# Prong collars



## MiJodsR2BlinkinTite (6 July 2012)

Go to www.luvmydog.co.uk and look under "prong collars".

Sorry, I don't know how to post the picture/link. Maybe someone else does. But I just wandered onto this website (and no doubt there are others selling these things too) - I was looking for an ordinary bog-standard collar for my two mutts, and I came across this. They're made by Sprenger too, I don't know if its the same people that make horse bits.

I am shocked and appalled. I didn't know these awful things existed, or even that they were legal in the UK. I have e-mailed the company concerned and asked them how they'd feel if they had one of these collars around THEIR necks for more than five seconds. 

One wonders what the RSPCA is doing about this???


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## MissTyc (6 July 2012)

I'm probably going to get my head chopped off, but here goes: neck - line! Ime a correctly fitted and correctly used prong collar is not always a bad thing. Same as a strong bit on a horse -- only as strong as the hands of the handler. 

Some dogs are really rather thick furred and skinned, and will practically choke themselves unless something makes them back off (or worse - take off across a busy road, etc). While I think correct training, like correct schooling in non-snaffle mouthed horses, is the long-term way forwards, sometimes animals arrive with ready-made problems that require a different approach!


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## Kc Mac (6 July 2012)

Agree with above poster 

Having actually felt and worn (me not the dog  ) a prong collar, they are not quite as evil as they look  bearing in mind the 'prongs' are rounded, not sharp as they often look.

I do not think they should be used as a general daily collar.  However in a training scenario by experienced hands, it definitely has its place.

I however would never use a thin choke chain on my dogs as they can do a hell of a lot more damage IMO but many people find them totally acceptable


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## jools123 (6 July 2012)

i taught dog training for many years and at one of the places i taught at the secretary had gordon setters her other half had cheasapeke bay retievers and her son had working springer spaniels. all the dogs were working and trialing dogs and they had a few that wore prong/spike collars when waiting to compete. 
i was really against them until i had a lady in my class who had a german shepherd puppy she bought him training for 3yrs only missing the odd night, he was not good with other dogs but knew to behave himself whentraining and generally when out and about too. BUT he would always go after cats and pulled his owner over a couple of times (once into the road) when cats ran out of gardens, when this lady was pregnant her husband (a fit 6'2'' 18stone) who was used to dogs did all the walking, when the dog pulled him over after a cat it was the last straw and she borrowed one of the collars , the dog pulled in it once and never again  but when ever they tried a normal collar he was bad with the cats again.
I also know with my lurcher if she was a heavier dog i would have considered one of them  for exactly the same reasons I CANNOT make her behave with cats


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## MurphysMinder (6 July 2012)

Couldn't have put it better Miss Tyc. Like many training aids in the right hands there is nothing wrong with them, I have used one in the past , so will put my neck on the line next to you .


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## Dobiegirl (6 July 2012)

I have never used one but dont have a problem with it in the right hands.


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## Dry Rot (7 July 2012)

Dog training is a lost art. Using those collars is a bit like using a chiffney every time you have to walk your horse down the field.


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## Chestnuttymare (7 July 2012)

aren't they illegal in the uk? man here walks his gsd in one. not got good hands, the first i was aware was when i heard his dog screaming from the other end of the park. says it is because the dog is untrainable! i have had a few run ins with him. his poor beautiful dog is never off the lead now, although it is fine with other dogs. probably doesn't want to come back to him.


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## jools123 (7 July 2012)

not illegal to my knowledge but i believe they will be sometime soon
the man sounds like an a**se, but i do believe they have a place

oops the collars not a**ses, there is obviously a place for them


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## Teaselmeg (7 July 2012)

chestnuttymare said:



			aren't they illegal in the uk? man here walks his gsd in one. not got good hands, the first i was aware was when i heard his dog screaming from the other end of the park. says it is because the dog is untrainable! i have had a few run ins with him. his poor beautiful dog is never off the lead now, although it is fine with other dogs. probably doesn't want to come back to him.
		
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Sadly they are not illegal, but they should be.  This story illustrates why prong collars (and shock collars) should not be on public sale. People will look for the quick fix and then slap one of these on, rather than look into proper training. No dog should be trained with pain.   These collars seem to have become more prevelant in this country thanks to a certain Mexican dog torturer on TV, who uses them a lot more that people realise.


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## MurphysMinder (7 July 2012)

They may be more prevalent now but they are certainly not a new idea, one was recommended for a dog my mum took on nearly 50 years ago!  Like all such things they do need to be used reponsibly, I agree with kc mac that I think very fine check chains are far worse, I have seen a dog have a bone in its throat damaged by one of those.


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## CorvusCorax (7 July 2012)

Have used them in the past, for a variety of reasons, given guidance by a trainer, not entered into lightly and saved me from having a dead dog.
Yes, Sprenger that make the bits and stirrups make the are the market leaders in prongers and chokes.
My dogs are not abused and have not died because of the very occasional use of a bit of power steering, if anyone wants to come and watch me train in person or meet my dogs, you are very welcome, if not, don't judge me, thankies  
The first one I used, which was borrowed, I still have, and it is approximately 30 years old - I recall seeing footage of them being used in the 20s.


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## Alec Swan (7 July 2012)

Dry Rot said:



			Dog training is a lost art. Using those collars is a bit like using a chiffney every time you have to walk your horse down the field.
		
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I agree.  I've voiced my opinion on spiked collars before,  and on here,  and my thoughts weren't too well received!  A dog which *"needs"* a spiked collar,  isn't a trained dog,  it's a dog over which the handler has little control.  Better than such a collar,  is the outside of your left foot.  As for people leading up gundogs in Field Trials,  with spiked collars,  I've attended a Trial or two,  and never yet seen such a thing! 

Alec.


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## Alec Swan (7 July 2012)

CaveCanem said:



			.......

.... if anyone wants to come and watch me train in person or meet my dogs, you are very welcome, if not, don't judge me, thankies  

.......
		
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I've only just read your post.  No one has judged you.  There are those who don't agree with the use of spiked collars.  You disagree,  which is fine and your prerogative. 

The OP seems to think that there's a degree of cruelty attached to their use.  I don't agree with that stand point either.  Most dogs which need such a device will all so often learn to accept it as the norm,  and all so often ignore them,  I suspect.

I suspect that as with Electric Collars,  the most experienced (and I'm not amongst them),  *may* have a use for them to establish a specific point and with a specific dog.  I think that the danger arises,  when the novice,  or those lacking in experience think that severe training aids will improve their relationship with their dog,  and that would surprise me if it did.  

Alec.


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## CorvusCorax (7 July 2012)

ITA Alec and was addressing no one in particular. 
Everytime this subject comes up the words 'cruel' 'barbaric' 'torture' are thrown about and it rankles a little.
I do not believe everyone should be able to go out and buy and use one willy nilly.
They do not suit every dog and yes, you can ruin a dog with their incorrect use.

IMO, they should be used as a standby collar, the primary use of which is to break fixation, or for power steering in certain circumstances, not for lazy lead training, it should never be the dog's main collar or used on the dog for life.

He isn't dead. I promise. And has not worn one for years!!!


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## Dry Rot (7 July 2012)

Alec Swan said:



			I agree.  I've voiced my opinion on spiked collars before,  and on here,  and my thoughts weren't too well received!  A dog which *"needs"* a spiked collar,  isn't a trained dog,  it's a dog over which the handler has little control.  Better than such a collar,  is the outside of your left foot.  As for people leading up gundogs in Field Trials,  with spiked collars,  I've attended a Trial or two,  and never yet seen such a thing! 

Alec.
		
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Have you been to many field trials for pointing dogs, Alec? 

I had an interesting correspondence with an American lady who hunted a pack of foxhounds in the States. She asked a simple question that I am still hoping to get a answer to. 

"How is it", she asked, "That these people (i.e. the general public) need an electric collar to control one dog when we can control 20 couple of hounds (i.e. 40 "dogs"!) without one?"

If a dog cannot be controlled without these training "aids", there is something seriously wrong. But then I think everyone knows that or there would not be the constant demands for more legislation.


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## Dobiegirl (7 July 2012)

Dry Rot that is an unfortunate example that you gave of Foxhounds, Foxhounds in the past have run on to railway lines even though they have been called off, have chased cats etc.


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## CAYLA (7 July 2012)

Dobiegirl said:



			Dry Rot that is an unfortunate example that you gave of Foxhounds, Foxhounds in the past have run on to railway lines even though they have been called off, have chased cats etc.
		
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Very good point Dg, im sure those statistics wont be included in the "control" of the dogs  inc the ones that killed an old cat whilst passing through a garden maybe! Im no sure you can compare the training and handling of dogs keps in "out bulidings" and exercised on private land/fields who dont actually get out there in the real world to often and have a job to do. I dont see many farm collies/fox hounds walking through housing estates/on a main road/ on leads passed dogs/people/cars etc and then living in the house with the rest of the family,generally when they re kept like this there become a problem and are rid of pretty quickly.

I don't actually use/never used a prong collar, I walk 10 dogs daily in the real world but I dont compare them to how others handle theirs or how mine behave there are to many variables that just cannot be compared


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## Dry Rot (8 July 2012)

Dobiegirl said:



			Dry Rot that is an unfortunate example that you gave of Foxhounds, Foxhounds in the past have run on to railway lines even though they have been called off, have chased cats etc.
		
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Even so, they will be under better control than the majority of pet dogs!

I wonder how the percentages would stack up compared to pets?

Yes, hounds do occasionally get out of control, but how many pet owners take 40 dogs out for exercise, unleashed, all in one go?


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## jools123 (8 July 2012)

can i point out that if a hound was to be one that got out of control it would be shot, no-one would try to rehabilitate it!!!
so it is a very unfair comparison.


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## Dry Rot (8 July 2012)

jools123 said:



			can i point out that if a hound was to be one that got out of control it would be shot, no-one would try to rehabilitate it!!!
so it is a very unfair comparison.
		
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There is a very obvious reply to that post and if the advice was followed there would be fewer young children in plastic surgery having their faces rebuilt, let alone the cemetery.

Dr Roger Mugford, the canine behaviourist, told me he had a case in his surgery where a prong from one of these collars had entered the trachea. He felt they should be banned. We both agree there are better methods to train a dog. The problem is, as always, to train the owners.


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## s4sugar (8 July 2012)

Dry Rot said:



			There is a very obvious reply to that post and if the advice was followed there would be fewer young children in plastic surgery having their faces rebuilt, let alone the cemetery.

Dr Roger Mugford, the canine behaviourist, told me he had a case in his surgery where a prong from one of these collars had entered the trachea. He felt they should be banned. We both agree there are better methods to train a dog. The problem is, as always, to train the owners.
		
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And I've seen a dog loose an eye through misuse of a Halti (sold by Roger Mugford) as well as dogs with embedded collars or chains. Should these also be banned?

This is a tool and can be a useful last resort if used by someone who knows what they are doing. Unfortunately, like many other tools, it gets misused.


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## jools123 (8 July 2012)

Dry Rot said:



			There is a very obvious reply to that post and if the advice was followed there would be fewer young children in plastic surgery having their faces rebuilt, let alone the cemetery.

Dr Roger Mugford, the canine behaviourist, told me he had a case in his surgery where a prong from one of these collars had entered the trachea. He felt they should be banned. We both agree there are better methods to train a dog. The problem is, as always, to train the owners.
		
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i dont think any of this thread is discusing aggresive dogs!

also working in a vets we see various dogs with injuries/eye infections and neck and back problems from the halti's that Dr Mugford recommendsas it is unatural for a dog to have a sideways pull on their face

and dogs can be hung using a wide collar-so its the hands that hold it not the collar


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## HeatherAnn (8 July 2012)

I think that these collars should not be available to the general public but to qualified or experienced dog trainers with maybe some kind of training course as well. I think for most people they're a quick fix, a way of masking the problem without curing it. I'm sure they work for some people but for most I can imagine it to be a disaster waiting to happen. 

@Dry rot dog's can injure themselves on most things. My dog was hooling round, stood in his bowl in the garden, it tipped up and whacked him. Does that mean we should get rid of water bowls. If it exists you, or an animal can be injured by it.


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## Dobiegirl (8 July 2012)

I dont think prong collars are over common, Ive yet to see one being used, but as I said in the right hands for the right dog they have a use. Dutch gags and the like I do see a lot of being used and not being used properly so I would say they are much more a problem than prong collars will ever be.

I prefer to use a Canny collar on my dogs, I hate Haltis, they ride up to the eyes and can and do cause injuries.

As I said before using Hounds as an example is not right, no one keeps 40 plus dogs together like Hounds, they are fed together,exercised together and are kept as a pack. I dont know of anyone who keeps that amount of pet dogs together.


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## Dry Rot (8 July 2012)

Well, I agree with the OP and don't see much point in arguing about it. 

I don't need these gadgets to train a dog so I suppose I must be doing something right.


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## jools123 (8 July 2012)

if you lived closer i would challenge you prevent my lurcher from actively hunting feral cats
i wish someone could stop her it means at some yards i have worked on i have had to have eyes in the back of my head as well as elsewhere
she is a nightmare, she is ferret tame has never shown an interest but cats 'rock her boat' more than any other animal.


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## Dobiegirl (8 July 2012)

jools123 said:



			if you lived closer i would challenge you prevent my lurcher from actively hunting feral cats
i wish someone could stop her it means at some yards i have worked on i have had to have eyes in the back of my head as well as elsewhere
she is a nightmare, she is ferret tame has never shown an interest but cats 'rock her boat' more than any other animal.

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I think you are a bit like me, a crap trainer my Dobes are great hunters, deer anything really.

On the other hand Ive had other breeds and mongrels which were beautifully behaved, did that make me a good trainer? no we dont always get it right but you just work with the dogs and their drives and if that requires gadgets sobeit.


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## jools123 (8 July 2012)

my two terriers are as good as gold both with drop in full chase of anything from vast distances
i have competed at obedience, my dogs all socialise well and behave when out and about (apart from the cat thing)
he prey drive with cats is a nightmare


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## CAYLA (8 July 2012)

jools123 said:



			if you lived closer i would challenge you prevent my lurcher from actively hunting feral cats
i wish someone could stop her it means at some yards i have worked on i have had to have eyes in the back of my head as well as elsewhere
she is a nightmare, she is ferret tame has never shown an interest but cats 'rock her boat' more than any other animal.

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You hit the nail on the head, not all dogs are the same, be it breed/drive/behavioural traits/back ground/environment (all these factors have to be taken into consideration). Hence my non comparison statement, I dont use gagitry either lol but it does not make me superior, there is a big difference between someone would trains alot of dogs/all breeds/all behaviours with results not just "their own pet dogs" (for example) then proceed to compare them to dogs with severe behavioural issues and the owners/handlers failure to get the same results they did with some non comparitable/sometimes non existent problems. (Im probably going off subject a little) but its kinda my point in most cases


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## EAST KENT (8 July 2012)

But nothing beats the control of twenty couple of hounds,off lead.We puppy walkers train them to the lead,then couples,make them stock proof and reasonably obedient before they return to "big school". 
  Thereafter they learn to copy their educated elders ,initially by being coupled to an oldie. Very few pet dogs are as schooled as a foxhound.


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## CAYLA (8 July 2012)

jools123 said:



			my two terriers are as good as gold both with drop in full chase of anything from vast distances
i have competed at obedience, my dogs all socialise well and behave when out and about (apart from the cat thing)
he prey drive with cats is a nightmare

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You can now wear a badge thats states "I trained my terrier" so everyone every where should beable to do the same as a dog is a dog/terrier is a terrier obs it would be a big badge

By the way im aggreeing with you not against you, incase it did not seem that way im babbling some what, delirious from lack of sleep


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## Dry Rot (8 July 2012)

Yeah, you're right. Some breeds just can't be trained. Jack Russell's for example............!

http://youtu.be/rTN5kTkdvME


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## CAYLA (8 July 2012)

Well I think the point most are making is "they can be trained" using various methods and possibly not to the equal of another
Some huskys can be let of lead (others cannot) this will be down to varying factors (not just the training/handling) 

We can see lots of schutzhund (sp) clips or indeed any other training clips where/could have trained in a prong collar/e collar etc (any other chosen tool), and dont have them on in the clips (I thinks that the thing about you tube clips), they dont really tell you much but do show you a result at the end
Not that im suggesting the jrt was, just a point.


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## MiJodsR2BlinkinTite (8 July 2012)

Here is the reply I have received from www.luvyourdog.co.uk. This is in reply to my e-mail to them, expressing my concern:-


Thank you for contacting us.  The prong collar is less well known in the UK than the USA and Europe where they are sold in pet shops and widely used. As a result there is a great amount of myth, mistruth and negative opinion of the prong collar prevalent within UK dog forums and social networking sites generally by people who have never actually seen the collar and certainly with no experience of their use, however they are very full of opinion and for the most part completely incorrect.

     The prong collar is neither cruel nor barbaric, the design of the prong collar is for a more gentle application of pressure than a choke collar and even a head collar. While it may look quite intimidating the prong collar doesn't pinch or poke the skin, it relies on the bodies natural instinct not to push into points of pressure. It doesn't rely on pain, intimidation, stress or fear and the handler doesn't need to drag or yank on the lead for it to work effectively. Compare that to a head collar which looks quite inoffensive and kind, yet routinely pulls into the eyes, rubs fur off muzzles, damages neck muscles, causes high levels of stress and anxiety... yet is put forward as a gentle alternative to a prong collar when I personally wouldn't ever let a head collar near a dog because they're so dangerous.

     A comment we receive regularly is "how would you like it if one were used on you", the answer is I'm completely indifferent. Over the years myself and the team have tried and tested every one of the prong collars on ourselves, trainers regularly encourage their clients to try the collar on themselves before using the collar on their dog, and we often speak to customers who have done the same. If you anticipate the collar to cause pain and harm based on how it looks then you would be quite surprised to actually handle one and find out it doesn't pinch, nip, poke or hurt in general.  It's extremely unlikely for the collar to cause a dog to become aggressive, the collar itself is a passive tool and aggression would need to be incited by the handler, the collar won't cause that behaviour unless that is the specific intention of the handler and there are easier and more effective ways to encourage aggression than using a collar of any type.

     We supply working dog equipment to a variety of dog sports and disciplines as well as show dogs, family pets and service dogs.  The prong collars are used quite extensively in shutzhund, field trials and gundog work, and by a growing number of dog trainers who have become familiar with their use. Should we have reason to believe the collars were dangerous or abusive we simply wouldn't sell them, just as we don't sell head collars or restricting harnesses.


regards,

Austin Ward,
Customer Service.


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## Foxhunter49 (8 July 2012)

I was against prong collars until I saw and used one.

I brought one back from the USA several years ago.

It was, for some reason, in the back of my car unused. I was in town when a young woman was pulled across the road by a Great Dane going 'after' another dog on my side of the road. She stood as much chance of stopping him as pulling down a telegraph pole with cotton thread. 
She was doing her best to stop him - he was on a flat collar as he had bruised his neck with a choke, and crying. As he went past me I grabbed the lead and hauled. That stopped him. I felt sorry for the woman who was doing her best, I mentioned training classes and she had been attending them regularly since he was a pup. He was now 18 months.  
I offered to help which was gratefully received. I fetched the prong from the car and fitted it. I also used a horse long lead rope.

Luckily the person with the other dog then walked back down the road on the opposite side. Dog saw and took one bound forward. I had the rope over my left hip and up over the right shoulder. I did nothing bar give him enough rope to leap and brace against the leap. He jumped forward and met with resistance. He felt it, he yelped but immediately stopped trying to get after the other dog. 
I walked that dog to heel through a busy High Street and he never pulled once. The owner did the same.

They had spent goodness knows how much with a qualified dog trainer and had an over exuberant, over grown pup who was numb to anything he did not want to do,

I spent about 6 hours with woman, dog and her husband and they had 'got' it. The prong was obsolete. Last time I saw them before husband got posted overseas, was with the dog walking to heel through the High Street carrying a shopping bag, on a flat collar taking no notice of anything going on around them. 

All to often you see dogs with a choke chain on pulling away and gasping for breath or even gargling with their breathing. More damage is done through this than with a prong.

Agreed that there is nothing better than good training, but even then some dogs will not be complicit to what is being asked of them. Having something that makes them realise that you are in control puts you at an advantage, doesn't mean that you have to use it.


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## whisp&willow (8 July 2012)

i too thought that pinch collars were cruel until i saw, and was shown how to use one.  

i have one and use it on a regular basis.  my dog is well trained... but her drive is unbelievable and she can pull a wooden bench with three people sitting on it to get to what she wants.  rather than have a tug of war, or faceplant the pavement when  a cat/dog walks by, i prefer to give her a reminder with her pinch.

she has never been hurt or harmed by it.  think about your horse... if you want it to  move over and lean in it- it leans back.  poke it with a finger and it moves over.

like everything, a pinch is a useful tool when used correctly, and dangerous in the wrong hands.

if it makes me a bad dog owner then fine.  i actually got my pinch from luvmydog, i found  them very reasonable and a good company to deal with.


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## CorvusCorax (9 July 2012)

That's a nice measured response from LuvMyDog - what do you think now MiJods.

Regarding Schutzhund (not sure about KC working trials), seeing as it has been mentioned, the only legal collar allowed during competition is a flat link choke chain on the dead link (with the possible inclusion of a baucher harness in tracking), so basically a flat collar, the dog may not be touched by the handler while the dog is working and obedience and protection are offlead. So whatever training aid or not, used prior to competition, is irrelevant on the day if the dog cannot go in a flat collar.


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