# Dog owner being sued for £5m after rider was thrown from horse



## DirectorFury (16 May 2022)

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/dog-owner-sued-5m-after-23957804

Snippet of article:
"The owner of a West Highland terrier faces a £5 million claim from a rider who now has to use a wheelchair after the dog spooked his horse on a beach. Lourens Koetsier suffered a severe spinal injury after he was thrown while on a guided ride along the beach in Pembrokeshire, Wales, in 2018.

The 63-year-old financial adviser told the High Court in London that the accident occurred because the unleashed dog, called Max, ran under the horse. He said it frightened the horse, which bucked and threw him to the ground. Koetsier, who was on holiday in Wales with his wife, is suing for up to £5 million in a claim that alleges the dog’s owner, David Clifford Thomas, should have kept him on a lead.

Thomas, who told the court that he has owned Max since he was a puppy, has denied liability, saying that there is no reason to blame his “small, elderly and gentle” Westie for the accident. Thomas said there was no requirement for Max to be on a lead while on the beach as local bylaws allow owners to let their dogs run freely.

Documents filed at the court in London state that Koetsier, who is Dutch, is an experienced horseman, having owned a pony as a child and competed as an adult. He rode Dutch warmblood sport horses from when he was a teenager until his forties. On the day of the accident Koetsier had joined a ride arranged by Nolton Stables in Haverfordwest. The route took riders along the mile-long Druidston Haven beach.

Lawyers for Koetsier said that the riders spotted Thomas’s dog running off its lead on the sand and as they began a second canter Max ran barking towards the group from behind. Koetsier’s horse, Bonfire, was stationary when the small white dog went underneath him from behind, said Matthew Chapman QC, in written submissions.

“Bonfire reacted explosively to the presence of the dog,” Chapman said. The horse’s head went down “while he jumped from the ground and flung up his hind legs in a violent and propulsive buck”. The rider was “violently propelled out of the saddle, over Bonfire and on to the ground. The claimant landed on or about the top of his head and suffered catastrophic personal injury.”
"

The rider is also suing the riding stables.

The outcome of this case is going to be interesting. 

Personally, if I ever see a dog off lead on the beach I don't go any faster than a walk, but we still regularly have dogs come flying over barking and trying to get under/behind my horse. Luckily she's rock-solid with dogs and will circle to keep facing them but I've always worried about what would happen if she kicked out at a dog and injured it (am I liable?), if she kicked out at a dog and caught a human (I assume I'd be liable?), if a dog injures her (are the dog owners liable?), or if she flipped out and I was injured (my own risk, no one is liable?). It's also impossible to identify dog owners unless they swap details or unless you can follow them to their car as they leave, so even if the dog owner is liable you'd have a hell of a time getting them to actually pay. 

If I'm on the beach with my dog and I see horses I always put her back on the lead - I know she has no interest in them but the riders don't know that and I don't want her caught up in an accident if another dog goes for the horse and it bolts.


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## ester (16 May 2022)

I saw this at the weekend being in a DM reading household .
I find the defence that an out of control dog didn’t need to be on the lead an odd one tbh. But equally agree that I wouldn’t canter in the vicinity of loose dogs (though there has been the odd occasion one has picked up from a distance and we’ve had to go back to deliver it to its owner rather than take it the whole 5 miles with us).
Having a staffy hanging off the horses tails was probably the worst incident but even frank (who has form with dogs so not 100% trusted with them) didn’t try and kick it. 
You did get quite good at identifying likely problematic dog/owner combos. It did seem that most dog owners hadn’t really considered the amount of damage they might happen to their dog, which is weird as I’d have thought it quite obvious based on size alone.


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## Alibear (16 May 2022)

It is undoubtedly going to be an interesting case.  I'm guessing it's the first time this issue has been brought to court?  So possibly the outcome will set a precedent? If our horses escape or are even let out deliberately,  we as owners are liable for any damage they might do.  So I can see why perhaps the same should be the case for dog owners?   I say this, having had 2 pug puppies run up and under our horses out hacking a few weeks back. Thankfully horses coped and stood like a rock, but the owner didn't want to get close to the horses to catch his dogs!  He did in the end.  No words were said as we were all just focused on controlling the situation as best we could.    
That said, this could lead to dogs only being able to run off lead in designated/paid dog parks or their gardens. Is that better welfare for the dogs?  Then you get to cats


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## Amymay (16 May 2022)

See a horse, put it on a lead. It’s quite simple really.


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## Tracking_up (16 May 2022)

I assume one point is not that the dog needs to be on a lead, but that the dog is under control.  Obviously easier to demonstrate whilst on the lead.


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## Tiddlypom (16 May 2022)

Amymay said:



			See a horse, put it on a lead. It’s quite simple really.
		
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This.

He's also suing the riding stables. I can't see that they are at fault, any horse could have reacted the same way. The horse was stationary at the time, so the ride appears to have halted?

He's likely hedging his bets, though. He has sustained life changing injuries, so I don't blame him.


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## Ambers Echo (16 May 2022)

I have no issue with dogs off leads. But dogs should always be under control and have good recall. Katie and I were chased by a dog. We were in walk and it came bounding over from a fair way away barking furiously and jumped up at Amber. She is good with dogs but that was too much for even her and they both spun and ran. That same woman is still allowing her dog off the lead on the field where people often ride and it still chases horses. I totally see the owner as being liable on this instance and I hope the dog owner loses the case and it's a wake up call for owners who have no control over their animals. It's no better than allowing your dog to worry sheep.


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## Ambers Echo (16 May 2022)

ester said:



			It did seem that most dog owners hadn’t really considered the amount of damage they might happen to their dog, which is weird as I’d have thought it quite obvious based on size alone.
		
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 Amber and Lottie are in a field with a footpath running rthrough it.  I was turning out when a man said 'will your horses be ok if my dog runs up to them?' I said "the horses will be fine but they might kick out and kill your dog so I suggest you don't let it!" He seemed very surprised. Some people are very strange.


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## stangs (16 May 2022)

I don't expect dogs to be put on a leash around horses - if their owner knows that their dog has good recall around them. If they've got a bad history with horses or chasing vehicles/livestock in general, or if they've never met a horse, then I would think any sensible dog owner ought to leash it. Once it's leashed, I'm usually happy for owners to approach with their dog so it gets a calm introduction to horses and hopefully won't get so wound-up by them in the future.   

But it does surprise me how many insensible owners there are ought there. People that will let their dog chase your bike and bite at its wheels, or who think that horses pose no danger to dogs (the amount of times I've been reassured that "don't worry, he doesn't bite!" Yes, but she might kick...), or who'll happily let their dog chase deer. I'm sure they mean well but...


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## Pinkvboots (16 May 2022)

Amymay said:



			See a horse, put it on a lead. It’s quite simple really.
		
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I do this if I see horses and my dog is really used to horses and has a really good recall but I don't want to risk my dog or someone else or there horses getting hurt.

You just never know what could happen so I don't risk it.

I do think a lot of dog owners are very clueless when it comes to horses, they just don't see them as a danger to there dog.


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## TPO (16 May 2022)

The local vet walked their dogs off the lead and they were in thr field chasing in lamb ewes. Thankfully the farmer was there and no sheep were killed. He quite rightly read the riot act and reminded them that he is within his rights to shoot the dog and the fine is 40k for damage to stock. That was a small animal vet/dog owner and breeder so when they are that clueless and moronic what hope is there? 

My dogs recall is (so far!) reliable, he's around my horses all the time and he's walked past fields of lambs, sheep, cattle and calves as well as seeing hares, deer and a plethora of birds/ducks/geese. He has been easy to call back and "stop" in every situation so far. However I still put him on a lead to walk past livestock. It takes 2 seconds and just removes all chance for something to go wrong.

If the riding stables were awre of the dog I can understand why the rider is suing them. They should never have taken the group off in a canter and also they should have liability insurance. Certainly be easier to claim from them than an individual I would have thought?

Also a reminder for all horse owners to have their own public liability insurance.


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## Tarragon (16 May 2022)

I think I am hoping that he doesn't win his case. I think that where horses have to share their space with other members of the public, including places where there can be loose dogs. or children, or kite flying or whatever, then the horse owner, the dog owner, the parent and everyone, all need to be responsible for their actions. As a horse rider, I would be wary of going faster than a walk if I was aware of anything that might be a problem, and he was experienced horse rider. I think all involved in the incident share some responsibility for the accident; the dog owner should have had more control over the dog, the riding school could have seen the loose dog as a risk, the rider was apparently an experienced horse rider and could have made some different decisions based on the horse and the situation. I feel very sorry for all involved. Would a dog owner even have insurance to cover this sort of claim?


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## Amymay (16 May 2022)

The rider was stationary at the time, Tarragon.  I’m not sure what more he could have done to mitigate the situation.

I’m a dog owner. I absolutely claim my right for my dogs to be off lead in areas I deem to be safe.  However if I see a horse and rider, I put them on a lead.

God forbid my actions (or lack of them) could result in such a catastrophic injury to someone else. All for the sake of 10 mins on a lead….




			Would a dog owner even have insurance to cover this sort of claim?
		
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I do.


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## Schollym (16 May 2022)

Ambers Echo said:



			Amber and Lottie are in a field with a footpath running rthrough it.  I was turning out when a man said 'will your horses be ok if my dog runs up to them?' I said "the horses will be fine but they might kick out and kill your dog so I suggest you don't let it!" He seemed very surprised. Some people are very strange.
		
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My welsh mountain pony was spooked by a doberman that came rushing out on to the road as my husband walked her past in hand. The following week the dog did the same thing but the pony was ready for it and gave it both barrels, never saw the dog again.


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## scruffyponies (16 May 2022)

Frightening how many commenters on this story believed that a dog on a beach has an absolute right to be off-lead and the horse had no right to be there.  
We live in a an intolerant and myopic world, full of morons.


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## milliepops (16 May 2022)

Amymay said:



			The rider was stationary at the time, Tarragon.  I’m not sure what more he could have done to mitigate the situation.

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agreed. plus i think riding your own horse, you are in perhaps a better position to predict how it will behave so you can make a sort of informed decision about moving off, dismounting, etc.
 having paid for a hire horse and going on a guided ride, you're probably more included to (a) expect the horse to be familiar with that sort of event and (b) do what the ride leader suggests.  so, much as i hate blame culture, i actually understand why the stables would also potentially be responsible.


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## Tiddlypom (16 May 2022)

If a riding stables is deemed liable for an accident caused by an off lead dog belonging to a member of the public who is unconnected with them, then IMHO that will sound the death knell of escorted RS hacking on anywhere bar private land.


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## SEL (16 May 2022)

I've had two bad run-ins which could have ended up with me on the floor.

There's a cafe at Clent Hills in Worcs with a bridlepath running right by it. I was the back guide for a riding school hack on a pony as close to bombproof as you can get. A loose dog got on the bridlepath and was actually biting at the pony's legs. I felt the pony's anxiety rise as the dog continued to follow and various people from the cafe were trying to help (we had children on the ride who were getting upset), but none of them owned the dog and obviously its blood was up so it wasn't responding to strangers. The pony made contact twice. Finally the owner turned up and got an earful from one of the bystanders. I told her that the horse had made contact and all she said was 'well that'll teach him'. Walked off without an apology.

I used to ride over Cannock Chase all of the time and got chased by a large grey dog whilst out on my friend's welshie. The owner was obese and couldn't keep up with his dog and the welsh boy just kept spinning with his bum to it while I prayed I didn't come off (horse legs vs dog bite - wasn't sure what I was more worried about). Owner caught dog but then 20 mins or so later I found the ****** thing behind me again. 

If I'd been hurt in either of those situations I'd have tried taking the dog owner to court, except I have a sneaking suspicion that responsible, insured dog owners wouldn't have let their dog loose in the first place


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## Amymay (16 May 2022)

Tiddlypom said:



			If a riding stables is deemed liable for an accident caused by an off lead dog belonging to a member of the public who is unconnected with them, then IMHO that will sound the death knell of escorted RS hacking on anywhere bar private land.
		
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I agree. But I also understand the action being taken against them in terms of the injury sustained and the potential cost of care going forward for this man.


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## MiJodsR2BlinkinTite (16 May 2022)

Tarragon said:



			I think I am hoping that he doesn't win his case. I think that where horses have to share their space with other members of the public, including places where there can be loose dogs. or children, or kite flying or whatever, then the horse owner, the dog owner, the parent and everyone, all need to be responsible for their actions. As a horse rider, I would be wary of going faster than a walk if I was aware of anything that might be a problem, and he was experienced horse rider. I think all involved in the incident share some responsibility for the accident; the dog owner should have had more control over the dog, the riding school could have seen the loose dog as a risk, the rider was apparently an experienced horse rider and could have made some different decisions based on the horse and the situation. I feel very sorry for all involved. Would a dog owner even have insurance to cover this sort of claim?
		
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^^^ Tend to agree with this.

There was an awful case a few years back (before lockdown) on a beach fairly local to me where someone's dogs spooked a horse and the rider was thrown and quite badly injured.

Eventually the owner WAS traced, and they were given the requisite slap-over-the-wrist by the local Dog Warden, but to my knowledge the rider did not instigate legal proceedings.

I totally get it that the poor guy was badly injured and feels he is due some recompense because of his "life changing" injuries. However there is a part of me that is fearful of the future implications if he DOES win his case......

Just hoping the dog owner has insurance......... if he doesn't - and doesn't have the sort of assets that could/would cover the amount being claimed, then it won't be any sort of a "victory" will it, if at the end of the day the guy cannot pay??


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## DirectorFury (16 May 2022)

Tiddlypom said:



			If a riding stables is deemed liable for an accident caused by an off lead dog belonging to a member of the public who is unconnected with them, then IMHO that will sound the death knell of escorted RS hacking on anywhere bar private land.
		
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Definitely this, and it also has massive implications for individual horse owners. Say a dog attacks my horse and I fall off. The horse bolts onto a nearby road, pursued by the dog, and is hit by a car. The occupants of the car are seriously injured or killed.
Am I, as the owner of the horse and the person who lost control, liable for the damages to the car's occupants? Even though I wouldn't have lost control had an out-of-control dog not attacked my horse? 

This isn't entirely a thought experiment as something similar happened locally last summer. The car didn't hit the horse but only missed it by a matter of inches and it could've easily had a very different and very tragic outcome.


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## Amymay (16 May 2022)

It’s why we should all have 3rd party liability @DirectorFury


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## teapot (16 May 2022)

Short of bringing a ride to a halt and then perhaps asking riders to dismount I’m not sure what the riding school could actually be sued for? If they followed their own processes, made clients aware of hacking in public space risks etc. Though how robust anything clients sign actually is something I’ve always wondered…

The only way of guaranteeing no dogs/walkers/cyclists etc is only to offer hacking on private land with zero public access. Not many yards can offer that! But then what happens if a deer pops out? Dangerous spiral that…


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## ester (16 May 2022)

Amymay said:



			I agree. But I also understand the action being taken against them in terms of the injury sustained and the potential cost of care going forward for this man.
		
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Yes I think it’s pretty standard in this sort of case for all possible insurance covered parties to be taken to court wrt to funding future care.


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## DirectorFury (16 May 2022)

Amymay said:



			It’s why we should all have 3rd party liability @DirectorFury

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I agree, but I don't think the 3PL limit on a lot of policies would cover the payout for 4 seriously injured occupants of a car. A single claim where there are huge ongoing care needs could easily top £20m. I currently have BHS Gold which has a 3PL limit of £30mil but this has prompted me to look for something with a higher limit.


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## milliepops (16 May 2022)

this was a different scenario but this person was insured but only for part of the sum, and i believe they/the woman's family had to fund the rest of the compensation awarded personally. it stuck in my head as fairly local.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-south-east-wales-37875194


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## Fransurrey (16 May 2022)

Amymay said:



			See a horse, put it on a lead. It’s quite simple really.
		
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Unfortunately it seems more and more of dog owners are also 'simple'.

Only two days ago a dog was lucky to live, having run under my horse's belly. I'd seen it behind us on a narrow trail, having looked round only because up ahead I could hear a dog whistle. Horse gave an explosive buck which I thankfully sat, but it must have been close - he's normally rock solid, so he mustn't have seen it. When I eventually came across the owner she put her dog on a lead immediately and said the usual, "Sorry, I hadn't seen you - he's not sure about horses." She was out of view of the incident and I did tell her he'd had a very close call, but not sure if that sank in or not. It was a narrow twisty trail so she was unlikely to see horses further than a few feet away, so why she had a young energetic pooch off lead (and far away from her) is anyone's guess. I actually hope he wins against the dog owner, so it does set a precedent, as there are way too many incidents locally, now. I had to stop hacking my mare even before Covid because of it, as our area became one of those 'dog walker' hotspots, with 6 off lead at once.


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## canteron (16 May 2022)

Tarragon said:



			I think I am hoping that he doesn't win his case. I think that where horses have to share their space with other members of the public, including places where there can be loose dogs. or children, or kite flying or whatever, then the horse owner, the dog owner, the parent and everyone, all need to be responsible for their actions. As a horse rider, I would be wary of going faster than a walk if I was aware of anything that might be a problem, and he was experienced horse rider. I think all involved in the incident share some responsibility for the accident; the dog owner should have had more control over the dog, the riding school could have seen the loose dog as a risk, the rider was apparently an experienced horse rider and could have made some different decisions based on the horse and the situation. I feel very sorry for all involved. Would a dog owner even have insurance to cover this sort of claim?
		
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Yes, as it will be the horses, not the dogs, that are banned from the beach.


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## BallyRoanBaubles (16 May 2022)

A week or so ago a friend and I were riding on a bridle way when a loose collie dog ran up behind our horses ( I was leading and my friend behind) barking at the horses legs. Luckily the horses were rock solid and didnt move (we were only walking and came to a halt when the dog appeared). The owner was no where to be seen, so I called out 'call your dog please', owner finally appeared but took her 5 mins to get hold of the blooming thing by which point it had come round the front and was barking at my horse. 

We took a video of it barking at us just incase one of our horses kicked it. I dread to think what could have happened if the horses werent solid.


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## tatty_v (16 May 2022)

I’ll be interested in the outcome of this case too. We’ve noticed a big uptick in the number of off lead dogs around us when hacking - sometimes nearly a field away from their owners and clearly not under control. I wonder if a lot of inexperienced people bought puppies over lockdown and now we’re seeing the results.

We’ve also had an awful dog attack happen recently on a very well used bridleway, which has made me a lot more anxious when riding out.

This isn’t to take away from the vast majority of sensible dog owners who share the countryside perfectly well!


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## Moobli (16 May 2022)

It sounds like an unfortunate incident that could have been prevented if all parties had used a little common sense.  Dog owner should have put his dog on a lead until the horses had moved away, the ride leader should have observed loose dog and not led a canter until there was sufficient distance between them and the loose dog, or dog was on a lead.  I don’t agree with suing either the dog owner or the stables as riding horses carries a substantial risk that most who climb aboard are well aware of.  The outcome of the case will be interesting.


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## Amymay (16 May 2022)

canteron said:



			Yes, as it will be the horses, not the dogs, that are banned from the beach.
		
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Oh I feel sure that it would be dogs that would be banned.  There’s massive opposition to dogs on beaches generally.


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## Spiritedly (16 May 2022)

It's hard to tell from the article if they actually cantered near the dog and owner. The fact it says they spotted the loose dog and that 'as they started their second canter the dog ran at them from behind'  could mean they slowed to walk until passed the dog before taking up canter again and being chased and the fact the injured riders horse was stationary when the dog ran under means they must have then halted? 

I am lucky enough to have a beach within hacking distance and always make a point of walking passed people on foot and dogs and if I see a loose dog I stop and ask the owners to call the dog to them but I have still had dogs chase after me....one chased after me four times and the owners still didn't put it on the lead each time they collected it!

As riders we have to accept we participate  in a dangerous sport and accidents can happen and we should do what we can to minimise the risk but part of me hopes the rider wins his case as a warning to other dog owners that they could be prosecuted if their dog causes injury to a horse rider.


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## The Fuzzy Furry (16 May 2022)

stangs said:



			I don't expect dogs to be put on a leash around horses
		
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I do.

Where I ride daily has codes of conduct for all users.
The bare essentials are for riders to walk past other users,
Dog walkers to put dogs on leads when meeting horses, cyclists and runners, also on leads in the ground nesting areas
Runners and cyclists to slow down to a walk speed past horses and dogs
Plus a few more minor things ref dog poo, parking, fires etc

it works on the whole, that is till fido's mummy calls out that he is fine with horses and then he nips round to bite a rear leg or chases from a distance..... and he has never done that before.....

On the main car parks it has on the notice boards the act about dogs out of control in public places. Then mentions that a dog is not under full control unless it is on a lead.


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## dreamcometrue (16 May 2022)

My pony did kick a dog.  It was a border collie off lead.  I knew what was going to happen because it approached us on the bridleway in a stalking position, eyes fixed and head low.  I turned my pony to face the wall so she wouldn’t bolt as the only direction was towards a main road.  The dog arrived and went for her.  Snapping and biting round her legs and belly.  She was so good and patient even though she was petrified.  Then it stated swinging on her tail and she had enough.  She booted it and it flew!  In an arc and landed 10 feet away in the centre of a very large puddle.  It was still and crumpled, either dead or out cold.  
I was horrified and got off and the owner and I lifted it out of the puddle and got it standing albeit wrecked.  Head down wobbly and just not right.  I told him to take it to a vet but he said it wasn’t his, he was walking it for a friend !!  He said he’d carry on with his walk as he had two other border collies with him on leads.

Whenever I see an off lead dog with a dithering owner I tell them 
loudly to keep their dog away as she might kick it and it might get badly injured/die!

I reported this on the BHS website along with other incidents that have happened.


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## ycbm (16 May 2022)

I hope he wins.  It will make life safer around dogs wherever they are.  I've been chased along the road by an out of control  working border collie out with a shepherd, it's no joke.

I have no objection to dogs off lead,  only dogs out of control.  
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## SEL (16 May 2022)

I think the stables closed down last year as a result of covid if I've picked up the right ones from the article. 

Their barrister is saying the horses were all used to dogs and the rider knew the risks associated with riding a horse 

I'm not sure the dog owners defence of 'my dog is allowed off a lead there' over rides the need to have it under control


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## Flyermc (16 May 2022)

The fault lies with the riding stables, they should have had a sufficient risk assessment that included reasonable foreseeable risk, which n this case should have included the risk of loose dogs on the beach.

The group should not have cantered so close to an off the lead dog. The lead rider should have asked the owner to place the dog on a lead or should have halted the ride until it was sufficiently further away. 

the owner of the dog, should have had more control, however that doesnt appear to be a requirement on that beach (unless there is a sign stating this?)


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## asmp (16 May 2022)

dreamcometrue said:



			My pony did kick a dog.  It was a border collie off lead.  I knew what was going to happen because it approached us on the bridleway in a stalking position, eyes fixed and head low.  I turned my pony to face the wall so she wouldn’t bolt as the only direction was towards a main road.  The dog arrived and went for her.  Snapping and biting round her legs and belly.  She was so good and patient even though she was petrified.  Then it stated swinging on her tail and she had enough.  She booted it and it flew!  In an arc and landed 10 feet away in the centre of a very large puddle.  It was still and crumpled, either dead or out cold. 
I was horrified and got off and the owner and I lifted it out of the puddle and got it standing albeit wrecked.  Head down wobbly and just not right.  I told him to take it to a vet but he said it wasn’t his, he was walking it for a friend !!  He said he’d carry on with his walk as he had two other border collies with him on leads.

Whenever I see an off lead dog with a dithering owner I tell them
loudly to keep their dog away as she might kick it and it might get badly injured/die!

I reported this on the BHS website along with other incidents that have happened.
		
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I know my horse would kick a dog if it too close so I would also shout at an owner to keep their dog away or risk injury.


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## SaddlePsych'D (16 May 2022)

Flyermc said:



			The fault lies with the riding stables, they should have had a sufficient risk assessment that included reasonable foreseeable risk, which n this case should have included the risk of loose dogs on the beach.

The group should not have cantered so close to an off the lead dog. The lead rider should have asked the owner to place the dog on a lead or should have halted the ride until it was sufficiently further away.

the owner of the dog, should have had more control, however that doesnt appear to be a requirement on that beach (unless there is a sign stating this?)
		
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Dogs should always be under control in public. Being allowed off lead in certain spaces doesn't negate that and I think dog owners need a wake up call to this.


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## ycbm (16 May 2022)

Flyermc said:



			the owner of the dog, should have had more control, however that doesnt appear to be a requirement on that beach (unless there is a sign stating this?)
		
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There is ALWAYS a requirement for dogs to be under control in English law, no matter where the dog is, even in a private garden. 

If the dog had killed a child would that have been all right on that beach?

No,  of course not.  The law requires owners to be in control of their dogs.
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## Ambers Echo (16 May 2022)

Flyermc said:



			The fault lies with the riding stables, they should have had a sufficient risk assessment that included reasonable foreseeable risk, which n this case should have included the risk of loose dogs on the beach.

The group should not have cantered so close to an off the lead dog. The lead rider should have asked the owner to place the dog on a lead or should have halted the ride until it was sufficiently further away.

the owner of the dog, should have had more control, however that doesnt appear to be a requirement on that beach (unless there is a sign stating this?)
		
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 The triumph of bits of paper and notices over common sense and courtesy? So a dog can be out of contol and chasing horses because there was no signs saying 'dogs must be on leads'. I LOATHE sign-culture. The idea that because poeople are idiots, everyone has to obey a much stricter rule and the beach vibe has to be ruined by signs everywhere.

Then the H&S culture: we do not know the ins and outs of the incident but having a written risk assessment (which I am sure they DID have) does not proect you from the actions of idiots unless the risk assesmsent is so restrictive thsat nothing is ever permitted anhymore.


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## SaddlePsych'D (16 May 2022)

There are signs for some of our local spaces saying on lead only for the summer for the ground nesting birds. I got all excited as our walks are on lead only anyway and thought we'd have a haven for not getting unwanted attention from other dogs. I was very wrong!


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## SilverLinings (16 May 2022)

The explosion in novice dog owners really does seem to have resulted in a massive increase in out of control dogs in public spaces, causing problems with riders, other walkers, traffic and cyclists as well as other (under control) dogs. There appears to be a large number of dog owners who are unaware of their legal responsibilities, and many seem to think that their dog's (or child's!) behaviour is nothing to do with them. More than once in the last few years I have had another dog owner (with an unruly dog in tow) ask me how I managed to buy a 'well behaved one'- it didn't occur to them that it was a result of hard work spent training.

I think it is really sad how many people don't seem to care about their dogs- letting your dog be kicked by a horse to 'teach him a lesson' rather than the owner putting an effort into some training is awful. Ditto people who let their dogs wander around near roads (or put them on the traffic side on a flexi lead when walking at the side of a road) or cycle paths, or allow them to initiate fights with other dogs.

I think bringing back the dog license with a requirement to have the license number on the collar might increase the possibility of identifying the owners of dogs behaving badly, and hopefully the cost and effort might deter some of the impulse purchasing of puppies.

The general antisocial behaviour combined with the tragic stories of dog attacks on children recently means that I think we really need a national public information campaign highlighting the legal requirement for dog owners to keep their dogs under control. It should feature a variety of scenarios and explain clearly what 'under control' means (i.e. if your dog has no recall then it should always be on a lead in public/open spaces). It should also point out the legal (fines, being sued) and material consequences (i.e. dog can be killed when kicked by a horse, destroyed if worrying stock, etc) of not doing so.


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## scruffyponies (16 May 2022)

The scruffies are beyond dog-tolerant.  They're fantastic.  However I can tell you from 400yds whether a dog owner 1)has no need to put the dog on the lead or 2)isn't going to bother trying.
These are 2 very different types of owner, and the second type are a nightmare.
The 2nd type are the ones who seem to think riders are in the wrong for even being there, and are frequently abusive even if we say nothing about the dog under our legs, whereas the 1st type, with dog immediateliy recalled and sitting nicely on command, will never take their eye off their obedient mut as they say good morning, just in case it chooses today to disobey for the first time.

Typical dog 1) spaniel or labrador (working breed).  Typical dog 2) shitsu or similar twat-y-poo.
There is a third type.  Owner is similar to 1, but in posession of a terrier, which is immediately wrestled to the floor and put on a lead, or placed in a secure head-lock at chest height.  Owner nevertheless looks nervous and apologetic


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## sasquatch (16 May 2022)

Even if the dog was allowed to be off-leash, the dog should still be under control and if you can’t call your dog to you and it comes back instantly it shouldn’t be off the lead anywhere other than a dog park or your own property.

Removing the horses from the scenario, if a child is playing and a dog runs up on a beach and attacks the dogs owner is at fault, not the child. If a dog chases, attacks and harms another dog, the owner is at fault.

The horse was apparently stood still, so it sounds as if they spotted the dog, went past, had a second canter, saw the dog approaching and stopped and the dog still attacked. Whilst horses can buck and be unpredictable, if the dog had been under control on or off lead, it wouldn’t have chased and attacked the horse.

It doesn’t matter the age and the breed of the dog, because had the dog been under control the incident would never have happened and the rider wouldn’t have received life changing injuries. The fact it was apparently an old and slow Westie makes me think the horses probably were stopped for it to have been able to catch up to the horses

I don’t think the sum is that unreasonable if you consider things like loss of earnings, home modifications, vehicle modifications etc. 

I don’t think this was the fault of the riding school, and most riding schools do expect you to sign a waiver accepting horse riding is a risk sport. 

I’ve had to deal with dogs on the beach, one owner had no recall over his puppy and it came running to my horse (I was dismounted at the time anyway) and was under him and put his paws on his chest. He’s lucky my horse didn’t mind dogs, but what if the dog had come running and chasing a child instead with no recall?

Whenever I’ve been hacking, most dog owners will hold their dogs or put them back on leash until I’ve passed them, or I’ll find a place to stand in so they can pass safely. I’ve had a few people who’ve been a little bit slow to realise they need to make sure they have control of their dog, but thankfully no accidents or incidents.


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## NightStock (16 May 2022)

I used to ride on a beach almost daily, dogs haring over was a common occurance and sometimes dogs can come running over from quite a distance away. My procedure was always the same, come to a halt and face the dog, then wait for the owner to catch up, while dog barked and circled, my horse was excellent.

If an owner didn't come over (sometimes they would just sit there) I would ride out to sea, that generally got their attention, or if the dog was just excited (not attacking) I would ride on and take the dog with me, again suddenly owner is interested. 

The only occasion my horse did get attacked was by a dachshund, it was with two big dogs who barked but didn't approach, I did my usual but the sausage dog kept coming and actually attached itself to her leg. She did everything she could to get it off but wouldn't kick out, bless her. (it almost certainly would have died) We managed to get it off, I would have moved off at speed away before it got close but couldn't due to not wanting the big dogs to chase!  

With this case, it's not clear how soon after the 2nd canter the dog approached but it does sound like they could have delayed that canter,  although possible they just didn't spot it? The dog owner should have put it on the lead if unsure but from my experience, dog owners always think they have more time than they do!


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## Ambers Echo (16 May 2022)

My dog is one of _those _breeds: labradoodle. But she is super obedient. She is rarely on a lead but I never assume she’ll behave so she is put in the down position whenever a horse, bike or on-lead dog is approaching and stays there till she’s released. Here she is waiting patiently while i lunge Lottie. She’s loose but she won’t move till she’s allowed. But id still not risk it with some else’s horse.


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## laura_nash (16 May 2022)

I used to work at Nolton years ago.  Loose dogs were always being a problem even then. 

We had a court case whilst I was there.  I can't remember all the details but I think the walkers accused the owner of assault after their dog chased him and got him thrown, he sued them for vets costs as the youngster he was riding jumped a gate and galloped home, thankfully no serious injuries and that was different as happened on land the stables owned.  

Most of the trekking ponies coped well with dogs, but they also bred IDxTB SJers and experienced riders would sometimes get to ride either the youngsters or barren mares, so he may have been on one of them.


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## Pearlsasinger (16 May 2022)

Tarragon said:



			Would a dog owner even have insurance to cover this sort of claim?
		
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Many do, we don't insure for vet bills but we do have PL insurance through Dogs Trust.   Regardless, the lack of insurance doesn't mean that you can't be sued, just that you are liable to find the money if the court finds against you.


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## ester (16 May 2022)

The most frequent cry heard on the beach was ‘it’s a rescue, we’ve not had it long’….


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## Shilasdair (16 May 2022)

I hope the rider wins.
I'm totally sick of entitled dog owners who think their dog can chase sheep, aggress at people and other dogs, bark and chase horses.
I've never quite forgotten meeting a lady walking two labs loose on a footpath who shouted at me 'Watch out - they bite!'     If your dog has less than 100% perfect recall, or might be a danger to people or animals, keep it on a lead.

ETA: And I speak as someone who is VERY fond of my Stepdog...but not at the expense of other people.


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## SEL (16 May 2022)

ester said:



			The most frequent cry heard on the beach was ‘it’s a rescue, we’ve not had it long’….
		
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And it doesn't even occur to them that's a great reason for keeping it on a lead 🙄 We had a few run off during lockdown and the "lost dog" posters were nearly all new to the area who had been let off the lead in open fields.


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## oldie48 (16 May 2022)

As a dog and a horse owner, I've tried to see it from both points of view. I always put my dog on a lead around horses but I take him on beaches quite frequently and if the wind is blowing in the wrong direction, I'm not confident he'd come back if called as he wouldn't hear me. Just a thought though. I got bucked off a hired horse hacking across Exmoor. I'd ridden him several times before and he was a safe forward responsive ride called Thruster, name gives you a clue of what he'd done in a previous life. We were on a day ride, just four of us and I was last cantering along a track, walkers suddenly appeared from nowhere and I pulled him up, the other three horses also pulled up but were some several metres a head of me. He bucked me off because that was where he was used to cantering, I'd stopped him and he was used to being with the other horses. These horses enjoy a good canter in a group, it gets their blood up! Luckily I was sore but otherwise OK. tbh I doubt he'd have turned a hair at a dog chasing him or getting under his feet. I've only read the fairly brief account but my understanding is that the rest of the ride continued on their second canter and I would imagine loose dogs are a pretty common occurrence on beach rides, my money would be on the horse got upset because he was separated from his pals and denied his usual blast on the beach.


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## Burnerbee (16 May 2022)

If we see a horse we put our dog on her lead and wait until the horse has disappeared before letting her off again. 

But in this situation, well I call that very bad luck indeed, but can’t see anyone is at fault.


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## Boulty (16 May 2022)

Will be interesting to see what the outcome is.  Personally I wouldn't do fast work near an off lead dog even if that dog was to heel & totally listening to their owner.  It's a lot to ask of a non professionally trained dog to ignore a large, exciting flight animal departing at speed!  I consider it good manners to have your dog under control around horses & if said dog finds horses very exciting it really should be on lead. I don't mind passing off lead dogs at walk if they clearly find the horse utterly boring & are totally ignoring it's existence or are at heel / sit / down close to their owner. I don't mind being barked / growled at by on lead dogs as long as the owner is trying.  

I absolutely would not trust my dog off lead around horses (apart from possibly my own as he sometimes seems to think he is part dog) as his desire to chase everything that moves fast is too strong.  He has never shown a desire to chase a horse but then he's not been given the opportunity. 

Fuzzball is very dog savvy & very tolerant of excited, silly dogs although he's also very capable of telling the farm collies off if they start getting too daft (think head flinging & sort of Spanish walk) so get the feeling anything agressive may risk being flattened (kicking isn't his style but bulldozing absolutely is!)


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## scruffyponies (16 May 2022)

Oldie48 makes a good point.  Even quiet ponies can be provoked into quite some theatrics when held back from a group gallop.  Very possible an experienced rider would have tried to hold the horse in the presence of a loose dog.


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## Amymay (16 May 2022)

the owner of the dog, should have had more control, however that doesnt appear to be a requirement on that beach (unless there is a sign stating this?)
		
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Do you really need a sign reminding you of the law? @Flyermc


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## teapot (16 May 2022)

Flyermc said:



			The fault lies with the riding stables, they should have had a sufficient risk assessment that included reasonable foreseeable risk, which n this case should have included the risk of loose dogs on the beach.

The group should not have cantered so close to an off the lead dog. The lead rider should have asked the owner to place the dog on a lead or should have halted the ride until it was sufficiently further away.

the owner of the dog, should have had more control, however that doesnt appear to be a requirement on that beach (unless there is a sign stating this?)
		
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Really?!


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## Cloball (16 May 2022)

SEL said:



			And it doesn't even occur to them that's a great reason for keeping it on a lead 🙄 We had a few run off during lockdown and the "lost dog" posters were nearly all new to the area who had been let off the lead in open fields.
		
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I 'wrestled' a chihuahua to rescue it from being run over as the walker (not owner) thought it was a good idea to let it off to lead to 'play' on a beach with a lot going on that has a busy road running along it. The poor thing got overwhelmed had no recall and was playing chicken with cars. It baffles me that people seem to think it's their dogs right to be off the lead to 'play' regardless of its own safety. I'm sure these people love their fur babies but have no ability to risk assess a situation. (Or don't wish to actually engage with the dog and want someone else to tire it out for them). I do not understand why people don't just put them on leads!?


Amymay said:



			Do you really need a sign reminding you of the law? @Flyermc

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Maybe😏 I'm convinced by the way people drive few people actually understand a lot of the laws which effect them daily.


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## DirectorFury (16 May 2022)

oldie48 said:



			As a dog and a horse owner, I've tried to see it from both points of view. I always put my dog on a lead around horses but I take him on beaches quite frequently and if the wind is blowing in the wrong direction, I'm not confident he'd come back if called as he wouldn't hear me. Just a thought though. I got bucked off a hired horse hacking across Exmoor. I'd ridden him several times before and he was a safe forward responsive ride called Thruster, name gives you a clue of what he'd done in a previous life. We were on a day ride, just four of us and I was last cantering along a track, walkers suddenly appeared from nowhere and I pulled him up, the other three horses also pulled up but were some several metres a head of me. He bucked me off because that was where he was used to cantering, I'd stopped him and he was used to being with the other horses. These horses enjoy a good canter in a group, it gets their blood up! Luckily I was sore but otherwise OK. tbh I doubt he'd have turned a hair at a dog chasing him or getting under his feet. I've only read the fairly brief account but my understanding is that the rest of the ride continued on their second canter and I would imagine loose dogs are a pretty common occurrence on beach rides, my money would be on the horse got upset because he was separated from his pals and denied his usual blast on the beach.
		
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I read the situation as they'd seen the loose dog, had a canter with the dog chasing them, had stopped/finished the canter, and then the dog caught up and went under the horse. If the rider held the horse back as the group cantered off then I'm surprised they brought the case at all, though I suppose stranger things have happened! Hopefully there will be some reporting from the court.

Edit: From the DM -
"He says Max had shown initially only a 'mild interest' in the horses that day and he only ran after them when they cantered a second time.

'Perhaps because the horses had passed at speed, perhaps out of curiosity or perhaps out of a sense of fun, Max turned and ran towards the group of horses who had just passed him,' says Mr Arentsen.

He adds: 'The accident occurred because the group of horses stopped, having cantered past Max, and because the claimant lost control of his horse and lost his seat upon the same.'"
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...ing-dog-owner-5m-suffering-spinal-injury.html

It sounds like they passed and stopped quite close to the dog.


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## Clodagh (16 May 2022)

I must admit I wouldn’t put mine on a lead but they really are always under 100% control in public.
I hope the rider wins. People need to think and if a financial scare helps wake them up then good. 
If my dog caused an RTA I’d be liable (SFAIAA) so this is no different. Either train or leash. 
Insurance is often covered by your household insurance.


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## criso (16 May 2022)

DirectorFury said:



			I read the situation as they'd seen the loose dog, had a canter with the dog chasing them, had stopped/finished the canter, and then the dog caught up and went under the horse. If the rider held the horse back as the group cantered off then I'm surprised they brought the case at all, though I suppose stranger things have happened! Hopefully there will be some reporting from the court.

Edit: From the DM -
"He says Max had shown initially only a 'mild interest' in the horses that day and he only ran after them when they cantered a second time.

'Perhaps because the horses had passed at speed, perhaps out of curiosity or perhaps out of a sense of fun, Max turned and ran towards the group of horses who had just passed him,' says Mr Arentsen.

He adds: 'The accident occurred because the group of horses stopped, having cantered past Max, and because the claimant lost control of his horse and lost his seat upon the same.'"
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...ing-dog-owner-5m-suffering-spinal-injury.html

It sounds like they passed and stopped quite close to the dog.
		
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So they are trying to say the riders caused the accident by stopping.  If they'd carried on cantering, no doubt they could have been blamed for not stopping. 

If I was cantering, trotting or even walking and a dog started chasing I would pull up.  Partly so as not encourage the chasing and to give the owner a chance to get hold of the dog.  Also dog less likely to get stepped on.


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## SilverLinings (16 May 2022)

Surely as the dog ran after the horse and got that close it was not 'under control in a public place' so the owner should be liable? You (one) shouldn't let your dog chase and harass anyone/animal whether you think they will/won't be scared/like it, so ignorance of how a horse may react couldn't be used as an excuse. I don't understand why a) someone would risk an injury to another person that could be easily avoided or b) risk their dog being trodden on or kicked by a horse. 

If the dog had run after a person and knocked them over resulting in a broken neck (or other injury) then the owner would be liable.

Saying that the dog had only shown 'mild interest' in the horses that day implies that either the dog usually reacts or owner has never seen how the dog behaves around horses before, both of which would be common sense reasons to put the dog on a lead. If the dog's recall was solid then the owner could have stopped it as soon as it started heading for the horses (if the owner was watching).

I would have thought that from a legal POV it is irrelevant whether the horses were stationary or cantering*, as either way if the dog was under control/on a lead it would have left them alone. Dogs aren't let off after chasing livestock just because the sheep started running so the dog 'couldn't help themselves'. Equally an attack on a child wouldn't be seen to be less of the dogs fault if the child was running away at the time.

_* In reality I do agree with others who have pointed out that it would generally be safer to keep a horse standing still around a loose dog as fleeing encourages the dog to chase._


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## Wishfilly (16 May 2022)

Not that long ago, a friend's horse was bitten by a dog whilst she was riding on a beach. Her horse kicked out and the owners apparently started talking about suing her for vets' bills. 

There does seem to be a rise in idiot dog owners. I turned back on a walk last week as there was a dog walker in the next field seemingly encouraging his dog to play with the young cattle. No thanks! 

It sounds tricky to know what actually happened on the ride, but the dog clearly wasn't under control. I think it's really difficult when you take rides out- because also people will feel they haven't got their money's worth if they don't get a canter because of e.g. dog walkers, and you're making constant split second judgements, with people who haven't always been fully honest about their own ability. You'd be surprised at the number of people who will e.g. put down they are an experienced rider- but haven't been on a hack before, and don't tell you that until they are up on the horse!

I imagine just the threat of being sued will make a lot of riding schools more risk averse. I really hope he doesn't win his claim against the riding school- because I do think it will really limit the activities of riding schools and reduce the ability of people to learn to ride out safely (and for those without horses to enjoy hacking in the countryside). I used to work for a riding school that did have their own land for hacks, and it was amazing, although not totally hazard free due to pheasants and dear! But solely sticking to your own land is limiting, as well, and it's important (in my opinion) that people get the chance to e.g. ride on roads and learn how to manage traffic etc, as well as being able to hack in a more controlled environment.

I have to say I feel that _some _dog owners need a bit of a reminder that they can't just allow their dogs to do as they like consequence free!


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## Miss_Millie (16 May 2022)

Last year I got attacked by off-lead dogs twice. One was a working farm dog and the other was a mastiff type. Both times I was just walking along, minding my own business. Adding a horse into the mix just makes things 100x more risky and disastrous. I feel for the injured man and I think the dog owner was truly irresponsible.


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## The Irish Draft 2022 (16 May 2022)

There is no way this rider will win this case for the reason being horse riding is seen as a risk spot so if you get seriously injured your done this at your risk. The dog didn’t attack it’s chased the  horse rider fell off because the horse bucked him off not because the dog attacked.  So the horse was unpredictable and shouldn’t be on the beach.

This is the type of argument the dog owner legal team will use horse riders never win these cases. so unfortunately the injured man will end getting nothing and the irresponsible dog owner will get away with it.


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## DirectorFury (16 May 2022)

I’ve heard via some local FB pages that the rider won his case against the riding stables (who’ve since shut down) which must prejudice his case against the dog owner?


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## Wishfilly (16 May 2022)

The Irish Draft 2022 said:



			There is no way this rider will win this case for the reason being horse riding is seen as a risk spot so if you get seriously injured your done this at your risk. The dog didn’t attack it’s chased the  horse rider fell off because the horse bucked him off not because the dog attacked.  So the horse was unpredictable and shouldn’t be on the beach.

This is the type of argument the dog owner legal team will use horse riders never win these cases. so unfortunately the injured man will end getting nothing and the irresponsible dog owner will get away with it.
		
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Sorry, but that's untrue. Riders have won cases against riding stables, horse owners, motorists etc before- it's not as simple as "do at your own risk". 

The dog was not under control, which is the law. 

I don't know what will happen in this case, but to say there is no way he will win is wrong.


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## misst (16 May 2022)

I just do not understand why someone would not put a dog on a lead if horses are nearby. I always put mine on. We have lots of people hacking on the common and occasionally they come off the bridle paths and "appear" on the woodland areas suddenly. I always get leads on my dogs though both are good and quiet around horses. The horses should not be off the bridle paths but at the same time I have a live and let live attitude. There is a lady with a JRT who complains all the time that riders shout at her because her dog chases them. She seems to have no idea at all how dangerous this can be for her dog and the riders. Interestingly I have not seen her for a few months so maybe she goes somewhere else now.
Mine have shown "interest" (ie I think they would have chased/barked if not on lead) when horses are cantering nearby.


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## Wishfilly (16 May 2022)

DirectorFury said:



			I’ve heard via some local FB pages that the rider won his case against the riding stables (who’ve since shut down) which must prejudice his case against the dog owner?
		
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Surely that would be mentioned in the news reports? I wonder if they settled out of court or similar?

Obviously we don't know exactly what happened, but I do think it is getting so difficult to run a riding school now, and that can't be good for the future of the sport.


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## The Irish Draft 2022 (16 May 2022)

Wishfilly said:



			Sorry, but that's untrue. Riders have won cases against riding stables, horse owners, motorists etc before- it's not as simple as "do at your own risk".

The dog was not under control, which is the law.

I don't know what will happen in this case, but to say there is no way he will win is wrong.
		
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There has been a few of cases where I live where riders  have got injured by lose dog  and none of them have won there cases. It’s the arguments people will use in court.


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## Wishfilly (16 May 2022)

The Irish Draft 2022 said:



			There has been a few of cases where I live where riders  have got injured by lose dog  and none of them have won there cases. It’s the arguments people will use in court.
		
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If that argument held true, no-one would ever be able to bring a court case around being injured whilst riding, which is clearly not the case. 

Have you got any more details about the cases? (PM if you prefer) I imagine there is a lot more to it than "riding is a risk sport".


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## Shilasdair (16 May 2022)

I imagine it also depends on how the rider described his abilities prior to the ride.

I used to work in a centre which did 2 hour 'fast' beach rides - and the customers had to fill out a form.   The number of people who wrote 'expert' or 'advanced' amazed me - and they were always the truly terrible riders.   The ones who were cagey about 'Can W,T, C' were generally the good riders.

Although, by the time you send someone to get their horse out of the stable, and to the mounting block, you know EXACTLY how well they can ride.


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## Wishfilly (16 May 2022)

This case, for example: https://www.horsesolicitor.co.uk/si...ed-13750-following-dog-attack-in-country-park

Seems to show it is possible to win such a case. 

I imagine it all comes down to the specifics of the incident, but it's obviously not impossible to win such a case. 

I think in a lot of cases, people don't pursue legal action for various reasons.


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## Wishfilly (16 May 2022)

Shilasdair said:



			I imagine it also depends on how the rider described his abilities prior to the ride.

I used to work in a centre which did 2 hour 'fast' beach rides - and the customers had to fill out a form.   The number of people who wrote 'expert' or 'advanced' amazed me - and they were always the truly terrible riders.   The ones who were cagey about 'Can W,T, C' were generally the good riders.

Although, by the time you send someone to get their horse out of the stable, and to the mounting block, you know EXACTLY how well they can ride.
		
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The place I used to work switched to a form where riders had to tick skills they could do, ranging from basic walk/trot to hacking to jumping to jumping outside an arena etc. 

It makes sense that people want to do something different on holiday, but we got a fair number of riders who could walk/trot/canter/jump reasonably in an arena, but rarely if ever hacked out- and you definitely want to find that out before they go down the first steep hill! 

I agree you can tell a lot just by seeing someone mount a horse though!


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## Keith_Beef (16 May 2022)

That case was not heard in court, so it was not won.




			While liability for the incident was initially denied, witness evidence was obtained and the claim settled without the need to go to court. The claimant got £13,750 in damages.
		
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## Wishfilly (16 May 2022)

Keith_Beef said:



			That case was not heard in court, so it was not won.
		
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If it's impossible to win such a case, why would the owner bother settling? I said "seems to show it is possible to win such a case" not that the case was won.


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## Flyermc (16 May 2022)

ycbm said:



			There is ALWAYS a requirement for dogs to be under control in English law, no matter where the dog is, even in a private garden.

If the dog had killed a child would that have been all right on that beach?

No,  of course not.  The law requires owners to be in control of their dogs.
.
		
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I do see what you mean, but a dog of the lead barking and running around on a beach or in a garden, where there is no requirement to be on a lead. The dog (from what ive read) startled the horse, who then bucked?

The chap need to claim against the RS insurance and if that insurance company feels that the dog owner is at fault, that RS insurance company would then counter claim, to reclaim all or part of the payout from the dog owner.


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## HashRouge (16 May 2022)

Flyermc said:



			I do see what you mean, but a dog of the lead barking and running around on a beach or in a garden, where there is no requirement to be on a lead. The dog (from what ive read) startled the horse, who then bucked?

The chap need to claim against the RS insurance and if that insurance company feels that the dog owner is at fault, that RS insurance company would then counter claim, to reclaim all or part of the payout from the dog owner.
		
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I think the point ycbm is making is that the dog needs to be _under control_. The fact that it was off lead is irrelevant, it should still be under control. Because it was not under control, the dog got far too close to the horse (between the back legs I think?) and caused the accident. The dog should never have been allowed to get that close to the horse, full stop. 

To be honest I have no idea how this one will play out, but my sympathy is firmly with the rider rather than the dog owner.


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## Flyermc (16 May 2022)

Amymay said:



			Do you really need a sign reminding you of the law? @Flyermc

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No, i dont have a dog or a horse

I do have a 7 year old who is scared of dogs and owners who regularly allow them to run up to her (all happy and jolly) but still scare her! i dont imagine that the law would class them as out of control?


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## Tracking_up (16 May 2022)

Keith_Beef said:



			That case was not heard in court, so it was not won.
		
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I think if some one/claimant was bringing a case in a civil court, and it was settled outside of court with a monetary sum paid over to the claimant, then I'd consider it a 'win' even if it was more of a moral victory. For whatever reason, the defendant felt it appropriate to 'cut their losses' and settle with a payment. 

It might be better to agree that case doesn't set a precedent, on the basis it was settled without going to court.


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## ycbm (16 May 2022)

Flyermc said:



			No, i dont have a dog or a horse

I do have a 7 year old who is scared of dogs and owners who regularly allow them to run up to her (all happy and jolly) but still scare her! i dont imagine that the law would class them as out of control?
		
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If they can't be recalled they're out of control.  Do you ask for them to be recalled? I am partially sighted and I routinely ask owners to recall their loose dogs from under my feet. 

The rider of a flight animal which can't be reasoned with or reassured like a child can be shouldn't have to ask an owner to recall their dog.  The owner should realise that the risk to their own dog is such that the animal should be recalled, even if they don't understand the risk to a rider. 
.


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## criso (16 May 2022)

Flyermc said:



			I do see what you mean, but a dog of the lead barking and running around on a beach or in a garden, where there is no requirement to be on a lead. The dog (from what ive read) startled the horse, who then bucked?

The chap need to claim against the RS insurance and if that insurance company feels that the dog owner is at fault, that RS insurance company would then counter claim, to reclaim all or part of the payout from the dog owner.
		
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The dog allegedly ran between the stationary  horse's back legs.  That's a bit different to running around nearby and spooking a horse.  

We also dont know who is initiating the claim.  If the person had their own insurance, their company might be suing.


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## ester (16 May 2022)

of course the law would count that as out of control. Especially since the wording changed fairly recently too.


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## SaddlePsych'D (16 May 2022)

Flyermc said:



			No, i dont have a dog or a horse

I do have a 7 year old who is scared of dogs and owners who regularly allow them to run up to her (all happy and jolly) but still scare her! i dont imagine that the law would class them as out of control?
		
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It could do, if there was concern about her being injured by the dog for example if there was a risk of her being knocked over by one even if it was 'only playing'.

https://www.gov.uk/control-dog-public

Really sorry to read she has had these experiences regularly. It is completely out of order that people can't enjoy their local spaces because heaven forbid some people's dog's fun be curtailed in any way!


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## Keith_Beef (16 May 2022)

Tracking_up said:



			It might be better to agree that case doesn't set a precedent, on the basis it was settled without going to court.
		
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You're right, that's the point that I was trying to make.

When one party has much deeper pockets that the other, a solicitor might well advise the client to settle out of court without admitting wrongdoing, rather drag out the proceedings and being found to be in the right but financially ruined.

The Vardy v. Rooney case going through the courts is quite instructive. The maximum award that the plaintiff could win is much lower than the legal costs already incurred.


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## alibali (16 May 2022)

One of the animals involved in this case was restrained using appropriate equipment, the other was not. I really fail to see where the debate is in this matter. Clearly one person has their animal under control to the best of their ability only losing control in the face of significant provocation. The other had no control and made no attempt to regain it.


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## Amymay (16 May 2022)

Flyermc said:



			No, i dont have a dog or a horse

I do have a 7 year old who is scared of dogs and owners who regularly allow them to run up to her (all happy and jolly) but still scare her! i dont imagine that the law would class them as out of control?
		
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A person only has to feel threatened (in law) for action to be taken against the owner of a dog deemed to be out of control.  Out of control means (basically) not listening to it’s owner or having been trained appropriately to be in public.


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## SO1 (16 May 2022)

A very sad situation.

Ride leader should have identified loose dog as a potential hazard and if within speaking distance of dog owner asked him to put dog on lead for 10 minutes so they could canter and get a decent distance away.

If loose dogs are a regular occurrence on the beach riders should be briefed on what to do if one runs up to them.

Most people are not knowledgeable about what could potentially frighten a horse. I had someone kick a football towards my pony and it narrowly missed his head. I do not expect members of the public to have this knowledge.

Dog owners need to respect others who are using public space. That means if someone asks you to put your dog on a lead to enable them pass safely be that because you are on horse, walking a reactive dog on lead who might not be happy to be approached by another dog, or be a person who is less mobile and might fall over if a dog jumped up or ran around its legs.

Would I expect a dog owner to put their dog on a lead around horses? I would expect the dog owner to have some understanding of how a loose dog could cause an accident and put it on a lead if they were not sure how it would react in a certain situation when other people, horses, livestock, other dogs are close by. However I think a lot of people who get dogs now are very inexperienced and have never had a dog before. It is not like with horses where people learn to ride under supervision and someone teaches them about equine behaviour before they are let loose and become horse owners.

A lot of first time dog owners get no training on how to manage their dog in public places and also the importance of recall and what to do in an emergency situation if unable to recall their dog quickly. I have very low expectations of dog owners and am very wary of any loose dogs.

My pony is used to dogs, he is a new forest and would have encountered them whilst roaming around when he was a stallion, he also used to be kept in a field with a footoath running through it, and our yard rents out dog paddocks and one is right next to the school so he sees dogs playing a lot. However expect if he thought he was going to be attacked he would probably run away.

If I am out riding I will ask people to put dog on lead or hold onto them by the collar when I am passing and I would always just walk until I have made a good distance between dog and myself.

I think maybe this case will be based on negligence as should Max's owner as a responsible dog owner be expected to have known that there would be a risk that he would be unable to recall his dog from the horses or that his dog if it got too close to a horse could cause an accident.

If the answer is yes all dogs owners should be expected to know that dogs can chase and frighten horses then yes the dog should have been recalled and put on a lead when the horses were near.

Should the ride leader have know loose dogs could be a hazard and dog owners are numpties who maybe unable to recall their dogs and therefore taken extra precautions such as asking for dog to be on a lead, or making sure the were far away from the dog before cantering.

I expect what happened was that they realised they were being chased by the dog and everyone pulled up to allow the dog owner to get his dog and dog frightened, surprised or irritated the horse.

Would you also expect there to be a guide at the back and front of the ride so in a scenario where the dog is chasing the horses there is not a client at the back exposed to the dog.


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## Fred66 (17 May 2022)

Amymay said:



			A person only has to feel threatened (in law) for action to be taken against the owner of a dog deemed to be out of control.  Out of control means (basically) not listening to it’s owner or having been trained appropriately to be in public.
		
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But it would have to be what a reasonable person would feel threatened by. So an elderly terrier that is a bit yappy is unlikely to class as dangerously out of control unless it’s actions directly caused the incident. So the case will rest on the evidence relating to the dogs involvement as well the riders actions.
So if the riders had already gone past at a distance but upon return came a lot closer and the dog felt threatened and barked a warning but didn’t give chase then this would not necessarily mean that it was out of control.


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## ThreeFurs (17 May 2022)

Terribly sad. As riders, spinal injury is what we all dread. I feel for all involved. However I am a bit over the owner, quoted in both press stories, saying how 'small, elderly and gentle' his Westie is.

I have two horses and have also consecutively owned both a Westie, and now a Cairn, and the Westie was a nightmare around horses, and thus kept at home or in the ute when I was with mine. He did the classic canine 'fear-aggression' response with them. Westies were bred to pull snapping, snarling badgers out of holes. The pups who were too scared to go in [according to the breed books] were drowned. A few generations of this has resulted in a dog that looks cute, but has a very powerful, hunty 'varminty' instinct.

I often saw this in my late Westie, Harry, running right at something scary, rather than away. Their bark is that of a dog twice their size. My Cairn, Angas, on the other hand is extremely cautious and respectful, both around my own and other horses, ignores them and carries on with his day.

Sounds like the riding school was aware of desensitizing the horses to dogs [latest news article link above] by having them 'loose' around the horses, but I've observed horses are incredibly quick to perceive dogs they know, and whose behavior they can rely on, and strange dogs.

Anyway, FWIW, for an article for 'Horses & People' magazine I researched dog-horse-human interactions in art history going back centuries. Lots of images of dogs chasing bolting horses with terrified riders. Seriously, we ought to be on top of it by now! Risk assessement skills of everyone involved seemed to have gone awry in this sad situtions, and yes, the dog should have been put on a lead, or been under verbal control.


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## Millionwords (17 May 2022)

scruffyponies said:



			Typical dog 1) spaniel or labrador (working breed).  Typical dog 2) shitsu or similar twat-y-poo.
There is a third type.  Owner is similar to 1, but in posession of a terrier, which is immediately wrestled to the floor and put on a lead, or placed in a secure head-lock at chest height.  Owner nevertheless looks nervous and apologetic 

Click to expand...

That actually made me howl laughing. I am that third type and my JRTx gets wrestled by the neck to the floor because he simply cannot be trusted to behave the same way twice. Bloody terriers.


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## Not_so_brave_anymore (17 May 2022)

Apologies if this has been said many times already. I'm not sure of the situation in the Netherlands, but I know that in Germany everyone is insured up to the eyeballs with general personal insurance against any sort of accident they might cause. 5M isn't the sort of money that anyone can actually pay, it could only be paid by an insurance company. 

FWIW this is exactly why we're all advised to take out 3rd party insurance on dogs and horses alike. Maybe this insurance should be a legal requirement, similar to car insurance?


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## Tiddlypom (17 May 2022)

Wishfilly said:



			The place I used to work switched to a form where riders had to tick skills they could do, ranging from basic walk/trot to hacking to jumping to jumping outside an arena etc.
		
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The RS that I go to for 'rusty but previously experienced rider' returner lessons does this. I did additionally ask for a forgiving steady neddy, and I got one!

They also offer 1.5 hour escorted hacks in wtc to the nearby forestry. No client can go on a hack unless they have had an assessment flatwork lesson beforehand, which could be earlier on the same day. It susses out the numptie dreamers. I've yet to go out on one of these hacks, but I do know much of the route they take, and loose dogs could well be encountered.

ETA I did pass my pre hacking assessment, and got practice in riding in 2 point in canter in the arena in prep for hacking.


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## ILuvCowparsely (17 May 2022)

Amymay said:



			See a horse, put it on a lead. It’s quite simple really.
		
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Quite
 Regardless of whether the dog is good recall or good with horses.  the rider does not not know this neither does the horse.


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## chocolategirl (17 May 2022)

Haven’t read all the responses, but this is my take. Every time I put my foot in the stirrup and mount up, I wholly accept I am putting my life in danger because I’m dealing with an animal with an extremely strong flight instinct. I’m 57 now and have ridden since the age of 8. My fear has grown, yet I still accept that one day my luck MAY run out, and something catastrophic could happen, but I CHOOSE to mount up anyway. It could be a discarded carrier bag blowing towards me in the breeze, a child flying a kite or model aeroplane in their garden as I ride past, and yes, an overexcited dog with bad recall! There are a thousand situations in which I may find myself with a scared horse. If you can’t accept these potential eventualities, don’t mount up, don’t get behind the wheel, don’t get on that plane etc etc etc🤷‍♀️ To add, I feel terribly sorry for the chap in this situation, but like me, he knew he was taking a massive risk getting on a horse he didn’t even know, I’ve had mine 12 years and know her like the back of my hand, doesn’t stop me wondering if one day that hack is going to be my last😏


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## ycbm (17 May 2022)

chocolategirl said:



			Haven’t read all the responses, but this is my take. Every time I put my foot in the stirrup and mount up, I wholly accept I am putting my life in danger because I’m dealing with an animal with an extremely strong flight instinct. I’m 57 now and have ridden since the age of 8. My fear has grown, yet I still accept that one day my luck MAY run out, and something catastrophic could happen, but I CHOOSE to mount up anyway. It could be a discarded carrier bag blowing towards me in the breeze, a child flying a kite or model aeroplane in their garden as I ride past, and yes, an overexcited dog with bad recall! There are a thousand situations in which I may find myself with a scared horse. If you can’t accept these potential eventualities, don’t mount up, don’t get behind the wheel, don’t get on that plane etc etc etc🤷‍♀️ To add, I feel terribly sorry for the chap in this situation, but like me, he knew he was taking a massive risk getting on a horse he didn’t even know, I’ve had mine 12 years and know her like the back of my hand, doesn’t stop me wondering if one day that hack is going to be my last😏
		
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I think plenty of us ride knowingly accepting the risks. I know I do.   But if someone breaks the law and causes harm,  the person harmed has a right to compensation for their injuries. 

Your horse might also be hit by a car being driven carelessly while you are out riding.  Would you not expect the car driver to compensate you for injuries to you or your horse?
.


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## criso (17 May 2022)

chocolategirl said:



			Haven’t read all the responses, but this is my take. Every time I put my foot in the stirrup and mount up, I wholly accept I am putting my life in danger because I’m dealing with an animal with an extremely strong flight instinct. I’m 57 now and have ridden since the age of 8. My fear has grown, yet I still accept that one day my luck MAY run out, and something catastrophic could happen, but I CHOOSE to mount up anyway. It could be a discarded carrier bag blowing towards me in the breeze, a child flying a kite or model aeroplane in their garden as I ride past, and yes, an overexcited dog with bad recall! There are a thousand situations in which I may find myself with a scared horse. If you can’t accept these potential eventualities, don’t mount up, don’t get behind the wheel, don’t get on that plane etc etc etc🤷‍♀️ To add, I feel terribly sorry for the chap in this situation, but like me, he knew he was taking a massive risk getting on a horse he didn’t even know, I’ve had mine 12 years and know her like the back of my hand, doesn’t stop me wondering if one day that hack is going to be my last😏
		
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Even allowing for that,  on a practical level, we  have someone who has life changing injuries which will cost money to manage and impair their ability to earn for the rest of their life.

Even if the rider has insurance, their insurance company will still try and get the other party's insurance to pay.  So the talk is about who is to blame but the subtext is which insurer is going to end out paying 5m.


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## Smoky 2022 (17 May 2022)

What you guys don’t realize horses will be  banned from beaches because of these types of cases. In Parts of Ireland both dog and horses are banned from the beach for that reason. So this case is going to ruin it for everyone.


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## Birker2020 (17 May 2022)

I've mentioned this previously on the forum but years ago (1997 to be precise) my lovely WB Biggles and I were cantering across so public open ground. I spotted a staffy heading towards us so brought Biggles back to walk and then halt.  The dog came over and started barking and growling and then kept jumping up and trying to latch on to his throat and then his tail. 

 I leapt off and stood in front of Biggles and held his reins, he kept moving from side to side in an effort to evade the dog.  Eventually after what seemed like hours but was probably a couple of minutes with me asking the dog owner to call his dog off, and him screaming at me to stop my horse from moving so he could grab his dog, the dog ended up tangled between Biggs hind legs.  So after what felt like extreme tolerance on the part of my horse up until that point, Biggles finally got fed up and booted the dog.  The dog landed a few feet away at first unconcious and then came round with a mouth dripping with blood.

By this time the house owners who back gardens backed onto the waste ground came running out with shovels to bash the dog over the head. The owner scooped his dog off the floor and shouted that he would sue me for vets fees.

Biggles was lucky, he had a small chunk of flesh missing from his flank but other than that was unscathed and after he'd calmed down I was able to ride him home.

I visited the police station later that day and told them what had happened and they said if I were to see the man with the dog again to dial 999 and they would come out and seize the dog. Quite what would happen after that I didn't know, nor care to know.  But I think they felt, as I did, that the bloke had got a dog that was out of control in a public place and the dog could have gone for a human or child.


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## DirectorFury (17 May 2022)

Smoky 2022 said:



			What you guys don’t realize horses will be  banned from beaches because of these types of cases. In Parts of Ireland both dog and horses are banned from the beach for that reason. So this case is going to ruin it for everyone.
		
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Horses are already banned from a lot of beaches in the UK, some permanently and some temporarily during the summer months -- same for dogs. It'll be a local authority level decision and until someone sues a LA I can't see them taking any action.
In Swansea, for example, dogs aren't allowed on a lot of beaches between 1st May - 30th Sept. Horses are only allowed on these beaches between 7pm and 9am between these dates.

For horse riders, it's in our interests to be good "citizens" (I can't think of the word I want) when we're sharing spaces with others. That might mean not having a canter if the beach is a little busy or if there are loose dogs, and might even mean just turning back and not going on the beach at all if it's really busy. Checking tide times to make sure you've got as much room as possible is the most basic thing you can do, yet so many people don't bother and then get the hump when the only available sand is full of people! On common land this means not galloping through the middle of a herd of sheep, and not galloping towards walkers even if the path is 6ft wide.



SilverLinings said:



			I would have thought that from a legal POV it is irrelevant whether the horses were stationary or cantering*, as either way if the dog was under control/on a lead it would have left them alone. Dogs aren't let off after chasing livestock just because the sheep started running so the dog 'couldn't help themselves'. Equally an attack on a child wouldn't be seen to be less of the dogs fault if the child was running away at the time.
		
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I was bitten by a terrier as a child and the police refused to take action because I was running away from it! It was, coincidentally, owned by a police officer and had already bitten other kids in the street as it kept escaping from their garden. No action was ever taken and this was early 2000s so not exactly the dark ages.


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## Tiddlypom (17 May 2022)

Smoky 2022 said:



			What you guys don’t realize horses will be  banned from beaches because of these types of cases.
		
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Already been discussed .

So you'd prefer that the guy who got serious life changing injuries in an avoidable incident (if the dog had been under control) didn't sue in case it spoils it for everyone else?


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## southerncomfort (17 May 2022)

It's a moot point with regards to the legal case but I'm curious why, if the horse had not previously reacted badly to loose dogs, it reacted so badly on this occasion.


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## oldie48 (17 May 2022)

I obviously feel very sorry for the rider, it must be dreadful for him and I think he should try every avenue he can to get compensation so he can get the care he needs for the rest of his life. However, what is still bugging me is the horse's reaction to the dog. Over the years we've met many loose dogs that have followed us, barked threateningly and generally been a complete nuisance and I've never had a horse bolt or buck. I'm talking about fit competition horses, not RS horses. My biggest fear is that the dog/dogs would get booted. However, I think when you have a large group of inexperienced riders problems can escalate pretty quickly.https://www.westerntelegraph.co.uk/...-injured-and-horse-put-down-after-dog-attack/


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## Goldenstar (17 May 2022)

southerncomfort said:



			It's a moot point with regards to the legal case but I'm curious why, if the horse had not previously reacted badly to loose dogs, it reacted so badly on this occasion.
		
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Perhaps it was nipped .
It’s really hard to judge how it will come out because the details of the incident are so important .
The rider will be assumed to have assumed some the risk getting onto the horse he was experienced .
Then it’s down to can he prove negligence I don’t think on the details give he can against the yard .
But I think if I had say based on the details he can against the dog owner .


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## criso (17 May 2022)

No one will know exactly but once the dog was between the back legs of a standing horse, it may have nipped.  

My old horse who was really good with animals, reacted on 2 occasions.  One was a border collie that was actually nipping his heels, he bounced a little and tried to push it away with his back legs, not fast or hard enough for a kick but was getting more annoyed. If the owner hadn't appeared, it may have escalated.  The other was a squirrel that ran out of the crop and started to run up his front leg.  He reared and flung the leg out catapulting the squirrel through the air.  

This was a horse that was brilliant with anything running around him but actually making contact was a step too far.


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## Tiddlypom (17 May 2022)

Even my saintly IDx was most perturbed when a farm JRT ran out from his non dog proof garden and got in between her legs barking. She froze, which wasn't ideal as we were on a blind bend on the road.

It turned that previously another usually steady pony, used to dogs, had ditched the rider at the same spot after the same had happened to them.

We did have a quiet word with the dog owners, who we knew, and tbf the dog has been kept under control ever since.


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## Birker2020 (17 May 2022)

This happens a lot more frequently than you would imagine, lots of horses and riders injured in beach attacks, makes frightening reading


https://www.horseandhound.co.uk/new...-down-pony-in-frightening-beach-attack-741814
https://www.grimsbytelegraph.co.uk/news/grimsby-news/dog-attacks-horse-cleethorpes-beach-2390963

__
		https://www.reddit.com/r/BanPitBulls/comments/pctkjw
https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/eight-riders-injured-horse-put-11755648
https://www.kentonline.co.uk/romney-marsh/news/hunt-for-dog-who-attacked-118397/
https://www.thecourier.co.uk/fp/new...s-after-pony-injured-in-attack-on-fife-beach/
https://www.lowestoftjournal.co.uk/news/dog-bites-horse-on-beach-7625576
https://www.irvinetimes.com/news/15...er-horse-was-attacked-by-dog-on-irvine-beach/


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## scruffyponies (17 May 2022)

IME horses can tell the difference between a dog who means them harm and not.  The only time we were genuinely in danger, a young Mallinois came at us off-lead with intent and pony didn't run but kept his heels to the threat, kicking and spinning for all he was worth.  We met the same dog 2 years later, and whilst it still barked and growled, it kept a distance, so clearly pony made an impression!


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## tda (17 May 2022)

Millionwords said:



			That actually made me howl laughing. I am that third type and my JRTx gets wrestled by the neck to the floor because he simply cannot be trusted to behave the same way twice. Bloody terriers.
		
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Me too 🙄😂
I think the fact that the dog had been called away once, still not put on the lead so was allowed to return to the horses must be a black mark against the owner.
Lots of people think their dogs are harmless which is not true


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## Pearlsasinger (17 May 2022)

Clodagh said:



			I must admit I wouldn’t put mine on a lead but they really are always under 100% control in public.
I hope the rider wins. People need to think and if a financial scare helps wake them up then good.
If my dog caused an RTA I’d be liable (SFAIAA) so this is no different. Either train or leash.
Insurance is often covered by your household insurance.
		
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And don't be complacent because your dog usually comes back!   (not saying that's you C)


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## Clodagh (17 May 2022)

Pearlsasinger said:



			And don't be complacent because your dog usually comes back!   (not saying that's you C)
		
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Well if spaniel ever goes out in public she’ll be leashed!


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## stormox (17 May 2022)

How would they prove it was the dog made the horse buck the rider off?  Beaches have kites, surfers, balls dogs.... if a child had kicked a ball under the horse the same thing could have happened. Surely the riding school is at fault here (if anyone is, I would call it an accident) for allowing a person to ride a horse they couldn't control? A horse rider must be in control of their horse just as a dog owner must be in control of their dog.


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## milliepops (17 May 2022)

a dog being under the horse's feet might be a clue there.


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## milliepops (17 May 2022)

all those other things didn't happen in this case. the rider was sufficiently in control to have done a canter already. what happened was nothing to do with beach balls or kites, and entirely to do with a dog running free outside the control of its owner.


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## stormox (17 May 2022)

The horse wasn't in control of its rider either or they wouldn't have fallen off. Accidents happen, both dogs and horses are animals with minds of their own. This 'suing' culture is getting out of hand.


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## milliepops (17 May 2022)

as someone mentioned upthread, if a car hit a horse and the horse reacted by rearing and the rider fell off, wouldn't you say the car driver was at fault for causing the accident?  it's not the rider's fault for minding their own beeswax and getting mown down.

  to my mind, the dog owner being out of control of their dog is similar, you can forsee all number of problems with an out of control dog whether that's as  simple as it running off, or biting a child, or spooking a horse or just robbing someone's picnic   all of those things are the dog owner's fault.


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## Shilasdair (17 May 2022)

In response to SO1 and others who say that riders and horses should be proof against all risks - or it's their fault - complete nonsense.
There is no way to proof your horse against being harassed, threatened or bitten by a strange dog on a beach.
It's the dog owner's responsibility.    
No riding school can guarantee a horse's behaviour under all circumstances (hence the BHS mantra of 'horses are unpredictable') and it is unreasonable to expect them to do so.
It's interesting the contortions that dog owners are going through on this thread to avoid any responsibility.

I couldn't guarantee that Stepdog wouldn't chase a horse on a beach despite her being used to horses - therefore if I see any horses, Stepdog is on the leash and moving out of the way.   Stepdog doesn't mind- she just enjoys being on the beach with her human and me.


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## ILuvCowparsely (17 May 2022)

Fransurrey said:



			Unfortunately it seems more and more of dog owners are also 'simple'.
.
		
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This made me chuckle


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## ILuvCowparsely (17 May 2022)

stormox said:



			The horse wasn't in control of its rider either or they wouldn't have fallen off. Accidents happen, both dogs and horses are animals with minds of their own. This 'suing' culture is getting out of hand.
		
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Are you for real?

Do you know how much power goes through a human body when a horse broncs or bucks??   Take it from me when my boy bronked me off on the concrete and fractured my humerus.   Any rider sitting in the saddle holding theirs reins is in control  of their horse. Same like a dog on the leash is under the control of the owner.   The horse was stationary when the dog ran at the horse barking and ran under the horse.
The owner is trying to weasel out of the responsibility saying 




			there is no reason to blame his “small, elderly and gentle” Westie for the accident
		
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   Who ruddy cares whether the dog was 6 months old or  15 , the outcome was the same.

Dog owner 100% to blame and the responsibility is theirs  why this poor riders has to spend the rest of their life in a wheelchair.


Sorry officer 




			I was not responsible for my dog running out on the road and causing an accident, he is very sweet and old,, the car was coming down the road and hit him its the drivers fault.
		
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## milliepops (17 May 2022)

ILuvCowparsely said:



			Any rider ridding  sitting in the saddle holding theirs reins is in control  of their horse. Same like a dog on the leash is under the control of the owner.  .
		
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yeah this is quite a neat comparison really.

I was wondering if it was my not being a dog owner that was making me feel like the dog owner should take responsibility but seems there are lots of dog folk who see it the same way too. which is reassuring from an "expectations" pov.

the only times i've taken OHs dogs out i kept them on a lead the whole time because i'd be mortified if recall failed and they got away. i hate being approached by strange dogs full stop and so would never want to affect someone else the same way.  i speak dog about as well as a horse does so even with the friendly ones I'm not sure i can read them very well, that shouldn't be On Me any more than it should be on a horse.


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## Annagain (17 May 2022)

A couple of weeks ago I was riding my friend's young cob across the local common. We started to canter then spotted some loose dogs fairly close so came back to a walk and then stopped as one of the dogs (some small fluff ball thing) was running towards us. Her owner was chatting to some other people with his back towards us and paying no attention at all. 

I shouted "Excuse me" about 3 times and he didn't even turn round - by this point the dog was about 4 feet away and curious, not coming any closer but circling and following if we moved. The boys were fine luckily but it was the first time the youngster had been in this sort of situation and we didn't know that he would be. Eventually bellowing "OI. YOUR DOG" got his attention. He was very apologetic but looked a bit affronted when I said "We just didn't want your dog getting kicked, it would probably kill her. They're normally very good with dogs but if she gets too close or starts yapping, we can't guarantee they won't kick."


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## CanteringCarrot (17 May 2022)

There's actually a few angles that can be taken here:

Dog and dog owner at fault. End of.

The rider was an experienced horseman and therefore is aware of the risks when riding a flight animal such as a horse. These type of injuries are very (unfortunately) possible. I would think that the defense will really play this one up. It's possibly all they've got.

Neither the guide nor the rider said anything to the dog owner first about putting it on a leash. Again, the defense. Not saying I agree!

It's a given when you see another animal, be it dog, horse, deer, cat, etc. you should leash your dog immediately. If your dog has questionable recall, all the more reason to, especially in a public space where there is likely to be other people and animals.

No one gives a fig how old the dog is.

It's frightening for a flight animal especially to have another animal run under them. They cannot see the other animal and will very likely react. The size of the dog in this case is rather irrelevant because it's still a dog, and still able to frighten the horse. The horse doesn't know that it's your sweet little old Westie and to stay calm. 🙄

It's likely all of those arguments will be used in some compacity by either side. I believe the dog owner had a responsibility to leash the dog, and that the animal was out of control. Even my dog who is cool with horses, has good recall, and will heel on command gets leashed when a horse is within sight. Mostly because there's always that off chance of animals being animals, which is why the dog is fully insured (liability and legal), and why it's generally required here. If my dog runs in the road and gets hit, it's generally the dogs fault and the dog owner pays for damages. Same for horse.

This could get horses and dogs banned from beaches, yes. I think they should be anyway, except for during the off season. Then a leash law applies, and if not followed the dog owner is 100% liable.


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## honetpot (17 May 2022)

I put my dog on the lead as soon as I hear or see a horse, no matter where I am. I just would not want to be responsible, even unintentionally for someone else's in jury. In the same way people riding in shared spaces should be more aware. I was walking my dog, on a bendy footpath, I heard the horse and caught the dogs up and they came cantering around the corner. 
  If it's you and your dog that is found responsible, your house insurance may cover the legal fees, not sure about anything else. I have so much insurance because I have seen too many equine injuries, falls and kicks, to humans.


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## MagicMelon (17 May 2022)

scruffyponies said:



			Frightening how many commenters on this story believed that a dog on a beach has an absolute right to be off-lead and the horse had no right to be there.  
We live in a an intolerant and myopic world, full of morons.
		
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Absolutely, crazy!  I dont know what the rules are in Wales - are dogs not allowed off the lead anywhere else?  In Scotland, dogs can be off lead anywhere but theyre certainly meant to be under control. I would never ever let my dog off lead as her recall is rubbish!  I have no issues with loose dogs IF their owners keep them near and they have excellent recall. Otherwise, they should never be off lead IMO. The dog should never have approached the horse, it makes no difference if the dog was in a place where it was "allowed" to be off. What happened if it leapt on a young child hurting it? Of course the dog owner would be at fault. I personally find so many dog owners extremely selfish. We go for walks regularly in local forestry and we're always having loose dogs rushing up to us getting in my dogs face (who is on a lead and can feel threatened understandably after a loose dog went for her years ago!), and getting up in my young kids faces - drives me nuts people think its ok to shout "they're friendly" while a big dog runs at my kids trying to lick their faces. Why would anyone think that was acceptable, dogs can and do kill children so why would I trust you a complete stranger! This is why I cannot go for walks there on my own with my 3 kids and dog - I dont have enough arms to lift up my 2 youngest kids and the dog! Keep your dog away from ANYONE or ANYTHING else!

You cant even train your horse to get used to this situation as all situations involving loose dogs are different. My horse is used to my own dog running about but she'd never go underneath them or growl at them etc. I have no idea how my horses would react in that circumstance.

I hope the man wins his case! He should do!


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## Fransurrey (17 May 2022)

southerncomfort said:



			It's a moot point with regards to the legal case but I'm curious why, if the horse had not previously reacted badly to loose dogs, it reacted so badly on this occasion.
		
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It may well have been in the horse's blind spot and taken it by surprise. This is literally what happened in my scenario the other day, as the dog approached from directly behind. My horse is an absolute saint with dogs, but I'm sure he didn't see the dog on this occasion and just felt something go between his legs/under his tail and bucked.

I had yet another out of control dog yesterday. The owner was in sight lamely shouting the dog's name and as she came closer giggled, 'she never comes back to me'. This was a dog bounding around and barking at both ends of my horse. I did say that she should have her on a lead if she doesn't have recall and there was no response. Can't say she learned anything as when I turned around a few seconds later the dog was still off a lead running ahead of her.


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## DressageCob (17 May 2022)

There is strict liability under the Animals Act 1971. Provided the Claimant can show the dog demonstrated behaviour not normally found in dogs except in certain circumstances (e.g. chasing a prey animal, excited at horses cantering etc) AND that the dog owner was aware of that behaviour he should be home and dry. 

the knowledge point is where a lot of cases fail. Here the dog owner is saying the dog hadn't chased horses before. Previous cases have shown general knowledge may suffice, rather than specific knowledge, so knowing that a dog (or even specifically a terrier) may chase other animals may be enough. it depends how the evidence comes out. 

It's always better to proceed under the Animals Act since it's strict liability (so you don't have to prove negligence). I don't think any of the defences will apply (injury is the fault of the person who suffered it, or they voluntarily accepted the risk) in the dog owner claim. The voluntarily accepting the risk defence is what often halts riding claims, since you accept a risk of injury every time you ride, except in cases where there was a very specific risk with that particular horse (e.g. horse is a known rearer and you're not told that, so you don't mount with that knowledge). 

It's not the first out of control dog/horse riding case, but it is worth a lot of money which is why it's being reported on. It will be interesting to see which way it goes.


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## Rokele55 (17 May 2022)

Playing devils advocate here; if a sheep leapt out of the bracken while riding on the common and spooked a horse causing a fall, would the farmer who owned the sheep be liable for the damages?  I know farmers can be sued for having unsuitable livestock, such as a bull, on a footpath.  Can over excitable sheep on a bridleway be under the same restrictions?

Can the gamekeeper be sued when a pheasant flies out of the hedge and neddy drops a shoulder, whips round and leaves his jockey on the floor?

My dog has been known to pop out of a hedge when out walking which could cause a spook.  Would I be liable, even if I was unaware of a horse the other side of the hedge, or should my dog be at my feet on a lead the whole time, just in case.

My  ex neighbour once had pigs. Although a small field away from the road she was villified by some whose horsed took umbrage at the smell of pigs and got twitchy. Was the person who fell off and got hurt when their horse spooked going past at fault for coming that way knowing they could not control their horse, or my neighbour who had pigs on her land.

If a horse is hired out as suitable for beach rides where the general public are known to walk their dogs, should it be the owner of the dog who, by these accounts, was just pootling with no intention of frightening the horse. Or the owner of the hired horse who had rented it out not ensuring it was safe for purpose (a pootling dog should not cause an unseating buck in a hired horse).  Or could it be the rider of the horse overstated his prowess when booking his ride, as many do.   A minefield which may well have ramifications for all who like to get out in the fresh air.


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## milliepops (17 May 2022)

don't think there's usually an expectation for farmers to keep livestock on leads around the public though?


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## Tiddlypom (17 May 2022)

Rokele55 said:



			My dog has been known to pop out of a hedge when out walking which could cause a spook. Would I be liable, even if I was unaware of a horse the other side of the hedge, or should my dog be at my feet on a lead the whole time, just in case.
		
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Your dog should be under control at all times, so no popping out of a hedge to unexpectedly encounter members of the public going about their business.

In a more open area, a dog can be further away from you as long as you can recall it instantly if required.


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## Clodagh (17 May 2022)

Rokele55 said:



			Playing devils advocate here; if a sheep leapt out of the bracken while riding on the common and spooked a horse causing a fall, would the farmer who owned the sheep be liable for the damages?  I know farmers can be sued for having unsuitable livestock, such as a bull, on a footpath.  Can over excitable sheep on a bridleway be under the same restrictions?

Can the gamekeeper be sued when a pheasant flies out of the hedge and neddy drops a shoulder, whips round and leaves his jockey on the floor?

My dog has been known to pop out of a hedge when out walking which could cause a spook.  Would I be liable, even if I was unaware of a horse the other side of the hedge, or should my dog be at my feet on a lead the whole time, just in case.
		
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Pheasants are wild (in the eyes of the law) so no responsibility there. Would there be if a beater flushed that pheasant as you rode past? IDK.
Sheep I imagine are like cats and do as they like.
My dogs are not allowed out of sight, unless I am working them. I guess if they caused an accident then I may be liable? Maybe.


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## Peglo (17 May 2022)

The point is though that the dog owner took his dog to the beach and knew it was near horses and didn’t control his animal. A farmer isn’t ramming his sheep through a hedge to scare the public. 

If a sheep escaped and potentially scared a horse, that’s an accident. 
A dog running around under a horse with the owner there is negligence. 
very different scenarios.

I also don’t know how people expect a horse not to react to a dog running between their legs.  If the horse didn’t know the dog was there and touched the horses legs surely it’s natural the horse would get a fright.
I like going to the beach and going a paddle. Now I know there could be flat fish in the sand but that still doesn’t stop me sh**ting mesell when I stand on one when it swims off. Why would we put blame on anyone for getting a fright? Never mind a flight animal.


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## SilverLinings (17 May 2022)

Dogs aren't wild animals in the UK, and are predators with the capacity to be dangerous (either through intent or neglect of control) so they are required by law to be kept under control. Sheep and pheasants are not (usually 😁) predators, and are not legally required to be controlled by their owners in the same way. Plenty of horses have shied when fat pigeons flap noisily out of a tree, but that doesn't mean someone would be liable for their behaviour as there is no law on keeping pigeons under control, unlike the Control of Dogs Act. 

From a legal POV (in the UK) it is pointless comparing dogs with any other animal in this type of situation, as dog owners (or walkers/keepers) are liable in a very specific way.


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## DressageCob (17 May 2022)

Rokele55 said:



			Playing devils advocate here; if a sheep leapt out of the bracken while riding on the common and spooked a horse causing a fall, would the farmer who owned the sheep be liable for the damages?  I know farmers can be sued for having unsuitable livestock, such as a bull, on a footpath.  Can over excitable sheep on a bridleway be under the same restrictions?

Can the gamekeeper be sued when a pheasant flies out of the hedge and neddy drops a shoulder, whips round and leaves his jockey on the floor?

My dog has been known to pop out of a hedge when out walking which could cause a spook.  Would I be liable, even if I was unaware of a horse the other side of the hedge, or should my dog be at my feet on a lead the whole time, just in case.

My  ex neighbour once had pigs. Although a small field away from the road she was villified by some whose horsed took umbrage at the smell of pigs and got twitchy. Was the person who fell off and got hurt when their horse spooked going past at fault for coming that way knowing they could not control their horse, or my neighbour who had pigs on her land.

If a horse is hired out as suitable for beach rides where the general public are known to walk their dogs, should it be the owner of the dog who, by these accounts, was just pootling with no intention of frightening the horse. Or the owner of the hired horse who had rented it out not ensuring it was safe for purpose (a pootling dog should not cause an unseating buck in a hired horse).  Or could it be the rider of the horse overstated his prowess when booking his ride, as many do.   A minefield which may well have ramifications for all who like to get out in the fresh air.
		
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With the sheep example, there will be circumstances where the farmer is liable. There are many cases relating to cows escaping onto highways and causing accidents, cows trampling people on the footpath etc. It will depend upon what causes the sheep to do what it did. If it is just behaving normally then the farmer is unlikely to be liable under the AA 1971. If it is a killer sheep with a known distaste for horses, then that's different. There may be some argument for saying keeping sheep on a bridleway is negligent, but I think that would be difficult to get a court to accept. 

Pigs existing is not grounds for liability. There is a degree of common sense. If I rode my horse past pigs knowing he didn't like pigs then I would be the author of my own misfortune. if I have booked on an escorted ride and am riding a horse provided to me, and that horse has a known fear of pigs and I'm not told about it and we ride past pigs, then the riding stables may be liable. 

If your dog pops out of a hedge and you have no idea what is on the other side then you are likely to be found negligent and given your knowledge that your dog does that (and one assumes it's when it's on a scent or following prey) then you are probably strictly liable under the AA 1971 too. 

Pheasants in the wild can't be sued 😄 A beater sending pheasants out while someone is riding past on a known bridleway may be negligent if they knew/ought to have known horses may be passing. It would depend on the circumstances.


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## Schmendrick (17 May 2022)

Cloball said:



			I 'wrestled' a chihuahua to rescue it from being run over as the walker (not owner) thought it was a good idea to let it off to lead to 'play' on a beach with a lot going on that has a busy road running along it. The poor thing got overwhelmed had no recall and was playing chicken with cars. It baffles me that people seem to think it's their dogs right to be off the lead to 'play' regardless of its own safety. I'm sure these people love their fur babies but have no ability to risk assess a situation. (Or don't wish to actually engage with the dog and want someone else to tire it out for them). I do not understand why people don't just put them on leads!?

Maybe😏 I'm convinced by the way people drive few people actually understand a lot of the laws which effect them daily.
		
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## Rokele55 (17 May 2022)

Tiddlypom said:



			Your dog should be under control at all times, so no popping out of a hedge to unexpectedly encounter members of the public going about their business.
		
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A dog running hedges or appearing in gateways can be under complete control and completely within their rights and your sight, particularly working dogs.


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## criso (17 May 2022)

Possibly the other difference is that pheasants and sheep will usually run away from you they may sometimes fly out of a bush spooking your horse but they're not aiming at you. A dog has a chase instinct so is more likely to focus on and go after a horse so the owner has to be aware of this likely behaviour and take measures to make sure this doesn't threaten horses, other dogs, people or livestock.

I would think too if a particular sheep took to running at people on a footpath in a field, it would be moved. Could there potentially be a case if someone was injured walking on a public footpath?


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## Amymay (17 May 2022)

stormox said:



			The horse wasn't in control of its rider either or they wouldn't have fallen off. Accidents happen, both dogs and horses are animals with minds of their own. This 'suing' culture is getting out of hand.
		
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I think the majority of us would agree with you. But this man sustained life changing injuries (not a simple bash to his pride). I think it’s entirely appropriate to sue for damages in this instance.


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## Clodagh (17 May 2022)

We walk through a field of adult sheep that have been bottle fed and my dogs are scared of them. I’ve never considered suing the farmer, even if I got taken out by an escaping dog. 
I’m not sure if it adds anything to the argument though 😀


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## Clodagh (17 May 2022)

Amymay said:



			I think the majority of us would agree with you. But this man sustained life changing injuries (not a simple bash to his pride). I think it’s entirely appropriate to sue for damages in this instance.
		
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And the arrogance of dog owners, sadly. ( is on the rise).


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## SilverLinings (17 May 2022)

Clodagh said:



			And the arrogance of dog owners, sadly. ( is on the rise).
		
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And the ignorance of a lot of them, both in terms of their responsibility to the public and their responsibilities to their dog.

I have been a horse and dog owner for decades, and the number of dogs and the percentage that are poorly behaved has significantly increased in the last few years which I suspect is why more stories are being reported in the press.


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## SEL (17 May 2022)

@Rokele55 dog wasn't pootling though - it was chasing. 

I did a weekend away in Wales years ago where I was told to swap horses with the guide at a certain point on the ride. Turned out my horse was terrified of a donkey were we about to pass and for safety reasons the guide led her on foot. But that was a known hazard at a known place. A dog launching itself across the beach at horses is a different scenario.


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## Sossigpoker (17 May 2022)

Tarragon said:



			I think I am hoping that he doesn't win his case. I think that where horses have to share their space with other members of the public, including places where there can be loose dogs. or children, or kite flying or whatever, then the horse owner, the dog owner, the parent and everyone, all need to be responsible for their actions. As a horse rider, I would be wary of going faster than a walk if I was aware of anything that might be a problem, and he was experienced horse rider. I think all involved in the incident share some responsibility for the accident; the dog owner should have had more control over the dog, the riding school could have seen the loose dog as a risk, the rider was apparently an experienced horse rider and could have made some different decisions based on the horse and the situation. I feel very sorry for all involved. Would a dog owner even have insurance to cover this sort of claim?
		
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The dog was out of control and caused the accident,  why shouldn't the poor msn win the case? This accident would have been avoided had the dog been under control. It's not one of those freak accidents where a bird takes off from a bush and startles the horse. There was a clear cause to it.
If the dog is insured,.it usually includes a public liability cover.


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## Arzada (17 May 2022)

Tarragon said:



			Would a dog owner even have insurance to cover this sort of claim?
		
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Anyone out in public in a car, on a bike, on a horse, with a dog etc or whose horse, dog etc might unintentionally become loose outside the field/yard/house would be wise to have public liability insurance. TBH I think it's madness not to.


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## Velcrobum (17 May 2022)

Clodagh said:



			And the arrogance of dog owners, sadly. ( is on the rise).
		
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Yes as is demonstrated by this incident  which I know is off topic but a good example. 
https://www.fwi.co.uk/news/crime/farmer-hit-with-rock-after-dog-walker-objects-to-ploughing


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## Ambers Echo (17 May 2022)

stormox said:



			How would they prove it was the dog made the horse buck the rider off?  Beaches have kites, surfers, balls dogs.... if a child had kicked a ball under the horse the same thing could have happened. Surely the riding school is at fault here (if anyone is, I would call it an accident) for allowing a person to ride a horse they couldn't control? A horse rider must be in control of their horse just as a dog owner must be in control of their dog.
		
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There are bad luck, no- fault accidents and then there are accidents caused by people being irresponsible, self centred or idiotic.  

Just because we can’t prevent the former, does not mean we should excuse the latter.


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## suestowford (17 May 2022)

I've done a bit of beach riding and have had many encounters with dogs. Yes, I would usually stop as this person apparently did, but there was one time we all got caught out by a sand-coloured dog. None of us saw that one coming!
When we came back along the dunes above the beach we could see where it had happened. There was a line of lovely straight hoofprints, then a curve, then they straightened out again.
Having seen the results of a dog getting too close (dog covered in blood) I am always surprised when people don't think to keep their dog close around large livestock.


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## teapot (17 May 2022)

For those saying up to ride leader to assess how far away a dog is - that's fine but a dog off a lead can move, and move fast, especially in chase mode? So what was a safe distance becomes a not safe distance in seconds.


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## SO1 (17 May 2022)

I didn't say the horses should be bombproof.

I said the ride leader should have identified the loose dog as a hazard. There should have been two guides within the ride especially on a beach which may be busy or have loose dogs. One of ride leaders should have asked the dog owner to put his dog lead before they cantered or waited until they were really really far away. One should never be complacent around loose dogs. I can understand why the client who may be in a desperate situation may have been advised by solicitors to go for both the riding stable and the dog owners. I can also understand the pressure on ride leaders to give clients the experience they want which is lots of cantering on a beach and they might not want to say to clients sorry we are going to have to walk as there are loose dogs that might chase us. 

The dog owner should have known if they are an experienced dog owner that dogs can be unpredictable and got his dog on the lead. I think sadly a lot of dog owners do not realise what could happen if their dog approaches a horse because they have no knowledge of horses. I don't know how this would be rectified. 



Shilasdair said:



			In response to SO1 and others who say that riders and horses should be proof against all risks - or it's their fault - complete nonsense.
There is no way to proof your horse against being harassed, threatened or bitten by a strange dog on a beach.
It's the dog owner's responsibility. 
No riding school can guarantee a horse's behaviour under all circumstances (hence the BHS mantra of 'horses are unpredictable') and it is unreasonable to expect them to do so.
It's interesting the contortions that dog owners are going through on this thread to avoid any responsibility.

I couldn't guarantee that Stepdog wouldn't chase a horse on a beach despite her being used to horses - therefore if I see any horses, Stepdog is on the leash and moving out of the way.   Stepdog doesn't mind- she just enjoys being on the beach with her human and me.
		
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## Wishfilly (17 May 2022)

Given they had cantered and then the rider had come to a halt, I assume the ride leader did assess that the situation had changed and stopped the ride. But unfortunately, that's when the accident happened. 

The next step might be dismounting the ride, but there's lots of reasons why that's a difficult choice for a ride leader to make and it may not be the safest course of action. 

Being a ride leader is hugely difficult and responsible job- often not well paid, either. Of course, it can be a great job, too! But I don't think it's reasonable to suggest that ride leaders can prevent all accidents from happening, if only they make the right decisions.


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## McFluff (17 May 2022)

I really feel for the rider here. Yes, we all take a risk when we get on a horse, but it is hard to accept when your situation was caused by the selfish/ignorant act of someone else.

I‘m lucky enough to ride on the beach weekly - and have done so for many years. The horses are all very used to dogs, and in 99% of situations the dogs are called back, the horses stay calm, and we all are fine. We have a strict protocol, you ask people to put loose dogs on a lead, and if it’s busy, you leave the beach. Even with this, over the years we’ve had some nasty incidents. All caused by the minority of dog owners who have no clue and/or don’t care. I do have to say that lots of dogs and owners are lovely, but it feels like the minority of bad is growing since lockdown. 

Over the years we’ve had very similar situations, and I’ve seen horses that have never reacted before dislodge their rider if a dog is particularly aggressive. The most recent one is a total dude of a horse, who kept it together until the dog actually bit him. 
The worrying trend at the moment is people who’ve ‘rescued‘ dogs from abroad and have no thought of how they will behave in a public place. I’ve seen more issues recently of walkers being hassled by these dogs. I can’t help feeling that it is only a matter of time before there is an injury to a walker or a child round here…. I really hope not, as that will impact on all the responsible people too.


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## Wishfilly (17 May 2022)

SO1 said:



			I didn't say the horses should be bombproof.

I said the ride leader should have identified the loose dog as a hazard. There should have been two guides within the ride especially on a beach which may be busy or have loose dogs. One of ride leaders should have asked the dog owner to put his dog lead before they cantered or waited until they were really really far away. One should never be complacent around loose dogs. I can understand why the client who may be in a desperate situation may have been advised by solicitors to go for both the riding stable and the dog owners. I can also understand the pressure on ride leaders to give clients the experience they want which is lots of cantering on a beach and they might not want to say to clients sorry we are going to have to walk as there are loose dogs that might chase us.

The dog owner should have known if they are an experienced dog owner that dogs can be unpredictable and got his dog on the lead. I think sadly a lot of dog owners do not realise what could happen if their dog approaches a horse because they have no knowledge of horses. I don't know how this would be rectified.
		
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So, what if the dog owner says no? What if the dog is initially far away and makes a sudden run for you? 

The accident happened, according to reports, when the rider's horse was stationary. Obviously we don't know why that was, but for example, it could be they stopped cantering after the dog started to chase, and the ride leader was about to call to the owner when the accident happened. Things can change very quickly.

It's all very well saying ride leaders should be strong enough to remain in walk, but on a shared beach there are always going to be hazards, and sometimes you have to make a reasonable judgement.


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## Goldenstar (17 May 2022)

I grew up on the beach .
We where taught always face the dog and would keep turning the horse to face .
As kids we would leg it at top speed if it was low tide Ford the river and disappear into the distance , it was different then .


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## ponynutz (17 May 2022)

If dog didn't need to be on lead by law it certainly will be an interesting case and rider is likely to lose however the law might therefore be changed to include some common sense.

Most dog walkers I know upon seeing a horse will lead their dog and stand with it out of the way and I'd do the same.

Similarly most horse riders I know upon seeing a dog would take it easy and if the dog wasn't on a lead would request it to be if they knew horse was likely to spook (if it was a riding school horse that I didn't know I'd just assume it would spook to save any potential danger).

Given the dog ran after horses owner should definitely have put a lead on a dog that could clearly cause an issue. Horses won't be interrupting the whole walk...


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## Bob notacob (17 May 2022)

Horse owners are subjected to a legal principle ,no fault liability. If a horse is let out of your field by an unknown person ,you are liable for any losses it causes because it is acting in accord with its nature. I would argue strongly ,that dog owners are to be held liable for exactly the same reason. The case that set this precedent was Mirvahedy V Henley.


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## ester (17 May 2022)

It would seem tricky to me to argue that your dog was under control if it was also underneath a horse, regardless of any local lead laws. . .


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## Bob notacob (17 May 2022)

ester said:



			It would seem tricky to me to argue that your dog was under control if it was also underneath a horse, regardless of any local lead laws. . .
		
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indeed!


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## Bob notacob (17 May 2022)

Sometimes \I wish I had studied law. The master of the rolls told me I should .Trouble was ,I knew I would take every case to heart.


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## Wishfilly (17 May 2022)

Although, if your argument is that you sent your dog under a horse deliberately, surely that must make you somehow culpable in any accident caused?


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## SilverLinings (17 May 2022)

I am alarmed by the large number of dog owners who seem to have absolutely no idea that they are liable if their dog causes an accident of any sort (with very few exceptions), and without insurance they could potentially loose their house to pay the costs. Local bylaws about whether or not a dog should be on a lead in a certain place are irrelevant, the law states that dogs should be under control whether on public or private land, and if you can't control your dog off-lead (excellent recall, keep it to heel if required, get it's attention instantly when needed) then it should be on a lead when there is a chance that other people or animals could be around. I think far too many owners seem to believe that they would only be in trouble legally if their dog bit/attacked someone.

To illustrate this: about 10 years ago a lady I knew through work was walking in a park with a friend when an overexcited labrador ran past and knocked her over. She sustained a complex leg fracture requiring several lots of surgery and nearly a year off work (couldn't drive or weight bear). She successfully sued the dog owner for loss of earnings as she couldn't have survived financially otherwise. She sued for thousands rather than hundreds of thousands or millions, but this would have been different if she had broken her neck when she fell and been paralysed. The dog was said to be harmless and friendly, but was young and known to ignore the owner when he tried to recall it. That dog was 'out of control' according to the law, despite the fact that it was 'just playing' according to the owner.


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## SO1 (17 May 2022)

You are at least then doing all you can to reduce the risks as much as possible.

We don't know what happened in this situation maybe they did ask the owner to put the dog on lead and he refused and they didn't canter until the dog was very far away and it suddenly saw the horses and started chasing.

In that case the rider would have little case for sueing the stables. I do think most riding stables do make people sign disclaimers now saying that clients are riding at their own risk and that riding is a dangerous activity. We even have a notice up at the livery yard saying this.

The risk is less if a dog follows you in walk as the owner is more likely to be able to grab the dog before it gets under the horses legs.

If you are cantering and the dog is chasing it is more scary for horse and the owner if they can't recall won't be able to run fast enough to grab their dog. Horses may have been desensitised to dogs barking or coming close by dogs being on a yard but it is hard to create a situation where it is chased by a dog at speed. The dog doesn't know you are going to pull the horse up and may not stop in time and therefore end up between the horses legs the stomach is vulnerable area for a horse and having a predator under its stomach that has been chasing them at speed could be frightening even for a horse that is good with dogs.

I know it is boring but I think you cannot be too careful about being around loose dogs. There seems to be so many incidents not just with horses but with children and also with dogs attacking other dogs.

Yes there will be other hazards on beaches but they are unlikely to persue or attack a horse.  If you see someone flying a kite you can at least move away from it and it won't persue you. My pony excellent with dogs and traffic absolutely terrified of any sort of fly tipping, plastic bags or rubbish but as least none of these persue or attack him even though he thinks they will do.

I do think if you own a dog you have a responsibility to learn enough about dogs to understand that they can be unpredictable when off the lead and if you are sharing public space with others be very careful and grab your dog or put it on the lead if others are passing until there is a decent gap between you.

My sister never lets her dog off the lead if she can see other people or dogs as she has a staffie and she knows people are often scared of staffies.



Wishfilly said:



			So, what if the dog owner says no? What if the dog is initially far away and makes a sudden run for you?

The accident happened, according to reports, when the rider's horse was stationary. Obviously we don't know why that was, but for example, it could be they stopped cantering after the dog started to chase, and the ride leader was about to call to the owner when the accident happened. Things can change very quickly.

It's all very well saying ride leaders should be strong enough to remain in walk, but on a shared beach there are always going to be hazards, and sometimes you have to make a reasonable judgement.
		
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## Lois Lame (18 May 2022)

'Most people are not knowledgeable about what could potentially frighten a horse. I had someone kick a football towards my pony and it narrowly missed his head. I do not expect members of the public to have this knowledge.'

I totally agree with this statement from SO1. The average non-horse person has no idea at all about horses and their riders. A lot is assumed: that a rider has absolute control and is 100% skillful at riding unless falling off every five minutes.


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## Fred66 (18 May 2022)

We don’t know the circumstances of this incident, the man has suffered a life changing event and presumably needs money to enable his life to be easier, his lawyer is obviously going to paint the picture of the dog being out of control and causing the incident. 
For all we know the Westie was on the beach with its owner minding its own business and the riders came towards them. The Westie may have just stood its ground and barked a warning, and not actually have been out of control at all.
The horse might have reacted not to the dog but to being halted whilst the other riders walked away.
Whilst I agree that dog owners should have control of their dogs the same is true of horse riders in respect of their horse. How many people continue to hack out despite the horse not being good in traffic? How many people can hand on heart say that they always have 100% control of their horse at all times?


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## SEL (18 May 2022)

Fred66 said:



			We don’t know the circumstances of this incident, the man has suffered a life changing event and presumably needs money to enable his life to be easier, his lawyer is obviously going to paint the picture of the dog being out of control and causing the incident.
For all we know the Westie was on the beach with its owner minding its own business and the riders came towards them. The Westie may have just stood its ground and barked a warning, and not actually have been out of control at all.
The horse might have reacted not to the dog but to being halted whilst the other riders walked away.
Whilst I agree that dog owners should have control of their dogs the same is true of horse riders in respect of their horse. How many people continue to hack out despite the horse not being good in traffic? How many people can hand on heart say that they always have 100% control of their horse at all times?
		
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But we do know because they've made representation to the courts. The dog ran towards the horses, ended up under the injured man's horse and he was thrown - none of that seems to be in doubt.

"Perhaps because the horses had passed at speed, perhaps out of curiosity or perhaps out of a sense of fun, Max turned and ran towards the group of horses who had just passed him,' says Mr Arentsen." (Dog owner's barrister)


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## ycbm (18 May 2022)

SilverLinings said:



			without insurance they could potentially loose their house to pay the costs
		
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I'm sorry to nitpick but I don't think you can be thrown out of your home,  though the debt would probably hang over your head until you died and all your spare money would have to go to it.  
.


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## ycbm (18 May 2022)

Fred66 said:



			Whilst I agree that dog owners should have control of their dogs the same is true of horse riders in respect of their horse. How many people continue to hack out despite the horse not being good in traffic? How many people can hand on heart say that they always have 100% control of their horse at all times?
		
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What the devil has that got to do with a man being in a wheelchair for the rest of his life after a dog ran between the legs of a horse he was on? 
.


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## blitznbobs (18 May 2022)

I dont understamd how they were starting their second canter and stationery at the same time… did the rest of the ride
Leave bonfire behind?


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## blitznbobs (18 May 2022)

ycbm said:



			I'm sorry to nitpick but I don't think you can be thrown out of your home,  though the debt would probably hang over your head until you died and all your spare money would have to go to it. 
.
		
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You can definitely lose your home if you own it


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## Red-1 (18 May 2022)

I find it all sad. I feel for the man, who has a changed life and needs to fund adaptations. 

Selfishly, I also feel for me. My last horse never made it to the beach as I felt confident I would control her there, but was too worried about what she would do if a dog attacked. I felt it *could* have ended badly, so didn't go. 

I hope to take the current horse, but will plan it a lot more carefully than the carefree days of boxing up and turning up. 

I think many people will have 3rd party liability insurance with their house contents insurance. That would cover the dog, as well as anything freaky you may do, like run for a bus and go headlong into a "insert valuable thing of choice" and break it.


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## ycbm (18 May 2022)

blitznbobs said:



			You can definitely lose your home if you own it
		
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I think only if you subsequently fail to make payments that you have agreed to make against the debt? 

If you have a claim of,  say £5 million,  against you and have a single home worth,  say  £500k, I don't think you can be forced,  at the outset,  to sell your home and make yourself homeless.  My understanding is that you would agree a payment plan of the maximum you can afford to pay,  just like a bankruptcy (and in fact many people in that situation would just bankrupt themselves).

I may well be wrong,  but I have always understood that you don't lose your home to pay the initial damages,  only if you fail to keep up the regular payments towards paying off the debt.

Whatever,  this case underlines the need for everyone to have 3rd party/public liability insurance.
.


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## Pearlsasinger (18 May 2022)

ycbm said:



			I'm sorry to nitpick but I don't think you can be thrown out of your home,  though the debt would probably hang over your head until you died and all your spare money would have to go to it. 
.
		
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You can if you own it and are required to pay damages to the injured party.  There would be no point if you rent your accommodation.


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## criso (18 May 2022)

SEL said:



			"Perhaps because the horses had passed at speed, perhaps out of curiosity or perhaps out of a sense of fun, Max turned and ran towards the group of horses who had just passed him,' says Mr Arentsen." (Dog owner's barrister)
		
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I think that phrase "sense of fun" says a lot.  I have had someone whose dog was chasing horses in a field say "he likes to play with the horses'


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## The Fuzzy Furry (18 May 2022)

ycbm said:



			I think only if you subsequently fail to make payments that you have agreed to make against the debt? 

If you have a claim of,  say £5 million,  against you and have a single home worth,  say  £500k, I don't think you can be forced,  at the outset,  to sell your home and make yourself homeless.  My understanding is that you would agree a payment plan of the maximum you can afford to pay,  just like a bankruptcy (and in fact many people in that situation would just bankrupt themselves).

I may well be wrong,  but I have always understood that you don't lose your home to pay the initial damages,  only if you fail to keep up the regular payments towards paying off the debt.

Whatever,  this case underlines the need for everyone to have 3rd party/public liability insurance.
.
		
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Generally,  if it means someone unable to meet the fine/charge etc and would be made homeless,  then a legal simple charge would/could be registered at the HMLR against the property. This would then be cleared only when the property was sold or the amount paid off to 3rd party named and then application can be made to have it lifted.
It's quite convoluted tho and am on phone so not typing all out now tho.


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## cauda equina (18 May 2022)

criso said:



			I think that phrase "sense of fun" says a lot.  I have had someone whose dog was chasing horses in a field say "he likes to play with the horses'
		
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Similar to when a dog lunges towards your horse, because 'He just wants to say hello'


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## Fred66 (18 May 2022)

ycbm said:



			What the devil has that got to do with a man being in a wheelchair for the rest of his life after a dog ran between the legs of a horse he was on? 
.
		
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We don’t know that is what happened. We are speculating based on what has been presented so far. The defence barrister said towards not underneath.

People on here have said they only let their dogs off leads if they have 100% recall. No one can be 100% sure that they have 100% recall. How do you train them and test this if you never let them off their lead?

Horses not under control have led to accidents where 3rd parties have been injured or killed, so it has everything to do with it.


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## ycbm (18 May 2022)

Fred66 said:



			We don’t know that is what happened. We are speculating based on what has been presented so far.
		
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We do know that,  it's been presented as the basic facts of the case. I believe that it's undisputed that  the dog was under the horse.




			People on here have said they only let their dogs off leads if they have 100% recall. No one can be 100% sure that they have 100% recall. How do you train them and test this if you never let them off their lead?
		
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You do it on a long lead where there is additional risk,  for example if there are horses around.




			Horses not under control have led to accidents where 3rd parties have been injured or killed, so it has everything to do with it.
		
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Sod all to do with this case. 





If you have a dog,  do you let your dog run free in sight of ridden horses you don't know Fred?
.


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## Goldenstar (18 May 2022)

I happily have my dogs off lead where I can see horses I don’t know they walk beside me, they obliviously because of their lifestyle 100 % horse savvy .


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## Fred66 (18 May 2022)

ycbm said:



			You do it on a long lead where there is additional risk,  for example if there are horses around.
		
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 Whilst this is obviously the starting point it is not the same at all, at some point the dog would have to be off its lead for you to know it will recall and even if it does no one can be 100% sure



ycbm said:



			Sod all to do with this case.
		
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 The general principle of control of animals in relation to how this impacts on third parties safety is certainly linked to this thread.



ycbm said:



			If you have a dog,  do you let your dog run free in sight of ridden horses you don't know Fred?
.
		
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Have 3 and all are good around horses but don’t let them off the lead near them. My daughter occasionally takes the Labrador out hacking with her, but the other two are not as reliable.


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## milliepops (18 May 2022)

i'd have thought the ideal place for practicing recall which is not yet established, would be something like a dog field, not a beach where there are all kinds of randomers using the same space who might not appreciate your non-recalling dog approaching them.


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## YorksG (18 May 2022)

The problem with teaching a totally reliable recall, in a secure field, is that you can't replicate the distractions that occur in the real world. A long line can work, as can starting early in the dogs life, but actually concentrating on your dog while out and about is one of the biggest requirements.


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## cauda equina (18 May 2022)

And if you don't have totally reliable recall (which I guess is the case with the majority of non-working dogs) you stay alert to possible distractions and/or hazards, and put the dog back on the lead before trouble arises


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## Fred66 (18 May 2022)

milliepops said:



			i'd have thought the ideal place for practicing recall which is not yet established, would be something like a dog field, not a beach where there are all kinds of randomers using the same space who might not appreciate your non-recalling dog approaching them.
		
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Most beaches used by holidaymakers don’t allow dogs off leads (if at all) . If I go on a beach or other public area where dogs off leads are expressly allowed then I am prepared for the fact that I might have random visits from other peoples dogs. 

Regarding this case then I am genuinely sympathetic to the person who has had his life changed, and if the dog did cause the accident then I hope he succeeds in at least part of his claim. However I am also aware of potential ramifications in respect of the outcome.


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## Birker2020 (18 May 2022)

Fred66 said:



			Most beaches used by holidaymakers don’t allow dogs off leads (if at all) . If I go on a beach or other public area where dogs off leads are expressly allowed then I am prepared for the fact that I might have random visits from other peoples dogs.

Regarding this case then I am genuinely sympathetic to the person who has had his life changed, and if the dog did cause the accident then I hope he succeeds in his claim. However I am also aware of potential ramifications in respect of the outcome.
		
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Every beach we went on over the past four of five years that is dog friendly allows dogs off leads.  But we only have our dog of the lead if she is away from other dogs, so we find a more secluded part of the beach, we watch her like a hawk and as soon as another dog comes within her range or she puts her head up to look at one, the lead goes on. 

Partner always operates this system if he is walking her over the park too.  But this is more for other dogs than her as she borders slightly towards nervous aggressive with other dogs, growls, has never bitten but we are still wary.

Of course in practice this doesn't work every time as she has very selective hearing as she is a beagle and this frustrates my partner no end.  As she is soooo very picky about treats, recall has never been a guaranteed exercise.  

Here is the pest


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## Fred66 (18 May 2022)

Birker2020 said:



			Every beach we went on over the past four of five years that is dog friendly allows dogs off leads.  But we only have our dog of the lead if she is away from other dogs, so we find a more secluded part of the beach, we watch her like a hawk and as soon as another dog comes within her range or she puts her head up to look at one, the lead goes on. Partner always operates this system if he is walking her over the park too.  But this is more for other dogs than her as she borders slightly towards nervous aggressive with other dogs, growls, has never bitten but we are still wary.

Of course in practice this doesn't work every time as she has very selective hearing as she is a beagle and this frustrates my partner no end.  As she is soooo very picky about treats, recall has never been a guaranteed exercise.
		
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My brothers dog is soft with people but doesn’t like other dogs invading her space, she avoids them. My brother regularly used to walk her off the lead as her recall was excellent and she never had any desire to go sniff another dog. It used to annoy him no end when other people’s off lead dogs would approach his and they would shout “it’s ok mines friendly“ he would reply with “well mines not” and then they would tell him his should be on a lead then. His reply was why ? it’s not wandering off and annoying anyone. My terriers have never met her as they wouldn’t respect her boundaries and it would be a bloodbath, she tolerates my Labrador as she puts him in his place and he stays there.


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## dreamcometrue (18 May 2022)

There is only one person to blame for this and that is the dog’s owner.  The dog was the aggressor and the cause of the events that led to the awful injuries of the rider.  The dog’s owner allowed this to happen by not having his/ her dog under control.  

I’ve been thrown from my pony by a dog running towards us and leaping over a wall.  I saw the dog coming from a distance and had called to the owner to not let his (big) dog jump the wall but he had zero recall of the dog.  My horse reared and span and I hit the ground on my lower back.  Luckily I didn’t break it.

I had too many dog incidents in that area and I moved yards eventually.


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## Amymay (18 May 2022)

Fred66 said:



			Most beaches used by holidaymakers don’t allow dogs off leads (if at all) .
		
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That’s not accurate.  Many have a dog ban in place between the end of May and 1st September.  Where a dog is allowed (on a beach), as ever, they are required in law to be under control.  _Some_ beaches _may_ have a bylaw requiring dogs to be on a lead.  But they are very few.




			If I go on a beach or other public area where dogs off leads are expressly allowed then I am prepared for the fact that I might have random visits from other peoples dogs.
		
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So do I, unless I’m on a horse or with a child.


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## Birker2020 (18 May 2022)

Fred66 said:



			My brothers dog is soft with people but doesn’t like other dogs invading her space, she avoids them. My brother regularly used to walk her off the lead as her recall was excellent and she never had any desire to go sniff another dog. It used to annoy him no end when other people’s off lead dogs would approach his and they would shout “it’s ok mines friendly“ he would reply with “well mines not” and then they would tell him his should be on a lead then. His reply was why ? it’s not wandering off and annoying anyone. My terriers have never met her as they wouldn’t respect her boundaries and it would be a bloodbath, she tolerates my Labrador as she puts him in his place and he stays there.
		
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This is the problem, other dogs, not so much her.
She was constantly 'mauled' shall we say by a dog a woman who worked where my partner worked and she started bringing her dog into work and poor Summer was basically accosted all day long by this dog trying to hump her. 

So she started cringing down, tail between her legs, scruff up growling at anything that came within a couple of metres of her.  She's better with bitches as she knows they won't molest her but its such a shame as it totally destroyed her confidence.


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## Fred66 (18 May 2022)

Amymay said:



			That’s not accurate.  Many have a dog ban in place between the end of May and 1st September.  Where a dog is allowed (on a beach), as ever, they are required in law to be under control.  _Some_ beaches _may_ have a bylaw requiring dogs to be on a lead.  But they are very few.



So do I, unless I’m on a horse or with a child.
		
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Hence why I put holiday makers and why I said dogs were only allowed on leads and sometimes not at all (ie banned). There is generally a “holiday” season and out of season more beaches are open to dogs and some allow them off the lead and some don’t.

I wasn’t saying that dogs should go “visiting“ just that if I didn’t want to be visited by random dogs then I would avoid places that allow them off leads.


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## Fred66 (18 May 2022)

dreamcometrue said:



			There is only one person to blame for this and that is the dog’s owner.  The dog was the aggressor and the cause of the events that led to the awful injuries of the rider.  The dog’s owner allowed this to happen by not having his/ her dog under control. 

I’ve been thrown from my pony by a dog running towards us and leaping over a wall.  I saw the dog coming from a distance and had called to the owner to not let his (big) dog jump the wall but he had zero recall of the dog.  My horse reared and span and I hit the ground on my lower back.  Luckily I didn’t break it.

I had too many dog incidents in that area and I moved yards eventually.
		
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Glad your incident didn’t result in a serious injury to you.

Regarding the case in question then its a good job you aren’t on the jury as the case is ongoing and not all evidence has been heard so I prefer to not jump to a conclusion ahead of it.


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## MagicMelon (18 May 2022)

Fred66 said:



			Regarding the case in question then its a good job you aren’t on the jury as the case is ongoing and not all evidence has been heard so I prefer to not jump to a conclusion ahead of it.
		
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Thing is, what evidence is needed? Unless a plastic bag flew out as the dog started running under the horses legs and it was the bag that spooked te horse, I dont see how its a pretty obvious conclusion. The dog was off lead and outwith any control, it went under the horse (or at least close enough) for the horse to spook. Dog owner is at fault.


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## ThreeFurs (19 May 2022)

"No riding school can guarantee a horse's behaviour under all circumstances (hence the BHS mantra of 'horses are unpredictable') and it is unreasonable to expect them to do so."

Absolutely agree. There was an incident here years back during a group beach ride, when in the middle of the ride one of the horses suffered a massive, fatal heart attack, and as it went into arrhythmia, it reared over backwards. The beginner rider was badly hurt. Really hard to predict this .. but it happened.


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## blitznbobs (19 May 2022)

It will be an interesting case. Legally it will hinge on what was reasonable and what should be expected. Given the guy was an experienced rider, he actually bares more of the responsibility - the more 'expert' you are at something the more you should understand what could go on. Is it reasonable to expect that dogs are off the lead on a public beach? Is it 'normal' for some of those dogs to be out of control? Had the westie ever done anything like this before? Was the horse known to be scared of dogs? Did the rest of the group canter off and this guy halt? Could it be argued that this was the cause of 'the explosion'... So many questions that need to be answered to get a liable or not liable verdict... or a partial liability etc. Riding is a risk sport, a lot of dogs are badly behaved, not all horses tolerate dogs, a lot horses definitely don't like being separated from their group. All things that will be weighed up by the judge/ jury and a conclusion of liability reached... I'm keen to read the verdict tbh it will be an interesting read from a legal perspective and not quite as open and shut as some people might think.


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## milliepops (19 May 2022)

Accepting that some dogs are inevitably out of control when there are laws that state they should not be, sounds like a downward spiral in dog-owner behaviour to me.


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## blitznbobs (19 May 2022)

milliepops said:



			Accepting that some dogs are inevitably out of control when there are laws that state they should not be, sounds like a downward spiral in dog-owner behaviour to me.
		
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The law is the law — its not necessarily right


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## TPO (19 May 2022)

blitznbobs said:



			The law is the law — its not necessarily right
		
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Eh??

The law IS the law and that's why this case is going to court; because its legally viable.

Also it shouldn't *have* to be law. How can not having your dog under control possibly be right??? I mean the law says that dogs should be under control and you think that is "not necessarily right"?! 🤯

Edited to fix an autocorrect


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## blitznbobs (20 May 2022)

TPO said:



			Eh??

The law IS the law and that's why this case is going to court; because its legally viable.

Also it shouldn't *have* to be law. How can not having your dog under control possibly be right??? I mean the law says that dogs should be under control and you think that is "not necessarily right"?! 
Edited to fix an autocorrect
		
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I definitely think its right that a dog should be under control. I also think its right that a horse should be under control. The law sees riding a horse as a risk sport. The law also sees liability all over the place (someone falls down a broken staircase whilst they are burglarising your house can sue you for damages) as i say ‘the law is the law’ its not necessarily right but it is what it is.

All i am saying is the case isnt open and shut and even if we knew all the details it wont necessarily go one way or the other. Liability isnt just about right and wrong you have to show duty of care, causation, lots of elements- if for example he halted the horse because of the yappy dog and the rest galloped on, it is almost impossible to know if the horse bucked because it was reined in or because it saw the dog. If the riding school  knew the horse was afraid of dogs and still let someone ride it on an open public beach then that suggests some liability. If i can see a Lot of angles the defence barrister could take then a good defence barrister will see more and all he/she needs to do is muddy the water enough to make the case unclear to anyone. Should a dog be undercontrol . Yes. Does that mean a court will find the dog owner liable - not at all.

I think it shpuld definitely go to court im just saying im nit sure what the outcome would be… but im v interested to find out.


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## Tiddlypom (20 May 2022)

It's the defence's job to muddy the waters and to create doubt.


Let's hope that the jury sees through that, and gives their verdicts based on the facts of the case.


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## ycbm (20 May 2022)

Fred66 said:



			If I go on a beach or other public area where dogs off leads are expressly allowed then I am prepared for the fact that I might have random visits from other peoples dogs.
		
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I'm partially sighted.  I can't see to my far right from half way up,  down to the floor and across my feet.  If a dog runs under my feet it's a series hazard to me.  Tripping at my age could result in broken bones.  A major cause of death in people a bit older than me is a broken hip. 

Since  being close to being attacked when a man nearly couldn't hold his rottweilers, who went for me,  I am also very wary of dogs I don't know.  Some people are very afraid of dogs, to the point of terror.  Should they never go on a beach? 

Children can easily be intimidated or knocked over by a dog.  Is there a height limit these random dogs should have to abide by before they "visit" a human without invitation? 

Why should anyone ever have to put up with other people's dogs running up to them anywhere?

Why does anyone think they have a right to impose their dog(s) on anyone else? 
.


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## ycbm (20 May 2022)

blitznbobs said:



			I definitely think its right that a dog should be under control. I also think its right that a horse should be under control.
		
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One's a predator,  the other is a flight animal,  they don't compare. 
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## scats (20 May 2022)

We are surrounded be beaches and the nearest is 1 mile from my yard.  A few years ago a yard teen and her horse boxed to the beach, with her mum.  Although the beach is 1 mile away, it does involve a very busy main road which is the main route through from the top of the Wirral.
I was happily mucking out when I was met by the sound of hooves and teens panicked horse appeared, saddle under belly, hi viz trailing and white with foam.
After an initial panic where I had visions of teen lying in a road, I found out that they’d been chased by a dog on the beach, horse had ditched teen and galloped home. By some miracle, as he galloped from side road to main road, the traffic had been backed up by a road sweeper.
I rarely to never use the beach, despite it being so close. Its dog heaven on there and you just can’t trust people, sadly.

I have 3 dogs myself, but if we encounter a horse out and about, I call JD to me (she is brilliant around horses fwiw so I don’t need to put her on lead as she won’t leave my side until I say) and I get hold of the two little ones until horse is well passed.  I have trained them all recall with the help of tasty treats, so know I can get them to come in any circumstance.  
Our favourite dog walking area is open to horse riders as well.  Think that has helped my dogs become accustomed to them out and about, but we do occasionally see a dog owner struggling to get a dog away from a horse.


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## Ambers Echo (20 May 2022)

Fred66 said:



			Most beaches used by holidaymakers don’t allow dogs off leads (if at all) . If I go on a beach or other public area where dogs off leads are expressly allowed then I am prepared for the fact that I might have random visits from other peoples dogs.
		
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We spend all summer at a beach. My dog likes paddling with the kids but when they want to swim properly I call her back to me as she’d try to swim for too long otherwise. Last summer she started taking  the straightest line back to me - over other peoples picnic rugs and towels and straight through the middle of their beach camps 🙈🙈 So we’ve stopped allowing that now but the people on that beach were very good natured about it. There were plenty of dogs  around and people were very accepting. Even an obedient dog can cause an accident - knocking someone over while being recalled. But I don’t think that is any excuse for allowing your dog to be out of control. That’s like saying drink driving is ok because sober people crash sometimes too. The risk of an issue is so much higher.


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## ILuvCowparsely (20 May 2022)

I don't see why the riding school should be blamed, the guy was riding fine till the damn dog chased.

Otherwise where would it stop.

 Blame the hire company for an accident while your hiring the car or van.
Blame the supermarket for you dropping your eggs outside the shop


  Sorry Dog owner responsible and rider sadly should not involve the stables,  he was the one in charge of the horse.


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## CanteringCarrot (20 May 2022)

I'm not sure exactly how the suit was filed and worded/how the blame or responsibility was placed on the riding school. I'd also think that you must sign a waiver of sorts before the ride? Not sure how that all works with riding schools/holiday rides over there.


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## ester (20 May 2022)

You do but they are generally considered legally unenforceable


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## CanteringCarrot (20 May 2022)

Oh yes, right, I forgot about that.


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## blitznbobs (20 May 2022)

ycbm said:



			One's a predator,  the other is a flight animal,  they don't compare. 
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But they do in law - you should be in control of your animal in public - if you are not you are in the wrong


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## blitznbobs (20 May 2022)

ILuvCowparsely said:



			I don't see why the riding school should be blamed, the guy was riding fine till the damn dog chased.

Otherwise where would it stop.

 Blame the hire company for an accident while your hiring the car or van.
Blame the supermarket for you dropping your eggs outside the shop


  Sorry Dog owner responsible and rider sadly should not involve the stables,  he was the one in charge of the horse.
		
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You can definitely sue the hire company if you crash and they have to show the car was in good repair … if they cant then they could be deemed liable


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## blitznbobs (20 May 2022)

ILuvCowparsely said:



			I don't see why the riding school should be blamed, the guy was riding fine till the damn dog chased.

Otherwise where would it stop.

 Blame the hire company for an accident while your hiring the car or van.
Blame the supermarket for you dropping your eggs outside the shop


  Sorry Dog owner responsible and rider sadly should not involve the stables,  he was the one in charge of the horse.
		
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What if the horse had only been backed for a week or was known to have kissing spines And regularly dumped riders at that exact spot ?? Until you know all the details its not possible to comment really.


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## ycbm (20 May 2022)

blitznbobs said:



			What if the horse had only been backed for a week or was known to have kissing spines And regularly dumped riders at that exact spot ?? Until you know all the details its not possible to comment really.
		
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I think it's still possible to comment that the dog should not have been under the horse.  I understand your argument that there may not be legal liability for the injuries but I can't accept that the owner of the dog was not still at fault for allowing their dog to be under a horse they didn't know.


.


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## ycbm (20 May 2022)

blitznbobs said:



			But they do in law - you should be in control of your animal in public - if you are not you are in the wrong
		
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I don't think you're right about this.  It's a legal requirement to be in control of a dog,  but I don't think anyone breaks any criminal law if they fall off their horse and it runs home,  do they?  I've looked and I can't find any laws.

ETA I don't see how it would be possible to even frame a law making it a legal requirement to be in control of a flight animal.  Any of us could lose control of a panicked horse any time we ride. Similarly,  there's no rule that you have to keep a cat under control,  because once they are outside,  you can't.
.


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## ponynutz (20 May 2022)

We also live near 3 or 4 beaches (really it's all one big beach but split into towns, you get the idea) and dogs are almost always under control. Many are kept on their leads and every time we ride you see owners putting their dogs on leads. The only ones that remain off are the ones that don't leave their owner's sides. If people want to continue throwing a ball they'll take their dogs to another part of the beach.

We did have one incident (not with the horses but with our own dogs) where a dog was out of control and came to say hi to our, unfriendly and resource-guarding dog. The ending wasn't a great one... people should be keeping their dogs in control.

Dogs are hunters, horses are prey: fact. If a horse runs a dog is either going to think it's a game and run to play or they're going to think it's a chase and run after.


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## spotty_pony (20 May 2022)

I’m pretty sure he would have to have signed a disclaimer at the riding school before he went out on the hack. As for the dog, I agree it should have been on a lead as it acted in an ‘out of control’ manner.


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## blitznbobs (21 May 2022)

ycbm said:



			I don't think you're right about this.  It's a legal requirement to be in control of a dog,  but I don't think anyone breaks any criminal law if they fall off their horse and it runs home,  do they?  I've looked and I can't find any laws.

ETA I don't see how it would be possible to even frame a law making it a legal requirement to be in control of a flight animal.  Any of us could lose control of a panicked horse any time we ride. Similarly,  there's no rule that you have to keep a cat under control,  because once they are outside,  you can't.
.
		
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It is your fault if they cause any damage. 

There is an extra act about dogs worrying livestock on farms etc but i dont think that applies on a public beach because livestock shouldn’t be on a public beach - that would be an interesting case - i doubt there is a lot of case law around it. But if you fell off your horse it ran off and caused a crash or damage to someones garden or kicked someone on the way through - yes that is your fault because you are not in control of your animal.

I think there is a misunderstanding of the word illegal - mostly its unlawful not to have control of animals rather than illegal… but i cant remember if the control of dogs act (livestock ) is in the criminal realm or still civil — i doubt many have gone to prison though.


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## ycbm (21 May 2022)

You are legally liable if your horse causes an accident after you've fallen off it,  yes. But there is a world of difference between allowing your dog to get under the feet of a horse you don't know and falling off your horse and it running off.

Here's a good article about laws relating to dogs.  I don't think there are any such criminal laws relating to control of horses. 

https://www.bluecross.org.uk/advice/dog/dog-laws-uk
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## Goldenstar (21 May 2022)

ycbm said:



			I don't think you're right about this.  It's a legal requirement to be in control of a dog,  but I don't think anyone breaks any criminal law if they fall off their horse and it runs home,  do they?  I've looked and I can't find any laws.

ETA I don't see how it would be possible to even frame a law making it a legal requirement to be in control of a flight animal.  Any of us could lose control of a panicked horse any time we ride. Similarly,  there's no rule that you have to keep a cat under control,  because once they are outside,  you can't.
.
		
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If your horse when lose causes damage to a third parties property or person you are liable no negligence needs to proved .


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## ycbm (21 May 2022)

Goldenstar said:



			If your horse when lose causes damage to a third parties property or person you are liable no negligence needs to proved .
		
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Nobody ever disputed that, only the "requirement" to be in control of a horse being equal to the requirement to be in control of a dog.
.


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## scats (21 May 2022)

Just a musing- if a dog slips it’s lead/pulls it’s owner over or gets away and causes an accident, could the owner still be responsible coz it was out of control in a public place?  Even if the dog got away, rather than being let off.
But if a rider falls off a horse and it bolts and causes an accident, provided they have insurance, I assume they are in no way responsible?


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## Gallop_Away (21 May 2022)

Hmm this is a very interesting case. I will be very interested to see where this goes.

My personal opinion I think the judge will award damages to the claimant, but will likely reduce them as they will find partially liability on his/and or riding schools part. 

In my opinion this is a case of a six of one, half a dozen of the other. 

Firstly the dog should have been under controll and should have been recalled. If the dog had a poor recall it should be on a lead. This is the legally requirement for dog owners regardless of whether there is no legal requirement on that particular beach for dogs to be on a lead. 

BUT

That said, I also think as riders we take some responsibility when we choose to get on a horse and there is a certain level of control of a situation I would expect an "experienced" rider to have of their horse even in these sorts of situations. For example an experienced rider should know techniques to try and keep the horse calm and under control e.g. turning horse to face the dog, or if feeling the horse is likely to rear/buck/tank off, circling the horse around and bringing it's head into the shoulder etc.

Also while I completely agree that there is no such thing as a bombproof horse, this seems an extreme reaction from the average steady riding school horse, and imo raises a lot of questions. Were the riding school aware that this horse disliked dogs? Has this horse ever done anything like this before? Has this horse had recently checks to make sure there are no ongoing pain related issues? Are there other factors to consider like the horse had become isolated from the group and panicked? 

I think there is more to this case than simply saying it's all down to the dog owner. I will be really interested to hear the outcome.


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## criso (21 May 2022)

Gallop_Away said:



			Also while I completely agree that there is no such thing as a bombproof horse, this seems an extreme reaction from the average steady riding school horse, and imo raises a lot of questions. Were the riding school aware that this horse disliked dogs? Has this horse ever done anything like this before? Has this horse had recently checks to make sure there are no ongoing pain related issues? Are there other factors to consider like the horse had become isolated from the group and panicked? 

.
		
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This was from the riders lawyer

"Bonfire was comfortable around dogs. The company, which serves 6,000 customers a year, keeps dogs loose at the stables so horses can acclimatise to them and any which are not comfortable around dogs would be sold."

I also think that on balance if the dog was underneath the horse and that the horse bucked at that point, it's more likely to be a reaction to the dog than an underlying pain issue.


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## Gallop_Away (21 May 2022)

But then that to me raises even more questions. If this horse was "comfortable around dogs" this reaction to a dog running underneath it seems even more bizarre. Why THIS dog? If the dog had bitten or jumped up at the horse I could understand but presumably this horse has had dogs running around it's legs before without issue?


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## Amymay (21 May 2022)

Gallop_Away said:



			But then that to me raises even more questions. If this horse was "comfortable around dogs" this reaction to a dog running underneath it seems even more bizarre. Why THIS dog? If the dog had bitten or jumped up at the horse I could understand but presumably this horse has had dogs running around it's legs before without issue?
		
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It still doesn’t matter. Dog was out of control. Horse reacted. Man fell off and is paralysed.


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## Gallop_Away (21 May 2022)

Amymay said:



			It still doesn’t matter. Dog was out of control. Horse reacted. Man fell off and is paralysed.
		
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But I'm afraid it will matter in court. I'm sorry but I don't think this case is as black and white as that, and I don't think a judge will see it that way either.


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## Keith_Beef (21 May 2022)

criso said:



			"Bonfire was comfortable around dogs. The company, which serves 6,000 customers a year, keeps dogs loose at the stables so horses can acclimatise to them and any which are not comfortable around dogs would be sold."
		
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I think that this detail will turn out to be very relevant in the case.

There are dogs that road around at liberty in all four yards where I have ridden in the town where I live, and I expect that this is very common.

Where I have my regular Sunday morning lesson there are three dogs. The oldest (dark coated with a kind of Labrador shape) doesn't move around much, between the shade and the sunshine depending on if he feels to cold or to hot.

The other two (a Collie cross and a Malinois cross) are young and much more boisterous but are very respectful around the horses sand never get to close. When we are riding in the arena, they stay out; when the arena is empty they will run right across it and charge around like hooligans.

These are dogs who know how to behave around horses, and horses who have been around dogs like this would, I'm sure, be very frightened by a dog that behaved very differently, i.e. a dog that, instead of staying a respectful distance away, ran between the  horse's legs and under its belly.


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## criso (21 May 2022)

Gallop_Away said:



			But then that to me raises even more questions. If this horse was "comfortable around dogs" this reaction to a dog running underneath it seems even more bizarre. Why THIS dog? If the dog had bitten or jumped up at the horse I could understand but presumably this horse has had dogs running around it's legs before without issue?
		
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We don't know that the dog didn't bite, the rider wouldn't have been able to see, the owner may not have noticed and even if they did may not divulge. 

As I said upthread, my really good with dogs tb did use his legs on a border collie that nipped at his heels.  It was more a push than a kick but had the owner not turned up and got their dog, it may have escalated.  That owner thought their dog was only playing too.


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## criso (21 May 2022)

Keith_Beef said:



			I think that this detail will turn out to be very relevant in the case.

There are dogs that road around at liberty in all four yards where I have ridden in the town where I live, and I expect that this is very common.

Where I have my regular Sunday morning lesson there are three dogs. The oldest (dark coated with a kind of Labrador shape) doesn't move around much, between the shade and the sunshine depending on if he feels to cold or to hot.

The other two (a Collie cross and a Malinois cross) are young and much more boisterous but are very respectful around the horses sand never get to close. When we are riding in the arena, they stay out; when the arena is empty they will run right across it and charge around like hooligans.

These are dogs who know how to behave around horses, and horses who have been around dogs like this would, I'm sure, be very frightened by a dog that behaved very differently, i.e. a dog that, instead of staying a respectful distance away, ran between the  horse's legs and under its belly.
		
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The horse I mentioned with the collie was happy with dogs under his legs and on one yard a chicken though he ignored the chicken so much he trod on its leg and it had a limp after that.

However he was also able to make his feelings felt when a dog was aggressive.


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## oldie48 (21 May 2022)

Just musing generally, if the dog was regularly walked off lead on that beach and had been for a several years, had seen the horses having their canters and never reacted, the dog owner might argue that if had no knowledge/awareness that the dog might on this occasion react differently. Is the "but it's never happened before" a defence?


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## Gallop_Away (21 May 2022)

criso said:



			We don't know that the dog didn't bite, the rider wouldn't have been able to see, the owner may not have noticed and even if they did may not divulge.

As I said upthread, my really good with dogs tb did use his legs on a border collie that nipped at his heels.  It was more a push than a kick but had the owner not turned up and got their dog, it may have escalated.  That owner thought their dog was only playing too.
		
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True but then there were also the other riders and guide presumably close by. If the dog had bitten it's likely one of the other riders would have seen. 

Equally my horses are used for hunting and regularly have hounds running around them. So if one of mine reacted in such an extreme manner to a dog running underneath them I would be very concerned and think there was a lot more to it. 

As I say all this is only speculation as none of us were there. I will definitely be following this case with interest and will be very interested to hear the judgement.


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## CanteringCarrot (21 May 2022)

Edit: never mind. Answered my own question by doing my own research 😅


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## The Fuzzy Furry (21 May 2022)

I think it will come down to how much the loose dog was a contributing factor which led to the accident, if the rider had stopped because the dog was loose, what (if anything) the rider and ride leader could have done, and what the dog owner could have done.

We all have had dog related incidents whether hacking,  on comp sites or even in an arena.  

As always though,  'lessons will be learned' - but not necessarily be applied in the future - as every incident is different.


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## Tiddlypom (21 May 2022)

Most horses which are used to dogs can tell the difference between a non threatening dog wandering around near or under it and a dog which means them harm.

So yes, the most dog proof of horses might well react violently if it thinks it is in danger.


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## Gallop_Away (21 May 2022)

Tiddlypom said:



			Most horses which are used to dogs can tell the difference between a non threatening dog wandering around near or under it and a dog which means them harm.

So yes, the most dog proof of horses might well react violently if it thinks it is in danger.
		
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Do we know the dog meant harm? All we know is that the dog ran under the horse. There seems
to be a great deal of speculation going on here.

Ultimately the facts that we know are, that a dog ran under an apparently "dog proof" horse and an, by his own description, experienced rider was not able to keep the horse from reacting and fell off.

Based on those while it may seem that the dog is the initial cause there are also further factors at play that may limit the liability of the dog's owner.

I think ultimately the man will be awarded some damages but I don't think the judge will find entirely against the defendent dog owner.

An experienced rider should have taken some action themselves to mitigate the circumstances, and imo an apparent "dog proof" horse should not have had such an extreme reaction to a dog running underneath it, and so therefore is not dog proof and so probably unsuitable for a riding school to be using as a mount for client's in an area they are very likely to come across dogs.


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## Amymay (21 May 2022)

Deleted. It’s like hitting your head against a brick wall 🤷🏻‍♀️


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## Tiddlypom (21 May 2022)

Gallop_Away said:



			Do we know the dog meant harm? All we know is that the dog ran under the horse. There seems to be a great deal of speculation going on here.
		
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No, we don't, and if you read my post I did not speculate whether *this dog*, the elderly Westie, meant harm or not.

Yes, we get it that you have hunted and your horses are used to hounds *blah, blah*. I have hunted too, and there is a world of difference between hounds milling around your horse but basically ignoring it, and a dog coming in to attack your horse 🤷‍♀️.

If you expect your horse to stand quietly and not to react if it genuinely feels threatened, then you do not seem to understand horses very well.

I nearly got sent home once on the hunting field when a hound crashed out of a hedge behind me into my horse's hind legs, and despite normally being dog proof he kicked out in surprise. I got a right royal dressing down by the master. A senior member of the field took me under his wing and said that he'd seen that it was just an accident, and to tuck in behind him for the rest of the day, so I did. The horse never kicked at any other canine again.


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## Gallop_Away (21 May 2022)

Tiddlypom there really is no need for rudeness. I'm just as entitled to offer my opinion as you on the subject.

I understand horses perfectly well but thank you for such a patronising and rude comment all the same.

Also having worked in the legal profession for over 10 years I also know a fair bit about the legal process and how these sorts of cases work.

As I say we do not know that this dog did anything to make this horse feel threatened or "attacked" the horse in any manner. You are speculating I'm afraid. All we know is that it ran under its legs. For whatever reason the horse reacted and reacted in am extreme manner.

ETA I have not once said the dog owner is blameless. Only that I think there are other factors a court will likely consider, and may find also contributed to the accident

I also never said I expected a horse to "stand quietly" whilst feeling threatened or if a dog meant to attack. I actually said in my post above that had the dog bitten or attacked the horse I would have said what it did was an understandable reaction. However we don't know that this dog did any of these things, only that it ran under the horse. Hence why I think there is a lot more to this case.


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## fidleyspromise (21 May 2022)

My horse is used to my dogs running around and comfortable with loose dogs however I'm not sure how she'd react to a dog running under her. 
I suspect she wouldn't react however if we'd been cantering her adrenaline would be up and there's a chance she react more than she would than if we'd been for a walking hack.


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## milliepops (21 May 2022)

I have no legal knowledge whatsoever but from my POV it doesn't really matter whether a horse can reasonably be expected to tolerate a strange dog under its legs, if that strange dog shouldn't have been running lose around the horse in the first place. 

i would expect all of mine to react FWIW. they have all had lots of contact with dogs but generally they like to face them. and again i perhaps have less tolerant views because i don't own dogs and loose dogs approaching me with no recall does my head in.


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## I'm Dun (21 May 2022)

Gallop_Away said:



			As I say we do not know that this dog did anything to make this horse feel threatened or "attacked" the horse in any manner. You are speculating I'm afraid. All we know is that it ran under its legs. For whatever reason the horse reacted and reacted in am extreme manner.
.
		
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Its doesn't matter though. The dog was deemed to be out of control and it law that makes the dogs owner responsible. If the dog had been on a lead or at heel then your arguments would be true. But this dog was off lead and away from its owner


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## Ambers Echo (21 May 2022)

Gallop_Away said:



			But then that to me raises even more questions. If this horse was "comfortable around dogs" this reaction to a dog running underneath it seems even more bizarre. Why THIS dog? If the dog had bitten or jumped up at the horse I could understand but presumably this horse has had dogs running around it's legs before without issue?
		
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Context is everything to a flight animals. There are chickens on the farm and Lottie is fine with them in her stable, milling about her legs, getting under her. One flapped out of her haybox where it had buried itself this morning and she did not react at all. But I am confident that a strange bird flapping around her head or legs would cause her to react.

There is a world of difference to prey animals between 'this furry thing at home who I have learned is harmless' and 'this unknown creature away from home who may mean me harm'.

The only time I have seen Dolly properly freak out was when a boot came off her front leg in water and then floated away, touching her back leg. She was not scared of boots but an unexpected boot in the wrong place was very scary to her.


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## milliepops (21 May 2022)

context and expectation too...  One of mine unexpectedly/unusually touched his waterbucket with a hindleg when turning around after entering the stable the other day and nearly jumped over the wall with shock!

My geldings are stabled on a yard with lurchers running free. On the whole they are fine with them twirling around i am not sure they'd understand that a terrier was the same thing though...?  so a horse may be alright with dogs that are a recognisable type from body shape/movement patterns etc, but a different type of dog may appear to be totally different to them.  of course we know that a dachshund  is a dog in the same way that a whippet is a dog, but a horse probably has no way to link the 2 to understand that they are probably both safe.


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## Gallop_Away (21 May 2022)

Time will tell but I suspect a judge won't view the picture as so black and white. It's certainly a case I'll be following with great interest.


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## criso (21 May 2022)

In terms of the court case, would this be decided by a jury? In which case the fine points of control and  legal responsibility are less important than who the jury sympathises with.  And they may well side with the little fluffy white dog who just ran up out of "a sense of fun" and probably just wanted to play.


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## Gallop_Away (21 May 2022)

This is a civil case which in the UK is decided by a judge. Juries are only usually used for criminal cases here. So the outcome of this case will be decided by a judge.


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## honetpot (21 May 2022)

spotty_pony said:



			I’m pretty sure he would have to have signed a disclaimer at the riding school before he went out on the hack. As for the dog, I agree it should have been on a lead as it acted in an ‘out of control’ manner.
		
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 I do not think you can sign your legal rights away, the disclaimer should only make sure you realise there are risks, not to absolve the person providing the service from trying to prevent harm. You would expect your driving instructor to keep you safe, have qualifications and proper insurance, not say if you drive you could have an accident and it would never be my fault.


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## criso (21 May 2022)

Gallop_Away said:



			This is a civil case which in the UK is decided by a judge. Juries are only usually used for criminal cases here. So the outcome of this case will be decided by a judge.
		
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Thanks, it just struck me that i didn't know and it wasn't clear from the report.


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## Keith_Beef (21 May 2022)

Gallop_Away said:



			Do we know the dog meant harm? All we know is that the dog ran under the horse. There seems
to be a great deal of speculation going on here.
		
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You're absolutely right that there's a lot of speculation going on, because we don't have access to all the information that will be presented during the case

But  I don't think that "Do we know the dog meant harm?" is really relevant. I don't believe that we can ever truly know the intention of an animal in circumstances like these. Moreover, if we try to compare this incident to an assault by one human on another, the intent of the former is secondary to the threat perceived by the latter.


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## Gallop_Away (21 May 2022)

Keith_Beef said:



			You're absolutely right that there's a lot of speculation going on, because we don't have access to all the information that will be presented during the case

But  "Do we know the dog meant harm?" I'd not really relevant. I don't believe that we can ever truly know the intention of an animal in circumstances like these. Moreover, of we try to compare this incident to an assault by one human on another, the intent of the former is secondary to the that perceived by the latter.
		
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Fair comment but my comment that you have quoted was in response to someone who suggested the horse who was arguably dog proof felt threatened by this particular dog as a horse can tell the difference between a dog on the yard, and a dog that means it harm, or words to that effect. My reply was that we cannot know the dog meant harm from the simple fact that it ran under the horse's legs.
I wasn't suggesting the intentions of the dog are relevant exactly, only that we can not know the dogs intention from the fact that it ran under the horse, and therefore to assume the horse only reacted to this dog because it felt the dog meant it harm is pure speculation.


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## Fred66 (21 May 2022)

This article appears to give a more holistic view of the incident and is why the case may not be clear cut.
https://www.westerntelegraph.co.uk/news/20150969.horse-rider-injured-druidston-beach-sues-5-million/
Whilst the dog owner might be held liable (either wholly or partially) it throws some doubt on the actual cause. 

How close did the dog get, was it chasing, did the rider who was thrown halt his horse because he saw the dog approaching , was it the being stopped from following the other horses the reason it bucked (not unreasonable in trekking type horses that are used to being together).

Was the dog dangerously out of control? It is not classed as a dangerous breed so would not necessarily have to be under such close control as one that is. It hadn’t chased the horses on the first canter so it’s owner did not believe that it would chase them on the second time.

Very sad for the gentleman that had the accident but it certainly shows the value of having personal accident insurance.


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## ycbm (21 May 2022)

Fred66 said:



			Very sad for the gentleman that had the accident but it certainly shows the value of having personal accident insurance.
		
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I don't know anyone who can afford personal accident insurance which would make a meaningful,  life enhancing payout for loss of the use of your legs.  
.


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## Fred66 (21 May 2022)

ycbm said:



			I don't know anyone who can afford personal accident insurance which would make a meaningful,  life enhancing payout for loss of the use of your legs.
.
		
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There is no money that compensate for the emotional aspect, but for the additional costs incurred regarding alterations to your home, care staff, physio, loss of earnings etc then a value for this can be determined, presumably why he is suing for money.


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## criso (21 May 2022)

Fred66 said:



			This article appears to give a more holistic view of the incident and is why the case may not be clear cut.
https://www.westerntelegraph.co.uk/news/20150969.horse-rider-injured-druidston-beach-sues-5-million/
Whilst the dog owner might be held liable (either wholly or partially) it throws some doubt on the actual cause. 

How close did the dog get, was it chasing, did the rider who was thrown halt his horse because he saw the dog approaching , was it the being stopped from following the other horses the reason it bucked (not unreasonable in trekking type horses that are used to being together).

Was the dog dangerously out of control? It is not classed as a dangerous breed so would not necessarily have to be under such close control as one that is. It hadn’t chased the horses on the first canter so it’s owner did not believe that it would chase them on the second time.

Very sad for the gentleman that had the accident but it certainly shows the value of having personal accident insurance.
		
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That gives a bit more detail and clarifies  that all the horses stopped


He adds: "The accident occurred because the group of horses stopped, having cantered past Max, and because the claimant lost control of his horse and lost his seat upon the same."

It also says

Max was not disobedient or out of control."

Not sure that running after horses and ending up under their legs counts as under control unless that is what the owner intended.


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## honetpot (21 May 2022)

I think all they have to prove is, if the dog wasn't there was the incident likely to have happened and did the owner have control, they have to prove negligence, but they may not have enough money or insurance to pay the full amount of damages.
'Out of control

Your dog is considered dangerously out of control if it:
    injures someone
    makes someone worried that it might injure them
A court could also decide that your dog is dangerously out of control if either of the following apply:
    it attacks someone’s animal
    the owner of an animal thinks they could be injured if they tried to stop your dog attacking their animal'
https://www.gov.uk/control-dog-public

 I think suing the company who organised the ride, who should have about 10million in insurance is just a way of covering if they are awarded damages they should be able to pay, although the insurance company will try and push the liability on to the dog owner.


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## Fred66 (21 May 2022)

criso said:



			That gives a bit more detail and clarifies  that all the horses stopped


He adds: "The accident occurred because the group of horses stopped, having cantered past Max, and because the claimant lost control of his horse and lost his seat upon the same."

It also says

Max was not disobedient or out of control."

Not sure that running after horses and ending up under their legs counts as under control unless that is what the owner intended.
		
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It actually says that the horses had moved off to start their second canter but that his horse was stationery. The dog started to run towards them it doesn’t say from how far away and there is differing views on whether it barked.
I am not advocating for a dangerous dog just pointing out that this case is not clear cut.

Regarding the link to the govt website it says that your dog must not be out of control in your own home, which is semi laughable as puppies don’t pop out fully trained. Also regarding whether a dog is a danger would be what a reasonable person would think posed a risk, so a large Rottweiler running at you would be far more likely to give concern than a jack russell.


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## Pearlsasinger (21 May 2022)

scats said:



			Just a musing- if a dog slips it’s lead/pulls it’s owner over or gets away and causes an accident, could the owner still be responsible coz it was out of control in a public place?  Even if the dog got away, rather than being let off.
But if a rider falls off a horse and it bolts and causes an accident, provided they have insurance, I assume they are in no way responsible?
		
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Having insurance doesn't absolve you of responsibility, it just means any financial compensation is paid by the underwriters.


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## Amymay (21 May 2022)

The fact remains that the dog ran at the horse(s) and was not under control.


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## bonny (21 May 2022)

So much speculation on this thread! I hope some of you never find yourself on a jury.


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## criso (21 May 2022)

Fred66 said:



			It actually says that the horses had moved off to start their second canter but that his horse was stationery. The dog started to run towards them it doesn’t say from how far away and there is differing views on whether it barked.
I am not advocating for a dangerous dog just pointing out that this case is not clear cut.

 .
		
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It doesn't say that Bonfire was the only horse stationary, it's just saying that he wasn't moving when the dog ran up.

But they do elaborate further down.


He adds: "The accident occurred because the group of horses stopped, having cantered past Max, and because the claimant lost control of his horse and lost his seat upon the same."

That is a quote from the dog owner's solicitor.

In a sense he's right in that if they'd all carried on cantering, the dog may not have kept up and the accident may not have happened but I think most people would pull up in those circumstances as the safer thing to do in theory.


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## ester (21 May 2022)

It kind of highlights that hat cams (equivalent) would be useful on beaches etc as much as they are roads.


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## Fred66 (21 May 2022)

criso said:



			It doesn't say that Bonfire was the only horse stationary, it's just saying that he wasn't moving when the dog ran up.

But they do elaborate further down.


He adds: "The accident occurred because the group of horses stopped, having cantered past Max, and because the claimant lost control of his horse and lost his seat upon the same."

That is a quote from the dog owner's solicitor.

In a sense he's right in that if they'd all carried on cantering, the dog may not have kept up and the accident may not have happened but I think most people would pull up in those circumstances as the safer thing to do in theory.
		
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That could be taken as the others cantered on and stopped WHEN the claimant lost control, ie they only stopped when they realised there was a problem. There is no jury so this will be down to how the judge assesses the evidence and apportions responsibility. Not hearing all the evidence we don’t know we can only speculate on what is in the press, and what what might still to be presented


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## Fred66 (21 May 2022)

Amymay said:



			The fact remains that the dog ran at the horse(s) and was not under control.
		
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Or his owner seeing that they had started to canter and knowing that a 14yr old Westie had about as much chance of catching them as flying to the moon didn’t immediately recall him. It might not have occurred to him that one would stop, he may have recalled it as soon as he did. Obviously the gentleman who is injured is going to have a different version. Not all the evidence is in the press so I am not judging either way, I’ll wait until the verdict


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## criso (21 May 2022)

I wouldn't take it like that

 Saying the accident happened because the group stopped puts the group stopping before the incident and even tried to suggest their stopping caused it.

 Not that the accident happened and then the riders stopped.

However the judge will have the advantage on us in that they can ask for clarification.


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## SilverLinings (21 May 2022)

Fred66 said:



			Regarding the link to the govt website it says that your dog must not be out of control in your own home, which is semi laughable as puppies don’t pop out fully trained.
		
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I suspect that wording in the Act is in response to the number of children (and also adults) who have been killed or seriously injured by dogs in a domestic house. It means that the owner of the dog has to take responsibility to keep others in the home (or visiting) safe, and is possibly intended to deter people from keeping known dangerous dogs alive and as pets because they think it's ok as the dog never goes outside.


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## Fred66 (22 May 2022)

SilverLinings said:



			I suspect that wording in the Act is in response to the number of children (and also adults) who have been killed or seriously injured by dogs in a domestic house. It means that the owner of the dog has to take responsibility to keep others in the home (or visiting) safe, and is possibly intended to deter people from keeping known dangerous dogs alive and as pets because they think it's ok as the dog never goes outside.
		
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I’m sure the intent is to ensure just that but the wording is such that you should be in control of your dog at all times which is not practicable, and therefore not a particularly well written law. I’m in bed at the moment the dogs are all sleeping downstairs and I have absolutely no control over them so in theory I’m breaking the law.


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## Keith_Beef (22 May 2022)

Fred66 said:



			I’m sure the intent is to ensure just that but the wording is such that you should be in control of your dog at all times which is not practicable, and therefore not a particularly well written law. I’m in bed at the moment the dogs are all sleeping downstairs and I have absolutely no control over them so in theory I’m breaking the law.
		
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You might, technically, be breaking the law.

But if your dogs are not able to cause a nuisance to anybody else, then there really is no reason to take action against you.


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## ponynutz (22 May 2022)

Fred66 said:



			Or his owner seeing that they had started to canter and knowing that a 14yr old Westie had about as much chance of catching them as flying to the moon didn’t immediately recall him. It might not have occurred to him that one would stop, he may have recalled it as soon as he did. Obviously the gentleman who is injured is going to have a different version. Not all the evidence is in the press so I am not judging either way, I’ll wait until the verdict
		
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True. But seeing as it's been taken to court I doubt this will be a very strong argument. It still implies a certain degree of blame whether it was intentional or not.


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## Tiddlypom (22 May 2022)

The devil will be in the fine detail as heard in court this case, as in all court cases. This representation from the defence barrister is key, however.

_For Mr Thomas, barrister Andrew Arentsen said there was no reason why Max should have been on his lead, since Druidston beach is regularly used by dog walkers to exercise their pets freely._

_"It is precisely the type of location where dog owners can reasonably allow their dogs to run without restraint," he said._

So what is 'without restraint'? Off lead, for sure, as that is apparently permitted on that beach, but it should never mean 'not under control'.


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## lamlyn2012 (22 May 2022)

Tiddlypom said:



			The devil will be in the fine detail as heard in court this case, as in all court cases. This representation from the defence barrister is key, however.

_For Mr Thomas, barrister Andrew Arentsen said there was no reason why Max should have been on his lead, since Druidston beach is regularly used by dog walkers to exercise their pets freely._

_"It is precisely the type of location where dog owners can reasonably allow their dogs to run without restraint," he said._

But surely a dog should only be off lead if it safe to do that. Even if dogs are allowed off lead the owner needs to decide if it is safe to allow this.
Where there is a group of horses close by, given that the dog has previously shown an interest in the horses, in my opinion the dog owner should have taken steps to control his dog. 
There are many places dogs are allowed off lead but a responsible owner will restrain their dog when horses are in the vicinity. This owner clearly didn't. 
If this argument stands up I personally think it will set the wrong precedent. 
It's like saying if a road speed limit is set at 50mph it doesn't necessarily mean it's  safe to travel at 50. You have to make a judgement
		
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## Tiddlypom (22 May 2022)

lamlyn2012 said:



			But surely a dog should only be off lead if it safe to do that. Even if dogs are allowed off lead the owner needs to decide if it is safe to allow this.
Where there is a group of horses close by, given that the dog has previously shown an interest in the horses, in my opinion the dog owner should have taken steps to control his dog.
There are many places dogs are allowed off lead but a responsible owner will restrain their dog when horses are in the vicinity. This owner clearly didn't.
If this argument stands up I personally think it will set the wrong precedent.
It's like saying if a road speed limit is set at 50mph it doesn't necessarily mean it's safe to travel at 50. You have to make a judgement
		
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Oh yes, I fully agree.

But the defence is trying to use the fact that dogs are allowed off lead on that particular beach to weasel out of the owner's responsibility to still have control of and recall of his dog if necessary.


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## Amymay (22 May 2022)

Tiddlypom said:



			Oh yes, I fully agree.

But the defence is trying to use the fact that dogs are allowed off lead on that particular beach to weasel out of the owner's responsibility to still have control of and recall of his dog if necessary.
		
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Which of course is nonsense. Had it been a child, it would have been ‘it’s a fair cop, guv’.


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## fiwen30 (22 May 2022)

Interesting that the dog owner’s lawyer states that the dog was obedient, and would ‘return when called’. Surely that’s admitting that the owner allowed the dog to chase the group, if it would have returned to him if he’d called it?


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## GSD Woman (27 May 2022)

I've just started reading this thread but I have many questions. 

I agree with all of the others who are saying have a good recall and put the dog on lead when one sees horses, livestock and such.

Could the dog owner be sued and if he loses lose his personal property?  I know the rest of the world is less law suit happy than the USA, must be nice to have some common sense people and not just about dogs, but often a person's property, wages or bank accounts can be garnished if said person is uninsured. I think in some states home owners insurance would cover this, but I'm not sure.  Mine does if something happens on my property.


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## cauda equina (28 May 2022)

Tiddlypom said:



			The devil will be in the fine detail as heard in court this case, as in all court cases. This representation from the defence barrister is key, however.

_For Mr Thomas, barrister Andrew Arentsen said there was no reason why Max should have been on his lead, since Druidston beach is regularly used by dog walkers to exercise their pets freely._

_"It is precisely the type of location where dog owners can reasonably allow their dogs to run without restraint," he said._

So what is 'without restraint'? Off lead, for sure, as that is apparently permitted on that beach, but it should never mean 'not under control'.
		
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And what is 'reasonably'?
 One might suppose that implies that the dogs can run without restraint but not interfere with other users of the beach, which this dog seems to have done


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## GSD Woman (28 May 2022)

After finally reading all of this thread I've come to the conclusion that dog owners in the UK are as  bad/stupid as those in the USA.  My 2 have excellent recalls but if we get around people I put them on lead.  Rudy is pretty reliable and the one time I forgot the leads in the car I took of my belt and used it as a leash for Freddie. Unfortunately most people just don't get it.

I hope this poor man wins.


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## canteron (7 July 2022)

Does anyone know the outcome of this case?


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## Amymay (7 July 2022)

canteron said:



			Does anyone know the outcome of this case?
		
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I was thinking about this the other day.


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## DirectorFury (7 July 2022)

canteron said:



			Does anyone know the outcome of this case?
		
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I've just searched court records and can't find anything so don't think they've had a final hearing yet - the one reported was just an opening hearing and the full case was scheduled for a later date. There's currently a massive backlog in the courts which won't be helping. They also might have settled out of court.


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## marmalade76 (7 July 2022)

Alibear said:



			That said, this could lead to dogs only being able to run off lead in designated/paid dog parks or their gardens. Is that better welfare for the dogs?  Then you get to cats 

Click to expand...

Sounds like an excellent idea to me and with the number of dogs and the number of useless, irresponsible owners going up all the time, I wouldn't be surprised if something like this were to come into force in the future.

Off lead dogs may be allowed on this beach, but the law requires dogs to be "under control" at all times and if the dog was able to run under the horse, it was not under control. I will be interested to hear the outcome, I think it about time dog owners were given something to think about. I think it's a shame the injured rider is taking the stables to court, though.


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## MagicMelon (8 July 2022)

cauda equina said:



			And what is 'reasonably'?
One might suppose that implies that the dogs can run without restraint but not interfere with other users of the beach, which this dog seems to have done
		
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Also what would have happened if the dog had knocked over and injured a small child for example, that would be a case of an out of control dog. I cannot see how they think its acceptable to allow a dog to cause harm to others. Acceptable to be off lead sure, but ONLY if your dog has very good recall!!


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## Wishfilly (10 July 2022)

I think the wording implying the dog was under control when running after horses is not ideal, as it could be taken to imply that the owner did this on purpose (I'm sure they didn't). If you could call your dog away from cantering horses, why wouldn't you?

I'd imagine the case won't be heard for a while- it takes a long time for anything to get through the courts at the moment.


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## stormox (2 January 2023)

Does anyone know what the outcome of this case was?


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## Amymay (2 January 2023)

stormox said:



			Does anyone know what the outcome of this case was?
		
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Funnily enough I was talking to a rider about this today.  They thought that the rider had been unsuccessful in suing the stables so was going after the dog owner.

No idea if this is the case or not.


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## Sossigpoker (2 January 2023)

Amymay said:



			Funnily enough I was talking to a rider about this today.  They thought that the rider had been unsuccessful in suing the stables so was going after the dog owner.

No idea if this is the case or not.
		
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All I've found was that there was the pre-trial meeting around May last year snd that the trial would be "at a later date".
Nothing else is coming up so I assume the trial hasn't taken place yet.


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## DirectorFury (2 January 2023)

stormox said:



			Does anyone know what the outcome of this case was?
		
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Still nothing showing in the court listings - I search for it about once a month . Could be the Covid backlog, could be that they’ve settled out of court.


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## Annagain (5 January 2023)

Amymay said:



			Funnily enough I was talking to a rider about this today.  They thought that the rider had been unsuccessful in suing the stables so was going after the dog owner.

No idea if this is the case or not.
		
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I thought the stables settled out of court (they’ve now shut down, partly due to covid but there was a strong hint their overheads were just too high, I assume paying out a claim would push their insurance right up) but the rider was going after the dog owner as well.


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