# Arghhhh he did it, he pulled away and *****ed off in the dark



## Horsekaren (13 December 2017)

I posted a few days ago about my horse pulling off and charging about the edge of the paddocks for a good hour! I knew it would have had an effect! Tonight he bolted back to his stable in the dark over taking another horse and causing a big fuss &#128555;

I lead him in dually with 10ft rope, he was walking to quick I asked him to slow down, asked again, he did for a second then went nope I'm off strait into canter, rope slipped out my hand and he was gone.

Advice again please -
If I use a lunge line can this be dangerous if he gets away?
If I try bridle and ten foot rope and he try's and loses me is it dangerous for him to be running about incase he treads on the rope?
Is there a stronger head collar than a dually? Are be nice ones better?

I know I can't win again his stregnth but I need to have the best chance to stop this. 
I know once he has walked nicely for a week we will be back to where he was.
I can't even take him back to try and correct him as it's pitch black hence I don't want this happening  

He is likely suffering from ulcers which we are about to confirm but that is no excuse for this type of behaviour is it? 

Needless to say I went home , pushed my dinner around my plate and felt sick worrying about having to do it all over again tomorrow


----------



## AdorableAlice (13 December 2017)

Having read all your questions on various threads, I would advise you get help before you get hurt and before the horse gets anymore topsides of you.


----------



## meleeka (13 December 2017)

Im afraid I would resort to a short sharp shock next time you feel him starting to use his strength, either with a bridle or a stallion chain under his chin. If his head is towards you he cant bog off so try and ensure his neck comes round rather than braces against you.


----------



## JFTDWS (13 December 2017)

AdorableAlice said:



			Having read all your questions on various threads, I would advise you get help before you get hurt and before the horse gets anymore topsides of you.
		
Click to expand...

Seconded.


----------



## Pinkvboots (13 December 2017)

I would not take him anywhere unless his in a bridle or stallion chain and he needs a good few sharp pulls on it to make him understand he can't just tank off, it's really dangerous having them get away from you especially in the dark.


----------



## TGM (13 December 2017)

Agree with AA and JFTD but would add that if you do try leading him in a bridle it would be a good idea to slip the rope through the bit ring(s) rather than clipping it on, then if he does get away the rope will just come free.


----------



## Pinkvboots (13 December 2017)

I just wanted to ask what is his grazing like? I find horses do this when they have been left on a bare field for hours on end in the middle of winter they are basically starving and can't wait to get to food, and this kind of management would definitely cause ulcers.


----------



## Amymay (13 December 2017)

As TGM says - bridle with a slip rope. And bring him in in daylight. I'm not a fan of long lines so would always want to use a standard lenght rope.

But as others have also advised, time for some professional help.


----------



## Horsekaren (13 December 2017)

AdorableAlice said:



			Having read all your questions on various threads, I would advise you get help before you get hurt and before the horse gets anymore topsides of you.
		
Click to expand...

Thanks,I am in contact with a few natural horsemanship trainers, I am trying to organise someone to come to my yard on the weekend as I'm not ashamed to admit I need help.

I have always been anti stallion chain but I don't know if it might help with this.


----------



## Pearlsasinger (13 December 2017)

Pinkvboots said:



			I just wanted to ask what is his grazing like? I find horses do this when they have been left on a bare field for hours on end in the middle of winter they are basically starving and can't wait to get to food, and this kind of management would definitely cause ulcers.
		
Click to expand...

This^^^^^^
But I also agree with AA.


----------



## Horsekaren (13 December 2017)

Pinkvboots said:



			I just wanted to ask what is his grazing like? I find horses do this when they have been left on a bare field for hours on end in the middle of winter they are basically starving and can't wait to get to food, and this kind of management would definitely cause ulcers.
		
Click to expand...

The field is good for grass at the moment, i did wonder if he was running for food but he ran past all the grass , stood outside his open stable which had his dinner in it


----------



## Amymay (13 December 2017)

Pinkvboots said:



			I just wanted to ask what is his grazing like? I find horses do this when they have been left on a bare field for hours on end in the middle of winter they are basically starving and can't wait to get to food, and this kind of management would definitely cause ulcers.
		
Click to expand...

Ah, missed this. But Yes, good question.


----------



## ihatework (13 December 2017)

Horsekaren said:



			Thanks,I am in contact with a few natural horsemanship trainers, I am trying to organise someone to come to my yard on the weekend as I'm not ashamed to admit I need help.

I have always been anti stallion chain but I don't know if it might help with this.
		
Click to expand...

To be honest you don&#8217;t sound experienced enough to know whether to be for/anti stallion chains.

By all means go the NH route, but to be honest this sounds like nothing other than good old fashioned horsemanship and boundary setting. 

I&#8217;d consider getting this horse on full livery and in a set routine with an experienced stable manager


----------



## AShetlandBitMeOnce (13 December 2017)

Agree that it's time to get professional help now, it's all well and good you keep trying different things, but allowing him to barge past someone else in the dark is unfair on that person as that is putting them at danger also. 

In the meantime, he either stays in his stable, or you make sure no-one else is in the firing line as he now knows that he can do pretty much whatever he feels like. You are creating a potentially dangerous horse.  Sorry if it's not what you want to hear.  There is no shame in seeking help!

I personally wouldn't want to put a stallion chain in the hands of a novice owner, as wrong timing for short sharp pain in an already taking the p*ss horse is a recipe for disaster


----------



## Amymay (13 December 2017)

Horsekaren said:



			I have always been anti stallion chain but I don't know if it might help with this.
		
Click to expand...

Please don't use a stallion chain or chiffney.


----------



## only_me (13 December 2017)

Agree with AA.

Use a bridle or a chiffney. Much better control, and you don't use them until you actually need it. Sometimes they just need "reminding" that you're the one in charge. It doesn't always need to be used but until he stops being unpredictable I would be using the bridle (ie. with a bit) or a chiffney. Just make sure someone has shown you how to use the chiffney, the bridle you can just use as normal.

I'd be very wary of NH type controls. 

Make sure you wear gloves if nothing else - you don't want rope burn.


----------



## Horsekaren (13 December 2017)

amymay said:



			Please don't use a stallion chain or chiffney.
		
Click to expand...

My lack of experience is why I have always been anti them.
I will get on top of this!
Thanks for the advice.
I need help!


----------



## Dave's Mam (13 December 2017)

Another one for professional help.  Not being "in touch" with trainers, someone THERE, on the ground with you.


----------



## meleeka (13 December 2017)

ihatework said:



			To be honest you don&#8217;t sound experienced enough to know whether to be for/anti stallion chains.


I&#8217;d consider getting this horse on full livery and in a set routine with an experienced stable manager
		
Click to expand...

I think thats harsh. Ive had horses for over thirty years and until I had a problem would never have considered a stallion chain. 

There are too many stories of staff letting horses get into bad habits for full livery to be the cure all. OP could end up with an even more difficult horse who might lead better, but end up with other problems.


----------



## Pinkvboots (13 December 2017)

Horsekaren said:



			Thanks,I am in contact with a few natural horsemanship trainers, I am trying to organise someone to come to my yard on the weekend as I'm not ashamed to admit I need help.

I have always been anti stallion chain but I don't know if it might help with this.
		
Click to expand...

I would rather use a stallion chain than a dually I find they are pretty useless for horses that know they can get away from you, why don't you just stick his bridle on it might be just enough to stop him from running if he knows his got a bit in his mouth.

I wouldn't have his bucket feed waiting for him when he comes in either, just have his Hay net in the stable when he returns from the field do everything you need to do and feed him just before you go.


----------



## JFTDWS (13 December 2017)

I'd like to clarify that by agreeing you need "professional" assistance, I did not mean an NH person.  Especially in your area, I'd be careful about that...


----------



## ycbm (13 December 2017)

amymay said:



			Please don't use a stallion chain or chiffney.
		
Click to expand...

Why not? A chifney will sort this problem in no time and everyone will be safe.


----------



## Sheep (13 December 2017)

JFTD said:



			I'd like to clarify that by agreeing you need "professional" assistance, I did not mean an NH person.  Especially in your area, I'd be careful about that...
		
Click to expand...

JFTD not singling you out at all, but if you / anyone else know(s) OP location could you maybe suggest some recommended trainers who OP could contact?

Horsekaren I agree with the others, you need to get someone to help you, hope you get sorted soon.


----------



## turnbuckle (13 December 2017)

Not necesarily naughty, perhaps just a bit cheeky with the cold!

I would try a headcollar with a soft lunge line threaded through the "cheek" bit round and over the poll and back again..

Keep it soft but be ready, when he tries it again, bring him round proper sharpish.

Worked with my terrorist!


----------



## Horsekaren (13 December 2017)

Dave's Mam said:



			Another one for professional help.  Not being "in touch" with trainers, someone THERE, on the ground with you.
		
Click to expand...

I would love nothing more than to have someone with me holding my hand through this bumpy path. But the fact is I can't get anyone out to help before the weekend and I have to deal with getting my horse in for the rest of the week and then following weeks.
He isn't on a full livery. 
We haven't had any problems leading since the pulling off on the weekend. I have been doing dually training and it's been great he as been the safest horse a dope on a rope. I now have a problem self produced but I have no choice but to deal with it.

I'm just looking for tips to help before I can tackle this in daylight with help on the weekend.


----------



## Amymay (13 December 2017)

ycbm said:



			Why not? A chifney will sort this problem in no time and everyone will be safe.
		
Click to expand...

Because the op doesn't have the experience to use either.


----------



## ihatework (13 December 2017)

Horsekaren said:



			I would love nothing more than to have someone with me holding my hand through this bumpy path. But the fact is I can't get anyone out to help before the weekend and I have to deal with getting my horse in for the rest of the week and then following weeks.
He isn't on a full livery. 
We haven't had any problems leading since the pulling off on the weekend. I have been doing dually training and it's been great he as been the safest horse a dope on a rope. I now have a problem self produced but I have no choice but to deal with it.

I'm just looking for tips to help before I can tackle this in daylight with help on the weekend.
		
Click to expand...

Stick a bridle on him, a decent rope and gloves with grip. Keep him close and the minute he even half thinks about doing anything other than walking in nicely ******* him. Don&#8217;t give him benefit of doubt either


----------



## The Fuzzy Furry (13 December 2017)

ycbm said:



			Why not? A chifney will sort this problem in no time and everyone will be safe.
		
Click to expand...

The OP doesn't have the experience to use one properly.


----------



## JFTDWS (13 December 2017)

Sheep said:



			JFTD not singling you out at all, but if you / anyone else know(s) OP location could you maybe suggest some recommended trainers who OP could contact?
		
Click to expand...

I don't know anyone decent in her area.  I do know a couple of "NH" people who are best avoided in that area, but obviously I'm not going to post those names on the open forum.


----------



## Horsekaren (13 December 2017)

The Xmas Furry said:



			The OP doesn't have the experience to use one properly.
		
Click to expand...

Agreed


----------



## The Fuzzy Furry (13 December 2017)

Horsekaren said:



			Agreed
		
Click to expand...

I'd offer to help but there is NO quick fix.
There is a lot of work, and homework for owner to repeat and repeat...
What county are you in?


----------



## Sheep (13 December 2017)

JFTD said:



			I don't know anyone decent in her area.  I do know a couple of people who are best avoided in that area, but obviously I'm not going to post those names on the open forum.
		
Click to expand...

Ahh fair enough - I understand why you'd not identify the "best avoided" ones!


----------



## {97702} (13 December 2017)

OK I am nothing but predictable, but have we established that this is for real???!!  

If so, then I totally agree with IHW's responses


----------



## Auslander (13 December 2017)

Horsekaren said:



			I would love nothing more than to have someone with me holding my hand through this bumpy path. But the fact is I can't get anyone out to help before the weekend and I have to deal with getting my horse in for the rest of the week and then following weeks.
He isn't on a full livery. 
We haven't had any problems leading since the pulling off on the weekend. I have been doing dually training and it's been great he as been the safest horse a dope on a rope. I now have a problem self produced but I have no choice but to deal with it.

I'm just looking for tips to help before I can tackle this in daylight with help on the weekend.
		
Click to expand...

Short term fix. Put a bridle on him, attach the lunge line to the bit ring nearest you, because that works most effectively to pull their heads round, then put the headcollar rope round his nose and thread it through the side ring of the (standard) headcollar so his nose is lassoed. Walk him in under close control - holding the headcollar rope taut, with his head slightly turned towards you, and the point of your elbow against his shoulder so that he can't shoulder barge you and **** off. Give a him a few nudges on the headcollar rope, so he knows it's there. 
If he still tries to get away, you've got the bridle and lunge line as back up. Do your damndest tp pull his head round, and wedge your fist on your hip to help you anchor him. Now isn't the time to think about backing him up, or taking him back and tarting again - it's just about getting him to his stable safely, with you in control.


----------



## ycbm (13 December 2017)

amymay said:



			Because the op doesn't have the experience to use either.
		
Click to expand...

You put it on. You hold if the horse tries to run away. The horse stops trying to run away. You stop holding.  It's simple. So much unnecessary fear about chifneys.  I've been quite tough with the odd bumptious horse in the past and never managed to damage one yet. They are very respectful of them almost always.

What would you prefer, that the OP gets her teeth kicked down her throat tomorrow?


----------



## AdorableAlice (13 December 2017)

ihatework said:



			Stick a bridle on him, a decent rope and gloves with grip. Keep him close and the minute he even half thinks about doing anything other than walking in nicely ******* him. Don&#8217;t give him benefit of doubt either
		
Click to expand...

The owner isn't able to do this judging by her comments and to be fair a rude horse could still get away from the handler.  None of us are strong enough to forcibly hold onto a horse that is leaving the scene through either rudeness or fear.

A properly halter broken horse is getting to be a rare beast - why ? because no one seems to remember it is the most important part of a young horses education and simply don't bother to train them.


----------



## Pearlsasinger (13 December 2017)

Horsekaren said:



			I would love nothing more than to have someone with me holding my hand through this bumpy path. But the fact is I can't get anyone out to help before the weekend and I have to deal with getting my horse in for the rest of the week and then following weeks.
He isn't on a full livery. 
We haven't had any problems leading since the pulling off on the weekend. I have been doing dually training and it's been great he as been the safest horse a dope on a rope. I now have a problem self produced but I have no choice but to deal with it.

I'm just looking for tips to help before I can tackle this in daylight with help on the weekend.
		
Click to expand...

Can you ask YO for help until the weekend?
When you lead, make sure that you have your hard hat and good gloves on.  Choose your gloves carefully, my cob can soon suss out if my gloves are slippy enough to let her get her head down on the way to the field, you need super grippy gloves.  Put his bridle on and lead with the reins, as you would at the end of a ride.  Keep a really close eye on his body language, so that you can correct him while he is still thinking about misbehaving.  Walk at, or just in front of, his shoulder, keep his head turned slightly towards you.  Hold a schooling whip just in front of him, vibrate it against his chest if he wants to go in front of you, so that he understands that it is there, if he keeps pushing use the whip more firmly, you can hold it in front of his nose when he understands that you *will* use it.  If you consider that the stick is a barrier, he will too.  Use this equipment in the morning when you put him out, so that you both get the idea before you need to bring in, in the dark.  If you can find a fellow livery to help, so much the better.


----------



## ihatework (13 December 2017)

AdorableAlice said:



			The owner isn't able to do this judging by her comments and to be fair a rude horse could still get away from the handler.  None of us are strong enough to forcibly hold onto a horse that is leaving the scene through either rudeness or fear.

A properly halter broken horse is getting to be a rare beast - why ? because no one seems to remember it is the most important part of a young horses education and simply don't bother to train them.
		
Click to expand...

It&#8217;s being dually&#8217;d by a Novice. I&#8217;d give her better odds of getting to and from field/stable with a bit in its gob over the next few days.


----------



## Pearlsasinger (13 December 2017)

AdorableAlice said:



			A properly halter broken horse is getting to be a rare beast - why ? because no one seems to remember it is the most important part of a young horses education and simply don't bother to train them.
		
Click to expand...

You are right AA.  I have to say that I think that is because so few people can use a halter properly and they don't fit headcollars to be effective either.


----------



## ycbm (13 December 2017)

ihatework said:



			It&#8217;s being dually&#8217;d by a Novice. I&#8217;d give her better odds of getting to and from field/stable with a bit in its gob over the next few days.
		
Click to expand...

Exactly.


----------



## Amymay (13 December 2017)

ycbm said:



			What would you prefer, that the OP gets her teeth kicked down her throat tomorrow?
		
Click to expand...

Obviously not - don't be facetious. 

But she stands more chance of that happening mis-using a chiffney or stallion chain, than using a bridle.


----------



## debsflo (13 December 2017)

Are you getting the vet to check for ulcers as a priority.
My young mare was behaving horrendously after we changed fields, barging and got away from me bringing in one day and jumped a fence.
After a week of her behaviour on the ground worsening I was concerned that something physical was going on as she was bordering on dangerous and like you I was dreading having to deal with her.
I put her on box rest for a few days and pain relief and gave us a bit of time and then used a bridle and 12 foot rope for lead in.
Prior to that she was in a dually it made no difference.
After 3 vet visits in 3 weeks I asked them to scope her which they did and we found grade 3 ulcers.
My poor mare has been in pain and that was a large part of her behaviour.
Please get you're horse checked out before assuming it's just naughty t  s.


----------



## ycbm (13 December 2017)

AdorableAlice said:



			A properly halter broken horse is getting to be a rare beast - why ? because no one seems to remember it is the most important part of a young horses education and simply don't bother to train them.
		
Click to expand...

I see it the other way round AA. Most people with young horses train them fine. Then they get sold and new owners who want to 'bond' and be 'loved' let the discipline drop, let them snatch grass, rush to the field, etc, and teach the horse to ignore the halter.


----------



## ycbm (13 December 2017)

amymay said:



			Obviously not - don't be facetious. 

But she stands more chance of that happening mis-using a chiffney or stallion chain, than using a bridle.
		
Click to expand...

I am not being facetious, I consider it a real risk. And a risk that would be hugely reduced by using a chifney. I have never seen anything but good come of using them. I have no idea why people are so scared of them. I think it's just the look of them.


----------



## Horsekaren (13 December 2017)

Can I ask how you all come to have this wealth of experience ? 
I was a stable girl at a riding school for 3 years at the age of 11 obviously didn't learn much, I then loaned and learnt a lot but it seems I'm struggling with lack of knowledge and experience , i can't gain experience as I'm living it, what else can I do ?? How did everyone else learn to deal with a horse that wasn't perfect all the time? 
I read and read and pester everyone on here is there anything else I should be doing ? 
I confidently deal with all of the other horses on the yard but it seems when it comes to my own I'm failing...


----------



## poiuytrewq (13 December 2017)

ycbm said:



			Why not? A chifney will sort this problem in no time and everyone will be safe.
		
Click to expand...

Mm, also could cause a broken jaw or tongue amputation if the horse does manage to get loose and stands on the rope whilst tearing off. Some horses don't respect a chifney, if this horse has never worn one it possibly won't.


----------



## Dave's Mam (13 December 2017)

When I started to lose my grip on my confidence, I got my instructor in.   Beside me, on the ground.  She worked with us both.  She taught me how to handle my pony & taught me how to handle my confidence.
If I knew where you were, I could tell you if she would be able to get to you.  Many on here have seen videos of how she backed my pony & vouch for her ways.

Feel free to pm me.


----------



## ycbm (13 December 2017)

poiuytrewq said:



			Mm, also could cause a broken jaw or tongue amputation if the horse does manage to get loose and stands on the rope whilst tearing off. Some horses don't respect a chifney, if this horse has never worn one it possibly won't.
		
Click to expand...

Never seen or heard of a genuine case of that happening. Lots of apocryphal stories, yes, but no evidence.

But frankly, if it's between that and the horse kicking her head in tomorrow, I'd take the horse getting hurt rather than the handler every time.


----------



## AdorableAlice (13 December 2017)

ycbm said:



			I see it the other way round AA. Most people with young horses train them fine. Then they get sold and new owners who want to 'bond' and be 'loved' let the discipline drop, let them snatch grass, rush to the field, etc, and teach the horse to ignore the halter.
		
Click to expand...

You have a point.  Out of my 3 youngsters I have one that would forget his manners in someone elses hands.  Another point is that so many people think rudeness is normal behaviour.  The comment of ' oh he always does that' gets my goat.  Sadly the horse is always the one to ultimately suffer from poor training.


----------



## ycbm (13 December 2017)

Horsekaren said:



			Can I ask how you all come to have this wealth of experience ? 
I was a stable girl at a riding school for 3 years at the age of 11 obviously didn't learn much, I then loaned and learnt a lot but it seems I'm struggling with lack of knowledge and experience , i can't gain experience as I'm living it, what else can I do ?? How did everyone else learn to deal with a horse that wasn't perfect all the time? 
I read and read and pester everyone on here is there anything else I should be doing ? 
I confidently deal with all of the other horses on the yard but it seems when it comes to my own I'm failing...
		
Click to expand...

Truthfully, you probably want him to like/love you too much.

If you treat him like every other horse in the yard, he is likely to behave like every other horse in the yard.


----------



## mini-eventer (13 December 2017)

Stick a bridle on him, lunge line through the bit rings. I have had exactly the same issue. Despite considering myself relatively experienced. He knew exactly what he was doing it was ingrained by the time I got him. There were times that the he ended up on the end of the rope but you then have a bit of leverage to stop them. He never got away from me with the bridle on. Don&#8217;t get disheartened. But don&#8217;t bring him in in anything less than a bridle for a good while.


----------



## ycbm (13 December 2017)

AdorableAlice said:



			You have a point.  Out of my 3 youngsters I have one that would forget his manners in someone elses hands.  Another point is that so many people think rudeness is normal behaviour.  The comment of ' oh he always does that' gets my goat.  Sadly the horse is always the one to ultimately suffer from poor training.
		
Click to expand...

With you there. Too much wanting the horse to love you, not enough discipline.


----------



## poiuytrewq (13 December 2017)

Horsekaren said:



			Can I ask how you all come to have this wealth of experience ? 
I was a stable girl at a riding school for 3 years at the age of 11 obviously didn't learn much, I then loaned and learnt a lot but it seems I'm struggling with lack of knowledge and experience , i can't gain experience as I'm living it, what else can I do ?? How did everyone else learn to deal with a horse that wasn't perfect all the time? 
I read and read and pester everyone on here is there anything else I should be doing ? 
I confidently deal with all of the other horses on the yard but it seems when it comes to my own I'm failing...
		
Click to expand...

You can and are gaining experience, this is all a learning curve and one day you will be advising someone in a similar situation what you have learnt. 
I think it's harder with your own horse because maybe a little bit of you wants the horse to like you? This is an easy way to slip up. Be firm regardless. Secondly if you can't handle a friends horse who cares? Hand it back, that's not an option with your own so it becomes more important and more stressful when it's going wrong. 
Chin up! You've had some good advise and you will get there


----------



## Amymay (13 December 2017)

ycbm said:



			I have no idea why people are so scared of them. I think it's just the look of them.
		
Click to expand...

They are a useful tool _in the right hands_. And I'm certainly not scared of them. But I've seen the damage caused on handler and horse as a result of inexperience. 

Thankfully the op is not stupid....... &#128527;


----------



## Leo Walker (13 December 2017)

A Dually was the only thing that worked with mine. Chifneys and bridles or ropes over the poll/nose etc made no difference. Neither did hours of ground work. He would be fine 99.9% of the time but if he sensed any sort of weakness he would sod off. He tried it a couple of times in a Dually, got brought round and back under control and then gave up. So long as he had it on we never had an issue with him. 

If this horse has learnt to get away in a Dually, its going to get away in a bridle or  headcollar and probably in a chifney. The OP is clearly a novice. What is she going to do after she stops this horse getting away and then has to deal with a hyped up horse on the end of a rope?? Or if he gets away and is galloping round with a chifney in his mouth?

Its all well and good recommending things that have worked for you, but you need to bear in mind who you are recommending it to!

Honestly OP, leave the horse in the stable. Get the vet back out as a priority and then when you have identified and removed pain you can worry about the rest.


----------



## poiuytrewq (13 December 2017)

ycbm said:



			Never seen or heard of a genuine case of that happening. Lots of apocryphal stories, yes, but no evidence.

But frankly, if it's between that and the horse kicking her head in tomorrow, I'd take the horse getting hurt rather than the handler every time.
		
Click to expand...

I have. 
Some horses who have maybe never worn one don't have any respect. I have one that rears loading regardless of what's in his mouth. 
I do however agree they are usually invaluable and stop trouble before it begins with lots of horses. I have one hanging out on the yard at work permenantly.


----------



## JFTDWS (13 December 2017)

Every time you handle someone else's horse and do something less than ideal, the next day, the owner has the opportunity to correct it before the horse learns to be a total thug.  When you handle your own, day in, day out, there is no external correction - every mistake you make is cumulative.  And then you end up with a beast.

Wisdom comes from experience.  Experience is very often the result of a lack of wisdom.  You make mistakes and you learn from them - or not - but the trouble with horses is that if the first mistake is bad enough, you may not get that chance.  Hence the recommendations of external, quality input.



Sheep said:



			Ahh fair enough - I understand why you'd not identify the "best avoided" ones!
		
Click to expand...

No :eek3:


----------



## Auslander (13 December 2017)

Horsekaren said:



			Can I ask how you all come to have this wealth of experience ? 
I was a stable girl at a riding school for 3 years at the age of 11 obviously didn't learn much, I then loaned and learnt a lot but it seems I'm struggling with lack of knowledge and experience , i can't gain experience as I'm living it, what else can I do ?? How did everyone else learn to deal with a horse that wasn't perfect all the time? 
I read and read and pester everyone on here is there anything else I should be doing ? 
I confidently deal with all of the other horses on the yard but it seems when it comes to my own I'm failing...
		
Click to expand...

What you're dealing with at the moment is what will make you more able to deal with it if it happens with another horse down the line. A lot of people on here have been dealing with tricky horses for a long time, and we've learned what we know through bitter experience. You don't learn about tricky horses helping out at riding schools, as they are generally pretty easy, and the ones that aren't, aren't left to helpers to handle. 
I've been working with horses for 25 years, and I've always ended up being delegated the naughty ones, as I'm tall, strong, and have always had a bit of a knack for keeping all 4 feet mostly where I want them. 
My beloved Alf was a fruitcake when I got him - he panicked, knocked me over and trampled me twice in the first two weeks I had him, and I couldn't lead him anywhere without a bridle and a lungeline - I learned pretty quickly that if I babied him he was worse - so started giving him a dig in the ribs with one elbow and telling him to shut up every time he started to bubble over - he's now absolutely rock solid, and doesn't really need to be led anywhere - he brings himself in and turns himself out with no headcollar on if I can't be bothered to put one on him! 

No-one's perfect, but if you learn something from every horse you handle, you'll get there!


----------



## budatiger (13 December 2017)

OP did you do any work with the Dually to teach the horse the idea of pressure/release? Is it correctly fitted? They have to be fitted snug to work effectively and the handler must understand the concept behind them. They are a really effective tool...when used correctly and appropriately. Useless, and potentially quite damaging to the horse if not.


----------



## Dubsie (13 December 2017)

I always lead with the expectation the horse will stay by my side and not be silly, the rope is slack if the head is down and the horse is moving forward.  Any variation and the slack is taken up by me, pressure released when doing as I ask.  If horse is looking at something else and walks sideways into me (as she does, she can be a right idiot about the silliest of things, and she can also grow ridiculously tall) then an elbow sharply appears to protect my space. I expect complete manners at gates, we turn and close/lock them as required, ditto restoring power to the electric fence. No grass may be consumed, even though the mowed paths are lush and very tempting, eating is not permitted when we are on the move. We do not rush, we do not hang about, everything is the same pace every time so the routine is identical.  I always wear gloves, and food is never in the stable.


----------



## Dave's Mam (13 December 2017)

Another possibilty.  Could you get to your yard in daylight tomorrow?  Half day, early finish & owe time & get a feel for things in daylight?

ETA When Dave is being a knob, I also use the close control & elbow into his shoulder.


----------



## GTRJazz (13 December 2017)

I lead three horses through a field with better grass every morning to their winter field I would say the communication through the lead rope is as busy as when I am riding a dressage test I watch their ever move and preempt it without any voice commands. 
I have used a Chiffney in the past and for a horse that is strong and poorly trained it is a good option.
The thought that you may need a long rope to move a horse is the point to seek professional help


----------



## HappyHorses:) (13 December 2017)

If your not feeling comfortable using a separate stallion chain etc and think a bridle may be a faff why don't you use one of the ESKADRON CONTROL HEADCOLLAR? You can have a rope on the normal head collar ring and one on the chain that is fixed around the nose part. If he pulls it will tighten, if he stops pulling the chain loosens so he should learn pulling is uncomfortable. If he goes to take off you can give a quick reminder that it's not acceptable. 

If he gets away from you he will stop pretty soon if he steps on the chain rope. Don't worry about him hurting himself, he sounds smart enough to know what he can get away with and I'm sure is smart enough to know when he won't be able to  

I use this on my tank of a 15.3 Section D Stallion and it works great. It's a nightmare when they realise they can set a neck and go.

Don't overthink that you may hurt him by using something stronger for control, nip it in the bud now as he sounds like he's taking the pee pee. 

Whether he has ulcers, wants his tea or a blade of grass he has to be reminded that behaviour is never ok. 

You can do it OP. Loads of good advice from HHOs on here for you to think about.


----------



## buddylove (14 December 2017)

Not read the entire thread, but have you been taught how to use the dually by an IH associate? Too many people buy them thinking they are the cure of all ills and then slate them because they haven't used them properly. Get a recommended associate out and let them teach you, it really does make a difference.


----------



## DD (14 December 2017)

Horsekaren said:



			Thanks,I am in contact with a few natural horsemanship trainers, I am trying to organise someone to come to my yard on the weekend as I'm not ashamed to admit I need help.

I have always been anti stallion chain but I don't know if it might help with this.
		
Click to expand...

sounds to me that you need to stop being a fluffy bunny and get real. the horse is bogging off because it knows it can. its a horse not a human. give it some proper training and disapin stop pussy footing around with new age ridicules methods. get some respect.


----------



## Horsekaren (14 December 2017)

You are right I know I need to get tough! Can I ask exactly how you would tackle this? I need respect, now!  He went out in his bridle this morning and was fine, but I need to know he isn't going to bog off all the time. How would you break this habit? I know it's utter rudeness, he got away once and now knows he can. 
I have done stop starting, backing up, ground work, what specifically would you do?

Thanks everyone for the advice it means the world!
I have another livery meeting me tonight for help. I will be armed with whip and longer rope. Would you stick with the bridle again? Or try and get the respect back on the dually? 
I will try and keep his head towards me. Would you suggest i be firm the entire way with a tough grip and elbows or let he walk until he missbehaves? My issue with theblater is if I'm ntnquick enough to react.










Downton Dame said:



			sounds to me that you need to stop being a fluffy bunny and get real. the horse is bogging off because it knows it can. its a horse not a human. give it some proper training and disapin stop pussy footing around with new age ridicules methods. get some respect.
		
Click to expand...


----------



## Ceriann (14 December 2017)

Pinkvboots said:



			I would rather use a stallion chain than a dually I find they are pretty useless for horses that know they can get away from you, why don't you just stick his bridle on it might be just enough to stop him from running if he knows his got a bit in his mouth.

I wouldn't have his bucket feed waiting for him when he comes in either, just have his Hay net in the stable when he returns from the field do everything you need to do and feed him just before you go.
		
Click to expand...

This - bridle for better control (and remind him he's in it - I don't mean yank him about but a couple of reminders he's under your control) and take away the incentive to tank.  Mine get hay when first in - one bolts and I worry about choke but some time with a hay net calms that down.

Owning your first horse is a very steep curve and nearly 20 years post mine I'm still learning and changing how I do things.  This forum is great for support and advice (even if some of it is a bit sharp).  Keep asking but also get yourself some support on the ground.  I'm not anti NH but anyone who can give you some tips on handling etc would be good.


----------



## Auslander (14 December 2017)

Horsekaren said:



			You are right I know I need to get tough! Can I ask exactly how you would tackle this? I need respect, now!  He went out in his bridle this morning and was fine, but I need to know he isn't going to bog off all the time. How would you break this habit? I know it's utter rudeness, he got away once and now knows he can. 
I have done stop starting, backing up, ground work, what specifically would you do?

Thanks everyone for the advice it means the world!
I have another livery meeting me tonight for help. I will be armed with whip and longer rope. Would you stick with the bridle again? Or try and get the respect back on the dually? 
I will try and keep his head towards me. Would you suggest i be firm the entire way with a tough grip and elbows or let he walk until he missbehaves? My issue with theblater is if I'm ntnquick enough to react.
		
Click to expand...

Without wishing to sound unpleasant, you need to stop faffing around with the Dually for the moment, as he knows he can get away from you in it, and you say yourself that you aren't quick enough with it yet. A lot of people have told you to put a bridle on him, and get tough. You are getting help in, so you just need to be able to get him in safely for the moment. Right now is not the time to be thinking about training, so don't even think about trying stop/start/back up right now - just focus on getting him in quickly, safely, under control, and save the retraining for when you have professional help. 
I posted above - you may have missed it. What I said there is what I would do with a horse as a short term solution, to keep you and him safe until you have a pro on board to fix the underlying issue.


----------



## DD (14 December 2017)

get a bit in his mouth and keep his head pointed towards you even when moving forwards he can move crabwise its ok. don't be afraid of pulling really hard. wear gloves. give him a sharp tug if you even think for a moment that hes going to leg it. he knows he can get away from you so he will. you need to get the upper hand if it hurts him so be it better than him hurting you. and wear a riding hat when leading incase he decides to rear then he cannot go forward.. very short lead rope keep at his shoulder your elbow into it if need be and don't be afraid of giving his mouth a shank.


----------



## Horsekaren (14 December 2017)

Auslander said:



			Without wishing to sound unpleasant, you need to stop faffing around with the Dually for the moment, as he knows he can get away from you in it, and you say yourself that you aren't quick enough with it yet. A lot of people have told you to put a bridle on him, and get tough. You are getting help in, so you just need to be able to get him in safely for the moment. Right now is not the time to be thinking about training, so don't even think about trying stop/start/back up right now - just focus on getting him in quickly, safely, under control, and save the retraining for when you have professional help. 
I posted above - you may have missed it. What I said there is what I would do with a horse as a short term solution, to keep you and him safe until you have a pro on board to fix the underlying issue.
		
Click to expand...

Ah I have just seen it, thanks. Bridle and lunge line. I'm just gutted about the dually as it was great! It's like he has suddley realised how to stop it from being effective. I will add he has now done this twice once on Saturday and yesterday. I plan on doing lots of work on this over the weekend with help and alone so I am keen for training tips. 
I have a feeling I'm going to pop him on a lunge line and he is going to try to off off whilst lungeing which I guess is a good opportunity to get the respect back. Since he is being worked less with his problems things are getting worse!  More work hendoesnthe happier he has always seemed and respectful!


----------



## alainax (14 December 2017)

I've found the be nice headcollars to be more effective than a dually, but still not everyone's cup of tea.These fluffy padded headcollars we have these days are easy for a horse to pull through, the be nice is more similar to a traditional western rope halter. 

The first thing I'd be looking at is your response to him pulling. Does he pull pull pull end up in a tug of war the bog off? Or does he walk nice, spook, then bog off? 

If it's the former then it could be a lot to do with how you react. It's often our first instinct to pull back ( in riding too). We end up giving them something to lean/pull on. There should be nothing there, ( like training a pulley dog too), pressure release short little checks on the rope to get him to slow down, with increasing intensity if he's not listening. If he's still not listening pop him on a circle until he realises he is going no where until he walks nice. 

I've got one who was a bit feral, he would have loved to bog off, he spent a few month doing a few circles ennroute to the field. Now he walks well.


----------



## Landcruiser (14 December 2017)

I'm saddened by the number of people giving advice to yank on a horse's mouth or nose and inflict pain (and potentially damage) by using bits, chains and chifneys. I always wonder if you'd do the same with a dog or other animal. Yes, I know a horse is a big and dangerous animal, but I don't believe this is an excuse to inflict pain. 

I find Duallys awkward and cumbersome, and the pull comes from the wrong direction. A plain western rope halter (non tightening and correctly fitted)) is much more effective and so much easier to use. A long rope with some weight to it - at least 12 feet long - makes for much safer handling. Leading off a bridle seems crazy to me - the horse only has to turn to face you and pull back, and you have nothing. I've seen this with my own eyes at every fun ride I've ever been to (ok that's an exageration!) - but the number of people I've seen hauled down ramps and then wondering why their horse is now tanking off between the horseboxes...wearing a bridle.. Forgive me for wanting no part of that.

OP, you are in trouble because this horse has got away from you twice now, and yes, you need to toughen up, but by being prepared, setting yourself up to succeed, pre-planning...I don't think the vet is going to come up with a magic and instant cure, and I don't believe that shutting the horse in a stable for several days will help the situation in any way - far from it. It's not just a short term solution you need, you have to take back control of your horse properly - but by using your big human brain and the laws of physics rather than by brute force and dominance. You CAN hold onto a horse that is tanking off, but it's not easy and you have to be wearing grippy gloves, a hat, good grippy boots, the right rope/halter, and be on a decent surface. Mud won't work. But far better to not let it get that far. Good luck OP.


----------



## Horsekaren (14 December 2017)

yesterday he was walking faster than i wanted, i pressure and released to slow down, ignored, i did it again he listened slowed his walk for two/ three strides then head up straight into canter, it was to quick and powerful. i released the pressure as soon as he slowed but it was false, he wasn't being nice, he was preparing his next move which i honestly didn't see coming.  I truly don't believe he is spooking at the moment, when he spooks his isn't normally brave enough to run. So yes i guess we are embarking on a tug of war as my reaction is too slow, once the pressure is on the Dually he can pull through it if its not removed, i tend to just try and hold on so i'm giving him that to pull on. 

I know these head collars have mixed reviews but when its used properly its great! but he isnt giving me the chance to use it at the moment, he is disrespecting it. I am tempted to try a be nice, but i struggle to see where the pressure and release is? to me it just looks like a rope version of a standard head collar. i will read up on it some more. 

i will add that he was lead in a bridle at his last home so he had come one leaps and bounds, i was so proud of him and how we had tackled it, we went 6 months of perfection leading. but he has it in him, always has, im happy to use a bridle for now but i dont want to always be leading him in a bridle, i don't want him to be a problem horse i will feel utterly ashamed of myself if he doesnt get back to where he was! 













alainax said:



			I've found the be nice headcollars to be more effective than a dually, but still not everyone's cup of tea.These fluffy padded headcollars we have these days are easy for a horse to pull through, the be nice is more similar to a traditional western rope halter. 

The first thing I'd be looking at is your response to him pulling. Does he pull pull pull end up in a tug of war the bog off? Or does he walk nice, spook, then bog off? 

If it's the former then it could be a lot to do with how you react. It's often our first instinct to pull back ( in riding too). We end up giving them something to lean/pull on. There should be nothing there, ( like training a pulley dog too), pressure release short little checks on the rope to get him to slow down, with increasing intensity if he's not listening. If he's still not listening pop him on a circle until he realises he is going no where until he walks nice. 

I've got one who was a bit feral, he would have loved to bog off, he spent a few month doing a few circles ennroute to the field. Now he walks well.
		
Click to expand...


----------



## Polos Mum (14 December 2017)

If the bridle worked then stick with that - for months if need be - until he has totally forgotten about running off. 

In my experience they learn respect not through 1 or 2 'sessions' on the ground or with a trainer but in EVERY single interaction you have with them. it's tiny, minute things you do / don't do that build up to the bigger picture. 
So when you go in his stable and he doesn't step away from the door or tries to mug you for a scratch or sweets - that's rude 
When you tie him up to groom and he swings his bum around - that's rude 
When you pick his feet out and he doesn't lift them up promptly - that's rude
When you're leading/ riding and stop to talk to someone and he fidgets around - that's rude
When you ask him to step back and it take 3 asks and a push to his chest - that's rude. 
Look at him with fresh eyes and see how he responds to you generally

You need him to do as you ask to the letter in all circumstances all the time - and in my experience that means being really picky.  SO correcting every little bit of rudeness as it happens - even if it's no big deal nor causing a problem. 
So when he's tied up and swings around to look at something - move him back
When he doesn't move for you to come in his stable - (initially) totally over react throw your hands in the air and shout - you'll get his attention. 

Best yet - get someone else to observe and then point out all the little bits of behaviour that are building up to him pulling away - I'd guarantee it's not the only symptom.


----------



## Sussexbythesea (14 December 2017)

ycbm said:



			I am not being facetious, I consider it a real risk. And a risk that would be hugely reduced by using a chifney. I have never seen anything but good come of using them. I have no idea why people are so scared of them. I think it's just the look of them.
		
Click to expand...

I agree. Its hopefully not a long-term solution but keeps horse and handler safe as well as anyone else that might have been in the path of an escapee horse.


----------



## meleeka (14 December 2017)

Landcruiser said:



			I'm saddened by the number of people giving advice to yank on a horse's mouth or nose and inflict pain (and potentially damage) by using bits, chains and chifneys. I always wonder if you'd do the same with a dog or other animal. Yes, I know a horse is a big and dangerous animal, but I don't believe this is an excuse to inflict pain.
		
Click to expand...

Not an excuse to inflict pain but possibly a quick solution to a dangerous problem. In an ideal world the OP would have a nice mud free route to the field, all the time in the world to train the horse and of course, daylight. That isnt going to happen so she needs to take back control quickly and effectively now. I would never have chosen to inflict pain on my boy, its a horrible thought, but then I didnt, he inflicted it on himself when he went to bog off.  I had to hand walk him while on box rest with no facilities whatsoever so understandly when he got out of that stable he forgot his manners. I tried a bridle without success and resorted to a stallion chain. He only went to go once and the shock of it stopped him in his tracks. He was perfect after that and I was safe again.I wish Id done it straight away as it transpired hed re-injured himself during his airs above the ground so it all went on far longer than it should have.


----------



## Hallo2012 (14 December 2017)

i would just get either lemieux or eskadron chain headcollar and be done with it.

they apply no more pressure if the horse is behaving and only come in to play if they go to pull, and you can clip it to the normal ring to tie up so minimal faffing. you will safer, every single time, and the horse will pick up on that confidence and most likely behave.

whilst i have NEVER seen any kind of injury caused by a horse pulling away in a chifney and sodding off trailing the rope, i accept its a possibility that is lessened by the chain headcollars as at worst if they DO stand on the rope hard, they scuff their nose (and i tend to think well boo hoo shouldnt have pulled away then should you!)

we always led our big stallion in a chain, hardly ever needed it, but when we did, it was there, instantly............however dont just lean on it and pull and try and hold him back..............let him walk on a lose rope and when he goes to pull absolutely give him a sharp sock and make him slam on the anchors and back up several quick steps. then walk on again on a lose rope-that is your pressure and release.....


----------



## MotherOfChickens (14 December 2017)

Horsekaren said:



			Can I ask how you all come to have this wealth of experience ? 
I was a stable girl at a riding school for 3 years at the age of 11 obviously didn't learn much, I then loaned and learnt a lot but it seems I'm struggling with lack of knowledge and experience , i can't gain experience as I'm living it, what else can I do ?? How did everyone else learn to deal with a horse that wasn't perfect all the time? 
I read and read and pester everyone on here is there anything else I should be doing ? 
I confidently deal with all of the other horses on the yard but it seems when it comes to my own I'm failing...
		
Click to expand...

quite honestly many of the posters on here have the luxury of not posting every cock up on the internet because it didn't exist back then  and then there are those of us that worked with horses for many years and got to handle many, many horses over the years. Most of us know when we have a horse we can't handle and know enough to get help with. get help with your horse asap-and don't bother with some NH trainer, too many of them are rubbish. 

In the meantime-get a bridle on it, normal length rope (am not a fan of long ropes-they can just build up speed!), coupling and keep a strong hold-if he so much as looks at you funny you correct him and as someone else said-do not give him the benefit of the doubt-use your right elbow in his neck and his head towards you slightly.wear gloves and a hat.

I don't know if this is the case with this horse but they can get fractious if cold/hungry or even tired. that isn't the point though, he should still be safe for you to lead.


----------



## Adonissaan (14 December 2017)

Hi Horsekaren - 

I use a stud rope with chain and put it across my boys nose. This has helped so much you wouldn't believe and is stronger and a bit harsher than a dually.

I give a sharp tug whenever he is going to act up - he hardly ever even tries after having this on for 3 months.

Just a tip if you were to try one never tie him up with the chain around his nose - sometimes my boy can be a problem getting him tied up as well so I usually have another lead rope tied up ready to attach to his headcollar so he can't bolt back!


----------



## Hallo2012 (14 December 2017)

i do find it a bit worrying that so far in about 2 days of forum life we have one horse that cant be led down the road for a mere 20 mins, one that wont come in from the field without decking its owner, and now advice from someone with a horse that wont stand for 5 seconds to be tied up and has to have a rope waiting?!


----------



## Damnation (14 December 2017)

Ok 2 things.

1) Groundwork. I would be doing alot of groundwork in the school to restablish who is really in charge, teaching him pressure/release etc. I would get help from instructor when doing this.

2) Bridle or stallion chain over the nose, lunge line, hat and gloves. You need to learn his body language, read when he is thinking about going. At this point use your groundwork, ask him to stop, move over, back up etc. Regain control of his neck/feet then walk on. Make sure his neck is bent towards you and relaxed, worse case scenario, dig your elbow into his shoulder and bend his neck towards you, it isn't a magical cure all but it definately make it more difficult for them to pee off!

Definately get help and stay safe!


----------



## Horsekaren (14 December 2017)

Hallo2012 said:



			i do find it a bit worrying that so far in about 2 days of forum life we have one horse that cant be led down the road for a mere 20 mins, one that wont come in from the field without decking its owner, and now advice from someone with a horse that wont stand for 5 seconds to be tied up and has to have a rope waiting?!
		
Click to expand...

Yes these are worrying that is why we are seeking advice from people who have potentially dealt with this before.   My horse will walk back from the field nicely has done for 6 months but an incident has occurred and i am trying to correct it and struggling. 

Horses aren't perfect, far from it... we can try out best to keep them in check but they all have their moments and i'm living one. He isnt a wild beast thats left to rule his world, i try really hard to keep him in check but sometimes your go to things (dually ) fail and then another solution has to be found. I know its all about training and respect but that inst instant. .. and tbh i have been really proud of how my boy improved with his ground manors since i have had him, the fact he hasn't been lead in a bridle every day and walked and stood nicely for most of his time with me speaks volumes. Now i have hit a bump in the road. 

My last loan horse was perfect to lead, taught me nothing, that wasn't my doing, that was the horse and how it had behaved for 20 years not all horses are the same


----------



## Wagtail (14 December 2017)

Landcruiser said:



			I'm saddened by the number of people giving advice to yank on a horse's mouth or nose and inflict pain (and potentially damage) by using bits, chains and chifneys. I always wonder if you'd do the same with a dog or other animal. Yes, I know a horse is a big and dangerous animal, but I don't believe this is an excuse to inflict pain. 

I find Duallys awkward and cumbersome, and the pull comes from the wrong direction. A plain western rope halter (non tightening and correctly fitted)) is much more effective and so much easier to use. A long rope with some weight to it - at least 12 feet long - makes for much safer handling. Leading off a bridle seems crazy to me - the horse only has to turn to face you and pull back, and you have nothing. I've seen this with my own eyes at every fun ride I've ever been to (ok that's an exageration!) - but the number of people I've seen hauled down ramps and then wondering why their horse is now tanking off between the horseboxes...wearing a bridle.. Forgive me for wanting no part of that.

OP, you are in trouble because this horse has got away from you twice now, and yes, you need to toughen up, but by being prepared, setting yourself up to succeed, pre-planning...I don't think the vet is going to come up with a magic and instant cure, and I don't believe that shutting the horse in a stable for several days will help the situation in any way - far from it. It's not just a short term solution you need, you have to take back control of your horse properly - but by using your big human brain and the laws of physics rather than by brute force and dominance. You CAN hold onto a horse that is tanking off, but it's not easy and you have to be wearing grippy gloves, a hat, good grippy boots, the right rope/halter, and be on a decent surface. Mud won't work. But far better to not let it get that far. Good luck OP.
		
Click to expand...

Agree with this but would add a knot at the end of the lead rope. This really helps if they try to get away from you. And yes, a plain rope halter is far more effective than a dually.


----------



## Ambers Echo (14 December 2017)

Landcruiser said:



			I'm saddened by the number of people giving advice to yank on a horse's mouth or nose and inflict pain (and potentially damage) by using bits, chains and chifneys. 
.
		
Click to expand...

As far as I see it, the pain is self inflicted - walk nicely and there is no pressure, lag behind or pull ahead and there is a small amount of 'no that's not what I want' pressure. Try to bog off and there is a TONNE of pressure.  Horse chooses how it's going to go, not human. My preference is always for as little as possible but not at the expense of being effective. 

There is also a difference between safe management of a dangerous problem RIGHT NOW and training a horse out of that problem in the longer term.

OP you've had lots of advice - so you need to decide what sounds achievable for you and stick with one approach consistently. And you need to think in 2 stages: safety NOW and manners in the future. I echo the advice to get a professional trainer in - mainly because no matter what tool or technique you use, the crucial elements are timing, feel and confidence - which you can only get through one to one advice if it does not come naturally to you. As to how people learn - they learn like you are now. Through fixing problems and being out of their depth, taking advice and working through solutions!

I don't really know what people mean by natural horsemanship - it's a meaningless term as far as I can tell meaning anything from traditional cowboy approaches like that of Ray Hunt/Buck Brannamman (who are far from 'fluffy bunnies' or new age) to people who go bitless and are unshod to people who use PNH and a whole load of other stuff all under the NH banner. So I'd ignore all labels and just use a trainer who is recommended by someone you trust.


----------



## southerncomfort (14 December 2017)

It does sound like this relationship has gone a bit wrong somewhere along the line and your horse now does what he wants when he wants.

I genuinely think you need to take a more holistic view of what's going on here.  The problem isn't that he is getting away from you and tanking off up to the yard, the problem is that you don't know how to handle him and he doesn't have much respect for you.

Sometimes you just need to swallow your pride and ask for help.  Their are plenty of excellent horse trainers who specialise in behavioural problems out there who would be able to help you work with your horse and get this partnership back on the right track.

Groundwork is going to be key here, and a good trainer will be able to show you some simple exercises to get him listening to you.


----------



## paddy555 (14 December 2017)

Hallo2012 said:



			i do find it a bit worrying that so far in about 2 days of forum life we have one horse that cant be led down the road for a mere 20 mins, one that wont come in from the field without decking its owner, and now advice from someone with a horse that wont stand for 5 seconds to be tied up and has to have a rope waiting?!
		
Click to expand...

I agree. It is depressing as is some of the attitudes to horses. Landcruiser's post says it all to me. 
 To redress the balance I led my horses out their fields this morning successfully and will  bring them in equally successfully tonight. Lots of mud BTW. 
I don't use a headcollar, too time consuming to  put on. I put rope round their necks and lead them that way except for the ones I just lead by their neck covers. They are trained to follow my body language ie I stop and they stop. I read them and they read me. We bond with each other and hopefully they do like me at least if not love me. That is  how I trained them to lead. They do that off a headcollar, a rope round their necks, nothing on their heads and a schooling whip and finally nothing at all. Perhaps my hand on their neck as they like that. I don't even own a chiffney or stallion chain. I would simply use a rope halter and 12 ft rope. 

If I had your horse to work on HK that is the sort of training I would be doing to start with to regain the balance. (in an enclosed area) Very slowly and very back to basics.


----------



## ihatework (14 December 2017)

paddy555 said:



			I agree. It is depressing as is some of the attitudes to horses. Landcruiser's post says it all to me. 
 To redress the balance I led my horses out their fields this morning successfully and will  bring them in equally successfully tonight. Lots of mud BTW. 
I don't use a headcollar, too time consuming to  put on. I put rope round their necks and lead them that way except for the ones I just lead by their neck covers. They are trained to follow my body language ie I stop and they stop. I read them and they read me. We bond with each other and hopefully they do like me at least if not love me. That is  how I trained them to lead. They do that off a headcollar, a rope round their necks, nothing on their heads and a schooling whip and finally nothing at all. Perhaps my hand on their neck as they like that. I don't even own a chiffney or stallion chain. I would simply use a rope halter and 12 ft rope. 

If I had your horse to work on HK that is the sort of training I would be doing to start with to regain the balance. (in an enclosed area) Very slowly and very back to basics.
		
Click to expand...

Maybe some of the posters have seen the aftermath of what happens when a rude horse and novice owner mix? Safety first, and if that takes a bit of tough love then that is fine in my book. This kind of behaviour can escalate quickly and last thing the OP needs is a hoof in the face. Everyone is saying she also needs to train the underlying issue long term.

And for the record I own a stallion chain and chiffney. They are both at the bottom of a storage box and havent seen daylight in years but I wouldnt hesitate to dig them out if I ran into a problem. Last time I used the chain it was on a 2yo that started running you down. It wore the chain twice and never tried the trick again - good job really as it ended up 17hh plus.

I cant even remember the last time I used a bridle to lead in normal circumstances. 
Only manouvering a 17.2hh horse to/from trot up and back from xc at Burghley - but thats kind of understandable


----------



## Ambers Echo (14 December 2017)

paddy555 said:



			If I had your horse to work on HK that is the sort of training I would be doing to start with to regain the balance. (in an enclosed area) Very slowly and very back to basics.
		
Click to expand...

And in the meantime......???

There is a difference between training a horse to be light, soft, responsive, trusting, respectful etc over time and addressing an unruly rude and dangerous behaviour in the here and now.

I went to a Buck Brannaman clinic in June and a Mark Rashid clinic a few years ago. Both horsemen have horses who are as you describe above - extremely well trained and responsive to the slightest cues which are virtually invisible. But it was eye opening to watch them deal with unruly horses in the moment. Mark looked like he punched a pony in the face  - actually the pony threw its head into Mark's closed fist. Mark did not yield so the horse punched himself really - as he would if he used his head as a weapon against a tree. It would hardly be the trees responsibility! Buck had to deal with a dangerous fell pony who kept rearing when being led. He put the pony on the floor when it tried to rear over the top of him. People were leaving the event and there was a big hoo-ha on social media afterwards. He said he simply never has these problems with his own horses because they are trained correctly from the start. But the OP is in the situation  she is in and she has to deal with it. And now that the horse has learnt he can overpower her, then all the body language in the world is not going to fix that until she has his attention again.


----------



## Polos Mum (14 December 2017)

I can't work out how to post photos but my 4 all get led in and out together - 4 at a time (people are horrified when the see it first time).  The know the order in which they come out of their stables, and that they go and 'collect' the others before going to the field. I put friends next to each other and the annoying one on his own on one side. 
They go in the gate and walk around behind it so I can shut it, then they all wait patiently for headcollars to come off in turn. 
They are amazing animals and will learn to do amazing things - but it takes time and knowledge.  Mine will follow this routine with my non horsey OH without incident. He doesn't understand why anyone wastes time leading one at a time (until we acquired a colt who'd never been led!) 

Polo players who ride one and lead two are another good example, they have full control of 3 horses even in canter.


----------



## MotherOfChickens (14 December 2017)

paddy555 said:



			I agree. It is depressing as is some of the attitudes to horses. Landcruiser's post says it all to me. 
 To redress the balance I led my horses out their fields this morning successfully and will  bring them in equally successfully tonight. Lots of mud BTW. 
I don't use a headcollar, too time consuming to  put on. I put rope round their necks and lead them that way except for the ones I just lead by their neck covers. They are trained to follow my body language ie I stop and they stop. I read them and they read me. We bond with each other and hopefully they do like me at least if not love me. That is  how I trained them to lead. They do that off a headcollar, a rope round their necks, nothing on their heads and a schooling whip and finally nothing at all. Perhaps my hand on their neck as they like that. I don't even own a chiffney or stallion chain. I would simply use a rope halter and 12 ft rope. 

If I had your horse to work on HK that is the sort of training I would be doing to start with to regain the balance. (in an enclosed area) Very slowly and very back to basics.
		
Click to expand...


yes, thats all lovely-mine also lead very well in a standard head collar (I loathe rope halters and see no use for them, I would never use a dually or a be nice either) but some horses do not and as the OP states, she needs something that will work tonight. I don't own a chifney or a stallion chain (but have worked in yards whereby bringing a horse out of a ox without one would earn you a rollicking) but I do have bridles for leading on roads or for emergencies when I am travelling. sometimes defensive riding or handling is safer than having  a loose horse charging about in the dark.


----------



## debsflo (14 December 2017)

Without going on a bit ,are you also checking this horse for pain re ulcers.
 My mare was reacting to turning going through gates due to ulcers and running to get away from pain.
Im all for staying safe but you need to find the root cause of this behaviour too.


----------



## stormox (14 December 2017)

Horsekaren said:



			I posted a few days ago about my horse pulling off and charging about the edge of the paddocks for a good hour! I knew it would have had an effect! Tonight he bolted back to his stable in the dark over taking another horse and causing a big fuss &#128555;

I lead him in dually with 10ft rope, he was walking to quick I asked him to slow down, asked again, he did for a second then went nope I'm off strait into canter, rope slipped out my hand and he was gone.

Advice again please -
If I use a lunge line can this be dangerous if he gets away?
If I try bridle and ten foot rope and he try's and loses me is it dangerous for him to be running about incase he treads on the rope?
Is there a stronger head collar than a dually? Are be nice ones better?

I know I can't win again his stregnth but I need to have the best chance to stop this. 
I know once he has walked nicely for a week we will be back to where he was.
I can't even take him back to try and correct him as it's pitch black hence I don't want this happening  

He is likely suffering from ulcers which we are about to confirm but that is no excuse for this type of behaviour is it? 

Needless to say I went home , pushed my dinner around my plate and felt sick worrying about having to do it all over again tomorrow 

Click to expand...

People the last time you posted advised you to use a bridle to lead. You took no notice and lead him in a headcollar again (a dually). 
If you arent going to take the advice of more experienced handlers on the forum I suggest you pay a professional to help you. Maybe you will listen to their suggestions if you are paying.


----------



## BBP (14 December 2017)

Hallo2012 said:



			i do find it a bit worrying that so far in about 2 days of forum life we have one horse that cant be led down the road for a mere 20 mins, one that wont come in from the field without decking its owner, and now advice from someone with a horse that wont stand for 5 seconds to be tied up and has to have a rope waiting?!
		
Click to expand...

This is 3 horses out of tens of thousands in the UK, and at least their owners are acknowledging the issue. We werent all born as supreme beings who can instantly conquer every issue, some of us have to learn as we go, and we make mistakes along the way. This poor lady has a doing her best and Im sure will take on board the advice, and in 10 years time will be the one giving out advice to another novice owner who has hit a bump. OP, I cant add to whats already been said, but as the less than perfect owner of a less than perfect horse I wanted to add some moral support. 

(To add, when I worked as a pro groom for Mark Todd and the lady who has just won puhunui 3*, we had horses who reared, one who at the start of every season when being brought back into work would tank off on the lunge and leave you for dust, one who wouldnt tie to the lorry and would pull back every other minute, several who needed a chifney now and again, the list goes on. They werent feral yobs but they were strong minded high powered horses, and needed you to be on your game all the time. Some issues were resolved with time, others were more ingrained. So dont go thinking its just novices who have challenges like this...the pros just dont post on forums!)


----------



## JFTDWS (14 December 2017)

Polos Mum said:



			Polo players who ride one and lead two are another good example, they have full control of 3 horses even in canter.
		
Click to expand...

That's if they're hungover and need a quiet ride.  On a good day, there might be 5 under the control of one rider


----------



## Adonissaan (14 December 2017)

Just to clarify mine own use of a chain for everyone - I would never hurt any animal. A small amount of pressure is enough to let him know it's there and then release. It keeps both him and I safe and he minds his manners.


----------



## Adonissaan (14 December 2017)

KatPT said:



			This is 3 horses out of tens of thousands in the UK, and at least their owners are acknowledging the issue. We weren&#8217;t all born as supreme beings who can instantly conquer every issue, some of us have to learn as we go, and we make mistakes along the way. This poor lady has a doing her best and I&#8217;m sure will take on board the advice, and in 10 years time will be the one giving out advice to another novice owner who has hit a bump. OP, I can&#8217;t add to what&#8217;s already been said, but as the less than perfect owner of a less than perfect horse I wanted to add some moral support. 

(To add, when I worked as a pro groom for Mark Todd and the lady who has just won puhunui 3*, we had horses who reared, one who at the start of every season when being brought back into work would tank off on the lunge and leave you for dust, one who wouldn&#8217;t tie to the lorry and would pull back every other minute, several who needed a chifney now and again, the list goes on. They weren&#8217;t feral yobs but they were strong minded high powered horses, and needed you to be on your game all the time. Some issues were resolved with time, others were more ingrained. So don&#8217;t go thinking it&#8217;s just novices who have challenges like this...the pros just don&#8217;t post on forums!)
		
Click to expand...

Thank you for this KatPT


----------



## Ambers Echo (14 December 2017)

stormox said:



			People the last time you posted advised you to use a bridle to lead. You took no notice and lead him in a headcollar again (a dually). 
If you arent going to take the advice of more experienced handlers on the forum I suggest you pay a professional to help you. Maybe you will listen to their suggestions if you are paying.
		
Click to expand...

OP's had  about 50 bits of differing advice including NOT to use a bridle! Good luck OP in following it all 

And she is using a professional - he or she is coming at the weekend.

Chin up OP - you are trying your best and I hope you are finding some of the advice useful. I have seen very experienced riders and handlers come a cropper. Happens to us all. Main thing is you are not just shrugging and blaming the horse. You are accepting the need for change and getting advice. x


----------



## Cecile (14 December 2017)

debsflo said:



			Without going on a bit ,are you also checking this horse for pain re ulcers.
 My mare was reacting to turning going through gates due to ulcers and running to get away from pain.
Im all for staying safe but you need to find the root cause of this behaviour too.
		
Click to expand...

I maybe totally wrong but I believe only a few days ago this owner posted on here and was told to go buy Succeed to give to this horse as apparently it was in so much pain when she posted as it wasn't laying down, it was falling backwards or not getting enough sleep,
which I believe she immediately purchased the Succeed, I believe she is also waiting on some further blood results

I may have the wrong OP and horse


----------



## MotherOfChickens (14 December 2017)

KatPT said:



			So don&#8217;t go thinking it&#8217;s just novices who have challenges like this...the pros just don&#8217;t post on forums!)
		
Click to expand...

yep, this! 

I also think, as previously suggested, that if you can afford it OP a stint in a good, professionally run livery yard with the horse on FL or at least FL during the week would be beneficial for you and the horse. If you can find one where they have experienced staff, with people out regularly competing/learning rather than one with a load of teenage girls working at it that is. might seem expensive but you could gain a lot from the right yard.


----------



## LaurenBay (14 December 2017)

Lead him in a bridle at all times. Get an instructor to help you install some manners into him before he turns into a proper thug.


----------



## Hallo2012 (14 December 2017)

KatPT said:



			This is 3 horses out of tens of thousands in the UK, and at least their owners are acknowledging the issue. We weren&#8217;t all born as supreme beings who can instantly conquer every issue, some of us have to learn as we go, and we make mistakes along the way. This poor lady has a doing her best and I&#8217;m sure will take on board the advice, and in 10 years time will be the one giving out advice to another novice owner who has hit a bump. OP, I can&#8217;t add to what&#8217;s already been said, but as the less than perfect owner of a less than perfect horse I wanted to add some moral support. 

(To add, when I worked as a pro groom for Mark Todd and the lady who has just won puhunui 3*, we had horses who reared, one who at the start of every season when being brought back into work would tank off on the lunge and leave you for dust, one who wouldn&#8217;t tie to the lorry and would pull back every other minute, several who needed a chifney now and again, the list goes on. They weren&#8217;t feral yobs but they were strong minded high powered horses, and needed you to be on your game all the time. Some issues were resolved with time, others were more ingrained. So don&#8217;t go thinking it&#8217;s just novices who have challenges like this...the pros just don&#8217;t post on forums!)
		
Click to expand...

i appreciate all that and having also worked on yards with SJ horses incl youngsters, stallions and youngstock i KNOW it does not always go to plan however these are pretty basic issues, leading and tying up, and are not horses in the thick of a competition car park or coming back in to work where you could be forgiven for almost expecting some high jinks.
these are leisure horses, being asked to walk in from the field and stand still when tied on their own yard.................not hard.

i am all about being on your game and maybe thats why mine dont give me this aggro...................perhaps if more people got mown down by above mentioned high powered idiotic horses, then ripped a new one by the rider, they would learn to be on their game!!!!!!

i guess my observation was a double edged observation-that SO many horses are SO rude and that SO many people dont just have the common sense to man up a bit and have to ask how to tell the horses no effectively?


----------



## BBP (14 December 2017)

Hallo2012 said:



			i appreciate all that and having also worked on yards with SJ horses incl youngsters, stallions and youngstock i KNOW it does not always go to plan however these are pretty basic issues, leading and tying up, and are not horses in the thick of a competition car park or coming back in to work where you could be forgiven for almost expecting some high jinks.
these are leisure horses, being asked to walk in from the field and stand still when tied on their own yard.................not hard.

i am all about being on your game and maybe thats why mine dont give me this aggro...................perhaps if more people got mown down by above mentioned high powered idiotic horses, then ripped a new one by the rider, they would learn to be on their game!!!!!!

i guess my observation was a double edged observation-that SO many horses are SO rude and that SO many people dont just have the common sense to man up a bit and have to ask how to tell the horses no effectively?
		
Click to expand...

I get your point (although I dont think competition horses have any more excuse for bad manners than a leisure horse, and not about getting ripped a new one by the rider as the horses were just the same for the rider!) these are basic manners for every horse. My post was more aimed at OP rather than you or the other experienced folk on here, not trying to teach you to suck eggs! I guess I would just rather people come on here and posted about even the most basic advice than struggled along alone because they feel like they will be belitted or judged for asking for help. Yes its best to get someone there in person to help, but often a post on the forum is what helps people form that conclusion.


----------



## Auslander (14 December 2017)

I think it's very easy for those of us who have been there and go the tshirt (or who maybe haven't, but think they know everything anyway!) to be either dismissive, or unkind about this sort of issue. We were all there once, and we got through it and came out the other side. The OP is doing her best, and is really good at taking advice, even when it's not phrased in the kindest of ways. Cut the poor girl a bit of slack - at least she's acknowledged that she has a problem, and is trying to fix it.

OP - despite what I said last night about being good at anchoring naughty ones, one of mine pulled away from me this morning while I was turning him out. I was ignoring the fact that he was feeling a bit feisty when I got him out of the box, and I didn't take my own advice about anchoring him. He spooked, ran past me, and then kept going, and I let go! **** happens!


----------



## milliepops (14 December 2017)

yup Aus well said  I have some epic pulling-away battles even fairly recently (mentioning no names, Kira-bulldozer...:rolleyes3 etched into my memory!  We've all been there, anyone who handles a lot of horses over the years will come across these problems now and then and we will all get it wrong sometimes.

I had to turn back with a well mannered one today and go back to put a bridle on to turn out, she was suddenly 18 hands and breathing fire and I didn't fancy my chances in a headcollar


----------



## Rowreach (14 December 2017)

milliepops said:



			yup Aus well said  I have some epic pulling-away battles even fairly recently (mentioning no names, Kira-bulldozer...:rolleyes3 etched into my memory!  We've all been there, anyone who handles a lot of horses over the years will come across these problems now and then and we will all get it wrong sometimes.

I had to turn back with a well mannered one today and go back to put a bridle on to turn out, she was suddenly 18 hands and breathing fire and I didn't fancy my chances in a headcollar 

Click to expand...

Speaking as one currently under the influence of a lot of Nurofen, and still picking mud out of my ears, I agree with you and Aus - any of us can fall victim to the horse that suddenly does something unexpected!  The difference is that you, me, Aus and any number of other posters will dust ourselves off and deal with the situation to make sure that it doesn't repeat itself in the near future at least (until the next time).  People like the OP however do not have the tools in the box (yet) to know what to do in the moment (or the next moment/day after).

I'm glad the OP is asking for help, but I do wonder if this forum is actually the right place, as the advice is quite varied.  Just find one person, who you trust, and get the problem sorted straight away.  And then get some joint training, you and the horse together.


----------



## paddy555 (14 December 2017)

Ambers Echo said:



			And in the meantime......???

There is a difference between training a horse to be light, soft, responsive, trusting, respectful etc over time and addressing an unruly rude and dangerous behaviour in the here and now.
		
Click to expand...


and in the meantime you have a novice with a strong horse (and no one physically dominates half a ton of horse) who is being advised to use every device possible on it's head. Give it a few yanks, really stand up to the horse. Won't be long before you have a headshy horse to deal with as well. It will still be a disrespectful horse. Use force and you get force back. What then? That might work for an experienced person to give a short sharp lessen that they can time perfectly and they know will work but hardly for this lady. Not only might it not work it could well make the problem worse. 

  So in the meantime I would be working to teach it to listen, focus on me and work with me which would not take that much time.  Very little in fact. I would start by walking up to the stable door. Does it back as i try to go in? or at least if I say back. If not we would start there. Next would be a rope halter and schooling whip (to guide not smack) in the stable to teach walk, back, hindquarters over, forehand over etc. Once that can be done move out to an enclosed space in the yard and repeat till horse starts looking and listening and owner gets a lot more confidence. Not really time consuming or rocket science. 
If possible get someone to video you handling the horse KP. Then you can play back slowly and see the horse's reaction and exactly where your cues are going wrong and what you could have done.


----------



## paddy555 (14 December 2017)

Wagtail said:



			Agree with this but would add a knot at the end of the lead rope. This really helps if they try to get away from you. And yes, a plain rope halter is far more effective than a dually.
		
Click to expand...

I see your point but I am in 2 minds about it. If the horse gets loose with the rope attached I would rather it could slide around it's legs and wonder if the knot would make it tangle and not come undone.


----------



## AnShanDan (14 December 2017)

paddy555 said:



			and in the meantime you have a novice with a strong horse (and no one physically dominates half a ton of horse) who is being advised to use every device possible on it's head. Give it a few yanks, really stand up to the horse. Won't be long before you have a headshy horse to deal with as well. It will still be a disrespectful horse. Use force and you get force back. What then? That might work for an experienced person to give a short sharp lessen that they can time perfectly and they know will work but hardly for this lady. Not only might it not work it could well make the problem worse. 

  So in the meantime I would be working to teach it to listen, focus on me and work with me which would not take that much time.  Very little in fact. I would start by walking up to the stable door. Does it back as i try to go in? or at least if I say back. If not we would start there. Next would be a rope halter and schooling whip (to guide not smack) in the stable to teach walk, back, hindquarters over, forehand over etc. Once that can be done move out to an enclosed space in the yard and repeat till horse starts looking and listening and owner gets a lot more confidence. Not really time consuming or rocket science. 
If possible get someone to video you handling the horse KP. Then you can play back slowly and see the horse's reaction and exactly where your cues are going wrong and what you could have done.
		
Click to expand...

Have to say I agree with this, it's all about body language, those of us who are old enough/been around horses since we were kids have developed our handling skills over decades and that allows you to nip the type of behaviour the OP's horse is displaying before it escalates. I do a lot of ground work with a rope halter and it's very, very effective. 

This morning our yards were really icy after some overnight rain on the frozen ground, so I got out the rope halter for a couple of the younger horses just to remind them that they had to listen to me and not demonstrate their skating skills!!


----------



## Orangehorse (14 December 2017)

Trouble is, once a horse or pony has learned that they are stronger than you and can get away they are already ahead of the game, so there comes a time where it is important for safety reasons to be in control, even if being stronger is necessary.

We had a pony that had learned that if she put her head down and took off there was nothing the human could do and I well remember seeing her galloping round the field instead of loading on the trailer.  One thing, you always have more control if the lead rope is clipped to the side of the headcollar, not underneath because once the horse gets in front of you, you are lost and they can pull harder than you can.

Agree with all the points really.  Just sometimes a horse has learned bad behaviour and all the owner can do is be aware and live with it, not every bad habit can be eradicated.  It is obviously better if they are all well mannered, but sometimes they aren't!


----------



## stormox (14 December 2017)

paddy555 said:



			and in the meantime you have a novice with a strong horse (and no one physically dominates half a ton of horse) who is being advised to use every device possible on it's head. Give it a few yanks, really stand up to the horse. Won't be long before you have a headshy horse to deal with as well. It will still be a disrespectful horse. Use force and you get force back. What then? That might work for an experienced person to give a short sharp lessen that they can time perfectly and they know will work but hardly for this lady. Not only might it not work it could well make the problem worse. 

  So in the meantime I would be working to teach it to listen, focus on me and work with me which would not take that much time.  Very little in fact. I would start by walking up to the stable door. Does it back as i try to go in? or at least if I say back. If not we would start there. Next would be a rope halter and schooling whip (to guide not smack) in the stable to teach walk, back, hindquarters over, forehand over etc. Once that can be done move out to an enclosed space in the yard and repeat till horse starts looking and listening and owner gets a lot more confidence. Not really time consuming or rocket science. 
If possible get someone to video you handling the horse KP. Then you can play back slowly and see the horse's reaction and exactly where your cues are going wrong and what you could have done.
		
Click to expand...

Another thing to note is it important to know where to stand in relation to the horse. Whatever you have on its head, you cannot stop a  barging and charging horse from behind. If it gets its head straight it will just pull, or turn away, and you have no chance. Always be in a position to pull the horse sideways. Stand level with, or just in front of, its nose. 
We have a proverb here in Ireland- "an te nach bhfuil laidir is folair beidh glic' - he who isnt strong must be clever....


----------



## Horsekaren (14 December 2017)

Cecile said:



			I maybe totally wrong but I believe only a few days ago this owner posted on here and was told to go buy Succeed to give to this horse as apparently it was in so much pain when she posted as it wasn't laying down, it was falling backwards or not getting enough sleep,
which I believe she immediately purchased the Succeed, I believe she is also waiting on some further blood results

I may have the wrong OP and horse
		
Click to expand...

you are correct, succeed has arrived today, called the vet 4 times yesterday, was told i would get a call back yesterday. no call back, both vets are off today!!! fuming to say the least!!! 

Horse has started to lay down since adding chipping back to the bed. Now he is barging off, i know my boy isn't comfortable,  i am a day delayed with the bloody vet but this barging off is not acceptable, i don't mind a swish of the tale rugging but charging off isn't on. 


Cant thank everyone enough for the tips, bridle, whip, hat, body protector and elbows tonight. 
Be nice ordered (i know mixed reviews but i want it at the ready if it turns out to be the way forward for the time being).


----------



## Pinkvboots (14 December 2017)

thing is horses are clever they can suss out someone who is maybe not the most experienced some take advantage of that and some just don't,  prime example is my horses bring themselves in the field gate is 3 steps from the stable doors I just open the gate and they put themselves in no problem, one of the girls that rides with me let them in ls week and the 2 of them ended up in one stable they have never ever done it before, and if my oh gets them in they go for a trot round the yard then on the drive eat a few plants then eventually decide to go in, it's like they just know they can get away with it so they think hey ho let's have a little play.

neither of my horses are difficult to handle or lead but they can spot an opportunity to be a bit naughty they just do and I think most horses are the same.

thing is everyone has to learn and you only do that with handling different horses it's the experience and your attitude that will make you competent around them, at the end of the day they are big powerful animals you don't need to be cruel just firm and have your wits about you.


----------



## Sugar_and_Spice (14 December 2017)

2 things OP:

1. leading in a bridle works for this horse, it's what the previous owners did to solve the problem.  Leading in a bridle forever more is *not* a failure, it's a means of staying safe.  There's no need to "give him a chance to do the right thing first" (something many people have said to me regarding leading their difficult horses in a headcollar, when I've asked why they don't use a bridle), it's not cruel to lead in a bridle/chain/whatever and if he's walking nicely at your side nothing that's on his head will be having any effect.  Had you been leading him in a bridle since the day you bought him, you'd have had the necessary tools at your disposal when you needed them, the first time he tried to tank off he'd have been unsuccessful, and you wouldn't have had the problems you're experiencing now.

2. the horse probably has ulcers, which have recently worsened and the pain has made him more difficult to handle than usual.  If you are going to persist in trying to lead him in some sort of headcollar, I'd watch him like a hawk on a daily basis for anything that could indicate the possibility of him becoming difficult that day, eg pain/discomfort, less turnout/work than usual, a bad/impatient mood (either of you), and be prepared to revert to leading in a bridle if there is *any* possibility that he *might* have cause to think of tanking off that day.  

One of the reasons experienced horse people don't have these problems is because they prevent them occurring in the first place.  Let's face it, I doubt you feel like going through this sort of thing again with another horse any time soon, do you? If you're wise you'd be quicker to change things next time you come across an unruly thug.  You'll fix this problem you're having too, with the right help and attitude.  Don't despair.


----------



## oldie48 (14 December 2017)

Horsekaren said:



			you are correct, succeed has arrived today, called the vet 4 times yesterday, was told i would get a call back yesterday. no call back, both vets are off today!!! fuming to say the least!!! 

Horse has started to lay down since adding chipping back to the bed. Now he is barging off, i know my boy isn't comfortable,  i am a day delayed with the bloody vet but this barging off is not acceptable, i don't mind a swish of the tale rugging but charging off isn't on. 


Cant thank everyone enough for the tips, bridle, whip, hat, body protector and elbows tonight. 
Be nice ordered (i know mixed reviews but i want it at the ready if it turns out to be the way forward for the time being).
		
Click to expand...

I came to riding and horse ownership very late in life so feel your pain, it is a very steep learning curve. I was extremely fortunate in that my first horse was a complete saint except she wouldn't load (but that's another story). My second horse had some issues, fantastic in company but a complete nightmare on his own both to ride and handle. He clearly had some separation issues when I bought him but I undoubtably made him a good deal worse and we were on a downward spiral until I made the sensible decision to sell him. He went to someone more experienced than me and he was kept on a busy professional yard rather than a small private yard, and he thrived. When we are relatively inexperienced we need the "right" horse, one that is a bit forgiving of our mistakes, we also need to have experienced people to help dig us out of the holes which show up in our lack of knowledge. I've read most of your posts and it's clear that you want to do the best for your horse but is he the "right horse" for you at your stage of experience? Just a thought and not a criticism, he just doesn't seem like much fun for you at the moment.


----------



## Ambers Echo (14 December 2017)

paddy555 said:



			So in the meantime I would be working to teach it to listen, focus on me and work with me which would not take that much time.  Very little in fact. I would start by walking up to the stable door. Does it back as i try to go in? or at least if I say back. If not we would start there. Next would be a rope halter and schooling whip (to guide not smack) in the stable to teach walk, back, hindquarters over, forehand over etc. Once that can be done move out to an enclosed space in the yard and repeat till horse starts looking and listening and owner gets a lot more confidence.
		
Click to expand...

These are all really useful things to do and I do them with all my horses. All of them back away in the stable, all yield to pressure in any direction with just a look or energy. But I am not sure that this always translates into 'respectful' behaviour on the ground. Not in my experience anyway. I don't think horses have a concept of 'respect'. They do understand boundaries but I think each set of boundaries needs to be taught in each specific context. I just don't think yielding readily to pressure in an enclosed space necessarily generalises to leading nicely when the horse has competing motivations and has not had the boundaries specifically enforced in that situation. Or in the OP's case has been successful in trashing boundaries. My daughter's old pony was a good example - he was totally perfect to handle - yielding, backing, listening - all very soft and attentive. Until you walked him past lush grass and he forgot all his manners and dragged my slight 11 yo daughter over to it. She was really consistent in how she handled him - lots of moving his feet around, loads of groundwork etc. But he still dragged her all over the place when grass was involved until we deliberately targeted grass. By that time he had learned he could drag her and he had been well rewarded for being bargy and rude so we needed to considerably up the pressure to teach him grass was off limits when being led. But once we had done that she could lead him through grass on a loose lead rope without him trying to have any. But I don;t think we could have got there with general groundwork. 

Maybe polite behaviour generalises for some horses from one situation to another but not for all. And it sounds  like the OP did lots and lots of work on general manners when being led anyway. What is lacking is the ability to say NO effectively when the horse ignores what he knows.

I think most people are telling the OP she has to work on the longer term too - but staying safe in the meantime is the crucial issue. And I personally would not trust a horse who has behaved as this horse has when being led in from the field, no matter how polite he is in other situations.


----------



## Identityincrisis (14 December 2017)

I have to agree with the posters who have advised you to take a step back with the 'relationship' you have with your horse. My horse was dreadful when I got him, I had to wear a hat & body protector to catch him in his stable! Leading him was a nightmare. Everyone was scared of him, myself included in the end! But a super experienced friend (I have 30 years experience myself!) came along and told me to stop treating him like my best friend, and to use a chifney. The transformation was far from instant BUT those two bits of advice help the little seeds of confidence grow which is a great help in itself. 

3 years on I can lead him in a headcollar (although I ALWAYS have at least a bit in him, better to be prepared) while all the people at the yard who judged us still struggle with their badly mannered horses. Just last week a lady's horse bogged off (for the millionth time) and me and my boy stood very calmly while she tried to catch him


----------



## DD (14 December 2017)

meleeka said:



			Not an excuse to inflict pain but possibly a quick solution to a dangerous problem. In an ideal world the OP would have a nice mud free route to the field, all the time in the world to train the horse and of course, daylight. That isnt going to happen so she needs to take back control quickly and effectively now. I would never have chosen to inflict pain on my boy, its a horrible thought, but then I didnt, he inflicted it on himself when he went to bog off.  I had to hand walk him while on box rest with no facilities whatsoever so understandly when he got out of that stable he forgot his manners. I tried a bridle without success and resorted to a stallion chain. He only went to go once and the shock of it stopped him in his tracks. He was perfect after that and I was safe again.I wish Id done it straight away as it transpired hed re-injured himself during his airs above the ground so it all went on far longer than it should have.
		
Click to expand...

excellent post.


----------



## Horsekaren (14 December 2017)

oldie48 said:



			I came to riding and horse ownership very late in life so feel your pain, it is a very steep learning curve. I was extremely fortunate in that my first horse was a complete saint except she wouldn't load (but that's another story). My second horse had some issues, fantastic in company but a complete nightmare on his own both to ride and handle. He clearly had some separation issues when I bought him but I undoubtably made him a good deal worse and we were on a downward spiral until I made the sensible decision to sell him. He went to someone more experienced than me and he was kept on a busy professional yard rather than a small private yard, and he thrived. When we are relatively inexperienced we need the "right" horse, one that is a bit forgiving of our mistakes, we also need to have experienced people to help dig us out of the holes which show up in our lack of knowledge. I've read most of your posts and it's clear that you want to do the best for your horse but is he the "right horse" for you at your stage of experience? Just a thought and not a criticism, he just doesn't seem like much fun for you at the moment.
		
Click to expand...

At the moment no he isnt, two months ago he was!
Im not having any fun  i feel guilty working him if he has ulcers, he needs to be worked as he is a happy horse when worked at least 3 times a week. 
i know he is poorly and needs to be treated, 
i know he is taking the piss and being damn right rude... because of pain ? or lack of respect , bot i imagine. 
i wish i could have the horse back he was in summer, winter is not fun. 

but at the moment i have no choice, i cant sell him, who would buy a sick horse that is barging off? I have no where to turn i just need to try and get on top of it for his sake. 

He has gone from being a perfect pony, a pleasure to ride, to be around, to lead... everything about 2 months ago to a living nightmare


----------



## Pinkvboots (14 December 2017)

Horsekaren said:



			At the moment no he isnt, two months ago he was!
Im not having any fun  i feel guilty working him if he has ulcers, he needs to be worked as he is a happy horse when worked at least 3 times a week. 
i know he is poorly and needs to be treated, 
i know he is taking the piss and being damn right rude... because of pain ? or lack of respect , bot i imagine. 
i wish i could have the horse back he was in summer, winter is not fun. 

but at the moment i have no choice, i cant sell him, who would buy a sick horse that is barging off? I have no where to turn i just need to try and get on top of it for his sake. 

He has gone from being a perfect pony, a pleasure to ride, to be around, to lead... everything about 2 months ago to a living nightmare
		
Click to expand...

don't beat yourself up you can only do whatever you think is right chances are he does have ulcers it can really affect there behaviour, your going in the right direction once he starts treatment just give him the time off he needs the medication can take a few months to really work, hopefully this will all be a distant memory you can put down to experience and move on and start to enjoy your horse again.


----------



## debsflo (14 December 2017)

I don't believe his behaviour can or will improve until you sort his pain.
Get you're vet out again and explain it's an accident waiting to happen and start there imo.

I do feel for you.
Is he on a yard where you have any pros to support you.
I have had horses for years and am v knowledgeable but have my youngster at a yard for this very reason and to nip things in the bud and have help when needed.
When mine took off and jumped a fence she frightened me and pros helped me but supported me persisting with the vet and devising a plan.
My horse is now being treated and we are all happy again.


----------



## LaurenBay (14 December 2017)

Horsekaren said:



			At the moment no he isnt, two months ago he was!
Im not having any fun  i feel guilty working him if he has ulcers, he needs to be worked as he is a happy horse when worked at least 3 times a week. 
i know he is poorly and needs to be treated, 
i know he is taking the piss and being damn right rude... because of pain ? or lack of respect , bot i imagine. 
i wish i could have the horse back he was in summer, winter is not fun. 

but at the moment i have no choice, i cant sell him, who would buy a sick horse that is barging off? I have no where to turn i just need to try and get on top of it for his sake. 

He has gone from being a perfect pony, a pleasure to ride, to be around, to lead... everything about 2 months ago to a living nightmare
		
Click to expand...

Don't work him with the ulcers, it won't do either of you any good.

I have to say OP I would not be happy with your vet at all, If the Horse tested positive for ulcers a few days ago then treatment should've began then. My Horse went from being an angel for 5 years to making my life hell for a year, it turned out she was in pain (found out quite quick and spent the year trying various things) But I have got my girl back now (albeit she can't be ridden!) so get the vet ASAP to start treating the ulcers, Feed him hay before he goes out so he isn't too hungry to come in. I also read that his dinner is waiting in the stable for him? remove this. He does not get a reward for tanking off. Pop him in the stable for a good 15-20 mins before giving food. He will soon learn that food is not waiting for him. Then when you get on top of the pain, start riding again.


----------



## emfen1305 (14 December 2017)

Ambers Echo said:



			Maybe polite behaviour generalises for some horses from one situation to another but not for all. And it sounds  like the OP did lots and lots of work on general manners when being led anyway. What is lacking is the ability to say NO effectively when the horse ignores what he knows
		
Click to expand...

I agree with this, I have a very polite and well mannered cob, he deserves a knighthood and is practically a saint however the same saintly cob has to be led in a bridle if we go anywhere exciting. I have been dragged backwards off the horse box, been grass skiing and then the final straw was him standing on my head after a days hunting (luckily i had my hat on) and then I vowed never again (nothing more embarrassing than yours being the "LOOSE HORSE"). The adrenaline makes him lose all of his inhibitions and after trying once in a bridle, realised was no fun anymore and stopped. Tried back in a headcollar and same problem so now I stick with the bridle and he doesn't even try to pull, just goes back to the saintly cob so this is just what I do, it's kinder and safer for both of us and everyone else around! Pick your battles OP, if he leads politely in a bridle then just do that IMO!


----------



## oldie48 (14 December 2017)

Horsekaren said:



			At the moment no he isnt, two months ago he was!
Im not having any fun  i feel guilty working him if he has ulcers, he needs to be worked as he is a happy horse when worked at least 3 times a week. 
i know he is poorly and needs to be treated, 
i know he is taking the piss and being damn right rude... because of pain ? or lack of respect , bot i imagine. 
i wish i could have the horse back he was in summer, winter is not fun. 

but at the moment i have no choice, i cant sell him, who would buy a sick horse that is barging off? I have no where to turn i just need to try and get on top of it for his sake. 

He has gone from being a perfect pony, a pleasure to ride, to be around, to lead... everything about 2 months ago to a living nightmare
		
Click to expand...

I hope when you get his ulcers sorted that he will be well behaved again but I'd noticed from your posts that as far back as April you'd been having problems with him and that you said you were nervous of him and that you had difficulty leading him, hence my post.


----------



## Auslander (14 December 2017)

LaurenBay said:



			I have to say OP I would not be happy with your vet at all, If the Horse tested positive for ulcers a few days ago then treatment should've began then.
		
Click to expand...

The horse tested positive for hindgut ulcers, and needs a treatment which has to be ordered form the manufacturer. How is that the vets fault?


----------



## Cecile (14 December 2017)

Auslander said:



			The horse tested positive for hindgut ulcers, and needs a treatment which has to be ordered form the manufacturer. How is that the vets fault?
		
Click to expand...

I don't think the vet supplied anything for the ulcers so the OP bought it off shelf, there seem to be 2 grades of Succeed one you can buy off shelf and the other seems to be a slightly better vet grade.

I think the vet was holding off prescribing anything until all bloods were back, now the vet seems to having a day off and the OP was expecting the results either yesterday or today

Maybe the results came back good and the vet has put contacting the OP as none urgent.  My vet would contact me day off or not and will pop by on a Saturday if I need anything and is passing by other vets act differently


----------



## Wagtail (14 December 2017)

I do feel for the OP. It's no good people going on about how good their horses are and they can lead them out by a single strand of a spider's web etc. This is irrelevant to the OP's dilemma. Most horses, with skill, patience, experience and correct training can be trained to behave impeccably. Some horses just naturally behave impeccably, but there are a small proportion of horses that challenge even the most experienced and skilled horse person, let alone a novice. I have decades of experience and have cared for umpteen horses. However, one that comes to mind as behaving exactly like the OP's for his novice owners, was also a traditional cob gelding. People often get them because they think they will be quiet, and safe, when they can actually be extremely challenging if you get an assertive and clever one.


----------



## PapaverFollis (14 December 2017)

OP-try not to get too bogged down in "naughtiness", "disrespect" and "taking the piss" I find it all gets too emotional if you are thinking those terms. Keep it simple... he's doing something that works for him (gets him to his tea quicker by the sounds of it)... stop it working. Lots of practical advice given already on how you might go about doing that but that in essence is it. Stop the behaviour you don't want working for him.

He's also in pain which needs sorting asap but you're on to that apparently.  Itll be easier to sort out when you can work him. If he was being led in a bridle at his previous home it sounds like the bogging off behaviour may have been a successful strategy for him for a while (rather than 100% related to the pain), so it may take time to overcome but if a bridle works then just lead him in a bridle.


----------



## Templebar (14 December 2017)

Hi i haven't read everything so far but just wanted to add something quickly.

Is there anyway you can give him his feed once in the stable, i have known a couple of horses who when they learn that dinner is waiting in the stable become difficult to lead and try to charge off/tow you in to the stable, it's much better if he comes in and waits a bit, then sometimes he is worked and gets dinner other times he gets dinner, but i would bring in first do things you need to do and then feed. 

I agree that a lot of this is probably not being helped by ulcers if he has them and as i have followed the recent stuff you have put, i would be seeking another vet, an equine specialist if they are not already or a different vet/practice if they are, as they don't seem to be in any rush to help/treat at all.


----------



## Clodagh (14 December 2017)

I don't know if TheresaW has read this, or replied already, but I sold her a little **** of a pony who took off when he felt like it. I am experienced, and no walkover, and he had me face down in the muck a time or too. I don't know if he still does it but he knew that he was stronger than me and one moment of not paying attention and the litle booger was off.


----------



## Horsekaren (14 December 2017)

Cecile said:



			I don't think the vet supplied anything for the ulcers so the OP bought it off shelf, there seem to be 2 grades of Succeed one you can buy off shelf and the other seems to be a slightly better vet grade.

I think the vet was holding off prescribing anything until all bloods were back, now the vet seems to having a day off and the OP was expecting the results either yesterday or today

Maybe the results came back good and the vet has put contacting the OP as none urgent.  My vet would contact me day off or not and will pop by on a Saturday if I need anything and is passing by other vets act differently
		
Click to expand...

Off shelf succeed supliment started today, thanks for the shove , I'm sick of waiting around! Vet is going to get a stern call tomorrow. 
And he lead in lovely in his bridle a few reminders that I was setting the pace 
Yard owner happened to be there in the dark which is unusual meant to be. She walked back with us. Hopfully this is the start of the turn around! 

Thanks so much everyone ! 
All advice taken and mulled over all day! Felt a lot more secure with his bridle . 
Hopfully onwards and upwards &#128513;


----------



## WandaMare (14 December 2017)

Great news, well done OP


----------



## ycbm (14 December 2017)

At the risk of sounding completely patronising. Good girl!


----------



## Dave's Mam (14 December 2017)

Fab!  Well done.  Onwards & upwards!


----------



## Bertie Dugger (14 December 2017)

We bought a 20 yr old Shire/ID who topped 17.2 in height and width. He had 20 years of practise at being rude - he'd barge out of doors, trample you, pull away, shove you over. I was a 7 stone length of string at the time and I needed to get on top of his behaviour immediately. I wasn't nice to him and yes,  I hurt him a couple of times - a sharp slap across the chest with a schooling whip and an angry growl if he deemed it acceptable to shove through a half opened door with me behind it, and a hard sharp tug on a bit with a growl if he decided he wanted to try and pull away on his way in or out of the field/stable. He soon decided that perhaps it was in his best interests to be polite. My other horse often reprimanded him with an almighty bite or a kick so I figured that in comparison, my feeble attempts at control wouldn't make him cry too much. A horse can't be allowed to just walk all over you - they are too big and potentially too dangerous. He will respect you far more if you assume the role of his leader.


----------



## Pearlsasinger (14 December 2017)

Horsekaren said:



			Off shelf succeed supliment started today, thanks for the shove , I'm sick of waiting around! Vet is going to get a stern call tomorrow. 
And he lead in lovely in his bridle a few reminders that I was setting the pace 
Yard owner happened to be there in the dark which is unusual meant to be. She walked back with us. Hopfully this is the start of the turn around! 

Thanks so much everyone ! 
All advice taken and mulled over all day! Felt a lot more secure with his bridle . 
Hopfully onwards and upwards &#55357;&#56833;
		
Click to expand...

That's excellent!  The more using the bridle works, the more confidence you will get and the better you will feel about things.

Just for the record - 50+ yrs of horse-owning, in multiples, and we had a rodeo when I put our 3 out at lunchtime!


----------



## Pinkvboots (14 December 2017)

Well done I hope it continues


----------



## Chianti (14 December 2017)

I would put a bridle on him and have the pocket of my coat full of carrot slices and treats. Before you put the bridle give him a treat and make sure he knows there are others there. Give him treats at very frequent intervals as you're walking. I had one that could be very difficult to lead and this always helped to keep her attention on me. This will helpfully get you through the next few days until you get help. As they get better behaved you make the intervals between treats longer.


----------



## Amymay (14 December 2017)

Well done Op x


----------



## Xtra (14 December 2017)

I am not experienced enough to give good advice but I agree with the poster that said don't make it personal. it doesn't help.  I have had my mare 10 years and this summer she decided she was staying out. she has done this occasionally before but I usually win but this went on for months.  I believe somethinng was wrong initially then she found it was a good game.  I found a long rope and sending her away to "lunge" worked but she was trying to run into me to get away rather than dragging if that makes sense.  Its so hard to eliminate it all. good luck


----------



## Horsekaren (15 December 2017)

and another successful morning  

Trainer is coming tomorrow, i'm going to ask to work on manors, obviously we are having issues leading but i know if we just lead him to and from the field with new people he will just do as he is asked. I want to be ready with an idea of how to work on these issues as i don't want to waist the hour. What sort of ground work ideas would you expect to do to help tackle the issue?  i will obviously work with her suggestions but just want to have a few ideas of my own.

My boy hasnt been ridden or worked for 11 days now, i really do feel he would benefit from a good lunge to let off some steam and as a reminder that i am in charge. would this be acceptable for a horse that is suffering with gut issues/ ulcers? i would feed and hay before to stop the acid and would run him ragged, he runs about in the field so is it to different from that? WWYD?


----------



## DD (15 December 2017)

glad you've posted the update was thinking of you earlier when I was doing my horses. I'd give him some hay and let him have a blast. Do him the world of good and settle his mind. Well done so far x


----------



## AdorableAlice (15 December 2017)

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/foru...e-leaning-back-thinking-ulcers-3rd-post/page2

Is this the same horse.


----------



## LaurenBay (15 December 2017)

AdorableAlice said:



http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/foru...e-leaning-back-thinking-ulcers-3rd-post/page2

Is this the same horse.
		
Click to expand...

Yep. Horse has had several threads in the last few days.


----------



## Ladyinred (15 December 2017)

Auslander said:



			The horse tested positive for hindgut ulcers, and needs a treatment which has to be ordered form the manufacturer. How is that the vets fault?
		
Click to expand...

But if you read the other thread the horse didn't test positive for ulcers. <sigh> ever wonder why we bother with some of these threads


----------



## YorksG (15 December 2017)

If your vet is suggesting steroids for any length of time, for a largely undiagnosed condition, then they must think that you have VERY deep pockets! Your vet may have the horses best interests at heart, howevr they may also be taking your money for nothing. Given the cost of steroids and the possible side effects, they would not be my first line treatment for an indeterminate condition.


----------



## Tiddlypom (15 December 2017)

OP has been getting a lot of helpful advice on about leading her horse since her first post on HHO back in March.




			Hi,
I am really keen to hear some advice on how to cope with a horse that occasionally pulls away when being led. I have only had him for 2 weeks and he seems to be settling in well, he seems very gentle but he can be very strong and pull away when being led. 
I have been wrapping the rope of the head collar around his nose and that has helped, I walk at his shoulder and hold the rope under his chin which has also helped. 
I have purchased a Dually Head Collar for him but I am hoping to train this out of him. 
He seems to be more pully when there is another horse around being lead, at night I cannot leave the last horse in the field alone so ideally I need to be able to lead my horse and the other horse (who has impeccable ground manners) 


Do you have any advise or tips on how I can train this out of him? I am new to horse ownership and am nervous and every time he pulls away I feel my confidence hit the ground. He has so much potential and I really want to sort this issue out. He is an 8 Year old 16H cob. 


Thanks!!!!!
		
Click to expand...

ETA http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/foru...00-Horse-pulling-away&p=13503248#post13503248


----------



## stormox (15 December 2017)

Horsekaren said:



			and another successful morning  

Trainer is coming tomorrow, i'm going to ask to work on manors, obviously we are having issues leading but i know if we just lead him to and from the field with new people he will just do as he is asked. I want to be ready with an idea of how to work on these issues as i don't want to waist the hour. What sort of ground work ideas would you expect to do to help tackle the issue?  i will obviously work with her suggestions but just want to have a few ideas of my own.

 WWYD?
		
Click to expand...

If you are paying a professional instructor to come and help you with your horse I would just listen and do what they suggest. I dont think posting on a forum 'to  get some ideas of your own' is a good idea. Trust your trainer, or there really isnt much point in paying for one.


----------



## FestiveFuzz (16 December 2017)

Horsekaren said:



			My boy hasnt been ridden or worked for 11 days now, i really do feel he would benefit from a good lunge to let off some steam and as a reminder that i am in charge. would this be acceptable for a horse that is suffering with gut issues/ ulcers? i would feed and hay before to stop the acid and would run him ragged, he runs about in the field so is it to different from that? WWYD?
		
Click to expand...

I wouldn't run anything "ragged" on the lunge. There is a vast difference between having a hoon about the field and being kept on a circle whilst they have a funny 5, and IMO the pressure on the tendons and joints just isn't worth it. By all means have a lunging session, but I would go into it thinking lots of transitions to get the horse really listening rather than thinking "this'll teach him I'm in charge". Apologies as I've only been loosely following your threads but is there a reason why he's not being ridden at the moment? M has been treated for ulcers over the last few months and I don't think he's ever had time off during it as my vet felt it was important to keep his routine to avoid further stress (he is a fit competition horse though, so very much used to being worked most days). We just gave him bute and muscle relaxants at the start to help him relearn to use his back correctly whilst minimising any pain he was in and then my trainer helped rehab him to speed up the learning process. 



Chianti said:



			I would put a bridle on him and have the pocket of my coat full of carrot slices and treats. Before you put the bridle give him a treat and make sure he knows there are others there. Give him treats at very frequent intervals as you're walking. I had one that could be very difficult to lead and this always helped to keep her attention on me. This will helpfully get you through the next few days until you get help. As they get better behaved you make the intervals between treats longer.
		
Click to expand...

I'm not sure this is the best advice to give for an already bargy cob. I'd forget treats and just keep going with the bridle as this sounds like what he responds best to. 



stormox said:



			If you are paying a professional instructor to come and help you with your horse I would just listen and do what they suggest. I dont think posting on a forum 'to  get some ideas of your own' is a good idea. Trust your trainer, or there really isnt much point in paying for one.
		
Click to expand...

This 100%. You need to find professionals you trust and use them as your sounding board. They'll be much better placed to advise, having seen your horse on the ground. This forum is an invaluable source of advice, but nothing takes the place of eyes on the ground.


----------

