# Leo flipped and smashed a carriage to pieces tonight



## Leo Walker (7 August 2018)

I was very lucky. I managed to haul him off balance enough to get him onto someones drive and he got stuck on 2 huge concrete gate posts. He snapped a shaft clean off and bent the other one out of shape. Thanks to quick release harness we got him out even when he was going mental. 

If I hadnt managed to stop him doing a complete 180 he would have flipped the carriage and gone back through the village which is lots of narrow roads with cars parked, so god knows how much damage would have been done. If there had been a person on the path or a car in the road when he did it he would have gone over the top of them. 

Even though the carriage is sitting damaged in someones garden I feel very, very, very lucky that things went the way they did. I dont know why he did it, the more I think about it the more concerned I get. He was completely fine, trotting along and then just flipped. Once we had him out he was clearly expecting a beating, once he knew that wasnt happening he walked home like a donkey.

I'm getting the vet out and having him scoped/worked up as appropriate but unless something comes up thats a clear cause and fixable he wont ever drive again. Its one thing putting myself at risk, but another completely putting other people at risk. 

I'm devastated. I love the bones of him. He owes me nothing and if he doesnt want to or cant do it anymore I am more than happy to retire him. But hes a complete idiot. If he works hard hes lovely. If he doesnt he jumps out for the hell of it and is a complete pain. Hes always refused to live out, which is fine when hes working. I'm going to try and find him turnout in a settled herd where they all live out and see if he settles. The alternative doesnt bear thinking about


----------



## TheresaW (7 August 2018)

So sorry to read this, especially seeing how well youve both been doing.

Might be a stupid question, but could he have been stung or bitten by something that set him off? 

Glad you are both ok.


----------



## Pearlsasinger (7 August 2018)

I am so sorry to hear this news, you were doing so  well together. 
 Is it possible that he was stung by something?

I know of a case where an elderly lady was driving up her (long) drive when her normally placid, sensible cob took fright and legged it, turned the carriage over and the elderly driver was killed.   Her husband, who had witnessed most of the episode from the ground was firmly of the belief that the horse had been stung/bitten.  The behaviour was very out of character.

Thank goodness no-one was injured


----------



## ycbm (7 August 2018)

I am so sorry LW, this must be devastating for you.


----------



## Polos Mum (7 August 2018)

very frightening for you - take care of yourself


----------



## Bob notacob (7 August 2018)

OMG! Thank God you both are OK. Beware of delayed shock .Youve been so busy sorting stuff it can creep up on you. TAKE THE DAY OFF TOMORROW (shouts Bob my trusty ID from the background)Bob is always right.


----------



## Surbie (7 August 2018)

That is gutting - are you sure there was nothing like a sting or bite that could have set it off given it is so out of character?

Really glad you and Leo are both safe and it ended nearly as well as it could have. I hope you or the vet spots something that can make sense of it.


----------



## Lintel (7 August 2018)

Also thinking of stings or bites so glad your both ok!


----------



## SEL (7 August 2018)

Very, very glad you're ok. Was it your new carriage or the one he's been in for a while?

Ok so just read FB and old carriage. What problem did Osteo treat him for? Reoccurence? Btw - not trying to.persuade you to drive him again, just feeling you need answers.


----------



## Dave's Mam (7 August 2018)

So glad you're both ok.  As Bob Notacob said be aware of delayed shock, it can creep up.


----------



## Peregrine Falcon (7 August 2018)

What a fright that must have been.  Glad no one physically hurt.  Take care of yourself.


----------



## Sam_J (7 August 2018)

That sounds terrifying - glad that there were no injuries.  Be extra kind to yourself for the next few days.


----------



## Asha (7 August 2018)

That must have been terrifying for both you and him. Glad your both ok, and hope you get to the bottom of it


----------



## millikins (7 August 2018)

I am so sorry to hear this but very glad you are both o.k. When it goes wrong driving it goes really wrong doesn't it?


----------



## Dave's Mam (7 August 2018)

Just supposing.  Could he have been bitten or stung & has thought he's been hit?


----------



## poiuytrewq (7 August 2018)

So so sorry to read this  
What a massive hideous shock. Can/is he ridden at all? 
A very similar accident happened last year by my house, the horse now enjoys a career doing dressage. 
Hopefully something treatable will show up when the vet comes. 
Hugs xx


----------



## AdorableAlice (7 August 2018)

Awful incident, I have noticed there is a massive amount of early wasps around at the moment.  i found two tangled in a fly rug this evening.  Hopefully your vet will help you.


----------



## Lovethebeach (7 August 2018)

Husband had a crash last year with senior cob but could see the hornet which had got under the strap just above the crupper, I believe they can sting several times? Was a few hundred yards before he managed to run her onto a verge and into hedge, was lucky no traffic at the time and only a bent shaft and scraped wheel. He long reined her in harness several times and then drove in the school, she has carried on driving with no problems. I do hope you find something similar with Leo and so glad you are ok


----------



## Micropony (7 August 2018)

How awful for you both, that must have been terrifying.  I wonder if you find a big bite or sting when you check him over tomorrow.  Even the calmest horse can have it's moments, but that really sounds out of character for him - he must have had a reason.  I really hope you're able to piece together what it might have been.


----------



## paddi22 (7 August 2018)

TRhat sounds so scary. there's a lot of wasps around our place at moment, could it have been that if it was so sudden.?


----------



## alainax (7 August 2018)

Thank goodness everyone is ok, don&#8217;t think too far in advance at the moment, just take each bit of information in as you get it, and check for stings tomorrow.


----------



## Leo Walker (7 August 2018)

Definitely no sting. He planned it, well planned buggering off. There was a kid on a push along scooter. He couldnt give 2 figs about that sort of thing. He is the definition of bombproof. He saw them, carried on, then basically ******ed off. He was planning on going home but I managed to pull him off balance enough to stop that. 

There is clearly something wrong and the vet is coming hopefully tomorrow to discuss and book him in for a scope and work up as appropriate, but having given it a little bit of time I am as sure as I can be that its a mental problem not a physical one. To be fair given the reaction even if its physical then I'm pretty sure his driving career is over. 

I wasnt scared and am pretty ballsy about stuff like that but I had a child with me in the carriage and I can hand on heart say if anyone had gotten in his way he would have ploughed them down, so that has really bothered me. I hauled him round without thinking and I have been so, so lucky that he got himself stuck. Thank god for quick release harness as well. It was literally seconds between it happening and us getting him out.

He was expecting a beating which tells me hes done it before. Travellers dont get rid of entires that pull bow tops unless they do something. I always assumed he kicked the wrong person, but now I'm not so sure

I owe him so much. I wish he could talk to me and tell me what the problem is


----------



## honetpot (7 August 2018)

So pleased you are OK. 
I had one of the kids old ponies broken to drive, he hunted at three and was frightened of nothing. I took him into town one Sunday and forgot it was fair weekend. Nothing bothered him, he stood outside Woolies for sweets. On the way home the was a Tesco bag floating about 12ft off the ground just in his vision and he started to run, there were masses of people about with dogs and kids. I managed to ram him in to a car park barrier. Like you I was more worried about other people. Although he walked home,  I decided driving wasn't for me and sold the cart and harness. Kept the pony though and he is baby sitting young stock when he is not trying to get out and under electric fencing. He is out on loan and life is a lot simpler with out him, if boring at times.
  I hope you find him another job.


----------



## Leo Walker (7 August 2018)

Sometimes being bold and a bit bolshy works against you. Hes not bothered by anything ever, other than a bit of jiggling when old scooters come past him. If he was worried about cars he wouldnt have done what he did!


----------



## Sheep (7 August 2018)

Ahhh goodness, sorry to hear this LW. Glad you're ok and hope you get to the bottom of what may have caused it.


----------



## Goldenstar (8 August 2018)

When things go wrong in a carriage it&#8217;s just terrifying .
You just don&#8217;t drive a horse like that again .
You are ok he did not get loose and endanger others just take a few days to settle yourself before you decide anything .
I used to drive Tatts but he just gave me a bad feeling sometimes and I just decided one day I was never putting him too again .


----------



## View (8 August 2018)

Oh my goodness, so scary.  Glad you are OK, and as others have said, don't rush into any final decisions.  Trust your gut instinct in a few days, when he ahs been checked over.


----------



## tda (8 August 2018)

Leo Walker said:



			Definitely no sting. He planned it, well planned buggering off. There was a kid on a push along scooter. He couldnt give 2 figs about that sort of thing. He is the definition of bombproof. He saw them, carried on, then basically ******ed off. He was planning on going home but I managed to pull him off balance enough to stop that. 

There is clearly something wrong and the vet is coming hopefully tomorrow to discuss and book him in for a scope and work up as appropriate, but having given it a little bit of time I am as sure as I can be that its a mental problem not a physical one. To be fair given the reaction even if its physical then I'm pretty sure his driving career is over. 

I wasnt scared and am pretty ballsy about stuff like that but I had a child with me in the carriage and I can hand on heart say if anyone had gotten in his way he would have ploughed them down, so that has really bothered me. I hauled him round without thinking and I have been so, so lucky that he got himself stuck. Thank god for quick release harness as well. It was literally seconds between it happening and us getting him out.

He was expecting a beating which tells me hes done it before. Travellers dont get rid of entires that pull bow tops unless they do something. I always assumed he kicked the wrong person, but now I'm not so sure

I owe him so much. I wish he could talk to me and tell me what the problem is 

Click to expand...

Know how you feel, we had a pony that we bred, well started ( we thought,) driven miles, no reported problems, but when we got him home he bolted twice, once in the field with carriage attached, went thru a barbed wire fence,  2nd time just stood being harnessed up, went straight thru the arena fence&#128558;

He was young so I carried on with his ridden which was fine. 

Wish I knew what happened, I feel so responsible  xx


----------



## Bernster (8 August 2018)

Gosh that sounds do awful. So scary. Glad you are all ok though, that&#8217;s the main thing. And that it all turns out to be ok.  Take care of yourself.


----------



## antigone (8 August 2018)

Couldn't just read and leave. So sorry this has happened - for both of you. I hope you find out why and it is fixable. Sending hugs.


----------



## Nudibranch (8 August 2018)

Very frightening indeed. Thank goodness you're all ok. I hope you get to the bottom of it and that he can have an alternative career at the end of it. That kind of thing is always in the back of my mind when I'm driving and as you say, if there'd been cars involved....scary stuff. Fingers crossed for a good outcome.


----------



## DabDab (8 August 2018)

Yikes, scary. Glad everyone is ok at the end of it. It's so difficult when you just don't know a horse's history.

Do you think he would take to logging? Pulling work without the carriage...


----------



## Leo Walker (8 August 2018)

Ive been tossing and turning all night. I cannot believe how lucky I have been. Just a series of fluke events that meant we got him stuck and got him out rather than him bolting through the village.

Hes not driving again. This is the 3rd incident like this. Ive made excuses the other times but the reality is something is wrong in his head. If I work him very hard and keep him tired hes fine. But I cant sustain that.

I adore him and will do everything in my power to keep him safe. Im going to look for settled herd turn out for him and see if he will accept it. I've got this awful feeling that I'm doing it for me not him but I have to try.


----------



## meleeka (8 August 2018)

Sorry this happened to you and I hope you get answers.  My cob was driven in a previous home. The scenario that happened to you is the reason I havent learnt to drive my boy myself. To spook with a rider on board is one thing, but all that equipment is frightening when things go wrong and I think Id be a nervous wreck.


----------



## rabatsa (8 August 2018)

You have made the right decision in not driving him again.  Enjoy him for who he is and not what he can do.


----------



## Red-1 (8 August 2018)

I am so sorry to hear this, I have followed your story and been happy for your triumphs. 

If he has done it twice before and now again, I think you are right to stop driving. Life is too short. I hope he finds another role. And you another driving horse. (I recollect you were thinking about a second - youngster - so presume you have the capacity for another. X


----------



## Chinchilla (8 August 2018)

So, so sorry to here this LW: it must have been a horrible situation to be in. How are you and your boy today? Let us know what the vet says too x


----------



## Spottyappy (8 August 2018)

So sorry to read this after both of your difficulties in the past.
Am seriously glad you&#8217;re both ok, and it wasn&#8217;t worse. 
Have nothing useful to add, but hope you find a way to keep him, and you, happy.


----------



## Tiddlypom (8 August 2018)

How frightening, but very well done for containing the situation as well as you did. You say he's done it 2 times before, is that with you? 

I'm so sorry about this, after all the work and care you've put into him and how well you've been doing with him.


----------



## Clodagh (8 August 2018)

I think you have made the right decision but I am devastated for you. 
You can only try the turnout thing and see how it goes, one day at a time. Best if luck.


----------



## southerncomfort (8 August 2018)

How very frightening.  

FWIW I think you've made the right decision.  He might never do it again, but it's not knowing that will give you sleepless nights and endless worry.

I'm so glad you are all ok.


----------



## HeyMich (8 August 2018)

Gosh, what a fright! Glad you are both ok with no physical injuries - mental/emotional injuries may appear in time!

As others have said, it could be something really simple that spooked him. 

My horse spooked last night when I was long-reining her, which could have gone seriously wrong! She's a guzzle guts so as we walked past a hedge she grabbed a mouthful, only to get a thorny twig stuck under her bit. She spooked, I dropped one of the lines but managed to hold on to the other one enough to work my way up to her head and calm her down. Thorny twig removed, and a calm walk back to the yard. My life flashed before my eyes! 

Hope you are both feeling ok about it all today, and you manage to collect all the damaged bits of the carriage! Sounds like he needs a break, and you need to get your thoughts in order before you make any rash decisions. You were both doing so well - hopefully not the end of the road for Team Leo!

xx


----------



## pennyturner (8 August 2018)

Sorry to hear this.  I think something similar happens to every driver at some point, and it scares the bejeezus out of you.

If he's fundamentally unsafe, then of course it's the right decision not to drive him again.  I would encourage you to get on the box seat again (new pony?) soon though - it gets harder the longer you leave it.


----------



## AShetlandBitMeOnce (8 August 2018)

Not much else to add other than I'm sorry to hear this happened, and I hope you are okay. I have so loved hearing of your journey, so perhaps this could be the start of a new one for you. 
xx


----------



## Nudibranch (8 August 2018)

HeyMich, that kind of behaviour in harness is a big no. It's very different to in hand or under saddle. There's simply far greater potential for serious damage to horse, driver and other people. Only this week a lady was killed when her horse bolted with the carriage. I believe no other vehicles were involved.
LW I'm not trying to make you feel worse btw! Just to point out to non drivers that it's a very different ball game.


----------



## Leo Walker (8 August 2018)

pennyturner said:



			Sorry to hear this.  I think something similar happens to every driver at some point, and it scares the bejeezus out of you.

If he's fundamentally unsafe, then of course it's the right decision not to drive him again.  I would encourage you to get on the box seat again (new pony?) soon though - it gets harder the longer you leave it.
		
Click to expand...

Its in his head. There was an incident where he went at a driving trial but I got him back. It was caused by a carriage rattling behind him. It was pretty clear he'd been in an accident by his reaction, but we have such a close relationship and he did come back to me, so I thought we would be ok.

Theres been a couple of weird incidents with him, one involving him trying to jump through a hedge! I put that down to feed as hes very reactive to starches. Well at least thats what I thought, but actually I'm wondering if that was me making excuses for him.

The incidents have escalated and last night had the potential to be utterly horrific. When we picked the carriage up this morning and I looked at the scene in the cold light of day, I cannot believe he tried to go through a solid fence, and I cannot believe that by fluke he got caught on two huge, concreted gate posts. If he hadnt he wouldnt have stopped and the carriage would have almost certainly tipped and it doesnt bear thinking about the damage he would have done!

The force involved must have been amazing. He snapped a solid steel shaft, and split the gate post. Its 5 feet high and 2 feet wide of solid wood.

I'm trying to borrow a suitable saddle so I can have an instructor assess him for me and see if he has a future as a riding pony. Hes had lots of professional schooling previously and a novice friend has been wandering around bareback on him, so we shall see!

Thank god I didnt get a youngster. No idea why I didnt. I dont usually dither like that. Maybe I knew this was coming on some level?! Anyway, now I'm going to be looking for a nice 4yr old. Clean slate so I'm not dealing with previous issues, and something without any major quirks. I adore Leo but sometimes I find dealing with him utterly exhausting!


----------



## Michen (8 August 2018)

Leo Walker said:



			Its in his head. There was an incident where he went at a driving trial but I got him back. It was caused by a carriage rattling behind him. It was pretty clear he'd been in an accident by his reaction, but we have such a close relationship and he did come back to me, so I thought we would be ok.

Theres been a couple of weird incidents with him, one involving him trying to jump through a hedge! I put that down to feed as hes very reactive to starches. Well at least thats what I thought, but actually I'm wondering if that was me making excuses for him.

The incidents have escalated and last night had the potential to be utterly horrific. When we picked the carriage up this morning and I looked at the scene in the cold light of day, I cannot believe he tried to go through a solid fence, and I cannot believe that by fluke he got caught on two huge, concreted gate posts. If he hadnt he wouldnt have stopped and the carriage would have almost certainly tipped and it doesnt bear thinking about the damage he would have done!

The force involved must have been amazing. He snapped a solid steel shaft, and split the gate post. Its 5 feet high and 2 feet wide of solid wood.

I'm trying to borrow a suitable saddle so I can have an instructor assess him for me and see if he has a future as a riding pony. Hes had lots of professional schooling previously and a novice friend has been wandering around bareback on him, so we shall see!

Thank god I didnt get a youngster. No idea why I didnt. I dont usually dither like that. Maybe I knew this was coming on some level?! Anyway, now I'm going to be looking for a nice 4yr old. Clean slate so I'm not dealing with previous issues, and something without any major quirks. I adore Leo but sometimes I find dealing with him utterly exhausting!
		
Click to expand...

I dont profess to know anything about driving, but if a horse has so little self awareness it was willing to go through a fence, Im not sure its any safer under saddle- just restricted risk to the rider rather than pedestrians/cars so much?


----------



## Merrymoles (8 August 2018)

Oh LW I've just caught up with this. How devastating for you. I'm guessing just continuing with driving trials away from the road is not an option? Presumably you couldn't keep him fit enough.


----------



## Mule (8 August 2018)

I'm sorry about this. It sounds very scary. I hope that things will work out for both of you.


----------



## hopscotch bandit (8 August 2018)

Gosh strangely I was watching 'country pleasure driving crash gone wrong' on YouTube yesterday as someone has put a link on FB about it. You can see by watching how quickly things can escalate and go wrong with driving.   I had a go at it years ago when I groomed for a carriage driving team whose horses and carriages were used for films, but I felt a bit vulnerable up there to be honest and wasn't keen. I think its the distance between horse and rider that put me off if you know what I mean.

Hope you are feeling better soon


----------



## Surbie (8 August 2018)

Leo Walker said:



			Its in his head. There was an incident where he went at a driving trial but I got him back. It was caused by a carriage rattling behind him. It was pretty clear he'd been in an accident by his reaction, but we have such a close relationship and he did come back to me, so I thought we would be ok.

Theres been a couple of weird incidents with him, one involving him trying to jump through a hedge! I put that down to feed as hes very reactive to starches. Well at least thats what I thought, but actually I'm wondering if that was me making excuses for him.

The incidents have escalated and last night had the potential to be utterly horrific. When we picked the carriage up this morning and I looked at the scene in the cold light of day, I cannot believe he tried to go through a solid fence, and I cannot believe that by fluke he got caught on two huge, concreted gate posts. If he hadnt he wouldnt have stopped and the carriage would have almost certainly tipped and it doesnt bear thinking about the damage he would have done!

The force involved must have been amazing. He snapped a solid steel shaft, and split the gate post. Its 5 feet high and 2 feet wide of solid wood.

I'm trying to borrow a suitable saddle so I can have an instructor assess him for me and see if he has a future as a riding pony. Hes had lots of professional schooling previously and a novice friend has been wandering around bareback on him, so we shall see!

Thank god I didnt get a youngster. No idea why I didnt. I dont usually dither like that. Maybe I knew this was coming on some level?! Anyway, now I'm going to be looking for a nice 4yr old. Clean slate so I'm not dealing with previous issues, and something without any major quirks. I adore Leo but sometimes I find dealing with him utterly exhausting!
		
Click to expand...

Sounds like you are making the right decision not to drive him again. I have loved following your progress, as a longtime HH lurker as well as when I signed up. I hope you can find the right solution for both of you, and to find another horse to drive. Well done on your quick reactions.


----------



## pennyturner (8 August 2018)

Accidents will always happen, but driving horse has to be willing to 'come back' to you no matter what has startled him.  It can't be helped if they shoot forward, but panic and flight, well, it's just too dangerous.  There has to be trust, both ways.

I'll never forget the look on the face of a (very good) pony of mine, when we hit an unseen obstacle in the grass at about 20mph, ripping out the end of the traces, and sending the 2 wheel vehicle nose-diving into the turf and me flying out like superman.  He shot away up the road, of course, but skidded to a halt after 20 yards, turned 180, and gave me a 'mum WTF?' look, shaking like a leaf, until I got to him.  He was able to be put to again with no harm done, because his trust was absolute.

You see the same thing with trials ponies, who turn over a carriage and wait patiently on the floor for it to be righted, as though it happens every day.  (then again, driving like that, perhaps it does  )

If he's not cut out for it, better to call it a day whilst you and he are still in tact.  Carriages can be mended.


----------



## Leo Walker (8 August 2018)

Hes a funny one. We get cones caught up all the time and he doesnt turn a hair. We've gone through and over obstacles and he waits to be freed. Something has happened to him previously and it seems it just needs the right set of circumstances and it sets him off. He planned to spook which is fine, but then something triggered as he turned and he flipped. Thats not fine  

Once we got him out I went to his head and he was flinching away from me expecting a beating. He was lame and in pain when I got him and I suspect he was a bit of a git and someone has tried to beat it out of him and just screwed him up.

I am as sure as I can be that he wont do it riding. I suspect I could drive him and he wouldnt do it again for a while but it would be incredibly reckless and selfish of me to do that now I know what hes capable of. But my god, will I miss it! Theres not another horse on the planet that compares to him when hes on form.


----------



## fidleyspromise (8 August 2018)

So sorry to read this (and your updates throughout the post).
Leo is very lucky to have landed with you.
I am so glad there were no injuries and you have clearly thought the whole situation through so I hope you're able to find a solution for you both.


----------



## Pearlsasinger (8 August 2018)

pennyturner said:



			Accidents will always happen, but driving horse has to be willing to 'come back' to you no matter what has startled him.  It can't be helped if they shoot forward, but panic and flight, well, it's just too dangerous.  There has to be trust, both ways.

I'll never forget the look on the face of a (very good) pony of mine, when we hit an unseen obstacle in the grass at about 20mph, ripping out the end of the traces, and sending the 2 wheel vehicle nose-diving into the turf and me flying out like superman.  He shot away up the road, of course, but skidded to a halt after 20 yards, turned 180, and gave me a 'mum WTF?' look, shaking like a leaf, until I got to him.  He was able to be put to again with no harm done, because his trust was absolute.

You see the same thing with trials ponies, who turn over a carriage and wait patiently on the floor for it to be righted, as though it happens every day.  (then again, driving like that, perhaps it does  )

If he's not cut out for it, better to call it a day whilst you and he are still in tact.  Carriages can be mended.
		
Click to expand...

Our first horse was a gelding who had retired from driving holiday-makers on Blackpool's Golden Mile.  Ridden, he once fell over on the road and stayed down until the rider struggled out from under him and told him to get up.  The only thing that he ever reacted to was jets of steam coming from woollen mills.  That shows how long ago it is!  A driven horse has to be absolutely trustworthy.
In your position, OP, I would be looking for an older proven driver, for my next horse.


----------



## MyBoyChe (8 August 2018)

I am so sorry to read this.  Ive been following your progress and know youve had a rough old time health wise too.  You had been making such wonderful progress and this must be hugely disappointing.  Ive only ever driven a horse once, many years ago and I felt so out of control, it was being behind rather than on top, it just felt weird and I was terrified so I do admire anyone who drives a horse, it is most definitely not an easy option.  My first thought was a sting or a bite, my super chilled highland performed a rather nifty airs above the ground a couple of weeks ago after a horse fly bite, terrified my hubby who was walking out with us and just shows how the calmest of animals can react at times.  You obviously know him well enough to realise it is something more though and a brave and sensible decision to call it a day.  I do hope you can find something for him to do to keep him occupied and manage to find yourself something else to carry on driving x


----------



## rara007 (8 August 2018)

What was it that actually happened? He span threatening to bolt but you managed to wedge him before he ran?


----------



## Leo Walker (8 August 2018)

I wish! He spooked, then out of nowhere blind bolted while spinning. I pulled him off balance enough that he only went 90 instead of 180. He went over the road, up a drive and tried to go through a hedge/5 bar gate fence. It was a blind bolt. If I hadnt pulled him off balance he'd have gone.

He got the shaft stuck on one side of 2 massive fence posts which held him. He went beserk but couldnt break free. I managed to get him out, thanks to quick release, and he span a few times and then flinched when I went to him like he thought I was going to beat him. As soon as I touched him it was like the switch flipped back and he was instantly calm and back to normal.. 

I am as sure as I can be that hes had an accident previously and they've tried to beat it out of him. Theres been 3 other incidents of weird behaviour including jumping through a hedge and freaking out. He flips then instantly calms down. I've made excuses for him but its escalated and its a miracle hes not hurt himself or someone else.

He smashed the carriage up and bent the shafts, and when I checked the second gate post is 5 foot high and 2 foot wide solid wood and hes cracked the whole length of it so he did nearly get free which would have been catastrophic.


----------



## Mule (8 August 2018)

Leo Walker said:



			I wish! He spooked, then out of nowhere blind bolted while spinning. I pulled him off balance enough that he only went 90 instead of 180. He went over the road, up a drive and tried to go through a hedge/5 bar gate fence. It was a blind bolt. If I hadnt pulled him off balance he'd have gone.

He got the shaft stuck on one side of 2 massive fence posts which held him. He went beserk but couldnt break free. I managed to get him out, thanks to quick release, and he span a few times and then flinched when I went to him like he thought I was going to beat him. As soon as I touched him it was like the switch flipped back and he was instantly calm and back to normal.. 

I am as sure as I can be that hes had an accident previously and they've tried to beat it out of him. Theres been 3 other incidents of weird behaviour including jumping through a hedge and freaking out. He flips then instantly calms down. I've made excuses for him but its escalated and its a miracle hes not hurt himself or someone else.

He smashed the carriage up and bent the shafts, and when I checked the second gate post is 5 foot high and 2 foot wide solid wood and hes cracked the whole length of it so he did nearly get free which would have been catastrophic.
		
Click to expand...

I had a horse that would flip like a switch too and go in to a blind bolt. It's very unnerving and unfortunately you can never trust them


----------



## Goldenstar (8 August 2018)

Well he did not get lose and you live to fight another day . I have to say the difficulty in finding sound safe quality driving horses was one of the reasons I gave up .
I sold the last of my stuff at the end of last month .


----------



## YasandCrystal (8 August 2018)

I have a friend who has 2 cobs given to her by gypsies. They were both petrified, one would drop to the ground in his stable when she approached and the other was shut down completely. It took her years to gain their confidence and trust and she found out that they had been beaten and abused with an electric cattle prod. Can you just imagine the fear, just wicked.


----------



## Nasicus (9 August 2018)

Another one with a cob from a gypsy background, driven at some point in her life and often expects me to smack her around the head. Eyes rolling in their sockets, head up to the heavens, staggering backwards to get away. It doesn't happen as often now, but it's really sad to see when she does do it, especially if all I did was move my hand a bit too quickly near her head. Like YAC said, just wicked!


----------



## Cinnamontoast (9 August 2018)

Devastated for you, V. He was doing so well in harness. 

You won&#8217;t ride, if that&#8217;s his route, will you?


----------



## Mule (9 August 2018)

YasandCrystal said:



			I have a friend who has 2 cobs given to her by gypsies. They were both petrified, one would drop to the ground in his stable when she approached and the other was shut down completely. It took her years to gain their confidence and trust and she found out that they had been beaten and abused with an electric cattle prod. Can you just imagine the fear, just wicked.
		
Click to expand...

Humans can be so evil.


----------



## pennyturner (9 August 2018)

Just as a counter to the 'beaten cob' stereotype, I will mention that I went to view a 3yo cob, not yet broken, but started by a gipsy chap.  His manners were out of this world.  He'd been led and long-reined all over town, and taught to stop at the road marking at a 'give-way' junction as a default without a word or sign.  Horsemanship as good as I've seen anywhere.


----------



## Merrymoles (9 August 2018)

Having had my horse of unknown origin for six years, I decided to ride with a stick last night for the first time, simply because we'd had an incident with a "log of doom" at the weekend when I couldn't get him to go forward off my leg.

It's safe to say he was petrified of it, even though it was a short stick and I held it halfway down so it was nowhere near him. He continually pulled and jogged and rolled his eyes. I ended up giving it to my riding mate and he immediately settled. Whatever happened to him in the past, he let me know he didn't want it to happen again.

I think we don't always realise how long bad experiences can stay with animals. I am luckier than you, LW, as he wasn't dangerous just really upset by it but I could envisage him flipping his lid under the pressure if I'd waved it around. Poor horses - it is rotten that humans can mess them up so much.


----------



## Dave's Mam (9 August 2018)

pennyturner said:



			Just as a counter to the 'beaten cob' stereotype, I will mention that I went to view a 3yo cob, not yet broken, but started by a gipsy chap.  His manners were out of this world.  He'd been led and long-reined all over town, and taught to stop at the road marking at a 'give-way' junction as a default without a word or sign.  Horsemanship as good as I've seen anywhere.
		
Click to expand...

I have seen the same.


----------



## Snowfilly (9 August 2018)

Dave's Mam said:



			I have seen the same.
		
Click to expand...

 There's quite a few gypsy and traveller families around here. Some produce nervy frightened horses which flinch far too much. Some have bog standard horses with not much schooling but who don't damage the horses they produce. Others have properly mannered horses which are a joy to be around - all taught old fashioned respect and manners, excellent to lead and handle from the ground, and willing to stand tied up when you tell them. I've seen the stop at give way markings taught, and also cobs taught to lower their head and help with putting their collar on, as well as walking over and standing in front of the wagon shafts when told.

I think, like all groups of people, there are good bad and average. It sounds like your poor Leo has experienced the bad.


----------



## shergar (9 August 2018)

Leo Walker said:



			I wish! He spooked, then out of nowhere blind bolted while spinning. I pulled him off balance enough that he only went 90 instead of 180. He went over the road, up a drive and tried to go through a hedge/5 bar gate fence. It was a blind bolt. If I hadnt pulled him off balance he'd have gone.

He got the shaft stuck on one side of 2 massive fence posts which held him. He went beserk but couldnt break free. I managed to get him out, thanks to quick release, and he span a few times and then flinched when I went to him like he thought I was going to beat him. As soon as I touched him it was like the switch flipped back and he was instantly calm and back to normal.. 

I am as sure as I can be that hes had an accident previously and they've tried to beat it out of him. Theres been 3 other incidents of weird behaviour including jumping through a hedge and freaking out. He flips then instantly calms down. I've made excuses for him but its escalated and its a miracle hes not hurt himself or someone else.

He smashed the carriage up and bent the shafts, and when I checked the second gate post is 5 foot high and 2 foot wide solid wood and hes cracked the whole length of it so he did nearly get free which would have been catastrophic.
		
Click to expand...

So sorry to read about your accident thank god you suffered no injuries .
These are the things that stand out Michen said if a horse has so little awareness it is willing to go through a fence , you said its in his head,and blind bolt .
I would say your horse is possibly having seizures ,which are an electrical discharge in the brain ,when this is happening the horse has a loss of vision ,some horses.
 when this happens will walk in circles some will trot and some will blind bolt till something makes them stop .Ask your vet ,though some seem to know more about it than others ,you can also do research on the net.
My main concern would be to keep you safe ,so please do not let any one ride the horse until this possibility is ruled out .How I know about it is because two of my friends had horses that suffered seizures .


----------



## Leo Walker (9 August 2018)

Thats scary! My vet is a livery on the yard so I will talk to her about it tomorrow. Some of that does fit. It would be awful if its that, but easier for me to accept. How where they diagnosed?

I've got my instructor coming to see him on Saturday. She did all the schooling work with him when I got him so knows him better than anyone else ridden wise. She knows whats happened and is fine getting on. 

And no, I wont ride him. I'm fat, he is small and short coupled so can only take a 16.5" saddle absolute max but ideally 16". Hes also very bouncy and I suspect I would just fall off not having ridden in ages now :lol:


----------



## Leo Walker (9 August 2018)

I've also had lovely horses from travellers, so I am definitely not saying they are all bad at all. But Leo was found in a hell of a state as a 10yr old. I've never really asked for the details as its sometimes better not to know. But something happened and I'm suffering the fall out now.


----------



## shergar (10 August 2018)

Leo Walker said:



			Thats scary! My vet is a livery on the yard so I will talk to her about it tomorrow. Some of that does fit. It would be awful if its that, but easier for me to accept. How where they diagnosed?

I've got my instructor coming to see him on Saturday. She did all the schooling work with him when I got him so knows him better than anyone else ridden wise. She knows whats happened and is fine getting on. 

And no, I wont ride him. I'm fat, he is small and short coupled so can only take a 16.5" saddle absolute max but ideally 16". Hes also very bouncy and I suspect I would just fall off not having ridden in ages now :lol:
		
Click to expand...

Answer to where the horses was diagnosed ,the first horse was  a very beautiful show horse that bolted in a ridden class at the Cheshire show ,the rider was terrified she said the horse put its self on a circle and she managed to stay on till the horse stopped ,the horse was retired ,it was then turned away with a settled herd as they were not taking a chance riding it again.
The owners said it had a mental problem ,it had very vacant look in its eyes is how I would describe it .
The herd of horses would come up to the yard each day and walk into the stables ,each horse knew its own stable ,as the mare went in she went berserk as if galloping round and battering her self on the walls till she fell to the floor still in full gallop ,this lasted for a couple of minutes ,as we thought the horse was calming down she died .The horses owner had a P M done as she thought the horse had a brain tumour, it did not .
It was only when another friends horse did odd things ,reported to her by a livery as running  head on into the stable door ,she arrived at the stable one morning to find the stable door burst open and the door frame on the other side of yard ,the horse was on a small grass area eating like nothing had happened ,owner thinks may be a rat or some thing in the stable .
The owner was bringing, the horse in one day and screamed at me to get off the path as the horse was taking her ,the horse was a very gentle sort and all the odd things it did was so out of character.
I was on the yard with my daughter one morning just brushing up no noise going on and the horse did the same thing the first horse had done battered its self on the walls  ,the door came off the front of the stable left the brick base ,like some one flicked a switch it went back to eating a hay net , the vet came and told the owner the horse  had suffered a massive seizure that it was a  danger to its self and every one  else ,the other concern the vet said the stone wall and gates would not have stopped it getting into the road ,that was such a sad day in our yard as the only thing the owner could do was have the horse put to sleep.
Is it possible to test  a horse to see if a seizure has occurred ,or is diagnosis based on the behaviour I am not sure .


----------



## Leo Walker (10 August 2018)

Oh god, thats awful


----------



## Pearlsasinger (10 August 2018)

Leo Walker said:



			Oh god, thats awful 

Click to expand...

It is awful, LW and a dreadful thing for the previous posters, their friends and their horses to have to deal with but in many ways that is better for Leo than his behaviour being a result of earlier abuse.  Sadly it does sound as if for such horses there is only one realistic answer.


----------



## EventingMum (10 August 2018)

So sorry you're having to go through this. I once had a livery pony which the vet thought was taking seizures. She would start charging blindly round the field  to the point of running into other horses and then stop and stand looking vacant before starting to graze again as if nothing had happened.  Unlike you, the owner didn't seem to think there was an issue and even continued to ride - needless to say they didn't stay here very long.


----------



## shergar (10 August 2018)

Leo Walker said:



			Oh god, thats awful 

Click to expand...

It was very scary and sad ,I felt like I was shaking inside for days ,some kind of delayed shock may be .
Did you speak with your vet ? if so did she have any ideas or some one she can refer to for more information to help you .


----------



## Leo Walker (10 August 2018)

I missed her, I'll catch her tomorrow. I was going to have him scoped and worked up but decided against it as it would then make me feel ok to drive him again and its not. I honestly think its in his head, but there is now a question mark for me as to whether its something like a seizure thats causing it.


----------



## Dave's Mam (10 August 2018)

Leo Walker said:



			I missed her, I'll catch her tomorrow. I was going to have him scoped and worked up but decided against it as it would then make me feel ok to drive him again and its not. I honestly think its in his head, but there is now a question mark for me as to whether its something like a seizure thats causing it.
		
Click to expand...

But surely if you are considering him going to be a riding pony, you should get to the bottom of it?  Sorry, but I had to ask.


----------



## Pearlsasinger (10 August 2018)

EventingMum said:



			So sorry you're having to go through this. I once had a livery pony which the vet thought was taking seizures. She would start charging blindly round the field  to the point of running into other horses and then stop and stand looking vacant before starting to graze again as if nothing had happened.  Unlike you, the owner didn't seem to think there was an issue and even continued to ride - needless to say they didn't stay here very long.
		
Click to expand...

Epilepsy can sometimes take a similar form in people.  I once taught a child who would get up from his seat, run round the room, knocking things over and then sit back down in his place, as if nothing had happened.  The school nurse told me that it is a recognised form of seizure.  It can be diagnosed in people through a brain scan.


----------



## Dave's Mam (10 August 2018)

I had a dog with Epilepsy, she would not go running, but would just lose control of her legs & be sick, then just stare for a while.  She'd suddenly click back in but was always absolutely exhausted after a fit.  I cannot imagine a horse doing the same being in any way safe.


----------



## Goldenstar (10 August 2018)

Dave's Mam said:



			I had a dog with Epilepsy, she would not go running, but would just lose control of her legs & be sick, then just stare for a while.  She'd suddenly click back in but was always absolutely exhausted after a fit.  I cannot imagine a horse doing the same being in any way safe.
		
Click to expand...

I don&#8217;t think Horses fit during exercise if they are epileptic


----------



## Dave's Mam (10 August 2018)

Goldenstar said:



			I don&#8217;t think Horses fit during exercise if they are epileptic
		
Click to expand...

I was comparing her to the randomly acting stabled horses, GS, not a working horse.


----------



## Pearlsasinger (10 August 2018)

Goldenstar said:



			I don&#8217;t think Horses fit during exercise if they are epileptic
		
Click to expand...

Why wouldn't they?  
I have known people be walking down the street and suddenly drop in a seizure.  I  had a dog who would have seizures any time, at home, out for a walk in the woods, on the beach, in the car.  I was told to be careful with her around steps and water, in case she suddenly had a seizure, although she usually knew when she was going to have one and came to me.  people are usually told to avoid being near water if they are on their own.


----------



## Leo Walker (10 August 2018)

I viewed a pony yesterday that did almost exactly the same as him, but this one got away, tipped the carriage, jumped a fence, and went beserk. How the driver walked away with only minor injuries I will never know. Turns out there has been a prior accident and something happened which set him off again. Very, very similar and very weird and actually much more scary to be a bystander.

Hes definitely not showing any signs of having a seizure or fit. It was panic in a specific set of circumstances, but I def want to talk to my vet to either rule it out or to find out if a seizure could cause a panic like that and if she thinks its a possibility worth pursuing or not. Gut instinct says not, but I'm not a vet.

Hes being assessed tomorrow by a pro rider who knows him really well so we shall see what she thinks.

The little sod jumped out of his stable today and spent the day roaming the yard. I put him out and he then spent 10mins cantering round his field with his tail in the air, before casually popping the 5 bar gate and taking himself back to his stable. Hes a nightmare when hes not kept occupied and its starting to look like retirement might not be a viable option


----------



## ycbm (10 August 2018)

LW, if retirement is not an option, please remember that the only person it will matter to that he didn't get to stand in a field for fifteen or twenty years is you. He won't care, and he'll never have the slow decline into an arthritic old horse that is the fate of so many. He doesn't sound like a happy horse right now. Whatever you decide, I hope it goes well.


----------



## Pearlsasinger (10 August 2018)

ycbm said:



			LW, if retirement is not an option, please remember that the only person it will matter to that he didn't get to stand in a field for fifteen or twenty years is you. He won't care, and he'll never have the slow decline into an arthritic old horse that is the fate of so many. He doesn't sound like a happy horse right now. Whatever you decide, I hope it goes well.
		
Click to expand...

Wise words.  

LW, in people epileptic seizures take many different forms, they may do so in horses.

I do know of a case where 2 experienced driving horses took fright at a quad bike rattling over gravel and stones behind them and bolted through/over a wall with a 12ft drop at the other side.  Obviously that didn't end well, fortunately the elderly lady driver survived.  You certainly have made the right decision to never drive him again.


----------



## Mule (11 August 2018)

Would you consider loaning him to a riding home?


----------



## Dave's Mam (11 August 2018)

mule said:



			Would you consider loaning him to a riding home?
		
Click to expand...

I asked earlier if it would be safe.


----------



## JJS (11 August 2018)

It's a horrible and hard decision to have to make, but if it's any consolation, I think you've done the right thing. I had to make the same call with Tudor when his headshaking began to manifest in some very dangerous ways. At that point, I vowed never to ride him again, and whilst I know there are others in the same boat as me who have tried a thousand different ways to fix the problem - a minute number with success, the majority without - I think there are two important things to take into account. Firstly, that it's not worth risking anybody's life for the sake of keeping them in work (in T's case, mine), and secondly, that it's not fair on the animal themselves when they're screaming so loudly that they're in pain and/or unhappy. Even if some magical cure manifested itself tomorrow, I would never trust T to be ridden again - his reactions were just too extreme. It seems to me that you're in the same boat, and whether you're fortunate enough to be able to retire Leo as I have Tudor, or have to make a different sort of decision, you haven't failed him in any way, shape or form: you've done what no one else has up to this point and listened.


----------



## Leo Walker (11 August 2018)

ycbm said:



			LW, if retirement is not an option, please remember that the only person it will matter to that he didn't get to stand in a field for fifteen or twenty years is you. He won't care, and he'll never have the slow decline into an arthritic old horse that is the fate of so many. He doesn't sound like a happy horse right now. Whatever you decide, I hope it goes well.
		
Click to expand...

I know. I am very firmly of the opinion that PTS is an option. He is so happy at the minute though. As soon as it was over he was back to normal. The problem is he is a sod if hes not worked or I would just keep him where he is.

I'm definitely not leaving him miserable in a field so I dont have to face up to it. He did live out for a short while and was fine, it was in a big field with young geldings. He spent all day playing and was fine. If I could find him a home nannying youngstock he would love it, but not sure that will happen! He just needs to be keep occupied or he makes his own fun.

Almost all failed driving horses who have had an accident go on to riding homes and never have an issue. An accident driving is very different to being ridden. 

He was ridden and was fine, but I was too fat to ride a 14.2hh pony in a 16" saddle and I loved driving and so did he so we never bothered with it after the inital schooling. I'll see how the riding goes later today. Its not really the riding bit that bothers me, its finding the right person for him. He is incredibly important to me and he will only go to someone if its right.


----------



## Leo Walker (11 August 2018)

JJS said:



			whether you're fortunate enough to be able to retire Leo as I have Tudor, or have to make a different sort of decision, you haven't failed him in any way, shape or form: you've done what no one else has up to this point and listened.
		
Click to expand...

Thank you. I am beyond heartbroken but hes a different horse now with me. Hes so happy and I forget hes not the horrid creature I brought home who hated everyone but me. So if nothing else its been worth it for that alone.


----------



## Goldenstar (11 August 2018)

Pearlsasinger said:



			Why wouldn't they?  
I have known people be walking down the street and suddenly drop in a seizure.  I  had a dog who would have seizures any time, at home, out for a walk in the woods, on the beach, in the car.  I was told to be careful with her around steps and water, in case she suddenly had a seizure, although she usually knew when she was going to have one and came to me.  people are usually told to avoid being near water if they are on their own.
		
Click to expand...

Some thing to do with adrenaline I think .
A friend had a horse with epilepsy it was fine ridden it did have to be PTS in the end because it was not safe to look after .


----------



## Auslander (11 August 2018)

Just thinking aloud here, and I don't mean to be negative,or upset you. I think that having him professionally assessed as a ridden horse is great, but presumably, if he was professionally assessed as a driving horse any time prior to the events of this week, he'd have been passed as a safe driving horse. I just wonder if he might one day have a similar meltdown under saddle, which no-one could have predicted, the same way no-one could have predicted that he'd do what he did in harness.


----------



## Goldenstar (11 August 2018)

Leo Walker said:



			Thank you. I am beyond heartbroken but hes a different horse now with me. Hes so happy and I forget hes not the horrid creature I brought home who hated everyone but me. So if nothing else its been worth it for that alone.
		
Click to expand...

I feel for you you are in a difficult situation .
Whatever you decide is the right thing if you decide to PTS it&#8217;s the right thing if you decide on some form of retirement it&#8217;s fine if he can have a job riding after careful checks that&#8217;s fine .
The important thing he had a happy time knowing what it was to have good loving care in that he very lucky .
I have been in a similar situation I bought a very cheap driving horse after trying for over a year mine was different in that in harness he was great but he showed random biazzre behaviour in stables ,wagon and trailers he was also diffcult to keep sound but much easier to handle when in hard driven work.
I finally had to act when he one of this turns in the trailer and I realised it was only time until it a human got hurt .
He to just flipped it was in his head he had been part of a big rescue as a youngster and I am prepared to bet he had been locked up somewhere .


----------



## GoldenWillow (11 August 2018)

I'm so sorry you're having to deal with this LW. 

I don't have any experience with driving but I have had a cob that developed epilepsy which was later discovered to be caused by a brain tumour. How it affected him was that he would twitch with his front legs and straight away crumple and go down, then seem vacant for a while after. This happened during exercise, happened for the first time being ridden, he was never ridden again, and during lunging when the vet was assessing him. Also happened at rest.


----------



## rara007 (11 August 2018)

Leo Walker said:



			I viewed a pony yesterday that did almost exactly the same as him, but this one got away, tipped the carriage, jumped a fence, and went beserk. How the driver walked away with only minor injuries I will never know. Turns out there has been a prior accident and something happened which set him off again. Very, very similar and very weird and actually much more scary to be a bystander.
(
		
Click to expand...

Honestly, I know its tempting to clutch at straws but common things are common. Horses spooking is common. Horses being terrified beyond consolation when they feel trapped is common. Horses deciding to remove their carriage is common when in such a state. Clinically well horses with no recent head trauma having a seizure whilst remaining conscious with no post ictal phase midway through mid intensisity exercise is beyond rare. Not impossible, but highly unlikely. I am by no means saying he should drive again but I think youd be surprised at the number of successful sports driving animals who have had similar at one point in their training. Im lucky all my carriages can cope with a spin (and a rear spin and pretty good at a buck spin!) and Ive never had solid shafts that wouldnt bend but by the grace of god go us each time we chose to put to. As much as something experienced you dont know the full history now youve had this scare so early on in your Driving I really wouldnt consider something unschooled yet. Theres quite a lot out there at the moment fortunately


----------



## Leo Walker (11 August 2018)

I keep going over and over this. I dont think so though. It was such a specific set of circumstances, and I've been speaking to a few people who have been through similar and they all went on to be ridden with no issues. If there is even the slightest chance that it is a seizure though then he will be PTS straight away. Just heading off now to see the vet and see what she thinks. 

Actually Aus, do you think it would be worth a chat with your super vet? I've never forgotten what she did for me and Frankie.


----------



## Auslander (11 August 2018)

Leo Walker said:



			I keep going over and over this. I dont think so though. It was such a specific set of circumstances, and I've been speaking to a few people who have been through similar and they all went on to be ridden with no issues. If there is even the slightest chance that it is a seizure though then he will be PTS straight away. Just heading off now to see the vet and see what she thinks. 

Actually Aus, do you think it would be worth a chat with your super vet? I've never forgotten what she did for me and Frankie.
		
Click to expand...

Sure she'd be happy to chat, if you think it would help


----------



## Leo Walker (11 August 2018)

rara007 said:



			Honestly, I know it&#8217;s tempting to clutch at straws but common things are common. Horses spooking is common. Horses being terrified beyond consolation when they feel trapped is common. Horses deciding to remove their carriage is common when in such a state. Clinically well horses with no recent head trauma having a seizure whilst remaining conscious with no post ictal phase midway through mid intensisity exercise is beyond rare. Not impossible, but highly unlikely. I am by no means saying he should drive again but I think you&#8217;d be surprised at the number of successful sports driving animals who have had similar at one point in their training. I&#8217;m lucky all my carriages can cope with a spin (and a rear spin and pretty good at a buck spin!) and I&#8217;ve never had solid shafts that wouldn&#8217;t bend but by the grace of god go us each time we chose to put to. As much as something experienced you don&#8217;t know the full history now you&#8217;ve had this scare so early on in your Driving I really wouldn&#8217;t consider something unschooled yet. There&#8217;s quite a lot out there at the moment fortunately 

Click to expand...

Thank you. I value your input. I feel like my head is spinning trying to do the right thing for him.


----------



## Goldenstar (11 August 2018)

rara007 said:



			Honestly, I know it&#8217;s tempting to clutch at straws but common things are common. Horses spooking is common. Horses being terrified beyond consolation when they feel trapped is common. Horses deciding to remove their carriage is common when in such a state. Clinically well horses with no recent head trauma having a seizure whilst remaining conscious with no post ictal phase midway through mid intensisity exercise is beyond rare. Not impossible, but highly unlikely. I am by no means saying he should drive again but I think you&#8217;d be surprised at the number of successful sports driving animals who have had similar at one point in their training. I&#8217;m lucky all my carriages can cope with a spin (and a rear spin and pretty good at a buck spin!) and I&#8217;ve never had solid shafts that wouldn&#8217;t bend but by the grace of god go us each time we chose to put to. As much as something experienced you don&#8217;t know the full history now you&#8217;ve had this scare so early on in your Driving I really wouldn&#8217;t consider something unschooled yet. There&#8217;s quite a lot out there at the moment fortunately 

Click to expand...

I would not consider a green horse yet either .
I know exactly how hard it is to find the right horse you really need an older horse if you could find an older pony looking for a new home because it&#8217;s brought it&#8217;s driver on to the stage where they need a faster one for driving trails at the more competitive levels that would be perfect .


----------



## Shady (11 August 2018)

Leo, i have just caught up with this and i am so , so , gutted for you both. I'm not going to comment on why Leo did what he did, it's happened and you now have to make the correct choice for where you go from here. I will say that my SIL had an ex police horse who needed to be kept in a high level of work or he was an absolute pig, when he developed arthritis in his knees she decided to give him a chance at grass livery and if it didn't work she would pts. He went to an amazing farm in Devon as part of a similar sized/breed type herd in 30 acre fields and he absolutely thrived there and is still there now 13 years later. I know there would be a financial impact with a choice like this  and may not be viable long term but it shows that it can work if it is something you are thinking about doing. xxxxxxxxxx


----------



## Ddraig_wen (11 August 2018)

Very sorry to hear what happened.. I had a horse who came to me after multiple bolting incidents in a cart, the owner's plan was to get him riding so that she could keep him and still have fun.  His first incident in a cart he bolted, not very far but enough to scare his owner who was not an experienced driver. There were a couple of incidents further down the line. The final incident was when an experienced driver took him out with the owner, he blind bolted going straight over a cross roads up a bank and flipping the cart. He kept going up an upturned cart. 

Fast forward about 8 months and he came to be ridden.  He kept an invisible trigger switch. There was no specific set of circumstances that would set him off and the reaction was different each time. He would go for months behaving perfectly and then boom. Unreasonable reaction with no trigger and then back to normal. One incident involved him going vertical in a field he'd hacked through 4 times a week for months. He went vertical and came over backwards.   Another incident at walk months later, suddenly going from the school to the yard full on bronking fit.  He was declared fit and pain free by the vet, tack fit, teeth ok no reason for the random explosions.  There were a few minor incidents with a few months in between other than these. He then behaved for almost a year. The owner was riding him in the indoor one night another livery found her wandering round the yard with a broken collar bone, horse drenched in sweat and saddle with huge scrapes down one side.   
Once again I was asked to ride him - he threw himself sideways into a 5 bar gate.


----------



## touchstone (11 August 2018)

So sorry to hear about your awful experience, funnily enough my dad had exactly the same experience with a cob bought from travellers.  He was a well behaved horse until something went 'wrong' when he would completely panic, it was evident that he had been beaten quite badly when something happened, so of course he panicked more.  Dad had been driving when something caught in the carriage wheel making a noise and the poor horse completely freaked, he bolted and was only stopped by wedging the carriage in a stone gateway on someones drive.   He was never driven again but did make a ridden pony if I remember rightly.  
It just highlights how easily things can go wrong when driving, and the importance of having a horse that you trust completely.   I hope you can be at peace with the decision not to drive Leo again, it just isn't worth the potential risk with a horse that can panic so badly. You are doing the right thing.   Thinking of you and Leo. x


----------



## tankgirl1 (11 August 2018)

Dolly was dangerous driven, she once spooked in traffic and started backing up into the other lane. Thankfully I had someone horsey with me who jumped off the cart and got her head. As you know I am a very novice driver, and although I probably could have got professional help and worked her through it I chose not to. She is however a brilliant ridden pony out hacking, as bombproof as they can be, and has taught my son to ride, so there is hope! xx


----------



## tankgirl1 (11 August 2018)

touchstone said:



			So sorry to hear about your awful experience, funnily enough my dad had exactly the same experience with a cob bought from travellers.  He was a well behaved horse until something went 'wrong' when he would completely panic, it was evident that he had been beaten quite badly when something happened, so of course he panicked more.  Dad had been driving when something caught in the carriage wheel making a noise and the poor horse completely freaked, he bolted and was only stopped by wedging the carriage in a stone gateway on someones drive.   He was never driven again but did make a ridden pony if I remember rightly.  
It just highlights how easily things can go wrong when driving, and the importance of having a horse that you trust completely.   I hope you can be at peace with the decision not to drive Leo again, it just isn't worth the potential risk with a horse that can panic so badly. You are doing the right thing.   Thinking of you and Leo. x
		
Click to expand...

Funnily enough my pony who I don't drive anymore as she was dangerous also came from travellers. She is a brilliant happy hacker though xx


----------



## Lammy (12 August 2018)

Leo Walker said:



			I know. I am very firmly of the opinion that PTS is an option. He is so happy at the minute though. As soon as it was over he was back to normal. The problem is he is a sod if hes not worked or I would just keep him where he is.

I'm definitely not leaving him miserable in a field so I dont have to face up to it. He did live out for a short while and was fine, it was in a big field with young geldings. He spent all day playing and was fine. If I could find him a home nannying youngstock he would love it, but not sure that will happen! He just needs to be keep occupied or he makes his own fun.
		
Click to expand...

If it helps both Knights farm (Walgrave) and Caroline (Hannington) have settled retired herds you could try if it came to it. Knights also have a lot of youngstock they might be happy to have a nanny for?


----------



## Follysmum (12 August 2018)

We have a horse that we retired as a youngster (7yrs old ) due to him having massive outbursts and being completely dangerous to ride . We did find out from a previous owner he had previous of  These outbursts that used to come from no where and you never had a warning, he put a few people in hospital ( nice that someone passed the problem on ) . After having spent a lot of money trying to get to the bottom of his behaviour and everything coming back to a blank  we decided ( vets and us ) that in the interest of him and our safety he wasn&#8217;t to be ridden ever again. He is safe on the floor to be handled so we decided he could nanny outlet youngsters in the field and just be a companion. He has been like this for 10yrs now and is quite happy.  It really is not worth the risk when you have an unpredictable horse, we would definitely pts if he had been a danger to handle . We also had the offer of so many people that could apparently sort him out , I could not of guaranteed his future and run the risk of him being passed around and hurting someone so he stays with us .


----------



## Goldenstar (12 August 2018)

Years ago I put to sleep a homebred three year old who was prone to irrational aggressive outbursts as we worked towards the backing process she attacked while I was gently brushing her ,knocking me out .I came round on the yard having somehow removed myself from her stable .
I decided lifes too short for owning an issue like that and I PTS two days later .
If you had bought her you would have said she had some sort of terrible experiance in her past but she had not .


----------



## Chinchilla (12 August 2018)

Goldenstar said:



			Years ago I put to sleep a homebred three year old who was prone to irrational aggressive outbursts as we worked towards the backing process she attacked while I was gently brushing her ,knocking me out .I came round on the yard having somehow removed myself from her stable .
I decided lifes too short for owning an issue like that and I PTS two days later .
If you had bought her you would have said she had some sort of terrible experiance in her past but she had not .
		
Click to expand...

Did you ever have a PM done to find out why she had the outbursts?


----------



## Goldenstar (12 August 2018)

Chinchilla said:



			Did you ever have a PM done to find out why she had the outbursts?
		
Click to expand...

Nope just rang the kennels and the huntsman got the job done .


----------



## antigone (12 August 2018)

Follysmum said:



			We have a horse that we retired as a youngster (7yrs old ) due to him having massive outbursts and being completely dangerous to ride . We did find out from a previous owner he had previous of  These outbursts that used to come from no where and you never had a warning, he put a few people in hospital ( nice that someone passed the problem on ) . After having spent a lot of money trying to get to the bottom of his behaviour and everything coming back to a blank  we decided ( vets and us ) that in the interest of him and our safety he wasn&#8217;t to be ridden ever again. He is safe on the floor to be handled so we decided he could nanny outlet youngsters in the field and just be a companion. He has been like this for 10yrs now and is quite happy.  It really is not worth the risk when you have an unpredictable horse, we would definitely pts if he had been a danger to handle . We also had the offer of so many people that could apparently sort him out , I could not of guaranteed his future and run the risk of him being passed around and hurting someone so he stays with us .
		
Click to expand...

What a lucky horse to have ended up with you. Well done for doing right by him.


----------



## Follysmum (12 August 2018)

antigone said:



			What a lucky horse to have ended up with you. Well done for doing right by him.
		
Click to expand...

Thankyou that&#8217;s very kind, we have had mixed opinions from people over the years, most say we are too soft and should shoot him. Our opinion is that we took him on and we are responsible to do the best for him, just because he&#8217;s not safe to ride doesn&#8217;t mean he deserves to die .


----------



## Elf On A Shelf (12 August 2018)

Follysmum said:



			Thankyou that&#8217;s very kind, we have had mixed opinions from people over the years, most say we are too soft and should shoot him. Our opinion is that we took him on and we are responsible to do the best for him, just because he&#8217;s not safe to ride doesn&#8217;t mean he deserves to die .
		
Click to expand...

Ok he might not be being ridden but he still has a job - as a nanny! The right horse putting the right manners into youngsters is far far more valuable than any horse you could ride! I have done the same as you and I have some fully retired horses that will never go anywhere. I took them on. They are my responsibility.


----------



## Leo Walker (12 August 2018)

Hes not going to a ridden home. He would do it and probably be fine with a quiet competent rider but those riders dont want a middle aged 14.2hh cob that needs a light weight rider with the lameness history he does. I'm also not prepared to put him through it. The thought of different people trying him worries me as he is so sensitive ridden wise it would blow his brains. 

I've got a couple of possibilities that might work for him to be turned away, but I am thinking more and more about having him PTS. My friend who is very fluffy messaged me yesterday begging me not to chuck him in a field. I was about to get very angry expecting her to be being fluffy about it, when she said she thought he should be PTS rather than face a future he would hate. 

I adore him and owe him so much and it feels increasingly like I might owe it to him to have him PTS in a place hes comfortable and happy rather than risk upsetting him and then having to do it anyway. I just dont know if I can though. Things have been pretty horrible for a long time now and hes whats kept me going. I'm worried that the fall out from having him PTS will be the final straw that breaks me


----------



## MyBoyChe (12 August 2018)

LW, I would say quite the opposite.  You should take a huge amount of consolation and pride from having given him a fabulous home, every chance to be a happy horse and when it hasnt worked out you have taken the absolute best course of action for him.  He will never be passed around or know unkindness again, how good is that.  I can understand how devastated you must be, but putting him first and making sure he is safe are reasons to be very proud and feel good about yourself in my book.  You will not let it break you, you will go forward with your head held high and a new horse will be very lucky to wander into your life


----------



## Pearlsasinger (12 August 2018)

MyBoyChe said:



			LW, I would say quite the opposite.  You should take a huge amount of consolation and pride from having given him a fabulous home, every chance to be a happy horse and when it hasnt worked out you have taken the absolute best course of action for him.  He will never be passed around or know unkindness again, how good is that.  I can understand how devastated you must be, but putting him first and making sure he is safe are reasons to be very proud and feel good about yourself in my book.  You will not let it break you, you will go forward with your head held high and a new horse will be very lucky to wander into your life
		
Click to expand...

I couldn't have put it better myself!
It will be sad, you will be sad but you will know that you have done the best for him that you could because you didn't want him to suffer.


----------



## Rowreach (12 August 2018)

Pearlsasinger said:



			I couldn't have put it better myself!
It will be sad, you will be sad but you will know that you have done the best for him that you could because you didn't want him to suffer.
		
Click to expand...

Absolutely x


----------



## Goldenstar (12 August 2018)

I would completely understand why your mind is running in that direction .
Be kind to yourself and take a little time to settle and think it all through .


----------



## katastrophykat (12 August 2018)

Ill put my three pennies worth in here rather than on FB, V, and say to take time to listen to Goldenstar, Rara and Pennyturner. 
My accident last year was entirely my fault. Gunner didnt put a foot out of place throughout the situation, despite being so sore and the only horse out on the course while his best buddy was waiting for him back at the wagon. He didnt run away, he didnt freak out despite a carriage overturned and a shaft crushing his hock every stride he took. 
The moment that my cast was off and an air cast was on, I put him back too. With trusted friends and extra bodies on the ground, none of which were needed. He is the same horse now (with a little added scar tissue on three out of four legs!) that he was then, and the only reason that he hasnt competed this year is me- I was somewhat more broken than he was! 
But. The accident has changed the way that I think. Its made me more aware of the risk and more importantly the outcome. I was two weeks in a hospital 100 miles from home with a toddler and no job. No income and no way of getting a job as I couldnt leave the house without a wheelchair for months. Im three operations in and I dont dare go back about the vast amounts of swelling in the ankle now because I suspect that they need more operations and Im finally in a job that I love and that can pay for my home and my child- and my ponies!

What Im trying to say, in a roundabout way, is that although I will go back to competition- not before I sort out my carriage, fitness and head a little more- I suspect that itll be a long time, if ever, that I can really get my head back into it and be truly competitive. Accidents with horses can mess up your head, sometimes more than your body and there are times when you have to sit down and decide where your highest risk factor comes from and then mitigate that risk for your own sake. 
FWIW, If I was you, i wouldnt be playing with anything young/unschooled/unknown at this point. 

And yes- I have just broken my three year old to drive! I think were all mad.


----------



## honetpot (12 August 2018)

MyBoyChe said:



			LW, I would say quite the opposite.  You should take a huge amount of consolation and pride from having given him a fabulous home, every chance to be a happy horse and when it hasnt worked out you have taken the absolute best course of action for him.  He will never be passed around or know unkindness again, how good is that.  I can understand how devastated you must be, but putting him first and making sure he is safe are reasons to be very proud and feel good about yourself in my book.  You will not let it break you, you will go forward with your head held high and a new horse will be very lucky to wander into your life
		
Click to expand...

Dear Leo I would absolutely agree with this. Over the last few years I have had to have the knacker or the vet out six times, some planned and some unplanned and although I miss them now as much as the day it was done I have never regretted it. You will know that no one will ever try to sort him out and have complete control. 
  Let the dust settle. My attitude has always been that letting go gives you the opportunity to give something else a good settled home, a loss for you but what could be a life changing gain for them.


----------



## mystiandsunny (12 August 2018)

honetpot said:



			letting go gives you the opportunity to give something else a good settled home, a loss for you but what could be a life changing gain for them.
		
Click to expand...

Completely agree. New horses can be incredibly healing too. 

We have just added a new horse to our herd, who were sad and lonely without a friend who had been part of their lives for over a decade. The new horse has brought joy and happiness to the horses, and to ourselves. He does not replace the one who is missing, but gives much needed distraction. We all have something positive to focus on now, and he has a home for life. One day it will be he who misses a much loved, long-standing friend - and a new horse will come and remind him what it is to be alive.


----------



## Leo Walker (14 August 2018)

Just to wrap this thread up today is the day I pick the new girl up. Its also the day I found the perfect home for Leo. Living out on 20 acres with a little herd of cobs. The field is bordered by a solid hedge and trees on all sides so he just cant get out even if he wanted to. 

He will do occasional pony rides for a 10yr old which is something hes done for me. He seems to quite like it as nothing is really asked of a him and he will be fussed and brushed by her which he will love. Im still retaining ownership so I know hes always safe but im hoping he has a long and happy retirement there.


----------



## Surbie (14 August 2018)

Congratulations, that sounds idyllic for Leo and peace of mind for you that he will have a happy retirement.

I hope he settles quickly in to the herd and enjoys a lovely autumn - and the same for you - hope the new one settles and you have some fun with her before winter really sets in and the days are so short! 

Keep us posted.


----------



## Spottyappy (14 August 2018)

So,pleased to hear Leo has the opportunity to retire. Hope he does enjoy it, guess time will tell, but it sounds fabulous.
Have lots of fun with the new girl.


----------



## antigone (14 August 2018)

Wonderful outcome. So relieved for you and him. Good luck with your new girl.


----------



## SEL (14 August 2018)

Leo Walker said:



			Just to wrap this thread up today is the day I pick the new girl up. Its also the day I found the perfect home for Leo. Living out on 20 acres with a little herd of cobs. The field is bordered by a solid hedge and trees on all sides so he just cant get out even if he wanted to. 

He will do occasional pony rides for a 10yr old which is something hes done for me. He seems to quite like it as nothing is really asked of a him and he will be fussed and brushed by her which he will love. Im still retaining ownership so I know hes always safe but im hoping he has a long and happy retirement there.
		
Click to expand...

Fantastic. I'm so happy to see this post. I really hope that will lead to 2 happy ponies, 1 relieved adult and a small girl who now has a unicorn to play with  I hope Leo likes pink


----------



## Pearlsasinger (14 August 2018)

Good news all round, LW.  I bet you feel so relieved to have found Leo what sounds like the perfect home.


----------



## Follysmum (14 August 2018)

Fantastic so glad you managed to find what is suitable for both you and your horse


----------



## HeyMich (14 August 2018)

That's great news. 

I wish Leo, you and your new girl a happy and healthy next chapter!


----------

