# Horse bolts when mounting



## Crabbypink (1 November 2015)

We've recently taken on a project horse - 9 years old, and cannot be ridden (yet). Had vet check him out - he appears to have no health problems. Some white scarring on withers says he may have had a bad saddle. He is polite and kind on the ground, and learns quickly. We've taught him to lunge and he goes for walks around the village. He's not frightened by much. But ... we can't mount him. He's been lunged with properly fitting tack, and appears to have no problem with that. We put sand-stuffed jods on his back, and he got used to that. But trying to mount him is like trying to mount a runaway train. He bolts! My yard manager leaned over his saddle today, and he bolted, then got his feet all tangled up. I sincerely believe he's had a bad experience, and not been ridden since. But can anyone give me some good advice on how to go about gaining this boy's confidence? He's just so beautiful and capable - it would be such a waste to never ride this lovely horse!


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## FlyingCircus (1 November 2015)

Crabbypink said:



			We've recently taken on a project horse - 9 years old, and cannot be ridden (yet). Had vet check him out - he appears to have no health problems. Some white scarring on withers says he may have had a bad saddle. He is polite and kind on the ground, and learns quickly. We've taught him to lunge and he goes for walks around the village. He's not frightened by much. But ... we can't mount him. He's been lunged with properly fitting tack, and appears to have no problem with that. We put sand-stuffed jods on his back, and he got used to that. But trying to mount him is like trying to mount a runaway train. He bolts! My yard manager leaned over his saddle today, and he bolted, then got his feet all tangled up. I sincerely believe he's had a bad experience, and not been ridden since. But can anyone give me some good advice on how to go about gaining this boy's confidence? He's just so beautiful and capable - it would be such a waste to never ride this lovely horse!
		
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How did she go to lean over? Did she put foot in stirrup first?
Is he comfortable by people and things being above him? Such as someone sitting on a fence next to him, above him.


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## Pinkvboots (1 November 2015)

It could be a response to pain or where he may have been in pain before his expecting it to hurt, or it could be that his had a bad experience with being mounted, did the previous owners ride him?


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## Exploding Chestnuts (1 November 2015)

He might drive, but that does not help you.
Just persevere with grooming him from above the eyeline , but be careful, you should only ever try backing, by which I mean your feet off the ground, with hat and back protector, and I would have his back feet unshod [probably fronts too]. Only try on soft surface, and in a confined area.
You need two people plus the backer, and it might take three months for him to accept anyone, and maybe never.
Of course he may have some damage. This should be considered.
I would first try lying over a roller with a pad. He may accept this. 
You may need to lightly sedate, which is not a great idea, but you can think about it..


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## maccachic (2 November 2015)

There is a few tools in here which will help particularly episode 19.  https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLB040007A9673927F


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## popsdosh (2 November 2015)

To be totally honest with you at nine yo I am sure many people have already tried to sort the problem . I sometime despair at people thinking they can sort out what others cant.Invariably its those who are least capable and knowledgeable! Sorry OP but the fact you have to come on here to ask others how to manage it is testament to why I despair! Please be very careful I am sure plenty will give you lots of advice on this one but just remember its not their necks on the line when you carry out what they suggest.
I know what I would suggest but it wont be popular so best not say it!! just infer it may be safest idea for you and the horse as it obviously has a problem


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## Shay (2 November 2015)

When we got our ISH he was difficult to mount.  Not quite to the extent your lad is - it took 2 adults and 2 lunge whips to hold him for my daughter to mount and then dive out of the way of his feet (he was and is a very talented jumper and a honey on the ground so we stuck with him) - or she could leg up on the move which was probably all he had been taught.  He had the unlovely habit of trying to avoid being mounted by striking forward with his hind foot to hit the rider.  He too would bolt forward as soon as weight appeared lashing out at anyone on the ground - although in fairness he could be circled and brought back quite quickly - it was temper not a panic bolt. He was quite a pain.

We got him over it pretty much as bonkers suggests.  Lots of work above his eye line.  It helped that our daughter was quite short (he was a Junior BS pony) so had to groom, plait etc standing on a box.  We stood on fences, got a super high mounting block.  When we decided we were going to deal with this one way or the other we settled for a bareback pad so no-one could get caught on stirrups etc) and just mounted and mounted and mounted.  We spent a week doing no work at all - just mounting and dismounting 20, 30, 40 times.  He could run off and do whatever he wanted; but he had to come back and be mounted again.  The rider could just roll off safely - all done on a deep surfaced enclosed school. (and my very brave daughter!)  After a week we brought the saddle back (all checks done...) and repeated it without stirrups then with stirrups.  All in all it took about 3 weeks I think.  he isn't perfect to mount - but much better.  If he hadn't been so great we wouldn't have bothered.

Good luck with your lad - it does come right!


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## Goldenstar (2 November 2015)

Don't try to break a nine yo with a strong bolting response to drive not safe for anyone .


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## Exploding Chestnuts (2 November 2015)

Crabbypink said:



			- it would be such a waste to never ride this lovely horse!
		
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Of course horses don't think like you do: he might prefer to live out his days in the company of his  equine friends and not humans. This would be my idea of rescueing many of these animals.


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## Crabbypink (2 November 2015)

We took the stirrups off, because we felt it was more of a hazard at this point. She leaned over the saddle, until her full weight was on his back, feet just above the mounting block. I think you have a good point about the people being taller than he is. We are going to try to sit on the fence next to him, without mounting, to desensitise him from that. Thanks.


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## Crabbypink (2 November 2015)

Bonkers, you have a point that he'd rather be living out his days in a field, but wouldn't we all? He's so beautiful, and so capable (he can jump out of a 4½ foot sand school). It would be a true shame not to try with this boy.


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## Crabbypink (2 November 2015)

I'm a lawyer. I know what the risks are, and I'm not holding anyone responsible for my actions. I'm not looking for a fix; I'm looking for advice from people who have done this sort of thing. It can be done. There is lots of advice out there. Since this horse is so easy to handle on the ground, I suspect the mounting problem can be solved. At least, I'm willing to have a go. It's only been about 6 weeks, without really trying to mount him yet. Early days. Nothing good comes quickly or easily.


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## Crabbypink (2 November 2015)

The previous owner is a dealer, who got him free from someone, who was too terrified to try to ride him. The dealer wasn't going to put any time into him, so we agreed to take him on. He has white scars on his withers. Very likely a bad saddle. We did have the vet do a full check, and a particular spine check, with positive results. I think your point about memory is probably accurate.


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## Crabbypink (2 November 2015)

Bonkers2, thanks. Those are good suggestions. He is completely unshod. Anyone near him during these sessions has a hat on, and I've said to my yard manager that she should have my back protector. We do have a confined area, and a sand surface. We will try one more person with him, and I'm going to ring the chiropractor to have a session done. Sedation is a consideration, but as you say, not great. Will consider, though, if it seems to be going the wrong way. Will also try the roller, instead of the saddle. Thanks again.


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## popsdosh (2 November 2015)

I think your deluding yourself !!! how does being pretty and jumping 4.5 foot sand school fence make any difference. The pretty ones are the worse as they have got to nione years old only due to their looks. Sorry have to be so blunt but seriously ask yourself if the dealer would not try to put it right what makes you think you can!! LOL The white scars are just as likely to be from a badly fitting rug as a poor fitting saddle and maybe he jumps out of the sand school out of fear. What worries me most you are expecting somebody else to risk their neck!!!! More fool them


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## popsdosh (2 November 2015)

Bonkers2 said:



			Of course horses don't think like you do: he might prefer to live out his days in the company of his  equine friends and not humans. This would be my idea of rescueing many of these animals.
		
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I have one at home 10yo full brother to an advance eventer . He had a bad experience when younger and nowhere as bad as the OPs however despite all the begging to be allowed to try I wont allow anybody to ride him as I could not live with myself if anything went wrong. Hes just a field ornament but better that than hurting somebody . 
The OP as a solicitor must be aware that they could be held liable for any injuries to a third party as they clearly know there is a problem.


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## Dazed'n'confused (2 November 2015)

popsdosh said:



			To be totally honest with you at nine yo I am sure many people have already tried to sort the problem . I sometime despair at people thinking they can sort out what others cant.Invariably its those who are least capable and knowledgeable! Sorry OP but the fact you have to come on here to ask others how to manage it is testament to why I despair! Please be very careful I am sure plenty will give you lots of advice on this one but just remember its not their necks on the line when you carry out what they suggest.
I know what I would suggest but it wont be popular so best not say it!! just infer it may be safest idea for you and the horse as it obviously has a problem
		
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Totally and utterly agree with this! 
It's such a shame but there are enough lovely horses in this world without having to risk life and limb on one with major issues (sad as it is for the horse who probably ended up with these problems as a result of human error in the first place)....


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## Leo Walker (2 November 2015)

popsdosh said:



			I think your deluding yourself !!! how does being pretty and jumping 4.5 foot sand school fence make any difference. The pretty ones are the worse as they have got to nione years old only due to their looks. Sorry have to be so blunt but seriously ask yourself if the dealer would not try to put it right what makes you think you can!! LOL The white scars are just as likely to be from a badly fitting rug as a poor fitting saddle and maybe he jumps out of the sand school out of fear. What worries me most you are expecting somebody else to risk their neck!!!! More fool them
		
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Because the OP wants to ride him and everyone always thinks they can do a better job than the one before them who failed. Its how these horses end up in this state in the first place. I'd be getting his back xrayed and physio etc done before I went any further if I was you. Then I would find a seriously good pro who is totally aware of all the issues and pay them to try and sort it. If they cant, then either PTS or retire the horse, but dont pass him on


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (2 November 2015)

i think you are probably on to a hiding to nothing except a visit to A&E however:

my 3yo didnt bolt, but did bronc (all 4 feet above head height like a rodeo horse).

the superb trainer that managed to back him did the following....

firstly i taught him to give,instantly,to lateral flexion so that you could pick up the rein and take only a tiny amount of pressure and he would bend right round to touch his nose to the girth area.

this was then used whilst pressure was applied, ie he didnt like stirrups banging on him so he was stood up quietly and asked to flex half way, stirrups then banged, if he launched off the flexion was increased and the banging kept up until he stopped moving his feet and gave full flexion and at that point flexion was released and banging stopped. He learnt it was easy to stand in half flexion and that if more flexion was requested,giving full flexion would stop the pressure(in this example the banging).

once you could flap bang launch and leap round him from the ground and standing on a box and he would ALWAYS immediately give to flexion, the trainer let his stirrup down low enough it was easy to put the tip of his toe in, put the horse in half flexion and started to bounce off the low stirrup next to him. Any panic and it was easy to keep the horse in a tight circle and keep toe in stirrup so again horse learnt that giving to the flexion releases pressure (foot out of stirrup and praise as soon as horse stands quietly).

this progressed to being able to stand up in the stirrup and lean against the horse,keeping some flexion so that it was easy to bring him round in a circle if he wanted to bronc.

he didnt even attempt to get on until he could mount half way from both sides, lean right over and bang down the opposite side, rub his free foot all the way along the horses belly/elbows and stifle and kneel on the rump with free leg. he did this stationary AND whilst asking the horse to walk in small circles.

there is no way getting more and more people to try and restrain the horse would have worked. He had to learn to give to flexion and trust that giving would make life easier.

you cant over power a panicking horse,only out think them.

be careful.

the 3yo is question has been a complete dude since coming home and if he does have a green moment, flexing him puts him instantly *back in the room* and calms him totally. I've only had to use it once when he was a bit over excited on a mini hack with another horse-felt like he wanted to jump forward and maybe buck, flexed him round and he stopped, gave relaxed and walked on totally fine


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## Exploding Chestnuts (2 November 2015)

Crabbypink said:



			The previous owner is a dealer, who got him free from someone, who was too terrified to try to ride him. The dealer wasn't going to put any time into him, so we agreed to take him on. He has white scars on his withers. Very likely a bad saddle. We did have the vet do a full check, and a particular spine check, with positive results. I think your point about memory is probably accurate.
		
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This was not a vetting though, no vet would advise you to take this on. 
No pro will want to risk life and limb to sort your horse, he might take your money , but he won't risk llife and limb.
People who could handle horses like this are rare and they know better than to buy them.


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## eggs (2 November 2015)

Years ago I bought a horse that to be fair I was told was a bit tricky to get on.  When I tried him the owner first got on and he shuffled around a bit and then when I rode him he did the same.  Decided that was not too bad and he was right for me in other ways.  Hindsight is a wonderful thing - I am pretty certain they had got on him before I arrived!

Got him home and then the first time I tried to get on him I had just got my foot in the stirrup and jumped up at which point he whipped round and shot off down the yard with the result that I hit the floor hard.  The only way I could get on him was to have someone hold him, someone hold a front leg up and someone else leg me up.  Once I was on I had to keep my weight off his back and let him walk on straight away and then he settled and was absolutely fine.

We tried lungeing him with stirrups down - no problem.  Standing on a box so I was higher than him - no problem.  Leaning over the saddle whilst standing on the box - no problem.  Jumping up and down on the box - no problem.  Still needed three people to get me on.  I was a LOT younger then and persevered with it - don't think I would now.  One day I was out hacking with a friend and got knocked off when a gate shut on us as we were going through the gateway.  It was a long way from home and I thought I would have to lead him home.  My friend offered to give me a leg up which I rather dubiously accepted but to my complete surprise it was not a problem.  As a result of that I would get on and then immediately off him and back on again a few times.  After a few months I was able to get on him on my own.  

I had been able to ride him and had him fully vetted before I bought him so knew there was no physical problem with him being ridden.


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## Booboos (2 November 2015)

Ideally take him to a professional who is used to this kind of thing who can take their time to sort him out.

If you want to do this yourself think about desensitising him and rewarding positive behaviour. Find what he tolerates, reward and repeat that behaviour until he is comfortable, then take it a tiny step further. Take your time and do little and often.


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## Equi (2 November 2015)

Im on the fence here. I believe every horse deserves a chance. i was told my stallion "freaked out" by long lining and having things behind him so his owner stopped doing it. I found him to be a little scared of things below his tail line, but spending ten mins every day randomly pulling his tail with the whip and touching his back legs with it sorted it and he is now one of my best, and has so much potential. He hitched up absolutely no issue. I am a novice but felt able to deal with the issue. Had he been a full size horse who was bolting each time? I probably could not have dealt. 

You have to ask yourself do you REALLY have the experience for it. Clearly something is wrong with him be it physical or mental but at 9 he should be settling himself now. If a dealer won't even touch him i can't see how any other professional would. At 9 he is not going to be carving out a career other than a pleasure horse but would you want one you know has the potential to bolt? To me a bolting horse, a true bolting horse, is not very safe.


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## Crabbypink (2 November 2015)

To those people who have simply written about how useless I am and how stupid we are to take on this project: if you haven't any suggestions, then keep your opinion to yourself. I'm not making anyone do anything. My yard manager and I are doing this together. I'm not asking anyone to take responsibility for my doing what they suggest. I am very experienced, and putting this on a forum is perfectly acceptable - that is what forums are for. If you haven't anything positive to add, then don't bother to add your negative comments.


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## Booboos (2 November 2015)

Crabbypink said:



			If you haven't any suggestions, then keep your opinion to yourself. I'm not making anyone do anything. My yard manager and I are doing this together.
		
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Charming! It's been a pleasure...not. I'm out.


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## EQUIDAE (2 November 2015)

Has the horse been xrayed, and scoped for ulcers?


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## Crabbypink (2 November 2015)

No, Equidae ... I haven't explored ulcers. Can you tell me more?


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## Equi (2 November 2015)

If you post on a forum saying you bought a horse that bolts what can you do, you expect answers. Sorry if they are not all flowers and pink fluffy clouds. Sometimes people need a reality check from someone impartial!


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## Leo Walker (2 November 2015)

Crabbypink said:



			I am very experienced, and putting this on a forum is perfectly acceptable - that is what forums are for. If you haven't anything positive to add, then don't bother to add your negative comments.
		
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And so is responding in a way you dont like. Its how forums work.

For someone with so much experience you seem to have been several huge mistakes already


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## HeresHoping (2 November 2015)

Hi,

Sorry about your predicament.

First off, Sparkle Sister 1 had some excellent advice.

Second, before you start on Princess Sparkle's advice, and that of those that suggest the height theory, please get his back x-rayed.  If he has Kissing Spine, which results in all sorts of explosions and bolting - a few of us here have the tee shirts, me included - it will only be revealed through x-rays.  No amount of vet prodding with calipers will reveal that information, although it might 'suggest' a sore back.  It could be mild, in which case there could be hope, or it could be absent, in which case there could be hope, or it could be prolific, in which case there could be no hope.  What a back x-ray won't reveal is an SI injury (which also can produce a similar response - I have that tee-shirt, too) but there could be indicators for that which a good vet can spot.

Third, getting him scoped for ulcers is a very good idea. In the meantime, take him off all starches and sugars, and soak his hay. Start feeding Brewers Yeast or similar.  But get the vet out pronto and see whether he has lesions.  Even tiny ones can cause a big reaction. 

Fourth, if he has just come to you, it might be worth waiting a bit before you do anything - give him some stability.  It sounds as though he has been passed from pillar to post.  He's going to be unsettled -which will aggravate his ulcers if he has any.

HTH


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## popsdosh (2 November 2015)

Crabbypink said:



			To those people who have simply written about how useless I am and how stupid we are to take on this project: if you haven't any suggestions, then keep your opinion to yourself. I'm not making anyone do anything. My yard manager and I are doing this together. I'm not asking anyone to take responsibility for my doing what they suggest. I am very experienced, and putting this on a forum is perfectly acceptable - that is what forums are for. If you haven't anything positive to add, then don't bother to add your negative comments.
		
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You onbviously have so much experience to have to ask the question. All the replies so far have been about trying to save yours and anybody elses neck. It is so charming when new posters on here are so sure of themselves and rude. You put it on a public forum and then are surprised that you dont agree with all the answers but we are equally entitled to our opinions and some will have a lot more relevant knowledge than you frankly appear to posses . Sorry we have wasted our time trying to put you right and good luck. Just remember a very true saying ' once a bolter always a bolter' So good luck


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## TrasaM (2 November 2015)

I had an ex racer as a share once and he was a pain to mount. The saddle he had was too small plus he had a bit which was 3/4" too big. He would fidget and fuss and as soon as you were on he'd dash forwards then when I stopped that he'd run backwards. He took off with me one day when I was half way on..one stirrup and one rein. He dashed off across the school with me lying over his rump.. One of these moments when a lot of thoughts flash through your mind! Lucky my self preservation kicked in and I pulled myself upright and managed to stop him. I got advice and then took a friend with me who fed him treats at each stage of the mounting process. It took about half an hour I think before I could get on and have him stand still.  After this there were no further problems and I could mount him anywhere without a problem. 
In his case I'm sure it was associated discomfort due to ill fitting tack - I got him a saddle he was comfy in btw, as soon as I found out that his saddle didn't fit. 
Proceed with caution in any case. Is there any way you can find out his history ?


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## Goldenstar (2 November 2015)

These horses are not suitable for most people to back .
Tbh and blunt that you say it's a good idea to get up above him as one poster suggested just shows out out of your depth you and the YOer are .
Grooming should be undertaken from above to prepare the horse and to you get to moment when you get on the horse .
When I was on a yard where we backed lot we groomed standing on pretty high stools and chairs the horse where completely laid back by us doing this and dragging the stools about and hopping on and off them .
We would lean on them while grooming slump against them and eventually lie across them in the stable with one person at the horse head and another to leg gently up or sometimes we just used to stool .
This almost always told us which ones where going to be more difficult and needed more work before we got on .
PS post is exactly how to approach the issue now you're got a big problem to handle although if I where I would researching the horses history because there's no point or is it fair to puts the horse though this if something in it's past explains why it's got to nine years unbacked.


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (2 November 2015)

yes i should add(albeit rather late) i am assuming this is with no physical issues found after extensive searching. We had all the usual checks done on my boy and as no pain response was located at all, sent him away to super trainer rather than start x raying etc, to see what he thought. The fact he improved so quickly and in such a solid way(ie no relapses) told us it wasnt pain but at 9yo many more attempts will have been made and the problem is far more likely to be physical.


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## Pinkvboots (2 November 2015)

Crabbypink said:



			To those people who have simply written about how useless I am and how stupid we are to take on this project: if you haven't any suggestions, then keep your opinion to yourself. I'm not making anyone do anything. My yard manager and I are doing this together. I'm not asking anyone to take responsibility for my doing what they suggest. I am very experienced, and putting this on a forum is perfectly acceptable - that is what forums are for. If you haven't anything positive to add, then don't bother to add your negative comments.
		
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if I were you I would have the horse checked over to rule out ulcers spine or back issues by a good vet and that means scope and X rays if need be because he was passed on to a dealer as dangerous to ride chances are he has pain somewhere, if he is pain free I would send him to a pro that deals with horses with behaviour issues, there is a place near me in Welwyn they take difficult horses for training a friend of mine sent her pony to them as she started to buck very badly she was there about a month my friend went down to ride her there and watch them working with her and she came back a different pony, all her problems started she thinks from a saddle that didnt fit and even when it was changed she still bucked, honestly I wouldn't even attempt to try yourself but you must rule out any physical problems first.


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## maccachic (2 November 2015)

I was at an event the other day and sat in on a clinic with Carlos tabernaberri and he made a very good point that if you cannot control your horse / gets it attention on the ground you should not get on it.


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## Exploding Chestnuts (2 November 2015)

maccachic said:



			I was at an event the other day and sat in on a clinic with Carlos tabernaberri and he made a very good point that if you cannot control your horse / gets it attention on the ground you should not get on it.
		
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this is not relevant, who would be so stupid?


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## madmav (2 November 2015)

Warwick Schiller has some interesting videos on utube that deal with problems like this.


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## maccachic (2 November 2015)

Bonkers2 said:



			this is not relevant, who would be so stupid?
		
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Umm it is relevant how many above posted that they still got on despite obvious issues on the ground - there is a mother above who said she used to shove her daughter up.  I see it regularly at an events etc unsettled horse cant be settled on the ground still ridden.

Common sense is not common.


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## Crabbypink (3 November 2015)

HeresHoping - thank you. I have just called the chiropractor, but I'll ask the vet to do an x-ray, too. And I'm going to the feed shop right now, so I can get the brewers yeast. He has only been with us six weeks, so your comment about stability is totally justified. He's a good boy in most respects, so I am hopeful. Thanks for your constructive comments.


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## positivity (3 November 2015)

considering you dont know the situation i think its unfair and infact a bit dim & snobby of you to criticize and expect they mistakes have been made


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## Equi (3 November 2015)

dim and snobby. Great first post


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## positivity (3 November 2015)

yeah :thumbup: well you never stop learning when it comes to a horse and each one is different. asking for fresh ideas amongst the usual isnt a bad thing, seems like a good idea to hear some veiws which vary the horses learning curve to make it a better experience. obviously some people believe posting in a forum makes it a bad thing except in this case its purely to interpret ideas with their own


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## Leo Walker (4 November 2015)

positivity said:



			yeah :thumbup: well you never stop learning when it comes to a horse and each one is different. asking for fresh ideas amongst the usual isnt a bad thing, seems like a good idea to hear some veiws which vary the horses learning curve to make it a better experience. obviously some people believe posting in a forum makes it a bad thing except in this case its purely to interpret ideas with their own
		
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Your almost right. Asking for fresh ideas is never a bad idea. The flaw in your argument is that several fundamental mistakes have already been made so far with the horse. Not always the end of the world with something straight forward, but this horse isnt, and in these sort of circumstances you need to make sure than no mistakes are ever made and everything is totally cemented before you move to the next stage. 

It really does sound to me like if there are no physical issues then this a pro job. You can have all the experience in the world as a horse owner, but you will never come close to the experience of a good pro who rides several horses a day and has backed and ridden away more horses than the average person will ever even sit on. 

I fractured my spine trying to help a friend with her tricky horse, it was mainly an accident, and a tiny bit a moment of stupidity on my behalf, and one that I would have gotten away with a thousand times over on different horses. It doesnt change the fact that 3 years down the line I am crippled. Cant walk more than 50yds without being in agony, cant do most of the things I used to, and every bloody day is a fight just to semi function. I also had lots of experience!


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## maccachic (4 November 2015)

http://www.aebc.com.au/files/media/Setting good ground rules Part 6.pdf


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## Exploding Chestnuts (4 November 2015)

If I were OP I would forget about riding for 6 months, and do parelli and other games, it would be something useful in this case, but I don't really  know if will help with the main problem, only because I am not sure it will be sortable.


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## Frumpoon (4 November 2015)

Omg this could be one of mine, we X rayed the spine, no kissing spines or fractures or similar but on scanning we found several scarred lesions in the supra spinous ligament, VERY painful.....

Now there's really no treatment for this but as a last resort we tried acupuncture which has really helped, he's still very flighty so we are investigating ulcers or similar as he is v guards on his right hand flank but it was definitely worth perservering


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## Exploding Chestnuts (4 November 2015)

Frumpoon said:



			Omg this could be one of mine, we X rayed the spine, no kissing spines or fractures or similar but on scanning we found several scarred lesions in the supra spinous ligament, VERY painful.....

Now there's really no treatment for this but as a last resort we tried acupuncture which has really helped, he's still very flighty so we are investigating ulcers or similar as he is v guards on his right hand flank but it was definitely worth perservering
		
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Well lets hope OP has deep pockets.


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## Frumpoon (4 November 2015)

Ah well true, but my little man was absolute steal so I figure the money spent on vets bills kind of evens it up and he is absolute poppet to handle and be around so it'll all be worth it in the end


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## popsdosh (4 November 2015)

positivity said:



			considering you dont know the situation i think its unfair and infact a bit dim & snobby of you to criticize and expect they mistakes have been made
		
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Trolls are great and very easily spotted an OP and another defending who are both new posters .LOL


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## Pinkvboots (4 November 2015)

Crabbypink said:



			HeresHoping - thank you. I have just called the chiropractor, but I'll ask the vet to do an x-ray, too. And I'm going to the feed shop right now, so I can get the brewers yeast. He has only been with us six weeks, so your comment about stability is totally justified. He's a good boy in most respects, so I am hopeful. Thanks for your constructive comments.
		
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6 weeks is no time at all he could still be just settling in to his surroundings and it sounds like his been passed on quite a bit so he may have trust issues, I think your doing the right thing getting him checked over I hope he has nothing seriously wrong.


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## Crabbypink (4 November 2015)

Thank you to the last few posters, who were positive. No matter my 30+ years experience, I am still learning. I've never done this particular job with this particular horse, but I do think it is worth trying. I do have deep pockets, Bonkers2, but that isn't the point. I may have to resort to Jason Webb, and that would be OK, but for now, I'm willing to try myself, so long as I think I can make some progress. We have backed way off with this horse, and we are doing a lot of playing, desensitising and just trust development. I would love to say I'd post his progress in a few months time, but it wouldn't be worth the barrage of nasty comments I'd get again. So thanks to everyone who did post something positive. I'll keep your ideas and suggestions on a page, and read them from time to time. For now, though, I'd like this thread to close. I tried to get H&H to delete it, because of the amount of ugliness in it, but so far, no luck. If I end up with a beautiful field ornament, then so be it, but it won't be because I didn't try my hardest. I have all the time in the world, resources, and good people around me. Thanks again, to those who tried to help.


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## minigammo (4 November 2015)

I had the same problem with my mare. Lots of ground work and slowly getting on and off treating and lots of praise.. youl get there in the end. you have to show him its ok and a nice experience when his human gets on his back  good luck


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## Luci07 (4 November 2015)

See, I have an issue with the tone of a lot of the responses and how judgemental they were and I have been on here for a long time. Back off! Time was when you could ask a question and have some interesting points raised. Now it seems a lot of people prefer to jump in with criticism. A lot of unpleasant assumptions were made as well. There is a lot of experience on this board and it is really interesting to see what different people think and can offer.  I have seen some very tricky horses come in as projects and I have seen when a pro has turned round to get more advice when the behaviour is well out of the expected range. Good luck OP and I for one would be interested in updates (if you can bear to).


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## EQUIDAE (4 November 2015)

OP I got the same when I first posted. I got some fantastic advice and some advice I knew wouldn't work for this particular horse. People do get offended if you reject their advice but training isn't a one size fits all approach and I now have more tools in my kit if I ever have any other problems in the future.

One thing I would say is that establishing pain isn't the cause should be the first thing done not the last, and failing to do so is barbaric 

KS and SI problems don't show up under a normal vet exam as they result in mechanical pain not muscular pain. The pain is very sudden and intense - I would hate to be in a position where I put a horse through this through ignorance and thinking that no immediate back pain meant no back pain at all.

If this was my horse I wouldn't ride until I had established pain was not an issue so I would have full X-Ray's of the back and SI and also either scoping for ulcers or a course of gastroguard.

Please do the right thing by this horse - too many are 'rescued' and rehabilitated and are actually in a worse situation than they started in


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## 9tails (4 November 2015)

H&H don't close threads for what you perceive to be a bit of ugliness.  Not being involved in the process, I actually can't see any ugliness.  I can see why people are incredulous at your supposed experience when you disprove KS because a vet did a "spine check" but no xrays and you don't know about ulcers.


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## Sags_Deer (4 November 2015)

The horse is in pain that is why it is bolting please get it scanned ASAP


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## Fun Times (4 November 2015)

Luci07 said:



			See, I have an issue with the tone of a lot of the responses and how judgemental they were and I have been on here for a long time. Back off! Time was when you could ask a question and have some interesting points raised. Now it seems a lot of people prefer to jump in with criticism. A lot of unpleasant assumptions were made as well. There is a lot of experience on this board and it is really interesting to see what different people think and can offer.  I have seen some very tricky horses come in as projects and I have seen when a pro has turned round to get more advice when the behaviour is well out of the expected range. Good luck OP and I for one would be interested in updates (if you can bear to).
		
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I agree with this. Just what is the point in telling the OP they are out of their depth and don't know what they are doing? If you believe this to be the case, then why not try to help instead of castigate the OP? I agree that in the interests of safety people need to know their limitations but surely we do not all just say "oh I can't do this" everytime something goes wrong? Good luck OP, I would also be interested to know how you get on (literally)!.


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## Equi (4 November 2015)

OP gave no indication to their experience, situation or anything else. To me it sounded like they bought the horse out of pity. I have 20+ years experience and still make mistakes. A recent 9yo loan who was mental, so only stayed 2 months! I realised i had NO idea what i was doing with it despite my years before. Sometimes you have to realise your limitations and not take offence then have a rant about how everyone is picking on you.

And for the record i took a MASSIVE bashing on here for my posts relating to the horse. I know how it feels. But most people were truthful, i was out of my depth.


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## popsdosh (5 November 2015)

Personally I think the OP has totally over reacted . In my experience this type of horse will have already gone through several hands some of them professional none of whom have fixed it . Is it really worth the risk.
 As for the percieved nastiness ,I dont see it but each to there own . Perhaps if the op had mentioned their 'huge experience ' I would have just left it alone. However I assumed if they needed to ask this sort of question they would like the honest answer. Why is it riders have this inbuilt feeling they can cure something that others most likely a lot more experienced can not.
All you shouting about its not like it used to be on here thats because a lot of very experienced posters from the past have tried to pass on some of their knowledge only to end up in situations like a few have on here ! I am afraid some people are only happy to accept the fluffy bunny answers and not be realist and complain if they dont get the answers they want. That is why a lot of very experienced people are no longer posting on here as its not worth their time and effort. You get left with the muppets!or a flock of sheep.


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## popsdosh (5 November 2015)

Crabbypink said:



			Thank you to the last few posters, who were positive. No matter my 30+ years experience, I am still learning. I've never done this particular job with this particular horse, but I do think it is worth trying. I do have deep pockets, Bonkers2, but that isn't the point. I may have to resort to Jason Webb, and that would be OK, but for now, I'm willing to try myself, so long as I think I can make some progress. We have backed way off with this horse, and we are doing a lot of playing, desensitising and just trust development. I would love to say I'd post his progress in a few months time, but it wouldn't be worth the barrage of nasty comments I'd get again. So thanks to everyone who did post something positive. I'll keep your ideas and suggestions on a page, and read them from time to time. For now, though, I'd like this thread to close. I tried to get H&H to delete it, because of the amount of ugliness in it, but so far, no luck. If I end up with a beautiful field ornament, then so be it, but it won't be because I didn't try my hardest. I have all the time in the world, resources, and good people around me. Thanks again, to those who tried to help.
		
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Please point out the ugliness!!!!! Sometimes the truth hurts( Like all of us at some time I am sure you wish you had never seen this one) its not a personal attack on you If you hang around long enough you will see what im getting at .


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## ycbm (5 November 2015)

I think one issue here may be the way people use the word 'bolt' these days. Some of the answers are clearly from people who describe any run forward of a few strides as a bolt. The original post, on the other hand, is about a genuine bolt. The description is 'like a runaway train' as soon as a rider puts their weight on his back.

The known history of this horse is that at nine years old, three attempts have been made to get him ridden, and failed. The dealer most likely thought they could take the horse from an owner they saw as a numpty, get it ridden and make a fat profit. I'm sure they were relieved to be able to pass it on to the OP without making much of a loss. This is a crunch point for me. I don't know any dealers who would pass up the opportunity to make a big profit on an attractive horse. If they have passed it on, then I believe they think it is not sellable ridden.

 The likelihood that at eight or nine when the dealer got it there had been no other previous attempts to break the horse is slim. This is very likely the fifth, sixth, or higher, attempt that has been made to break this horse. The white wither marks may even be where it has reared and gone over backwards in the past.

The question now, assuming that the OP or a 'difficult horse' specialist manages to get it ridden, is whether it will ever be safe to ride when it has such an ingrained bolt reaction to things that hurt or scare it. 

I would love to see the OP post video of the horse being ridden. Unfortunately I think it's more likely she'll be posting her x rays to Facebook.


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## popsdosh (5 November 2015)

Hit it on the head ! I wish there was a like button.
Oh before its misconstrued I was not referring to the horse


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## Luci07 (5 November 2015)

but..... you cannot make a sweeping diagnosis from a paragraph. Rather than jump down the OP's throats, you could ask the question first. I have years and YEARs of experience, yet what it has taught me is how much I don't know. I learnt a lot being on a pro yard and seeing horses coming in for training and reschooling, but most certainly don't have all the answers. Seen 2 exceptionally tricky youngsters, 1 of whom had clearly been started so badly that he was terrified and would bolt, properly. That took nearly a year to sort out but he was worth it. His was a major trust issue and you would never know it now to see him working. Had the privilege of watching a really good racehorse backer come in to assess and work with him and he picked up, tested and amended numerous methods to find a way of getting through. The other was backed in the same way, but has always been hot and tricky and that would seem to be her breeding. Both have extreme reactions, both had a completely clean bill of health from the vets.  Asking questions on forums like these are a good way of expanding your knowledge and thinking outside the box and long may it continue


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## popsdosh (5 November 2015)

Who Jumped down the ops throat ? ,I guess you need to go back and look at what was written. maybe the OP over reacted a little not hearing what they wanted too.
I merely said in my experience and I stand by it, a nine yo ( by no means a youngster ) and especially a gelding will not be something that is easily fixed or indeed may never be! My concern was for others safety not to start an argument. Maybe the next thread on here will be rider killed trying to sort out unrideable 9yo. As I stated earlier a horse that is a true' bolter ' will always do it when the correct stimulant is there and in my opinion can never be trusted!!!!
Frankly if the OP was as experienced as they say they would not be running down others opinions so readily.


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## SpringArising (5 November 2015)

popsdosh said:



			I sometime despair at people thinking they can sort out what others cant.Invariably its those who are least capable and knowledgeable! Sorry OP but the fact you have to come on here to ask others how to manage it is testament to why I despair!
		
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popsdosh said:



			I think your deluding yourself !!! LOL The white scars are just as likely to be from a badly fitting rug as a poor fitting saddle and maybe he jumps out of the sand school out of fear. What worries me most you are expecting somebody else to risk their neck!!!! More fool them
		
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FrankieCob said:



			Because the OP wants to ride him and everyone always thinks they can do a better job than the one before them who failed
		
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popsdosh said:



			You onbviously have so much experience to have to ask the question. All the replies so far have been about trying to save yours and anybody elses neck. It is so charming when new posters on here are so sure of themselves and rude.
		
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popsdosh said:



			Personally I think the OP has totally over reacted . As for the percieved nastiness ,I dont see it but each to there own . Perhaps if the op had mentioned their 'huge experience ' I would have just left it alone. However I assumed if they needed to ask this sort of question they would like the honest answer. Why is it riders have this inbuilt feeling they can cure something that others most likely a lot more experienced can not.

 am afraid some people are only happy to accept the fluffy bunny answers and not be realist and complain if they dont get the answers they want. That is why a lot of very experienced people are no longer posting on here as its not worth their time and effort. You get left with the muppets!or a flock of sheep.
		
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You can't see how you were rude? Really?

No one would have had an issue with your 'advice', but your TOV was totally snobbish.

OP, does the horse let you mount bareback? I'd do lots and lots of desensitisation work in the school if I were you, once you've ruled out any actual pain.


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## Luci07 (5 November 2015)

popsdosh said:



			Who Jumped down the ops throat ? ,I guess you need to go back and look at what was written. maybe the OP over reacted a little not hearing what they wanted too.
I merely said in my experience and I stand by it, a nine yo ( by no means a youngster ) and especially a gelding will not be something that is easily fixed or indeed may never be! My concern was for others safety not to start an argument. Maybe the next thread on here will be rider killed trying to sort out unrideable 9yo. As I stated earlier a horse that is a true' bolter ' will always do it when the correct stimulant is there and in my opinion can never be trusted!!!!
Frankly if the OP was as experienced as they say they would not be running down others opinions so readily.
		
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I think if you re read some of your posts you will see what I mean. I didn't read this as the OP running down opinions but asking for ideas.


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## EQUIDAE (5 November 2015)

Luci07 said:



			but..... you cannot make a sweeping diagnosis from a paragraph.
		
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Unfortunately when the op trickle feeds this is what happens


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## ILuvCowparsely (5 November 2015)

Crabbypink said:



			We've recently taken on a project horse - 9 years old, and cannot be ridden (yet). Had vet check him out - he appears to have no health problems. Some white scarring on withers says he may have had a bad saddle. He is polite and kind on the ground, and learns quickly. We've taught him to lunge and he goes for walks around the village. He's not frightened by much. But ... we can't mount him. He's been lunged with properly fitting tack, and appears to have no problem with that. We put sand-stuffed jods on his back, and he got used to that. But trying to mount him is like trying to mount a runaway train. He bolts! My yard manager leaned over his saddle today, and he bolted, then got his feet all tangled up. I sincerely believe he's had a bad experience, and not been ridden since. But can anyone give me some good advice on how to go about gaining this boy's confidence? He's just so beautiful and capable - it would be such a waste to never ride this lovely horse!
		
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 I think you need to take him right back to square one and just   get him used to the mounting block.  Sounds to me that he has been injured or frightened and you need some outside professional help.  Forget actual leaning over him just get him used to other things, just standing by mounting block feed him there too etc have one person each side holding him soothing him etc. Sounds like you need someone like Chris Haywood or Richard max well two very different aspects

 Maybe actual have the mounting block to the side of him and him facing a mirror, like a school mirrors - so he cannot run forward but he can see see you mean no harm


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## maccachic (5 November 2015)

Please provide updates I enjoy working with challenging horses - schoolmaster bore me.  Im 100% self taught and well my country is a bit more DIY, I love learning new stuff and as soon as you think you know everything is the time you should give up.

My last horse threw everything at me and there were days where I questioned what I was doing with her.  She taught me an incredible amount and I recently did a Cowboy challenge which reinforced just how far we had come and achieved.  If you always keep your safety at the front of the mind and are good at reading horses you can work out stuff yourself along with input from others, clinics, online readings etc etc.

Best just skim over the unhelpful posts and store away anything that may be handy at some point. 

Good luck.


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## old hand (6 November 2015)

I bought a five year old that did that very cheaply.  I had a stable without an overhang and a ring on the wall.  I tied him up to it with a haynet for a while, removed the haynet and got the mounting block.  Spent half an hour or so standing on it , waving my arms, feeding him nuts, waving my arms some more, banging him all over with my hands etc etc.  i then mounted him thirty or forty times, sliding straight off to start with.  Then progressed to mounting the other side.  This all took about four or five hours.  the next day we repeated the process at the main gate, it took only a minute or so to mount and the problem was solved.  He had bolted a round a yard with someone who had their foot jammed in the stirrup which is what seemed to have frightened him.  I did this the day after he was delivered to me by a local dealer who refused to sell him to a client, he rang me as this horse also jumped out over six foot hedges etc and we came to a no come backs deal over him.  Smashing horse won area dressage, eventing and show jumped to 1.30m  but no illusions it could all have gone badly wrong and I would have had to make a nasty decision if he was still dangerous.  Oh and I traffic proofed him too, he spun and bolted over a six foot hedge at the dealer's yard, towed him off my Grade A until he shut up. He became safe enough for kids to ride eventually ( well five years later!!) and was an absolute gem to look after, shoe etc.


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