# Teaching qualifications



## Daisy1905 (24 March 2016)

Could someone tell me which qualifications I would need to start teaching please? 

Many thanks


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## JustKickOn (24 March 2016)

UKCC Level 2 to be an accredited trainer by the affiliated bodies, if I remember correctly! 
UKCC Level 2 or have passed your BHS PTT exam as a minimum to join the BHS register of instructors.


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## Farma (24 March 2016)

Bhs ptt is the most recognised by employers, you can gain the ukcc level 2 after the ptt by completing a portfolio. You will need bhs stage 1 and 2 before you can take the ptt as well as add on courses inc ride and road safety, child protection and first aid.


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## JustKickOn (24 March 2016)

Farma said:



			Bhs ptt is the most recognised by employers, you can gain the ukcc level 2 after the ptt by completing a portfolio. You will need bhs stage 1 and 2 before you can take the ptt as well as add on courses inc ride and road safety, child protection and first aid.
		
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This so the process is..
Stage 1 complete 
Riding and Road Safety
Stage 2 complete
PTT complete exam - successful completion means you can become registered which will provide you with insurance etc.
To join the register you will need to have a BHS First Aid or first aid at work (level 3 minimum) qualification, safeguarding and protecting children qualification and a disclosure and barring service check. 
With the PTT confirmation you receive a coaching portfolio to complete in your own time and add in paperwork from the exam. Completion and submission of the portfolio means your eligible to gain your UKCC Level 2. 
You can then go on to take your Stage 3 complete and the combination of the stage 3, PTT and coaching portfolio awards you as a BHS Assistant Instructor (BHSAI).


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## Red-1 (25 March 2016)

Daisy1905 said:



			Could someone tell me which qualifications I would need to start teaching please? 

Many thanks
		
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Hi, to start teaching you need nothing but third party insurance, and to inform the tax man.

Before I am lynched I do have the BHSII, and UKCC level 3, but have found that often who the most talented teacher is does not depend on whether or not they have sat an exam.

If you need insurance have a look at Julie Andrews Insurance brokers. She does not need you to be qualified, and will quote over the phone. 

Personally I am insured with BHS, but TBH her quote was not THAT different when you take into account all of the courses etc that you take.

I think a lot depends on your market. Locally the Pony Club will take unqualified people at rallys, and you are covered by their insurance. You do need to have another way of 'proving' your worth for them though, such as a successful competition record.


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## EventingMum (25 March 2016)

Red-1 said:



			Hi, to start teaching you need nothing but third party insurance, and to inform the tax man.

Before I am lynched I do have the BHSII, and UKCC level 3, but have found that often who the most talented teacher is does not depend on whether or not they have sat an exam.

If you need insurance have a look at Julie Andrews Insurance brokers. She does not need you to be qualified, and will quote over the phone. 

Personally I am insured with BHS, but TBH her quote was not THAT different when you take into account all of the courses etc that you take.

I think a lot depends on your market. Locally the Pony Club will take unqualified people at rallys, and you are covered by their insurance. You do need to have another way of 'proving' your worth for them though, such as a successful competition record.
		
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As far as I'm aware Pony Club coaches now need to be accredited, not necessarily have formal qualifications but have attended training days and have first aid qualification, PVG and safeguarding children certificates.


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## Shay (25 March 2016)

To be on the accredited PC Instructors list - yes and quite right too.  But I do know some branches will use anyone to teach if it keeps instructor costs down.

OP - you will have a broader range of possible clients if you are starting out and have a formal qualification.  You can also charge more for your services.  I know there are great instructors out there with nothing more than massive personal experience and a list of recommendations as long as your arm and that is great.  But being an accredited instructor gives everyone a level of assurance and peace of mind in this very litigious world.


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## Daisy1905 (27 March 2016)

Interesting, thanks everyone. It wouldn't be as a main job at a riding but teaching private riders on a freelance basis. 

Do people tend to favour qualifications or show results?


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## Tnavas (27 March 2016)

Daisy1905 said:



			Interesting, thanks everyone. It wouldn't be as a main job at a riding but teaching private riders on a freelance basis. 

Do people tend to favour qualifications or show results?
		
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Depends very much on the ego of the person you are teaching - some just loved to be praised, especially by someone who competes successfully who sadly not all make the best coaches. Others love to be taught - to actually learn something, where praise is given as and when due.

When researching instruction from anyone for any particular discipline/sport I would first go to the person that has proved to a board of examiners that they can do the job. Then experience and personality may then decide who I get.

For me Professional qualifications mean a lot - I obtained my residency in NZ because I was a qualified riding instructor.


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## Daisy1905 (21 April 2016)

Red-1 said:



			Hi, to start teaching you need nothing but third party insurance, and to inform the tax man.

Before I am lynched I do have the BHSII, and UKCC level 3, but have found that often who the most talented teacher is does not depend on whether or not they have sat an exam.

If you need insurance have a look at Julie Andrews Insurance brokers. She does not need you to be qualified, and will quote over the phone. 

Personally I am insured with BHS, but TBH her quote was not THAT different when you take into account all of the courses etc that you take.

I think a lot depends on your market. Locally the Pony Club will take unqualified people at rallys, and you are covered by their insurance. You do need to have another way of 'proving' your worth for them though, such as a successful competition record.
		
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What would be seen as a successful record? Competed at Championships/National or trained youngsters up? Or years of going up the levels?


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## JFTDWS (21 April 2016)

Daisy1905 said:



			Interesting, thanks everyone. It wouldn't be as a main job at a riding but teaching private riders on a freelance basis. 

Do people tend to favour qualifications or show results?
		
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One of my trainers has no qualifications.  The other I have just found out does, but I've been training with him for years, so clearly not a factor in my decision to try him, or stick with him.  

I generally favour those who are not qualified through the BHS, or for whom that is not now their major selling point, particularly for flatwork.  Any numpty who can sit on a horse fairly sensibly can become an AI with enough effort, in my experience.  Many of the AIs round here are super for teaching little kids to play ponies, or nervous adults, but wouldn't know where to start with real work - which is fine for most as they market themselves appropriately.  

I'd personally rather someone who has a competitive record or who has a training record worthy of note to try them out.  If they can't teach well too, I just won't return!


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## be positive (21 April 2016)

Daisy1905 said:



			What would be seen as a successful record? Competed at Championships/National or trained youngsters up? Or years of going up the levels?
		
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It depends on where you see your target market potential clients coming from, a nervous novice will not care about your competition experience or record bringing on young horses, they will want a sympathetic trainer who can guide them through issues and "hold their hand" while doing so, if you are more interested in training competition riders then they will want proof that you can either do it yourself or that you have trained other riders successfully. 

I think as you are asking these questions you probably have little experience of competing at any level or being trained by people at a higher level so probably your best bet to get started is through the BHS route where you can learn how to teach, gain the experience required and  find out which direction you want to take, if I am wrong and you have competed at Nat champs then I apologise for my assumptions.


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## Tnavas (21 April 2016)

JFTD said:



			One of my trainers has no qualifications.  The other I have just found out does, but I've been training with him for years, so clearly not a factor in my decision to try him, or stick with him.  

I generally favour those who are not qualified through the BHS, or for whom that is not now their major selling point, particularly for flatwork.  Any numpty who can sit on a horse fairly sensibly can become an AI with enough effort, in my experience.  Many of the AIs round here are super for teaching little kids to play ponies, or nervous adults, but wouldn't know where to start with real work - which is fine for most as they market themselves appropriately.  

I'd personally rather someone who has a competitive record or who has a training record worthy of note to try them out.  If they can't teach well too, I just won't return!
		
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Do remember that the AI is only the first step in the teaching ladder, of course more people will pass this level, then as they move up the ladder each will begin to specialise.

Over the decades I've found that the majority of succesful riders don't make the best coaches. Many are incapable of passing on their knowledge in a way the average rider can understand, and do remember the majority of riders are just average. Many lack empathy with riders who are struggling with their confidence. And many are too focused on their own career to wholeheartedly be involved with their students career.


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## lindsay1993 (21 April 2016)

I have had a number of different instructors. One a current 3* eventer, previously competing at 4*, who has no official qualifications--- it was awful. She couldn't get her point across and I struggled to understand what she meant. I'm a pretty competent rider & got totally lost with her so didn't go back. She had an awful attitude and made me feel small as I couldn't ride to 'her' standard. 

Another was a fully BHS qualified trainer--- very highly recommended, but I never felt I had any direction in my lessons. I didn't really learn anything and didn't have any enjoyment. She just took the money and barked orders at me. Spent most of the time walking and trotting in different shapes! Felt like the early days of pony club again. 

Current trainer runs a small but successful riding centre as well as backing youngsters and currently competing up to BE100 with her own horses. She has trained with some well known dressage riders and has also evented to the highest level. She is amazing!! We always have a point to our lessons, she understands my horse and I. She has taught me things in a very simple way, that are actually quite complex. She is very sympathetic and is always aware of my horses 'quirks'. She is really pushing me at the minute and is always sending me progress reports via facebook with so much enthusiasm and encouragement. I feel we do a lot more complex 'real' work. I have no idea what qualifications she has & quite frankly couldn't care less. We just work together so well!!


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## JFTDWS (21 April 2016)

Tnavas said:



			Do remember that the AI is only the first step in the teaching ladder, of course more people will pass this level, then as they move up the ladder each will begin to specialise.
		
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Irrelevant - as far as I'm concerned, they're on the wrong ladder if that's the only thing to their name!


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## ILuvCowparsely (21 April 2016)

Daisy1905 said:



			Could someone tell me which qualifications I would need to start teaching please? 

Many thanks
		
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In my day stage one then 2 and then 3 which is the stable management part of the Assistant instructor,  You can either be a working pupil and earn your training or pay to train ( well you did when i did my BHS exams ).  

They are strict with the level of judging and if you make a simple mistake or over look something you will fail,  Both  trainers who come here  are like me BHS and I would not have anyone not BHS qualified as it will effect our  insurance,  In the event of accident or injury too horse or rider, though we are not BHS approved  ( too much bumph to be ) it is still run along the lines of BHS.

The only one not BHS is the carriage drive trainer but she still holds exams.   

I  know alot of people don't care for a qualified trainer but they are qualified for a reason, make sure you look into insurance and costs if yuour going mobile to other yards as  when there are things like strangles  you have to be careful.


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## Tnavas (22 April 2016)

JFTD said:



			Irrelevant - as far as I'm concerned, they're on the wrong ladder if that's the only thing to their name!
		
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Not with you on this comment - you have to start somewhere and to brand all AI's as only fit to teach beginners and nervous adults is being rather narrow minded.

I only have my AI as far as teaching qualifications go but I have taught riders who have represented New Zealand and one has passed A & H with Honours. The AI gives a good foundation for a teaching career - not everyone has the time and finances to continue their teaching training.

Would you go to the man down the road who happens to have a good medical encyclopedia for your treatment or a qualified doctor. Would you send your kids to school to be taught by people with just experience to their name - and remember that experience alone means nothing - it depends on its quality!


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## Tnavas (22 April 2016)

HGA-12 said:



			In my day stage one then 2 and then 3 which is the stable management part of the Assistant instructor,  You can either be a working pupil and earn your training or pay to train ( well you did when i did my BHS exams ).  

They are strict with the level of judging and if you make a simple mistake or over look something you will fail,  Both  trainers who come here  are like me BHS and I would not have anyone not BHS qualified as it will effect our  insurance,  In the event of accident or injury too horse or rider, though we are not BHS approved  ( too much bumph to be ) it is still run along the lines of BHS.

The only one not BHS is the carriage drive trainer but she still holds exams.   

I  know alot of people don't care for a qualified trainer but they are qualified for a reason, make sure you look into insurance and costs if yuour going mobile to other yards as  when there are things like strangles  you have to be careful.
		
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HGA-12 - you don't fail an exam for one mistake! You fail if overall you do not meet the criteria. As an examiner I'm often faced with the dilemma of should a pass or fail be given. You look at all the marks the rider has achieved and decide - if this rider carried on improving along sound lines would they benefit from passing. I do fail some at times and its one of the hardest parts of the exam to do so - but it's never ever for just one thing the rider did wrong


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## Mooseontheloose (22 April 2016)

Anyone starting to teach should remember that these are litigious days and that the most important thing is to have insurance. Although it is possible to get insurance without qualifications it seems to me that there is an arrogance that no one needs to learn coaching technique, have child protection and safeguarding skills, have CRB (or whatever it's now called) or otherwise attend CPD during their working time.
I taught without qualifications, starting as a PC instructor and at quite a late stage did UKCC coaching cert.
Although the level we were working at teaching was quite low, the tips, hints, techniques I learnt have certainly stood  me in good stead. It's like taking my HGV after thirty years of driving, it certainly brought me up short on some bad habits.
The BHS (and I don't have formal BHS quals) is the national body for coaching qualifications in this country. You couldn't set up as an accountant without your skills being checked by the governing body, so what makes people think they can do a good job with a person, a horse and possibly a cross country course without going through a few relatively simple procedures themselves?
If I was starting again I would certainly do my levels, probably through the disciplines or through the BHS, simply because I think you owe it to your clients to be as good as you can, as up to date as possible, and to be safety aware without being risk averse.
After nearly fifty years I have seen wonderful teaching from young, non-qualified enthusiastic teachers and some dreadful coaching from Olympic riders. Because you CAN do it doesn' t mean necessarily you can teach it. 
One thing that is certainly lacking in the competitive world today, and you can see it at every level, is a lack of basic training. There are some wonderful riders but there is also some awful riding at quite high levels in all disciplines.
There is also a lack of basic horsecare training in many areas. How many horses are broken by lack of knowledge of basic fittening, balance, competition care?
Coaching, teaching, instructing, call it what you will, there is no room for ignorance or arrogance wherever you're coming from.  Being prepared to sit exams, be criticised, being self aware, self evaluating, planning - some may think it rubbish. I don't.


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## ArcticFox (22 April 2016)

interesting thread as I have just done BHS exams. 

why did I choose them?
so it goes back a couple of years.  I have ridden all my life and competed to a high level (represented my country many moons ago at SJ before moving to Eventing - and evented up to Intermediate/CCI1*). As a personal goal last year I decided that it would be fun, challenging and interesting to gain some horse related qualifications, so after looking into it I decided on doing my BHS stages. 

Last March to August I sat my stage 1-3.  I received no feedback each time but passed all completely on first attempt.  
Honestly I thought I would fail the lunging of the stage 3, but I controlled the horse well and did what I do with my own horses.  I have a lot of experience which I think made the whole process better.  

Since sitting my Stage 3, I now have the bug to continue and plan to sit my Stage 4 later this year (and it would be amazing to pass on first attempt but I suspect I won't! anyone any advice?)

to add to this I then also decided to aim for my PTT, I have been teaching at the local PC, and I also passed this on first attempt last week (I am super thrilled by this!) so I am now eligible to register as an instructor. 

Having been through this experience I think it is a bit narrow minded to brand everyone as being rubbish if you only have your BHS and no other qualifications!  Its a really good learning experience doing them,  Yes you can't guarantee that all instructors are good instructors, but that is not related to the exam itself - that is the same in any walk of life.  Some mechanics are good, others aren't. 

What I am trying to say is that experience counts, but having qualifications will open many more doors.  I was contacted after completing my first 1* to be asked if I gave lessons (one person in the last year), and since my PTT I have been contacted (in the last week) by a couple of people asking for lessons purely from posting on my facebook page that I am now qualified (not yet registered)!  

Its probably not a useful post this!


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## Mooseontheloose (22 April 2016)

I think it's very useful. I do think I'm a much better coach for my experience, and also because I'm not now trying to be a competitor as well. I can give all my attention to my pupils and take time with them.
When I was competing I always had at the back of my mind that I needed to get stuff done with my own horses. It was also too easy to just get on things and ride them, rather than work out strategies and techniques for the rider to use. 
Of course it's useful to get on a horse sometimes, but really, if you can't see what the problems are from close observation you really do need to learn a bit more.
I do wonder sometimes that those who rubbish BHS qualifications (and that includes some PC top brass!), how they would cope under exam conditions, with a lesson plan to work out and stick to, unwilling riding school horses in some cases, and then at the end of it give evaluation of the lesson.
Sometimes you need to stand back and say, I didn't do/explain that very well! 
Being prepared to do BHS/UKCC etc shows a willingness to accept certain discipline, take some criticism, and to work hard towards it.
That you were not given feedback is bad, I think now it's much more important. Certainly as an assessor a great deal of my teaching observation from those on high involves how the feedback is given and the quality of it.
Good luck with your teaching. I think it's one of the most rewarding things I've done, certainly beats winning a few rosettes and thinking I'm the dog's wotsits!


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## Crackerz (22 April 2016)

For me, experience and proven in the competition area i am aiming at/competing at is far more important than any BHS exam.
I don't think out RC uses any BHS qualified instructors yet all our trainers are brilliant and our teams do very well. All the clinics are well supported too.


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## Mooseontheloose (22 April 2016)

Of course, there are brilliant coaches unqualfied. However, it is, as I pointed out, a litigious age, and coaches who are not properly covered may find themselves with a big bill.
There is no reason nowadays, with UKCC through the disciplines, the ABRS, the BHS, for anyone to be unqualified. Of course it costs money. I gave up competing for some time to pay for mine. 
And, again, proven competition experience does not necessarily make a good coach. Of course it helps to know how a fence should be ridden or a dressage movement to be carried out. You also have to be able to communicate this.
Looking at top coaches, Yogi Breisner, Ian Stark, Caroline Moore - they all have BHS qualifications after their name. It's good enough for them.


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## JFTDWS (22 April 2016)

Tnavas said:



			Not with you on this comment - you have to start somewhere and to brand all AI's as only fit to teach beginners and nervous adults is being rather narrow minded.

I only have my AI as far as teaching qualifications go but I have taught riders who have represented New Zealand and one has passed A & H with Honours. The AI gives a good foundation for a teaching career - not everyone has the time and finances to continue their teaching training.

Would you go to the man down the road who happens to have a good medical encyclopedia for your treatment or a qualified doctor. Would you send your kids to school to be taught by people with just experience to their name - and remember that experience alone means nothing - it depends on its quality!
		
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Actually, if you read my comment, I said that if the AI qualification (or further down that line) is *all *they have to their name, I'm not interested.  I don't believe the BHS standards are particularly "good" and I'm certainly not going to pick an instructor based on them.  

All the AI tells me is that you can ride a safe horse in basic paces and over a few small fences, pass a theory exam (where some of the theory is wrong) and can jump through their teaching hoops.  That's great - but  on its own, it really only does qualify you to teach people who want to learn how to do rising trot or canter a circle.  

If you've competed successfully to Advanced and have your AI, great.  But equally, I'll try them without the AI, and see for myself if they can teach, because it's not the AI I'm interested in.

Tnavas, you speak of teaching like it is a "one size fits all" skill.  It isn't - people learn in different ways, and very few teachers suit all students.  You cannot presume that someone who has a teaching qualification will suit your style anyway - it's a question of trying them out and seeing how they feel.  In which case, why limit myself who have jumped through the BHS hoops?

I've ridden with AIs who I feel have as much to offer as my dog sitting by the fence.  I know people who are AIs, IIs and Is, who are incredible riders and trainers - but to me, their value largely is in their extra-BHS training.

I'd say the AI is the man with the medical encyclopaedia actually.  The doctor is the (wo)man who has proved themselves in the real world.  And I would send any kids of mine to a school with unqualified teachers who are good at what they do, and who know their stuff.  I actually have a massive issue with the precedence given to teaching qualifications over actual knowledge of the subject - and I am in a position to judge this in my field and current line of work.  Given the choice of a science teacher who really knows the content because they've done it, or the one who knows the text book and aced their teaching course, I'll take the former - because you can't teach something you don't actually understand yourself.

Ultimately, we're not going to agree on this.  As far as I'm concerned, you are perfectly entitled to think the BHS are the best thing since sliced bread.  You are not entitled to shout down other opinions though, and I'm perfectly entitled to think the BHS qualifications are not the mark of a good instructor.


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## Mooseontheloose (22 April 2016)

I would judge a coach by their pupils, rather than by their own achievements. After all, is Federer coached by a better tennis player than himself?


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## daffy44 (22 April 2016)

Interesting thread, I am a freelance instructor, I fell into it as more and more people asked for my help.  I did my stages 1 and 2 when i was 16/17yrs old, and I have to admit they really didnt engage me, and I certainly didnt feel inspired to progress any further within the BHS, this is not to say there are not great BHS instructors, but it wasnt for me.  I did however want to have some qualifications, and I did my UKCC level 2, and this i really enjoyed, I also have insurance (essential) i keep my first aid qualifications up to date, and I also have my child protection course.  I really think the first aid and insurance aspect is vital for anyone who teaches.  But my clients come to me because of my experience and results, not for my qualifications, but I do think both aspects are important.


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## ILuvCowparsely (22 April 2016)

Tnavas said:



			HGA-12 - you don't fail an exam for one mistake! You fail if overall you do not meet the criteria. As an examiner I'm often faced with the dilemma of should a pass or fail be given. You look at all the marks the rider has achieved and decide - if this rider carried on improving along sound lines would they benefit from passing. I do fail some at times and its one of the hardest parts of the exam to do so - but it's never ever for just one thing the rider did wrong
		
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Depends on  examiner and what mistake(s) it is 

one girl on our course failed as
 she failed not noticing another candidate put brushing boots on back to front and she stood behind to brush the tail and also knelt down.

 I am with you though if I was a parent I would not want to send my child or family memember to someone and pay them good money if they have no knowledge to back it up.  Some say it means nothing but it means you can get a job as a proper qualified teacher at a riding school or otherwise, as you see many establishments asking for AI or above.  You never see them say * wanted *  unknown person with no reference of being qualified to come to our riding school and teach. 

Not sure how it is in NZ Tnavas  but our BHS also taught you some first aid, well did in my time.  How does it work over there if say someone who is not qualified to teach  does teach etc, how do they get insurance etc.  I mean surely the insurance company want to know the person they are insuraing is capable of the job.


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## ILuvCowparsely (22 April 2016)

JFTD said:



			All the AI tells me is that you can ride a safe horse in basic paces and over a few small fences, pass a theory exam
		
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OMG!!!!  what  rubbish!!!!!   Our horses at Park farm were far  from plods, some were x race horses which would bolt,  AND we had to jump courses of 3.9 and above and cross country without saddles also  jump  over a grid crossing our stirrups  and un crossing as we went through ther 8 jumps.    One of the worst was going though the grid without a saddle and touching the toes throughout,  very easy to judge when you have not ever been trained on the BHS course  you do not know the half f what we have been through


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## ILuvCowparsely (22 April 2016)

Tnavas said:



			Depends very much on the ego of the person you are teaching - some just loved to be praised, especially by someone who competes successfully who sadly not all make the best coaches. Others love to be taught - to actually learn something, where praise is given as and when due.

When researching instruction from anyone for any particular discipline/sport I would first go to the person that has proved to a board of examiners that they can do the job. Then experience and personality may then decide who I get.

For me Professional qualifications mean a lot - I obtained my residency in NZ because I was a qualified riding instructor.
		
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  Judging by previous photos Tnavas Their position speaks for itself lol


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## JFTDWS (22 April 2016)

HGA-12 said:



			OMG!!!!  what  rubbish!!!!!   Our horses at Park farm were far  from plods, some were x race horses which would bolt,  AND we had to jump courses of 3.9 and above and cross country without saddles also  jump  over a grid crossing our stirrups  and un crossing as we went through ther 8 jumps.    One of the worst was going though the grid without a saddle and touching the toes throughout,  very easy to judge when you have not ever been trained on the BHS course  you do not know the half f what we have been through
		
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Well none of that is on the syllabus for s3 which requires only SJ to a metre and XC to 90cm, so I'd say your experiences are completely irrelevant to my point - you might wish to read the syllabus for the current s3 before calling "rubbish" on something you clearly aren't familiar with in its current form.  The flatwork syllabus for s3 is, to my mind, incredibly basic.

FWIW, I used to jump down bounce grids taking my jacket off and hanging on the fence, then picking it up and putting it back on the other way.  I don't think wee tricks like that are remotely relevant to teaching skills.


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## ILuvCowparsely (23 April 2016)

JFTD said:



			Well none of that is on the syllabus for s3 which requires only SJ to a metre and XC to 90cm, so I'd say your experiences are completely irrelevant to my point - you might wish to read the syllabus for the current s3 before calling "rubbish" on something you clearly aren't familiar with in its current form.  The flatwork syllabus for s3 is, to my mind, incredibly basic.

FWIW, I used to jump down bounce grids taking my jacket off and hanging on the fence, then picking it up and putting it back on the other way.  I don't think wee tricks like that are remotely relevant to teaching skills.
		
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So you think the course is ONLY up to what is demanded and nothing more????   That would be funny if I had not lived through 18 months going through what I did.

Whether the s3 syllabus has changed since I did mine way before you were born clearly or what is in it is now not all you do in your training, your trick as you call it was one of the first things we did it is the easiest to do.   


So your argument is based on what is written down not what the BHS training school teach you. it is pointless discussing this in a remotely intelligent way, you at your young age have clearly made your little mind up that the BHS is a waste of time and resources.  

Since you have no idea what it is like to be in the BHS system of training and are basing it on what you read instead of living it and I am sure other BHS in training and already working will have a different opinion than your narrow view. Lets see if any other BHS trainers think their qualifications are worth nothing


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## Tnavas (23 April 2016)

HGA-12 said:



			OMG!!!!  what  rubbish!!!!!   Our horses at Park farm were far  from plods, some were x race horses which would bolt,  AND we had to jump courses of 3.9 and above and cross country without saddles also  jump  over a grid crossing our stirrups  and un crossing as we went through ther 8 jumps.    One of the worst was going though the grid without a saddle and touching the toes throughout,  very easy to judge when you have not ever been trained on the BHS course  you do not know the half f what we have been through
		
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I did my teaching exam at Park Farm

And HGA-12 those people who failed would have had far more things wrong than just one - their overall marks would have been too low to allow them to pass. The things you mentioned would just have been the straw that broke the camels back.


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## Tnavas (23 April 2016)

HGA-12 said:



			Depends on  examiner and what mistake(s) it is 

one girl on our course failed as
 she failed not noticing another candidate put brushing boots on back to front and she stood behind to brush the tail and also knelt down.

 I am with you though if I was a parent I would not want to send my child or family memember to someone and pay them good money if they have no knowledge to back it up.  Some say it means nothing but it means you can get a job as a proper qualified teacher at a riding school or otherwise, as you see many establishments asking for AI or above.  You never see them say * wanted *  unknown person with no reference of being qualified to come to our riding school and teach. 

Not sure how it is in NZ Tnavas  but our BHS also taught you some first aid, well did in my time.  How does it work over there if say someone who is not qualified to teach  does teach etc, how do they get insurance etc.  I mean surely the insurance company want to know the person they are insuraing is capable of the job.
		
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I am BHS & ABRS Qualified -- NZ really has only a rudamentary teaching exam system in place


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## Mooseontheloose (23 April 2016)

Both my offspring have BHS, Pony Club and other qualifications and have always had employment. They have walked into jobs in several different countries and have had no problem with work permits because of them. 
If you want to travel and experience other places, environments and jobs then I seriously recommend getting proper qualifications.
As I said earlier, I did my coaching certificates quite late in life and felt it helped enormously to develop self appraisal skills. I'm also an assessor for a training provider and a lot of our training is to give good feedback so that the learner can go away and help themselves, to develop our teaching skills (we have twice yearly observations of our teaching), and training to teach people with special learning needs, autism, dyslexia, dyspraxia, and so on, and to recognise these needs if they have been undiagnosed, so each learner gets the right help.
When I see an instructor standing there shouting 'legs legs legs, sit up, sit down, sit back' as a rider is approaching a large cross country fence I cringe. And that's from an Olympic rider! Not really the way to get the point across.


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## be positive (23 April 2016)

HGA-12 said:



			So you think the course is ONLY up to what is demanded and nothing more????   That would be funny if I had not lived through 18 months going through what I did.

Whether the s3 syllabus has changed since I did mine way before you were born clearly or what is in it is now not all you do in your training, your trick as you call it was one of the first things we did it is the easiest to do.   


So your argument is based on what is written down not what the BHS training school teach you. it is pointless discussing this in a remotely intelligent way, you at your young age have clearly made your little mind up that the BHS is a waste of time and resources.  

Since you have no idea what it is like to be in the BHS system of training and are basing it on what you read instead of living it and I am sure other BHS in training and already working will have a different opinion than your narrow view. Lets see if any other BHS trainers think their qualifications are worth nothing
		
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There is a vast difference between going through a WP or apprenticeship type of training, which is what you did, what I did and many of us on here that are of a different generation went through during our training in order to get started and what is now on offer to students, many will go from stage 1 up to stage 3 while in college, health and safety being at the forefront of the instructors minds nowadays the horses do tend to be ultra safe, the courses geared towards passing on the day not making riders that can ride and cope with tricky situations, most will, unless they have their own horses, have no experience competing other than within the confines of the college, will have never ridden a young or green horse and many may have barely ridden outside of an arena.

I do still value the BHS system, it is consistent, it is assessed by outside examiners and is still an exam that you can fail on the day, unlike many that people take in other walks of life, it is a good starting point along with PC tests and ABRS exams but once you are qualified to BHSAI it is not the end of your learning it is only one step along the way, you can stay in the system going up through to the fellowship or as most of us do we go in different directions, continuing to gain experience and keep our minds open there are many many avenues you can take. 
It is how much you pick up along the way that is going to make you a good instructor/ trainer not what you learnt many years ago while training, that was the foundation you build on not the end result and I think that is what JFTD is trying to get across, she wants an instructor that draws on experience, has had success in whatever field they are in, they also need the ability to articulate, teach and work with clients, having a closed mind will not get anyone very far with horses, I think you learn something new every day if you work with them and listen to them.


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## Mooseontheloose (23 April 2016)

Of course, and that is why registered instructors and coaches have to do regular CPD, to ensure that they do stay up to date.
The worst thing is a closed mind though, and to tar all coaches with the same brush eg 'I wouldn't use a BHSAI' is as closed as 'I would only use a BHSAI'. 
But I think it's quite offensive to rubbish the people who have taken the trouble, time money and effort - and maybe student loan - to gain a start on the ladder.
In the end it will come down to money, and good instructors will never be short of work, however they got there.


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## Roxylola (23 April 2016)

Tnavas said:



			I did my teaching exam at Park Farm

And HGA-12 those people who failed would have had far more things wrong than just one - their overall marks would have been too low to allow them to pass. The things you mentioned would just have been the straw that broke the camels back.
		
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Not totally true, my stage two care was spot on, I failed on health and safety with the lunging (back in the days when lunging was lumped in with care).  The overall mark was fine.  I got in a knot with my lunge line and the one thing that will fail you no matter how good your overall mark is health and safety.  If you make an error that is deemed to be unsafe you will fail.  Mine was continuing to lunge while sorting out my line.  Spent far too much time lunging hot horses who needed to get out and get going, I could sort out my line without incident but it is not "safe technique"


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## JFTDWS (23 April 2016)

HGA-12 said:



			So you think the course is ONLY up to what is demanded and nothing more????   That would be funny if I had not lived through 18 months going through what I did.

Whether the s3 syllabus has changed since I did mine way before you were born clearly or what is in it is now not all you do in your training, your trick as you call it was one of the first things we did it is the easiest to do.   


So your argument is based on what is written down not what the BHS training school teach you. it is pointless discussing this in a remotely intelligent way, you at your young age have clearly made your little mind up that the BHS is a waste of time and resources.  

Since you have no idea what it is like to be in the BHS system of training and are basing it on what you read instead of living it and I am sure other BHS in training and already working will have a different opinion than your narrow view. Lets see if any other BHS trainers think their qualifications are worth nothing
		
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Are you ok, HGA? You seem ridiculously wound up about something which really doesn't affect you.  It's not like I would ever be seeking training from you anyway - I've seen the nonsense you post on here.

I'll ignore your ageist nonsense, but I'm probably not as young as you think I am, and I'm certainly not as ignorant of the BHS training system.  You seem unaware that you do not need to do any course - such as the one you took - to sit (or pass) your stages.  So the syllabus may well be (and is) all that some BHSAIs have been trained to do.

My point about tricks is just that - they are parlour tricks which show only a degree of balance of a rider on a trained horse.  They don't teach the horse anything, they're just for show - I don't see why they're an asset to trainer, outside of the circus.

As for your view of my "little" mind and my narrow viewpoint - I haven't dismissed people who have BHS training in addition to actual skill (Arctic Fox's cruising through her exams is case and point there), but you have dismissed everybody who has trained through classical systems, everybody who doesn't fit into the BHS's idea of horsemanship is about.

As for an intelligent discussion, one of the primary tenets of that is not resorting to ad hominem attacks.  If you can observe basic etiquette, perhaps you'll manage one.


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## ester (23 April 2016)

Reading HGA's post makes it sound like there is just one bhs training school not a plethora of often substandard riding schools with single working pupils and colleges turning people out to just pass what is on the syllabus for the exam. My current instructor is an fbhs, he is doing his ukcc stuff too (not sure why, he must think there is some benefit) but I have also had fab times with instructors with no qualifiactions at all or never got round to asking. 

My local RS/where I spent my formative years is run by someone who has their PC H test, less said about that the better but options were limited . Their second instructor now has most of her 3 at least. I don't think the BHS is all bad but am pleased there are now some alternative options too.


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## ester (23 April 2016)

Mooseontheloose said:



			There is also a lack of basic horsecare training in many areas. How many horses are broken by lack of knowledge of basic fittening, balance, competition care?
		
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See I never really understand this, I have never had any formal training on any horse care but none of it is rocket science and I read a lot  (and then have a sympathetic beast to try things out on!) 
My friend has an AI, she did it while doing A levels and is really a scientist for big pharma, I gave her a shoulder in lesson the other day  .


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## JFTDWS (23 April 2016)

ester said:



			My friend has an AI, she did it while doing A levels and is really a scientist for big pharma, I gave her a shoulder in lesson the other day  .
		
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I gave my BHS-trained mate who's really a scientist a lesson in SI, travers and HP recently too


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## ILuvCowparsely (23 April 2016)

JFTD said:



			Are you ok, HGA? You seem ridiculously wound up about something which really doesn't affect you.  It's not like I would ever be seeking training from you anyway - I've seen the nonsense you post on here.

I'll ignore your ageist nonsense, but I'm probably not as young as you think I am, and I'm certainly not as ignorant of the BHS training system.  You seem unaware that you do not need to do any course - such as the one you took - to sit (or pass) your stages.  So the syllabus may well be (and is) all that some BHSAIs have been trained to do.

My point about tricks is just that - they are parlour tricks which show only a degree of balance of a rider on a trained horse.  They don't teach the horse anything, they're just for show - I don't see why they're an asset to trainer, outside of the circus.

As for your view of my "little" mind and my narrow viewpoint - I haven't dismissed people who have BHS training in addition to actual skill (Arctic Fox's cruising through her exams is case and point there), but you have dismissed everybody who has trained through classical systems, everybody who doesn't fit into the BHS's idea of horsemanship is about.

As for an intelligent discussion, one of the primary tenets of that is not resorting to ad hominem attacks.  If you can observe basic etiquette, perhaps you'll manage one.
		
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 Can you actually say anything nice or do you always have to make snide comments at members being bitchy and rude???


Doesn't effect me calling BHS qualified people inc me   *any numpty*?? how do you work that out.  What would you think if people started critising your riding position from your photos.?  All we can do is teach beginners and nervous people!!!!  what sort of reaction did you expect or does your potrail of an AI and dissing it come so naturaly your not aware some people may take offence to you calling them a numpty and no good for teaching anyone over a beginner level?? 

I was about to quote my comment which when looking back is on another thread oaf, about except those at eventing/high competing  level traning people,  which in that thread I said  would in my opinion is acceptable to teach.  As is a dressage trainer round here who competes for the Uk but has no qualifications to speak of but she teaches high level and passes on her traning through this.


  Making comments like this 



JFTD said:



			One of my trainers has no qualifications.  

  Any numpty who can sit on a horse fairly sensibly can become an AI with enough effort, in my experience.  Many of the AIs round here are super for teaching little kids to play ponies, or nervous adults, but wouldn't know where to start with real work - which is fine for most as they market themselves appropriately.  




I'd personally rather someone who has a competitive record or who has a training record worthy of note to try them out.  If they can't teach well too, I just won't return!
		
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Is IMO disrespecting any qualified trainer who is brilliant and well respected at all levels of their training.  Your comment came across that any tom dick or harry can pass and the AI is easy peasy, which I cannot comment on what is involved now but in my day of passing 1981  was actually  very strict loads involved.  So understand those who have forked out a lot of money - time and hours qualifying, reads a post which makes the AI look a push over and they should not be proud to have achieved it at the end as it is no big deal.

Just for the record before I started my stage 4 we had to teach a lot of dressage movent to client inc shoulder in half pass turn on the fore hand and more.


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## ILuvCowparsely (23 April 2016)

ester said:



			Reading HGA's post makes it sound like there is just one bhs training school not a plethora of often substandard riding schools with single working pupils and colleges turning people out to just pass what is on the syllabus for the exam. My current instructor is an fbhs, he is doing his ukcc stuff too (not sure why, he must think there is some benefit) but I have also had fab times with instructors with no qualifiactions at all or never got round to asking. 

My local RS/where I spent my formative years is run by someone who has their PC H test, less said about that the better but options were limited . Their second instructor now has most of her 3 at least. I don't think the BHS is all bad but am pleased there are now some alternative options too.
		
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Well obviously there are many training schools all over the country and I will not comment on a place I neither trained at or visited, so I speak on what I know  and expeerianced first hand


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## ester (23 April 2016)

But most of the BHSAI qualifiers are unlikely to have attended them, I am really unaware of the concept of a 'training school' as you describe it. 
I'm pretty certain that a quick read through the books to make sure I knew the right (including the incorrect - I still think I would have to give the right answers on the genetics of colour though not what the BHS thinks!) answers I could do my AI pretty swiftly, I agree with JFTD that the requirements are pretty minimal. and yes we are talking about now, as the OP is asking about it now not what she would have had to do in 1981 . Although granted my mother failed hers so I imagine it has gotten easier in time. I don't rate anyone who has an AI without anything else to back it up, I am yet to meet one I have thought is good though I am sure there may be a few out there.


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## JustMe22 (23 April 2016)

HGA-12 said:



			OMG!!!!  what  rubbish!!!!!   Our horses at Park farm were far  from plods, some were x race horses which would bolt,  AND we had to jump courses of 3.9 and above and cross country without saddles also  jump  over a grid crossing our stirrups  and un crossing as we went through ther 8 jumps.    One of the worst was going though the grid without a saddle and touching the toes throughout,  very easy to judge when you have not ever been trained on the BHS course  you do not know the half f what we have been through
		
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Tnavas said:



			I did my teaching exam at Park Farm

And HGA-12 those people who failed would have had far more things wrong than just one - their overall marks would have been too low to allow them to pass. The things you mentioned would just have been the straw that broke the camels back.
		
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I have nothing to add to this discussion except. ..do you mean park farm in West bergholt? I learned to ride there as a kid before we moved to south Africa or anything.


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## ILuvCowparsely (23 April 2016)

ester said:



			But most of the BHSAI qualifiers are unlikely to have attended them, I am really unaware of the concept of a 'training school' as you describe it. 
I'm pretty certain that a quick read through the books to make sure I knew the right (including the incorrect - I still think I would have to give the right answers on the genetics of colour though not what the BHS thinks!) answers I could do my AI pretty swiftly, I agree with JFTD that the requirements are pretty minimal. and yes we are talking about now, as the OP is asking about it now not what she would have had to do in 1981 . Although granted my mother failed hers so I imagine it has gotten easier in time. I don't rate anyone who has an AI without anything else to back it up, I am yet to meet one I have thought is good though I am sure there may be a few out there.
		
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That is maybe the problem now, it may be easier to pass, and maybe new AI candidates are not as thoroughly trained as in the past, but you should not tar everyone with the same brush.  Same like any trader be it painter or  plumber.  Obviously there are some out there who are not or should not be practising, but like Tanvas  our training school was very well respected in those days and passing there always held you in stance as a reference for a job.  

Like anything including driving test they are easy to pass now

OP don't let this thread upset you, if you get the AI you will be respected and be able to make a career out of training or teaching.


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## ILuvCowparsely (23 April 2016)

JustMe22 said:



			I have nothing to add to this discussion except. ..do you mean park farm in West bergholt? I learned to ride there as a kid before we moved to south Africa or anything.
		
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 Near Manningtree you mean???



No Park Farm DucksHill Road in Northwood which sadly is no longer there, amazing huge place by Mount Vernon Hospital.    William old owned it  http://www.companieslist.co.uk/01885118-william-old-building-limited.  They held the Everest Double Glazing championships and more. I still remember Ted Edgard - Caroline Bradly - David Broom and more  standing on my feet at the dance after the event had finsihed for the staff and working pupils.


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## Mooseontheloose (23 April 2016)

I think there seems to be an essential misunderstanding on here.
What do you want your qualifications for? Is it so you can progress through the levels, update your qualifications, learn how to teach as well as to ride, keep up to date with industry standards, be employable in many countries especially USA, be on a professional register with it's subsequent insurance cover, and by dint of getting your II or your I becoming an examiner, assessor, or other training jobs within the industry then you need to go the industry route.
If all you want to do is instruct, then as someone said very early on you get your insurance and away you go. Your results will tell you how good you are. 
The other thing to think about is that freelance teaching is great fun, but get a bad winter, outbreak of strangles or fall out with a couple of clients and you're income will be dropped through the floor. That is the time when it's useful to have other strings to your bow, lecturing at a college, examining,  teaching in a riding school and so on.
I honestly don't think the rudeness that has developed on this thread is necessary.
I think it's madness to teach uninsured these days, and I think a basic coaching certificate, AI or similar is the way forward.
Just looking at the BE Master Coaches list, virtually all of them have recognised qualifications, mainly BHS - they've taken the time to do it, and they're all pretty damn good. It must show sometthing. And you can't progress to II or I or even FBHS until you've started on the bottom rung of the ladder.
Good luck to people who take the trouble, time, money and effort to learn the basics. There's otherwise rather a lack of it about.


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## Tnavas (23 April 2016)

ester said:



			See I never really understand this, I have never had any formal training on any horse care but none of it is rocket science and I read a lot  (and then have a sympathetic beast to try things out on!) 
My friend has an AI, she did it while doing A levels and is really a scientist for big pharma, I gave her a shoulder in lesson the other day  .
		
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Ester - it has been Internationally recognised that the horse management care of many horses, competing at top level is sub standard - too much focus is on riding and too little on the care of the horse.

One of the biggest battles I have with Pony Club members is studying horse care - many are just not interested, all they want to do is ride - you only have to  listen to their poor horses coming back off the cross country phase - Their horses are the ones that suffer because they can't recognise problems, can't fit tack correctly, don't understand how it works & are incapable of putting on a bandage properly. If they are interested then yes a lot can be learned from books, sadly many are not interested

As far as sub standard riding schools go yes there are many sub standard ones around - thats where the BHS exams weed out the poorly trained - sadly for the person that had put their trust in the school. The training they now receive at colleges is much more diverse than in the past when places like Park Farm, Radnage House, Suzzannes, Patchetts, Porlock, Catherston Stud, Fulmer, Crabbet & Talland were the best centres to train in - but even within these centres there were problems - all theoretical and little practical - I remember a young rider who had trained at one of these centres asking me how did she actually make a Kaolin poultice - she had it all written down but had never been allowed near an injured horse to put her training in to practise. 

I was lucky I trained with a FBHS who was at the time also the BHS Chief Examiner. 

Today I had a lovely time examining two groups of Pony Club kids D+ & C and getting the best HM answers I've heard in a long while. I also have an enthusiastic group of B level riders studying for their HM - the first at this level for many years.

Having managed a large riding school for a decade I found that the best instructors I had were the BHS qualified ones - because they taught - I generally found that those with no qualifications just gave instructions - such as "canter in the next corner" - the BHS coaches on the other hand would teach how to canter in the next corner.

Finally as HGA-12 pointed out - THE BHS exams opened the world to us - I got my residency in NZ on my BHS & ABRS qualifications.


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## Tnavas (23 April 2016)

JustMe22 said:



			I have nothing to add to this discussion except. ..do you mean park farm in West bergholt? I learned to ride there as a kid before we moved to south Africa or anything.
		
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Park Farm in Northwood,  UK - a top level training centre.


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## ILuvCowparsely (23 April 2016)

Tnavas said:



			Park Farm in Northwood,  UK - a top level training centre.
		
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You know Park farm has a facebook page


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## FfionWinnie (23 April 2016)

Personally I've always found UKCC instructors more my thing than BHS. The ones I use anyway, seem to be pro riders who have got the UKCC quals to be able to teach.


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## Mooseontheloose (23 April 2016)

It's more based at coaching and possibly more relevant to those who have passed the first stage of learning, whereas at PTT you have to be able to do a lunge lesson and possibly a lead rein lesson, which I've never had to do through UKCC, it also doesn't have much of a care side to it.
I enjoyed doing it and felt it helped  my coaching, but they're not exactly like for like.


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## Goldenstar (23 April 2016)

I had BHS training when I started off .
It's a long time ago so it probably a different world now but I was trained to teach position and still can if I ever felt the need .
And that's what a trained trainer has over many riders turned trainers there's an epidemic of people teaching who don't correct the riders position perhaps because  they have never been trained how to do it .


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## Tnavas (23 April 2016)

FfionWinnie said:



			Personally I've always found UKCC instructors more my thing than BHS. The ones I use anyway, seem to be pro riders who have got the UKCC quals to be able to teach.
		
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Remember that the UKCC qualifications are relatively new! The BHS exams have been around since the 1950's and have proved themselves worldwide. Riders would come from all corners of the earth to study for the exams. When I did my AI there was only the AI & I, no Intermediate. The standard required to pass was far higher than that required now, it dropped when the II was introduced and again when the PTT was introduced. They were the equestrians gateway to the world. 



Goldenstar said:



			I had BHS training when I started off .
It's a long time ago so it probably a different world now but I was trained to teach position and still can if I ever felt the need .
And that's what a trained trainer has over many riders turned trainers there's an epidemic of people teaching who don't correct the riders position perhaps because  they have never been trained how to do it .
		
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Position is everything, regardless of the level of rider. Correct position means a well balanced rider more able to apply the aids effectively. I was lucky with my school ponies and horses, they were chosen carefully, forward, free moving and well schooled. This allowed the riders to sit correctly and apply the aids correctly and to get the desired result. 

How can anyone learn to sit well, in balance if they are thumping the horses sides with every stride. 

Once my riders were competent enough they got to ride the new ponies and horses - horses being TB's off the track. The owner of the school was an ex jockey with brothers still training horses so we had a never ending supply of track failures!


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## FfionWinnie (23 April 2016)

I know they are new and I see that as a benefit. I like forward thinking people not people who've done things like this for 50 years so will continue like this regardless.


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## Goldenstar (23 April 2016)

FfionWinnie said:



			I know they are new and I see that as a benefit. I like forward thinking people not people who've done things like this for 50 years so will continue like this regardless.
		
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I don't think you can say that any one type of trainer will be forward thinking or otherwise .
The most off the wall open minded trainer I have ever worked with is an FBHS .


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## Tnavas (23 April 2016)

FfionWinnie said:



			I know they are new and I see that as a benefit. I like forward thinking people not people who've done things like this for 50 years so will continue like this regardless.
		
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Oh Dear! If its not broke - why try to fix it - lets consider Carl Hester and Charlotte Dujardan - both classical riders of the old school!

So do we have a new way to teach riders? - has the basic position of riders changed? Over the years I've noticed a big change in the attitude and manner of riders - At one time riders listened, co-operated and tried what their coach had suggested. WE now have to deal with spoilt, arrogant brats who think they know it all. Recently one of pony club members answered back to the coach - a one time member of the NZ team, the same child told one of her coaches she didn't know what she was talking about - child is 13 - coach has ridden Badmintona couple of times.

Forward thinking does not have to be outside of the classical - a horse well schooled classically as in Spanish Riding School (the bases of BHS teachings) is a dream to ride. No force needed, no aggressive aids.


Personally I find many of the modern riders very rough, untidy and lacking in fineness. Getting over the jump by any means outweighs the horses comfort, a well balanced rider sitting tight and quiet is far nicer for the horse to cope with.


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## ILuvCowparsely (23 April 2016)

Tnavas said:



			Personally I find many of the modern riders very rough, untidy and lacking in fineness. Getting over the jump by any means outweighs the horses comfort, a well balanced rider sitting tight and quiet is far nicer for the horse to cope with.
		
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Also more pleasing to the eye and spectators


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## ester (23 April 2016)

It might be the internationally recognised standard but some of it is lagging way behind current research and understanding. And that is before we even get started on the colours page in their instruction book yet they also say 'Describe coat colour using the correct terminology' you can bet I'd use correct terminology, yet it would disagree with half of theirs!
I mean seriously, where do you start correcting this! I can understand keeping it simple at this level but at least keep the simple bits correct.






And I am not tarring everyone with the same brush, I am saying that none of the AIs I know that make a living out of teaching are actually good enough themselves/understand things to actually teach.

The RS I speak of with minimally qualified instructors got my friend to AI as a working pupil, she was taught mostly by someone who only had a pony club H test and no competition record/experience so (much as I love my friend) the quality of her teaching will always be limited yet she got her AI first time, so IME BHS exams are not weeding out the poorly trained.

I had no choice but to be interested in the management side of things, no pony of own so a lot of time spent reading partly my Mum's old books (they were funny even back then!) and magazines, we didn't even have the internet to learn stuff from either. That was my pony fix


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## JFTDWS (23 April 2016)

HGA-12 said:



			Can you actually say anything nice or do you always have to make snide comments at members being bitchy and rude???

*Well I don't think I've ever called anyone on here a bitch, or been caught trolling and pretending to be multiple people at once, so I'd say that people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones, should they, HGA?  *

Doesn't effect me calling BHS qualified people inc me   *any numpty*?? how do you work that out.  What would you think if people started critising your riding position from your photos.?  All we can do is teach beginners and nervous people!!!!  what sort of reaction did you expect or does your potrail of an AI and dissing it come so naturaly your not aware some people may take offence to you calling them a numpty and no good for teaching anyone over a beginner level?? 

I was about to quote my comment which when looking back is on another thread oaf, about except those at eventing/high competing  level traning people,  which in that thread I said  would in my opinion is acceptable to teach.  As is a dressage trainer round here who competes for the Uk but has no qualifications to speak of but she teaches high level and passes on her traning through this.


  Making comments like this 
Is IMO disrespecting any qualified trainer who is brilliant and well respected at all levels of their training.  Your comment came across that any tom dick or harry can pass and the AI is easy peasy, which I cannot comment on what is involved now but in my day of passing 1981  was actually  very strict loads involved.  So understand those who have forked out a lot of money - time and hours qualifying, reads a post which makes the AI look a push over and they should not be proud to have achieved it at the end as it is no big deal.

Just for the record before I started my stage 4 we had to teach a lot of dressage movent to client inc shoulder in half pass turn on the fore hand and more.
		
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I'm never sure if you're deliberately obtuse, or just not able to understand things very well.  I think I've made it abundantly clear that my issue is with the low standards of AIs coming through the current system, who have no further experience beyond [current] s3 level.  In my opinion, it is entirely possible for a competent rider to get through the current s3 exams with very little effort.  And it's entirely possible for numpties to get through it with a great deal more effort, but remain utter numpties at the end of it.  You're welcome to disagree, but no amount wailing on your part will change my mind on it.  

As for my opinion affecting how people think of AIs, I'd imagine you're doing a good enough job of that for yourself...


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## Tnavas (23 April 2016)

ester said:



			It might be the internationally recognised standard but some of it is lagging way behind current research and understanding. And that is before we even get started on the colours page in their instruction book yet they also say 'Describe coat colour using the correct terminology' you can bet I'd use correct terminology, yet it would disagree with half of theirs!
I mean seriously, where do you start correcting this! I can understand keeping it simple at this level but at least keep the simple bits correct.






And I am not tarring everyone with the same brush, I am saying that none of the AIs I know that make a living out of teaching are actually good enough themselves/understand things to actually teach.

The RS I speak of with minimally qualified instructors got my friend to AI as a working pupil, she was taught mostly by someone who only had a pony club H test and no competition record/experience so (much as I love my friend) the quality of her teaching will always be limited yet she got her AI first time, so IME BHS exams are not weeding out the poorly trained.

I had no choice but to be interested in the management side of things, no pony of own so a lot of time spent reading partly my Mum's old books (they were funny even back then!) and magazines, we didn't even have the internet to learn stuff from either. That was my pony fix 

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OMG! Can you not comprehend that AI - means assistant instructor - one who still needs to be supervised to enable them to progress! It is the first rung of the teaching ladder - of course there will be some at the lower end and some at the upper end of knowledge and experience. You experience must be very limited - because I have managed to find several very capable AI's that I employed to teach in my riding school in New Zealand!

As far as colours go - while genetic knowledge is far more understood - many of the colours can only be defined by the results of genetic testing. The basics are still there.


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## JFTDWS (23 April 2016)

But even an idiot can understand the difference between dun and buckskin - surely even someone at the lowest level of instructor training can manage that...  The kids in pony club can, if taught the right basics!


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## ester (23 April 2016)

OMG!! Of course I know that, but they still hold a qualification to teach and those I have met in my 11 years of actual ownership shouldn't IMO be teaching and I wish I had found the sort of trainer I have now then. In somerset I was taught by a BHSII but she competed herself and was a good teacher too, and am now taught by and FBHS so it isn't like I don't know how the system works or have no experience of it. Whether they were both good teachers as AIs - likely but I didn't know them then. 

No the basics are not still there. The basics are scarily way off.
You cannot say white, like black is rare (black is rare!?) White has pink or white skin?!?!
Or that Dun sometimes has a dorsal stripe! 
Most colours do not need any sort of genetic testing for identification, particularly the main ones. The trickier ones are what the base colour on a champagne horse is and pearl looking like cream but for the most part I can tell you what colour a horse is without any testing and so can many other people.


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## Tnavas (23 April 2016)

ester said:



			OMG!! Of course I know that, but they still hold a qualification to teach and those I have met in my 11 years of actual ownership shouldn't IMO be teaching and I wish I had found the sort of trainer I have now then. In somerset I was taught by a BHSII but she competed herself and was a good teacher too, and am now taught by and FBHS so it isn't like I don't know how the system works or have no experience of it. Whether they were both good teachers as AIs - likely but I didn't know them then. 

No the basics are not still there. The basics are scarily way off.
You cannot say white, like black is rare (black is rare!?) White has pink or white skin?!?!
Or that Dun sometimes has a dorsal stripe! 
Most colours do not need any sort of genetic testing for identification, particularly the main ones. The trickier ones are what the base colour on a champagne horse is and pearl looking like cream but for the most part I can tell you what colour a horse is without any testing and so can many other people.
		
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Can you tell me which publication you used to show the descriptions of colours as they are certainly not in either of my PC Manuals - UK & NZ

Pure White TB's both dam & foal born at studs just up the road from my home











[/URL]


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## ester (23 April 2016)

That is the BHS stage 1 manual  Since when did PC come into this!?
Cute, which bits have white skin?, unpigmented would be a much more accurate description but pink, never white.
Dominant white horses are also on the would need to test which sort of dominant white if you were interested, but also not all W mutations are testable at times anyway. There have been interesting dominant whites produced from mixed W mutations too of late, particularly in gypsy cobs.

I didn't say white horses didn't exist so I don't really understand your point. I was pointing out that I didn't see black as rare, or that white horses could have white or pink skin .


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## ILuvCowparsely (23 April 2016)

JFTD said:



			I'm never sure if you're deliberately obtuse, or just not able to understand things very well.  I think I've made it abundantly clear that my issue is with the low standards of AIs coming through the current system, who have no further experience beyond [current] s3 level.  In my opinion, it is entirely possible for a competent rider to get through the current s3 exams with very little effort.  And it's entirely possible for numpties to get through it with a great deal more effort, but remain utter numpties at the end of it.  You're welcome to disagree, but no amount wailing on your part will change my mind on it.  

As for my opinion affecting how people think of AIs, I'd imagine you're doing a good enough job of that for yourself...
		
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Name calling is one of your specialities and  I am now using Ui, I think it is a habit of yours to throw insults to me and others, I think you like making a drama out of things or showing your true colours on here  so now at least I don't have to see the snarky comments you seem to make in most of your posts.  We cannot seem to have any discussion without you insulting me or someone else so obviously it comes naturally to you.  It is one thing agreeing or disagreeing  with someone but it is a cheap shot continually throwing personal insults to someone you don't know and it happens all to often with your replies.   There are people out there who do not know the genetics of horse colours, why does that make them idiots? 
   Just as well you are not qualified as no one would live up to your so called superior standards of horsemanship.    Talk about up yourself, it  gets boring repeating myself about how rude your being with people who are learning.  

We are supposed to help - teach and advise  the new kids on the block not slate people calling them numpties or idiots  so ........<click>


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## ILuvCowparsely (23 April 2016)

Tnavas said:



			Can you tell me which publication you used to show the descriptions of colours as they are certainly not in either of my PC Manuals - UK & NZ

Pure White TB's both dam & foal born at studs just up the road from my home











[/URL]
		
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Tnavas
 I been wondering as I have taught many a disable client as we had some horses who acted different when they had dissabled riders on them in the riding school.  Do you ever get any dissabled students coming through the system over there.?  

We had a lovely girl at Fulmer who was paralized below the waist and had her stirrups tied to the girth but she rode so well and  it was a livery horse belonging to another lady, this lovely horse changed and knew when she was on board and responded to her weight shift ( which horses do ) but she was brilliant in dressage this girl. How she stayed on and sat so still was really impressive in canter and jumping


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## ILuvCowparsely (23 April 2016)

Tnavas said:



			OMG! Can you not comprehend that AI - means assistant instructor - one who still needs to be supervised to enable them to progress! It is the first rung of the teaching ladder - of course there will be some at the lower end and some at the upper end of knowledge and experience. You experience must be very limited - because I have managed to find several very capable AI's that I employed to teach in my riding school in New Zealand!

As far as colours go - while genetic knowledge is far more understood - many of the colours can only be defined by the results of genetic testing. The basics are still there.
		
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could not say better myself *5

You own a riding school???   wow impressive do you have any cheeky monkeys like we had at Park Farm like Sky - Jigsaw - and Nig*er can't put the other G in but that little pony was so cheeky used to roll with the kids


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## Tnavas (23 April 2016)

ester said:



			That is the BHS stage 1 manual  Since when did PC come into this!?
Cute, which bits have white skin?, unpigmented would be a much more accurate description but pink, never white.
Dominant white horses are also on the would need to test which sort of dominant white if you were interested, but also not all W mutations are testable at times anyway. There have been interesting dominant whites produced from mixed W mutations too of late, particularly in gypsy cobs.

I didn't say white horses didn't exist so I don't really understand your point. I was pointing out that I didn't see black as rare, or that white horses could have white or pink skin .
		
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The Pony Club manuals were what it was all once based on - looks like I will have to buy some new books.

As to the photos I just thought you would enjoy our surprise - the dams dam was chestnut - the first white foal was a real shock to the stud. Then when the foal (grown up) went to stud she also produced a white foal.


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## Tnavas (23 April 2016)

HGA-12 said:



			could not say better myself *5

You own a riding school???   wow impressive do you have any cheeky monkeys like we had at Park Farm like Sky - Jigsaw - and Nig*er can't put the other G in but that little pony was so cheeky used to roll with the kids
		
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Hi - no longer have the school sadly - the owner decided to take it back when the lease expired - yes we had real cheeky ponies too - Gwenny the only mare - who would suddenly go in reverse, squealing, when coming into season. Algie who would bolt if the rider on board screamed,Olly who was so programmed, that we had to talk in code and Shorty (generally called 5h1tty by the instructors!) who would decide from day to day whether or not he was capable of jumping. One of the school horses went to UK and became a 2* eventer.

As far as Park Farm goes, I studied at Radnage but took my exam at Park Farm, my subject - Transitions up and down to canter, it was summer and we did the teaching out in a big field. Sad to hear it's gone had some lovely memories of competitions held there.

I used to teach a blind man and because of his size he was only able to ride on particular horse who was known to be quite nasty - the faces he'd pull when people came into his yard were no bluff - he would bite or kick if he felt so inclined. However he was just awesome with this blind rider - never ever got aggressive, allowed him to feel all over without a murmur - horses are quite amazing


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## JFTDWS (23 April 2016)

HGA-12 said:



			Name calling is one of your specialities and  I am now using Ui, I think it is a habit of yours to throw insults to me and others, I think you like making a drama out of things or showing your true colours on here  so now at least I don't have to see the snarky comments you seem to make in most of your posts.  We cannot seem to have any discussion without you insulting me or someone else so obviously it comes naturally to you.  It is one thing agreeing or disagreeing  with someone but it is a cheap shot continually throwing personal insults to someone you don't know and it happens all to often with your replies.   There are people out there who do not know the genetics of horse colours, why does that make them idiots? 
   Just as well you are not qualified as no one would live up to your so called superior standards of horsemanship.    Talk about up yourself, it  gets boring repeating myself about how rude your being with people who are learning.  

We are supposed to help - teach and advise  the new kids on the block not slate people calling them numpties or idiots  so ........<click>
		
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Umm, I haven't called you any names.  You have called me a fair few.  I think you're a wee bit confused there.  You seem determined to place yourself in the "numpty" category of AIs, rather than the competent riders - both categories I acknowledged the existence of in that post.  Do you have self esteem issues, or are you deliberately trying to pick a fight?

For the record, I have no obligation to teach any "new kids on the block", who according to you are also the best instructors out there - I'm not a riding instructor and I have no desire to be.  My only obligation is to my horse - to choose the best trainers for their long term soundness and progression.


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## Tnavas (24 April 2016)

JFTD said:



			But even an idiot can understand the difference between dun and buckskin - surely even someone at the lowest level of instructor training can manage that...  The kids in pony club can, if taught the right basics!
		
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- they could also be taught lateral movements at D level too but they are only little people, they don't retain enough knowledge, you didn't learn the formula for a quadratic equation when you were 9yrs old - you learn and are taught in levels - AI is the first level - riders learn the basics of teaching, lesson control, safety and school exercises - they are not expected to teach lateral work or take a rider to Olympic level. THEY ARE ON THE FIRST RUNG OF THE TEACHING LADDER. As an examiner we are reminded that we must ask ourselves this question every time "If this rider/instructor continues on the right lines will they improve" Also Examine what you see on the day - some riders will be far more advanced than others taking the exam, but if they have shown that meet the criteria for the exam then they are so. 



JFTD said:



			I'm never sure if you're deliberately obtuse, or just not able to understand things very well.  I think I've made it abundantly clear that my issue is with the low standards of AIs coming through the current system, who have no further experience beyond [current] s3 level.  In my opinion, it is entirely possible for a competent rider to get through the current s3 exams with very little effort.  And it's entirely possible for numpties to get through it with a great deal more effort, but remain utter numpties at the end of it.  You're welcome to disagree, but no amount wailing on your part will change my mind on it.  

As for my opinion affecting how people think of AIs, I'd imagine you're doing a good enough job of that for yourself...
		
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The standards are not low, they are the standard required by BHS to pass the FIRST LEVEL of teaching - as said above - there will always be some that are far better - they may only be doing the AI - because they have to before they can do the II and then the I - often overseas students go and work on all three in a short space of time.

I too find some of your comments offensive! 

Stage 3 riding is the required level - many will be riding at that level - many may be riding above that level - Stage 3 is the minimum requirement. Don't knock people because they are currently at the lower level of knowledge - you too look like you could do with some help with your jumping position! Your picture shows a very average Stage 3 position!


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## JFTDWS (24 April 2016)

Tnavas said:



			The standards are not low, they are the standard required by BHS to pass the FIRST LEVEL of teaching - as said above - there will always be some that are far better - they may only be doing the AI - because they have to before they can do the II and then the I - often overseas students go and work on all three in a short space of time.

I too find some of your comments offensive! 

Stage 3 riding is the required level - many will be riding at that level - many may be riding above that level - Stage 3 is the minimum requirement. Don't knock people because they are currently at the lower level of knowledge - you too look like you could do with some help with your jumping position! Your picture shows a very average Stage 3 position!
		
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Yes, but you're missing the point - an AI who markets themselves as an instructor is on the first rung of the ladder.  Fine - but this equally means that they are not prepared to teach people at higher levels, and often have a fairly basic knowledge.  This is exactly what I have been saying.  Some will be far better than others.  Also what I'm saying.  

You may think the standards are high.  I disagree.  You can be as offended as you like by that.  I hold those opinions and they're frankly none of your business - much like my jumping position.  As I said before, I'm not a professional, and I don't market myself as an instructor, so whether my jumping position is stage 3, or fit to go around Badminton is irrelevant.  I get paid for things I am extremely qualified to do.  I choose to pay instructors who I deem to be far better qualified than the average AI.  That's my choice, and I'm entitled to inform the OP of that when she asks what people look for in an instructor.  

You can shout about BHS supremacy all you like, but your _opinion _of its worth is no more valid than mine.


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## Tnavas (24 April 2016)

JFTD said:



			Yes, but you're missing the point - an AI who markets themselves as an instructor is on the first rung of the ladder.  Fine - but this equally means that they are not prepared to teach people at higher levels, and often have a fairly basic knowledge.  This is exactly what I have been saying.  Some will be far better than others.  Also what I'm saying.  

You may think the standards are high.  I disagree.  You can be as offended as you like by that.  I hold those opinions and they're frankly none of your business - much like my jumping position.  As I said before, I'm not a professional, and I don't market myself as an instructor, so whether my jumping position is stage 3, or fit to go around Badminton is irrelevant.  I get paid for things I am extremely qualified to do.  I choose to pay instructors who I deem to be far better qualified than the average AI.  That's my choice, and I'm entitled to inform the OP of that when she asks what people look for in an instructor.  

You can shout about BHS supremacy all you like, but your _opinion _of its worth is no more valid than mine.
		
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an AI who markets themselves as an instructor is on the first rung of the ladder.  Fine - but this equally means that they are not prepared to teach people at higher levels,

You have to start somewhere! The ability to teach at a higher level comes with experience and practice - I know that when I was first qualified I was not ready to teach more than beginners and up to stage 3 - but as I gained more teaching hours my ability to teach to a higher level increased - Now I teach to A level - I even have a couple of my students pass A/H with Honours - I'm still only an AI as I didn't have the funds or time to spend training. I also have my S4 and BHSI Stable Manager. I'm also a B examiner

You may think the standards are high Where did I say this? I said the standard is what BHS require for an AI. They are not variable.

I choose to pay instructors who I deem to be far better qualified than the average AI.  That's my choice, and I'm entitled to inform the OP of that when she asks what people look for in an instructor. 

It is your choice, but not your right to be rude and so negative about those that have made the effort to better themselves by following the professional path. And this is what gave the UK instructors a chance in equestrian life - that the BHS qualifications were considered a professional qualification. They have been the foundation for the UK and in fact the rest of the world - the qualification sort after by many countries, examiners at one time would travel the world to give those in far countries the chance to gain a worthwhile qualification.

You reckon you pay an instructor who you deem better than an AI and I point out to you that he/she has not done much for your jumping or for your flat position. Me a mere AI notice that in your first picture you have collapsed your right side, dropping your right shoulder - you are sitting crooked. In your jumping picture - you back is hunched and your elbows are stuck out - I have C level riders who can ride better - and what a pity they are taught by a mere AI - they will never amount to much, oh! but then I forget two of mine have ridden for New Zealand and one has a full A with honours and the other H with honours.


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## FfionWinnie (24 April 2016)

Goldenstar said:



			I don't think you can say that any one type of trainer will be forward thinking or otherwise .
The most off the wall open minded trainer I have ever worked with is an FBHS .
		
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I think I said it was my personal experience. The BHS instructors I know are stuffy old women who have not achieved anything for years if ever.


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## JFTDWS (24 April 2016)

Tnavas said:



			You reckon you pay an instructor who you deem better than an AI and I point out to you that he/she has not done much for your jumping or for your flat position. Me a mere AI notice that in your first picture you have collapsed your right side, dropping your right shoulder - you are sitting crooked. In your jumping picture - you back is hunched and your elbows are stuck out - I have C level riders who can ride better - and what a pity they are taught by a mere AI - they will never amount to much, oh!
		
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I think your unsolicited opinion is somewhat unprofessional, but I'll play ball:

1.  What makes you think that I - a rider who has no BHS qualificatons at all - cannot see all the minute flaws in my own riding myself?  There's very little skill involved in that.

2.  What makes you think that my trainers haven't also seen and made efforts to improve my position?  (FYI, the only jumping lessons I've ever had have been from AIs - but that doesn't fit into your narrative, does it?)

3.  My skill in the saddle is actually irrelevant at this point - it's childish point scoring.  I am neither the only, nor a representative product of "non-BHS" training (FYI my most regular trainer is internationally qualified in, I believe, a European qualification, so you're also knocking the European equivalents - is that a good outcome for your line of argument?).  I would also suggest that I am probably no worse than the average student of the average AI - you might argue differently, but I would suggest the standard of the average rider in the UK supports my assertion there.  The basic premise of your argument is flawed.

The only thing you could achieve with those comments would be to upset me, because you're not actually making the BHS out to be any better by your comments.  Fortunately for me, I don't value your opinion and I shan't lose sleep over it


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## FfionWinnie (24 April 2016)

Tnavas said:



			Oh Dear! If its not broke - why try to fix it - lets consider Carl Hester and Charlotte Dujardan - both classical riders of the old school!

So do we have a new way to teach riders? - has the basic position of riders changed? Over the years I've noticed a big change in the attitude and manner of riders - At one time riders listened, co-operated and tried what their coach had suggested. WE now have to deal with spoilt, arrogant brats who think they know it all. Recently one of pony club members answered back to the coach - a one time member of the NZ team, the same child told one of her coaches she didn't know what she was talking about - child is 13 - coach has ridden Badmintona couple of times.

Forward thinking does not have to be outside of the classical - a horse well schooled classically as in Spanish Riding School (the bases of BHS teachings) is a dream to ride. No force needed, no aggressive aids.


Personally I find many of the modern riders very rough, untidy and lacking in fineness. Getting over the jump by any means outweighs the horses comfort, a well balanced rider sitting tight and quiet is far nicer for the horse to cope with.
		
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I wouldn't want a rubbish coach I already said that the ones I use are at the top of their game. 

At the end of the day I ride my horse for leisure purposes. I want an instructor who improves my riding and gives me an enjoyable hour while doing so.

I think you are very rude to insult someone's riding. I don't remember seeing any photos at all of the main pro BHS people on this thread so please don't slag off the people who do put themselves out there. You've just made yourself look very nasty.


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## Tnavas (24 April 2016)

FfionWinnie said:



			I wouldn't want a rubbish coach I already said that the ones I use are at the top of their game. 

At the end of the day I ride my horse for leisure purposes. I want an instructor who improves my riding and gives me an enjoyable hour while doing so.

I think you are very rude to insult someone's riding. I don't remember seeing any photos at all of the main pro BHS people on this thread so please don't slag off the people who do put themselves out there. You've just made yourself look very nasty.
		
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I was giving her a taste of her own medicine! - she has been quite obnoxious and derogatory about those of us that have worked hard for our BHS qualifications. What I have pointed out is that the unqualified coach she has who is supposed to know so much has not done a lot for her riding!

Just an observation!


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## JFTDWS (24 April 2016)

Tnavas said:



			I was giving her a taste of her own medicine! - she has been quite obnoxious and derogatory about those of us that have worked hard for our BHS qualifications.
		
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At no point, Tnavas, did I say anything obnoxious or derogatory towards you personally.  I'm sorry you can't seem to understand the difference between "some AIs" and "all AIs", and insist that my suggestion that the AI qualification in itself (that is, the ability to ride to current s3 exam level) is insufficient, means that I am saying "all AIs have insufficient training".  Despite me saying that explicitly, repeatedly in this thread.  I can't insult your riding - as far as I'm aware, you've never graced us with anything to judge.  I can't insult your instructional skill either as I don't know you - although you clearly feel that every single comment I have directed at the BHS system reflects on you personally.  That's some arrogance, but hey ho.


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## Tnavas (24 April 2016)

JFTD said:



			At no point, Tnavas, did I say anything obnoxious or derogatory towards you personally.  I'm sorry you can't seem to understand the difference between "some AIs" and "all AIs", and insist that my suggestion that the AI qualification in itself (that is, the ability to ride to current s3 exam level) is insufficient, means that I am saying "all AIs have insufficient training".  Despite me saying that explicitly, repeatedly in this thread.  I can't insult your riding - as far as I'm aware, you've never graced us with anything to judge.  I can't insult your instructional skill either as I don't know you - although you clearly feel that every single comment I have directed at the BHS system reflects on you personally.  That's some arrogance, but hey ho.
		
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Your comments about the AI has been very generalised which is what I have objected to - others have pointed out the same thing. Dote around H & H forums there are pictures of me and my students - you'll just have to go looking for them.!


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## ILuvCowparsely (24 April 2016)

Tnavas said:



			I was giving her a taste of her own medicine! - she has been quite obnoxious and derogatory about those of us that have worked hard for our BHS qualifications. What I have pointed out is that the unqualified coach she has who is supposed to know so much has not done a lot for her riding!

Just an observation!
		
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5*  like TN well said


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## FfionWinnie (24 April 2016)

Tnavas said:



			I was giving her a taste of her own medicine! - she has been quite obnoxious and derogatory about those of us that have worked hard for our BHS qualifications. What I have pointed out is that the unqualified coach she has who is supposed to know so much has not done a lot for her riding!

Just an observation!
		
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She didn't say anything against you as an AI did she. Nor did she say "all AIs are" anything. 

So really not a "taste of her own medicine" but an incredibly hurtful and nasty thing to say. 

I can't believe you think it's ok to pick holes in a rider in the way you have. Is that the BHS way too?


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## FfionWinnie (24 April 2016)

HGA-12 said:



			5*  like TN well said
		
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That's a highly ironic sig line you have in that case.


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## Tnavas (24 April 2016)

FfionWinnie said:



			She didn't say anything against you as an AI did she. Nor did she say "all AIs are" anything. 

So really not a "taste of her own medicine" but an incredibly hurtful and nasty thing to say. 

I can't believe you think it's ok to pick holes in a rider in the way you have. Is that the BHS way too?
		
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I suggest that you go back and re read all her posts, she was knocking AI's in general. Her posts have been rude, referring to AI's as numpties. I find that offensive!


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## FfionWinnie (24 April 2016)

Tnavas said:



			I suggest that you go back and re read all her posts, she was knocking AI's in general. Her posts have been rude, referring to AI's as numpties. I find that offensive!
		
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I have read her posts. I have also read your posts and HGA's posts. 

It seems to me both you and HGA are unable to understand JFTD's use of language correctly. This has led you to interpret her words as a personal attack on yourselves when it's not, and it's her opinion based on her experience. 

The pair of you come across as rude bullies way before JFTD responds with a little dig (and that's not directed at you either Tnavas). 

I am perhaps in the unique position on this thread of having had a (free) school master lesson from JFTD on one of her horses, when I was down viewing a horse in her neck of the 'woods. That hour was one of the most enlightening of my entire life. 

In my youth I didn't have many lessons but the ones I had were very much BHS style lessons. 

In the last few years I have had 3 lessons a month from a UKCC coach who is at the top of his game as a SJer and without exception has improved every horse I have taken for a lesson with his ability to think things through.  I am in no way one of his talented competition riders. I probably depressingly fall into his middle aged mummy types of clients but he puts the same effort into teaching me on my cob as he does someone else who is competing BS on a proper SJer. 

My other instructor has her stage 4, but like JFTD is getting at, this isn't all she has and she is competing Advanced Medium level British Dressage and Novice British Eventing very successfully. 

I've tried other instructors both BHS and other qualifications / no qualifications and in my experience the BHS trained instructors tend to be stuffy old school people with a "whole ride prepare to be bored" attitude. Which isn't for me. Now please note I have said "tend to be" and "in my experience" that isn't a personal attack on you or anyone, it's me relaying my experiences. Which is essentially what a forum is about.


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## Tiddlypom (24 April 2016)

Whatever the level of qualification, the instructor must be interested in the rider's position, and how best to correct it so that the rider sits in balance with their horse. (I write as someone who can sit crookedly with the best of them ).

There are so many dismounted ways to improve rider fitness and position these days, too, eg Equipilates, osteopathy, physio, riding simulators to help riders. It's good if the instructor will refer their pupils on to some of these if necessary.

The best trainer I had was a BHSI who was by her own admission a fairly ordinary rider, with modest competition results, but by 'eck she could teach.


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## ester (24 April 2016)

Tnavas said:



			Stage 3 riding is the required level - many will be riding at that level - many may be riding above that level - Stage 3 is the minimum requirement. Don't knock people because they are currently at the lower level of knowledge - you too look like you could do with some help with your jumping position! Your picture shows a very average Stage 3 position!
		
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And some aren't riding at that level, my PC H test trained friend has never ridden XC, at any level, in fact I am not sure she has ever gone over a solid fence, she was also lucky because it was too wet to do the XC component of their stage 3 riding so they just had to ride up a couple of banks.


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## Asha (24 April 2016)

Daisy1905 said:



			Could someone tell me which qualifications I would need to start teaching please? 

Many thanks
		
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Well OP I bet you didn't expect to open up some a can of worms with such a relatively simple question !

I have very little advice, as I'm not a teacher , but if you where my daughter ( I'm assuming you are young ) I would research the best riding schools, those with the best results, and most happy clients.    The tinternet is a wonderful place. Then I'd contact them and ask them what qualifications they expect when recruiting, and find out why.

Then contact the BHS and ask them too.

I would also contact the Pony club , ask them what they recommend.

Freelance may be a little different. The instructors I use come from word of mouth and I have no idea what qualifications they have.  But what they do have in abundance is the ability to understand me. Understand how far they can push me,  they also have lots of actual competition experience in my chosen field.


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## ester (24 April 2016)

Tnavas said:



			I suggest that you go back and re read all her posts, she was knocking AI's in general. Her posts have been rude, referring to AI's as numpties. I find that offensive!
		
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Exactly in general (not ALL but the majority), SOME AIs as numpties not YOU! 
You chose to include yourself in that majority and be offended. 
Completely different to having personal digs.


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## Tnavas (24 April 2016)

ester said:



			And some aren't riding at that level, my PC H test trained friend has never ridden XC, at any level, in fact I am not sure she has ever gone over a solid fence, she was also lucky because it was too wet to do the XC component of their stage 3 riding so they just had to ride up a couple of banks.
		
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H is a horse management exam, does not require any riding at all, beyond C certificate level.


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## ILuvCowparsely (24 April 2016)

JFTD said:



			Any numpty who can sit on a horse fairly sensibly can become an AI with enough effort, in my experience.  Many of the AIs round here are super for teaching little kids to play ponies, or nervous adults, but wouldn't know where to start with real work - which is fine for most as they market themselves appropriately.  

Actually, if you read my comment, I said that if the AI qualification (or further down that line) is all they have to their name, I'm not interested. I don't believe the BHS standards are particularly "good" and I'm certainly not going to pick an instructor based on them.


All the AI tells me is that you can ride a safe horse in basic paces and over a few small fences, pass a theory exam (where some of the theory is wrong) and can jump through their teaching hoops. That's great - but on its own, it really only does qualify you to teach people who want to learn how to do rising trot or canter a circle.

I'm never sure if you're deliberately obtuse, or just not able to understand things very well. I think I've made it abundantly clear that my issue is with the low standards of AIs coming through the current system, who have no further experience beyond [current] s3 level. In my opinion, it is entirely possible for a competent rider to get through the current s3 exams with very little effort. And it's entirely possible for numpties to get through it with a great deal more effort, but remain utter numpties at the end of it. You're welcome to disagree, but no amount wailing on your part will change my mind on it.

As for my opinion affecting how people think of AIs, I'd imagine you're doing a good enough job of that for yourself...
But even an idiot can understand the difference between dun and buckskin - surely even someone at the lowest level of instructor training can manage that... The kids in pony club can, if taught the right basics!!
		
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Is hardly promoting an exam for the OP ios it I bet they are thinking twice now taking this exam

When you say Ai's is easy and any numpty can achieve it, why  do you not do it and pass eh ??


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## ILuvCowparsely (24 April 2016)

FfionWinnie said:



			I have read her posts. I have also read your posts and HGA's posts. 

It seems to me both you and HGA are unable to understand JFTD's use of language correctly. This has led you to interpret her words as a personal attack on yourselves when it's not, and it's her opinion based on her experience. 

The pair of you come across as rude bullies way before JFTD responds with a little dig (and that's not directed at you either Tnavas). 

I am perhaps in the unique position on this thread of having had a (free) school master lesson from JFTD on one of her horses, when I was down viewing a horse in her neck of the 'woods. That hour was one of the most enlightening of my entire life. 

In my youth I didn't have many lessons but the ones I had were very much BHS style lessons. 

In the last few years I have had 3 lessons a month from a UKCC coach who is at the top of his game as a SJer and without exception has improved every horse I have taken for a lesson with his ability to think things through.  I am in no way one of his talented competition riders. I probably depressingly fall into his middle aged mummy types of clients but he puts the same effort into teaching me on my cob as he does someone else who is competing BS on a proper SJer. 

My other instructor has her stage 4, but like JFTD is getting at, this isn't all she has and she is competing Advanced Medium level British Dressage and Novice British Eventing very successfully. 

I've tried other instructors both BHS and other qualifications / no qualifications and in my experience the BHS trained instructors tend to be stuffy old school people with a "whole ride prepare to be bored" attitude. Which isn't for me. Now please note I have said "tend to be" and "in my experience" that isn't a personal attack on you or anyone, it's me relaying my experiences. Which is essentially what a forum is about.
		
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hardly bullies when this poster constently goes on about my spelling and wording to the point I ask H&H to close the thread, hence why I changed my signature

 Yes I am dyslexic, no they cannot change the way my brain words things  down, yes I am crap at typing. That is the type of Dissability I have.  

No I cannot change it  


Saying any numpty can pass is putting us all in that shoe box is  it not?  That and other coments put us in the firing line and you wonder why we react.  Maybe they should have said

*
  I have seen a couple AI's who were not good but that is no refl;ect on others !!! *  that might have saved us who spent the tinme and money in our training not taking it as a insult againts AI's in general


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## Tnavas (24 April 2016)

HGA-12 said:



			hardly bullies when this poster constently goes on about my spelling and wording to the point I ask H&H to close the thread, hence why I changed my signature

 Yes I am dyslexic, no they cannot change the way my brain words things  down, yes I am crap at typing. That is the type of Dissability I have.  

No I cannot change it  


Saying any numpty can pass is putting us all in that shoe box is  it not?  That and other coments put us in the firing line and you wonder why we react.  Maybe they should have said

*
  I have seen a couple AI's who were not good but that is no refl;ect on others !!! *  that might have saved us who spent the tinme and money in our training not taking it as a insult againts AI's in general
		
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  agree 100%


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## JFTDWS (24 April 2016)

HGA-12 said:



			Is hardly promoting an exam for the OP ios it I bet they are thinking twice now taking this exam

When you say Ai's is easy and any numpty can achieve it, why  do you not do it and pass eh ??
		
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Why would I promote an exam to the OP which I don't think is necessarily useful to them?  I'm under no obligation to, no matter what you think.

Why would I take an exam to qualify me to teach in an RS, when *I do not teach, nor do I want to*?  I have professional qualifications related to my career - I'm not in the habit of throwing money after gaining qualifications I neither want, nor intend to use.



HGA-12 said:



			Maybe they should have said

*  I have seen a couple AI's who were not good but that is no refl;ect on others !!! *
		
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I think you have me confused with sidesaddle, actually.

Anyway, why would I say that?  Rubbish AIs do reflect on others.  It doesn't mean every AI is similarly rubbish, but it does mean that the qualification will become tainted by their poor reputation.  And that is what I have been saying throughout - the AI qualification itself is, *to me*, meaningless, because based on that alone, how would one know whether the instructor falls into the "just scraped through their s3" category or the "very well trained" categories?  If they're an AI who has trained with X at the TTT, worked with Y, or ridden to Z level, you have some means to judge their level (and possibly style of training) before you commit to a lesson. 

But I've said this all before, and you're determined to willfully misinterpret my comments.  So carry on...


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## be positive (24 April 2016)

HGA-12 said:



			Is hardly promoting an exam for the OP ios it I bet they are thinking twice now taking this exam

When you say Ai's is easy and any numpty can achieve it, why  do you not do it and pass eh ??
		
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You are now arguing for the sake of it and not reading JFTD's posts correctly, she does not state that any numpty can easily pass but that 

"In my opinion, it is entirely possible for a competent rider to get through the current s3 exams with very little effort. And it's entirely possible for numpties to get through it with a great deal more effort, but remain utter numpties at the end of it." 

which is the same in many walks of life not just the equestrian world, there are numpties everywhere, some probably highly qualified that have put in a lot of work to gain a professional qualification they wanted but they may never be good at the job, others work hard, strive to improve their experience, knowledge and don't rest on their laurels, they continue learning some within the BHS system others such as Carl Hester, who has his BHSAI, move on outside of the system, it doesn't make them better people but probably makes them better trainers/ instructors.


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## ester (24 April 2016)

Tnavas said:



			H is a horse management exam, does not require any riding at all, beyond C certificate level.
		
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Exactly! And that was the person providing the training for the AI friend. Worrying don't you think?


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## ester (24 April 2016)

HGA-12 said:



			hardly bullies when this poster constently goes on about my spelling and wording to the point I ask H&H to close the thread, hence why I changed my signature

 Yes I am dyslexic, no they cannot change the way my brain words things  down, yes I am crap at typing. That is the type of Dissability I have.  

No I cannot change it  


Saying any numpty can pass is putting us all in that shoe box is  it not?  That and other coments put us in the firing line and you wonder why we react.  Maybe they should have said

*
  I have seen a couple AI's who were not good but that is no refl;ect on others !!! *  that might have saved us who spent the tinme and money in our training not taking it as a insult againts AI's in general
		
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I'm autistic, it makes it every difficult for me to deal with things that are wrong/incorrect and against the rules, so much so that at least I cringe, at most it causes me physical and emotional distress, whose disability wins out on that then? I try my hardest to be aware of when I should let go of certain points but sometimes it takes quite a bit of effort as I fight an argument about it in my head. No less effort than I imagine using spell check in today's world of technology would be.


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## ester (24 April 2016)

HGA-12 said:



			Is hardly promoting an exam for the OP ios it I bet they are thinking twice now taking this exam

When you say Ai's is easy and any numpty can achieve it, why  do you not do it and pass eh ??
		
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I thought you had put JFTD on UI? And I don't think it is a bad thing that the OP thinks of all the pros and cons of spending time on training and qualifications.
JFTD doesn't want to teach riding, she does ok with the science so why would she spend money taking exams?


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## Goldenstar (24 April 2016)

JFTD said:



			Many of the AIs round here are super for teaching little kids to play ponies, or nervous adults, but wouldn't know where to start with real work - which is fine for most as they market themselves appropriately.
		
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So it's not real work teaching children or nervous adults .
Let me state it's my view that those that can teach and improve nervous adults are some of the most skilled .
That is difficult skilled work .


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## ILuvCowparsely (24 April 2016)

They are now on UI   I copied from earlier.  
Yes it is good to get the pro and cons of a profession from a business aspect as in how much you make - what type insurance .You need to make x  amount when freelance and more. 

  Saying any Numpty can do it refers it is easy and nothing special to train and go through the good times and the bad within your training.   

 Sheesh   some may say the HGV test is easy but it isn't and not all will complete the course or pass

Some might find the training hard as remember it isn&#8217;t just about having a lesson and   teaching in the middle of the school with your trainer telling you what to do.

It is what goes on behind the scenes when you live andwork and train at you chosen training school.

At Park Farm it included
 being woken up in the middle of the night when ponies get out and are in Mount Vernon Hospital, and we have to get up and go in nighties and wellies which was a sight to catch them runinng round the 80 or so acres there, dealing with colic cases, strangles and other ailments all first hand, hard lectures, Weekly exams, weekly practical test - hands on ailment treating, seeing death and birth for the first time.  Dealing with difficult clients, rude clients - first aid.  That is the tip of the iceberg, not even 1 % of what i went through, the stress that came with it and being bullied by some of the other students and senior staff, drove me to actually jump out the window as I had enough, as at that age it followed on from school bullying.  Then I found inner strength and stood up and explained to Sandra who was one of the senior staff who had no patience for me and explained I was Dyslexic. 
She said You are?? I said yes, then taken to head office to Miss Wendy Maye, and they completely changed and helped me no end after that, so my progress was down to them and their patience for me.  Now I am stronger and will not tolerate ridicule it is what it is. 

We should be helping those who are less fortunate to the knowledge of horseman help not dissing the profession to posters who want to make teaching their career.

Its all very well having horses from an early age and judging, but a lot of students or working pupils come from a really horseless background so everything including haynets being put up etc, is all new to them. 

AI is like any other qualification is accepted and looked upon as a good standard of work by riding schools since the BHS riding schools employed qualified staff not individuals who may or may not be practicing teaching outside of the yard.



 Most students come from a background where they have not had hands on or practical experiance so are experiancing it all for the first time.


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## JFTDWS (24 April 2016)

Goldenstar said:



			So it's not real work teaching children or nervous adults .
Let me state it's my view that those that can teach and improve nervous adults are some of the most skilled .
That is difficult skilled work .
		
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Fwiw, GS, I agree with you.  That post was poorly worded - I mean real gymnasticising work for the horse, rather than teaching the rider in a child-friendly manner, dealing with nerves and all those other inter-personal skills, which are essential for anybody (AI or not) marketing themselves at that demographic (which are of no interest to me, since I am neither child nor currently in the throes of confidence issues).  They're valuable skills and incredibly important in the RS, PC and other markets - they're just not what I look for in a trainer, so to me, they're of no interest (at present).


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## ILuvCowparsely (24 April 2016)

ester said:



			I'm autistic, it makes it every difficult for me to deal with things that are wrong/incorrect and against the rules, so much so that at least I cringe, at most it causes me physical and emotional distress, whose disability wins out on that then? I try my hardest to be aware of when I should let go of certain points but sometimes it takes quite a bit of effort as I fight an argument about it in my head. No less effort than I imagine using spell check in today's world of technology would be.
		
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I can appreciate it is fustrating reading a post with things spelt wrong and punctuation mistake, but when someone has a genuin dissability what can they gain by repeated attacks on a member about it in many of their posts.   What can be gained by it apart from someone getting someone hurt or upset or angry about it being meationed all the time. Remember we sometimes say it as it sounds or reading things wrong or genuially  write down how our brains tells us which may be right or wrong, but that does not give others a free rein to ridicule someone and turn a thread into a biotching slanging match, which my last one did  just because I spelt Bought wrong.


 I see this done to others too and it is always the same members dishing out the coments.


I hope the OP does not now see the AI as a waste of time and not respected after seeing some of the coments on here


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## ester (24 April 2016)

You don't seem to have understood what I have said, because of my, also genuine, disability it often goes beyond frustration - I think you will note I used the words emotional and physical distress- does that really sound like just frustration to you? I am aware that it is ridiculous to have a physical response to a misspelled word but I do, can't help that but I have to put up with it if I am going to frequent forums and try (and fail!) and not let it affect me. 
I think you should understand that sometimes people aren't saying things just to get at you, that they sometimes have other reasons behind it. 
What can be gained from it? Maybe they will use a spell check more and save us all from ourselves? 



HGA-12 said:



			o

Its all very well having horses from an early age and judging, but a lot of students or working pupils come from a really horseless background so everything including haynets being put up etc, is all new to them.
		
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I judge having not had horses from an early age. I had occasional riding lessons intermittently and at 14 I got myself to the nearest riding school (hence the slighly dubious quality as I was on my bike) and immersed myself in them for occasional rides. I didn't get Frank until I was 21 and as such am still on my first pony .

I think the OP has plenty of information from both sides of the coins about BHS and other options and can make their own, informed decision.


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## ILuvCowparsely (24 April 2016)

ester said:



			You don't seem to have understood what I have said, because of my, also genuine, disability it often goes beyond frustration - I think you will note I used the words emotional and physical distress- does that really sound like just frustration to you? I am aware that it is ridiculous to have a physical response to a misspelled word but I do, can't help that but I have to put up with it if I am going to frequent forums and try (and fail!) and not let it affect me. 
I think you should understand that sometimes people aren't saying things just to get at you, that they sometimes have other reasons behind it. 
What can be gained from it? Maybe they will use a spell check more and save us all from ourselves? 



I judge having not had horses from an early age. I had occasional riding lessons intermittently and at 14 I got myself to the nearest riding school (hence the slighly dubious quality as I was on my bike) and immersed myself in them for occasional rides. I didn't get Frank until I was 21 and as such am still on my first pony .

I think the OP has plenty of information from both sides of the coins about BHS and other options and can make their own, informed decision.
		
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I did not get my first mare till 23 years old in 1983
I was reffering to those who are so called perfect and never make typos, getting frustrated and comment on others mistakes and turn the thread into a school yard picking on the individuals weakness, as per my innocent thread about a gadget I wanted to share and  a select few turned into a biotching match and making fun of the fact I spelt a word wrong.   I was not speaking about you.  I have said the spell checker does not work on this computer even though it is switched to on.  It also  crashes without reason so I cannot do anything about checking the spelling.


Some like to make themselves big by making others look small.Now I think this thread has gone as far as it can go and it is not helping the OP anymore, TN and me have explained why we feel the way we do, even though it was said  as a global statement which I might add included us as we are both qualified.


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## ester (24 April 2016)

It didn't include you! 'In general' and 'most' did not include you. 

How do you know that those others don't have issues that cause them to react the way they do? That was my point.


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## Auslander (24 April 2016)

The AI qualification is a bit like the driving test - it's the exams you take to start off your career with a recognised basic level of competence. I would expect an AI to be able to teach beginners and intermediate RS riders to a decent level, but I would not expect anything more from them, unless the individual was competing successfully in a particular discipline, and was able to communicate their knowledge. If it was any more than that, there wouldn't be an II, an I, or a Fellowship-the higher level exams, where students are encouraged to specialise, to think for themsleves, rather than doing everything the "BHS" way.

Not knocking AI's at all, as there is always going to be a need for basic instruction, but I don't see that particular qualification as anything more than entry level teaching.


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## Leo Walker (24 April 2016)

HGA-12 said:



			Saying any Numpty can do it refers it is easy and nothing special to train and go through the good times and the bad within your training.   

It is what goes on behind the scenes when you live andwork and train at you chosen training school.

At Park Farm it included
 being woken up in the middle of the night when ponies get out and are in Mount Vernon Hospital, and we have to get up and go in nighties and wellies which was a sight to catch them runinng round the 80 or so acres there, dealing with colic cases, strangles and other ailments all first hand, hard lectures, Weekly exams, weekly practical test - hands on ailment treating, seeing death and birth for the first time.  

Its all very well having horses from an early age and judging, but a lot of students or working pupils come from a really horseless background so everything including haynets being put up etc, is all new to them. 

Most students come from a background where they have not had hands on or practical experiance so are experiancing it all for the first time.
		
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You keep talking about training schools. I dont think they exist in the way you remember them. As someone who worked as an instructor, so did the training myself and trained tens of others, what you are talking about is not what happens. There have never been any weekly exams of any sort, lectures werent really a thing either at any of the places I worked, other than the place I did my inital training. People learnt on the job and then got specific training in how to pass the exams.

I never worked on a yard that wasnt BHS approved. I also never met a single person who hadnt at the very least come up through the ranks of helper at the yard, but most had more experience than that.


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## EventingMum (24 April 2016)

Auslander said:



			The AI qualification is a bit like the driving test - it's the exams you take to start off your career with a recognised basic level of competence. I would expect an AI to be able to teach beginners and intermediate RS riders to a decent level, but I would not expect anything more from them, unless the individual was competing successfully in a particular discipline, and was able to communicate their knowledge. If it was any more than that, there wouldn't be an II, an I, or a Fellowship-the higher level exams, where students are encouraged to specialise, to think for themsleves, rather than doing everything the "BHS" way.

Not knocking AI's at all, as there is always going to be a need for basic instruction, but I don't see that particular qualification as anything more than entry level teaching.
		
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Totally agree with this, unfortunately many see it as the be all and end all. Once achieved it is then up to the individual to progress further or not and if they decide to progress in which direction. Not everyone is lucky enough to have the resources to be able to own horses and compete and so can't, even if they had the talent, build a reputation for themselves that way. However there are many riders who will benefit from those who cannot pursue a competition career - the riding school rider, novice horse owner etc. The AI will have taught them safe working practices and horse management skills that should mean they can help and advise these riders and their horses. 

Those more ambitious riders are likely to have their own horses and will look for a coach who has experience in their chosen field however from personal experience not all successful competition riders are good coaches. At this level I feel it's important to find someone you click with and it may be a case of trial and error to find the right person. That person may or not have traditional qualifications but they should hold insurance. 

The UKCC has opened up a new way of becoming qualified and as it can be discipline specific has attracted many supporters, my one concern is that especially at the lower generic levels there is no horse care element and if you are teaching, say a novice horse owner, advising them on aspects of horse care may also be required.  

Over the years I have gained coaching / teaching qualifications from BHS, EFI, UKCC, RDA and PC and have practical experience in producing young horses, show jumping and eventing - I have learned different things from each and they all help in my current roles none of which are high powered but are nevertheless diverse. I currently work with RDA riders with a range of difficulties, competent riding school adults, students pursuing qualifications, horse owning clients with a big range of abilities and ambitions and PC members competing at intermediate and open area level. Each group requires different skills and in general a different approach however my BHS training did give me the platform to develop these skills from. I have also been a BHS assessor and have to say the exam system has evolved over the years and efforts have been made to keep it relevant to the industry and deserves credit for this. 

What I have learned over the years is that each coach will have their own individual qualities and style, regardless of their qualifications and you may have to search to find someone who suits you, if one doesn't work for you they may well be ideal for another person.  For example when my son was eventing we used two flatwork trainers - one was a dressage rider who was really good and thinking "outside the box" and finding what worked for each horse as an individual, the other was a judge and was excellent at looking at things from that perspective. Taking things from each really helped and gave a better result than just working with one did.

I think what I'm trying to say in a really long winded way is coaching is a two way relationship, or three way if we include the horse, and like all relationships it can take some searching to find someone to suit you - if you're really lucky you may find "the one" early on but it's more likely you may have a few broken relationships along the way and what you require from the relationship will vary as you continue along your training path. Unlike a love life there's nothing morally wrong with having more than one coach at a time either!


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## ester (24 April 2016)

Excellent long winded summing up EM


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## EventingMum (24 April 2016)

ester said:



			Excellent long winded summing up EM 

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Sorry, it did become rather rambling


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## Tnavas (24 April 2016)

FrankieCob said:



			You keep talking about training schools. I dont think they exist in the way you remember them. As someone who worked as an instructor, so did the training myself and trained tens of others, what you are talking about is not what happens. There have never been any weekly exams of any sort, lectures werent really a thing either at any of the places I worked, other than the place I did my inital training. People learnt on the job and then got specific training in how to pass the exams.

I never worked on a yard that wasnt BHS approved. I also never met a single person who hadnt at the very least come up through the ranks of helper at the yard, but most had more experience than that.
		
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I think you will find that HGA-12 is referring to the worldwide famous training centres. Park Farm, Talland, Porlock Vale, Radnage, Fulmer, Crabbet Park, Patchetts Green, Suzanne's, and others. They specialised in the training of riders for the BHS exams, you could be fee paying or be a working pupil. You learnt 'on the job' with lectures, riding lessons, and tests. They were also working riding schools. All those schools mentioned trained riders right through to BHSI.  

Being a working pupil meant your training was longer, you worked on the yard in exchange for your tuition and possibly board too. Fee paying students were often those from wealthy families or overseas. They had an intense training. 

In these times riding was still a sport for the wealthy and many little rich girl took her AI before heading off to finishing school. Now with the advent of colleges running these courses, student loans and the like anyone can have a go. Sadly they do rather miss out on the depth of practical experience.

But finally we still must remember that the AI is just the first step in the exam system.


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## Leo Walker (24 April 2016)

I understand that, but its no use talking about them as if thats the training experience people have now. They dont.


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## Mooseontheloose (24 April 2016)

Tnavas said:



			H is a horse management exam, does not require any riding at all, beyond C certificate level.
		
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I think your friend will have had to do at least her B test before taking AH, which would have included xc.


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## Goldenstar (24 April 2016)

Mooseontheloose said:



			I think your friend will have had to do at least her B test before taking AH, which would have included xc.
		
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She would have to have her B to do the H.


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## PolarSkye (24 April 2016)

HGA-12 said:



			Saying any Numpty can do it refers it is easy and nothing special to train and go through the good times and the bad within your training.   

 Sheesh   some may say the HGV test is easy but it isn't and not all will complete the course or pass

Some might find the training hard as remember it isn&#8217;t just about having a lesson and   teaching in the middle of the school with your trainer telling you what to do.

It is what goes on behind the scenes when you live andwork and train at you chosen training school.

At Park Farm it included
 being woken up in the middle of the night when ponies get out and are in Mount Vernon Hospital, and we have to get up and go in nighties and wellies which was a sight to catch them runinng round the 80 or so acres there, dealing with colic cases, strangles and other ailments all first hand, hard lectures, Weekly exams, weekly practical test - hands on ailment treating, seeing death and birth for the first time.  Dealing with difficult clients, rude clients - first aid.
		
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I'm a little bit confused . . . what you're describing is running a yard and all that goes with it.  Plenty of people up and down the country manage to do this without any qualifications whatsoever . . . some do it well, some don't.  In my mind, what really counts is knowledge, experience and willingness to learn and be open minded.  

BHS (and Pony Club) qualifications have their place . . . the BHS certainly bangs the safety drum and someone certainly has to in a world where more and more non-horsey people are taking up the sport.  Learning basic horse care within the BHS structure is a good start (although I wish they'd update some of their guidelines - feeding for a start).  However, there's no substitute for good old fashioned experience.

As for training . . . I am much more interested in whether someone can actually share/impart knowledge in a constructive manner and with both eyes on horse welfare than whether they (or not) they have letters after their name.  For years I was in the BHS system . . . I learned a lot.  Then I left and learned that I had a great deal left to learn.  I believe the BHS (and the Pony Club) provide a decent foundation, especially for those coming from non-horsey families.  But I also believe that there is a whole world of perfectly legitimate methods of teaching and management outside the BHS.

Bottom line - I don't judge a yard owner, instructor, trainer, etc. by whether (or not) they have letters after their name - I judge them on whether they are effective horsepeople - in every respect.  On the ground, in the saddle, with clients, with the horses.  I really don't care whether or not people have letters after their name . . . by which I mean, it's fine by me either way . . . what I care about is whether (or not) they are good at what they do - getting the very best out of the horses and people who pay for their knowledge and experience.  

P


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## PolarSkye (24 April 2016)

Auslander said:



			The AI qualification is a bit like the driving test - it's the exams you take to start off your career with a recognised basic level of competence. I would expect an AI to be able to teach beginners and intermediate RS riders to a decent level, but I would not expect anything more from them, unless the individual was competing successfully in a particular discipline, and was able to communicate their knowledge. If it was any more than that, there wouldn't be an II, an I, or a Fellowship-the higher level exams, where students are encouraged to specialise, to think for themsleves, rather than doing everything the "BHS" way.

Not knocking AI's at all, as there is always going to be a need for basic instruction, but I don't see that particular qualification as anything more than entry level teaching.
		
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This.

P


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## _GG_ (24 April 2016)

OP - It's pretty simple...qualifications, be they early BHS or UKCC, will show people that you have passed basic levels of skill and knowledge, giving potential clients some reassurance in your abilities. That is never a bad thing.

That said, some of the best teachers I've had haven't been qualified and they knew more than the FBHS friends I have...friends who also chose to be taught by them. Being taught how to teach doesn't make someone a good teacher.

Being able to teach someone means being able to find a way for the student to understand the lesson. Sometimes different students at the same time. I have taught in the past, fully insured, didn't accept payment, but managed to, on many occasions, help students understand the mechanics of how and why...enabling them to perform correct lateral work, changes, collection...or even just how to always start rising on the correct diagonal, where they had struggled with qualified instructors for months or years. That's not blowing my own trumpet...I just understand how horses move and how riders have to open up and balance/position themselves before the standard aids as taught by the BHS can be effective. That is a slight criticism of the BHS, but a valid one because if I had a pound for every time a BHS instructor was unable to tell me why they teach a certain way, I'd be loaded by now. Some are brilliant, but that's more to do with them than their qualifications.
I guess that's a big thing that I personally look for. I want to trust that someone teaching me actually understands what they're teaching, why and how it works and that their not just teaching by numbers, telling me something works because they were told it does.

Qualifications are always going to be useful, especially teaching at lower levels, but for more talented, competitive riders, the choice of instructor comes down to the person who can most help them and their horses improve and qualifications aren't really considered. 

If you're wanting to earn extra money teaching...have a think about who you want to teach. If it's children and more novice adults, qualifications will do you the world of good. If you want to teach more advanced riders, you'd probably do better to get a few clients, start teaching them and let their improved competition records prove your worth as a coach. 

Above all, make sure you have full insurance and don't try to teach anything you don't fully understand yourself yet. 

Good luck.


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## Tnavas (24 April 2016)

Mooseontheloose and Goldenstar

No! At C+ the exam becomes split with the rider being able to sit Riding and HM separately.

If you pass C+ HM you can then go on and take B HM. If you pass B HM then you can move on and sit H.

What you cannot do is pass C+ Riding and move on to B riding. To sit any of the next levels of riding you have to have passed the complete exam at the lower level.

The horse management stage becomes a more important part of the exam from B onwards and Pony Club want to ensure that riders gain as much knowledge as they can. Pony Club also recognises that not everyone will have a B level horse or want to jump the B level jumps.


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## ester (24 April 2016)

Mooseontheloose said:



			I think your friend will have had to do at least her B test before taking AH, which would have included xc.
		
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Goldenstar said:



			She would have to have her B to do the H.
		
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No you've got confused. My AI friend (didn't do any pony club exams) who avoided the XC part of her stage 3 riding was trained by someone who ran a riding school and whose only stated qualification is pony club H test! That was my point on quality of training (or lack of)


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## Tnavas (24 April 2016)

ester said:



			No you've got confused. My AI friend (didn't do any pony club exams) who avoided the XC part of her stage 3 riding was trained by someone who ran a riding school and whose only stated qualification is pony club H test! That was my point on quality of training (or lack of)
		
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Ester, those comments were about my comment that you can do H without doing B riding.


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## ester (24 April 2016)

They mentioned my friend though so I wanted to clarify.


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## ILuvCowparsely (24 April 2016)

PolarSkye said:



			I'm a little bit confused . . . what you're describing is running a yard and all that goes with it.  Plenty of people up and down the country manage to do this without any qualifications whatsoever . . . some do it well, some don't.  In my mind, what really counts is knowledge, experience and willingness to learn and be open minded.  

BHS (and Pony Club) qualifications have their place . . . the BHS certainly bangs the safety drum and someone certainly has to in a world where more and more non-horsey people are taking up the sport.  Learning basic horse care within the BHS structure is a good start (although I wish they'd update some of their guidelines - feeding for a start).  However, there's no substitute for good old fashioned experience.

As for training . . . I am much more interested in whether someone can actually share/impart knowledge in a constructive manner and with both eyes on horse welfare than whether they (or not) they have letters after their name.  For years I was in the BHS system . . . I learned a lot.  Then I left and learned that I had a great deal left to learn.  I believe the BHS (and the Pony Club) provide a decent foundation, especially for those coming from non-horsey families.  But I also believe that there is a whole world of perfectly legitimate methods of teaching and management outside the BHS.

Bottom line - I don't judge a yard owner, instructor, trainer, etc. by whether (or not) they have letters after their name - I judge them on whether they are effective horsepeople - in every respect.  On the ground, in the saddle, with clients, with the horses.  I really don't care whether or not people have letters after their name . . . by which I mean, it's fine by me either way . . . what I care about is whether (or not) they are good at what they do - getting the very best out of the horses and people who pay for their knowledge and experience.  

P
		
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Tnavas do you sometimes think your on a loosing battle explaining here lol 



No what I am discribing  is Park Farm where you live and breath  your training, either as wroking pupil or paying student living on site 24 7 for over a year,   ALL staff junior and senior live on site at the 80 acres Park Farm with 20 acres concrete/tarmac HUGEEEE indoor school major scary x country - olympic x country course. It is pure and simply  your training   lessons - lectures-demonstrations  mock exams weekly tests  which are practical and theory.  We all had 6 horses signed to us as working pupils  1 or 2 livery   2 large school horses two smaller all checked by senior staff, we were responsible for caring -taking up trimming up and more every single day, evening yard we had a block assigned to us with one senior staff and  finishing off along with our 6 allocated were check before end of day.  Once a week evening we had to get horses ready for the riding club and help the members on etc.  We all had 6 horses at a time to bring in from the field   ride one lead 5, as the distance to the fields was around 10 acres of concrete all were used to being  lead in this way as it happend daily - yearly

 Proffesional competitions held, BHS exams held there 

It is another world


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## ester (24 April 2016)

A world where most people won't do their training.


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## teapot (24 April 2016)

I only ever did my Stage 1 (but was training for the AI at the time) at a yard where Ester's FBHS still teaches, and I'm torn about the BHS system. I know experienced people who can teach incredibly well yet fell apart in that exam environment. Yes Stages 1 to 3 may seem simple on paper, but there is something different about turning up at an exam centre in your kit, on horses in a yard you don't know etc. It's part of the test and it can stop people in their tracks. There's also the rigidity of the riding requirement in terms of how you're meant to look and do the BHS thing, which is a little prohibitive imho.

If I get the chance before I end up working full time, I want to try and get my ukcc level 2 for RDA. Having been a guinea pig hundreds of times for ptt exams, I prefer the ukcc system - it's less rigid (outside of the health and safety aspect) and imho gives you the freedom to teach/coach what's in front of you. It again isn't as easy as it sounds though - fair amount of portfolio work at the upper levels. I helped a friend practice for her RDA ukcc one the other week, and the breadth of the riders she was going to teaching was tough in terms of how much she had to cover in the space of thirty minutes with four very differently abled riders. 

I don't need to have the BHS Stage 3 riding under my belt to know how to get the best out of my RDA riders, something I am regularly complimented on, by parents and RDA bods of all levels. I also know who I can use the correct terminology with and who I can't - I see teaching as something you do when working with what's in front of you, and no amount of paperwork would automatically mean someone could teach well!


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## PolarSkye (24 April 2016)

HGA-12 said:



			Tnavas do you sometimes think your on a loosing battle explaining here lol 



No what I am discribing  is Park Farm where you live and breath  your training, living on site 24 7 for over a year,   ALL staff junior and senior live on site at the 80 acres Park Farm with HUGEEEE indoor school major scary x country - olympic x country course. It is pure and simply  your training   lessons - lectures-demonstrations  mock exams weekly tests  which are practical and theory.  We all had 6 horses signed to us as working pupils  1 or 2 livery   2 large school horses two smaller all checked by senior staff, we were responsible for caring -taking up trimming up and more every single day, evening yard we had a block assigned to us with one senior staff and  finishing off along with our 6 allocated were check before end of day.  Once a week evening we had to get horses ready for the riding club and help the members on etc.  We all had 6 horses at a time to bring in from the field   ride one lead 5, as the distance to the fields was around 10 acres of concrete all were used to being  lead in this way as it happend daily - yearly

 Proffesional competitions held, BHS exams held there 

It is another world
		
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Another world?  No, it isn't.  You have described yards up and down the country run and staffed by people with and without BHS qualifications - with and without success.  I know BHS-trained yard owners and managers I wouldn't trust with a hamster . . . and some I would trust with any horse.  Similarly, I know excellent horse men and women with no formal qualifications that fit both categories.  Why are you making this personal?

P


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## ILuvCowparsely (24 April 2016)

ester said:



			A world where most people won't do their training.
		
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??   what is that supposed to mean


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## ILuvCowparsely (24 April 2016)

PolarSkye said:



			Another world?  No, it isn't.  You have described yards up and down the country run and staffed by people with and without BHS qualifications - with and without success.  I know BHS-trained yard owners and managers I wouldn't trust with a hamster . . . and some I would trust with any horse.  Similarly, I know excellent horse men and women with no formal qualifications that fit both categories.  Why are you making this personal?

P
		
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I give up over to you TNAVAS   NOTHING this day and time I have seen like the training yards back then.  You would not understand unless like the other hundreds of students going through  the yard. 


 Riding establishments are not as intense as they were

 THis was yard remember we trained there and we can compare it too  standard livery yards today they are not the same, you can not base it the same since you have no clue what it was like unless you went there/trained there.
Therefore your interpretation is circumstantial

There were many places like Park Farm back then sadly now they are a shadow of their former self now


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## ester (24 April 2016)

HGA-12 said:



			??   what is that supposed to mean
		
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It means that most of the people training for their AI are not at one of the places you have listed, particularly as some of them don't even exist any more!

As you say yourself but you were talking earlier like these 'training yards' still exist and are producing excellent AIs, when the truth is they don't exist like that any more.


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## ILuvCowparsely (24 April 2016)

Okay I have better things to do that argue the *******This thread is going no where.


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## be positive (24 April 2016)

HGA-12 said:



			??   what is that supposed to mean
		
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The type of yard you describe, similar to where I trained, is still there but most students do not train in that environment now most go to college or uni and do not learn what the real world is like, they learn in classrooms, ride in arenas with health and safety a priority, no riding in from fields leading 2 each side, everything changed when colleges started doing equine courses, most commercial yards now struggle to get students or WP's in for training.


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## PolarSkye (24 April 2016)

HGA-12 said:



			I give up over to you TNAVAS   NOTHING this day and time I have seen like the training yards back then.  You would not understand unless like the other hundreds of students going through  the yard. 


 Riding establishments are not as intense as they were

 THis was yard rememebr we trained there and we can compare it too  standard livery yards today they are not the same, you can not base it the smae since you have no clue what it was like.
		
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Right . . . and this is my first time at the rodeo.  Ha!

I'm 50 years old - I've been around the block a time or two myself . . . I have eyes in my head and a brain between my ears . . . most of the horsey people I know have been in this game for a long time . . . stop patronizing and recognize that other people might actually have a flipping clue.

My fuse is pretty short these days . . . and you've just lit it.  Your condescending, know-it-all attitude (and Tnavas' while we're at it) gets right on my wick . . . I've tried to be patient and accommodating and polite.  I've tried (really flipping hard) to be non partisan.  You, however, seem to have an axe to grind . . . I don't like axes.  Debate?  Fine.  Cant?  Not so much.  

P


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## ester (24 April 2016)

be positive said:



			The type of yard you describe, similar to where I trained, is still there but most students do not train in that environment now most go to college or uni and do not learn what the real world is like, they learn in classrooms, ride in arenas with health and safety a priority, no riding in from fields leading 2 each side, everything changed when colleges started doing equine courses, most commercial yards now struggle to get students or WP's in for training.
		
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Yes, this!


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## ILuvCowparsely (24 April 2016)

be positive said:



			The type of yard you describe, similar to where I trained, is still there but most students do not train in that environment now most go to college or uni and do not learn what the real world is like, they learn in classrooms, ride in arenas with health and safety a priority, no riding in from fields leading 2 each side, everything changed when colleges started doing equine courses, most commercial yards now struggle to get students or WP's in for training.
		
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Sadly I know, it was hard work back then but I loved it (part from the D/xia) bit, I now have 9 horses to do daily on my own and I can tell you running this yard for one day is NOTHING compared to 1 day at PF. One whole day here is less than 1/2 a day at PF.  Battlerswells field took around 20 minutes to walk to one way to get horses in, I was so fit and skinny in those days

wish i could turn back the clock


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## Tnavas (24 April 2016)

ester said:



			It means that most of the people training for their AI are not at one of the places you have listed, particularly as some of them don't even exist any more!

As you say yourself but you were talking earlier like these 'training yards' still exist and are producing excellent AIs, when the truth is they don't exist like that any more.
		
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May not be in the numbers but they do still exist, are still taking in students from all over the world and are still known worldwide by equestrian employment agencies


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## ester (24 April 2016)

Yes, which is why I said most won't, a lucky few will.


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## _GG_ (24 April 2016)

The vast majority of posters are trying to be helpful to the OP. Then there are two posters banging on about yards from 30 years ago which is completely irrelevant, coming across as incredibly patronising and condescending and showing a total inability to be open to alternative methods of training. HGA-12 and TNAVAS, if you love the BHS exams so much, stop representing BHS qualified trainers so poorly on here. You are not coming across as the kind of people I'd want teaching anyone!


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## PolarSkye (24 April 2016)

Tnavas said:



			May not be in the numbers but they do still exist, are still taking in students from all over the world and are still known worldwide by equestrian employment agencies
		
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Known is not necessarily the same thing as effective.  GCSEs and A levels are "known" as qualifications in this country to fit young people ready for work . . . yet we have many corporations saying that these certificates (as well as degrees) don't ready young adults for the work place.  

Just because you give someone a certificate, doesn't mean they're actually ready to do the job at hand - whatever that job is.

P


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## _GG_ (24 April 2016)

And I have a combination of both growing up with hugely experienced horsemen and women and training at one of Europe's largest and most prestigious equine training centres. None would be very impressed with some of the attitudes on here.


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## AdorableAlice (24 April 2016)

be positive said:



			The type of yard you describe, similar to where I trained, is still there but most students do not train in that environment now most go to college or uni and do not learn what the real world is like, they learn in classrooms, ride in arenas with health and safety a priority, no riding in from fields leading 2 each side, everything changed when colleges started doing equine courses, most commercial yards now struggle to get students or WP's in for training.
		
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And the very reason why most professionals and yards will not employ college leavers.  Sadly they don't have a clue when they get in the workplace.


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## ILuvCowparsely (24 April 2016)

_GG_ said:



			The vast majority of posters are trying to be helpful to the OP. Then there are two posters banging on about yards from 30 years ago which is completely irrelevant, coming across as incredibly patronising and condescending and showing a total inability to be open to alternative methods of training. HGA-12 and TNAVAS, if you love the BHS exams so much, stop representing BHS qualified trainers so poorly on here. You are not coming across as the kind of people I'd want teaching anyone!
		
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Try reading  previous posters  they were saying the AI is worth nothing and any numpty person can do it which is why we responded.  How would you like it if someone started saying your qualification was worth nothing and meant nothing to clients coming or looking for an instructor.



JFTD said:



			Any numpty who can sit on a horse fairly sensibly can become an AI with enough effort, in my experience.  Many of the AIs round here are super for teaching little kids to play ponies, or nervous adults, but wouldn't know where to start with real work - which is fine for most as they market themselves appropriately.
		
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## Tnavas (24 April 2016)

_GG_ said:



			The vast majority of posters are trying to be helpful to the OP. Then there are two posters banging on about yards from 30 years ago which is completely irrelevant, coming across as incredibly patronising and condescending and showing a total inability to be open to alternative methods of training. HGA-12 and TNAVAS, if you love the BHS exams so much, stop representing BHS qualified trainers so poorly on here. You are not coming across as the kind of people I'd want teaching anyone!
		
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Read the earlier posts, helpful?!!! certainly not and yes we are defending the BHS system as a result of the slagging that one person gave it. Don't forget, that we the people who qualified all those years ago are the coaches, that coached the coaches that now coach you. We were taught by older people but we had respect for our elders unlike the modern generation. 

As a professional coach who had a commercial riding school I only hired BHS qualified coaches, because the general public only want their children or themselves taught by qualified people. 300+ people a week can't all be wrong

It also reduces my insurance premiums! I know what I'm getting, my riders get taught correctly and my school ponies and horses remain well schooled.


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## minesadouble (24 April 2016)

I wouldn't slate the BHS system but have always viewed the AI qualification as the first rung on a ladder. I'm assuming that it still stands for 'Assistant Instructor', I don't really understand why anyone would stop at that point rather than progressing to II?
When looking for a coach/trainer I always put more store by their own competition
results rather than paper qualifications.


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## Tnavas (24 April 2016)

So here we have the criteria for UKCC
UK Coaching Certificates (UKCCs) are qualifications designed to raise the level of coaching skills throughout the UK in all sports.
Recognised by the Qualifications Credit Framework (QCF), all three levels are endorsed by Sports Coach UK. They are designed for coaching only and do not recognise horse care or riding skills. In these areas, BHS qualifications remain the major qualifications and when coupled with UKCCs, show that those within the industry have the necessary all-round equestrian skills and knowledge.
The first three levels of UK Coaching Certificates are:
&#8226; Level 1 Coaching Assistant (below PTT level) 
&#8226; Level 2 (PTT level) 
&#8226; Level 3 (Intermediate Teaching Test level)
NOTE The UKCC coach has not proved that they can ride or help you with the care of your horse, your BHS coach can! Which may mean they can't help you with saddle fit or if you have the right bit.

There really is no difference, except the BHS person has proved they have ALL ROUND knowledge.

Oh and what is the recommended reading for the UKCC exams? The BHS books........


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## daffy44 (24 April 2016)

My goodness! I bet this was more than the OP bargained for!  The BHS system is not for everyone, but as with every system, there is good and bad within it.  Different clients will want different things from their trainers, and will choose accordingly, as someone said earlier (eventingmum?) training is a threeway relationship between the rider, trainer and horse, and the chemistry has to be right.  

I would stress that appropriate insurance and current first aid are a necessity for any trainer as a starting point.  I think its one of the great things about the BD list of trainers, is that you can be sure of these requirements as well as any other qualifications.


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## JFTDWS (24 April 2016)

HGA-12 said:



			Try reading  previous posters  they were saying the AI is worth nothing and any numpty person can do it which is why we responded.  How would you like it if someone started saying your qualification was worth nothing and meant nothing to clients coming or looking for an instructor.
		
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Unfortunately, no matter how much you wail about how hard it was for you, I'm entitled to that opinion, and I remain entitled to express it. 

I can't speak for clients generally, but I can speak for myself (and, to an extent, acquaintances with whom I've had similar discussions).  The AI means nothing *to me*, in my capacity as a client of freelance instructors.  That's fact - and you can't just shout about how unfair it is and make that fact disappear.



Tnavas said:



			Read the earlier posts, helpful?!!! certainly not
		
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The OP asked about whether the BHS or UKCC qualifications would be a bonus if she were to become a freelance instructor, not in an RS.  She asked what people look for.  My posts answered that question, from my perspective, that the qualifications mean nothing to me when looking for an instructor.

I'm not sure why you feel I should be under an obligation to promote the exam system or the BHS or AIs generally.  I'm entitled to my own opinions.


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## FfionWinnie (24 April 2016)

HGA-12 said:



			Try reading  previous posters  they were saying the AI is worth nothing and any numpty person can do it which is why we responded.  How would you like it if someone started saying your qualification was worth nothing and meant nothing to clients coming or looking for an instructor.
		
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You are doing a great job of proving yourself to be like SOME of the numpty AIs ONE poster mentioned ONCE. 

What a bore you are being!


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## teapot (24 April 2016)

Tnavas said:



			So here we have the criteria for UKCC
UK Coaching Certificates (UKCCs) are qualifications designed to raise the level of coaching skills throughout the UK in all sports.
Recognised by the Qualifications Credit Framework (QCF), all three levels are endorsed by Sports Coach UK. They are designed for coaching only and do not recognise horse care or riding skills. In these areas, BHS qualifications remain the major qualifications and when coupled with UKCCs, show that those within the industry have the necessary all-round equestrian skills and knowledge.
The first three levels of UK Coaching Certificates are:
&#8226; Level 1 Coaching Assistant (below PTT level) 
&#8226; Level 2 (PTT level) 
&#8226; Level 3 (Intermediate Teaching Test level)
NOTE The UKCC coach has not proved that they can ride or help you with the care of your horse, your BHS coach can! Which may mean they can't help you with saddle fit or if you have the right bit.

There really is no difference, except the BHS person has proved they have ALL ROUND knowledge.

Oh and what is the recommended reading for the UKCC exams? The BHS books........
		
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Actually the ukcc level 2 DOES require knowledge of aspects of horse care - digestion, fitting of tack, fittening, anatomy including all aspects of the hoof, recognising a lame horse etc etc.


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## Tnavas (24 April 2016)

JFTD said:



			Unfortunately, no matter how much you wail about how hard it was for you, I'm entitled to that opinion, and I remain entitled to express it. 

I can't speak for clients generally, but I can speak for myself (and, to an extent, acquaintances with whom I've had similar discussions).  The AI means nothing *to me*, in my capacity as a client of freelance instructors.  That's fact - and you can't just shout about how unfair it is and make that fact disappear.



The OP asked about whether the BHS or UKCC qualifications would be a bonus if she were to become a freelance instructor, not in an RS.  She asked what people look for.  My posts answered that question, from my perspective, that the qualifications mean nothing to me when looking for an instructor.

I'm not sure why you feel I should be under an obligation to promote the exam system or the BHS or AIs generally.  I'm entitled to my own opinions.
		
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No you are not obliged to promote the exam system or the BHS or AI's generally but neither do you have the right to brand folks as numpties or disrespect a system that has stood the test of time for 70 odd years. Bear in mind that the coaches that currently coach were probably coached by the coaches that we coached many years ago. Equestrian riders throughout the UK owe a considerable amount to the foresight, hardwork and dedication of the BHS.

I wonder how many of you are members to make use of the Public Liability Insurance?


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## Tnavas (24 April 2016)

teapot said:



			Actually the ukcc level 2 DOES require knowledge of aspects of horse care - digestion, fitting of tack, fittening, anatomy including all aspects of the hoof, recognising a lame horse etc etc.
		
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What I wrote in my post was copied verbatim from their site. They do not cover horsecare or riding, they are riding coaching only


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## teapot (24 April 2016)

Tnavas said:



			What I wrote in my post was copied verbatim from their site. They do not cover horsecare or riding, they are riding coaching only
		
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Incorrect. Taken from the Bef website. This is what's required for level 2 and there is no way you can pass this if you do not understand or know what you're teaching! 


    Prepare to ride - lead and turn a horse/pony.
    Check & adjust tack. Adjust stirrups. Adjust reins correctly
    Correct position in the saddle. Basic suppleness as required in the riding position. Rhythm and balance maintained through turns and circles. Ride forward. Correct hand/ rein position
    Warm-up for horse. Free walk. Trot. Canter. Changes of direction, turns, circles, transitions.
    Independent seat - balance, security and straightness with and without stirrups in walk, trot and canter.
    Co-ordinated aids when riding with the reins in one hand.
    Co-ordinated aid application. Preparation when making transitions.
    Correct canter strike-offs.
    Correctly sized and shaped school figures.
    Fluent unconstrained work of the horse. Understand and be able to apply diagonals in trot. Recognise leading leg in canter. Simple moving the horse/pony way from the leg exercises. Variations of pace within the trot. Develop free forward movement. Riding in the open and over undulating terrain.
    Secure balanced jumping position that does not hinder the horse. Correct use of the reins riding over poles, jumps and a course of fences appropriate length of stirrup.
    Safe tack & saddlery
    First aid procedures, reporting. Appropriate dress, working with horses, riding, jumping.
    Basic knowledge of equine behaviour/ psychology Natural lifestyle.

Link is here: http://www.bef.co.uk/Detail.aspx?page=ukcc-level-2 

Plus if you look at the sample portfolios on the RDA website, you'll see questions about lameness, what the white line represents, the role of the frog, signs tack doesn't fit etc.

ETS, this is level 3:

Riding position - correct position in the saddle. suppleness as required in the riding position. Show poise, balance and the ability to absorb and follow the horse's movement in all three gaits. Rhythm, balance and forward maintained throughout. Correct position/ use, single, double reins
    Warm-up for horse - Free walk. Trot. Canter. Changes of direction, Turns, circles, transitions. Simple lateral exercises.
    Independent seat
    Ride horses forward to a receiving hand.
    Maintain the horse in good form throughout independently of the reins and stirrups. Balance, security and straightness with and without stirrups in walk, trot and canter.
    Co-ordinated aids when riding with the reins in one hand.
    Natural aids Fluent co-ordinated aid application. Preparation when making transitions and changes of direction. Lateral work up to and including leg-yielding and walk demi pirouettes.
    When and when not to use the whip.
    Plan preparation & execution of transitions and school figures, as well as exercises to increase the horse's obedience and suppleness, variations of pace within the trot. Riding in the open and over undulating terrain.
    Balanced, secure position suitable for riding over undulating ground. Appreciation of terrain and ground conditions.
    Secure, supple, balanced jumping position with a secure lower leg. Influencing not hindering the horse. Correct use of the reins. Riding over poles, jumps and a course of jumps Appropriate length of stirrup. Effective use of leg. Correct application of rein aids. Fluency through the phases of the jump allowing the horse freedom over poles, fences, grids and courses. Balance and rhythm when riding a course of show jumps and or cross country fences. Correct forward jumping position.  Secure position when jumping. Effective control of pace. Fluently ridden course. Correct canter leads.


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## JFTDWS (24 April 2016)

Tnavas said:



			No you are not obliged to promote the exam system or the BHS or AI's generally but neither do you have the right to brand folks as numpties or disrespect a system that has stood the test of time for 70 odd years. Bear in mind that the coaches that currently coach were probably coached by the coaches that we coached many years ago. Equestrian riders throughout the UK owe a considerable amount to the foresight, hardwork and dedication of the BHS.

I wonder how many of you are members to make use of the Public Liability Insurance?
		
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Why on earth would I care who you trained, and who trained whom?  Whoever trained some of the AIs I've met produced a poor end result.  If you trained them, or trained those who trained them, maybe you didn't do a good job.  Or maybe you did, and they just weren't capable of taking that training on board.  I don't know, and I sure as hell don't care...

I'm also not sure why you think you have the right to police my opinion on individuals I have met, who I do believe to be numpties.  I haven't named people personally, or criticised any specific individual (unlike you), and as such, my comments are legally, and morally, defensible.  On those grounds, I absolutely have the right to voice them.

I'm a BHS member because I support their Welfare campaigns and services.  I have higher value PL insurance in addition to this.


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## daffy44 (24 April 2016)

I have my UKCC level 2, yes the main focus is on coaching, but other aspects are also covered as teapot said.


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## Tnavas (24 April 2016)

teapot said:



			Incorrect. Taken from the Bef website. This is what's required for level 2 and there is no way you can pass this if you do not understand or know what you're teaching! 


    Prepare to ride - lead and turn a horse/pony.
    Check & adjust tack. Adjust stirrups. Adjust reins correctly
    Correct position in the saddle. Basic suppleness as required in the riding position. Rhythm and balance maintained through turns and circles. Ride forward. Correct hand/ rein position
    Warm-up for horse. Free walk. Trot. Canter. Changes of direction, turns, circles, transitions.
    Independent seat - balance, security and straightness with and without stirrups in walk, trot and canter.
    Co-ordinated aids when riding with the reins in one hand.
    Co-ordinated aid application. Pr is eparation when making transitions.
    Correct canter strike-offs.
    Correctly sized and shaped school figures.
    Fluent unconstrained work of the horse. Understand and be able to apply diagonals in trot. Recognise leading leg in canter. Simple moving the horse/pony way from the leg exercises. Variations of pace within the trot. Develop free forward movement. Riding in the open and over undulating terrain.
    Secure balanced jumping position that does not hinder the horse. Correct use of the reins riding over poles, jumps and a course of fences appropriate length of stirrup.
    Safe tack & saddlery
    First aid procedures, reporting. Appropriate dress, working with horses, riding, jumping.
    Basic knowledge of equine behaviour/ psychology Natural lifestyle.

Link is here: http://www.bef.co.uk/Detail.aspx?page=ukcc-level-2 

Plus if you look at the sample portfolios on the RDA website, you'll see questions about lameness, what the white line represents, the role of the frog, signs tack doesn't fit etc.

ETS, this is level 3:

Riding position - correct position in the saddle. suppleness as required in the riding position. Show poise, balance and the ability to absorb and follow the horse's movement in all three gaits. Rhythm, balance and forward maintained throughout. Correct position/ use, single, double reins
    Warm-up for horse - Free walk. Trot. Canter. Changes of direction, Turns, circles, transitions. Simple lateral exercises.
    Independent seat
    Ride horses forward to a receiving hand.
    Maintain the horse in good form throughout independently of the reins and stirrups. Balance, security and straightness with and without stirrups in walk, trot and canter.
    Co-ordinated aids when riding with the reins in one hand.
    Natural aids Fluent co-ordinated aid application. Preparation when making transitions and changes of direction. Lateral work up to and including leg-yielding and walk demi pirouettes.
    When and when not to use the whip.
    Plan preparation & execution of transitions and school figures, as well as exercises to increase the horse's obedience and suppleness, variations of pace within the trot. Riding in the open and over undulating terrain.
    Balanced, secure position suitable for riding over undulating ground. Appreciation of terrain and ground conditions.
    Secure, supple, balanced jumping position with a secure lower leg. Influencing not hindering the horse. Correct use of the reins. Riding over poles, jumps and a course of jumps Appropriate length of stirrup. Effective use of leg. Correct application of rein aids. Fluency through the phases of the jump allowing the horse freedom over poles, fences, grids and courses. Balance and rhythm when riding a course of show jumps and or cross country fences. Correct forward jumping position.  Secure position when jumping. Effective control of pace. Fluently ridden course. Correct canter leads.
		
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Candidates don't ride, these are all teaching subjects, there are variations within each society/discipline. The generic UKCC states clearly that it is a coaching system and that the coaches riding and horse management are not part of the exam


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## teapot (24 April 2016)

Tnavas said:



			Candidates don't ride, these are all teaching subjects, there are variations within each society/discipline. The generic UKCC states clearly that it is a coaching system and that the coaches riding and horse management are not part of the exam
		
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Never said they did ride, but the point is the ukcc levels still require more knowledge then people give them credit for, including equine knowledge.

I stand by the fact I don't need to do my Stage 3 riding (which is a requirement of the AI) to teach a good RDA lesson, and RDA as a national body would agree. The AI isn't the be all and end all.


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## _GG_ (24 April 2016)

HGA-12 said:



			Try reading  previous posters  they were saying the AI is worth nothing and any numpty person can do it which is why we responded.  How would you like it if someone started saying your qualification was worth nothing and meant nothing to clients coming or looking for an instructor.
		
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I don't need to try reading them, I did read them. All I can see is someone saying that anyone can attain the AI qualification and I agree with that. The word numpty was unnecessary, but just an exaggeration to make a point and I think 99% of people would take it that way. What I found far more offensive was the tone you and Tnavas have used in your posts. Two wrongs don't make a right and the continual erroneous assumptions about people and what we don't or can't know are frankly rude, dismissive and not at all what the BHS would support at a time when they are making huge changes to their training programmes to reflect the fact that they know more about horses now and no longer agree with much of what they were teaching back then. You have both been really quite rude to other posters on here, some of a younger generation, some not...but if you're as old as you say you are, you should know better than to speak to people with such rudeness. Please read my other posts, the ones that supported BHS qualifications, don't just highlight the bits I've written that you can disagree with. Nobody has said your qualification is worth nothing...people have just said that it is not always perceived as being as useful as you might like to think it should be perceived as. That's not their fault...that's the fault of the training system nowadays, because I do think it was much harder 20+ years ago...it certainly was when I was studying. I say that because there are countless AI instructors up and down the country that are genuinely awful instructors. That's not so much even a slight on the BHS because the vast majority of those poor instructors are poor because of their own failings, not because of the BHS. It is possible for pretty much anyone to learn enough to pass and achieve their AI. I don't know why that's being taken as a criticism here? It's a good thing, it's the first step on a ladder, an entry level qualification as the BHS themselves say. AI Instructors shouldn't be going out teaching advanced riders...it is advised that they may need additional support in new environments. They say that because it is entry level, so it's not a bad thing to point that out. I just don't understand why you find it so offensive. 

If someone gets their AI and never bothers going further, that's fine...it doesn't mean they are not good enough to teach more advanced lessons or that they can't be really good instructors, but it also means that they will mostly be perceived as not being as good and that is what the BHS themselves designed the stages for. If you call the BHS and say you want to do elementary dressage, they'll tell you to find an ITT or II, they won't tell you to find an AI because they won't recognise your experience, they'll only recognise your proven (through their exams) qualifications. 



Tnavas said:



			Read the earlier posts, helpful?!!! certainly not and yes we are defending the BHS system as a result of the slagging that one person gave it. Don't forget, that we the people who qualified all those years ago are the coaches, that coached the coaches that now coach you. We were taught by older people but we had respect for our elders unlike the modern generation. 

As a professional coach who had a commercial riding school I only hired BHS qualified coaches, because the general public only want their children or themselves taught by qualified people. 300+ people a week can't all be wrong

It also reduces my insurance premiums! I know what I'm getting, my riders get taught correctly and my school ponies and horses remain well schooled.
		
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I just don't get this. Nobody is slagging off the BHS. People are highlighting that it isn't the only route to teaching. They are highlighting that being an AI instructor doesn't mean you are a good instructor. What people are doing that you don't seem to like is telling you and HGA-12 that your posts, comments and assumptions about other people, which you've continued above, are down right annoying, pointless, unhelpful to the OP and frankly, rude. 

You, the people who qualified all those years ago haven't coached the coaches that have coached me. You may have coached them at an early point in their careers, but as they are FBHS, they wouldn't have had much time being coached by an AI. That's not a criticism, that's following the correct path that the BHS has laid down. Saying things like that is ridiculous. You have no idea who any of us have been coached by. Unless you're in your 90's, you definitely didn't coach the person who did the majority of my teaching when I was younger so stop with the assumptions and self appointed godlike mentality. 

I am dumbfounded at your comment about you respecting your elders unlike the modern generation. It goes both ways. Respect should be earned and you haven't earned any on this thread with the attitude that you have shown. Some other posters may have said the odd rude thing, but you and HGA-12 have been rude to pretty much everyone else on the thread and you're so far up that pedestal you've put yourselves on that you can't even see it. 

You are both creating your own arguments because you're failing to take things the way they are being written, you're just alienating people through your rude, assumptive and condescending posts and you are doing the BHS no favours whatsoever. 

If I ran a riding school, I would only hire BHS qualified instructors, because that's what people who use riding schools want. However, if someone came to me tomorrow wanting a dressage lesson as they are working towards their PSG debut, I'd tell them to go to Adam Kemp, who is an FBHS...or to Olivia Oakeley, who isn't even 25 yet, not qualified, but an incredibly talented coach. It's all about the target, which is why I gave relevant advice to the OP to think about her target market and make her decision from there, but supporting BHS qualifications...because I do support them. I just don't think they guarantee a good instructor at the AI level.

This whole thing is just sad, because you both clearly love and really believe in the BHS and its training system, but you can't seem to recognise that you are painting it in a very poor light with your attitudes to other people. You are professional instructors, you shouldn't be communicating with people in this manner. You are representing the BHS by virtue of your qualifications, but I'm pretty sure they'd be rather ticked off with how you are portraying them in this thread. They are working so hard at the moment to overhaul their image, which they feel they need to do as they recognise the need to update their teaching methods as time has moved on and we know more about horses than we did 30+ years ago. They want to move away from the methods of old and have their system reflect the new advances in what we know about horses and effective training. 

Think on that. You keep banging on about how much better things were back in the day, but that is precisely what the BHS is now trying to move away from as they try to improve. I haven't read or heard that...I've been at BHS HQ a number of times in the past year, talking to their World Class, Training and Welfare department heads...they are investing very heavily in improvement across the board.


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## daffy44 (24 April 2016)

Brilliant gg


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## Tnavas (24 April 2016)

teapot said:



			Never said they did ride, but the point is the ukcc levels still require more knowledge then people give them credit for, including equine knowledge.

I stand by the fact I don't need to do my Stage 3 riding (which is a requirement of the AI) to teach a good RDA lesson, and RDA as a national body would agree. The AI isn't the be all and end all.
		
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Take it up with them, it's their statement not mine! Good on you for working with RDA they do an amazing job.


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## ILuvCowparsely (25 April 2016)

FfionWinnie said:



			You are doing a great job of proving yourself to be like SOME of the numpty AIs ONE poster mentioned ONCE. 

What a bore you are being!
		
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Oh for gawd sake FF  you know nothing about being an AI or having working so hard to get  to have a nobody  saying what they did.   Your  the mumpty  and just trying to fuel the fire by throwing  names at me,  you go on UI to bye bye.


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## ILuvCowparsely (25 April 2016)

GG
		
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Deleted


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## ester (25 April 2016)

HGA-12 said:



			Oh for gawd sake FF  you know nothing about being an AI or having working so hard to get  to have a nobody  saying what they did.   Your  the mumpty  and just trying to fuel the fire by throwing  names at me,  you go on UI to bye bye.
		
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You're going to have to write this again if you want anyone to know what you are trying to say, particularly the middle bit.


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## ester (25 April 2016)

Tnavas said:



			neither do you have the right to brand folks as numpties or disrespect a system that has stood the test of time for 70 odd years.
		
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Age of systems have nothing to do with anything or the quality of training - otherwise the FRC wouldn't have been banned from having any new apprentices until they sorted themselves out!


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## Goldenstar (25 April 2016)

Personally I think it silly to say everybody could get the AI .
Many people will never ride well enough to attain stage three ,to say that every human has the balance the physical and physiological attributes to ride at stage three level is simply silly.
I know lots of people enjoying low level hacking who who never ride well enough for stage three .
Many people are not brave enough to jump particularly on strange horses . 
If stage three was so easy they would be churning them out of the equine college near me and they are not .


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## The Fuzzy Furry (25 April 2016)

Goldenstar said:



			Personally I think it silly to say everybody could get the AI .
Many people will never ride well enough to attain stage three ,to say that every human has the balance the physical and physiological attributes to ride at stage three level is simply silly.
I know lots of people enjoying low level hacking who who never ride well enough for stage three .
Many people are not brave enough to jump particularly on strange horses . 
If stage three was so easy they would be churning them out of the equine college near me and they are not .
		
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This ^

Some I trained for their AI were just not good enough in the end  to go forwards to exam, others were very good riders who could not impart knowledge to others, yet others who taught very well were not to 'the standard' for riding over all phases.

Those who want to follow teaching levels, DO carry on, please do not be deterrred from going further if you can. Everyone has their limits but knowledge can be gained however good you are.


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## ILuvCowparsely (25 April 2016)

Goldenstar said:



			Personally I think it silly to say everybody could get the AI .
Many people will never ride well enough to attain stage three ,to say that every human has the balance the physical and physiological attributes to ride at stage three level is simply silly.
I know lots of people enjoying low level hacking who who never ride well enough for stage three .
Many people are not brave enough to jump particularly on strange horses . 
If stage three was so easy they would be churning them out of the equine college near me and they are not .
		
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That is what we are trying to say GS it is silly ty , that is our point which they cannot undertsand.  There will be establisments who pass candidates easier than when we did it.  TY for this.  This whole matter would not have escalated, had the one poster not said what they said about the BHS and its training and qualifications.  Obviously those who are proud of their qualifications and run their own establisments the BHS way will be miffed and the coments  that were said

I mean if you cannot stand up for what you believe in what can you stand up for ( even though sometimes I don't word it right )ok I calmed down


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## FfionWinnie (25 April 2016)

HGA-12 said:



			Oh for gawd sake FF  you know nothing about being an AI or having working so hard to get  to have a nobody  saying what they did.   Your  the mumpty  and just trying to fuel the fire by throwing  names at me,  you go on UI to bye bye.
		
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Excellent news. Just a shame it doesn't make you evaporate from my view too.


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## _GG_ (25 April 2016)

Goldenstar said:



			Personally I think it silly to say everybody could get the AI .
Many people will never ride well enough to attain stage three ,to say that every human has the balance the physical and physiological attributes to ride at stage three level is simply silly.
I know lots of people enjoying low level hacking who who never ride well enough for stage three .
Many people are not brave enough to jump particularly on strange horses . 
If stage three was so easy they would be churning them out of the equine college near me and they are not .
		
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The Fuzzy Furry said:



			This ^

Some I trained for their AI were just not good enough in the end  to go forwards to exam, others were very good riders who could not impart knowledge to others, yet others who taught very well were not to 'the standard' for riding over all phases.

Those who want to follow teaching levels, DO carry on, please do not be deterrred from going further if you can. Everyone has their limits but knowledge can be gained however good you are.
		
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Agree with both of these statements. I can only speak for myself, but I said what I did because I do genuinely believe that if someone wants to, despite not necessarily being good enough, they can pass the stage 3 even if it takes 10 attempts, to get their AI because there are so many brilliant coaches out there who can get them through it. It doesn't mean they should really be teaching. That doesn't and shouldn't belittle the AI qualification as I think I've made quite clear.

This is no different to someone eventually being made a good enough driver to pass their driving test...it happens all the time, more than in BHS exams for sure but it does happen. 

The point is surely that qualifications are never bad, but that not everyone requires that their coach has them. I am all for the BHS, especially with the way they are moving now. I did my training on an extreme strict BHS college yard and still live by that. It's just not needed by everybody nowadays and it's a shame that has caused such a fuss on this thread.


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## ester (25 April 2016)

HGA-12 said:



			That is what we are trying to say GS it is silly ty , that is our point which they cannot undertsand.
		
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Funny isn't it that we can understand GS. 

I'm proud of my qualifications but I wouldn't take umbrage if someone said any numpty can do a PhD if the work hard enough, or people with PhDs have no common sense etc etc. I still don't understand why you and Tnavas turned it personal and wonder if you are expecting some sort of 'BHS supporters' badge, now where is BHS_Lee when you need him .


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## ILuvCowparsely (25 April 2016)

ester said:



			Funny isn't it that we can understand GS. 

I'm proud of my qualifications but I wouldn't take umbrage if someone said any numpty can do a PhD if the work hard enough, or people with PhDs have no common sense etc etc. I still don't understand why you and Tnavas turned it personal and wonder if you are expecting some sort of 'BHS supporters' badge, now where is BHS_Lee when you need him .
		
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Yes funny that I must be from another planet ( what part of the last thread have you forgotten?? ) 

 We don't see why so many jumped on the band wagon long after we had more or less put our point across to the individual  but so many decided to add and re ignite it and are still doing so.  I think our feelings are clear and not much more to say Nuff said.


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## JFTDWS (25 April 2016)

ester said:



			Funny isn't it that we can understand GS. 

I'm proud of my qualifications but I wouldn't take umbrage if someone said any numpty can do a PhD if the work hard enough, or people with PhDs have no common sense etc etc. I still don't understand why you and Tnavas turned it personal and wonder if you are expecting some sort of 'BHS supporters' badge, now where is BHS_Lee when you need him .
		
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I do actually, often say that - not the common sense thing, that the vast majority of folk could get a PhD with enough effort and training, if they wanted to - despite having one myself.  

I feel similarly about the AI - if you want it enough, and are prepared to throw enough money and effort at it, I do believe most people could pass the current s3, given the multiple attempts at the exams you can take.  Certainly there are AIs in my area who I wonder how on earth many attempts it took them.  I'm more than happy to agree with disagree with TFF and GS amicably, on that point - perhaps they have a lower opinion of human resourcefulness than me.  Or a higher opinion of human self-respect


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## _GG_ (25 April 2016)

HGA-12 said:



			Yes funny that I must be from another planet ( what part of the last thread have you forgotten?? ) 

 We don't see why so many jumped on the band wagon long after we had more or less put our point across to the individual  but so many decided to add and re ignite it and are still doing so.  I think our feelings are clear and not much more to say Nuff said.
		
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Again, I can only speak for myself, but I chpiped in because I read through and felt that the two of you completely derailed the thread to your own agenda under the illusion you were helping the OP - which you weren't. You were also both conducting yourselves in a manner that I felt damaging to the BHSand rude to other people...and as a supporter of the BHS, I wanted to highlight that.

Take a step back and look at the way you have spoken to others on this thread...it us not a good portrayal of a professional person. You also can't use the excuse that someone else was rude first, because none of us are in pre-school!


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## ester (25 April 2016)

HGA-12 said:



			you know nothing about being an AI or having working so hard to get  to have a nobody  saying what they did.
		
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Well as I said, I don't think you can expect people to interpret your posts correctly when they read as this does. 
You seem to think it is the readers fault when they don't understand the point you are pointing across. Perhaps if you did so as TFF and GS did this thread wouldn't have gotten to this point!

Helping the OP and helping the BHS _GG_ and I don't think either were achieved.


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## ruth83 (25 April 2016)

This has been a lengthy thread! 

I'm going to wade in and be the boring person here. I hope all of you who have expressed an opinion (either way) on this thread have taken part in the BHS Education Consultation - a survey they are running to help them reshape the exam system. 
http://www.bhs.org.uk/our-charity/press-centre/news/jan-to-jun-2016/education-consultation


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## ester (25 April 2016)

No because I hadn't heard of it despite being a member.


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## ruth83 (25 April 2016)

ester said:



			No because I hadn't heard of it despite being a member.
		
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There have been mentions in the magazine, in emails and on Facebook - it may depend on what you have subscribed to or blocked and whether you have read the emails.

There should also be posters in most approved centres. Local committees may have placed them in tack shops etc but this depends how active they are and how many volunteers they have.


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## ester (25 April 2016)

I will do it now  thanks for the heads up


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## Tiddlypom (25 April 2016)

Thanks, ruth83, I hadn't previously noticed the BHS survey either, despite being a Gold member. I have now completed it (though my only BHS qualification is the Riding and Road Safety certificate ).

Re PHDs. I haven't got one, but those folk I know who do have one (such as my OH), seem to reckon that they are as much a measure of dogged determination as of high innate intelligence. Both are valuable attributes, of course .


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## CoachinaCar (25 April 2016)

I have been teaching for 46 years, firstly in a riding school where I took my BHS exams and for the last 36 years as a freelance Dressage trainer. 
10 years ago I decided to train for and take my UKCC, I learnt so much about Coaching people, rider centred coaching, holistic coaching, it has transformed how I now Coach, my riders noticed a difference and have been so inspired by the new style, it was the best thing I have ever done.
I have always been very conscientious about keeping up to date with my technical knowledge and have successfully trained riders to International Grand Prix but I now make sure I keep up to date with my coaching skills as well, I owe it to my riders that are keen to learn and have been with me for many years.
I would not train with someone that did not have the get up and go to improve themselves and were prepared to put their neck on the line to have their ability assessed.


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## ester (25 April 2016)

CoachinaCar, my initial response to your post was OMG how have you put up with people for 46 years, let alone horsey people. Here have a medal :eek3:


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## Goldenstar (25 April 2016)

I should guess that OP is now training as an off grid spoon whittler .


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## _GG_ (25 April 2016)

CoachinaCar said:



			I have been teaching for 46 years, firstly in a riding school where I took my BHS exams and for the last 36 years as a freelance Dressage trainer. 
10 years ago I decided to train for and take my UKCC, I learnt so much about Coaching people, rider centred coaching, holistic coaching, it has transformed how I now Coach, my riders noticed a difference and have been so inspired by the new style, it was the best thing I have ever done.
I have always been very conscientious about keeping up to date with my technical knowledge and have successfully trained riders to International Grand Prix but I now make sure I keep up to date with my coaching skills as well, I owe it to my riders that are keen to learn and have been with me for many years.
I would not train with someone that did not have the get up and go to improve themselves and were prepared to put their neck on the line to have their ability assessed.
		
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Now, you sound like the perfect coach! Flexible, willing to learn and open to the fact that there is always still stuff to learn. You're far more qualified by the sounds of it than most of us and I too take my hat off to you for doing it for 46 years!!


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## JFTDWS (25 April 2016)

ester said:



			CoachinaCar, my initial response to your post was OMG how have you put up with people for 46 years, let alone horsey people. Here have a medal :eek3:
		
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Agreed!  Massively impressive - and to still care about how well you're doing it!

I think the desire for CPD is a really good point, actually.  BHS/UKCC is only one route for this (in my opinion, natch) but stagnating at any point is never a good thing - I don't trust any trainer who isn't still training and furthering their own knowledge by some means.

In the words of Mr Pratchett, the presence of those seeking the truth is infinitely preferable to those who think they've found it.


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## CoachinaCar (25 April 2016)

ester and gg thank you, I love what I do and do not feel like I have ever had a proper job so very lucky. Most of my riders have been with me for over 20 years and are now very good friends and wont let me retire.

My advice to anyone that wants to freelance train to keep improving and get those qualifications as working towards qualifications will keep you up to date. For me the UKCC is light years ahead of the BHS qualifications as far as Coaching is concerned but the BHS qualifications taught me about safety and horse welfare and that is not to be sniffed at.


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## ester (25 April 2016)

Horses for courses. 
Boom! Tish!


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## ihatework (25 April 2016)

_GG_ said:



			Again, I can only speak for myself, but I chpiped in because I read through and felt that the two of you completely derailed the thread to your own agenda under the illusion you were helping the OP - which you weren't. You were also both conducting yourselves in a manner that I felt damaging to the BHSand rude to other people...and as a supporter of the BHS, I wanted to highlight that.

Take a step back and look at the way you have spoken to others on this thread...it us not a good portrayal of a professional person. You also can't use the excuse that someone else was rude first, because none of us are in pre-school!
		
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GG has hit the nail on the head here.
The way a couple of BHS 'professionals' have conducted themselves on this thread here is shameful.


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## EventingMum (25 April 2016)

CoachinaCar said:



			ester and gg thank you, I love what I do and do not feel like I have ever had a proper job so very lucky. Most of my riders have been with me for over 20 years and are now very good friends and wont let me retire.

My advice to anyone that wants to freelance train to keep improving and get those qualifications as working towards qualifications will keep you up to date. For me the UKCC is light years ahead of the BHS qualifications as far as Coaching is concerned but the BHS qualifications taught me about safety and horse welfare and that is not to be sniffed at.
		
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While I totally agree with you about keeping up to date it is interesting to note that those doing the PTT - the teaching exam of the AI - can incorporate UKCC level 2 with it . The PTT is now structured along the same principles as UKCC with the emphasis on coaching not instructing. Coaches on the BHS Register of Instructors are also required to attend CPD days.

Personally I did not find doing the UKCC changed the way I coached, unconsciously I think my own personal style had developed along the "coaching" pathway over the years however it was reassuring to know the psychology behind it. Modern coaching is much more "user friendly"  and involves far more participant feedback than old fashioned instructing did where orders were barked at riders with little concern or understanding of the learning process. This has to be so much more effective and the rider feels far more involved in their coaching sessions. Obviously there are still plenty of old school instructors around who haven't availed themselves of new ideas and sadly they can give the industry a bad name. The AI of yesteryear needs to move with the times, there is lots of support available, some through the BHS and it does not necessarily mean taking more exams if you don't want to, all that is required is an open mind.


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## Tnavas (25 April 2016)

A good instructor should develop these as they gain experience, I have never barked out orders or been coached by anyone that has done that, bar one ex cavalry officer who would terrorise us by having everyone in canter, then change the rein all together! and that was in the late 60's.

There is a lot more thought on how people learn, but a good coach is aware of this and teaches each person accordingly.


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## Apercrumbie (25 April 2016)

Lordy I don't think I've ever been less inclined to go looking for a BHS instructor....

OP - in answer to your question, I do think that qualifications are a good way to start, particularly if you're relatively inexperienced as they will give you a good grounding and some good skills.  However, they are not even vaguely the be all and end all and they will not magically transform you into an amazing instructor - far from it.  See them as a useful start and build up your experience from there.  Just don't expect anyone to be impressed - ability is the only thing that impresses.


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## _GG_ (25 April 2016)

Tnavas said:



			A good instructor should develop these as they gain experience, I have never barked out orders or been coached by anyone that has done that, bar one ex cavalry officer who would terrorise us by having everyone in canter, then change the rein all together! and that was in the late 60's.

There is a lot more thought on how people learn, but a good coach is aware of this and teaches each person accordingly.
		
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Are you saying that a good instructor doesn't need to continue learning formally or through openness to new and more up to date methods/knowledge and that they can simply keep learning by doing what they do?

Genuine question as I'm curious how a person can learn more without outside influence, or do you think that influence comes from your clients?


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## Tnavas (26 April 2016)

_GG_ said:



			Are you saying that a good instructor doesn't need to continue learning formally or through openness to new and more up to date methods/knowledge and that they can simply keep learning by doing what they do?

Genuine question as I'm curious how a person can learn more without outside influence, or do you think that influence comes from your clients?
		
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I attend coaching clinics whenever available here, I also organise them for our Area Pony Club, it's one of the hardest clinics to fill, those that attend are a minority amongst coaches, and we invite coaches from out of the area. Getting coaches to accept that they need to keep up skilling is not easy. We have a rudimentary Coaching Qualification system here but getting a nation to change its ways is not easy. It's taken BHS decades to bring as many on board as possible, and through them UK's riders got to improve. In the late 50's we were still riding round in hunting saddles with our feet up the horses nostrils. BHS made a hell of a change, and consider how long it took to get a Dressage gold. Competitive dressage only started in 1961 in UK

I certainly adapt my teaching style to the people I'm teaching.


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## _GG_ (26 April 2016)

Tnavas said:



			I attend coaching clinics whenever available here, I also organise them for our Area Pony Club, it's one of the hardest clinics to fill, those that attend are a minority amongst coaches, and we invite coaches from out of the area. Getting coaches to accept that they need to keep up skilling is not easy. We have a rudimentary Coaching Qualification system here but getting a nation to change its ways is not easy. It's taken BHS decades to bring as many on board as possible, and through them UK's riders got to improve. In the late 50's we were still riding round in hunting saddles with our feet up the horses nostrils. BHS made a hell of a change, and consider how long it took to get a Dressage gold. Competitive dressage only started in 1961 in UK

I certainly adapt my teaching style to the people I'm teaching.
		
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Great. I just wondered because it read that you didn't ever do continued learning because you learned through experience. Clarification is wonderful!


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## ArcticFox (26 April 2016)

gosh this thread seems to have been a bit heated!

Having recently obtained my PTT and now working towards my AI the structure is definitely more centered on coaching rather than instruction.  Whilst it is not riding related I am also a Fellow of the Higher Education Academy and  regardless of whether the training is in a classroom or a riding lesson coaching, giving and obtaining feedback, self reflection and CPD is very much at the forefront of all teaching.

I do think that gaining qualifications are important.  You have put yourself out there to be examined and assessed and to show that you want to continue to develop. Experience is essential as it helps to learn the little quirks in the way you deliver your explanations but for me, if you are experienced, you should be prepared to obtain the qualifications to back up your knowledge.  it shouldn't be very difficult to do this if you have the experience behind you.


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## ester (26 April 2016)

I guess my only additional thought your post has brought up AF is why are there so many people around teaching that are AIs (as in it is there sole occupation) and have been AIs for years and years with seemingly no want for progression. I understand it as what it is a rung on the ladder but there do seem to be a lot which don't and have no intention of going any further either within, or out of the BHS system they just keep plugging away at the same level while also not extending themselves through any extra competition experience (NB this is in MY experience of the AIs I have known and been taught by over the years and while being involved quite heavily in riding club (so I guess somewhat AI territory).


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## Serianas (3 May 2016)

When did it have to be one or the other? you can have experienced in a lot of spheres and BHS/UKCC qualified in the same person, or am I just damned lucky to have the instructor I do?

*ducks head back down below the parapet*


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## JFTDWS (3 May 2016)

Serianas said:



			When did it have to be one or the other? you can have experienced in a lot of spheres and BHS/UKCC qualified in the same person, or am I just damned lucky to have the instructor I do?

*ducks head back down below the parapet*
		
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I don't think anybody on this thread has said that it "has to be one or the other".  HGA/Tnavas say BHSAI is sufficient in itself to be considered a worthy instructor.  I say that the AI alone is insufficient for me to want to train with someone, but wouldn't necessarily put me off if they had further demonstrations of their experience / skill.  Others say varying things in between those view points.


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## rachk89 (3 May 2016)

Oh wow this thread escalated badly.

I honestly don't look at anyone's qualifications anymore but I tend to avoid riding schools now as they don't offer what I need. I need specialist training in dressage or jumping and they sadly rarely have that knowledge because they don't need it.

My latest instructors have had that ukcc coaching qualification but I wouldn't care if they didn't even have that. They can teach me what I need to know that's all I need from them. I want their knowledge not their qualification.

Hell I am even considering asking the 14 year old here for tips on schooling my horse as the teenager knows how to ride him well and keep him working correctly whereas the horse is just walking all over me at times. I don't see the problem as long as we get the help we need and tips can still help.


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