# AES Grading - Comments please



## AndyPandy (5 November 2006)

I guess this post might belong in the breeding forum, but I wanted to see what everyone thought.
I went to an Anglo European Studbook (AES) stallion grading on Friday. I was just observing, but I was utterly disgusted by the way it was run. I just wanted to know what people thought about this, and if they knew anything about other studbooks in this country, or had any opinions themselves? I have listed a few things which I noticed below:

*The event was poorly run. It was held at Solihull, which is a great facility, but the organisation was so poor! They got further and further behind throughout the day. The show jumping course was not pre-planned, and was guessed by a group of people who didn't look like they knew what they were doing. Some young dressage horses were given FEI tests to learn, and were then told (as they entered the ring to perform the test) that they should do a freestyle routine (bearing in mind that these horses where 3-4 years old). Noone who was showing a stallion there seemed to know what was going on, as the event deviated more and more from the "strict timetable" that had been sent out.

*Everyone was judged by three SJ judges. So despite the fact that some stallions were trying to get graded for dressage, no specific dressage judge was present. The judges also showed a great deal of bias, being chummy with some owners (whose stallions graded) and nasty to others (whose stallions did not), both before and after the event.

*Nobody could work out why the horses that graded did it was clear to many that some absolutely stunning horses with a lot of talent were not graded, while others, who were OK, but often conformationally incorrect, graded easily. It almost seemed like the whole process was rather random.

Basically, the whole event was a joke, as far as I could see. I mean, what is the point of having a stallion graded if the grading body is poorly run? Surely that makes the grading worthless, and the status of graded stallions rather meaningless?

Anyway, as I say, I was an impartial observer, but I saw so many lovely, talented, conformationally exceptional horses on Friday, but few if any of them were graded by the AES. Any comments would be appreciated, as I am considering writing to H&amp;H - How can the UK expect to compete with European-bred horses, when the standards of excellence in this country are so woefully low and random?


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## Ferdinase514 (5 November 2006)

Why don't you write the the head of the grading society and let them know what you observed. Might be interesting for them to gain some feedback from an impartial observer.


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## AndyPandy (5 November 2006)

I think I will. I do want to hear some other opinions, comments from forum users too though...


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## TURBOBERT (5 November 2006)

How interesting - do let us know what they say..........


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## SJFAN (5 November 2006)

Surprised to hear this. I watched an AES grading show for show jumpers only at Towerlands a few years ago and it was very well run. The judges gave their opinions over the PA.


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## sherwood' (5 November 2006)

AES is a studbook which i have little regard for.  Complete joke to be called a studbook in the first place IMO.  I have my reasons but cant say on here!


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## Stacey (5 November 2006)

hi 
I am so glad an unbias person was watching.
I took my 3 yr old there, first time we had gone to a grading,
I had a very late entry and the lady managed to slip me in which i was very grateful for.
However, we have to have the horses 5* vetted, not one judge looked at my boys legs, confirmation ect, 
which was very annoying as i was told to be ready at 9.15 and didnt go in til the end of all the 3 yr olds.
So then the loose jumping, some of the horses wouldnt even go into the fences as they were trying to get out of this tiny pen they had set up.
The corners were so tight it was differecult for them to get the horse round to the fences.
Again Kane (my horse) went last and the judges did not even care he was there. They had obviously already made their minds up. 
The helpers were cracking the whips which scared nearly all the horses.
I just felt they had made their minds up before even looking at the horse.
One judge, who i won't name, was very rude, saying he couldnt be bothered to see anymore.

After paying £141 just for the entry i excepted to be told why my horse hadn't passed but we had no score sheets which i think is awful.
We all paid alot of money to be there and we dont even get told why are horses are "not good enough" to be aes stallions.
i have emailed aes and will phone tomorrow and keep phoning until they send my score sheet.
We are entitled to know the reasons, tht is why we paid this amount of money.

I agree with the comment on judges being bias, they were so obvious it was unreal, at least try and hide the fact.
And i would be very grateful for you to write to h&amp;h and maybe the stud, not like they would care anyway.

thankyou for bringing this up, i was worried i was mad and being bias.


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## AndyPandy (7 November 2006)

Well, I've written to H&amp;H, and I e-mailed a copy of the letter to the editor. Haven't heard anything back yet (I will let you know if I do), and I'm not sure that they will publish it, but it's worth a go!

I think the more comments that appear on here, the more topical it may become, which might increase the chance of it being published. So any comments are welcome!

Jamie


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## samp (7 November 2006)

I have heard that these gradings are very biased. Sometimes it is about their ability rather than their conformation. Howver in saying that to not even give people a look in, which is disgusting.


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## loopylucifer (8 November 2006)

i have to say i have worked on several grading for the AES a couple of years ago. and they were a complete nightmare to do for a start you have anything from 15- 25 colts and stallions in one place thats enough to cause havoc on its own! 
i can not comment on the grading you went to as i was not there and havent been to a grading as i said for at leat two years. but they always used to have at least one prue dressge jugde and then two or three jugdes form mainly a sj background. all the judges were top of there field athough i did feel at times some could be a little to harsh to the owners.
the grading are far form biased took three colts (breed by high up person in AES) as three year olds were thier to be graded and two failed the other was lisened (? from what i can rember.). they do have very strict standards it goes by temperament, conformation, past history (older horse) performance on that day. many owners feel they have a perfect stallion (especially if home breed!) how ever from the grading i saw many horses that didn't get though it was because they simply didn't have that x factor which for an approved stallion is essential however nice it may seem i know it sounds harsh but they have some of the best stallions in europe registed with them and thats why. if you feel you have a problem with the way it was run or the judging then contact them directly and voice your concerns with them i am sure they will listen to what you have to and answer any questions for you. they have a web site with contact details on.


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## AndyPandy (10 November 2006)

Thanks for those comments. As I said, I did not,  and will not, take anything for grading with the AES, so the matter of "my stallion is the best" did not come into it. What concerns me about the number of European graded stallions that have also been graded by the AES is this: I have heard, from a number of dutch sources that the AES has in the past attended gradings in Europe and offered immediate graded status to anything and everything of any quality. This does not make the AES a good stud book, it simply means that they are attempting to make themselves look good by having "world class stallions" on their books. Not a very meaningful marker of a good studbook.


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## dieseldog (10 November 2006)

Here are the  results .

A couple of horses by Arko got approved, one owned by Nick Skelton the other Keely Durham and John whittaker - She might have a Welham replacement there.


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## Agent XXX999 (10 November 2006)

I know of a very nice stallion that went to be graded as a 4 year old. He preformed impeccably apart from in the warm up show jumping, where as the jumps were 1.20 (for a 4 year old) he backed off a couple. In the actual grading he did a clear round, very nicely, but the judges (who were understood by a German friend) Didnt grade him because of the warm up (which they werent supposed to be judging on) 
A complete nightmare.and the organisation was not very good either. It did come across as quite who you know ish.
He got graded the  following year!


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## zoeshiloh (11 November 2006)

Very interesting as was thinking of grading my boy with them when the time comes, think I will sitck with BWBS now though


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## magic104 (13 November 2006)

The year that Jumbo graded as a BSH at Stoneleigh was very well run.  This was also the case this year at the Trakhner show at Addington.  The judges gave their comments at the end for both the mares &amp; stallions.  Both these shows were well run, so perhaps they can show the AES how to do it!!


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## AndyPandy (15 November 2006)

So do people reckon my letter will get published?!


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## susan_w (15 November 2006)

I suspect not Andy Pandy.

Although I have spoken to some other people who were there, and they were pretty much in agreement with you about the way that things were done.

Try again next year, and put it down to experience.


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## Maesfen (15 November 2006)

It's interesting what you have said re the gradings and I do hope the letter gets published although I won't hold mt breath!  Perhaps a letter to the columnist in H&amp;H might go further to bring it to anyone's attention?

I also know of a cracking successful sport stallion that passed his two preliminary gradings hands down; had also some promising stock on the ground.  He spent the winter doing dressage/hunting and consequently was quite fit for the final 'permanent' grading.  He performed brilliantly, looked superb, as sound as a pound, everything went right for him -  but guess what he failed on?! 
	
	
		
		
	


	




 - he was too lean! 
	
	
		
		
	


	




  He was a fit horse for goodness sake, he shouldn't have looked like a bullock, didn't they know what a fit horse should look like?!  No one could believe it because he had been head and shoulders above everything else conformation and ability wise that day and the owner came away with a very sour taste in his mouth to say the least and several pounds out of pocket to add insult to injury.  Needless to say other stallions that were graded that day all belonged to 'faces' but that stallion is performing well and producing superb athletic youngsters as well and that is only one stallion owner who is now convinced he will never try another grading again with anything.


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## dieseldog (15 November 2006)

Too lean!!!!  at least nothing was hidden by fat.

The problem is that if you want to BSJA a stallion, even if you don't want to breed from it, the reg fee is £500 per year unless he is graded by a studbook that includes jumping in its grading.  Once graded the membership drops down to the standard rate (£64)


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## sallyf (15 November 2006)

This is one of the reasons why i decline to take mine to be graded.
Someone tried to lease one of mine said SHB needs stallions like this.
To which i replied , but horse has a serious back injury and cant be ridden anymore.
His reply was oh we can get round that i will take him and he will grade .
At which point i said Thanks but no thanks as i dont agree with the faces being put up and others put down.
You shouldnt have to put a face on the end of a horse to win/grade.
It makes a farce of it  and so we refuse to get involved with it all.
We were invited to a parade at Catherston , which we declined as i said but stallions have never been graded and that was one of the conditions.
Jennie herself contacted me and said what a shame as they are such lovely stallions and there is so much rubbish about .
Says it all really doesnt it.
I think most of the societies are as bad.


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## sallyf (15 November 2006)

perhaps BSJA is in cahoots and is trying to find another way of making money.
Ridiculous though.


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## dieseldog (15 November 2006)

It doesn't have to be graded with AES for the BSJA, any studbook will do as long as jumping forms part of the process.

It does seem an excessive money making scheme though


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## The Voice (15 November 2006)

I cannot comment at the grading in question or any of the stallions but I have been to many AES grading shows over the years as a spectator looking for stallions for my mares. I have seen 'faces' stallions graded as well as being failed, I have seen shows run smoth and I have see shows run not so smooth. I was at another grading show at Towerlands the other week and only stayed a short time because let's face facts..................90% of stallions put forward should NOT be stallions  if we are looking at Improving the quality of Showjumping horses we breed in this country. 
Many 'faces' have stallions graded pure and simply bcause they have invested in horses and bloodlines and the stallions are better quality (I agree not all the times but many) and are produced properly.
I have seen many disapointed people as they have a lovely horse but it was NOT stallion material, have good enough bloodlines, or has not been produced properly and they find this fact disapointing. 

Over the years looking at showjumping stallions at the AES I would say at every grading there are only a handful that in my personal opionion should be graded the rest should be gelded if we are looking at producing quality showjumping horses.

Now there may be cases for some stallions to be graded for producing quality General Purpose horses (rather than performance) however I do not know that the AES caters for them.

I have also been to gradings abroad and you then realize how far behind we really are. Out of all the hundreds of stallions in ths country I would say thre are about 10 I would consider using and the chances are I would still go abroad.


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## AndyPandy (8 December 2006)

Well, surprise, surprise - my letter was not published. And H&amp;H published their own glowing report of the whole event. Having spoken to various trainers and breeders here and around Europe, they have unanimously made it clear that they all consider the AES to be a poorly run organisation, and gradings by the AES, worthless.

Another European breeder, said to me "You want to know why the rest of Europe doesn't take Britain's breeding seriously? It's because of studbooks like the AES (and many other British studbooks which he listed)".

Going off on a slight tangent, why does everyone here think that we are so far behind? I have a long list of reasons why I think, and know we are (as a nation) such poor horse breeders... but would like to hear your opinions.

Lastly, Admin - can we please have a breeding board in the forum?

Cheers,

Jamie


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## seabiscuit (8 December 2006)

I am not heavily involved with the breeding side of things but all I can see that is happening is that people are using crap mares and crap stallions. Or crap mares with good stallions. But must importantly the standard of most international dressage and SJ horses/riders and in the UK is a bit of a joke compared to the Europeans so why should the Europeans be interested in our horses if they are never in the winnings?There are very very few good stallions in this country compared to vast numbers of International dressage and SJ stallions in Europe that have actually competed at International and Olympic level whereas the majority of ours havent.Not even Arko has been able to qualify for 2nd rounds at Olympics or World Champs. The jumping stallions in the UK seem to be dominated by lowly grade A stallions however there are one or two like Arko that only go to the best mares.
A lot of the top studs are very guilty of breeding to appalling mares, i.e Catherston stud has bred to a vast number of coloured gypsy mares in one year I heard, and the number of dreadfull Dimaggio stock I have seen is appalling he is obviously being put to any old creature.
I have also seen supposedly head stud book mares and thought that they looked and moved like something very ordinary. So it is,as you say,also the grading system that is at fault.


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## AndyPandy (9 December 2006)

Do you think the use of crap stallions and broodmares is because of:

The fact we treat our horses too much like pets, and too little like atheletes?

OR

The fact that breeders in this country have little knowledge of conformation and ways to breed good quality horses?

OR

The fact that there is nothing to push breeders to raise their game (as in, the studbooks here will grade anything, therfore allowing a continuation of the breeding of poor quality horses)?

OR something else?

Jamie


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## tara tee (9 December 2006)

Interesting debate. 

Is the "glowing" report in H&amp;H the one that was in on 30 November? If so, it just seems to be a report about the two stallions who were fully approved, plus a bit about some of the others. I can't find any glowing references in it at all. 
And in your original post you complained about show jumping people doing the judging, but unless I'm going mad, the main stallion in the report is a dressage horse!

I spoke to a friend of mine who was at the AES grading and she said the majority of the horses there were not by any stretch of the imagination stallion material. She said they were nice horses, but did not have that extra something that would improve the breed. 
And at the end, the judges apparently also got abused by screaming owners whose horses did not pass.

Perhaps it would be a good idea to have some rule that if a stallion fails more than two gradings it should be gelded?


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## AndyPandy (9 December 2006)

A very subtle pro-AES post if every I saw one  
	
	
		
		
	


	




 Unfortunately in the UK the judgement of "what characteristics would improve the next generation" seems to be fairly subjective, and this is my main critisism of the AES. They say in their literature that they do not have a strict criteria for grading, but something like this requires objectivity, with a certain degree of subjectivity. 

I'm not at all surprised that the judges were "set-upon", because of the lack of information about why the animals were, or were not graded was so limited. It seemed very frustrating for all involved.

I have yet to hear anything truly positive about the AES or their grading process. There is a severe lack of consistancy in every aspect of this studbook's standards, and the whole point of this discussion should be to talk about ways to improve the situation. Any more suggestions?


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## dieseldog (9 December 2006)

Tara Tee You say that the stallions lacked a certain something - this was a critiscm of my  friends horse that he didn't have that spark, however should we be grading stallions with spark or stallions with manners.  What sort of horse would you want to handle on a day to day basis if you were to buy one of the offspring? Stallions get enough bad press at shows for misbehaving so why penalise the well behaved?


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## S_N (9 December 2006)

I'm not going to comment on the body of this thread, as I agree with far too many points and I would also take some of it personally, having been on the recieving end of a bitchy grading!!

However,

[ QUOTE ]
A lot of the top studs are very guilty of breeding to appalling mares, i.e Catherston stud has bred to a vast number of coloured gypsy mares in one year I heard 

[/ QUOTE ]

I have to say, that this IS true of this particular stud.  BUT AFAIK these mares are the nurse mares for Gainsborough Stud (one of the Shiekhs (I can never spell that) stud's) in Berkshire.  Nurse mares have to have foals to be producing milk for any vavluable TB flat race foal that might need a foster mum.


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## tara tee (9 December 2006)

Instead of pretending that I have something to do with the AES -- which I haven't -- please can you answer my original query. Where was the glowing report in H&amp;H. I looked it up and couldn;t find anything glowing in it. 

I suppose the fierce people picking on the judges is symptomatic of the modern world. If you're not good enough, blame someone else.

I wasn't there, but a friend was. She went to see if she could spot any potential husbands for her mare. One of her remarks was that "the majority of horses seemed to have left their presence on the motorway on the way there".

This was her opinion -- and she should be allowed one surely, even if it doesn't agree with yours?

Another thing she told me that the dressage stallion owners were up in arms about the fact that the horses had to loose jump. No wonder the Europeans laugh at our breeding attempts.

Would you not agree that a potential sport horse stallion should be able to do everything to a decent degree?
So maybe people should be prepared to have failed stallions gelded and take judges' decisions on the chin instead of attacking them about it?


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## tara tee (9 December 2006)

Sorry

I didn't spot your post before. As I keep saying, I wasn't at the grading, but I do beleive that a stallion has to have star quality. It's not something you can easily put into words, but it's that certain something that sets them apart from the average horse.

I think they should be show offs (and not in a badly behaved way, I hasten to that). They must. of course be sound .move straight and be able to jump because they should be able to produce horses that could compete in any discipline.

At the end of the day, it's down to the judges and if they don't like your horse I suppose at least one bonus of our fragmented industry is that there are loads of different socieities to try to get him graded with.

While I was trudgung through H&amp;H looking for the AES report i saw the SHB (GB) grading report. That said that they get initial grading and then have to come back for another assessment the following year, which sounds equally tough.


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## S_N (9 December 2006)

[ QUOTE ]
Another thing she told me that the dressage stallion owners were up in arms about the fact that the horses had to loose jump. No wonder the Europeans laugh at our breeding attempts.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well said!!  I once worked for a German woman in this country, who bred dressage horses.  She often used SJ stallions (generally Oldenbergs), as she said that they had to move just as well as a dressage stallion in order to grade.  She also wouldn't use a Dressage stallion that didn't have a good jump!

[ QUOTE ]
So maybe people should be prepared to have failed stallions gelded

[/ QUOTE ]

Again, very well said!!  If only we could do the same for humand 
	
	
		
		
	


	





[ QUOTE ]
take judges' decisions on the chin instead of attacking them about it? 

[/ QUOTE ]

As you have already said, this is unfortunately a part of modern day life and happens in all spheres of equestrianism where the judes word is final.  It's something that I think is in some way encouraged by reality TV and the way crowds are encouraged to react to the panel of judes...........


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## 0 (9 December 2006)

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
So maybe people should be prepared to have failed stallions gelded

[/ QUOTE ]

Again, very well said!!  If only we could do the same for humand 
	
	
		
		
	


	





[/ QUOTE ]

In terms of sports horses (mainly dr and sj as we are quite good at breeding eventers) I really think that if Britain is going to catch up with europe in breeding then we do need to look at what can be bred from. I think that failed stallions should not be bred from and I think there needs to be much tighter restrictions on the mares used - people forget the importance of the mare, they think a good stallion makes up for anything!!


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## Skhosu (10 December 2006)

'So maybe people should be prepared to have failed stallions gelded'
I would disagree with this as surely not all failed stallions are worthless? Perhaps that judge didn't like them, but another does?
I think it would be a very hard line to take IMO
but then I don't know much about it


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## S_N (10 December 2006)

Ahhh well I took the 'failed stallion' to be a horse who's not producing the goods as a sire, irrespective of his competition record.


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## AndyPandy (10 December 2006)

I am totally in agreement that an ungraded stallion should NOT be used for breeding under any circumstances. However, the grading system in the UK must be better organised and more consistant before this could be implimented in this country.

Of coure, a dressage stallion must be able to jump, and the power that is need to move from walk to canter should be able to carry the stallion over a 1m fence at least. However, dressage AND show jumping judges must be present at a grading.

The three judges at the AES grading were all PURE show jumping, and yes, they graded a dressage stallion who did obvious flashy movements and was easy to spot. However, talented youngsters may well have gone ungraded because there was no dressage experienced judge their.

This is a very useful debate.


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## PapaFrita (10 December 2006)

What an interesting thread 
	
	
		
		
	


	




 Can I ask a few very thick questions please? When someone says their horse is 'graded' can they mean by one of several associations? Also, what does AES stand for, what other associations could one grade with (and what makes AES so desireable) and what does it mean if a horse is 'registered', 'approved' and 'licensed'. Thanks


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## PapaFrita (10 December 2006)

Have had a proper nosey at AES site so now know difference between 'approved' etc, also what AES stands for. Would still like to know about other associations though. Thanks


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## Santa_Claus (10 December 2006)

Anglo European Studbook


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## shells (3 January 2007)

i was reading up on the AES it seems a lot of horses do not pass is it really that hard to have a horse graded?does your face have to fit to get anywhere?


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## Kingsmate (10 November 2009)

Going to throw a spanner in the works here.  I took my 2 1/2 colt to be graded.  We are a very young stud and, basically nobodies.  I have worked my  ........!!! off since this colt was born as I spotted stallion potential.  I had always understand that you needed an important "face" to present stallions at these gradings.  A reasonably well known "face" presented my stallion and his own stallion failed where my passed.  My stallion is by an ungraded Weatherby's stallion (but grandsire is graded) and this is one of the reasons I have worked and prayed that my young colt was good enough to make the grade.  You should approach the judges personally at these gradings who will tell you, no holds barred.  The judges were not particularly enthused about him at the trot up but he showed himself well through the loose jumping - which was, as mentioned by others, a nightmare for young horses.  Fortunately my horse had received some training and is quite bold.  He made registered which lets me know he has still got to prove himself.  I certainly wasn't given an easy ride.  As I said, I am a nobody but have put a huge amount of effort into breeding a quality, British stallion.  The grading was no picnic and neither he nor I were granted any favours.  Why would they? I feel he won through on his own merit.  The AES panel are known to be tough which is why I feel my stud has managed to achieve something.  We will work our socks off to present him later as a 4 year old (if he is good enough) and I hope to present another colt by my other stallion next year.


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## lisaward (10 November 2009)

Well done you ...
you have had some knocks and heartbreak on the way i know but makes the sucess a little sweeter i hope

lisa x


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## Kingsmate (11 November 2009)

Too right Lisa.  This grading feels like we have finally had a stamp of approval that we are getting things right!  Hope so, there's a full brother or sister on the way....xx


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## almorton (11 November 2009)

[ QUOTE ]

OR

The fact that breeders in this country have little knowledge of conformation and ways to breed good quality horses?


Jamie 

[/ QUOTE ]

definitely this!!!!!!!
i am always astounded at some of the horses put forward in sport horse classes and etc, with obvious serious conformation faults and owner / breeder oblivious! 
ditto horses bought as top 'prospects' that i could take bets on how long they would stay sound.


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## Navalgem (11 November 2009)

AP - when a freind took her horse to be graded she was told to do an FEI dressage test and when we turned up we were told it was freestyle and I was also told that there was no 4yo FEI dressage test - even when I waved a copy of it under his nose!

Glad to see they've improved in the last 2 years.....


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## CharCharSlide (12 November 2009)

aside from whether the face fits(which is another rant completely!)
the organisation is dreadful!
i have taken 2 stallions to the aes and 1 to the shbgb and i along with a few other SJs are agreeing this is a much better system with the aes only ever being spoken badly about.

for me the main thing is the lack of organisation, professionalism and just decency!
as someone said earlier after paying that much entry fee and spending alot of time and effort trying to make your horse ready the last thing you want is for people to be rude or as I believe is evry common for the AES no communication at all.

at the shb gb all horses are looked at at conformation, walking and trotting in hand, ridden , ridden jumping and loose movement and jumping(unless under 4 - then just loose). the 2 sections - ridden/loose and conformation/trot up are assessed by 2 different judges on each, totalling 4 judges and they write comments and give marks out of 10 for each part, which you can see when you have finished.

graded or not this gives so much beneficial feedback and lets people know where they stand and exactly what let their stallion down. the judges at shbgb are happy to talk to u and if they know you fairly well then they step down and are not included in the judging! the horses still have to be presesnted 2 years running to be fully graded so it is by no means easier but i highly recommend it to all stallion owners....and would NEVER take another stallion to the aes...

rant over!


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