# Vet says DON'T take milk from mare b4 foaling....???



## AnShanDan (10 March 2011)

I read a lot of posts in which people are stripping a small amount of fluid from their mares before they foal, to help to get an idea of how soon the foal would arrive. Checking the pH and Ca etc.

I was planning to try this with both my 2 mares (one due 21/04 and the other 7/05) and save  myself a few sleepless nights.

But when I told my vet last week he was horrified!! He says there is a seal on the teat for a reason.

So....now I am thinking I'd better not try this.
Any thoughts??


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## madlady (10 March 2011)

I never do it.  The first bit of milk that is released contains the most colostrum which is vital for the foal.

I'm lucky in that both my mares wax up really well and when the wax comes away on it's own then that is the night that they foal.

I did have one mare who didn't wax at all but we still had a good idea of when she was going to foal from the muscles round her tail.

For me a few sleepless nights are well worth it for a healthy foal that gets all the nutrition that it needs.


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## JoBird (10 March 2011)

I agree with your vet and would never do it, mainly for the colostrum reason. Dont mess with nature unless you have to! Cant wait to see photos of your new arrival x


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## AnShanDan (10 March 2011)

I think that seeing as my own vet has said not to do it: I can't really!! I do respect his advice in general.

I was quite looking forward to the testing tho'. I like a bit of science!

Luckily for me I have plenty of help and the mares are right outside my door so hopefully I will survive a few weeks of not enough sleep.


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## cruiseline (10 March 2011)

I must admit, we don't do it either! All our mares are on cameras and have foaling alarms fitted. We just sit up all night for weeks on end!!!!!!!


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## kerilli (10 March 2011)

I've never done it. However, many mares run milk for some time before foaling, so there is no 'seal' then... i can't see the difference between this milk running down the mare's legs or being milked and saved.


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## Maesfen (10 March 2011)

kerilli said:



			I've never done it. However, many mares run milk for some time before foaling, so there is no 'seal' then... i can't see the difference between this milk running down the mare's legs or being milked and saved.
		
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No, I've never done or intended to do it, I like nature to take its course without me screwing things up and thinking I know better.  Foal will come when it's good and ready, you've waited 11 months, what's a few more days?

I think though, if mare is already running milk, that's slightly different (although you know it shouldn't be long if she's doing that so just have a bit more patience FGS!) but I certainly wouldn't be wanting to encourage her to do that which I feel these tests might do if that makes sense.


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## Simsar (10 March 2011)

We did it for the first time last year, followed the instructions to the letter, and it was useless! mare foaled about 10 hours after last test and it had said the same as it had for two weeks. So back to the old way, cameras & sitting up.


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## Flyingbuck (10 March 2011)

I also have never done it - just cameras and sitting watching by the fire.

If the mare is running milk to any great extent, I would be using frozen colostrum and IgG testing to make sure foal had all the antibodies it needs.


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## cruiseline (10 March 2011)

Flyingbuck said:



			If the mare is running milk to any great extent, I would be using frozen colostrum and IgG testing to make sure foal had all the antibodies it needs.
		
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So would we


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## KarynK (10 March 2011)

I have tested for some years now and the huge advantage for me is that I am able to be where I need to be at the right time as mine are foaled out in a small foaling paddock.

By testing I have found that the colostrum is not present in great quantities until just before foaling.  I have done some studies on my own mares using an equine refractometer and have seen the quality of the colostrum increase considerably just before foaling.

Here is a picture of the milk or fluid present when I have started testing, you can see it is not milk but fluid and this hardly registers on the refractometer.






The amounts used for testing are unlikely to affect a foals intake of colostrum, in fact like many breeders I strip some off for freezing for future foals if they get into difficulties as there is nothing like the real thing form the same locality.

The advantages to me are that in testing the mare becomes used to having her udder and teats prodded and squeezed just like a foal will, but more gently!  Particularly with maidens this desensitises them for when the foal takes its first feed.  It also lets down the teats so it is easier for the foal to find and latch onto and it means that I can milk the mare in an emergency without stressing her.  I only test using one teat so the others seal is in tact.  I clean my hands and use a wipe to clean the teat before and after drawing the liquid. Interestingly the "seal" is not there when I start testing and closer to foaling it is often back by the next test! 

By far the biggest advantage is that in using the refractometer close to birth I can assess the quality of the colostrum and can call the vet in if something is wrong (thankfully so far all of mine have been off the scale of excellent). 

I cannot see that testing is any different to a mare dripping a little milk before foaling.

This is how the liquid changes a few days prior to birth as colostrum starts to build on the refractometer. (Sorry about the fuzz)


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## SmilingMadly (10 March 2011)

Maesfen said:



			I think though, if mare is already running milk, that's slightly different (although you know it shouldn't be long if she's doing that so just have a bit more patience FGS!)
		
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Flyingbuck said:



			If the mare is running milk to any great extent, I would be using frozen colostrum and IgG testing to make sure foal had all the antibodies it needs.
		
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Don't be so quick to judge, sometimes milking prior to foaling can save time and money and I don't mean by doing these tests.


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## Flyingbuck (10 March 2011)

SmilingMadly said:



			Don't be so quick to judge, sometimes milking prior to foaling can save time and money and I don't mean by doing these tests.
		
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I only speak for myself here, but I cannot logically see how you can interpret what I have written as my being "quick to judge"

What I stated is what I would do if a mare of mine had been running a significant amount of milk, not telling/judging anyone else, merely sharing what my actions would be if those circumstances presented themselves to me.


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## hayinamanger (10 March 2011)

I would never milk a mare before foaling, science or not, it is, in my opinion, interfering with nature.  Agreed, some mares run milk before foaling and that can be dealt with by igg testing the foal and a plasma transfusion if necessary but milking a mare before foaling has no benefits from where I'm standing.


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## AnShanDan (10 March 2011)

Thanks everyone.

I seem to have stirrup a bit of debate: sorry!!


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## Whizz105 (10 March 2011)

Drawing a small amount from my mare has saved me many nights sitting up the yard. I also did it with her first pregnancy without any Ill effect to mare or foal. I doubt there are statistics showing this causes problems for the foal with the amount of breeders that do it.

The amount the mare "drip" before foaling, out measures the amount drawn in my opinion.

Would an experienced vet talking to an experienced breeder say that..?


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## AnShanDan (10 March 2011)

Whizz105 said:



			Would an experienced vet talking to an experienced breeder say that..?
		
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Totally admit I'm not an "experienced breeder" but my vet has done a lot of equine work including studs for about 40 years!! So probs. counts as experienced


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## woodlander (10 March 2011)

We tried the milk test on two mares last year and were rather confused by the results. Not much alternative to sitting and watching.

However, good tip as we have had mares who can run a quantity of milk for several days. You SHOULD save this milk and freeze it in case she has run off her colostrum. You can then give to the foal when it arrives.


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## Gucci_b (10 March 2011)

If you were to freeze the colostrum...  when could or should you give it to the foal. i;e... when the milk has defrosted, or do you leave at room temperature, defrost in the microwave???? just asking as I like many others don't know


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## hayinamanger (10 March 2011)

Gucci_b said:



			If you were to freeze the colostrum...  when could or should you give it to the foal. i;e... when the milk has defrosted, or do you leave at room temperature, defrost in the microwave???? just asking as I like many others don't know
		
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Colostrum is notoriously tricky to heat up, it is best to put it (in the container it has been stored in) in a bowl of warm water and let it gently defrost and warm through.  Heating too quickly in a saucepan on the cooker, or worse, in a microwave, causes it to curdle and become unusable.


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## Touchwood (10 March 2011)

Karyn K, couldn't agree more with you.  The amount stripped off is tiny, and is not even colostrum (it has nothing to do with the 'first' amount coming out - it changes to colostrum just before the mare foals).  
We did milk tests last year - will definately be doing them again!  (All our mares are also under camera, so its just an extra little thing for us).  Without exception, last year, all our mares went by the letter to the milk tests.  We used the ones from Future Sportshorse, I know there are alternatives and they don't seem to be as accurate from what I have heard.  Actually though...once you have been doing it for a while, the consistency and colour of the fluid drawn off means you already know what your test is going to say, so you could do without the actual tests.


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## KarynK (10 March 2011)

Yes I have learnt so much since I started doing it, it's fascinating and where mine foal out you can see from the levels that they power down at least two days before the BBC announces a wet spell!!!  They have tended to pick the very start of a period of good weather to foal so they must be very sensitive to air pressure changes.

Mine live as naturally a life as possible and I only have a few so that is practical for me.  But at the end of the day they are domestic horses and I could not live with myself if I lost a mare or foal for taking that concept too far and for the sake of a few drops of liquid I can make a very good  assessment of their likely foaling date and more importantly assess any need for an IG test before I let someone stick a needle into a newborn with little or no immunity.


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## Alec Swan (10 March 2011)

Whilst I'm not entirely convinced just how useful a tool this milk testing malarky is,  I'll try most things once.

This afternoon I had the Dear Girl hold our 5 in-foal mares,  one at a time,  and distract them,  whilst I made an attempt at touching their bags.  I was cautious,  you will understand,  and if they'd been able to reach me,  then every single one of them would have launched me into orbit!!  

My honest opinion?  When I see the larger studs using them,  then I may persevere,  but until then,  I'm sorry but I see them as a gimmick.  Assuming that you trust them,  then they'd probably be a bit of fun for the single mare owner.  They aren't infallible,  whilst time and eyes are. 

Alec.

Ets,  I'd also be with the vet who says "Leave well alone".  a.


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## GinnieRedwings (10 March 2011)

Hear hear Karyn!

I did milk test last year for the first time, after reading Karyn's experience on here and followed the method outlined on here: http://www.yellowhouseranch.com/foaling.htm

Here are the results:

2008 foal - No milk testing. I camped out for 2 weeks in the paddock, with an hourly check throughout the night. By the time she foaled, I was just popping home to put my daughter to bed and grab some dinner - came back to wet foal on ground...

2010 foal - milk testing from the time fluid could be extracted. When the pH level hit 6.5, I slept 1 night in the paddock & she foaled the next evening. I was there to attend - thankfully as she ran into trouble and I would have at least lost the foal if I hadn't been there to help.

Would I milk test again? You bet!

eta: Alec, as a one-mare owner, with a full time job and a young family, I can vouch for the fact that it was not just a way to keep myself entertained , it was a life saver!   only a small exageration here  though I did cry when after nearly losing my sanity on foal watch in 2008, I missed the birth anyway


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## Touchwood (10 March 2011)

Alec...we probably count as a 'larger stud'.  Believe me, my husband, who is an old school bloodstock stud man took some convincing by me to trust the milk tests (as do most people in bloodstock....why do you think they still don't do AI?!), but he is a total convert - we were amazed by the accuracy.  We will never replace good old sitting up, there really is no other 100% way to know, and we have a responsibility towards our client's horses, but it was nice to have another way of knowing that 'tonight really was the night'!


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## mellissa (10 March 2011)

Everyone told me to stop fiddling- at 245 days my mare developed a bag.  Far too early by all accounts- and I couldnt help myself but check- I had to know.  Water like fluid ejected- certainly not like the colour I put on my cornflakes.

I shamefully checked the odd bit at times thereafter-  the words placentitis and £900 worth of regumate and antibiotics later, made me a little paranoid.  

I tell you though, the morning I took a little squeeze and the fluid was white, I nearly had a heart attack! Mare was fine and a beautiful colt was born that night.

Having said that, I never milked my mare per se- a fly couldnt have lived off it let alone dip
any litmus papers in it!!  I just tried to think if I were pregnant I wouldnt want my boobs squeezed!! 

X


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## AJBliss (10 March 2011)

We do the milk testing, but not as a stand-alone.  We know our mares, and monitor them closely for changes to their body and behaviour, as well as having them on camera.  The milk testing simply helps reduce our sitting up for each mare (we don't have a massive herd) from several weeks down to a few nights, maximum.  I'm another one who doesn't really need the testing, per se--after doing several, I got better at telling the appearance and texture of the milk of a mare that is imminent.  I do like the numbers just to back up what I observe.  I have spoken with several vets who all support milk testing, including specialist stud vets.  As others have said, you only use a small amount of the mammary secretions, which really aren't proper colostrum yet until the very end.  If you don't take precautions, you CAN introduce pathogens which could result in mastitis, which is likely what your vet was concerned about.
The tests available through FSH are great.  We have found that pairing a calcium test with a pH test is even better than testing calcium alone.


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## Spring Feather (11 March 2011)

Like many others on this thread I've milk tested for years.  There is no way I would ever go back to weeks and months of staying awake every hour, every night and every day with all of our mares.  Milk testing has transformed foal watch for us and for my breeding customers as once that ph hits the magic 6.2 I can let them know that their babies will be arriving within the next however many hours and that they can come and watch the births.  It works great for my clients as many are professionals who would otherwise miss the births of their foals without the accuracy of milk testing.

There is nothing wrong with not milk testing, I personally couldn't be bothered with all those sleepless nights, so if that is what they prefer that's just grand too


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## cruiseline (11 March 2011)

Well, after reading all your posts, I might be tempted to give it a go this year!!! Can someone give me a link to where the (accurate) strips can be purchased. Although I will still have the cameras, monitors and sleepless nights, not paranoid at all


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## cruiseline (11 March 2011)

mellissa said:



			I just tried to think if I were pregnant I wouldnt want my boobs squeezed!! 

X
		
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That made me giggle


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## AJBliss (11 March 2011)

cruiseline said:



			That made me giggle
		
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LOL me too!


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## Spring Feather (11 March 2011)

Maesfen said:



			No, I've never done or intended to do it, I like nature to take its course without me screwing things up and thinking I know better.  Foal will come when it's good and ready, you've waited 11 months, what's a few more days?
		
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I hope my reply does not come across as rude, it is not intended to 

You sound like you do not understand milk-testing?  Milk testing does not speed up foaling.  It does not alter the course of foaling.  What it does is gives you chemical readings.  In the same way as ultrasounds tell you whether there is a heartbeat or whether the mare has ovulated or is about to ovulate.  Milk testing is a tool just like ultrasounding.  It gives you information, that's all.  The foal will come when the foal is ready.  For people with only 1 or 2 broodmares, who maybe don't mind being awake every hour for 24 hours a day for a week or two that's fine and not a very big deal.  For those of us who have many mares foaling I can assure you it makes a terrific difference.  I foal watch alone.  If I did not have milk testing then I would probably be dead by June


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## Spring Feather (11 March 2011)

cruiseline said:



			Well, after reading all your posts, I might be tempted to give it a go this year!!! Can someone give me a link to where the (accurate) strips can be purchased. Although I will still have the cameras, monitors and sleepless nights, not paranoid at all 

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You don't need anything special.  You will need swimming pool strips which show ph and calcium (hardness).  You need to get the strips which go down to 6ph (many don't go that low) and you need the calcium strips to go up to 800 or more.  You need a bottled of distilled water and a mare   You take 1cc of milk from the mare and you mix it with 6cc of distilled water.  You stick your strips in, take them out and take the reading.  Mares in the last week or so will read at between 7ph and just over 8ph.  The calcium often rests at 200-300.  The calcium is usually the first thing to go up, how high, really depends on the individual mare.  I have one mare who goes up to 700 but will not foal at that level until her ph reads at 6.2ph.  Mares will usually foal within 24 hours once they drop down to 6.2ph.

I have cameras too.  I use all the usual signs to gauge foaling also.  What I don't have is 90 days of no sleep


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## Mugsgame (11 March 2011)

Spring Feather said:



			I hope my reply does not come across as rude, it is not intended to 

You sound like you do not understand milk-testing?  Milk testing does not speed up foaling.  It does not alter the course of foaling.  What it does is gives you chemical readings.  In the same way as ultrasounds tell you whether there is a heartbeat or whether the mare has ovulated or is about to ovulate.  Milk testing is a tool just like ultrasounding.  It gives you information, that's all.  The foal will come when the foal is ready.  For people with only 1 or 2 broodmares, who maybe don't mind being awake every hour for 24 hours a day for a week or two that's fine and not a very big deal.  For those of us who have many mares foaling I can assure you it makes a terrific difference.  I foal watch alone.  If I did not have milk testing then I would probably be dead by June 

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I am finding this thread interesting on so many fronts  

Firstly the slightly less important but more niggly issues!!  There seems to be a mentality with some people on the forum that all owners with "one or two broodmares" have nothing better to do during the season than sit around watching their mares lol!  Perhaps this may be true for a handful, but I should imagine most have proper day jobs to fund themselves as well as their horses or have a busy family or own business too - doing something other than foaling down.  I would doubt the decision to sit up 24/7 is taken lightly!   

I would also suggest that a good number of smaller herd owners actually are quite knowledgeable and do understand the basis of milk production!  It is a shame that issues like this can show such a lack of tolerance between the different schools of thought!  Sometimes we just have to accept that people have their own ways of doing things which are working for them!  It is great to discover new things - but it is all down to personal oppinion at the end of the day!

Interesting point made earlier about dragging TB studs into the 21st century (along with AI  ) maybe some do milk test at this time while many don't - maybe in the future they will, maybe they wont - but given the amount foaling in these big studs and the potential value of the animals involved, combined with the fees being paid by the owners I can't see that in this instance it would reduce the amount of sitting up going on, especially when people are employed to do exactly this.  Watch everything close to foaling like a hawk, 24/7.

Right!  On a personal note, the testing does interest me - it looks quite helpful in many respects.  One question I have though - has noone had a mare catch them out and foal early, with an undeveloped bag - that you weren't watching because the tests said it was safe?  It must take a fair bit of trust in them?  Be interested to hear more about this!


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## Maesfen (11 March 2011)

Spring Feather said:



			I hope my reply does not come across as rude, it is not intended to 

You sound like you do not understand milk-testing?  Milk testing does not speed up foaling.  It does not alter the course of foaling.  What it does is gives you chemical readings.  In the same way as ultrasounds tell you whether there is a heartbeat or whether the mare has ovulated or is about to ovulate.  Milk testing is a tool just like ultrasounding.  It gives you information, that's all.  The foal will come when the foal is ready.  For people with only 1 or 2 broodmares, who maybe don't mind being awake every hour for 24 hours a day for a week or two that's fine and not a very big deal.  For those of us who have many mares foaling I can assure you it makes a terrific difference.  I foal watch alone.  If I did not have milk testing then I would probably be dead by June 

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No, it's not rude but does sound a bit condescending TBH.

I understand milk testing but choose not to use it simply because I am fortunate enough to be here 24/7 and I only have one, three at most, mares in foal in any year and even rarer if they're all together.  I don't see the point of spending money on strips when it only tells me what I can see or feel myself.  For me, I'm very lucky, it is not a chore to stay up watching and having done it for over 20 years, I'm pretty tuned into my mares so don't have many higgledy piggledy nights.  
For anyone, like you, who has several to foal and alone or they have day work to deal with too, I understand how helpful they might be but it would be wrong to pretend to novice breeders (as many on here are) that they are the be all and end all and anything other than a helpful tool, a guide only, because they are not infallible (as we've heard already) and nothing beats knowing your mare's usual behaviour and using your eyes.

BTW, took me a long time to get around to using a computer too!


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## KarynK (11 March 2011)

Mugsgame said:



			Interesting point made earlier about dragging TB studs into the 21st century...

Right!  On a personal note, the testing does interest me - it looks quite helpful in many respects.  One question I have though - has noone had a mare catch them out and foal early, with an undeveloped bag - that you weren't watching because the tests said it was safe?  It must take a fair bit of trust in them?  Be interested to hear more about this!
		
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Sorry been watching those awful sights of those poor people in Japan, I do hope the studs will not be affected!

Actually it was the UK that undertook the original study in the 1980's that led to using Ca testing!!  It's just the Americans saw an opportunity and went for it!!

Only one of mine ever have avoided me totally, Pre using testing strips I fell asleep after three and a half weeks of waiting in April and it was drizzling at 12pm, she had the foal right outside the caravan window, the rest of the herd whinnying woke me up!!  

One was born in the 15 mins I had in the caravan drinking something hot, she shoved the foal out quick with no visible signs at all, but thanks to the strips I was at least very close, I missed her by a minute or two at the most as they were resting and the foals hind legs were not yet out.  

Even if a mare is under-producing fluid  my guess is that the body will still be getting the mare ready and that even if there is little liquid an attempt will be made to produce milk of some kind, I don't know for sure no one really does, but after having used these methods over a number of years I do trust them enough to know when to start seriously staying up through the night and that has never been more than a day or so once the levels are hit.

Also it allows you to see what is actually happening with the milk, something the traditionalists will not see as it is something that is not visible unless you test.  Visible external signs are ok but are notoriously erratic and can start quite early, my TB's muscles slacken a full month before she foals, no amount of caffeine will get me through that.

But they are not a cure all and are part of a set of signs that tell you to insert the caffeine drip, turn on the cameras and fit the foaling alarm and are a valuable tool in that set.

I use softcheck strips that I get from the USA 
http://www.kimdon.com/sofchek_milk_test_strips.php

The refractometer a very useful piece of kit and not expensive, this I would not be without I got from here (I always do a double take at the name when I get an email!!!)
http://www.arssales.com/equine/html/epfo-refractometer.html 
I actually sent mine to a friend on holiday who brought it back for me (yes I am a cheapskate) They also do kits but I have not tried these
http://www.arssales.com/equine/html/epfo-predictafoal.html


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## Touchwood (11 March 2011)

Mugsgame, I quite agree, they won't do it in the TB studs because they employ people specifically to sit up, so why spend more money on testing.

Our mares are ALL under camera from 320 days anyway, so we certainly don't rely on it (and I never would - just the same as I don't use foaling alarms, bloody useless things!  ), but for us, it gave a nice extra indicator.  We always have one person watching, but for instance, when the milk test showed a mare was very imminent, we made sure we had two people on site in case of problems.

You don't need actual milk or wax to test, it is the mammary secretions, so a small bag is not necessarily a massive problem.


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## Spring Feather (11 March 2011)

Maesfen said:



			No, it's not rude but does sound a bit condescending TBH.
		
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I'm sorry you found my reply so.  I genuinely thought it might have been informative to you and the others who seemed to hold the belief that milk testing speeds up foaling.    

I am here 24/7, this is my business.  I obviously use every other sign, just as I have done for the past 25 years.  I use cameras and I have used monitors in the past, however when milk testing came along many years ago I tried it and it worked so I continue doing it.  My clients want to be able to see their foals born and there is no way possible that anyone can categorically say the foals will be born within 24 hours using normal visual or physical channels.  Milk testing allows this, hence my clients who desire so, get to see their foals born.

As I said, it's just grand if people don't want to milk test and it's equally as grand if people do.


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## cruiseline (12 March 2011)

This is a very interesting thread.

I do however think it is a bit harsh to judge others way of doing things, when it quite obviously works for them, their clients and most importantly their mares, be it using milk strips or not.

I personally have never used milk strips, but I am seriously considering giving it a go this year. Especially on one of our mini mares, who despite sitting up for days, has for the past two years managed to have her foal when I was not looking!!!!!!!!! Last year there were no signs what so ever, so we popped out at 7:30pm for a quick bite to eat. We were back in the yard before 9:00pm and there was a dry foal and a cleansed mare!!! The year before we had just gone into the kitchen for dinner at 8:30pm again no signs. When we went back into the lounge, no more than 30 mins later the foal had already been born. She is a little minx 

One of our grooms is desperate to see a foal born and for the past two years she has missed everyone. By the time she arrives in the yard, the foals were already on the ground. It sounds like she might get to see one if I can tell her "it will be tonight".


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## AnShanDan (12 March 2011)

I started this thread in all innocence and I seem to have stirred up a lot of debate 

I asked the original question because I was surprised at my own vet's reaction to the idea of testing the milk. His only problem seemed to be that it would take away the "seal" on the teat.

My vet knows that I am a farmer's wife, with calving and lambing experience, and many years of horse ownership. He is very relaxed about me foaling the mares in general.

From what everyone who does carry out this type of testing has said, this is not actually a problem in practice. No mares seem to be suffering ill effects from having a ml or 2 of fluid taken for testing.

All I was trying to do was to save myself weeks of lack of sleep and worry. I have several horses and ponies, a family and a full time job, so anything that makes it easier to predict when the mares will foal must be a good idea!

I think I will try the testing. I will also have the mares on camera and my stables are about 20m from my back door. I have already been handling their udders and they are fine about it. 

I think for me the advantages of getting a better idea of the chances of foaling and so being able to be sure of being there to assist if nec., outweigh the disadvantages of testing the milk.

Hopefully I will  be able to report with positive feedback and photos of the girls and their foals .


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## Gucci_b (12 March 2011)

Well I'm certainly going to give milk testing ago  This thread is very interesting and very helpful to someone like myself and others on here who does not want to miss the foaling as I don't really want to be staying down the yard weeks on end. Maybe the milk testing might work for us too !!! nothing ventured nothing to gain


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