree with the dodgy dealer of course but why would people buy a horse without having it vetted? Why are they palming them off to redwings though? Bit confused about the 'broken bones' on the back leg though??


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## SKY (8 May 2013)

Omg


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## Nugget La Poneh (8 May 2013)

Queenie


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## pippixox (8 May 2013)

I think somehow people get an idea in their head that if its  from a dealer it is a business so you don't need vetting- which is most definitely wrong!
people trust someone they think is a professional, it is such a shame you cant


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## Parachute (8 May 2013)

Nugget La Poneh said:



			Think we should start the Loppy Fan club :-D
		
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WE SHOULD!!!! 
I agree!!


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## FestiveFuzz (8 May 2013)

Eeek I remember looking at Queenie on their website. Poor girly!


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## Goldenstar (8 May 2013)

Poor girl at least she will get some kindness and good care until she goes.


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## ecrozier (8 May 2013)

Anyone know what the actual diagnosis for queenie is/was?


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## BWa (8 May 2013)

Feeling a bit frustrated by this, so you buy a horse, don't get it vetted, when you find out it's broken you hand it over to Redwings! Hope they have got some proper advice coming up. 
*disclaimer I did miss the bit at the start of Loopy, did they explain Redwings?


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## Polos Mum (8 May 2013)

I'm sorry but you do mostly get what you pay for - £1k from a dealer for something 100% safe for a novice - it might be possible but unlikely !! 

Oh and I totally agree with all of the above VETTING if you don't know what you're doing to be able to effectively do a vetting yourself !!


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## Queenbee (8 May 2013)

I am loving this piece by watchdog!  Fantastic to have scum exposed for what they are...

Poor Queenie  good on redwings, I know this is an excellent PR campaign for them, but good on them, so glad those girls can spend the rest of their days with them


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## ladyt25 (8 May 2013)

_Anyone know what the actual diagnosis for queenie is/was? _
No, I missed that. I thought he was maybe on about split bones but obviously not as those can be removed if needs be.


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## galaxy (8 May 2013)

Poor horses....  they clearly are not good dealers.

But the show should not be giving the impression that you can by a good alrounder suitable for a novice for £1000!!  That is SO naive!

And why are they not touching on the fact that these buyers should be taking knowledgable people with them for viewings AND a VETTING BEFORE purchase!!!  It just makes the program such a disappointment in my eyes.


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## ecrozier (8 May 2013)

I couldn't work it out - he started talking about broken bones, but then was talking about a joint collapsing?


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## Polos Mum (8 May 2013)

I assume that the BBC will be making a hefty donation to Redwings to pay for the care of both horses for the rest of their lives.  - I bl**&y well hope so anyway!!


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## mightymammoth (8 May 2013)

Queenbee said:



			I am loving this piece by watchdog!  Fantastic to have scum exposed for what they are...

Poor Queenie  good on redwings, I know this is an excellent PR campaign for them, but good on them, so glad those girls can spend the rest of their days with them
		
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agree 100% can't wait to see him confronted, vile scumbag


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## Queenbee (8 May 2013)

OldNag said:



			Sounds like a nightmare dealer.

Question though: if they now know that horse is 2.5 yrs why on earth are they riding it? Poor thing.

Edit: Wonderhorse you beat me to it!!
		
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Made me laugh when she said 'we didnt want a young horse, they told us it was four'  erm, four is a young horse.


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## Goldenstar (8 May 2013)

ecrozier said:



			Anyone know what the actual diagnosis for queenie is/was?
		
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No I think that they think the ickle viewers could Not understand a proper explanation .
Let's hope they end this piece with some proper advice so people take responsiblity for making sensible choices and get purchases vetted.


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## Nugget La Poneh (8 May 2013)

BWa said:



			Feeling a bit frustrated by this, so you buy a horse, don't get it vetted, when you find out it's broken you hand it over to Redwings! Hope they have got some proper advice coming up. 
*disclaimer I did miss the bit at the start of Loopy, did they explain Redwings?
		
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They haven't yet.

TbH, I understand Loppy going to Redwings, but if Queenie is that bad I do feel she should be PTS now, rather than stringing it out


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## Parachute (8 May 2013)

'It looks like a cow'
Must admit, I laughed!


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## ecrozier (8 May 2013)

Polos Mum I said that!


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## Queenbee (8 May 2013)

GG2B said:



			Little_Critter I wondered the same thing. Also why have none of them had the horses vetted?! 

Not excusing disreputable dealers but at the same time I would never purchase a horse without vetting.
		
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on this subject, I do think the first woman did get the horse vetted after purchase by the sounds of it, and he stated that they have x amount of days to get the horse vetted after sale.  Bit of an odd way to do it to be honest, but she clearly did consult with a vet as she said the vet was not fit for purpose and returned it.


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## horsebenny (8 May 2013)

Re the vetting, the dealer bloke said if during the 14 day trial the horse failed the vet you get your money back so I suppose the 'guarantee'....daft I know but that's the way they get punters to part with money up front...


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## Parachute (8 May 2013)

BWa said:



			Feeling a bit frustrated by this, so you buy a horse, don't get it vetted, when you find out it's broken you hand it over to Redwings! Hope they have got some proper advice coming up. 
*disclaimer I did miss the bit at the start of Loopy, did they explain Redwings?
		
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They were actors 
Redwings was just checking them but I think Queenie may be PTS.
And i'm sure they didn't get vetted to see how Kelly would sell them


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## caramel (8 May 2013)

back on now. Ha! they've been rumbled.


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## FestiveFuzz (8 May 2013)

Queenbee - yeah I realised that was their process when watchdog went to buy Loppy. Still I would have refused to hand over money until I'd had the horse vetted though perhaps we have more experience than those on the show who clearly thought this was standard procedure.


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## Parachute (8 May 2013)

PAHAHAHAAHA!
This is pretty amusing!!


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## tessybear (8 May 2013)

Brilliant 

Horrible man.


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## BWa (8 May 2013)

I realise they are actors!! I am more frustrated by the message they are putting out.


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## Parachute (8 May 2013)

tessybear said:



			Brilliant 

Horrible man.
		
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He can talk for England can't he? 
'THAT'S THE VETS JOB'
Mate, you should be able to tell if your horse is lame or not. Erh meh gawd.


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## Parachute (8 May 2013)

BWa said:



			I realise they are actors!! I am more frustrated by the message they are putting out.
		
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Sorry!!! I thought you weren't following


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## Camel (8 May 2013)

The dealer has a point, they didn't go back to him with the problem initially! X


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## BWa (8 May 2013)

He he, glad it was on prime time but still not sure it delivered the right message.


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## weebarney (8 May 2013)

So what happened to queenie????


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## Queenbee (8 May 2013)

Parachute said:



			'It looks like a cow'
Must admit, I laughed!
		
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*whispers* is it wrong that I laughed when the pony got down an went to roll with a rider on his back?  I simply couldn't help myself...  quite clearly a horse of character


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## case895 (8 May 2013)

This man isn't anywhere near the worst there is around, but the BBC won't take members of that 'community' on or even show them in a bad light.

Anyone who buys a horse without vetting first is an idiot.


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## ralph and maverick (8 May 2013)

I love Samson the TB!!!


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## RunRunReindeer (8 May 2013)

Polos Mum said:



			I assume that the BBC will be making a hefty donation to Redwings to pay for the care of both horses for the rest of their lives.  - I bl**&y well hope so anyway!!
		
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Ditto this.


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## jhoward (8 May 2013)

The 14 days is a load of tosh as a dealer the buyers are covered by the sales of good act..its 28 days why has watchdog not mentioned this? Bad bad artical and mis leading dodgy as the dealer is, he's played by his own rules. Wd just never picked him up on it


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## galaxy (8 May 2013)

The item could have redeemed itself by giving people some simple advise on how NOT to get ripped off at the end!

1.  Take a knowledgble person to viewing

2.  Have horse vetted BEFORE purchase

(3.  Get a reasonable budget and a better idea of what would make a suitable horse!!!!)


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## SKY (8 May 2013)

You can get many a good all rounder for £1000, but on donedeal there seem to be quite a few cheaper horses as trade isnt there.  A lot £3000-£4000 as well but loads under £1000 allrounders.  Hope they name and shame more like that.


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## criso (8 May 2013)

I would have preferred it if they'd ended by saying  always have a horse vetted and very cheap horses tend to be cheap for a reason.


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## be positive (8 May 2013)

That was a badly thought out way to try and catch out a rogue dealer, the horse Queenie would have failed a vetting, not sure how the broken bones in its legs were diagnosed but it should have been returned under the terms of sale for a full refund, that option was offered but not taken, luckily for the horse but not really a  way to catch out the dealer. 
The fact that 20% of sales are returned is rather telling but most people buying horses in that price range are likely to be buying a potential problem and no mention was made of vetting pre purchase, trying properly or the fact that a bargain horse may not be all that it seems.


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## Pearlsasinger (8 May 2013)

BWa said:



			He he, glad it was on prime time but still not sure it delivered the right message.
		
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Oh, I think they did - the right message being - avoid this dodgy dealer at all costs!

And just in case any-one does  a search in future the dealer is  Kelly's Cobs.  I haven't seen the name as far as I've read up to now.


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## Montyforever (8 May 2013)

The people with the bay cob that was 2.5 instead of 4 etc are very good friends of mine so I know them very well. (I'm the "friend that ended up in a&e" ..) 

They were looking for a safe cob (regardless of age) and when viewing him were told that he was 4 and he was perfect throughout the viewing. Yes they should have had him vetted but that still wouldn't have shown up the behavioural problems would it? 

He's now just turned 3 so is being lightly ridden, no more than any just broken youngster would be. They care very much about their horses, and wouldn't do anything to harm Woody. 

Obviously once they found out about his real age they could understand why he was behaving the way he was but rolling when being ridden is a very dangerous habit which to be honest I can't see him outgrowing now (rolling is a get out behaviour for him, he's done it to me when being simply led down to the field because I wouldn't let him stop for grass ) . 
I don't hold any grudges against him for dislocating my shoulder, he's only young and strong so me putting my arm at a dodgy angle while he barged me wasn't his fault. He has to learn, but he was sold as safe for small children to handle and ride this is the main issue here. Luckily he was bought in the middle of winter so the kids hadn't been up to ride/fuss him before they found out what he was like. But my friends are now stuck with a horse they are very unlikely to ever be able to sell and may never be fit for the purpose they bought him for. 

It's just lucky the problems were spotted before he killed or seriously injured one of my friends grandkids.

Please don't rip her to shreds, she was unfortunately badly conned and is now in a difficult situation


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## galaxy (8 May 2013)

Pearlsasinger said:



			Oh, I think they did - the right message being - avoid this dodgy dealer at all costs!

And just in case any-one does  a search in future the dealer is  Kelly's Cobs.  I haven't seen the name as far as I've read up to now.
		
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Who will I am sure have totally rebranded by tomorrow morning....


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## horsebenny (8 May 2013)

I'd be interested to know how much Bute some of these places get through in a week!


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## galaxy (8 May 2013)

Montyforever said:



			The people with the bay cob that was 2.5 instead of 4 etc are very good friends of mine so I know them very well. (I'm the "friend that ended up in a&e" ..) 

They were looking for a safe cob (regardless of age) and when viewing him were told that he was 4 and he was perfect throughout the viewing. Yes they should have had him vetted but that still wouldn't have shown up the behavioural problems would it? 

He's now just turned 3 so is being lightly ridden, no more than any just broken youngster would be. They care very much about their horses, and wouldn't do anything to harm Woody. 

Obviously once they found out about his real age they could understand why he was behaving the way he was but rolling when being ridden is a very dangerous habit which to be honest I can't see him outgrowing now (rolling is a get out behaviour for him, he's done it to me when being simply led down to the field because I wouldn't let him stop for grass ) . 
I don't hold any grudges against him for dislocating my shoulder, he's only young and strong so me putting my arm at a dodgy angle while he barged me wasn't his fault. He has to learn, but he was sold as safe for small children to handle and ride this is the main issue here. Luckily he was bought in the middle of winter so the kids hadn't been up to ride/fuss him before they found out what he was like. But my friends are now stuck with a horse they are very unlikely to ever be able to sell and may never be fit for the purpose they bought him for. 

It's just lucky the problems were spotted before he killed or seriously injured one of my friends grandkids.

Please don't rip her to shreds, she was unfortunately badly conned and is now in a difficult situation 

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I do feel sorry for your friend, but the vetting would have shown up his age....??

She also said she didn't want a youngster so why did she buy a 4 yr old? Even thought 4 year olds are (generally) broken in they can still be incredibly naughty as they go through phases.  She would have been much better off with a more experienced older horse.

Hope she manages to sort it all out.


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## be positive (8 May 2013)

Montyforever said:



			The people with the bay cob that was 2.5 instead of 4 etc are very good friends of mine so I know them very well. (I'm the "friend that ended up in a&e" ..) 

They were looking for a safe cob (regardless of age) and when viewing him were told that he was 4 and he was perfect throughout the viewing. Yes they should have had him vetted but that still wouldn't have shown up the behavioural problems would it? 

He's now just turned 3 so is being lightly ridden, no more than any just broken youngster would be. They care very much about their horses, and wouldn't do anything to harm Woody. 

Obviously once they found out about his real age they could understand why he was behaving the way he was but rolling when being ridden is a very dangerous habit which to be honest I can't see him outgrowing now (rolling is a get out behaviour for him, he's done it to me when being simply led down to the field because I wouldn't let him stop for grass ) . 
I don't hold any grudges against him for dislocating my shoulder, he's only young and strong so me putting my arm at a dodgy angle while he barged me wasn't his fault. He has to learn, but he was sold as safe for small children to handle and ride this is the main issue here. Luckily he was bought in the middle of winter so the kids hadn't been up to ride/fuss him before they found out what he was like. But my friends are now stuck with a horse they are very unlikely to ever be able to sell and may never be fit for the purpose they bought him for. 

It's just lucky the problems were spotted before he killed or seriously injured one of my friends grandkids.

Please don't rip her to shreds, she was unfortunately badly conned and is now in a difficult situation 

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Vetting would have shown up the main issue which was his age, yes they are in an unfortunate position now but it could have been sent back as not fit for purpose if vetted after getting it home or before collection.


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## Queenbee (8 May 2013)

Parachute said:



			They were actors 
Redwings was just checking them but I think Queenie may be PTS.
And i'm sure they didn't get vetted to see how Kelly would sell them 

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weebarney said:



			So what happened to queenie????
		
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I believe both queenie and loppy will be spending the rest of their lives with redwings, that was certainly the impression given.  They were quite clear that Queenie, whilst not having a long life, would be kept there, comfortable and pain free and well cared for until the joint degenerated to such an extent that pain management was not possible.  They indicated 1-2 years so neither of them seem to be facing imminent death... just some decent care, love and respect in their final years.



GG2B said:



			Queenbee - yeah I realised that was their process when watchdog went to buy Loppy. Still I would have refused to hand over money until I'd had the horse vetted though perhaps we have more experience than those on the show who clearly thought this was standard procedure.
		
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I suspect that they took the approach they did because they wanted to ensure that they actually could get their vets to look over the horses, if they refused payment pending satisfactory vetting, they ran the risk of KC refusing the sale/vetting because they knew the horses would fail or come up short on their descriptions at least.  As a result the best way to do this would have been to hand the money, take the horse, then get it vetted... this exposes far more than risking not being able to vet the horse.  Take queenie for example... seriously lame and ******, one assumes that something was administered to mask that at the dealers and that the dealers would know she would fail a vetting.  



Parachute said:



			He can talk for England can't he? 
'THAT'S THE VETS JOB'
Mate, you should be able to tell if your horse is lame or not. Erh meh gawd. 

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Interestingly, when they were filming him over the discussion of loppys age, he specifically said that when age was unknown (as in her passport) they get the vet out to check so they know what to accurately advertise... So he would have you believe they do work with vets, then he denys his responsibility to check if the horse is lame or not... saying thats down to the purchasers vet.  It is illegal to leave a horse in pain... simply on that he is breaking the law...

I would use some colourful wording to describe him, but id get banned


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## inamac (8 May 2013)

The programme could have made more of the need to know what you;re doing when buying a horse - especially with so many novice owners entering the market - all ready to be conned.

But the real problem with applying the Sale of Goods Act to animal sales (not just horses but puppy and kitten-farm products) is that once the owner has the 'goods' and discovers the extent of the 'damage' they are (understandably) reluctant to return the animal to the place they got it for a refund.  If anyone should pay for the care these two horses will receive at Redwings it's the dealer.


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## tessybear (8 May 2013)

Their facebook page has been mauled


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## Pearlsasinger (8 May 2013)

galaxy said:



			Who will I am sure have totally rebranded by tomorrow morning....
		
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I wouldn't be at all surprised - this is at least their 3rd reincarnation -  but David Thomas seems to keep his own name despite being banned from being the director of a business.  And they are  always in a similar location.


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## Montyforever (8 May 2013)

I know the vetting would have shown up his age, which we are all more than aware of. 

The point of the program was that the horses are not being sold as described. He was described as being 4, 100% safe to ride, drive and handle. He is none of that (opposite infact!) and if a novice had taken him on there could have been a serious accident.


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## horseandshoes77 (8 May 2013)

tescoexpress said:



			This man isn't anywhere near the worst there is around, but the BBC won't take members of that 'community' on or even show them in a bad light.

Anyone who buys a horse without vetting first is an idiot.
		
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If you look at their fb page and website they are clearly selling to the novice market...I know lots of novices who would believe everyword they said and buy without vetting, and tbf the dealer is clearly selling misdescribed horses (not just lame) 

oh and im the biggest idiot iv got 3 none vetted...had one 13 years never had a vet bar injections one 5 years no bother and another whos nearly 12 she has the onset of arthritis and has had personality issues but tbh vetting is one day I doubt it would have made a diff !


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## Queenbee (8 May 2013)

inamac said:



			The programme could have made more of the need to know what you;re doing when buying a horse - especially with so many novice owners entering the market - all ready to be conned.
		
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I agree and was going to say exactly the same!  they should have done a checklist for buying.


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## Lisa2manyponies (8 May 2013)

does anyone have the link to the iplayer for this program please ?


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## jrp204 (8 May 2013)

Someone sold that coloured to the dealer, bet they knew its issues.


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## galaxy (8 May 2013)

Montyforever said:



			I know the vetting would have shown up his age, which we are all more than aware of. 

The point of the program was that the horses are not being sold as described. He was described as being 4, 100% safe to ride, drive and handle. He is none of that (opposite infact!) and if a novice had taken him on there could have been a serious accident.
		
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No, they are not as described.  But 4 years old + 100% safe just don't go together.  They shouldn't be selling that and noone should think that a 4 year old can be that.


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## case895 (8 May 2013)

horseandshoes77 said:



			If you look at their fb page and website they are clearly selling to the novice market...I know lots of novices who would believe everyword they said and buy without vetting, and tbf the dealer is clearly selling misdescribed horses (not just lame) 

oh and im the biggest idiot iv got 3 none vetted...had one 13 years never had a vet bar injections one 5 years no bother and another whos nearly 12 she has the onset of arthritis and has had personality issues but tbh vetting is one day I doubt it would have made a diff !
		
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I stand by my remark.


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## alfirules (8 May 2013)

jrp204 said:



			Someone sold that coloured to the dealer, bet they knew its issues.
		
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I was thinking this, dealer bought the horses of someone, or probably got them for next to nothing. Its a shame that the original owners didn't except responsibility before sending them to a dealer!


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## The wife (8 May 2013)

Funny isn't it how Mr Thomas served time for tis thing before and yet York sales is willing allowing him to purchase Horses in his name and consequently sell them on... Silly silly girl for getting involved in a low life scum like him.


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## Adopter (8 May 2013)

Redwings have posted on their Facebook page that both horses are doing well and they will put more information about them on their page next week.


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## Pearlsasinger (8 May 2013)

The wife said:



			Funny isn't it how Mr Thomas served time for tis thing before and yet York sales is willing allowing him to purchase Horses in his name and consequently sell them on... Silly silly girl for getting involved in a low life scum like him.
		
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York sales can have no direct knowledge of what David Thomas is going to do with horses that he buys from there and it isn't up to them to police dealers.  That is the job of Trading Standards.  I have been aware for some time now that Kelly's Cobs was DT in yet another guise (as have several other people), so I'm not sure what TS are doing.


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## Annie0809 (9 May 2013)

People seem to put a lot or reliance on vetting. We (and other people) have had similar catastrophic experiences, despite having vetting done (another dealer with Cobs in the name - in the West Midlands).
Sold as the perfect ride for a 12 year old, bolted and trampled my daughter underfoot secnd time she rode him.
Seems to be legal protection agiinst dealers, we tried the court angle but as he was of no fixed abode (apparently) you cant enforce any court orders. Trading Standards uninterested.
It's buyer beware...


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## be positive (9 May 2013)

Annie0809 said:



			People seem to put a lot or reliance on vetting. We (and other people) have had similar catastrophic experiences, despite having vetting done (another dealer with Cobs in the name - in the West Midlands).
Sold as the perfect ride for a 12 year old, bolted and trampled my daughter underfoot secnd time she rode him.
Seems to be legal protection agiinst dealers, we tried the court angle but as he was of no fixed abode (apparently) you cant enforce any court orders. Trading Standards uninterested.
It's buyer beware...
		
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Your experience sounds awful but it is probably something that could not have been picked up at vetting, the horses shown in WD were of a different age, which was picked up by vets, or lame, again immediately obvious, so the programme was flawed, that is not to say theses dealers are acting in anything other than their own interests and making money out of people that are inexperienced.


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## Annie0809 (9 May 2013)

Could do with a 'Tripadvisor' for Horse dealers, name and shame the bad guys and highlight the reputable ones.
You put any bad experiences on forums they get taken off for being slanderous...


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## Polos Mum (9 May 2013)

I think most people have recommended both a vetting and an independent second pair of experienced eyes - you need both really.  I've owned horses for 20+ years, up to 5 at one point kept at home without issue.  But I wouldn't go and buy a horse on my own - I don't know enough and I'd get to emotionally involved (can't imagine what it would be like shopping for a child - mine gets emotionally attached to toys in tesco!!) 

If at pony suitable for a 12 year old behaves perfectly at 3 separate viewings when ridden by said child - at least twice out hacking(one roads and one fields) and then ideally in a strange environment, and vetting shows clean bloods (if there is a problem) you'd have been very very unlucky to have a problem. 

Dealers rush people into snap decisions after 20 mins trial for something parents are trusting the lives of their children to!   Sorry but for me if you can't get proper trials/ take time to handle in stable etc. then I'd just keep walking away - I suspect it'll take me a very long time to find ponys for my son when he's older!


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## MerrySherryRider (9 May 2013)

I'm always surprised that people with no experience go out and buy a horse. 

Surely, before buying anything, -a car, a holiday, a house or a horse, you do some research and use an expert to guide you through the process.

No wonder these unscrupulous dealers are making money. As long as gullible people are happy to part with their money, horses will continue to suffer.


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## Polos Mum (9 May 2013)

horserider said:



			I'm always surprised that people with no experience go out and buy a horse.
		
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I can only imagine it's because they think they are saving money, 'the ad said perfect for novice at £1000' so why wouldn't that be true!!!  

That's only c.30 lessons worth, and the 'experienced people' keep telling them it's not a good idea, they will only get what they pay for etc. so they get ignored. 

I'm sure parents spend much longer deciding which pram to get their little ones, and their pram will NEVER get down and try and roll on them!! 

Sorry if I'm ranting but a 4 y/o old pony for a child made me cross - a tiny bit of common sense would know that it's a bad idea - no matter what the person selling it says about how perfect it is - the TV was also miss leading last night saying 2.5 is a teenager - last time I checked ponys went through the teenager phase about 5/6 !!


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## FabioandFreddy (9 May 2013)

I definitely agree there should be a site where known dodgy dealers who change there name every other month to con new unsuspecting people can be named and shamed. Horse hunting is hard enough as it is! We can write bad reviews about restaurants, hotels etc, why not dealers?! 

Missed Watchdog but will try and catch it later if its on iplayer.

Must say though, they might do a great write up on their ads, but you only have to watch one of the vids on the ads to see the horses aren't great and why they're so cheap.


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## weebarney (9 May 2013)

Don't be so harsh on the new to horses people, as long as they take their horse to a livery yard where there are others to guide them then fair enough. I was a complete novice once, didnt know how to tack up so I fell off through not tightening the girth, thought the pony had been sick one day when it was just a bit mouth froth, turned him out in a stable rug and many other things. We never had a vetting or took anyone along as I guess we thought it would be like buying a dog but in our defence it was pre internet days so research was a bit limited.

They are placing their trust in these people who are supposed to be professional, they simply don't know to question it although I didnt much like the watchdog piece and thought the dealer came off looking pretty decent(whether he is or isnt is another matter).


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## Janeuk1 (9 May 2013)

Hi Everyone,

I was the first person on watchdog last night relating to Kelly's cobs and I want to clear a few things up as I'm getting really frustrated by some negative comments!

Firstly, I am not a novice. I went to kelly's cobs after a lot of travelling and viewing of horses - so many instances were sellers forget to mention before you travel that the horse has serious problems with their feet, has sarcoids, has had laminitis etc etc I had a few horses fail vettings also (£750 down the drain.. not to mention petrol costs and time).

I saw Monty for sale and thought he sounded like a good experienced horse for my daughter (who was 16 and been riding since 4 yrs) to start competing in local shows. 
We drove almost 4 hours to get to Kellys cobs. Monty was tried and as I wanted another horse for myself to ride and for my husband to learn to ride on (he was a novice rider) I had a look what else was there and was talked in to trying out Ed.
Due to the lack of facilities available and the appalling weather on that day, it was difficult to assess the horses properly. The terms and conditions state if you are unhappy within two weeks you can return the horses. I decided to take up this option because It gave me the opportunity to try out the horse thoroughly before paying the £500 Vetting costs. I had the vetting booked in for 10 days after the start of the trial.
I found out about Monty's injury from a previous owner (not the one who sold him to kellys cobs) after writing to all owners listed on his passport (I wanted to know as much as possible about a horse we owned). I spoke to my vet regarding this and she advised that a horse who had suffered a serious sensory ligament injury is at high risk of suffering a reoccurance and shouldnt be used as a jumping horse. She also told me that this would probably NOT be easily identified in a vetting and would likely be missed!! I did offer to buy Monty for less money to keep as a light hacking horse because I felt sorry for him but David wouldnt agree to this and accused me of being dishonest! (I sent him Monty's old vet records and emails from his previous owners with further details of the injury)
Ed we found totally unsuitable for my husband as he bolted off when my husband became unbalance (as novice riders do).
So, no - i didnt have them vetted because I found out they were not suitable before I spent the money. When we returned the horses. I had a lot of problems getting my money returned.

Can I add - that we went on to buy a horse who passed a 5 stage vetting. The only issue was a "graze" on the horses withers which the vet accepted had been done by a rug. We bought the horse and later found the injury to the horses withers was caused by a broken saddle and was pretty bad - the horse couldnt be ridden for about 6 weeks... 

sorry for the long post..

cheers
Jane


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## Polos Mum (9 May 2013)

weebarney said:



			Don't be so harsh on the new to horses people, as long as they take their horse to a livery yard where there are others to guide them then fair enough.
		
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I'm not meaning to be harsh - and I agree entirely if you have help to guide you your first horse will be a wonderful memory - none of us ever forget our first. 

BUT - a 2 min conversation with a livery yard owner or riding instructor will let anyone know that buying a horse is a tricky business.  Most people aren't car mechanics so wouldn't buy a second hand car without someone checking it over and having a poke at it's history with the text thingy the AA do. And a car doesn't have a personality or mind of it's own. If I saw an add for a BMW softop with 10,000 miles on the clock for £3,000 I'd know something was up - might not know what but my common sense would tell me to check it out before handing over my £s.


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## weebarney (9 May 2013)

wasnt meant at you just the people saying they are numpties etc.


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## MerrySherryRider (9 May 2013)

*Weebarney* absolutely nothing wrong with being inexperienced but frustrated at people who walk blindly into buying a horse without using common sense and even worse, renting a field/DIY with no support.

 I'm fed up with the novice who wanted a cheap as chips horse from a horse market, but thought nothing of going on holiday 4 times a year and driving a new Audi. She quickly ended up being taken to hospital by air ambulance.
 And the first time owners recently who bought 4 year old ponies for their small children only to find they are 18 months old.

All avoidable mistakes. Sure, even knowledgeable people get a bad deal sometimes, but some errors are avoidable.

Even the inexperienced buyer can gain clues on a dealers yard by looking around and listening to a dealer too ready to sell anything as long as they don't leave empty handed.
 Paying someone knowledgeable to oversee a purchase, can prevent an expensive mistake.


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## flyingfeet (9 May 2013)

I actually thought the watchdog piece was badly done, and at no point did they try getting a refund to see whether he really was dodgy 

The vetting redwings did with scoping and xrays would have been in excess of £600 which is just not going to fly on a horse valued around £1,500

I think the dealer probably was dodgy, but if there are people out there looking for cheap ponies then there is always going to be a market.

When I was attempting to sell a 16 year old (homebred) for £1,500 I was pretty horrified with the potential buyers and took her off the market.

I think the piece was biased and should have included a check list for people buying their first horse (i.e. get a basic vetting). From the dealers reaction to watchdog, he wanted to sit down and sort it out, yet they wouldn't let him! Other properly dodgy traders do a runner


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## Janeuk1 (9 May 2013)

flyingfeet said:



			I actually thought the watchdog piece was badly done, and at no point did they try getting a refund to see whether he really was dodgy
		
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As I said in my previous post - I did try to get a refund and it wasnt as easy and straight forward as David Thomas makes out on the programme. I had a lot of problems and he wasnt very pleasant about it. 
His terms also state that they make a deduction if you retun an unsuitable horse - so he makes money when people take them on trial anyway.

There is only so much they can fit in to a programme but they spoke to a lot of people and gathered a lot of evidence before this went anywhere near the production stage.


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## ester (9 May 2013)

flyingfeet I thought the same, they never tried to return a horse as unsuitable, or as a failed vetting so didn't really test the reports of issues there. 

I am also not sure what the situation is legally if a dealer sells a horse that has problems that the dealer is not aware of- ie is that still not fit for purpose/misdescribed even if no intent on the dealers side.


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## Janeuk1 (9 May 2013)

ester said:



			flyingfeet I thought the same, they never tried to return a horse as unsuitable, or as a failed vetting so didn't really test the reports of issues there. 

I am also not sure what the situation is legally if a dealer sells a horse that has problems that the dealer is not aware of- ie is that still not fit for purpose/misdescribed even if no intent on the dealers side.
		
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They had other evidence regarding the return of horses. It wasnt just hear say.

Legally, a dealer cannot deny responsibility "because they didnt know" its no different than buying a car from a dealer and the engine packing in a week later under the sale of goods act. This is why many dealers try to sell horses by pretending they are private sellers - then it is a case of buyer beware.


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## Polos Mum (9 May 2013)

JaneUK1 - sorry you had such a tough time, hopefully others will be able to learn from your experience and not hand over any cash until they have fully tried the horse, in all relevant situations and had it vetted as getting a refund may not be as simple as a dealer suggests. 

I've bought 2 from different dealers, both of those I had on 2 weeks trial at my livery yard before any cash changed hands - it was more than 10 years ago now so maybe less common in todays climate of buying.


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## ester (9 May 2013)

I am aware of that but they did not really present that side of it in the programme.


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## Aarrghimpossiblepony (9 May 2013)

Didn't see the program but am I right in understanding that this dealer was trading under the name 
"Kelly's Cobs"?
And people went within a hundred miles of him?

Sometimes it pays to be a snob.


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## criso (9 May 2013)

flyingfeet said:



			The vetting redwings did with scoping and xrays would have been in excess of £600 which is just not going to fly on a horse valued around £1,500
		
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I would in some circumstances consider a vetting even if the horse was free.  It might save heartache down the line and expense of paying more in vets bills because I am then emotionally attached.

I know of friends who when selling horses have had conditions show up at vetting that they didn't know about and they were not being dishonest when selling.

Even a 2 stage vetting or a quick look at the teeth will show up the difference between a 2 year old and a 4 year old or a 16 year old and a 25 year old.

I would have been curious to see what would have been the reaction of the dealer if they had suggested a vetting, would the horses suddenly have not been available maybe due it an unexpected injury  

Ultimately as I said before, the programme let the novice buyers down by not mentioning anywhere what buyers could do to protect themselves.


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## Emma_H (9 May 2013)

Looks like their website has been taken down


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## Amymay (9 May 2013)

Emma_H said:



			Looks like their website has been taken down
		
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FB still up though.

https://www.facebook.com/KellysCobs


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## gnubee (9 May 2013)

I missed the beginning, but I actually thought that the dealer came accross much better than watchdog in the bit I saw. In trying to make a dramatic program, they failed both to set out the real problem and provide constructive consumer advice. IMHO if you buy without a vetting you do so at your own risk. 
Was the horse lame enough that it should have been obvious to the dealer whilst he was there? Possibly. Had it existed, should that degree of lameness have been picked up by the vetting which the buyer was entitled to perform and any responsible buyer would have done? Certainly. There is at least one person on here who says they did perform appropriate checks and try to return the horse within the period, which would have made a much more appropriate story about giving a responsible consumer the protection to which they should be entitled.

As a horse person I went away frustrated that the issues being addressed seemed to be things that (for the most part) ought to have been identified by responsible buyers seeking appropriately experienced advice and having vettings. 
It scares me to think that non-horsey people went away thinking that you should be able to buy a 4 year old horse for your novice child for £1000 (or really any price) and expect it to be 100% suitable, and that if the horse has something wrong with it medically you shouldn't need to have it vetted becaus the seller should tell you.

 Yes, the horse should theoretically have been 4 yo and suitable for a novice if that was how he was advertised, but I don't know any experienced horse person who would suggest that such a horse could ever really exist without close knowledge of both the child and the pony in question. It doesn't even require massive outlay on instructors; come on H&H and say "I want to buy a cheap 4yo which the dealer says is 100% safe for my novice child" and the free advice you need will be provided consistently and vociferously.

How difficult would it have been for them to use 30 seconds screen time to say:
- dont buy a horse unless you know what you are doing, what you need, and how you will care for it
- take an experienced person who knows your ability along for a second opinion
- paying out for a vetting upfront can save a lot in vets fees and emotional trauma down the line even for a horse that costs less than the vetting
- a young horse, even if well behaved on the day, will nearly always be ruined by a novice rider or handler
- try out the horse in a variety of situations and if you feel this is not possible, or are uncomfortable or pressured by the seller, just walk away.


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## MerrySherryRider (9 May 2013)

To be fair, Watchdog is not an equestrain programme, if people use a general consumer programme as a source of information for horse buying, I despair. 

 I'd vote for making everyone pass a compulsory course before buying and be licensed. Might save the horse welfare charities a fortune and better informed buyers would clip the wings of dodgy dealers.


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## digitalangel (9 May 2013)

must also say i was frustrated with Watchdog. This piece could have been so much better.


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## hnmisty (9 May 2013)

Watchdog isn't an equestrian programme though, I think it also shows that other dealers who offer "refund" periods may also not hand your money back very quickly. Why do a refund period? Why not do a trial period? 

Website still comes up in google but won't open. And no one has deleted the angry comments on their FB page...

I loved Samson, and I'm hoping that the BBC/Watchdog are paying for those two to be kept in retirement at Redwings. Loppy was adorable 

At the end of the day though, what it really shows is that you should have a vetting done before you take the horse off the yard, even if you are actually getting a trial period. 

(And surely the vet's job is to work out WHY the horse is lame...it's the owner/carer's job to spot the lameness!)


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## whisp&willow (9 May 2013)

I just watched it on iplayer... bit wishy washy if you ask me!

The woman who bought the 2 1/2 yr old (sold as a 4 yo) She was looking to buy a horse for children to ride... why on earth would you buy a 4 yr old for that purpose?  In the footage, he seemed like a nice quiet pony... but a cheeky one who has learned that if you lie down your rider gets off.  Also not sure why they are still riding it now they know it's age?!

Not supporting a dodgey dealer-  but they are not solely responsible for the buying public.  

I really wish people would vet before buying, and at the very least take their instructor or a very knowledgeable third party along with them to try and get an idea of what they are viewing.

As for Loppy-  she seemed like a lovely horse, full of life, and nowhere near retirement!  Yes she had a big blemish, but my horse has many of them which do not affect her soundness, and at 19 is certainly nowhere near retirement!  Again, she was sold as being a different age... but then my sisters old pony was sold to us as a 16yr old, and turned out to be nearer 30... a genuine seller who was as shocked as we were (she acted like a 3 yo!).  The pony was fit and well and worked daily until only a couple of years ago.  She is now retired, and if I had a light competent rider she could still be happily hacked, although at a more gentle pace than she would like!

I thought the piece could have been better, and although I am sure that the dealer is no saint, I think we are all responsible for what we buy...


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## Montyforever (9 May 2013)

Whispandwillow - if you go back a few pages I've commented as I know the horse/owners well, he's now 3 but when sold to them was 2 1/2  he's only being very lightly ridden now.


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## Janeuk1 (9 May 2013)

I find it really frustrating people thinking a vetting is the be all and end all. The sensory ligament injury that Monty had suffered is unlikely to have been picked up by 5 stage vetting as he wasnt lame and the damage is not visible from the outside. I found out about this injury by research - which I wouldnt have been able to do until I had bought him and had the passport with all the previous owners in it (and there was no guarantee they would have responded - although i was lucky they did). The first I would have known about it would have been if the ligament had gone again (which would have been likely if he was used as we wanted - for jumping). 

I have 4 horses / ponies and only one was vetted. The vetted one was the only one that I had any medical problem with - which the vet passed even though it was present and visible at the time of vetting. The other three have been brilliant. (admittedly two were youngsters and so hadn't been subject to any kind of riding or strenuous activity)

Vettings only assess that horse for the couple of hours they are there - and its not the vets job to determine suitability of temperement or ability to the owner / rider.

Also, saying only experience horse people should buy / own horses is like saying only experienced parents can have a baby..... everybody has to start getting experience from the beginning. There is always something new to learn no matter how long you have been around horses as each one is different. (although I agree that a novice should be advised to by a horse that has its ground manners established, no vices and is well schooled)

I have made mistakes with horses in the past, but most experienced horse people I know have too and they have learned from them. Yes you will get people that have a problem that will just sell it on, but there are also people who have a problem and so learn ways to overcome those problems (through research, help of others, patience). 

I would never critisise a novice who was willing to learn, rather that than an experienced horse person who was so confident they knew it all they were not open to change or better ways of doing things.

I agree that there are other things that could have made the programme better, rather than just concentrating on the health and description of the horses being sold - but I can only gather the programme was about naming and shaming a rogue trader rather than giving consumer advice about buying a horse. The BHS website is a pretty good start for that kind of information.

The biggest problem with buying and selling horses is dishonesty. I could never dream of not being 100% truthful about a pony I was selling, even if this meant I had to sell for less - its peoples lives at risk and if I lied and the pony was unsuitable, the pony would just go from pillar to post (One of my youngsters was 2 when I bought her and had 3 previous owners already - you couldnt get near her! shes amazing now though after just 8 months)


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## Polos Mum (9 May 2013)

Janeuk1 said:



			I find it really frustrating people thinking a vetting is the be all and end all. The sensory ligament injury that Monty had suffered is unlikely to have been picked up by 5 stage vetting as he wasnt lame and the damage is not visible from the outside.
		
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What would you have done if you'd have bought privately?  If it was a couple of owners previously the person you bought from may have been unaware of the issue.  

Agree a vetting and experienced helper doesn't always guarantee sucess - but nothing in life is guaranteed sadly.


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## poiuytrewq (9 May 2013)

Montyforever said:



			Whispandwillow - if you go back a few pages I've commented as I know the horse/owners well, he's now 3 but when sold to them was 2 1/2  he's only being very lightly ridden now.
		
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Sorry Montyforever This thread is too long and I cant find this particular bit! Did your fiends keep the horse then? 
Would be lovely too hear they did and it worked out ok? He didn't look naughty in the video just a baby and id like too think his story at least had a good ending


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## Montyforever (9 May 2013)

Poiuytrewq - yep they still have him, he's only a baby and he's done a lot so it's understandable that he has issues bless him.
But the rolling/lying down when ridden isn't going away, he's learnt to use it as its an effective way of getting out of doing things and he's generally one to use his strength against you. (as I unfortunately found out ) 
I think with a lot of time/paitence he may get better but he's still spooky and unpredictable, and completely not as described by Kelly's cobs  he's lucky to be with my friends, don't think many other people would have put up with what they have.


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## Janeuk1 (9 May 2013)

Polos Mum said:



			What would you have done if you'd have bought privately?  If it was a couple of owners previously the person you bought from may have been unaware of the issue.  

Agree a vetting and experienced helper doesn't always guarantee sucess - but nothing in life is guaranteed sadly.
		
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His last owner did know, admittedly she didnt tell the dealer - because he asked NOTHING about the horse (some might say it's not his fault, I would say thats irresponsible). He knocked £500 of a horse she was buying as part ex. She did however, include a letter with his passport with contact details and some information, but this was not with the passport when i recieved it.
The previous owner to that was quite annoyed about the situation as she told me he was sold on as a light hack. 

I would probably not have travelled so far to a private seller to be honest. I did so, because I felt a (false) confidence with the two week trial agreement. Once i found there were problems I gave David Thomas the benefit of the doubt initially and I only went to trading standards when he held on to my money. (I was even ok with losing the admin fees because that was the risk I was prepared to take to have a genuine trial period to make sure the horses were what we were looking for - i didnt take them on being naive, I personall think a two week trial where you can go really test a horse is worth a little bit of money!)

I would be very interested to know if he reduced Monty's price accordingly once he was definitely aware of the injury and passed on the vet records i sent to him that detailed Monty's said injury and treatment received.

I admit it is a battle field out there and I did after that always take more than one experienced person with me to few the other horses (except the frightened pony.... I saw a photo of her and fell in love - I guess my impulse is my problem! I took her on with the expectation of having to work hard with her though, maybe thats the difference)


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## Amymay (9 May 2013)

The previous owner to that was quite annoyed about the situation as she told me he was sold on as a light hack.
		
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And therein lies the problem.

Dodgy dealers, and people unwilling to face up to their responsibilities.


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## criso (9 May 2013)

Janeuk1 said:



			I find it really frustrating people thinking a vetting is the be all and end all.
		
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There is no guarantee that a vetting will pick up everything but you can guarantee that you won't pick up underlying issues if you don't have a vetting.

Yes, with soft tissue injuries it is possible to rest a horse so it recovers up to a point but will relapse when it comes back into work.  If you sell it at that point it time, it probably would pass a vetting.  Seen it happen with private sellers and then the buyer has had it scanned and the old injury has shown up. In those cases, it is also more difficult to prove that the dealer/private seller knew as while at least the dealer has the responsibility to compensate the buyer they could have bought and sold in good faith.


But in most of the cases that they showed in the programme a vet would have picked up that

1 The 4 year old was nearer 2
2 The 12/16/unknown age grey mare was over 20.  The horrendous scarring on her leg may not have been relevant but I would want a second opinion that no vital structures were involved before buying.
3 The coloured mare while it didn't say what was wrong, it sounded very severe and involved bones so may well have been picked up.




Janeuk1 said:



			I would never critisise a novice who was willing to learn, rather that than an experienced horse person who was so confident they knew it all they were not open to change or better ways of doing things.
		
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But one example of over confident for me would be a novice who thinks they don't need a second opinion from instructors/vets/more experienced friends when they go to buy a horse.


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## *sprinkles* (9 May 2013)

Just watched this on catch-up ..... Unbelievable that he has 20% of horses returned to him and offers refunds. Yeah he offers refunds, but that's a huge percentage to be returned and hardly a way to run a business! God what a shambles! However, I do think there's two sides to every story and the question is why were these horses not vetted before they left his yard?! Others have probably made this point (not read the whole thread) but at the end of the day the saying goes "buyer beware" .... Doesn't excuse his lying but buyers are setting themselves up for failure if they don't take precautions particularly when buying an older horse. Funny how this was never mentioned in the show ....


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## MerrySherryRider (9 May 2013)

I don't think anyone is saying only experienced people should buy horses otherwise no one would ever buy a first horse.
 Best chance of success is to be informed, have a knowledgeable person to help and get a vetting done. 
 A vetting doesn't ensure a perfect horse, but at least you'll rule out a number of issues before you start, particularly if the buyer is inexperienced. I've known vets actually stop a vetting to advise the buyer that the horse, although healthy, is unsuitable. for the intended rider. ( And in one case, very probably saved the girl from breaking her neck.)

 Buying a horse, no matter how many you've had, is always a gamble but ask a successful gambler their secret of success and they'll tell you its not just luck, its hard work.


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## Janeuk1 (9 May 2013)

*sprinkles* said:



			Just watched this on catch-up ..... Unbelievable that he has 20% of horses returned to him and offers refunds. Yeah he offers refunds, but that's a huge percentage to be returned and hardly a way to run a business! God what a shambles! However, I do think there's two sides to every story and the question is why were these horses not vetted before they left his yard?! Others have probably made this point (not read the whole thread) but at the end of the day the saying goes "buyer beware" .... Doesn't excuse his lying but buyers are setting themselves up for failure if they don't take precautions particularly when buying an older horse. Funny how this was never mentioned in the show ....
		
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fortunately - it is only "buyer beware" in private sales. At least buying from a dealer (dodgy or not!) you are protected by consumer law. You expect a car to be as described, in a satisfactory condition on delivery and for it to remain so for a reasonable amount of time, if it is not - you are protected by the sales of goods act. This is exactly the same with a horse. Just because we become emotionally attached to them, does not change the law. Besides - dealers are supposed to be the experts and there are plenty of good honest dealers out there, who do find suitable horses for the buyer in question. This is an ideal way to buy in those instances as like I said, you have consumer protection.


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## horsesatemymoney (9 May 2013)

I imagine, even if he honoured his 14 day trial idea, he'd be pretty hard to deal with- seems like a forceful character with 'getting a sale' in the forfront of his mind. 

I agree that WD didn't give him a chance to put the problem right, I guess they could have tried but then kept the horses, but if they'd have given them back they'd be called fit to burn for passing back a horse with a problem and potentially letting somebody else buy it: hence why they 'palmed it off' on redwings as somebody else said- what were they meant to do with them? 

Pretty poor advice from WD though- really should advise vettings and taking an experienced friend. Can't help but wonder if their experienced friend chose the two dodgy looking ones to make good TV- doesn't excuse the fact that he was trying to sell them anyway though, and he's obviously got form.


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## whisp&willow (9 May 2013)

Montyforever said:



			Whispandwillow - if you go back a few pages I've commented as I know the horse/owners well, he's now 3 but when sold to them was 2 1/2  he's only being very lightly ridden now.
		
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Thanks MF-  I hadn't read the whole thread-  was on my lunch break and used most of it watching watchdog!  

Rolling is an awful habit- and one which is very hard to break once learned!  I used to ride a pony who tried to do this in the summer (sweaty) or when we were in the sea...!  She never got a chance to get down and roll though, frantic pony club kicks saw to that!

I wish your friends well for the future with him, and hope that they can overcome his naughty tendencies!

Picking up on a few recent replies:  

* no, a vetting (even a 5 stage one) can not  ensure a safe and sound purchase, but it will uncover some issues, and should generally be carried out.

* It is not the case that inexperienced owners/novice riders should not be able to go out and buy a horse. BUT it is important that they have the support and advice of more experienced people one of whom should not be the vendor!  likening the first time buyer of a horse to a first time parent is a bit much, and besides which, first time parents are not expected to go through the process without help, support and advice from professionals and friends with experience!

ets:  even experienced horse owners should (and many do!) bring another set of experienced eyes along with them when viewing a potential purchase... it's so easy to get swept away and miss glaring or niggling negatives in a horse.


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## Hippona (9 May 2013)

Montyforever said:



			I know the vetting would have shown up his age, which we are all more than aware of. 

The point of the program was that the horses are not being sold as described. He was described as being 4, 100% safe to ride, drive and handle. He is none of that (opposite infact!) and if a novice had taken him on there could have been a serious accident.
		
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No offense intended.....but no 4 year old is 100% safe to ride, drive and handle.

In fact I'd go so far as to say NO horse is 100% anything all the time....


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## Aarrghimpossiblepony (9 May 2013)

Montyforever said:



			Poiuytrewq - yep they still have him, he's only a baby and he's done a lot so it's understandable that he has issues bless him.
But the rolling/lying down when ridden isn't going away, he's learnt to use it as its an effective way of getting out of doing things and he's generally one to use his strength against you. (as I unfortunately found out ) 
I think with a lot of time/paitence he may get better but he's still spooky and unpredictable, and completely not as described by Kelly's cobs  he's lucky to be with my friends, don't think many other people would have put up with what they have.
		
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Tell your friends to turn him away and give him the time to grow up that he should have had when they got him.

Sorry, but he's three, broken far too early, and they still don't sound as if they are taking that into account.

Sick and tired of reading about "light hacking" as if that's not work for the pony/horse.
It'd not the physical exertion, it's the mental exertion of keeping impulses under control when they are too immature.

We're getting the same problems with children in this country. At school too young, expected to control their normal impulses too young, then wondering why they are turned off about the whole process years later.

Once again, sorry for the rant, but honestly when will people learn that all animals, including humans, need time to grow up.


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## *sprinkles* (9 May 2013)

Janeuk1 said:



			fortunately - it is only "buyer beware" in private sales. At least buying from a dealer (dodgy or not!) you are protected by consumer law. You expect a car to be as described, in a satisfactory condition on delivery and for it to remain so for a reasonable amount of time, if it is not - you are protected by the sales of goods act. This is exactly the same with a horse. Just because we become emotionally attached to them, does not change the law. Besides - dealers are supposed to be the experts and there are plenty of good honest dealers out there, who do find suitable horses for the buyer in question. This is an ideal way to buy in those instances as like I said, you have consumer protection.
		
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You're absolutely right! It's so funny how with horses things like the sales of goods act get forgotten as you never think of it applying to an animal! I'm in no way saying he is in the right at all. I just feel like the programme never touched on what to most horse people is quite a normal procedure of ensuring a vetting is completed before the horse is paid for which would have picked up on the problems they discovered in the horses that they bought. 

It's a real shame for the good dealers who get tarred with the same brush and distrusted due to companies like Kelly's Cobs. I bought both of my current horses from dealers and they have been fantastic.


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## EmbroideryQueen (9 May 2013)

I bought a horse, after having it vetted, and it still turned out to have behavioural problems that could not be cured and I finally had to have the poor thing put down   The vet found no physical issues and the dealer (West Midlands area, also runs a riding school) would not take the horse back. I took a hugely experienced older friend with me but it only became apparent a week after buying the horse that there was a problem.

I paid to have him professionally re-schooled twice after he had dumped me on the road amongst other things, and neither yard were able to sort out his problems and he was deemed too dangerous to ride, hence the sad decision to have him put to sleep.

Trading Standards are a toothless tiger I am afraid and so I lost over 5K plus re-schooling fees x 2 and gained a lot of stress and worry and everything ended badly.

I have subsequently bought two horses, both sight unseen, one with and one without a vetting and both have been little gems and are still going strong after several years.  

So sorry to all those of you who believe that a vetting or experienced friend is the answer to every horse buying woe because it isn't, and you are naive to think so in my opinion. Caveat emptor is a meaningless phrase too and used by smug people to illustrate the so-called stupidity of the often well-meaning buyer rather than the crooked seller (not saying that all sellers are crooked of course.  I have sold horses and been very honest about them).


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## galaxy (9 May 2013)

I don't think anyone has said that if you have a vetting and an experienced friend you will never have a problem. But the odds of issues are significantly reduced if you do.


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## whisp&willow (9 May 2013)

I don't think that any of us has said that having a vetting or experienced companion is going to ensure a safe or sound purchase, but it is best practice, and in many cases may prevent inexperienced people ending up with a totally unsuitable horse.

Every purchase carries risk.  We have only ever bought 2 horses-  one I mentioned earlier, turned out to be significantly older than we had thought, but this did not affect the pony or its abilities etc.  We had teething problems- the pony was very sharp and it took my sister a few weeks to get her confidence on her-  but once she did they were a formidable team!  This is to be expected with every new horse!  We all need settling in time, and need to get to know each other.

The other was bought as a 2 yr old, and is still going strong now at rising 19.  Broken by myself, but I had plenty of support from knowledgeable friends and instructors.

I must say neither were vetted, and both were viewed only by me and my family.  I am the pot calling the kettle black here, as I was only about 10 or 11 when we bought Whisp (the then 2 yr old) and 15/16 when we bought tego. I was however experienced and confident in my abilities to judge the horses. (as I'm sure everyone is! )  Both were private sales, and we are still in touch with the sellers after all these years.  I guess we have been lucky.

If I were to go out to view a horse now, I would bring a friend, and based on what I would be looking to buy, I would have it vetted.  I would then cross my fingers, as you just never know...


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## cappucino (9 May 2013)

galaxy said:



			I don't think anyone has said that if you have a vetting and an experienced friend you will never have a problem. But the odds of issues are significantly reduced if you do.
		
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I agree, I don't think that anyone has said that having a vetting and experienced friend will ensure all is well.

I am in no way excusing the dodgy dealer who clearly just wanted to make money from the horses, not caring if people were hurt and lied in his descriptions. I wouldn't be at all surprised if all the horses they try to sell are deemed 'suitable for a novice' but I might just be being cynical!

But in the cases shown a vetting should have identified the future problems (I did say should as it is not definite).

In my opinion it would have been interesting to see what would have happened had they requested a vetting prior to purchase, I would also like to have seen his reaction to them returning the horses, and what excuses he made regarding refunds etc. I'm sure we can all imagine what his reaction would have been!!! 

It would also have been interesting if they had tried to sell him a horse, describing certain issues which would have made the horse unsuitable for a novice, and then tried to go and buy the horse for a novice!! Or an older horse to see if it miraculously lost a few years!


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## pip6 (9 May 2013)

Not against vettings, if I was looking for an expensive purchase I'd probably get one done (knowing one lady who bought 6 yr old for 20k & it has degenerative bone disease - would have been known to seller). However I've bought 3 horses, none vetted. Word of mouth means so much. The first I had on loan for 2 years before I bought her aged 19, had her for another 10 amazing years. Second bought aged 4 from a lady in sport I wanted to do with good reputation. Knew horses faults/level training /age, totally up front about everything, too me to advanced level in 5 years. Third was unridable broodmare through our vet, knew her injury, bought her for pence. She's produced 2 stunning & talented fillies in 7 years, about to drop her 3rd foal. Vettings have their place when buying from strangers, but gut instinct, asking about locally and in the sphere you want to compete are also very valuable resources.


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## GeeGeeboy (9 May 2013)

Just watched the episode , poor Loppy and Queenie.


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## LovesCobs (9 May 2013)

*sprinkles* said:



			You're absolutely right! It's so funny how with horses things like the sales of goods act get forgotten as you never think of it applying to an animal! I'm in no way saying he is in the right at all. I just feel like the programme never touched on what to most horse people is quite a normal procedure of ensuring a vetting is completed before the horse is paid for which would have picked up on the problems they discovered in the horses that they bought. 

It's a real shame for the good dealers who get tarred with the same brush and distrusted due to companies like Kelly's Cobs. I bought both of my current horses from dealers and they have been fantastic.
		
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I've not read all answers but I have to disagree with the protection you have when buying from a dealer. I bought from a supposed good dealer, it went very wrong. I had loads of evidence including video of the dealer saying she was suitable for a nervous rider (she was bought to stay with my lot but for my friend who is a beginner and needed to be suitable for her). she was vetted. I have also had professional opinions that would stand up in court from vets, farriers and BHS AI instructors who agree that she needs re - breaking from scratch and that it was far more than settling in issues. I have a horse and 2 ponies at home, I'm by no means a professional but I'm not completely stupid as to how to settle a horse in and this went far beyond that.
I found the 'protection' with consumer rights is rubbish. Dealers often have little or no assets, if you win in court you get an agreement for them to pay you back a tiny amount a month (if your lucky, if not they just take the CCJ) I don't know anyone that has got their money back. Trading standards are rubbish, and the dealers change their name (this one did).
My advice, to myself now as well, is to pay with a credit card, even if you offer to pay the 3% fee that a business pays the credit card company. this way if you win then the card company pays you back. other than that the protection you supposedly get when going through a dealer is not really worth much (not just my story, in going through it I made contact with quite a few people in the same situation with small claims).
i'm sure there are good dealers and I thought I'd researched this one, I was wrong, I didn't dig hard enough
lesson learnt, she is now my summer project after going for professional breaking first. she's currently worth less than 1/2 of what was paid and windsucks (but didn't on the vetting as she does it after feed!)
its a shame we cant name and shame on here, we would save each other from a few bad dealers and get a good idea of the good ones


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## foxy1 (9 May 2013)

The owner who part exchanged her injured horse should be ashamed of herself.


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## onemoretime (9 May 2013)

pippixox said:



			I think somehow people get an idea in their head that if its  from a dealer it is a business so you don't need vetting- which is most definitely wrong!
people trust someone they think is a professional, it is such a shame you cant
		
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You're dead right there Pippi!!!


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## onemoretime (9 May 2013)

Annie0809 said:



			Could do with a 'Tripadvisor' for Horse dealers, name and shame the bad guys and highlight the reputable ones.
You put any bad experiences on forums they get taken off for being slanderous...
		
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Yes, we certainly do need a Tripadvisor for horse dealers that would be an excellent idea and would certainly help a lot of people when looking for a new horse.  People should be able to tell each other when they have been duped into buying a horse.


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## onemoretime (9 May 2013)

amymay said:



			And therein lies the problem.

Dodgy dealers, and people unwilling to face up to their responsibilities.
		
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A receipe for disaster!!


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## TommisMum (10 May 2013)

We had something similar.
Show pony - aged 12, proven track experience. Tried several times before buying. More than one opinion sought. (I have had horse for 20+yrs)
5* vetting .... but no xrays. Due to price and insurance.
Bought from dealer.

2 weeks into light work pony starts to fall down - Not roll due to naughtiness - just fall down when saddle put on.

Fortunately traced previous owner who had sold pony to dealer as a comanion/brood mare because of this known problem.
Prev Owner and Vet both prepared to go to court with me to see pony was not as sold and I got my money back.

However there was the emotional side for my daughter as she had already fallen for the pony.....

So even with care we can all be done ...


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## KellysCobs (11 May 2013)

Hello, this is David from KellysCobs, I have read the posts here and would like to thank its contributors as unlike facebook etc. its not full of death threats and other silly childish remarks, but mainly balanced mature comments. While I accept in light of Watchdog we at KellysCobs are going to have a very hard time defending ourselves as its a case of Judge, Jury and executioner without the right to appeal on TV  and sadly most people believe if its on TV then it must be true. In saying that we have been heartened by the level of support we have had from genuine customers who have actually dealt with us rather than the keyboard warriors who just believe what they want to believe. I am happy to answer any sensible questions you may have and hopefully we back my answers up with provable fact. I will not respond to silly comments that serve no genuine purpose in this debate. I will also add, if anyone wishes to visit our premises for genuine reason of concern over animal welfare etc then you are welcome to do so and I will be happy to talk with them over a coffee. To add I have pasted a letter from trading standards who are fully aware of this and are very supportive.

Hi David

I have no problem in confirming that we are currently working with you and we have been working with you prior to the Watchdog broadcast in all aspects of your business, from your animal welfare obligations to your e-commerce and terms and conditions. I can also confirm that to date you have responded positively to the advice offered and have taken steps to comply with Trading Standards requirements. If the magazines wish for me to confirm this directly to them, feel free to pass on my contact details.

Regards

Andy Woad
Trading Standards Enforcement Officer

North Lincolnshire Council
Places Directorate
Church Square House
Scunthorpe
North Lincolnshire
DN15 6XQ

Tel 01724 297654
Fax 01724 297895
www.northlincs.gov.uk/tradingstandards


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## kat2290 (11 May 2013)

This thread just keeps on getting better


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## Polos Mum (11 May 2013)

David - I couldn't possible condone your actions selling unsuitable horses to unsuitable buyers, I don't believe you can't tell a hopping lame horse from a sound one or a 12 y/o from a 26 y/o

However I do think some of the blame should rest with the selfish previous owners who instead of putting to sleep their 26 year olds/ perminantly injured horses at home like they absolutely should, they sell them as a 'companion' to a dealer!  If people took responsibilty for these horses in the first place you would be out of business because you wouldn't have anything to sell.

I think the 'heartbroken' previous owners should be ashamed of themselves.


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## mightymammoth (11 May 2013)

I agree with everything you've said there polos mum. People are so kean to pass on there responsibilities these days it's frightening and 9 times out of 10 its the horses that suffer.


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## Adopter (11 May 2013)

I do agree with the above responsible owners should not pass on horses which can no longer be ridden without safe guards. A better passport system would address some of this.
David credit to you for trying to answer the questions, I did think you came across on the programme as prepared to talk to Watchdog which most traders do not and I felt they were not interested in your response as it would not make good TV. I hope that you are able to do as you say above and continue working to improve the service you offer and find ways to help novice owners make suitable choices. My concerns are for the improvement in conditions and welfare for all horses and ponies and educating people to look after them properly.


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## KellysCobs (11 May 2013)

Morning Polo Mum, thanks you for your sensible post and as stated in my first post I will back up where possible my responses with provable fact. We purchased Loppy from the person named below and had no reason to doubt what she claimed which was her dentist aged Loppy at 16/17. Im sure we all appreciate how difficult it is to age a horse over 10, as proven in the Watchdog program when the vet at Redwings stated 20 to 25 a five year window to allow for inaccuracy. Is it not fair to allow us the same tolerance of five years 16 to 21 ?. Could I ask you for your opinion on viewing the clip of Loppy on Watchdog leaping about like a youngster, did she look more like a 16  or a 25 ?. I do accept this is all very subjective and cant be proven one way or another unless the breeder comes forward with a date of foaling but what can be proven is the fact we were told a dentist had aged the horse and thats the age we sold her as. We have tried contacting the seller both via email and facebook to establish which dentist aged Loppy and so far she has failed to respond. Another point is Loppy was vetted extensively by Watchdog and other than a old scar which the vet admitted did not affect her she passed with flying colours, the only other comment the vet stated in a letter from Watchdog to us was she was needle shy when blood samples were taken. Now how many 16 year olds let alone 25 year olds pass a vetting ?. 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
My email to person who sold us Loppy


Hi its David from Kellyscobs who bought Loppy from you. We have had a enquiry from Trading Standards about Loppys age. Please see email below where you say your dentist says 16/17 established by your dentist. Could you kindly let us have details of your dentist so we can argue back as they say Loppy was 20 plus. 

Many Thanks

David 
-------- Original Message --------
Subject: 
From: [Personal Information Removed]
Date: Tue, January 22, 2013 8:01 am
To: sales@kellyscobs.co.uk

shes 16.1 irish draft x, grey mare she is really lovely but has her moments a typical mare. shes a real cross country machines jumps anything in her path not found anything that scares her. she is excellent on roads and to hack out will go behind but orefers to be infront and does get giddy in a collecting ring. no dangerous but cn put in a rear if she is held tight i just usually keep her loose and trotting date of births unknown on passport but dentist rekons about 16,17 but you wouldnt believe it she has a scar on her right hind leg from a barb wire accident but has always been found and vet says it will never cause her a problem open to vet check £1200 or nearest offer  x x


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## JFTDWS (11 May 2013)

I really think that at the very least you should have removed the email address from that post.


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## KellysCobs (11 May 2013)

Morning Adopter. Again thank you your balanced comments and thank you for your comment on my interview with Watchdog. I can assure you inside I was shaking as when fifteen people with five cameras jump out at you with all sorts of accusations its well lets say refreshing. The interview in fact went on for fifteen to twenty mins where I invited them to inspect every horse on the yard (40 plus) along with all the paperwork/passports, this they declined. They constantly referred to how dangerous it is to sell a lame horse to a child. I pointed out we didnt sell Queenie to a child but to a very experienced middle aged lady who knew what she was taking about. Can I ask given that we do refund in full as proven on Watchdog by the lady they interviewed Jane Arkle that we do in fact refund if a horse fails vetting and in full. What did we have to gain selling a lame horse? Queenie was a lovely horse (a tad grumpy) and we were not aware of any lameness. The lameness was discovered after doing flexion tests and then xrays were taken to discover a small fracture. Watchdog went on to claim Queenie is so bad she will have to be put to sleep. Can I ask this forums opinion on if Queenie is so bad and in such pain with no chance of recovery (as stated in the program) then why do they not as sad as it is do the correct thing and put the horse to sleep now, rather than in 2 years as they stated would happen. I have my own opinion but would like yours. I will add with both horses watchdog purchased a full refund was offered.

The national average of horses being vetted that fail is above 30 percent, most fail on lameness after flexion tests. This is regardless of the horse being £500 or £50000 and by dealers or private sellers. Were all these sellers guilty of knowingly selling a lame horse, I suggest not. So far I have received 4 death threats and scores of other threats. What have I done differently to all the other sellers whos horses go on to fail a purchase vetting?. This is not me whimpering or crying about my treatment, but like I did in the program its me defending myself against in my view unfair biased accusations.  

Regards

David


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## KellysCobs (11 May 2013)

With regards removing the email address from my posts, if I did I would be accused of writing the email myself. I stated in my first post I will respond with provable replys. This is a genuine email sent us.

Regards


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## KellysCobs (11 May 2013)

Reply to Adaptor.  We are now looking into the costs of having every horse pre-vetted with the customer still having the option of re-vetting if so desired. Hopefully this will help this not happening again and as you suggested help novice purchases in the future.

Regards


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## Montyforever (11 May 2013)

But David, it doesn't excuse the fact that you sold my friends a 4 year old "safe" cob for children. 

And he was 2 at the time of sale, rolls when ridden, barges, and is generally a very uncoordinated youngster who causes accidents just by being clumsy. The first thing we said when he came off the lorry at our yard was that he looked younger than 4, and when they had the vet out he was confirmed as a 2 year old. 

He landed me in a&e with torn ligaments and a dislocated shoulder when I was just leading him down to the field. I accept horses will be horses and it has it's risks but you sold that horse as SAFE FOR CHILDREN! 

You are a dodgy dealer, one case of the horse not being as described is forgiveable, but you do it over and over and over again.


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## JenJ (11 May 2013)

KellysCobs said:



			With regards removing the email address from my posts, if I did I would be accused of writing the email myself. I stated in my first post I will respond with provable replys. This is a genuine email sent us.

Regards
		
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No you wouldn't be accused of that. I suspect it's against T&Cs of the site, and am certain that it is against forum etiquette to publish another's email address.

I watched the program and felt that watchdog did a poor job and came out looking a little silly. Thanks for coming on here and putting your side.

Please edit your post and remove the address.


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## JFTDWS (11 May 2013)

KellysCobs said:



			With regards removing the email address from my posts, if I did I would be accused of writing the email myself. I stated in my first post I will respond with provable replys. This is a genuine email sent us.

Regards
		
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It's not good form to publish people's personal email addresses on public fora.  I have reported it to Admin as it is too late to edit it now, and they can decide if it's acceptable or not.

I understand your motivation, but that doesn't make what you're doing right.


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## foxy1 (11 May 2013)

Montyforever said:



			But David, it doesn't excuse the fact that you sold my friends a 4 year old "safe" cob for children. 

And he was 2 at the time of sale, rolls when ridden, barges, and is generally a very uncoordinated youngster who causes accidents just by being clumsy. The first thing we said when he came off the lorry at our yard was that he looked younger than 4, and when they had the vet out he was confirmed as a 2 year old. 

He landed me in a&e with torn ligaments and a dislocated shoulder when I was just leading him down to the field. I accept horses will be horses and it has it's risks but you sold that horse as SAFE FOR CHILDREN! 

You are a dodgy dealer, one case of the horse not being as described is forgiveable, but you do it over and over and over again.
		
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Do people really think any 4 year old is 'safe' for children?


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## KellysCobs (11 May 2013)

Morning. With regard Flash or Woody as the customer renamed him. You state the vet aged the horse at two? Well what age does the passport say which was not done by us btw (we will post the passport details if required) It says four ( if memory serves me correctly) and that was done again by a qualified vet for the breeder. So we now have 2 vets with different opinions. To be honest its a difficult one to answer as I do rely on professionals to age the horse correctly. What is interesting is if you were of the opinion the horse was two, why was it not returned and why were you riding it? Again Im the first to accept we like all make mistakes, but they are genuine mistakes.

Regards 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

But David, it doesn't excuse the fact that you sold my friends a 4 year old "safe" cob for children. 

And he was 2 at the time of sale, rolls when ridden, barges, and is generally a very uncoordinated youngster who causes accidents just by being clumsy. The first thing we said when he came off the lorry at our yard was that he looked younger than 4, and when they had the vet out he was confirmed as a 2 year old. 

He landed me in a&e with torn ligaments and a dislocated shoulder when I was just leading him down to the field. I accept horses will be horses and it has it's risks but you sold that horse as SAFE FOR CHILDREN! 

You are a dodgy dealer, one case of the horse not being as described is forgiveable, but you do it over and over and over again.


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## KellysCobs (11 May 2013)

Update on Woody.  Kelly has just informed me we did offer a full refund after the customer had the horse vetted but this was declined as she wished to keep the horse. Can I suggest if you were of the opinion the horse was only 2, yet you continued to ride the horse you may have contributed to any negative behaviour the horse may have. Not wanting to be  argumentative but it does raise questions that you could answer. If the its to be believed the horse was two it would now still be under 3 so really I feel you have to shoulder some responsibility given the fact a refund was offered.

Regards


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## KellysCobs (11 May 2013)

Hi JenJ.   Yes thinking about it I think your right and will remove the email address now, my motive was to prove genuine but can see your point and dont want my threads removed. Thank you for your comment about me coming on here and provided any comment is sensible I will stay and answer accordingly. I did try the same on facebook but was inundated by children making all sort of silly threats and comments.

Regards

David


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## KellysCobs (11 May 2013)

I have tried to remove the email address, but cant seem to find anywhere to edit it. Regards


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## JenJ (11 May 2013)

KellysCobs said:



			I have tried to remove the email address, but cant seem to find anywhere to edit it. Regards
		
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No, as JFTD pointed out above it's too late for an edit, as that only lasts for about 5 minutes or so after making the post. I have reported it to admin and so has JFTD, so either admin will decide it's fine and leave it as it is, or edit your post themselves.


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## dunkley (11 May 2013)

KellysCobs said:



			Morning. With regard Flash or Woody as the customer renamed him. You state the vet aged the horse at two? Well what age does the passport say which was not done by us btw (we will post the passport details if required) It says four ( if memory serves me correctly) and that was done again by a qualified vet for the breeder. So we now have 2 vets with different opinions. To be honest its a difficult one to answer as I do rely on professionals to age the horse correctly. What is interesting is if you were of the opinion the horse was two, why was it not returned and why were you riding it? Again Im the first to accept we like all make mistakes, but they are genuine mistakes.

Regards 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
		
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I find it difficult to accept that someone such as yourself, who I assume is an experienced horseman with many years, and hundreds of horses, under his belt, cannot check in a horse's mouth for age.  We are not talking of the somewhat less easy to see changes in an 'aged' horse (other than the obvious sloping teeth of something that is positively ancient), but relatively simple interpretation of 'baby' teeth.  A dealer local to me ('proper' horseman/nagsman) can accurately age most horses within a year or two, especially at such a young age.  He also has no problems with imparting his findings to prospective purchaser - accurately.  May I suggest that, if you are not confident in aging by dentition, despite your experience, that you find a local, qualified, equine dentist who will more than happily do a proper dental examination/ageing on all your new acquisitions, and provide a written record.  This would counter any possible allegations that you are being less than open about horses' ages.  The cost is usually around £40-£50 which, 1) could be included in the selling price and 2), is less £s and less grief than bad publicity.  In fact, if you use the same dentist regularly, I bet s/he would do you a deal.


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## Montyforever (11 May 2013)

Woody was aged as 2.5 in december. Which makes him just turned 3 now although the age you sold him as would mean he is supposed to be 5. He was obviously being ridden (and driven!) at the time of sale by you/your staff. When my friend discovered this she was out of the 2 week "exchange period".
He has since been turned away and lightly hacked recently. But a lot of damage has been done to his behaviour/temperament already.

I can't comment on the age on his passport, as I don't own him. I'm just going by what my friend was told by a qualified vet and my own personal opinion of what a 2 year old looks like and a 4 year old looks like and behaves like.


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## KellysCobs (11 May 2013)

Morning Dunkley. Yes I agree I can age a horse from 2 to 4 quiet easily. I accept your comments that  either myself or a member of staff could have made a mistake in this case. I must confess I do rely on passport ages too much believing a vet is more qualified than I but I am well aware vets get it wrong all the time. So yes I accept your criticism and will look at improving this aspect of our business. Regards


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## horseluver4eva (11 May 2013)

Sorry if this has already been asked as i have not read through the whole thread. But how come when you class horses as 'safe' horses they then go on to their next owner and become dangerous? Yes i appreciate the fact that you offer a 14 day trial but i do not understand why if a horse is so 'safe' it then goes on to become so  'dangerous' within a number of days. I do agree with some points you have made as you are selling the horse as it was sold to you; but surely if a horse was given to you without an age on passport and an estimation of age then you would get somebody to check before you purchased the horse rather than going off what the seller says? I have personally been through this myself, and finding out your horse is a lot older than stated really does make you mad! You may not then be able to go on and do as you initially wanted to with the horse; i know your a dealer but you still should make sure all facts are correct before purchase because as it is happening now it not only causes trouble for the buyer but is also ruining your reputation. Some comments you have said do seem genuine and comments ive seen on facebook are unfair, i apologise if i sound harsh but it is not only you the seller and the buyer involved but also a horse which is helpless in this situation.Regards.


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## KellysCobs (11 May 2013)

Montyforever said:



			Woody was aged as 2.5 in december. Which makes him just turned 3 now although the age you sold him as would mean he is supposed to be 5. He was obviously being ridden (and driven!) at the time of sale by you/your staff. When my friend discovered this she was out of the 2 week "exchange period".
He has since been turned away and lightly hacked recently. But a lot of damage has been done to his behaviour/temperament already.

I can't comment on the age on his passport, as I don't own him. I'm just going by what my friend was told by a qualified vet and my own personal opinion of what a 2 year old looks like and a 4 year old looks like and behaves like.
		
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Hi Montyforever

In reply, the refund was offered by us regardless of time scale and it was refused. I can clear up the passport age, it says 4.


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## KellysCobs (11 May 2013)

horseluver4eva said:



			Sorry if this has already been asked as i have not read through the whole thread. But how come when you class horses as 'safe' horses they then go on to their next owner and become dangerous? Yes i appreciate the fact that you offer a 14 day trial but i do not understand why if a horse is so 'safe' it then goes on to become so  'dangerous' within a number of days. I do agree with some points you have made as you are selling the horse as it was sold to you; but surely if a horse was given to you without an age on passport and an estimation of age then you would get somebody to check before you purchased the horse rather than going off what the seller says? I have personally been through this myself, and finding out your horse is a lot older than stated really does make you mad! You may not then be able to go on and do as you initially wanted to with the horse; i know your a dealer but you still should make sure all facts are correct before purchase because as it is happening now it not only causes trouble for the buyer but is also ruining your reputation. Some comments you have said do seem genuine and comments ive seen on facebook are unfair, i apologise if i sound harsh but it is not only you the seller and the buyer involved but also a horse which is helpless in this situation.Regards.
		
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Hi horseluver4eva

You do not seem harsh at all and I welcome you comments. With hind sight I wish I aged the horse myself but I didnt so accept your comments. Can I ask you to be more specific about me describing a horse as safe and then it turning dangerous, could you tell me the horse your referring to. 

Regards


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## LollyDolly (11 May 2013)

I don't have any questions to ask, however I did just want to mention that I felt that Watchdog was wrong for not letting David explain his side of the story, the programme was very poorly done and personally I would have rather heard both sides of the argument as I don't like to make a judgement without knowing the full truth. 

David, I just want to commend you on how well you have handled this situation and how you are keeping very calm and rational, and I am glad that we can hear your side of the story as well.


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## Lambkins (11 May 2013)

I would like to add my pony is 100% rising 6 ..I know that for a fact (owned since a baby ) dentist said he has a slightly immature mouth (more like 4-5) ..I also know to have happened to friends horses ..just saying its not always as cut and dry as people think .. Also some 2-3 year olds look like typical babies ..and others do not .. So yes mistakes can happen ..and it's trying to keep these mistakes to the minimum .. Sounds like Kelly's cob have offered to refund ..so sounds fair to me .. ??


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## SatsumaGirl (11 May 2013)

^ My big lad turned 6 the other day. I've had him since a yearling/know the breeder. Had the dentist out for his yearly check last month and was told he actually had the mouth of a rising 5yo, due to half the teeth that should be through by now, still making their way.

I do think this is going to be one of those situations that keeps rolling and rolling. 

As said before, whilst I get what Watchdog was trying to achieve, I believe a more balanced approach should have been taken from both sides. As ever, one-sided arguments make good viewing and that's clearly what they were after- the scandal and 'shock factor' if you will.


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## kinnygirl1 (11 May 2013)

LollyDolly said:



			I don't have any questions to ask, however I did just want to mention that I felt that Watchdog was wrong for not letting David explain his side of the story, the programme was very poorly done and personally I would have rather heard both sides of the argument as I don't like to make a judgement without knowing the full truth. 

David, I just want to commend you on how well you have handled this situation and how you are keeping very calm and rational, and I am glad that we can hear your side of the story as well.
		
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@kellyscobs ^^ this. Do also want to commend you on coming on here and trying to anwser questions.  I haven't bought a horse from you but did buy a horse from another dealer who turned  out to be a lot younger than they stated. I found out when I got the equine dentist out as although I had a vetting the vet didn't pick up on the age issue.  Im my case, luckily it has worked out fine, but I can understand how devastating a mistake like that can be for both the horse and owner.

Can I ask what you plan to do in the future differently to stop some of these issues from re occurring?

Thanks


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## KellysCobs (11 May 2013)

kinnygirl1 said:



			@kellyscobs ^^ this. Do also want to commend you on coming on here and trying to anwser questions.  I haven't bought a horse from you but did buy a horse from another dealer who turned  out to be a lot younger than they stated. I found out when I got the equine dentist out as although I had a vetting the vet didn't pick up on the age issue.  Im my case, luckily it has worked out fine, but I can understand how devastating a mistake like that can be for both the horse and owner.

Can I ask what you plan to do in the future differently to stop some of these issues from re occurring?

Thanks
		
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Hi Kinnygirl1

Thank you for your comments and Im happy to answer all questions. In answer to yours about future plans, we are looking in to having all horses pre-vetted at our expense while still allowing the customer to have there own independent vetting to be done to avoid any accusation of bias, hopefully this could help with this issue not happening again. Regards


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## teasle (11 May 2013)

Hi- Kellyscobs, as you seem willing to answer questions about your business, can you explain how you are linked to the other busnesses known as Bombproof, Lazy plods, and Crack on. These were busnesses that earned a bad reputation for selling dodgy horses. It seemed that some horse dealing businesses have many more unhappy customers than others.


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## KellysCobs (11 May 2013)

teasle said:



			Hi- Kellyscobs, as you seem willing to answer questions about your business, can you explain how you are linked to the other busnesses known as Bombproof, Lazy plods, and Crack on. These were busnesses that earned a bad reputation for selling dodgy horses. It seemed that some horse dealing businesses have many more unhappy customers than others.
		
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Hi teasle, I have had this levelled at me before and the answer is very easy. I have no connection whatsoever. The only common factor is a surname "Thomas". I have heard of these companies and am aware they were run by a Louise Thomas. 

Regards

David


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## teasle (11 May 2013)

Thank you for your reply and clearing that up.


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## cattysmith (11 May 2013)

kellyscobs...my husband has been desperate for a loooong time to see someone get one up on that irritating reporter and was mightily impressed with just how you managed to do so!


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## s4sugar (11 May 2013)

What about Horse Imports, Horsebids, Melwood Stables, Happy Hackers, Online-24-Seven, Misterton Carr Stables & Puppy Paradise?


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## cattysmith (11 May 2013)

I also need to add that even "professionals" can misjudge ageing a horse by its teeth. I had a dentist last year try to tell me my horse was in her late 30s when I know for a fact that she's 18/19. I have pictures of her as a youngster from my friend who bought her from a local lady. Of course people seem to go with the "professional"'s opinion because they feel they can't ever be wrong...


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## JandP (11 May 2013)

I haven't watched the program and don't know the background, so this is not a comment on this specific dealer.

To be honest I don't even know how and why dealers for horses for 'novices' exist.

A true and genuine schoolmaster is a rare animal indeed, and does not just happen by accident - it happens by the horse firstly having the right temperament, and secondly by having the right start in life.  These horses are never just 'discarded' into dealers yards.  They are too well loved, and too much in demand!  People can sell these genuine horses a thousand times over for decent money.

If you want a genuine schoolmaster, you will never find it in a dealers yard.  Or if you do, you have had a massive stroke of luck.

I don't think all dealers are dodgy, but their place is in the competition world, where people are not expecting a patent safety schoolmaster (which the vast majority of horses are not).

I do believe people are so naïve when it comes to buying horses now - horses are not machines, and a vetting does not guarantee anything, but please people - at least start by looking for them in the right place otherwise you shouldn't be surprised at what you end up with!


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## Tinypony (11 May 2013)

JandP said:



			I haven't watched the program and don't know the background, so this is not a comment on this specific dealer.

To be honest I don't even know how and why dealers for horses for 'novices' exist.

A true and genuine schoolmaster is a rare animal indeed, and does not just happen by accident - it happens by the horse firstly having the right temperament, and secondly by having the right start in life.  These horses are never just 'discarded' into dealers yards.  They are too well loved, and too much in demand!  People can sell these genuine horses a thousand times over for decent money.

If you want a genuine schoolmaster, you will never find it in a dealers yard.  Or if you do, you have had a massive stroke of luck.

I don't think all dealers are dodgy, but their place is in the competition world, where people are not expecting a patent safety schoolmaster (which the vast majority of horses are not).

I do believe people are so naïve when it comes to buying horses now - horses are not machines, and a vetting does not guarantee anything, but please people - at least start by looking for them in the right place otherwise you shouldn't be surprised at what you end up with!
		
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Of course there are dealers who sell schoolmasters.  Schoolmasters do change hands from time to time, and they aren't always sold privately.


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## foxy1 (11 May 2013)

I think people need to appreciate how horses can change in a new enviroment. I bought a gelding from a friend a few years ago and if I hadn't known the horse for years beforehand I would have thought she had sold me a lunatic! He settled in a few weeks though and was fine thereafter. They are animals not machines.


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## teasle (11 May 2013)

foxy1 said:



			I think people need to appreciate how horses can change in a new enviroment. I bought a gelding from a friend a few years ago and if I hadn't known the horse for years beforehand I would have thought she had sold me a lunatic! He settled in a few weeks though and was fine thereafter. They are animals not machines.
		
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That is very true  but surely applies to all horses sold. Nevertheless, some deaing businesses do seem to have many unhappy customers, and their issues are often more serious ( ie health issues) than a bit of unsettled behaviour.


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## KellysCobs (11 May 2013)

s4sugar said:



			What about Horse Imports, Horsebids, Melwood Stables, Happy Hackers, Online-24-Seven, Misterton Carr Stables & Puppy Paradise?
		
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Hi S4Sugar

Yes my past has been very well documented and penalties served. But does a past automatically prove guilt ?  It is because of my past and my concerns about repeating the same mistakes I have involved Trading Standards in every stage of Kellyscobs from conception to present day and they have been extremely supportive. They have moved on from my past and recognised a very different approach and attitude from myself. Please find listed again a email from Trading Standards.

Hi David

I have no problem in confirming that we are currently working with you and we have been working with you prior to the Watchdog broadcast in all aspects of your business, from your animal welfare obligations to your e-commerce and terms and conditions. I can also confirm that to date you have responded positively to the advice offered and have taken steps to comply with Trading Standards requirements. If the magazines wish for me to confirm this directly to them, feel free to pass on my contact details.

Regards

Andy Woad
Trading Standards Enforcement Officer

North Lincolnshire Council
Places Directorate
Church Square House
Scunthorpe
North Lincolnshire
DN15 6XQ

Tel 01724 297654
Fax 01724 297895
www.northlincs.gov.uk/tradingstandards


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## s4sugar (11 May 2013)

Yes I read that email earlier and also where you asked how to remove it from the forum.

Does a past automatically prove guilt? No.

Does a leopard change it's spots?


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## KellysCobs (11 May 2013)

cattysmith said:



			I also need to add that even "professionals" can misjudge ageing a horse by its teeth. I had a dentist last year try to tell me my horse was in her late 30s when I know for a fact that she's 18/19. I have pictures of her as a youngster from my friend who bought her from a local lady. Of course people seem to go with the "professional"'s opinion because they feel they can't ever be wrong...
		
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Thanks for this post and fully agree, its very difficult and if honest can only ever be a best guess situation after a certain age. I wonder if Watchdog would have stated the horse was 16 had I sold it as 25 years old if it served there story better ? and for those who saw the program with Loppy jumping about would you say she looked 16 or 25 ??

Regards

David


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## KellysCobs (11 May 2013)

Yes I read that email earlier and also where you asked how to remove it from the forum.

Does a past automatically prove guilt? No.

Does a leopard change it's spots?

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Well all I can do is put the best defence forward and let you decide that.


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## weebarney (11 May 2013)

KellysCobs said:



			Thanks for this post and fully agree, its very difficult and if honest can only ever be a best guess situation after a certain age. I wonder if Watchdog would have stated the horse was 16 had I sold it as 25 years old if it served there story better ? and for those who saw the program with Loppy jumping about would you say she looked 16 or 25 ??

Regards

David
		
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I'll be honest about loppy and while watching the programme I thought i was being cautious at ageing it 20. The horse looked very sweet but also old.


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## lannerch (11 May 2013)

Have not read all the posts but did see the program with my totally non horsey friend, his view was that watchdog did not really give the dealer a chance, if the dealer offered a 14 day refund , then if the person did not discover any major faults in that 14 day period, that was there fault and in his opinion the dealer sounded very reasonable and was being unfairly picked on by watchdog !


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## JandP (11 May 2013)

Tinypony said:



			Of course there are dealers who sell schoolmasters.  Schoolmasters do change hands from time to time, and they aren't always sold privately.
		
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I can't think why anyone would send a loved and treasured member of the family to a dealer given the choice (I appreciate some circumstances may arise where it is unavoidable - death or bankruptcy!), why would you do that??


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## Camel (11 May 2013)

I stated earlier that I didn't think you were given a 'fair trial' as such, you weren't allowed to defend yourself and that irritating smug feck of a reporter (High five Cattysmiths OH!  ) just made a joke of the whole programme! 

You could be the absolute dealer from hell (I remember Misterton Carr and Horse Imports ) but came across better than everyone else featured in the programme IMO - so Watchdog shot themselves in the foot!

Now can I have a free (sound and under 20  ) Ardennes for being so nice please thankyou !!

xx


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## ladyt25 (11 May 2013)

Kellyscobs, I applaud you for posting as opposed to shirking it off and hiding away. I don't agree with your practices as you evidently have a history of poor dealings both with horses and dogs seemingly!

However, I think Watchdog did a poor job at 'exposing' you as a dodgy dealer. Firstly, with Loppy, sure, that horse was blatantly 'aged'. However, I do not have a lot of trust in vets ageing a horse by it's teeth and I am not convinced that horse was 25. She seemed a perfectly nice animal and therefore their 'proof' in that instance was weak.

As for Genie, again they failed there to show any real 'dodgy deal' had occurred. In my opinion they should have blood tested that horse as soon as they removed it from your yard so that they could tell whether you had purposefully hidden the lameness issue. As it was they didn't do that and in fact all we saw was a sound horse being trotted up and ridden and then an endclip of a vet saying it was lame and had "broken bones" in it's leg (no actual explanation to what though - one can only assume he meant a crumbling of a joint?).

They also did not test you on whether you were true to your word re the trial and return. I think that would have been a crucial part of them 'exposing' you.

In addition they should have stated that 'novice' people buying horses should alway take an experienced person with them to advise.

As for the lady who bought the 4 yo that turned out to be younger, I know the friend of hers is on here but she should never had bought a 4 yo for a child/novice anyway whether you said it was 'bombproof' or not. They clearly were not experienced enough to buy horses and should have had an experienced person with them.Plus, if what you say is true about offering to take the horse back then i am astounded they didn't do this and instead chose to keep it. I am also shocked they are still trying to back it when really it should be turned away, given some time to mature, taught some manners on the ground and then restarted.

I do think if you intend on continuing in this business you need to consider what you are selling to who. You came across as not knowing much at all about the horses - fine, it's a business there's not reason you should as I am sure you see a load of horses. However, your staff must know a bit more as they deal with them daily so they should be able to judge capabilities of the purchaser with regards to the horses you are selling.

I don't think it's your responsibility to have your horses vetted. That in my mind is what any prospective purchaser should do, especially when buying from a dealer where the history of the horse is largely unknown. Sorry, but in my mind no matter how much we've changed inot a litigious society, the old adage of "buyer beware" still applies wherever you buy a horse from!


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## minesadouble (11 May 2013)

Well said Lady T! Hardly ever log in here nowadays but I have been prompted to by this thread. 

I too applaud the dealer in question for coming on here and offering his version of events. The Watchdog programme proved nothing in my opinion.

Caveat Emptor is still my watchword when buying horses. I have bought many over the years, including three bought unseen. I very much feel the onus is on the buyer to ensure the horse is suitable and sound to do the job they want, not the seller. The problem is there are too many inexperienced people buying who would be far better off getting a few more years experience under their belts before even contemplating horse ownership. 

A perfect example is my eldest daughter's old 13.2 who was just the perfect pony. She won everything from showing, WHP, Showjumping and XC on him and he was the perfect hunter to boot. He took her from being a reasonable, if a little nervous jockey to being a confident and accomplished rider and she owes everything to him. When he was outgrown we couldn't bear to part with him so we loaned him, staying on our yard, to a younger girl who was a nice rider, though not hugely experienced and lacked a little confidence in her abilities. Our 'super schoolmaster' was an absolute little twot with her!! I couldn't believe he was the same pony! He just took the mickey out of her to the extreme. If I had sold him to this family I'm sure they would have thought we had spun them a total yarn. In my experience a lot of horses with 'behavioural issues' in fact have an owner who is incapable of dealing with them.

As far as soundness and ageing horses goes (and I agree that putting a specific age on an older horse is a VERY inexact science!) that is what a vetting is for - even a 2 stage if the price doesn't warrant a 5 stage.

If a person is not experienced enough to spot potential issues in a prospective purchase then they should take someone experienced enough to so to view the horse and have a vetting. 

I'm sure I'm not alone in thinking this particular dealer handled the Watchdog situation really well, better than I would have done, and I thought he came across as quite a reasonable person. I have no knowledge of 'Kelly's Cobs' prior to this and if they were in my area (they are not btw) and had a horse I liked the look of 'Watchdog' would certainly not have put me off buying from them!


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## KellysCobs (11 May 2013)

Hi Ladyt25 read your long post fully and will respond at length in the morning but just wanted to make one small point initially they did blood test both horses within 48 hours of leaving us and of course both proved negative of any chemical used for adjusting the soundness of a horse. Loppy passed a full vetting at whatever age she is how many aged horses do that? if honest i thought she looked fantastic in there clips if we now deal briefly with queenie i am glad you noted she looked sound when trotted up and thats exactly how she appeared to us the lameness was only discovered after flexion tests were carried out and xrays were taken, we've never been shown any xrays so cant comment on the exact injury or alleged injury so we can now assume both horses were sold without any form of drugging. Can i just ask for your comments on this question if the injury to queenie is so bad that she requires very strong medication daily only to be destroyed in 2 years as stated by watchdog what point does that serve? watchdog are yet to establish any factual evidence ie vets report, xrays what so ever despite our request they are also refusing to return the horses so we can refund and also so we can investigate further it is my opinion the age issue with Loppy was a secondary issue and that they originally purchased her because she had one thick leg this later proved to be old scar tissue that the vet himself admitted did not affect her in any way which left them with very little to argue. They had already committed to making the program and as we had proved we had refunded we had refunded Jane Arkell in full it left them very little to go on. I am not going to labour the point as to whether queenie was lame or not but feel very strongly that had they followed the terms under which they purchased the horse they would have received a refund this i feel would have a much more interesting story had it been put to the test which it wasn't. Regards


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## Tinypony (11 May 2013)

JandP said:



			I can't think why anyone would send a loved and treasured member of the family to a dealer given the choice (I appreciate some circumstances may arise where it is unavoidable - death or bankruptcy!), why would you do that??
		
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Well, you've just suggested two reasons yourself.  

The fact is that just because it's a schoolmaster that doesn't mean it is a loved and treasured member of a family.  Some people are quite happy to pass a schoolmaster horse on through a dealer, simply because they or maybe their child want to move on to something more challenging.  Your post also implies that it would be a bad thing for a horse to go to a dealer to be sold, whereas of course there are reputable dealers out there who do a good job.  They have the experience, advertising and facilities that the owner may not have and if it's a sad sell, it is one way the owner can make things a bit easier for themselves.


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## ladyt25 (11 May 2013)

KellysCobs said:



			Hi Ladyt25 read your long post fully and will respond at length in the morning but just wanted to make one small point initially they did blood test both horses within 48 hours of leaving us and of course both proved negative of any chemical used for adjusting the soundness of a horse. Loppy passed a full vetting at whatever age she is how many aged horses do that? if honest i thought she looked fantastic in there clips if we now deal briefly with queenie i am glad you noted she looked sound when trotted up and thats exactly how she appeared to us the lameness was only discovered after flexion tests were carried out and xrays were taken, we've never been shown any xrays so cant comment on the exact injury or alleged injury so we can now assume both horses were sold without any form of drugging. Can i just ask for your comments on this question if the injury to queenie is so bad that she requires very strong medication daily only to be destroyed in 2 years as stated by watchdog what point does that serve? watchdog are yet to establish any factual evidence ie vets report, xrays what so ever despite our request they are also refusing to return the horses so we can refund and also so we can investigate further it is my opinion the age issue with Loppy was a secondary issue and that they originally purchased her because she had one thick leg this later proved to be old scar tissue that the vet himself admitted did not affect her in any way which left them with very little to argue. They had already committed to making the program and as we had proved we had refunded we had refunded Jane Arkell in full it left them very little to go on. I am not going to labour the point as to whether queenie was lame or not but feel very strongly that had they followed the terms under which they purchased the horse they would have received a refund this i feel would have a much more interesting story had it been put to the test which it wasn't. Regards
		
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Yes, sorry it was long (you don't realise when you're typing!) I talk a lot so write a lot!

As for the 'broken bones' issue. I really wish they had explained that fully although I appreciate they air to a non-horsey public but it would have at least been useful to have seen the horse trotted up lame as they had stated. I think the vet's description was misleading. I can only assume they meant she had a degenerative, crumbling condition of the hock possibly as otherwise broken bones can be fixed and if, as you say they did blood test the horse and found nothing untoward, I would have expected a much lamer animal to be presented.

In answer to your question though no, if that horse was in as much pain as they described then I wouldn't treat it woth expensive meds with the knowledge it would have to be PTS within 2 years. That is draining money off the charity and is no help to the horse. It would have been better to have the horse PTS immediately if it was so bad.


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## Well I Never (11 May 2013)

@monty forever-i feel your friend who owns the horse should be discussing things on here if she wishes. Not by some third party.


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## co-jack (11 May 2013)

hi,
I bought a horse from kellys cobs, a little fat horse, but a beautiful horse, can you involve me in the link please xxx  fat horse ;-) x


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## Amymay (11 May 2013)

I guess now kellyscobs that you'll be persuing the BBC for damages. Letbus know how you get on.


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## platypus (12 May 2013)

Sorry i may have missed something here, but to feature on the programme in the first place somebody must have given them a 'tip off', reported you or whatever for the bbc to go ahead. Its very well you saying these were one off cases and that obviously there are reasons why horses weren't vetted, aged wrongly etc and your probably not the worst dealer out there by far but things do need to be changed and done correctly.


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## KellysCobs (12 May 2013)

co-jack said:



			hi,
I bought a horse from kellys cobs, a little fat horse, but a beautiful horse, can you involve me in the link please xxx  fat horse ;-) x
		
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Hi which horse is this and thanks for your comments, Im glad you posted that on here and not Facebook, there you would have been slated with death threats for having a fat horse and on another page you would be hung for having a too skinny one. Sorry being flippant. xx


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## KellysCobs (12 May 2013)

amymay said:



			I guess now kellyscobs that you'll be persuing the BBC for damages. Letbus know how you get on.
		
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Well this is a good point and if the forum has no objections I will post all correspondence I have had with the BBC and Watchdog on here and there replies. I'm sure they will object for me posting there replies without permission, but then again they never asked me for my permission to film me. Oh and I too was disgusted at my belly and can assure you I am on a diet. 

Regards

David


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## KellysCobs (12 May 2013)

platypus said:



			Sorry i may have missed something here, but to feature on the programme in the first place somebody must have given them a 'tip off', reported you or whatever for the bbc to go ahead. Its very well you saying these were one off cases and that obviously there are reasons why horses weren't vetted, aged wrongly etc and your probably not the worst dealer out there by far but things do need to be changed and done correctly.
		
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In answer, the original complaint was made by Jane Arkle who purchased two horses from us, she came and tried both at length at our premises and found both suitable, she then agreed to buy both horses at £4000. We transported both to London area for £200 which was less than cost. Jane then changed her mind and returned both horses at her expense and we refunded her the full £4000, not as Watchdog stated £3500. I believe Ms Arkle was of the opinion we should have refunded all her out of pocket expenses despite the fact the horses were not at fault.

Regards

David


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## Parachute (12 May 2013)

Kelly'sCobs - I really admire you for coming on here and somewhat defending yourself. I feel some people can be too judgemental but having seen what Watchdog showed everybody, your business didn't look too great. Obviously people make mistakes and let's just hope these were genuine mistakes and not just made up so you could sell the horses. Every story has 2 sides, so I am open to reading this debate and not judging - although I feel you may get slated for a while. 
I don't remember seeing Watchdog complain to you or ask for a refund so I can't comment on that side of things, can anybody remember if they did or not? (memory of a goldfish)

Kelly'sCobs - Perhaps you can work through this problem and just try to be more correct in future, like I said everyone makes mistakes and I just hope this is the last one like this. For the safety of the horses and potential owners.

Sorry if I seem rude, not intentional. 

*Prepares to be shot down, puts bulletproof hat on*


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## foxy1 (12 May 2013)

minesadouble said:



			Well said Lady T! Hardly ever log in here nowadays but I have been prompted to by this thread. 

I too applaud the dealer in question for coming on here and offering his version of events. The Watchdog programme proved nothing in my opinion.

Caveat Emptor is still my watchword when buying horses. I have bought many over the years, including three bought unseen. I very much feel the onus is on the buyer to ensure the horse is suitable and sound to do the job they want, not the seller. The problem is there are too many inexperienced people buying who would be far better off getting a few more years experience under their belts before even contemplating horse ownership. 

A perfect example is my eldest daughter's old 13.2 who was just the perfect pony. She won everything from showing, WHP, Showjumping and XC on him and he was the perfect hunter to boot. He took her from being a reasonable, if a little nervous jockey to being a confident and accomplished rider and she owes everything to him. When he was outgrown we couldn't bear to part with him so we loaned him, staying on our yard, to a younger girl who was a nice rider, though not hugely experienced and lacked a little confidence in her abilities. Our 'super schoolmaster' was an absolute little twot with her!! I couldn't believe he was the same pony! He just took the mickey out of her to the extreme. If I had sold him to this family I'm sure they would have thought we had spun them a total yarn. In my experience a lot of horses with 'behavioural issues' in fact have an owner who is incapable of dealing with them.

As far as soundness and ageing horses goes (and I agree that putting a specific age on an older horse is a VERY inexact science!) that is what a vetting is for - even a 2 stage if the price doesn't warrant a 5 stage.

If a person is not experienced enough to spot potential issues in a prospective purchase then they should take someone experienced enough to so to view the horse and have a vetting. 

I'm sure I'm not alone in thinking this particular dealer handled the Watchdog situation really well, better than I would have done, and I thought he came across as quite a reasonable person. I have no knowledge of 'Kelly's Cobs' prior to this and if they were in my area (they are not btw) and had a horse I liked the look of 'Watchdog' would certainly not have put me off buying from them!
		
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Great post, and I've not been put off buying from them either.


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## KellysCobs (12 May 2013)

Parachute said:



			Kelly'sCobs - I really admire you for coming on here and somewhat defending yourself. I feel some people can be too judgemental but having seen what Watchdog showed everybody, your business didn't look too great. Obviously people make mistakes and let's just hope these were genuine mistakes and not just made up so you could sell the horses. Every story has 2 sides, so I am open to reading this debate and not judging - although I feel you may get slated for a while. 
I don't remember seeing Watchdog complain to you or ask for a refund so I can't comment on that side of things, can anybody remember if they did or not? (memory of a goldfish)

Kelly'sCobs - Perhaps you can work through this problem and just try to be more correct in future, like I said everyone makes mistakes and I just hope this is the last one like this. For the safety of the horses and potential owners.

Sorry if I seem rude, not intentional. 

*Prepares to be shot down, puts bulletproof hat on* 

Click to expand...

Thank you for your comments and take on board your comments and feel you've been very fair. I also agree we as a company must carry on trading and will learn from this. One thing as I believe Ive said earlier is that we are looking into having all our horses pre-vetted so hopefully this will cut down on any future problems.

Kind Regards

David


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## KellysCobs (12 May 2013)

foxy1 said:



			Great post, and I've not been put off buying from them either.
		
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Thank you for that and your welcome anytime. xx


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## KellysCobs (12 May 2013)

This is a copy of the email we sent to Jane Arkell.

Dear J Arkell
This is David from KellysCobs, as your probably aware we have been contacted by the BBC regarding two horses you purchased from us called Ed and Monty which were later returned to us. They claim we dragged our feet in refunding you and then made a deduction of £500, they did not state why we made this deduction. Our records show we did in fact refund you in full for
the cost of the horses and any deduction if made was to cover transport costs incurred. We do have records showing refunds being paid into your HSBC bank account. I am writing to ask your memory of the refunds and dates.

I would appreciate if you could answer the follow questions.

1) Were you refunded in full.

[Arkell, Jane (STDL) (ext)] No.

2) If not and deductions were made what was the reason for these deductions.

[Arkell, Jane
(STDL) (ext)] I Paid £100 for delivery. Then you deducted £100 for Ed and £100 for Monty. It cost me
£180 for transport to have them returned. For information purposes, I'd also paid for wormers, stabling etc for
the horses and as a result I was over £500 out of pocket for horses that were, in my view, miss-sold.


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## KellysCobs (12 May 2013)

If I could ask the forum for there opinion. The first photo was taken off the Watchdog program and is a photo taken of teeth. The second one is a teeth chart. Yes Im biased but in my opinion Loppy looks far closer to 15 than the 20 year old diagram. Better still if there are or vets or dentists I would invite there opinion also. Please no suggestion of us doctoring the photos as there on the watchdog program for all to check.

Loppy







Age Chart


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## Cuffey (12 May 2013)

The picture shows the Galvaynes groove only in the bottom half of the tooth, ie disappeared from the top half--so I agree with the 25years

This represents my understanding of Galvaynes Groove

''The Galvayne's Groove - The Basics

As we said above, the Galvayne's groove is a dark or brownish groove in a horse's upper corner incisor teeth. If present, it should be present on each side of a horse's mouth.

In general, the Galvayne's groove:

    First appears at the gum line in horses about 10 years of age. Each year, the groove will extend a little farther down the tooth.
    It is expected to be about halfway down the tooth at 15 years of age, and all the way down (visible from top to bottom) at 20 years of age.
    After 20 years of age, the Galvayne's groove begins to disappear from the tooth, starting at the top. By approximately 25 years of age the Galvayne's groove will be gone from the top half of the tooth, but still visible on the bottom half.
    By the time a horse is 30, it is expected to be gone completely.''


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## FabioandFreddy (12 May 2013)

Whilst i thought the programme was poorly done, a 20% return rate of horses sold is very high. And only one loser - the buyer. Kelly's Cobs keep a percentage as an admin fee then re-sell the horse for the same price to another buyer! I certainly wouldn't buy from anywhere that 1 in 5 were returned.


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## Parachute (12 May 2013)

KellysCobs said:



			Thank you for your comments and take on board your comments and feel you've been very fair. I also agree we as a company must carry on trading and will learn from this. One thing as I believe Ive said earlier is that we are looking into having all our horses pre-vetted so hopefully this will cut down on any future problems.

Kind Regards

David
		
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Well, I think that decision will benefit your business greatly. It'll take a while but i'm sure if you focus on the positives and do all the pre-vetting on each horse you may get a good reputation one day.


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## KellysCobs (12 May 2013)

FabioandFreddy said:



			Whilst i thought the programme was poorly done, a 20% return rate of horses sold is very high. And only one loser - the buyer. Kelly's Cobs keep a percentage as an admin fee then re-sell the horse for the same price to another buyer! I certainly wouldn't buy from anywhere that 1 in 5 were returned.
		
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We do not keep a percentage, if the horse is returned within the 14-days for genuine reasons, ie vet fail, different from described we refund in full. If this is not the case could you kindly offer a factual case. 

Regards

David


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## KellysCobs (12 May 2013)

FabioandFreddy said:



			Whilst i thought the programme was poorly done, a 20% return rate of horses sold is very high. And only one loser - the buyer. Kelly's Cobs keep a percentage as an admin fee then re-sell the horse for the same price to another buyer! I certainly wouldn't buy from anywhere that 1 in 5 were returned.
		
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The national average of all horses vetted that fail is above 30%. Please establish this for yourself or ask your vet. We estimate 20% in our case so we in-line with the national average certainly no worse.

Regards

David


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## wildwest (12 May 2013)

i agree with age line clearly at bottom hence 20 plus .
i do not agree with watchdog program v poorly done


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## KellysCobs (12 May 2013)

Cuffey said:



			The picture shows the Galvaynes groove only in the bottom half of the tooth, ie disappeared from the top half--so I agree with the 25years

This represents my understanding of Galvaynes Groove

''The Galvayne's Groove - The Basics

As we said above, the Galvayne's groove is a dark or brownish groove in a horse's upper corner incisor teeth. If present, it should be present on each side of a horse's mouth.

In general, the Galvayne's groove:

    First appears at the gum line in horses about 10 years of age. Each year, the groove will extend a little farther down the tooth.
    It is expected to be about halfway down the tooth at 15 years of age, and all the way down (visible from top to bottom) at 20 years of age.
    After 20 years of age, the Galvayne's groove begins to disappear from the tooth, starting at the top. By approximately 25 years of age the Galvayne's groove will be gone from the top half of the tooth, but still visible on the bottom half.
    By the time a horse is 30, it is expected to be gone completely.''
		
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Good point and will welcome your input. Regards


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## noodle_ (12 May 2013)

i havent viewed the programme


is there a link to catch up to see it?????




have to say - i think its very wise of said dealer to come and give facts and not slam an argument down like some would!! so good for you


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## ladyt25 (12 May 2013)

You'd have to look at a galvayne's groove along with the angle of the teeth though which can't be seen in those charts and also by looking at the spots and stripes on the teeth themselves - the bottom teeth. You can't go off a galvayne's groove alone. My pony didn't/doesn't have one and never has. He also had a 7 year hook on his teeth well in to his teens. It is not an exact science at all.


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## noodle_ (12 May 2013)

found it! am watching now


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## rascal (12 May 2013)

little_critter said:



			Was wondering why the woman who wanted a "safe grown up horse" bought something described as a 4 year old for a child.
		
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Ignorance.
An awful lot make the same mistake, don't find out about horses before they buy, then blame the animals when it all goes wrong and the child is hurt.


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## Parachute (12 May 2013)

rascal said:



			Ignorance.
An awful lot make the same mistake, don't find out about horses before they buy, then blame the animals when it all goes wrong and the child is hurt.
		
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I agree. She clearly said she wanted something safe and then bought a '4 year old'  that actually ended up being 2.5 years!!


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## Polos Mum (12 May 2013)

rascal said:



			Ignorance.
An awful lot make the same mistake, don't find out about horses before they buy, then blame the animals when it all goes wrong and the child is hurt.
		
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Major ignorance and I can only assume to save money, a 4 year old will be a lot cheaper than the experienced/ well schooled 14 y/o that they really need as a small childs pony. 
Crazy when it's the safety of their children

Anyone who asks anyone vaguely in the horsey world will tell them that a 4 y/o is too young for a small child, they (should) only have been broken six ish months, they are still physically growing themselves and they have the horrible 5/6 y/o teenager phase to come!


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## rascal (12 May 2013)

We bought a 4 yr old for our children but hubby did his bhs training and knows what hes doing. Pony is now out on loan teaching two other little girls to ride.


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## cappucino (12 May 2013)

Parachute said:



			I agree. She clearly said she wanted something safe and then bought a '4 year old'  that actually ended up being 2.5 years!! 

Click to expand...

And here is a question for David... Do you really believe that a 4 year old should be sold as a safe pony suitable for children?

Also - do you allow vettings before the horse leaves the yard? Watchdog made no effort to get the horses checked before purchase so that seemed unclear...

And perhaps a question for the rest of us to ponder - would you have expected your out of pocket expenses to be paid by Kelly's Cobs if you were sending back an unsuitable horse?


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## Polos Mum (12 May 2013)

rascal said:



			We bought a 4 yr old for our children but hubby did his bhs training and knows what hes doing. Pony is now out on loan teaching two other little girls to ride.
		
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I guess if you can continue the ponys education from the ground or ridden (if your small enough!) and the child has the pony as more of a pet than a ridden horse then it might be possible - but in rare circumstances I'd have thought.


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## rascal (12 May 2013)

Polos Mum said:



			I guess if you can continue the ponys education from the ground or ridden (if your small enough!) and the child has the pony as more of a pet than a ridden horse then it might be possible - but in rare circumstances I'd have thought.
		
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Our eldest had already been having lessons at a riding school, it helped that she could already ride before we bought the pony.


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## KellysCobs (12 May 2013)

cappucino said:



			And here is a question for David... Do you really believe that a 4 year old should be sold as a safe pony suitable for children?

Also - do you allow vettings before the horse leaves the yard? Watchdog made no effort to get the horses checked before purchase so that seemed unclear...

And perhaps a question for the rest of us to ponder - would you have expected your out of pocket expenses to be paid by Kelly's Cobs if you were sending back an unsuitable horse?
		
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Hi cappucino

In answer to your question I must say no I don't think generally a 4 year old is suitable for a child. However I have had 4 year olds that are and plenty of 14 year olds that arnt. But to answer without a specific horse in mind, no I wouldn't and accept we need to be more careful in the future. We are considering asking our customers to complete a small questionnaire stating who and why there buying a horse. The reason for this is to protect both sides as customers do not always make it clear who there buying a horse for and there level of riding. While Im not trying claim innocent in this matter and if the customer had made us aware she was buying it for a novice child then clearly we must shoulder  responsibility and accept the criticism. However I would add, this customer was offered a full refund way out of the 14-Day warranty and declined.

Regards

David


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## KellysCobs (12 May 2013)

cappucino said:



			And here is a question for David... Do you really believe that a 4 year old should be sold as a safe pony suitable for children?

Also - do you allow vettings before the horse leaves the yard? Watchdog made no effort to get the horses checked before purchase so that seemed unclear...

And perhaps a question for the rest of us to ponder - would you have expected your out of pocket expenses to be paid by Kelly's Cobs if you were sending back an unsuitable horse?
		
Click to expand...

Yes a customer has the option of vetting either at our premises prior to purchase or with them during the 14-Day trial. The choice of vets is of course there's. If the horse is vetted with us and fails the customers deposit is refunded in full.

Regards

David


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## KellysCobs (12 May 2013)

Parachute said:



			I agree. She clearly said she wanted something safe and then bought a '4 year old'  that actually ended up being 2.5 years!! 

Click to expand...

Sorry to sound argumentative but I do not accept Flash (Woody) was 2.5 years old. I have asked the customer to clarify this and also why if they believed the horse was only 2.5 why did she continue riding it and why did they not return it for full refund. I would invite the owner to comment as I am aware she is reading this forum.

Regards

David


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## Parachute (12 May 2013)

KellysCobs said:



			Sorry to sound argumentative but I do not accept Flash (Woody) was 2.5 years old. I have asked the customer to clarify this and also why if they believed the horse was only 2.5 why did she continue riding it and why did they not return it for full refund. I would invite the owner to comment as I am aware she is reading this forum.

Regards

David
		
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Well, let's hope she comes forward to defend herself!


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## KellysCobs (12 May 2013)

Parachute said:



			Kelly'sCobs - I really admire you for coming on here and somewhat defending yourself. I feel some people can be too judgemental but having seen what Watchdog showed everybody, your business didn't look too great. Obviously people make mistakes and let's just hope these were genuine mistakes and not just made up so you could sell the horses. Every story has 2 sides, so I am open to reading this debate and not judging - although I feel you may get slated for a while. 
I don't remember seeing Watchdog complain to you or ask for a refund so I can't comment on that side of things, can anybody remember if they did or not? (memory of a goldfish)

Kelly'sCobs - Perhaps you can work through this problem and just try to be more correct in future, like I said everyone makes mistakes and I just hope this is the last one like this. For the safety of the horses and potential owners.

Sorry if I seem rude, not intentional. 

*Prepares to be shot down, puts bulletproof hat on* 

Click to expand...

Hi, in answer to your question did Watchdog complain or try to seek a refund. No the first I heard was when they all jumped out of the van with cameras. They made no prior contact nor did they test my 14-Day refund policy. This is a shame as the policy is genuine and I think they knew that as one of there contributors a Mss Jane Arkell has tested this policy and did received a full refund exactly in accordance with our terms and conditions. Could I suggest this may be the reason why they never claimed a refund as that would have spoiled there story?


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## KellysCobs (12 May 2013)

Parachute said:



			Well, let's hope she comes forward to defend herself!
		
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Yes I agree, I hope she does too.


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## DragonSlayer (12 May 2013)

I'm not too far from this establishment, and a relation very recently bought a horse from here. Horse is everything Kelly's Cobs said he was!

Thought I'd just clear that up as she was treated very well and they are very honest as far as she could see and I haven't heard of anyone else I know having bother.


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## KellysCobs (12 May 2013)

Dear Michelle

Could you kindly send on to us copies of vet reports and Xrays for both Loppy and Queenie and could we also arrange to visit both horses with a independent vet which were happy for you to pre-approve.

After watching the recent program could I ask you for a definitive age on Loppy as in the program two ages were suggested, one of 20 and another of 25. If this is not possible could you explain why there is a 5 year difference in your vets estimation of age?

If none of this is possible could you kindly explain your reasons.

Kind Regards

David 
-------- Original Message --------
Subject: RE: respose from kellyscobs
From: Michelle Cox <removed>
Date: Thu, May 09, 2013 8:32 am
To: Kellyscobs <removed>

Apologies I did not read that you expected us to return the horses to you. We obviously will not be returning them to you as neither are suitable as riding horses and neither should have been sold. As explained, one is very old nearing the end of her life and the other has broken bones and is lame, dangerous and in need of a strong course of painkillers before she inevitably has to be put down.

These horses were misdescribed, so as is in line with your refund policy I shall still await a cheque from you for the amount of £2250.

Regards,

Michelle


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## Montyforever (12 May 2013)

The owner of Woody is not reading this forum (as far as I am aware) im a friend of his owner and used to help look after him before my injury caused by him (Woody). 
He was only 2.5 at the time of sale, she has had several vets check his age. I can't comment on if she was offered refund or not or what her answer was. All she told me was that you had offered to exchange him but she wouldn't want another horse from you due to the problems she had with Woody which is understandable. I think she decided better the devil you know in this case.

Yes she bought a young horse, he's mainly ridden by a 16 year old but she wanted a safe enough horse for kids to be led around on and fuss which IMO isn't too much to ask of a 4 year old. 
Fair enough you could expect a few problems popping up when buying a youngster but believe me woody is very well practised with the naughty habits!


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## Aarrghimpossiblepony (12 May 2013)

Montyforever said:



			The owner of Woody is not reading this forum (as far as I am aware) im a friend of his owner and used to help look after him before my injury caused by him (Woody). 
He was only 2.5 at the time of sale, she has had several vets check his age. I can't comment on if she was offered refund or not or what her answer was. All she told me was that you had offered to exchange him but she wouldn't want another horse from you due to the problems she had with Woody which is understandable. I think she decided better the devil you know in this case.

*Yes she bought a young horse, he's mainly ridden by a 16 year old but she wanted a safe enough horse for kids to be led around on and fuss which IMO isn't too much to ask of a 4 year old.* 
Fair enough you could expect a few problems popping up when buying a youngster but believe me woody is very well practised with the naughty habits!
		
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But it is.
I can't think of a person here who would tell you different. 

At four, at what and for how long would you think the pony has been practising controlling itself in all situations?

What you find over and over again is people saying how *surprised* they are that their youngster is so good.
They are babies, some are unexpectedly mature in outlook, but it's not expected.


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## KellysCobs (12 May 2013)

KellysCobs said:



			Dear Michelle

Could you kindly send on to us copies of vet reports and Xrays for both Loppy and Queenie and could we also arrange to visit both horses with a independent vet which were happy for you to pre-approve.

After watching the recent program could I ask you for a definitive age on Loppy as in the program two ages were suggested, one of 20 and another of 25. If this is not possible could you explain why there is a 5 year difference in your vets estimation of age?

If none of this is possible could you kindly explain your reasons.

Kind Regards

David 
-------- Original Message --------
Subject: RE: respose from kellyscobs
From: Michelle Cox <removed>
Date: Thu, May 09, 2013 8:32 am
To: Kellyscobs <removed>

Apologies I did not read that you expected us to return the horses to you. We obviously will not be returning them to you as neither are suitable as riding horses and neither should have been sold. As explained, one is very old nearing the end of her life and the other has broken bones and is lame, dangerous and in need of a strong course of painkillers before she inevitably has to be put down.

These horses were misdescribed, so as is in line with your refund policy I shall still await a cheque from you for the amount of £2250.

Regards,

Michelle
		
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Hi Montyforever.

Again not wanting to sound argumentative and correct me if Im wrong but did you not say the lady in question didn't ask for a refund because she was out of the 14-Day period in a earlier post? and did you not also say in a earlier post that the horse threw you off so badly you had to go to A&E. I ask as the lady in question in the Watchdog program says you ended up in A&E because the horse yanked you while you were leading him. With regards to age I have requested sight of a vets report stating age without success. Can I also ask you again if you were aware the horse was only 2.5 years old why were you riding him?

I can assure this customer was offered a full refund and maybe you could ask her to comment in person or at least clarify to you if she was or not offered a full refund

Regards 

David


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## Polos Mum (12 May 2013)

David - I do hope the rather niaeve Michelle is from Watchdog not Redwings?  I must remember to try that when buying a car - e-mail and tell them it's not as described but I'm keeping it and I'd like a full refund !! 

If you're considering it I'd like to buy all your horses tomorrow on those terms, I'm sure I'll find someone to find something wrong with them so, I'll be after a full refund also.  At worst I'll sell them all for meat and make £500 a go - they may even be one or two that is worth something more, either way good money for me.


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## KellysCobs (12 May 2013)

Montyforever said:



			The owner of Woody is not reading this forum (as far as I am aware) im a friend of his owner and used to help look after him before my injury caused by him (Woody). 
He was only 2.5 at the time of sale, she has had several vets check his age. I can't comment on if she was offered refund or not or what her answer was. All she told me was that you had offered to exchange him but she wouldn't want another horse from you due to the problems she had with Woody which is understandable. I think she decided better the devil you know in this case.

Yes she bought a young horse, he's mainly ridden by a 16 year old but she wanted a safe enough horse for kids to be led around on and fuss which IMO isn't too much to ask of a 4 year old. 
Fair enough you could expect a few problems popping up when buying a youngster but believe me woody is very well practised with the naughty habits!
		
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Sorry forgot to comment on you saying she actually purchased the horse for her 16 year old, well in the program Lisa states she was buying the horse for her grand kids and makes no mention of wanting him for her 16 year old daughter. Could you kindly clarify which version is correct, yours or Lisa.

Regards

David


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## KellysCobs (12 May 2013)

Polos Mum said:



			David - I do hope the rather niaeve Michelle is from Watchdog not Redwings?  I must remember to try that when buying a car - e-mail and tell them it's not as described but I'm keeping it and I'd like a full refund !! 

If you're considering it I'd like to buy all your horses tomorrow on those terms, I'm sure I'll find someone to find something wrong with them so, I'll be after a full refund also.  At worst I'll sell them all for meat and make £500 a go - they may even be one or two that is worth something more, either way good money for me.
		
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Hi Polo mum, Michelle is from Watchdog she is the programs producer.

Regards

David


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## Slightly Foxed (12 May 2013)

Montyforever said:



			The owner of Woody is not reading this forum (as far as I am aware) im a friend of his owner and used to help look after him before my injury caused by him (Woody). 
He was only 2.5 at the time of sale, she has had several vets check his age. I can't comment on if she was offered refund or not or what her answer was. All she told me was that you had offered to exchange him but she wouldn't want another horse from you due to the problems she had with Woody which is understandable. I think she decided better the devil you know in this case.

Yes she bought a young horse, he's mainly ridden by a 16 year old but she wanted a safe enough horse for kids to be led around on and fuss which IMO isn't too much to ask of a 4 year old. 
Fair enough you could expect a few problems popping up when buying a youngster but believe me woody is very well practised with the naughty habits!
		
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On no one's side here but if the purchaser is convinced the pony is two and a half, why is he still being ridden and not turned away for a year??


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## Aarrghimpossiblepony (12 May 2013)

Slightly Foxed said:



			On no one's side here but if the purchaser is convinced the pony is two and a half, why is he still being ridden and not turned away for a year??
		
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I asked this pages ago and still haven't had an answer.


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## platypus (12 May 2013)

David i think you could talk a nun into bed, you definitely have the gift of the gab and you are as you did on the bbc coming across very well.Sorry if any of this has been mentioned before but heres my view- Dealers are pretty much there to buy and sell horses and make a profit, ok nothing wrong with that but i expect a dealer just to sell a horse on the fact this is horse, this is what it does and this is the price no emotional ties with it just a general understanding of said horse and its capabilities. However you claim to be able to sell horses suitable for novices, this is taken from your website

We specialize in providing family horses suitable for all riders including the nervous and novice. The sort you can take from the field once or twice a week tack up and ride away without fuss or drama, the type you can hack up and down dale as if sat at home in your favorite armchair. So if hassle free hacking for all the family or the perfect mother/daughter share is what your looking for then please browse our good selection of family Cobs.

Nothing wrong with that no, but how can you guarantee every horse you get is suitable and what happens to the more complex ones, the rearers, buckers etc are these catered for else where sold to more experienced riders, competition projects etc i suspect not because anyone with a clue of what they wanted wouldn't touch you with a barge pole, i suspect they are just sold as novice horses in the hope they don't show any problems before the 14 day trial is up.You also advertise that you will buy horses-now for me if somebody is willing to sell to a dealer either they are after a quick sale or there is something wrong with the horse in the first place or they themselves would have sold it on as a safe hack, family ride. A good safe, bombproof horse is hard to find and worth its weight in gold unless you are seriously blessed i highly doubt you have a yard full of these. Your turn around on these horses is so quick i doubt you even get to know there names, they arrive and are plodded up and down the road on camera placed on your website and are next in line to be sold, what happens when horses are returned within the trial period because of behaviour issues do you re-assess them and their needs, check back,teeth etc and get to the reason why or just give them a good razz round so they wont cause problems again. Like i said from the bbc i think you do come across very well and the whole programme was a sham and poorly done-from what i did see i cant fault the care of the horses they all seemed happy,fed,clean and had turnout but i do question the ability of your staff/riders from what ive seen is yes they are very pretty and probably do a good job of fronting the whole show but do they have any qualifications, experience with horses or are they just giving them a quick spin up and down the road and over the odd jump because surely they could tell a 2.5year old from a 4 year old. 
There is no money in horses unless IMHO you are either doing it very very well and correctly or doing it wrong- i suspect you turn these horses around so quickly so that you dont have to spend a fortune on feed or even get the farrier out to them, perfectly fine if they are advertised correctly.
Im not going to argue about the ages of the horses shown or the injuries because im sure you do have your reasons and i cant say any differently the above is just my opinion and would be happy if you proved me wrong but i suspect you only came on here to vice your side because your worried about your business being affected.Im sure you wil carry on trading and have some happy customers but at the end of the day it is false advertisment and arguably fraud.


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## Polos Mum (12 May 2013)

Aarrghimpossiblepony said:



			I asked this pages ago and still haven't had an answer.
		
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I think the owners friend said all this happened a while ago and they now think the pony is over 3 so are riding him on that basis.  If it were my pony I might try a good year or so off(just basic ground handling) then re starting from scratch which may well fix quite a lot.


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## Tinypony (12 May 2013)

What a read!  
Surely if you want a refund you probably have to return the "product".  That's a bit harsh but reality I think.  
I have a very good friend who brought a nice little cob who was thought to be 4 years old.  It wasn't until staff at the livery yard started to wonder about how green he was that they thought to get a vet to double-check his age and he was found to be two.  I know this because the dealer took him back and 7 years later I brought him.


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## KellysCobs (12 May 2013)

platypus said:



			David i think you could talk a nun into bed, you definitely have the gift of the gab and you are as you did on the bbc coming across very well.Sorry if any of this has been mentioned before but heres my view- Dealers are pretty much there to buy and sell horses and make a profit, ok nothing wrong with that but i expect a dealer just to sell a horse on the fact this is horse, this is what it does and this is the price no emotional ties with it just a general understanding of said horse and its capabilities. However you claim to be able to sell horses suitable for novices, this is taken from your website

We specialize in providing family horses suitable for all riders including the nervous and novice. The sort you can take from the field once or twice a week tack up and ride away without fuss or drama, the type you can hack up and down dale as if sat at home in your favorite armchair. So if hassle free hacking for all the family or the perfect mother/daughter share is what your looking for then please browse our good selection of family Cobs.

Nothing wrong with that no, but how can you guarantee every horse you get is suitable and what happens to the more complex ones, the rearers, buckers etc are these catered for else where sold to more experienced riders, competition projects etc i suspect not because anyone with a clue of what they wanted wouldn't touch you with a barge pole, i suspect they are just sold as novice horses in the hope they don't show any problems before the 14 day trial is up.You also advertise that you will buy horses-now for me if somebody is willing to sell to a dealer either they are after a quick sale or there is something wrong with the horse in the first place or they themselves would have sold it on as a safe hack, family ride. A good safe, bombproof horse is hard to find and worth its weight in gold unless you are seriously blessed i highly doubt you have a yard full of these. Your turn around on these horses is so quick i doubt you even get to know there names, they arrive and are plodded up and down the road on camera placed on your website and are next in line to be sold, what happens when horses are returned within the trial period because of behaviour issues do you re-assess them and their needs, check back,teeth etc and get to the reason why or just give them a good razz round so they wont cause problems again. Like i said from the bbc i think you do come across very well and the whole programme was a sham and poorly done-from what i did see i cant fault the care of the horses they all seemed happy,fed,clean and had turnout but i do question the ability of your staff/riders from what ive seen is yes they are very pretty and probably do a good job of fronting the whole show but do they have any qualifications, experience with horses or are they just giving them a quick spin up and down the road and over the odd jump because surely they could tell a 2.5year old from a 4 year old. 
There is no money in horses unless IMHO you are either doing it very very well and correctly or doing it wrong- i suspect you turn these horses around so quickly so that you dont have to spend a fortune on feed or even get the farrier out to them, perfectly fine if they are advertised correctly.
Im not going to argue about the ages of the horses shown or the injuries because im sure you do have your reasons and i cant say any differently the above is just my opinion and would be happy if you proved me wrong but i suspect you only came on here to vice your side because your worried about your business being affected.Im sure you wil carry on trading and have some happy customers but at the end of the day it is false advertisment and arguably fraud.
		
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Hi Platypus and thank you for your post. I will answer as honestly as i can and at length tomorrow as I think you have some very valid points and do need some consideration as there not easy to answer lightly. One thing I can say tonight is why I came on here and why Im staying and replying as believe me Im not getting an easy ride. My reasons of course is to but my side but equally Ive learnt from this forum and have been made to think how can I stop this happening again, one example is someone suggested why dont I get the horses pre-vetted. Well this is something we are now looking into, so without rewriting war and peace the short answer is, to learn and listen to other peoples view and hopefully improve the way I trade. I did try this on facebook but became a tad disheartened after the fifth death threat.

Regards

David


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## SonceyDog (12 May 2013)

We bought a pony from kellys cobs and she is super! We saw a pony advertised by them on horsemart and phoned to get further details about him. Spoke to David who asked me what we wanted the pony for and he told us he had 4 or 5 on the yard who may suit our purpose. When we got there we were shown around by lovely girl (sorry can't remember her name). Asked us exactly what we wanted we told her a safe hack for mum (me), something for my 13 year old daughter to do pony club and horse ball on, and lastly it had to be fairly bombproof as my 20 year old disabled daughter would also be riding occasionally. She then showed us 4 ponies she thought would suit. Tried Billy first as he was the one we had seen on horsemart. He was demonstrated to us 1st by young guy then my 13 year old daughter got on. He was fine not naughty in any way but a bit strong so guy said think he may be too much for your other daughter let's try the next one. 
Next was dolls and this is the one we bought she was demonstrated again 1st then my daughter rode then me. Then we took her for hack past loads of really scary stuff that she did not turn a hair at. Then my daughter rode her in school again then we practised getting on and off on wrong side in clumsy manner which is how disabled daughter has to mount and dismount pony stood perfectly still not bothered in the slightest. Then asked if we could pop her over a couple of jumps, fine no problem. Went in stable looked her all over good as gold. Price was £2000 less than you would expect to pay and the reason is overshot at the knees obviously been down on the road at some time. Spoke to David about her history she had been bought at auction described as quiet, good in traffic, also drives. Sold at auction with warranty. He showed us passport. He then explained kellys cobs warranty to us we asked about vetting, we were a bit concerned about the knees. We asked if our vet could come to his yard, yes that was fine, he would just ask us to leave a deposit and he would withdraw the horse from sale until vet had been. In the end we decided to have her vetted at home our vet tried every which way to make her go lame on those knees but without success. Passed vetting, age was correct in fact she does everything we were told she did and more. Yes she may be more at risk of arthritis as she ages but let's face it arthritis could happen to any horse. We are fairly experienced and did spend a whole afternoon doing everything we could think of with the pony but it was no problem with the people at kellys cobs they could not have been more helpful and encouraged us to give the pony a proper trial. I would certainly consider buying another horse from them. I will also be writing to watchdog as I think the programme was totally unfair. I also have to say that during our 2 visits to their yard all the horses looked extremely well cared for and certainly not mistreated in any way. The staff were in full knowledge of all their likes and dislikes and in my experience this only comes from spending considerable time with an animal. Good luck for the future kellys cobs!


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## Montyforever (12 May 2013)

Where did I put that I fell off woody .. Would be quite interested to know as I don't actually ride  
Yes I was yanked while leading him to the field. 
I only know what Lisa has told me from her point of view so I can't be sure what you offered her/what she has of hasn't accepted as I stated before. Although I would believe Lisa over you any day. I saw his advert/videos of him while for sale so I also know what you advertised him as.


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## KellysCobs (12 May 2013)

DragonSlayer said:



			I'm not too far from this establishment, and a relation very recently bought a horse from here. Horse is everything Kelly's Cobs said he was!

Thought I'd just clear that up as she was treated very well and they are very honest as far as she could see and I haven't heard of anyone else I know having bother.
		
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Ive just fainted lol.  Thank you and what horse was it. One thing has just struck me, would any of you posters like to visit? Your welcome by appointment or unannounced.

Regards

David


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## KellysCobs (12 May 2013)

Montyforever said:



			Where did I put that I fell off woody .. Would be quite interested to know as I don't actually ride  
Yes I was yanked while leading him to the field. 
I only know what Lisa has told me from her point of view so I can't be sure what you offered her/what she has of hasn't accepted as I stated before. Although I would believe Lisa over you any day. I saw his advert/videos of him while for sale so I also know what you advertised him as.
		
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I stand corrected and my mistake you didnt say you rode him, my apologies. Yes we did make videos of him as believed him to be of riding age and if honest still do.

Regards

David


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## co-jack (12 May 2013)

hello David,
Sorry to hear of your troubles!
I bought flaxen 13yr old absolutley stunning mare.
Yes she was a little over weight but not as much as the video of her on you tube she looked alot fatter on there and shorter! a bit like me when i have a photo taken i'm not really that fat! lol x
Anyway she is as kellys cobs described, good weight carrier, hacking horse, steady edy type. iv taken her over canal bridges, through woods, on busy main roads and she was very good just spooked at a leaf blowing! haha!
Kelly did warn me she can be pushy in the stable but just needs correcting, yes true and she's easily corrected. 
some baby calfs appeared in the next field a couple of days after she first arrived and she panicked alot for 4 days coming in and out of the field she's fine now tho, pigs will be arriving soon! happy days! :-\
she has got a bad case of mites but this is being sorted by the vet as well as up to date jabs. She's been wormed and i think her tummy has gone down alot....but a few of the girls on the yard have said she might be in foal eeek! ill keep you posted on that one!
so iv had her for nearly 3 weeks and so far so good.
I still cant belive my luck she's perfect in every way, id say she should have been worth about £2,500 watch dog has got me thinking why was she only £1,650 is it too good to be true or am i just a very lucky gal!!


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## KellysCobs (12 May 2013)

SonceyDog said:



			We bought a pony from kellys cobs and she is super! We saw a pony advertised by them on horsemart and phoned to get further details about him. Spoke to David who asked me what we wanted the pony for and he told us he had 4 or 5 on the yard who may suit our purpose. When we got there we were shown around by lovely girl (sorry can't remember her name). Asked us exactly what we wanted we told her a safe hack for mum (me), something for my 13 year old daughter to do pony club and horse ball on, and lastly it had to be fairly bombproof as my 20 year old disabled daughter would also be riding occasionally. She then showed us 4 ponies she thought would suit. Tried Billy first as he was the one we had seen on horsemart. He was demonstrated to us 1st by young guy then my 13 year old daughter got on. He was fine not naughty in any way but a bit strong so guy said think he may be too much for your other daughter let's try the next one. 
Next was dolls and this is the one we bought she was demonstrated again 1st then my daughter rode then me. Then we took her for hack past loads of really scary stuff that she did not turn a hair at. Then my daughter rode her in school again then we practised getting on and off on wrong side in clumsy manner which is how disabled daughter has to mount and dismount pony stood perfectly still not bothered in the slightest. Then asked if we could pop her over a couple of jumps, fine no problem. Went in stable looked her all over good as gold. Price was £2000 less than you would expect to pay and the reason is overshot at the knees obviously been down on the road at some time. Spoke to David about her history she had been bought at auction described as quiet, good in traffic, also drives. Sold at auction with warranty. He showed us passport. He then explained kellys cobs warranty to us we asked about vetting, we were a bit concerned about the knees. We asked if our vet could come to his yard, yes that was fine, he would just ask us to leave a deposit and he would withdraw the horse from sale until vet had been. In the end we decided to have her vetted at home our vet tried every which way to make her go lame on those knees but without success. Passed vetting, age was correct in fact she does everything we were told she did and more. Yes she may be more at risk of arthritis as she ages but let's face it arthritis could happen to any horse. We are fairly experienced and did spend a whole afternoon doing everything we could think of with the pony but it was no problem with the people at kellys cobs they could not have been more helpful and encouraged us to give the pony a proper trial. I would certainly consider buying another horse from them. I will also be writing to watchdog as I think the programme was totally unfair. I also have to say that during our 2 visits to their yard all the horses looked extremely well cared for and certainly not mistreated in any way. The staff were in full knowledge of all their likes and dislikes and in my experience this only comes from spending considerable time with an animal. Good luck for the future kellys cobs!
		
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If your single would you consider a marriage proposal ? Thanks so much for taking the time to write that and would be very interested in the response if any you get from Watchdog.

Regards

David


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## KellysCobs (12 May 2013)

co-jack said:



			hello David,
Sorry to hear of your troubles!
I bought flaxen 13yr old absolutley stunning mare.
Yes she was a little over weight but not as much as the video of her on you tube she looked alot fatter on there and shorter! a bit like me when i have a photo taken i'm not really that fat! lol x
Anyway she is as kellys cobs described, good weight carrier, hacking horse, steady edy type. iv taken her over canal bridges, through woods, on busy main roads and she was very good just spooked at a leaf blowing! haha!
Kelly did warn me she can be pushy in the stable but just needs correcting, yes true and she's easily corrected. 
some baby calfs appeared in the next field a couple of days after she first arrived and she panicked alot for 4 days coming in and out of the field she's fine now tho, pigs will be arriving soon! happy days! :-\
she has got a bad case of mites but this is being sorted by the vet as well as up to date jabs. She's been wormed and i think her tummy has gone down alot....but a few of the girls on the yard have said she might be in foal eeek! ill keep you posted on that one!
so iv had her for nearly 3 weeks and so far so good.
I still cant belive my luck she's perfect in every way, id say she should have been worth about £2,500 watch dog has got me thinking why was she only £1,650 is it too good to be true or am i just a very lucky gal!!
		
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Dont let Watchdog ruin your enjoyment of Flaxen, I know your a stress head from the texts I had from you after sale lol. Seriously Im so pleased youve bonded with her, was a little worried to start and your partner looked like he could go a few rounds so wasnt looking forward to that lol, Im joking you were both great and thanks for taking the time to post. xx


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## platypus (12 May 2013)

co-jack said:



			hello David,
Sorry to hear of your troubles!
I bought flaxen 13yr old absolutley stunning mare.
Yes she was a little over weight but not as much as the video of her on you tube she looked alot fatter on there and shorter! a bit like me when i have a photo taken i'm not really that fat! lol x
Anyway she is as kellys cobs described, good weight carrier, hacking horse, steady edy type. iv taken her over canal bridges, through woods, on busy main roads and she was very good just spooked at a leaf blowing! haha!
Kelly did warn me she can be pushy in the stable but just needs correcting, yes true and she's easily corrected. 
some baby calfs appeared in the next field a couple of days after she first arrived and she panicked alot for 4 days coming in and out of the field she's fine now tho, pigs will be arriving soon! happy days! :-\
she has got a bad case of mites but this is being sorted by the vet as well as up to date jabs. She's been wormed and i think her tummy has gone down alot....but a few of the girls on the yard have said she might be in foal eeek! ill keep you posted on that one!
so iv had her for nearly 3 weeks and so far so good.
I still cant belive my luck she's perfect in every way, id say she should have been worth about £2,500 watch dog has got me thinking why was she only £1,650 is it too good to be true or am i just a very lucky gal!!
		
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Sorry dont want to be nasty about your lovely mare as im sure she is, but to me 3 weeks ago you bought a 13yearold overweight, bargy,wormy mare with mites and maybe in foal yet you think this was a good deal?
Overweight seems to be a familiar pattern in davids horses maybe he fattens them up so they are just ploddy, what happens when they become fitter and get more of a handful well i suppose thats not his problem thats not how he sold it ?


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## KellysCobs (12 May 2013)

platypus said:



			Sorry dont want to be nasty about your lovely mare as im sure she is, but to me 3 weeks ago you bought a 13yearold overweight, bargy,wormy mare with mites and maybe in foal yet you think this was a good deal?
Overweight seems to be a familiar pattern in davids horses maybe he fattens them up so they are just ploddy, what happens when they become fitter and get more of a handful well i suppose thats not his problem thats not how he sold it ?
		
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Must say Platypus your not coming over as a fan, but again I will take the rough with the smooth. Is there anything positive Ive written or are you not willing to consider any other view than your own.

Regards

David


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## KellysCobs (12 May 2013)

platypus said:



			Sorry dont want to be nasty about your lovely mare as im sure she is, but to me 3 weeks ago you bought a 13yearold overweight, bargy,wormy mare with mites and maybe in foal yet you think this was a good deal?
Overweight seems to be a familiar pattern in davids horses maybe he fattens them up so they are just ploddy, what happens when they become fitter and get more of a handful well i suppose thats not his problem thats not how he sold it ?
		
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To comment on your overweight point, on facebook Ive been accused of staving my horses and there all skinny wrecks so Ill take this comment, thanks. Seriously in your first post you accuse me of mealy turning horses round for a quick buck, now your suggesting I have them so long I fatten them up so much it turns them in to ploddy types only to return to there sharp terrible ways once slimmed down. Sorry I dont have a magic fattener that pumps them up overnight. In saying that if you saw my belly on watchdog you could suggest Id been taking it myself.

regards

David


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## platypus (12 May 2013)

KellysCobs said:



			Must say Platypus your not coming over as a fan, but again I will take the rough with the smooth. Is there anything positive Ive written or are you not willing to consider any other view than your own.

Regards

David
		
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Fan isnt the term i would use either, and as for taking people views i dont think its a case of this i think its down to fact-Fact you've been caught out selling unfit horses. I have said and will say again i dont think you are out to abuse these horses or mis-sell to the buyers but you have got yourself in a rut a very nice one that makes a profit. You have been shown on national tv doing wrong, i sincerely hope that from now on you take appropriate steps to stop this happening again for the horses and buyers sake.


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## platypus (12 May 2013)

KellysCobs said:



			To comment on your overweight point, on facebook Ive been accused of staving my horses and there all skinny wrecks so Ill take this comment, thanks. Seriously in your first post you accuse me of mealy turning horses round for a quick buck, now your suggesting I have them so long I fatten them up so much it turns them in to ploddy types only to return to there sharp terrible ways once slimmed down. Sorry I dont have a magic fattener that pumps them up overnight. In saying that if you saw my belly on watchdog you could suggest Id been taking it myself.

regards

David
		
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No no no, ive never been aware of these accusations of you starving your horses and i dont see this as the case, i dont state you keep them and feed them up i merely stated that you seem to sell over weight horses or from what i have seen, maybe you buy them like this i dont know its not for you and me to argue about its for you to prove everyone else wrong.


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## horsesatemymoney (12 May 2013)

I've got to say, David, I think hats off to you for coming here and answering questions. I did think (see my previous comments) that you might be unreasonable if approached for a refund, in it for the hard sell and all that, but having read your responses I think I was wrong, so apologies. You could have just read the responses and not commented, which a lot would have done, and I do still think (like the original post I made) that WD didn't do things especially well. Added to this, so the rumour goes that you are banned from running a company- would admitting your active involvement and the stuff on WD not land you in an awful lot of hot water? If so, then again, it's good of you to risk your neck clearing things up.

I can see both sides though: the extra money you'd spend getting a horse vetted would need to be added onto your sale price, in a market where not much is selling that's hard. The email you posted about Loppy, you I assume paid around £1000 for (owner wanted £1200) and from the programme I don't think you sold her for that much more. I don't know how long you had her, but obviously there were some costs out of that I assume. 

I think therein lies the whole problem with 'cheaper' dealers (I don't mean that in an offensive way)- the whole point of doing it, profit, lies in a quick turnaround and so why would you spend more than you need to? I'm not saying that's something I could do (hence I don't deal horses!) but I can see why this has happened. They need to be in, assessed quick, and sold on asap. Buyer beware. If you get people saying they want a 4 year old for a novice, I personally would say no: but if it's your business, all rested on a profit, I can see why it's tempting to take the sale. 

Buyers must take some responsibility too though- if you're novice, and that's what your market generally is David, then why do these novice people not take vets along? I can't afford to take a punt on a grand or two, so if you are novice, don't take advice or a vet, then I don't see how you can complain- you can't put that much trust in cheaper dealers, whose whole point is a quick turnaround. The person with Woody, I'm still unsure how neither you nor David noticed the age from the horses teeth, but since buying him and I assume wanting to keep him, why are you still riding when he's clearly not happy? Turn him away, give him some time to grow up, then start again from basics and groundwork.


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## DragonSlayer (12 May 2013)

KellysCobs said:



			Ive just fainted lol.  Thank you and what horse was it. One thing has just struck me, would any of you posters like to visit? Your welcome by appointment or unannounced.

Regards

David
		
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Will PM you his name, this being internet and all.... 

He's been on a fun ride today and was perfect so I've been told!


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## co-jack (12 May 2013)

Platypus,
Do you sugest i demand my money back? Would you demand your money back?
Mites can be sorted
Worms can be sorted
Diet can be sorted
Manners can be sorted
and a foal can be loved!!

She might NOT have had worms, she might NOT be in foal, her manners are easy to correct and her diet is no problem.
If we were all as picky as you there would be a alot more meat for tescos and millions of amazing horses going to waste.
A little bit of time love and money goes along way with any horse.
I enjoy working with horses, some people want it all on a plate, are prepared to put no effort into making a horse right and will pay 5 to 20 grand for 'the perfect horse'
At the end of the day i fell in love with her instantly and i still would have if it was a private sale or dealer, my decision my fault so ill take care of her whatever challenges or illnesses she brings.
If she droped dead tomorow i would be very grateful for the 3 weeks i had with her.

God bless xx


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## platypus (12 May 2013)

No co-jack of course not and im glad you have such a bond and are willing to give a foal love if she is in foal. Sadly not everyone thinks this way has time or experience leaving horses in the wrong hands. Im not here to argue different cases or reasons why and how this happens im just saying horses should be sold as they are wether a stark raving mad cob or a happy hacking arab they shouldnt be sold as something they are not with medical problems.


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## co-jack (12 May 2013)

platypus,

Exactly, and i'm not defending David in any way, just letting people know my experience so far so good. 
He has admitted he went wrong and his mistakes were debatable? He is willing to change where he went wrong.
I think the vetting before sale would be a very good idea, include it in the price of the horse, a vetted horse will sell quicker than un-vetted. all comebacks go to the vet I should imagine?

Don't forget it could have been me with the horse that couldn't be ridden, or had a short life, plus i'm not out of the woods yet!! I'm just scratching the surface of getting to know her.

like I said fell in love with her, I bought her and ill stand by that.

God bless xx


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## The wife (12 May 2013)

I have personally met Kelly herself and found her to be a very sweet and kind albeit naive young lady who is trying to run a business what I genuinely believe to be the correct way again naively and influenced by her 'business partner'.  She always came across as sympathetic to the horses in her care and had a gentle persona around them.

David on the other hand (who I have purchased animals from before a few years ago, I can only say one thing) avoid like the absolute plague.  I found him pushy, rude, obnoxious and cruel.  When I viewed said animal he was sat astride a pony of no more than 13hh.  I saw horses tied up not allowed access to food or water, unrugged and clipped out in the middle of winter.  Puppies penned together stood ankle deep in their own faeces, obviously ill, starving and without their mothers or water.  The horses i bought were not correctly passported, vaccs or wormed.  What sort of person does that? 

I have heard stories from a close friend who has witnessed this gentleman buying obviously lame horses straight from York sales and within days advertising and selling them on as sound and ready to compete.

I completely appreciate the way you are going about things on here and trying to make right of a bad situation (and i will say you did come across very well on Watchdog) and justifying yourself on here and answering questions but as somebody else stated, does a leopard really change its spots?  Also I'm confused as to why you were questioned on the programme and not Kelly (assuming she is the company owner) as I thought you were not allowed to be a Company director after the last 'incident'...


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## KellysCobs (12 May 2013)

The wife said:



			I have personally met Kelly herself and found her to be a very sweet and kind albeit naive young lady who is trying to run a business what I genuinely believe to be the correct way again naively and influenced by her 'business partner'.  She always came across as sympathetic to the horses in her care and had a gentle persona around them.

David on the other hand (who I have purchased animals from before a few years ago, I can only say one thing) avoid like the absolute plague.  I found him pushy, rude, obnoxious and cruel.  When I viewed said animal he was sat astride a pony of no more than 13hh.  I saw horses tied up not allowed access to food or water, unrugged and clipped out in the middle of winter.  Puppies penned together stood ankle deep in their own faeces, obviously ill, starving and without their mothers or water.  The horses i bought were not correctly passported, vaccs or wormed.  What sort of person does that? 

I have heard stories from a close friend who has witnessed this gentleman buying obviously lame horses straight from York sales and within days advertising and selling them on as sound and ready to compete.

I completely appreciate the way you are going about things on here and trying to make right of a bad situation (and i will say you did come across very well on Watchdog) and justifying yourself on here and answering questions but as somebody else stated, does a leopard really change its spots?  Also I'm confused as to why you were questioned on the programme and not Kelly (assuming she is the company owner) as I thought you were not allowed to be a Company director after the last 'incident'...
		
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Well this is a interesting one. After all that you claim you saw you still went on to purchase from me ?  Me sat on a 13 hand pony. Hmmm I think the best way to answer this is not enter into a direct tick for tat argument with this poster but to say I have never had a horse cruelty case against me by the courts trading standards or the RSPCA. 

Regards

David


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## JulesRules (12 May 2013)

Not that I have a suspicious nature but I find it interesting that the two recent posters with positive reviews seem to have come from nowhere and have only posted in this thread....

Having said that I am open minded about Kelly's Cobs. The Watchdog investigation was definitely flawed and respect to David for coming on here to tell his side of the story.

David - I really hope your motives for doing so are genuine.


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## The wife (12 May 2013)

KellysCobs said:



			Well this is a interesting one. After all that you claim you saw you still went on to purchase from me ?  Me sat on a 13 hand pony. Hmmm I think the best way to answer this is not enter into a direct tick for tat argument with this poster but to say I have never had a horse cruelty case against me by the courts trading standards or the RSPCA. 

Regards

David
		
Click to expand...

The animal In question was a decent enough sort at a reasonable price, considering his severe behavioural problems, which you were not completely honest about, however, we were thankfully experienced and confident enough to sort out ourselves.  I do admit buyer beware and had the full extent of his issues had been apparent at the time of sale, we certainly wouldn't have gone through with it.  The passport for him was never actually received.  

Not perhaps a horse cruelty case but may I be as brash to say that you have had cruelty towards dogs case against you?


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## DragonSlayer (12 May 2013)

JulesRules said:



			Not that I have a suspicious nature but I find it interesting that the two recent posters with positive reviews seem to have come from nowhere and have only posted in this thread....

Having said that I am open minded about Kelly's Cobs. The Watchdog investigation was definitely flawed and respect to David for coming on here to tell his side of the story.

David - I really hope your motives for doing so are genuine.
		
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I'm not recent! and what I say is true....


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## TrasaM (12 May 2013)

I think mr Thomas is playing a blinder here. When confronted with allegations of mis selling horse's he stands his ground and appears reasonable and articulate. Then he comes onto the forum to put his case is a reasonable and articulate manner and seems to have everyone eating out of his hand. Why is it so easy for so many posters to condemn the buyers as stupid and naive and applaud the person behind the sales for being so reasonable and maligned.

Mr David Thomas you are wasted in your current line of business. I'm sure you would have made a most excellent spin doctor on behalf of a political party. one can't help but admire you but I think I'd go elsewhere to buy a horse or puppy.


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## Natch (12 May 2013)

Hi David

I would like to ask;

How long on average is a horse in your hands before being sold on? 

What, if any,  veterinary attention is given to horses in your care as a matter of routine?

What do you personally do to assess a horse before it is sold?

And what do you do if a horse is returned to you having failed the very for a serious reason? 

Many thanks


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## weebarney (12 May 2013)

TrasaM said:



			I think mr Thomas is playing a blinder here. When confronted with allegations of mis selling horse's he stands his ground and appears reasonable and articulate. Then he comes onto the forum to put his case is a reasonable and articulate manner and seems to have everyone eating out of his hand. Why is it so easy for so many posters to condemn the buyers as stupid and naive and applaud the person behind the sales for being so reasonable and maligned.

Mr David Thomas you are wasted in your current line of business. I'm sure you would have made a most excellent spin doctor on behalf of a political party. one can't help but admire you but I think I'd go elsewhere to buy a horse or puppy.
		
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Yup Id agree with this. You dont get onto watchdog for being a nice kind honest person!


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## KellysCobs (12 May 2013)

The wife said:



			The animal In question was a decent enough sort at a reasonable price, considering his severe behavioural problems, which you were not completely honest about, however, we were thankfully experienced and confident enough to sort out ourselves.  I do admit buyer beware and had the full extent of his issues had been apparent at the time of sale, we certainly wouldn't have gone through with it.  The passport for him was never actually received.  

Not perhaps a horse cruelty case but may I be as brash to say that you have had cruelty towards dogs case against you?
		
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Hi can I ask what issues you had with the horse and you say I wasn't completely honest about the horse could you kindly elaborate on that.  I am the first to admit big errors were made in my past and I was prosecuted for dog paperwork being incorrect and falsified.  I will also add that I served a two year prison sentence for the above.  So yes crime committed penalty served. 



Regards

David


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## Natch (12 May 2013)

Ps Not all dealers are as awful as many on here would believe. I bought my first horse from a dealer,  with advice from a knowledgeable horse person (my YO) who knew that dealer personally, and she had a good reputation. He was my horse of a lifetime. And to add to the controversy over a 4 year old suitable for a child,  my lad had been purchased from the same dealer (nowt to do with kellys cobs by the way) by his previous owner as a 3 year old because she wanted something safe to ride and lead her child from. She initially liked him but walked away because he was too young,  but came back because she couldn't find another horse who was that sensible! He went back to the dealer when child did not need to be on the lead rein,  which is when I got him. I would use that dealer again in a heartbeat.


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## Hunter93 (12 May 2013)

Is it really Kelly's cobs? I'm surprised the businesses would comment since bad publicity until things got sorted.


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## The wife (12 May 2013)

KellysCobs said:



			Hi can I ask what issues you had with the horse and you say I wasn't completely honest about the horse could you kindly elaborate on that.  I am the first to admit big errors were made in my past and I was prosecuted for dog paperwork being incorrect and falsified.  I will also add that I served a two year prison sentence for the above.  So yes crime committed penalty served. 



Regards

David
		
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He was a severe bucker.  I'm sure that you wouldn't have 'knowingly' sold one of those for a young teenager would you?  

Are you able to now elaborate on my comment about purchasing obviously lame  horses from the sales and advertising them within days as sound and ready to compete?  Do you have a magic cure for this?

May I also ask who your vet is?  As they seem to be taking a fair bit of brunt from yourselves when it comes to passing animals as fit and healthy and ageing... Personally I'd be very worried if they were making that sort of errors.

As for the health and conditions of the puppies, I may be so brash again as to suggest that perhaps if one keeps one set of animals that are only there for money purposes that maybe there may be some truth in my so called 'accusations' about the state of the horses too?  That were also there for making a quick buck.


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## KellysCobs (12 May 2013)

Natch said:



			Hi David

I would like to ask;

How long on average is a horse in your hands before being sold on? 

What, if any,  veterinary attention is given to horses in your care as a matter of routine?

What do you personally do to assess a horse before it is sold?

And what do you do if a horse is returned to you having failed the very for a serious reason? 

Many thanks
		
Click to expand...

Hi.  The length of time a horse is with us depends and varies greatly. Some we have sold within hours a good example was a black warmblood we sold a few weeks ago. The customer was at our yard when the horse arrived she liked the look of it and asked about it. I explained what the private seller had told us about the horse but as of yet we hadn't tried it but was happy to do so while she was there. The horse went as expected and the client purchased fully aware we knew only what the she saw herself on the first try of the horse. However normal practice is to access the horse over a week or so.  If and when a horse is returned for failing vet may resell the horse put would always make the buyer aware of any problems. A vet failure does not mean a horse has to be shot. It may be suitable as a light hack broodmare etc.  for those who follow us they will remember a horse called vinnie a stunning horse that had ring bone.  We had the horse a year fully explaining the ringbone in all our adverts and to all customers. Yes it but most off but after a year we found him a great home as a light hack and he is still going great guns today.  

Regards 

David


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## KellysCobs (12 May 2013)

Hunter93 said:



			Is it really Kelly's cobs? I'm surprised the businesses would comment since bad publicity until things got sorted.
		
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Yes this is David from kellyscobs the fat sod featured in the program.  Why would we not comment. I'm here to be shot at and defend myself and kellyscobs. I can't do that by hiding away. 

Regards


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## platypus (12 May 2013)

KellysCobs said:



			Hi.  The length of time a horse is with us depends and varies greatly. Some we have sold within hours a good example was a black warmblood we sold a few weeks ago. The customer was at our yard when the horse arrived she liked the look of it and asked about it. I explained what the private seller had told us about the horse but as of yet we hadn't tried it but was happy to do so while she was there. The horse went as expected and the client purchased fully aware we knew only what the she saw herself on the first try of the horse. However normal practice is to access the horse over a week or so.  If and when a horse is returned for failing vet may resell the horse put would always make the buyer aware of any problems. A vet failure does not mean a horse has to be shot. It may be suitable as a light hack broodmare etc.  for those who follow us they will remember a horse called vinnie a stunning horse that had ring bone.  We had the horse a year fully explaining the ringbone in all our adverts and to all customers. Yes it but most off but after a year we found him a great home as a light hack and he is still going great guns today.  

Regards 

David
		
Click to expand...


You only answered the 1st question there

this is what was asked 
How long on average is a horse in your hands before being sold on? 

What, if any, veterinary attention is given to horses in your care as a matter of routine?

What do you personally do to assess a horse before it is sold?

And what do you do if a horse is returned to you having failed the very for a serious reason?


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## DragonSlayer (12 May 2013)

TrasaM said:



			Then he comes onto the forum to put his case is a reasonable and articulate manner and seems to have everyone eating out of his hand.
		
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Talking about a positive experience is not 'eating out' of his hand. I've shared the experience my relative had, so that's all I need to do.

I'm done now, I can see this just getting worse and worse.


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## lisabethm (12 May 2013)

I've been watching this thread for the past couple of days and read David's (Kelly's Cobs) responses with interest. 
Id now like to add my 'experience' to the forum as well, as my daughter was put in danger on one of the horses tried there. 
We went looking for a horse suitable for an adult complete beginner so needed something anyone could ride, was safe, sensible and not likely to buck/rear/bolt etc and were shown a few considered suitable. We asked to try 3 and pointed out that my confident, competent 13 year old, who competes ridden showing and workers at local and county level would be riding to see how she felt on board before said beginner got on board. Now I would have thought that if any of these horses wasn't suitable for a complete beginner I would have then been told sorry but your 13 years old isn't going to be able to ride it. 
How wrong I was! I stood horrified as one said 'suitable for a complete beginner' proceeded to take off across the makeshift school, straight through the fence and took off full pelt towards the stables with my daughter trying her hardest to pull up and then on getting no response trying to one rein stop or at least circle to slow it down and hopefully stop, only to to find there was no way was this horse giving up until it was back at the stables. I praised God that day she is well balanced and quick thinking, otherwise there could have been a nasty accident ensued there.


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## JulesRules (12 May 2013)

DragonSlayer said:



			Talking about a positive experience is not 'eating out' of his hand. I've shared the experience my relative had, so that's all I need to do.

I'm done now, I can see this just getting worse and worse.
		
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Dragon Slayer - my comments were not directed at you. Your comments do  have credibility as you are a regular on here, so thanks for sharing.


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## KellysCobs (12 May 2013)

The wife said:



			He was a severe bucker.  I'm sure that you wouldn't have 'knowingly' sold one of those for a young teenager would you?  

Are you able to now elaborate on my comment about purchasing obviously lame  horses from the sales and advertising them within days as sound and ready to compete?  Do you have a magic cure for this?

May I also ask who your vet is?  As they seem to be taking a fair bit of brunt from yourselves when it comes to passing animals as fit and healthy and ageing... Personally I'd be very worried if they were making that sort of errors.

As for the health and conditions of the puppies, I may be so brash again as to suggest that perhaps if one keeps one set of animals that are only there for money purposes that maybe there may be some truth in my so called 'accusations' about the state of the horses too?  That were also there for making a quick buck.
		
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Could you provide the name of the horse I purchased knowing it was lame and then selling sound a few days later.  If your suggesting I bute horses or use other chemicals to mask lameness then please say so and let's debate this in open forum.  I will of course answer questions about my past and have certainly not avoided the subject but I have openly admitted my mistakes and guilt already so would appreciate if we could concentrate on kellyscobs and the present day. 

Regards


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## weebarney (12 May 2013)

Prison sentence for puppy traders
Thomas was sentenced to 18mths imprisonment, to run consecutively to an existing 6mths suspended sentence, and Blick was sentenced to 9mths, suspended for 18mths, and 60 hours unpaid community work. The Judge also directed that a Proceeds of Crime Act confiscation investigation be conducted in respect of Thomas.

North Yorkshire County Council Trading Standards and Regulatory Services began investigating the business after complaints were received from consumers about fake pedigree certificates, non-pedigree and sick puppies.
.................................................
(from 2006)A rogue horse dealer who caused misery to consumers has been stopped in his tracks by Doncaster&#8217;s Trading Standards Service.
David Thomas, Trading as Horse Imports, Horsebids, Melwood Stables, Happy Hackers, Online-24-Seven and Misterton Carr Stables advertised horses for sale at bargain prices on the internet, in newspapers and in horse magazines.

Horses were advertised with money back guarantees and claims made that they were suitable for novice riders and that their temperaments made them perfect for children. In reality many of the horses were lame, unsafe to be ridden and in some cases had to be put down. 

Many buyers who complained to Thomas alleged that instead of refunds, they received abuse and insults, leaving them thousands of pounds out of pocket and faced with the prospect of huge vet bills. Some customers obtained County Court Judgements which were ignored by Thomas.

.......................................................


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## Queenbee (12 May 2013)

Well didn't this thread get interesting! 

KC, you were quite clearly lacking in your standards at KC, the fact that trading standards intervened and are working with you only goes to prove this.

With regards to Loppys age... Well spotted by cuffy and I'd agree... Closer to 25 going off the chart and photo.

With regards to woodsy age... There should be no errors in ageing a horse so young... Any competent horse person could do it, pretty much most incompetent ones too... As a dealer, passing the buck is not on, if you are selling a horse it is your responsibility to check, double check and ensure facts are right... That is if you are responsible.

You seem unwilling to do anything other than pass the blame onto previous owners, purchasers and vets... Pathetic.

You are working with trading standards because your hand has been forced and because you were running a seriously bad business which compromised the welfare of animals.

Why shouldn't queenie enjoy a retirement?  I have no doubt she was in pain, but with medication this could be controlled to give her a good quality of life however briefly. The fracture, however small was in the joint... Apparently you and your workers can't spot a lame horse either. 

I knew you had form, but I had no idea what an extensive list of shoddy dodgy businesses you had in your past and since KC is now 'working with trading standards' it is clear that you have learnt nothing.

It is not the first time you have been talked about on HHO... You will see in early posts that your businesses have a reputation on here... Shall we say, you are synonymous with the term 'barge pole'

If I unwittingly purchased a two year old advertised and sold as a four year old (one questions the legitimacy of the passport) from you... There's no way in hell I'd be sending it back to a yard like yours.

I'm sorry, but coming on here in an attempt to gain support is awful.  Maybe you should have been allowed a say... To make up more stories.  But quite frankly it's pretty clear that your standards are shocking.  

I offer you no respect or sympathy, you deserve none, your bad press and general bad feeling towards you is deserved.


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## Aarrghimpossiblepony (12 May 2013)

TrasaM said:



			I think mr Thomas is playing a blinder here. When confronted with allegations of mis selling horse's he stands his ground and appears reasonable and articulate. Then he comes onto the forum to put his case is a reasonable and articulate manner and seems to have everyone eating out of his hand. *Why is it so easy for so many posters to condemn the buyers as stupid and naive and applaud the person behind the sales for being so reasonable and maligned.*

Mr David Thomas you are wasted in your current line of business. I'm sure you would have made a most excellent spin doctor on behalf of a political party. one can't help but admire you but I think I'd go elsewhere to buy a horse or puppy.
		
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I haven't done that, I've made no comment about the dealer.

But from what's been reported here, there's a pony who is very young, it hasn't been treated right in it's life so far and now it's owned by people who still aren't doing right by it from what's been posted.

I don't see what moral highground the complaints are coming from.
Find out the pony is 21/2, turn it away for at least six months, restart the whole breaking in from the basics and then you can point fingers.


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## TBsAndWBs (12 May 2013)

Just caught up on iPlayer..
Personally I would not buy from a dealer, I would rather buy privately but that is just personal choice.
I have been riding for 10 years and would never go and view a horse on my own. It's true though, that a vetting is expensive, especially if it fails and you don't buy the horse that money feels wasted.
I would always take either my yard owner, or my trainer, or both with me.
It's not only dealers who mis-sell though. My old loan horse, despite being a very inexperienced 4 year old TB, with value-less tack and no rugs, a tendency to buck and to stop and start, very stubborn, not particularly well bred (bought from travellers), not well broken in to start off with, still had an asking price of £2 000, and was described as an 'all rounder'.

I still fail to see how anyone could think that a 4 year old could be a completely safe kids' horse though. Virtually no four year old is and I feel terrible for those who bought him only to find out he truly was a baby.
That said, my yard owner bought a 4 year old section a gelding for her 4 year old grandson and that has worked out brilliantly. The pony in question, though still green, is very good with the little boy in question. However, they are surrounded by experienced riders who can help out at any moment and the pony is very well behaved for his age. 

Overall, I think any novice rider shouldn't be looking at something under 10 years old. Though I've seen some very well behaved and well schooled 7 year olds before they are rare. There's no shame in getting a teenager!


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## Queenbee (12 May 2013)

KellysCobs said:



			Well this is a interesting one. After all that you claim you saw you still went on to purchase from me ?  Me sat on a 13 hand pony. Hmmm I think the best way to answer this is not enter into a direct tick for tat argument with this poster but to say I have never had a horse cruelty case against me by the courts trading standards or the RSPCA. 

Regards

David
		
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Well we all know that the RSPCA are *insert own insult* when it comes to horses, just because you haven't been prosecuted doesn't mean you shouldn't have.

I'm sure your going to come on in a minute spouting remorse for all the mistakes your made?


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## TrasaM (12 May 2013)

weebarney said:



			Prison sentence for puppy traders
Thomas was sentenced to 18mths imprisonment, to run consecutively to an existing 6mths suspended sentence, and Blick was sentenced to 9mths, suspended for 18mths, and 60 hours unpaid community work. The Judge also directed that a Proceeds of Crime Act confiscation investigation be conducted in respect of Thomas.

North Yorkshire County Council Trading Standards and Regulatory Services began investigating the business after complaints were received from consumers about fake pedigree certificates, non-pedigree and sick puppies.
.................................................
(from 2006)A rogue horse dealer who caused misery to consumers has been stopped in his tracks by Doncasters Trading Standards Service.
David Thomas, Trading as Horse Imports, Horsebids, Melwood Stables, Happy Hackers, Online-24-Seven and Misterton Carr Stables advertised horses for sale at bargain prices on the internet, in newspapers and in horse magazines.

Horses were advertised with money back guarantees and claims made that they were suitable for novice riders and that their temperaments made them perfect for children. In reality many of the horses were lame, unsafe to be ridden and in some cases had to be put down. 

Many buyers who complained to Thomas alleged that instead of refunds, they received abuse and insults, leaving them thousands of pounds out of pocket and faced with the prospect of huge vet bills. Some customers obtained County Court Judgements which were ignored by Thomas.

.......................................................
		
Click to expand...

Weebarney.. Surely this isn't the lovely reasonable Mr Thomas who's been giving such a great account of himself on here.  I'm sure he's just misunderstood


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## KellysCobs (12 May 2013)

Queenbee said:



			Well didn't this thread get interesting! 

KC, you were quite clearly lacking in your standards at KC, the fact that trading standards intervened and are working with you only goes to prove this.

With regards to Loppys age... Well spotted by cuffy and I'd agree... Closer to 25 going off the chart and photo.

With regards to woodsy age... There should be no errors in ageing a horse so young... Any competent horse person could do it, pretty much most incompetent ones too... As a dealer, passing the buck is not on, if you are selling a horse it is your responsibility to check, double check and ensure facts are right... That is if you are responsible.

You seem unwilling to do anything other than pass the blame onto previous owners, purchasers and vets... Pathetic.

You are working with trading standards because your hand has been forced and because you were running a seriously bad business which compromised the welfare of animals.

Why shouldn't queenie enjoy a retirement?  I have no doubt she was in pain, but with medication this could be controlled to give her a good quality of life however briefly. The fracture, however small was in the joint... Apparently you and your workers can't spot a lame horse either. 

I knew you had form, but I had no idea what an extensive list of shoddy dodgy businesses you had in your past and since KC is now 'working with trading standards' it is clear that you have learnt nothing.

It is not the first time you have been talked about on HHO... You will see in early posts that your businesses have a reputation on here... Shall we say, you are synonymous with the term 'barge pole'

If I unwittingly purchased a two year old advertised and sold as a four year old (one questions the legitimacy of the passport) from you... There's no way in hell I'd be sending it back to a yard like yours.

I'm sorry, but coming on here in an attempt to gain support is awful.  Maybe you should have been allowed a say... To make up more stories.  But quite frankly it's pretty clear that your standards are shocking.  

I offer you no respect or sympathy, you deserve none, your bad press and general bad feeling towards you is deserved.
		
Click to expand...

Thank you for your comments.  I would correct you on two points only and let the rest stand.  We invited trading standards to get involved from day one. We contact them not the other way around.  The reason so we didn't make the mistakes of the past and to be fully open and transparent. To add they unlike some have accepted my past and been fantastic in help us move forward.  My second point is I am not here for sympathy but to listen to other people's views and defend myself as I wasn't given the opportunity on watchdog. 

Regards

David


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## The wife (12 May 2013)

KellysCobs said:



			Could you provide the name of the horse I purchased knowing it was lame and then selling sound a few days later.  If your suggesting I bute horses or use other chemicals to mask lameness then please say so and let's debate this in open forum.  I will of course answer questions about my past and have certainly not avoided the subject but I have openly admitted my mistakes and guilt already so would appreciate if we could concentrate on kellyscobs and the present day. 

Regards
		
Click to expand...

No I cannot specify an exact name of any particular horses as from what I had discussed with my friend (who is an extremely well respected horseman In the area so I am very doubtful that this is just hearsay, an elaboration or gossip) - this I may add was commented upon prior to your watchdog investigation.

Again I shall ask would you be able to state the name of your vet used because surely if they are also to blame for so many issues being missed then the general public needs to be aware of this also or perhaps you are just passing the blame along?


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## Queenbee (12 May 2013)

Natch said:



			Hi David

I would like to ask;

How long on average is a horse in your hands before being sold on? 

What, if any,  veterinary attention is given to horses in your care as a matter of routine?

What do you personally do to assess a horse before it is sold?

And what do you do if a horse is returned to you having failed the very for a serious reason? 

Many thanks
		
Click to expand...


Ooh, like^^^

Good questions natch


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## KellysCobs (12 May 2013)

The wife said:



			No I cannot specify an exact name of any particular horses as from what I had discussed with my friend (who is an extremely well respected horseman In the area so I am very doubtful that this is just hearsay, an elaboration or gossip) - this I may add was commented upon prior to your watchdog investigation.

Again I shall ask would you be able to state the name of your vet used because surely if they are also to blame for so many issues being missed then the general public needs to be aware of this also or perhaps you are just passing the blame along?
		
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That's a shame that you can't name any horse in question as I now can't comment further as I am trying to respond with as much provable fact as possible and not rely on gossip or hearsay.  Our vets are moor house equestrian who visit on a regular basis. Could you point to where I have tried to blame them or pass the buck so I can address that comment of yours correctly. 

Regards 

David


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## The wife (12 May 2013)

It is indeed a shame as last time I visited the sales horses could be documented on site meaning that any age/name/breed could be chosen and used so therefore a name of a particular horse would technically be useless.  I best tell my very well respected friend that he is wrong and no horses you bought from there were lame...

I thought that loppy and woody were aged by the vets and surely Queenie would have had a vet visit her at some point and 'missed' her lameness (which I will add was obvious to an experienced eye on video footage of her walking down the road)


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## Queenbee (12 May 2013)

KellysCobs said:



			Thank you for your comments.  I would correct you on two points only and let the rest stand.  We invited trading standards to get involved from day one. We contact them not the other way around.  The reason so we didn't make the mistakes of the past and to be fully open and transparent. To add they unlike some have accepted my past and been fantastic in help us move forward.  My second point is I am not here for sympathy but to listen to other people's views and defend myself as I wasn't given the opportunity on watchdog. 

Regards

David
		
Click to expand...

1.  Trading standards wouldn't have exactly stood by and let you get on with it, you were trying to tick boxes so you could continue your farce.  

2. No, I think you are really here to try and repair damage done to your business by it being exposed for what it really is...  I would say your 'good name' but lets face it, you didn't have one to start.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not anti dealer, just anti 'your type' of dealer.

I hope this exposure from watchdog ensures that your customers dry up and your business closes.  You are not fit to keep a pet rock in my opinion.


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## KellysCobs (12 May 2013)

The wife said:



			It is indeed a shame as last time I visited the sales horses could be documented on site meaning that any age/name/breed could be chosen and used so therefore a name of a particular horse would technically be useless.  I best tell my very well respected friend that he is wrong and no horses you bought from there were lame...

I thought that loppy and woody were aged by the vets and surely Queenie would have had a vet visit her at some point and 'missed' her lameness (which I will add was obvious to an experienced eye on video footage of her walking down the road)
		
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I'm sure York passport agency we disagree with your comments about them allowing you to age name and sex a horse without any checks but that's for them to answer so won't comment further on this point.  Could you ask your well respect friend to comment herself rather than you passing on her comments.  I to have very well respected friends but wouldn't rely on there comments unless I was prepared to name them.  Regards


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## KellysCobs (12 May 2013)

The wife said:



			It is indeed a shame as last time I visited the sales horses could be documented on site meaning that any age/name/breed could be chosen and used so therefore a name of a particular horse would technically be useless.  I best tell my very well respected friend that he is wrong and no horses you bought from there were lame...

I thought that loppy and woody were aged by the vets and surely Queenie would have had a vet visit her at some point and 'missed' her lameness (which I will add was obvious to an experienced eye on video footage of her walking down the road)
		
Click to expand...

Sorry missed your point about vets.  No our vet never aged or checked loppy or queenie.  This was done by watchdogs chosen vet.  Hope that clears up your comment about me passing the buck and blaming our vets. 

Regards 

David


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## digitalangel (12 May 2013)

HI David,

Interesting thread and im still very undecided about you. No doubt you can talk the hind legs off a donkey, and you've certainly got the gift of the gab, i would be really appreciative if you could enlighten me on a couple of questions?

- What, in your mind were your past mistakes and what, in your view did you do wrong with selling horses and puppies? 

- I am wondering why you have answered some questions thoroughly, but not others? Some questions, like Natch's for instance, were not answered fully and i for one am very interested in the answers.

- This is a business right? youre not dealing horses because you love them or for the fun of it.. youre trying to make money. I would like to hear from you what your business model is exactly - are you buying in cheap with no known history/little history/owners fibs or word and not looking for yourself at the horse? Or can you honestly hand on heart say you try to match horse to rider to the best of your ability? If so do your prices reflect the time and money you spend on your horses while theyre in your care? 

I will say that IMHO, Things can be missed wether you are a private seller or a dealer. For instance, when my boy was vetted the vet swore blind he was at least 20, when he was actually 12. The reason for that is he grinds his teeth. Any horse person worth their salt knows aging unless they agre very young, is an inexact science. Loppy i thought moved beautifully for her age ( whatever it is ) but she did look 'aged' but i dont understand why she is retiring to redwings for the rest of her days as shes clearly capable of doing a job ( light work ) and passed a vetting regardless of age. Ive seen plenty of young horses move a lot worse!!!! As for Queenie, without more infomation than ' broken bones' im not going to comment. As for the two year old sold as a 4 year old, on one hand i think you are responsible and should have looked yourself, but on the other hand youre clearly a bit rubbish because you werent aware of a galvelynes groove. 

To be a honest dealer, you have to know what youre selling and take responsbility for that. Dont say that you dont know and turn a blind eye, this is where i think youve landed yourself in hot water. 

As for vettings, theyre simply not worth the paper theyre written on - one of mine was a massive vet failure, but jumped at Hickstead last year, and did very well BD. Another one i bought passed a vetting by a RCVS vet and went lame with a collateral ligament issue which was longstanding a week later. Another horse i had failed a vetting with one vet but passed one the very next day with another. People seem to think they ' need ' a vetting for insurance - you dont. Unless its a high value animal likely to keep its worth and you intend not to keep him for life, you can insure a horse for 2500 and still recieve 5000 vets fees cover without *any* vetting and no exclusions taken from the vets cert. 

Im not planning on buying any more horses ever, but if i did i wouldnt bother with anything but a 2 star, if that.


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## Queenbee (12 May 2013)

KellysCobs said:



			That's a shame that you can't name any horse in question as I now can't comment further as I am trying to respond with as much provable fact as possible and not rely on gossip or hearsay.  Our vets are moor house equestrian who visit on a regular basis. Could you point to where I have tried to blame them or pass the buck so I can address that comment of yours correctly. 

Regards 

David
		
Click to expand...

Well, if I were your vets, I'd be embarrassed to be working with you, seriously scared for my reputation, and really angry you'd just publically named the practice on a forum.

I'm sure HHO admin have warned you about posting such information on a public forum?!!  You've posted sellers emails complete with their name and email addresses, and now your vets, also the trading standards letter (which you may have permission to post) as a business you are governed by data protection laws and are obligated to protect and keep confidential any and all such information.


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## KellysCobs (12 May 2013)

Queenbee said:



			1.  Trading standards wouldn't have exactly stood by and let you get on with it, you were trying to tick boxes so you could continue your farce.  

2. No, I think you are really here to try and repair damage done to your business by it being exposed for what it really is...  I would say your 'good name' but lets face it, you didn't have one to start.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not anti dealer, just anti 'your type' of dealer.

I hope this exposure from watchdog ensures that your customers dry up and your business closes.  You are not fit to keep a pet rock in my opinion.
		
Click to expand...

Thank you for your comments and respect your view and opinion.  Sorry you feel you would wish kellycobs to fail and hope to prove you wrong time will tell. But we have been open for business since watchdog and yes it was affected it but we still had a reasonable weekend with some great horses sold. 

Regards

David


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## Queenbee (12 May 2013)

KellysCobs said:



			Sorry missed your point about vets.  No our vet never aged or checked loppy or queenie.  This was done by watchdogs chosen vet.  Hope that clears up your comment about me passing the buck and blaming our vets. 

Regards 

David
		
Click to expand...

So you had a horse, visibly lame even before it left your yard and you didn't get the vet to it. 

Another question... Had you ever sold queenie and had her returned prior to selling her to watchdog?  If so, how many times?


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## KellysCobs (12 May 2013)

digitalangel said:



			HI David,

Interesting thread and im still very undecided about you. No doubt you can talk the hind legs off a donkey, and you've certainly got the gift of the gab, i would be really appreciative if you could enlighten me on a couple of questions?

- What, in your mind were your past mistakes and what, in your view did you do wrong with selling horses and puppies? 

- I am wondering why you have answered some questions thoroughly, but not others? Some questions, like Natch's for instance, were not answered fully and i for one am very interested in the answers.

- This is a business right? youre not dealing horses because you love them or for the fun of it.. youre trying to make money. I would like to hear from you what your business model is exactly - are you buying in cheap with no known history/little history/owners fibs or word and not looking for yourself at the horse? Or can you honestly hand on heart say you try to match horse to rider to the best of your ability? If so do your prices reflect the time and money you spend on your horses while theyre in your care? 

I will say that IMHO, Things can be missed wether you are a private seller or a dealer. For instance, when my boy was vetted the vet swore blind he was at least 20, when he was actually 12. The reason for that is he grinds his teeth. Any horse person worth their salt knows aging unless they agre very young, is an inexact science. Loppy i thought moved beautifully for her age ( whatever it is ) but she did look 'aged' but i dont understand why she is retiring to redwings for the rest of her days as shes clearly capable of doing a job ( light work ) and passed a vetting regardless of age. Ive seen plenty of young horses move a lot worse!!!! As for Queenie, without more infomation than ' broken bones' im not going to comment. As for the two year old sold as a 4 year old, on one hand i think you are responsible and should have looked yourself, but on the other hand youre clearly a bit rubbish because you werent aware of a galvelynes groove. 

To be a honest dealer, you have to know what youre selling and take responsbility for that. Dont say that you dont know and turn a blind eye, this is where i think youve landed yourself in hot water. 

As for vettings, theyre simply not worth the paper theyre written on - one of mine was a massive vet failure, but jumped at Hickstead last year, and did very well BD. Another one i bought passed a vetting by a RCVS vet and went lame with a collateral ligament issue which was longstanding a week later. Another horse i had failed a vetting with one vet but passed one the very next day with another. People seem to think they ' need ' a vetting for insurance - you dont. Unless its a high value animal likely to keep its worth and you intend not to keep him for life, you can insure a horse for 2500 and still recieve 5000 vets fees cover without *any* vetting and no exclusions taken from the vets cert. 

Im not planning on buying any more horses ever, but if i did i wouldnt bother with anything but a 2 star, if that.
		
Click to expand...

Sorry if I am missing some of the longer posts but I'm also on Facebook and lets just say that's a totally different audience.  I will try to catch up in time and don't intend to avoid any question if present fairly and supported with some form of credible evidence.  I will answer your comments in full tomorrow but will address your question about where I feel I went wrong in the past.  Firstly dog breeding   This was legally and more importantly morally wrong and I regret that period greatly no excuses.   Horses.  Many mistakes and a big lack of knowledge.  Horse imports got to big to quickly and we didn't have the infrastructure or knowledge in place to deal with it.  I do admit I looked at horses very much as a product and not as a live animal.  I will say in my defence horse imports sold 1000s of horses per year mainly to the trade and mainly to dealers who then resold as private sellers. Whilst I accept we had a lot of complaints given the volume we sold the problem ratio was no worse than other dealers we were just very much more in the public eye as I was the first to full use websites and the Internet. I'm not saying this was right just answering the question openly and honestly. 

Regards 

David


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## digitalangel (12 May 2013)

KellysCobs said:



			Sorry missed your point about vets.  No our vet never aged or checked loppy or queenie.  This was done by watchdogs chosen vet.  Hope that clears up your comment about me passing the buck and blaming our vets. 

Regards 

David
		
Click to expand...


Aw thats a shame - im re-watching the program, and the exachange goes like this:

( talking about DOB unknown in passport ) 
David: we have her down as 16
Buyer: So is that about right then?
David: Yeah, Whenever theres any doubt, we always get the vets to do it.

What say you ?


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## digitalangel (12 May 2013)

I am looking forward to your replies tomorrow david!

Im glad to hear you aknowledge your mistakes and ignorance.


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## KellysCobs (12 May 2013)

Queenbee said:



			So you had a horse, visibly lame even before it left your yard and you didn't get the vet to it. 

Another question... Had you ever sold queenie and had her returned prior to selling her to watchdog?  If so, how many times?
		
Click to expand...

No and please stop putting words in my mouth.  Queenie in my view was not lame leaving us. The lameness showed up when watchdogs vet did a flexion test. X-rays were then taken and something was discovered.  I have written to watchdog requesting sight of this vets report and X-rays and will if released post a copy hear.  No we had never sold queenie previously.  We took her in part exchange from a riding school in Cheshire and paid £800 for her then sold her at £1000.  

Regards 

David


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## KellysCobs (12 May 2013)

digitalangel said:



			Aw thats a shame - im re-watching the program, and the exachange goes like this:

( talking about DOB unknown in passport ) 
David: we have her down as 16
Buyer: So is that about right then?
David: Yeah, Whenever theres any doubt, we always get the vets to do it.

What say you ?
		
Click to expand...

Yes your correct I did say if there is doubt we get our vet in.  In loppys case we had no reason to doubt what the seller told us the age was and that was 16/17.  I have posted a copy of the email from the seller proving this point in a earlier post.  I have also posted photos of loppys teeth for opinions of age.  

Regards


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## lisabethm (13 May 2013)

No response to putting kids in danger then David? Interesting! You defend everything else regarding your business past and present but not about kowingly allowing kids on animals obviously not suitable. Think yourself lucky mine wasn't injured.


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## Natch (13 May 2013)

To help you,  you kindly answered some of my questions but I am still interested to know a) what, if any, routine veterinary attention do horses who are in your care get? and b) what do you personally do to assess a horse who you have just or are about to purchase to sell on? I see on your adverts you give details about the horses temperaments etc, what they are ideal for and I just wondered how you come to those decisions about each horse.


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## Queenbee (13 May 2013)

KellysCobs said:



			Sorry if I am missing some of the longer posts but I'm also on Facebook and lets just say that's a totally different audience.  I will try to catch up in time and don't intend to avoid any question if present fairly and supported with some form of credible evidence.  I will answer your comments in full tomorrow but will address your question about where I feel I went wrong in the past.  Firstly dog breeding   This was legally and more importantly morally wrong and I regret that period greatly no excuses.   Horses.  Many mistakes and a big lack of knowledge.  Horse imports got to big to quickly and we didn't have the infrastructure or knowledge in place to deal with it.  I do admit I looked at horses very much as a product and not as a live animal.  I will say in my defence horse imports sold 1000s of horses per year mainly to the trade and mainly to dealers who then resold as private sellers. Whilst I accept we had a lot of complaints given the volume we sold the problem ratio was no worse than other dealers we were just very much more in the public eye as I was the first to full use websites and the Internet. I'm not saying this was right just answering the question openly and honestly. 

Regards 

David
		
Click to expand...


It's easy to get banned here for being forthright to other posters... Not so much on Facebook, that's why we appear more civilised.

Your problems: you have little product knowledge as you say so you should get a vet out to asses all your horses before selling.  You should also have people working who do know what they are dealing with, who can spot lameness and who know about good levels of care, pay them, respect them, learn off them, trust them to care for the horses since you can't by your own admission.

You are prepared to sell within hours of getting the horse, you should no matter what the circumstances cover your back by assessing the horse and its character before hand, it is no good to just pass on a sellers word.  This is dangerous to the purchaser and your reputation.

You view your horses as products, cash cows only not living things... As long as you do this you will fail.  Bottom line you are dealing with living things, with brains, and pasts, unless you recognise this and accommodate for this in your attitude and behaviour you will never get any better.  I'm not saying give every horse a sugar cube and matching numnah and exercise boots.  I'm saying it is possible to recognise and respect life and make money from it, just treating them as things is what's got you into all the situations you are in. 

It is not good enough to say that you are comparable with other dealers... So what?  Your practices, standards and knowledge are flawed... So give up or change them.  You admit you have limited knowledge, you haven't a clue how to age a horse or spot lameness, yet you go armed with cash to a sales buy horses for reselling with no knowledge of what you are looking at. do you know how ridiculously stupid this is? 

The one thing I simply can't understand is why you continue in this line of work when you by your own admission know nothing.  Ignorance is not an excuse or defence.  Riding is considered an extreme sport for a reason... It's dangerous enough without immoral people like you dealing in dangerous and potentially dangerous animals with no flipping knowledge of what your doing.  You are putting people's lives and loved ones lives at risk by doing this.  I wonder, if queenie had been purchased and paralysed someone or perhaps killed them... Would you have felt one scrap of remorse?


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## KellysCobs (13 May 2013)

Queenbee said:



			Well, if I were your vets, I'd be embarrassed to be working with you, seriously scared for my reputation, and really angry you'd just publically named the practice on a forum.

I'm sure HHO admin have warned you about posting such information on a public forum?!!  You've posted sellers emails complete with their name and email addresses, and now your vets, also the trading standards letter (which you may have permission to post) as a business you are governed by data protection laws and are obligated to protect and keep confidential any and all such information.
		
Click to expand...

You requested our vets name and I gave it. Now you wish to move the argument from the points this thread was started to debate and talk about to one of forum etiquette and data protection laws.  Yes I am prepared to name people as I believe it adds credibility to my comments. You and your well respected un named friend along with the so called lame then sound horse in my view adds nothing and has all the markings of someone with a personal grudge with not much to support said grudge.  I feel I have been very respectful and answered your questions despite your very personal offensive comments.  But I would now like to focus on other people's posts. I will however answer any further questions you have if supported by fact or other form of supportive evidence.  I see little point in just answering personal attacks on me if it serves only that purpose and does not add to or move on this debate.  

Regards 

David


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## digitalangel (13 May 2013)

Thanks David for you reply.... I appreciate you feel that you ' had no reason to doubt' the sellers email which i saw and read, but it wasnt her horse anymore, it was yours, and therefore your responsibility to verify the age.

I would say there would be a good reason to doubt, since the horses age is unrecorded in the passport. 

This is what i mean by taking responsibility. If i was selling you lamb, it would be my responsibility to verify i was indeed selling you lamb, and not mutton dressed as lamb. 
The sellers may indeed -tell me- it was lamb but it would still be my responsibility to check - before i sold it to you because otherwise youd be a bit upset with me right?

Your idea of pre-vet checks sounds like a good one on paper, but given that you never checked the age of Loppy when there was doubt ( the passport ) are you not just promising to do what you should have done a responsible and honest dealer?

Also one more question! in the sellers email it says Loppy can rear - is that really the kind of horse you want to sell to a family? What do you do with the ' unsuitable ' horses you buy? How many do you PTS? Having watched the WD program again in slo-mo, Queenie is visiby lame behind when ridden. 

Sorry that was more than 1 question! but dealers have always intruiged me! 

Shame because in a way i want to champion you - that WD program was utter rubbish!!!


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## Queenbee (13 May 2013)

KellysCobs said:



			No and please stop putting words in my mouth.  Queenie in my view was not lame leaving us. The lameness showed up when watchdogs vet did a flexion test. X-rays were then taken and something was discovered.  I have written to watchdog requesting sight of this vets report and X-rays and will if released post a copy hear.  No we had never sold queenie previously.  We took her in part exchange from a riding school in Cheshire and paid £800 for her then sold her at £1000.  

Regards 

David
		
Click to expand...


No, queenie was lame when she was being tried out before she left your yard... It was visible to me, it was visible to others on here... Perhaps the sun was in your eyes?


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## KellysCobs (13 May 2013)

Queenbee said:



			It's easy to get banned here for being forthright to other posters... Not so much on Facebook, that's why we appear more civilised.

Your problems: you have little product knowledge as you say so you should get a vet out to asses all your horses before selling.  You should also have people working who do know what they are dealing with, who can spot lameness and who know about good levels of care, pay them, respect them, learn off them, trust them to care for the horses since you can't by your own admission.

You are prepared to sell within hours of getting the horse, you should no matter what the circumstances cover your back by assessing the horse and its character before hand, it is no good to just pass on a sellers word.  This is dangerous to the purchaser and your reputation.

You view your horses as products, cash cows only not living things... As long as you do this you will fail.  Bottom line you are dealing with living things, with brains, and pasts, unless you recognise this and accommodate for this in your attitude and behaviour you will never get any better.  I'm not saying give every horse a sugar cube and matching numnah and exercise boots.  I'm saying it is possible to recognise and respect life and make money from it, just treating them as things is what's got you into all the situations you are in. 

It is not good enough to say that you are comparable with other dealers... So what?  Your practices, standards and knowledge are flawed... So give up or change them.  You admit you have limited knowledge, you haven't a clue how to age a horse or spot lameness, yet you go armed with cash to a sales buy horses for reselling with no knowledge of what you are looking at. do you know how ridiculously stupid this is? 

The one thing I simply can't understand is why you continue in this line of work when you by your own admission know nothing.  Ignorance is not an excuse or defence.  Riding is considered an extreme sport for a reason... It's dangerous enough without immoral people like you dealing in dangerous and potentially dangerous animals with no flipping knowledge of what your doing.  You are putting people's lives and loved ones lives at risk by doing this.  I wonder, if queenie had been purchased and paralysed someone or perhaps killed them... Would you have felt one scrap of remorse?
		
Click to expand...

My lack of knowledge referred to horse imports some ten years ago. 

Regards 

David


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## platypus (13 May 2013)

digitalangel said:



			I am looking forward to your replies tomorrow david!

Im glad to hear you aknowledge your mistakes and ignorance.
		
Click to expand...

I wouldnt hold your breath waiting for it, hes meant to be answering my questions aswell tomorrow but i highly doubt he will, he only likes answering the easy ones. If you have nothing to hide why are we all waiting till tomorrow for answers?


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## Queenbee (13 May 2013)

KellysCobs said:



			Yes your correct I did say if there is doubt we get our vet in.  In loppys case we had no reason to doubt what the seller told us the age was and that was 16/17.  I have posted a copy of the email from the seller proving this point in a earlier post.  I have also posted photos of loppys teeth for opinions of age.  

Regards
		
Click to expand...


If someone had opened her mouth and looked there would clearly have been doubt... See cuffys response... To that post of her teeth, it is quite clear that she was closer to the image of 25, moreover seriously bad practice to trust a seller and not ask your own questions and make your own checks.  Trot them up, check their teeth, their eyes, check for heat, blah blah blah... I'm sorry David but your getting the same response anyone else would get on here if they came on here with that naive clap trap- only an idiot would not have checked and would have taken the sellers word for it.


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## digitalangel (13 May 2013)

I like to think the best of everyone, platypus. Therefore if David is serious about staying in the horse dealing business, he needs to stop dealing in the low end of the market, up his game, educate himself or employ educated people, or quit the biz. Oh and take responsibility. Bought a bad 'un? PTS or honestly advertise, dont sell it on as something its not.


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## Moomin1 (13 May 2013)

Oh dear.

Just watched the programme.

Thick buyers with no common sense and limited knowledge.  Typical bad unscrupulous dealer.

All too common.

Just to add - that commentary on the programme was a load of ****


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## KellysCobs (13 May 2013)

digitalangel said:



			Thanks David for you reply.... I appreciate you feel that you ' had no reason to doubt' the sellers email which i saw and read, but it wasnt her horse anymore, it was yours, and therefore your responsibility to verify the age.

I would say there would be a good reason to doubt, since the horses age is unrecorded in the passport. 

This is what i mean by taking responsibility. If i was selling you lamb, it would be my responsibility to verify i was indeed selling you lamb, and not mutton dressed as lamb. 
The sellers may indeed -tell me- it was lamb but it would still be my responsibility to check - before i sold it to you because otherwise youd be a bit upset with me right?

Your idea of pre-vet checks sounds like a good one on paper, but given that you never checked the age of Loppy when there was doubt ( the passport ) are you not just promising to do what you should have done a responsible and honest dealer?

Also one more question! in the sellers email it says Loppy can rear - is that really the kind of horse you want to sell to a family? What do you do with the ' unsuitable ' horses you buy? How many do you PTS? Having watched the WD program again in slo-mo, Queenie is visiby lame behind when ridden. 

Sorry that was more than 1 question! but dealers have always intruiged me! 

Shame because in a way i want to champion you - that WD program was utter rubbish!!!
		
Click to expand...

Yes I see your point and fully accept it is my responsibility and with hind sight wish I had. But I didn't so must accept your fairly put criticism.  Again regards queenie I will slow the film down and once viewed comment further.  

Regards 

David.


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## digitalangel (13 May 2013)

i think the worst mistake any buyer can make is not to make sure they have a proper budget for the kind of horse they want. Far too many people think they can buy a complete schoolmaster/gem for 1000 pounds. It happens but its *rare*

I would never buy a 4 year old for anything a child was going to sit on. I do think the buyer there is a bit mad. The owner of the other two i think should have had her transport costs given back, but not stabling / etc.


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## KellysCobs (13 May 2013)

platypus said:



			I wouldnt hold your breath waiting for it, hes meant to be answering my questions aswell tomorrow but i highly doubt he will, he only likes answering the easy ones. If you have nothing to hide why are we all waiting till tomorrow for answers?
		
Click to expand...

I did answer your questions briefly stating I would answer fully tomorrow which I will.  I've nothing to hide and feel I've addressed openly and honestly some very difficult questions. I've been on this forum since ten this morning so forgive my lack of response. 

Regards


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## Queenbee (13 May 2013)

KellysCobs said:



			You requested our vets name and I gave it. Now you wish to move the argument from the points this thread was started to debate and talk about to one of forum etiquette and data protection laws.  Yes I am prepared to name people as I believe it adds credibility to my comments. You and your well respected un named friend along with the so called lame then sound horse in my view adds nothing and has all the markings of someone with a personal grudge with not much to support said grudge.  I feel I have been very respectful and answered your questions despite your very personal offensive comments.  But I would now like to focus on other people's posts. I will however answer any further questions you have if supported by fact or other form of supportive evidence.  I see little point in just answering personal attacks on me if it serves only that purpose and does not add to or move on this debate.  

Regards 

David
		
Click to expand...


No David I did not request your vets name, that was someone else on here.  Well, it's you whose opened yourself up to a court case by breaching data protection and confidentiality laws.  no it doesn't make you look more credible only less trustworthy, maintaining confidentiality even in the face of adversity is what makes a person credible... The only reason one should ever disclose such information is when legally required or with full permission of the named person, not because your trying to make yourself look credible.


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## digitalangel (13 May 2013)

Good luck David, i hope you either up your game or quit the biz coz what youre doing isnt working too well for you right now  Tho i am *hugely* and massively impressed with your style on camera and i would have had the thoroughbred too!

Hope you seriously take the advice offered!


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## KellysCobs (13 May 2013)

Bedtime now will be back tomorrow evening to take my beating.  Goodnight.


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## platypus (13 May 2013)

KellysCobs said:



			I did answer your questions briefly stating I would answer fully tomorrow which I will.  I've nothing to hide and feel I've addressed openly and honestly some very difficult questions. I've been on this forum since ten this morning so forgive my lack of response. 

Regards
		
Click to expand...

Ok if you do reply to me i will be first in line to apologize.


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## Queenbee (13 May 2013)

KellysCobs said:



			My lack of knowledge referred to horse imports some ten years ago. 

Regards 

David
		
Click to expand...

Then what's your flipping excuse now?!!  Ignorance??!!  So your now saying you know how to age horse - but still mis sold them,you know how to spot lameness - but still ignored it and sold as sound.


You say your now knowledgable, so what's you excuse for your behaviour?


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## KellysCobs (13 May 2013)

digitalangel said:



			Good luck David, i hope you either up your game or quit the biz coz what youre doing isnt working too well for you right now  Tho i am *hugely* and massively impressed with your style on camera and i would have had the thoroughbred too!

Hope you seriously take the advice offered!
		
Click to expand...

I welcome your advise anytime and thank you for your open mind. Willingness to listen and not judge.  Only a fool would not take your points on board and while I accept I'm a lot of things I hope you don't think me that.  I have great respect for your opinions and hope to stay in touch. 

Goodnight xx


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## Queenbee (13 May 2013)

OMG!!!

Digitalangel got kisses

Sorry, couldn't resist


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## KellysCobs (13 May 2013)

platypus said:



			Ok if you do reply to me i will be first in line to apologize.
		
Click to expand...

I'm trying to sleep but for some reason can't close my laptop.  No apologies needed and yes I will address every point you've raised.   Just not now I'm knackered.  

Regards


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## KellysCobs (13 May 2013)

Queenbee said:



			OMG!!!

Digitalangel got kisses

Sorry, couldn't resist

Click to expand...

Xxxxxxx


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## digitalangel (13 May 2013)

I dont know why - im not in the market to buy!!!!


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## Shadow the Reindeer (13 May 2013)

KellyCobs, you do realize you'll be eaten alive on this forum? 'No prisoners' comes to mind.
I've sat on my hands and watched this thread with interest. What I do point out is, I can see people posting on behalf of victims, but don't see the victims actually post. Perhaps it's time they spoke for themselves without the need of someone doing it for them.
Everyone who buys without vetting, are potentially opening a can of worms for themselves, instead of pointing the finger of blame, they should be questioning their own actions first.


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## Clippy (13 May 2013)

I quite enjoyed the "Watchdog" programme, it was light hearted and interesting to non-horsey people too.

I think the reason Kellys Cobs was covered was because they've crossed paths with David Thomas before and were bound to be suspicious about his tactics due to previous convictions for other trading irregularities.

http://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news...conman-jailed-for-pedigree-pet-scam-1-2493146


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## Shadow the Reindeer (13 May 2013)

Rogue traders wouldn't be trading if there wasn't a market for them. People looking for a new horse, car etc, shouldn't make themselves vulnerable in the first place.  
Be vigilant, do your homework before purchase.


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## digitalangel (13 May 2013)

I was going to suggest that David perhaps consider a new career as a car salesman, but sadly that didnt work out too well for him either!


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## Queenbee (13 May 2013)

digitalangel said:



			I was going to suggest that David perhaps consider a new career as a car salesman, but sadly that didnt work out too well for him either!
		
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Ha ha, so was I, but then I thought about all the dodgy cars he'd sell to little old grannies who then had crashes when the brakes failed or the steering wheel came off in their hands


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## kateo (13 May 2013)

The Data Protection Act only applies to personal data.


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## Natch (13 May 2013)

Such as names and email adddresses?


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## kateo (13 May 2013)

Perhaps, not always and not the name of a vetinary practice.


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## Polos Mum (13 May 2013)

David - not going to get into what you have or haven't done as I have no personal experience of your activities - I do believe in no smoke without fire tho. 

However as you are going to continue to trade why not consider something practical.  How about a very large laminated sign on your front gate, and copies around the yard giving some advice to potential purchasers, I thought of the following but I'm sure more experienced people can add more:

1) We strongly recommend you obtain your own independent vetting for any horse/ pony purchased.  This will cost c.£200-£400 but will be considerably less than the cost of long term medical issues.  We understand c.30% of all horses vetted in the UK fail, hence this is an important step in the purchase process. 

2) If you are unwilling to incur transport and upkeep costs we recommend you have the horse vetted before it leaves our yard 

3) We recommned you try the horse at least twice on different days, horses by their nature can vary day to day so one viewing is rarely sufficient. 

4) We recommend you bring an independent experienced person with you to a viewing to assess both the horse and the horse/ rider combination.  The person could you your riding instructor, livery yard manager or similar.  We do not know enough about your riding and handling skills to be able to comment on whether a particular horse is suitable for you.

5) We recommend you try the horse in all circumstances that you wish the horse to perform, if you want to hack - please hack the horse, if you want to jump - please jump the horse, critical also is to assess their behaviour when handled on the ground and in the stable.  

You could even go as far as writing these into your receipts - so if someone comes and buys after a 10 min ride in the school without a vetting then makes claims against you - you have a signed receipt making it clear that is against your recommendations. 

This forum sees many many many people who've bought unsuitable horses (privately and through dealers) that if they followed the above simple advice would have saved themselves lots of heartache and £££s.


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## Nancykitt (13 May 2013)

While I cannot condone most of the practices discussed here, or David's previous business practices, I do feel that what we have here - thanks to Watchdog - is one dealer being treated as if they are the only ones that behave in a dubious manner. Yes, I know that just because there are others that doesn't excuse KC for anything wrong that they might have done. But basically, because that particular business, as opposed to many others, got selected for coverage on Watchdog, they are effectively taking the collective flack for all 'dodgy dealerships' in the country.

Ten years ago I was one of those daft people who went and bought a young cob, good to hack, good in traffic, thinking it would be an ideal horse for me and the family. It was a private sale and I had him vetted. The seller said he was rising 6, the vet didn't argue. Two weeks later the EDT said he was no older than 4. I pursued this and basically all we had was a vet and an EDT who never agreed. From what I know now, the EDT was probably right. 
Once the cash had been exchanged and the seller delivered him, she said 'oh, I forgot to tell you, he does have a few bad habits...' To cut to the end of the story, it has all worked out very well in the end and he has been an excellent horse for us, but let's not forget that it's not just dealers that are out of order and it could have gone horribly wrong.

My Connie was effectively a private sale but sold through a yard (thought to be quite prestigious), where he had been on full livery, on behalf of the owners. He was not a cheap horse and sold as a schoolmaster, which he was/is. But the vet told me that at 7 years old his teeth looked like they had never been done, his worming was not up to date and his shoeing was well overdue. Again, a wonderful horse but not treated well at all. We can argue about who was responsible but it didn't make it any better for the horse.

I know some local people who deal in similar horses to KC and I've recently bought a fantastic young pony from them. They offer two weeks trial on a deposit only basis and are very honest about their horses. But they still get horses returned simply because some idiots think you can get a perfectly behaved schoolmaster, suitable for complete beginners,  for £1500.

David has bitten the bullet and come on here to try and explain his side of things. The past is done, there's a lot of stuff out in the open and he has certainly been taken to task. It's what happens from now that matters.


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## digitalangel (13 May 2013)

I think the difference between private sellers and dealers like David is that private sellers usually know the horse quite well, where i think Davids business model is to get them in and sold asap and you cant know what kind of horse youre selling if its only on site for a short amount of time. Davids risk in this case is that he doesnt know the horses that well, and goes on what his seller tells him which could be rubbish or might be true but the crux is he doesnt check for himself things that can and should be checked. 

Every the eternal optimist i want to think the best of David, but having read through the press articles/etc from last time around and also in the forum archive here, it seems for the most part, he has not learned from his past mistakes. In the 2005 WD investigation horses were also sold a lot younger than they actually were and passports didnt match. It seems the passport issue has been resolved and well done David for that, but i cant put a lot of this down to ignorance on his part because david has been selling horses for a long time, and while theres a numpty to thinks they can get a saint with no medical issues for under 1000 pounds David will still be in business.


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## TrasaM (13 May 2013)

He has not learned from his mistakes because he does not consider that they were mistakes. His only mistake will have been being caught out. Leopards and spots etc.
 This is a cynical exercise in cashing in on trust and naivety of ill informed buyers. These type of people are ripe for the plucking. We also live in a society where people will tend to trust those who set themselves up as knowledgeable dealers in the mistaken idea that they get a full refund, as they would with any other commodity, as they are dealing with an apparently genuine seller. 

I'm sorry but I'm not buying any of Mr Thomases remorse or suave explanations or excuses.


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## Nancykitt (13 May 2013)

I agree that a private seller should know the horse much better than a dealer - I was just making the point that private sellers can sometimes be just as unscrupulous as the worst dealers. In my case a refund would not have been an option (or rather, I would have had a real battle on my hands). 

Again, not defending any wrongdoing, but let's acknowledge that: 
 - just because an organisation has been singled out by Watchdog it doesn't mean that it's the worst of the worst. I know of some so-called dealers who really do mistreat horses and will carry on doing so because they just happened not to get the BBC on their doorstep
 - not all vets are equally competent (and there are some that I wouldn't allow within 100 yards of my lads)
 - while some members of the public are just naive sitting targets and it's easy to take advantage of them (like me 10 years ago), others are complete idiots who want everything for next to nothing.

Unscrupulous behaviour in buying and selling horses is incredibly common. This is not a reason to deal out punishment where it's due, but to me there is little mileage in demonising an individual as a means of solving a longer term and more widely spread problem.


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## Suechoccy (13 May 2013)

Nancykitt said:



			I know some local people who deal in similar horses to KC and I've recently bought a fantastic young pony from them. They offer two weeks trial on a deposit only basis and are very honest about their horses. But they still get horses returned simply because some idiots think you can get a perfectly behaved schoolmaster, suitable for complete beginners,  for £1500.
		
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Indeedy. I have a friend who worked at a dealer specialising in similar horses.  They offered a 2-week refund period, or a longer-term swop-it-for-another.  All the neds were about 1.5-2k and there were lots of neds, mainly cob types.  Some customers went through 4-5 neds to find their preferred ned.  These customers were called the "Special" customers.  The dealer didn't mind, he had their 2k in the bank and it didn't matter which horse the customer had.  The customers were happy "because the dealer's so nice because he's happy to swap this ned for another ned".  It was down to the customer to get the horse vetted (or not) before buying.  

If I bought a horse from a dealer for around 1.5k, I'd expect some problems to sort out, be they behavioural, schooling, health, etc.  

As for the earlier comments about Flaxen being in-foal, that can be the case with any mare no matter whether bought privately, from auction, from a dealer.  I bought a mare one autumn about 14 years ago from a top class dealer. The mare was young, been put to a stallion, scanned not-in-foal, so backed and sold (and vetted with vet believing not-in-foal) ...the following April, out popped a foal.

As another couple of posters have said, if you want to buy a horse, you go with your eyes open, whether it's a dealer or private, you take someone knowledgeable with you, you see it ridden first before you ride it (if it's a riding horse), you perhaps try it on a couple of days, you have an independent vetting before you bring it home or during a trial period, you don't expect young horses to be novice rides/100pc behaved (because they're young), and you don't expect to buy a perfect-in-all-respects horse for a grand.


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## lastchancer (13 May 2013)

Shadeyoak said:



			Rogue traders wouldn't be trading if there wasn't a market for them. People looking for a new horse, car etc, shouldn't make themselves vulnerable in the first place.  
Be vigilant, do your homework before purchase.
		
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What a strange attitude to take - Yes people should do more research before buying a horse, and I know it's difficult to find sympathy for those who, for example buy unseen off the net.

But that hardly excuses someone knowingly selling lame/dangerous horses now does it? 

David Thomas I don't believe for one second that he can't age a young horse 
accurately, or identify a sick,lame, lazy or unridable animal.

It's a sad advert for our sport when new comers get ridiculed for falling for a scammer like Thomas.

If you took your car to a garage and they told you a pack of lies about work that needed doing would that then be your fault for not been an expert in mechanics?


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## Janeuk1 (13 May 2013)

KellysCobs said:



			In answer, the original complaint was made by Jane Arkle who purchased two horses from us, she came and tried both at length at our premises and found both suitable, she then agreed to buy both horses at £4000. We transported both to London area for £200 which was less than cost. Jane then changed her mind and returned both horses at her expense and we refunded her the full £4000, not as Watchdog stated £3500. I believe Ms Arkle was of the opinion we should have refunded all her out of pocket expenses despite the fact the horses were not at fault.

Regards

David
		
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well I have missed out on quite a lot of over the weekend!

I would just like to say - The horses were not tried at length at the premises - as stated on a very early post, the weather conditions and facilities meant this was not possible on the day. However, as with having a two week window to try them I took the risk to give them a full try and get them vetted at our own yard. (to visit Kellys cobs was a 6 hour round trip so didn't want to do this three times before making a decision - and before the critisism comes in, I know this is not really the wise thing to do)

Just for clarification, they were not transported to London, I live in Cheshire.
I was not refunded in full. You deducted the £200 'admin' fee and I lost my transport costs, which were £100 to our yard and £180 return. (despite Monty being unsuitable due to health)

Once I found out about Monty's sensory ligament injury I let you know. I told you everything I had been told from his previous owner, length of recovery (12+ months) etc and that he was sold on to the lady who you purchased him from as a light hack (she was fully aware of his injury). I spoke to my Vet who was of the opinion that such an injury would be likely to re-occur if used for regular jumping. (I also did a lot of research about that type of injury, just incase my Vet was being over cautious!) On this basis I didnt go ahead with a full vetting as she explained that the injury could very easily be missed on a vetting as the damage is inside. My daughter was obviously upset as he was a lovely horse but she wanted to jump.
You paid £500 for him (he was a part exchange) and he was advertised for sale at £1995. The lady you bought him off did say you were not aware of his injury as you asked NOTHING about him.
I offered you a reduced price of £800 to keep as a light hack because I felt so bad about my daughter being upset. You refused, which is totally within your right. 
I returned Monty and Ed (Ed had nothing wrong with him, although he was aged wrongly - he was just unsuitable for my novice husband)
It was after this you became quite difficult. You dragged out returning my money and then refunded less than I was owed initially. You then wouldnt tell me when you would pay the remainder. When I said it wasnt acceptable and talked about legal proceedings, you responded by saying something along the line of 'well I might as well keep the money and go to court then. 
It wasnt until I asked about your previous convictions (horse imports and puppy paradise) that you returned the rest of my money (still less the admin fees). This was after you said I was dishonest and willingly upset my daughter by trying to get a brilliant horse at a reduced price (I had sent you the vet records detailing the injury!)
If you had been polite and responsive about my refund, I would never have got in touch with the BBC as I gave you the benefit of the doubt regarding your awareness of the injury and I accepted that with Ed he was just unsuitable - I wasnt out to put all the blame on you (David), but you became unpleasant when you had to refund me and had me a nervous wreck (it was bad enough losing the admin fees and transport costs without losing another couple of hundred just because you didnt want to give it me back!)

I have to say David, you are coming across very well in your replies - as you did when we came to view the horses at Kelly's cobs, I think someone mentioned it before, but you are wasted as a horse dealer. You should have taken up a career in politics.

I admit I was reluctant to go on to the watchdog programme, I knew that I'd be subject to negative comments for my mistakes - I was talked in to it (cos I'm soft) by the programme after being informed of many other cases they had reports of. That doesnt detract from the fact I did have a very unpleasant experience from Kelly's cobs after I returned the horses.


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## Nancykitt (13 May 2013)

To be honest, I can't see this discussion going anywhere now...it looks like the two main parties involved have some fundamental disagreements and the forum is not really the place to sort this. Whether or not we liked or disliked the Watchdog coverage of the issue, the fact remains that Watchdog is a powerful force that will influence the perception of many.

And yes, buyers do have to beware, under all circumstances. The car analogy is, IMO, not a great one - but if you went to a garage and expected a wonderful, reliable, economical car for not a lot of money then yes, you are likely to get stung. All you can do is to find out about traders - of any description - who are reputable and take it from there. For example, our horsebox broke down on the motorway last year and the firm that came to recover it said that they would repair it but it would cost £2000. Now I don't know anything about clutches but it sounded like a lot of money to me. A few phone calls confirmed that I could get the work done for around £300. So yes, had I gone ahead and got fleeced, it would have been partly my fault for not doing the homework. 
Sad that we live in such times, but there you are.


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## JandP (13 May 2013)

Nancykitt said:



			And yes, buyers do have to beware, under all circumstances. The car analogy is, IMO, not a great one - but if you went to a garage and expected a wonderful, reliable, economical car for not a lot of money then yes, you are likely to get stung. All you can do is to find out about traders - of any description - who are reputable and take it from there. For example, our horsebox broke down on the motorway last year and the firm that came to recover it said that they would repair it but it would cost £2000. Now I don't know anything about clutches but it sounded like a lot of money to me. A few phone calls confirmed that I could get the work done for around £300. So yes, had I gone ahead and got fleeced, it would have been partly my fault for not doing the homework. 
Sad that we live in such times, but there you are.
		
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Ah!!  Sense!!  This is exactly what I am saying, these 'perfect' horses do NOT exist for such a small amount of money (in fact they don't really exist for ANY amount of money), and I don't care what people say, you will not find these 'perfect' horses in a dealers yard.  People need to open their eyes - horses are horses, not machines.

And selling a horse as a 'light hack only' with an old injury to a dealers yard...give me a break.  Easier on the conscience than putting the poor horse down probably.  If you do this, you have no right to be outraged by where the poor horse ends up.

I think Jane, you may mean 'suspensory' injury rather than 'sensory'??  But I can guarantee you that Kelly's Cobs is not the only person you will find who won't disclose injuries of this nature.  Just like half the young horses that have had their OCD chips removed to give them clean x-rays....no one tells you about that either!

Buyer beware, that is the moral of the story.  And it has been since the dawn of time, when people were selling horses!  This is not a new thing, in fact it is one of the first things I ever learnt about horses!


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## Janeuk1 (13 May 2013)

Yes JandP and do mean suspensory (oops)

Personally, I would never be anything but honest when selling an animal and the fact that this can't be said of many sellers, private or dealers, won't change that fact. Fortunately, the horses I own now are all very much loved and well cared for. Not without any problems or issues, but nothing I cant handle and improve on (all are fairly young). So for me it has all ended well so I think I will stop following this thread... it just winds me up lol


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## Polos Mum (13 May 2013)

JaneUK1 - any dealer, even top notch will charge you transport costs, if I buy something from Next or Amazon and return it I'm out of pocket by the delivery costs. 

If all you're out of pocket is a £200 admin fee I'd say you got off very lightly compared to lots and lots of people on here who end up stuck with a horse that they can't do anything with or sell genuinely.  £200 is less than a single vetting which I'd expect to loose several times over when searching for two horses. 

I'm not saying it's right by any stretch if the admin fee wasn't disclosed to you in the sale contract - but not sure I'd have got the TV involved for £200.


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## Janeuk1 (13 May 2013)

Polos mum - I think you are missing the point. Had David refunded all I was owed straight away when I returned the horses (less the admin fees) There wouldnt have been an issue. As soon as David refunded my money (again less the admin fees) I was more than happy to walk away. At no point did I complain about transport costs Or the deduction of admin fees until I had problems getting the £3800 which was mine and David had no reason to not refund immediately. 

I reported him when I was having problems getting the £3800 back. Like I said before I was reluctant to get involved with the programme when they contacted me months later because I had put it down to a bad experience and something I just wanted to move on from. (which I had until the programme was aired!)


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## KellysCobs (13 May 2013)

Janeuk1 said:



			Polos mum - I think you are missing the point. Had David refunded all I was owed straight away when I returned the horses (less the admin fees) There wouldnt have been an issue. As soon as David refunded my money (again less the admin fees) I was more than happy to walk away. At no point did I complain about transport costs Or the deduction of admin fees until I had problems getting the £3800 which was mine and David had no reason to not refund immediately. 

I reported him when I was having problems getting the £3800 back. Like I said before I was reluctant to get involved with the programme when they contacted me months later because I had put it down to a bad experience and something I just wanted to move on from. (which I had until the programme was aired!)
		
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Jane, David here and firstly can I thank you for coming on and please dont feel I am wanting/willing or wishing to get into an argument with you, Im not. I thank you for clearing up about the old injury Monty had and that were not aware of it at the time, could you also clarify in the vets report that it stated if memory serves me correctly that he had fully recovered and was back to full health. I fully respect you having doubts over the injury and thats down to you but is it fair to say from a very clinical black and white point of view that yes there had been a injury years ago but he had made a full recovery. Also is it fair of me to say if Monty had been vetted with you at that time on the grounds of probability he would not have failed on the leg that had the old injury.

Thank you for stating Ed was fine but just not suitable for your purpose.

Could you also clear up exactly what I refunded as there was two refunds done to you and exactly how long they took.

Yes I agree Watchdog can be very pushy and could I also suggest without you there program would have been very limited and weak. Could you also elaborate on the other complaints they told you they had. I ask this as after reading your posts it appears you were possible bullied into appearing on false statements. As you can appreciate this is important to me as I have a similar tale from a previous owner of one of the horses they featured who was (in her words) bullied by them to repeat words suggested by them. 

I am sorry if I came over unfriendly and will admit to feeling frustrated with you as I believed I sold you two great horses and your reasons for wanting to return them was not valid. 

Regards

David


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## KellysCobs (13 May 2013)

KellysCobs said:



			Jane, David here and firstly can I thank you for coming on and please dont feel I am wanting/willing or wishing to get into an argument with you, Im not. I thank you for clearing up about the old injury Monty had and that were not aware of it at the time, could you also clarify in the vets report that it stated if memory serves me correctly that he had fully recovered and was back to full health. I fully respect you having doubts over the injury and thats down to you but is it fair to say from a very clinical black and white point of view that yes there had been a injury years ago but he had made a full recovery. Also is it fair of me to say if Monty had been vetted with you at that time on the grounds of probability he would not have failed on the leg that had the old injury.

Thank you for stating Ed was fine but just not suitable for your purpose.

Could you also clear up exactly what I refunded as there was two refunds done to you and exactly how long they took.

Yes I agree Watchdog can be very pushy and could I also suggest without you there program would have been very limited and weak. Could you also elaborate on the other complaints they told you they had. I ask this as after reading your posts it appears you were possible bullied into appearing on false statements. As you can appreciate this is important to me as I have a similar tale from a previous owner of one of the horses they featured who was (in her words) bullied by them to repeat words suggested by them. 

I am sorry if I came over unfriendly and will admit to feeling frustrated with you as I believed I sold you two great horses and your reasons for wanting to return them was not valid. 

Regards

David
		
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Just another thought, could you kindly give the date of the horses return. Also would I have your permission to contact you directly as I would like to discuss this with you and I can assure you it will be very good natured and respectful.

Regards

David


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## noodle_ (13 May 2013)

um wow reading this thread.....


i watched the programme and imo the main thing is get a vetting done (off any dealer.....!)

i personally have once bought from a very dodgy dealer (everything was 7, bay and came from ireland...!)  horse was a psycho, we didnt have it vetted THIS IS NOT FROM KELLYS COBS!!! horse should have been shot but instead we had him re-schooled and sold to a happy hacker home


buyer beware........get a vetting done and novices shouldnt buy alone....dealers or private.


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## KellysCobs (13 May 2013)

Interesting development:  This will all be backed up the affidavit statement for all relevant parties for those who are suggesting Im making all this up.

Just spoke at length to the riding school who sold us Queenie. This is the one Watchdog claimed we sold with a broken leg. The riding school have just confirmed they had been using the horse the day before they sold it to us and had used the horse extensively for a long period of time prior to that. They will also confirm as experienced horse people that Queenie was sold sound and had never shown any lameness with them. They will also confirm we paid £800.

To add I have asked a equine vet to look at the watchdog footage to see if he can spot anything.


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## Amymay (13 May 2013)

What, you haven't asked Watchdog for copies of the vet report on the mare or the x-rays?

For someone so business savvy, you sound very inexperienced...................


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## Suzie13 (13 May 2013)

I must say David is managing to come across very well on here.  However I'm afraid none of it rings true here.

Having known David's ex partner and associate at the previous yards they ran, I'm well aware of the dodgy practices used.  Not only do I know her personally but I also know other people that were employed at the time.  I've heard many stories of horses being sold that were up to 15 years older than their actual ages, passports being purchased which were for dead horses and matched up to suit bloodlines buyers were looking for.  Horses bought from the knackerman as unrideable advertised immediately as suitable family horses.

The list goes on.  I have no personal issue here, never bought a horse from either of them, however it does make me angry to see a known conman manage to convince so many people.

I'm sorry but a leopard does not change it's spots.


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## KellysCobs (13 May 2013)

amymay said:



			What, you haven't asked Watchdog for copies of the vet report on the mare or the x-rays?

For someone so business savvy, you sound very inexperienced...................
		
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If you read my earlier posts you will see a copy of a email I sent to Watchdog, requesting copies of all vet reports, xrays and also permission to revet the horses. So far they have ignored my requests.

regards

David


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## KellysCobs (13 May 2013)

Suzie13 said:



			I must say David is managing to come across very well on here.  However I'm afraid none of it rings true here.

Having known David's ex partner and associate at the previous yards they ran, I'm well aware of the dodgy practices used.  Not only do I know her personally but I also know other people that were employed at the time.  I've heard many stories of horses being sold that were up to 15 years older than their actual ages, passports being purchased which were for dead horses and matched up to suit bloodlines buyers were looking for.  Horses bought from the knackerman as unrideable advertised immediately as suitable family horses.

The list goes on.  I have no personal issue here, never bought a horse from either of them, however it does make me angry to see a known conman manage to convince so many people.

I'm sorry but a leopard does not change it's spots.
		
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Can you provide any evidence of this or is this another case of stories you've heard? Sorry if I sound frustrated but this thread is full of heard from a friend story. 

Regards

David


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## Suzie13 (13 May 2013)

I'd prefer not to name names but I do know Dagmar personally, and have done so for a number of years.


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## FabioandFreddy (13 May 2013)

KellysCobs said:



			I am sorry if I came over unfriendly and will admit to feeling frustrated with you as I believed I sold you two great horses and your reasons for wanting to return them was not valid. 

Regards

David
		
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Sorry if i'm wrong on this - but i thought your policy allowed you to simply just change your mind and you could return less the admin fee? So no valid reason needed?! And no reason to get frustrated over your own policy?


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## KellysCobs (13 May 2013)

FabioandFreddy said:



			Sorry if i'm wrong on this - but i thought your policy allowed you to simply just change your mind and you could return less the admin fee? So no valid reason needed?! And no reason to get frustrated over your own policy?
		
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http://kellyshorses.co.uk/page/SOLD WITH A TRIAL


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## ihatework (13 May 2013)

I don't know the dealer in question. I haven't purchased a horse from them or know anyone who has.

All I can say is that this particular dealer is presenting himself very well, both in the way he conducted himself on WD and in his response to various questions on this thread.

There are some horrific dealers in this country (I'm not saying this particular dealer is or isn't one of those) BUT what really annoys me - is that what could have been an outstanding watchdog exposure, has been turned into a complete and utter face through some very shoddy reporting.


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## FabioandFreddy (13 May 2013)

KellysCobs said:



http://kellyshorses.co.uk/page/SOLD WITH A TRIAL

Click to expand...

so you can then - you just were a bit miffed that they did?!


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## s4sugar (13 May 2013)

"or is not as described at time of sale" 
A horse that has nothing wrong with him apart from being unsuitable for the novice you sold him for is not as described at time of sale.


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## The wife (13 May 2013)

I can assure you as you put it as stories from 'friends' that my comments were not made up. The gentleman in question does not have access to the internet and would certainly not get into a debate about your dodgy dealings on a public forum. A agree with a lot of these other comments, you are coming across fantasticly and if I hadn't have personally seen what I had saw you would have me believe it All. For this I have to applaud you.  I do just wonder who is actually director of your company? I believe that you are banned from running a business? If this is so, why is Kelly herself not answering any of these questions? I'd like to hear her side as I've said before, I have met her several times at competitions and do wonder what she thinks to all of this?


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## digitalangel (13 May 2013)

Hurrah  my favourite silver-tongued devil returns! 

I am eagerly awaiting the answers to my questions!


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## cattysmith (13 May 2013)

Watchdog is more of a comedy programme nowadays. That irritating little twerp and his motorbike really does nothing but make me cringe. I just can't believe that the TV licence I pay actually goes towards such shoddy, and ridiculous "reporting"

Oh and what happened to his little friend who he used to go around on the bike with? Aaah that's right....He got THROWN IN PRISON FOR BENEFIT FRAUD!

Anyway, back to the point...this is Horse And a hound not Points Of View.


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## KellysCobs (13 May 2013)

digitalangel said:



			Hurrah  my favourite silver-tongued devil returns! 

I am eagerly awaiting the answers to my questions!
		
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lol, yes ill be back for more punishment later promise x


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## KellysCobs (13 May 2013)

cattysmith said:



			Watchdog is more of a comedy programme nowadays. That irritating little twerp and his motorbike really does nothing but make me cringe. I just can't believe that the TV licence I pay actually goes towards such shoddy, and ridiculous "reporting"

Oh and what happened to his little friend who he used to go around on the bike with? Aaah that's right....He got THROWN IN PRISON FOR BENEFIT FRAUD!

Anyway, back to the point...this is Horse And a hound not Points Of View.
		
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I like this one. Regards


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## digitalangel (13 May 2013)

david

i want to know how you comply with defra horse passport legislation that says you must transfer the passport into your name within 30 days after buying a horse?


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## The wife (13 May 2013)

^ that is an excellent question  ^


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## crabbymare (13 May 2013)

ihatework said:



			I don't know the dealer in question. I haven't purchased a horse from them or know anyone who has.

All I can say is that this particular dealer is presenting himself very well, both in the way he conducted himself on WD and in his response to various questions on this thread.

There are some horrific dealers in this country (I'm not saying this particular dealer is or isn't one of those) BUT what really annoys me - is that what could have been an outstanding watchdog exposure, has been turned into a complete and utter face through some very shoddy reporting.
		
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Ditto the above. I have never bought from this dealer but in the past I bought 2 horses from one who has previously been slated in a big way on here and they were both exactly as described. however I knew what I wanted for one and I knew what my client wanted and could handle for the other and looked at appropriate horses. having seen the watchdog program it could have been aimed at any seller be it dealer or private person as you only need to go through the threads on here to see the amount of new horse turning into a monster ones that have been posted. some people also need to get real with the prices they pay as you are not likely to get a paragon of virtue for peanuts since they do have a higher value than the average horse that goes through a sale or gets sold to a dealer. yes the market is down at the moment but a safe horse does have increased value over one that has an if or a but somewhere


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## saalsk (13 May 2013)

You get what you pay for- same as in any other buyer/seller industry. If you pay pennies for burgers, you cant expect them to be 100% minced sirloin. Sometimes that will come back and cause problems - as we have seen with horse meat in the food chain - but there will always be people buying from that end of the market. 

I don't have a problem with dealers - I have brought horses from them in the past - both dealers have now been mentioned on H+H in some way or other, but I accepted that paying what I did, for a horse from a dealer, was a risk, and one I was prepared to take. I was careful, took a knowledgeable friend with me, and didn't over-estimate my own abilities. 

If one of the posters had started a thread on here about how the " 4 year old horse I brought for my child seems unsuitable" would have had the full wrath of the forum fall on them for making such a decision in the first place. Any adult buying a horse from a dealer needs to take some responsibility for their actions.


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## BSJAlove (13 May 2013)

We came to see a coloured mare called harriet. Her hooves were in an awful state and she was covered in sores. You told us she had just arrived... That day, however she was so quiet and sad. We asked for you to send us a video of Harriet walking and trotting once her feet were done (supposedly the next day) we didn't hear from you so we called. You had sold her. What happened to her? She's been stuck in our minds ever since, poor girly


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## Queenbee (13 May 2013)

KellysCobs said:



			Interesting development:  This will all be backed up the affidavit statement for all relevant parties for those who are suggesting Im making all this up.

Just spoke at length to the riding school who sold us Queenie. This is the one Watchdog claimed we sold with a broken leg. The riding school have just confirmed they had been using the horse the day before they sold it to us and had used the horse extensively for a long period of time prior to that. They will also confirm as experienced horse people that Queenie was sold sound and had never shown any lameness with them. They will also confirm we paid £800.

To add I have asked a equine vet to look at the watchdog footage to see if he can spot anything.
		
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Are you really as stupid as you come across... Just because she was sound with them doesn't mean she didn't get injured and lame at yours!  A sworn statement from the riding school only shows that they believed she had no issues when she was sold to you... It is completely irrelevant to what happened anytime after she became your horse.  

I could sell my boy to a dealer tomorrow, the dealer could turn him out, he could slip in the field, wreck his leg, go lame, become completely unfit for jumping in the future and the dealer could sell him as sound and suitable for a jumping career.  I would still be able to swear an affidavit that he was sound and fit for purpose when he left me... 

What is relevant is what she was like when she left you and what her condition was... The only thing that the affidavit provides evidence for is that the injury happened in your care, the statement just exonerates the riding school from wrong doing not your business.


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## Queenbee (13 May 2013)

For all those saying David is coming across well, sorry David I personally don't, yes you are articulating yourself, but you are dodging significant questions, slagging off the bbc when you yourself admit your practices leave a lot to be desired, making excuses that simply don't wash, naming names, and admitting that in all the strings of businesses you've owned you haven't once improved your practices.

Horse and hound are letting this thread run because obviously its very topical and will make the top threads and therefore the magazine...  Very clever, the fact that this thread has already breached a number of their terms and conditions seems to have been mainly ignored by them, other threads of this nature that didn't have such a link to high media coverage would be pulled long before now.

I suppose the bottom line is whether anyone on here would consider buying from Kellys Cobs? I know I never would.


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## Queenbee (13 May 2013)

I'd be interested to know if its you David who is posting on behalf of KC ont support of KEllys Cobs Facebook group or is that someone else?


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## Twinkley Lights (13 May 2013)

Queenbee said:



			For all those saying David is coming across well, sorry David I personally don't, yes you are articulating yourself, but you are dodging significant questions, slagging off the bbc when you yourself admit your practices leave a lot to be desired, making excuses that simply don't wash, naming names, and admitting that in all the strings of businesses you've owned you haven't once improved your practices.

Horse and hound are letting this thread run because obviously its very topical and will make the top threads and therefore the magazine...  Very clever, the fact that this thread has already breached a number of their terms and conditions seems to have been mainly ignored by them, other threads of this nature that didn't have such a link to high media coverage would be pulled long before now.

I suppose the bottom line is whether anyone on here would consider buying from Kellys Cobs? I know I never would.
		
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This ^^^ although they always weed out the controversial top threads


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## Twinkley Lights (13 May 2013)

Interesting your comments Queenbee on other threads getting pulled but not this one , the how much is my ex racer worth, one just lasted less than 10 minutes


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## Suzie13 (13 May 2013)

Suzie13 said:



			I'd prefer not to name names but I do know Dagmar personally, and have done so for a number of years.
		
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So David, now I've named names you seem to be ignoring me.  What response do you have?

Plus, as I remember this isn't the first time you've been on Watchdog....


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## Needalayin (13 May 2013)

I'm sorry but I had to go anonymous for this one even though I'm a regular member

I know quite a few that have sold to kellys cobs & let's just say he's not called dodgy Dave around there for no reason.

It's boiling my blood reading his replies on here when I know a few people who have sold to him. Rightly or wrongly (I know I could never do it) If you have a knacker or a dangerous horse, ring Dave & he'll take it off your hands, most of the time without even looking. it will then be on the website the next day at a lovely profit & with a load of tosh for an advert.  

I don't know anyone who has bought from him or know him personally but I do know of his reputation around that area from those that know how to get rid of an unsellable horse. 

People that are buying his replies, need to be warned. 

Call me a troll, I don't mind. I certainly know I'm not & people in that area that know KC's will know that I'm right too.


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## TrasaM (13 May 2013)

Needalayin that Neededsaying


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## Queenbee (13 May 2013)

Suzie13 said:



			So David, now I've named names you seem to be ignoring me.  What response do you have?

Plus, as I remember this isn't the first time you've been on Watchdog....
		
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It's not the second time he's been on watchdog either


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## Janeuk1 (13 May 2013)

In response to an earlier message directed at me from David - I think saying I was bullied by the BBc is taking what I said way out of context. I was talked in to it yes, bullied - definitely not. I found the team really nice to be honest. I didn't want to be involved simply because I'm quite a shy person and being on tv wasn't something I found very appealing! It wasn't because I didn't think you deserved to be called a rogue trader!
I'm not getting in to any more debates about my case but thought I should clarify the bullying reference.


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## Queenbee (13 May 2013)

Janeuk1 said:



			In response to an earlier message directed at me from David - I think saying I was bullied by the BBc is taking what I said way out of context. I was talked in to it yes, bullied - definitely not. I found the team really nice to be honest. I didn't want to be involved simply because I'm quite a shy person and being on tv wasn't something I found very appealing! It wasn't because I didn't think you deserved to be called a rogue trader!
I'm not getting in to any more debates about my case but thought I should clarify the bullying reference.
		
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For what it's worth... I am glad you did agree to do it, I also would like to say that you came across really well... Unlike David   I hope you have now found suitable horses by the way x


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## Well I Never (14 May 2013)

@kellys cobs-i wouldn't even be replying to someone who doesn't own Woody purchased from you, they are just passing on what they don't know!


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## micki (14 May 2013)

lisabethm said:



			I've been watching this thread for the past couple of days and read David's (Kelly's Cobs) responses with interest. 
Id now like to add my 'experience' to the forum as well, as my daughter was put in danger on one of the horses tried there. 
We went looking for a horse suitable for an adult complete beginner so needed something anyone could ride, was safe, sensible and not likely to buck/rear/bolt etc and were shown a few considered suitable. We asked to try 3 and pointed out that my confident, competent 13 year old, who competes ridden showing and workers at local and county level would be riding to see how she felt on board before said beginner got on board. Now I would have thought that if any of these horses wasn't suitable for a complete beginner I would have then been told sorry but your 13 years old isn't going to be able to ride it. 
How wrong I was! I stood horrified as one said 'suitable for a complete beginner' proceeded to take off across the makeshift school, straight through the fence and took off full pelt towards the stables with my daughter trying her hardest to pull up and then on getting no response trying to one rein stop or at least circle to slow it down and hopefully stop, only to to find there was no way was this horse giving up until it was back at the stables. I praised God that day she is well balanced and quick thinking, otherwise there could have been a nasty accident ensued there.
		
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I have read all the thread and yes he does come over as not that bad, after all there are plenty of bad dealers out there. He has answered alot of the questions but he hasn't replied to this one, i know it's not a question but he should still reply to it. I would be very happy to hear his answer to it.
As for vetting a horse i have owned 5 horses over the 27 years i have had them and never had one vetted. I could just be lucky i guess. I also made sure i had another pair of experienced eyes with me in case i missed anything and they spotted it and i have always gone by gut feeling.
4 year olds can be very good quiet horses but you have to know what you are looking at and they are few and far between. I bought a 3 year old to bring my daughter off the lead rein. I was looking for something 14-18 years old but found the pony i bought who has been a saint. I also own a pretty bombproof 4 year old cob, none of who were bought through a dealer, all private sales, except the bombroof cob that i bought from a gypsy as a 2 year old.


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## KellysCobs (14 May 2013)

Janeuk1 said:



			In response to an earlier message directed at me from David - I think saying I was bullied by the BBc is taking what I said way out of context. I was talked in to it yes, bullied - definitely not. I found the team really nice to be honest. I didn't want to be involved simply because I'm quite a shy person and being on tv wasn't something I found very appealing! It wasn't because I didn't think you deserved to be called a rogue trader!
I'm not getting in to any more debates about my case but thought I should clarify the bullying reference.
		
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Hi Jane apologies if your words were taken out of context. I also do understand you not wishing to contribute further in this debate, but could I ask you to clarify just a few more points first then ill take my punishment and leave you in peace.

Do you agree we made two payments (refunds to you)?  Was the second refund where I refunded you the admin fee that was deducted from the first refund.

Regards

David


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## KellysCobs (14 May 2013)

micki said:



			I have read all the thread and yes he does come over as not that bad, after all there are plenty of bad dealers out there. He has answered alot of the questions but he hasn't replied to this one, i know it's not a question but he should still reply to it. I would be very happy to hear his answer to it.
As for vetting a horse i have owned 5 horses over the 27 years i have had them and never had one vetted. I could just be lucky i guess. I also made sure i had another pair of experienced eyes with me in case i missed anything and they spotted it and i have always gone by gut feeling.
4 year olds can be very good quiet horses but you have to know what you are looking at and they are few and far between. I bought a 3 year old to bring my daughter off the lead rein. I was looking for something 14-18 years old but found the pony i bought who has been a saint. I also own a pretty bombproof 4 year old cob, none of who were bought through a dealer, all private sales, except the bombroof cob that i bought from a gypsy as a 2 year old.
		
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Hi Micki

In answer, I don't remember this incident but do accept this can happen and over the years as live animals even the most so called Bombproof horse (I never use that term) can have its off day. We always ride any horse first and when invite the customer to ride. Its then there decision, this is not passing the buck or not accepting responsibility. Horses are live unpredictable animals.

Sorry to those who are also waiting for questions to be answered and I do intend to answer all unless its just a personal attack on me. I have answered already all questions on the topic of my post in earlier post so don't intend to continently repeat myself. If you read my past posts Im sure you will see this.

Regards

David


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## KellysCobs (14 May 2013)

Well I Never said:



			@kellys cobs-i wouldn't even be replying to someone who doesn't own Woody purchased from you, they are just passing on what they don't know!
		
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Hi I do agree with your point and there has been loads of " a friend told me, I heard you had" etc but if there raise a good point I am happy to answer regardless if they can substantiate it or not. If if just a case of my friend knows for a fact you were the second gunman in the President Kennedy shooting I will ignore them.

Regards

David


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## KellysCobs (14 May 2013)

Needalayin said:



			I'm sorry but I had to go anonymous for this one even though I'm a regular member

I know quite a few that have sold to kellys cobs & let's just say he's not called dodgy Dave around there for no reason.

It's boiling my blood reading his replies on here when I know a few people who have sold to him. Rightly or wrongly (I know I could never do it) If you have a knacker or a dangerous horse, ring Dave & he'll take it off your hands, most of the time without even looking. it will then be on the website the next day at a lovely profit & with a load of tosh for an advert.  

I don't know anyone who has bought from him or know him personally but I do know of his reputation around that area from those that know how to get rid of an unsellable horse. 

People that are buying his replies, need to be warned. 

Call me a troll, I don't mind. I certainly know I'm not & people in that area that know KC's will know that I'm right too.
		
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Could you kindly name these horses ? 

Regards

David


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## KellysCobs (14 May 2013)

Suzie13 said:



			So David, now I've named names you seem to be ignoring me.  What response do you have?

Plus, as I remember this isn't the first time you've been on Watchdog....
		
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Sorry Susie, I forgotten your question. I do seem to remember you mentioning knowing Dagmar personally. Well so do I and I will ask you a question. Do you feel she deserved the public hanging she also got?

Regards

David


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## Janeuk1 (14 May 2013)

KellysCobs said:



			Hi Jane apologies if your words were taken out of context. I also do understand you not wishing to contribute further in this debate, but could I ask you to clarify just a few more points first then ill take my punishment and leave you in peace.

Do you agree we made two payments (refunds to you)?  Was the second refund where I refunded you the admin fee that was deducted from the first refund.

Regards

David
		
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No David - I have NEVER been refunded the admin fee. The second payment was the refund of the money that you had kept hold of, with no explanation. You went on to offer to pay me back the remaining money if I wrote a letter saying I accepted it as full and final payment and would not go on to make any further claims against you. I refused to do this and eventually when I started talking about Horse imports and puppy paradise, I recieved a text saying the money had been paid in to my account. There was no correspondence following that. 

I am pretty sure I explained this in an email when you asked me for clarification after you were made aware of the watchdog investigation.


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## KellysCobs (14 May 2013)

digitalangel said:



			david

i want to know how you comply with defra horse passport legislation that says you must transfer the passport into your name within 30 days after buying a horse?
		
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As far as Im aware we do comply but if youve a specific reason for asking me that please do and ill answer you. BTW some may remember I was convicted of selling a horse without a passport and it was very well documented in all the horsey magazines. Can anyone find anything in same mags saying on appeal this conviction.

Regards

David


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## weebarney (14 May 2013)

KellysCobs said:



			As far as Im aware we do comply but if youve a specific reason for asking me that please do and ill answer you. BTW some may remember I was convicted of selling a horse without a passport and it was very well documented in all the horsey magazines. Can anyone find anything in same mags saying on appeal this conviction.

Regards

David
		
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Did you win the appeal?


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## lastchancer (14 May 2013)

I must admit that having sold youngsters that I have started, it is absolutely terrifying how many parents with 'very experienced and capable' kids turn up, who then prove to be rank novices.....
I wouldn't sell any horse at all as suitable for a complete novice, so much potential to go wrong.


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## Suzie13 (14 May 2013)

KellysCobs said:



			Sorry Susie, I forgotten your question. I do seem to remember you mentioning knowing Dagmar personally. Well so do I and I will ask you a question. Do you feel she deserved the public hanging she also got?

Regards

David
		
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Actually yes. The practices you both used to sell horses were undeniably wrong, unethical and dangerous.

At least Dagmar has had the good sense to get out of dealing horses, albeit not entirely through choice but because as soon as anyone realised who she was they wouldn't touch her horses with a bargepole.  Unfortunately you do not seem to have had the same good sense, instead using other fronts so that buyers do not realise who they are dealing with.

So now, can you deny that you sold horses with fake passports, passports that were for other animals, lame and definitely not fit for purpose?

I'm afraid from what I've been told and seen the passports for your horses mean less than the paper they're written on.


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## LovesCobs (14 May 2013)

kellyscobs
I personally would not accept a pre-vetted horse by you or any other dealer, how am I to know that a horse pre vetted had then not been put on any form of sedative to make it calmer and more appropriate for a beginner than it actually was? that may help with long term lameness (but running the bloods is very expensive which puts people off) but it would not help with a buyer knowing if a horse had any form of drug to make it 'suitable' in character,I would also not trust that the paperwork had not been falsified (by any dealer) and I would want to be present at a vetting and chose the vet, any time I haven't been it turned out to be a disaster.
i'm not at all convinced about Kellys cobs (who I haven't used)
I have however been stung by a dealer who I thought had a good reputation, had the horse vetted but ended up with a very very green horse that has had to be completely re-backed by a professional. I paid the price of a horse that was steady and suitable for a beginner (as I had friends who were beginners and I did not have the time to bring on a horse as well as manage the others we have) I therefore was prepared to pay the extra price. 
this dealer did not refund even with all threats and legal letters; and trading standards are rubbish. I could easily win in court but what for? no money would come my way. a change in home or ownership did not cause this it was far too extreme, no swap was agreed to, the horse windsucks which was noticed from the second day and I could go on!
I believe the lady who had to fight and go through what she did to get her money back, I'm glad she did eventually as many of us don't ever see a penny. good on you and I'm glad you agreed to go on watchdog (however good or bad the report was overall).
I think someone on this thread said something about kellys cobs terms and conditions changing? if you need to find previous webpages you can, they never disappear, they are logged and can be searched by date. I did this to check changes to a website.


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## KellysCobs (14 May 2013)

weebarney said:



			Did you win the appeal?
		
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Sorry never finished the post. Yes I won the appeal and of course this is on public record for anyone to check. My point is this, the same people/forums/mags etc who documented my conviction never printed on word of my innocence. Not that I expected them too.

Update: You will recall in a earlier post me requesting copies of vet reposts/xrays etc from Watchdog and being totally ignored, well we have just had a fantastic meeting with trading standards and they kindly pointed out that the BBC as a public organisation are governed by the freedom of information act they suggest I try this approach in order to get them to release the vettings


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## KellysCobs (14 May 2013)

Suzie13 said:



			Actually yes. The practices you both used to sell horses were undeniably wrong, unethical and dangerous.

At least Dagmar has had the good sense to get out of dealing horses, albeit not entirely through choice but because as soon as anyone realised who she was they wouldn't touch her horses with a bargepole.  Unfortunately you do not seem to have had the same good sense, instead using other fronts so that buyers do not realise who they are dealing with.

So now, can you deny that you sold horses with fake passports, passports that were for other animals, lame and definitely not fit for purpose?

I'm afraid from what I've been told and seen the passports for your horses mean less than the paper they're written on.
		
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Yes I can deny it and have the courts support in proving it. Can you offer any supportive evidence of your claims? If yes please show it or point us in the right direction to verify ourselves. So far when asked to prove any of your claims all you've said is I know Dagmar. I will continue to reply to you or anyway providing they support there claims with some form of evidence.


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## KellysCobs (14 May 2013)

Lovescobs said:



			kellyscobs
I personally would not accept a pre-vetted horse by you or any other dealer, how am I to know that a horse pre vetted had then not been put on any form of sedative to make it calmer and more appropriate for a beginner than it actually was? that may help with long term lameness (but running the bloods is very expensive which puts people off) but it would not help with a buyer knowing if a horse had any form of drug to make it 'suitable' in character,I would also not trust that the paperwork had not been falsified (by any dealer) and I would want to be present at a vetting and chose the vet, any time I haven't been it turned out to be a disaster.
i'm not at all convinced about Kellys cobs (who I haven't used)
I have however been stung by a dealer who I thought had a good reputation, had the horse vetted but ended up with a very very green horse that has had to be completely re-backed by a professional. I paid the price of a horse that was steady and suitable for a beginner (as I had friends who were beginners and I did not have the time to bring on a horse as well as manage the others we have) I therefore was prepared to pay the extra price. 
this dealer did not refund even with all threats and legal letters; and trading standards are rubbish. I could easily win in court but what for? no money would come my way. a change in home or ownership did not cause this it was far too extreme, no swap was agreed to, the horse windsucks which was noticed from the second day and I could go on!
I believe the lady who had to fight and go through what she did to get her money back, I'm glad she did eventually as many of us don't ever see a penny. good on you and I'm glad you agreed to go on watchdog (however good or bad the report was overall).
I think someone on this thread said something about kellys cobs terms and conditions changing? if you need to find previous webpages you can, they never disappear, they are logged and can be searched by date. I did this to check changes to a website.
		
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If you read the terms of my vetting it does state your very welcome to re-vet with any vet of your choice. Can you suggest a better way ?

Regards

David


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## KellysCobs (14 May 2013)

Suzie13 said:



			Actually yes. The practices you both used to sell horses were undeniably wrong, unethical and dangerous.

At least Dagmar has had the good sense to get out of dealing horses, albeit not entirely through choice but because as soon as anyone realised who she was they wouldn't touch her horses with a bargepole.  Unfortunately you do not seem to have had the same good sense, instead using other fronts so that buyers do not realise who they are dealing with.

So now, can you deny that you sold horses with fake passports, passports that were for other animals, lame and definitely not fit for purpose?

I'm afraid from what I've been told and seen the passports for your horses mean less than the paper they're written on.
		
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So you state you've seen these fake passports, can you support this in any way. Can I ask as your clearly not a fan of mine why if you had such good evidence in your own hands you did not report this to the relevant authorities ?  Surely that would have given you great satisfaction. Thankfully regardless of a person past evidence is required to prove an allegation.

Regards

David


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## KellysCobs (14 May 2013)

Lovescobs said:



			kellyscobs
I personally would not accept a pre-vetted horse by you or any other dealer, how am I to know that a horse pre vetted had then not been put on any form of sedative to make it calmer and more appropriate for a beginner than it actually was? that may help with long term lameness (but running the bloods is very expensive which puts people off) but it would not help with a buyer knowing if a horse had any form of drug to make it 'suitable' in character,I would also not trust that the paperwork had not been falsified (by any dealer) and I would want to be present at a vetting and chose the vet, any time I haven't been it turned out to be a disaster.
i'm not at all convinced about Kellys cobs (who I haven't used)
I have however been stung by a dealer who I thought had a good reputation, had the horse vetted but ended up with a very very green horse that has had to be completely re-backed by a professional. I paid the price of a horse that was steady and suitable for a beginner (as I had friends who were beginners and I did not have the time to bring on a horse as well as manage the others we have) I therefore was prepared to pay the extra price. 
this dealer did not refund even with all threats and legal letters; and trading standards are rubbish. I could easily win in court but what for? no money would come my way. a change in home or ownership did not cause this it was far too extreme, no swap was agreed to, the horse windsucks which was noticed from the second day and I could go on!
I believe the lady who had to fight and go through what she did to get her money back, I'm glad she did eventually as many of us don't ever see a penny. good on you and I'm glad you agreed to go on watchdog (however good or bad the report was overall).
I think someone on this thread said something about kellys cobs terms and conditions changing? if you need to find previous webpages you can, they never disappear, they are logged and can be searched by date. I did this to check changes to a website.
		
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I have never been convicted nor investigated for  drugging horses in anyway. Hundreds of my horses sold have had blood samples taken as is normal practice. Very easy thing to prove with such good evidence available such as a blood sample. Never happened. yes I know I will now be accused of claiming innocence but why shouldn't I defend myself. In earlier posts on other topics if guilty ive accepted it fully. 

Regards

David


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## sandi_84 (14 May 2013)

So David of Kellyscobs when are you going to make good on your promise to answer those questions people have been waiting paitently for? You seem to have conveniently forgotten your promise to answer them "tomorrow"


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## Suzie13 (14 May 2013)

KellysCobs said:



			So you state you've seen these fake passports, can you support this in any way. Can I ask as your clearly not a fan of mine why if you had such good evidence in your own hands you did not report this to the relevant authorities ?  Surely that would have given you great satisfaction. Thankfully regardless of a person past evidence is required to prove an allegation.

Regards

David
		
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I've never reported it as it has never affected me.  The only reason I'm meantioning this now is because I saw the posts on here from yourself which people seemed to be believing and felt that I should say something, considering what I know.  If there's a chance I can save one person going through the heatbreak of buying an unsuitable, misadvertised or lame horse then I'll be happy.

It simply galls when I see someone blatently lying I'm afraid.


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## platypus (14 May 2013)

sandi_84 said:



			So David of Kellyscobs when are you going to make good on your promise to answer those questions people have been waiting paitently for? You seem to have conveniently forgotten your promise to answer them "tomorrow"
		
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Sadly Tomorrow never comes , still sitting patiently waiting


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## sandi_84 (14 May 2013)

platypus said:



			Sadly Tomorrow never comes , still sitting patiently waiting 

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I couldn't remember your's or the other poster who is still patiently waitings names 
David it does seem a bit convenient of you to forget to answer these questions and it only makes it look like you're hiding something.


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## Queenbee (14 May 2013)

KellysCobs said:



			So you state you've seen these fake passports, can you support this in any way. Can I ask as your clearly not a fan of mine why if you had such good evidence in your own hands you did not report this to the relevant authorities ?  Surely that would have given you great satisfaction. Thankfully regardless of a person past evidence is required to prove an allegation.

Regards

David
		
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Bottom line David... Evidence or no evidence... Do you deny her accusations?  Is what she says true or false in your opinion.

All you keep saying is can you prove it, can you prove it?  I'm sure that many of the people would be happy to prove it and provide the documentation as evidence against you in a court of law, but not on a public thread.  Can you deny it, can you prove you didn't do these things?


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## Queenbee (14 May 2013)

Queenbee said:



			It's easy to get banned here for being forthright to other posters... Not so much on Facebook, that's why we appear more civilised.

Your problems: you have little product knowledge as you say so you should get a vet out to asses all your horses before selling.  You should also have people working who do know what they are dealing with, who can spot lameness and who know about good levels of care, pay them, respect them, learn off them, trust them to care for the horses since you can't by your own admission.

You are prepared to sell within hours of getting the horse, you should no matter what the circumstances cover your back by assessing the horse and its character before hand, it is no good to just pass on a sellers word.  This is dangerous to the purchaser and your reputation.

You view your horses as products, cash cows only not living things... As long as you do this you will fail.  Bottom line you are dealing with living things, with brains, and pasts, unless you recognise this and accommodate for this in your attitude and behaviour you will never get any better.  I'm not saying give every horse a sugar cube and matching numnah and exercise boots.  I'm saying it is possible to recognise and respect life and make money from it, just treating them as things is what's got you into all the situations you are in. 

It is not good enough to say that you are comparable with other dealers... So what?  Your practices, standards and knowledge are flawed... So give up or change them.  You admit you have limited knowledge, you haven't a clue how to age a horse or spot lameness, yet you go armed with cash to a sales buy horses for reselling with no knowledge of what you are looking at. do you know how ridiculously stupid this is? 

The one thing I simply can't understand is why you continue in this line of work when you by your own admission know nothing.  Ignorance is not an excuse or defence.  Riding is considered an extreme sport for a reason... It's dangerous enough without immoral people like you dealing in dangerous and potentially dangerous animals with no flipping knowledge of what your doing.  You are putting people's lives and loved ones lives at risk by doing this.  I wonder, if queenie had been purchased and paralysed someone or perhaps killed them... Would you have felt one scrap of remorse?
		
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KellysCobs said:



			My lack of knowledge referred to horse imports some ten years ago. 

Regards 

David
		
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Queenbee said:



			Then what's your flipping excuse now?!!  Ignorance??!!  So your now saying you know how to age horse - but still mis sold them,you know how to spot lameness - but still ignored it and sold as sound.


You say your now knowledgable, so what's you excuse for your behaviour?
		
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Do you remember these posts David...  I asked you what your excuse was, since you claim to be experienced?

If you are experienced, why was queenie sold when she was visibly lame in the video of her being ridden at your yard? 

Why did she not get checked by a vet for being visibly lame?

Have you now watched the footage of her lame being ridden at your yard, since you are now claiming to be experienced and knowledgable I assume you agree with the rest of us that this is the case?

If you are experienced why did you miss sell:
Woody... 2 not 4
Queenie lame and injured and mis sold as good for a novice and a jumper
Loopy... Closer to 25 than 16

Anyone with half a brain cell would have checked these horses and properly assessed them before the were sold and a proper assessment would have shown up all issues.


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## LovesCobs (14 May 2013)

KellysCobs said:



			I have never been convicted nor investigated for  drugging horses in anyway. Hundreds of my horses sold have had blood samples taken as is normal practice. Very easy thing to prove with such good evidence available such as a blood sample. Never happened. yes I know I will now be accused of claiming innocence but why shouldn't I defend myself. In earlier posts on other topics if guilty ive accepted it fully. 

Regards

David
		
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you will notice I did not say you did. I said as a purchaser from any dealer these would be my concerns if a horse was pre vetted and I stand by that. I'm simply telling you why a pre vetting in my opinion which would increase the price of a horse, only for me to have to vet it again doesn't make sense to me. There are drugs that can come out of a horses system between a trail and a vetting if the vetting takes a little time to organise, not necessarily to cover lameness but that would take the edge off a horse and chill them out more than they naturally are.
why are you doing it? to be seen to be selling honestly or to save yourself money? if you buy a horse to sell on and it fails your vetting will you send it back and get a refund and so save money in the long run? if not what will you do with that horse?
If the vettings save you money in this way then go ahead and do them. but they would not provide me as a customer with any reassurance as in my mind it could be falsified, again I'm talking in general for any dealer.
You've come up with a suggestion as to how you can improve things, I'm just giving you  my opinion as to why it wouldn't work for me


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## digitalangel (14 May 2013)

boo. shame David didnt want to answer my questions. i are disappoint!


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## horse18 (14 May 2013)

In my opinion.

KellysCobs 'specialize in providing family horses suitable for all riders including the nervous and novice' and emphasis this point throughout their adverts and website. And to a novice and inexperienced person they may just get away with it. 

Neither of the 3 horses feature on the Watchdog program lived up to this expectation, although I'm not sure what they were advertised as. The grey turned out to be older than expected (not always ideal for a 'family' as the older a horse gets the more it costs to take care of them!), next 'Queenie' the piebald, seemed to have a very unpredictable nature just from the clips shown, defiantly not suitable for a novice rider and the young horse 'Woody', well in fairness the woman should be aware that a young horse is not always suitable for children but again a 2 and a half year old, in my opinion, should be only lightly backed and is still immensely green, defiantly not a childs ride.

All of this is nothing compared to the lack of compassion showed by KellysCobs. If they valued their horses enough, they would sell under the correct advertisement, as no caring owner wants a horse to go to a bad home. I truly hope they did not know that 'Queenie' was lame else i am sickened at the thought that she could have been brought by an inexperienced rider and forced to work in extreme pain. Surely a man like David himself, who has been round the dealers circle numerous times, and the staff at KellysCobs should be able to see a lame horse and check the age of the horse, considering they must be experienced riders to bring on and deal these schoolmasters etc. incase they do have habits that need to be corrected.


All said and done however, you cannot prove anything on videos (neither those clips on Watchdog or any of KellysCobs adverts) or on two cases of a busy dealers yard. Granted these two horses may have slipped through, but i hope KellysCobs are willing to act on this. I have seen them advertised a lot, as we both are situated around Lincolnshire (or so i believe from advertising sites) and originally thought they could be a small family run business due to the name and what i thought to be, genuine approach of advertising.

In all i am disappointed, that any dealer who claims to trade in safe, family cobs, could let a novice rider buy or even mount one of there unsafe and unsuitable horses. Defiantly builds the wrong kind of reputation. 

As for the 14 day trial, i agree every horse should be taken on trial, no matter private or trader, but using this an excuse, questions why you would be so insistent that a horse can be returned if unsuitable when you sell, safe, all rounder, schoolmaster horses. And also i only saw 2 cobs when browsing your website.

--------

Will be very interested to see any responses to this, didn't mean to sound so harsh, just wanted to express my concern and discomfort at the less-than-legit trading seen on TV.


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## natalia (15 May 2013)

Going to stick my oar in here! As a dealer myself I always recommend that pot. Purchasers have vettings done on the horse BEFORE it leaves my yard. I would rather take a couple of hundred off the price so the purchaser has a vetting if funds are tight as a vetting provides a bit of protection for both buyer and seller. I as a seller will also always request bloods are taken, even if purchaser hasn't requested bloods. I think the main issue here is how you deal with customers, yes it's fine taking horses back all the time but funnily enough I would hate any of mine to go off and return due to being in the wrong homes. David, I know these horses are your trade, but it does no harm to get to know your stock a little better and actually like them as individuals before sale. If your doing it purely for the money then your certainly in the wrong game!


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## Queenbee (15 May 2013)

horse18 said:



			In my opinion.

KellysCobs 'specialize in providing family horses suitable for all riders including the nervous and novice' and emphasis this point throughout their adverts and website. And to a novice and inexperienced person they may just get away with it. 

Neither of the 3 horses feature on the Watchdog program lived up to this expectation, although I'm not sure what they were advertised as. The grey turned out to be older than expected (not always ideal for a 'family' as the older a horse gets the more it costs to take care of them!), next 'Queenie' the piebald, seemed to have a very unpredictable nature just from the clips shown, defiantly not suitable for a novice rider and the young horse 'Woody', well in fairness the woman should be aware that a young horse is not always suitable for children but again a 2 and a half year old, in my opinion, should be only lightly backed and is still immensely green, defiantly not a childs ride.

All of this is nothing compared to the lack of compassion showed by KellysCobs. If they valued their horses enough, they would sell under the correct advertisement, as no caring owner wants a horse to go to a bad home. I truly hope they did not know that 'Queenie' was lame else i am sickened at the thought that she could have been brought by an inexperienced rider and forced to work in extreme pain. Surely a man like David himself, who has been round the dealers circle numerous times, and the staff at KellysCobs should be able to see a lame horse and check the age of the horse, considering they must be experienced riders to bring on and deal these schoolmasters etc. incase they do have habits that need to be corrected.


All said and done however, you cannot prove anything on videos (neither those clips on Watchdog or any of KellysCobs adverts) or on two cases of a busy dealers yard. Granted these two horses may have slipped through, but i hope KellysCobs are willing to act on this. I have seen them advertised a lot, as we both are situated around Lincolnshire (or so i believe from advertising sites) and originally thought they could be a small family run business due to the name and what i thought to be, genuine approach of advertising.

In all i am disappointed, that any dealer who claims to trade in safe, family cobs, could let a novice rider buy or even mount one of there unsafe and unsuitable horses. Defiantly builds the wrong kind of reputation. 

As for the 14 day trial, i agree every horse should be taken on trial, no matter private or trader, but using this an excuse, questions why you would be so insistent that a horse can be returned if unsuitable when you sell, safe, all rounder, schoolmaster horses. And also i only saw 2 cobs when browsing your website.

--------

Will be very interested to see any responses to this, didn't mean to sound so harsh, just wanted to express my concern and discomfort at the less-than-legit trading seen on TV.
		
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natalia said:



			Going to stick my oar in here! As a dealer myself I always recommend that pot. Purchasers have vettings done on the horse BEFORE it leaves my yard. I would rather take a couple of hundred off the price so the purchaser has a vetting if funds are tight as a vetting provides a bit of protection for both buyer and seller. I as a seller will also always request bloods are taken, even if purchaser hasn't requested bloods. I think the main issue here is how you deal with customers, yes it's fine taking horses back all the time but funnily enough I would hate any of mine to go off and return due to being in the wrong homes. David, I know these horses are your trade, but it does no harm to get to know your stock a little better and actually like them as individuals before sale. If your doing it purely for the money then your certainly in the wrong game!
		
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A couple of really good posts


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## platypus (15 May 2013)

What a surprise hes disappeared , just if anyones interested heres loppys video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YmVi51nImdc


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## Polos Mum (15 May 2013)

platypus said:



			What a surprise hes disappeared , just if anyones interested heres loppys video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YmVi51nImdc 

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Poor very sweet horse - I hope the person that sold her to David is VERY embarised and makes a substantial donation to Redwings for her ongoing care. 
This is a good lesson for anyone who thinks it's sad/ unfair/ mean to PTS a horse that might have a little life left in it yet !! 
There is a thread on here about a 30 year old free to a good home !!!!!!! WHY.


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## Suzie13 (15 May 2013)

Afraid I may have spooked him, as I know exactly what his dodgy practices are.

It would be interesting to see him respond now.


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## Red30563 (16 May 2013)

An update from Redwings today, from their FB page, on Loppy & Queenie:

"Afternoon all! As promised, here is an updated photo of Loppy and Queenie who were the stars of last week's BBC Watchdog programme after they were purchased from a horse trader. We carried out the veterinary examinations following their purchase by a BBC undercover reporter... Loppy turned out to be 25 rather than 16, and Queenie has a sesamoid injury in her hind leg (her bone is fractured more than once) and serious behavioural problems despite being for sale as a riding horse 'suitable for a novice', poor girl. Both have been offered a permanent home here at Redwings, they have now gone out into a lovely field full of grass and as you can see, they have become firm friends!"

Click on page to see the lovely photo: 
http://www.facebook.com/RedwingsHorseSanctuary?hc_location=stream


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## hula (16 May 2013)

Hmm... Leopard doesn't change it's spots.


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## Zoobie (16 May 2013)

ooh this makes sense now I received a PM from a TV researcher asking about my exp from buying froma dealer last year and asking me not to discuss the matter. I never replied...


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## jakeyhorse (23 May 2013)

Queenbee said:



			A couple of really good posts 

Click to expand...

I have previously bought horses from several dealers, because I live in Europe and it is not always possible to view private sales as easily. 

In the case of Kellys cobs the appeal of a 14 day trial seemed useful for me to try the horse for a reasonable time before paying to transport it to Europe. 

However , due to a change of plans i chose to have the horse vetted before taking delivery and he categorically failed the vetting before even leaving the yard. 10 months later after employing a solicitor at a cost of over £1000 i have had the purchase price returned finally. I am however still owed over £800 for court costs.

It would seem the guarantees are worth nothing be very aware this is not a good dealer!


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## TrasaM (23 May 2013)

I posted a thread about how few horse's kellys Cobs have on dragon Drivng. I had a look last night again and realised why.. More horses are listed under David -T using the same phone number as Kelly's Cobs.  Ya can't keep a good man down,.. Or a bad one either it would seem.


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## sandi_84 (23 May 2013)

I find it quite interesting (if that's the right word)  that he never came back to answer peoples questions etc...


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## misterjinglejay (24 May 2013)

sandi_84 said:



			I find it quite interesting (if that's the right word)  that he never came back to answer peoples questions etc...
		
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Absolutely!


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## horse18 (24 May 2013)

I really hope Kellys Cobs new website and more honest adverts are genuine and this is a new start for them. 

http://kellyshorses.co.uk/index.php

I said hope... in theory this is not so realistic.


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## Clippy (25 May 2013)

I don't think the re-vamped website is going to wash with many people. For a start, the name is wrong - Kellys Cobs is misleading and was originally designed to hide the identity of the person behind it. We've not heard much at all from "Kelly" have we? A more apt name would be "Daves Dodges". He's not even legally allowed to run a limited company.

http://www.ourdogs.co.uk/News/2006/April2006/News280406/watchdog.htm

This guy has been sent to prison for fraud. He has Trading Standards all over him all the time. He's not interested in cleaning his act up, just lying to make it look that way. He's been the star of Watchdog a couple of times and had countless CCJ's registered against him. Some on HHO have tested his "money back warranty" and had nothing but trouble so really it's no surprise he did a runner once the questions on the forum got harder and the thread attracted a few more disgruntled customers.


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## mdfreeman37 (26 May 2013)

Just spotted horse for all arenas on horsemart with same mobile number as Kelly's cobs so looks like not just dragon diving ads changing. The same horses are also on Kelly's cobs website......


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## Hardabit (11 July 2013)

KellysCobs said:



			for those who follow us they will remember a horse called vinnie a stunning horse that had ring bone.  We had the horse a year fully explaining the ringbone in all our adverts and to all customers. Yes it but most off but after a year we found him a great home as a light hack and he is still going great guns today.  

Regards 

David
		
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Hi David

Came upon this thread as my better half was talking this evening about what was happening between yourselves and Watchdog  and I thought I'd do a google and see what came up. I was stunned to see Vinny (not Vinnie) mentioned in the thread so I've signed up just to post how about how he's coming along and to give my viewpoint on the sale / purchase.

We were advised fully on the phone on initial enquiry about the ringbone and this was mentioned again when we came up to see you. Both vet and blacksmith have since given the same opinion that this is due to a knock sustained probably while hunting and is not degenerative. Also both agree that this is not causing any discomfort or pain to him and that to all intents and purposes he is sound for any reasonable use.

When we bought him we explained that his purpose would be for my wife to hack out on alone (also I was meant to learn to ride on him but I can't get her off him long enough for a lesson - but that's incidental). We were therefore quite unhappy when we got him home to find he had problems with napping, roadwork and that he did not like at all being on his own. Was this misrepresentation - possibly although with the number of horses you had passing through it's also possible you just didn't notice any change in his behaviour during the year you had him. Out of interest was he sold and returned a few times during that period? We ask as it seemed to both of us that Vinny kind of "switched" once we'd had him a while and once he came to trust and have confidence in my wife she was able to rapidly start to overcome these problems. That's why we wonder if he was in and out from you a few times and lost his confidence in people.

As advertised he is snaffle mouthed and has perfect manners around the yard.

Confidence is a two way thing and I'm happy to report that for the first time in her 40+ years my wife took part in a jumping round at a local show. Only 60cm (which Vinny could almost walk over) but she was smiling for a week afterwards.

He's a big gentle giant (17h2 irish sports horse) who is hopefully enjoying his life. We've moved recently to a livery yard on a nature reserve so he has almost limitless amounts of riding through beautiful countryside.

Would we deal with you again? - Yes.
Would we be a little more wary? - No not really. You're in the business of moving flesh and we always had the option of returning him.

We paid £1K or so for him and we feel like we robbed you. My wife would not part with him.

I notice from some previous posts that there is some suspicion regarding first time posters who have a good word to say about Kellys Cobs. If anyone has any doubts about me feel free to PM and I'll happilly send you photos I've taken over the last few months we've had him. It's no bother I jump at any chance to show him off.


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## Patterdale (12 July 2013)

What a glowing review. 

Almost as if David had written it himself. 

Oh wait.........


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## Amymay (12 July 2013)

Think you might want a different vet Hardabit.  Ringbone is most definitely degenerative.

However, thrilled to hear you're happy with the horse.


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## lannerch (12 July 2013)

And why post now, this thread must have been totally buried ....... I smell a rat!


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## mtj (12 July 2013)

amymay said:



			Think you might want a different vet Hardabit.  Ringbone is most definitely degenerative.

However, thrilled to hear you're happy with the horse.
		
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Totally agree.

But would point out,  is the ringbone outside or inside the joint?  My horse does have articular (in the joint) ringbone, and I am under strict vet orders not to jump.  We also have to be extremely careful with ground conditions.

Whilst he would be (physically) suitable for a happy hacker who enjoys quiet hacks, going for a jolly would be a poor idea.

I have seen this episode of Watchdog.  Bargepole!!


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## benson21 (12 July 2013)

I missed this episode!!  has anyone got a link to it please?  Sounds an interesting watch!!


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## Janeuk1 (15 July 2013)

BBC watchdog contacted me again recently - apparently David had written to them saying I had admitted on here that he had refunded ALL my money in full. I had to take screen shots and send a link to this forum to prove I definitely didnt write he had repaid me in full (as he never did). The guy just doesnt give up!


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## ribbons (15 July 2013)

Blimey !!!!!!!!

Didn't see programme and must have missed this thread first time round, and haven't read it all now as I got bored reading through post after post of nonsense in order to find the odd one worth reading.
This thread, more than most has made me realise the lack of knowledge among horse owners these days is quite frightening.

No horse is 100% safe, it's an animal with an unpredictable nature sometimes, but to put 4 year old and 100% safe in the same sentence is a warning siren to any knowledgable buyer.

Someone who bought from this dealer and says featured in the programme posted they were NOT a novice and went on to say the horse they bought had a sensory ligament injury. At first I assumed a typo but no, it was repeated further on.
Anyone experienced know what a sensory ligament is ?

I'm happy to look at a horse from a dealer, I know my job.

If I need a car however, I take a knowledgable person with me, I just don't know enough.

A horse dealer is no different to a car dealer, they won't blatantly lie, they know their obligations under the law, but they can smell an inexperienced buyer a mile away and will use it to their advantage.

I have no sympathy whatsoever with the folk that think they know enough and clearly don't.  

Obviously a horse is different to a car, its a living thing and I feel very sad for these horses. But for the buyers, no, they deserve to be exploited if they are too tight or too arrogant to take expert advice. Without this type of buyer, dealers would not be passing around these poor horses. 

Trouble is so many people think they are experts, because they know how to put a saddle and bridle on.

I'm sure my post will bring many indignant replies but I have no intention of taking part in any response, its just common sense really, seek expert help, end of. The bottom line is, too many numpty buyers creating many unscrupulous dealers. 
40 / 50 years ago a dealer was a damn good place to look for a horse, their customers knew to much for them to be able to pass off dodgy stock. Like most aspects of horse owning, those days are sadly long gone.


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## Janeuk1 (15 July 2013)

ribbons said:



			Blimey !!!!!!!!


Someone who bought from this dealer and says featured in the programme posted they were NOT a novice and went on to say the horse they bought had a sensory ligament injury. At first I assumed a typo but no, it was repeated further on.
Anyone experienced know what a sensory ligament is ?

yes --- it should have said Suspensory Ligament injury. An error in the description on my part, hardly makes me a numpty and doesnt mean I am a novice. However, I'm not a medical expert either and there are, I am sure, a lot of ailments that I would not be knowledgable on - Thats what I pay my vet for.
		
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## ozpoz (15 July 2013)

Ribbons, I agree with you. I was having a similar conversation with a friend last night, and we both remarked on how there are far,far many more inexperienced horse owners around who , thanks to the internet, have learned key words and phrases of horsemanship and are perfectly happy to pass on their uninformed opinions. Many feel they are experienced horse owners and have no idea how little they know. 
My children learned on 4 year olds - for financial reasons. They didn't have so much fun to begin with, but learned that to make a trustworthy pony takes time. After a proper initial training they could happily hack alone, do all pc activities,compete and be generally good child's ponies. However, they had experienced supervision and that is the missing factor often.
Any horse can be miserable or behave badly in a new yard. Unfamiliarity, badly fitting tack, lack of knowledge can all be factors. 
I am equally wary of buying horses from private owners or dealers, or breeders. It is always a risk.
(Unlike a car which won't be stressed by strange surroundings or unsuitable   handling/expectations.)  I didn't see the programme and I don't know anyone involved!


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## lastchancer (15 July 2013)

ribbons said:



			Blimey !!!!!!!!

Didn't see programme and must have missed this thread first time round, and haven't read it all now as I got bored reading through post after post of nonsense in order to find the odd one worth reading.
This thread, more than most has made me realise the lack of knowledge among horse owners these days is quite frightening.

No horse is 100% safe, it's an animal with an unpredictable nature sometimes, but to put 4 year old and 100% safe in the same sentence is a warning siren to any knowledgable buyer.

Someone who bought from this dealer and says featured in the programme posted they were NOT a novice and went on to say the horse they bought had a sensory ligament injury. At first I assumed a typo but no, it was repeated further on.
Anyone experienced know what a sensory ligament is ?

I'm happy to look at a horse from a dealer, I know my job.

If I need a car however, I take a knowledgable person with me, I just don't know enough.

A horse dealer is no different to a car dealer, they won't blatantly lie, they know their obligations under the law, but they can smell an inexperienced buyer a mile away and will use it to their advantage.


I have no sympathy whatsoever with the folk that think they know enough and clearly don't.  

Obviously a horse is different to a car, its a living thing and I feel very sad for these horses. But for the buyers, no, they deserve to be exploited if they are too tight or too arrogant to take expert advice. Without this type of buyer, dealers would not be passing around these poor horses. 
Trouble is so many people think they are experts, because they know how to put a saddle and bridle on.

I'm sure my post will bring many indignant replies but I have no intention of taking part in any response, its just common sense really, seek expert help, end of. The bottom line is, too many numpty buyers creating many unscrupulous dealers. 
40 / 50 years ago a dealer was a damn good place to look for a horse, their customers knew to much for them to be able to pass off dodgy stock. Like most aspects of horse owning, those days are sadly long gone.
		
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Have you never been to the sales? A lot of dealers DO lie. Blatantly. Thats why sales have such a bad rep, prices are crap and why most people wont take genuine horses to one.... 

You think novice buyers deserve to be exploited?? Really? Who else deserves to be exploited in your world? Naive/vulnerable young people? The trusting elderly man/woman, whose life savings have just been taken by some con-artist? People from abroad trying to earn a better living in another country?
Sure without gullible buyers these dealers would have no trade, but if the dealers could actually produce, train, work horses properly then maybe they could earn a living without stuffing novices with dodgy horses. In my opinion the real idiots are the dealers such as the star of this thread. (not bashing all horse traders btw)
40 / 50 years ago there were unscrupulous dealers as well as good, just like now.


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## co-jack (15 July 2013)

I think what madaaarrrmm is trying to say is "you need at least 50 yrs experience to own a horse and jesus if you havent got that, DONT BUY ONE!!" simple

haha what a pompous pratt!!
You probably still have your horses bought FOR you, brought TO you, fully trained, tacked up, if it plays up you whack the groom!! lol
Your obviously old enough to do your own chin strap up though..ye? ye thought so x bless

whatever you are, i wish you success.. but hey this is a debate on dealers! why get involved if you think so low of the people who go there?

Too tight or too arrogant!!

This type of buyer.. ooo were geting in to types now?? what type are you???

Too many numpty buyers creating many unscruplous dealers??

Hey only the rich are allowed horses now...everybody better have a think now this lady has spoken haha x

 NUMPTY brilliant word,  nice view of how you see novices.
NOVICES will always want their own first horse x get real, rich or not, they will go to any lengths to get it, vet or no vet, heart break or love xxx


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