# Interested in your view on this PTS debate..



## AShetlandBitMeOnce (13 December 2021)

So I have two elderly cats who are sisters at home (Pog and Mamf are their names), I believe they are about 20; I can't remember exactly and me and mum (who's cats they really are) have had several conversations about PTS and when to, which become quite heated. I am a better a day to soon person, and have much more exposure to having animals PTS, whereas mum is a lot more on the prolong side of the fence. We know their full history as we have had them since kittens. 

They are both arthritic and have visible limps, Pog lost a lot of weight and is now on thyroid meds every day (but has to have monthly blood tests with sedation to be on the meds) and Mamf is a good weight if slightly over. She has a hangy belly as they have always been fat cats, but I can feel her hips etc as you would a normal cat now. They both have Metacam daily, Mamf more so then Pog and they have YuMove supplement. The limps are still visible on these meds, but lessened by them. They both have bloodwork done every 6 months or so and they have excellent results on all functions/levels, the vet was really surprised in cats of this age. 

They are outside cats, but choose to sleep all day every day really. Mamf will wait at the bottom of the stairs now until someone comes to pick her up and carry her up them and does struggle, they just about jump on the bed with a small table put next to it as a step up, and can just about jump on the sofa. Mamf is now fed wherever she is lying to avoid her having to use the stairs. Pog is stilly pretty mobile but again, can't jump on the things she once would and is visibly stiff. 

If it were me I would have PTS due to the limp, especially as it's still there with pain meds - as to me a limp means the animal is in pain, and they don't know why. Whereas mum said they're just old, that's what happens and that we can continue carrying them up the stairs etc, that they still have a quality of life. 

Just interested in what your view on this would be?


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## Hepsibah (13 December 2021)

For me it would depend completely on the animal in question. I had a lovely Cavalier King Charles Spaniel who was obviously getting old and winding down. He was very slow, couldn't do steps in and out of the house, wasn't interested in walks any more and slept much more than before. I was okay with all of that because food still made him happy. That was always his greatest pleasure so as long as he got all perky and happy about dinner and treats I felt he still had meaningful quality of life. I called the vet as soon as he went off his food.


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## AShetlandBitMeOnce (13 December 2021)

Hepsibah said:



			For me it would depend completely on the animal in question. I had a lovely Cavalier King Charles Spaniel who was obviously getting old and winding down. He was very slow, couldn't do steps in and out of the house, wasn't interested in walks any more and slept much more than before. I was okay with all of that because food still made him happy. That was always his greatest pleasure so as long as he got all perky and happy about dinner and treats I felt he still had meaningful quality of life. I called the vet as soon as he went off his food.
		
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Completely fair - they have always historically been overweight. Pog will follow you round the house yelling for food and then may or may not eat it when you put it down, or will eat a little then wander off. Mamf will eat twice a day but will only come downstairs for it now if she is really hungry. Both will eat but they aren't what they once where, they'll both eat a treat with enthusiasm.


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## Cortez (13 December 2021)

This is timely for me, as my old (16 - 17yr old) cat has just started to limp and look a little old. I will have him put down the minute he starts to struggle; he's had a great life, but I won't keep an animal going that isn't able to enjoy life, and being in pain* is no fun for anyone.

*A limp means it hurts.


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## AShetlandBitMeOnce (13 December 2021)

Cortez said:



			This is timely for me, as my old (16 - 17yr old) cat has just started to limp and look a little old. I will have him put down the minute he starts to struggle; he's had a great life, but I won't keep an animal going that isn't able to enjoy life, and being in pain* is no fun for anyone.

*A limp means it hurts.
		
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I completely agree with this view, and to me a noticeable limp despite Metacam twice a day is too much pain to be living a happy life, nor is not wanting to go up or down the stairs. But I was told I was heartless for even suggesting it..


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## twiggy2 (13 December 2021)

If the cat wants to go up the stairs but doesn't I would say the pain is significant, feeding the cat where it is lying is also taking it too far for me.
An animal that feels pain all the time has very little quality of life at best IMO.


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## skinnydipper (13 December 2021)

Cortez said:



			This is timely for me, as my old (16 - 17yr old) cat has just started to limp and look a little old. I will have him put down the minute he starts to struggle; he's had a great life, but I won't keep an animal going that isn't able to enjoy life, and being in pain* is no fun for anyone.

*A limp means it hurts.
		
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Have you had a look at Solensia?  Monthly subcutaneous injection which, if your vet is happy for you to do so, you can administer yourself at home.


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## Cortez (13 December 2021)

skinnydipper said:



			Have you had a look at Solensia?  Monthly subcutaneous injection which, if your vet is happy for you to do so, you can administer yourself at home.
		
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Oh don't worry, he's a long way from the chop yet!


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## skinnydipper (13 December 2021)

Cortez said:



			This is timely for me, as my old (16 - 17yr old) cat has just started to limp and look a little old. I will have him put down the minute he starts to struggle; he's had a great life, but I won't keep an animal going that isn't able to enjoy life, and being in pain* is no fun for anyone.

*A limp means it hurts.
		
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If he has started to limp, and you feel he is in pain, Solensia may help.  It provides analgesia by reducing nerve growth factor in osteoarthritic joints.

https://www2.zoetis.co.uk/about-zoe...etmab-a-new-therapy-for-feline-osteoarthritis


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## Sussexbythesea (13 December 2021)

I’m not in the camp of putting an animal down too soon anymore than I’m in the camp of letting an animal suffer unduly. I think it’s very personal and totally down to the individual animal. Cats are not very good at faking being well when they’re not and you’ll soon know when they’ve had enough. 

People with arthritis still lead good lives and so can animals up to a point. I’m not sure that it is relevant that your mums cats sleep a lot and I agree old animals as well as people sleep more and do less it doesn’t mean they should die. 

I bet most of us live with a greater or lesser degree of pain especially as we get older but we don’t want to end our lives because of it.


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## AShetlandBitMeOnce (13 December 2021)

SussexbytheXmasTree said:



			I’m not in the camp of putting an animal down too soon anymore than I’m in the camp of letting an animal suffer unduly. I think it’s very personal and totally down to the individual animal. Cats are not very good at faking being well when they’re not and you’ll soon know when they’ve had enough.

People with arthritis still lead good lives and so can animals up to a point. I’m not sure that it is relevant that your mums cats sleep a lot and I agree old animals as well as people sleep more and do less it doesn’t mean they should die.

I bet most of us live with a greater or lesser degree of pain especially as we get older but we don’t want to end our lives because of it.
		
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The relevance of them sleeping a lot is me trying to say that they have never been cats that would roam for miles so they aren't missing out on that side of their quality of life. I should have said 'have always chosen to sleep all day everyday'.  I completely agree with you that I wouldn't rush to PTS a stiff elderly animal, but I am only considering it here as they are noticably lame despite being on the maximum amount of painkillers they can be, plus they will wait at the bottom of the stairs to be carried up, to me that says they aren't leading good lives, but long ones for the sake of it - and that is coming from someone who lives with arthritic hip pain.

I completely agree that it's super subjective, but I guess I am comparing it to a horse. If I had a horse that was 3-4/10ths lame bilaterally in front and stiff behinf, despite being on the maximum dose of bute, I would be looking at PTS.

ETA: I guess I just wanted to sound check on here as I want to just do the right thing by them, I have only ever had horses & dogs PTS and I know cats are very different animals of course. We haven't ever lost cats to old age before, as with our previous two, one was a victim of the road and another was shot by some yob. They have been my companions for 20+ years, I am desperately sad at the idea of losing them, even if my post may sound as though I am being emotionless about it.


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## Cortez (13 December 2021)

It doesn't sound that way at all. You are thinking about their feelings above your own.


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## Cortez (13 December 2021)

Double posted.


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## Sussexbythesea (13 December 2021)

AShetlandBitMeOnce said:



			The relevance of them sleeping a lot is me trying to say that they have never been cats that would roam for miles so they aren't missing out on that side of their quality of life. I should have said 'have always chosen to sleep all day everyday'.  I completely agree with you that I wouldn't rush to PTS a stiff elderly animal, but I am only considering it here as they are noticably lame despite being on the maximum amount of painkillers they can be, plus they will wait at the bottom of the stairs to be carried up, to me that says they aren't leading good lives, but long ones for the sake of it - and that is coming from someone who lives with arthritic hip pain.

I completely agree that it's super subjective, but I guess I am comparing it to a horse. If I had a horse that was 3-4/10ths lame bilaterally in front and stiff behinf, despite being on the maximum dose of bute, I would be looking at PTS.

ETA: I guess I just wanted to sound check on here as I want to just do the right thing by them, I have only ever had horses & dogs PTS and I know cats are very different animals of course. We haven't ever lost cats to old age before, as with our previous two, one was a victim of the road and another was shot by some yob. They have been my companions for 20+ years, I am desperately sad at the idea of losing them, even if my post may sound as though I am being emotionless about it.
		
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I don’t think you’re emotionless nor do I think it’s wrong to ask yourself and others these questions to help you get your thoughts straight. You’ll always get opinions that don’t necessarily chime exactly with yours which I guess is the purpose of forums and discussion to see other perspectives that may sometimes change what we think or confirm our thoughts.


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## SOS (13 December 2021)

I don’t think you can compare human and animal pain…
-They are a lot tougher than us and don’t like to show pain, so if they are making themselves vulnerable it’s normally quite bad. 
-They cannot complain/comment on pain like us, so you are picking up on their physical signs of pain which only show when it gets a bit more severe.
-They cannot choose whether to live or die, just endure.
-They dont have the emotional connection to life that we do. A cat does not hope it makes it until next Christmas so it sees Aunty Sally again.
-A cat wants to run and jump and be able to be safe (cat instincts tell them to stay up high and be nimble). It places a degree of stress on them knowing they can’t do that. A human cannot relate to this.

Amongst many other reasons.

I would ask your mum what she sees as the point where intervention is needed. Animals rarely pass away peacefully in their sleep. More often than not they are rushed down to the vets in a state of collapse or flatness as their bodies have truly given up. Even a heart attack during the night is hardly a peaceful death. Maybe your mum will then see that a decision has to be made at some point.


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## Gloi (13 December 2021)

I left my first cat too long when she was old and she died in the basket at the vets while we were waiting to have her pts. I had my elderly cat pts this summer when she started limping and losing weight. I could have kept her alive longer but it would have been for my benefit rather than hers. I will do the same if I am in that position again.
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## twiggy2 (13 December 2021)

SussexbytheXmasTree said:



			I’m not in the camp of putting an animal down too soon anymore than I’m in the camp of letting an animal suffer unduly. I think it’s very personal and totally down to the individual animal. Cats are not very good at faking being well when they’re not and you’ll soon know when they’ve had enough.

People with arthritis still lead good lives and so can animals up to a point. I’m not sure that it is relevant that your mums cats sleep a lot and I agree old animals as well as people sleep more and do less it doesn’t mean they should die.

I bet most of us live with a greater or lesser degree of pain especially as we get older but we don’t want to end our lives because of it.
		
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After seeing cats with horrendous injuries still managing and people around them not realising how severe things are I disagree cats can be masters at disguising pain and illness.
People living with pain can decide to take extra painkillers, put heat rubs in, take a hot bath etcetera etcetera a cat can't make those choices and take those actions.
I wouls also say that many people do want to end their lives because they are enduring pain (even with the a ility to take extra drugs to try and control the pain) many don't because they either can't or because of the hurt it will cause those left behind.
Animals do not know it is their last day and a trip to the vet for a cat that has monthly blood test under sedation would be a normal monthly visit.
I agree OP that you will get many different views, ultimately it sounds like you and your mum need to have some sit down chats about what to expect and when you can agree the time will be and try and come to a middle ground if you can.


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## AShetlandBitMeOnce (13 December 2021)

SOS said:



			I would ask your mum what she sees as the point where intervention is needed. Animals rarely pass away peacefully in their sleep. More often than not they are rushed down to the vets in a state of collapse or flatness as their bodies have truly given up. Even a heart attack during the night is hardly a peaceful death. Maybe your mum will then see that a decision has to be made at some point.
		
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I have tried to ask her this and she doesn't really have an answer, she just goes back to the fact that they have quality of life at the moment; she gets very emotional about it so it's difficult to have a rational conversation with her about it. I honestly think she's waiting for them to either have end stage kidney failure, or to stop eating or to physically collapse for her to make the decision, whereas imo that's way too late.

I disagree with a lot of the work that Noel Fitzpatrick does and I disagree with animals in wheelchairs, not to mention having a pragmatic view towards the life span of farm animals for example - whereas she is very prolong life at all costs to a point, so I think she sees me as a bit callous and heartless re: PTS decisions, so me addressing it at all gets her on the defence.


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## Sussexbythesea (13 December 2021)

SOS said:



			I don’t think you can compare human and animal pain…
-They are a lot tougher than us and don’t like to show pain, so if they are making themselves vulnerable it’s normally quite bad.
-They cannot complain/comment on pain like us, so you are picking up on their physical signs of pain which only show when it gets a bit more severe.
-They cannot choose whether to live or die, just endure.
-They dont have the emotional connection to life that we do. A cat does not hope it makes it until next Christmas so it sees Aunty Sally again.
-A cat wants to run and jump and be able to be safe (cat instincts tell them to stay up high and be nimble). It places a degree of stress on them knowing they can’t do that. A human cannot relate to this.

Amongst many other reasons.

I would ask your mum what she sees as the point where intervention is needed. Animals rarely pass away peacefully in their sleep. More often than not they are rushed down to the vets in a state of collapse or flatness as their bodies have truly given up. Even a heart attack during the night is hardly a peaceful death. Maybe your mum will then see that a decision has to be made at some point.
		
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I totally disagree with you on this. Pain is pain. IME you can tell if an animal is generally happy or content when you’ve looked after it all it’s life and that’s what I always base my decision on not some imaginary thought process the animal may or may not be going through based on human thought processes…

I don’t really believe animals hide pain any more than humans do especially predators.  Humans endure way more pain than animals ever have to IMO because we can’t choose euthanasia and most people’s instinct is to survive so taking ones own life is not easily achievable. 

I’ll make it clear none of my animals have ever been left to suffer - none!


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## SOS (13 December 2021)

AShetlandBitMeOnce said:



			I have tried to ask her this and she doesn't really have an answer, she just goes back to the fact that they have quality of life at the moment; she gets very emotional about it so it's difficult to have a rational conversation with her about it. I honestly think she's waiting for them to either have end stage kidney failure, or to stop eating or to physically collapse for her to make the decision, whereas imo that's way too late.

I disagree with a lot of the work that Noel Fitzpatrick does and I disagree with animals in wheelchairs, not to mention having a pragmatic view towards the life span of farm animals for example - whereas she is very prolong life at all costs to a point, so I think she sees me as a bit callous and heartless re: PTS decisions, so me addressing it at all gets her on the defence.
		
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I completely sympathise as I have the same issue with my mum. As you probably know I work within veterinary and I disagree too with pro life at any cost.

Have you considered a quality of life form with her? Doing them regularly can help people realise their pets QOL is declining.


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## AShetlandBitMeOnce (13 December 2021)

SussexbytheXmasTree said:



			IME you can tell if an animal is generally happy or content when you’ve looked after it all it’s life
		
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I think this is part of the difficulty here.. Mum justifies that they are happy because they sleep peacefully all day, they _can _get up/down the stairs if they absolutely need to, and they snuggle up with each other to sleep or have some fuss and are happy doing so, and I understand her point. But when the traditionally silent cat is meowing for me to pick her up to go to bed, and limping away across the kitchen, or sat looking outside through the door rather then use the cat flap more than is necessary (it has a step) I question how happy they really are.


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## Sussexbythesea (13 December 2021)

twiggy2 said:



			After seeing cats with horrendous injuries still managing and people around them not realising how severe things are I disagree cats can be masters at disguising pain and illness.
People living with pain can decide to take extra painkillers, put heat rubs in, take a hot bath etcetera etcetera a cat can't make those choices and take those actions.
I wouls also say that many people do want to end their lives because they are enduring pain (even with the a ility to take extra drugs to try and control the pain) many don't because they either can't or because of the hurt it will cause those left behind.
Animals do not know it is their last day and a trip to the vet for a cat that has monthly blood test under sedation would be a normal monthly visit.
I agree OP that you will get many different views, ultimately it sounds like you and your mum need to have some sit down chats about what to expect and when you can agree the time will be and try and come to a middle ground if you can.
		
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These are elderly cats though not with severe injuries. Mine always go very quiet and hide or don’t move. They don’t go around normal sleeping, eating and bimbling around when they’re poorly or in severe or significant pain.


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## AShetlandBitMeOnce (13 December 2021)

SOS said:



			Have you considered a quality of life form with her? Doing them regularly can help people realise their pets QOL is declining.
		
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I didn't realise this is a thing, I'll have a google - thank you


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## Cortez (13 December 2021)

SussexbytheXmasTree said:



			I totally disagree with you on this. Pain is pain. IME you can tell if an animal is generally happy or content when you’ve looked after it all it’s life and that’s what I always base my decision on not some imaginary thought process the animal may or may not be going through based on human thought processes…

I don’t really believe animals hide pain any more than humans do especially predators.  Humans endure way more pain than animals ever have to IMO because we can’t choose euthanasia and most people’s instinct is to survive so taking ones own life is not easily achievable.

I’ll make it clear none of my animals have ever been left to suffer - none!
		
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Hmm, no, don't agree. Having seen a horse apparently happily grazing whilst standing on it's own intestines after having disembowelled itself on a fence post, I'd say that animals are masters at masking pain. I passionately believe that it's better to be a day/week too early than a microsecond too late.


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## Sussexbythesea (13 December 2021)

AShetlandBitMeOnce said:



			I think this is part of the difficulty here.. Mum justifies that they are happy because they sleep peacefully all day, they _can _get up/down the stairs if they absolutely need to, and they snuggle up with each other to sleep or have some fuss and are happy doing so, and I understand her point. But when the traditionally silent cat is meowing for me to pick her up to go to bed, and limping away across the kitchen, or sat looking outside through the door rather then use the cat flap more than is necessary (it has a step) I question how happy they really are.
		
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It’s difficult as you are in the actual situation and some people do need help seeing the wood for the trees. It doesn’t sound as if the cats are at crisis point and hopefully SOS suggestion re the QOL questionnaire might be a good place to help your mum come to the right decision. I do have a friend who is afraid if death and therefore when her horse could hardly walk had to be persuaded to let him go even though it was obvious to everyone else it was time.


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## Sussexbythesea (13 December 2021)

Cortez said:



			Hmm, no, don't agree. Having seen a horse apparently happily grazing whilst standing on it's own intestines after having disembowelled itself on a fence post, I'd say that animals are masters at masking pain. I passionately believe that it's better to be a day/week too early than a microsecond too late.
		
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Obviously it was too late for that horse although he didn’t seem to be suffering …maybe he wasn’t? No nerve endings in bowels? 
Perhaps you should have had him shot the week before in case he disembowelled himself the following week?


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## Cortez (13 December 2021)

SussexbytheXmasTree said:



			Obviously it was too late for that horse although he didn’t seem to be suffering …maybe he wasn’t? No nerve endings in bowels?
Perhaps you should have had him shot the week before in case he disembowelled himself the following week?
		
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Wasn't mine, and you know that's a snarky and unnecessary comment.


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## Sussexbythesea (13 December 2021)

Cortez said:



			Wasn't mine, and you know that's a snarky and unnecessary comment.
		
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Well don’t use such an irrelevant example then.


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## SOS (13 December 2021)

SussexbytheXmasTree said:



			I totally disagree with you on this. Pain is pain. IME you can tell if an animal is generally happy or content when you’ve looked after it all it’s life and that’s what I always base my decision on not some imaginary thought process the animal may or may not be going through based on human thought processes…

I don’t really believe animals hide pain any more than humans do especially predators.  Humans endure way more pain than animals ever have to IMO because we can’t choose euthanasia and most people’s instinct is to survive so taking ones own life is not easily achievable.

I’ll make it clear none of my animals have ever been left to suffer - none!
		
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IME it’s been the complete opposite. Have you seen wildlife programmes where the broken leg zebra still desperately tries to act normal and keep up with the herd so it’s not preyed on for being weak? A human would not do that, we don’t need too. Unless we are in a zombie movie or similar.  

I have seen many animals in pain yet hiding it. Pelvis smashed to smithereens in cats still running around, dogs with their organs in their chest from a diaphragmatic hernia still wagging their tail and wanting to say hello, this doesn’t mean they don’t feel it, it means they are very good at hiding it. Hell, a few years ago I had a tooth root infection that rendered me unable to eat, talk or sleep despite max level cocodamol. Yet in practice almost everyday we would do dental on animals whose teeth fall out when we brush them. Hence why many years of research has gone into proving animals do feel pain to a great extent as once upon a time people believed they just didn’t.

We are so lucky that our veterinary and scientific research supports that animals can feel pain and therefore prolonged suffering is wrong. Yet pet owners still see growing old and lame and in pain as normal. (Unlike OP who sought ways to manage pain of their pet and is considered now it’s unmanaged whether or not QOL is still there).

I will always stand by that animals do feel pain, hide pain and it can never be underestimated. We must do all we can to keep them pain free including euthanasia.


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## Cortez (13 December 2021)

SussexbytheXmasTree said:



			Well don’t use such an irrelevant example then.
		
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How is that not relevant? There are countless similar examples, would you like to review them? The point has been eloquently put by several other people and there is scientific research on the subject.


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## I'm Dun (13 December 2021)

SussexbytheXmasTree said:



			It doesn’t sound as if the cats are at crisis point
		
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Surely the whole point is to avoid crisis point though?


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## ycbm (13 December 2021)

SussexbytheXmasTree said:



			I totally disagree with you on this. Pain is pain. IME you can tell if an animal is generally happy or content when you’ve looked after it all it’s life and that’s what I always base my decision on not some imaginary thought process the animal may or may not be going through based on human thought processes…

I don’t really believe animals hide pain any more than humans do especially predators.  Humans endure way more pain than animals ever have to IMO because we can’t choose euthanasia and most people’s instinct is to survive so taking ones own life is not easily achievable.

I’ll make it clear none of my animals have ever been left to suffer - none!
		
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I believe that there are now studies which show that cats can have severe arthritis before they start to limp,  and that once a cat is limping it is in real pain. 
.


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## tda (13 December 2021)

twiggy2 said:



			If the cat wants to go up the stairs but doesn't I would say the pain is significant, feeding the cat where it is lying is also taking it too far for me.
An animal that feels pain all the time has very little quality of life at best IMO.
		
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These are my thoughts too


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## Sussexbythesea (13 December 2021)

I'm Dun said:



			Surely the whole point is to avoid crisis point though?
		
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I’m not saying she should wait until crisis point just that an immediate decision does not need to be made and she has time to go through the QOL with her mother so hopefully can avoid a crisis. However it’s not actually her decision nor anybody else’s.


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## ycbm (13 December 2021)

SussexbytheXmasTree said:



			These are elderly cats though not with severe injuries. Mine always go very quiet and hide or don’t move. They don’t go around normal sleeping, eating and bimbling around when they’re poorly or in severe or significant pain.
		
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But they do.

I noticed that my last ginger tom was breathing very quickly and shallowly.i took him to the vet expecting some antibiotics for a chest infection.  The vet said that the breathing was because of congestive heart failure and that he must be put to sleep then and there,  but that she could not guarantee that he would not drop dead before the procedure could be got through.

That cat cannot possibly have been in no discomfort,  but his behaviour never changed.


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## twiggy2 (13 December 2021)

SussexbytheXmasTree said:



			These are elderly cats though not with severe injuries. Mine always go very quiet and hide or don’t move. They don’t go around normal sleeping, eating and bimbling around when they’re poorly or in severe or significant pain.
		
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What's the difference, pain is pain? also often pets start sleeping a lot and a vet will prescribed painkillers and the animals become more active,  sleeping all the time is not an automatic part of getting old, often the sleeping is a sign of pain or illness.
Eating where you sleep, not being able to climb stairs etc etc are not going around normally for these cats, old age can creep in I've a few years and by the time lots of symptoms are there the degree of suffering can be significant.


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## honetpot (13 December 2021)

I took a young cat to the vet, about ten months old, because IMO its just wasn't right, not behaving as it should, and there must be something really wrong with it, to PTS. The vet wanted a X-ray, so OK, it's got a massive chest tumour, so it was PTS. Was it in any pain, I have no idea, but once an animal is not able to carry out its normal activities of living, get away from danger and avoid harm, it's time for it to go. I have done the holding on, until it's slept its self to death, and I am ashamed of myself. Yes it didn't appear in pain, but it must have felt terrible, and was just existing.


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## Sussexbythesea (13 December 2021)

ycbm said:



			I believe that there are now studies which show that cats can have severe arthritis before they start to limp,  and that once a cat is limping it is in real pain.
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That’s interesting. Does anyone know how pain can be measured in cats scientifically speaking?  I get that animals can hide pain just as we can going around our daily business but if the animal isn’t showing signs of pain how do they know the animal is in pain or how significant it is to the animal?

My pain threshold I think is a lot higher than some peoples but obviously I can say what level of pain I’m feeling depending on the stimulus and that can be compared to other peoples whereas a cat can only show it through its behaviour.


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## Pearlsasinger (13 December 2021)

SussexbytheXmasTree said:



			That’s interesting. Does anyone know how pain can be measured in cats scientifically speaking?  I get that animals can hide pain just as we can going around our daily business but if the animal isn’t showing signs of pain how do they know the animal is in pain or how significant it is to the animal?

My pain threshold I think is a lot higher than some peoples but obviously I can say what level of pain I’m feeling depending on the stimulus and that can be compared to other peoples whereas a cat can only show it through its behaviour.
		
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Any animal which is limping must be in pain, I don't see how that can be up for debate.


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## ycbm (13 December 2021)

SussexbytheXmasTree said:



			That’s interesting. Does anyone know how pain can be measured in cats scientifically speaking?  I get that animals can hide pain just as we can going around our daily business but if the animal isn’t showing signs of pain how do they know the animal is in pain or how significant it is to the animal?

My pain threshold I think is a lot higher than some peoples but obviously I can say what level of pain I’m feeling depending on the stimulus and that can be compared to other peoples whereas a cat can only show it through its behaviour.
		
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What this comes down to is that you would be prepared to risk that your animal is in pain but hiding it,  and keep it alive,  whereas I would rather PTS my animals while they are experiencing little or even no pain,  so that they never have to. 

We come from different ends on this. 
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## Sussexbythesea (13 December 2021)

Pearlsacarolsinger said:



			Any animal which is limping must be in pain, I don't see how that can be up for debate.
		
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No one has said that limping doesn’t mean there isn’t some pain it’s more of a question as to whether that pain is severe enough or debilitating enough to make the QOL of an animal unacceptable. People have differing views on what that might be and only the OP and her mum can decide that given the cat(s) in front of them. Maybe if they were mine I’d make that decision now or may have already made it before now or maybe I’d think that they’re still enjoying their comfy life. I just don’t know.


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## AFishOutOfWater (13 December 2021)

AShetlandBitMeOnce said:



			I completely agree with this view, and to me a noticeable limp despite Metacam twice a day is too much pain to be living a happy life, nor is not wanting to go up or down the stairs. But I was told I was heartless for even suggesting it..
		
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Metacam twice a day and still limping is too much for me too personally, especially if it's stopping them coming for food :/


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## Sussexbythesea (13 December 2021)

ycbm said:



			What this comes down to is that you would be prepared to risk that your animal is in pain but hiding it,  and keep it alive,  whereas I would rather PTS my animals while they are experiencing little or even no pain,  so that they never have to.

We come from different ends on this.
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If you are going to insult me I’d say that I have deep empathy with my animals that you perhaps lack I can spot a mile off if anything is amiss. I woke up suddenly at 3.30 am and looked for my kitten the other day as he didn’t come immediately and I found he was poorly probably due to his vaccination although it was 36 hours ago. I slept with him in the spare room for the remaining few hours of the night.

All of my animals have been elected to be pts when ready none have died in their sleep.


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## Cortez (13 December 2021)

SussexbytheXmasTree said:



			If you are going to insult me I’d say that I have deep empathy with my animals that you perhaps lack I can spot a mile off if anything is amiss. I woke up suddenly at 3.30 am and looked for my kitten the other day as he didn’t come immediately and I found he was poorly probably due to his vaccination although it was 36 hours ago. I slept with him in the spare room for the remaining few hours of the night.

All of my animals have been elected to be pts when ready none have died in their sleep.
		
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The only insulting going on is from your corner. Not sure why you're prepared to do that, but there is no need to be rude, we are all interested in alternate points of view.


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## Sussexbythesea (13 December 2021)

Cortez said:



			The only insulting going on is from your corner. Not sure why you're prepared to do that, but there is no need to be rude, we are all interested in alternate points of view.
		
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I think suggesting that I’m prepared to let my animals suffer is an insult, however, if I read too much into YCBM’s comment or misunderstood then I apologise.

I’m not some raving anti-pts person but I’m not so black and white about it either.


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## ycbm (13 December 2021)

SussexbytheXmasTree said:



			If you are going to insult me I’d say that I have deep empathy with my animals that you perhaps lack..
		
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I have not insulted you,  I have stated the facts.  You asked how to obtain a  definitive answer as to whether an animal is in pain and there isn't a way to do that. Therefore,  you are prepared to risk that your animal actually is in pain but not showing it, however slim you perceive that risk to be it is not zero.  You are in common with most people on that,  and you are content that you are making the right decision based on the quality of life as you judge it and you feel fully able to judge whether your animal is in pain.   I don't feel that confidence, myself, from my own direct experience of managing animals. 

Perhaps you should just be content with how you choose to manage things and stop judging  people who put their animals to sleep earlier than you do out of fear that they will leave it too late.
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## Sussexbythesea (13 December 2021)

ycbm said:



			I have not insulted you,  I have stated the facts.  You asked for a definitive answer to whether an animal is in pain and there isn't one. Therefore,  you are prepared to risk that your animal actually is in pain but not showing it.  You are in common with most people on that,  and you are content that you are making the right decision based on the quality of life as you judge it and you feel fully able to judge whether your animal is in pain.   I don't feel that confidence, myself.

Perhaps you should just be content with how you choose to manage things and stop judging  people who put their animals to sleep earlier than you do out of fear that they will leave it too late.
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I don’t think I’m judging anymore than anyone else on this thread though? It’s all just personal opinions isn’t it? The OP asked for perspectives I have mine and others gave there’s and a few (lots) told me I was wrong and I gave my view back. I absolutely think pts is a personal decision and don’t judge but support friends making that hard decision and if you really knew me you’d know that.


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## Cortez (13 December 2021)

SussexbytheXmasTree said:



			I think suggesting that I’m prepared to let my animals suffer is an insult, however, if I read too much into YCBM’s comment or misunderstood then I apologise.

I’m not some raving anti-pts person but I’m not so black and white about it either.
		
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It's never black and white, and it's always heartbreaking.


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## Hepsibah (13 December 2021)

ycbm said:



			What this comes down to is that you would be prepared to risk that your animal is in pain but hiding it,  and keep it alive,  whereas I would rather PTS my animals while they are experiencing little or even no pain,  so that they never have to.

We come from different ends on this.
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That sounds almost as though you might consider pts at birth to avoid any possible pain ever! 
I do generally agree with you though. My cat came home one day with a dead tail, obviously broken. Got her to the vet to amputate it but once she was put under and examined it became clear it was broken further up and she was not going to be able to defecate for herself again. I could have kept her going but it wasn’t going to be a pleasant life for her.


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## ycbm (13 December 2021)

Hepsibah said:



			That sounds almost as though you might consider pts at birth to avoid any possible pain ever!
		
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I assumed we were starting the discussion from a point where the animal was not unlikely to be in pain (from age,  accident or illness),  but there are plenty of animals who would be better off if they had never been born.  
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## Puzzled (13 December 2021)

SussexbytheXmasTree said:



			I’m not in the camp of putting an animal down too soon anymore than I’m in the camp of letting an animal suffer unduly. I think it’s very personal and totally down to the individual animal. Cats are not very good at faking being well when they’re not and you’ll soon know when they’ve had enough.

People with arthritis still lead good lives and so can animals up to a point. I’m not sure that it is relevant that your mums cats sleep a lot and I agree old animals as well as people sleep more and do less it doesn’t mean they should die.

I bet most of us live with a greater or lesser degree of pain especially as we get older but we don’t want to end our lives because of it.
		
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Completely agree with the above…there are plenty of older people who may be a bit sore/arthritic but still have a quality of life. In my experience once cats start loosing their appetite you probably need to make a decision.


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## MiJodsR2BlinkinTite (14 December 2021)

I'm rather in the "better a day too soon" camp too..........

My thoughts in this particular situation are centred around the whole subject of "pain" and the issue of "pain" - as evidenced by the limp still being there even though the animal is on presumably the max pain-relief?? For me, this is the real crux of the issue and for me that would be the same as a horse evidencing lameness in spite of being on say 2X Bute a day and that would indicate that pain is clearly evident even after the best attempts have been made to manage it. In fact this is exactly where my mare was back in the summer - and it was because of this (and other issues) we made the decision to PTS.

You have the problem in that mum isn't able to stand back and see things "logically" as she's obviously very fond of both cats. 

IF making the decision to PTS......... then my action would be to PTS BOTH of the cats together, at the same time. They've been together all their lives and one will grieve without the other. We did this with our two old veteran horses a few years back and whilst it was a real toughie it was actually a damn good deed we did for both of them. Both were aged, both had mobility difficulties which medication was yes alleviating, but over time was losing its effectiveness to deal with the pain/discomfort, and it was considered by the vet and ourselves that the kindest thing to do was put both down together as they were pairbonded and it wouldn't have been kind to have left one without the other.

Sorry I cannot be more optimistic, but this is what I'd do.


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## AShetlandBitMeOnce (14 December 2021)

Thank you all for the replies, it's definitely helped me to know I am not over reacting. I will broach it again soon and bring a QOL form that was mentioned up thread.



MiJodsR2BlinkinTite said:



			IF making the decision to PTS......... then my action would be to PTS BOTH of the cats together, at the same time.
		
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Yes, this would be the case.


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## poiuytrewq (20 December 2021)

I can sympathise op. 
my partner and I have this disagreement. He seems to have absolutely no qualms with leaving it til the bitter end and makes me feel terrible and doubt myself for ever suggesting otherwise.


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## Pearlsasinger (20 December 2021)

I am in the 'better too soon.........' camp too but tbh, if the cats belong to youyr mum, the decision has to be hers. If you don't live with the cats all the time, you will see the deterioration which hasn't noticed when you do see them.The QOL assessment should be of help to you (and to the cats).


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