# NAF Pink Powder Breakdown



## TigerTail (25 November 2011)

Somebody asked me on another thread why I dont like this product so instead of thread crashing I thought id start a new one.

NAF pink powder ingredients



			Ingredients:
Wheatfeed, Dicalcium phosphate, Maize, Brewers' yeast, Bitter orange peel (ripe), Whey protein powder, Methyl
sulphonyl methane, White mineral oil, Sodium chloride, Fructo-oligosaccharides, Whey powder, Glutamine, Wheat protein, Magnesium oxide.
		
Click to expand...

Wheatfeed - Anything that has feed or meal on the end of it is the sweeping off the factory floor when the actual seed has been used for something else. I dont know why anyone would spend their hard earned money on that, specially when its not concentrated enough to be of any use. This is whats known as a filler, it adds weight to the pretty pink tub but costs NAF nothing 

Dicalcium phosphate - mainly found as a binder for cereals and in toothpaste, known irritating effect in humans, of little help to the horse. Is a calcium source but there are far better ones available.


Maize - a cereal which horses arent designed to digest. Low in fibre,high in starch, the opposite of what we want to be feeding horses.

Brewers Yeast - fine though low concentration, again better sources available for your money!

Bitter orange peel (ripe) - I havn't the blinking foggiest why this included! I cant find any studies extolling its benefits for the horse. Im guessing it sounds exotic and tasty?!?! There are experiments being conducted as to whether it can be included in ephedrine free drinks/foods which suggests to me its a stimulant - why is it in a horse supplement?!

Whey protein powder - whey its whats left over from dairy products, something else horses arent designed to eat. Yes it has protein content so good in that sense but again not something id expect to feed to a horse and not have digestive issues. No real benefit.

Methyl sulphonyl methane - msm as its usually known, fine but no details of the source so you dont know if its pure. Also no quantity so unlikely to be enough to make a massive difference.

White mineral oil - the pretty name for liquid petrolatum or liquid paraffin. Derived from crude petroleum. Used to be used as a drench laxative if youve got impaction colic. Guessing its the binder in this supplement.

Sodium chloride - Salt - fine though again no source or dosage listed.

Fructo-oligosaccharides - this is your pre biotic, insulin derived, can be found in some sweeteners, not too bad but doesnt excite me massively!

Whey Powder - See whey protein powder above, listed a second time to pad out the ingredients list?! Same problems now doubled!

Glutamine - one of the 20 amino acids, not recognised as a main one though. Has its uses but we dont know the dosage.

Wheat Protein - similar problem to whey, though this at least obtained from a plant not dairy - but that plant is a cereal. Higher in protein than Maize.

Magnesium Oxide - I sincerely hope these arent listed in order of importance! Plays an important part in nerve endings and muscle functions, known for a calming effect, useful to supplement with in the UK dependent on your grass analysis.

Anything in red I wouldnt be happy to feed my own horse. The rest has its uses but performance is in question in this particular product due to lack of details on sources and quantities. Given the standard of the rest of the ingredients I wouldnt get too excited.

As we know in regards to vets and barefoot, they are often not the most well informed on very specific equine issues - I wouldnt expect a general vet to research each and every supplement available - thats my responsibility as an owner to know EXACTLY what im putting in my horse. They are 'safe' to recommend this as its an approved product and I suspect they do so that over anxious horse owners feel like they're doing something useful/ or get a cut of the sale (me? a cynic?! noooo!)

As always READ THE LABELS and do your own research into what you want to spend your money on and what you think is going to best help your horse.

 PS the above all applies to your dog food.......


----------



## black_horse (25 November 2011)

I have read it and that is all very well but i know that my mare has done wonders on it.


----------



## forestfantasy (25 November 2011)

Very interesting reading, i don't feed it or have a need to at the moment so luckily i havent wasted my money!

Unbelievable what they'll shove in feed knowing that the vast majority don't read the label or understand it.


----------



## leflynn (25 November 2011)

What would be your alternative to it? Just curious


----------



## scrunchie (25 November 2011)

Interesting. 

I've used it in the past after my Welshy had diahorrea after being moved onto a field with better grass than he was used to. He seemed to do well on it. (Mind you, he was in the process of getting better anyway.)


----------



## ellie_e (25 November 2011)

Wow! How interesting!!! I always look at the labels, but its not until actually look into what affects they have on the animal you realise how much cr*p they put into the tubs to 'fill' it out


----------



## equinim (25 November 2011)

a good quality feed balancer has the GOOD bits of pink powder and they state how much is in the product.
most balancers dont have fillers.
i have used pin powder and it has made some horses hyper.
i now feed a balancer 365 days 
i have seen fab results/difference  over the past 2 years
and it costs me 25p a day and reduces amount of other feed
i only feed fibre based feeds no cereals 
i have equines with health, behavioural, veteran issues 
stallions/ brodmares/foals to veterans
so have a selection and it works on all my herd


----------



## Snowman (25 November 2011)

I really found this very interesting, thank you TigerTail.  I've spent most of this week looking up different multivitamins/supplements for horses and trying to work out which would be best to feed in terms of rda's and other things.  Its so confusing if you're not familiar with what you're looking at  even worse some brands dont put quantities on their websites or labels in terms of mg/kg or iu.

I read on the other thread you dont appear to be a fan of NAF (which I can understand having read this), which makes do you prefer?


----------



## amandap (25 November 2011)

Deleted as I don't know enough.lol


----------



## WandaMare (25 November 2011)

You raise some interesting points but my experience with the product has been all positive. I have used the product for a good number of years on various horses and there has always been a visible difference in condition once started. I am feeding the product now to a laminitc pony who has soaked hay and he is already looking much better, much happier too.

I for one will continue to use this product with confidence.


----------



## meesha (25 November 2011)

equinim - what balancer do you feed that is so cheap ? mine costs me £25 a bag and last about 5 weeks for one 600kg horse.  Would welcome a cheaper alternative
thanks


----------



## TigerTail (25 November 2011)

Cant seem to modify my original post!

Pro hoof - clear list of ingredients for everyone to see, including quantities. No added crap.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/PRO-HOOF-...r_Equipment&hash=item415ecd69e0#ht_1400wt_953


----------



## sunshine19 (25 November 2011)

TigerTail said:



			Cant seem to modify my original post!

Pro hoof - clear list of ingredients for everyone to see, including quantities. No added crap.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/PRO-HOOF-...r_Equipment&hash=item415ecd69e0#ht_1400wt_953

Click to expand...



I use this company for my micronised linseed, I can't rate them highly enough. I've always had an excellent service from them


----------



## classicalfan (25 November 2011)

Thanks TigerTail.  Interesting breakdown.  I too am a cynic when it comes to many of the commercially available products.  However, never use balancers, supplements, etc but then the horses here don't get commercial feeds so we don't feel the need.


----------



## Paint Me Proud (25 November 2011)

I have been using this product and have found it very good and no adverse effects to my horse.

I have only stopped using it now as my new feed has a balancer incorporated into it already.

Wouldnt stop me using Pink Powder again to be hoest


----------



## Oberon (25 November 2011)

Thank you TigerTail - preaching to the choir here.
	
	
		
		
	


	





I am often gobsmacked by Naf products. Have you seen the ingredients to Magic or Oestress? 
	
	
		
		
	


	





Not only that but most of the laminitis marketed feeds have Wheatfeed as their base 
	
	
		
		
	


	





Wheatfeed (aka Thirds) is something I've used in the past to put weight on! 

If anyone wants the benefits of Pink Powder for a fraction of the price - then just feed Brewer's Yeast
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/BREWERS-Y...ar_Equipment&hash=item415bde5a39#ht_970wt_952

and magnesium oxide
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/MAGNESIUM...r_Equipment&hash=item4158d7a68b#ht_1237wt_952

Or better still - just the Pro Hoof in a neutral base...


----------



## lachlanandmarcus (25 November 2011)

Tricky isnt it. I dont doubt anything you are saying about the ingredients, but on the other side I can absolutely say my horse stays much weller and much better condition,even in worse seasonal and age conditions than when I dont use it. But thankyou very much for the run down on the ingredients, very interesting and informative.

So I think I will continue to use it based on the evidence of what I see in front of me. PS none of my vets gets a kick back, and based from home counties to NE Scotland so good spread geographically. 

The other important thing is that my horse would not eat any of the other balancers/supplements we tried him on but he WILL eat the Pink powder. 

I dont have a problem with 'sweepings' either, as you could describe any by product in that way - eg sugar beet pulp is the sweepings after the sugar is taken out of the beet.... but still a useful and valuable feed. Or apple pulp for feeding pigs after the juice is extracted.


----------



## M_G (25 November 2011)

I have always wondered (and still do) why people think pink powder is a miracle cure all... People think its everything from a feed balancer/ multivitamin &mineral supliment to a probiotic, I know it's neither and as such have never fed it


----------



## sakura (25 November 2011)

interesting, but like many others I've used Pink Powder and had fantastic results

what would your alternative be for a horse with an extremely sensitive digestive system?


----------



## madgeymoo (25 November 2011)

bought one tub and found it a complete waste of time and money


----------



## Oberon (25 November 2011)

Indiangel said:



			interesting, but like many others I've used Pink Powder and had fantastic results

what would your alternative be for a horse with an extremely sensitive digestive system?
		
Click to expand...

Yea-sacc and/or brewer's yeast.

But it's not about one magic ingredient, it's about looking at the whole diet.

If the grass/hay/haylage is being fermented in the hind gut by a squadron of certain bacteria, living in a pH that makes them warm and comfy - then supplement to keep them that way, rather than a grain feed that changes the pH and messes up the bacteria.


----------



## EmmasMummy (25 November 2011)

I do believe that bitter orange is used as a Slimming aid, and so will give you a 'buzz' 

http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/bitter-orange/AN01218

Now I have tried slimming pills before, one with green tea and bitter orange and I had the shakes and palpitations.  But the dose might not be big enough to affect a horse.


----------



## BillyBob-Sleigh (25 November 2011)

On the online "advert" for brewers yeast is says that it's good for stressy horses - but does it actually work? (for the stress that is)


----------



## FairyLights (25 November 2011)

This is a very interesting thread After doing some amateurish research I decided against Pink powder not liking the white mineral oil and orange peel ingredients [do horses normally eat orange peel? ditto white mineral oil?] and bought Equimins instead. I am awaiting delivery but hope that the Equimins contain nothing odd.


----------



## Nocturnal (25 November 2011)

Doesn't pro-hoof also contain wheatfeed? That's what it says on my tub, anyway... I think more important is the specific vitamin/mineral composition - pro hoof seems to be the only commercially available supplement which is intended to balance typical uk grazing/forage, which is why I buy it.


----------



## Oberon (25 November 2011)

JessHakner said:



			On the online "advert" for brewers yeast is says that it's good for stressy horses - but does it actually work? (for the stress that is)
		
Click to expand...

Only if they are stressed due to magnesium deficiency or digestive upset.


----------



## StinkiPinki (25 November 2011)

TigerTail said:



			Somebody asked me on another thread why I dont like this product so instead of thread crashing I thought id start a new one.

NAF pink powder ingredients


Wheatfeed - Anything that has feed or meal on the end of it is the sweeping off the factory floor when the actual seed has been used for something else. I dont know why anyone would spend their hard earned money on that, specially when its not concentrated enough to be of any use. This is whats known as a filler, it adds weight to the pretty pink tub but costs NAF nothing 

Dicalcium phosphate - mainly found as a binder for cereals and in toothpaste, known irritating effect in humans, of little help to the horse. Is a calcium source but there are far better ones available.


Maize - a cereal which horses arent designed to digest. Low in fibre,high in starch, the opposite of what we want to be feeding horses.

Brewers Yeast - fine though low concentration, again better sources available for your money!

Bitter orange peel (ripe) - I havn't the blinking foggiest why this included! I cant find any studies extolling its benefits for the horse. Im guessing it sounds exotic and tasty?!?! There are experiments being conducted as to whether it can be included in ephedrine free drinks/foods which suggests to me its a stimulant - why is it in a horse supplement?!

Whey protein powder - whey its whats left over from dairy products, something else horses arent designed to eat. Yes it has protein content so good in that sense but again not something id expect to feed to a horse and not have digestive issues. No real benefit.

Methyl sulphonyl methane - msm as its usually known, fine but no details of the source so you dont know if its pure. Also no quantity so unlikely to be enough to make a massive difference.

White mineral oil - the pretty name for liquid petrolatum or liquid paraffin. Derived from crude petroleum. Used to be used as a drench laxative if youve got impaction colic. Guessing its the binder in this supplement.

Sodium chloride - Salt - fine though again no source or dosage listed.

Fructo-oligosaccharides - this is your pre biotic, insulin derived, can be found in some sweeteners, not too bad but doesnt excite me massively!

Whey Powder - See whey protein powder above, listed a second time to pad out the ingredients list?! Same problems now doubled!

Glutamine - one of the 20 amino acids, not recognised as a main one though. Has its uses but we dont know the dosage.

Wheat Protein - similar problem to whey, though this at least obtained from a plant not dairy - but that plant is a cereal. Higher in protein than Maize.

Magnesium Oxide - I sincerely hope these arent listed in order of importance! Plays an important part in nerve endings and muscle functions, known for a calming effect, useful to supplement with in the UK dependent on your grass analysis.

Anything in red I wouldnt be happy to feed my own horse. The rest has its uses but performance is in question in this particular product due to lack of details on sources and quantities. Given the standard of the rest of the ingredients I wouldnt get too excited.

As we know in regards to vets and barefoot, they are often not the most well informed on very specific equine issues - I wouldnt expect a general vet to research each and every supplement available - thats my responsibility as an owner to know EXACTLY what im putting in my horse. They are 'safe' to recommend this as its an approved product and I suspect they do so that over anxious horse owners feel like they're doing something useful/ or get a cut of the sale (me? a cynic?! noooo!)

As always READ THE LABELS and do your own research into what you want to spend your money on and what you think is going to best help your horse.

 PS the above all applies to your dog food.......







Click to expand...

Hmmm.. what you omit to write here is that Pink Powder also has absolutely loads of vits and mins and is also packed with amino acids (check it out on the NAF website, its all there) Orange peel is extremely high in natural vitamin C , surprised you didnt know this?!

SP


----------



## lachlanandmarcus (25 November 2011)

I did try brewers and mag ox with Mr Colic and he just looked at me as if I was dog doo.....and refused to eat his food all week. Changed back to PP and all happy. So it might be a much better product but if the horse wont eat it, it can be a waste of money too!

Also the amounts of PP you give mean that fillers or 'bad' ingredients are not likely to have much effect.


----------



## TigerTail (25 November 2011)

StinkiPinki said:



			Hmmm.. what you omit to write here is that Pink Powder also has absolutely loads of vits and mins and is also packed with amino acids (check it out on the NAF website, its all there) Orange peel is extremely high in natural vitamin C , surprised you didnt know this?!

SP
		
Click to expand...

Lmao are you serious??! Of course it says so on NAFs website..... Have you also looked at the amount per mg and then that per weight of horse....?

 Yes of course it does have some vits and mins, you'd blinking well hope so really! However what it also contains is a lot of crap and irritants!

As for Vit C, oranges are high in this, bitter orange is different to normal oranges and is used as a stimulant - not what im looking for in a balancer.


Those who are saying you'd still feed it, fine you are at least making an informed decision, im surprised but then thats human nature i guess.

Oberon are you single?!


----------



## StinkiPinki (25 November 2011)

TigerTail said:



			Lmao are you serious??! Of course it says so on NAFs website..... Have you also looked at the amount per mg and then that per weight of horse....?

 Yes of course it does have some vits and mins, you'd blinking well hope so really! However what it also contains is a lot of crap and irritants!

As for Vit C, oranges are high in this, bitter orange is different to normal oranges and is used as a stimulant - not what im looking for in a balancer.


Those who are saying you'd still feed it, fine you are at least making an informed decision, im surprised but then thats human nature i guess.

Oberon are you single?!  

Click to expand...

Thanks for admitting to the vits and mins,and amino acids strange the poster didnt include them in their breakdown , hey? ... LOL 
Damm good product with super results on so many different horses, cant say enough good things about it really


----------



## Oberon (25 November 2011)

StinkiPinki said:



			Hmmm.. what you omit to write here is that Pink Powder also has absolutely loads of vits and mins and is also packed with amino acids (check it out on the NAF website, its all there) Orange peel is extremely high in natural vitamin C , surprised you didnt know this?!

SP
		
Click to expand...

Horses don't require supplementation of Vit C. They make it themselves. They also don't often require most vitamins or amino acids when they have access to sunlight and forage.

Minerals they do need, but the rates in PP (and most commercial products) aren't balanced or high enough to be therapeutic.


----------



## LisW (25 November 2011)

Saint_Knickerless said:



			I have read it and that is all very well but i know that my mare has done wonders on it.
		
Click to expand...

Mine too!


----------



## Pearlsasinger (25 November 2011)

I wonder if this thread could be considered to be (not so) stealth advertising by a new member?

Cynical, me........?


----------



## Oberon (25 November 2011)

Pearlsasinger said:



			I wonder if this thread could be considered to be (not so) stealth advertising by a new member?

Cynical, me........?
		
Click to expand...

I can guarantee you 100% that it won't be the maker of Pro Hoof. They have a policy of not going on forums.


----------



## TigerTail (25 November 2011)

Lol Im not intending to promote one product over another in that sense - Iv been asked what Id use instead so I've said. I only did the break down bit because someone asked why I dislike it so thought Id explain.


----------



## Poppys Nannan (25 November 2011)

Thanks Tigerstail for the excellent informative thread and as you rightly point out, it enables people make informed decisions.


Many many thanks x x


----------



## MerrySherryRider (25 November 2011)

I feed Mag Ox but use Pink powder when one is stressed or on antibiotics and had very good results.
 Not generally a fan of Naf products, but Pink powder is pretty useful.


----------



## Firewell (25 November 2011)

Tbf I'm really not worried about the 'fillers' maize or weatfeed that will be included in one minute scoop. It's like me licking once a corner of a chocolate bar and saying all the bad things in the chocolate will harm me.

I've just swapped from Baileys lo cal balancer to Pink powder so it will be interesting to see if I notice any difference in my horse as he normally does very well on the lo cal but PP is cheaper and means he doesn't have such a big feed.

What would you say about the ingredients in Baileys lo cal balancer baring in mind it is aimed at laminitics?


----------



## millitiger (25 November 2011)

If you look into most balancers they contain fillers/flavouring etc so I think this is a bit of hysteria over nothing.

It certainly won't put me off feeding Pink Powder to my 2 horses, it is doing a fab job


----------



## TigerTail (25 November 2011)

Firewell - ive just had a quick glance at their website and it contains molasses - NO GOOD FOR LAMI arrrrggghhhh!!!!!!! 

Distillers grains could be anything, Im anally retentive as to what goes into my horse (in case anyone hadnt guessed!) so would have to email and ask what exactly that was but its going to be cereal based.

Soya is a no no for me, links to metabolic issues and you have to know its source to know if its GM free.

Calcined magnesite is an interesting one - if i remember correctly thats a fertiliser you have to put with lime?! Oberon might know?

Im not sure why they would include grassmeal in a balancer? Presumably the horse is getting grass in one form or another so adding a bit in the balancer makes little sense but shouldnt cause harm.


----------



## TigerTail (25 November 2011)

millitiger said:



			If you look into most balancers they contain fillers/flavouring etc so I think this is a bit of hysteria over nothing.
		
Click to expand...

See that attitude to me is just not good enough where MY horse is concerned, same goes for the licking the chocolate bar analysis, I want the very damn best I can possibly manage for her. I am OTT about feed having had hoof issues in the past and knowing that their feet are a direct result of what you feed them etc so have done all this research for my own horse.

If people are happy to feed it once they know what theyre buying thats their choice.

Its certainly not hysteria - thats a ridiculously emotive word for what was meant to be an informative post!


----------



## Oberon (25 November 2011)

firewell said:



			Tbf I'm really not worried about the 'fillers' maize or weatfeed that will be included in one minute scoop. It's like me licking once a corner of a chocolate bar and saying all the bad things in the chocolate will harm me.

I've just swapped from Baileys lo cal balancer to Pink powder so it will be interesting to see if I notice any difference in my horse as he normally does very well on the lo cal but PP is cheaper and means he doesn't have such a big feed.

What would you say about the ingredients in Baileys lo cal balancer baring in mind it is aimed at laminitics?
		
Click to expand...

Bailey's Lo Cal.....Wheat feed (good for putting weight on horses), grass meal (not even sure what that is?), molasses (erm!), micronised soya beans (for a laminitic..why?), calcium carbonate (limestone flour - very cheap to buy), calcined magnesite (cheapest version of magnesium), distillers grains (what? for a laminitic???), sodium chloride (salt cheaper), Vitamins and minerals (ok but at what levels and balanced to what), digest prebiotic (but we don't know what it is)

The take home message here (broken record time) is that feed manufacturers LIE (or at least 'play with the truth' and mix the same ingredients in each 'new' and 'special' feed. These ingredients are often cheaper to buy from other sources and mix yourself.

There is no magic feed and no magic ingredient.

I'm often amazed by how healthy horses are, even with the diets they're fed. (I am as guilty of this as anyone - I've fed some crap in my time 
	
	
		
		
	


	




)

I've gone back to 'the old days' of feeding straights but with the modern twist of forage analysis and I'm so impressed with the results.

For horses that don't like feed that isn't covered in artificial sweeteners or molasses - there are things like fenugreek, dried mint, or even just Tesco's curry powder that are super cheap and still healthy for the horse.


----------



## TigerTail (25 November 2011)

*bows down to Oberon*


----------



## ChesnutsRoasting (25 November 2011)

I feed Pink Powder to my mare when she goes onto spring grass - prevents her depositing sloppy doos and trapped wind. I recently recommended it to a fellow livery and she has noticed her horses poo is much improved eek and no longer contains comparatively large pieces of undigested grain. The proof of the feeding is in the hooves and my horse has lovely feet. So there.


----------



## Oberon (25 November 2011)

TigerTail said:



			*bows down to Oberon* 

Click to expand...

Not necessary. I share your frustration with feed companies

However wish to point out that Pink Powder is the lesser of many other evils.

Don't get me started on alfalfa 
	
	
		
		
	


	





There is a sticky on the UKNHCP forum where people list feed ingredients 
http://uknhcp.myfastforum.org/about1218.html if anyone interested.


----------



## Oberon (25 November 2011)

blazingsaddles said:



			I feed Pink Powder to my mare when she goes onto spring grass - prevents her depositing sloppy doos and trapped wind. I recently recommended it to a fellow livery and she has noticed her horses poo is much improved eek and no longer contains comparatively large pieces of undigested grain. The proof of the feeding is in the hooves and my horse has lovely feet. So there.

Click to expand...

That would be the brewer's yeast £4.00 for 900g
Pink Powder is £14.99 for 700g


----------



## ChesnutsRoasting (25 November 2011)

Oberon said:



			That would be the brewer's yeast £4.00 for 900g
Pink Powder is £14.99 for 700g 

Click to expand...

But I would miss the pretty packaging and the sweet ickle spoon that comes with it.


----------



## Natch (25 November 2011)

Playing devil's advocate...



TigerTail said:



Maize - a cereal which horses arent designed to digest. Low in fibre,high in starch, the opposite of what we want to be feeding horses.[/COLOR]

Hmmm whilst they weren't evolved to digest any cereals, they can do, especially in the form and quantities fed in pink powder.
Whey protein powder - whey its whats left over from dairy products, something else horses arent designed to eat. Yes it has protein content so good in that sense but again not something id expect to feed to a horse and not have digestive issues. No real benefit.[/COLOR]

Again, not evolved to eat this but there are studies that suggest that the horse is able to digest a small amount of milk product.
Whey Powder - See whey protein powder above, listed a second time to pad out the ingredients list?! Same problems now doubled!

No problems if you don't mind the fact that you're feeding your horse something they weren't evolved to, but can, eat. Which plenty of people do feed 

Wheat Protein - similar problem to whey, though this at least obtained from a plant not dairy - but that plant is a cereal. Higher in protein than Maize.

Again, evolved vs can eat... and in these quantities this just wouldn't concern me personally.


As always READ THE LABELS and do your own research into what you want to spend your money on and what you think is going to best help your horse.

 PS the above all applies to your dog food.......

And some might argue most importantly into your own food! 
[/COLOR]
		
Click to expand...




nuttychestnutmare said:



			I've spent most of this week looking up different multivitamins/supplements for horses and trying to work out which would be best to feed in terms of rda's and other things.  

which makes do you prefer? 

Click to expand...

I know you're not asking me, but if you're wanting to make sure your horse is receiving the right levels of vitamins and minerals you're better off for peace of mind and quite often financially, getting your forage analysed and supplimenting only those which need it. As Oberon says:



Oberon said:



			it's not about one magic ingredient, it's about looking at the whole diet.
		
Click to expand...




Oberon said:



			Minerals they do need, but the rates in PP (and most commercial products) aren't balanced or high enough to be therapeutic.
		
Click to expand...

This I can vouch for, I did an in-depth case study on a mare recently who was supplemented with Pink Powder. Her combined grass + forage + feed + pink powder mineral levels were horrendously imbalanced, and in quite a few cases not meeting minimum requirements. Changing the amount of Pink Powder fed did not significantly improve matters.



Oberon said:



			Don't get me started on alfalfa
		
Click to expand...

*Pokes Oberon a bit* .. I have an aversion to alfalfa, so would love to hear your thoughts on it to see if I have similar thinking to you!


----------



## Oberon (25 November 2011)

blazingsaddles said:



			But I would miss the pretty packaging and the sweet ickle spoon that comes with it.

Click to expand...








Would just like to add that I'm bitching about feed companies.....while drinking a bottle of Chocolate Shop red wine (that's red wine with EXTRA sugar and made to taste like chocolate 
	
	
		
		
	


	




 WHILE eating a kebab and chips


----------



## fizzer (25 November 2011)

Funny how we are so anal about what about our animals eat, we humans then eat any old tosh!!!


----------



## ChesnutsRoasting (25 November 2011)

Oberon said:









Would just like to add that I'm bitching about feed companies.....while drinking a bottle of Chocolate Shop red wine (that's red wine with EXTRA sugar and made to taste like chocolate 
	
	
		
		
	


	




 WHILE eating a kebab and chips 
	
	
		
		
	


	









Click to expand...

Sounds like heaven Enjoy!


----------



## henryhorn (25 November 2011)

The only thing I will say in reply is one thing..It appears to work...!
We feed it and it's been brilliant at getting weight on horses who lose condition. 
If you read all the feedsack and supplement labels it's highly likely you will find something you don't approve of. Me, I prefer to look at the condition of the horses we have, that's the true test.


----------



## Sussexbythesea (25 November 2011)

Oberon said:









Would just like to add that I'm bitching about feed companies.....while drinking a bottle of Chocolate Shop red wine (that's red wine with EXTRA sugar and made to taste like chocolate 
	
	
		
		
	


	




 WHILE eating a kebab and chips 
	
	
		
		
	


	









Click to expand...

We all know it doesn't matter what we eat as long as our precious ponies have the best 

I've had a packet of Nik Naks a packet of Quavers and some lemon drizzle cake for dinner washed down with red wine.


----------



## TigerTail (25 November 2011)

Lol Oberon sounds like a good fri night!

Devils Advocate ( your name was too long to remember!) on your point about evolved to eat Vs can eat - since introducing man made products et al into the horses diet we've seen a huge rise in metabolic syndrome and the like. I for one cannot afford the vets bills and trauma that goes with that so keep things as natural as I can manage in the hopes of not perpetuating a well known issue.

Its the same as humans who eat mcdonalds all the time then end up with diabetes etc.

For me, im my horses voice and I want perfection - I realise that isnt always possible so I do my damndest to make sure I strive for it everyday!


----------



## samlf (25 November 2011)

Hmm interesting read! I am just about to run out of pink powder, what would the best alternative to be (especially for a horse with slightly 'sloppy' poo!)?
Would it be the pro hoof supplement+ yea-sacc? would she also need a vitamin/mineral supplement or would this be supplied by the pro hoof?


----------



## Oberon (25 November 2011)

samlf said:



			Hmm interesting read! I am just about to run out of pink powder, what would the best alternative to be (especially for a horse with slightly 'sloppy' poo!)?
Would it be the pro hoof supplement+ yea-sacc? would she also need a vitamin/mineral supplement or would this be supplied by the pro hoof?
		
Click to expand...

The main, helpful, ingredients of PP are brewer's yeast and magnesium. Brewer's yeast is just a bacteria aid for the gut and magnesium is essential for over 300 actions in the body.
These are available much cheaper elsewhere than NAF.
I've actually abandoned Brewer's Yeast in favour of Yea-sacc (more expensive but I use less of it) after supplies of BY became sporadic last year.

Re Pro Hoof, it has a digestive aid in it and it's designed to be fed alongside forage as a complete diet. Just mix it into something neutral (like Fast Fibre or unmolassed beet or a hay/straw chaff) and that should be all you need.
If you want more shine for the coat (as well as gut muculage and joint health) then add micronised linseed - wonderful stuff. All the goodness of Dr Green without the sugar


----------



## samlf (25 November 2011)

Oberon said:



			The main, helpful, ingredients of PP are brewer's yeast and magnesium. Brewer's yeast is just a bacteria aid for the gut and magnesium is essential for over 300 actions in the body.
These are available much cheaper elsewhere than NAF.
I've actually abandoned Brewer's Yeast in favour of Yea-sacc (more expensive but I use less of it) after supplies of BY became sporadic last year.

Re Pro Hoof, it has a digestive aid in it and it's designed to be fed alongside forage as a complete diet. Just mix it into something neutral (like Fast Fibre or unmolassed beet or a hay/straw chaff) and that should be all you need.
If you want more shine for the coat (as well as gut muculage and joint health) then add micronised linseed - wonderful stuff. All the goodness of Dr Green without the sugar

Click to expand...

That's great thanks very much! So the best option would be the pro hoof+ micronised linseed (she is quite poor at the moment so definitely needs some form of conditioning feed), and the digestive aid in the pro hoof should mean I wont need to add extra probiotic?


----------



## TigerTail (25 November 2011)

Bingo


----------



## Oberon (25 November 2011)

samlf said:



			That's great thanks very much! So the best option would be the pro hoof+ micronised linseed (she is quite poor at the moment so definitely needs some form of conditioning feed), and the digestive aid in the pro hoof should mean I wont need to add extra probiotic?
		
Click to expand...

I'd imagine so but you are welcome to add BY or Yea-sacc alongside. That won't do any harm at all.

If she's poor then Fast Fibre and unmolassed beet would put weight on (slowly) without messing up her gut. Please try to avoid alfalfa if possible
If energy is required, then a small cup of oats would help (don't worry, it won't send her nuts).


----------



## Echo Bravo (25 November 2011)

Makes you wonder how horses survived before all this rubbish was put in front of us. Did use seaweed supplement for a while and stopped, guess what my horses coats are still as shiney and they haven't changed at all in their behaviour.


----------



## skint1 (25 November 2011)

Our boy is on Pink Powder, maybe i will switch him on to brewer's yeast instead?


----------



## Fahrenheit (25 November 2011)

henryhorn said:



			The only thing I will say in reply is one thing..It appears to work...!
We feed it and it's been brilliant at getting weight on horses who lose condition. 
If you read all the feedsack and supplement labels it's highly likely you will find something you don't approve of. Me, I prefer to look at the condition of the horses we have, that's the true test.
		
Click to expand...

I agree with this.
Having seen the difference Pink Powders made to a mare the vet diagnosed with IBS (who had to have most her tail cut off to help keep her clean her diarrhoea was so bad!) but couldn't have the necessary treatment because she was infoal, I will carry on using it! By the time she could have the treatment the vet was so impressed with her progress since she was on Pink Powders, he told us to carry on with them and he wouldn;t give her steriods unless she went down hill again. I am not a big supplement person. In my feed room you'll find electrolytes, Pink Powders and maybe some oil and thats it!


----------



## horseandshoes77 (25 November 2011)

Well havent read all the replys but i have used this for few months and noticed a good diff after use but then found a good cheaper source to buy the ingredience in ur black column lol...brewers yeast msm in pure form etc and since feeding these its cheaper and same good results.


----------



## scrunchie (25 November 2011)

Oberon said:



			Not necessary. I share your frustration with feed companies

However wish to point out that Pink Powder is the lesser of many other evils.

Don't get me started on alfalfa 
	
	
		
		
	


	





There is a sticky on the UKNHCP forum where people list feed ingredients 
http://uknhcp.myfastforum.org/about1218.html if anyone interested.
		
Click to expand...

Thanks for the link. Verrrry interesting.


----------



## TGM (25 November 2011)

henryhorn said:



			The only thing I will say in reply is one thing..It appears to work...!
We feed it and it's been brilliant at getting weight on horses who lose condition. 
If you read all the feedsack and supplement labels it's highly likely you will find something you don't approve of. Me, I prefer to look at the condition of the horses we have, that's the true test.
		
Click to expand...

Agree with this!  Must say that I used to be a Pink Powder cynic, but having seen other's results with it, I eventually used it and was very pleased with the results.  Found it particularly useful when one horse went off his feed last winter after hunting - a couple of weeks of Pink Powder soon had him eating up everything again and back to good condition.

Must say I do sense a bit of hysteria in the OP's post - things like saying that wheatfeed is 'sweepings off the floor' is just designed to panic and worry novice owners without any true justification.  There is a huge difference between being a by-product of another food production process, and being any old rubbish from the factory floor!

That said, I do agree with some comments made about the marketing of many horse feeds - lots of glib, fuzzy statements being bandied about and a lack of real facts and figures.  But that may be said of many of the 'alternative' feed/supplement providers as well!


----------



## burtie (25 November 2011)

Oberon said:



			If you want more shine for the coat (as well as gut muculage and joint health) then add micronised linseed - wonderful stuff. All the goodness of Dr Green without the sugar

Click to expand...

Interestingly I swapped by plain basic cheap supermarket oil for micronised linseed as I felt it must be better being 'designed' for horses and in fact his poo's got very sloppy and he didn't have as much energy or shine. I changed back to his cheap old oil and it took about 1 week but he's now back to normal!


----------



## Monkers (25 November 2011)

Oberon said:



			Not necessary. I share your frustration with feed companies

However wish to point out that Pink Powder is the lesser of many other evils.

Don't get me started on alfalfa 
	
	
		
		
	


	





There is a sticky on the UKNHCP forum where people list feed ingredients 
http://uknhcp.myfastforum.org/about1218.html if anyone interested.
		
Click to expand...



I would be interested to read what you think of alfalfa. I too am uncomfortable with the rise in popularity of this product over the last few years. There are lots of people who sing the praises of it on here, simple systems products come to mind, but when all's said and done it isn't what horses have evolved to eat.


----------



## FairyLights (25 November 2011)

I've been feeding horses for nearly 50 years We used to be taught to feed hay,oats and chaff. the chaff was home made ,50% hay and 50% oat straw. We used to be taught not to add molasses, molasses was used ,in the past,to disguise poor quality,even moldy food, to make the animal eat it. So, in a good yard it was a big no-no. If horses lost weight due to the work load or the cold weather they were rugged [if cold] and fed boiled barley and boiled linseed,which is very oily. both are more calorific,and being boiled,the barley more readily digestible. I still feed my horses according to these guidelines but in winter only add a vit and min supplement, in order to give the supplement something to "stick "to,so the powder doesnt get blown away, I add a small handful of damp bran. A horse needs something succulent everyday,this can be grass [turn out to pasture for a few hours] or some soaked sugar beet shreds or carrots/swede/turnip.  there is no need to buy expensive "mixes" or nuts with all sorts of preservatives and goodness knows what added. Invest in a chaff cutter,make your own chaff to bulk out the straights and feed according to work load.Its not rocket science.


----------



## Poppys Nannan (25 November 2011)

Would love to hear about alfalfa please x go on Oberon spill x


----------



## Oberon (25 November 2011)

I know my horse improved when taken off it.

It's not a natural feed for a horse. I wouldn't serve a plateful of peas - why serve up alfalfa?

Too high in calcium for my forage (which is also high in calcium but balanced to a high phosphorous).

Reports of hives and aggitation in horses from feeding it.


----------



## Oberon (25 November 2011)

Horsesforever1 said:



			I've been feeding horses for nearly 50 years We used to be taught to feed hay,oats and chaff. the chaff was home made ,50% hay and 50% oat straw. We used to be taught not to add molasses, molasses was used ,in the past,to disguise poor quality,even moldy food, to make the animal eat it. So, in a good yard it was a big no-no. If horses lost weight due to the work load or the cold weather they were rugged [if cold] and fed boiled barley and boiled linseed,which is very oily. both are more calorific,and being boiled,the barley more readily digestible. I still feed my horses according to these guidelines but in winter only add a vit and min supplement, in order to give the supplement something to "stick "to,so the powder doesnt get blown away, I add a small handful of damp bran. A horse needs something succulent everyday,this can be grass [turn out to pasture for a few hours] or some soaked sugar beet shreds or carrots/swede/turnip.  there is no need to buy expensive "mixes" or nuts with all sorts of preservatives and goodness knows what added. Invest in a chaff cutter,make your own chaff to bulk out the straights and feed according to work load.Its not rocket science.
		
Click to expand...








But where do I find a chaff cutter


----------



## MissMistletoe (25 November 2011)

Oberon said:









But where do I find a chaff cutter

Click to expand...

Check out Ebay, Ive watched a few to see how much they tend to go for. They were 'project chaff cutters' that needed a bit of TLC after being dug out of an old barn, or there were some ready to go ones.

Forgot to check how much they went for in the end, but i dont think it wouldve been a lot!.


----------



## Chestnuttymare (25 November 2011)

What an interesting read. I am a bit cynical when it comes to some of the supplements but I do use NAF Oestress. I have done for some years as she seems to be quite uncomfortable when in season and her seasons are hardly noticeable when on Oestress. I am curious to find out what you think of the make up of it. Just if you don't mind.  x

Aromatic and appetising herbs, Products of tubers and roots, Calcined magnesite (Mg 75,000 mg/kg), Products of fruits, Oil seeds, Saccharomyces cerevisiae (CBS 493.94. 3.3x106cfu/g), Hydrolysed lecithins, Methionine, Vitamin B2 (114 mg/kg), Flavour (Vanilla). 

unfortunately it doesn't give details of which 'smelly and tasty herbs'


----------



## criso (25 November 2011)

I'm not necessarily a fan of balancers and additives and prefer to feed the specific minerals my horse needs but in NAFs defence I think there are a couple of points that need to be taken into consideration.

1) There will be additives in there to make it tasty as most owners are not going to keep feeding something their horse won't touch or add herbs to it to get it down.   The quantities you feed are unlikely to cause major problems.  If it's not palatable most owners won't buy it.

2) Any commercial mix may need something to bind all the ingredients and keep them even all the way through the tub so each scoop has the same proportion of ingredients in it.

What I do find interesting is how  many different mixes for different problems have similar ingredients.  It looks like Oestress has Yeast and a form of magnesium and Naf magic is another that has magnesium and brewer's yeast as core ingredients.

2 things I buy in bulk and cost pennies to feed


----------



## chestnut cob (25 November 2011)

festnuttyfairy said:



			What an interesting read. I am a bit cynical when it comes to some of the supplements but I do use NAF Oestress. I have done for some years as she seems to be quite uncomfortable when in season and her seasons are hardly noticeable when on Oestress. I am curious to find out what you think of the make up of it. Just if you don't mind.  x

Aromatic and appetising herbs, Products of tubers and roots, Calcined magnesite (Mg 75,000 mg/kg), Products of fruits, Oil seeds, Saccharomyces cerevisiae (CBS 493.94. 3.3x106cfu/g), Hydrolysed lecithins, Methionine, Vitamin B2 (114 mg/kg), Flavour (Vanilla). 

unfortunately it doesn't give details of which 'smelly and tasty herbs'
		
Click to expand...

Aromatic and appetising herbs - I think it is mainly Agnus Castus, which you can buy straight and feed more of for less money (there isn't much of it in Oestress)
CalMag (you can buy that cheap and straight from a farm shop - I think it's designed for cows... better off feeding straight, pure magnesium oxide)
Oil seeds - maybe rape oil, veg oil, something like that.  I'd rather feed straight linseed.
Sac. Cerv... Brewer's yeast (edited!)
Not sure what the next two are without googling
Vit B12... you can get that from feeding Brewer's Yeast

Why on earth it contains vanilla flavouring I don't know!

NAF Oestress is OK (I had reasonable results with it) but it's basically the seeds of a plant known to help regulate periods in women (look up chaste berry) plus magnesium (calming effect), a live yeast to aid digestion, and some vitamins.


----------



## Oberon (25 November 2011)

festnuttyfairy said:



			What an interesting read. I am a bit cynical when it comes to some of the supplements but I do use NAF Oestress. I have done for some years as she seems to be quite uncomfortable when in season and her seasons are hardly noticeable when on Oestress. I am curious to find out what you think of the make up of it. Just if you don't mind.  x

Aromatic and appetising herbs, Products of tubers and roots, Calcined magnesite (Mg 75,000 mg/kg), Products of fruits, Oil seeds, Saccharomyces cerevisiae (CBS 493.94. 3.3x106cfu/g), Hydrolysed lecithins, Methionine, Vitamin B2 (114 mg/kg), Flavour (Vanilla). 

unfortunately it doesn't give details of which 'smelly and tasty herbs'
		
Click to expand...

Your active ingredients are Saccharmyces cerevisae (brewer's yeast) and calcined magnesite (the cheapest and least pure form of magnesium)....so basically the same as PP...you do have methionine (an amino acid) but I'm not excited by it.
Horses have no requirement to supplement vit b

Ingredients much cheaper elsewhere.


----------



## whisp&willow (25 November 2011)

interesting read...  ive never used pp, never had to, but a friend has, and it made a huge difference to her mare.

while i understand that feed companies "bend" the truth, and are not very saintly, and i understand that diet and nutrition is a vital part of overall health, i find it so strange that one of my horses has made it to 40 yrs old (and still going...), worked very hard, and never had a day lame in her life (well the 10 + years we've had her). ive never had a horse with lami or any digestive or other problems?

my horses have always had molassed sugarbeet, been out at grass 24/7, been fed alfalfa/any old chaff and a variety of differing mixes/feeds?  (shoot me down...!  )

perhaps the only reason they havn't succumb to the perils of my feeding is that they are good doers so get little feed my comparisson to many, and are living by and large on grass and hay?

(not a jibe at anyone-  just my thoughts and musings.  )


----------



## jhoward (25 November 2011)

I dont thing tigertail was telling people not to use such a product, more that if you fed straights that are redyily avalible you would be a lot better off and your horse would also be better for it, 

I dont think it is in question about the product working the point was if you took out all of the crap that makes up a pot you would see that the prime ingrediants that actully make a difference to a conditon are minimal compared to the amount of crap added in to bulk it out. 

A horse recently came onto my yard, he is a vetran with known health issues, the old owner was feeding a hoof supplement, a vetran supplement and a joint supplement, all 3 were a HIGH price. when a friend and i sat and went through ingrediants, to ratios it was appaling, the vetran supplement its self was a shocker.. 54 quid for a tub.. ment to boost immune system.. yet it contained all the things the horse would eat in a field! 

then when you looked into for example the hoof supplemt the main ingrediant was calcium.. well not main, but the ingrediant that had the highest GRAM/kg of horse. and it wasnt actully that high! (horse still has appaling feet )

as the op said , most supplements are bulked out nothing to do with the horse, but to make us as a buyer feel better!


----------



## Chestnuttymare (25 November 2011)

that's brilliant, thanks. The only other sup that i feed is magnesium and i used to feed brewers yeast. I think i will try it in the spring rather than the oestress. that is brilliant, I did wonder but wasn't sure what i would have to feed instead. great help thanks again x


----------



## Natch (25 November 2011)

Oberon said:



			Would just like to add that I'm bitching about feed companies.....while drinking a bottle of Chocolate Shop red wine (that's red wine with EXTRA sugar and made to taste like chocolate 
	
	
		
		
	


	




 WHILE eating a kebab and chips 
	
	
		
		
	


	









Click to expand...

And where the FUG is my invite?! 



TigerTail said:



			Devils Advocate ( your name was too long to remember!) on your point about evolved to eat Vs can eat - since introducing man made products et al into the horses diet we've seen a huge rise in metabolic syndrome and the like. I for one cannot afford the vets bills and trauma that goes with that so keep things as natural as I can manage in the hopes of not perpetuating a well known issue.

Its the same as humans who eat mcdonalds all the time then end up with diabetes etc.

For me, im my horses voice and I want perfection - I realise that isnt always possible so I do my damndest to make sure I strive for it everyday!
		
Click to expand...

I think I might just change my name to Devil's advocate, like the sound of that  

You can't justify singling out man-made products as the cause of metabolic syndrome etc. Over the same time period many changes have been made to the way we manage horses. I personally feel that the change in the species seen in our pastures and the obsession with fertilising and having "condition" on a horse is more to blame than man made products. 

Don't get me wrong, I'm a big believer myself in feeding the way nature intended, but I think its misleading to spread worry about the presence of cereals in a feed supplement which is fed in such small quantities. The RDA of pink powder is most certainly NOT the equivalent of a human eating McDonalds all the time. Horses on seedy grass will take in more starch in an hour than from a scoop of that. As TGM says, the product is *not *literally "floor sweepings" and I think the language you are using is misleading and panicking people unnecessarily.



burtie said:



			Interestingly I swapped by plain basic cheap supermarket oil for micronised linseed as I felt it must be better being 'designed' for horses and in fact his poo's got very sloppy and he didn't have as much energy or shine. I changed back to his cheap old oil and it took about 1 week but he's now back to normal!
		
Click to expand...

Just out of interest, did you change it over gradually?


----------



## EquestrianFairy (26 November 2011)

Would/does blue chip give the horse a better balance than pink powder then?


----------



## Ranyhyn (26 November 2011)

I have to judge by results and my horse is blooming - my horses have always done well on it, no adverse effects so I'll keep feeding it.


----------



## Ranyhyn (26 November 2011)

henryhorn said:



			If you read all the feedsack and supplement labels it's highly likely you will find something you don't approve of. Me, I prefer to look at the condition of the horses we have, that's the true test.
		
Click to expand...

Someone who put it so much better than me... baaa


----------



## MrsMozart (26 November 2011)

Oh blast.

I have a laminitic/mild Cushings veteran pony and a 'easily pile on the weight' semi-retired eight year old cob - just moved them both onto Bailey's Lo-Cal Balancer... Going to have to review that one!

And I have a stress head thirteen year old mare, who is extremely sensitive to sugars, and a dingbat DWB seven year old mare - just moved them onto Top Spec Balancer... 

They're on a yard, so not able to alter the grazing at all. How do I get a forage analysis? 

My brain is not at all scientific (understatement!), so I'll have to rope in D1 to help guide and explain it all I think 

Having seen Grey Mare's reaction to sugars, I'm now very wary of what goes into my horses, but obviously I haven't been wary enough!

Thank you for the thread OP, and all the information everyone has put forward


----------



## Natch (26 November 2011)

MrsMozartletoe said:



			Oh blast.

I have a laminitic/mild Cushings veteran pony and a 'easily pile on the weight' semi-retired eight year old cob - just moved them both onto Bailey's Lo-Cal Balancer... Going to have to review that one!

And I have a stress head thirteen year old mare, who is extremely sensitive to sugars, and a dingbat DWB seven year old mare - just moved them onto Top Spec Balancer... 

They're on a yard, so not able to alter the grazing at all. How do I get a forage analysis? 

My brain is not at all scientific (understatement!), so I'll have to rope in D1 to help guide and explain it all I think 

Having seen Grey Mare's reaction to sugars, I'm now very wary of what goes into my horses, but obviously I haven't been wary enough!

Thank you for the thread OP, and all the information everyone has put forward 

Click to expand...



A forage analysis, interpretation and feed plans are available from a few different companies, although I prefer to use the ones who I feel both know what they are talking about and don't represent a particular brand. http://www.forageplus.com/ is the one I use and would recommend, Sarah Braithwaite is really helpful and explains things for mere mortals


----------



## eatmoremincepies (26 November 2011)

Got fed up with paying for vits and mins we don't need (let alone the rest of the ingredients).

So had a hay analysis done and a nutritionist (independent) work out what we actually needed to supplement our hay.  We have plenty of iron, not enough copper, zinc, magensium or manganese.  Ordered copper sulphate, zinc sulphate etc separately and made up a mix using recipe given by nutritionist - costs £6 per horse per month.   Feeds make up the protein carbs etc that hay doesn't give (straights).  Already made a big difference to energy levels and topline - after feeding Baileys No4, TopSpec etc for ages!  Would not go back to marketed feeds/supps.

Did anyone see Food Hospital, the woman who had bene living on chocolate and pancakes because anything else made her sick?   To look at her you'd think she was maybe a bit thin, but you wouldn't look twice at her in the street - turned out she was seriously malnourished. 

Starting to think that just the "look" of a horse does not necessarily tell us that much - for months people have been telling me how good my oldie looks on the Baileys etc - they can't believe how much better he looks now.


----------



## burtie (26 November 2011)

Just out of interest, did you change it over gradually?
		
Click to expand...

Yes very, mixed with the oil for a couple of weeks, gradually reducing the oil and increasing the linseed. It took we while to realise as he tends to be a bit sloppy on occaisions anyway (shows and excitement etc!)and it only got really bad when he was on the full linseed ration so I swapped him back with a couple of days using both and although it took about a week, he was then back to normal. I thought it mighty just be coincidence at first but now he's back and fine I'll stick with it!


----------



## Firewell (26 November 2011)

I just looked at one of human vitamin supplements I take and one of the ingredients is Talc! At least the horse isn't eating talcum powder..


----------

