# Is there anyone on HHO who disagrees with foxhunting?



## Moomin1 (16 February 2012)

As title says!!


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## Montyforever (16 February 2012)

I disagree with hunting foxes with dogs, feel there are more humane and quicker ways to do it but agree foxes do need to be kept under control so I'm on the fence with it  can't quite make up my mind tbh !


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## Enfys (16 February 2012)

Plenty 


ps, I have to say this, everytime that I read your name I automatically add  troll to it...


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## cambrica (16 February 2012)

I cannot bear to see any animal suffer - especially at the hands of human enjoyment. If it were badger baiting there would be national outrage or some exotic big cat it would cause worldwide condemnation. There are ways of dealing with problem animals that are acceptable and ways that are simply abhorrent. I prepare to be shot down.......


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## Jenny_Sinn (16 February 2012)

Yes! 40 hounds vs 1 fox doesn't seem fair to me. It feels like a desire to maintain a tradition is getting in the way of finding a more humane method.
Not a popular opinion in the horsey world, lol.

(It also makes me cringe when I see them hammering on the road -ouch!)


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## kippen64 (16 February 2012)

In Australia, foxes are feral vermin that wreak havoc on our native fauna. My only objection to fox hunting on horses in Australia, is that it is not very efficient. I am not keen on dying but would rather die in moments at the paws of the hounds than die slowly from poison or in a trap.


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## tinap (16 February 2012)

I'm not against the actual hunting, but there is no way on earth I would let mine go blasting down the roads & jumping barbed wire fences!! I like his legs too much


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## NeilM (16 February 2012)

Ermm, I don't know if anyone has read the news lately, but hunting foxes with hounds is illegal and has been since 2005. 

Badger baiting is also illegal, still goes on, and there is NO public outcry about it. While we are at it, what about dog fighting or cock fighting, both illegal...but strangely there is silence on the subject from LACS and the other anti groups.

So, before we all start pounding on about 40 hounds against 1 fox, lets try to get our facts straight shall we?


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## mulledwhine (16 February 2012)

Hunting fixed with hounds is not illegal, it is however illegal to send more than 2 hounds in for the kill!!


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## peanut (16 February 2012)

Yes


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## Spudlet (16 February 2012)

NeilM next thing you will be expecting people to care about actual welfare issues more than pics of horses with unusual tack...


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## NeilM (16 February 2012)

Spudlet said:



			NeilM next thing you will be expecting people to care about actual welfare issues more than pics of horses with unusual tack... 

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Ahh yes, silly me


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## Welshie Squisher (16 February 2012)

I'm against in principal, to terrorise and kill and animal in the name of sport goes against the grain with me. I feel the same way towards bull fighting.

Just because the likes of bull fighting is legal doesn't in my eyes therefore make fox hunting acceptable. 2 wrongs don't make a right.

I do however think it's wrong for city folk to interfere with the lives and tradition of country folk, and that is really how the ban has come about which is wrong.


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## scrunchie (16 February 2012)

NeilM said:



			Ermm, I don't know if anyone has read the news lately, but hunting foxes with hounds is illegal and has been since 2005. 

Badger baiting is also illegal, still goes on, and there is NO public outcry about it. While we are at it, what about dog fighting or cock fighting, both illegal...but strangely there is silence on the subject from LACS and the other anti groups.

So, before we all start pounding on about 40 hounds against 1 fox, lets try to get our facts straight shall we?
		
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^This

Tbh I was always anti hunting and shooting until I lived in the countryside and realised what ***** foxes are. Now, I sit on the fence over foxhunting and have no qualms over shooting.

I'd love to have a go at hunting just for the experience but I'm not that brave. Maybe one day..!


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## Shantara (16 February 2012)

I hate it. People say foxes are over populated? I live in the middle of the country and it's such a rare occasion that I actually see one. It gives me such a thrill to see a wild fox, but when cars and hunts are killing them...No, I can't agree with that. 

One of my extremely rare sightings!
http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j308/gothic180/Fox011-1.jpg

Like Welshie said, I don't like people interfering and sabotaging hunts, that can get downright nasty.


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## Luci07 (16 February 2012)

Crickey I live in Surrey and see plenty of foxes. In fact when I lived in Fulham I STILL saw foxes...had to be careful dog walking first thing! 

Good point though... There is no such thing as fox hunting! Oddly enough I sometimes wonder if this entire mess hasn't actually helped the conception of hunting...

But if you want to get emotive can we look at some thing that is happening and being ignored? Dog fighting and dog baiting. Increasing in our so called civilised society. Now that I can get steamed up about


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## Merlin11 (16 February 2012)

i used to be against it but now i have horses i can see why people do it and i think a lot worse things happen to animals. i wouldn't do it myself and personally love to see a wild fox about - they keep the rabbits down which make big holes in my horses fields! unfortunately the farmer here regularly has the foxes shot so we are overrrun with rabbits! also don't like shooting especially if anywhere near my horses. but realise that some animal management has to take place.


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## Amymay (16 February 2012)

montyforever said:



			I disagree with hunting foxes with dogs, feel there are more humane and quicker ways to do it but agree foxes do need to be kept under control so I'm on the fence with it  can't quite make up my mind tbh !
		
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What would be a more humane and quicker method??


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## Morgan123 (16 February 2012)

amymay said:



			What would be a more humane and quicker method??
		
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Shooting them? I just don't see why hunting (with a pack of hounds) is necessary. I know people say shooting is not ideal either, whihc I'm sure is true (misfiring, etc etc), but it is still better than being chased and ripped apart.

Also - to the poeple saying it doesn't exist anymore - it may be banned, but come on - we all know it still goes on all over the place. And even the legal stuff - you can still chase the fox with the hounds, just not kill it wiht the hounds. I think the chasing is just as bad as the killing, imo.


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## cambrica (16 February 2012)

Echo Annielusion,
We are seriously overrun with rabbits, many with mxy, constantly filling in small cities of warrens and not a fox to be seen. Even the increase in Buzzards/Kites aren't having impact. Used to watch the most beautiful deep red male fox on a summers eve but he eventually got run over. 
As for dog fighting etc in our area the increase is due to the increase in a certain ethnic population that our local council seem to be powerless against.


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## forestfantasy (16 February 2012)

The reason we don't see many foxes in the countryside anymore is due to the fact that they have moved into towns & cities.
'Why bother chasing a rabbit when i can empty this wheelie bin and scavange in here? Much easier!'

The towns are where the problems lie IMO - fast food chains & supermarkets etc that are irresponsible about keeping discarded food secure - these foxes are the ones that need addressing.

I've seen 1 fox in my entire life living in the countryside but seen at least 4 trotting about outside Asda in my local town!


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## scrunchie (16 February 2012)

I wouldn't mind foxes if they ate what they killed but they don't. They cause utter carnage if they get into a henhouse. They kill for fun.

A farmer by us let his wife nag him into buying llamas to control the foxes. They're useless and he still loses lambs to foxes.


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## Shantara (16 February 2012)

forestfantasy - Very true! That's why I don't really get fox hunting. Leave them in the country where they are needed to keep down rabbit and other populations naturally and let cars deal with the fox. Goodness knows they kill enough.

The problem in the towns and cities is poisoning. Too many of my friends have lost pets through poison left for foxes and rats. You can't shoot there or having horses and hounds cantering through.


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## scrunchie (16 February 2012)

Annielusian said:



			forestfantasy - Very true! That's why I don't really get fox hunting. Leave them in the country where they are needed to keep down rabbit and other populations naturally and let cars deal with the fox. Goodness knows they kill enough.
		
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They don't just kill rabbits though do they? They kill all manner of small animals and livestock. And as I said, they kill for fun. They won't just kill one chicken, they will kill all the chickens in a coop.


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## fburton (16 February 2012)

scrunchie said:



			Tbh I was always anti hunting and shooting until I lived in the countryside and realised what ***** foxes are.
		
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Nuisances? Yes, they certainly can be!



Annielusian said:



			I hate it. People say foxes are over populated? I live in the middle of the country and it's such a rare occasion that I actually see one.
		
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Fox populations are largely self-regulating, numbers being limited by space available for territory. It doesn't really matter how many are killed each year, the population recovers within a year or two. Therefore, concerns that there would be a population explosion without culling are unwarranted. There is evidence to support this in what happened due to the temporary hunting ban that occurred during the foot-and-mouth outbreak. In any case, many more foxes are killed on the roads than by deliberate hunting/culling. Of course, it can always be argued that the natural population level (i.e. what it would stabilize at without culling) is too high and this used to justify hunting. However, I have some sympathy for _local_ fox control where particular individuals ("rogue foxes") are killing livestock.


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## ROG (16 February 2012)

Does it really take more than one good dog to follow the scent of a fox?

If one dog was used then the rest of it seems like great fun


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## fburton (16 February 2012)

scrunchie said:



			And as I said, they kill for fun.
		
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What is your evidence for saying foxes kill for fun? Isn't it just instinct? It seems to me they are no better or worse than any other non-human animal that is doing what it is naturally programmed to do.


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## forestfantasy (16 February 2012)

scrunchie said:



			They don't just kill rabbits though do they? They kill all manner of small animals and livestock. And as I said, they kill for fun. They won't just kill one chicken, they will kill all the chickens in a coop.
		
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I agree with this ^^ However would you prefer them running riot in your town?
It's up to farmers etc who have chickens to make sure they are totally secure.
We have chickens on our farm and we haven't had any issue with foxes because we know to keep them secure.


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## cambrica (16 February 2012)

No I agree they dont just kill rabbits but I live in more fear of my neighbours cat than I do a fox when it comes to my chickens, not to mention domestic cats wiping out wild bird populations but we wouldn't dream of setting the hounds on them.


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## scrunchie (16 February 2012)

fburton said:



			What is your evidence for saying foxes kill for fun? Isn't it just instinct? It seems to me they are no better or worse than any other non-human animal that is doing what it is naturally programmed to do.
		
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They just seem to do it for fun. Ok, I've got no evidence as to what a happy fox looks like but it's the fact that they will destroy and kill as many animals as a cage will hold and leave the carcasses there (not eat them) suggests that they don't kill simply because they need to.


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## Morgan123 (16 February 2012)

fburton said:



			Nuisances? Yes, they certainly can be!


Fox populations are largely self-regulating, numbers being limited by space available for territory. It doesn't really matter how many are killed each year, the population recovers within a year or two. Therefore, concerns that there would be a population explosion without culling are unwarranted. There is evidence to support this in what happened due to the temporary hunting ban that occurred during the foot-and-mouth outbreak. In any case, many more foxes are killed on the roads than by deliberate hunting/culling. Of course, it can always be argued that the natural population level (i.e. what it would stabilize at without culling) is too high and this used to justify hunting. However, I have some sympathy for _local_ fox control where particular individuals ("rogue foxes") are killing livestock.
		
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absolutely true. I always think it's interesting when you talk to pro-hunters that they use two arguments, 1) there would be too many foxes if we didn't kill them (not true for the reasons above) and 2), well it's not that cruel cos we don't kill that many anyway.

It seems that, if they're really such a MASSIVE problem to farmers, going out and shooting them would be massively more economical (you could kill several in one go, for example) than having teams of people out twice a week to kill one, if you're lucky (depending on your viewpoint!). So, they can't be that bad a problem or you'd have to do a lot more than just killing one or two a week - at most - in your area.

Secondly - fox hunting is pretty much only limited to Britain, but keeping chickens and the existence of foxes is not limited to Britain. the others seem to manage - i just don't see why it's necessary?!


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## rhino (16 February 2012)

NeilM said:



			Ermm, I don't know if anyone has read the news lately, but hunting foxes with hounds is illegal and has been since 2005.
		
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We know fox hunting is illegal. No-one had said otherwise 

But the question asked was who disagrees with fox hunting? It is still popular in other countries and may well be brought back here. I don't see how people answering the question about fox hunting in principle are wrong


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## shortstuff99 (16 February 2012)

Also as to the foxes hunting for fun, if left and not chased off they come back for the carcasses and bury them to form over wintering 'caches'. So actually they are doing what comes naturally to them, hunting while the food is plentiful, and then storing for the hard times but they are usually disturbed before this can happen.


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## Keimanp (16 February 2012)

Annielusian said:



			I hate it. People say foxes are over populated? I live in the middle of the country and it's such a rare occasion that I actually see one.
		
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I live i the middle of the country as well, and we have a fox den very close by to the house, they do cause some problems but as we don't keep poultry were ok! In the time they have been living here I have only seen a fleeting glimpse of them once. The rabbiter/rook/pidgeon man has seen them more, generally running off with his lunch!

It is likely you have foxes very close by and never know they are there.


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## Montyforever (16 February 2012)

Amymay - accurate shooting! Much better than being ripped apart by dogs


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## Keimanp (16 February 2012)

Morgan123 said:



			Shooting them? I just don't see why hunting (with a pack of hounds) is necessary. I know people say shooting is not ideal either, whihc I'm sure is true (misfiring, etc etc), but it is still better than being chased and ripped apart.
		
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Shooting them is not ideal at all and infact much worse. At home we have a sort of game keeper to keep on top of the rabbits, rooks, and pidgeons to help keep a healthy and diverse range of wildlife in the area. Even in close quarters a kill is not guarenteed and you are more likely to maime and have to continue with a second shot to kill.

Over 50m the shot from a shotgun (the gun of choice for most farmers) will be fairly dispersed and not accurate resulting in a peppering of lead shot into the fox, most likely the rear quarters as the predicted movement of the fox was incorrect.

To shoot a fox does in no way mean a quick, clean, pain free death. More often and more likely a slow, painful messy death or worse surviving to starve to death. Please don't believe it is any more humane!


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## Keimanp (16 February 2012)

fburton said:



			What is your evidence for saying foxes kill for fun? Isn't it just instinct? It seems to me they are no better or worse than any other non-human animal that is doing what it is naturally programmed to do.
		
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Does that same logic then not apply to the pack of hounds who's own natural instinct is to hunt as a pack?

At which point you then disagree with people accompanying the hunt and not the actually hunting by the hounds?


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## Morgan123 (16 February 2012)

Keimanp said:



			Shooting them is not ideal at all and infact much worse. At home we have a sort of game keeper to keep on top of the rabbits, rooks, and pidgeons to help keep a healthy and diverse range of wildlife in the area. Even in close quarters a kill is not guarenteed and you are more likely to maime and have to continue with a second shot to kill.

Over 50m the shot from a shotgun (the gun of choice for most farmers) will be fairly dispersed and not accurate resulting in a peppering of lead shot into the fox, most likely the rear quarters as the predicted movement of the fox was incorrect.

To shoot a fox does in no way mean a quick, clean, pain free death. More often and more likely a slow, painful messy death or worse surviving to starve to death. Please don't believe it is any more humane!
		
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I'm sure that's true and that it's not always accurate, etc etc - but neither is ripping a body apart with dogs - at least if you shoot them they don't have a full on panicking run of miles and miles, and also they have more of a hcance of a quick and painless death (though, agreed, there will be times when it does not work and causes a slow death whihc is obviously not ideal either).


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## TallyHo123 (16 February 2012)

Jenny_Sinn said:



			Yes! 40 hounds vs 1 fox doesn't seem fair to me. It feels like a desire to maintain a tradition is getting in the way of finding a more humane method.
Not a popular opinion in the horsey world, lol.

(It also makes me cringe when I see them hammering on the road -ouch!)
		
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I think I agree with this too! I am not 100% with my opinion on this subject.


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## Amymay (16 February 2012)

montyforever said:



			Amymay - accurate shooting!
		
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And how can you assure that a fox will be shot accurately causing immediate death, not a wounding shot causing a long painful death?


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## BBH (16 February 2012)

I don't like Fox Hunting.

I have no problem with humane destruction if there is a fox ' problem'

I can't get my head around an animal being chased down and ripped apart for sport.

Sport and death don't go in the same sentence for me.


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## sakura (16 February 2012)

I strongly disagree with fox hunting


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## ILuvCowparsely (16 February 2012)

Yes  I disagree with fox hunting always have. I think there is more humane way of keeping the numbers down .

  Running a scared animal to death to be torn by dogs is cruel and stressful to the fox.


 Where a quick bullet ends with the job done .


 Drag Hunting and Mock hunting to me are a way of having the thrill of the hunt with no fox getting hurt. IMO


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## Daddy_Long_Legs (16 February 2012)

Morgan123 said:



			Shooting them? I just don't see why hunting (with a pack of hounds) is necessary. I know people say shooting is not ideal either, whihc I'm sure is true (misfiring, etc etc), but it is still better than being chased and ripped apart.

Also - to the poeple saying it doesn't exist anymore - it may be banned, but come on - we all know it still goes on all over the place. And even the legal stuff - you can still chase the fox with the hounds, just not kill it wiht the hounds. I think the chasing is just as bad as the killing, imo.
		
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Really do you have proof that this goes on?? Or are you just going to make silly statements?


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## Ibblebibble (16 February 2012)

Annielusian said:



			forestfantasy - Very true! That's why I don't really get fox hunting. Leave them in the country where they are needed to keep down rabbit and other populations naturally and let cars deal with the fox. Goodness knows they kill enough.
		
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ahhh so it's ok for a fox to chase a rabbit and a car to knock over a fox and leave it in agony by the side of the road to endure a slow and painful death but you don't like the thought of hounds chasing a fox and it being killed quickly by the huntsman  don't think you've really thought that through
 the stress of being chased is no different for the rabbit being chased by the fox or the fox being chased by hounds, both rabbit and fox are prey animals
And as for 'leaving foxes in the country' do you honestly think we have any control over where foxy decides to live, he's a smart animal and will go where food is plentiful, be that food natural prey or waste produced by humans


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## Keimanp (16 February 2012)

Morgan123 said:



			I'm sure that's true and that it's not always accurate, etc etc - but neither is ripping a body apart with dogs - at least if you shoot them they don't have a full on panicking run of miles and miles, and also they have more of a hcance of a quick and painless death (though, agreed, there will be times when it does not work and causes a slow death whihc is obviously not ideal either).
		
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At the point at which the hounds rip a body apart the fox is already dead. It is just that this is very effective and emotive way of suggesting and implying  the fox lives through this and it is what kills the fox.

The fox is a naturally flightly animal and during the chase (which generally isn't for miles and miles) and how long it lasts may have some effect on the fox, it would be interesting to know and understand but to anthropomorphise onto the fox is wrong.

I am on in the middle ground with fox hunting in reality, I can see both the reasons for and those against, I have seen the damage a fox can do along with how cunning and elusive they can be. I don't see it as worse than any other form of control and better in some instances.


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## Morgan123 (16 February 2012)

Daddy_Long_Legs said:



			Really do you have proof that this goes on?? Or are you just going to make silly statements?
		
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I thought this was common knowledge?!?!?! I know for certain people still do in my area, because the people who hunt talk about it! I assume it's not just the area I live in, either. As one lady who still hunts said, 'if you're chasing a fox with a load of hounds, no one's exactly going to stop you actually killing it at the last second'. The chasing it is absolutely legal.

So, no silly statements - thanks


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## Amymay (16 February 2012)

The chasing it is absolutely legal.
		
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Actually it isn't.  But agree with you - of course illegal hunting goes on.


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## Morgan123 (16 February 2012)

Keimanp said:



			At the point at which the hounds rip a body apart the fox is already dead. It is just that this is very effective and emotive way of suggesting and implying  the fox lives through this and it is what kills the fox.

The fox is a naturally flightly animal and during the chase (which generally isn't for miles and miles) and how long it lasts may have some effect on the fox, it would be interesting to know and understand but to anthropomorphise onto the fox is wrong.

I am on in the middle ground with fox hunting in reality, I can see both the reasons for and those against, I have seen the damage a fox can do along with how cunning and elusive they can be. I don't see it as worse than any other form of control and better in some instances.
		
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Are you serious - 'some effect' on the fox and it's anthropomorphising to suggest that being chased by an entire pack of animals - three species of animals - is frightening and unnatural?! 

OK - so maybe at the ripping apart part it's dead (or maybe not) but that doesn't mean it's a nice way to die, especially after being chased until caught.

I'm interested too in why you think it's 'better in some instances' than other forms of control - just out of interest, why is it better/in what way?


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## Morgan123 (16 February 2012)

amymay said:



			Actually it isn't.  But agree with you - of course illegal hunting goes on.
		
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Oh did I get that bit wrong??? Isn't it legal to still chase a fox wiht the hounds but it's using the hounds to kill it that's illegal, so you are meant to have people calling off the hounds and stepping in to shoot the fox? I was told by the local hunting crew that that's how everyone gets away with still doing it. apologies if i was wrong


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## Amymay (16 February 2012)

If hounds pick up the scent of a fox, or flush one out, they must be called off immediately.  Hounds are absolutely not allowed to chase it.

The only way around it is if you have a bird of prey.


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## Black_Horse_White (16 February 2012)

I wouldn't do it myself as I couldn't watch any animal suffering. But I don't object if others want to hunt, legallily or otherwise.


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## M_G (16 February 2012)

Shamelessly pinched from my local hunt's website 
Trail hunting
Trail hunting is the hunting of an artificial scent. There is no reason why huntsman or followers should know in advance the route hounds will take when following a trail, thus closely matching hunting in its current form.

Flushing
Two hounds can be used to flush quarry from covert (which could be undergrowth or woodland). The quarry must then be shot dead as soon as possible by a competent person. 

Hound Exercising
Any number of hounds can be exercised at the same time. 

Flushing to a bird of prey
Under the Hunting Act it is legal to use any number of dogs to flush any wild mammal from cover so that a bird of prey can hunt it. 

Hunting Rats and Rabbits
Any number of dogs can be used to hunt rats and rabbits, which are specifically exempted from the terms of the Act.

Hunting of wounded Hares
Any number of dogs can be used to hunt and dispatch hares that have been shot and wounded.


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## ladyt25 (16 February 2012)

scrunchie said:



			They don't just kill rabbits though do they? They kill all manner of small animals and livestock. And as I said, they kill for fun. They won't just kill one chicken, they will kill all the chickens in a coop.
		
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See, I am not getting at you personally but so many people have this argument for why foxes should be killed and I just don't agree with it. Foxes are ANIMALS they do what comes naturally to them - I don't think they go out thinkinh "hey, let's go break in to that chicken coup and kill a few of those chickens for a bit of fun tonight". No they just see this food in front of them and their instinct is to kill prey which they do. To me that is no different than your household cat going out and killing birds/mice etc - how many do they actually eat??

Of course, like anyone else I would be upset if a fox killed any animal of mine but then that's my fault for not protecting the animal isn't it. 

I do not agree with hunting in the main but then I don't understand how anyone gets pleasure out of going out and purposefully killing an animal for 'fun' (we're the ones who do it in the name of pleasure/sport/fun, not the fox!)

They still hunt round me with a fair few people and numerous dogs - as far as I know they shoot the fox but I am not 100% sure. I despise those who send terriers down a hole to flush the fox out or indeed dig the fox out - how is that fair?

A friend of mine who is a huntsman posted a picture a year or so ago where they had dug a fox out - I think that's disgusting and told him so. How is that sporting? The fox had got to where it should have been safe but yet they dug it out and killed it. Doesn't sit right with me and I can fully understand why people are antihunt when these hunts do things like that - they do not do themselves any favours in my opinion.


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## flowerlady (16 February 2012)

Merlin11 said:



			i used to be against it but now i have horses i can see why people do it .
		
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How did it change your mind when you had a horse?


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## MagicMelon (16 February 2012)

Yes, I am totally against fox hunting.  I like this forum as its the most active, but I dont buy H&H and simply dont venture into the hunting threads.  I'm not about to discuss why I dont like it on here because most people here are naturally pro and I'm bored of the same arguements!


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## Serenity087 (16 February 2012)

Aaaaaarrrrggghhh.. where to start???

Bear baiting, badger baiting, dog fighting and cock fighting are non comparable to fox hunting.  Not ONE of those even pretends it has a purpose other than human entertainment.  Fox hunting is training for P2P horses, experience for the pony club, a learning curve for wannabe eventers, a social event for rural communities (and they need them!), a reason for farmers to maintain hedges and fences to a jumpable standard.... It's so much more than just killing for fun!

The kill itself - it's only ever one hound killing one fox.  The tearing apart bit is post mortem and even if the fox were to still be alive, it'd be so immencely quick.  A bullet lodged in your guts isn't that quick really.  There's no such thing as accurate shooting unless you're shooting targets.  Even deer stalkers often have to follow deer as they bleed out and die slowly!

Foxes don't kill for fun.  They're amazingly smart creatures who have the potential to plan ahead.  If you were out shopping and saw branded tinned beans for 10p a can, would you not stock up for all those winter nights when beans on toast is bliss?  If left undisturbed, a fox will bury every single one of those chickens it massacred the night before for the months ahead!

Foxes would self regulate if not for their hugely varied diet, and their smartness again.  With an endless supply of rubbish, discarded fast food, small rodents and berries and worms (yes, they'll eat those too!) - there is none of the natural ups and downs to control foxes like there would normally be!  Also, whatever you think, foxes are NOT the top of the food chain!! Bears and wolves, ex natives of the UK, would have killed them, and still do in the states and other countries where the three co-exist!! Ergo SOMEONE has to control them!

Dogs vs foxes is not unnatural and cannot be trained (my old gundog took on a fox and between him and the others they tore it to pieces.  Irrelevant that someone had just shot it, they went savage on it.  This included spaniels, labs and pointers!!!).  I know of a foxhound who was moved to another pack because he wouldn't stop hunting foxes! (naughty boy, not reading the law!).  They don't need to be "abused" into going hunting!

I'm nowadays not really pro or anti.  I love my foxes and there are certain individuals I hope escape the hunt.  But what I cannot stand is people getting violent and aggressive about the whole thing (yes, I'm looking at you, hunt sabs) or people spouting obvious rubbish, from both sides, because they're miseducated by the media.
What I hate the most is that some dumb butthole decided to make a law about it when it's glaringly obvious no one either cares, or knows what is involved!


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## Amymay (16 February 2012)

Fox hunting is training for P2P horses, experience for the pony club, a learning curve for wannabe eventers, a social event for rural communities (and they need them!), a reason for farmers to maintain hedges and fences to a jumpable standard.... It's so much more than just killing for fun!
		
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As a 'sport' its emergence was simply entertainment for royalty and wealthy landowners.  Everything else is secondary.


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## Shutterbug (16 February 2012)

Ibblebibble said:



			ahhh so it's ok for a fox to chase a rabbit and a car to knock over a fox and leave it in agony by the side of the road to endure a slow and painful death but you don't like the thought of hounds chasing a fox and it being killed quickly by the huntsman  don't think you've really thought that through
 the stress of being chased is no different for the rabbit being chased by the fox or the fox being chased by hounds, both rabbit and fox are prey animals

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I think most people who have an issue with hunting, have an issue with it being deemed a sporting activity - I havent seen any boy racers recently running around in cars in groups of 20 looking for foxes to run over as a method of enjoyment, and to my knowledge, foxes do not gather at a meeting points by the dozen, and take a sip of brandy before heading off cross country to find a rabbit to chase.  Cars running over foxes is accidental, same as cars running over dogs or cats, and foxes killing chickens is how they feed themselves - it might appear malicious and evil of them to kill all the chickens, however that is their instinct - they are indifferent to their prey, they kill it because that the only way they know how to survive.  We chase foxes for fun with large packs of animals - that's not natural at all - in the wild you wouldn't get 40 dogs followed by 30 people on horseback chasing one fox.

I have been hunting, post band so within the confines of the law - didn't see a single fox - had a blast on my horse and the people were lovely and the dogs were cute - thought I should try it before I decided which side of the fence I was on.  I will stick to drag hunting as I thoroughly enjoyed the riding and social aspect of it however, still do not feel comfortable with chasing an animal to its death in an unnatural way and calling it a sport.  If there was one man with a dog and a shotgun going round the countryside keeping fox numbers down, there would not be a discussion as I do believe that even us "townies" realise the impact that foxes have on country life and livestock - its not that which we have issue with - its the method by which this supposed control of fox population is delivered.  In hunting circles I have heard the comment that fox hunting is ok cause they rarely catch a fox anyway - another saying its an effective way of controlling the fox population - it has to be one or the other but I have a suspicion that fox hunting is not as effective as keeping fox numbers down as people make out. Its the tradition that people dont want to let go of, and I can understand that but things change - we no longer send small children up chimneys either but I dont see anyone harping on about that   (jk btw for anyone who is getting their knickers in a twist)


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## Enfys (16 February 2012)

Tinap555 said:



			I'm not against the actual hunting, but there is no way on earth I would let mine go blasting down the roads & jumping barbed wire fences!! I like his legs too much 

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But that would be your choice entirely, you wouldn't *need* to do those things


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## Honey08 (16 February 2012)

I hate hunting.  

I've grown up on a farm (with well fenced in hens - haven't lost any yet..)  and have worked with horses - including hunting yards in the Midlands, so I've been out with the big hunts.  I'd like to think that I'd seen both sides before I formed my opinion.

The best days hunting by far that I've had have been with good drag hunts, like the NE Cheshire.  I don't see the attraction of watching an animal get killed to make it better - always think people are a bit wierd who do.  

I've not seen many foxes get away after being shot - round us they're usually found.  Far more foxes will escape from hounds after being chased for hours by the hunt.  Foxes do not have the fittening that the horses and hounds have to prepare them for the hunt, so quite likely they die a slow death or have complications as a result - so I don't buy the "its a better quicker death" line.  Hunts catch very few foxes anyway.  Its sport and nothing else.

I've also seen too many knackered lame hunters chucked in the auctions, and had to learn a lot of hunting yard tricks when doing my AI - stockholm tarring the legs and throwing clipped horses out in early April to "rough them off quickly" and save the owners money..  In general I got  very turned off by the whole scene.


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## Enfys (16 February 2012)

Keimanp said:



			At the point at which the hounds rip a body apart the fox is already dead. It is just that this is very effective and emotive way of suggesting and implying  the fox lives through this and it is what kills the fox.
		
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^^^^ Thankyou for stating this fact.   I was wondering when someone would.

The fox will generally be despatched by the first hound to get to it. To those that think otherwise have you ever watched your pet dog shake a toy violently before trying to rip it up? 

It is merely doing what comes naturally to a predator and 'killing it' that's what happens to the fox. 

I have absolutely no problems whatsoever with people being for, against or on the fence on this, or any other subject, I just prefer that the straight facts were known.


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## touchstone (16 February 2012)

Keimanp said:



			At the point at which the hounds rip a body apart the fox is already dead.
		
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Not always, there are some pretty horrific videos on youtube and elsewhere, it isn't always a clean quick death sadly.


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## Enfys (16 February 2012)

touchstone said:



Not always, there are some pretty horrific videos on youtube and elsewhere, it isn't always a clean quick death sadly.
		
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No, not always as you say, nothing is set in stone.

I think though, that if we look long and hard enough on the internet (You Tube in particular) we can always find something to support our views/arguments, whether that is the norm or not. 

PETA and SHARK are *experts* at posting clips showing exactly what they want them to, cannily missing out events or situations leading up to that moment. Take the famous Potters clip of a grey pony being shot, you saw the rifle being put to his head and bang! What you *didn't* see in their propaganda clip was the man calmly leading the pony through and reassuring it first...they cut that bit out as it didn't suit their purposes.


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## ChesnutsRoasting (16 February 2012)

A really good site for those wishing to learn about fox behaviour. In particular the answer to the question "Why do foxes kill for pleasure?" and "Will foxes eat my rabbit/guinea pig?".  http://www.thefoxwebsite.org/faq/urbanfoxproblems.html#q8


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## fburton (16 February 2012)

Keimanp said:



			Does that same logic then not apply to the pack of hounds who's own natural instinct is to hunt as a pack?

At which point you then disagree with people accompanying the hunt and not the actually hunting by the hounds?
		
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Yes, hounds are just following there instincts too, with some guidance from us. The difference is that foxes have no choice in doing what they do whereas we choose/chose whether or not to deploy the hounds in pursuit of the fox. I might disagree with that choice, but having made the choice it wouldn't make sense to disapprove of what the hounds do.


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## foxy1 (16 February 2012)

Far more foxes were killed by cars than hunting (when hunting was legal). Not such great pest control after all.


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## Keimanp (16 February 2012)

Morgan123 said:



			Are you serious - 'some effect' on the fox and it's anthropomorphising to suggest that being chased by an entire pack of animals - three species of animals - is frightening and unnatural?! 

OK - so maybe at the ripping apart part it's dead (or maybe not) but that doesn't mean it's a nice way to die, especially after being chased until caught.

I'm interested too in why you think it's 'better in some instances' than other forms of control - just out of interest, why is it better/in what way?
		
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Yes some effect, I am not saying that the fox will be uneffected by being chased or serverly effected, but I nor anyone else on this forum can catagorically say what effect it has on the fox and to what degree. It is likely that in most instances that the effect on the fox will not be as traumatic as people and the media make out thanks to the effect of adrenaline. Should the fox evade a pack of hounds, which they do quite frequently then they are very likely to see no ill effects from the chase, thanks to the natural evolved ability of being a prey animal.

It is a better form of control in terms that the chase of the fox utilises the natural instincts of the fox, 'to flee'. In reality 'The chase' does not last all that long and when the first hound reaches the fox death is fairly quick. So from the initial chase to the kill you are looking at 15 minutes. (The whole duration of the hunt is probably 6 hours. A fox is not kept in a box and released just before the hounds and the whole 6 hours are spent chasing it. The majority of the time is spent on the hunt for the quarry)

Alternatives being Poison or gun. No poison you put down will kill a fox in less than an hour, death is longer, slower and more drawn out probably closer to the 24-48 hour mark. I would imagine poisoning has the same effect as being ill slowly deteriorating.

Most farmers who are the most likely person to shoot a fox are not trained marksmen, they use shot guns, and if you watch on a shoot you typically get a wall of 10 people with shot guns aiming at 1 bird. Everyone doesn't hit the bird and on occasion it gets away. The chances are that the fox will get maimed and will slope off into the undergrowth or its den and either slowly bleed to death or deteriorate due to healing but then not being able to hunt due to injuries sustained. Could be instant, likely to be longer, 15 mins to up to a week or so.

The best and cleanest method would be to employ trained marksmen but this is neither practical or affordable. So out of the realistic options it is a better option.


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## fburton (16 February 2012)

Ibblebibble said:



			ahhh so it's ok for a fox to chase a rabbit and a car to knock over a fox and leave it in agony by the side of the road to endure a slow and painful death but you don't like the thought of hounds chasing a fox and it being killed quickly by the huntsman  don't think you've really thought that through

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Cost-benefit analysis... Killing foxes accidentally on the roads is unavoidable - unless we ban motoring or find a way of stopping foxes getting onto the roads - neither of which seems very feasible at the moment! On the other hand, killing foxes deliberately is avoidable. My personal view is that it should not be done needlessly (i.e. _just_ for sport), and that _if_ there is a good reason to have certain foxes killed - as there may well be - that it should be done as humanely _as practically possible_, whether that means shooting them by marksmen (to maximize the chances of a clean kill) or - horrors! - with hounds.




			the stress of being chased is no different for the rabbit being chased by the fox or the fox being chased by hounds, both rabbit and fox are prey animals

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Except that one occurs without our intervention, while the other takes a conscious decision on our part. Does that matter? We could deliberately engineer all kinds of meetings between animals that resulted in stress, and although the chasing and killing that occurred could arguably be described as 'natural', it wouldn't automatically make it okay to do so.


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## Keimanp (16 February 2012)

amymay said:



			As a 'sport' its emergence was simply entertainment for royalty and wealthy landowners.  Everything else is secondary.
		
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I disagree, As a sport its emergence was through royalty and wealthy landowners wanting to control foxes and protect their livestock. In times past chicken wire, pens and huts didn't exist in the forms they do today. Entertainment from the sport came secondary.

Do we really live in a society where it is acceptable to disagree with something and use class as an arguement?


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## Amymay (16 February 2012)

Keimanp said:



			Do we really live in a society where it is acceptable to disagree with something and use class as an argument?
		
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Oh, it's not my intention to use class as an argument at all, just wanted to correct Serenity's post.


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## Wheels (16 February 2012)

It is still legal here in every part of the island of ireland. Personally i don't partake as i think shooting with a rifle is a better way of dealing with over populated areas.

There are a few owners of high powered rifles in my area who shoot foxes on behalf of farmers which seems to work well


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## Keimanp (16 February 2012)

Hevs said:



			... its the method by which this supposed control of fox population is delivered...... Its the tradition that people dont want to let go of, and I can understand that but things change - we no longer send small children up chimneys either but I dont see anyone harping on about that   (jk btw for anyone who is getting their knickers in a twist)
		
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Alot of how the control of the fox population is delivered is now sensationalised media spin and not accurate. This is unfortunate and does not enable effective informative and accurate debate.

I think a lot of it is tradition that people don't want to let go of and that is not a bad thing. I also think that the fox numbers caught are 'man'ed up' to make them look a lot better than they are.

But as for small children up chimneys I could do with a couple cleaning if you know of any available? chimneys, not children that is!


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## Keimanp (16 February 2012)

amymay said:



			Oh, it's not my intention to use class as an argument at all, just wanted to correct Serenity's post.
		
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Sorry, I didn't mean to suggest you were, I have been reading quickly and saw it and it triggered a thought and I saw it another way which is easily done with this topic as it does use class as an arguement on occassion which I disagree with. I was more meaning it as an open question as class has been touched on a couple of times through the thread..


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## fburton (16 February 2012)

Serenity087 - First let me say that I agree with a lot of what you wrote - e.g. that fox hunting can't be compared directly with baiting and fighting, that the effectiveness of hunting with hounds versus shooting is not as clear cut as some may believe. I also share your distaste of violent action and of the political process that brought about the ban.

However, I'm not sure about this part...



Serenity087 said:



			Foxes would self regulate if not for their hugely varied diet, and their smartness again.  With an endless supply of rubbish, discarded fast food, small rodents and berries and worms (yes, they'll eat those too!) - there is none of the natural ups and downs to control foxes like there would normally be!  Also, whatever you think, foxes are NOT the top of the food chain!! Bears and wolves, ex natives of the UK, would have killed them, and still do in the states and other countries where the three co-exist!! Ergo SOMEONE has to control them!
		
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In the countryside, foxes are largely self-regulating because space for territories hardly changes and food supply remains as limited/abundant as it always was (assuming domestic animals stay effectively protected). If they weren't killed, their numbers _wouldn't_ keep rising - there would be nothing like the population explosion that some people say would happen. The UK fox population would stay pretty much as it is now overall, with some local variations in numbers. Even if road deaths, which contribute _far_ more to mortality than hunting, were eliminated the numbers _still_ wouldn't increase by very much. So it really isn't true to say that their numbers need to be controlled overall - although there may be arguments for local control, especially if particular individuals are causing a problem. This may be the case in cities, where numbers have increased in recent years where I live (in Glasgow). Whether or not urban fox numbers warrant culling measures is not something I have a particular view on.

Edited to add: when I say "always was", I mean in the last century or so, not prehistoric timescales - because man has certainly shaped the landscape and that has had an effect on habitats.


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## Oberon (16 February 2012)

I read this as a child in a horsey magazine and still remember it by heart;

"Mama," said the cub to the vixen,
"pray what is the meaning of life?
Why do we live in this hole in the ground,
afraid to go out in daylight?"

"My son," said the vixen (most proudly)
"One thing I have always been taught.
We were put on this Earth with the purpose
of providing the Huntsman with sport."

"Some humans will die from consumption.
And others (more lucky) from gin.
But for you we will make the assumption,
that you'll end up torn limb from limb."

"But remember, my son, at your life's end
is something of which you'll be proud.
For your death will provide entertainment
for some of the Great Hunting Crowd."


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## Goldenstar (16 February 2012)

The majority of this post is pointless as fox hunting has been banned for some time.


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## SplashofSoy (16 February 2012)

Serenity087 said:



			Aaaaaarrrrggghhh.. where to start???

Bear baiting, badger baiting, dog fighting and cock fighting are non comparable to fox hunting.  Not ONE of those even pretends it has a purpose other than human entertainment.  Fox hunting is training for P2P horses, experience for the pony club, a learning curve for wannabe eventers, a social event for rural communities (and they need them!), a reason for farmers to maintain hedges and fences to a jumpable standard.... It's so much more than just killing for fun!

The kill itself - it's only ever one hound killing one fox.  The tearing apart bit is post mortem and even if the fox were to still be alive, it'd be so immencely quick.  A bullet lodged in your guts isn't that quick really.  There's no such thing as accurate shooting unless you're shooting targets.  Even deer stalkers often have to follow deer as they bleed out and die slowly!

Foxes don't kill for fun.  They're amazingly smart creatures who have the potential to plan ahead.  If you were out shopping and saw branded tinned beans for 10p a can, would you not stock up for all those winter nights when beans on toast is bliss?  If left undisturbed, a fox will bury every single one of those chickens it massacred the night before for the months ahead!

Foxes would self regulate if not for their hugely varied diet, and their smartness again.  With an endless supply of rubbish, discarded fast food, small rodents and berries and worms (yes, they'll eat those too!) - there is none of the natural ups and downs to control foxes like there would normally be!  Also, whatever you think, foxes are NOT the top of the food chain!! Bears and wolves, ex natives of the UK, would have killed them, and still do in the states and other countries where the three co-exist!! Ergo SOMEONE has to control them!

Dogs vs foxes is not unnatural and cannot be trained (my old gundog took on a fox and between him and the others they tore it to pieces.  Irrelevant that someone had just shot it, they went savage on it.  This included spaniels, labs and pointers!!!).  I know of a foxhound who was moved to another pack because he wouldn't stop hunting foxes! (naughty boy, not reading the law!).  They don't need to be "abused" into going hunting!

I'm nowadays not really pro or anti.  I love my foxes and there are certain individuals I hope escape the hunt.  But what I cannot stand is people getting violent and aggressive about the whole thing (yes, I'm looking at you, hunt sabs) or people spouting obvious rubbish, from both sides, because they're miseducated by the media.
What I hate the most is that some dumb butthole decided to make a law about it when it's glaringly obvious no one either cares, or knows what is involved!
		
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Agreed! 

If speak to people who are knowledgable about hunting (often small farmers hunts where followers are knowledgable and see the huntsman working rather than part of a huge pack busy jumping to notice whats actually happening) the respect for their quarry (pre ban) and knowledge of its habits and life are huge, far more than alot of people on here.  The incorrect facts and lack of knowledge always astounds me for people who profess thier beliefs so strongly on both sides of the debate.

I happen to be pro hunting but then i am not a vegetarian, would be in faovur of a badger cull and am quite happy if my terrier catches a bunny rabbit whilst out on a walk!  Buts thats a whole different debate.  I would rather see a controlled strong healthy fox population rather than the large numbers mangy poor specimins so often seen today.


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## rhino (16 February 2012)

Goldenstar said:



			The majority of this post is pointless as fox hunting has been banned for some time.
		
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Why? It happened in the fairly recent past, and may be brought back in the future. It still happens in other countries (Remember HHO is not just for British posters). If it were pointless why would it have had so many replies... Or shouldn't we be allowed to talk about anything that isn't happening right at the present moment? 

You may not find it interesting (although obviously interesting enough to post on it) but please don't presume for anyone else


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## Morgan123 (16 February 2012)

Keimanp said:



			Yes some effect, I am not saying that the fox will be uneffected by being chased or serverly effected, but I nor anyone else on this forum can catagorically say what effect it has on the fox and to what degree. It is likely that in most instances that the effect on the fox will not be as traumatic as people and the media make out thanks to the effect of adrenaline. Should the fox evade a pack of hounds, which they do quite frequently then they are very likely to see no ill effects from the chase, thanks to the natural evolved ability of being a prey animal.

It is a better form of control in terms that the chase of the fox utilises the natural instincts of the fox, 'to flee'. In reality 'The chase' does not last all that long and when the first hound reaches the fox death is fairly quick. So from the initial chase to the kill you are looking at 15 minutes. (The whole duration of the hunt is probably 6 hours. A fox is not kept in a box and released just before the hounds and the whole 6 hours are spent chasing it. The majority of the time is spent on the hunt for the quarry)

Alternatives being Poison or gun. No poison you put down will kill a fox in less than an hour, death is longer, slower and more drawn out probably closer to the 24-48 hour mark. I would imagine poisoning has the same effect as being ill slowly deteriorating.

Most farmers who are the most likely person to shoot a fox are not trained marksmen, they use shot guns, and if you watch on a shoot you typically get a wall of 10 people with shot guns aiming at 1 bird. Everyone doesn't hit the bird and on occasion it gets away. The chances are that the fox will get maimed and will slope off into the undergrowth or its den and either slowly bleed to death or deteriorate due to healing but then not being able to hunt due to injuries sustained. Could be instant, likely to be longer, 15 mins to up to a week or so.

The best and cleanest method would be to employ trained marksmen but this is neither practical or affordable. So out of the realistic options it is a better option.
		
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I think you'll find that fear, panic and terror are all part of the fleeing response - including adrenaline - which we see in all animals who are under direct pressure and about to be eaten...So we feel fear, panic, and terror - but anyone who's around animals can clearly see that they feel it too (take horses, for exmaple, on seeing  aplastic bag in the wind ). Technically that's anthropomorphisising (sp!!!) but you can't possibly argue that a fox does not feel terrified when it's being chased by a pack of hounds?! Surely??

Secondly - you mention practicality and affordability. When you think about it, it's not very practical either to kill one fox with an entire pack of hounds, a team of people, and a whole following of others on horseback. The only reason that's affordable at all is because people will pay to do it. So I don't think practicality of training people to shoot really comes into it, if we're looking at this overall?


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## Morgan123 (16 February 2012)

rhino said:



			Why? It happened in the fairly recent past, and may be brought back in the future. It still happens in other countries (Remember HHO is not just for British posters). If it were pointless why would it have had so many replies... Or shouldn't we be allowed to talk about anything that isn't happening right at the present moment? 

You may not find it interesting (although obviously interesting enough to post on it) but please don't presume for anyone else 

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Hunting still goes on - we talked about this a few pages ago. Lots of people still hunt illegally (and it's still an interesting debate, of course, even if they didn't !)


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## wildflower (16 February 2012)

We are surrounded by farms, live on a farm ourselves and most of my friends are working farmers.Working amongst animals and livestock pests such as foxes are shown short shrift.Same as rats in the feed bins and rabbits in the fields.Livestock needs protection and pest control is a necessary , we,ve been plagued this year by recurrent fox attacks as have all our immeadiate  neighbours.Shooting is an ideal choice and I would,nt have any qualms if hunting was brought back .Has no one who has posted so far any experience of a fox attack on their livestock or chickens??..we have lost chickens and ducks during the day as they free range .


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## Saucisson (16 February 2012)

Hmmmmmmm, I straddle the fence.

I was raised in fox-hunting country by &#8220;city&#8221; parents from very poor backgrounds who had come through the post-war education system and &#8220;done good&#8221;.

As so often happens, daughter of &#8220;done good&#8221; parents who moved out of the city, I wanted to ride horses and after much nagging, finally succeeded.  At this time my late beloved Father was taking me to see Michael Foot speaking and I was reading &#8220;The Ragged Trousered Philanthropists&#8221;.

I was given the offer to hunt aged 15 on a super arab eventer I was riding.  I was in a quandary, my parents despised the &#8220;toff&#8221; attitude of hunts and meets were on a Tuesday (hello! School day!).  I didn&#8217;t go. 

I never felt comfortable with killing something and was also never comfortable with my non-horsey background.  A &#8220;riding school kid&#8221;.  A hunting lass at school (few years older) always said they never caught anything anyway and just enjoyed the jolly.

Fast forward a few years and after uni I got a (temp) job at a very well-known hunt as a stable girl (Dad had died, Mum not happy with my choice but went along with it).  

I was absolutely ostracised by the other horse folk (NOT the houndsmen though who were a right ole laugh) because I&#8217;d been to uni and was a &#8220;riding school kid&#8221;.  This experience turned me very anti-hunting for a fair few years.  The attitude to the horses &#8220;well we loose a few every year through broken legs because the people who can pay can&#8217;t ride&#8221; (ie Mr Bread Millionaire) and the general pre-war attitude (the master would ignore me but greet his horse as I groomed him).

Now, the &#8220;riding school kid&#8221; is still going strong.  I finally bought my own horse 2 years ago.  I worked away and worked some time in the Middle East to be able to pay for him.  He&#8217;s, a cracking little horse who I&#8217;d love to hunt as it would be great for his confidence.  I had the offer again 2 years ago here in Belgium (drag hunt) but he was to young and silly to take it up.  

Now?  I&#8217;m still stuck on that fence.  I&#8217;d have more respect and support for the hunting community if like the girl at school, they admitted they just love the jolly and they hardly ever catch anything anyway&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;..


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## Bernster (16 February 2012)

"Id have more respect and support for the hunting community if they admitted they just love the jolly and they hardly ever catch anything anyway.. "

Hmmm, yup, that'd be me


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## Keimanp (16 February 2012)

Morgan123 said:



			I think you'll find that fear, panic and terror are all part of the fleeing response - including adrenaline - which we see in all animals who are under direct pressure and about to be eaten...So we feel fear, panic, and terror - but anyone who's around animals can clearly see that they feel it too (take horses, for exmaple, on seeing  aplastic bag in the wind ). Technically that's anthropomorphisising (sp!!!) but you can't possibly argue that a fox does not feel terrified when it's being chased by a pack of hounds?! Surely??
		
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I haven't said that the fox does not feel fear when it is being chased. The degree to which the fox feels this fear is however questionable. The production of adrenaline and its natural responses kick in to aid in it getting out of the situation. It does not matter whether or not it is 1 pair of hounds or 100 hundred the same flight response will be instigated. It could be a group of hikers who set the fox off, or a metal bin lid falling from when it is raiding a bin. On a regular basis it is probable that it feels fear and reacts accordingly. The length of the actual chase is not as long as is made out. The most amount of time is spent picking up the trail.



Morgan123 said:



			Secondly - you mention practicality and affordability. When you think about it, it's not very practical either to kill one fox with an entire pack of hounds, a team of people, and a whole following of others on horseback. The only reason that's affordable at all is because people will pay to do it. So I don't think practicality of training people to shoot really comes into it, if we're looking at this overall?
		
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Hunting with hounds may not be that practical, but it is very affordable as those in attendance fund the event. Shooting a fox is not that practical especially when you consider all the legislation around owning and using a firearm along with the probability of a kill shot. but then who pays to train people to shoot? Who foots that bill? Who funds the shot cost? Is it as affordable?

So out of the two options when considering cost and practicality, neither are that practical and one is self funding the other costly.


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## marmalade76 (16 February 2012)

Bernster said:



			"I&#8217;d have more respect and support for the hunting community if they admitted they just love the jolly and they hardly ever catch anything anyway&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;.. "

Hmmm, yup, that'd be me 

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And me.

But some would say that the correct answer is 'to watch hounds work' as just going out for a jolly is frowned upon by the serious hunter.


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## Quantock-cob (16 February 2012)

Don't agree with foxhunting, which happens twice a week in my area - so def not banned here! Really don't think they care about the supposed ban.

We also have stag hunting here - which is really disgusting. And if you think fox hunters are reckless with their horses...I have seen some dreadful riding from the stag hounds. I would NEVER put my horse though that


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## Shantara (16 February 2012)

Ibblebibble said:



			ahhh so it's ok for a fox to chase a rabbit and a car to knock over a fox and leave it in agony by the side of the road to endure a slow and painful death but you don't like the thought of hounds chasing a fox and it being killed quickly by the huntsman  don't think you've really thought that through
 the stress of being chased is no different for the rabbit being chased by the fox or the fox being chased by hounds, both rabbit and fox are prey animals
And as for 'leaving foxes in the country' do you honestly think we have any control over where foxy decides to live, he's a smart animal and will go where food is plentiful, be that food natural prey or waste produced by humans

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Foxes aren't pray animals, hounds chase them because they have the scent, you could train them to hunt anything and they would. The stress would be no different, but the need to cause that stress is entirely different. We won't die if we don't chase a fox, but a fox WILL die if it doesn't chase a rabbit, or whatever else it finds. Foxes NEED to hunt to live, if they aren't smart enough to move to a town and raid bins.
I don't like road kill, it always gives me a sick feeling, but there's nothing that can be done about that, unless everyone's going to give up driving...yea, I can see that happening! It does control a large amount of the fox population though. I often see dead ones and very very very rarely see live foxes.
I think you've got my point entirely wrong. I said leave the ones in the country...as in, don't kill them, not tell them where to go!


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## JFTDWS (16 February 2012)

Well, I am an expert in how foxes feel and think, having read Fantastic Mister Fox many times as a child.  As I recall, being chased by Mr Farmer and his shotgun was a jolly good wheeze and Mr F. Fox was always having a jolly good time outwitting him and so on.  If Mr Farmer didn't try to have his revenge on Mr F Fox, it would be a very boring life for both Messrs Fox and Farmer and a very boring story 

I'm looking forward to taking Fergs hunting.  Provided he doesn't kill me


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## Abz88 (16 February 2012)

NeilM said:



			Ermm, I don't know if anyone has read the news lately, but hunting foxes with hounds is illegal and has been since 2005. 

Badger baiting is also illegal, still goes on, and there is NO public outcry about it. While we are at it, what about dog fighting or cock fighting, both illegal...but strangely there is silence on the subject from LACS and the other anti groups.

So, before we all start pounding on about 40 hounds against 1 fox, lets try to get our facts straight shall we?
		
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I agree, all these are illegal, but it does not make illegal fox hunting any less criminal or barbaric than any of the others listed. 

I do not understand the mentality of those who hunt with dogs on horse back, never have, probably never will. Shoot to kill a fox, fine, its quick and if it has to be done, thats the way. Rather than chasing it for miles until it collapses out of exhastion then gets ripped apart alive by some dogs while the riders watch on and see it as a successful hunt,...seems a very old fashioned and stuck in a backwards view way of thinking. I am amazed these people don't have salves in cages in their back gardens along with the dogs. But, away from the killing of the fox itself, lets look at other things, like how many pet cats are ripped apart by dogs by mistake during hunts? A huge amount, so any cats fans, sorry,....but it might be eaten! The hunt dogs are distroyed once they get to a slow age, usualy the age of about 6 years old (a prime age of a pet dog) because they cant keep up with the pack as well as the 2 year olds. Destroying not only fox's and cats, but their own healthy and relitavly young dogs because they have little use (throw away culture). Also, horses working hard on the roads,...I dread to think of their poor legs and the minor fractures they will all probably have. So, it is a selfish and sick sport, and illegal. More should be done to stop this vile 'sport' carrying on.


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## Mrs B (16 February 2012)

Goldenstar said:



			The majority of this post is pointless as fox hunting has been banned for some time.
		
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More's the pity.


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## Countrychic (16 February 2012)

What I don't understand is most people that are pro hunting are also pro shooting. When asked why they should be allowed to hunt foxes they say because shooting is an inhumane way of keeping the population down but then go out and shoot other animals. Seems a totally stupid argument to me.

It can't be about keeping the population down really because it just isn't an economical way of doing it. It would be way cheaper to just shoot them, yes it might not be 100% effective but I really can't see that that a farmer that has lost his stock to a fox wouldn't just go and pick up a gun rather than waiting for the local hunt to maybe catch the fox?

I think it is a blood sport and therefore should not be allowed in a civilised society. Sometimes I hear my friends outraged at issues like bull fighting and the yearly torture of a donkey being chased through the streets in Spain and yet I know they hunt. To me taking pleasure in the death of another purely for sport is abhorrent. 
In my opinion we can't choose what is acceptable and what isn't with regards to another species natural behaviour. Foxes hunt, so do lots of other animals and we don't send a whole herd of people dressed up to the nines on horseback charging round the countryside after them.
The farmer next to me went through a phase of loosing his chickens so he shot the fox. I didn't have a problem with this. It was affecting his business and it wasn't done for something to pass the time. He was protecting his own animals.

If most of the foxes have moved in to the cities I'm presuming we won't be starting to hunt in the cities? Perhaps shooting them will be ok then?

Finally I may be wrong but weren't foxes introduced to the isle of Wight for the sole purpose of hunting?


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## NeilM (16 February 2012)

Countrychic said:



			we don't send a whole herd of people dressed up to the nines on horseback
		
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And this I believe is the REAL reason why so many people object to hunting and it certainly is the real reason why _hunting_ (as in killing a fox) with a pack of hounds is now illegal.


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## cyberhorse (16 February 2012)

Foxhunting is banned and I support this despite living in the countryside all my life and being a chicken/duck keeper - I do know the damage they can do (not just about getting a meal). Lamping, as is carried out round these parts, is less objectionable to me and I can see why this is deemed necessary by some. The marksmen I am aware of are excellent shots and the end is very quick and does not involve the same degree of drawn out torture. I would however object to it during breeding season as there would then be a set of cubs to slowly starve to death. As many have stated earlier I can see both sides of the argument so take a compromise position on the fence.


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## marmalade76 (16 February 2012)

NeilM said:



			And this I believe is the REAL reason why so many people object to hunting and it certainly is the real reason why _hunting_ (as in killing a fox) with a pack of hounds is now illegal.
		
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Totally agree, and this is absolutely why it is perfectly legal to hunt rabbits and rats with dogs and not foxes, hares or deer.


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## Mike007 (16 February 2012)

Countrychic said:



			What I don't understand is most people that are pro hunting are also pro shooting. When asked why they should be allowed to hunt foxes they say because shooting is an inhumane way of keeping the population down but then go out and shoot other animals. Seems a totally stupid argument to me.

It can't be about keeping the population down really because it just isn't an economical way of doing it. It would be way cheaper to just shoot them, yes it might not be 100% effective but I really can't see that that a farmer that has lost his stock to a fox wouldn't just go and pick up a gun rather than waiting for the local hunt to maybe catch the fox?

I think it is a blood sport and therefore should not be allowed in a civilised society. Sometimes I hear my friends outraged at issues like bull fighting and the yearly torture of a donkey being chased through the streets in Spain and yet I know they hunt. To me taking pleasure in the death of another purely for sport is abhorrent. 
In my opinion we can't choose what is acceptable and what isn't with regards to another species natural behaviour. Foxes hunt, so do lots of other animals and we don't send a whole herd of people dressed up to the nines on horseback charging round the countryside after them.
The farmer next to me went through a phase of loosing his chickens so he shot the fox. I didn't have a problem with this. It was affecting his business and it wasn't done for something to pass the time. He was protecting his own animals.

If most of the foxes have moved in to the cities I'm presuming we won't be starting to hunt in the cities? Perhaps shooting them will be ok then?

Finally I may be wrong but weren't foxes introduced to the isle of Wight for the sole purpose of hunting?
		
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I have never seen a fox wounded by hounds,but I have seen plenty of foxes with gunshot wounds put out of their misery by hounds.


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## Countrychic (16 February 2012)

I think the reason it is banned is because we are a civilised society. We are gradually reducing the amount of suffering other species have to endure to provide a few "animal lovers" with a bit of sport. Especially when they aren't even brave enough to admit they get their fun watching an animal being chased then killed, they have to invent a load of laughable reasons


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## Countrychic (16 February 2012)

Mike007 said:



			I have never seen a fox wounded by hounds,but I have seen plenty of foxes with gunshot wounds put out of their misery by hounds.
		
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I don't really see how that relates to what I wrote at all? Are you saying you hunt to save the foxes from having to be shot?


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## JFTDWS (16 February 2012)

Countrychic said:



			I think the reason it is banned is because we are a civilised society.
		
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Good god.  I mean, you're welcome to believe what you like about the ethics of foxhunting, but if you genuinely believe we live in a civilised society, I think you should seek psychological help


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## Shilasdair (16 February 2012)

To answer the title question:
No, there is no one on HHO who disagrees with foxhunting.
S


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## Marydoll (16 February 2012)

shortstuff99 said:



			Also as to the foxes hunting for fun, if left and not chased off they come back for the carcasses and bury them to form over wintering 'caches'. So actually they are doing what comes naturally to them, hunting while the food is plentiful, and then storing for the hard times but they are usually disturbed before this can happen.
		
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Sadly, for fun or instinct, the end result is the same for the poor owner of the dead hens, geese, rabbits, cats etc.
A fox devastated my friends hens, although they were in at night, the fox broke into the hen run and killed the lot, as well as her rooster and a goose.
I am all for shooting them, after seeing that carnage, with not one corpse taken.
I dont like the thought of them being hunted by a pack of dogs, but do see the need to control their population by marksmen.


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## marmalade76 (16 February 2012)

Countrychic said:



			I think the reason it is banned is because we are a civilised society.
		
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Yeah, the same civilised society that allows halal slaughter.


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## JFTDWS (16 February 2012)

marmalade76 said:



			Yeah, the same civilised society that allows halal slaughter.
		
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halal slaughter AND jeremy kyle


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## Countrychic (16 February 2012)

JFTD said:



			halal slaughter AND jeremy kyle 

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Fair point


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## marmalade76 (16 February 2012)

JFTD said:



			halal slaughter AND jeremy kyle 

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Would it be un-PC to hunt and kill chavs with a pack of hounds? Would save the Gov a fortune...


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## JFTDWS (16 February 2012)

marmalade76 said:



			Would it be un-PC to hunt andf kill chavs with a pack of hounds? Would save the Gov a fortune...
		
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I've often considered it as an excellent solution to many of the country's problems


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## The-mad-cat-lady (16 February 2012)

Hate it..its barbaric
Would much rather go seal clubbing..much more fun


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## Keimanp (16 February 2012)

marmalade76 said:



			Yeah, the same civilised society that allows halal slaughter.
		
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I think part of the problem also comes from how far people are distanced from meat production. It doesn't look fluffy or cute in the supermarket shelves and when people see a whole rabbit in the butchers or in a supermaket the looks of disgust and comments along the lines of 'I don't know how anyone can eat that'

Those that are exposed to the killing of animals however fluffy, cute or ugly for food etc seem to find hunting a lot easier to accept. Humans must be by far the largest consumer of meat, but so few people are involved in its production.


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## bryngelenponies (16 February 2012)

Yup


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## Mike007 (16 February 2012)

Countrychic said:



			I don't really see how that relates to what I wrote at all? Are you saying you hunt to save the foxes from having to be shot?
		
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No ,I suppose you dont see how it relates to what you wrote.                           " What I don't understand is most people that are pro hunting are also pro shooting. When asked why they should be allowed to hunt foxes they say because shooting is an inhumane way of keeping the population down but then go out and shoot other animals. Seems a totally stupid argument to me"


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## Countrychic (16 February 2012)

I'm a vegetarian. But would consider hunting chavs


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## muff747 (16 February 2012)

I case anyone has forgotten, OP was asking if anyone on here disagrees with fox hunting - not whether it is justified - or whether you agree with it.

I am against it, I think it is barbaric to call it a sport or even use it as an excuse for an enjoyable day's ride, ending in tearing an animal into pieces.
I agree we are supposed to be civilised, hunting is not civilised and even some areas of Spain are now banning bull figthing at last.
I also cannot understand how halal killing is allowed in this country, whether it is to do with religeon or not. We don't sacrifice animals to our god any more because we are civilised.
I think people who hunt are arrogant because they are openly trying to flaut the law or conniving to get around the law banning it.
Anyone who agrees with hunting should just stick to posting on the hunting forum.  I disagree with hunting so I keep off the hunting forum.


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## shortstuff99 (16 February 2012)

A good solution would be to build completely fox proof fences/ houses etc. A good parallel is in Africa the farmers have problems with big cats breaking into pens and killing livestock. Their solution is to kill the lions etc as they see them as pests, if they do this most people find this horrific. So the solution was to make sure the cats could not get to the livestock in the first place. So could we not do this in England? Just make sure that our livestock are safe?


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## Shutterbug (16 February 2012)

Countrychic said:



			I'm a vegetarian. But would consider hunting chavs
		
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I hear its brilliant fun

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N9_YhKbrhnY


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## JFTDWS (16 February 2012)

muff747 said:



			Anyone who agrees with hunting should just stick to posting on the hunting forum.  I disagree with hunting so I keep off the hunting forum.
		
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Charming.  What about eventers who hunt to keep fitness over winter?  Shoudl they be banned from CR?  Do hunting folk know nothing of stable management and have nothing to contribute to stable yard?  And no experience of veterinary complaints so they'd be no use in the Vet forum either...  And certainly no need for them to post in the general forum, because they hunt so they should stick to the Hunting section 

Get over yourself.  It's a forum, people are entitled to express their opinions in any section they desire, provided they do so in a manner which does not breach the Ts and Cs.  Just because you don't agree with them doesn't mean they should be fenced into another forum


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## marmalade76 (16 February 2012)

Hevs said:



			I hear its brilliant fun

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N9_YhKbrhnY

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Excellent!

And that /\ /\ is also an excellent post, JFTD.


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## JFTDWS (16 February 2012)

marmalade76 said:



			Excellent!

And that /\ /\ is also an excellent post, JFTD.
		
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The irony being, I've never hunted in my life


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## Holly Hocks (16 February 2012)

Countrychic said:



			I'm a vegetarian. But would consider hunting chavs
		
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I agree!!

Anyone who states that they enjoy hunting because of the riding can do the same with a drag hunt - although I hear the jumps are often bigger.

And those who state that the bullet isn't always quicker.......it's quicker than being chased to the point of exhaustion before the fox has to accept it's fate.
Round my way, they go out lamping for foxes at night -quicker, no stress to the fox prior to being killed (unlike hunting) and far more effective.
Personally I prefer live and let live - I'm sick of hearing farmers moan about having lost a lambs to fox - get a shotgun licence and deal with it humanely!


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## muff747 (16 February 2012)

JFTD said:



			Charming.  What about eventers who hunt to keep fitness over winter?  Shoudl they be banned from CR?  Do hunting folk know nothing of stable management and have nothing to contribute to stable yard?  And no experience of veterinary complaints so they'd be no use in the Vet forum either...

Totally irrelevant to my point, you know I meant hunting comments  And certainly no need for them to post in the general forum, because they hunt so they should stick to the Hunting section 

Get over yourself.  It's a forum, people are entitled to express their opinions in any section they desire, provided they do so in a manner which does not breach the Ts and Cs.  Just because you don't agree with them doesn't mean they should be fenced into another forum  

Click to expand...

The OP is asking if anyone disagrees with foxhunting, not whether it is justified or not
And there are comparable alternatives to hunting an animal - instead of making an excuse to chase down and rip a fox apart (and sometimes an unfortunate cat or two)


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## rhino (16 February 2012)

muff747 said:



The OP is asking if anyone disagrees with foxhunting, not whether it is justified or not

Click to expand...

Yes, and JFTD's comments were in direct relation to you telling people where they should and shouldn't be posting  Whether you agree or disagree with hunting, this is a _public_ forum.. Other people have just as much right to post as you, you know?


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## marmalade76 (16 February 2012)

JFTD said:



			The irony being, I've never hunted in my life  

Click to expand...

Then come for a visit, I'm sure we could find you something!


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## Mike007 (16 February 2012)

Holly Hocks said:



			I agree!!

Anyone who states that they enjoy hunting because of the riding can do the same with a drag hunt - although I hear the jumps are often bigger.

And those who state that the bullet isn't always quicker.......it's quicker than being chased to the point of exhaustion before the fox has to accept it's fate.
Round my way, they go out lamping for foxes at night -quicker, no stress to the fox prior to being killed (unlike hunting) and far more effective.
Personally I prefer live and let live - I'm sick of hearing farmers moan about having lost a lambs to fox - get a shotgun licence and deal with it humanely!
		
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Can I just correct a spelling error, surely you meant get a shotgun licence and deal with it inhumanely. If you dont get an instant kill ,you dont get a second shot, and the animal is wounded and you wont find it. It dies of gangreene,or if it is really really lucky, a quick chop by a pack of hounds.I am sick of hearing people who dont know what they are talking about because they have never had to do these things.


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## JFTDWS (16 February 2012)

muff747 said:



The OP is asking if anyone disagrees with foxhunting, not whether it is justified or not

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Yes, and by asking if anyone disagrees, the OP inviting comments from those who do agree with it - just as if I were to entitle a post saying "Does anyone on HHO think draw reins are the work of satan?", I would get replies from people both agreeing and disagreeing with me, and a discussion would ensue.

It's not acceptable to dictate who can, and who cannot, reply to threads


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## JFTDWS (16 February 2012)

marmalade76 said:



			Then come for a visit, I'm sure we could find you something!
		
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I'd probably die   I'm a coward!  I am planning on taking Fergles sometime though - provided nobody laughs at my midget pony


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## NeilM (16 February 2012)

JFTD said:



			I'd probably die   I'm a coward!  I am planning on taking Fergles sometime though - provided nobody laughs at my midget pony 

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I'm certain nobody will laugh. I am planning on taking the 'fat lad' out next season. I have absolutely no interest in killing anything (I'm done with all that), but I would like to see what all the fuss is about


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## JFTDWS (16 February 2012)

NeilM said:



			I'm certain nobody will laugh. I am planning on taking the 'fat lad' out next season. I have absolutely no interest in killing anything (I'm done with all that), but I would like to see what all the fuss is about 

Click to expand...

You have the 14hh2ish NF, right?  If you can get away with it, I can, I'm sure 

btw, the statement "no interest in killing anything (I'm done with all that)" is slightly ominous   Is there a pile of bodies somewhere we will hear about in the news in a few years?


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## NeilM (16 February 2012)

JFTD said:



			You have the 14hh2ish NF, right?  If you can get away with it, I can, I'm sure 

btw, the statement "no interest in killing anything (I'm done with all that)" is slightly ominous   Is there a pile of bodies somewhere we will hear about in the news in a few years?  

Click to expand...

Yes I have a 14.2hh NF, called Harry.

As for the bodies, I'd tell you, but.......


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## Holly Hocks (16 February 2012)

Mike007 said:



			Can I just correct a spelling error, surely you meant get a shotgun licence and deal with it inhumanely. If you dont get an instant kill ,you dont get a second shot, and the animal is wounded and you wont find it. It dies of gangreene,or if it is really really lucky, a quick chop by a pack of hounds.I am sick of hearing people who dont know what they are talking about because they have never had to do these things.
		
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Ah, do you know me then?  I wasn't aware you knew what I had and hadn't done in my life!  Are you my stalker? I have been aware of a strange presence recently....mainly down on the farm, but I put it down to a fox watching me...


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## AprilBlossom (16 February 2012)

JFTD said:



			I'd probably die   I'm a coward!  I am planning on taking Fergles sometime though - provided nobody laughs at my midget pony 

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If marmalade can get her pony back into work you'd be welcome to take my beast...he's rather large so no one would laugh lol!!


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## JFTDWS (16 February 2012)

NeilM said:



			Yes I have a 14.2hh NF, called Harry.

As for the bodies, I'd tell you, but.......  

Click to expand...

*waves at Harry the NF in slightly dumb "waving via internet and your owner" manner*  

Ahhh, no don't tell, I shall look forward to hearing about it in the papers.  If you're on the run and need somewhere to hide Harry in a stable, you know where I am...

Well, you don't, but...


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## JFTDWS (16 February 2012)

AprilBlossom said:



			If marmalade can get her pony back into work you'd be welcome to take my beast...he's rather large so no one would laugh lol!!
		
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Sounds ominous   Have you seen the photos of me riding?  There's a lovely one of the "good vs bad riding" thread, y'know  Nobody in their right mind would trust me with a horse 

Unless you mean a rocking horse, in which case, I'll get my tweed


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## marmalade76 (16 February 2012)

JFTD said:



			I'd probably die   I'm a coward!  I am planning on taking Fergles sometime though - provided nobody laughs at my midget pony 

Click to expand...

Take a look here :-

https://picasaweb.google.com/113022263092645819322/NewYearsEve#5692336671618550130



This is our hunt, plenty of adults come out on ponies. My own is 14.2/3 (although I have been hunting AB's big lad recently) and no-one is a bigger wimp than me these days.


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## AprilBlossom (16 February 2012)

JFTD said:



			Sounds ominous   Have you seen the photos of me riding?  There's a lovely one of the "good vs bad riding" thread, y'know  Nobody in their right mind would trust me with a horse 

Unless you mean a rocking horse, in which case, I'll get my tweed 

Click to expand...

I take it you never saw my thread where one photograph sums up my complete lack of riding finesse - I am unable to even hold my own head in the correct 'look where you're going' position and instead decide to ride whilst checking out my own cleavage rather intensely!! He's a very tolerant chap


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## marmalade76 (16 February 2012)

JFTD said:



			Sounds ominous   Have you seen the photos of me riding?  There's a lovely one of the "good vs bad riding" thread, y'know  Nobody in their right mind would trust me with a horse 

Unless you mean a rocking horse, in which case, I'll get my tweed 

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AB's horse would never jump like yours did in those pics, but I will provide you with a neckstrap just incase!


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## Ibblebibble (16 February 2012)

Holly Hocks said:



			I agree!!

Anyone who states that they enjoy hunting because of the riding can do the same with a drag hunt - although I hear the jumps are often bigger.

And those who state that the bullet isn't always quicker.......it's quicker than being chased to the point of exhaustion before the fox has to accept it's fate.
Round my way, they go out lamping for foxes at night -quicker, no stress to the fox prior to being killed (unlike hunting) and far more effective.
Personally I prefer live and let live - I'm sick of hearing farmers moan about having lost a lambs to fox - get a shotgun licence and deal with it humanely!
		
Click to expand...

a shotgun is not the best weapon to use to shoot a fox!!!! the ideal gun is a rifle, a very good friend has an open ticket so can shoot anything anywhere, he would never use a shotgun on a fox as it is too hit and miss whether the lead shot would kill outright, a rifle bullet will, although it can also travel up to a mile if it misses so to shoot with one you have to be very aware of where you are aiming. Shows how much you really know if you think shooting a fox with a shotgun is humane!!
Oh and a fox is a prey animal , it's natural enemies would have been wolves and eagles, it has the flight instinct the same as a rabbit.


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## Abz88 (16 February 2012)

Keimanp said:



			I think part of the problem also comes from how far people are distanced from meat production. It doesn't look fluffy or cute in the supermarket shelves and when people see a whole rabbit in the butchers or in a supermaket the looks of disgust and comments along the lines of 'I don't know how anyone can eat that'

Those that are exposed to the killing of animals however fluffy, cute or ugly for food etc seem to find hunting a lot easier to accept. Humans must be by far the largest consumer of meat, but so few people are involved in its production.
		
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You dont eat the fox. Point is totally invalid. 

I am strongly against fox hunting, I have a pet dog and a horse....but feel NO urge to go out an catch an animal. I also have no issue buying and eatoing a rabbit full hung in the butchers. I fish and have no issue catching killing and gutting the fish to be eaten. The fox is brutally murdered, run to within an inch of its life then ripped apart....nice. Then, just left to rot.


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## NeilM (16 February 2012)

marmalade76 said:



			Take a look here :-

https://picasaweb.google.com/113022263092645819322/NewYearsEve#5692336671618550130



This is our hunt, plenty of adults come out on ponies. My own is 14.2/3 (although I have been hunting AB's big lad recently) and no-one is a bigger wimp than me these days.
		
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Love the pony pic, but I'm a little concerned at the almost total lack of male followers. Had you frightened them all off?


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## JFTDWS (16 February 2012)

marmalade76 said:



			AB's horse would never jump like yours did in those pics, but I will provide you with a neckstrap just incase!
		
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And whose fault is it that my home broken pony jumps like a knobber, I wonder? 

AB's horse is clearly a lot better mannered than mine 



AprilBlossom said:



			I take it you never saw my thread where one photograph sums up my complete lack of riding finesse - I am unable to even hold my own head in the correct 'look where you're going' position and instead decide to ride whilst checking out my own cleavage rather intensely!! He's a very tolerant chap 

Click to expand...

Lol, he sounds like a gent!  I've never found myself staring at my cleavage, but I do regularly find bits of myself where I'm not expecting them 



marmalade76 said:



			Take a look here :-

https://picasaweb.google.com/113022263092645819322/NewYearsEve#5692336671618550130

This is our hunt, plenty of adults come out on ponies. My own is 14.2/3 (although I have been hunting AB's big lad recently) and no-one is a bigger wimp than me these days.
		
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Great photos - loving the hounds scrambling over the style   Reassuring to think I might not be alone on the midget pony!


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## Abz88 (16 February 2012)

Ibblebibble said:



			Oh and a fox is a prey animal , it's natural enemies would have been wolves and eagles, it has the flight instinct the same as a rabbit.

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Incorrect. Prey animals have eyes on the sides of their heads, such as rabbits, cows, horses. To give best vision while grazing grass,.....every animal which has forward facing eyes, humans, dogs, lions, cats and fox's are preditors. Preditors have enemies, but this does not make them prey creatures.


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## Mike007 (16 February 2012)

Holly Hocks said:



			Ah, do you know me then?  I wasn't aware you knew what I had and hadn't done in my life!  Are you my stalker? I have been aware of a strange presence recently....mainly down on the farm, but I put it down to a fox watching me... 

Click to expand...

No, I dont know you,but I do know that you know absolutely ++++all about shooting,and gunshot wounds.


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## Holly Hocks (16 February 2012)

Ibblebibble said:



			a shotgun is not the best weapon to use to shoot a fox!!!! the ideal gun is a rifle, a very good friend has an open ticket so can shoot anything anywhere, he would never use a shotgun on a fox as it is too hit and miss whether the lead shot would kill outright, a rifle bullet will, although it can also travel up to a mile if it misses so to shoot with one you have to be very aware of where you are aiming. Shows how much you really know if you think shooting a fox with a shotgun is humane!!
Oh and a fox is a prey animal , it's natural enemies would have been wolves and eagles, it has the flight instinct the same as a rabbit.

Click to expand...

No, I don't do shooting myself, although my OH has done a lot in the past (although strangely we've never discussed what guns he used as apart from a big gun and a handgun I wouldn't know the difference!)  Whatever they use for lamping round here though is pretty effective - I've regularly seen landrovers with quite a few dead foxes in which they seem to think I might want to look at!  I suppose doing it at night minimises the risk when you're in the middle of nowhere though.
My ONLY concern with shooting as opposed to hunting would be that shooting wouldn't necessarily rid the elderly and infirm, whereas with hunting I suppose the younger healthy foxes have a better change of escape whereas it is the sick ones that get caught.  Survival of the fittest and all that....


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## NeilM (16 February 2012)

Abz88 said:



			The fox is brutally murdered, run to within an inch of its life then ripped apart....nice. Then, just left to rot.
		
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This is just the kind of inflammatory nonsense that actually detracts from the anti-hunting argument.

For a start, a human cannot murder a fox, as the definition of murder is the unlawful killing of one human being by another. And for another thing, the fox is not run within an inch of its life, it is killed.

I can fully understand that people cannot agree with killing an animal for sport, but a reasoned argument can be persuasive, inflammatory and emotive language (the weapons favoured by LACS and others to persuade the gullible) just treats those on the other side of the argument like idiots, which they are not.


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## Keimanp (16 February 2012)

Holly Hocks said:



			I agree!!

Anyone who states that they enjoy hunting because of the riding can do the same with a drag hunt - although I hear the jumps are often bigger.

And those who state that the bullet isn't always quicker.......it's quicker than being chased to the point of exhaustion before the fox has to accept it's fate.
Round my way, they go out lamping for foxes at night -quicker, no stress to the fox prior to being killed (unlike hunting) and far more effective.
Personally I prefer live and let live - I'm sick of hearing farmers moan about having lost a lambs to fox - get a shotgun licence and deal with it humanely!
		
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When you go out lamping you tend to use a rifle, most farmers use shot guns. The rifle is a single bullet where as the shot gun is lots of little lead balls generally. To get a rifle you need an advanced firearms licence and a lot of land and space including back drops to use it legally. A shot gun licence is a lot easier to get in comparison but it is a much more crude weapon and works over a shorter distance due to the spread of the shot.


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## orionstar (16 February 2012)

I did, partly because I like animals and partly because of the treatment I received at my first hunt, however - I havent seen a fox in over a year, I mentioned this to a shooting friend recently and the response was this - now that foxes are being shot there is no longer an element of escape. He recently went to Scotland for a shoot to be told that it was pointless, because they got 12 last week.  This speaks for itself and if Hunting with dogs restores the balance then we need to do it!


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## marmalade76 (16 February 2012)

NeilM said:



			Love the pony pic, but I'm a little concerned at the almost total lack of male followers. Had you frightened them all off?
		
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Possibly. It's just as well, really, my husband wouldn't allow me out otherwise!


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## Shantara (16 February 2012)

Abz88 said:



			Incorrect. Prey animals have eyes on the sides of their heads, such as rabbits, cows, horses. To give best vision while grazing grass,.....every animal which has forward facing eyes, humans, dogs, lions, cats and fox's are preditors. Preditors have enemies, but this does not make them prey creatures.
		
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Was going to say pretty much the same thing, so I'll just quote you


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## Mrs B (16 February 2012)

I have never, since I joined HHO, read so much bull hooks on one thread!


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## Keimanp (16 February 2012)

Abz88 said:



			You dont eat the fox. Point is totally invalid. 

I am strongly against fox hunting, I have a pet dog and a horse....but feel NO urge to go out an catch an animal. I also have no issue buying and eatoing a rabbit full hung in the butchers. I fish and have no issue catching killing and gutting the fish to be eaten. The fox is brutally murdered, run to within an inch of its life then ripped apart....nice. Then, just left to rot.
		
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The Point isn't 'totally invalid' as humans don't eat the fox, the hounds do, the carcas isn't wasted. My point was merely putting forward why the majority of people (not everyone) who are distanced from the killing of animals for whatever reason find the death of an animal difficult to deal with especially as they are presented with the fluffy emotive versions. It doesn't help for a constructive and level debate!


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## Keimanp (16 February 2012)

Abz88 said:
			
		


			Incorrect. Prey animals have eyes on the sides of their heads, such as rabbits, cows, horses. To give best vision while grazing grass,.....every animal which has forward facing eyes, humans, dogs, lions, cats and fox's are preditors. Preditors have enemies, but this does not make them prey creatures.
		
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Annielusian said:



			Was going to say pretty much the same thing, so I'll just quote you 

Click to expand...

Really, That is a fixed rule that if an animal has eyes in the front of its head it is just a predator and not prey and not a general rule of thumb? So the fox has no predators? And a Shark isn't a predator?



			
				Answers.com said:
			
		


			In the wild, bobcats, lynxes, panthers, and wolves will take down a fox if they are able, and the bear or wolverine will kill a fox if it can, though the fox is generally too quick and wiley. The young of the fox are vulnerable to larger birds of prey where the adults are not such easy marks and are generally avoided. 
In general, any larger predator will tackle any fox that is found within its range. That's the general rule of thumb - the larger predator will prey on a smaller predator if the opportunity presents itself. Bears, larger canines, or any large cat can be trouble for a fox, as can any large bird of prey.
		
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## Shantara (16 February 2012)

Keimanp said:



			Really, That is a fixed rule that if an animal has eyes in the front of its head it is just a predator and not prey and not a general rule of thumb? So the fox has no predators? And a Shark isn't a predator?
		
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Foxes have enemies, but no animal has a diet of fox. Fish are a different story entirely.
That would make humans pray, because sometimes we get eaten by lions. We're top predator!
Just because one animal kills another, doesn't mean the dead animal was pray. I've witnessed a horse kill a dog (A dog that had done nothing wrong to the horse) does that make a horse a predator? No.


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## Countrychic (16 February 2012)

No one has yet answered my question, do you hunt solely to help the farmers and save the foxes from having to be shot which may lead to a slow death?
I didn't know people were so thoughtful, and to pay to help them out too, truly charitable


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## Keimanp (16 February 2012)

Annielusian said:



			Foxes have enemies, but no animal has a diet of fox. Fish are a different story entirely.
That would make humans pray, because sometimes we get eaten by lions. We're top predator!
Just because one animal kills another, doesn't mean the dead animal was pray. I've witnessed a horse kill a dog (A dog that had done nothing wrong to the horse) does that make a horse a predator? No.
		
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In that case no, the horse doesnt eat the dog? (Well I hope not). The Lion will eat the human in which case and in that instance we are his prey. Overall yes we are the top predator but it is not a hard and fast rule. All of those animals in that list will prey on the fox, they will kill the fox and will eat it. You don't have to have a strict diet of an animal for it to be considered prey.

Definition of prey, noun; An animal hunted and killed by another for food.

It doesn't say it is exclusive


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## Puzzles (16 February 2012)

I daren't answer, but there's a lot I could say. I disagree with fox-hunting on ethical grounds. There.


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## JFTDWS (16 February 2012)

Annielusian said:



			Foxes have enemies, but no animal has a diet of fox. Fish are a different story entirely.
That would make humans pray, because sometimes we get eaten by lions. We're top predator!
Just because one animal kills another, doesn't mean the dead animal was pray. I've witnessed a horse kill a dog (A dog that had done nothing wrong to the horse) does that make a horse a predator? No.
		
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			In ecology, predation describes a biological interaction where a predator (an organism that is hunting) feeds on its prey (the organism that is attacked) ... The key characteristic of predation however is the predator's direct impact on the prey population.
		
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wikipedia, too lazy to get a proper source, but this is what it says in my ecology text book too...

It's not the act of killing that makes an animal predator or its victim prey, but the eating afterwards - and the predator-prey relationship.

So no, the horse killing a dog is not predator-prey relationship.  The shark is, the lion killing human is predator-prey - i.e the nonsense about eye positioning is NOT the definition of prey animals.  

Prey animals often have eyes on either side of their head to allow them to be more successful as prey animals.  This is basic evolutionary theory - the species adapts to become more proficient at surviving and replicating within its niche - so a prey animal develops means of being more successful as such.  An animal does not come into being as a prey animal because it has eyes on either side of its head - unless you're into creationism...


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## Keimanp (16 February 2012)

Countrychic said:



			No one has yet answered my question, do you hunt solely to help the farmers and save the foxes from having to be shot which may lead to a slow death?
I didn't know people were so thoughtful, and to pay to help them out too, truly charitable
		
Click to expand...

Do I hunt, no not regularly, I have been twice since 2003

Was it solely to kill a fox for the farmer? no it was not, the killing of a fox really bothered me. It was to experience the hunt so I could get an impression of what it was about to help me make an informed decision.

Would I hunt to stop a fox from being shot which may lead to a slow death? Yes I would, If every time a fox was shot it was guaranteed to be a slow death, that would be a lot worse than hunting with hounds for the short chase that ensues prior to the first hound getting to the fox.

Do I think hunting with Hounds is the right and only answer. No

Do I think that killing a fox with a gun is the right and only answer. No

Do I think that poisoning a fox is the right and only answer. No definately not.

Do I think that laying snares to catch a fox is the right and only answer. No, I don't like snareing.

Do I think that hunting with hounds has a part in helping control, disperse and improve the fox population. Yes

Do I think that shooting has a part in helping control, disperse, and improve the fox population. Yes and No, it has the means to control but it isn't selective and it removes survival of the fittest.

Do I think that poisoning has a part.... No not really, it is not selective and you can't guarantee it is a fox you get!

Do I think that snareing has a part.... No I don't like snaring.


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## AprilBlossom (16 February 2012)

My sausage dog has front facing eyes yet my chihuahua has sidey eyes...I hope to god I don't find the sausage dog eating the chi one day, had better keep them seperate in case she gets all predator on him!!


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## Keimanp (16 February 2012)

Puzzles said:



			I daren't answer, but there's a lot I could say. I disagree with fox-hunting on ethical grounds. There. 

Click to expand...

There is no reason not to answer, people answering and replying to the thread make it an interesting debate, you may have information that would sway the discussion one way or another. It doesn't matter if your views are for or against, right or wrong. It is only with people views can the thread get richer!

It has given me quite a lot to think about today, and to discuss a polarised topic to get differing opinions is great


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## Shantara (16 February 2012)

AprilBlossom said:



			My sausage dog has front facing eyes yet my chihuahua has sidey eyes...I hope to god I don't find the sausage dog eating the chi one day, had better keep them seperate in case she gets all predator on him!! 

Click to expand...

Yea, but Chihuahua's are man-made mutants (No offence, I actually really like them) so there's no natural evolution there. 
I'm sorry, but foxes are not prey animals. Sure, another animal can kill and eat a fox, making that particular fox prey, but as a species, they are not.


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## AprilBlossom (16 February 2012)

You also can't just  classify a species as predator or prey by where it's eyes are located!!


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## kippen64 (16 February 2012)

JFTD said:



			Good god.  I mean, you're welcome to believe what you like about the ethics of foxhunting, but if you genuinely believe we live in a civilised society, I think you should seek psychological help 

Click to expand...

100% agree with this.


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## Keimanp (16 February 2012)

AprilBlossom said:



			My sausage dog has front facing eyes yet my chihuahua has sidey eyes...I hope to god I don't find the sausage dog eating the chi one day, had better keep them seperate in case she gets all predator on him!! 

Click to expand...

This made me laugh quite a lot! I have visions of a sausage dog charging round after the Chihuahua (Thats not easy to spell!)


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## Puzzles (16 February 2012)

Ok, well while I don't deny that there are (or rather, can be) positive about fox hunting overall I think the negatives by far outweight those positives. To make it easier I'm going to bullet point!

Pros

 - Keeps in use/encourages the use of countryside rights of way, thus encouraging the maintenance of the countryside and its rights of way.
- The social, riding and traditional aspects are very enjoyable.
- The fox population can be controlled, if deemed necessary at all.

Cons

 - Because it is difficult/impossible to control where the fox runs, it is all too easy for riders and hounds to trespass over land that they don't have permission to use.
- Due to the ^above^ point, precious areas of land such as farm land, protected habitats and private land can be damaged or destroyed by the ground being trashed and disturbed.
- Thus farmers/land owners get angry and ban anyone from riding or using their land, reducing places for other riders to ride in.
- Due to the same first 'con' point, it isn't unknown for hunts to ride across busy roads and even dual carriageways (I've seen it) which puts both the riders and hounds at risk (I've seen this too).
- As stated in my 1st post, I find it highly inethical re. the way in which the foxes are flushed out and chased until they are too exahusted or are caught. At which point naturally, the dogs lay upon the fox until they are (with mixed sucess considering the strength of the canine predatory/hunt instinct) called off the fox and the fox is shot. This in no way replicates any kind of natural or evolutionary animal method of hunting.
- The concept of killing something (particularly in such a way) for fun disgusts me.
- Hunting usually means an awful lot of standing around waiting - this is far less the case with drag hunts, because the trail is planned and passage is easier and safer.
- There are perfectly effective and more humane alternative methods of fox population control.
- Most foxes live in urban areas anyway...

I'll stop there 

Drag huntng on the other hand, is awesome: false trail, bloodhounds, great fun, traditional and social, great riding, foxes are (technically but not in practise) safe, only land that has permission to be ridden on is used - everyone's happy!

I absolutely love (ethical) hunting!


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## Countrychic (16 February 2012)

If there was a bloodhound pack near me I would buy a horse to hunt without a doubt


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## The-mad-cat-lady (16 February 2012)

Our land hasn't got permission to ride on but after 20 years we still get the same response..
" sorry we thought it was ******  land ?' 
Yeah right !!! And your whipper in is the same lady who worked for MAFF and slaughtered all our stock during foot and mouth cull .


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## Fiagai (16 February 2012)

Moomin1 said:



			As title says!!
		
Click to expand...


Why is this not in the hunting Forum?
What is the reason/point for this query? - A poll might achieve a more accurate response to this question
The Forum is called H&H otherwise Horse and Hound btw not F&B aka Fox and Bunny the last time I looked...
Please refer to the Hunting Act 2004 before posting - this is how the law currently stands LINK
The same level of uninfomed opinion against Fox Hunting is generally being put forwarded as before the Hunting Act - It would be nice to move on

And especially for the OP   THe Wooden Spoon Award for Stirring S***


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## The-mad-cat-lady (16 February 2012)

Answer my post please


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## The-mad-cat-lady (16 February 2012)

If you've got the guts that is...
The hunt was the south herefordshire


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## Fiagai (16 February 2012)

The-mad-cat-lady said:



			Our land hasn't got permission to ride on but after 20 years we still get the same response..
" sorry we thought it was ******  land ?' 
Yeah right !!! And your whipper in is the same lady who worked for MAFF and slaughtered all our stock during foot and mouth cull .
		
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The-mad-cat-lady said:



			Answer my post please
		
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My dear Mad cat lady...I am presuming you are not refering to myself?

To whom is your post directed?


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## JFTDWS (16 February 2012)

Annielusian said:



			I'm sorry, but foxes are not prey animals. Sure, another animal can kill and eat a fox, making that particular fox prey, but as a species, they are not.
		
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I'm sorry but you are wrong, as were the previous claims on this thread.

Predator-prey relationships are complex.  It's not as simple as defining "prey" species and "predator" species.  There are base line prey species - such as the horse who do not routinely kill other animals to eat them.  They often exhibit the phenomena you describe as the "definition" of a prey species - large fields of vision with limited specific point accuity, due to eyes positioned on either side of head.  That doesn't mean they aren't capable of killing in self-defence - or even killing and eating in a predatory fashion, though this is less common and unlikely to affect the prey population (thus isn't true predation in the ecological sense).

These "prey" species are predated upon by other species, whose common survival traits primarily are evolved to allowed them to hunt - often having "forward facing" eyes - allowing for much greater visual accuity etc.  However, these are often, in turn, predated upon by larger predators - e.g. the fox may be predated upon by a wolf - and in this relationship the fox becomes the prey species.  That is how the chain works.

An individual of a predatory species may become prey to another predator - e.g. a lion predates a human prey - and I am damnably sure that any human being hunted by a lion would admit that they are prey - and act as prey - in that relationship.

I'm not sure that this has any actual bearing on the debate regarding hunting - but if people are going to make outlandish claims, they ought to be scientifically defensible.  

Defining a species as prey by its characteristics in this context is absurd.  By the "eye positioning" definition a golden eagle is prey - as is the Tyranosaurus rex


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## Moomin1 (16 February 2012)

Fiagai said:




Why is this not in the hunting Forum?
What is the reason/point for this query? - A poll might achieve a more accurate response to this question
The Forum is called H&H otherwise Horse and Hound btw not F&B aka Fox and Bunny the last time I looked...
Please refer to the Hunting Act 2004 before posting - this is how the law currently stands LINK
The same level of uninfomed opinion against Fox Hunting is generally being put forwarded as before the Hunting Act - It would be nice to move on

And especially for the OP   THe Wooden Spoon Award for Stirring S***






Click to expand...

1) It's not in the hunting forum because, GUESS WHAT...the majority of people who access the hunting forum will have a biased opinion towards hunting!!  This is a question for ALL users of HHO.
2) Yes, this is Horse And Hound, but the widely varied opinions shown already suggests that many people are not in anyway supportive or interested in the hunting side of things.
3) I am fullly aware of the hunting laws.  I am also more than fully aware of the illegal hunting that commonly and regularly still takes place.

Thanks for the award!!


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## The-mad-cat-lady (16 February 2012)

Good answer moomin..
Doubt I'll ever get an apology..
They have there fun on our land and then play dumb!!!
****** w*ts ....


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## indie999 (16 February 2012)

Yes, I dont understand why chasing an animal the much persecuted fox around fields by a pack of dogs and ripped to shreds(yes they are) is considered a sport or an enjoyment. It gives horse people a hooray henry reputation! A nice clean bullet if a cull is required is humane! But that wouldnt be fair to the riders for their jolly good day out would it?

I have poultry and the fox killed a whole shed of mine. I was not too pleased etc But I do think they need to be controlled ie out of towns etc but I still think a good shot will keep numbers down. Not a pack of dogs in medieval themed charging around countryside is going to really help much.

Foxes do good as well. But hey keep them away from my chickens!Electric fencing.


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## Moomin1 (17 February 2012)

I didn't expect so many responses, never mind varied ones from this thread.  Interesting reading.  It wasn't intended, despite some peoples opinions, to stir ***** but I really was interested, not having been on HHO for all that long.


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## Copperpot (17 February 2012)

I didn't used to agree with it (due to what i had read in the media) but after my boyfriend pointed out what a hypocrite I was being after I was pleased my jack russell caught a rabbit, shook it and killed it, I decided to give it a go and make up my own mind. Went once and was hooked from then on.


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## Fiagai (17 February 2012)

Moomin1 said:



			1) It's not in the hunting forum because, GUESS WHAT...the majority of people who access the hunting forum will have a biased opinion towards hunting!!  This is a question for ALL users of HHO.
2) Yes, this is Horse And Hound, but the widely varied opinions shown already suggests that many people are not in anyway supportive or interested in the hunting side of things.
3) I am fullly aware of the hunting laws.  I am also more than fully aware of the illegal hunting that commonly and regularly still takes place.
Thanks for the award!!

Click to expand...

*** So Glad you showed your *Bias* btw...good to know (that was just too easy imo)

** *Yes it is Horse and Hound - I would be quite surprised if Cycling Fanatics turned up On Formula One Forum and then demanded to know who disagreed with Motor Car racing and that just because it was the Formula One Forum they were not in "anyway supportive or interested in Formula One":  Hint - Read the Forum title again.  Just because it is become somehow fashionable to bang on about ickle foxies and nasty people who hunt, does not make it acceptable to do so here

*** I refer you once again to the law as it stands  LINK  Why the post?  Whats your agenda?  Belong to a rabid anti group by any chance?

***Reading some of the the replies on here plenty of posters are NOT aware of what the laws are and from what you have written I understand that you appear to occupy  the "because I says it is...it is!" brigade

*** Just because I dont like Competing (for example) does not mean that I am going to start a S*** Stirring Competition for posters about it and S*** Stirring is not a hobby to be proud off btw...


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## newbie_nix (17 February 2012)

fburton said:



			Nuisances? Yes, they certainly can be!


Fox populations are largely self-regulating, numbers being limited by space available for territory. It doesn't really matter how many are killed each year, the population recovers within a year or two. Therefore, concerns that there would be a population explosion without culling are unwarranted. There is evidence to support this in what happened due to the temporary hunting ban that occurred during the foot-and-mouth outbreak. In any case, many more foxes are killed on the roads than by deliberate hunting/culling. Of course, it can always be argued that the natural population level (i.e. what it would stabilize at without culling) is too high and this used to justify hunting. However, I have some sympathy for _local_ fox control where particular individuals ("rogue foxes") are killing livestock.
		
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Haven't read all the replies, but on this point, I completely agree. I did a zoology degree many years ago and one of our professors told us that the single biggest killer of foxes is a harsh winter, followed by cars. His view (back before the 'ban') was that fox hunting did nothing to control the fox population and those that did it shouldn't use this as an excuse and actually admit they do it because they enjoy dressing up in pink and torturing animals on a weekend' 

His words, not mine BTW....but it did make me chuckle at the time. One of my best friends at uni was (and possibly still is) very pro hunting and she went a deep shade of purple during that lecture....

I agree it is not an effective form of control and would take no part in it myself . 

Often problems caused by 'pest species' are exacerbated by the actions of man. The UK's high population and requirement for intensive farming methods has thrown the natural environment out of balance. All the rubbish in all parts of the country have been easy picking for the foxes.  I have also seen research that suggests many supposed 'fox kills' were feral dogs. Not all, granted, and I too know what damage they can do in a chicken shed. They can get rather carried away....  But whilst I think its up to a farmer to decide what strategy is best for their own land and wouldn't interfere if they wanted to shoot a few foxes, I personally would take no pleasure in hunting a fox.

We have just moved to NZ - no foxes here, but there are stoats, and lots rabbits! We will be shooting a few rabbits for food. I have a simple rule in life. If you hunt it, you'd better eat it.....


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## Puzzles (17 February 2012)

newbie_nix said:



			If you hunt it, you'd better eat it.....
		
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I agree. Though considering how many animals are slaughtered for general consumption...


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## RainbowDash (17 February 2012)

Perhaps there should have been a voting button at the top of this thread - rather than dragging up the old arguments.

Since there isn't and for the record (all of which made illegal ):

Dog Fighting - Against
Badger Baiting - Against
Cock Fighting  - Against
Rabbit/Hare Coursing - Against
Fox Hunting  - Against
and so forth

Mother Nature is pretty good at looking after itself without mankind putting his foot in it...

..Just leave the cars/vans/lorries in the urban areas to kill the excess fox population - we only need one car for the job - since the creatures have been forced into cities to compete against our own predators - cats.


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## RainbowDash (17 February 2012)

newbie_nix said:



			If you hunt it, you'd better eat it.....
		
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Good point....how many 'hunters' eat fox on the bar-b-que afterwards??


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## Fiagai (17 February 2012)

ShrikeThelwell said:



			Perhaps there should have been a voting button at the top of this thread - rather than dragging up the old arguments.

Since there isn't and for the record (all of which made illegal ):

Dog Fighting - Against
Badger Baiting - Against
Cock Fighting  - Against
Rabbit/Hare Coursing - Against
Fox Hunting  - Against
and so forth

Mother Nature is pretty good at looking after itself without mankind putting his foot in it....
		
Click to expand...

...So if this is true then humans should be controlled by "Mother Nature"...odd the other 7 Billion humans and I obviously live on another planet somewhere else .


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## Moomin1 (17 February 2012)

Fiagai said:



*** So Glad you showed your *Bias* btw...good to know (that was just too easy imo)

** *Yes it is Horse and Hound - I would be quite surprised if Cycling Fanatics turned up On Formula One Forum and then demanded to know who disagreed with Motor Car racing and that just because it was the Formula One Forum they were not in "anyway supportive or interested in Formula One":  Hint - Read the Forum title again.  Just because it is become somehow fashionable to bang on about ickle foxies and nasty people who hunt, does not make it acceptable to do so here

*** I refer you once again to the law as it stands  LINK  Why the post?  Whats your agenda?  Belong to a rabid anti group by any chance?
***Reading some of the the replies on here plenty of posters are NOT aware of what the laws are and from what you have written I understand that you appear to occupy  the "because I says it is...it is!" brigade

*** Just because I dont like Competing (for example) does not mean that I am going to start a S*** Stirring Competition for posters about it and S*** Stirring is not a hobby to be proud off btw...
		
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Errr - have you asked me what my opinion of fox hunting is?!!  I don't recall that I have given my opinion on this thread.  And no I don't belong to any group.  You are very touchy by the way?!!!


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## Fiagai (17 February 2012)

Moomin1 said:



			1) It's not in the hunting forum because, GUESS WHAT...the majority of people who access the hunting forum will have a biased opinion towards hunting!!
		
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Moomin1 said:



			Errr - have you asked me what my opinion of fox hunting is?!!  I don't recall that I have given my opinion on this thread.  And no I don't belong to any group.  You are very touchy by the way?!!!
		
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Lol Your *Bias/Opinion* is quite clear Moonin...even a blind bat would not fail to notice the obvious ... If you dont belong to a group you are doing a very good job of behaving exactly like these collectives of benighted individuals

Oh my little full moon - how about simply trying some proper logical argument and not attempting to stir things and rise people eh?  Its much nicer.


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## Moomin1 (17 February 2012)

Fiagai said:



			Lol Your *Bias/Opinion* is quite clear Moonin...even a blind bat would not fail to notice the obvious ... If you dont belong to a group you are doing a very good job of behaving exactly like these collectives of benighted individuals

Oh my little full moon - how about simply trying some proper logical argument and not attempting to stir things and rise people eh?  Its much nicer.
		
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If you're not careful you're going to end up with high blood pressure!!! Chill out!


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## Fiagai (17 February 2012)

Moomin1 said:



			If you're not careful you're going to end up with high blood pressure!!! Chill out!
		
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haha you will find that those who hunt actually have little or no blood pressure...

I will take it you wish to stop stirring then?...the spoon can be passed on to a more benign use perhaps


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## Moomin1 (17 February 2012)

Fiagai said:



			haha you will find that those who hunt actually have little or no blood pressure...

I will take it you wish to stop stirring then?...the spoon can be passed on to a more benign use perhaps
		
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If it makes you feel better then I will never ask another question which MAY insinuate a disagreement with what you believe in.  I merely asked a question which is a valid one.  Are people not allowed to disagree with hunting?  I am not agreeing or disagreeing either way - just asking.  You are obviously very offending by people who question hunting in general.  As for you saying that illegal hunting doesn't go on - I'm afraid you are either naive or lying.  Not saying you do it - but it goes on very commonly.  No amount of attempted persuasion will tell me otherwise because I know first hand it does!

*offended


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## Moomin1 (17 February 2012)

And if you had little or no blood pressure you would be dead by the way...


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## Fiagai (17 February 2012)

Moomin1 said:



			And if you had little or no blood pressure you would be dead by the way...

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Its funny you should say that, but I have already been told that.....


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## RainbowDash (17 February 2012)

Fiagai said:



			...So if this is true then humans should be controlled by "Mother Nature"...odd the other 7 Billion humans and I obviously live on another planet somewhere else .
		
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I really haven't got a clue what your objection to my comment is.  Since when did 7 billion humans all agree with fox hunting and so forth? Did I miss something?  

And, since when did mankind have control over Mother Nature? we can't control weather systems? the tides, the phases of the moon - can we?


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## Fiagai (17 February 2012)

Moomin1 said:



			If it makes you feel better then I will never ask another question which MAY insinuate a disagreement with what you believe in.  I merely asked a question which is a valid one.  Are people not allowed to disagree with hunting?  I am not agreeing or disagreeing either way - just asking.  You are obviously very offending by people who question hunting in general.  As for you saying that illegal hunting doesn't go on - I'm afraid you are either naive or lying.  Not saying you do it - but it goes on very commonly.  No amount of attempted persuasion will tell me otherwise because I know first hand it does!

*offended
		
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Dear moonin

If you are going to propose a question then may I suggest that you do not start from a basis of cleary stated *bias* (eg: Is there anyone on HHO who disagrees with foxhunting?)  That is a clearly stated opinion on your part in other words a "Loaded Question".  A more reasonable method (and fair to forum members) would be to put together a poll and perhaps more equitably ask "what do you think about foxhunting?  By using the loaded question as you did in this instance you deliberatly or otherwise started a flame war scenario.  I will reiterate this is the Horse and Hound Forum not Bambi Vegans United.  Respect for other forum members comes within the remit of the nature of the forum.  There are extremists who believe that people should not ride horses and that all animals shoulh be released from human captivity - interesting as these arguments are H&H is perhaps not the most suitable forum for this.  You MAY believe that illegal hunting goes on and you by the way are entitled to your opinion However to persuede others there needs to be proof or at least reasoned argument Not just a belief that the world is in fact flat...

Please dont be offended...it simply all boils down to logic at the end of the day....


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## MileAMinute (17 February 2012)

Moomin1 said:



			If it makes you feel better then I will never ask another question which MAY insinuate a disagreement with what you believe in.  I merely asked a question which is a valid one.  Are people not allowed to disagree with hunting?  I am not agreeing or disagreeing either way - just asking.  You are obviously very offending by people who question hunting in general.  As for you saying that illegal hunting doesn't go on - I'm afraid you are either naive or lying.  Not saying you do it - but it goes on very commonly.  No amount of attempted persuasion will tell me otherwise because I know first hand it does!

*offended
		
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Moomin, you are such a troll! Go back under your bridge!


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## Fiagai (17 February 2012)

ShrikeThelwell said:



			I really haven't got a clue what your objection to my comment is. .. 

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I can see that


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## MileAMinute (17 February 2012)

And, to add my 2 cents, I'm indifferent to foxhunting (just to be awkward!).

I don't like it, wouldn't want to do it, but feel if that's what people want to do, let them. I don't have the energy to get into a big debate about it because both sides make very valid points.

I'm one of those annoying people who sit on the fence about everything, need to grow a backbone really! x


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## RainbowDash (17 February 2012)

Fiagai said:



			I can see that 

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There is no need to be rude


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## Fiagai (17 February 2012)

ShrikeThelwell said:



			There is no need to be rude
		
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I wasnt - I simply was stating the obvious ...


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## Moomin1 (17 February 2012)

Fiagai said:



			Dear moonin

If you are going to propose a hypothesis then may I suggest that you do not start from a basis of cleary stated *bias* (eg: Is there anyone on HHO who disagrees with foxhunting?)  That is a clearly stated opinion on your part in other words a "loaded Question".  A more reasonable method (and fair to forum members) would be to put together a poll and perhaps more equitably ask "what do you think about foxhunting?  By using the loaded question as you did in this instance you deliberatly or otherwise started a flame war scenario.  I will reiterate this is the Horse and Hound Forum not Bambi Vegetarians United.  Respect for other forum members comes within the remit of the nature of the forum.  There are extremists who believe that people should not ride horses and that all animals shoulh be released from human captivity - interesting as these arguments are H&H is perhaps not the most suitable forum for this.  You MAY believe that illegal hunting goes on and you by the way are entitled to your opinion However to persuede others there needs to be proof or at least reasoned argument Not just a belief that the world is in fact flat...

Please dont be offended...it simply all boils down to logic at the end of the day....
		
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Yet you are not logical at all.  Your logic is that anyone who comes onto H&H must be a hunt supporter rather than a 'vegan bambi loving anti hunting extremist'.  You cannot possibly see that there are plenty of people on here that have a varied range of thoughts on hunting.  You don't seem to be able to accept this.  The whole fact that I only posted the thread and no more before you responded by accusing me of stirring and being an anti hunt group member, despite a large number of people expressing their disapproval of hunting, says everything.  Maybe I have 'stirred' a lot of opinions and got answers to my question. Problem?  Or should I just lay back and accept that we should all keep quiet if we don't accept your views?


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## RainbowDash (17 February 2012)

Fiagai said:



			I wasnt - I simply was stating the obvious ...
		
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Please elaborate....


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## Moomin1 (17 February 2012)

Fiagai said:



			Dear moonin

If you are going to propose a question then may I suggest that you do not start from a basis of cleary stated *bias* (eg: Is there anyone on HHO who disagrees with foxhunting?)  That is a clearly stated opinion on your part in other words a "Loaded Question".  A more reasonable method (and fair to forum members) would be to put together a poll and perhaps more equitably ask "what do you think about foxhunting?  By using the loaded question as you did in this instance you deliberatly or otherwise started a flame war scenario.  I will reiterate this is the Horse and Hound Forum not Bambi Vegans United.  Respect for other forum members comes within the remit of the nature of the forum.  There are extremists who believe that people should not ride horses and that all animals shoulh be released from human captivity - interesting as these arguments are H&H is perhaps not the most suitable forum for this.  You MAY believe that illegal hunting goes on and you by the way are entitled to your opinion However to persuede others there needs to be proof or at least reasoned argument Not just a belief that the world is in fact flat...

Please dont be offended...it simply all boils down to logic at the end of the day....
		
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I apologise - I am sure the answers on this thread would have been very different if I had named it 'What do you think of fox hunting'.


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## RainbowDash (17 February 2012)

Moomin1 said:



			I apologise - I am sure the answers on this thread would have been very different if I had named it 'What do you think of fox hunting'.
		
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Doubt it - there's always a lot of heat around this subject and not enough people to agree to disagree...IMHO


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## Fiagai (17 February 2012)

Moomin1 said:



			Yet you are not logical at all.  Your logic is that anyone who comes onto H&H must be a hunt supporter rather than a 'vegan bambi loving anti hunting extremist'.  ?
		
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No I am reasonably sure that H&H gets all types of nutcases tbh, but for those here who have a genuine interest in what the forum is about and the interests it extols then it IS logical to presume that the former should be more intetested in what I referred to as "Bambi Vegan" related interests on the Bambi Vegan United Forum next door...

Personally I like this Forum to remain as *Horse & Hound*  but hey do feel free to start a poll to see if we should change to something more modern and pc..


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## Fiagai (17 February 2012)

Moomin1 said:



			I apologise - I am sure the answers on this thread would have been very different if I had named it 'What do you think of fox hunting'.
		
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Why? What do you think you would lose?  Is somehow being open minded not acceptable anymore?


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## newbie_nix (17 February 2012)

Fiagai said:



			...So if this is true then humans should be controlled by "Mother Nature"...odd the other 7 Billion humans and I obviously live on another planet somewhere else .
		
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Oh I believe she will get around to us at some point.... 

Seriously though, 7 billion on a planet that most scientists believe can only sustain 1-2 billion in the long-term. Currently food production is being propped up by the use of chemicals and intensive farming methods, giving us a false sense of security (in richer countries). But with soil fertility declining due to all the mineral leaching and deforestation .....I believe its only a matter of time before there is a pretty big natural readjustment of the human population.

If we don't clean up our collective act I'm sure that pretty soon the foxes will be the least of our worries....

Sorry bit of a tangent there but 'the 7 billion' issue is a subject I get quite passionate about...as you were!


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## Moomin1 (17 February 2012)

Fiagai said:



			Why? What do you think you would lose?  Is somehow being open minded not acceptable anymore?
		
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Blimey that's a bit hypocritical!!!  But if it makes you feel better I am sure that if I posted a different thread under that name then you would get very different answers - surely? - Err.....Or maybe not?!  Try it and see!!


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## Moomin1 (17 February 2012)

Fiagai said:



			No I am reasonably sure that H&H gets all types of nutcases tbh, but for those here who have a genuine interest in what the forum is about and the interests it extols then it IS logical to presume that the former should be more intetested in what I referred to as "Bambi Vegan" related interests on the Bambi Vegan United Forum next door...

Personally I like this Forum to remain as *Horse & Hound*  but hey do feel free to start a poll to see if we should change to something more modern and pc..
		
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Bordering on offensive there.  So anyone who disagrees with your views is a nutcase?!!


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## Fiagai (17 February 2012)

Moomin1 said:



			....But if it makes you feel better I am sure that if I posted a different thread under that name then you would get very different answers - surely? - Err.....Or maybe not?!  Try it and see!!
		
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Dear Moonin please try and think back to the way in which you posed your initial question...I do hope that you can understand this simple point at least...



Moomin1 said:



			Bordering on offensive there.  So anyone who disagrees with your views is a nutcase?!!
		
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No just one! Do feel free of course to take the relevant post out of context


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## RainbowDash (17 February 2012)

Moomin1 said:



			Bordering on offensive there.  So anyone who disagrees with your views is a nutcase?!!
		
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## Fiagai (17 February 2012)

Moomin1 said:



			Bordering on offensive there.  So anyone who disagrees with your views is a nutcase?!!
		
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ShrikeThelwell said:



			Must be a lot of nutters on here then
		
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No found just one so far...


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## Fiagai (17 February 2012)

newbie_nix said:



			Oh I believe she will get around to us at some point.... 

Seriously though, 7 billion on a planet that most scientists believe can only sustain 1-2 billion in the long-term. Currently food production is being propped up by the use of chemicals and intensive farming methods, giving us a false sense of security (in richer countries). But with soil fertility declining due to all the mineral leaching and deforestation .....I believe its only a matter of time before there is a pretty big natural readjustment of the human population.

If we don't clean up our collective act I'm sure that pretty soon the foxes will be the least of our worries....

Sorry bit of a tangent there but 'the 7 billion' issue is a subject I get quite passionate about...as you were! 

Click to expand...

Thanks newbie_nix  - Something I feel quite strongly about too.  Sometimes I think - whats the point


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## RainbowDash (17 February 2012)

Fiagai said:



			No found just one so far...

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Although everyone is entitled to their own opinion I do find you very rude.

Wind your neck in and accept that not everyone who joins this site has the same opinions as you.


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## Moomin1 (17 February 2012)

ShrikeThelwell said:



			Although everyone is entitled to their own opinion I do find you very rude.

Wind your neck in and accept that not everyone who joins this site has the same opinions as you.
		
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Thankyou ShrikeThelwell, 

Insinuating someone has a mental illness because they do not agree with certain people's opinions is highly out of order and quite honestly disgusting.  I hope the person who commented is ashamed of themselves.


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## Fiagai (17 February 2012)

ShrikeThelwell said:



			Although everyone is entitled to their own opinion I do find you very rude.
Wind your neck in ..
		
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				ShrikeThelwell said:
			
		


			Must be a lot of nutters on here then
		
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  Well before you deleted THIS little piece of nastiness and the latest contribution above then I would put it like follows - Pot - Kettle - Black



ShrikeThelwell said:



			Wind your neck in and accept that not everyone who joins this site has the same opinions as you.
		
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By the way ShT what you suggest is the exact opposite of what has actually been stated - do go back and try to understand what has been said, - please


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## Fiagai (17 February 2012)

It is the most curious thing .. but I could swear there is a very strange echo in here...


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## Moomin1 (17 February 2012)

Fiagai said:



			It is the most curious thing .. but I could swear there is a very strange echo in here...

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It's called 2:47am - funny that!!!


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## Ladydragon (17 February 2012)

Keimanp said:



			Shooting them is not ideal at all and infact much worse. At home we have a sort of game keeper to keep on top of the rabbits, rooks, and pidgeons to help keep a healthy and diverse range of wildlife in the area. Even in close quarters a kill is not guarenteed and you are more likely to maime and have to continue with a second shot to kill.

Over 50m the shot from a shotgun (the gun of choice for most farmers) will be fairly dispersed and not accurate resulting in a peppering of lead shot into the fox, most likely the rear quarters as the predicted movement of the fox was incorrect.

To shoot a fox does in no way mean a quick, clean, pain free death. More often and more likely a slow, painful messy death or worse surviving to starve to death. Please don't believe it is any more humane!
		
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Maybe I've interpreted this badly but it seems to lean towards the suggestion that farmers in general only have shotgun licenses, are totally unaware that a rifle would be the desired choice but use a shotgun knowing it'll most likely maim - but might not be bothered?

That's not my experience, thankfully...  The warden or one of his minions is regularly called out these days for the guys who don't hold a firearms certificate/don't rate their marksmanship highly enough...  It was the same when I was on the police register many moons ago - for foxes, or unfortunately, sometimes just as often, the loose dogs some muppet had dumped rather than take care of...  

Granted, an injured fox could die a prolonged, and horrible death but it a bad shot could also leave it still able to take down livestock...  Most I've known want it killed cleanly and quickly and, if necessary, will call for help from another farmer, the game keeper etc if their own skills aren't good enough...  Although there will be an obvious bias in my view given the individuals who'd take pot shots with a shotgun wouldn't be likely to call someone out anyway... 



Saucisson said:



			Hmmmmmmm, I straddle the fence.

I was raised in fox-hunting country by city parents from very poor backgrounds who had come through the post-war education system and done good.
<snip>
Those that are exposed to the killing of animals however fluffy, cute or ugly for food etc seem to find hunting a lot easier to accept. Humans must be by far the largest consumer of meat, but so few people are involved in its production.
		
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I really enjoyed reading your post... 

Although personally, I know where my meat comes from as I've always had a bit of a moral issue about the animal's quality of life and humane slaughter...  I'd rather see an efficient bullet used on a fox than a hunt...  But I've had to clear up 'people' created mess with loose dogs, deer poaching etc and after one particularly disgusting poaching incident, I burned out...  So have perhaps less tolerance for something that might result in animal death but is more about the human participants...  And that's not knocking anyone who does think fox hunting is fine - it's just my own thoughts for myself...


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## Alec Swan (17 February 2012)

I used to enjoy hunting,  then I was stopped.  I was told that the world had moved on and that what had happened for centuries,  and become an integral part of rural life,  was no longer acceptable.  I was told that this was so by those with no understanding,  experience,  or interest in rural life.  I was told this by those who would be my moral guardians.

It still seems strange to me,  however,  that those who were opposed to my activities were more concerned with the fact that they viewed me as a person who looked down on them,  than with any genuine concern for the welfare of any.  I suppose that in a way they were right,  in that I did actually look down on them,  and still do.

Still,  that's the way that it is.  I no longer chase foxes,  with dogs,  and I feel so much better for that.  I'm as grateful as I can be,  under the circumstances.

Alec.


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## Keimanp (17 February 2012)

Ladydragon said:



			Maybe I've interpreted this badly but it seems to lean towards the suggestion that farmers in general only have shotgun licenses, are totally unaware that a rifle would be the desired choice but use a shotgun knowing it'll most likely maim - but might not be bothered?
		
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Farmers in general do only have shotgun licenses, I wouldn't say that they are totally unaware that a rifle would be a desired choice. It may just be from the area in which I live, but in my experience they don't hold the firearms certificate for a rifle but one for a shotgun. This may be due to a number of factors such as the land topography in the area, the amount of land of which the farmer owns, the local police force who regulate and check licenses and choice of firearm for the land you have permission for including the range topography.

To get a firearms license for a rifle you have to have the permission of a large area of land due to if you miss how far will the bullet go? If you have a small to medium farm you will only ever get a shot gun license for use of controlling pests and not a firearms license, unless it is specifically for on the firing range only. The people who have firearms license's tend to have the permission of multiple large land owners. You then also have to have a different calibre rifle for the type of game you are going for.

Add the belief that this time the shot from the shot gun will kill and not just maime the fox, or the frustration that its terrorising your animals and you want something done about it whilst you can see him and you reach the point of ideal-olagy versus reality.

The farmers do have people with rifles come out to control numbers of a variety of vermin but that does not stop them from carrying or using their shot guns.

The belief that shooting a fox is quick clean and effcient is wrong in most cases.


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## Fiagai (17 February 2012)

Fiagai said:



			No I am reasonably sure that H&H gets all types of nutcases tbh...
		
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Moomin1 said:



			Bordering on offensive there.  So anyone who disagrees with your views is a nutcase?!!
		
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Re Nutcases - the point is obviously that we can all fall within this definition - anyone who spends a considerable portion of their income on pampered four legged beasties of specific variety (AND why we are have people who gather on the *Horse & Hound *forum btw) ....but I do forget little full moon that we do have be be seen to be overtly PC these days and I now withdraw this as it unfair to hazel and all other types of indiginous and non indiginous nuts and also my other comment to your little friend - echo regarding the pot calling the kettle black on the grounds that this may now be considered racists to pots*


*carries themselves outside to give themselves for a good flitching*


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## Montyforever (17 February 2012)

One thing really confuses me .. 
Why cant foxes be caught in traps (not snares!) and then shot. Then there's no worrying about them running off injured then. 
Don't know if that would work as ive never tried it or know anyone that has but it seems a sensible idea??


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## Amymay (17 February 2012)

montyforever said:



			One thing really confuses me .. 
Why cant foxes be caught in traps (not snares!) and then shot. Then there's no worrying about them running off injured then. 
Don't know if that would work as ive never tried it or know anyone that has but it seems a sensible idea??
		
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It does seem a very sensible idea.


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## shortstuff99 (17 February 2012)

Also they do that for other pest species, ie mink, rabbit etc


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## NeilM (17 February 2012)

montyforever said:



			One thing really confuses me .. 
Why cant foxes be caught in traps (not snares!) and then shot. Then there's no worrying about them running off injured then. 
Don't know if that would work as ive never tried it or know anyone that has but it seems a sensible idea??
		
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They can and it is done.

The problem is that it is very time consuming, as all traps have to be checked daily, if not twice a day. In the meantime a wild fox is trapped in a cage, and the damage they can do to themselves as they try to escape can be terrible.

It is a method used though, where a particular fox has taken to returning to the same place that has a food source. In the past, the local hunt used to provide this service.


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## Montyforever (17 February 2012)

Neilm - see what you mean, but at least that way the actual death is quicker than if it's shot and runs off half dead  its a really hard decision as to which method is least cruel .. They all have their pros and cons!


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## TwoPair (17 February 2012)

QR as I can't be a**** to read the arguing. The one thing that annoys me is the 'ripped apart' line that keeps being pulled out. I have been at numerous kills over the pre ban years and in every situation the huntsman/whip/terrierman (whoever wad there first) has removed the fox from the hounds and either slung it or buried it. I have never seen hounds trotting round with pads/brushes/masks/ribs in their mouths post kill.


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## Honey08 (17 February 2012)

I haven't read the last ten pages or so, but it would have been interesting if this had been a poll - to see numbers...


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## NeilM (17 February 2012)

TwoPair said:



			The one thing that annoys me is the 'ripped apart' line that keeps being pulled out. I have been at numerous kills over the pre ban years and in every situation the huntsman/whip/terrierman (whoever wad there first) has removed the fox from the hounds and either slung it or buried it. I have never seen hounds trotting round with pads/brushes/masks/ribs in their mouths post kill.
		
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Ahhh yes, but then where is the 'cruelty' aspect which those against hunting need, to persuade the tens of thousands of city / town living people who will be casting their votes at the next election.


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## JFTDWS (17 February 2012)

Honey08 said:



			I haven't read the last ten pages or so, but it would have been interesting if this had been a poll - to see numbers...
		
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Done.  In as unbiased a manner as I can manage


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## Honey08 (17 February 2012)

JFTD said:



			Done.  In as unbiased a manner as I can manage 

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Thank you.  I need to learn how to do that!


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## JFTDWS (17 February 2012)

Honey08 said:



			Thank you.  I need to learn how to do that!
		
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It's easy - when you post a new thread, you just click the option for "include poll" which is at the bottom of the "new thread" page - then submit it and it directs you to a page where you can fill in the poll question and options


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## marmalade76 (17 February 2012)

newbie_nix said:



			Oh I believe she will get around to us at some point.... 

Seriously though, 7 billion on a planet that most scientists believe can only sustain 1-2 billion in the long-term. Currently food production is being propped up by the use of chemicals and intensive farming methods, giving us a false sense of security (in richer countries). But with soil fertility declining due to all the mineral leaching and deforestation .....I believe its only a matter of time before there is a pretty big natural readjustment of the human population.

If we don't clean up our collective act I'm sure that pretty soon the foxes will be the least of our worries....

Sorry bit of a tangent there but 'the 7 billion' issue is a subject I get quite passionate about...as you were! 

Click to expand...

There's certainly far too many people in this country, the rate they are building new houses round here is frightening. The house my OH grew up in used to be in the middle of nowhere....


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## Countrychic (17 February 2012)

No one has been able to answer any of the points I made. It seems easier to argue whether or not a fox is prey or not and whether this thread was started to stir and not actually defend hunting.


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## NeilM (17 February 2012)

Countrychic said:



			No one has yet answered my question, do you hunt solely to help the farmers and save the foxes from having to be shot which may lead to a slow death?
I didn't know people were so thoughtful, and to pay to help them out too, truly charitable
		
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Let's put it the other way round: Without the permission of the farmers and landowners to pass over their land, there would be no hunting. So we could assume that in addition to enjoying the spectacle of the hunt and its traditions, that farmers must feel they are getting some benefit, otherwise they would not put up with having all those people and horses crossing their land. 

Obviously not all farmers allow access, but a measure of feeling can be gained by remembering that many farmers and landowners who had previously allowed the MOD access to their land, removed that permission after the ban, not because they had any objection to the MOD, but because they saw it as the only way they could get the Governments / politicians attention.


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## MerrySherryRider (17 February 2012)

NeilM said:



			Ahhh yes, but then where is the 'cruelty' aspect which those against hunting need, to persuade the tens of thousands of city / town living people who will be casting their votes at the next election.
		
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This something that interests me. The notion that town dwellers are anti hunt/ignorant, while people living in villages are blessed with some divine knowledge about all things rural.

How do those who have horses on full livery on hunting yards, yet live and work in cities, only seeing their horses on hunt days, have a knowledge of country life ?
 Or those whose only contact is the daily commute from village home to city ?
 How about town dwelling horseowners who have a horse on DIY livery in the countryside and hunt ? 

 I can understand farmers, hunt staff, farriers, gamekeepers, conservationists, dry stone wallers, hedge layers, large animal vets, etc having an intimate knowledge of all things country.

What percentage hunt members/supporters make a living from the land ?
Do those who don't have a valid opinion ?

We all have the right to express an opinion about things we have no personal knowledge of, democracy works on that premise. 

Those who have a cause have the responsibility to accurately educate and respect the views of their critics, not to rubbish their right to be heard.


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## NeilM (17 February 2012)

horserider said:



			This something that interests me. The notion that town dwellers are anti hunt/ignorant,
		
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That's not what I said, and if I implied it then I apologise as it was not my intention.

In truth I think that only those who are pro or anti really have any interest or knowledge of hunting, the rest of the general population, wherever they live, don't know and don't care, they have other things to worry about, like paying the mortgage / rent and having a job.

However, when the publicity campaigns get going, which they will again as soon as talk of a repeal starts, then those who are wise in the ways of PR will do their best to arouse some interest in order to put pressure on politicians.

At that point all the 'ripping apart' stories and photo's will reappear.


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## MerrySherryRider (17 February 2012)

NeilM said:



			That's not what I said, and if I implied it then I apologise as it was not my intention.

In truth I think that only those who are pro or anti really have any interest or knowledge of hunting, the rest of the general population, wherever they live, don't know and don't care, they have other things to worry about, like paying the mortgage / rent and having a job.

However, when the publicity campaigns get going, which they will again as soon as talk of a repeal starts, then those who are wise in the ways of PR will do their best to arouse some interest in order to put pressure on politicians.

At that point all the 'ripping apart' stories and photo's will reappear.
		
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No, the apology is mine, I think you were correct, I rather lazily quoted you, rather than trawling back through posts where this attitude against town dwellers is more accurately demonstrated.

It's up to those who wish to support the hunting cause not only to educate but to acknowledge the valid points their opponents have in order to win public opinion.
Extremists and entrenched ideas in both camps alienate rational thinking people.


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## Countrychic (17 February 2012)

But you still haven't answered the question!

IMO the people that hunt fall into a few categories

People that only have regard for their own pleasure and genuinely have no regard for how it impacts upon others. These people would probably attend cock fighting and bull fighting if it was still allowed.

People that bury their heads, they like hunting, like the social aspect, feel it benefits their horses, fancy the whipper in, whatever, BUT wouldn't want to actively take part in the organising or killing of an animal. These are the people that are repulsed by the sign of a freshly caught rabbit but will happily toddle off to tesco and buy a chicken that has lived a way worse life than the rabbit ever did. IMO this is the majority

IMO the minority left are people that are directly affected by foxes killing their livestock. They prefer hunting to shooting because they either think it's more humane or because they enjoy hunting.

My problem is very few people are being honest about the true reasons for hunting. They give poor reasons to support it. I am actually open minded but have NEVER heard a decent argument for hunting


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## Maggie2009 (17 February 2012)

I cannot understand all the furore about hunting foxes as the current legislation surely provides a good day out,plenty of galloping and no poor fox pulled to shreds at the end.It is cruel and heartless to chase a poor animal to the brink of exhaustion before ripping it to shreds.Why is it the the hunting mob want to kill foxes?


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## cyberhorse (17 February 2012)

Countrychic said:



			But you still haven't answered the question!

IMO the people that hunt fall into a few categories

People that only have regard for their own pleasure and genuinely have no regard for how it impacts upon others. These people would probably attend cock fighting and bull fighting if it was still allowed.

People that bury their heads, they like hunting, like the social aspect, feel it benefits their horses, fancy the whipper in, whatever, BUT wouldn't want to actively take part in the organising or killing of an animal. These are the people that are repulsed by the sign of a freshly caught rabbit but will happily toddle off to tesco and buy a chicken that has lived a way worse life than the rabbit ever did. IMO this is the majority

IMO the minority left are people that are directly affected by foxes killing their livestock. They prefer hunting to shooting because they either think it's more humane or because they enjoy hunting.

My problem is very few people are being honest about the true reasons for hunting. They give poor reasons to support it. I am actually open minded but have NEVER heard a decent argument for hunting
		
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You make a number of very decent points here. I do not want to go too far off topic, but the supermarket chicken thing rang too many bells not to pick up on. I would not go hunting, but if I have more cockerals than I need and we need something on the table for Sunday lunch then one of the lads will go. I would not go to a supermarket where I have no idea on the welfare of the bird on the shelf. I would doubt it has had as nice a life and I would imaging factory killing to be less humane than my method. An example would be blades set and an average height for the chicken hanging by it's legs from a conveyer (not every chicken is average so you can work out the rest...btw next stop is plunging into a boiling vat (sadly I knew someone who worked in one of these places). So I get my hands dirty due to EDUCATION on the topic. This is the point I want to make from this example.

If these debates are to be worthwhile then we need access to the bare facts which are unbiased and not emotional representations second hand from those who have a political agenda. I doubt we will get this...


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## Keimanp (17 February 2012)

cyberhorse said:



			You make a number of very decent points here. I do not want to go too far off topic, but the supermarket chicken thing rang too many bells not to pick up on. I would not go hunting, but if I have more cockerals than I need and we need something on the table for Sunday lunch then one of the lads will go. I would not go to a supermarket where I have no idea on the welfare of the bird on the shelf. I would doubt it has had as nice a life and I would imaging factory killing to be less humane than my method. An example would be blades set and an average height for the chicken hanging by it's legs from a conveyer (not every chicken is average so you can work out the rest...btw next stop is plunging into a boiling vat (sadly I knew someone who worked in one of these places). So I get my hands dirty due to EDUCATION on the topic. This is the point I want to make from this example.

If these debates are to be worthwhile then we need access to the bare facts which are unbiased and not emotional representations second hand from those who have a political agenda. I doubt we will get this...
		
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Chicken Production.

Each factory that deals with chicken production is set to a certain size and is only capable of handling chickens at a certain stage of their development, if the lorry is late for whatever reason by a week then the chickens are turned away and processed at another plant at a later stage in their development when they have attained a certain size.

There are no blades used to kill the chickens as you suggest. when the chicken arrives at a production plant it is hung up on a conveyor by its feet, hanging the chicken makes it in the most part drowsy and they don't have the muscle structure to un-hook themselves. Death is delivered quickly by electrocution and they are not generally plunged into hot vats but the feathers are removed through steaming after death has occured.

In the production of Halal meat when there is no electrocution the birds are diverted off the main line and into a room with people armed with blades to slit the throat of the bird and say the appropriate line as per their custom.

There is an awful lot wrong in the way animals are treated in mass producing them for human consumption and a lot goes on behind closed doors. A very close friend used to work in the main company that supplies to Tesco and other large foodstore chains visiting their sites and providing their IT all over the UK regularly having to crawl through the service channels running data cables. I was very curious and asked too many questions and got too much information.


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## mymare (17 February 2012)

*snore*

And the point of this thread is....?   

Put the wooden spoon down.


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## Amymay (17 February 2012)

mymare said:



			*snore*

And the point of this thread is....?   

Put the wooden spoon down.
		
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It's been a very interesting discussion, imo.


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## Keimanp (17 February 2012)

mymare said:



			*snore*

And the point of this thread is....?   

Put the wooden spoon down.
		
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amymay said:



			It's been a very interesting discussion, imo.

Click to expand...

I would agree that the discussion has been very intersting and varied


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## indie999 (17 February 2012)

NeilM said:



			Let's put it the other way round: Without the permission of the farmers and landowners to pass over their land, there would be no hunting. So we could assume that in addition to enjoying the spectacle of the hunt and its traditions, that farmers must feel they are getting some benefit, otherwise they would not put up with having all those people and horses crossing their land. 

Obviously not all farmers allow access, but a measure of feeling can be gained by remembering that many farmers and landowners who had previously allowed the MOD access to their land, removed that permission after the ban, not because they had any objection to the MOD, but because they saw it as the only way they could get the Governments / politicians attention.
		
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The only reason the farmers round our arable area allow hunting is they have shoots/gamebirds so its of interest to kill foxes! And shoots are big bucks! They dont like dog walkers in case their precious game is mauled by a dog too! ££££££££


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## indie999 (17 February 2012)

montyforever said:



			Neilm - see what you mean, but at least that way the actual death is quicker than if it's shot and runs off half dead  its a really hard decision as to which method is least cruel .. They all have their pros and cons!
		
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I have heard this argument or rather excuse to continue hunting that a maimed fox will die a horrid death if half shot. If the person shooting is a good shot and uses the right ammunition they will kill it.


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## Fiagai (17 February 2012)

mymare said:



			*snore*

And the point of this thread is....?   

Put the wooden spoon down.
		
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cyberhorse said:



			...If these debates are to be worthwhile then we need access to the bare facts which are unbiased and not emotional representations second hand from those who have a political agenda. I doubt we will get this...
		
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Agreed MM & CH

All of the opinions concerning agreeing / disagreeing with Fox hunting (and by this I mean mounted Fox Hunting which was banned in 2004) does absolutley nothing to further the issues which arise from humans interactions with animals

Now whether the issues under discusion are: 

Conventional Farming
Factory Farming
Eating Meat
Wearing Leather
Hunting - Shooting / Hounds / Traps
Keeping Pets
Riding Horses
etc

Then there will always be emotive repsonses from those who* dont *believe OR *do* believe that one or more of the above activities are morally wrong

This is of course normal, unfortunately these responses may be all too easily harnessed to simply go witch hunting 

It is here that  those that are knowledgable about these issues, those that conduct impartial emperical research and those that are willing to discuss without that avoid launching emotive flame wars are the best method of coming to a logical concensus and identifying any required changes in our behaviours

For those that are interested there have been a number of very interesting threads on Fox Hunting.
There are many experienced posters who have been involved variously in shooting / Trapping / Hunting etc. and have posted some very informative points - most of which have been asked about again in this thread.  I did notice someone here posting about trapping + shooting and suggesting it was a good idea - I suggest the use the search facility to find some very interesting first hand accounts of how exactly foxes react to be trapped and other matters that have been already already debated

It is possible to make any claim based on opinion but that does not make it necessarily true.  For Example I may believe that the earth is flat and I can jump up and down and scream that this is so and berate anyone that says otherwise BUT that does not make it so

Imo this thread has served to simply rake the cold ashes of personal emotive response without thought or reason.  I remain sceptic as to why the OP decided to resurect it in the manner of a virtual pogrom


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## LaurenBay (17 February 2012)

I will admit, before joining HHO, I was completly closed minded about Fox hunting. I was dead against it! 

But after I have actually researched it and listened to everyones opinions. I can see why hunting is needed. Although I still hate the thought of a pack of dogs chasing the Fox then ripping it to pieces. But whats the alternative? Poison is likley to kill other animals as well as Foxes. Shooting, well what if the bullet doesn't kill the Fox and it has a slow and painful death as a result of a bad shot.

I live in a town and see so many Foxes here. But then again, I can understand why they would want to live in towns. Rubbish and scraps of food everywhere!


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## rhino (17 February 2012)

cyberhorse said:



			If these debates are to be worthwhile then we need access to the bare facts which are unbiased and not emotional representations second hand from those who have a political agenda. I doubt we will get this...
		
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But the OP of this thread was a fairly straightforward question. She was perfectly within her right on a public forum to ask a question, and there is nothing in the terms and conditions to say that every OP has to have a starting point free of bias  HHO would be a rather different place if everyone had to sit on the fence constantly 

If you want a 'debate' on hunting feel free to start one and set your 'guidelines' that you would like posters to adhere to.

As to the OP's intentions, why does that bother you so much? She asked a *question* on a *public* forum...


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## fburton (17 February 2012)

LaurenBay said:



			But after I have actually researched it and listened to everyones opinions. I can see why hunting is needed.
		
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But is it as needed as much as it is (or was) done? Were _all_ the foxes killed causing a problem?

I am not extremely pro- _or_ anti-hunting - I think it's a grey area.


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## cptrayes (17 February 2012)

NeilM said:



			Let's put it the other way round: Without the permission of the farmers and landowners to pass over their land, there would be no hunting. So we could assume that in addition to enjoying the spectacle of the hunt and its traditions, that farmers must feel they are getting some benefit, otherwise they would not put up with having all those people and horses crossing their land.
		
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Drag hunts?


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## Moomin1 (17 February 2012)

Fiagai said:



			Agreed MM & CH

All of the opinions concerning agreeing / disagreeing with Fox hunting (and by this I mean mounted Fox Hunting which was banned in 2004) does absolutley nothing to further the issues which arise from humans interactions with animals

Now whether the issues under discusion are: 

Conventional Farming
Factory Farming
Eating Meat
Wearing Leather
Hunting - Shooting / Hounds / Traps
Keeping Pets
Riding Horses
etc

Then there will always be emotive repsonses from those who* dont *believe OR *do* believe that one or more of the above activities are morally wrong

This is of course normal, unfortunately these responses may be all too easily harnessed to simply go witch hunting 

It is here that  those that are knowledgable about these issues, those that conduct impartial emperical research and those that are willing to discuss without that avoid launching emotive flame wars are the best method of coming to a logical concensus and identifying any required changes in our behaviours

For those that are interested there have been a number of very interesting threads on Fox Hunting.
There are many experienced posters who have been involved variously in shooting / Trapping / Hunting etc. and have posted some very informative points - most of which have been asked about again in this thread.  I did notice someone here posting about trapping + shooting and suggesting it was a good idea - I suggest the use the search facility to find some very interesting first hand accounts of how exactly foxes react to be trapped and other matters that have been already already debated

It is possible to make any claim based on opinion but that does not make it necessarily true.  For Example I may believe that the earth is flat and I can jump up and down and scream that this is so and berate anyone that says otherwise BUT that does not make it so

Imo this thread has served to simply rake the cold ashes of personal emotive response without thought or reason.  I remain sceptic as to why the OP decided to resurect it in the manner of a virtual pogrom
		
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You clearly would never make a detective would you?!!!  I haven't been on HHO for very long and I have never seen any past threads relating to this issue.  It was merely a thought that popped into my head one evening and I thought I would ask.  Once again, I am deeply sorry that my simple and unbiased question on a public forum appears to have touched a very raw nerve with you.  Next time I dare to post a thread on HHO I will be sure to PM you first to ensure it is acceptable for you.


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## Moomin1 (17 February 2012)

rhino said:



			But the OP of this thread was a fairly straightforward question. She was perfectly within her right on a public forum to ask a question, and there is nothing in the terms and conditions to say that every OP has to have a starting point free of bias  HHO would be a rather different place if everyone had to sit on the fence constantly 

If you want a 'debate' on hunting feel free to start one and set your 'guidelines' that you would like posters to adhere to.

As to the OP's intentions, why does that bother you so much? She asked a *question* on a *public* forum...
		
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Thankyou Rhino!!


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## NeilM (17 February 2012)

cptrayes said:



			Drag hunts?
		
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I guess some farmers just like the hunt to still exist, tradition and all that.

Like I said, no country, no hunt, so the Master(s) of a drag hunt must be a very skilled negotiator.


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## LouandBee (17 February 2012)

scrunchie said:



			They just seem to do it for fun. Ok, I've got no evidence as to what a happy fox looks like but it's the fact that they will destroy and kill as many animals as a cage will hold and leave the carcasses there (not eat them) suggests that they don't kill simply because they need to.
		
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Hmmm and I suppose the hounds only kill the fox because they need too?

Sorry but haven't read all the posts but yes there are plenty who don't agree with fox hunting. In my opinion it's barbaric and a good way to lame a horse. I think it should be banned outright and people should just go for a hack with thier mates instead.


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## cptrayes (17 February 2012)

NeilM said:



			I guess some farmers just like the hunt to still exist, tradition and all that.

Like I said, no country, no hunt, so the Master(s) of a drag hunt must be a very skilled negotiator.
		
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NeilM I think it's exactly the same as for fox hunting. One is that they like to see the hunt, two is that hunts, drag as well, collect their fallen stock (for non-hunters, dead and needs-to-be-dead animals). As a drag hunter regularly meeting landowners, I don't think most of them care much about whether hunts catch foxes, to be hones. I get the impression that most farmers are perfectly happy to shoot or snare or gas or poison them.


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## cyberhorse (17 February 2012)

rhino said:



			But the OP of this thread was a fairly straightforward question. She was perfectly within her right on a public forum to ask a question, and there is nothing in the terms and conditions to say that every OP has to have a starting point free of bias  HHO would be a rather different place if everyone had to sit on the fence constantly 

If you want a 'debate' on hunting feel free to start one and set your 'guidelines' that you would like posters to adhere to.

As to the OP's intentions, why does that bother you so much? She asked a *question* on a *public* forum...
		
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What?!? Excuse me I was not criticising the OP at any points in my posts in this topic so please read them and bear that in mind! During the course of this thread many posters have been referring to the fact that when the public debate is held regarding hunting not a lot of the facts are debated or information given to the public. I was merely agreeing with this theme! Please see the post above mine as to how the conversation was going at that time...

I do NOT want to set rules for any threads that is NOT my desire OR intention and where have I ever said this? No it does not bother me at all that people have an opinion, this is the basis for having a discussion on a public forum, so on why earth are you having a go and making this personal? Am I not entitled to hold an opinion? i.e. my opinion being that I agree with the posts that refer to politics and the hunting debate that went before mine. I really honestly don't get where you are going with this, why would you be trying to make me out to be someone I am not?


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## rhino (17 February 2012)

cyberhorse said:



			What?!? Excuse me I was not criticising the OP at any points in my posts in this topic so please read them and bear that in mind!
		
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Overreaction much? I quoted one of your posts as you mentioned the validity of 'these debates' and in my opinion the OP was merely asking for opinions, she had not set it up as a measured debate.

I never said you were criticising anyone, merely that several people were making assumptions about the motivation of the OP.

You obviously took my post very personally, and please accept it wasn't meant to be. I quoted that post for a specific reason and because I'm couldn't be bothered to make repeated quotes. Again, the difficulty in extracting meaning from posts, the 'You' was for the reader, not necessarily you as a poster.


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## cyberhorse (17 February 2012)

rhino said:



			Overreaction much? I quoted one of your posts as you mentioned the validity of 'these debates' and in my opinion the OP was merely asking for opinions, she had not set it up as a measured debate.

I never said you were criticising anyone, merely that several people were making assumptions about the motivation of the OP.

You obviously took my post very personally, and please accept it wasn't meant to be. I quoted that post for a specific reason and because I'm couldn't be bothered to make repeated quotes. Again, the difficulty in extracting meaning from posts, the 'You' was for the reader, not necessarily you as a poster.
		
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If you directly quote a post using you and your and asking "why does it bother you so much?" I think it is only fairly natural to assume the question is at the poster who is quoted, so a reaction to this is natural. I feel I have answered the questions you posed so I am done. You have stated it was not intended to be personal more generalised the you/your - so fair enough I now won't take it to be intended in that way.


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## Countrychic (17 February 2012)

NeilM you still haven't answered the question


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## NeilM (18 February 2012)

Countrychic said:



			NeilM you still haven't answered the question
		
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What question?

Do I disagree with fox hunting? No I don't.

What I do disagree with is legislation brought in by a Government for purely political reason, hidden under the guise of concern for animal welfare. The whole act was forced through to appease the Labour back benches and to allow them to 'have a go at the toffs'.


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## Dolcé (18 February 2012)

Annielusian said:



			I hate it. People say foxes are over populated? I live in the middle of the country and it's such a rare occasion that I actually see one. It gives me such a thrill to see a wild fox, but when cars and hunts are killing them...No, I can't agree with that. 

One of my extremely rare sightings!
http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j308/gothic180/Fox011-1.jpg

Like Welshie said, I don't like people interfering and sabotaging hunts, that can get downright nasty.
		
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When we lived in the middle of nowhere we saw 1 fox in the several years we were there, rural foxes are completely different to urban ones.  Now we are back in an urban area with the horses kept on the edge just into a countryside area we see them at the yard and at home several times a day, through the day, there are shed loads of them!  Whilst I love to see them the devastation they wreak amongst my hens is incredibly painful to deal with - to the point that when the hens die off they will not be replaced, yet in the countryside they ran completely free range for years with no losses.


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## Countrychic (18 February 2012)

No, I asked are you saying you hunt just to save the foxes from having to be shot and protect the farmers stock? 
If badgers were killing the stock but the only way to kill them humanely was to run miles round the countryside rather than ride and whallop them on the back of the head would you be as keen? You could still get dressed up though!
Do you worry about the rabbits that are shot by farmers that aren't a good shot? 
What about deer hunting?


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## Ranyhyn (18 February 2012)

I can't stand the thought of killing anything.  However as a landowners and sheep farmers it's something we cannot avoid.
My OH has assured me the gentleman who comes to despatch our foxes is a fabulous shot and that it is very cleanly done.
I'll never be happy about it.  I wouldn't let the hunt come across our land if they wanted to, because I don't believe in taking enjoyment in killing and too many people (NOT ALL) actually do take enjoyment from it.
It's a necessary evil but not one that one should do with a smile on your face. IMO


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## Countrychic (18 February 2012)

Totally agree with the above


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## RunToEarth (18 February 2012)

fburton said:



			But is it as needed as much as it is (or was) done? Were _all_ the foxes killed causing a problem?

I am not extremely pro- _or_ anti-hunting - I think it's a grey area.
		
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hunting with hounds proposed a solution to a problem created by our ancestors. A fox (and a badger) 's natural predators are the lynx, bear, wolf and golden eagle. The three former are no longer native to the UK because of humans, the golden eagle is rare to Scotland and responsible for a very small amount of predation control. 
The badger since it was protected breeds without any natural culling, which is why we are now reviewing and debating its protection. 
Fox hunting, in my opinion, was a more sensible way to cull- shooting a fox as vermin allows you to disregard any natural breeding season, which means that gamekeepers who previously relied on hunting as predation control, now have to control culling themselves, and due to the commitment to their own breeding seasons for gamebirds the most sensible time for them to cull is in the fox's breeding season.


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## marmalade76 (18 February 2012)

NeilM said:



			What question?

Do I disagree with fox hunting? No I don't.

What I do disagree with is legislation brought in by a Government for purely political reason, hidden under the guise of concern for animal welfare. The whole act was forced through to appease the Labour back benches and to allow them to 'have a go at the toffs'.
		
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Exactly, which is why it is illegal to kill foxes, hares and deer with dogs and not rabbits and rats, 'cause rabbiters and ratters don't have followers who dress up and ride along with them!


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## MerrySherryRider (18 February 2012)

But surely working class blood sports like cock fighting and dog fighting were banned first ?


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## JFTDWS (18 February 2012)

horserider said:



			But surely working class blood sports like cock fighting and dog fighting were banned first ?
		
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The difference being that the toffs don't breed foxes to hunt them!


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## NeilM (18 February 2012)

Countrychic said:



			No, I asked are you saying you hunt just to save the foxes from having to be shot and protect the farmers stock? 
If badgers were killing the stock but the only way to kill them humanely was to run miles round the countryside rather than ride and whallop them on the back of the head would you be as keen? You could still get dressed up though!
Do you worry about the rabbits that are shot by farmers that aren't a good shot? 
What about deer hunting?
		
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I didn't realise that question was aimed only at me.

To answer, I don't hunt, anything, at all, ever.

I intend to start hunting with hounds next season, as I think my pony and I would enjoy the experience.

As for killing foxes, rabbits, deer, or anything else. I have done more than my fair share of that in the past, with snares, ferrets, hawks and rifles; these days I prefer to live and let live. I have never used a shotgun on any form of game, I have always found shotguns to be noisy and inefficient.

Regarding accuracy, I used to regularly shoot rabbits in the head with an air rifle at out to 50 yards (and am happy to demonstrate those somewhat rusty skills to anyone who doubts my word).

Regarding injured animals, I choose not to worry about things I can do nothing about. I have always shown respect for my quarry (well, maybe not rats) and have only once taken an ill advised shot, which did not kill a rabbit cleanly and required a fast follow up shot at close range. It was not a nice experience, and I never did it again. If I cannot kill cleanly, then I don't do it. I have no control over other hunters, so there's really nothing I can do about it, and as I believe in civil liberties, I am not about to call on my local MP to try and introduce yet more 'nanny state' legislation.

Your comment about getting dressed up is telling. This in my opinion is why the majority of people object to hunting. They ignore tradition, although they love the Household Cavalry, and simply see a bunch of toffs dressed up. 

Anyone ever been to a horse show? Watched any showing class? Been to a dressage competition? Do you see the riders slopping about in baggies and a blouson jacket? No, of course not, because a certain standard of dress is required. Same with hunting.

EDIT: How come someone in a showing class, wearing tweed, a stock, cream jods and polished black boots is considered well turned out. But the same person, on the same horse and wearing the same riding clothes at a hunt is 'dressed up'?


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## cptrayes (18 February 2012)

JFTD said:



			The difference being that the toffs don't breed foxes to hunt them!
		
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Possibly not ... 

I have done a lot of research following a discussion earlier this year that you can find on the Hunting Forum if you are interested. At the end of that long, long, discussion I came to the conclusion that fox hunts genuinely conserve fox and produce a more healthy fox population, but that this also, either deliberately or just as a side effect, creates a younger, fitter, healthier fox population in the area, which will provide maximum sport for the mounted followers in being able to run further and faster.

I'll  leave you to decide for yourselves whether that is a bad thing or not.


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## JFTDWS (18 February 2012)

cptrayes said:



			Possibly not ...
		
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I think you misinterpret my comment - I meant that it is morally abhorrent to breed a dog or cock to fight it, in a manner which is not comparable to hunting a subset of a population of a wild species which may be considered a "pest".  In the same way that shooting rabbits is not comparable to cock fighting 

fwiw, it stands to reason that any selective pressure of that nature would have beneficial effects on the survival skills of a population, given that relatively few foxes are killed by the hunt - it's not something I would feel the need to research, since it is relatively well established scientifically - and even in inuit legend the wolf was introduced to the world to improve the caribou


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## ILuvCowparsely (18 February 2012)

I have never like the idea of chasing a fox hunting .

 1. chasing a scared animal then letting the dogs rip it to shreds
 2.  Horses jumping anything in their way ( seen horses jumping a ditch which had farm machinery  the other side ) I wont go into detail of what happened.


 I like drag hunting  

 the thrill of the hunt  with the dogs
 rest bites  for horses to catch their breath
 safe obstacles for horses. 


 IMO  you would not know the difference if you joined *A*  hunt  in the middle of the pack once the hunt had started. and no one told you if it was a real hunt or drag. IMO you would not know.

 Mock hunting is a gr8 introduction to hunting 

 steady   no dogs  to wind horses up smaller jumps
 good for young or beginners 

 ATEOTD  . 
 You want a good day
  jump some jumps
 the thrill of the dogs and horns and huntsman 
and the feeling of greatness being on your horse as part of the hunt knowing what you jump  is as safe as it can be.

 coming home safe  with your horse safe having had a good day.

 Now I know accidents happen  at anytime. But I like the feeling of knowing what lies ahead is known to be safe rather that the unknown.


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## marmalade76 (18 February 2012)

Leviathan said:



			I have never like the idea of chasing a fox hunting .

 1. chasing a scared animal then letting the dogs rip it to shreds
 2.  Horses jumping anything in their way ( seen horses jumping a ditch which had farm machinery  the other side ) I wont go into detail of what happened.


 I like drag hunting  

 the thrill of the hunt  with the dogs
 rest bites  for horses to catch their breath
 safe obstacles for horses. 


 IMO  you would not know the difference if you joined *A*  hunt  in the middle of the pack once the hunt had started. and no one told you if it was a real hunt or drag. IMO you would not know.

 Mock hunting is a gr8 introduction to hunting 

 steady   no dogs  to wind horses up smaller jumps
 good for young or beginners 

 ATEOTD  . 
 You want a good day
  jump some jumps
 the thrill of the dogs and horns and huntsman 
and the feeling of greatness being on your horse as part of the hunt knowing what you jump  is as safe as it can be.

 coming home safe  with your horse safe having had a good day.

 Now I know accidents happen  at anytime. But I like the feeling of knowing what lies ahead is known to be safe rather that the unknown.
		
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I think that a lot of folks who have both foxhunted and dragged/bloodhounded would disagree with you re. safety.

For example :-

_Re: confused - different hunts/hound exercise/hunt rides 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Farmers Bloodhounds - splutter, splutter. I watched once and thought it was the most terrifying thing I had ever seen. OMG the height of the fences and the speed! I could see what the secretary meant when she said don't come out on your 4 year old. I was pleased I had my feet on the ground. "_


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## NeilM (18 February 2012)

Leviathan said:



			I have never like the idea of chasing a fox hunting .

 1. chasing a scared animal then letting the dogs rip it to shreds
 2.  Horses jumping anything in their way ( seen horses jumping a ditch which had farm machinery  the other side ) I wont go into detail of what happened.


 I like drag hunting  

 the thrill of the hunt  with the dogs
 rest bites  for horses to catch their breath
 safe obstacles for horses. 


 IMO  you would not know the difference if you joined *A*  hunt  in the middle of the pack once the hunt had started. and no one told you if it was a real hunt or drag. IMO you would not know.

 Mock hunting is a gr8 introduction to hunting 

 steady   no dogs  to wind horses up smaller jumps
 good for young or beginners 

 ATEOTD  . 
 You want a good day
  jump some jumps
 the thrill of the dogs and horns and huntsman 
and the feeling of greatness being on your horse as part of the hunt knowing what you jump  is as safe as it can be.

 coming home safe  with your horse safe having had a good day.

 Now I know accidents happen  at anytime. But I like the feeling of knowing what lies ahead is known to be safe rather that the unknown.
		
Click to expand...

I'm sorry to be nit picking, but they are hounds, not dogs.


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## vienna (18 February 2012)

Fox hunting...
Hell no..
The current government,
well thats a different matter entirely...


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## FionaM12 (18 February 2012)

vienna said:



			Fox hunting...
Hell no..
The current government,
well thats a different matter entirely...
		
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You mean politician hunting? You know, I think that could be popular.


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## ILuvCowparsely (18 February 2012)

NeilM said:



			I'm sorry to be nit picking, but they are hounds, not dogs.
		
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hounds  - dogs -canines does it really  matter .??
 we all know their  * really name *   Tho I decided to say dogs in one post . Not really necessary  to correct me .



marmalade76 said:



			I think that a lot of folks who have both foxhunted and dragged/bloodhounded would disagree with you re. safety.

For example :-

_Re: confused - different hunts/hound exercise/hunt rides 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Farmers Bloodhounds - splutter, splutter. I watched once and thought it was the most terrifying thing I had ever seen. OMG the height of the fences and the speed! I could see what the secretary meant when she said don't come out on your 4 year old. I was pleased I had my feet on the ground. "_

Click to expand...

 They are  entitled to disagree  I dont care  if they do. I still think  the jumps on a drag hunt are safer than fox hunting when you have no clue what you are jumping as you don't stay on a set course, you go where the fox goes jump what ever is in the way . In all my days of  drag hunting I have never seen a horse land on broken machinery- wire-or other dangers .There were  accidents yes  that happens but nothing through fault of the organizers To many articles  of this happening in fox hunting  , these happened on real hunts which some of the liveries went on in the 1980's.

 I am not going to get into a heated discussion about it 
 This is what  I believe  and heard about .


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## Fiagai (18 February 2012)

Moomin1 said:



			You clearly would never make a detective would you?!!!  I haven't been on HHO for very long and I have never seen any past threads relating to this issue.  It was merely a thought that popped into my head one evening and I thought I would ask.  Once again, I am deeply sorry that my simple and unbiased question on a public forum appears to have touched a very raw nerve with you.  Next time I dare to post a thread on HHO I will be sure to PM you first to ensure it is acceptable for you.

Click to expand...

Yes Moonin I am more than aware you have not "been on HHO" for very long But in my opinion that does not excuse your behaviour in this matter.

Your Thread posed the question "Is there anyone on HHO who disagrees with foxhunting?" with an immediate follow up that contained no explaination or background to why this biased question was being posed.   (btw an UNBIASED question would be "What do posters think about Foxhunting?). Considering that the Hunting Act  constrained legal fox hunting to the annals of history in 2004, I find that the BIASED nature of your question deeply troubling.  Most posters when posting a question give a little background as to the nature of the question - in this thread there was none.

If It was as you later claimed "merely a thought that popped into my head one evening and I thought I would ask",  did the knowledge that such practices had already been legislated against not make you pause and consider why you would need to ask such a question? Indeed that the Hunting Act was controversial and came about as a result of horrendous political machinations appears to be news to you.

When asked why the question was posted in the H&H forum devoted to such issue (ie the Hunting Forum) you clearly stated that you wouldn't do so as that Forum would be biased!  You then also claimed that you "have never seen any past threads relating to this issue"  How do you match this with your concurrent claim of having detailed knowledge of the Hunting Forum being "biased?  The search facility of H&H as indicated would give you an indepth view of related issues and discussions to date.

The H&H Forum contains a Hunting Forum dedicated to (legal) hunting in its present form.  The H&H posters who regularly post there do so with the same validity as any other member of the H&H forum.  

If for example I was violently against for example Competition riding I would *not* take it on myself to post the question "Is there anyone on HHO who disagrees with competing?" in the NL and potentially help whip up a pogrom where regular competition posters who did reply would be lambasted for their interest because of the biased nature of the thread.  As far as I am aware incitment to hatred remains an illegal activity.

On another thread you claimed that various posters were attacking you because you had "started the thread about how many people on HHO disagree with hunting."  Well guess what - Not that many do disagree with hunting here (see JFTDs poll on foxhunting posted as an alternative to your biased post).  This is a forum and posters will not always be either helpful and sympathetic to what you post especially where a poster denigrates the interests of other Forum members.  Where someone challenges what you said, believe it or not this is what is known as a difference of opinion - not an attack.  Differences of opinion are to be welcomed however whilst I accept you don't like foxhunting as it used to be undertaken, I would ask once again what is your motive for posting such a biased question?  After you had attempted to whip up a veritable flame war - would the next step  perhaps be to call on the FC to banish those nasty hunters to the flames perhaps?  Then of course you could have the forum suited to your own devices whatever they are...


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## JFTDWS (18 February 2012)

vienna said:



			Fox hunting...
Hell no..
The current government,
well thats a different matter entirely...
		
Click to expand...

Now that I will not participate in.  I'd hound the lib dems out happily, or hunt the shadow cabinet with pleasure, but...


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## Keimanp (18 February 2012)

JFTD said:



			Now that I will not participate in.  I'd hound the lib dems out happily, or hunt the shadow cabinet with pleasure, but...
		
Click to expand...


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## Moomin1 (18 February 2012)

Fiagai said:



			Yes Moonin I am more than aware you have not "been on HHO" for very long But in my opinion that does not excuse your behaviour in this matter.

Your Thread posed the question "Is there anyone on HHO who disagrees with foxhunting?" with an immediate follow up that contained no explaination or background to why this biased question was being posed.   (btw an UNBIASED question would be "What do posters think about Foxhunting?). Considering that the Hunting Act  constrained legal fox hunting to the annals of history in 2004, I find that the BIASED nature of your question deeply troubling.  Most posters when posting a question give a little background as to the nature of the question - in this thread there was none.

If It was as you later claimed "merely a thought that popped into my head one evening and I thought I would ask",  did the knowledge that such practices had already been legislated against not make you pause and consider why you would need to ask such a question? Indeed that the Hunting Act was controversial and came about as a result of horrendous political machinations appears to be news to you.

When asked why the question was posted in the H&H forum devoted to such issue (ie the Hunting Forum) you clearly stated that you wouldn't do so as that Forum would be biased!  You then also claimed that you "have never seen any past threads relating to this issue"  How do you match this with your concurrent claim of having detailed knowledge of the Hunting Forum being "biased?  The search facility of H&H as indicated would give you an indepth view of related issues and discussions to date.

The H&H Forum contains a Hunting Forum dedicated to (legal) hunting in its present form.  The H&H posters who regularly post there do so with the same validity as any other member of the H&H forum.  

If for example I was violently against for example Competition riding I would *not* take it on myself to post the question "Is there anyone on HHO who disagrees with competing?" in the NL and potentially help whip up a pogrom where regular competition posters who did reply would be lambasted for their interest because of the biased nature of the thread.  As far as I am aware incitment to hatred remains an illegal activity.

On another thread you claimed that various posters were attacking you because you had "started the thread about how many people on HHO disagree with hunting."  Well guess what - Not that many do disagree with hunting here (see JFTDs poll on foxhunting posted as an alternative to your biased post).  This is a forum and posters will not always be either helpful and sympathetic to what you post especially where a poster denigrates the interests of other Forum members.  Where someone challenges what you said, believe it or not this is what is known as a difference of opinion - not an attack.  Differences of opinion are to be welcomed however whilst I accept you don't like foxhunting as it used to be undertaken, I would ask once again what is your motive for posting such a biased question?  After you had attempted to whip up a veritable flame war - would the next step  perhaps be to call on the FC to banish those nasty hunters to the flames perhaps?  Then of course you could have the forum suited to your own devices whatever they are...
		
Click to expand...

Jeez you REALLY need to get a grip!  I am not explaining myself to you any further.  Go away.  Pain in the buttocks!


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## Fiagai (18 February 2012)

Moomin1 said:



			Jeez you REALLY need to get a grip!  I am not explaining myself to you any further.  Go away.  Pain in the buttocks!
		
Click to expand...

ahhh eloquent as ever.....


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## Keimanp (18 February 2012)

On a tangent, although it was this thread that I thought about when I read this article. (I'll get to my point in a moment!)

As humans are considered to be Super-predatory due to the use of the tools brought about by the evolution of the opposable thumb and arguably higher intelligence we have probably slowed or even stopped evolution in its natural form. Should we not assume as a species and race to take on the responsibility to encourage evolution accross all areas in which we have interfered and hindered natural progression?

As previously mentioned in this thread...




			A fox (and a badger) 's natural predators are the lynx, bear, wolf and golden eagle. The three former are no longer native to the UK because of humans, the golden eagle is rare to Scotland and responsible for a very small amount of predation control.
		
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...the fox used to be prey for the wolves that used to inhabit Britain until our ancesters ruined the natural balance. The fox can no longer evolve through the predator-prey relationship and the wolf was removed from the food chain through a decision made by man.

The hunting of a pack of animals, as mentioned in the article and as seen in both land and sea, Lions, killer wales etc is natural.




			I came to the conclusion that fox hunts genuinely conserve fox and produce a more healthy fox population, but that this also, either deliberately or just as a side effect, creates a younger, fitter, healthier fox population in the area, .......able to run further and faster
		
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			it stands to reason that any selective pressure of that nature would have beneficial effects on the survival skills of a population.....  ......since it is relatively well established scientifically - and even in inuit legend the wolf was introduced to the world to improve the caribou
		
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So should we not promote natural order, encourage species to evolve where we have interfered by fencing in stock and protecting, by using tools to improve our abilities etc but ensure that the future and slow natural evolution of all animals big and small is maintained alongside our exisitance however artifical or simulated this may be (hunting foxes with hounds rather than wolves)? Or should we take a static photo of the current evolution of all animals now, put them in zoo's and continue to cultivate and harvest them and only allow our own races progression?

Nature isn't always pretty, should we expect it to be?

A little bit waffley.... sorry (hope it makes sense?)


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## EAST KENT (19 February 2012)

It is my opinion that London is awash with foxes,therefore there is a real need for a hunt in the metrop. My suggestion is an opening meet in Parliament Square ,moving on to draw around the Surpentine and then Hyde Park. Should get some nifty runs ,best make it a Sunday if possible though..less traffic.   Pardon? What hunt ban??


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## EAST KENT (19 February 2012)

NeilM said:



			I'm sorry to be nit picking, but they are hounds, not dogs.
		
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 Abso..bloody..lutely! Rushes off for my smelling salts......


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## ClassicG&T (23 February 2012)

I disagree with the way of killing, ive heard stories that before the ban, they would catch foxes and put them in cages, then when the hounds were near, let the fox go infront of them and let the chase begin. That. Is. Sick. 
Why cant they shoot it? At least it doesnt have to run for its life with its heart pounding.

I understand that they can be a pest, but chasing it to its death is not the way to do it.


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## yeeharider (23 February 2012)

I have stopped hunting since the ban as I no longer feel the fox has a sporting chance of escaping the day, foxes are now shot to lay the trail for a days hunting. Back in my day we chased many foxes but caught very few, they sat on the hillside laughing watching the hunt go past


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## Enfys (24 February 2012)

wewillshowthem said:



			I disagree with the way of killing, ive heard stories that before the ban, they would catch foxes and put them in cages, then when the hounds were near, let the fox go infront of them and let the chase begin. That. Is. Sick. 
Why cant they shoot it? At least it doesnt have to run for its life with its heart pounding.

I understand that they can be a pest, but chasing it to its death is not the way to do it.
		
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PETA and SHARK are a good source of those kind of reports. I would take everything I see or read of their propaganda with a massive dose of salt, facts get doctored and turned around to suit their purpose. I am not getting into whether the cage thing is fact or fiction, sadly, probably fact although I am loathe to admit it. 

A little bit of trivia here: Did you know that PETA put down 90% of the animals they 'rescue' and that they are also against the keeping of horses as domestic animals, and, also against household pets. I know this how? Because I have a friend who used to be involved at a high level with them, so, whatever they say, I have it from the horses mouth as it were.


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