# Using the same stallion again



## Asha (10 November 2012)

I was just wondering, if anyone had used the same stallion on a mare more than once, and if so, how different / alike the resulting foals where ?

Did they look alike / similar temperaments / similar talent ?


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## ritajennings (10 November 2012)

I used Crosstown Dancer Liver Chestnut 3 times and all the foals are alike bay with a tiny bit of white just like the dam all with great temperaments like the sire and Dam.
Stallion





Mare





Archie and his brother Gordon





Gerty 






Ooops sorry about the size


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## RealityCheck (10 November 2012)

these two are out of a Prinz gaylord mare, by my young stallion. Both are nice, tall foals, with IMO beautiful heads/necks, and nice hips. I may be bias since they come from my favorite mare, but you couldn't ask for a nicer temperament from them. 










Castro mare, same stallion. Big, long legged foals, with this years filly (bottom) more upright and expressive. For the market, (HJ) less hock/need action is acceptable, to give a smoother, more level looking ride, both foals would be suitable for this.










Lynx mare, both Popeye K. Both foals offer a vast improvement on the dams neck, with a lot of natural muscle tone. Both are tall and elegant, with pretty heads, they were also both champions at their respective gradings.


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## emlybob (10 November 2012)

Used the same stallion on the same mare 6 times. First foal ended up at 17.1hh big moving bay, a couple similar. The 4 year old 16.2 and chestnut very different stamp


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## Asha (10 November 2012)

Wow, they are all absolutey stunning. 

Really nothing between yours Ritajennings. Their dam really put a fantastic stamp on them all.

Realitycheck - what gorgeous babies, and so similar

This is very reassuring.

My first foal now 3 1/2 has just gone away for backing, and we are getting some very exciting vibes about him, its early days so i am keeping my excitement under control. 

Shes had another foal by a different stallion,  she has the same fantastic temperament as her brother, nicely put together, but different. Not in a bad way, just different. Just musing with the possibility of using the first stallion again. 

Thanks


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## cundlegreen (10 November 2012)

I bred three. the first gelding took after Dad for colour, the others after Mum. The one filly has less bone than the boys, but are all very similar in way of going and height.
Dad....






Mum.......





Kids....


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## EstherYoung (10 November 2012)

Spud and Felix have several full siblings. They are all pretty typey and you can tell they're a product of their parents but they've taken different things from both. Their dam only had eyes for their father and it was very much a love match. They're all a bit special (Spud in more ways than one....  ).

The owner of one of their sisters has done a brief overview of the family on their website: 
http://www.skou-arabians.dk/Affiffa_eng.htm

To add to the list are the two youngest - one is in race training and the other is Felix, the baby of the bunch.

Spud and Felix are very different characters (Spud is away with the fairies and Felix is a bit more serious), but they both have a liking for digging very round, symmetrical holes. Felix I think will end up taller than his brother.


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## Asha (10 November 2012)

Cundlegreen, your 'kids' are beautiful, such gentle kind faces, as well as everything else. You must be very proud.

Esteryoung - spud sounds fab, i like em special


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## cloppy (11 November 2012)

My two colts by H Tobago out of Holme Park Sunbeam.  Lots of similarities in every way.


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## the watcher (11 November 2012)

I also have two by HTobago out of the same mare. Both are red duns with a tiny white star, the older gelding has a little more bone than the younger filly but in every other respect they are a very close match, temperamentally they are very similar

The gelding as a 2 year old 
	
	
		
		
	


	





The filly as a yearling


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## oldywoldy (12 November 2012)

We have used Jumbo many times on different mares mainly thoroughbreds.   My best mare has had 13 Jumbos they are all like peas in a pod.  Same colour, slightly differing in size but not much, same fabulous temperament, same stamp,  all move and all jump and all of those who are old enough are eventing from 4* downwards. I love a stallion who seriously stamps his stock and you cannot get any better than Jumbo!  His sons are also stamping their stock too.  And no I do not have anything to do with Grafham Stud I am just a big fan!


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## foxy1 (12 November 2012)

I wonder if it makes a difference if you get colt/filly siblings rather than the same sex? I mean, are the same sex siblings more similar?


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## Asha (12 November 2012)

Cloppy & the watcher - wow they are stunning. Htobago really helps to make gorgeous babies.


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## Asha (12 November 2012)

oldywoldy said:



			We have used Jumbo many times on different mares mainly thoroughbreds.   My best mare has had 13 Jumbos they are all like peas in a pod.  Same colour, slightly differing in size but not much, same fabulous temperament, same stamp,  all move and all jump and all of those who are old enough are eventing from 4* downwards. I love a stallion who seriously stamps his stock and you cannot get any better than Jumbo!  His sons are also stamping their stock too.  And no I do not have anything to do with Grafham Stud I am just a big fan!
		
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The stallion i used initially really stamps his stock too. They tend to be bay, white socks and stripe, plus great temperaments.

Must admit i nearly used jumbo, but as she is 3/4 ID i thought the foal would be too chunky. He is undoubtedly a superb stallion.


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## cloppy (12 November 2012)

Thank you Asha.  The Watcher my yearling (the top one) now has exactly the same face as your filly.


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## oldywoldy (12 November 2012)

Made no difference with mine whether colts or fillies - still very typey!  I will try to dig out some photos.


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## TBB (13 November 2012)

I find it varies a lot, one Tb mare had 3 Tbs by the same stallion all the same colour and confirmation but 15.2, 16.0 and 16.3 at 3 years old, the first was a filly. The same mare had two by a different Tb stallion one 16.3 at 3 and bay and the other ches. and 14.3 at 3, the latter is a filly and again similar conformation. We had a sport horse mare who went to Cruising 4 times and had 2 colts and 2 fillies and all 4 were differnt shapes, colours and types and none took after mum or dad!


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## Asha (13 November 2012)

cloppy said:



			Thank you Asha.  The Watcher my yearling (the top one) now has exactly the same face as your filly. 
	
	
		
		
	


	




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Wow, your right, she does. You really cant beat chestnut mares


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## PennyJ (13 November 2012)

Very interesting thread, I am just about decided to go back and use the same stallion as my mare's first foal, who is now under saddle and showing a lot of promise with a HOYS campaign planned for next year...


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## Asha (13 November 2012)

PennyJ said:



			Very interesting thread, I am just about decided to go back and use the same stallion as my mare's first foal, who is now under saddle and showing a lot of promise with a HOYS campaign planned for next year...
		
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Which stallion, have you any pics of your first foal?


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## First Time Mum (14 November 2012)

My 3 year old has 2 full sisters and a full brother. 
2 year old colt is the spitting image but moves differently to her 
Yearling is totally different colour (dark bay - others are bright chestnut) very similar head totally different temprament moves very similar to the 3 year old 
Foal is the spitting image of my 3 year old similar personality, movement the lot


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## JanetGeorge (14 November 2012)

Asha said:



			I was just wondering, if anyone had used the same stallion on a mare more than once, and if so, how different / alike the resulting foals where ?

Did they look alike / similar temperaments / similar talent ?
		
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Having had my own RID stallion for 8 years, I have used him on a number of my mares year after year!  The mare who has had the MOST foals by him is Northwood Rose RID - a very traditional ID - only 15.2 and built like a brick outhouse!  She has had a total of 9 full siblings by Raj.  They are ALL grey - so I suspect Rosie is homozygous for grey!   The oldest is an 8 year old mare, then there were 3 boys in a row, then 4 more fillies - and a colt this year.  Heights range from about 15.3 (a now 4 year old filly) up to 17hh (a 7 year old gelding who was entire until rising 6.)  The biggest daughter (now 3) will finish up about 16.3!

Conformation varies a bit - but they are all similar in 'look'.  But the over-riding similarity is temperament (all great!)  Next year will be the first foal by a different stallion (and he's not grey) so it will be interesting to see the result of that - the decision to change stallions was purely because of her age - I wanted to use a much smaller stallion on her for her comfort during covering - and in hope of a smaller foal at foaling (she always has BIG foals!)

Another mare who had a lot by him was Little Macha RID - a very good mare - a full sister to the great RID stallion Agherlow.  She was in foal to another stallion when I bought her, and 1 of her daughters by a different stallion again came here for covering, and I'd say the Raj offspring were her best!  The oldest daughter was a little lacking on the conformation front, the next daughter was better (and the better brood mare.)  The 3rd full sibling was a bay colt - and he was TOTALLY different to all the other full siblings (all of whom are grey) except in temperament.  All the progeny have had fantastic temperaments which was to be expected as she was a lamb and my stallion is also exceptional in that regard.  We're just backing her last foal - he's been about THE easiest horse we've ever backed (and we've had a lot of easy ones.)  One of the full brothers was backed at Robert Oliver's yard, and Robert also said HE was one of the easiest they've ever had.

I guess one of the drawbacks to having your own stallion is that you tend to use him on your mares as long as the progeny are good - so you DON'T find out if progeny by other stallions MIGHT be better!  AS my stallion has got much older I have got a bit more adventurous and used other stallions on some of the mares, either because I was looking for improvement (or variety, or non-greys, or in a couple of cases because the mares were 'difficult' with natural cover so were better AI'd!)  I've particularly used Avanti Amorous Archie over the past 4 years and in a few cases, the foals were strikingly 'better' - so have stuck with him for those mares.  With others, the quality of the foals has been very similar - not surprising as Archie and my stallion are both very similar in type, size and temperament!

The other stallion I've used on some in the last 2 years is a home-bred youngster who is very different in type, smaller for starters - with a dash of TB high up in his pedigree - and one has to say the Breed Inspectors didn't like him much!  But a couple of the mares have produced foals that are VERY different to those they've produced before - and I like them a lot - so we used him on a few more this year.  Time will tell!


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## Lgd (14 November 2012)

Three foals from the same mare, all outstanding movers. One chestnut, two bays. The first is a bit of a shrimp and threw back height-wise to her grandsire. Her brother is going to be a hand taller than her but similar type. Third one sadly died as a foal but would probably have been similar height to her brother - typically also the best one of the lot which is not dissing the other two.

Number one - mixed album but she is the chestnut one

https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.35569552977.43359.673237977&type=1&l=d67711ecf8

Number 2

https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.397242062977.177329.673237977&type=1&l=d6dbed1aca

as a 2yo

https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.10151087376537978.460986.673237977&type=1&l=d58f63e9ec

number 3

https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.10150208094157978.333768.673237977&type=1&l=8c7639ac04


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## Maesfen (15 November 2012)

Where to begin!
Spry, my first mare had two by Embla Statesman, peas in a pod!  Fiver (the yearling in this) is now 22 and still going strong.





Then she had two by Big Connaught (TB) a chestnut and a bay.  Conway Gold won the HIS Sale Show and was top priced 2 yr old there while Jackson was a small bay who has just celebrated his 19th birthday.
Chestnut foal





A bad pic but used for advertising the next year after his win











I've had 4 by Bazaars Texas from 3 different bay TB mares.  Again, all very similar.  This is Joey and Dotty.  Very sadly, my vet lost Joey last weekend when he struck into himself out hunting; to say we're all devastated is an understatement.  Even regarding them all as special in their own way he did have to be the best I had bred; Joey had so much natural talent he was a machine cross country; we had high hopes of him, sadly no more.







I've had 4 by Fairlyn Gemini, 2 different TB mares; so alike it's like looking in the mirror (but sadly no pics)

I've also had 3 by Maurice Minor (ID) from 3 different but similar type mares that are peas in a pod although the filly, Tara is lighter boned.
Bear, working hunter champion and seriously good hunter, jumps anything, this as a 3 yr old before breaking





Tara, yearling earlier this year





Manny,






Now of course, I'm waiting for another H Tobago from Bea to match this one!






Sorry there are so many!


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## htobago (2 December 2012)

Fascinating thread! 

Tobago's babies out of the same mare are always virtually identical. I'll find some more examples, but here are a few more pics of cloppy's 'twins' out of Holme Park Sunbeam (Trakehner):



















Oh blast - second lot of pics didn't work - will try again later... sorry!


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## JanetGeorge (2 December 2012)

htobago said:



			Fascinating thread! 

Tobago's babies out of the same mare are always virtually identical.
		
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That doesn't surprise me.  Arabians and TBs are OLD breeds - and very pre-potent.  They always carry more influence than the younger breeds.

I confess I can't WAIT for my H Tobago foals.  Katie and Brook (both IDSH) have consistently produced very nice foals to Raj (RID) but one has to say that Katie's are always a teensy bit plain in the head - and a teensy bit TOO tall!

This is Katie with one of her Raj foals:






She IS a cracking mover - as are all her foals - and the H Tobago foal (in addition to being chestnut rather than another ruddy grey!) will have at LEAST as good movement, and a MUCH prettier head.

Brook has a lovely head - I'm just hoping her foal is a filly because a colt will be just TOO pretty to be taken seriously!

This is Brook - with a Raj foal (who greyed out)






And this is one of her Raj daughters (slightly plainer head than Mum.)


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## Alec Swan (2 December 2012)

This thread is a delight,  regardless of anything.

Maesfen,  Wonderful pics,  thank you.  

Back to the question.  I've seen the same stallion used on the same mare,  3 years running,  and 3 totally opposing foals have been born.  When others tell me that everything's gone according to plan,  then I don't believe them,  it's a lottery,  and mostly we get what we want,  a healthy foal.  What we make of it is an entirely different matter! 

Alec.


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## htobago (2 December 2012)

JanetGeorge said:



			That doesn't surprise me.  Arabians and TBs are OLD breeds - and very pre-potent.  They always carry more influence than the younger breeds.

I confess I can't WAIT for my H Tobago foals.  Katie and Brook (both IDSH) have consistently produced very nice foals to Raj (RID) but one has to say that Katie's are always a teensy bit plain in the head - and a teensy bit TOO tall!

This is Katie with one of her Raj foals:






She IS a cracking mover - as are all her foals - and the H Tobago foal (in addition to being chestnut rather than another ruddy grey!) will have at LEAST as good movement, and a MUCH prettier head.

Brook has a lovely head - I'm just hoping her foal is a filly because a colt will be just TOO pretty to be taken seriously!

This is Brook - with a Raj foal (who greyed out)






And this is one of her Raj daughters (slightly plainer head than Mum.)






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I am counting the days till these two arrive - very excited and impatient! The Raj foals from these splendid girls will be a hard act to follow, though, of course.


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## JanetGeorge (2 December 2012)

Alec Swan said:



			Back to the question.  I've seen the same stallion used on the same mare,  3 years running,  and 3 totally opposing foals have been born.  When others tell me that everything's gone according to plan,  then I don't believe them,  it's a lottery,  and mostly we get what we want,  a healthy foal.  What we make of it is an entirely different matter! 

Alec.
		
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You're not wrong!  You can get a LOT of variation in full siblings but it is more likely where one or both parents are of mixed breeding!

These are full siblings - pure ID:
























 (the mare - not the foal)







They're certainly not identical, but ....


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## htobago (2 December 2012)

Trying again to post pics of the Tobago 'twins' out of Cloppy's Trakehner mare Holme Park Sunbeam -my computer was having a hissy fit earlier - hope it works this time:
































Not terribly helpful pics for comparison, as the second lot are just paddock-snap headshots in winter woollies, but you see what I mean about 'twins'?

And here's a filly by Tobago who is 3/4 sister to the 2 colts above, out of Holme Park Venezia (she's much younger in these pics than the 2 colts, so not ideal for comparison, but thought it might be interesting to see a 3/4 sibling as well):




















And here are a couple of The Watcher's Tobagolings (colt and filly) out of her super Highland pony mare:

















And a more recent one of the colt:








Two palomino fillies, also by Tobago, both out of Louraise Bint Silver Charm, both photos as yearlings:






















And a more recent pic of the older of these 2 palomino 'twins':






The dam is back in foal to Tobago again, so I'll post a 'triplet' photo when the 2013 baby arrives...

And here are two more 'twin' Tobagolings ( a colt and a filly) out of a TB mare by Java Tiger (apologies for poor-quality pics of the second one):






















This mare is also back in foal to Tobago, so I'll add the 2013 triplet when it arrives.

He has pure-bred full siblings too, but tbh all his pure-bred foals look pretty much identical anyway - I've been accused of cloning...

Very good point JanetGeorge about old breeds (Arabs and TBs) being more prepotent. There is still of course much variation in prepotency _within_ these old breeds. Some Arab stallions - and mares - stamp their stock much more strongly than others. 

I know IDs are not as old a breed as Arabs or TBs, of course, but certainly some ID stallions seem to be highly prepotent - Archie being a good example! But I'm woefully ignorant about the breed as a whole - are IDs known for being particularly prepotent?


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## JanetGeorge (2 December 2012)

htobago said:



			Very good point JanetGeorge about old breeds (Arabs and TBs) being more prepotent. There is still of course much variation in prepotency _within_ these old breeds. Some Arab stallions - and mares - stamp their stock much more strongly than others. 

I know IDs are not as old a breed as Arabs or TBs, of course, but certainly some ID stallions seem to be highly prepotent - Archie being a good example! But I'm woefully ignorant about the breed as a whole - are IDs known for being particularly prepotent?
		
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That's very true - some are more likely to stamp their stock than others.  H Tobago DOES seem VERY pre-potent  - I haven't seen a foal by him yet that doesn't have 'that look'!

Some IDs DO stampt their stock - you're right about Archie - I can spot even his grey foals from Raj's across the field!  And Raj seems to stamp his too - one owner of a pure-bred Raj spotted a big grey gelding half obscured by a lorry and though hers had escaped!  She went and introduced herself and asked about the horse's breeding - it was a 3/4 bred Raj x Brook youngster.


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## htobago (2 December 2012)

Maesfen said:



			Where to begin!
Spry, my first mare had two by Embla Statesman, peas in a pod!  Fiver (the yearling in this) is now 22 and still going strong.





Then she had two by Big Connaught (TB) a chestnut and a bay.  Conway Gold won the HIS Sale Show and was top priced 2 yr old there while Jackson was a small bay who has just celebrated his 19th birthday.
Chestnut foal





A bad pic but used for advertising the next year after his win











I've had 4 by Bazaars Texas from 3 different bay TB mares.  Again, all very similar.  This is Joey and Dotty.  Very sadly, my vet lost Joey last weekend when he struck into himself out hunting; to say we're all devastated is an understatement.  Even regarding them all as special in their own way he did have to be the best I had bred; Joey had so much natural talent he was a machine cross country; we had high hopes of him, sadly no more.







I've had 4 by Fairlyn Gemini, 2 different TB mares; so alike it's like looking in the mirror (but sadly no pics)

I've also had 3 by Maurice Minor (ID) from 3 different but similar type mares that are peas in a pod although the filly, Tara is lighter boned.
Bear, working hunter champion and seriously good hunter, jumps anything, this as a 3 yr old before breaking





Tara, yearling earlier this year





Manny,






Now of course, I'm waiting for another H Tobago from Bea to match this one!






Sorry there are so many!
		
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Oh that's so sad about Joey - tragic to lose such a super horse. 

Great to see so many of your very impressive full siblings, and that's a nice pic of Sparks - can't wait to see the 2013 edition!


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## htobago (2 December 2012)

Xmasha said:



			Wow, they are all absolutey stunning. 

Really nothing between yours Ritajennings. Their dam really put a fantastic stamp on them all.

Realitycheck - what gorgeous babies, and so similar

This is very reassuring.

My first foal now 3 1/2 has just gone away for backing, and we are getting some very exciting vibes about him, its early days so i am keeping my excitement under control. 

Shes had another foal by a different stallion,  she has the same fantastic temperament as her brother, nicely put together, but different. Not in a bad way, just different. Just musing with the possibility of using the first stallion again. 

Thanks
		
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I'm a huge fan of Archie's dam too - fabulous mare! Although actually I'm seeing a lot of the sire in the magnificent trio Rita posted as well. Obviously a 'golden cross', quite rightly repeated!

Realitycheck's babies all look wonderful. 

Xmasha it sounds as though the first stallion crossed particularly well with your mare - so although there are no guarantees you'll get an exact replica, it would make sense to use him again. Especially as you've had a chance to see how the first foal has matured, and you are still clearly delighted with him!


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## htobago (2 December 2012)

JanetGeorge said:



			That's very true - some are more likely to stamp their stock than others.  H Tobago DOES seem VERY pre-potent  - I haven't seen a foal by him yet that doesn't have 'that look'!

Some IDs DO stampt their stock - you're right about Archie - I can spot even his grey foals from Raj's across the field!  And Raj seems to stamp his too - one owner of a pure-bred Raj spotted a big grey gelding half obscured by a lorry and though hers had escaped!  She went and introduced herself and asked about the horse's breeding - it was a 3/4 bred Raj x Brook youngster. 

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Sorry - I meant to mention Raj as another example - in fact I asked the question because he and Archie are the 2 ID stallions I am most familiar with, and have seen a lot of photos of their stock. Both seem to stamp them strongly, so I wondered if they are just particularly prepotent individuals or if the breed as whole tends to be quite prepotent.

The focus always tends to be on stallions, but I've come across some mares who seem to produce the same foal no matter which stallion they are bred to. Do you have any super-influential mares like this?


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## Asha (2 December 2012)

htobago said:



			I'm a huge fan of Archie's dam too - fabulous mare! Although actually I'm seeing a lot of the sire in the magnificent trio Rita posted as well. Obviously a 'golden cross', quite rightly repeated!

Realitycheck's babies all look wonderful. 

Xmasha it sounds as though the first stallion crossed particularly well with your mare - so although there are no guarantees you'll get an exact replica, it would make sense to use him again. Especially as you've had a chance to see how the first foal has matured, and you are still clearly delighted with him! 

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The Htobago foals are simply exquisite. He really does produce some amazing youngstock from a variety of different breeds, you must be so proud.


Thank you all for your replies.

Im going to give it a bit more time to see how he matures, and if he proves to be good under saddle. If he does, I will definitely use the same stallion.

Hes just come home from being started, and got good comments from the chap who backed him. But its early days, and im in no rush. Bring on 2013 !


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## htobago (5 December 2012)

Xmasha said:



			The Htobago foals are simply exquisite. He really does produce some amazing youngstock from a variety of different breeds, you must be so proud.


Thank you all for your replies.

Im going to give it a bit more time to see how he matures, and if he proves to be good under saddle. If he does, I will definitely use the same stallion.

Hes just come home from being started, and got good comments from the chap who backed him. But its early days, and im in no rush. Bring on 2013 !
		
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Thank you Xmasha - I'm so pleased that you like Tobago's foals. I have no mares of my own (he is my only horse), so this is all thanks to breeders like Maesfen, The Watcher, Cloppy, JanetGeorge and others who have shown such confidence in him. I'm very grateful!

I know it's early days, but your youngster does sound rather special - are there any photos of him on here?


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## Asha (6 December 2012)

htobago said:



			Thank you Xmasha - I'm so pleased that you like Tobago's foals. I have no mares of my own (he is my only horse), so this is all thanks to breeders like Maesfen, The Watcher, Cloppy, JanetGeorge and others who have shown such confidence in him. I'm very grateful!

I know it's early days, but your youngster does sound rather special - are there any photos of him on here?
		
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Here he is a foal






here he is at 2






Here he is at the beginning of the year







Havent got any recent ones. I tried taking a video while Jonathon was backing him, and unfortunately had pressed pause when i thought it was recording. Useless

He will always be special to me, regardless of whether he turns out to be talented enough for Jonathon to compete, or he ends up as my hack xx


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## woodlander (10 December 2012)

If you get what you wanted...do it again. At Woodlander we have bred the same way up to six times for full siblings. They have always had a common thread but also differences. As a breeder, while you need to keep an eye on fashion and progress, using a stallion that has given you a great youngster already is always a good plan. Although in one case we brd full siblings six times, we very regularly do it twice.


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## JanetGeorge (10 December 2012)

htobago said:



			Sorry - I meant to mention Raj as another example - in fact I asked the question because he and Archie are the 2 ID stallions I am most familiar with, and have seen a lot of photos of their stock. Both seem to stamp them strongly, so I wondered if they are just particularly prepotent individuals or if the breed as whole tends to be quite prepotent.
		
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They both come from very good mare lines.  Archie's dam, Avanti Racey Gracie (I do like Rita's choice of names ) was a lovely mare by Snowford Bellman who produced very consistent stock.  Raj is a butch, masculine version of his maternal grand-dam Glounbrack Lass 2 according to those who knew her.

I wouldn't say the breed overall was especially prepotent - certainly not so much as the TB and Arab - but there have been a number of stallions who really DID stamp their stock!


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