# Hobbles- would you? Do you?



## FanyDuChamp (18 December 2011)

I was just reading a thread that some suggested hobbles on, now when I was younger you saw it fairly frequently, now not so much. So my questions are do you hobble? If so why? And does it cure or mask the problem?
FDC


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## Thistle (18 December 2011)

I have a large strong horse who has a tendency to kick the lorry when standing at shows, he wears hobbles behing if he is in 'that' mood. Only when stood though, NEVER to travel


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## Merry Crisis (18 December 2011)

Yep I have done in the past, my old mare used to be a door basher. Soon stopped those shannagins! Not sure I would want to travel a horse in them though.


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## FanyDuChamp (18 December 2011)

Did it stop the actual problem when the hobbles were removed MC?
FDC


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## classicalfan (18 December 2011)

Used them in Australia.  Stopped the horse wandering off overnight.  Would never use them travelling though - sounds like a recipe for disaster.


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## Merry Crisis (18 December 2011)

Yes to that too! She soon forgot her nasty and unsociable habit. I gave my hobbles to my OH who used them on a cow that used to do the splits in the cubicles. Usefull things hobbles!


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## FanyDuChamp (18 December 2011)

What is the weather like with you MC?
FDC


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## Merry Crisis (18 December 2011)

RedNosedFany said:



			What is the weather like with you MC?
FDC
		
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Lovely RNF! Frozen, no mud and sunny. Just been for a long walk with the dogs. Roads not safe to ride on though. Same with you?


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## FanyDuChamp (18 December 2011)

Merry Crisis said:



			Lovely RNF! Frozen, no mud and sunny. Just been for a long walk with the dogs. Roads not safe to ride on though. Same with you?
		
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Getting there MC, it is cold but bright. Roads are icy because of the thaw yesterday and the tops are covered with snow. Why have we not seen you on MisFits lately, get your bum back missus!
FDC


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## Wagtail (18 December 2011)

No, I haven't and can't think of a valid reason for using them either, especially to travel. When I read that I was horrified. Any of the horses here would absolutely freak if I used them. And the thought of them travelling in them and not being able to move all their legs when needed just fills me with dread. I know someone who used to use them on a horse that frequently jumped out of his paddock, and I guess that in this case it was okay as he was quite chilled wearing them, but personally I would prefer to use a diffeent method of deterrent such as running electric fencing a metre in from the boundary fence. That has cured every horse I have come across that liked to jump out.


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## Merry Crisis (18 December 2011)

RedNosedFany said:



			Getting there MC, it is cold but bright. Roads are icy because of the thaw yesterday and the tops are covered with snow. Why have we not seen you on MisFits lately, get your bum back missus!
FDC
		
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Lol, I am on my way!!!!


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## FanyDuChamp (18 December 2011)

Wagtail said:



			No, I haven't and can't think of a valid reason for using them either, especially to travel. When I read that I was horrified. Any of the horses here would absolutely freak if I used them. And the thought of them travelling in them and not being able to move all their legs when needed just fills me with dread. I know someone who used to use them on a horse that frequently jumped out of his paddock, and I guess that in this case it was okay as he was quite chilled wearing them, but personally I would prefer to use a diffeent method of deterrent such as running electric fencing a metre in from the boundary fence. That has cured every horse I have come across that liked to jump out.
		
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I know Captain would panic, yet years ago you used to see them a lot and the horses were fine. Strange how things change. I always have reservations about gadgets but maybe these work for some. Luckily neither of mine need them. 

Have thought of tethering Captain just to keep him in a field, but could not bring myself to do it and that is another whole big can of worms!

FDC


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## traceyann (18 December 2011)

I have used them once when my cob was three tried to pull his mane. has had it done before he was vet sedated and twitched and hobbled still manage to rear and pee of. Never would i do it again i just hogg him pulling his mane is the only thing i cant do with him.


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## only_me (18 December 2011)

Yep, have used them to stop horse kicking/pawing when standing in lorry at events.
I don't see the harm in them when used appropiately.


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## *hic* (18 December 2011)

Ha, it was I who suggested them!


I don't actually own a set and would have to purchase them but I think that it would be better to hobble my mare than the risk that her getting on the tack locker or wrenching her leg trying carries. Currently she has stopped being such a twit but if she restarts then I am seriously considering a set. I know various people who do have to hobble horses to either prevent just what my mare does or those who try to kick out backwards. I wouldn't travel in them - she doesn't do it then - and neither would i use them in her stable when she is inclined to paw the ground for attention. To solve that problem she has a stall chain and an extra rubber mat outside.


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## SpottedCat (18 December 2011)

I sometimes travel in them - and know plenty of others who do the same. My horse kicks for the final 30 seconds of any journey (how he knows when we are going to a new venue is beyond me!)

I've tried partitions wide, partitions close, but he does it just the same, and despite the partitions being spring loaded and very difficult to move, he is somehow able to kick in such a way as to lift the partition completely out, so it falls on him. Downright dangerous, especially if I have 2 in the back. It is pure impatience on his part as he loads and travels fine, and will stand quietly on the box all day. So for his own safety, he gets hobbled. 

He travels fine with them on, and has never panicked. I always hobble-train my horses - and it saved this one from injury recently when I found him wearing the fence round his back legs, with wooden posts waving about! 

I've not met a horse yet that panics with them if you introduce them correctly.


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## jaquelin (18 December 2011)

IMO - pretty old-fashioned but interesting to see their current uses.  Used to ue hobbles on a "cut-proud" (rig to you) gelding to try to keep him in a field - didn't work, he jumped fences with hobbles anyway.  Used to see cowboys hobble feral horses front & back to cast them for shoeing.


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## emmab13 (18 December 2011)

Yup, used to hobble behind OR in front (never both)to clip one that was trying to kill you/take your head off.  Would put them on in the indoor so they understood them and if they panicked wouldn't hurt themselves. 

Did the job, but only works safely on a naughty, bolshy one, a frightened one would quite likely hurt you or itself and you're better sedating tbh.


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## Ibblebibble (18 December 2011)

was tempted to use them on daughters old pony who was an escape artist, would eye up electric fencing and just run through it but resorted to tethering the little sod instead


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## Pearlsasinger (18 December 2011)

We bought a mare that had sore fetlocks when she was delivered to us (not when we tried her).  She had been shod in the meantime.  Our farrier knew that a farrier in the area that she came from routinely used hobbles to keep horses still for shoeing.  It took ages for our very patient farrier to get her right again. 
 I certainly wouldn't just slap them on a horse that wasn't used to them, as had obviously happened to our mare. 
 I'd be very wary of using them to travel a horse that was used to them, it sounds like a recipe for disaster to me.  And I wouldn't use them or sedation for a job like pulling a mane, that wasn't vital.


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## Merry Crisis (18 December 2011)

jaquelin said:



			IMO - pretty old-fashioned but interesting to see their current uses.  Used to ue hobbles on a "cut-proud" (rig to you) gelding to try to keep him in a field - didn't work, he jumped fences with hobbles anyway.  Used to see cowboys hobble feral horses front & back to cast them for shoeing.
		
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Well why did you not just use the word we all understand in the first place? RIG.  fgs.


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## Fools Motto (18 December 2011)

Use them for covering the mares. Much safer, don't want them kicking the stallion. Seems to be routine in most studs too.
Also used them for when a mare wanted to kick her new foal into oblivion last spring. That didn't work, it stressed her out and she tried to savage the poor foal with the front end, so we did re-think. (all worked out fine in the end).


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## Twilkolock (19 December 2011)

I can see their benefit when used for covering mares, by professionals and with a good thick bed should they fall.

However, after reading some of the posts, I'm a bit horrified. 

I think that some of the behavioural problems [that cause them to be used in the first place] are signs that the horse needs re-training/schooling, especially groundwork focusing on 'stop', 'go', yeild.

Spotted cat - (hobbling whilst travelling) there is a line of thought that says that pawing/kicking, as you describe, is a symptom of anxiety. It's interesting that he does this when approaching an event/show. A horse doesn't need to be Einstein to learn that travelling and simple changes such as change of gear and slowing down, equates/means shows at the end of it. From a equine psychology point of view a horse shows these symptoms when it feels conflict - often in its ridden work, such as stimultenous rein/leg pressure. I'd rather get to the bottom of the behaviour than whack hobbles on, but that's just me!

I have never used them and don't know of anyone else who has ever needed to use them.


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## Twilkolock (19 December 2011)

I can see their benefit when used for covering mares, by professionals and with a good thick bed should they fall.

However, after reading some of the posts, I'm a bit horrified.

I think that some of the behavioural problems [that cause them to be used in the first place] are signs that the horse needs re-training/schooling, especially groundwork focusing on 'stop', 'go', yeild.

Spotted cat - (hobbling whilst travelling) there is a line of thought that says that pawing/kicking, as you describe, is a symptom of anxiety. It's interesting that he does this when approaching an event/show. A horse doesn't need to be Einstein to learn that simple changes such as change of gear and slowing down whilst travelling equates/means shows at the end of it. From a equine psychology point of view a horse shows these symptoms when it feels conflict - often in its ridden work, such as stimultenous rein/leg pressure. I'd rather get to the bottom of the behaviour than whack hobbles on, but that's just me!

I have never used them and don't know of anyone else who has ever needed to use them


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## stilltrying (19 December 2011)

I've also used hobbles for travelling.  My horse went through a phase of violently pawing the floor of the trailer, as in leaping up and down bashing the floor (wooden!!) with his front legs.  I could see him bobbing up and down in my mirrors and it would rock my car. Bearing in mind he is 17h m/w, it was tie his legs together or risk him going through the floor or turning the trailer.  

Its really not that savage, its not like they can't move in them, you can tie them loose enough so they can move about just not wave legs.  

I travelled him in them for half a dozen trips and it broke the cycle and have never had to use them since.  He only ever did it on the way home, guessing it was always just cos his blood was up and he was just feeling a bit wired?


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## flyingfeet (19 December 2011)

Hobbles are a lost art in the UK 

I have upper front leg and lower hobbles - all of mine get hobble trained 

They are all started in a big arena in a safe environment. I also had to buy the hobbles from america as the UK ones are rubbish 

So as to the why: 
It teaches the horses they are some things you cannot get away from and you need to place reliance on your human

Horses that get tangled up in fences and panic are the ones with hefty vets bills, a hobble trained horse feels the restriction, accepts it and waits for a human to fix the problem

In Australia training is still prevalent as farms are so big, as horse that panics and rips itself open if it gets stuck is a dead one

Good front leg hobbles:






Upper leg hobbles:






One leg hobble (your farrier will thank you for this one, as teaches them to balance on 3 legs)


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## flyingfeet (19 December 2011)

Twilkolock said:



			Spotted cat - (hobbling whilst travelling) there is a line of thought that says that pawing/kicking, as you describe, is a symptom of anxiety. It's interesting that he does this when approaching an event/show. A horse doesn't need to be Einstein to learn that simple changes such as change of gear and slowing down whilst travelling equates/means shows at the end of it. From a equine psychology point of view a horse shows these symptoms when it feels conflict - often in its ridden work, such as stimultenous rein/leg pressure. I'd rather get to the bottom of the behaviour than whack hobbles on, but that's just me!
		
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I like to have long conversations with my horse, but no amount of psychology therapy worked when he decided that if he was 20 minutes from home he would start pawing in the lorry or trailer

I'm sure it was a deeply rooted emotional problem, rather than him just being impatient about getting home (I want to know how he knew on different routes and journey times he was 20 mins from home too... ) 

For what its worth I didn't hobble him, but did have to buy a thicker rubber mat for my 'special' boy! If I had one do this again, I'd probably would hobble them as its a dreadful habit, and got rather expensive


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## Twilkolock (19 December 2011)

"place reliance on your human..........waits for a human to fix the problem"

Scientifically speaking, you are imbuing the horse with abilities and intelligence is simply doesn't have. There is not one scientific study that a) has shown that the horse is able to conceptualise humans in this way, b) has that level of intelligence whereby it can problem solve to such a high level (wait for a human to fix the problem, etc.)

Hobbles simply immobilise the feet which in turn diminishes/removes the flight response. The flight response can be easily supressed through correct training/schooling.


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## stilltrying (19 December 2011)

Twilkolock said:



			"place reliance on your human..........waits for a human to fix the problem"

Scientifically speaking, you are imbuing the horse with abilities and intelligence is simply doesn't have. There is not one scientific study that a) has shown that the horse is able to conceptualise humans in this way, b) has that level of intelligence whereby it can problem solve to such a high level (wait for a human to fix the problem, etc.)

Hobbles simply immobilise the feet which in turn diminishes/removes the flight response. The flight response can be easily supressed through correct training/schooling.
		
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How would you train/school a horse not to try and dig its way out of a trailer?


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## Twilkolock (19 December 2011)

Jen_Cots..... I am sorry that you appear to have misinterpret what I've said and that you've tried talking to your horse and used 'psychology therapy'. Obviously, it's nothing to do with horses. May I suggest you read Andrew McLeans "Equitation Science" to get the basics.


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## flyingfeet (19 December 2011)

Twilkolock said:



			Hobbles simply immobilise the feet which in turn diminishes/removes the flight response. The flight response can be easily supressed through correct training/schooling.
		
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Yes and the correct training and schooling involves hobbles!!

Some already come prewired to think the situation through and decide not to panic, others have full on flight response. I can hobble train a horse in around 10 minutes usually, how long does it take you?


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## Mince Pie (19 December 2011)

Twilkolock said:



			"place reliance on your human..........waits for a human to fix the problem"

Scientifically speaking, you are imbuing the horse with abilities and intelligence is simply doesn't have. There is not one scientific study that a) has shown that the horse is able to conceptualise humans in this way, b) has that level of intelligence whereby it can problem solve to such a high level (wait for a human to fix the problem, etc.)

Hobbles simply immobilise the feet which in turn diminishes/removes the flight response. The flight response can be easily supressed through correct training/schooling.
		
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Really, but we do that in many different ways all the time:

*trust the human that this ditch does not contain a horse eating monster.
*trust the human that you will not drown in this puddle.
*trust the human that this loud noisy thing will only cut your hair and not you.
*trust the human that this loud rustly thing on your back is not a predator.
*trust the human that this smoking metal thing will not burn your feet.

Need I go on?





I have never hobbled but have never had the need to.


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## Twilkolock (19 December 2011)

I'd start by trying to break down the behaviour as not one answer will fit all. When, where, what behaviour etc, in order to determine whethers it's fear, annoyance, habit etc, that causing it? 

Does the horse kick in the trailer? Kicking out is usually seen as threatening behaviour to warn off competitors for food, etc, and kicking can occur when the horse percieves its in a stressful environment (I think a trailer is a pretty scary environment for a horse.) It can become a habit reaction to annoyance at being stressed while travelling. These behaviours become learnt/habit as they're reinforcing (you may have stopped when she/he kicked.) 

Some horses kick at fixed objects to make a noise because it generally gets a reaction and may even remove what's stressful/annoying (ie, you've stopped or taken her out, perhaps.) So, if you cover the trailer surfaces with thick rubber matting (to include all sides, etc) it may reduce the noise and prevent injury. What about a calm companion? Lots of hay? Any toys that could be hung up? Anything that reduces the stress, keeps her entertained and calm.


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## stilltrying (19 December 2011)

Twilkolock said:



			I'd start by trying to break down the behaviour as not one answer will fit all. When, where, what behaviour etc, in order to determine whethers it's fear, annoyance, habit etc, that causing it? 

Does the horse kick in the trailer? Kicking out is usually seen as threatening behaviour to warn off competitors for food, etc, and kicking can occur when the horse percieves its in a stressful environment (I think a trailer is a pretty scary environment for a horse.) It can become a habit reaction to annoyance at being stressed while travelling. These behaviours become learnt/habit as they're reinforcing (you may have stopped when she/he kicked.) 

Some horses kick at fixed objects to make a noise because it generally gets a reaction and may even remove what's stressful/annoying (ie, you've stopped or taken her out, perhaps.) So, if you cover the trailer surfaces with thick rubber matting (to include all sides, etc) it may reduce the noise and prevent injury. What about a calm companion? Lots of hay? Any toys that could be hung up? Anything that reduces the stress, keeps her entertained and calm.
		
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Only used to paw at the floor in trailer when moving, when on the way home, never on way there, and only when alone. Never kicked out with back legs just lots of bashing with front legs.  Always had plenty to eat, tried a trailer mirror for 'company'.  Trailer had rubber matting on walls and floor.  Didn't want to stop as didn't want horse to think pawing = stopping.  Think i pulled over once as i though he was going to turn the car.  I opened the jockey door and he was there ears pricked, one hind leg resting looking chilled as anything!  

For our safety i chose to hobble him, it broke the cycle (assuming it was habbit) and that was about 4 or 5 years ago.  He's never done it since. 

I really dont see the issue, just like you would tie a horse up so it can't wander off...i tied his legs together so he knew he couldn't wave them in the air.


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## Twilkolock (19 December 2011)

Mince pie....._"*trust the human that this ditch does not contain a horse eating monster.
*trust the human that you will not drown in this puddle.
*trust the human that this loud noisy thing will only cut your hair and not you.
*trust the human that this loud rustly thing on your back is not a predator.
*trust the human that this smoking metal thing will not burn your feet."_

In my opinion it isn't 'trust' that the horse is showing but rather 'learnt responses'. Through negative reinforcement, positive reinforcement, trial and error learning, and classial conditioning, the environment shapes what a horse learns and thus its behaviour. Humans behavious is shaped like this too.

Horses really have only a limited capacity to problem solve (that's why their feet do the talking to take flight) and trust is a word I would apply to humans rather than horses. Horses simply respond to their environment based upon how they have experienced it. 

Learning through negative reinforcement is really subtle and most of us are not aware of when it's taking place (for humans and animals alike.) You mentioned clipping....everytime the horse throws it's head up and removes the hand/clipper is it rewarded and motivated to repeat the behaviour because the unpleasant stimulus has been removed. If the person keeps the clipper in place for just a fraction longer and doesn't 'reward' the head tossing [and then removes the clipper when the head is still even if it's just for a split second as timing is crucial] the horse has learnt that their head tossing behaviour is not rewarding. I wouldn't call this trust therefore, - I would call this a learnt response.


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## Twilkolock (19 December 2011)

I guess it depends upon what type of behaviour you want to tackle.

Immobilizing the feet [to stop the flight response] can take minutes if you've got a long rope and a long whip handy.
Counter-conditioning to 'un learn' a fixed behaviour can take days.
Desensitization can take longer if you're trying to overcome the fear response.

One of my concerns with hobbles is that it can provoke an extreme fear response which is then hard to get rid of. However, I do accept that you use it with success so we may have to agree to disagree!


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## Brandy (19 December 2011)

I haven't used them on any of mine but it was fairly common practice at a dressage yard I worked at. We had a young stallion - and he used to jump out, he was only turned out once a week (yes I know....) and it was a half mile walk down the track to the field. I would either have to put the hobbles on in the stable, and lead him out in them - not a great idea....

OR!!!!

Lead him out, then try and get the hobbles on before letting him go. Hmm. 

Still didn;t stop him jumping out, he cost the owners a bloody fortune and I used to stand there crapping myself as he cantered round the four fields hopping over fences merrily......

My welsh kicks the ramp of the trailer sometimes when travelling. I just should out of the window at him.


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## only_me (19 December 2011)

Twilkolock said:



			Does the horse kick in the trailer? Kicking out is usually seen as threatening behaviour to warn off competitors for food, etc, and kicking can occur when the horse percieves its in a stressful environment (I think a trailer is a pretty scary environment for a horse.) It can become a habit reaction to annoyance at being stressed while travelling. These behaviours become learnt/habit as they're reinforcing (you may have stopped when she/he kicked.) 

Some horses kick at fixed objects to make a noise because it generally gets a reaction and may even remove what's stressful/annoying (ie, you've stopped or taken her out, perhaps.) So, if you cover the trailer surfaces with thick rubber matting (to include all sides, etc) it may reduce the noise and prevent injury. What about a calm companion? Lots of hay? Any toys that could be hung up? Anything that reduces the stress, keeps her entertained and calm.
		
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Sorry but LOL 

My last horse was a right pain in the butt when standing at a show. He would paw and paw due to bordem. He always had a haynet when stood tied in lorry. There is no way I am going to buy or borrow a companion pony to travel with as tbh then horse would become reliant on the companion to travel which is also a right pain in the butt and wouldn't want him to have seperation anxiety from when I take horse out to ride and leave companion on lorry!!The lorry was all rubber btw, from the half wall down and floor. I think he liked the noise!!

Have tried other methods of re-training but not very easy when trying to catch them in a confined space. So hobbles are a good and effective way of preventing the pawing when stood on lorry at event. Problem solved - and this horse was no where near stressed/psycholocically damaged just bored! 

My horse atm doesn't paw. He just likes to chew the windows/bars/rope/headcollar. He does this for fun, he chews ropes/headcollars/reins/anything within reach in the yard at home. He has a special rope for twirling in his field. 

Hobbles are a good method of preventing unwanted behavior, like it or not horses are dangerous animals (especially when stressed) and hobbles can make the situation safer. I only use them when necessary, but are excellent when used appropriately. And I "speak" to my horse too, through a communicator, to try to find out what is wrong - but still use hobbles if necessary!


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## flyingfeet (19 December 2011)

Twilkolock said:



			Immobilizing the feet [to stop the flight response] can take minutes if you've got a long rope and a long whip handy.
		
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Why on earth would a whip be used when hobble training? I not sure if you really understand this, and you seem to be making a lot of assumption and unfortunately you sound a bit airy fairy in your approach to horse training. Yes most consistent training methods work to some degree, but some work faster because they are clearer to the horse. 

Whips are not used or needed during hobble training, as all you want the horse to learn is where there feet are and that a restraint won't kill them

Most well adjusted horses - you put the hobbles on, they look at you and say yup my feet are tied together I cannot move. You then lead them around so they learn to walk in hobbles, which is great for getting a horse to think about their feet. 

The flighty horse, may rear and panic initially, until they work out it doesn't hurt and how to move their legs 

All should be done preferably with a 3m lead or lunge line 

A great Australian says "Train a horse to hobbles and they will be safe the rest of their life"

This guys speaks a lot of common sense, video shows a top leg hobble
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hhLI3ml1EMc

Edited to add - this video is talking about horse psychology and the effect hobbles have.


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## Twilkolock (19 December 2011)

Jen_cots   _"Why on earth would a whip be used when hobble training? I not sure if you really understand this, and you seem to be making a lot of assumption and unfortunately you sound a bit airy fairy in your approach to horse training. Yes most consistent training methods work to some degree, but some work faster because they are clearer to the horse. "_

Indeed, I could say "why on earth"......why on earth would I use a whip with hobbles when I don't even advocate using hobbles? Where in my text did I state using a whip with hobbles? I don't advocate the use of hobbles!! Again, I'm sorry you've misunderstood and seem not to understand. 

The video you cited is not 'horse psychology" in my opinion. It does not use a scientific approach or draw upon psychological and/or equine science [regarding how horses learn and their behaviour] and I would not be interested in following or advocating this approach. 

I advocate using Dr Andrew McClean's approach who is based in Australia at the Australian Equine Behavioural Centre who uses the science of Learning Theory to train horses. He uses not only the historial evidence of Skinner and Pavlov etc, regarding negative/positive reinforcement and classical conditioning but also uses comtemporary research findings concerning animal/equine cognition. In my opinion this approach is simply revolutionary, ethical and because it has the weight of scientific research behind it, more concrete than other methods. Unfortunately, however, as the horse industry is so backward people simply can't get their heads around it and I think this debate is an illustration of this.

To quote Dr McClean he states that hobbles (I'm paraphrasing), "_retard a horses progress....and used for horses that habitually kick or strike....However, these problems are typical manifestations of in-hand problems with 'stop and 'go'._ (His approach breaks the horses responses and training into 'go', 'stop', 'turn' and 'yeild'.) 

The website is: www.aebc.com.au where they provide definitions of 'negative/positive reinforcement' and so on. 

They also have a Youtube site but as they produce DVD's there aren't really any decent videos that illustrate their approach. They do however, show a video of a horse that was headshy and the bridle couldn't be put on (similar to your guy) - and there isn't a hobble in sight!!


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## Twilkolock (19 December 2011)

Actually, I misquoted Andrew as he stated that _"hobbles are also used for horses that habitually strike or kick during travelling"_. Couldn't put that into my last post.


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## vixann (19 December 2011)

pro hobbles


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## Luci07 (19 December 2011)

They have their place. Was thinking of using them on my big baby thug who thought it was alright to push his luck and kick out. Have solved the problem by sending him out hunting with someone who won't tolerate bad manners. Have seen them used to break a cycle of behaviour and that worked too.


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## jinglejoys (19 December 2011)

Picasso was hobbled in Spain before I bought him


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## poglet1991 (19 December 2011)

i am against them, thouggh i am biased. my mare has a huge scar round one of her hind legs from hobbling


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## Dolcé (19 December 2011)

Jen_Cots said:



			Hobbles are a lost art in the UK 

I have upper front leg and lower hobbles - all of mine get hobble trained 

They are all started in a big arena in a safe environment. I also had to buy the hobbles from america as the UK ones are rubbish 

So as to the why: 
It teaches the horses they are some things you cannot get away from and you need to place reliance on your human

Horses that get tangled up in fences and panic are the ones with hefty vets bills, a hobble trained horse feels the restriction, accepts it and waits for a human to fix the problem

In Australia training is still prevalent as farms are so big, as horse that panics and rips itself open if it gets stuck is a dead one

Good front leg hobbles:






Upper leg hobbles:






One leg hobble (your farrier will thank you for this one, as teaches them to balance on 3 legs) 





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Jen_Cots, is there anywhere over here that does training for this?  I was looking into this last year but couldn't find anywhere, after looking at the aussie sites about it I was convinced it is something that would be a benefit in so many ways.


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## Holly Hocks (19 December 2011)

I'm with Twilkolock on this one - I wouldn't use hobbles - in fact I hadn't heard of them for ages since this thread - I thought they'd gone out with the Ark!


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## el_Snowflakes (19 December 2011)

No, I personally find them disgusting


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## Dolcé (19 December 2011)

elsazzo said:



			No, I personally find them disgusting 

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I suppose it depends on how/why they are used.  I must admit it is not something I would have entertained until I saw the Australian websites about it, can't remember the guy's name.  I like the idea that your horse will not panic and tear itself to pieces if it gets caught up anywhere because it has been trained not to fight to escape.  We had one badly damaged on barbed wire and it isn't something I would ever want to deal with again.  I wouldn't want to 'use' them as such, just have the horses trained to them.


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## jaquelin (20 December 2011)

Interesting point made about horses pawing in trailer and also incapable of standing still.  Just finished with one like that tonight, and my instructor was working on getting the horse to understand "halt".  Horse had never been trained to halt,  Same horse pawed in the trailer.  I just wonder if he starts to understand it is ok to halt, also ok to stand still in trailer.....


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## awesomebydesign (20 December 2011)

I would never personally use them, however if they are used correctly in the right situation, I don't have a problem with that.


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## jeeve (20 December 2011)

My son bought a clydie/TB cross. She is used to being hobbled, and he has a pair of hobbles that the fellow he bought the mare off made. 

He uses them when worming or similar, as she can get silly, but with hobbles on she stands immediately and just accepts the wormer.

I also agree that hobbles help teach a horse not to struggle if caught in a fence etc

Like all things it is more the handler, than the tool that is the issue.

I would not like to see a horse hobbled when travellimg as could see them having trouble keeping their balance


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## Enfys (20 December 2011)

Twilkolock said:



			"place reliance on your human..........waits for a human to fix the problem"

Scientifically speaking, you are imbuing the horse with abilities and intelligence is simply doesn't have. There is not one scientific study that a) has shown that the horse is able to conceptualise humans in this way, b) has that level of intelligence whereby it can problem solve to such a high level (wait for a human to fix the problem, etc.)

Hobbles simply immobilise the feet which in turn diminishes/removes the flight response. The flight response can be easily supressed through correct training/schooling.
		
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Nurture over nature. Precisely.

Horses should be trained to accept restriction, be that hobbles, trailing ropes, etc, etc, and believe me, a horse properly trained to accept restrictions around their legs jolly well _*will*_ stand and wait if they become entangled in something.


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## SpottedCat (20 December 2011)

Twilkolock said:



			Spotted cat - (hobbling whilst travelling) there is a line of thought that says that pawing/kicking, as you describe, is a symptom of anxiety. It's interesting that he does this when approaching an event/show. A horse doesn't need to be Einstein to learn that simple changes such as change of gear and slowing down whilst travelling equates/means shows at the end of it. From a equine psychology point of view a horse shows these symptoms when it feels conflict - often in its ridden work, such as stimultenous rein/leg pressure. I'd rather get to the bottom of the behaviour than whack hobbles on, but that's just me!
		
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He's a horse that's evented to intermediate, who loves his job and who will, if turned free in a field with jumps in, jump them of his own accord. Are you seriously telling me that he is anything other than impatient when he approaches his destination? I pretty often change gear, slow down, stop at traffic lights, pull into petrol stations, go wrong and stop to check the map....none of these make him kick, so I do not think that's the trigger somehow. It is arriving at a showground or at home (the latter presumably being the place he feels least stressed, no?) which makes him kick. I don't think he feels much conflict/anxiety when arriving home = off the box, feed, in the field to relax. 

FWIW I have tried any number of approaches to stop him kicking, nothing works except the hobbles, and I reckon it is far less dangerous to have him unable to kick than it is to have the partition come crashing down on him, but maybe that's just me. If you want to come and 'fix' him, you have an open invitation - as long as you're prepared to pay for any damage to the lorry (or him) whilst you analyse him!


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## SpottedCat (20 December 2011)

jeeve said:



			I would not like to see a horse hobbled when travellimg as could see them having trouble keeping their balance
		
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Not if they are fitted correctly it doesn't - you're not tying their feet right next to each other after all! Mine can still spread his back legs, and has absolutely no issues standing up in them. There is a lot of adjustment in a decent set of hobbles.


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## Jesstickle (20 December 2011)

Hmm. Interesting....

I  haven't ever used them, never even considered them but they sound like a genuine possibility for my knobber who won't be clipped without trying to kill you (and no, he isn't scared of clippers he's just an impatient knob) rather than filling him full of ACP every time. 

I am off to investigate. Thanks all


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## Wagtail (20 December 2011)

This is a very interesting thread, especially the use of hobbles in training horses to accept restriction. I have therefore changed my view about the use of them.


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## flyingfeet (20 December 2011)

Ok I'll try and address everyone here: 

*elsazzo* - please quantify disgusting; what we are discussing here is the use of them as correction and training tool, generally speaking the horse would never wear them for more than 30 mins

*Festive Frilly Stockings* - I don't know of anyone using them here, I bought the horse problems leg restraints DVD as I had a very flighty badly schooled polo pony to fix and this has really worked for me 

*poglet1991* - I'm guessing yours if they have a scar was done with rope

*jinglejoys* - that is definitely a rope scar, look at the narrow width. Under no circumstances would I ever use rope round the legs of any of my horses. 
As we all know rope burns and even mild movements can cause the rope to tighten if the knots are incorrect. 

No one should ever use make shift hobbles, you need the right kit. I notice there are some you tube videos showing people using rope, and I would like to make it clear that this is a seriously bad idea!  

*Twilkolock* I still not sure McClean disagrees with all use of hobbles, but I haven't read a lot from the website. I haven't used them travelling because I cannot control the environment i.e. If I stop suddenly due to other road users. However I may use them in training at home or stationery if required. 

Restraint is taught from the minute you put a halter on a horse, you are restraining them from their head and expecting them to work with you. Ultimately most people expect their horses to tie up, as its only practical and this is using a restraint on their head. 

Now I am only advocating the use of good quality hobbles as a training aid, not something I would leave on unsupervised or use without training the horse first.

If you watch that you tube video, its showing a headshy horse being trained with hobbles, because ultimately a horse that has learnt an evasion needs to be retrained and this system (which won't fix everything!) does train a horse that there are some things you cannot evade and they learn acceptance, not through pain, not through force, not through flapping and it lets them think things through.


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## SpottedCat (20 December 2011)

Wagtail - I think that's a HHO first - someone reading an emotive thread and changing their mind, thanks for posting. I have to say when my chap was wearing the fence round his back legs last week I was incredibly glad he'd been hobble trained - otherwise I suspect I'd have had either a large vets bill, or a large fencing bill!


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## FanyDuChamp (20 December 2011)

Wagtail said:



			This is a very interesting thread, especially the use of hobbles in training horses to accept restriction. I have therefore changed my view about the use of them.
		
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When I started this thread I had no idea it would be so controversial. As I said they were used a lot when I was young but don't seem to use them so much now. I agree with Wagtail, I have had my eyes opened about them.

Now off to start a thread on tethering! Only kidding!
FDC


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## el_Snowflakes (20 December 2011)

Jen_Cots said:



			Ok I'll try and address everyone here: 

*elsazzo* - please quantify disgusting; what we are discussing here is the use of them as correction and training tool, generally speaking the horse would never wear them for more than 30 mins

*Festive Frilly Stockings* - I don't know of anyone using them here, I bought the horse problems leg restraints DVD as I had a very flighty badly schooled polo pony to fix and this has really worked for me 

*poglet1991* - I'm guessing yours if they have a scar was done with rope

*jinglejoys* - that is definitely a rope scar, look at the narrow width. Under no circumstances would I ever use rope round the legs of any of my horses. 
As we all know rope burns and even mild movements can cause the rope to tighten if the knots are incorrect. 

No one should ever use make shift hobbles, you need the right kit. I notice there are some you tube videos showing people using rope, and I would like to make it clear that this is a seriously bad idea!  

*Twilkolock* I still not sure McClean disagrees with all use of hobbles, but I haven't read a lot from the website. I haven't used them travelling because I cannot control the environment i.e. If I stop suddenly due to other road users. However I may use them in training at home or stationery if required. 

Restraint is taught from the minute you put a halter on a horse, you are restraining them from their head and expecting them to work with you. Ultimately most people expect their horses to tie up, as its only practical and this is using a restraint on their head. 

Now I am only advocating the use of good quality hobbles as a training aid, not something I would leave on unsupervised or use without training the horse first.

If you watch that you tube video, its showing a headshy horse being trained with hobbles, because ultimately a horse that has learnt an evasion needs to be retrained and this system (which won't fix everything!) does train a horse that there are some things you cannot evade and they learn acceptance, not through pain, not through force, not through flapping and it lets them think things through.
		
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Not sure why you want me to explain the term 'disgusting' to you. The OP asked 'would you use them?' so thats what I answered beause I don't agree with them at all.


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## ironhorse (20 December 2011)

Jen_Cots said:



			Ok I'll try and address everyone here: 

[*Festive Frilly Stockings* - I don't know of anyone using them here, I bought the horse problems leg restraints DVD as I had a very flighty badly schooled polo pony to fix and this has really worked for me 
No one should ever use make shift hobbles, you need the right kit. I notice there are some you tube videos showing people using rope, and I would like to make it clear that this is a seriously bad idea!  


Echo the point about the right hobbles and about being shown properly how to train a horse to them. Done right...very effective. Done wrong, even properly made hobbles can cause soreness. Some of the western trainers use them over here...pm me if you want a contact, Festive Frilly Stockings.
		
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## flyingfeet (20 December 2011)

elsazzo said:



			Not sure why you want me to explain the term 'disgusting' to you. The OP asked 'would you use them?' so thats what I answered beause I don't agree with them at all.
		
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I asked you to quantify = explain why you feel this way?
Do you think a headcollar, hackamore or a bitted bridle is "disgusting"? 
Sounds like an emotional answer, so I want you to explain your reasoning?


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## scrunchie (20 December 2011)

This thread is certainly food for thought.

I'd never given hobbles much thought before.


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## Wagtail (20 December 2011)

Wagtail said:



			This is a very interesting thread, especially the use of hobbles in training horses to accept restriction. I have therefore changed my view about the use of them.
		
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SpottedCat said:



			Wagtail - I think that's a HHO first - someone reading an emotive thread and changing their mind, thanks for posting. I have to say when my chap was wearing the fence round his back legs last week I was incredibly glad he'd been hobble trained - otherwise I suspect I'd have had either a large vets bill, or a large fencing bill!
		
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I never have any qualms about admitting my view point has been swayed. It doesn't often happen but in this instance posters have made me see another side to something I had previously dismissed as cruel. Glad your horse was okay.


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## SpottedCat (20 December 2011)

Wagtail said:



			I never have any qualms about admitting my view point has been swayed. It doesn't often happen but in this instance posters have made me see another side to something I had previously dismissed as cruel. Glad your horse was okay. 

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Considering the vet's receptionist recognises my voice at the moment, so was I! Hats off to you - most people would rather chew their own arm off than admit they've changed their mind about something like this  Normally I don't bother posting about this kind of thing as I know I'll be vilified, so it's nice to know there are some open-minded people out there.


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## flyingfeet (20 December 2011)

Well to be honest I've never knew much about hobbles until 2011, but I have experienced first hand horses ripping their legs open (to the point we wondered whether it would ever heal!). And heard lots of other wire / fence other horror stories where a horse has struggled and caused huge amounts of damage. 

Now I'm not saying that hobbles will 100% prevent accidents as bolting or falling into things is not entirely preventable, but I'm hoping with hobbles the horse has gained the sense to feel restriction and wait rather than flap and damage themselves 

I learnt from youtube and buying a DVD, I'd rather have learned from professional, but at least today information is at your fingertips!


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## Spring Feather (20 December 2011)

Blitzenfys said:



			Nurture over nature. Precisely.

Horses should be trained to accept restriction, be that hobbles, trailing ropes, etc, etc, and believe me, a horse properly trained to accept restrictions around their legs jolly well _*will*_ stand and wait if they become entangled in something.
		
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This!  This exactly.


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## Spring Feather (20 December 2011)

Incidentally I don't use hobbles but I do use long nylon ropes attached to unbreakable headcollars.  They do a similar job in teaching the horse not to panic when restricted.


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## el_Snowflakes (20 December 2011)

Jen_Cots said:



			I asked you to quantify = explain why you feel this way?
Do you think a headcollar, hackamore or a bitted bridle is "disgusting"? 
Sounds like an emotional answer, so I want you to explain your reasoning?
		
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I dont like the idea of tying a horses legs together. Thats reason enough for me.


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## Enfys (20 December 2011)

Spring Feather said:



			Incidentally I don't use hobbles but I do use long nylon ropes attached to unbreakable headcollars.  They do a similar job in teaching the horse not to panic when restricted.
		
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How do you use them? 

Until I came to North America I had very set views on trailing ropes, hobbles, tying up blah, blah, blah, talk about tunnel vision (Thanks, in part, for that BHS) more than one road to Rome and all that  

The horse scene here has been, and always will be, a huge learning curve for me, but I have seriously reviewed and completely backtracked on several things that I had always discounted as borderline cruelty and would never have considered before. To me now, they are quite logical.

*Take ropes on headcollars*. 
I leave long, thick cotton ropes on headcollars of youngstock in the roundpen... Horse steps on the rope and can't move, pulls head up, that doesn't help, puts head down - Oh look, pressure removed! Move foot off rope, that works too  Lesson learned, a rope is not going to eat you, and if you put your head down and pick up your foot you can move again. 

I also loop ropes in a figure of eight, around neck and above hocks, and let the babies work it out for themselves in the stall with the mare there. They go "   " and either have a mad couple of seconds until Mom bites them for being stupid, stand stock still and think about it, or take absolutely no notice at all - whatever they do, the end result is the same, a colt that won't chuck a hissy fit at a later date when he's being lunged etc.


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## Archina (20 December 2011)

This thread actually scares me. I would never use hobbles and seriously thought (and hoped) that they were an outdated method of restraining horses. 

I worked over in Ireland for a while at a stud farm and the owner used hobbles, one day he was covering a mare who was hobbled so as not to kick the stallion and a car crashed into the wall of the yard (yard was walled and gated off from a semi busy road). Well stallion freaked and bolted back to his stable, the mare on the other hand broke her leg when she spooked as her flight response took over everything. 

So i really cant see any justifiable way of using hobbles when we have so many safer methods. The poor mare would have still be alive if she wasnt wearing them. 

Its all well and good to say the horse is trained to stand when wearing them but god forbid if something does happen and the horse bolts and it forgets its wearing them.


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## Spring Feather (20 December 2011)

Blitzenfys said:



			How do you use them? 

I leave long, thick cotton ropes on headcollars of youngstock in the roundpen... Horse steps on the rope and can't move, pulls head up, that doesn't help, puts head down - Oh look, pressure removed! Move foot off rope, that works too  Lesson learned, a rope is not going to eat you, and if you put your head down and pick up your foot you can move again.
		
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I do the same as you  




			I also loop ropes in a figure of eight, around neck and above hocks, and let the babies work it out for themselves in the stall with the mare there. They go "   " and either have a mad couple of seconds until Mom bites them for being stupid, stand stock still and think about it, or take absolutely no notice at all - whatever they do, the end result is the same, a colt that won't chuck a hissy fit at a later date when he's being lunged etc.
		
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 This is how I teach my youngsters to lead.  Seems our training methods are not poles apart


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## Spring Feather (20 December 2011)

Archina said:



			So i really cant see any justifiable way of using hobbles when we have so many safer methods.
		
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What are they?  I'm always interested in other peoples methods.  How do _you_ teach horses not to panic when they are leg/head/body restrained?


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## el_Snowflakes (20 December 2011)

Archina said:



			This thread actually scares me. I would never use hobbles and seriously thought (and hoped) that they were an outdated method of restraining horses. 

I worked over in Ireland for a while at a stud farm and the owner used hobbles, one day he was covering a mare who was hobbled so as not to kick the stallion and a car crashed into the wall of the yard (yard was walled and gated off from a semi busy road). Well stallion freaked and bolted back to his stable, the mare on the other hand broke her leg when she spooked as her flight response took over everything. 

So i really cant see any justifiable way of using hobbles when we have so many safer methods. The poor mare would have still be alive if she wasnt wearing them. 

Its all well and good to say the horse is trained to stand when wearing them but god forbid if something does happen and the horse bolts and it forgets its wearing them. 

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Agree with you on this one Archina. Tying a horses legs together does not stop a horse from having a flight response! I find it quite ridiculous and cannot actually believe there are people out there who would use them on their horses. If anyone came near my mare with one of those contraptions they would end up wearing it themseves! Im on a considerably large yard and none of our horses have ever been 'hobbled' and Im not sure our YO would be very happy about the use of them on the yard. To even try to compare the use of such contraptions with using headcollars etc...Please?! that's like saying 'you wear a tie so you won't mind having a noose around your neck then?' :O I would like somebody to inform me....what happens if the horse gets a serious fright? bolts? loses their balance??! :O:O Seriously, horses do so much for us and we put them through so much which is 'unnatural' to them. I think they deserve so much more than having their legs tied together to make life easier for us. We all have to draw the line somewhere this is where I draw mine.


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## Twilkolock (20 December 2011)

*Twilkolock* I still not sure McClean disagrees with all use of hobbles, but I haven't read a lot from the website.
		
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Right this is what Dr McClean has to say about hobbles....In my opinion this is not a training method but rather the science behind why horse behave in the way they do. I don&#8217;t want to sound like an essay but thought it was important to provide these quotes because you stated that you&#8217;re not sure what McClean&#8217;s position on hobbles was.

_&#8220;Among veterinarian professionals, physical restraint of horses (ie, hobbles) during painful procedures is often possible but rarely preferable to chemical restraint&#8221;

&#8220;When increased restraint is required, it sometimes takes the forms of hobbles....but these dubious techniques should be seen as emergency measures rather than routine approaches.&#8221;

&#8220;The danger of horses fighting against physical restraint by blindly paddling their limbs in pursuit of freedom means that hobbles...as a means of restraint should be avoided wherever possible&#8221;. 

Restraining techniques &#8220;have been superseded by chemical agents since there is no justification for allowing horses to fight against physical restraint when there is no evidence that they can predict that the episode will end. If, during a handling procedure, a horse is not likely to learn good associations with personnel, then we should avoid it learning anything. The use of OVERSHADOWING techniques to reduce fearful responses to.....farriery, clipping...has tremendous promise in skilled hands.&#8221;

&#8220;The extent to which the horse undergoes LEARNED HELPLESNESS [with hindlimb restraint] is worth considering. In general it is better to apply LEARNING THEORY than brute force.....the preferred approach to hindleg sensitivity is to habituate...to touch&#8221;  

&#8220;Good handling should place the horse under stimulus control (on the aids) and remove the need for the horse to learn the &#8216;hard way&#8217;&#8221;. T_hose quotes are all from his book: Equitation Science.




			Restraint is taught from the minute you put a halter on a horse, you are restraining them from their head and expecting them to work with you. Ultimately most people expect their horses to tie up, as its only practical and this is using a restraint on their head.
		
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You mention that from the moment we put a halter on we&#8217;re restraining the horse &#8211; we aren&#8217;t  - we&#8217;re teaching the horse about pressure and release. We&#8217;re teaching that the removal of the pressure rewards the horse for performing a certain behaviour, ie, turn, go, stop. There is no restraint involved only pressure and release. It makes me concerned that you think it's restraint. Typically horses that have problems being tied up have experienced one of the scenario's above.

We train horses primarily [and unavoidably] using NEGATIVE REINFORCEMENT. This is where an unpleasant stimulus is removed to increase the likelihood of a desired behaviour occurring again. So, rein pressure is removed to increase the likelihood of the horse stopping. The removal of the pressure motivates the horse to stop. The horse learns that stopping produces relief from pressure. Leading a horse, stopping a horse, turning a horse, leg aids, etc, all work in the same way. Timing, consistency, and contiguity of negative reinforcement are key to producing well trained and calm horses which are under the control of the handler without problems. 

McClean says _&#8220;numerous handling problems are the legacy of previous mistakes in timing and consistency_.....of negative reinforcement.

I think my point is that a) many riders/owners don&#8217;t realise what a proper &#8216;stop&#8217;, &#8216;go&#8217;, &#8216;turn&#8217;, &#8216;yield&#8217; response feels/looks like (I didn&#8217;t until I went on a Learning theory clinic) and how when there are problems with these [at a basic level] it can have such a knock on effect further down the line or in other areas. These are like the foundations upon which you build the rest of the work. Therefore, when problems do arise (clipping, loading, farrier, travelling,etc) it reverts back to the lack of foundations.




			there are some things you cannot evade.............. and it lets them think things through.
		
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[/QUOTE]

Horses don't think things through....they merely respond to their environment.


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## flyingfeet (20 December 2011)

Archina said:



			I worked over in Ireland for a while at a stud farm and the owner used hobbles, one day he was covering a mare who was hobbled so as not to kick the stallion and a car crashed into the wall of the yard (yard was walled and gated off from a semi busy road). Well stallion freaked and bolted back to his stable, the mare on the other hand broke her leg when she spooked as her flight response took over everything. 
(
		
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This I have an issue with - many studs "use hobbles", they give the horse absolutely no training, whack them on and then have a stallion jump on the mare. 

This is akin to getting on board and unbroken horse and then wondering why the go ballistic when something sets them off. 

I'm sorry but if you do not start off with proper training in a soft surfaced enclosed space then you are asking for trouble. Studs use of hobbles is the worse possible example, they never teach the horse to walk in them and generally are on a concrete surface for part of it!


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## vixann (20 December 2011)

elsazzo said:



			To even try to compare the use of such contraptions with using headcollars etc...Please?!
		
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Headcollars can also cause accidents - horse can panic and break their necks quite easily if not trained to tie up properly - can't really see much difference.
We have seen scars on legs from incorrect use of hobbles but I think you will find if you go to an equine rescue centre you will see scars from incorrect use/fitting of headcollars??


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## flyingfeet (20 December 2011)

Twilkolock said:



			Right this is what Dr McClean has to say about hobbles....
		
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OK I assume you are talking about Dr McLean PhD etc - rather than another person 

Note that he only studies the "trained horse"
http://www.aebc.com.au/andrewmclean
"Andrew continues to coach riders and National Federations on the optimal use of learning theory for improved welfare of the *trained horse* as well as improved performance"




Twilkolock said:



_Among veterinarian professionals, physical restraint of horses (ie, hobbles) during painful procedures is often possible but rarely preferable to chemical restraint_

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_
Agreed, if you stick hobbles on, having not trained the horse then absolutely you are in for trouble and will get the horse to associate hobbles with something bad if pain is involved. 



Twilkolock said:



			The extent to which the horse undergoes LEARNED HELPLESNESS [with hindlimb restraint] is worth considering. In general it is better to apply LEARNING THEORY than brute force.....the preferred approach to hindleg sensitivity is to habituate...to touch
		
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Agreed, hindleg hobbling isn't for the faint hearted and I would always do the Monty hand on a stick to desensitize first anyway



Twilkolock said:



			You mention that from the moment we put a halter on were restraining the horse  we arent  - were teaching the horse about pressure and release. Were teaching that the removal of the pressure rewards the horse for performing a certain behaviour, ie, turn, go, stop. There is no restraint involved only pressure and release. It makes me concerned that you think it's restraint.
		
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However hobbles work on exactly the same basis they learn from self pressure and release that taking smaller steps and learning to walk in them means zero pressure from the hobble. A hobbled trained horse will never put itself under pressure 



Twilkolock said:



			Horses don't think things through....they merely respond to their environment.
		
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 That wouldn't explain horses that can open gates, and solve basic problems, I refute that they only respond to environment as some horses definitely think more than others

As far as McLean goes, there's some things I agree with an others I don't, same with Monty, Pat and all great horsemen that are sharing their knowledge

Bear in mind this is a science centre and do wonderful studies like this: http://www.aebc.com.au/news/217/
Er which appears to only prove most people use a saddle pad.... I'd have like to see pressure studies, but one persons idea of a 'scientific study' may not necessarily be anothers and there is good and bad science out there 

I encourage you to take a look at Horse Problems Australia http://www.horseproblems.com.au/Horseproblems home page.htm

No scientific qualifications, but he is used in court cases to assess the mental and physical health of horses. He is a specialist retrainer of problem horses (McLean is not) and has had 15,000 horses pass through his hands 

Now I'm not saying his word is gospel, just like I'm sure there must be elements of McLean's studies that one might question. 

However overall I am pleased that there are so many people trying to make horses lives better._


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## Twilkolock (20 December 2011)

Ha, ha, on a light hearted note.............I have to laugh..................Dr McClean....must be a freudien slip and a product of wishful imagination!! I'm off for a glass of wine but before I go I wanted to clear something up!




			Note that he only studies the "trained horse"
http://www.aebc.com.au/andrewmclean
"Andrew continues to coach riders and National Federations on the optimal use of learning theory for improved welfare of the trained horse as well as improved performance"
		
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Dr McLean does not only study the trained horse. He incorporate Ethology into his work, which researches and examines the wild horse in it's natural environment.


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## oysterbay (20 December 2011)

Very interesting discussion.

I have been involved with horses for over 45 years and all, including my childhood ponies, have either been bred by me, unbroken or very young when I acquired them and have been (generally!) very well behaved. 

Except the most recent one - an anxious soul who I bought as a 7 yr old.  He has improved, and relaxed, beyond recognition since I have had him, but now has a new trick.  If left in the lorry unattended, he sometimes lifts his front legs up, puts them on the tack locker, then panics. He does not usually show any signs of separation anxiety.

I am obviously very concerned that he may put his legs through, or otherwise hurt himself.  At present I avoid the scenario by only putting him on the back, where there is no locker. He has only done this twice and is normally so relaxed (he loads by himself, for example, and travels very well), that I am surprised he does this, but am not prepared to risk it happening again.

Hobbles have been suggested.  As he is very well balanced and can rear extremely efficiently, would hobbles work as he can lift both front legs together?  

I would be interested in others' opinions (particularly those who have used hobbles!)


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## flyingfeet (20 December 2011)

Probably not, as he lifts them as a pair and would need a side line. Far easier to put a tie ring lower down, so he cannot rear high enough to get on the tack locker (or put a hole in the roof lining)


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## Stacey6897 (20 December 2011)

I use a single hobble and leadrope to lift my horses foot so I can get him lying down without wrecking my back, but they're not easy to get hold of, out of interest, does anyone know where to get them?  Here's me getting him to lie down without the hobble, you can see why it would be useful


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## Twilkolock (20 December 2011)

Sorry, went away and couldn't then add to post... but also wanted to respond to previous poster:




			Note that he only studies the "trained horse"
http://www.aebc.com.au/andrewmclean
"Andrew continues to coach riders and National Federations on the optimal use of learning theory for improved welfare of the trained horse as well as improved performance"
		
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Dr McLean does not only study the trained horse. He incorporate Ethology into his work, which researches and examines the wild horse in it's natural environment.




			However hobbles work on exactly the same basis they learn from self pressure and release that taking smaller steps and learning to walk in them means zero pressure from the hobble. A hobbled trained horse will never put itself under pressure
		
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Hobbles do not work in the same way as I described above (handler/rider headcollar/leading etc/training.) Due to the interaction of horse and human the human/handler makes the decision regarding when to release to pressure or perhaps when not to release pressure. This timing, consistency and contiguity is crucial when producing wanted [rather than unwanted - flight/fear] behaviour in the horse. 

Due to their nature, hobbles are more likely to produce a fear response. Here, the horse cannot 'regulate' the pressure and release because the fear response is more than likely to over-ride any ability to do this. Yes, they may calm eventually but at what expense? The fear response is hard to get rid of.

Of course horses can problem solve to a certain degree but we are quick to anthropomorphise...but horses are not capable of rational thought as we are. They are fight or flight animals who are predated and this dictates all their behaviour.




			'd have like to see pressure studies, but one persons idea of a 'scientific study' may not necessarily be anothers and there is good and bad science out there
		
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Well, if you know anything about science....you'll know that 'science' is conducted using a specific rigorous procedure, starting with a hypothesis, has a control group and so on, and ends in a conclusion of the findings. This is how veterinarian science is conducted and I assume you believe your vet. This is also how Dr McLean conducts his research. If it hasn't been subjected to this investigative procedure then no, it's not science. It's pretty black and white. 

Where people are quick to criticise 'scientific research' is where is appears contradictory. This is however, is only because new research disproves older research. This however, is healthy.


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## SpruceRI (21 December 2011)

A friend of mine hobbles one of her horses at shows because he won't tie up.  She ties his headcollar to a forearm.  He can graze and walk but legging it away would be tricky.

She was brought up on a farm in Africa where all their horses were hobbled in some shape or form so that they didn't run off as the fencing was a bit iffy.  The farm dogs were left out to chase off the wildlife or so I gather, though how successful that was I don't know!


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## Archina (21 December 2011)

elsazzo said:



			Agree with you on this one Archina. Tying a horses legs together does not stop a horse from having a flight response! I find it quite ridiculous and cannot actually believe there are people out there who would use them on their horses. If anyone came near my mare with one of those contraptions they would end up wearing it themseves! Im on a considerably large yard and none of our horses have ever been 'hobbled' and Im not sure our YO would be very happy about the use of them on the yard. To even try to compare the use of such contraptions with using headcollars etc...Please?! that's like saying 'you wear a tie so you won't mind having a noose around your neck then?' :O I would like somebody to inform me....what happens if the horse gets a serious fright? bolts? loses their balance??! :O:O Seriously, horses do so much for us and we put them through so much which is 'unnatural' to them. I think they deserve so much more than having their legs tied together to make life easier for us. We all have to draw the line somewhere this is where I draw mine.
		
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Totally agree with you there! 



Jen_Cots said:



			This I have an issue with - many studs "use hobbles", they give the horse absolutely no training, whack them on and then have a stallion jump on the mare. 

This is akin to getting on board and unbroken horse and then wondering why the go ballistic when something sets them off. 

I'm sorry but if you do not start off with proper training in a soft surfaced enclosed space then you are asking for trouble. Studs use of hobbles is the worse possible example, they never teach the horse to walk in them and generally are on a concrete surface for part of it!
		
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You assume the stud didnt train there horses properly to hobbles and you assume they did there coverings on a concrete surface. Your wrong 
This mare was 11yrs old and belonged to the stud, she was well trained and used to the hobbles as was all his mares. The stud owner was in his 60's and had worked with horses all his life, he also wasnt cruel to his animals and never 'whacked' them.  The mares where also covered on an open sand surfaced area beside the yard (he had nicked the sand from his local beach way back  ) After hearing horror stories about going to work in yards over in Ireland i was actually very impressed. He taught me a lot and i respected him as a horseman even if i did disagree with a few of his methods like the hobbling. 
I have also worked for a stud in Scotland who used to hobble certain mares and they were always trained beforehand. 

I stand by my earlier statement of it being an outdated practice and would never put my own horses, or a clients horse in such a dangerous situation.


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## ISHmad (21 December 2011)

Hobbles are not something I have ever used on my horses, nor would I.


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## SpottedCat (21 December 2011)

Oysterbay - no, hobbles won't work if they raise both legs together, and in all honesty you have a solution, which is safe and works 100% of the time, so I'd use it. I had a horse which reared if left alone on the lorry but was 100% in company. Hobbles would have been of no use at all, and the solution was there so I used it. FWIW I tried everything to get this horse to stand - going on every day, feeding on there, gradually spending more time alone etc but nothing worked. I asked the advice of an Intelligent Horsemanship chap I know, and outlined everything I'd done. He said I persisted longer than he would and tried everything he would have done and as I had a safe solution I should take it. Said horse spent over 5hrs on the lorry quiet as a mouse being delivered to his new home - I just had to take my other horse for the trip!!


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## oysterbay (21 December 2011)

J_C and SC - thank you.


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## stilltrying (21 December 2011)

So are we saying that tying a flight animals legs together is unnaturalbut that tying a flight animal by the head to a wall isnt???  They are both ways of restricting movement. OK tying up a horse by the head is the norm in this country, but an untrained horse doesnt know this, yet he is taught to accept this.   Just as a horse would be trained to accept hobbles. 

As with everything, any piece of kit can be dangerous in the wrong hands.  How many times have we seen young horses heads disfigured by foal slips being left on??    And accidents can happen, as previous poster mentioned the mare sadly breaking a leg whilst wearing hobblesIve been at a competition where a horse has reared, slipped and hung itself whilst tied to a lorry.


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## el_Snowflakes (21 December 2011)

vixann said:



			Headcollars can also cause accidents - horse can panic and break their necks quite easily if not trained to tie up properly - can't really see much difference.
We have seen scars on legs from incorrect use of hobbles but I think you will find if you go to an equine rescue centre you will see scars from incorrect use/fitting of headcollars??
		
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Of all the horses I have ever known (which is quite a few!) every one of them has worn a headcollar. I have never seen scars on a horse from a headcollar (although Im sure this does happen) All our horses at the yard are tied to a piece of baler twine which would snap if the horse was to panic. A quick release knot does exactly that- releases quickly when the end of the rope is pulled. If a horse was to seriously panic with hobbles on there is no way of quick release. You are talking about the 'incorrect use/fitting of headcollars' to be cruel. Yes it is. Anything can be used as a form of torture if used incorrectly. I am talking about the use of hobbles in any form of use- I believe them to be harsh and cruel whether used 'correctly' or 'incorrectly'.


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## flyingfeet (21 December 2011)

Twilkolock said:



			Due to their nature, hobbles are more likely to produce a fear response. Here, the horse cannot 'regulate' the pressure and release because the fear response is more than likely to over-ride any ability to do this. Yes, they may calm eventually but at what expense? The fear response is hard to get rid of.
		
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Please go and have a look at that Horse Problems site - hobbles induce no more fear than a headcollar and with good handling (why also incorporates pressure and release), you should never get to the level of blind panic. 



Twilkolock said:



			Well, if you know anything about science....you'll know that 'science' is conducted using a specific rigorous procedure, starting with a hypothesis, has a control group and so on, and ends in a conclusion of the findings.
		
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 Well I have a degree in it, will that do? If you know about "science" you'll also be aware that many scientists are desperate to prove their hypothesis as if they don't then funding tends not to be that forthcoming, which is why there is a lot of science surrounding global warming that was funded only to prove it exists. 

One of my favourites was looking at GM potatoes and concluded that GM potatoes would kill you. This was a published study and jumped on by the media - what they failed to tell you was that it was a study whereby the scientist fed rats nothing but potatoes and concluded that the ones fed GM potatoes died faster. This was a) fixed and b) only proved feeding rats raw potatoes had a 100% kill rate. 

Damn lies and statistics always make everything grey


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## flyingfeet (21 December 2011)

Archina said:



			You assume the stud didnt train there horses properly to hobbles and you assume they did there coverings on a concrete surface. Your wrong 
This mare was 11yrs old and belonged to the stud, she was well trained and used to the hobbles as was all his mares.
		
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I have never heard of covering in concrete - which is not what I said in part it may as they walk the mare to the covering area

Now I have never seen a stud, put hobbles on in an area and get the mare to walk around and get used to the hobbles

Also it would depend on what type of hobbles they were using - were they suitable for the job? You never use short hobbles on the back and these are breeding hobbles: 






They can also be affixed on the hocks or above the hocks and their only function is to stop the mare kicking the stallion

Also food for thought for others:

Dr. Robert M Miller in his latest Book, 'Natural Horsemanship Explained' says the following:

"It is interesting that, while today's recreational rider often has an excessive dependency on and respect for such tools as bits, spurs and whips, they usually regard hobbles as and unnecessary and cruel device. I believe that all domestic horses should be trained to hobbles and that proper hobble training is an integral part of 'Natural Horsemanship'"
http://www.robertmmiller.com/


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## dieseldog (21 December 2011)

Archina said:



			You assume the stud didnt train there horses properly to hobbles and you assume they did there coverings on a concrete surface. Your wrong 
This mare was 11yrs old and belonged to the stud, she was well trained and used to the hobbles as was all his mares. The stud owner was in his 60's and had worked with horses all his life, he also wasnt cruel to his animals and never 'whacked' them.  The mares where also covered on an open sand surfaced area beside the yard (he had nicked the sand from his local beach way back  ) After hearing horror stories about going to work in yards over in Ireland i was actually very impressed. He taught me a lot and i respected him as a horseman even if i did disagree with a few of his methods like the hobbling. 
I have also worked for a stud in Scotland who used to hobble certain mares and they were always trained beforehand. 

I stand by my earlier statement of it being an outdated practice and would never put my own horses, or a clients horse in such a dangerous situation.
		
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So the guy had used hobbles for years with no incident and the one time a freak accident happens involving a car crashing into the wall of the stable the mare breaks her leg, I think that supports hobbles being a safe alternative if used correctly.  Maybe he shouldn't have been covering horses next to a road?

Sounds awful though and must have been terrible for you to have witnessed - can understand why you are anti hobbles after seeing that.


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## Twilkolock (21 December 2011)

There is a world of difference between hobbling a horse and tying it up by a headcollar.

From postings hobbles appear to be used for all sorts of unwanted behaviours (which in my opinion tells us more about thier owners/handlers training methods/abilities than it does the horse's nature) in order to curtail the flight response. Therefore, they are hobbled mainly when the going gets tough and owners can't control their horses, for clipping, travelling, etc.

Tying up is not used for adversive procedures or when the horse is under stress as hobbling appears to be. Tying up horses for adversive procedures such as injection, worming, etc, is also not advised. This is because they have a tendancy to fight against restraint and want to flee.

When we tie a horse up we train pressure/release (backwards/forwards) and then 'park' which is where we use pressure/release to stop the feet. Tying up is not trained whilst in a stressful situation or used to off-set the flight response as hobbling is. The horse then habituates easily to tying up (when done correctly) because there are no associations or links with fear or flight and is used for a different purpose. 

Also, there are differences due to different locations on the horse's body. Tying the horses legs (which are it's only means of escape) is different from restraining the head. Immobilizing the head produces a different response than immobilizing the feet because the head is not the primarily means of taking the horse away from whatever is threatening it. Yes, immobilizing the head can be pretty frightening too and having grown up on a farm I've immoblized cows, sheep, horses head in the past. But, that is only because these animals have no prior training in immobilizing their feet.

Hobbles belong in a gone by era when we didn't know as much about horses as we do now. Trouble is, people are not interested in learning more about how horses really learn. They want instant fixes. Such as shame.


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## el_Snowflakes (21 December 2011)

Twilkolock said:



			There is a world of difference between hobbling a horse and tying it up by a headcollar.

From postings hobbles appear to be used for all sorts of unwanted behaviours (which in my opinion tells us more about thier owners/handlers training methods/abilities than it does the horse's nature) in order to curtail the flight response. Therefore, they are hobbled mainly when the going gets tough and owners can't control their horses, for clipping, travelling, etc.

Tying up is not used for adversive procedures or when the horse is under stress as hobbling appears to be. Tying up horses for adversive procedures such as injection, worming, etc, is also not advised. This is because they have a tendancy to fight against restraint and want to flee.

When we tie a horse up we train pressure/release (backwards/forwards) and then 'park' which is where we use pressure/release to stop the feet. Tying up is not trained whilst in a stressful situation or used to off-set the flight response as hobbling is. The horse then habituates easily to tying up (when done correctly) because there are no associations or links with fear or flight and is used for a different purpose. 

Also, there are differences due to different locations on the horse's body. Tying the horses legs (which are it's only means of escape) is different from restraining the head. Immobilizing the head produces a different response than immobilizing the feet because the head is not the primarily means of taking the horse away from whatever is threatening it. Yes, immobilizing the head can be pretty frightening too and having grown up on a farm I've immoblized cows, sheep, horses head in the past. But, that is only because these animals have no prior training in immobilizing their feet.

Hobbles belong in a gone by era when we didn't know as much about horses as we do now. Trouble is, people are not interested in learning more about how horses really learn. They want instant fixes. Such as shame.
		
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well said twilkoclock


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## flyingfeet (21 December 2011)

I still think you fundamentally misunderstand the use of hobbles

Think like a horse - Rick Gore:-
Hobbles are a great tool for all horsemen. Some think hobbles are mean or cruel and if used the wrong way, I would agree. Hobbles are an advanced "sack out" technique that will give your horse confidence, enforce your leadership position, *teach pressure and release* and build trust. It *teaches horses to give to pressure* and learn to deal with being trapped. It desensitizes a horse's legs to being confined, trapped or stuck. *A hobble-trained horse is less likely to tear his leg off if he ever is caught up in wire or a fence.*

Hobbles have a long history in horse training. In the past they were used has a way to break the horse's spirit, to take the fight out of a horse and to dominate a horse. I do not use them for that and do not recommend them for that use. In the days of horseback, when most all transportation was by horse, there were not tie post or tie points everywhere. By placing hobbles on a horse, you were able to secure your horse in open areas with no trees or tie points. That way in morning, your horse would have grazed all night, but would not have travelled miles away from you and your camp site. A horse can still defend himself if hobbled and can still kick and run. If you are out riding and do not have a lead rope or place to tie a horse up and you need to relieve yourself, you can hobble your horse, take care of business while your horse snacks and relaxes

Site with videos: 
http://www.thinklikeahorse.org/index-12.html

Hopefully this help - I still think you have the misconception of use


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## Twilkolock (21 December 2011)

A horse can still defend himself if hobbled and can still kick and run.
		
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Oh my goodness me. I think this statement alone hightlights the complete numptyness of this ummm........practice!!

1. If they can still run and kick - what the hell are they on there for? So, you have to do other things [whilst they're on - which by the way, I suspect are the real aids/cues/signals that curtail the flight response] to stop this running/kicking. You may as well take the bloomin things off and get on with the other thing you're doing to stop the running/kicking!! 

2.  If horses can still run/kick, hobbles don't stop the flight response, do they? Where is the pressure that limits their flight response?

Game over for me, I'm afraid.


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## SpottedCat (21 December 2011)

Twilkolock - if I'm such a useless handler/owner I assume you will be taking me up on my (entirely genuine) offer (and associated conditions)? Pm. Me to arrange a date in the new year when you can come and solve the problem.


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## flyingfeet (21 December 2011)

Twilkolock said:



			Oh my goodness me. I think this statement alone hightlights the complete numptyness of this ummm........practice!!
		
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What he was referring to is if you use hobbles when you are camping out in the open and a mountain lion attacks your horse, it can still turn round and boot the predator 

You've taken it out of context again - if you have both head and legs, you have total control of your horse. 

Again you seem to ignore the benefits of not getting caught up in fencing - this is COMMON - more horses die of accidents in pasture than at any other time.


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## Spring Feather (21 December 2011)

Twilkolock said:



			Hobbles belong in a gone by era when we didn't know as much about horses as we do now. Trouble is, people are not interested in learning more about how horses really learn. They want instant fixes. Such as shame.
		
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No the real shame is that you live such a blinkered existence.  Keeping your ponies in tiny 5 acres pony paddocks and going on hacks along nicely tended bridleways.  The world is larger than this.  Think enormous ranches in Australia, North America, Africa, Asia, South America (all HUGE continents, each with massive equine populations compared to your teeny little country with it's globally-sparse horse population).  Hobbling is a way of life for a great many horses located in different areas of the world.  It is THE ONLY WAY in many instances for people to use horse power to work their land and tend their stock.  You are proving just how sheltered a life you lead with your ignorance of what goes on, quite normally and without fuss, in vast areas of the world, but hey Great ole Britain shouts loudest about how the rest of the world population should go about their business.  Sorry deary but the British Empire dissolved a long time ago and your airy-fairy ideals should be buried alongside it


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## el_Snowflakes (21 December 2011)

Spring Feather said:



			No the real shame is that you live such a blinkered existence.  Keeping your ponies in tiny 5 acres pony paddocks and going on hacks along nicely tended bridleways.  The world is larger than this.  Think enormous ranches in Australia, North America, Africa, Asia, South America (all HUGE continents, each with massive equine populations compared to your teeny little country with it's globally-sparse horse population).  Hobbling is a way of life for a great many horses located in different areas of the world.  It is THE ONLY WAY in many instances for people to use horse power to work their land and tend their stock.  You are proving just how sheltered a life you lead with your ignorance of what goes on, quite normally and without fuss, in vast areas of the world, but hey Great ole Britain shouts loudest about how the rest of the world population should go about their business.  Sorry deary but the British Empire dissolved a long time ago and your airy-fairy ideals should be buried alongside it 

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just.wow


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## somethingorother (21 December 2011)

I'm somehow surprised at how many people seem blind to their horses emotions. If a horse reacts violently negatively to something, why would you just stick hobbles on instead of trying to keep them happy? Lack of inventive or original thinking with some people in my opinion. Lack of understanding in others, lack of patience in some. I think they probably have their place in some emergencies, and I agree it is a good idea to -gradually- train a horse not to panic when 'stuck'

But I think using them routinely is lazy 'training', using them for petty reasons such as clipping or mane pulling is not only lazy but unfair. Unhappy horse made even more unhappy for no reason. 

I would also not support the method of hobble training described a few pages back, stick them on and let the horse throw itself around until it gives up. How horrible to just fight until you give up on a basic right like freedom. Do those who do this also 'teach' to tie up by tying youngsters to big heavy posts and sacking them out until they stop fighting?


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## somethingorother (21 December 2011)

To he honest i thought we were in 2011 but perhaps I am mistaken...


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## CorvusCorax (21 December 2011)

Just because people do things differently to you, does not mean they are automatically wrong/barbaric/disgusting 
Seen them used a lot on the continent, with no issue.


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## Tinypony (21 December 2011)

Personally I would not want to use hobbles to deal with something that is a training issue such as clipping or mane pulling.  I'm surprised though that so many here can't understand that in some countries, with proper training, they are an invaluable tool when horses need to be let loose, but there are no fences to hold them in.  Of course accidents can and do happen in all sorts of circumstances, and I'm sure they have happened to horses that were hobbled to be free to graze.  I've also known of a horse that was tied up while being shod in a regular headcollar, to a bit of baling twine, and got startled, flipped itself over and died on the spot because it broke it's neck.  Horses get hurt in all sorts of situations.
I don't teach my horses to hobble, but I do teach them not to panic when they feel pressure around their legs, and to follow a feel from a rope around their legs.  I think that's a useful life lesson that might make a huge difference to us one day.


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## shirleyno2 (21 December 2011)

I often trvel a truck load of stallions and/or mares together, they may be on the truck for several hours on a competition day, and they are all hobbled in front. The hobbles are used to help prevent them kicking due to boredom or man-ego. I have seen way too many accidents from horses climbing onto the tack lockers or putting their feet through the window bars. The hobbles are not excessivley short [except on ones that learn how to kick the partitions open or pull their shoes off on the partition handles]
I've never yet had a horse freak out at the hobbles, they might have a quick temper tantrum but thats all it is.


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## Twilkolock (22 December 2011)

Spring Feather said:



			No the real shame is that you live such a blinkered existence.  Keeping your ponies in tiny 5 acres pony paddocks and going on hacks along nicely tended bridleways.  The world is larger than this.  Think enormous ranches in Australia, North America, Africa, Asia, South America (all HUGE continents, each with massive equine populations compared to your teeny little country with it's globally-sparse horse population).  Hobbling is a way of life for a great many horses located in different areas of the world.  It is THE ONLY WAY in many instances for people to use horse power to work their land and tend their stock.  You are proving just how sheltered a life you lead with your ignorance of what goes on, quite normally and without fuss, in vast areas of the world, but hey Great ole Britain shouts loudest about how the rest of the world population should go about their business.  Sorry deary but the British Empire dissolved a long time ago and your airy-fairy ideals should be buried alongside it 

Click to expand...

I wasn't going to participate in this discussion any longer. However, when I saw this post, I really wanted to comment.

Having studied cross cultural agricultural pracitices for a Masters degree in Anthropology and someone who has travelled in all those countries, except Australia, I am all too aware of the legacy of the British Empire and how one must be 'culturally relative' and not shove our ideas upon non western societies.

However, if you do your research you will know that hobbling is a major welfare concern for those countries themselves. The Animal Welfare, livelihoods and Environment regional workshops held in Africa most years by animal welfare groups (homegrown) cite hobbling as a welfare issue. Also, the Brooke, WSPA also have concerns about the hobbling. 

I am not going to again go into detail about hobbles. However, I wanted to point out that your idea of small scale socieities living in harmony with their enviroment/animals is a western construct that you've bought in to. Many donkies, horses, cattle lead pretty appauling lives and without charities like Brooke, their lives would be even more miserable.


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## flyingfeet (22 December 2011)

Ok so this is probably dragging on and everyone is getting bored

Some will be pro hobble and some against, I accept that there are people that would never use hobbles, and certainly a lot that should not (or probably lunge, or even own a horse!!) 

I will reiterate - you should be competent in handling your horse, you need to spend time training prior to addressing any issue


This is why I am happy to train my horses to hobbles - cause is barb wire


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## jeeve (22 December 2011)

SpottedCat said:



			Not if they are fitted correctly it doesn't - you're not tying their feet right next to each other after all! Mine can still spread his back legs, and has absolutely no issues standing up in them. There is a lot of adjustment in a decent set of hobbles.
		
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Would depend on the hobble. Also the horse would need to be used to them. The pair we have would not be suitable for travel. I also would not use them on any other of our horses without some one assisting me to teach them to accept them. But the clydie mare accepts them well.


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## scrunchie (22 December 2011)

Jen_Cots said:



			Ok so this is probably dragging on and everyone is getting bored

Some will be pro hobble and some against, I accept that there are people that would never use hobbles, and certainly a lot that should not (or probably lunge, or even own a horse!!) 

I will reiterate - you should be competent in handling your horse, you need to spend time training prior to addressing any issue


This is why I am happy to train my horses to hobbles - cause is barb wire 





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EEEEEEEEK!

Really wish there had been some kind of warning before I scrolled down. I assume the horse was PTS?


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## Spring Feather (22 December 2011)

Twilkolock said:



			Also, the Brooke, WSPA also have concerns about the hobbling.
		
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I've just checked on the status of hobbling with these charities; the Brooke asks for donations of hobbles along with harnesses, tack etc and they teach the use of humane hobbles to their "clients" and WSPA is trying to eliminate hobbling, only in the Mediterranean countries but not in the rest of the world.

Just to remind you, the instances I gave were of horses being used (in mainly developed nations) to work vast ranches where there are often no trees to tether horses and there aren't 5 acre pony paddocks aplenty.

ETA; the worry of fence injuries like this happening is why I teach all of my young horses about restraint using long lead ropes.  I don't use hobbles, have no need for them when the rope will give the same results and I feel is safer.  I am not against those who have a necessity to use, or choose to use, and correctly teaches their horse about, hobbles.


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## SpottedCat (22 December 2011)

I'm really disappointed that none of the people who think that they can train my horse not to kick in the lorry are prepared to put their money where their mouth is and actually demonstrate how they would solve the issue. All they've said is they would train the horse properly. I'd like to be shown how please, then I can do away with one more time consuming thing on event days.


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## Spring Feather (22 December 2011)

SpottedCat said:



			I'm really disappointed that none of the people who think that they can train my horse not to kick in the lorry are prepared to put their money where their mouth is and actually demonstrate how they would solve the issue. All they've said is they would train the horse properly. I'd like to be shown how please, then I can do away with one more time consuming thing on event days.
		
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They never answered my question either about how *they* train horses to not react in instances where their legs could become caught up in fences.  Possibly because they don't actually know how to train for these situations and maybe haven't ever thought about it until this thread cropped up.


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## piebaldmare (22 December 2011)

Spring Feather said:



			They never answered my question either about how *they* train horses to not react in instances where their legs could become caught up in fences.  Possibly because they don't actually know how to train for these situations and maybe haven't ever thought about it until this thread cropped up.
		
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Thats cos you never actually asked that question before Spring Feather.

Im with all the antis here - never used them - never would.


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## cptrayes (22 December 2011)

Haven't read the thread but how is hobbling an answer to not getting a horse caught up in barbed wire? Surely not turning the horse out in barbed wired paddocks is the answer to not getting them caught up in barbed wire?


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## piebaldmare (23 December 2011)

Santa Paws said:



			Surely not turning the horse out in barbed wired paddocks is the answer to not getting them caught up in barbed wire?
		
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Couldn't agree more. 

Spring Feather - Why with proper fencing would you need to hobble? Don't really understand why your horses get caught up in fencing?

Are you telling us that you hobble your horses in the feild whilst grazing? 

Surely, if your horse was caught up in fencing, you'd sedate? 

Sitting on a horse's head is a good way to calm - I wouldn't want to get hobbles on a horse that was thrashing it's legs caught up in a fence.

But as our livey owner has good fencing - its thankfully never happened.


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## Spring Feather (23 December 2011)

Spring Feather said:



			What are they?  I'm always interested in other peoples methods.  How do _you_ teach horses not to panic when they are leg/head/body restrained?
		
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Spring Feather said:



			They never answered my question either about how *they* train horses to not react in instances where their legs could become caught up in fences.  Possibly because they don't actually know how to train for these situations and maybe haven't ever thought about it until this thread cropped up.
		
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piebaldmare said:



			Thats cos you never actually asked that question before Spring Feather.
		
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There you go 



piebaldmare said:



			Spring Feather - Why with proper fencing would you need to hobble? Don't really understand why your horses get caught up in fencing?

Are you telling us that you hobble your horses in the feild whilst grazing? 

Surely, if your horse was caught up in fencing, you'd sedate? 

Sitting on a horse's head is a good way to calm - I wouldn't want to get hobbles on a horse that was thrashing it's legs caught up in a fence.

But as our livey owner has good fencing - its thankfully never happened.
		
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Oops you must have missed where I've said at least 3 times that I don't use hobbles


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## Enfys (23 December 2011)

piebaldmare said:



			Surely, if your horse was caught up in fencing, you'd sedate? 

.
		
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 Right, and of course, absolutely everyone carries sedatives around in their pockets for just that occasion!  Cell phones are a damn sight more helpful to rally the troops in the first instance. 

I believe the point SF is making is that if a horse should get caught up then the fact that it is accustomed to having the legs restrained means that it is far less likely to struggle or panic should it get trapped in something.


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## flyingfeet (23 December 2011)

Santa Paws said:



			Haven't read the thread but how is hobbling an answer to not getting a horse caught up in barbed wire? Surely not turning the horse out in barbed wired paddocks is the answer to not getting them caught up in barbed wire?
		
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The issue is not fencing - yes its great if everyone can afford nice post and rail! However horses have been caught up in electric fence, and you never know what you are going to meet if you are out hacking. Also what if some cretin lets your horse loose?

The hobble trained horse won't panic once caught up - that's the vital thing as it prevents injuries caused by struggling and panic (the ekkkk "its got my leg" response, which generally results in far worse injuries). Even if you had a syringe of sedative or handful of ACP, most injuries are caused within seconds. 

Now some horses are sensible by nature, and these you don't really need to hobble train (as when you put them on they don't do anything). 

I hobble train my horses, but tend not to really use them more than once or twice a year. My homebreds just regarded me with their usual humour, whereas my flighty TB polo pony initially did the ekkk response. 

Bearing in mind my horses are gun trained too; and betting the anti hobble view probably think firing a 9mm revolver on a horse is cruel too!


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## Tinypony (23 December 2011)

Spring Feather said:



			They never answered my question either about how *they* train horses to not react in instances where their legs could become caught up in fences.  Possibly because they don't actually know how to train for these situations and maybe haven't ever thought about it until this thread cropped up.
		
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I don't think I was on the thread when you asked that question Spring Feather, but I can tell you what I do with my horses.  I don't use hobbles.  I just use my long ropes to accustom them to the feel of ropes around their legs, then do some work picking their feet up with ropes, then progress until I can have a loop of rope around any leg and "lead" them in any direction from that.  It's all very gradual and calm and non-eventful.  The idea is that, if they do feel something around their legs restricting their movement, their first instinct won't be panic, because they will have felt that sort of pressure many times before.  It seems to work.  Examples:

When I first got my Arab gelding and started riding him in the woods I quickly realised that he wasn't used to that sort of terrain because we would practically become airborne if he got low-lying branches round his legs.  I did my normal rope work and now he stays calm.

I was putting my Arab mare out into the field in horrendous windy weather one day, let her off the halter and wondered why she stood there looking rather tense and "tall".  I hadn't realised that a bit of electric rope had come down in the wind, was laying on the ground, and as she'd turned it had wrapped around the fetlock of one of her back legs.  She was stood twitching in time with the pulsing from the battery fencing, but yielded to the pressure round her leg.  I'll admit to holding my breath a bit when I freed her!

Some horses have it in their nature to be quite pragmatic about things and I know of many tales of horses that got their legs caught and just stood and waited for help, eating a patch of grass bare while they waited.  We all know that some horses will panic with firghtening results though, so I don't see any harm in teaching the same lesson to any horses that come our way.

I can see why some trainers teach hobbling as a routine (which can be done gradually and quietly), in order to acheive the same result as I do with my ropes.

Mine also give to pressure on their heads now, so if they stand on their leadrope they just stop, and often back up to put slack back on the rope.

As an aside, when I was riding with a friend in Tuscany we hobbled the horses for lunch breaks.  It meant they could have a little wander about while we ate.  Obviously they were trained to hobbles.


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## cptrayes (23 December 2011)

Jen_Cots said:



			The issue is not fencing - yes its great if everyone can afford nice post and rail!
		
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This appears to be suggesting that it is OK to turn a horse out with unsafe fencing as long as it has hobbles on. Not in my book, sorry   Permanent post and tape/rope is better fencing than post and rail because they can't eat it. If you cannot afford self-installed post and tape/rope then you really cannot afford a horse.

I'm not necessarily against hobbles. I can see them, for example, being useful for a horse which will not stay in a bare paddock (for its own good) and always jumps the fence into lusher grass.

I would use them to travel a persistent kicker who is risking damage to himself.

I would not use them to protect my horse from bad fencing. 

I had never thought of using them to train a horse not to panic if his legs get caught up in something. I'll go away and have a think about that one.


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## applecart14 (23 December 2011)

A friend on a previous yard hobbled her horse: as in tied its tail to its front leg, or its head to its back leg (can't remember which) but forgot to untie it when she unloaded the horse.  It reared up and smashed its head, and looked very poorly for a while until it came too enough to be able to be walked to a stable.

Would never do that to mine though, - I think its an thing which is done is eastern countries more.

Jen Cots what a horrific thing to have happened to your horse.  Agree with poster that said maybe we could of had a warning but thank you for sharing this picture.


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## TigerTail (23 December 2011)

All those anti hobble people - you do all realise you are doing a very similar thing by shutting your horses in small stables every day/night......... taking the flight option away from a flight animal......

Hobbles have their uses and should, as everything else, be used as a tool to help horses and their owners. They will, same as every other piece of equipment, only be as harsh as the person applying them. People saying they thought we were in 2011 and that they are outdated - not at all, we hobble our horses all the time, we just do it with bricks and electric fencing in tiny squares of paddocks


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## flyingfeet (23 December 2011)

Santa Paws said:



			This appears to be suggesting that it is OK to turn a horse out with unsafe fencing as long as it has hobbles on. Not in my book, sorry 

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Not at all - if you read my prior post (yes I know a lot!!) I never leave them on unsupervised. I am just saying that if you have hobble trained, in the event of your horse being turned out with less than perfect fencing and they get hung up, you have a much higher chance of reducing injury if you've hobble trained.


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## SpottedCat (23 December 2011)

And *still* no-one has offered to come and help me train my horse out of kicking. To recap - he kicks in the lorry for the final couple of minutes of the journey, whether that's to a new venue, one he's been to a lot of times before or coming home. He doesn't kick the rest of the time. He loads fine, travels fine and stands all day on the truck if needs be. When he kicks, he does it hard enough and in such a way as to dislodge the spring-loaded partitions, which then fall on him (he dislodges the back - front can't be dislodged due to type of pin). He doesn't panic when this happens, in fact he quietly stands eating hay - but when there is more than one horse it is downright dangerous. Hobbles stop him doing this. 

How about someone posts on here how they'd do it then? Or do you all have so little faith in your own ability?


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## stilltrying (23 December 2011)

SpottedCat said:



			And *still[/i] no-one has offered to come and help me train my horse out of kicking. To recap - he kicks in the lorry for the final couple of minutes of the journey, whether that's to a new venue, one he's been to a lot of times before or coming home. He doesn't kick the rest of the time. He loads fine, travels fine and stands all day on the truck if needs be. When he kicks, he does it hard enough and in such a way as to dislodge the spring-loaded partitions, which then fall on him (he dislodges the back - front can't be dislodged due to type of pin). He doesn't panic when this happens, in fact he quietly stands eating hay - but when there is more than one horse it is downright dangerous. Hobbles stop him doing this. 

How about someone posts on here how they'd do it then? Or do you all have so little faith in your own ability?*

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*

its ok SpottedCat, no one has offered any alternative advice on how they would have dealt with my ex-trailer kicker either...*


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## Tinypony (23 December 2011)

Who do you two want to answer you?


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## Spring Feather (23 December 2011)

Tinypony I appreciate the time you took to write out how you train your youngsters and horses.  I train mine in a similar manner.  I was riding through a dense forest with deep undergrowth and although my horses are quite used to being caught up in branches or tangled undergrowth one day the horse I was riding became entangled with some wire that was lying around on the forest floor.  I have no idea where it came from or what it was doing there but boy was I pleased that I teach my horses to not panic.  It was a reel of hi-tensile wire which could not be seen as it was autumn and all the leaves were on the ground covering it.  I told my horse to stand, which he did, while I got off and disentangled his hind leg from the reel of wire.  My mature horses are all taught to ground tie so there was no fear of him buggering off once he was freed.  I don't know why people would not teach this type of restraint-training to their horses.  I believe it is a responsible thing to do to teach as much as I can to keep my horses stress and panic-free in as many situations as I can envisage them getting into.


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## zoon (23 December 2011)

I am very open minded - would hobble a horse correctly if I ever needed to. I know someone who hobbles front and back when travelling and ties the headcollar to the back hobbles with a tight chain - this I find a bit severe!


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## Tinypony (23 December 2011)

Spring Feather said:



			Tinypony I appreciate the time you took to write out how you train your youngsters and horses.  I train mine in a similar manner.  I was riding through a dense forest with deep undergrowth and although my horses are quite used to being caught up in branches or tangled undergrowth one day the horse I was riding became entangled with some wire that was lying around on the forest floor.  I have no idea where it came from or what it was doing there but boy was I pleased that I teach my horses to not panic.  It was a reel of hi-tensile wire which could not be seen as it was autumn and all the leaves were on the ground covering it.  I told my horse to stand, which he did, while I got off and disentangled his hind leg from the reel of wire.  My mature horses are all taught to ground tie so there was no fear of him buggering off once he was freed.  I don't know why people would not teach this type of restraint-training to their horses.  I believe it is a responsible thing to do to teach as much as I can to keep my horses stress and panic-free in as many situations as I can envisage them getting into.
		
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Leaving the hobbles debate aside just for a minute, I can't work out why a significant number of horse people seem to get so het up about this ropes around the legs thing.  The key is to be able to easily release if the horse starts to get too worried.  That's why I start with just the rope, one end in each hand and held around the leg.  Then use a rope with a big ring on the end so that I can put the rope through the ring to make a loop, but as soon as I drop the rope to let it go slack it just falls off.  Yet, more "normal" people watch me doing this stuff and so often the reaction is "My horse would NEVER put up with that.  You're lucky, your horses are so good...".  When of course their horses would be absolutely fine about it provided they used a bit of feel and timing in their training.
As for ground tying.  I freaked my vet by dropping my rope on the ground and going to get something out of my barn.  The vet kept making half leaps at the rope and then stopping herself.  I told her "It's OK, he's ground tied", but she could hardly contain herself.  She was really sweet about it.  In the end I told her to stand on the end of the rope and see if the horse would panic, and of course he just stood still, then stepped back to release the pressure.  I'm not saying "Oh, how great, look at how wonderful my horses are" (although of course they are...), just pointing out that it's really easy to teach horses to be a little bit safer and that it doesn't have to be a big deal.  
I guess I think that teaching to hobble could be just as easy.  And safety-wise, probably not really more dangerous than the other methods of restraint that we use.  (Still think hobbling to clip or pull manes would be a bit OTT).


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## SpottedCat (23 December 2011)

Tiny pony - it is just as easy! In fact all the ones I've hobble trained have understood pretty much straight away. I've never had these panic issues people seem concerned about - but then all mine are also trained to voice command and well used to various other important things first (like a rope round the leg, giving to pressure etc)


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## SpottedCat (23 December 2011)

And from what you've described TP, your horses are hobble trained,  you've just never put a set on - bet you'd have no reaction if you did!


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## Tinker_Belle (24 December 2011)

I don't see the problem with hobbles providing they are used correctly and kept in their place. Nobody on here is advocating their use in the way we would use a headcollar (almost 24/7 and while turned out) but I can see where in some instances they would be useful. 

I can absolutely see the reasoning behind the training. Last winter my mare had somehow managed to untie herself and come and find me in the tackroom. The way our yard is laid out is the indoor stables have two entrances, one gangway for horses to go in and out of at one end and one ramp up to a doorway for humans to reach the tackroom quickly and easily from the yard. My mare decided she'd use the human entrance but unfortunately stood on her leadrope mid-way to me meaning she was stood in a very narrow area (belly touching the sides) but because she has been taught to give to pressure, she simply stood and waited for me to come and sort her out. As soon as I'd clicked at her she stepped back and back down the ramp and to the safety of the yard.

Had she not been sensible then a nasty accident and injuries could have occurred. 

Again, last Winter (Christmas day morning in fact!) I was leading my mare out of her stable when another pony (known for biting others) went for her face to bite her. My mare backed up and then got attacked on her hindquarter by another pony who managed to bite so fiercely he almost tore through her rug! During all this she'd managed to get a hindleg stuck in a wheelbarrow, as the wheelbarrow was plastic her hoof had thankfully gone through (It makes me sick to think what would have happened if it had been a metal barrow) but it had caused her to panic as she was not only being snapped at both ends but now had her hindleg trapped. She did blow her top to a certain extent in that she tried to kick herself free. I had no option but to hold tight and make myself heard by talking to her as the ground was thick with ice outside and the livery who'd left the barrow out behind us was helpfully shouting at me to let her go, when there was thick ice and our yard borders a main road. Yes, fabulous idea! 
Thankfully, my mare is very trusting of me and I do consider myself lucky to know mostly how she will react. She did her utmost to avoid me and not slam me against the brickwork as so many others would have done but that didn't mean I came away injury-free, I did siffer bruising from flying hooves and legs but nothing as serious as it could have been as in her panic she could easily have body slammed me in to a brick wall and crushed me. When she had stopped thrashing around (what felt like an age but was seconds) she stood rock-still while I untangled her and lead her out. I checked her for injury and five minutes later she was happily scoffing her breakfast in her field as if nothing had happened.

Had she not been taught to give in to pressure or listen to voice commands as she has been then she could easily have damaged herself and/or killed me. 
Sometimes it is worth looking at a subject from all angles and considering the pros and cons. The pros far outweigh the cons when it comes to the teaching of giving to pressure and teaching a horse that simply because it's leg is stuck, it is going to die a gory death.

Had my mare not had to suffer being snapped at by two pairs of teeth at each end then I am sure her reaction would have been far less extreme to getting her leg caught as she did. I could be wrong but regardless, I'm happy I didn't end up with either a severely injured horse or a very dead one.


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## Tinypony (24 December 2011)

How about another pointless circus trick?  Teach to back up from the tail.  )
That comes in handy when a fat pony has escaped and wiggled herself into a small shed.  
I think it's a shame really that nobody who was objecting strongly to hobbles, all hobbles in all situations, hasn't come back and offered suggestions for the horse that kicks at the end of journeys.  I'd have been interested in ideas about that.


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## *hic* (24 December 2011)

Well as it's obviously stressed on the last few minutes of the journey you should stop just before it starts to kick, unload and walk it home (please note my tongue is firmly in my cheek!)

It's just the same as my cat who commuted weekly between Cambridge and Norwich and would sleep all the way until the last few minutes. If you stopped on the way she'd sleep through that but wake prior to arrival at home.


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## SpottedCat (24 December 2011)

LOL Hic, love it!! 

Tiny pony I would have loved some suggestions too, not least because taking off hobbles from a horse's back legs when it's been travelling is a singularly messy and unpleasant job! 

I'd go as far as to say that I'd be prepared to reward anyone who has a lasting solution that works


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## christine48 (24 December 2011)

A couple of ours kick whilst travelling so we do travel in hind hobbles. Never had a problem they accept it same as being tied up.


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## Tinypony (24 December 2011)

Well, Happy Christmas anyway everyone.


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