# Riding a horse in an outline - different methods of asking...



## horsemad32 (11 July 2012)

I've been taught one way (which concurs with all the dressage books I've read), yet two friends have been taught another.  They're adamant they're right, as that is what their instructors have said.  

What I was taught:
1) Impulsion first, going forward in a rhythm.
2) Take a contact and ride forwards into it.  Contact needs to be such that if they lower their head onto the bit, it is comfortable and light (yet never a loop in the rein), if they raise their head it's stronger.  Nudges with leg encourage horse to go forward and to lower the head.  
3) If they lock their jaw against you, little twiddles with the fingers to loosen the jaw, get them chewing and thus get the lowering and submission.
4) Once head is down, keep a steady light contact.  If it's too light, or hands unsteady, or too heavy, head will pop up again.

Obv with a trained horse you just ride forwards into a contact and they lower their head - my two do anyway!  They will then follow the contact down to stretch, or collect/extend etc as a result of you altering how much there is.    

The way they were taught:
1) Niggle at the jaw with alternate reins back and forth, no steady contact needed.  Head goes down.  
2) Every time head comes back up, back and forth with the reins again, so in theory get head down with an almost non-existent contact.  
In practice from what I can see, hands always moving, head only kept there by constant reminders from the hands.  Often loops in reins.


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## jools123 (11 July 2012)

all horses are different but i would agree with how you have been taught and for many reasons


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## Tiffany (11 July 2012)

All horses are slightly different although I certainly agree with your friends way of trainging


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## LEC (11 July 2012)

Explaining how to ride into a contact is one of the hardest things because so much is about feel and the way the horse goes. There are many roads to Rome as well.

Personally the horse has to be forwards first. I have been taught not to touch the mouth until they are truly forwards and off your leg. Once they are forwards you pick up the contact in the reins. A consistent contact is vital with still hands because a horse needs to feel confident in it to take it forwards. Rather than a light contact I prefer to think of it as elastic as sometimes a horse can be light in the contact and not true.


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## Polotash (11 July 2012)

I agree with you. How your friends have been taught is why you see so many horses head swinging. My Dutch-trained trainer (does that make sense!) calls the the "English" way of asking, I get the impression they all laugh at us doing this left-right-left-right nonsense on the continent!

Having said this, I vibrate the rein to ask usually, but this does NOT require you to move the hand or go slack-tight-slack on the rein, it's purely a finger vibration. Asking for lots of inside and outside flexion (like you see showjumpers doing) is another method of softening, and one I use on my older (Medium) boy, but again, it is NOT slack-tight-slack and nor does it swing the horses nose!


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## dafthoss (11 July 2012)

Depends on what your riding. The small pony I ride needs to be straightened up first so no falling in or out, continuous line from ears to tail with no body popping attempts, making sure he doesnt quiken or drop off during this process as he tries both. Then making sure you have an even feel along both reins and he doesnt stiffen either side of his jaw or dive to the floor then he drops down nicely, although not consistently yet as when he looses balance we go through the whole process again but it takes less time each time we do it. 

The YP is a totally diffrent customer and I cant really expalin how it works with him, it just does but not for every one, just a chosen few that he likes. 

Which one is easier to ride in an outline, the first as he is much more systematic you sort X Y & Z and it happens, which is easier to ride generally, the YP much less correcting to be done and much more likely to stay on.


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## JFTDWS (11 July 2012)

I'm pretty sure Nuno Oliveira said that reins may be "attracted by gravity" because of their looseness if the horse is in self carriage.  It's my excuse anyway.

Can't stand this sawing nonsense - you can see the rider's hands moving backwards and forwards every stride - vile.  

My lad the more you fiddle or pressure him, the more he'll resist.  He needs to be given space and softness to work into softly himself - with lots of transitions and collection, ensuring he's forward and me remembering how to ride like a normal human - then he'll offer soft, responsive work on a light contact, in a reasonably correct outline (given his conformation and level of training).


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## Tonks (11 July 2012)

I always think about the scales of training, both the German scales of training and those of the Behaviourist, Andrew McClean

1. German: Rhythm, suppleness, Contact, Impulsion, Straightness, Collection

2. McLean: Basic Attempt, , Obedience, Speed control, Line control, Outline control, Engagement, Proof (he can do the above in all environments)

I think the aim is also 'self carriage'.

These two are similar and form a holistic way of training the horse rather than just about fiddle with the fingers, etc.


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## Mondy (12 July 2012)

I find the notion that 'an outline' is equivalent to pulling the head down rather worrying and agree with Tonks.

If the horse is not balanced and supple through the back then no correct outline is forthcoming. I recommend a near-pathological emphasis on the correct rider position and lots of transitions ridden for the seat into a light, steady contact.


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## labruyere (12 July 2012)

not exactly a difficult question...

you want the horse soft, even and level on the end of the reins...

how the bl**dy hell are you ever going to achieve that by sawing at their mouth, twisting their head backwards and forwards, etc...

penny to a pound their instructors are BHS trained through and through and have never competed, certainly not affiliated and certainly not successfully

what you are describing is the difference between

*encouraging *a horse to *work *on a *contact*
*getting *the horse on the *bit*
when I rule the world, anyone attempting the latter will be lined up against a wall....

re:loops in reins ULTIMATELY a horse in true self carriage would work correctly for short periods like this
at the lower levels think of what the judge is looking for 
on a 'give and retake of rein'

...


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## Emma S (12 July 2012)

When I teach working the horse on the bit I explain it as -

Your sat on a tube of toothpaste (which is the energy) and when you can squeeze the toothpaste (energy) out of the tube (horse) you are then going to put the lid on (contact).
Everything comes from behind and you contain the energy, in a light contact. I find this explaination helps when you then need to apply the leg to encourage the head up from going BTV. if you squeeze the tube the lid will give way (head comes back up to the contact).

I don't know if that makesense in writing but it works in teaching!  

I hate seeing see-saw hands and horses with their back end never working through but they look 'pretty' so it must be right


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## hcm88 (12 July 2012)

The second method is just sawing their mouths to force them down rather than riding in an outline. If you're forcing their heads without developing the impulsion and movement from behind first then the horse won't be moving forward correctly. It might 'look' like an outline I.e horses head is down but it's not true and any decent dressage judge will pick up on it!

I see a lot of people self-teaching them to ride a horse 'on the bit' by sawing and it's a shame as it can't be good for the horse at all!


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## Goldenstar (12 July 2012)

Contact like submission is a difficult thing to describe but contact is not just about the mouth it's about the seat the tops of the legs the lower leg and the hands for a long time I thought about contact in terms of the bit but then I realised that it's just part of it like submission it's about all of the riding aids and the whole of the rider and the whole of the horse.


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## siennamum (12 July 2012)

labruyere said:



			not exactly a difficult question...

you want the horse soft, even and level on the end of the reins...

how the bl**dy hell are you ever going to achieve that by sawing at their mouth, twisting their head backwards and forwards, etc...

penny to a pound their instructors are BHS trained through and through and have never competed, certainly not affiliated and certainly not successfully

what you are describing is the difference between

*encouraging *a horse to *work *on a *contact*
*getting *the horse on the *bit*
when I rule the world, anyone attempting the latter will be lined up against a wall....

re:loops in reins ULTIMATELY a horse in true self carriage would work correctly for short periods like this
at the lower levels think of what the judge is looking for 
on a 'give and retake of rein'

...
		
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I've never had a BHS trained instructor tell me to windlass the horses head - nor seen it in a BHS manual or at any BHS college. The BHS people I've  been trained by like Patrick Print or come into contact with like Pammy Hutton or Carole Broad, are rather more classical and would be horrified (and suprised) I expect if they thought any of their pupils were training people to do this.

I suspect in fact it comes from uninformed people who have watched Ben Maher et al asking for exagerrated left right flexion and are imitating it. They are also finding that it works to get the horses head in and don't know any better.

I generally find the easiest way to have a horse work into the hand is on a circle, inside leg - outside hand, they elevate their shoulders then and you get a real feel that they are connected.


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## Jenni_ (12 July 2012)

I was taught not to shoot straight for an outline, but to be 'forward, straight and relaxed' and it would follow.

Horse must be off your leg to the slightest touch, moving of your leg and away from it (increase impulsion & yielding)

straight, horse must stay on its 'train tracks'  - no dipping out through the shoulders, correct bend etc - lot's of circles, especially 10m ones for this.

relaxed... if the jaw is relaxed, the poll can relax, if the poll is relaxed the neck can relax then the back and shoulders can relax (theoretically!)  so vibrations through the fingers to ask them to relax the jaw, ask them to stretch down to loosen the poll / neck - or neck FLEXIONS not head SHAKIING it's amazing the people who think they are riding flexions when really the horse is just moving it's head and is rigid at the poll! 

A consistent and elastic contact is key. if the horse puts its head above / beyond the vertical, the hand should be stationary and firm (not HEAVY) enough to say 'No no, not there' but in the position to regain the elastic contact when the head is in the correct position. Never pulling the head into position, just advising.

Emma S - that's a even better way of teaching it than me! I struggle to explain that... just now I say 'your horse is a Ferrari engine behind you and brakes at the front- but just because it can go 150mph doesn't mean it needs to all the time. Sometimes you need to put on the brakes a bit to control it' which is no way near as good as your explination... which I am now stealing!


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## Polotash (12 July 2012)

I use the toothpaste analogy too, works a treat for getting people to create and contain energy.

The other one which is good for people struggling with contact is to imagine the reins are a baby bird - hold too tight and you'll squash it, too loose and it'll fly away.


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## wench (12 July 2012)

Depends on the horse. I had real problems with my old horse, Henry. He would pretty much do everything nice and balanced, but I could not get him going in a "real" outline. His default setting =was nose poke. 

I tried all sorts of exercises mentioned by people on here/in books - changes of rein, paces, trotting poles. You name it, I did it, nothing worked. Until I went to a dressage instructor, she gave me a couple of exercises to do. Hey presto, horse was suddenly working much better than he was before, and somehow managed to produce this amazing trot he had never done before. Shame he couldnt repeat when we went to a competition, and just had tantrums instead.

However, Henry was a slightly older horse, and was also bone idle. He preferred clawing himself along with his front legs, as it was obviosuly easier than working properly. The exercises I used on Henry would have been no use on a baby horse, and I suspect that Henry had been asked to work properly many years ago in his younger years.

On the flip side, my baby horse (rising 4), I was pretty sure put herself into an outline. I never asked for it, but you could be trotting along in the school, and all of a sudden she would soften, and seem to carry herself differently. I am guessing she was using herself properly, and this was the result.

So to summerise - horses for courses. There's more than one way to skin a cat, and what works for one horse will not work for another.


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## tristar (12 July 2012)

i get the horse to find its own rhythm so it does'nt lose balance, then make it  straight, i can see no point trying to get a crooked horse go any further, i always ride on a light contact, all this only works if the horse is properly broken and moves away from the leg willingly, eventually the horse puts itself on the bit, BUT it needs a still, balanced and correctly positioned rider who does'nt impede the forwardness.

i am amazed at the speed of some dressage horse's trot's, they look like they are in a trotting race, and seem to me they are ploughing on downhill to the detriment of their future ability to collect.


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## Jenni_ (12 July 2012)

I know a dressage rider - good one at that too - who believes in having them work down and on the bit first, then working on impulsion - so back to front.

Hey ho if it works for her - which it obviously does- then who am I to question it as long as it's not cruel.


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## ellie_e (12 July 2012)

JFTD said:



			Can't stand this sawing nonsense - you can see the rider's hands moving backwards and forwards every stride - vile.
		
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AGREE!


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## TrasaM (12 July 2012)

Jenni_ said:



			I know a dressage rider - good one at that too - who believes in having them work down and on the bit first, then working on impulsion - so back to front.

Hey ho if it works for her - which it obviously does- then who am I to question it as long as it's not cruel.
		
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But I wonder what the horse thinks? Does he have a choice?  I watched a dressage lesson some months ago and was admiring the fitness of the rider. The instructor stood in the middle and demanded more of everything..leg rein bend.straightness. ( imagain this being shouted in loud vouce and dutch accent and you'll get the picture ) This went on for about 20 minutes and had been going on for some time before I got there. At the end the poor horse stood with his head down and his next stretched out. He'd been kept in a tight contact throughout the session so no wonder.  It was not a happy sight. I know this may be an extreme example but when a dressage test takes just minutes why should a poor horse who was trying his best to please be kept working for extended periods in this awful position.  I learnt two things that day:- for dressage I'm going to have to get much fitter and that I am not ever going to ride a horse in this manner.  I'm going down the Philippe Karl route now. No more force besides I don't have the biceps for it


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## MandyMoo (12 July 2012)

I think every horse is different, however in my experience i agree with your method.


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## Halfstep (12 July 2012)

There are two traditional schools of thought on contact and acceptance of the bit. On the one hand, there is the German school (broadly described), whereby "balance" comes through motion - hence, send them forward into an elastic, accepting contact, keep them straight with a swinging back and asking the hind leg to step further under the body. The contact is established via the bridge of muscles from the impulsion created off the hind leg over the back to the hand. This is the most common theory that is followed (in better and worse ways ) by most riders in this country. 

Then there is the "French" manner, which is based on the teachings of Baucher to some degree, and is followed today by Phillipe Karl, but also (believe it or not) in some aspects is found in Dutch riding. In this theory, the horse's balance comes first, and movement is second. The horse is taught at the halt to accept the bit, then at the walk, etc. Traditionally, the horses trained in this manner are hotbloods or Iberian horses (as per the Cadre Noir, or Nuno Olivera's school). The horse is encouraged to maintain an upright posture, and there is less an emphasis on the extended gaits and more on the collected. These horses are often allowed to be above the bit because the upright open posture is prized above all. The suppleness is not created through impulsion in the German manner, but through flexions and yielding to the hand (lightness). The modern Dutch emphasis on speed control and using a "baby trot" has a lot more in common with this way of riding than the German. They, however, added roundness of the neck and back in motion to the mix. But a lot of the ideas behind the Sjeff Janssen system can be traced back to Baucher. 

In the end, the goal should be the same: a horse accepting the bit, with open, supple, straight gaits. The head should be slightly in front of the vertical or on the vertical in piaffe. But more importantly than the exact angle of the head (who rides with a protractor???!!), the horse should be even, supple and free in its movement. The problem with incorrectly applied theory (strangle hold on the bit, sawing, or conversely washing line reins and the fear to touch the horses' mouth) is that it creates uncomfortable, unhappy and often ultimately lame horses.


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## Tempi (12 July 2012)

Halfstep said:



			There are two traditional schools of thought on contact and acceptance of the bit. On the one hand, there is the German school (broadly described), whereby "balance" comes through motion - hence, send them forward into an elastic, accepting contact, keep them straight with a swinging back and asking the hind leg to step further under the body. The contact is established via the bridge of muscles from the impulsion created off the hind leg over the back to the hand. This is the most common theory that is followed (in better and worse ways ) by most riders in this country. 

Then there is the "French" manner, which is based on the teachings of Baucher to some degree, and is followed today by Phillipe Karl, but also (believe it or not) in some aspects is found in Dutch riding. In this theory, the horse's balance comes first, and movement is second. The horse is taught at the halt to accept the bit, then at the walk, etc. Traditionally, the horses trained in this manner are hotbloods or Iberian horses (as per the Cadre Noir, or Nuno Olivera's school). The horse is encouraged to maintain an upright posture, and there is less an emphasis on the extended gaits and more on the collected. These horses are often allowed to be above the bit because the upright open posture is prized above all. The suppleness is not created through impulsion in the German manner, but through flexions and yielding to the hand (lightness). The modern Dutch emphasis on speed control and using a "baby trot" has a lot more in common with this way of riding than the German. They, however, added roundness of the neck and back in motion to the mix. But a lot of the ideas behind the Sjeff Janssen system can be traced back to Baucher. 

In the end, the goal should be the same: a horse accepting the bit, with open, supple, straight gaits. The head should be slightly in front of the vertical or on the vertical in piaffe. But more importantly than the exact angle of the head (who rides with a protractor???!!), the horse should be even, supple and free in its movement. The problem with incorrectly applied theory (strangle hold on the bit, sawing, or conversely washing line reins and the fear to touch the horses' mouth) is that it creates uncomfortable, unhappy and often ultimately lame horses.
		
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I have nothing to add apart from great reply!!!!


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## Caol Ila (12 July 2012)

I doubt Boucher would have advocated see-sawing!  I hate seeing people pulling at their horse's faces, trying to get them in a headset, when the horse is disastrously unbalanced and crooked.  Why should the horse accept contact when contact is always this pulling, uncomfortable thing?  When I was teaching, I would make the student (sans horse) hold the bridle or a halter, and I would take a hard contact and start pulling at it the way a lot of riders pull at their horses.  Then I would ask the student if that was pleasant and did it convince them to "give" and go along with me, or would they rather avoid it.  They said it wasn't very nice.  Right, then.  Don't do that to your horse! 

I more or less follow the German scale, rather than the French method explained above.  I suspect this has a lot to do with the types of horses those trainers worked with.  Iberians are naturally upright and light, more so than most other breeds, whereas German warmbloods are less so.   Everything I've ever ridden (warmbloods, draft crosses, quarter horses, TBs, Arabs and Arab crosses) seemed to work best when ridden forward and straight and when the horse found its balance and rhythm, then I'd start thinking about headset.  

I keep my contact soft and elastic and when the horse thinks about coming on the bit, I reward him or her with even more softness and elasticity.  The horse learns that this is the best place to be.  When the horse accepts the contact, I introduce half halts and might start shortening the reins to indicate I want a shorter, more elevated frame.  However, once the horse does what I want, lifting its forehand, I go back to being *really* soft, almost with loose reins and if the horse falls on the forehand again, I give it a little bit of resistance with the reins, while driving with seat and leg.  When horse raises forehand and sits on hind end, I give the reins and stop nagging.  Rinse and repeat, but horses catch on and you need less repeating.  I have found that my horse will hold herself up in self-carriage quite happily with the lightest of contacts and she understands it better than she ever did when I went through my nag-nag-nag half-halt-and-hold period as a teenager.  The release described above makes it clear to her what I want.  If you hold them up, keep pulling, keep driving, there's no release so the poor horse has very little idea of what you're demanding.   

 With youngsters and horses who have been correctly trained from the outset, I have found that they start accepting contact and coming into a frame quite naturally.  With older horses who have decided that contact is one of those things that should be avoided, it's much more complex and awkward problem.


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## Emma S (12 July 2012)

Jenni_ said:



			Emma S - that's a even better way of teaching it than me! I struggle to explain that... just now I say 'your horse is a Ferrari engine behind you and brakes at the front- but just because it can go 150mph doesn't mean it needs to all the time. Sometimes you need to put on the brakes a bit to control it' which is no way near as good as your explination... which I am now stealing!
		
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Help yourself!  I find it makes people ride a lot more forward to the contact, instead of 'getting the head down' and then trying to push the horse forward, which I always like to think of as driving with the handbrake on!


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## elliefiz (12 July 2012)

Caol Ila said:



			With youngsters and horses who have been correctly trained from the outset, I have found that they start accepting contact and coming into a frame quite naturally.  With older horses who have decided that contact is one of those things that should be avoided, it's much more complex and awkward problem.
		
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Completely agree with this. My horse was raced til he was 6 so had developed a very high head carriage with no idea of how to carry himself. When we first bought him he was reschooled by an international irish rider who spends alot of time in Germany receiving dressage training of the highest level. He has also trained with members of the Spanish school of equitation and would be highly regarded for his riding. I am putting this info in because there is no way he would "saw" at a horses mouth. With my racehorse no matter how forward going he was- he refused to accept the contact in walk. It was very alien to him. However the rider giving and taking the reins encouraged him to start softening- once he realised what he had to do it became less necessary to do this- working in an outline helped develop the muscles he needed to carry himself correctly and trotting and cantering in a correct frame was so easy for him. 

He is back in work now after 18 months in a field. He has done some gentle hacking since he has started back and last night my new trainer sat on him for the first time. The horse reverted back to the old "star gazing" trick- walking round resisting all contact and fighting his rider. Trainer widened his hands- as in out towards his knees, and gently gave and took the reins walking around the arena- the transformation was instant- it was if a light switch came on in horse's head and he remembered what he was supposed to be doing. Trainer rode him through a very basic dressage test to see exactly what he could and couldnt do and horse was foot perfect.

I think to say that busy hands are incorrect is abit of a generalisation. I would prefer to see a rider give and take than rigid hands set against a horses mouth and a very unhappy horse. I lunge in a pessoa- the actions of a pessoa on the mouth would be similar to what i imagine a nice pair of hands are, which would be sympathetic and soft and elastic rather than set against the horses mouth.


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## Halfstep (12 July 2012)

Caol Ila said:



			I doubt Boucher would have advocated see-sawing
		
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Who said he would???!!! No one is advocating see-sawing, that is fundamentally incorrect in any "school". 

Anyway, I think the problem lies in a widespread misunderstanding of what "on the bit" means. Even the word "outline" (as in the title of this post) feeds into this misunderstanding. The uneducated think that it is all about the position of a horse's head. So they do anything they can to "bring the head in". See sawing on the reins is a very good way of getting the head in, because the horse does anything to avoid the discomfort! While also probably hollowing or stiffening the back, stepping out with the hind legs and falling flat onto its shoulder! 

Another point: very few riders in this country have the opportunity to learn to ride on an educated horse who can give them the feel of a correct contact. How can you teach a horse what is correct when you've never felt it yourself?


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## Emma S (12 July 2012)

Halfstep said:



			Who said he would???!!! No one is advocating see-sawing, that is fundamentally incorrect in any "school". 

Anyway, I think the problem lies in a widespread misunderstanding of what "on the bit" means. Even the word "outline" (as in the title of this post) feeds into this misunderstanding. The uneducated think that it is all about the position of a horse's head. So they do anything they can to "bring the head in". See sawing on the reins is a very good way of getting the head in, because the horse does anything to avoid the discomfort! While also probably hollowing or stiffening the back, stepping out with the hind legs and falling flat onto its shoulder! 

Another point: very few riders in this country have the opportunity to learn to ride on an educated horse who can give them the feel of a correct contact. How can you teach a horse what is correct when you've never felt it yourself? 

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Completely agree! 
Especially the last paragraph, and I think that it all generally comes back to - if everyone who breaks horses in and rides them away, rode to the same principle i.e. energy from behind, engage the hind legs and over the back to an light contact. We wouldn't have older horses that 'resist' and need alternative exercises to encourage them to work through. 

But it's never going to happen!


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## Caol Ila (12 July 2012)

I didn't mean to imply that you said he did.  That was a poorly written rhetorical device.  But I have experienced trainers/riders who think the French school = pulling the horse onto his hind end with the reins.  Um, no.  

I like the term "on the aids" better.  I totally agree that "on the bit" gets people thinking too much about the horse's head and too little about the rest of the horse.  I read a very good paper on this by Dr. Max Gahwyler and Bettina Drummond where they basically argue that "on the bit," while endemic to the modern dressage world in English-speaking countries, is actually a very poor translation of German and French.  They claim that the exact French equivalent, which would be "sur le mors," appears nowhere in the early French FEI rules and definitions.  The Germans had an extensive and descriptive equestrian vocabulary of their own, so they did not translate the French rulebook but had their own guidelines in "Basic Principles of Riding" and "Advanced Techniques of Riding" by the German Equestrian Federation.  The German equivalent of "on the bit" does not appear in this, either.  

They also point out that early, like seventeenth and eighteenth century early, manuals for dressage recommend training the horse in a cavesson or hackamore and then introducing the bit when the horse progressed to a certain level.


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## Perfect_Pirouette (12 July 2012)

This is a really interesting thread.

I have always been taught if the horse is forward, straight, in a natural rythym, working over its back into a consistent contact, theoretically it SHOULD naturally fall into an 'outline.'

However the above on a lot of horses is easier said than done and each of the above steps can be a battle. BUT, in my experience, once each one of those steps is executed, the result IS that of a horse sitting on its hocks, the front end being light and it swinging down into the contact and feeling lovely and 'light'

The horse I currently have on loan is a prime example. He is 12 and to be honest I am unaware of how much schooling he has had. I have only had him 10 weeks but it has been a battle to get him to work correctly. When he first came he was stiff and unyielding, not at all forward and completely unbalanced in all gaits. I had him checked by physio etc who said there was nothing physical. So I got down to business.

It's only in the last few weeks that he has really started to produce some good work. This is only after me recognising though that he was doing ANYTHING and EVERYTHING to avoid going straight. I literally had to lengthen my stirupps a couple of holes (and I ride quite long anyway) and litterally wrap my legs around the little git, use every single atom of my core strength and lower leg to keep him straight and going forward into the contact. FINALLY then he started to use his back end, his back came up (I was praying he wasn't pooing lol but he wasn't and isn't ) he felt completely straight and dropped into the lovliest, softest outline, allowing me to dictate the roundness and also the pace totally. THIS is this horses best I'm sure. Also, before I don't think I was keeping a consistent enough contact with him and felt like I had to 'give' if you like every couple of strides for him. Whereas these last few weeks it's been a consistent and firm but gentle contact I've been asking him to work into, no with no lenience or leway on my behalf. I just need to get it more consistent and get the canter more balanced and sorted.

But at 12 I wonder has he ever really been made to go completely forward and STRAIGHT?! As my god, he really has all the evasions going. I have to be COMPLETELY on the ball at all times as the second I switch off he pushes/falls out somewhere and we lose the niceness almost instantly. He finds it hard and it's almost alien to him? And at 12 I wonder how much better he can get.

But yes, point of the long winded post was that forward, straight, consistent contact etc DOES achieve a lovely 'outline' and I agree with posters who have said that it is a lot more complex with an older horse, because it really is.


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## Halfstep (12 July 2012)

Summerstars, you make a good point! 

Basically, riding correctly is hard work. The whole, ride your horse forward and straight malarky, only works if you ride properly, sitting correctly, in balance, and using your body in alignment. That is why so many horses can spend years going around in circles with their heads in the air and their backs hollow! Because some riders think that "all" they have to do is send it forward and eventually - by majik - the thing will drop its head.  and all will be sweetness and light. Not at all. You have to use your body and ride the damned horse, and it isn't always pretty at all. And if the rider is crooked, or riding with locked arms, or stiff wrists, or drawn up legs, or whatever, it ain't gonna happen.


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## Caol Ila (12 July 2012)

In what little instruction I've been able to watch (other people having lessons when my horse lived in a stable attached to an indoor ring, mainly), I see very little emphasis on rider position.  And, as Halfstep said, so few people have access to true schoolmasters.  

Most of the issues I have had with my horse were *my* issues.  I can always find new and ingenious ways of blocking her movement, so it's an ongoing journey of discovery: "what am I doing wrong today?"  The horse will tell you if you listen.  

My husband's nieces, age nine and eleven, are in riding lessons and last time I saw them, they were telling me about their lessons.  They said that a lot of the riding school ponies are "naughty" and when the pony is "naughty" and doesn't go, the kids are told to kick it, and keep kicking it.  Here I thought, "there's the problem."  These kids aren't being taught how sensitive horses are; how they can feel smallest adjustment of weight in the saddle or the lightest leg aid.  They're being taught quite the opposite.


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## Mlini (12 July 2012)

Halfstep said:



			You have to use your body and ride the damned horse, and it isn't always pretty at all. And if the rider is crooked, or riding with locked arms, or stiff wrists, or drawn up legs, or whatever, it ain't gonna happen. 

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This is exactly what happens with my boy. If he is ridden correctly, he just drops into an outline when asked. But if not ridden correctly, he will just go on the forehand, lean on your hands and drag his rear end along. He does struggle with the canter still, but that will come with time.

I have to always remember to ride longer, keep heels down, don't grip with my knees, sit up, shoulders back rather than falling into my bad habits of gripping with my knees, slouching, drawing my heels up and nagging with my legs. The difference in the horse is amazing!


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## siennamum (12 July 2012)

Interestingly I gave someone a lesson yesterday who has been really strugglig to get horse to be forwards. She has been trained for many years to sit on her bottom which put her continually off balance and made her hands restrictive, as well as encouraging her to continually grip with her thighs.

She rolled her hips forwards slightly which put her weight over her heels, opened her hips (with difficulty), raised and softened her hands and suddenly the horse is moving and happy to drop it's nose. The smallest tweaks can sometimes make the most enormous difference.

She needs to retrain her muscles now though and it is frustrating tha bad teaching has hindered her riding so much.


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## elliefiz (12 July 2012)

Completely agree with you Summerstars The theory of a horse going forwrds will naturally take it into accepting a contact and moving in the correct frame doesnt always work. In my previous post I mentioned that my horse has been ridden by my trainers. With their correct position and the experience and indeed strength of body that comes with riding horses of all sorts every day for a living, they make it look very easy. For me its a different story. I find it such hard work and if i dont persist and be consistent his head goes up and i lose all control of his shoulders and it feels horrible. Trainer last night took my stirrups down 3 holes and said he would like to go 1 more in future so like you my legs are being really effective in moving horse forward. Its admirable your willing to put the work in. To be honest after my lesson last night Ive decided I need to get back the gym- I am aching today and absolutely worn out!


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## Spookywood (12 July 2012)

Mlini said:



			This is exactly what happens with my boy. If he is ridden correctly, he just drops into an outline when asked. But if not ridden correctly, he will just go on the forehand, lean on your hands and drag his rear end along. He does struggle with the canter still, but that will come with time.
		
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This is exactly the same as my mare.  Our canter is also a work in progress and definitely the better and more balanced I ride (I'm the biggest part of our in progress status!) the better her canter is getting. It is hard work to ride properly but it so so so worth it when you can feel your horse going correctly and carrying themselves. Feels amazing, and no hauling or see sawing of the mouth required!


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## Booboos (12 July 2012)

Halfstep said:



			There are two traditional schools of thought on contact and acceptance of the bit. On the one hand, there is the German school (broadly described), whereby "balance" comes through motion - hence, send them forward into an elastic, accepting contact, keep them straight with a swinging back and asking the hind leg to step further under the body. The contact is established via the bridge of muscles from the impulsion created off the hind leg over the back to the hand. This is the most common theory that is followed (in better and worse ways ) by most riders in this country. 

Then there is the "French" manner, which is based on the teachings of Baucher to some degree, and is followed today by Phillipe Karl, but also (believe it or not) in some aspects is found in Dutch riding. In this theory, the horse's balance comes first, and movement is second. The horse is taught at the halt to accept the bit, then at the walk, etc. Traditionally, the horses trained in this manner are hotbloods or Iberian horses (as per the Cadre Noir, or Nuno Olivera's school). The horse is encouraged to maintain an upright posture, and there is less an emphasis on the extended gaits and more on the collected. These horses are often allowed to be above the bit because the upright open posture is prized above all. The suppleness is not created through impulsion in the German manner, but through flexions and yielding to the hand (lightness). The modern Dutch emphasis on speed control and using a "baby trot" has a lot more in common with this way of riding than the German. They, however, added roundness of the neck and back in motion to the mix. But a lot of the ideas behind the Sjeff Janssen system can be traced back to Baucher. 

In the end, the goal should be the same: a horse accepting the bit, with open, supple, straight gaits. The head should be slightly in front of the vertical or on the vertical in piaffe. But more importantly than the exact angle of the head (who rides with a protractor???!!), the horse should be even, supple and free in its movement. The problem with incorrectly applied theory (strangle hold on the bit, sawing, or conversely washing line reins and the fear to touch the horses' mouth) is that it creates uncomfortable, unhappy and often ultimately lame horses.
		
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Once again completely spot on! Very clearly exlained!


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## TrasaM (12 July 2012)

Caol Ila said:



			My husband's nieces, age nine and eleven, are in riding lessons and last time I saw them, they were telling me about their lessons.  They said that a lot of the riding school ponies are "naughty" and when the pony is "naughty" and doesn't go, the kids are told to kick it, and keep kicking it.  Here I thought, "there's the problem."  These kids aren't being taught how sensitive horses are; how they can feel smallest adjustment of weight in the saddle or the lightest leg aid.  They're being taught quite the opposite.
		
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Sadly it's not just the little kids who are taught in this way.  My first few months were the same. The poor horses were so used to it that it made little difference. So RI says 'squeeze with calf' nothing happens. Harder ..still nothing then give it a good ole boot! Synchronising kicks and learning rising trot is a difficult skill to master. Frankly by the end I had no idea what exactly my legs were supposed to do. Luckily I was then allocated a horse who responds to the lightest touch so he soon sorted me out.


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## TrasaM (12 July 2012)

Halfstep said:



			Who said he would???!!! No one is advocating see-sawing, that is fundamentally incorrect in any "school". 


Another point: very few riders in this country have the opportunity to learn to ride on an educated horse who can give them the feel of a correct contact. How can you teach a horse what is correct when you've never felt it yourself? 

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  I have to know how something is supposed to feel so I can register it in my muscles and brain.  I had a dressage lesson some months back and the horse immediately spotted that he had an idiot on his back so of course he did not play along.  Half way through the lesson he forgot (I think) who was riding him and did the loveliest trot and canter for me. Until then I had no idea what exactly it would feel like.


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## Donnie Darco (12 July 2012)

Forgive me if I'm being thick but ...

Anyone can make a horse drop its head into a false outline by fiddling with the reins (my friends horse will pop his head in a "pretty outline" position by this method - but he's not actually working from behind)

Unless the horse is working properly from behind - bringing hocks underneath, rounding the back, working the abdominal muscles - it cannot be called a true outline


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## Perfect_Pirouette (12 July 2012)

Donnie Darco said:



			Forgive me if I'm being thick but ...

Anyone can make a horse drop its head into a false outline by fiddling with the reins (my friends horse will pop his head in a "pretty outline" position by this method - but he's not actually working from behind)

Unless the horse is working properly from behind - bringing hocks underneath, rounding the back, working the abdominal muscles - it cannot be called a true outline 

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Yup, hence all the posts in this thread stating that it's not just a 'pretty head carriage' or fiddling with the reins that achieves a true 'outline' it comes from a foundation of many things including, forwardness (I would count working from behind in this as well as it meaning on the aids) straightness, balance, rhythm etc.


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## madhector (12 July 2012)

See, I tend to teach a horse be accept the bit, this can be in halt to start with, then you can naturally move forwards to working forwards to a soft contact, obviously if you have issues with impulsion then you cannot achive this so they would have to be corrected first.

I like to be able to pick up the reins of any horse I train and instantly have a soft feel, without having to work at it. The horse then naturally works forwards into it as there is no resistance or confusion.


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## Donnie Darco (12 July 2012)

SummerxStarsx said:



			Yup, hence all the posts in this thread stating that it's not just a 'pretty head carriage' or fiddling with the reins that achieves a true 'outline' it comes from a foundation of many things including, forwardness (I would count working from behind in this as well as it meaning on the aids) straightness, balance, rhythm etc.
		
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Yeah sorry I rattled my own cage and then read all the replies!!!  doh!!!


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## tristar (12 July 2012)

i think teaching a horse first to accept the bit in halt is dangerous ground, for me the outline should be the result of impulsion and is only possible during motion.

so many times the rider needs to change, as recently shown by a 19 year old horse who had never in her life been round, always hard and above the bit, ridden differently and suddenly her tremendous impulsion freed by the rider resulted in her offering a super outline with no lose of activity, in fact it was enhanced  and unleashed if anything.


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## Princess Jess (12 July 2012)

This is such an interesting thread and I think I'm kind of caught between the two methods.
I was always taught that without impulsion the horse will never work in an outline/round/on the bit etc. yet at the same time I was taught feel first in halt, walk, trot then canter which almost seems to contradict the principles of having the horse forward and straight first.
I often feel if I'm having a lesson with an instructor there is pressure to achieve something and the horse should be on the bit as soon as possible. I've had lessons where we enter the arena walk on a loose rein for a few minutes then immediately I'm told to take up a contact and 'put the horse' on the bit, which to me doesn't seem right, I prefer to work in for a good 10-15mins in all paces with lots of transitions before really asking the horse to soften. I often find if you ask too strongly too soon the horse locks against you and you'll spend the rest of the session persuading it to relax again, where as if you give the horse time to work in they soften naturally without you having to fight them.
I also think, as has already been mentioned, the vast majority of people learn feel on horses which aren't school masters (I know I certainly did!) and so often the sawing or over active hands develop as a way to persuade a horse to work in an outline when it would normally fight to go round with its head in the air, which in time means the horse doesn't respond to a lighter contact causing it to almost need the fiddling hands to encourage it to soften and so the circle continues


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## Molly'sMama (12 July 2012)

Hmmm well I had a lesson with a well-known instructor with a boy my age on a badly schooled cob and he recommended he half halted on the reins to encourage his outline but not sawing 




			penny to a pound their instructors are BHS trained through and through and have never competed, certainly not affiliated and certainly not successfully
		
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Yes,my instructor is a successful competitor and doesnt really rcommend it, she prefers I my mare working soft and round first and a true outlin will follow.


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## TrasaM (12 July 2012)

tristar said:



			i think teaching a horse first to accept the bit in halt is dangerous ground, for me the outline should be the result of impulsion and is only possible during motion.

so many times the rider needs to change, as recently shown by a 19 year old horse who had never in her life been round, always hard and above the bit, ridden differently and suddenly her tremendous impulsion freed by the rider resulted in her offering a super outline with no lose of activity, in fact it was enhanced  and unleashed if anything.
		
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The ground work and also the repeat of same exercises in walk and trot is to get the horse to relax its jaw a d tberegore its neck. The bit is pulled upwards towards the poll not back against it's mouth.  Likewise half halts and halts are also an upwards action from the elbow / hand. PK describes the pulling back action and applying forwards aids simultaneously as riding a bike with the brakes on. I think I've got that right but if nit I'm sure someone will correct me


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## siennamum (12 July 2012)

TrasaM said:



			The ground work and also the repeat of same exercises in walk and trot is to get the horse to relax its jaw a d tberegore its neck. The bit is pulled upwards towards the poll not back against it's mouth.  Likewise half halts and halts are also an upwards action from the elbow / hand. PK describes the pulling back action and applying forwards aids simultaneously as riding a bike with the brakes on. I think I've got that right but if nit I'm sure someone will correct me 

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My current youngster dislikes contact against the bars of his mouth and tongue. I have had to adjust my contact to ensure I am using the bit in an upwards direction to act on the sides of his lips which he is perfectly happy with. It's been a real education.


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## Chloe..x (12 July 2012)

I teach it as 
1) Straight
2) On a rhythm
3) then going forward into a steady contact

I like to thin as the impulsion coming from the inside leg into the outside. As such the horse "has the inside rein" the rider has the outside. I find it extremely difficult to teach as most people won't know what they should be feeling/asking for. I often find me demo'ing to the rider to give them an idea helps


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## Jingleballs (12 July 2012)

Very interesting thread and something I'm pondering at the moment.

It seems that the more I try and ask for softness/self carriage the less likely I am to get it.

If I ignore all I've been taught and ride my horse with a very soft contact and slightly longer rein he will swing and relax and soften BUT if find he still has problems bending and the second you ask for bend he'll tense up.

I've had several instructors over the years - my current eventing instructor encourages me to buzz or shake the rein when he locks his jaw - basically it's an exaggerated version of sponging the rein as that seems to mild for my horse to acknowledge.

My dressage instructor has me keep my hands wider and lower and focus on bending him by opening my hand out wide and almost to my knee and when the horse yields correctly I give him the rein back and a scratch on the neck to tell him that's what I want - this seems to work intermittently and I'm finding that once he does yield, when I go to ask again he tenses up even more which suggests that he's not understanding what I'm asking for.

My jumping instructor on the other hand, when we are doing our warm up on the flat, shouts at me for having my hands low and wide as she says we are just giving the shoulder somewhere to escape.

I find the whole thing very confusing and after a horrendous schooling session tonight I am feeling a bit lost with it all.

This thread is definitely helping though!


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## SpottyTB (12 July 2012)

I'm having this issue with my mare atm, and i'm sad to say that i've slipped into the "sawing" method- however i'm fully aware i have and i'm stopping/getting lessons to stop... 

The way my FIL is teaching me, is the outside rein is to slow the trot down - and i have to KEEP it slow but not lifeless, slow with lots of impulsion.. 
Inside leg and inside rein ask for the slight bend and to come down on the bit. 
Inside rein is just asking, *politely*, shouldn't be able to see obvious movement, it's just a little "niggle" at the rein with plenty of inside leg to encourage the head carriage to come down and in...

I'm getting it out of her a few times, but it's hard work.. it's nice when she goes go down and in, as her stride lengthens and she feels more relaxed!


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## AatHarv (13 July 2012)

siennamum said:



			My current youngster dislikes contact against the bars of his mouth and tongue. I have had to adjust my contact to ensure I am using the bit in an upwards direction to act on the sides of his lips which he is perfectly happy with. It's been a real education.
		
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Siennamum... This is really interesting as my baby seems to be really fussy with the contact, has a small mouth, and just dislikes it as you say. Annnd because he's my baby I make excuses for him so it could slightly be that too, but anyway... When you say you've 'adjusted your contact', how do you mean?


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## siennamum (13 July 2012)

AatHarv said:



			Siennamum... This is really interesting as my baby seems to be really fussy with the contact, has a small mouth, and just dislikes it as you say. Annnd because he's my baby I make excuses for him so it could slightly be that too, but anyway... When you say you've 'adjusted your contact', how do you mean?
		
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All I am doing is carrying my hands higher & keeping them well in front of me , especially when asking for flexion and if he comes above the bit. The other thing I do to give an aid which is as light as possible is turn my inside hand over so my thumb is pointing into the centre.

I have spent ages trying to find a bit which he is happy with and he is very 'less is more', so either a simple french link or single link, with an eggbut and chunky mouthpiece.


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## Supanova (13 July 2012)

Very interesting and informative thread!

I agree with all those that have said that the horse should be straight and working from behind and then it will naturally come into an outline, but I also agree with those that have said its horses for courses.  I have two horses, one is a 5 year old who i have had since she was just broken.  She is definitely in the first camp and will come into a lovely outline if i get her working correctly from beind and straight - no need at all for fiddling with the reins.  However, my other horse is a 10 yr old who i have had since she was 6.  In the first few years, i tried to teach her to be forward into the contact, but we weren't making any progress.  Yes she would go forward into a light contact but she wouldn't come up through her back and just ran round on her forehand, gawping at everything around her.  Recently i have started taking a much stronger contact and doing lots of flexing with my hand and the results have been dramatic.  Yes, it feels a little like i am a puppet master and it doesn't seem classically correct, but she comes up through her back and goes into a correct outline and I can then lighten and soften the rein and push her forward into it.  Without the use of the hand I would never get this result.  Perhaps this is because she wasn't taught correctly from the outset and there have been a few physical niggles along the way, but it does say to me that there are different methods for different horses.

On a final point, i think the most effective way to get a horse into an outline is to use your core and nothing to do with either hand or leg.  I have been reading Centered Riding by Sally Swift and simply thinking of centering yourself at your core and breathing correctly has a major impact on both my horses and makes them go in an outline.  As others have said, the seat and balance of the rider is so important to the overall picture.


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## kerilli (13 July 2012)

Supanova said:



			On a final point, i think the most effective way to get a horse into an outline is to use your core and nothing to do with either hand or leg.  I have been reading Centered Riding by Sally Swift and simply thinking of centering yourself at your core and breathing correctly has a major impact on both my horses and makes them go in an outline.  As others have said, the seat and balance of the rider is so important to the overall picture.
		
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This. I think the way you use and control (and can actually sense what you are doing with) your seat, legs and hands (in that order) are absolutely crucial. it's not what you do as much as how you do it, or at least 50/50, i suspect.
As for what I do, it varies depending on the horse's age, build, experience, previous training, natural elasticity and athleticism (how much one can ask), and temperament. It's pretty impossible (and unfair) to say 'i do it like this' because that might not suit a particular horse at all at that time.  e.g. for a mare who overbends, flexes at poll but doesn't give at jaw, and dips behind the contact (and i'm sure a lot of people would think looks great because her neck is beautifully arched, wow, she's 'on the bit!!!') my trainer had a very very specific answer (just typed it out for someone on my current thread), but for a horse who pokes its nose, the response would be pretty different.


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## Caol Ila (13 July 2012)

To those who said it's not easy to ride a horse straight and balanced.... yes, I know!  Far easier said than done.  A lot of the issues I have had with Gypsum over the years come from the fact that she is a big, bouncy mover and I find that my body wants to lock up in all kinds of weird and useless ways, kind of a defensive reaction to being jolted around by her huge trot.  Plus, while she brings her hind legs all the way under her body naturally, she's a bit on the long side so there's a lot of horse that needs to be contained.  The only way forward, really, is to be bloody fit, strong enough to maintain your position in spite of all the bouncing, but at the same time, still following and flowing with the horse's movement.  She also has the view that if I'm bracing, she doesn't go.  I think some days she says, "You're riding like crap.  No engagement for you."  

BabyBear, I find it worrying that you said this: "If I ignore all I've been taught and ride my horse with a very soft contact and slightly longer rein he will swing and relax and soften...."  Is a soft contact just not taught these days?!  

 In this thread and your other one asking about bend, you have not said anything about using the inside leg or your outside aids.  Just talked about using the reins.  When I ask a horse for bend, I think of it bending its ribcage around my inside leg and bringing its inside hind leg underneath its body.  In the pic below, you can see that her inside hind is nearly on the same track as her outside fore.  







That is where bend comes from and it's your inside leg which engages the horse's inside hind leg.  Your outside rein is steady and has slightly more contact than the inside rein.  Your outside leg tells the horse where the edge of the circle should be. The inside rein asks for a little bit of flexion in the jaw but should not be your primary aid.  This is why, on US lower level dressage tests at any rate, there is a movement where you have to move your inside hand forward so the rein is loose for three or four strides while on a twenty meter circle.  It demonstrates that the horse is correctly bent into the outside aids and not being pulled around by the inside rein.

It is very much part of the straightness and engagement issues that have been discussed earlier in this thread, as bend allows the horse to be straight and engaged while on a curving line (that's why you do it).   If you bring the head around alone, you make the horse crooked and unbalanced.  

Also, make sure you're not getting in his way.  If you are bracing in your back, your hips, your arms, anywhere, you can block that inside hind from coming through.  This can = confused and grumpy horse, since you're asking him to do something, but another part of your body (unbeknownst to you) is saying, "No."  Supanova mentioned Sally Swift's Centred Riding...  I second this recommendation.  She used to give clinics a barn I used to board at.  Very rider focused, thinking about how your body influences a horse, in negatives and positive ways.  Can we really expect our horses to go in balanced self-carriage when we're falling all over the place?  

When I've ridden greenies, I have used the opening rein to suggest flexion through the jaw.  Not pulling, just bringing my hand to the inside as though opening a door.  Pat, release, when the horse does it.  By the time I'm riding said greenie, he's had a lot of groundwork and has a solid of grasp of yielding to pressure, so this is not a challenging lesson for him.  Then turns on the forehand, serpentines, and leg yields, both on the straight and on a circle, are some of the things I use to show the horse what the inside leg means.   I would not ride with my hands wide and low.  While you can force a horse to put its head down when you do this, I think it sends confusing signals to the horse and it also changes your centre of gravity and balance -- throws you forward, makes the horse fall on its forehand and worst of all, you lose any ability to have a soft, following contact.  

Earlier in the thread, someone mentioned teaching the horse to soften while standing still.  I do this as well.  I think it's my natural horsemanship background coming through.  I think it just solidifies the whole soften to hand concept.  However, unless the horse is fit and trained, I don't ask them to move off in a frame.  Usually, just before I dismount at the end of a ride, I ask the horse to soften.  These days I ask for softening into a rein back.  Then I jump off.  Horse is now rewarded.


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## Halfstep (13 July 2012)

It might be worth looking at different types of contact and how it reflects in the body of the horse, and in the level of training. 
These are all of me, and I'm in no way putting myself up as an ideal!!! Just some examples.

First - warm up photo on an Advanced level horse, stretching towards the bridle, face just in front of the vertical, in balance but not in collection: 






And in trot, same idea, horse is straight and taking the contact forward: 






The same horse in collected trot in a more uphill frame:






and in competition frame:







And finally, to compare, the same horse as a 5 yr old at Novice level:






I'd argue that the horse is on the bit in all these photos, but the "outline" is very different at each point, which is reflected in what the body of the horse is doing and its level of training and musculature.


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## kerilli (13 July 2012)

Caol Ila said:



			BabyBear, I find it worrying that you said this: "If I ignore all I've been taught and ride my horse with a very soft contact and slightly longer rein he will swing and relax and soften...."  Is a soft contact just not taught these days?!  

Click to expand...

depends who you go to... but mostly, no. it seems to be a very strong, holding contact that's taught generally, and also that, bluntly, we see winning at top levels.
i taught someone years ago who didn't have great balance and, when she lost her balance, i kept saying 'grab the mane not the reins!'... she told me her previous instructor (who had just won a Young Instructor of the Year award) was adamant that if your contact is intermittent because of rider balance issues, it is much better for the horse if it is too strong than too soft. I was gobsmacked - basically saying it's fine to balance yourself with the reins. HOW can a decent seat and balance ever be developed like that... ?! yet this instructor was lauded!


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## siennamum (13 July 2012)

Babybear said:



			Very interesting thread and something I'm pondering at the moment.

It seems that the more I try and ask for softness/self carriage the less likely I am to get it.

If I ignore all I've been taught and ride my horse with a very soft contact and slightly longer rein he will swing and relax and soften BUT if find he still has problems bending and the second you ask for bend he'll tense up.

I've had several instructors over the years - my current eventing instructor encourages me to buzz or shake the rein when he locks his jaw - basically it's an exaggerated version of sponging the rein as that seems to mild for my horse to acknowledge.

My dressage instructor has me keep my hands wider and lower and focus on bending him by opening my hand out wide and almost to my knee and when the horse yields correctly I give him the rein back and a scratch on the neck to tell him that's what I want - this seems to work intermittently and I'm finding that once he does yield, when I go to ask again he tenses up even more which suggests that he's not understanding what I'm asking for.

My jumping instructor on the other hand, when we are doing our warm up on the flat, shouts at me for having my hands low and wide as she says we are just giving the shoulder somewhere to escape.

I find the whole thing very confusing and after a horrendous schooling session tonight I am feeling a bit lost with it all.

This thread is definitely helping though!
		
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Maybe your horse just needs a little more 'hand holding'. It sounds as if he is nice and soft and relaxed till you actually pick up a contact and ask for connection, then you get resistance. 
In your place I would work on circles, create a firm outside rein, carried reasonably high, and open your inside hand to indicate bend, then turn your hand over so your fingernails are pointing upwards, thumb in - not completely just half way. I would't really soften the outside rein masively, not a strong contact. but imagine if horse were in side reins, he would have to soften to them not the other way round.
I would then work on circles and be insistent till horse softens when that happens I would soften a little in return, so he understands. Of courseyou have to be insistent they are off the inside leg, and forwards from the outside leg.


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## Jingleballs (13 July 2012)

kerilli said:



			depends who you go to... but mostly, no. it seems to be a very strong, holding contact that's taught generally, and also that, bluntly, we see winning at top levels.
i taught someone years ago who didn't have great balance and, when she lost her balance, i kept saying 'grab the mane not the reins!'... she told me her previous instructor (who had just won a Young Instructor of the Year award) was adamant that if your contact is intermittent because of rider balance issues, it is much better for the horse if it is too strong than too soft. I was gobsmacked - basically saying it's fine to balance yourself with the reins. HOW can a decent seat and balance ever be developed like that... ?! yet this instructor was lauded!
		
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Sorry - perhaps my post wasn't clear - none of my trainers advise a strong contact - on the contrary it's all about having the elbows bend and being elastic with the rein while maintaining a contact.

What I meant was if I leg my boy have an longer than ideal rein and am not riding him up to the contact as such he is happier and therefore more relaxed but this does lead to comments such as frame to long or not working up into the bridle etc.

Re use of legs - I think of inside leg pushing into outside hand and I would never focus on using the hands along without the impulsion and bend generated from my legs.


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## siennamum (13 July 2012)

kerilli said:



			depends who you go to... but mostly, no. it seems to be a very strong, holding contact that's taught generally, and also that, bluntly, we see winning at top levels.
i taught someone years ago who didn't have great balance and, when she lost her balance, i kept saying 'grab the mane not the reins!'... she told me her previous instructor (who had just won a Young Instructor of the Year award) was adamant that if your contact is intermittent because of rider balance issues, it is much better for the horse if it is too strong than too soft. I was gobsmacked - basically saying it's fine to balance yourself with the reins. HOW can a decent seat and balance ever be developed like that... ?! yet this instructor was lauded!
		
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I thinksome  people are confusing a light contact with long reins (not you K) but it isn't uncommon for people to go around with loopy reins thinking their horse is lovely and light in front. I think a  soft contact comes from the elbows/shoulders and from what Babybear is saying her horse is fine when she has little contact and has issues when she takes up a contact.


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## Littlelegs (13 July 2012)

Put far more eloquently than me but I agree with all halfstep has said & several others. Although different horses do require different methods, I haven't yet met one that benefited from see-sawing visibly back & forth. And maybe not at pro level, but ime about 90% of contact issues for the average rider & horse stem from the horse not actually moving forwards enough for the contact & incorrect riding. And I'm not just talking about at riding school level either. There seems to be little emphasis on a correct position or the horse moving forward, & far too much importance being attached to what you do with your hands. Too many people seem to forget the very old saying that only 1/3 of the horse is in front of you.
And don't get me started on people trying to replicate a competition position with the horses hocks in the next county.


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## SpottedCat (13 July 2012)

I think the problem with threads like this is that they advocate a 'light' contact, which less experienced riders take to mean that having a horse going forwards with it's nose miles in front of the vertical, its hocks trailing and a hollow back is in some way preferable to having a firmer contact on the reins and giving the horse something to work into - it's not, and it is just as damaging as 'pulling the head in'.


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## Halfstep (13 July 2012)

SpottedCat said:



			I think the problem with threads like this is that they advocate a 'light' contact, which less experienced riders take to mean that having a horse going forwards with it's nose miles in front of the vertical, its hocks trailing and a hollow back is in some way preferable to having a firmer contact on the reins and giving the horse something to work into - it's not, and it is just as damaging as 'pulling the head in'.
		
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This.


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## Caol Ila (13 July 2012)

SpottedCat said:



			I think the problem with threads like this is that they advocate a 'light' contact, which less experienced riders take to mean that having a horse going forwards with it's nose miles in front of the vertical, its hocks trailing and a hollow back is in some way preferable to having a firmer contact on the reins and giving the horse something to work into - it's not, and it is just as damaging as 'pulling the head in'.
		
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 I see quite a lot of people riding with a *harsh* and heavy contact and no give, which stresses out the horse and teaches them to evade.  I prefer a horse who is relaxed and in front of the vertical on no or little contact (which is how you'd ride a working cow horse, or your trail pony, say) than one who is being pulled in.   While a hollow back and a strung out horse isn't ideal, everyone will go through a phase of riding horses that way as no one is born knowing how to collect a horse.  However, I'd rather not see the horse get a hard mouth in process.  I'm sure you would agree that while a firm but soft contact is needed in some cases, a bracing, heavy one is counterproductive.


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## KatB (13 July 2012)

Completely agree with spottedcat, and halfstep. I see more people who think they're being "soft" and so dropping the contact and just annoying the horse into dropping its head. Actually, taking a still and consistent but elastic contact is much softer on the horse and gives it something to work towards.
Equally, the "forward" brigade who will chase the horse round and actually pushes it onto the forehand, but gets the head lowering effect which means it must be correct.... Riding in balance I think is the main principle people struggle with....


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## Perfect_Pirouette (13 July 2012)

I think the problem with these types of threads is there are so many different methods/ways of doing things stated, it can lead to confusion and inconsistency.

I think that having fundamental objectives that have to be achieved in order to help form the outline i.e forwardness, straightness, impulsion, balance etc is great and can probably be accepted as universal. BUT ways in which to achieve the above will vary for each horse and contact is one of these things IMO. Give one horse a lighter contact and it may accept it graciously, give another and it may abuse it. Likewise, one horse may not like a heavier contact and try and evade, another may get confidence from it. However with regards to contact, surely if a rider has their hands carried out  sufficiently in front of them (with no loops in the rein) and has a nice bent soft elbow (no chicken wings) and forearms to a steady hand then this should be okay for the majority of horses? Surely with the above and all the above fundamentals in place, see-sawing should not need to occur?


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## Lucyad (13 July 2012)

I find this really interesting.  I had trouble with my horse when more conventionally taught to push him on from behind while contain the energy via the reins, however this lead to him leaning on the contact, whihc got heavier and heavier as he gravitated onto his forehand.  I apprecaite that with exercises to lighten his forehand such as leg yeilding and shoulder in etc. the contact and 'outline' got better, but using this proces, despite 'moulding' him into the corect way of going, he never really 'clicked' what I was asking him to do, so each time I would have to spend ages working using laeral moves, transitions etc. to acheive the lightness, which would then not be carried through into the next session / movement.  A more experiences, educated, sensitive rider could use subtle releases, I am sure, to reinforce lightness, without loosing it, however for me this was difficult.

My 'lightbulb' moment was when an instructor got me to separate the aids, working firstly at halt, asking for softness and offering a complete release when it was acheived.  Using this 'one thing at a time' approach my horse realised that if he softens to the hand, the hand will remain soft.

We can now do this at walk and trot, so to ask for an outline (when he is already working well forward), I can just flex my fingers and give a sponge on the rein, then soften. I combine this with a nudge with my inside leg asking for a more active hind, and for him to 'lift' his back.  I also seem to get a good response if I sort of open my pelvis and almost give him space for his back to lift, if you know what I mean (this is pretty subtle, but seems to really improve how he is going)

Unforunately we are still a work in progress in canter - we just don't have the balance yes to acheive the same level - we are still working on me managing to slow the canter down enough before thinking about the front end too much!

Also unforunately, horse now resolutely refuses to put up with my hand if they aren't soft - thather than putting up with being pulled into an 'outline' as I used to try to do, he will tell me in no uncertain terms to 'bog off!'  This results in hilarious dressage tests, when he can feel any tension that I might be carrying (hard to maintain a soft contact when your hands are shaking!).

When we get it right though, the feeling of the trot when he is holding himself up, rather than me doing it, is so lovely and effortless.  Just need to get it more consistant now, and at all paces.


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## kerilli (13 July 2012)

Caol Ila said:



			I see quite a lot of people riding with a *harsh* and heavy contact and no give, which stresses out the horse and teaches them to evade.  I prefer a horse who is relaxed and in front of the vertical on no or little contact (which is how you'd ride a working cow horse, or your trail pony, say) than one who is being pulled in.   While a hollow back and a strung out horse isn't ideal, everyone will go through a phase of riding horses that way as no one is born knowing how to collect a horse.  However, I'd rather not see the horse get a hard mouth in process.  I'm sure you would agree that while a firm but soft contact is needed in some cases, a bracing, heavy one is counterproductive.
		
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This, exactly. And when one thinks of the damage a misused bit can do to the bars, palate etc, surely it's a no-brainer to aim for lighter rather than stronger?
also, i do not really see how riding a horse loosely (maybe with its nose poking out etc) does damage - any more than the horse trotting loose around the field with nose poking does it damage. but trying to yank, lever, pull it into a position where its neck is curved and its nose is in (and let's face it, this is what a LOT of people seem to be happy with) is surely never going to be beneficial, is it?
of course the ideal - engaged hindquarters, soft back, ring of muscles working, horse stretching forwards to contact etc etc - is always going to be beneficial, but what i'm saying is that of the two main approaches to it, surely the lighter one does less damage if misapplied, mistimed etc...


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## siennamum (13 July 2012)

To me the issue when a horse is going on a nice loose contact in a relaxed frame and even if it is swinging along to a degree, is that that _can_ mean there is no submission. So my reading of Babybear's issue is that her horse resists when she does pick up a firmer contact and ask for engagement. I may be reading that wrong BB.


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## SpottedCat (13 July 2012)

kerilli said:



			also, i do not really see how riding a horse loosely (maybe with its nose poking out etc) does damage - any more than the horse trotting loose around the field with nose poking does it damage.
		
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Because a horse isn't designed to be sat on! It simply has a convenient place for a saddle  But anatomically, the weight is carried by muscles/tendons/ligaments due to the nature of the skeletal structure of the horse - when it is at liberty in the field it isn't carrying any extra weight, and it doesn't have pressure on parts of it that were never designed to have pressure on them. Unless it engages and uses its muscles correctly (and by this I mean correctly in the sense of what is required to minimise the impact of carrying a rider), there is a very much increased chance of injury/pain simply because of how they are constructed anatomically. It's their bad luck that they happen to be a convenient size and shape to be ridden, and are temperamentally suited to domestication and training.


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## SpottedCat (13 July 2012)

BTW, and a bit off topic, but if people are interested in how a horse is put together (in actual real life - not a painted or horse or drawings), this series of dissection slides is fascinating! http://www.vet.cornell.edu/oed/horsedissection/


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## Jingleballs (13 July 2012)

siennamum said:



			To me the issue when a horse is going on a nice loose contact in a relaxed frame and even if it is swinging along to a degree, is that that _can_ mean there is no submission. So my reading of Babybear's issue is that her horse resists when she does pick up a firmer contact and ask for engagement. I may be reading that wrong BB.
		
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No you've got it right.  He's happy and relaxed and swingy when he gets to pus his nose where he wants it but once you try and collect him a bit he tenses up or can lose impulsion.


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## Caol Ila (13 July 2012)

SpottedCat said:



			Because a horse isn't designed to be sat on! It simply has a convenient place for a saddle  But anatomically, the weight is carried by muscles/tendons/ligaments due to the nature of the skeletal structure of the horse - when it is at liberty in the field it isn't carrying any extra weight, and it doesn't have pressure on parts of it that were never designed to have pressure on them. Unless it engages and uses its muscles correctly (and by this I mean correctly in the sense of what is required to minimise the impact of carrying a rider), there is a very much increased chance of injury/pain simply because of how they are constructed anatomically. It's their bad luck that they happen to be a convenient size and shape to be ridden, and are temperamentally suited to domestication and training.
		
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Or good luck, as their other option would surely be getting eaten!  

I started my last post by saying "the lesser of two evils" and then deleted that, thinking I would be mortally offending riders who happily let their horse amble along on a loose rein.  There was a row on a more American-based horse forum I sometimes read, where dressage riders were discussing the importance of the "outline" and correct engagement, as per SpottedCat's post there, and then a bunch of Western riders got all up in arms about it.  If you have a ranch horse, a cow horse, or various things like that, you don't even work the horse on contact.  My experience of living in the American West is that these horses don't go lame any more or less often than dressage horses.  So take that as you will.  

I still think that riders who are learning independent aids and have not yet developed a consistent soft and elastic feel should err on the side of less contact.  The horse may not be through, but a horse who's getting his face hauled on isn't going to be any more through but he will be more miserable.


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## siennamum (13 July 2012)

Babybear said:



			No you've got it right.  He's happy and relaxed and swingy when he gets to pus his nose where he wants it but once you try and collect him a bit he tenses up or can lose impulsion.
		
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Just out of interest have you tried lunging him in side reins?


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## Jingleballs (13 July 2012)

siennamum said:



			Just out of interest have you tried lunging him in side reins?
		
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Never tried side reins but did try a pessoa type aid and he HATED it - for a horse that normally likes his nose to the ground he spend a lot of time with his nose in the air.

What I do use is the "Kerilli method" where I use side reins and a cavesson but the reins go across his wither and inbetween the front legs to encourage him to work long and low and get a stretch across his back - not surprisingly he's happy to work like that!


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## siennamum (13 July 2012)

Caol Ila said:



			Or good luck, as their other option would surely be getting eaten!  

I started my last post by saying "the lesser of two evils" and then deleted that, thinking I would be mortally offending riders who happily let their horse amble along on a loose rein.  There was a row on a more American-based horse forum I sometimes read, where dressage riders were discussing the importance of the "outline" and correct engagement, as per SpottedCat's post there, and then a bunch of Western riders got all up in arms about it.  If you have a ranch horse, a cow horse, or various things like that, you don't even work the horse on contact.  My experience of living in the American West is that these horses don't go lame any more or less often than dressage horses.  So take that as you will.  

I still think that riders who are learning independent aids and have not yet developed a consistent soft and elastic feel should err on the side of less contact.  The horse may not be through, but a horse who's getting his face hauled on isn't going to be any more through but he will be more miserable.
		
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I completely get where you are coming from when talking about the relevance of western style riding. I always insist people ride my horses as if they are on cow ponies, with minimal hand and all seat and legs. When we are starting youngsters I really like them completely controllable & steerable without reins as far as possible. I think dressage requires another level of elevation & power though. (as I'm sure you do) and that to acheive this you have to make demand involving a contact - you couldn't have it with a western bit I suppose as it would be too harsh, thogh I suppose the western vs dressage debate is a whole other thing.


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## npage123 (13 July 2012)

Thanks for all the great advice.

All these tips on how to use your legs, seat, balance, hands, etc. does make me admire disabled dressage riders even more!


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## tristar (13 July 2012)

some of the old masters rode their youngsters in headcollars, so the young horse would not be afraid to reach forward and stretch.

the standard is not set by competition riders, for me anyway, but by people who show good work achieved by kind methods who take the necessary time to condition the whole horse, not just its head and neck, and i believe all riding schools and instructors should sign an oath:  'if it can't be done with kindness, then it won't be done at all'


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## Halfstep (13 July 2012)

tristar said:



			some of the old masters rode their youngsters in headcollars, so the young horse would not be afraid to reach forward and stretch.

the standard is not set by competition riders, for me anyway, but by people who show good work achieved by kind methods who take the necessary time to condition the whole horse, not just its head and neck, and i believe all riding schools and instructors should sign an oath:  'if it can't be done with kindness, then it won't be done at all'
		
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What makes you think that those who compete don't take the necessary time to condition the whole horse, as you put it? 

And please note that some of the "old masters" engaged in practices that would make your hair stand on end. I promise you this.


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## SpottedCat (13 July 2012)

Caol Ila said:



			I still think that riders who are learning independent aids and have not yet developed a consistent soft and elastic feel should err on the side of less contact.  The horse may not be through, but a horse who's getting his face hauled on isn't going to be any more through but he will be more miserable.
		
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I wasn't really talking about riders who are educating themselves to ride with feel, which as has been said is impossible to describe and requires sitting on something educated, which people don't do enough in this country, and which is compounded by the twin problems of people being obsessed with a) buying youngsters to bring on and b) the idea that sending your horse to a pro for schooling is 'cheating'. I was talking about your average rider, who has the occasional lesson, who thinks that a light contact = letting the horse trundle around on the forehand, hocks trailing and back hollow, and then complains about being judged accordingly in their dressage tests - because it is 'bad' to have a contact on the horse's mouth. Unlike the western rider, they are trying to perform dressage movements, and they do put unnecessary stress and strain on their horse because they think they are doing the right thing by not taking up a proper, consistent contact.


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## Caol Ila (13 July 2012)

SpottedCat said:



			I wasn't really talking about riders who are educating themselves to ride with feel, which as has been said is impossible to describe and requires sitting on something educated, which people don't do enough in this country, and which is compounded by the twin problems of people being obsessed with a) buying youngsters to bring on and b) the idea that sending your horse to a pro for schooling is 'cheating'. I was talking about your average rider, who has the occasional lesson, who thinks that a light contact = letting the horse trundle around on the forehand, hocks trailing and back hollow, and then complains about being judged accordingly in their dressage tests - because it is 'bad' to have a contact on the horse's mouth. Unlike the western rider, they are trying to perform dressage movements, and they do put unnecessary stress and strain on their horse because they think they are doing the right thing by not taking up a proper, consistent contact.
		
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Fair enough.  I see what you're saying and of course understand how an elastic contact gets elevation and power from the horse.  That said, I've seen riders get collection without contact, without even a bridle, but these are people who have an amazing and precise seat and leg.  I'm definitely not good enough to ride bridleless.  I've tried but my seat and leg are far from precise enough.  It's like having a conversation but being told you can't use nouns.  Poor horse is like "what?"  I can ride her in a flat halter, however.  Just not in a neck rope alone.  

If I could ride like this (maybe foregoing the country music), I wouldn't care where my horse put her nose! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qIvYRZkklT0

Also, I think a lot of your perspective is informed by who and what you see around you.  Most dressage riders I see look like they're wrestling alligators.  The people I know who let their horses trundle about are happy hackers.  The latter are the ones who I ring when I need someone to ride my horse when I'm out town.  I'd rather her trundle about for a week than get her face pulled off.

But don't listen to me.  Listen to this guy:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mVOAX5Kz2Cs.  One of my favourite trainers.


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## kerilli (13 July 2012)

Caol Ila said:



			Also, I think a lot of your perspective is informed by who and what you see around you.  Most dressage riders I see look like they're wrestling alligators.  The people I know who let their horses trundle about are happy hackers.  The latter are the ones who I ring when I need someone to ride my horse when I'm out town.  I'd rather her trundle about for a week than get her face pulled off.
		
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This, exactly. But, dressage done nicely shouldn't ever be about the horse being forced into an outline, or having its face pulled of. I liken it to asking the horse to come out and dance with you. So, you're trying to get a Wallflower to dance... do you ask her politely and then encourage her carefully, or drag her out and rape her on the dancefloor?! Sorry for the analogy but when I see some riding it's the latter...   

SC, I see your point, but I truly don't think horses trundling along suffer IF they are carrying a balanced rider of acceptable weight (whole new pit of vipers, that)  on a well-fitting saddle. I bet the incidences of physical breakdowns are higher in horses which have been worked "on the bit" than not. I fully realise that this is over-simplistic though... the worked horses will probably have been drilled for longer, yadda yadda. A million other variables.


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## tristar (13 July 2012)

halfstep don't worry about my hair standing on end, its my eyes i'm concerned about when i see for instance, anky v grunsven and poor old toto etc, it makes want to cry.

caol I1a, the understanding between the western rider and her horse is a lesson to us all!


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## TrasaM (13 July 2012)

tristar said:



			some of the old masters rode their youngsters in headcollars, so the young horse would not be afraid to reach forward and stretch.

the standard is not set by competition riders, for me anyway, but by people who show good work achieved by kind methods who take the necessary time to condition the whole horse, not just its head and neck, and i believe all riding schools and instructors should sign an oath:  'if it can't be done with kindness, then it won't be done at all'
		
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Also agree with Tristar. I have lessons on a little cob who was written off as unrideable a year ago and donated to the school. Kindness patience and firmness has turned her into a well behaved and calm teacher of numptys like me. 

And.. Caol Ila's point about beginners not being told to take a firm rein contact when they have no idea what they're doing AND still using the reins for balance to boot.  I resisted, to my instructors annoyance, tight rein contact and only now after a year am I starting to shorten the reins as I'm beginning to feel the correct tension.  

Interesting discussion this.


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## mystiandsunny (13 July 2012)

Interesting reading .

I train my lot with the first method - so impulsion + rhythm + basic straightness + contact = horse on the bit (or whatever you choose to call it!).  Then you keep refining and refining with the added control of shoulders, back etc that being in a correct outline brings.  If I pick up the reins on either of my older (more trained lol) horses, they follow the contact wherever it might lead.  Not through any sort of force, but because that is what they has been taught to do.  They understand that when the reins are shortened, they bring the head and neck up more, sit more behind and direct the energy upwards - then if they are lengthened, stretch forward with head, neck and stride length.  The contact stays the same regardless, so long as I've kept them supple in all ways so it's easy for them to do.


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## TarrSteps (14 July 2012)

Caol Ila said:



			But don't listen to me.  Listen to this guy:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mVOAX5Kz2Cs.  One of my favourite trainers.
		
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More out of curiosity than to start a debate. . .you said earlier, CI, that you leaned towards the "German" end of the training spectrum but that clip from Buck (who I think very highly off, for what that's worth) is positively "Baucherist"! 

The discussion of how Western horses vs dressage horses go is quite and interesting one but very difficult without having sat on both.  It's true Western riders are not big on "contact" but they are big on "self carriage" and sometimes, quite frankly, go about getting what they want (correct or not) in ways that would cause the aforementioned hairs to stand on end.  

Also, even very good Western horses do not have the SORT of power behind than dressage horses.  It's not better or &#373;orse, just not the same.  While I think there are useful things to be learned from other schools of thought, it's not always easy to make direct comparisons, especially as the work becomes more advanced.  I've made that mistake many times!!

As far as horses being a pleasure to ride, I'd say my personal experience is probably that all the various groups have similar percentages.  I can say I've sat on some "good" - read successful - Western horses that were no pleasure to ride even if they weren't hard in the hand.

As a point, for dressage purposes yes, there are really only the two main schools of thought but, of course, there are other schools of riding - Caprilli/Italian military, English "hunting" seat, a couple of Western branches, American jumping style (mix of French, Hungarian and some English), and more I know nothing about - all of which have their own "rules" for riding the horse to the hand and how it's "best" for horses to go.  I actually think some of the problems come from people chopping and changing, and leaving out big chunks of the system, as much as from people adhering too rigidly to one method.  If, for example, a system is based on regular use of cavalletti then working the horse by the rules of that system on the flat but NOT using the cavalletti work will not produce the desired result.  Systems are whole cloth and it takes time and experience to learn which bits can be swapped out into other systems without causing problems down the line.

All of which is in no way pertinent to the OP. . See sawing is bad.  It's bad because it doesn't do any of the things anyone really wants or needs to do to get a horse working correctly in any proven school.  Bend/counter bend exercises are a different issue but again, if all anyone sees/wants is the head going back and forth they are missing the point.

Re successful riders' methods . . .some very good riders do some things wrong.  They get away with it - if they do - because they do other things well enough (or so well) that they make up for what isn't so good.  That doesn't make that wrong bit good practice or indeed, even an option for the rest of us mere mortals. 

One point that hasn't been given enough press on this thread, if you ask me (which no one has but that's the beauty of Internet forums) is that it's actually the rider's job to "shape" the horse with their WHOLE way of riding, not just by doing x with the leg and y with the hand.  That includes sitting in such a way that the soft rounded back has a space to come in to (even if that's metaphorical) which doesn't mean a light seat (although that may be the starting point) as that decreases connection.  It means having the thigh relaxed enough not to block but toned enough to be used to shape turns etc.  It means enough contact to receive but not so much as to constrict . . . . .blah blah blah.


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## Moomin1 (14 July 2012)

Having read just some of the replies here, I have to say that I also find 'sawing' absolutely horrendous and it riles the hell out of me.  I am not saying for one second that I have never done it - when I was a kid I thought that was the way to go about it - until I got told (very told) that was not the case.  I am by no means a good rider, or experienced in schooling/training/dressage/bringing on youngsters, but I hate with a passion seeing horses being pulled and forced and having their mouths yanked from side to side to create a false outline.  To me it's something that should be created over a long period of time (I'm still trying - but have taken lots and lots of inspiration from Pootleperkin on this one) and should not be forced or hurried.  I have been to many a place who are backing youngsters etc etc and they are being hauled around by their sensitive mouths and forced into outlines when they should just be getting used to carrying people and learning to balance.  Very sad.


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## SpottedCat (14 July 2012)

The other issue is the idea that no youngster should be asked to  work in an outline in balance etc   - Of course they should. After all, it is easier to work correctly from the outset than to be allowed to work incorrectly then  suddenly required to change.


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## Echo24 (14 July 2012)

I was also told to squeeze and release with hands to encourage a horse to soften into a contact. However I think I over thought it and hands were becoming a right mess! Instructor suggested forgetting about my hands, just keep them still and concentrate on getting the horse working uphill and with good impulsion. After 10 minutes the pony naturally softened and went into a lovely outline!


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## kerilli (14 July 2012)

i think another factor nobody's mentioned is that some horses find it very easy, and others do not. not just from good training, although obv that's a big deal, some just soften easily at poll and jaw, others are more physically and/or mentally challenged/challenging. 
some will also go into a pretty enough outline even when not truly working correctly through the body, but it's enough to keep a lot of riders (and perhaps some judges!) happy... whereas others are black/white and until their hindend is truly engaged and their back is swinging, you have no nice outline at all... they won't pretend, until they are totally there and connected. 
the modern fixation with the head and neck drives me crackers... you can see someone doing a really horrible job on a horse, but if its neck is arched then lots of people seem to think they must be a fantastic rider... compared to someone on a horse going in true balance and swinging, but just not quite there yet... but because it's poking its nose a bit (which is NOT the biggest sin!) everyone seems to think they don't know what they're doing! a horse can be 'on the bit' without the face being perfectly vertical, let alone well behind the vertical... and the number of people who think that's desirable makes me despair!
btw my trainer HATES the word 'round', refuses to hear it in relation to outline. I think that's one of the big problems, inaccurate translations and misunderstandings. of course if you are looking for a 'round' outline, you could think a curved neck is the be-all-a-end-all...   



SpottedCat said:



			The other issue is the idea that no youngster should be asked to  work in an outline in balance etc   - Of course they should. After all, it is easier to work correctly from the outset than to be allowed to work incorrectly then  suddenly required to change.
		
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ye-es... to a point. but what kind of 'outline' do you mean? because i know from experience that letting a horse, from backing onwards, work in nice balance to a light elastic contact UNTIL it happily WANTS to seek the hand and develops the correct outline, results in a horse who is VERY easy to get into a correct dressage outline, totally secure and light and easy for anyone. whereas i've seen and ridden quite a few who were asked into an 'outline' (i.e. not poking nose, to be as blunt as possible!) far too early and worked out all sorts of evasions because they found it difficult. when they're learning to rebalance themselves with a rider on, the last thing they need as an added complication is 'keep your nose in!' imho...  but this is where 'outline' is such a vague term - there are a lot of different variations which are acceptable at different stages (as shown in pics above). 'in balance' - yes, definitely, but that doesn't necessarily have anything to do with outline (see Western horses etc).


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## Lolo (14 July 2012)

I always interpreted 'not round' to mean that the arc from the hind end to the nose wasn't round but either inverted or a totally random squiggle- is that right?


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## kerilli (14 July 2012)

Lolo said:



			I always interpreted 'not round' to mean that the arc from the hind end to the nose wasn't round but either inverted or a totally random squiggle- is that right?
		
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Yes, but I think a lot of people don't really look at, or feel, what the hindquarters and the back are doing, to be blunt! I did say "you _could_ think a curved neck is the be-all-and-end-all"... obv there are exceptions!


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## SpottedCat (14 July 2012)

I mean that if you spend 3 years doing everything with no contact at all because it's a youngster it results in a horse with incorrect muscle development that often is on the forehand. Whereas if you have a light consistent contact from the outset, they learn to work over the back and never develop that inverted neck muscle. 

I didn't say 'just backed' I said 'youngster'  - two different things  Of course they need to be ridden away and learn balance and forwards etc first, what I'm talking about is the idea that because they are young you should not touch the mouth/ask for any kind of engagement, but then suddenly when they are 6 (or whatever age!) they should work 'in an outline'. Quite rightly the horse has an opinion on that and it often isn't pretty!!


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## Lolo (14 July 2012)

kerilli said:



			Yes, but I think a lot of people don't really look at, or feel, what the hindquarters and the back are doing, to be blunt! I did say "you _could_ think a curved neck is the be-all-and-end-all"... obv there are exceptions!
		
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I think I grasped what they meant quite quickly as horse's favoured method of going made him look like a llama on speed. 

Which is a second point- I think once a horse has got to a certain age, the battle to get anything approaching appropriate work out of them is one you have to really decide whether you want to face. I spent 5 years on the horse I mentioned above struggling to get him to relax and soften over his back- not even come on the bit, but to just stop fighting. In the end, the only way I found was to give him virtually no contact and let him do what he liked. This took us from low 40% scores to late 50% (59.6% being our highest ever). We had regular lessons and everyone struggled as he'd been going in his way for 20 odd years and had adapted to it and found it comfortable...


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## TrasaM (14 July 2012)

When we watch a horse running about in the field it does not need a rider on it's back pulling it into the correct shape, it does it all by itself. By logical extension if we then put  a rider on and the horse no longer moves the same it seem obvious that the fault lies not with the horse but the person on it's back. Anyone who's ever given a child a piggy back will know how difficult it is to carry even a light weight when it's not balanced properly.  
The horse does have to learn how to balance itself with a human on it's back but likewise the rider must be balanced or the horse will always have to work harder to compensate.
 I ride a horse who is sensitive not just to how I'm balanced on his back and what my hands are doing but also to my moods and feelings. He is a wonderful teacher as he mirrors everything I do and feel when I ride him. I know that when things don't go right that it's not his fault but that I have messed up somewhere with my directions. I must try harder to be a better rider , he already knows how to be a horse.


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## kerilli (14 July 2012)

SpottedCat said:



			I mean that if you spend 3 years doing everything with no contact at all because it's a youngster it results in a horse with incorrect muscle development that often is on the forehand. Whereas if you have a light consistent contact from the outset, they learn to work over the back and never develop that inverted neck muscle. 

I didn't say 'just backed' I said 'youngster'  - two different things  Of course they need to be ridden away and learn balance and forwards etc first, what I'm talking about is the idea that because they are young you should not touch the mouth/ask for any kind of engagement, but then suddenly when they are 6 (or whatever age!) they should work 'in an outline'. Quite rightly the horse has an opinion on that and it often isn't pretty!!
		
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Oh, I agree, absolutely. I misunderstood you, you said "from the outset" which I took to mean from the very beginning. fwiw I do see people trying to ride just backed horses in an outline - and if they offer it, fine, some horses do - it's the 'trying to force them into it so it becomes a habit' thing that grates on me.


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## SpottedCat (14 July 2012)

Lol, no, not quite from the absolute outset, but once you've got the basics installed.


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## kerilli (14 July 2012)

SpottedCat said:



			Lol, no, not quite from the absolute outset, but once you've got the basics installed.
		
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Absolutely. Gosh, you can see how internet arguments get started... one small misunderstanding and we're nearly off!


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## SpottedCat (14 July 2012)

My bad - should have worded it better  

Think the arguments start when the basic rules of politeness are bypassed and/or people assume
Something is meant rudely rather than my default which is to assume it isn't!


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## Halfstep (14 July 2012)

I see the problem being a lack of general equestrian knowledge among so many riders, especially in this country. This leads to extremes. there are those who misunderstand the requirements, and either pull a horse's head down artificially, or conversely are so terrified to touch the reins that the horse is out of balance permanently. Because contact IS a prerequisite, and a horse doesn't learn to use its body correctly under saddle without guidance from the rider, and that includes using the rein aids. However, if the rider isn't able to give this guidance, that is where the problems start. Lightness is the goal, but it isn't some sort of mystical nirvana. 

If you look at the very good riders of this world, those who have near perfect seats and amazing feel (people like Ingrid Klimke, Uta Graf, Carl Hester, Mark Todd, Michael Eilberg), they are capable of sitting on the proverbial beach donkey, and make it look pretty good, on the bit and coming through from behind. Conversely, put an average rider on Totilas, Valegro, or Farouche, and chances are they'll not make it out of walk, and the walk will be going in all directions!


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## Burnttoast (14 July 2012)

Sorry to take the discussion back a few pages but I've only just got here  Re letting a horse slop along on no rein contact because it is "kinder" and the rider is not capable of riding with feel (I am generally with SC on this) - that's perhaps all right, up to a point, on a straight line, but once said rider wants to do pseudo-schooling it becomes a different matter. How many mystery leg injuries ("he must have done it in the field") are down to such a chronic lack of straightness that just one unfortunate tweak of the overloaded limb is enough to bring on serious injury? It does seem often the case that forelimb injuries correspond to the shoulder the horse prefers and is allowed to load.

For the record I don't like see-sawing either


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## Caol Ila (14 July 2012)

TarrSteps said:



			More out of curiosity than to start a debate. . .you said earlier, CI, that you leaned towards the "German" end of the training spectrum but that clip from Buck (who I think very highly off, for what that's worth) is positively "Baucherist"! 

The discussion of how Western horses vs dressage horses go is quite and interesting one but very difficult without having sat on both.  It's true Western riders are not big on "contact" but they are big on "self carriage" and sometimes, quite frankly, go about getting what they want (correct or not) in ways that would cause the aforementioned hairs to stand on end.  

Also, even very good Western horses do not have the SORT of power behind than dressage horses.  It's not better or &#373;orse, just not the same.  While I think there are useful things to be learned from other schools of thought, it's not always easy to make direct comparisons, especially as the work becomes more advanced.  I've made that mistake many times!!

As far as horses being a pleasure to ride, I'd say my personal experience is probably that all the various groups have similar percentages.  I can say I've sat on some "good" - read successful - Western horses that were no pleasure to ride even if they weren't hard in the hand.

As a point, for dressage purposes yes, there are really only the two main schools of thought but, of course, there are other schools of riding - Caprilli/Italian military, English "hunting" seat, a couple of Western branches, American jumping style (mix of French, Hungarian and some English), and more I know nothing about - all of which have their own "rules" for riding the horse to the hand and how it's "best" for horses to go.  I actually think some of the problems come from people chopping and changing, and leaving out big chunks of the system, as much as from people adhering too rigidly to one method.  If, for example, a system is based on regular use of cavalletti then working the horse by the rules of that system on the flat but NOT using the cavalletti work will not produce the desired result.  Systems are whole cloth and it takes time and experience to learn which bits can be swapped out into other systems without causing problems down the line.

All of which is in no way pertinent to the OP. . See sawing is bad.  It's bad because it doesn't do any of the things anyone really wants or needs to do to get a horse working correctly in any proven school.  Bend/counter bend exercises are a different issue but again, if all anyone sees/wants is the head going back and forth they are missing the point.

Re successful riders' methods . . .some very good riders do some things wrong.  They get away with it - if they do - because they do other things well enough (or so well) that they make up for what isn't so good.  That doesn't make that wrong bit good practice or indeed, even an option for the rest of us mere mortals. 

One point that hasn't been given enough press on this thread, if you ask me (which no one has but that's the beauty of Internet forums) is that it's actually the rider's job to "shape" the horse with their WHOLE way of riding, not just by doing x with the leg and y with the hand.  That includes sitting in such a way that the soft rounded back has a space to come in to (even if that's metaphorical) which doesn't mean a light seat (although that may be the starting point) as that decreases connection.  It means having the thigh relaxed enough not to block but toned enough to be used to shape turns etc.  It means enough contact to receive but not so much as to constrict . . . . .blah blah blah.
		
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Yes, you're right... I think both approaches are good and I essentially want to be adaptable, as all horses are different.  I suppose I got into the German approach because it was so effective for my horse, who is a Shire-TBX.  She's a tad long -- not horrendous, but slightly longer than is perfectly ideal for dressage.  Her neck ties into her body closer the thoroughbred horizontal, rather than on the more elevated Shire side of things.  She also has a huge stride and lots of power and when I first bought her, she leaned like a freight train, due to her conformation and shight training, as all that power was being driven down onto the forehand.  Really pushing her forward so those hind legs started carrying the weight did wonders for her.  If I had something like an Iberian horse, with a very different conformation, I don't know that I would use this exact approach.  

I also do softening exercises, like what Buck was talking about in that video, from a standstill.  Because I've found it helpful and also because the trainer who taught me how to start youngsters and work out problems was a student of Buck's and I did, and do, like this approach.

As someone else said, some horses will find these things easier than others.  My first horse was a QH, thick neck, thick through the throatlatch, and typical shuffley quarter horse movement with no real power behind or "space" in her gait.  This horse was not going to be a dressage horse.  Unsurprisingly, she hated it because she found it hard.   She worked okay up to US Training and First level (kind of -- no lengthening to speak of on that horse) but no chance at Second, as she lacked the flexibility to easily do shoulder-ins, travers, and so on, and because of the way she was built, she wasn't ever going to really get it.  The Shire-X, while not anyone's Grand Prix prospect, works quite happily to medium level or so and she doesn't find it physically hard, so she's not as resistant as the QH was.  

I only brought up Western riding as a comparison, to show that you don't *need* to work your horse in an outline with lots of impulsion for it to have a long, sound, working life.  Ranch horses don't move in the same way as dressage horses, but then, chasing cows in a dressage frame would look pretty silly.  

What I see, just amateur observations of what is often around me at small livery yards, is a lack of rider education.  People don't know what they don't know. And because many of them don't know that they don't know and that there is indeed stuff to know, they're not actively seeking such knowledge out.


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## TarrSteps (14 July 2012)

I would say that last paragraph applies to horses, too! Re the earlier discussion about having to fight long and hard to change an older horse's way of going, I would have to disagree - there may have to be some initial discussion but one of the things I love about retraining is the feeling when the horse starts to understand how to make things easier and more comfortable on its own and to actively seek that next step in the process. Magic.

I think that's a big part of it for people, too. If you've ever sat on a horse going really well, even at a very basic level it will ruin your life because you'll never be happy with anything else again. 

That's what I don't understand about people being reluctant to have an instructor or similar sit on their horse - why would you not want a glimpse into the future for the rider AND the horse? How do you have a successful treasure hunt if you don't know what you hope to find?


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## Caol Ila (14 July 2012)

I'd agree with that TarrSteps, and would add that one of my pet theories is that horses are often more adaptable than their riders.  It is easier to change a horse's bad habits than its rider's.  The horse naturally follows the path of least resistance and seeks cooperation, or at least comfort and safety, and he will adapt to his environment (or rider) in order to do so.  In my experience, horses (and other animals) seem less likely than humans to keep repeating behaviour that doesn't work (obviously there are exceptions, usually caused by stress).  Humans really do have a penchant for endlessly repeating maladative behaviour!  

Therefore if you can show a horse that when he does what you want, he gets praised and gets to relax and the pressure goes away, he's much more likely to be eager to please.  On the flip side, they learn unwanted behaviours just as easily.  

Back when I was teaching, I once asked a student, "You've been trying to get him into a outline by hanging on the inside rein for months and he's still resistant and behind the leg.  What makes you think it's going to start working now?"  When the horse was ridden differently, the resistance melted away.  I have found this with my own horse.  When I change a small part of the way I ride, she changes.   She's not so stuck in her bad habits.  

To anyone thinking about taking a Centred Riding lesson, I would recommend it.  If you can even make a small, positive change in your riding, it might make a huge difference to your horse.


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## kerilli (14 July 2012)

Caol Ila, I see your point, BUT, on the flip side (and this was taught to me by my trainer, who is mega-experienced - was trained by Neindorff - and very patient) sometimes you have to 'just repeat' until it works. i needed someone with a great eye (him!) to stand there for hours, patiently telling me when it started working (because at first i really couldn't feel it) until the feeling got clear/good enough for me to have an 'AHA' moment. changing something before then would have just confused the horse, a stronger aid, adding whip, whatever, becomes a different question, no?
it is human nature, with most things in life, to keep changing something until you get the result you want. to a horse, this might feel like 10 different aids that were all actually supposed to be the same question - but, perhaps because the rider isn't as in control of his/her body as he thinks, or was trying stronger, harder, more seat bone, more angle, more spur, flick with whip, turn shoulders, more bend to get what they wanted, so they ended up giving 10 different versions of what they thought clearly meant x. Then you get a confused horse who GUESSED and offered something... which was the wrong thing, and was then punished... which leads to resistance and resentment. there's a huge difference between a horse saying 'stuff you, i won't do that' and 'this is what you mean, yes?'  realising that was a huge lightbulb moment for me. if a youngster offers me, say, rein back when i'm asking for turn on the haunches, i smile, pat it, check my position, try again. years ago i would have said "NO" and assumed it was being disobedient. huge difference.
i hope that makes sense. 
there's a time for changing things, and also a time for making sure you are asking just as you intend (so, if something doesn't work, i always try to check myself first), and waiting for the horse to realise that that means x...


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## Elf On A Shelf (14 July 2012)

I ride alot with my legs and seat. Sending the horse forward. Once forward motion has engaged then I gently squeeze one rein, then the other to encourage a correct outline. Once there the hands stay still with a light contact. I generally ride with quite long reins and I never rush a horse or pony. 

Each and everyone of them is different and they all have their own individual outlines - some a little longer, some lower, some more in, some more out. The trick is knowing what your horses natural outline is and guiding them into it.


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## mystiandsunny (14 July 2012)

Can I ask a question?  For those in the 'ask repeatedly whenever head comes up, otherwise on almost non-existent contact' camp - how do you ask for collection/extension like that?  How do you get the horse to stretch down - is that just what happens when you stop niggling with your hands?


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## Kadastorm (14 July 2012)

this is an interesting topic, im currently teaching our younger students to start to work the horses correctly. 
i have been doing this over the past couple of months, starting with keeping a consistant rein contact and encouraging the horses to move forwards into it. i have then taught them how to gently ask the horses to bend, firstly to the outside, then straight, then to the inside, then straight again. (i get them to do this while maintaining impulsion and using the legs to ask for a bend whilst moving forwards) This is to get the horses to loosen through their head and neck and allow them to relax through their back. 
Once they have done this, i get them to come onto a 20m circle and ask for an inside bend while maintaining a good contact and rythmn, then ask them to half halt to get the horse to listen and move from his hind quarters rather than leaning and running on the forehand. i do this mainly in trot and canter, once they feel the difference and understand what they are looking for i send them away to practise, using transitions, school movements etc. Our horses really respond to a consistant rein contact and the half halt. 

Each horse is different though, the above may work for one horse but not for another. i am able to adjust depending on the horse i ride.


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## HindleapSaraphina (14 July 2012)

This is an area I like to cover, 


Best ways:

- Jiggle (GENTLY) the reins.
- Sponge.
- Thumbs on top, tilt your hands.


However, the pony MUST be going foward first!


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## kerilli (14 July 2012)

But if you 'jiggle' the reins, how can the horse go forward to a consistent contact? Surely you need to keep 1 hand still (in relation to the horse's mouth) so the horse always has that contact to trust and go forwards to? Not criticising, genuinely asking.


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## HindleapSaraphina (15 July 2012)

Well, what I mean is, is that you don't constantly do all those things. After the horse had excepted the bit, you reward them by stopping the action you've been using.


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## HindleapSaraphina (15 July 2012)

TBH, I've known it as 'playing' with you reins.


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## twinkle_toes (15 July 2012)

TBH I think people over think it and complicate it way too much. Surely you should just maintain a steady contact on the outside rein and ask for inside bend and as long as the horse is stepping through properly it'll take the contact!? I think people make it harder than it actually is!


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## HindleapSaraphina (15 July 2012)

I think it sort of is if the horse isn't used to it...


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## tristar (15 July 2012)

twinkle toes says it gets made too complicated, i would like add i think its also sounds like it becomes too much about effort and doing this and that when i personally find its more about what you don't do and the last thing i am using is my hands, in fact i find softening the hands has a better result.

its  curious how the debate centres around the use of the hand.


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## kerilli (15 July 2012)

twinkle_toes said:



			TBH I think people over think it and complicate it way too much. Surely you should just maintain a steady contact on the outside rein and ask for inside bend and as long as the horse is stepping through properly it'll take the contact!? I think people make it harder than it actually is!
		
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Hmm, but my trainer, and therefore I, would totally disagree with even that... we aim to keep the elastic steady contact on the inside rein, allowing and half-halting with the outside rein. the inside hand, like the outside leg, is essentially passive, 'there' but not being used actively for the most part, while the inside leg is active when necessary, and being used to push the horse into the outside rein, which is the influential one. This way you get a straight horse, working from inside leg to outside rein, and the horses learn to trust and go forward to the inside rein.

Re: tristar saying "it's curious how this debate centres around the use of the hand". 
Well, you can either see that as being good, because we're all taking as read that the legs and seat should be used, and that inside leg in particular should be working to engage the horse...
Or
You can despair that, as we are essentially primates who grab things with their hands, that will almost invariably be our overriding instinct, and the reason we fixate so much on hand aids and control/influence with the hands!


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## TrasaM (15 July 2012)

Xenophon (400 bc)
If we want to have a war horse that attracts people's attention with it's magnificent paces, it is important to avoid pulling on the mouth with the brake and using the spur and the whip, by which most people imagine they can make a horse brilliant.......but if we learn to ride our horses with the curb loose, to lift the neck by rounding from the head, we can indeed make it do things happily and proudly.

Quote from. Philippe Karls. Twisted Truth of Modern Dressage

2412 years on and still valid advice.


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## HindleapSaraphina (15 July 2012)

It is mainly the legs you should use though, not the hands. Think it as 'don't have stern hands'?


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## HindleapSaraphina (27 July 2012)

Have we covered this then?


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## JustMeThen (3 August 2012)

Surely when a horse is working in a true outline, the head coming down is secondary because its hindlegs are tracking up, it's working over its back and because there's a contact there, the horse works into it. Over-emphasising the head position and sawing the reins just makes it tuck its jaw in and doesn't make it use its back at all...?

On a similar, kind-of note, my new 6-year-oold ISH gelding's canter is very babyish, unbalanced and all over the place! Any good exercises for helping balance it? Thanks.


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## HindleapSaraphina (4 August 2012)

Yeah I think so.....  
Not really sure about the excercises... Will have a think.


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## kerilli (4 August 2012)

eleanor79 said:



			Surely when a horse is working in a true outline, the head coming down is secondary because its hindlegs are tracking up, it's working over its back and because there's a contact there, the horse works into it. Over-emphasising the head position and sawing the reins just makes it tuck its jaw in and doesn't make it use its back at all...?

On a similar, kind-of note, my new 6-year-oold ISH gelding's canter is very babyish, unbalanced and all over the place! Any good exercises for helping balance it? Thanks.
		
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Totally agree with the first paragraph, unfortunately the current 'face vertical - or btv - and prettily arched neck' fixation does not help at all...   

Exercises:  uphill work to strengthen hind end if you can. Cantering out on hacks to be able to send on build strength. In arena - leg yield a bit out to canter trans so engaging inside hind from the start, lots of transitions, keep canter periods short so he doesn't get on his forehand, canter 18m circle to 20m circle, that sort of thing. The canter can improve dramatically very quickly, I think, as strength improves.


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## toomanyhorses26 (4 August 2012)

think its a case of find what works for your horse - if i rode either of mine in the method that I use for the other one I would be in trouble - my giraffe is a lazy toad and yes he will tuck his head in a look all pretty but his arse is waving around in the wind doing nowt so he is a real one for transitions,circles,get him totally off my leg and the front/half outline just happens - i guess the more traditional method of working a horse into an outlione. My mare would have a total hissy fit if i tried this - rightly or wrongly she needs a very definate rein contact and then you cangradually wind the power up from her hind quarters ,soften the rein contact out longer and lighter and still get the result of a horse working (90% of the time  ) i know the method for her isnt strictly correct as such but it works for her and deals with the people created issues that she has - in time im sure the balance will tip towards the correct methods as such .


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## HindleapSaraphina (4 August 2012)

Like the others have said; I'd do lots of circles, serpentines and hill work.  also, maybe really try to get his back working and going forward..


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