# Touchwood Stud



## ritajennings (7 April 2011)

Great article in H&H about Gemma and Dave


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## Tempi (7 April 2011)

Not seen it yet as at work, but will have a look when i get home


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## DollyDolls (7 April 2011)

I've flicked through mine, and it's the first article that said "read me".  Now I'm late!
They really impressed me at the Stallion showcase at Addington earlier in the yr.  Hope it brings more business their way.


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## cruiseline (7 April 2011)

Congratulations, I will have to wait another week to have a read.


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## Simsar (7 April 2011)

Great reading, well done TW stud!


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## Touchwood (7 April 2011)

Thank you guys.  We were thrilled to be asked, its been a stressful last few months, and its a fabulous boost right at the start of the season.

What with the other articles too (including Henk interview and Groomsbridge Stud), it has shaped up to be a fantastic sportshorse issue, well done H&H.  Now could us breeders have a few more column inches on a regular basis please?


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## sallyf (7 April 2011)

Touchwood said:



			Thank you guys.  We were thrilled to be asked, its been a stressful last few months, and its a fabulous boost right at the start of the season.

What with the other articles too (including Henk interview and Groomsbridge Stud), it has shaped up to be a fantastic sportshorse issue, well done H&H.  Now could us breeders have a few more column inches on a regular basis please? 

Click to expand...

Totally agree having now finally gotten read todays issue there is some fab articles in there


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## chrissie1 (7 April 2011)

More recognition would be wonderful, and few things irk me more than when a horse wins, usually showing, than seeing it described as 'being found in a field'.

SOMEBODY bred that horse.


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## riversideeu (26 April 2011)

Hi

Was I the only person to be a bit upset about what they said in their article about hobby breeders pulling the whole industry down. 
I am a hobby breeder but do not breed rubbish, however I have not had my mares covered last year or this due to the current market, and as my youngsters reach three I have to sell them. I have always previously had a good market for my foals but not for the last 3 years. Of course we have to sell for what we can get, but please dont have a go at us for it. I am not breeding until things pick up and by the amount of good quality brood mares there are at giveaway prices I am not the only one. I think the majority of people in this country will not pay for a well bred and brought up youngster.
You only need to look at the other sections of the forum to see how few people will actually pad a decent price for a nice young horse. 
With their attitude to hobby breeders I do not think I would be welcome at Touchstone when I do have my mares covered again.


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## riversideeu (26 April 2011)

Oops sorry meant Touchwood.


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## Touchwood (26 April 2011)

Riversideeu, I am sorry if you found the comment offensive.....as with many things, when you give an interview, it is difficult to convey the context the comment is taken in.  Actually my whole point was that it is difficult the get across to buyers the true cost of producing a youngster.

I have seen a huge amount of youngsters for sale for £1000.....these are by stallions whose stud fees are £500 plus.  Are you honestly telling me that it then cost only £500 or less to get these foals on the ground?!  AI fees will cost you approximately £250, then you need to keep the mare for 11 months and the mare and foal for 6 months.  Vets fees associated with foaling and newborn foals cost at least £200 if nothing goes wrong.

There are studs going out of business left right and centre because they cannot sell their stock.  I for one am not going to apologise for wanting to see decent prices gained for stock we have invested time, money, thought and emotion into producing!


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## riversideeu (27 April 2011)

Hi

I am well aware how much it costs to breed a foal having bred for 20 years or more a foal or two a year out of well bred graded warmblood mares. My point was that it is a little unfair to blame hobby breeders for the state of the market when the recession is far more to blame.
I have previously always sold my foals no problem sometimes having a wating list, but working full time I have to sell by 3 at the latest as I have neither the time or facilities to break and bring on my stock. At some point they have to go, and I have found it difficult to get for a 3 year old what I was previously getting for my foals. I am as upset as anyone at the state of the market and have therefore taken the responsible decision to stop breeding until things improve which is very upsetting. Then to find I am being blamed for the state of the market was the final straw.


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## starryeyes (28 April 2011)

I'm new to both the H&H forum & the breeding game but was very interested in the comments about 'hobby' breeders in this post.  Although i work in the industry I am a hobby breeder starting out for the first time this year.
I completely agree that after the time, effort & money alongside often heartbreak that goes into producing quality youngsters its sad that the market for them is so low.  I'm finding it difficult to sell 2 older ponies never mind the babies, but I don't think us hobby breeders can be fully to blame. I'm using a good stallion to a nice mare & can only pray that by the time my baby is a few years down the line the prices have improved. 
The only thing I have noticed when dealing with the stud is that i am treated as a hobby breeder. My feelings are that I have invested just as much as some other breeders into producing a good foal & to be treated differently does not go down well in my books!
I'm praying for some healthy foals on the ground next year!


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## riversideeu (29 April 2011)

Good luck starryeyes in your new breeding venture. Hopefully things will pick up again in a couple of years, they usually do. I have seen downturns before.
I was treated differently at one stud, and even referred to as a hobby breeder which I found uncomfortable. I pay exactly the same as anyone else so should be treated the same. I know people who have bred for the first time out of a much loved mare and the foal has gone on to compete at a high level so even us hobby breeders can breed useful animals.


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## magic104 (29 April 2011)

Us poor hobby breeders really do take some blanket comments.  The market is down for everyone.  If you have to offload a horse then you have to take what the market dictates.  I really dont think a hobby breeder is going to take 1k for a youngster it can get 2k for.


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## Touchwood (30 April 2011)

Once again....I will try to reiteratate.....can anyone tell me what the point of putting a mare in foal is if you are only going to ask £1k for the foal?!  
And once again, I will say....I am trying to convey to BUYERS what they should expect to be paying for a quality youngster.


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## Alec Swan (30 April 2011)

This is an interesting debate.  

I have an interest in the gun trade,  and there is no doubt that those who deal,  as a hobby,  have had a significant effect on the livelihoods of those who would try to earn a living from it.  So it must be,  that with the breeding of horses,  then those who do it for fun,  must affect the professional breeders.

The main reason,  I think,  for the decline in sales is actually because we are in an entrenched recession,  and whilst the hobby breeders aren't helping the situation,  by flooding the market with young stock,  at below their actual cost,  I fail to see how they are solely responsible.

It would also be true to say,  that those studs which are run as a business also receive useful work from the hobby breeders.  The revenue to be gleaned from standing the stallions of others,  AI work,  foaling down the mares of others,  that sort of thing,  should hopefully take a step towards redressing the financial balance.

Last year I thought that those who had the courage to continue breeding,  would be repaid when there was a shortage of youngsters,  when the recessionary affects lifted.  Now I'm not so sure.  This current recession has come on very slowly,  and I suspect that we will be waiting a good few years before we see a marked improvement in trade,  in any sphere,  which is worrying.

There never has been that much of a market for 2 YOs,  and I have never understood why!  Foals will sell,  as will 3 YOs,  the first because they're pretty,  and the second because a start can be made on them.  For those who are certain of what they're looking for,  and at,  I would have thought that a 2 YO would have been bought at a sensible price.

There will always be a market,  for the very best and the worst,  too.  Those who are aiming at the middle market,  the better riding club horses,  for instance,  are those who are,  and will continue,  to struggle.  

I don't have a crystal ball,  but I think that there are probably worse times to come.  I also think,  that for those who are able,  supporting the better run studs,  should be encouraged.  I'm a hobby breeder,  by the way,  and my thoughts are most certainly *not* aimed at apportioning blame.  

Alec.


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## SmilingMadly (30 April 2011)

What about the "stud reduction" sales?  Like that's going to help the market.  IMO the shoe fits on all feet.  Until the horse buying public realise that solid performance horses are being bred in THIS country, then the prices will never be great, esp with cheap imports and the 'fashion' of having an imported horse.  Personally I buy/breed british as much as possible, even down to the food I eat.


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## cruiseline (30 April 2011)

SmilingMadly said:



			What about the "stud reduction" sales?  Like that's going to help the market.  IMO the shoe fits on all feet.  Until the horse buying public realise that solid performance horses are being bred in THIS country, then the prices will never be great, esp with cheap imports and the 'fashion' of having an imported horse.  Personally I buy/breed british as much as possible, even down to the food I eat.
		
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Its a shame that the rest of the buying public in the UK don't have your thoughts. It is getting more and more difficult to sell quality youngsters and I don't think it is purely due to the recession. People seem to want something for nothing now-a-days. There are times when I wonder whether it all worth it.


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## sare_bear (30 April 2011)

Rubbish typed a long reply and lost it!

I agree to a certain extent of what Touchwood is saying. Having read in other parts of the forum, buyers seem to think that they SHOULD be able to get well bred young stock for next to nothing. This really annoys me, as they have no understanding of the costs involved of getting a foal on the ground. On the whole it is cheaper to breed in Europe and buyers there tend to pay decent money for good stock. I think we need to educate the British public that our young stock are not substandard and therefore are not worth less than it has cost the breeder. 

What this has to do with the hobby breeder, I am not 100% sure. I think the recession to an extent is driving the market. Even small studs are having to offload youngstock at reduced prices. Yes, maybe the large professional studs can absorb the costs and have sufficient land to hang on to stock if they fail to get the price they demand, so maybe in this way us the hobby breeder is at present lowering the market for all??

A thought though..
As so many breeders now are leaving mares barren due to the recession, is this likely to lead to a short fall in potential riding club horses coming through in a few years time?? This may hopefully encourage prices to rise in the future, along with educating people that you have to pay for quality foals, not expect to have them for pittance just because they are only foals.


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## Alec Swan (30 April 2011)

SmilingMadly said:



			What about the "stud reduction" sales?  Like that's going to help the market.  IMO the shoe fits on all feet.  Until the horse buying public realise that solid performance horses are being bred in THIS country, then the prices will never be great, esp with cheap imports and the 'fashion' of having an imported horse.  Personally I buy/breed british as much as possible, even down to the food I eat.
		
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I'm another who agrees with the above statements,  specifically that there's a shoe to fit every foot!!

There are Continental breeders who are as capable as we are of producing less than desirable stock.  When an imported youngster is offered for sale here,  it has the supposed ehancement of being A/ Bred on the Continent,  where everything is worth into five figures ))  and B/  that it must be of greater value than the asking price,  or why bother to import it?)).

There's no doubt in my mind,  that whilst we have imported some useful horses,  we've also ended up as a dumping ground,  for many which should have gone for meat!

There may well be the odd Continental stallion which would be needed,  but,  by and large,  the bulk of the stallions which we would need to source,  can be found in this country,  I believe.

Alec.


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## htobago (30 April 2011)

Interesting debate. It sounds as though Touchwood was quoted a bit out of context in the article - what she's saying about prices doesn't sound like an attack on hobby breeders at all to me, as it applies equally to big studs selling off youngstock for much less than they cost to produce.

I have to say that I am truly shocked riversideeu and starryeyes that you have been treated so discourteously by the studs whose stallions you have used. If these studs do not want 'hobby breeders' using their stallions, they should say 'no' to these mares in the first place, not accept your money and then treat you like second-class citizens. 

Accepting mares from 'hobby breeders' and then being disrespectful to them or about them is sheer hypocrisy, as well as frightfully rude.

(I am not *in any way *suggesting that Touchwood is guilty of this, of course - I haven't seen the article but it sounds as though her comments have either been misquoted or misunderstood.)


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## magic104 (30 April 2011)

Touchwood said:



			Once again....I will try to reiteratate.....can anyone tell me what the point of putting a mare in foal is if you are only going to ask £1k for the foal?!  
And once again, I will say....I am trying to convey to BUYERS what they should expect to be paying for a quality youngster.
		
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Probably because they are unable to get more then 1k.  Who is to say how long the animal has been for sale for or what it went on at.  I have a decently put together sane 5yo who is taking everything in his stride.  People just do not/have to pay a price that reflects his quality.  Not every hobby breeder put their mare in thinking that they were either going to have to sell or that the market is not ready to pick up.  It wont be a bad thing anyway as with prices so low it will eventually stop people breeding to sell as it wont be cost effective.  Even the top end of the scale have sold for next to nothing.  A horse dealer had a very good deal from a well know stud, a whole lorry load of youngsters.  So why is anyone still breeding?

I refuse to give my boy away, in the meantime he is costing me, but If I put the work in & get the results then I will put his price up.


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## riversideeu (30 April 2011)

Hi htobago

Have a look at the article if you can.
First they say that hobby breeders keen to offload stock thet cant afford to keep are pulling the whole industry down, which I do not agree with and find a bit insulting, and then they say too many people are happy to sell their stock so cheaply that it drags the whole market down. I for one am definitely not happy to sell my stock cheaply which is why I stopped breeding temporarily last year and will not continue until the market improves. It is a hobby for me but not a loss making one.


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## riversideeu (30 April 2011)

Whilst I am on I must say that I was also a little shocked at the dig the article had about sport horse stud books and gradings, especially considering the stud are standing sport horse stallions.


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## htobago (30 April 2011)

riversideeu said:



			Hi htobago

Have a look at the article if you can.
First they say that hobby breeders keen to offload stock thet cant afford to keep are pulling the whole industry down, which I do not agree with and find a bit insulting, and then they say too many people are happy to sell their stock so cheaply that it drags the whole market down. I for one am definitely not happy to sell my stock cheaply which is why I stopped breeding temporarily last year and will not continue until the market improves. It is a hobby for me but not a loss making one.
		
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I don't have the magazine, I'm afraid, so unless the article is online, I can't actually read it. 

But it seems to me that the distinction is not between 'hobby breeders' and 'large studs', but between responsible breeders (large or small) and irresponsible breeders (large or small). 

It sounds to me as though Touchwood was criticising irresponsible breeders - breeders who carry on producing stock they can't sell (except at 'giveaway' prices) and can't afford to keep - of all shapes and sizes, not just 'hobby' breeders. 

When a reporter tries to summarise a long interview, quotes may be taken out of context and may not give a true reflection of what the interviewee was trying to say. 

I just think that stud owners should be consistent and courteous to all the breeders who use their stallions - and I have heard nothing but good reports of how Touchwood Stud treat breeders, large and small, 'hobby' and commercial, so I very much doubt that any disrespect was intended.

But again, the studs that treated you and starryeyes discourteously because you are 'hobby' breeders are clearly hypocritical.


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## Revena (30 April 2011)

htobago said:



			When a reporter tries to summarise a long interview, quotes may be taken out of context and may not give a true reflection of what the interviewee was trying to say.
		
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Ah, the good old reliable media...


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## Bearskin (30 April 2011)

A good example of how reporters change/enhance/expand/make up the facts to suit their needs is the interview with Vicky Brake in Eventing magazine.  If you do not know her it seems a fairly inocent article.  If you do know her you would understand why she is rather pissed off with the editors or Eventing magazine.  Not a true representation of her as a person or her abilities.


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## Touchwood (30 April 2011)

Thank you HTobago for your considered, balanced and sensible view, which I am not surprised at  You have always put across calm and considered points.

If anyone would like to PM me with any specific concerns rather than make rather distasteful personal attacks, then please feel free.

On the subject of studbooks and gradings, lets be a little clearer here, rather than stating a 'dig'.  I fully support studbooks and gradings ((hence standing graded stallions).  What I think it that grading systems should be more transparant and should publicly state their grading results (fail or pass - mare owners should be able to make their own decisions based on factual information)....does anyone have a problem with this??  I also think that studbooks should publish fertility stats and youngstock grades - again, does anyone think this is a bad idea?  I have come from the bloodstock industry, where all of this information is freely available every single year through Weatherbys - I find it odd that the sportshorse industry cannot provide this information freely to people paying membership fees.


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## magic104 (30 April 2011)

Touchwood said:



			Thank you HTobago for your considered, balanced and sensible view, which I am not surprised at  You have always put across calm and considered points.

If anyone would like to PM me with any specific concerns rather than make rather distasteful personal attacks, then please feel free.

On the subject of studbooks and gradings, lets be a little clearer here, rather than stating a 'dig'.  I fully support studbooks and gradings ((hence standing graded stallions).  What I think it that grading systems should be more transparant and should publicly state their grading results (fail or pass - mare owners should be able to make their own decisions based on factual information)....does anyone have a problem with this??  I also think that studbooks should publish fertility stats and youngstock grades - again, does anyone think this is a bad idea?  I have come from the bloodstock industry, where all of this information is freely available every single year through Weatherbys - I find it odd that the sportshorse industry cannot provide this information freely to people paying membership fees.
		
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100% agree with above


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## Sportznight (30 April 2011)

Touchwood said:



			Thank you HTobago for your considered, balanced and sensible view, which I am not surprised at  You have always put across calm and considered points.

If anyone would like to PM me with any specific concerns rather than make rather distasteful personal attacks, then please feel free.

On the subject of studbooks and gradings, lets be a little clearer here, rather than stating a 'dig'.  I fully support studbooks and gradings ((hence standing graded stallions).  What I think it that grading systems should be more transparant and should publicly state their grading results (fail or pass - mare owners should be able to make their own decisions based on factual information)....does anyone have a problem with this??  I also think that studbooks should publish fertility stats and youngstock grades - again, does anyone think this is a bad idea?  I have come from the bloodstock industry, where all of this information is freely available every single year through Weatherbys - I find it odd that the sportshorse industry cannot provide this information freely to people paying membership fees.
		
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Yep, completely agree with this!  

And also the points made earlier about British Bred!


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## Bearskin (30 April 2011)

I agree with the above


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## woodlander (1 May 2011)

I think there is a need for balance. here. The majority of breeders will be hobby breeders and even the big breeders like ourselves would not do it unless we loved it. We certainly do not do it for a profit. We may make a profit on some but will lose on others.

Some people overprice their youngstock. The price of an animal should equate to its quality (which may be much better than it appears). In Germany and Holland most breeders, at best, break even on their foals until they have bred something, sold it to a "producer" who makes a stallion out of it, and then have the half or full brother or sister to sell. The farmers there breed for fun and interest and because in a mixed small farm they can breed a couple of mares with little major investment beyond a stud fee.

I see breeders over here using indifferent or average mares and then buying the next "designer label" stallion that is going to cost £1000 plus to get a foal with imported semen and then expecting to get £5000 for the foal. This is a good foal price but only if the foal is good enough and you cannot expect the stallions to do all the work. Foal prices in germany and holland for "normal" foals are much lower than here. Think what you are doing.


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## FrodoBeutlin (1 May 2011)

woodlander said:



			Some people overprice their youngstock. The price of an animal should equate to its quality (which may be much better than it appears). 

I see breeders over here using indifferent or average mares and then buying the next "designer label" stallion that is going to cost £1000 plus to get a foal with imported semen and then expecting to get £5000 for the foal. This is a good foal price but only if the foal is good enough and you cannot expect the stallions to do all the work. Foal prices in germany and holland for "normal" foals are much lower than here.
		
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I agree with this completely. I am always shocked when I read comments, on this forum, along the lines of (average) "foal cannot be less than £5k because otherwise I would be making a loss". If the foal is not enough quality, then I am afraid you will have to accept the loss.

In Germany you can buy well-bred foals by State Premium mares & top stallions for very little money, either at auction or privately, because they are normal foals. Yes in those cases the breeder will almost certainly make a loss, but the price has to reflect the quality of the horse, not how much it cost the breeder.


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## mellissa (1 May 2011)

Ok fine- so the attitude seems to me that it is a buyer's market, and no consideration should be given to what it has cost the breeder in the first place.

That is absolutely ridiculous.  We may as well all give up then- I could use the money that I spend on something nice like a new car.  

I could have sold my foal ten times over if I had reduced his price.  The amount of time I have heard "due to the market"... Sod it- I am certainly not going to let anyone use this excuse to get my foal cheap.  Before even coming to see him so many people asked what was the cheapest I would sell for!

People are reducing their breeding activities now- what is the point if they are not making any money?  Well, the market will shoot itself in the foot as supply and demand rules kick in-over the next couple of years prices will increase as breeding decreases.

I understand how difficult times are for everyone- horses are a luxury that cost alot of money to keep.  I am having to make serious cut backs myself, so I can afford to keep my foal until he is older- and sell him later. 

I do not have my own land, and have mine at a Stud farm- I am a hobby breeder- but I will not be dictated to by people trying to get something special for nothing.

I have to agree with Touchwood- as sellers we have the responsiblity to keep the prices up also.


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## FrodoBeutlin (1 May 2011)

Nobody is trying to get special foals for no money; I paid a lot of money for my Belissimo colt, and was happy to do so as he really is spectacular.

The issue is that it is neither fair nor viable to charge a lot of money for foals which have average paces or are "nothing special", just because they cost that amount of money to the breeder.

If, instead of talking about foals/youngsters, we were talking about your average 12yo gelding who is an ok dressage horse competing at Elem-Medium but clearly not able to go any further than that. Would £20k be a reasonable price for him, considering that is probably the amount his owner spent in his lifetime between buying and training costs, livery, competitions, veterinary expenses, farrier visits and so forth? No it wouldn't, if the horse is not enough quality. Why should it be any different with youngsters?


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## MiaBella (1 May 2011)

As FB says, the price should reflect the quality of the foal BUT it also needs to reflect the cost to produce, studs/hobby breeders should not be losing money.  Its easier in some other European countries (possibly Germany but not certain) as some horse breeding is subsidised, so the studs can afford to sell cheaper if the market is low as they will still be getting money from the state. 

The bigger the stud the more able it is to adjust the prices - they can work out their costs, average them across the foals for sale, and reduce the price for those that are lesser quality and raise it on those that are obviously special.  

The hobby breeder is unable to be so flexible, they have their costs to cover (with no government subsidies) so either just do it as a hobby and accept the costs lost or price accordingly.  

However the emphasis should be on the buyer, so many do seem to think they can get a quality youngster for less than £2k.  If the studs don't cover their costs quite simply they will go out of business, they can only live in the red for so long.


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## stolensilver (1 May 2011)

I'm both a buyer of young horses and a hobby breeder so sit on both sides of this situation. From looking at many, many young horses from foals to 3 year olds I'm sure that most breeders only look at their own stock, they don't look at other people's. 

Because of this they price their own best foal at the top of the market and their own average foals at lower prices. (Actually some breeders have all their foals at the same price regardless of quality!) The problem with this is that their own best foal may well be average compared to other foals that are available in the country. Never forget that your buyers will be comparing stud to stud, they won't just look at the horses that you have got for sale. If the quality that you are offering doesn't stand up to the quality other studs are offering then your foals won't sell for the price you are asking. 

This is one of the reasons why I think the Futurity is such a good idea. It helps breeders to see where their youngstock stands in comparison with everyone elses. I just wish more people would bring their 2 and 3 year olds to the Futurity too. I think a high mark for an older horse is worth far more than a high mark for a foal. So much can change from cute, fluffy foalhood to almost grown up adulthood. 

As a small breeder I know how hard it is to sell a foal. Even if that foal is top quality. I sold mine to a serious competition home for slightly more than it cost to produce him. At the moment he's being run on as a stallion prospect so his new owners think he's top quality too. Did I do the wrong thing by selling him relatively cheap? For myself, no, as I don't want to accumulate too many horses and he is in a super home that should fly the flag for my little breeding operation when he is old enough. For other breeders who have high quality foals? Maybe but you can only ever do your best. For me covering my costs and potentially having a horse I bred going through the grades with a good rider is worth a lot more than money. In the long term it should put the value of the foals I breed up.


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## magic104 (1 May 2011)

And the stallion owner covering these mares, they have no contribution to this problem?  Sorry but I dont think I have ever had a stallion owner refuse one of my mares.  They have never enquired about them either.  So while they are happy to take the money, I dont see why hobby breeders should be taking all the flack.  I am more then happy with the 2 boys I bred & when I compare them to some others I see at shows, well I dont deam them as below average at all.  If my last attempt is as nice then I for one will be extreamly happy.  At least my horses are looked after & not just dumped in a field.


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## woodlander (1 May 2011)

Hobby breeders should not be taking any flack as they are the backbone of the industry in every country and for every studbook. Covering costs is the thing and sometimes making a small profit. The Germans say...you make money on a third, break even on a third and loose money on a third. The quicker you cut your losses and take your first profit, the better.

In the past we have sold our horses for a smaller price to a top trainer or rider to be sure that our breeding gets the right exposure. I would not sell a foal "too cheaply" unless I was absolutely desperate but the market rate is the market rate so to avoid this trap you have to breed, potentially, at the premium end. It won't always work and then you have to take the pain quickly, and try again the following year. Breeding is only for the brave but when it goes right and you have a wonderful foal, it is worth every penny.

It comes back to the mares but also to those stallion owners who will be investing in their stallion and supporting their breeders. It is far from being easier for the big studs to cope with the market. The cost of maintaining a large number of horses and staff puts enormous pressure on cash flow. This means sometimes we have to behave like retail stores and cut the price of some stock. The difference is that we know we have to be at least a little business like. There is little subsidy for foal breeding abroad except for the larger concerns where the horse farm is treated as agriculture. This makes little difference to the individual breeder. There used to be subsidy for Hanoverian breeders when the State Stud, Celle, could purchase the top 12 stallions for a price maximum of 100,000 Deutschmarks (about £35,000) and then the stud fees were kept lower. Now, having paid Euros 300,000 for a top dressage stallion his stud fee is Euros 950. No subsidy there!


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## JanetGeorge (1 May 2011)

MiaBella said:



			However the emphasis should be on the buyer, so many do seem to think they can get a quality youngster for less than £2k.  If the studs don't cover their costs quite simply they will go out of business, they can only live in the red for so long.
		
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TOO true!  I've lost count of the number of enquiries I've had from people looking for a nice ID x TB suitable to go eventing, must make 16.2 and have good paces - be 2 or 3 years old - and - my budget is £2,000 (or less!)

This is totally unrealistic!!  A breeder expects to lose money on SOME foals: say the mare has a bad time and runs up a BIG vet bill in the first week after foaling; or a mare is particularly difficult to get in foal!  But you have to make a reasonable margin on the rest!

I estimate that - if not too much goes wrong - it costs me at LEAST £2,000 to put a nice foal on the ground.  Registration documents/passport/microchip/ and for pure-breds DNS testing is at least a couple of hundred pounds more.  And how much does it cost to take a foal from weaning to 2 years - allowing for keep, hay, feed, worming, trimming, vaccinations etc.

Yes - there are cheap horses around, but they're almost always cheap for a reason!  If people want a horse that someone else has made a mess of, that may already have soundness issues, and which has reached the age of 7 or 8 without doing ANYTHING, then they might get it for £2,000!  But if they want a nice, unspoilt youngster that has been properly reared, they have to be prepared to pay a realistic price.


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## woodlander (1 May 2011)

I think there is another point to make here. Do we really want to sell to buyers who cannot afford more than 2K? Buying the horse is the smallest part of their lifetime costs and if they are short of cash how will the worming and trimming be? How will the care and attention be? Not that every horse owner needs to be rich but they do need to have the wherewithall to keep an animal in good and happy health and condition.


It is worth approaching the owner of the stallion that you used and asking whether they will buy your foal. On the continent, the stallion owners buy the best foals by their stallions...they do not breed themselves. Because we are on "catch up" here, our arrangements are different.


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## magic104 (1 May 2011)

JanetGeorge said:



			I estimate that - if not too much goes wrong - it costs me at LEAST £2,000 to put a nice foal on the ground.  Registration documents/passport/microchip/ and for pure-breds DNS testing is at least a couple of hundred pounds more.  And how much does it cost to take a foal from weaning to 2 years - allowing for keep, hay, feed, worming, trimming, vaccinations etc.

Yes - there are cheap horses around, but they're almost always cheap for a reason!  If people want a horse that someone else has made a mess of, that may already have soundness issues, and which has reached the age of 7 or 8 without doing ANYTHING, then they might get it for £2,000!  But if they want a nice, unspoilt youngster that has been properly reared, they have to be prepared to pay a realistic price.
		
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That is exactly right & what I have been telling viewers for my 5yo.  He is sane & ready to go, what more do some of these people want.  I have turned down offers from people who I just know will ruin him.  I think he is cheap enough without dropping the price or selling to someone who cant ride for toffee.  When you do get a decent rider, you then find out the odd one is sadly also nothing more then a timewaster.  Buyers need to get real, especially when they are prepared to take on a horse with no history, or up to date vacs, just because it is cheaper.  Already gave one away, who is doing great, damned if Im going to do it again.


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## SmilingMadly (1 May 2011)

woodlander said:



			It is worth approaching the owner of the stallion that you used and asking whether they will buy your foal. On the continent, the stallion owners buy the best foals by their stallions...they do not breed themselves. Because we are on "catch up" here, our arrangements are different.
		
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And then you get told that even though the colt you have bred is better than anything else they have seen by their stallion, they won't be buying it as they have better mares than yours and can therefore breed their own...  At least that is my experience of the above suggestion.  Turns out that the horse in question is pretty awesome and much admired by people in the know and it's been commented more than once that he should still be entire.  He's a happy gelding, so that's neither here nor there to me.  I've bred a talented horse and am chuffed to bits, but won't breeding a full sibling...


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## dozzie (1 May 2011)

From an outsider's POV (I am not a breeder) I would say one of your issues is imports. 

A decent foal over here will cost upward of 2.5k, a really good one 4.5k +. Yet you can pick up four year olds for only a little more, if not less. Imported. What is the point in buying a foal for 5k? You really have got to sell it to me! And the bottom line is...you dont. Maybe it is an English thing  

Somehow you have to market yourselves better!


We have one or two sales and everyone gives up. Yet we hear of horses at the top having been bought from the Verden Elite Sales...Funny that I should have heard of that one..What have they been doing? I wouldnt buy from there so how on earth do I know about them? Because they market themselves? Or because they are so selective they only take the best?
What about some Elite Sales? It gives a message...Elite...

But make it Elite not an also ran and run it for several years. Pick and choose and have a minimum standard, dont just fill the boxes. 


FWIW I am really glad to see British Breeders upping their game. But it still needs to be upped further to get the money that is going abroad into your pockets. But I still dont have complete faith in British breeding. So give it to me! Shout about what you have achieved!

I am not knocking you at all but sometimes it is hard to see the wood for the trees when you are in the thick of it. Hope it helps a bit to see the POV from the potential buyer!

Woodlander Stud- much as i would love to own one of yours, I couldnt ride it! Maybe one day I will be an owner!


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## jennygw (1 May 2011)

This is a really interesting thread - I AM a 'hobby breeder' expecting my first foal from my lovely British bred mare (who by total coincidence is in foal to Grafenstolz, but before he moved to Touchwood! I'm not biased!!) After nearly reaching the end of her pregnancy, I'm amazed anyone breeds to make money!! This year has cost me more than I ever expected and I AM breeding this foal for myself. Yes, I've used a very fashionable stallion, but only because if  I was going to do this, I felt I should do it properly! So fair play to people that CAN make money from breeding, cause I'm seriously impressed!! However, I do 100% believe in breeding quality. My mare has never been lame a day in 11 years of owning her, has great feet and legs, a super temperament and hopefully I will get a strong healthy foal that will give me years of fun!! Good luck to all you Pros


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## Alec Swan (1 May 2011)

This isn't directed towards any particular breeders on this interesting thread,  but I'm starting to have doubts about what I see,  as the general tone.

Profesional breeders will aim their youngsters at a specific market.  That market is now hugely depleted.  Complaining that buyers have to understand that you cannot produce foals at less than the cost price,  is pointless.  Their argument will be that if you can't supply me with a youngster at the price that I want to pay,  then sell it elsewhere,  and we're all struggling.

Any horse is only worth what a buyer will pay for it.  If it costs the estimated £2k,  which J_G has suggested,  and buyers wont pay that amount,  then that youngster wont sell.  

Considering the estimated £2k,  I wonder just how accurate this is.  For a professional breeder,  let us imagine that they were offered 4 years ago,  a 6 year old mare,  and one of their dreams.  Let us imagine that they paid £6k for her. If she is to produce,  over the next 10 years,  6 foals,  then that's £1k on the head of each foal.  Then there will be the stud fee,  for those who don't keep their own stallions.  If we value,  or spend £500 on a stud fee,  and we then consider the keep costs of the mare,  in total,  and for 12/24 months,  then we can certainly add another £1-2k.  Those who pay rent for their properties will have to apportion a further £? to the cost of each and every foal.  On top of that,  the pro breeders will need to feed themselves and their families.  

In todays market,  that very same £6k mare,  would be turned down by the professional breeder,  as too expensive,  and the very same argument,  which the young horse buyers would use,  would be directed by the pro breeder,  and towards the seller of the mare.  Do you see my point?

Berating buyers,  because they wont pay the asking price is futile.  Why should they,  if they can find the equivalent elsewhere,  and within their budget?

I applaud those who manage to hang on through the difficult times,  but expecting buyers to pay your asking price,  when it's a buyers market,  really isn't being realistic.

I can't change the world,  and neither can you,  and having said that,  I accept that when the committed,  experienced and honourable breeders can no longer continue in business,  then where is the supply to be sourced from?  That one,  I can't answer!!

Alec.


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## bryngelenponies (2 May 2011)

woodlander said:



			I think there is another point to make here. Do we really want to sell to buyers who cannot afford more than 2K? Buying the horse is the smallest part of their lifetime costs and if they are short of cash how will the worming and trimming be? How will the care and attention be? Not that every horse owner needs to be rich but they do need to have the wherewithall to keep an animal in good and happy health and condition.
		
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I can see your point, and how your youngsters are going to be cared for in their futures is of course important to the breeder. However I would not agree that many people who simply do not want to pay more than 2k for a foal are therefore unable to care for the foal properly, who's to say whether they can't afford more than that or just don't want to pay that amount. Surely this would have to be assessed on an individual basis, and not assumed. I for one would not want to spend a huge amount of money on a foal but am perfectly capable of affording on-going care costs such as vets,worming,farrier,dentist,feed- I would do anything I could to cover costs. On-going costs are at least broken up over a period of time, whereas the sale price is quite a lump of money to be spending, and if something major was required I could get the money together. So whilst I totally see your point I think its an unfair question to pose about many buyers out there.


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## magic104 (2 May 2011)

jennygw said:



			This is a really interesting thread - I AM a 'hobby breeder' expecting my first foal from my lovely British bred mare (who by total coincidence is in foal to Grafenstolz, but before he moved to Touchwood! I'm not biased!!) After nearly reaching the end of her pregnancy, I'm amazed anyone breeds to make money!! This year has cost me more than I ever expected and I AM breeding this foal for myself. Yes, I've used a very fashionable stallion, but only because if  I was going to do this,  

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Is there not the danger that if you use a commercial stallion that has no limit on the amount of mares he covers will push prices down for his offspring because there are so many to choose from?  Again supply & demand, the more of them out there would only devalue them surely?  As I think I said, I dont think this is a bad thing in the long run, because hopefully those "hobby breeders" that dont do their homework, who do breed from unsound mares will have to slow down at least.  I cant remember the last time I went to a sale & saw ponies so cheap.


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## jennygw (2 May 2011)

I think that you have totally valid point about over using a commercial stallion and the one I have used does seem to be a bit like Marmite in the love him/hate him opinions! However, for what I wanted to breed, he is a great choice. And I don't want to sell my foal as he/she will be for me to ride and hopefully event. I'm in a lucky place to be able to not worry about the worth of my foal on the market but am not going to breed again from my mare, because I know I couldn't afford to keep breeding the quality I would want to. (that and my mare is very cool & I miss riding her!!)


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## shywhitebadger (2 May 2011)

dozzie said:



			From an outsider's POV (I am not a breeder) I would say one of your issues is imports. 

A decent foal over here will cost upward of 2.5k, a really good one 4.5k +. Yet you can pick up four year olds for only a little more, if not less. Imported. What is the point in buying a foal for 5k?
		
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This ^^^^^


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## htobago (2 May 2011)

I have every sympathy for breeders who are having to sell foals/youngstock for less that it cost to produce them - but I'm just not sure that 'production costs' are necessarily relevant to the price of a horse. 

After all, most people who are selling on, say, an 8yo or 10yo horse that has been trained and competed and so on, or even a child's pony, are highly unlikely ever to get back even a tiny fraction of the money they have spent on keeping, feeding and 'producing' this horse over many years.

Yes, I know that most of these people are not producing horses for a living, but nor are most breeders. And even those who do breed horses for a living can't really expect buyers to take this fact into account. The breeder's mortgage and electricity bills and children's food and clothes are not the buyer's concern.

Should a buyer have to pay more for a foal whose production has cost the breeder more because of, say, foaling complications resulting in unexpectedly high vet bills? If not, then why should they have to take 'normal' production costs into account either?

I really do sympathise with breeders on this, emotionally, but harsh logic is on the buyers' side. There is simply no reason for them to take the breeder's production costs into account when buying a youngster - any more than they would take 10 years of feed, keep, tack, lessons, vet bills, etc. into account when buying a 10yo.

I'm speaking as a stallion owner who does not breed her own foals - but the same logic applies to stud fees: stallion owners have to price these at a level breeders will be prepared to pay, not based on how much the stallion has cost to buy, keep, train, advertise, show, etc.


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## FrodoBeutlin (2 May 2011)

Exactly what I was trying to say, htobago.


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## Holly831 (2 May 2011)

I too am a 'Hobby Breeder'. Having a year off not due to current market but because I had such a traumatic year last year.

I have always been treated well by the studs I have used and they have always been interested (or at least seemed it!) when I send pics of the resulting foals etc.

I have an advantage over a large stud that enables me to sell my foals at a lower price than them (sometimes) as I don't employ any one, I don't pay business rates on my premises, I don't have to advertise, I don't have business insurance...........so my costs have to be less! I will say I don't 'give' my foals away but I am not asking £5k for them either!

Over the years I have profited from breeding horses BUT only if I don't count my time! I never consider it a job or chore and my horses are my stress relief from work. I have kept in touch with every owner of my homebreds and I get great pleasure in hearing what they are doing. The eldest are now backed and out competing and from this (and word of mouth) I have ''pre orders'' for my next foals - provided they are sound etc!! I have currently kept 2 youngsters, one for my daughter to hopefully compete and the other because she is the last youngster from my mare I lost last year and I am being sentimental - I do have a buyer for her when I feel I can let her go though.

Sadly buyers don't see the work that goes in to producing quality, well mannered youngsters and I would hate to have to breed commercially. British breeders need far more recognition no matter how big they are!

I fully support the work of the BEF and will be taking my yearling back to the futurity gradings this year (fully aware he is no longer a cute 7 week old foal but a gangly out of proportion youngster).

I think thei thread started out as a congratulations to Touchwood Stud so I too will end with a congratulations on a great article. I didn't read anything in it as a slur on the hobby breeder!


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## firm (2 May 2011)

Htobago I see what you mean by this and I do agree to a certain extent 
"There is simply no reason for them to take the breeder's production costs into account when buying a youngster" 

however a buyer should take some things into consideration because welfare, basic care and correct papers for a foal are very importent I would say to most foal buyers. These things cost money & if on average buyers are not prepared to meet at least these costs then the ones that lose out will be the foals bred in the future and the only sellers who benefit will be those who cut corners.


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## stolensilver (2 May 2011)

Originally Posted by dozzie  
"From an outsider's POV (I am not a breeder) I would say one of your issues is imports. 

A decent foal over here will cost upward of 2.5k, a really good one 4.5k +. Yet you can pick up four year olds for only a little more, if not less. Imported. What is the point in buying a foal for 5k?"

To me this is comparing apples to oranges. A foal that costs 4.5K+ is not going to turn into a horse that costs the same amount 4 years later unless of course they have developed soundness or temperament issues in the meantime. Top class foals generally turn into top class young horses and they are marketed at £15,000 - £50,000. 

The sort of horse that sells for 3-5K as a 4yo would not sell for 4.5K as a foal. Imported 4 year olds who have an amazing pedigree and who seem to be incredibly talented are being sold cheaply for a reason. I know of several people who have bought cheap imported horses and all of them have ended up with lame horses due to reoccurence of an old injury that was patched up before the horse was imported but that was inevitable to recur (such as suspensory injuries or fracture sesamoid bone). Personally I wouldn't touch a cheap import with the proverbial barge pole.

This is why most breeders aim for the top of the market as this is the only way they can cover the costs of breeding. The problem, of course, is that the number of buyers who are in the top of the market is small. Most people are looking for a riding club horse that can jump 3', hack out safely and do dressage to elementary standard. I don't know of any breeders who aim to breed this sort of horse. The reason being that the perceived value of a riding club horse is well below the cost of producing them and any stud aiming to breed this sort of horse would go bankrupt in months.

I don't think the horse market can continue as it is. When a product is expected to cost less to buy than it costs to produce the market for that product is broken. Many breeders are cutting back on the number of horses they breed. Many breeders are voicing their concerns about the low, low prices their stock are reaching. A compromise needs to be reached where young British bred horses are sold for enough money to allow their breeders to keep breeding and buyers do not expect to get an outstanding quality horse for pennies.


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## woodlander (2 May 2011)

Alec always talks sense. A horse has no value except what someone will pay and the price for which the vendor will sell. A sensible person will know that a well bred and good quality foal will have cost more than £2000 to produce but maybe price will be more important than quality and for the vfendor, cash may be more necessary than profit.

At Woodlander we always try and help our breeders and we do but foals or horses that our from our lines or help to find buyers. We also have horses for amateur riders...they are not all supercharged things. The big advantage is that we know our mother lines and buyers are paying us for that as well as the quality of the foal. That is the premium.


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## JanetGeorge (2 May 2011)

htobago said:



			I have every sympathy for breeders who are having to sell foals/youngstock for less that it cost to produce them - but I'm just not sure that 'production costs' are necessarily relevant to the price of a horse.
		
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AVERAGE production costs certainly should be part of the pricing structure!  And it should be part of the buyer's expectation of what price is 'reasonable'.  Let's face it, if they had to breed a foal for themselves they would have to cover the costs which would be higher than most breeders because of economies of scale.

It never ceases to amaze me that people will cheerfully pay £300 for a 'mongrel' terrier pup - when Mum has been pregnant for 8 weeks, and has had 6 pups, which are saleable at 8 weeks - yet they expect to get a 6 month old foal which has had Mum pregnant for 11 months - and can't be sold earlier than 6-7 months - for under £2,000!  And if the pup is one of the 'fashionable' mongrels (think Labradoodle) breeder may well ask - and get - £700 for it!




			After all, most people who are selling on, say, an 8yo or 10yo horse that has been trained and competed and so on, or even a child's pony, are highly unlikely ever to get back even a tiny fraction of the money they have spent on keeping, feeding and 'producing' this horse over many years.
		
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That's why you can't buy 8 year olds that have been 'professionally produced' - except at top level for big bucks!  Most 8-10 year olds have given their owner a lot of pleasure - and have - effectively - depreciated.  Apart from the very few that are competing at top level, they no longer have 'potential' - except to give an amateur a lot of pleasure (or expense!)




			Should a buyer have to pay more for a foal whose production has cost the breeder more because of, say, foaling complications resulting in unexpectedly high vet bills? If not, then why should they have to take 'normal' production costs into account either?
		
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No - they shouldn't pay more because THAT foal has had unusually high costs - breeders spread the cost of the disasters over the year's crop.  But they SHOULD expect to pay a price that reflects normal cost of production for a decent foal (or expect there to be NO breeders and NO foals in the future.)

[/QUOTE]


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## Pony_Puzz (2 May 2011)

Also those who say people don't want to spend over 2k will not give the horse the best life can be wrong. A lot of people (myself included) have bought horses cheaper than this who practically live at a 5 star hotel. We only buy cheaper horses as its much easier to say "I have a full budget of 4k for a year, now if I buy at say 2k then the rest of the money will go on tack, shows and livery" in an attempt to give it the best life they can. So you have to take that into account, not all people wont be able to afford the living costs, its the fact they have saved the rest of their money.

I agree that it is a buyers market, I do also know a lot of people (who breed their own horses) are losing out on money and its not 100% fair.
Also I can tell you from personal experience, sometimes vet treatments for horses are nothing compared to the costs of small pets.


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## jenki13 (2 May 2011)

woodlander said:



			I think there is another point to make here. Do we really want to sell to buyers who cannot afford more than 2K? Buying the horse is the smallest part of their lifetime costs and if they are short of cash how will the worming and trimming be? How will the care and attention be? Not that every horse owner needs to be rich but they do need to have the wherewithall to keep an animal in good and happy health and condition.
		
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Whenever I've been looking for horses the budget has been £2000, £2500 max. (well my parents budget up till now!) But I can assure you we don't scrimp on any future costs. Paying for worming every 3-6 months & shoeing every 8wks is one thing, paying a lump sum of a few thousand pounds is completely different! 
My parents would be too cynical to pay over £2000 for something that is not even proven to be any good.. or pay more money for a horse than they would for a car!


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## beth123 (2 May 2011)

Touchwood said:



			Thank you guys.  We were thrilled to be asked, its been a stressful last few months, and its a fabulous boost right at the start of the season.

What with the other articles too (including Henk interview and Groomsbridge Stud), it has shaped up to be a fantastic sportshorse issue, well done H&H.  Now could us breeders have a few more column inches on a regular basis please? 

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you're good because you stand harry, who ill be using this year!!!


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## Enfys (2 May 2011)

htobago said:



			Interesting debate. It sounds as though Touchwood was quoted a bit out of context in the article - what she's saying about prices doesn't sound like an attack on hobby breeders at all to me, as it applies equally to big studs selling off youngstock for much less than they cost to produce.

*I have to say that I am truly shocked riversideeu and starryeyes that you have been treated so discourteously by the studs whose stallions you have used. If these studs do not want 'hobby breeders' using their stallions, they should say 'no' to these mares in the first place, not accept your money and then treat you like second-class citizens. 

Accepting mares from 'hobby breeders' and then being disrespectful to them or about them is sheer hypocrisy, as well as frightfully rude.

*(I am not *in any way *suggesting that Touchwood is guilty of this, of course - I haven't seen the article but it sounds as though her comments have either been misquoted or misunderstood.)
		
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I agree with all of this, Htobago got in there (and made more sense than I would have) before I could marshall my thoughts into rational sentences...bang on target there. 

My view is that money is money wherever it comes from, and I imagine a commercial stud relies just as much (?) on covering fees and associated earnings (livery, foaling down etc) as they do on youngstock sales, so it is rather 'cutting off the nose to spite the face' to knock the little people, I can't think that they'd be stupid enough to do it to an owners face even if they thought that privately.


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## jenki13 (2 May 2011)

saxy said:



			No weanling foal or unbroken youngster is PROVEN to be good (whether you are paying £2000, £5000 or £10,000 - this still applies) but it is a fact that well bred foals by graded stallions have more POTENTIAL to be good.

I personally think you'd be taking a far bigger financial risk buying a cheap, mixed-breed horse with no pedigree and investing hard-earned time and money on it, without any idea what it's potential is, than buying something with better prospects, even if it means saving for longer. As the saying goes - "If you pay peanuts, you get monkeys..."


(...off to hide from the gun-fire now)
		
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Don't worry no gun-fire! I get what you mean, although obviously even the best bred can be bad  . I was just making the point that sometimes its hard to justify spending over £2000 on a horse, especially if you not necessarily buying for top performance..


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## normansir (2 May 2011)

As a hobby breeder, who hasn't been active on here for a long time, I feel compelled to say that the service I received from Touchwood was superb. At no time did I feel that I was not being taken seriously even though my choice of stallion was unconventional for the type of mare. Without help and support, from people like Gemma and Dave, us hobby breeders would not be able to enjoy our hobby. I thank them.


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## magic104 (3 May 2011)

saxy said:



			No weanling foal or unbroken youngster is PROVEN to be good (whether you are paying £2000, £5000 or £10,000 - this still applies) but it is a fact that well bred foals by graded stallions have more POTENTIAL to be good.

I personally think you'd be taking a far bigger financial risk buying a cheap, mixed-breed horse with no pedigree and investing hard-earned time and money on it, without any idea what it's potential is, than buying something with better prospects, even if it means saving for longer. As the saying goes - "If you pay peanuts, you get monkeys..."


(...off to hide from the gun-fire now)
		
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Rubbish, I paid £400 for a mare that had cost the owner 2.5k because she was being dumped everytime she rode the "suitable for a novice".  A few years back I bought a reg Welsh A 4yo for £200, got her going & sold her for £1000 a month later.  She had a lot of sucess in lead rein.  My 4yo was sold for rock bottom money because he was still entire, check out his photos & tell me he is a monkey!  A mare I bought last year has turned out to be worth her weight & more in gold, price £350.  So no paying peanuts does not equate to getting monkeys.


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## JanetGeorge (3 May 2011)

magic104 said:



			Rubbish, I paid £400 for a mare that had cost the owner 2.5k because she was being dumped everytime she rode the "suitable for a novice".  A few years back I bought a reg Welsh A 4yo for £200, got her going & sold her for £1000 a month later.  She had a lot of sucess in lead rein.  My 4yo was sold for rock bottom money because he was still entire, check out his photos & tell me he is a monkey!  A mare I bought last year has turned out to be worth her weight & more in gold, price £350.  So no paying peanuts does not equate to getting monkeys.
		
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You can be lucky - if you have a good eye - AND the ability to sort out any problems.  For many riders, that £2.5K mare could have cost them a further £1K or more in re-training fees before they found out it was STILL too much for them.  The 4 yo entire MIGHT have had complications during castration and you could have lost him (not common - but it happens).  Etc, etc, etc.

You can get a genuine bargain - but you can also get a real disaster!  Obviously it CAN happen with more expensive horses too - but it's less likely - particularly if you buy from a reputable breeder who wants to keep their reputation!


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## PuddingandPie (8 May 2011)

I have been absolutely engrossed with this discussion, which appears to have taken on a life of its own..all the more interesting.

I know I will probably be machine gunned..so I am writing this late at night!  But...they valid points...for me... I am not pointing at anyone btw!!

I see many ads for youngsters for sale with big prices because the stallion is well bred...but the mare may have no particular breeding or performance at all and as some breeders will say, they bred from them because "there was nothing else to do with her".   I used to buy one or two foals a year but the quality, at the price I can afford (up to £3500) was getting lower...and the ones I liked were financially non starters for me.

OK so say I buy a foal at 5K....I have to get it through its formative years, unscathed, until backed and then some.   I have a stable full of lovely youngsters that I am asking the same for as I paid for them as foals because I need to reduce numbers due to loss of income to keep them all going indefinitely, and of course the cost of someone producing them to compete under saddle.  Can I sell?   Hell no!

What really annoys me are the people who phone, without even a question to ask, who promptly offer me £500 because that's all they have got!!  Well then yes I would be worried about how they could afford to keep them!

Annoying me even more are those who come in with ridiculous offers because of the recession, but they actually haven't been affected by it..still employed, lower mortgage rates, actually no change at all, but they still want to take advantage of the situation..

OK, rant over for now.  Just one more thing....if all us breeders, professional or otherwise, can't cover our costs or make a profit, why don't we just stop breeding completely?   Of course stallion owners would be up in arms .....oh hang on I just felt a bullet whizz over my head.


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## PuddingandPie (8 May 2011)

BTW Was one of the most interesting H&H issues I have read!


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## Touchwood (8 May 2011)

Interestingly, I just came across this post again as I was sat at my desk looking at the article (I am still pinching myself that someone wanted to write an article about my business that has been my life's dream).

I NEVER actually said 'hobby breeders' .....the paragraph from the article reads as follows (read carefully to see my actual words):

'Like many professional breeders, they do worry that 'hobby breeders' keen to offload stock they can't afford to keep, are pulling the whole industry down.  "Customers don't understand how much a quality youngster costs to produce" says Gemma.  "They don't see the bigger picture - an animal that has been bred and raised carefully is the sort of horse that has a future.  Too many people are happy to sell their stock so cheaply that it drags the whole market down."

So...as you can see I wasn't being derogatory towards hobby breeders at all!  Just goes to show how easily the written word can be misinterpreted!

A large part of our customer base are hobby breeders, and we regularly spend hours of our day showing people round the stud and stallions and discussing the best options for their particular mare.  I actually started as a 'hobby breeder' myself, and in this country, where the industry is very different from Europe, these people are the backbone of the industry (much like grass roots competition funds the higher levels!).  I am not so stupid as to not be able to recognise this.  I don't have the answers I am afraid, what I do know is that we already have some valuable breeding dynasties in this country, and many more being developed - what a shame it would be if studs could no longer afford to build on this and push the British Bred horse onto bigger and better things.


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