# 4CYTE ?



## sputnik (18 September 2019)

Hello. For anyone who has used 4CYTE Epitalis Gel, what are your opinions? All the reviews I've read say it's marvellous, but I'm not sure they are unbiased. TIA.


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## Xtra (19 September 2019)

sputnik said:



			Hello. For anyone who has used 4CYTE Epitalis Gel, what are your opinions? All the reviews I've read say it's marvellous, but I'm not sure they are unbiased. TIA.
		
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My vets are recommending them but obvious they are a bit one sided.  Someone on my yard bought it so will ask how they are getting on as if the blurb is true it sounds ideal for my mare


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## hopscotch bandit (19 September 2019)

I was recommended this by my vet.  I looked into it in quite a bit of detail and asked various liveries and friends and also my physio friend who said she knew of horse who had been on it and it had been effective.  Trouble is its best used in conjunction with normal treatment, i.e. steroid injections which is what most people do, so who knows whether its the gel or the steroid that is working.

A friend had used it on her horse but for some reason hadn't used it consistently - she seemed to be under the impression it could be used as and when needed which obviously isn't the case as it has to be given daily on a maintenance dose after the loading dose.  So she'd hadn't really bothered with it long term but felt that during the time she'd used it her horse had improved (spavin).

When I looked into it I found that I would be spending quite a lot of money every month because my horse was way over the 500kg horse weight that they give in their dosage figures.   The cost was prohibitive to me when I took into account cost of the daily bute and supplements I am already using.  It's around Â£90 for 250ml and lasts 62 days based on a 500KG horse (mine is way over this weight) - even with the 500kg horse its about Â£1.40 per day. I believe it's cheaper if you buy a bigger volume though.

I know its ingredients are plant based and its effective for cartilage repair and pain relief.  They have had some exciting results with it or so they say.  Not sure how much research has gone into it though.


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## sputnik (19 September 2019)

Xtra said:



			My vets are recommending them but obvious they are a bit one sided.  Someone on my yard bought it so will ask how they are getting on as if the blurb is true it sounds ideal for my mare
		
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Thank you. Just wondering why your vet would be one sided  - do they sell it?


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## sputnik (19 September 2019)

hopscotch bandit said:



			I was recommended this by my vet.  I looked into it in quite a bit of detail and asked various liveries and friends and also my physio friend who said she knew of horse who had been on it and it had been effective.  Trouble is its best used in conjunction with normal treatment, i.e. steroid injections which is what most people do, so who knows whether its the gel or the steroid that is working.

A friend had used it on her horse but for some reason hadn't used it consistently - she seemed to be under the impression it could be used as and when needed which obviously isn't the case as it has to be given daily on a maintenance dose after the loading dose.  So she'd hadn't really bothered with it long term but felt that during the time she'd used it her horse had improved (spavin).

When I looked into it I found that I would be spending quite a lot of money every month because my horse was way over the 500kg horse weight that they give in their dosage figures.   The cost was prohibitive to me when I took into account cost of the daily bute and supplements I am already using.  It's around Â£90 for 250ml and lasts 62 days based on a 500KG horse (mine is way over this weight) - even with the 500kg horse its about Â£1.40 per day. I believe it's cheaper if you buy a bigger volume though.

I know its ingredients are plant based and its effective for cartilage repair and pain relief.  They have had some exciting results with it or so they say.  Not sure how much research has gone into it though.
		
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Thank you for your reply. Yes, it does seem rather costly. My horse is not being treated for anything, so I was looking into using it just to give her joints some extra support.


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## hopscotch bandit (19 September 2019)

sputnik said:



			Thank you for your reply. Yes, it does seem rather costly. My horse is not being treated for anything, so I was looking into using it just to give her joints some extra support.
		
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Probably a better option would be to save your money and instead put a smaller amount in a contingency fund in case her joints should need any treatment in the future. 
Or consider buying a joint supplement that has a proven scientific background (says she who uses an EA Â£18 tub of glucosamine! lol)


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## PaintPonies (19 September 2019)

I am using this on my horse on vet recommendation. He had a lameness workup and had subtle lameness in his right hind (1/5, if that, although more like 2/5 after flexion). I had my 'not quite right' suspicions for a little while and vet physio confirmed lameness and suggested work-up. Didn't x-ray as strong suspicion of hock synovitis/arthritis and regardless of x-ray results would have gone with conservative treatment initially. We did do nerve blocks which showed problem was higher than fetlock.

Anyway started on a course of the 4cyte Epiitalis Gel. Horse weighs 600kg but just used the regular 8ml/day loading dose for 14 days then reduced to maintenance dose of 4ml/day. Went back to vet just before we finished the pack and much to my delight he trotted up sound. One or two iffy steps after flexions but even sound horses will often do that. Needless to say I will now be keeping him on the maintenance dose. The benefit of the 4cyte is that as well as treating his 'bad' hock it will also be treating the whole horse. 

My horse has white hair and pink eyelids around one eye which is always a bit weepy and interestingly that has also improved a bit since he's been on the 4cyte. I presume this is because of the anti inflammatory effect.


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## SEL (19 September 2019)

I tried it on both my arthritic horses and couldn't see any obvious difference - I'd rather spend the money on danilon!


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## Xtra (19 September 2019)

INteresting as my vet suggested it as an alternative to danilon when i suggested it . Its for a horse who just suffers various small issues rather than a biggie but would benefit to a bit of exercise


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## LeneHorse (23 September 2019)

My horse has just started on this on vets recommendation (common theme here?). She is not on bute/danilon and has never had steroid injections due to having cushings and the danger of the steroids triggering laminitis. So if there is any improvement in her stiffness it will be down to the 4CYTE. I will keep you posted. Re the cost she is already costing me a fortune for prascend, so what's another Â£1.40 a day  - its less than the price of a cappuccino if you like to think of it that way.


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## sputnik (23 September 2019)

PaintPonies said:



			I am using this on my horse on vet recommendation. He had a lameness workup and had subtle lameness in his right hind (1/5, if that, although more like 2/5 after flexion). I had my 'not quite right' suspicions for a little while and vet physio confirmed lameness and suggested work-up. Didn't x-ray as strong suspicion of hock synovitis/arthritis and regardless of x-ray results would have gone with conservative treatment initially. We did do nerve blocks which showed problem was higher than fetlock.

Anyway started on a course of the 4cyte Epiitalis Gel. Horse weighs 600kg but just used the regular 8ml/day loading dose for 14 days then reduced to maintenance dose of 4ml/day. Went back to vet just before we finished the pack and much to my delight he trotted up sound. One or two iffy steps after flexions but even sound horses will often do that. Needless to say I will now be keeping him on the maintenance dose. The benefit of the 4cyte is that as well as treating his 'bad' hock it will also be treating the whole horse.

My horse has white hair and pink eyelids around one eye which is always a bit weepy and interestingly that has also improved a bit since he's been on the 4cyte. I presume this is because of the anti inflammatory effect.
		
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Thank you for your reply. I hope your horse continues to improve. I think I'm going to try it on my girl.ðŸ™‚


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## sputnik (23 September 2019)

LeneHorse said:



			My horse has just started on this on vets recommendation (common theme here?). She is not on bute/danilon and has never had steroid injections due to having cushings and the danger of the steroids triggering laminitis. So if there is any improvement in her stiffness it will be down to the 4CYTE. I will keep you posted. Re the cost she is already costing me a fortune for prascend, so what's another Â£1.40 a day  - its less than the price of a cappuccino if you like to think of it that way.
		
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Fingers crossed for you. X


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## whiteflower (24 September 2019)

I used it on a horse that was sound but previously shown mild changes in hocks. No difference whatsoever the only positive was he liked the taste of it.


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## First Flame (24 September 2019)

I've been using it for over a year now and it has been fantastic for my 24 year old with various issues.  She was intermittently lame last summer in front and we'd tried steroid injection which only temporarily helped.  I love a good supplement so thought I'd give this a go and so glad I did as she has been fantastic on it, much more comfortable and my physio even noticed much better movement in her back since she'd been on it.  I do believe from the reviews I've read that it either works or it doesn't, lol but based on my experience I noticed a difference on the first on packet (I've owned her 20 years so know her like the back of my hand) so one packet might be worth a try


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## sputnik (24 September 2019)

First Flame said:



			I've been using it for over a year now and it has been fantastic for my 24 year old with various issues.  She was intermittently lame last summer in front and we'd tried steroid injection which only temporarily helped.  I love a good supplement so thought I'd give this a go and so glad I did as she has been fantastic on it, much more comfortable and my physio even noticed much better movement in her back since she'd been on it.  I do believe from the reviews I've read that it either works or it doesn't, lol but based on my experience I noticed a difference on the first on packet (I've owned her 20 years so know her like the back of my hand) so one packet might be worth a try 

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Thank you for sharing your experience. I will give it a go! X


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## Leo Walker (24 September 2019)

If you look at past threads I looked into it and its basically just VERY expensive thuja oil I think. I cant remember off hand, but I've definitely commented a few times previously


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## sputnik (24 September 2019)

Leo Walker said:



			If you look at past threads I looked into it and its basically just VERY expensive thuja oil I think. I cant remember off hand, but I've definitely commented a few times previously
		
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Ok. I don't know much about thuja oil, but I will look it up. Thank you.


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## DSB (25 September 2019)

Great for dogs,Labrador and ParsonJRT.


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## Reacher (25 September 2019)

whiteflower said:



			I used it on a horse that was sound but previously shown mild changes in hocks. No difference whatsoever the only positive was he liked the taste of it.
		
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If your horse was sound before then it would be difficult to tell a difference?


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## Hormonal Filly (25 September 2019)

A friend recommended it to me, she said its excellent but worked out at Â£60 per month! 

Would love to know whats in it..


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## Leo Walker (25 September 2019)

The oil extract of the seed of Biota Orientalis is put through a proprietary process to form Epiitalis. It is then simply added to a small quantity of Soya Oil gel and some apple flavouring for palatability to form Epiitalis Forte gel.
		
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Biota Orientalis is  tree. I cant imagine they are doing anything magical to it and you can get it in supplement form from different places already for people and dogs. I imagine if you look around you would find it much cheaper.


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## PaintPonies (25 September 2019)

These may be of interest - 
https://www.vettimes.co.uk â€º article â€º equine-joint-supplements
https://fenlandzhealth.co.uk/pages/epiitalis-the-science


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## Reacher (26 September 2019)

The most recent study appears to be unpublished- so no peer review there!
I would be grateful if someone biologically minded can translate the mechanism by which it is supposed to work.


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## Reacher (26 September 2019)

This is the claim: "proliferate chondrocyte cells (the main cells in cartilage) which actively 'tips the balance' back in favour of the production of healthy cartilage instead of degeneration
suppress the chemicals responsible for poor joint health."
My  crude understanding is, I gather the oil extracted from the thuja seeds has essential fatty acids (like fish oil ) so 4cyte reduces inflammation like fish oil etc. Does this  supposedly help proliferation of chondrocyte cells? Is  there anything unique about it that fish oil and other supplements high in essential fatty acids don't do?
Sorry my biology is very basic


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## whiteflower (28 September 2019)

Reacher said:



			If your horse was sound before then it would be difficult to tell a difference?
		
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Its marketed that it improves movement, not that it will make a lame horse sound. My horse was 'stiff' but not lame but both my vet and I saw no improvement whatsoever .


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## skint1 (28 September 2019)

I bought some for my horse, he hates it and looked quite baleful about having to eat it, so I am going to try and sell it if I can.


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## Leo Walker (28 September 2019)

Reacher said:



			The most recent study appears to be unpublished- so no peer review there!
I would be grateful if someone biologically minded can translate the mechanism by which it is supposed to work.
		
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If you look up biota orientalis theres quite a bit of peer reviewed research indicating it does work. I've not read more than the abstract of a couple though so no idea how well done they were etc


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