# Low Sugar,Low Starch,High Fibre,High Oil



## Flibble (25 November 2009)

I currently feed Winergy Equilibrium Conditioning and my horse is lovely on it but a 15 kg bag costs £12.65 and last 4 days. 
Can anyone suggest an alternative it MUST be low Starch and low sugar as I have had problems with other feeds.


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## SpottedCat (25 November 2009)

My horse must be on a similar diet and I use topspec balancer, mollichaff high fibre alfalfa and speedibeet - he looks great on it. You could add oil to that if you wanted to, or alternatively use something like Triple Top Up from Badminton Horse Feeds, Equijewel or Outshine. (I'd use the first one personally, or the equijewel).


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## posie_honey (25 November 2009)

AlphaA oil? 
allan &amp; Page Sugar &amp; Cereal Intolerance Diet?
allan &amp; Page fast fibre??


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## TGM (25 November 2009)

As said already a combination of alfalfa, unmollassed beet and oil is good, which can be achieved in various ways.

Alternatively, if you want a complete feed then Spiller's Response Slow Release Cubes are another option, perhaps fed with Alfa A Oil for extra calories.


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## Flibble (25 November 2009)

I am a bit twitchy on the alph-A subject I fed him this last year and it was like Rocket Fuel.

I feel some phone calls coming on


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## SpottedCat (25 November 2009)

I also cannot feed alfa-a or any variation thereof (sends him sky high) - but I can feed other brands of alfalfa - the high fibre one I use is a mix of alfalfa and straw (so has a good selection of long fibres in it which help to buffer against ulcers) and he is fine on it. He has also been fine on Countrywide's own brand alfalfa chaff and something else the loaner fed him (can't remember what).


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## tabithakat64 (25 November 2009)

Speedibeet or Fast Fibre, with Outshine and a balancer.  Is what I've used in the past.  Allen &amp; Page Sugar &amp; Cereal Intolerance Diet or L-mix are also very good.


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## TGM (25 November 2009)

Which Alfa A did you give him?  Some versions such as Original are mollassed, whereas Alfa A Oil is NOT mollassed.  Alternatively you could look at other oil enriched chaffs such as Spiller's Conditioning Fibre, although Alfa A Oil is the highest calorie chaff I have come across yet.


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## sarah0786 (25 November 2009)

I have a spreadhseet of various feeds, I can e-mail it to you if you like? I kept getting told what to put my underweight rescue case horse on various feeds so decided to look at what was in each one and then make my mind up. 

My horse has to be on the same type of diet, he's on Bailey's no.4, speedibeet and alfa a oil, and ad lib hay I'm going to also put him on a balancer though, I'm just trying to work out which one to go for. Before he went onto alfa a oil I was giving him vegetable oil in his feed too but I think it would give him loose stools now. He gets fed 3-4 times a day as I'm trying to put weight on him.


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## SpottedCat (25 November 2009)

[ QUOTE ]
Which Alfa A did you give him?  Some versions such as Original are mollassed, whereas Alfa A Oil is NOT mollassed.  Alternatively you could look at other oil enriched chaffs such as Spiller's Conditioning Fibre, although Alfa A Oil is the highest calorie chaff I have come across yet. 

[/ QUOTE ]

I dunno if it is the mollasses TGM - my horse was on the Alfa-A oil - he was impossible and even reared mid-dressage test (which he has never done before or since, and never threatened to either). I think it is something ab out Alfa-A and whatever is in it - I wondered if ti was the protein levels?


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## posie_honey (25 November 2009)

interestingly enough my super laid back rubber straight bar eggbutt buckle of the rein hunter also went loopy on alfalfa products?! she prefected a capriole on hi-fi!!! and had me off in minutes on alfa-a oil
i also wont touch them now!

ETA - outshine may be worth a try?


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## TGM (25 November 2009)

[ QUOTE ]
My horse has to be on the same type of diet, he's on Bailey's no.4, speedibeet and alfa a oil, and ad lib hay I'm going to also put him on a balancer though, 

[/ QUOTE ] Baileys No 4, although an excellent weight gain feed, is definitely not low starch!  Also, if you are feeding the recommended amount of a cube or mix such as No 4, you don't need to feed a balancer as well, as you are doubling up on vit/mins.


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## Flibble (25 November 2009)

I gave hi Alfa-A Original


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## Flibble (25 November 2009)

Hi yes I would love your spreadsheet. My old horse oh god I must stop bleating on about him is CB cross TB and lived on half a scoop mof cheap nuts twice a day and was fine.


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## sarah0786 (25 November 2009)

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
My horse has to be on the same type of diet, he's on Bailey's no.4, speedibeet and alfa a oil, and ad lib hay I'm going to also put him on a balancer though, 

[/ QUOTE ] Baileys No 4, although an excellent weight gain feed, is definitely not low starch!  Also, if you are feeding the recommended amount of a cube or mix such as No 4, you don't need to feed a balancer as well, as you are doubling up on vit/mins. 

[/ QUOTE ]

Well it's working for him and is lower in starch than no.17 and the mollichaff and sugar beet (molassed) which he was previously getting before I looked into the nutritional content of various feeds, I tried to switch him onto copra stance as that's a great feed but he threw his bucket and wouldn't eat it which isn't what you want with an underweight horse so I had to compromise and put him on no.4 with a bit of 17 mixed in. He has some cheek coming from someone who didn't feed him and turning fussy lol


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## Flibble (25 November 2009)

Well I have had a long chat on the phone to some very nice men one from badminton horse feeds and one from TopSpec.

I am going to price up their options and then think long and hard about wether I change feeds


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## Kallibear (25 November 2009)

Why not find a low starch/sugar, high fibre feed then add your own oil? It'll be much easier! Bear in mind you'll need to feed extra Vit E if feeding a large amount of oil.


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## maggiesmum (25 November 2009)

How about Coolstance Copra, it meets all your requirements. I have found it really good for putting condition on.


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## sarah0786 (25 November 2009)

[ QUOTE ]
How about Coolstance Copra, it meets all your requirements. I have found it really good for putting condition on. 

[/ QUOTE ]

It is a great feed but I'd try and get a sample first though, Toby wouldn't eat it at all, it didn't matter how much I tried to disguise it he threw it all over the place. I now have an almost full bag to deliver to the rescue that recommended it lol, some of the other horses on the yard won't touch it either.


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## rangerover (25 November 2009)

How about Simple Systems?  They have a nutrition line and talk sense.


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## alsxx (25 November 2009)

[ QUOTE ]
Which Alfa A did you give him?  Some versions such as Original are mollassed, whereas Alfa A Oil is NOT mollassed.  Alternatively you could look at other oil enriched chaffs such as Spiller's Conditioning Fibre, although Alfa A Oil is the highest calorie chaff I have come across yet. 

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry to hijack post, but I had wondered for ages why my TB was fine on Alfa-A Oil, yet got very sharp and stressy on normal Alfa-A.....and in the end put it down to some other factor....but now I wonder if it is the molasses.....thanks TGM!


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## peanut (26 November 2009)

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Which Alfa A did you give him?  Some versions such as Original are mollassed, whereas Alfa A Oil is NOT mollassed.  Alternatively you could look at other oil enriched chaffs such as Spiller's Conditioning Fibre, although Alfa A Oil is the highest calorie chaff I have come across yet. 

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry to hijack post, but I had wondered for ages why my TB was fine on Alfa-A Oil, yet got very sharp and stressy on normal Alfa-A.....and in the end put it down to some other factor....but now I wonder if it is the molasses.....thanks TGM! 

[/ QUOTE ]

It's highly likely to have been the problem.  I go from Alpha A Lite (molasses extract) in the summer to Alpha A Oil in the winter always avoiding the regular Alpha A.


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## alsxx (26 November 2009)

Whats the difference between molasses and molasses extract? I noticed all of their products have molasses in except the alfa-a oil and the lite which still has the extract.


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## SirenaXVI (26 November 2009)

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
My horse has to be on the same type of diet, he's on Bailey's no.4, speedibeet and alfa a oil, and ad lib hay I'm going to also put him on a balancer though, 

[/ QUOTE ] Baileys No 4, although an excellent weight gain feed, is definitely not low starch!  Also, if you are feeding the recommended amount of a cube or mix such as No 4, you don't need to feed a balancer as well, as you are doubling up on vit/mins. 

[/ QUOTE ]

Totally agree with this, No 4 definately NOT low in starch - it has lots of barley in it.  Also agree there is no need to feed a balancer if feeding the recommended amount of cubes.


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## SirenaXVI (26 November 2009)

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Which Alfa A did you give him?  Some versions such as Original are mollassed, whereas Alfa A Oil is NOT mollassed.  Alternatively you could look at other oil enriched chaffs such as Spiller's Conditioning Fibre, although Alfa A Oil is the highest calorie chaff I have come across yet. 

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry to hijack post, but I had wondered for ages why my TB was fine on Alfa-A Oil, yet got very sharp and stressy on normal Alfa-A.....and in the end put it down to some other factor....but now I wonder if it is the molasses.....thanks TGM! 

[/ QUOTE ]

Mollases will certainly play a part with some horses, however, there are definately some horses who react to alfalfa in any form.  There is some anecdotal evidence that it is the TYPE of protein in alfa that is the main cause.  Normally protein is not to blame, but there are certain types of protein that do have an adverse effect on some horses.


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## TGM (26 November 2009)

I think you may be confusing Baileys No 4 with Build Up - Build Up is barley-based, Bailey's No 4 is wheat-based - but both are cereals and therefore have quite a high starch content!


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## SirenaXVI (26 November 2009)

[ QUOTE ]
I am a bit twitchy on the alph-A subject I fed him this last year and it was like Rocket Fuel.

I feel some phone calls coming on 

[/ QUOTE ]

Your options are limited to fibre and oil, I love Triple Top Up which is coconut and full fat soya together with Vit E and Selenium, and also about £10 a bag cheaper than Outshine!

Speedibeet is a fab  fibre provider with a really good condition index yet really low in starch and sugar.

It is a shame about his reaction to Alfa, however you could use a chopped dried grass which has similar calcium/protein and DE levels but does not seem to have the same adverse effect on temperament.  I like Ultra Grass (Badminton) or Just Grass (D&amp;H)

You could feed the above and just add a vit/min supplement or Pink Powder which will be much cheaper than a balancer yet provide a good balanced diet.

If you can, try to feed three small meals rather than two, although I know that this is not always possible.


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## SirenaXVI (26 November 2009)

[ QUOTE ]
I think you may be confusing Baileys No 4 with Build Up - Build Up is barley-based, Bailey's No 4 is wheat-based - but both are cereals and therefore have quite a high starch content! 

[/ QUOTE ]

Ahh entirely possible TGM!


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## Flibble (26 November 2009)

Well the current recommendation are :-
From Badminton :

High Fibre Complete Nuggets plus Triple Top up

From Top Spec Cool Condition Cubes plus Lesiure Feed Balancer

Jury is still out on what I change to as I dont want to rock the boat just to save money and Oh dear God Feed choices are a Minefield.

The Pros and Cons of my Current Regime   1 bag with everything he needs in it versus Cost.

I am still pondering what I do.


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## SirenaXVI (26 November 2009)

Yes, if you feed the High Fibre Nuggetts you would not have to feed a vit/min supplement.  They have the added bonus of being supremely palatable, all of mine have them - they are a must have product for me!  I even had to smuggle a bag in to Sirena when she was in horspital as she refused to eat the convalescence mix they tried to give her!

You are quire right, feed is a minefield and as for the prices, without meaning to sound old and decrepit, I remember when it was around £5 a bag!


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## SpottedCat (26 November 2009)

I'd go with the Badminton version - I love topspec products and use them myself, but I get through a bag of balancer a month and it is knocking on for £40 a sack now 
	
	
		
		
	


	




 I daren't change it as I have found a regime which suits him and has not caused the ulcers to recur!


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## Flibble (26 November 2009)

I must admit is appeals to me so my next questions are:

Their website describes the Fibre cubes  for laminitics and good doers  and my big lad is not poor now by any means but isnt a good doer I guess thats why he needs the Triple Top up too?

How much would you as someone who knows the feed give to a 16.3 ISH on Haylage  no decent turnout so he needs to get everything from his haylage/Hard feed. I know I could get this from the supplier but its handy to hear it from someone who actually uses it.


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## LEC (26 November 2009)

Triple Top up lasted about 5/6 weeks on a 17.2hh horse who was being fed for condition. It was about £30 a sack. I think it offered excellent value as lasted longer than Top Spec and Outshine which I have fed previously.


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## bailey14 (26 November 2009)

I take it you are on their feed trial at the moment?  I have just finished the feed trial, I own a 17.1hh WB gelding in light to medium work and was recommended feeding him 3KG a day of the Winergy Equilibrium Lo Calorie feed.  I gave him approx 1.5kg a day instead and it maintained his weight lovely.  A cheaper alternative is Spillers cool fibre which is £9.20 a sack (20KG) and can be fed as a complete feed (again I am only feeding it at half rate) and it's fine.  Anything that is molassed such as Apple Chaff is laden with sugar and therefore makes your horse fat.  My horse was on molassed chaff as he is an incredibly fussy eater but I would never swap back to the molassed stuff now.  Try Spillers Cool Fibre and ring Helen Walker st Spillers on:  01908 576258 or email her on Helen.Walker@effem-equine.com and she will send you a sample.  I hope I am allowed to say that, I am not on commision


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## SirenaXVI (26 November 2009)

[ QUOTE ]
I must admit is appeals to me so my next questions are:

Their website describes the Fibre cubes  for laminitics and good doers  and my big lad is not poor now by any means but isnt a good doer I guess thats why he needs the Triple Top up too?

How much would you as someone who knows the feed give to a 16.3 ISH on Haylage  no decent turnout so he needs to get everything from his haylage/Hard feed. I know I could get this from the supplier but its handy to hear it from someone who actually uses it. 

[/ QUOTE ]


Yes, because you need a low starch diet, most conditioning feeds are extremely high in starch, so that will be why he said the fibre nuggetts.

You would probably have to give around 3-4kg of the nugetts to get all the vits etc, the Triple Top Up I just feed two  mugs a day, (I use an old balancer measure!) you may need to feed more as your chap needs the calories.   It lasts about 6weeks (mare is 16.2), I add a grass chop and speedibeet too.

I would play with the Top Up until you get the mix right, that was what I had to do, in the summer for instance I dropped it to one cup a day, now that the weather has changed she is back on two.


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## Flibble (26 November 2009)

Hi thanks for that. No I am not on the feed trial my lad is on Winergy Condition and it really suits him but he is on 4 kg a day. I tried less and he just did not put on the condition I wanted so a bag at £12.50 lasts between 4 and 5 days (its only 15kg).

He was on Spillers Conditioning Cubes before and was better on them but not as fine as he is on the Winergy.


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## Flibble (26 November 2009)

This is all extremely helpful so if I make a stab in the dark :-

Triple top up at £30 for 6 weeks = £5 per week
Fibre nuggets at £8 for 20kg = about £11 per week

Total £16 per week

Winergy  = £20 to £24 per week


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## SirenaXVI (26 November 2009)

[ QUOTE ]
 .  Anything that is molassed such as Apple Chaff is laden with sugar and therefore makes your horse fat.     
	
	
		
		
	


	





[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry but Apple Chaff is NOT laden with sugar, I used to feed it to a good doer purely because of that, it will most certainly NOT make your horse fat!  You could actually feed it safely to a laminitic it is so low in sugar.   Mollasses IS added to some other straw chaffs, but as they are straw based they are never likely to put condition on.  I would not feed a mollassed chaff out of preferance but I would most certainly not feed it to make a horse fat!


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## TGM (26 November 2009)

[ QUOTE ]
He was on Spillers Conditioning Cubes before and was better on them but not as fine as he is on the Winergy. 

[/ QUOTE ] Is there any particular reason you are against the Spillers Slow Release Cubes?  They are much lower in starch than Spillers Conditioning Cubes (12% as against 20%) so would have thought they might be a good choice for your boy.  I know quite a few people who have used them and have been impressed with the increase in calmness of their horses on them (I'm assuming behaviour is the reason you want low starch, low sugar).


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## K27 (26 November 2009)

I've  switched mine on to Saracen ReLeve Mix in the last month, am impressed with it so far it was actually formulated for horses that tye up, the starch content is very low and they don't need a lot of it either, I've found that my horses are better on low sugar, starch and high fibre, high oil feeds and is working well and relaxed but with enough energy on the Releve.  

Also have one horse on Falcon Oat&amp;Barley free mix which is an all in one conditioning mix and has everything you require- my horse that has been on that looks so shiny, but wil prob end up switching him to the Releve to make it easier.

http://www.falconequinefeeds.co.uk/product_range_oat_barley_free_mix.htm

http://www.saracenhorsefeeds.co.uk/products/40741767/re-leve-performance/ 

Another feed that I have also used and can recommend is a combination of Alfa A lite with spillers slow release cubes.

Have also heard good things about Primero  all in one mix 

http://www.primeroequine.com/

Most of the feed companies make a high oil/high fibre feed, may just be a case of phoning a few of them, have always found them to be helpful!


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## Flibble (26 November 2009)

I'll have a look - just looked they arent a conditioning feed so I am not sure. I have just posted a query with their careline.


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## TGM (26 November 2009)

The trouble is manufacturer's definitions of what is 'low starch' seem to vary a great deal!  The Falcon Oat &amp; Barley Free Mix actually is based on wheat and maize so may not be as 'low starch' as some other 'low starch' feeds (which do not normal contain cereals in any significant degree).

The Releve's starch content is 8-12.5% which is what I would classify as a proper 'low starch' feed.

To the OP, I would suggest not relying purely upon the definition 'low starch' but get a definite starch content from the manufacturer if it is not listed on their website.


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## Flibble (26 November 2009)

Quite right I had a) behavioural problems and b) poor condition.

I'll just add two of my progress pics here :-

The day I bought him August 2008







August 2009 







September 2009







I might try and get a Pic this PM for Comparison as he has changed shape some more. I cant count thats 3  
	
	
		
		
	


	





Yep TGM am on this phase now  starch levels


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## TGM (26 November 2009)

They are not a true conditioning feed, but are more calorific than your standard cubes/mixes.  If you are feeding to *add* condition then you can add extra calories in the form of a high oil chaff or alternatively a high oil supplement (micronised linseed is very cost-effective and highly praised on here, although I haven't tried it myself).

However, looking at your photos I don't think you need to add any more condition at all to the horse, and just need to maintain it now, so moving to a slightly less calorific feed will allow you to do that.


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## Flibble (26 November 2009)

Badminton Horse feeds
High Fibre Nuggets
Sugar 7% Starch 4.3% Energy 9%

Triple Top up
Sugar 6.2% starch 4.3% energy 14.5%


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## TGM (26 November 2009)

That's a very good starch level for the Top Up - I know the starch levels for Outshine and Equijewel (which are similar high oil products) are significantly more than that!

PS: The energy contents should actually be expressed in MJDE/kg rather than percentages though!


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## Flibble (26 November 2009)

Thanks TGM he does look stonkingly good now but I found to my cost in the past year he can lose it as fast as he gains I have found this post so very helpful and will keep you updated with what I do even if I make a  mistake


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## TGM (26 November 2009)

Will be interested to hear how you get on!

(PS: Silly question I'm sure, but I assume he gets as much hay or haylage as he can possibly eat, so enough that there is a little bit left in the morning?)


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## SirenaXVI (26 November 2009)

[ QUOTE ]
That's a very good starch level for the Top Up - I know the starch levels for Outshine and Equijewel (which are similar high oil products) are significantly more than that!

PS: The energy contents should actually be expressed in MJDE/kg rather than percentages though! 

[/ QUOTE ]

DE levels for Nuggetts are 8.8
Top Up 14.5 
	
	
		
		
	


	





ETA:  He does look in fab condition!


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## Flibble (26 November 2009)

Not a silly question as he's nearly 17hh I know he's got enough haylage when I cant see his eyes but the tips of his ears are still showing. 
	
	
		
		
	


	





Seriously he gets enough so that there are just the messy bits in the morning unless I get it completely wrong in the dark and I find that he has enough left for his Tea in the morning.


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## sarah0786 (26 November 2009)

[ QUOTE ]
Not a silly question as he's nearly 17hh I know he's got enough haylage when I cant see his eyes but the tips of his ears are still showing. 
	
	
		
		
	


	





Seriously he gets enough so that there are just the messy bits in the morning unless I get it completely wrong in the dark and I find that he has enough left for his Tea in the morning. 

[/ QUOTE ]

I think he looks great, my horse currently looks like yours  did in August 09 but came to me at the beginning of last month looking far worse, I'm at work so can't put photos up, I will put some up on another thread when I get home.  Have you thought about using baileys outshine, it has micronised linseed in it and oil, I'm looking into putting it in Toby's feed to keep the weight coming on.  It has been discussed on another forum and users of it really rate it, there are photos of a 24 year old that has been on it and she looks fantastic


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## Jericho (26 November 2009)

Am sure you have so many recommendations by now but I really liked the combination of Top Spec Comp balancer, alphabeet or speedibeet and outshine which seems to satisfy your requirements. i changed of it in the summer but will go back onto it once I have finished the rather expensive bucket of vits and mins I bought instead ... and which I dont think is as good by a long way


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## Flibble (26 November 2009)

Yes I have so many options I just met myself trying to sneak in the side door. 
	
	
		
		
	


	





I must admit I dont like too complex a feed regime so I want a solution which is a max of two lots of 'stuff'.


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## Andy80 (26 November 2009)

One of my horses has an adverse reaction to sugars, particularly  anything which is molassed, which, lots of branded feeds appear to be full of. I've done loads of research into sugar intollerance, which it turns out my mare has. It's so bad that one small feed of anythng mollassed makes her dangerous.  She is a Quarterhorse so is very muscular and athletic. Weight gain or loss shows very quickly on her, but, I have found that she does really well on ad lib haylage, not the sort of quality they make for cows, but very mature grass cut late, almost hay standing up, if you know what I mean. I try not to use italian rye grass, just too rich.  Also, I feed total eclipse by simple systems, and thats about it. She gets worked everyday, the shortest hack I do is about 6 miles, a lot longer if she doesn't get turned out the odd day.
Basically, it's a complete package really lots of forage thats not full of sugars, plenty of excersise. As you probably know horses only sleep about 3 hrs a day and normally the rest of the time they spend grazing, hence the ad lib haylage. The excersise is important because they normally walk whilst they graze. It's not normal for them to stand still and eat, but you have to do the best you can.  I am wary of lots of feed companies advice lines because they are after all in buisness to sell feed. The pictures of your horse are really good, he looks nice, you can see the difference. good luck.


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## sarah0786 (27 November 2009)

[ QUOTE ]
Yes I have so many options I just met myself trying to sneak in the side door. 
	
	
		
		
	


	





I must admit I dont like too complex a feed regime so I want a solution which is a max of two lots of 'stuff'. 

[/ QUOTE ]

I know what you mean, I used to have 4 bins of feed along with bodybuilder, garlic, oil and cod liver condiment. Now I'm down to three bins and garlic but will probably get outshine to add into his feed.


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## AngieandBen (1 December 2009)

But Apple Chaff is 17% sugar?! according to their website, whereas most low sugar chaffs are only 5% or less ( although Good Doer is 8%!!)

I would rather give any horse an oil based chaff instead of one with mollasses in


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## criso (1 December 2009)

[ QUOTE ]
But Apple Chaff is 17% sugar?! according to their website, whereas most low sugar chaffs are only 5% or less ( although Good Doer is 8%!!)

I would rather give any horse an oil based chaff instead of one with mollasses in 

[/ QUOTE ]

Is that because of added molasses or is it because of the natural sugars in the apples.
I have never tried it for that reason, i assumed anything with lots of apples in would be high in sugar.


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## Flibble (1 December 2009)

Hi Y'all I am absoluty now bamboozled and flummoxed by all the choices and have narrowed it down to 2 feed supplies based simply on the I cant cope mechanism.

I am weighing up the pro's and cons between :

Spillers: Conditioning Fibre plus High Fibre Cubes

Badminton :  High Fibre Nuggets plus Triple Topup

Just a reminder it is a conditioning feed I want but it must be low in Sugar and Starch.


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## tabithakat64 (1 December 2009)

What about feeding a combination of Triple Top-Up and Spillers conditioning fibre?
I think there are more suitable feeds out there, have you contacted Allen &amp; Page or Baileys?


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## snoozles (1 December 2009)

Hi, I feed speedibeet, boring plain chaff and depending on who its for either badminton fibre nuts or friendship estates (or other make) grass nuts which come in around this Protein: 16%
Oil: 3.5%
Fibre: 25%
Digestible Energy: 10-11 MJ/Kg  
Approximate Dry Matter: 90%

I soak the grass nuts for 2 hours before feeding. The horses that are old or need more support do well on the grass nut addition. I've used the badminton fibre nuts and think they are great on either tense warmblood or fatty native type. I've had no problems with grass nut feeding through the winter. I try to keep things simple and add in a balancer, or whatever is needed depending on who it's for. I need to keep my feed bills low as poss. Hope this helps - very happy indeed with the badminton fibre nuggets


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## Walrus (1 December 2009)

Another shout for the Spillers Response Slow Release Cubes as I really think they are the dog's wotsits! Quick breakdown:

Spillers Slow Release: DE: 11MJ/Kg
                                 Starch: 12%

Spillers Condition Cubes: DE: 12MJ/kg
                                     Starch: 20% (eek)

Winergy Equilibrium Conditioning: DE: 12.4MJ/kg
                                                  Starch: 10%

FWIW I would pop him on the Spillers Slow Release Cubes, add a slosh of oil and stuff him full of haylege and see how you go. Make sure you're feeding the recommended amount of cubes (by weight) for a boy of his size as he is big and if possible split into 3 feeds a day.

Good Luck.


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## TGM (2 December 2009)

[ QUOTE ]
I am weighing up the pro's and cons between :

Spillers: Conditioning Fibre plus High Fibre Cubes

Badminton :  High Fibre Nuggets plus Triple Topup

Just a reminder it is a conditioning feed I want but it must be low in Sugar and Starch. 

[/ QUOTE ] Of those two I would definitely go for the Badminton option.  The Spillers option is actually LESS conditioning than the Slow Release Cube/Conditioning Fibre which you have already rejected as not being conditioning enough!  Spiller's High Fibre Cubes are 8.4 MJDE/kg and the Conditioning Fibre is 11 MJDE/KG, so depending on what proportion you feed the two in the overally MJDE/kg is always going to be significantly less than 11 MJDE/kg.  Whereas with the Slow Release Cubes being 11 MJDE/kg and the Conditioning Fibre being 11 MJDE/kg you know the overall bucket feed ration is 11 MJDE/kg.

With the Badminton option the High Fibre Nuggets are 8.8 MJDE/kg but Triple Top Up is 14.5 MJDE/kg, so will pull the calorie content of the ration up if feed in generous enough amounts.

The only trouble with ringing feed manufacturers is that they will usually recommend their own products, so you won't get suggestions like feeding Slow Release Cubes with micronised linseed (20 MJDE/kg) or Triple Top Up which would be my choice in your circumstances.


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## Flibble (2 December 2009)

If I was clever enouh I could make millions from ComparetheHorseFeed.com and HorsefeedingSupermarket.com

Could one of you tell me what is in Spillers Slow release Ingredients are please??


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## TGM (2 December 2009)

[ QUOTE ]
Could one of you tell me what is in Spillers Slow release Ingredients are please?? 

[/ QUOTE ]

Wheatfeed, Soya hulls, Oatfeed, Rice bran, Molasses, Sunflower extract, Calcium carbonate, Soya oil, Salt, Vitamin mineral premix


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## Flibble (2 December 2009)

Uh oh MOLASSES!! Dynamite in our digestion.


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## TGM (2 December 2009)

But there is also molasses in the Winergy! (And I suspect in most of the other products you are thinking of trying!)

Here are the ingredients for the Spillers High Fibre Cubes, for example:

Oatfeed, Wheatfeed, Nutritionally improved straw, Sunflower extract, Molasses, Calcium carbonate, Hipro soya, Vegetable oil, Salt, Vitamin &amp; mineral premix, Dicalcium phosphate


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## Flibble (2 December 2009)

Oh TGM come with me and sort it out for me I am now going insane.

So if I went for slow release cubes and Triple top up how much would it cost to feed him ??

Goes away to calculate.


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## TGM (2 December 2009)

At the moment you are feeding Winergy Condition and a 15kg bag lasts you 4 days at a cost of £12.65 a bag, so £3.16 a day, £22.12 a week.  If a bag lasts 4 days you are feeding 3.75kg of Winergy (12.4 MJDE/kg) a day which gives 46.5 MJDE a day. 

I've tried to use reasonably round amounts, so the first example doesn't quite equal 46.5 MJDE/kg, but nearly!

Ration 1:

3.5kg Slow Release cubes provides 38.5 MJDE plus 0.5kg Triple Top Up provides 7.25 MJDE = 45.75 MJDE a day

Slow Release cubes = £9.99 for 20kg.  Triple Top Up £30 for 20kg.  So total of £2.50 a day, £17.50 a week.

Ration 2: 

3.5kg Slow Release cubes provides 38.5 MJDE plus  0.4kg Micronised Linseed provides 8 MJDE = 46.6 MJDE a day.

Charnwood Milling Linseed (20 MJDE/kg, 3.75% starch) 25kg for £31.42 (inc P&amp;P).   Total cost of cubes and linseed = £2.25 a day, £15.75 a week.

Hope my maths is OK - did that in a hurry as meant to be doing other things!

ETA: You'd probably want to feed a smaller quantity of linseed, and a slightly higher quantity of cubes in the second example, but will still work out around a similar price.


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## Rouletterose (2 December 2009)

Saracen Re-leve fantastic look it up on their website, it's about £12.00 per bag, but I only give two mugfulls a day with non mollassed mollichaff....Marksway clamer one, it's fantastic and lasts a long time


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## Flibble (2 December 2009)

QR I used to  be this clever once - Thanks


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## TGM (2 December 2009)

Too late to edit my post above - a smaller amount of linseed would be more realistic:

3.75 kg cubes (41.25 MJDE) plus 0.25kg linseed (5 MJDE) = 46.25 MJDE at a cost of £2.18 a day (the cubes are a cheaper source of calories than the linseed).


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## PennyJ (2 December 2009)

Flibble - my molasses intolerant pony could cope with the Spillers High Fibre Cubes, a lot of pony nuts sent him evil and loopy, but those ones didn't.  Just a possibility for you...


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## Flibble (2 December 2009)

Would you believe it I have now been recommended to use Allen and Page Calm and Condition higher in starch but apparently someone uses it for all their youngstock and swears by it.


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## TGM (3 December 2009)

If you ask about Calm &amp; Condition on here you will get a range of responses - some people swear by it, but others report their horses were anything but calm on it!

The trouble is, I suspect, horses have different sensitivity to ingredients - so what might be a low enough starch level for some, is too much for others.


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