# Hunting an older horse on bute..



## Christmas Crumpet (30 August 2013)

*Just after some opinions here. I've just been given a 20 yr old ex eventer on loan to hunt who is totally lovely. However, he is quite stiff behind trotting on the roads and I think it might benefit him to have him on a low level of bute. 

I am not intending to hunt him all day twice a week jumping all the hedges in sight. He is going to hunt on a Saturday with the odd Tues thrown in and I have no doubt that when he hears hounds, he will be sound as a pound!! He seems fine on grass/school and quite happy. He's on a joint supp already (Newmarket JS) and will be ridden every day. I know I need to keep the trotting on the road down to a minimum and probably do more cantering on grass than trotting but during the week in the depths of winter will need to quickly take him out on the roads to exercise before work. So I'm thinking 1/2 - 1 bute a day when I up the work. He hunts in a snaffle so not worried about not having any brakes!!

What are other people's thoughts on hunting on bute? Yes or no in a circumstance such as mine?*


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## Mrs. Jingle (30 August 2013)

No in any circumstances for me, if an old horse needs pain killers to do any level of work then don't do the work.  I am surprised that the owner thinks this is acceptable frankly. I am on painkillers for old age associated problems, fortunately those that care about me don't expect me to run a marathon or even jog about the place like a teenager.


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## Sherston (30 August 2013)

Absolutely fine to hunt an older horse on bute, one the night before one on the morning and in the evening. Helps the joints and muscles and will keep the horse going for a couple of seasons  where without it might not be viable.

If the horse loves hunting (or other activities) and this helps them get another season then all good. Exactly like Mrs Jingle takes her painkillers, to keep her active (gentle hunting is normal activity for a horse) so she isn&#8217;t turned out to grass (in an OAP home) or shot.

This is a simple way to keep a horse active, if it is hopping lame afterwards then shoot it or turn away for good, as its beyond this stage but if this keeps then running then why not.

Enjoy, as will your horse.

Sherston


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## Christmas Crumpet (30 August 2013)

I will only give the horse bute if I feel he really, really needs it to make him more comfortable so he can do his job. Hunting is what he loves and excels at and it takes years off old horses who otherwise would fester in a field with no job. 

Surely if a horse can still do the job they love then its not so bad. 

I haven't discussed this with the owner yet because I haven't hunted the horse yet so don't know whether he would benefit from it or not. I am hoping him getting fitter and more supple will do the job first of all. He is a lovely, lovely horse who loves hunting and that is why I have got him. I want him to be as comfortable as possible to be able to go hunting and when he gets back from hunting. His welfare is the most important thing here and I want him to be happy and enjoy himself. 

I just wanted to hear other people's thoughts on whether they would use bute in this situation.


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## Mrs. Jingle (30 August 2013)

Well each to their own as the saying goes, and as Sherston says, you can always shoot the horse if it all goes pear shaped.


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## AdorableAlice (30 August 2013)

MrsJingle said:



			No in any circumstances for me, if an old horse needs pain killers to do any level of work then don't do the work.  I am surprised that the owner thinks this is acceptable frankly. I am on painkillers for old age associated problems, fortunately those that care about me don't expect me to run a marathon or even jog about the place like a teenager.
		
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That outlook puts the gun to a lot of horses heads.


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## Ditchjumper2 (30 August 2013)

Sherston said:



			Absolutely fine to hunt an older horse on bute, one the night before one on the morning and in the evening. Helps the joints and muscles and will keep the horse going for a couple of seasons  where without it might not be viable.

If the horse loves hunting (or other activities) and this helps them get another season then all good. Exactly like Mrs Jingle takes her painkillers, to keep her active (gentle hunting is normal activity for a horse) so she isn&#8217;t turned out to grass (in an OAP home) or shot.

This is a simple way to keep a horse active, if it is hopping lame afterwards then shoot it or turn away for good, as its beyond this stage but if this keeps then running then why not.

Enjoy, as will your horse.

Sherston


Totally agree with this.  Far, far better than some poor sad horse wandering round the field "enjoying" doing nothing...with their owner thinking how happy they are.

A lot of hunters hunt on bute, many because they have retired from their day job and hunting is their retirement. My old boy was a bit unlevel due to sidebone and we were advised by the vet to hunt him instead. He loved it and carried on until his 20 s. He was pts just before hunting last season as he had become unsafe to ride. He had bute evening before, morning and evening after.It caused no side effects either.

If the horse is happy go for it. Too many peope do not take a common sense approach to slight lameness/stiffness.
		
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## AdorableAlice (31 August 2013)

Get the gun, I have woken up stiff as a plank, normal given my age and various old injuries.  But wait, a paracetamol will let me hack  out and poo pick.  There will never be a cure for old age, but there are plenty of ways to manage and enjoy it for human and equine.


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## Christmas Crumpet (31 August 2013)

Knowing the owner as I now do, I know she and I have the same approach and thinking towards keeping an older horse running. If he hadn't come to me, the chances are he'd just be a happy hack which I'm not sure he'd enjoy that much. He was a very good horse in his time and just because he's older, doesn't mean he has switched off and is a dobbin. Far from it!! His mind is definately still very switched on. 

The dogs in some boarding kennels about a mile away were going bonkers whilst we were exercising earlier and he had his ears pricked and a little jig jog and prance about. 

I think a situation where an older horse that has done a job for many years and is now a bit stiff and creaky is given the odd bute so he can go hunting, which he loves, is a much better thing to do than a far younger horse who has all sorts of things injected to keep it sound so it can do its job. There is a difference between a bit creaky and quite clearly not sound without a lot of medical intervention.


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## spacefaer (31 August 2013)

We had a very similar situation Carolineb. We were loaned an older horse, arthritic right fore pastern. Owner said he was on cortaflex with a bute the night after hunting. He'd never have passed a 5stage vetting but he was sound enough. 

He had no job other than hunting - ex hunt horse - didn't enjoy hacking,  bucked you off if you had the temerity to suggest he could jump a coloured pole.... 

We upped the bute intake until it was no longer viable.  He spent a year in the field as a companion then was pts 

One joint supplement I would highly recommend in similar cases is Feel good 30 joint and relief.  Has all the usual suspects in joint support (msm, glucosamine etc) & devil's claw.  What I found brilliant was the boswellia in it.  Had the equivalent pain relieving effect as a sachet of bute and our boy was on it instead of long term bute for a couple of seasons.


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## Ditchjumper2 (31 August 2013)

I always think that those who hunt have a far more practicle and down to earth approach to horses that are not 100% sound but are manageable.

To keep hunting old horses, to preserve them, pick the right days for them and to save them where you can on the tougher days is an art and a skill.


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## gunnergundog (1 September 2013)

If arthritis is the problem, then consider a course of cartrophen injections......usually a course of four given at weekly intervals into the muscle so you can do yourself (assuming level of competence!!)  Made a world of difference to my old boy in his last season; he would then have a single bute the morning after.  Was on Cortavet as a supplement.  Had to modify his fitness regime in old age; most of his work was done in the school or on an all weather gallop with hacking on roads limited to walking only, unless out hunting of course when you can't avoid.


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## spacefaer (1 September 2013)

Just to add - I rarely trot on roads - if i do, it's always up hill.  The old boy was mostly ride/lead for the bulk of his fittening work as he was brilliant at it and it kept my weight off his legs. 
Getting the current herd ready,  we walk and walk and walk - and do canter work on tracks/fields.


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## Christmas Crumpet (1 September 2013)

The trotting on the roads was worrying me as he clearly finds it hard. Will use school and big field to do trotting etc. will also take him cubbing as much as possible so he's kept keen. I had thought about cartrophen. Vet mentioned it for another horse of mine a while ago. Roughly how much for a course of it?


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## Goldenstar (1 September 2013)

AdorableAlice said:



			That outlook puts the gun to a lot of horses heads.
		
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Yes it would.
I have had several old friends who have had a twilight hunting lightly with some help from bute in the past Danilon now.
I don't see any ethical problem with it what so ever .
However I would be worried to embark on a season with a horse not sound trotting on the road and I always know why I am medicating them by that I mean I have a diagnoses of their issue from the vet I don't medicate horses unless I know what's wrong with them.
Most horses love their work ( at least the ones we own do they much prefer to be on the team and out and about ) I think it's fine to help them enjoy life as they age.


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## Goldenstar (1 September 2013)

Ditchjumper2 said:



			I always think that those who hunt have a far more practicle and down to earth approach to horses that are not 100% sound but are manageable.

To keep hunting old horses, to preserve them, pick the right days for them and to save them where you can on the tougher days is an art and a skill.
		
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I really think this is the key we have meets that I would not  send an oldie to.


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## Roasted Chestnuts (1 September 2013)

No I have an oldie who for all intents and purposes is still sound UNTIL you jump him then the next day he's stiff. So I've scaled down his life. He does long hacks and common rides and is generally a good time Charlie and sets his own speeds. I could bute him and jump him but all I'd be doing us masking the issues not helping them.


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## JenHunt (1 September 2013)

preferably not... We do, however, use Naturebute for stiffness which does seem to help, and once they ease off they seem to need it less.


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## Orangehorse (1 September 2013)

Henry Blake said he had a horse that was only sound on a hunting morning!  That was in the days before bute, injections, etc.

If he can cope, then why not let him have a few enjoyable days.  You will probably know when it is getting too much.  Fellow near here had 10 seasons from 15-25 on an old eventer, lovely horse, the last 2 seasons didn't jump at all and then following the last season was PTS after a few weeks at grass.


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## chestnut cob (2 September 2013)

Last horse had ringbone and hock spavins.  Lived for his hunting but as he got older, he wasn't entirely level.  I tried not hunting him and he was bored out of his mind.  So, he had a bit of bute and hunted as much as he could manage.  7-8 days per season (plus a couple of days autumn hunting, though he was a bit of a nightmare then because he wouldn't stand still, just wanted to get going) was his maximum and I was careful about the days he did.  I tended to pick bigger jumping days because I knew there would most likely be a gate next to the fences, so I didn't need to jump him.  Didn't go out if the ground was hard, he preferred soft/ muddy ground.  Didn't jump him much, just a handful of times (if at all), and was as careful as possible about trotting on the roads.  He didn't need to be hammered around but he loved loved loved getting out - he was utterly miserable when I attempted to "retire" him to hacking, so he just needed to be carefully managed with a bit of bute and the right days.  Didn't ride the day after, usually just lunged then gave him the following day off work.

Second what Orangehorse says too - you do know when it's getting too much for them.


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## Tobiano (5 September 2013)

i must say getting older has made me much more relaxed about helping a horse deal with stiffness with a bit of danilon - used to think it was the work of the devil but now I agree with those who say better to let them enjoy doing what they love even if they need help to do it.  Done responsibly I would not have a problem.


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## PolarSkye (5 September 2013)

Ditchjumper2 said:



			I always think that those who hunt have a far more practicle and down to earth approach to horses that are not 100% sound but are manageable.

To keep hunting old horses, to preserve them, pick the right days for them and to save them where you can on the tougher days is an art and a skill.
		
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This . . . all day long.

P


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## AdorableAlice (5 September 2013)

tobiano said:



			i must say getting older has made me much more relaxed about helping a horse deal with stiffness with a bit of danilon - used to think it was the work of the devil but now I agree with those who say better to let them enjoy doing what they love even if they need help to do it.  Done responsibly I would not have a problem.
		
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Absolutely, My old boy and I had many a good day, he was fuelled with bute, oats, peas, chaff and sugar beet mollassed of course.  I was fuelled with paracetomol, mars bars and sloe gin.  Neither of were capable of jumping more than 3' so we always waited for the tops to be knocked out of the hedges, but we had plenty of good safe fun.


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## Amymay (5 September 2013)

Ditchjumper2 said:



			I always think that those who hunt have a far more practicle and down to earth approach to horses that are not 100% sound but are manageable.

To keep hunting old horses, to preserve them, pick the right days for them and to save them where you can on the tougher days is an art and a skill.
		
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A really interesting post.  And one I completely agree with.


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## skint1 (15 September 2013)

My daughter took my 17yo ISH mare hound exercising/cubbing/autumn hunting/whatever you want to call it today. We have her on a joint supplement (Premierflex Plus) anyway but didn't give her any bute before or after, I wanted to see how she coped on the day and how she is tomorrow. Then we will decide if she can do more. She used to hunt at one stage of her life and when she heard the huntsman's horn she was so happy, had no issue keeping up and had a lovely time. Our plan is to only take her on hunts suitable for a novice with optional fences, maybe once or twice a month, ground permitting. I think providing the horse is otherwise sound and you weren't expecting them to do loads it wouldn't be unethical to give an older horse bute before or after a reasonable day's hunting.


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## turkana (16 September 2013)

I also don't see a problem with helping an older horse to do a bit of hunting, if they enjoy it.

The last time I hunted my oldie, who's 20, I was commended on my bravery for hunting such a hot youngster! I replied "she's 20 & old enough to know better!"


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## skint1 (16 September 2013)

Just to report, took my mare out for a short walking hack today to see how she was feeling, marched all the way round happy as larry. T'would seem I have lost my horse for the winter    I think they'll be with the Berks & Bucks Draghounds, they were very kind and welcoming to my daughter, horse and myself


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## chestnut cob (30 September 2013)

TarrSteps said:



			Why is that different?  There hasn't been anything proven to permanently reverse the arthritic process - if there was, most of the people and horses I know would be on it and someone would be getting very, very rich!
		
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This.  All we can do is hope that we *may* be able to do something which will slow it down, and make the horse comfortable along the way as best we can.




			I don't understand why people freak out at a measured amount of bute used sensibly to keep an ageing horse comfortable when they would happily take an ibuprophen for their own aches and pains.
		
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People (some, anyway), IME, get rather evangelical about horses working with no "medical" help whatsoever.  It's as though it is somehow cruelty to help your horse be more comfortable doing his job.  There is a world of a difference between giving an older, creaky horse something to help him out, and giving a lame competition horse enough bute to mask something serious.  I think every farrier I've ever know would be at a loss if they couldn't take paracetamol/ ibuprofen so why is it any difference for horses?!




			I'm also unclear why it's "okay" to use all of the other options at our disposal - injections, neutraceticals, herbal supplements, surgery etc. and not an option that has been used for decades and decades, with known risks and side effects people can watch out for. If anyone thinks the other options don't have downsides, they are kidding themselves.  Life is always risk and reward.
		
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The neutraceuticals thing is interesting...  these are UNPROVEN products.  Pharmaceuticals have been extensively tested before release to market and they have to be prescribed by your vet, a qualified and experienced medical professional.  When you give the horse (or take them yourself) neutraceuticals, you've no idea really what you are giving them and how they may interact with any other medicines.  Or whether you're just pi££ing £20 down the toilet!  The world is full of anecdotes claiming that apple cider vinegar works, or this product, or that.  But they're just, as far as I can see, based on someone saying their horse seemed better.


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## TarrSteps (30 September 2013)

There is also a possible placebo effect at work. There was a recent study involving a blind procedure where owners gave their self reported headshakers a supplement suggested to ameliorate the condition. In fact the supplement was an inert substance and could not have any effect, but a considerable percentage of the owners reported that it improved their horses!

You have to wonder how often that happens with pain relief. The owner "thinks" the horse is better. In some cases this might then lead to doing more with the horse and, since there is no question exercise helps keep moderately affected horses sound, they then actually see a measurable improvement.  In fact it is a common practice in physiotherapy now to give pain relief to aid return to function, address proprioceptive disorders etc. This doesn't mean dope the horse up and have at it any old way. It means controlling pain and inflammation can actually be beneficial to prolonging function and comfort in an ageing horse.

Pain relief for high end competition horses is a different subject, in part because there are ethical issues that simply do not apply in noncompetitive situations.


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## chestnut cob (30 September 2013)

TarrSteps said:



			In fact it is a common practice in physiotherapy now to give pain relief to aid return to function, address proprioceptive disorders etc. This doesn't mean dope the horse up and have at it any old way. It means controlling pain and inflammation can actually be beneficial to prolonging function and comfort in an ageing horse.
		
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I know of a horse currently being given bute/ pain relief in order to get it working through some physio stretches it is finding difficult.  This is in conjunction with vet and physio; the horse is sore, struggling to do the stretches it needs to because it is sore, so the bute allows the horse to be worked in a different way and then hopefully learn that way of moving (not explained v well by me but you know what I mean).

Pain relief and medication has its time and place.  To simply dismiss it all as though owners are acting cruelly is nonsense.  The horse feels stiff so you ease that stiffness with medication, the horse finds work easier and is able to do more, which in itself continues to improve the stiffness.  Giving mine bute daily didn't mean he was suddenly fit and able to jump around 1m20 tracks or do a Med DR test.  It's not a miracle cure, it's a way to help alleviate the stiffness and make the horse feel more comfortable.


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## Christmas Crumpet (1 October 2013)

I always think that hunting people are the most practical and sensible people around!! Horse is on a danilon a day at nighttime and he feels far better than he did when he arrived. I am sensible about how he is exercised. No trotting on the roads unless my house is on fire etc etc. He is so happy to be hunting and clearly doesn't find it hard work although I am realistic about how much he will be able to do and will not push him further than he is happy to go.


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## skint1 (1 October 2013)

This is the approach we are taking with my horse, I've never seen her so happy as when she has been out with the hunt, even if she sticks to the back and avoids the jumps, she loves it


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## Christmas Crumpet (1 October 2013)

Hmm I've tried the "oh look there's a jump, well we'll just go round" option but I don't seem to have a choice about whether we jump it or not. And he takes strides out at the silliest of things. Whilst he continues to do that, he can go hunting!! And if a bute/danilon a day means that he can then brilliant!!


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## Amymay (1 October 2013)

carolineb said:



			Hmm I've tried the "oh look there's a jump, well we'll just go round" option but I don't seem to have a choice about whether we jump it or not. And he takes strides out at the silliest of things. Whilst he continues to do that, he can go hunting!! And if a bute/danilon a day means that he can then brilliant!!
		
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Fabulous!


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## skint1 (1 October 2013)

Yeah, apparently my mare was mad keen for the jumps but was only permitted to do low ones. I'm considering giving her a danilon the day after next time she goes, she went this Sunday, had yesterday off and when I hacked her this morning she seemed a bit stiff on the way out but was stomping home as normal


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