# Toe dragging in trot - anyone else had this experience?



## exracehorse (19 May 2013)

A bit of history, bought an ex racehorse and had a full 5* vetting done which he passed with flying colours including very good flexion test results. When we got him home, noticed he was toe dragging (rear feet only) in trot on the roads. Immdiately rung up the vet with my concerns and he dismissed it and said all was fine when he done the checks. I had his back looked at but, was told it may be due to needing more muscle in the rear end. We then had to turn him way as he had a bad accident so, never really got to the route of the problem. He has been back into work now for some time but, is still toe dragging. I have had his back looked at again with another visit due next month. He is fine in walk and even canter, goes over trotting poles and small jumps. Doing lots of grid work etc and power walking on hacks to increase top line etc. When you watch him trotting in the sand school, the hoof goes up ok but when it comes back down drags through the sand, you can see the sand kicking up in the air. When on a hack, if I do any trotting, which I am reluctant to do, you can hear his hooves hitting the tarmac and there is definite squaring on my return, its not toe dragging in the case that there are scuff marks up the hoof but, the bottom of his hooves square where he is hitting the ground. He is barefoot all round. But, was doing it when we had him and he was shod on all 4. I have looked on the internet and of course, its a worry as wobblers, bone spavins etc all come up. Can a horse just be a 'toe dragger'?  No lameness, no heat or swelling on the hocks. Is not reluctant to work and is very forward going. Sometimes I can feel him slip from behind when in walk, if not tracking up properly. It doesn't make any difference if trotted in an outline or on the end of a buckle. My instructor couldn't see any problems when I spoke to her about it. I am having his back re checked on 5th June but, I guess the next point would be to have a vet out.


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## TheMule (19 May 2013)

How big is he?
It can be an indication of an unwillingness to flex so I personally would have him checked over. It can though just be a sign that he's a bit slow behind and needs to be educated in how to use his hindleg quicker, which will imrpive with strength


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## exracehorse (19 May 2013)

TheMule said:



			How big is he?
It can be an indication of an unwillingness to flex so I personally would have him checked over. It can though just be a sign that he's a bit slow behind and needs to be educated in how to use his hindleg quicker, which will imrpive with strength
		
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He is a 15.2 hands TB - when he is in the field and pratting around and getting excited, then he lifts those dam legs up. Its so frustrating. We are doing some really good flat work, working on transitions etc, his balance is much better now and is softer on the hand. The impulsions on the trot work are great, buts its like he is still dragging from the rear end. I have had his back looked at twice now and another visit due next month. I just worry in case its something I am missing.


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## Queenbee (19 May 2013)

exracehorse said:



			He is a 15.2 hands TB - when he is in the field and pratting around and getting excited, then he lifts those dam legs up. Its so frustrating. We are doing some really good flat work, working on transitions etc, his balance is much better now and is softer on the hand. The impulsions on the trot work are great, buts its like he is still dragging from the rear end. I have had his back looked at twice now and another visit due next month. I just worry in case its something I am missing.
		
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I've had a bit of a worry with this with Ben... He was the same, fine in the field, dragged both hinds in trot under saddle.  Now he is strengthening and working properly its just one hind and only occasionally and this is getting less and less... I've just put it down to weakness and we are working.


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## TandD (19 May 2013)

my mares a little bigger - 17.3, but drags both back toes.
she is ok in the strenght department and when she wants to pick up her feet i.e. bit up for it or going over poles, she does it beautifully!

i just think she needs to become even stronger, learn to sit back more, and become a bit quicker behind.
if it keeps happening we will get the vet, but atm i have no worries...ive even seen a GP horse drag its toes!!!!


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## Sare (19 May 2013)

With mine it was spavins.  They're better with work, hes managed correctly, he's had steroids injections occasionally and he's looking better than ever and still manages to jump some pretty decent fences!  It's not a bleak outlook.  I'd get his hock x-rayed though so you know what you're dealing with


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## Brightbay (19 May 2013)

Mine does it too - 17hh but a slow walker.  If we trot when out, he squares his toes.  He does have some sacro-iliac/stifle issues as well, but squares both toes equally.  We do lots of hill work - he still does it.

If it's any consolation he has never damaged his back hooves (he's barefoot also) - he never drags them to the extent that it goes past the waterline, he basically just takes every bit of excess off the hoof and then they stay at that point.  I can round the toes with a rasp if I want but it doesn't bother me any longer.

It has been suggested to me that lots of lateral work will help, so we leg yield and shoulder-in on hacks.  Like yours, he is lovely over trotting poles and his movement is superb when he's a bit excited 

So I don't worry about it too much any more.


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## exracehorse (19 May 2013)

Thank you all, if he is just a toe dragger then, although a pain, not the end of the world (although I still don't understand how he passed a 5* vetting!), I am having someone out to watch him being ridden and then shall go over him and check his back etc, but each time I have had his back looked at, it has not shown any real problems, just some tension and to do the old carrot tricks etc. I have had two well recommended back specialists out.


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## mandwhy (19 May 2013)

Don't think you said how old he is?


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## exracehorse (19 May 2013)

he is just 9 years old


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## mandwhy (19 May 2013)

Hmm probably not growing issues then, my horse trips but more on the front due to being babyish, not concentrating and ending up on the forehand!


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## Booboos (19 May 2013)

Freddy has always toe dragged and we've never been able to find a reason. He was 5 when I got him, he is 11 now and he does it less but he still does it.


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## deoni (19 May 2013)

When my horse was dragging his toe, his pelvis was out. though he was dragging it in walk too.


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## Archiepoo (19 May 2013)

my horse did this until i started doing belly lifts and carrot stretches everyday ,now hes much stronger  and more flexible  he doesnt do it.
 the thing that got me thinking was if he doesnt do it when hes pratting about in the field -but does it under saddle ,then theres an issue with the horse being strong enough to carry the rider


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## Amo (20 May 2013)

My TB did this and after numerous vet visits, xrays etc I got a physio out (with vets agreement) It was all down to the way he was working his muscles, basically he was weak behind, after a few months of physio treatment he doesn't do it anymore, if he has more than a couple of weeks off work though he reverts back to toe dragging so I have to ensure I keep on top of it.

Would suggest getting a physio to check him over.

Good luck x


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## Ginger Bear (20 May 2013)

My mums tb did do it and vet told us to work her to build muscle in hind end etc etc, a rehab vet later found that it was due to a dipped sacrum probably from her racing days causing her stifle inflammation. She was so stiff that she couldnt actually work properlyShe was rehabbed with corrective riding etc & doesn't do it anymore.


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## exracehorse (20 May 2013)

He has been looked at twice now, with two very experienced back specialists and another visit is due on 5th June. In theory, he should be working properly now he is being schooled on a regular basis, is working well etc. I know we have a lot more to do. I just have a gut feeling that something is not right. If he was showing lameness, or there was heat/swelling in his hocks etc, then it would be different but, its as if he doesn't even know or worry about dragging those back toes. And why can he canter ok and yet struggles to pick them up in trot. He toe drags on the lunge line as well.


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## SVMel (20 May 2013)

I rode an anglo arab for about 15 years who did this in front. Never solved it, eventually found out he had develped arthritis in his withers but didn't have that from the start of me riding him so wasn't that.  Best he ever was came after he had accupunture, but still dragged them.


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## Ginger Bear (20 May 2013)

exracehorse said:



			He has been looked at twice now, with two very experienced back specialists and another visit is due on 5th June. In theory, he should be working properly now he is being schooled on a regular basis, is working well etc. I know we have a lot more to do. I just have a gut feeling that something is not right. If he was showing lameness, or there was heat/swelling in his hocks etc, then it would be different but, its as if he doesn't even know or worry about dragging those back toes. And why can he canter ok and yet struggles to pick them up in trot. He toe drags on the lunge line as well.
		
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Ours toe dragged worse on the lunge than any other time. We use Donna Blinman equine rehab for our horses. Based in Newmarket, equine vet & osteopath, there's nothing she hasn't been able to fix or improve with ours yet. We previously used different vets, physios, back people etc.. Now unfortunately she's the only one I go to.


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## exracehorse (20 May 2013)




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## exracehorse (20 May 2013)

exracehorse said:










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He is learning to flex no and soften, especially compared to before!, shall try and find photos of him with the sand kicking up


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## exracehorse (20 May 2013)

before


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## exracehorse (20 May 2013)

Look at the hind leg. The toe goes up ok but drags when it comes down. Yet, in canter, he bounces along. OK, could do with more work on the flatwork but, he isn't going along flat with his head in the air.


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## exracehorse (20 May 2013)

VIDEO 

You can see the sand being kicked up in trot.


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## exracehorse (20 May 2013)

exracehorse said:



			VIDEO 

You can see the sand being kicked up in trot. 








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Its not working, how do I put a video link on? Its on photo bucket?


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## exracehorse (20 May 2013)

video link wont work


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## Annagain (20 May 2013)

My share horse is 17 and has dragged his toes hacking all his life. He'll do a lovely dressage test (usually 65+ and occasionally over 70. Only at unaffiliated prelim and the odd novice, but still ) and never does it in the school, just out hacking. He's had vet checks regularly although not specifically for this, and had his back checked regularly too and he's always fit as a fiddle with no problems. Nobody's ever mentioned a weakness anywhere (although we've never really asked as not too bothered about it. Am starting to wonder if I should now seeing some of these answers - but if he's got to 17 with no major problems, we must be doing ok!) 

We've just put it down to him being a bit lazy on hacks. He goes forward ok, but doesn't use himself properly and to be honest I see it as chill out time so don't get too worried about it. It can be a bit disconcerting when you see sparks coming off his shoes though


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## be positive (20 May 2013)

He could just be slow behind, as a racehorse he would have done little trot work not much would have been expected of him as long as he could gallop so the muscles used for trotting would not have been built up as much as the canter/ gallop ones. 
I am currently rehabbing a horse that injured a hind leg, he spent 4 months on box rest and when he came back to work he was really dragging the toe as if he had forgotten how to use it, I have spent loads of time walking him over random poles, some raised, some flat, varied distances etc, mine can only walk for now but the improvement has been really good, you can almost see his brain working to try and pick up the foot and suss out the odd distances, the toe dragging has just about gone in walk and now he is doing a little trot work I hope it will follow that he will pick up in trot.
 I know yours has not had an injury but it could be worth trying to reeducate both his brain and muscles with the daily use of poles, the other exercises I have been doing on the ground also help, turning tightly so they pick up and step under as they do at vetting, I use a schooling whip to gently remind him and going backwards also coordinates the diagonal movement required for trotting.


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## exracehorse (20 May 2013)

if I could post the video link, you would see, it just shows the video as a photo, i.e. the first frame, Can you post videos on this site?


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## exracehorse (4 June 2013)

Just an update, 3rd back person coming out tomorrow at 5pm. I have spoken to my vet today and updated him. Next port of call is flexion tests, and nerve blocks. Agreed it could be bone spavins, weak stifles, the list really is endless or, could just be weak from behind. Athough, after so much schooling and power walking on hacks, he should really be improving and not staying the same. Sometimes, I can feel him slipping from behind, only in walk, I wonder if that could be due to locking stifles. Shall update tomorrow what back chap says.


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## Archiepoo (4 June 2013)

i have a horse that drags his toes when he trots -had a couple of mctimmony treatments during which she said there was nothing extraordinary -bit stiff in his pelvis . well he was no better afterwards really . he doesnt wear boots but we had such a bad winter  i bought some schooling wraps which he hated and walked like he had travel boots on. anyway its made his back end MUCH more active-its almost like he had forgotten he had back legs before -and now he doesnt toe drag at all!!


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## Frozen Hoof Boots (4 June 2013)

How is your horse on tight circles inhand and being ridden downhill?

Without wanting to scare you i had a wobbler who's first signs were dragging toes in trot.  He was very weak behind and was horrendous going down hills.  When the vet did the tail pull test he was nearly pulled over and he acted like nothing had happened!


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## weesophz (4 June 2013)

I went to a presentation at my vets and they said toe dragging is an indicator of osteoarthritis.


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## Spotsrock (4 June 2013)

Mine does this when tired or cranky but checks out fine. He's an ex racer too but only 6


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## millitiger (4 June 2013)

If you've had him checked over and nothing found and he is happy in the rest of his work, I wouldn't worry.

Look at Opposition Buzz when he trots, it doesn't seem to have stopped him fulfilling his potential!


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## FfionWinnie (4 June 2013)

be positive said:



			He could just be slow behind, as a racehorse he would have done little trot work not much would have been expected of him as long as he could gallop so the muscles used for trotting would not have been built up as much as the canter/ gallop ones. 
I am currently rehabbing a horse that injured a hind leg, he spent 4 months on box rest and when he came back to work he was really dragging the toe as if he had forgotten how to use it, I have spent loads of time walking him over random poles, some raised, some flat, varied distances etc, mine can only walk for now but the improvement has been really good, you can almost see his brain working to try and pick up the foot and suss out the odd distances, the toe dragging has just about gone in walk and now he is doing a little trot work I hope it will follow that he will pick up in trot.
 I know yours has not had an injury but it could be worth trying to reeducate both his brain and muscles with the daily use of poles, the other exercises I have been doing on the ground also help, turning tightly so they pick up and step under as they do at vetting, I use a schooling whip to gently remind him and going backwards also coordinates the diagonal movement required for trotting.
		
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Glad to hear yours is at the rehab stage Bepositive. 

Op most of mine have gone through periods of this, I think its just weakness as it always resolves.


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## Holly Hocks (4 June 2013)

My last TB did this from when I got him at age 12 to when I lot him at the age of 21. 
OP has your horse raced on the flat or was it National Hunt?  My vet said that if they have raced heavily over fences, as mine had, the stress of the jumping can lead to them having stretched ligaments in their hind legs, so they don't "snap" up as quick as they could.  Mine squared his toes off too.  Mine also had arthritis which wouldn't help of course.


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## zaminda (4 June 2013)

When we bought our little arab from a trainer in newmarket he did it so badly his feet were completely squared off. We put rolled toe shoes on behind. Again he passed a full 5 stage vetting. As he has got older and hacked out more and done some pessoa work, he now doesn't do it anywhere near so badly, in fact you would hardly notice now.We put it down to the fact he used to trot on the walker for 20 minutes morning and evening, and found it very boring!!
My mare on the other hand only does it on one foot, and it is generally when she needs to see the chiro!


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## exracehorse (4 June 2013)

What I cant understand that during grid work (we are now working on 7 slightly raised trotting poles), he will pick his feet up absolutely fine and is jumping small courses (only baby fences) but, cant/wont pick those bloody back feet up in trot. So, technically, the mechanics must work in that he doesn't hit the trotting poles. I hacked him out yesterday for nearly an hour, and power walked for a good 55 minutes. Done 5 minutes of trotting (as I was getting bored!) and when I got back and checked his hind feet (am getting obsessed), they were really squared off again. Thing is, I have had his back checked twice now and no indication of pelvis, back, neck problems. I have googled 'toe dragging in trot' so many times and it scares me, it all indicates a problem. I don't know if he done flat or jumping at racing. He has been on a race yard all his life and was used as a 'stringer' and spent a lot of time on a horse walker. He doesn't seem to even realise he is doing it and seems absolutely fine in ridden work. I have done some checks over the past week, and can thus confirm following -
He is absolutely fine being turned in tight circles and can cross his legs and feet over, he can back up without complaint, I can put one hoof on top of the other and he will immediately remove it (all good signs), he is 100% sound trotting on a hard surface and don't forget, he is barefoot as well so, no shoes to mask any problems. I cant understand why he can canter and pick his hooves up and jump (baby jumps) and do grid work all fine but, in trot drags them. They go up ok but, hit the ground on the return. I think he looks stiff from behind. Almost like a a fox standing up (if that makes sense), yet the front ones are strong and powerful. I also had a good look at his muscle definition, all equal on both sides. Never ever had swelling on the hocks or lameness. He can walk down hills on the roads on a hack fine as well. Havent done steep slopes, as pretty flat around here. I don't want to worry my daughter (as its her horse) but, it does worry me a lot. You see, we noticed the problem as soon as we got him home and I rung up the vet at Newmarket that done the 5* vetting and explained that there were sparks coming off his back shoes and he was dismissive and said he hadn't seen anything but, because he had a horrific accident not long after we had him, and had to turn him away, we sort of forgot about the toe dragging as the vet said he may never be ridden again due to his fractured shoulder and fractured face. His neck was xrayed after the accident and that came back clear. Then he was turned away for 6 months and then we went barefoot (long story) and so was not ridden very much last summer, then turned away this winter due to it being so crap and my daughter up to her eye balls in A Levels. So, from March of this year, he has been slowly brought back into work and is now being ridden twice a day, power walking by myself each morning and dressage schooling in the evening. But, the problem is still there. If, he had this toe dragging after the accident, then I would think it was realated to that but, it was there before hand. We have had his back checked twice since the accident and nothing came up. So, I thought I would have it done once more, and then its a vet visit to rule out anything else.


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## exracehorse (4 June 2013)

archiepoo said:



			i have a horse that drags his toes when he trots -had a couple of mctimmony treatments during which she said there was nothing extraordinary -bit stiff in his pelvis . well he was no better afterwards really . he doesnt wear boots but we had such a bad winter  i bought some schooling wraps which he hated and walked like he had travel boots on. anyway its made his back end MUCH more active-its almost like he had forgotten he had back legs before -and now he doesnt toe drag at all!!
		
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Wow, that's really interesting! Pehaps I should put some travel boots on him and then trot him in the schooling ring, he may pick his back feet up them lol!


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## exracehorse (5 June 2013)

Very interesting evening. Chap watched my lad ridden and immediately said that he was not moving his right hand hind quarters correctly. Took him back to the yard and removed tack. When he pushed his fingers over his hind quarters, horsey reacted quite badly, dipped his rear end, put his ears back and tried to walk backwards. When he touched his spine, the middle section was another sore point, again severe reaction, ears pinned back and worried expression. He worked on him for a good 45 minutes, manipulating the muscles, pulling his legs on all directions etc. It was very informative to watch, when he touched points that he didn't like, my lad would react severely but, after he had worked on those areas, he would drop his head, lick and chew and relax. Definitely much better after he had worked his magic. He said that he couldn't rule out problems with his back (i.e. kissing spine) or with his stifles, hocks etc, only a vet should be sought for such advice but, he felt that he was very weak from behind due to being in so much pain from his back, pelvis and rump etc. What annoys me, is that I had two other back specialists out who didn't find any such problems and gave him a clear bill of health, just do the carrot stretches etc. I felt so guilty to see how much pain he was in and how much better he was after the guy had finished. I shall be having him out regularly. I cant say that this is the reason for the toe dragging, he may have poblems with his back and rear end plus something serious in his legs but, at least its a start. I feel better in a way that he had found pain in these areas as this may be the reason that he is not working from behind and dragging the hind legs. He has to have a day off and then lots of work with him working long and low. I am still worried that there is something else going on but, at least this is a start.


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## exracehorse (5 June 2013)

PS - funny enough the side that he picked up on, is the side that he finds more difficult to bend and strike off on canter etc. Also, pointed out that the rear hoof (right side) has a flare, which can also indicate problems with the back and pelvis on that particular side. The farrier just used to rasp it out but, it definitely dips in and out.


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## kc100 (6 June 2013)

Not quite the same situation as yours but my share horse is incredibly tight in his right hindquarters, he will sometimes drag his right hindleg and stumble a little bit. It will often leave him technically lame, it feels awful to ride and is most noticeable on the right rein in trot. A lot of the time he is fine, with only a little bit of tightness, but then recently we have had a couple of months of being really tight and lameness because of it. 

The physio has looked at him and done similar things to what your latest chap has done, we are now using the tensing machine to zap him daily, he is having his massage pad on twice a day when ridden and we are working on lots of long and low, only on the left rein going large (no tight circles) to try and stretch out the hindquarters and loosen everything up. 

This was all caused when his owner was jumping and they had a nasty fall, the horse fell on top of his owner, horse landing on his right hand side (hence the issues with the right leg). 

With your horse perhaps he had an injury relating to that side of his body before you got him that you were not aware of? On some days my boy would pass a vetting no problems, but if he's having a bad patch a vet could take one look at him and say he's lame. There doesnt seem to be any rhyme or reason as to why he has good spells and bad spells, he does like to hoon around the field so I bet occasionally he will be tweaking the leg himself, other times it might have been my riding (before I was aware of the issue I was working on smaller circles with my trainer to improve suppleness - big no no!). Most recently I've been away for a week and havent ridden, and came back and he was lame again so perhaps regular work is necessary as well to keep him in better shape.

I'm hoping with corrective riding and physio we might see some improvements, but at the moment we have had more issues than we have had good spells so its not looking great right now. 

I know there are some differences in our situations but I just wanted to let you know you're not alone, it sounds like you have found a good back specialist (3rd time lucky!) and I'd recommend a physio as well if you can afford it - they will be able to help with the corrective riding. Avoid small circles too, there are plenty of other suppling exercises that can be done without having to do 10 or 15m circles, 20m should be the smallest you do at home schooling.


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## catembi (6 June 2013)

My ISH does this.  His problems are:

1. EPSM
2. Spavin in both hocks (it was treated but not sure whether the spavin was even affecting him as issue 1 is the biggy; however, he was once an affil sj-er so that's where they looked first)
3. He is a lazy lump, but probably due to issue 1.

The farrier rolls his toes behind to stop him squaring them off on the road.

T x


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## exracehorse (6 June 2013)

kc100 said:



			Not quite the same situation as yours but my share horse is incredibly tight in his right hindquarters, he will sometimes drag his right hindleg and stumble a little bit. It will often leave him technically lame, it feels awful to ride and is most noticeable on the right rein in trot. A lot of the time he is fine, with only a little bit of tightness, but then recently we have had a couple of months of being really tight and lameness because of it. 

The physio has looked at him and done similar things to what your latest chap has done, we are now using the tensing machine to zap him daily, he is having his massage pad on twice a day when ridden and we are working on lots of long and low, only on the left rein going large (no tight circles) to try and stretch out the hindquarters and loosen everything up. 

This was all caused when his owner was jumping and they had a nasty fall, the horse fell on top of his owner, horse landing on his right hand side (hence the issues with the right leg). 

With your horse perhaps he had an injury relating to that side of his body before you got him that you were not aware of? On some days my boy would pass a vetting no problems, but if he's having a bad patch a vet could take one look at him and say he's lame. There doesnt seem to be any rhyme or reason as to why he has good spells and bad spells, he does like to hoon around the field so I bet occasionally he will be tweaking the leg himself, other times it might have been my riding (before I was aware of the issue I was working on smaller circles with my trainer to improve suppleness - big no no!). Most recently I've been away for a week and havent ridden, and came back and he was lame again so perhaps regular work is necessary as well to keep him in better shape.

I'm hoping with corrective riding and physio we might see some improvements, but at the moment we have had more issues than we have had good spells so its not looking great right now. 

I know there are some differences in our situations but I just wanted to let you know you're not alone, it sounds like you have found a good back specialist (3rd time lucky!) and I'd recommend a physio as well if you can afford it - they will be able to help with the corrective riding. Avoid small circles too, there are plenty of other suppling exercises that can be done without having to do 10 or 15m circles, 20m should be the smallest you do at home schooling.
		
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Thank you for your imput. Its so frustrating, I only they could talk to us! - My only niggle is that the back back, pelvis/rump area could be due to the hocks/stifles and although he may be feeling better now, he would soon stiffen up again if the cause is somewhere else. But, if I start thinking about that part, I shall have a nervous breakdown! - Yes, he used these zapper things, put gel on his back and then put round discs on top and attached them to something and they pulsated. Said his muscles in the middle of his back were very tight. I thought that he looked much better walking him out to the field this morning, then he had a gallop around chucking his legs everywhere! Yes, we have been doing tight circles as well to get him to soften!


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## exracehorse (9 June 2013)

Gave him a few days off. Daughter rode him long and low and then asked for some collection and begun schooling - unfortunately is still toe dragging. No change at all. I am so disappointed, I have hoped for some type of miracle after his back was looked at. I have no doubt that he was in pain with his back, and to be fair, he did look less stiff from behind. But, I had hoped for some difference. Still the same, ok in walk and canter etc, dragging in trot.


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## Norfolk Pie (9 June 2013)

exracehorse said:



			Gave him a few days off. Daughter rode him long and low and then asked for some collection and begun schooling - unfortunately is still toe dragging. No change at all. I am so disappointed, I have hoped for some type of miracle after his back was looked at. I have no doubt that he was in pain with his back, and to be fair, he did look less stiff from behind. But, I had hoped for some difference. Still the same, ok in walk and canter etc, dragging in trot.
		
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I haven't read all replies so sorry, I may be repeating, but in my experience, whilst there can be a multitude of "worrying" reasons (eg hocks problems, neurological, sacroiliac etc) my first thought is normally they are weak. 

We sit on their backs, and still expect them to be able to "lift" their middles to bring the hind leg underneath. Unsurprisingly, the majority can't - there's not really any such thing as a Miracle cure - if you had weak muscles but still had to work, your muscles would become tight and sore. A physio might let them off, but any decent one will give you exercises to tone the ones you're meant to be using, otherwise the cycle will simply repeat.

I wouldn't be worried at this stage (from what I've read) but he probably needs In Hand stretches / pole work / toning exercises.

If he simply carries on in ridden work, without enough muscle tone to carry a rider and perform the work asked, he will simply get more sore, and ultimately other problems can below.

You said you've had a physio - were they ACPAT registered, and what exercises did they leave you to help him develop?


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## BabyA (9 June 2013)

I've just had the exact same problem, had the vet out who confirmed he was stiff throughout his back so had a few physio sessions and a few weeks off. I've borrowed a massage pad but I'm not sure its made any difference. He isn't as bad but is still inclined to drag his rear toes. 

I've been lunging in a Pessoa which is making him work from behind and he is looking better. A friend pointed out he had an upside down neck so we wondered if he wasn't working well enough from behind hense the lack of muscle on the top of his neck. This is working but its going to take a while for the muscle to build up. 

I was browsing though the supplements at my local feed store and read about cortaflex HA. It was very expensive BUT just a week on he is moving much much better.... I'm sceptical about all these supplements but I really think it works! And it would at 51.99 per pot! 

Good luck!


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## exracehorse (20 October 2013)

Just an update really to all you kind fellows that gave help and advice. After his back was looked at, he continued toe dragging. Then he went suddenly lame on his front. Took a good month before an abscess burst out of the heel. Went back into work again in July. Lessons continued with our instructor, flat work coming on really well. Much more supple, has begun half pass and shoulder in etc. Clever boy. I decided to take him on more as my daughter is snowed under with college at Otley nr Ipswich. So, for the past 3 months, I have been hacking him out for 20 minutes to an hour each day. I cant stand schooling, I am old school and love nothing better than going out and finding different routes, plus he is lovely to hack as he really strides out. However, still had the old toe dragging in trot, rung my vet up and had another chat with him, he came over and had a look at him, agreed no heat or swelling in limbs or lameness. Said don't worry to much but, we may have to have nerve blocks and x rays. Asked if I was insured. Usual first question. Whenever I asked for trot, I could hear his back feet hitting the road, one more than the other, his rear right. So, hardly trotted really. When I did, even if he was really collected, as I tend to school on a hack rather than in the manage, he still toe dragged. Noticed that he was also almost sliding from behind at times, but more so on gravely roads, better on the smooth tarmac roads (he is barefoot all round). Was worried about locking stifles etc. But started to think that perhaps he was sliding because he was sore on his back feet as we were doing so much road work. Was beginning to get worried about the rear foot as we were getting close to the white line. The left rear hoof was not catching as much, hardly noticeable but, the rear right was still the same. Started to notice that he was more reluctant to have his back feet picked out. I was unable to hold them any higher than the ground as otherwise he would snatch. Also, on one occasion when I put his foot down after hoof picking, he held it up for ages and then wouldn't put it down,  had t untie him and make him walk before he would. This really put me in  a panic and so had my back guy out again Larry Beaususan. Again very tight in hind quarters, he worked on him for a good hour and he did move much better afterwards, although still toe dragging. Had my vet out again when his innocualtions were due a few weeks later. My vet feels that he has osteoarthritis in his back hocks and fetlock areas. I have had to have shoes put back on. Since the shoes have been on, he has stopped sliding from behind on sharp gravel roads so, he was in pain from the foot (shoes been on a week). I have ordered some Equi-Flex and that's due for delivery tomorrow. My vet said that as he is an ex racer, he sees it a lot and its usually the legs that take the brunt. Although only 9 years old, osteoarthritis can occur at any age. I do believe that he is improving in some ways. For instance, I am leaving him out 24/7 at hoping to leave out as much as possible over the winter. He is being ridden more regularly and I am walking him out every day along the roads. Yesterday when my daughter took him for a hack, she said Mum ' he done 10 strides of trot and didn't clink on the roads once' - that's an improvement, all I can do is try the Equi-flex, shall up his micro linseed etc and have considered Butless if he needs help. I don't know what else to do really, any suggestions would be great.


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## Sussexbythesea (20 October 2013)

I scanned through the thread and couldn't see if he has had neurological tests? E.g reversing with head held high, turning tightly so that legs have to cross and tail pull tests - where you walk the horse along and pull the tail to the side? I had a 5 year old that passed a 5 stage vetting that was subsequently diagnosed with wobblers. He dragged his hind toes especially downhill and showed mild bi-lateral lameness in front. Worth ruling out before other expensive tests if you haven't.

http://www.equinewobblers.com/diagnostics/neurological_examination.html


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## MotherOfChickens (20 October 2013)

when my horse did it it was bilateral stifle OCD, worse on the off side-he was 8/9yo. He passed hock flexions all the way through, had physios look at him. I would say that, although the reg. physio made him feel better, with hindsight the bodywork was covering up the stifle issue and if it had been caught sooner (ie with a proper lameness work up) it would have had a better prognosis.not blaming anyone other than myself. he was seemingly happy hacking/schooling/low level jumping. A decent vet can carry out the right sort of stifle flexions.


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## exracehorse (21 October 2013)

sussexbythesea said:



			I scanned through the thread and couldn't see if he has had neurological tests? E.g reversing with head held high, turning tightly so that legs have to cross and tail pull tests - where you walk the horse along and pull the tail to the side? I had a 5 year old that passed a 5 stage vetting that was subsequently diagnosed with wobblers. He dragged his hind toes especially downhill and showed mild bi-lateral lameness in front. Worth ruling out before other expensive tests if you haven't.

http://www.equinewobblers.com/diagnostics/neurological_examination.html

Click to expand...

HI, yes he is fine with all of the above. He can turn in tight circles and place feet appropriately, if a hoof is put on the one next to him, he ill immediately take it off, you can pull his tail, he can back up absolutely fine. I did think wobblers but vet said no. He has never ever been lame on front or rear, other than when he had an abscess I June.


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## exracehorse (21 October 2013)

MotherOfChickens said:



			when my horse did it it was bilateral stifle OCD, worse on the off side-he was 8/9yo. He passed hock flexions all the way through, had physios look at him. I would say that, although the reg. physio made him feel better, with hindsight the bodywork was covering up the stifle issue and if it had been caught sooner (ie with a proper lameness work up) it would have had a better prognosis.not blaming anyone other than myself. he was seemingly happy hacking/schooling/low level jumping. A decent vet can carry out the right sort of stifle flexions.
		
Click to expand...

What was the outcome with your chap? He has been doing the toe dragging for two years now, only just starting to show some form of improvement but, he is much fitter. My equiflex came this morning so, shall put that into his feed. Next stage would be x rays etc. He is not covered on some of his insurance policy, we have had two massive claims with him and I know his face and one of his front legs are definitely not covered. What happened with your horse? Do you still ride him, or did it get worse. He is toe dragging on both hind but one is not so much now and the other one is more obvious but, I do feel not as bad as before.


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## Goldenstar (21 October 2013)

My TB toe drags when being lead from another horse and occasionally riden if hes tired and lazy.
I have seen him doing it when he's bored on the lunge .
I had it investigated the vet could get no reactions to any hind flexions and advised that he is big over 17 hands and still developing he was six then he's 7 now and no further investigations where warranted at that time .
I cured him of doing led by tieing a tail bandage round his bum ( like the back half of one of those lunging aid ) and bucked him up but after a while he got used to it .
In dressage terms although a fab mover with a great hind leg you would say he's slow with the hind leg he's seven now and the work with the learning the changes and the half steps is teaching him to use the hind leg more qiuckly .
In his case I think it is just driven by the fact he's huge still growing into himself and he's got very very laid back temperament he's one of those TBs who are full of energy and commitment and then switch off the moment the exciting things finished and I feel this added to his need to do alot of muscular development is causing the toe dragging.


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## Bedlam (28 December 2013)

Ginger Bear said:



			Ours toe dragged worse on the lunge than any other time. We use Donna Blinman equine rehab for our horses. Based in Newmarket, equine vet & osteopath, there's nothing she hasn't been able to fix or improve with ours yet. We previously used different vets, physios, back people etc.. Now unfortunately she's the only one I go to.
		
Click to expand...

Why unfortunately...? And what does she actually do........?


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## NZJenny (28 December 2013)

I have two horses that toe drag, but just one leg (they are by the same stallion).  I think somewhere someone mentioned "locking stifles", and yes it is a version of this.  Partially sub-luxating patella, or sticky stifle.  As you describe, only at trot and nicely squared off toes, but only on the one leg. 

My gelding had a long career as an endurance horse, until I decided that he had done enough - he is now my dressage horse and general hack.  He has just turned 15.  My mare started endurance riding, until I retired, but is still doing easy 40 km rides.  Both horses are on Pentosan and they also have regular Bowen treatments, which helps.  Very occasionally (gelding has done it 4 times, mare has done it once) they will lock up the stifle, then they will be very lame for about 24 hours, the a bit sore for a couple of days.  

So maybe, next time the vet is out, check the stifles - quite hard to do, as the flexion test is the same as the hock.  I was initially told that my geldings issue was sacro-iliac (not vet), but when he locked up for the first time it was pretty obvious that was incorrect.


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## exracehorse (28 December 2013)

Just an update really. Just before I was due to start his equi flex and no bute, he came in from the field colicing. I have never had colic before but, knew the symptoms. Immediately rung the vet who came out, gave an injection and rectal exam and said wasn't tight internally, to walk and then return to the stable and check again in a few hours, I returned a bit later on and thought that he was dead. He was flat out at the back of the stable and it was trashed. So, emergency journey to local horse hospital with me travelling in the trailer shouting at him to stay up and not die on me. By the time we got there, he had twisted and his right colon had disbursed to the other side. To cut a long story short, I was advised that it would be best to drive to Newmarket for the operation or to have PTS. Declined the journey (didn't know if he would make it there) and after hearing about the pros and cons decided to not go down that route. For 48 hours it was touch and go with me saying goodbye to him twice in the middle of the night and signing the relevant forms. He did make it, the vet was amazd and after 10 day he was able to come home. The whole toe dragging became totally irelevent when I thought I was going to lose him. After 3 weeks rest and on electrolights and slop feed, I was told to do light exercise, so we begun walking out for 10 minutes a day etc and built it back up. He coliced in Oct and begun riding again in November. I believe he does have ulcers as in the summer when out 24/7 he doesn't mind his flank being touched but, in the winter when stabled more, he starts to complain when I change his rugs, pulls faces, tries to bite me, eats the wood on his fence rails etc. I haven't had him scoped (I don't think my insurance could take any more with this horse!) but have tried all the ulcer treatments, ulcer calm by feed mark etc, corn oil, basic non sugar feeds etc. Each winter its always the same. Anyway, started to school him in December, still toe dragging (although we are now only doing it on one hoof, his rear right) and not as bad as say a year ago. I used the course of no bute and equi flex and didn't notice a single difference, although 8 weeks might not be long enough of course. Cost of £40 a month. Although I don't mind if it helps him at all. In canter work he begun to buck like hell and he has never bucked, so had his saddle checked, all good, just needed some re flocking, had Larry Beasusan out again last Saturday, his back was bad again, he dipped when his back was touched, he wasn't standing square, tried to turn and bite, wasn't happy at all. Wondered if all the rolling with the colic had meant he had pulled something plus he wasn't able to eat for 4 days when colicing so that wouldn't have helped his tummy. Gave him a week off. Today rode out on a gentle hack, or so I thought. He was absolutely full of it, spooking, grew springs and went up a hand, so I made him school on the hack to keep his attention. Yet funny enough, we done lots of trotting which we never usually do and he didn't toe drag once, I listened out for the clinking of the hind rear shoe on the road and it never happened. So, mechanically, it must all work properly if he can do it when full of himself? If he just toe dragged in winter, then I could think that hind gut pain was the problem but, its all year round, even when out 24/7 with a nice big field to walk around in. He doesn't show any arthritic problems when coming out the stable in the mornings and today has had a good tear around as his field was trashed with skid marks in places.


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## awilliams (28 December 2013)

Me, mine has sacroiliac issues and is very slightly unlevel. Lots of pole work/lateral work has got him strengthened up and *touch wood* doesn't do it now, just always stays in work even if it's just a hack!


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