# Raw diet/mixer biscuit



## sonjafoers (29 August 2010)

I have changed my dogs onto a raw meat diet although I'm not strictly following the BARF diet. They get raw meat, bones and fish and I also buy some frozen preprepared raw meat nuggets which do contain some vegetable ingredients.

Because my bitch has had a problem when given bones or poultry necks ( as posted recently ) I have cut down on the amount of bone given and I feel they are lacking 'crunch' in their diet.

My pet shop has recommended a type of mixer biscuit which is very natural baked vegetable/herbage biscuit, but I have always read that biscuit should be fed separately to raw meat and there is no way that my dogs will eat  mixer biscuit on its own!!

I queried this with my vet who told me it was nonsense as it is because dogs digest biscuit at a different rate than they digest the meat, but they also do the same with bones in which case the bone should be fed separately from the meat.

Can anyone explain why the biscuit & meat shouldn't be fed together please and what problems it would cause if I fed a cup of the biscuit with the raw meat.

Thank you


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## KarynK (29 August 2010)

Is your vet familiar with feeding raw?  If not I strongly suggest he winds his neck in before he gives the wrong advice and someone sues him!

Cooked biscuit containing cereals moves slowly through the digestive system of the dog, because in order to get anything out of it the dog must take longer to break it down and digest it.  Meat and bone move and are digested quickly in a proper functioning carnivorous gut, which is highly acidic for this purpose.  Proteins are broken down quickly complex carbs are not.  That's why an elephant is so big and has a gut as long as a motorway, tree bark is hard to digest you have to stew it for a long time and get some help from friendly bacteria!

So that's why raw feeders don't feed it because its cooked and unnatural and unnecessary as bone is a dogs natural fibre not grain.  Having said that there are circumstances with old or problem dogs where bone cannot be fed at the desired amount, then you can either use chopped up bone, I would try contacting http://www.naturalinstinct.com/ I think they do a mince with ground bone.

It should not hurt to add a bit of mince to the mixer if you need to feed it, but not too much and I would use mince and not chunks.


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## sonjafoers (29 August 2010)

Thank you KarynK, I did originally want to try and follow the BARF diet but it just hasn't been possible to be strict with it due to my very fussy dogs and some digestive issues.

A proportion of their diet is minced raw meat which contains about 10% bone ( according to the bag ) so they are getting ground bone regularly. I was feeding chicken thighs, chicken wings, and tiny lamb chops with some bone but my bitch was bringing the bone back up again even when I chopped it up, so I now feed poultry necks and chop those up for her which she seems to be ok on.

As I only feed these twice a week the pet shop suggested these biscuits to give them some crunch, and also to provide some herbage as they will not eat any veg or blended veg at all.

I was only planning on giving them a cup a day, either split into 2 meals or just in one. Do you think it's ok to give them a small amount like that with the meat - I don't want to harm their system .

They are rotties by the way so a cup is a very small percentage of their daily intake.

Thank you


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## FrodoBeutlin (29 August 2010)

What did they eat before? Isn't it possible that a BARF diet just isn't for your bitch?


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## sonjafoers (29 August 2010)

They were on Hills biscuits previously with canned dog food as they wouldn't eat the biscuits on their own. 

They constantly had bad tummies which would gurgle a lot, bad wind and many days they would refuse the food.

We tried a variety of processed foods which they would eat for a week or two and then go off them, so the raw meat was a last resort really and they both love it.

After a lot of trial & error I buy frozen mince, blocks and nuggets from Prize Choice along with poultry necks, and they also have oily fish some days. They really like the meat and eat everything, their tummies and the waste product are now brilliant. 

The only downside has been my bitch bringing up small bone pieces which now seems to be solved by only giving her poultry necks twice a week. However, the meat on it's own is soft and I feel they may need something crunchy regularly for their teeth and to stop them getting bored. Of course I could be completely wrong


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## KarynK (29 August 2010)

I usually blend my veg with cold pressed fish oil and a raw egg or two mine only have a couple of tablespoons once or twice a week, though they can survive happily without veg at all, I have found that if I don't give them the veg they will find their own from what the horses leave behind!!!!  One of mine doesn't really like veg but will eat it served this way the other loves veg and will eat all sorts.  I usually use spinach and carrots plus any leftover veg in the fridge.

Whole bones are very good for cleaning teeth and of course for the nutrients and roughage they contain, so as long as they are getting bone through the mince that's good.  Muscle meat chewed well can also help the teeth and gums so perhaps some braising steaks that need a bit of a chew would help?

It does take some dogs time to adjust back to a natural diet, in this country we have now had dogs on what amounts largely to convenience junk food for a 50+ years so changing back is not always straightforward but if you persevere the rewards are great as you are already finding!


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## sonjafoers (29 August 2010)

KarynK you mention braising steaks but my vet (eek!) advised me that beef is not good for dogs with sensitive tummies - as such it is something we never give them.Both of them are very sensitive, apparently it's typical of the breed but also my male has had a lot of medication over the years which has damaged his stomach lining so we have to be very careful about what we give him.

I was thinking of buying some beef mince and mixing a small amount in with the chicken but I don't want to upset his tummy. Do you know if beef is bad for sensitive stomachs?


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## flying solo (29 August 2010)

I am really interested in this post, I have Husky who I got at 7 weeks (now 9 months). She had very runny poo and nothing the vet prescibed (hills) or food from pets at home etc would work. I tried BARF but she refused the veg! I now feed raw chicken, wings, pork, turkey, fish and another meat which is on offer at Tesco when I'm there. She gets omega oil, eggs, cod liver oil a couple of times a week too.

I have no idea if I'm doing it right at my vet was useless tried to change my mind but this was a last chioce for me. I have no one else to chat to but her health has improved massivly and she's gained weight at long last!

Chilli wouldn't touch anything else even if I offered it now.


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## soloabe (29 August 2010)

flying solo said:



			I am really interested in this post, I have Husky who I got at 7 weeks (now 9 months). She had very runny poo and nothing the vet prescibed (hills) or food from pets at home etc would work. I tried BARF but she refused the veg! I now feed raw chicken, wings, pork, turkey, fish and another meat which is on offer at Tesco when I'm there. She gets omega oil, eggs, cod liver oil a couple of times a week too.

I have no idea if I'm doing it right at my vet was useless tried to change my mind but this was a last chioce for me. I have no one else to chat to but her health has improved massivly and she's gained weight at long last!

Chilli wouldn't touch anything else even if I offered it now.
		
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Sounds about right to me!
I don't feed any veg, i don't feel its needed.

Hills is an awful food so well done to you!


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## blackcob (29 August 2010)

flying solo - You're not allowed to say you have a wolfydog on here without posting pics. 

Mine was exactly the same, chronic diarrhoea for several weeks with prescription diets making it worse until I switched totally to BARF and haven't had a problem since. It's definitely a husky thing, I've since heard of many who can't tolerate a commercial diet. Fish4Dogs is the only one she can eat and I do feed that very occasionally for convenience. 

I do feed veg but only because she really seems to enjoy it, I don't think it's at all necessary but she goes mad for it and I can often take leftover cooked veg from work that would otherwise be thrown away.  

sonjafoers, if it's an issue of teeth cleaning and keeping busy have you tried big beef bones from the butcher just to chew on for recreation rather than food? Mine will gnaw on a big bone for hours and only ingest the marrow and any clinging meaty bits, no chunks.


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## KarynK (30 August 2010)

sonjafoers said:



			KarynK you mention braising steaks but my vet (eek!) advised me that beef is not good for dogs with sensitive tummies - as such it is something we never give them.Both of them are very sensitive, apparently it's typical of the breed but also my male has had a lot of medication over the years which has damaged his stomach lining so we have to be very careful about what we give him.

I was thinking of buying some beef mince and mixing a small amount in with the chicken but I don't want to upset his tummy. Do you know if beef is bad for sensitive stomachs?
		
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Hmm! Vets yes, My sister  started feeding Raw about 15 years ago, her pack of huskies began having problems on a commercial food, the feed company and vets told her that her dogs were allergic to chicken and that she should change feeds every 3 months to avoid the diarrhoea, itching etc reappearing, their performance as sled dogs was affected and their coats were awful with one of her puppies not shedding properly for over a year.  

That's when she found Billinghurst's book and out of desperation read it and started to feed raw. She then  immediately understood why her dogs needed to swap feeds every 3 months as the foods were all equally deficient but deficient in different things!  Her violently chicken allergic dogs suddenly were able to tolerate chicken forming 60% of their diet! My sisters last litters were raw fed and what a difference!  The bitches fed them to 8 -9 weeks and beyond without any loss of condition or diarrhoea and one of her bitches asked for a fruit meal every evening whilst lactating.   I followed several months later when my lovely scruffy mutt died of intestinal cancer, if only!  Still her daughter that I also rescued went on to live to 14.

So yes Huskies appear to suffer more on "convenience" food and immediately improve on raw, says something I think!

If you feel able I would try a bit of mince beef and see how it goes,usually it's something in the cooked food that causes the sensitivity, but that can carry on when you change diets for a while, but if you feel all is well which I suspect it will be,  you can gradually introduce it back into the diet if not leave it for a few months and try again.  Beef bones are very hard and beef is not the best meat nutrition wise but it is good to have a variety in the diet if the dog can take it.

You could try turkey steaks instead for the teeth or cut the meat off a turkey leg and let her chew that?  Turkey is usually relatively cheap and would give a good chew.


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## KarynK (30 August 2010)

flying solo said:



			I am really interested in this post, I have Husky who I got at 7 weeks (now 9 months). She had very runny poo and nothing the vet prescibed (hills) or food from pets at home etc would work. I tried BARF but she refused the veg! I now feed raw chicken, wings, pork, turkey, fish and another meat which is on offer at Tesco when I'm there. She gets omega oil, eggs, cod liver oil a couple of times a week too.

I have no idea if I'm doing it right at my vet was useless tried to change my mind but this was a last chioce for me. I have no one else to chat to but her health has improved massivly and she's gained weight at long last!

Chilli wouldn't touch anything else even if I offered it now.
		
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Yes Huskys seem to be showing the effects of the convenience foods more readily.  You are certainly along the right lines with her and the improvement in health is the most important thing, your vet will probably rather reluctantly come round in the end!!!  

Just make sure she is getting plenty of bone, if you have a good local butcher it is well worth chatting them up, you'll get the bulk of the diet much cheaper that way.  Chicken carcasses are great as they are a good source of nutrients and are about 80% bone which is ideal for filling the dog up and maintaining body weight and they are a softer bone which is easier on dogs teeth which must be weaker from generations on the commercial diets.  

The really good thing with raw is that providing you feed a variety of meats and  bone you can't really go wrong, the diet can balance itself over a much more natural week or two rather than at every meal and they get to eat something different regularly rather than a flavoured biscuit.  If she won't eat veg try blending it with eggs and oil, sometimes I use the juice from their pilchards in tomato sauce and that works.   Mine aren't keen on raw fish but they eat the pilchards, so I sneak in some whitebait when it's on offer.  If she will eat liver that's good too, again my boys hate it so I have to brown both sides, then they do.  I do give them green tripe and they love that and lambs hearts  OOH thats a thought sonjafoers for the teeth Morrisons for about £1.

I stick my food in the Freezer in layers, so they might get chicken for a couple of days then a breast of lamb and some beef or pork but over two weeks they get a bit of everything on the menu, so I don't fret, if I forget they get it frozen and don't seem to care.  But it certainly sounds like you are away!!!


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