# Arean Uk BD-frustrating day:



## Prince33Sp4rkle (23 April 2012)

we started off like this:














and managed some of this:


























but spoilt it rather with some of this:






and this for good measure:






warmed up like a lamb and managed 99% of AM85 really sweetly,on song for about 63/64% and then completely out the blue gave me a bolt upright rear instead of the second change, getting himself a 1 and absolutely hammering the submission score and final centre line for an eventual 60.8%.

AM92 he seemed to be a reformed character until he got his tongue over the bit (which i think was a genuine mistake as he's never done it before), so i had to stop and retire to sort that out, judge kindly let me finish and even kinder carried on scoring, but having halted he then downed tools and crawled through the remaining walk, stuck, shuffled and tried to stop in both piri's and did a very idle transition to trot, before having to be pony club whalloped in to canter to avoid another rear.

he's going on a month of omeprazole (active ingredient of gastroguard) as its same cost as a scope, and if its definately not ulcer related then im at a loss and an going to BBQ the little turd........................................he's been super at home and improving steadily in terms of WAY less explosions, sometimes grumpy yes but goes when asked with minimal grumping and after 5/10mins is off and motoring, whether shows make him tenser than i realise and DO affect his tummy?????????????

warm up was foot perfect and judge said she couldnt see a thing either in my riding or externally, that should have set him off. she was at a loss too.

was really quite down and disappointed yesterday but today am a bit brighter, onwards and upwards, i know he CAN do it, its just a case of working out whats going on in his head, as if he's getting better and better and easier and easier at home, what am i doing/whats happening, different, at a show, need to get thinking cap on.

he had 1/4 dose of calmer, and was really completely un explosive and dobbin calm in the warm up.

:bah:


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## ihatework (23 April 2012)

I think the gastroguard is obviously a very good next step.

He is an amazing horse that has progressed very fast. Is it just possible that this is his way of telling you he is feeling the pressure?

Why not drop him back a level or two and just get his confidence back in the ring?


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## Tr0uble (23 April 2012)

I think it's def worth going down the omeprazole route. It MUST be something that is underlying and just nags him now and then when he's stressed...I know you'll ne on top of saddle fit amd back checks etc, but even so I'd expect that sort of issue to be less stress relayed, and happen across the board.

Have you thought about looking into things like EPSM? Could be SO low level...and you keeping him nice and toasty warm all the time could hide it...but then he's exposed at a show more than other times?  Have you tried giving him a bitt load of oil? Helps with stomach issues as well (I I've seen that you feed micronised linseed? But liquid oil does the job better for bo EPSM type issues and stomach issues)

I dunno....just trying to think of some possibilities...when he goes, he goes like stink! Must be SO annoying to have that Possibility of him just chucking a wobbly at you :-(

That first pic...wow! That NECK! Are you sure sure SURE he's TB?!


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## dafthoss (23 April 2012)

Seems like the week for ponies downing tools at parties  mines on the bbq now so cs can go on when he is finished if you like . 

Fingers crossed you get to the bottom of his behaviour but I'm impressed that you still managed 60% with a tantrum like that in the middle


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## little_flea (23 April 2012)

You know he can do it all so obviously just need to find a way of translating it in competition, be it a physical or a mental issue. He does look gorgeous when he is good (and you made me LOL with the "little turd" comment... we've all been there...) Good idea about the gastroguard - you just never know. We did the same trial with Maggie as she always snapped when doing the girth up (treat rather than scope.) Turns out the big Moo is simply just a snappy mare as no difference. The results should be quick though so at least you'll know soon.


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## caterpillar (23 April 2012)

Be interesting to see how the ulcer treatment goes.

Why not drop down a few levels and channel all your hard work and determination into qualifying for areas/regionals rather than progressing up the levels really quickly?

Tbs are very obliging but if pushed too far too quickly are likely to have mini meltdowns like your lovely chaps is.


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## Foxford (23 April 2012)

Looks like some lovely work there, so frustrating. That half-pass looks as straight as I've ever seen!

I bought some omeprazole for a friend on the same principle that it was the roughly the cost of a scope and under the cost of the insurance excess. Unfortunatley there was another issue causing the behaviour. Just out of curiousity, does anyone know where we could sell the unused supply (legally!) as I'm unsure how to do it and it seems crazy having it sat around?


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## black_horse (23 April 2012)

Just be aware that omeprazole is a drug so might want to check with BD first.

We do omeprazole at work (10mg and 20mg).


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## superpony (23 April 2012)

Aww thats a shame but he looks super! Hope you get to the bottom of it.


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## Jackson (23 April 2012)

Ah, he even looks beautiful when he is being stupid  
How long has it been since he had time off? I'm liking the lack of shoes!


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## SusieT (23 April 2012)

omeprazole has only 16% bioavailability compred to gastroguard which is very high so a lot of people think they are getting away with using omeprazole-actually it sprobably having little to no effect- better to scope and find out is it actually the problem rather than faffing around' trying' treatments and never quite sure did it work!


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## diggerbez (23 April 2012)

compared to some of CS' past exploits that rear is a bit half hearted...must do better  what a frustrating day...its weird that its only appeared right at the end of the test and not whilst warming up or through the first bit of it... can't offer any advice, only sympathy (i think i might have a left ove creme egg if you'd like that?)

LOVE the half pass pic!


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## Scarlett (23 April 2012)

If you think his belly might be bothering him have you thought of giving him a concentrate dose of something before competing just incase it's the stress/excitement of travelling/competing that's bothering him? A gastric supplement, not a calmer? Coiligone and Protexin both do a paste in a syringe. I've started giving my ulcery exracer boy Coligone before riding and there is a marked difference in his attitude. He went to his first show at the weekend and I dosed him a little extra before leaving. Even if they don't have ulcers per se these TB's do seem to be rather sensitive to gastric issues, and I've heard of people noticing a difference, even in TBs that don't have ulcers.

Just a thought, apologies oif you have already tried it and I've missed that bit.....


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## coreteam1 (23 April 2012)

Could just be a bit of the spring grass getting to him? I suppose they all act in different ways. I put Magnesium in my horses feed to just try and balance the sugars especially at this time of year. 
I've I 'm sure whatever it is it was just to keep you listening to him  
He looks beautiful as always


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## Rouletterose (23 April 2012)

As he reared instead of doing the second change, it could have just been that he tweaked something, couldn't come through for the movement, so went up instead.... have seen this happen so many times with different horses. Is he a worrier? if theres nowhere to go then they'll go up. The main thing is he is doing it so much less therefore he's so much more confident in you and what you are asking, also a bit of spring grass maybe?

Don't worry about it, although it is annoying, just keep asking and he'll get better and better.


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## charlie76 (23 April 2012)

Having just started competing my horse at medium I have found he becomes tense in the test but not at home.  I think a large proportion is due to the fact that are home and in the warm up you can pick and choose where and when to do the movements and abort them if need be if they get tense or worried whereas in a test situation the movements come thick and fast so one minor


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## charlie76 (23 April 2012)

Sorry hadn't finished! ...blip can snowball and they loose confidence and forward momentum.  Another thought would be to try and ride the test in a snaffle in case the tighter movements are making him react to the curb?
Lastly, if the ulcer supplement doesn't work I would drop him down a couple of levels for a few trips. Make him find it easy and get his confidence back.


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## BronsonNutter (23 April 2012)

Oh dear CS! Wilby hates the indoor at Arena UK too, if that's any consolation?
Nothing useful to suggest really, but fingers crossed you can get to the bottom of it. He looks fab beforehand (as ever! )


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (24 April 2012)

lots of interesting thoughts, thanks guys 

I did try coligone, and did give extra before shows but it seemed to have no consistant impact, sometimes he was better, sometimes just as likely to explode, so not sure if that was making much of a difference.

Omeprazole is definately ok under BD rules but thanks, and as far as the bioavailability goes, , i know 3/4 people now using it with huge sucess, proof is in the pudding so to speak, so am willing to give it a go, will do an update post when he's been on it for a few weeks just in case anyone is interested 

he cant have a long period of time off as otherwise he get a sticky stifle so he cant have a total holiday and he has to keep up with a little bit of *proper* work to keep on top of that, but he does do days of cantering in the field and pole work etc to keep it fresh and different.

its a hard one to explain and would be easier if i had a vid of him doing it, as he looks/feels very confident, bobbling along with ears pricked etc then quick as a flash goes up, and sometimes then instantly goes back to the job without blinking, sometimes needs a bit of squeezing back in to it. its a very odd feeling and makes it hard to know whats setting it off.

have actually got spanish trainer over this wekend, who wont have seen him for 6 months so be interesting to see what he picks up on, will report back on that too.

he will have a quite easy wekk this week, will see what trainer says over weekend, omeprazole is en route apparently, so hopefully by end of next week, will have a few more ideas.

oh Trouble-he has linseed oil which i think has made a diff, hadnt considered EPSM, although have had one with it before. he wears pelenty of rugs travelling is always toasty but not sweaty on arrival, do you think i should maybe walk him for longer with more rugs on when i arrive and try increasing oil? although just thinking, he is same as he is at home (in terms of forwardness/looseness/lack of spakking) when i go off site for lessons, so its got to be something show specific......................hmmmmmmmm..................


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## Halfstep (24 April 2012)

Just a very quick reply because it caught my eye:

I was on Omeprazole for stomach problems a few years ago and the side effects were worse than the symptoms. It made me dizzy, disoriented, sweaty and achy. Something to watch out for, I don't know what the dosage and possible contra-indicators are in horses. 

For what it's worth, I'd probably back off him completely, give him a few months easy no stress, no pressure. Advanced at 7 is a big ask for any horse, and he's definitely telling you he's having trouble with something.


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## Pasha (24 April 2012)

If it helps, I was going to try Omneprazole rather than scope on my opinionated, girthy, super sensitive and touchy boy... he is already on a low sugar/starch Linseed, Brewers Yeast and Yea Sacc High Fibre diet  and when I asked the woman who I buy my feed from about it, she suggested giving him Limestone Flour as an antacid! I can PM you everything she's said if it helps, but makes lots of sense!

Well what can I say? He has gone from a 51% shocker in his test a few weeks ago, to a happy, relaxed, forward, non-girthy and very impressive (for us) 68.8% and a red rosette last weekend! I did drop 2 levels after our disasterous last few outings, but the improvement was immense and it was a list 4 judge who knows her stuff so I am super pleased!

Well worth a go for only £1.40 for a huge bag!!! The only caveat is you would have to make sure he was getting plenty of the other vits and mins - I sort this out by using Global Vite


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## SusieT (24 April 2012)

I'd be inclined to think pain if it comes on that sharply.. suggests he has tweaked something/that movement hurts him-is it doing the movements that require more weight on the hind end that cause him to blow up?


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (24 April 2012)

no rhyme or reason to it, sometimes he blows up in a simple walk to trot, but then does HP or piris fine, some days other way round, no pattern at all.

HS-will watch out for any signs that the omeprazole isnt helping/is making it worse but the people i know using it are very experienced and competing at elem and medium and horses have dramatically improved, so worth a shot still it think.

Pasha-thanks, will add that to list. He gets seaweed, would that be ok for vits and mins?


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## Wilbur_Force (24 April 2012)

It's a tricky one! Sounds like it could be two different options - pain related in some way, shape or form; or his response when put under pressure? He's sensitive and you know that but he's trying to tell you something IMHO.  It could be something and nothing, really easy to fix, but that's the bloomin' hard part!


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## Pasha (24 April 2012)

Prince33Sp4rkle said:



			Pasha-thanks, will add that to list. He gets seaweed, would that be ok for vits and mins?
		
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It would depend on what his other feed is to be honest, but if he has a tummy problem (leaky gut or ulcers) apparently they don't absorb vits and mins as well and so they need more than the average horse would.... I feed Thunderbrook Base Mix which contains all the vits and mins a normal horse in light work would need, but then add Global Vite as he is in work and was lacking energy! Made a huge difference in his energy and only started the Limestone Flour on Saturday and on Sunday he was like a difference horse.

I will PM you what the lady wrote to me about Omneprazole and Limestone Flour, leaky Guts and ulcers etc as very interesting x


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## robthecob (24 April 2012)

Pasha would you mind pm'ing me those details too? It sounds very interesting


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## Angua2 (24 April 2012)

robthecob said:



			Pasha would you mind pm'ing me those details too? It sounds very interesting
		
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Me too please.

PS....apparently Seaweed can cause an imbalance with Iodine (IIRC), so perhaps a manufactured vitamin & mineral suppliment would be better.


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## wench (24 April 2012)

To be honest, I would get him scoped so you know one way or another if it was ulcers. I was convinced mine would have them, as she showed all the symptoms. I was astounded when the scope came back clear; however, we could then move onto other things to find out where the problem was coming from.


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## Ferdinase514 (24 April 2012)

wench said:



			To be honest, I would get him scoped so you know one way or another if it was ulcers. I was convinced mine would have them, as she showed all the symptoms. I was astounded when the scope came back clear; however, we could then move onto other things to find out where the problem was coming from.
		
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I'm with this too. You're firing shots in the dark guessing what is wrong with him. He is trying to tell you something isnt right and having trained him to the level you have, you are crazy to not investigate properly, whether it is to do with ulcers or other physical or mental problems.


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## Mel1 (24 April 2012)

sorry to hear you had a bad day,
just wanted to say that the first picture is absolutely stunning!


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## SpottedCat (24 April 2012)

I'm sure you're aware but there are some ulcers which don't respond to omaprazole, so unless you scope him, you aren't actually ruling ulcers out. Mine had ulcers which required antibiotic treatment to clear them up as gastrogard didn't touch them.


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## Booboos (24 April 2012)

How frustrating for you! The photos look wonderful, the first part of the test must have been really nice.

Just to add my two-pence: when F was scoped the vet also took a stool sample for a test for rectal ulcers which apparently you can't see with the scope, might be worth a thought. 

Also I noticed you mention a 'sticky stiffle'. This is a total shot in the dark and nothing to panic about but I had a horse whose sticky stiffle was a side-effect of his OCD. He was working at a much lower level than CS, but had managed to qualify for the nationals at novice and have placings at elem, all with two completely crippled back legs. The vet said it was one of the worst cases of OCD he had ever seen but you couldn't see any lameness until we nerve blocked him. He was also a highly strung character, sometimes brilliant, sometimes nuts - in retrospect he had a lot of pain to deal with. 

I am not suggesting this is the case with CS but perhaps the stiffle is a clue worth pursuing if it hasn't already been investigated by your vet.


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (24 April 2012)

will look in to the seaweed/iodine issue, thanks 

thanks for all support, lots to look in to and htink about. What makes it harder is that at home and lessons he is getting MORE and more reliable, more willing to go forward, far more settled etc................and im struggling to think of things that could only affect him on show days?

obv we have the potential tummy/ulcer issue, which could be made worse on show days by tension.
tack is same, pads and sheep are same as home stuff except white not cream.

makes no diff if travelling only 15min to vale view or 2 hours to a show.

he always goes out in field whilst i muck out, and has ad lib hay all morning and on way to show.

??????????????


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## ihatework (24 April 2012)

Prince33Sp4rkle said:



			will look in to the seaweed/iodine issue, thanks 

thanks for all support, lots to look in to and htink about. What makes it harder is that at home and lessons he is getting MORE and more reliable, more willing to go forward, far more settled etc................and im struggling to think of things that could only affect him on show days?

??????????????
		
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I said it a few months ago and again on this thread, but you seem to gloss over / dismiss the possibility.

Ring pressure.

He has moved up the levels very quickly, why not step him back once you have ruled out veterinary issues?


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## Countrychic (24 April 2012)

Just a few thoughts
What about trying a thermograph to see if there's anything pain related.
What about keeping him in work but a lower level? Maybe he's capable of the high level work but his brain is still a bit baby?
What about going out twice a week to any local shows or hiring schools and trying to let him get used to the atmosphere without the stress of competing?


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## Tr0uble (24 April 2012)

Might be worth a try re the oil...but it doesn't quite fit.


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (24 April 2012)

booboos-its ok, no panic, he has had stifles checked/blocked and its not OCD issues so can tick that off but thanks 

have school hired all winter and some days he is foot perfect, and they were the windiest, coldest busiest days etc and then just once or twice he has gone inside out for no apparent reason and spent the entire time going mad. went to same place 3 times in a row and 1st and last times he was ballistic, middle time he was a dobbin. all were middle of day, quiet times, nothing else going on on yard etc. had been in field on all 3 days, had same feed and same work prior etc.so its a good idea but so far all its proved is a further lack of pattern, if you know what i mean.he's actually getting VERY good about the warm up now, much less stress and leaping, this is definately cant/shant or wont rather than OMG excitment if you know what i mean again??????

im not glossing over the pressure aspect, but its a hard one to balance, if you back off him too much he definately gets worse and the comfort zone gets smaller, which in some ways says its not physical. If he has to have 3/4 days off he is always more prone to rearing the day i get back on, will literally do it as soon as i get on, as if checking im still as brave as i was before (and ive tried giving him several days off then trotting up/prodding/poking-NO pain response).

have also had him on bute for 2 weeks which made no difference either way, better OR worse.

rearing IS his thing-he's done it since a 2yo and he will try it in hand to if he doesnt think you are paying attention, a few times when ive been leading him in and not paying 100% to him, maybe texting or casting eye over fig, he's nipped round the back of me quick as a flash and started boxing at me.
if you march him along and almost stare him down, he wont do it.


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## jacksmum (24 April 2012)

ihatework said:



			I said it a few months ago and again on this thread, but you seem to gloss over / dismiss the possibility.

Ring pressure.

He has moved up the levels very quickly, why not step him back once you have ruled out veterinary issues?
		
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Totally agree with this.


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## noodle_ (24 April 2012)

wench said:



			To be honest, I would get him scoped so you know one way or another if it was ulcers. I was convinced mine would have them, as she showed all the symptoms. I was astounded when the scope came back clear; however, we could then move onto other things to find out where the problem was coming from.
		
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FWIW - my horse competes nowhere near as high as you OP but i think its still relevent... we did a prelim test and the little sod wouldnt canter...(she had ulcers, scoped in feb) sunday, she wouldnt canter - monday she had an ulcers attack (mild colic signs) she was re-scoped tuesday and showed grade 2 ulcers

shes currently on GG until it runs out then Omeprazole, as its more affordable - but shes a much happier, relaxed horse on GG - just incredibly bored from no work (riding again monday)....!

just a thought... i know its only prelim but she got incredobly stressed as it was spooky/scary etc... same at all levels imo - horses cope in different ways

her grad 2 ulcers arnt severe anymore (they were in feb - worst some specialist had ever seen - my horse stopped eating)

eeee massive essay


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (24 April 2012)

guess i will know one way or other when omeprazole arrives, but would they get better/worse/better worse ie fluctuate only when going to shows?


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## AshTay (24 April 2012)

Don't think this has been mentioned but might there be something about the lighting at competitions (indoor?) which might be freaking him in seemingly random places? Even just a sudden reflection off someone's watch might be enough to upset him if he's focussing on you and then suddenly something bright and quick catches his eye. Just a thought.
Beautiful horse, by the way!!


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## nuttychestnuthorse (24 April 2012)

Hi, I've been following your threads for a little while now as I think your boy is stunning! I'm gettin my mare scoped on Friday as we progress so far in her schooling then she just explodes for no reason! I've found a link on here for omeprozole


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## nuttychestnuthorse (24 April 2012)

Stupid phone post!! And some people import it from America, is that what you do? Or do it thro vet? I'm just weighing up my options if I find out on Friday that she has them as not keen on goin thro insurance if I can find a cheaper way of treating them x


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## Ilovefoals (24 April 2012)

If it's the granules you are getting from that American website, don't bother. I got them for D and you have to sprinkle them on their feed. For a start, Omeprazole is meant to be given on an empty stomach. When I gave her GG it had to be first thing, half an hour before breakfast to work effectively. And secondly, she drops her feed all over the place and when she's finished, half the granules are stuck to the side of the bucket. I've noticed no difference in her behaviour at all and feel I've wasted my money


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## SpottedCat (24 April 2012)

You won't know either way if he has the type of ulcers which don't respond to omaprazole. Mine had some which did (splash ulcers) but clearing them up had no effect on performance, and some which didn't...and it wasn't till we cleared them with antibiotics that an improvement in performance was seen, despite the month on gastrogard.


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## MileAMinute (24 April 2012)

I'd get him scoped, tbh.

You've clearly put a lot of time, effort and money into getting CS to the level he's at....why not pay that little bit more for a definite diagnosis and a way forward?


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## seabsicuit2 (24 April 2012)

I dont get the people who believe that this is a horse that is suffering from being too pressured/worked too hard. Apart from anything else, he's a thoroughbred, he is bred for racing, he is NOT bred to be a riding horse or dressage horse, he is bred for galloping. His bloodlines  are reknown for being difficult- they are horses that make a screaming fuss about going into starting stalls or simply galloping in a straight line.  Yes we have many racehorses that retrain well to do other sports with no fuss- but a large majority do not.
I think that P_S has done such a good job with this horse, athletically, he obviously finds the job very easy, but mentally, because of the way he is bred, he flips a switch from time to time. Like so many thoroughbreds do. People shouldnt compare him to other warmbloods or generally bred sport horses and expect the same levels of behaviour/performance. Doing less work/easier shows is probably not the answer. He is just a sod. You talk to anyone in racing and they'll all tell you that certain pedigrees are little buggers and that you can hardly do anything with them. Its not a pain/pressure thing- they are just like that!! A horse that randomly starts rearing in your face for no known reason when being brought in from the field- is a sod!!
 I think that PS should keep perservering,she's done remarkably well to get to where she has done, and one day the the horse will probably settle down and enjoy his work. Maybe gastroguard will make a difference- who knows? But he is so good at home, so doubt its ulcer related, but who knows, it might be.
 You just cant compare a horse like this to 'normal' riding horses, and then go and criticise him for his bad behaviour, he is just bred and wired up completly differently.


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## nikkimariet (24 April 2012)

ihatework said:



			I said it a few months ago and again on this thread, but you seem to gloss over / dismiss the possibility.

Ring pressure.

He has moved up the levels very quickly, why not step him back once you have ruled out veterinary issues?
		
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Considering that PS and CS finished last season with an Advanced (where we had no antics), but have started out this season doing Advanced Medium (where the antics have returned); if it really was ring pressure, surely his behaviour would be the same at every show, regardless of level? 



seabsicuit2 said:



			He is just a sod.
		
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Hahaaaaa


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## MillionDollar (24 April 2012)

I agree with Nikki, if it was ring pressure surely he'd explode every time, not just occasionally! 

Anyway, it's so frustrating, even more so when you don't know what it is...........he looks amazing in the first pic  so fingers crossed you get him sorted asap.


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## Firewell (24 April 2012)

Tbh I think it was just 'one of those days'. I always think you seem remarkably consistent in the way you bring CS on. Its fairly clear from the reports on here that he isn't actually competed all that much. Some 7yr olds ar out eventing every weekend over intermediate BE courses with pro's and thats hard work!
I think he just had a moment, who knows why. Probably best to put that performance behind you and look to the next one. The rearing seems pretty sporadic so doubt it's pain. If he hurt that much he'd tell you where to go and put you on the floor.
If it was me and I thought there was ulcers id get him scoped so you know but he may not have any, you have him on good diet and he gets turnout so he may be fine.
My mums having lessons at the moment with a top dressage lady and shes always telling stories of her sharp warmbloods playing up. Comes with the territory, if you want them to be so reactive in order to perform, energy is bound to slip out the net from time to time in to an unwanted display .
Onwards and upwards!


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## nikkimariet (24 April 2012)

black_horse said:



			CS might not have given antics at advanced, but prolongs pressure can cause a horse to react. Surely he is being trained harder and to a higher level then he is competing at? So, just because he is competing at Advanced Med, doesnt mean he is under less pressure.
		
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We're talking about ring pressure here. The level at which CS is trained was not referenced in the earlier point made.


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## nikkimariet (24 April 2012)

black_horse said:



			ETA, you might have deleted your first comment about changing my horses bit. Very harsh opinion you have nowadays. Pity really.
		
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Yes. Exactly. My opinion. Didn't you just point out above that we're all entitled to that?


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## nikkimariet (24 April 2012)

black_horse said:



			No but oyur opinion is usualyl very sarcastic comments. Its funny, it truely is, how quickly a spin of 180 degrees can be. 

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Nope. No sarcasm *shrugs*


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## luckyhorseshoe (24 April 2012)

Ps if I were you I would get him scoped (but that's just because I'm paranoid about everything). However, this test with the drug sounds just as good and must be worth a go! Tbh, doesn't sound that different to the bute test. 
Let us know how you get on!
Wish you luck.


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## rhino (24 April 2012)

luckyhorseshoe said:



			Tbh, doesn't sound that different to the bute test.
		
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Except a bute test doesn't generally involve illegally importing drugs 

Agree that I would be scoping, just to be sure. Fingers crossed it's nothing that can't be sorted


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## Worried1 (24 April 2012)

Have you tried fly net on his ears? It makes a massive difference to Arthur...


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## lostmymarbles (24 April 2012)

A genuine question if you suspected that you had ulcers would you treat yourself blindly or would you want full medical investigations, including a scope so they could be treated correctly?


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## ester (24 April 2012)

I don't understand the reluctance to scope so that you would know conclusively whether that is what you were dealing with , I suppose just because I think would scope the ageing welshie if I suspected ulcers so would certainly scope something I was expecting to compete.


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## bananas_22 (24 April 2012)

lostmymarbles said:



			A genuine question if you suspected that you had ulcers would you treat yourself blindly or would you want full medical investigations, including a scope so they could be treated correctly?
		
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Though this question wasn't posed at me, I'm going to answer it anyway 

Yes, I would probably treat myself blindly...can't stand going to the doctors/hospital etc and much prefer to try to solve things myself if possible before I resort to expensive/intrusive/etc medical investigations. Just my opinion


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## ester (24 April 2012)

There is a difference though, you know what you feel/what hurts it is rather more speculative when dealing with animals!


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## bananas_22 (24 April 2012)

ester said:



			There is a difference though, you know what you feel/what hurts it is rather more speculative when dealing with animals! 

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Exactly. I was just answering the question posed  Whether the question was a good comparison to make in the first place is for everybody to decide individually.  Given the more speculative nature of dealing with animals, you could argue for _either_ a more speculative approach to diagnosis, _or_ a more direct route. Depends on the animal in question, circumstances, owner's own personal approach etc.


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## amage (24 April 2012)

I am a bit bemused by the ring pressure suggestion. He is hardly a horse that is over competed and while he has moved up the grades he is a sharp and intelligent personality. I actually wonder would competing him more - perhaps every week for a month - be worth a trial so that he learns when he is in the ring he is on and that is that.


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## Fuzzypuff (24 April 2012)

A few of my thoughts...

If it is hindgut ulcers I believe they aren't treated by gastroguard etc. but have heard that Succeed can be good for this. Pricey but may be worth a try.

What is your forage feeding pattern like before you work him and at shows? My last horse, before I got him scoped, would be better if I gave him hay before he was tacked up (he had ad-lib but I would still give him extra while I groomed etc.). He was then scoped and found to have ulcers. Apparently an alfa feed before work can be even better as it neutralises the acid. Is there something perhaps in the amount of time he has to hang around between classes that he doesn't get quite as much hay on some show days? Worth testing this out methinks.

In terms of your feeding, have you considered getting his forage/grazing analysed and putting him on a balanced mineral diet? Would help you rule out imbalances in the diet.

I think in terms of it only happening at shows - the whole day is more stressful for them and therefore more likely to produce extra acid so worse ulcer symptoms.

Have you thought of trying a massage pad to use before riding? I wouldn't be without mine and don't get on my horse without using it first as the difference is so huge!

Can you get someone to video you consistently at home and at competitions? This might give you an opportunity to watch the videos back and look for signs that you might not see on the day as it all happens too quickly.


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## Louise_88 (24 April 2012)

He looks lovely, I was actually there and saw your test and his reaction did seem to come out of nowhere. 
Like others have said he looks like a very intelligent horse that possibly over reacts to certain things. My own WB decided to have a tantrum at the start of his first test and then proceeded to carry on and finish his test with some really good work and then do his first AM without a hitch and a nice score, some horses just are abit sharp and react to slight things, I know for me it was that I was abit strong with my leg and being a sensitive horse he told me to bugger off. 
That's some horses for you. 

Like you said onwards and upwards, you are doing a brill job with him.


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## dressagecrazy (24 April 2012)

I feed Succeed & maintenance dose of Omprazole for my Ulcer horse. Fwiw we didn't scope this horse as he had come down with colic. It had got to the point I couldn't ride him in the afternoon otherwise he would colic. It had also got to a serious point where I was having to wait for the scoping, so to cut a long story short we went for the Gastrogard route. 
My insurance actually covered the whole thing as like they said they would rarther pay for Gastrogard & have a well horse than a horse in for colic surgery.
This was in 2009 & I've now learned to deal with his many gut issues.

If I didn't have the urgency that I was under with my horse I would of definitely gone down the scoping route. I just didn't have the time on my side to do this as we where very worried with the colic.

I would say though that I wouldn't think you would get one behaviour at home & another at shows due to Ulcers. but horses always amaze me.

I think taking the pressure off him though may be a good thing regardless as if he is suffering Ulcers he would do well having a break. If no Ulcers then I think a re-think may be needed anyway.


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## Booboos (24 April 2012)

Glad it's not his stiffles! Horrible thing OCD!

Just another thought, could it be his eyes? I remember reading an article about  Werth's Satchmo and his very unpredictable behaviour which turned out to be down to an eye problem (membranes were floating in his eye and causing him to spook, once removed he was fine). This may be clutching at straws, but since everyone is throwing ideas out there you never know!


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## Lolo (24 April 2012)

Ignoring all the other bits as I have nothing helpful to offer, the good bits look lovely and the naughty bits look like you dealt with them very efficiently. 

Hope you get it sorted as well- so frustrating for you both! He almost looks confused/ not sure what he's doing in the naughty photos... Maybe a brain blip when it all got a bit too much and he lost his way a bit? So when you then pushed him forwards he was given a really clear instruction and he could get himself back on track?


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## Boysy (24 April 2012)

Just to add into the mix, I have a New Forest pony mare, she's only 13.3 and as beautiful/sensitive/docile/dependable as they come etc etc etc, can trust her with your life..... But and it's a big BUT, sometimes she rears...... for no apparent reason whatsoever and they literally come out of no-where, i.e. standing with the other kids at PC quietly one second and waving front legs in the air the next, back down and standing quietly again as if nothing were amiss. Or standing in the line up at a show, up/down and back to sleep....She doesn't move any other muscle aside from her front legs to go up bolt upright and come back down..............

I've had her 8yrs now and she probably only rears once/twice a yr now if that however when i got her she reared a whole lot more with a lot more expression and also some warning - LOL........ I am positive hers is an inability to contain and then express herself, perhaps excitement/nerves I don't know but it seems to be her way of letting it out and once it's done she's back to her usual dependable self.

Her rears have never intended to get you off either as far as I am concerned, I've never felt in danger and neither has my daughter who now has the ride as she's so calm when she does it.


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## nikkimariet (24 April 2012)

black_horse said:



			Maybe i have observed you too much? Or seen your 'wrong' side when you have commented to others if things havent gone your way?

My opinion? The history of ulcers need question. Omeprazole is not only a horrid drug but not really that good in my opinion. 

As for PS and CS competing, my opinion is my own. But i will say, there are no quick fixes to behaviour. Especially three months...

ETA - its amazing how quickly you change your posts  have you considered a gold medal?
		
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Is this your attempt at ripping out my throat and shoving me off my high horse?....

You of all people should know to be more careful about what you post online. You got caught out before - what with the whole taking pictures of someone elses dressage test sheet - which didn't do you many favours, did it...?


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## nikkimariet (24 April 2012)

Firewell said:



			Tbh I think it was just 'one of those days'. I always think you seem remarkably consistent in the way you bring CS on. Its fairly clear from the reports on here that he isn't actually competed all that much. Some 7yr olds ar out eventing every weekend over intermediate BE courses with pro's and thats hard work!
		
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Yes, exactly, not like we're banging out a competition week in week out 



Worried1 said:



			Have you tried fly net on his ears? It makes a massive difference to Arthur...
		
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He hates them  CS not a headshaker, but does a brilliant impression of a chronic one with a tw4t cap on!



lostmymarbles said:



			A genuine question if you suspected that you had ulcers would you treat yourself blindly or would you want full medical investigations, including a scope so they could be treated correctly?
		
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Thing is though - genuine remark - where do you stop, with all the prodding and poking, how many tests to be carried out, how many x rays to be taken etc etc. Surely better to see if first treating a suspected cause of aggro works? It will be a simple and obvious yes or no outcome (I hope!!).



amage said:



			I am a bit bemused by the ring pressure suggestion. He is hardly a horse that is over competed and while he has moved up the grades he is a sharp and intelligent personality. I actually wonder would competing him more - perhaps every week for a month - be worth a trial so that he learns when he is in the ring he is on and that is that.
		
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Yes, I wondered that too. Perhaps it is just the beginning of the season? Maybe he will pick up where he left off last season soon? 



Fuzzypuff said:



			Have you thought of trying a massage pad to use before riding? I wouldn't be without mine and don't get on my horse without using it first as the difference is so huge!

Can you get someone to video you consistently at home and at competitions? This might give you an opportunity to watch the videos back and look for signs that you might not see on the day as it all happens too quickly.
		
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We have an equissage pad, I used it a lot on creaky Bruce, but CS gets such good feedback from physio neither of us have considered it before - thanks! I will get PS onto this 



black_horse said:



			leopards never change theirs spots NMT, why not go and take the micky out of fat riders again?
		
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For someone who took the mickey* out of another posters spelling a few pages back, that's a poor effort.


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## Chloe..x (24 April 2012)

Jesus christ why is it that when the lovely CS has one of his "moments" people start getting on PS back about pressure. Not sure of his age but he's hardly pressured when you compare him to professional riders horses. It's evident that PS has done a fantastic job with him and every horse has its moments e.g satchmo and Kevin Staut's Silvana and Kraque Boom when they just didn't want to play in two successive Nations Cups (I think) 


FWIW black_horse you seem to have an air of arrogance around yourself with the spelling error earlier in this thread and certain posts of yours recently. Dee has her moments more than CS it seems so I think you need to back off with the criticism.


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## TarrSteps (24 April 2012)

Back to the topic at hand . . 

Giving Gastroguard as a "first response" in cases of suspected ulcers is hardly unheard of in parts of the world where it's trickier and more expensive (and insurance is not the overriding concern it is here) to get a horse scoped.  However, always the GG paste and used only as directed re dosage, timing etc, not the feed through products.  I think the feeling is there are too many potentially mitigating factors to get a good "read" with the granules.  And, as mentioned above, GG isn't a failsafe, so the test, if it's negative, is not conclusive.  As to whether or not ulcer pain responds to circumstances, I've never been a horse but it certainly seems to work that way for at least some people.

Re the rearing, all horses have a "thing" and I've certainly known ones that stood up at the drop of a hat, in the same situations where another horse might plant, another might buck etc.  Behaviours are expressions not just reactions and there is a tendency for horses to pull out their "stand by" in different circumstances, just like some people are yellers, some are criers etc.  So you can't say, "horses with x will buck" etc.  You also can't assume that grumpiness is across the board, either - like the rest of us, some are grumpy if the wind blows the wrong way, others wouldn't be grumpy if the world was ending.  It's a case of being able to read and assess the individual and take the picture as a whole, not just looking to tick boxes.

The problem with ulcers, too, which seems to have completely fallen out of discussion these days, is they seem to be generally accepted to be, in many cases, a reaction to stress.  That COULD come from management issues, travel stress etc. but there could easily be other factors in play, including chronic pain.  I DO NOT THINK THIS IS RELEVANT TO THE OP'S HORSE, IT GOES TO THE GENERAL DISCUSSION.  If we want to accept, as some do now, that they are only and always the result of infection, then there's no reason to consider management changes (although they work for some . . .) and the only way forward is aggressive treatment.  So we can't have it both ways - if they are random, then it has to be the strongest necessary meds, if "we" cause them with management or other stresses, then we at least have to consider culpability.  I know vets made these connections well before GG and similar were commonly available and I don't see what's changed in horses since.  In so much as it's my business, I wonder how many horses' "loss of performance" is now put down to ulcers when in fact they are a symptom not a cause.  Treating the ulcers will undoubtedly make the horse more comfortable and produce a general improvement in performance.  But the question still is why were they there in the first place?  

Anyway, back to the OP.  Very frustrating.  He may in fact just be one of those that loses his marbles from time to time - there have been some very famous dressage horses prone to proper toys out moments!  Or there may be some pattern so subtle it's not presented yet.  I had one to work with who freaked when he turned his head a particular way, although he was jumping etc the rest of the time.  I've known a few stallions that stood up over nothing and nicely nicely wouldn't cut it.  Although one was completely "cured" by a big man with a big stick, out winning within weeks, but then was diagnosed with hock problems soon after.  Goes to show you never can tell.

What do you feel before it happens?  Anything?  A sort of a snap/intake of breath?  Hesitation?  I did have one that "flipped" and his problems were primarily mental (I knew all of his history) and he gave no warning - he once flipped over in a line of jumps!  His "cure" was to go waaaaay back and put it all back together again.  Another horse might get past it differently.  

Re horses being inherently sods, it really does happen, especially in "known" lines.  (This is one of the reasons I can't understand why more people aren't interested in bloodlines.)  I will say though, in my experience, it's usually not unpredictable as such, except in cases where it's REALLY unpredictable and the horse is obviously mentally/neurologically ill.  That doesn't sound like the OPs horse.  He may in fact be "reactive" although the question would still be why, especially when it's not consistent with being asked specific questions.  That said, the behaviour is hardly new!

I suspect this is one of those things where only time will tell - you can't fix what you can't find.  I would still say GG over granules if you are going to go that route, but of course that's your choice.  Otherwise, perhaps he needs to go out more?  That seems to be the only thing that's not been tried.  Maybe he needs to drop down a level of two and go out every weekend for awhile?

I would also say - and will no doubt draw fire with it - that your curb shank often seems very engaged.  Perhaps there is something about the placement or adjustment of the curb bit which "bites" him once and awhile?  What sort of curb strap are you using?


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## charlie76 (25 April 2012)

Tarrsteps- I agree re the double.  I mentioned riding the test in a snaffle a few posts back but no response! I agree that the curb looks pretty influential and in a test when riding a lots of tighter movements in quick succession this could well be the problem. Would also explain why he got his tongue over the bit. In your training pics (look back ans see) you don't seem to have the curb rein as short .this simple thing is easy to solve.


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## Amymay (25 April 2012)

Does he do this when the curb chain is not engaged?


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## chels (25 April 2012)

I don't know if it's any help, but I my guy is very similar to CS in a lot of ways it seems!
He's a crossbred (Not TB). He can be quite cold backed (worse when out at shows, so possibly tension related?) so when he's stood at the truck he wears a BOT back pad (ceramic, similar to magnetic therapy). Def makes a difference, so I think the massage pad would be a good idea to try for CS?
He's super grass reactive, so is on a pretty strict diet, but lives out. He only gets fresh grass at night (less sugar) and hay in the morning. Probably not applicable to a stabled horse.
He does get a fibre based feed (speedi beet and lucerne) before he's ridden if he's been boxed (so normally shows away) or been stood at the truck for awhile, to reduce the acid splash ulcer thing. About 40-30 mins before I get on?

Some times, he just throws his toys. After MUCH exploration, there is nothing wrong with the animal. Sometimes he just says NO. As someone else put it, he can be a sod, and is totally random with it. He'll be doing a lovely test, and bang, he'll go straight up (either in front or behind). No certain movement, occasionally there is a trigger that may have spooked him, but not always, sometimes it's learning something new, not always. My guy is 16, always been the same, come to the conclusion it's just the way he is!

Probably no help at all PS, but I do understand and sympathise! Hope you can get to the bottom of it, CS is certainly a stunning horse


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## robthecob (25 April 2012)

I know it's the standard response but I would almost want to be ruling out pain elsewhere which will obviously be hard with the lack of pattern to the asbo behaviour 

You say his a lazy toad? It doesn't seem to fit with the rest of his personality. My only experience with performance loss is with my own mare who slowly started to throw her toys out the pram. 90% of the time she was fine but lazy, sitting behind the leg only doing what she had to do. But she was eager to please and she carried on without argument. I too treated for ulcers and when it made no difference I concluded that she was a lazy sod. I finally listened to her when she shouted there was something wrong by rearing straight up on the road. Horses are generally giving I think is what I'm trying to say and it may not be pain but it would now be my first port of call.

Could it be the sticky stifle? Is there any other little indicators that we might be missing? Does he stand square at rest? 

His obviously a super talented horse and I hope I'm wrong but when your banging your head against a brick wall and wasting entry fees it's worth looking at all the possibilitys?


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## Sameru (25 April 2012)

FWIW - I for one HATE the argueing over poor PS/CS's posts.  If he were mine, I would continue/perservere to mid season and see how you fair.  I would also have Tarrsteps take a look at him - she is insightful, unbiased and may well be able to make informed suggestions.


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (25 April 2012)

blimey loads to reply to! thanks 

will work down replies from top-yes he stands square at rest, and trots away sound after flexions/lunges sounds on a tight circle. The stifle the vet is sure is a ligament prob not a joint prob and s long as he's in work, it only happens 2/3 times a year now. He did have nerves blocks etc as a 4yo and vet concluded def not stifle so i think safe to say that isnt the prob?

Curb-yes i noticed that too and am not 100% sure why as it didnt used to look like that. I thought it was due to a bridoon change but have swapped back and it seems to be still swivelling right round even under little pressure.............the curb chain has a rubber guard on it and IS loose, but will def try a different pad on it, and also a leather curb chain. 

The tongue over bit was just a freak thing i think, he hasnt done it before and wasnt trying(i couldnt feel him opening mouth/drawing tongue up etc), i think he just happened to be mouthing the bit as perhaps i picked the rein up and somehow it created a space the tongue flipped in to so i think we can ignore that as a totally random thing.

he does it MORE/worse in the snaffle, he prefers the weight of the double and takes a firmer more forward contact in it, sits behind the snaffle no matter how thick/soft and spins whilst rearing more often in it. The double has actually made a huge difference to his forward thinking-ness (great english lol!), and on the times ive tried to canter him in the field in the snaffle since moving to the double,he totally spits the dummy and naps to a standstill (this has to be seen to be believed, NMT will tell you how disconcerting it is to watch him wriggle and grind his way in to the top corner and then simply refuse to move!)

can, and will, definately try the equissage again. he wears a magnet rug daily and before shows as i felt that worked better for him, but can def try the equissage again without any effort so will do that 

TS-i sometimes feel his shoulders *block* for a half stride then bang-up, but more often he seems to be swinging out in to the next stride and then retract it like lightening, sit down and stand up. theres no gradual grumping/chewing bit/swishing tail etc.

I do understand what you are saying re scoping/omeprazole/GG all of you, but ive put a HUGE amount of time in to researching this and spoken to 2 vets about it.I cannot afford GG full time, even at the maintenance dose so there has to be an alternative found. Scoping CS wouldnt be easy as he isnt good with men and isnt easy for the vet, dont get me wrong, we COULD do it, but ive spoken to  several UK people using the omeprazole with super results and in the US its used far more widely with again good results, barely any problems/lack of improvment and there are hundreds if not thousands of horses on it. Bearing that in mind, £150 or so to try it, seems worth it to me? I spoke to my own vet, and a close friend who is a vet, both said the way he barely does it at home or in lessons doesnt really tie in with a huge physical issue, if physical at all, but that the omeprazole was worth a try and my vet would discuss further if i then wanted to scope.

Louise-thank you, nice to have an outside view from someone who has seen it happen.

Lolo-thats exactly what trainer says, like he does it, but doesnt look sure why and is happier if i can get in there and stop him doing it almost. trainer thinks its mental, ie learned behaviour but is now getting to point that he does it because he always has, not because there a current reason. He HAS done this since a 2yo and has always been prone to it with me, its not a new or unusual thing and perhap i have made a mountain out of a molehill without meaning to, through frustration??????i totted sheets up, and if he had got a 7 for that change instead of a 1 for the rear (got a 7 for every other change all day), got even a 6 on submission instead of a 5 (double marks too) and a 6 or 7 for the final cnetre line instead of a 4, he would have been on 63 % which given judge and compared to last week at Vale, is probably about right. Harder to tot up the second test but he got solid 7's for the canter work, and was let down by the splattering of 4 and 5's for the walk and crap piris and then crap transition to trot and canter after the walk. Had he not had to stop to fiddle with tongue, i dont think he would have dropped behind leg.
If id come home with 2 x 63% i would have been happy, so maybe ive made too much of this out of frustration/emotion?????


not saying for a sec that i not going to check/investigate things BTW!

fuzzypuff-he has ad lib forage all day before a show, only time he cant eat is actually in the warm up! he does eat en route and scoffs like mad once we arrive, and im one of those *early rather than late* people, so he always has at least half an hour to munch before i tack up.
he had alfalfa bricks over winter and it made no difference to his behaviour at all.

have hard mixed reports on succeed-anyone else using it?

Eyes-will def get vet to look at this next time he's on yard, or actually vet friend is over fri, can get her to have a look at him, i know its completely none scientific but he shows equal reaction to movement on both sides of head and has no prob seeing in the dark/dull light. But have actually seen Satchmo's explosions in action and it does look similar so worth a check up, thank you!!!!!

Breeding wise, both Daylami and Alzao are known to have thrown tricky ones, so genes are not on my side lol! his breeder and race trainer both found him tricky which of course could mean a long term physical issue, but the fact he is 500% better now than as a 4yo doesnt really follow that pattern.

If ive missed anything prod me-rather a lot to think though/work through.

Can play with equissage and curb chain/pads over weekend, get eyes check fri and will update on omeprazole when it arrives.


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## ester (25 April 2012)

as a bit of an aside given post #9 on this thread is it legal to be giving omeprazole instead of GG anyway? 

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=530886

PS my logic thinking would be re the shows that CS has just had a break from comps and has only done two since coming back (the first of which wasn't ideal situ wise and may have wound him up) and that he might just get better for going out in that environment a bit more so it is less of a 'thing/occasion' as such.


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## glamourpuss (25 April 2012)

Firstly can I say that I really hope you get to the bottom of this...both you & CS are obviously very talented.
Also what I love about PS reports is they really are warts & all. Sometimes it feels in here that nobody is allowed to have a bad day or make mistakes. It is refreshing to see someone willing to show the bad as well as the good!
Also can I also say that I'm pleased that *on the whole* this has been a decent thread to read. Apart from a couple of posts which are obviously trying to get a rise out of PS & NMT  it has been full of interesting advice.


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (25 April 2012)

Thanks GP 

i dont really want to get drawn in to the legality issue, as i understand it, if its not for re-sale, its a grey area, and if i get hauled off in handcuffs..................NMT gets the ride on CS (i know you love him really nik!!!!)

I cannot afford GG long term, and omeprazole has shown to be a viable alternative for many many horses, hence its worth a try at the very least, and in any case, its on way now, so i shall try that and then see if i feel its going to work or if we need to scope or try something else.pehaps a hasty decision to order it now, but whats done is done and i will try it when it arrives, and monitor very closely.


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## TarrSteps (25 April 2012)

Are elastic curb straps legal for dressage here? They've been just the ticket for some buzzy show jumpers over the years.


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## charlie76 (25 April 2012)

TarrSteps said:



			Are elastic curb straps legal for dressage here? They've been just the ticket for some buzzy show jumpers over the years.
		
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I have sewn my curb chain into a prolite curb pad, my boy is 100% happier with this.


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## SpottedCat (25 April 2012)

Dunno if it's relevant, but you may not need GG long term - my chap isnt on it routinely, he's managed on a day to day basis with supplement/diet/care then if he does anything stressful I use GG for 4 days before hand and during the event. So when he did the 3 day last year, he had quarter of a tube a day for 4 days before we left, then quarter of a tube a day each day we were there. 

Lots of horses are managed this way. Total cost £60 which in the grand scheme of a 3 day is peanuts. 

He events up to intermediate one days without anything except careful management and ulcer calm fed before riding and again in his other feed.


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## TarrSteps (25 April 2012)

^ That was my point re the Gg as a diagnostic. Not that the granules aren't effective for long term management, just that the Gg is a more definitive test, if only because it is more easily controlled.


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## nikkimariet (25 April 2012)

robthecob said:



			You say his a lazy toad? It doesn't seem to fit with the rest of his personality.
		
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Oh god no, it really is a lazy toad. Turning them out this morning, Fig was marching me off my feet up the field and I was dragging CS along behind me  You really wouldn't believe he was bred for going fast!!



Prince33Sp4rkle said:



			i dont really want to get drawn in to the legality issue, as i understand it, if its not for re-sale, its a grey area, and if i get hauled off in handcuffs..................NMT gets the ride on CS (i know you love him really nik!!!!)
		
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Meep  



charlie76 said:



			I have sewn my curb chain into a prolite curb pad, my boy is 100% happier with this.
		
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Oooh I feel a diy session coming on - sounds like a clever idea. We have lots of spare pads etc floating around, sure we can knock something up


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## CreepyKikiKev (25 April 2012)

Crap at HHO. But re curb chains, you have to have a metal one WITH a cover (cover can be anything) but you cant have a leather one. So that is worth remembering.

Also have nothing to add except my trainer and I (who also trains PS) both remarked that we have difficult horses in the sense of them being bloody hot and sharp, yet as PS put it "idle toads" they totally drop you. So I dont think that is terrilbly unusual.

I have also seen PS when we have hired arenas together etc and I saw him do it once then totally unprovoked and without any reason that I could/ see hear. Making this a little more difficult was he was then VERY hard to get back on side and truly PS did everything she could (0r that I would) and yes he came through it, but in a test situation it would not have been "quick enough". 

Again having seen Fran in the flesh, she has done a lovely job with him, I have even ridden him out of  his home environment and felt a lovely, happy horse , so I do hope these issues gets sorted. As with all these topics, when you ask for help you do get a can of worms and I suppose it is inevitable.

ETA fran read earlier somewhere back, you only gave a little of the calmer, I have a  vague recollection of him doing something similar when you tried a bit before, maybe put him back on the whole thing for a bit?


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## imr (25 April 2012)

CKK - I think you can have a leather chain:

"The curb chain may be made of leather, metal or a combination and must be fitted in the
conventional way" - from this year's bd rules.

I don't have any thoughts really otherwise other than the curb and keeping it looser seems like something to try, and maybe seeing if competing more or less helps. Hope it does get better x


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## Saratoga (25 April 2012)

Thought it might be worth noting that I have sometimes seen a reaction to the curb if the chain is a little too loose - in that it lets the curb rotate too far before coming into play. Might be worth playing with the tightness of it as well as the cover at home and see what reaction you get, and not necessarily just go looser?


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## Moomin1 (25 April 2012)

Chloe..x said:



			Jesus christ why is it that when the lovely CS has one of his "moments" people start getting on PS back about pressure. Not sure of his age but he's hardly pressured when you compare him to professional riders horses. It's evident that PS has done a fantastic job with him and every horse has its moments e.g satchmo and Kevin Staut's Silvana and Kraque Boom when they just didn't want to play in two successive Nations Cups (I think) 


FWIW black_horse you seem to have an air of arrogance around yourself with the spelling error earlier in this thread and certain posts of yours recently. Dee has her moments more than CS it seems so I think you need to back off with the criticism.
		
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Don't really want to get too involved in this discussion as to be honest I can't stand the competition bitchiness within the horse world!  But have to say I didn't really think BH's initial comments were in any way critical - just making suggestions and offering an opinion about scoping before 'treating'.  An opinion which many other people have echoed on this thread.  

PS and NMT strike me (as an outsider who doesn't know any of them) to be very defensive and prickly for some reason!


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## Moomin1 (25 April 2012)

Prince33Sp4rkle said:



			Thanks GP 

i dont really want to get drawn in to the legality issue, as i understand it, if its not for re-sale, its a grey area, and if i get hauled off in handcuffs..................NMT gets the ride on CS (i know you love him really nik!!!!)

I cannot afford GG long term, and omeprazole has shown to be a viable alternative for many many horses, hence its worth a try at the very least, and in any case, its on way now, so i shall try that and then see if i feel its going to work or if we need to scope or try something else.pehaps a hasty decision to order it now, but whats done is done and i will try it when it arrives, and monitor very closely.
		
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Maybe cut down on the amount of matchy matchy and new fashionable gear then you could afford the GG long term!!  Sorry...couldn't resist!!


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## CreepyKikiKev (25 April 2012)

imr said:



			CKK - I think you can have a leather chain:

"The curb chain may be made of leather, metal or a combination and must be fitted in the
conventional way" - from this year's bd rules.
		
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 :thumbs: thank you- I must be a fossil rememebering an old rule!


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## Vickijay (25 April 2012)

I saw these when I was googling dead sheep products!

http://www.equishopping.co.uk/item-TheHorseWardrobe190.htm

Looks a bit big but very comfy!!! Maybe there are others!!


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## bananas_22 (25 April 2012)

Moomin1 said:



			Don't really want to get too involved in this discussion as to be honest I can't stand the competition bitchiness within the horse world!
		
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Moomin1 said:



			Maybe cut down on the amount of matchy matchy and new fashionable gear then you could afford the GG long term!!  Sorry...couldn't resist!! 

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ROFL... sorry, you were joking, right?


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## Moomin1 (25 April 2012)

bananas_22 said:



			ROFL... sorry, you were joking, right? 

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Not really!  

If a horse needs something (then again we don't know CS needs it because we don't even know if there's anything wrong!) then it should have it.  If that means cutting down on luxuries then so be it!  

Anyway, that's my opinion.  Will be quiet now as I am a mere happy hacker!


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## bananas_22 (25 April 2012)

glamourpuss said:



			Also can I also say that I'm pleased that *on the whole* this has been a decent thread to read. Apart from a couple of posts which are obviously trying to get a rise out of PS & NMT  it has been full of interesting advice.
		
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I definitely agree with this.  FWIW, I think that you have done a very good job with CS, PS, and it clearly has been nowhere near plain sailing.  I'd be inclined to think that there may be/may have been a small level of discomfort in the digestive tract which is probably stress-related, originating way back from his race training days and possibly continuing in an increasingly milder sense throughout his life. Potentially breeding and learned-behaviour have then meant that these episodes will always occur, but the fact they are becoming less frequent is more than likely testament to better/more stable management combined with CS maturing.  In this circumstance I think the most sensible thing to do _is_ to experiment with various methods - feed, management, routine, medication, therapies etc and from what I can tell on here this is exactly what you are doing and asking for advice about.


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## bananas_22 (25 April 2012)

Moomin1 said:



			Not really!  

If a horse needs something (then again we don't know CS needs it because we don't even know if there's anything wrong!) then it should have it.  If that means cutting down on luxuries then so be it!  

Anyway, that's my opinion.  Will be quiet now as I am a mere happy hacker! 

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Maybe so...I was referring more to the statement about hating bitchiness in the horsey-world and then the, _IMO_ bitchy comment in the next post -I thought it was great!


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## Lolo (25 April 2012)

black_horse said:



			Indeed, funilly enough as i deal with these drugs on a daily basis, i MIGHT know  a thing or two about them....I was offering advice. TBH i am sick of how much crap is being spouted about me, so why shouldnt i stand up for myself? Its like being stuck in a playschool play yard and fighting over who as the best doll......pathetic.




Exactly what i was thinking, sorry.
		
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You're the only one fighting. Everyone else has played very nicely and been very polite and offered very sensible advice. Equally, you're the only person I've seen who's been rude and bitchy behind others backs. 

FWIW, your horse is displaying quite unusual traits- total meltdowns so bad you're forced to retire, rapid unprovoked reversing, kicking out, etc. Yet everyone is allowed/ has to be nice to you. I've kept quiet because you're a nice person who's had a tough time of it but this is so two-faced it's unreal and now you've randomly deleted me for having a different opinion to you I see there is no reason to maintain this. 

What exactly have they done to you? Go on. Exactly what's wrong. If it's all true, then saying it out loud is fine....


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## Laafet (25 April 2012)

Am not going to get drawn into this, but just wanted to say, he looked lovely in his pre meltdown pics. Maybe it is just a bit early in the season, my friend is having the same problem with her ex-racer, alibeit at a much lower level. He was actually mananging to get placed on his merit not just because there were only 4 or 6 in class by the end of last year, this year back to being a total tw*t again. Had everything checked out and is not in pain, but he is an awkward sod, hopefully he'll be better this weekend. Incidently have you tried someone else riding him in a test? I did this for my friend and it helped her see what I was seeing from the ground. Not that I am really that qualified to comment, just a thought.


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## Moomin1 (25 April 2012)

bananas_22 said:



			Maybe so...I was referring more to the statement about hating bitchiness in the horsey-world and then the, _IMO_ bitchy comment in the next post -I thought it was great! 

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I'm sorry I am not exactly clear as to what is bitchy about making a suggestion someone cuts down on luxuries to pay for veterinary treatment for their horse?  I have seen a lot of posts by PS talking about the latest matchy matchy or gear she has bought. Mere observation that's all.  


I have come across too many people who haven't provided for their horse's wellbeing yet they haven't cut down on things such as drinking/smoking/clothes/computer games etc etc.

Just saying!


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## Jesstickle (25 April 2012)

Good lord. These threads never cease to amaze me. PS, you are one ballsy lady to keep posting in the face of some of this!

I know jack about ulcers and even less about competing at the level PS is but are we really suggesting the horse is somehow abused/mistreated/denied anything in life?  I must be looking at the wrong pictures!

PS- my opinion isn't worth much but if he were mine I'd probably have him scoped. Keep the om-what ever it's called, have him scoped. If he has ulcers you can use it yourself anyway ,if he doesn't just sell it to someone else. I personally don't think you'd struggle to rehome it. Just my thoughts.  ETS: It probably isn't legal to sell it on, but frankly who is going to know. Just don't announce it on here! 

Good luck with him, he's a lovely chap and although I don't know much the early photos you posted look very nice to me


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## NR99 (25 April 2012)

Easy tigers! TS did a fantastic job of bringing the thread back to the point in hand and there have been lots of useful suggestions for the OP to follow up on.


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## Tr0uble (25 April 2012)

black_horse said:



			But, wasn't one of your recent threads about it being "too good to last" and that she had reverted?

Not criticising what you do with your mare...from what I've seen you manage a sensitive mare as well as most would...but just because you've had a breakthrough, doesn't give you a free ticket to be holier than thou...

Clearly, at some point (because I remember a time when you were a big advocate of PS/NMT) there has been a falling out....so maybe the best thing is just to not get involved? You MUST know it will go this way? But feel free to ignore me, only my opinion/observations after all.

Jess...I just skim read your post and thought you meant rehome CS! Not any unwanted Omeprazole! Did a double take!
		
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## mollichop (25 April 2012)

Booboo's, I was wondering that too - PS - do you think it's worth having his eyes investigated?


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## Jesstickle (25 April 2012)

Tr0uble said:



			Jess...I just skim read your post and thought you meant rehome CS! Not any unwanted Omeprazole! Did a double take!
		
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lol  

I would _ happily _ rehome CS. I'm not much for dressage but he'd like to go hunting right PS?    I don't mind rearers. I don't think I could get 1/100th of what PS does out of him but I'm sure I could just gaze at his handsome face over the door and be happy


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## Chloe..x (25 April 2012)

black_horse said:



			I have deleted you, as well as about 40 other people, dont take it too personally.

You honestly think i am the only one talking...really? wow...

I am stepping out now, before TFC makes me take a holiday.... and yes, delicia USED to do that....used to being the operative word before i had a look at what I was doing.
		
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Hang on, didn't you recently do a report about how she reverted back to her old self? And when you say "had a look at what I was doing" wasn't it the criticism that you get from people on here about how she's not ready for a double and should still be in a snaffle regardless of whether it was her that needed the stronger bit or you?


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## Tr0uble (25 April 2012)

Chloe..x said:



			Hang on, didn't you recently do a report about how she reverted back to her old self? And when you say "had a look at what I was doing" wasn't it the criticism that you get from people on here about how she's not ready for a double and should still be in a snaffle regardless of whether it was her that needed the stronger bit or you?
		
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Glad it's not just me who thought that!


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## nikkimariet (25 April 2012)

black_horse said:



			TBH i am sick of how much crap is being spouted about me, so why shouldnt i stand up for myself? Its like being stuck in a playschool play yard and fighting over who as the best doll......pathetic.
		
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black_horse said:



			You honestly think i am the only one talking...really? wow...
		
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Tr0uble said:



			You MUST know it will go this way?
		
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B_H, you're probably not the only one posting status' about this thread, but you're the only one who is getting wound up by the very reaction you set out to cause. You are the epitome of an attention seeker. Pathetic.



black_horse said:



			and yes, delicia USED to do that....used to being the operative word before i had a look at what I was doing.
		
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Tr0uble said:



			But, wasn't one of your recent threads about it being "too good to last" and that she had reverted?
		
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Chloe..x said:



			Hang on, didn't you recently do a report about how she reverted back to her old self? And when you say "had a look at what I was doing" wasn't it the criticism that you get from people on here about how she's not ready for a double and should still be in a snaffle regardless of whether it was her that needed the stronger bit or you?
		
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Nail on head.



jesstickle said:



			I would _ happily _ rehome CS. I'm not much for dressage but he'd like to go hunting right PS?
		
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*gulp* Even reading CS and hunting in the same sentence makes me nervous


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## Jesstickle (25 April 2012)

nikkimariet said:



			*gulp* Even reading CS and hunting in the same sentence makes me nervous 

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What was he like as a racehorse? Perhaps team chasing would be more his bag then  

I jest of course


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## SpottedCat (25 April 2012)

Jesstickle, if you've got some kind of death wish, I'd quite like GBO to go hunting, but I'd like someone else to take him first please.....


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## dafthoss (25 April 2012)

Its ok JT is bionic  well one knee is  J tested it thourghly on a tree . 

Not going to get involved in the argument as my opinion has already been said by several people


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## Tr0uble (25 April 2012)

black_horse said:



			At least to the critism and did something to make it better.

Didnt Albert Einstein say "Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results."

I had the courage to understand some people commenting had a better knowledge then me and took guidence from them. 

As far as i am aware neither yourself nor PS deal with drugs on a daily basis...omeprazole is a drug, a POM PIP drug to be exact. So i revert back to my original statement. Get advice and do tests before feeding said nasty drug to your beautiful horse.

Might i add Nikki, it is you who is sending little spies to view what i write  now that is pathetic
		
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Do you honestly think that you are so saintly because you finally followed some advice? PS HAS asked for advice...and as far as I can see, just by reading, she is pondering her choices and planning to follow several pieces of advice. Just because she has discounted some of YOUR advice, rather barbed advice TBH, doesn't mean she is blindly insisting she knows better than everyone else.

Or am I missing something? I really do try and avoid getting involved in this kind of sniping, but 5h!!t me some of the things that have been said are enough to p!ss off a house brick!


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## Santa_Claus (25 April 2012)

Ok my honest thoughts are that although he may be established at advanced at home from what you tell us he is not getting the scores I would expect from him (harsh judge or not!). I wouldn't be moving up levels BD unless scoring consistently high 60s yes I would school at a higher level at home but not at shows. From your BD record (not hard to work out who you are  ) his ' fairly decent' scores last year were at elementary and 1 or 2 at medium, all at AM and Ad are IMHO distinctly average at best and he is not a horse I would call average!

What would I do I hear you ask (or maybe not!)? I would competitively wise return to elementary and possibly bring his home level down a step or two. It may be easy for him but it will build confidence, get those scores and get those regional qualifications he is capable of rather than skipping up levels and scraping petplan qualifications. You have nothing to prove to anyone and no one (who matters!) will care if you return to elementary which he is still more than eligible for! I personally would be far more impressed to see 70%+ at elementary than 60% at AM! I'm not doubting his ability to do an advanced test I do though doubt even without the 'paddies' that he could do one well aka 70%+ at this moment in time.

IMHO although the more complex movements may occupy his brain more I personally question whether he is mentally and physically ready to perform these movements to the required standard in a test situation. You are currently seemingly happy to settle for 63% that's basically mainly 6's (satisfactory) and the odd 7 (fairly good). You don't seem to me to be the type who would day to day settle for 'satisfactory'. You should be aiming for 8s aka good and settling for a few 6s and 7s but ultimately that 70% marker is and should be your aim as that will be the judges confirming that your work is at the very least fairly good if not good throughout. Yes there are 'harsh' marking judges around but a good test will get good scores and to be honest at AM+ level wise the judges are getting to a standard where they will reward a good test accordingly.

So thats my two penneth feel free to ignore me as ultimately I haven't seen more than photos or the odd video (that are a couple years old) and I don't know you or your horse. I can only judge by the facts given. He is capable of brilliance I just think you need to think about the quality first and foremost.

FWIW Fleur had a meltdown as a youngster. She was doing reasonably well for her age as a 4/5yo including age classes SJing even with very limited outings when she had a meltdown. Complete dollies out of pram refusing to go anywhere type one most conveniently on the first day of an expensive 3 days BSJA show! The reason for her meltdown was purely mental, she had been broken too fast in Holland and although more than capable of the work and being trained correctly once in our hands she was not enjoying herself and downed tools saying very bluntly 'no more' and rearing became a regular hobby for her. What did I do? I took her back to basics and allowed her to enjoy her work again, it took longer than most as I lacked money at the time but she ultimately came right I learnt though that although she was more than capable of the higher work I had to take it that bit slower and every so often take a step back to ensure she enjoyed her work. The un-hackable dangerous horse has even become hackable. (we had a very experienced person who specialises in youngsters/problem horses brand her dangerous  ) Not saying she is in anyway the same but in the same way there are distinct similarities.

In regard to the ulcer possibility, find yourself a kind female vet appropriately sedate him and get him scoped, that would be my plan of action to get a definitive answer without causing too much stress. Ulcers have many many causes, a very simple one being that as he is mostly kept in during the day that the hayledge (which is highly acidic) he is eating is causing high stomach acid. Of course others include as mentioned stress, infection and many other causes although this is all very presumptuous as they have not been confirmed!


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## Jesstickle (25 April 2012)

SpottedCat said:



			Jesstickle, if you've got some kind of death wish, I'd quite like GBO to go hunting, but I'd like someone else to take him first please.....
		
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Umm. As I know for a fact that you ride much better than I, and that you are much braver, I am going to assume there is a very good reason you don't fancy it yourself and regretfully decline  

How is that for diplomatic?  I have heard a rumour that Lolo's Al will hunt anything. Perhaps you should try her


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## Chloe..x (25 April 2012)

black_horse said:



			At least to the critism and did something to make it better.

Didnt Albert Einstein say "Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results."

I had the courage to understand some people commenting had a better knowledge then me and took guidence from them. 

As far as i am aware neither yourself nor PS deal with drugs on a daily basis...omeprazole is a drug, a POM PIP drug to be exact. So i revert back to my original statement. Get advice and do tests before feeding said nasty drug to your beautiful horse.

Might i add Nikki, it is you who is sending little spies to view what i write  now that is pathetic
		
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She does response to the criticism! Why do you think the thread has kept going? Someone suggested the snaffle, and she has justified why she uses the double not because she needs it but because he goes better in it. Again people have said GG, and she's also justified why she can't use it on a long term basis. I don't think PS is stupid enough to just go ahead and feed omeprazole to her horse without doing her research which she has already shown earlier in this topic.

I think you're trying to compare your experience with D to CS when its evidently completely different.


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## Lolo (25 April 2012)

jesstickle said:



			Umm. As I know for a fact that you ride much better than I, and that you are much braver, I am going to assume there is a very good reason you don't fancy it yourself and regretfully decline  

How is that for diplomatic?  I have heard a rumour that Lolo's Al will hunt anything. Perhaps you should try her 

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She's got something lovely to hunt (well, she did last season, and fingers crossed this will continue next!) so willingness may be decreased as cravings have been satisfied


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## Jesstickle (25 April 2012)

Lolo said:



			She's got something lovely to hunt (well, she did last season, and fingers crossed this will continue next!) so willingness may be decreased as cravings have been satisfied 

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O dear. Well I tried  I also have something lovely to hunt (well, it's ugly and a knobber but it goes and it jumps at least) so not much in the way of desperation here either.


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## nikkimariet (25 April 2012)

black_horse said:



			I had the courage to understand some people commenting had a better knowledge then me and took guidence from them. 

As far as i am aware neither yourself nor PS deal with drugs on a daily basis...omeprazole is a drug, a POM PIP drug to be exact. So i revert back to my original statement. Get advice and do tests before feeding said nasty drug to your beautiful horse.

Might i add Nikki, it is you who is sending little spies to view what i write  now that is pathetic
		
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No. You didn't. Someone pointed out your horse was tense and BTV and you kicked up a stink. Then created a post daring people to ride your big bad horse. Then created a further post admitting you were **** scared of it.

You are correct, but PS has done her research into it and there are just as many instances of Omp. proving effective. In the same way that my mum takes amitriptyline for her AS and equates it to a little foil packet of heaven. But it makes me hallucinate, gives me severe stomach pain and does nothing for my AS.

Might I add Rachel, I have sent no one to spy on you. You're the one who can't accept that you're losing an argument you tried so desperately hard to create. 'Use the bricks people throw at you to build a castle.'


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## georgiegirl (25 April 2012)

Yikes its got a bit heated on here hasnt it?!?

First and foremost if he were mine before administering drugs etc I would get him scoped. The cost of scoping in the long term really is negligible and of course it is very important to remember that ALL drugs have side effects of some kind which may of course cause further problems - would be very silly to ahead and end up with a problem you didnt even need to treat in the first place?!

Even if the scope result comes back clear it may well be worth dropping down a level for a show or two and seeing what happens....it may well be its a bit much too soon - he may well be working at that level beautifully at home but it may just be too much for him when he has other pressures eg crowds, excitement, new venue etc. Absolutely nothing wrong with dropping a horse back down for a couple of shows.

We did the young event horse classes with autumn as a 5yo where the jumping was 1.10 courses and then in her 6yo year decided to event her at BE90 level and not move her up. It took the pressure off both of us and its quite interesting to see actually that a few of the horses who competed with us in the 5yo's have since thrown the towel in, been injured or lost confidence competing at a higher level so young.

CS really is fabulous and you have done the most amazing job with him however I dont think it would do any harm to at least take the pressure off him at comps for a while and drop him down a level when competing and see what happens. Hes only 7 and has the most amazing foundations to build on so whats the rush??

Hope you find a solution whatever it may be and look forward to your next report


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## TheoryX1 (25 April 2012)

You know what, I dont normally post on any of your threads as they all seem to degenerate into arguments.  For the life of me I really do not see why you have to be so defensive to other forum users.  You have asked for help on here quite obviously, if you do not wish to hear the opinions of other people, DONT use an internet forum.  You have to just take it on the chin.

I read some of your posts from time to time.  I cannot for the life of me work out why you are so defensive - do you have something to hide or prove?  People dont normally behave like this if they dont.  He is a beautiful horse, you obviously have worked hard, what you spend your cash on is up to you - yes I will poke fun at you because its not my thing (matchy matchy) but whatever, if you read any of my posts, I poke fun at most matchy matchy people, as its not my thing, but I honestly dont give a dam if its your thing, its not hurting me personally, I just choose not to spend my cash that way.

I would add that I mocked myself quite gently in one of your posts a long while ago and you were downright rude to me, which was uncalled for.  You dont know me, and I actually didnt deserve the level of scorn you poured on me because I didnt have your 'lightening quick responses'' and 'level of riding skill'. - your own words  I just chose to ignore it, but you were downright rude and it was not even warranted.

In parting, if you realy cannot take it, then for gods sake dont give it.


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## zoon (25 April 2012)

Black Horse - can I ask what you do for a living?


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## nikkimariet (25 April 2012)

TheoryX1 said:



			You know what, I dont normally post on any of your threads as they all seem to degenerate into arguments.  For the life of me I really do not see why you have to be so defensive to other forum users.  You have asked for help on here quite obviously, if you do not wish to hear the opinions of other people, DONT use an internet forum.  You have to just take it on the chin.

I read some of your posts from time to time.  I cannot for the life of me work out why you are so defensive - do you have something to hide or prove?  People dont normally behave like this if they dont.  He is a beautiful horse, you obviously have worked hard, what you spend your cash on is up to you - yes I will poke fun at you because its not my thing (matchy matchy) but whatever, if you read any of my posts, I poke fun at most matchy matchy people, as its not my thing, but I honestly dont give a dam if its your thing, its not hurting me personally, I just choose not to spend my cash that way.

I would add that I mocked myself quite gently in one of your posts a long while ago and you were downright rude to me, which was uncalled for.  You dont know me, and I actually didnt deserve the level of scorn you poured on me because I didnt have your 'lightening quick responses'' and 'level of riding skill'. - your own words  I just chose to ignore it, but you were downright rude and it was not even warranted.

In parting, if you realy cannot take it, then for gods sake dont give it.
		
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http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/smash-face-on-keyboard-post-results


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## TheoryX1 (25 April 2012)

nikkimariet said:



http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/smash-face-on-keyboard-post-results

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Not my thing really, but might try it one night when I am bored.


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## nikkimariet (25 April 2012)

TheoryX1 said:



			Not my thing really, but might try it one night when I am bored.
		
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Then tonight was clearly the night.


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## kit279 (25 April 2012)

Scopes aren't without risk, folks.  If we consent a human for a scope, it includes the risks of bleeding and perforation and we've got one patient on ITU who had a scope, perforated his oesophagus and then ended up having some fairly major surgical washout of his mediastinum!  For people who asked if we would start a human on omeprazole without knowing what you were dealing with, then the answer is yes absolutely.  Loads of people get put on omeprazole without a scope, it is a relatively safe drug and well tolerated and can be bought over the counter without a prescription.  We wouldn't routinely scope people with acid reflux pain unless there were other symptoms.  That said, I think a scope might help put your mind at rest here TBH.

OP, sounds like he learned from an early age to rear and be difficult.  It is entirely possible that he may have some niggle but it's actually how he deals with it that is peculiar to him.  Some horses are quite stoic and will soldier on, some will down tools and he sounds like a sensitive type with added learned bad behaviour from long before you got hold of him.  I think the key will be to get him out more and try to make him learn that when he is being difficult in a test situation, you don't just retire because of it but that you show him you mean business.  Clearly when you school at home, you mean business and he may sense that you are a bit more inhibited at comps, because of everyone watching - like children who are well behaved at home but muck about in the supermarket when everyone is staring to the horror of their parents!


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## TrakehnerFilly (25 April 2012)

I am more of a lurker but in defence of PS, I have read every post of this thread hoping to learn a thing or two from those more experienced than me, and PS's responses have seemed polite and like she is being respectful and pondering all the possibilities that have been put forward to her. She seems to just be trying to get her head round things and has from my pov has avoided the arguments. If anything it is NMT who has responded in arguments which I would do in her position. She is defending her sister and her sisters beautiful horse. I would be nightmare in defence of my sister and a lot less polite than NMT. She is allowed an opinion like everyone else and can rightly defend her sister and horse knowing more about the situation than those on a forum.

Good luck to PS and CS and to NMT and Fig, you two are two of those I look up to on this forum along with others and it is good to see a warts and all post and the discussion that goes along with it. It is good to learn from when things don't go so well.


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## TheoryX1 (25 April 2012)

Bored, not really.  Why on earth do you think I was bored?  You dont even know me, so cant really decide what makes me bored.

Are you bored?


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## MileAMinute (25 April 2012)

kit279 said:



			Scopes aren't without risk, folks.  If we consent a human for a scope, it includes the risks of bleeding and perforation and we've got one patient on ITU who had a scope, perforated his oesophagus and then ended up having some fairly major surgical washout of his mediastinum!  For people who asked if we would start a human on omeprazole without knowing what you were dealing with, then the answer is yes absolutely.  Loads of people get put on omeprazole without a scope, it is a relatively safe drug and well tolerated and can be bought over the counter without a prescription.  We wouldn't routinely scope people with acid reflux pain unless there were other symptoms.  That said, I think a scope might help put your mind at rest here TBH.
		
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I'd agree to that to an extent - I've had an endoscopy and they aren't nice at all! I'm also on Omeprazole amongst many other things and it doesn't give me any side effects.

However, we can voice our concerns and raise potential issues with our health. Horses cannot so we have to advocate for them. If any horse of mine was presenting with ulcer-like symptoms, or I thought it was strong enough of a possibility to consider buying medication, I'd certainly be looking at scoping as my first port of call.


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## Chloe..x (25 April 2012)

Kit279 states that omeprazole is not prescription only yet B_H said early its a POM. So which is it?


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## diggerbez (25 April 2012)

LADIES!!! (i'm presuming that everyone here is female..given the degeneration and length of the thread...boys would be very bored by now)...can we all please play nicely? 

FWIW i had a dressage lesson last night that was interesting in the light of this thread. my horse (who did a lovely 29 dressage on sunday at his BE) was a complete ratbagface and decided that he couldn't even trot large without coming very short and tight and spooky...then when we moved on to leg yielding it was a lot of feet stamping and tail swishing and bucking...trainer's opinion is that he is just this sort of horse- when he finds something hard the toys come out of the pram and he 'kicks off'...if you keep asking the same question- persistently and quietly- then eventually he gives in....these tantrums happen say 15% of the time where they used to happen 50% of the time. all vet checks etc all fine...he's just 'that way' inclined...so yes to a certain extent it can be improved through training...but he will always have that personality... so possibly this is what is wrong with CS? obviously i am riding at prelim/novice rather than AM/Advanced but essentially its the same thing- he is just inclined to behave in this way for some reason...with my horse he does it when he is bored or when he finds something difficult...with CS it could be any number of things...or it could be ulcers...or it could be he needs to step down a level or whatever...think PS has had lots of good suggestions here that i am sure she will take on board and experiment with at her leisure.... 
good luck OP, hope you get it sorted


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## TrakehnerFilly (25 April 2012)

In response to Chloe you can buy it over the counter so not prescription only


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## kit279 (25 April 2012)

Omeprazole used to be POM, was reclassified a few years ago.

http://www.patient.co.uk/health/Proton-Pump-Inhibitors-(PPIs).htm


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## ofcourseyoucan (25 April 2012)

nice horse, BUT young for the level of work asked of him. turn him out for a few mionths with no work.ie TURN HIM AWAY AND let the horse think. you will be surprised when you pick him up again. he will be sweeter in himself and ready to work!


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## bananas_22 (25 April 2012)

Moomin1 said:



			I'm sorry I am not exactly clear as to what is bitchy about making a suggestion someone cuts down on luxuries to pay for veterinary treatment for their horse?  I have seen a lot of posts by PS talking about the latest matchy matchy or gear she has bought. Mere observation that's all.  


I have come across too many people who haven't provided for their horse's wellbeing yet they haven't cut down on things such as drinking/smoking/clothes/computer games etc etc.

Just saying!
		
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My observation would be that if you _really_ didn't think there was any hint of bitchyness about your comment you possibly wouldn't have put the "sorry couldn't resist!" bit??

As for PS' spending habits, not any of my business as she hasn't asked for advice on this.  I would point out though that she hasn't to my knowledge posted about buying a lot of matchy matchy since she has considered the gastroguard and alternative options...so whether she is replacing spending on one with spending on another is only guesswork on here


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## nikkimariet (25 April 2012)

kit279 said:



			Scopes aren't without risk, folks.  If we consent a human for a scope, it includes the risks of bleeding and perforation and we've got one patient on ITU who had a scope, perforated his oesophagus and then ended up having some fairly major surgical washout of his mediastinum!  For people who asked if we would start a human on omeprazole without knowing what you were dealing with, then the answer is yes absolutely.  Loads of people get put on omeprazole without a scope, it is a relatively safe drug and well tolerated and can be bought over the counter without a prescription.  We wouldn't routinely scope people with acid reflux pain unless there were other symptoms.  That said, I think a scope might help put your mind at rest here TBH.
		
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Very interesting to hear that about Omp.



kit279 said:



			I think the key will be to get him out more and try to make him learn that when he is being difficult in a test situation, you don't just retire because of it but that you show him you mean business.
		
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Quite agree!



TrakehnerFilly said:



			Good luck to PS and CS and to NMT and Fig, you two are two of those I look up to on this forum along with others and it is good to see a warts and all post and the discussion that goes along with it. It is good to learn from when things don't go so well.
		
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Thank you 



TheoryX1 said:



			Bored, not really.  Why on earth do you think I was bored?  You dont even know me, so cant really decide what makes me bored.

Are you bored?
		
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OfZuh4rGaiI



Cobrastyle said:



			I'm also on Omeprazole amongst many other things and it doesn't give me any side effects.
		
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That is really interesting to hear, it's bizarre how one medicine affects people/animals in such different ways 



TrakehnerFilly said:



			In response to Chloe you can buy it over the counter so not prescription only
		
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kit279 said:



			Omeprazole used to be POM, was reclassified a few years ago.

http://www.patient.co.uk/health/Proton-Pump-Inhibitors-(PPIs).htm

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Whoopsiedaisy B_H....


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## Chloe..x (25 April 2012)

black_horse said:



			Oh and NMT, not whoospidaisy, i deal with this medication daily.....they google it and come up with not very good sources.

MIMMS is a guide that all pharmacists adhere too....now back off NMT, you are too big for your boots at times...
		
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So it's not POM then?

ETA... if its POM, why is it freely available to buy over the counter?


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## TheoryX1 (25 April 2012)

Ah thanks NMT.  You are really considerate searching the internet just find me interesting little things to cure my boredom.

Thanks,  you are really kind and how did you know I was his greatest fan?


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## nikkimariet (25 April 2012)

black_horse said:



http://www.mims.co.uk/Drugs/gastrointestinal-tract/peptic-ulcer-z-e-syndrome/omeprazole/

Please read before giving advice -.-
		
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TF said 'you *can* buy over it over the counter so not prescription only'



black_horse said:



			back off NMT, you are too big for your boots at times...
		
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http://knowyourmeme.com/photos/200420-neil-degrasse-tyson-reaction

Also, whoopsiedaisy* ....


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## 1t34 (25 April 2012)

This thread is an illustration of why I don't post on here much and why I had a previous account deleted. I tend to lurk irregularly nowadays just putting up the odd post or two.

It is blindingly obvious that the OP and her sister do not want any constructive advice on how to manage their horses training regimes, preferring to receive advice within the window of what they see as acceptable or to seek out responses that confirm what they have decided their already determined course of action.

It is relatively pointless to post anything that sits outside their parameters of acceptability as it will either be ignored or sometimes met with a defensive response. therefore I would refer all posters who wish to stray outside this to the old adage about teaching pigs to sing..........................................


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## Chloe..x (25 April 2012)

black_horse said:



			Oh and NMT, not whoospidaisy, i deal with this medication daily.....they google it and come up with not very good sources.

MIMMS is a guide that all pharmacists adhere too....now back off NMT, you are too big for your boots at times...
		
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black_horse said:



			It is a POM, simvastatin can be bought at 10mg doseage, as can ranitidine at 150mg. POM status depends on the quantity supplied as well as the strenght. For instance, you can buy up to 100 paracetamol tablets behind the counter (unlikely to be allowed to but in theory), but more then that, you require a prescription.
		
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At the pharmacy I used to work at, you where only allowed to buy two types of paracetamol containing products at the counter. If you required more it was at the pharmacists discretion. 

So its a POM at high doses but freely available otherwise?


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## rhino (25 April 2012)

Why is everyone getting their knickers in a twist over whether Omeprazole is POM for humans or not? Last time I looked, Star was a _horse_. The only licensed compound containing Omeprazole for _horses_ is gastrogard...

And NMT, your last few posts have been deeply immature, I really don't think you are helping your sister's cause by acting the bratty little sister.


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## nikkimariet (25 April 2012)

black_horse said:



			NMT - you see, you cannot teach old dogs new tricks it seems...


Are you enjoying your internet searching? why not google lemon party?
		
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http://knowyourmeme.com/photos/196748-first-world-problems


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## TrakehnerFilly (25 April 2012)

black_horse said:



http://www.mims.co.uk/Drugs/gastrointestinal-tract/peptic-ulcer-z-e-syndrome/omeprazole/

Please read before giving advice -.-
		
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I actually do read before I give advice thankyou very much

http://www.rpharms.com/support-pdfs/otcomeprazoleguid.pdf

Please refer to the above, Omeprazole has been reclassified from prescription only to pharmacy medicine status, and tbh I think my source is a lot more reliable so please refrain from such quick responses in future


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## TheoryX1 (25 April 2012)

1t34 said:



			This thread is an illustration of why I don't post on here much and why I had a previous account deleted. I tend to lurk irregularly nowadays just putting up the odd post or two.

It is blindingly obvious that the OP and her sister do not want any constructive advice on how to manage their horses training regimes, preferring to receive advice within the window of what they see as acceptable or to seek out responses that confirm what they have decided their already determined course of action.

It is relatively pointless to post anything that sits outside their parameters of acceptability as it will either be ignored or sometimes met with a defensive response. therefore I would refer all posters who wish to stray outside this to the old adage about teaching pigs to sing..........................................
		
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Like.  Lots.


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## NR99 (25 April 2012)

TBF PS has been quite quiet and has responded well. NMT on the other hand .........:rollseyes: appears to be waging a war on many. Odd, no?


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## MileAMinute (25 April 2012)

Forget Mafia Wars.....Pharmacy Wars is where it's at!


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## rhino (25 April 2012)

NR99 said:



			TBF PS has been quite quiet and has responded well. NMT on the other hand .........:rollseyes: appears to be waging a war on many. Odd, no?
		
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Odd? No, just the usual...  Don't really expect any different to be honest, which is sad as it takes away from the skill and experience of her big sister.


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## Boysy (25 April 2012)

*sigh* *yawn*

It's the internet ladies, do behave in a courteous manner, you never know who you might sit next to on the bus/train/waiting room etc etc.......


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## elliefiz (25 April 2012)

Jeez I saw this post when it first went up and knew it would degenerate into a petty squabble. As a long time lurker I love to look at 
PS's photo posts, her horse is seriously stunning yet there always seems to be a row and NMT does her best Rottweiler impression snapping at anyone who doesnt want to say how pretty the horse is and how nice his matchy matchy tack is. Usually the arguments are abit of good entertainment but this thread has gotten so b#tchy it's unpleasant to read. Maybe some people need to step away from the keyboard and remember this is just a forum and not something to raise their stress levels over.


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## charlie76 (25 April 2012)

Ho hum. Usual riot following one of these threads! 
I will agree that I would not treat for ulcers without a scope. Ours had ulcers, was scoped and from the scope the level of gastroguard was calculated.  There are also different types of ulcers which require different treatments.
The insurance will pay for a scope and the treatment so surely there is no harm in going the correct route.
If the scope comes back clear then ypy will no be wasting time pumping drugs into a horse which doesnt need it and you can use the time saved looking into the reasons for his behaviour.
As I stated before, I would drop him back a few levels both at home and in competition,  he doesn't need to do all the psg movements every time he is schooled or competed,  he wont forget what he has learnt.
go back, gain his confidence,  move forward slowly.


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## 4faults (25 April 2012)

Oh for goodness sake people can this not stop yet? These threads become out of control sometimes.

Fwiw PS has been nothing but polite and considerate on this thread, she has considered opinions and provided most people with answers. NMT is reacting to protect her sister which I think is what the majority of posters on here would do for their siblings.

Were all horsey people, were all passionate about these animals and that passion sometimes comes across a little too strongly. Different opinions are great and make for very interesting discussions and debates but there is such a thing as going to far.

I think we can all agree CS looks in great health and it's obvious PS loves him. PS I would be in the camp of he's a young tricky horse and it's early in the season, see how he gets on with a step down for a few shows to build some confidence or get him out a few more times and see how he goes. If it continues to happen there are some excellent suggestions here to explore. He's looking great and I'm very envious of how you ride


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## MileAMinute (25 April 2012)

black_horse said:



			Cobra style - maybe you should work in a pharmacy  very interesting environment 

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I did when I was younger! Only as a sales assistant on a Saturday morning but certainly learnt a lot. Also learnt a lot from being my own portable pharmacy, on too many drugs to mention  Currently a student nurse, I find medicine so fascinating!


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## MileAMinute (25 April 2012)

black_horse said:



			Facinating but shouldnt be taken lightly, particularly as the drung in question can increase the liver enzymes...
		
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I shall be sure to pick your brains in future if I get stuck on any medicine-based assignments, you seem very knowledgeable!


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## MileAMinute (25 April 2012)

black_horse said:



			Funny that, considering i work within DDS/MDS pharmacy 

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Even better!


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## zoon (25 April 2012)

So you're a dispenser black horse? In which case you're aware most drugs have the possibility of increasing liver enzymes since the liver is where most are metabolised! Omeprazole is classified as a P as Zanprol - the OTC brand which is 10mg.  All other forms are classified as POM.  It is a safe an effective medication recommended by NICE as first line treatment for GORD and certainly more effective than ranitidine for such.  If you are a registered technician I would recommend you complete a CPD cycle on the topic as your knowledge isn't entirely accurate


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## TarrSteps (25 April 2012)

Tr0uble said:



			but 5h!!t me some of the things that have been said are enough to p!ss off a house brick!
		
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Adding this to my list of quotes, too!  It's been a good week for pithy repartee.


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## TarrSteps (25 April 2012)

1t34 said:



			therefore I would refer all posters who wish to stray outside this to the old adage about teaching pigs to sing..........................................
		
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Don't drag me into this mess!


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## Puppy (25 April 2012)

black_horse said:



			Oh and NMT, not whoospidaisy, i deal with this medication daily.....they google it and come up with not very good sources.

MIMMS is a guide that all pharmacists adhere too....now back off NMT, you are too big for your boots at times...
		
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Erm, it's nothing to do with google. Kit is a qualified doctor


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## Llanali (25 April 2012)

Wow. I hope some of you lot have intentional damage to double glazing in your house insurance cover..... Anyone want to heave an atlas stone?? 

I do think a step back might be positive, but NOT because I think the horse looks over pressured. More because I think for even the most seasoned competitor, going into the ring knowing it is easy, that you have plenty of time and tricks to sort things as they arise, is always of such a benefit now and again. 
I would drop back, so that as someone above said, in a schooling session you can abort/ prepare more etc and nothing comes quite so thick and fast. I'm not a dressage person so I wouldn't comment on what level I would drop back to as I wouldn't know!!! But as a jumper, I'd drop 10-20cm in height as a refresher or sweetener. Mainly because I enjoy a day out where you know in theory it's jump able eyes closed! 

Best of luck. I know nothing of those drugs, I'm an corticosteroid and analgesic specialist as a day job and know full well not to steer off my knowledge 'patch'  

Fascinating thoughts as ever by Tarrsteps, and I think amage ? Forgive me, whoever it was who also commented on some just being sods and bloodline related temperament issues, for want of a better Phrase! I love the TS wisdom of behaviours as expressions not just reaction.


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## amage (26 April 2012)

Wow what a ridiculous load of waffle this turned into and it sadly takes away from some excellent info and advice contained within this thread. NMT fair play...I don't know I could have held my patience for so long defending a sibling. BH is there anyone you don't pick a fight with?! 
PS only other advice I can offer is call your next horse "Easy Target"...sometimes it seems that is what you are on this forum! I still stand by my early thought of perhaps get him out competing more at whatever level YOU feel is appropriate. It only occurred to me after that what can be far more commonly noted in tbs is whether they run better "fresh" or need prep runs. The prep run horses will usually have a cycle of 2-3 runs in a short space of time (assuming appropriate recovery between races before any anti racing people want to really jump on that point) and maybe your fella would suit that system of steam up prep to maintain for a fixed period rather than steam up for each outing.


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## Llanali (26 April 2012)

Now the above is a fascinating point.... I know several people have mentioned to taking him out more but I had not made the connection o horses that run fresh or not.....


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## TarrSteps (26 April 2012)

Works that way very much with comp horses, too - some need lots of prep, some are better with almost none, some need easy confidence runs, others need a wake up call before something important. 

It's one of those conflicts that can arise in Team selection and training - not every horse is going to need the same prep and this can be tricky within a group all targeting the same comp.  Good pros spend quite a bit of time worrying about such management aspects and working out the optimum for a horse before it really matters.


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## nikkimariet (26 April 2012)

Santa_Claus said:



			Yes there are 'harsh' marking judges around but a good test will get good scores and to be honest at AM+ level wise the judges are getting to a standard where they will reward a good test accordingly.
		
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At any level there are harsh judges and generous judges?



elliefiz said:



			NMT does her best Rottweiler impression snapping at anyone who doesnt want to say how pretty the horse is and how nice his matchy matchy tack is.
		
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The only people to mention matchy are: TheoryX1, Moomin1 and yourself...



4faults said:



			Fwiw PS has been nothing but polite and considerate on this thread, she has considered opinions and provided most people with answers.
		
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Yep. There's been some really great answers and very insightful thoughts along the way!



Puppy said:



			Erm, it's nothing to do with google. Kit is a qualified doctor 

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Omg lol.



amage said:



			Wow what a ridiculous load of waffle this turned into and it sadly takes away from some excellent info and advice contained within this thread. NMT fair play...I don't know I could have held my patience for so long defending a sibling. BH is there anyone you don't pick a fight with?! 
PS only other advice I can offer is call your next horse "Easy Target"...sometimes it seems that is what you are on this forum! I still stand by my early thought of perhaps get him out competing more at whatever level YOU feel is appropriate. It only occurred to me after that what can be far more commonly noted in tbs is whether they run better "fresh" or need prep runs. The prep run horses will usually have a cycle of 2-3 runs in a short space of time (assuming appropriate recovery between races before any anti racing people want to really jump on that point) and maybe your fella would suit that system of steam up prep to maintain for a fixed period rather than steam up for each outing.
		
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Yes, sadly there's a number of posts that have no value - including a number of mine, but they're all posted in humor, whereas I fear a few members are taking this rather more seriously 

Interesting note about the cycle/runs - really do learn something new every day! 



TarrSteps said:



			Works that way very much with comp horses, too - some need lots of prep, some are better with almost none, some need easy confidence runs, others need a wake up call before something important.
		
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Makes sense to me - I think Fig will definitely be one that needs confidence runs, he's quite the worrier


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## Santa_Claus (26 April 2012)

Yes there are harsh judges at every level BUT when a horse is scoring consistent low 60s or even high 50s with the odd 65% score to me that says its a 60% horse which gets the odd higher mark from a generous judge!!

CS though IS NOT a 60% horse which I'm sure you will agree and which he has proved but not at his current level of competition. His 65% + scores are basically all at E and one or two at M. I did quickly look at how the judges scored other competitors on the same day and although yes I didn't see the tests others were getting 65%+ and when looking at their records that was in line with their overall records. 

What I'm trying to say is although he is obviously capable of performing the higher movements he is doing so for 6s not 8s. I personally don't understand while eligible for elementary and potentially having a strong chance of qualifying for nationals this is instead bypassed and by preference competing at AM where struggling to scrape a pet plan qualification. PS never seems to me to settle for second best hence I get so confused she chooses mediocre at a high level rather than special at a lower level!

To be honest I'm amused you chose that bit to quote from my original post but then it's was always one for PS to reply to not you, nothing personal but I am referring more to PS's aims within my questions which she is the only one to know truly!

I think it's admirable that you defend your sister but as a kind suggestion the responses made in humour add some suitable smilies as without they do read  sarcastically and even rude which you say is not your desire but that is how they read hence people have been snapping back!

 I find it sad these posts always degenerate as some excellent advice is normally also given but gets somewhat lost!


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## nikkimariet (26 April 2012)

Santa_Claus said:



			Yes there are harsh judges at every level BUT when a horse is scoring consistent low 60s or even high 50s with the odd 65% score to me that says its a 60% horse which gets the odd higher mark from a generous judge!!

CS though IS NOT a 60% horse which I'm sure you will agree and which he has proved but not at his current level of competition. His 65% + scores are basically all at E and one or two at M. I did quickly look at how the judges scored other competitors on the same day and although yes I didn't see the tests others were getting 65%+ and when looking at their records that was in line with their overall records. 

What I'm trying to say is although he is obviously capable of performing the higher movements he is doing so for 6s not 8s. I personally don't understand while eligible for elementary and potentially having a strong chance of qualifying for nationals this is instead bypassed and by preference competing at AM where struggling to scrape a pet plan qualification. PS never seems to me to settle for second best hence I get so confused she chooses mediocre at a high level rather than special at a lower level!

To be honest I'm amused you chose that bit to quote from my original post but then it's was always one for PS to reply to not you, nothing personal but I am referring more to PS's aims within my questions which she is the only one to know truly!

I think it's admirable that you defend your sister but as a kind suggestion the responses made in humour add some suitable smilies as without they do read  sarcastically and even rude which you say is not your desire but that is how they read hence people have been snapping back!

 I find it sad these posts always degenerate as some excellent advice is normally also given but gets somewhat lost!
		
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No - I was just merely querying your post as IMHO there are harsh and generous judges at all levels. Sorry they read that way, they're not meant to! But fwiw, on a thread like this, if you add a  after something, it smacks of sarcasm, even if it's not meant to - hence no smilies.

ETS - Thanks for clarifying what you meant, I understand your OP better now!


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## Lady La La (26 April 2012)

Chloe..x said:



			Kit279 states that omeprazole is not prescription only yet B_H said early its a POM. So which is it?
		
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Well given that one person is a qualified doctor and the other nothing of the sort, I'd be inclined to say it probably isn't 



black_horse said:



			Might i add, its because of your attitude that people dislike all these types of threads. By all means defend your sister, but tbh, you go too far and make a mockery of it all.
		
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Well yes, but then your attitude is just the same 



rhino said:



			Odd? No, just the usual...  Don't really expect any different to be honest, which is sad as it takes away from the skill and experience of her big sister.
		
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Agreed. PS has handled this well and seems to have taken on board most of the advice offered. She's taken time to respond to the majority of the suggestions given, even if she wont be following said advice up. 

FWIW, This post strikes me as very well thought out and helpful. It is advice that I would follow if I were in the shoes of PS:



Santa_Claus said:



			Ok my honest thoughts are that although he may be established at advanced at home from what you tell us he is not getting the scores I would expect from him (harsh judge or not!). I wouldn't be moving up levels BD unless scoring consistently high 60s yes I would school at a higher level at home but not at shows. From your BD record (not hard to work out who you are  ) his ' fairly decent' scores last year were at elementary and 1 or 2 at medium, all at AM and Ad are IMHO distinctly average at best and he is not a horse I would call average!

What would I do I hear you ask (or maybe not!)? I would competitively wise return to elementary and possibly bring his home level down a step or two. It may be easy for him but it will build confidence, get those scores and get those regional qualifications he is capable of rather than skipping up levels and scraping petplan qualifications. You have nothing to prove to anyone and no one (who matters!) will care if you return to elementary which he is still more than eligible for! I personally would be far more impressed to see 70%+ at elementary than 60% at AM! I'm not doubting his ability to do an advanced test I do though doubt even without the 'paddies' that he could do one well aka 70%+ at this moment in time.

IMHO although the more complex movements may occupy his brain more I personally question whether he is mentally and physically ready to perform these movements to the required standard in a test situation. You are currently seemingly happy to settle for 63% that's basically mainly 6's (satisfactory) and the odd 7 (fairly good). You don't seem to me to be the type who would day to day settle for 'satisfactory'. You should be aiming for 8s aka good and settling for a few 6s and 7s but ultimately that 70% marker is and should be your aim as that will be the judges confirming that your work is at the very least fairly good if not good throughout. Yes there are 'harsh' marking judges around but a good test will get good scores and to be honest at AM+ level wise the judges are getting to a standard where they will reward a good test accordingly.

So thats my two penneth feel free to ignore me as ultimately I haven't seen more than photos or the odd video (that are a couple years old) and I don't know you or your horse. I can only judge by the facts given. He is capable of brilliance I just think you need to think about the quality first and foremost.

FWIW Fleur had a meltdown as a youngster. She was doing reasonably well for her age as a 4/5yo including age classes SJing even with very limited outings when she had a meltdown. Complete dollies out of pram refusing to go anywhere type one most conveniently on the first day of an expensive 3 days BSJA show! The reason for her meltdown was purely mental, she had been broken too fast in Holland and although more than capable of the work and being trained correctly once in our hands she was not enjoying herself and downed tools saying very bluntly 'no more' and rearing became a regular hobby for her. What did I do? I took her back to basics and allowed her to enjoy her work again, it took longer than most as I lacked money at the time but she ultimately came right I learnt though that although she was more than capable of the higher work I had to take it that bit slower and every so often take a step back to ensure she enjoyed her work. The un-hackable dangerous horse has even become hackable. (we had a very experienced person who specialises in youngsters/problem horses brand her dangerous  ) Not saying she is in anyway the same but in the same way there are distinct similarities.

In regard to the ulcer possibility, find yourself a kind female vet appropriately sedate him and get him scoped, that would be my plan of action to get a definitive answer without causing too much stress. Ulcers have many many causes, a very simple one being that as he is mostly kept in during the day that the hayledge (which is highly acidic) he is eating is causing high stomach acid. Of course others include as mentioned stress, infection and many other causes although this is all very presumptuous as they have not been confirmed!
		
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Sadly I'm not in the shoes of PS and almost certainly couldn't ride even one side of her horse, but anyway, I'm in agreement with the above. 
*Disclaimer, that was a non sarcastic smiley*


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## Jesstickle (26 April 2012)

Chloe..x said:



			Kit279 states that omeprazole is not prescription only yet B_H said early its a POM. So which is it?
		
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Well, I'm afraid I know who I'd believe on this one. I can check with the pharmacists I know (ETS they may not know of course as one works the orthopaedics ward and the other the renal ward but hey) but I doubt it is required. If Kit says it isn't a POM then I would wager that it isnt 

And FWIW, plenty of drugs which are unlicensed for horses are prescribed by vets. ACP and Pergolide were two very well known ones (which have now changed of  course) but if your horse gets an eye infection you will be prescribed human eyedrops and likewise if your horse needs antihistamine. I still give ACP tabs sometimes (have 'em for the dog). Does this make me irresponsible and morally bereft?


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## ester (26 April 2012)

I thought the cascade can only be used if there isn't an existing licenced product though, which isn't the case in this instance (and hence why horses diagnosed with cushings in days gone by can still be prescribed pergolide but new diagnoses have to use prascend). 

Whether omeprazole is POM or not for humans really is a bit by the by though when CS is a horse


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## caterpillar (26 April 2012)

NR99 said:



			TBF PS has been quite quiet and has responded well. NMT on the other hand .........:rollseyes: appears to be waging a war on many. Odd, no?
		
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rhino said:



			Odd? No, just the usual...  Don't really expect any different to be honest, which is sad as it takes away from the skill and experience of her big sister.
		
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Exactly. PS has replied well taking on board people's suggestions. Her sister however has taken the thread on a different tangent and has been bitchy to many people, she must be very bored! 

PS, shame this has been taken off topic.


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## Jesstickle (26 April 2012)

ester said:



			I thought the cascade can only be used if there isn't an existing licenced product though, which isn't the case in this instance (and hence why horses diagnosed with cushings in days gone by can still be prescribed pergolide but new diagnoses have to use prascend). 

Whether omeprazole is POM or not for humans really is a bit by the by though when CS is a horse  

Click to expand...

yes definitely. But that doesn't make it unsafe to use the old one, just naughty! There seems to be the implication that using the version which isn't licensed for horses is somehow more dangerous which I found confusing when it is the same active substance and therefore, essentially, the same thing? 

ETS: no I don't find it confusing. That is overly polite. I find it silly


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (26 April 2012)

blimey oh blinking riley!

what a keruffle, its taken me half an hour to catch up on the bandwagon...............

FWIW theres a huge amount of not reading and assuming on this thread, the horse is NOT stabled all day, is NOT schooling all the PSG moves every day and CAN NOT be turned away and let down completely. 

Ive already said i wont be drawn in to the legality of the omeprazole but there, ive said it again, feel free to continue to squabble but it wont make a blind bit of difference.

I also have not dismissed ALL the advise, or said anyone is 100% wrong, so the posts implying that are just rubbish really, just an excuse to have a go, and in no way helpful..........I asked for advise, got it, and am trying some of it already, thinking about some more of it. i dont think i HAVE to try/take all of it unless ive missed a new forum rule................

even if i never bought matchy again, and never ate, i would still not be able to afford GG, do you have any idea how much a month supply is?! Interesting that SC's horse doesnt need it full time, so something to consider for sure, but full time GG is beyond 99% of peoples pockets and i am included in that.

I did admit maybe ordering the omeprazole was hasty, but its en route now so worth trying anyway. I have also said ive spoken to vet (who said they will get him in to scope if the omeprazole makes no diff, to see if he needs antibiotics).

someone suggested eyes-he's having his eyes checked by vet friend on fri, thanks, good suggestion 

I played with a few things last night, gave him a massgae with the hand held unit and played with curb and poll pads too.......swapped from padded leather to mattes dead sheep poll pad, which also had the effect of snugging the snaffle up half a hole and made the curb chain just half a link tighter too, and he felt very happy and settled. Whether that means anything, well it too early to tell as he is too inconsistant to make assumptions yet, but will keep same tack over weekend and see.

I simply cannot try everything all at once, so some of you may have to be a little bit more patient and wait for me to report back on your particular advice  but i will try and update on it as much as i can.

I think NMT knew i would find her links funny (same genes, same sense of humour.............)and you have to admit they are no more off topic than some of the rather bizarre replies (TheoryX what ARE you going on about??????????!!!!!!!!)...................she's sticking up for her sister and i would do the same, with just as much force. I guess it easier to shrug it off when its YOU, but when its family, you want to defend them.............if the boot was on the other foot i would defend her to the end, and as someone else has said, i actually think she's done well to keep it this light hearted.

BH-i think it would be best if you just left this thread, ive seen the FB (small world) and the almost frantic, gleeful, spite ,is a bit scary TBH. No logic and no help. D has NOT had some kind of miracle turn around, you posted only recently about her reverting to her old behavior, so im sorry you are not some kind of miraculous horse whisperer.

Whilst dropping down a level might make him less likely to let rip, short term, he is very good at making the comfort zone smaller and smaller and all that would happen would be an explosion the first time i asked for HP/a change/etc in the ring again-we have tried this at home, twice, with the same result. Nicey nicey for weeks when the work is easier, but the minute you up it ,a total "F you". And whilst you could read that as a totally brain fried horse, if you saw it in the flesh, as a few people on here have, you would see it for what it is-a naturally dominant horse trying to take over. Im actually genuinely suprised he did stand up in the first test as he hasnt done that for a long long time, so again-have i made a mountain out of a molehill here, maybe it was a blip?
He's always been inclinded to down tools if you have to stop unexpectedly so the fact he dropped behind me in the second test doesnt really suprise me.


I do actually wonder if stopping competing over winter is wrong and does me/him no favours. I think it takes him longer than my previous horse to peak, and that he prefers to just bubble along with continued consistancy, no peaks or troughs, if that makes sense?


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## bananas_22 (26 April 2012)

Bravo PS for such a dignified post after all the goings on.  Good luck with all the experiments and please do update us on progress.  CS is such an interesting case it will be fascinating to see which methods have an impact (positive or negative) and will no doubt prove very useful to many people in the future.  I really hope that you continue to make good progress with him and you will share it with us on HHO.


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## Ilovefoals (26 April 2012)

I have no useful suggestions at all really but just wanted to tell a wee story 

My old instructors daughter has a very nice, talented horse who could actually be Stars twin in looks as well as behaviour.  He was working at the same level, at the same age and behaved in the same way. He was also a bit of a "lazy toad" in general but would suddenly go up in the middle of a half pass or working piri etc, then be back to normal within 5 mins.

Anyway, she moved to California to work for a top rider and took him with her. His behaviour carried on the same, she put it down to him just being him. Kind of got used to it etc.  Then last year, (she's owned him at least 7yrs by now), he rolled in the field and was seen to kind of become stuck on his side.  When he finally got up, he was holding his head and neck in a strange way and was obviously in a lot of pain so he was rushed to the vet for a scan.  What came back was so interesting.  The roll had caused a fractured disc at the base of his neck but what they also found was a very old fracture right up at his poll.  It had healed obviously without intervention and was squeezing his nerve, probably causing the rearing and freak outs he'd been having for years.  They operated I believe and he's now competing GP a much happier horse.  It was totally random and something his owner would never have thought to have looked for. So in a way, that roll in the field did him a massive favour.  

That's probably of no help what so ever but just thought it really interesting!


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## Amymay (26 April 2012)

but full time GG is beyond 99% of peoples pockets and i am included in that.
		
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But can be claimed on your insurance for 12 months.......


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## SpottedCat (26 April 2012)

The consistency issue is certainly one to consider - it may also not be of any relevance, but my chap is infinitely better if run several times in quick succession then given a break, and takes a good long time to settle to his work on the flat after his end of season holiday. He spent a week convincing chatter1 he'd never been taught to go on the bit  

I played about with this a lot when he was CS age - I did things like take him out three weeks in a row and see how he was, take him to 3 day shows, do things on a more regular schedule etc. He is always better if you do things over a short space of time, then give him a break from competing, then do a few weeks again. Maybe with the digestive thing he gets into a groove as it were, maybe I get my eye in more, who knows! 

There's no way I could afford GG full time, the way I described managing him came direct from the vet who did a lot of the clinical trials work in the USA and has had input into team GB horses (fwiw team GB have a supply of GG that gets handed out to team horses for big important competitions!). 

If you want the name of the vet so your vet could have a chat with him then I'll happily pass it on. It might throw up some new approaches?


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## SpottedCat (26 April 2012)

Amymay - there is no way anyone has enough insurance cover to claim GG for 12 months. I ended up spending my full 5k allowance and putting a grand of my own money into getting the horse right. It took over a year to get him totally sorted, totally wrecked my confidence in the process, and was an utter nightmare. 

You'd get less than 25 weeks of GG out of 5k vets fees, and thats not including any scoping etc. scoping is pennies in comparison to GG. Fwiw I was told the risks in scoping horses are much less than in humans. You can scope a horse for less than a weeks GG costs!


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## Lady La La (26 April 2012)

SpottedCat said:



			Amymay - there is no way anyone has enough insurance cover to claim GG for 12 months. I ended up spending my full 5k allowance and putting a grand of my own money into getting the horse right. It took over a year to get him totally sorted, totally wrecked my confidence in the process, and was an utter nightmare. 

You'd get less than 25 weeks of GG out of 5k vets fees, and thats not including any scoping etc. scoping is pennies in comparison to GG. Fwiw I was told the risks in scoping horses are much less than in humans. You can scope a horse for less than a weeks GG costs!
		
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Excuse my ignorance, but how much *IS* GG? It's not something I've had any experience in, and whilst I knew it was expensive, it's sounding as though the price is horrific!


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## Ilovefoals (26 April 2012)

I think it's at least £300 a week.


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (26 April 2012)

Thanks SC-very kind of you 

vet said to go ahead and try the omeprazole, if no joy, then scope, so if it comes to that i will pm you for more details..............i guess if the omeprazole works, i could manage him in the same way on that, as you do the GG?

have had 4 pm's from people using omeprazole with sucess so do think its worth a shot as a viable alternative.


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## SpottedCat (26 April 2012)

Last time I bought any (last October) it was about £35 a tube. On full dose to cure ulcers you give a tube a day, making it about £250 a week. On maintenance dose (eg for stressful situations) you use quarter of a tube a day so about £70 a week. It is horrific and the sooner the patent runs out and generics hit the market place the better!


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## Amymay (26 April 2012)

SpottedCat said:



			Amymay - there is no way anyone has enough insurance cover to claim GG for 12 months. I ended up spending my full 5k allowance and putting a grand of my own money into getting the horse right. It took over a year to get him totally sorted, totally wrecked my confidence in the process, and was an utter nightmare.
		
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Apols, maths was never my strong point.


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## samsbilly (26 April 2012)

Patent runs out April 2015.


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## SpottedCat (26 April 2012)

PS - yep, no reason not to use the omaprazole in the same way if it works is there? I'd considered it myself as its so much cheaper, but have advanced ulcer paranoia and would never forgive myself if I did and it didn't work as well as GG and the ulcers came back. 

If you do end up down the antibiotic route then do PM me - it is the most hellish experience and I might be able to make it a little better?


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (26 April 2012)

i will do, thank you very much


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## SusieT (26 April 2012)

omeprazole doesn't work the same way... if you're giong t trial anything, try the GG then at least you know if the fully functioning medicine works and can see if the crappy medicine has the same effect. Or scope him, then you know what you're dealing with (and I'm sure a few less luxury numnahs etc. would help with the cost of the scope!)


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## Jesstickle (26 April 2012)

SusieT said:



			omeprazole doesn't work the same way... if you're giong t trial anything, try the GG then at least you know if the fully functioning medicine works and can see if the crappy medicine has the same effect. Or scope him, then you know what you're dealing with (and I'm sure a few less luxury numnahs etc. would help with the cost of the scope!)
		
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Can someone please explain why it doesn't?

Is it just the way it is presented/availability?

ETS: Sorry PS, it's off topic. I am just curious as a scientist what makes gastrogard so special. What does the patent actually cover as clearly omeprazole is off patent now so it isn't that active substance, must be something else?


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## ester (26 April 2012)

omeprazole is still on patent in the UK until 2015 but is off patent in the US so it is the active substance that it is covering. 

I found a really interesting list comparisons yesterday but can't locate it today!

sorry I'm back, I *think* ie don't quote   essentially omeprazole is rather susceptible to being destroyed by the acid, so it needs some protective carrier agents. In addition compounded omeprazole (which I take to be the powdered version) might not be very shelf stable or bioavailable.


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## Jesstickle (26 April 2012)

ester said:



			omeprazole is still on patent in the UK until 2015 but is off patent in the US so it is the active substance that it is covering. 

I found a really interesting list comparisons yesterday but can't locate it today!
		
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Ah, I see! Do you know (just cos I am a pharma geek) who owns the patent? I will have a look on t'internet but am not the best with google and unless I phone the patent lawyer (might be considered a bit of a waste of company time? ) I probably won't be able to find out!!


ETS: never mind it's an AZ patent  Armed with that I am off to investigate.


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## ester (26 April 2012)

Merial


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## TarrSteps (26 April 2012)

Someone more knowledgeable than me will no doubt explain correctly, but my understanding is it has something to do with availability/targeting, specifically how the drug is encapsulated.  

The other issue, for some vets, with all feed through products is reliability.  With a tube of something, you're pretty sure it all gets where it's supposed to go, if done properly, but it's not always so cut and dried in food.  Also, is there not an issue with when it's supposed to be taken to get optimal results?  My OH takes a product which I understand to be in the same class and instructions clearly state not to chew it and not with food - both of which are tricky when you're hiding it in food! 

Of course, this doesn't mean the drug won't work, it just means you're not getting optimal effects, which is why, when medicating is used as a diagnostic (which, as I said, is very common in some areas) vets prefer the paste.

Now, that said, drug companies, especially in the US, are fearsome animals so maybe it's all just in the spin!

I think Merial owns the patent but don't quote me.    Oh apparently ^ I'm right!

Oh, I see Merial now helpfully produces a lesser strength, non-prescription paste product for maintenance as well.  Of course they do.


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## Jesstickle (26 April 2012)

ester said:



			sorry I'm back, I *think* ie don't quote   essentially omeprazole is rather susceptible to being destroyed by the acid, so it needs some protective carrier agents. In addition compounded omeprazole (which I take to be the powdered version) might not be very shelf stable or bioavailable.
		
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I read a couple of papers yesterday (yes, I really am that much of a geek  ) that seemed to imply the same re stability and the need to coat.  It seems to me that the generics in the states are all coated in a similar fashion to the patented drug (prilosec in humans) and a lot of the patent litigation that has gone on around the drug involve this coating. 

People who buy omeprazole, are they actually just buying the drug substance? I had no idea you could do that!! America is a weird place!  I assumed people were just buying the generic drug product (ie capsules for humans) to use here.

TS: yes, your right. It does imply it should be taken on an empty stomach 

All very interesting if you're as sad and tragic as I am!

1
ETS: Merial hold patent but AZ the trademark it would seem!


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## SpottedCat (26 April 2012)

And that lesser strength paste equates to exactly one quarter of a tube of GG and is an over the counter medicine in the US. Isn't that a coincidence?!


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## ester (26 April 2012)

for some reason I had never realised that merial was AZ until yesterday! 

I prob am as sad and tragic as you  and anything that is more interesting than writing up


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## Ilovefoals (26 April 2012)

As I said way, way back. It's a waste of money feeding it in granule form. I bought it off an American website not really thinking about what I was doing.  Read instructions when it arrived to add it to the feed and thought, hmmm. That aint gonna work! Half was spat out, kicked over etc and since it's supposed to be given on an empty stomach, probably wouldn't have worked even if she'd eaten it all. Biggest waste of £150 ever


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## noodle_ (26 April 2012)

SusieT said:



			omeprazole doesn't work the same way... if you're giong t trial anything, try the GG then at least you know if the fully functioning medicine works and can see if the crappy medicine has the same effect. Or scope him, then you know what you're dealing with (and I'm sure a few less luxury numnahs etc. would help with the cost of the scope!)
		
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Gastrogard IS omeprazole...

Mine is on Gastrogard (will be 6 weeks when done)  and will be on Omeprazole in 3 weeks....


i cannot afford GG forever....she  needs 1/4 a tube a day, however Ome, is 1 sachet a day



I am scoping in 3 weeks (6 weeks on GG)  then putting her on a month of Omeprazole... re-scoping....


So i will put my horses reults forward if anyones interested to see the results of bothe GG and omeprazole


GG does work as she improved significantly... if for any reason Ome dosent work (should do... my vet confirmed it)! then i am trialing an error with other stuff.....


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## dafthoss (26 April 2012)

Loving that this post has got back to something intresting rather than a bitching session! 

Very intresting about the GG and Omeprazol will be intrested to see what comes on the market once the patent runs out. Noodle would you mind doing a post about the results when you have them?


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## ellie_e (26 April 2012)

Haven&#8217;t read the whole thread but :O!!!! PS I had my Sj'r scoped around 4wks ago as he was very stressy/naughty at shows and except it being a training issue (ive only had him 12months and hes improving day by day) I thought of ulcers, hes worse at certain shows and is normally fine if we do some dressage. Scope came back clear I really hoped it would show something as would be an answer but in my heart I knew he was fine, looks fantastic, eats well,etc etc.It cost £192 in total for bloods too, but well worth it for my peice of mind, I dont know alot about the drug you have ordered but I would say its worth a try, when you have a difficult horse ANYTHING is worth a try!! If you see improvement then get him scoped.  I'm also trying a new calmer for Equifeast, its Cool calm and collected but WITHOUT magnesium, and 10days in, I think its working.  Its not available online yet but may be worth speaking to Malcolm or Marcus. 
R.e the ring pressure.... Is he naughty at certain places? Mine will be awesome one day and horrid the next, just depends on what horse you bring out of the box, CS is a beautiful horse and very talented, to the person who said about hes a thoroughbred just bred for racing, I disagree! He would not be where he is at today if he was just a racehorse!! Hes talented just because he doesn&#8217;t have a red kwpn passport personally I couldn&#8217;t tell the difference between him and mine(who is a wb!!)
Good luck PS i really hope you find an answer PM me if you would like any more info on the calmer


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## Tempi (26 April 2012)

Ilovefoals said:



			As I said way, way back. It's a waste of money feeding it in granule form. I bought it off an American website not really thinking about what I was doing.  Read instructions when it arrived to add it to the feed and thought, hmmm. That aint gonna work! Half was spat out, kicked over etc and since it's supposed to be given on an empty stomach, probably wouldn't have worked even if she'd eaten it all. Biggest waste of £150 ever 

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I dont think you can really say that, obviously it didnt work for your horse, but doesnt mean it wont work for others.

I bought Omeprazole from the US to treat my mare as she isn't insured and I couldnt afford to pay for GG (it was all done on advice from my vet).  She had 3 sachets a day - in her feed - of Omperazole and there was a huge difference within a week of her having it.  She has done a 5wk course on 3 sachets a day and is now down to the maintenance of 1 sachet a day, again on the advice of my vet.  

I have had no problems at all in feeding the granules and have had amazing results from them.  My mare is 19 and, at the want of sounding like a broken record, out competing and winning at Elementary/Medium level BD after having nearly 6yrs off breeding me two youngsters.  She looks and feels better than ever and nothing else in her diet has changed apart from the addition of Omeprazole.

I am not however saying it will have the same effect on everyones horses, it worked for mine, doesnt mean it will work for others.  

With reference to PS, I dont see any harm in her trying Star on it at all, if it works it works, if it doesnt, I am sure PS will do whatever she feels is right for her horse.


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## Jesstickle (26 April 2012)

ester said:



			for some reason I had never realised that merial was AZ until yesterday! 

I prob am as sad and tragic as you  and anything that is more interesting than writing up 

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How's it going? I am almost, almost thinking about applying for next year. Tell me this is lunacy please. I've never wanted to do one before and I know I'll hate it so what is wrong with me?!



Ilovefoals said:



			As I said way, way back. It's a waste of money feeding it in granule form. I bought it off an American website not really thinking about what I was doing.  Read instructions when it arrived to add it to the feed and thought, hmmm. That aint gonna work! Half was spat out, kicked over etc and since it's supposed to be given on an empty stomach, probably wouldn't have worked even if she'd eaten it all. Biggest waste of £150 ever 

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Why not just re suspend it in water/yoghurt and syringe it in. Got to be better than putting it in food and more of a known quantity then?



noodle_ said:



			Gastrogard IS omeprazole...

So i will put my horses reults forward if anyones interested to see the results of bothe GG and omeprazole
		
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I for one would be very interested to know the results noodle_ 

And gg is made of omeprazole. They are the same drug substance. The only difference is the way they are presented. Sounds like a small difference but can be more significant than people expect but as no one really knows yet it seems silly to write off generic omeprazole just yet! I think your horse will be an interesting case study FWIW


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## TarrSteps (26 April 2012)

noodle_ said:



			Gastrogard IS omeprazole...

Mine is on Gastrogard (will be 6 weeks when done)  and will be on Omeprazole in 3 weeks....


i cannot afford GG forever....she  needs 1/4 a tube a day, however Ome, is 1 sachet a day



I am scoping in 3 weeks (6 weeks on GG)  then putting her on a month of Omeprazole... re-scoping....


So i will put my horses reults forward if anyones interested to see the results of bothe GG and omeprazole


GG does work as she improved significantly... if for any reason Ome dosent work (should do... my vet confirmed it)! then i am trialing an error with other stuff.....




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This is exactly how they recommend using it - Gg to sort the horse out initially, a lesser strength product for maintenance.


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## Holidays_are_coming (26 April 2012)

My mare is on the America ompeprazole and she had a very stressful couple of weeks (at 3 packs a day) complete change of routine and constant poking and proding and touch wood, she hasn't coliced yet (which is her ulcer sign) so I'm thinking it must be working from reading the papers they recommend on a empty stomach as the coating only lasts 5 hrs in stomach acid so if the stomach is full it's not likely to get through before the coating wears off.


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## Ilovefoals (26 April 2012)

I know the drug works for my horse as she's already had 8wks worth of GG.  I just found it impossible to give the correct amount of granules when some is lost thru the horse dropping feed, bucket accidently kicked over and the fact that Omeprazole is most effective when fed on an empty stomach. Since PS has already ordered it, my post is probably pointless as I was just trying to save her some money. Also, if it isn't effective fed like that as was with my mare, it may make some people think "oh well, my horse can't have ulcers then" when in fact they still could well have ulcers, it's just that the granules haven't worked in the way that GG does.  Only trying to help. And no, it probably wont do him any harm to try it.


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## ester (26 April 2012)

jesstickle said:



			How's it going? I am almost, almost thinking about applying for next year. Tell me this is lunacy please. I've never wanted to do one before and I know I'll hate it so what is wrong with me?!
		
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I think you and me might need to have a chat about this   perhaps with JFTD . (hopefully finished writing up juneish, while multiple labs onsite scrap over me to do some casual work to pay for it, and fitting in proper job hunting  examiners can't do until sept/oct tho so a bit of a buffer) 

Ps sorry if we have hi-jacked your thread a bit but it is interesting, hope you don't mind .


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## Sneedy (26 April 2012)

ester said:



			for some reason I had never realised that merial was AZ until yesterday! 

I prob am as sad and tragic as you  and anything that is more interesting than writing up 

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Think Merial is the animal health division of Sanofi not AZ??


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## Jesstickle (26 April 2012)

Ilovefoals said:



			I know the drug works for my horse as she's already had 8wks worth of GG.  I just found it impossible to give the correct amount of granules when some is lost thru the horse dropping feed, bucket accidently kicked over and the fact that Omeprazole is most effective when fed on an empty stomach. Since PS has already ordered it, my post is probably pointless as I was just trying to save her some money. Also, if it isn't effective fed like that as was with my mare, it may make some people think "oh well, my horse can't have ulcers then" when in fact they still could well have ulcers, it's just that the granules haven't worked in the way that GG does.  Only trying to help. And no, it probably wont do him any harm to try it.
		
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As someone who has used it is there a reason you can't syringe it in to them? Surely that has to be the best option for granules which are soluble and are meant to be taken on an empty stomach. Am I missing something? Are they really chunky and hard to dissolve?



ester said:



			I think you and me might need to have a chat about this   perhaps with JFTD . (hopefully finished writing up juneish, while multiple labs onsite scrap over me to do some casual work to pay for it, and fitting in proper job hunting  examiners can't do until sept/oct tho so a bit of a buffer)
		
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I know I don't really want to do it. I am just a bit disillusioned at the moment. Would be much worse doing a PhD though! I know that really. That's a bum about examiners. Are you looking for post docs or are you going to come to industry do you think?


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## Holidays_are_coming (26 April 2012)

I think your correct sneedy, it's all got confusing in the last few yrs!


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## Jesstickle (26 April 2012)

Sneedy said:



			Think Merial is the animal health division of Sanofi not AZ??
		
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It is Sanofi I think. But AZ definitely hold the trade marks so there must be some deal/connection going on there?

The world of pharma is sooo complicated. Even when you work in it!!


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## Holidays_are_coming (26 April 2012)

If u dissolve the granules you lose there enteric coating so they are best mixed with molasses or something sticky


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## Jesstickle (26 April 2012)

Holidays_are_coming said:



			If u dissolve the granules you lose there enteric coating so they are best mixed with molasses or something sticky
		
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I thought the whole point is that they aren't coated? Otherwise why would anyone bother with Gastrogard?   I shall go off and do some more googling as I've clearly missed somethign!


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## ester (26 April 2012)

hmm not sure, this is where I read the AZ link, it is the US merial site for gastrogard. 

http://gastrogard.us.merial.com/index.shtml


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## TarrSteps (26 April 2012)

jesstickle said:



			I thought the whole point is that they aren't coated? Otherwise why would anyone bother with Gastrogard?   I shall go off and do some more googling as I've clearly missed somethign!
		
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I think they are coated, the debate is over what with.  Aren't the Gg people suing some of the other suppliers over similarities which they feel impinge patent?


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (26 April 2012)

Jess they are definately coated 

fortunately CS is a piggy eater and licks the bucket clean so doubt many will get missed!

advice i have had from US is to sprinke on top of feed right before feeding to minimise mushing up/unintentional dissolving.

i had a clients horse in for schooling that had GG, just before feed in am and pm???????????????????????????????????


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## SpottedCat (26 April 2012)

GG Should be given at least 30 mins before feed on an empty stomach for best effect - I used to take horse out of stable whilst mucking out, then give GG after I'd finished, then groom then ride. It's a faff! 

This may also not be helpful, but now GBO is on fibre feed (pure feeds) I feed him with ulcer calm added whilst I'm grooming, then ride. Totally against what you were taught about feeding but actually fine to do if you have a fibre only diet. Makes a big difference to how argumentative he is.


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## Supanova (26 April 2012)

Jeez - what a thread!  I only got up to about page 15 and not sure i have time to read the rest!

PS - My thoughts, for what they are worth.  Sorry i haven't read all your previous posts but does he exhibit other signs of having gastric ulcers other than the rearing?  I sometimes think that gastric ulcers are everyone's answer at the moment.  They seem to be very fashionable!  I recently tried Omeprazole on my mare who i suspected my have gastric ulcers (she cribs and is a bit girthy) but have noticed absolutely no difference after a month.  I also had my other mare scoped (as she behaved like she had them) but was totally clear.  Whilst i am sure they are very common, i think sometimes the HHO forum can make us think that all horses have got them.  Having said all that, if he exhibits other signs of gastric upset then i would definitely have him scoped so at least you can rule it out.  I feel that using Omeprazole might not tell you anything.  Its not like he rears up every day so you might not be able to tell the difference and he could have a good run of form and it just be conincidence. 

Of course, the rearing could just be naughty behaviour, but it strikes me that there is something else going on, particularly the way that it seems to be so random and without much warning.  For instance, my 5 yr old went up (rather explosively) on Saturday but i know exactly why she did it.  She was napping to her mate, over excited, wanted her own way and i couldn't get her feet moving as someone was in the way.

As someone else said, thermal imaging may be a useful tool.  It is by no means perfect but it may pick out some areas which your vet could look at and rule out or in.

The other point that jumped out at me was that he was worse in a snaffle......have you ruled out any mouth problems?  Again the thermal imaging may help here.

By the way, I think you do a great job with CS and you do a good job of ignoring some of the bi*c*y comments on here.


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## NR99 (26 April 2012)

What's interesting is that despite all this really useful information, CS may not even require it - his antics might be caused by something completely different and without a scope you'll never know? 

Even if he improves on any of the drugs, he may have improved anyway as it may be as you say PS because it is perhaps not best to give him the winter off.  You could therefore continue giving drugs when they are not required, so wouldn't it be better to do the scope anyway and then try the Omeprazole granules have ordered so you know what you are trying to cure?  Especially as you say you are on a restricted budget and could end up paying for the drugs for a long time because you are under the impression they work, but you won't have actual proof that they have - just a thought?


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## rhino (26 April 2012)

Tempi said:



			I dont think you can really say that, obviously it didnt work for your horse, but doesnt mean it wont work for others.

I am not however saying it will have the same effect on everyones horses, it worked for mine, doesnt mean it will work for others.
		
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So you instantly dismiss some anecdotal evidence saying it _doesn't work_ yet then immediately state factually that it _did work_ for you. Did you scope pre and post treatment? Were ulcers even officially diagnosed in your horse? Lots and lots of anecdotes in this thread, no real evidence either way.



NR99 said:



			What's interesting is that despite all this really useful information, CS may not even require it - his antics might be caused by something completely different and without a scope you'll never know? 

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That's it. Give a drug which may or may not work for a specific type of ulcers, to a horse that may or may not have ulcers. Just because others are doing it doesn't make it right...


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## Worried1 (26 April 2012)

BH do you just never learn? You tried to be clever on FB before and very nearly got yourself into serious trouble. 

I'm really glad you have made some progress with your own horse, its soul destroying when things are not 'right' as im sure you know only too well. This however doesn't give you the right to be spiteful to other people because they are encountering some issues.

If you have nothing nice to say then do the adult thing and say nothing. 

When you post on the defensive you seem intent on making things personal by using someone's name. Unless that person chooses to make their name public then don't abuse your position of knowledge.  

It's easy to hide behind a user ID but I wonder just how brave you would be face to face?

A life conducted by revelling in other people's misfortune (which btw you make a habit of, and i should know as you directed some of your FB posts at me and my family personally) is no life at all.

PS if you would like the name of a pharmacist on here let me know, I'm know she would be happy to help in demystifying drugs and brand names etc.

Blitz is off form too so think it might just be bay boys being a bit batty!


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## Jesstickle (26 April 2012)

TarrSteps said:



			I think they are coated, the debate is over what with.  Aren't the Gg people suing some of the other suppliers over similarities which they feel impinge patent?
		
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I could find at least three instances where AZ (cos it was the human one I was looking at)  tried to sue generic manufacturers specifically over the coating so it would  make sense if it was the same with the horse one!

Pharma is such an insane industry. That is my whole observation from this. lol


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## Sneedy (26 April 2012)

jesstickle said:



			Pharma is such an insane industry. That is my whole observation from this. lol 

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Ahhhhhh..............but it pays the bills    !!!!!!!


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (26 April 2012)

if he improves consistantly on the omeprazole, and stays inmroved, safe to say its working because he IS so erratic, anything thats making a difference makes a continued difference-he has got less prickly/snappy and happier since changing sugar beet to grass nuts, has got looser over his back and stifle has nearly stopped sticking completely (as long as in work) whilst using magnet rug, he got consistantly and progressively worse on pure feeds etc-its easy to tell with him after a week or 2 weeks because that particular issue loses its erratic-ness (if thats a word)...........hasten to add that nothing has ever made him more, or less, prone to standing up.

his teeth are fine, he's done by Dean Andrews who i have 500% faith in, i wouldnt want anyone else to do them and he isnt *mouthy*-doesnt toss head, chomp bit, lean on one side, spit food etc. The contact issue is that he is over light in a snaffle, takes it forward in a double, if teeth were sore i think he'd be worse with the weight/bulk of 2 bits, surely?


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## Jesstickle (26 April 2012)

Sneedy said:



			Ahhhhhh..............but it pays the bills    !!!!!!!
		
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It didn't pay mine! I am in diagnostics now. Not that anything lab based really pays for two horses, I should have been an accountant!


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## Zeus (26 April 2012)

Sometimes we look so deeply into what could be wrong with the horse (and rightly so) when in actual fact they are being nappy little *****s.


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## zoon (26 April 2012)

To those wondering - the AstraZeneca link with omeprazole  is that they had the original patent on the drug as capsules of enteric coated granules under the brand name of Losec.  So although GG is a patented product, the patent is not on the drug, but on its presentation as has already been said.  Another company can legally come up with another veterinary omeprazole product as long as the presentation does not infringe the GG patent.  The patent on AZs replacement product Nexium (esomeprazole - the active isomer of omeprazole) has also just ran out, although doubt this drug will filter into the veterinary market.


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## luckyhorseshoe (26 April 2012)

Oh my, wasted a lot of my evening reading this. :s
Ps - sounds like you've got lots of option, good luck with your research. Hope you find something that might be of use.

Do you think there will be any chance of this post making the top 5 in hh this week? :s


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## Llanali (26 April 2012)

^ they usually keep the controversial ones out I think....

Interesting that I have learnt more about my employer and it's patents/expiry/legal battle on an horse forum!! I never knew there were so many of us employed by the great corporate wheel of 'improving lives' !!


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## noodle_ (26 April 2012)

jesstickle said:



			And gg is made of omeprazole. They are the same drug substance. The only difference is the way they are presented. Sounds like a small difference but can be more significant than people expect but as no one really knows yet it seems silly to write off generic omeprazole just yet! I think your horse will be an interesting case study FWIW 

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thanks - will keep you updated 



TarrSteps said:



			This is exactly how they recommend using it - Gg to sort the horse out initially, a lesser strength product for maintenance.
		
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yep thats the plan - 6 weeks on GG and 1 sachet per day maintence of OMe....and re-scope to make sure the amount of OME is working - if not the scope shoudl tell us.... and i can up the OME amount and re-scope!!

Insurance runs out by next scope (3 months - 5k    ) so will be funding it myself


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (26 April 2012)

just a quick update, all ive changed so far is that he's had a quick massage with the hand held unit before riding, and now has a big dead ferret poll pad instead of his leather one, and a slightly chunkier rubber curb guard, and he has been weirdly good last 2 nights! one minor nap (proper napping to a pony leaving the yard for a hack, was so obviously a nappy moment!!!!) but a swift boot and he was off, really good boy........odd........good,but odd.........

will continue to play with bits and bobs and update


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## Jesstickle (26 April 2012)

Llanali said:



			.

Interesting that I have learnt more about my employer and it's patents/expiry/legal battle on an horse forum!! I never knew there were so many of us employed by the great corporate wheel of 'improving lives' !!
		
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Good innit? The learning I mean. I'm not so entirely convinced by the 'improving lives' corporate wheel. Pretty sure they're all evil once you get near enough the top. But hey, someone has to develop new drugs don't they? Or in our case tests for diseases you don't actually need to test for because there isn't any treatment


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## Laafet (26 April 2012)

Again not getting into the whole legal whatever battle. PS you might find it works better if you mix it with live yoghurt and syringe it before feeds. I just know that anecedotally with work horses that anything with a gastro upset absorb drugs better this way. Personally I was surprised when I was given diclofenac for back pain that they didn't also give me Omeprazole to counteract the effect that diclofenac can have on the guts, a previous doctor had but my current doctors don't bother. Thankfully a friend had some so I managed to get the right drugs down me and get better!


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## Fuzzypuff (26 April 2012)

Another thought is the calmer... have you used that dose before? Could he have been fighting it. I used to use Pro Kalm on my previous horse. It was seriously effective, he was totally horizontal on it (sadly also flat for mediocre marks..) but when the effect started to wear off he'd get really fidgety, much more so than he would be on a normal basis. Maybe there's something in the way that the calmer is working on him?


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## Santa_Claus (26 April 2012)

if you actually wanted to try GG someone has posted on the HHO FB group selling 8 tubes for £100! not mine before anyone jumps up and down. although saying that is it legal to sell on GG!?!?


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## Llanali (27 April 2012)

Jesstickle- cant quote as on phone but the improving lives was definitely mainly tongue in cheek....... I think improving lives goes hand in hand with improving profit in the world we work in.


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## Dirty_D (27 April 2012)

He looks stunning, so smart and grown up!

My only comments are we all have off days - animals included!

We all have bad days - usually with no mental/ physical reason.

Lets face it we can all be little sh**s for no reason so why cant horses?!??!


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## Kokopelli (27 April 2012)

PS did you get his eyes looked at today?

Interested to know if anything has come from that, if it's any consolation my lad has been a complete knobber lately!


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## nikkimariet (27 April 2012)

Kokopelli said:



			PS did you get his eyes looked at today
		
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No, our vet friend got stuck on the M1/Sheffield so couldn't make it to ours before it was crazy late


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## JFTDWS (27 April 2012)

my only comment would be that you can't complain you don't get any comments on your competition reports, PS 

(well alright, secondary comments would include that he looks lovely before he flipped out  )


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## flump (28 April 2012)

Dont normally post in here but do follow your threads, He is stunning! I would def send my camel pony to you for schooling 

Alll horses have off days as do humans!


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## amandaco2 (29 April 2012)

ah what a shame....
he looks super, really working beautifully
maybe its spring grass combined with a comp that didnt quite mix?i know my lot have been very full of themselves, esp once the warmer weather ended and we seem to be back into chilly spring weather.
as an aside, re the drug route, id be guided by the vet tbh. speaking as a healthcare profession, you could be wasting your time and money unnecessarily buying meds.... esp GG which is £££


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## Talented Mare (11 May 2012)

Just like to ask whats wrong with getting the Horse scoped?? I have an ex racer which had clear sympstoms of ulcers so to be sure i got it scoped before i started pumping exspensive/ supplements medicines into him. 

Dont want to sound rude and i have not read whole thread or so but i do question why not scope!

P.s he is a luvly looking boy hopefully my boy will soon look as good as him. gives me hope!


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (11 May 2012)

there has been an update since this thread, that would indicate the horse is responding to omeprazole, thus must have ulcers of some form as he is not a horse to be easy peasy several days in a row!

have had 3 fab rides this week and he is DEFINATELY more forward, quicker, and looser over the back, sooner, cant be coincidence as the omeprazole is the only thing thats changed.

whilst i can see that scoping straight away is the ideal route, in this case i have saved ££££ to put towards more omeprazole and vet agrees that his improvement is more than likely due to that.


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## amage (11 May 2012)

Actually was discussing ulcers with my vet the other day and she feels doing the omeprazole trial the way you are doing PS is far more beneficial. With scoping you cannot check the cecum etc so she said often if she finds no ulcers on scope she would do drug trial anyway as scope can't rule them out 100%. Basically said if horse is uninsured then they don't scope as will have to try the GG anyway so easier to just do that!


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## Talented Mare (11 May 2012)

ok, sorry just didnt have enough time to completley read the thread and have seen a little of another thread now the valeveiw one. 

What your trying then sounds positive. Fingers crossed all works out. 

do keep us updated as this could be a consideration for me to try with the boy once gastrogaurd is out!


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (11 May 2012)

will do, no probs


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## now_loves_mares (11 May 2012)

Amage, was your vet suggesting omeprazole (predictive text wanted to put omertà ole!) could treat hind gut ulcers? My mare had them and was told by vet, plus lots of reading, that it's very hard to get anything to work that far back. My mare had 6 weeks of GG which cured her stomach ulcers but not her colitis


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## SpottedCat (11 May 2012)

At the risk of repeating myself, the problem with not scoping is that some ulcers don't respond to GG and also require antibiotics. So going with omeprezole first may work (as in this case) or it may not - but it not working doesn't mean there are no ulcers, so you would have to scope anyway. Therefore given the relative cheapness of scoping (about the same as two anky pads and matching bandages ), it makes sense to scope first, then you a) know what you are treating and b) have a baseline to measure improvement against. Whilst clearly in this case the dice fell in PS' favour, if the omeprezole had no effect then that didn't rule out ulcers. So long as one is aware of that, and doesn't assume that ulcers therefore aren't the issue, then there's no reason not to do it this way round. The problem arises when people think omeprezole is the be all and end all and then go down a lot of blind alleys thinking they have ruled out ulcers when in fact they haven't.

(PS I know you know this, am aiming this at the wider audience who reads all this stuff!! )


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## amage (11 May 2012)

now_loves_mares said:



			Amage, was your vet suggesting omeprazole (predictive text wanted to put omertà ole!) could treat hind gut ulcers? My mare had them and was told by vet, plus lots of reading, that it's very hard to get anything to work that far back. My mare had 6 weeks of GG which cured her stomach ulcers but not her colitis 

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No but she has noted some mild improvements in trials and appetite improved whereas without the GG the appetite was non-existant. They eventually pinpointed the cause to being a feed ingredient that the horse couldn't tolerate (Soya Bean I think!). Either way while the GG didn't cure it helped. Her attitude is if symptoms are there then treat whether they show up scoped (if you choose to scope) or not.


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