# Ribbleton training - what is it?



## soloequestrian (29 December 2019)

Anyone know what this is?  It seems to be free but I'm wary of signing up.  The thing that interested me in the ad was this 'Why we *disagree* with both positive & negative reinforcement, and Paulette’s unique alternative approach'.  Positive and negative reinforcement are the basis of learning, whether environmentally reinforced or by another animal.  How can they disagree with them?  Should I just sign up to find out??


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## Bangagin (29 December 2019)

I registered my email address and watched the webinar (which was free) and was then offered a follow up call, but haven't taken up that offer. I imagine you are then given all the information about what they can offer and the cost of mentoring during that phone call.


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## soloequestrian (29 December 2019)

So it would be reasonably safe to sign up for the webinar then....?


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## Bangagin (30 December 2019)

I would say so - although I'm not sure how useful it was.


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## Highflinger (30 December 2019)

I took up their offer for a follow up phone call. They asked basically the same few questions about my relationship with my horse in various different ways for about an hour. To be honest felt quite bored after a hour of being asked the same question over & over again. Then came the cost............it was Australian dollars & they could not tell me the sterling equivalent - can't quite remember the exact cost but it worked out to be a LOT more than I paid for my horse. He was £3k . I honestly cannot believe anyone would sign up but I suppose some must do!!
Although I think on line courses have their place for the cost of Ribbleton you could have many many hours with a real instructor.


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## Bonnie Allie (31 December 2019)

My husband who is a professional horse trainer in Sydney had a client who went to them for training.   The client is intelligent, well educated lady with a deep scientific background as a career.  She didn’t feel she got a lot out of it and was frustrated by the lack of transparency In the method.

As with all trainers, you need to be able to check on formal qualifications, credentials and understand their proposed frameworks/methodologies.

im all for innovation, but it must have some solid reasoning behind it before I’m convinced.   

Maybe searc for some reviews on their services?


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## soloequestrian (31 December 2019)

I'm not fussed about doing the training, I'm just interested to know what they think is not either positive or negative reinforcement - in my view everything is, just the reinforcer varies!


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## bluedanube (31 December 2019)

soloequestrian said:



			I'm not fussed about doing the training, I'm just interested to know what they think is not either positive or negative reinforcement - in my view everything is, just the reinforcer varies!
		
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don’t forget negative and positive punishments though. a lot of training use these.


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## soloequestrian (31 December 2019)

bluedanube said:



			don’t forget negative and positive punishments though. a lot of training use these.
		
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I suppose that's the focus of my question - is this Ribbleton thing just using terms incorrectly?  You can have positive and negative appetitive and aversive reinforcers.  As far as I can see you can't have anything else other than I suppose neutral which would inherently have no effect so couldn't be classed as part of training....


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## Highflinger (30 January 2020)

Exactly my experience Toodledo. Who on earth would pay than for an online training programme? Although I think some on line courses are very good TRT for example for £4K you could have many hours with a Real instructor


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## Toodledo (30 January 2020)

Highflinger said:



			Exactly my experience Toodledo. Who on earth would pay than for an online training programme? Although I think some on line courses are very good TRT for example for £4K you could have many hours with a Real instructor
		
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Exactly! I could have hours and hours of instruction, go to couple of clinics, buy a new horse...  and still have enough for a holiday! 

It was all sales speech, sounded great but nothing actually that meant anything. Definitely one to avoid!


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## DottyHorse (16 April 2020)

It's interesting to read your thoughts and I too watched the webinar, had the call and took the plunge mid last year. And I can 100% say is it's worth every penny and more - in fact to me and the each week what I'd hear the other students sharing about the profound changes in their lives was priceless. On the call I remember the lady talking about it being a transformation. I don't think you can even comprehend what that means unless you do it. The call was challenging for me because I had to take a deep look at myself. But it felt right so I decided to follow my heart and I'm so glad I did. It's real, don't doubt that for a minute but it's more than you could ever imagine. They have a face book group where you can hear Paulett (who owns it) on videos and many students sharing their stories.


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## Gingerwitch (17 April 2020)

DottyHorse said:



			It's interesting to read your thoughts and I too watched the webinar, had the call and took the plunge mid last year. And I can 100% say is it's worth every penny and more - in fact to me and the each week what I'd hear the other students sharing about the profound changes in their lives was priceless. On the call I remember the lady talking about it being a transformation. I don't think you can even comprehend what that means unless you do it. The call was challenging for me because I had to take a deep look at myself. But it felt right so I decided to follow my heart and I'm so glad I did. It's real, don't doubt that for a minute but it's more than you could ever imagine. They have a face book group where you can hear Paulett (who owns it) on videos and many students sharing their stories.
		
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Wow a new users first post recommending this system are you by any chance on their sales team ?


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## DottyHorse (17 April 2020)

Gingerwitch said:



			Wow a new users first post recommending this system are you by any chance on their sales team ?
		
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 Actually I jumped on here to try to get some help for my mare's thrush and then found this thread. I wish I worked for them, but alas I'm 71 years of age and retired now. If I was younger I'd jump at the chance. As I said, what they do is truly wonderful.


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## Talla Tee (17 April 2020)

I'm a newbie to this forum & I was amazed at the negativity surrounding this post from those not prepared to try first before knocking it

I spent 6yrs trying to "fix" my horse's aggressive behaviour
Last yearR Ribbleton presented in my life at a time when euthanasia was looking like my only option
I took the discovery call because there's nothing to lose in just taking a call... right?
There were tears because being vulnerable with your personal story to a stranger over the phone is daunting
Its a 10wk course & I nearly backed out because of the cost but when I thought about what my horse means to me I bit the bullet & signed up!!
Ribbleton is a lifestyle NOT a step-by-step method In 10wks you can transform ALL the negativity from your life not just around your horse
There are no repeat customers because you DON'T go back to old habits (if you're totally committed to living in the moment)
I am a graduate I DO NOT work for them or their sales team
I just wanted this thread to hear from someone who took the plunge & enriched their life with Ribbleton & my horse has never been so understood 🐴


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## Frankiw (17 April 2020)

Gingerwitch said:



			Wow a new users first post recommending this system are you by any chance on their sales team ?
		
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I’m not on anyones sales team but as a graduate of the initial course and a student of a follow up course, I can honestly say this system works...and I have tried a lot of different methods.


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## Frankiw (17 April 2020)

soloequestrian said:



			I suppose that's the focus of my question - is this Ribbleton thing just using terms incorrectly?  You can have positive and negative appetitive and aversive reinforcers.  As far as I can see you can't have anything else other than I suppose neutral which would inherently have no effect so couldn't be classed as part of training....
		
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Have you ever seen that episode of The Big Bang Theory where Sheldon tries to condition Penny with chocolate treats? (Work with me here, I have a valid point). When she finds out she is devastated, diminished and really mad. He says that it was nicer than the alternative (electric shock treatment) to which Leonard and Penny are horrified and even more mad. The outcome was that Penny and Sheldon had to communicate better and reach agreements to improve their relationship. Do you see how this works? Neither positive, nor negative reinforcement to improve the cohesive bond between two parties who work together.


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## Coryn (17 April 2020)

Rippleton is where you learn to TRULY Conect with your horses .! ! Not show and shine with ribbons . It teaches you how to be truly grounded and how to communicate with your animals ! Most people can connect with their dog and no what they are saying . Imagine doing that with your horse ! That’s what Rippleton training is about , it’s the conversation. If you are all about getting your horse to a show, no matter what ,and winning that ribbon it’s probably not for you .  And no I don’t work for them . I enjoy the conversation with my animals and the positive changes  I have made in my life because of RIPPLETON TRAINING . Xx


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## Goldenstar (17 April 2020)

Many of us can connect with horses with out paying £££ ‘s to people we don’t know on the internet .


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## TPO (17 April 2020)

In the space of four hours there are four brand new posters who's only posts are to say how life transforming paying 4k for an online training course is 🤔 <slow hand clap>


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## Goldenstar (17 April 2020)

Let’s do our top tips for connecting with your horses .
I will start .

Dont ever expect  emotional support from a horse that special bond with a horse develops ,if it develops,  over time .
its disrespectful to horses to expect this from them .


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## Gingerwitch (17 April 2020)

Top Tip 2

If you have a shod horse they may struggle to swipe the I-Phone without damaging the glass, so you are better off with the old style Nokia, but it does need really big buttons for them to press


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## Tarragon (17 April 2020)

I just wanted to say that there is nothing wrong with people joining the forum to add their comments about something that they have experience of, if they feel it is being misrepresented. Whatever it is or how much it costs.


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## TPO (17 April 2020)

Tarragon said:



			I just wanted to say that there is nothing wrong with people joining the forum to add their comments about something that they have experience of, if they feel it is being misrepresented. Whatever it is or how much it costs.
		
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I agree but it does raise suspicion when 4 new people appear praising a questionable product on a 3mth old thread.

Attempts at stealth marketing happen fairly often on this forum


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## Cortez (17 April 2020)

Tarragon said:



			I just wanted to say that there is nothing wrong with people joining the forum to add their comments about something that they have experience of, if they feel it is being misrepresented. Whatever it is or how much it costs.
		
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This is completely true. But there is a lot wrong with a sales team for an extremely expensive and frankly spurious load of old waffle doing so. Go away strange marketing woo woo bots.


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## DabDab (17 April 2020)

One of them doesn't even seem clear on the name...


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## Daisy H (17 April 2020)

Wow! New users enter the saloon. The music stops. Well-known members turn from the bar and eye them suspiciously. ‘You’re not welcome here.’ ‘We don’t like you.’ ‘Coming here with your fancy foreign ideas.’ ‘We’re gonna shoot you down.’ Maybe I’ve seen too many westerns. I thought H&H forums was a friendly place, not a troll-fest.

The truth is, the lady who runs Ribbleton heard about this thread and asked people to post some positive (truthful) reviews. Forgive her, she’s an Australian living in Australia, she doesn’t understand the Great British psyche.

But who am I? My profile says ‘new user’ too. I’ve been studying with Ribbleton for 2 years and I love it. I know the other posters from our forum and they are genuine users, not sales people. But I would say that, wouldn’t I? I’d post a positive review but sadly it seems H&H Forums is not the place. If the OP or anyone else would like to message me for my thoughts and feedback, feel free. For the rest, I’m wearing my riding hat and body protector (the closest thing I have to a stab vest) ready for the backlash. I doubt I’ll look back for replies though. Life under lockdown while also working in a supermarket is sh*t enough without this kind of meanness.

In the words of the wonderful Caroline Flack, my second favourite ever Strictly competitor after Mark Benton (who could forget his cha cha cha to ‘U can’t touch this’, available on YouTube), ‘In a world where you can be anything, be kind’.


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## DabDab (17 April 2020)

I think one person posting their personal view on a thread about a product is one thing, but when a bunch load of others then join the forum specifically to promote a very expensive product then it becomes a bit different. If you all personally chose to come on here purely to post your positive views on a product then that's fine, nobody is stopping you, but you can't expect regular users to think that it is a particularly great asset to the forum.

This forum is best when you get an organic range of opinions on a subject.


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## ester (17 April 2020)

we're using BBT to demonstrate points now?!


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## Gingerwitch (17 April 2020)

ester said:



			we're using BBT to demonstrate points now?!
		
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Whats BBT ?


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## ester (17 April 2020)

big bang theory


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## Gingerwitch (17 April 2020)

Gingerwitch said:



			Whats BBT ?
		
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Just realised its the Big Bang Theory - that has really made me laugh


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## Goldenstar (17 April 2020)

Advertising is not permitted on this site 
and this is in my view covert advertising 
We are not dim on here we can see when posters are seeking to manipulate us for commercial reasons .
buy advertising If you want to attract interest don’t treat us like fools .



Daisy H said:



			Wow! New users enter the saloon. The music stops. Well-known members turn from the bar and eye them suspiciously. ‘You’re not welcome here.’ ‘We don’t like you.’ ‘Coming here with your fancy foreign ideas.’ ‘We’re gonna shoot you down.’ Maybe I’ve seen too many westerns. I thought H&H forums was a friendly place, not a troll-fest.

The truth is, the lady who runs Ribbleton heard about this thread and asked people to post some positive (truthful) reviews. Forgive her, she’s an Australian living in Australia, she doesn’t understand the Great British psyche.

But who am I? My profile says ‘new user’ too. I’ve been studying with Ribbleton for 2 years and I love it. I know the other posters from our forum and they are genuine users, not sales people. But I would say that, wouldn’t I? I’d post a positive review but sadly it seems H&H Forums is not the place. If the OP or anyone else would like to message me for my thoughts and feedback, feel free. For the rest, I’m wearing my riding hat and body protector (the closest thing I have to a stab vest) ready for the backlash. I doubt I’ll look back for replies though. Life under lockdown while also working in a supermarket is sh*t enough without this kind of meanness.

In the words of the wonderful Caroline Flack, my second favourite ever Strictly competitor after Mark Benton (who could forget his cha cha cha to ‘U can’t touch this’, available on YouTube), ‘In a world where you can be anything, be kind’.
		
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## Gingerwitch (17 April 2020)

Daisy H said:



			Wow! New users enter the saloon. The music stops. Well-known members turn from the bar and eye them suspiciously. ‘You’re not welcome here.’ ‘We don’t like you.’ ‘Coming here with your fancy foreign ideas.’ ‘We’re gonna shoot you down.’ Maybe I’ve seen too many westerns. I thought H&H forums was a friendly place, not a troll-fest.

The truth is, the lady who runs Ribbleton heard about this thread and asked people to post some positive (truthful) reviews. Forgive her, she’s an Australian living in Australia, she doesn’t understand the Great British psyche.

But who am I? My profile says ‘new user’ too. I’ve been studying with Ribbleton for 2 years and I love it. I know the other posters from our forum and they are genuine users, not sales people. But I would say that, wouldn’t I? I’d post a positive review but sadly it seems H&H Forums is not the place. If the OP or anyone else would like to message me for my thoughts and feedback, feel free. For the rest, I’m wearing my riding hat and body protector (the closest thing I have to a stab vest) ready for the backlash. I doubt I’ll look back for replies though. Life under lockdown while also working in a supermarket is sh*t enough without this kind of meanness.

In the words of the wonderful Caroline Flack, my second favourite ever Strictly competitor after Mark Benton (who could forget his cha cha cha to ‘U can’t touch this’, available on YouTube), ‘In a world where you can be anything, be kind’.
		
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If you have been studying Ribbleton for 2 years, you must be minted, If a 10 week course is £4,000 its £400 a week, studying it for 2 years has cost you what £20,800 ? or do they give you the other 94 weeks for free ?

Could you also clarify if the system is so good and warrants a price of £4000 for a 10 week course, why are you still studying it 2 years later on ?

So it can't be worth 4k for the 10 weeks can it ?


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## Bonnie Allie (18 April 2020)

Daisy H said:



			Wow! New users enter the saloon. The music stops. Well-known members turn from the bar and eye them suspiciously. ‘You’re not welcome here.’ ‘We don’t like you.’ ‘Coming here with your fancy foreign ideas.’ ‘We’re gonna shoot you down.’ Maybe I’ve seen too many westerns. I thought H&H forums was a friendly place, not a troll-fest.

The truth is, the lady who runs Ribbleton heard about this thread and asked people to post some positive (truthful) reviews. Forgive her, she’s an Australian living in Australia, she doesn’t understand the Great British psyche.

But who am I? My profile says ‘new user’ too. I’ve been studying with Ribbleton for 2 years and I love it. I know the other posters from our forum and they are genuine users, not sales people. But I would say that, wouldn’t I? I’d post a positive review but sadly it seems H&H Forums is not the place. If the OP or anyone else would like to message me for my thoughts and feedback, feel free. For the rest, I’m wearing my riding hat and body protector (the closest thing I have to a stab vest) ready for the backlash. I doubt I’ll look back for replies though. Life under lockdown while also working in a supermarket is sh*t enough without this kind of meanness.

In the words of the wonderful Caroline Flack, my second favourite ever Strictly competitor after Mark Benton (who could forget his cha cha cha to ‘U can’t touch this’, available on YouTube), ‘In a world where you can be anything, be kind’.
		
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Daisy - the owner of Ribbleton training would have been better off if she was concerned about this thread to post herself about the methodology, why it works and educate folks.  Unfortunately by getting her disciples to do so it has come across as cult like, which I’m sure it is not.

im also in Sydney, incidentally living very close to Ribbleton.  We are not in lockdown in NSW.  We are in stage 3 restrictions which for most of us is very manageable.  

It’s much better than the rest of the world right now.   I’m sorry you hate your supermarket job, but you have a job.  I’m grateful you have it as it made my trip to Woolies this morning easy with the high volume of quality staff.  We do appreciate the crazy hours you are all working. NSW will be out of this sooner than most.   We are super lucky.  

You are fortunate to have found a training regime that gives you the results you want and the relationship with your horse that is unique.  Keep going. It will make your supermarket job and all the challenges you are facing seem worth it.


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## Gingerwitch (18 April 2020)

Bonnie Allie said:



			Daisy - the owner of Ribbleton training would have been better off if she was concerned about this thread to post herself about the methodology, why it works and educate folks.  Unfortunately by getting her disciples to do so it has come across as cult like, which I’m sure it is not.

im also in Sydney, incidentally living very close to Ribbleton.  We are not in lockdown in NSW.  We are in stage 3 restrictions which for most of us is very manageable. 

It’s much better than the rest of the world right now.   I’m sorry you hate your supermarket job, but you have a job.  I’m grateful you have it as it made my trip to Woolies this morning easy with the high volume of quality staff.  We do appreciate the crazy hours you are all working. NSW will be out of this sooner than most.   We are super lucky. 

You are fortunate to have found a training regime that gives you the results you want and the relationship with your horse that is unique.  Keep going. It will make your supermarket job and all the challenges you are facing seem worth it.
		
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Wow Woolies must pay top dollar over there.
It does sound like a cult so have popped some tin foil on my head and shut the curtains just in case they are watching


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## HashRouge (18 April 2020)

What I don't understand is how a 10 week course can, in any way, be worth £4000. Perhaps one of our new members could explain a little about what you get for the price?


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## CMcC (18 April 2020)

Out of interest I watched the introductory YouTube video.

I have absolutely no idea what the method involved. It was about 5 minutes of the founder talking about attunement with her horse, not using a whip any more. Several shots of her kissing her horse and then she seemed to be just free schooling - horse frequently reared at her turned round and double barrelled in her direction and generally bogged off in the opposite direction. I don‘t want to spend £4000 to teach my ponies to do that.


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## soloequestrian (18 April 2020)

OP here.  I note that no-one has yet actually answered my question about how you can 'disagree with' behavioural reinforcement.  I use the BBT clip regularly to illustrate the concept (although there is a mistake in it - 'punishment' is called 'negative reinforcement' which should horrify Sheldon with its inaccuracy).


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## ShoutyWoman (20 April 2020)

Ribbleton is about communicating with your horse in a way it understands - more like a horse, less like a human (which it doesn’t understand). training focused on stuff horse enjoys doing in small chunks so horse doesn’t get really bored. Horse develops intrinsic motivation - understands what its being asked to do, doing things it enjoys. No reinforcement needed. Sorry don’t know much about + or - reinforcement in training so can’t really compare. Hope that helps


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## Gingerwitch (20 April 2020)

ShoutyWoman said:



			Ribbleton is about communicating with your horse in a way it understands - more like a horse, less like a human (which it doesn’t understand). training focused on stuff horse enjoys doing in small chunks so horse doesn’t get really bored. Horse develops intrinsic motivation - understands what its being asked to do, doing things it enjoys. No reinforcement needed. Sorry don’t know much about + or - reinforcement in training so can’t really compare. Hope that helps
		
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Well horses and humans have had a pretty okay working relationship for a coupe of thousand years, according to google between 4 to 6,000 years.  I mean seriously I do not think i know a horse that would pick being ridden if they can pick eating grass.


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## ShoutyWoman (20 April 2020)

Don’t know what the 4K course is. I did a short course a while ago which cost a few £100, can’t remember exact amount. There were a few. Courses at the time from short courses to 2 years, nothing cost anywhere near 4K. Ive tried a few trainers over the years, some I’ve liked some I haven’t. This one does offer something different: other trainers are all about getting the horse to do what you want, this is more collaborative. I got a lot out of it and I understand my horses a lot better. I suppose it boils down to - if you’re happpy with traditional command and control this probably isn’t for you. If you’re looking for something more progressive and less humans rule the world it may be for you


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## ShoutyWoman (20 April 2020)

Gingerwitch, yes the relationship has been excellent for humans, less so for horses which never get asked their opinion. Your 2nd sentence kinda proves that. Simple fact is the horse isnt designed to be ridden, there’s research that states the horse’s back isn’t designed to carry weight. No reflection on people who ride, I rode a lot til recently (bit old and decrepit now) but thems the facts


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## soloequestrian (21 April 2020)

ShoutyWoman said:



			Ribbleton is about communicating with your horse in a way it understands - more like a horse, less like a human (which it doesn’t understand). training focused on stuff horse enjoys doing in small chunks so horse doesn’t get really bored. Horse develops intrinsic motivation - understands what its being asked to do, doing things it enjoys. No reinforcement needed. Sorry don’t know much about + or - reinforcement in training so can’t really compare. Hope that helps
		
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But 'enjoyment' - i.e. the physiological reponse that the horse feels - is a form of reinforcement.  So what sorts of thing do you do to make sure the horse enjoys itself and also (presumably) does things that you would like it to and doesn't hurt you?  And how can a training system disagree with a concept that it doesn't seem to understand?  You can disagree with the application of types of reinforcement but I'm still sure that you can't disagree that reinforcement exists and is the basis of all training.


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## Mule (21 April 2020)

soloequestrian said:



			But 'enjoyment' - i.e. the physiological reponse that the horse feels - is a form of reinforcement.  So what sorts of thing do you do to make sure the horse enjoys itself and also (presumably) does things that you would like it to and doesn't hurt you?  And how can a training system disagree with a concept that it doesn't seem to understand?  You can disagree with the application of types of reinforcement but I'm still sure that you can't disagree that reinforcement exists and is the basis of all training.
		
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It sounds like the designer of the programme isn't aware of the correct meaning of reinforcement. I've noticed people often get behaviourism mixed up. Positive punishment and negative reinforcement seem to be commonly confused.


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## Gingerwitch (21 April 2020)

ShoutyWoman said:



			Gingerwitch, yes the relationship has been excellent for humans, less so for horses which never get asked their opinion. Your 2nd sentence kinda proves that. Simple fact is the horse isnt designed to be ridden, there’s research that states the horse’s back isn’t designed to carry weight. No reflection on people who ride, I rode a lot til recently (bit old and decrepit now) but thems the facts
		
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So basically Ribbleton wants horses to be come the new cows ie. a way of turning grass into meat ? 
May make a change, I do not think cows suffer with laminitis but will stand to be corrected, and i can just picture daisy with a nice pony rug on.


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## soloequestrian (21 April 2020)

So, in the hope that someone who has used the system comes back to this post, here is an example of how I have trained a response in one of my horses using various reinforcers:
I trained my young horse to pick her feet up so I can check them.  I had previously clicker trained her, which is a very clear form of positive reinforcement with a bridging signal (the carrot she gets is the positive reinforcer - it stimulates a physiological response that she finds pleasant, the click is the bridge that gives her a feeling of looking forward to a reward appearing, which is also pleasant, so to some extent the click is also a reinforcer).
I tapped her leg with my finger which acted as negative reinforcement - she found it a bit irritating and the way to get rid of the irritation was to lift her leg out of the way.  This was what I wanted so stopped tapping and immediately clicked and rewarded (positive reinforcement).  Once she knew that lifting her leg obtained a reward, she was happy to do it and so the negative reinforcer of the slightly tickly tap became just a pointed finger cue.
I'd be interested to know what the differences are in the Ribbleton system, including whether you would train this, and if so how you would do it.


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## ShoutyWoman (21 April 2020)

soloequestrian said:



			But 'enjoyment' - i.e. the physiological reponse that the horse feels - is a form of reinforcement.  So what sorts of thing do you do to make sure the horse enjoys itself and also (presumably) does things that you would like it to and doesn't hurt you?  And how can a training system disagree with a concept that it doesn't seem to understand?  You can disagree with the application of types of reinforcement but I'm still sure that you can't disagree that reinforcement exists and is the basis of all training.
		
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Sorry, I see I’ve misunderstood the complexity of ‘reinforcement’. I did say it’s not something I’ve looked into particularly. I was trying to help but clearly failed. I don’t speak for the person who made the comment you’re questioning. I don’t think you’re going to get an answer to your question on here so can only suggest you contact her direct


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## ShoutyWoman (21 April 2020)

Gingerwitch said:



			So basically Ribbleton wants horses to be come the new cows ie. a way of turning grass into meat ?
May make a change, I do not think cows suffer with laminitis but will stand to be corrected, and i can just picture daisy with a nice pony rug on.
		
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Not at all. That was me not Ribbleton and more of a philosophical point about the human race’s use of animals for its own ends. You said (paraphrasing slightly): horses and humans have had a pretty ok working relationship for thousands of years. Horses would rather eat grass than be ridden. How is that an ok working relationship from the horse‘s perspective? Asking for myself not Ribbleton


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## Roxylola (21 April 2020)

Daisy H good for you for being honest and open about why you are here. Previous posters were not. It absolutely is good to have view on things and nothing wrong with being positive about something you feel has helped you, but be honest about what brings you here before calling people bullies.


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## soloequestrian (21 April 2020)

ShoutyWoman said:



			Sorry, I see I’ve misunderstood the complexity of ‘reinforcement’. I did say it’s not something I’ve looked into particularly. I was trying to help but clearly failed. I don’t speak for the person who made the comment you’re questioning. I don’t think you’re going to get an answer to your question on here so can only suggest you contact her direct 

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I tried that, I just got the corporate response, nothing helpful.  I'd be interested in your response to my other post, just above, which is much more specific.


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## ShoutyWoman (21 April 2020)

soloequestrian said:



			I tried that, I just got the corporate response, nothing helpful.  I'd be interested in your response to my other post, just above, which is much more specific.
		
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That’s a shame, I see your frustration. I dont feel at all confident about working through an example not knowing the terminology. I am bamboozled by the appetitive and aversive reinforcers and the positive punishment and negative reinforcement etc. This has been a very unfriendly thread (not your fault) and I don’t want to lay myself open to abuse from others when I inevitably get it wrong. I will politely decline. Sorry I can’t help.


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## Ruby Orion (5 September 2020)

Toodledo said:



			[Content removed following complaint from Ribbleton]
		
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I thought how cool I can talk about my issues and get some advice. I should have known nothing is free!


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## ester (5 September 2020)

It sounds a bit like double glazing sales.


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## Gloi (5 September 2020)

Looks like you had a lucky or rather a wise escape there RubyOrion


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## Gloi (5 September 2020)

Gingerwitch said:



			May make a change, I do not think cows suffer with laminitis but will stand to be corrected.
		
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Sadly they do


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## Wishfilly (5 September 2020)

ShoutyWoman said:



			Ribbleton is about communicating with your horse in a way it understands - more like a horse, less like a human (which it doesn’t understand). training focused on stuff horse enjoys doing in small chunks so horse doesn’t get really bored. Horse develops intrinsic motivation - understands what its being asked to do, doing things it enjoys. No reinforcement needed. Sorry don’t know much about + or - reinforcement in training so can’t really compare. Hope that helps
		
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As has been said, pretty much all communication is reinforcement. Allowing a horse to do something it enjoys is positive reinforcement, or a reward, if you'd rather. Positive reinforcement doesn't have to mean a food reward. If you use pressure/release, you're using negative reinforcement. Things like sending a horse away with body language if they do undesirable behaviour count as punishment. If you're using stimuli (including your voice and body language) to train a horse, that's reinforcement- and if you're interacting with a horse at all, you must be doing this, even inadvertently.

It's fair enough to not know what reinforcement is, but you shouldn't say "it's not needed" if you don't understand it!


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## SBJT (15 September 2020)

Now I’m just generally curious about this. I don’t think they’d want to get on a call with me though as someone being pushy and coercing just makes me want to wind them up...


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## Sossigpoker (15 September 2020)

I'm also curious now.
Can any of the students who have commented here provide an example of training a horse to do something? Anything at all?
What are the basics of this method of communication they advocate?


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## SEL (16 September 2020)

I've just wasted 20 mins having an interesting read through this thread 

I'm forever being bombarded by companies wanting me to spend money signing up to a course but those who are genuine (Straightness training, Ritter amongst others) tend to share enough freebies on line that you know broadly what you are signing up for. Anything this opaque really does send out warning signals.


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## TPO (4 October 2020)

Its not fraud as poster paid the money knowing that it was a deposit and there would be a follow up call etc. 

This Ribbleton person is obviously a patter merchant and knows how to get to people feeling vunerable but that's not the same as fraud.

Lesson to everyone else...when she asks for money that you don't want to give hang up.

Just as a matter of interest how did you find out about ribbleton? Admittedly I havent looked for it but I've never heard about it beyond this thread. I read a lot and have horsey friends in australia (where this seems to be?) but never heard of this at all. Normally before things hit the UK theyve been in american and australian horse magazine first (e.g. Masterson) but not seen a thing about this supposed programme.


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## FinnishLapphund (4 October 2020)

Sassenach78 said:



			I will try. But I live in Sweden and she is in Australia. I doubt that my bank can do anything. This was my mistake and I will learn from it 🙂
		
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Sadly from what I've heard, Swedish banks are much for putting the ball in your corner, when it comes to what I presume can be classed as fraudulent callers, and regretting payments you've agreed on.

For the last few years there's now a Swedish Law which says that you have 14 days right to withdrawal also when it comes to buys you've agreed on over the telephone. However, as I recall it, that only applies when the caller calls from somewhere in Sweden on behalf of so and so company (possibly also from within EU, but I'm not sure about that). In a case like this, I sadly think the bank will probably say that since the caller is in Australia, it goes under Australian Laws, and basically tells you that you have to contact the police in the caller's country. And then the case disappears into the depths of international laws back and forth, at least that is how it's been in similar cases that I've heard about.

I hope I'm wrong, and you have a different outcome. Sorry if it ends up as a costly mistake you can't do anything about.

By the way, I presume that at least some of the people involved in calls like this, the same as some of those involved in online love frauds etc, have systems for both how to find clients likely to fall for their tricks, and how to suck clients into getting stuck in their spider web.

P.s. Hello, I'm in Gothenburg!


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## Bonnie Allie (4 October 2020)

Sassenach78 said:



			I will try. But I live in Sweden and she is in Australia. I doubt that my bank can do anything. This was my mistake and I will learn from it 🙂
		
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Ribbleton is in Dural, NSW in Australia.  You can make a complaint via the below website.   Please do report them, get your money back.

https://www.fairtrading.nsw.gov.au/


Our consumer laws are state based in Australia, so you need to go through this dept rather than rely on the Federal laws.

please keep us updated on your progress in getting your money back.


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## skint1 (4 October 2020)

I suspected they were terrible people, I am sorry to see it confirmed, hope you get your money back


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## cali (3 November 2020)

I am in the middle of the call and the decision, they kept coming up on my facebook, and after a particularly upsetting session with my horse I had a look, watched the webinar with interest and took the call, which like others have said was very emotional.  I nearly had a heart attack when told the price, I didn't commit to paying there and then, but paid the non refundable deposit, they were to call me in a few days.  This gave me time to think more clearly and when she phoned last night, I told her that I was in a particularly vunerable place during the call, and wasn't thinking clearly, I wasn't prepared to pay the money until I had done more research into what else might be available, I also asked her if there were any more videos I could watch that would actually show what she does and what her horses can do other than coming when she calls them.  I realise I will lose the NZ$750 deposit, but I am much happier with that than paying another NZ$7000 until I am convinced it's right for me and my horse.  I am not saying they are fraudulent or anything, I paid the deposit knowing it was non refundable, but my frustration is in not being able to actually see her method and what it achieves without paying the big money.  So they are calling me back on Friday.  In the meantime I will do as much research as I can, but I doubt I will to through with it, and will just resign myself to losing the deposit.


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## TPO (3 November 2020)

I'm really struggling to understand this at all.

What is this person saying over the phone to have people handing over that kind of money as a non refundable deposit??

How can an online training course possibly need a deposit? It's not a finite resource.

I appreciate that people are responding because they are upset and vunerable making themselves open to tactics that might not work under normal circumstances. However this seems absolutely crazy and it's not like its fifty quid, still a lot to lose for nothing, but its hundreds of pounds (dollars).

Cannot wrap my head around this at all. My very horsey friend in NSW has never heard of this group at all, where are people finding them?? 

Sorry to everyone that's lost their money. I truly hope you are the last and people stop handing over money for nothing to this shower


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## cali (3 November 2020)

The worst thing about it is that I knew the call was going to be a selling tactic, and I actually made a sarcastic comment about it to the person re I'm sure you're going to get around to telling me how much this will cost, and ask me to mortgage the house etc - I'm usually a very sensible person.  And to be fair, when I paid the deposit, I did so fully intending to sign up, this was the answer to all my problems etc I was even excited (the person I spoke to was very good!) I just wanted more time to think about where I could get the money etc.  then over the course of the evening when my brain starting kicking in again, I started feeling quite sick about what I had done etc. 
I've always wondered how people let themselves get scammed etc  However, I don't feel I was scammed, I was very aware this was non refundable etc.  I think the problem lies in the moralistic side of them asking you to pay immediately knowing you are in a high emotional place, with no cooling off period.


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## canteron (4 November 2020)

I have a neighbour who I see (from a rare fb post) has just signed up - she has just had a horrible fall where she broke her pelvis so I guess would be the type they like.
I won’t see her until after lockdown - but look forward to finding out if it had anything to offer.


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## ester (4 November 2020)

Do you not legally have a distance selling cooling off period over there?


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## ViolettaScarlett (7 December 2020)

I went through the webinar and had my 45 minute assessment.  It was horrible. I could tell she was trying to psychologically break me down to need this program. I’m a very confident rider and figured what have I got to lose for a 45 minute free assessment? I felt terrible at the end of the “session”. She said aren’t you afraid of falling and getting hurt? No I’m not. Aren’t you afraid of having to sell your horse? For spooking in one area? Give me a break! I think she was annoyed that I wasn’t breaking down and agreeing with her. 
I finally told her what I thought. No cookies. Give me a break. There is nothing wrong with positive reinforcement.


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## Ruby Orion (7 December 2020)

I had a similar situation. My post and others who say negative things about this company have posts taken down. When I have a moment this week I’m reporting her to the Australian authorities. I would do the same if I were you. This woman is relentless and prays on women and I believe more mature women who tick all her vulnerable boxes when it comes to their horses and maybe lack of confidence. I was banned from this site for reporting the truth to help others who have encountered Ribbleton.


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## ViolettaScarlett (7 December 2020)

Ruby Orion said:



			I had a similar situation. My post and others who say negative things about this company have posts taken down. When I have a moment this week I’m reporting her to the Australian authorities. I would do the same if I were you. This woman is relentless and prays on women and I believe more mature women who tick all her vulnerable boxes when it comes to their horses and maybe lack of confidence. I was banned from this site for reporting the truth to help others who have encountered Ribbleton.
		
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Total sales pitch. You are right though. I feel bad for people that fall for it. I never got my one question answered. I figured they could answer one question. I even said in the information email that I probably don’t fit the typical mold of people. I recognized that. She said no there are many like me. I doubt it. I almost didn’t do the call, but figured what have I got to lose? An hour of my life! Glad to see I’m not the only one feeling this way.


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## soloequestrian (9 December 2020)

I watched another one of these kinds of thing (I think) recently - can't remember what it was called, but an Australian lady with dark hair who had had a bad fall from a Fresian stallion although he (allegedly) was a top level dressage horse.  She had this weird thing that it was fear of fear itself that is everyone's problem and that she could cure that.  I wonder if she is related to Ribbleton?  The online seminar appeared to be live but I'm pretty sure it wasn't because it was repeated so often - I couldn't be bothered to attend a second one to see if the comments coming through were the same!  It was free though and no personal hard sell.


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## Dave's Mam (9 December 2020)

soloequestrian said:



			I watched another one of these kinds of thing (I think) recently - can't remember what it was called, but an Australian lady with dark hair who had had a bad fall from a Fresian stallion although he (allegedly) was a top level dressage horse.  She had this weird thing that it was fear of fear itself that is everyone's problem and that she could cure that.  I wonder if she is related to Ribbleton?  The online seminar appeared to be live but I'm pretty sure it wasn't because it was repeated so often - I couldn't be bothered to attend a second one to see if the comments coming through were the same!  It was free though and no personal hard sell.
		
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Natasha Altoff or something like that?


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## soloequestrian (9 December 2020)

Yes, 'Natasha' rings a bell....


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## DabDab (9 December 2020)

I've watched a bit of stuff from natasha (if it's the one I'm thinking of), and she isn't at all similar to how Ribbleton sounds. She's fairly conventional dressage, german scales of training type stuff, but I think she has a degree in sports psychology or something along those lines so throws a bit of that sort of stuff into the mix


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## Dave's Mam (9 December 2020)

DabDab said:



			I've watched a bit of stuff from natasha (if it's the one I'm thinking of), and she isn't at all similar to how Ribbleton sounds. She's fairly conventional dressage, german scales of training type stuff, but I think she has a degree in sports psychology or something along those lines so throws a bit of that sort of stuff into the mix
		
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That sounds like who I am thinking of.


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## Juby (4 January 2021)

TPO said:



			Its not fraud as poster paid the money knowing that it was a deposit and there would be a follow up call etc.

This Ribbleton person is obviously a patter merchant and knows how to get to people feeling vunerable but that's not the same as fraud.

Lesson to everyone else...when she asks for money that you don't want to give hang up.

Just as a matter of interest how did you find out about ribbleton? Admittedly I havent looked for it but I've never heard about it beyond this thread. I read a lot and have horsey friends in australia (where this seems to be?) but never heard of this at all. Normally before things hit the UK theyve been in american and australian horse magazine first (e.g. Masterson) but not seen a thing about this supposed programme.
		
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I can’t believe 


Bonnie Allie said:



			Ribbleton is in Dural, NSW in Australia.  You can make a complaint via the below website.   Please do report them, get your money back.

https://www.fairtrading.nsw.gov.au/


Our consumer laws are state based in Australia, so you need to go through this dept rather than rely on the Federal laws.

please keep us updated on your progress in getting your money back.
		
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I can’t believe that I nearly got sucked into this today.  This lovely caring lady had me in tears and found all the right triggers to make me wanna sign my life away. I was able to stop short of signing up as I simply didn’t even have the deposit requested then and there and expressed I needed to discuss this with my Husband.  They are calling tomorrow.  Yup young green horse - bucked off - broken ribs and have lost confidence for 3+Yrs to move forward with him.  I had desperate written allllll over me  Feeling so disappointed in myself right now.  Hubby nearly fainted at the total price (nearly 7K Australian for 10modules over 10wks).


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## TPO (4 January 2021)

Juby said:



			I can’t believe

I can’t believe that I nearly got sucked into this today.  This lovely caring lady had me in tears and found all the right triggers to make me wanna sign my life away. I was able to stop short of signing up as I simply didn’t even have the deposit requested then and there and expressed I needed to discuss this with my Husband.  They are calling tomorrow.  Yup young green horse - bucked off - broken ribs and have lost confidence for 3+Yrs to move forward with him.  I had desperate written allllll over me  Feeling so disappointed in myself right now.  Hubby nearly fainted at the total price (nearly 7K Australian for 10modules over 10wks).
		
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Glad you stopped short and found this thread.

Where about in Aus are you? There are a few aussies on here that might be able to point you towards a trainer.

Theres Double Dan Horsemanship, Warwick Schiller and Guy McLean for big name australian trainers with online/dvd resources too if that helps


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## Sassenach78 (6 January 2021)

Juby said:



			I can’t believe

I can’t believe that I nearly got sucked into this today.  This lovely caring lady had me in tears and found all the right triggers to make me wanna sign my life away. I was able to stop short of signing up as I simply didn’t even have the deposit requested then and there and expressed I needed to discuss this with my Husband.  They are calling tomorrow.  Yup young green horse - bucked off - broken ribs and have lost confidence for 3+Yrs to move forward with him.  I had desperate written allllll over me  Feeling so disappointed in myself right now.  Hubby nearly fainted at the total price (nearly 7K Australian for 10modules over 10wks).
		
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You are not alone ❤


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## pansymouse (6 January 2021)

There's an Australian chap called Neil Davis whose posts I see on Facebook fairly regularly and find myself agreeing with almost always.  I know he has a book out but I don't know if the does anything else.  He seems gentle, sensible and intuitive around horses.


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## southerncomfort (6 January 2021)

And Steve Halfpenny!


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## MiJodsR2BlinkinTite (6 January 2021)

TPO said:



			In the space of four hours there are four brand new posters who's only posts are to say how life transforming paying 4k for an online training course is 🤔 <slow hand clap>
		
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^^^ This!

Seems like this is the "new Parelli"??? Gawd help us.......

Think I need to develop a wonderful sexed-up horse training method and ask stoopid money for it! Think I'm missing out somehow.

IMO there is no substitute for groundwork, groundwork & more groundwork, where the horse and rider are thus building up rapport and teamwork together, which can then be taken into ridden work. If the basics are right on the ground, the rest of it in the saddle will be easy. The horse needs to be treated like a horse (and not a pet poodle)i.e. with boundaries firmly set, and given fair, respectful, and consistent training throughout.


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## Nana828 (4 June 2021)

Bangagin said:



			I registered my email address and watched the webinar (which was free) and was then offered a follow up call, but haven't taken up that offer. I imagine you are then given all the information about what they can offer and the cost of mentoring during that phone call.
		
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I did this


SEL said:



			I've just wasted 20 mins having an interesting read through this thread 

I'm forever being bombarded by companies wanting me to spend money signing up to a course but those who are genuine (Straightness training, Ritter amongst others) tend to share enough freebies on line that you know broadly what you are signing up for. Anything this opaque really does send out warning signals.
		
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This is my feelings exactly.  It has been very difficult for me (even after taking the call with them) to get any real understanding of the "methods" or "techniques" used which I would NEED to know and understand a little about before forking out $5000 (US) (and $6000 if you make payments over 60 days. $2000 upfront, $2000 in 30 days and the last $2000 in 30 days).  I think it is asking a lot of someone to expect them to do that.  After doing the call with them and answering all of their questions over and over and them making me feel that they are the only ones that know how to help me and my horse in this way, and making me feel bad because I'm not committed to helping my horse and myself if I don't do this program, it is my opinion that there is something funny going on and they are only concerned about the money.


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## Nana828 (4 June 2021)

cali said:



			The worst thing about it is that I knew the call was going to be a selling tactic, and I actually made a sarcastic comment about it to the person re I'm sure you're going to get around to telling me how much this will cost, and ask me to mortgage the house etc - I'm usually a very sensible person.  And to be fair, when I paid the deposit, I did so fully intending to sign up, this was the answer to all my problems etc I was even excited (the person I spoke to was very good!) I just wanted more time to think about where I could get the money etc.  then over the course of the evening when my brain starting kicking in again, I started feeling quite sick about what I had done etc.
I've always wondered how people let themselves get scammed etc  However, I don't feel I was scammed, I was very aware this was non refundable etc.  I think the problem lies in the moralistic side of them asking you to pay immediately knowing you are in a high emotional place, with no cooling off period.
		
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Exactly, and in my opinion, they are the ones that get you in "a high emotional place, with no cooling off period" because again, in my opinion, they want you to be in a vulnerable place where you will feel that you are the only one that can help your horse, but only with their help.  At least this is how I feel based on my experience.

In my case, I didn't get the program or do a trial, as it was just way too much to pay for something where I understand so little about the methods or their techniques (which is how I ended up on here trying to do more research about their methods and techniques). But I sure felt bad all day after that call because I felt that somehow I was failing myself and my horse...which I realized later is NOT true.  I will continue to keep loving my horses and working with them the best way I know how.


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## Casey76 (4 June 2021)

Ha!  I watched the webinar (simply because it was being so heavily advertised on FB at the time, and I was curious), and then I got myself blocked from the page because I asked all kind of uncomfortable questions about her knowledge of the 4 quadrants of operant conditioning and how what she was proposing just wouldn’t benefit any equine. 🤣🤣🤣


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## ycbm (4 June 2021)

Casey76 said:



			Ha!  I watched the webinar (simply because it was being so heavily advertised on FB at the time, and I was curious), and then I got myself blocked from the page because I asked all kind of uncomfortable questions about her knowledge of the 4 quadrants of operant conditioning and how what she was proposing just wouldn’t benefit any equine. 🤣🤣🤣
		
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Reading this thread since it started I have been sooooo tempted to let them waste as long as I can string them along for and then finish the call by asking how they can sleep at night when they make their living by preying on people's fears and weaknesses.
.


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## AngelHerd (18 June 2021)

I had a call with them recently.  It was painful.  I was told I'm scared of my horses because I wouldn't take them for a walk when it was windy.  I just think that's common sense. I was also pressured to 'go grab my card' and put down the £1.5k deposit, when I had told her if I was going to do a course of that expense I would want to make sure I'm setting aside 10 weeks of dedicated time, which right now I don't have, along with telling her I don't have that sort of money available.  There was also a "Decisive Discount" so the course is $10,000, and they would charge me $5,000 if I signed up there and then.

What confuses me is that they are teaching people to listen and *not manipulate* horses - BUT they are OK with manipulating people and *not listen *to them.

I very much enjoy listening to Paulette's lives and resonate a lot with what she says, however employing such an archaic, aggressive sales technique has put me totally off.


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## littleshetland (18 June 2021)

It makes me so angry and sad that these people prey on other peoples fears and insecurities.  They are no better than dangerous cult leaders, quacks and snake oil salesmen.  I wish Joe Lycett was 'horsey'....I'm sure he could  do an excellent job in stringing them along for our entertainment!


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## TPO (18 June 2021)

I'm still non the wiser what this ribbledribble is 🤷🏼‍♀️

This thread is the only place I've seen it and heard no mention of it outside of here.

I'm guessing its Australian? Admittedly my last aussie horse magazine purchase was January 2020 but it flicked back through them and no mention of them in the adverts unlike other horsemanship programmes. 

Its still blowing my mind that people can be talking into parting with 10k over the phone to a stranger. A tenth of that would see them right with a good trainer in person or a good online source (double dan/Guy McLean/Warwick Schiller are all australians).


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## milliepops (18 June 2021)

Not something I've come across other than here either.
It's a glossy convincing sell though.
Looking at the website Jobs Available page. the people who call punters to sell this stuff are on commission. it says earnings up to $100k. I'd guess they get nowhere near there and are told they aren't being girl-bosses enough if they aren't getting that... target very much UK/US/Europe, perhaps because of the difficulties people have with getting their ££ back across borders


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## Casey76 (18 June 2021)

TPO said:



			I'm still non the wiser what this ribbledribble is 🤷🏼‍♀️

This thread is the only place I've seen it and heard no mention of it outside of here.

I'm guessing its Australian? Admittedly my last aussie horse magazine purchase was January 2020 but it flicked back through them and no mention of them in the adverts unlike other horsemanship programmes.

Its still blowing my mind that people can be talking into parting with 10k over the phone to a stranger. A tenth of that would see them right with a good trainer in person or a good online source (double dan/Guy McLean/Warwick Schiller are all australians).
		
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The woman is crackers.

You can’t use aversives and you can’t use clicker/treats/ or other positive reinforcement (she called it bribery), you can’t correct your horse for anything.  Apparently if they love you they will do what you want without any apparent instruction from you.


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## littleshetland (18 June 2021)

TPO said:



			I'm still non the wiser what this ribbledribble is 🤷🏼‍♀️

This thread is the only place I've seen it and heard no mention of it outside of here.

I'm guessing its Australian? Admittedly my last aussie horse magazine purchase was January 2020 but it flicked back through them and no mention of them in the adverts unlike other horsemanship programmes.

Its still blowing my mind that people can be talking into parting with 10k over the phone to a stranger. A tenth of that would see them right with a good trainer in person or a good online source (double dan/Guy McLean/Warwick Schiller are all australians).
		
Click to expand...


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## littleshetland (18 June 2021)

....ribbledribble...LOL!


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## splashgirl45 (18 June 2021)

well i saw this thread and am always open to different methods that are kind as although i have been around horses for almost 60 years, i feel i dont know enough.  however, i still have no idea what this is all about and have wasted my time....i will go back to watching the dressage at luhmuhlen


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## Dave's Mam (18 June 2021)

It's about finding people who are stuck, feeling down & lost & struggling & then dangling a carrot.  So you go investigate the carrot.  It looks good. Then the carrot asks you for a 4 figure sum of money once they have your commitment.


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## Pyroteknik (23 August 2021)

Yes I am a new poster as of two minutes ago.   THANK YOU ALL!  
I had watched the presentation about an hour ago.  Here in Western Canada.  Had signed up for the phone call discussion for a couple of days ahead.  
Typical mark - it would seem I am.  Ridden all my life including taking my BHS Assistant Instructor many years ago.  Backed and ridden many horses, trained horses to drive, yadda yadda.  Now at 68 and trying to enjoy a wonderful mature Arab who is so freaked out by living in the trees of the west coast terrain rather than the prairies of most of his life.  His constant tension and spooking is exhausting and has drained all my confidence and become a burden.  I have been considering sending him back to my friend where we started, for both of our mental health.  I have spent 3 and half years trying to settle him down, with little success.  Even around the barn yard or being groomed spooks and tension seem to be with us.
Now I can cancel that phone arrangement - I have no doubt the thing is a fake.  My wonderful friend and trainer here (Equitation Science) costs me $40 for a session.  THANK YOU GUYS....  !!!!


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## Ambers Echo (23 August 2021)

Simple rules of thumb:

* If there something only 1 person is teaching/doing then it’s no good! Real knowledge and wisdom spreads rapidly, is taken up by others and is widely shared. 

* if there is secrecy about methods then it’s no good. The skill in all forms of training is the hours and years and decades needed to improve timing and feel, not the principles of the approaches themselves  which are usually quite simple 

* If costs are mega high up front with aggressive marketing, it’s no good! Trainees who get great results have people returning again and again so don’t need to secure all the fees before they give you anything. It’s a business structure that screams ‘you won’t leave happy’!

* If you’re generally a crappy human being, I have no interest in how you train horses.

Preying on vulnerable people and guilt tripping them using their fear,  love of their horse and their own feelings of inadequacy to emotionally blackmail them into forking out huge sums of non refundable cash is simply despicable. And they claim to be doing things the non coercive, non exploitive, kinder way? No I don’t think so.


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## rabatsa (23 August 2021)

Welcome to the forum Pyrotecknic.


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## Pyroteknik (23 August 2021)

Thank you.  I feel like I am among normal commonsense friends.  Gone midnight now, will have to go and see my little man tomorrow morning and give him a loving hug and scratch. As usual, things are so often the human problem first.
Cheers from Vancouver Island.


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