# Electric Spurs, Rapping, Smacking....Where does cruelty begin?



## Agent XXX999 (30 May 2007)

Having read the post below about polling/rapping, I was wondering what everyones views are on limitations with dicipline? 

For instance, if I feel it needs to be done, I will smack my horse hard to correct him (i.e. when an old horse started to nap I ended up lashing her, cruel however she NEVER did it again) 

I would never wack a pole into my horses shins, however know people that have done, usually very old school people. I also know people that put brillo pads and the like under tendon boots, and use electric spurs....yes, electric spurs...

Can I point out they are associates not friends and I do not agree with the methods that they are using. 

So....where does dicipline stop and cruelty begin?


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## XmisshorsestyleX (30 May 2007)

ELECTRIC SPURS...

Where do these people purchase such an item???


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## kayleigh_and_rocky (30 May 2007)

I think if its a behavioural thing - eg smacking a napping horse thats in a potentially dangerous situation (and noone can deny half a ton of napping horse is dangerous) then its necessary (not all the time but im talking if no other option)

However rapping is done to improve a horses jump i believe?  No need for it.  I've seen a beautiful horse that wouldnt hurt a fly be sent psychotic in one session where he was rapped every time.  I will not tolerate it in any circumstance.

And electric spurs????blimey!! Never heard of them!


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## jumpthemoon (30 May 2007)

I think our horsemanship has developed enough for us not to need to use these awful methods. Personally, i feel that a whip should be used as an extension of your leg aid and not a beating stick. Also, if a horse is not doing as you ask, 90% of the time you are not asking correctly, so should look for better ways to communicate with your horse - not just beat it! Electric spurs? these people obviously are too lazy to train their horses and should be banned from keeping them!


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## Paint it Lucky (30 May 2007)

Why would you put brillo pads under boots?


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## Agent XXX999 (30 May 2007)

They are real, I have seen them be used at a BSJA show! 

And yes I did complain.....


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## Agent XXX999 (30 May 2007)

I dont know if it is brillo, but that spikey wire stuff, so if they hit the pole it spikes them.


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## polyphonic (30 May 2007)

i try my hardest not to give flint a smack, but do when he needs it...takes a lot though, but as for electrics spurs and rapping? sickening


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## jumpthemoon (30 May 2007)

What's wrong with these people?


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## Tempi (30 May 2007)

surely it would be spiking them constantly if its underneath the boot?  As otherwise it would have to be done up so loosly that it wouldnt stay on


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## Agent XXX999 (30 May 2007)

Dont ask me.....just seen it being done, I havent a clue!


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## Nailed (30 May 2007)

if i horse takes the pee.. it gets told.. the same when working wtih young horses.. When you dealing with 17 hh or 4 year old thats untouched.. as some point it will require a sever reprimand. If im honest.. i dont have a problem with this, if it is short and forgotten about straight away..

to a degree, rapping if done properly is also not cruel. Hum.. electric spurs.. no .. electric lung whip.. seen it used.. and the horse can to no harm, was not frightened and was going forwards in three secions from the leg
Lou x


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## jumpthemoon (30 May 2007)

If a horse is definitely being downright naughty then I don't have a problem with a single smack with a stick, but people over use it IMO. There are other ways to show your horse he is doing the wrong thing rather than just hitting him - isn't this the same principle for children now - we don't hit them anymore because we have developed the art of communication? Not that I think a slap at an appropriate time is wrong, but again, people get carried away.....


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## DollyPentreath (30 May 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
to a degree, rapping if done properly is also not cruel. Hum.. electric spurs.. no .. electric lung whip.. seen it used.. and the horse can to no harm, was not frightened and was going forwards in three secions from the leg

[/ QUOTE ] 







And electric lunge whip


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## KateStartin (30 May 2007)

I ride horses who have in the past had electric spurs on them, they are the most difficult, dangerous horses i have ever ridden, it is disgusting and comes from total ignorance from people who should make it their business to know better 
	
	
		
		
	


	





The difference between these horses and the just backed 3 year olds is huge, the 3 yos are happy easy horses, i love riding them. The really sad thing is im sure that is how the others started out as well.


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## polyphonic (30 May 2007)

rapping if done properly? so is there some work shop we can all go to so we know how to use the show jump pole correctly?! 
	
	
		
		
	


	





its not neccasairy (sp)


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## jumpthemoon (30 May 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
 it is disgusting and comes from total ignorance from people who should make it their business to know better 
	
	
		
		
	


	




 .............
The really sad thing is im sure that is how the others started out as well. 
	
	
		
		
	


	





[/ QUOTE ]

I second that!


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## icemaiden113 (30 May 2007)

Guess that was unlucky for you as i used to ride a numder of showjumpers that had been ridden in electric spurs. They were all very well behaved and very responsive to the leg. These sort of things happen more than you know! And not all people are cruel but some of it works (wrapping)


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## kayleigh_and_rocky (30 May 2007)

Sorry i must disagree - i do not agree with rapping FULL STOP there is absolutely NO need for it - it is just done out of pure brute strength and drive to win prizes rather than listening and caring about the horse.  I'm sorry but no one will EVER convince me the rapping is fine 'if done correct' because it is not.


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## icemaiden113 (30 May 2007)

I never said it was fine or that i agreed with it. Just that it happens a lot and that it works!


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## kayleigh_and_rocky (30 May 2007)

Ah i see - yes unfortunately it happens a HUGE amount - though i would argue whether it works or not - i've seen two very genuine horses both give up jumping due to being rapped, they just completely gave up the ghost and wouldnt jump a cross pole (one of these horses infact did the ladies derby at hickstead) i found it very sad.


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## charlie76 (30 May 2007)

I have known horses that have been rapped, the tell tale sign is that they are scared to jump if some one is stood next to the fence. If the horse isn't careful enough then use exercises such as step fences, grids, pole work and v poles. Rapping is not acceptable IMO(neither are electric spurs!)


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## kayleigh_and_rocky (30 May 2007)

Yes well said!


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## jumpthemoon (30 May 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
I never said it was fine or that i agreed with it. Just that it happens a lot and that it works! 

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm sure it does work in many cases - that doesn't make it right (not a dig at you - just an observation)


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## Coffee_Bean (30 May 2007)

don't know what rapping is 
	
	
		
		
	


	








 But i think if a horse does something particularly bad, it should get a smack. Usually i resort to growling at her, but if she tries to take a chunk out of me, she'll get a slap. *runs away and hides* But electric spurs are sick.


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## severnmiles (30 May 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
surely it would be spiking them constantly if its underneath the boot?  As otherwise it would have to be done up so loosly that it wouldnt stay on  
	
	
		
		
	


	





[/ QUOTE ]

Mum knew of an old Major who would put gorse in bandages to make a horse sprightly and jump high.

I only agree with smacking a horse if its misehaving - napping or what have you.

Don't agree with electric spurs, rapping e.t.c


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## mat (30 May 2007)

Just a question...

Would you rather:

a) A horse is rapped (the pole raised by someone slightly as the horse takes off), the effect being that the horse jumps higher next time as it thinks it miss judged the height....

b) Someone riding a horse really strongly into the bottom of the fence, forcing it to hit the front/back rail, the effect being it hits its legs hard so it is scared next time it comes around to the fence, and jumps higher...


Which one is more dangerous??

I am not going to say either one is right, or I use either methods to get a horse to jump more carefully, but one of them, which I think is slightly less cruel can quite rightly not be practised in the warm up... the other... can be, and frequently is ..

I think that from what I know.. yes gridwork etc can make the horse more athletic and flexible etc. and quicker to pick up its legs.. but surely there are some horses that just dont care if they hit a pole?


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## severnmiles (30 May 2007)

A


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## polyphonic (30 May 2007)

but if its not too carefull with his legs and you want to do well, have you not got the wrong horse?


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## severnmiles (30 May 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
but if its not too carefull with his legs and you want to do well, have you not got the wrong horse? 

[/ QUOTE ]

Much better option is C - sell the horse and buy one that has springs in its feet


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## mat (30 May 2007)

C-- good answer lol!


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## jumpthemoon (30 May 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
Just a question...

Would you rather:

a) A horse is rapped (the pole raised by someone slightly as the horse takes off), the effect being that the horse jumps higher next time as it thinks it miss judged the height....

b) Someone riding a horse really strongly into the bottom of the fence, forcing it to hit the front/back rail, the effect being it hits its legs hard so it is scared next time it comes around to the fence, and jumps higher...


[/ QUOTE ]

Quite frankly I would rather neither! I hope you are not saying that these are the only options we have to get our horses to jump correctly? They may be both practised but that does not mean that either of them should be!


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## mat (30 May 2007)

hmm.. read the bottom of the post...


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## sleepingdragon10 (30 May 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
Just a question...

Would you rather:

a) A horse is rapped (the pole raised by someone slightly as the horse takes off), the effect being that the horse jumps higher next time as it thinks it miss judged the height....

b) Someone riding a horse really strongly into the bottom of the fence, forcing it to hit the front/back rail, the effect being it hits its legs hard so it is scared next time it comes around to the fence, and jumps higher...


Which one is more dangerous??

I am not going to say either one is right, or I use either methods to get a horse to jump more carefully, but one of them, which I think is slightly less cruel can quite rightly not be practised in the warm up... the other... can be, and frequently is ..

I think that from what I know.. yes gridwork etc can make the horse more athletic and flexible etc. and quicker to pick up its legs.. but surely there are some horses that just dont care if they hit a pole? 

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, I take your point, but surely it's the careful horse that you want as a show jumper...the one that doesn't care so much is never going to make it to the top, and if you have to resort to rapping a horse to get it to pick it's feet up then maybe, just maybe, the horse is doing the wrong job?


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## kayleigh_and_rocky (30 May 2007)

OOOOORRRRR we could make the riders jump the jumps and see how they like being rapped/jabbed with electric spurs - could provide some amusing entertainment


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## jumpthemoon (30 May 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
hmm.. read the bottom of the post... 

[/ QUOTE ]

Err... oh yes  
	
	
		
		
	


	





Sorry, I just think there are a lot of people out there who think the only way to get what you want out of a horse is to cause it pain. Not saying that you are one of these people **ducks**

I would go for option C every time


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## mat (30 May 2007)

Let me clarify... 

"surely some horses just dont care if they hit a pole"

Meaning.. rapping would make no difference, as the horse wouldnt care if it had a pole whacking its legs... eg. what would be the point.. lol


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## sleepingdragon10 (30 May 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
OOOOORRRRR we could make the riders jump the jumps and see how they like being rapped/jabbed with electric spurs - could provide some amusing entertainment 
	
	
		
		
	


	





[/ QUOTE ]

Hmm, a new sport in the making perhaps?


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## sammy69 (30 May 2007)

people used to put hedgehog skins over jump poles so if horses hit them they would get spiked(works same as under boots i imagine)


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## kayleigh_and_rocky (30 May 2007)

Hehe and think of all those cute male bums popping over the jumps


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## mat (30 May 2007)

I had a show jumper once that I purchased from a very well known show jumper. He had started his career very well but then when he got to 1.30m level he started to get 4 faults.. 8 faults etc. etc.

They used all of the "tricks" to get him to be more carefull and consistent. In the end they sold him to me as they had completely blown his brains..

I managed to get him calm, and competed him to 1.25 level, but had to accept that double clears where few and far between.

Anyway last year he had a tendon op. and when he started work again he didnt feel right in his back.. I got him checked and it turns out he had kissing spine, which the vet said had been developing for the last 5/6 yrs! 
	
	
		
		
	


	





The poor bugger had been tortured for all that time with the rider punishing him, when he was in real discomfort when he jumped some fences! 
	
	
		
		
	


	





He is retired in my field now, but it has made me very wary of "forcing" a horse to jump in a way that it finds difficult or unnatural


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## severnmiles (30 May 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
Hehe and think of all those cute male bums popping over the jumps  
	
	
		
		
	


	





[/ QUOTE ]

Cute??  Name us one cute sj'er, they're either overweight or rough as a badgers behind!   
	
	
		
		
	


	












  Waits for the backlash from Rambo


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## kayleigh_and_rocky (30 May 2007)

I don't know - tim gredley isnt that bad?  lol

Bbmat - thats a really sad story


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## mat (30 May 2007)

He is happy now.. and he taught me lots! 

I liked Porraick Kelly.. does he still jump?


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## jumpthemoon (30 May 2007)

Bbmat - it is so sad when things like this happen. At least you had the brains / compassion to investigate. 

PS. Am now even more sorry for jumping to conclusions earlier


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## mat (30 May 2007)

No prob!


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## SSM (30 May 2007)

I will admit my first thought was electric spurs - where can I get a pair 
	
	
		
		
	


	
















  Please don't all shoot me down at once I did see the error of my ways!


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## severnmiles (30 May 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
Bbmat - thats a really sad story 
	
	
		
		
	


	





[/ QUOTE ]

Ditto


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## Boodle (30 May 2007)

Bbmat - Urgh.. thats so sad 
	
	
		
		
	


	





Im of the opinion, as most are, that rapping, electric spurs etc are cruel and should not be used in any circumstances.

The lengths some people will go to for some short lived glory is beyond me...


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## dieseldog (30 May 2007)

So another question.  Would you wedge a pole in so it can't fall if they hit it and gives them a shock so next time they jump bigger?


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## kayleigh_and_rocky (30 May 2007)

No i wouldnt - surely thats excessively dangerous and will only cause the horse to fall?


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## mickey (30 May 2007)

Some of these techniques sound crazy -
I mean, take 'electric spurs'. Don't you think it would be rather alarming if someone got after you with electric spurs, firstly when they wanted to apply them, and secondly when they were applying them because they weren't skilled enough to hold them away from your sides.
And then, if this alarm and confusion was not enough, as you approach the 'high jump' just as you take off it is raised so you can't possibly clear it. Followed by the obvious collision and soreness.
I think these techniques are extreme and unfair.
I would prefer that option 1 was to try to understand the horse in question and use my brain in coming to some sensible methods of correction. And yes, sometimes it is reasonable to admit that the horse just is not capable (for whatever reason) of what is being asked.
It's meant to be a partnership, not a situation where one party plays tricks (in the case of rapping) or using extreme methods on the other.


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## dieseldog (30 May 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
No i wouldnt - surely thats excessively dangerous and will only cause the horse to fall? 

[/ QUOTE ]

But you do cross country - whats the difference?  At least if you smacked a showjump really hard the wings would fall over, whereas XC the only thing going to fall is your horse.


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## kayleigh_and_rocky (30 May 2007)

Well i guess it depends on the size of the showjump as well.  Showjumps tend to go a lot higher than XC fences (id love to see someone tackle a course of 1.60 xc fences!!)
Plus XC its not purposeful - it is not on in any way shape or form to PURPOSEFULLY hurt or hinder a horse to try and 'improve' its performance.


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## mickey (30 May 2007)

Yes, there lies the difference - In the case of XC you are not deliberately tricking the horse and giving it no chance like you are if you physically ram a pole into it. You are giving it a fair chance to assess and jump the obstacle. If you ram a pole into it there is only one outcome - the horse gets rammed by a pole. At least it has some chance of jumping it in XC.


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## dieseldog (30 May 2007)

I'm not saying that you move the pole whilst the horse is jumping you just make it more difficult for the pole to fall, or in otherwords use heavy poles

How does a horse know the first time you take it XC schooling that the jump isn't going to fall down?  Should we never take horses XC schooling because of this, or should they learn to pick their feet up a little higher?


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## mickey (30 May 2007)

Sorry - I misinterpreted your original post.
With XC the horse has to jump the obstacle as seen. And, yes, the fence is unlikely to collapse/fall down if the horse hits it. Fair enough teach them to pick their legs up by using heavier poles, giving them every chance of jumping by presenting and preparing them correctly. But purposefully moving poles when the horse has taken off or deliberately causing undue pain and discomfort is a different matter.


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## icemaiden113 (30 May 2007)

Thats okay i take your point! (not offended!) again mine is just an observation!


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## vanessahook (30 May 2007)

I am all for discipline when it is called for but not beating because the rider can't get what they want from a horse and is angry with themselves! I can't see what cruel methods get out of horses apart from creating an atmosphere of fear. This achieves nothing. If the horse is unsuitable for the job then don't ask it to do it!
Take my mare for instance, she should be a dressage machine but she simply isn't! I have tried for so long and haven't resorted to cruelty but there have been moments when i know she has had a smack because i have lost my temper. I have taken a step back recently and i know her heart isn't in the job and thats fine (i hate my job too!!) so she will soon be leaving the competition yard and going out to grass while i get over my disappointment and move on. 
If you are resorting to cruely to get "the best" out of your horse you need to have a serious look inside yourself and ask yourself whether you would carry on trying if your boss came in every day and zapped you with an electric shock!


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## Gentle_Warrior (30 May 2007)

I know a friend who will smack the horse she has on the neck when it head shakes, personally this irritates the hell out of me.  I am awaiting the day when I grab that whip and use it on her !!!!!!!  it will happen !!!!  I generally hate whips, more so on the neck, there is no muscle.  I carry a short whip with a fillet string attached at the end on my horse.  Works wonders, more effective than beating, and he can be a lazy so and so !!!!!  even works when he has a paddy and naps !!

it irritates and does in no way hurt.


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## ThomasTank (30 May 2007)

If I am holding a whip in my hand, I cant even get on my horse !! He is also headshy. 
God know what happened to him in his previous life ( before I owned him) but I shudder to think.
Therefore I never even ride with a whip


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## josephinebutter2 (30 May 2007)

I always find that when a horse is happy and balanced over small fences and gridwork, take him out and do some XC fences - go hunting - the horses learn to enjoy jumping and it teaches them to pick their feet up as their are no poles to fall down.

If they don't care about knocking their legs over solid fences, they never will over SJ's and are perhaps better suited to a different career.


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## greynightmare (30 May 2007)

I'm a fairly novice owner/rider and I'm still learning, but my boy is 16.3hh so quite big and would smack him once with whip if reqd, but I like to think that I have been to build a bond with my horse by being positive, like praising him when he's doing what I want him to do rather than punishing him when he's doing wrong, its worked for me, they would rather please their mummies.


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## PapaFrita (30 May 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
Cute??  Name us one cute sj'er, they're either overweight or rough as a badgers behind!    

[/ QUOTE ]
OOh a challenge (Although as this is a serious post I will come back after work and reply properly) 
Some fit SJers 
	
	
		
		
	


	










and.. (nice hands!)


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## PapaFrita (30 May 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
If I am holding a whip in my hand, I cant even get on my horse !!

[/ QUOTE ]
Antifaz is the same. I don't need a whip on him or PF and Former Instructor (who is not afraid to give a horse a hiding) agrees neither horse should EVER be hit.
Go figure, eh?


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## brighteyes (30 May 2007)

It's him again - the one with the lovely hands!!!!  _* faints *_


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## druid (30 May 2007)

QR - 

I had a well known eventer at Punchestown bragging to me very publicly about his new mare....who had 4-faultitis so they were "training" it over a 1.40m set of planks reinforced with "rebar" (steel bar)


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## Jellicle (30 May 2007)

Gosh, he looks like something out of a Jilly Cooper novel....drool....


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## FRESHMAN (30 May 2007)

That is a very good point DD. Whichever way you look at it it amounts to exactly the same thing regarding a "fixed fence"
I really do find these topics amazing, most of the showjumpers I know wouldnt bother wasting time with something that is not careful enough to 'want' to jump a fence of it's own accord. Are we sure we are not talking Dealers tricks here?
Because to me all this treatment will do is give a quick solution not a long term one. Also it's a hell of a risk to a valuable horse, not to mention a rider that relies on competing week in week out.
I think there are better ways to remind a horse of it's job without resorting to such tricks. Anyone who goes as far as electic spurs or anything similiar is on a very slippery slope with nowhere else to go. That one is the lowest of the low. If I ever caught anyone using them I think I would finish up on a life sentence for murder/manslaughter (if I got lucky)


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## PapaFrita (31 May 2007)

There's a chap out here who is well known for rapping his horse (soundly) and he has alot of horses for sale, so in fact I would say yes, it IS a dealer's trick.
Even if a horse were not for sale, a professional rider will be wanting to win so his or her 'stock' doesn't plummet, so I can see WHY they do it. However I agree there are better (though perhaps not such quick) ways to get a horse to jump that little bit higher. Ultimately though, I think that a horse whose heart isn't in it is better suited to a different line of work.


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## FRESHMAN (31 May 2007)

But if you are a professional &amp; want to keep your horses on the Rd then I do not see how rapping &amp; the likes will work long term. A dealer may use this so that the horse gives a flash for a potential customer. But you can not do this week in &amp; week out &amp; get any kind of result. Eventually any horse with a brain will tell you to F*** Off.  I agree wholeheartedly if a horse does not want to do a job, then let them go do something else.
It is madness to try &amp; force a horse into something that it is not able to do willingly.


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## PapaFrita (31 May 2007)

I'm as baffled as you are! Perhaps pros aren't all that interested in keeping a horse jumping long term? Perhaps the objective is to get results as quickly as possible for owners/sponsors, then to sell as soon as horse shows signs of waning. Or perhaps they only rap occasionally to keep a horse 'alert' (for want of a better word)? Riders here have told me that all their horses are for sale all the time; you never know when they could get hurt, so it's not really in their best interests to hang on to a horse indefinitely (still getting my head round that!)
What I want to know is why you would buy a horse from someone who is _known_ to rap them????


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## Tia (31 May 2007)

You know what?  The longer I am on this planet the less I tolerate horses who won't do the job I am looking for them to do......so if they don't like/enjoy/want/are incompetent in doing the job I wish them for, then I sell them!

I honestly don't know why some people bother with horses that seem to give them so much blooming grief and it's quite obvious with some people that they and their horse just do not get on.....and yet they plug away for, often, years and never really get anywhere fast.

I don't hit or smack or rap or use any types of spurs - I will give them a thump if they are badly behaved on the ground once in a while however generally I never hit them when they are being ridden because my lot don't need to be hit, they're all pretty compliant to be honest so I just have to show them things over again if they don't get it first or second time around.   

I do think if you have to resort to all the things mentioned above then surely it is plain to see that the partnership is NOT working.  Either you need to go back a step in their training so that they do figure out what is wanted of them or they are just not cut out for the job, so might as well get rid of them to someone who will appreciate them for what they are.

I have quite high standards though so if my lot weren't to get up to scratch then I won't bother with trying to convince them otherwise because there is always another horse out there who WILL do as asked.


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