# Cesar Milan



## lula (25 September 2011)

Am curious to know what other forum members think of Cesar Milan and his 'Dog Whisperer' training methods.

personally i am a bit shallow and think he's pretty dishy  so i may be a bit biased in my opinion 
 ..but seriously, apart from having the whitest teeth ive ever seen (bar katie price!) Ive watched a lot of his tv programmes while trying to deal with my own dog's issues and he does seem to make a lot of sense and his methods seem to be very effective in dealing with various canine problems. At least as far as his programmes reflect....


anyone have any views on him one way or the other?


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## CAYLA (25 September 2011)

Lol, re the dishiness dirty mare
Im not a hater put it that way, there are some things I have watched and thought "not the best way to go about it" and others, I have thought he did a great job. His job cannot be easy dealing with the knobbers he deals with and some of the dogs/breeds. You don't readily see anyone else dealing with such aggression, sure you have VS who teaches dogs to sit and give a paw (she has something against teaching owners to teach their dogs not to pull) cos I have yet to see this, but never the mind. and after a one I watched with a hyper ginger wifey where her (fantastical stooge dog) actually bit the dog they where working with, bit of a joke really, all these trainers have their good and bad points.
There you have it


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## CorvusCorax (25 September 2011)

He is pretty much hated by a lot of people 
I've been to his stage show so I can't be a hypocrite, and I enjoyed it, he changed behaviour like pulling, mugging for treats etc in minutes, without all the harsh methods he is vilified for, just simple stuff.
The problem is he can be very firm and that only works on certain types of dogs and people see what he does on telly and try to copy it.
I agree with calm, assertive energy and I agree with exercise, discipline, affection, I do believe he exudes that aura that a lot of dogs take to, but if you scruff and roll the wrong dog, if you poke the wrong dog in the kidneys, you will soon find yourself missing an arm.

No doubt someone will post the video of him stringing up the husky cross who was trying to grab his arm...as I have said before, if a dog came at me like that, at that size and strength, I would also try and interfere with it's oxygen supply.

I don't think it is helpful to say X training method is ALWAYS wrong and Y method of training is ALWAYS right, life is not like that and neither are dogs.

I pick and choose methods which suit my dogs and that ranges from the 'tighten up, he won't break' trainers to the 'whale music and essential oil' trainers, there are so many people out there with something to offer us as dog owners.


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## Cop-Pop (25 September 2011)

He gives me the creeps  (possibly his teeth  )  I havent seen much of his TV appearances but he seems very commercial now


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## Alec Swan (26 September 2011)

I think that CM knows exactly what he's doing,  and he's good at what he does.  I do think that as it's a telly show,  he also selects those dogs which are suitable.  I don't often see many of the dogs actually make eye contact with him,  so think that few of them actually want to bite him.  I've had plenty of dogs who'd have taken the steps to meet him,  but then given time they'd have accepted him,  and he'd have got round them,  I feel sure.  

As with many things in life,  I don't think that it's so much what you do,  but the way that you do it,  and the confidence level which you give off.  Doubtless others,  without his experience,  have copied him,  except that they haven't,  and have come unstuck!!  I've enjoyed the few programmes which I've watched.

Alec.


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## lexiedhb (26 September 2011)

Same as any other trainer really- some bits are good, some not so- I would also like to see the dogs 3 months down the line, and see what progress they have made.


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## The Original Kao (26 September 2011)

I like him, he talks a lot of sense. Also really want to get a pair of the skates he uses, they look safer to use than roller blades 
I was really disappointed in the show he did when he picked puppies of different breeds to raise. He went for medium energy, submissive types. I would've liked to have seen how he trained a high energy dominant type pup. These are the types of pups more likely to cause problems for people and end up being re homed or in rescues IMO. He maybe does cover more in his books but I'm just going by his TV show here


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## EAST KENT (26 September 2011)

I think he is good,and his progs are informative to dog owners;after all quite a proportion of behavioural problems are due to lack of free exercise and wrong diet.
    I still use an old fashioned check chain,used properly(!) combined with his common sense methods. It has turned around quite a few unruly rescue bull terriers,even the nudge into the dog with your heel (right leg behind left and nudge dog) does seem to work well in reminding a dog of good behaviour.It`s training the PEOPLE that is the problem!
    Too often these reformed bull terriers go off to new homes,and before you can wink some idiot has persuaded them a harness "stops pulling", and only train with treats etc.


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## MurphysMinder (26 September 2011)

I saw him when he was touring the UK, until then I had never seen him as don't have the extra tv channels.  I enjoyed the show and saw nothing I disagreed with, he spoke a lot of sense imo.  I know dog owners and trainers who highly rate his training methods, I think the problem comes with any tv trainer when people try to copy his methods without really knowing what they are doing, or knowing if their dog is suitable for that sort of training.


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## Maggie2009 (26 September 2011)

I have seen a lot of his shows  and think he does a great job.His understanding of dogs is great,and i think more importantly,the application of psychology to the owners demonstarates that this is where the main problem lies with difficult and aggressive dogs.Some of the owners on the shows either need locking up or sectioning under the mental health act.There are some very odd and eccentric people in the States.I do think his strength is dealing with these owners.


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## Hedwards (26 September 2011)

Agree with what many others have said, some of his stuff is great, other bits not so IMO. I do think he does really well to put up with some of the mad owners seen on his programme, and I dont think I've seen any other TV 'dog trainers' deal with the types of issues he has!

I missed the series he did in the UK, would have been interesting to see if the owners were different!?

I've read a couple of his books, and found them helpful and informative.


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## lula (26 September 2011)

CaveCanem said:



			I do believe he exudes that aura that a lot of dogs take to, but if you scruff and roll the wrong dog, if you poke the wrong dog in the kidneys, you will soon find yourself missing an arm....
		
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yes i have often thought this when i see that little backward kick he recommends giving to the haunches to get a dog to 'focus' !!

regarding people hating him though ive seen a lot of contentious posts about him on other dog forums and a lot of people do seem to feel this way but i dont truly get why.

Regarding the over commercialism of CM, thats when i become turned off,  their PR machine and the money coming in from the whole production with how many t shirts and videos they can sell becomes bigger than the genuine desire to help the dogs.
a bit like how how that Parelli training circus for horses has now become too in my opinion.


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## Booboos (26 September 2011)

I find his TV programmes interesting but personally that kind of approach does not fit in well with my character. I don't think I would be very good at the dominance thing so I prefer other training methods. To be fair I've never had aggressive dogs nor do I know how to deal with one!


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## Clodagh (26 September 2011)

I think hes great and love the fact that his first bit of advice is usually 'take it for a walk'.
I think a lot of what he does is common sense but he knows when to apply pressure and when to back off  - the same reason Monty Roberts, under all the bullshit, is actually a good horse trainer, they both read body language very well IMO.


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## soloabe (26 September 2011)

I think he is laughable and some what abusive.
I've met him in person on a summer program and while i think he loves dogs I don't think he has a clue.
Funny how now he has spent some time with some real trainers/ behaviorist his methods are rapidly changing. Thankfully.


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## Spudlet (26 September 2011)

He's not really my cup of tea. And if you tried his 'techniques' on a fair few dogs, (mine included) you'd get nowhere.

I do think it's interesting how some of his fans use the fact he is working on difficult dogs as a reason to excuse him... Henry is not exactly easy, he can be a challenging little sod, but he needs a very different approach to his training and management.


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## CAYLA (26 September 2011)

I use "difficult" and I mean in terms of the levels of "aggression he deals with" which is alot different to recall/general behaviour and bratishness (which he does not deal with/or certainly not alot) Im not sure how his skills would fair up on those I think he could possibly be pants at teaching the whole recall thing I think VS is best with that.


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## Oberon (26 September 2011)

I found the 'husky hanging' video after seeing it mentioned here.
	
	
		
		
	


	





My Salem is around the same size as that dog and likely just as powerful. I can't imagine anyone else tackling that dog's aggression without a full protective suit and a muzzle 
	
	
		
		
	


	





The dude has a pair of brass ones


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## Oberon (26 September 2011)

He also does marriage guidance

[YOUTUBE]hShB6MhdqJE[/YOUTUBE]


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## Dobiegirl (27 September 2011)

Very funny.


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## EAST KENT (27 September 2011)

Maggie2009 said:



			I have seen a lot of his shows  and think he does a great job.His understanding of dogs is great,and i think more importantly,the application of psychology to the owners demonstarates that this is where the main problem lies with difficult and aggressive dogs.Some of the owners on the shows either need locking up or sectioning under the mental health act.There are some very odd and eccentric people in the States.I do think his strength is dealing with these owners.
		
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 Indeed! Do you remember the lady with white mini bull terriers?She boasted about her great successes with her dogs to him,to his credit he did`nt squish her.The dog involved was so funny,she just was`nt ahead of it`s game (despite her many training awards!) so by the time she was correcting it it was on level nine. 
  Cesar  got it first time, result a well behaved mini bull. He`s good


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## Sandstone1 (27 September 2011)

katielou said:



			I think he is laughable and some what abusive.
I've met him in person on a summer program and while i think he loves dogs I don't think he has a clue.
Funny how now he has spent some time with some real trainers/ behaviorist his methods are rapidly changing. Thankfully.
		
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I agree, Imo hes the canine worlds answer to parrelli!


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## Teaselmeg (27 September 2011)

itsmylife said:



			I agree, Imo hes the canine worlds answer to parrelli!
		
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And funnily enough he has done an episode with Mr Parrelli !

For those who think he reads dogs really well, watch it with the sound down and a copy of Turid Rugaas' Calming Signals book.  This is one of the reasons the dog training community are up in arms against him, he gets dog body language so wrong.

Positive, reward based behaviourists regularly deal with and help aggressive dogs, so the ' he deals with dogs that other trainers would PTS' doesn't cut it I'm afraid. 

I've posted this before, but it does sum him up quite well:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_fiEvW_429o&feature=youtube_gdata_player


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## Sandstone1 (27 September 2011)

Exactly! Anyone with any knowledge of dogs body language should be able to see it, but for some reason some people think hes great. I find it worrying that peope try to copy him. 
Im just very glad that the CM wanabee that was on th one show recently has been dropped due to the hundreds of complaints from viewers and many dog charities including the dogs trust, blue cross and many more.


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## Cahill (27 September 2011)

not heard of him before(yes,do live in my own little world lol) but have watched some utube recently.

surely it`s like monty roberts etc in the horse world,common sense and use which bits are useful to yourself but dont try any beyond your own capabilities?

what exactly dont people like/disagree with?


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## EAST KENT (27 September 2011)

Exactly Cahill, lots of Monty Roberts stuff is common sense ,giving a name to some things we have all done..join up for instance. Cesar is the same deal; one of my puppy owners used his methods entirely,his mini bull terrier is exemplary in her behaviour.Another friend in Bavaria trains her big family of mini bulls his way,they are a joy,all behaving perfectly in a pack as house dogs.
   Some hard headed breeds can be so charged up they would`nt even notice treats,some come in as welfare cases and mostly raw feeding and these training methods work well and turn them around.
  Personally ,once they are checking in to me ,then yes,reward is part of it too.


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## lula (27 September 2011)

Teaselmeg said:



			I've posted this before, but it does sum him up quite well:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_fiEvW_429o&feature=youtube_gdata_player

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well thats a load of rubbish. 
is this aimed at Cesar Milan solely? where has he ever said he's a 'mystical dog trainer' ?


make your point well and i'll take it on board but that vid is just bitchy petty sniping


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## Onyxia (27 September 2011)

My son has this recorded, cracks me up again and again 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uHatVTpdlx4&feature=BFa&list=PLA29210F3ABFC59B5&lf=results_video

CM is not a god nor is he the devil.
I have only scene his TV shows which can;t be a rounded representative view of his trainin- we all know you can't correct deep rooted issues in 60 mins and it is pointless to try 
He seems to make the point that most problems begin with the handler and while I have seen some things that make me cringe I have also seen  some well thought out work- I just wish he would stop the "hippy speak"  

I don't really understand the whole "guru" scene TBH and would always prefere to pick a trainer I trust IRL to work with regulary to prevent problems in the first place alongside reading/watching as much as possable to help me  to tease out what I think will work with dog X in situation Y.

No one trainer will EVER work well for every dog/horse/human and I think on the whole, CM does little harm while doing a lot of good- hsi clients seem to be happy with the results in the catch up shows- but then again, TV show edits 

As with the prat who must not be named  CM will only be a problem if muppetts start to copy without a trainer on hand to advise them.


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## Spring Feather (27 September 2011)

I liken Cesars way to old school horsemanship.  He has the natural intuition/feel for how it is and he is a very competent handler.  I sometimes sit and watch his programmes when he's working with all these hapless owners and think to myself "how can so many people get dog-raising so wrong!"


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## Teaselmeg (27 September 2011)

lula said:



			well thats a load of rubbish. 
is this aimed at Cesar Milan solely? where has he ever said he's a 'mystical dog trainer' ?


make your point well and i'll take it on board but that vid is just bitchy petty sniping
		
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How is that petty bitchy sniping for goodness sake !!  Yes I know that CM does not say he is a 'mystical dog trainer' but he does call himself the 'Dog Whisperer' !!!  I believe that cartoon was designed to show people what is behind his big smile and inaccurate interpretation of what is shown on his show.

The major dog rescues and training organisations in this country do not approve of his methods.  http://www.dogwelfarecampaign.org/press-statement.php

I totally agree with him tellling people to give their dogs proper exercise and to give their dog's rules and boundaries to live within a family home, its his totally outdated methods to enforce those rules that I have a BIG problem with.


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## Clodagh (27 September 2011)

TeaselMeg-  I love the pics of your loppity longdogs! Fab.


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## Cinnamontoast (27 September 2011)

I love the way he grits his teeth and says 'suntines' instead of sometimes.  I'm a shallow cow, but I defy anyone to learn a new language then present show using that language. Yeah, I'm weird, I study how he speaks cos I'm a language teacher. 

I like some of his methods, a lot of them, actually, although I'm not sure I like the whole dominance thing. The OH tried it briefly with Zak, who reacted badly and went all submissive. He's now fine, I'd never let the OH try that again.


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## Foxhunter49 (27 September 2011)

As with anything, if someone is successful then they are going to be decried.

CM was actually known for training Rottweilers to a very hgh standard for protection way before he was TV famous.

The one thing that good trainers all have is that they are confident in their abilities to achieve what they want. This passes through to the animal and that, in my opinion, is well over 90% of the 'battle' won. By keeping calm and not allowing your heart rate to change passes through be it, horse, dog or child. 

I was impressed with Monty Rpberts when he first came over here but now you would have to pay me a lot of money to go see him. With fame comes more and more commercialism and, he is not all that he seems. 

I never got to see CM when he was here but his methods are effective and he achieves results faster then most. 

As with all - it is rarely the animals fault, more the humans.


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## Alec Swan (27 September 2011)

A good post Foxhunter.

Not only with dog training,  but in many other aspects of life,  it never fails to surprise me,  how so many have success (on this occasion with dogs),  with perhaps 2 or 3,  and then sit in judgement of those who have experience,  running into the hundreds.  Before we can speak with experience,  then we need to make,  and correct our many mistakes.

Milan is a first class dog man.  I've watched him,  admittedly only on the telly,  and I've seen him do things,  and approach problems,  as I wouldn't.  That doesn't make the man wrong,  it's just that I would face the task from a different direction.  Whilst I might question,  I most certainly wouldn't contradict him.

Short of it being our full time work,  I do just wonder how many,  who are so young,  can have acquired a degree of experience which would entitle them to contradict him.

It isn't my intention to ruffle anyones feathers,  but theory and experience,  are all so often poles apart.

Alec.


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## Teaselmeg (27 September 2011)

Alec Swan said:



			A good post Foxhunter.

Not only with dog training,  but in many other aspects of life,  it never fails to surprise me,  how so many have success (on this occasion with dogs),  with perhaps 2 or 3,  and then sit in judgement of those who have experience,  running into the hundreds.  Before we can speak with experience,  then we need to make,  and correct our many mistakes.

Milan is a first class dog man.  I've watched him,  admittedly only on the telly,  and I've seen him do things,  and approach problems,  as I wouldn't.  That doesn't make the man wrong,  it's just that I would face the task from a different direction.  Whilst I might question,  I most certainly wouldn't contradict him.

Short of it being our full time work,  I do just wonder how many,  who are so young,  can have acquired a degree of experience which would entitle them to contradict him.

It isn't my intention to ruffle anyones feathers,  but theory and experience,  are all so often poles apart.

Alec.
		
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You are right Alec I have not worked with 100's of dogs, I'm just someone who has bothered to look into modern, humane training techniques to help my fear aggressive dog. However, the organisations who put their name to that statement I posted are extremely experienced, deal with aggressive dogs every day and still don't resort to bullying a dog to stop it being fearful.

Positive, reward based training is not about constantly stuffing food into the dog's mouth, its not about letting the dog do whatever it feels like. Its about training the dog using a method it understands, its about giving the dog an alternative behaviour instead of just punishing it for doing what is perceived to be wrong. My dogs have boundaries, they are not my children, they also want to be with me, trust me and are not worried about me suddenly kicking/poking them for being worried about something.


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## lula (27 September 2011)

Foxhunter49 said:



			As with anything, if someone is successful then they are going to be decried.

CM was actually known for training Rottweilers to a very hgh standard for protection way before he was TV famous.

The one thing that good trainers all have is that they are confident in their abilities to achieve what they want. This passes through to the animal and that, in my opinion, is well over 90% of the 'battle' won. By keeping calm and not allowing your heart rate to change passes through be it, horse, dog or child. 

I was impressed with Monty Rpberts when he first came over here but now you would have to pay me a lot of money to go see him. With fame comes more and more commercialism and, he is not all that he seems. 

I never got to see CM when he was here but his methods are effective and he achieves results faster then most. 

As with all - it is rarely the animals fault, more the humans.
		
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100% agree.


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## cremedemonthe (27 September 2011)

lula said:



			100% agree.
		
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Also agree 100% and very well put.


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## CorvusCorax (27 September 2011)

Anyone who can train Rotties to a high standard in protection work needs a bloody medal


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## CorvusCorax (27 September 2011)

Teaselmeg, you know what to do with a fear aggressive gazehound and I applaud you for doing the best for her (I remember the methods you were talking about and indeed I ended up incorporating some of them in my own training).
But some dogs are not going to respond to the same methods you use on a fear aggressive gazehound.

So, a question to EVERYONE, the positive only people, the positive (but are prepared to use compulsion) people and the yank and crank people.
That husky x - it's coming for you, right at your upper body. It's got a handle, either a collar or a lead. You have a couple of seconds to act and there is no one close enough to help.
What do you do? I'd be interested to know.


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## Spring Feather (27 September 2011)

CaveCanem said:



			That husky x - it's coming for you, right at your upper body. It's got a handle, either a collar or a lead. You have a couple of seconds to act and there is no one close enough to help.
What do you do? I'd be interested to know.
		
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I'd stand my ground and whilst remaining calm try to make myself look bigger than I am.  If I don't get excited, nervous or upset the dog shouldn't have that opportunity to treat me as prey.  Same as you would do with horses.


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## lula (27 September 2011)

Teaselmeg said:



			How is that petty bitchy sniping for goodness sake !!  Yes I know that CM does not say he is a 'mystical dog trainer' but he does call himself the 'Dog Whisperer' !!!  I believe that cartoon was designed to show people what is behind his big smile and inaccurate interpretation of what is shown on his show.
		
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how is a daft cartoon with teddy bear heads and made up dialogue an accurate interpretation of anything?


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## lula (27 September 2011)

CaveCanem said:



			That husky x - it's coming for you, right at your upper body. It's got a handle, either a collar or a lead. You have a couple of seconds to act and there is no one close enough to help.
What do you do? I'd be interested to know.
		
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im probably not the right person to ask here CC, id probably cry.


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## soloabe (27 September 2011)

Alec Swan said:



			A good post Foxhunter.

Not only with dog training,  but in many other aspects of life,  it never fails to surprise me,  how so many have success (on this occasion with dogs),  with perhaps 2 or 3,  and then sit in judgement of those who have experience,  running into the hundreds.  Before we can speak with experience,  then we need to make,  and correct our many mistakes.

Milan is a first class dog man.  I've watched him,  admittedly only on the telly,  and I've seen him do things,  and approach problems,  as I wouldn't.  That doesn't make the man wrong,  it's just that I would face the task from a different direction.  Whilst I might question,  I most certainly wouldn't contradict him.

Short of it being our full time work,  I do just wonder how many,  who are so young,  can have acquired a degree of experience which would entitle them to contradict him.

It isn't my intention to ruffle anyones feathers,  but theory and experience,  are all so often poles apart.

Alec.
		
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For me its not just about experience its about results. While you may see results at the end of a show (while many experienced people just see a shut down dog).
Have you watched the follow up series that was broadcast here? A huge amount of the dogs from the show went on to be PTS or passed on.
They are like ticking time bombs.
I don't think he reads dogs well. Someone that does would react before the dog has a chance to even react. Even me from the other side of a TV screen can see the dogs whole body change and yet he doesn't react until the dog is in the "red zone". Thats not reading a dog well.

Frankly anyone who uses his methods is either an idiot or someone who has no grasp of learning laws and dogs.

Whilst i may not have as much experience as some i have a heck of a lot more than most and i continue to push my education in the dog world day after day after day and you will find the best trainers in the world do as well they don't harp on outdated, debunked theories.


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## soloabe (27 September 2011)

CaveCanem said:



			Teaselmeg, you know what to do with a fear aggressive gazehound and I applaud you for doing the best for her (I remember the methods you were talking about and indeed I ended up incorporating some of them in my own training).
But some dogs are not going to respond to the same methods you use on a fear aggressive gazehound.

So, a question to EVERYONE, the positive only people, the positive (but are prepared to use compulsion) people and the yank and crank people.
That husky x - it's coming for you, right at your upper body. It's got a handle, either a collar or a lead. You have a couple of seconds to act and there is no one close enough to help.
What do you do? I'd be interested to know.
		
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As i side note i don't think there is such thing as positive only.

I don't think he did much wrong in protecting himself from that dog that clip shows really nothing of his "training"
All of the clips of him kicking dogs (not just his foot touch) stringing dogs up that are not being aggressive towards him (the bulldog comes to mind, since PTS) dogs that are throwing mountains worth of calming signals left right and center that he continues to pressure into a reaction. Thats not training.

I also don't buy into the whole "he deals with aggressive cases no one else will".
Do some research into some wonderful behaviorist along the lines of McDevitt and look at the cases she takes on it makes his cases looked like babies.


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## CorvusCorax (28 September 2011)

I did not say 'he deals with aggressive cases no one else will'?
I'm trying to say that not everyone who uses compulsion or not everyone who thinks that *some* of CM's methods and his message might be useful in some cases, is a bullying dog abuser, which is  often the insinuation.
Or indeed, an idiot.


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## CorvusCorax (28 September 2011)

KLH as another side note, I know you've worked with pits a lot.
If a pit is in the red zone, what are the methods you use? 
I am not being snarky, I am genuinely interested.
I appreciate the ideal scenario is to spot the warning signs and not let the dog get to that stage in the first place, but in this situation, it's too late, you're on hand to help - what happens?


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## soloabe (28 September 2011)

CaveCanem said:



			I did not say 'he deals with aggressive cases no one else will'?
I'm trying to say that not everyone who uses compulsion or not everyone who thinks that *some* of CM's methods and his message might be useful in some cases, is a bullying dog abuser, which is  often the insinuation.
Or indeed, an idiot.
		
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No you did not just a couple of people before you did (i have no idea how to multi quote)

I think some of his messages are useful, Exercise, boundaries etc

However i have not seen any training techniques that are useful.


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## soloabe (28 September 2011)

CaveCanem said:



			KLH as another side note, I know you've worked with pits a lot.
If a pit is in the red zone, what are the methods you use? 
I am not being snarky, I am genuinely interested.
I appreciate the ideal scenario is to spot the warning signs and not let the dog get to that stage in the first place, but in this situation, it's too late, you're on hand to help - what happens?
		
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Give me more situational info? What is the dog doing "in the red zone" what is he going after. I think its hard to say what i would do unless i have a whole situation.

If the dog was going after me? I would have no problem doing something similar to the husky to protect myself. However that is not a training technique that is just self preservation and as i have said i have no issue with that.


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## CorvusCorax (28 September 2011)

Well, as you explained in your previous post re the husky, let's assume he is going after another dog then. Fixated, locked on, in drive. Not scared or insecure. Having a proper go.
(I realised after typing that, that these days I always reply to questions like that in the same way as you did, I don't know, I didn't see, I wasn't there and this one hasn't even happened )


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## soloabe (28 September 2011)

Also as a side note most of the dogs on his show appear to be reactive not agressive a much easier problem to fix.


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## CorvusCorax (28 September 2011)

This is a side note from CM  
If you're worried about have-a-go heroism, PM me!!!


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## soloabe (28 September 2011)

Removing post as dangers of posting such a thing have been pointed out via PM

Will PM you CC


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## soloabe (28 September 2011)

CaveCanem said:



			This is a side note from CM  
If you're worried about have-a-go heroism, PM me!!!
		
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Say what?


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## soloabe (28 September 2011)

I shall post my blog posts of "scary" the latest shelter pit i have worked with and it gives a full step by step run down of what i did with him.

Going to the airport back in a while. Maybe tomorrow for you.


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## Alec Swan (28 September 2011)

Not all,  but most dogs,  want to be man's servant.  The real trick is to find the key,  and as I'm getting ever older,  I'm becoming a _little _ better at recognising it! 

I have a friend who uses a clicker training thing,  and a little bag of treats.  Now *that* filled me with horror,  and she drove me to distraction,  *BUT* she finds that it works,  which is good enough. 

I generally try to get inside the dogs head,  by other means.  I have a broadly based system which works on how I am,  as a person,  but it's open to constant alteration!  With the possible exception of when I've laid a track for a difficult dog,  I never use food as an inducement.  I never use training aids,  I want the dog to listen to me,  because he wants to.  That doesn't mean that I'm right,  and others are wrong,  it's what I find works best.

There is no simple system which works for all dogs,  and all situations.  I've watched some very good and experienced trainers,  and the more experienced seem to approach different dogs from differing directions.  

Teaselmeg,  you seem to have made real progress.  You seem to have found the,  or your,  key.  Well done.  The trick is to do what works!!  The most difficult dogs can all so often,  be the most rewarding,  but all so often,  it takes daily maintenance,  and sometimes forever,  it seems!! 

Alec.


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## CorvusCorax (28 September 2011)

Sometimes people put stuff on the web, and people do it because they read about it on the internet, and that isn't always the wisest thing to do, was what I meant by my PM comment 

Thanks for the reply  

I wouldn't do anything because I have never dealt with a real pit, which is why I asked  but as with my own dog, I had to learn how to read him and his reactions and his triggers and his warning signs. Once that was done, it was a lot easier to control.
He was insecure and feeding off me.
As mentioned before, when the dog is mid frenzy, it is too late and all that can be done is to remove the dog as calmly and quickly as possible.

I have spoken about BAT via PM with a couple of users but have never seen it done in practise or in person. 

Oh and I really am going to bed now, I promise 
But here's the thing I don't like about X is right and Y is wrong.
People want to do what is best for their dog.

Person A is told that they need to be very firm and make the dog do as it is told, he doesn't need incentives, he should just DO it and RESPECT the owner and know his place because any other way is weak and wimpy.
The dog is not strong enough and breaks down and is asked to leave the class because it is not responding or progressing and the owner feels like they have let the dog down - they just wanted the best for the dog and were told that this way was the right way.

Person B is told that they must only ever use positive methods, never have to raise their voice or use a control collar - humane harnesses only - of any sort or say the word 'no' because any other way is cruel. 
The dog is too strong for this and it is not responding or progressing, they are asked to leave the class.
The owner feels like they have let the dog down - they just wanted the best for the dog and were told that this way was the right way.

Both of these stories are true. 
Telling either of them they were wrong and stupid is wrong and stupid.
And there are a million other ways to do things.


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## CorvusCorax (28 September 2011)

Right, last one, HONEST! Alec most of the big rufty tufty working dog people I know, start their dogs with clicker training and food, and ALL of them use food on tracks 
Although it would be nice not to have pockets full of food going through the washing machine constantly *sigh*


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## EAST KENT (28 September 2011)

CaveCanem said:



			KLH as another side note, I know you've worked with pits a lot.
If a pit is in the red zone, what are the methods you use? 
I am not being snarky, I am genuinely interested.
I appreciate the ideal scenario is to spot the warning signs and not let the dog get to that stage in the first place, but in this situation, it's too late, you're on hand to help - what happens?
		
Click to expand...

 I would be very interested to know too! Tell me do...bull terrier zoned out and attached to me,I thanked God it had a good collar on and eventually detached it and threw it through a kennel door,PTS shortly after.There were NO warning signs,I had multiple holes in various parts,three weeks of antibiotics at mega strength.So..what would YOU do,we are talking bull terrier remember,not sight hound /spaniel whatever.Do you think it might have noticed a doggie choc whilst it was clamped and ragging on my arm/leg/foot???
   Believe me CC,my lovely Mali,although highly trained,is an absolute wally compared to a bull terrier that is zoned.HOWEVER,detaching them from another dog?Child`s play,tourniquet the collar ,it will NOT turn on you,once they are zoned into an object that is the entire focus.Unfortunately ,as stated,that time it was me,and by the way it bloody well hurt for weeks.


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## CAYLA (28 September 2011)

Oh for FFS, I wrote a huge reply (probably would have been cursed by the sheer length) and lost the lot I also unlike others used an EXAMPLE, which was a dog I worked with from here so folk where familiar with him (Lady La La's Tye) who was at her wits end and had been given all manor of advice (Some way of the mark).
Never mind im pooped, I will try again tomorrow.

I did hit on how I believe it's narrow  minded to push one way of training on folk, esp if it's based on "reading" and not experience and you are trying to push the same method on all dog and all behaviours (crazy) Im hearing alot of his lately andhave read posts from other forums when im bored stating just this.
Also what alec said, there is a big difference between having all the time in the world with your pet dog and trying to deal with maybe 3 dogs a week with different and varied issues, some with owners some without.
And basic training cannot be compared to difficult and dangerous behaviours.

Nuff from me, im sick sulks.........Im sure you could always go back before (forum) and your reply would still be there whenever you lost it

And to add, I did not say, "CM was the only one who could deal with the levels of aggression he does" I said " You don't readily see others dealing with this type of aggression. I may not have been me referred too, I read fast and cannot quote without quoting whole replies.


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## CAYLA (28 September 2011)

Person A is told that they need to be very firm and make the dog do as it is told, he doesn't need incentives, he should just DO it and RESPECT the owner and know his place because any other way is weak and wimpy.
The dog is not strong enough and breaks down and is asked to leave the class because it is not responding or progressing and the owner feels like they have let the dog down - they just wanted the best for the dog and were told that this way was the right way.

Person B is told that they must only ever use positive methods, never have to raise their voice or use a control collar - humane harnesses only - of any sort or say the word 'no' because any other way is cruel. 
The dog is too strong for this and it is not responding or progressing, they are asked to leave the class.
The owner feels like they have let the dog down - they just wanted the best for the dog and were told that this way was the right way.


MY EXAMPLE OF QUOTING ^^^^LMAO^^^^^ WHAT CC SAID

And this narrow mindedness leaves the dog in limbo and the owner!
If one or both methods are needed, use them.


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## Teaselmeg (28 September 2011)

CC that's interesting that you mention BAT, Sprocket was a demo dog on the first BAT seminar in the UK earlier this year and we use some of the techniques we learnt.


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## lexiedhb (28 September 2011)

CAYLA said:



			Person A is told that they need to be very firm and make the dog do as it is told, he doesn't need incentives, he should just DO it and RESPECT the owner and know his place because any other way is weak and wimpy.
The dog is not strong enough and breaks down and is asked to leave the class because it is not responding or progressing and the owner feels like they have let the dog down - they just wanted the best for the dog and were told that this way was the right way.

Person B is told that they must only ever use positive methods, never have to raise their voice or use a control collar - humane harnesses only - of any sort or say the word 'no' because any other way is cruel. 
The dog is too strong for this and it is not responding or progressing, they are asked to leave the class.
The owner feels like they have let the dog down - they just wanted the best for the dog and were told that this way was the right way.


MY EXAMPLE OF QUOTING ^^^^LMAO^^^^^ WHAT CC SAID

And this narrow mindedness leaves the dog in limbo and the owner!
If one or both methods are needed, use them.
		
Click to expand...


this is really interesting actually- as Dex is similar- definately needs NO's, leave its etc, in the voice of doom, but give him a strong check on a chain and he turns round and lamps you for it.... middle ground for the sensitive chap, who if pushed to much will throw his weight around....


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## Oberon (28 September 2011)

I will say that the whole pinning thing is useful for us.

Hubby is completely dog phobic and always has been, he accepts and loves our dogs but is totally chicken of any others.

I am primary carer of them. Hubby just tags along for walks sometimes and cuddles them when he gets home from work.

Having never been around dog, he just doesn't have any confidence or dog sense. However, Salem (who is a big, rambuncious, lunatic) simply adores hubby and gives him much respect.

When there have been occasions where Salem has been an ******* and pushed his luck, hubby has pinned him. 

I've never found the need to do such a thing as my voice is strong and I'm not saying it has done any good, training wise, but it's given hubby a tool to use where he feels in control and that's improved his confidence.

Salem just thinks it's funny.....


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## lula (28 September 2011)

'Person A is told that they need to be very firm and make the dog do as it is told, he doesn't need incentives, he should just DO it and RESPECT the owner and know his place because any other way is weak and wimpy.
The dog is not strong enough and breaks down and is asked to leave the class because it is not responding or progressing and the owner feels like they have let the dog down - they just wanted the best for the dog and were told that this way was the right way.

Person B is told that they must only ever use positive methods, never have to raise their voice or use a control collar - humane harnesses only - of any sort or say the word 'no' because any other way is cruel. 
The dog is too strong for this and it is not responding or progressing, they are asked to leave the class.
The owner feels like they have let the dog down - they just wanted the best for the dog and were told that this way was the right way.

Both of these stories are true. 
Telling either of them they were wrong and stupid is wrong and stupid.
And there are a million other ways to do things.'


this is an excellent example CC 

im a bit of a beginner at this dog owning never having had a dog in my life before up until 8 months ago and now suddenly find myself with a fear aggressive border collie im trying to cope with and am having to educate myself whilest finding a training method (and a trainer) to cope with her issues going forward.

CM does appeal to my common sense and since im not a 'fluffy bunny' kinda person im not going to start screaming 'abuse' at the slightest thing as long as a trainer is firm but fair , totally humane and his animals are happy. 

sorry for the stupid question Im assuming here his 'alpha/pack leader dog psychology is considered sound by the mainstream? 

id really not go round with my pockets full of dog food either so at the moment ive decided clicker training isnt for me but im really open minded.

i think one of the main things to come out of this thread for me is when the average dog owner tries to emulate the 'experts' on their own trouble usually follows! 

However, there does seem some bitchiness towards CM which i dont think is fair. 
there's no need to make up silly cartoons with ' you're an idiot' name calling just because you dont personally agree with someone.-no offence teaselmeg.

still be interested to hear more replies on CC's husky scenario too if any one wants to humor us...


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## EAST KENT (28 September 2011)

I think the puffed out chest alpha leader stuff suits your dog,let us know;and ,still waiting for the husky replies.Think I would fold arms ,not stare ,turn sideways and pray.Be a whole lot more worried if it were a bull terrier type of dog though.


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## CorvusCorax (28 September 2011)

Lula, don't get me wrong, as mentioned, I clicker train, I am that person with pockets full of food and a clicker and three types of ball in my pocket - I learned the hard way with B, I want my dog to see me as the source of all good things, not to fixate on other dogs or vehicles.
But at the same time he can be bratty and I do not put up with that.

EK, we all know Malis are excellent with other dogs, it's bad people they like munching on


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## Foxhunter49 (28 September 2011)

If there is one thing I have learned about animals it is that there is not one way to train them!

I have been lucky to have been born with an instinctive feel, understanding, call it what you will, with animals. When there is a problem I will first try to see the reason as to why this has happened and then I will set about meeting it head on. 
One thing I do agree with CM and that is to conquer a fear it has to met head on. 

I have never tried clicker training, there is one main reason for this and it is a simple one - I would never find the rudy clicker in any of my pockets!

What works for some might not work for others. 

For me the definition of a great trainer is one who has no set way but is willing to be versatile  according to how an animal reacts.


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## CorvusCorax (28 September 2011)

FH they come with natty little elastic wrist straps now   
Totally agree with your last comment.


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## Dobiegirl (28 September 2011)

As regards the clicker I stubbornly refused to use one for years but was suggested to use one on Fred my last Dobe, he would come at you if you checked him and was a godsend for him. The timing is important and your ability to learn body language is vital but I am a convert. I use it on all my dogs and  it has been a very useful tool, but you would be daft  having  only one tool in your tool box.


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## EAST KENT (29 September 2011)

CaveCanem said:



			Lula, don't get me wrong, as mentioned, I clicker train, I am that person with pockets full of food and a clicker and three types of ball in my pocket - I learned the hard way with B, I want my dog to see me as the source of all good things, not to fixate on other dogs or vehicles.
But at the same time he can be bratty and I do not put up with that.

EK, we all know Malis are excellent with other dogs, it's bad people they like munching on   

Click to expand...

 Precisely why our Kevin is here CC,my sort of dog,a high wired very active GSD.


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## Onyxia (29 September 2011)

CAYLA said:



			Person A is told that they need to be very firm and make the dog do as it is told, he doesn't need incentives, he should just DO it and RESPECT the owner and know his place because any other way is weak and wimpy.
The dog is not strong enough and breaks down and is asked to leave the class because it is not responding or progressing and the owner feels like they have let the dog down - they just wanted the best for the dog and were told that this way was the right way.

Person B is told that they must only ever use positive methods, never have to raise their voice or use a control collar - humane harnesses only - of any sort or say the word 'no' because any other way is cruel. 
The dog is too strong for this and it is not responding or progressing, they are asked to leave the class.
The owner feels like they have let the dog down - they just wanted the best for the dog and were told that this way was the right way.


MY EXAMPLE OF QUOTING ^^^^LMAO^^^^^ WHAT CC SAID

And this narrow mindedness leaves the dog in limbo and the owner!
If one or both methods are needed, use them.
		
Click to expand...

Well said.
The carrot Vs stick debate is as old as sin,and the truth is you need both for most dogs and noting ever replaces spending some time getting to know the "person" you are dealing with.
Methods will need to vary depending on the dog in front of you,anyone who suggests a one method fits all approach is insane quite frankly as ALL methods will need to be adapted to suit the animal.


As for husky X question, I would do whatever I felt would keep me safe TBH.
I would never advocate hurting a dog (or anything else) to educate or train,but if you are in danger because of it's actions do what needs to be done.


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## Foxhunter49 (29 September 2011)

EAST KENT said:



			I think the puffed out chest alpha leader stuff suits your dog,let us know;and ,still waiting for the husky replies.Think I would fold arms ,not stare ,turn sideways and pray.Be a whole lot more worried if it were a bull terrier type of dog though.
		
Click to expand...

There are dogs that need this sort of training.

My cousin bought a GSD pup.
At the time I had two older GSD bitches and a GSD dog. We also had two other dogs, mostly on the older side of life. When the pup, Hannah came to our house the older dogs never wanted to play with her and they would tell her so. My cousin and mother would shut them in the other room and Hannah would play with Gen, the dog. Then when he had enough and told the pup off, he too would be shut away. 
I warned all that it was wrong but they wouldn't listen. None would have hurt the pup just put her in her place.
This all resulted in Hannah, when out, running up to other dogs wanting to play and when they said, "No" she would just pitch in. 
Cousin and dog were thrown out of several training classes. They had three different trainers work privately with them - this resulted in a very on the lead or on her own, obedient dog but the moment she saw another dog she would pitch straight in.

Cousin was going to give her to the RAF but I offered to take her on for a month. I took her, leashed, a mongrel I had staying and Gen, down to the beach. Gen would go into the sea snapping at the waves. As there was no one about I let Hannah off the lead keeping the other bitch to heel. 
Hannah ran into the sea and pitched straight into Gem who swallowed a lot of water. I had to wade in and drag both dogs out. Hannah was just looking at both dogs ready to pitch in as soon as I ket her go. 
I had had enough and lifted her by her collar and proceeded to whack her with the leash, down her ribs. She never felt a thing and continued to look for the others. I hit her until she did feel it and had decided to give her six once she did feel it. 
Next thing was someone walking along the sea front had come up behind me and grabbed my arm, I let go of Hannah and next thing I knew she and Gen were standing side by side ready to go for the man.

That was it. I kept her for the month. I never had to raise a finger to her again. WHen out, and I took her where I knew there would be a lot of dogs, if she showed the slightest sign of aggression I would call her back and just growl at her and she was fine. She would periodically test the boundaries but never had another fight, with me or my cousin.

That bitch was never my cousin's dog - she was mine. Given the chance Hannah would always want to go with me. I was so tough on her but she had respect for it all.

I do not like to use hitting as a means of training but I am not frightened to if it is absolutely necessary.


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## Pix (29 September 2011)

Foxhunter49 said:



			I had had enough and lifted her by her collar and proceeded to whack her with the leash, down her ribs. She never felt a thing and continued to look for the others. I hit her until she did feel it and had decided to give her six once she did feel it.
		
Click to expand...

I'm stunned, and not in a good way. I simply cannot understand how you would not only admit to such behaviour on a public forum, but actually seem to be proud of it?

There is a world of difference between a short, sharp correction (which is mainly 'shock' factor or breaking focus, such as a quick check on a chain) and repeatedly belting your dog's rib cage. To me, hauling a dog by a collar and belting it in such a way "until it feels it" suggests lost temper. Deciding to then "give it six" suggests pure spite. It's not the behaviour I would expect of somebody who states they were "born with an instinctive feel, understanding... of animals".

You state that the dog in question was unsocialised and had no idea of the usual polite norms of dog interaction. Perhaps you could have addressed this before you let her off the lead on a beach whilst the other dog/s were playing in the surf? Maybe introduced her to one or two more "appropriate" dogs that would have made their intentions to discontinue play perfectly clear without having a gob full of seawater?

Even as a child, I was taught that temper and animals simply don't mix. That includes a kind of ineffectual relationship between our way of showing anger and doling out punishment, and an animal's way of doing the same. 

As for the man who grabbed your arm, was he trying to prevent you from beating the dog? Because that is exactly what I would have done. I also would not have been surprised if your dogs then reacted to me. Not because they are the loyal protectors we would all love them to be, but because they are great at picking up tension. Given the situation, I would imagine both were fairly aroused (physiologically) before the tension between you and this man.

Most people would step in (or at the least, rage over the internet ) if they saw the local 'chav' repeatedly smacking his dog across the rib cage (he'd probably state that he was training or correcting his dog). Why is it alright for you to engage in such behaviour?


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## Spudlet (30 September 2011)

Pix, this is the person who suggested karate kicking a hard to catch pony in the head.

Nuff said.


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## lula (30 September 2011)

Spudlet said:



			Pix, this is the person who suggested karate kicking a hard to catch pony in the head.

Nuff said.
		
Click to expand...

i saw that thread i think. was that the one where the pony was charging past/at the handler each time and said handler karate kicked it in the head each time from different sides?
i did think you'd have to be spectacularly brave to get close enough to half a tonne of galloping horse flesh to inflict such a kick! Cant think why it would work either but im digressing..

foxhunter eek  that scenario prolly not the best thing to write on the internet!

i nearly lost my temper with my dog last weekend who out of the blue started a fight with something much littler than her and left it with a bleeding ear. I couldnt look at her for the rest of the day i was so angry at her letting me down. Didnt help though. I handled things wrong. Losing your temper is easy but something im beginining to realise doesnt help one jot.


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## lexiedhb (30 September 2011)

I'd like to see you lift my dog by the collar and give it 6 of the best, whilst maintaining all your limbs- what an utterly daft thing to do, there is a HUGE difference between smacking a dog, and beating it.


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## Foxhunter49 (30 September 2011)

Pix said:



			I'm stunned, and not in a good way. I simply cannot understand how you would not only admit to such behaviour on a public forum, but actually seem to be proud of it?

*I am not saying that I was proud of it at all. *

There is a world of difference between a short, sharp correction (which is mainly 'shock' factor or breaking focus, such as a quick check on a chain) and repeatedly belting your dog's rib cage. To me, hauling a dog by a collar and belting it in such a way "until it feels it" suggests lost temper. Deciding to then "give it six" suggests pure spite. It's not the behaviour I would expect of somebody who states they were "born with an instinctive feel, understanding... of animals".

*I absolutely agree with this, BUT, all else had been tried with her. When she was in that red zone a lead correction never did a thing to bring her attention back to you. The fact that I whacked her several times before she started to pay attention to me showed what a high zone she was in.*

You state that the dog in question was unsocialised and had no idea of the usual polite norms of dog interaction. Perhaps you could have addressed this before you let her off the lead on a beach whilst the other dog/s were playing in the surf? Maybe introduced her to one or two more "appropriate" dogs that would have made their intentions to discontinue play perfectly clear without having a gob full of seawater?

*The reason I let her off the lead with Gen already loose was that she had always interacted well with him prior. *

Even as a child, I was taught that temper and animals simply don't mix. That includes a kind of ineffectual relationship between our way of showing anger and doling out punishment, and an animal's way of doing the same. 

*Again agreed, I have not lost my temper with any animal - been frustrated, yes, but never 'lost it' The last time I saw red was when I was 15 and a boy deliberately ran over a cat that was sitting on the pavement, even then I knew exactly what I was doing.*

As for the man who grabbed your arm, was he trying to prevent you from beating the dog? Because that is exactly what I would have done. I also would not have been surprised if your dogs then reacted to me. Not because they are the loyal protectors we would all love them to be, but because they are great at picking up tension. Given the situation, I would imagine both were fairly aroused (physiologically) before the tension between you and this man.

Most people would step in (or at the least, rage over the internet ) if they saw the local 'chav' repeatedly smacking his dog across the rib cage (he'd probably state that he was training or correcting his dog). Why is it alright for you to engage in such behaviour?
		
Click to expand...

*I would intervene too. When I was hitting her it was going flat along her ribs, it was not knocking the breath out of her lungs and I doubt very much if she had the slightest bruise on her. As said, it was an extreme circumstance, and I am not proud of it. Just stating that in this instance, and I knew the bitch well, it did make her realise that there was a consequence for her behaviour.
As for the protection, Gen would have laid down his life for me. He was very (over) protective of me. One time when I fell from a horse and was concussed, he would not allow any of the medics to get near me. *








Spudlet said:



			Pix, this is the person who suggested karate kicking a hard to catch pony in the head.

Nuff said.
		
Click to expand...

*I did not suggest that anyone karate kicks a horse in the head. I was saying that a friend of mine, who knew nothing about horses, did this when he tried to get his step daughters pony that had been chasing them all out of the field.*


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## EAST KENT (30 September 2011)

I once bred a lovely blue collie bitch, her hobby became rounding up my chooks ,and as they clumped together ,practically covering their eyes with their wings she would just go `round faster pulling out tail feathers as she went. After many corrections I got mad,and as the poster ,scruffed her ,held her up and larroped her with a hunting whip. She NEVER chased another chook,her herding and guarding instinct remained intact . My alternative was probably PTS,as it was she lived happily to fifteen.
  Every dog is different  and may require changes in training techniques.


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## Sandstone1 (30 September 2011)

Foxhunter49 said:



			There are dogs that need this sort of training.

My cousin bought a GSD pup.
At the time I had two older GSD bitches and a GSD dog. We also had two other dogs, mostly on the older side of life. When the pup, Hannah came to our house the older dogs never wanted to play with her and they would tell her so. My cousin and mother would shut them in the other room and Hannah would play with Gen, the dog. Then when he had enough and told the pup off, he too would be shut away. 
I warned all that it was wrong but they wouldn't listen. None would have hurt the pup just put her in her place.
This all resulted in Hannah, when out, running up to other dogs wanting to play and when they said, "No" she would just pitch in. 
Cousin and dog were thrown out of several training classes. They had three different trainers work privately with them - this resulted in a very on the lead or on her own, obedient dog but the moment she saw another dog she would pitch straight in.

Cousin was going to give her to the RAF but I offered to take her on for a month. I took her, leashed, a mongrel I had staying and Gen, down to the beach. Gen would go into the sea snapping at the waves. As there was no one about I let Hannah off the lead keeping the other bitch to heel. 
Hannah ran into the sea and pitched straight into Gem who swallowed a lot of water. I had to wade in and drag both dogs out. Hannah was just looking at both dogs ready to pitch in as soon as I ket her go. 
I had had enough and lifted her by her collar and proceeded to whack her with the leash, down her ribs. She never felt a thing and continued to look for the others. I hit her until she did feel it and had decided to give her six once she did feel it. 
Next thing was someone walking along the sea front had come up behind me and grabbed my arm, I let go of Hannah and next thing I knew she and Gen were standing side by side ready to go for the man.

That was it. I kept her for the month. I never had to raise a finger to her again. WHen out, and I took her where I knew there would be a lot of dogs, if she showed the slightest sign of aggression I would call her back and just growl at her and she was fine. She would periodically test the boundaries but never had another fight, with me or my cousin.

That bitch was never my cousin's dog - she was mine. Given the chance Hannah would always want to go with me. I was so tough on her but she had respect for it all.

I do not like to use hitting as a means of training but I am not frightened to if it is absolutely necessary.
		
Click to expand...



You do realise you could be in court for what you have admitted to doing?
People like you should not be allowed animals


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## Foxhunter49 (30 September 2011)

EAST KENT said:



			I once bred a lovely blue collie bitch, her hobby became rounding up my chooks ,and as they clumped together ,practically covering their eyes with their wings she would just go `round faster pulling out tail feathers as she went. After many corrections I got mad,and as the poster ,scruffed her ,held her up and larroped her with a hunting whip. She NEVER chased another chook,her herding and guarding instinct remained intact . My alternative was probably PTS,as it was she lived happily to fifteen.
  Every dog is different  and may require changes in training techniques.
		
Click to expand...

So, you too could be had up for cruelty!

Modern ideals seem to be taking humans further and further away from nature.

I am not and never have advocated beating any animal but will resort to returning violence with discomfort for the perpetrator _if other methods do not work and it is warranted._.

I cannot begin to count the number of hours I have spent working with nervous/traumatised/abused dogs and horses. A lot of these were animals that had been on their way to euthanasia but patience, understanding, experience and a variety of training methods turned them around. With all they needed boundaries and rules and when they over stepped corrections, some tougher than others but always fair.

Had I allowed Gen to recover his breath and then et the bitch loose the old dog would have really done her damage - that would have been 'natural'. He would have hurt her far more than ever I did. 

Decry me all you like. I feel no guilt over what happened and will - when it is  absolutely necessary, which is very rarely, do the same.


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## lula (30 September 2011)

i read a lot of things on these forums concerning different people's methods of training and husbandry of their animals.
many things i read people doing that i dont personally agree with or  know i wouldnt do myself but i try not to judge the things people may have done in the heat of the moment as i wasnt there to witness it and they probably have a lot more experience that me.

forgive me if im wrong  foxhunter but i get the impression you are from the 'old school'? and while no way am i condoning the beating of a dog i know the previous generations were tougher with their animals than we perhaps are today.
Generally, the foxhunter's posts ive read i thought made a lot of common sense


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## EAST KENT (1 October 2011)

lula said:



			i read a lot of things on these forums concerning different people's methods of training and husbandry of their animals.
many things i read people doing that i dont personally agree with or  know i wouldnt do myself but i try not to judge the things people may have done in the heat of the moment as i wasnt there to witness it and they probably have a lot more experience that me.

forgive me if im wrong  foxhunter but i get the impression you are from the 'old school'? and while no way am i condoning the beating of a dog i know the previous generations were tougher with their animals than we perhaps are today.
Generally, the foxhunter's posts ive read i thought made a lot of common sense
		
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It  makes perfect sense for that instance at the time and with that animal. And actually ,the reason we have such God awful kids around today is because a teacher can no longer impose any control. The world is harvesting it`s reward for going completely bonkers.


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## Sandstone1 (1 October 2011)

Im sorry, but I think its barbaric that people think its ok to beat dogs.
In this day and age with modern training methods there is no need to resort to this sort of thing.
Imo if you have to use such methods you have lost control.

I want my dogs to respect me, not live in fear of me.

There is a big differance between a well trained dog and one that is afraid.
 Just find it very sad that there are people who still think its ok to do such things


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## Foxhunter49 (1 October 2011)

lula said:



			forgive me if im wrong  foxhunter but i get the impression you are from the 'old school'? and while no way am i condoning the beating of a dog i know the previous generations were tougher with their animals than we perhaps are today.
Generally, the foxhunter's posts ive read i thought made a lot of common sense
		
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Yes, I am of the 'old school' brought up tough and taught manners and respect. 
Thank you for recognising that I try and work using common sense! I deal with issues then and there, not waiting until 'your father comes home!'





EAST KENT said:



			It  makes perfect sense for that instance at the time and with that animal. And actually ,the reason we have such God awful kids around today is because a teacher can no longer impose any control. The world is harvesting it`s reward for going completely bonkers.
		
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I agree and I doubt it will turn around in my life time but sure as eggs are eggs, it will!

I do not advocate beating of any animal as part of training but there are circumstances when it is the only answer at that time.

Hannah, the GSD bitch was never afraid of me. She adored me to the point that when I was back home on holiday (I hadn't seen her for at least three years) she got a whiff of my scent from across the road and pulled my cousin  to the gate I had gone through walking my dogs. She was doing the GSD scream she was so excited and darn near had me off my feet with her greeting. Would she have done that if there was an iota of fear for me in her?
The last time I saw her she was suffering from advanced Degenerative Myelopathy and was so sad. I begged my cousin to have her PTS and when she said she couldn't I was the one who had her euthanised - the last person to be scratching her head as she went to sleep forever. Had she not been sorted out that would have happened many years earlier.


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## CorvusCorax (1 October 2011)

Re fear vs respect - I had this conversation with my mother a while ago - my older dog used to be very 'into' cats and sheep. He has nailed our cats on a number of occasions. 
As a result of that, the next time he looked at a cat, I was very hard on him. He now recalls from cats by voice, offlead.
I have told my mother to be very firm with him and she thinks she will a) hurt him or b) he will be scared.
a) She won't
b) He won't - and if he is? I would rather he was scared of me/my reaction than kill a cat. Sorry.

I do the vast, vast majority of my training in positive mode, I would not get anything out of my dogs otherwise, but with some things, I do not have time to mess about, if a dog of that size and strength decides he wants to nail a small furry, then I am going to go banzai. I realise that does not work with every dog (IE will associate prey animal with pain and will try to get in there first) it has worked for us.


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## EAST KENT (1 October 2011)

Dogs ..and children..actually love to know their boundaries ,very occasionally it needs to take a tough stance on a vital issue..not only does it work,but the dog adores you for it. 
    Just look at all these daft questions on this forum..horses "planting"..Napping to me..off they toddle to get it`s back and teeth checked,and then spend even more on a horse shrink..Laudy save me! It is being a git,get the battle over and sorted...NOW.
  The world is quite potty and filled with people without a clue on animal/child thinking,as a result there are revolting "why?/Shan`t" kids everywhere,bound for young offenders jails in the near future,dogs bound for Jesus,and horses either living as field ornaments or bound for a tin of Chum.  All because everyone is too pathetic to make ground rules and  mean it.


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## Onyxia (1 October 2011)

EAST KENT said:



			Dogs ..and children..actually love to know their boundaries ,very occasionally it needs to take a tough stance on a vital issue..not only does it work,but the dog adores you for it.
		
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On that we agree- but I have never met a situation that needed more then A smack.
If it does not work stright away,it will not work at all.

Foxhunter49,why would you want to brag about beating a dog?
Honestly,if someone posted the situation as you described it no-one would be thinking the handler did a good job........



EAST KENT said:



			The world is quite potty and filled with people without a clue on animal/child thinking,as a result there are revolting "why?/Shan`t" kids everywhere,bound for young offenders jails in the near future,dogs bound for Jesus,and horses either living as field ornaments or bound for a tin of Chum.  All because everyone is too pathetic to make ground rules and  mean it.

Click to expand...

Is it? Not seen more then the odd one or two of them around here, perhaps you should move


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## Pix (1 October 2011)

Yunalesca said:



			On that we agree- but I have never met a situation that needed more then A smack.
If it does not work stright away,it will not work at all.
		
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I'd agree with that. For me if a smack is needed it's delivered like any other type of correction. Short and swift (and usually accompanied by the "OMGyouhavenoideahowfaryouareoverthefrickenlinerightnow p***ed voice ). But then I'd be aiming for more of a short shock than pain. I suppose we all draw the line at a different point.





			Is it? Not seen more then the odd one or two of them around here, perhaps you should move 

Click to expand...

It's probably not reached us Yorkshire lot yet. Like indoor loos, caps that may not be flat, and supper options that don't include crumpets.


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## Foxhunter49 (1 October 2011)

Yunalesca said:



			On that we agree- but I have never met a situation that needed more then A smack.
If it does not work stright away,it will not work at all.

Foxhunter49,why would you want to brag about beating a dog?
Honestly,if someone posted the situation as you described it no-one would be thinking the handler did a good job........
		
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I was not bragging about beating a dog. I truthfully said that in _*extreme*_ circumstance _with certain situations_ it can be a last resort and work.

Majority of people do not come across extreme dogs and horses, some are made that way by mishandling and misunderstandings, some are born, not bad but exceedingly difficult and made worse by ignorance of the handler.
More and more people are wanting to take the softly, softly approach with excuse after excuse for misbehaviour, be it dog, horse or human, liking it to 'natural' training.
Sorry, but Mother Nature is not at all kind. If one dog, in a pack wants to take a higher position then it fights for it and fights to win. Ditto with horses and if any of you have ever seen or read 'Lord of the Flies' then it would make you think that children are much the same.

I can think of nothing I have done that was detrimental to any animal that I have had through my hands, as said many were supposedly beyond help yet, with the right handling they were turned around.  Majority of this was done with extreme patience, setting the animal up to realise that no matter what it did I would still remain calm, determined and when the tantrum or whatever was over we would continue to do as I wanted as if nothing had happened. 

Teaching/training anything is impossible unless the pupil wishes to learn and to please. This requires firm, fair leadership with fun thrown in. It also requires consistency which can be hard work and tedious at times but tight boundaries are widened and rules slightly relaxed as the training progresses. 

No doubt most of you would be against an electric collar, but surely t is better to use and e collar to stop a dog chasing sheep than to have a farmer put a bullet through it? 
Personally I am against e collars for anything but extreme circumstances and had they been around I would have used one on that particular dog because she was extreme. 

If most of you are against giving an animal a punishment that it will feel just tell me how you would have dealt with the situation - or a horse coming at you meaning to really do you harm? Do you think that a clicker or verbal commands are going to stop it?


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## Pix (1 October 2011)

I don't think anyone here is completely against punishment, and personally I think the division between 'positive' methods and 'basically everything else' is highly unhelpful to everyone; as most have already said, there is no such thing as "100% positive training" or that each dog and situation/problem requires the same approach. I'm pretty sure that, if all else failed, one thing you and I could agree on is that all the clickers and hotdog slices in the world won't help some dogs or be useful in certain situations; the number of reasons why are as wide and varied as the number of dogs and potential situations out there.

I think the main part of your post that some (including myself) took issue with was "deciding to give her six once she did feel it". As I said in an earlier post, we all draw the line in a different place, but for me, using pain itself as the training aid, and continuing once the dog has stopped the undesirable behaviour is a little distasteful. To put a slightly anthropomorphic slant on it, it's the difference between having the back of your legs slapped as a child, and being repeatedly struck. 

ETA - I once had to deal with a horse who had a particularly foul temperament. For reasons best known to the YO, the horror had to be mucked out while he was in his stable. Eventually everyone refused to go in there with him for any reason, never mind mucking out. He would stand calmly, watching you, and then a) launch at you, teeth bared b) swing his arse end at you and kick out or c) if he could, use his body weight to press you into the wall. When he launched himself at me I punched his nose, rather hard, in the same manner I'd seen the vet deal with him a few days before. Gave me time to sort his water out and hang his haynet while he sulked in the corner (poor beggar's eyes were probably watering, it's a sensitive place to meet a fist. On the other hand I'm pretty small, and if one strike keeps a 16:3hh heavy hunter off my back, that's what I'll do). On the one occasion that he had me pinned against the wall I brought my knee up into his ribs. It wasn't my proudest moment, but I'd rather he was short of breath for a few minutes that me getting my rib cage crushed. He didn't stop acting like the spawn of Satan after that, but I could work with him and he wouldn't try it on. So no, I'm not against punishment completely (or applying kneecaps in times of suffocation ). It's just repeated strikes for the purpose of causing pain as a lesson that I'm not sure I grasp.

I have no problem with e-collars when used by, or under the supervision of, somebody who understands how to use them correctly. I agree completely that it's by far the better option than a bullet to the brain


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## Sandstone1 (2 October 2011)

There is no excuse for beating a animal.
this "old school" method is ridiculous.
Im middle aged and was brought up to respect people and animals.
That does not mean beating them and bragging about it.

The excuse of people not coming across very aggressive animals so not having to use extreme methods is a joke.
Have you ever thought why you come across animals with these problems??
Do you think it may have something to do with the way you treat animals??

Violence breeds violence.

Im not some fluffy person who thinks animals should not know their place and behave themselves.
I have owned rescue dogs and large guarding breeds and have never had to beat a dog.

What you admitted to doing is also illegal.


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## Onyxia (2 October 2011)

Pix said:



			It's probably not reached us Yorkshire lot yet. Like indoor loos, caps that may not be flat, and supper options that don't include crumpets. 

Click to expand...

Hmm,perhaps you are onto something there 




Foxhunter49 said:



I was not bragging about beating a dog. I truthfully said that in _*extreme*_ circumstance _with certain situations_ it can be a last resort and work.   

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Ahh, so the end justifies the means does it? 
Good God 

In my book the way you posted would definatly come under bragging- there is NO remorse and you have decided anyone who does not praise you for your actions is not as experianced as you so is not fit to comment.....





Foxhunter49 said:



			Majority of people do not come across extreme dogs and horses, some are made that way by mishandling and misunderstandings, some are born, not bad but exceedingly difficult and made worse by ignorance of the handler.
		
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I would say beating "untill it felt it,then giving it six" for good measure would show an ignorant handler.
I _have_ had difficult dogs in the past who ALL neded time and education to get right. Along the way there was the odd time a smack was the best way to deal with a behaviour that was _dangerous_ to me,the dog or others but I use ONE smack.





Foxhunter49 said:



			More and more people are wanting to take the softly, softly approach with excuse after excuse for misbehaviour, be it dog, horse or human, liking it to 'natural' training.
		
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How have you come to this conclusion? Is it purely based on findings from the Daily Fail?






Foxhunter49 said:



			If most of you are against giving an animal a punishment that it will feel just tell me how you would have dealt with the situation - or a horse coming at you meaning to really do you harm? Do you think that a clicker or verbal commands are going to stop it?
		
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I am not ani punishment (as my sons lack of toy box this weekend would testify  ) but I AM anti abuse.
Hitting to get yourself out of imminant danger is a world away from beating a dog to make you feel better.
You describe a situation where you have the dog held up by the collar while you hit it down the ribs again and again.......and again.........and again untill a random stranger grabs your arm to stop you.
That is _NEVER_ going to be OK to me.


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## EAST KENT (2 October 2011)

:



Yunalesca said:



			Hmm,perhaps you are onto something there 



Ahh, so the end justifies the means does it? 
Good God 

In my book the way you posted would definatly come under bragging- there is NO remorse and you have decided anyone who does not praise you for your actions is not as experianced as you so is not fit to comment.....




I would say beating "untill it felt it,then giving it six" for good measure would show an ignorant handler.
I _have_ had difficult dogs in the past who ALL neded time and education to get right. Along the way there was the odd time a smack was the best way to deal with a behaviour that was _dangerous_ to me,the dog or others but I use ONE smack.




How have you come to this conclusion? Is it purely based on findings from the Daily Fail?





I am not ani punishment (as my sons lack of toy box this weekend would testify  ) but I AM anti abuse.
Hitting to get yourself out of imminant danger is a world away from beating a dog to make you feel better.
You describe a situation where you have the dog held up by the collar while you hit it down the ribs again and again.......and again.........and again untill a random stranger grabs your arm to stop you.
That is _NEVER_ going to be OK to me.
		
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 It sure made my chooks feel better ,as my dog never did it again.


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## EAST KENT (2 October 2011)

Is it? Not seen more then the odd one or two of them around here, perhaps you should move [/QUOTE]

 I know a perfectly normal woman,good lifestyle,kids got everything...EXCEPT discipline. Nor would she even do the "ignore,walk away" routine.As a result the kids threw strops,got attention and "their rights"..oh yes one of them said it would "call childline".
   And now? One is in jail,the other on probation,the father could`nt stand it and left home. All for the sake of not making boundaries and enforcing them.
   So that`s OK? So,in the same vein,it is not done to wallop a dog for a MAJOR misdemeanour..just click your clicker and stuff it with treats? You think Mummie dog does that? No,she rolls a pup over,stands over it making faces to the distance and then  stalks off. Animals speak their own language,we are bright  (most of us) enough to copy it.
   As an eight year old I had a rather vile pony mare charge me ,mouth wide open,in the field when I went to catch it..so I hit the bridge of her nose with the snaffle bridle,she never tried that again...is that wrong too?
  And lastly,my first beloved horse was ,although very kind,inclined to be a bit free with her heels as you worked around her.One day,very fed up ,I booted her back,just once.NEVER did it again to anyone. After that she was  my best friend for 19 years,total devotion between us and absolute harmony.
    Training needs both reward and encouragement,and sometimes correction as well.


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## Foxhunter49 (2 October 2011)

As a child my mother smacked my sister and I. If she smacked us then we were left with a hand mark on our backsides. I know because I remember looking at it in the mirror of my dressing table when I was about 5. Now, I cannot remember what I was smacked for but I know that I would have received a warning, a countdown before her hand landed.
When I was home for Christmas and I was about 22, my father came in from delivering presents to family and friends, the worse for drink. I remarked "It's Christmas, Dad's pissed." (Only time he ever got this way)
My Mother's automatic reaction was to grab my arm and slap me five times saying, with each slap, "You knoew I hate that word!"
I had, for a number of years been far bigger and stronger than Mum, but my automatic reaction was to cry. Absolutely no thought of retaliation or even pulling my arm away, she was in charge and that was accepted.
She did immediately apologise saying she had no right to do slap me as she had but it was automatic for her to correct hard and as automatic for me to cry. (She could still leave finger marks! LOL)

Smacking was accepted back then just as it is frowned upon now. Sure, there are better ways if only they were followed through by every parent.

The incident with Hannah happened well over 30 years ago, one smack did not break through her red zone and one that she did feel was not enough to snap her out of it. 

I did not loose my temper, if I had then she would have probably been punched in the head and certainly hurt far more than a soft leather lead did. 

As I have said previously Hannah would have come with me rather than go with my cousin. 

It is a matter of using common sense with teaching anything, sometimes reverse psychology has to be used. Generally tight boundaries and consistency are enough these as the rules are ingrained, can be slackened off and the animal allowed to think for itself and show its character, dog, human or horse.


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## Foxhunter49 (2 October 2011)

itsmylife said:



			The excuse of people not coming across very aggressive animals so not having to use extreme methods is a joke.
Have you ever thought why you come across animals with these problems??
Do you think it may have something to do with the way you treat animals??

The reason I come across very aggressive animals is because they are sent to me to see if I can turn them around. I have never - ever - raised an animal of my own that was this way. Nor have I ever had to hit them because the rules were there from the start. 

Violence breeds violence.
		
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Not necessarily so. Take the biggest bully who has been pushing a shoving people around using violence both mental and physical and give them a darn good punch on the nose and see how they think twice about bullying you or yours again.


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## Sandstone1 (2 October 2011)

Foxhunter49 said:



			As a child my mother smacked my sister and I. If she smacked us then we were left with a hand mark on our backsides. I know because I remember looking at it in the mirror of my dressing table when I was about 5. Now, I cannot remember what I was smacked for but I know that I would have received a warning, a countdown before her hand landed.
When I was home for Christmas and I was about 22, my father came in from delivering presents to family and friends, the worse for drink. I remarked "It's Christmas, Dad's pissed." (Only time he ever got this way)
My Mother's automatic reaction was to grab my arm and slap me five times saying, with each slap, "You knoew I hate that word!"
I had, for a number of years been far bigger and stronger than Mum, but my automatic reaction was to cry. Absolutely no thought of retaliation or even pulling my arm away, she was in charge and that was accepted.
She did immediately apologise saying she had no right to do slap me as she had but it was automatic for her to correct hard and as automatic for me to cry. (She could still leave finger marks! LOL)

Smacking was accepted back then just as it is frowned upon now. Sure, there are better ways if only they were followed through by every parent.

The incident with Hannah happened well over 30 years ago, one smack did not break through her red zone and one that she did feel was not enough to snap her out of it. 

I did not loose my temper, if I had then she would have probably been punched in the head and certainly hurt far more than a soft leather lead did. 

As I have said previously Hannah would have come with me rather than go with my cousin. 

It is a matter of using common sense with teaching anything, sometimes reverse psychology has to be used. Generally tight boundaries and consistency are enough these as the rules are ingrained, can be slackened off and the animal allowed to think for itself and show its character, dog, human or horse.
		
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This post explains a lot.
Violence does breed violence, you have just confirmed this.


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## EAST KENT (2 October 2011)

So,what would YOU do..buy the sod choccies to bribe him into keeping off your  back??


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## Sandstone1 (2 October 2011)

No choc is bad for dogs didnt you know?


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## EAST KENT (2 October 2011)

You evaded the question! Com`on?


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## Onyxia (2 October 2011)

Was a damn good evasion 
I would have thought the chickin chaser was one fo the few times when something like a ECT coller is likely to work- go near the birds and bad things happen.
That or better fences 

As I have said before violent acts to protect yourself or others in your care isnot the same a giving an animal a damn "good" wallop because you don't know any better way to deal with it.
I would also have given the pony a clout, had you done nothing it would have hurt you and the odds are it would have been bad.


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## CorvusCorax (2 October 2011)

TBH an e-collar should not be used as a punishment, that's where human temper creeps in and the tool is abused. E-collars should be used on a low setting as a remote 'hey - over here! I was talking to you!' to break the dog's fixation and get it's attention, the same way as you would tug somebody by the arm or click your fingers to get their attention. Ramping up the level and going BAD DOG - ZAP is just as bad as hitting a dog. THAT is why people want them banned.


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## Alec Swan (2 October 2011)

I continue to read this thread,  with genuine interest.

Alec.


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## Pix (2 October 2011)

Alec Swan said:



			I continue to read this thread,  with genuine interest.

Alec.
		
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Well now, that's just outright cheating. You have to put your 2p in too! 

Foxhunter - I'd be absolutely horrified if my Mum slapped me like that when I was a 22 year old adult! Particularly if the offence was unintentionally saying a word she didn't like. I'm not sure if I'd burst into laughter or just stare open mouthed. I did have my legs slapped when I was very little, if I really, really pushed things, but it wasn't an automatic response by any means. I cannot imagine what I'd have to do to to get a slap, even on the arm, as an adult. Equally, I cannot imagine striking my Mum, no matter how hurtful or nasty she can get. 

I'm all for discipline, but I think mutual respect has it's place too, particularly among adults. Did you not resent her reaction at all or feel that it was a bit over the top?


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## Foxhunter49 (2 October 2011)

All of you have every right to your opinion but not one of you have said what *you* would have done to stop this dog from fighting. 
Would you have forced her to always wear a muzzle when out? Always kept her on a leash?

My cousin had been through nearly three years of trainers working with her and the dog and non had been able to stop her from attacking another dog if she saw one.

It was a case of offering her to the RAF and the ex RAF dog handler who had been working with her was doubtful they would take her, or being PTS.

I would like to know just how you would have dealt with the situation.


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## Pix (2 October 2011)

Foxhunter49 said:



			All of you have every right to your opinion but not one of you have said what *you* would have done to stop this dog from fighting. 
Would you have forced her to always wear a muzzle when out? Always kept her on a leash?

My cousin had been through nearly three years of trainers working with her and the dog and non had been able to stop her from attacking another dog if she saw one.

It was a case of offering her to the RAF and the ex RAF dog handler who had been working with her was doubtful they would take her, or being PTS.

I would like to know just how you would have dealt with the situation.
		
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To be fair, it's hard for somebody to say how they'd approach the problem without knowing the dog. This doesn't mean that everyone would do the same as you though. "I'm not sure" isn't the same as "I'd instinctively do the same".  If I'm honest I probably wouldn't have had her off the lead somewhere exciting where other dogs were playing, even if she was fine at home. From the little you say of her reaction to Gen on the beach I'd have snapped the lead back on and marched her off. That would end the situation and given me time to formulate a "plan of attack" based on what I'd seen. Whether that plan was based around clickers and poisonous chocolate treats or corrections based of course depends on the dog  I can honestly say giving her ribs six of the best with the lead wouldn't occur to me. Some people think it's OK, others don't, for me it's not on my radar and I find it a little shocking.


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## EAST KENT (3 October 2011)

Foxhunter49 said:



			All of you have every right to your opinion but not one of you have said what *you* would have done to stop this dog from fighting. 
Would you have forced her to always wear a muzzle when out? Always kept her on a leash?

My cousin had been through nearly three years of trainers working with her and the dog and non had been able to stop her from attacking another dog if she saw one.

It was a case of offering her to the RAF and the ex RAF dog handler who had been working with her was doubtful they would take her, or being PTS.

I would like to know just how you would have dealt with the situation.
		
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 As it worked then I would hope to have the sense to do as you did! As for my collie,the chooks were free range,I expect any of my dogs to know better ,and an E collar was`nt available back then.Moss would sneak off to do her deed,but that time she was caught paws down.Anyway it worked;it is exactly the same methods used  with pack hounds too,as even now I doubt they`d invest in an e collar and remote. Point is ,pack hounds that kill chooks/pheasants/deer or sheep get lead poisoning if it cannot be cured of them by traditional methods.


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## Alec Swan (3 October 2011)

Right,  well I'm probably going to be shot at,  but it wont be for the first time!! 

Dogs,  to me are my servants.  Within that they are also my near constant companions.  I take my responsibilities seriously,  but dogs are not my friends.  I reserve that for the two legged variety.

For any owner/handler,  the dog must respect his senior.  Respect is made up,  in part,  of fear.  Fear of causing offence,  or being spoken to harshly.  How we achieve that necessary level of respect,  is a good question.

I no longer take in other peoples cast offs,  or **** ups.  I accept that others do,  and for all the right reasons,  but I truly believe,  that once a dog has learnt antisocial,  or unacceptable behaviour,  then what ever the degree of success,  of the trainer,  rather as an addict,  the dog will all so often slip back,  into his old ways,  given anything but positive handling.  Better,  I think to stop the dog from going wrong in the first place.

Violence?  That's a difficult one.  I have previously dished out some serious hidings,  and the need was all so often because I wasn't looking at the dog,  I'd allowed him to be away from the corner of my eye.  I also think that there are those dogs which,  when they are driven by their own rage,  then violence can all so often encourage further impulsion.  At that stage,  they can then become a danger to the handler.

I've watched others,  Windmill, or Helicopter a dog.  I find it distasteful,  but once had a very difficult dog,  who to preempt an attack upon me,  I pulled over a gate until he was unconscious.  When he came-to he was subdued,  but learnt little from it.  His owner then told me that the dog had been to two others,  who'd sent him back as unmanageable.  By agreement,  I put him down.

All so many of the known aggressive breeds,  are bred by idiots,  and sold on to clowns. 

For permanent correction,  violence serves little purpose.  For breaking into a young dogs mind,  one that wont listen,  then there may be room for _"the adjusting of breaks"_,  but once entrenched behaviour is viewed,  it takes someone special _(not me!)_,  to sort them out.

As another pointed out,  for the truly wooden headed youngsters,  I would treat them as their mother would;  over power them,  pin them to the ground,  and stick nine yards of "EFFS" into them.  

Just my thoughts!! 

Alec.


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## Spudlet (3 October 2011)

Fortunately, it is now widely recognised that there are now better ways to train a dog, and these methods are becoming more widely disseminated. This includes remedial work with 'problem' dogs. Sadly there is still a huge amount of ignorance in the dog world about how dogs learn and how their minds work, as evidenced here.

I have to admit, this thread is the closest I have come to deactivating my account as I do not wish to be associated with some of the views on this thread in any way at all. Violence against animals is deplorable. And there are certainly people on here who I would never allow within a mile of any animal of mine.


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## Dobiegirl (3 October 2011)

Alec Swan said:



			Right,  well I'm probably going to be shot at,  but it wont be for the first time!! 

Dogs,  to me are my servants.  Within that they are also my near constant companions.  I take my responsibilities seriously,  but dogs are not my friends.  I reserve that for the two legged variety.

For any owner/handler,  the dog must respect his senior.  Respect is made up,  in part,  of fear.  Fear of causing offence,  or being spoken to harshly.  How we achieve that necessary level of respect,  is a good question.

I no longer take in other peoples cast offs,  or **** ups.  I accept that others do,  and for all the right reasons,  but I truly believe,  that once a dog has learnt antisocial,  or unacceptable behaviour,  then what ever the degree of success,  of the trainer,  rather as an addict,  the dog will all so often slip back,  into his old ways,  given anything but positive handling.  Better,  I think to stop the dog from going wrong in the first place.

Violence?  That's a difficult one.  I have previously dished out some serious hidings,  and the need was all so often because I wasn't looking at the dog,  I'd allowed him to be away from the corner of my eye.  I also think that there are those dogs which,  when they are driven by their own rage,  then violence can all so often encourage further impulsion.  At that stage,  they can then become a danger to the handler.

I've watched others,  Windmill, or Helicopter a dog.  I find it distasteful,  but once had a very difficult dog,  who to preempt an attack upon me,  I pulled over a gate until he was unconscious.  When he came-to he was subdued,  but learnt little from it.  His owner then told me that the dog had been to two others,  who'd sent him back as unmanageable.  By agreement,  I put him down.

All so many of the known aggressive breeds,  are bred by idiots,  and sold on to clowns. 

For permanent correction,  violence serves little purpose.  For breaking into a young dogs mind,  one that wont listen,  then there may be room for _"the adjusting of breaks"_,  but once entrenched behaviour is viewed,  it takes someone special _(not me!)_,  to sort them out.

As another pointed out,  for the truly wooden headed youngsters,  I would treat them as their mother would;  over power them,  pin them to the ground,  and stick nine yards of "EFFS" into them.  

Just my thoughts!! 

Alec.
		
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Once you are using fear as part of your training you have failed, Im not against punishing a dog but I would be broken hearted if I thought my dogs feared me.

Dogs can be turned around as anyone who saw the Yesterday programme about Dogs of war in the Pacific can testify, after the war these dogs were put into intensive training and only about 5 failed to make it back to Civvy Street, a lot of these went back to families with small children without incident.

Im an older lady and probabley brought up old school but as a child being sent to my bedroom without supper was the worse punishment ever.

I think and Im not aiming this at anyone in particular there are some really good dog trainers out there who dont knock 7 tons of s**t  out of dogs and its up to us as responsible dog owners to try some of these methods. As I stated elsewhere its sensible to have more than one tool in your tool-box.


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## CorvusCorax (3 October 2011)

Alec (not knocking, just interested ), an interesting post, but may I ask, I have seen you and others dismiss e-collars and pinch collars as cruel training aids in the past - how does giving a dog a hiding or depriving oxygen to the extent where it passes out (which as I am sure you will agree is a last resort when an extremely dominant or aggressive dog is intent on doing serious harm to a human or another dog - when the only other option is shooting it) compare to a tickle or a pop high up on the throat?


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## Alec Swan (3 October 2011)

Alec Swan said:



			........  the dog must respect his senior.  Respect is made up,  *in part*,  of fear.  Fear of causing offence,  or being spoken to harshly.  How we achieve that necessary level of respect,  is a good question.

.......
		
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So how do we arrive at the happy state where a dog respects his owner/handler?  I've had some gundog,  some GSDs and some collie pups,  who were born with a will to listen.  I've also had those who weren't!!

For those that aren't,  they go through a process,  where they *will* listen to me,  and when they do,  then the breaks are relaxed,  they learn that I *will* be listened to,  obeyed,  and then we generally get on.  It's a simple learning process.

Violence towards a dog,  properly used,  does have a place,  but when it becomes the only form of,  or a constant form of control,  it then becomes a complete waist of time.  That's what I think.

Dunno!! 

Alec.


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## Luci07 (3 October 2011)

Food for thought. I do have 3 high energy dogs. I don't have them perfectly trained (IMO a properly trained dog should be able to walk off lead and LEAVE other dogs/people alone when requested). Second dog will mug total strangers believing that all will love him but not everyone feels the way I do about small red staffie boys.

Just makes me very glad that, in the real light of day, my dogs are not actually very tricky. Just stick to the golden rule of owning a stafford. A tired stafford is a well behaved staffie!


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## Alec Swan (3 October 2011)

CaveCanem said:



			Alec (not knocking, just interested ), an interesting post, but may I ask, I have seen you and others dismiss e-collars and pinch collars as cruel training aids in the past - how does giving a dog a hiding or depriving oxygen to the extent where it passes out (which as I am sure you will agree is a last resort when an extremely dominant or aggressive dog is intent on doing serious harm to a human or another dog - when the only other option is shooting it) compare to a tickle or a pop high up on the throat?
		
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C_C,  knock away,  I'm here to be told,  no matter how dogmatic my views! 

My views on E-collars,  spiked collars,  halties and any aid,  in general,  is that they are a poor man's system towards getting a dog to *listen.*  Others will disagree with me.  I remember,  a year or so back when I had a very modest rant about leads.  My argument was (and still is),  that dogs should learn to walk to heal  *off* the lead,  and *before* it goes on to the lead,  and strangely,  there were those who agreed that it was their experience,  too!  The point is,  that dogs learn,  when restricted by a lead, exactly where their handler is.  Take the lead off,  and the dog has to consider his handler,  and importantly,  his positioning. 

It's all to do with the relationship which I have with a dog.  I want to be able to stop a dog at 500m,  without resorting to "aids" (I hate them,  so do the dogs,  mostly!).  Life without aids,  at the start of a puppy's life,  makes subsequent progress so much easier,  I feel.

What I call "Hand training",  in a yard,  the house,  any confined space will do,  is the start,  and from there,  it's extended.  

Somewhere between four and seven months,  I want a dog to focus on me,  not exclusively,  but when I speak,  then he listens.  From there we will make progress.  

All the half-jobs,  which I've ever made with a dog,  have always been because of the previous cock-ups of others.  Today I rear and bring up my dogs,  as puppies.  I would always advise that the difficult or dangerous,  having reached the age of perhaps two years,  be sent to heaven.  Not always,  but so often,  it's the kinder route,  for man and dog.

Alec.


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## lexiedhb (3 October 2011)

I agree with some parts of what you have said Alec, (violence towards any animal IMO is only if they themselves are in danger or are about to damage someone else) but its very easy to make these sweeping statements when you have given up on those more difficult dogs and now only raise pups from birth- far easier to start with a blank canvas tha have to try and paint over someones elses painting.


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## Spudlet (3 October 2011)

If your advice had been followed, my dog would be dead, rather than having been an utter star this weekend. 

Excellent behaviour, achieved without violence, beating etc, and reinforced this weekend with verbal praise alone. Not rocket science. Just perseverance, consistency and kindness - a highly underrated training aid.


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## EAST KENT (3 October 2011)

Yesterday  one of the Welfare bullies was returned. I had spent many months stabilising a hyper,clothe headed dog,not even lead trained,into a dog ,who although keen and sharp,was "amenable to discipline",as bull terriers need to be.This was done by feeding proper BARF entirely,and training with check chain ,training lead with reward once she started to listen a bit,think it is now called "checking in".
   The new owner claimed he would follow all my guide lines,yeah..right. Hetti returned hyper out of her head,thin and bloodied. It turned out he had fed her BAKERS,as "it is so difficult to get chicken wings".
    To my credit,I did not call him what I so wanted to,but did say that the dreadful food was part of her problem undoubtedly. It is now obvious too,that she has been walloped severely..she hit the deck when I examined her for parasites.OK,so it is start again time,but are`nt people the pits
  I like this dog,she is very intelligent ,quick witted and so hope the right home turns up,or it will be yet another misfit who lives here!


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## Foxhunter49 (3 October 2011)

Alec Swan said:



			listen.[/B]  Others will disagree with me.  I remember,  a year or so back when I had a very modest rant about leads.  My argument was (and still is),  that dogs should learn to walk to heal  *off* the lead,  and *before* it goes on to the lead,  and strangely,  there were those who agreed that it was their experience,  too!  The point is,  that dogs learn,  when restricted by a lead, exactly where their handler is.  Take the lead off,  and the dog has to consider his handler,  and importantly,  his positioning. 

It's all to do with the relationship which I have with a dog.  I want to be able to stop a dog at 500m,  without resorting to "aids" (I hate them,  so do the dogs,  mostly!).  Life without aids,  at the start of a puppy's life,  makes subsequent progress so much easier,  I feel.

What I call "Hand training",  in a yard,  the house,  any confined space will do,  is the start,  and from there,  it's extended.  

Somewhere between four and seven months,  I want a dog to focus on me,  not exclusively,  but when I speak,  then he listens.  From there we will make progress.  

Alec.
		
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Alec, you put it far more succinctly than ever I could. I too prefer to train a dog to heel off a lead rather than on one. 
The only time I have ever used an e-collar was for a dog that persistently chased sheep and I didn't have a nasty enough ram or ewe with lambs to let him learn the really hard way. I also agree about your definition of respect.


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## blackcob (3 October 2011)

Rather like the last thread on this subject, Alec seems to be coming from a highly idealised situation with young pups of biddable breeding, where fair and effective training will reap rewards very quickly.

Once again I invite him to take on an adolescent dog of a breed purposely designed to ignore the handler, for whom every breed society in the world states that the dog must not be allowed off a lead, who has received no socialisation or adequate exercise up until the point that it comes into your care, and see what he can do with that. 

Tongue firmly in cheek, of course, but (disgustingly smugly, I admit ) I consider mine the bigger victory.


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## EAST KENT (3 October 2011)

Alec, I would just love you to try a bull terrier !! Book your place in the Priory first though.


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## Alec Swan (3 October 2011)

blackcob said:



			Rather like the last thread on this subject, Alec seems to be coming from a highly idealised situation with young pups of biddable breeding, where fair and effective training will reap rewards very quickly.  *I'll accept this,  but only in part.  Read on...!*

Once again I invite him to take on an adolescent dog of a breed purposely designed to ignore the handler, for whom every breed society in the world states that the dog must not be allowed off a lead, who has received no socialisation or adequate exercise up until the point that it comes into your care, and see what he can do with that.  *Now here I could become cross,  sort of!!  Why would anyone,  in their right minds,  want a dog which was DESIGNED to ignore his owners demands,  when he was bred for another purpose?*

Tongue firmly in cheek, of course, but (disgustingly smugly, I admit ) I consider mine the bigger victory. *I'll accept that your dog is,  perhaps the most handsome of creatures,  but they are NOT domestic pets,  or certainly weren't bred to be,  so you take them on,  at your peril.*

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You wont agree with me,  I realise that ,  but the difficult,  or specialised breeds,  were bred for a purpose.  Being "PETS",  wasn't one of them!!  

Alec.

BC.  The judgements are also a bit TIC,  but take with the specialist dog,  and you will be taking a dog away from its intended purpose.  Wolves don't make for the ideal pets,  and they aren't alone.  Handsome is,  as handsome does!!  a.


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## Alec Swan (3 October 2011)

EAST KENT said:




    Alec, I would just love you to try a bull terrier !! Book your place in the Priory first though.

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NOT A CHANCE!!  

EBTs are neither thick,  nor stupid,  but they are awesomely stubborn.  I was brought up with one,  she was called Penny,  and Jesus,  she was hard work.  She was the only dog which grunted!!   How I loved her,  as a small boy.

Alec.

Ets,  I've just remembered,  we once had such a creature come in.  He went through a baiting suit,  in seconds.  He made the "Runner" squawk a bit,  and was quite impossible!! Out of work,  he was a pussy cat,  and a nightmare!! Never again!! a.


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## blackcob (3 October 2011)

On the contrary, I agree with you entirely! 

I wouldn't ever wish to see a Siberian husky in a purely 'pet' home - even if that does make me a hypocrite as most would consider mine to be household pets, though I do my best to work them when I can. The breed rescue is full to bursting with the results of people who cannot be bothered to make even the most token effort towards fulfilling their specialist needs. 

I think the point I was trying to make is that a lot of people on here do not have the advantage of having a dog from puppyhood and are often trying to erase a lifetime of mistakes; to state that the dog must go off the lead (and how often have I heard that from local gundog bods, mocking me for my admittedly rather goofy looking lead set-ups, "let 'em off, how can you trust them if you don't give them the chance?") and immediately do X or Y at the snapping of one's fingers is unrealistic and, I feel, rather undermining the efforts of people like Lexie who are doing a bloody hard job and succeeding without the need to beat a dog senseless and without the advantage of having a completely blank cavas of a pup. 

I am a bit mad though, I wouldn't know what to do with a dog that sat at my feet and waited for my every direction. I expect I'd get very bored.  Horses for courses. I'll be laughing when we're plunged into an ice age...


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## EAST KENT (4 October 2011)

Alec Swan said:



			NOT A CHANCE!!  

EBTs are neither thick,  nor stupid,  but they are awesomely stubborn.  I was brought up with one,  she was called Penny,  and Jesus,  she was hard work.  She was the only dog which grunted!!   How I loved her,  as a small boy.

Alec.

Ets,  I've just remembered,  we once had such a creature come in.  He went through a baiting suit,  in seconds.  He made the "Runner" squawk a bit,  and was quite impossible!! Out of work,  he was a pussy cat,  and a nightmare!! Never again!! a.
		
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You used a bull terrier on a runner?? Bloody Hell,they are a tad hard(read impossible) to detach once they get into enjoying a bit of violence. As for the "grunting"..that is what we fans call "talking" and in our besotted little brains find it endearing. They are ,however,great companions and partners in crime for children,up for adventures(as long as it is`nt raining) and simply adore being dressed up or having nail varnish applied to toenails.Recall is almost non existant..unless a sweet wrapper is heard at a hundred paces..then it is ace. I like the one eye open..possibly  a tail thump,nothing more ,as a greeting in the morning;how they love to be wrapped up in a blanket at night,and don`t move so as to keep warm until morning. Pigs do that too,I learnt that a stack of straw on a pig made it stay still and sleep,so as to creat a warm fug..funny that,the physical and mental resemblance is quite astonishing!


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## lexiedhb (4 October 2011)

EAST KENT said:



			I like the one eye open..possibly  a tail thump,nothing more ,as a greeting in the morning;
		
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So its not just Dex then!!??


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## Alec Swan (4 October 2011)

blackcob said:



			.......I wouldn't ever wish to see a Siberian husky in a purely 'pet' home - even if that does make me a hypocrite as most would consider mine to be household pets, though I do my best to work them when I can. The breed rescue is full to bursting with the results of people who cannot be bothered to make even the most token effort towards fulfilling their specialist needs. *You've effectively made my point!!   Whilst this DOESN'T apply to you,  my main argument is with those who breed,  dish out spurious advice,  sell on their puppies to the village idiot,  and then as you so rightly say,  the innocent dog,  ends up at a rescue centre,  often devoid of any input,  and by the time that it's all gone wrong,  only the seriously able,  will have any influence over a fruit cake.  There are those breeds which haven't been bred as household pets.*

.......I'll be laughing when we're plunged into an ice age...  *If that day ever arrives,  we'll be eating them!! *

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Alec.


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## Dobiegirl (4 October 2011)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RFCGtatpCwI&feature=related

I have just been sent this link by my dog trainer, I have watched it and I dont think you could actualy describe it as a kick but a nudge to redirect the dogs attention. It has obviously been well edited but from what is shown , I would describe it as a nudge.

I do not like his treatment of the Husky type dog and it just goes to show one method dosnt work for every dog.

My dog trainer is very anti CM and this link was sent to all his clients.


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## CorvusCorax (4 October 2011)

I got angrily wuffed at for using my foot to guide the pup out of a sit the other day. I shall not be using that method as a correction


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## blackcob (4 October 2011)

I don't see anything in that video that I necessarily disagree with. I 'nudged' Dax just this morning - she was fannying about in a gateway sniffing where another dog had been. The resident shetland ponies, sensing an escape opportunity, were making a beeline for us. I feel quite justified in pushing her out of the bloody way with my foot in order to shut the gate. 

Worlds away from holding a dog down and beating them. 

Incidentally the one and only time I've seen my OH use his foot in that way she whirled around and gave him a warning air-snap; works for me, utterly stupid of him to try it.


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## Spudlet (4 October 2011)

CaveCanem said:



			I got angrily wuffed at for using my foot to guide the pup out of a sit the other day. I shall not be using that method as a correction 

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Now you see, what you should do is to pick him up and beat the hell out of him when he does that... Ya gurt wuss

I've scooched Henry with my foot when required: it's not training though, it's scooching him out of the way because he's sniffing at something where I wish to walk.


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## CorvusCorax (4 October 2011)

Oh by the way BC, the tampon is dead  well, the ball half is anyway and he was making a good attempt on the stuffed end, shame to waste a nice toy like that on the little thug


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## lexiedhb (4 October 2011)

I can nudge Dex with my foot until the cows come home hes seen another dog I imagine I could actually full on kick him and he would pay no attention- squeaky kong bone on the other hand- that at least gets a head nod in my general direction.......


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## EAST KENT (5 October 2011)

Mmm, I do find a low growly very firm  "don`t you f......even think about it"!! works rather well needs to be said before the tension level rises..that is on first focus.


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