# Symptoms of Kissing Spines.......?



## Perfect_Pirouette (4 January 2013)

I know I am probably being/getting stupidly paranoid but I can't help it.

Rode orange one last night for first time since Physio/Osteo on Mon. Now to be fair it was only the first time, however he was still REALLY unhappy to have saddle on/girth tightened.

It COULD just be remembered pain from before physio came as she did find a fair bit of soreness etc. However, I am starting to look ahead and think what if it's not? She echoed what I had been thinking re ulcers so if girthiness continues I will investigate the ulcer possibility. 

Someone said something to me last night that worried me about KS. They said they had a horse with it and described exactly how orange one is. They said it was only after horse got fitter and they started asking more of him (funny, exactly the same) and the first symptom was bad reaction to being tacked up/girth. 

So now I am panicking and paranoid about KS. Argh. I just want to go down today and tack him up and him be normal again 

Ridden wise last night he was A LOT better. Much more loose, swingy, relaxed and even in the contact so something must have been done right Mon. It's just this aversion to the girth now that needs to right itself.

So....for anyone that's had a horse with KS, what were the first signs? Don't worry I'm not going to self-diagnose my poor horse lol. I just want to explore every avenue of what it could be.


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## lyndagriffiths (4 January 2013)

First symptoms were objecting to being tacked up, final time he was tacked up his legs buckled in stable.  Also with hindsight (so bloody perfect is hindsight) over time he had become very sensitive to grooming, generally more bad tempered (not like him) didnt like to turn sharply to close gate when being brought in and his aversion to jumping combinations (because he couldnt physically shorten up - hindsight again).  He had been passed to me for dressage because of jumping issues and he was for a while marvelous at it but then he started objecting to certain movements on flat.  Everyone else said he was just being Nappy - glad I stuck to my opinion that whilst he was quirky, he hadnt been a nasty horse and refered to Vets for full work up.  He was exceptionally bad, beyond two sites of kissing spine, his back was so altered that ligaments were being squashed and furthermore had arthritic changes in pelvis that would have been expected in a 20+ year old.  He was 7.  Even though I had Insurance money to pay for treatment the Vets could do nothing, bless him.  However, that is my story and unlikely that yours will be anywhere as severe but stay with your gut instinct and get it checked out.  Good luck, hoping for a happy ending.


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## ellie_e (4 January 2013)

My horse was dianosed a week ago, currently waiting for a bone scan and surgery. His KS isnt too bad, has 2 fusions and 1 thats worn. 
 He had been seen by a physio for about 9months before I got vet. He is very sharp to ride and also but things down to him being naughty/awkward. 
 His trot canter transitions are poor, (walk canter is fine), he struggles with leg yielding, he is alot weaker on the right rein compared to the left. I put all of this down to a schooling issue, and with physio's advised worked him in a pessoa, 2/3times a week and he seemed to improve, however he seemed to stop developing and improving so needed to look into things further.
 More recently hes been struggeling with his jumping, something that hasnt been an issue before, he seemed to be backing off bigger fences 1m+ and on landing seemed to be awkward as if he was in pain.  Took him to the clinic and first xrayed his hocks but everything there was fine, we had a 2week trial of bute and he seemed much better, looser, happier jumping, and leg yeilding showed massive improvements. 
 We then went back to clinic last Friday, they lunged him again, and this time saw him worked under saddle without being on bute, vet was very alarmed as hes such a gentle chap to handle but to ride he is the devil, he showed the vet his party tricks, rearing, spinning etc. Decided to xray his back and the KS showed up. 
 I would get his scoped for ulcers before you go down xrays etc as its expensive. I had mine scoped about 6months before all of this going on and he was fine, perfectly healthy!


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## Jesstickle (4 January 2013)

Lots and lots of horses have KS (really, I read a paper from Rossdales where 70 something% of the control group had them when x-rayed, I think I found another one which suggested 50ish% of the control group so that wasn't a totally isolated paper either). 

I wouldn't panic until you have ruled out the more obvious candidates first. I'm pretty sure my horse will have them. Short coupled TB means that she almost certainly does (TBs appear to be more susceptible) but it isn't affecting her so I'm not going to go looking for something that isn't a problem.

How much have you played around with girthing solutions? Some horses have quite strong preferences on what they like and what they don't. I'm assuming you're girthing up nice and slowly etc. Are you sure your saddle fits? all the usual stuff. After a good fiddle with that I would probably look at ulcers as a first candidate.

ETS: sorry, I don't happen to have had one diagnosed. Just thought I'd mention the numbers  I have come across on my random internet readings as they are really interesting I thought...


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## HeresHoping (4 January 2013)

Hi, sorry you are having a few issues.

My boy was diagnosed with mild KS after we x-rayed his back following an accident on 22 October (a date branded on my brain).  We were looking for a fracture because he was in so much pain, but fortunately didn't find one. The x-rays were sent off to Cambridge and diagnosed as 'mild' and probably resolvable with specific work.

However, I had started to suspect there might have been something wrong some time before because for the first two months I had him, he had been a sweetie, and then it was like a switch going off.  He went from grass fat plodder requiring a lot of leg and seat to slightly more fit and toned in those two months.  And then the explosions started.  He was particularly bad in canter.  Without warning his head would go between his knees and the bucks would kick the stars out of the sky had it been dark.  Real rodeo style broncs.  It scared the whatsits out of me. It happened every other time I rode him.  In hindsight, when he was working properly there was an awful lot of tail swishing and ears back.  I naively thought it was because I was making him work rather than just 'exercise' (he had done nothing for 6 months prior to purchase as his previous owner was pregnant). He had always pulled faces and made the odd cow kick when being tacked up.

I was told by several professionals, including my instructor, that it was because he had got fitter and was pressing buttons. I was petrified of him but determined to work it out.  I felt utterly pathetic at not wanting to canter on the stubble field with everyone else out on a hack, but in truth he'd also started doing bucks in trot (!) and they showed no signs of stopping.

I also found that in just 2 months my saddle, which had been fitted to him on his arrival, no longer fitted and was pressing on the two areas where we subsequently found him to have the KS.

The work involves long and low in the EquiAmi for 12 weeks a minimum of 4 times per week at a minimum of 20 minutes, and long reining at least once per week, after he had recovered from the wrenching his SI joint took during the accident- approx 4 weeks.  I was to ride for a maximum of 10 minutes once a week at about week 4, for two weeks, and then twice per week at week 6, and build up every two weeks to include an extra session for an extra amount of time.  Bloody weather has put paid to that and we're a bit behind.  This slow return to riding is in an effort to help him forget the pain.

I find that if I lunge him for 10 minutes before tacking him up, he doesn't do the cow kicks or snatch at the girth. Although he has had a T8 made to fit him and it really shouldn't need anything more than a regular numnah, he doesn't do the tail swishing and face pulling thing with a sheepskin numnah.

I have also been having him lasered (LLLT) once a week for 20 minutes and he is fine to tack up immediately after this, suggesting that this light, intense massage warms his muscles enough for it not to cause discomfort.  Someone on here rather ingeniously rigged up an infra red light set using poultry lights and this has helped her cold-backed mare immensely.

Sorry, that's a long-winded way of saying that KS symptoms include a sudden change in behaviour following an increase in work and cold-backed reactions.

Take solace, though, that my vet says that if he X-rayed 100 horses, 70% would probably have KS and the one that presents the typical symptoms is not necessarily the one with the worst case on x-ray.


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## Perfect_Pirouette (4 January 2013)

lyndagriffiths said:



			First symptoms were objecting to being tacked up, final time he was tacked up his legs buckled in stable.  Also with hindsight (so bloody perfect is hindsight) over time he had become very sensitive to grooming, generally more bad tempered (not like him) didnt like to turn sharply to close gate when being brought in and his aversion to jumping combinations (because he couldnt physically shorten up - hindsight again).  He had been passed to me for dressage because of jumping issues and he was for a while marvelous at it but then he started objecting to certain movements on flat.  Everyone else said he was just being Nappy - glad I stuck to my opinion that whilst he was quirky, he hadnt been a nasty horse and refered to Vets for full work up.  He was exceptionally bad, beyond two sites of kissing spine, his back was so altered that ligaments were being squashed and furthermore had arthritic changes in pelvis that would have been expected in a 20+ year old.  He was 7.  Even though I had Insurance money to pay for treatment the Vets could do nothing, bless him.  However, that is my story and unlikely that yours will be anywhere as severe but stay with your gut instinct and get it checked out.  Good luck, hoping for a happy ending.
		
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 I'm not sure whether he's been more sensitive/grumpy to groom, I don't think so. He HAS got more sensitive to being brushed on his face though was okay last night. And to be fair, in the whole 9 months I've had him he's NEVER liked his face being brushed. I don't *think* he's got more bad tempered, he is always an odd horse as some days his little ears are pricked and he is whinnying and whickering at me the whole time and some days he stands there almost dopey and sad, ears back (not pinned just not forward) but again, he has always been like that. Hmmm. Sorry to hear about yours, well done for listening to you gut though, there's a lot to be said. I really don't want to end up with my boy's legs buckling 



ellie_e said:



			My horse was dianosed a week ago, currently waiting for a bone scan and surgery. His KS isnt too bad, has 2 fusions and 1 thats worn. 
 He had been seen by a physio for about 9months before I got vet. He is very sharp to ride and also but things down to him being naughty/awkward. 
 His trot canter transitions are poor, (walk canter is fine), he struggles with leg yielding, he is alot weaker on the right rein compared to the left. I put all of this down to a schooling issue, and with physio's advised worked him in a pessoa, 2/3times a week and he seemed to improve, however he seemed to stop developing and improving so needed to look into things further.
		
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This is very scary as it is very similar to him. He's not sharp to ride to be fair but his trot canter transitions on the right rein are poor and always have been, struggles with correct lead (though not on the lunge, on the lunge he gets it perfectly every time, I also get it more when I'm in lessons) He struggles with leg yielding although has gotten a lot better but to be fair I really do think that IS down to lack of schooling as he was so green when he came to me. He is also weaker on the right rein, always has been. These past 9 months he has improved leaps and bounds however these past couple of months I haven't seen an improvement. Yes, obviously the last month has been him in pain so it may just be that but i'm not sure. 

Gah, I could just be being paranoid. It may just be ulcers or nothing. If you look for something hard enough you'll find it. However if something is wrong I need to find out.

My dilemma though is I need to sell this horse in the next year, I didn't buy him as my 'forever horse' I bought him because I fell in love with him, realised how genuine and green he was and thought, well, with time and work he will be a lovely little horse and I will sell him on and buy my 'baby' to keep for many, many years. So as you can imagine, I will be in a predicament if it is anything sinister as it will seriously complicate me selling him and he's 12 now so I don't want to be keeping him for years and years as harsh as that sounds.


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## Jesstickle (4 January 2013)

Hereshoping, was that the vet school? I'm friends with Fran and  the on call lot as they were my vets for ages so just wondering who you know 

ETS: glad to hear your vet's experience backs up the numbers I  have pulled from papers. Always nice to know I haven't completely misinterpreted!


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## HeresHoping (4 January 2013)

Jesstinsel said:



			Hereshoping, was that the vet school? I'm friends with Fran and  the on call lot as they were my vets for ages so just wondering who you know 

ETS: glad to hear your vet's experience backs up the numbers I  have pulled from papers. Always nice to know I haven't completely misinterpreted!
		
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Hi, yes, my vet sent the x-rays to the vet school.  They were seen by...oh, Lordy, my mind has gone blank, but the spine specialist - is it Carole? Catherine?  Pam?  She is good friends with my vet who was in Newmarket but has now moved to Cambs.


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## Gamebird (4 January 2013)

Hereshoping said:



			Take solace, though, that my vet says that if he X-rayed 100 horses, 70% would probably have KS and the one that presents the typical symptoms is not necessarily the one with the worst case on x-ray.
		
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Absolutely. And that is why, once I'd seen KS on radiographs, I'd want the back blocked out before deciding whether they were the cause of the problem. If you block the area and the tense grumpy horse suddenly floats along with a smile then Bob's your etc. If there isn't much difference then you need to be looking elsewhere, regardless of radiographic changes. 

I do mean blocking for diagnostic purposes, not injecting the area for treatment purposes. People often confuse the two.


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## ellie_e (4 January 2013)

SummerxStarsx said:



 I'm not sure whether he's been more sensitive/grumpy to groom, I don't think so. He HAS got more sensitive to being brushed on his face though was okay last night. And to be fair, in the whole 9 months I've had him he's NEVER liked his face being brushed. I don't *think* he's got more bad tempered, he is always an odd horse as some days his little ears are pricked and he is whinnying and whickering at me the whole time and some days he stands there almost dopey and sad, ears back (not pinned just not forward) but again, he has always been like that. Hmmm. Sorry to hear about yours, well done for listening to you gut though, there's a lot to be said. I really don't want to end up with my boy's legs buckling 



This is very scary as it is very similar to him. He's not sharp to ride to be fair but his trot canter transitions on the right rein are poor and always have been, struggles with correct lead (though not on the lunge, on the lunge he gets it perfectly every time, I also get it more when I'm in lessons) He struggles with leg yielding although has gotten a lot better but to be fair I really do think that IS down to lack of schooling as he was so green when he came to me. He is also weaker on the right rein, always has been. These past 9 months he has improved leaps and bounds however these past couple of months I haven't seen an improvement. Yes, obviously the last month has been him in pain so it may just be that but i'm not sure. 

Gah, I could just be being paranoid. It may just be ulcers or nothing. If you look for something hard enough you'll find it. However if something is wrong I need to find out.

My dilemma though is I need to sell this horse in the next year, I didn't buy him as my 'forever horse' I bought him because I fell in love with him, realised how genuine and green he was and thought, well, with time and work he will be a lovely little horse and I will sell him on and buy my 'baby' to keep for many, many years. So as you can imagine, I will be in a predicament if it is anything sinister as it will seriously complicate me selling him and he's 12 now so I don't want to be keeping him for years and years as harsh as that sounds.
		
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Mine is 8, I asked vet very open and honestly would he have a competitive career again post surgery. As I couldnt keep him as a 'happy hack' as he doesnt find anything about hacking 'happy'  and I couldnt afford to fund another. Hes a WB costs me a fortune to keep warm, and feed and is very high maintence which is fine, if I can ride him. Vet said theres no reason why he wouldnt make a full recovery and go back to where he is now, just hopefully without any pain.
 Our plans this year were to event for a season then either keep him, or sell him. Im not sure there is a market for nice horses who have had KS surgery? I may be wrong, but as a buyer It would put me off, or I would want it seriously cheap ( I was hoping to sell him for £6-7k) 
 Honestly I would speak to your vet, get him scoped I paid for the scoping privetly was about £200 so not a huge amount compared to xray's and nerve blocks. I would imagine alot of horses will show some signs of KS, my BS trainer who also does alot for BE and the olympic team etc said she worked on a survey and looked at all high level horses in BD, BS and BE and a high % all had a degree of KS, I guess its just how they manage it,and the pain.


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## ellie_e (4 January 2013)

Gamebird said:



			Absolutely. And that is why, once I'd seen KS on radiographs, I'd want the back blocked out before deciding whether they were the cause of the problem. If you block the area and the tense grumpy horse suddenly floats along with a smile then Bob's your etc. If there isn't much difference then you need to be looking elsewhere, regardless of radiographic changes. 

I do mean blocking for diagnostic purposes, not injecting the area for treatment purposes. People often confuse the two.
		
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Mine was blocked and showed no difference, Vet said its not always as straight forward as blocking and then riding a perfect horse. If blocks arent in correct place, or you get remembered pain etc etc, we now have to wait to bone scan, which in itself is a pain in the a** waiting around to see if insurance will ok it!


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## wildcard (4 January 2013)

My friends horse was diagnosed with KS back end of last year and she only found out becuase he went into vets with a hock issue which was very minor and further investigation showed it was KS, previous to this he has competed BE all summer and had some of his best results showing no problems jumping, schooling etc and was ready to step up to BE100 the only symptom which might have linked to KS was his grumpy attitude but as he had always been like this was never classed as a symptom and was put down to his personality.. he had the surgery just before christmas and all went very well yet he was still a grumpy ******. Just to add he's a tb x racer, which like others have said seems to be more common in.. i would look at other options first and if no joy with a diagnosis then pursure  X Rays further for KS.  good luck and hope all works out for you.


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## Perfect_Pirouette (4 January 2013)

Okay, so REALLY numpty Q here sorry.

He has only displayed this aversion to saddle/girth in past 4-5 weeks. IF KS were the problem, would this have come on very recently or would he always have been iffy to girth/saddle? 

I ask because it ties in with a similar timescale to when he was clipped/feed changed etc. Also, I remember being at a comp in the summer and a lady was there who has known him years (long before me) and said oh how's he going yadda yadda and then I can't remember what we were talking about but she made a flippant comment like 'oh, because he's always been a bit cold backed hasn't he.' I was like 'Eh? Has he?' she was like 'Oh yes' 

Now I only got him in April so this is my first winter with him. ANOTHER numpty Q but if a horse IS cold backed is it worse in winter or same all year around?


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## Gamebird (4 January 2013)

ellie_e said:



			Mine was blocked and showed no difference, Vet said its not always as straight forward as blocking and then riding a perfect horse. If blocks arent in correct place, or you get remembered pain etc etc, we now have to wait to bone scan, which in itself is a pain in the a** waiting around to see if insurance will ok it!
		
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I'd definitely want to see a change - perhaps not quite as dramatic as I'd described (though those ones are brilliant!) but a definite difference in stride length etc. I agree that remembered pain might be an issue, but the horse should still move better once blocked.

Good luck with the bone scan. I think that's a sensible step as it will show whether there's an active process there. There isn't always enough room in the insurance budget to scan and then operate/rehab if necessary which can be a bit of a pain.


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## wench (4 January 2013)

I thought my horse had ulcers, and it turned out to be KS. She was always rather scrawny, but was put down to having poor teeth and picky appetite. She also windsucked, which got worse and worse over time.

The first other symptoms were she started getting girthy. Change of girth sorted this. I didnt have any transport at the time, so getting a gastroscope done on her would be tricky (and would have cost a couple of hundred quid transporting her to the vets). I got in touch with a mobile vet, and we waited a couple of months for him to come and scope her, when he was in the area.

In the mean time, she was not being ridden, due to me being busy. Came to do the scope - I hadnt seen the horse for approx three weeks. Took rug off and it was rather embarrassing - yard hadn't given her any hard feed, so she was in poor body condition and her coat looked awful. Anyway scoped and didn't find any ulcers. Did a blood test and turned out there was something else going on, which we ended up giving a month's worth of antibiotics for, which appeared to cure the problem.

Yard started feeding her to some extent, which helped with the body condition, but she never really fattened up. Started bringing her back into very light work, and she was a bit fidgety being mounted, but didn't think much of it. Took her out for a lesson, and she seemed very "nervous" to start with, but once she had settled she was fine.

She then carried on being a pain to get on, but with her being 4, just thought she was being a baby! Took her out to a SJ practise day, and she was a real nightmare for the rider to get on, and for the first five mins, she then settled down, jumped everything put in front of her, and didn't show any problems whatsoever. Then took 45 mins to load on the way home.

The getting on got worse, so I tried taking it back to basics - leading her around the mounting block, giving treats etc if she stood still. Eventually got to the stage where I could get foot in the stirrup in saddle and ride her round. She did feel very tense under saddle, however the two times I did this there were children shrieking outside the indoor school, so assumed that they were upsetting her.

She then went away for schooling, and when they started doing more work with her, she really, really played up. Got vet out, and tried a couple of things, and in the end, it turned out she had bad KS, and potential problems with hocks. Whilst she was away for schooling she was fed up, and it was then noticeable that she did not have the correct musculature, and lumpy bits along her spine.

Anyway so point being, the symptoms pointed to a couple of things, and had I investigated properly a year before it was diagnosed, I might have been able to do something about it. Other problems included me being sold a saddle that never could have fitted her, which probably didnt help the KS. She didnt have a great digestive system, however if that yard had a more appopriate feeding regime for her, we could well have picked up on the problem earlier.

Moral of the story - take the horse to the vet. Get investigated for KS, and as game birds suggestion, see if this is the problem. If not scope for ulcers.


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## ellie_e (4 January 2013)

Gamebird said:



			I'd definitely want to see a change - perhaps not quite as dramatic as I'd described (though those ones are brilliant!) but a definite difference in stride length etc. I agree that remembered pain might be an issue, but the horse should still move better once blocked.

Good luck with the bone scan. I think that's a sensible step as it will show whether there's an active process there. There isn't always enough room in the insurance budget to scan and then operate/rehab if necessary which can be a bit of a pain.
		
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Thanks GB. I would of hoped for improvement but we spent most of the time on 2legs or being blown side wards in the howling rain and wind  
 He was insured for £7k vets fees, but I renewed his policy and cant remember if I lowered it to £5k and cant find the new policy to check  If I did lower it, I will be SO annoyed with myself.
Ive never had to claim on insurance before what a hassle it is!!!!


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## philamena (4 January 2013)

I know I keep banging on about this on other threads  but girthiness / reactivity to saddle can be muscular pain around the pectorals / girth area / chest. Mine was a total extreme sport to saddle or even to put a roller on. She had ulcers which we treated, but was still just the same. We discovered she had patches of serious back muscle spasms from the poll to the tail bless her because of working with an old injury that wasn't treated... we worked through her spasmed areas gradually with an osteo because it was more than one treatment's work by far, and even once her back was soft and completely non-reactive, she was still very girthy and would run away from the roller (wasn't being ridden at this point obv)... then when we got to the later treatments and the osteo worked on her pectorals, between her front legs, chest and under her shoulders, she came back a completely different horse. You can stand and tickle her under there, rub her skin around, saddle and roller without her even turning an eye to you. 

Back x rays aren't horribly expensive so you should be able to get an answer fairly easily (and it's always reassuring to have seen inside even if there's nothing to see!) but I think muscular probs in the undercarriage(!) as a cause of girthiness is often overlooked. She would react when the saddle or roller went on her back because she knew the girth was coming, not because her back was still sore.


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## Perfect_Pirouette (4 January 2013)

philamena said:



			I know I keep banging on about this on other threads  but girthiness / reactivity to saddle can be muscular pain around the pectorals / girth area / chest. Mine was a total extreme sport to saddle or even to put a roller on. She had ulcers which we treated, but was still just the same. We discovered she had patches of serious back muscle spasms from the poll to the tail bless her because of working with an old injury that wasn't treated... we worked through her spasmed areas gradually with an osteo because it was more than one treatment's work by far, and even once her back was soft and completely non-reactive, she was still very girthy and would run away from the roller (wasn't being ridden at this point obv)... then when we got to the later treatments and the osteo worked on her pectorals, between her front legs, chest and under her shoulders, she came back a completely different horse. You can stand and tickle her under there, rub her skin around, saddle and roller without her even turning an eye to you. 

Back x rays aren't horribly expensive so you should be able to get an answer fairly easily (and it's always reassuring to have seen inside even if there's nothing to see!) but I think muscular probs in the undercarriage(!) as a cause of girthiness is often overlooked. She would react when the saddle or roller went on her back because she knew the girth was coming, not because her back was still sore.
		
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Interesting!!

See, I can groom, rub, stroke his back and girth area with no reaction. It is only when he sees sight of the saddle/girth. Once girth is done he seems fine and lets me get on etc. It is just the sight of the saddle and girth and the process of doing the girth up that he reacts to. By reacts I mean ears back, worried look on his face and CONSTANT moving about whilst I'm adjusting the saddle, doing up the girth etc.

I noticed last night that due to some loss of topline these past few weeks the saddle doesn't fit as well as it did. Not horrendous by any means but I would have said 3 months ago it was a perfect fit whereas now perhaps a little wide. So will get saddler out too.


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## humblepie (4 January 2013)

My horse only really showed it as struggling in canter.  Walk/trot work as good as ever.    No issues with girthing etc although I had thought he seemed a little under the weather/not his usual self for a few weeks leading up to having a lameness work up done.   He had also lost muscle definition in his neck.   He had a full body scan, then blocks done at places in his neck and back which identified the problem area.


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## Perfect_Pirouette (4 January 2013)

humblepie said:



			My horse only really showed it as struggling in canter.  Walk/trot work as good as ever.    No issues with girthing etc although I had thought he seemed a little under the weather/not his usual self for a few weeks leading up to having a lameness work up done.   He had also lost muscle definition in his neck.   He had a full body scan, then blocks done at places in his neck and back which identified the problem area.
		
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When you say struggling do you mean to get in/get correct lead or to stay in canter?

TBH, his canter has been worrying me for a while now as his walk and trot has come on loads but his canter has never really caught up. I keep wondering what I can do differently and thinking after 9 months I should be seeing more than a 'slight' improvement. I do feel an improvement in lessons though which could well indicate rider error.

If physically everything is fine I may get my instructor on him and see how he canters with her.


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## lcharles (4 January 2013)

My gelding has got a bit girthy over the last 6 weeks as well, I put it down to him being clipped - he has a full clip with no saddle patch. His new saddlecloth has rubbed a bit of fur off from behind his saddle, so will have to stop using it. His hair hasn't really grown back as quickly as usual so i'm going to see if he's ok once his hair is back! He is more senstive to being brushed in his saddle area with a bristled brush but ok with a soft brush. He has got slightly worse with being girthy though, i thought he may have got better as the hair grew back slightly but not sure if the hair has grown much at all! 

Its interesting that 70% of horses have signs of KS though!  x

My back massaging lady gave him a full massage - costs £20 and said he had a lot of pressure in his poll area, down his neck and through his back but he was better the second time she saw him. Going to stick with them every 6 weeks to treat him and to loosen up any muscle aches he may have. Obviously they cant diagnose KS but can possibly help indicate where they have pain/strained areas x


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## Twiglet (4 January 2013)

I think the issue is also with the fact the reactions you're seeing can be attributed to lots of different things - most pain related, but also behavioural - they're classic 'I don't like this' evasion reactions. So whether it be kissing spines, ulcers, sore muscles or winter grumpiness, it's difficult to pinpoint anything without investigation.

Have you had a full vet work up done? For the cost of a call out and a consultation I'd be discussing the lot with the vet, mentioning where the issues occur and when they started.  

You say you've changed his feed recently - why and what to? My old TB had a reaction to Alfa A/alfalfa that you could have said looked like he had kissing spines, he was so extreme....didn't want to be groomed, girthed, ridden or rugged - his skin was so sensitive you would have thought he was in lots of pain.


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## Firewell (4 January 2013)

I'd start with the saddle. I was having problems with my horse, I just could not get him working into an even contact. He felt wonky, lazy, trying to tuck his head in behind the bridle, if I pushed him on he would rush instead of lengthening. It was driving me crazy! He was grumpy being brushed, kicking out being saddled.
Pretty obvious now but looking back I had two reputable saddlers come out and say my saddle was fine and it had been bought for him brand new 18 months previously so I did not think.
I carried on and then one day I just thought my saddle was too wide. It wasn't on his withers but it seemed to be digging in behind his shoulders and I felt like it was tipping me forwards.
I tried a friends saddle and he felt so much better. My friends saddle was a Kieffer and to my untrained eye it looked a perfect fit and I just got a good feeling from my horse about it. So I bought two beautiful second hand ones. A 2yr old dressage one and a 1yr old gp/jump one. Both exactly the same size and for a fraction of their new retail price.
My horse is like a different animal now.
I got a different saddler out just to check them but my instincts said they were right. The saddler said they were perfect. The flocking on one needed adjusting slightly and that was it!
Maybe I just got lucky but the amount of times with this horse and my last horse that saddlers have said that a saddle has fitted and yet iv'e had a niggling doubt about it has been a lot. So from now on I'm going to listen to myslf and my horse with regards to these sorts of things.
Before changing the saddle I was on the brink of going down the full work up route and I'm so glad I didn't and that I started with the simple things first. I also had a back person out and they specifically found tension behind the top of his shoulders and the base of the wither, bascially where the old saddle was putting pressure. 
I also know that I am slightly wonky myself and I tend to sit to the right a bit on my horse, of course that makes him a little stiff on one rein.
I do sometimes think that if you fully assessed every horse with bone scans and work ups and everything you are bound to find *something*, just like we would with us, we all have our aches and pains and weak spots! However if the horse can cope, it's not in pain and it doesn't affect their work I often think it's best to leave well alone. I'd always start with the simple things first like the saddle or teeth or schooling/rider and then if they don't work then explore further .
Good luck.


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## Firewell (4 January 2013)

P.s my horse was a pain on alfalfa as well. Itchy and cribbing and ansty. He's best on simple chaff and pony nuts. I think fed can make a big difference as well. x


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## Delicious_D (4 January 2013)

Well you know about Delicia as you have me on facebook. 
She has been on/off lame for over a year and in august went lame and never came right! Canter has always been an issue but one day she flately refused to canter ever again! Instead she was bunny hoping, disuniting, rrearing, bucking etc etc. She was diagnoised via xrays and bone scans KS, SI disease and a small issue in her pastern, fetlock and both hind suspensories. 

I wouldnt jumpt to conclusions about your horse haivng KS, KS can really only be properly diagnosed through xray etc, my hors ehad similar symptoms to your's when she had ulcers.

I would rule out other issues first, i.e. saddle, teeth, muscular, ulcers etc etc. If you are relaly worried only a vet can really advise you


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## Perfect_Pirouette (4 January 2013)

Twiglet said:



			I think the issue is also with the fact the reactions you're seeing can be attributed to lots of different things - most pain related, but also behavioural - they're classic 'I don't like this' evasion reactions. So whether it be kissing spines, ulcers, sore muscles or winter grumpiness, it's difficult to pinpoint anything without investigation.

Have you had a full vet work up done? For the cost of a call out and a consultation I'd be discussing the lot with the vet, mentioning where the issues occur and when they started.  

You say you've changed his feed recently - why and what to? My old TB had a reaction to Alfa A/alfalfa that you could have said looked like he had kissing spines, he was so extreme....didn't want to be groomed, girthed, ridden or rugged - his skin was so sensitive you would have thought he was in lots of pain.
		
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Yes, nail on head I suppose. It could be anything.

I changed him to P+P and Honeychop with garlic.


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## wench (4 January 2013)

Book a vet.

You could try simple things like totally changing his diet to nothing but hay/haylage and a balancer to try this, and try getting your instructor on him, but I wouldn't be wasting my money on a saddler and physio without the vet looking at the horse first.

Physio+saddler is going to cost £100+ which is a good part towards going to the vets bill.


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## Perfect_Pirouette (4 January 2013)

Firewell said:



			Before changing the saddle I was on the brink of going down the full work up route and I'm so glad I didn't and that I started with the simple things first. I also had a back person out and they specifically found tension behind the top of his shoulders and the base of the wither, bascially where the old saddle was putting pressure. 
I also know that I am slightly wonky myself and I tend to sit to the right a bit on my horse, of course that makes him a little stiff on one rein.
I do sometimes think that if you fully assessed every horse with bone scans and work ups and everything you are bound to find *something*, just like we would with us, we all have our aches and pains and weak spots! However if the horse can cope, it's not in pain and it doesn't affect their work I often think it's best to leave well alone. I'd always start with the simple things first like the saddle or teeth or schooling/rider and then if they don't work then explore further .
Good luck.
		
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Yes, physio found pain with him around top of shoulders and base of wither and I noticed last night my saddle is a bit too wide now. I have booked in to have saddler out.

I agree, every horse will have something upon investigation and sometimes it just isn't worth it!


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## Perfect_Pirouette (4 January 2013)

wench said:



			Book a vet.

You could try simple things like totally changing his diet to nothing but hay/haylage and a balancer to try this, and try getting your instructor on him, but I wouldn't be wasting my money on a saddler and physio without the vet looking at the horse first.

Physio+saddler is going to cost £100+ which is a good part towards going to the vets bill.
		
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Well my yard has a free monthly call out day so I will see when the next one is and get him booked in.


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## wench (4 January 2013)

That's a good way of saving money. However I would ensure you stipulate to the vets what you think may be wrong... as there's no point paying £30/40 for the vet just to look at the horse being trotted up and them saying yep I think its x and I will come back tomorrow with the correct equipment = another examination fee and call out charge.


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## Perfect_Pirouette (4 January 2013)

Yeh, thought that. Am going to ring beforehand and just inform them. 

Call out fees are about £70 so if I can save at least that I will as we may get vet out and there ISN'T anything wrong and with osteo, new girth and fleecy cover (thought it may help when he started being fidgety a few weeks ago) this is all adding up already.


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## wench (4 January 2013)

£70 - thats expensive - are they a fair distance from you?

ETS - I thought a new girth had solved my horses "girthiness", but it was only temporary.

Has anyone got a saddle you can borrow to try out if it is yours causing the problem. I threw a £1000 down the drain purchasing the wrong one for mine? Who is your saddler btw? Just wondering if it may be the one that I used?


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## Delicious_D (4 January 2013)

wench said:



			That's a good way of saving money. However I would ensure you stipulate to the vets what you think may be wrong... as there's no point paying £30/40 for the vet just to look at the horse being trotted up and them saying yep I think its x and I will come back tomorrow with the correct equipment = another examination fee and call out charge.
		
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This, especially if the horse isnt presenting with the symptoms all the time, otherwise you know they will be fine when the vets there


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## humblepie (4 January 2013)

Haven't read all the posts since mine but in response to your query - my horse is mid teens ex racehorse, been a top show horse since, but just didn't seem himself this summer.   He was sound though but there was just a nagging feeling not all was well.  Then he reached the point where he was going disunited in canter and going choppy even on the lunge which was when I decided something was definitely wrong and the vet came out.


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## Girlracer (4 January 2013)

I have a 7yo that was diagnosed in May. 

First signs were a reluctance to go forward, but only occasionally. And girthiness. 

Graduated to spinning and dropping his shoulder nearly everytime I rode, he really became quite dangerous. 

He then started getting really short and stuffy in his stride, bucking on the lunge, and cold backed. Had an osteopath that said he had tightness through his back that she couldn't see a reason for. He has 4 kissing spines in that area (at the back of the saddle), had steroid injections and a Tildren drip and has been back in full work since September. 

To be honest KS symptoms vary greatly and not only that but they could mean a lot of things. The prognosis for most KS cases is pretty good, but make sure you're well insured.


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## Perfect_Pirouette (4 January 2013)

Well, spoke to old owner earlier on the phone. She said he has always been cold backed which is slightly worse in the winter and used to tuck him bum under etc when tacking up (she had him 6 years!) She said never really been iffy with girth in winter though.

I have a Q. IF it was KS, would he be okay on the lunge in walk, trot and canter? Like if he struggles to get correct lead ridden but not on the lunge? If it was KS would he not be able to canter on lunge either?


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## Delicious_D (4 January 2013)

Delicia was getting worse 

You cannot diagnose KS without xrays etc! Stop worrying,...and if you are worried, see a vet


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## Firewell (4 January 2013)

I forgot to say my mums old horse had kissing spines. First of all she was cold backed but she had been cold backed since she was a youngster. Then she dropped off her performance and couldn't do the combintaions out evening at Novice level and started stopping which was unlike her as she was brave. Then she started bucking... Not all the time but when she did they were BIG. I knew her for about 5 years and those symptoms progressed over that time period. It go to the point where she bucked my mum off a couple of time.
She was fine being lunged and worked in hand though and her flatwork was good in between the cold backed bits and the bucking.
Turns out she had 7 DSP's touching under her saddle poor love. Hers was too serious to operate on and she was retired. She would have been in a lot of pain especially jumping
I do think the symptoms vary so much from horse to horse, our mare didn't shuffle or have problems striking off for canter and she was forwards she would just shoot off bucking every now an again.


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## Perfect_Pirouette (4 January 2013)

Secret_Santa said:



			Delicia was getting worse 

You cannot diagnose KS without xrays etc! Stop worrying,...and if you are worried, see a vet 

Click to expand...

I know, it's just a lot of the 'symptoms' if you like are adding up 



Firewell said:



			I forgot to say my mums old horse had kissing spines. First of all she was cold backed but she had been cold backed since she was a youngster. Then she dropped off her performance and couldn't do the combintaions out evening at Novice level and started stopping which was unlike her as she was brave. Then she started bucking... Not all the time but when she did they were BIG. I knew her for about 5 years and those symptoms progressed over that time period. It go to the point where she bucked my mum off a couple of time.
She was fine being lunged and worked in hand though and her flatwork was good in between the cold backed bits and the bucking.
Turns out she had 7 DSP's touching under her saddle poor love. Hers was too serious to operate on and she was retired. She would have been in a lot of pain especially jumping
I do think the symptoms vary so much from horse to horse, our mare didn't shuffle or have problems striking off for canter and she was forwards she would just shoot off bucking every now an again.
		
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Argh, trouble is you could be describing 50 out of thre 52 horses on our yard. Nearly all of them do something. Yes, it could be behaivoural but then it could also be something physical if they bothered to delve into it. Perhaps I am opening a can of worms, gah.

Okay, so will probably get shot down for this but he's my horse and I want to do what I think is best. I was talking to a lady down the yard tonight whose TB had suspected ulcers (never scoped though so not confirmed) she put him on a trial of Gastroaid and another gastric supplement. Within 2 weeks he was back to his normal self. This was 8 months ago and she took him off them a couple of months back and he's been fine ever since.

SO, tomorrow I am going to go buy some Gastroaid or similar and put him on a trial of that for a couple of weeks. He's only just had the osteo so I know he's okay and been done there. Saddler's coming to check saddle soon too. IF there's no improvement in 2 weeks after Gastroaid trial and saddle check then, at the end of the month when I actually have some MONEY I will get vet to x ray for KS. I just don't have a spare £250-£300 atm for that. Saddle check will be minimum as it's a yard visit so no call out fee and lady at yard said Gastroaid wasn't very expensive for a tub so I think that's worth going down first, for me anyway. If he's no better in a few weeks then I will have to shell out for vet and x rays but I don't want to think worst case scenario yet. (even though I already am!)


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## wench (5 January 2013)

Gastroaid will not cure ulcers. It may help reduce acid in the stomach.


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## CBAnglo (5 January 2013)

If he is insured you will need to report investigation to insurers and they should pay; you will only pay excess provided that there is something wrong with him (otherwise you pay the lot)
I have had my exracer for over 6 yrs and he didn't display any of those issues.  He has always been a bit tricky but he is a flighty spooky horse.  He also was very particular about who rode him.

He came in from the field one day slightly off.  
He then started to lose performance.  Got him investigate, 5 close spines, none impinging because I rode him very round but over time they would impinge so 3 removed.  Been 6 months since op and have another 2 mths to wait until I can put a saddle on him.  He has been boxrested the entire time due to muddy fields.  Can't wait until he can go out again (neither can he!)


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## Girlracer (5 January 2013)

Are you not insured? 

Because if you suspect something is up (KS wise) you need to inform your insurance company and if when x-rayed they do find something your insurance should pay.


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## Perfect_Pirouette (5 January 2013)

Yes I am insured but this is all just speculative at the moment. At the end of the month if he's still no better I will report suspected KS to insurers and get vet out.

My insurance excess is about £350 anyway which would probably be the cost of the xrays.


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## KEF (5 January 2013)

My young horse was suspected to have kissing spine. His back was checked by a very reputable chiropracter who was almost convinced. He was in the process of being backed at the time (was ridden bareback at that stage) and since the manipulation had no effect and he had previously had a short bute trial I opted to go straight for xray. I am pleased to report that he does not have KS. His trainer and the chiropracter were convinced so although he displayed a number of the symptoms and characteristics....he does not have it, so there is always hope and from the research I did at the time, it is by no means a problem that can't be treated.


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## TPO (5 January 2013)

My mare liked to buck, it was just her way and she was seen regularly by therapists and vet.

At one point I had to livery her in a different catchment area. On that yard the very experienced YO informed me that mare had obvious case of KS, worst she'd seen, all because she enjoyed bucking in the field and broncing me off! 

The yard vet came out and agreed with YO re KS plus said she had a spavin so was referred to vet hospital. The vet school gave her a clean bill of health with absolutely no KS. 

Ironically she was pts less than 3mths later with very advanced navicular; this was missed by three separate practices. At that point I didn't know about barefoot and believed/ trusted my practice when they said barefoot wouldn't work and there were no oot


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## TPO (5 January 2013)

Gah phone!!

They said her hoof balance was good and nothing could be done. Unfortunately now I realise her hoof balance wasn't good and there could have been options. 

That's by the by but my point is stop listening to other people; if you think there is a problem get a GOOD vet ( not always easy) and take it from there.

You do seem to post a bit about perceived problems while stating this horse is a bring on to sell. While forums are a useful resource you may find it bites you on the bum when it comes to selling. There are a few people on here who buy, bring on and sell but while they'll post questions their horses never have problems or issues  might be worth emulating.

Good luck with it all.


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## smac (5 January 2013)

Mine got diagnosed in Oct.

Physio has worked on him since July- just as part of his rehab from a leg fracture. 
But in work he was a lil sensitive to girth and stumbling alot. Struggled alittle to get top line on him but he hadnt been back in work that long. At first thought it was the weak leg, but then started with the other front leg. Metacam trial made no difference.

Vet watched him walk up and down poked and prodded his back. Said muscle wise all was fab, but to touch the spine mild reaction. Even setting up the xray machine she said she didnt think he was reactive enough for it to be kissing spine but she was willig to be proven wrong. 

Anyway she was speechless at the xrays, she couldnt believe he had shown no real discomfort or "symptoms" as his back was a mess. He is a GP dressage horse, old school bred/ traditonal KWPN as they used to be. Never showed a real problem. 

Half a dozen injections later and a couple in the hocks. 5 days grazing. 3weeks long reining and light "round and deep work" in hand. She came back and he looks different horse. No reaction when touch the back. Vet said she was "shocked" at the difference. We thought we would be lucky to hack him, then we are being told to crack on for next season. 
He has ulcers. these are managed v.easily by high fibre diet & keeping him in work.

You have a plan but I would keep it more simple. if he trots up sound on hard & soft circles then just keep him working, a mix of straight line hacking -hills! and lunging in a pessoa, over poles etc. all to build up his top line. (I have a bad back, if I dont keep up with Pilates and core strength it hurts a lot (slipped discs) same with them, let alone having to carry saddle and jockey.) He isnt eventing or competing high level, but him on full fibre diet. and see what your left with. 

Its so easy to sit here and "say" it but sometimes when your emotionally involved you panic over small things. Take a deep breath and write it all down and think about it logically. take fortnightly photos to see if he changes. Chances are if you panicing and tense, it is gonna make him tense when you bring saddle out etc. Maybe he is sick of school - haha and thats why he isnt keen on saddle?! 
Plus remember its cold, and damp, and windy and miserable. everythings soggy. Its not nice weather, everything always looks and feels yuk is in this weather.


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## harrietadams (5 January 2013)

My horse was diagnosed with kissing spines, following x-rays, after a rapid drop in performance at Weston Park in 2011. This is a horse who is a machine cross country, and he threw the towel in at about fence 8 and really didnt want to know. 

We managed to treat him over the following summer with steroid injections. However after the second lot of injections wore off, we bit the bullet and had him operated on. 

He had 8 fused vetebrae. The worst our vets have seen. Some horses are super sensitive to it , but Bruno is such a star that he carried on regardless until it got unbearable. 

Looking back on the five years of owning him, he has always been grumpy in the stable (we put it down to years on a racing yard), always been unhappy to be girthed up and prostested. He has always been happier taking off from fences far away, rather than using his back to jump. 

When the symptoms got worse, in the summer of 2012, he could not canter of the left leg without going disunited. He also felt crippled all round in trot with a marked shortening of the off fore on the left rein. 

If kissing spines is something that you find you have, i would, touch wood, recommend the surgery. He has been back in ridden work for a month, and has never felt better.

I jumped him for the first time today and he is finally prepared to get in close to fences and use his back to jump. I was amazed to tell the truth. 

Bit of an off the point post, but i hope the symptoms make sense!


**addition** - he found lateral work very difficult, though always tried, which i have put down to his over generous nature. As well as that his medium trot became non existant, having been excellent


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## harrietadams (5 January 2013)

It is also worth remembering that 15 out of 20 horses may scan positively for kissing spines. 

However only 1 of these is likely to have their performance affected by the condition. 

I guess I am trying to say - eliminate any other issues first, as even if xrays reveal kissing spines, they may not actually be causing your horse any specific issues.


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## Perfect_Pirouette (5 January 2013)

I know everyone is saying its not the end of the world if the horse has KS and no it probably wouldn't be. However I made the decision a couple of months ago to sell him fairly soon (as in next 6-7 months) as I have had him nearly a year now and quite honestly I just can't afford it anymore. I used to be okay but moved out a couple of months ago and am really struggling with rent, bills and horse. I have 3k of debt that needs to be paid off and I can only do that by selling really. So yes, if he does have it it is going to cause problems if I have to have him operated on as it will mean months and months and months of rest and then rehabilitation and bringing him back to work again. I know that is part of the risk when you have a horse but all my other horses have been 'to keep' from the offset and he hasn't and quite simply I don't know if I can afford it. No, scrap that I CAN'T afford it. I need to straighten out my finances and get debt free before the banks come knocking.


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## Perfect_Pirouette (5 January 2013)

I jumped him the other day and he was taking off so far away from the jumps  he struggles with left canter and sometimes goes disunited if he gets the wrong lead  all these things are adding up but I'm really trying to not put 2+2 together and get 5!


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## TarrSteps (5 January 2013)

No offence, but it sounds like the situation has progressed to the point where you will struggle to sell him, diagnosis or not. At least if you know what's up you can make an informed decision.

I am very conservative, at least by UK standards, and a big fan of doing as much as possible with management, riding etc. But sometimes horses need what they need, alas. And a conservative approach doesn't really go with selling - not disclosing a problem isn't an option, obviously, and it sounds like perhaps you've gone past the point where you could wilfully plead ignorance. 

Sorry, it sucks.   Can you at least get a second opinion on the horse from an experienced horseman you trust? An objective eye might pick up something less alarming in play, or suggest other options.


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## Gingerwitch (5 January 2013)

TBH - you could be writing of x thousands for the want of spending the £350 excess - I would honestly bite the bullet and get the vet - sod this waiting for a free zone day - the best vets dont usually attend on one of these anyways - its more for the routine injections etc.

I think you have been concerned for some time now - and if you are looking at the pts option - then you have just wasted another 2 or 3 months worth of costs.

Sorry to be blunt but both he and you need the vet - you more for your own sanity - and putting it off is not going to help your finances.

Good luck


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## xspiralx (5 January 2013)

TarrSteps said:



			No offence, but it sounds like the situation has progressed to the point where you will struggle to sell him, diagnosis or not. At least if you know what's up you can make an informed decision.

I am very conservative, at least by UK standards, and a big fan of doing as much as possible with management, riding etc. But sometimes horses need what they need, alas. And a conservative approach doesn't really go with selling - not disclosing a problem isn't an option, obviously, and it sounds like perhaps you've gone past the point where you could wilfully plead ignorance. 

Sorry, it sucks.   Can you at least get a second opinion on the horse from an experienced horseman you trust? An objective eye might pick up something less alarming in play, or suggest other options.
		
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This. You can wait and see and hope he improves, and if he does, then great. But if not, then you can't really sell him like this, and would have to disclose the issues to a potential buyer.

If it comes to it, can you not move home to your parents again for a while - in order to get him sorted and sold?


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## MegaBeast (6 January 2013)

What does your instructor think? I'm assuming he was a "project" as you bought him to sell on so imagine he came with issues?  You may be jumping to conclusions over what is actually a schooling issue that has escalated.  

I would first seek the opinion of a good,well respected instructor or horseperson and then if deemed necessary involve the vet.  It could well be a back or neck issue but make sure the obvious has been ruled out first.


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## Perfect_Pirouette (6 January 2013)

TarrSteps said:



			No offence, but it sounds like the situation has progressed to the point where you will struggle to sell him, diagnosis or not. At least if you know what's up you can make an informed decision.

I am very conservative, at least by UK standards, and a big fan of doing as much as possible with management, riding etc. But sometimes horses need what they need, alas. And a conservative approach doesn't really go with selling - not disclosing a problem isn't an option, obviously, and it sounds like perhaps you've gone past the point where you could wilfully plead ignorance. 

Sorry, it sucks.   Can you at least get a second opinion on the horse from an experienced horseman you trust? An objective eye might pick up something less alarming in play, or suggest other options.
		
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Can I just say that if there IS something wrong with this horse then there is no way I would try and sell him on. I just want to clarify that! I am honest as the day is long and there is NO WAY I would consider selling somebody a horse if I thought it had KS, or other and hadn't been treated. At the end of the day he's my horse and it's my problem.

Yes, to be fair I haven't had a lesson since he started being funny. I am going to book in for one next Sat I think and I'll ride him for half an hour and then get my trainer on him for the last half an hour and see what she thinks. As she hasn't given me a lesson since he started being funny (about a month now) it will be interesting  to see if she picks up on anything.


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## Perfect_Pirouette (6 January 2013)

xspiralx said:



			This. You can wait and see and hope he improves, and if he does, then great. But if not, then you can't really sell him like this, and would have to disclose the issues to a potential buyer.

If it comes to it, can you not move home to your parents again for a while - in order to get him sorted and sold?
		
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As above, I am NOT a dodgy person or seller and would NEVER sell a horse onto someone if it had known potential issues. 

IF he does have it and I do opt for surgery then yes, I will have to move back home, find cheap grass livery or cheap DIY livery for him somewhere, take his shoes off and just keep him as cheaply as possible and try to clear some debt.


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## Perfect_Pirouette (6 January 2013)

MegaBeast said:



			What does your instructor think? I'm assuming he was a "project" as you bought him to sell on so imagine he came with issues?  You may be jumping to conclusions over what is actually a schooling issue that has escalated.  

I would first seek the opinion of a good,well respected instructor or horseperson and then if deemed necessary involve the vet.  It could well be a back or neck issue but make sure the obvious has been ruled out first.
		
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Instructor hasn't seen him since he's started being funny as I haven't had a lesson now for over a month due to Christmas and being broke etc. I will book a lesson next week and see if she thinks.

He didn't really come with 'issues' as such. Old owner was scared to ride him and wasn't comfortable with him on the ground either. She loaned him to an equestrian college but he got expelled after a few months as student's couldn't cope with him.

He was very green in the school for a 12 yo as I think he'd mostly just hacked his whole life.

When I got him he was a very insecure, worried horse. Both ridden and on the ground. However, within 6 weeks with me he was a different horse (I hate saying thata s I sound like a right arrogant plonk I know) but he really was, farrier came to shoe him and said he'd shod him for 6 years and the time he first shod him for me was the best orange one had behaved in 6 years that he'd shod him. 

And after a while I realised that he was actually as safe as houses to ride!! He really is as genuine as they come. He just used to be  abit spooky and panick if someone got a bit unbalanced etc. However now he's chilled out, he's absolutely fine. 

His schooling has come on loads, he never used to be hacked on his own but really when I hack him it's mainly on his own. He was a bit spooky at first but now strides past anything (including Tigers prowling fence line's when I used to hack him past the local wildlife park and I'm not joking!!)

He really is a different horse to when I got him nearly a year ago.No offence to his last owner as she is lovely but he just needed a handler/owner/rider that wasn't nervous around him/on him as he really does get his confidence from his handler/rider.

He has even taught a couple of almost complete novicey friends of mine how to ride since I've had him, was an absolute star. Plodded along, didn't panic if they got a bit unbalanced etc. I only did all this when i'd had him about 4-5 months and realised what a complete little angel he was.

So a project yes, issues? Not really, just a horse that had no confidence in anyone or anything and being sent to a equestrian college where he had loads of complete novice riders/handlers riding/handling him everyday just made the poor boy even more insecure and nervous.


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## TarrSteps (6 January 2013)

No one has challenged your honesty or accused you of wanting to sell a horse without full disclosure. 

My point was only that, given you have said repeatedly that money is a significant part if the equation, a conservative approach - my preferred course - is perhaps not the most sensible. To be blunt, if you won't be able to sell, better to know. If there is a problem that can be sorted, sort it. If there is no problem, you can crack on with a clear conscience.

All that said, I think you're getting ahead of yourself. Get the horse back on his program, get your instructor's opinion, and go from there.


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## Delicious_D (6 January 2013)

The thing about KS is, if you xray x number of horses, there will be some showiung varying degrees, with delicia, yes she has KS, but its the old injury to her SI that causes the issue as under saddle she shortens her back and then the KS comes into play.

I have found she is relatively sound on the ground (still has better days then some but early days yet), but undersaddle she really is unridable.

Unfortunately for me, it looks like the tildren, shockwave and steroids havnt helped. BUT her issues are trauma related.

If your horse is displaying the symptoms you are, he isnt worth much anyway without a diagnois. Unfortunately a forum cannot diagnose the horse as we cannot see it, you need a vet really. Only a vet can give you an informed point of view to the severity of any issues. But as i have said before, KS it may not be, it sjust there are a lot of KS cases being spoken of lately, and so its on the tip of everyone's tongue/


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## Perfect_Pirouette (10 January 2013)

**Update** My horse is going to the vets tomorrow for full lameness work up and x rays for KS.

Please keep all your fingers crossed for him.


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## wench (13 January 2013)

Any news?


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## TPO (14 January 2013)

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=586423&page=5

There is a big thread in SB about it. Lame behind and suspected ulcers is short version.


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## Horsemad40 (14 March 2015)

Perfect_Pirouette said:



			I know I am probably being/getting stupidly paranoid but I can't help it.

Rode orange one last night for first time since Physio/Osteo on Mon. Now to be fair it was only the first time, however he was still REALLY unhappy to have saddle on/girth tightened.

It COULD just be remembered pain from before physio came as she did find a fair bit of soreness etc. However, I am starting to look ahead and think what if it's not? She echoed what I had been thinking re ulcers so if girthiness continues I will investigate the ulcer possibility. 

Someone said something to me last night that worried me about KS. They said they had a horse with it and described exactly how orange one is. They said it was only after horse got fitter and they started asking more of him (funny, exactly the same) and the first symptom was bad reaction to being tacked up/girth. 

So now I am panicking and paranoid about KS. Argh. I just want to go down today and tack him up and him be normal again 

Ridden wise last night he was A LOT better. Much more loose, swingy, relaxed and even in the contact so something must have been done right Mon. It's just this aversion to the girth now that needs to right itself.

So....for anyone that's had a horse with KS, what were the first signs? Don't worry I'm not going to self-diagnose my poor horse lol. I just want to explore every avenue of what it could be.
		
Click to expand...

I'm sorry to barge in on this thread, but I've just joined.  I do need some advice.  I recently sold a horse we'd had from 5 months old; sold at 7.  He was left to grow up, professionally broken in at 5.  Realised he was still growing so turned away for the minimum of another year; he was over this by 2-3 months when bought back, lightly into work.  Decided to sell him at 7 as just didn't have time to ride him with kids and work, plus my other horse and my health, prevented me from schooling him on.  He'd only done light hacking and some light schooling since being broken.  He was great to hack out and really loved hacking, ears always forward and striding out.  He was great for farrier (trimmed as kept barefoot), would come down lovely on the bit, was great to tack up and get on an. My friend rode him for me also and whilst in the school he'd come down onto the bit, track up beautifully and not have any problems, although only rode him whilst I was there. Thing is, due to my health, I only ever got on, off of something I'd used as a mounting block (bad legs and arthritis in bottom of back) when riding any of my horses and have been doing this for several years.  Several weeks after selling him, the lady got bucked off when she went to get on him.  She was badly bruised from landing on concrete yard, so she hadn't ridden him for about 6 weeks.  She got the vet out to check him out and she thought he had a stifle problem.  Anyway, last Monday, she said she had him x-rayed.  Shes come back to me with a vets diagnosis of kissing spine and old stifle injury.    What I can't get my head around is how this can be, when we have never had any indication from him at all.  Last time he saw the vet was when being broken in for a lump in his mouth, (turned out to be a tooth and went away without any problem, whilst still at yard being broken.  I don't understand how this can be when he's never shown any signs of it.  Gutted and heart-broken is an understatement.  I just wish she'd have had him vetted before she bought him.  He was open to any vetting.   x


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