# Do we amateurs overcomplicate things for ourselves?  :p



## milliepops (12 July 2017)

Please take this in the manner it is intended, which is a light hearted exploration rather than intending to bash anyone!  

Just thought I better get that in at the start!

Something I've been pondering over for a while now but came a bit sharper into focus yesterday.

I went on a BD-organised yard visit to Gareth Hughes which was wonderful, really inspirational. Gareth very clearly explained their approach from the young horse (a recently backed 3yo did a great demo, not perfection but a clear system in place) up to GP.  We were invited to ask questions all the way through which Gareth answered candidly and in detail.

Some of the questions raised reminded me of the kinds of things we discuss here, always coming from a point of concern for the horse's welfare etc - it's all from a good place but I just wondered whether we actually make life harder for ourselves sometimes?  I'll give some examples - if anyone was there, again this is not pointing the finger but cogitating on a theory!

the 3yo was brought out wearing a flash noseband and one of the attendees asked why it wasn't in a cavesson.  Gareth answered to the effect that it is to develop a good habit - that the horse learns from day one to accept the contact and keep a quiet mouth - not so they could strap it's mouth shut, but that it never dawns on the horse to open its mouth and resist. How many of us would press on (or feel we should do) in the cavesson because it's the "right thing" or more horse friendly?  When in fact we are setting up a problem, rather than shutting down the possibility of a problem?


Someone asked about variety in their work - do they do jumping or go to the gallops, and he said no, because they need to be strong for their day job which is dressage, so jumping doesn't actually help them with that.  Dressage training makes them strong for dressage, so that's what they need to do.   They hack and go in the fields etc...  not just drilled in the school  but they don't need extracurricular stuff   
Do others on here feel pressured to add different stuff in, just so we can tick the box? (I don't mean doing things for fun, but for example there was a time when I would have taken a horse on a fun ride because I thought it was good for them - I wouldn't now because it's not helping the training I want to do. Likewise I once thought I should teach Kira to jump, but I've made my peace with that because I've realised she doesn't need to do it, it doesn't help her so we don't do it).

Dunno, would appreciate other people's viewpoints, I realise I'm coming at this from (now) a fairly single minded (and single discipline) amateur perspective but I suspect most of the other people who were there are similar, so it was interesting to have these questions raised... and the answers seemed so obvious that I wondered why sometimes we try to do the right thing but actually make a rod for our own back?


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## ljohnsonsj (12 July 2017)

I agree. Sometimes stuff can't be done textbook, because horses don't read books.

My 4yo wears a flash and a martingale. He has done from early days. Flash for similar reasons, it is very loose but it is there. A martingale as when he used to have a baby moment, his bum went under him and he shot off. When he didn't have a martingale it was scary for both of us. Scary for him as he could throw his head up beyond seeing where he was going, scary for me as all control felt to go out the window. The answer, a martingale. When he used to do it (Grown  out of it now) The martingale and I would stay still and made it feel like he stayed all in one spot, had a moment and  regained his head.

I don't think its so much that people are concerned about welfare, I feel people are more concerned about stuff being 'wrong.' Some people see a martingale or a flash on a 4yo and instantly jump the gun to assume its been rushed and produced incorrectly when sometimes horses just aren't as simple as we'd hope!


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## DabDab (12 July 2017)

Do we over complicate things as amateurs? Yes, undoubtedly. 
Do we often also have horses that no professional would entertain? Yes.


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## ihatework (12 July 2017)

I think a horse that is being produced for a top flight professional discipline is a very different animal to one being produced as a decent amateurs competition horse. Therefore the production of said animal will be different. 
So yes, while I agree many amateurs over think things, I think it is more to do with trying to optimise the performance of the animal they have at that point in time. Pros have a system but most amateurs don't have enough horses, or knowledge, to create a system that works for them routinely.


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## milliepops (12 July 2017)

DabDab said:



			Do we often also have horses that no professional would entertain? Yes.
		
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Oh yes, definitely!  Plus for the most part they are starting with raw material rather than something that someone else has already trained... though yesterday we did see two older horses that had arrived at the yard with a good degree of knowledge and also some issues which had to be untangled before they could progress.


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## Nugget La Poneh (12 July 2017)

Yes. But I think it's now a culture thing to be disturbed/uncomfortable/offended on another's behalf and this gets transferred to animals with sometimes no rational reasoning.

I also think its sometimes that they see a professional doing something that they feel as if they would be chastised for doing if they did it. If the tack used didn't seem to be used excessively like a flash was done up the BHS way, instead of the overcranked method, then I'm okay. 

I think that if the horse is amenable to it, than jumping can help just to break up the monotony and help the horse find it's feet. And for Nugz, it helped him work out flying changes  I don't think anyone outside of the eventing world would expect a GP+ horse to be jumping a Foxhunter course regularly.


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## be positive (12 July 2017)

I had a similar conversation this morning with my farrier and have just seen a response to a thread in tack room that ties in with this, a pro will expect a lot more from their horse when it is being ridden, they won't be concerned with some of the day to day details as they have a pro groom to see to that side of things, they will have a plan and while that plan may be flexible depending on the individual it will be to keep things simple so the horse can make progress within it's field, what it does in it's spare time is not relevant whereas most one horse owners want their horse to be a companion as much as a work horse so do try and do a variety of work, I think it is as much for their own benefit as that of the horse, it has 23 hours a day to itself so expecting about an hour of it's time to do as you want should be no hardship.   

Horses generally like a black and white set of rules, they won't feel constricted by a correctly fitted drop/ flash, martingale if it has always been there and used as Gareth says as a prevention rather than cure, many many years ago I was using the school of an old school producer to start a pony, he came and watched then I was told off as I was not using a drop or martingale to prevent any issues arising, at the time I was young and followed his suggestion, I would not have dared to go back without doing so!! nowadays I use various kit but that day is at the back of my mind so I often pop something on if I feel it may be required before it becomes an issue.

The comment on the other thread was about a horse not walking properly in the school yet it strides out well when hacking on a long rein, no pro would have that problem, not many amateurs  should either, because they will be able to pick it up onto a contact out hacking and transfer that to the school, unsurprisingly a few days  of hacking on a contact has made all the difference.


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## HufflyPuffly (12 July 2017)

Definitely overthink things , as has been said we generally do not have enough horses to make our own system which we know works, so the self doubt and constant re-assessment is a good thing and keeps us from going too far down the wrong path.

However the more I learn and the more research I read and study, I entirely disagree with how a lot of the professionals treat their horses. I cannot agree that using aspects of different disciplines is not beneficial, and there is clear evidence that working on a variety of surfaces is the ideal for limb strength (and I'm not sure the two surfaces of smooth small fields for grazing and the school are enough). 

However maybe this goes back to amateurs and pro's tend to have very different animals on their hands. As I don't mean every horse should be an all-rounder :lol: but if you think of dressage as strength training and show-jumping gymnastic ability then you can see how one might help the other in the less than ideal horse for the chosen discipline.

For Topaz doing specific fitness work of galloping and gymnastic work of jumping is essential to get her stamina levels up, just doing dressage training will never give her the strength and stamina needed for the higher levels. She is not a warmblood, she is not finely built so finds building up fitness harder than more hot-blooded horses (my PBA could out canter her now despite being semi retired!). I would think that some of the heavier set warmbloods would also benefit from fitness work asides from strength work (dressage training).


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## milliepops (12 July 2017)

yes I suppose there are 2 issues in one thread here, 
the one, I can't find fault with though I know others would do - that of pre-empting an issue early in a horse's career... I reckon there are many many people who would come out in a rash at the thought of putting a 3yo in a flash noseband  but the logic was clear - teach the horse - without force - that the contact is comfortable and not to be questioned, at the most impressionable time in their ridden life, and then you don't store up a problem to be fixed later on.  

Would I have done the same thing when starting a horse - probably not if I hadn't thought about it like that... but I might do so now, or at least be quicker to act rather than get stuck in a puritanical "simple is best" way of thinking.

The other... Hmm. I also believe there is evidence that working on a range of surfaces is beneficial, it's what keeps me doing my VERY boring hacking!! The cross-training - it's a personal choice isn't it. For my 2 horses, one is too difficult (read, previously screwed up) and the other is too fragile.   

Gareth made the point that his GP horses might enjoy jumping, but suppose one were to get injured, then he would have a hard time explaining to the owner that the horse was broken because they were trying to give it some "fun". Whereas if they break while doing their job, then that's unfortunate but unavoidable.  Millie is not a GP horse and I don't have an owner, but I feel the same about her now  She loves whizzing up the gallops... but I can't make myself risk her now.


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## madamebonnie (12 July 2017)

I so desperately over analyse everything because I just want to get it right! Again with the single discipline in mind if I think
I get the basics right (I mean aim for perfection) I feel the next steps will slot into place. What I suppose isn't highlighted that it can be quite hard (for the amateur?) to get it RIGHT. I enjoy it but I am learning to be more forgiving of myself. I don't think it helped spending so long on a rehab plan to begin with, makes you extra analytical. 

Re-flashes I am about to use a loose flash as we have a gaping mouth at the moment. All the relevant checks done and bit swapped. But its likely down to his new found power which I am asking him to use more of and accept a correct contact. He is just letting me know it's hard bl**dy work! I am hoping it will say please don't open your mouth when you find it hard and not allow a habit to ingrain. A few weeks/months I hope to have solved this problem...and moved to the next. Under trainers guidance of course!


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## Nugget La Poneh (12 July 2017)

milliepops said:



			Gareth made the point that his GP horses might enjoy jumping, but suppose one were to get injured, then he would have a hard time explaining to the owner that the horse was broken because they were trying to give it some "fun". Whereas if they break while doing their job, then that's unfortunate but unavoidable.  Millie is not a GP horse and I don't have an owner, but I feel the same about her now  She loves whizzing up the gallops... but I can't make myself risk her now.
		
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Accidents happen in the most benign of situations. If horses are turned out there is a risk, same with the gallops. 

But I do see where he is coming from, and I know that I am incredibly lucky (so far) that nugz is very much an allrounder both in disciplines and terrain. There are very many horses that just can't handle more than one discipline and the switch it can require, and as competition horses can be known for their quirks it makes more financial sense to concentrate on the one thing.

I know of an advanced dressage horse that was set in his ways and couldn't tolerate doing anything outside of an arena. It didn't matter if it was a pro (although they did better and bullying him into submission). Learning to jump at the age of 13 was the making of him and his scores improved (I'm also thinking it helped the rider relationship with him too so she rode him differently) and he discovered that hacking was actually okay!! 

I suppose ultimately if I had a competition horse that wasn't mine, I'd think differently


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## ann-jen (12 July 2017)

Slightly off topic (but will admit to being the worst over-thinker ever).... but on the subject of varying work..... I was based at a livery yard that had excellent facilities and yet the hacking was rubbish.... which meant that my horses did a fair amount of work in the school.... I moved them a few months ago to a yard where the hacking is unbelievable! I now have access to miles and miles of hills and varied terrain off road and on. I rarely school either of the horses now and yet the youngster's flatwork has come on leaps and bounds since the move. I have a flat lesson once a fortnight and my instructor has commented on how much fitter she looks and she just seems to accept and find the work easier. We are having a crack at our first elementary next week. I can only put this down to the hill work. She is also quite an introverted type, who finds some of the big venues a bit mind boggling.... since hacking through fields with livestock, encountering a herd of sheep being herded up a road by 2 collies and a quad etc etc.... she just now seems to be all round braver and at the area festival last month took the atmosphere in her stride 9other than 1 spooky flower pot at k lol) Also as an aside she also does low level BS and I would consider her an all rounder with a dressage bias.... but def feel that the other things I do with her all compliment and help with the rest.


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## HufflyPuffly (12 July 2017)

Ah yes it should only be done on the balance it is beneficial, I was taking the fun part out of it. 

Cross-training in my mind can take many forms and fast work/ galloping is actually more use for stamina building for Topaz than jumping, the jumping is great for suppleness over her back.

In my mind, the idea that a professional (or anyone really ) can say it's ok it broke doing the job it's 'suppose' to is probably what I object to, if a bit of variety might have meant it didn't break at all because it was using different muscle groups, placing strain on different areas (not the same tendons and ligaments all the time, like hocks in dressage horses) and maintaining a healthier hoof/leg/body function. 

I think that is what I find upsetting about some of the systems out there, never mind the horse might be overall healthier, I cannot do XYZ because it is a 'discipline-specific' horse and I cannot justify if it hurt itself doing it...

Different kettle of fish to managing a horse with specific physical (or mental ) issues where you then make the call on what is appropriate for that individual. 

Hope that makes sense ...

Stopping problems before they start, not sure on this as it's not something I've considered... Skylla was backed in a cavesson  and I do not use a martingale/ bungee/ side reins/ or really any other sort of thing. It may explain why she's taking longer to settle into a contact (though her build is what makes a longer/lower outline a struggle). Might ponder this some more as I have been debating a drop/flash to give her some extra stability...


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## ihatework (12 July 2017)

Re the flash thing - too many people (amateur and professional), have the flash too tight. Sometimes way to tight othertimes just the wrong side of snug. 
I have no issue with using a flash, but it has to be remembered that the horse must be able to open mouth, swallow, move bit, breathe!


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## milliepops (12 July 2017)

Nugget La Poneh said:



			Accidents happen in the most benign of situations. If horses are turned out there is a risk, same with the gallops.
		
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preaching to the choir here - 4 injuries in 4 years, one on the gallops and 3 in the field.... 4 lots of rehab, 4 years off. which is why I now feel *uber* protective of my own horse!




			But I do see where he is coming from, and I know that I am incredibly lucky (so far) that nugz is very much an allrounder both in disciplines and terrain. There are very many horses that just can't handle more than one discipline and the switch it can require, and as competition horses can be known for their quirks it makes more financial sense to concentrate on the one thing.
		
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I don't know if it's that so much - I came to dressage from eventing, on the same horse, so I have a background in producing an all rounder but now only want to compete in one discipline. 
Having had all the injuries above, tbh the inclination to do anything other than her new day job has vanished... and I only have a horse at AM, not GP!


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## Embo (12 July 2017)

AlexHyde said:



			Definitely overthink things , as has been said we generally do not have enough horses to make our own system which we know works, so the self doubt and constant re-assessment is a good thing and keeps us from going too far down the wrong path.

However the more I learn and the more research I read and study, I entirely disagree with how a lot of the professionals treat their horses. I cannot agree that using aspects of different disciplines is not beneficial, and there is clear evidence that working on a variety of surfaces is the ideal for limb strength (and I'm not sure the two surfaces of smooth small fields for grazing and the school are enough). 

However maybe this goes back to amateurs and pro's tend to have very different animals on their hands. As I don't mean every horse should be an all-rounder :lol: but if you think of dressage as strength training and show-jumping gymnastic ability then you can see how one might help the other in the less than ideal horse for the chosen discipline.

For Topaz doing specific fitness work of galloping and gymnastic work of jumping is essential to get her stamina levels up, just doing dressage training will never give her the strength and stamina needed for the higher levels. She is not a warmblood, she is not finely built so finds building up fitness harder than more hot-blooded horses (my PBA could out canter her now despite being semi retired!). I would think that some of the heavier set warmbloods would also benefit from fitness work asides from strength work (dressage training).
		
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Yep, pretty much agree with everything here! And I know I definitely over think things!

There are so many varying factors with training so it's impossible to say what's best for each individual horse or rider. I don't like the idea of a non-varied workload, but then I'm not a pro dressage rider with a string of owners, nor do I have a horse that will lose concentration in flat schooling it did some jumping the day before.

I guess I would probably think differently if that were the case 

Being geared towards or specialising in one particular discipline does skew opinions, I think.


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## milliepops (12 July 2017)

AlexHyde said:



			In my mind, the idea that a professional (or anyone really ) can say it's ok it broke doing the job it's 'suppose' to is probably what I object to, if a bit of variety might have meant it didn't break at all because it was using different muscle groups, placing strain on different areas (not the same tendons and ligaments all the time, like hocks in dressage horses) and maintaining a healthier hoof/leg/body function. 

I think that is what I find upsetting about some of the systems out there, never mind the horse might be overall healthier, I cannot do XYZ because it is a 'discipline-specific' horse and I cannot justify if it hurt itself doing it...
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I've paraphrased what he said, to be clear he didn't say that it was OK if the horse broke doing its job, more that if an owner has spent £100ks on a horse that breaks down, it's more acceptable/explainable as the rider/trainer if it was doing the job the owner bought the horse for, than if they went for a hooley round the woods or it stepped on a pole doing some jumping.

I totally understand that point of view, and at a sentimental rather than financial level, I feel exactly the same about my old campaigner, she doesn't need to jump now, nor go for hooleys, so if I did that with her for my own enjoyment and she broke down then I couldn't live with myself 

Don't get me wrong, I reckon part of the reason why Millie has been so nice to compete is because eventing gave her such a great education - those old legs have taken a pounding over the years...


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## Nugget La Poneh (12 July 2017)

milliepops said:



			I don't know if it's that so much - I came to dressage from eventing, on the same horse, so I have a background in producing an all rounder but now only want to compete in one discipline. 
Having had all the injuries above, tbh the inclination to do anything other than her new day job has vanished... and I only have a horse at AM, not GP!
		
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I'm only concentrating on dressage for me as I prefer all four feet comparatively on the floor


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## milliepops (12 July 2017)

Embo said:



			Being geared towards or specialising in one particular discipline does skew opinions, I think.
		
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Oh yes, definitely... As would personal drive or ambitions etc.


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## HufflyPuffly (12 July 2017)

milliepops said:



			I've paraphrased what he said....

I totally understand that point of view, and at a sentimental rather than financial level, I feel exactly the same about my old campaigner, she doesn't need to jump now, nor go for hooleys, so if I did that with her for my own enjoyment and she broke down then I couldn't live with myself 

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Don't worry I didn't take it that he said that exactly .

I think your reasons are for the benefit of Millie, so there is no question that placing her tendons and ligaments under stress galloping about (or tight turns doing jumping I'm guessing) are absolutely not good for her and would only be for the fun element not overall health benefit. So in my mind at least ,it's separate to those who won't even if it could be of use for the horse.


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## milliepops (12 July 2017)

on a personal level it's a tough call, because she needs more regular physio for her back if she doesn't do any proper open canterwork - before she got injured on the damn gallops I was using them to help her for exactly that reason. Now hacking past them just brings back bad memories, lol!  I know Kira would benefit from using them *mentally*... but once bitten & all that.


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## HufflyPuffly (12 July 2017)

milliepops said:



			on a personal level it's a tough call, because she needs more regular physio for her back if she doesn't do any proper open canterwork - before she got injured on the damn gallops I was using them to help her for exactly that reason. Now hacking past them just brings back bad memories, lol!  I know Kira would benefit from using them *mentally*... but once bitten & all that.
		
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Us overthink things??? Never :lol:!

I am quite sure you do the absolute best you can for them and if that means more physio rather than canter work to keep her tip top I don't think you can say you're doing a bad job!


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## milliepops (12 July 2017)

AlexHyde said:



			Us overthink things??? Never :lol:!

I am quite sure you do the absolute best you can for them and if that means more physio rather than canter work to keep her tip top I don't think you can say you're doing a bad job!
		
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so back to the original point as it wasn't intended to be a thread about me, lol ...  but what makes that any different to a super megabucks horse getting the physio every week/water treadmill/alternative methods, rather than actually doing the poles or galloping? 

Arguably it's a safer way to do it  

I wouldn't want to place a value judgement on anything, many (most?) amateur horses are multidisciplinary because their riders enjoy different things, but for those of us who have gone down one specific road.... I just feel like there is plenty to learn from the pros who don't appear to get drawn into 'should do' or 'mustn't do' things like the examples I've given 

Dunno, but I feel that places like this forum drum some stuff into you like gospel - only use a snaffle, only use a cavesson, must do different work, must do this, mustn't do that... whereas the people who actually make the big time don't appear to be concerned by the same things!  lol!


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## Jenni_ (12 July 2017)

I overthink things! God I had my horse retired and breeding me a foal and all she'd done was strain her back!

Friend is encouraging me to get my first BE booked, and I was giving it 'but what if X Y Z, This isn't perfect, that isn't perfect, what if I ruin my horse etc etc.' and she just looked at me and said 'you can ride, you can do all the bits separate, you're going to have to do a first event at some point and how will you know what to work in if you don't give it a go?'

Which was a very fair point...

We cross train, hill work, road work, longreining, lunging- Skye was so fit and strong - and then she was an idiot in the field and BAM- all the work undone cause she needed time off. But then maybe I should be keeping her in 24/7 like the pros


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## Goldenstar (12 July 2017)

Karen Dixon once said to me you get on the horse then you make what you need to happen , don't think about it do it .
Guilty as charged I am a thinker .


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## HufflyPuffly (12 July 2017)

milliepops said:



			so back to the original point as it wasn't intended to be a thread about me, lol ...  but what makes that any different to a super megabucks horse getting the physio every week/water treadmill/alternative methods, rather than actually doing the poles or galloping? 

Arguably it's a safer way to do it  

I wouldn't want to place a value judgement on anything, many (most?) amateur horses are multidisciplinary because their riders enjoy different things, but for those of us who have gone down one specific road.... I just feel like there is plenty to learn from the pros who don't appear to get drawn into 'should do' or 'mustn't do' things like the examples I've given 

Dunno, but I feel that places like this forum drum some stuff into you like gospel - only use a snaffle, only use a cavesson, must do different work, must do this, mustn't do that... whereas the people who actually make the big time don't appear to be concerned by the same things!  lol!
		
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Nothing too different  but from the vets mouth so to speak water treadmills carry a much higher risk of injury than poles or gallops for the average horse. The technician is completely key for the water treadmill for example as they need to set the limits of water height and resistance perfectly as it is critical to not straining things, and unless you can use one frequently they still carry a high risk of strain (sorry spent too much time at vet hospitals recently). 

For me it's actually making it simple eek3, horse is capable and sound to start with, whats the best way to build her up and whats the simplest way?

For me pro's have to make their time count, time is money and if they can put the horse on a walker/ treadmill/ etc whilst they ride/ teach/ eat/ sleep then I can see why they do it. Long term I'm not sure (I know Valegro used a water treadmill but I think it was for specific times to build up for specific events...).

Agree there is no right or wrong way sometimes, and will bow out and carry on reading with interest now .


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## Lammy (12 July 2017)

milliepops said:



			Someone asked about variety in their work - do they do jumping or go to the gallops, and he said no, because they need to be strong for their day job which is dressage, so jumping doesn't actually help them with that.  Dressage training makes them strong for dressage, so that's what they need to do.   They hack and go in the fields etc...  not just drilled in the school  but they don't need extracurricular stuff   
Do others on here feel pressured to add different stuff in, just so we can tick the box? (I don't mean doing things for fun, but for example there was a time when I would have taken a horse on a fun ride because I thought it was good for them - I wouldn't now because it's not helping the training I want to do. Likewise I once thought I should teach Kira to jump, but I've made my peace with that because I've realised she doesn't need to do it, it doesn't help her so we don't do it).
		
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Just to add into this, I'm sure I've seen somewhere that a popular dressage rider (I want to say Carl but it might not be) has his horses jump as he feels that it uses different muscle groups which in turn benefit their dressage training. Not saying they whack up a 1.50m course and wing round but I don't see why gridwork or something of that like wouldn't be beneficial both physically and mentally?

I would also say amateur riders are more likely to have their horses learn to do things outside of their specific discipline to make them easier to sell on if they need to. My youngster is going to be geared towards eventing so he'll do everything anyway but if he was designed for purely dressage I would be making sure he could cope with a small course of jumps too so that if it came to selling him I could market him more easily as an allrounder. I doubt that even comes into it with a pro rider.


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## HeresHoping (12 July 2017)

Lammy said:



			Just to add into this, I'm sure I've seen somewhere that a popular dressage rider (I want to say Carl but it might not be) has his horses jump as he feels that it uses different muscle groups which in turn benefit their dressage training. Not saying they whack up a 1.50m course and wing round but I don't see why gridwork or something of that like wouldn't be beneficial both physically and mentally?
		
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Carl jumps his horses, I believe, as does Ingrid Klimke (who admittedly is a cross-discipliner  ). I know of one well known stud/producer who definitely does cavaletti work - actually, Danny Morgan bought a dressage horse from them, and the horse now does a bit of eventing to boot.

I am glad times are a changing. Yes, we do overthink things as amateurs but there was a time when horses would be disciplined for bad behaviour by the pros, ridden through it... the number of times we saw (e.g.) 'He's a devil in the dressage arena, spends most of his schooling time on his front legs with the hinds over my head, just have to pray he gives us 7 minutes reprieve on the day. He's a machine over the fences though' in the press.

We amateurs with our non-disposable horses wouldn't have ridden through such situations. We'd be getting them investigated. I'm not saying the pros wouldn't, or that they are all like those with the above attitude - but it was not so long ago that they wouldn't have thought twice about bad behaviour being anything but that. A fairly well known pro told me to beat the crap out of my TB for bronking. Said TB had a fractured pelvis that hadn't healed properly.


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## SusieT (12 July 2017)

The flash arguement is crap - the only way it trains a horse to not open its mouth is by not letting it open its mouth - a horse who doesnt need to open his mouth will generally not...
And I would say he just doesn't think outside the box and probably isn't too bothered by his horses getting sour imo - sounds like a mass production yard to me rather than an enlightening one.


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## milliepops (12 July 2017)

Interesting opinion Susie but we saw 6 happy forward thinking settled horses being ridden,  who willingly offered their work in a relaxed way... I don't think that  was a special day given the other examples I've seen of their horses in competition.


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## DabDab (12 July 2017)

milliepops said:



			Dunno, but I feel that places like this forum drum some stuff into you like gospel - only use a snaffle, only use a cavesson, must do different work, must do this, mustn't do that... whereas the people who actually make the big time don't appear to be concerned by the same things!  lol!
		
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Yes, no matter which group of people you talk to about horses, there always seems to be a tendency to develop a received wisdom about how to do things, even in a group of horsey people as disparate as HHO. I've noticed the same thing on established livery yards - you'll find all sorts of weird quirks e.g. Everyone obsessed with bitting, and not to worried about any other piece of tack, or  lots of people using one particular training aid while condemning all others, whole yards of people who hack little or never (despite good hacking being available), yards where the vet may as well move in....
This forum just seems to tend a little towards the puritanical collective viewpoint.

I think where amateur riders really fall down from over complicating things is when they don't hold their nerve and keep going with something that does make sense. Constantly chopping and changing with routines, feed, tack, training regimes, workload etc etc. does horses no good. IME you are better to stick with something that isn't quite perfect than mucking the horse around constantly. 

The most contented yard I ever encountered was a pro yard producing show jumpers. Staff consisted of me, one other and the owner, and we all rode and did yard jobs. The horses were never turned out, they were hacked out every day they didn't compete, plus went on the walker once a day. Each horse competed at least once a week. It's not a routine many would be happy with, but if I was to objectively pick one method to follow it would have to be that one as it was far and away the most 'successful'


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## ycbm (12 July 2017)

.......  rash at the thought of putting a 3yo in a flash noseband but the logic was clear - teach the horse - without force - that the contact is comfortable and not to be questioned, at the most impressionable time in their ridden life, and then you don't store up a problem to be fixed later on.
		
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Or is he teaching the horse learned helplessness that using its mouth to express discontent will not be tolerated?


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## milliepops (12 July 2017)

ycbm said:



			Or is he teaching the horse learned helplessness that using its mouth to express discontent will not be tolerated?
		
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it depends on how you think horses learn or how horses accept things i guess. 

If you have an olympic standard pair of hands on the end of the reins, every day, and the horse has A class care and management for it's body, then is there any reason to think that a 3yo would not have a positive experience of the contact pretty much every time it was ridden? and therefore not need to express discontent?

I'm not viewing this through rose tinted spectacles, I don't believe that all pro yards are perfect, but I do believe it is possible to teach a horse from day one that the contact is a positive thing, yet I can see that it would make sense to have a back up aid to prevent the adoption of a negative habit, whether that be something innocuous like lip flapping or something more significant.


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## milliepops (12 July 2017)

DabDab said:



			The most contented yard I ever encountered was a pro yard producing show jumpers. Staff consisted of me, one other and the owner, and we all rode and did yard jobs. The horses were never turned out, they were hacked out every day they didn't compete, plus went on the walker once a day. Each horse competed at least once a week. It's not a routine many would be happy with, but if I was to objectively pick one method to follow it would have to be that one as it was far and away the most 'successful'[/QUOTE

interesting, an example of horses not only not having read the book, but not even knowing the book exists 

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## milliepops (12 July 2017)

AlexHyde said:



			Agree there is no right or wrong way sometimes, and will bow out and carry on reading with interest now .
		
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Ahhh don't bow out,  I think we've gone in a bit of a tangent but please carry on posting


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## daffy44 (12 July 2017)

Another good topic!

I certainly think some amateurs over think and therefore over complicate things, when I teach one one of the most common issues is to ask riders to do less, and be clearer, from a riding point of view the rider who overcomplicates often gives very muddy signals. 

From a more general point of view I think, as ever, every horse is an individual, and thats the most important thing.  For example, we are all told how great hacking is for our horses, and I agree with this, and hack my horses, but I have had one that just hated it, to the point of being dangerous, so that horse didnt hack, simple as that.  If I tried to take my psg horse on a fun ride, I think he would kill me, so I would never do it!  But my gp horse would be absolutely fine, it all comes down to respecting the individual.  I do think a certain amount of variety is helpful for competition horses, but its a balancing act between the positive benefits and the risk involved, and you have to really think what is constructive for each discipline.


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## Micropony (12 July 2017)

I am the Queen of overthinking, so guilty as charged, but I do have some pleas in mitigation:
1. Professional riders and most very experienced amateurs will have forgotten more than I will ever learn, so things that are second nature to them, both regarding riding and horse care, are things I need to think about and/or work through from first principles, chat through with other people, and perhaps even post about on a forum of some sort!
2. These people have the skills and stickability to be able to sort out most problems they are likely to encounter, so they are generally quite happy to just crack on with stuff and worry about problems if they appear. For example, load up a 4yo, take it out for school hire/course hire and then crack on with proper competing. I, on the other hand, don't have the same toolkit to draw on, so I will break things down into much smaller steps and do things more gradually. To them it would probably seem a bit daft/pathetic, but for someone like me it is a sensible way to do things.

I also think it's relevant that pros' horses are being trained for a different job to most horses that belong to amateurs and leisure riders. Their job is to be a single discipline specialist, my horse's job isn't. They have a living to earn from those horses, a 6yo that's still faffing about at prelim or novice or even at elementary has lost them a shedload of money. And every hour that a pro spends playing over jumps with their dressage horse or whatever is an hour's wages that have to be paid, or an hour that isn't spent doing something that directly helps that horse learn and do its job better.

I keep my horse at a yard where there are plenty of leisure riders but also a few pros competing at the upper levels, and producing young sport horses for sale, and it's really interesting to see some of the differences with how 'normal people' tend to do things. 

If a pro horse needs lots of variety to keep its head straight, that's not necessarily going to be a horse that's going to be a success as a professional competition horse. Being able to move well or jump high is all very well, but they also have to want to do the job, or at least be reasonably cheerful about it. Any that can't cope with that life will be moved on. And, as I was told a week or two ago, 'you're not going to get to grand prix hacking twice a week and mucking about over jumps'.

I think it's also relevant that many of these top dressage horses are bred and trained to be razor sharp. Not many of those would perhaps give a rider the most comfortable feeling in the world on a hack that involves idiotic drivers passing fast and close, lorries, buses and massed local cycling clubs. So if they're not blessed with idyllic off road hacking, are many pros really likely to do much hacking on horses worth more than lots of people pay for their homes?


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## Fiona (12 July 2017)

I definitely see the point of your first example,  in fact I've just done that very thing with my baby connie. 

The second. .. not so much,  I'd look at jumping as being good for the horses head (if they enjoy it obviously ) as well as their joints and muscles...

Great discussion point  

Fiona


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## Bernster (12 July 2017)

What micropony said! &#55357;&#56835;


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## Curly_Feather (13 July 2017)

We definitely overthink things. Often from a horse management point of view, but oh-so-very-often from a training point of view. If Dobbin is having an off day, we want to find a squillion reasons not to train properly. I'm really *REALLY* working on not making excuses for myself or my horse anymore. 

My instructor is encouraging me to insist on quality. And if he's being stiff or uncooperative or distracted or strong, that is no reason to back off. Don't get emotional and try to come up with a list of things that might be bothering him/me that could excuse him/me. Find a cold and stubborn core of yourself, and quietly but very firmly insist on the quality of the work that you want.


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## HeresHoping (13 July 2017)

Am just coming back to this, because the flash thing is really bothering me. I've spent an age looking at videos of youngsters in training on Yootoob and the lack of flash is a paucity. There is an argument, albeit not much shouted about, that the flash, or drop, serves to stabilise the bit in the horse's mouth. I confess I ride in a drop because I have a chewer but have recently reconsidered this and she's back in the cavesson. The stability argument is rather defeated if you ride in a loose ring, the purpose of which is to aid the counteraction to your horse leaning on the bit.

Sue Dyson and her team have been doing some research recently - it's certainly not a new topic but because it's Sue I guess the research is solidifying/getting a PR boost - on facial expressions. If you prevent a horse from opening its mouth, how can you know that what you are asking it to achieve is not causing issues that will be compounded in the long term? (Or am I overthinking this?). We know that training a horse for the upper echelons of the dressage world requires significant muscle development and the contortions (for want of a better word) we ask the horse to go through to develop those muscles are for what we deem self carriage, a target of efficiency in carrying our weight and performing. And for comparison, I am sure gymnasts and other athletes go through the same. To achieve those appropriate muscles and stances the training can be tough. Show me a gymnast not gurning whilst swinging on the bars or rings . But at what point are we, like ycbm says, "teaching the horse learned helplessness that using its mouth to express discontent will not be tolerated?"

If we tie up his mouth, how do we know he's really not happy as opposed to 'Urgh, this is difficult but hey, no pain no gain...'?


[video=youtube;JKzwPrIShTY]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JKzwPrIShTY&t=84s[/video]


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## Auslander (13 July 2017)

I think that we overcomplicate things in terms of trying to achieve the "ideal" scenario, when in reality, "ideal" may not suit the horse in front of us.
I spent a long time trying to get Alfs shoes off, with all the accompanying diet/exercise stuff going on too. In reality, I can't work him hard enough for his feet to cope barefoot, and he is uncomfortable hacking without shoes. I promised him a long time ago that I would do whatever it took to keep him pain free, and so I put the shoes back on him. It's not what I wanted, but it's what works for him

I also took the flash strap off a horse I have here to produce. I explained how much I disliked flashes to his owner, and she was fine with me taking it off. He's a bit of a gurner, and no amount of sympathetic riding/dentist/chiro persuaded him not to be gobby. Put the flash strap back on him a few weeks ago, and he promptly stopped gurning. Lesson learned

I'm reminded on a daily basis that every horse has it's own preferences/needs. Trying to make them all fit in with my "ideal" makes life difficult - and I'm not doing it any more!


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## ycbm (13 July 2017)

I don't have the best hands in the world. I'm inconsistent, and can be snatchy.   My current cob has done more than any instructor to improve me.  If my hands are bad, his mouth is gaping wide open. If they're good, it's quietly shut. If he'd had a flash or drop on, he wouldn't be able to teach me like that.

Flash nosebands are a fashion that's been around write a few years now. I'm waiting in hope they die out for the sake of the horses that don't need them. It breaks my heart to see horses in the hunting field unable to open their mouths even to yawn, for hours at a stretch. I accept that they are a useful piece of kit for some horses, but not the number that they are on now.


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## madamebonnie (13 July 2017)

I was thinking about cross training last night as I stumbled around some 50cm fences. I have quite happily jumped a 90cm course in the past on (relatively) experienced horses but teaching a horse to jump is complete alien territory for me. We are learning together, I am not particularly fussed as I think I will always enjoy schooling more but we are making small steps in progress.

But it made me think about the pro/semi pros I see on social media. Lots of them seem to love their horses jumping occasionally...HOWEVER they do seem to get the 'resident showjumper/brave teen' to do most of the jumping. I'm sure George would do much better under the guidance of someone else. I could pay/beg/ask someone to do it for me, but would he gain more in terms of physical benefits? Or physical benefits? Probably keep him on his toes more as he has to do more thinking than me!


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## milliepops (13 July 2017)

ycbm said:



			I don't have the best hands in the world. I'm inconsistent, and can be snatchy.   My current cob has done more than any instructor to improve me.  If my hands are bad, his mouth is gaping wide open. If they're good, it's quietly shut. If he'd had a flash or drop on, he wouldn't be able to teach me like that.

Flash nosebands are a fashion that's been around write a few years now. I'm waiting in hope they die out for the sake of the horses that don't need them. It breaks my heart to see horses in the hunting field unable to open their mouths even to yawn, for hours at a stretch. I accept that they are a useful piece of kit for some horses, but not the number that they are on now.
		
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this is a different question then to the one originally posed - you're bringing your own baggage to the table  

The horse that was demonstrated was ridden for 20 minutes,  definitely could open its mouth if it wanted to, in fact it softly chewed the bit at times when it was figuring out the right canter transition, and the noseband was there not to shut its mouth, but to prevent it from gaping. I think that's different to a horse ridden for hours, with the mouth strapped shut?  

I also have a gape-er, making no bones about it she was badly ridden as a young horse and carries a lot of tension - I've had to retrain her about the contact  and when she's soft to the contact then her mouth is closed. I ride her in a loose drop when in a snaffle to prevent her from getting control because if she gapes her mouth, her neck goes tight and then I can't help her through her tension. Would you call that learned helplessness?  Well all riding is, to a small degree, because we need the horse to learn to prioritise our instructions over their own instinct. Is it covering the problem? No, because I can still feel if her jaw gets tense, it's just quicker and easier to help her to release it.


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## Girlracer (13 July 2017)

What a good thread! 

And I totally agree that we over complicate things. Every little thing that goes wrong I think there must be a problem, I spend my whole time being stressed about him being sore, not enjoying his work, being unhappy... the list goes on! It's actually exhausting. 

But I think the age of the internet doesn't help, if you air any issue it is immediately questioned as to whether it's saddle, ulcers, kissing spine etc etc... and don't get me wrong it is so important we are aware and have horses welfare at the forefront but sometimes I guess we should just crack on to an extent.


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## JFTDWS (13 July 2017)

I reckon it'll be a cold day in hell before I come around to the idea that specialised training is superior to cross training.  I do think horses need to work on a variety of surfaces and do different forms of exercise for their long term health and soundness (and yes, I accept that all forms of exercise come with a risk a injury).  I also think that young horses should work across, and be turned out on, varied surfaces and "rough" or imperfect terrain - to facilitate their proprioceptive learning as well as musculoskeletal development.  There are certainly professionals out there who do these things - it isn't a pro - am divide.

For an amateur's horse, I think these things are important as few amateurs can guarantee a home for life.  I wouldn't sell my two, but I could walk under a bus tomorrow.  It falls to me to make my horses as desirable and useful as possible, so that their lives may continue to be secure.  Professionals may sell horses, but they're usually high performance animals who are more likely to get a home with a serious competitive amateur (or an over-ambitious idiot, but since the professional is less likely - on a mathematical basis - to be as emotionally invested in the horse's future, does that matter?).

Does this over-complicate things?  Maybe...  But I didn't buy horses to have a nice, simple life and work in a metaphorical straight line towards a goal.  I could do that in many sports - the wonders of equestrianism, for me, come from all the weird little blips that horses throw at you, and the creative circumnavigation with which you have to respond.  They're animals, not machines designed to do one job.  I believe that good horsemanship comes from working with the whole horse, not just the bits which are useful to you.  

That doesn't mean that every horse should do every job.  If your horse hates jumping, is lethal to hack, or has soundness issues that mean a form of exercise (be it jumping, galloping or schooling) is inappropriate, you work with the individual.  But you work the horse across the whole spectrum of work that is available to it, as far as is possible.

Oh and yes - I do have form for internet equestrian evangelism.  But I don't hugely care about a correctly fitted flash (although I personally wouldn't use one unless I had an issue arise which necessitated it).


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## nikkimariet (13 July 2017)

I've been asked why I've got Nova in a flash (from day one of being bitted). My answer was almost word for word what Gareth has said.

Similarly, I've been quizzed over why he has a bungee on. Same thing. Throwing your head around and knocking yourself off balance isn't an option. It's not tight, it doesn't encourage an outline. It just stops him hollowing to the point that it actually makes the work harder for him.

On the flip side, I received a bizarre amount of congratulatory comments regarding riding Fig in a snaffle for a season at PSG. The tack suited the horse at that particular moment of training. If he had been happy in his double, he would have remained in it. Nothing about 'being kinder' to the him, just what he preferred!

With regards to varied training - we do what makes the horse (and ourselves) happy. Professionals and their horses usually have access to private hacking, walkers, treadmills and canter tracks. And the rest of us usually don't, so it's up to us to vary it. I take Fig to the gallops because our hacking sucks and we enjoy it. I do jumping because it tightens his grass belly, strengthens his back and we enjoy it. But I do agree with GH that it's the dressage work that gets Fig fit for his 'job'. I can't build the strength for the pi/pa any other way than by working the pi/pa. Everything else is a bonus/add on.

There's a trend for 'nice to see XXX treated like a horse' when a fit competition horse is seen hacking, or out in the field. Well... What if said horse doesn't like hacking, or going out in the field? We've had bad hackers, and Fig is a prime example of a horse that isn't hugely keen on turnout. What then? And why does that (sometimes) mean we are to presume those not offering such options to their horses are lesser owners?

I think of it like this: horses haven't read the textbook, rarely do they comply with them. Think outside the box and stick to your guns. Far too often do I see people doubt themselves, change their processes to suit what others dictate and then end up not quite where they want or should be.

P.S. I do a little facepalm (sometimes in my head) when I see/hear 'oh I don't like spurs'. Oh ok then, you just carry on pointlessly waggling that great big whip and nagging the horse then... You mean you don't like spurs used incorrectly. Sure. Horses don't like spurs used incorrectly either.


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## Mike007 (14 July 2017)

nikkimariet said:



			I've been asked why I've got Nova in a flash (from day one of being bitted). My answer was almost word for word what Gareth has said.

Similarly, I've been quizzed over why he has a bungee on. Same thing. Throwing your head around and knocking yourself off balance isn't an option. It's not tight, it doesn't encourage an outline. It just stops him hollowing to the point that it actually makes the work harder for him.

On the flip side, I received a bizarre amount of congratulatory comments regarding riding Fig in a snaffle for a season at PSG. The tack suited the horse at that particular moment of training. If he had been happy in his double, he would have remained in it. Nothing about 'being kinder' to the him, just what he preferred!

With regards to varied training - we do what makes the horse (and ourselves) happy. Professionals and their horses usually have access to private hacking, walkers, treadmills and canter tracks. And the rest of us usually don't, so it's up to us to vary it. I take Fig to the gallops because our hacking sucks and we enjoy it. I do jumping because it tightens his grass belly, strengthens his back and we enjoy it. But I do agree with GH that it's the dressage work that gets Fig fit for his 'job'. I can't build the strength for the pi/pa any other way than by working the pi/pa. Everything else is a bonus/add on.

There's a trend for 'nice to see XXX treated like a horse' when a fit competition horse is seen hacking, or out in the field. Well... What if said horse doesn't like hacking, or going out in the field? We've had bad hackers, and Fig is a prime example of a horse that isn't hugely keen on turnout. What then? And why does that (sometimes) mean we are to presume those not offering such options to their horses are lesser owners?

I think of it like this: horses haven't read the textbook, rarely do they comply with them. Think outside the box and stick to your guns. Far too often do I see people doubt themselves, change their processes to suit what others dictate and then end up not quite where they want or should be.

P.S. I do a little facepalm (sometimes in my head) when I see/hear 'oh I don't like spurs'. Oh ok then, you just carry on pointlessly waggling that great big whip and nagging the horse then... You mean you don't like spurs used incorrectly. Sure. Horses don't like spurs used incorrectly either.
		
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Hmm ,not entirely sure you re not a professional even if you dont earn your living by horse bothering. Lot of common sense in this post .


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## JustMe22 (14 July 2017)

Not only from a schooling perspective in the traditional sense, but I find that as of late, every single time a horse does anything "naughty" that more and more people jump straight to the 'horses never ever do anything naughty on purpose' thing and that they must definitely be in pain or completely confused.

I'm not convinced. In that case why do some horses require very experienced riders in order to not be bucked off? Surely not all 'not a novice ride' horses are in pain, some of them just question things or react far more obviously than other horses.

Almost every professional I've spoken to is completely unperturbed by a horse who might buck out of exuberance in between jumps (and yes, I do think that sometimes it is just that - exuberance), or a horse that questions things and may protest a bit when they're asked to start doing more advanced dressage work or put under more pressure than usual. The pros tend to just crack on and ignore it - but amateurs tend to investigate everything and worry about what might be wrong, whether it's because we're inadvertently blocking him through our slightly wayward left hand or whatever and tbh sometimes, all the horse needs is a bit of quiet but firm determination to get through a difficult patch. Whether that difficult patch is two minutes or two weeks.

But yes, in answer to the question. I think us amateurs do tend to overcomplicate things. I think a lot of it is due to a lack of certainty or belief in your own training systems and so on. You're likely not riding 12 horses per day, and you probably aren't riding at least one horse at almost every level of training at a given time either. 

So we run into issues that perhaps another horse hasn't presented before and we aren't sure how to handle. Or we go from an established 10yo to a young 4yo (or even vice versa) and now we aren't sure how to address their training. Perhaps you stagnate with a horse who already knows everything you were working on with a youngster, or you find that just taking a light outside contact and a squeeze of the leg doesn't get your green 4yo forward and round like you're used to - so you try a different approach, or you carry on wondering what to do without actually doing anything, whereas a pro would probably just stick with their progressive method of schooling that they KNOW will work if they are just patient and consistent. How do they know? Because they've seen it work time and time again with loads of different horses. 

Of course, the other thing is that if there is the occasional horse who really doesn't suit their schooling system, they can move along to a horse who does.


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## scats (15 July 2017)

A really interesting thread.  As amateurs, we probably panic more about things because, lets face it, we've invested a lot of time and money into one or two animals that we have probably fallen in love with, so we are more likely to try and fix an issue or find an underlying cause.  A pro would, if a horse was not going to do the job for whatever reason, move it on. 
I'm as guilty as anyone, I have a field ornament ISH, who has clearly been a self-harming idiot all his life (he'd had 6 homes in his first 7 years) and I have thrown that much money at him in an attempt to fix or sort his various issues over the last 6 years.  I dread to think how much he has cost me.  It hasn't got me anywhere, he's now living out, albeit happy as Larry, with navicular, kissing spines and some other weird and wonderful ailments.  I bought him to event, but was willing to change my plans to fit whatever he could manage.

I often think back to the 80s and even early 90s and how different things were.  Only one or two horses on our yard of over 80 horses, had a physio.  Something that bucked excessively might have the back man look at it, but in absence of anything obvious found, a gutsy rider was usually just made to ride it until it stopped or the owner got used to sitting them.   I don't think anything was diagnosed with kissing spines.  A grumpy horse who hated being girthed was growled at, ulcers just weren't considered.

On the subject of flash nosebands, a shocking amount of affordable bridles come with them attached, so I do wonder whether more novicey people or first time owners just leave them on because they think it's all just part of the everyday kit.

I had a cracking JA pony as a teenager, but she did not stand to be mounted.  If anyone held her she went up and over backwards, and had done with previous owners, so I learnt to leap on on the move.  She did not stand at Road junctions either, you had 7 seconds before she was on her back legs.  So I simply just became clever at slowing her walk and timing it so we hit junctions at the right time.  We often ended up rearing at passing cars, but I found it oddly hilarious (I'm not sure I'd have quite the same outlook today!)
I could forgive all this, however, because she was an absolute machine in the ring and won everything.
I'm not sure that that type of behaviour would be acceptable today really, or people would be looking for a reason for it.


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## amandaco2 (17 July 2017)

AlexHyde said:



			Ah yes it should only be done on the balance it is beneficial, I was taking the fun part out of it. 

Cross-training in my mind can take many forms and fast work/ galloping is actually more use for stamina building for Topaz than jumping, the jumping is great for suppleness over her back.

In my mind, the idea that a professional (or anyone really ) can say it's ok it broke doing the job it's 'suppose' to is probably what I object to, if a bit of variety might have meant it didn't break at all because it was using different muscle groups, placing strain on different areas (not the same tendons and ligaments all the time, like hocks in dressage horses) and maintaining a healthier hoof/leg/body function. 

I think that is what I find upsetting about some of the systems out there, never mind the horse might be overall healthier, I cannot do XYZ because it is a 'discipline-specific' horse and I cannot justify if it hurt itself doing it...

Different kettle of fish to managing a horse with specific physical (or mental ) issues where you then make the call on what is appropriate for that individual. 

Hope that makes sense ...

Stopping problems before they start, not sure on this as it's not something I've considered... Skylla was backed in a cavesson  and I do not use a martingale/ bungee/ side reins/ or really any other sort of thing. It may explain why she's taking longer to settle into a contact (though her build is what makes a longer/lower outline a struggle). Might ponder this some more as I have been debating a drop/flash to give her some extra stability...
		
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agree.
I think cross training is excellent for horses. even if you aren't bothered about the mental stimulation there are definite physical benefits.


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## Caol Ila (19 July 2017)

Great thread!

I cross train Gypsum, who's primary job is dressage, because she gets bored in the ring and if there is too much dressage, she gets quite behind the leg and lazy.  Mix the dressage with jumping and hacking, she is happy to do it.  In other words, she is the perfect amateur all-rounder but wasn't going to be any pro's competition horse. At least not for dressage.  She would have made someone who was less chickensh ** t than me a great eventer, because she is a machine at cross-country and showjumping, but that ship sailed when I bought her.  

My first horse thought dressage was the implement of the devil and all she wanted to do was trail ride and jump.  I gave up moving up the levels with her, but pushed the dressage issue enough because the strength training benefited her jumping and trail riding, extending her working life as she wasn't a conformational wonder.  

But yeah, people faff.  So much faff.  I faffed a lot when I first got the horses because I had all these behaviour issues and the horses weren't easy to ride and handle, especially Angie, the first horse (Gypsum less so because she came issue free, from a nice competent breeder and had a nice, competent first owner).  But there were people at the barn I was boarding at who showed up, tacked up their horses, and schooled or hacked them without any drama.  Meanwhile Angie was nippy, kicky, balky, and had decided she didn't need to stand still, ever, except when she didn't want to go somewhere.   I wanted to be those people, the ones who had friendly, compliant horses.  So I faffed with all the groundwork stuff, TTEAM, natural horsemanship, different equipment, vet checks, whatever, and it took a couple years but I did reach my goal of being able to show up at the barn, ride that horse without any hassle, and the horse was happy about it.  All those training systems (and the barn I was at) had something to offer, and the same underlying principles of developing a horse who is happy and comfortable with its job of carting a rider around and easy to handle on the ground.  

You make things complicated when you haven't had a zillion horses through your program and you don't know what works and what won't.  But that's okay.  What I think is less okay are the owners who faff and overcomplicate without any real sense of direction, or the inkling that with the right work, their horse *can* be easy to ride and handle.  They look at the ones who are and shrug it off: "Well, her owner is lucky she is such a nice, sweet horse."  As a result, they have an insecure, anxious, confused horse who stays that way.  The chronic faffers.  The horse plays up a lot and the owner writes it off as "cheeky."  While I think horses can do "cheeky" things, most of the behaviour I see described as such looks like anxiety and confusion.  

A lot of pro horses might not live ideal lives in terms of turnout or company, but most of the ones I've come across look reasonably content when ridden.   The ammie horse might enjoy life more when they're not dealing with humans because they're out in a field for 23 hours a day with their mates, but often their interactions with humans seem stressed.  A pro rider (lets say the kind, ethical ones for the sake of argument, and not the ones soring Tennessee Walking horses and the like) provides clear direction and training, so the horse can confidently do his job.  Horses prefer that.  Horses don't like waffle.  Obviously lots of ammies are very capable and can provide effective training as well, but lots aren't. 

Hardest thing in the world to explain to people.  When I was doing freelance training, the most challenging part of it was explaining that there was no magic horse training wand I could wield that would make their animal into an easy beginner ride.  Sure, I said, I could ride the horse myself without any major fuss, but for the owner to achieve that, they had to reflect and work on how they interacted with it every single time they went into field.  That sounded like hard work.  They just wanted me to fix it.  

So yes, ammies faff more than pros because we have to, but if the faff improves you and your horse, that's a good thing.  If you faff but remain stationary with the same problems you had years ago, then you perhaps should consider how you're faffing.


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## frankster (20 July 2017)

This is horsemanship surely?


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