# In defence of Ashdale Cruise Master



## Black Beth (26 April 2011)

I do not profess to be an expert in anyway but after reading some of the comments on the Badminton XC thread felt the need to defend what is in my opinion (and that of many others more knowledgeable than I) a potentially brilliant horse.
Up until the end of 2009 when Oliver Townend took over the ride, Ashdale Cruise Master had been produced by Emily Gilruth. He advanced from Pre Novice to Intermediate in his first season  2006. As to those of you that think he is not a 4* horse, he has already jumped round Burghley twice with Emily. A steady clear at his first attempt in 2008 and then in 2009 unfortunately incurring 20 penalties at the second corner of the dairy mound where he jumped the wrong side of the flag, clearing the massive corner! The pair still finished in 26th place and would probably have had a top ten placing otherwise. His results are there for anyone to see on the British Eventing website. 
Before Oliver took over the ride the horse had never left a leg or looked in danger of falling and had always finished XC with plenty of fuel in the tank.
I am not for a minute questioning Mr Townends ability as a rider. Obviously his results speak for themselves. What I am suggesting is that maybe the lure of the Rolex Grand Slam was a greater draw than the long term education and welfare of the horse. I believe they had already had a fall in an OI at Lincolnshire before going out to Kentucky.
I do not wish to start up another argument about Oliver Townend. I am simply suggesting that we have some brilliant (if less well known) producers of young event horses in this country and as in the case of Emily Gilruth and Ashdale Cruise Master it is a travesty to see them lose rides to the top names, especially when it results in the loss of confidence of such a special horse.


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## Mbronze (26 April 2011)

I don't think its necessary for you to defend ACM, I'm sure anyone can see that he is a great horse. Perhaps it is the change of rider, in my opinion OliT is quite an aggressive rider (which obviously has reaped rewards in the past). 

Maybe ACM just isn't used to having that style of rider, it does sound such a shame for Emily to loose the ride on him if they were doing so well.


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## TableDancer (26 April 2011)

That is a very well made point, BB. I think Oli is a terrific rider but many (most?) riders often struggle taking on a 4* horse from another rider - even the success stories, like Mary and Archie, usually take time to achieve.

You are obviously new to this forum and I'm afraid a feature of it is that bandwagons tend to be jumped on fairly swiftly - the criticism of ACM is a case in point  However, I personally think the early posts on the subject were just people making the point (rightly, in my view) that Oli had given the horse a good ride and, for whatever reason, he wasn't getting the right responses on this occasion. 

Totally agree about the lesser-known producers too and the British set-up can be horrifically prejudiced against them. Another prime example of this is Rebecca Gibbs who produced Coup de Coeur (beautifully and patiently)... who knows what that horse would have achieved if he had remained with her - and I am not in any way decrying his subsequent jockeys, merely questioning the wisdom of moving him.


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## j1ffy (26 April 2011)

I think there was a need to defend him actually   I've heard a number of people say that he's not a 4* horse and shouldn't be run at that level, so it's very interesting to hear his history as I'd not looked up his previous results.  

During the Badminton commentary (as they were approaching the lake) , I think it was Ian Stark who mentioned that Oli T has struggled to build up as a strong relationship with the horse as he has with his other 4* rides so it's presumably a fairly well-recognised issue.  The question is, will Oli & the horse's owners continue as-is or make a change?


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## kerilli (26 April 2011)

hear hear Black Beth, very well said.
TD, i know the story about how RG lost the ride on C de C, a real scandal imho, some very unfair high-up shenanigans if what I was told was true...


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## wizoz (26 April 2011)

I really would love to make a comment but I think i'd get banned!! So I will say this, maybe ACM would do better with a more sympathetic rider???


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## georgiegirl (26 April 2011)

I dont think we'll see ACM with Oli for much longer.....

If it hasnt been a problem for the horse before coing to Oli then it must simply be the change in riding style which doesnt suit him. Not saying for one minute one or the other is wrong (who am I to comment on people of this ability?!) but not every horse suits every rider...


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## qaz (26 April 2011)

Black Beth said:



			Before Oliver took over the ride the horse had never left a leg or looked in danger of falling and had always finished XC with plenty of fuel in the tank.
		
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No doubt that ACM is a terrific horse but I don't think you're completely right with your statement.
In 2008 he was the horse running behind me at Bramham & left both legs behind somehow ending up on his knees rather than flipping and making quite a mess of himself. I just remember Emily retiring and coming into the vet box with the horse covered in blood. I was told that the same had happened in Ede the previous season. 
ACM is fantastic in the dressage and has the odd unlucky pole SJ but when he's tiring XC he forgets to lift his legs. Maybe he needs to be a little fitter or maybe he needs to be ridden a little more sympathetically as he always looks like he can't work things out fast enough when ridden strongly and by the time his legs have caught up with his brain he's already in the *****!
You only have to look at his results over the past couple of seasons to know that he is a seriously good horse - this season he's already won the 3* at Belton, last season he won Burnham Mkt 3*, Tattersalls World Cup Qualifier & was 5th at Luhmulen 4*.


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## MiaBella (26 April 2011)

There is the simple fact that OT is a much bigger and heavier rider than Emily - not every horse is up to carrying a bloke.  Of course there are different riding styles. However one very nasty fall in Kentucky, a lot of mistakes yesterday where the inevitable happened after quite a few misses suggests that ACM is not a 4* horse with his current jockey.  As has been said above, the horse might go better for a more sympathetic, less competitive/driven rider.


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## qaz (26 April 2011)

j1ffy said:



			I think there was a need to defend him actually   I've heard a number of people say that he's not a 4* horse and shouldn't be run at that level, so it's very interesting to hear his history as I'd not looked up his previous results.  

During the Badminton commentary (as they were approaching the lake) , I think it was Ian Stark who mentioned that Oli T has struggled to build up as a strong relationship with the horse as he has with his other 4* rides so it's presumably a fairly well-recognised issue.  The question is, will Oli & the horse's owners continue as-is or make a change?[/QUOTE

I agree Jiffy that there is a need to defend ACM but if OT is struggling to build up a strong relationship with him then why not stick to 3* until the relationship is more secure. It's hardly going to build a confident horse & rider bond when both end up on the floor so often.
		
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## YorkshireLady (26 April 2011)

Issue with sticking to 3* may not be just OT's decision - 4star horse, paid 4 star prices etc - expected to run. Horse is capable - look how it came through sunken road on OT's line for him?

However I think they do not look comfy together it was not a round that was easy to watch or made you feel secure. I think perhaps we may see the horse go elsewhere. Will be interested to see how the other horses go this year for him at 4 * too which will probably impact on anything that happens.

Maybe that is why MT managed to buy his winner? that he did not get on with OT! Who knows....


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## kit279 (26 April 2011)

I thought Oli gave the horse a good ride but for whatever reason the horse hasn't looked quite as impressive as we might expect under his new jockey.  With hindsight, taking a horse to kentucky without having a season together first might have been too much too soon as I don't think the horse has looked as confident since.  It must be hard for all concerned to have all that expectation on this horse.  I really feel for Emily Gilruth. It must be horrible to watch a horse you know very well and presumably really care about falling at badminton with a different jockey.


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## Black Beth (26 April 2011)

QUOTE=qaz;9604683]No doubt that ACM is a terrific horse but I don't think you're completely right with your statement.
In 2008 he was the horse running behind me at Bramham & left both legs behind somehow ending up on his knees rather than flipping and making quite a mess of himself. I just remember Emily retiring and coming into the vet box with the horse covered in blood. I was told that the same had happened in Ede the previous season.


Yes, you are correct qaz that he did fall in the water at Bramham and graze his knees but it was most definately not caused by leaving his legs. He infact overjumped into the water causing him to trip on landing and he was eliminated at Ede as Emily jumped fence 5 before jumping fence 4, largely due the horses exhuberance and steering problems.


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## kerilli (26 April 2011)

i would love to see the horse taken round a 4* slightly more slowly, less competitively, possibly by a different jockey since i don't think 'only here for the beer' is quite Mr OT's style!  
the horse's jumping doesn't worry me the way that dangly one of Ruth's did, he dangled with no excuses imho (e.g. when turning them over at the Badders water), whereas in Kentucky OT admitted he 'didn't get a good shot to the fence', and at Badminton the horse was looking very tired.
Must admit that horses who keep their super style even when tired are the ones I'd far rather see (and ride)... remember the one Zara nursed home a few years ago (was it Glenbuck?) obv tired but still making a super shape at the fences.


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## Cyrus (26 April 2011)

Oliver does think a lot of ACM and I am a fan of Olivers but I do agree with others I do feel AMC needs a more sympathetic rider and maybe could have been fitter for the competition but who am I to question that
Land Vision was produced by Oliver but not sold due to not getting on with the rider sadly he needed the money at the time.


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## qaz (26 April 2011)

Black Beth said:



			QUOTE=qaz;9604683]Yes, you are correct qaz that he did fall in the water at Bramham and graze his knees but it was most definately not caused by leaving his legs. He infact overjumped into the water causing him to trip on landing and he was eliminated at Ede as Emily jumped fence 5 before jumping fence 4, largely due the horses exhuberance and steering problems.

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No offence intended, I was obviously riding and didn't see the incident - simply going on what I was told by several eye witnesses and the fact that his owners who were in the vet box although understandably concerned were livid as it had happened before.

I obviously understand about the ACM being a 4* horse at 4* money & it may not be OT choice to run him at 4* but surely a successful 3* horse with a clean record is more valued than a struggling 4* horse that for whatever reason being rider or horse error is fast getting a reputation for tipping up?


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## Countrychic (26 April 2011)

I'm another that would probably be banned if I said what I thought. I don't know anything about this particular horse but know two others very well and both had not benefited at all from his particular brand of riding.


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## harrietadams (26 April 2011)

Couldn't agree more BB - point very well made!!  Emily had a fabulous relationship with the horse (results weren't bad either!!) and would have been upset to have had Splash (ACM) taken away from her - after producing him to be her first 4* horse. To me - he always looked a more classy horse with Emily riding than he has since Oli took over. Must be said also, i thought that Splash was looking a rather too lean (even for a four star horse - compare with Jakata for example) at Badminton and without wishing to be rude - oli would not be the lightest or light seated rider. Hope we see some drastic improvements in the horse - he deserves it - the raw talent is there - it has been proved already at his two burghley runs with EG


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## wizoz (26 April 2011)

Ok, I can bite my tongue no longer, 

My view is and always has been that OT is an aggressive, hard rider. He uses his strength, flappy arms and legs to get over the fences. You NEVER see WFP ride like that, he is a quiet rider, sits beautifully, is in balance and in tune with his horses and gives himself time to get to know them and I prefer to see horses ridden this way. I cannot watch OT ride xc because I feel he rides the horses with far too much pressure, right back to when I first saw him on Topping, it was his shear determination and grit that got that horse around Badminton and Burghley. 

It broke my heart when I saw ACM's fall at Kentucky because the poor boy whinnied as he fell, you could tell that he was scared/shocked and then watching the footage of his fall at Badminton, once he got on his feet and stood still, his muscles were quivering and he looked really tired  I know he was close to the end of the course but he did not look a happy horse, imho.

And before anyone berates me for OT bashing, i'm not, I'm simply stating that I do not prefer his style of riding and I don't think ACM does either


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## henryhorn (26 April 2011)

I hope they back off such big comps for a while and allow the horse to regain his. Joi de vive. This bloodline are funny devils, they are usually strong minded keen jumpers, so something is badly wrong if he is trailing his legs, it's a clear signal he isn't totally happy, either with the way he's ridden (and I believe OT is an exceptionally good rider but perhaps his macho style doesn't get the best ex this horse)
The other thing which is probably just a guess, have they had this horses eyesight checked thoroughly? The only time I have seen a previously bold horse fall several times is when it started with cataracts unknown to it's owners.


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## marble (26 April 2011)

wizoz said:



			Ok, I can bite my tongue no longer, 

My view is and always has been that OT is an aggressive, hard rider. He uses his strength, flappy arms and legs to get over the fences. You NEVER see WFP ride like that, he is a quiet rider, sits beautifully, is in balance and in tune with his horses and gives himself time to get to know them and I prefer to see horses ridden this way. I cannot watch OT ride xc because I feel he rides the horses with far too much pressure, right back to when I first saw him on Topping, it was his shear determination and grit that got that horse around Badminton and Burghley. 

It broke my heart when I saw ACM's fall at Kentucky because the poor boy whinnied as he fell, you could tell that he was scared/shocked and then watching the footage of his fall at Badminton, once he got on his feet and stood still, his muscles were quivering and he looked really tired  I know he was close to the end of the course but he did not look a happy horse, imho.

And before anyone berates me for OT bashing, i'm not, I'm simply stating that I do not prefer his style of riding and I don't think ACM does either 

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well done, already said on another thread about how ACM looked after fall, agree with every word from original poster, I do hope that ACM goes back to Hardings and then to Emily, I am sure her heart must be almost torn out, she loved that horse and he loved her. 
Its  amazing how much more a horse will do for someone they trust and love....do you think Lenamore would still be the horse he is without trusting and loving Caroline, or Over To You, get my drift.


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## Black Beth (26 April 2011)

Talking of Joi de Vive Henryhorn.


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## marble (26 April 2011)

what wonderful photos, and particularly over log pile, no dangly legs there, thats for sure.   Still have fingers crossed that maybe just maybe Emily will get him back.


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## MrsMozart (26 April 2011)

Lovely pictures . Good to see a pair so happy and comfortable.


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## henryhorn (26 April 2011)

That's more like the Knock Boy bloodline horses I know, they are uber careful with their front legs as a rule, which is why something is clearly wrong. People talk about Cruising but the jumping talent goes far further back than him.
I don't even think it's Oli's fault, for a horse who usually jumps like that tucked up and very careful, there has to be a reason other than the rider..
We owned the first stallion into this country from that line some twentyfive years ago and have bred dozens since, and not one has dangling front legs...
Yes, they can be strong XC, yes they don't suffer fools gladly but they damn well jump!!!
Lovely to see the horse going as I was sure he could, now no doubt his connections will be searching why he can't any more...
I do hope they find the reason.


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## kerilli (26 April 2011)

wizoz, i agree.
Toddy, WFP, even AN (who is obv very determined and competitive but not in the same way as OT imho) and a host of other top riders GUIDE their horses. They're ready with really effective legs when necessary, they aren't weak in the slightest, but they do not DRIVE their horses over every fence. I don't like to see horses ridden this way, and imho most horses do not respond brilliantly to it. The sensitive ones will have doubts, will even get more worried because they feel the pressure. A well-trained, happy, enthusiastic xc horse takes the rider to the fence, accepts input but thinks for himself (that almost unbelievable balance)... truly great horses like Spring Along, Imperial Cavalier, Lenamore, loads and loads of others do this repeatedly at 4* level and obviously relish every second of it.
I, too, hope the horse goes back to Emily.


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## fiarmay (26 April 2011)

they looked super at belton quick and careful. who knows why these horses hit the wall sometimes but a lot did at the quarry this year.


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## mini-eventer (26 April 2011)

I agree with you wizoz and kerilli,

I was at Badminton and at before the fall I thought the horse looked extremely tired.

In my humble opinion (and I am in no way an expert) ACM should have been nursed home the way Toddy nursed and guided his horse home. I thought OT was pushing too much for the time and I know which looked like better horsemanship to me..


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## angelish (26 April 2011)

lovely photo's 

i am far ,far from qualified to comment  but i can recognise a struggling, tiered horse when i see one and ACM was lucky to stay on his feet a few times, long before he eventually did fall.

i really felt OT was pushing his luck and should have thought about pulling the horse up as there was something clearly not right and i wasn't the slightest bit suprised when he did fall 
i hope the horse has recovered from his fall 

fell very sorry for emily she must be absoloutly gutted to watch her baby struggle


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## amage (26 April 2011)

The horse doesn't need defending...his owners, rider and connections are the ones banging his head off the proverbial brick wall trying to get a result at 4* when he is so obviously unhappy at that level now. If he wasn't the subject of the thread I would not believe that the pics above are ACM. It's sad


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## Weezy (26 April 2011)

I commented on the Badders thread regarding ACM.  As is now, I stand by my words that I think there is a serious, if not fatal, accident waiting to happen at 4*.  Emily produced the horse amazingly well and I cannot think there would be anyone in the world who could criticise her and the job she did!  As for OT's riding at Badders, I actually thought his riding style was improved for the first half of the course.  

My problem with ACM's current way of going is that he does not appear to learn by his mistakes - some horses get touchy feely when they are losing confidence and I wonder whether this was the case with ACM...the further he went the more he started to doubt himself.  Had he left the nearside fore every time then I would be thinking it was a mechanical problem, but it was the offside fore that was left and caused the fall at the quarry....it was the near side at Kentucky.

Whatever the reasons, whether horse or rider error, I do hope the issue is resolved, as no one wants to see a 4* horse leaving a leg and having falls on a yearly basis.

Here is a vid I found on YouTube of OT's highlights and the fall - I really cannot see much to crit - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aK7IqtTJJAs


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## kerilli (26 April 2011)

Every time he leaves a knee, he leaves the one of the leading leg, the one that's closest to the fence. So, not mechanical, just the mark of a tiring horse in which, in his case, his front leg style is the first thing to go. Not good at all.


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## Luci07 (26 April 2011)

Just to add something else into this fray. I saw, for myself, that horse after it had galloped up the long straight towards the quarry and it was on its knees at that point. Clearly struggling and not forward. I didn't see the jump but at that point, didn't think that horse would finish. Sometimes horses just won't partner so well - Ginny Leng swapped horses with Ian Stark (Murphy himself) as he was just too strong for her. No question that she was a superb rider who produced her riders well but that combination was not going to work.  As for Becca Gibbs and Coup de Coeur - I would be interested to know the background of that. She is a local rider to me and at one point, was riding some horses (babies) for my old YO. She was really lovely and I really felt for her when she lost Coup, particularly as her previous 4* horse Rosie always seemed to go wrong just before events.


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## Weezy (26 April 2011)

kerilli said:



			Every time he leaves a knee, he leaves the one of the leading leg, the one that's closest to the fence. So, not mechanical, just the mark of a tiring horse in which, in his case, his front leg style is the first thing to go. Not good at all.
		
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Hadn't thought to look at that, thanks K


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## MrsMozart (26 April 2011)

I don't know the horse well enough to know if it's normal, but in the video clip, ACM carries his tail noticeably to the right. It might be the norm for him, or it might be a sign of something wrong pelvis/hips/back.


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## racingdemon (26 April 2011)

I mentioned on the earlier thread that i didn't think ACM was a 4* horse.... he may have been a couple of years ago, but, what ever the reason now, I personally didn't think he looked good at this level, there were quite a few horses having their 4* debut over the weekend, & TBH, the ones i was paying attention to, looked smooth & consistent in their stride, which (i would imagine, having never done it) is a bit of an unknown until you actually get there. 

Also... ACM, looked very tired, now i know nothing of OT, & don't really follow his horses, but on the basis the horse has done a number of 4*, without lengthy periods out of work, & OT is experienced at this level, i'm wondering if something underlying isn't 100% & may be impacting fitness levels, recovery times etc, etc, as well as balance & co-ordination going XC

on an entirely unrelated note, I had a P2Per a number of years ago, that started hitting fences 2.5ish miles into a race, (as in totally failing to take off) couldn't get to the bottom of it, decided it was my riding, poor horse then dropped dead underneath me & the PM concluded that he had a defect with his heart, hence he was basically hitting a wall at 2.5ish miles, one assumes ACM will be galloped at some point in a HR monitor, but... ?? 

anyway, having never evented at that level, who am I to comment!!


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## SusieT (26 April 2011)

IMO a rider technique does not start to make a horse go careless with his legs the way this horse was. He had ample oppurtunity to actually lift his knees like any other horse. 
Maybe he wasn't pushed with emily? Maybe as he got older his tecnique has gone down the pan? Still.. Horse that leave's a leg regularly, in taht fashion is not worth eventing imo.


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## SusieT (26 April 2011)

Many many other horses were tired at quarry, eg. Mark Todds, which looked much  more tired and was imo ridde not nearly as sympathetically. They managed to jump the simple log on the flat (admittedly some didn't manage the one at the bottom of the hill!)


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## SusieT (26 April 2011)

A 4 * horse that needs ridden round 'here for a beer' as earlier stated isn't worth being a 4* horse..  I actually thought Olid rode him beautifully and did not deserve that at all.


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## ElleJS (26 April 2011)

I remember watching ACM at Burghley and Bramham and thinking wow what a jumper, gave everything feet to spare! Emily did a fab job with him but I don't think he suits Oli's style of riding (not saying that it is bad as he is blinking good jockey at what he does) I would love to see him back with Emily going a little steadier around a course and I bet he would be back to his normal self. I don't think he likes being pushed out his comfort zone and perhaps he is a 4* horse but one that is destined to come back with a handful of timefaults ableit clear and safe- Like he did with Emily before. 

But then perhaps now it is too late and he has lost his technique and confidence now.


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## SusieT (26 April 2011)

Black Beth- what is your connection with the horse? You evidently have one? I will happily state I have no connection with Oli/horse but creit where credit is due, he has been riding very well imo in the last few years and has really adapted his previous driving style to a more firm and persistant style and don't see why any horse wouldn't gain confidence from it. A lot of people seem to think he should not be being competitive when he is riding, I'm sorry but its 4* i.e competitive rather than ridingn club pat the pony riding!


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## wizoz (26 April 2011)

SusieT said:



			IMO a rider technique does not start to make a horse go careless with his legs the way this horse was. He had ample oppurtunity to actually lift his knees like any other horse.
		
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I disagree, if you push push push all the way, the horse is bound to tire sooner rather than later, it is my belief that the horse was tired by the time he got to the lake and that's when he started making mistakes. I also believe that OT is arrogant enough to carry on going to the finish line because it is more important to finish, than pull up.


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## WoopsiiD (26 April 2011)

A picture paints a thousand words.....






We were concerned about ACM after the fall as he did look very sore and tired. OT undid the girth and then walked off. We watched ACM all the way back and OT didn't even look back at the horse.
There really is no bond there and no bond in my opinion means that you don't have the crucial partnership needed to do 4*


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## wizoz (26 April 2011)




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## WoopsiiD (26 April 2011)

wizoz said:



			I really would love to make a comment but I think i'd get banned!! So I will say this, maybe ACM would do better with a more sympathetic rider???
		
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LIKE LIKE LIKE

Someone with more patience and understanding, maybe let RG have him back and make him into the 4* he is more than capable of being.


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## MegaBeast (26 April 2011)

I would disagree WoopsiiD, at the moment of immense disappointment whether it's your fault, the horses fault or just simple rotten luck I can totally empathise with the not wanting to look at your horse feeling.  Been there, done that got the t-shirt.  And no one could have a stronger bond than I do with my mare but it is possible, when something is really important to you, that you feel so emotionally let down, upset, devastated etc that you just don't want to see your best friend.  Especially in this case where he would know the horse is in the best of hands and he probably feels both gutted and humiliated.  fwiw he wasn't the only rider who walked off in the opposite direction to their horse (and I'm not referring to K O'C).

ETA I was referring to the comments accompanying the above picture not the most recent cross post


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## WoopsiiD (26 April 2011)

Feel free to disagree, thats the joy of us all being different! 
The world would be a boring place if we all just nodded along.
I however could never walk away from my horse if he had gone down with such a bang and was on three legs no matter how devastated I was.


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## SusieT (26 April 2011)

'I also believe that OT is arrogant enough to carry on going to the finish line because it is more important to finish, than pull up. '
How do you compare Mark todd to that? Or any of the other v. tired horses that finished badders this year?
As for the pic of him walkiiing away-An oft quoted horse scenario is 'walk away rather than reach for the stick'? The horse doesn't care who walks him back.. A bond is all very well but as I said-we're not at riding club pat the pony level.. When you are gutted and a lot of money has just gone out the window and (imo) your horse has let you down I bet you don't care if people think you are nice to your pony.
ETS-he wasn't on three legs that I could see.. Stiff/tired yes.


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## MegaBeast (26 April 2011)

WoopsiiD said:



			Feel free to disagree, thats the joy of us all being different! 
The world would be a boring place if we all just nodded along.
I however could never walk away from my horse if he had gone down with such a bang and was on three legs no matter how devastated I was.
		
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Agreed, but he had seen the horse have the rein freed from his near fore and a whole group of people rush to his aid before OT himself loosened the girth and saw him walk off, albeit stiffly (I wouldn't say he was on three legs to any extent) before he walked off himself.  As he's got a whole support team there to take care of things I can sympathise with his apparent attitude and need to have time to reflect!  And I'm normally soft and neurotic as anything!


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## kerilli (26 April 2011)

oops, edited
we've all seen a top rider whose first reaction after a heartbreaking unseating at Badminton was to hug his horse... it's not just pathetic little amateur girlies who really care for their horses, after all...  
as for the "riding club pat the pony riding" SusieT, i very firmly believe you CANNOT always try to win if you are training a horse safely up the levels. some of the very top riders manage to do this just fine. they do not always go 'foot to the floor'. they may go deceptively quickly (AN is the master of this), and take tight lines etc, but they do not look as if they are trying to rush the horse along.


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## oldvic (26 April 2011)

wizoz said:



			Ok,  I cannot watch OT ride xc because I feel he rides the horses with far too much pressure, right back to when I first saw him on Topping, it was his shear determination and grit that got that horse around Badminton and Burghley.  

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The reason he was sent Topping was that he was consistently stopping with his previous rider
and he needed some strength, grit and determination to get him going. He was pretty successful on him.
Emily did produce ACM very well but there comes a stage where they have to step up from being nannied round to going up a gear and becoming truly competitive - they are, after all, COMPETITION horses. If you leave it too long then they can't cope when taken to the edge of their comfort zone as they need to quicken their reactions and aren't used to it. This horse has a very long stride and finds it hard to stay adjustable after a certain time and this was a major factor in his fall in Kentucky - he didn't have a great distance because he couldn't shorten - and if they can't adjust and bring their weight back more onto their hind legs then they will be more inclined to leave a leg. I agree that here he fell because he was very tired but this sort of course would be more tiring for this sort of horse than a bouncy horse like Lenamore who is always "on his feet". For a top rider a horse needs to be able to be ridden competitively - it is the point of their job and trying to win is what they are there for.

Oli was very successful on Land Vision (not out of the 1st 3) in the year he rode him including winning the intermediate championship.


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## MillionDollar (26 April 2011)

YorkshireLady said:



			Issue with sticking to 3* may not be just OT's decision - 4star horse, paid 4 star prices etc - expected to run. Horse is capable - look how it came through sunken road on OT's line for him?

However I think they do not look comfy together it was not a round that was easy to watch or made you feel secure. I think perhaps we may see the horse go elsewhere. Will be interested to see how the other horses go this year for him at 4 * too which will probably impact on anything that happens.

Maybe that is why MT managed to buy his winner? that he did not get on with OT! Who knows....
		
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No, I know for a fact OT bought LV for £35k, and in just one season got him winning Intermediates so MT offered £250k for him...........OT could not refuse that offer and used money to buy his yard!


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## SusieT (26 April 2011)

so you reckon the horse looked rushed at the fence he fell/elsewhere on the course? as I have it recorded and watched it again and looks the same as any other top combination-until the lake actually looked v. classy horse and rider.


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## kirstyhen (26 April 2011)

MegaBeast said:



			I would disagree WoopsiiD, at the moment of immense disappointment whether it's your fault, the horses fault or just simple rotten luck I can totally empathise with the not wanting to look at your horse feeling.  Been there, done that got the t-shirt.  And no one could have a stronger bond than I do with my mare but it is possible, when something is really important to you, that you feel so emotionally let down, upset, devastated etc that you just don't want to see your best friend.  Especially in this case where he would know the horse is in the best of hands and he probably feels both gutted and humiliated.  fwiw he wasn't the only rider who walked off in the opposite direction to their horse (and I'm not referring to K O'C).

ETA I was referring to the comments accompanying the above picture not the most recent cross post
		
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I agree. I worship my old lad, he is my best mate and he has got me through some rough times when I have sat in his stable sobbing. However, he started stopping one day, at fences he had flow the week before. I was frustrated beyond belief and got off, handed him to my Dad and walked away, because I knew I was loosing my temper and didn't want to be anywhere near him if I did. Not because I blamed him, but because I didn't want to get cross with him when there was obviously something not right.
I would hate to think someone watching thought i had no care or bond with that horse, he was/is my world, and it was for that reason I had to walk away.

As for OT and ACM, I don't have enough knowledge to comment, but I feel sorry for OT. He gets a hell of a rough ride from pretty much everyone on here, when I think his riding has changed immensely in the last few years and through that sunken road complex, thought he looked brilliant.


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## YorkshireLady (26 April 2011)

No big fan of OT at all....but as I said before he was going well - and had shown some difference of approach ie at sunken rd etc when they looked much more together than they have

Not my favourite style of jockey at all. However I do not think this is a competitve v RC thing at all. Forgetting about whether you like OT or not....just looking at it objectively....do we think they suit each other...and do we think ACM has now going to have lost it as far as 4 star...

not sure another top rider would take him? Up and coming might...


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## MegaBeast (26 April 2011)

kerilli said:



			oops, edited
we've all seen a top rider whose first reaction after a heartbreaking unseating at Badminton was to hug his horse... it's not just pathetic little amateur girlies who really care for their horses, after all...  .
		
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I know exactly who you mean!  Was totally heart breaking to watch.  Although would say this particular fall probably had more implications than FW's given the partnerships history.

Just been talking about OT with my Mum and we both agreed that he was probably very shaken - don't forget he was lucky not to be killed by this horse a year ago and quite possibly wanted time alone to think about what he was going to say to the owners and not necessarily see them immediately.  And he also probably wanted to get away from the crowds who'd no doubt give him some stick seeing as rightly or wrongly he seems not to be the most popular of riders and was deposited right at their feet!  He knew the horse had the back up team with it and whether upset or flaming angry the best thing to do would be to have five minutes alone to reflect before possibly facing a difficult conversation with the owners.

All pure supposition I know but just to say there can be two sides to a story and none of us know his motivation in that situation but wouldn't personally think the worst of him because of it.


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## Foxy53 (26 April 2011)

TBH I've never actually watched OT ride but on watching the YT vid he does appear [to my unprofessional] eyes to ride very forward and, dare I say it, heavy. His wrist/elbow is very rigid and does not 'allow' over fences, and he doesn't appear to have the eventers' 'behind the movement' style, which may have saved the day at the quarry log.


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## WoopsiiD (26 April 2011)

YorkshireLady said:



			No big fan of OT at all....but as I said before he was going well - and had shown some difference of approach ie at sunken rd etc when they looked much more together than they have

Not my favourite style of jockey at all. However I do not think this is a competitve v RC thing at all. Forgetting about whether you like OT or not....just looking at it objectively....do we think they suit each other...and do we think ACM has now going to have lost it as far as 4 star...

not sure another top rider would take him? Up and coming might...
		
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Do they suit?
No, clash of personalities.
Is ACM a 4* horse?
IMO not this year or maybe next....take him back and get his confidence back.

Another question...Do we think that the nasty fall they had at Kentucky is still playing on OT and ACM's minds?
A spill like that has got to leave some 'mental mark'.


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## Vizslak (26 April 2011)

I still stand by the fact that ACM is no 4* horse..at least not a competitive one, and that is what is needed of him. He's a lovely horse and I'm sure capable of plenty more wins but not at this level, for whatever reason. Oli gets to much flack on here, he's a classy rider and I thought his riding was some of the best I have seen from him on ACM at badminton this year. He thinks a lot of Splash as well, he's always the first to defend him and has had some nice success with him, I think he's given the horse enough chances now and would hope the horse is given a step back now (I would hate to see him with another rider at a 4* next year, I don't think I could watch!) would be nice to eat my words and watch him winning/up there with someone else but I can't see that happening personally. What do I know though. Beggar all really, so feel free to ignore me!
Regarding the walking away from him, I can perfectly see this from the other side, infact I can see that the more you adored the horse the more you would need to walk away because aside from the humiliation/disappointment...whatever, very clearly in Oli's mind must have been 'what am I going to do with you now' because obviously decisions need to be made over the future of the partnership. The more you liked the horse and the more work you had put into bonding and forming a partnership (which Oli really has this year with Splash) the more upsetting this would be. I would have needed to walk away too after initially making sure the horse wasn't seriously injured.


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## LBertie Wooster (26 April 2011)

kirstyhen said:



			I agree. I worship my old lad, he is my best mate and he has got me through some rough times when I have sat in his stable sobbing. However, he started stopping one day, at fences he had flow the week before. I was frustrated beyond belief and got off, handed him to my Dad and walked away, because I knew I was loosing my temper and didn't want to be anywhere near him if I did. Not because I blamed him, but because I didn't want to get cross with him when there was obviously something not right.
I would hate to think someone watching thought i had no care or bond with that horse, he was/is my world, and it was for that reason I had to walk away.

As for OT and ACM, I don't have enough knowledge to comment, but I feel sorry for OT. He gets a hell of a rough ride from pretty much everyone on here, when I think his riding has changed immensely in the last few years and through that sunken road complex, thought he looked brilliant.
		
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I completly agree with this. I have had several HFs with my lad and each time I've got up, checked him, then turned my back as I dint want to see his face and wanted to reply what happened in my head...
Olis riding has changed loads in the past years and I though he was giving ACM a superb ride until he fell. I though the sunken road was ridden very nicely and he obvs has a lot of trust and confidence in the horse to take the C element as if it was a corner, and to me it looked as smooth as any of the others... I thought it was a brill round unitll the quarry.


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## Vizslak (26 April 2011)

WoopsiiD said:



			A spill like that has got to leave some 'mental mark'.
		
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It must do however brave you or the horse are.


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## kerilli (26 April 2011)

you didn't gasp at the way he jumped into the Lake?
sorry, the whole way round I was expecting it. same with Ingrid's round. honestly.    
sometimes you can just see it coming.


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## WoopsiiD (26 April 2011)

Vizslak said:



			It must do however brave you or the horse are.
		
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Thats what I thought.
Even if I did 4* 7 days a week a spill like that and a journey in the air ambulance would always be at the back of mind.


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## Vizslak (26 April 2011)

I gasped at the lake and thought 'oh no he's got dangly legs again' and yes from that point whilst thinking Oli was riding him well I could see a fall coming


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## falaise (26 April 2011)

Oliver Townend gets far too much grief on here!! He worked hard for everything hes got, and whether hes an 'aggresive' rider or not, hes had some superb successes with a variety of horses. 

I also understand him walking away from the horse. His immediate reaction after the fall was to look at/turn to the horse. The horse got up, OLLIE loosened the girths whilst the horses leg was untangled and he walked the horse forward. YES the horse was stiff, but what difference would Ollie leading the horse rather than a member of his team make??!! And imho Ollie looked uttely dejected - I think its not just the people on here that know something needs to be done about this combination, but also Ollie himself knows it. Hes worked bloody hard to try and make it work, I think he rode the horse well til he started tiring, but at the end of the day, something isn't working and he will probably lose the ride, and knowing this probably made him very sad  

PS. BB That is a beautiful collage of pictures you have of the horse. I think he is stunning


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## Honey08 (26 April 2011)

I think that OT is getting a hard time on here, when he rode really well until the quarry, IMO.  He has always been a strong, determined, forward rider, which may not have quite suited the horse, but he stayed balanced and helped the horse at the lake when others would have fallen off.

I've also had a lesson with him, and he was very horse-sympathetic.

Years ago I groomed for a pro male eventer, who was very competitive and in the zone at competitions, and who would have walked away in a similar fashion until he had calmed down.  Just because he didn't hug the horse doesn't make him evil - he didn't exactly leave the horse on its own.

I also think that we won't see him on this horse again - and that he had perhaps had his mind made up at the quarry - and that he had mentally distanced himself from the horse.  I would think after nearly killing himself last year with that horse, perhaps it had just used up it's "one more chance" - á la WFP - if it leaves a leg again its off the yard...  To a professional, competitive rider its not hard to switch off a horse without regret.  Its a job not a hobby (not saying its right).  I've also worked for another ex badminton rider who mostly trains nowadays, and every working pupil that went to her yard was very matter of factly told to get rid of their (much loved) horse that they brought with them if they wanted to make it.  Its another kettle of fish for a pro.  Not saying all are like this, but many are.  

It will be interesting to hear what OT statements or HH columns say on this topic.


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## soupdragon71 (26 April 2011)

WoopsiiD said:



			A picture paints a thousand words.....






We were concerned about ACM after the fall as he did look very sore and tired. OT undid the girth and then walked off. We watched ACM all the way back and OT didn't even look back at the horse.
There really is no bond there and no bond in my opinion means that you don't have the crucial partnership needed to do 4*
		
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Wasn't going to comment on this post but this photo reminds me of Burgie a few years ago - Oli didn't have a good weekend and had a few falls. I saw him come down the hill a bit too quick and horse tipped up over the upright palisade and he didn't stand a chance to stay on. A woman in the crowds caught his horse, he grabbed reins off her (didn't say thank you) and threw himself back on it's back to give it a slap and a dig in the ribs, then retire and stomped back to the stables. He decided to go hime before showjumping day - obviously not worth waiting for, and made himself look like a spoilt brat. I didn't really have an opinion of him then, but I certainly do now!

Totally agreee that there has to be a bound with your horse - they have to want to do it not just for themself but  for their team mate!

I really hope that the owners get to the bottom of what is going on with ACM - he was a seriously good horse and now is looking a bit tired and lacklustre about the whole thing. Was really surprised to hear Ian Stark talk about how he can be a bit dangly with his front legs. 

The contrast between him and Land Vision was very apparent - both tired but LV really picked up and finished well (and SJ'd well the next day). Maybe his heart just isn't in it anymore?


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## dominobrown (26 April 2011)

MrsMozart said:



			I don't know the horse well enough to know if it's normal, but in the video clip, ACM carries his tail noticeably to the right. It might be the norm for him, or it might be a sign of something wrong pelvis/hips/back.
		
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I think you are onto something there. I don't think the horse looks happy. When jumping he sometimes looks to be 'climbing' or under jumping. Its like he is saving himself. When horses have done that previously it has been to leg problems and the horse is trying to 'save' itself strain. I think there could be a leg or back problem somewhere there...
Has the horse had any soundness issues in the past?


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## SusieT (26 April 2011)

Yes I gasped at the lake-and I hadn't expected the horse to leave its legs the way it was presented/previously jumping. V surprised and impressed horse and rider stayed upright! 
Whoever said about oli going home pre-sj-I assume all his horses were elim etc. or he was injured? Given you said he had a few falls?


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## henryhorn (26 April 2011)

I see the bunny huggers have crept into here too (sorry but really, slating the man for allowing someone else to lead his horse back? !! )
If you had just suffered a crunching fall off a horse that damn near killed you last year  I would imagine you would want a some time to calm down and breathe..
Once that horse got back to the stables you can be certain the rider would have been around to check him over and advise what treatment to give him. 
No-one knows what was going through the rider's mind at the time, for all we know he could have been devastated thinking it was possibly the final straw. 
Yes he is a very strong rider but he's also a damn good one, and he helped that horse at every jump, he's also a brave one after that dreadful fall last year. Some riders would have declined to compete it again.
Reading everyone else's views I think this horse really isn't happy at this level for some reason, rider/pain/lost his confidence whatever, and needs to step down and enjoy life again. If after some HC comps he regains his lovely jump and zest then it's obvious he needs to drop back and perhaps be a schoolmaster at a low level or do dressage/SJ  instead.  After all , I'm sure his owners desperately want him to be happy.


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## SusieT (26 April 2011)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aK7IqtTJJAs
Here is a vid of his round. Lets see, flower pots, a little over controlled is only real thing you could say. Sunken road-sesnibly opts for the easier route and v. clever corner jumping - suggests to me Oli not confident in the horse jumping cleanly through.
Lake approach-Just watch as he gallops up, oli just letting the horse go at his own pace. Last stride horse should just have popped into the lake but instead just plopped. He does look a bit dull-perhaps a veterinary issue there I suppose, still no excuse for leaving a leg!
Through the gate/double brush complex, again, I don't see this pushy aggressive rider some of you are seeing?
Or how are you all seeing this round?


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## thumperbos (26 April 2011)

I thought his riding of the xc was really good, I too gasped when he left a leg going into the lake and there was no rhyme or reason as to why he left a leg at the quarry (when tired horses picked their feet up).
But I think in this instance that a great deal if respect and sympathy is due to Oli Townend for putting his faith in this horse after a very nearly serious accident at Kentucky. Trust me when I say that it takes a lot to climb onboard a ride at 4* after a cracking fall like that, especially when everyone is telling u to watch it. And in this Olympic qualifying year, I can only imagine his disappointment after putting his trust in this horse.
I wouldn't want to comment much on ACM except to say that often after a horse takes a heavy fall like in Kentucky they very often try to protect themselves in the future by 'paddling', not in every case but very often as a protective measure.


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## soupdragon71 (26 April 2011)

SusieT said:



			Yes I gasped at the lake-and I hadn't expected the horse to leave its legs the way it was presented/previously jumping. V surprised and impressed horse and rider stayed upright! 
Whoever said about oli going home pre-sj-I assume all his horses were elim etc. or he was injured? Given you said he had a few falls?
		
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No, he had a lorry load there, and was quite well up with a few in the lower classes so was expected to be there showjumping (falls were all with his more advanced horses). It was also the same year that his then girlfriend, Piggy French, got a bit of a telling off for carrying on with a very tired horse - Chicago. Despite Burgie making sure that all competitors knew that they needed a very fit horse to get round they didn't have their horses prepared. They were not the only southern based riders caught out, it has to be said.


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## SusieT (26 April 2011)

And how sure are you he wasn't injured? All it takes is eg. a groin strain from having a 'few falls' to make a rider unable to ride the next day. It is wasy to judge withuot facts. Just seeing it from both sides.


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## BEUnderTheInfluence (26 April 2011)

I watched with huge admiration ACM being ridden beautifully by Emily at Blenheim in 06 and thought jeesh what a horse. I was absolutley devastated when he was taken over by Oliver, then duely crashed in his attempt at the grand slam. Crashed again at Badminton. God, I feel for Emily having to look on at the horse she made being wasted by a rider that a) doesn't really need the ride and b) doesn't really seem to be gelling with it, just reaping rewards or ploughing it into the ground. Christ I bet she can't sleep at night, how horrid.


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## Vizslak (26 April 2011)

henryhorn said:



			I see the bunny huggers have crept into here too (sorry but really, slating the man for allowing someone else to lead his horse back? !! )
If you had just suffered a crunching fall off a horse that damn near killed you last year  I would imagine you would want a some time to calm down and breathe..
Once that horse got back to the stables you can be certain the rider would have been around to check him over and advise what treatment to give him. 
No-one knows what was going through the rider's mind at the time, for all we know he could have been devastated thinking it was possibly the final straw. 
Yes he is a very strong rider but he's also a damn good one, and he helped that horse at every jump, he's also a brave one after that dreadful fall last year. Some riders would have declined to compete it again.
Reading everyone else's views I think this horse really isn't happy at this level for some reason, rider/pain/lost his confidence whatever, and needs to step down and enjoy life again. If after some HC comps he regains his lovely jump and zest then it's obvious he needs to drop back and perhaps be a schoolmaster at a low level or do dressage/SJ  instead.  After all , I'm sure his owners desperately want him to be happy.
		
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well said, better than I put it!


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## Woodykat (26 April 2011)

BEUnderTheInfluence said:



			I watched with huge admiration ACM being ridden beautifully by Emily at Blenheim in 06 and thought jeesh what a horse. I was absolutley devastated when he was taken over by Oliver, then duely crashed in his attempt at the grand slam. Crashed again at Badminton. God, I feel for Emily having to look on at the horse she made being wasted by a rider that a) doesn't really need the ride and b) doesn't really seem to be gelling with it, just reaping rewards or ploughing it into the ground. Christ I bet she can't sleep at night, how horrid.
		
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Especially knowing how he went about getting the ride in the 1st place (although in his defence I guess you can't fault his business sense!) 

There's a very interesting interview with him in Horse mag atm....


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## soupdragon71 (26 April 2011)

SusieT said:



			And how sure are you he wasn't injured? All it takes is eg. a groin strain from having a 'few falls' to make a rider unable to ride the next day. It is wasy to judge withuot facts. Just seeing it from both sides.
		
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You're right - I have no idea if he was injured, but the way he vaulted up on the last one he fell off I would say there wasn't a lot wrong with him!! I don't want to get into an argument about Oli but at the time he was known for being a bit too competitive - too many horses and spreading himself a bit too thin. And wasn't impressed with the way he dealt with the woman who caught his horse! No need for that. 

Have been in that situation before (from both sides) and always very grateful, especially when horse had managed to tangle his bridle around his legs!!) My instant reaction is 'is horse ok' but maybe I'm a bunny hugger!! I only have one to compete so he is quite precious. And also had a very grateful pro thank me for catching his escapee.


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## Cyrus (27 April 2011)

I get saddened by this forum and the flack it gives to OT yes this pairing seem to not suit but this guy cares about his horses and will be saddened by what happened on sunday and ACM will be getting every bit of care needed.


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## marmalade76 (27 April 2011)

Woodykat said:



			Especially knowing how he went about getting the ride in the 1st place (although in his defence I guess you can't fault his business sense!)
		
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How was that? Please spill!


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## CalllyH (27 April 2011)

I'm not sure oli will be known as a top rider we will give much respect too to be honest. I think sadly if he and his management maybe spent more time looking at good horses and producing them for big events than they do making oli t calendars an ripping off people to join his 'fan club' then he might actually have another successful year.


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## BronsonNutter (27 April 2011)

Maybe ACM and OT will not be a four star combination, but I don't think that's because neither of them are capable - they both are, as proven by OT winning Badminton & Burghley, and ACM completing with Emily - just seemingly not together.

I'm not a particularly big fan of OT (mainly for a reason that has not been mentioned on this thread, and I don't think it's particularly common knowledge... I also don't like the way he seemingly 'poaches' horses he likes - but it seems quite a lot do that...) and I am just wondering if ACM may be hurting somewhere, as well as having no confidence in his rider. He just didn't look happy imo, especially when compared to those older photos of him with Emily, or in comparison to other 4* horses like Opposition Buzz or Lenamore, just skipping round.


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## Vizslak (27 April 2011)

^^^LOL I agree with this to point! But you can't fault the mans business sense! Those calenders, clothing range, membership fees must be extremely helpful in helping fund the yard and horses and olivers career! You cant say you wouldnt do it! He is popular with the younguns (and a fair few 18-30's!) and fair play to him you can't really damn him for cashing in! I sure would! 
He's got some lovely horses coming up through right now, notebly I reckon Jeepers creepers will be the one to watch for the future, pure class. Possibly the horse out of his own stallion he has just taken the ride on as well, Power line?


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## Woodykat (27 April 2011)

BronsonNutter said:



			I'm not a particularly big fan of OT (mainly for a reason that has not been mentioned on this thread, and I don't think it's particularly common knowledge...
		
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I also have a reason not mentioned here yet - hehe, i wonder if it's the same as yours.....?



BronsonNutter said:



			I also don't like the way he seemingly 'poaches' horses he likes - but it seems quite a lot do that...)
		
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this is what i was pointing at with my last post - it's all in the interview, inc how he's been told by other riders that he's not welcome!  (apparently anyway!)


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## Cyrus (27 April 2011)

Vizslak said:



			He's got some lovely horses coming up through right now, notebly I reckon Jeepers creepers will be the one to watch for the future, pure class. Possibly the horse out of his own stallion he has just taken the ride on as well, Power line?
		
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Fully agree two very very nice horses especially Powerline, him and O already seem to make a great pairing and to those who think he feels nothing for his horses should have seen him wrapped around this horses neck after the SJ at Isleham he was literally hugging him


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## Trolt (27 April 2011)

SusieT said:



			As for the pic of him walkiiing away-An oft quoted horse scenario is 'walk away rather than reach for the stick'? The horse doesn't care who walks him back.. A bond is all very well but as I said-we're not at riding club pat the pony level.. When you are gutted and a lot of money has just gone out the window and (imo) your horse has let you down I bet you don't care if people think you are nice to your pony.
ETS-he wasn't on three legs that I could see.. Stiff/tired yes.
		
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Quoted SusieT but could have been anyone with a similar viewpoint 

Completley agree. I'm an eventing groom, and I'd much prefer it if the rider handed me the horse and walked off to collect themselves, than acted aggressively (because they are annoyed) with the horse.
The top riders know when it has been their fault, and they are disappointed and angry. It is even more frustrating if you only have yourself to be cross with! They know the horse will be well treated and looked after by the groom ... that is afterall, why they have grooms.

I don't blame Oli for taking a few moments to calm himself down and gather his thoughts. As someone else said on here (which I hadn't considered) this horse almost killed him at Kentucky. Maybe he needed a few moments to consider what he'd say to the owners and decide whether it is worth risking?

Have met Oli at numerous events and he's always been lovely. Have watched him ride some very tricky horses and he's been an utter joy to watch. As for cashing in on it all ... I would to! Very astute, all it would take is one fall and his career would be over, why not try and set up other avenues and make the most money whilst you can??


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## gabanna (27 April 2011)

henryhorn said:



			I see the bunny huggers have crept into here too (sorry but really, slating the man for allowing someone else to lead his horse back? !! )
If you had just suffered a crunching fall off a horse that damn near killed you last year  I would imagine you would want a some time to calm down and breathe..
Once that horse got back to the stables you can be certain the rider would have been around to check him over and advise what treatment to give him. 
No-one knows what was going through the rider's mind at the time, for all we know he could have been devastated thinking it was possibly the final straw. 
Yes he is a very strong rider but he's also a damn good one, and he helped that horse at every jump, he's also a brave one after that dreadful fall last year. Some riders would have declined to compete it again.
Reading everyone else's views I think this horse really isn't happy at this level for some reason, rider/pain/lost his confidence whatever, and needs to step down and enjoy life again. If after some HC comps he regains his lovely jump and zest then it's obvious he needs to drop back and perhaps be a schoolmaster at a low level or do dressage/SJ  instead.  After all , I'm sure his owners desperately want him to be happy.
		
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Vizslak said:



			well said, better than I put it!
		
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^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^this


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## amyneave (27 April 2011)

I stood and watched ACM and Oli through the lake, and he left a leg going in. From where I was stood Oli looked well to sit as well as he did, and then get the horse out the straight way. He looked very tired as he approched the lake. I think maybe as he gets near the end, he gets tired and doesn't pick up so well.


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## amage (27 April 2011)

Slightly different situation but recently we ran a horse in a pt2pt. It is the only horse we trained that my OH actually owned and we had really high hopes for him. The horse had always had bad luck with silly injuries but this season we finally got him right and he was in top form. Cruising along two from home he stopped still for no apparent reason (we later discovered he had bled in his lungs but it hadn't shown). His jockey was 100% sure he was going to win until he stopped as he hadn't even asked him for anything yet and had less than half a mile to go. OH was gutted and couldn't even look at the horse/wash him off and didn't come back to the horsebox till time to leave. I did off the horse and settled him again. I was livid at the time till we got home and OH and unloaded horse and burst into tears. He knew from the minute he went wrong that we would have to retire him and he was so upset he knew that he couldn't have kept his composure so waited until we were home. I would hazard a guess that this may be a similiar reaction to Oli's. He could have been killed off the horse, the two of them had to work bloody hard to get healed and fit and together again, he had masterfully planned the sunken road in the easiest most time efficient manner for the horse and was having a great spin until the lake.


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## Black Beth (27 April 2011)

As stated in my op my intention was not to start a new "Oliver bashing " thread. I am far from being an expert and have nothing but admiration for any of you that compete at this level. However, I do believe that, having watched ACM at numerous events, he was not happy from the outset on Sunday. I do not feel qualified to comment on anyones riding on that day but I do know that riding is a partnership.
Yes I do have a connection to Emily in that I have had the privilege of watching her bring ACM throuh the grades. After watching the pair jump round Burghley twice I believe they were capable of great things (my opinion). After all there is a certain amount of luck involved and without the 20 penalties incurred in 2009 and them having to them take the long route at that fence they would have been very close to the optimum time. I for one call a potential top 10 placing competitive! 
In my opinion the dye was cast the day the decision was made to take the horse from Emily and aim him at Kentucky. Had ACM had more experience at that level or had Oliver taken the time to build a partnership with the horse things might be different. Maybe they are a partnership that will never work, maybe there is a mechanical problem now and yes they are an accident waiting to happen(which none of us wants to see).
The point I was trying to make is that the horse had enormous potential and we may never know what he might have achieved!


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## jenbleep (27 April 2011)

kirstyhen said:



			As for OT and ACM, I don't have enough knowledge to comment, but I feel sorry for OT. He gets a hell of a rough ride from pretty much everyone on here, when I think his riding has changed immensely in the last few years and through that sunken road complex, thought he looked brilliant.
		
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I agree. What's everyone's beef with OT?!


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## NR99 (27 April 2011)

Gosh this thread is bizarre, I'm in awe I didn't realise we had so many 4* riders in our midst to give us the benefit of their experience.

I agree with Henryhorn and I feel that whatever our level of experience only Oli T and the ACM team know or will be able to find out what is going on. Yes it is sad when a rider loses a ride but that's professional eventing and it happens all the time.

Also in response to the comment about tired horses at the sunken road I sat there for a long time including for EPs fall and a lot of horses did leave a leg there some were very lucky to stay upright.

By all means ponder what went wrong but give the guy a break, I'm no fan but it seems pointless to drag up old experiences of him I think he rode a good round, certainly at the point I saw them.


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## Firewell (27 April 2011)

It may be a partnership thing, maybe the horse goes better for a female, maybe it's something else entirely who knows!
To me he 'looked' fit, he seems a big horse but he looked lean as a whippet but maybe he wasn't that fit?
I don't know much about Oli Townend apart from that he has obviously put everything he has to get to the top, he's very very competitive but that's why he's done so well?! I think he always seems really nice in his interviews and when I've seen him on TV, he always speaks sensibly about his horses. He was saying in the commentary box before he rode round on Saturday that ACM has got a bad name after kentucky but the horse didn't deserve it as he was an amazing horse. I feel a bit sorry for Oli, it must be really frustrating. Maybe he has been too competitive and gone about things the wrong way sometimes but he's still fairly young, late 20's? It's all stuff he will learn, at least he's going for it and helping Britain to win medals.


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## lannerch (27 April 2011)

I know someone that used to train acm when he was with emily and she says they found the more you held his head the more he droped a leg. 
That said  I was at the quarry to witness olis fall, also to see mark todd ride his horse over. Both acm and Lv were obviously very tired, oli also when I saw him very light hands, so in this instance I wonder if it was due more to the horse being tired.
 Lv was equally tired the difference being luckily for mark is he does not have a habbit of dropping a leg. Both oli and Mark rode very well.

I do not go for oli bashing he is a very talented rider with a lot of drive and determination, who has a target and will go for that target whatever it takes something to be admired imo, lets face it to start with he had nothing but himself so to get where he is has to be aplauded. That said I would love emily though to have acm back ( I think she still has part ownership of the horse ).

Oli certainly did not go straight home in this instance as later in the evening he was in the bar, so one of our group went up to him and asked if the younger members (14yolds ) could have their photo taken with him, not only did he say yes he also turned round and pulled on the arm of a blonde sitting down saying you'll want this one as well, this one as well turned out to be xara phillips, thankyou oli and xara you made their day.


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## kerilli (27 April 2011)

oldvic said:



			The reason he was sent Topping was that he was consistently stopping with his previous rider and he needed some strength, grit and determination to get him going. He was pretty successful on him.
Emily did produce ACM very well but there comes a stage where they have to step up from being nannied round to going up a gear and becoming truly competitive - they are, after all, COMPETITION horses. If you leave it too long then they can't cope when taken to the edge of their comfort zone as they need to quicken their reactions and aren't used to it. This horse has a very long stride and finds it hard to stay adjustable after a certain time and this was a major factor in his fall in Kentucky - he didn't have a great distance because he couldn't shorten - and if they can't adjust and bring their weight back more onto their hind legs then they will be more inclined to leave a leg. I agree that here he fell because he was very tired but this sort of course would be more tiring for this sort of horse than a bouncy horse like Lenamore who is always "on his feet". For a top rider a horse needs to be able to be ridden competitively - it is the point of their job and trying to win is what they are there for.

Oli was very successful on Land Vision (not out of the 1st 3) in the year he rode him including winning the intermediate championship.
		
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Nobody is disputing that he is a very good rider. He did an excellent job with Topping until their crunching fall at Burghley at the bounce out of the water... when, iirc, the horse had a moment's doubt and tried to add a stride that wasn't there.
I firmly believe you cannot drive a horse at every fence and expect it to get round. At some point the doubt creeps in and nobody is strong enough to shove a reluctant horse over a fence, be it 2' high or 4*... it happened this weekend for KO'C and Mandiba at the Outlander Bank (she did nothing wrong other than ride him to the fence, perfectly, she got a great shot to it, he jumped up perfectly, but (because of what had happened at the previous fence?) his heart wasn't in it), and to Ruth Edge, whose horse showed he wasn't 'taking her' the moment she lapsed very slightly from her perfect position (the hold on the course didn't help her at all though, I appreciate that.) 
Back to topic, I think ACM shows his reluctance/tension physically, by starting to be slow with his leading knee when he starts tiring (or, in Kentucky, when he was put very deep, which he's not used to with someone of OT's accuracy).

I disagree 100% that if the horse is taken more slowly, "nannied" as oldvic put it, "if you leave it too long then they can't cope when taken to the edge of their comfort zone as they need to quicken their reactions and aren't used to it. "
To use a very high profile example, Horton Point had never been taken fast, he'd been beautifully produced by Ros and Lynn Bevan but neither was a speed merchant, particularly Lynn - a SJ at heart - who had ridden the horse in the previous few years. She was injured, the catch ride went to Mark Todd the week of Badminton. The horse got a real shock at the first steeplechase fence (story told in MT's autobiography iirc) when the person on top didn't set him up as he expected, just kept coming fast and left him to it, and they nearly fell... but he learnt VERY fast from that and they did a foot-perfect clear inside the time as pathfinders... that old horse had NEVER been taken xc at that speed but wasn't flummoxed, didn't doubt, didn't leave knees down or lose his style... his reactions were fast enough after that one blunder. Okay, he had The Master on him, so maybe that's an unfair example, but I hope it shows that taking a horse slowly (for years and years in his case) did not prevent him from being taken fast later, very successfully.

I don't think it should be the end of ACM's 4* career, fwiw. He usually jumps very tidily until he's tiring. I'd just like to see him taken a little more slowly, get a nice one under his belt, for the sake of both their confidence...


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## MiaBella (27 April 2011)

Not a fan of OT's style of riding, but it works with some horses. 

In this instance though, 3 horse falls in just over 12months suggests there is something seriously wrong with the partnership.  No idea what the horse fall at Lincoln was like on their second outing, but the one at Lexington and the one at Badminton were crashing falls that surely will dent their confidence together.  Yes they have had successes in between the two but the one at Badminton was obviously going to happen at some point.  As the commentator said, they had used up their nine lives from the lake onwards.  

The horse looked tired (as did others) but this horse was making mistake after mistake.  Perhaps next time OT will pull up rather than plugging on.


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## meardsall_millie (27 April 2011)

kirstyhen said:



			As for OT and ACM, I don't have enough knowledge to comment, but I feel sorry for OT. He gets a hell of a rough ride from pretty much everyone on here, when I think his riding has changed immensely in the last few years and through that sunken road complex, thought he looked brilliant.
		
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I'll disagree with this slightly Kirsty - he gets a rough ride from pretty much everyone on here _who has commented_.  As ever, when these posts descend into the HHO post-big event hysteria, and the sniping starts, I believe who _hasn't_ commented speaks more loudly than who has.


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## TPO (27 April 2011)

meardsall_millie said:



			I'll disagree with this slightly Kirsty - he gets a rough ride from pretty much everyone on here _who has commented_.  As ever, when these posts descend into the HHO post-big event hysteria, and the sniping starts, I believe who _hasn't_ commented speaks more loudly than who has.
		
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Agreed, I'm a "know nothing" lurker but the lack of replies by certain users on various threads definitely speaks volumes.


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## kirstyhen (27 April 2011)

meardsall_millie said:



			I'll disagree with this slightly Kirsty - he gets a rough ride from pretty much everyone on here _who has commented_.  As ever, when these posts descend into the HHO post-big event hysteria, and the sniping starts, I believe who _hasn't_ commented speaks more loudly than who has.
		
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Very true and something I did notice!


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## amy_b (27 April 2011)

MegaBeast said:



			I would disagree WoopsiiD, at the moment of immense disappointment whether it's your fault, the horses fault or just simple rotten luck I can totally empathise with the not wanting to look at your horse feeling.  Been there, done that got the t-shirt.  And no one could have a stronger bond than I do with my mare but it is possible, when something is really important to you, that you feel so emotionally let down, upset, devastated etc that you just don't want to see your best friend.  Especially in this case where he would know the horse is in the best of hands and he probably feels both gutted and humiliated.  fwiw he wasn't the only rider who walked off in the opposite direction to their horse (and I'm not referring to K O'C).
		
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agree agree agree!!
there have been times when Im so angry at myself/my horse where I cant stand to look at him/her, we have all been there!
and how many riders that have ridden round a 4* course stay to play pat the pony?!! 
at the end of the day the girl that produced him might have done a very nice job and got him to that level but Oli is there to do a job and isnt being paid to canter him round just so that the owners can wear nice badges for the week!
Its well documented that during XC phase the british riders are told to get round and not worry about looking pretty & the riders quoted to be more stylish (e.g WFP etc) have up to 20 years experience over Oli, Its easy to sit behind your computers and slag these guys off but I bet given the opportunity none of you would say any of this to his/their faces!!


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## kerilli (27 April 2011)

amy_b said:



			agree agree agree!!
there have been times when Im so angry at myself/my horse where I cant stand to look at him/her, we have all been there!
and how many riders that have ridden round a 4* course stay to play pat the pony?!! 
at the end of the day the girl that produced him might have done a very nice job and got him to that level but Oli is there to do a job and isnt being paid to canter him round just so that the owners can wear nice badges for the week!
Its well documented that during XC phase the british riders are told to get round and not worry about looking pretty & the riders quoted to be more stylish (e.g WFP etc) have up to 20 years experience over Oli, Its easy to sit behind your computers and slag these guys off but I bet given the opportunity none of you would say any of this to his/their faces!!
		
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i've been angry with horses, but NEVER after a mistake xc, no matter how disappointed i was. if i'd just put a horse on the floor (and most horse falls are imho rider error in some way) i'd want to console the horse, not murder him.  
do you really think that riders who do take horses slightly slower UNTIL they feel they can safely go faster, such as WFP, are "being paid to canter him round just so that the owners can wear nice badges for the week"?!  It is all part of a big scheme. 
LC is a prime example, she had everything to play for, but she rode with a maturity well beyond her tender years to bring that horse home nicely clear. She could have gone faster, if she'd got the time she could perhaps have won her first ever Badminton... but she rode slightly slower (and nobody ever said 'canter round' fgs) for a super clear and a top 10 placing.
Other very young riders also rode very very well, and sensibly - Lauren Shannon, Alice Pearson. They did super clear rounds that will have done their horse's confidence the world of good. I hope their day will come...
there are 4* riders who obviously dote on their horses, i can think of quite a few.
you know what, i don't say anything on here i would say to someone in person.


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## amy_b (27 April 2011)

what I meant is that in my personal experience where the horse has done something wrong (and im NOT saying it wasnt my fault for whatever reason!!!) personally I would often leave him/her so that i dont take it out on them! 
and the ones that as i said 'canter round' (i mean give them a nice clear) are usual first time riders or first time horses and i dont think that anyone can disagree with that, I didnt say WFP does that. but this wasn't the horse's first 4* and it wasnt OT first 4* so shouldnt have a need to go steady to give him a confidence run, if anything thats something to save for the significantly sheaper one-days?
I do think there are people out there who want the horse just to get round (cue badge comment) and if I was offensive i apologise, what i mean is those people are usually proud to get their horses to that level and arent there for the prize money pre se, correct me if im wrong but I dont think this is the case with the top riders and its not fair to give OT all the stick for one mistake at one event when there are riders much better and much worse up and down the country making mistakes on a daily basis, I dont remember Harry Meade getting this much stick for horrifyingly (sp?!) bad horsemanship with dunauger a couple of years ago at burghley(i think?!)
and as for the young riders I dont need any persuading, I go to Bramham every year and see them at various events throughout the season and am in a constant state of envy that somebody in my age group can be so competitive alongside the very best in the sport.


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## kerilli (27 April 2011)

Trust me, HM got a huge amount of stick on here for his one-off brainstorm... 
the stick for OT is absolutely NOT for "one mistake at one event", it's for 3 HF on the same horse within a fairly short period of time (just over a year). that's a statistic anyone would be concerned about, however illustrious the rider or horse. if that horse had never hung a knee before it'd be different.
the thing is, i think you're still misunderstanding me. there is a huge gulf between 'going for the time' and 'going for a good clear' to the extreme of 'just hacking round for a completion'. i think if this horse was ridden for 'a good clear' rather than 'the time' he'd have more chance to remember to get that leading knee up when he gets a bit tired... and maybe he wouldn't win, but he'd prob get a nice top 10 placing... isn't that better than ending up on the floor again?! also, sometimes 'going for a good clear' gets a win, even at 4*... e.g. Cool Mountain last year at Kentucky. WFP has been quoted as saying he was really surprised to win, he didn't go out there to win, or attempt to get the time (at the horse's first 4*).
i can see a huge diff between, say, getting 10 time penalties and 40... if this horse was just taken a little bit slower i think he'd cope far better and not lose his style so disastrously. just mho though obv.


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## amy_b (27 April 2011)

Well I agree with everything you just said...!
maybe the problem is by the time he realised the horse was tired the damage was done, anybody in a competitive position is going to set off for the time surely? and is it fair to blame the rider _aaaalll_ the time? seems to be a silly horse to me!!


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## oldvic (27 April 2011)

kerilli said:



			I firmly believe you cannot drive a horse at every fence and expect it to get round. At some point the doubt creeps in and nobody is strong enough to shove a reluctant horse over a fence, be it 2' high or 4*... it happened this weekend for KO'C and Mandiba at the Outlander Bank (she did nothing wrong other than ride him to the fence, perfectly, she got a great shot to it, he jumped up perfectly, but (because of what had happened at the previous fence?) his heart wasn't in it), and to Ruth Edge, whose horse showed he wasn't 'taking her' the moment she lapsed very slightly from her perfect position (the hold on the course didn't help her at all though, I appreciate that.) 
Back to topic, I think ACM shows his reluctance/tension physically, by starting to be slow with his leading knee when he starts tiring (or, in Kentucky, when he was put very deep, which he's not used to with someone of OT's accuracy).

I disagree 100% that if the horse is taken more slowly, "nannied" as oldvic put it, "if you leave it too long then they can't cope when taken to the edge of their comfort zone as they need to quicken their reactions and aren't used to it. "
To use a very high profile example, Horton Point had never been taken fast, he'd been beautifully produced by Ros and Lynn Bevan but neither was a speed merchant, particularly Lynn - a SJ at heart - who had ridden the horse in the previous few years. She was injured, the catch ride went to Mark Todd the week of Badminton. The horse got a real shock at the first steeplechase fence (story told in MT's autobiography iirc) when the person on top didn't set him up as he expected, just kept coming fast and left him to it, and they nearly fell... but he learnt VERY fast from that and they did a foot-perfect clear inside the time as pathfinders... that old horse had NEVER been taken xc at that speed but wasn't flummoxed, didn't doubt, didn't leave knees down or lose his style... his reactions were fast enough after that one blunder. Okay, he had The Master on him, so maybe that's an unfair example, but I hope it shows that taking a horse slowly (for years and years in his case) did not prevent him from being taken fast later, very successfully.

I don't think it should be the end of ACM's 4* career, fwiw. He usually jumps very tidily until he's tiring. I'd just like to see him taken a little more slowly, get a nice one under his belt, for the sake of both their confidence...
		
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The interesting thing about Horton Point was that Mark rode him fairly strongly all the way in spite of him being used to a small girl and throughout the 2nd half of the course he didn't ride for any deep distances - he was forward and off every fence. The horse had the scope and the trust to be able to do it and Mark had the strength, skill and eye to make it easy for him. His reactions were not tested to a high degree.

Mandiba did have a perfect shot to the bank but landed a little short so was a little too far off the log for a horse that wasn't really going hence he stopped.
Two Tyme was never reaaly going and Ruth was having to be very strong all the way. She nearly pulled it off but, as you say, as soon as she got out of position he took advantage.
When a horse gets tired the adjustability of the stride goes and then it is too hard for some horses to stay tidy infront. I'm not saying that he can't jump safely round a 4* in his own time but that doesn't make him a competitive 4* horse.


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## Doormouse (27 April 2011)

WoopsiiD said:



			A picture paints a thousand words.....






We were concerned about ACM after the fall as he did look very sore and tired. OT undid the girth and then walked off. We watched ACM all the way back and OT didn't even look back at the horse.
There really is no bond there and no bond in my opinion means that you don't have the crucial partnership needed to do 4*
		
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I so agree with this.  The horse was upset by his fall and he looked at Oli for reassurance.  However competitive Mr Townend may be there was no excuse no to at least give that poor horse a pat.

My humble opinion on the whole situation is that if a horse falls out of tiredness the fault must lie with the jockey/producer not the horse.  They are responsible for the horses fitness and if it is not fit enough then they should take responisibilty.  If a horse consistantly struggles at this level then he should be looked at for potential problems.


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## Carefreegirl (27 April 2011)

Doormouse said:



			I so agree with this.  The horse was upset by his fall and he looked at Oli for reassurance.  However competitive Mr Townend may be there was no excuse no to at least give that poor horse a pat.

Totally agree. Several years ago my friend got her horse to HOYS and we parked next to a well known sj (married to an eventer) and his horse had a paddy and put its hoof through the lorry window. A call was put out for him (before mobiles) and the guy riding riding my friends horse said 'you watch he'll ignore the horse and check the lorry'. Thats exactly what he did, not been a fan since.
		
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## fiarmay (27 April 2011)

How many of you after a horse fall like kentucky could get back on and get straight back out there asap and compete said horse very competitively again? Would deja vue be going thru your head as you fell again and think i might not be lucky this time? I think ollie trusts his dad to take the horse back to be looked after and prob had to go and see the doctor himself, decide what he was going to say to owners and media. He would be concerned about the horse but as outwardly it looked ok just sore it ould just be a matter of getting back to the stables and seeing what was going on then.


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## UnaB (27 April 2011)

Wow, what a long thread!

I cant really criticise OTs riding style too much, i dont compete never mind at that level!  I have, however, seen OT come up through the ranks (we competed in ponies at the same time, often in the same classes) and he has always had a very aggressive riding style and it was encouraged by his trainers in the warm ups so it is how he has been taught to ride.  He has had much success so I can understand why its hard to try to change that style.

I do find it sad that he (apparently) has no bond with the horse though.  Yes, i never competed to the high levels of Badminton, but we did pretty well, and we also had a couple of horrific falls over some tough courses.  Every time we had a fall, even if I just fell off and the horse didnt fall (that can often be almost as upsetting for the horse!) I would always, always give the horse a pat of reassurance and walk it back to the lorry with some kind words.  Unless I was on my way to hospital   I dont think theres any excuse for just walking off without a look back, leaving someone else to care for and reassure the horse after such a heavy fall where he looked to be in some pain afterwards.    But, possibly im just too soft, im clearly not cut out for top level eventing as I "retired" from it after my horse was seriously injured in a fall as I was scared to death of losing him.  Thats a risk that the rider has to take every time you compete and im not cut out for that at all, im too scared of falling lol.

When I have seen interviews with OT he does come across as very arrogant.  I dont know the guy personally, thats just the impression I get.  Maybe he has had so much success and has so many people pandering after him that he's forgotten why we all start with competing in the first place - cos we love the horses!  Yes, results are important for the top riders, im sure theres a huge amount of pressure to keep winning, but it shouldnt be at the expense of the welfare or confidence of the horses.  I have seen Mark Todd and WFP nurse horses around the big courses after they've had a confidence knock, a good rider should be able to do that, not just keep throwing them into the fences and hoping for the best.


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## Honey08 (27 April 2011)

Don't you think too many people are going off this one shot of them walking back?  From what I saw on tv, it looked as though OT walked over to the horse when he got up to see if it was ok.  At that point the horse was on 3 legs and looked injured.  A picture doesn't always tell the story.  How many horses are grabbed by the grooms as soon as the rider dismounts in the collecting ring, and the rider talks to the tv presenters?  Its a different world from our levels.


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## kerilli (27 April 2011)

Honey08 said:



			Don't you think too many people are going off this one shot of them walking back?  From what I saw on tv, it looked as though OT walked over to the horse when he got up to see if it was ok.  At that point the horse was on 3 legs and looked injured.  A picture doesn't always tell the story.  How many horses are grabbed by the grooms as soon as the rider dismounts in the collecting ring, and the rider talks to the tv presenters?  Its a different world from our levels.
		
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The horse was not 'on three legs', he had put his foot through his reins and effectively hobbled himself.
It's a different world IF the rider chooses it to be. Laura B warmed Alf down herself at WEG... I'm sure she could have just handed him over to a groom and gone to the waiting journalists, but she chose not to...


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## Honey08 (27 April 2011)

It doesn't matter IF they choose it to be - as long as the horse is ok.

I take your point about the reins.


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## OneInAMillion (27 April 2011)

RE: the bond thing, I know a lot of pro's try not to get too close to the horses as they can start to become pets, they end up making excuses when things go wrong etc. So by not having too much of a bond they keep a working relationship with the horse. IYKWIM (not sure that makes sense!)


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## sonjafoers (27 April 2011)

I can't comment on Oli's riding style being an amateur competing locally but didn't he get a bit of a slating not too long ago for entering maybe too many events last year? I can't remember the circumstances or the horse involved but I remember reading comments that it had had too long a season which led to mistakes. Can anyone enlighten me on that please - was it ACM?

What I can comment on though is how lovely Oli was to my husband & I a few years ago at Badminton. We were walking the xc course the evening before the xc & Oli overheard my husband talking to me in his very broad Yorkshire accent, so he came up to us & asked Andy where he was from. They had a good old chat about Yorkshire and Oli then asked me if I was competing  )I'm the wrong side of 40 & the wrong side of 10 stone!!) so as a joke my husband said it was him competing and asked him for the line he would take at the jump we were at! Oli knew it was a p**s take (good old Yorkshire humour) but explained the line to us and said it was a jump he was nervous of. We then walked 3 or 4 fences with him before we let him go so he could concentrate on the job in hand.

To me that wasn't a PR exercise, there was noone else there to see what he was doing & if it was to gain PR brownie points he needn't have spent so much time with us. If we hadn't have let him go I'm sure we could have walked the whole course with him.He really changed my opinion of him and I thought how genuine & down to earth he was.

Maybe he has been groomed a bit since the situation where he took his horse without saying thank you as posted earlier, or maybe he has just had to grow up being in the public eye but whatever it is he certainly didn't seem arrogant.


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## dingle12 (27 April 2011)

God you all jump on the wagon dont you?? Oli did not just leave ACM his dad Alan checked over him and took him off him.
I do wish Oli would come on hear to clear some of this rubbish up but good on him really for keeping his mouth shut.
How many of you ride at 4* or have even produced a horse anywhere near that .


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## Cyrus (27 April 2011)

dingle12 said:



			God you all jump on the wagon dont you?? Oli did not just leave ACM his dad Alan checked over him and took him off him.
I do wish Oli would come on hear to clear some of this rubbish up but good on him really for keeping his mouth shut.
How many of you ride at 4* or have even produced a horse anywhere near that .
		
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I know that he pretty much sees most things thats said about him on here and I feel bloody sorry for him, hes a good guy, down to earth and has time for people, yes he may not be everyones cup of tea as a rider but that is no reason to lay into him


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## dingle12 (27 April 2011)

yep i know he reads it but sometimes i think he should comment, as i said he has done well so far to keep his mouth shut  as he has never been that good at that lol.


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## oldvic (27 April 2011)

kerilli said:



			I firmly believe you cannot drive a horse at every fence and expect it to get round. At some point the doubt creeps in and nobody is strong enough to shove a reluctant horse over a fence, be it 2' high or 4*... 
I don't think it should be the end of ACM's 4* career, fwiw. He usually jumps very tidily until he's tiring. I'd just like to see him taken a little more slowly, get a nice one under his belt, for the sake of both their confidence...
		
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I have just been watching a recording of Badminton and I'm not sure where the "driving at every fence" comes from. If anything Oli tends to hold him off the fences and sit quiet to them, not with a strong or fixed hand but containing his stride. In fact, he allows him to come to the lake where he leaves a leg and he doesn't hold him off the log where he fell. ACM is clearly very bold and forward thinking to the fences and shows no reluctance. Going the long route at the sunken road would be to do with the horse's technique (or lack of) rather than through not wanting to do it.


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## kerilli (27 April 2011)

oldvic said:



			I have just been watching a recording of Badminton and I'm not sure where the "driving at every fence" comes from. If anything Oli tends to hold him off the fences and sit quiet to them, not with a strong or fixed hand but containing his stride. In fact, he allows him to come to the lake where he leaves a leg and he doesn't hold him off the log where he fell. ACM is clearly very bold and forward thinking to the fences and shows no reluctance. Going the long route at the sunken road would be to do with the horse's technique (or lack of) rather than through not wanting to do it.
		
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i haven't rewatched it, so it may be my memory playing me up, in which case i stand corrected... i meant driving hard with legs and seat, nothing to do with 'holding him off the fences' or anything. yes, i agree about the route he took at the sunken road, i thought he was very clever to take that almost-impossible line to avoid the extra risk at the higher (?) rail if the horse did hang a leg.


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## SusieT (27 April 2011)

The video link is earlier on this thread. Not one person who says oli was driving/riding 'far too fast' etc. with foot to the floor has commented on it. Perhaps because there is no evidence in the video of riding along those lines?!


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## Weezy (27 April 2011)

SusieT said:



			The video link is earlier on this thread. Not one person who says oli was driving/riding 'far too fast' etc. with foot to the floor has commented on it. Perhaps because there is no evidence in the video of riding along those lines?!
		
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It is posted twice, as I had already posted it before you Susie


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## trick123 (27 April 2011)

it's funny isn't it, it doesn't matter what sport or occupation for that matter, if someone is successful,  the great british habit is to find fault and knock them. but everyone is entitled to an opinion whether we agree with it or not.
oliver is quite shy and doesn't really have a lot of confidence believe it or not, i've known him since his jrn days and he was obviously determined to earn a living at his chosen sport, and like all people who are that determined he has had to make some difficult descisions [sp?]. i've seen him ride horses that nobody else could ride, one reason i would never buy a horse from him ha!, but the horses have never seemed unhappy just well disciplined.
i agree with some people that perhaps ACM is just not the horse for him. 
my daughter competes, our own horses fortunately, at 4* level, and although we bring our horses from nothing up to that level, we did buy an intermediate, but it took her a year for them to 'understand' one another. but the big professionals cannot afford to take that long, their horses must be capable of winning quickly, because that's how they attract owners, media coverage and hence are able to earn a living.
i do love watching AN and WFP riding a course they are so clever at making it all look so easy, they do bring horses through the grades themselves even if AN has his very young horses at advanced level!
let's find fault with some of the german riders instead, doesn't anybody teach them to get off their backs, a basic xc technique, oops i'll be in trouble hee hee


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