# Border Collies



## Sprig (1 February 2017)

Do we have any border collie people in our midst? We have just lost our aged lab and are thinking about a second dog to go with our remaining lurcher. I have a friend with a couple of collies, one a 5mth old, who are brilliant and I think are just the kind of dog that would suit our family. I love my lurcher but this time round would like something more trainable. the lurcher is great around the house and out and about but does tend to turn deaf when there is something to chase.
I work one day a week away from home (when the dogs go to a dog sitter) but apart from that I am around all day. Ideally I want a dog that I can take out riding with me as we have direct access to miles of off road hacking. I would also like to do some agility and obedience classes. I have a son who is 7 who would also like to help with training the dog and do something competitive with it in due course. 
We are experienced dog owners with rescue dog experience (helping at a rescue centre as well as having our own rescue dogs) as well but most of the dogs we have owned have been sighthounds. 
We have a good sized house with a decent garden and plenty of time (and inclination) to spend time exercising a collies brain as well as it's legs so I think we should be OK. 
Where have you guys sourced your collies from? We are in no rush but just starting to put feelers out and want to do our research properly. I would also consider a rescue dog but I know that lots  of rescues are reluctant to home this type of dog with children and a reasonable proportion of those dogs in rescues come with 'issues' of varying degrees of severity. I know Wiccaweys come recommended but should I be keeping an eye on other rescue organisations? I think we would probably prefer to go with a puppy though so breeder recommendations appreciated. I have my eye on a few but would be grateful for other opinions. Not fussed about colour of the dog.


----------



## Girlracer (1 February 2017)

Border Collie owner here! Although I got my girl from a local farm, she wasn't a rescue per se, however I didn't go and choose just said I would take her... She was last of the litter, 3 months old and had lived in a barn with no socialising. Unfortunately she was very nervous from the start and despite socialising that has never really left... 

However she is the best dog in the world, despite the fact she is scared of me if I walk in carrying a bag, because I look different... :lol:

She is so trainable, enjoys flyball and agility (although finds chasing yappy terriers much more interesting...). She is highly strung and is easily stressed... but also super cuddly, great fun and gorgeous. 

I know though that she is one of the more highly strung types, and apparently her mum and sister are the same, given a choice I would have chosen one from a more docile better socialised family. I would highly recommend them as a breed though.


----------



## NiceNeverNaughty (1 February 2017)

another collie owner here, we have 4 at the moment but had 7 at one point! Mine are all isds reg trials lines but also kc regd. They primarily did agility (i did this for 20 years) but now help with the sheep on our croft.  If you want well socialised then my advice would be to go for a litter raised in a house and one where the parents have had all the relevant health tests done, not a farm litter, even isds reg - they are seriously hard wired.  Im not keen on show bred types but thats personal preference.. the KC would give you a list of KC breeders if they take your fancy. However if it were me at Id look at obedience / agility type breeders. Get onto agilitynet.com and the agilitynet fb page and people will help you there with looking for a puppy.


----------



## Mosh (1 February 2017)

I've had one before and she was nuts. In a good way! Soft as muck, trainable to a degree, clever and very very friendly. Miss her still. 
My OH has one. Only had him 2 months or so and he was a rescue but we don't think anything too bad has happened to him. He's a big hooligan but also soft as muck, loves cuddles (asleep on my knee at this very moment) he is very trainable and pretty well behaved. Super clever too. 
I do love them as a breed but they are hard work and need something to keep their brains active.


----------



## Sprig (1 February 2017)

Thanks guys. I had already made a note, in order to reduce the risk of issues, to go for a puppy that has been bred in the home and well socialised. I don't think I am so keen on show bred types but I haven't met one in real life. I just get the feeling that they have been bred to look right, possibly at the expense of temperament and health.


----------



## Sprout (1 February 2017)

I have a Collie ( had them before too) - she is SO intelligent,  devoted, fun, realtively easy to have around, comes out with the horses, down the pub, on holiday etc.

My previous Collies were from working lines and were SO wired, but Daisy is from Agility/Obedience lines and is much easier and calm. She came from MastaMariner near Hook/Alton.
Good Luck, hope you find a good one.


----------



## Sprig (1 February 2017)

Thanks Sprout. I have just looked at the MastaMariner website. Sadly they will not place puppies in families with children under 12 years old. It seems a shame really as they sound like they produce great dogs.


----------



## Moobli (1 February 2017)

We currently have 12 collies - all working sheepdogs.  We occasionally breed when we need a new pup for the farm, or buy from other shepherds/farmers from proven working parents.  Some of our dogs are ISDS registered and some unregistered - it isn't important to us.  We only buy from eye tested parents though.

You sound like a very good collie home but I would urge you to read this excellent article so you go into border collie ownership with your eyes fully open.

http://agilitynet.co.uk/training/bordercollie_suekitchen_leewindeatt.html

If the above article doesn't put you off then I would advise to buy from either agility/obedience breeders or if you do go for a farm bred pup then choose it very carefully.  Ensure they are well reared and socialised and that the parents have excellent natures.  If you buy from an ISDS litter then you are assured that both parents have passed eye tests, otherwise ask - and ask to see paperwork.

From your description, I would advise against show line border collies as they may not have the typical collie traits and personality, and may well lack enough "oomph" for obedience and agility.

While we have always only sold to working homes in the past, we have discussed potentially allowing some pups from our next planned litter to go to good active pet homes who will do obedience/agility etc as excellent working homes are getting harder to find.  

Here are some of our current gang ...


----------



## Sprig (1 February 2017)

Thanks working GSD, I was wondering if you might reply as I had seen you comment on some previous border collie threads. Your gang look great. If you have any recommendations for breeders further south that would be brilliant.
Interestingly one of my other options on the shortlist for a dog was a GSD but I wasn't sure how suitable they would be for running alongside the horse in the summer as we often cover some considerable distance. Do you still have GSDs? What are your thoughts? Also is it relatively straightforward to find breeders of 'proper' working type GSDs, rather than odd shape show dogs? Thanks


----------



## Moobli (1 February 2017)

Sprig said:



			Thanks working GSD, I was wondering if you might reply as I had seen you comment on some previous border collie threads. Your gang look great. If you have any recommendations for breeders further south that would be brilliant.
Interestingly one of my other options on the shortlist for a dog was a GSD but I wasn't sure how suitable they would be for running alongside the horse in the summer as we often cover some considerable distance. Do you still have GSDs? What are your thoughts? Also is it relatively straightforward to find breeders of 'proper' working type GSDs, rather than odd shape show dogs? Thanks
		
Click to expand...

Whereabouts are you and I will see if I can think of any breeders I would recommend nearer to you (PM me if you prefer).

Yes I still have GSDs (of course! they are THE best breed ).  I would say if you were to go down the route of a working line GSD then research your breeder very carefully.  There are many excellent breeders out there (and I am happy to recommend one or two if you like).  A well bred working line is every bit as athletic and energetic as a border collie and could easily be trained to follow your horse.

Something else to think about


----------



## Moobli (1 February 2017)

My current working line GSD (any excuse!).  If all goes to plan I will be bringing a son (or daughter) of his home from Denmark in November.  A lady in Dorset had a pup from the Danish bitch's last litter and is hoping to get another one this year - so she may bring one back for you too (depending on how far away you are and how long you want to wait  )


----------



## Alec Swan (1 February 2017)

WorkingGSD said:



			&#8230;&#8230;..





[/URL]
		
Click to expand...

Now that dog's got a hard eye.  He may not suit everyone,  but that's exactly what I look for.  

A grand pup.

Alec.


----------



## Sprig (1 February 2017)

What a handsome dog! What are your thoughts on GSD vs border collie for what I want out of a dog?


----------



## Alec Swan (1 February 2017)

^^^^ Who me,  or anyone?

Alec.


----------



## Sprig (1 February 2017)

The question was directed at WorkingGSD originally (I cross posted with you), but happy to have input from anyone.


----------



## NiceNeverNaughty (1 February 2017)

GSD - that black faced pup is to die for!!!!! 

you will get more up to date breeders from agilitynet fb page but here are a couple off the top of my head

http://www.bannetstane.co.uk/bannetstane2.htm

http://www.bryningbordercollies.com/Agility-Dogs

http://www.borderstorm.co.uk


----------



## Sprig (1 February 2017)

Thanks Neverever, I will look them up when I am at home on my proper computer.


----------



## Moobli (1 February 2017)

Alec Swan said:



			Now that dog's got a hard eye.  He may not suit everyone,  but that's exactly what I look for.  

A grand pup.

Alec.
		
Click to expand...

He is great - and happy to say I chose him out of the litter   Hubby wasn't keen originally but thinks he is going to make a very good working dog now.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g-348iJO_Ug

Sadly he broke his leg at a year old and so has been out of work for the past few months and is currently under the physio to build him back up again.

Lots of people think he is half GSD


----------



## Moobli (1 February 2017)

Sprig said:



			What a handsome dog! What are your thoughts on GSD vs border collie for what I want out of a dog?
		
Click to expand...

Thank you.  I think he is dreadfully handsome - but of course I may be slightly biased 

From your description of what you are looking for and what you can offer, I think both breeds would be suitable.  Of course there are many variations within the same breed and even within the same litter, so I would definitely stress to research breeders and lines once you have decided on a breed.

Both breeds need lots of positive socialisation and sensitive handling, with plenty of exercise and mental stimulation, training and thrive on companionship.  They are both known to be reactive, but I would say that the average collie is likely to be more sensitive than the average working line GSD.  Equally both breeds could be trained to run alongside your horse but both need time to mature without excess strain being put on joints and to allow bones to finish growing, so no hard exercise until 12 months (collies) and 16-18 months for GSDs.  Agility clubs won't allow dogs under 12 months to do the jumps either, and I would wait a little longer than that with GSDs, as they are a larger, heavier breed.

I don't know if cost is a factor as WL GSDs are around the £650-£900 mark, and I am sure fully health tested border collies will be similar (although others will know better than me).  ISDS collies from a shepherd/farmer are around the £350-£400ish mark and for non registered they can be anything from £100-£300 per pup.  Insurance may also be more for a GSD than a BC and a large GSD will obviously eat more than a small collie.

If you did go for a WL GSD, I think I would be tempted to advise a bitch, as they tend to be on the smaller and more lithe side in terms of structure, which will be advantageous for sports such as agility and they tend to be easier to handle for the first time owner.

Got your PM so will reply now


----------



## Britestar (1 February 2017)

Another BC owner here. Farm bred relatively locally. One of 12 in the litter. 

Was the shy fat one, who hid under a chicken feeder when I went to see him. Turned out to be the friendliest, skinniest dog ever.

Super intelligent, and really quick to learn.

Is now the poster boy for my business, so admired on a regular basis


----------



## Cahill (1 February 2017)

have a look on here...http://agilitynet.co.uk/clutch/rescues.htm


----------



## Britestar (1 February 2017)

There is preloved border collies if you are thinking of a rescue

http://www.protectingprelovedbordercollies.org.uk


----------



## bonny (1 February 2017)

I've had collies all my life and wouldn't have any other breed now. Currently have a 16 year old who has had a few problems recently but is hale and healthy at the moment. I was looking for another collie as she is getting on and I wanted another before she left us and I was amazed and saddened by the number of young, around 6 month old ones looking for a new home, presumably the reality of owning one was dawning on their owners, or there are alot of people suddenly moving house or becoming allergic to them ! I ended up with a Kelpie cross border collie who is great but a lot more work than a border collie. He should really be a working dog, needs a lot more exercise but has been very easy to have around and if you want something a bit different I would recommend them to anyone who wants a dog to do agility etc.


----------



## Moobli (1 February 2017)

Border Collie Spot definitely worth a look too ...

https://www.facebook.com/groups/thebordercolliespot/


----------



## Umbongo (1 February 2017)

Another Border Collie owner here.
Mine was farm bred. Quite chunky bone and compact in build. Best family dog ever, loyal, very trainable, loved the cats....all he wanted to do was play and I bet he would've quite happily chased a tennis ball or stick until he died of exhaustion! He would never tire. We got him when I was 13 years old and he was my best friend.
Was ok with dogs he knew well, but he was very dog aggressive with strange dogs so we had to manage him, but if I could own him all over again I would in a heartbeat!


----------



## Oenoke (1 February 2017)

Another Border Collie owner here, I currently have 4 girls.  I compete at agility and flyball.  I like sports line bred dogs, part working (3/4) and a bit of show (1/4).  Make sure parents are hips scored, DNA tested or clear by parentage for  CEA, TNS and CL, has had a BVA eye test in the past year for PRA and puppies will be BAER hearing tested and BVA eye tested at 6 weeks old, also can be gonioscopy tested, DNA tested for IGS, elbow scored.  It's also advisable to check to databases for epilepsy to make sure there isn't any closely related dogs in the line that has thrown a pup with epilepsy.


----------



## TheresaW (1 February 2017)

We recently adopted my OH's late Uncles border collie.  OH has never owned a dog before, whereas I always had a dog when I lived with my parents.  I am very much a GSD fan, and bitches at that, but I can honestly say that Aled has won my heart.  Have absolutely no idea what lines his breeding are, but he is such a joy to have around.  He is 11 now, so we've missed out on all of his upbringing and training, but he has adapted to our lives really well.  He isn't brilliant around the horses, but that is because he isn't used to them.  He has improved loads in the 4 months we've had him though.


----------



## maisie06 (1 February 2017)

Alec Swan said:



			Now that dog's got a hard eye.  He may not suit everyone,  but that's exactly what I look for.  

A grand pup.

Alec.
		
Click to expand...

Forgive my ignorance but does that mean he makes a better working sheepdog, is it to do with staring down a sheep??


----------



## Sprig (2 February 2017)

Thanks for all the info and links everyone. It's great that you all love your collies (and GSDs)!


----------



## CorvusCorax (2 February 2017)

The GSD is a trotting breed and should easily be able to keep up with a horse all day. The late Mrs Barrington of the Brittas kennels used to ride out with seven abreast (all show and/or working trials and obedience champions).
Having said that you do have to start them slower, I didn't do anything high impact with my own until I had seen his x-rays at 12 months. And working lines do have a higher prey drive so I'd probably go 50:50, mainly show with a dollop of working or something from KC obedience or working trials lines. Agree smaller is best, big dogs break quicker and GSDs are supposed to be a medium to large breed, not a giant one.


----------



## LadyGascoyne (2 February 2017)

Mine has been absolutely wonderful. He's been very easy and incredibly adaptable. He's traveled extensively; South Africa and all around Europe. He would go everywhere with me. He takes everything in his stride and behaves impeccably. He has been so easy to teach.

Both of his parents worked but he's shown no interest in sheep- in fact, embarrassingly, he's a bit suspicious of them! He's easy with children, cats, other dogs, poultry and horses.

He's been kept very busy with at least two or three walks a day; usually a morning run, a ride/cycle and a long slow walk after dinner. He's also picked up the role of "helper dog" to my dad who has been left quite disabled after multiple cancer surgeries. Rio's vocabulary is quite extensive. He can identify different kinds of shoes like "boots" or "slippers". He can bring keys, telephone, towel, blanket, open doors, close doors and will bring the phone to my dad if it rings. 

Definitely will stick to BCs going forward. We got ours from a local farm and I bought him because I liked the sire. Lovely, easy dog and an excellent worker. Not that mine has inherited any talent!


----------



## Blanche (2 February 2017)

I don't have a border collie at the moment but have had them in the past. Mine were all farm bred apart from the one who came from a small holding. They were all great dogs and I rode out with one extensively and never had a problem.


----------



## Moobli (2 February 2017)

LadyGascoyne said:



			Mine has been absolutely wonderful. He's been very easy and incredibly adaptable. He's traveled extensively; South Africa and all around Europe. He would go everywhere with me. He takes everything in his stride and behaves impeccably. He has been so easy to teach.

Both of his parents worked but he's shown no interest in sheep- in fact, embarrassingly, he's a bit suspicious of them! He's easy with children, cats, other dogs, poultry and horses.

He's been kept very busy with at least two or three walks a day; usually a morning run, a ride/cycle and a long slow walk after dinner. He's also picked up the role of "helper dog" to my dad who has been left quite disabled after multiple cancer surgeries. Rio's vocabulary is quite extensive. He can identify different kinds of shoes like "boots" or "slippers". He can bring keys, telephone, towel, blanket, open doors, close doors and will bring the phone to my dad if it rings. 

Definitely will stick to BCs going forward. We got ours from a local farm and I bought him because I liked the sire. Lovely, easy dog and an excellent worker. Not that mine has inherited any talent!






Click to expand...

He's gorgeous!  Just my type of collie


----------



## Alec Swan (2 February 2017)

maisie06 said:



			Forgive my ignorance but does that mean he makes a better working sheepdog, is it to do with staring down a sheep??
		
Click to expand...

Sorry for the late reply.  Sheepdog-speak doesn't always make sense,  I agree!  It's all to do with how the dog deals with his sheep and how they in turn view the dog.  Some dogs have 'power' over sheep,  whilst others are weak.  Sheep that are accustomed to a dog which is strong and means it,  will laugh their little socks of at a dog which is weak,  and all but ignore it.

I had a dog (now gone to heaven) and with sheep at 100 yards and him at heel,  they would form in to a flock as I walked in to their field.  I've had some sheepdog 'trialers' who would bring dogs out and the sheep would all but ignore the dog.

'Eye' is another important point because some dogs whilst focussing will appear to look through or past the sheep.  The dog with real eye will focus in a way that the sheep understand.

if I haven't made any sense,  further explanation is available! 

Alec.


----------



## Sprig (3 February 2017)

Oenoke, your girls are gorgeous. I particularly like the one on the left. Where did they come from? 

LadyCascoyne, your chap looks fab. He has such a happy looking face! Did you get him in New Zealand?


----------



## samlf (3 February 2017)

I have two BCs at the moment. They are both rescues so I can only speculate at their backgrounds, one is slightly neurotic and wired and the other is very laid back. The more laid back one I got at around 14 weeks, the other at 18 months. They have both been agility dogs (now retired), the wired one was super but the laid back one was capable but unwilling!
I don't think I'd have any other breed now, their intelligence and willingness to please are just what I wanted in a dog. In my experience they are a breed that needs a lot of direction, some more than others of course.

If you want to guarantee the personality you end up with I'd definitely go for breeder and looking at their parentage and environment, a rescue can be a bit of a gamble but well worth it if you are prepared!


----------



## Cinnamontoast (3 February 2017)

My local horse page mentioned a collie that was sick after eating horse poo. I'm wondering if it was ivermectin based wormer in the poo. Avoid dog wormers with that for collies, just a timely reminder for anyone thinking of getting a bc.


----------



## Oenoke (4 February 2017)

Sprig said:



			Oenoke, your girls are gorgeous. I particularly like the one on the left. Where did they come from?
		
Click to expand...

This is Tayen, my youngest at just 2 years old, her breeder's affix is Breurn, both her parents compete at flyball (her dad has competed at Crufts flyball the last few years for Dream Team).


----------



## Crugeran Celt (4 February 2017)

I have a welsh collie x springer, fabulous dog and so easy to train.


----------



## Sprig (6 February 2017)

Okenoke, Tayen is fabulous. I didn't have any luck googling Breurn. I don't suppose you have a link to the breeders?

Has anyone had any dealings with Aviary Border Collies in Oxfordshire?


----------



## Alec Swan (6 February 2017)

For those with an interest in working sheepdogs,  I'd suggest that this little bitch is as grand as they come!

https://www.facebook.com/BCHeartbeat/videos/568458940019760/

She could come and live with me,  tomorrow! 

Alec.


----------



## Moobli (6 February 2017)

Alec Swan said:



			For those with an interest in working sheepdogs,  I'd suggest that this little bitch is as grand as they come!

https://www.facebook.com/BCHeartbeat/videos/568458940019760/

She could come and live with me,  tomorrow! 

Alec.
		
Click to expand...

I am pretty sure we have first dibs on her   A cracking little bitch - and one that would probably not do too well in a pet home.


----------



## Clodagh (6 February 2017)

WorkingGSD said:



			I am pretty sure we have first dibs on her   A cracking little bitch - and one that would probably not do too well in a pet home.
		
Click to expand...

Alec if she was yours you would have to go and get some more sheep.


----------



## Alec Swan (6 February 2017)

Clodagh said:



			Alec if she was yours you would have to go and get some more sheep.
		
Click to expand...

Easy done,  and were she mine,  I would!  I'd probably 'get wrong',  but it wouldn't be the first time,  nor the last I don't suppose.

I had such a bitch once,  admired by half of Cumbria,  but had it been her (Lynn) being filmed,  she may well have nailed that awkward old ewe half way through!  

Alec.


----------



## Moobli (6 February 2017)

Alec Swan said:



			Easy done,  and were she mine,  I would!  I'd probably 'get wrong',  but it wouldn't be the first time,  nor the last I don't suppose.

I had such a bitch once,  admired by half of Cumbria,  but had it been her (Lynn) being filmed,  she may well have nailed that awkward old ewe half way through!  

Alec.
		
Click to expand...

Where did you farm in Cumbria Alec?


----------



## Alec Swan (6 February 2017)

I didn't,  I have friends who trial and live there and bought in pups from them.

Alec.


----------



## Moobli (6 February 2017)

Alec Swan said:



			I didn't,  I have friends who trial and live there and bought in pups from them.

Alec.
		
Click to expand...

Ah, my mistake


----------



## Alec Swan (6 February 2017)

WorkingGSD said:



			Ah, my mistake 

Click to expand...

No problem.  Atholl Clarke,  should you know him,  saw Lynn for 3 minutes,  and made offers that a fool (this one perhaps!) turned down.  She was 6 years old,  in daily work and too useful to part with.  Atholl tracked down her breeder Alan Elliot(?) in an attempt to trace her lineage,  but whether he made anything of it,  I'm not sure.  The odd thing was though that I bought two bitch pups from the litter and the other,  though a working dog,  was never Lynn.  I lived alone at the time and the dogs were with me (apart from when I was in the pub) 24-7.  I feel certain that it was the constant companionship which brought out the best in her,  rather than my abilities.

Alec.


----------



## Moobli (6 February 2017)

Alec Swan said:



			No problem.  Atholl Clarke,  should you know him,  saw Lynn for 3 minutes,  and made offers that a fool (this one perhaps!) turned down.  She was 6 years old,  in daily work and too useful to part with.  Atholl tracked down her breeder Alan Elliot(?) in an attempt to trace her lineage,  but whether he made anything of it,  I'm not sure.  The odd thing was though that I bought two bitch pups from the litter and the other,  though a working dog,  was never Lynn.  I lived alone at the time and the dogs were with me (apart from when I was in the pub) 24-7.  I feel certain that it was the constant companionship which brought out the best in her,  rather than my abilities.

Alec.
		
Click to expand...

Alan Elliot has bred some very good dogs, and Atholl Clarke (Kirkby Lonsdale?) has too - he will be getting on in years now, but is still very well thought of.

Lynn sounded a very useful bitch.  They seem to be getting harder to find.  Hubby and I have often observed that you get the best out of working dogs by having them live with you and spending work and leisure time together.


----------



## Oenoke (6 February 2017)

Sprig said:



			Okenoke, Tayen is fabulous. I didn't have any luck googling Breurn. I don't suppose you have a link to the breeders?
		
Click to expand...

http://www.breurnbordercolliesandco.co.uk/
http://www.champdogs.co.uk/breeder/26763


----------



## Sprig (6 February 2017)

Thanks Oenoke. Clearly my googling skills are terrible!


----------



## Sprig (7 February 2017)

Oenoke, I thought you might be interested that Tayen's sister is hopefully going to be having a litter later this year. They are going to get in touch with me if the mating works out. How have you found Tayen so far?


----------



## Oenoke (7 February 2017)

Sprig said:



			Oenoke, I thought you might be interested that Tayen's sister is hopefully going to be having a litter later this year. They are going to get in touch with me if the mating works out. How have you found Tayen so far?
		
Click to expand...

Yes, I knew they were planning on breeding Tayen's sister at some time.  

Tayen is a sweet little girl, she is coming along nicely with her agility and flyball training, I've just been taking it slow, hopefully she'll start competing this spring.


----------



## Sprig (8 February 2017)

Oenoke, I hope you don't mind my persistent questioning of you?! Do you know Chazak border collies in the Forest of Dean? Their dogs seem to be a lovely type.


----------



## Oenoke (8 February 2017)

Sprig said:



			Oenoke, I hope you don't mind my persistent questioning of you?! Do you know Chazak border collies in the Forest of Dean? Their dogs seem to be a lovely type.
		
Click to expand...

Sent you a private message.


----------



## debsandpets (11 February 2017)

My girl Bella is a trialling bred bitch. She was bred by a trailer, sold to another one to bring on and then we got her at 16months old after having lived in kennels etc when with the other owners. She settled straight into home life with 4 working springer spaniels. House trained pretty much within the 1st week and she works our sheep too 

I wouldn't be without her now but it is so different having a collie to any other dog - her intelligence levels are just phenomenal and she thinks that she is human not canine !!!

Can't get the photo to show grrrrrrrrrrrr !!!!!!!!


----------

