# What's peoples beef with Ceasar Millian?



## vieshot (10 September 2012)

What is it about his training people don't agree with? Someone commented on a post of a Facebook forum stating 'an owner that isn't a fan of CM is the best start any dog can have' 

I was quite taken aback. I quite like Ceasar and rate him in extreme cases. Don't think that makes me a bad dog owner :-/

So what is it about Ceasar people don't like?


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## vieshot (10 September 2012)

Millan!!


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## padderpaws (10 September 2012)

His training is nothing special and he does use spike collars which are regularly used in the USA.  There are some brilliant dog trainers in the UK ( John Rogerson) for one who never ever need to resort to shock, spike equipment to get a dog ( even a problem one ) trained.  

Ceasar Millian is a very good business man who can promote his stuff world wide to make him very rich.  (remind you of anyone horsey???


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## 111ex111 (10 September 2012)

I dont know much about his techniques but my mum loves watching his tv programme and when I have watched it with her I didnt see anything wrong! also she dragged me along to see him at wembley arena (most random thing ever) but I did enjoy it and was very interesting


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## Alec Swan (10 September 2012)

There will always be those,  who having limited abilities,  will criticise those who are skilled.  It's the way of the world,  I'm sorry to tell you.  

Millan is a highly experienced and competent dog trainer,  and there are many who've benefited from his thoughts.

Alec.


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## CorvusCorax (10 September 2012)

I saw the stage show too and loved it 

I like his basic approach, exercise, discipline, affection, showing us the way people meet and interact with dogs, the way people put pressure on dogs when they are not even realising it.
I have done, still do and will do in future, use a pinch collar and I presume anyone who disagrees with that, will not be using a pelham, spurs or whip on their horse. I see it as a refining aid, not a permanent fixture.

Not a big fan of things like scruffing and pinning and rolling, do that on the wrong dog and you'll end up with your face missing - of course there is the 'don't try this at home' disclaimer but you can't account for idiots.

It's like anything, use the techniques that suit your dog, I like parts of Cesar Milan's training, I like bits of Jane Donaldson's training.
Dog training doesn't have to be ONLY pink and fluffy or ONLY yank and crank, there is a lot of middle ground and no system will fit every single dog on this planet.

His detractors always point to that video where he hangs the husky/wolf thing that repeatedly comes up the line at him and tries to bite his arm. I have asked on here several times what people would do if a dog of that size was coming up the line at them, and they never really give me an answer. I know I would rather cut off a dog's air supply momentarily, and keep doing it until the dog calms down, than have it hanging off my arm.


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## CAYLA (10 September 2012)

Alec Swan said:



			There will always be those,  who having limited abilities,  will criticise those who are skilled.  It's the way of the world,  I'm sorry to tell you.  

Millan is a highly experienced and competent dog trainer,  and there are many who've benefited from his thoughts.

Alec.
		
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^^^^ This.
I find in general the comments come from your average 1 dog household(usually a fluffy breed) who have never experienced much more than a recall issue or a dog that pulls
They are not people who have ever dealt with the heighened levels of aggression or breeds he has nor do they know anybody that has! it's your usual key board warriers who will advise people on their "limited experience" what not to do! or what is horribly cruel, but never offer any constructive advice (because they dont know where to start basicaly" nor do they have to worry about the dogs behaviour getting out of control as they are not the ones dealing with it nor do they have to deal with  the fall out when the self and same dog is put to sleep/handed to rescue or sold on.
I have seen so many ownrs of puppies aswell as adult dog with severe behavioural issues (alot more) recently being told some out right ridiculous things on how to deal with certain behaviours and that firmness is not needed anymore in the dog world just love and treats and imo honest opinion we are heading towards more behavioural issues than we have ever seen before.
I am not saying I agree with all Cesar does and he rarely deal in he very basics of behaviour such as pulling or recall or house training which is not his fortee imo (tha would be Victoria Stillwells job) she deals with the very basics of training never aything taxing, but what we lack and need most ni regard to dog ownership most is common sense ( most dog owners seems to lack that these days)
Sure when the camera goes the dog may well lapse, thats because the moronic/ignorant owner is also in the equation and they remain behind with he dog
I have said it again like I have before and i am also seeing more of people being turned away from positive training classes because all methods failed and the owner and dog are now left in limbo. 

I am also seeing people would rather part with a dog or put it to sleep than adapt to a firmer way of handling where positive methods have failed (this baffles me the most)
I think we will also find it's ignorance and the reluctance to use a variety of training and adapt and take knowledge of the more experienced on board that is setting puppys/dog owners up for fail and random forums (not this one) dishing out frankly hideous advice.

For all the who har, it would be good if we could see a comparison tv show where we can see all these "others" trainers dealing with the same dogs/issues and see there methods then maybe we could learn somemore
I also think to many people are setting up as so called trainers/franchises and dishing out frankly dangerous and laughable info getting their cash and running.
Guess that was my rant.

Just to add I don't agree with all of CM's methods but have nothing bad/murderous to say about the fella, I can and do enjoy watching some of the programmes and have bee to see him


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## CorvusCorax (10 September 2012)

CAYLA said:



			I  am also seeing more of people being turned away from positive training classes because all methods failed and the owner and dog are now left in limbo. 

I am also seeing people would rather part with a dog or put it to sleep than adapt to a firmer way of handling where positive methods have failed (this baffles me the most)

I also think to apeople are setting up as so called trainers/franchises and dishing out frankly dangerous and laughable info.
Guess that was my rant.

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Quoted for truth!!!


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## cremedemonthe (10 September 2012)

Very good posts CaveCanem, Alec and Cayla and I wholeheartedly agree with all of what you have said,I've used his techniques and the ones I used worked.I haven't been to see him but would like to although I do read his books


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## blackcob (10 September 2012)

My beef is that it's quite easy to watch a few of his programs and to try out the techniques therein without actually having any understanding of dog behaviour, body language, pressure/release etc. and at best getting nowhere and looking a bit foolish and at worst trying to roll/pin the wrong dog and being badly hurt as a result.

Reference my OH, who likes to make a 'pssh!' noise á la Cesar and would be rolling them if I wouldn't clout him round the head for it - who gets absolutely no reaction, attention or respect from either dog. I who actually spend time training with the dogs don't need a pssh or a poke or often anything at all other than a stern eyebrow.


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## padderpaws (10 September 2012)

Ceaser Milan can train dogs.  No doubt about it but the methods he uses are nothing special that you won't see used in any good training club anywhere.  He did not invent the methods he uses. He is just very very good at marketing himself.  

I will stand up and say that spike collars are absolutely not needed to train any dog neither is the electric shock.  Also nor is the overly used treat system that so many trainers teach badly to so many dog owners. 

I do not know what "fluffy bunny" dog training is so can't comment.

Maybe he can use a spike collar effectively was he using one at Wembly? But the majority of people could not.


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## CAYLA (10 September 2012)

CaveCanem said:



			Quoted for truth!!!
		
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Honour and glory

Sorry...that illl be the smarties


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## Cinnamontoast (10 September 2012)

I like his teeth. They're very white and I like the way he grits them to enunciate carefully. I adore his accent. All respect to him for doing what he's done. I think his methods work and he has really helped some dogs/owners. I don't believe he's anything like the American horse trainer who strikes me as plain idiotic, frankly. 

I wish he'd come and help us with Zak or take him to his compound. 

We restarted Jake and Brig à la Cesar Milan when they hit the terrible twos. We used the pshh noise. It worked. A stamped foot now has Brig circling back to heel. He's an easy dog, as is Bear, so the methods work.

I wouldn't use a prong or shock collar, I'm not trained and I thinkid make a mess of it. The other dog forum I'm on is very fluffy and they go crazy angry about CM.


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## CAYLA (10 September 2012)

blackcob said:



			My beef is that it's quite easy to watch a few of his programs and to try out the techniques therein without actually having any understanding of dog behaviour, body language, pressure/release etc. and at best getting nowhere and looking a bit foolish and at worst trying to roll/pin the wrong dog and being badly hurt as a result.

Reference my OH, who likes to make a 'pssh!' noise á la Cesar and would be rolling them if I wouldn't clout him round the head for it - who gets absolutely no reaction, attention or respect from either dog. I who actually spend time training with the dogs don't need a pssh or a poke or often anything at all other than a stern eyebrow. 

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Lol...indeed, I would not roll/scruff or used anything prolonged, a reprimand should be short sharp and over within a mili second not a grapple. I do think men like that rolling stuff though, my OH likes to lay them flat, he does not force I may add and does stroke and get them to relax whilst other dogs sniff around said dog on floor (not my style) at all but each to their own and he gets good results. 
And the pshhhh/shhh thing does make me chuckle esp when folk think that alone solves all issues, indeed as I mentioned thats where folk lack common sense.
My vocals are what my dogs listen to and at one time it may well have been coupled with a check. However I dont have to go through life constantly checking them a "hey" does the job, they learn and earn respect in equal measures.


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## CAYLA (10 September 2012)

padderpaws said:



			Ceaser Milan can train dogs.  No doubt about it but the methods he uses are nothing special that you won't see used in any good training club anywhere.  He did not invent the methods he uses. He is just very very good at marketing himself.  

I will stand up and say that spike collars are absolutely not needed to train any dog neither is the electric shock.  Also nor is the overly used treat system that so many trainers teach badly to so many dog owners. 

I do not know what "fluffy bunny" dog training is so can't comment.

Maybe he can use a spike collar effectively was he using one at Wembly? But the majority of people could not.
		
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I agree with some of your points, his firm stance on training is not new and some very old school (where funnily enough we never saw the behavioural isues we see now) as common sense prevailed some time in he past, dogs are more 4 legged childre now han actual dogs!.
Alot of he CM haters loved him when he first came about but we then spiraledinto fluffidom and he became the sporn of satin
He did not invent methods he just brought them to tv...indeed
I am/can be firm and I never learnt from CM (Im alot younger that he) I learnt alot from my mam who is a bit older than he is and alot more learned along the way with the mass variery of issues I began to deal with.

No doubt those good classes are out here and teach variety, but in their minority! as they have been taken over by the classes I mentioned. 

I don't use a prong collar or electric collar but have nothing against them and understand the need for there use.


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## RutlandH2O (10 September 2012)

CaveCanem said:



			I saw the stage show too and loved it 

I like his basic approach, exercise, discipline, affection, showing us the way people meet and interact with dogs, the way people put pressure on dogs when they are not even realising it.
I have done, still do and will do in future, use a pinch collar and I presume anyone who disagrees with that, will not be using a pelham, spurs or whip on their horse. I see it as a refining aid, not a permanent fixture.

Not a big fan of things like scruffing and pinning and rolling, do that on the wrong dog and you'll end up with your face missing - of course there is the 'don't try this at home' disclaimer but you can't account for idiots.

It's like anything, use the techniques that suit your dog, I like parts of Cesar Milan's training, I like bits of Jane Donaldson's training.
Dog training doesn't have to be ONLY pink and fluffy or ONLY yank and crank, there is a lot of middle ground and no system will fit every single dog on this planet.

His detractors always point to that video where he hangs the husky/wolf thing that repeatedly comes up the line at him and tries to bite his arm. I have asked on here several times what people would do if a dog of that size was coming up the line at them, and they never really give me an answer. I know I would rather cut off a dog's air supply momentarily, and keep doing it until the dog calms down, than have it hanging off my arm.
		
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^^^This. Words of common sense and wisdom, as usual.


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## 111ex111 (11 September 2012)

My nan used a shock collar on her german shepherd who was crazy. They tried everything first and it was a last result. They put it on him, when he saw a dog and went ballistic, they shocked him once. Not going to lie he did whimper a bit however, since then they have never had to do it again, they put the collar on him and sometimes have to use the 'beep' setting on the collar, but he behaves so much better, ok sometimes he goes a bit crazy but nothing like before. My nan is very experienced with German shepherds- owned them all her life. and she did not just see CM do it then think "oh im going to try that". 

In my opinion if you have 2 options- use something like an electric collar on your crazy, mad, 'want to kill everything' dog which works, or send him to a rescue/have him put down/ keep him and risk him hurting another person/dog, IMO I would chose the electric collar every time


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## s4sugar (11 September 2012)

CAYLA said:



			^^^^ This.
I find in general the comments come from your average 1 dog household(usually a fluffy breed) who have never experienced much more than a recall issue or a dog that pulls
They are not people who have ever dealt with the heighened levels of aggression or breeds he has nor do they know anybody that has! it's your usual key board warriers who will advise people on their "limited experience" what not to do! or what is horribly cruel, but never offer any constructive advice (because they dont know where to start basicaly" nor do they have to worry about the dogs behaviour getting out of control as they are not the ones dealing with it nor do they have to deal with  the fall out when the self and same dog is put to sleep/handed to rescue or sold on.
I have seen so many ownrs of puppies aswell as adult dog with severe behavioural issues (alot more) recently being told some out right ridiculous things on how to deal with certain behaviours and that firmness is not needed anymore in the dog world just love and treats and imo honest opinion we are heading towards more behavioural issues than we have ever seen before.
I am not saying I agree with all Cesar does and he rarely deal in he very basics of behaviour such as pulling or recall or house training which is not his fortee imo (tha would be Victoria Stillwells job) she deals with the very basics of training never aything taxing, but what we lack and need most ni regard to dog ownership most is common sense ( most dog owners seems to lack that these days)
Sure when the camera goes the dog may well lapse, thats because the moronic/ignorant owner is also in the equation and they remain behind with he dog
I have said it again like I have before and i am also seeing more of people being turned away from positive training classes because all methods failed and the owner and dog are now left in limbo. 

I am also seeing people would rather part with a dog or put it to sleep than adapt to a firmer way of handling where positive methods have failed (this baffles me the most)
I think we will also find it's ignorance and the reluctance to use a variety of training and adapt and take knowledge of the more experienced on board that is setting puppys/dog owners up for fail and random forums (not this one) dishing out frankly hideous advice.

For all the who har, it would be good if we could see a comparison tv show where we can see all these "others" trainers dealing with the same dogs/issues and see there methods then maybe we could learn somemore
I also think to many people are setting up as so called trainers/franchises and dishing out frankly dangerous and laughable info getting their cash and running.
Guess that was my rant.

Just to add I don't agree with all of CM's methods but have nothing bad/murderous to say about the fella, I can and do enjoy watching some of the programmes and have bee to see him

Click to expand...

 Absolutely agree & well worth quoting again.


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## MurphysMinder (11 September 2012)

On phone do can't quote but some excellent replies from the usual suspects. I am currently attending a "fluffy" class with Freya as the usual one I go to doesn't run through summer hols. Some of the methods used make me cringe and I can honestly say some of the pups have got worse . For eg there is a weim pup who barks at every other dog when it is sitting waiting for its turn. Trainers solution - when he starts barking she gives him a stuffed kong, reward bad behaviour or what !


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## BBH (11 September 2012)

I really like his shows and if he's the Monty Roberts of the canine world so be it.

I was reading an article by him at the weekend and he was saying that having camera crews on site is a very expensive business and he's under pressure to deliver results quickly. He said he'll get to a case and think now how am I going to get a quick result with this one when really left to his own devices it would take a lot longer.

He came across as a genuine guy tbh.


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## Kaylum (11 September 2012)

hollieeb said:



			My nan used a shock collar on her german shepherd who was crazy. They tried everything first and it was a last result. They put it on him, when he saw a dog and went ballistic, they shocked him once. Not going to lie he did whimper a bit however, since then they have never had to do it again, they put the collar on him and sometimes have to use the 'beep' setting on the collar, but he behaves so much better, ok sometimes he goes a bit crazy but nothing like before. My nan is very experienced with German shepherds- owned them all her life. and she did not just see CM do it then think "oh im going to try that". 

In my opinion if you have 2 options- use something like an electric collar on your crazy, mad, 'want to kill everything' dog which works, or send him to a rescue/have him put down/ keep him and risk him hurting another person/dog, IMO I would chose the electric collar every time 

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Agree just like when people use a chiffney on a horse, a horse at our yard was extremely high spirited when leading, he has on full livery and would bugger off in his head collar, so we used a chiffney to lead him, as soon as that was in his mouth he was like a lamb. 

Cm I haven't watched for years tobehonest. 

Victoria S trains the owners as her owners that are on her shows have humanised their dogs expecting and wanting human behaviour from the dogs  most of the time.  She is good I like her.


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## MerrySherryRider (11 September 2012)

I don't understand people's criticism of him either, other than to debate the pro's and con's of trying to train a dog in TV time.
 Only time I saw him use an electric shock collar was for a dog that had been going for rattle snakes. Ceasar explained that using the collar was not an option he took lightly, but one that was necessary to stop the dog getting killed. Fair enough.


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## blackcob (11 September 2012)

Forgot to say in my last post that it's easy to get hung up on one particular trainer or one sole method and end up not seeing the wood for the trees. It's okay to pick and choose which bits work for you. 

For example (until recently, bloody thing has been cancelled due to staff politics ) all the training classes we went to used 'fluffy' reward-based methods for everything, from agility to dog reactivity ishoos - it was a Victoria Stilwell accredited franchise type thing. Works perfectly well long term for both my dogs. 

The trainer would be horrified to learn that I have, and would again, use physical, aversive measures on either dog if they show the slightest interest in livestock. It is something I will not tolerate and could mean the difference between life or death should they ever get loose. There's not a treat or a squeaky toy in the world that is more rewarding than chasing a sheep so a good dose of fear will have to do.


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## CorvusCorax (11 September 2012)

We can go into operant and classical conditioning and positive reinforcement and negative reinforcement and aversion and shaping behaviour blah blah blah, but there are lots of different dogs out there just as there are lots of different people, rewarding the good and ignoring the bad doesn't mean jack to a dog which self-rewards, allowing some dogs to choose behaviours and not give them any clarity at all/no consequences for certain behaviours, messes their heads up.

Rutland, thanks, but as you may tell from my above rant, I am the poster child for 'tried that, whoops, didn't work, start again, new ball please!'


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## TrasaM (11 September 2012)

BBH said:



			I really like his shows and if he's the Monty Roberts of the canine world so be it.

I was reading an article by him at the weekend and he was saying that having camera crews on site is a very expensive business and he's under pressure to deliver results quickly. He said he'll get to a case and think now how am I going to get a quick result with this one when really left to his own devices it would take a lot longer.

He came across as a genuine guy tbh.
		
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I'm with you. I think he's amazing with dogs and I really can't comprehend how anyone could be critical. How is it relevant " CM didn't invent this argument" CM has taken the time to understand dog and human behaviours and Shock Horror earns a living by taking his practice to the dog owning public. The cheek of him!  The electric collars he used he demonstrates by having the owner hold it to show that it does not hurt and only in extreme cases has he used the pronged collar.   There are no problem dogs just problem owners who forget that a dog is..surprise surprise! A Dog.


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## PolarSkye (11 September 2012)

CaveCanem said:



			We can go into operant and classical conditioning and positive reinforcement and negative reinforcement and aversion and shaping behaviour blah blah blah, but there are lots of different dogs out there just as there are lots of different people, rewarding the good and ignoring the bad doesn't mean jack to a dog which self-rewards, allowing some dogs to choose behaviours and not give them any clarity at all/no consequences for certain behaviours, messes their heads up.
		
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This This This This This.

P


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## Dobiegirl (11 September 2012)

Like a lot of other people I pick and choose the methods that will work with my dogs.

CM has come in for a bit of lambasting in the past for his aversive methods but I would like to see the positive training brigade have a go with some of the dogs CM has to deal with.

I got kicked out of a training class when I turned up with Fred my previous rescue Dobe, he had come to me as he was aggressive with other dogs and had bitten his owner. I found an old school ex police dog trainer who also owned Dobes. When Fred reacted to another dog if checked he would come up the lead at you and would bite. We turned him around but it wasnt using a clicker and a piece of cheese or chicken. The methods were not pretty and certainly gave him something else to focus on but it turned him around and he ending up being my dog of a lifetime. He was always wired and keen but was one hell of a dog.


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## Alec Swan (11 September 2012)

I read,  then read and then re-read this thread,  with continuing and growing interest.  I'm impressed,  there are some Dog Men (Girls ) amongst you.  It's hardly my place to approve,  I realise,  but I do none-the-less! 

Alec.


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## amy_b (11 September 2012)

My dog was very dog aggresive and I did use the pinning thing to an extent,along with letting the strange dog sniff him whilst laying down. Im not a behaviourist but I like to think I understand dogs pretty well and this was the turning point in his behaviour. That said, (the hypocrite that I am!!) I can 100% understand how badly it could go wrong in the wrong hands!!

now, what do we _like _about Cesar..?! I'l Start!!
1)his accent
2)he's so smart
3)his charisma
4)his looks (this would be higher, but Im only 24...)
5)his beautiful smile/teeth...
and you say his show is about dogs??!!!


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## Dobiegirl (11 September 2012)

I would just like to clarify Amybs post a lot of people cant tell the difference between dog aggression and fear aggression(not including you in this Amyb.

If that procedure had been carried out on a fear aggressive dog it would have had the opposite affect and made the dog ten times worse.


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## Ibblebibble (11 September 2012)

amy_b said:



			now, what do we _like _about Cesar..?! I'l Start!!
1)his accent
2)he's so smart
3)his charisma
4)his looks (this would be higher, but Im only 24...)
5)his beautiful smile/teeth...
and you say his show is about dogs??!!! 

Click to expand...

is it just my imagination or have his teeth got whiter with every series?


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## amy_b (11 September 2012)

I want to add another...
I just LOVE IT when he does his dog impressions!!!! and stares people out!!!


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## Oberon (11 September 2012)

CaveCanem said:



			His detractors always point to that video where he hangs the husky/wolf thing that repeatedly comes up the line at him and tries to bite his arm. I have asked on here several times what people would do if a dog of that size was coming up the line at them, and they never really give me an answer. I know I would rather cut off a dog's air supply momentarily, and keep doing it until the dog calms down, than have it hanging off my arm.
		
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I have similar husky/wolf type thing and he is a lovely dog - but he has a problem with other dogs getting aggressive on the lead. He is much, much better as the only dog in the house and he is better to walk now that Xara has gone to the Bridge and he doesn't feel the need to defend her.

But I have been on the receiving end of him losing his temper and got between him and another dog. I have scars on my leg.

In the same position as CM - I wouldn't hesitate to resort to similar methods to maintain my own safety. They are big, althletic dogs with big teeth and even a 'love tap' does damage .

We're working on the issues, so it shouldn't come to that though .


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## TrasaM (11 September 2012)

amy_b said:



			My dog was very dog aggresive and I did use the pinning thing to an extent,along with letting the strange dog sniff him whilst laying down. Im not a behaviourist but I like to think I understand dogs pretty well and this was the turning point in his behaviour. That said, (the hypocrite that I am!!) I can 100% understand how badly it could go wrong in the wrong hands!!

now, what do we _like _about Cesar..?! I'l Start!!
1)his accent
2)he's so smart
3)his charisma
4)his looks (this would be higher, but Im only 24...)
5)his beautiful smile/teeth...
and you say his show is about dogs??!!! 

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 all those things and yes his teeth have got whiter. I might put looks a bit further up the scale though.  I love the episode where he works with Jillian from the Biggest Looser and gets on the horse behind her. Oh envy


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## Oberon (11 September 2012)

amy_b said:



			I want to add another...
I just LOVE IT when he does his dog impressions!!!! and stares people out!!! 

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[YOUTUBE]hShB6MhdqJE[/YOUTUBE]


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## EAST KENT (11 September 2012)

Alec Swan said:



			There will always be those,  who having limited abilities,  will criticise those who are skilled.  It's the way of the world,  I'm sorry to tell you.  

Millan is a highly experienced and competent dog trainer,  and there are many who've benefited from his thoughts.

Alec.
		
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Absabloodylutely! His methods plus a little bribery for thickheads like bull terriers can just work so well.I would love the critics to demo just how good they are..on tv of course.


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## Booboos (11 September 2012)

I have a bit of an aversion to the marketing circus that surrounds 'magic' animal trainers and the hype/money involved. I think the point about the fact that he is not doing anything new is that there is no reason to buy into the hype surrounding him. Yes, he does have a natural affinity with dogs, so do many other trainers. What he predominantly has though, like the Parellis, is a marketing machine propelling him to stardome.

My other concern is that it's one thing to be a gifted animal handler yourself and quite another to be able to train others. People will always misunderstand and misapply training techniques, but the potential for causing harm with aversive techniques is much greater than the potential for causing harm with positive reward techniques. The scruffing, pinning and rolling stuff can seriously get people bitten and set some dogs back in their training.

I would be much happier if people with challenging dogs got 1 to 1 help from experienced trainers without the need to get the whole thing televised and copied.


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## TrasaM (11 September 2012)

Oh boo hiss Booboos..this is how he earns his living so of course he has to have a marketing machine. And not all people misunderstand and misapply his methods. Most of the work he does anyhow is on the owners and getting them to understand the nature of their dog and to stop humanising it. The corrections he applies to dogs by making them submit is what another dog would do in the same situation. It's no use standing there waving a finger at it saying 'naughty doggy, don't do that!  The work he's done with timid or traumatised dogs is also really interesting so it's not all rolling and holding down to submit.


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## gemin1eye (11 September 2012)

What about "flooding" our dogs to help with their fears? Is that acceptable?


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## Dobiegirl (11 September 2012)

gemin1eye said:



			What about "flooding" our dogs to help with their fears? Is that acceptable?
		
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I wouldnt have done that with Darcy my female Dobe, flooding would have been far too much for her. She was fear aggressive and would sound off at any strange dog so I just worked on getting her focused on me and gradually got closer to the other dog. When I first started taking her to classes she was overwhelmed by all the strange dogs, we kept our distance and over a course of weeks she was happy to walk past them. This was in a village hall so quite closely confined. All the dogs were on leads and they were all types but all friendly. There was a Boxer she really had a problem with him but the owner and I worked outside before class and she would just tolerate him, they were never going to be best friends but as long as they were not touching she was accepting of him.


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## Alec Swan (11 September 2012)

gemin1eye said:



			What about "flooding" our dogs to help with their fears? Is that acceptable?
		
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Could you explain "Flooding" to me?  I ask because I don't know.

Alec.


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## Dobiegirl (11 September 2012)

Flooding as I see it is presenting a dog with an overload of its worse fears, for example Darcy my Dobe bitch was terrified of other dogs and she would display fear aggression. If I took her into a large group of dogs it would have been too much hence my getting her focused on me and walking by one strange dog, then upping the ante by adding more but I would not have increased this if she was stressed. Stressed dogs dont learn hence I dont agree with flooding with fear aggressive dogs.


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## TrasaM (11 September 2012)

Alec.. It's when he makes dogs face up to whatever terrifies them. Hence by exposure coupled with positive experience the dog realises the fear is unwarranted. Chucking a dog that's  scared of water into a pool for example. Didn't know it was called flooding or in the dog in water example do I mean drowning 
   Blimey! What kind of rotter would do that to a dog!


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## CAYLA (11 September 2012)

Depends on the issue really, I use flooding, and I get fantastic results.


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## Alec Swan (11 September 2012)

The two last posters,  thank you for that.  "Flooding"  was as I suspected,  and yes,  I too have done it.  Many years ago,  we would take greyhounds that couldn't cope,  down onto the London Undergrounds.  I found out that it took a degree of relationship,  bonding and empathy with the dog,  to make progress,  but yes,  it worked, _ mostly._

Flooding,  as it's been described,  and in my modest opinion,  is an excellent way of restoring or installing confidence, * BUT*,  and this is vital,  the upright bit on the end of the lead,  needs to have previously built up a relationship with the dog,  and a "Never mind darling,  mummy/daddy loves you" approach will only make matters worse.  

Thinking about it,  I suspect that the trick is to allow a dog to see it's companion (you or I) as support,  rather than being reliant upon them.  We need to encourage our charges to think for themselves.

Alec.


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## Booboos (12 September 2012)

Flooding is sustained exposure to the fear-evoking stimulus until fear subsides. There are a variety of approaches (as far as I understand it) from exposure to many, full-intensity objects of fear (take the dog to a place with a lot of other dogs and do nothing to prevent them from approaching), or gradual exposure of increasing intensity (take the dog to a place where only one dog is visible in the distance, gradually increase proximity and number of dogs). It can be accompanied by reward of desirable behaviour and I think there are debates over whether the feared object should approach the animal independently, or whether the animal should be allowed to approach the feared object (although I am not certain on the extent of the disagreement on this). 

I think that overall there is agreement that if the fear response remains at the end of the exposure period the animal will be worse off as a result. The exposure must continue until the fear is overcome.


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## winterwood (18 September 2012)

If he was as good a trainer as he thinks he should have read this dog a lot better

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ihXq_WwiWM


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## Jools1234 (18 September 2012)

winterwood said:



			If he was as good a trainer as he thinks he should have read this dog a lot better

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ihXq_WwiWM

Click to expand...

i work with horses (nowhere near as many horses as CM does dogs) and you know what occasionally i get caught out and i get knocked, pushed or pulled about, it happens and if it was not for CM that dog would be an ex-dog now but instead she is at his rehabilitation centre being worked with. i could not do that so my hat goes off to him


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## Katikins (19 September 2012)

Really interesting topic and some great replies.  As a CM fan I thought I'd weigh in with my two pennies worth.

I think the main reason that CM is the one trainer that is doing so well from his TV program is not so much the methods he uses as I'm sure there are a lot of trainers out there who are similar, its the fact that he is so personable and great at explaining things.  The way at the beginning of each episode he tries to get to know the owner so that he can explain things in a way that they understand and can relate to.  Also.... I have a bit of a celebrity crush on him and once had a rather 'interesting' dream about him!!

As for his methods, I am a massive fan of the exercise, discipline, affection system as well as being aware of the energy you are projecting as this makes a massive difference.  I also like how he explains dogs' body language so people are more aware of the 'early warning signs' rather than just reacting once the dog is already so wound up its completely oblivious to you.

We do use the pssht sound in our house and find that it works well (with the cat as well as the dog) and when we dog sit my friends dog it has really helped with the one that can be a little dominant.  We can recognise the dominant behaviour before be becomes a problem (tail and ears start to raise for example) and therefore nothing escalates.

As many have said before, I think his methods are a great thing to have in your 'training toolkit' but everything should be taken with a pinch of salt and every dog owner should realise that different dogs will react differently to different training methods.


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## lexiedhb (19 September 2012)

Katikins said:



			Really interesting topic and some great replies.  As a CM fan I thought I'd weigh in with my two pennies worth.

I think the main reason that CM is the one trainer that is doing so well from his TV program is not so much the methods he uses as I'm sure there are a lot of trainers out there who are similar, its the fact that he is so personable and great at explaining things.  The way at the beginning of each episode he tries to get to know the owner so that he can explain things in a way that they understand and can relate to.  Also.... I have a bit of a celebrity crush on him and once had a rather 'interesting' dream about him!!

As for his methods, I am a massive fan of the exercise, discipline, affection system as well as being aware of the energy you are projecting as this makes a massive difference.  I also like how he explains dogs' body language so people are more aware of the 'early warning signs' rather than just reacting once the dog is already so wound up its completely oblivious to you.

We do use the pssht sound in our house and find that it works well (with the cat as well as the dog) and when we dog sit my friends dog it has really helped with the one that can be a little dominant.  We can recognise the dominant behaviour before be becomes a problem (tail and ears start to raise for example) and therefore nothing escalates.

As many have said before, I think his methods are a great thing to have in your 'training toolkit' but everything should be taken with a pinch of salt and every dog owner should realise that different dogs will react differently to different training methods.
		
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The huge issue with your post is the use of the word DOMINANT- which is out dated clap trap proven scientifically to be nonsense.


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## Katikins (19 September 2012)

lexiedhb said:



			The huge issue with your post is the use of the word DOMINANT- which is out dated clap trap proven scientifically to be nonsense.
		
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OK, and breathe 

What else would you call it then?  I know I'm much less knowledgeable than most on here.


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## amy_b (19 September 2012)

lexiedhb said:



			The huge issue with your post is the use of the word DOMINANT- which is out dated clap trap *proven scientifically to be nonsense*.
		
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do you have a link to this?


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## TrasaM (19 September 2012)

Wow..have scientists proven that packs of dogs don't have a hierarchy? Mob rules eh?


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## CorvusCorax (19 September 2012)

It's true that lots of people think their dogs are dominant because they saw it on The Dog Whisperer.
Truly dominant dogs are rare and thankfully not usually in pet homes. Dogs are not sitting plotting ways to overthrow us and take over our homes. But some dogs do try and push their luck. 

I used to think my older dog was dominant, he was not, I forced him into a position he did not want to be in.
My younger dog would have the capacity to be dominant but I don't let him...if I give him a centimetre, he takes ten miles.


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## lexiedhb (19 September 2012)

amy_b said:



			do you have a link to this?
		
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http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/05/090521112711.htm
http://www.whole-dog-journal.com/issues/14_12/features/Alpha-Dogs_20416-1.html
http://www.veterinarybehaviorclinic.com/downloads/DominanceFinal.pdf
http://books.google.co.uk/books?hl=...#v=onepage&q=dominance theory in dogs&f=false

http://www.pawsoflife.org/Library/Behavior/Bradshaw_2009.pdf

In one of the conclusions it states "Moreover, when dogs are able express their social and
sexual behavior with minimal interference from man, there
is no evidence that they adopt a wolf-type social structure" which is what dominance based theories surround. There are a LOAD more just google scholar it.

I'm not claiming to be an expert but I do not want to dominate my dog- with alpha rolls etc etc...... be a leader to it yeah- show it right from wrong- yeah.


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## lexiedhb (19 September 2012)

TrasaM said:



			Wow..have scientists proven that packs of dogs don't have a hierarchy? Mob rules eh?
		
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No they have proven that the dominance based theories which came from WOLF packs have no bearing on how dogs interact.


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## Brightbay (19 September 2012)

This article sums up the current state of understanding with respect to dominance - which is a within and not between species behaviour  - and how this relates to training.

It's a position statement from the American Veterinary Society of Animal Behavior...
http://avsabonline.org/uploads/position_statements/dominance_statement.pdf

Remember that while Cesar Millan may have clear explanations for behaviour, his explanations may be personal to him and not agree with how the same behaviour is interpreted by someone who studies behaviour.  In Defence of Dogs by John Bradshaw is a good place to start reading about this, and he includes full references to the academic research if that's what people want.


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## lexiedhb (19 September 2012)

Brightbay your link won't work for me........


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## devonlass (19 September 2012)

Alec Swan said:



			There will always be those,  who having limited abilities,  will criticise those who are skilled.  It's the way of the world,  I'm sorry to tell you.  

Alec.
		
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This was my first thought when I read the opening post.

Some people just love to hate those who either do things better than them or show up their own flaws

I love watching CM,he's always so well 'turned out' apart from anything else,and he has the nicest teeth 

He's taken a talent and made it a tv success,fair play to the bloke.I suspect many dog owners have made some effort to take training and education of their dogs a bit more seriously after having watched his programmes,and that has to be a good thing.


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## Brightbay (19 September 2012)

lexiedhb said:



			Brightbay your link won't work for me........
		
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Weeeird, it works for me when I click on it!  Alternatively, just to the main webpage : www.avsabonline.org - and look for Resources, then click Position Statements on the drop down menu.


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## Polotash (20 September 2012)

I've never seen him, and I have no issue with people scruffing etc, BUT we (I volunteer/ foster for a rescue charity) have just had a dog returned when it's new owner decided to use CM techniques on him... the dog is a lurcher, so very wimpy, but bouncy, the new (male) owner wrestled it to the floor and the dog was so frightened it nipped him. 

Very sad and unecessary.


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## Alec Swan (20 September 2012)

When we consider CM,  I suspect that we often overlook the fact that all his telly programmes,  well all those that I've seen anyway,  seem to deal with dominance problems.  They rarely deal with the dogs which are anything other than aggressive.  There are many dogs (and owners!) who have other problems.

Alec.


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## CAYLA (21 September 2012)

CaveCanem said:



			It's true that lots of people think their dogs are dominant because they saw it on The Dog Whisperer.
Truly dominant dogs are rare and thankfully not usually in pet homes. Dogs are not sitting plotting ways to overthrow us and take over our homes. But some dogs do try and push their luck. 

I used to think my older dog was dominant, he was not, I forced him into a position he did not want to be in.
My younger dog would have the capacity to be dominant but I don't let him...if I give him a centimetre, he takes ten miles.
		
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^^^^^^^^This the word dominance gets brandied by those who label a behaviour they have little understanding of or interpretation to describe certain behaviours their/a dog displays alot, its a word used far to frequently in the dog world. esp aggression (of course it's not always dominace), infact in most cases its certainly nothing of the sort) 
However Dominance exists, even dealing with hundreds of dogs in a yearly period we rarely see it, but we certainly see it I can tell you that!


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## TrasaM (21 September 2012)

I believe that CM has pointed out the dogs showing aggressive behaviour with it's roots in anxiety are less predictable than dominant aggressive dogs. He's also been shown dealing with lots of other behaviour problems apart from aggressiveness. Even with the dominant type dogs he's dealt with he always points out that it's because the owner has not shown the correct leadership so the dog takes up the role. It's unfortunate that people don't seem to grasp this and take the time to understand canine behaviour properly. I grew up on a cattle farm and occasionally there would be a calf that we would make a pet of. They always grew up with no fear of humans and were unpredictable if not downright dangerous to handle because of this. I remember one in particular who loved having her head scratched and being fussed over which was fine until you tried to walk away. She would then get very threatening and if you were daft enough to ignore and walk away you would get head butted very hard. As CM says boundaries and rules are essential and affection at the correct time.


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## Alec Swan (21 September 2012)

A good post,  TrasaM.  

Alec.


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## krlyr (21 September 2012)

TrasaM said:



			It's unfortunate that people don't seem to grasp this and take the time to understand canine behaviour properly.
		
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Which is something I'd love to see CM do. The whole pack theory that he bases almost all of his views on has been proven wrong, it was a theory based on studies done many years ago, on captive wolves (so not really a true indication of their natural behaviour)

http://www.whole-dog-journal.com/issues/14_12/features/Alpha-Dogs_20416-1.html
http://www.thedogtrainingsecret.com/blog/alpha-pack-theories-disproven/

Cesar Millan is a self-taught 'expert' who bases all his methods on outdated theory, Ian Dunbar holds a veterinary degree, special honours in Physiology and Biochemistry and spent ten years researching the development of hierarchical social behaviour and aggression in domestic dogs. I know who's view I would respect more - and I believe Dunbar has spent time trying to re-educate Millan, got involved with his book to put a more positive-reinforcement based spin on it etc. but going by the previews of his latest shows, it seems like CM hasn't taken note.
http://www.dogstardaily.com/blogs/lets-just-be-humans-training-dogs


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## CorvusCorax (21 September 2012)

While I have a lot of respect for Mr Dunbar, Cesar Millan may not have letters after his name but he was raised with dogs and if you have ever seen him around dogs and the way dogs react around him, taking away any of the corrections or nasty training bits people don't like, you will see that he has that way with them. Some people have a natural affinity with dogs that cannot be taught or read up on in books. He is one of them.
Not active, reactive and high-energy, like me 

And can I just say once again positive reinforcement does not work for all dogs, my own included. There are some issues I don't believe you can afford to fanny about with.


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## TrasaM (21 September 2012)

krlyr said:



Cesar Millan is a self-taught 'expert' who bases all his methods on outdated theory, 

Self taught seems to imply just that..based on his experience handling dogs over many years. As dogs in the main remain constant I don't see how experience can become outdated. 

Ian Dunbar holds a veterinary degree, special honours in Physiology and Biochemistry and spent ten years researching the development of hierarchical social behaviour and aggression in domestic dogs. 

Exactly..he watched how dogs social behaviours developed. At what point did he intervene and try to correct or direct said behaviours. 

 but going by the previews of his latest shows, it seems like CM hasn't taken note.

Why would he change what he does when what he does is effective.
		
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## krlyr (21 September 2012)

I would say getting bitten by a dog with resource guarding because he ignored all the dog's warning signs in favour of "knowing better" isn't very effective. Kicking a tense, reactive dog so it redirects onto you and 'requires' hanging at the end of a lead isn't very effective either. 
He may get results, but with over the top, unnecessary methods that probably work more in the short-term than the long-term.

I would also say that someone with a natural affinity, or "a way" with dogs wouldn't need to resort to shock collars, prong collars, inventing their own collars, etc. too.


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## CorvusCorax (21 September 2012)

He's a dog trainer, not a piano player, I am sure he has been bitten a million times.

If you've been bitten, hard, you'll know that sometimes common sense goes out the window and you do lash out in pain, which isn't always the best response. Hey, even dogs do it.
Again, re the hanging, how would you have stopped the dog in question, the large husky x, coming at your arm? 

That big pack of dogs that follows him out running, offlead, if he was such a barbarian with them, shocking them and sticking prongs in their necks all the time, wouldn't they be buggering off over the countryside rather than following him?


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## Dobiegirl (21 September 2012)

I agree with CC and good post from TrasaM, I bet very few people have ever met let alone trained a really aggressive dog. Ive met 2 in my lifetime one of which I owned and was kicked out of training classes because of it by positive clicker based trainers. They offered no help or support I was just told to go and not come back. I found a ex police dog handler who owned Dobes and had no training qualifications. I bet he had forgotten more than some of these other trainers knew and he knew exactly how to deal with my dogs problem and with his help we were able to turn him around.

CMs mistakes are very public and very often he is a last resort for these dogs .


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## krlyr (21 September 2012)

It's not so much the way he deals with these attacks but that fact that he sets them up to happen in the first place. It's not necessary, he creates a situation where the dog is pushed beyond its threshold and feels its only option is to bite. Hundreds of trainers and behaviourists manage reactive dogs by learning their threshold and remaining on the other side of it. I've owned two reactive dogs of my own, one who would redirect onto me in her frustration/pain (she had quite bad hip dysplasia) so I avoided those situations as much as I could and carried a muzzle to use if we were completely cornered with no way out of a reactive situation. I wasn't even on any dog forums at the time, didn't really know about dog behaviourists and the like, but common sense says that if you play with fire, you're gonna get burned.


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## CorvusCorax (21 September 2012)

But the owners have an issue they needed fixing, or else why would he have been called in in the first place, by owners who probably didn't even know what and what they were doing wrong, and he has to fabricate an event to replicate the dog's behaviour to see how to deal with it.

Re playing with fire and getting burnt, yes, I am sure he felt like a bit of a berk for allowing himself to be bitten by the lab, but equally, I am sure he didn't cry himself to sleep over it.
Managed to get to my late 20s without being bitten (badly enough to break the skin), now I have been bitten a couple of times and I will probably get bitten again. Dogs have teeth.

Yes, of course you can avoid stressful situations, sometimes, but not always. If you can avoid the triggers, happy days, but that is not an option for everyone and sometimes you have to deal with the issue and sometimes that involves putting pressure on the dog. I can't personally go through life worrying that my dog's world might collapse if I put a bit of pressure on it or expect it to do something it might not particularly want to do.


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## Dobiegirl (21 September 2012)

I think you have failed to take into account some of the owners who are not too bright, its my belief that he repeatedly puts these dogs into this situation so he knows how safe the dog will be when handed back to the owners. He has to get the dog to display the behaviour in the first place as he cant spend 24 hours with it and hope it will manifest in that time. 

I too like you had a dog that would come up the lead and take a chunk out of you because he got so wound up, being a 40kg Dobe he could have done serious damage. The irony was he was protecting me and he could go from 0 to 100 reacting in a blick of an eye. I never used a muzzle and after his training he was 100% reliable and never displayed the behaviour again.


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## CAYLA (21 September 2012)

I never answer the other post as just got back from a break today and noted it but did not want to bring it back to the top unnecessarily for me to add what I can add here (a few questions), but as much as I disagree with the punishment of the food guarding (owners seem obsessivley hung up on food guarding) but I shall not go into that. 
I would like to have known (if anybody has the info) was he called solely for the food guarding? or was the dog aggressive in general, had other issues? bitten owner/anyone? does anybody know this?

I still also love and read with interest the behaviours of 1 or 2 pet dogs owned over a stretch of years compared with someone dealing with hundreds
Inc an elderly lady who said to me just the other day, I owned 2 dogs and never saw that behaviour in my life (in regard to a little dog displaying aggressive behaviour) 
Of course all trainers have varied methods, theirs/ones they mimicked/ learnt, and some just don't deal with certain behaviours and stick with the very basics and exclude anything taxing/difficult.

As CC suggests you do have to apply pressure and cover most eventualities to find out how a dog may react, we have to all the time in order to rehome.


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## CAYLA (21 September 2012)

TrasaM said:





krlyr said:



Cesar Millan is a self-taught 'expert' who bases all his methods on outdated theory, 

Self taught seems to imply just that..based on his experience handling dogs over many years. As dogs in the main remain constant I don't see how experience can become outdated. 

Ian Dunbar holds a veterinary degree, special honours in Physiology and Biochemistry and spent ten years researching the development of hierarchical social behaviour and aggression in domestic dogs. 

Exactly..he watched how dogs social behaviours developed. At what point did he intervene and try to correct or direct said behaviours. 

 but going by the previews of his latest shows, it seems like CM hasn't taken note.

Why would he change what he does when what he does is effective.
		
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Very good post^^^
		
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## lula (23 September 2012)

i always phone up the when the Ceasar Milan TV production programming unit come to the UK and offer myself up to be rolled and pinned down by him but strangely his PR people never return my calls


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## CorvusCorax (23 September 2012)

PMSL!!

I am sure they say:

"IT'S HER AGAIN!!!"


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## CAYLA (23 September 2012)

lula said:



			i always phone up the when the Ceasar Milan TV production programming unit come to the UK and offer myself up to be rolled and pinned down by him but strangely his PR people never return my calls 

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LMFAO


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## mulledwhine (23 September 2012)

Do not like his use of spike collars, however from what I have seen of him, I have no complaints, I also agree with his ' we cannot be leaders as we are not dogs , but can get resoect' soo true


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## Alec Swan (23 September 2012)

You girls should be ashamed of yourselves,  all of you!!

I have a great deal of time for the man,  but with the yellow Lab bitch clip,  he ***ked up,  properly.  That shouldn't alter the fact that he's generally,  as good as it gets.

Alec.


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## mulledwhine (23 September 2012)

Agreed


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## padderpaws (23 September 2012)

I am not posting to have an argument.  I really don't want that. Nor am I dissing CM.  But there really are other methods and other ways of dealing with all training/ behaviour problems.  Just because you have not witnessed them does not mean they are not out there.  I mention again a fantastic trainer/behaviouist called John Rogerson who I know could show you several different methods of dealing with food aggression and any other training problem that would not get the owner seriously bitten. A good trainer has to be able to show the owner how to deal with the problem without getting the public or the dog hurt or injured. 

That clip of him with the yellow lab was not good. even if the dog had not bitten him there are not very many people who could emulate what he did and not get   hurt. 

And for the record my beef with CM came when I was watching him on tv teaching a non aggressive pet dog to walk nicely on the lead using a spike collar.  That is a simple walking to heal excersise.  Was a few years ago mind.


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## Dobiegirl (23 September 2012)

Padderpaws no one is saying he is the next messiah but he is not the devil incarnate either.


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## CAYLA (23 September 2012)

Alec Swan said:



			You girls should be ashamed of yourselves,  all of you!!

I have a great deal of time for the man,  but with the yellow Lab bitch clip,  he ***ked up,  properly.  That shouldn't alter the fact that he's generally,  as good as it gets.

Alec.
		
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I agree ^^^^ he did make mistakes in that clip, but in general I still have no issues with his methods.
I still would have been interested in why/if if was just food aggression he visited the home or was their other signs of aggression too?

I don't fancy the fella mind you, don't you include me with them cesar hussies
Them white teeth do nowt for me


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## padderpaws (23 September 2012)

Did'nt think I did imply he was the devil incarnate.  Absolutely not. Just incompetent sometimes.


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## CAYLA (23 September 2012)

Dobiegirl said:



			Padderpaws no one is saying he is the next messiah but he is not the devil incarnate either.
		
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^^^What DG said, and I have indeed seen him tackle food aggression without using the method he did on the lab. I am still wondering if the dog had any other issues other than the food aggression (that he was called out for in the first instance).


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## meandmyself (24 September 2012)

Can someone direct me to the Husky vid?


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## krlyr (24 September 2012)

Shadow?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qh9YOyM2TAk

Yet again, a dog he knows has issues (as Shadow directs his behaviour onto CM a few times before the main incident) that he pushes into reacting (watch for his sly kick to the dog to cause the reaction) despite the dog giving plenty of readable body language.


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## YasandCrystal (24 September 2012)

tbh I think anyone who puts themselves 'out there' as a 'fixer' whether it be dogs or horses or people is open for criticism. You are never going to please or impress all of the people all of the time, even if you always get it right. As humans of course they get things wrong and I think the verocity with which their critics pounce (thinking of the Parelli's and CM here) only goes to show actually just how good and popular with the masses these people are and how much jealousy they spark. Of course there are as good if not better trainers out there, as there are no doubt 000's of brilliant bedroom musicians, but the ones in the media got the break.
I think the best the likes of CM can hope for is to please many people much of the time and I believe he achieves that. He's far too short for me to fancy, but I like his manner.

I think any of these 'in the media' fixers do bring good news for trainers everywhere as they bring an awareness to people of what is achievable and of the consistency and dedication needed in successful dog and horse training.


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## Luci07 (24 September 2012)

I do like him. I think his basic pointers of exercise are excellent.  I also appreciate he has a show and while he does always say certain procedures should only be carried out by a profissionial I also know people wil ignore his and try to take short cuts. massive fan of Victoria Stilwell now after seeing how she so tried to help Lennox and became so involved....


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## krlyr (24 September 2012)

Why does disliking someone have to stem from jealous? I could treat my dogs in the same manner as CM if I wanted to, no need for any jealousy, I just don't like the methods or what they do to the dogs.


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## CorvusCorax (24 September 2012)

I had the old prong collar debate with a horsey person again yesterday. Someone who has no issue popping a pelham in a strong horse and bringing the bottom rein into play when they need it rather than sawing away with a snaffle whilst congratulating themselves on using a 'mild' bit.

Re Shadow (again) the dog clearly came up the lead at the owners when it was asked to do something it didn't want to do, that was the issue and that is why they called Cesar and Cesar had to fabricate a situation to make it happen...again HOW would other posters have dealt with this? 
It's kind of hard to 'ignore' bad behaviour and praise good behaviour when a dog is hanging off your arm.

So you have a dog that has learned, when I don't want to do something or I am limited from doing something, I bite my handler. Do you just let that issue slide and pretend it doesn't exist and wait until real damage is done and the dog must be PTS or do you try and fix it, however un-pretty it may look?


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## YasandCrystal (24 September 2012)

krlyr said:



			Why does disliking someone have to stem from jealous? I could treat my dogs in the same manner as CM if I wanted to, no need for any jealousy, I just don't like the methods or what they do to the dogs.
		
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When I refer to people being jealous I mean other trainers not Joe Public. People are quick to jump on mistakes made by these high profile trainers as though they should never falter and I think its a shame because they have some very sound methods in their repertoire that would be hard to contest.


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## CorvusCorax (24 September 2012)

Thinking overtime - is there a mindset out there that if something cannot be fixed with positive-only methods, then fixing it should not even be attempted? And the 'issue' avoided entirely and the dog never put into a situation where it may react...what happens then if that situation, one day, for whatever reason, cannot be avoided?

Do positive-only trainers only work with dogs that they know their methods will work on to the exclusion of other dogs, to the detriment of the dog and to the detriment of their owners? 

If solving the issue may involve some stress to the dog in the short term, is it better not to solve it at all? Even if the issue is causing stress to the dog in the long term?

If a dog has 'issues' do we just ignore the issue, if it is dangerous to the dog itself and to others, especially if it is an issue that has to be 'corrected' rather than solved with love and biscuits?

If a 'rescue' dog or a dog that has previously been abused behaves in a manner that is dangerous to itself or others, do we ignore that completely as well? 

A lot of dogs have 'issues' a lot of people have 'issues' too, does it make us special, no, do we ignore it, no, we just have to work through and tackle the issues in a number of different ways.

Just musings.


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## krlyr (24 September 2012)

How do you know what issues can and cannot be resolved with positive-based methods? Btw, positive reinforcement is not really "positive only" because, yes, you have some negative aspects - e.g. ignoring a dog that jumps up is a negative reaction to the situation because you are withdrawing your attention, I do not believe that training should _only_ be positive but I do not see the need for training with fear, pain or discomfort. You seem to have the impression that anything other than CM type methods purely involve ignoring bad behaviours. 

With Shadow, I wouldn't ignore the bad behaviour - I wouldn't put him in that position to begin with! This doesn't mean you avoid dogs and avoid tackling the issue, it means you identify how close he can manage to go and remain comfortable. If it means you only go 200 yards near the dog at first, then stay 200 yards away. You might then progress to 190 yards, 180 yards, 170 yards, 150 yards. The idea is you keep the dog in a positive state of mind and reward it for not reacting, rather than push it over its threshold, make it react and then punish that behaviour. 
The BAT method is becoming more and more popular over here - the idea is that you reward the dog for alternative behaviour by giving it a functional reward. So a dog that is afraid of other dogs, if you get him to just before his threshold, wait for him to clock the dog but then look away, or sniff the ground, or other kinds of appeasement signals instead of the reaction or other unwanted behaviours, you then reward it by walking away, the reward being the distance that the dog wants. You're not just teaching the dog to not react, but to use much more appropriate behaviour and changing their mindset too. Do you really think that strangling a dog will teach it to relax around other dogs?


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## Dobiegirl (24 September 2012)

I think you are dead right CC, having been kicked out of my previous clicker(see my previous post) class its obvious those trainers are not  equipped to deal with serious aggressive issues. If I hadnt found that ex police dog handler I would have been dealing with it on my own and I suspect thats what happens to a lot of owners.

As you say people criticise but not one person has said how a positive(clicker) trainer would deal with it, Im not being sarky here I would really like to know.


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## Dobiegirl (24 September 2012)

Krlyr my dog the minute he turned the corner and spotted another dog reacted immediately, if it was in the distance he would react immediately.


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## CorvusCorax (24 September 2012)

krlyr said:



			How do you know what issues can and cannot be resolved with positive-based methods? Btw, positive reinforcement is not really "positive only" because, yes, you have some negative aspects - e.g. ignoring a dog that jumps up is a negative reaction to the situation because you are withdrawing your attention, I do not believe that training should _only_ be positive but I do not see the need for training with fear, pain or discomfort. You seem to have the impression that anything other than CM type methods purely involve ignoring bad behaviours. 

With Shadow, I wouldn't ignore the bad behaviour - I wouldn't put him in that position to begin with! This doesn't mean you avoid dogs and avoid tackling the issue, it means you identify how close he can manage to go and remain comfortable. If it means you only go 200 yards near the dog at first, then stay 200 yards away. You might then progress to 190 yards, 180 yards, 170 yards, 150 yards. The idea is you keep the dog in a positive state of mind and reward it for not reacting, rather than push it over its threshold, make it react and then punish that behaviour. 
The BAT method is becoming more and more popular over here - the idea is that you reward the dog for alternative behaviour by giving it a functional reward. So a dog that is afraid of other dogs, if you get him to just before his threshold, wait for him to clock the dog but then look away, or sniff the ground, or other kinds of appeasement signals instead of the reaction or other unwanted behaviours, you then reward it by walking away, the reward being the distance that the dog wants. You're not just teaching the dog to not react, but to use much more appropriate behaviour and changing their mindset too. Do you really think that strangling a dog will teach it to relax around other dogs?
		
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*How do you know what issues can and cannot be resolved with positive-based methods?*How do I know? How do you think I know?! Because I have witnessed and tried a lot of different training methods and now try to do what suits the individual rather than blindly follow one or the other, including CM, I know there are lots of alternative methods, I am not a cheerleader for CM by any means.
Positive-based methods do not work for all dogs.

*yes, you have some negative aspects - e.g. ignoring a dog that jumps up is a negative reaction to the situation because you are withdrawing your attention*
How do you withdraw attention from a dog when it is attached to your arm?!
If a dog chases a cat onto a road in front of a car - how do you withdraw attention?
If a dog self rewards - how do you withdraw attention?

*Do you really think that strangling a dog will teach it to relax around other dogs?*
No but it will stop it attaching itself to my arm.

Please, please answer me this: for whatever reason, a dog jumps up and latches on to your arm. The situation arose.
What do you do.


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## krlyr (24 September 2012)

CaveCanem said:



			Please, please answer me this: for whatever reason, a dog jumps up and latches on to your arm. The situation arose.
What do you do.
		
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I would use the necessarily force to remove it, of course. But we're not talking about dog attacks out of the blue. These dogs don't latch onto CM's arm for no reason, he has pushed them into it. My point is that there is no need to push the dog that far. Yes, you will have instances where you misjudge the situation or events out of your control lead to an unpreventable reaction, we're only human. But there is no ned to intentionally push a dog to the point where it feels the need to latch on to your arm, that is my issue here. CM had plenty of time to know that Shadow redirects onto his lead and, intentionally or unintentionally, onto his clothes/arm too. That would be the stage where I would expect a trainer to go "Whoops, this method isn't working, let's take it down a notch", not "OK, this dog keeps jumping up and using its teeth, I'm going to put it under even more pressure and see what happens!". Ditto with Holly, he had so many warning signs from the dog but he pushed and pushed until she snapped. I would not object to the amount of force needed to remove a dog from your person as I have seen several true dog fights and know how hard they are to snap out of it, but I object to the fact he's pushed them into using their teeth when it's totally unnecessary in the first place. These are not dogs that are lashing out without reason, their reactions are preceded with lots of warning that any normal human being could pick up, let alone a supposed expert.


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## CorvusCorax (24 September 2012)

Thanks for the answer.

Re taking it down a notch - does that not then show the dog that using its' teeth and redirecting gets the results it wants?

The dogs I know or who have met (including one yesterday) who redirect onto leads and arms, are ones that have been allowed to throw their weight around, have been let away with the behaviour, have weak handlers who are not sending out a clear message that for WHATEVER reason, no matter how it was instigated, this behaviour is not acceptable.
Hell, some dogs do it because they get a result and because it is a fun game, or because it gets them out of whatever they didn't want to do, or because they did not get what they want to do - not because they have been abused or pushed or threatened.


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## Dobiegirl (24 September 2012)

The reason I see it is why he pushes to get that aggressive behaviour is to show the owners what to do when the behaviour occurs with them. I suspect if he didnt push the dog with his strong leadership handling skills the dog wouldnt exhibit them and if handed back to the owners with their weak and inaffectual handling it would occur again.


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## krlyr (24 September 2012)

No, because you do not continue to push the dog into using its teeth so it doesn't rehearse the behaviour. You shouldn't constantly be making errors and pushing the dog into biting. A dog in that kind of state of mind is unlikely to be one that learns a lesson very well anyway because they are in a high state of fear, excitement or whatever - another reason to avoid pushing that dog beyond threshold. 

Dobiegirl, dog's thesholds are so personal to that dog that it would be difficult to devise a method for your dog solely over the internet. This is probably why the clicker class was not suitable - a clicker training class would be a much more generalised class aimed at general obedience, trick training, etc., not a place to deal with a reactive dog. With Casper's reactivity, I did not go down the group class route, but one-to-one training or workshops specifically for reactive dogs (so they had a set regime to avoid the very small number - 3 - of dogs meeting each other until right at the end of the workshop, when we did a quick, very controlled exercise with the dogs). If your dog struggles to deal with a dog in the distance then a group class really isn't the place to be, and a good trainer should have given you an assessment outside of class to judge this. Remember, there are good and bad trainers in all methods, not all clicker trainers are good, I'm happy to admit that. And trainers like CM have some good methods too - his stance on exercise, stimulations, etc. are all things I agree with for the most part, I just think that many of his methods aren't good. 

But, for example, did you ever try anything with a fake dog? Casper went to this reactive dog workshop and they did most of the exercises with a stuffed toy dog - it still got reactions from every dog (I was surprised, I thought they'd spot the fake straight away) but not as severely as with a living, breathing dog, and obviously a stuffed toy is a lot more neutral and easily controlled in stooge setups - it won't move out of place, whine, bark, wag its tail or anything.




			The reason I see it is why he pushes to get that aggressive behaviour is to show the owners what to do when the behaviour occurs with them. I suspect if he didnt push the dog with his strong leadership handling skills the dog wouldnt exhibit them and if handed back to the owners with their weak and inaffectual handling it would occur again.
		
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But why not train the owners how to avoid that behaviour? For example, CM showed Holly's owner what Holly could do when really, really pushed. Why not teach the owners how not to push Holly that far? Teach them the basics of dog body language - Holly was very, very clear with her body language and if the owners were taught what to look for, they would know how to avoid a reaction like that. With that safety net behind them, they could then teach her not to resource guard, as per Victoria Stilwell for example. I don't think CM's actions in that clip 'cured' Holly - infact, I know it didn't because there's a clip of her at his rehabilitation centre showing some resource guarding with food still. His actions only proved that Holly would bite when pushed, she may have been easier to push than some dogs because of her existing guarding issues, but most dogs would bite when pushed so I saw no need to do that to prove a point.


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## CorvusCorax (24 September 2012)

*No, because you do not continue to push the dog into using its teeth so it doesn't rehearse the behaviour. You shouldn't constantly be making errors and pushing the dog into biting. A dog in that kind of state of mind is unlikely to be one that learns a lesson very well anyway because they are in a high state of fear, excitement or whatever - another reason to avoid pushing that dog beyond threshold. *

But sometimes you don't have to push the dog? Sometimes the owner isn't making an error?
Say...dog gobbing off at all other dogs it sees. Not fearful in the least, not abused, just shouting at other dogs. Not very well socialised and from working lines, quite dominant.
Trainer tugged at flat collar to get his attention, dog bit lead at this intrusion into his fun shouting and attempted to come up at trainer, trainer did not release pressure, dog calmed down and looked at the trainer for guidance. If trainer had released pressure, dog would have got the result it was looking for, which was to bark at other dogs and load himself without the annoying nagging. 
That would have been a good result for the dog in the short term but a bad result in the long term for the dog and the handler.


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## krlyr (24 September 2012)

And that's where our opinions differ again, I don't believe that a dog is just "quite dominant", I believe they have reasons for their behaviour. For example, an undersocialised dog from working lines that is non-aggressive with dogs, I would imagine the main cause of this kind of barking and pulling towards another dog would be an attempt to reach the dog and play, a case of barrier frustration. If I had put the dog into a situation where it reacted like that and went to bite, I would call that a mistake. Gobbing off, even in excitement, is not a behaviour I want or that other dogs appreciate so to have put the dog in that situation would be an error. I would learn from that mistake. I might have to use pressure on the collar in this instant, because of my mistake - the dog wants to get to the other dog, so while it was barking and lunging, I would walk away from the other dog until he was far away enough to calm down. I would be unlikely to use this time as a training opportunity because the dog is now in a state of excitement and frustration, and unable to learn very effectively - I would probably continue the walk elsewhere, allowing lots of self-calming behaviours like sniffing at scents, and let the dog have a few days of non-eventual walks before dealing with the issue.
However, now knowing about this issue, I would arrange some stooge situations - with a friend, a trainer, a behaviourist, or if none of them were possible, potentially a soft toy dog or I'd carefully make use of stranger's dogs in a controlled situation, e.g. "stalk" some dog owners who's dogs were on-lead and not able to run over to us, so I had control over the distance between us and them. I would pay very close attention to the dog's body langauge and take these as my cues to guage his threshold. A dog will often be pretty clear showing things like excitement, nerves, and so on - once you know what to look for, you see them all over the place. So I'd work with the dog sub-threshold, and teach him that my chosen behaviour (sitting calmly, watching the dog but not intently, looking away from the dog to me - a variety of alternative behaviours - results in a reward. As a functional reward in this situation, you could then use a release command and let him actually go and play with the dog, providing the setup allowed for this safely. Otherwise, reward with whatever else is as appealing, or ideally moreso, than playing with this dog - really tasty food if he's food-motivated, a game of something more fun than this other dog, lots of fuss if that's what floats his boat. Basically, rewarding each alternative behaviour that isn't pulling, whining, focusing intently, etc.
It would be a WIP - you may have to practice with him at 50 yards initially but you slowly decrease that, guaging his threshold, until he can walk up to a dog and only play when you release him to play. 
In the meantime, interactions with other dogs would be limited and you could gain more control by using a harness or a headcollar to ensure that any mistakes do not result in a bite, now that you know his reaction is to redirect onto you. 
Sure, it takes more time than jerking on a collar or using a shock collar to punish any overexcitable behaviour but I feel that not only would the training be a lot kinder to the dog, but also more effective longterm as you have now retrained his reaction to dogs and taught him that politeness is rewarding.
(and please note, I'm not a trainer so I can't say that these methods are the most accurate ways to use positive-based training, but I would approach a trainer for guidance in my methods if I was actually facing the issue myself)


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## Jools1234 (24 September 2012)

krlyr said:



			But why not train the owners how to avoid that behaviour? For example, CM showed Holly's owner what Holly could do when really, really pushed. Why not teach the owners how not to push Holly that far? Teach them the basics of dog body language - Holly was very, very clear with her body language and if the owners were taught what to look for, they would know how to avoid a reaction like that. With that safety net behind them, they could then teach her not to resource guard, as per Victoria Stilwell for example. I don't think CM's actions in that clip 'cured' Holly - infact, I know it didn't because there's a clip of her at his rehabilitation centre showing some resource guarding with food still. His actions only proved that Holly would bite when pushed, she may have been easier to push than some dogs because of her existing guarding issues, but most dogs would bite when pushed so I saw no need to do that to prove a point.
		
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in holly's case she was living in a household with young kids-you cannot be certain that  a child would not have pushed holly that far, so would it be better to confine the dog from all family time? or blame the child if it got bitten?

i think many owners need a wake up call to how far their dog will go in order to get them to make some serious decisions.

how anyone can slate CM with regards to the Holly situation i don't know-he has/had her at his rehabilitation centre and continued to work with her-after many years training i don't know any trainers first hand that would have continued with this dog (myself included)

i have no issue with VS and her methods many of them work for many dogs but dont be showing her as a glowing example that never makes a mistake she worked with one resource guarding spaniel and a few weeks later it mauled one of the kids in the house, VS advised owners to PTS (i would agree it was best) but she is not always right either if she had not read the dog wrong when she worked with it , then it would have been removed from the house before it bit the child


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## CorvusCorax (24 September 2012)

The dominance in this dog, as well as a lot of the other behaviours it exhibits, would be genetic. 

Who mentioned shock collars?!


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## krlyr (24 September 2012)

jools1234 said:



			in holly's case she was living in a household with young kids-you cannot be certain that  a child would not have pushed holly that far, so would it be better to confine the dog from all family time? or blame the child if it got bitten?
		
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I have said on the other thread that I think removing Holly from the household was not the wrong thing to do, given the inability to predict/control a child 100% of the time. But I don't see that CM needed to push Holly to biting to make this point. If he is such an expert, why could they not take his word for it that a resource guarding dog is a big risk around a child?


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## lexiedhb (24 September 2012)

This is interesting actually all Dex's poor behaviour stems from over excitement...... Dex used to mouth like no bodies business- it hurt, bruised and occasionally broke the skin. I was told to ignore him- you can not totally ignore a 25kg dog that is for all its worth launching itself at you and using its teeth- infact it made him "try" harder as he was not getting the reaction he wanted.
Taking steps towards him, rather than backing away and  Taking hold of said dog by collar and calmly putting it in the next room alone for 5 mins had the desired effect.

I also did the whole click treat/watch me method for calm behaviour round other dogs for over a year with pretty much no improvement- what works infinitely better now is a martingale headcollar and a firm leave it. As working a dog sub threshold is all well and good but depending on where you live is not always possible.

I think that there is defo a middle ground between yank and crank only and rewards based only- especially for those dogs that maybe have not had the best start, of are generally unafraid of chucking their weight around.- Would I allow CM to alpha roll my dog? hell no.


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## krlyr (24 September 2012)

CaveCanem said:



			The dominance in this dog, as well as a lot of the other behaviours it exhibits, would be genetic. 

Who mentioned shock collars?!
		
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CM uses shock collars. He's used it in a similar situation with a GSD too focused on a cat. Interestingly, the use of the shock collar either causes or doesn't prevent the GSD redirecting onto CM with its teeth.


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## Dobiegirl (24 September 2012)

I cant multi quote so here goes, I rang beforehand and explained to both accredited trainers what my dogs problem was(he was a rescue so not cocked up by me). They both said the same well you can always come in and sit the lesson out and watch what we do, the minute I walked through the door and he reacted they said take that dog out of  here and dont come back. Now they had my phone number and could have quite easily rung me but I never heard another thing from them. A fake dog wouldnt have worked because he wouldnt react unless it barked, I had done that much at home as he was good and reliable with dogs he knew.

My new trainer ex police dog handler knew exactly what to do and first took me outside to take the dog away from the situation  in order to talk to me and explain what he wanted me to do. When we walked back inside the trainer walked beside us giving me instruction at every moment. As I said before when checked (he was on a choke chain) he would come up the lead and bite, without the choke chain I would have had no control as he was 40kg.  Only haltis were available then and were pretty rubbish as they rode up to his eyes and would have made the situation worse. Under his guidence my dog became 100% reliable and sadly I lost him a couple of years ago due to a medical problem.

What you are seeing on CMs shows are dogs with very severe problems and like others am not convinced that Hollys only problem was food aggression. We didnt get to see the whole programme and so its unfair to make a judgement on a snapshot in time.


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## CorvusCorax (24 September 2012)

This dog I mentioned, the dog who is genetically predisposed to being dominant and a bit hard-headed, is on a flat collar and the owner will not countenance anything more. 

I do not see the relevance of shock collars to the scenario I am talking about, sorry.

Yes, sometimes shock collars activate dogs, sometimes they don't.
Sometimes dogs throw tantrums when they are distracted from their fun activities like cat chasing and arm-grabbing.


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## Jools1234 (24 September 2012)

'shoot me now'

i have in the past used an shock collar on my lurcher to stop her from hunting feral cats, she does not just chase she hunts, she can easily clear without touching a 6ft fence, i have no idea how high she could scale. she has followed cats out onto a busy road in the excitement of the chase. i have introduced her to cats, have worked with her on a lead with cats but it makes no difference her prey drive is huge-the electric collar has created a dog that thinks feral cats have a defence mechanism that hurts if she is hunting creating a dog that has not hunted a cat for a couple of years. she wore the collar for 2 months before it was used she was in a safe enviroment and it took 3 shocks.

if i had not been able to stop this she would have to be kennelled all the time i am at work instead of being able to come with me and be loose on the yard. i think she would have a much lower quality of life if i had not bitten the bullet and swallowed my pride (i was against these collars) all dogs and situations are different.

also you cannot blame CM if the owners of a dog do not realise how serious a situation is with their dog, meaning he has to demonstrate


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## krlyr (24 September 2012)

Dobiegirl said:



			I cant multi quote so here goes, I rang beforehand and explained to both accredited trainers what my dogs problem was(he was a rescue so not cocked up by me). They both said the same well you can always come in and sit the lesson out and watch what we do, the minute I walked through the door and he reacted they said take that dog out of  here and dont come back. Now they had my phone number and could have quite easily rung me but I never heard another thing from them.
		
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Like I said, not every trainer is the same. I would not take my reactive dog into an indoor group class even if we were sitting the lesson out as I know that he would struggle a lot with dogs moving around all over the place in what can usually be quite a busy, energetic environment (lots of smells and sounds, lots of excited dogs). The trainer I approached held outdoor classes so the idea was that we could skirt around the edges of the (very large) venue and work on our commands with Casper beneath threshold, and as well as training the usual commands, teach him to work around other dogs and ignore them. The trainer was happy to consider this but arranged an assessment, and we found that even at a distance, he was not at the stage where he could focus on me with a dog moving around at as far a distance as we could manage (with me needing to be able to hear her for the class). The assessment was purposely done outside of class time so that her other, paying, customers weren't affected, so that the other dogs in the class weren't affected (she used her own dog, very used to seeing dogs react and not bothered by it at all) and so that Casper was only tested at a minimal level, so no unnecessary stress on him either. Walking a reactive dog into the middle of a class being taught is not fair on anyone involved IMO.



CaveCanem said:



			This dog I mentioned, the dog who is genetically predisposed to being dominant and a bit hard-headed, is on a flat collar and the owner will not countenance anything more.
		
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A trainer can only suggest, it's up to the owner to take action. If I were a trainer and a client refused to do as I suggested then there is little more I can do other than try to explain my methods and talk them around to it, even just giving it a try. Though the use of a flat collar wouldn't particularly be an issue if they kept the dog below threshold. Interestingly, I know many people who have found a reactive dog to be 'cured' almost instantly by switching from a flat collar to a harness though - the lack of pressure on the neck can make a huge difference, whether it's down to an association the dog has formed with the feeling, to allowing the dog more oxygen, removing a source of pain, removing the tension that the dog may pick up on and so on.

As I said, I don't believe in dogs "being dominant", not in this kind of context, so cannot really give my view on how to deal with a trait I don't believe exists.


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## CorvusCorax (24 September 2012)

A harness on this dog gives complete freedom to the head and neck, allowing him to fixate and gob off at whatever dog he wants. Has already been tried.

I said the dog is dominant genetically. Do you think genetics do not have a role to play?


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## krlyr (24 September 2012)

I think genetics play a role, sure, but not in dominance. The dog may be genetically more prone to overexcitement, a lack of self control, to fear (in the case of fear reactivity, not this dog) and so on, but I don't think that dominance exists in the way you are using it.

The harness may give more freedom, but we're giving the dog more distance to prevent him reaching the state of gobbing off, remember. If he's still gobbing off, he's been pushed over threshold and the owner needs to create more distance, remove distractions, move down a level in training.


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## CorvusCorax (24 September 2012)

You don't think a dog from old Eastern bloc border patrol lineage, might just have a predisposition to be dominant?


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## Jools1234 (24 September 2012)

krlyr said:



			The harness may give more freedom, but we're giving the dog more distance to prevent him reaching the state of gobbing off, remember. If he's still gobbing off, he's been pushed over threshold and the owner needs to create more distance, remove distractions, move down a level in training.
		
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i dont think i would live for enough years (let alone the dog) to be able to solve the issues some dogs have using your suggested methods-i am not all for a quick fix but i would still not be able to be in the same street as a running cat if i had not gone on to try other methods

some behaviour is just not acceptable and you cannot control the dogs enviroment 100% of the time, sometimes no means no and the handler has to make the dog aware of that. you dont see bitches taking their puppies away from every situation that the puppy might find worrying or taking it if a puppy redirects its aggression and she is in the firing line, she would just floor them


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## krlyr (24 September 2012)

Nope. Maybe more likely to show a strong guarding behaviour, maybe more independant thinking if it's from a line of dogs that have been left to think for themselves, maybe more vocal, but not just "dominant", I think behaviours are more diverse with more explanation behind them than just "dominance"


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## CorvusCorax (24 September 2012)

OK, you don't like the word dominance.

How about genetic predisposition to handler aggression, dog aggression - ingrained and NOT caused by fear or over-exciteability - aggression over resources, sensitivity to correction, hardness to correction, vocalisation as you say, shyness. They all exist.


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## Dobiegirl (24 September 2012)

When I explained my problem to these accredited trainers they didnt forsee a problem, now Im just your average dog owner and was way over my head so when people selling classes and are trained trainers you do tend to believe that they know what they are talking about.

I have 2 questions for Krylr are you a dog trainer and what experience do you have with guarding breeds.


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## Dobiegirl (24 September 2012)

CaveCanem said:



			OK, you don't like the word dominance.

How about genetic predisposition to handler aggression, dog aggression - ingrained and NOT caused by fear or over-exciteability - aggression over resources, sensitivity to correction, hardness to correction, vocalisation as you say, shyness. They all exist.
		
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I think its called innate behaviour.


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## krlyr (24 September 2012)

Dobiegirl said:



			When I explained my problem to these accredited trainers they didnt forsee a problem, now Im just your average dog owner and was way over my head so when people selling classes and are trained trainers you do tend to believe that they know what they are talking about.

I have 2 questions for Krylr are you a dog trainer and what experience do you have with guarding breeds.
		
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And I've had window salesmen promise me they can beat any quote - they don't know every quote I've had or would have, but they have an agenda, to make money. I don't know these trainers you dealt with but maybe they wanted money, maybe they lack experience in very reactive dogs, maybe believed your dog would cope, maybe this, maybe that...but my point is there are many positive-based trainers who would go about things very differently so you cannot strike off positive training simply by the actions of those two classes. You need to judge trainers on their individual merit - like I said, there are many things I think CM does well but some of his methods I do not like at all and would therefore not use him or any other trainer that uses those methods. I wouldn't write off every dog trainer because of CM. 

I've already said I'm not a dog trainer, and yes, I have grown up with GSDs and own a GSD and Rottweiler cross, so I have some experience.


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## krlyr (24 September 2012)

CaveCanem said:



			They all exist.
		
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I believe I've already said so myself too. They're all something I would take into account with a dog but they're not things that would make me believe that physical force was a better method to use. Certain traits might have be rethink my methods or put extra training in - an independant nature would have me doing exercises at home to increase that focus on me, for example, vocalisation would warrant some specific training that I could then apply in regards to their behaviour to other dogs.


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## Dobiegirl (24 September 2012)

Of course like everything else qualifications can mean nothing, I happen to believe now that experience is far better. CM has been slagged off in the past for his lack of qualifications but in my opinion he is head and shoulders
above a lot of trainers who wouldnt take on Pitbulls and the like.

I have to say your post came over as very patronising to me, you probabley didnt mean it and I will give you the benefit of the doubt now but perhaps its something to bear in mind for the future.


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## krlyr (24 September 2012)

Dobiegirl said:



			Of course like everything else qualifications can mean nothing, I happen to believe now that experience is far better. CM has been slagged off in the past for his lack of qualifications but in my opinion he is head and shoulders
above a lot of trainers who wouldnt take on Pitbulls and the like.

I have to say your post came over as very patronising to me, you probabley didnt mean it and I will give you the benefit of the doubt now but perhaps its something to bear in mind for the future.
		
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And so does yours, so something for you to bear in mind too perhaps.


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## CorvusCorax (24 September 2012)

If money was the main motivation behind, say, Dobiegirl's trainer's actions, wouldn't they string it out for as long as possible, using a very slow process with slow and/or limited success rather than one or two sessions with quick/lasting results? 

That's not to say CM does not have a few quid in the bank


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## Dobiegirl (24 September 2012)

krlyr said:



			And so does yours, so something for you to bear in mind too perhaps.
		
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Your analogy of the window salesman was patronising to the extreme, it couldnt be read any other way. As I said Im just your average dog owner though given my age probabley dealt with more dogs than you and as an average dog owner went to well qualified recommended dog trainers. I explained my problems to them over the phone and was assurred it was something they had dealt with before. 

My patronising to you was in response to you so in dog parlance you could say I was reactive to your reaction.


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## krlyr (24 September 2012)

CaveCanem said:



			If money was the main motivation behind, say, Dobiegirl's trainer's actions, wouldn't they string it out for as long as possible, using a very slow process with slow and/or limited success rather than one or two sessions with quick/lasting results? 

That's not to say CM does not have a few quid in the bank 

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Depends, do they want to make as much money as they possibly can, or do they want to make as much money as possible with minimal effort? Therefore, bunging as many dogs into a class as they can regardless of issues. Or, like I said, it may not be money-making.


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## CAYLA (24 September 2012)

I think you need to stretch your anology to people who don't have say 2 or 3 years to try and get a dangerous behaviour under control using some methods outlined, infact I have worked with people using these methods (who where advised to use) the methods outlined and it got them know where but frustrated, their moneys handed over and them left with instruction to follow such training (rarely given a demonstration) by the trainer themselves.
How much do you think people have to spend on trainers before they are living on beans, I have had people come to me who have spend into the thousands (I would say) they tried their damndest and a alot of trainers along the way and then one day if lucky enough met a trainer with common sense (realistic/experienced) in the approach to solving the behaviours, be it firm handling/negative/positive/reprimand and a mix of a few (probably the trainer) DG found in the end would be a good example.

Of course there are plenty of descent trainers out there, the difference with CM is he is willing to put his methods out there and take the critisism. There are plenty of trainers out there using hidden methods (methods they fear) may make an owner weep or turn in disgust (however happy) to have to dog handed back (fixed) someone showed me a good but shocking example of this only a few days ago (can't remember) the mans name, little fat fella, basically using (shock collars) with a rattle bottle then waltzing on out armed only with the rattle bottle (claiming to have trained the dog) atleast you can see up front what CM does.
We see a few other trainers but not dealing with the extreme cases CM does, infact we see them deal with the very basics (no doubt picked out from their list of) "take a look these are the problems, pick what you like and we will mkae it a show" and make a fair bit of dosh from it.

I will answer your question CC, I would/have and still will cut of a dogs air supply to prevent it attacking me or another animal.


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## NeverSayNever (24 September 2012)

CAYLA said:



			I

Of course there are plenty of descent trainers out there, the difference with CM is he is willing to put his methods out there and take the critisism. There are plenty of trainers out there using hidden methods (methods they fear) may make an owner weep or turn in disgust (however happy) to have to dog handed back (fixed) someone showed me a good but shocking example of this only a few days ago (can't remember) the mans name, little fat fella, basically using (shock collars) with a rattle bottle then waltzing on out armed only with the rattle bottle (claiming to have trained the dog) atleast you can see up front what CM does.
		
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hmmm...  I am highly suspicious of the shhhh noise he continually makes. It sounds very like a spray collar to me and there has to be a reason the dogs react to shhh in the first place. Or have I missed something? 


I still have my Jan Fennell book..  I have far more respect for her.


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## CAYLA (24 September 2012)

NeverSayNever said:



			hmmm...  I am highly suspicious of the &#8216;shhhh&#8217; noise he continually makes. It sounds very like a spray collar to me and there has to be a reason the dogs react to &#8216;shhh&#8217; in the first place. Or have I missed something? 


I still have my Jan Fennell book..  I have far more respect for her.
		
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Lol its the dig NSN the little dig he gives in the side to "snap the dog out of focus" he couples with a "shhhh" vocal but becasue folk are not so bright (those using the sound alone) they just say "shhhh" coupled with nothing else and belive it's the sound that works alone its not a spray but the hand touch coupled with "shhhh".

ETA I use "leave it" couple with a check if im working with a lead aggressive dog for instance, after a few checks, I then just say "leave it" my comparison.

Is JF the hyper older ginger woman? I watched a show with her and she made a huge boo boo with a stooge dog when it attacked the "dog with issues" but it may not have been her as can't remember her name, she was ginger (I think) talked really fast, used alot of hand movements and seemed hyperactive (or am I talking about someone else) possibly lol


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## CorvusCorax (24 September 2012)

We use shhh-type noises and rolled tongues (brrrap?! ) as a stimulation.

I do meet a guy with a pack of very rude dogs and he does the whole stopping and shushing and poking thing, I told him to keep walking a few weeks ago as he was just creating a stand-off and he was quite rude back to me so the next time we passed him and his dogs jumping all over the place I said to the dog, 'oh look, there's the Dog Whisperer again'.


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## NeverSayNever (24 September 2012)

ahhh! now I know haha!

yes she may be the hyper red head you mean 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QNaPwv-jWto


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## krlyr (25 September 2012)

CAYLA said:



			Of course there are plenty of descent trainers out there, the difference with CM is he is willing to put his methods out there and take the critisism. There are plenty of trainers out there using hidden methods (methods they fear) may make an owner weep or turn in disgust (however happy) to have to dog handed back (fixed) someone showed me a good but shocking example of this only a few days ago (can't remember) the mans name, little fat fella, basically using (shock collars) with a rattle bottle then waltzing on out armed only with the rattle bottle (claiming to have trained the dog) atleast you can see up front what CM does.
		
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I wouldn't be so sure, there are plenty of people claiming CM uses shock collars off-air to prime the dog to react how they do on camera. Of course, they're just claims, but there was a video that was released of him using a stooge dog to wind up a reactive dog before filming, and there's still videos up on Youtube of him actually laughing at a dog that was pushed into reacting - what is funny about the high level of stress that the dog must have been going through? At the end of the day, CM's show is highly edited, but the amount of controversial reports from people involved in the show suggests to me that more goes on than we see. I think even one of his camera crew came forward to complain about some of CM's methods before, I can't find the article at the minute but will have a hunt. Interestingly, apparently his clients have to sign a non-disclosure type agreement to not go to the press or anything with any fallout that occurs after his training..speaks volumes to me (and again, goes against your "what you see is what you get" statement).


As for trainers not taking on the same cases CM does - I think you'll find many do, they just choose to do it for their love of dogs rather than to be in front of the camera. I'm on a dog forum with several behaviourists who have some dogs with pretty serious issues, dog aggression, human aggression and so on. Some of them have turned dozens of dogs around and successfully rehomed them, but they don't feel the need to do it in front of a camera. Positive-reinforcement probably makes more boring TV with these cases due to the time and patience required anyway - it'd be quite repetitive, there would be no "exciting" reaction scenes or standoffs between trainer and dog, and so on. CM and his team definately know what makes for eyecatching TV.


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## Dobiegirl (25 September 2012)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BLFuTtZkUwM


Cayla I think Ive found your little fat fella I could be wrong of course Im sure there are lots of little fat fellas. He is well recommended and as an added bonus lots of goodies for sale.

CC you may also want to check it out Im sure you would pick up a hint or 2 not.


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## lexiedhb (25 September 2012)

I contacted this little fat fella- given his response I would not have taken a gerbil to see him!


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## CorvusCorax (25 September 2012)

What is wrong with dogs having to cope with stress? Humans have to cope with stress, horses have to cope with stress. Sometimes we can't avoid it and sometimes we have to work through it and sometimes we have to help our animals through it.

I would absolutely prefer that people would stop breeding from dogs that can't cope with stress or pressure but they are and we have to deal with the dogs that we have and the problems that they have.


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## MerrySherryRider (25 September 2012)

krlyr said:



			I'm on a dog forum with several behaviourists who have some dogs with pretty serious issues, dog aggression, human aggression and so on. Some of them have turned dozens of dogs around and successfully rehomed them, *but they don't feel the need to do it in front of a camera. *

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LOL Is that because they are too noble or is it because they haven't been asked ?

Unless a trainer is prepared to move in with a family and wait for the behaviour to occur, using a trigger to get the dog to display the undesired behaviour is necessary. Of course the trainer can take the dog away to train, but what use is that ? Its the owners that need training.


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## s4sugar (25 September 2012)

horserider said:



			LOL Is that because they are too noble or is it because they haven't been asked ?

Unless a trainer is prepared to move in with a family and wait for the behaviour to occur, using a trigger to get the dog to display the undesired behaviour is necessary. Of course the trainer can take the dog away to train, but what use is that ? Its the owners that need training.
		
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 Good point!
I do lots of training -usually when owners have given up or often when owners can't be bothered. 
I need to find out what makes a dog tick and need to find out quickly.
Usually the only clue I get is an answer like this to the question "Have you been to dog training?" :_
"just local one in {place} he was very badly behaved lol x

Dog was handed in to welfare for being too boisterous & can't be left. Dog is a normal teenager who learnt how to walk on a lead in about five minutes once he realised he wouldn't get a piece of sausage if he misbehaved.
CM gets results for lots of dogs and is often a last resort. We don't get to hear how many other methods the people have tried.

Pinch collars can be a useful tool if used correctly as can chains. I hate headcollars & harnesses on dogs (without medical reasons)and if a dog turns up with one I know there will be problems. 

My party piece is putting a rope slip on a dog that "won't walk on the lead" and holding it with one finger as I walk around and away and back to the owner. I teach lead use with a collar round the owners wrist -no point messing with the dog.


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## Dobiegirl (25 September 2012)

Haha S4Sugar and I guess you dont have any fancy letters after your name and you are working also to rehome that dog so no fancy fees for you either.

It just kills me what is being trained now by behaviourists, much like how kids are brought up without consequences and we all know how those turned out.

When I did my good citizen award with Darcy who was fear reactive to start with she sailed through it all and her sit stays were solid. One member who was a friend and had spent a lot of money with a one to one with this trainer couldnt get her dog to sit stay for the exam. Her dog was given 3 chances and at one point all the other dogs were asked to leave the hall, needless to say her dog passed the exam but it left a bitter taste with me as I felt it devalued Darcys award.


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## Spudlet (25 September 2012)

Dobiegirl said:



			It just kills me what is being trained now by behaviourists, much like how kids are brought up without consequences and we all know how those turned out.
		
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Kindly don't tar all behaviourists with that brush. I find your post offensive.


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## Dobiegirl (25 September 2012)

Spudlet said:



			Kindly don't tar all behaviourists with that brush. I find your post offensive.
		
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I think you will find I speak from personal experience and read through this post and a lot of people have had the same experiences. Of course there are good ones as well as bad that goes without saying, your experience with your trainer you feel is a good one. Perhaps you would like to tell us how they would tackle some of the problems brought up on here including my very dog aggressive 40kg male Dobermann.


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## CorvusCorax (25 September 2012)

There does seem to be a split between those influenced by academia/research/web links written in nice language and those out working practically with dogs over many years.
I'd rather take advice from an experienced trainer who can see my own dog in front of me and observe it's behaviour and preferably have a knowledge of the genetics (I realise this is a luxury) than a book or a web link or someone who has written a book or something for the web, although of course those could influence my thinking.

While I don't mean to tar anyone with any brushes, some of the things I have heard being taught to potential trainers, is a little disturbing.

Goes back to my point, how do you ignore a dog chasing a cat under the wheels of a car. Sometimes with some dogs you have to use compulsion. IMO


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## Spudlet (25 September 2012)

I have considered responding to this thread many times, but it is clearly a wasted effort. Nor am I about to post on behalf of the people I'm talking about. However to call an entire, diverse profession into question is frankly silly.

However this thread has reminded me why I didn't bother coming here for support about Henry being unwell, when once it would have been my first port of call.


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## Dobiegirl (25 September 2012)

I think the majority of us use different methods, I dont have a preference for any particular trainer and I tend to pick and choose depending on an individual dog. Darcy was fear aggressive and clicker training worked well for her, with Fred he was trying to take your arm off anyway and a treat and clicker would never work for him . I have said many times I have lots of tools in my toolbox and only a fool would expect one size to fit all.

Spudlet Im sorry to hear Henry has been unwell and you know full well you would have everyones help with this. This is a forum with people who have different opinions but Im sure and I speak for myself here I can disagree with someone on one thing but agree on another. You can certainly count on my help if I can towards Henry.


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## CorvusCorax (25 September 2012)

Sorry to hear about Henry, Spudlet, hope he is on the mend soon...I know you are probably feeling crappy about that, but it's just a debate with differing opinions - and you know how important a thick skin is in this game...you can even poke me with a pointy stick if you like x


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## lexiedhb (25 September 2012)

CaveCanem said:



			While I don't mean to tar anyone with any brushes, some of the things I have heard being taught to potential trainers, is a little disturbing.
		
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The problem is this is just your opinion. Others may not find the methods disturbing at all, may even have found them to work. Horses for courses. Not every method will work with every dog.


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## Spudlet (25 September 2012)

He has possible seasonal canine illness. I'm bricking it that I might lose him although he's still perky at the moment, just hoping he doesn't go downhill as they can drop rapidly with this thing, and that he has just eaten something horrid. So sorry if I'm snappy.

As for norty Dobe - ok, if he came to our class, yes he would have to leave initially, we can't have very aggressive dogs in a confined space with others. If the owner of such a dog was honest about his issues, I doubt he'd have come to class in the first place, as the head trainer won't lie about what we can deal with. What we do have is a behaviourist who is the boss's business partner (yep, eek a behaviourist), with proper stooge dogs - which are also working gundogs, so she is not a fluffy 'ignore all the bad'  lady - like all of us, she believes that dogs need boundaries. She can do 1-2-1 or runs 'growly' classes for when they are ready. I have seen her achieve some impressive things, and not all involving a big bag of sweeties although reward comes into it as much as consequences. As to exactly what she'd do - I don't know, it would depend on the circumstances.

Most of our 'normal' training is done through play and making it fun for the dogs - our goal is for all our dogs to walk well in a flat collar, we don't have check chains in class, and slip-leads are reserved for gundog clients only as we work on both the left and right, so a slip lead would be upside down half the time. Some of our teenage dogs go through a headcollar phase but the majority come out the other side - depending ultimately on the client and how much time they can put in. I can get most of our dogs heeling in a flat collar but that does not mean everyone can, everyone is different in the time they can put in. We are not training dogs though - we are training the clients, this is very different to what many people expect of a trainer. I will take clients' dogs to demonstrate for them, but the training is down to them.


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## CorvusCorax (25 September 2012)

Lexie, horses for courses, I do agree with - but that is not what is being taught, more's the pity - it's this way, or no way and the dog cannot be helped if it isn't that way. That's only one course though.

ETA - sorry to hear about that Spud, hope it is just Henry eating something manky x


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## lexiedhb (25 September 2012)

CaveCanem said:



			Lexie, horses for courses, I do agree with - but that is not what is being taught, more's the pity - it's this way, or no way and the dog cannot be helped. That's only one course though.
		
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Tell me about it..... I had my fair share of this does not work- do not come back.  I very much doubt your training lot run round doing fluffy bunnie methodology tho! So they also only have the one way!!


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## CorvusCorax (25 September 2012)

We have several different trainers using several different methods, from the fluffy bunny to the non-fluffy - horses for courses, as you say. Most of the dogs are clicker trained, including my own, but ultimately he has had too many choices given to him and we are having to re-start a few things - heelwork with food and a ball, doesn't get much fluffier than that, but just making him work a bit harder and concentrate a bit more. With something like tracking, for example there can be no negativity or correction or compulsion at all. Most of what we do is trained through play/prey. It has to be fun.


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## Dobiegirl (25 September 2012)

Spudlet I can understand your worry and am happy to accept your apology and completely understand. I know Henry is an old dog and that makes it more difficult with his age, what he does have on his side is he is fit and previously healthy and whilst I cannot offer any advice on his disease Im sure you have a very good vet doing all the right things. Fingers crossed his current treatment works and he is returned to full health.

As regards my naughty Dobe I didnt hold back on telling them exactly how it was on the phone as I realised it would have been pointless. The fact is they reassured me they had experience of this problem but when they saw him it was a different story. As regards stooge dogs it wouldnt have worked with them if they didnt bark as he just went into major protection mode. If you or anyone else had  walked around that hall with them and all the dogs barked he wouldnt have reacted at all. My ex police dog handler told me I had an incredible bond with this dog and that was not an eupherism for anything else as he was very straight talking and told it like it was. 

Im not going to go any further with this as I did lose him and it still kills me to talk about him but my ex police handler trainer did turn him around and helped turn him into the most amazing trustworthy obedient dog I ever had.


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## Broodle (25 September 2012)

CaveCanem said:



			What is wrong with dogs having to cope with stress? Humans have to cope with stress, horses have to cope with stress. Sometimes we can't avoid it and sometimes we have to work through it and sometimes we have to help our animals through it.
		
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^^^This!!  I have found this thread a fascinating read, and have so far not replied because I am just a two pet dog owner with relatively little experience, so not really qualified to judge CM or his methods.  However, common sense to me suggests that a trainer trying to resolve a problem will have to witness the problem in action, and will therefore inevitably have to push the dog to a point where it is demonstrating it.  So what if this involves putting the dog under some temporary pressure 

Going off on a tangent for a bit... 

To my simple mind installing discipline (the difference between right and wrong behaviour) in a dog isn't so very far removed from doing the same with a child   And supernanny Jo Frost has marvellous results with her techniques, which all involve the child demonstrating the bad behaviour and then being punished via the naughty step or similar.  They key is that the parent must clearly explain _why_ the punishment is being imposed. 

I can't see any problem with punishing bad behaviour in a dog, as long as it is crystal clear to the dog what that punishment is for.  Similarly, I think it is essential that all good behaviour is fully and enthusiastically praised.  

And I will be adopting the same approach to the rearing of my first child, due in just over a week!! 

ETS:  Sorry to hear about your poorly dog Spudlet - I hope you get good news soon.


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## CAYLA (25 September 2012)

Broodle said:



			^^^This!!  I have found this thread a fascinating read, and have so far not replied because I am just a two pet dog owner with relatively little experience, so not really qualified to judge CM or his methods.  However, common sense to me suggests that a trainer trying to resolve a problem will have to witness the problem in action, and will therefore inevitably have to push the dog to a point where it is demonstrating it.  So what if this involves putting the dog under some temporary pressure 

Going off on a tangent for a bit... 

To my simple mind installing discipline (the difference between right and wrong behaviour) in a dog isn't so very far removed from doing the same with a child   And supernanny Jo Frost has marvellous results with her techniques, which all involve the child demonstrating the bad behaviour and then being punished via the naughty step or similar.  They key is that the parent must clearly explain _why_ the punishment is being imposed. 

I can't see any problem with punishing bad behaviour in a dog, as long as it is crystal clear to the dog what that punishment is for.  Similarly, I think it is essential that all good behaviour is fully and enthusiastically praised.  

And I will be adopting the same approach to the rearing of my first child, due in just over a week!! 

ETS:  Sorry to hear about your poorly dog Spudlet - I hope you get good news soon.
		
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Very sensible post and the type I expect from a pet dog owner looking in on a situation and a realistic one at that.

Sorry to to hear about Henry, but suprised you mention not wanting to come here due to debates (this debate) has remained sensible imo, no spats, name calling, arguments (full on scraps) obs people get a little more frustrated when a deabte does not go their way.
I get frustrated at some points of view, but its their/other point of view at the end of the day.!

Kylr (sorry) if thats not the right letters, CM does indeed (has indeed) used E collars and explained he was using them (never hid the fact) not like the shameful little fat fella in DG's link pretending he walked behind a car and turned up out the other side with a trained dog or his jingle bells that cure all behaviours
I have no issue with E collars (dont use them myself) and deal with way more than a dozen dogs! and have a similar set up re (the many dogs) he has in his yard/compound/property and use for his flodding methods with the already rehabed dogs of all shapes, breeds and sizes and it works fantastic, aslong as you are confident in your handling. (Im talking hundreds of dogs here, not a handful) and this part really interests me as its a method I use, aswell as his exercise and stimulation and his anology of treating dogs like babies ( I worked with and trained dogs long before the CM shows began and have taken nothing new from him but I still watch with interest) I dont agree with all the methods he uses but also dot understand all the flack he gets either.
I have limited time to deal with dogs (we are a rescue) I cant spend 6 months a time on a dog and unlike an owner with 1 or 2 pet dogs who can have all the time in the world to spend on a behaviour (you will still find they want a cure quick however) 
People dont want dogs to die yet dont want them to be trained or handled in a firm manner nor do they want the training to string out (they want a cure yesterday!), so whats it to be??  (and yes indeed firmness is needed and some amount of stress as CC suggests is indeed needed) believe me!
Its gets back tot he same old, methods, vary them use them all to your advantage, but (be realistic) 

Re the trainers, I was talking more of the few we have on TV already (or those with strong views against CM with a passion who would like to come show us their methods!, the few we have....Cesar and a few that deal in very basic behaviour. 
I am more than confident to work with dogs (involve a camera) and I would hide I dont use any aids, bar firm handling (should I need it) this would be in the form of a check! and my vocals and my own dogs. Also the owners would hear a few more rude (home truths from  me) so I would not make good tv for that reason and my ugly face and lack of super model body and leather whip lash outfits


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## CAYLA (25 September 2012)

horserider said:



			LOL Is that because they are too noble or is it because they haven't been asked ?

Unless a trainer is prepared to move in with a family and wait for the behaviour to occur, using a trigger to get the dog to display the undesired behaviour is necessary. Of course the trainer can take the dog away to train, but what use is that ? Its the owners that need training.
		
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^^ good post, and the stress involved dealing with so many dogs each and every day (including rescue) of which he seems to do equally if not more than dealing with owners and dogs, I can tell you it's life consuming and very very stressfull and emotionally draining. He has divorced through this to has he not? no doubt to the dogs consuming his life.


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## MurphysMinder (25 September 2012)

Some good posts on here, I think people do need to realise that different dogs need different methods.  If you have a dog that responds to all positive reinforcement, great, but some dogs need to have things put across to them rather more strongly and there is no doubt in my mind that some of the trainers nowadays just can't deal with this sort of thing.
That clip of the little fat man is classic, it is so obviously the dog has been zapped with an e collar.  I can imagine people watching that clip and frantically searching for a rattle tin that plays Barbie Girl 
Spudlet, I hope Henry has picked up now, the fact that you are aware that it might be seasonal canine illness means that you can be on the case fast, so I am sure he will be fine.  Keep us updated.


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## craigpay (26 October 2012)

Can I just point out that 26 UK charities including the RSPCA and DogsTrust are calling for Cesar's methods to be banned in the UK. He freely admits to using electric shock collars and these are now illegal in Wales with calls to have them banned elsewhere in the UK.

This isn't a bunch of extremist animal rights activists. His opponents are professional, qualified dog trainers and organisations that support said individuals.

More information here: http://www.dogwelfarecampaign.org/press-statement.php

Craig


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## CorvusCorax (26 October 2012)

Yep, the arguments have been put forward many times and then the same people strop off or leave the thread if you don't agree with them. I'm still of the 'horses for courses' school of thought. 
And I am sorry but the words 'electric' and 'collar' in the same sentence don't make everyone fall off their chairs. I've not used one personally but it is a tool that can be abused in the same way as any other tool (or by any other tool ).
At least he admits to using them, there are plenty of people who call themselves positive trainers who use slightly less positive methods 'behind the shed'.
You're on a horse forum. People on here often put metal things in their horses mouths, including chifneys and pelhams, fence them with electrics, hit them with sticks/whips, spur them with metal and nail metal shoes onto their feet but nobody bats an eyelid.

Despite all the negative publicity, people still go to him, pay him money, buy his books. So his methods obviously work for some people.


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## kathgorick (26 October 2012)

Well done Alan Titchmarsh for a superb interview.  Alan did his research.  15 charities including the RSPCA, Dogs Trust & APBC have issued a joint Press Release warning of the dangers of Cesar Millans training methods.  It's about time people took notice of professional opinion and not to a self-styled guru making millions out of exploitation.


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## craigpay (26 October 2012)

I'm not going to get all huffy. Just spreading some information around.


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## CorvusCorax (26 October 2012)

Yep, but it is information that has been out there before, people can take it or leave it - that's now three first-time posters on Cesar Millan subjects today, welcome to HHO 


I am sure those expressing a 'professional opinion' are getting paid too


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## craigpay (26 October 2012)

Busted! 

Yeah this is a slightly hot topic at the moment with the Alan Titchmarsh interview and CM pushing promotion for his 2013 UK tour. Someone over in Facebook-world mentioned that H&H mag had run a CM advert so that's probably counting for the extra interest. I've urged people to keep it civil. Nothing to be gained from being offensive, even though we're getting trolled all over the place from a pretty aggressive CM fan base.

Anyway, just spreading the word. I'm a keen shooter myself, targets only, maybe not your average AR nut. 

Craig


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## Dobiegirl (26 October 2012)

Yep first time posters and whats the betting we dont see them again after this thread

Everyone seems to be jumping on lets get CM band wagon, as Ive said before he is not the second coming or the devil incarnate. 

Every dog is different and what works for one dosnt always work with another. Prong collars are no different to curb chains they do not come into force unless needed yet people are making out they are the most barbaric tool known to man. A little less hysteria and more logic is needed, go and google, do your research.Its the same with electric collars people seem to think they are linked to the mains and are on all the time if using one of these stops your dog from worrying sheep isnt it better than a bullet,  not to mention the stress and injury casued to the poor sheep.


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## CorvusCorax (26 October 2012)

Now DG, be nice to the newbies, Craig has already replied twice 

Welcome to the madhouse, this is one of the more reasoned, well-debated, interesting threads on the subject and I've taken on board a lot from it!


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## Dobiegirl (26 October 2012)

Haha CC I did say this thread.

Ive got to smile, Im not his biggest fan and dont agree with all his methods, the alpha roll for example I never got my head around that one.

But with some of the dogs he has to deal with that other trainers have given up on he has been their last resort. When people start coming on here and saying well actually if he had done this that and this they will have my attention.


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## KatandBasher (26 October 2012)

There is never any excuse or reason to use punishment, aversives, prong, shock, or anything else when working with dogs. Dogs are not out to be aggressive and cause harm just for the sheer hell of it. Aggression problems are due to fear and using punishment etc isn't going to help that dog feel better at all. Bullying and intimidating a dog until it shuts down in fear isn't helping the dog. You need to find out what the dog is fearful of and work with the dog in a positive way to help it deal with and cope with the fear until it can get over its problem. Dogs look to their owners for help and guidance and using punishment methods only teaches the dog that its owner is unpredictable and not a safe person to be around. Zookeepers can train lions, tigers, rhino, hyena etc using clickers and positive training and these animals are way more dangerous than any pet dog. The domestic dog is the most easily trained animal on the planet so one must question themselves if they have to rely on force and intimidation to just force the dog to shut down rather than actually train the dog. Cesar Millan hasn't a clue what he's doing, all he's interested in is fame and fortune. Just because he played with dogs on his families farm does not make him qualified to work with dogs in a professional capacity. I watch Grey's Amatomy but that doesn't mean I can go and perform brain surgery.


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## KatandBasher (26 October 2012)

Copied with permission from the friend of a friend. A bit long but makes for interesting reading.

Drayton Michaels:
 Has anyone on this thread been in the entertainment industry for real? If you have then youll understand if not then well maybe you wont. Leah is on to something with the reinforcement for his behaviour. Also one must take into account that people own him, and they are the ones with the power.

This is a whole other beast with Milan. If he was just another pain trainer with a TV show he would have had one season and been long gone. Problem is he has made powerful friends in Hollywood and he makes money for them. At 100 million a year he is worth something. 

He is a tool for those that own him, and they do, period. They are simply manipulating his natural inability to actually think, so its not difficult for him to basically be himself while the money rolls in, the bosses do very little and make a great profit. At 100 million a year a 10  15% cut of that is quite a motivator for making sure he stays on the air. 

He obviously has the means and the access to seek out help if that were his aim. His appalling attempt to overthrow American Humans and try to put on a symposium was shut down faster than a liquor store near a high school. Why? Because finally people said no and he had no real intentions of doing a symposium, he thought he could buy legitimacy, and it failed. If he had why not simply do it and invite everyone? Because they would not be part of it that is why. 

His lame book that was an appeasement gesture to the legit crowd is a farce. It had no relevance to train any dogs other than what was already known about the people he chose to partake. This did nothing except make him money and give the fans a way to say see he tries to bridge the gap, BS. 

He is not a teen in trouble, he is a grown man and grown men can make choices based on feedback from the world at large, their internal conditioning via culture etcwhich he has had, in abundance. His verbal behaviour, his intellectual behaviour and his actual behaviour interacting with dogs have all been well documented. 
Look at it objectively as a case history instead of a fragmented story that revolves around the moment we all pay attention again. 

He chooses to keep making these choices. He told Bill Oreilly back in 08 I thinkthat all the bites he has endured are Mistakes and that he has made 100s of mistakes. 
As Einstein said doing the same thing and getting the same poor results is insanity, unless the result are what was intended, most people usually learn from mistakes when it involves being injured and putting a dogs life at risk of being euthanized. 

But for him it is Part of the job. Not for the legitimate among us it is not. 

Despite contracts and obligations he could have made many different behavioural choices along the way, remember behaviour has a pathology. His public behaviour, his verbal behaviour and his intellectual behaviour have been very well documented. So far the results show a lack of concern or empathy and little if any intellect. The score card is in is it not? Cesar is not smart, not at all. A dolt in fact, a rube as it were. 

Funny that some think he looked stressed and admittedly at times he did, but he also looked smug and condescending. He also evaded the questions and played politician. There are warning on cigarettes, indeed there are but there is also a warning on the show he hosts, because it is dangerous to do what he does. He is too stupid to even realize his correlation to smoking is a bad one to make for what HE does. 

This is the problem in its most meta analysis, his show is not about helping dogs, or helping people, it is about HIM. That is the biggest red flag of all. 

When he was asked to provide some sort of reasonable explanation as to why he chooses violence with dogs when he does not have to? He waffled as they all do when asked.It is because he has no reason other than that is what I know, and he cannot even say that. It is called having delusions and cognitive dissonances, sociopathic pathologies. 

He wanted to be famous and now he is. That was his goal. Hope it is all he expected. It will not last, and in fact his bosses may be setting him up to fail, ever consider that?

When we stop sitting around on our collective duffs and speak up LOUDLY and with out political correctness softening the truth, and stand up against people that abuse dogs in the name of TRAINING it will stop. Until then it will continue. Consumers are by and large buying it because it has a big spot light> I have met maybe 1 or 2 people that are actually resonating and want to do these abusive things to dogs. 

When you watch that video of him and the dog Holly there are an infinite number of possibilities that could have been implemented to prevent her stress and the resulting bite to his hand. 

When you look at his behaviour in that video, its classic bully behaviour, even after the dog bit him he stood over the dog continuing her stress. People that are embroiled in some sort of dog related stress incident do not do this nor would they want to. They feel bad, they want the dog to feel better, they tend to their wounds. He stood their like a jail warden, blaming a dog for resource guarding her food, a natural instinct that was most likely originally caused by humans and a lack of their understanding. 

This guy is an abuser of dogs period. 

He cannot sue anyone nor can his legal thugs. Unless you walk uo to him and hit him they cannot repeat cannot sue you, It is laughable. 

The reason why he continues unabated is because he and his thugs have made the very people that could put an end to it and the people that signed away their TV rights, as well as the upper echelons of dog-dom, he has made them all cow tow by written contracts or threats of legal action, which he cannot take on anyone. But like all bullies he and his gang have scared some people into inaction. 
Maybe when those people that can step up and do something grow a pair this abuser will be brought down. Until then be ready for cases where dog owners are being lulled into using violence to train by a TV pitchman and his ignorant ways. 

I recently have had a number of inquires where people are verbatim repeating the actions of this abuser. 

In one scenario a 70 year old couple was being bitten in the crotch on the advice of behaviorists that put in writing in a training plan, that they should push their bodies into the dog like a wave crashing, when they want to reclaim their space. 

I tried this in the most gentle of ways with dogs that have zero issue with me and indeed the crotch area is pretty much dead center to a dogs mouth depending on height of person and dog. 

Or how about the latest in a long line of trainers shocking dogs and espousing some leadership crap to people. 

If his show or videos will not convince you that he is a major problem and he should be allowed no leeway at all no matter what at this stage, as it is way past the point of him claiming ignorance. Less it be that he is too ignorant to learn, which is a real possibility, then look through the emails and behaviour histories for correlations to his impact on dog training culture. I am sure you wont have to look hard, as they are all pervasive. 

Anyone that does not take behaviour cases should not comment. Seriously, if you do not sit with people and re work the damage, you have no idea what damage has been caused by this charlatan. 

If you still have any sympathy for him, you get the pious award of the year. 

I say animal abuse charges are in order.


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## npage123 (26 October 2012)

In my opinion, Cesar has got a deep understanding of dog psychology and he can never be labelled as being cruel to them.  He's the one trainer that is capable of rehabilitating dogs with issues in order to create a well balanced, happy pack.  Humans are supposedly the intelligent species, but it seems as if dogs are able to understand him better than some humans!


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## Teaselmeg (27 October 2012)

That is a very interesting article Kateandbasher and puts across well what a lot of people who are against CM's methods know and feel. The Cesar Millan brand makes a massive amount of money as it is, so he is not going to change his methods.  The people behind him are very litigous and will threaten  to sue anyone who puplically speaks out against him. 

Positive, reward based training is not permissive ! It is about building the trust between you and your dog, giving the dog the ability to learn the correct behaviour without fear of being abused.  Those of us using this training do not force feed our dogs with treats,  it is about rewarding the behaviour that you want and redirecting the behaviour that you don't, so the dog understands what you want and will offer that behaviour first.  How often have you seen CM punish a dog for doing something wrong, but not then reward the dog for doing what he did want it to do, how is the dog to learn what you want if you don't let it know ?  

My other big beef with him is he never asks if the dog has been checked by a vet prior to starting his training or what food the people feed it ?  Dogs in pain will be very defensive and my own reactive dog was found to be hypothyroid, a few days on thyroxine made a massive difference to his behaviour. You can pretty much guarantee that the majority of USA dogs he see's are fed on a kibble full of additives. People giving advice on this forum are very quick to say don't feed Bakers etc, why doesn't he ? 

My dogs have rules and boundaries, I don't hug trees or fluffy bunnies, but I chose to look into dog behaviour a bit more because of the dogs I have and their issues. 10 years ago I would probably have been one of those horrified at people not liking CM.  You only have to read one article on dog body language to see what he says is happening is wrong, watch his programmes with the sound off and watch the dog, not his white teeth !

Alan Titchmarsh may only be a gardener turned TV presenter, but he is a dog lover and chose to read and watch some of the articles sent to him prior to CM's appearance and was obviously horrified at what he saw.


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## Alec Swan (27 October 2012)

I find that those who make such derisory comments about CM,  seem to expand their claims,  and out of all proportion.  "Big it up" seems to be the order of the day,  almost as if their claim to experience is as limited as their abilities,  and that given some of the subjects which CM has dealt with,  I would be interested to watch the self proclaimed,  and see just how well they get on.  

I've no doubt that Titchmarsh is a dog lover,  but loving dogs isn't the criteria by which abilities should be assessed,  and my honest view is that he made a fool of himself.  Perhaps,  if instead of attacking CM as he did,  his opinions would have been more valid were he to demonstrate his abilities with those dogs which either through breeding,  or treatment have become,  or are as difficult as they appear to be.  

In-fact for all those who are more experienced or knowledgable than Milan,  show us how good you are,  put up a vid of how you enter a room of a house with a bag of treats,  or a clicker.  Demonstrate your abilities,  and I will most certainly bow with respect.

Alec.


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## MurphysMinder (27 October 2012)

I agree with Alec, I will respect any method of training that works, but so far I have never seen anyone using only positive training sort out a really difficult dog.  The puppy class I took Freya to is run by a trainer I don't respect, but it was the only class available in my area when Freya needed a socialisation class.  There was a dobe pup there who was lovely but very mouthy with other dogs, and the trainers solution was to put her on a harness to stop her flying at other dogs (which of course didn't work) but the the trainer does not allow anyone to use even a half check collar.  When the pup sat at the side of the room waiting her turn, barking at the other dogs, the trainer gave her a chew stick.  Of course this did shut her up, and every week the same behaviour happened, dog barked, dog was given a chew, dog was quiet.  Training - I don't think so!


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## Sandstone1 (27 October 2012)

KatandBasher said:



			There is never any excuse or reason to use punishment, aversives, prong, shock, or anything else when working with dogs. Dogs are not out to be aggressive and cause harm just for the sheer hell of it. Aggression problems are due to fear and using punishment etc isn't going to help that dog feel better at all. Bullying and intimidating a dog until it shuts down in fear isn't helping the dog. You need to find out what the dog is fearful of and work with the dog in a positive way to help it deal with and cope with the fear until it can get over its problem. Dogs look to their owners for help and guidance and using punishment methods only teaches the dog that its owner is unpredictable and not a safe person to be around. Zookeepers can train lions, tigers, rhino, hyena etc using clickers and positive training and these animals are way more dangerous than any pet dog. The domestic dog is the most easily trained animal on the planet so one must question themselves if they have to rely on force and intimidation to just force the dog to shut down rather than actually train the dog. Cesar Millan hasn't a clue what he's doing, all he's interested in is fame and fortune. Just because he played with dogs on his families farm does not make him qualified to work with dogs in a professional capacity. I watch Grey's Amatomy but that doesn't mean I can go and perform brain surgery.
		
Click to expand...

Completly agree with this. CM has no idea about dogs body language, what he calls calm submissive behaviour is in fact the dog shutting down.  People on here call the parrellis for everything and yet CM is doing much the same thing with dogs. Very worrying.


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## TrasaM (27 October 2012)

It's curious that so much of the criticising on CM is focussed on his dealings with aggressive dogs. I've seen him deal with shy and frightened dogs who were scared of just about everything and he showed incredible gentleness and understanding in dealing with them. When he's used E collars he has demonstrated them to the owners by getting them to hold it to reassure them. I've also seen him rehabilitate dogs who would have been euthanised if their behaviour could not be curbed.( nb..when I say "have seen" I mean on his tv programs)  How does any of this make him a bad man? 
Prong collars? As others have commented in this thread, can you condone using harsh bits and gadgets on horses but using gadget with the same principle on a dog, pressure and release, is wrong?


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## Alec Swan (27 October 2012)

itsmylife said:



			....... what he calls calm submissive behaviour is in fact the dog shutting down.  .......
		
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....... and the dog,  "Shutting down",  on occasions is exactly what's needed.  There are those dogs,  and CM often seems to have them before him,  which need to be pushed back into their submissive,  compliant and obedient role,  before they can be slowly lifted or allowed to reach an acceptable plain.  

It's all to do with a balanced relationship,  and if you're unable to accept that,  then we wont make any progress.  As in another thread;  

"Don't tell me how clever you are,  show me,  and if you can take on the difficult,  and on occasions the dangerous,  and turn around those dogs which are unacceptable,  and you can do it with rewards and lots of love and kisses,  then I'm there to learn.  I mean it,  show me how it's done".  

Alec.


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## Dobiegirl (27 October 2012)

I said exactly the same Alec a page or so back.

I can speak from first hand experience having had a very aggressive 40kg adult Dobermann, I wonder how many people on here denigrating CM have seen a truly aggressive dog. My dog wanted to kill other dogs and when you have a dog on the end of the lead lunging all teeth and frothing at the mouth you know indeed its not for the faint hearted.

He came to me as a private rescue having been told he didnt like other dogs which was the under statement of the year. Now I tried the accredited trainers and was kicked out of class, was not offered 1 to 1 just told to go and not come back . I knew this dog wasnt bad he mixed well with friends dogs of both sexes and lived with my other male Dobe in harmony. I was lucky enough to find an ex police dog trainer familar with Dobes who helped turn my dog around.


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## Inthemud (27 October 2012)

vieshot said:



			What is it about his training people don't agree with? Someone commented on a post of a Facebook forum stating 'an owner that isn't a fan of CM is the best start any dog can have' 

I was quite taken aback. I quite like Ceasar and rate him in extreme cases. Don't think that makes me a bad dog owner :-/

So what is it about Ceasar people don't like?
		
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Some fascinating posts on here, but for what they are worth, here are my thoughts.

An early poster mentioned that most of us "civilian" dog owners have easy breeds, with relatively easy problems.

For a situation like that, prong collars etc, etc., are clearly overkill and the " nice, easy dog" owners recoil in horror.

I don't know how effective, all training methods are, because for my easy mutt, treats and a clicker have been sufficient.

I am however quite happy to accept that for more serious problems, stronger methods may be necessary.


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## TarrSteps (27 October 2012)

It's the same with horses.  People are quick to say their horse is "crazy" or "tried to kill" them but it's in fact very rare to come across such situations and, if you've been in one, you recognise the difference immediately. 

I have no real thoughts on CM, other than to think he has some interesting information and experience to contribute, but I do know he works with dogs I'd run a mile from so really, I have no experience to judge!

Out of curiosity (if anyone is still reading this thread ) if "positive only" training is the ideal, why do animals not train each other that way?  (I have a working knowledge of positive reinforcement and negative reinforcement vs punishment.) it is because they are lack the ability to figure out the better way? I am genuinely curious to know people's thoughts.


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## Alec Swan (27 October 2012)

TarrSteps said:



			.......

Out of curiosity (if anyone is still reading this thread ) if "positive only" training is the ideal, why do animals not train each other that way?  .......

...
		
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Because animals don't have the power of reason.

Alec.


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## TarrSteps (27 October 2012)

So the reasonable call is to use only positive reinforcement?

I'm not trying to be dense.  My experience is properly socialised animals know quite a bit about their own kind, whether or not we recognise that as important.  If dogs "train" each other using both positive and negative reinforcement, which they clearly do, why is that then dismissed in favour of "positive only" training and why is someone like CM, who is clearly in the middle ground, automatically wrong?


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## Ranyhyn (27 October 2012)

He's a hot little Mexican.


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## Alec Swan (27 October 2012)

Perhaps I should have said "The power *to* reason".  The power to reason,  otherwise known as intelligence,  is what separates us from animals.  That's what I think anyway,  having thought about it,  for a few years!

Alec.


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## TarrSteps (27 October 2012)

BoolavogueDC said:



			He's a hot little Mexican.
		
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American now.  Although that caused its own controversy.


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## TrasaM (28 October 2012)

TarrSteps said:



			American now.  Although that caused its own controversy.
		
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He's quite proud of being from Mexico 

Boolavogue...if I've got this right, he's coming to the UK.. So I'll be searching out a very difficult dog to see if I can get him to come and sort me out..oops, sorry meant sort it out


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## Sandstone1 (28 October 2012)

Alec Swan said:



			....... and the dog,  "Shutting down",  on occasions is exactly what's needed.  There are those dogs,  and CM often seems to have them before him,  which need to be pushed back into their submissive,  compliant and obedient role,  before they can be slowly lifted or allowed to reach an acceptable plain.  

It's all to do with a balanced relationship,  and if you're unable to accept that,  then we wont make any progress.  As in another thread;  

"Don't tell me how clever you are,  show me,  and if you can take on the difficult,  and on occasions the dangerous,  and turn around those dogs which are unacceptable,  and you can do it with rewards and lots of love and kisses,  then I'm there to learn.  I mean it,  show me how it's done".  

Alec.
		
Click to expand...

I have had a difficult dog, in fact some people did call her aggressive. I had her for ten and a half years. I didnt train her with hugs and kisses, she was handled in a firm and fair way. She did get told off and corrected BUT she was never kicked in the guts, hung from a check chain or put in to the position of shutting down because she was so frightened she didnt know what to do.
CM does not read dogs he bullies them!  I would reccomend people read Turid Rugaas book Calming signals, then watch CM and see what you think.

Why has this man been taken to court in the Usa? Why is he always getting bitten? why do a lot of the dogs he has "helped" go back to their previous behaviour and worse afterwards? Why are trainers and behaviourists seeing a lot of problem dogs who have been trained with his methods?
Any ideas?

I cant stand the man or his methods and find it very scary that people cant see through him. Hes a showman not a dog trainer.


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## TarrSteps (28 October 2012)

TrasaM said:



			He's quite proud of being from Mexico 

Boolavogue...if I've got this right, he's coming to the UK.. So I'll be searching out a very difficult dog to see if I can get him to come and sort me out..oops, sorry meant sort it out 

Click to expand...

It was a bad joke on my part.  As I'm sure you know, there was a bit of drama over his status as he was not legal even after he started to become well known.  Some movie star clients weighed in and, presto, he got his card.  There was some grumbling about one rule for some . . .

None of which I think is anything against the man but it was a bit eye opening with regard to the larger picture as it made very clear that despite the country SO obsessed with immigration/aliens, there's a lot of looking the other way.

Anyhow, nothing to do with dogs.


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## ladyearl (28 October 2012)

I'm not going to read the rest of the post because I'm sure there are lots of pro Cesar folk going on about how the dogs he sorts deserve a good beating etc etc 

I don't like him because I think he doesn't understand or really know what is needed to help dogs get past bad owners. I am sure he occasionally gets good quick fix results and some dogs may remain stunned enough to forever be too scared to step over the mark again, but that, doesn't make a good TV trainer in my view. 

Quick "google" on his american programmes will show you why. Over here and what is shown over here much tamer as he'd get prosecuted here.


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## misterjinglejay (29 October 2012)

I can only speak with knowledge on the breeds I know well eg samoyeds, malamutes and sibes.

They are extremely sensitive dogs and with the exception of sams, fear and confusion can very easily turn to aggression.
 As a result, we never use 'harsh' training methods, alpha rolls (whatever he says, wolves do not force a roll, it is freely offered as a submissive/respectful gesture, and the wolves do not sit on each other when carrying it out), etc and only use positive reinforcement. These dogs, whilst boisterous and excitable, are well behaved, non aggressive, and obedient. We don't stop them being dogs, but don't expect them to be subordinate to us. They are respectful, and quick learning. I teach them 'tricks' to keep their active minds occupied, and that reinforces the respect, as well.

My first samoyed was a rescue, and was terrified of people, to the point of aggression (unheard of in sams!), but we dealt with him in the same way, and he got over it eventually, and became a lovely safe family dog.

Now, I know each dog needs different handling techniques, but after seeing CM alpha roll, and string up sibes, I was concerned for the dogs and their owners in the future. This, IMO, is not the right way to train these dogs - whatever problems they have.


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## TrasaM (29 October 2012)

TarrSteps said:



			It was a bad joke on my part.  As I'm sure you know, there was a bit of drama over his status as he was not legal even after he started to become well known.  Some movie star clients weighed in and, presto, he got his card.  There was some grumbling about one rule for some . . .

None of which I think is anything against the man but it was a bit eye opening with regard to the larger picture as it made very clear that despite the country SO obsessed with immigration/aliens, there's a lot of looking the other way.

Anyhow, nothing to do with dogs. 

Click to expand...

Knew he got in by the back door but didn't realise he is a relatively new citizen. ..guess it's possible to stay under the radar after all.


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