# 2.5 acre 'Perfect Paddock' - Advice on purchase / livery price



## Marcomacellaio (20 July 2010)

Hello everyone )

I would be really grateful for some advice and opinion on the purchase price or livery cost for a 2.5 acre 'perfect paddock'.  

I am a university business management student and am writing an essay which shows the link between good equine facilities and countryside management / conservation. The 'perfect paddock' is a theoretical design which takes into account the needs of the horse, the owner and the environment. 

I will explain what the 'perfect paddock' is and would be extremely grateful for any feedback with regard to design, and most importantly, the expected cost to the owner, either as purchase price, or the expected rental value as a livery. 

The 'perfect paddock is 2.5 acres of good quality grazing land surrounded by responsibly sourced timber post and rail fencing (topped with electric tape to prevent chewing, leaning etc). The paddock is divided into 2 (1 acre each) by post and rail fencing incorporating a gate to help with grass management. The gate can obviously be left open to provide constant access to both paddocks if required. The paddocks both have self filling water troughs.

The facilities are all made from treated wood and include 2 stables, a tack room, a covered grooming area, a hay store, a toilet (plumbed into septic tank) and electricity supply provided by solar panels fitted to the roofs.  

There is also a 20m x 40m outdoor arena, surrounded by post and rail fencing. 


In my essay I am trying to create the 'perfect paddock' for both horse and owner (obviously within reason, ie no jacuzzi suggestions please!) so any suggestions on improving the design etc would be appreciated. 

I am also trying to show that these paddocks would be cost effective, but have no idea what the cost would be to the customer. It may well turn out that the 'perfect paddock' would be prohibitively expensive for most people. What would you expect to pay to purchase the 'perfect paddock' and also an idea on what the expected livery/rental cost would be appreciated. 

Thank you all so much for your time so far, I sincerely hope that you spend a little more time providing me with invaluable feedback. 

Mark Butcher


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## Bosworth (20 July 2010)

Cost wise to purchase it would be hugely expensive as 'pony paddock' size tend to cost in excess of £15k an acre round here- without facilities. With the facilities you are talking about i would expect it to have a purchase price of approx £50 - £75k (depending on area even more).

You would need to add in security - if it is not attached to a property they the security risks are far higher so gates, CCTV etc need to be added.

You also need to add in storage for mainetenance equipment, tractor, harrow, topper etc plus spare fencing to repair damage. also Hard standing for trailer /lorry. 

In an ideal world you would have an area of flat concrete to trot horses up for the vet. 

2.5 acres is probably not cost effective - not enough to produce hay and only really suitable for ponies - not horses as you would need a minimum of 2 animals, they would graze it to the ground very quickly through the summer and would then trash it in winter - requiring loads of maintenance , reseeding rest etc for the following year. So you would really need to create an all weather turnout paddock for winter to try and save your fields.


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## Marcomacellaio (20 July 2010)

Thankyou so much for the quick reply 'Bosworth'. 

I'm not so sure I'd be able to budget into my design the building of a tractor/equipment shed, however, if I left adequate room on the design, this is something the owner could add if they required. Some people may use a contractor for that type of thing so wouldn't require the storeage? 

Excellent suggestion about security, I can't believe I hadn't even thought about that, and the hard standing for trailer/lorry definately worth putting into my design. 

I am concerned about the amount of land the design should have. I chose 2 acres because I had been told a rule of thumb was 1 acre per horse. How many acres would you ideally need if you wanted to cut hay and also prevent the horses from destroying it?

Thanks again for your help, I look forward to hearing from you again )


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## Brandy (20 July 2010)

I would want two acres per horse at least. I currently have one per horse, and they are stabled at night all year round, it it is enough if I fertilize. It wouldn;t manage 24 hour turnout, and in fact the grass does disappear in the winter. I have to feed hay. There is no scope for cutting hay and wouldn;t be even on 2 acres per horse I dont; think. For me, to be really perfect, I would like a nice natural hedge around at least two sides and maybe a couple fo trees.


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## Marcomacellaio (20 July 2010)

Thanks for your reply Brandy,

If I increase the design to be 2 acres per horse, and keep in all original fencing (unfortunately, not every paddock might have lovely hedgerow) do you think the 4 acres would have to be individually fenced, post and rail in 1 or 2 acre paddocks so you can rotate the horses throughout the year?

Also, what sort of price do you think customers would be expected to pay for purchase or as a rental/livery? Do you agree with 'bosworth' on around £75000 dependent on area (actually that figure was based on 2acres)

thanks for your help )


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## Gluttonforpunishment (20 July 2010)

I would agree that 2 horses would ideally want 4 acres - each fenced into 1 acre paddocks - to allow rotational grazing and not stress the grass.

With regard to cost I would suggest you email a couple of rural chartered surveyors in different areas of the country and ask them what they would price it at.  They will be able to give you the price per acre and the add for facilities.  

The menage would need to have flood lights to allow optimum usage in winter, also, it would benefit from being built with a Dutch Barn type roof to offer protection from both rain & sun whilst schooling.

The only other thing to note is that there should in a perfect world be some shelter in each of the paddocks so the horses can get out of the sun / wind / rain during the day if necessary.

hope that is of some help


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## Booboos (20 July 2010)

I would agree with the others regarding the size, 4 acres is much more reasonable for 2 horses.

The cost of land varies depending on where you are in the country, e.g. Oxfordshire is going to be massively more expensive than Lancashire for example. It also varies depending on how many acres you need, the first couple of acres are disproportionately expensive because this is what everyone needs, 10 acres is very valuable, then the price per acre starts dropping as most people do not need as much as 30-40 acres (unless they want to farm in which case they need substantially more and expect to pay a lot less per acre than smallholders or horse owners).

Costs:
- arena: depends on surface but could be anything between 10,000 and 55,000
- stables: you need a concrete base and then the stables, approximately 10,000 but again it will depend on the materials, I have no idea what the cost of the wood you have in mind would be
- electricity and water: how far away are the mains? It can cost insane amounts to bring mains electricity and water to isolated areas. Are you sure solar panels will fulfill the electricity needs? E.g. the farrier will need electricity, it's not just low level lighting.
- septic tank: tough to get PP for this one, best to try to connect to mains.

Are you addressing the PP issue at all or do you assume PP is available? It would be interesting to see if there are any design considerations that might make PP more likely.


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## Hippona (20 July 2010)

I have 2.5 acres, divided up with electric fencing into smaller paddocks. The outer perimeter is post/rail fencing with some hedging and a couple of trees in one paddock. I have 3 stables on hard standing, a hay and straw 'lean-to' and space for the trailer. I also have one of those locked security containers as a feed room.

I have no water supply- so all buildings have sloped roofs with gutters into water containers.

I rotate my grazing and the horses are in at night- in winter I rest the main field and keep the horses in  smaller turn-out area which has grass in it, but I need to put hay out also. I do not grow enough grass to make hay. 

I have no arena- but one of the paddocks is pretty flat so I use than if I need to.

I rent this for £40 pw...no idea what it would cost to buy....cos my landlady won't sell...grrr


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## SpottedCat (20 July 2010)

There are design considerations which make PP more likely - for example some areas of the country it is easier to get PP if your arena is not fenced (and lets face it, you can plant a hedge  ).

In terms of PP issues (if they are being addressed) you must show biodiversity gain on all developments these days, plus a lot of rural planning authorities have 'horsification' policies in their local plans/local development frameworks - it would be worth going through several of these for different areas of the country and pulling out their policies to see a) how they differ and b) what restrictions you would come up against.

Personally, I would rather have big hedges (so some shelter) round the edge of the field, then divide in 2 with post and rail and do the rest with electric tape so I could change the configuration. I would also like the stables to open onto a 'pen' area which could be used in foul weather so the horses could stretch their legs if the land was (for example) flooded. I would like this pen to then open directly into the fields so the horses could have the choice of in or out. Hot and cold running water is a must for me.


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## Tinseltoes (20 July 2010)

poppymoo said:



			I have 2.5 acres, divided up with electric fencing into smaller paddocks. The outer perimeter is post/rail fencing with some hedging and a couple of trees in one paddock. I have 3 stables on hard standing, a hay and straw 'lean-to' and space for the trailer. I also have one of those locked security containers as a feed room.

I have no water supply- so all buildings have sloped roofs with gutters into water containers.

I rotate my grazing and the horses are in at night- in winter I rest the main field and keep the horses in  smaller turn-out area which has grass in it, but I need to put hay out also. I do not grow enough grass to make hay. 

I have no arena- but one of the paddocks is pretty flat so I use than if I need to.

I rent this for £40 pw...no idea what it would cost to buy....cos my landlady won't sell...grrr

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Wow thats a lot per week.I am so lucky,I rent a field,its almost 4 acres, water all year round and use of the cowshed,can do as I please,owner leaves me too it and he feeds my 2 on the holidays ie xmas (have field to myself) and I pay £20.00 PER MONTH for both. (friend of the family owns the field). I eventually would like to buy the field. (if he'll sell that is).


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## spookypony (20 July 2010)

Since this is a theoretical exercise, it might be interesting for you take a look at Jaime Jackson's _Paddock Paradise_. In essence, he proposes an alternative paddock design based on his observations of wild horse behaviour in the western USA. 

The basic principle is a fenced-off track around the outside of a field. This track is kept mostly bare of grass, but studded with points of interest, such as watering/bathing opportunities, deposits of hay, resting places...The idea is to encourage the horses to keep moving more as they would in a natural environment, rather than standing around and getting fat (and possibly laminitic) in a lush field. The open space in the centre of the track can be used for growing hay, could contain an arena, or be used for short-term turn-out. The overall space needed is not very much.

This model appears logically sound, and I have seen one implementation of it in the UK, which seems to be working very well. However, given the usual layout of livery yards and the wet, lush climate, there are some barriers to setting it up. For one thing, you either need a number of other liveries on-side, who are willing to give it a go, or you need your own land. Secondly, since the land is so wet here, it wouldn't be sufficient in most areas to clear the track of grass; you'd have to put down some surface (such as pea-gravel) to keep it from turning into a mud bath. That would be a large initial expense (though the rest of it isn't expensive, I think). 

It might be very interesting to horse owners if you were to investigate this model along with your more traditional model, as a sort of feasibility study. 

As the owner of a native pony cross that is difficult to manage on the far-too-good grazing we have here, I've been looking into this as a possibility for preventing obesity and laminitis. There's hardly a horse on our yard that's not too fat at the moment, and I think we've come to the point where there is a big enough interest group on our yard to seriously think about trying to run one of the fields in this way.


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## flowerlady (20 July 2010)

Well we turned down a lovely 4 acre +3/4 acre extra place with 4 stables (brick built, large garage/store also brick built) generator water supply haystore/tack room.  Surrounded by treated wooden fencing.  Main road access.  The price was £75,000 this was in North Devon we felt because no planning permission would be given to build a house that it was too much for just land and stables.


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## ihatework (20 July 2010)

flowerlady said:



			Well we turned down a lovely 4 acre +3/4 acre extra place with 4 stables (brick built, large garage/store also brick built) generator water supply haystore/tack room.  Surrounded by treated wooden fencing.  Main road access.  The price was £75,000 this was in North Devon we felt because no planning permission would be given to build a house that it was too much for just land and stables.
		
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Jeez! If I could find 4 acres and 4 stables for 75K where I am (S. Oxon) I would be running down to the bank today!!!


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## flowerlady (20 July 2010)

ihatework said:



			Jeez! If I could find 4 acres and 4 stables for 75K where I am (S. Oxon) I would be running down to the bank today!!!
		
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They have recently sold it but I don't think they got the asking price as we veiwed it 18 months ago and it has only sold over the last 3 months.  You see to me if I can't build a house on it it's only grazing land so only worth about £5K - £10K per acre?


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## Marcomacellaio (20 July 2010)

Thanks for all of the wonderful suggestions so far.

I am intrigued by the 'Paddock Paradise' suggestion, I have just found a copy of the book in the library, so have had it reserved and will pick it up later.

Does anybody else have experience of the pros and cons of 'Paddock Paradise'?

Also, I had not thought about integrating planning considerations into my design, but actually, upon relfection this is an area that may be important to the overall essay, especially with regard to environmental matters / legislation.

Does anybody have any experience of the planning constraints involved with developing land for equestrian use? Is it dificult to get permissions, or is it relatively straight forward?

Any information with regard to paddock paradise or planning considerations would be greatly appreciated,

Mark

ps, this forum beats Horse & Rider hands down! only one person replied on there! hehe


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## Booboos (20 July 2010)

From personal experience, it can be quite tough to get planning permission but it depends on the local council. Things that might help or hinder:
- if you have existing agricultural buildings it's usually straight forward to convert them and you may not even need PP
- if you want to put up new buildings, you have a much better chance if you do so within the curtillage of the house. In fact a small building within the curtillage (30 square metres I think) does not need PP at all. 
- Building outside the curtillage of the house is much more challenging unless you can combine with main agricultural use.
- the size of the building, especially the height are considerations. The smaller the better. The amount of land may be relevant too, i.e. if you have 2 acres the council may object to 6 stables, as the land is not sufficient for supporting 6 horses.
- the positioning of the building can be crucial, e.g. whether it can be seen from the surrounding country-side or not
- the council may require approval of the materials used to build, e.g. they may impose brick in the brick area, or object to black rubber on an arena, or expect a green coloured roof. I would imagine that some councils may be keen on environmentally friendly buildings so anything in that direction could be a bonus.
- design and aesthetic issues may be of more importance in some areas than others, e.g. it may be impossible to get PP for wooden stables in areas of outstanding natural beauty and the council may even object to husbandry practices that ruin the look of grass paddocks.


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## DuckToller (20 July 2010)

I think there would be a market for the 2.5 perfect paddock idea.  Not everyone wants a large area of land, and although the idea of growing  your own hay is great, most people wouldn't want the hassle, so for the two-horse family, it would be easier to buy it in than try to persuade the local farmer to come and cut your measly couple of acres!

Years ago I kept my pony at a farm near Epping Forest.  The farmer had subdivided a large area into small paddocks, and each had a block of 2 stables on it, facing another block of 2.  So each DIY livery shared a paddock, two horses to each paddock, and it was up to you if you wanted to leave out all year or save the grazing.  The manage was shared and they also had a few large fields that went with the rest of the stables - I eventually moved from the paddock to the large field as the other horse in the little paddock bullied mine but if I had had two horses that got on well, it wouldn't have been such a problem.

The paddocks were tiny though, nowhere near an acre each, so it didn't work for me and I moved, but it was popular with people who didn't like sharing a large field or those with laminitics/elderly ponies or competition horses that they didn't want kicked.  

Two acres for two horses is just about manageable if the land is reasonable and you are not expecting them to live out, working on the basis that the other half acre is now covered with manage and an area of hard-standing for the trailer/muck heap etc.  The only drawback is if you keep two horses together, they tend to pair bond.  So you end up with one screaming its head off if the other one goes out.  So now we need to factor in a little field shelter for a mini shetland to be a companion pony!

Is the perfect paddock an isolated paddock, or part of a large area divided up into blocks as the farm above?


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## Hippona (20 July 2010)

sharon1959 said:



			Wow thats a lot per week.I am so lucky,I rent a field,its almost 4 acres, water all year round and use of the cowshed,can do as I please,owner leaves me too it and he feeds my 2 on the holidays ie xmas (have field to myself) and I pay £20.00 PER MONTH for both. (friend of the family owns the field). I eventually would like to buy the field. (if he'll sell that is).
		
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Its right next to my house.....so its worth it to me. And I see you get 'mates rates' Plus its a bit more than a field on its own...its a small but perfectly formed yard lol


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## Faro (20 July 2010)

Just as an indication of costs.  There is 3.5 acres of really scrubby grazing land just come up for sale near me in South Bucks.  As far as I know there are no facilities whatsoever.  (I'm uncertain if there is a water supply or not - but if there is, that's the most that's on offer).  As far as I know, the fencing is simply wire.  There is no direct access to hacking.  This has come on to the market for £80 - 85,000.


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## Cedars (20 July 2010)

Havent read all replies, but here are a few of my opinions!

You'd need shelter - at the very least trees, at best a shelter. 

You'd need somewhere to put the muck heap, I hear that technically its very specific about not being above water courses etc....

I'd also want grass rotation, it'd be unlikely in the winter that if we have snow etc the paddock won't get trashed - look at the photos from last winter on here!! (Search for what do your fields look like or similar). 

Security, ideally from someone living on site or at least attached to a house in some way. Would also want hedges round the fields to stop people just pulling the post and rails out the walls.

But basically, there isn't really any "perfect". I.e. our mare who had ks surgery in October would have really struggled in her recovery had she been on totally flat ground as she wouldnt have built up much muscle - living on the side of a hill has helped her massively - but when its snowing we hate that bloody hill!!!


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## Tinypony (20 July 2010)

It's a bit how long is a piece of string isn't it?  2 acres for two horses is fine if the land is right, but a nightmare if it isn't, for example if it's low-lying clay soil.  Then, price depends on the area.  Where I am (Kent) you'd pay easily £25 p wk per horse, so £50 per week.  Maybe more if it was right on good hacking.  For me, it's a bit tight on land however good the ground is, with well drained grazing, for two horses I'd be looking for 3 acres minimum.  But I'm sure it would rent or sell round my way (if you could find any land to set it up on!) because little yards are like hen's teeth, and many people are happy to restrict turnout in the winter.


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## flowerlady (20 July 2010)

Forgot till Flamehead mentioned it OH says you'd need a field shelter as you don't seem to have any natural shelter ie hedges and trees.

PMSL laughing at the Water hole/ bathing?????? area will they have to wear bathers


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## Pearlsasinger (20 July 2010)

Traditionally, the amount of land to keep horses is said to be 2 acres for the 1st horse and then 1 acre for each extra horse.  Of course practically, it depends very much on the land and its situation.


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## Marcomacellaio (20 July 2010)

Llewelyn - The original idea was that they would be isolated, but after all of the helpful advice here I am wondering if a better model would be to suggest buying a larger parcel of land to keep costs lower and then divide the area into a little 'perfect paddock' village! Possibly would help with security as there would be more horse people active in the area.

Faro - Oh my god, £80,000 for 3.5 acre. That would make the design for 'Perfect paddock' come in at around £130,000 approx with the rough estimates I have done so far to buy the land and add facilities! Are there actually people who would pay that?! My wife would divorce me if I spent that on a horse instead fo the kids! hehe

Thanks again for all of the replies, my plan is changing by the minute, perhaps I should hold off writing any more of this essay until all of the replies have come in!


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## Honey08 (20 July 2010)

I think Poppymoo's £40pw for 3 stables, storage and grazing is good.  You'd usually pay 15-20pw for stabling and grazing per stable...  £20 for one cowshed and grazing is about right, but not cheaper really..

I'd want much more land - it so depends on the type of land - we have clay, that churns and gets very wet- two acres wouldn't last two minutes in winter..

the menage would add a lot to the price too.  Keep looking at H&H, there are often yards for rent/ sale...


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## Booboos (20 July 2010)

Financially it may work better as a farm diversification scheme. So, for example, a farmer who is looking to come out of dairy farming has the land already so that part of the expenditure is not required. He could put up the stabling (DIY bricks/breeze blocks should be cheaper than wood), then do an arena for a number of tenants to share. Then people pay for renting their own stables/paddock with access to arena. 

You'd need to look at the finances to see if that would work out though in terms of generating a decent enough income for the land owner.


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## Hippona (20 July 2010)

In an ideal world I'd like more land....I keep eyeing up the farmers crop field next to me.....but mine is well drained and the grass is good......can't have it all I spose.


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## Marcomacellaio (20 July 2010)

Since the purpose of writing this essay was to focus on the 'business' aspect of developing this paddock design I am starting to feel that there are two different markets which 'perfect paddock' would appeal to.

To sum up 'perfect paddock' (for 2); 3-4 acres with field shelters, post and rail fencing (topped with electric), self filling water troughs, 2 stables, tack room, covered grooming area, electricity supply (potentially solar), security incl. CCTV, hard standing for trailer/lorry. 

A. potential buyers with the funds to be able to pay a premium price of over £100k

B. potential renters, willing to pay approx. £40 per week. 

Based on those figures I'm starting to think the 'perfect paddock' is not a financially viable proposal because I think Market (A) would be a limited market and Market (B) would not generate sufficient weekly income to cover the development costs. 

Any thoughts on instead trying to target a different Market with environmentaly friendly developments which may please the planners and attract business grants to keep down costs? I would imagine horse keeping would be fairly Eco friendly already, isn't it? Any Eco suggestions?

Mark


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## rhino (20 July 2010)

Not sure on the eco idea sorry, the only suggestion I would have for your first post would be only to have post and rail as a ring fence and then use electric fence internally, that way the owners can move the fence daily if required and balance the area available with the horses needs.


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## Marcomacellaio (20 July 2010)

Thank you Roo, 

I suppose you're right, people would probably prefer the flexibility. As a non horsey person I was just thinking that from an aesthetic point of view, nice post and rail fencing would fit in more with peoples dreams of the perfect paddock. I went all black beauty!

A post and rail ring fence with internal electric fencing would help keep development costs down too, perhaps making it a bit more affordable / realistic for more people. 

Thanks for your help, 

Mark


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## Tinypony (20 July 2010)

Well, do you want to know what my dream setup is?  I would like a good size barn in the middle of my patch of land.  The patch of land would probably be about 5 or 6 acres for my 3.  The place would be fenced externally, but within that perimiter fence I would be able to do what I liked, with wooden stake-type posts and electric fencing. (Paddock Paradise or whatever).  I'd need mains electricity for the fencing by the way...  All around the barn there would be a nice hardstanding surface, going at least 12ft out on all sides.  Hopefully the barn would have more than one doorway, nice and wide.  And be divided inside so I could use part of it for storage and essentials like tea making, and the other would be open to allow my neds to come and go for shelter and shade.  Doors on all sides would be perfect in fact.  I'd set up my fencing so that I could open different sections of the grazing when needed, but all would have a gateway on to the hard standing area around the barn, so that the horses could always access the barn.  Running water of course...  And a nice track leading up to my barn, with room for parking and turning when my hay's delivered.
Oh, a sandschool of some description would be lovely, although expensive to install.
You see, I don't want stables at all.  I want a barn that they can have free access to, and that I could use for box resting if I had to.  I want to be flexible rather than cosmetically pleasing in how I use my grazing, so that I can keep my horses moving around for the benefit of their health.  I don't want the conventional pretty stable yard, I want a setup that works in the best way for me and my horses all year round.
In fact, I think there would be quite a market for that sort of setup, I have friends who, like me, yearn for it to be honest.


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## Hippona (20 July 2010)

Marcomacellaio said:



			I suppose you're right, people would probably prefer the flexibility. As a non horsey person I was just thinking that from an aesthetic point of view, nice post and rail fencing would fit in more with peoples dreams of the perfect paddock. I went all black beauty!
		
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Nice white leccy fencing  with white poles...all stretched taut and maintained looks nice too......well mine does

Or you could go pink

You know.....unless you've already got the land ( ie farmer or lucky git) then theres not a great deal of money in renting out yards/grazing. Thats why most yards do part/full livery to make the money from providing services. 
Its actually much cheaper for me to keep my horses on rented land than to be on livery or try to buy the land.


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## Booboos (20 July 2010)

Financially, I think it would be very difficult to make this work given the set up costs. Livery yards and horsey facilities tend to fall under three categories:

- people who keep horses at home. They are insane about their animals and accept the cost of keeping them as part and parcel of the whole thing. Adding equestrian facilities can increase the value of a property but probably not enough to make it a viable business model. Most people do it for their own horses and accept the increased re-sale value as a small fringe benefit.

- people who adore horses and want to make a living out of them. They generally struggle to make serious money, but livery yards especially in converted existing buildings are a way of keeping things ticking over - they are not going to make anyone rich though!

- people who couldn't care less about horses, but happen to have the facilities, e.g. farms, and like the small extra income. Again the money generating opportunities are limited.

As far as I can tell the opportunities for making serious money from horses are few and far between. The people who have the best chance are serious professionals with a great reputation in their field who can buy a lot of youngsters and sell them on well trained as good competition prospects.


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## Marcomacellaio (20 July 2010)

I really like the sound of the 'natural' setup, involving the barn with open access to the horses. I'm going to do a lot more research into that now, just sat down with a copy of paddock paradise which I picked up from the library this afternoon. 

Guess I'm going to end up designing and writing about something completely different than what I set out to do! Isn't that just the way of it! Thought I was almost finished, now back to the drawing board. 

Does anyone else have any opinions, experiences to do with that type of setup? Is there a tangible benefit to the horses, or do some of you think this is just another fad which will be here today gone tomorrow? 

Again...... Any opinions would be greatly appreciated 

Thanks

Mark


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## Achinghips (20 July 2010)

Marcomacellaio said:



			Thanks for all of the wonderful suggestions so far.

I am intrigued by the 'Paddock Paradise' suggestion, I have just found a copy of the book in the library, so have had it reserved and will pick it up later.

Does anybody else have experience of the pros and cons of 'Paddock Paradise'?

Also, I had not thought about integrating planning considerations into my design, but actually, upon relfection this is an area that may be important to the overall essay, especially with regard to environmental matters / legislation.

Does anybody have any experience of the planning constraints involved with developing land for equestrian use? Is it dificult to get permissions, or is it relatively straight forward?

Any information with regard to paddock paradise or planning considerations would be greatly appreciated,

Mark

ps, this forum beats Horse & Rider hands down! only one person replied on there! hehe
		
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Take a read of "Animals in Translation" by Temple Granden. She is an Autistic Professor of animal behaviour and a designer of animal habitats/slaughterhouses/zoos.  She also advocates the round track system and now most slaughterhouses in the USA are built on her designs. Her work is mainly with cows, but the principles of the track circuits remain the same.


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## Tinypony (20 July 2010)

Mark, if you set that up at a reasonable rent pm me - I'll probably move to where ever in the country you are!!
Paddock Paradise exercises the horses while they are wandering around the field, so it helps to keep weight down, keep them fitter, it benefits their (possibly barefoot) hooves.  In this country people sometimes have to abandon it in winter because unless they put some surfaces on the tracks, it can get in too much of a mess.  But that's fine, because it really comes into it's own in the summer.  
Open access to the barn, I think, benefits horse and person.  The horses get some choice about when they come in and go out.  2 doors are particularly good, because it's easy for one to leave rather than get cornered.  Although when I've tried similar setups the horses were so relaxed it wasn't an issue.  The barn does have to be large enough for the group to be able to stand in together amiably.  Also, having them walk over a hard surface like concrete to get there is good if they are barefoot.  And, in the winter when it's horrible and wet, you can do all your hay feeding on the area around the barn and inside, thus making sure they get out of the mud and wet for a good period of time.
Say a horse is poorly.  You can rig up an enclosure for them in the barn, possibly also put a gate across a doorway so they can see out and see their friends.  Got to help with box rest hasn't it?  
From the owner's point of view, take someone like me who pretty much does everything to care for their horses.  If it snowed and I couldn't get to the yard until late in the day, I'd know they had shelter, water and plenty of hay, so it wouldn't be the same worry as if they were waiting in stables.  Also, if I could only visit once a day, I'd know that they could get themselves out of weather or sun if they needed.  It would be great.
Seriously, I've dreamed about this setup for years, and it's an "if only" for me.  If I had an arena to play in, well, how good would that be?  Brilliant.


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## Spottyappy (20 July 2010)

I own 3  acres in the home counties. Purchased as a horse paddock over 20 years ago.I paid £12,500!That seemed quite alot back then. All it had was barb wire perimetre fence and a water trough. 
It is now divided into 3 paddock, has 4 stables, tack room, barn, 2 shelters and 2 water troughs.Oh, and a tap!
We have solar electric, but it is USELESS! It is great in summer- when you don't really need it, but barely lasts in winter, inspite of it being a professional product. Car batteries work far better if you don;t have mains electric. Obviously not as ethical though!
I have horse netting for my fences as I beleive it is safer than any other type.There is also a good thick hedge on one and half sides I do, however, strip graze with electric tape. I have far too much grass in summer, but never enough in winter, as we're on clay and it gets very very poached.
Planning was a nightmare, and I believe it has got much worse. We had to screen the stables from the road, and are also not allowed to burn anything-which was a stipulation fo the planning consent- which now means I have to pay £200 a year to have some but not all of it cleared away.It would cost 3 times that if I were to clear it all away! 
I have not had it valued recently, but I believe it would be worth in excess of £100, 000. Land is a very short commodity in the Uk,as we are an island with an ever increasing population, and as a result,along with strict planning regulations on many councils for horse related activities, it can only increase in value, which makes owning land out of reach for many many people.


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## Paint it Lucky (20 July 2010)

I must say that Tinypony's idea does sound lovely!  I have two horses and my ideal yard/setup for them would be around 3 acres of grazing, fenced with post and rail round the edge and also trees/hedges outside for shelter.  Then I could divide up the internal grazing as needs be using electric fencing.  It would be nice to have a tree or two in the field for the horses to shelter under, scratch on, have as a feature etc!  I would have automatic water troughs ideally or if not a tap, the guttering system for water is a god idea but doesn't work so well in summer when there's been no rain for weeks so definately would need a water supply of some sort, (probably not a pond/stream as I would worry a horse would get stuck in it!)  

For my main shelter I would also like a barn type building that opened on more than one side to allow the horses to come in and out as they pleased.  Inside it would have two large pens so that horses could be seperated if nessecary, I would probably stable them there overnight in winter but in summer they could come and go as they pleased.  The other main need would be a store of some kind, either as a seperate building or one attached to this one in which to keep hay/bedding/tools etc.  Solar lighting would be good, though it would no doubt need an electric back up for winter, couldn't manage with no electric in winter as I like to be able to see my horses (was at one yard where there was no electric and had to go round with a headtorch which wasn't ideal).  Security wise it would be in a nice safe area, fairly isolated, I like to be able to do my own thing so wouldn't want many other people around!  Obviously the absolute ideal would be that my house would be next door but this would put it well beyond my current budget!

An arena of my own would be a real bonus but also expensive so (unless I was feeling very rich), I would probably make do with schooling in the field in summer/dryer months and then using lots of hacking for my other fitness work (see below!)  Hopefully I would have my own horsebox which could prehaps live in the haybarn out of sight which I could use to hire out local arenas if needs be for more schooling.  

All the above would then be situated on a quiet lane within easy access of excellent off road hacking, either in a national park/forest or just somewhere with lots of bridleways!  To make it really ideal it would also be close to a local show centre so I could hack there for competitions/lessons/to hire their arena (in which case I wouldn't need my own so much so could buy a slightly cheaper field).

Hope this helps, I think I have covered everything I would want/need.


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## Marcomacellaio (21 July 2010)

Thank you 'Rot' for the book suggestion, I will definately look into that. I actually visited the slaughterhouse (part of farm visit for course) at Laverstoke Park Farm. Classical music playing, small numbers of animals going through at once. Was actually really interesting and very calm, which was surprising. They slaughter their own animals on site so no transportation. They even have big massaging rotating brushes in the barns for the buffalo!

'tiny', 'spotty' and 'ally'; thank you so much for you detailed responses, is actually fascinating to share in someone dream scenario. I hope many more people are willing to take the time to share that much! However, there is one important consideration, and that is cost. 

Would I be right in assuming that you all would rather be renters rather than owners? If so, what would you class as 'reasonable' rent for any of the dream setups that you just described?

Ps. None of the ideal scenarios should include a house, the model I'm designing reflects land useage. So if living there too is 'perfect' then try to imagine what would be your dream just below perfect. 

Thanks again everyone, I look forward to another day of excellent responses


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## Tinypony (21 July 2010)

Well, my biggest dream of all is to buy my own place and do that with it.  However, pigs... fly... etc.  So renting seems to be my only option.  Again, speaking for Kent, where I am, this would rent probably for about £50 per week I should think.  Strange as it seems to me, a lot of people would not want this, because they want a nice neat set of stables.  I have something close-ish.  I have 6 acres, and a barn, but not the hardstanding, arena, and the barn isn't in the middle of the fields.  It isn't big enough for storage and shelter, so I've had to opt for using it for hay.  I pay £150 pcm for that and have 3 horses.  For something more like the dream setup I'd go to about £200 pcm, but above that I'd struggle, even for a dream, budget is a consideration as well!


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## Marcomacellaio (21 July 2010)

Thanks for that, I'm gonna write a generic email questioning planning criteria and send it to all local authorities and see if I can come up with some sort of general rule of thumb for the purposes of my essay. 
Thanks for the info regarding solar, I'm going to re-look at that. Maybe also have wind power over winter, would be very effective where I used to live in scotland!


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## Marcomacellaio (21 July 2010)

Tiny - £200 sounds reasonable to me. Just wondering though, would the income generated be £200 per month or would you be able to rent to more than one owner who pays £200pm. Perhaps that would ruin the dream, sharing with someone else?


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## Booboos (21 July 2010)

Just another thought, local authorities are now very concerned with muck heap disposal and regulations are getting tighter all the time.

We looked into wind turbines for the house and found that the really small ones you can just put up produce almost nothing (but that may be enough for this situation?) and the other option were the massive ones that need PP, are very expensive and may have all your neighbours up in arms! There didn't seem to be an in-between option.


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## Tinypony (21 July 2010)

Depends...  ideally I prefer to rent the lot, and if there's enough room and land I'd get someone in to share.  Then I can chuck them out if they turn out to be a pain in the wotsit.  Small yards tend to be worked out on a per horse basis round my way, with stable maybe £25 per horse per week, grass livery £15 upwards.
My YO rents his small 4 stable yard out by the stable to various people.  It doesn't promote harmony, put it that way!  He just throws them in there and leaves them to it.  They are supposed to decide on things like grazing rotation democratically... LOL!  That's why I'm pleased that I rent my own little patch away from the Corrie-like atmosphere.


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## Marcomacellaio (21 July 2010)

Thanks Boo - I had actually forgotten to consider a muck heap area when I started this topic, now realised I need to consider a way to get rid of it, I thought spread it on fields, but just found that that can be a worm problem. Plus, the ideas gross! I wouldn't want pooh spread all over my dinner!


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## Tinypony (21 July 2010)

It's OK if the muck heap is well-rotted, but you need to rest the land, so that means... more acres..  Muck disposal is pretty expensive, but you'd set the yard up with the facility and leave it to the DIY liveries to arrange and pay for it.


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## Marcomacellaio (21 July 2010)

Tiny - ah ok, so of it's their responsibility, the plan just has to show an area that is safe to store it and the liveries would dispose of it. 
An ex girlfriend of mine had a horse, she used to complain all the time about the 'yard politics' at play. She made horsey people sound like bit#?!s and nutters! Mind you, she wasn't much better! Hehe anyway, swiftly moving on..... Do you think there would be a Market for people who are fed up with yards but need the services such as full livery? Could you provide a rented field with stables and arena etc etc buy have mobile stable staff who could perform full livery in privately rented stables?


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## Dubsie (21 July 2010)

As you're looking at the eco theme...

Our (oil, we're out in the sticks) boiler blew up in March, and we've been umming and ahing since about what to replace it with. We have investigated solar energy - we've a long 1970s bungalow facing the sun = ideal for collecting.

According to the guys who came to quote, if we spent £22K on the most industrial heavy duty solar panels , and got them installed this year, we could generate enough electricity to gain an income of at least 1.5K a year (on this year's input tarrif. (Problem is we've not got £22K!).  You might want to factor this in?
Also look at the costs for sinking a bore hole, and investing in an automatic watering system for your paddocks (pump powered by above solar system = no running costs just wear and tear) - this would enable perfect growth across your paddocks (not this dried up brown stuff we have) .  Would cost a fortune to install but would mean your grazing on 2.5 acres would be sufficient, and you should be able to cut enough hay to survive the winter. 

FWIW we're on the edge of Reading, I've seen under an acre (next to us) with an ex electricity sub station sell for £80K 3 years ago, 3 acres of ragwort, poorly maintained hedges, no facilities right by motorway but next to housing advertised for £75K and is under offer.  Anything with a remote possibility of being built on in next 40 years seems to be sold for £25K/acre+ and has an uplift clause to cover the increased value should you ever get PP for a house!  We keep looking at bits of land (we'd like 3 acres more, for hay), but by the time you factor in the £££cost we think we'd like to move to a cheaper area and have all our land together on a small farm, but then we look at all the things we need to do (like replace boiler) and think we'd never get them done....


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## Marcomacellaio (21 July 2010)

Dubsie- I'm really sorry to hear about your boiler, I know how that feels. I used to live in a country cottage in Scotland and our oil boiler packed in. Our landlord fixed it but it was costing an absolute fortune to run, cottage had no insulation, double glazing etc. We had no choice but to try and survive a winter with no heating, using only coal fire in living room. I've never been so cold! Bedtime wearing gloves and a wooly hat! Amazingly we got used to it eventually and didn't feel it so cold. Our visitors didn't! Parties in our living room looked like they were being held outdoors because nobody would take off gloves and jackets! Hehe. Now we live in Bournemouth, in a town with gas central heating etc, and we've never been so I'll! Hehe non stop colds and snivels. Were evolving into soft townies!

Thanks for all of the information you provided. I really fancy the idea of the yard design being self sufficient for energy but from some of the feedback on here it would seem that that may just be unrealistic. I am going to contact planners as I would be interested to know whether features like that would make planning more or less likely, or whether it would make no difference. 

Mark


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