# We ALL want barefoot research except the BEVA?



## cptrayes (10 May 2012)

This post from Rockley says it all for me 

The key points are as follows. The British Equine Veterinary Association asked for short presentations to their conference on the following basis. The emphasis is mine:




			"Abstracts should report recent clinical research. This may include* observational reports *on clinical case series, accounts of new techniques in vitro or in vivo experimental studies; *preliminary findings will be considered*. "
		
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Bearing in mind that:

- the abstract submitted showed a success rate far in excess of conventional treatments.

- the submission was supported by a Professor of a major teaching hospital

- the study was limited only to those horses with MRI scans where there was certainty as to the initial diagnosis

- the failure of conventional treatment results in the premature death of many horses a year  and the retirement of many more.

- the BEVA is an organisation which supports treatments with adequan, tildren, bar shoes, which have no or almost no research to back up their efficacy in resolving caudal hoof lameness


why did the BEVA not accept it?

They have not, as you will see, responded to the authors request to know why not, or what else she can do to improve it.  If they felt is was not good enough in spite of advice from a Professor and a researcher who had presented previous papers to the conference, this is inexcusable.

Full post here:

http://rockleyfarm.blogspot.co.uk/2012/05/or-alternatively-shoot-horse.html


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## ThePony (10 May 2012)

The world has officially gone mad. 

I'm not one for consiricy theories, but your mind has to wonder to that sort of conclusion. There is a massive industry around these conditions, and of course money talks. Why on earth would a) the paper not be considered worthy of presentation given the sound research structure, relatively large sample pool and solid scientific proof; and b) the subject matter not be considered well worth looking into further given the devastating effects the condition has on horses working lives and even the chance of a comfortable retirement?

If nothing else, barefoot is becoming much more popular, and if vets etc feel that it isn't a reasnoble horse care choice then surely it is still a reason to bring this info into the open so that peers might suggest reasons this is the case and make suggestions for how the research might be improved upon. Surely that is the point of a peer review process? (I assume that is how papers are selected for this particular conference?).

Complete and utter madness, or just an awful, terrifying level of close mindedness by those we trust our horses health with?

My mind is just boggling. I so so hope that this knock back doesn't put the authors off further attempts to get the results recognised and in the open, particularly with professionals accociated with horse care. Keep at it Nic, so many horses are here at all and also comfortably and soundly working because of your work. The positive effects you have had on so many is just mind blowing.


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## dieseldog (10 May 2012)

Are there any studies in shod horses that they can compare against?


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## cptrayes (10 May 2012)

dieseldog said:



			Are there any studies in shod horses that they can compare against?
		
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There are two studies that I am aware of into conventional treatment of caudal hoof lameness, one of which shows a recovery rate of 27% and the other of 20%, both far lower than this abstract.  Their definition of "recovery" is interesting as well. I believe that they count it as success if the horse works much at all, and certainly accept restrictions like "we are careful what we do" and "we don't work on hard ground".


I should have added to my points:

- most of the horses included in the abstract had _already been failed_ by conventional treatment.


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## ThePony (10 May 2012)

cptrayes said:



			There are two studies that I am aware of into conventional treatment of caudal hoof lameness, one of which shows a recovery rate of 27% and the other of 20%, both far lower than this abstract.  Their definition of "recovery" is interesting as well. I believe that they count it as success if the horse works much at all, and certainly accept restrictions like "we are careful what we do" and "we don't work on hard ground".
		
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ohh, I'd be really interested on reading those. I don't suppose you have links or remember what they were published in?


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## SusieT (10 May 2012)

There is another study which you happily choose to ignore cptrayes which shows approximately 50% recovery. Rockey is currently at what, 85%? So good, not total cure. Does Nic have any scientific qualifications?this may be what's holding her back? I don't really know to be honest, can't see a conspiracy theory myself but would be nice if they would give feedback on why it was rejected.


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## ThePony (10 May 2012)

SusieT said:



			There is another study which you happily choose to ignore cptrayes which shows approximately 50% recovery. Rockey is currently at what, 85%? So good, not total cure. Does Nic have any scientific qualifications?this may be what's holding her back? I don't really know to be honest, can't see a conspiracy theory myself but would be nice if they would give feedback on why it was rejected.
		
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Sorry to be a boring nerd, do you have a link to that one? I find it facinating reading (it's ok, I know I need to get a life!).

Nic had back up from a prof (can't bring his name to mind atm) and also a rockly rehab who has experience submitting papers to peer reviewed conferences and journals. If the work is sound though I don't see any relavence of the qualifications of the lead author?

For me, the feedback is the crucial thing. Just saying no, with no feedback is pretty poor. That those reviewing it feel the work is lacking in some way or is otherwise unsuitable for the conference is totally their perogative, but I do think the feedback is so important.


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## CMMB (10 May 2012)

My horse is barefoot and I am pretty much aware of the benefits this conveys along with agreeing trying the barefoot route for horses with palmar foot pain is worth considering for some cases but more evidence is needed to validate the process.

As a scientific editor I have reviewed a fair number of papers in the veterinary field and looking at the abstract published on the website my suggestion would be that there is a lack of quantitative data and the methodology of videoing may not have been exacting enough for the reviewers to consider includng it at the conference. 

The abstract methodolgy says "medio-lateral balance (were) regularly monitored with photography" however there is no quantitative data about these measurements given nor analysed to show the differences before and after. 

also " using video footage to assess foot placement (toe-first/heel-first)." what was the videong technique - were you using motion analysis equipment where quantitative measurements could be taken?

Another query may have been what is actually meant by "the same level of work or higher" can you quantify it.

I do think the reviewers should have provided information as to why it was not accepted however. Good luck and keep trying.


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## nicbarker (10 May 2012)

I don't often post here, but as C has kindly highlighted my blog post, I thought I'd better clarify.  

CMMB, the abstract had to be 300 words or less, which is why we were very limited on the level of detail we could include.  Peter Clegg reviewed the abstract and was happy with the summary - no abstract can include full details of a project, after all.  The study below also used a "return to the same level of exercise" as a performance criteria, so there is precedent for this. 

As for other studies, here is an abstract for a 2010 study into 56 horses with foot pain diagnosed on MRI who were conventionally treated (the full paper is  at http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.2042-3306.2010.00081.x/abstract): 

"Reasons for performing study: Currently, there are limited data regarding the long-term outcome of horses with foot pain treated with corrective shoeing, rest and rehabilitation, and intrasynovial anti-inflammatory medication to target lesions detected with MRI.

Objective: To report the long-term (&#8805;12 months) outcome of horses with foot lesions following medical therapy.

Hypotheses: 1) There is no association between clinical parameters considered and a poor response to therapy. 2) Horses with a deep digital flexor tendinopathy are less likely to respond to medical therapy than horses without a deep digital flexor tendinopathy.

Methods: The medical records of horses with foot pain subjected to MRI examination and medical therapy (2005&#8211;2007) were evaluated retrospectively. Data collected included history, signalment, occupation, duration and severity of lameness at the time of MRI, radiological and MRI abnormalities. Number of treatments, complications and long-term response to treatment were obtained by detailed telephone questionnaires. Association between clinical and MRI findings and long-term lameness were investigated.

Results: Frequent abnormal structures included the navicular bone, the deep digital flexor tendon, the navicular bursa and the distal interphalangeal joint. Thirty-four of 56 horses (60.7%) failed to return to previous level of exercise due to persistent or recurrent lameness or owners' decision to decrease the horse's athletic level; however, 11 horses (32.3%) were being used for light riding. Prognosis for horses with concurrent deep digital flexor tendon, navicular bone and navicular bursa lesions was worse than horses with individual lesions. Deep digital flexor tendinopathy was strongly associated with persistent or recurrent lameness.

Conclusions: Horses with multiple foot lesions managed with conservative therapy have a guarded prognosis for long-term soundness. Deep digital flexor tendinopathies negatively influence prognosis."

I'd also be interested in the link to the study showing a 50% recovery rate.  I would be surprised if any trial showed a 100% recovery - not sure that would be statistically realistic(!). However, if you were being treated for a condition, Susie, wouldn't you prefer to have something with an 85% rather than 50% success rate - and wouldn't you be a bit cross if your GP wasn't interested in finding out more about the trial with the 85% success rate? ;-)

ThePony - thanks for your kind words - if it weren't for the fab blog readers and my lovely owners and horses I would have given up long ago!


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## SusieT (10 May 2012)

yes. I have the link. I've put it up a few times already. I'll dig it out again and have emailed it already to someone.


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## SusieT (10 May 2012)

Of course I would nic, but you need the work to prove you're having long term success which I appreciate is what you're trying to do. I have to say I don't agree with what you term as a horse working fully at times, having now watched some of the videos recently posted of horses mincing along but that's me. If you can get the researc peer reviewed-all the better. It read to me not as scientific as other abstracts might be  but if you've had a professor review it, it is disappointing it didn't make it to the congress. There's more than one congress out there remember, this research basically from your point of view jus needs to see the light of day?


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## SusieT (10 May 2012)

Navicular bone disease : Results of treatment using egg-bar shoeing technique by L. C. BSTBLOM. equine veterinary journal, 1984


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## nicbarker (10 May 2012)

"I have to say I don't agree with what you term as a horse working fully at times, having now watched some of the videos recently posted of horses mincing along but that's me. "

To clarify, again, Susie, if you mean footage of horses on the Rockley Farm blog, that is footage of horses at various stages of rehab (ie they are being filmed to show whether/how much their lameness has improved).  They are none of them in full work at this stage - in fact I use my school (which has a pretty tough surface) because it is excellent at highlighting lameness.  

Its not me who assesses whether horses are back in the same level of work after 6 months, that is done by the vet or the owner.


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## Orangehorse (10 May 2012)

Maybe some of you nice and clever people could help Nick with getting this research into the appropriate place for further study.

With horses being diagnosed with foot problems from an early age, with variable outcomes, surely anything that might help or prevent in the long term should be given consideration.


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## Emz99 (10 May 2012)

I don't have any experience of publishing papers (yet!) but I'd be annoyed at why you didn't receive any feedback. Especially in such an area that I feel demands clinical scientific research to make improvements and change some peoples minds (mine included I'll admit, but i'd happily reconsider with some hard evidence in the form of multiple published reviewed studies)
It could be just the sheer number of abstracts sent to them for the congress, as someone above has said, have you tried getting it in any journals directly?
Maybe if you could quantitify the results post-rehab, e.g. improved MRI's or something along those lines, that in my eyes would get more meat behind your results and may make people sit up and listen a bit more.


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## SusieT (10 May 2012)

I think I'd be more annoyed you were given the impression by your helpers that it would be publishable and yet it wasn't-there are farreirs who tend to argueably be less scientifically minded getting studies published etc-so what was wrong with this piece is the question? As you say, vets want to push the  boundaries and explore new treatments-why not this?


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## SusieT (10 May 2012)

The problem Emz with repeat MRI is that MRI is over a thousand pounds quite often so it is difficult in that regard-saying that if someone had an mri machine and wanted to test the theory it wouldn't be so prohibitive, it's convincing those people!


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## dreams579 (10 May 2012)

I was the rehab owner who prompted Nic into submitting the abstract and gave her some guidance on preparing it given my job is a scientific writer. I was absolutely convinced that they would be interested in it and I'm now completely gobsmacked that its been rejected. I can definitely agree with some of the points raised earlier in the thread regarding lack of quantifiable results (and in an ideal world, all of those suggestions would be a brilliant thing to do); however the congress do state that they are happy to take preliminary observations and observational studies - which is exactly what this is. Having had abstracts of my own research accepted to BEVA in the past (far poorer quality in my mind and not of a clinical nature as i was studing cell cultures in a lab), and having loved attending the congress myself, other abstracts similar to Nic's have definitely been accepted in the past - so again surprising why this one hasn't been accepted. my only real thought was that it was because, although Nic had the support of Prof. Clegg and Jeremy Hide and acknowledged them in the abstract, they weren't authors. Meaning the only author came from what is effectively a commercial organisation. The peer reviewers may have therefore been worried about the possible bias in the results.

Unfortunately though, we will never know the reason that the abstract has been rejected, we can only speculate (and most congresses will not give feedback on rejected abstracts simply because of the numbers and timescale involved -this isn't BEVA being awkward or difficult in this respect). Back to the drawing board anyway, this research will get published somewhere!; and not for the benefit of Nic's business but because vets and owners deserve to know that there are other options out there with a better prognosis.


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## Natch (10 May 2012)

Its good to get this discussed, but I don't think this is a case of closed doors, just that the abstract did not meet BEVA guidelines, of which there will be more than one paragraph. There is so much research on at any one time that they will need to decline some and what better basis than a methodology which is open to criticism? 

Nic I am very much all for barefoot rehab research, and am interested in your current study. Unfortunately its not brilliantly scientifically rigorous (e.g. There is no control group, there are many uncontrolled variables, its not being compared like for like with shoeing) and I can't even really decide if it counts as clinical.

Going forward if you can get links with a research vet or a university involved in vet research they should be able to help you to design a rigorous study. I also wonder if you will have problems getting funding.. Follow the £, who will be able to make money as a result of your research? 

Best of luck with it all.


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## MerrySherryRider (10 May 2012)

dreams579 said:



			I was the rehab owner who prompted Nic into submitting the abstract and gave her some guidance on preparing it given my job is a scientific writer. I was absolutely convinced that they would be interested in it and I'm now completely gobsmacked that its been rejected. I can definitely agree with some of the points raised earlier in the thread regarding lack of quantifiable results (and in an ideal world, all of those suggestions would be a brilliant thing to do); however the congress do state that they are happy to take preliminary observations and observational studies - which is exactly what this is. Having had abstracts of my own research accepted to BEVA in the past (far poorer quality in my mind and not of a clinical nature as i was studing cell cultures in a lab), and having loved attending the congress myself, other abstracts similar to Nic's have definitely been accepted in the past - so again surprising why this one hasn't been accepted. my only real thought was that it was because, although Nic had the support of Prof. Clegg and Jeremy Hide and acknowledged them in the abstract, they weren't authors. Meaning the only author came from what is effectively a commercial organisation. The peer reviewers may have therefore been worried about the possible bias in the results.

Unfortunately though, we will never know the reason that the abstract has been rejected, we can only speculate (and most congresses will not give feedback on rejected abstracts simply because of the numbers and timescale involved -this isn't BEVA being awkward or difficult in this respect). Back to the drawing board anyway, this research will get published somewhere!; and not for the benefit of Nic's business but because vets and owners deserve to know that there are other options out there with a better prognosis.
		
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Good post. The point about the author being from a commercial organisation is a valid one, if the rehab (or similar venture) had charitable status and was a non profit organisation, it might avoid this possible conflict.


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## ester (10 May 2012)

I do think it is hard to comment without knowing all the other abstracts submitted, perhaps it is a particularly strong year. 

Nic are you still planning on attending? Regardless of the ability to actually deliver an abstract all conferences are excellent places to meet people and tell them about your research. Do they take posters? sometimes summaries of these make it into the conference proceedings so everyone gets a chance to read it. 

I found CMMB's comments really interesting, I don't know whether there are plans to try and publish the work in a journal eventually but perhaps these would be interesting points to take on board if this is the intention. (which I think would be great! )


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## SpottedCat (10 May 2012)

It can't be said in one breath that no-one will benefit commercially from it so there is no way to get funding for the research then in the other breath that the reason the abstract might have been refused was that it came from a commercial organisation! That defies all logic. 

The papers I had published in the Vet Record certainly weren't going to make anyone any money - they were to do with chicken welfare in broiler units and if anything they were going to cost the big commercial companies £££. In contrast, the clinical research my vet did into EGUS was most definitely commercially driven and funded. So I think going down either of those routes as to why it didn't make it is to go down blind alleys. 

My feeling would be as per the comment which said it just isn't rigorous enough. If you are willing to put the time in (as you clearly are), then it isn't that difficult to find a scientist willing to collaborate with you - I'm about to embark on some research with someone based at a university because I'm interested and willing to put the time in, and he wants the data. You need to do something like find a uni research group who deals with this kind of stuff/similar issues (the welfare group I did my paper with would be a starting point I guess), or offer to host someone's final year dissertation, or offer to be a PhD location (or even better fund a PhD!!) if you seriously want this to be taken seriously from a scientific viewpoint (which I think it should be BTW).


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## nicbarker (10 May 2012)

Thanks for all the encouraging replies.  For background, the research project started because a vet was interested in the rehab at Rockley.  

The study was designed not by me (my degree is in law, not veterinary medicine) but by said vet and Peter Clegg, whose full title is the Professor of Equine Orthopaedics at the University of Liverpool, so I imagine he knows what a study for palmar hoof pain should look like 

The full synopsis (which is much longer than 300 words so wasn't used as an abstract) does give details of a control group, which are horses treated conventionally by Leahurst, the Liverpool Uni vet hospital.  I don't have details of those horses from them. 

For those who say its easy to find someone to collaborate - please put me in touch with them  This project has been running since 2008 and I have spoken to several equine hospitals, multiple vets, academic institutions and the company who develop MRI scanners - no luck so far...Maybe its me, so if any of you have contacts and want to email me, I'd be grateful.  

I'm really not interested in more horses coming here - I have a waiting list already and hate turning people away, but I would like someone to run with the research and get it off my plate!


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## cptrayes (10 May 2012)

SusieT said:



			There is another study which you happily choose to ignore cptrayes which shows approximately 50% recovery. Rockey is currently at what, 85%? So good, not total cure. Does Nic have any scientific qualifications?this may be what's holding her back? I don't really know to be honest, can't see a conspiracy theory myself but would be nice if they would give feedback on why it was rejected.
		
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I don't know of it Susie, please point me to it. I do not happily ignore anything realting to horse welfare, though I would happily ignore your continuing insults to me.

No, Nic is very highly qualified in another field. She took a massive drop in pay to do what she is doing. You would have thought the fact that she is supported by Professor Clegg from Liverpool University teaching hospital ( Leahurst) would have been sufficient credentials, wouldn't you?

And the failure to explain is inexcusable.


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## SusieT (10 May 2012)

How are the conventionally treated horses doing? I hadn't realised that you were including a group like this in your research-certainly knocks it up a notch.


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## cptrayes (10 May 2012)

CMMB said:



			My horse is barefoot and I am pretty much aware of the benefits this conveys along with agreeing trying the barefoot route for horses with palmar foot pain is worth considering for some cases but more evidence is needed to validate the process.

As a scientific editor I have reviewed a fair number of papers in the veterinary field and looking at the abstract published on the website my suggestion would be that there is a lack of quantitative data and the methodology of videoing may not have been exacting enough for the reviewers to consider includng it at the conference. 

The abstract methodolgy says "medio-lateral balance (were) regularly monitored with photography" however there is no quantitative data about these measurements given nor analysed to show the differences before and after. 

also " using video footage to assess foot placement (toe-first/heel-first)." what was the videong technique - were you using motion analysis equipment where quantitative measurements could be taken?

Another query may have been what is actually meant by "the same level of work or higher" can you quantify it.

I do think the reviewers should have provided information as to why it was not accepted however. Good luck and keep trying.
		
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CMMB the request from the MEVA specifically said that non-quantitivative data and preliminary results would be acceptable.


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## cptrayes (10 May 2012)

SusieT said:



			Navicular bone disease : Results of treatment using egg-bar shoeing technique by L. C. BSTBLOM. equine veterinary journal, 1984
		
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Apologies, you did point me to this once before and I declined to read it on the basis that it has no control group. For me, at that time, it was is irrelevent to read an article which does not compare egg bar shoes with barefoot rehabs, just as you consider it irrelevant that there are so many barefoot rehab successes when we cannot point to properly conducted studies with control groups. Had you pointed out to me at _any_ previous time when I have quoted lower success rates that the success rate in that study is 50% then I would have quoted it as well as the two others of which I know. 

In spite of what you and some others on this forum may think of me* I WOULD NOT DELIBERATELY OR KNOWINGLY MISLEAD ANYONE.*

Can you please email me a copy of the study as I cannot find any way to get access to it. I will be very interested to read the definition of success. I will PM you with my email address.

Thankyou in advance.


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## cptrayes (10 May 2012)

SusieT said:



			Navicular bone disease : Results of treatment using egg-bar shoeing technique by L. C. BSTBLOM. equine veterinary journal, 1984
		
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OK, I have found the synopsis, please do not bother sending me the full thing.


My response is as follows:

The study was published in 1984.  In 1984 it was believed that caudal hoof lameness was caused by damage to the navicular bone visible on radiographs. That is now known to be untrue in the vast majority of horses which undergo MRI.  

The true diagnosis of the  horses in the study cannot, therefore,  be known.

The fact is that most of those horses, if they blocked sound to the back of the foot, will have had either a collateral ligament injury, a ddft injury, or both, but no-one has assessed the severity of those injuries. It is quite possible, for example, that many of them were very minor and were resolved by properly balancing  the foot to the xrays.

In the studies where MRIs have established collateral ligament and/or ddft damage the recovery rates are no more than half this study for one and 40% for the other.

The study also has no unshod control group, so we do not know whether barefoot rehabs would have produced a better result.

It is my conclusion, therefore, that with advances in veterinary medicine over the nearly 30 years since it was carried out, this study is no longer worth the paper that it is written on. I would not have quoted it had I known about it and I will not be quoting it in future.


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## JFTDWS (10 May 2012)

cptrayes said:



			You would have thought the fact that she is supported by Professor Clegg from Liverpool University teaching hospital ( Leahurst) would have been sufficient credentials, wouldn't you?
		
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Actually, no.  I've known many professors with odd beliefs which are not supported by the science that they research.  A recmmmendation is not a substitute for qualifications, alas.

FWIW, I don't believe it is a conspiracy   I imagine that the abstract / results did not comply with the guidelines, or that it was simply out-competed by better research in a strong field of abstracts submitted.  If the research is sound, I'm sure the authors will be able to find an alternative means of publication / presentation.


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## SusieT (10 May 2012)

again-synopsis reading, I have sent you the full thing as it addresses many of the issues you raise. 'not being worth the paper its written on' is rather strong-it adds to clinical evidence. If you read the study you will see that much of the material is actually s imilar with regards to rebalancing feet as barefoot is trying to do..  Nic is treating horses with caudal hoof pain of varying diagnosis unless I'm incorrect-so similar. It also doesn't consider navicular disease irreverisble-same as nowadays. OR is that not worth reading either?


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## SusieT (10 May 2012)

'just as you consider it irrelevant that there are so many barefoot rehab successes when we cannot point to properly conducted studies with control groups' I've never said that.. that's what you have said. I have said I want scientific evidence not anecdote-anecdotally the oldest person in the world is 122 in japan. Realistically-they were found dead and had been for several years!


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## nicbarker (10 May 2012)

Susie, I would also be interested in a copy, if you wouldn't mind emailing it to me - I've only found the abstract not the full criteria. 

Also for info, the majority of the horses in my abstract had been previously treated (unsuccessfully) with a variety of conventional remedies: 18 had remedial farriery (inc bar shoes, wedges, pads, imprints etc), 11 had had box rest, 3 had had Tildren or Navilox, 5 had had IRAP or cortisone injections.  This was included as a table added to the abstract. 

FWIW, I don't for a minute imagine there is an anti-barefoot conspiracy at BEVA but before I spend any more time, effort and money collecting data, I could do with knowing what it is that makes the research unacceptable!


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## JFTDWS (10 May 2012)

nicbarker said:



			FWIW, I don't for a minute imagine there is an anti-barefoot conspiracy at BEVA but before I spend any more time, effort and money collecting data, I could do with knowing what it is that makes the research unacceptable!
		
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Have you approached academics at one of the vet colleges and asked for their input about the quality of data etc?  I don't know what your professional associations are, but I would be inclined to buddy up with an academic institution and co-author under their guidance.


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## imr (10 May 2012)

my sister is a vet and she has presented at BEVA. BEVA have not rejected the research, just decided that this year's BEVA presentations will be on something else. This could reflect lots of things, from what was presented last year, to what else has been submitted, to the fact that it was only preliminary research, number of horses in the study etc. honestly, lots of perfectly reasonable topics get rejected. i think it is unreasonable in the extreme to infer from this that BEVA as a body has decided it is completely anti barefoot or does not encourage research in the area.


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## amandap (10 May 2012)

I feel we are still insisting on putting human thinking before what horses are 'saying' (by their response to different rehabs methods) in waiting for supposed acceptable science to prove the value of horses opinions. 

I am in total agreement with this quote on your blog Nic.
_
"If you want to think about what progress really means, then you need to imagine what it was like to have become so accustomed to the screams of patients that they seemed perfectly natural and normal...you must first understand what stands in the way of progress."_

So much of 'traditional' is so normal no one actually sees it clearly or questions it. That is the truly sad and often devastating thing in all this for horses.


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## Clava (10 May 2012)

imr said:



			..from this that BEVA as a body.... does not encourage research in the area.
		
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Is there other research into barefoot that they are encouraging? Does anyone know of any?


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## cptrayes (10 May 2012)

SusieT said:



			again-synopsis reading, I have sent you the full thing as it addresses many of the issues you raise. 'not being worth the paper its written on' is rather strong-it adds to clinical evidence. If you read the study you will see that much of the material is actually s imilar with regards to rebalancing feet as barefoot is trying to do..  Nic is treating horses with caudal hoof pain of varying diagnosis unless I'm incorrect-so similar. It also doesn't consider navicular disease irreverisble-same as nowadays. OR is that not worth reading either?
		
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I have skimmed the whole thing. Thankyou for sending it to me. 

To my astonishment I found that you are paying serious credence to a study where of the  82  horses who were selected,    27 were shot without being included in the study as too difficult to help. Of the rest, 55, these included 

" _early cases of navicular disease where lameness was not obvious_"


Not only that, but the results are not quantified by the severity of the lameness first presented!

_* The whole 29 successes could have been the ones who were not presenting as obviously lame. 
*_ 

We do not know.


Honestly Susie, on what grounds do you EVER dare to challenge me and our anecdotal evidence when you rely on studies like that?




....


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## ThePony (10 May 2012)

imr said:



			my sister is a vet and she has presented at BEVA. BEVA have not rejected the research, just decided that this year's BEVA presentations will be on something else. This could reflect lots of things, from what was presented last year, to what else has been submitted, to the fact that it was only preliminary research, number of horses in the study etc. honestly, lots of perfectly reasonable topics get rejected. i think it is unreasonable in the extreme to infer from this that BEVA as a body has decided it is completely anti barefoot or does not encourage research in the area.
		
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Ah, I didn't realise the conference would run on a particular subject area, I imagined (a dangerous thing!) that it would be a run of current research ongoing.

SusieT, would you mind sending me the study too, have found an abstract but it doesn't give an awful lot of info away lol!


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## SusieT (10 May 2012)

the pony-please send me your email and I'll forward it on.


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## Natch (10 May 2012)

Nic, I concur with JFTD. You mention Peter Clegg, but the panel who will have reviewed your paper will be more than one person. I would either approach the selection panel again for feedback, or if you have done it several times already see if there is another way to access those people who read your abstract. As someone stated before, the easiest way for you to go forward is perhaps to fund a Phd.

Cptrays you are coming across oddly today  hooves are particularly difficult to measure scientifically, and in reviewing available literature in any field it may be hard to find a study done exactly the way you want it doing. Doesn't mean you should necessarily dismiss it all together. 

May I also be really boring and point out the full articles are usually available if you pay for them. I have distributed things I have access to, to others on this forum before, but for goodness sake be careful about doing so, it is against copyright law.


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## SusieT (10 May 2012)

mm true, it doesn't make any difference to copyright law if I have paid for it does it?


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## ThePony (10 May 2012)

SusieT said:



			the pony-please send me your email and I'll forward it on.
		
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thank you, much appreciated.


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## dreams579 (10 May 2012)

ThePony said:



			Ah, I didn't realise the conference would run on a particular subject area, I imagined (a dangerous thing!) that it would be a run of current research ongoing.

SusieT, would you mind sending me the study too, have found an abstract but it doesn't give an awful lot of info away lol!
		
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it does have specific themes each year, but there is always a large section of the clinical research section that is dedicated to lameness


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## Natch (10 May 2012)

SusieT it means you are allowed access to it but should not distribute it.

As I say, I'm a fine one to talk  but do be aware, especially if openly saying on a public domain that you are doing so.

... Annoyingly I have just tried to access it via my subscription but can't  probably some type of karma! 

I am adding making a review of the literature to my "to do before my subscription runs out" list. Sad or what!


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## GreedyGuts (10 May 2012)

I wouldn't take the rejection personally, or as a reflection of BEVA's opinion on barefoot rehab. A huge amount of abstracts get submitted every year and there are a limited number of slots available, so unfortunately, even for very valid research, it is a bit of a lottery. i know of a several preliminary studies rejected for no apparent reason by BEVA that have gone on to be easily accepted for publication by major journals. 

Equally, they are intended as short communication sessions and they receive stacks of abstracts, so i don't consider it unreasonable that they are unable to give feedback, it's just the way it is with this type of submission unfortunately.


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## Pale Rider (10 May 2012)

GreedyGuts said:



			I wouldn't take the rejection personally, or as a reflection of BEVA's opinion on barefoot rehab. A huge amount of abstracts get submitted every year and there are a limited number of slots available, so unfortunately, even for very valid research, it is a bit of a lottery. i know of a several preliminary studies rejected for no apparent reason by BEVA that have gone on to be easily accepted for publication by major journals. 

Equally, they are intended as short communication sessions and they receive stacks of abstracts, so i don't consider it unreasonable that they are unable to give feedback, it's just the way it is with this type of submission unfortunately.
		
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^ Agree ^

I honestly don't think that this 'rejection' if that is how it is perceived, is really a rejection of the work done by Nic and Co. to date. There is a phlegmatic, attitude to barefoot rehabilitation by the veterinary profession as a whole, as it just doesn't fit with the current model of diagnosis and treatment.

I follow the blogs with interest and am always overjoyed by the evidence of spectacular results, which although described as anecdotal in the strickest sense, is far from that to the owners involved.

Attempting to generate interest in 'formal' scientific research in the field of Barefoot Rehabilitation, will I fear be an uphill struggle. The simple fact, is that there is no real benefit for those who usually sponser this sort of research, there is no profitable wonder drug or similar at the end of it.

Barefoot Rehabilitation will I feel, remain at the grass roots level for some considerable time yet. Owners frustrated with the failure of coventional treatments, unwilling to call it a day will still turn to this treatment. It will be pressure from the bottom up that will eventually cause serious research into this as it will become impossible to ignore or debase the obvious positive outcomes.


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## Goldenstar (10 May 2012)

Pale Rider said:



			^ Agree ^

I honestly don't think that this 'rejection' if that is how it is perceived, is really a rejection of the work done by Nic and Co. to date. There is a phlegmatic, attitude to barefoot rehabilitation by the veterinary profession as a whole, as it just doesn't fit with the current model of diagnosis and treatment.

I follow the blogs with interest and am always overjoyed by the evidence of spectacular results, which although described as anecdotal in the strickest sense, is far from that to the owners involved.

Attempting to generate interest in 'formal' scientific research in the field of Barefoot Rehabilitation, will I fear be an uphill struggle. The simple fact, is that there is no real benefit for those who usually sponser this sort of research, there is no profitable wonder drug or similar at the end of it.

Barefoot Rehabilitation will I feel, remain at the grass roots level for some considerable time yet. Owners frustrated with the failure of coventional treatments, unwilling to call it a day will still turn to this treatment. It will be pressure from the bottom up that will eventually cause serious research into this as it will become impossible to ignore or debase the obvious positive outcomes.
		
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I really aggree with this it will be a movement from the bottom up as more owners manage their horse this way vets will gradually change.
The power of the Internet search means the route to alternative treatments is much easier for individuals to find the vet is no longer a gate keeper to knowledge in the way they where.
Vets are trained for a long time to think how they do it will take time to change views.


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## tallyho! (10 May 2012)

Silly question alert: how come AANHCP/UKNHCP/UKAEP/AAEP not offered a helping hand? Really sorry if I have missed something and they have and therefore I am forever humbled.


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## Goldenstar (10 May 2012)

Too busy trying to aggree what they all agree on perhaps ?


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## Tiffany (10 May 2012)

Pale rider - I'm not sure this statement is true 'There is a phlegmatic, attitude to barefoot rehabilitation by the veterinary profession as a whole, as it just doesn't fit with the current model of diagnosis and treatment'  None of the vets at the practice I use are against BF although as with any treatment they believe it depends on the prognosis.

I've investigated BF more since seeing info on here from CPTrayes, Oberon and others although rightly or wrongly and I'm not looking for an argument, it sometimes comes across that BF fans believe BF is the answer for everything and I don't think there's sufficient evidence to support that. 

People talk about the horses that come sound but there are also horses who don't respond so well. Same as with a horse with shoes.

Having said that, I for one would like to see money being made available for more BF research.


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## Bikerchickone (10 May 2012)

I have to say I'm really sorry to hear that the paper Nic and dreams579 put together didn't get any further. My horse is one of the many Nic has taken in and worked with to gain positive results. 

Realistically Nic can only rehab so many horses at a time so it's frustrating that what is seen as too few results to obtain successful funding and support has taken so many years for Nic and her team to do. 

Ultimately I believe this to be a short term setback. The positive results given by Nic's rehab methods are becoming known at there and I'm sure that more and more people will turn to barefoot as a solution for problems like navicular, collateral ligament damage and others. 

I, for one, am happy to say that my horse is much improved thanks to Nic and I will continue to spread the word so that others can benefit from her work.


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## Goldenstar (10 May 2012)

BF is not an answer to everything it's a management system for horses in work that allows them with varying degrees of difficultly and imput and effort from owner to work without shoes.
Taking off shoes and providing movement to help with foot pain is an old idea I met old horse people when I was a teenager who talked about this.
When it's used for horses with pain in the heels I am not sure I would be brave enough without support but I am thrilled for those that do and also for those who are lucky enough to get their horse to Rockley.


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## glenruby (10 May 2012)

Rocket is at 85% of SELECTED cases. I would suggest that the paper may not stand up to scientific scrutiny. Not every research paper is worth the paper it is written on. I haven't read the paper in question. Secondly you say about horses treated by vets often having restrictions. It is unite clear from every post about "barefoot" that most of those horses require keep on bare pasture/ stabling and extremely careful duet restrictions to control the sensitivity of their feet- these are far more restricting to the average horse owner than those you mention we're recommended in SoME of the vet cases. 

Please note I have nothing against unshod horses ( mine all currently are) but do not like the " barefoot mafia".


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## LucyPriory (10 May 2012)

glenruby said:



			Rocket is at 85% of SELECTED cases. I would suggest that the paper may not stand up to scientific scrutiny. Not every research paper is worth the paper it is written on. I haven't read the paper in question. Secondly you say about horses treated by vets often having restrictions. It is unite clear from every post about "barefoot" that most of those horses require keep on bare pasture/ stabling and extremely careful duet restrictions to control the sensitivity of their feet- these are far more restricting to the average horse owner than those you mention we're recommended in SoME of the vet cases. 

Please note I have nothing against unshod horses ( mine all currently are) but do not like the " barefoot mafia".
		
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I completely agree, not every research paper is worth the material it is written on.  Equally true is that posts on this forum do not constitute a representative sample of the horse universe, let alone the unshod/barefoot universe.

Most of the unshod horses I meet are kept conventionally, although they may have a lower sugar/starch 'bucket' feed than many, they still turn out and come in pretty much as average.  

The ones that don't were typically not sound in shoes, usually because of some degree of laminitis and dietary changes may be implemented to help with this.  I am sure we would all expect any horse with laminitis, whether shod or otherwise to be given the help/dietary changes it needs to recover.


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## tallyho! (10 May 2012)

glenruby said:



			Rocket is at 85% of SELECTED cases. I would suggest that the paper may not stand up to scientific scrutiny. Not every research paper is worth the paper it is written on. I haven't read the paper in question. Secondly you say about horses treated by vets often having restrictions. It is unite clear from every post about "barefoot" that most of those horses require keep on bare pasture/ stabling and extremely careful duet restrictions to control the sensitivity of their feet- these are far more restricting to the average horse owner than those you mention we're recommended in SoME of the vet cases. 

Please note I have nothing against unshod horses ( mine all currently are) but do not like the " barefoot mafia".
		
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Is it? Is it really all to do with barefoot that management is "changed"? Not about the underlying metabolic issues??


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## Pale Rider (10 May 2012)

Tiffany said:



			Pale rider - I'm not sure this statement is true 'There is a phlegmatic, attitude to barefoot rehabilitation by the veterinary profession as a whole, as it just doesn't fit with the current model of diagnosis and treatment'  None of the vets at the practice I use are against BF although as with any treatment they believe it depends on the prognosis.

I've investigated BF more since seeing info on here from CPTrayes, Oberon and others although rightly or wrongly and I'm not looking for an argument, it sometimes comes across that BF fans believe BF is the answer for everything and I don't think there's sufficient evidence to support that. 

People talk about the horses that come sound but there are also horses who don't respond so well. Same as with a horse with shoes.

Having said that, I for one would like to see money being made available for more BF research.
		
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Well, it may or may not be true what I have said, it's just my opinion, lol.

Having said that, it is based on the reaction of numerous vets, from numerous areas, fairly anecdotal maybe, but probably supported by most people who mention barefoot rehabilitation to many vets.

My interest in BF rehabilitation came when one of our horses developed laminitis. The first vet on the scene wanted him shod remedial shoes, massive doses of bute, box rest all the usual. We made it clear, politely, that this was not the treatment we wanted to follow. Exit vet.

After quite a few phone calls we found a vet who stated that he'd help, but we were on our own when things went wrong and he would take no responsibility for anything that happened. (fair enough, I thought).

Cut a long story short, we only used the vet for x rays to assess the damage initially, and to see how things had changed 6 months later. (Obviously he recovered).

We did everything almost opposite to conventional wisdom, our horse made a rapid recovery and the severe rotation in the pedal bones was reversed. We now frequently get phone calls from this vet asking us to talk people through a barefoot recovery, and quite a few horses have benefitted.

Apart from a few doses of bute, used very sparingly, the x rays was the only chargeable item on our vets bill. Not much incentive for things to change for the majority of vets.

The worse thing is that people get in touch with us when things are as bad as they can be and conventional treatment, such as it is, is heading only one way.

I am a BF fan, because of the results that I have seen myself. I am not nieve enough to think it is a cure for every lamanitic, lame or navicular horse on the planet, but I am a pragmatic person. I am not really interested in the research for research sake, but, it seems to me most of these problems our horses suffer from are brought on by our treatment of them, shoeing and feeding mostly. I want to see them cured, and BF works more often than not, that will do for me.


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## MotherOfChickens (10 May 2012)

for BEVA do they allocate whether you get a talk or a poster, or can you opt for one or other (though appreciate its probably too late now for this year). A poster may be easier to get through and a good opportunity to mix with vets. 

agree with whoever said that many abstracts will have been rejected, science is competitive. also, there are many many conditions in horses that have no research money or nowhere near enough already. for those owners who want to make a difference, support those charities that support equine research and state what you'd like to see funded to them. if you see a case for barefoot rehab warranting research funding then make yourselves heard!


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## Holly Hocks (10 May 2012)

Pale Rider said:



			Well, it may or may not be true what I have said, it's just my opinion, lol.

Having said that, it is based on the reaction of numerous vets, from numerous areas, fairly anecdotal maybe, but probably supported by most people who mention barefoot rehabilitation to many vets.

My interest in BF rehabilitation came when one of our horses developed laminitis. The first vet on the scene wanted him shod remedial shoes, massive doses of bute, box rest all the usual. We made it clear, politely, that this was not the treatment we wanted to follow. Exit vet.

After quite a few phone calls we found a vet who stated that he'd help, but we were on our own when things went wrong and he would take no responsibility for anything that happened. (fair enough, I thought).

Cut a long story short, we only used the vet for x rays to assess the damage initially, and to see how things had changed 6 months later. (Obviously he recovered).

We did everything almost opposite to conventional wisdom, our horse made a rapid recovery and the severe rotation in the pedal bones was reversed. We now frequently get phone calls from this vet asking us to talk people through a barefoot recovery, and quite a few horses have benefitted.

Apart from a few doses of bute, used very sparingly, the x rays was the only chargeable item on our vets bill. Not much incentive for things to change for the majority of vets.

The worse thing is that people get in touch with us when things are as bad as they can be and conventional treatment, such as it is, is heading only one way.

I am a BF fan, because of the results that I have seen myself. I am not nieve enough to think it is a cure for every lamanitic, lame or navicular horse on the planet, but I am a pragmatic person. I am not really interested in the research for research sake, but, it seems to me most of these problems our horses suffer from are brought on by our treatment of them, shoeing and feeding mostly. I want to see them cured, and BF works more often than not, that will do for me.
		
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Excellent post!


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## dreams579 (10 May 2012)

peteralfred said:



			for BEVA do they allocate whether you get a talk or a poster, or can you opt for one or other (though appreciate its probably too late now for this year). A poster may be easier to get through and a good opportunity to mix with vets. 

agree with whoever said that many abstracts will have been rejected, science is competitive. also, there are many many conditions in horses that have no research money or nowhere near enough already. for those owners who want to make a difference, support those charities that support equine research and state what you'd like to see funded to them. if you see a case for barefoot rehab warranting research funding then make yourselves heard!
		
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BEVA only offer presentations; there isn't a poster session there, as yes, I'd definitely agree a poster session would be easier to get normally.


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## cptrayes (10 May 2012)

Tiffany said:



			People talk about the horses that come sound but there are also horses who don't respond so well. Same as with a horse with shoes.
.
		
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I know that I am picking on grammar here, and I apologise for doing it, but it matters. 

Tiffany it is not the same as a horse with shoes, sorry. Most of the horses which have recovered with a barefoot rehab have _already failed to recover in shoes_. Admittedly anecdotally, the number which recover in shoes is far lower as a percentage than the number that recover without them. In addition, the recovery in shoes has some tendency to be temporary and the disease often  progresses  to make the horse lame again later, (or at least restrict work on hard ground/jumping etc)  whereas the same does not, at the moment, appear to be true of a barefoot rehab for which we now have a few repeat xrays and MRIs that suggest it is a genuine cure.


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## Delta99 (10 May 2012)

nicbarker said:



			The study was designed not by me (my degree is in law, not veterinary medicine) but by said vet and Peter Clegg, whose full title is the Professor of Equine Orthopaedics at the University of Liverpool, so I imagine he knows what a study for palmar hoof pain should look like 

The full synopsis (which is much longer than 300 words so wasn't used as an abstract) does give details of a control group, which are horses treated conventionally by Leahurst, the Liverpool Uni vet hospital.  I don't have details of those horses from them.
		
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I'm still very puzzled by this. I took my horse to Leahurst for the MRI, after having learned about Rockley and making the assumption that Leahurst support barefoot as a treatment option.
Yet their attitude was the complete opposite, under no circumstances was barefoot to be considered - instead, egg bars and box rest were recommended.
I got the impression that the vet's attitude was that I might as well shoot the horse there and then if I was planning to continue with barefoot.



Susie T, I agree with you with regards to soundness, certainly the last 2 videos on Rockley's blog labelled as sound are not sound by my definition either, I do hope that the majority of horses coming out of Rockley look a lot sounder.

I am also somewhat curious why so many horses end up going back to Rockley again, after they have been back with their owner and gone lame again? 

Don't get me wrong, I think Rockley are doing a great job where the owners can't manage but it's not as straight forward as people are led to believe on this forum, and as SusieT said, there are different definitions of 'back in full work'. I have heard of plenty of horses sound for hacking and low level RC activity coming out of Rockley but has there ever been an Adv eventer , sj or dressage horse that has returned to that level of work after rehab?


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## Orangehorse (10 May 2012)

Leahurst is providing the Control group, so they are not advocating barefoot treatment.

I know an endurance horse that was going to be PTS after a year's conventional treatment and £5,000 vets bills that was treated by going barefoot.  Horse returned to full work and is doing endurance once again, now in hoof boots.  There are also plenty of horses that returned to hunting after being retired lame.

Trouble is, often these conditions come on over  years, so the horse is maybe middle aged by the time the lameness shows up.  Taking out the time to undertake all treatments and months and years go by, so maybe the owner has lost interest in competition by the time the horse is sound again.  Many people are very happy to have a live horse able to get out and do something rather than a dead one.


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## cptrayes (10 May 2012)

Delta99 said:



			I am also somewhat curious why so many horses end up going back to Rockley again, after they have been back with their owner and gone lame again?
		
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"So many"?

One went back on hunter livery because the owner was going away for a prolonged spell. 

One failed to get sufficient stimulus to the back of the foot and went back to be put back on track after a trim made him lame again.

One is, I think, possibly back there now because the owner, in the absence of a marvellous track system and with an only partly complete rehab in her hands, could not continue his progress.

Horses are typically taken home when they are only partly recovered and it is in the hands of the owners to continue the good work. It is little surprise that some people cannot manage that and a very small number (two?) have returned due to continuing foot issues. One, I think, is still there, the other returned home a long time ago and continues to progess.


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## cptrayes (10 May 2012)

Delta99 said:



			has there ever been an Adv eventer , sj or dressage horse that has returned to that level of work after rehab?
		
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As far  as I am aware there has been no horse of this level which has yet gone into rehab, never mind come out of it.


By the way I do agree with you that on the last video of a chestnut horse back at home on a woodchip arena, I would not have been satisified with the way the horse was moving. But everything is relative, and if this horse had been facing a bullet, I'd have been ecstatic at that level of improvement.


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## Bikerchickone (10 May 2012)

I'm afraid I can't quote as I'm on my phone but Delta99 you mention videos of horses who aren't sound labelled as if they were on the blog, would you care to say which ones? I've just been back and looked at the most recent videos and have seen ones with comments that they're in the early stages of rehab and so still have issues, but none purporting to be sound when they aren't. Which ones do you mean please? 

I have to say I also find it interesting that you're commenting in a negative way about Rockley when, despite the vets clearly advising you otherwise, you apparently had every intention of sending your horse there at one point. 

It's a shame that someone can work long and hard to try to help others and still get pulled apart on here for their efforts. 

I can only go with what I've seen for myself and that is the improvement of my own horse and others on my visits to Rockley.


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## Pale Rider (10 May 2012)

Delta99 said:



			I'm still very puzzled by this. I took my horse to Leahurst for the MRI, after having learned about Rockley and making the assumption that Leahurst support barefoot as a treatment option.
Yet their attitude was the complete opposite, under no circumstances was barefoot to be considered - instead, egg bars and box rest were recommended.
I got the impression that the vet's attitude was that I might as well shoot the horse there and then if I was planning to continue with barefoot.



Susie T, I agree with you with regards to soundness, certainly the last 2 videos on Rockley's blog labelled as sound are not sound by my definition either, I do hope that the majority of horses coming out of Rockley look a lot sounder.

I am also somewhat curious why so many horses end up going back to Rockley again, after they have been back with their owner and gone lame again? 

Don't get me wrong, I think Rockley are doing a great job where the owners can't manage but it's not as straight forward as people are led to believe on this forum, and as SusieT said, there are different definitions of 'back in full work'. I have heard of plenty of horses sound for hacking and low level RC activity coming out of Rockley but has there ever been an Adv eventer , sj or dressage horse that has returned to that level of work after rehab?
		
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Not a very suprising attitude from Leahurst in my experience.

I don't think its a mystery why an odd horse may return to Rockley on occasion. Keeping horses sound barefoot is a bit like keeping half a dozen plates spinning, there are so many factors involved, which change and interact in different ways. A few plates are bound to fall.


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## cptrayes (10 May 2012)

Delta99 said:



			I'm still very puzzled by this. I took my horse to Leahurst for the MRI, after having learned about Rockley and making the assumption that Leahurst support barefoot as a treatment option.
Yet their attitude was the complete opposite, under no circumstances was barefoot to be considered - instead, egg bars and box rest were recommended.
I got the impression that the vet's attitude was that I might as well shoot the horse there and then if I was planning to continue with barefoot.
		
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Can we know what you chose to do? And if it worked/is working?

There are many vets at Leahurst and you are right, some of them are completely ignorant of barefoot rehabs.  My friend was given an extremely poor prognosis for her horse last year and it was sound after about 6 weeks at Rockley. I was going to take it on myself but the insurers would not have paid out if it had not worked, so I couldn't


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## Tiffany (10 May 2012)

cptrayes said:



			I know that I am picking on grammar here, and I apologise for doing it, but it matters. 

Tiffany it is not the same as a horse with shoes, sorry. Most of the horses which have recovered with a barefoot rehab have _already failed to recover in shoes_. Admittedly anecdotally, the number which recover in shoes is far lower as a percentage than the number that recover without them. In addition, the recovery in shoes has some tendency to be temporary and the disease often  progresses  to make the horse lame again later, (or at least restrict work on hard ground/jumping etc)  whereas the same does not, at the moment, appear to be true of a barefoot rehab for which we now have a few repeat xrays and MRIs that suggest it is a genuine cure.
		
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If they have failed to recover with shoes that suggests BF is a last resort rather than something people believe in.  I agree some shod horses with a foot condition can't work on hard ground etc although, the same applies to BF horses. We have 3 BF horses on our yard that require boots to hack out. 

The workmanship of farriers/trimmers varies considerably and I believe a bad one can do more harm than good with long term consequences that can be detrimental to the horse.


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## cptrayes (10 May 2012)

Tiffany said:



			If they have failed to recover with shoes that suggests BF is a last resort rather than something people believe in.
		
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It don't think it matters why they do it as long as it helps the horse. I went barefoot fully expecting it to fail 7 years ago 



Tiffany said:



			I agree some shod horses with a foot condition can't work on hard ground etc although, the same applies to BF horses. We have 3 BF horses on our yard that require boots to hack out.
		
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It is my experience that most horses requiring boots to hack out after a suitable transition period would require their diet to be adjusted and/or more work so as not to need the boots. On the other hand, most conventional foot lameness rehabs who can't manage some ground conditions can't manage it because they are still suffering from the condition they were treated for.  I don't actually think that the two are comparable.

There is also nothing to stop a barefoot rehab, once completely resolved, from being shod again. In many cases, preferably by a better farrier than the one it was being shod by before it went lame


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## Delta99 (10 May 2012)

cptrayes said:



			As far  as I am aware there has been no horse of this level which has yet gone into rehab, never mind come out of it.


By the way I do agree with you that on the last video of a chestnut horse back at home on a woodchip arena, I would not have been satisified with the way the horse was moving. But everything is relative, and if this horse had been facing a bullet, I'd have been ecstatic at that level of improvement.
		
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agree totally that any improvement is good but the two horses I'm referring to are not sound. One is on a rubber surface and the other one is chestnut, the blog mentioned 'big paces' (?)

Also, these days a lot of horses compete at advanced levels by the time they're 6 - 8 yrs, so not old by any means. Yes, I agree that the fact that they are pushed so quickly could be why they are lame but until we see horses returning to that level of work (as some do with shoes), the study cannot be complete.




			Can we know what you chose to do? And if it worked/is working?
		
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The horse is still barefoot and almost sound now (only slightly lame on a circle to the right and I'm sure 9 out 10 people wouldn't notice this).




			I have to say I also find it interesting that you're commenting in a negative way about Rockley when, despite the vets clearly advising you otherwise, you apparently had every intention of sending your horse there at one point.
		
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Leahurst advised against barefoot, Rockley was never mentioned.
I am not negative about Rockley but I would not send my horse there either. 
I have learned a lot by looking at what Rockley do and have copied some things, eg pea gravel but don't agree with other things, eg putting a rider on a lame horse.

As for horses going back to Rockley, there were a few mentioned on the Phoenixhorse forum recently, plus my trimmer (UKNHCP) has mentioned a few - enough to make me question the validity of the rehab but agree, that statement I made is based on hearsay.


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## tallyho! (11 May 2012)

Isn't the point of the study to rehab horses diagnosed with palmar hoof pain (however it is diagnosed as)? It is without doubt a success. In any study there are failures, relapses, got better but not quite... that is statistics. That is the nature of trials.

Why are we focusing on that?

Why are we now talking about random cases and advanced horses etc? If an adv. horse goes persistently lame, I am afraid it is the bullet.

Have we all forgotten that horses were never meant to be ridden. To have shoes. To live in boxes and squares all their lives. Most cope very well indeed thankfully. Some have problems. The ones who have problems rely on us to either end their suffering or try and help.

Egg-bar, heartbar, wedges, boots, glue-ons, barefoot are all a host of tools we can CHOOSE from surely.... all in the name of getting a better HOOF for the horse to get around on at our beck and call. We choose saddles, bits, bridles... why not footwear?

We rely too much on hard facts, when the answers are right there in front of our noses. We only have to open our eyes to see it. Is this the price of progress?


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## amandap (11 May 2012)

bikerchickone said:



			I'm afraid I can't quote as I'm on my phone but Delta99 you mention videos of horses who aren't sound labelled as if they were on the blog, would you care to say which ones? I've just been back and looked at the most recent videos and have seen ones with comments that they're in the early stages of rehab and so still have issues, but none purporting to be sound when they aren't. Which ones do you mean please?
		
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I have to ditto this. Time at Rockley in my understanding is the beginning of the rehab period... 

All I can say is those of you who wish to follow the advice of expert hospitals and vets, do so. Don't forget to question these experts as well on their thinking.
Many horses go to Rockley as the last chance with guns to their heads when shoeing and vet experts have nothing left to offer. Don't forget this point. Vets could offer rehab to build strong hoof structures by comfortable, controlled exercize of the hooves but how many do?  

Some owners are choosing to send their horses there much earlier and I have to say that imo a non invasive rehab, that actually makes sense to me, would be my choice.


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## Natch (11 May 2012)

tallyho! said:



			Silly question alert: how come AANHCP/UKNHCP/UKAEP/AAEP not offered a helping hand? Really sorry if I have missed something and they have and therefore I am forever humbled.
		
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I *think* AANHCP have written and published quite a papers.

Isn't Rockley a part of UKNHCP? I get confused over who is who


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## Oberon (11 May 2012)

Naturally said:



			Isn't Rockley a part of UKNHCP? I get confused over who is who 

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Nic Barker was one of the founders of the UKNHCP but has since resigned from the organisation (I believe).


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## dressagelove (11 May 2012)

Oberon said:



			Nic Barker was one of the founders of the UKNHCP but has since resigned from the organisation (I believe).
		
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How interesting, I wonder why?


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## Oberon (11 May 2012)

Probably has too much on with Rockley to devote enough time to the organisation and take on students etc.


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## tallyho! (11 May 2012)

Naturally said:



			I get confused over who is who 

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I really wish Nic the very very best and infact, if there were a fund set up, happily donate towards a fab study. I believe that nature has a place in hoofcare forever.

What you say Naturally is part of the problem with "barefoot" in the UK. There does not seem to be any unity. At least in farriery, there is. Barefoot will never gain credibility as long as the two independent bodies remain divided over what is what. They MUST come together. Hoofcare is hoofcare is hoofcare. Call it what you want but the end goal is exactly the same for all three factions.


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## Bikerchickone (11 May 2012)

I'm sorry Delta99 but you quite specifically messaged me about Rockley back in the early days of my boy being lame to talk about how you had booked your horse in but had doubts because Nic hadn't rehabed any competition horse, and you then changed your mind on the day because the winds were too strong for travel by trailer. 

I wouldn't ordinarily quote someone on a pm, but I can't help feeling that your posts against Rockley are quite harsh, and I'm curious about why, especially since you're using a similar method to rehab your own horse currently. 

Personally, at this point in time I feel very strongly that Nic has a positive effect on the life of every horse who passes through her hands, and I don't understand why you seem almost pleased that you can point out blog horses aren't completely sound. These are horses still in rehab and still well within the year it takes them to grow a whole new hoof capsule, and if by the chestnut you mean Bryan, he's only recently gone home and still has a way to go, as do they all upon leaving Rockley. Perhaps the comments about bigger strides were referring to his strides prior to rehab as a comparison.


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## Bikerchickone (11 May 2012)

Sorry also have to say, where did you get the idea that Rockley puts riders on lame horses? This is not the case. Rehab horses are not asked to work at all until they are comfortable on conforming surfaces, and even then when they are comfortable they're led from another horse until they are sound for a rider to get on. 

I have heard Nic say many times that there is no advantage in working an uncomfortable horse, and on my many visits to Rockley I've never seen a lame horse ridden.


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## Hollycatt (11 May 2012)

The UK is not the be and end all. There are plenty of conferences throught Europe - many in English and also the US. Try those instead!


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## SO1 (11 May 2012)

I work for an organisation that runs large medical conferences. They want to attract people to come and often what attracts people are people who are famous within the industry for example Lord Winston is always very popular. The conferences are run as profit making or at very least break even as Nic is not a big name in vet science it is going to be harder to get a look in.

Additionally the hoof is not an area many vets specialise in a lot of them leave this to farriers. If you look at previous BEVA conferences and most medical conferences they split topics into groups such as the stifle, respiratory etc and have several presentations on the same subject lead by a chair. If Nic's paper is the only one they have on the hoof then they won't be able to have a group of presentations on the same topic and it won't be practical to run it even if the reasearch is interesting and scientific. Also if she was going to be making the presentation and is not a vet or does not come from a scientific background and is not known in the industry then it is also more risky as she may not be able to answer some of the more detailed scientific questions.


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## amandap (11 May 2012)

I thought Brian was a competition horse?  

Hopefully if the message gets across about the need to allow hooves to mature, get and keep hooves strong from birth then many of these problems horses have will just disappear with a puff of smoke.

Bickerchickone, whatever "type of person" you are I think you seem fab.


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## TwoStroke (11 May 2012)

Well, that doesn't sound like the Nic Barker I've heard about at all. Indeed she was all too happy to try and help me with advice on my barefoot horse, with no financial incentive at all.


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## amandap (11 May 2012)

Don't know what Brian was doing before his problems but... http://rockleyfarm.blogspot.com/2012/04/bryan-totally-under-rated-yesterday-so.html


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## Pale Rider (11 May 2012)

TwoStroke said:



			Well, that doesn't sound like the Nic Barker I've heard about at all. Indeed she was all too happy to try and help me with advice on my barefoot horse, with no financial incentive at all.
		
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^^Agreed^^
Another vote for Bickerchickone, as well,lol.


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## Bikerchickone (11 May 2012)

Lol, thanks guys, can only say it as I find it, and sorry Delta99 I'm definitely not your 'sweetie'. I believe the problem with your story lies in the inconsistencies, however be that as it may I'm glad your horse is doing well. We each have the right to do as we see fit with our horses. I simply find it interesting that you feel so negatively about one who works so hard for them. 

I can only comment as I find. Nic has been exceptionally kind, patient, understanding and informative about every stage of rehab, and not having anywhere near your own professional experience Delta99, I'm sure I've asked many stupid questions along the way. Yet every question has been answered and I've never felt silly for asking. I guess that's due to Nic's infinite patience and passion for what she does. 

I believe agreeing to disagree here is the best scenario, since I cannot make your description of Nic and her methods tally with the person and place I have come to know. 

Well done for your success at home and I sincerely hope your horse continues to do well, as I'm sure you do mine.


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## shortstuff99 (11 May 2012)

Would it seem weird if I said that remedial shoeing and NOT BF worked for my mare? Her rotation reversed she is now back in normal shoes and full work and is sound as a pound! But I am not against BF per se, I think that more research is needed and we can't be set in a 'it must be one way or the other'. Surely we need to diagnose horses on a case by case basis and do whatever works best for that horse? Be it BF, shoes or a mx of both? Being biased in either direction is a sure fire way to stagnate and not improve hoof understanding.


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## Bikerchickone (11 May 2012)

I don't think that's weird at all. I think everyone should do what's right for their horses at the time. Barefoot is working for my cob and currently shoeing is working for my youngster. 

Whichever way keeps a horse sound and happy on its hooves is the right way to go. Really glad your mare is doing well Shortstuff, great news.  x


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## shortstuff99 (11 May 2012)

I agree! And thank you


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## marc (12 May 2012)

Delta99 said:



			Sweetie, I booked my horse in at Rockley after reading all the glowing reports of all these horses coming sound there.
I did not take him on the day he was supposed to go as I would have had to make a 4 hour journey in a trailer, in 50 mile an hour winds and no one in their right mind who cares about their horse (or in fact other road users!) would do this.

Nic Barker's only concern was the cost the one day delay would have for her. 
No concern about the welfare of the animal. (I'm sure a 24 hr delay would have been very costly at £ 125 a week for living out plus whatever grant she gets for the vets referrals!)
I'm afraid that this is not the type of person I want to look after my horse.

So, maybe my posts about Rockley do seem harsh to you, but I feel very strongly an accurate picture needs to be painted of this place and believe you me, I have tried to be polite, as I was in my pm to you, obviously the message of 'be careful!' did not get through.

Rockley is not the cure for all horses. Most horses that come away from Rockley are still lame, it doesn't matter whether they are 7/10 lame or 1/10, they are lame nonetheless. I do not ride a lame horse.

Nic was also very cagey about what she actually does, and very evasive about whether any of her rehabs had returned to competition work. 
Yes, I'm sure if my horse had gone to Rockley and I saw him now I would say, wow, what an improvement.
But you know what, the horse has shown the same improvement just sitting in the field and I'm nearly £3000 better off.

And please, watch those videos! Those horses are LAME! (of course riding lame horses is not exclusive to Rockley, a lot of people don't realise that their horse is lame.)

Based on what I have seen and heard in the last few months I can only say thank God for that windy day!

And before you ask, I have spent many years working and training for my BHSI in big equestrian centres so trust me, I have acquired a little bit of knowledge about horses.

I do really think it's a great shame that it always comes to this, I always try to be objective and as I said before, for a certain type of owner Rockley is a fantastic place. 
Let's just say, it is not the place for a competition horse (there, see, being polite again.)
If you want harsh, please read the thread on Parelli, someone put a post in there that could be applied to Rockley....
		
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I agree with this post. Perhaps the research got rejected because it wasn't written well enough or maybe because it is just pure evangalism. Anyways I'm sure they make plenty of money there. I hope they dont rely on insurance policies to pay them their wages as they will all start to follow NFUs lead.


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## lottie1 (12 May 2012)

OK I wasn't going to comment as these posts are covering such wide ground from Rockley bashing to barefoot worship but as Bryan's owner I would like to make the following points specifically about Bryan:

1. Bryan was competing at 1.50m level (show jumping) prior to his injury.  So I think that covers the competition horse aspect!
2. Bryan was totally written off following MRI due to the complexity of his foot injuries combined with his age - advised to "cut out the middle man (ie the vet) and go direct to the local knackerman".
3. I have had two other horses within the last two years diagnosed similarly and having followed all my vet's advice to the letter they were both eventually put down. I wanted to see if there was any alternative even if it only meant that Bryan could return to light hacking and be affordable to keep (without expensive remedial shoeing and drugs) for someone who just wanted to have him on loan.  This was about QUALITY of life for the horse.  The Rockley rehab process in my opinion is far better for the horse than six months box rest and a year in the field, and the veterinary route had not proved successful for me in the past.
4. I agree Bryan is not level yet but he is sound (horses do not have to be symmetrical to be sound) and in no discomfort.  His stride length is improving all the time and although I never expected him to return to competition it certainly looks like a possibility now!

I sent Nic the videos to show how he was progressing ie still changing.  He is only 14 weeks into working without shoes and his feet have changed totally and are still changing.  I have many other horses which are all shod.

Right off to hug some trees and cuddle some fluffy bunnies......


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## ester (12 May 2012)

thanks for posting lottie, good to know a bit more about him . 

As for the money.. I bought some pea gravel recently and having seen how much of it Nic has that cost a fortune!


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## dreams579 (12 May 2012)

Delta99 said:



			Sweetie, I booked my horse in at Rockley after reading all the glowing reports of all these horses coming sound there.
I did not take him on the day he was supposed to go as I would have had to make a 4 hour journey in a trailer, in 50 mile an hour winds and no one in their right mind who cares about their horse (or in fact other road users!) would do this.

Nic Barker's only concern was the cost the one day delay would have for her. 
No concern about the welfare of the animal. (I'm sure a 24 hr delay would have been very costly at £ 125 a week for living out plus whatever grant she gets for the vets referrals!)
I'm afraid that this is not the type of person I want to look after my horse.
		
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as far as i am aware, Nic get absolutely NO money from vet referrals or from insurance companies (owners may find some of their claim is covered by the insurance but its purely up to the owner to pay Nic's fees)

and i do know that Nic took great deliberation about your situation; she hates saying to people they can't come. it was NOT based purely on money as you seem to state. what your posted doesn't make clear is that the horse on the waiting list after you was getting lamer and lamer by the day whilst being on boxrest and having to wear some of the most ridiculously high wedges I have ever seen. In comparison, from what i understand of your situation, your horse was already barefoot and you had started the rehab yourself and had made Nic no guarantee that it would only be a 24hr delay (obviously, please feel free to correct me on this, i don't know your situation, only the conversations i had with Nic). the decision was therefore made based on her judgement of the horse most in need of the rehab - purely welfare grounds. Given my understanding of the situation, i would also have make exactly the same decision.

I'd also just like to remind people of the 'rockley scholarship' where Nic has is rehabing someone's horse for free except for a small contribution to cover feed. Is that the action of someone who is only concerned about financial decisions or someone who really wants to help as many horses as possible?

i'm really glad your boy is improving with you. i've only tried to present here what i know of the other side of the decision about your horse and apologies if anything i have said about your personal situation is not accurate; i just want people to have a few more facts to make their own minds up.


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## criso (12 May 2012)

I just wanted to add a couple of things.

Firstly as someone whose horse was at Rockley, my experience of Nic Barker in no way matches what has been said and was certainly not a money grabbing expensive approach.  


Various people made money trying to fix my horse, but Rockley was not at the top of this league table.

It cost me the same as 5 day livery in Herts so didn't cost me anything compared to the thousands NFU paid out in non proven treatments and remedial farriery in the 18 months before he went.

Having said that, I think there is some validity in the competition horse point in that it is unlikely to happen.  If mine had been owned by a professional rider, I don't believe that as much trouble would have been taken.  I think he would have been pts or if lucky given to someone to hack lightly.  I am not saying that professional riders don't care about their horses, they do and will do the best for them, but they take a much more practical approach and a horse with long term and recurrent issues is not going to be kept.  Not saying it couldn't work, just that it's more likely that leisure riders go down this route.  Like Lottie1, my hope was he would stay sound enough at least for light hacking as he wasn't even staying field sound so I'm thrilled that we've gone further. 


In terms of the research, I don't know if it matches required criteria as it's not my area. However  I don't have such rose tinted views of this fantastic research that is happening outside of this.   The clinic where Frankie had his MRI, followed up outcomes as part of a study.  This took the highly scientific approach of  a questionnaire for the owner to fill in, I was asked as a lay person to assess my horse current grade of lameness etc

As for whether he was sound when he returned, the day after he came back we took him up to RVC where he was assessed by the same vet in the same place an trotted sound on a 10m circle on concrete for the first time in 2 years.


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## tallyho! (12 May 2012)

Depends if people have the knowledge, confidence, support, facilities, time etc to do it at home...

Wonder why vets don't recommend? They do in my neck of the woods... can't say that for everyone.


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## Oberon (12 May 2012)

Delta99 said:



			Ok, as a final thing to say to this, Nic did not say I could not take my boy there. I was very very hesitant about sending him there to begin with and when her only concern was financial, that was the end of it for me.

At no point did Nic mention that there was another horse that was getting lamer every day (and why on earth would the owner let that happen??! The shoes could have been taken off at home and the rehab started before the horse went to Rockley.)

Talking about money, given £ 125 per week at Rockley and the number of horses I saw there minus the cost of the horses living out, by my calculation Nic clears at least £70,000 per annum after tax so even if you take into account maintenance, I would say that's a pretty good income for a few hours work every day.

Once again I'm not saying that she isn't doing a lot of good but I will continue to try to give people who are thinking about sending their horse there a more objective view.
At the end of the day one does have to wonder why vets are not recommending barefoot as a treatment option.
Incidently Nic spoke to my vet and informed me that he was very positive - yet he did not give me a referral to Rockley.

Lottie1, I'm not actually sure Brian is one of the horses I was referring to but if he is I'm sorry you had to see this, I'm sure reading on a public forum that your horse is lame is very upsetting. (unlevel = lame, I'm afraid).
My concern with this was that Rockley and people on this forum lead others to believe that 12 weeks at Rockley and the horse will be sound and back in full work when this is clearly not the case.
At least that has now been revised to the time at Rockley is only the beginning of the rehab - at which point one has to wonder why anyone would spend approximately £3000 when the beginning of the rehab can be done at home for around £300?
		
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So you are suggesting the Nic doesn't charge at all and do it all for free? 

Do any other rehab yards offer their services for free?

I personally don't suggest to anyone that their horse will be sound after 12 weeks at Rockley....I point them in Nic's direction and let them contact her and then make their own decision.

Perhaps I have more faith in the intelligence of the posters on this forum, it seems.

As all the posters who have replied on this forum that have actually sent their horses to Rockley, have had positive views....I would suggest you appear to have a axe to grind with your statements on here and your negative pms to people considering Rockley.

That does not strike me as a balanced view in my book.

If we could have a poster who had indeed sent their horse to Rockley and had negative things to say - I would be more inclined to listen to them.

As it is, it saddens me that you have put such energy into trashing someone's reputation on this thread.

I hope you and your horse continue to do well.


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## Pale Rider (12 May 2012)

It will take more than a peevish post from Delta99 to trash a reputation like, Nic or Rockley I'm happy to say.


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## ester (12 May 2012)

I have never, in my years on this forum and when I was very bf sceptical and had many a 'discussion ' read that 12 weeks at rockley produces a fully rehabbed/sound/in full work horse . . . It does provide a unique environment, it may give some horses and excellent head start, and is most probably easier on a lot of owner inclined to worry (like most of us do about our beasts!) On which note I am off to worry about my 5.5 weeks in barefooter and take him for his daily constitutional .


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## Bikerchickone (12 May 2012)

Have to say I'd like to know how you've come to the figures you've given in your post Delta99? As far as I can tell 12 weeks of rehab at £125 is nowhere near £3000? More like half of it! I also find it interesting that you think Nic makes so much money! Nic has 7 rehab horses at a time, nowhere near the crowd of 20 you quoted me by pm, and owns only 4 of her own! 

I have a very good friend who runs her own yard and struggles to make money charging more than Nic does for livery. I honestly fail to see how you can imagine Nic to be rolling in money for what she does. 

I truly believe you have something of a grudge for some reason, and since your comments are so far from the reality of Rockley I'm afraid I don't think your views here are credible, especially when, despite being firmly negative about Nic and Rockley, you're using exactly the same methods to treat your horse! 

Might I also suggest you go back and read some of your own threads about your horse where you post about how the lameness has improved but isn't gone and you've been riding for about a month. Then you can tell us again how you don't like riding lame horses!

Again, we're all glad your horse is doing well.


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## SusieT (12 May 2012)

If rockely is happyf ro lots of positive posts, they have to expect some negative. Interesting anyway! I've always said a commercial operation can have issues when it comes to saying they can fix anything-which is often the attitude that rockely comes across as having-it's not in their interest to say no, they may not be doing it on purpose but something has to pay the bills. Nothing wrong with it, but should be pointed out to anyone thinking it's all about the horse-bills have to be met.


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## SusieT (12 May 2012)

And yes, unlevel is lame.. that is the part of the barefoot world that makes mos tof us uncomfortable-the happiness to work a lame horse. Lame on a circle generally means lame!


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## Bikerchickone (12 May 2012)

I agree with you that it's dangerous to make out that one method can fix everything, but I'm not sure that idea has come from Rockley. 

When I first contacted Nic via email to talk about the possibility of my horse going there she was quite careful to say that she couldn't guarantee that he would come sound again. 

In fact Nic was very careful to advise me that all rehab horses are taken for one month initially to see if any improvement can be made, so that a decision can be made as to whether or not completing the full 12 weeks of rehab would be beneficial. 

I think the key point here is that everyone involved wants to see their horses improve, I don't think it matters which way that improvement is achieved. Barefoot has its place as do shoes. I don't care which works for my horses as long as something does. I currently have one shod and one barefoot so personally I don't think the two are mutually exclusive. 

If my horses are happy so am I.


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## criso (12 May 2012)

SusieT said:



			. that is the part of the barefoot world that makes mos tof us uncomfortable-the happiness to work a lame horse.
		
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Actually it was the vets who were telling me to "bute him up and work him through it" and that was a major factor for me in sending him to Rockley and trying barefoot as I wasn't prepared to do that.


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## tallyho! (12 May 2012)

SusieT said:



			And yes, unlevel is lame.. that is the part of the barefoot world that makes mos tof us uncomfortable-the happiness to work a lame horse. Lame on a circle generally means lame!
		
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Yes but lame from what?


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## Bikerchickone (12 May 2012)

I missed that post SusieT. Horses can be unlevel for many different reasons, some completely unrelated to their hooves. 

Again I repeat, I've not seen Nic ride a lame horse. I have however seen a friend struggle with vet advice to ride her lame mare because the vet believed that doing so would strengthen the problem area. Much as I might disagree it did work for her girl.


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## dreams579 (12 May 2012)

Oberon said:



			So you are suggesting the Nic doesn't charge at all and do it all for free? 

Do any other rehab yards offer their services for free?

I personally don't suggest to anyone that their horse will be sound after 12 weeks at Rockley....I point them in Nic's direction and let them contact her and then make their own decision.

Perhaps I have more faith in the intelligence of the posters on this forum, it seems.

As all the posters who have replied on this forum that have actually sent their horses to Rockley, have had positive views....I would suggest you appear to have a axe to grind with your statements on here and your negative pms to people considering Rockley.

That does not strike me as a balanced view in my book.

If we could have a poster who had indeed sent their horse to Rockley and had negative things to say - I would be more inclined to listen to them.

As it is, it saddens me that you have put such energy into trashing someone's reputation on this thread.

I hope you and your horse continue to do well.
		
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Brilliant post!


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## SusieT (12 May 2012)

People are allowed to say poisitve things-people are allowed to say negative things. That's how being a commercial business happens. An unlevel horse unless there has been a mechanical change (arthodesis for example) is avoiding putting weight somewhere that is sore. Work sound horses all you want, but there are several videos of horses with 'powerful movement' and 'bouncy trots' etc. at home supposedly doing really well that are mincing along, being pushed to perform which isn't in the horses best interest.


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## dreams579 (12 May 2012)

Delta99 said:



			Ok, as a final thing to say to this, Nic did not say I could not take my boy there. I was very very hesitant about sending him there to begin with and when her only concern was financial, that was the end of it for me.

At no point did Nic mention that there was another horse that was getting lamer every day (and why on earth would the owner let that happen??! The shoes could have been taken off at home and the rehab started before the horse went to Rockley.)

Talking about money, given £ 125 per week at Rockley and the number of horses I saw there minus the cost of the horses living out, by my calculation Nic clears at least £70,000 per annum after tax so even if you take into account maintenance, I would say that's a pretty good income for a few hours work every day.

Once again I'm not saying that she isn't doing a lot of good but I will continue to try to give people who are thinking about sending their horse there a more objective view.
At the end of the day one does have to wonder why vets are not recommending barefoot as a treatment option.
Incidently Nic spoke to my vet and informed me that he was very positive - yet he did not give me a referral to Rockley.

Lottie1, I'm not actually sure Brian is one of the horses I was referring to but if he is I'm sorry you had to see this, I'm sure reading on a public forum that your horse is lame is very upsetting. (unlevel = lame, I'm afraid).
My concern with this was that Rockley and people on this forum lead others to believe that 12 weeks at Rockley and the horse will be sound and back in full work when this is clearly not the case.
At least that has now been revised to the time at Rockley is only the beginning of the rehab - at which point one has to wonder why anyone would spend approximately £3000 when the beginning of the rehab can be done at home for around £300?
		
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i really think you need to check your math - £125 x 12 weeks = £1500, not £3000. I've got no idea where or why you are bringing up this £70000 figure - what on earth does that have to do with anything!? Nic takes a maximum of 7 rehab horses at a time, i don't know how many you seem to think she has but its certainly not herds of 20+ which seems to be what you are implying. and they don't all live out all the time, so there are stabling costs to consider and the cost of the upkeep of the tracks - the pea gravel is not cheap and given the lovely exmoor weather, does need topping up quite regularly. Personally, I think £125 for full livery including exercise is very cheap! i'm on assisted DIY at home and was paying nearly £200 a month for shoes - sending my horse to rockley actually didn't work out any more expensive than having him on livery.

you mention that your vet didn't give you a referral - well Nic only takes horses on referral, so the fact that you were going means you did get a referral. maybe not written, but your vet would have had to have given Nic his permission somehow.

and i think many vets don't recommend it because they are unaware of the benefits; which is exactly what Nic was trying to address by submitting to BEVA... i.e the original topic of this post, which has now decended into how much money Nic makes a year! oh shock horror, must be a barefoot thread


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## SusieT (12 May 2012)

dreams-what is your connection with nic? you seem to know a lot about the business..


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## MotherOfChickens (12 May 2012)

regardless of the facts (who cares about facts lol, why let them stand in the way of a good story!? *rolls eyes*)

god forbid that an equestrian professional make a bloody living out of their job (and for £125 they'll not be buying a ferrari quite yet), much better that they subsidise the horse owners expensive, luxury hobby.


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## dreams579 (12 May 2012)

SusieT said:



			dreams-what is your connection with nic? you seem to know a lot about the business..
		
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i'm a rehab owner (Nico's my boy if you have read her blogs) with a background in equine research (hence why i encouraged Nic to try to publish her results). The things I know are only from long conversations with Nic about the rehab process, and from things I have observed whilst i have been down there, because, contrary to Delta99's opinion, Nic is very open and realistic about exactly what she does with these horses and the outcomes she expects at the end


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## Bikerchickone (12 May 2012)

I don't know can't dreams but I've given exactly the same facts earlier in this post and I know the things I know because my horse is a Rockley rehab currently and I've spent a great deal of time following (translate to mean pestering) Nic and seeing what she does. I'm sure anyone who's had a horse at Rockley would be able to say the same. 

I can promise you she's not driving a Ferrari


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## nic83 (12 May 2012)

I started to write a really long reply addressing all the points I wanted to make having read this post, however, most of it has already been said so instead I will say with this:

I have been out this afternoon in the sunshine on a lovely hack on my horse, and these last few weeks I have been schooling my horse with a view to returning to competition (local level dressage  alright it might not be badminton but whose to judge, its what we did before he went lame). This is on a horse who, if it wasnt for Nic probably wouldnt be here as everything else had failed.

The fact that his rehab cost me the same as his livery at home is neither here nor there, but as I sat on my horse this afternoon the feeling was priceless, and its down to Nic for helping me and my horse to still have afternoons like that. 

It is perhaps slightly irrelevant but it underpins why I think people like Nic should be supported for the work that they do and while scepticism is to be expected, and indeed its  good to question things because that is how we learn. I am however appalled and angered at some of the personal and downright rude comments and assertions that have been made about her.


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## dreams579 (12 May 2012)

bikerchickone said:



			I can promise you she's not driving a Ferrari 

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 but a ferrari would work so perfectly down those muddy potholed lanes on exmoor! i think Nic is missing a trick there  maybe she should buy a convertable too!


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## Bikerchickone (12 May 2012)

Wish I could quote you nic83, brilliant post. Nic deserves to be treated with the respect a hardworking professional*should be given, not undermined by people who clearly don't know anything about her or what she does.


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## Bikerchickone (12 May 2012)

Lol Dreams! I think she'd spend more time using Domino to pull the Ferrari out of the mud than driving it!


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## dreams579 (12 May 2012)

bikerchickone said:



			Lol Dreams! I think she'd spend more time using Domino to pull the Ferrari out of the mud than driving it! 

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I'm sure he'd be happy to oblige! hows he doing? are you starting to think about bringing him home yet? must be pretty much 12 weeks now!


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## Bikerchickone (12 May 2012)

He would, bless him, he's up for anything! Doing really well too, and coming home in a couple of weeks, I can't wait! The most amazing difference for me has been the speed he wants to go downhill at now! He used to crawl down any slope but now he's striding out better than ever. 

How's Nico doing?  x


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## dreams579 (12 May 2012)

bikerchickone said:



			He would, bless him, he's up for anything! Doing really well too, and coming home in a couple of weeks, I can't wait! The most amazing difference for me has been the speed he wants to go downhill at now! He used to crawl down any slope but now he's striding out better than ever. 

How's Nico doing?  x
		
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you must be looking forward to him coming home now! sounds like he is really on the mend.

Nic's doing fab. He's really muscled up now and is so much more powerful from behind than he used to be. its interesting that although going barefoot has sorted his front limb lameness out, certainly at the moment, its had the biggest impact on his movement behind. i think the front end still has a little way to go, but he's improving all the time. need to get him jumping soon if we are gonna go to the reunion!


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## Bikerchickone (12 May 2012)

Fantastic news, really pleased for you, he's such a lovely lad. I'm hoping we'll be able to get to the reunion too, but definitely not going to be jumping since it terrifies me lol! So glad he's doing well.  x


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## tallyho! (12 May 2012)

SusieT said:



			People are allowed to say poisitve things-people are allowed to say negative things. That's how being a commercial business happens. An unlevel horse unless there has been a mechanical change (arthodesis for example) is avoiding putting weight somewhere that is sore. Work sound horses all you want, but there are several videos of horses with 'powerful movement' and 'bouncy trots' etc. at home supposedly doing really well that are mincing along, being pushed to perform which isn't in the horses best interest.
		
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People can say what they want and they do.

It is not in the horses best interest that you sit on its back to be fair... and lameness can be due to a thousand different factors, one of which is just sitting on it's back. Weren't you trying to insinuate (and delta99) that the lameness was due to just hooves?? Do you have any clinical papers to prove that please?

If we rewound the life tape of the horse from the moment it was diagnosed with caudal hoof pain, do you honestly think you could pin it down to one factor? If so, please tell us so we stop chasing "useless" approaches to the problems such as wedges/heartbar/barefoot/unshod/eggbar/saddle fitting/dentistry/bitting/massage etc etc???

I know the answer


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## dreams579 (12 May 2012)

bikerchickone said:



			Fantastic news, really pleased for you, he's such a lovely lad. I'm hoping we'll be able to get to the reunion too, but definitely not going to be jumping since it terrifies me lol! So glad he's doing well.  x
		
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aw well, plenty of nice riding to be had around MKE without needing to jump 

it should be so much fun meeting everyone properly and seeing so many rehab horses happy cantering about the place! i know i for one can't thank Nic enough for giving me my darling horse back, and i know theres plenty of other rehab owners who would think the same


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## tallyho! (12 May 2012)

Not just Nic... I just want to add, that if it wasn't for "barefoot" I too would not have a horse...


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## SO1 (12 May 2012)

With regard to the price £125 is £18 a day which is not a great deal with you consider that places with enough land to keep horses out are expensive, it is probably cheaper to have a place where the horses are stabled and there is less land! 

So that £18 a day will contribute a bit to yard costs such as mortgage, most of the horses do not seem like good doer pony types so unless there is loads of grass the horses will need supplementing with hay or some other feed.

If Nic does one hour of work with the horse each day be that ridden or trimming, grooming etc then she is probably not making much more than £15 an hour at the most which is less than most riding instructors make.

On her research page it says 30 horses are included from 2008 to 2011 she is not going be making much money if only 30 have been rehabed in 3 years that is 10 per year which is £15,000

For her to bring in 70,000 after tax she would have to rehab over 500 horses a year.


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## Bikerchickone (12 May 2012)

Thank goodness for the voice of reason!  

I just hope that with all the positive experiences of barefoot, whether at Rockley or not, somebody somewhere who can help make the results known and accepted will pick up on the impressive results and help to take them further. 

As an owner I'd love to be able to have my horse rescanned after he's completed his rehab period. Unfortunately I simply can't afford to do so. 

If we can just get the word out about what all barefooters are achieving then maybe we can get some funding in place so that there are quantifiable results available for all to see. 

I live in hope, but until then I'll continue to spread the word about my understanding and experiences. 

Ps, dreams I look forward to seeing you at RRR.  x


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## tallyho! (12 May 2012)

p.s. a HHO barefoot meet up sounds awesome


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## Bikerchickone (12 May 2012)

It sure does! Could be a logistical nightmare to set up, but what fun! 

My vote is for down south lol!


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## tallyho! (12 May 2012)

Me too !!!


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## Bikerchickone (13 May 2012)

Excellent! Who's going to organise it? Lol  x


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## Holly Hocks (13 May 2012)

tallyho! said:



			Not just Nic... I just want to add, that if it wasn't for "barefoot" I too would not have a horse...
		
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Me too - veterinary advice was companion or PTS......I'm back on board and hacking out.  Not schooling yet, but I've got all winter to do the schooling!


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## amandap (13 May 2012)

criso said:



			Actually it was the vets who were telling me to "bute him up and work him through it" and that was a major factor for me in sending him to Rockley and trying barefoot as I wasn't prepared to do that.
		
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I read this vet advice almost every day on here and other forums. It makes me shudder tbh. 

Horses can be 'lame' for many reasons a major one being compensation from years of foot soreness causes body problems. How do you correct this? Shoe and bute?


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## dressagecrazy (13 May 2012)

I tend to stay away from threads like these, but I have read nearly all of the thread.

I am a person who turned to Barefoot when my dressage horse was diagnosed with Severe Impar ligament damage & adhesions to the DDFT. The foot internal structure was a complete mess. The horse would be hoping lame & 30 mins later sort of sound. But then as soon as any lateral movement occurred he would be back to hoping lame & I mean that lame he couldn't move. His prognosis was extremely poor & I was advised that if he would make a field ornament I would be lucky.

I decided to go down the BF route, I looked into Rockley but for my horse it wouldn't of been an option. He is not a well socialised horse he came to me as a very screwed up horse & it took 2 years to straighten his mind out. So to send him there as I say would not of been a good option for a very hot headed fit horse. 

So I decided to do it myself, from my own experience I will say I never expected in a million years to have a sound horse in 12 weeks, & guess what he wasn't. But we did see changes week by week, the lameness even though it would still happen the lameness it's self was changing. He was no longer getting to the hopping lame stage & the frequency of the severe lameness was getting longer apart.

Eventually with a lot of carefully management he did come sound, that was last April. He's now working Back at the same level he was before the injury. I am still rediculous pedantic over him as I'm sure any of you would be.

It was always on the cards to re-MRI him, but the horse was left with issues after his stay at Leahurst. He used to allow me to do anything with his hooves & trusted me implicitly. Since his MRI's he's been a different horse & will slam his hooves down on me & generally be a pain to do hoof things with. So as much as I would love to see the data of a new MRI I just can't put him through it. But I know that info would definitely help the case for horses being Barefoot.


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## cptrayes (13 May 2012)

Fantastic news about the adhesions DC. I always worry about whether adhesions will go too far to be broken and resolved. I'm glad yours has. Well done with your painstaking management to achieve it.


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## tallyho! (13 May 2012)

bikerchickone said:



			Excellent! Who's going to organise it? Lol  x
		
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It would be fun if people were interested...  xx


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## ThePony (13 May 2012)

tallyho! said:



			It would be fun if people were interested...  xx
		
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Slightly OT from the start of this post, but OMG, I would love this!! Am a South ish person, not a rockley rehab, but were lucky enough to take our girl down to see Nic for some advice. 

I do think it is a shame such an interesting thread has decended into mud slinging and slander. I should imagine anyone with half a brain will realise that so many insanely grateful people for Nics knowledge and openness rather over rules a grumpy one lol!


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## j1ffy (15 May 2012)

I have only just come across this post having looked to see if anyone had mentioned Nic's blog post, and I'm very  at where it headed!!  It seems that emotion has overtaken passion, which sadly seems to happen whenever barefoot gets mentioned here.  I would love to see research as would most other sensible horse owners - we all want the best for our horses and to give them the greatest chance of sound lives.  I know Nic has tried for years to get interest in research from many routes so if anyone knows of any bright young PhD students or colleges looking for research subjects, I'm sure she'd love to hear ideas!!

As for ex-rehabs 'mincing', I think my boy is striding out pretty well...  He left Rockley 6 months prior to these pics being there, having been re-habbed for caudal hoof pain in his off-fore that had been an issue on and off for nearly a year (it was incorrectly diagnosed for a long time, Rockley was my _first_ choice once it was correctly diagnosed):











As for the comments about Nic, all I can say is that she is the most open, honest, straighforward person that I have met in the horse world.  Perhaps as a result of her lawyer background, she is always very clear about what she will do with your horse and the potential outcomes.  She then does exactly what she promises and her communications are always consistent and clear.  At no point did I feel there was any interest other than the wellbeing of my horse, and I only wish there were more people around like her!!


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## Pale Rider (15 May 2012)

Nice post J1ffy, Another trimmer I know has just closed their book to new customers, unable to take any more.

Feel the argument is won, merely a matter of time before barefoot is the mainstream.


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## sbloom (15 May 2012)

Quite gobsmacked reading some of this, having met Nic and seen first hand what she does at Rockley.  I am quite sure that anyone investigating barefoot, or perhaps sending their horse to Nic, will get quite a clear picture about the Rockley story, and its detractors.


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## amandap (15 May 2012)

Lovely photos j1ffy.


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## stormybracken (15 May 2012)

Another satisfied customer of Rockley Farm.

After at least a year of lameness and seemingly endless involvement with vets my horse Storm had an MRI and the official prognosis of "poor" by the vet plus the verbal suggestion I have him pts, just as the insurance was due to run out.  Two weeks later Storm went to Nic, and now we are Happy Hackers, and have been since the day after he came home in August 2010.

No claims made by Nic before or during his rehabilitation, no magic wand was stressed several times - what else do you say to someone sobbing down the phone, plenty of free time given by email and on the phone and in person before, during and since his time there.

This thread has been very refreshing compared to the barefoot threads from 2-3 years ago when I was desperately trying to find a solution to my horse's obvious pain, and there have been some very positive responses to the BEVA blog - basically don't give up!  Plus I love to hear about other horses' recovery from injury, whether barefoot or shod.

IMO the facts speak for themselves, my horse was lame before, and IS sound after, and has remained sound...so far...it's my responsibility to keep him that way, and to continue with the rehabilitation which started during his 14 weeks at Rockley Farm.  This is for Life.


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## Jasons Dad (19 May 2012)

I don't know much about science but a few vids and photos don't really look like science so maybe that was the problem!


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