# Monty Roberts yesterday - thoughts?



## Rowreach (25 March 2018)

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_N18QWfJxWw&feature=youtu.be


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## Red-1 (25 March 2018)

I went to see Monty Roberts once live, and I did see some wonderful timing and progress BUT I also thought that although the man had "it" he did not share enough with the audience to allow them to get similar results. In this way it was a great piece of entertainment, and eye opening as regards what is possible, and it did make me look wider for my experience. 

However, even though he has been local to me since I have not been back. I felt uncomfortable at the way the horses are progressed as quickly as possible in such a highly distracting environment. It felt like it was not 100% to the horses' interests. Not that I thought it was 'cruel' or anything, just that I would not personally put my horse through this experience, but having see what he did, I had the impetus to study further.

 Some  other people I have enjoyed either watching or having lessons with very much. Mark Rashid (been to America to ride with him several times), Richard Maxwell (watched several demos), Andrew and Manu McLean (had private lessons with my horse) and several more were great and expanded my thinking greatly. I have also found some, who I won't name, where I sadly took my horse and found that they were all about the video, and in real life it was not a great experience. 

With this video I was sad for the horse, the owner and the rider too. In my eyes the horse never lost the snatchy way of moving that would have signalled readiness to progress. The body language was all wrong to think she was comfortable to do more.

The rider was a great jockey, only came off when the saddle slipped (twice). I think she was incredibly lucky to be able to dis-tangle herself from the stirrup or rein, whatever she was tangled in. But, the attendants did not panic and rush up and panic the horse, so that was due to their experience. 

For the saddle to slip twice I think they could do with a better saddle and/or tighter girth! But most of all to give the horse more time.

Would I go view another Monty Roberts performance? No. 
Would I give a horse for him to demo on? No. 
Am I angry for the horse? No, not really, I bet a whole lot more horses have a lot worse treatment than that. 

I am grateful that watching his demo years ago gave me the kick to go look at other stuff.

I do feel for the horse's owner. I hope Monty did a bit more work in private with the horse as I would not fancy taking her home and starting again, or indeed trying to persuade someone else to pick it up from there.


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## tristar (25 March 2018)

no  way was that horse ready to be backed or got on, learn a big lesson from watching that horses body language and never forget that a horse will tell when it is ready to be mounted.

anyone with experience of backing horses would have seen it like a red flag, don`t give horses bad experiences.

i have never trusted monty roberts methods, a case of people thicker than him following, that horse meant to get that rider off, he has taught that horse the worst thing, that it can dump the rider.

and as for not helping the rider when tangled just shows a lack of instinctive response to a bad situation, with horses i think sometimes you need to act instantly.

i can see clearly that the horse is tense in the back, that transfers to stiff movements of its legs, it is a timebomb ready to explode.

thanks for putting that up, reminds me to next time when backing or mounting to listen and take notice.


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## Red-1 (25 March 2018)

I just read the bottom of the Youtube write up for the video...

"Kerri-Anne fitzpatrick
Published on 24 Mar 2018
The first of the Equine Welfare Network charity horses to be chosen to take part in the Monty Roberts 2018 Tour at Cavan Equestrian Center was Freisian X EWN Miss Mia Wallace. We asked could Monty and his team tame her feisty nature? Mia has a &#8220;sharp temperament and if fresh is not easy to handle. She looks pretty but her attitude is not pink! Monty and (amazing to say the least ) Jo Lowes are going to continue with Mia on day 2 tomorrow a small number of tickets are still available."


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## Cortez (25 March 2018)

I might pop over today, but having seen Monty a couple of times it's not really something I feel the need to watch over and over. He's a great showman and communicator, but this is really just a "show"; neither the audience nor the horses are going to take anything lasting away from it. He doesn't do anything "wrong" per se, interesting yes, but I'm not sure that is wildly useful for the average viewer


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## DabDab (25 March 2018)

Red's analysis is pretty spot on doe me.

TBH, I'm surprised that hasn't happened before at one of his demos. Most horses aren't too reactive and they can cope with the speed of learning, but this horse was reactive and was just pushed along too quick for its temperament so it was hitting the panic button.


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## junglefairy (25 March 2018)

Why do horsey audiences never have the common sense to keep calm and quiet?

Ive seen Monty Roberts live and was impressed. However, for these types of demos I think you need horses with a less sharp/sensitive temperament than the mare in the video. He misjudged it and I expect that, as a consequence, the mare will need more work than she may otherwise.

As with most things, I take the bits of Montys methods that I like and leave the rest.


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## Fellewell (25 March 2018)

Well there's one for the craic.

What's that famous quote from 'Lethal Weapon' ;-)


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## MotherOfChickens (25 March 2018)

DabDab said:



			Red's analysis is pretty spot on doe me.

TBH, I'm surprised that hasn't happened before at one of his demos. Most horses aren't too reactive and they can cope with the speed of learning, but this horse was reactive and was just pushed along too quick for its temperament so it was hitting the panic button.
		
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it has. and I know how long it took to get that horse back on track.


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## holeymoley (25 March 2018)

3 minutes in and you can see that horse isn't ready for anyone on its back. I've seen him live twice- he's alright I don't 'do' the sob stories. I feel the types he works with on the night are usually good tempered and biddable to work with so with a bit of time the result is usually positive. The atmosphere itself is a big ask of horses that aren't 100%.


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## Rowreach (25 March 2018)

I was uncomfortable when I heard that the charity was taking four horses to be used at the demo.  I have no idea whether this is normal?  It seems to me that putting rescued horses and ponies through travel, staying in a strange place, being handled by strangers in a stressful atmosphere in front of hundreds of reactive people might not be the best thing for any of them?

When I saw the video I was speechless.


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## HashRouge (25 March 2018)

I actually didn't see anything much to dislike in the video. The horse was fine initially with the rider on her back, but I think scared herself slightly in the trot. Had she just walked, I suspect she would have been fine. The rider then got back on, no problem. I think Monty has a really nice way with horses - they obviously react well to him. The big issue of course is that he generally does not work with them long term - the work will have to be carried on by someone else afterwards, and not every rider/ handler is capable, especially with a sharper horse.


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## Rowreach (25 March 2018)

HashRouge said:



			I actually didn't see anything much to dislike in the video. The horse was fine initially with the rider on her back, but I think scared herself slightly in the trot. Had she just walked, I suspect she would have been fine. The rider then got back on, no problem. I think Monty has a really nice way with horses - they obviously react well to him. The big issue of course is that he generally does not work with them long term - the work will have to be carried on by someone else afterwards, and not every rider/ handler is capable, especially with a sharper horse.
		
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The rider came off twice ...


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## HashRouge (25 March 2018)

Rowreach said:



			The rider came off twice ...
		
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Oops, I skipped through a bit so must have missed the second fall!


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## PoppyAnderson (25 March 2018)

I think it's unforgivable that the saddle slipped and that the rider became tangled. She could have easily been seriously injured or even killed. A reactive horse with a person falling off and 'trapped' by their feet can go nuclear. **** can and does happen with horses but what happened here was absolutely preventable.


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## ester (25 March 2018)

I wonder why they are using a LW saddle and a polypad which of all set ups seems fairly likely to roll sideways fairly quick and not give them a good experience if it goes wrong. 

I didn't like the 'she learned all this before' without seemingly any evidnce for that, it seemed like passing the buck.


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## JillA (25 March 2018)

I felt he was being unnecessarily rough on leading the mare around - she was stressed and afraid to really express that it all worried her, until it had to erupt. A bit more time leading her in a relaxed manner (and I have seen Mark Rashid do that in less than 5 minutes) would have been a better investment - but isn't so showy  
I also think he should stress so much more that  he can do it because this is many many years in the making, so the "local experts" don't all go out and try backing their young horses without the preparation we all know is essential


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## Orangehorse (25 March 2018)

That horse was on high alert, wasn't it?  In his book he wrote that he did a demo in Ireland once, supposingly starting an unbroken horse that went to attack him - obviously someone had tried previously to break it and failed, so he is up against things like that.

I helped at a Demo once and Monty Roberts was a real gent, he spent quite a long time speaking to us helpers.  The demo horses do get extra help and follow up if it needed, and they are all examined for soundness before being used for the demos.


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## milliepops (25 March 2018)

ester said:



			I wonder why they are using a LW saddle and a polypad which of all set ups seems fairly likely to roll sideways fairly quick and not give them a good experience if it goes wrong. 

I didn't like the 'she learned all this before' without seemingly any evidnce for that, it seemed like passing the buck.
		
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Yup, and what's more, they've added to anything she already knew - as mentioned by another poster above this horse now knows what to do to remove its rider.  Good reminder to all of us with green horses to progress absolutely at their pace and make every experience a good one (as much as possible!  )  Set them up to succeed.


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## TheMule (25 March 2018)

What a shame for the horse, just what you really dont need to happen in those precious first few moments on its back. Unfortunately they've now created a problem thats very hard to un-do. 
Personally I don't really like the pressurised time frame and the stressful environment for starting a young horse and wouldn't choose it myself


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## Goldenstar (25 March 2018)

Horse not ready and was saying it was not ready .
In a non entertainment suitation you might have leant across the horse then put away for the next session .
So they then rushed the rider on board who then promptly sat up and down on the horses back and surprise surprise the horse bucked the rider off and of course because they are compressing what most of us do over a period of weeks into minutesand  they have no voice training in place when it goes wrong there&#8217;s nothing you can do to save the situation.
The rider was lucky not to hurt .
Backing as entertainment is something that makes me very very cross it betrays the horse .


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## be positive (25 March 2018)

milliepops said:



			Yup, and what's more, they've added to anything she already knew - as mentioned by another poster above this horse now knows what to do to remove its rider.  Good reminder to all of us with green horses to progress absolutely at their pace and make every experience a good one (as much as possible!  ) 


 Set them up to succeed.
		
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This mare was set up to fail, maybe not intentionally but MR should be more than aware of body language it is supposed to be what he is all about, he did not read her at all, continued without doing anything to help, the second explosion was obviously going to happen and then finished without at least getting her settled without a rider, I wonder what happened later after everyone went home as it is extremely unlikely he will bring her in today without trying to work her out of  sight.

None of it sits well with me, I have never felt backing young horses is a spectator sport, sorting loading issues and some other problems maybe but not something that should be done quietly without fuss, at the right time for the individual, set them up to succeed and set them up for life.


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## Cortez (25 March 2018)

It is entirely likely that the horse was a failed breaker in the first place. Having broken horses for a living I have experience - it is a very Irish thing to do; bring along a supposedly "unbroken" animal and then let you find out the hard way it is a problem horse that someone else has tried and failed to train. That session will have firmly cemented in her mind that getting people off is the way to go, so next time it will be even more difficult to get her on-side. Sad for the horse, dangerous for the rider. Maybe Monty is losing his touch.


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## DabDab (25 March 2018)

be positive said:



			This mare was set up to fail, maybe not intentionally but MR should be more than aware of body language it is supposed to be what he is all about, he did not read her at all, continued without doing anything to help, the second explosion was obviously going to happen and then finished without at least getting her settled without a rider, I wonder what happened later after everyone went home as it is extremely unlikely he will bring her in today without trying to work her out of  sight.

None of it sits well with me, I have never felt backing young horses is a spectator sport, sorting loading issues and some other problems maybe but not something that should be done quietly without fuss, at the right time for the individual, set them up to succeed and set them up for life.
		
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The first time the horse trotted I thought it must've been by accident, then I realised they were trying to trot and chasing her on and my heart just jumped into my mouth. The whole situation, while not ideal, was save able up to that point. If they had just done a couple of circuits in walk and called it a day, but he pretty much chased her into that second broncing fit 

It certainly seems like it was a case of the show must go on over and above a proper assessment of the horse's needs. 

I would've been mortified if the horse was mine


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## ester (25 March 2018)

I don't understand why they trotted, he specifically said for most they would just walk but because she had had the incident if she wanted to trot they would let her, I'm not sure how much she wanted that 'trot'. 

All the horses are usually worked and assess prior to the show so enough time to know she might be a bit hot about it. 

I guess it does also show that the Ardall is not a total substitute for a real person. Would be interesting to see her reaction to that previously.


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## Turitea (25 March 2018)

Not the best of MR's displays but I still think he actually knows what he does. Still not a fan of all this "horse whispery" stuff but there are certain elements in his work that strike a chord with me.


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## Apercrumbie (25 March 2018)

That horse has a hell of a buck and has unfortunately just learned twice in quick succession the worst lesson for a baby to learn - how to get a human off its back. I was unfortunately once caught unawares by a youngster and it took a long, long time to get rid of the rodeo pony reaction once the damage was done. You need a gutsy rider with a very, very sticky bum so they eventually learn that it doesn't work. I think MR misread the horse here - she wasn't calm enough before the rider got on and was never comfortable with the situation.


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## Tiddlypom (25 March 2018)

Cortez said:



			Maybe Monty is losing his touch.
		
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You could well be right. The Monty I saw when H&H first brough him over to Stoneleigh in 1989 would not have proceeded as he did in the video. There was a 'remedial' 3yo there for backing and Monty scaled right back on his 'get them ridden away in 30 mins' pitch, he told the owner that it would not be appropriate at all for their horse. Instead, he worked on the horse behind the scenes for the three days of the demo.

My own late chesnut git (sec DxTB) was there as a genuinely unbacked 3yo. I volunteered him for the demo because he was brash and opinionated, and he caved in to the Monty magic in an embarrasingly easy fashion. However, he remained brash and opinionated for the rest of his 25 years.


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## daffy44 (25 March 2018)

I dont think backing should be entertainment.

That was a very brave rider, and that first fall was potentially lethal.  They proceeded way too fast for that particular horse, and all it has learnt is that it can get rid of its rider when it wants.  I struggle to see that that particular horse came away with anything positive from that session, and I certainly wouldnt call it backed.


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## AdorableAlice (25 March 2018)

Blimey, the cob spoke and no one listened to her.  She reminded me of Ted, very similar reactive and panicky behaviour.  

It was days before Ted's breaker sat up and weeks before trotting started.  These types simply cannot be rushed.


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## JFTDWS (25 March 2018)

That certainly wasn't comfortable viewing.  The horse didn't look ready for any of it, and I can't imagine there's anything positive it's taken away from that.

Credit to the horse for standing and not killing the rider while she was on the floor and tangled up though.


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## SEL (25 March 2018)

I saw a Monty demo in the early days before it was all about filming for a 30 min slot. He worked with an abused pony that was turning somersaults if anything touched its hind quarters. That demo was in a different league to what I've seen in current years. A huge amount of patience, understanding and openess with the owners that the pony was likely to be that reactive for life.

Nowadays they seem to be after the "quick wins". What can I back in 30 mins? What can I load? Not my thing. Don't understand why a youngster needs to be all done for a 1/2 hour t.v. slot. I could see that 2nd fall coming. Sitting here going noooooo at the screen. Alright talking to the audience but focus needs to be on the horse.


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## scats (25 March 2018)

I watched it and felt genuinely sad for the horse.  It wasnt ready to be trotted and rushed like that but unfortunately for the purposes of entertainment they seemed to be wanting to get further with it than just sit up and walk around.

Id have hoped MR would have picked up on the fact that it was quite wired and not ready, done what was within the horses comfort zone and left it at that, explaining to the crowd that this horse would need a slower approach. 

I sort of wish he would stick to things like loading for these sorts of demos.  That horse has had a seriously poor experience there and now knows how it can successfully remove a rider.


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## be positive (25 March 2018)

Not sure if the following comment that has just gone on the EWN facebook page is true but it puts an even worse view on what went on yesterday.

Lyndsay Martin This horse was rehomed as NON RIDDEN, due to severe injuries sustained in a horse walker including a broken hock. This is major negligence on your behalf to not inform people of the horses past truthfully

3m


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## splashgirl45 (25 March 2018)

just watched this and was gobsmacked......that horse was so tense there is no way it was ready to be sat on.   i was amazed that he legged the rider straight back on and let her loose.  very dangerous IMO.  i dont have loads of experience with backing horses as have only done my own, but surely if they had to keep her in there for the sake of the demo, why not lunge her for 5 or 10 mins to hopefully calm everything down, and if she didnt calm enough then dont put the rider on!!!!and show ground techniques for controlling her as she seems very bargy and strong.   not a pleasant experience for her of that poor rider, who actually did pretty well to stay on as long as she did...


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## Pearlsasinger (25 March 2018)

AdorableAlice said:



			Blimey, the cob spoke and no one listened to her.
		
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I am appalled.  If I had been there (highly unlikely), I would have had to walk out.
Quite apart from anything else, why take a nervous reactive horse into that atmosphere to try to teach it anything?  What on earth did the charity think they had rescued her for?  To make life difficult for her?


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## Rowreach (25 March 2018)

be positive said:



			Not sure if the following comment that has just gone on the EWN facebook page is true but it puts an even worse view on what went on yesterday.

Lyndsay Martin This horse was rehomed as NON RIDDEN, due to severe injuries sustained in a horse walker including a broken hock. This is major negligence on your behalf to not inform people of the horses past truthfully

3m
		
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I just saw that!!

Along with the other comments such as "Good progress, looking forward to seeing her tomorrow", "Ding ding round two" and "Isn't she beautiful?"

I hope they don't use her tonight.


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## hobo (25 March 2018)

JFTD said:



			That certainly wasn't comfortable viewing.  The horse didn't look ready for any of it, and I can't imagine there's anything positive it's taken away from that.

Credit to the horse for standing and not killing the rider while she was on the floor and tangled up though.
		
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As above really I did not watch past the first fall i think it would have made me even sadder. Any horse that I have been involved with has never bucked when in the first stages of being backed and early ridden work. ( that maybe has come later!) Maybe it is time for him stop these demo's. I was also shocked that he just left rider to sort herself out that could have been a terrible accident.

Poor horse will take a long time to unlearn this and he has just made it in to a rodeo horse.


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## blitznbobs (25 March 2018)

I agree ive never had a horse react badly to first 'sitting on' but I wouldn't' even say on like that. I've backed a few much 'hotter' than that youngsters and the fireworks usually come much later... sitting on for the first time should be a positive experience for all and should not be done til the horse finds every step before boring. This can be five minutes or five weeks depending on the horse but trying to do every horse in 30 minutes is foolhardy


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## ester (25 March 2018)

EWN? That's pretty shocking if it was non ridden for physical reasons not behavioural.


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## Leo Walker (25 March 2018)

be positive said:



			Not sure if the following comment that has just gone on the EWN facebook page is true but it puts an even worse view on what went on yesterday.

Lyndsay Martin This horse was rehomed as NON RIDDEN, due to severe injuries sustained in a horse walker including a broken hock. This is major negligence on your behalf to not inform people of the horses past truthfully

3m
		
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I watched the whole thing thinking "I hope they have made really, really sure theres no physical issues before they did this". That looked to me like a horse that was hurting.


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## The Fuzzy Furry (25 March 2018)

JFTD said:



			That certainly wasn't comfortable viewing.  The horse didn't look ready for any of it, and I can't imagine there's anything positive it's taken away from that.

Credit to the horse for standing and not killing the rider while she was on the floor and tangled up though.
		
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Agreed. Such a vast difference to what MR used to do nearly 30 yrs ago here.

BP, I saw that comment too, just appalling if that's right :mad3:


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## be positive (25 March 2018)

ester said:



			EWN? That's pretty shocking if it was non ridden for physical reasons not behavioural.
		
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The horse belongs to a charity known as Equine Welfare Network, so it could well have been gifted a non ridden horse to ensure it's future was safe, the comment is on their facebook page although most of the others seem to be saying how well it went "amazing progress" but maybe they were seeing something different to me.


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## Pearlsasinger (25 March 2018)

be positive said:



			Not sure if the following comment that has just gone on the EWN facebook page is true but it puts an even worse view on what went on yesterday.

Lyndsay Martin This horse was rehomed as NON RIDDEN, due to severe injuries sustained in a horse walker including a broken hock. This is major negligence on your behalf to not inform people of the horses past truthfully

3m
		
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What !!!!!!!!
No wonder the poor horse was nervous and reactive.  If MR had been worth his salt he would have told the 'rescue' that she wasn't suitable for the demo, even without knowing that piece of info,which presumably he didn't know.


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## ycbm (25 March 2018)

I shook my head as Monty said 'look how she's trying to stay with me' several times, as each time the poor creature walked away from him staring out through the cage as if begging someone, anyone, in the crowd to rescue her. And they just laughed.

What a terrible spectacle, almost as bad as Parelli and Catwalk.


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## ester (25 March 2018)

got it thanks BP  

I do think people just go along with a name, and if he says they did good work people will agree they made good progress regardless of what they are watching.


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## ester (25 March 2018)

Pearlsasinger said:



			What !!!!!!!!
No wonder the poor horse was nervous and reactive.  If MR had been worth his salt he would have told the 'rescue' that she wasn't suitable for the demo, even without knowing that piece of info,which presumably he didn't know.
		
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That is what I am confused about, that previously people have said that all the horses are assessed before some of them are selected for the demo, so why was this mare selected.

Also, while I understand they wouldn't have wanted to spook the horse they were very slow to do anything when the rider was hanging off trapped, not even grabbing the line. Compared to speed that a fallen off jockey ran to help his mate racing last week.


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## Velcrobum (25 March 2018)

That made very uncomfortable viewing and having just looked at the facebook page of EWN the comments in response to the video make uncomfortable reading. As be positive says #43 they must be seeing something different. I feel so sorry for the mare if she has suffered injury in the past IMHO its another case of a horse/pony that probably should have been PTS rather than gifted to a charity.


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## MotherOfChickens (25 March 2018)

IME NH trainers never look to the physical cause of behavioural issues-I've seen too many horses and ponies been to different ones (famous ones and not only Parelli) to be sorted out only for issues to resurface down the line. They would turn up to our clinics and then be persuaded to have a full work up.  I have seen video footage of one poor horse ridden by a famous NHer -literally into the ground. Pony was later PTS due to SI and hock issues and tbh, his discomfort was absolutely plain to see.most of them look to shut the horse down. 
I've seen the results of starting them like this, and I've always loathed join up. none of these people making money from such things, as far as I can see, have the horse's best interests at heart and I'd not give them my money to view it let alone send a horse to one.


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## Red-1 (25 March 2018)

I can quite see what a charity would put horses forward, it would be "good" publicity, and he does have a "name" in training difficult horses. I see on their FB page that they were asking for donations to send 4 of their horses. Can't help but think this one has backfired though. 

I do hope they don't use her tonight. If she is indeed injured then I hope she remains non ridden. If she is not injured then I hope she is helped at her pace out of the demo situation.

The comments from their followers did also bewilder me. Round two ding ding??? Like it is a sort of fight????


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## EventingMum (25 March 2018)

I'm fairly gobsmacked watching this especially if it's true the horse wasn't supposed to be ridden due to injury. I've seen Monty once many years ago and felt he definitely understood horses but didn't like the showman element of the demos. His lungeline trailing on the ground also strikes me as a risk and I think that rider was incredibly lucky she wasn't dragged, trodden on or kicked. 

Personally I've always felt Monty's methods get the rider on the horses back quickly but leave a lot of gaps in the horse's education to be filled in later compared with a traditional backing process where the horse has usually learned voice commands and, especially if long reined, had the opportunity to feel and understand rein contact and aids. Before getting on the horse has had the chance to get used to being worked with, the tack on and off a number of times and has generally been settled working in an arena. Monty's methods seem to throw a lot at the horse in one go and I was told of one horse who behaved well at the demo but the next day the qwner went to put the saddle on and it was launched at great speed accross the arena.

On the other hand I was very impressed with Richard Maxwell both in a demo and also working with a difficult loader belonging to someone I know.


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## Cortez (25 March 2018)

The most difficult horse I have ever had in for training was somewhat like this mare. We did back it eventually but never got it to advance beyond walk/trot. Long after I found out that it had broken it's neck, several people had tried to ride it and failed, the owner knew this and sent it along to us anyway. I was furious (for the horse's sake) and gave the owner a dressing down. He told me the horse was put down the day he collected it from us. Some people are horrible. I hope this mare gets a better chance.


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## MagicMelon (25 March 2018)

I agree with others, the horse clearly wasn't ready for someone to get properly on. I respected Monty Roberts a few years back but nowadays he seems to be keen to do quick fixes, but IMO I dont see why anyone wants to "back" a horse in one go in a performance like this. Whats wrong with simply working up to leaning over its back over several days, then sitting up gently once the horse is ready before moving onto the next stage?  I dont get why anyone would need to rush it like this. TBH, the horse doesn't even look like it had the basics of being able to lead nicely taught to it yet. Brave rider though! I wouldn't want to have got on that horse at the beginning let alone after the first bronc, let alone the second! Ouch! I sort of feel that really Monty should be the one to be getting chucked off... its easy being the one on the ground!  IMO the horse is going to even more explosive and sharp after this... good luck owners...


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## DirectorFury (25 March 2018)

MotherOfChickens said:



			IME NH trainers never look to the physical cause of behavioural issues-I've seen too many horses and ponies been to different ones (famous ones and not only Parelli) to be sorted out only for issues to resurface down the line. They would turn up to our clinics and then be persuaded to have a full work up.  I have seen video footage of one poor horse ridden by a famous NHer -literally into the ground. Pony was later PTS due to SI and hock issues and tbh, his discomfort was absolutely plain to see.most of them look to shut the horse down. 
I've seen the results of starting them like this, and I've always loathed join up. none of these people making money from such things, as far as I can see, have the horse's best interests at heart and I'd not give them my money to view it let alone send a horse to one.
		
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I agree with this. A lot of 'natural' horsemanship is anything but and causes horses to shut down completely.


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## Fools Motto (25 March 2018)

I saw MR live once, must have been about 20 years ago. He used a 'buck stop' thingy... like a gum shield? I thought then he was a bit fake, as a person of his calibre, who has to back 'bucky' horses with gadgets to stop them bucking? Just didn't sit right. Then saw Richard Maxwell, he did a lovely job, and prefered him. I was also put off Kelly Marks, when she was trying to load a horse into a trailer, by using army camouflage nets to hide the trailer!!?!?! 
Anyway, watching this video of MR with a clearly stressed flighty mare, part of me thinks I'm glad it went wrong, as it proves it does happen, but equally, it should never have got to the stage (agreeing with most people on this thread). I worry for the mare now. That would never be un-done.


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## Dave's Mam (25 March 2018)

That is not a happy pony.


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## SusieT (25 March 2018)

nothing about that was remotely 'horse friendly' . Cannot believe people going to watch that for an 'enlightened' method of horse handling could watch that and applaud..


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## Rowreach (25 March 2018)

SusieT said:



			nothing about that was remotely 'horse friendly' . Cannot believe people going to watch that for an 'enlightened' method of horse handling could watch that and applaud..
		
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And laugh.  How was it remotely funny?


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## Goldenstar (25 March 2018)

Rowreach said:



			And laugh.  How was it remotely funny?
		
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I know I know not remotely funny ,a horse having bad experiance is not funny .
It all get right up my nose and pending the myth that this type of method is somehow more humane than the tradional structured way I was trained to back horses . Where great care was taken to physically condition the horse and to train it to the voice to teach it the basics of bend and yielding away before a structured step by step build up to the backing and then a structured approach to riding away .
Hey ho all part of the quick fix horsemanship too popular today .
It was drummed into us that the horse lives with the mistakes you make at the start for ever - you move on to the next one but the horse can&#8217;t escape that backing because it only has one .
That&#8217;s why I hate backing as entertainment .


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## Dave's Mam (25 March 2018)

Goldenstar said:



			I know I know not remotely funny ,a horse having bad experiance is not funny .
It all get right up my nose and pending the myth that this type of method is somehow more humane than the tradional structured way I was trained to back horses . Where great care was taken to physically condition the horse and to train it to the voice to teach it the basics of bend and yielding away before a structured step by step build up to the backing and then a structured approach to riding away .
Hey ho all part of the quick fix horsemanship too popular today .
It was drummed into us that the horse lives with the mistakes you make at the start for ever - you move on to the next one but the horse can&#8217;t escape that backing because it only has one .
That&#8217;s why I hate backing as entertainment .
		
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Totally with you.


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## JFTDWS (25 March 2018)

Fools Motto said:



			I was also put off Kelly Marks, when she was trying to load a horse into a trailer, by using army camouflage nets to hide the trailer!!?!?!
		
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Say what now?! :eek3:


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## fburton (26 March 2018)

Rowreach said:



			And laugh.  How was it remotely funny?
		
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Not saying that this was the case here - I wasn't present - but remember that people can also laugh as a release of nervous tension and as reassurance.


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## ycbm (26 March 2018)

fburton said:



			Not saying that this was the case here - I wasn't present - but remember that people can also laugh as a release of nervous tension and as reassurance.
		
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I didn't have the sound up but they were, I think, laughing in response to jokes being made about the situation by Monty. I just felt sorry for that poor bewildered mare trapped in a cage with an audience bursting into laughter, for whatever reason.

I hope no HHOer, in fact I'm sure  no HHOer, would attempt to sit on a horse which was panicking just when being led around.


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## MotherOfChickens (26 March 2018)

Goldenstar said:



			I know I know not remotely funny ,a horse having bad experiance is not funny .
It all get right up my nose and pending the myth that this type of method is somehow more humane than the tradional structured way I was trained to back horses . Where great care was taken to physically condition the horse and to train it to the voice to teach it the basics of bend and yielding away before a structured step by step build up to the backing and then a structured approach to riding away .
Hey ho all part of the quick fix horsemanship too popular today .
It was drummed into us that the horse lives with the mistakes you make at the start for ever - you move on to the next one but the horse cant escape that backing because it only has one .
Thats why I hate backing as entertainment .
		
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yep, completely. and yet this is the bloke who's told thousands that lunging is cruel. I saw him decades ago when he first came to Newmarket, not impressed with him now or then. If that mare is to carry on a ridden career I pity the poor sod who is in change of riding it. and tbh if I'd have been that girl's parents I'd have been furious-to have tack fail once is bad enough.


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## jumbyjack (26 March 2018)

My friend took a difficult horse to one of his clinics, he refused it and any others that were problematic. The allegedly untouched youngster he chose to work with was wearing shoes!

I have to admit I have never liked his methods and after seeing him ride down the horse in the desert  causing that horse immense and cruel stress I would not call that horsemanship. Now he's just a mass pleaser.


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## ycbm (26 March 2018)

MotherOfChickens said:



			yep, completely. and yet this is the bloke who's told thousands that lunging is cruel. I saw him decades ago when he first came to Newmarket, not impressed with him now or then. If that mare is to carry on a ridden career I pity the poor sod who is in change of riding it. and tbh if I'd have been that girl's parents I'd have been furious-to have tack fail once is bad enough.
		
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What was it with that saddle?  I thought it was a half treed racing saddle and didn't fit anyway. Who gives a horse a first ridden experience in such a bad saddle?


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## fburton (26 March 2018)

Fools Motto said:



			I was also put off Kelly Marks, when she was trying to load a horse into a trailer, by using army camouflage nets to hide the trailer!!?!?!
		
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Assuming you mean that you were put off by the use of camouflage nets and not Kelly Marks herself... 

It does seem an extraordinary measure to take in order to teach a horse to load. I can only imagine they decided the horse had such an aversion to the appearance of the outside of the trailer that it was making it extremely hard to lead the horse close enough to the trailer to even attempt the usual procedures. It may have been a sensible thing to try under the circumstances - I don't know because I wasn't there. Were they successful in the end?


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## ycbm (26 March 2018)

fburton said:



			Assuming you mean that you were put off by the use of camouflage nets and not Kelly Marks herself... 

It does seem an extraordinary measure to take in order to teach a horse to load. I can only imagine they decided the horse had such an aversion to the appearance of the outside of the trailer that it was making it extremely hard to lead the horse close enough to the trailer to even attempt the usual procedures. It may have been a sensible thing to try under the circumstances - I don't know because I wasn't there. Were they successful in the end?
		
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It's the same 'quick fix' for a demo problem, though, isn't it FB. More sensible, surely, to feed the horse a bit closer to the trailer every day for a fortnight? 

What happens if the horse is half in and a gust of wind blows the camo nets around?

I have no problem with speed backing, and I'll be doing it to my own three year old when the snow stops, IF he stays quiet and calm to be tacked up and leant over. And if not, it will take however long it takes.


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## MotherOfChickens (26 March 2018)

jumbyjack said:



			I have to admit I have never liked his methods and after seeing him ride down the horse in the desert  causing that horse immense and cruel stress I would not call that horsemanship. Now he's just a mass pleaser.
		
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I had forgotten about that-I couldnt understand why that was thought of as being so great at the time and felt so sorry for that youngster. nothing about his methods are kind-they may have some merit for completely feral mustangs that you need dead broke quickly but dont see its place these days and here.


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## fburton (26 March 2018)

ycbm said:



			I didn't have the sound up but they were, I think, laughing in response to jokes being made about the situation by Monty.
		
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That would make sense, although I imagine the laughter could still have been nervous release triggered by the 'jokes' rather than because they were actually funny.




			I just felt sorry for that poor bewildered mare trapped in a cage with an audience bursting into laughter, for whatever reason.
		
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I don't think I would have laughed, and would have kept quiet (no clapping) for the sake of the horse.




			I hope no HHOer, in fact I'm sure  no HHOer, would attempt to sit on a horse which was panicking just when being led around.
		
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Such public demonstrations impose constraints that can work against the horse's interests - sometimes disastrously so.


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## ycbm (26 March 2018)

fburton said:



			Such public demonstrations impose constraints that can work against the horse's interests - sometimes disastrously so.
		
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Follow the money, Parelli too. Poor horses


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## fburton (26 March 2018)

ycbm said:



			It's the same 'quick fix' for a demo problem, though, isn't it FB. More sensible, surely, to feed the horse a bit closer to the trailer every day for a fortnight?
		
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Oh, absolutely! I've known people teach their horses to 'self load' by parking an open trailer in the field and feeding them near/inside - not feasible for everyone but quite effective and stress-free.


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## fburton (26 March 2018)

ycbm said:



			Follow the money, Parelli too. Poor horses 

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Yes, I had that awful Catwalk demo in my mind as I was writing that.


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## Orangehorse (26 March 2018)

We in the UK have often been very snotty about these demos, but remember where he comes from where he witnessed awful cruelty and abuse of horses as a normal part of "breaking."  Also Kelly was from a racing background and preferred his methods.

I have been to various demos by Monty, Mark Rashid, Linda Tellington-Jones and although it was a long time ago now, it certainly made me re-evaluate my handling/training and to see things from the horse's point of view a lot more than I did previously, having only been a product of the Pony Club and hunting field.


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## Clodagh (26 March 2018)

Orangehorse said:



			see things from the horse's point of view a lot more than I did previously, having only been a product of the Pony Club and hunting field.
		
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This is where the NH thing gets a bit silly - so people who hunt and do PC are cruel, NH isn't? Individuals following any method can make mistakes, be cruel and just be crap with animals. Michale Sharpley broke our youngsters, he was old school but the kindest, most patient man. WhenI went to a MR demo I thought although Michael didn't use the gadgets, his sense of timing was very similar, know when to push and when to back off. The best horsemen from any school are those with the best instincts and timing.


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## Ladyinred (26 March 2018)

I loathe Monty Roberts (and others of similar fame and notoriety) He relies on smoke and mirrors plus a fair amount of mental cruelty and sly jabs of the 'Dooly' (Dually) whilst regaling the audience with anecdotes of his cruel father.

He maintains he wants to leave the world a better place for horses, well that is possibly his truest statement because when he leaves the world horses, will no longer be tormented by his unpleasant methods.

To those that think he is wonderful, I suggest you watch his videos with the sound off. Without the distraction of his voice it is only too plain to see what he really gets up to.


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## ester (26 March 2018)

I fairly sure that some of the abuse in the breaking of horses that he supposedly witnessed as a child has been debunked anyway, but it made for a good book/story. 

I don't think it has anything to do with being snotty, I actually think for the most part alternative methods have been/were welcomed with open arms in this country, certainly initially. But the more it goes on the the more things happen that make even a lay horse person like me question everything that is going on under that name. Most of them usually have something helpful to say but that doesn't mean that everything they do is great, or something I would take on board to use in the future.


And to a use a lipline on a bucker as he has done with some frequency (as described by FM) is pretty abusive in my book still


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## Ladyinred (26 March 2018)

fburton said:



			Yes, I had that awful Catwalk demo in my mind as I was writing that.
		
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Don't even go there!

I believe the arguments surrounding that video are ongoing several years later.


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## ihatework (26 March 2018)

My brief thoughts -

Backing horses isnt a spectator show and irrespective of the horses background/temprement they shouldnt be put in that situation.

When backing them you need a saddle that stays put if something unfortunate happens. The saddle put the horse and rider in danger.

On the assumption I accept he was there to put on a show for the audience (which I dont) then he was completely irresponsible to go for round 2. He should have continued with the leaning over with a view to sitting up and finishing on that. Whilst talking around it. Even that would have been too quick, but in view of the overall picture probably the viable option.

As it is he is very lucky the jockey wasnt injured. I wonder what his insurers will think of that video


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## ozpoz (26 March 2018)

I stopped watching when the saddle slipped. It was not a display of horsemanship and I feel very sorry for the horse and rider who has to put up with this.


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## Shavings (26 March 2018)

i cant watch because the video has been removed..


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## fburton (26 March 2018)

Orangehorse said:



			I have been to various demos by Monty, Mark Rashid, Linda Tellington-Jones and although it was a long time ago now, it certainly made me re-evaluate my handling/training and to see things from the horse's point of view a lot more than I did previously, having only been a product of the Pony Club and hunting field.
		
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I used to go to demos quite a lot, and have seen a variety of horsemen/women both here and in the US. There's _always_ useful (and sometimes revelatory) things to see at these events - even if one doesn't like what one sees! Most of the time, however, the horses coped fine with what was being done with/to them. If I had to pick a favourite, it would probably be Mark Rashid.


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## Rowreach (26 March 2018)

This blog give a brief synopsis of the video (but leaves out bits like the saddle slipping twice, the girl getting her foot caught the first time and being bounced of the top of the round pen the second, and the fact that at the very end, when she got off, Mia jumped sideways) and it shows another video, another trainer, and a different approach to reading and assessing a horse and its reactions.

"If your horse is out of control at this point, then you shouldn't be riding it" kind of sums it up.

https://horsecrazyagain.com/2018/03/26/the-measure-of-a-horseman/


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## Gloi (26 March 2018)

If that girl riding is an employee of Monty Roberts how would things stand if she got badly hurt because there certainly wasn't any care for her welfare riding a horse which obviously wasn't ready to be ridden.


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## Orangehorse (26 March 2018)

Clodagh said:



			This is where the NH thing gets a bit silly - so people who hunt and do PC are cruel, NH isn't? Individuals following any method can make mistakes, be cruel and just be crap with animals. Michale Sharpley broke our youngsters, he was old school but the kindest, most patient man. WhenI went to a MR demo I thought although Michael didn't use the gadgets, his sense of timing was very similar, know when to push and when to back off. The best horsemen from any school are those with the best instincts and timing.
		
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I didn't say anything about cruelty, I have never been cruel to any horse or pony, ever, it just made me re-evaluate many things that were taught "traditionally" just to look from another standpoint and I am glad that I did.  I am not a NH person as such either!  I hope that I open minded.

I went on one clinic with an American lady who used to buy and rehab and retrain horses from all sorts of homes and backgrounds.  She said that we have no idea about cruel methods in the UK.  She had seen horses beaten to the ground with chains when they "misbehaved"  and that wasn't an isolated incident.

I also know a Monty Roberts person who was coming across so many horses that had training problems that were caused originally by pain issues that she went and trained as an equine physio.


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## Velcrobum (26 March 2018)

Shavings said:



			i cant watch because the video has been removed..
		
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I am not surprised as the comments on the charities face book page have been very negative. IMHO quite correctly as they should never have tried to back the mare if it is true it fractured a hock and sustained other injuries as well. I wonder if anyone has considered the mare might be feisty because she is in pain.........


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## Orangehorse (26 March 2018)

Richard Maxwell used to be Monty's rider in the UK, so he used to be the first rider!


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## npage123 (26 March 2018)

In this instance things certainly didn't go as planned.

However I see these demonstrations by Monty Roberts as a 'quick view' of his methods as it's not practical to show his starting of a horse in the actual real time that's used when he starts a horse at home.  

As others have suggested, perhaps he should simply educate the audience on the join-up procedure, which, let's face it, is a really enjoyable game to play with your horse in a small school.  Regarding the starting of a horse after join-up - perhaps MR should change all of this and stop at the stage where a rider leans over a horse.  No sitting up, no walking about or anything else - and then for him to explain that the next phase is to progress over a longer period of time so that the horse is comfortable with every phase.

He can still do his 'difficult to load' performances and do join-up with a variety of challenging horses who refuse to yield to the owner's own attempt of join-up and who has no respect for the handler's personal space.

I have met MR at one of his demonstrations and he's got a kind soul and was lovely.

Apart from anything equine related, I take my hat off to him that he's fostered 47 kids over the years and for this alone I've got huge respect for him.


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## Ambers Echo (26 March 2018)

fburton said:



			If I had to pick a favourite, it would probably be Mark Rashid.
		
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Me too. And he refuses to do colt starting clinics. Hates them. Wrote a very good article once about how destructive it was to put additional pressure and time constraints on such an important process. He's not a showman either. Doesn't even sell his own books at his clinics, let alone treat the entire thing as a great marketing and merchandising opportunity.


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## fburton (26 March 2018)

npage123 said:



			As others have suggested, perhaps he should simply educate the audience on the join-up procedure, which, let's face it, is a really enjoyable game to play with your horse in a small school.
		
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Hmm, I'm not sure it's a good idea to encourage people to play this 'game' willy-nilly, because of the potential for miscommunication. (Especially in a school where having corners doesn't help!) I'm sure Kelly has stated that join-up isn't suitable for all horses. Also, I think it's important to understand the reasons for doing things to/with your horses and I'm not convinced that attending a demo of join-up would necessarily impart that understanding.




			... yield to the owner's own attempt of join-up and who has no respect for the handler's personal space
		
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What do you think join-up is meant to do?


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## Orangehorse (26 March 2018)

Ambers Echo said:



			Me too. And he refuses to do colt starting clinics. Hates them. Wrote a very good article once about how destructive it was to put additional pressure and time constraints on such an important process. He's not a showman either. Doesn't even sell his own books at his clinics, let alone treat the entire thing as a great marketing and merchandising opportunity.
		
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I agree that Mark Rashid was the best.  I shall never forget how he helped a dressage lady to perfect her one-time changes in a matter of minutes.  Plus he seemed to be a really nice guy and helped all sorts from the dressage horse to a bargy pony.


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## Tiddlypom (26 March 2018)

IME, many of the well handled young horses that went to the MR Stoneleigh demo in 1989 hated and were frightened of the join up process. They were comfortable around people and couldn't understand why this man kept sending them away when they tried to approach him.

My own 3yo thug coped fine with the whole occasion, as I knew he would. I would not have sent my other year older sec D/TB, a sensitive soul who would have been distraught at the handling.


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## Laafet (26 March 2018)

Ladyinred said:



			I loathe Monty Roberts (and others of similar fame and notoriety) He relies on smoke and mirrors plus a fair amount of mental cruelty and sly jabs of the 'Dooly' (Dually) whilst regaling the audience with anecdotes of his cruel father.

He maintains he wants to leave the world a better place for horses, well that is possibly his truest statement because when he leaves the world horses, will no longer be tormented by his unpleasant methods.

To those that think he is wonderful, I suggest you watch his videos with the sound off. Without the distraction of his voice it is only too plain to see what he really gets up to.
		
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Whole heartedly agree with this. Monty did my horse at the WHW a few years ago, they chose Tarquin because he was very showy and made Monty look good. He also responded well to the techniques. Because even though Monty didn't touch him before the demo, they worked my horse for a good few hours in the round pen with Monty watching him. 
I had to beg to get the video of the demo and I watch it back now without the sound on and it is truly horrific. He did a lot of surreptitious jabbing on the Dually etc, Tarquin did at one point tell him where to go and nearly ran him down (good old Welsh D roots) Anyway he didn't solve Tarquin's problems and they all watched at the end of demo as I struggled to load my tired horse, him, Kelly Mark and Ian Vandenburg and not one offered to help.
Interestingly enough, two of my horses that I have had an incredibly strong bond with will not do 'join up' but happily follow me about and would do as I say regardless of the danger as they trust me. I do understand now that because both had been beaten in their past then that is why join up didn't work for them, but providing a consistent and fair handling environment let them learn to trust me, and you can't do that in 20 minutes in a pen.


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## MotherOfChickens (26 March 2018)

Tiddlypom said:



			IME, many of the well handled young horses that went to the MR Stoneleigh demo in 1989 hated and were frightened of the join up process. They were comfortable around people and couldn't understand why this man kept sending them away when they tried to approach him.
		
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I think the UK at some point had hundreds of bewildered, perfectly OK family horse wondering what the hell was going on after being chased round a round pen for no good reason. dont get me wrong, I know how it works when it works (lunging is a stylised form of join up when you think about it but with better cues, progression and goalposts when done well) but dont see its place with a normally brought up horse.


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## stormox (26 March 2018)

I have seen a Monty demo where I had a horse on livery (Keysoe) he watched a lot of horses working  in the round pen and chose the ones he would use in the demo.
I wonder why the video has been removed? At Montys insistance? It didnt make him look good....


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## npage123 (26 March 2018)

fburton said:



			Hmm, I'm not sure it's a good idea to encourage people to play this 'game' willy-nilly, because of the potential for miscommunication. (Especially in a school where having corners doesn't help!) I'm sure Kelly has stated that join-up isn't suitable for all horses. Also, I think it's important to understand the reasons for doing things to/with your horses and I'm not convinced that attending a demo of join-up would necessarily impart that understanding.


What do you think join-up is meant to do?
		
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I can see your point.  There are many things that can go wrong if someone attempts join-up, as not everyone are naturally perceptive to what the horse is communicating, hence as you say miscommunication can easily happen.  So at home it's probably best to be taught how do it by someone that's already mastered it.  In a small school the 4 corners can be closed off by putting jumping poles across each corner.
By 'playing with your horse', I meant it that if you are proficient at joining up, then instead of riding on that day, it's like a fun 'day off' for you and your horse to strengthen the bond between you.  

To me join-up is a pain-free method, meant to establish a trusting and calm relationship between human and rider, where the horse accepts the human as the 'herd leader' and will happily follow him/her.  This can then over time progress into (after a succesfull join-up), to starting a horse, eventually riding too.  

Have I misunderstood the meaning of join-up all this time?! :-O


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## MotherOfChickens (26 March 2018)

fburton said:



			Hmm, I'm not sure it's a good idea to encourage people to play this 'game' willy-nilly, because of the potential for miscommunication. (Especially in a school where having corners doesn't help!)/QUOTE]

do you think corners are a good or bad thing in this context? have heard an argument that the circle is a bad thing psychologically for the horse.
		
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## Clodagh (26 March 2018)

Before join up was invented as a thing I used to play with my horse loose in the field. Not with the youngsters though!! I never had a dually or a stick but just body language would get my mare doing all sorts, we had an exceptional bond though. When I went in poo picking she would come over and we played.


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## JFTDWS (26 March 2018)

npage123 said:



			To me join-up is a pain-free method, meant to establish a trusting and calm relationship between human and rider, where the horse accepts the human as the 'herd leader' and will happily follow him/her.  This can then over time progress into (after a succesfull join-up), to starting a horse, eventually riding too.
		
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There's what a technique is "meant" to do, and what it actually achieves.  And they're not always the same thing.


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## MotherOfChickens (26 March 2018)

Clodagh said:



			Before join up was invented as a thing I used to play with my horse loose in the field. Not with the youngsters though!! I never had a dually or a stick but just body language would get my mare doing all sorts, we had an exceptional bond though. When I went in poo picking she would come over and we played.
		
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I used to with my first luso, we'd play tag (without the actual tagging part!) and a game which was alot like 'whats the time Mr Wolf'-he'd also play with a football that had a harness type thing on it and lob it about too and fro. he was an exceptional character, miss him all the time.


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## ycbm (26 March 2018)

Nearly all the horses I've ever owned have followed me around. You don't have to do join up to get a connection with a horse; some just won't in a round pen situation and for some the chasing away waving a rope is positively harmful.


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## Red-1 (26 March 2018)

Does anyone know how the mare did on the second performance?


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## danda (26 March 2018)

I cannot view the video, it appears to have been removed.


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## fburton (26 March 2018)

npage123 said:



			I can see your point.  There are many things that can go wrong if someone attempts join-up, as not everyone are naturally perceptive to what the horse is communicating, hence as you say miscommunication can easily happen.  So at home it's probably best to be taught how do it by someone that's already mastered it.  In a small school the 4 corners can be closed off by putting jumping poles across each corner.
By 'playing with your horse', I meant it that if you are proficient at joining up, then instead of riding on that day, it's like a fun 'day off' for you and your horse to strengthen the bond between you.
		
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I can see your point too.  I'm wondering, though, whether this is the best way to go in pursuit of a stronger bond.  




			To me join-up is a pain-free method, meant to establish a trusting and calm relationship between human and rider, where the horse accepts the human as the 'herd leader' and will happily follow him/her.  This can then over time progress into (after a succesfull join-up), to starting a horse, eventually riding too.  

Have I misunderstood the meaning of join-up all this time?! :-O
		
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Well, different people have different understandings - that's for sure. Can they all be right? For example, researchers have shown that you can get what look like the same responses from a horse through purely mechanical means, using a remote-controlled car to move the horse around, and go on to claim that join-up can be explained entirely by behaviourist / conditioning processes. How much sense does it make then to describe the car as 'herd leader'?

There has been discussion about what individual elements of join-up signify - in particular, the 'licking and chewing' gesture that is usually seen at some point in a successful join-up. I have 'put my oar in' with regard to that matter in the past.

I am personally sceptical of both the 'herd leader' concept (especially when it gets mixed up with notions of dominance) and the idea that it can be usefully applied in our own interactions with horses. It seems an unnecessarily complicated idea and prone to misunderstanding - or, sometimes, understanding in any way that people see fit to justify behaving in the way they do towards horses, leading to misuse.

Incidentally, I came across the following clip in the last couple of days which raises questions about the 'herd leader' idea... https://youtu.be/zf_YHnob9dI?t=2m42s.


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## Clodagh (26 March 2018)

MotherOfChickens said:



			I used to with my first luso, we'd play tag (without the actual tagging part!) and a game which was alot like 'whats the time Mr Wolf'-he'd also play with a football that had a harness type thing on it and lob it about too and fro. he was an exceptional character, miss him all the time.
		
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Yes, just like that. I will never have another horse like her.


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## fburton (26 March 2018)

MotherOfChickens said:



			"Hmm, I'm not sure it's a good idea to encourage people to play this 'game' willy-nilly, because of the potential for miscommunication. (Especially in a school where having corners doesn't help!)"

do you think corners are a good or bad thing in this context? have heard an argument that the circle is a bad thing psychologically for the horse.
		
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In the context of join-up, I think corners are unhelpful because horses can get 'stuck' in them. The advantage of a circle is it allows the horse to run away continuously without sudden direction changes being imposed by the shape of the arena (although the handler may impose them by blocking flight and pushing the horse in the other direction).


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## fburton (26 March 2018)

ycbm said:



			Nearly all the horses I've ever owned have followed me around. You don't have to do join up to get a connection with a horse; some just won't in a round pen situation and for some the chasing away waving a rope is positively harmful.
		
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Following is natural for a horse that likes and trusts you. It's not the only reason why a horse might follow you, though, and it is of course possible to train a horse to follow - with liking and trusting not necessarily being at the forefront.


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## tristar (26 March 2018)

any horse being backed by me always has the saddle girthed up fully, and through all the preceding sessions leading up to backing for several weeks, any instability of rider or saddle during the backing process gives the wrong signals to the horse at a time when slight losses of balance are likely  to occur during the early ridden sessions, when the actual flow of the session sets in the horses mind that leg on means walk forward,not stagger around , stop and get booted in the ribs, but a smooth flowing lesson that months of work have led up to this moment, it should be easily understood by the horse, a moment that defines the future.

i too saw that mustang being chased by mr, years ago and it shocked me to my core, after 48  hours of being chased it gave up and said`eat me`.

i can`t find any words to express how i feel about the people in the audience,but i know if i had been there nothing would have stopped me from intervening, i would have been compelled.

i think the rider is a blxxdy fool, should not have got on first time, and i don`t know what they were thinking of to get on again!

joinup as marketed is a myth, all horses join up with their handler or rider when forming a partnership.

a friend of mine rescued a cob foal, never had a horse before, its now three years old, and very well behaved, lunges beautifully, he saw monty on the h and c tv, and said `that bloke is  full of shxte`the genuine impression of an innocent mind.


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## stormox (26 March 2018)

Ambers Echo said:



			Me too. And he refuses to do colt starting clinics. Hates them. Wrote a very good article once about how destructive it was to put additional pressure and time constraints on such an important process. He's not a showman either. Doesn't even sell his own books at his clinics, let alone treat the entire thing as a great marketing and merchandising opportunity.
		
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At the Monty Roberts show I was at (Keysoe) he had loads of Dually, ropes etc, even hats, for sale! All rather expensive....


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## tristar (26 March 2018)

oh yes, how can mr say he doesnt like lunging when he spends most of his life chasing horses around a round pen?

i believe lunging is the most valuable tool in the box, lunging in large squares, down the long side it does`nt need to permanantly round, over poles and jumps, purely to voice commands, walk to canter, using it for prewarming up, evaluating a horse mood, freeing  the back and letting out tension.


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## PapaverFollis (26 March 2018)

On the whole I don't like methods and big names in animal training.  Generally speaking I would say that really good quality, kind animal training is really, really boring as **** to watch. And sometimes even boring as ****to do! :lol: Endless reps and tiny increments do not a good live show make.


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## Clodagh (26 March 2018)

PapaverFollis said:



			On the whole I don't like methods and big names in animal training.  Generally speaking I would say that really good quality, kind animal training is really, really boring as **** to watch. And sometimes even boring as ****to do! :lol: Endless reps and tiny increments do not a good live show make.
		
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Never a truer word said!


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## DabDab (26 March 2018)

PapaverFollis said:



			On the whole I don't like methods and big names in animal training.  Generally speaking I would say that really good quality, kind animal training is really, really boring as **** to watch. And sometimes even boring as ****to do! :lol: Endless reps and tiny increments do not a good live show make.
		
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Indeed.


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## Sleipnir (26 March 2018)

I saw the video and was appalled. I am especially appalled about the fact that this method is fed to the masses as a way to gain horses' trust. No. Chasing a prey animal round and round until it helplessly submits, because there is no other relief as to come to the chaser, is NOT trust. Trust takes time, patience, empathy to the animals' needs and skill, not a roundpen and half an hour of your time. Besides that, it is even more utterly useless to do with a horse who's already been handled and has learned to listen to the human even in the most basic way. 

Ugh. Not a fan of MR at all.


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## Ladyinred (26 March 2018)

Sleipnir said:



			I saw the video and was appalled. I am especially appalled about the fact that this method is fed to the masses as a way to gain horses' trust. No. Chasing a prey animal round and round until it helplessly submits, because there is no other relief as to come to the chaser, is NOT trust. Trust takes time, patience, empathy to the animals' needs and skill, not a roundpen and half an hour of your time. Besides that, it is even more utterly useless to do with a horse who's already been handled and has learned to listen to the human even in the most basic way. 

Ugh. Not a fan of MR at all.
		
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This ^^ sums it up very well.


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## Ambers Echo (26 March 2018)

fburton said:



			Hmm, I'm not sure it's a good idea to encourage people to play this 'game' willy-nilly, because of the potential for miscommunication. (Especially in a school where having corners doesn't help!) I'm sure Kelly has stated that join-up isn't suitable for all horses. Also, I think it's important to understand the reasons for doing things to/with your horses and I'm not convinced that attending a demo of join-up would necessarily impart that understanding.


What do you think join-up is meant to do?
		
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Completely agree with this. I read The Man Who Listens to Horses years ago and liked the idea of join-up. I did not ever do it though as I was not sure I fully understood how. Until one day a thuggish 3 y/o I was loaning charged me in the field as I was putting a field lick out. I yelled, twirled a rope, and drove him away. He started circling me and I ended up in a sort of impromptu join-up. I kept driving him away until he dropped his head, licked and chewed etc. Then I finished taking the plastic off the lick while he remained a respectful distance away and then I invited him in, gave him a scratch and walked away. He followed me round  - the full 'labrador' treatment. So I decided join-up was pretty cool and I did it with my angelic pony. But no sooner had I started driving him around the arena when I started feeling uncomfortable. He seemed to be saying "What?! What have I done wrong!!" And I did not know why I was driving him away or what I was trying to achieve. He ended up jumping out and that was that. (I had made a make shift round-pen but it was not very tall). It took ages to rebuild trust with him. 

I also no longer believe in the 'be the alpha' stuff though I do agree that making them move their feet in whatever direction you want them to is useful - and being attentive to their efforts to move yours so you can make sure you don't let them. My little Welshie ALWAYS used to take a little side step to push my daughter off balance. So subtle that she never even noticed he was doing it. But if you let him, he'd end up dragging her all over the place within a few weeks of those nudges. Never giving him an INCH on the ground meant all his behaviour was much better. Not sure why moving their feet and not letting them move yours is so effective. I don't know what it "means" in terms of hierarchy/status etc.


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## Celtic Fringe (26 March 2018)

I took my old cob to a clinic run by Intelligent Horsemanship associates around 14 years ago when I first bought him. It was incredibly useful at the time and if nothing else gave me confidence to start dealing with an angry, domineering Welsh-D with a somewhat chequered past. Nowadays I would not do the same thing again. My younger cob and my son's horse would be utterly confused and mortified if we attempted anything like a join up. I do sometimes send one of the herd away if they forget their manners when I'm in their field but they come in again quickly and without drama. Essentially this mimics what their 'glorious leader' (my lovely old cob)  does when he feels his herd needs to get back in line. However, in my opinion the herd leadership thing is a myth too - it really does depend on the situation. My old cob is very dominant round food and if I'm in the field. In other circumstances one of the others will investigate something new first, or decide to lead everyone to the water trough, or start some mutual grooming etc. Everyone has a role in the team.


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## Orangehorse (26 March 2018)

tristar said:



			oh yes, how can mr say he doesnt like lunging when he spends most of his life chasing horses around a round pen?

i believe lunging is the most valuable tool in the box, lunging in large squares, down the long side it does`nt need to permanantly round, over poles and jumps, purely to voice commands, walk to canter, using it for prewarming up, evaluating a horse mood, freeing  the back and letting out tension.
		
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Lunging is good if the horse isn't bracing its head and neck and shoulder to the outside which a lot of horses do when only a single rein is used.  Using a round pen, or a makeshift circle, or two reins, means that the horse does a proper circle and is being worked correctly.  (Dr. Deb Bennett explains)


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## Regandal (26 March 2018)

This is a good critique of MR's methods:

https://file.scirp.org/pdf/PSYCH_2016041315025983.pdf

Spoiler alert - it's not positive.........


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## hobo (26 March 2018)

The Mustang being chased for 48 hours was what made me realise that MR is nothing but a bully. Also on the boys that he fostered he would put them to work cleaning the toilets for hours if they missed behaved again just a bully,
I am surprised that the video stayed up as long as it did. 
I do hope the poor mare gets to live her life in peace even if it means having her put down.


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## JillA (27 March 2018)

Herd leadership is one of those flexible things that depends on resources and how important they are to each individual (as with dogs - dominance is a movable feast). And it isn't about domineering, it is about quiet confident leadership - read Mark Rashid "Horses Never Lie, The Art of Passive Leadership. My old mare was never a bully, but all she had to do was look at a herd member, flick an ear and they would follow wherever she led. They WANT to be led, to have someone make decisions for them.
I have never really done any Join Up - I felt it was wrong with a horse who wanted to be with me to send it away for no good reason. If it refused to be caught, or crossed a similar boundary, that was another matter - sending away is a very strong aversive for herd animals whose safety lies in numbers. So for all Kelly Marks courses to major on it is a big mistake IMHO. Aversives can be powerful but need to be fairly rare and interspersed with reinforcing the good behaviour, which I don't see a lot of in MR's work - the balance is wrong.


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## eahotson (27 March 2018)

Clodagh said:



			This is where the NH thing gets a bit silly - so people who hunt and do PC are cruel, NH isn't? Individuals following any method can make mistakes, be cruel and just be crap with animals. Michale Sharpley broke our youngsters, he was old school but the kindest, most patient man. WhenI went to a MR demo I thought although Michael didn't use the gadgets, his sense of timing was very similar, know when to push and when to back off. The best horsemen from any school are those with the best instincts and timing.
		
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Quite agree.The best horseman I have personally met was a man called John Wilmot who broke horses for driving.He was amazing.Was very quiet and patient but also very effective.All the horses he handled also had lovely manners.


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## eahotson (27 March 2018)

fburton said:



			I can see your point too.  I'm wondering, though, whether this is the best way to go in pursuit of a stronger bond.  


Well, different people have different understandings - that's for sure. Can they all be right? For example, researchers have shown that you can get what look like the same responses from a horse through purely mechanical means, using a remote-controlled car to move the horse around, and go on to claim that join-up can be explained entirely by behaviourist / conditioning processes. How much sense does it make then to describe the car as 'herd leader'?

There has been discussion about what individual elements of join-up signify - in particular, the 'licking and chewing' gesture that is usually seen at some point in a successful join-up. I have 'put my oar in' with regard to that matter in the past.

I am personally sceptical of both the 'herd leader' concept (especially when it gets mixed up with notions of dominance) and the idea that it can be usefully applied in our own interactions with horses. It seems an unnecessarily complicated idea and prone to misunderstanding - or, sometimes, understanding in any way that people see fit to justify behaving in the way they do towards horses, leading to misuse.

Incidentally, I came across the following clip in the last couple of days which raises questions about the 'herd leader' idea... https://youtu.be/zf_YHnob9dI?t=2m42s.
		
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Well said.Very well said.


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## eahotson (27 March 2018)

Clodagh said:



			Never a truer word said!
		
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Agree.


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## Clodagh (27 March 2018)

hobo said:



			The Mustang being chased for 48 hours was what made me realise that MR is nothing but a bully. Also on the boys that he fostered he would put them to work cleaning the toilets for hours if they missed behaved again just a bully,
I am surprised that the video stayed up as long as it did. 
I do hope the poor mare gets to live her life in peace even if it means having her put down.
		
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It was not letting the mustang drink that got me. Poor beggar.


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## Clodagh (27 March 2018)

I very much believe in the herd leader thing. My mare, who I worshipped, lived in a stable mixed herd of up to 8 individuals, mares and geldings. When she wanted a drink they formed an orderly queue behind her, and heaven forbid if one tried to push in. She would stand by the trough for ages after she had drunk, making them wait. When she moved away no 2 would come in, and so on. Some shared, some didn't.
I am alpha - when I open the stable door they step back, they do not rub on me or push me around, they hold their heads politely for bridle or headcollar. I expect manners, and enforce them. No beatings, just zero tolerance of bolshiness. The mare in charge never had to do anything more than put her ears back to express her displeasure.


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## eahotson (27 March 2018)

JillA said:



			Herd leadership is one of those flexible things that depends on resources and how important they are to each individual (as with dogs - dominance is a movable feast). And it isn't about domineering, it is about quiet confident leadership - read Mark Rashid "Horses Never Lie, The Art of Passive Leadership. My old mare was never a bully, but all she had to do was look at a herd member, flick an ear and they would follow wherever she led. They WANT to be led, to have someone make decisions for them.
I have never really done any Join Up - I felt it was wrong with a horse who wanted to be with me to send it away for no good reason. If it refused to be caught, or crossed a similar boundary, that was another matter - sending away is a very strong aversive for herd animals whose safety lies in numbers. So for all Kelly Marks courses to major on it is a big mistake IMHO. Aversives can be powerful but need to be fairly rare and interspersed with reinforcing the good behaviour, which I don't see a lot of in MR's work - the balance is wrong.
		
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I had a Highland pony who I watched send away a youngster who has transgressed.It was interesting to watch and the relationship between pony and youngster was good after that but the youngster had transgressed and it was definatively a disciplinary thing.It was never repeated to my knowledge.


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## Ambers Echo (27 March 2018)

I personally do not believe that the horse sees us as part of their herd. I do not believe 'Equus' is the language of the horse.

That said, I have no problem using anthropomorphic stories  to explain what is going on. I say the pony is 'taking the mickey' out my daughter when he pretends to need a pee to get a break. What I really mean is he has learned through negative Sr that standing with his back legs out behind him and splayed leads to total cessation of pressure! But that does not trip off the tongue quite so easily as 'kick him on he's taking the...."

But I think MR goes a lot further - he seems to genuinely believe the stories around join-up/Equus etc so I lost interest when I decided that was all just nonsense.


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## peaceandquiet1 (27 March 2018)

I was disgusted when i viewed the programme about the mustang and have had no time for Monty since then.


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## fburton (27 March 2018)

Clodagh said:



			I very much believe in the herd leader thing. My mare, who I worshipped, lived in a stable mixed herd of up to 8 individuals, mares and geldings. When she wanted a drink they formed an orderly queue behind her, and heaven forbid if one tried to push in. She would stand by the trough for ages after she had drunk, making them wait. When she moved away no 2 would come in, and so on. Some shared, some didn't.
I am alpha - when I open the stable door they step back, they do not rub on me or push me around, they hold their heads politely for bridle or headcollar. I expect manners, and enforce them. No beatings, just zero tolerance of bolshiness. The mare in charge never had to do anything more than put her ears back to express her displeasure.
		
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Could it be that your horses have simply learnt manners from your consistent rejection of behaviours you consider rude and rewarding of behaviours you do want? That wouldn't need you to be viewed as another horse.

If this is the case, what does the idea of being 'herd leader' add?


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## southerncomfort (27 March 2018)

Personally I think 'Join Up' a giant con.

Any one of us could lunge or rope circle a horse a couple of times in each direction, unclip them and they'd follow us around.  There is no magic to it, it isn't a short cut to a fantastic relationship with a horse.  It's just plays on the fact that most horses will take the path of least resistance.  Most horses are curious and will follow a human to see what he/she is up to.

It can actually be great fun to play with a horse at liberty and have it follow you over jumps etc and in my book this is far more likely to forge a good partnership than chasing it round a round pen throwing a rope at it.

'Join Up' is Monty Robert's USP so I guess he has to stick with it but I'm not sure it's actually taken training horses any further forward.


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## stormox (27 March 2018)

I think join-up is really silly. Maybe it originated from wild horses that were hard to catch, but most horses these days are too much 'in your face' and lack respect, pampered from foals, bargy and pushy. Join up is useless with these horses.


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## tristar (27 March 2018)

when i am lunging i allow horses to counterbend if they need to, that`s the whole point of humane training, listening to the horse`s needs, its a living creature with feelings!

in time my horses have come to bend sometimes almost overbend to the inside on 10mt lunge circles at times, i am not asking for this they are offering it, i accept it, i use lots of going straight not circles all the time, and lost of the time its done on 16 17 mt circles

if you are in a round pen you can`t go straight, or give the horse a break

i find horses love to feel you there, on the end of the lunge rein, they love the interaction.

i never use 2 reins, my oldest horse practices his canter pirouettes on the lunge at close quarters to whoever is lunging.

all our horse do medium trot on the lunge.

i have sadly, never heard of doctor whatshername orangehorse


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## dogcalleddill (27 March 2018)

This is truly shocking and speaks volumes

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YqI...outube.com/watch?v=YqIdnqPhSf4&has_verified=1


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## fburton (27 March 2018)

dogcalleddill said:



			This is truly shocking and speaks volumes

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YqI...outube.com/watch?v=YqIdnqPhSf4&has_verified=1

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Well, it certainly speaks volumes about horse breaking practices in another country and culture. What happened would be illegal here, and possibly illegal in the US too.

How does it relate to what we're discussing here? I guess we have to ask what would have happened if MR had said "Stop! You can't carry on like this!". What do you think? What _should_ he have done or said?


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## 9tails (27 March 2018)

dogcalleddill said:



			This is truly shocking and speaks volumes

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YqI...outube.com/watch?v=YqIdnqPhSf4&has_verified=1

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This isn't being endorsed by Monty Roberts AT ALL.


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## MotherOfChickens (27 March 2018)

tristar said:



			if you are in a round pen you can`t go straight, or give the horse a break


i have sadly, never heard of doctor whatshername orangehorse
		
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agree re the straight lines-unfortunately too few people know how to lunge well these days.

Dr Deb Bennet-US paleontologist by trade, good on equine anatomy. Has some very interesting things to say about horse maturation, rider and horse weight and some training aspects. for her other stuff (horsemanship) I was unconvinced and she's not known to be the easiest of people.


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## JillA (27 March 2018)

dogcalleddill said:



			This is truly shocking and speaks volumes

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YqI...outube.com/watch?v=YqIdnqPhSf4&has_verified=1

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It's the kind of thing Monty was a reaction to. He had his place, especially in the USA where breaking was very stressful and often downright cruel as I understand it. But his methods have run their course and been superseded by other more sensitive horsemen (and women??) and now he is more of a showman than a horseman IMO - time to retire Monty,  and let the younger generation carry on


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## Nasicus (27 March 2018)

southerncomfort said:



			It can actually be great fun to play with a horse at liberty and have it follow you over jumps etc and in my book this is far more likely to forge a good partnership than chasing it round a round pen throwing a rope at it.
		
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I love playing with my girls at liberty, the youngster has always loved it, but the older mare (who has had a hard life and trust issues) really started to come out of her shell and relax around me once we started the liberty stuff. I know if I tried to chase her around a pen and fling a rope at her, she'd be terrified.


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## JFTDWS (27 March 2018)

stormox said:



			I think join-up is really silly. Maybe it originated from wild horses that were hard to catch, but most horses these days are too much 'in your face' and lack respect, pampered from foals, bargy and pushy. Join up is useless with these horses.
		
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I wonder how far - even if you accept MR's concepts of equine psychology and herd dynamics to be true, which I don't - any of it is applicable to the majority of horses in this country.  So many horses aren't even reared in mixed herds as youngsters and certainly don't live in them as adults.  Given the impact this has on behaviour, I wonder how much, if any, herd-type behaviour is innate and how much is learned.  And if they've never been in the situation to learn these things, they're certainly not going to apply that when a human tries to "tap in" to that behavioural dynamic.


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## JillA (27 March 2018)

JFTD said:



			I wonder how far - even if you accept MR's concepts of equine psychology and herd dynamics to be true, which I don't - any of it is applicable to the majority of horses in this country.  So many horses aren't even reared in mixed herds as youngsters and certainly don't live in them as adults.  Given the impact this has on behaviour, I wonder how much, if any, herd-type behaviour is innate and how much is learned.  And if they've never been in the situation to learn these things, they're certainly not going to apply that when a human tries to "tap in" to that behavioural dynamic.
		
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Except it is hard wired into them as prey animals to get security from the company of others of their own species - look at any equine living on its own. I have studied a little of dog ethology, but not horses but I can see there are conditions in which they used to live as a pack (or herd) which they haven't yet evolved far enough away from to discount. Their behaviour is descended from that which enabled the species to survive, and is still in there.


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## JFTDWS (27 March 2018)

JillA said:



			Except it is hard wired into them as prey animals to get security from the company of others of their own species - look at any equine living on its own.
		
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Well yes, I'm more talking about the MR concepts of responding to the alpha, humans mimicking horse body language and the equus stuff, rather than the very basic instincts which allow prey animals to survive.  I don't think anybody is disputing that horses are herd animals by instinct.


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## fburton (27 March 2018)

If by "the alpha" we mean the most dominant in the group/herd, perhaps we should ask the question: what can the alpha do with body language - and, by extension, what can we do by mimicking it?

One obvious thing it can do is tell other horses to "Go away" or "Get out of my way". What other messages can alpha body language send? Maybe that is all.


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## SEL (27 March 2018)

The first time I ever saw my Appy she was in an arena with someone attempting to 'join up'. It wasn't going well. Even then I thought it was a bit odd you'd try this method on a hand reared horse - she has pretty odd interpretations of horse and human behaviour at the best of times.

She was clueless as to what the human wanted and never once started following them round. The approach of 'sling a rider on her back' was the next step. She bucked violently and went over backwards. Thankfully I wasn't there for that bit and thankfully for her they gave up then.


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## prodigal2 (27 March 2018)

I hate the Alpha thing... I am not a horse and they know it, we smell different for a start, and they are not a human, what we do need to be a aware of is how they react, interact, and comprehend, and use that to build a framework for training. In fairness there is much in the american working tradition, english tradition and classical methodology that works around this and have many similar concepts across these very different styles of training horses.
A good or great trainer will also be a great student and will be constantly reviewing and changing elements as they learn more. Sadly I think MR and some of his ilk are caught in a dogma trap because of how their brands/companies have been built up around certain flag poles of ideology, and we are in a great age for equine scientific research which can highlight better ways for going forward. What I am grateful for from MR, is that he opened the door for a shift in how we approach horses and train, and many of his ways are sound but are wrapped up in a load of sudo science claptrap that does not  bear up under any form of scrutiny. He has a great back story that makes a great narrative to hang a sales pitch around, but at the end of the day he is a sub par Ray Hunt/Dorrance brother with a great USP. If he was a great horseman he would have read the horse and changed the direction of the demonstration, but that would not have been great theatre.


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## Clodagh (27 March 2018)

fburton said:



			Could it be that your horses have simply learnt manners from your consistent rejection of behaviours you consider rude and rewarding of behaviours you do want? That wouldn't need you to be viewed as another horse.

If this is the case, what does the idea of being 'herd leader' add?
		
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Quite possibly, although I have been known to turn round and boot them, like a horse would, I have never mastered putting my ears back. working on it. 
I suppose I would call myself herd leader, but I don't speak fluent 'horse', I just get the larger hints from them. I could just call myself their master, it would make no difference.


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## ycbm (27 March 2018)

fburton said:



			If by "the alpha" we mean the most dominant in the group/herd, perhaps we should ask the question: what can the alpha do with body language - and, by extension, what can we do by mimicking it?

One obvious thing it can do is tell other horses to "Go away" or "Get out of my way". What other messages can alpha body language send? Maybe that is all.
		
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Follow me, I know best.  And if you don't follow me I'll drive you in front of me. My Alpha is a gelding. When he comes in, all come in. When he goes out, all go out. Sometimes the others try and drag him out when he wants to be in , but he won't go and they won't go without him. Humans use this one all the time. 

'This is not safe, I'm out of here'.  If the Alpha is frightened by something, everyone is frightened by it. Any of the other three can be frightened by themselves, but not the Alpha. Humans inadvertently use this one all the time, to ill effect. Nervous handlers/riders make nervous horses.

I'll think of more if you give me enough time


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## ycbm (27 March 2018)

I have never mastered putting my ears back. working on it. 

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...


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## Rowreach (27 March 2018)

prodigal2 said:



			In fairness there is much in the american working tradition, english tradition and classical methodology that works around this and have many similar concepts across these very different styles of training horses.
A good or great trainer will also be a great student and will be constantly reviewing and changing elements as they learn more. Sadly I think MR and some of his ilk are caught in a dogma trap because of how their brands/companies have been built up around certain flag poles of ideology, and we are in a great age for equine scientific research which can highlight better ways for going forward. What I am grateful for from MR, is that he opened the door for a shift in how we approach horses and train, and many of his ways are sound but are wrapped up in a load of sudo science claptrap that does not  bear up under any form of scrutiny. He has a great back story that makes a great narrative to hang a sales pitch around, but at the end of the day he is a sub par Ray Hunt/Dorrance brother with a great USP. If he was a great horseman he would have read the horse and changed the direction of the demonstration, but that would not have been great theatre.
		
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Spot on.


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## 9tails (27 March 2018)

prodigal2 said:



			...
A good or great trainer will also be a great student and will be constantly reviewing and changing elements as they learn more. Sadly I think MR and some of his ilk are caught in a dogma trap because of how their brands/companies have been built up around certain flag poles of ideology, and we are in a great age for equine scientific research which can highlight better ways for going forward...
		
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It's not going to do a thing for his pockets if he turns round now and says that join up is claptrap that's for sure.  I feel that horsemanship is being broken down into painting by numbers.


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## JillA (27 March 2018)

9tails said:



			I feel that horsemanship is being broken down into painting by numbers.
		
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That's Parelli for you!!


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## Chinchilla (27 March 2018)

Haven't read whole thread but don't like MR really. 
I don't understand this whole thing about getting a rider up on them as quickly as possible? It's always struck me as a fast track way to A&E because it doesn't give the horse any good psychological grounding but OK maybe I am just a cynic.
Really don't get how chasing a horse round a tiny pen with a whip is mimicking equine behaviour anyway. Wild horses have huge tracts of land and only their bodies with which to give signals, yet in "join up" you are in a tiny space waving a foreign object at a prey animal. It just doesn't seem a good way to 'bond' with a horse to me and I feel like if I tried it with mine I would lose any "bond" I have with them and possibly risk them retaliating with violence as well due to lots of pressure in a small space and no time for them to adapt mentally and figure out what is going on: the horse in the video didn't look ready to progress to me and I think looked a lovely tolerant kind mare to put up with all that (particularly with strangers in such an environment as a demo setting!)


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## Ambers Echo (27 March 2018)

prodigal2 said:



			A good or great trainer will also be a great student and will be constantly reviewing and changing elements as they learn more. Sadly I think MR and some of his ilk are caught in a dogma trap because of how their brands/companies have been built up around certain flag poles of ideology, and we are in a great age for equine scientific research which can highlight better ways for going forward. What I am grateful for from MR, is that he opened the door for a shift in how we approach horses and train, and many of his ways are sound but are wrapped up in a load of sudo science claptrap that does not  bear up under any form of scrutiny.
		
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Interestingly Mark Rashid has changed repeatedly over the years -but a lot of his students are 'stuck' where he was 15/20 years ago. When I was at a demo a few years ago some people seemed really put out that he no longer advocated things he used to. So I can see why trainers just stick to their USPs. The 'fans' are as rigid and dogmatic as the trainers. And in some cases far more so!


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## photo_jo (27 March 2018)

I remember seeing a video of someone getting a horse to 'join up' with a remote control toy car-obviously that spoke Equus too


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## Chinchilla (27 March 2018)

photo_jo said:



			I remember seeing a video of someone getting a horse to 'join up' with a remote control toy car-obviously that spoke Equus too
		
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that's just sad for the horse.


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## Chinchilla (27 March 2018)

https://phys.org/news/2012-07-urge-rethink-monty-roberts-horse.html


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## fburton (28 March 2018)

ycbm said:



			Follow me, I know best.  And if you don't follow me I'll drive you in front of me. My Alpha is a gelding. When he comes in, all come in. When he goes out, all go out. Sometimes the others try and drag him out when he wants to be in , but he won't go and they won't go without him. Humans use this one all the time.
		
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This may be how join-up works: follow me or else I will keep driving you away - under the assumption that being chased is aversive and something the horse would rather not do. How plausible does this sound to you? Or do you think the human in join-up is actor more like the predator with prey than a dominant horse with a submissive horse? Or something different from either of those?




			'This is not safe, I'm out of here'.  If the Alpha is frightened by something, everyone is frightened by it. Any of the other three can be frightened by themselves, but not the Alpha. Humans inadvertently use this one all the time, to ill effect. Nervous handlers/riders make nervous horses.
		
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This isn't specific to the alpha, though, in that courage/lack of fear or confidence is a quality that a horse or human can show without necessarily being dominant. That would be consistent with the observation that leadership and dominance aren't always seen in the same horse (as in the case of your alpha gelding), and that leadership roles can be quite fluid or dynamic under some circumstances (more natural settings that don't impose the same pressures to compete that domestic regimes often do, see e.g. the video I linked above).

And when it comes to us humans, it is quite possible to be fearless and confident - and express than in our body language - without also being dominant/pushy/driving.


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## fburton (28 March 2018)

Ambers Echo said:



			Interestingly Mark Rashid has changed repeatedly over the years -but a lot of his students are 'stuck' where he was 15/20 years ago. When I was at a demo a few years ago some people seemed really put out that he no longer advocated things he used to. So I can see why trainers just stick to their USPs. The 'fans' are as rigid and dogmatic as the trainers. And in some cases far more so!
		
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I'm curious to know how Mark Rashid has changed in what he advocates, because I haven't really followed what he's been doing since about 15 years ago.


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## fburton (28 March 2018)

Chinchilla said:



			that's just sad for the horse. 

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Why do you think it's sad? From the horse's point of view, is being made to do something by someone controlling a toy car worse than being made to do the same thing by person 'in person'?


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## DabDab (28 March 2018)

I think generally, initiative has more of a part to play than dominance when it comes to one horse/human being the leader in a given situation


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## hopscotch bandit (28 March 2018)

We had a professional  out to our yard yesterday.  They draped a tarpaulin on the floor and using pressure and release techniques got the horse willingly walking over tarpaulin before draping it over its head and body.  He then briefly sat on him for the first time in a head collar and leadrope.  No drama with join up techniques or spending weeks leaning over the horse getting it used to the rider and the weight of a rider.  He's had a good background of in hand work and is well educated for his age.  He will probably be turned away for a time and the same thing will be re-introduced at a later date, whilst the owner continues to work on ground work with him.  He is 3.


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## ester (28 March 2018)

So they have put up a statement about the physical condition of the horse having taken it to a vet and stated what was on the rehoming form 4 years ago when they acquired her. I am not sure why they didn't just address that statement quickly on facebook if they believed it to be untrue rather than let it gain any pace but I guess that is one if the troubles with social media. 

In doing so they do seem to have missed the main point regarding what happened to the horse, personally I think I would have wanted to make an informed decision as to whether it was the right thing for my horses before I sent them but suspect as a lot of people they've not really thought the techniques through. 

https://www.facebook.com/ewncharity/posts/1023288467819937


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## JFTDWS (28 March 2018)

ester said:



			So they have put up a statement about the physical condition of the horse having taken it to a vet and stated what was on the rehoming form 4 years ago when they acquired her. I am not sure why they didn't just address that statement quickly on facebook if they believed it to be untrue rather than let it gain any pace but I guess that is one if the troubles with social media. 

In doing so they do seem to have missed the main point regarding what happened to the horse, personally I think I would have wanted to make an informed decision as to whether it was the right thing for my horses before I sent them but suspect as a lot of people they've not really thought the techniques through. 

https://www.facebook.com/ewncharity/posts/1023288467819937

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I'm not quite sure how the horse can have been relaxed and confident while being lunged and long reined, and yet its actions in the round pen were just it being "fresh".  I'm afraid I doubt her ability to assess the psychological well being of the horse, given that they were happy with the round pen session initially, enough to post a video online and be planning another session the next day.


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## Rowreach (28 March 2018)

I'm afraid I agree ester.  That particular comment could and should have been addressed immediately and could have at least removed that factor from the discussion.

But to my mind, that wasn't really the point.  I would want to know why it was thought a good idea to take rescue ponies there in the first place, and some acknowledgement that, given that video and what was in it, it was perhaps a mistake.

There were a lot of very knowledgeable people commenting on the FB page, and they were all in agreement about the way Mia was treated, without reference to that allegation.


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## be positive (28 March 2018)

JFTD said:



			I'm not quite sure how the horse can have been relaxed and confident while being lunged and long reined, and yet its actions in the round pen were just it being "fresh".  I'm afraid I doubt her ability to assess the psychological well being of the horse, given that they were happy with the round pen session initially, enough to post a video online and be planning another session the next day.
		
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We only saw from just before they put the rider on but in that time she was showing no sign of being fresh, she was lathered up behind the saddle so had obviously been worked fairly hard by then( unless the sweating was due to stress), she was however showing confusion, she did not look relaxed and once the rider was on she looked stressed, confused by being pushed away and the second time she exploded it appeared that she had no option as she had been asking to stop but was not listened to by someone who claims to speak equine, he may speak but that day was certainly not listening.


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## JFTDWS (28 March 2018)

be positive said:



			We only saw from just before they put the rider on but in that time she was showing no sign of being fresh, she was lathered up behind the saddle so had obviously been worked fairly hard by then
		
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That was my feeling too - I don't see how an unfit horse could be fresh after having been lunged and long reined, and the horse in the video certainly didn't look it to me.  

I'm concerned that someone in charge(?) of a rescue is such a poor judge of the horse's state of mind that she thought the horse was in any condition to work, let alone be treated in that manner.


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## be positive (28 March 2018)

JFTD said:



			That was my feeling too - I don't see how an unfit horse could be fresh after having been lunged and long reined, and the horse in the video certainly didn't look it to me.  

I'm concerned that someone in charge(?) of a rescue is such a poor judge of the horse's state of mind that she thought the horse was in any condition to work, let alone be treated in that manner.
		
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It also occurred to me that they have had her for 4 years, knew she was sharp and bored from the sound of things yet with all their experience and knowledge had not actually tried to ride her themselves in order to find her an appropriate home, guessing she is at least 7 or 8 now she would have been better off backed once her foal was weaned and rehomed, it is not dissimilar to the dog rescues that hoard rather than rehome the more problematic dogs or have them pts, no wonder they are always asking for more money when they are keeping otherwise healthy animals for years.


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## EventingMum (28 March 2018)

It's interesting to hear that Mia was lunged and introduced to the saddle and Ardell Dummy before the demo - I thought Monty didn't like lunging? Also I was under the impression many of the horses at his demos hadn't been started at all (ie no lunging or saddle beforehand). 

In Mia's case they say when she went to the rescue she accepted the rider but was not walked on - that rings bells to me, surely if a horse is sat on the next step is a walk and even if she was in foal, at that early on a walk would not have been a problem? I also wonder what else she did in the 4 years with the rescue?  

Many horses like a good buck, rolling and playing when turned out after all the field is their "playground" I don't think that would put me off working them as it's a different set of circumstances - a controlled enviroment with people not an open field. 

All in all I find the whole thing very strange and wonder if other things have happened along the way? I'm not sure things have been done with Mia's best interests at heart.


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## ester (28 March 2018)

The fact that she was backed for 5/6 weeks iirc in her previous home and that the rescue had never asked her to walk on with a rider seems odd to me. 

Monty did say shed had the ardall on, which I think shows how much thats isnt the same!


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## tristar (29 March 2018)

what happened to that coloured horse in the other video was disgusting.


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## Chinchilla (29 March 2018)

fburton said:



			Why do you think it's sad? From the horse's point of view, is being made to do something by someone controlling a toy car worse than being made to do the same thing by person 'in person'?
		
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RC car - no empathy - cannot interact with horse, or respond to its cues. Which is unfair on the horse imho.


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## fburton (29 March 2018)

Chinchilla said:



			RC car - no empathy - cannot interact with horse, or respond to its cues. Which is unfair on the horse imho.
		
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Ah, I see what you mean. In this case, there _was_ a person in the loop, watching the horse and interacting/responding via the car's movement. So there was no danger of the horse being chased beyond the limits of what the person would do if they were in the pen with the horse. Indeed, the person aimed to produce exactly the same series of responses that would be produced by a human trainer. Empathy would still be there, at least in principle, because the person is responding to the horse.

The quality of interaction would certainly be different, though - I'll give you that! I'm just not sure that having an animate object make the horse do certain things rather than a person would in itself be cruel or unfair. What if the person acted via a humanoid robot, producing human movements and observing the horse through the robot's 'eyes'?


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## Ambers Echo (30 March 2018)

fburton said:



			I'm curious to know how Mark Rashid has changed in what he advocates, because I haven't really followed what he's been doing since about 15 years ago.
		
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Well I am no expert and I have not read all his recent stuff, but for example he has moved away from 'make the right thing easy, make the wrong thing difficult' in a lot of situations, in favour of just finding the try. In purely behavioural terms he is probably less -ve reinforcement, +ve punishment (right thing reinforced, wrong thing  punished) and more slow, subtle shaping. 

But where his interest really seems to have gone is Aikido and softness/feel/connection. What I think he calls the 'inside of the horse'. Which is a place I can't really follow him. I have no interest in Aikido and I don't want my horses as feather-light/telepathic as he seems to want his. Plus I like physical cues! He always did have an interest in softness and feel - and riding with awareness of energy/attention etc - which I have found very useful but he seems to have taken that a lot further now.

His books were never 'how to' guides anyway but what he was describing was fairly accessible to anyone with any interest and there was enough information in them to use his ideas. The most recent one on restarting horses is actually quite dull imo and not useful in the same way as it contains lengthy descriptions of very precise responses he makes to very specific behaviours on the part of the horse which could never be replicated as they are so situation specific and aren't rooted in any particular method. At least not that I could tell. 

He's still my favourite trainer though!


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## Chinchilla (30 March 2018)

fburton said:



			Ah, I see what you mean. In this case, there _was_ a person in the loop, watching the horse and interacting/responding via the car's movement. So there was no danger of the horse being chased beyond the limits of what the person would do if they were in the pen with the horse. Indeed, the person aimed to produce exactly the same series of responses that would be produced by a human trainer. Empathy would still be there, at least in principle, because the person is responding to the horse.

The quality of interaction would certainly be different, though - I'll give you that! I'm just not sure that having an animate object make the horse do certain things rather than a person would in itself be cruel or unfair. What if the person acted via a humanoid robot, producing human movements and observing the horse through the robot's 'eyes'?
		
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yes I see now (when it was first mentioned I thought someone meant a fully automated car but god knows why I thought that) but I found the article and posted a link to it; it was actually done as a study into how the join up technique itself works with a person controlling the car and making it chase etc. Still not sure how I got the idea it was automatic but anyway....


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## fburton (31 March 2018)

Chinchilla said:



			yes I see now (when it was first mentioned I thought someone meant a fully automated car but god knows why I thought that) but I found the article and posted a link to it; it was actually done as a study into how the join up technique itself works with a person controlling the car and making it chase etc. Still not sure how I got the idea it was automatic but anyway.... 

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No worries! Thanks for posting the link to the article. 

Although I said that I thought such a setup wouldn't necessarily be cruel or unfair, I should add that I consider it to be far from ideal. Even if the person operating the car was highly skilled and observant, they could never attain the level of communication possible if they were in the pen with the horse - because people are naturally more expressive in their body language, including in often subconscious or unconscious changes in muscle tension, lacking in a mechanical car. However, I reckon someone skilled and sensitive operating a car would be able to get a horse to join-up better (and probably less stressfully for the horse) than a novice there in person... Unless there is something about join-up I am missing - in which case, let's talk about it!

I just wanted to throw these comments out to spark some debate.


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## honetpot (31 March 2018)

I read the article about the car. My comment would be the car has no body language, it's physical shape does not change. Even very young horses pick up on your body language, l use a snap of the fingers or a flat palm, they soon know if you are wound up, your body is stiffer and your movement less fluid, you hold you breath. The only time they get chased if if they refuse to be caught, and I will not let them stand. Eventually it's true they do drop their head but they know I am cross,so we make peace, they are caught, no grudges, and go back to our normal way of communication. I do not think a car is that subtle.


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## Chinchilla (31 March 2018)

honetpot said:



			I read the article about the car. My comment would be the car has no body language, it's physical shape does not change. Even very young horses pick up on your body language, l use a snap of the fingers or a flat palm, they soon know if you are wound up, your body is stiffer and your movement less fluid, you hold you breath. The only time they get chased if if they refuse to be caught, and I will not let them stand. Eventually it's true they do drop their head but they know I am cross,so we make peace, they are caught, no grudges, and go back to our normal way of communication. I do not think a car is that subtle.
		
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Agree. Thank you. This is what I was trying (and failing) to say lol


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## fburton (31 March 2018)

honetpot said:



			I read the article about the car. My comment would be the car has no body language, it's physical shape does not change. Even very young horses pick up on your body language, l use a snap of the fingers or a flat palm, they soon know if you are wound up, your body is stiffer and your movement less fluid, you hold you breath. The only time they get chased if if they refuse to be caught, and I will not let them stand. Eventually it's true they do drop their head but they know I am cross,so we make peace, they are caught, no grudges, and go back to our normal way of communication. I do not think a car is that subtle.
		
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Agree about the lack of subtlety - but what do we take from the fact they managed to get the horse to respond in a way that looks like join-up without subtle, human body language?


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## honetpot (31 March 2018)

fburton said:



			Agree about the lack of subtlety - but what do we take from the fact they managed to get the horse to respond in a way that looks like join-up without subtle, human body language?
		
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As I read it the horse was effectively chased until it submits, which is what usually what horses do to dominate a new member of a herd. The chased either submits or eventually will challenge that domination. It a very old fashioned way of controlling horses.  
If you watch a herd of brood mares the leader very often only has to flick an ear to communicate, it's agreed with a couple of  squeals on meeting an the odd bite who is going to be the leader. Boss es are not physically stronger, but tend to be problem solvers and use their brain, and others learn by watching them. I prefer that leader/teacher model.
 I am very lucky that all my living room windows over look my paddocks so l am able to see how they interact all the daylight hours.


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## ycbm (1 April 2018)

Boss are not physically stronger, but tend to be problem solvers and use their brain, and others learn by watching them
		
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You're not kidding!  I once watched three horses come in for food. A 16 h on one side, a 16.2 on the other and a 32 inch mini in the middle. She tossed her head towards each one, and they dropped back. It was hilarious


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