# Does anyone hunt barefoot horses?



## katherine1975 (28 May 2010)

I got my cob in August last year and didn't have time to get her fit enough to go hunting. When I got her she had never had shoes on, she now has front shoes but has not needed hind shoes. Do you think I will be able to hunt her next season without hind shoes? (obviously not going every week, hopefully once a month)


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## cptrayes (28 May 2010)

katherine1975 said:



			I got my cob in August last year and didn't have time to get her fit enough to go hunting. When I got her she had never had shoes on, she now has front shoes but has not needed hind shoes. Do you think I will be able to hunt her next season without hind shoes? (obviously not going every week, hopefully once a month)
		
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Why did you put front shoes on if she'd never had any? I have hunted three different horses with no shoes at all. Depending on the horse, you might have to be careful with her diet, especially while the autumn laminitis peak is in progress, as they can feel stones if they are getting too much grass. (maybe that's why you felt you had to put front shoes on??) But if you have  a solid barefoot horse doing plenty of work on roads and tracks to get fit enough to hunt, you'll have no problem hunting with it. If you get those front shoes back off now, she should be ready to hunt without  them by autumn.

I saw two horses last season slip and go right down on the road. You'll never see a barefoot hunter do that!


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## spacefaer (28 May 2010)

I've seen people hunting ponies (and one woman who hunts her Arab) barefoot - if your mare is happy without hind shoes and you're hunting over ground that she can cope with, then why not? Cobs have fantastically strong feet


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## spacefaer (28 May 2010)

I'm intrigued - why do they feel the stones more if they're having too much grass?


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## katherine1975 (28 May 2010)

I got her from World Horse Welfare as a rescue horse and she had only really been ridden in the school and around the farm (plus they try to not to shoe horses where possible due to the expense), I found that she was sore on her fronts without shoes on. Was just wondering whether she would still be ok without hind shoes on.


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## cptrayes (28 May 2010)

katherine1975 said:



			I got her from World Horse Welfare as a rescue horse and she had only really been ridden in the school and around the farm (plus they try to not to shoe horses where possible due to the expense), I found that she was sore on her fronts without shoes on. Was just wondering whether she would still be ok without hind shoes on.
		
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My own experience of barefoot is that people think their horses are OK without back shoes because it is so much more difficult to identify bilateral hind leg lameness than front leg lameness. If she was too sore with ordinary hacking to go without shoes in front then I personally would not hunt her without back ones, when you might suddenly find yourself cantering up half a mile of hardcore farm track with no alternative.

If you want to try and get your mare working more easily without shoes there are plenty of people who will offer you great advice if you post in veterinary or new lounge. The answer is nearly always diet, and usually too much grass. But it can also be mineral imbalances and metabolic issues that are far more difficult to get to the bottom of. 

Hope that helps.


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## cptrayes (28 May 2010)

spacefaer said:



			I'm intrigued - why do they feel the stones more if they're having too much grass?
		
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Shoes have a certain amount of numbing effect, so a shod horse which would have had sore soles (the very first sign of laminitis, comes on much earlier than any difficulty moving) won't feel them until they get quite bad. 

Barefoot horses grow foot at roughly twice the rate of the same horse shod. That's because they have a much bigger blood supply. Laminitis (which only means "inflammation of the laminae" not "dog-lame and standing with its feet rocked forward") is caused by bugs in the bloodstream attacking the laminae. If there is more blood, there will be more bugs. It is my belief that barefoot horses get sole sensitivity earlier than a shod horse because of this. Some barefooters in a senior position in trimming organisations don't believe this, but it makes perfect sense to me and fits with what I see with my own horses. 

Horses were evolved to eat scrub, not grass, especially not the one-species over-fertilised stuff they are allowed these days. When you take a numbr of them barefoot you get to understand quite quickly just what an astonishing proportion of horses are affected by too much grass sugar. One of mine is rock-crunching if he is kept off the grass from 11 til 7, when the sugars are highest, and really quite touchy about stones if he isn't.


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## spacefaer (28 May 2010)

thanks for explaning that 

should we move to veterinary so we don't hijack this post and you can explain "bugs in the bloodstream"??


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## Xlthlx (28 May 2010)

I opened this thinking it would be about barefoot beagling


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## Twirly (29 May 2010)

In direct answer to the question...yes, I hunted my Lusitano mare completely barefoot two seasons. She also dressaged, showjumped and hacked barefoot

Good diet and correct conditioning makes all the difference ;-D CPTrayes will be able to help


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## thehorseloader (29 May 2010)

My cob x tb hunted last winter without hinds quite happily


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## Moggie (29 May 2010)

I have a cob and an ISH I hunt unshod (hate the term "barefoot" ;-) ) - they do at least one day each week, the ISH jumps but the cob doesnt, neither have ever struggled with roadwork/tracks/slipping etc - most other mounted followers are usually compeltely amazed that they don't have shoes on. The reason they don't is that they don't appear to need them ... so why waste money is my thinking!!


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## oakash (29 May 2010)

Moggie, agree with your sentiments! Several barefoot horses are hunted on Exmoors stony tracks, but I think it depends on the horse. I am not so convinced about the diet business. Some horses will be fine without shoes and others not. Barefoots seem great on roads, not so good on slippery muddy pasture where the hoof cannot grip as well as a shoe.


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## cptrayes (29 May 2010)

spacefaer said:



			thanks for explaning that 

should we move to veterinary so we don't hijack this post and you can explain "bugs in the bloodstream"??
		
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No, let's just confuse people like xlthlx on here 

The bug believed to cause the problem is staphylococcus bovis. If the digestion is wrongly balanced (most commonly by too much carbohydrate eaten too quickly - rich grass, got into the feed store and ate a bag of barley ....) then the gut allows the production of too many of them, and they are sized so they can get through the gut wall and into bloodstream. When delivered to the laminae they cause them to swell. Eventually if they get enough they will die and then you really have trouble, because the foot is literally beginning to fall off. 

In a barefoot horse, the swollen laminae will stretch a bit, and allow the pedal bone to drop inside the foot. Barefooters will tell you that the concavity in a foot changes overnight. So at that point you have a pedal bone pressing through the sole on stones on the floor, and a sole that is suffering attack from where it is made (sole corium) exactly the same as the laminae, and a barefoot horse who is not as comfortable on stones as he should be.

Luckily, you get these signs so early that there is no possibility of a barefoot horse ridden regularly on "telltale" surfaces doing himself real damage before the rider knows something has changed, and gets him off the grass.

You might think that barefoot horses getting these signs earlier would be considered a drawback, but for me it is an advantage. It's astonishing the number of grass sensitive horses that are itchy, bad tempered, allergic to things. I reckon that's because the liver is trying to cope with the bugs and a wrong balance in the gut and the horse feels permanently hung over. When the liver works properly those itches, allergies, and temper tantrums sometimes just disappear as if by magic!

The whole health of the horse is all joined up, and the feet act as a "storm brewing" early warning.


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## cptrayes (29 May 2010)

oakash said:



			Moggie, agree with your sentiments! Several barefoot horses are hunted on Exmoors stony tracks, but I think it depends on the horse. I am not so convinced about the diet business. Some horses will be fine without shoes and others not. Barefoots seem great on roads, not so good on slippery muddy pasture where the hoof cannot grip as well as a shoe.
		
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My experience with slipping in mud both affiliated eventing and hunting does not match yours.

My experience with horses that are not fine without shoes is that I have so far managed with thirteen completely different types as long as I got their particular dietary needs sorted out. It can take time that some people will not wait for. Other than that, the ones that people give up on usually have either a sugar sensitivity (most common) or a mineral imbalance. For example, my friend gave her horses the same regime as mine but they were never as good on stones as mine are. I finally found out that her water is higher in manganese than mine (we are both on springs) and so is her land, and that an excess of manganese prevents the absorption of copper, which is implicated in the regulation of insulin balances and digestion of sugar. She now supplements copper and after five years of one mare in particular of being "just one of those horses who can't do it without shoes", she is absolutely solid on her feet.

It's almost always diet but it can be very difficult to work out what is wrong, especially if the horse is metabolically challenged as my rehab horse is.

I'm sure the genetics argument will raise it's head soon. I've done a racing TB whose aluminium plates I took off myself, he was that new off a racetrack. I've done a horse who a newly qualified farrier and a very experienced farrier both told me would never work without shoes. My rehab arrived with feet I could bend with my fingers, he has such a problem with carbohydrate digestion. We barefooteres have done so many horses between us over the last five years now, and those of us who have total control over our horses environment and an obsessive interest in their diet don't fail to produce one that is rock crunching in time.


ps Any horse can be shoeless. Only horses that do work that other horses need shoes for is a barefoot horse. There is a need for a different term and like it or lump  it we have barefoot from the US and it's stuck now.


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## Sessle (29 May 2010)

Mine have only got fronts on, and they are perfectly fine out hunting  Obviously every horse is different, but I'm sure she'll be fine, just see how she goes


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## Sessle (29 May 2010)

Which hunt will you be going with? PM me if you'd prefer!


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## Depp_by_Chocolate (29 May 2010)

That is very interesting cptrayes, what diet should we be looking at to keep our working horses barefoot?


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## cptrayes (29 May 2010)

Depp_by_Chocolate said:



			That is very interesting cptrayes, what diet should we be looking at to keep our working horses barefoot?
		
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Ah! 64,000$ question! It depends on the horse, and you can't tell by breed or body shape. I've had a cob who should have had real problems with grass be rock-crunching with 24/7 turnout and I had a fit affiliated eventer who couldn't tolerate any turnout at all even in winter. 

But there are some things that many, many barefoot owners will recommend -

- brewer's yeast instead of a commercial feed balancer. Cheaper, contains most of the minerals the horse needs in a form they find very bio-available and they love it. Often stops horses itching too. Feed at 50 grammes a day for a horse. Costs £50 for 25kg delivered from Charnwood milling, more sacks cheaper as the delivery cost is high. 

- magnesium oxide. Spring grass is low in magnesium which is why lots of horses need magnesium calmers to control their behaviour in spring. Implicated in irritated nerve endings if in short supply. Used up quicker if the horse is stressed. Fed at around 25 grammes a day. Available as calmag at £9 for 25kg from agricultural merchants, or if your horse has a sensitive gut feed food grade MgO from eBay.

- expect to restrict spring grazing and if necessary summer/autumn. Most of us find it easiest to control our sensitive ones if they are in during high-sugar hours 11am  to 7pm. Also saves them being bothered by flies and sunburn. Mine just sleep and pick a bit of haylage.

For the sensitive ones -

- remove molasses, cane syrup, wheat syrup and corn syrup from your horse's diet. Don't go by the sack, look at the white label. Lots of feeds sold as safe for laminitics have tons of sugar in them.

- soak hay to get the sugar out.

- for extra energy, feed oil.

- if the horse can tolerate carbs feed oats not barley, barley is digested in the wrong part of the gut.

For the ones who can't be controlled with low sugar high fibre diets -

- check your minerals in your grazing and your forage. You may have underload or overload of key minerals causing a problem, like my friend with the copper/manganese imbalance.

- check for Insulin Resistance (IR), Equine Polysaccharride Storage Myopathy (EPSM) and Cushings. My rehab has EPSM, judging by his reaction to the high oil, high vit E diet he has been on for a week. 

That's a potted summary, it's not by any means the whole picture but I hope it was helpful. You might find Feet First, available on Amazon, an interesting read for foot health whether your horse is shod or not.


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## star (30 May 2010)

my horse hunted all the last 2 seasons barefoot. never a days lameness, never footsore, no abscesses.  trimmed every 6-8wks, feet kept neat in between by me.  fed normal food, no special supplements, nothing painted on his feet.  he has got fabulous natural feet that have never been ruined by shoes.


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## Depp_by_Chocolate (30 May 2010)

cptrayes said:



			Ah! 64,000$ question! It depends on the horse, and you can't tell by breed or body shape. I've had a cob who should have had real problems with grass be rock-crunching with 24/7 turnout and I had a fit affiliated eventer who couldn't tolerate any turnout at all even in winter. 

But there are some things that many, many barefoot owners will recommend -

- brewer's yeast instead of a commercial feed balancer. Cheaper, contains most of the minerals the horse needs in a form they find very bio-available and they love it. Often stops horses itching too. Feed at 50 grammes a day for a horse. Costs £50 for 25kg delivered from Charnwood milling, more sacks cheaper as the delivery cost is high. 

- magnesium oxide. Spring grass is low in magnesium which is why lots of horses need magnesium calmers to control their behaviour in spring. Implicated in irritated nerve endings if in short supply. Used up quicker if the horse is stressed. Fed at around 25 grammes a day. Available as calmag at £9 for 25kg from agricultural merchants, or if your horse has a sensitive gut feed food grade MgO from eBay.

- expect to restrict spring grazing and if necessary summer/autumn. Most of us find it easiest to control our sensitive ones if they are in during high-sugar hours 11am  to 7pm. Also saves them being bothered by flies and sunburn. Mine just sleep and pick a bit of haylage.

For the sensitive ones -

- remove molasses, cane syrup, wheat syrup and corn syrup from your horse's diet. Don't go by the sack, look at the white label. Lots of feeds sold as safe for laminitics have tons of sugar in them.

- soak hay to get the sugar out.

- for extra energy, feed oil.

- if the horse can tolerate carbs feed oats not barley, barley is digested in the wrong part of the gut.

For the ones who can't be controlled with low sugar high fibre diets -

- check your minerals in your grazing and your forage. You may have underload or overload of key minerals causing a problem, like my friend with the copper/manganese imbalance.

- check for Insulin Resistance (IR), Equine Polysaccharride Storage Myopathy (EPSM) and Cushings. My rehab has EPSM, judging by his reaction to the high oil, high vit E diet he has been on for a week. 

That's a potted summary, it's not by any means the whole picture but I hope it was helpful. You might find Feet First, available on Amazon, an interesting read for foot health whether your horse is shod or not.
		
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Thanks for that, it was very helpful I'm definitely going to look into it


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## cptrayes (30 May 2010)

star said:



			my horse hunted all the last 2 seasons barefoot. never a days lameness, never footsore, no abscesses.  trimmed every 6-8wks, feet kept neat in between by me.  fed normal food, no special supplements, nothing painted on his feet.  he has got fabulous natural feet that have never been ruined by shoes.
		
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I have one the same now and have had others. It's a joy to have one like it, and there are many. And I have another kept exactly the same way, who has also never had shoes who can't do rock-crunching in summer unless I restrict his daytime grass intake. It was him who first alerted me to just how important diet is to some horses. I hope people are beginning to realise that it's not an explanation to say "some horses can do it and some can't" until you explore just what it is in the diet that might be preventing  your "can't do it" horse from "doing it".


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## star (1 June 2010)

i dont think there's anything special about the diet of my "cant do it" horse.  he eats the same as my fabulous footed horse.  But he naturally has the flattest soles I've seen in my life!  It's not surprising he cant do stony ground.  I think diet does play a part, but genetics is a huge factor.


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## mrdarcy (1 June 2010)

star said:



			i dont think there's anything special about the diet of my "cant do it" horse.  he eats the same as my fabulous footed horse.
		
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But that's exactly the point. Like humans individual horses have very different metabolisms. So whilst one person can eat fatty food, chocolate and sugary drinks and never put weight on the person stood next to them would be the size of a house on the same diet. Exactly the same with horses - they can all cope with different amounts of sugar and starch in their diet. So one horse can eat limitless grass and still be rock crunching whilst his field companion will be extremely footsore eating exactly the same amount of grass. Genetics probably play a part in the type of metabolism a horse has - just as skinny parents with quick metabolisms will tend to have skinny kids and vice versa - but that's different to the actual ability to have great feet. ALL horses can have strong healthy feet if you get the diet right, though for some horses getting the diet right is extremely (and sometimes impossibly) difficult.


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## Orangehorse (1 June 2010)

There was a lovely picture in Horse and Hound at the beginning of last season (one before last) of an old hunter that had been retired due to navicular.  After going barefoot and being correctly trimmed and rehabilitated he was back hunting again.

Interesting theory about the laminitis causing "bugs."  I have long subscribed to the "leaky gut" theory behind laminitis, which is why I feed my two, one working and one not working "an expensive feed supplement" with digestive yeasts and the only time the non working pony showed any symptoms of laminitis was when I ran out of the supplement.


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## rosie fronfelen (1 June 2010)

no never, our horses wouldn't have any feet left!!


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## Lynds (1 June 2010)

yes, I have hunted with Bloodhounds and Fox Hounds without shoes. My horse was fine.


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## mrdarcy (1 June 2010)

rosiefronfelen said:



			no never, our horses wouldn't have any feet left!!
		
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Why on earth would they have no feet left?!


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## cptrayes (1 June 2010)

rosiefronfelen said:



			no never, our horses wouldn't have any feet left!!
		
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Interesting! Why would yours have no feet left when mine and all the others posted about on here are absolutely fine???   Plllleeeeeeeeeeze don't answer that it's the terrain or the mileage! All my horses fittening work is done on roads (hours and hours of roadwork) and tracks that are the rocky beds of streams, so it's not the wear, or the quality of the surface, or the distance you cover. 

Star, ditto Mr Darcy. Your horse does not "naturally" have flat feet. The pedal bone is saucer shaped and the shape of the sole matches it provided that the hoof is properly attached to the pedal bone by the laminae. The rehab horse that I have now has had "naturally flat feet - inherited from his half TB father"  since he was born. He's now ten. I have his diet absolutely right now and his attachment is so much better that in the last 14 days he has developed significant concavity and a hugely increased ability to cope with stones, to the point where he is now hacking on roads with no boots. Ten years "genetic" flat footedness changed in three months? I'd bet my bottom dollar your "naturally flat footed" horse would concave up if you stopped letting it eat the sugar that your other horse has no problem with.

Anyone who wants to see a picture of a foot so flat that the frog is far and away the highest thing on it and there is no height whatsoever in the heels (no bars), PM me with your email address. That horse is one who two farriers told me would never work barefoot, and although it took nine months, he competed affiliated eventing at Novice level without shoes.


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## rosie fronfelen (1 June 2010)

cptrayes said:



			Interesting! Why would yours have no feet left when mine and all the others posted about on here are absolutely fine???   Plllleeeeeeeeeeze don't answer that it's the terrain or the mileage! All my horses fittening work is done on roads (hours and hours of roadwork) and tracks that are the rocky beds of streams, so it's not the wear, or the quality of the surface, or the distance you cover. 

Star, ditto Mr Darcy. Your horse does not "naturally" have flat feet. The pedal bone is saucer shaped and the shape of the sole matches it provided that the hoof is properly attached to the pedal bone by the laminae. The rehab horse that I have now has had "naturally flat feet - inherited from his half TB father"  since he was born. He's now ten. I have his diet absolutely right now and his attachment is so much better that in the last 14 days he has developed significant concavity and a hugely increased ability to cope with stones, to the point where he is now hacking on roads with no boots. Ten years "genetic" flat footedness changed in three months? I'd bet my bottom dollar your "naturally flat footed" horse would concave up if you stopped letting it eat the sugar that your other horse has no problem with.

Anyone who wants to see a picture of a foot so flat that the frog is far and away the highest thing on it and there is no height whatsoever in the heels (no bars), PM me with your email address. That horse is one who two farriers told me would never work barefoot, and although it took nine months, he competed affiliated eventing at Novice level without shoes.
		
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our 17 year old has bad feet anyway, but the main reason is i dont believe in it. this is just my own personal opinion being of the old school as they say, also in the 38 odd years i've worked with horses they have always been shod.


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## cptrayes (1 June 2010)

You don't believe in it and you have no experience of it and yet you are certain that your horses feet would wear out if they didn't have shoes on? In the 38 odd years I've worked with horses they have always been shod  - until five years ago desperation made me try with two horses, one very much against the advice of my farriers, and none of mine have been shod since and they never will be again. 

If you always do what you always did you'll always get what you always got.


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## rosie fronfelen (1 June 2010)

cptrayes said:



			You don't believe in it and you have no experience of it and yet you are certain that your horses feet would wear out if they didn't have shoes on? In the 38 odd years I've worked with horses they have always been shod  - until five years ago desperation made me try with two horses, one very much against the advice of my farriers, and none of mine have been shod since and they never will be again. 

If you always do what you always did you'll always get what you always got.
		
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each to their own, ours will always be shod, you do things your way and we do things our way- we are neither right nor wrong, i dont havemuch choice in my life so i am happy to get what i always got.


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## cptrayes (1 June 2010)

You posted on a forum which was asking if anyone had hunted barefoot horses. If you aren't interested in learning how those of us who DO hunt barefoot horses do it, why bother to post? 

We ALL have choices. You think you don't , but you have made a choice not to try to learn any more about hoof health - yet you have a 17 year old with "bad feet" that could almost certainly be improved considerably by a number of people who have posted on this thread. Likewise there are probably quite a few of us who could happily hunt your horses with no shoes on after a sensible transition program and barefoot tuned feeding. 

Shoe if you want to, that's not a problem for any of us, but don't be surprised to be challenged if you post implying to the original poster and other readers that it can't be done with your horses when it probably can and it is your choice not to try.


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## star (1 June 2010)

i do know what shape the pedal bone is, strangely enough they taught us that at vet school!

my flat footed horse is still flat footed after 9mths box rest so i dont think grass is the route cause of it all.  he's 24 now and has had flat feet all his life.  he's retired and his life revolves around eating yummy green stuff.  i wont be changing that any time soon.


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## rosie fronfelen (1 June 2010)

cptrayes said:



			You posted on a forum which was asking if anyone had hunted barefoot horses. If you aren't interested in learning how those of us who DO hunt barefoot horses do it, why bother to post? 

We ALL have choices. You think you don't , but you have made a choice not to try to learn any more about hoof health - yet you have a 17 year old with "bad feet" that could almost certainly be improved considerably by a number of people who have posted on this thread. Likewise there are probably quite a few of us who could happily hunt your horses with no shoes on after a sensible transition program and barefoot tuned feeding. 

Shoe if you want to, that's not a problem for any of us, but don't be surprised to be challenged if you post implying to the original poster and other readers that it can't be done with your horses when it probably can and it is your choice not to try.
		
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please dont try to be unpleasant, you know nothing about my horse, but there are just as many who shoe as do not- my horse is shod most of the year as his feet tend to break, he has never been lame in his life- also i NEVER said it couldn't be done to my horses, i just dont agree with it- old fashioned i may be, but i'm sure all the employers i have worked for throughout haven't all been wrong! so please do not patronise me because of my differing views.


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## mrdarcy (1 June 2010)

LOL - to me there's nothing yummy about the green stuff - I hate it! But to horses it's very yummy... far too yummy in fact and bad for them... I like to think of turning horses out in rye grass green fields the equivalent of letting a child loose in a chocolate factory. They will stuff their faces and look very happy but it certainly aint good for them. Just out of interest what was your horse fed whilst on box rest? Sugar and starch overload doesn't just come from grass but also from molassed mixes, cubes and chops and from licks, carrots and other treats. All things that tend to get fed to bored box rested horses. And of course movement is crucial to growing strong healthy feet, so the moment you box rest a horse their feet will deteriorate. To get strong concave feet you need the right diet for that horse, almost constant movement on a variety of terrains but most importantly hard/uneven/rocky and a good trim.

It does baffle me a little bit that we all seem to have accepted the relationship between healthy eating and human health i.e we eat at MacDonalds on a regular basis and our health will suffer, yet when healthy eating and horse health is talked about people refuse to see the same links.


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## star (1 June 2010)

both my horses eat fibre only diets.  my old one is fat so he lives on hi-fi lite and unmolassed sugar beet and soaked hay.  my youngster with his fabulous feet (incidently still fabulous after a few mths box rest) eats molassed chaff, big sticky molassed licks and shed loads of apples and carrots.  when he's not on box rest he lives in a flat, sandy field - no variety of terrain at all.  his feet just stay wonderful.

i'm a vet, i totally get healthy eating for horses, but i dont think diet alone is the answer to everything.  horses were designed to eat grass and wild ones would have good feet or die.  grass isn't the route of all evil.


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## mrdarcy (1 June 2010)

star said:



			both my horses eat fibre only diets.  my old one is fat so he lives on hi-fi lite and unmolassed sugar beet and soaked hay.  my youngster with his fabulous feet (incidently still fabulous after a few mths box rest) eats molassed chaff, big sticky molassed licks and shed loads of apples and carrots.  when he's not on box rest he lives in a flat, sandy field - no variety of terrain at all.  his feet just stay wonderful.

i'm a vet, i totally get healthy eating for horses, but i dont think diet alone is the answer to everything.  horses were designed to eat grass and wild ones would have good feet or die.  grass isn't the route of all evil.
		
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But the grasses horses evolved to eat are nothing like the grasses they eat here in the UK. It's as different as apples and elephants. That's one of the reasons why wild horses have great feet - they wouldn't if they were stuck on green grass for a few days (and this has actually been observed - a small band of wild horses got trapped in a nature reserve, almost all of them came down with laminitis within a few days). Plus wild horses have a far more varied diet - the dried grasses make up only a small proportion of their diet, they also eat a huge variety of herbs, bushes, trees, twigs, mud and mineral rocks. In the UK our horses tend to be in single species pastures, usually ryegrass. In the wild a horse would never encounter rye grass. So to say horses were designed to eat grasses is fine, but they certainly weren't designed to eat the grasses they eat in this country.

Your youngster is clearly one of the lucky horses with a very fast metabolism though you may find he is less able to digest all that sugar when he matures and stops putting energy into growing. Lots of people find they can feed their horses anything until they reach eight or nine years old and then suddenly they start having problems. Interesting you say your oldie is fat... well if he's fat he isn't healthy is he? No wonder he has flat feet.


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## star (1 June 2010)

my youngster is 8 now and yes, he has a very fast metabolism.  i have to feed him a lot to keep weight on him.

my old one has always had flat feet, no matter what weight he is.  when i say fat, i dont mean obese, but i like my horses lean and he is carrying slightly too much for my liking.  somehow i dont think that's the cause of his flat feet though!  i'd rather you didn't pass judgement on how healthy he is without actually seeing him.  he's 24 and everyone who meets him cant believe how amazingly good he looks for his age, so actually i reckon he's pretty damn healthy, but he's not in work so I'll let him get away with carrying a bit more weight than my youngster.


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## cptrayes (1 June 2010)

star said:



			i do know what shape the pedal bone is, strangely enough they taught us that at vet school!

my flat footed horse is still flat footed after 9mths box rest so i dont think grass is the route cause of it all.  he's 24 now and has had flat feet all his life.  he's retired and his life revolves around eating yummy green stuff.  i wont be changing that any time soon.
		
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Your point is? His flat feet are hardly going to improve stuck without movement in a box for nine months. Correct movement is essential too. If his life revolved around yummy green stuff for 23 years followed by the best part of a year stuck in a box it is no wonder he has flat feet. 

I find it interesting that some people (I don't mean you) think that it is unfair not to allow their horses to have unlimited access to the "yummy green stuff", irrespective of the fact that for many horses it is causing liver problems which must give them a constant hungover feeling. I suspect that a lot of the issue is that it is easier and cheaper for us as owners to have the spring summer and autumn off from mucking out stables. 

As a vet I would hope that you would be more open minded about whether diet contributes to your old boy's flat feet. But it sounds as if you could be one of those vets who are still recommending people with horses that have had tildren, adequan, HLA injected into the navicular bursa and bar shoes and are still lame should be shot? It's a good job that my rehab didn't quite reach that point with his vet, because after having had all that lot, he was sound ten weeks after taking off his shoes and at twelve weeks did a 6 mile farm ride with plenty of cantering and jumped ten fences on the way round, all on rock hard ground. The flat feet, however, in spite of being off grass completely, did not resolve until I worked out what diet he needed, and have since got deeper every day.

I simply don't buy the "genetically flat feet" argument. I bought a horse with them. Only to find out when he was eight that after three months without shoes his feet weren't flat at all - and I can guarantee you have NEVER seen a flatter foot than his, he was one of those who can only be shod one front foot at a time because he could not stand with both front shoes off. I haven't failed to see one concave up yet when you have worked out what the horse needs, but as Mr Darcy says it can sometimes be very difficult and for some people and horses it's better to shoe.

I have nothing against anyone who shoes. Some people need to. But I find it irritating (have you noticed ) when anyone says their horse "can't do it" without making any attempt to test what dietary changes might mean that the horse can indeed "do it".  It puts other people off trying what is, for most of the horses who are barefoot, a major holistic improvement in their health.


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## cptrayes (1 June 2010)

rosiefronfelen said:



			please dont try to be unpleasant, you know nothing about my horse, but there are just as many who shoe as do not- my horse is shod most of the year as his feet tend to break, he has never been lame in his life- also i NEVER said it couldn't be done to my horses, i just dont agree with it- old fashioned i may be, but i'm sure all the employers i have worked for throughout haven't all been wrong! so please do not patronise me because of my differing views.
		
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Now I am baffled. You don't agree with hunting horses without shoes? Why not? My horse gallops up farm tracks made of hardcore alongside everyone elses. Why would you want me to have him shod? Or have I misunderstood?  I can tell you that either your old employers were wrong in believing that all their horses needed to be shod, or, with no training at all (just a sharp brain and a good rasp) I have been flukily lucky with horse after horse after horse, eventing and hunting, including one who farriers told me could not possibly "do it" and now one who was 24 hours away from being put to sleep for foot issues.

You posted that your horses' feet would wear out (I read that as "it couldn't be done to your horses", I can't see how else to read it.) and this is misleading to other people who might want to try it, because they almost certainly would not. I am not being patronising. You patronised me with your 38 years experience, probably thinking that I was young and naive, and actually I'm an old fart and have 39 years experience. You chose to enter this debate but you don't want your views challenged. It doesn't work that way, sorry.


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## SusieT (1 June 2010)

*slight funny moment of cptrayes explaining to the vet the shape of the pedal bone and how to feed...*

Anyway=cptrayes-is this all stuff you have thought up or is there actually any research behind it-proper scientific stuff? Since there should be if this is true. And I for one would love to read a study on it.


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## cptrayes (1 June 2010)

SusieT said:



			*slight funny moment of cptrayes explaining to the vet the shape of the pedal bone and how to feed...*

Anyway=cptrayes-is this all stuff you have thought up or is there actually any research behind it-proper scientific stuff? Since there should be if this is true. And I for one would love to read a study on it.
		
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Do a search on the other threads on this forum and you will find that there is a ton of research. Google "barefoot" and follow the pointers to all the barefoot sites on there and you will learn as much as you can spare the time to study. Take your own horse barefoot and you will marvel at what a difference it will make to his feet.

I was completely unaware that Star was a vet when I explained the shape of the pedal bone, though I'm sure other people learned from it and I'm pleased if it gave you some amusement.

You think vets in general are experts in feed? More fool you!  If I had ten quid for every metabolically challenged horse who cannot cope with feeds marked "laminitic safe" and stamped with the approval of a leading set of Veterinary Surgeons I'd be rich.


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## star (1 June 2010)

cptrayes - OMG, could you make any more assumptions about me in one reply?  i cant even be bothered to respond to the derogatory statements about what i might or might not do as a vet.

but i will say that my horse doesn't live out on the nice green stuff because i cant be arsed to muck out - he lives out because he gets COPD, box walks, weaves, gets filled legs and stresses himself into a skeleton.  now i wonder which is the lesser of 2 evils - oh yes, the grass he's been eating for the last 24yrs that keeps him looking so good the envy of most people with horses anywhere near his age.  he is sound and happy - that's all that currently matters to me.  so, he has flat feet and i let him eat grass - well, shoot me now!  perhaps i should be struck off and hand my job over to you as you clearly know far more than me and i am obviously being so cruel to him.

may i remind you i have a barefoot horse who hunts who has the most amazing feet, is never ever footsore, eats grass and has no special diet or footcare.  obviously he is a complete freak though as the grass should be poisoning him and dissolving his feet and liver.

:goes off to bed chuckling with amazement at some people!:


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## SusieT (1 June 2010)

No-surely if you have the authority to tell everyone all of this stuff-you should be able to direct them to the research that led to these conclusions? It is a question I would imagine you get asked often. 
It can be tested for what horses are processing of their food, so have studies been done on this? Where is the evidence for where food is digested in the gut? Are the assumptions made just compared to humans-silly as their digestive system is massively different to ours...
Or is this all anecdotal evidence based on horse owners (often with little scientific training) observations?
I don't want to use barefoot sites-these are not scientifically peer reviewed or controlled studies-they could be written by anyone and about anything. I could make up a website about two headed fish. 
I won't marvel at the difference it will make as I have both shod and unshod horses-and sound and unsound horses.


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## cptrayes (2 June 2010)

star said:



			cptrayes - OMG, could you make any more assumptions about me in one reply?  i cant even be bothered to respond to the derogatory statements about what i might or might not do as a vet.

but i will say that my horse doesn't live out on the nice green stuff because i cant be arsed to muck out - he lives out because he gets COPD, box walks, weaves, gets filled legs and stresses himself into a skeleton.  now i wonder which is the lesser of 2 evils - oh yes, the grass he's been eating for the last 24yrs that keeps him looking so good the envy of most people with horses anywhere near his age.  he is sound and happy - that's all that currently matters to me.  so, he has flat feet and i let him eat grass - well, shoot me now!  perhaps i should be struck off and hand my job over to you as you clearly know far more than me and i am obviously being so cruel to him.

may i remind you i have a barefoot horse who hunts who has the most amazing feet, is never ever footsore, eats grass and has no special diet or footcare.  obviously he is a complete freak though as the grass should be poisoning him and dissolving his feet and liver.

:goes off to bed chuckling with amazement at some people!:
		
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I think you missed these words in my post "(I don't mean you) "


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## cptrayes (2 June 2010)

SusieT said:



			No-surely if you have the authority to tell everyone all of this stuff-you should be able to direct them to the research that led to these conclusions? It is a question I would imagine you get asked often. 
It can be tested for what horses are processing of their food, so have studies been done on this? Where is the evidence for where food is digested in the gut? Are the assumptions made just compared to humans-silly as their digestive system is massively different to ours...
Or is this all anecdotal evidence based on horse owners (often with little scientific training) observations?
I don't want to use barefoot sites-these are not scientifically peer reviewed or controlled studies-they could be written by anyone and about anything. I could make up a website about two headed fish. 
I won't marvel at the difference it will make as I have both shod and unshod horses-and sound and unsound horses.
		
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I fail to see why I should do your work for you. If you are interested, research it for yourself like the rest of us do.


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## SusieT (2 June 2010)

cptrayes said:



			I fail to see why I should do your work for you. If you are interested, research it for yourself like the rest of us do.
		
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so in other words you have none to direct me to. 
Not surprising really.


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## mrdarcy (2 June 2010)

star said:



			cptrayes - OMG, could you make any more assumptions about me in one reply?  i cant even be bothered to respond to the derogatory statements about what i might or might not do as a vet.

but i will say that my horse doesn't live out on the nice green stuff because i cant be arsed to muck out - he lives out because he gets COPD, box walks, weaves, gets filled legs and stresses himself into a skeleton.  now i wonder which is the lesser of 2 evils - oh yes, the grass he's been eating for the last 24yrs that keeps him looking so good the envy of most people with horses anywhere near his age.  he is sound and happy - that's all that currently matters to me.  so, he has flat feet and i let him eat grass - well, shoot me now!  perhaps i should be struck off and hand my job over to you as you clearly know far more than me and i am obviously being so cruel to him.

may i remind you i have a barefoot horse who hunts who has the most amazing feet, is never ever footsore, eats grass and has no special diet or footcare.  obviously he is a complete freak though as the grass should be poisoning him and dissolving his feet and liver.

:goes off to bed chuckling with amazement at some people!:
		
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This is turning into one of those pointless arguments - nothing new there... we're used to it!

But I am genuinely interested in how much teaching you got about horses feet at vet school - both theory and practical. I have been told by another vet that it was at most a week. A week out of five years is no where near enough IMO. But perhaps things have improved since they were at vet school. I would hope these days that the horses hoof would merit at least a semester of indepth lectures. It would also be really useful if you could point me in the direction of the syllabus you studied with regards to the feet - I'd be interested to know exactly what was being taught because IME the vets I have come across have very limited, and sometimes wildly incorrect, knowledge about feet. But again perhaps the vet schools have improved their training in the last few years. One vet - a very experienced and respected equine vet - actually stated that horses in the UK could never manage barefoot because the wet conditions gave them all white line disease!!!! I was walking past him leading one of my barefoot endurance horses over the gravel yard at the time. White line disease... what white line disease??!!! LOL!!!


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## rosie fronfelen (2 June 2010)

cptrayes said:



			Now I am baffled. You don't agree with hunting horses without shoes? Why not? My horse gallops up farm tracks made of hardcore alongside everyone elses. Why would you want me to have him shod? Or have I misunderstood?  I can tell you that either your old employers were wrong in believing that all their horses needed to be shod, or, with no training at all (just a sharp brain and a good rasp) I have been flukily lucky with horse after horse after horse, eventing and hunting, including one who farriers told me could not possibly "do it" and now one who was 24 hours away from being put to sleep for foot issues.

You posted that your horses' feet would wear out (I read that as "it couldn't be done to your horses", I can't see how else to read it.) and this is misleading to other people who might want to try it, because they almost certainly would not. I am not being patronising. You patronised me with your 38 years experience, probably thinking that I was young and naive, and actually I'm an old fart and have 39 years experience. You chose to enter this debate but you don't want your views challenged. It doesn't work that way, sorry.
		
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the question was" does anyone hunt barefoot?" my answer was no. you misconstrued my answer to suit your beliefs, this is my last post to you to which i will no doubt get the "i know everything and you know nowt" retort. before i go i was not patronising you by saying i'd been employed for 38 years( of course you typically had to take yours 1 more year lol- i said that in case i was considered a newbie to the horse world, nothing more.as i said before, i am of the old school and cannot remember barefoot in my younger days. i have absolutely no interest in this particular research and will continue to shoe- is that so wrong?? answer can be either a 2 letter or 3 letter, not another epistle- i really dont care if my views are challenged, but a nicer way of going about it would have been appreciated! so with that i buy your leave and agree to disagree.


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## rosie fronfelen (2 June 2010)

by the way, i remember in the days of Mr.Woof you were very pleasant and supportive of me- i wonder what went wrong??


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## soloequestrian (2 June 2010)

Just some musings on the whole issue of peer reviewed studies - requests for these seem to come up regularly with regard to barefoot.
A published peer-reviewed study isn't gospel.  Anecdotal evidence isn't necessarily unsound (no pun intended...).  One case study obviously doesn't give strong evidence for anything, but a large body of anecdotal evidence should be at least seriously considered.
I'd be quite surprised if there is ever any strong scientific evidence to support points made in the discussion above that isn't based on case studies.  The influence of diet on hooves is unlikely to attract lots of funding which is what's usually required for large scale studies to take place.  And small scale studies are really just the same as case studies.
Would be interested to hear ideas about how a peer reviewed, controlled study could be done?
There's also the whole tradition issue.  We're at the point now where we have very effective hoof protection available in the form of hoof boots.  Is it simply the tradition of shoeing horses that keeps most people from using these instead of shoes, or are they regarded as inferior?  If so, why is that?


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## rosie fronfelen (2 June 2010)

cptrayes said:



			Now I am baffled. You don't agree with hunting horses without shoes? Why not? My horse gallops up farm tracks made of hardcore alongside everyone elses. Why would you want me to have him shod? Or have I misunderstood?  I can tell you that either your old employers were wrong in believing that all their horses needed to be shod, or, with no training at all (just a sharp brain and a good rasp) I have been flukily lucky with horse after horse after horse, eventing and hunting, including one who farriers told me could not possibly "do it" and now one who was 24 hours away from being put to sleep for foot issues.

You posted that your horses' feet would wear out (I read that as "it couldn't be done to your horses", I can't see how else to read it.) and this is misleading to other people who might want to try it, because they almost certainly would not. I am not being patronising. You patronised me with your 38 years experience, probably thinking that I was young and naive, and actually I'm an old fart and have 39 years experience. You chose to enter this debate but you don't want your views challenged. It doesn't work that way, sorry.
		
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actually, reading back to this, you are insulting my old employers-which i find unforgiveable. how many employers have you had over your 39 years? i haven't just worked for any old hick but then i'm not one for bragging so i'll say no more!!


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## rosie fronfelen (2 June 2010)

soloequestrian said:



			Just some musings on the whole issue of peer reviewed studies - requests for these seem to come up regularly with regard to barefoot.
A published peer-reviewed study isn't gospel.  Anecdotal evidence isn't necessarily unsound (no pun intended...).  One case study obviously doesn't give strong evidence for anything, but a large body of anecdotal evidence should be at least seriously considered.
I'd be quite surprised if there is ever any strong scientific evidence to support points made in the discussion above that isn't based on case studies.  The influence of diet on hooves is unlikely to attract lots of funding which is what's usually required for large scale studies to take place.  And small scale studies are really just the same as case studies.
Would be interested to hear ideas about how a peer reviewed, controlled study could be done?
There's also the whole tradition issue.  We're at the point now where we have very effective hoof protection available in the form of hoof boots.  Is it simply the tradition of shoeing horses that keeps most people from using these instead of shoes, or are they regarded as inferior?  If so, why is that?
		
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in my case, its tradition which suits us, i have no knowledge of these boots and am simply not interested, they may be brilliant but why fix something that aint broke, as they say!!


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## cptrayes (2 June 2010)

SusieT said:



			so in other words you have none to direct me to. 
Not surprising really.
		
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You aren't interested in the research susiet or you would go and look it up like the rest of us have. You are interested in a fight, but like Mr Darcy says, we're used to it. The information is out there if you want it. I fail to see why I should spend my time spoon feeding you it.

Overnight I have worked out why I am so concerned about a vet who is adamant that there are horses born to have flat feet. Take a horse like my rehab. Flat footed for all his adult life. Radiographs showing navicular syndrome and very thin soles. Treated with tildren, adequan, hyaluronic acid injected into the foot and in bar shoes. Still lame. Even if that vet believes in barefoot rehabilitation for navicular syndrome, they are going to say to that owner "there have  been some good results with barefoot for a navicular rehab, but I'm afraid since yours has been flat footed all his life and has such thin soles, he simply won't cope", and he would have been put down, because he was too unsound to be a happy paddock ornament.

Instead, I removed him from grass completely, worked out the rest of his issues, and have him on a diet that now obviously suits him perfectly. The concavity in his feet is still increasing every day. He is sound, being placed in dressage competitions and doing farm rides and jumping. He's only ten, looks happy to be alive, beautiful and extremely talented with a wonderful piaffe. What a shame if he were to be dead because of a vet who didn't believe a horse that was flat footed for life could be changed 

He needs a loan home for life now if anyone thinks they can offer him the life he deserves. With grass free turnout of course. Please PM me if you think he could be the horse for you.


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## mrdarcy (2 June 2010)

rosiefronfelen said:



			in my case, its tradition which suits us, i have no knowledge of these boots and am simply not interested, they may be brilliant but why fix something that aint broke, as they say!!
		
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But that's the point. There are hundreds of thousands of horses that are broken - navicular, arthritis, tendon and ligament issues, spavins etc etc. A conservative estimate put it as 80% of domesticated horses at any one time have some form of lameness. That tells me that something is very wrong with the way we manage our horses. And as the old saying goes 'no foot no horse'. A healthy strong foot that functions as nature designed it to is crucial to a sound horse. The moment you put a shoe on a foot you compromise the natural function - reducing circulation, reducing it's ability to absorb concussion, stopping it flexing/expanding and contracting, preventing the frog from any ground contact, changing the horses natural gaits, even changing the way the hoof hits the ground (toe first landing in shod horses is very common and puts a huge amount of extra strain on tendons and ligaments) etc etc. All those things lead to lame horses both short term and long term.

If shoeing was so good for horses why do we see so many horses with lameness issues?


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## SusieT (2 June 2010)

cptrayes-I would be delighted to see the research-and if it was there you would be able to show it to me. 
I have no problem with case studies-done by more than just barefoot fanatics or barefoot haters. 
You are just interested in making yourself out to be a horse foot/feeding god and criticising everyone else without anything to back it up. Typical barefoot evangelism-and doesn';t do anything for your cause to say' this is x because I say so'. 
There obviously is not any research, not taht I have found anyway (other than a yard doing some interesting work), and you cannot direct me to it-so you are just pulling theories out of thin air and touting them as fact...


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## cptrayes (2 June 2010)

SusieT said:



			cptrayes-I would be delighted to see the research-and if it was there you would be able to show it to me. 
I have no problem with case studies-done by more than just barefoot fanatics or barefoot haters. 
You are just interested in making yourself out to be a horse foot/feeding god and criticising everyone else without anything to back it up. Typical barefoot evangelism-and doesn';t do anything for your cause to say' this is x because I say so'. 
There obviously is not any research, not taht I have found anyway (other than a yard doing some interesting work), and you cannot direct me to it-so you are just pulling theories out of thin air and touting them as fact...
		
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Oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooh! Sticks and stones


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## SusieT (2 June 2010)

still no research?Not of any sort? 
I am quite gobsmacked you could write such reams of text in such an authoritative manner and then not be able to direct people to the information that led to your conclusions


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## rosie fronfelen (2 June 2010)

mrdarcy said:



			But that's the point. There are hundreds of thousands of horses that are broken - navicular, arthritis, tendon and ligament issues, spavins etc etc. A conservative estimate put it as 80% of domesticated horses at any one time have some form of lameness. That tells me that something is very wrong with the way we manage our horses. And as the old saying goes 'no foot no horse'. A healthy strong foot that functions as nature designed it to is crucial to a sound horse. The moment you put a shoe on a foot you compromise the natural function - reducing circulation, reducing it's ability to absorb concussion, stopping it flexing/expanding and contracting, preventing the frog from any ground contact, changing the horses natural gaits, even changing the way the hoof hits the ground (toe first landing in shod horses is very common and puts a huge amount of extra strain on tendons and ligaments) etc etc. All those things lead to lame horses both short term and long term.

If shoeing was so good for horses why do we see so many horses with lameness issues?
		
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look, MR.Darcy, shoeing suits our horses end of,i do not believe in this barefoot stuff,nor does any one else round these parts so, i am not getting into anymore arguements on this rediculous thread-so leave it and me be!!


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## Orangehorse (2 June 2010)

http://www.rockleyfarm.co.uk/Rockley_Farm/Home.html

This place is undertaking research in conjunction with Liverpool Veterinary School.


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## cptrayes (2 June 2010)

SusieT said:



			still no research?Not of any sort? 
I am quite gobsmacked you could write such reams of text in such an authoritative manner and then not be able to direct people to the information that led to your conclusions
		
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SusieT sweetheart you don't seem to have a great grasp of the use of search engines. I can find supporting information on Google for anything that you think is a personal assertion of mine. It isn't all peer reviewed research by any means, because who is going to finance research that results in drug free treatments?  Tell me which things you're having trouble finding more information on and I'll try to help you.

Or have you simply got an issue with the fact that I touch type at 50 words a minute and can write more than other people more easily, and a strong intellect so I write fluently and clearly???


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## SusieT (2 June 2010)

oh dear oh dear-I hope this has shown anyone thinking of following your 'advice' what sort of advice it is and the rather arrogant viewpoint it comes from. 
Luckily others are not nearly as self absorbed and actually interested in horses rather than building a false ego for themselves 
As I say-I can find or write supporting information for a two headed fish. Doesn't mean it isn't a pile of rubbish.


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## cptrayes (2 June 2010)

SusieT said:



			oh dear oh dear-I hope this has shown anyone thinking of following your 'advice' what sort of advice it is and the rather arrogant viewpoint it comes from. 
Luckily others are not nearly as self absorbed and actually interested in horses rather than building a false ego for themselves 
As I say-I can find or write supporting information for a two headed fish. Doesn't mean it isn't a pile of rubbish.
		
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Ah, so you aren't really interested in me helping you to answer your questions. You are, though into personal insult in a fairly big way. I thought all you were looking for was a fight. Looks like I'm right, doesn't it?


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## JC88 (2 June 2010)

My friend hunts barefoot, and even team chased without shoes on. gives the horse that bit of self preservation!!!


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## zefragile (2 June 2010)

SusieT said:



			oh dear oh dear-I hope this has shown anyone thinking of following your 'advice' what sort of advice it is and the rather arrogant viewpoint it comes from. 
Luckily others are not nearly as self absorbed and actually interested in horses rather than building a false ego for themselves 
As I say-I can find or write supporting information for a two headed fish. Doesn't mean it isn't a pile of rubbish.
		
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That's not fair. cptrayes is obviously passionate about the health of horses and their feet.


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## mrdarcy (2 June 2010)

SusieT said:



			still no research?Not of any sort? 
I am quite gobsmacked you could write such reams of text in such an authoritative manner and then not be able to direct people to the information that led to your conclusions
		
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I'm always a bit puzzled by requests for research. To put the shoe on the other foot (sorry about the pun!) where is the research that proves shoeing is so great for feet... e.g. that egg bar shoes and wedges are beneficial for navicular horses? Maybe it's out there and I'd be interested to read it if anyone could point me in the direct of published studies.

The best set of study data to show how welln a horse's hoof copes without shoes is a few million years of evolution. Evolution produced Equus Caballus. Modern domesticated horse is still Equus Caballus... however much humans interfere. If wild horses can cope without shoes then why not our domesticated horses? Same species, same physiology. Yes it's true they didn't evolve to carry the weight of a human being but in the wild their hooves carry them distances of 20 miles every single day. How many domesticated hooves work so hard? Covering such distances how do the hooves not get worn away to bloody stumps? Miracle? Fluke? Nope... just healthy feet functioning as nature intended.


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## mrdarcy (2 June 2010)

rosiefronfelen said:



			look, MR.Darcy, shoeing suits our horses end of,i do not believe in this barefoot stuff,nor does any one else round these parts so, i am not getting into anymore arguements on this rediculous thread-so leave it and me be!!
		
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I don't know exactly where you are but there are a lot of barefooters in Wales!


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## star (2 June 2010)

mrdarcy said:



			If shoeing was so good for horses why do we see so many horses with lameness issues?
		
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so keeping them barefoot will keep them all sound?  i think there are plenty of lame barefoot horses out there.  mine for one.  he's done his cruciate ligament.  he's never been shod and has the best feet i've ever laid eyes on.  hasn't stopped him damaging himself.  horses were designed to go lame.  foot balance issues certainly will make them more prone to lameness, but you can have balance issues barefoot as much as shod horses can.  keeping them barefoot does not guarantee you a sound horse.  equally, shoeing them will not make them go lame!


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## teddyt (2 June 2010)

mrdarcy said:



			The best set of study data to show how welln a horse's hoof copes without shoes is a few million years of evolution. Evolution produced Equus Caballus. Modern domesticated horse is still Equus Caballus... however much humans interfere. If wild horses can cope without shoes then why not our domesticated horses? Same species, same physiology. Yes it's true they didn't evolve to carry the weight of a human being but in the wild their hooves carry them distances of 20 miles every single day. How many domesticated hooves work so hard? Covering such distances how do the hooves not get worn away to bloody stumps? Miracle? Fluke? Nope... just healthy feet functioning as nature intended.
		
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Hello everyone 

mr darcy- i have to disagree with your comparison.



*If wild horses can cope without shoes then why not our domesticated horses?*

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because domesticated horses have been selecively bred for speed, jump, big movement, etc and not necessarily consideration of their feet.

because domesticated horses are kept in stables, on relatively small turnout, manufactured diets, etc

because domesticated horses have hoof oil painted on, they are wormed, vaccinated, rugged, etc

So you cant directly compare them because there are 100s of variables between how they live, many of which can affect the feet.


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## teddyt (2 June 2010)

mrdarcy said:



			I'm always a bit puzzled by requests for research. To put the shoe on the other foot (sorry about the pun!) where is the research that proves shoeing is so great for feet... e.g. that egg bar shoes and wedges are beneficial for navicular horses? Maybe it's out there and I'd be interested to read it if anyone could point me in the direct of published studies.

.
		
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Heres one-




			N Z Vet J. 2007 Jun;55(3):120-4.

The effect of plain, eggbar and 6 degrees-wedge shoes on the distribution of pressure under the hoof of horses at the walk.
Rogers CW, Back W.

Abstract
AIM: To quantify the effect of plain, wedged and eggbar shoes on the distribution of pressure under the hoof of horses at the walk, at selected areas of interest (AOI), to find scientific evidence for the perceived efficacy of these shoes in the treatment of palmar heel pain. METHODS: Six clinically sound adult Warmblood mares weighing 551 (SD 25) kg were shod (forelegs) with either plain, eggbar or 6 degrees-wedge shoes using a latin-square experimental design. All horses were shod by the same farrier, and each balanced and aligned for its individual conformation. Data were collected on three walking strides for each foreleg using a 550 x 405-mm pressure plate to quantify the distribution of pressure under each type of shoe at five AOI. RESULTS: Landing of the hoof with all three shoes was predominantly from lateral to medial (range 7-15 msec). Irrespective of the type of shoe, the greatest pressure was found in the lateral and medial toe (lateral 39.7 (SE 0.6) N/cm2 and medial 35.0 (SE 0.5) N/cm2) and the point of the toe (33.3 (SE 0.5) N/cm2). The lowest peak pressure was in the heel (lateral 25.9 (SE 0.5) N/cm2 and medial 21.1 (SE 0.4) N/cm2; p<0.05). Eggbar and wedge shoes increased total stance time (938 (SE 8) msec and 952 (SE 6) msec, respectively) compared with plain shoes (898 (SE 14) msec) (p<0.05). The wedge shoe reduced breakover compared with the plain and eggbar shoes (13.8% vs 15.8% and 14.5%, respectively; p<0.05). The eggbar shoe had lower total shoe peak pressure (29.5 (SE 0.7) N/cm2) than plain (31.8 (SE 0.5) N/cm2) and wedge (30.9 (SE 0.6) N/cm2) shoes. CONCLUSIONS AND *CLINICAL RELEVANCE: Both the eggbar and 6 degrees-wedge shoe offer advantages for palmar heel pain.* In comparison to the plain shoe, the eggbar shoe had less peak pressure at the heel AOI, and across the entire shoe, due to the greater bearing surface and the effect of the longer heel. The 6 degrees-wedge shoe had greater loading on the lateral heel AOI, but promoted earlier breakover at the toe. Both shoes offer advantages for the horse with palmar heel pain, though choice of shoe will depend on clear identification of the causative factors, to provide therapeutic shoeing that maximises the individual horse's response.
		
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And another-



			Equine Vet J Suppl. 2006 Aug;(36):377-82.

Effects of egg-bar shoes on the 3-dimensional kinematics of the distal forelimb in horses walking on a sand track.
Chateau H, Degueurce C, Denoix JM.

Abstract
REASONS FOR PERFORMING STUDY: Understanding of the biomechanical effects of egg-bar shoes remains incomplete because kinematic studies are usually performed on hard tracks and with skin markers that do not measure the actual 3-dimensional (3D) movements of the 3 digital joints. OBJECTIVE: To quantify the effects of egg-bar shoes on the 3D kinematics of the distal forelimb in horses walking on a sand track. METHODS: Four healthy horses were equipped with ultrasonic markers fixed surgically to the 4 distal segments of the left forelimb. The 3D movements of these segments were recorded while the horses were walking on a sand track. Rotations of the digital joints were calculated by use of a joint coordinate system. Data obtained with egg-bar shoes were compared to those obtained with standard shoes. Mean differences were expressed in a 0.95 confidence interval. RESULTS: With egg-bar shoes, the initial sinking of the heels into the ground during landing was reduced and the heels were raised by up to 5.1 degrees (3.5-6.7 degrees) compared to standard shoes at mid-stance. Concurrently, maximal flexion of the distal (DIPJ) and proximal (PIPJ) interphalangeal joints was increased by up to 3.2 degrees (2.2-4.2 degrees) and 1.8 degrees (1.1-2.5 degrees), respectively, at the beginning of the stance phase. At heel-off, extension of the DIPJ was reduced by 3.8 degrees (2.6-5.0 degrees). In extrasagittal planes of movement, egg-bar shoes prevented sinking of the medial quarter into the ground which led to a slight decrease of DIPJ medial rotation and lateromotion. CONCLUSIONS: Egg-bar shoes prevent the heels and, to a lesser extent, the medial side of the hoof from sinking into the ground on a sand track. They contribute to a decrease of DIPJ maximal extension at heel-off and to hoof stabilisation in the transversal plane. *POTENTIAL RELEVANCE: Such quantitative results support the clinical indications of egg-bar shoes*.
		
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Theres actually quite a bit, i just picked these 2 at random!


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## mrdarcy (2 June 2010)

teddyt said:



			because domesticated horses are kept in stables, on relatively small turnout, manufactured diets, etc

because domesticated horses have hoof oil painted on, they are wormed, vaccinated, rugged, etc

So you cant directly compare them because there are 100s of variables between how they live, many of which can affect the feet.
		
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Very true but as part of keeping a barefoot horse we recommend 24/7 turnout on Paddock Paradise systems, with very simple diets, avoiding manufactured feeds, don't recommend the use of hoof oil or any other commercial hoof products, recognise the problem that worming and vaccination can cause and preferably don't rug. In other words get the horse as close back to nature as possible - the closer you get the better the feet will be. Of course most people have to make compromises and recognise we can't provide a perfect environment. Because of this compromise not all horses will have perfect feet and that's where hoof boots come into play. Ideally we'd never have to use them but the reality is that they allow horses kept in less than optimum environments to keep working at the highest levels. The benefit over shoes is that at the end of the day the hoof boot comes off, the hoof wall has not been damaged/weakened by nails, and the horse goes back into the field with natural hooves that are able to flex and breath as nature intended.


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## mrdarcy (2 June 2010)

teddyt said:



			Heres one-



And another-


Theres actually quite a bit, i just picked these 2 at random!
		
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Cheers teddyt!

The first study involved six horses and the second study four horses. If we put forward barefoot research using such a tiny pool of horses we'd have been laughed out of town!


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## teddyt (2 June 2010)

mrdarcy said:



			Cheers teddyt!

The first study involved six horses and the second study four horses. If we put forward barefoot research using such a tiny pool of horses we'd have been laughed out of town!
		
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Yes, larger sample sizes are of course better. But some research in peer reviewed journals is better than no research


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## cptrayes (2 June 2010)

"Yes, larger sample sizes are of course better. But some research in peer reviewed journals is better than no research "

But is it better than anecdotal evidence supported by hundreds of barefoot horse owners?????

Discuss.


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## mrdarcy (2 June 2010)

teddyt said:



			Yes, larger sample sizes are of course better. But some research in peer reviewed journals is better than no research 

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Those two pieces of research also are only comparing egg bar shoes to normal shoes and more crucially don't give any indication of what time period the study was conducted over. It reads as if it was a very short term study, which is fine but how useful is it really? Shod horses don't wear shoes for a few days, they wear them for years - it's the long term effects that are really relevant.


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## rosie fronfelen (2 June 2010)

what a big headed cow you are communicating with, unbelievable!!!


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## teddyt (2 June 2010)

Peer reviewed published research has to stand up to a thorough assessment from other researchers and veterinary professionals. 
Even with a small sample size the conditions will have been standardised so the results can almost certainly be down to the 'treatment' or condition that the horse has been put under, rather than another influencing factor.
There is little room for opinion unless it is supported by empirical evidence.
The results are statistically analysed for significance- not just someones idea of significance.

for example, i could say that there are a significant number of people on HHO that are stupid . But that is just my opinion, based on anecdotal evidence. But if everyone was given a test under the same conditions and 75% passed, thereby proving they werent stupid then there would be hard evidence to say that a significant number of people on HHO are not stupid after all!


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## teddyt (2 June 2010)

mrdarcy said:



			Those two pieces of research also are only comparing egg bar shoes to normal shoes and more crucially don't give any indication of what time period the study was conducted over. It reads as if it was a very short term study, which is fine but how useful is it really? Shod horses don't wear shoes for a few days, they wear them for years - it's the long term effects that are really relevant.
		
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i just picked those studies at random, there are lots more. You can find lots of pros/cons of most research studies. Just because its published its not fact and you can look at everything from different angles. But you asked for examples, so i was just pointing out that there is research out there. Its not necessarily perfect or exactly answering what you want but its still valid and relevant in parts.




			what a big headed cow you are communicating with, unbelievable!!!
		
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Do you mean me?  Do elaborate! If it is directed at me then im afraid responses like that dont do you any favours. Mrdarcy, cptrayes and myself have had a few discussions without the need for insults. its called learning- explaining each others points of view and teaching each other things. I dont know why others cant do the same!


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## mrdarcy (2 June 2010)

teddyt said:



			Peer reviewed published research has to stand up to a thorough assessment from other researchers and veterinary professionals. 
Even with a small sample size the conditions will have been standardised so the results can almost certainly be down to the 'treatment' or condition that the horse has been put under, rather than another influencing factor.
There is little room for opinion unless it is supported by empirical evidence.
The results are statistically analysed for significance- not just someones idea of significance.

for example, i could say that there are a significant number of people on HHO that are stupid . But that is just my opinion, based on anecdotal evidence. But if everyone was given a test under the same conditions and 75% passed, thereby proving they werent stupid then there would be hard evidence to say that a significant number of people on HHO are not stupid after all!  

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Research can tell you anything you want it to... depending on the question you're asking and the validity of the research subjects and the researcher themselves. The research linking the MMR vaccine to autism was compelling enough to convince lots of people, including doctors and other researchers, yet it has now been shown to be bogus. There are many many examples of research projects that have come to one conclusion only to be contradicted by subsequent research project. 

Don't get me wrong I'd love to see more research done contrasting barefoot horses with shod horses - funding is always going to be an issue but hopefully it will be done.


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## soloequestrian (2 June 2010)

teddyt said:



			The results are statistically analysed for significance- not just someones idea of significance.
		
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I did a stats course a wee while ago, and the statistic they quoted was that in around 50% of published papers the statistics are inappropriately applied.

I'll refer back to my earlier post about peer-reviewed published work - how would anyone go about researching the effects of diet on feet in a controlled manner?  All the current studies to my knowledge are on specific lameness issues, not simply diet for 'normal' horses.  Would publishing a summary of a large number of case studies in a peer-reviewed journal be the only way to provide the sort of empirical evidence that keeps being requested?


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## rosie fronfelen (2 June 2010)

teddyt said:



			i just picked those studies at random, there are lots more. You can find lots of pros/cons of most research studies. Just because its published its not fact and you can look at everything from different angles. But you asked for examples, so i was just pointing out that there is research out there. Its not necessarily perfect or exactly answering what you want but its still valid and relevant in parts.



Do you mean me?  Do elaborate! If it is directed at me then im afraid responses like that dont do you any favours. Mrdarcy, cptrayes and myself have had a few discussions without the need for insults. its called learning- explaining each others points of view and teaching each other things. I dont know why others cant do the same!
		
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no, i did not mean you- i was referring to CP Trayes very arrogane and unnecessary retort to SusieTabout her typing abilities!!! nothing to do with barefoot or anything else, so totally uncalled for!!!! if thats how folk write these days thank god i am an old and outof date mare!!


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## teddyt (2 June 2010)

I would disagree with the statistic that 50% of statistics are inappropriately applied, for peer reviewed research anyway! You have to look at the whole paper to draw conclusions though, the stats analysis is just one part of it.

with regards to assessing the effect of diet on feet then you would need a group of horses all kept under the same conditions except for the variable you want to study. so you would have say, 10 horses fed oats, 10 fed just hay and 10 fed both then compare foot growth (for example) between the groups. You could then assess that (for example) the oats diet make the feet grow the slowest. If the horses were kept under different conditions e.g. some were stabled and some were in the field then that could influence the results, so you couldnt say for sure that the oats were the reason for slower foot growth.

Analysing a large no of case studies would be a good contribution but there would be many variables that could be argued as affecting conclusions.


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## teddyt (2 June 2010)

rosiefronfelen said:



			no, i did not mean you- i was referring to CP Trayes very arrogane and unnecessary retort to SusieTabout her typing abilities!!! nothing to do with barefoot or anything else, so totally uncalled for!!!! if thats how folk write these days thank god i am an old and outof date mare!!
		
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sorry, i jumped to the wrong conclusion. I thought ive barely joined in and im being called a big headed cow . im tired and need to go to bed!


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## soloequestrian (2 June 2010)

teddyt said:



			I would disagree with the statistic that 50% of statistics are inappropriately applied, for peer reviewed research anyway! You have to look at the whole paper to draw conclusions though, the stats analysis is just one part of it.
		
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That's what they said though, and they were a fairly heavyweight bunch of statisticians... they did say it's getting better these days though with a trend towards using a statistician rather than doing your own.  I'm rubbish at stats, just to clarify!



teddyt said:



			with regards to assessing the effect of diet on feet then you would need a group of horses all kept under the same conditions except for the variable you want to study. so you would have say, 10 horses fed oats, 10 fed just hay and 10 fed both then compare foot growth (for example) between the groups. You could then assess that (for example) the oats diet make the feet grow the slowest. If the horses were kept under different conditions e.g. some were stabled and some were in the field then that could influence the results, so you couldnt say for sure that the oats were the reason for slower foot growth.
		
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I totally see your point, but practically is anyone ever actually likely to do this? I think it would need some eccentric multimillionaire to fund it as a pet project as I can't imagine anyone else would.


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## cptrayes (2 June 2010)

rosiefronfelen said:



			no, i did not mean you- i was referring to CP Trayes very arrogane and unnecessary retort to SusieTabout her typing abilities!!! nothing to do with barefoot or anything else, so totally uncalled for!!!! if thats how folk write these days thank god i am an old and outof date mare!!
		
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Rosie I am puzzled by what you or Susie think you have actually contributed which will help any person or any horse in this discussion? 

You both seem happy to insult me. If you find it offensive that I mention that I touch type at 50 words a minute then you must be desperately easy to offend. If insulting me gives you some kind of kick, so be it. 

Meanwhile I will, as I always have, and always will, continue to put my own experience up for public scrutiny to try to help horses and horse owners who actually want to be helped.

I shall sleep well in the knowledge that there is a sound and happy horse in my barn who is going to give fifteen years of joy to the person who I give him away to, who would be dead  by now if I didn't believe what I believe.


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## pastie2 (2 June 2010)

I dont think that I have ever read so much waffle before in my entire life! You seem to baffle yourselves with bull****!


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## mrdarcy (2 June 2010)

teddyt said:



			I would disagree with the statistic that 50% of statistics are inappropriately applied, for peer reviewed research anyway! You have to look at the whole paper to draw conclusions though, the stats analysis is just one part of it.

with regards to assessing the effect of diet on feet then you would need a group of horses all kept under the same conditions except for the variable you want to study. so you would have say, 10 horses fed oats, 10 fed just hay and 10 fed both then compare foot growth (for example) between the groups. You could then assess that (for example) the oats diet make the feet grow the slowest. If the horses were kept under different conditions e.g. some were stabled and some were in the field then that could influence the results, so you couldnt say for sure that the oats were the reason for slower foot growth.

Analysing a large no of case studies would be a good contribution but there would be many variables that could be argued as affecting conclusions.
		
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The number of variables are huge. In the study you suggest surely you would have to use the same 10 horses - first fed oats, then fed hay, then fed both, because otherwise you are not comparing like with like. Each horse will have a different metabolism so comparing three different groups wouldn't give valid results, unless those groups were so large as to account for a myriad of differing metabolisms. I am sure there must be a statistical way to work out the minimum number of research subjects in order to make a study valid... or maybe not?

For now we have to make do with anecdotal evidence. I've seen the improvements in my own horses' health since going barefoot and there are many many other people out there reporting similar. Ultimately we can only go off our own experiences. But as an example I did a 25 mile endurance ride with my horse last Sunday. We completed it sound as a pound in two and a quarter hours, an average speed of 17.91kph. Yes we wore hoof boots but he's done very little work this year... both him and his feet are lacking in conditioning... but he did that ride in the fastest time he has ever achieved in his seven year endurance career. Do I put that down to the fact he no longer wears shoes. You bet I do! Also the fact that the day after his legs were totally without any filling - unheard of when he wore shoes. I don't even need to use cooling gels or bandages now to try and keep the filling down. None of which ever worked btw, though I spent a bloomin fortune trying every lotion, clay and gel under the sun. I wish I'd known it was as simple as removing his shoes - would have saved a fortune! But yes - he isn't a scientific research subject... just my horse that I've owned for three years and know inside out.


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## Spudlet (3 June 2010)

I always read these barefoot threads hoping to learn something, and I never do because of all the mud-slinging and 50 foot high horse mounting.


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## mrdarcy (3 June 2010)

Spudlet said:



			I always read these barefoot threads hoping to learn something, and I never do because of all the mud-slinging and 50 foot high horse mounting.
		
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I don't believe I've done any mud slinging... don't understand the second comment. But if you have any specific questions just ask... or even better come along and have a look at my horses.


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## MotherOfChickens (3 June 2010)

mrdarcy said:



			Research can tell you anything you want it to... depending on the question you're asking and the validity of the research subjects and the researcher themselves. QUOTE]


no, it can't and saying so demonstrates lack of comprehension of what science is and does. you can only lie to people using statistics to people who know nothing about statistics, and is that the researcher's fault?  I am a scientific researcher fwiw, with a fair few papers published in my particular field.

I am neither pro or anti-barefoot. from reading around the subject I have learned alot about feet and horse care, alot of which I have applied to my own horses-all of which live out on a track system. One is shod but has shoes off for 3 months of the year during which I use boots if needed, the other 2 (natives) are unshod (although one is still a youngster)-all are looked after by my excellent farrier. Even if you don't convert to barefoot, there is alot to be learned from it and no, not scientifically proven but that doesnt necessarily make it untrue and a scientist should never say otherwise.

I am always gobsmacked though, at the feelings this stirs up and the bull**** on both sides of the argument. I am involved in alot of endurance up here and I have to say, I have only seen non-competitive pleasure riders using boots, all the really serious endurancers have shod horses (and treed saddles). just an observation.
		
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## Spudlet (3 June 2010)

mrdarcy said:



			I don't believe I've done any mud slinging... don't understand the second comment. But if you have any specific questions just ask... or even better come along and have a look at my horses.
		
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I wasn't talking about you sweet - it's just the way these threads always seem to go!


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## mrdarcy (3 June 2010)

peteralfred said:



			I am involved in alot of endurance up here and I have to say, I have only seen non-competitive pleasure riders using boots, all the really serious endurancers have shod horses (and treed saddles). just an observation.
		
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I've done up to 65k in hoof boots, hoping to do my 80k at Cirencester in a couple of weeks and move onto ER's after that. I was with someone who'd just done the 80k at Dukeries this weekend in front boots, no boots behind, and I did my 40k competitive (as described in previous post). People have won and placed in endurance rides (races) in the last few seasons, distances up to 120k, including winning the 80k ER at Barbary in 2008. I know lots of endurance riders (and there are more each season) who are serious endurance competitors who compete in boots or completely barefoot. So we are out there. In the States there are even more barefoot and barefoot/booted endurance riders. There's a great blog here about a horse who is long listed for the WEG:

http://feiredhorse.blogspot.com/

She competes in glue-on Easyboots and trains in Gloves. They were the AERC 100 mile National Champions last year. Oh and they compete in FreeForm treeless saddles! 

Treeless is a seperate argument altogether but I was in the vet gate at Dukeries on Saturday and saw at least two or three of the 90k - 160k competitors in treeless saddles. So again, they are out there, competing seriously.


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## teddyt (3 June 2010)

People getting on their high horse i think mrdarcy? (eta- the 2nd comment from spudlet)

With regards to the research, there are lots of ways it can be done, it depends on the experimental design. Yes, having each horse undergo each diet is the best way to do it and this obviously takes more time and hence money. I just gave a very crude example but there are lots of ways to tes an outcome.

soloequestrian- so who will do it. Good question. Businesses obviously do some research if the outcome might be commercially favourable e.g. feed companies. Other than that its mainly universities, charities or research groups, such as the animal health trust. The latter get their funding from running a vets practice, grants from welfare charities, etc. There are actually alot of different groups who could do the research and the decision behind carrying out a project, if not for commercial reasons, is usually for welfare improvement. Although performance related research is also a valid reason.


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## MotherOfChickens (3 June 2010)

mrdarcy said:



			I've done up to 65k in hoof boots, hoping to do my 80k at Cirencester in a couple of weeks and move onto ER's after that. I was with someone who'd just done the 80k at Dukeries this weekend in front boots, no boots behind, and I did my 40k competitive (as described in previous post). People have won and placed in endurance rides (races) in the last few seasons, distances up to 120k, including winning the 80k ER at Barbary in 2008. I know lots of endurance riders (and there are more each season) who are serious endurance competitors who compete in boots or completely barefoot. So we are out there. In the States there are even more barefoot and barefoot/booted endurance riders. There's a great blog here about a horse who is long listed for the WEG:

http://feiredhorse.blogspot.com/

She competes in glue-on Easyboots and trains in Gloves. They were the AERC 100 mile National Champions last year. Oh and they compete in FreeForm treeless saddles! 

Treeless is a seperate argument altogether but I was in the vet gate at Dukeries on Saturday and saw at least two or three of the 90k - 160k competitors in treeless saddles. So again, they are out there, competing seriously.
		
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good-not sure why I am not seeing it up here then but it does seem that barefoot is a bit easier in say, hotter parts of the US rather than Scotland. Not everything will suit every horse-I am not anti-treeless or barefoot but think the barefooter's passion/fanaticism puts normal horsey folk off-you catch more flies with honey as they say  (not aimed at any one person).
I tried to take my horse barefoot but it didnt work although another physical issue has since come to light with him this year that probably didnt help. So I will probably try again next year once this issue is resolved. Boots are improving in design all the time and I use the gloves and am pretty impressed with them. I do wonder about the increased breakover with them though.


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## mrdarcy (3 June 2010)

teddyt said:



			People getting on their high horse i think mrdarcy? (eta- the 2nd comment from spudlet)

.
		
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LOL - I can be so dumb sometimes!


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## mrdarcy (3 June 2010)

peteralfred said:



			good-not sure why I am not seeing it up here then but it does seem that barefoot is a bit easier in say, hotter parts of the US rather than Scotland. Not everything will suit every horse-I am not anti-treeless or barefoot but think the barefooter's passion/fanaticism puts normal horsey folk off-you catch more flies with honey as they say  (not aimed at any one person).
I tried to take my horse barefoot but it didnt work although another physical issue has since come to light with him this year that probably didnt help. So I will probably try again next year once this issue is resolved. Boots are improving in design all the time and I use the gloves and am pretty impressed with them. I do wonder about the increased breakover with them though.
		
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If you want to chat to a very experienced trimmer who covers the whole of Scotland get in touch with Nick Hill at: http://www.cloverroseequine.co.uk/ No nonsence advice from someone who absolutely knows his stuff.

I do take your point about passion/fanaticism and TBH it's one of the things that used to put me off barefoot (was always a no questions asked shoer before). It's weird though... once you take the shoes off and see all the benefits you do kind of get consumed by a huge passion for barefoot and want to share it with people. Human nature I guess... I do try to rein myself in but not always sucessfully!


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## soloequestrian (3 June 2010)

teddyt said:



			soloequestrian- so who will do it. Good question. Businesses obviously do some research if the outcome might be commercially favourable e.g. feed companies. Other than that its mainly universities, charities or research groups, such as the animal health trust. The latter get their funding from running a vets practice, grants from welfare charities, etc. There are actually alot of different groups who could do the research and the decision behind carrying out a project, if not for commercial reasons, is usually for welfare improvement. Although performance related research is also a valid reason.
		
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But this is kind of the point - would any of these you've suggested actually do such a general study?  I'd be astonished if they did.  It would be reasonably easy to design a study, and it's also reasonably easy to think who would be capable of running one, but in the real world I think pigs will fly before anyone actually does this kind of work......
It's relatively straighforward to 'suck it and see' with having barefoot horses so I don't really understand why people are so hung up on having to see scientific evidence of it's benefits, of a kind which isn't likely to appear, before they give it a try?

Gaa must get on with work but this thread is too diverting.


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## rosie fronfelen (3 June 2010)

CP, why the need to "contribute" to this discussion? the question was asked and i answered it! as for your arrogance regarding you typing abilities- does that make us all a load of thickos if we cannot achieve your wonderful timings? as for me, i can only write this with one finger, so i must be the dunce of the thread!! i appreciate you have done alot of research on this barefoot thing, but t makes not an iota of difference to me!! so you a "mrdarcy" can trundle on, writing oodles of epistles to all your followers whilst i can arrange for the farrier to come and shoe our horse to get him fit for next month.


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## MotherOfChickens (3 June 2010)

thanks for the link MrDarcy 


wrt a study-it's more who would pay for it. you don't necessarily want a business funding it as they may be reluctant to publish. research money for equines is really lacking in the UK-actually, research money for most things is lacking in the UK unless it can be realistically dressed up as a welfare issure.

I'm a scientist and I like rigorous methodology-I don't like emotive language and don't care for 'horses are all happy and fantastic in the wild', because the likelihood is that they arent. The likes of Jaime Jackson have done alot of good but he is one man, with his own personal prejudices. Good science doesnt permit that!


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## teddyt (3 June 2010)

soloequestrian said:



			But this is kind of the point - would any of these you've suggested actually do such a general study?  I'd be astonished if they did.  .
		
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You'd be astonished at what has been published, honestly! e.g. 'The influence of feed tub placement and spacing on feeding behaviour of mature horses'   Who gives a monkeys about that? but someone obviously did!

i agree with peteralfred- its more about funding. And demand/need for the research. I personally think there is a need for research in this field simply because its growing. IMO to protect our horses from those not so ethical the trimmers should be qualified and regulated by law and research done to demonstrate the effectiveness or otherwise of certain techniques. I see producing research as a good thing to help the 'marketing' and promotion of barefoot- not a bad thing or as many suggest that its not needed. I think it would support many of the pro arguments and give them more credibility to alot of people, including the sceptical.


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## Spudlet (3 June 2010)

As in - not just a high horse - a 50 foot high horse

I don't know, my comedic talents are just wasted round here


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## soloequestrian (3 June 2010)

teddyt said:



			You'd be astonished at what has been published, honestly! e.g. 'The influence of feed tub placement and spacing on feeding behaviour of mature horses'   Who gives a monkeys about that? but someone obviously did!
		
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But that's the sort of study that could easily be done by an honours student, and if they had a pro-active enough supervisor could get published.  The sort of thing that would have to be done to look at the effects of various factors on feet would be massive and long-term, which is back to the funding as you say, and which no-one is going to fund. 




teddyt said:



			i agree with peteralfred- its more about funding. And demand/need for the research. I personally think there is a need for research in this field simply because its growing. IMO to protect our horses from those not so ethical the trimmers should be qualified and regulated by law and research done to demonstrate the effectiveness or otherwise of certain techniques. I see producing research as a good thing to help the 'marketing' and promotion of barefoot- not a bad thing or as many suggest that its not needed. I think it would support many of the pro arguments and give them more credibility to alot of people, including the sceptical.
		
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Definitely not a bad thing, but what I'm saying is that it's highly unlikely to ever happen.  We had the discussion about trimming and the law in another thread - also very diverting!


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## teddyt (3 June 2010)

soloequestrian said:



			Definitely not a bad thing, but what I'm saying is that it's highly unlikely to ever happen.
		
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It wont land in the lap of the uknhcp or others who would benefit, no. But if the governing bodies of barefoot in the uk lobbied for it then it might. 

And actually a huge amount could even be achieved by degree students because they have access to gait analysis systems, treadmills, force plates and large numbers of horses! Again though, for any volume of research to be done the barefoot people have to create an interest and ask for it, provide ideas and databases, even horses. Otherwise they will just have to sit and wait for a student to be interested.

I appreciate its not the barefoot followers that are asking for research but it really should be! Hiding behind 'we've got 100s of case studies to prove it works' will only get them so far and i believe that if research was carried out it would get them much further 

Charities like WHW fund research. I think there is a strong welfare benefit in doing a study on, say, going barefoot as a treatment for navicular. But WHW arent going to knock on uknhcps door and say here we go have several thousands of pounds to research it. But if the uknhcp (for example) went to  WHW with a valid study idea then you never know!

Until then i honestly think you will find it very hard to persuade thousands of vets and farriers to throw out decades of traditional treatment and shoeing research on the say so of a minority, based just on case studies that have not been evaluated or corroborated in any way.


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## MotherOfChickens (3 June 2010)

teddyt said:



			Charities like WHW fund research. I think there is a strong welfare benefit in doing a study on, say, going barefoot as a treatment for navicular. But WHW arent going to knock on uknhcps door and say here we go have several thousands of pounds to research it. But if the uknhcp (for example) went to  WHW with a valid study idea then you never know!
		
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I do agree with your post but research funding is hotly contested and it would take alot more than a few thousand to pay for something worthwhile that doesnt look like an undergrad student carried it out. I don't think that this is a big enough subject atm to warrant a big grant (unfortunately), although when you see what money is wasted on it's very frustrating! 
I am regularly involved in writing grant applications for several hundred thousand pounds and these arent 'expensive' projects and believe me, it doesnt go on scientist's wages!


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## cptrayes (3 June 2010)

There often seems to be a fair amount of suspicion about the motives of people who advocate a barefoot approach. I can understand why people suspect the motives of paid trimmers and the organisations that charge to train them. I'd just like to point out that I earn no money from barefoot, or indeed from horses, in any way whatsoever, and I support no particular trimming organisation. I advocate using a trimmer who can show you working horses, be they qualified or not, farrier or not. My evanglism comes from dealing with one crippled horse, another under a death sentence, and numerous others of various types performing at a high level with no shoes. 

I don't think the research that sceptics want is going to get done, but I think that we will win people over by example now there are increasing numbers of us. Two grooms at my local training centre now have their horses shoeless. By the time they had seen my fifth horse arriving shoeless to train for one day eventing, they realised there was something in it! By a fluke of perfect timing, the head of my Veterinary Practice was in the yard where they have a hospital as I rode through (after a six mile farm ride on rock hard ground) on what he knew was a navicular horse who had been written off twelve weeks and one day earlier. He was pretty interested before, now he is actively researching barefoot rehabilitation for his clients with similar horses.

It will grow and grow now, simply because there are so many thousands of horses in this country doing work they can do perfectly well without shoes on and in the end people who own them will get wise to the fact that they have no need to pay for shoes.


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## teddyt (3 June 2010)

peteralfred- I agree, thats part of what i was trying to say- the barefoot bodies need to make it a big enough subject and this will take years. they need to be proactive. At the moment they dont want research, they think case studies are sufficient and so they are sitting back saying 'look! we're working wonders without shoes, look at what we're doing'. I disagree this is sufficient, imo they need to have a more 'professional' outlook and look at the bigger picture. They are gaining a lot of support from horse owner themselves but they need to be looking at the bigger picture and teaching vets and farriers on a larger scale. And to do that i believe they need research.

if they started at universities and got a few studies going it would then make it easier for them to apply for the grants that will give them weightier research. From little acorns big oak trees grow! Its a long process which i think needs starting now.

cptrayes- i dont underestimate the value case studies such as yours provide. im not saying they are cr*p. Full stop. They are indeed valuable contributions and maybe i havnt said that before. But you are one little fish in a very big pond and not many would have the ability and knowledge that you appear to have. therefore their credibility is much less and more likely to be disregarded by vets, etc. Also, although you do a good job telling peole on here- how else does your contribution get to all the vets, etc out there? And for people who dont know you how do they choose to believe you over someone who may be saying the same as you but with very little experience to base their opinions on?


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## cptrayes (3 June 2010)

Teddyt,

I think boards like this are brilliant. Every time someone posts in veterinary now there are several people who say "my horse was written off and I took it barefoot and saved it", so at least now people know that there are alternatives even if their vets and farriers aren't aware. That awareness will get a boost when the Leahurst/Rockley research is published even though the numbers are small again. 

The Leahurst/Rockley research will land on insurance actuaries' desks and there is no greater driver than money. I can see the E&L risk assessor rubbing his hands with absolute glee at the prospect of not having to pay out for loss of use on a horse with navicular syndrome or foot-ddft lesions. If that doesn't give it the oxygen of publicity I don't know what will!

For the mainstream, it's spreading exponentially now. H&H magazine a week or so ago had a comment by a County Show judge saying that she didn't like how many barefoot horses she was seeing in the show ring.  I see a very limited future for the income stream that farriers are receiving from shoeing ponies (at all) and horses that are only working in arenas and short hacks.

There will still be  problems for those people who want to do it but whose horses have metabolic issues which stop them from ever being able to do tough surfaces. Even then, there are again plenty of people on this forum and others who can advise on diet and/or boots if they have a trimmer who isn't diet aware.

In a year things have changed beyond recognition. A year ago on this forum people were afraid to post because of the savagery of some of the attacks. Now, while we still get a few trolls looking for attention, we always have a rattling good discussion with sensible people like you. In another year who knows where we'll be?

In the end I don't think it will be research that wins people over, it will be the fact that everywhere they look, in all disciplines, they are seeing working barefoot horses. Shoes will still have their place but we may finally be rid of centuries of legacy when they used to keeping horses sound in sub optimal conditions by nailing steel to their feet , so that they could work as taxi engines, tractors and war vehicles, .


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## Fii (3 June 2010)

I find this debate very interesting, although i have stated in other threads, that i would not have anyone but a farrier trim my horses (and i stand by that), i am very interasted in 
cptrayes theries on feeding .
 I have two ponies that are prone to laminitis, and a horse prone to abcesses, non are shod at the moment, in fact non of my horses are shod, but they are not in hard work so only for that reason, BUT i would love to be able to ride them all the time without shoes!!
 I am quite open minded, and am willing to try new things to see if they will work for my horses.
 Cyptreys, if you have the time, could you pm me with some more details on feed and additives for laminitics, mine are currently off grass, with, rough hay, and three small feeds of happy hoof, they are not stabled, but roaming the yard, with axcess to a stable if they want.


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## cptrayes (4 June 2010)

Fii I'm  not an expert on laminitis, my case was very unusual - a fit eventer who probably had Insulin issues, in retrospect. If you post your query on the UKNHCP forum you'll find  a lot of people with some very difficult lami cases who will help you. I do know, though, that there are people on there who's lami horses can't take happy hoof as a feed. And that the recommendation is generally to soak the hay for 12-24 hours to dissolve out the sugar in it. Hope that helps.


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## Fii (4 June 2010)

Ok thanks.
 I am soaking most of the hay, the better stuff, but the last small bale was quite old and sun bleached.


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## lillith (8 June 2010)

As someone who was very very interested in a behind the barefoot concept I find it sad that the best its advocates can come up with is "why should I do it for you, look it up yourself".

Personally if I had acess to the type of information you regularly post cptrayes I would keep a list of links to back myself up with.

A lot of the barefoot sites say an awful lot and often allude vaguely to research but I have yet to find links to it other than the incomplete (but interesting) Rockley Farm stuff. There was a name mentioned a while ago which I have forgotten but when I googled the guy (scholar) all I got where his credentials and no details of his research.

It is in fact very difficult to get hold of the research I want on anything now that I am out of the uni life and no longer have free acess to all the journals I would like to. Of course I could pay for it but I'm afraid food for me comes first on that.

Oh and if anyone remembers I did try to do some questionaire based stuff to get some stats out of but I got very little uptake from barefooters either here or on the barefoot forums and a couple of other forums.


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