# Poo picking or harrowing?



## H's mum (11 May 2010)

Just wanting to pick people's brains - I'm due to have a baby shortly (within a few weeks) and due to being a bit off it this past few weeks I've not been able to poo pick - the field is looking in desperate need of it now - but I wondered if poo picking is the only option and what would be the benefits of harrowing it instead?
Thanks
Kate x


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## Angelbones (11 May 2010)

I don't know the rights of wrongs of harrowing instead of poo picking (perhaps I should!) but we only ever poo pick the little fenced off pens for eg the laminitic pony, and we harrow the rest of the land. We do this a couple of times over the summer, followed by rolling if we can get it done. Our horses are regularly properly wormed, and we have never had a problem with either the horses or the land (we have approx 7 horses on 20 acres at any one time). Congratulations on your imminent baby - I'm not surprised poo picking is beyond you!


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## racingdemon (11 May 2010)

Hi there! i feel your pain.... lol!!

as i am a very busy person & have too many horses & fields, we only harrow, and have never poo picked (other than the tiny pony paddocks), we rotate our fields alot, to ensure they get plenty of rest, and we harrow very regularly in the summer, each field is pretty big though, so its not like they are up to thier eyeballs in it, 

we also regularly top & roll each field, helps the grass to grow well, 

get some chain harrows

RD xxx


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## H's mum (11 May 2010)

Angelbones said:



			I don't know the rights of wrongs of harrowing instead of poo picking (perhaps I should!) but we only ever poo pick the little fenced off pens for eg the laminitic pony, and we harrow the rest of the land. We do this a couple of times over the summer, followed by rolling if we can get it done. Our horses are regularly properly wormed, and we have never had a problem with either the horses or the land (we have approx 7 horses on 20 acres at any one time). Congratulations on your imminent baby - I'm not surprised poo picking is beyond you!
		
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Thank you - I was doing quite well until a few weeks ago  and now it's gone a bit haywire! LOL!
Kate x


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## H's mum (11 May 2010)

racingdemon said:



			Hi there! i feel your pain.... lol!!

as i am a very busy person & have too many horses & fields, we only harrow, and have never poo picked (other than the tiny pony paddocks), we rotate our fields alot, to ensure they get plenty of rest, and we harrow very regularly in the summer, each field is pretty big though, so its not like they are up to thier eyeballs in it, 

we also regularly top & roll each field, helps the grass to grow well, 

get some chain harrows

RD xxx
		
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Hi RD! 
I'm pleased you've said this it's made me feel much better - Michael's just told me he has had a set of chain harrows made so i'll get him to go collect them this weekend and get Michael and Maxwell on the little tractor! 

I've kept up to it until now and tbh the thought of spending hours clearing the field when I've got millions of other things I need to sort out just depresses me!  Dyson has gone out onto the big field now onto the grass and it's only the ponies left (on winter-grazed grass - yet they still seem to be piling on weight.... joy!)  So I could do to fence of a bit for them and rest the remainder of the field... thanks for the advice! 
Kate xx


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## racingdemon (11 May 2010)

LOL! Fred STILL talks about maxwell & his tractor, boys and tractors!!


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## H's mum (11 May 2010)

Bless him! You'll have to come up again and he can join in with the harrowing! 
Kate x


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## Mananzwa (12 May 2010)

Personally against poo-picking.

I feel you are removing nutrients from the field, horse eats grass - dumps - you take it away = nutrients lost. The only way to return them is to respread the poo after composting or replace with artificial fertiliser. 

The arguement for PP is the regrowth in the immediate vicinity is not palatable, that is correct but is only for that period and is palatable a few months down the line. Secondly a build-up of parasites - again correct.

Harrowing spreads the poo so the unpalatability factor is taken away. This also helps for parasites as sunlight (when we get it) does desicate the eggs so spreading does help but is not the total cure. Rotating the grazing with at least 8 weeks gap also helps.

Essentially the choice is yours.

BTW - Congrats on the new rider....


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## MillionDollar (12 May 2010)

Harrowing is fine if your field is plenty big enough. I used to just harrow when I had 5 horses in a 10 acre field. Now my farm is a livery yard, they are all done with a vacuum machine once a week. The liveries have the choice to pay for this or they poo pick themselves as the paddocks are only 1 acre big, so it wouldn't take long to get covered in poo.


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## Halfstep (12 May 2010)

We harrow at our yard too.  It works when done properly and at the right time. it is best to do it when the ground isn't rock solid. If there is huge amounts of poo on the ground I will pick up as much as I can first.


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## spaniel (12 May 2010)

Unless you can guarantee weeks of blazing sunshine and months of rest for the grazing,  harrowing is generally not the best option for parasite control.  

However its not practical to poo pick large areas by hand (or if you are heavily pregnant!) so is a better option that leaving piles to fester.

Its not an ideal world so I would go for the chain harrow at the hottest driest time you can as i know you are well up on your worming and general care.  You get the added benefit from the harrow of general ground improvement as well so if you can get a roller on afterwards thats even better.


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## Mrs_Wishkabibble (12 May 2010)

I personally dont like harrowing, have tried it and for me I didnt like it!
I poo pick my fields and find my horses are very tidy and do it nearly all in 2 main places in every paddock in the fields, even new horses pick up very quickly where to poo somehow, must be the smell.

There is a field down the road from me that harrows theirs and their horses poo absolutely everywhere probably as the poo is dried out after harrowing and they can smell it on the grass so thats where they poo if that makes sense. 

I only have 3 horses though and have got the time.

I do think though that I have some sort of OCD with my paddocks, I like them to look nice and do top them to leave nice stripes on them!!


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## marmalade76 (12 May 2010)

We are similar to Racingdemon, we harrow, never poo pick. Our fields are large (3-6 acres) with no more than two horses in each. They are rotated and rested regularly. It's a small farm of 35 acres with only 7-8 horses and a few sheep. We have someone who grazes a few cattle on it after haymaking, great fertilizer and helps keep weeds and worms down.


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## leanne1988 (12 May 2010)

I always poo-pick, but then i have smaller paddocks rather than one huge field. I do also harrow, but i pick up the poo first. If u dont have enough time, can u get some child labour in, hehe.A son/daughter/cousin want to earn a few bob? send them upto the fields with wheelbarrow and poo-picker in tow, lol. Or if that fails, rope ur OH in!!!!


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## H's mum (12 May 2010)

Thanks everyone for your responses - I really appreciate them all (Spans I'm doing a sunshine dance as we speak!  LOL!)

I'll probably pick up the worst of it and then harrow - and then will keep up to the harrowing in future so that it doesn't become so bad again - could do with a spare pair of hands ideally - I've got the enthusiastic assistance of a 2yo but that still leaves me with the barrow shoving! LOL!

Ah well - hopefully in a few weeks I'll be back to my normal self - fingers TIGHTLY crossed! 
Kate x


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## brighteyes (13 May 2010)

*QR*

Horses poo in areas they then don't graze through preference.  Any poorly maintained horse pasture shows the characteristic 'roughs' and 'lawns'.  What I wonder is why. The grass there is lush and green; surely it must taste lovely?  I'm betting it's some inbuilt mechanism for remaining relatively parasite-free.  Studies have proved worm eggs and larvae can survive a much wider range of temperatures that previously thought, and I bet they too are evolving as climate changes.  I really have no idea why people think spreading horse droppings over the entire field is a good or even sensible idea!

I find poo-picking quite theraputic, but I have small paddocks that are carefully managed.


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## Cocoa (14 May 2010)

brighteyes said:



*QR*

Horses poo in areas they then don't graze through preference.  Any poorly maintained horse pasture shows the characteristic 'roughs' and 'lawns'.  What I wonder is why. The grass there is lush and green; surely it must taste lovely?  I'm betting it's some inbuilt mechanism for remaining relatively parasite-free.  Studies have proved worm eggs and larvae can survive a much wider range of temperatures that previously thought, and I bet they too are evolving as climate changes.  I really have no idea why people think spreading horse droppings over the entire field is a good or even sensible idea!

I find poo-picking quite theraputic, but I have small paddocks that are carefully managed.
		
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Shorter grass is sweeter! And when it gets long it is not the best quality, that is why topping can be very useful, as it encourages healthy grass growth and keeps the grass at its optimum height.

I personally wouldnt harrow a field that has been neglected a bit with the poo-picking (obviously through no fault of your own). As mentioned above harrowing just spreads any parasites that are in the poo around the field. You could end up with pasture that has a lot of parasites which the horses can pick up when grazing. Not good for the worm situation!

Maybe you could find someone to help you out by doing some poo-picking for you for some reward?


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## Beatrice5 (14 May 2010)

Surely if you harrowed then borrowed some sheep or cattle for a few weeks they'd clean up the pasture and mop up some of the worm egg burden.

Just a thought. Having four kids myself all close together I know how difficult it is to waddle around in the late stages of pregnancy and how demanding small babes are. Also how helpful 2 year old can be....! Juggling ponies / horses and little ones is never an easy task, I am all for making life easier and to harrow then borrow sheep would be my preffered option 

Good luck with the new arrival and let us know when he she arives - I LOVE babies x


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## mrdarcy (14 May 2010)

Poo pick into a few large pyramid shaped piles. Leave these poo piles to rot down in the field. The idea is to encourage the horses to make their own stud piles, as they would in the wild. It does seem to work... kind of! Some horses pick it up quickly, some slowly and some are just messy little swines.


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## H's mum (14 May 2010)

Beatrice5 said:



			Surely if you harrowed then borrowed some sheep or cattle for a few weeks they'd clean up the pasture and mop up some of the worm egg burden.

Just a thought. Having four kids myself all close together I know how difficult it is to waddle around in the late stages of pregnancy and how demanding small babes are. Also how helpful 2 year old can be....! Juggling ponies / horses and little ones is never an easy task, I am all for making life easier and to harrow then borrow sheep would be my preffered option 

Good luck with the new arrival and let us know when he she arives - I LOVE babies x
		
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Thanks Beatrice I'll post as soon as anything happens! 
I'm thinking of poo picking/tidying up and then harrowing to keep on top - although if I'm not pregnant I may be more inclined to poo pick again - It's just too much for me at the moment to keep up to!  (A neighbour has one of those hoover poo-picker-up-ers and I've seriously considered asking them how much they'd charge to do it for me! LOL!)
Kate x


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## H's mum (14 May 2010)

mrdarcy said:



			Poo pick into a few large pyramid shaped piles. Leave these poo piles to rot down in the field. The idea is to encourage the horses to make their own stud piles, as they would in the wild. It does seem to work... kind of! Some horses pick it up quickly, some slowly and some are just messy little swines.
		
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OMG That's a genius idea - I've not heard of that before - The actual poo picking isn't too bad for me it's the barrow-pushing up and down the field that's proving too difficult - so doing that would be a really good idea - It would be great if it worked too! 
Kate x


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## Ellies_mum2 (15 May 2010)

We harrowed our fields about a month ago and now keep on top of it by poo picking daily. Easily said for me as there are 6 liveries to the big field (12 acres) so can manage to keep on top of it easily enough



Good luck with the birth etc. Look forward to seeing piccies of the new arrival


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## JamesEarwaker (15 May 2010)

If the paddocks are being left to rest then grass harrow everytime, spreads the poo about and lets it rot down properly and gives the grass a little boost too.


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## sunlover (9 July 2010)

poo pick poo pick poo pick - I have ocd and love to see a poo free field........


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## Donkeymad (10 July 2010)

No matter what people say, the fact is that harrowing in the UK will spread any worm contamination. We do NOT get the right weather to destroy any worms/eggs.


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## lisa-aslan16 (7 October 2014)

Well very interesting comments. Three horses on our fields which all have long grass in sections from bad management from previous owners. Don't even get me started on the ragwort! Twenty hours labour and still doing half and hour every day. Now two of theses horses are not mine but the owner is to busy to be on hand so its down to me. Poo picking would take for ever as its not been done properly for a while due to ragwort picking and everything else. Have asked the local farmer and he hasn't got a harrow. So I am wondering where to start? Will spreading by hand be effective enough? Its going to take me forever either way. Once I have rid of the poo from the long grass ahs anyone any ideas of how to get that suitable for grazing again because it takes over quite a large proportion of what would be grazing? Think I may have to do one field at a time but I really need to manage this grass better going forward. Any advice will be gratefully received


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## Sebastian (7 October 2014)

Fresh manure should not be left on the fields. Besides the risks of worm eggs, the organisms that break up fresh manure use up nutrients from the soil. Composted manure is good to spread, but it will lower the pH, so you need to test the pH of the soil before doing so, or compensate with lime because grass wants somewhere around 6.2 to 6.5 pH. Where about are you? There must be a farmer/contractor in the area with a harrow. Bear in mind that the temperature needs to be above 25 degrees Celsius (if I recall correctly, but it's definitely somewhere in that range) for the eggs to die if you're spreading/chain harrowing fresh manure.


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## lisa-aslan16 (7 October 2014)

Sebastian said:



			Fresh manure should not be left on the fields. Besides the risks of worm eggs, the organisms that break up fresh manure use up nutrients from the soil. Composted manure is good to spread, but it will lower the pH, so you need to test the pH of the soil before doing so, or compensate with lime because grass wants somewhere around 6.2 to 6.5 pH. Where about are you? There must be a farmer/contractor in the area with a harrow. Bear in mind that the temperature needs to be above 25 degrees Celsius (if I recall correctly, but it's definitely somewhere in that range) for the eggs to die if you're spreading/chain harrowing fresh manure.
		
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Thanks Sebastian

I am going to start it a field at a time and meanwhile ask around for other farmers that may have a harrow. It is a lot to do on my own and a bit frustrating as I only have the one pony on the premises. I am from the Derby area so must have a few farmers around. Once harrowed or picked what is the best way to get the long grass to grazing quality?

Thank You


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## Sebastian (7 October 2014)

My pleasure. That's a bit far, so I cannot recommend anyone. Top it and chain harrow it as a start, but it's a bit late now, depending on the soil and how wet your fields are.


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## lisa-aslan16 (7 October 2014)

Deep dark soil no clay and flat fields that are not to wet at the minute but who knows if this weather continues. I will work on it the best I can even if I do one field at a time


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## Moya_999 (7 October 2014)

H's mum said:



			Just wanting to pick people's brains - I'm due to have a baby shortly (within a few weeks) and due to being a bit off it this past few weeks I've not been able to poo pick - the field is looking in desperate need of it now - but I wondered if poo picking is the only option and what would be the benefits of harrowing it instead?
Thanks
Kate x
		
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this has been done to death I am afraid
http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/foru...ow-often-how-much-time-spent&highlight=harrow


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## paulineh (7 October 2014)

As both myself and my friend who share the grazing with me lead very busy lives and ours are all together I harrow the fields on a regular bases. I have 4.5 acres which includes the stable area and the Car/Trailer area. The fields are divided up into a small field of about half an acre which is poo picked. and two further fields of 2.25 acres and 1.25 acres which are harrowed.The fields are topped and rotated and with five horses on the grazing we have plenty of nice grass. I have just done a worm count on all ours and each has come back <50. We worm as and when needed but always worm for Tape worm twice a year. When I do worm the horses are put into the small field for a week so that I can poo pick that field.

I keep a good eye on the ph and fertilize as and when needed.

Another friend and myself are considering getting a Manure vacuum cleaner as she has 2.5 acres and has mobile problems at the moment.


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## Dry Rot (7 October 2014)

Sebastian said:



			Fresh manure should not be left on the fields. *Besides the risks of worm eggs, the organisms that break up fresh manure use up nutrients from the soil.* Composted manure is good to spread, but it will lower the pH, so you need to test the pH of the soil before doing so, or compensate with lime because grass wants somewhere around 6.2 to 6.5 pH. Where about are you? There must be a farmer/contractor in the area with a harrow. Bear in mind that the temperature needs to be above 25 degrees Celsius (if I recall correctly, but it's definitely somewhere in that range) for the eggs to die if you're spreading/chain harrowing fresh manure.
		
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Not trying to pick a fight here but my soil (as you know from another forum!) is almost pure sand. My neighbour on possibly even worse land always has plenty of grass which annoys the hell out of me! I finally challenged him about it. His reply, "Muck". He is absolutely right. He is a cattle farmer so always has plenty of FYM. I spread the contents of a rather large muck heap on nine acres, plus 100kgs of 20:10:10, two years ago and the swaths were so huge that my small baler could not manage it and I had to get a contractor in to round bale it! So excuse me if I challenge the remark I have emphasised above.

As I understand it, microfauna (mostly earth worms) take organic matter below ground where it is digested to produce the nutrients that can be utilised by grass and other vegetation. So the organisms don't use up soil nutrients but rather do the opposite.

As regards harrowing, the jury is still out. I use spiked chain harrows with a railway sleeper tied onto the trailing edge which smashes up the lumps quite well. I always harrow twice, the second time at 90 degrees. The horses go back in when I judge the rain was washed the grass clean. I'll tell you whether this works when we've done some more worm counting -- but so far, so good. I am highly suspicious of the paranoia and propaganda about worms and worming. A lot of people make an awful lot of money selling us stuff like that.


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## Sebastian (8 October 2014)

No worries mate - I am always interested in hearing different opinions. Spreading composted manure makes a huge difference for me, but I would not spread fresh manure.  I am talking about the bacteria and fungi during the composting period. How fresh was the muck heap that you spread? 




			Composting organisms require four equally important ingredients to work effectively:

Carbon &#8212; for energy; the microbial oxidation of carbon produces the heat, if included at suggested levels.[1]
High carbon materials tend to be brown and dry.
Nitrogen &#8212; to grow and reproduce more organisms to oxidize the carbon.
High nitrogen materials tend to be green (or colorful, such as fruits and vegetables) and wet.[2]
Oxygen &#8212; for oxidizing the carbon, the decomposition process.
Water &#8212; in the right amounts to maintain activity without causing anaerobic conditions.
		
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			With the proper mixture of water, oxygen, carbon, and nitrogen, micro-organisms are allowed to break down organic matter to produce compost.[8] The composting process is dependent on micro-organisms to break down organic matter into compost. There are many types of microorganisms found in active compost of which the most common are:[9]

Bacteria- The most numerous of all the microorganisms found in compost.
Actinobacteria- Necessary for breaking down paper products such as newspaper, bark, etc.
Fungi- Molds and yeast help break down materials that bacteria cannot, especially lignin in woody material.
Protozoa- Help consume bacteria, fungi and micro organic particulates.
Rotifers- Rotifers help control populations of bacteria and small protozoans.
In addition, earthworms not only ingest partly composted material, but also continually re-create aeration and drainage tunnels as they move through the compost.
		
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## lisa-aslan16 (8 October 2014)

H's mum said:



			OMG That's a genius idea - I've not heard of that before - The actual poo picking isn't too bad for me it's the barrow-pushing up and down the field that's proving too difficult - so doing that would be a really good idea - It would be great if it worked too! 
Kate x
		
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I would be very, very interested to hear if this pyramid stacking works because it makes a lot of sense and seems like a really easy option for me personally x


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## Dry Rot (8 October 2014)

Sebastian said:



			No worries mate - I am always interested in hearing different opinions. Spreading composted manure makes a huge difference for me, but I would not spread fresh manure.  I am talking about the bacteria and fungi during the composting period. How fresh was the muck heap that you spread?
		
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The muck heap was an accumulation from a kennels over about 12 years! Rocket fuel!  But I also notice an improvement by spreading fresh(-ish) muck with the harrows. What at college was called "short dung". Long dung is well rotted. If the muck is well pulverised and then there is rain, I would imagine all organic matter would b washed down to soil level and out of reach of horses. I'll try to take some photos next time I harrow. For the same reason, I have no worries about grazing horses on grass that has recently had artificial fertiliser or lime applied.

I was looking at a field I harrowed a couple of weeks ago today. The muck all seems to have been washed in and has disappeared. But I do harrow at least twice, at right angles, when the nuggets will grumble under foot, with spiked chain harrows and a railway sleeper dragged along behind that. That makes a pretty good job of breaking everything up and spreading it.


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## Sebastian (9 October 2014)

I would imagine that if the fresh manure is broken up properly into very small pieces, like you're doing, then the conditions will be pretty optimal with plenty of oxygen, water etc to speed up the composting process and releasing the nutrients into the soil. Another point is that as far as I understand, fresh manure is rich in potassium, which stops grass from absorbing magnesium. Most people won't spread fertiliser to compensate for this, but I assume from your posts that you do on a regular basis?


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## Surreyferretman (11 October 2014)

Poo picking ,Harrowing , resting and. , aerating, with the resting bit last : ) 
I spend a bit of time around stables and liveries , and see the poor grass roots starved of oxygen. Grass will recover a lot quicker after a good spiking. ,


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## Dry Rot (11 October 2014)

Sebastian said:



			I would imagine that if the fresh manure is broken up properly into very small pieces, like you're doing, then the conditions will be pretty optimal with plenty of oxygen, water etc to speed up the composting process and releasing the nutrients into the soil. Another point is that as far as I understand, fresh manure is rich in potassium, which stops grass from absorbing magnesium. Most people won't spread fertiliser to compensate for this, but I assume from your posts that you do on a regular basis?
		
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In theory, fertiliser should only be required if minerals are being removed from the land (as meat, bone, hides, etc.) as in normal livestock farming. That is not happening with horses, unless all the poo is removed or the young stock is being sold off, so the fertility should be maintained, surely?

I do know my soil is deficient in copper and cobalt but the experts tell me even that should be corrected in time as I supply mineral blocks to the stock and the excess is passed through the horses and returned to the soil in muck and urine.

My biggest worry is a build up of worms. I have about 25 acres of grass and in my best year I had 250 ewes, lambs, and tups (no horses) AND I cut 10 acres of hay! Yes, it sounds incredible but I regularly moved the sheep and topped the grass to keep it short. I only applied one tonne of compound fertiliser. Of course, in time, it got "sheep sick" which is the dreaded build up of worms that have become resistant to wormer. A sheep's biggest enemy, as I am sure you know, is another sheep! I don't want my land to now become "horse sick".

A factor few seem to include in their calculations is that horses are very tight grazers. They graze even closer than sheep. Over time, this type of grazing will eliminate all the tall species and broad leaved leaves will begin to dominate. When that happens, putting on more fertiliser is a waste of money. I sprayed for buttercups this summer so it will be interesting to see what the grass looks like in 2015.


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## Sebastian (11 October 2014)

When that happens, putting on more fertiliser is a waste of money.
		
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I was not aware of this. Can you expand a bit and tell me more please?


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## Achinghips (12 October 2014)

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