# Should he stay or go ....



## Antw23uk (17 May 2017)

Hi all
Sorry for title thread and this may be a long one and trust me I already feel like a total **** about this situation so dont hate on me too much as feeling retched right now 

Bit of background. We have a 3 year old collie who is the light of my husband and I's life. I was in between jobs when we got her (planned decision) so my 'job' was bringing her up. She is balanced, well rounded and perfect in every way. Over the last year we have been umming and ahhing about getting a 2nd dog to keep her company and to generally have a second happy dog. She loves playing with other dogs out and about and when they visit ect

So the search was on, we wanted something 1+ years old that could pretty much hit the ground running and 'fit in' to our busy lifestyle. We wanted to rescue, I have heaps of dog owning experience and keen on dog behaviour and dog psychology.

So we got the opposite of what we wanted!!! A month ago we brought home a 4 month old shepherd X who was born in a shelter, had only known shelter life and was fear aggressive and very nervous. He had been in foster a week before we picked him up and house training was pretty much done and there were glimpses of what could be a lovely dog showing through. He wasnt what we were after, we new the work involved in taking him on.

Fast forward a month he is a typical, if not nervous, five month old shepherd puppy. The two dogs play well together (Im pretty confident she wouldnt miss him though!), she has taught him so much and we have been trying our best to fill in the blanks. Honestly the changes in him have been brilliant and we are very proud. He is far from perfect, he is still nervous of us, people and dogs. We 'stage' everything so there is no room for failure (meeting people, dogs, situations, places ect so he always has a positive experience) but he still hasnt fully let go of his old life and embraced the pet life he now has .. and yes, its very early days, I know that and we see the potential in him.

There are issues with his behaviour and he is a terrible scavenger ... I've never known anything like it in my life! His behaviour you would expect from his 'previous life' but seriously .. twenty eggs off the side yesterday! (Im sure our collie enjoyed some of it!) Today the smell, the poo's ... horrendous! And yes, we move EVERYTHING out of reach, its second nature but I miss judged his reaching power now he has shot up another couple of inches!!

Im at a really low point right now (Its not just the eggs but thats whats prompted this post) and im struggling to see his future with us. We hold our hands up, he wasnt what we were looking for, we got bowled over by his puppy good looks and for me certainly the challenge of having a dog so damaged. I really feel like I'm letting him down with the amount of time we spend with him, there just arent enough hours in the day and I cant do two horses one handed whilst holding his lead because although he has a lovely and great recall now he cannot be trusted around the horse poo (black diarrhoea the other day from eating the neighbours ponies poo .. pony is on medication!!!) 

Not sure why I'm posting really, just feeling really low. I think he would be better off in another home who could spend more time with him but im probably saying it for selfish reasons really as he has settled in now and although I've no doubt with the work we have already put in, he would settle into a new home Im really saying it to make myself feel better. I want my old life back, our home with our collie. All orgainised, neat and tidy .. clean, smelling nice. Everything seemed so lovely and nice and now Im just fed up of him, the smell, the constant thinking, being one step ahead .. ALL the things you do and think with a puppy, I know this ... still not making it any easier though 

I dont know if im after advice, sympathy, a kick up the butt? Someone to tell me its ok to rehome him?  Dont know!
Thanks to anyone who has got this far.


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## Kaylum (17 May 2017)

Hi does the rescue have a behaviourist you can contact to help talk through the issues with you?  I have a rescue dog and I can see a lot of my dogs behaviour is stress related.


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## cally6008 (17 May 2017)

Quote = I cant do two horses one handed whilst holding his lead because although he has a lovely and great recall now he cannot be trusted around the horse poo (black diarrhoea the other day from eating the neighbours ponies poo .. pony is on medication!!!)

Is there any chance of leaving him in the car ? In a clean stable with maybe both doors shut ?

He's only been with you a month and has improved so much in that time, I would stick with him for a bit longer and see how you feel then.

What does your husband think ?


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## Pinkvboots (17 May 2017)

I know it's so awkward it's one of those things that makes you feel so terrible even thinking about it, to me it just sounds like a training issue with the constant want to eat just about anything apart from that he doesn't really sound that bad, could you not get some help from a trainer I think with a bit of help it could be controlled and I don't think it would take up a huge amount of time just a bit of consistency, he is still a puppy after all and they go through that faze of picking up everything and eating just about anything so as he gets older the urge may fade.


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## SusieT (17 May 2017)

If your other dog gets onw ell with him I'd persevere- 5 month old puppies are all annoying and naughty - in a few months you'll have a much more civilised dog.
Also, don't be too precious, let him eat horse poo and his system will cope, treat him like a normal dog albeit with safeguards and here's hoping he comes right.
if he really is too difficult for you be aware that most otehr homes will also find a 5 month old big nervous dog hard to handle..


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## MotherOfChickens (17 May 2017)

we have some really experienced shepherd owners on here so hopefully they'll be along soon. 

I do have a dog who was largely unsocialised when I got him at 7 months and had 'kennel manners' when it comes to eating though he has no resource guarding issues or fear aggression. He's less scavenger like now and whats worked is: feeding the dogs seperately and insisting on quiet time straight after meals; using a good slow feeder bowl; feeding a high quality, protein rich kibble plus RAW for variety. My dogs are also puppy-gated out of the kitchen when I am not about (we had to do that for a beagle cross we had last year). Although the retriever can be trusted to not now chew stuff he's not supposed to-the same cant be said of the collie but hopefully its just catch up with him. 
I would also maybe try some classes with him-choose them carefully, a good trainer wont overface him-but something like scentwork he'd be a natural at, its low energy and knocks them out-you can also do it at home in 5/10min bursts.


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## Dobiegirl (17 May 2017)

He is still a puppy, if you had bought an 8week puppy from a breeder you could well have the same problems.

If you really are not up to this send him back but dont get another, it seems to me you are looking for a carbon copy of your resident dog.

You allowed your heart to rule your head when you first got him and now the reality has kicked in you realise what a lot of work youve taken on which you dont want

There are lots of ways to deal with this dog as regards when you are doing the horses as Cally suggested pop him in the stable or pop a muzzle on him but you want your old life back so send him back to the rescue and I hope they rehome him to someone who is actually committed.


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## Roxylola (17 May 2017)

This is long but the story of my dog of a lifetime who is affectionately known as Baddog.  She is now 7 and still has Baddog days!  I have had to find so many ways to work around her thieving tendencies as well as the inclination to bog off, she is my absolute world though.  I wrote this for another forum in response to a spate of posts about "naughty" springers.  

TL;DR - I feel your pain, I too have a nightmare dog and I love her with all my heart, she has been worth the emergency vet bills, the emptied freezers and all the hours of blowing my whistle lead in hand for a dog nowhere to be seen!

Some beagle pups had been bred at our friendly Irish gypsy's (James) daughters place.  Two had not sold in Ireland so he brought them back across on the boat at about 10 weeks old, a bold as brass tricolour boy all squiggly wiggly and a much quieter tan and white girl.  James had brought them down to the stables to meet a possible buyer for one of them and I stayed for an hour or so to help entertain the pups while he dealt with his buyer.

As it happened I took a bit of a shine to the little boy even though his sister was a real sweet cuddly thing his adventurous sparkle really caught my eye.  So much so that after his buyer took the girl I remarked that it was a shame the tri was a boy otherwise I might have had him myself.

Of course as it turned out, the tricolour's funny spotted tummy at a glance made him look like he had more bits than he really did and in fact, the adventurous, sparky little boy was actually a girl.  Immediately in my mind I named her Lola for the kinks song.  I spoke to my (now ex)husband about having this puppy no end of times over the next few weeks.  Despite his adamant refusals I would always ask James how "my" little black beagle was doing when I saw him and when he brought her down to the stables she would inevitably escape to come sit at my feet while I was teaching, looking up and wagging at me.  I thought this was fate, I have since seen her do the exact same thing to almost anyone despite my own attempts to call her back (not so cute on the other end of this!) 

And one bright afternoon I made arrangements to collect her and take her home the next night.  This now 5 month old puppy who had been living in a pen in a barn for the last few months would be coming to live in my carpeted house with our older, easy to manage fully house trained lab mix.

I have toilet trained pups before, how hard can it be I thought.  I would add that Roxy was taking herself outside to toilet or going on paper if I was out after 1 week at home with me at just 8 weeks old.  Lola is now 4 and will mostly go outside, unless it's raining, too cold, the grass is too long, if there is too much poop in the garden, the grass is wet...  So yes toilet training was to put it bluntly a nightmare.  She would sit outside by the door for literally hours while I waited for her to toilet, on one memorable occasion from 10 at night until 1:30 in the morning.  If I took her back in she would go in "her corner" literally the second by back was turned.  I put puppy pads down and then took them out after she had done so they smelled right, I took her out on the lead, off the lead, I interrupted her going in the house took her out and she would simply sit by the door until we went back in.  She was over a year old before she would toilet at all on a walk, and if we went out for a day she would hold herself until we got home.  Even now she is incredibly fussy about only using one spot in the garden.

She quickly learned basics such as being on a lead, sit and down although the come back was hit and miss.  So we went to training classes where we would paractise working towards our bronze kennel club certificate.  Most places do this as a 12 week course.  Lola and I trained for 18 months, took the test 3 times and still have not passed.  One memorable night it took me 45 minutes to capture her following our off lead recall which would be more accurately described as an off lead bogoff!  She seemed to take pleasure in showing me up at every opportunity.  We worked hard at home, spent literally months on a long line working recall, we tried every treat imaginable, calling her back and letting her go off again, calling back and putting her lead on for a bit, toys (none of which she had any interest in) anything and everything and yet each week we would go and no matter what she would have to go visiting every single other dog, mug all the other owners for treats, have a run round and a sniff then maybe think about coming back.  For our heel work, if she wasn't climbing my legs she was climbing another owners, stays in cold or wet weather were none existant, if it had been a wet day I had to take a mat for her to entertain any sort of sit...!

And she ate things, shoes, cd's, carpet, wallpaper, doors, beds, poo (her own and anyone elses she could get her teeth on).  She no longer eats 5 of those items, poo is still irresistable!

On our walks she would get wind of something and disappear, merrily running off to play with another dog half a mile away, eat something she found somewhere in the woods, mug people for sandwiches or any other likely item of food (including one child in push chair's ice cream), raid bins and generally suit herself when she came back.  This has improved somewhat, she will still scoff available food and still goes off hunting if she picks up a live scent - most recently, 2 hours spent running after a deer!  But mostly she comes back when called and does not bother other dogs so much at all.

At home even now she will tip up the bin in a well practised manouvre to get at any edibles that may be in there.  She can open the freezer quickly and pull out anything she fancies (vegetables tend to get left to defrost) she used to open a cupboard and raid that but we changed where the food was kept!  She has literally cost me thousands in stolen food, ruined items, and vets bills as a result over the years.

The list goes on and on I am not sure if the good outweighs the bad and yet somehow she is still my angel dog who makes my heart sing everytime I see her.  The other side of the coin is things like on Friday as we were waiting to criss the road a mother was waiting with 2 small children, the little (about 3) girl shrank away at first - according to her mum she is terrified of dogs.  Well Roxy and Maddie were oblivious to her but as we stopped Lola turned to look at her and just wagged her tail, by the time the man was green the little girl was beaming and waving at Lola.  I think given another minute or so she would have been stroking my gentle girl and wanting to hold her lead like every other child we meet.  She is utterly utterly charming and loveable and I treasure these little moments.  I like to think it's them that make it all worthwhile but i am kidding myself the truth is even without these moments of angelic behaviour the fact that she is mine is enough to make every minute of struggle worthwhile.  My heart belongs to my girl no matter how much of a baddog she can be and all of this is why I sometimes get a bit frustrated with people who think they have the worst dog ever.  I really truly believe that if anyone else had bought Lola she would have ended up either being passed from pillar to post in rescue, possibly with some issues and reactivity to other dogs as her enthusiasm might have been misunderstood and frustrated, or possibly being used as a breeding machine, or even run over, shot for chasing sheep (which she can smell from miles away) or possibly pts!

So if you think you own the worst dog in the world, you don't she is mine already and I will never part with her!


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## Blanche (17 May 2017)

I have felt the 'omg what have I done, I can't cope with this puppy' in the past. Doesn't usually last long, though it puts me off getting a pup anytime soon. 
How do you feed him, what and how often? Maybe bulk his food with some veg and up how often he is fed. At that age I would feed him at least twice a day. 
I feel you on the eating everything, I had a dally who , his whole life, was a glutton. Some of the things he ate include, but not limited to, 20 jam donuts, 2 large loaves of bread, 1 kilo tub of Flora ( the upchuck that ensued was the most rancid slime you could imagine), 3kg Pasta ( not all of it but he made significant inroads). I could go on for a long time and talk about the nappies and sanitary products etc. he found on walks but suffice to say he would eat anything and everything. He was never in a kennel or rescue, was never not fed ( unless he was ill) so some are just greedy. 
I would hang in there a bit longer as it is still early days and cut yourself and him a bit of slack.


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## The Fuzzy Furry (17 May 2017)

I've had 3 GSD's in the past, all were gannets through baby to teenage stages. 
Totally my fault if any of them got food - it meant I hadn't been vigilant (even with 1 who preferred wellie boots till she was nearly 2, to chew on!)

I've trained myself over the years - if its a rescue, then they do not interact with the ponies except on long-lines or leads for a very very long time. 
Fuzzies are popped into boxes whilst dog (s) get play time or working with me in paddocks.

Current rescue is STILL a menace for recall, so its Fuzzies in on arrival, I then whizz round poo-picking with her on a flexi lead. 
THEN she gets her free time with me giving her 100% attention.
After this she has to go into a stable or hay barn (secure) whilst I work Fuzzies or do things that she cannot 'help' me with.
This is twice a day minimum.

OP, you wanted a slap, take one please


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## Clodagh (17 May 2017)

I have got a 5 month old labrador that we chose as a pup from a good background with a good breeder. I cannot wait for her to grow up! She has upset the easy structured routine of our lives and anything you leave within reach is chewed or eaten. It sounds to me as though your pup is just being a puppy, it is what they do. If you got an adult rescue it would probably have more baggage.
I think, in a years time you will think how proud your are of him and of you - if you keep him.
I agree with DG, if you choose not to keep him I wouldn't get another dog, they are all difficult to start with, no matter how old they are. I would forget him being from a shelter, just treat him like a puppy, set boundaries and enforce them.
BTW Thistle has met the pup and would agree she is much loved, in case it sounds like I shouldn't have one!


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## JillA (17 May 2017)

For a scavenging dog who clearly values food as a resource because there was probably a distinct shortage of it in his life - turn it on its head and provide food EVERYWHERE - chews, chews and more chews, stale bread, you name it just overload him with foodie items to select. He'll soon decide it isn't that important - worked a treat every time I have suggested it for a dog who is similarly food obsessed to the point of fighting every dog or person who comes near. Even if it wasn't due to a shortage, he clearly over values food as a resource. The good news in he is young enough to learn.
And teach a "leave" command - have a treat in your hand, close your hand over it and offer it. The second he looks away give him the treat - he gets the reward for leaving it - then put the word to it. It has always generalised well IME.
A behaviour specialist is a good idea - if the rescue doesn't have one and you are insured, some insurers pay for treatment by a member of APBC


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## bonny (17 May 2017)

JillA said:



			For a scavenging dog who clearly values food as a resource because there was probably a distinct shortage of it in his life - turn it on its head and provide food EVERYWHERE - chews, chews and more chews, stale bread, you name it just overload him with foodie items to select. He'll soon decide it isn't that important - worked a treat every time I have suggested it for a dog who is similarly food obsessed to the point of fighting every dog or person who comes near. Even if it wasn't due to a shortage, he clearly over values food as a resource. The good news in he is young enough to learn.
And teach a "leave" command - have a treat in your hand, close your hand over it and offer it. The second he looks away give him the treat - he gets the reward for leaving it - then put the word to it. It has always generalised well IME.
A behaviour specialist is a good idea - if the rescue doesn't have one and you are insured, some insurers pay for treatment by a member of APBC
		
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He was born in a shelter not on the streets ! I'm with the opinion that you should treat him like any other 5 month pup, mine came from a farm and had only been in a shed, I can't see the difference to their beginnings. It sounds like you are just st finding him hard work and it will get better soon


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## ihatework (17 May 2017)

I'm sorry but I think you owe it to him to persist a bit longer. Nothing you are experiencing is really too unexpected.

Don't get me wrong, I do know where you are coming from. I rehomed a terrier last summer from a loving & stable home - albeit a completely different environment.

I wouldn't be a particularly experienced dog owner and it has taken me a bit by surprise at how long it has taken this dog to adapt to new environment. Even now, despite her being very good in so many ways, I find it quite inconvenient that she 100% cannot be trusted off lead and I can't just 'leave her with anybody' to look after like I can my other dog. But she is mine and I'm in it for the long haul.


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## Antw23uk (17 May 2017)

Thank you all so very much for the wise words and encouragement. Its been a bad couple of days and I am just feeling overwhelmed. He would be so much further advanced if I had mollycoddled him since getting him but I've been adamant that rules are rules and boundaries are set for a reason so though more advanced he would have also been more of a nightmare so thanks to those who suggested similar, he is very much told what is and isnt acceptable and if it means we take a one step forward and two steps back but he's learnt something then so be it. I actually think this is making him a better adjusted dog. 

I know those who said dont get another dog mean well but thats really quiet upsetting ... its very unlikely we would get another one but still not nice to be told it when we can offer such a lovely home for the right dog. However this has been just what I've needed so he IS the right dog, he's just a five month old knobhead and I'm just having a drama queen moment .. I think I'm over it now  

Whats crazy is people come to ME for these wobbles, thats the most upsetting part is that I know all this, Im the go to guy when you are having trouble with your dog! Thats why I feel so low about it but there is nothing wrong with asking for a bit of help and support so thank you again.


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## SusieT (17 May 2017)

We've all been there with puppies - they go through a stage where you wouuld gladly pawn them off to anyone and everyone!


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## Clodagh (17 May 2017)

SusieT said:



			We've all been there with puppies - they go through a stage where you wouuld gladly pawn them off to anyone and everyone!
		
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Very true - you also forget how bad they are. We are convinced our middle lab was a paragon of virtue and then remembered the time she got in the bathroom cupboard and emptied several bumper boxes of tampons all over the house, it looked like we had a white mouse invasion.


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## Tiddlypom (17 May 2017)

SusieT said:



			We've all been there with puppies - they go through a stage where you wouuld gladly pawn them off to anyone and everyone!
		
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This! Our old boy is 13 now (although he still acts like a much younger dog), and I'm dreading going through the puppy stage again after he's gone, even though we've done it plenty of times before. 

Take heart, OP, you're just having a bit of a wobble .


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## Thistle (17 May 2017)

Clodagh said:



			Very true - you also forget how bad they are. We are convinced our middle lab was a paragon of virtue and then remembered the time she got in the bathroom cupboard and emptied several bumper boxes of tampons all over the house, it looked like we had a white mouse invasion.
		
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snigger


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## Moobli (17 May 2017)

I think you are just having a wobble.  He is hard work, he is disrupting your previously tranquil life and you have lost confidence in your ability to deal with him. 

My advice would be to think long and hard about your options.  If you agree with the above and it IS just a wobble then reassess how you are dealing with him, make sure you remain consistent in your boundaries and keep plugging away (either with or without professional help)  ... you sound like you are doing a grand job.  

However, if you really do think his behaviour issues are too much to deal with then you might want to consider returning him to rescue or rehoming him yourself.  The problem with stealing food is a no brainer - that is entirely your fault for leaving edible items within reach.  However, the nervousness, reactivity and aggression may be something you cannot fully cure but can learn to manage.  Consider how you would feel a year or two down the line if his nervous aggression is no better - will that be something you can live with?  At 5 months old he is still a puppy and so his issues can be worked on, but equally he is at an age where he is likely to be more easily rehomed.  If you decide 12 months down the line that you can't live with his issues then he will have less chance of being rehomed quickly.

Good luck with whatever you decide.  Would love to see a photo of both your dogs


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## MissTyc (17 May 2017)

I'm struggling with serious post puppy depression at the moment. I had terrible thoughts the last few weeks such as if the puppy died then that would be a pity but probably for the best, or I should give him away while he still has a cute puppy face, etc ... I found support and solace online when I realised my puppy was being a normal terrier puppy. I hadn't had a puppy for almost 20 years, only older rescues, and I really can't remember ever feeling like this! We seem to be in a cycle of one good day, one bad, one good, etc .... I focus on the good days. Today was mostly a good day! It's the first time he went to socialisation class and didn't have a grumble. In fact he did 20 minutes off lead socialisation and mostly ignored the other dogs or sniffed them politely and then trotted off to do a poo in the corner. Puppies, eh .... 

He's gone through the bin and nicked stuff from the kitchen - like you, I thought everything was safe. My dog is a terrier cross, tiny!, so how did he reach? I'll never know, but he snuffled the lot. And then I moved the bin into the hallway and must have not closed the baby gate properly as next thing I know there is an argument between puppy and resident dog over a piece of manky tissue from remains of the bin. No one won. It's MY tissue. My household, my rules lol ....  And all of the above is under supervision because he's almost never out of my sight. But after 4 weeks of not sleeping much for toilet training and trying to teach both dogs to respect each other my attention has reduced to useless. I cried in front of my boss yesterday. 

You have my sympathy. It gets better ...  It has to!


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## CorvusCorax (17 May 2017)

Answer this one honestly?

Do you like him?

If you don't, let him go. He's young enough to adapt to a new situation and he will know...you can't pretend anything around dogs.

My dog has been described as 'crazy' in several different languages. I have a very well stocked first aid kit. I fully expect us to end up on one of those internet blooper reels one day.

However the thought of not having him in my life one day makes me burst into tears. If yours doesn't do it for you and it's more stressful than fun to have him around, he's going to feel the stress too.

I did wake up and listen to mine throwing himself against the crate in the mornings thinking 'what have I done' after years of owning relatively placid animals in comparison.
But he's always been fun and he's taken me places I'd never imagined I'd be. It did take him about three years to stop being an outrageous knob.

Perhaps give him a bit more time, give him a job, you never know, you both might get addicted to something fun 

(Mine used to roll in dead fish, eat the most disgusting things and almost eviscerated my mother's Stieff bear she'd had from childhood. Today he totally ignored a very large dead bald baby rook...it may come in time!)


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## MyBoyChe (18 May 2017)

I think CC has summed this up very nicely.  Theres a big difference between struggling with getting your new dog to behave as you would like him too, and actually not liking him for himself.  As with humans, sometimes you just dont bond!  If you have discovered that actually, you really dont like him as a personality, then it would be better to find him a new home.  If it is just the struggle with the disruption to your life and getting him to become a more rounded individual, I would persevere with him, as your bond grows, so the behaviour will change.  Good luck, I always think its such a risky business getting a new animal, be it a youngster or a slightly older one, you just dont know if you are going to "like" each other.


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## Goldenstar (18 May 2017)

Just sounds like a puppy to me .
Stealing eggs you should not have had them out .
One of mine learnt to open the fridge if you did not push the door hard shut we had spectacular fridge raids including the consumption of all the food for a dinner party for eight ,
I could write a long book on the terrible things puppies have done here over the years.
The current two year olds claim to fame was chewing a brand new leather chair that come all the way from Italy and eating a pair of Bang and Olsen speakers .
You got a puppy you have to suck it up .
The only thing I would say is to get professional advice over the shyness now don't wait your vet will proberly know someone they can refer you to or the charity.

And I know you think people are being harsh when they say don't get another but don't , complaining he's  a nuisance when you do the horses is just silly -honestly what did you think it was going to be like .
To do a puppy well is very very hard work .


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## pippixox (18 May 2017)

I completely understand your wobbles!

We lost our 5yo GSD rescue in january, very quickly, to cancer, and I cried for weeks and still well up regularly when things remind me of him. But the house was too empty without a dog, so we got in touch with rescues and found a 2yo collie girl who was sweet and used to children, but had spent the first 2 years of her life just in a small family house and garden- no walks, so she was going crazy and was very 'naughty' due to pent up energy.

when I met her I knew we would have her- so she came home with us on trial.....

the first 2 nights I barely slept- she was very stressed and had to sleep in our room or she would howl and mess. I spent the first 3-4 days thinking what the hell have we done!

I think it is the shock factor of a new dog- you know your other dog so well you don't have to think- my GSD was calm, could be left for hours fine, wondered in the horses fields without bogging off. We now have a nervous collie, with separation stress, who is scared of the horses and likes to run off after ducks (very high chase drive)

but after 4 days I knew we were going to keep her. 

over the next 3-4 weeks I have so many wobbles. She managed to escape and chase after a duck and dissapear for 30 minutes one day. She stole a pizza off the kitchen counter and cream eggs out of my husbands work bag. 

but she has come so far- its been about 3 months now and she is part of the furniture.

I'm sure I read somewhere- can't remember were- about dogs settling in:
3 days- to get over the initial shock to you and stress of a move for them.
3 weeks to start and settle into a routine and also show their true personality (sky stayed close for 3 weeks as nervous- then the chase drive took over as her confidence grew!)
3 months- to be part of the family and really settle into the fold
then a bit longer to obviously be your part of the furniture- especially when they are still young and in training, but I found these timings very true. 

it's hard- but you need to try and relax and enjoy them- not over think it- I wasted too much time comparing her to our last dog and wishing she had certain things she never will, or will but in time


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## MurphysMinder (18 May 2017)

I agree with CC's comment as to whether or not you actually like this pup.   The last pup I had after a gap of about 8 years I found it exhausting and had definitely forgotten how much hard work a puppy can be.  And I don't think that is particularly true of GSDs,  all pups need a lot of attention.   I don't think the stealing is particularly because of his past,  more because he can,  as you say yourself it is up to you to keep things out of his reach.   Yes,  he probably is a nuisance when you do the  horses,  because he is a young pup    He isn't just going to magically fit into your routine.
The shyness is not normal puppy behaviour,  if you do feel you want to keep him (and not just because you feel you ought to),  then start at a decent training class as soon as possible and get him out and about with you  as much as possible.


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## monkeymad (18 May 2017)

One month is such a short time! You have taken on a damaged animal and you will leave an even more damaged animal if you give up on him now.


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## ponyparty (18 May 2017)

Aw OP I think everyone has these wobbles - and if they say they don't... They're lying! I definitely thought about ringing my breeder, admitting defeat and asking if she'd have him back at certain points haha!
So many times when Frank was around this age (and I had him from 8 weeks old!) I came home to anything and everything he could get his paws on shredded into a million tiny pieces. If we forgot to tuck the chairs under the kitchen table, he'd be on it, destroying everything. Car insurance documents, tickets to see the Spanish Riding School... You name it! All our fault for leaving things out of course, but doesn't make it any easier at the time!
He also hates rain so at one stage would quite happily pee in the kitchen rather than use his dog flap (24 access to garden!) and risk getting a few drops of rain on him...! Precious little snowflake..! Not to mention the number of holes he dug in my lawn, and now my mum's lawn... 
We worked hard to get him well socialised but when his hormones started going crazy, he turned into a demented sex obsessed rapist, trying to hump any dog he saw, and if he couldn't get to them he'd just hump the air... During his second fear phase he would growl at random strangers he didn't like the look of, very embarrassing!
Every walk became stressful, every time I got home I expected the house to be upside down with bits of shredded whatever everywhere...
But he's 2 now, and for the last 9 months or so he's become a well rounded, sensible, happy little dog. He does still eat horse poop but it's OK! That's what dogs do! I'm sure I read somewhere it's good for them in small quantities?! 
In fact, on Tuesday night Frank was overjoyed when I was riding and Bruce deposited a massive poop shortly after we began - he legged it over to the steaming pile and starting wolfing it down whilst my boyfriend looked on, horrified (even more so when I asked him to fetch the skip and remove said poop, har har!).
Give him time! Sounds like you have the knowledge and experience this dog needs, if you return him or pass him on he might end up in kennels indefinitely or with totally the wrong owner.


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## monte1 (18 May 2017)

I feel for you  a new pup is always hard work no matter if a rescue or direct from a breeder, but sounds like you know what you are doing and just need some reassurance and somewhere to let off a bit of steam !

if it makes you feel better, here is our story......sorry it is bit long! 
last year we sadly lost two of our much loved working cockers one of old age and one in a tragic accident. instead of a family of three we were left with just one dog, (the son of the bitch we lost who I bred) my DH didn't want to get another cocker as was missing "his" lovely boy to much and didn't want to try to replace him  - (if you see what i mean) so, in early August we got an 8 week springer bitch pup, she is a sweetheart, all the usual puppy hard work but by mid October all good, toilet trained,  mostly good manners, fitted well into our family life - she is very quick and sharp as a button with her training, recall etc. so all is good, then early November we get a call from a friend on a local shoot, who had a litter of working bred labs and had one 8 week bitch puppy left as buyer had pulled out, ( some background here my DH always really liked this guys dogs , has seen them work on the shoot over the years and they are lovely versatile and biddable, will do cover, retrieve and sit on a peg) so he wants to go see this pup and of course as you can imagine she is going to come home with us! 
So i now have a 4 year old Cocker, few month springer pup and 8 week old Labrador, don't get me wrong she is a lovely dog, but it has been really hard work, (toilet training in the winter is never fun :-() and I have to say Labs do not appear to be quite so quick on the uptake as my spaniels and quite a few times I was finding it all a bit overwhelming wondering if we had made a mistake, but we are getting there, all the dogs get on very well and know their place, we have had to be very strict with everything - so they don't just cause chaos as a "pack" 
especially when training with the two pups we have had to make sure we do individual one on one to get the focus and we often take them off separately to do different things so they don't rely on each other all the time.

I suppose what i am trying to say is, hang in there, it will all come right in the end


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## catembi (18 May 2017)

Oh gosh, the puppy wobbles!  We've all had them!  I have Rotties - the first one was a 3 yo rescue, the second followed a few years later as a companion for him & OMG the chaos!  The first dog never, ever chewed up anything that wasn't his, was always perfectly clean in the house etc etc etc etc...  There is no destructive force in Nature equal to a Rottie pup at the chewing stage.  She coined a new word - 'to puppy' as in, 'what happened to the < insert random object of choice > ?' answer: 'oh, it got puppied'.  Several pairs of sunglasses, a basket of clean washing that was between the washing machine & the tumble dryer when I had to answer the door/phone, electric toothbrush on charge 'out of reach', whole boxes of 'ladies' things', etc etc etc.  As others have said, it wasn't her fault - it was mine for leaving things out, but I sat & cried at some favourite things that she shredded.  But then I got better at putting things away & she (finally!) grew up & stopped chewing.  There were several times when I'd cheerfully have given her away but I'm very glad I didn't as she's now just as little trouble as my original dog.  She is now 6 and the original dog is 11.  The current puppy is 15 months and has had his infuriating moments when I've thought, OMFG why am I putting myself through this AGAIN...??!!  But he's a good dog & he too will be no trouble at all in the near future.

Honestly, it will get better!  Although it is hard when you feel that everything is going wrong & there's no light at the end of the tunnel!

(Humorous aside to make you laugh: puppy has recently chewed up my husband's gel kneeler into tiny shreds.  I picked it all up, went onto Amazon to order another one...and it reminded me that I'd already bought this item in 2012.  Yes, that was when Milly was a puppy & had just shredded the original!  So maybe I should just put in an automatic re-order for kneelers so that they come every 5 years to co-incide with my puppy-buying behaviour...?!)


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## Antw23uk (18 May 2017)

Thanks all, you have certainly made me chuckle with your stories and mishaps .. its making me feel normal again and not some loony!

To answer the question of liking him .. Yes I really do like him, he shows so much expression in his eyes, his tail will give you an immediate insight into how he is feeling (down is bad, curled up over his bum good .. dont ask, god knows what's in the genes to get a tail curled up and over, lol!) He will carry the weight of the world on his shoulders one moment and then give a sly little wag of his tail when I kiss his face which melts my heart because its 10000% better than he was a month ago when we literally couldnt get near him and he had to be 'herded' to where you wanted him!

This morning he greeted me with a wagging tail and no accidents so I opened the back doors for them both and went back to bed (don't know why i was awake at 0500!) and then at 0600 when I went back in the kitchen he was like a bouncing loonatic and throwing himself all over me. My OH has taken him for a lovely walk this morning and bumped into a neighbour with his lab and all three dogs romped away playing and he behaved perfectly with good recall ect (a month ago we never thought he would ever be allowed off lead he would have just been gone and no one would have caught him!)

My heart breaks for our collie, she has graciously accepted him and and has gone from sleeping on her own bed in our bedroom to sleeping with him in the kitchen .. mostly on the floor because he steels her bed .. why would he sleep in his own when it smells of wee!!! That breaks my heart, she doesnt deserve that  The plan will be to have them both on there own beds in our bedroom, its something that will need practice at the weekend perhaps when we can be sleep deprived! 

All in all feeling more positive, thank you all


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## Antw23uk (18 May 2017)




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## MotherOfChickens (18 May 2017)

he is a gorgeous pup! Why not crate him overnight if you feel bad for her? My goldie is not crated overnight now, the collie is (because of the eating random stuff habit) although he also has his own space for eating and sleeping if he wants-I find it helps to give them time out from each other (and me tbh).


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## Antw23uk (18 May 2017)

MotherOfChickens said:



			he is a gorgeous pup! Why not crate him overnight if you feel bad for her? My goldie is not crated overnight now, the collie is (because of the eating random stuff habit) although he also has his own space for eating and sleeping if he wants-I find it helps to give them time out from each other (and me tbh).
		
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Crating hasnt really worked for us with him although there is a crate in the kitchen always open and its handy for when we just need 'a moment' lol! You might be on to something though so perhaps him crated overnight with her still in the kitchen .. taking her away  .. god no, we wont go through that again, lol!


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## SpringArising (18 May 2017)

Postpartum dog-buying is definitely a thing.

There've been times when I've thought 'What have I done? I want my old life back'. I'm three months in and I'm only just getting used to the responsibility and commitment/routine. I can no longer go out after work, my lunch breaks are spent walking home to walk him and then walking back again, as soon as I get home he needs to be taken out for a burn off, I can't just go away at a moment's notice anymore. They are a huge tie and to be honest I've had moments of thinking 'If you slipped away peacefully that would be okay with me right now' :redface3:	

He was a rescue so I've been through the usual rubbish with him; getting home to a giant steaming $hit on the floor, him weeing up the curtains/on my high-pile rug/constantly following me everywhere and getting under my feet. They are such hard work, it's honestly exhausting at times.

Thankfully we are now at the stage where I trust him to roam free home alone and he's brilliant (read: he'll get on the sofa as soon as I'm gone and get off it as soon as he sees me coming back :rolleyes3.

Stick with the pup for a bit longer - nothing that you've said is major. Completely understand how you feel though. Just another nine or so years to go...


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## MotherOfChickens (18 May 2017)

no, didnt mean taking her away-just letting them have their own space and her own bed 


I am surprised at how many of you seem to find it such hard work, dont know why you all bother if its so bad lol. I had two weeks without a dog last year and simply didnt know what to do with myself. Its hard work but I've never regretted any of them, not even the psycho collie rescue.


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## Antw23uk (18 May 2017)

SpringArising said:



			Stick with the pup for a bit longer - nothing that you've said is major. Completely understand how you feel though. Just another nine or so years to go...
		
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You just made a fully grown man let out a laugh and then a couple of sobs, lol thanks!


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## Antw23uk (18 May 2017)

MotherOfChickens said:



			no, didnt mean taking her away-just letting them have their own space and her own bed 


I am surprised at how many of you seem to find it such hard work, dont know why you all bother if its so bad lol. I had two weeks without a dog last year and simply didnt know what to do with myself. Its hard work but I've never regretted any of them, not even the psycho collie rescue.
		
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LOL I KNO!!! I'm happy as larry with my lot, two horses at home, 7 chickens (6 eggs under a broody) a large boa constrictor, two cats and the collie so now two dogs. People cant believe how many animals we have .. it drives me nuts when they say that, I bloody hate it!!! 

I normally refer them to a neighbour who has a small holding in her back garden, lol! I never see it as us having too many, far from it I think we have room for more (never gona happen .... for now  )


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## SpringArising (18 May 2017)

MotherOfChickens said:



			no, didnt mean taking her away-just letting them have their own space and her own bed 


I am surprised at how many of you seem to find it such hard work, dont know why you all bother if its so bad lol. I had two weeks without a dog last year and simply didnt know what to do with myself. Its hard work but I've never regretted any of them, not even the psycho collie rescue.
		
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It depends on your circumstances. If I was living in a house, with an OH to help, and not also working full time then TBH yes it would be a hell of a lot easier. 

As it stands I live in an apartment so I physically have to walk him rather than just open a door and let him out in the garden while I sit down with a cuppa like I imagine a lot of people can do! My routine is wake up at 6:45 to walk dog for half hour, walk to work at 7:40 to get there for 8, work 8am-12pm, walk home at 12pm, walk dog for 20 mins, walk back to work for 1, work 1-5, get home at 5 and walk dog for an hour, get home, do usual chores, have dinner, do a bit of reading, take dog out at 11pm before bed. Doesn't leave for a lot of 'me' time!


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## silv (18 May 2017)

I am glad you are feeling better about things.  Our Labrador was a monster for his fist year and I had forgotten just how much work puppies are.  We still cannot leave food on the counter tops or its gone as soon as our backs are turned, ditto when I feed my hens.

He is georgous and I think I see a bit of Elkhound in that tail possibly,  sounds like you are giving him a wonderful life and he will eventually grow up to be a well balanced dog.  I would try the crates in your bedroom to keep your collie happy.


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## MotherOfChickens (18 May 2017)

Antw23uk said:



			LOL I KNO!!! I'm happy as larry with my lot, two horses at home, 7 chickens (6 eggs under a broody) a large boa constrictor, two cats and the collie so now two dogs. People cant believe how many animals we have .. it drives me nuts when they say that, I bloody hate it!!! 

I normally refer them to a neighbour who has a small holding in her back garden, lol! I never see it as us having too many, far from it I think we have room for more (never gona happen .... for now  )
		
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I'll rasie you to 10 chickens, one cockerel, 5 ducks and two drakes (two ducks sitting) one pair of geese (goose sitting), 2 dogs (11 and 12 months old), 2 cats and granted, although I have two horses one is away right now. Also commute 90 mins a day, work 1.5 jobs, OH works away much of the time and when he's not working we are taking care of his parents or his children. He says we are full to capacity and he could be right.. I am too busy its true-but having a dog around and seeing to it first has been a part of life since I was a child, am lost without them. I have cut right back on the poultry and am waiting on the chickens snuffing it.

Anyway, you have two lovely dogs. Dont be afraid of making it slightly easier on yourself though-crate him, use a puppy gate, teach him a settle command and some impulse control games, spend quality time with both-on their own.


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## CorvusCorax (18 May 2017)

I'm with MOC on 'me time'....mine is currently living life as a very attractive ornament at the moment and I haven't got a clue what to do with myself lol.


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## Antw23uk (18 May 2017)

SpringArising said:



			It depends on your circumstances. If I was living in a house, with an OH to help, and not also working full time then TBH yes it would be a hell of a lot easier. 

As it stands I live in an apartment so I physically have to walk him rather than just open a door and let him out in the garden while I sit down with a cuppa like I imagine a lot of people can do! My routine is wake up at 6:45 to walk dog for half hour, walk to work at 7:40 to get there for 8, work 8am-12pm, walk home at 12pm, walk dog for 20 mins, walk back to work for 1, work 1-5, get home at 5 and walk dog for an hour, get home, do usual chores, have dinner, do a bit of reading, take dog out at 11pm before bed. Doesn't leave for a lot of 'me' time!
		
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I know people do that whole open the back doors and let them run around but its not in my makeup to do that. We have a damn large garden but three walks a day minimum for them. They have to get out and about even if its a walk to the stables and back at lunchtime!



silv said:



			I am glad you are feeling better about things.  Our Labrador was a monster for his fist year and I had forgotten just how much work puppies are.  We still cannot leave food on the counter tops or its gone as soon as our backs are turned, ditto when I feed my hens.

He is georgous and I think I see a bit of Elkhound in that tail possibly,  sounds like you are giving him a wonderful life and he will eventually grow up to be a well balanced dog.  I would try the crates in your bedroom to keep your collie happy.
		
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I think crating in the bedroom might be the way forward. Off to google Elkhound now ... Whats a typical/ common Romanian dog with a curly tail? He is defo GSDxcollie but there is probably plenty more in there, lol!


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## Thistle (18 May 2017)

That tail looks as though it could come from anything within the Spitz family

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spitz


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## Kaylum (18 May 2017)

Your dog is gorgeous. 

Do you know what I would do I would ask around or look for recommendations and get a 1 to 1 with a dog behaviourist.  Lots of the behaviour your dog is showing is stress related obviously, my little girl had been in rescue kennels and stress stress stress is still on the agenda now but she is getting there.  We have been together since February and I am experienced with terriers but not really with such a stressed dog so her behaviours I didn't understand them.  I contacted a lady who I found on recommendations from various places.  Do you know what she was lovely.  Sat down with me, watched what was happening, told me what was happening, things I wasn't seeing myself, listened to my worries about her, gave me ideas on what to do and that was the best money I had ever spent.  

People can tell you to do this and that but until they see you in a home environment, seeing how you react to these situations you can be making things worse.  What is right for one dog is different to the other dog.  

Since February when we got her - no recall (was told not to let her off the lead by the rescue centre), keep her in a crate at night as she cries, very worried about other dogs and barks constantly in a room full of other dogs, does not like strangers, children or men  Now she has very good recall, she sleeps in her own bed at night in the lounge on her own, still a little worried around other dogs still barks but not as much, fine with children and adores OH and isn't bothered by visitors.  She also has started flyball and we do to dog training classes with the same lady who came to see her every week.  Putting her into situations that are scary for me and well as her (this is the thing I am trying to explain) actually help us both as we cope in them.  We have built up trust.  It is not easy especially with a little scruffy terrier but it is so rewarding. 

I started a blog a few months ago just to see how far we had come and when I look back I just cant believe how much we have both changed. 
https://pepperspawprints.wordpress.com/


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## Nici (18 May 2017)

Antw23uk, you really do sound like you have heaps of experience with dog training&behaviour. If you think the puppy is too much for your household and you have genuinely tried to make it work, please don't feel guilty about finding a more suitable home for him.
If you do want to keep working with him, Kaylum suggested seeing a dog behaviourist and I agree that a few 1-2-1 sessions might be of use.


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## Pearlsasinger (18 May 2017)

MotherOfChickens said:



			no, didnt mean taking her away-just letting them have their own space and her own bed 


I am surprised at how many of you seem to find it such hard work, dont know why you all bother if its so bad lol. I had two weeks without a dog last year and simply didnt know what to do with myself. Its hard work but I've never regretted any of them, not even the psycho collie rescue.
		
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We had a break of a month and hated it, it was the first 'gap' between dogs in nearly 50 yrs, we had previously always introduced pups to adults and the adults helped with the training. Then we realised that the 2 Rotter pups didn't speak English, what a shock that was to the system! Now they understand every word they hear, even on the TV.
Over the years, we have had dogs eat just about anything you can think of, one lab loved to help herself to eggs and butter from the dresser, if they weren't pushed far enough out of the way. We have had dogs, and not just when they were pups, eat long riding boots, false teeth, spectacles, Christmas cake, £20 note, amongst other things.
Anyone who hasn't learned to make sure the dog can't get it, has either never had a dog or been extremely lucky.

OP, I don't understand why you take the dog to lead the horses, don't you keep them at home? Our horses and dogs share our yard but are never allowed on it together, I prefer to avoid avoidable accidents.


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## MotherOfChickens (18 May 2017)

Pearlsasinger said:



			We had a break of a month and hated it, it was the first 'gap' between dogs in nearly 50 yrs,
		
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we lost our old dog, which was expected but then lost the other-which was not. It was dire although we'd already put a deposit down on a pup so we knew how long we'd have to wait. It was awful-first break for over 20 years. There have been times in my life when the only reason I have got up is to see to my dog, not having that was just horrendous.

We had a dog when I was a kid that ate all sorts of things but it was the beagle cross that made me have to up my game at food security lol.

I am a pet dog owner, I get maybe one puppy every decade-not even that as I've taken on older rescues. Just think puppies are a gift, I absolutely love them. Too soon it seems you are worrying about signs of aging and when you might have to make *that* decision. So I am not having a go, I just love puppies. Part of me is still a little disappointed that it was best for us to get one a bit older as the second dog recently, even though he's a lovely dog.


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## Widgeon (18 May 2017)

MotherOfChickens said:



			no, didnt mean taking her away-just letting them have their own space and her own bed 


I am surprised at how many of you seem to find it such hard work, dont know why you all bother if its so bad lol. I had two weeks without a dog last year and simply didnt know what to do with myself. Its hard work but I've never regretted any of them, not even the psycho collie rescue.
		
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I'm so glad you said that....our puppy is coming home in about 6 weeks and I'm starting to think we must be insane to be even considering a puppy! (this is despite the fact that we are as prepared as we can be and have all the necessary support in place) Really, I should probably be avoiding the internet for the next 6 weeks.


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## Clodagh (18 May 2017)

Widgeon said:



			I'm so glad you said that....our puppy is coming home in about 6 weeks and I'm starting to think we must be insane to be even considering a puppy! (this is despite the fact that we are as prepared as we can be and have all the necessary support in place) Really, I should probably be avoiding the internet for the next 6 weeks.
		
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You will love every minute! Puppy smell, unconditional love, they are a delight, and much nicer than children.  I say the last bit as my mum has had to puppysit a bit for me and she said she would rather have a puppy than another grandchild.


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## Antw23uk (18 May 2017)

Pearlsasinger said:



			We had a break of a month and hated it, it was the first 'gap' between dogs in nearly 50 yrs, we had previously always introduced pups to adults and the adults helped with the training. Then we realised that the 2 Rotter pups didn't speak English, what a shock that was to the system! Now they understand every word they hear, even on the TV.
Over the years, we have had dogs eat just about anything you can think of, one lab loved to help herself to eggs and butter from the dresser, if they weren't pushed far enough out of the way. We have had dogs, and not just when they were pups, eat long riding boots, false teeth, spectacles, Christmas cake, £20 note, amongst other things.
Anyone who hasn't learned to make sure the dog can't get it, has either never had a dog or been extremely lucky.

OP, I don't understand why you take the dog to lead the horses, don't you keep them at home? Our horses and dogs share our yard but are never allowed on it together, I prefer to avoid avoidable accidents.
		
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The horses are at home but its a walk through the driveway and between two neighbours paddocks to get to my fields and stables (about a five minute walk max) and I tend to kill two birds with one stone and take the dog with me unless I'm riding out so I've been doing the same with the pup as so guilty about the time spent with him and I have the motto of never walking anywhere empty handed (as you do when you own horses) The collie is obviously fine with the horses, she stays out of there way and I know she wont go anywhere or do anything but obviously with puppy Im trying to do it all.

Last night I drove to yard (I often do, it takes a minute in the car) and left both dogs in the car whilst i did the horses and then afterwards we had an hour running round the empty paddock, playing ball and jumping some poles on the ground, we had a great time even though it was POURING with rain (none of us will melt, lol) So I kind of think i will start doing that rather than trying to do it all at the same time and its only the odd week when the OH is on lates otherwise normally I do the morning and lunchtime walks and he does the evenings so i can do the horses and ride ect


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## Clodagh (18 May 2017)

Don't forget if he is five months he should only be having a maximum of half an hour walking a day. 
It will be easier if you let it be, promise!


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## honetpot (18 May 2017)

I had a scrounger and a roamer all in one dog.
  I should have known really, her mum used to trot down the road to the village, about a mile, and then trot back. One day she trotted home pregnant to the farmer non- pedigree working lab, so all the pups were very xbred black labs. I had the pick of the litter and I chose her.
  Lovely friendly puppy, but if you left the back gate open a squeak she was gone and as soon as she learned she could raid bins she was in heaven, she also snacked on bird tables. She ate takeaways complete with the foil carton, margarine, 3lbs of unripe tomatoes sat on the window sill, anything she would eat it. She was never starved, she was never hungry and in other ways was well trained.
 When I had the kids I never had to hoover or dropped food, she loved them or the fact they dropped food. 
   As the kids got older more accidents happened and the gate got left open, and off she would trot. She would come back if she knew you could see her, I once caught her hiding in a sugar beet field, ignoring me. I had stood on a bank and look down and as soon as she realised I had seen her she would come back.
   The there are the gullible neighbours who would see this happy waggy dog, think it was lost and feed it. On her collar it said 'do not feed', but it gave her another reason to trot off. If I knew her route from previous calls, I would sit and stake her out in the car, once at 2 in the morning.
   She would squeeze through the smallest of holes, that you would never think a full grown lab could get through.
Would I have had her if I had known, my RPCA collie had issues but we managed to train her, but the black lab was a roamer and a thief at every opportunity till the day she died , and who wants a half grown lab x? She caused a lot of arguments, and I had a women shouting at me for letting my dog roam. There was no letting.
  So I think if you can rehome the dog do not feel bad, if its really causing that much trouble. I now appreciate the dogs I now have, but its luck that they are so little trouble.


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## Pearlsasinger (18 May 2017)

Your latest post sounds as if you have found a way forward, just take care not to over exercise him, or you could be setting up health problems for the future.

I have to admit that I could never puppy walk, as gorgeous as they are, they are hard work and you are only just getting over the hard work when it is time to give them back.


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## CorvusCorax (18 May 2017)

Just read one of your most recent posts. If your dog was born in a shelter from Romanian street dog heritage there will only be one thing in your dog's DNA. Survival. Eat on the run, fight or flight. It's additionally hard to condition a dog like this which may come from generations of semi or fully feral dogs, to fit into the average family home.

IMO it is a fallacy to think that a puppy is a blank canvas. Certain traits echo through generations. A bitch carries a puppy for nine weeks and raises it for the same amount of time.

We pick certain types of horses for dressage, showjumping, pulling a cart. Collies herd, bloodhounds trail, terriers like going down holes. We go to types and breeds because of genetics.
To think that dogs only inherit some qualities but not others doesn't make sense. So you have an added challenge in that this dog is not inherently bred to fit into a normal busy northern European household. So well done for getting this far.


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## Antw23uk (19 May 2017)

Thanks all, no definitely not over exercising him, im a real stickler for that. I didnt stop advising friends when they got a lab puppy about how important it is to keep walks to a minimum ... of course they didnt listen and the dog has just spent ten weeks in a crate after having his elbows sorted thanks to the three hour walks they were giving im at 4 months old!!! He's a year old and knackered thanks to them!

We have been in contact with the charity and he will be looking for a new home. I'm too upset to go into details but we have to think of our existing dog and she is becoming miserable with him around and we are pretty miserable as well although always staying positive when around him. It's sad, i feel guilt ridden (and so i damn well should!) but I know in my heart its the right thing for him and us. I've actually gone from being on his side to now not liking him very much at all!  Hate myself right now so please keep the hate to a minimum. Thanks.


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## Thistle (19 May 2017)

((((((HUGS))))))


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## Kaylum (19 May 2017)

Antw23uk said:



			Thanks all, no definitely not over exercising him, im a real stickler for that. I didnt stop advising friends when they got a lab puppy about how important it is to keep walks to a minimum ... of course they didnt listen and the dog has just spent ten weeks in a crate after having his elbows sorted thanks to the three hour walks they were giving im at 4 months old!!! He's a year old and knackered thanks to them!

We have been in contact with the charity and he will be looking for a new home. I'm too upset to go into details but we have to think of our existing dog and she is becoming miserable with him around and we are pretty miserable as well although always staying positive when around him. It's sad, i feel guilt ridden (and so i damn well should!) but I know in my heart its the right thing for him and us. I've actually gone from being on his side to now not liking him very much at all!  Hate myself right now so please keep the hate to a minimum. Thanks.
		
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Heartbreaking for you.  But remember if you can't cope your dog won't cope - that is one thing I have learnt, at least the charity are helping him get a new home that is positive.


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## Clodagh (19 May 2017)

CorvusCorax said:



			Just read one of your most recent posts. If your dog was born in a shelter from Romanian street dog heritage there will only be one thing in your dog's DNA. Survival. Eat on the run, fight or flight. It's additionally hard to condition a dog like this which may come from generations of semi or fully feral dogs, to fit into the average family home.

IMO it is a fallacy to think that a puppy is a blank canvas. Certain traits echo through generations. A bitch carries a puppy for nine weeks and raises it for the same amount of time.

We pick certain types of horses for dressage, showjumping, pulling a cart. Collies herd, bloodhounds trail, terriers like going down holes. We go to types and breeds because of genetics.
To think that dogs only inherit some qualities but not others doesn't make sense. So you have an added challenge in that this dog is not inherently bred to fit into a normal busy northern European household. So well done for getting this far.
		
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A very good post, I hadn't realised he was an import. 
I think you are doing the right thing to rehome him, OP.


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## MotherOfChickens (19 May 2017)

no hate here, hope the charity can get you sorted out soon with the right home for him.


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## Antw23uk (19 May 2017)

MotherOfChickens said:



			no hate here, hope the charity can get you sorted out soon with the right home for him.
		
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Thank you, we will work with the charity with him still living with us. It makes sense to keep his routine and training in place rather tha move him to a foster home.

CorvusCorax - thank you, thats something I certainly didnt think of or appreciate enough and im sure most people dont. Doesnt make it any easier but thanks for sharing.


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## pippixox (19 May 2017)

your first dog comes first.
do not feel guilty, it sounds like you have done everything right and given everything time. 
my friends had a cookerpoo bitch and a few years later they got a cookerpoo boy puppy. they tried for 6 months and there bitch got more and more withdrawn and grumpy. so they found a friend who wanted the puppy. he now has a great home and she is much happier. you just don't know with some dogs.

this is not a personal criticism to you- you are clearly a sensible dog owner who wanted to help a rescue. but it really worries me how many charities are shipping in foreign dogs. as previous poster said- lots are street dogs, not pet dogs. many have hidden problems at first. so seem great and quickly get re-homed, only to be returned in a few months. but I have heard of some dogs who's original small charity that takes dogs from abroad is no longer running so they have no support or back up so go to a pound or try and find another charity


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## Slightlyconfused (19 May 2017)

Dobiegirl said:



			He is still a puppy, if you had bought an 8week puppy from a breeder you could well have the same problems.

If you really are not up to this send him back but dont get another, it seems to me you are looking for a carbon copy of your resident dog.

You allowed your heart to rule your head when you first got him and now the reality has kicked in you realise what a lot of work youve taken on which you dont want

There are lots of ways to deal with this dog as regards when you are doing the horses as Cally suggested pop him in the stable or pop a muzzle on him but you want your old life back so send him back to the rescue and I hope they rehome him to someone who is actually committed.
		
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Yep. 

I know you are in the mk area, Google MyPetGets dog training, Jeni who runs it is fab


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## Blanche (19 May 2017)

CorvusCorax said:



			Just read one of your most recent posts. If your dog was born in a shelter from Romanian street dog heritage there will only be one thing in your dog's DNA. Survival. Eat on the run, fight or flight. It's additionally hard to condition a dog like this which may come from generations of semi or fully feral dogs, to fit into the average family home.

IMO it is a fallacy to think that a puppy is a blank canvas. Certain traits echo through generations. A bitch carries a puppy for nine weeks and raises it for the same amount of time.

We pick certain types of horses for dressage, showjumping, pulling a cart. Collies herd, bloodhounds trail, terriers like going down holes. We go to types and breeds because of genetics.
To think that dogs only inherit some qualities but not others doesn't make sense. So you have an added challenge in that this dog is not inherently bred to fit into a normal busy northern European household. So well done for getting this far.
		
Click to expand...

I listened to a podcast or TED talk(can't remember which) by a man called Mark Wolynn where he talked about inherited family trauma. He talked at length about the experiments that he had done with mice. Fascinating subject.

Antw23uk-  Hugs for you all at this time. Not an easy decision , well done being brave enough to make it.


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## Amymay (19 May 2017)

MotherOfChickens said:



			no hate here, hope the charity can get you sorted out soon with the right home for him.
		
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Absolutely.  And remember, you've given him a great start x


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## Emma_H (19 May 2017)

I feel for you, I really do. 

In the same position as you, still at the "what the heck have I done stage" and it's been nearly 2 months with a 9 month old.
Taking every day as it comes and persevering but it isn't easy in the slightest. We have our ups and downs but getting there slowly, very very very slowly


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