# Windsucking Surgery - Modified Forsell's Procedure



## pollypock1211 (13 September 2011)

Anyone heard of or had any experience of this crib-biting surgery. There is very little information on the internet and doesnt seem common knowledge - it is something i am thinking of discussing with my vet and seriously 

I have literally tried everything with my horse who has cribbed since weaning from his mother (he is now 9)!! He is in regular, constant work, he has high fibre low starch diet. He is turned out 12 hours daily and stabled at night with constant supply of hay, toys and a mirror etc in his stable. 

He only seems to do it when he has finished eating or given a treat but he does it for quite a lengthy time after. I have also caught him a couple of odd times on the post in his field which holds the electric fencing up. His front teeth are getting worse and the muscles on the underside of his neck are huge! and are really concerning me. 

Any info greatly appreciated. Thanks


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## Amymay (13 September 2011)

How does it work?  My understanding of Cribbing is that it a bit like us and nicotine - it releases endorphines, and relieves stress - so as well as a chemical experience it's also psycological..


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## PooJay (13 September 2011)

and also the act of cribbing can create saliva which helps neutralise stomach acid. 

Have you tried a coligone/settlex type supplement? I've never heard of this op, but i'm guessing you won't ever stop the action as it's a learned behaviour.


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## Amymay (13 September 2011)

PooJay said:



			....... but i'm guessing you won't ever stop the action as it's a learned behaviour. 

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This is what I would have thought too.


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## pollypock1211 (13 September 2011)

I only came across it by accident whilst looking for something else on google but this is all i can find. 

'''''''''''''The modified Forssell's procedure is a surgical procedure that entails cutting some of the muscles and nerves in the ventral neck region as well as the removal of some muscle tissue. This makes it far more difficult for a horse to contract his larynx and crib, and whereas it sounds drastic it's actually a rather safe procedure that rarely creates any cosmetic problems. 

A horse undergoing this procedure may need to be hospitalized for up to four days, and so far the success rates for this procedure are promising: 60% of the patients are cured completely while 25% are not cured but are helped significantly'''''''''''

Maybe its out dated, or not sure if its an American site :/


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## pollypock1211 (13 September 2011)

PooJay said:



			and also the act of cribbing can create saliva which helps neutralise stomach acid. 

Have you tried a coligone/settlex type supplement? I've never heard of this op, but i'm guessing you won't ever stop the action as it's a learned behaviour. 

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I have tried everything , coligone, settlex, ulcer calm, gut calmer, ive had cribbox and cribstop which needs apply everyday! also tried the collars including the mircle collar which I dont particulary like. Before i bought him he had one on costantly for four years which has left a mark on his neck so therefore the collars a big no no. Not sure what else i can do.


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## Amymay (13 September 2011)

Not sure what else i can do.
		
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Just let him quietly get on with it, and ensure he has regular dental care?


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## PooJay (13 September 2011)

pollypock1211 said:



			I have tried everything , coligone, settlex, ulcer calm, gut calmer, ive had cribbox and cribstop which needs apply everyday! also tried the collars including the mircle collar which I dont particulary like. Before i bought him he had one on costantly for four years which has left a mark on his neck so therefore the collars a big no no. Not sure what else i can do.  

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I know the feeling, i had a mare like that too and there was no stopping her. I tried everything too! I was at my first yard and the evil yard owner would tighten her collar when i left at night so much she couldn't lift her head off the floor to keep breathing  i had to get the vet out to tell him he was causing damage (and probably crushing her windpipe)  evil man! 

Anyway, nothing i did ever stopped her....she had to be in the field seperately and the y/o put a post in the ground for her to crib on as she was electric fenced in....one night she broke the pole (probably by scratching her @rse on it) and was colicing horribly the next morning because she couldn't crib anywhere. 

Sorry, can't help with the op - can see that it would help probably but it sounds like quite invasive surgery and possibly painful recouperation whilst he healed and tried to crib.....personally, i wouldn't put a horse through it but I know how you feel, you'd try anything


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## pollypock1211 (13 September 2011)

amymay said:



			Just let him quietly get on with it, and ensure he has regular dental care?
		
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Yes he has 6 monthly routine dental care - and his dentist says his teeth are nothing compared to some cribbers. It the underside of his neck i am worried about - it maybe me being parnoid but it is rock soild muscle and almost looks abnormal. In the last two years and he has had 3 colic episodes (vet saying as a result of windsucking) and having lost my last horse already to colic this is probably whats most worrying. 

Do you think it is safe for him to carry on doing it?? what are the health implecations to wnidsuckers?? especially with winter coming shortly which means more stabling and less grazing :/


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## Amymay (13 September 2011)

Do you think it is safe for him to carry on doing it?? what are the health implecations to wnidsuckers?? especially with winter coming shortly which means more stabling and less grazing :/
		
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I can't answer that - but management is key.  And if you can, I'd be looking to have him out 24/7 if at all possible.


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## PooJay (13 September 2011)

pollypock1211 said:



			Yes he has 6 monthly routine dental care - and his dentist says his teeth are nothing compared to some cribbers. It the underside of his neck i am worried about - it maybe me being parnoid but it is rock soild muscle and almost looks abnormal. In the last two years and he has had 3 colic episodes (vet saying as a result of windsucking) and having lost my last horse already to colic this is probably whats most worrying. 

Do you think it is safe for him to carry on doing it?? what are the health implecations to wnidsuckers?? especially with winter coming shortly which means more stabling and less grazing :/
		
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I think the best thing you can do is let him be, provide him with somewhere soft to crib on (rubber matting on the stable door for example) so he doesn't wear  his teeth out prematurely. Colic is inevitable i'm afraid, they take air into the stomach and then can't trump it out so try and keep to a strict routine and monitor when he cribs more perhaps? I dont know whether this actually helps or not but I think riding helped, she had quite a wet mouth anyway so creating more saliva through schooling was a different tactic that might work? 

I also had a little bit of success with Trinity consultants Ulcer mixture, i don't know if he makes it to the same recipe or not but that defo reduced the amount she cribbed. 

I've also heard feeding aloe vera can help, you can get gels etc to add to feed. I never tried it myself but someone recommended it - i think the ulcer mixture had an element of it in there...


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## Luci07 (13 September 2011)

I can't really agree with that. I have seen quite a few cribbers ending up with colic (and needing surgery in 2 instances) so would not be inclined to go down the route of letting them get on with and having colic as an inevitable option. Having had one horse who had a surgical colic (nothing to do with cribbing) I never ever want to see that or go down that route again.

The day they definately find out what causes windsucking/cribbing will be marvellous. Unfortunately there seems to many reasons WHY a horse would start.

I did have a cribber. I went through all that you did and ended up putting him in a miracle collar at night - the difference was that I bought the sheepskin girth sleeves and basically had all of the collar covered in sheepskin. Result - no marking or strangulation but did stop the cribbing. I did have him out as much as possible which seemed to help and ended up having him live out, which cut it down but he would still do it from time to time. He always had access to hay, never without (again helped) and at one point I stuck him on good straw bedding - again helped but not stopped. No sugary foods, low starch and various supplements..

In his case he was a good doer, rather a stresshead and not overly bright. I felt I had ruled out (as much as was possible) any physical reasons for him cribbing so felt a lot was habit. 

Also, while there really is no proof that one cribber will encourage the same behaviour in another horse, clearly other liveries are not keen (just in case) on being stabled next to a horse that does it.

So, for mine, a  miracle collar worked. However I fully appreciate that I never REALLY got to the bottom of what was causing the issue in the first place, purely masking the symptoms. I also built my horse up to wearing it for periods of time before he went in it overnight - if it was a habit I didn't think it would reduce his stressiness by suddenly going cold turkey. Also meant we could keep a close eye on the collar and how effective it was to begin with.


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## PooJay (13 September 2011)

Luci07 said:



			I can't really agree with that. I have seen quite a few cribbers ending up with colic (and needing surgery in 2 instances) so would not be inclined to go down the route of letting them get on with and having colic as an inevitable option. Having had one horse who had a surgical colic (nothing to do with cribbing) I never ever want to see that or go down that route again.

The day they definately find out what causes windsucking/cribbing will be marvellous. Unfortunately there seems to many reasons WHY a horse would start.

I did have a cribber. I went through all that you did and ended up putting him in a miracle collar at night - the difference was that I bought the sheepskin girth sleeves and basically had all of the collar covered in sheepskin. Result - no marking or strangulation but did stop the cribbing. I did have him out as much as possible which seemed to help and ended up having him live out, which cut it down but he would still do it from time to time. He always had access to hay, never without (again helped) and at one point I stuck him on good straw bedding - again helped but not stopped. No sugary foods, low starch and various supplements..

In his case he was a good doer, rather a stresshead and not overly bright. I felt I had ruled out (as much as was possible) any physical reasons for him cribbing so felt a lot was habit. 

Also, while there really is no proof that one cribber will encourage the same behaviour in another horse, clearly other liveries are not keen (just in case) on being stabled next to a horse that does it.

So, for mine, a  miracle collar worked. However I fully appreciate that I never REALLY got to the bottom of what was causing the issue in the first place, purely masking the symptoms. I also built my horse up to wearing it for periods of time before he went in it overnight - if it was a habit I didn't think it would reduce his stressiness by suddenly going cold turkey. Also meant we could keep a close eye on the collar and how effective it was to begin with.
		
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equally, stopping the cribbing might have a detrimental effect. It did massively for my horse, worst colic episode she'd ever had was the colic she had when she couldn't crib because she broke her cribbing post. 

The OP has already tried collars and everything else. What else would you suggest she does? Bearing in mind he's done it since he was a foal  i'm under the impression that you can't find out why a horse cribs unless it's actually got ulcers.


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## Amymay (13 September 2011)

I have seen quite a few cribbers ending up with colic
		
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And interestingly, I've never seen one.

Not to deter from how distressing it can be for the owners when obviously their cribber is prone to colic.

Difficult to manage most often.


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## Britestar (13 September 2011)

We had a horse who had had this surgery before we got him. He was about 7 when he arrived here, and the previous loaner ( he was a rescue charity horse) had saved up to get this done, as he was colicing on a regular basis.

It didn't stop him cribbing, and he just adapted his method of cribbing. It did stop him swallowing so much air and in the 10 yrs we had him he only had 'trapped wind' colic on 3 occasions. Once whilst out hacking, and he lay down in the road - not handy with a 16.2hh ID x! and twice after coming in from the field. All three occasions it took more than 4/5 hrs for the trapped wind to pass.

After the last occasion, we gave him homeopathic granules meant for babies with colic, and he never had another (coincidence or granules I can't be sure).

When I say he adapted his style, he would pull back on whatever he was cribbing on and gulp his air that way. This meant he broke every bolt on his door, and we ended up with a strange arrangement to keep his door closed. Many of our field fence post still lean at an odd angle and every strainer has a dent on the top! (He worked out how to crib on these even though the fence was electric!)

This guy was totally addicted, and we never tried to stop him. He was well fed and not in the least bit stressed. I think if he'd been in 100 acre field with grass just in the middle, he still would have stood by the fence and cribbed. He would crib on cars, peoples heads....get the picture!

He had no top inscisors at all, just a hard pad like a sheep, but managed eating just fine, he was better in a field with longer grass obviously, as he ate rather like a cow, pulling the grass up with his bottom teeth.

A side effect of the op, was he became a roarer. There can be nerve damage when they cut the muscles, and sadly this was the undoing of him. By 17yrs old he was severely comprimised with his breathing, and we chose to send him for a tieback/hobday. It was do this or PTS as he was never going to be happy as a field ornament. Sadly there were problems during his recovery and we lost him.

I wouldn't have any worries about having a cribber again, you just learn to live with it.

Sorry for the essay!


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## jenz87 (13 September 2011)

My mare is a windsucker/cribber shes had a very bad past and so i dont blame her!!!
She tends to do it mostly after food / treats and the odd one in field or when stabled every now and again.
I leave her to it, ive even given her a plank of wood to do it on in stable under dentists directions as her teeth are suffering from doing it on metal door. 
To be honest, my mare is fine, her teeth are a bit odd but regular dentist visits sort that.

Personally, if the horse is healthy id never put them through such  dangerous surgery, but thats just me. I dont feed ulcer supplements either, shes healthy, happy and so why worry


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## mytwofriends (13 September 2011)

My boy cribs during and after eating. Like another poster mentioned, his top teeth are worn to nothing, yet he is perfectly able to graze. His habit stemmed (I assume) from a very abusive past, but I am aware it's a habit not everyone understands so he wears a loose fitting miracle collar which mainly does the trick.

I wouldn't put him through surgery unless his health was compromised which it isn't. It's just part of his quirky behaviour and he's happy. Cribbing isn't all bad.


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## soloequestrian (13 September 2011)

Speak to the vets at Leahurst (Liverpool) - I think they are the most up to date with colic/cribbing.  My understanding is that there is a link but it's not cribbing causing colic, it's more likely to be low grade colic causing pain that the cribbing helps to ease - it doesn't necessarily have to be ulcers causing the pain.


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## Luci07 (13 September 2011)

PooJay said:



			equally, stopping the cribbing might have a detrimental effect. It did massively for my horse, worst colic episode she'd ever had was the colic she had when she couldn't crib because she broke her cribbing post. 

The OP has already tried collars and everything else. What else would you suggest she does? Bearing in mind he's done it since he was a foal  i'm under the impression that you can't find out why a horse cribs unless it's actually got ulcers.
		
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I didn't offer a solution - and I do say that no one has managed to establish what causes it (logically I think we will find that there are number of routes which can lead to cirbbing). I can't agree that it is a good idea to allow a horse to carry on if it leads to colic. 

I hope that, in the very near future people will look at our lack of understanding on this subject with a degree of incredulity!

Does anyone know if horses actually crib in the wild? just wondering?


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## sbedoo (13 September 2011)

Had a mare many years ago done, as we wanted to breed from her, she had all types of collar but nothing stopped her, she went on to have a very long life died in her 20s having had 8 foals non of which went on to windsuck. Talk to your vet and I'm sure they will point you in the right direction.


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## Box_Of_Frogs (14 September 2011)

For gods sake, are you serious??? A desperate habit - brought about by poor management (not yours I know) - that the horse has learned in order to give himself some relief and you're seriously considering radical surgery. It would be like amputating a smoker's hands as a prescription for stopping smoking. Why has he got a stable mirror when stabled? Is he alone or can't see companions? Does he have company when turned out? Ye gods, can't you allow him to be even a tiny bit imperfect, especially when it's been caused at some time by humans???


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## Worried1 (14 September 2011)

My friend's horse had this done when we were kids, so about 18 years ago, he had the muscles removed... it didn't work he continued to windsuck all his life. 
His teeth were worn flat and he frequently filled with air and would colic but! The last I heard he was still going strong at the grand old age of 25!


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## pollypock1211 (14 September 2011)

Box_Of_Frogs said:



			For gods sake, are you serious??? A desperate habit - brought about by poor management (not yours I know) - that the horse has learned in order to give himself some relief and you're seriously considering radical surgery. It would be like amputating a smoker's hands as a prescription for stopping smoking. Why has he got a stable mirror when stabled? Is he alone or can't see companions? Does he have company when turned out? Ye gods, can't you allow him to be even a tiny bit imperfect, especially when it's been caused at some time by humans???
		
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Thanks for everyones advice it is really useful.. Since after trying everything else, and thinking long term, surgery was just something I was hoping to find out more information on. He would never go through it unnecessarily! He did have a mirror in his stable purely for his entertainment (which worked very well) whilst he was on boxrest during the summer months in 2010 and he loves his other toys which keep him entertained for hours then his hay lasts him through the night. 

He is kept with my one other horse, stables are next to each other he shares a 15 acre field with her with best grazing possible! and can see 3 other horses in the next field. He is only apart from her when out riding. My horse is far from perfect and it doesnt bother me one bit that he cribs !! what does bother me is his health and after having had so many problems in the past his health is my main priority at the moment.. If you would have read my original post, his cibbing is something he started whilst weaning when he was 1 ½ years old. Not sure if he was weaned too early and fed a high concentrated diet which may have contributed to it.


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## PooJay (14 September 2011)

pollypock1211 said:



			Thanks for everyones advice it is really useful.. Since after trying everything else, and thinking long term, surgery was just something I was hoping to find out more information on. He would never go through it unnecessarily! He did have a mirror in his stable purely for his entertainment (which worked very well) whilst he was on boxrest during the summer months in 2010 and he loves his other toys which keep him entertained for hours then his hay lasts him through the night. 

He is kept with my one other horse, stables are next to each other he shares a 15 acre field with her with best grazing possible! and can see 3 other horses in the next field. He is only apart from her when out riding. My horse is far from perfect and it doesnt bother me one bit that he cribs !! what does bother me is his health and after having had so many problems in the past his health is my main priority at the moment.. If you would have read my original post, his cibbing is something he started whilst weaning when he was 1 ½ years old. Not sure if he was weaned too early and fed a high concentrated diet which may have contributed to it.
		
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i honestly think you've done everything possible - except scoping for ulcers which is always a possibility but even if you find and treat them i doubt he will stop the cribbing. You sound like a very committed owner and you should be proud that you've put this much thought and effort into trying to help him


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## Amymay (14 September 2011)

PooJay said:



			i honestly think you've done everything possible - except scoping for ulcers which is always a possibility but even if you find and treat them i doubt he will stop the cribbing. You sound like a very committed owner and you should be proud that you've put this much thought and effort into trying to help him 

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I completely agree. Lucky horse


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## thundersprite (14 September 2011)

would be well worth scoping for ulcers
i do konw of one horse that had this op as a yearling his mum cribbed badly and he started cribbing, the op means they cant get the air in so did stop him cribbing but didnt stop him grabbing the stable door and going through the montions
its not some thing i would personally put a horse through but it did stop him from cribbing,
if you horse is stables a lot could you rug up well if clipped out and work him from grass keep him out 24/4 as seen this work well too,


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## pollypock1211 (14 September 2011)

amymay said:



			I completely agree. Lucky horse

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Thank you x


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## pollypock1211 (14 September 2011)

thundersprite said:



			would be well worth scoping for ulcers
i do konw of one horse that had this op as a yearling his mum cribbed badly and he started cribbing, the op means they cant get the air in so did stop him cribbing but didnt stop him grabbing the stable door and going through the montions
its not some thing i would personally put a horse through but it did stop him from cribbing,
if you horse is stables a lot could you rug up well if clipped out and work him from grass keep him out 24/4 as seen this work well too,
		
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I spoke to my vet about scoping for ulcers whilst my horse was there for yet another problem :/ he said he didnt think it was necessary to scoop due to the fact it was more than likely a habit/vice rather than a medical condition due to the length of time he has cribbed for. Apparently it is quite common from weaning and unfortunetly very difficult to break if started at this point. My vet advised to use the collars. 

Full turnout is an option i am just very pappy when the weather is bad - plus he still cribs on the post out in the field despite the lush grass throughout the year! So this would probably be pointless. 

So in conclusion I am going to put rubber matting on the top of his metal stable door to protect his teeth a little.. and the post in the field is coming out! He will only have one place to crib then which will be the field gate and its a far walk to it when hes at the other end of the field. 

Do you think his diet (high fibre, low starch) will suffice him through the winter - last year he was on Baileys Conditioning Cubes :/ i still ride 4x a week in winter and will be competing (jumping) probably every other week??


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