# Difference between buckskin and dun?



## _jetset_ (17 June 2009)

Please could someone tell me what the difference is between these two?

Is it to do with the colour genetics?


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## Amelia27 (17 June 2009)

Hiya, yep the genetics are very different.  Most of the "dun" looking warmblood types you see are actually buckskin.  Dun is more commonly seen in native types.

Buckskins carry one cream dilute gene (the same as palominos and smokey blacks).  They don't have a dorsal eel stripe or zebra type markings on their legs like true duns do.

Won't go heavily in to the colour genetics behind it all - it's a different world!!


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## Nailed (17 June 2009)

i just thought it was america.. lol
I certainlly won't be calling any colour buckskin...

Lou x


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## cruiseline (17 June 2009)

Most people in the UK refer to all golden coloured horses with black manes and tails as Duns, when in fact the majority of horses that are golden are Buckskin.

They think that the word Buckskin is an American term, so don't use it, when in fact it is used to correctly describe a horse exhibiting a different gene to the 'Dun' gene.


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## Amelia27 (17 June 2009)

here's a description of the genetics if you want to be confused!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dun_gene


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## Nailed (17 June 2009)

so whats yours then? dun or buckskin


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## cruiseline (17 June 2009)

He is a Buckskin


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## Nailed (17 June 2009)

Looks dun to me =oP

Lou x


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## charliesarmy (17 June 2009)

Do you need a buckskin mare to produce a buckskin foal?? 
	
	
		
		
	


	




 cause I want one they are gorgeous


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## Amelia27 (17 June 2009)

[ QUOTE ]
Do you need a buckskin mare to produce a buckskin foal?? 
	
	
		
		
	


	




 cause I want one they are gorgeous 
	
	
		
		
	


	





[/ QUOTE ]

no not necessarily, you could get a buckskin by crossing a bay mare with a cremello stallion or a bay to a palomino etc etc .  Here are all the options:

http://www.doubledilute.com/color-chart.htm


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## cruiseline (17 June 2009)

You are not guaranteed that a buckskin mare to a buckskin stallion will produce a buckskin foal.

My stallion carries the red gene so he can produce all of the following

To chestnut and bay mares:-

Chestnut
Bay
Palomino
Buckskin
also depending on other factors Smokey Black

To another buckskin he could produce:-

Chestnut (if mare was carrying the red gene)
Bay
Buckskin
Palomino
Cremello (if mare was carrying the red gene)
Perlino

also depending on other factors Smokey Black


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## charliesarmy (17 June 2009)

I need to go and find myself a cremello stallion....I actually really do like Buckskin just never imagined it could be possible 
	
	
		
		
	


	




 my mares a dark bay do you think when the colour chart states a Bay it means every colour of bay?? I seriously going to check this one out


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## charliesarmy (17 June 2009)

[ QUOTE ]
You are not guaranteed that a buckskin mare to a buckskin stallion will produce a buckskin foal.

My stallion carries the red gene so he can produce all of the following

To chestnut and bay mares:-

Chestnut
Bay
Palomino
Buckskin
also depending on other factors Smokey Black

To another buckskin he could produce:-

Chestnut (if mare was carrying the red gene)
Bay
Buckskin
Palomino
Cremello (if mare was carrying the red gene)
Perlino

also depending on other factors Smokey Black 

[/ QUOTE ]

Thank you Cruiseline 
	
	
		
		
	


	




 I feel really shallow wanting to breed a horse for colour 
	
	
		
		
	


	




 but it would be something I would consider...my mares a dark bay going to look into this


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## Amelia27 (17 June 2009)

Cruiseline - just wondered if you could help with a query I have.  My friend has a foal who was born palomino but is darker underneath.  Her stallion is was the sire is Smokey black and the dam is chestnut.  The foal still has a perfectly cream mane and tail but looks to be going a shade just a bit lighter than his dad.  Is it likely that he too will be a smokey black?  I am assuming that as he was born pally he must actually carry a dilute gene so the only options are pally, bucksin or smokey black?


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## Amelia27 (17 June 2009)

[ QUOTE ]


Thank you Cruiseline 
	
	
		
		
	


	




 I feel really shallow wanting to breed a horse for colour 
	
	
		
		
	


	




 but it would be something I would consider...my mares a dark bay going to look into this 
	
	
		
		
	


	





[/ QUOTE ]

There are plenty of decent unusual coloured stallions out there now so you don't need to sacrifice quality for colour - you can have both.  If you want to guarantee a dilute coloured foal then you would have to use a cremello or perlino stallion.  There are some very nice ones around


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## cruiseline (17 June 2009)

I don't know what your mares genetic colour is, but if she carries the chestnut gene, with a cremello you would have more chance of getting a palomino, if she doesn't then no problem, but to really guarantee a buckskin out of a chestnut or bay (carrying chestnut) you should use a perlino stallion  
	
	
		
		
	


	





Edited to say that you after all that could get a smokey black instead


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## cruiseline (17 June 2009)

[ QUOTE ]
Cruiseline - just wondered if you could help with a query I have.  My friend has a foal who was born palomino but is darker underneath.  Her stallion is was the sire is Smokey black and the dam is chestnut.  The foal still has a perfectly cream mane and tail but looks to be going a shade just a bit lighter than his dad.  Is it likely that he too will be a smokey black?  I am assuming that as he was born pally he must actually carry a dilute gene so the only options are pally, bucksin or smokey black? 

[/ QUOTE ]

It sounds like the foal is a palomino, but has also received what is called the sooty colouration, it makes the coat a bit darker than normal.

Unless you are talking about the silver dapple gene, what is the breed of horse you are talking about, just to clarify.


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## Amelia27 (17 June 2009)

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Cruiseline - just wondered if you could help with a query I have.  My friend has a foal who was born palomino but is darker underneath.  Her stallion is was the sire is Smokey black and the dam is chestnut.  The foal still has a perfectly cream mane and tail but looks to be going a shade just a bit lighter than his dad.  Is it likely that he too will be a smokey black?  I am assuming that as he was born pally he must actually carry a dilute gene so the only options are pally, bucksin or smokey black? 

[/ QUOTE ]

It sounds like the foal is a palomino, but has also received what is called the sooty colouration, it makes the coat a bit darker than normal.

Unless you are talking about the silver dapple gene, what is the breed of horse you are talking about, just to clarify. 

[/ QUOTE ]

That's very interesting - he's a warmblood.  Dam is KWPN by Rubiquil and sire is BWB by Treliver Decanter


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## cruiseline (17 June 2009)

He is probably showing a sooty colour then, do you have photo, it would give me a better idea.

My stallion has some sooty colouration especially on his cheeks and neck, here is an old photo of him (as a 3 year old), but it does show it.


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## Amelia27 (17 June 2009)

Afraid I'm at work and my photos are at home :-(  Will post one later


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## cruiseline (17 June 2009)

OK I will then try to give you an idea of what I think he is.


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## the watcher (17 June 2009)

An opportune time to demonstrate the effect of the dunning gene which is present in Onyx - mouse dun highland mare x the very chestnut arab HTobago - so not the dun colouration you would expect but the dorsal stripe is present (with a shaded cross over the shoulders) and he has faint zebra striping on his legs and a darker mask on his face - all typical of duns


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## Amelia27 (17 June 2009)

He is absolutely stunning


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## KarynK (17 June 2009)

CharliesArmy  Is your mare the horse in the signature?  I ask because it is possible that she is not a bay but a black and tan if that is the case you might not be able to produce the golden buckskin like Cruiselines lovely boy.   BTW Cruiseline have you got some pics of your boy's parents?

On the black and black and tan coats a single dilute gene can have little or no visible effect, so if you are setting out for that shade of buckskin as opposed to a dark buckskin then you would need to get your mares A series and E series tested and that of the stallion you choose as well, because even if he is a cremello he may carry black and or black and tan.

As your mare is a bay she has a black base coat, the E test will tell you if she carries chestnut (e). The A series test will tell you if she is a Bay (A) a Black and Tan (At) or if she carries black (a).

Animal Genetics in the UK can do the E series but at the moment you have to go to Pet DNA in the USA to find out if a horse A gene is in fact At  Black and tan.

Oh just found this took this last yr on New Forest of a family of creams!

This is the dark buckskin





This the golden





This mare is probably a dark buckskin also judging by this colour of the foal, although the father could have been a buckskin as the Forest registry think they are duns.


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## KarynK (17 June 2009)

This is my Dun who caused a lot of controversy in the genetics world, thought to be a Dark Red Dun he is actually a bay carrying black and tan full profile Ee AAt, but you will see around the coronet band his hairs are chocolate!  But you can see the wild markings over the shoulder and on the legs above the black.


















He actually has a broken dorsal stripe (probably where his appaloosa markings should have been!!!)







He was born sort of a lilac colour


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## cruiseline (17 June 2009)

Yes KarynK, I have pics of mum and dad here you are

Legrande with his mother, she is a palomino, sorry don't have a better one of her, but you can just see her behind him.







And a photo of his father


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## magic104 (17 June 2009)

He is so gorgeous, really like him a lot.


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## Law (17 June 2009)

Can I throw in an unintelligent post here??? Here is my little 'un who, I believe, is buckskin although on any given day looks liver chestnut, bay, chocolate dun or brown! 
	
	
		
		
	


	















Winter woolies shot






He has golden bits round his tummy, sheath, bum (around his dock and top of his legs) and in his armpits (you know what i mean, top of his front legs)


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## cruiseline (17 June 2009)

He definitely looks similar to the one on KarynK post, marked dark buckskin, so you are probably correct. He is lovely to.


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## vikkiandmonica (17 June 2009)

Just wondering, I have a gelding, Wings, who looks bay when ridden etc. but has a dorsal stripe, so would I be correct in calling him a bay, as I always have done, or is he something else?


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## whitewood (17 June 2009)

Hope the picture comes out, first one I have tried to post, so fingers crossed

This is Rooster, Toys Triple Chick an American Quarter Horse Homozygous stallion. You can see the dun factor e.g. leg barrings, dorsal lines, transverse line over his wither etc

Dun factor comes in all colours and shades, red dun, grulla (black dun), dunalinos (with cream factor) and many shades in between.

Hope this helps


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## charliesarmy (17 June 2009)

Yes KarynK it is the bay in my siggy..I do beleive you could be right with the explaination of a Black and tan purely because I have always felt a tad uncomfortable calling her a dark bay because of her much paler areas she almost has dartmoor/exmoor colourings with a mealy mouth ginger areas up the back of her legs stomach area....but thank you for your advice if I was going to put her to a double dilute I would probably get her colour genes checked...especially as her fathers grey 
	
	
		
		
	


	




 lord know what I could end up with 
	
	
		
		
	


	




 these colour genetics have blown my mind today..


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## magic104 (17 June 2009)

So nice to see a QH lovely colour to boot


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## KarynK (17 June 2009)

Thats interesting she is a really golden palomino and dad looks very dark.  So possibly the source of Legrande's sooty? Dad could be a black and tan?  

It's a bit fustrating at the moment not knowing exactly what a bay looks like!

I am sure that it's the bright bay's that produce the golden buckskin and the black and tan's the dark buckskin's as it's only the tan bits on these horses that "show" as buckskin and a bay would be all "tan" apart from the extremities, so it does make sense.

But then again with all the coat shades there are probably more factors involved than just one or two genes.

My sister and I are planning a little summer project around this!!

BTW he could really move as a foal!!!


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## KarynK (17 June 2009)

Yes Law I would put money on that one!!!  Thinking back actually when I was a kid we had some welsh cobs, the stallion was paler palomino the mare almost black but called a dark bay then.  The foal they produced was a dark buckskin but an obvious one (we called her a dun!!!)  She has a foal to an English TB almost black and produced a foal very much like your boy!

These are some pictures I took recently of Grand National Winner Amberleigh House at the National Stud.  He is by the aptly named Buckskin.  I think possibly that black and tans are very prevalent in the TB in the UK probably more so than bays.


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## KarynK (17 June 2009)

[ QUOTE ]
 I have always felt a tad uncomfortable calling her a dark bay because of her much paler areas she almost has dartmoor/exmoor colourings with a mealy mouth ginger areas up the back of her legs stomach area....her fathers grey . 

[/ QUOTE ]

You are safe with the grey, it's a dominant and would show if your mare had it so she hasn't, dominants cant be carried so she cannot produce a grey unless you breed to one.

Interestingly pet DNA tested  Dartmoors I think, they were all black and tans!!


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## KarynK (17 June 2009)

Can you post some pictures of him?


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## Amelia27 (18 June 2009)

[ QUOTE ]
OK I will then try to give you an idea of what I think he is. 

[/ QUOTE ]

This is my friend's colt - at about 7 weeks old (I think)

You can just about see the darker hairs underneath on his backside


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## charliesarmy (18 June 2009)

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
 I have always felt a tad uncomfortable calling her a dark bay because of her much paler areas she almost has dartmoor/exmoor colourings with a mealy mouth ginger areas up the back of her legs stomach area....her fathers grey . 

[/ QUOTE ]

You are safe with the grey, it's a dominant and would show if your mare had it so she hasn't, dominants cant be carried so she cannot produce a grey unless you breed to one.

Interestingly pet DNA tested  Dartmoors I think, they were all black and tans!! 

[/ QUOTE ]

Aha very interesting ind informative...also got it wrong her mothers was grey ID her father Bay TB but looking at the grandnational winner her colours almost identical...she has the pale mouth and the ginger marks which I have just always called her dappled....so I do think she is Black and tan 
	
	
		
		
	


	




 thank you  
	
	
		
		
	


	




 so probably would'nt get that buckskin foalie then *stomps foot*


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## cruiseline (18 June 2009)

He is definitely a palomino, the darker colouration is probably sooty colouration coming through. Palomino's colour can range from a really washed out pale yellow, to a rich dark chocolate colour.

He is lovely, BTW a very handsome foal indeed.


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## Amelia27 (18 June 2009)

[ QUOTE ]


He is lovely, BTW a very handsome foal indeed.  
	
	
		
		
	


	





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Thank you - he's the first foal by her young stallion so she's extremely pleased that he's turned out so good.  I've told her to keep him but she has to sell unfortunately - wish I had the money to buy him


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