# Buck Brannaman vs. Monty Roberts



## better half (9 June 2011)

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/06/12/m...rer-and-now-movie-star.html?pagewanted=2&_r=2

At Monty Roberts early Demo's that I went to he sold 'The Horse Whisperer' book and said it was about him.  

The book 'Thanks' Tom Dorrance, Ray Hunt and Buck Brannaman who seem to have more empathy, for any one who was lucky enough to see Ray Hunt in action will know what I mean he came over to Warwickshire in 1997.  I have not seen Buck Brannaman, but if he trained with Tom Dorrance I think we are about to see a new level of NH.


----------



## amandap (9 June 2011)

Post deleted because I am not interested in vs bashing threads anymore. I want to learn not spend my time bashing.


----------



## perfect11s (9 June 2011)

Amazing man ..the real deal  and I must get his book of the shelf and re read it  wasn't it him that monty based his life story on??


----------



## amandap (9 June 2011)

Ooops looks like I've fallen into the trap of responding to another 'bashing' thread. Yuk.


----------



## perfect11s (9 June 2011)

amandap said:



 Ooops looks like I've fallen into the trap of responding to another 'bashing' thread. Yuk.
		
Click to expand...

 I hope it dosent go that way ,but people look up and read about Buck and the amazing  people like Bill and Tom  Dorrance /Ray Hunt instead..


----------



## amandap (9 June 2011)

I am familiar with all those names and have read books. Anyone interested in NH and improving themselves will look around. Great to mention other names etc. but the clue to the tone of the thread is in the title 'vs' and your first response. 
I think 'Believe' is BB's best book. Many owners with personal issues as well as horsemanship issues. Par for the course really. 
Anyway I'm off.


----------



## Fellewell (9 June 2011)

Well he doesn't seem to talk jargon; which is nice

"All your horses are a mirror to your soul and sometimes you might not like what you see in the mirror"

That's a great quote


----------



## better half (9 June 2011)

We can all learn from open debate.  That is why I love this forum.


----------



## Tinypony (9 June 2011)

Buck Brannaman was the horseman involved in The Horse Whisperer, that has been confirmed by himself and the author several times.  Interestingly to some, he and his brother had an awful life with their physcially abusive father, who worked them hard and beat them up regularly.  This is documented fact and they were eventually taken into care and fostered.
I'm not getting into Monty bashing, what he says is up to him.
People often speak about the scene where the horse is laid down in the Horse Whisperer as being abusive, and Buck B responds to this very well in one of his books.  Basically, he explains all about the horse he used in filming and says that the film isn't intended to be about horse training, it's a love story.
I don't know if we are about to see a new level of NH, Buck has been around for a very long time and is well known.  I am fairly certain he'd be horrified to be called a new level of NH.  I suppose he's a vaquero cowboy, but I'm not sure what description he'd apply to himself!  We're talking precisely trained horses and riders, horses carrying themselves well and independently.  Not the scuffling with heads down that some associate with western riding.  You can find out a lot about his style of horsemanship if you look at the Eclectic Horseman website, and maybe subscribe to the magazine.  I think it shows that the people behind that site, including Buck, don't think that there is only one way of doing things with horses.
If Buck came to the UK, which I doubt he needs to, I think many people would be pretty shocked by some of what he does.  He can be pretty tough, but would make sure that was a short experience for the horse, ideally never repeated.  He can also be so gentle and soft, and I think he has amazing empathy with the horses, with great timing and feel.  Whatever you think about his methods, it is clear that his starting point is his absolute and unswerving love of horses.  He loves horses so much that he can be frighteningly intolerant of the people that come with them.  I have seen him in a clinic berating a rider for making her horse heavy, sorting things out with the horse, then handing it back saying something along the lines of "there you go, see how quickly you can mess your horse up again.  He doesn't deserve that.".  He can be very scarey.
I learn with a friend who has been said to be "Like Buck Brannaman with customer care". (But I'm not going to advertise here!).  While I understand some of what Buck is doing, I find it a bit too full-on for my liking and try to learn a little of the sort of stuff he teaches but differently.  I would be far too frightened to ride with him.


----------



## Tinypony (9 June 2011)

Betterhalf, the "new level of NH" is already here, and always has been.


----------



## better half (9 June 2011)

Tinypony said:



			Buck Brannaman was the horseman involved in The Horse Whisperer, that has been confirmed by himself and the author several times.  Interestingly to some, he and his brother had an awful life with their physcially abusive father, who worked them hard and beat them up regularly.  This is documented fact and they were eventually taken into care and fostered.
I'm not getting into Monty bashing, what he says is up to him.
People often speak about the scene where the horse is laid down in the Horse Whisperer as being abusive, and Buck B responds to this very well in one of his books.  Basically, he explains all about the horse he used in filming and says that the film isn't intended to be about horse training, it's a love story.
I don't know if we are about to see a new level of NH, Buck has been around for a very long time and is well known.  I am fairly certain he'd be horrified to be called a new level of NH.  I suppose he's a vaquero cowboy, but I'm not sure what description he'd apply to himself!  We're talking precisely trained horses and riders, horses carrying themselves well and independently.  Not the scuffling with heads down that some associate with western riding.  You can find out a lot about his style of horsemanship if you look at the Eclectic Horseman website, and maybe subscribe to the magazine.  I think it shows that the people behind that site, including Buck, don't think that there is only one way of doing things with horses.
If Buck came to the UK, which I doubt he needs to, I think many people would be pretty shocked by some of what he does.  He can be pretty tough, but would make sure that was a short experience for the horse, ideally never repeated.  He can also be so gentle and soft, and I think he has amazing empathy with the horses, with great timing and feel.  Whatever you think about his methods, it is clear that his starting point is his absolute and unswerving love of horses.  He loves horses so much that he can be frighteningly intolerant of the people that come with them.  I have seen him in a clinic berating a rider for making her horse heavy, sorting things out with the horse, then handing it back saying something along the lines of "there you go, see how quickly you can mess your horse up again.  He doesn't deserve that.".  He can be very scarey.
I learn with a friend who has been said to be "Like Buck Brannaman with customer care". (But I'm not going to advertise here!).  While I understand some of what Buck is doing, I find it a bit too full-on for my liking and try to learn a little of the sort of stuff he teaches but differently.  I would be far too frightened to ride with him.





Click to expand...

Very interesting thank you.


----------



## better half (9 June 2011)

Tinypony said:



			Betterhalf, the "new level of NH" is already here, and always has been.  

Click to expand...

I am not sure what you mean.


----------



## jeeve (9 June 2011)

Absolutely Agree perfect 11s

They have a lot of stuff for people who want to learn, absolutely amazing and dedicated horsemen.


----------



## better half (9 June 2011)

amandap said:



			I think 'Believe' is BB's best book. Many owners with personal issues as well as horsemanship issues. Par for the course really. 
Anyway I'm off. 

Click to expand...


I don't know 'Believe'

but Ray Hunt has a great book called 'Cowboy Logic' good photo's and great quotes.   Like:  'Recognize the smallest change, the slightest try'.

He shows how subtle horsemanship can be.


----------



## intouch (9 June 2011)

Tinypony said:



			I learn with a friend who has been said to be "Like Buck Brannaman with customer care".
		
Click to expand...

"Like"

Great to see people looking behind the headlines, so many people are out there doing great work for horses without a huge publicity contingent.


----------



## Tinypony (9 June 2011)

Betterhalf, Buck Brannaman has been teaching in the US for many years, there are others like Jack Brainard and Martin Black if you like the sort of style that Buck teaches, they are just the first to come to mind.  In the UK, Steve Halfpenny comes over twice a year, and is very much along the same lines.  He has just been to Light Hands Horsemanship (you can Google) and it will be interesting to see what he's brought back from that.
There's loads of interesting stuff going on that stretches what people tend to label as NH.  It's not NH really, just horsemanship (from different angles maybe?).


----------



## perfect11s (9 June 2011)

better half said:



			I don't know 'Believe'

but Ray Hunt has a great book called 'Cowboy Logic' good photo's and great quotes.   Like:  'Recognize the smallest change, the slightest try'.

He shows how subtle horsemanship can be.
		
Click to expand...

 I was lucky enough to meet Ray and his family a a few years ago  he was  a truely amazing horseman....   Feel,Timing and Balance...


----------



## Golf Girl (9 June 2011)

How interesting! The new film looks good, here's a link to the trailer for those interested

http://youtu.be/IShjmWYuHZ0


----------



## darkhorse123 (9 June 2011)

im feeling pretty bad now as a novice - again - i really dont understand the argument  - how can anyone not like monty - hes non violence, enough for me xxx


----------



## Tinypony (9 June 2011)

Has anyone said they don't like Monty?  I'm not saying that I do, but I haven't said I don't...  Yes, he does say he is non violence.
I think it is very interesting to see lots of different horse people in action.


----------



## intouch (9 June 2011)

The more trainers you see, the better equipped you are to decide what will work for you and a particular horse.  Watch and learn, you'll see some things you like and can replicate, and somethings you don't like - or maybe don't understand at the time - but file it all away and become an educated, discriminatory (sp??) horseperson.


----------



## TarrSteps (10 June 2011)

Buck has actually written 4 books, the first of which, _ Groundwork _ was published in 1997 and the most well known, _ The Far Away Horses _ in 2003.  He was already well known before that and, of course, comes from a very established tradition.  Tom Dorrance's book, _True Unity_, and Ray Hunt's _ Think Harmony With Horses_ are both "must reads" on the subject.  Both were published in the mid 90s but their authors were well known before and regularly referenced in magazines etc.  

As a transplanted North American it's interesting to me to see who is "popular" or "new" here.  There are some trainers who are/were HUGE in the US but almost undiscussed here, perhaps most notably John Lyons, who is in some ways one of the most "mainstream" in that he's written a large number of books, used to publish a magazine, has a host of dvds etc.  (He's also very religious - perhaps that doesn't play so well out of the US.  )  I saw a reference on here recently to Chris Irwin's work - very popular in Canada (because he is one) and perhaps a bit more "low key" in his training methods than some of the big name Americans.  At the very least, "new" is a relative term because often people who are new here have been going somewhere else for decades.


----------



## TarrSteps (10 June 2011)

Another "old master" http://www.amazon.co.uk/Monte-Foremans-Horse-Training-Science/dp/0806115831  (Maybe a bit "old school" by many standards but an interesting blending of the study of the horse with practical work.)

This is an interesting, if not entirely unbiased, overview of a number of systems http://www.amazon.co.uk/Top-Horse-Training-Methods-Explored/dp/0715317768.

Oh, and then there's this guy from 1908 http://www.jessebeery.com/background/, or John Rarey http://www.rarey.com/sites/jsrarey/, from the mid 1800s, published in 1850. . . as they say, there are no new stories. 

I know the "point" of this thread, btw , I'm just saying that there is LOTS of information out there and a wide range of views on the subject.  I'd also say they aren't really that disparate if you leave out some of the cheerleading.  After all, horses are only ever horses.


----------



## Tinypony (10 June 2011)

I did some stuff with a John Lyons trainer who was in the UK for a while.  It was interesting, maybe not quite what I was looking for, but I got some good ideas from him.
Rarey is interesting and controversial!  
I saw Phil Rodey in Australia a few times, and he is a fascinating trainer.   Then there's Phillip Nye in Tasmania, but he doesn't emerge to teach very often.  He blew me away.
It's all a great adventure isn't it?


----------



## amandap (10 June 2011)

TarrSteps said:



			I'm just saying that there is LOTS of information out there and a wide range of views on the subject.  I'd also say they aren't really that disparate if you leave out some of the cheerleading.  After all, horses are only ever horses. 

Click to expand...

Interesting links Tarrsteps, thanks. 

I'm not familiar with and haven't heard of some of the people you and Tinypony mention but I'd agree to a large extent with your quote above.  
I've yet to find any trainer or theory that fits 100% with me.  I don't expect to either tbh, we are all individuals with minds and experiences of our own. I don't wish to be a clone or robot if I can help it. 

Mta... perhaps it's interpretation of some theories I don't fit 100% with? lol


----------



## TarrSteps (10 June 2011)

On the Antipodean front, Tom Roberts and his "Horse Control" books (published early 70s although clearly reprints) are also very good reading.  I find him particularly interesting because although he lived and worked in Australia most of his life, he was in the British Army in WWI, received a fair bit of Cavalry and classical training, and is considered by many "the man who brought dressage to Australia".  So an interesting mix of approaches and an emphasis on producing "English-style" competition horses.  

I think it can also be a case of understanding context, too.  Some very well known trainers actually have a fairly narrow background - lots of horses, years of experience, but with a limited range of types of horses and desired end results.  Some practices and philosophies transfer well, some need tweaking to be truly appropriate for other areas.  There also seems to be a real desire to place the "New World" schools and trainers - North American, Australia etc. - over other traditions, which may be equally thoughtful and "horse-centric".  People love a cowboy.   They also love black and white, so it turns into a competition rather than a recognition of common ground.

I was most entertained when the Parellis (don't freak out, it's just an example  ) teamed up with a well known dressage trainer and bought a horse for big money at Verden or similar with lots of hue and cry about how they were going to make a top class GP horse using only their methods.  Never heard another word about it.  The NH system is not about making top class GP horses.  Elements and principles of the approach can be incorporated but at the end of the day there are some fundamental differences in the desired end results and anyone looking to mix and match programs has to understand what, when and how much.

I do think there's a lot to be said for really learning about a system before you embrace or condemn it, as it's impossible to see how it all fits together long term from a few moments here and there.  But I also think it's important to keep your ultimate goals in mind and keep asking yourself "Does this/will this benefit me and my horse?" at each step on the way.

By definition, it's hard to assess information you're not familiar with and anything "new" - to you at least - is going to seem exciting and potentially a pot of gold.  But you only get to know a system by using it and that feeling of excitement will inevitably wear off.  The proof is in the long term results.  (Although people do have to remember, these days, the "result" some programs are trying to attain is profit.  )  People and programs go in and out of fashion, not because they're necessarily "good" or "bad" but because that's the way the world works.


----------



## better half (12 June 2011)

TarrSteps said:



			I think it can also be a case of understanding context, too.  Some very well known trainers actually have a fairly narrow background - lots of horses, years of experience, but with a limited range of types of horses and desired end results.  

I do think there's a lot to be said for really learning about a system before you embrace or condemn it, as it's impossible to see how it all fits together long term from a few moments here and there.  But I also think it's important to keep your ultimate goals in mind and keep asking yourself "Does this/will this benefit me and my horse?" at each step on the way.

By definition, it's hard to assess information you're not familiar with and anything "new" - to you at least - is going to seem exciting and potentially a pot of gold.  But you only get to know a system by using
		
Click to expand...


I think open debate like this can save the time and effort, to work out form other peoples experiences what will and won't work long term, and save the horses bad experiences.


----------



## tallyho! (12 June 2011)

No, I don't think it should save time and effort, I think if someone is interested they should look at everything available. Yes, I agree, a forum can help form opinions but it should not MAKE them. You need to still work things out for yourself because each individual connection/partnership is totally different.


----------



## better half (13 June 2011)

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/top-st...-in-the-queen-s-honours-list-115875-23193646/


----------



## Chavhorse (13 June 2011)

better half said:



http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/top-st...-in-the-queen-s-honours-list-115875-23193646/

Click to expand...

And your point is?


----------



## TarrSteps (13 June 2011)

better half said:



			I think open debate like this can save the time and effort, to work out form other peoples experiences what will and won't work long term, and save the horses bad experiences.
		
Click to expand...

I think a free exchange of ideas is essential but I stand by my point that it's not really a "this guy vs that guy" conversation, it's about various methods, their long term repercussions etc.  You know what they say, ask three horsemen, get four opinions. 

That said, my experience of GREAT horsemen - from all disciplines - is that they are remarkably open and interested in how other people get things done with horses.  They don't necessarily take other people's methods for their own, even ones they approve of, because they may not be applicable to their circumstances or fit in with the rest of their system or even just be something they want to do.  There is more than one way to make a good horse.

How people come across PERSONALLY is a different conversation.  But I do think, especially here, oddly enough, this has often detracted from an accurate picture of various methods and people's horsemanship.  Just like in any other field of riding.  It's easy to get caught up in the hype, both for and against.

I also think that while the internet is a great forum for discussion, it particularly falls down when judging how accurate someone's ideas about horses and riding might be.  It's impossible to tell a posters background, level of experience or their personal interaction with the various systems - they may have been taught by the best proponent, they may have experienced the worst, there is no way to tell!  I'm surprised how many people for VERY strong opinions with no first hand, or even second hand knowledge.  Everyone is, of course, entitled to their opinion but I do think sometimes people find it easier to be "against" something - in any walk of life - than face the messy reality that there may be valid ideas in systems that don't appeal over all or that are put forward by people who are otherwise not particularly attractive!


----------



## better half (13 June 2011)

Chavhorse said:



			And your point is?
		
Click to expand...

Credit where it is due.


----------



## Chavhorse (13 June 2011)

better half said:



			Credit where it is due.
		
Click to expand...

I was hoping it was something like that.


----------



## lassiesuca (13 June 2011)

Do I get a vote for 'neither'? 

I think these NH trainers are over-rated and most of it is pretty corrupt and inaccurate.


----------



## tristar (13 June 2011)

i think any trainer nh or otherwise who puts down their pupils as mentioned earlier is wrong.

 people should be encouraged to be their best, even the most novice rider  can have some positive qualities on which to build.

 as the rider is in charge of the horse it is the teacher 's job is to not give up until the pupil understands thoroughly and confidently how to proceed, and ask for what he wants the horse to perform. 

 to tell someone to go away and ruin the horse again, is not only rude it proves the teacher has failed to get their pupil to the next level and their lack of faith in the pupil is their own condemnation


----------



## Golf Girl (13 June 2011)

tristar said:



			i think any trainer nh or otherwise who puts down their pupils as mentioned earlier is wrong.

 people should be encouraged to be their best, even the most novice rider  can have some positive qualities on which to build.

 as the rider is in charge of the horse it is the teacher 's job is to not give up until the pupil understands thoroughly and confidently how to proceed, and ask for what he wants the horse to perform. 

 to tell someone to go away and ruin the horse again, is not only rude it proves the teacher has failed to get their pupil to the next level and their lack of faith in the pupil is their own condemnation
		
Click to expand...

Rude, perhaps. We weren't there so we can't judge. But just because someone is a good horseman it doesn't necessarily follow that they're also a good teacher. As the old saying goes 'Those who can, do, and those who can't, teach'


----------



## tristar (13 June 2011)

those who can do, those who can't teach?????



what heck does that mean!


----------



## fburton (13 June 2011)

tristar said:



			those who can do, those who can't teach?????

what heck does that mean!
		
Click to expand...

You missed out a couple of crucial commas.

It means that those who _can_ do something actually do it, whereas those who _can't_ do something merely teach about it.


----------



## fburton (13 June 2011)

tristar said:



			i think any trainer nh or otherwise who puts down their pupils as mentioned earlier is wrong.
		
Click to expand...

What about the trainer who puts down those who aren't their pupils?


----------



## Kelly Marks (13 June 2011)

Why does it have to be 'versus'?  Why not ask what we can learn from both of them?  I certainly encourage my students to take the opportunity to learn from everyone they can - why wouldn't I?  The only people no-one wants to watch are those types that knock every other trainer - that's just sad if they've got no other way to promote themselves.

Re. those who can DO, those who can't TEACH - I quote that on my courses as to why it's so important to me to have my own horses so I'm not only continuing to DO but also continuing to learn - Anneli Drummond-Hay said you need at least to lifetimes to learn enough about horses - how brilliant is that comment?!


----------



## amandap (13 June 2011)

fburton said:



			What about the trainer who puts down those who aren't their pupils?
		
Click to expand...

What about the 'pupils' that know it all and put everyone down except *their* 'best'/right and 'most ethical' thinking.


----------



## fburton (13 June 2011)

amandap said:



			What about the 'pupils' that know it all and put everyone down except *their* 'best'/right and 'most ethical' thinking.  

Click to expand...

My reaction to that is... dilated pupils!


----------



## amandap (13 June 2011)

fburton said:



			My reaction to that is... dilated pupils! 



Click to expand...

ROFL!


----------



## Chavhorse (13 June 2011)

IHK said:



			Why does it have to be 'versus'?  Why not ask what we can learn from both of them?  I certainly encourage my students to take the opportunity to learn from everyone they can - why wouldn't I?  The only people no-one wants to watch are those types that knock every other trainer - that's just sad if they've got no other way to promote themselves.
		
Click to expand...

You have said everything  I have wanted to say since this thread started but much better and far more nicely than I could have done.

Like!


----------



## Kelly Marks (14 June 2011)

Thank you ChavHorse!
Kelly


----------



## better half (14 June 2011)

IHK said:



			Why does it have to be 'versus'?  Why not ask what we can learn from both of them?  I certainly encourage my students to take the opportunity to learn from everyone they can - why wouldn't I?  The only people no-one wants to watch are those types that knock every other trainer - that's just sad if they've got no other way to promote themselves.

Re. those who can DO, those who can't TEACH - I quote that on my courses as to why it's so important to me to have my own horses so I'm not only continuing to DO but also continuing to learn -!
		
Click to expand...

I think all trainers should not feel bad about criticism it is how things develop and get better.  MR and IHK sold 1000s of Be-Nice halters.  On a demo tour  years ago they ordered hundreds of Be-Nice pressure halters in U.S. sizes. The horse sizes are much smaller than U.K. horses so towards the end of the tour they had a lot of the small size left.

MR then put the small size on a foal, even though it reared up and went over backwards in the demo all the small sizes sold that night!  At a meeting after, only one person spoke up and was not on the next tour.  I regret not backing them up, but it was a brave thing to question MR.

Pressure halters were used by cowboys in extreme situations to get a horse to fight its way out of a bog, not for ground work schooling. The level of communication in Join-Up is screaming not whispering in my opinion, how long it will take now, to see the psychological bullying is as bad as physical bullying.

Only 10 or more years later did they look into the part of the problem.Monty was originally looking to design an effective training halter for leading and loading that was also humane, practical and easy for anyone to use. He wanted something that did NOT use excessive poll pressure which can cause soreness and rearing  meaning he wanted a material with quality flat surfaces and not rope.  Quote IKM 

Tom Dorrance was the Father of Natural Horsemanship he has a great book called True Unity ISBN 1-884995-09-8.
Monty Roberts was apprentice to Bill Dorrance, Toms brother.
Ray Hunt worked with Tom Dorrance and Parelli went to Ray Hunt Clinics.
 I though with Buck Brannaman it would be interesting to see which bits of Tom Dorrance he saw and learnt.

 Years ago I had lunch with Ray Hunt at a clinic after he had saddled 20 young horses for the first time and had them all in a corral waiting to be ridden after lunch.  He was a very Humble man and said  He would not even call himself a horseman as he still had so much to learn , the only Horseman he knew was Tom Dorrance.   I think those that do know how humbling any horse can be.


----------



## darkhorse123 (14 June 2011)

slightly off topic but im thrilled to hear monty roberts has recived an award from the queen - well deserved achievement for a wonderful man


----------



## tristar (14 June 2011)

i wish i could understand the thinking behind:  those who can't, teach.?


----------



## Tinypony (14 June 2011)

It's just a little saying that people trot out, I don't think it's true.
Those that can, do.
Those that can't, teach.
I think just go see as many as you can and make your minds up from there.


----------



## Golf Girl (14 June 2011)

tristar said:



			i wish i could understand the thinking behind:  those who can't, teach.?
		
Click to expand...

OK, I'll try to explain ...

If you excel at something, then you will 'be' it eg a brilliant musician, scientist, mathematician or whatever. If you're only average at it you probably won't make the grade, and these tend to be the people who end up teaching the subject to others. Nobody can be good at everything - teaching is a skill in its own right. Some people have a gift for teaching, others don't. Those who are gifted in what they do don't necessarily make good teachers.

I hope this makes sense


----------



## amandap (14 June 2011)

Golf Girl said:



			- teaching is a skill in its own right. Some people have a gift for teaching, others don't. Those who are gifted in what they do don't necessarily make good teachers.

I hope this makes sense 

Click to expand...

I agree and that makes sense to me.


----------



## better half (14 June 2011)

Golf Girl said:



			OK, I'll try to explain ...

If you excel at something, then you will 'be' it eg a brilliant musician, scientist, mathematician or whatever. If you're only average at it you probably won't make the grade, and these tend to be the people who end up teaching the subject to others. Nobody can be good at everything - teaching is a skill in its own right. Some people have a gift for teaching, others don't. Those who are gifted in what they do don't necessarily make good teachers.

I hope this makes sense 

Click to expand...

I think if they are that good at just 'doing'  they probably could make a living from 'doing'  any extra teaching could then be as they choose  and there fore not at average price, or just people they like.  Any teacher must first know their subject, so get the best you can afford.


----------



## darkhorse123 (14 June 2011)

better half said:



			Any teacher must first know their subject, so get the best you can afford.
		
Click to expand...

This is not always true - i recently swapped private instructors. 
The first was good but quite expensive and when another instructor came on the yard i thought i would try her
She was excellent and actually suited me better than the first instructor and was a third of the price cheaper.


----------



## Golf Girl (14 June 2011)

darkhorse123 said:





			
				 better half said:
			
		


			Any teacher must first know their subject, so get the best you can afford.
		
Click to expand...

This is not always true - i recently swapped private instructors. 
The first was good but quite expensive and when another instructor came on the yard i thought i would try her
She was excellent and actually suited me better than the first instructor and was a third of the price cheaper.
		
Click to expand...

Agreed. 'More expensive' does not necessarily mean 'better' - ever! The most important thing is to find what suits YOU


----------



## Jane1706 (14 June 2011)

darkhorse123 said:



			This is not always true - i recently swapped private instructors. 
The first was good but quite expensive and when another instructor came on the yard i thought i would try her
She was excellent and actually suited me better than the first instructor and was a third of the price cheaper.
		
Click to expand...

Maybe BH is trying to Push her OH's tagline "Reasurringly Expensive"


----------



## better half (1 July 2011)

Golf Girl said:



			Agreed. 'More expensive' does not necessarily mean 'better' - ever! The most important thing is to find what suits YOU 

Click to expand...

I agree more expensive does not always mean better, but get someone who can 'do' not just talk about it.

  My friend teaches Fencing and had a new student that had so many bad habbits from his last teacher to start again he made him change to Fence with his left hand rather than go back and correct old habbits with his right hand.

Only perfect practice makes perfect.


----------



## wigmon (5 February 2014)

I live in Lexington Kentucky and I'm a Travel Writer and guide for a local touring company named Bluegrass Tours. My job is to lead people around the world's greatest horse farms. Seabiscuit was bred and born here. The movie Sea Biscuit was filmed here and I've watched it probably 20 times because I just love the story. When the movie "Buck" came out last year, I went to see it and all of a sudden I connected, "The Horse Whisper," "Buck" and NH trainer Tom Smith (the trainer of Seabiscuit.) Lexington is rich in the history of Seabiscuit so it fed my interest.

Last September (2013) I spent two glorious consecutive weeks at Buck Brannaman clinics as an observer. If you are a horse lover and have never had the opportunity to see Buck, I suggest you figure it out. I've watched Monty Roberts videos and I think he is a great guy. I don't have any problem with his training or techniques, but Buck isn't putting on a show. He teaches real people with real horses how to do what he does. Sometimes he is short with riders, but only because they are the ones with the problems and they are not willing to learn. It's not their horses fault. Honestly, he doesn't care about the feelings of the riders, he only cares about the horses and from my research and reading, that's how Ray Hunt and Tom Dorrance were too.

I've read all his books and seen all his videos many times but meeting him and seeing him in person was one of the great experiences of my life. Buck Brannaman is a humble gentleman who has devoted his life to helping horses with people problems. He has my ultimate respect.


----------



## eahotson (5 February 2014)

Well slightly off topic BUT if people can't teach without bullying they shouldn't be doing it however good they are in practice.I feel strongly about this as I have met a fair few bullies in the horse teaching world and I won't tolerate it.Most of us are aware that we have many short comings in the horse world and much to learn.Thats why we have lessons, go to demos,read books etc.We are trying and I am sure my instructor would agree with that!!!!!! If you bully people you alienate them and what happens to the horse then.


----------



## SarahF (5 February 2014)

better half said:



			...
MR then put the small size on a foal, even though it reared up and went over backwards in the demo all the small sizes sold that night!  At a meeting after, only one person spoke up and was not on the next tour.  I regret not backing them up, but it was a brave thing to question MR.
		
Click to expand...

I like/respect MR from what I have watched/read. But if this is true it's a sad thing. Horse welfare should always come before brand/profit and people who care for horses should never be discouraged from pointing that out. 

That being said, do you know that this person's questioning of MR was the reason they weren't on the next tour?

That paints a not very nice picture of MR camp politics - which may be undeserved if the reason he didn't attend the next tour was unrelated to the events of said meeting.


----------



## Tinypony (5 February 2014)

SarahF said:



			I like/respect MR from what I have watched/read. But if this is true it's a sad thing. Horse welfare should always come before brand/profit and people who care for horses should never be discouraged from pointing that out. 

That being said, do you know that this person's questioning of MR was the reason they weren't on the next tour?

That paints a not very nice picture of MR camp politics - which may be undeserved if the reason he didn't attend the next tour was unrelated to the events of said meeting.
		
Click to expand...

There are a lot of unpaid volunteers helping on MR tours, so there could be other reasons why this person wasn't at the next one.

I think this is what's termed a Zombie Thread.

Anyway, I hear that Buck B is going to be at the Dublin Show this year.  Might be interesting to some.  Looking at how much time Honza Blaha got last year I do wonder how long he will be seen in an arena though, Honza got little 15 minute slots.


----------



## SarahF (5 February 2014)

Tinypony said:



			There are a lot of unpaid volunteers helping on MR tours, so there could be other reasons why this person wasn't at the next one.

I think this is what's termed a Zombie Thread.
		
Click to expand...

I just had to google "Zombie thread"  learn something new every day lol!
I'm such a forum novice haha!


----------



## Suechoccy (5 February 2014)

Kelly Marks said:



			Why does it have to be 'versus'?  Why not ask what we can learn from both of them?  I certainly encourage my students to take the opportunity to learn from everyone they can - why wouldn't I?
		
Click to expand...

like like like!  my bookshelves have books from all types of trainer, and I go to all types of demo too.


----------

