# Draw reins... Who uses them and why?



## The wife (13 September 2012)

Slightly inspired by Pale Riders post about gadgets, flashes, martingales etc and the fact that I have come across mis-use of them so many times in this last year...

My biggest, ever hate is draw reins... So as the title says, whos uses them, who has used them and why did you use them?

Used correctly, I believe they can be a very useful tool, in the wrong hands, well, it makes me shudder.  I admit to using them once or twice on something that just wasn't 'getting' what I wanted, not for an 'outline' but for bend. The results were fantastic but then I already had a horse that was plenty forward and they were used as a little tweak when needed to wrap around my leg a bit more and were only needed once on each horse.  It is our least used piece of kit and they will hang in the tack room for years and years without being used.

I have witnessed a class of children between the ages of 10-15 at a riding club camp ALL riding their ponies in draw reins, as requested by the instrtuctor, some were even in Dutch gags.  I was absolutely appalled.

So come on guys.  Let's hear it  people please have your tin hats ready


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## StormyMoments (13 September 2012)

used to hack my friends show jumper in draw reins as it prevented her from feeling the need to rear... then we decided that its probably better that we didnt have 2 sets of reins to hold on to while she was pissing about so she was changed into a market harborer (how ever you spell it) so less likely to loose either pairs of reins as she was a bugger fro throwing her head sideways and biting down on the reins and pulling them out of your hand... little madam she was


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## Nightmare before Christmas (13 September 2012)

me because I am a terrible person....I have jumped in them too....send me to hell


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## Wagtail (13 September 2012)

Absolutely hate them! I hate having to reschool a horse that has been mainly schooled in them. Makes them extremely gobby once they realise the reins aren't on. If used sparingly they CAN soften a horse up, but all too often they are used by people who are just over horsed or don't have the skill to school properly. I think the only time I would possibly use them would be to hack out a horse that was too strong for me and who spooked really badly. But then I try to avoid over horsing myself.


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## The wife (13 September 2012)

badgermyers said:



			me because I am a terrible person....I have jumped in them too....send me to hell
		
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Oh my goodness me! You're not just going to hell, you'll have to look up just to see hell


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## Nightmare before Christmas (13 September 2012)

The wife said:



			Oh my goodness me! You're not just going to hell, you'll have to look up just to see hell 

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I think if I look up I see where you talk about, im in deep s**t.....


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## The wife (13 September 2012)

Without a doubt. If you had said you jumped in draw reins AND didn't wear a hat, whilst waving a carrot stick, then I certainly think you'd be looking up at the place below hell and should be banned from ever riding horses again.


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## ilvpippa (13 September 2012)

Me, re-schooling the polo pony, ginger tb mare. Sometimes 10 minutes in the draw reins would be more beneficial than 45 minutes of her fighting down the rein. They have a place. She likes them, shes happy, its only occasional they get used, when i feel shes being gobby. Its like i sometimes school in my three ring gag, sometimes, a 10 minute session is better, once a month in this, which then stops so much arguing in her snaffle


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## Four Seasons (13 September 2012)

*Puts tin hat on*

I must admit, I have used them. My ex-instructor made me believe that draw reins were the  solution for my grey mare, it worked as well. But when I got to a higher level, I noticed that the basics weren't good, because the outline was forced. So I ditched the instructor and found one that focuses on working together and harmony. And now it's going better than ever.

The draw reins got the result I wanted within two weeks, but I took me and my new instructor months to repair the damage.


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## Nightmare before Christmas (13 September 2012)

I had a hat on 9/10 times. But carrot stick! Go hang your head in shame  I wouldnt use such a thing


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## PolarSkye (13 September 2012)

I don't . . . because a) they should never be in my hands . . . ever . . . I am far too novicy; and b) I wouldn't let anyone ride my horse using them b/c he has learned to rear - possibly from being ridden in draw reins in the past.  In the wrong hands, I think they are the devil's work.

P


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## Queenbee (13 September 2012)

I to stop a horse evading contact and stargazing.... I have ridden a couple of horses with very high head carriage who hollow out their backs and go 'emu' on their rider, I use the DR to stop the head going too far up and then my legs to drive their backsides underneath them so they aren't riding like a cut and shut! 

and by this I don't mean I use DR to strap them down, I don't even care if they are on the bit tbh, but I cant stand it when I have ears in my face and no back underneath me, so I use them to stop horses that think they are emus


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## Wagtail (13 September 2012)

Queenbee said:



			I to stop a horse evading contact and stargazing.... I have ridden a couple of horses with very high head carriage who hollow out their backs and go 'emu' on their rider, I use the DR to stop the head going too far up and then my legs to drive their backsides underneath them so they aren't riding like a cut and shut! 

and by this I don't mean I use DR to strap them down, I don't even care if they are on the bit tbh, but I cant stand it when I have ears in my face and no back underneath me, so I use them to stop horses that think they are emus 

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IMO If a horse goes around like that he is either in pain or has not been schooled correctly. There is always a reason.


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## rhino (13 September 2012)

They're not something I've ever felt the need to use up till now


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## cptrayes (13 September 2012)

I used them for daily for over a week recently on a young dressage horse who had decided to use his strength and agility to evade my instructions. He had reached a stage when his maturity and education meant that he needed to do a lot more transitions between and within the pace and a lot more changes of direction. He was using a faked fear of some things which had been around the arena for a full year to justify violent spooking, and if restricted from spooking, to rear and buck. 

For safety, I put them on so that I could stop him doing that. As long as he worked normally, they were not in contact. If he spooked I took up contact in a normal head position. If he bucked or reared, I put him overbent for my safety, where he could do neither with any power. On one day, for a few minutes, when he was particularly objectionable I put him in hyperflexion.  

After a few days I was able to ride with them clipped to the saddle, out of use, for the entire session except a few minutes when he decided to try his luck. After less than two weeks I left them off altogether and don't expect to ever have to use them again. 

Horses are not saints, especially not the highly bred competition parentage ones. This horse had been completely, gently, desensitised to everything he had decided to make a fuss about. This was "teenage boy" tantrums and the draw reins were a quick and fair way of keeping me safe while letting him know what his priorities needed to be. He was, and remains, exceptionally affectionate to handle and bears no grudges 

Used to stop a horse putting his head UP, they are fine and better than a martingale which turns the neck upside down.

Used to pull the head DOWN, my opinion is this should only be done for a short time, just to educate those horses who seem to have no idea that they are even capable of working that way Many ex racers are like this, especially when trying to teach them a balanced canter transition.  It's a much better option than getting a neck in your face 

Used for rider safety, I have no issues.

Used as a shortcut to a "correct" outline - I don't think it will get you there, it will just get you a bad approximation with stuff to be undone later on.

I am though, amazed by the number of people who think draw reins are a work of the devil while being quite happy to work their horses in fixed side reins. That doesn't stack up for me.


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## PolarSkye (13 September 2012)

Wagtail said:



			IMO If a horse goes around like that he is either in pain or has not been schooled correctly. There is always a reason.
		
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This.

Kal's default setting is hollow . . . but in the nearly three years since we've had him we've managed to persuade him that there's another way . . . some of the time.  He's not in pain.  It's just habit.  But I'd much rather school him out of it than strap him down/in, etc.  

But that's just me.

P


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## Cedars (13 September 2012)

OH uses them rarely on the eventer. Told to by someone you don't argue with! Very rare but they work. 

As with all aids, they're fine if used thoughtfully and carefully.


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## cptrayes (13 September 2012)

Wagtail said:



			IMO If a horse goes around like that he is either in pain or has not been schooled correctly. There is always a reason.
		
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I agree with you Wagtail. In the case of, say an ex-racehorse who has deliberately been taught all his life to go in a very different way than a dressage rider wants him to go, for example, would you ever support their use, short term, to educate the horse that there is a different shape he can take?


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## Wagtail (13 September 2012)

cptrayes said:



			I agree with you Wagtail. In the case of, say an ex-racehorse who has deliberately been taught all his life to go in a very different way than a dressage rider wants him to go, for example, would you ever support their use, short term, to educate the horse that there is a different shape he can take?
		
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I specialise in retraining ex race horses, and have never once needed to use them even on an ex steeple chaser who was a nightmare to retrain at first.


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## deicinmerlyn (13 September 2012)

cptrayes said:



			I agree with you Wagtail. In the case of, say an ex-racehorse who has deliberately been taught all his life to go in a very different way than a dressage rider wants him to go, for example, would you ever support their use, short term, to educate the horse that there is a different shape he can take?
		
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I didn't with mine, but it takes longer and many people aren't prepared to take the time to  work slowly and correctly.

I wouldn't rule them out for safety reasons though and keep an open mind.


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## Garfield1537 (13 September 2012)

I used on my ex-hunter out hacking as he started to get out of control and after using twice a massive change and back to old plain old snaffle! Never needed since! I believe in correct hands they are fine - ducking as shots fired!


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## Jools1234 (13 September 2012)

not on mine

the old dressage instructor who teaches the people who's horses i look after, told them i would not like it but lunging in draw reins would get the 6yr old working much better.
when said six year old started running through all reins aids and then started going hollow and buggering off the owner was dissapointed i pointed out how the timing fitted in with the use of the draw reins, since the instructor has been changed and the draw reins ditched the pony is its normal happy self and back winning affiliated dressage against adults with a 14yr old rider on board.


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## cptrayes (13 September 2012)

deicinmerlyn said:



			I didn't with mine, but it takes longer and many people aren't prepared to take the time to  work slowly and correctly.
		
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This is a problem that I have with discussions about draw reins. There is nothing inconsistent in my use of them and correct training. 

And I never can understand why it is supposed in some way to be better to allow a horse to struggle, sometimes for months, with a part of its training than it is to explain it kindly and easily in draw reins in a few days.


For example, 
I've retrained a number of ex racers whose idea of a canter transition on a bend in an arena was to throw its head as high as possible into the air in order to pull the forehand off the floor. They can go on like that for weeks because they know no other way of doing things. It can be associated with other lovely things like a big buck from behind - shoving you straight into their neck with your face - or a mad dash across the arena. 

I can't personally see the point of waiting weeks and putting up with that level of discomfort as a rider, when a few sessions in draw reins, held so the the head is in front of the verticle, educates the horse very quickly that there is actually a more comfortable way to strike off for a canter transition. I don't see that the time delay of not using draw reins is of benefit to either the horse or the rider.

And I don't see that anything in that use is "incorrect" training. It's just taking a little help when it is offered.



Wagtail and Deicinmerlyn, does your more "correct" way of retraining include the use of side reins?


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## Queenbee (13 September 2012)

Wagtail said:



			IMO If a horse goes around like that he is either in pain or has not been schooled correctly. There is always a reason.
		
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actually wagtail thats a crock of poo   I can absolutely say that my mare was not in pain, and she hadn't been schooled incorrectly... moreover she had never even been schooled.  She was forcefull and didn't like being told what to do.  If you would like to tell me how you would go about trying to stop a horse whos got its ears in your face and its back away from your arse and riding from its chest easily I would be happy to hear this.  I hacked my horses long and hard, aiming to keep their heads in a relaxed position such as this:






with ebony, the DR only came into effect when she was trotting, and especially when she was being asked to slow, if she put her head up to evade.

Pickles was the same... no pain there!  He was an avid jogger and stargazer, and again if he didn't want to slow down you weren't going to slow him, his head went up and he went forth jogging for all he was worth from his chest   Again, if he tried this, the DRs simply stopped him getting his head too high to be effective to evade.  Both horses were ridden off normal reins with the DRs fully slack until the horse decided to bring them into action by evading.  

with time, pickles stopped evading hands and legs (although he jogged to his last day) and ebony strengthened the proper muscles and learnt to use her back end properly.  

I would argue that stargazing is not down to pain, but it can eventually cause pain when expected to work properly, if left unchecked it can cause pain, but it is not in itself an indication of pain.  Neither is it an indication of incorrect schooling (ofcourse it sometimes is) but taking ebony as an example it was the case of a 7 yr old, but very immature mare with no experience, very green and a hugely wilful nature.  

DRs meant that I had some level of control over their evasion, at the times that they evaded, and this method of control, whilst restrictive at those specific times remained silent during the rest of the ride.  Neither horses had DRs for the purpose of schooling them into an outline.


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## Kelly1982 (13 September 2012)

I have done very occasionally on my mare if she was having one of her argumentative days.  Never ever had them tight, just having them there made her respect them. Would never use them to strap a horses head down, if you need to do that then you need to go back to basics with your own schooling techniques IMO


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## Mince Pie (13 September 2012)

I use them on the cob when he decides that the world is out to get him and shoves his ears up my nose  I also use them to guide horses onto a contact - ie when their head is where it should be then they are not in use. I also agree with the poster who says they are useful for bending.

Finally, I lunge with them.


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## AdorableAlice (13 September 2012)

At risk of going to hell in a handcart, draw reins and no hat.

This recently purchased young mare had been ridden by someone who held on by their hands.  She was completely fixed in a hollow shape, rigid through her back and had no idea how to stretch forward or down, despite being built to be able to take the hand forward and down.  She fears taking a contact and will anticipate a jab in the mouth by drawing her neck back.  She does this if you put your leg on, we think she has been  kicked on and pulled back at the same time. It will take a long time to getting her truly going forwards.  Leg yield has helped a lot, as has working her on foot getting her to bend her ribcage and cross her feet over.

Six weeks on (3 sessions a week in school, rest hacking) the penny is dropping but only in walk.  It was lovely this morning out hacking with her, she stretched forward and down, lifting her back and had a good swing in her walk, no draw rein and she offered the outline herself.


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## The wife (13 September 2012)

Tut tut, you too will go to that place to look up to hell... All you need is the waving stick


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## JustAnotherNeddy (13 September 2012)

cptrayes said:



			For example, 
I've retrained a number of ex racers whose idea of a canter transition on a bend in an arena was to throw its head as high as possible into the air in order to pull the forehand off the floor. They can go on like that for weeks because they know no other way of doing things. It can be associated with other lovely things like a big buck from behind - shoving you straight into their neck with your face - or a mad dash across the arena. 

I can't personally see the point of waiting weeks and putting up with that level of discomfort as a rider, when a few sessions in draw reins, held so the the head is in front of the verticle, educates the horse very quickly that there is actually a more comfortable way to strike off for a canter transition. I don't see that the time delay of not using draw reins is of benefit to either the horse or the rider.

And I don't see that anything in that use is "incorrect" training. It's just taking a little help when it is offered.
		
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Agree wholeheartedly with this. If there is an easier way for them to 'get it', then i find it perfectly fine! 

I do not however agree with their use in the collecting ring where "pro" SJ'ers strap down noses to chests to look flashy and get bigger flying changes..


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## guido16 (13 September 2012)

Don't use them myself, never have had the need (so far)

One thing queen bee, you say both horses you rode have their ears in your face. Do you think it might be the way you ride? As you are the common denominator?

Not trying to offend you at all, just curious and wondered what you thought?


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## Queenbee (13 September 2012)

Guido, no that's a fair question... Both horses were like this from the day I got them, although other horses that I ride/have ridden have not been like this.  You must understand that pix was a teenage jogging stargazing pony that had been religiously used as a prince Philip cup pony before I had him, he evaded everyone and jogged with everyone, I was actually one of the only people who would ride him when the riding school got him on trial so I could try with a view to buy they also used him in a few lessons and I think the longest anyone else was on him was about 5 mins before there were tears and I had to swop onto him.  This was just him, raring to go at all times anywhere! I only ever saw one person get him in an outline... I never even attempted it, I was 13 and it was far beyond my skill base to do so with such a horse, only my riding instructor could do it.  With ebony she was a very green unschooled 7 yr old, sharp and headstrong with genetically a higher head carriage than some... She was like this on hacks with her previous owner... Although she only went out once or twice a month with them, and they were happy to let her do pretty much anything she wanted to  twizzle on here has ridden ebony and she would tell you the same... Ebony would do this to her last day if she thought she could evade you, but eventually she became familiar with going in an outline too, which meant that I could ride her without her evading.  Don't get me wrong, I know I've always had what is known as a bit of a hot seat, but equally I have a thing for hot sparky horses to start with... I'm pretty sure it's less to do with me and more to do with the type of horse I go for lol!   As I said, there are many other horses that I have been able to get on and ride or school all the way up without ever using dr.  X


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## Elf On A Shelf (13 September 2012)

I use them. I use them and abuse them. I absolutely love them! 

Imagie tryig to lead 6 ponies at a time and holding onto 6 lead ropes?! Eh no ta! Clip one end to the furthest out pony then loop it through the headcollar of the next and so on and so forth until you get to number 6 which gets clipped on as well. Take up your position halfway through the line, grab hold ad off we go!

Et voila! Pony Express!


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## ecrozier (13 September 2012)

Lol at EKW I think you are very brave! I struggle ride and lead with one!
I use them. Not regularly and as yet never for school work - however my almost 17hh six year old has this year developed a habit of spooking/spinning when things look 'out of the ordinary' - for example squirrels, pigeons, bin day, carrier bag by road, etc etc. not a major issue on quiet lanes/bridle ways, however on main national speed limit road outside out old yard, with idiotic drivers aplenty, that just could t happen without huge risk to him and me. So he is hacked for roadwork in draw reins. It allows me to catch the drop-shoulder-spin manoeuvre before its fully executed and we are in the path of oncoming traffic. 
I've since moved yards and am now hopeful that I won't need them for hacking, however he's currently being rehabbed from box rest, he's been in for 9 weeks today, and is now up to 30 mins ridden walk exercise at a time. I prefer to avoid sedation (acp/Sedalin) if possible so have had the draw reins on hand if needed, he's only needed them twice on particularly windy/busy days, and they have done exactly as required - allowed me to catch the spin/spook manoeuvre before either of us came to harm! But as someone said earlier they are never used to keep his head down in an 'outline', just to prevent it from going miles in the air and mid spin!!
I've yet to use them for schooling purposes and can't see myself needinh too, but for certain situations I think they do have a place.


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## The wife (13 September 2012)

EKW said:



			I use them. I use them and abuse them. I absolutely love them! 

Imagie tryig to lead 6 ponies at a time and holding onto 6 lead ropes?! Eh no ta! Clip one end to the furthest out pony then loop it through the headcollar of the next and so on and so forth until you get to number 6 which gets clipped on as well. Take up your position halfway through the line, grab hold ad off we go!

Et voila! Pony Express!
		
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What an excellent idea!!! Have tried juggling 4 lead ropes before, me hands are too small.  But threading through, ingenious !


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## Lyle (13 September 2012)

I have and do use them, but only with great consideration and thought to the horse first. I love using running reins on the lunge, the horses seem to like it too and they get a lovely stretch in all three paces and no tantrums!

Some horses need them to help the penny to drop. My last TB was incredibly inverted, had no idea how to yield to a contact and would just stop with rein pressure. Lunged him in the running reins for a few weeks until he got the picture. Introduced them to riding, and he responded very well. They helped him to get a clearer picture of what was being asked, they helped to direct him where to go.

New TB carries himself beautifully, very soft and I can place him where I want. Except in some transitions  I started to ask him to stay round throughout the halt, he started to ark up. Popped the draw reins on, and they helped him to stay engaged through the halt (no head popping up) he would halt square, and when his head came up they would encourage him down. The problem I'd been having was any rein contact from me would send him backwards, I'd send him forward, and he would shut down 

One session with the DR, one measley moment of 'whatt?' and now his halts are beautiful  Sqaure, soft, still. 

I never use them to hold a head in a postion. The horse is free to lift his head to a degree, but anymore and the draw reins will come into contact then. He has the choice, follow the pressure down or fight it. I've found them invaluable for allowing me to show the horse what I want without the need for strong aids.


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## mandwhy (14 September 2012)

I have to admit I kind of thought they were the devil, mainly due to the cringeworthy sight of a strapped down false 'outline'! 

Totally think it is fine if it will help with a rearer or dangerous behaviour.

How do they help with bucking though? They don't really look like they would stop the horse putting their head down to buck, or is it more the head forwards and that first 'up' movement that often precedes the buck (bronco stylee)? 

My loan TB does not have a super high head carriage but just doesn't really know where to put his head in general, he has nice paces but his head can be all over the place (sometimes headshakes due to flies as well so a face net helps) which makes him unbalanced. I was thinking of trying side reins on the lunge and don't see how draw reins are much different.

The main issue I have with these things is that they are attached to the horse's mouth, does anyone ever use them attached to a noseband or anything, or would that not work?


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## Auslander (14 September 2012)

I found them very useful out hacking on a big, strong, stroppy SelleFrancais - who (like most frenchmen) had no respect for women. Not only did it stop him from sticking his ears in my mouth then leaping and plunging like a fool - but I found that the girth to bit part is in just the right place to grab when you're wallowing around on your face in the mud, and the horse thinks it might be funny to sod off home without you.


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## martlin (14 September 2012)

I use them occasionally. Why? Because I consider them useful for a variety of situations. As long as you are aware what the potential pitfalls are, and what problems they solve versus what problems they create, I can see no reason for them to be condemned.

I shall take my coat and go to hell forthwith.


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## trottingon (14 September 2012)

I agree with Queenbee and also this..  
'This was "teenage boy" tantrums and the draw reins were a quick and fair way of keeping me safe while letting him know what his priorities needed to be'
I am a bit too novice for my youngster and he's taking advantage, he is fine for the rider i have schooling him but I struggle like mad to get his attention, and he is currently testing me quite badly, so at the suggestion of my rider and instructor I put them on as a backup if my boy is showing signs of being a git, not to "bring his head in" particularly but just to help me get him to focus and listen to me and I have to say they have worked a treat, so although I've never liked them particularly and think they encourage a horse to move without engaging their back end, they are a bit of a lifeline for me at the moment.


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## indie999 (14 September 2012)

They were used on a pony my son use to ride to stop putting the head down to eat the grass when small passenger on board. It was only whilst they were out the school ie middle of field and son was learning to canter. Not sure if thats what they were supposed for but it worked Havent read all the posts.


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## guido16 (14 September 2012)

Queen bee, like I said, now offence intended!

You answer explains it well. I used to have a hot seat when I was younger also. Or for me,e maybe it was just bad riding..

EKW - do you have to order extra long DR's for that?       ;-p


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## Jools1234 (14 September 2012)

indie999 said:



			They were used on a pony my son use to ride to stop putting the head down to eat the grass when small passenger on board. It was only whilst they were out the school ie middle of field and son was learning to canter. Not sure if thats what they were supposed for but it worked Havent read all the posts.
		
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i am not trying to be funny but are you sure they were drawer reins as they sre not designed to stop the head going down, in my mind they do the opposite


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## indie999 (14 September 2012)

jools1234 said:



			i am not trying to be funny but are you sure they were drawer reins as they sre not designed to stop the head going down, in my mind they do the opposite
		
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I have absolutely no idea I was told by riding instructor thats what they were?? I am completely clueless on this(as you realise)! I will endeavour to educate myself and find a picture. But I really have no idea as I have never used them myself, long time ago. I remember them being attached to the saddle??? from the bit ie along the side below the normal reins. They may have gone up somewhere but def to saddle on both sides below the reins? It did stop the pony stretching its neck down ie to keep the head in line(if that makes sense). They werent used all the time as the pony was nice and well behaved. Just when we went out in the middle of nowhere for an off lead rein first canter. They did the job. Not sure would want to do this permanently as can imagine the horse being unable to move so freely??? Thats my interpretation!


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## Jazzy B (14 September 2012)

guido16 said:



			Queen bee, like I said, now offence intended!

You answer explains it well. I used to have a hot seat when I was younger also. Or for me,e maybe it was just bad riding..

EKW - do you have to order extra long DR's for that?       ;-p
		
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there is no such thing as a hot seat, just where people fail to sit properly in the saddle   I hate draw reins as currently reschooling a horse who has had been ridden to death in them.............


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## guido16 (14 September 2012)

Miss Bean said:



			there is no such thing as a hot seat, just where people fail to sit properly in the saddle   I hate draw reins as currently reschooling a horse who has had been ridden to death in them.............
		
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Which is why I followed it by saying it was my BAD riding!!


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## tallyho! (14 September 2012)

Never used one. I don't know if it's because I never needed one or because I saw an ex NH horse ridden to death on one. Oh my god that poor horse. It was even hacked in one. I was at this yard a whole year and I swear, I never saw him ridden without one. Anyway, he was retired a year later with kissing spine. Now, this is the thing... Was he ridden in DRs because he was naughty and in pain from his back so she put one on, or did he develop it from being ridden in constant overbend?

I completely understand that if used as an aid, temporarily to help the horse understand something then fine. But to use it as a restraint like the horse above, I wholeheartedly disagree. 

Every gadget was invented by someone for something. Unless you understand it's primary use, don't use it. It then becomes abuse. 

I have used side reins to reschool a horse. A few weeks is all it took to correct a behaviour I did not want. In total, 9times. Three times a week schooling. DR would have had a slightly different effect so that's why I chose SR.

Everyone has different opinions, all based on indidual experience. It's nice to come on here and find out what other people use things for. Well, actually, sometimes it's not nice but, it's interesting!


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## Minstrel_Ted (14 September 2012)

Yes I used them. For my horse who bolted by snatching the bit, they were used as a warning, it worked, it was not to look good it was for safety, they have now been hanging in the tackroom for a great many years as I phased them out, said horse is now a perfect hack. So they did the job for me, and if for the same reason I felt the need for them again I would not hesitate.


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## siennamum (14 September 2012)

tallyho! said:



			R.

Everyone has different opinions, all based on indidual experience. It's nice to come on here and find out what other people use things for. Well, actually, sometimes it's not nice but, it's interesting!
		
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I agree, nice to have considered and open minded responses. If you know why you use them and how to use them they are a useful tool in certain situations.

I really think it likely that most competition yards have draw reins on them. Many riders we admire use them, whether you think that's right or wrong, they  clearly don't ruin all horses. I think if you make sanctimonious statements about your superior management and riding abilities in nothing but a frenchlink then you probably haven't ridden, schooled or competed many horses to any level. And on the subject of sweeping statements......


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## mon (14 September 2012)

Does an elastic bungee strap count as the same. One which.goes from side of girth through  bit rings and and over head?


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## Wagtail (14 September 2012)

cptrayes said:



			This is a problem that I have with discussions about draw reins. There is nothing inconsistent in my use of them and correct training. 

And I never can understand why it is supposed in some way to be better to allow a horse to struggle, sometimes for months, with a part of its training than it is to explain it kindly and easily in draw reins in a few days.


For example, 
I've retrained a number of ex racers whose idea of a canter transition on a bend in an arena was to throw its head as high as possible into the air in order to pull the forehand off the floor. They can go on like that for weeks because they know no other way of doing things. It can be associated with other lovely things like a big buck from behind - shoving you straight into their neck with your face - or a mad dash across the arena. 

I can't personally see the point of waiting weeks and putting up with that level of discomfort as a rider, when a few sessions in draw reins, held so the the head is in front of the verticle, educates the horse very quickly that there is actually a more comfortable way to strike off for a canter transition. I don't see that the time delay of not using draw reins is of benefit to either the horse or the rider.

And I don't see that anything in that use is "incorrect" training. It's just taking a little help when it is offered.



Wagtail and Deicinmerlyn, does your more "correct" way of retraining include the use of side reins?
		
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Cptrayes, I really, really, really do not struggle for days or weeks with a horse throwing its head up in a canter transition. I do not use draw reins when riding because I can do far more to train a horse without them. It is quite easy to train a horse not to throw its head up in the canter transition within a couple of ridden sessions and correct timing/release of the half halt. I never use side reins ridden because there is no need for them. However, when a horse is lunged, it does not have the benefit of the riders hands. My process of retraining an ex racer is to lunge firstly in the pessoa to strengthen the top line, and then to introduce ridden work and occasional lunging in side reins, but not until the horse has learned to go correctly under saddle. I can usually have an off the track horse going reasonably correctly within the first 15 minutes of ridden schooling. Correct transitions take more time as the horse has to build up the strength to execute them smoothly and correctly, but I think that draw reins are counter productive and just allow a horse to develop more of the wrong muscles enabling it to fight the rider. Yes, you will see an immediate lightening when you first take the reins off, but this is very short lived.


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## Elf On A Shelf (14 September 2012)

Guido - nope I just have Shetlands :-D


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## Queenbee (14 September 2012)

Guido and miss bean... I don't disagree... As a teenager I was particularly drawn to hot and fizzy horses and I responded in kind, my focus at that age was never schooling for a calm horse but bombing around the countryside and jumping rounds at breakneck speed on said fizzy horses... To me, at that age a 'correct' seat was not what it was all about at all!!! As time went by I still stuck with the hot fizzy horses but I tamed my wild side down a tad lol and I did start to see the need for schooling etc and focused my attitude on that, in older days when my horse jogged or bunny hopped or pranced around I wouldn't check it or try and intervene just sit there with a grin on my face  that's not to say I couldn't use my seat for those things and I did in my lessons but out of the lessons I was a devil child on the back of a demon pony  ahh, the good old days


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## Wagtail (14 September 2012)

EKW said:



			I use them. I use them and abuse them. I absolutely love them! 

Imagie tryig to lead 6 ponies at a time and holding onto 6 lead ropes?! Eh no ta! Clip one end to the furthest out pony then loop it through the headcollar of the next and so on and so forth until you get to number 6 which gets clipped on as well. Take up your position halfway through the line, grab hold ad off we go!

Et voila! Pony Express!
		
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 Sounds bl@@dy dangerous to me!


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## Tinsel Town (14 September 2012)

I dont becuase I dont really understand the point of them.... 

My friend uses them, and ive heard her using the reason becuase her pony was strong or not listening.....

I asked another friend about this (classically trained prix st george rider) and she nearly had a heart attack! lol! she HATES them!


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## Wagtail (14 September 2012)

There is only one situation where I would use draw reins. For safety. If I absolutely had to ride a horse that was too strong for me and was liable to bolt or spook dangerously.


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## Queenbee (14 September 2012)

Bugger I posted to soon, I meant to say I don't disagree but I don't entirely agree... There are such things as a hot seat... It has to do with the temperament of the rider,  this like many other things is something the rider has to take charge of, not all riders have a hot seat and I do think it's very much linked to rider attitude and response to the horse they are rising, I love riding spunky horses and ponies, and in the past containing my response to riding them was not something i couldnt do it was just not something that was important.... That's not  necesarily bad riding, I had a great seat, could ride either side of anything, sit any misbehaviour, jump anything, and I could calm horses if absolutely necessary... I didn't encourage misbehaviour deliberately winding horses up... I just didnt discourage it either... But then that's how I remember kids to be. I still love fizzy horses but I have more of a 'mummy says no' attitude than an 'ok do it' attitude


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## Wagtail (14 September 2012)

What do people think about instructors who get their pupils to ride in them? In my experience this happens when the rider is unable to get the horse onto the bit and the instructor is too lazy to teach them to do it. You need endless patience with some people, and I think some instructors just give up.


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## Wagtail (14 September 2012)

Queenbee said:



			Bugger I posted to soon, I meant to say I don't disagree but I don't entirely agree... There are such things as a hot seat... It has to do with the temperament of the rider,  this like many other things is something the rider has to take charge of, not all riders have a hot seat and I do think it's very much linked to rider attitude and response to the horse they are rising, I love riding spunky horses and ponies, and in the past containing my response to riding them was not something i couldnt do it was just not something that was important.... That's not  necesarily bad riding, I had a great seat, could ride either side of anything, sit any misbehaviour, jump anything, and I could calm horses if absolutely necessary... I didn't encourage misbehaviour deliberately winding horses up... I just didnt discourage it either... But then that's how I remember kids to be. I still love fizzy horses but I have more of a 'mummy says no' attitude than an 'ok do it' attitude 

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One of my clients is the opposite. We joke that she has a cold seat as everything she gets on just shuts down, goes on the forehand and drags itself along. Even horses that are usually very hot and forward going. I think she carries a lot of stiffness through her body and is blocking them.


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## Pale Rider (14 September 2012)

Wagtail said:



			One of my clients is the opposite. We joke that she has a cold seat as everything she gets on just shuts down, goes on the forehand and drags itself along. Even horses that are usually very hot and forward going. I think she carries a lot of stiffness through her body and is blocking them.
		
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Cannot comment on the stiffness, but sounds to me like you're discussing an individuals energy. Some people always manage to gee horses up, as you say, I feel this is the horse picking up on someones high energy, conversely some folk display low energy and can shut a horse down. Learning to raise and lower your energy level when riding certainly has an effect on the horse when being ridden, or on the ground.


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## Wagtail (14 September 2012)

Pale Rider said:



			Cannot comment on the stiffness, but sounds to me like you're discussing an individuals energy. Some people always manage to gee horses up, as you say, I feel this is the horse picking up on someones high energy, conversely some folk display low energy and can shut a horse down. Learning to raise and lower your energy level when riding certainly has an effect on the horse when being ridden, or on the ground.
		
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You make a good point PR. I have been teaching this lady for a number of years and have failed to get her riding in such a way that the horses go forwards for her. I have been concentrating on the technical aspects of her riding and her position etc, but had not even thought about her energy levels. You are right. When I think about it, she generally moves very slowly with low energy. I will try getting her to gee herself up and see what effect it has.


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## Queenbee (14 September 2012)

Ha ha, I'd rather be trying to get a horse to relax than having to constantly nag it to go forward lol!  I look back on my times as a teenager with great fondness... Cantering any bit of track I could, going off with my friend with a picnic on my back for the day, coming home to find a search party out for us because we were so long! Galloping downhill overtaking slower competitors on xc comps! Jiggly ponies and a pony that loved his xc so much u almost couldn't get him through the start gate as he was so excited he just kept rearing (only time he would rear) but boy oh boy when you did get him through nothing stopped him   I spent the entirety of my youth with a grin slapped permanently on my face... That's fizzy ponies for you lol


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## lula (14 September 2012)

Wagtail said:



			You make a good point PR. I have been teaching this lady for a number of years and have failed to get her riding in such a way that the horses go forwards for her. I have been concentrating on the technical aspects of her riding and her position etc, but had not even thought about her energy levels. You are right. When I think about it, she generally moves very slowly with low energy. I will try getting her to gee herself up and see what effect it has.
		
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the energy point would be interesting to put to the test actually. 

Without seeing that proven though what you say about your client's physical stiffness blocking the horse from going forward Wagtail makes perfect logical sense to me .

Elaborating on that, it is interesting how people's individual physiological body issues or riding position can hinder or encourage a horse's action or way of going under them. 

i used to use draw reins when i was young, didn't know any better and was impatient for results. All the reasons NOT to use them.

In people that actually know what they're doing with them, draw reins have their place, with those that dont, and here i include my younger self in this, its as that old saying goes; 'like putting a razor blade in the hands of a monkey'


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## TheSylv007 (14 September 2012)

cptrayes said:



			I used them for daily for over a week recently on a young dressage horse who had decided to use his strength and agility to evade my instructions. He had reached a stage when his maturity and education meant that he needed to do a lot more transitions between and within the pace and a lot more changes of direction. He was using a faked fear of some things which had been around the arena for a full year to justify violent spooking, and if restricted from spooking, to rear and buck. 

For safety, I put them on so that I could stop him doing that. As long as he worked normally, they were not in contact. If he spooked I took up contact in a normal head position. If he bucked or reared, I put him overbent for my safety, where he could do neither with any power. On one day, for a few minutes, when he was particularly objectionable I put him in hyperflexion.  

After a few days I was able to ride with them clipped to the saddle, out of use, for the entire session except a few minutes when he decided to try his luck. After less than two weeks I left them off altogether and don't expect to ever have to use them again. 

Horses are not saints, especially not the highly bred competition parentage ones. This horse had been completely, gently, desensitised to everything he had decided to make a fuss about. This was "teenage boy" tantrums and the draw reins were a quick and fair way of keeping me safe while letting him know what his priorities needed to be. He was, and remains, exceptionally affectionate to handle and bears no grudges 

Used to stop a horse putting his head UP, they are fine and better than a martingale which turns the neck upside down.

Used to pull the head DOWN, my opinion is this should only be done for a short time, just to educate those horses who seem to have no idea that they are even capable of working that way Many ex racers are like this, especially when trying to teach them a balanced canter transition.  It's a much better option than getting a neck in your face 

Used for rider safety, I have no issues.

Used as a shortcut to a "correct" outline - I don't think it will get you there, it will just get you a bad approximation with stuff to be undone later on.

I am though, amazed by the number of people who think draw reins are a work of the devil while being quite happy to work their horses in fixed side reins. That doesn't stack up for me.
		
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This for me


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## Queenbee (14 September 2012)

What PR says is pretty much what I was trying to get at... Temperament of rider... Those with lots of energy vs those who are calm.  If your scared your horse pick up on it, if ur confident they pick up on it... It's no different... You have a direct connection with your horse and they feel your energy, what it's saying and react accordingly.  If I every feel like in causing a horse to fizz nowadays.... I tense every single muscle possible in my body and hold, focusing on squeezing even harder... Then I let it all go... Completely relaxes me and the horse suddenly throws off its demon horns too.


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## cptrayes (14 September 2012)

Wagtail said:



			Cptrayes, I really, really, really do not struggle for days or weeks with a horse throwing its head up in a canter transition. I do not use draw reins when riding because I can do far more to train a horse without them. It is quite easy to train a horse not to throw its head up in the canter transition within a couple of ridden sessions and correct timing/release of the half halt.
		
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This is not my experience Wagtail.

My 30+ years of training horses has mostly been with other people's cheap and often dangerous castoffs including a number of ex racers. Amongst that lot there were several who I could not cure of head chucking in a couple of sessions.

From what you write, you are simply head and shoulders in your ability to retrain bad horses than any other user on this forum and I would be forced to bow to your superior abilities.

For the rest of us, the occasional use of draw reins is of benefit both to us and to the horse.





			I never use side reins ridden because there is no need for them. However, when a horse is lunged, it does not have the benefit of the riders hands. My process of retraining an ex racer is to lunge firstly in the pessoa to strengthen the top line, and then to introduce ridden work and occasional lunging in side reins, but not until the horse has learned to go correctly under saddle. I can usually have an off the track horse going reasonably correctly within the first 15 minutes of ridden schooling. Correct transitions take more time as the horse has to build up the strength to execute them smoothly and correctly, but I think that draw reins are counter productive and just allow a horse to develop more of the wrong muscles enabling it to fight the rider. Yes, you will see an immediate lightening when you first take the reins off, but this is very short lived.
		
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Your ex racers bear no relation to the ones I've had! Either that or I'm a crap trainer. All my off the track racers practically fell over if asked to do a 20 metre circle, all they knew was straight lines in walk or gallop. 

I do not recognise your description of draw reins, used properly, developing the wrong muscles. Neither do I find their effects short lived.

I can only repeat, it beats me that people who hate draw reins are prepared to lunge their horses in fixed side reins. I wouldn't let a wooden-handed rider on any of my horses, and side reins are the same. They make no allowance for the horse to use itself to find its own balance, they trap it into a frame and encourage a front heavy horse to set on the bit.


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## siennamum (14 September 2012)

Interestingly I think canter transitions in a novice/prelim horse are an absolute insight into it's level of training. 
I think it normal and natural to come above the bit to seek balance. The horse needs to have a reasonable level of balance, suppleness and engagement to not feel the need to do this. I would expect this to take months from a standing start. Fiddling them down would prevent a true transition IMO.


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## NooNoo59 (14 September 2012)

Like any artificial aid - if needed, not often and only in experienced hands.
I have used them on my boy when he has had a break from schooling or is getting a bit above himself just to get him to focus but never for long periods of time just as a little reminder, also as my instructor says he must be kept forward so we are not just jacking the head in but getting him to relax and work through, some people dont seem to realise that if they are not working the engine and the 'back end' the front is just not going to come right, its the overall working of the horse that matters not just  jamming the head in the right place. No bit of kit can replace time and effort!


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## Wagtail (14 September 2012)

cptrayes said:



			This is not my experience Wagtail.

From what you write, you are simply head and shoulders in your ability to retrain bad horses than any other user on this forum and I would be forced to bow to your superior abilities.

For the rest of us, the occasional use of draw reins is of benefit both to us and to the horse.
		
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 I very much doubt it! It really is not that hard. Honestly, I really do not understand the need for them, especially on thoroughbreds. However, I would say that I have only been able to do this in the last eight years of training horses. The first twenty years I was learning, and pretty rubbish. I am still learning, but not so rubbish. 




			Your ex racers bear no relation to the ones I've had! Either that or I'm a crap trainer. All my off the track racers practically fell over if asked to do a 20 metre circle, all they knew was straight lines in walk or gallop.
		
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Oh goodness me, no. They are not able to do circles, they do not understand 'contact' and that they can move forward into any pressure. That is why I spend the first few weeks lunging in the pessoa. By the time I get on it is a very quick process indeed to get them working over their backs into a contact. I do not even try until they are strong enough to lunge well in walk, trot and canter on a circle, and understand the verbal commands.




			I do not recognise your description of draw reins, used properly, developing the wrong muscles. Neither do I find their effects short lived.
		
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Unfortuanately, I have spent far too long trying to retrain horses that have been relentlessly schooled in them.




			I can only repeat, it beats me that people who hate draw reins are prepared to lunge their horses in fixed side reins. I wouldn't let a wooden-handed rider on any of my horses, and side reins are the same. They make no allowance for the horse to use itself to find its own balance, they trap it into a frame and encourage a front heavy horse to set on the bit.
		
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I use side reins with elastic inserts, and they are not used until the horse has been schooled ridden and is ready to work in a more advanced outline.


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## cptrayes (14 September 2012)

siennamum said:



			Interestingly I think canter transitions in a novice/prelim horse are an absolute insight into it's level of training. 
I think it normal and natural to come above the bit to seek balance. The horse needs to have a reasonable level of balance, suppleness and engagement to not feel the need to do this. I would expect this to take months from a standing start. Fiddling them down would prevent a true transition IMO.
		
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I absolutely agree with you, which is why I dislike fixed side reins and prefer draw reins that allow you to allow the horse to raise its head. However giving you its ears to taste is another matter. If you try to cure that with a martingale, you'll get the neck muscle on the bottom of the neck enlarged. You can do it easily, safely and without building up the wrong muscles with draw reins.


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## tallyho! (14 September 2012)

Just wondered what the opinions of those people who do not use side reins are about them. The SRS seem to ONLY use side reins and there is no mention of draw reins in any of my old books... (I went away and had a peruse earlier as I was so intrigued to see if there were a reference) there are lots of mentions of on the ground training though, nearly a quarter to a half of my oldest books are devoted to in-hand work. 

This also got me thinking how very seldomly I see people working horses in hand these days... I only learnt how to about 7 years ago in my twenties and certainly was never taught how to lunge at my riding school. Now, I do such a lot in hand, lateral work and on the lunge. Not all of it translates into ridden but I would be keen to learn more advanced work if only I could find a decent trainer!


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## cptrayes (14 September 2012)

Wagtail said:



			Unfortunately, I have spent far too long trying to retrain horses that have been relentlessly schooled in them.
		
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People do use them wrongly, but it isn't a good reason to criticise people who know how to use them properly or write them off altogether, I don't think.  But I would say that wouldn't I  ? 






			I use side reins with elastic inserts, and they are not used until the horse has been schooled ridden and is ready to work in a more advanced outline.
		
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They are still fixed, and my experience is that horses still lean on them and sock themselves in the teeth with them if they need to put their head up to get a transition through. 

I dislike them just like you dislike draw reins.  I don't like any lunging gadgets, in fact I don't like lunging at all. My preference is to ride the horse so that I can feel where it is having difficulties and make allowances for them. (Only if it is strong enough to do what I am doing, of course).

But that's just me. As long as your horses are happy and you are safe, that's all that really matters in the end.


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## siennamum (14 September 2012)

Because we struggled with a saddle for the Iberian type we have just broken in my son spent some time working him hand Tallyho.

Only walking alongside getting transitions up & down whilst staying on the contact. He carried his hand each side of the wither and a whip in the outside hand. It was far more meaningful that long reining for establishing contact and horse was able to move freely into a nice contact.

I don't have an issue with side reins, but only on certain horses. My mare will work beautifully in them, my gelding is far too sensitive. 

On Wagtail's posts although I suspect I am on UI. What is the difference is using a pessoa as described and using draw reins, aside from the rider' weight?


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## kirstykate (14 September 2012)

Completely agree with cptrayes.  There is nothing wrong with draw reins, if used correctly.


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## lula (14 September 2012)

tallyho! said:



			This also got me thinking how very seldomly I see people working horses in hand these days...
		
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very true and just shows how much classical training is a forgotten art for many nowadays


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## nikicb (14 September 2012)

I think they are one of those pieces of equipment that you can use in certain situations/with certain horses when they are needed.  I used draw reins when my old girl was a complete lunatic of a 5/6/7 year old in order to hack her out on occasion to prevent her from standing up, etc. (that was almost 30 years ago though ).  Would I allow the 10 year old girl who rides one of my ponies, to use them as a quick fix as her mother has suggested - not over my dead body.


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## TGM (14 September 2012)

siennamum said:



			On Wagtail's posts although I suspect I am on UI. What is the difference is using a pessoa as described and using draw reins, aside from the rider' weight?
		
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Whilst I am not a draw rein fan, I can't quite understand how someone can be totally against using draw reins, yet a fan of the pessoa?  At least with draw reins there is the option for the rider to release the rein, which isn't possible with the pessoa.


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## Wagtail (14 September 2012)

siennamum said:



			On Wagtail's posts although I suspect I am on UI. What is the difference is using a pessoa as described and using draw reins, aside from the rider' weight?
		
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We are talking about different things entirely as one is designed for ridden work, and the other for lunging. I do not believe there is any need for gadgets when ridden, except, as I have said before, you are over horsed and it is for safety.

But these are the differences as I see them. With draw reins you are just hauling the head in. It does nothing for the back end or the back. Fitted correctly, the pessoa is loose when the horse is working long and low, with the nose only a foot or so from the floor. The cords are loose when the horse works this way and only tighten when the horse comes above the bit. The head is not tucked in like it is with draw reins. I do not use it on the higher settings as I am interested only in building top line. I do not use any gadgets when riding.


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## Auslander (14 September 2012)

siennamum said:



			What is the difference is using a pessoa as described and using draw reins, aside from the rider' weight?
		
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I'd rather use draw reins than a Pessoa personally. At least with draw reins, you have the option to release the moment the horse responds. Even when a horse is working 'correctly' in a Pessoa, the thrust of their hindlegs is still socking them in the chops every stride. 

I don't like any gadgets that are not affected by the rider. The most important thing, to me, is the ability to immediately reward the horse for a good reaction, and that cannot be done to such a great effect when the gadget doesn't have a good pair of hands as a key element of it.


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## martlin (14 September 2012)

Auslander said:



			Even when a horse is working 'correctly' in a Pessoa, the thrust of their hindlegs is still socking them in the chops every stride.
		
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It surprises me how very few people notice that. Personally, I don't like trussing them up like that, I lunge in a chambon if I need to lunge in something and as to the back end, well, my whip hand is responsible for driving that, not a piece of string on a pulley.


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## Wagtail (14 September 2012)

TGM said:



			Whilst I am not a draw rein fan, I can't quite understand how someone can be totally against using draw reins, yet a fan of the pessoa?  At least with draw reins there is the option for the rider to release the rein, which isn't possible with the pessoa.
		
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You would be surprised at how slow draw reins are to release as there is some friction where they pass through the bit rings and even if the rider completely drops the rein, the release is not immediate. That is why gadgets like the pessoa use pulleys rather than feeding the rein through the bit rings. I was teaching a client earlier this weeks and she had put draw reins on (much to my disapproval but hey ho, her horse). The horse knew he had them on due to having been schooled a lot in them in the past and so immediately came behind the vertical. My client kept taking up the slack along with the slack in the real reins and he was soon trotting around in rollkur! Now this just illustrates how awful these things are in novice hands. I am not suggesting for a moment that the more expeienced here would let that happen. But it does show that there is a high level of skill in using them effectively and not to the detriment of the horse. Obviously, I removed the reins PDQ!


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## Wagtail (14 September 2012)

Auslander said:



			I'd rather use draw reins than a Pessoa personally. At least with draw reins, you have the option to release the moment the horse responds. Even when a horse is working 'correctly' in a Pessoa, the thrust of their hindlegs is still socking them in the chops every stride. 

I don't like any gadgets that are not affected by the rider. The most important thing, to me, is the ability to immediately reward the horse for a good reaction, and that cannot be done to such a great effect when the gadget doesn't have a good pair of hands as a key element of it.
		
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On the contrary, when I use the pessoa, if the horse is working correctly, the lines are slack and there is no 'socking' in the mouth going on at all. The only movement is a small swing in the line as you would get if riding on the buckle.


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## kirstykate (14 September 2012)

Wagtail said:



			We are talking about different things entirely as one is designed for ridden work, and the other for lunging. I do not believe there is any need for gadgets when ridden, except, as I have said before, you are over horsed and it is for safety.

But these are the differences as I see them. With draw reins you are just hauling the head in. It does nothing for the back end or the back. Fitted correctly, the pessoa is loose when the horse is working long and low, with the nose only a foot or so from the floor. The cords are loose when the horse works this way and only tighten when the horse comes above the bit. The head is not tucked in like it is with draw reins. I do not use it on the higher settings as I am interested only in building top line. I do not use any gadgets when riding.
		
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Sorry but I disagree totally, if they are used correctly they don't not haul the head in and as for the back end that's up to the rider to keep it engaged. As with the pessoa the draw reins should be loose when the horse is in self carriage.


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## Slightlyconfused (14 September 2012)

Me but only the odd times just to help pony understand something and for roughly ten/fifteen mins


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## Wagtail (14 September 2012)

kirstykate said:



			Sorry but I disagree totally, if they are used correctly they don't not haul the head in and as for the back end that's up to the rider to keep it engaged. As with the pessoa the draw reins should be loose when the horse is in self carriage.
		
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I appreciate what you are saying about correct use of draw reins. Unfortunately, in practice, I have never seen them used that way.


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## Auslander (14 September 2012)

martlin said:



			It surprises me how very few people notice that. Personally, I don't like trussing them up like that, I lunge in a chambon if I need to lunge in something and as to the back end, well, my whip hand is responsible for driving that, not a piece of string on a pulley.
		
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I'm a lost cause anyway. I rarely lunge, and when I do , I do it in a way that would cause the BHS to hold their hands up in horror


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## kirstykate (14 September 2012)

Wagtail said:



			I appreciate what you are saying about correct use of draw reins. Unfortunately, in practice, I have never seen them used that way.
		
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Totally, its the same as any gadget/bit in the wrong hands look out.  We lunge in draw reins as well, we have our own round house which works better than a pessoa.


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## Auslander (14 September 2012)

Wagtail said:



			On the contrary, when I use the pessoa, if the horse is working correctly, the lines are slack and there is no 'socking' in the mouth going on at all. The only movement is a small swing in the line as you would get if riding on the buckle.
		
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So how does it have an effect then? My experience of it is that the horse resists, and the action of the Pessoa makes it clear to him that it is more comfortable not to do so.


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## kirstykate (14 September 2012)

Auslander said:



			So how does it have an effect then? My experience of it is that the horse resists, and the action of the Pessoa makes it clear to him that it is more comfortable not to do so.
		
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Kick me if I am being stupid, but isnt that the idea of them/any other gadget its uncomfortable when the horse is going incorrectly


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## Auslander (14 September 2012)

kirstykate said:



			Kick me if I am being stupid, but isnt that the idea of them/any other gadget its uncomfortable when the horse is going incorrectly

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Yes! This is my argument!


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## Wagtail (14 September 2012)

Auslander said:



			So how does it have an effect then? My experience of it is that the horse resists, and the action of the Pessoa makes it clear to him that it is more comfortable not to do so.
		
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The horse learns to work long and low as in a chambon or de gouge so that the lines become slack. Working long and low lifts the back and builds up top line. You can use a pessoa on a higher setting, but this is where I do not like its action. This is where there can indeed be some 'socking in the mouth' going on. That is why I only use it on its lowest setting and have found it extremely useful in building topline.


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## Goldenstar (14 September 2012)

Wagtail said:



			The horse learns to work long and low as in a chambon or de gouge so that the lines become slack. Working long and low lifts the back and builds up top line. You can use a pessoa on a higher setting, but this is where I do not like its action. This is where there can indeed be some 'socking in the mouth' going on. That is why I only use it on its lowest setting and have found it extremely useful in building topline.
		
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A lunging rope works better and never overbends the horse a Pessoa works by teaching the horse if it raised its head it pulls on its bum.the horse is trussed into a way of going.


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## Wagtail (14 September 2012)

Goldenstar said:



			A lunging rope works better and never overbends the horse a Pessoa works by teaching the horse if it raised its head it pulls on its bum.the horse is trussed into a way of going.
		
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Every gadget works this way. The horse is taught that the 'right way' is the most comfortable way. Pulling on its bum is hardly a nasty thing to do. I have never seen a horse over bend in a correctly fitted pessoa. My objection to draw reins though, is that they just are not needed, where as, if you lunge, you have to replace the rider in some way if you are to exercise the right muscles. I would not use a pessoa on a riden horse, any more than I would use draw reins or a de gouge. You have the rider to ensure the horse is working correctly. A skilled rider can make the horse understand the correct way of going better than any gadget (including the pessoa).

ETA: when I lunge with two reins, I don't use any gadgets as they are not needed.


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## Mearas (14 September 2012)

Why bother with any of it? 

If you are a novice rider you should not use any gadgets, as an experienced rider you have the seat, aids and knowledge not to need or to bother with them. Maybe there's an argument for using them to keep you safe but then why put yourself in an unsafe situation? 

All gadgets are is a short cut to training, so assess the problem, and then spend the time working it through. If you cannot work the problem through find a trainer who can help you.


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## Auslander (14 September 2012)

Wagtail said:



			The horse learns to work long and low as in a chambon or de gouge so that the lines become slack. Working long and low lifts the back and builds up top line. You can use a pessoa on a higher setting, but this is where I do not like its action. This is where there can indeed be some 'socking in the mouth' going on. That is why I only use it on its lowest setting and have found it extremely useful in building topline.
		
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I am fully aware of the positive effects of working long and low. My question was about how you feel the horse learns to work long and low whilst in the Pessoa.

EDIT - You've answered my question above. Thank you. It works exactly the same as any other gadget, including draw reins - but persuading the horse that it is uncomfortable to go incorrectly. I can see your point re the rider shoudl be able to achieve this without the use of gadgets, but sadly - this isn't always possible.


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## Queenbee (14 September 2012)

Wagtail said:



			On the contrary,_ when I use the pessoa, if the horse is working correctly, the lines are slack and there is no 'socking' in the mouth going on at all. _The only movement is a small swing in the line as you would get if riding on the buckle.
		
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Im not picking or attacking this, just a genuine point, so if the horse is in the pessoa and going well, therefore not being socked in the mouth why use it? And if it comes out of the correct frame and gets socked in the mouth, does this really sit comfortable with you, I would far rather a horse meet a consistent 'block' from a pair of DR, than 'socking' from a pessoa...  why is one acceptable and the other is not... not much between the two really, although I think a jab is worse than a consistant block.  Im not saying it is, Im just genuinely curious as to why you would prefer it, when both methods are intended to not act upon the horse when it is in self carriage?


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## Mearas (14 September 2012)

Auslander said:



			EDIT - You've answered my question above. Thank you. It works exactly the same as any other gadget, including draw reins - but persuading the horse that it is uncomfortable to go incorrectly. I can see your point re the rider shoudl be able to achieve this without the use of gadgets, but sadly - this isn't always possible.
		
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From my own perspective I have found a very knowledgable and capable trainer who I have never seen confronted with a problem that she cannot resolve. But it sometimes takes a lot of time and patience sadly, one thing many people don't have much of. In general though the problems occur because of poor training or misunderstandings which need the horse and rider to redress and this may mean going back to basics for a while.

Sometimes there is always going to be a small problem because horses don't forget and if there is a history it may always be there in some form forever. But gadgets are never going to resolve this.

I guess if you are going to use a gadget you need to know what problem it is going to resolve, how it will resolve that problem and how long it will take. If you are using it for weeks and weeks it is not resolving the problem.


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## Persephone (14 September 2012)

Wagtail said:



			You would be surprised at how slow draw reins are to release as there is some friction where they pass through the bit rings and even if the rider completely drops the rein, the release is not immediate. That is why gadgets like the pessoa use pulleys rather than feeding the rein through the bit rings. I was teaching a client earlier this weeks and she had put draw reins on (much to my disapproval but hey ho, her horse). The horse knew he had them on due to having been schooled a lot in them in the past and so immediately came behind the vertical. My client kept taking up the slack along with the slack in the real reins and he was soon trotting around in rollkur! Now this just illustrates how awful these things are in novice hands. I am not suggesting for a moment that the more expeienced here would let that happen. But it does show that there is a high level of skill in using them effectively and not to the detriment of the horse. Obviously, I removed the reins PDQ!
		
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Mine have waxy rope going through the bit rings so no friction at all, I would say they release instantly. I cansee how leather wouldn't though.

Oops, guess I just admitted to using them! Like many others have said I prefer to use them once or twice to give the right idea to the right horse.


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## millitiger (14 September 2012)

Auslander said:



			So how does it have an effect then? My experience of it is that the horse resists, and the action of the Pessoa makes it clear to him that it is more comfortable not to do so.
		
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This is why I don't like pessoas- either the horse is getting pulled in the mouth every stride if they try to take the contact forward OR to stop that, they drop behind the contact instead of carrying the rein forward.

On draw reins- I have used them for safety and I have used them on 2 horses in the past to help them understand the canter transition- they did the job in one session and both horses had much improved transitions from that session on (not a shortlived improvement).

For at least the last 5 years I haven't felt the need to use my draw reins ridden; they are excellent for lunging in though and I do that about once a fortnight


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## Mearas (14 September 2012)

millitiger said:



			This is why I don't like pessoas- either the horse is getting pulled in the mouth every stride if they try to take the contact forward OR to stop that, they drop behind the contact instead of carrying the rein forward.

On draw reins- I have used them for safety and I have used them on 2 horses in the past to help them understand the canter transition- they did the job in one session and both horses had much improved transitions from that session on (not a shortlived improvement).

For at least the last 5 years I haven't felt the need to use my draw reins ridden; they are excellent for lunging in though and I do that about once a fortnight 

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How can draw reins improve a canter transition, please?


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## Wagtail (14 September 2012)

Queenbee said:



			Im not picking or attacking this, just a genuine point, so if the horse is in the pessoa and going well, therefore not being socked in the mouth why use it? And if it comes out of the correct frame and gets socked in the mouth, does this really sit comfortable with you, I would far rather a horse meet a consistent 'block' from a pair of DR, than 'socking' from a pessoa...  why is one acceptable and the other is not... not much between the two really, although I think a jab is worse than a consistant block.  Im not saying it is, Im just genuinely curious as to why you would prefer it, when both methods are intended to not act upon the horse when it is in self carriage?
		
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But we are not comparing like with like, QB. One is a lunging aid to replace the rider (if you want the horse to work over its back you have to use something). The other is an unnecessary gadget. Unnecessary because the rider should do all the correcting necessary. I am not against the principle of making the correct way of going the most comfortable way. If you ride correctly, this is also the case. But I am against using something WHILST riding which effectively ties the horse's head down and deadens the rider aids. If you rely on draw reins then you will never develop true feel. I don't believe that a rider who needs to use them 'to show a horse how to work' or 'so that the penny would drop' or 'how to bend properly' has developed true feel, or if they HAVE developed true feel and still need to use them, then they have over horsed themselves.

There is one horse here that is at the absolute limit of my riding ability. Any more big or athletic and I would be over horsed. I guess that if I HAD to over horse myself for any reason, then yes, I would be forced to use draw reins.


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## millitiger (14 September 2012)

Mearas said:



			How can draw reins improve a canter transition, please?
		
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Well for these 2 horses, it stopped them 'flicking' their noses skywards 

They stayed in front of the vertical and it just guided them to not popping out of my hands during the strike off.

As I said, used for one session on each (had these horses at different times) and it helped me break the habit with no fuss or argument and both continued after that to stay true to the contact during the transition.


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## Goldenstar (14 September 2012)

Wagtail said:



			Every gadget works this way. The horse is taught that the 'right way' is the most comfortable way. Pulling on its bum is hardly a nasty thing to do. I have never seen a horse over bend in a correctly fitted pessoa. My objection to draw reins though, is that they just are not needed, where as, if you lunge, you have to replace the rider in some way if you are to exercise the right muscles. I would not use a pessoa on a riden horse, any more than I would use draw reins or a de gouge. You have the rider to ensure the horse is working correctly. A skilled rider can make the horse understand the correct way of going better than any gadget (including the pessoa).

ETA: when I lunge with two reins, I don't use any gadgets as they are not needed.
		
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In a lunging rope the horses mouth is not attached with a pully to its hind legs it is a completly different action to the Pessoa it also has no poll pressure another pet hate of mine in a lunging gadget.
Draw riens are extremly easy and quick to release if you are skilled and they are the quality round type unlike while I agree totally they are over used they can be a valuable help to show a damaged horse a different way with minimum rien aids but like everything with horses it's down to how good you are with them.
I was fortunate to be trained how to use them in a very formal way however although I will happily put them on if I feel the need in truth I dont think they have been out of the tack room in over six months.


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## Archina (14 September 2012)

Occasionally I will use them while lunging and when I worked at trekking yards i always used to put them on the horses if the riders where beginners, it stopped the horses from trying to munch grass. They where very long draw reins though


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## Auslander (14 September 2012)

Archina said:



			Occasionally I will use them while lunging and when I worked at trekking yards i always used to put them on the horses if the riders where beginners, it stopped the horses from trying to munch grass. They where very long draw reins though 

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Are you sure you dont mean sidereins? A horse snatching the reins out of a novice riders hands to eat grass would be able to do so just as successfully if it were wearing draw reins, as they are held in the riders hands.


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## Mearas (14 September 2012)

millitiger said:



			Well for these 2 horses, it stopped them 'flicking' their noses skywards 

They stayed in front of the vertical and it just guided them to not popping out of my hands during the strike off.

As I said, used for one session on each (had these horses at different times) and it helped me break the habit with no fuss or argument and both continued after that to stay true to the contact during the transition.
		
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I am glad that it has worked successfully for you and it was resolved in one lesson. For myself I always aim to have the horses weight out of the shoulders and them straight and balanced.


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## monkeybum13 (14 September 2012)

millitiger said:



			This is why I don't like pessoas- either the horse is getting pulled in the mouth every stride if they try to take the contact forward OR to stop that, they drop behind the contact instead of carrying the rein forward./QUOTE]

This 

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## Archina (14 September 2012)

Auslander said:



			Are you sure you dont mean sidereins? A horse snatching the reins out of a novice riders hands to eat grass would be able to do so just as successfully if it were wearing draw reins, as they are held in the riders hands.
		
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Lol! Your totally right, my brain is just not working today  

Yea, ive never used draw reins, never seen the point and always thought it looked really severe but i think thats because ive never seen them used correctly. Did learn how to use them when training for my stage 3 though.


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## millitiger (14 September 2012)

Mearas said:



			I am glad that it has worked successfully for you and it was resolved in one lesson. For myself I always aim to have the horses weight out of the shoulders and them straight and balanced.
		
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It wasn't a lesson, I was riding them at home 

I also aim to have them off the forehand and balanced so I don't think you are alone there- I just chose to have a little help in the form of the draw rein to help show the horse what I wanted.

Some people like to use gadgets as and when they feel they are needed, some like to use a simple snaffle and cavesson and some like no bridle or saddle- as long as the horse is not being abused, hurt or put under undue pressure, I see no problem with any of the above


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## Roasted Chestnuts (14 September 2012)

Yes I have used them, very useful tool for certain issues.

Never used them for schooling just to sort out issues and avoid evasion.


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## BeesKnees (14 September 2012)

Yes i have used them for a short period of time. 

I like the fact that draw reins used correctly, merely set 'parameters' for a horse, and will only come into play if the horse opts to lift its head above the limits you have set. So to that effect they can be used as a therapeutic tool in a reasonably mild way. I do agree however that in inexperienced or unfair hands, those parameters can be set too low. 

I guess it helps if you are experienced in using two reins, to avoid the gradual tightening of the draw rein that others have described.


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## Slightlyconfused (14 September 2012)

I only use the pessoa on the long and low setting, as soon as they are working correctly the lines go slack......it's the same with draw reins


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## cptrayes (14 September 2012)

Wagtail said:



			you are over horsed and it is for safety.
		
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I will ignore the intended or unintentional insult in that statement.





			But these are the differences as I see them. With draw reins you are just hauling the head in.
		
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But not that one.

I am *not* "hauling the head in" when I use them. I am preventing upwards and outwards evasions.





			It does nothing for the back end or the back.
		
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And as long as you are riding with fixed reins as well, and ride properly, it does nothing to harm the back or the back end either.






			The head is not tucked in like it is with draw reins.
		
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The head does not have to be tucked in on draw reins, you write as if there is no alternative way to use them.


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## cptrayes (14 September 2012)

Mearas said:



			But it sometimes takes a lot of time and patience sadly, one thing many people don't have much of.
		
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Another person who thinks slower and more difficult automatically means "better" in horse training? 

I do not agree with that point of view, and draw reins, properly used, can save a horse from a lot of confusion which in my opinion can only be to the benefit of the horse and rider.


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## siennamum (14 September 2012)

cptrayes said:



			I will ignore the intended or unintentional insult in that statement.


Well at least you have been insulted in good company, you apparently along with many International SJ, dressage and event riders are all equally scared and overhorsed.
		
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## ChesnutsRoasting (14 September 2012)

siennamum said:





cptrayes said:



			I will ignore the intended or unintentional insult in that statement.


Well at least you have been insulted in good company, you apparently along with many International SJ, dressage and event riders are all equally scared and overhorsed.
		
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I've seen some 'corrections' used by pro riders that would make your grandmother weep. In any game, there are the good, the bad and the ugly. Pofessional riders are no different.
		
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## siennamum (14 September 2012)

blazingsaddles said:





siennamum said:



			I've seen some 'corrections' used by pro riders that would make your grandmother weep. In any game, there are the good, the bad and the ugly. Pofessional riders are no different.
		
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Yes I think we all have, I don't think that makes them overhorsed or afraid though. Wrong but not neccessarily scared.
		
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## Doogal (14 September 2012)

I was asked to ride in them at a riding school on 1 particular horse (I had about 20 years worth of lessons at this point) but that wasn't my choice

When I bought my own horse who was very spooky, high-headed and resistant I used them once out of desperation but decided I didn't like 'forced' feeling they gave me so threw them away.

After 2 years & a lot of schooling and although he is still high-headed and spooky by nature I have found that spurs are a better aid as they keep him listening to my leg and help me control his body rather just keeping his head down.

I understand why people would use them on dangerous horses (rearing/taking off etc) and I am sure in sensitive hands they may be a useful training tool but they're not really for me.


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## Wagtail (14 September 2012)

cptrayes said:



			I will ignore the intended or unintentional insult in that statement.
		
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Cptrayes, are you saying that nothing can over horse you? Because it can me. That was not meant as an insult. You ride huge warmbloods that sound far more horse than I generally ride. You sometimes need to use draw reins. I do not. IMO needing to use them means you are over horsed otherwise you would not need them. That does not mean you lack ability. Some horses are men's horses.


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## cptrayes (14 September 2012)

Wagtail said:



			Cptrayes, are you saying that nothing can over horse you? Because it can me. That was not meant as an insult. You ride huge warmbloods that sound far more horse than I generally ride. You sometimes need to use draw reins. I do not. IMO needing to use them means you are over horsed otherwise you would not need them. That does not mean you lack ability. Some horses are men's horses.
		
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I am saying that it is insulting to use a term which suggests strongly that one can only need to use draw reins if one is overhorsed in a message to be read by someone who has already told you that they used draw reins on their horse.

You did not say "often" or "usually". What you wrote was readable most easily as "anyone who needs draw reins is overhorsed" and I see from your further explanation that I was correct in reading it that way. 

 The conclusion I have come to is that you just don't understand the proper use of draw reins. I did not need to use them.  

I chose to use them as the most effective and humane way of explaining to my horse where his behaviour was unacceptable to me. 

You don't see that the way I use them is in any way preferable to your alternatives. I don't see the advantage to the horse or the rider of leaving a horse not understanding/accepting what you reasonably want it to do for as long as it takes for your preferred methods to work. 

I note with huge interest that you seem to find it acceptable for a man to get onto a horse and use his brute strength to control it, and not for a woman to take temporary and sensitively used advantage of draw reins. How very , very odd.


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## Wagtail (14 September 2012)

cptrayes said:



			I am saying that it is insulting to use a term which suggests strongly that one can only need to use draw reins if one is overhorsed in a message to be read by someone who has already told you that they used draw reins on their horse.

You did not say "often" or "usually". What you wrote was readable most easily as "anyone who needs draw reins is overhorsed" and I see from your further explanation that I was correct in reading it that way. 

 The conclusion I have come to is that you just don't understand the proper use of draw reins. I did not need to use them.  

I chose to use them as the most effective and humane way of explaining to my horse where his behaviour was unacceptable to me. 

You don't see that the way I use them is in any way preferable to your alternatives. I don't see the advantage to the horse or the rider of leaving a horse not understanding/accepting what you reasonably want it to do for as long as it takes for your preferred methods to work. 

I note with huge interest that you seem to find it acceptable for a man to get onto a horse and use his brute strength to control it, and not for a woman to take temporary and sensitively used advantage of draw reins. How very , very odd.
		
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Odd? It's about core strengh, not wrestling. There are all sizes/strengths of horse and all sizes/strengths of human. You explain your need/choice to use the draw reins on a horse that is using its strength and athletism against you. Draw reins give you the extra 'strength' and control to do this. However, they are not a good substitute for human 'feel'. You appear to think I battle with horses for many sessions to get them to understand. I do not. It can be a matter of only minutes. Just as fast as using any draw reins. That is why I honestly cannot see the need for them. However, if I were to over horse myself, (perhaps with a horse such as the one you describe, who knows?) then obviously I would be unable to do it that way. We all have different methods. This thread is asking for our opinions on draw reins. We don't have to all agree.


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## Goldenstar (14 September 2012)

I have never felt the need to wrestle with a horse in draw riens wagtail you may chose not to use them put to say everyone who uses them is over horsed is frankly silly.


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## Wagtail (15 September 2012)

Goldenstar said:



			I have never felt the need to wrestle with a horse in draw riens wagtail you may chose not to use them put to say everyone who uses them is over horsed is frankly silly.
		
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No, obviously, some people put them on as a quick fix or because they lack the skills to school the horse without them. So not all are over horsed. Look, I have never ever needed to use them, so what can I say? I have to try to envisage a scenario where I WOULD use them, and it is not for schooling because everything people have described they use them for, I have got over without them.  And it does not take a long time.  I HAVE used them under instruction from a trainer many years ago, but soon ditched them as they take away every bit of feel you have with a horse. But I DO know several top riders who use them, but that doesn't make it right. I think they could easily do without them.


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## Goldenstar (15 September 2012)

Wagtail said:



			No, obviously, some people put them on as a quick fix or because they lack the skills to school the horse without them. So not all are over horsed. Look, I have never ever needed to use them, so what can I say? I have to try to envisage a scenario where I WOULD use them, and it is not for schooling because everything people have described they use them for, I have got over without them.  And it does not take a long time.  I HAVE used them under instruction from a trainer many years ago, but soon ditched them as they take away every bit of feel you have with a horse. But I DO know several top riders who use them, but that doesn't make it right. I think they could easily do without them.
		
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They may have taken away your feel they would not take away mine .


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## Wagtail (15 September 2012)

Goldenstar said:



			They may have taken away your feel they would not take away mine .
		
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I'm talking about when you are actually using them. Not when they are removed. Horses do not have the same freedom of movement when in draw reins. You do not get the same 'feel' down the rein to correct things before they occur. I believe that when used by novices, they actually prevent the development of 'feel'. They prevent people developing the ability to solve schooling problems quickly and kindly without them. Everyone who advocates the use of draw reins seems to think they prevent you wrestling with a horse. I can honestly say I never wrestle with a horse. Most problems such as head tossing going into canter can be solved in one schooling session without them. You may have to correct the horse at the start of subsequent schooling sessions for a little while, but they soon pick it up. 

I think that lots of ground work is essential to allow horses to build up the appropriate muscles before ridden work commences. All too often horses throw their heads up because they lack the strength and balance to carry themselves properly. Draw reins do not give them that strength and balance. Used on such a horse, they can only do damage. They can mask the signs that a horse is struggling with the work.


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## cptrayes (15 September 2012)

Wagtail said:



			they take away every bit of feel you have with a horse..
		
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It is clear to me now that you simply don't know how to use them or when.


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## Wagtail (15 September 2012)

cptrayes said:



			It is clear to me now that you simply don't know how to use them or when.
		
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Or simply don't need them. 

Look, I am sure you are a very skilled horsewoman. We just have completely different training methods. Different ways of achieving the same thing.


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## Goldenstar (15 September 2012)

Honestly Wagtail I have no issues with feel when using draw riens , as for your point about the muscles development of course you have to be careful but then you see no issues with strapping a horse into a pessoa and lunging it where you have no physical feel for how much the horse is struggling because you are not on its back. When you want you can give a draw rien completely or in a couple of seconds  go from trot or canter into a free rien walk you cant do that with the horse in a Pessoa .
Of course novices should not use draw riens but we are not all novices.


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## Wagtail (15 September 2012)

I have yet to come across a horse that has been damaged by working long and low. When the horse works in a pessoa, it should be fitted so that the lines are loose when the horse works this way. I do not come across many horses who fight the pessoa so that the lines are tight, but when occasionally I do, they are not worked in it any more. It is only beneficial when the horse is working long and low and the lines are loose.

I have however come across several horses that have been left with bad backs and necks through the over use or misuse of draw reins. When I get on a horse for the first time I can tell immediately those that have been regularly ridden in draw reins. They present in one of two ways. Either they come behind the bit and hold themselves in a false outline, or more commonly, they are very strong and gobby. By over use or misuse, I mean working a horse in them for more than 10 - 15 minutes, jumping in them, or over bending the horse in them. I am sure that Cptrayes, Goldenstar, and others do not do this, but unfortunately, many people do.

And I still do not accept that they are needed.


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## cptrayes (15 September 2012)

Wagtail said:



			Or simply don't need them. 

Look, I am sure you are a very skilled horsewoman. We just have completely different training methods. Different ways of achieving the same thing.
		
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No, you just haven't come across a horse where they would be beneficial yet. 

You cannot cure every temperament issue, where they can be invaluable, by working long and low.


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## cptrayes (15 September 2012)

Wagtail said:



			When I get on a horse for the first time I can tell immediately those that have been regularly ridden in draw reins. They present in one of two ways. Either they come behind the bit and hold themselves in a false outline, or more commonly, they are very strong and gobby.
		
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The horse I lost earlier this year was strong and gobby. My hunter is strong and gobby. One had never been in draw reins, the other exhibited strong and gobby behaviour long before I used them on him for week to train him not to drop his back and rush in walk.

My young dressage horse has always been very happy to offer me behind the verticle and has to be sent out. He had never been in draw reins before offering this way of going,  and was broken using a pessoa.


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## Wagtail (16 September 2012)

cptrayes said:



			No, you just haven't come across a horse where they would be beneficial yet.
		
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That may be the case. Though I expect there are two horses here that your would have certainly put in draw reins. They have been done to death in them in the past. Both of them take a while to get nice and light and are very strong and gobby. Both are WBs started on the continent.

ETA the first arrived with the owner riding her in draw reins under instruction. The trainer, a dressage judge, was unable to get her to work in a correct outline without them. I had her working correctly within two sessions without them. Unfortunately she still gets gobby after her small owner rides her as she needs a lot of core strength to hold together (owner is 60 and her ex trainer was nearly 70 and so inability to ride her well is more of a strength issue hence the use of the draw reins).

The second was ridden in draw reins twice this week by the owner, and has suddenly developed a bad back. Immediately after the sessions. Now has to have time off. But he was being ridden overbent in them, and so I guess, incorrectly.


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## Wagtail (16 September 2012)

cptrayes said:



			The horse I lost earlier this year was strong and gobby. My hunter is strong and gobby. One had never been in draw reins, the other exhibited strong and gobby behaviour long before I used them on him for week to train him not to drop his back and rush in walk.

My young dressage horse has always been very happy to offer me behind the verticle and has to be sent out. He had never been in draw reins before offering this way of going,  and was broken using a pessoa.
		
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You are right. There are many reasons a horse can go this way. Is it that the strong and gobby types just start off that way and therefore they are more likely to have been schooled in draw reins? Chicken and egg syndrome maybe?


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## Hollywood (16 September 2012)

I worked for Robert Hall many years ago, a trainer, way before his time IMO. I feel very lucky to have witnessed the 'Fulmer' method of training a horse. the Classical way of training and schooling the horse is the way forward. Draw reins and similar artificial aids have no place in training horses. What is needed is more knowledge and the time it takes to train a horse to be the best it can be. Where is the satisfaction of rushing a horse by tying him down to in an unnatural outline. The satisfaction is correctly and sympathetically training a horse in a classical way. When hopefully everyone today is outlawing the use of rolkur, why are we still using draw reins?


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## Auslander (16 September 2012)

Hollywood said:



			I worked for Robert Hall many years ago, a trainer, way before his time IMO. I feel very lucky to have witnessed the 'Fulmer' method of training a horse. the Classical way of training and schooling the horse is the way forward. Draw reins and similar artificial aids have no place in training horses. What is needed is more knowledge and the time it takes to train a horse to be the best it can be. Where is the satisfaction of rushing a horse by tying him down to in an unnatural outline. The satisfaction is correctly and sympathetically training a horse in a classical way. When hopefully everyone today is outlawing the use of rolkur, why are we still using draw reins?
		
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Whilst I agree with most of your post - the last sentence annoys me. perhaps it should read "why are we still misusing draw reins". When used correctly, by an accomplished rider, they have their uses.

Very interesting article here about their use http://www.classicaldressage.co.uk/html/auxiliary_reins.html


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## cptrayes (16 September 2012)

Hollywood said:



			I worked for Robert Hall many years ago, a trainer, way before his time IMO. I feel very lucky to have witnessed the 'Fulmer' method of training a horse. the Classical way of training and schooling the horse is the way forward. Draw reins and similar artificial aids have no place in training horses. What is needed is more knowledge and the time it takes to train a horse to be the best it can be. Where is the satisfaction of rushing a horse by tying him down to in an unnatural outline. The satisfaction is correctly and sympathetically training a horse in a classical way. When hopefully everyone today is outlawing the use of rolkur, why are we still using draw reins?
		
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And every single horse born is a complete angel until people spoil it?  Tell that to everyone currently dealing with a feisty five or a silly six.

And even if that were so, there is no place for taking help on a horse that is temperamentally very difficult and has been made that way by its previous training?

You seem to me to be yet another person who has only seen them misused,  and therefore sees no benefit, ever, in putting them on a horse.


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## Hollywood (16 September 2012)

I'm sorry if you were annoyed by my last sentence - that was not my intension at all, but merely my opinion. However, I would say that if a person is an accomplished rider they wouldn't need to use draw reins IMO. It has been an age old debate and the link about Classical Riding shows as with 'the old masters' some used them, some didn't. I would just say that I was taught in a way that did not, and would never condone the use of draw reins and in that I believe wholeheartedly. If others disagree that is fine, they have their opinions also. .


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## Hollywood (16 September 2012)

Mearas said:



			Why bother with any of it? 

If you are a novice rider you should not use any gadgets, as an experienced rider you have the seat, aids and knowledge not to need or to bother with them. Maybe there's an argument for using them to keep you safe but then why put yourself in an unsafe situation? 

All gadgets are is a short cut to training, so assess the problem, and then spend the time working it through. If you cannot work the problem through find a trainer who can help you.
		
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/\ This /\


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## cptrayes (16 September 2012)

Originally Posted by Mearas

Why bother with any of it?

If you are a novice rider you should not use any gadgets, as an experienced rider you have the seat, aids and knowledge not to need or to bother with them. Maybe there's an argument for using them to keep you safe but then why put yourself in an unsafe situation?

All gadgets are is a short cut to training, so assess the problem, and then spend the time working it through. If you cannot work the problem through find a trainer who can help you.
		
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Hollywood said:



			/\ This /\
		
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How incredibly naive the pair of you are


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## Roasted Chestnuts (16 September 2012)

I agree with CPTRAYES that is a very naive look at things.

I have used draw reins to solve issues and I have to say on the last horse i used them on I used them for two or three weeks then they never went on again. Problem solved and we moved on once horse realised they couldnt get away with what they were doing.

Ive been riding for 20+ years and had many horses of all shapes and sizes and coming from an experienced horsey family I can say that drawreins have a purpose but it may not be what many people see them used for IE forcing a horse into an outline. I have NEVER used them for that.


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## The wife (16 September 2012)

Thanks for the replies guys... A very interesting and thought provoking discussion... Next question...

 What made you use them?  Was it influence from other people? Be it top riders, instructors, friends, even the Internet?  How did you learn to use them?


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## kirstykate (17 September 2012)

Yes we have been influenced by other people, but we use them correctly.  Simply because time is money when you are producing/re-schooling horses  A horse is to be ridden, so needs to be trained that way.


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## Nightmare before Christmas (17 September 2012)

Tina Fletcher uses draw reins for flat and jumping. She did a brill demo at blue chip on using them while jump training over xpoles in front of a large stand of people which was brave! I totally agree with her and can see how they help. We guide our athletes into movements to help improve them so why not our horse?


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## cptrayes (17 September 2012)

The wife said:



			Thanks for the replies guys... A very interesting and thought provoking discussion... Next question...

 What made you use them?  Was it influence from other people? Be it top riders, instructors, friends, even the Internet?  How did you learn to use them?
		
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I saw other people using them, some incorrectly .  I thought "well that makes a heck of a lot more sense to me than trying to stop a headchucker with a martingale and turning its neck upside down".   I have used them for short periods instead of a martingale ever since, on horses which have developed a habit of throwing up their heads to do a transition or to evade being controlled by their rider. I have never used them, and will never use them, to create an outline.


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## Uraeus (17 September 2012)

They do have a place in training. I have seen them used on many different horses each with different effects. One person I know schools in them because if they don't, the horses head is so high in the air, even with a martingale that it's just impossible to do anything with. This horse does not have a training issue - its just psychotic. The draws keep the horse focussed, they are not to give bend or an outline as the horse works in a natural one anyway. I believe it all depends on the horse and the hand. If used correctly and not to bend a horse so far its head is between its forelegs, then yes they do have a place. The trouble is, people use them as fast tracks to an outline which just causes a horse to strain muscles and resist against reign aids.


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## jennyexford (20 September 2012)

Good hands and seat on a very sharp horse, no problem! Just novice riders or excuse for lack of schooling never! Again everything is a tool if used correctly!


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## cptrayes (23 September 2012)

cptrayes said:
			
		


			I note with huge interest that you seem to find it acceptable for a man to get onto a horse and use his brute strength to control it, and not for a woman to take temporary and sensitively used advantage of draw reins. How very , very odd.
		
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Wagtail said:



			Odd? It's about core strengh, not wrestling. There are all sizes/strengths of horse and all sizes/strengths of human. You explain your need/choice to use the draw reins on a horse that is using its strength and athletism against you. Draw reins give you the extra 'strength' and control to do this. However, they are not a good substitute for human 'feel'.
		
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This exchange has been bugging me for days, as you can tell from the dates, because I knew it was wrong but I could not immediately find the flaw in it. It came to me when I was drag hunting my "man's horse" yesterday.

The discussion came from Wagtail saying that some horses are just men's horses. If we accept that, then we are basically saying that some horse will need more strength to manage than others, and Wagtail agrees but says this is "core strength" in a man, and therefore not the same as women using draw reins on a man's horse.

The fallacy in this argument, of course, is that it is the _horse_ which is strong, requiring a stronger rider, which is what makes it a "man's horse" in the first place. Therefore the pull exerted _by the horse_ will be identical whether the rider has draw reins or  is a stronger rider without them.

The argument, if you accept that, is simply whether draw reins, as Wagtail insists, remove feeling. They certainly don't for me, and indeed I would say that one of the measures of whether you are using them properly or not is if you do still have feeling on your ordinary reins and can ride effectively with two reins.

It is also a fallacy to believe that the issue is solely to do with strength. The placement of the "pully" which gives a 2 to 1 strength increase to any tension on the draw rein compared to an ordinary rein, is perfectly placed to obtain a neck shape which will radically increase control of the horse. It's not the strength assistance which I use, primarily, as I am tall and very strong for a woman, it's the ease with which it is possible to prevent evasive behaviour on the part of the horse by placement of the mouth in relation to the hands.

If you accept that, then they become no more of an evil than any other gadget placed on a horse to restrict its movement away from undesireable directions, like lunging in a Pessoa.   Just like a Pessoa, they can be abused. I don't think that is any reason for a blanket condemnation.


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## lula (23 September 2012)

cptrayes said:



			This exchange has been bugging me for days, as you can tell from the dates, because I knew it was wrong but I could not immediately find the flaw in it. It came to me when I was drag hunting my "man's horse" yesterday.

The discussion came from Wagtail saying that some horses are just men's horses. If we accept that, then we are basically saying that some horse will need more strength to manage than others, and Wagtail agrees but says this is "core strength" in a man, and therefore not the same as women using draw reins on a man's horse.

The fallacy in this argument, of course, is that it is the _horse_ which is strong, requiring a stronger rider, which is what makes it a "man's horse" in the first place. Therefore the pull exerted _by the horse_ will be identical whether the rider has draw reins or  is a stronger rider without them.

The argument, if you accept that, is simply whether draw reins, as Wagtail insists, remove feeling. They certainly don't for me, and indeed I would say that one of the measures of whether you are using them properly or not is if you do still have feeling on your ordinary reins and can ride effectively with two reins.

It is also a fallacy to believe that the issue is solely to do with strength. The placement of the "pully" which gives a 2 to 1 strength increase to any tension on the draw rein compared to an ordinary rein, is perfectly placed to obtain a neck shape which will radically increase control of the horse. It's not the strength assistance which I use, primarily, as I am tall and very strong for a woman, it's the ease with which it is possible to prevent evasive behaviour on the part of the horse by placement of the mouth in relation to the hands.

If you accept that, then they become no more of an evil than any other gadget placed on a horse to restrict its movement away from undesireable directions, like lunging in a Pessoa.   Just like a Pessoa, they can be abused. I don't think that is any reason for a blanket condemnation.
		
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intelligently and eloquently written.


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## Wagtail (23 September 2012)

Cptrayes, how often do you use draw reins on any one horse? Is it just the once or twice to 'correct' evasive action, or do you use them on a regular basis with each/some horses?


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## Sirreal (23 September 2012)

Yes, I do use them for hacking on my 6 ye old ISH. She is very, very nappy - the more you tell her off, the more she will rear, and she regularly gets to the stage where she is dangerous. I hope to only have to use them for a few weeks though. I will only school for 5-10 minutes in them, and again this is to stop her silliness. She does have the ability to go very nicely on some days so she isn't in pain (everything checked  ) just a bit too clever!


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## Wagtail (24 September 2012)

cptrayes said:



			This exchange has been bugging me for days, as you can tell from the dates, because I knew it was wrong but I could not immediately find the flaw in it. It came to me when I was drag hunting my "man's horse" yesterday.

The discussion came from Wagtail saying that some horses are just men's horses. If we accept that, then we are basically saying that some horse will need more strength to manage than others, and Wagtail agrees but says this is "core strength" in a man, and therefore not the same as women using draw reins on a man's horse.

The fallacy in this argument, of course, is that it is the _horse_ which is strong, requiring a stronger rider, which is what makes it a "man's horse" in the first place. Therefore the pull exerted _by the horse_ will be identical whether the rider has draw reins or  is a stronger rider without them.
		
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Of course it is not identical. One force (the draw rein) is achored and provides leverage and exerts a force that is not only stronger and less flexible than the rider's hand, but is 90 degrees different to it in direction! So competely different to a man using his core strength to influence the horse.

In regards to some horse's being 'men's horses', then would you also argue that some horses are not adult's horses? Whilst it is true that some large horses can be effectively ridden by a child, many cannot.




			The argument, if you accept that, is simply whether draw reins, as Wagtail insists, remove feeling. They certainly don't for me, and indeed I would say that one of the measures of whether you are using them properly or not is if you do still have feeling on your ordinary reins and can ride effectively with two reins.
		
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The question is, do draw reins deminish 'feel'? Personally, I think that they not only deminish it, but if used before a rider is fully accomplished, can prevent the full development of it in the first place. If we go back to your example of a horse throwing its head up in the canter transition and you using draw reins to cure this, why put the horse in the position where it feels the need to throw its head up in the first place? If the horse is prepared properly so that it has the strength and balance to cope with the transitions and then the rider ensures that it is properly 'through' before asking for the transition, why the need for draw reins? In fact, is it not 'feel' that enables a rider to tell if a horse is through? IME when a horse does this, it is my error. I have not ensured that he is through and soft enough to make the transition. No need for draw reins to prevent this if you use your sense of feel. Draw reins simply remove the need for you to listen to your 'feel' and are therefore IME detrimental to it.




			It is also a fallacy to believe that the issue is solely to do with strength. The placement of the "pully" which gives a 2 to 1 strength increase to any tension on the draw rein compared to an ordinary rein, is perfectly placed to obtain a neck shape which will radically increase control of the horse. It's not the strength assistance which I use, primarily, as I am tall and very strong for a woman, it's the ease with which it is possible to prevent evasive behaviour on the part of the horse by placement of the mouth in relation to the hands.
		
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Now this is where I have a real problem with your use of draw reins and your argument that they do not deminish your 'feel'. Feel is about the split second sensing and reaction when a horse is going to evade and preventing it before it happens, rather than physically stopping it because you have a 'safety net' in the form of draw reins. 




			If you accept that, then they become no more of an evil than any other gadget placed on a horse to restrict its movement away from undesireable directions, like lunging in a Pessoa.   Just like a Pessoa, they can be abused. I don't think that is any reason for a blanket condemnation.
		
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I accept that in your correct use of draw reins you probably do not cause any harm to the horse's way of going. However, I still think that you would be able to cure and prevent evasions much more effectively without them as you are obviously an accomplished rider. In an ideal world, we would not use gadgets. However, I think that if you are lunging a horse then you need to ensure that they work the correct muscles and not many would naturally work in a beneficial outline so gadgets are necessary. However, when ridden, then the human rider is a much more effective tool for working a horse than any gadget can be.


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## I.Camilla (24 September 2012)

I don't really have an opinion on people using them but this saying has always stuck in my head:

"Draw reins should only be used by professionals... But professionals shouldn't need them". 

The quote is something like that anyway... 
I have a friend who swears by them on her ex racehorse. She says the same as some of the replies on here... 10 mins of them once a month is better than an hour battling a schooling session!

Only problem is, she put them on for the start of a lesson with her instructor. The instructor told her not to be so ridiculous, took them off and rode the horse herself. 10 mins and the horse was going like a dream without the use of the draw reins.


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## KatB (24 September 2012)

I use them semi regularly. I use them very loose, as an alternative to a martingale when hacking out my very sharp mare. They never come into action unless she tries to stick her ears up my nose, and work very effectively in reminding her what is acceptable. They are teamed with a nathe snaffle and a cavesson noseband! I much prefer using them to a martingale as a martingale has a much harsher action IMHO when a horse decides to throw its head. They are also entirely dependant on where my hands are, so I can soften the action even when she is being a complete moose! I hate Market harboroughs, and only use a martingale (loosely!) when jumping


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## Wagtail (24 September 2012)

I.Camilla said:



			I don't really have an opinion on people using them but this saying has always stuck in my head:

"Draw reins should only be used by professionals... But professionals shouldn't need them". 

The quote is something like that anyway... 
I have a friend who swears by them on her ex racehorse. She says the same as some of the replies on here... 10 mins of them once a month is better than an hour battling a schooling session!

Only problem is, she put them on for the start of a lesson with her instructor. The instructor told her not to be so ridiculous, took them off and rode the horse herself. 10 mins and the horse was going like a dream without the use of the draw reins.
		
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Exactly!


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## Wagtail (24 September 2012)

Sirreal said:



			Yes, I do use them for hacking on my 6 ye old ISH. She is very, very nappy - the more you tell her off, the more she will rear, and she regularly gets to the stage where she is dangerous. I hope to only have to use them for a few weeks though. I will only school for 5-10 minutes in them, and again this is to stop her silliness. She does have the ability to go very nicely on some days so she isn't in pain (everything checked  ) just a bit too clever!
		
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I do understand people who use them hacking to help control a horse that is being silly and dangerous. Though to be truthful, I never hack out a horse that is dangerous. Not any more. Life's too short as it is!


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## Sparkles (24 September 2012)

I do...though not in the typical way. I use them for lunging....


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## cptrayes (24 September 2012)

Wagtail said:



			Cptrayes, how often do you use draw reins on any one horse? Is it just the once or twice to 'correct' evasive action, or do you use them on a regular basis with each/some horses?
		
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The maximum time that I have used them for on any one horse is two weeks. I would not normally need to use them again on the same horse.


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## cptrayes (24 September 2012)

ChristmasSparkles said:



			I do...though not in the typical way. I use them for lunging....







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But they aren't acting as draw reins, there is no pulley action. You are simply using them instead of using a long rope of any other kind.


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## Sparkles (24 September 2012)

cptrayes said:



			But they aren't acting as draw reins, there is no pulley action. You are simply using them instead of using a long rope of any other kind.
		
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I realise that....it was meant light heartedly.


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## cptrayes (24 September 2012)

Wagtail said:



			Of course it is not identical. One force (the draw rein) is achored and provides leverage and exerts a force that is not only stronger and less flexible than the rider's hand, but is 90 degrees different to it in direction! So competely different to a man using his core strength to influence the horse.
		
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The whole point is that it is in a different direction. That's what makes it so effective *without excessive force*.  It is not anchored. It is not 90 degrees, more like 30, and it is as flexible as the hand at the end of the rein.




			In regards to some horse's being 'men's horses', then would you also argue that some horses are not adult's horses? Whilst it is true that some large horses can be effectively ridden by a child, many cannot.
		
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  There is a range of horses that require riders of a range of strength to manage them. 





			The question is, do draw reins deminish 'feel'? Personally, I think that they not only deminish it, but if used before a rider is fully accomplished, can prevent the full development of it in the first place.
		
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Now I want to scream    This whole argument has been that it is wrong to say that draw reins are never correct just because they are often wrongly used. No one has ever disputed that this kind of use is incorrect.





			If we go back to your example of a horse throwing its head up in the canter transition and you using draw reins to cure this, why put the horse in the position where it feels the need to throw its head up in the first place?
		
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You have not ridden the  horses which I have ridden if you think that I put them in a position where it "felt the need to do that" when it was avoidable. 




			If the horse is prepared properly so that it has the strength and balance to cope with the transitions and then the rider ensures that it is properly 'through' before asking for the transition, why the need for draw reins?
		
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Because not all horses are angels. Because not many horses have had good training before they arrive with me. Because some horses are built upside down like llamas. Because I believe that is is often better to train the horse from on its back where I can feel what it is really doing. Because I do not believe that all horses taught super canter transitions with a pessoa on can automatically produce the same thing with an additional 15% of weight on its back in the form of a rider.





			Now this is where I have a real problem with your use of draw reins and your argument that they do not deminish your 'feel'. Feel is about the split second sensing and reaction when a horse is going to evade and preventing it before it happens, rather than physically stopping it because you have a 'safety net' in the form of draw reins.
		
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The one does not preclude the other. I have good feel just like you do. But I can't for the life of me see what is so great about having to suddenly move my hands on its mouth and send it on with my seat and/or legs when I sense that it is about to throw its head back in my face, when I can prevent it from happening in the first place while I concentrate on sitting quietly and using my hands softly.





			I accept that in your correct use of draw reins you probably do not cause any harm to the horse's way of going. However, I still think that you would be able to cure and prevent evasions much more effectively without them as you are obviously an accomplished rider.
		
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I disagree, the 30% change of angle on the pressure on the bit with draw reins is often spectacularly effective and it is something that a rider cannot physically achieve.  

I cannot see the harm in taking help when it is available. 




			In an ideal world, we would not use gadgets.
		
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You use one I would not put on a horse of mine. We have different views. I personally do not want my horses moving with their heads a foot off the floor as you have previously described. For me, that does not help the horse develop the right muscles to carry a rider with his head where it should be, it just artificially stretches muscles which the horse needs to have a lot shorter in order to hold a saddle and rider. It might perhaps be beneficial as a warm-up exercise, but as a builder of the right musculature to carry a saddle and rider? Not in my book. 





			However, I think that if you are lunging a horse then you need to ensure that they work the correct muscles and not many would naturally work in a beneficial outline so gadgets are necessary.
		
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I do not believe in lunging at all. Other than to test to see if a horse is sound, or get the first minutes of fizz out of a fresh horse, I never send a horse round and round in circles on a rope. 





			However, when ridden, then the human rider is a much more effective tool for working a horse than any gadget can be.
		
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In my view, a saddle and a bridle are as much a gadget as properly used draw reins. All any of them do, when properly fitted and used,  is provide help to the rider in communicating what they want to the horse.


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## cyberhorse (24 September 2012)

They are a useful aid when used as part of an overall training regime. I don't use them for flatwork as I want him to go long and low and be in a soft flexible outline. This is my personal preference for this particular horse as it encourages him to use himself correctly within each exercise. If I was to use draw reins on the flat then I personally find it would be more difficult to prevent him from becoming too rigid in his neck and get him to relax and use his back. He was ridden by the previous novice owner in a market H and I found he had been leaning on this and not using himself properly - when I removed this "crutch" he could not carry himself in most movements.

However when on the beach and when doing small jumping exercises I do use elasticated draw reins as if excited he'll throw his head and run. He was jumped in this style for many years by a top UK showjumper, however as he is built hollow this is really not good for him in the long term. Despite many sessions for re-schooling and lessons with top UK trainers (also trying many bits and various set ups/techniques), the general consensus is that he should be jumped in draw reins schooling over small fences at home to prevent him returning to old habits. He then jumps bigger tracks and competes without them. I would point out here he is vastly improved thanks to BOTH the long and low work I do and the occasional use of draw reins.

Hence I can see both sides of the argument. They do seem to be used too readily rather than in a considered fashion, however I feel there are some instances when other options/methods cannot achieve the same results and this can also be detrimental to the horse.


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## Wagtail (24 September 2012)

cptrayes said:



			The whole point is that it is in a different direction. That's what makes it so effective *without excessive force*.  It is not anchored. It is not 90 degrees, more like 30, and it is as flexible as the hand at the end of the rein.
		
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So you must use the reins attached at the sides rather than between the front legs? Otherwise the angle would be close to 90 degrees as here (halfway down page) http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=482971&page=2

I dispute the point that they are as flexible as the hand. They cannot possibly be due to being attached at two ends (one end at the girth, the other at the hand.)




  There is a range of horses that require riders of a range of strength to manage them.
		
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 now I'm confused. I thought you were disputing the point that some horses are 'men's horses'? I was simply saying that if you don't agree with that, then you must also think that all size and strength of horse can be ridden by children. It's the same principle.




			Now I want to scream    This whole argument has been that it is wrong to say that draw reins are never correct just because they are often wrongly used. No one has ever disputed that this kind of use is incorrect.
		
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No my argument is that they are unnecessary, not that they are incorrect. What is the correct way of schooling any horse is down to opinion.





			You have not ridden the  horses which I have ridden if you think that I put them in a position where it "felt the need to do that" when it was avoidable.
		
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My argument is that if a horse is working properly 'through' it is virtually impossible for them to throw their head up or at least it would make it harder for the horse to throw his head up than to make a clean transition. I am saying that the horses that do that are not working through properly. This can be down to not having the balance or strength as well as rider error.




			Because not all horses are angels.
		
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You think horses throw their heads up because they are naughty?




			Because not many horses have had good training before they arrive with me.
		
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Then show them the way without draw reins.




			Because some horses are built upside down like llamas.
		
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This is the worst possible reason to strap them in draw reins. They need to have their musculature changed before we demand clean changes. They have to have the 'tools' to perform correctly. Using draw reins just forces a horse that is not equipped to go correctly.




			Because I believe that is is often better to train the horse from on its back where I can feel what it is really doing. Because I do not believe that all horses taught super canter transitions with a pessoa on can automatically produce the same thing with an additional 15% of weight on its back in the form of a rider.
		
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Do you not do any groundwork at all? What about long reining? I understand very well why some people dislike lunging. I think it is invaluable, but do understand the arguments against it. I would not get on a horse to school it without working on its top line first. Maybe that is why I haven't had much of a problem with horses ears in my face? I get on it to hack or do straight lines but not schooling until I have prepared it with groundwork first.





			The one does not preclude the other. I have good feel just like you do. But I can't for the life of me see what is so great about having to suddenly move my hands on its mouth and send it on with my seat and/or legs when I sense that it is about to throw its head back in my face, when I can prevent it from happening in the first place while I concentrate on sitting quietly and using my hands softly.
		
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Personally, I think hands should be fluid and not fixed. They need to react to what the horse is doing or thinking about doing. But never busy and fiddly.





			I disagree, the 30% change of angle on the pressure on the bit with draw reins is often spectacularly effective and it is something that a rider cannot physically achieve.  

I cannot see the harm in taking help when it is available.
		
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Help which I am sure you don't actually need.




			You use one I would not put on a horse of mine. We have different views. I personally do not want my horses moving with their heads a foot off the floor as you have previously described. For me, that does not help the horse develop the right muscles to carry a rider with his head where it should be, it just artificially stretches muscles which the horse needs to have a lot shorter in order to hold a saddle and rider. It might perhaps be beneficial as a warm-up exercise, but as a builder of the right musculature to carry a saddle and rider? Not in my book.
		
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I agree we will have to agree to differ on this one.


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## cptrayes (24 September 2012)

Wagtail said:



			So you must use the reins attached at the sides rather than between the front legs? Otherwise the angle would be close to 90 degrees as here (halfway down page) http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=482971&page=2

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The difference between the angle from the mouth to the hand where the rein would normally pull and the attachment to the girth where it pulls with draw reins is, when I use them, between 30 and 45 degrees.  The rider in that picture has their hands very high and the horse is tense and "back at the rider".  He is, in fact, being held on the draw reins and the proper reins are loose, which is exactly how NOT to use them and why his neck looks so tense and set.

If the rider dropped their hands to somewhere nearer normal and the horse was walking forwards calmly with his head in a more natural place, the angle would be around 30  and certainly not more than 45 degrees.





			I dispute the point that they are as flexible as the hand. They cannot possibly be due to being attached at two ends (one end at the girth, the other at the hand.)
		
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They are as flexible as the hand at the end. Ordinary reins and draw reins are both attached at one end - one to the bit and the other to the girth or girth or saddle d's. Draw reins allow the horse to move his mouth just as fixed reins do. I do not understand why you do not think the arrangement is flexible. 




			now I'm confused. I thought you were disputing the point that some horses are 'men's horses'?
		
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Of course not. I was simply explaining how bemused I am that you think it is OK for a man to use his additional strength on a "man's horse" but not acceptable for  a woman to use draw reins, properly, to achieve a very similar result.




			No my argument is that they are unnecessary, not that they are incorrect.
		
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And we disagree on exactly that point. I do accept that they may not be strictly "necessary" but I fail to see why people want to make a job harder than it needs to be when help is available.




			My argument is that if a horse is working properly 'through' it is virtually impossible for them to throw their head up or at least it would make it harder for the horse to throw his head up than to make a clean transition. I am saying that the horses that do that are not working through properly. This can be down to not having the balance or strength as well as rider error.
		
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But you don't accept that there are other reasons than lack of balance, lack of strength and rider error for a horse to behave that way.

And there we have a fundamental disagreement which we can never resolve. 





			You think horses {sometimes} throw their heads up because they are naughty?
		
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You _*don't*_?????????





			Then show them the way without draw reins.
		
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Why?

I have already explained that the positioning of the pull on the bit makes is much easier for the rider to do this with draw reins; often kinder on the horse's mouth and always with more ability for the rider to stay balanced and sensitive and in harmony with the horse.

I take help when it helps me.




			This is the worst possible reason to strap them in draw reins.
		
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Here you go again!  I don't "strap" any horse into draw reins.




			They need to have their musculature changed before we demand clean changes.
		
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And again, you are back on your old argument that no horse misbehaves for any reason than lack of training and/or physical ability. We fundamentally disagree on this point. 





			Using draw reins just forces a horse that is not equipped to go correctly.
		
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No it does not. Yes again you make the assumption that draw reins are only being used on horses which are not physically able to do what is being asked of them. 

Draw reins, properly used, stop a horse from taking an outline that we find undesireable, which is EXACTLY what you are doing when you lunge you horses in a pessoa in preparation for taking a rider. 




			Maybe that is why I haven't had much of a problem with horses ears in my face?
		
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The horses whose ears I have had in my face have always been the ones which someone else ruined before I got them. The ones I break myself don't do it. I can happily accept that you are a better rider than me, but that is no reason for ME to make life harder for myself if there is help available which does not damage the horse.





			Personally, I think hands should be fluid and not fixed. They need to react to what the horse is doing or thinking about doing. But never busy and fiddly.
		
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Aggggggggggggggggghhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I really am screaming now. Why on earth do you assume that the hands are fixed just because the rider is holding two pairs of reins??????


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## Wagtail (24 September 2012)

I really am not trying to annoy you, Cptrayes. But to answer a couple of your points:

No, I do not believe that a horse throws its head up during transitions because it is being naughty, ever. I believe horses can be naughty in hand, can be naughty when napping (sometimes, but not always), but never naughty when throwing its head up during transitions.

I think that 99% of ridden schooling problems and evasions are due to the horse either not understanding (rider error), pain, imbalance,or lack of strength.

You query the fact that I seem to think they are used on horses that are not physically able to perform correctly, yet the main example you gave was an off the track thoroughbred throwing its head up during the canter transitions. 
Of course it will do that if someone gets straight on without preparing them through groundwork so that they can cope with basic stuff like circles without the weight of a rider first.

I say strapping them into draw reins because draw reins are straps which force the horse to keep its head within the limits required by the rider.


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## siennamum (24 September 2012)

I am a bit confused. Surely when you ride in draw reins and you know what you are doing you can have the horse working in an uphill frame, a long frame or whatever, they don't affect the communication with the mouth unless you really take hold, which would only happen if the  horse is pratting about. They are a bit like a flash, more to prevent an evasion and so not in effect unless the horse is evading, which happens on occasion with most mortal and non superhuman riders. The rest of the time they are doing nothing.

A pessoa on the other hand is pretty fixed. You can during a session work the horse in the frame you decide at the start biut cannot respond in an instant while the horse is working in response to how the horse is going (in the way you could with draw reins) In effect - surely out of the 2 gadgets a pessoa is the most fixed and will set the horse in a false outline.

Incidentally it is entirely possible to get a horse working properly with just a lunge rein and no gadgets at all, you just have to have them properly forward and attentive.


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## Wagtail (24 September 2012)

siennamum said:



			I am a bit confused. Surely when you ride in draw reins and you know what you are doing you can have the horse working in an uphill frame, a long frame or whatever, they don't affect the communication with the mouth unless you really take hold, which would only happen if the  horse is pratting about. They are a bit like a flash, more to prevent an evasion and so not in effect unless the horse is evading, which happens on occasion with most mortal and non superhuman riders. The rest of the time they are doing nothing.

A pessoa on the other hand is pretty fixed. You can during a session work the horse in the frame you decide at the start biut cannot respond in an instant while the horse is working in response to how the horse is going (in the way you could with draw reins) In effect - surely out of the 2 gadgets a pessoa is the most fixed and will set the horse in a false outline.
		
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We are not comparing the same thing. For about the tenth time, riding and lunging are competely different. When riding, the rider acts upon the horse to acheive the impulsion and shape required. Not so possible on the lunge.



			Incidentally it is entirely possible to get a horse working properly with just a lunge rein and no gadgets at all, you just have to have them properly forward and attentive.
		
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With some horses, yes. Especially those that are already well schooled and muscled correctly, but not your average off the track race horse!


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## siennamum (24 September 2012)

Wagtail said:



			We are not comparing the same thing. For about the tenth time, riding and lunging are competely different. When riding, the rider acts upon the horse to acheive the impulsion and shape required. Not so possible on the lunge.


With some horses, yes. Especially those that are already well schooled and muscled correctly, but not your average off the track race horse!
		
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Maybe that's where we disagree. I think the objectives when riding and lunging are very similar (with the key difference being the riders weight).


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## Nightmare before Christmas (24 September 2012)

Whats the big deal in arguing over draw reins? Either use them or dont?


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## cptrayes (24 September 2012)

Wagtail said:



			No, I do not believe that a horse throws its head up during transitions because it is being naughty, ever.
		
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And the Princess kissed the frog who turned into a handsome Prince, they got married and lived happily ever after 

I get the problem with this argument now. You live on a different planet from me    







			I think that 99% of ridden schooling problems and evasions are due to the horse either not understanding (rider error), pain, imbalance,or lack of strength.
		
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So do I, except for a fair proportion of feisty fives and silly sixes who evade from sheer high spirits a fair bit more often than that. But even if it was only 1% I still fail to see why I shouldn't take a helpful hand when it's available with the 1%





			You query the fact that I seem to think they are used on horses that are not physically able to perform correctly, yet the main example you gave was an off the track thoroughbred throwing its head up during the canter transitions.
		
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Exactly. And I dispute that all those OTT TB's that do throw their heads up in a canter transition during correct retraining lack the physical ability to do it properly. Because when I put draw reins on the ones that I think ARE capable, but which are choosing not to out of lack of understanding that they can, or out of wilfulness, then lo and behold - they CAN do it.  And it is with great ease that one can persuade them permanently of their ability to do it and stop using the draw reins. 




			I say strapping them into draw reins because draw reins are straps which force the horse to keep its head within the limits required by the rider.
		
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So are reins, in bad hands or on a wilful horse. I don't see you saying that no-one should use reins?

And not only that, but  you are happy to put yours into a contraption that encloses their whole body, whilst having no feel as a rider (because you are not on it) for what the horse is doing, and only able to see one side of it.  Your dual standards are beginning to baffle me, they really are.


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## cptrayes (24 September 2012)

badgermyers said:



			Whats the big deal in arguing over draw reins? Either use them or dont?
		
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Yes but Badgermyers so far those of us who believe that they can be a useful tool have been told that we only need them because we are all overhorsed and because we don't know how to train a horse properly.

So we continue the argument until Wagtail agrees to differ, as I am happy to do at any time she stops effectively accusing me of either abusing the horses I train  or being a useless rider 

Besides, it's been a foul day and I have nothing better to do


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## Nightmare before Christmas (24 September 2012)

cptrayes said:



			Yes but Badgermyers so far those of us who believe that they can be a useful tool have been told that we only need them because we are all overhorsed and because we don't know how to train a horse properly.

So we continue the argument until Wagtail agrees to differ, as I am happy to do at any time she stops effectively accusing me of either abusing the horses I train  or being a useless rider 

Besides, it's been a foul day and I have nothing better to do 

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Haha fair enough. I use them too in training


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## annaellie (24 September 2012)

I have am not a major fan but used them in my complete t@t of a horse on advice on my instructor for a few weeks. He trained with mark and sandy Phillips and knew his stuff so I used them.
I also used them for my straight off the track ex racer on advice from another instructor who was an international event rider.
They have there places but it's the same as any equipment it's the hands there in.


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## Wagtail (24 September 2012)

cptrayes said:



			And the Princess kissed the frog who turned into a handsome Prince, they got married and lived happily ever after 

I get the problem with this argument now. You live on a different planet from me   

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No, but you are anthropomorphising rather a lot. 




			So do I, except for a fair proportion of feisty fives and silly sixes who evade from sheer high spirits a fair bit more often than that. But even if it was only 1% I still fail to see why I shouldn't take a helpful hand when it's available with the 1%
		
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I don't think they are helpful if you could do it without. Unless you cannot?




			Exactly. And I dispute that all those OTT TB's that do throw their heads up in a canter transition during correct retraining lack the physical ability to do it properly. Because when I put draw reins on the ones that I think ARE capable, but which are choosing not to out of lack of understanding that they can, or out of wilfulness, then lo and behold - they CAN do it.  And it is with great ease that one can persuade them permanently of their ability to do it and stop using the draw reins.
		
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And what you are missing is the fact that they have no other choice and therefore using draw reins on those horses that aren't physically able will cause muscle damage as they come against the rein.




			So are reins, in bad hands or on a wilful horse. I don't see you saying that no-one should use reins?
		
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So you admit that using draw reins is equivalent to a person with bad hands?




			And not only that, but  you are happy to put yours into a contraption that encloses their whole body, whilst having no feel as a rider (because you are not on it) for what the horse is doing, and only able to see one side of it.  Your dual standards are beginning to baffle me, they really are.
		
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The way I use the pessoa does not force a horse to remain in a higher outline or overbend like in draw reins. You yourself admit to using them to put a horse in hyperflexion. On the contrary, they are stretched over their backs with the lines loose and their noses vertical to the ground. When working through in this way they do not throw their heads up. However, the pessoa is not good for all horses. If they dislike it, then I don't use it. I prefer to longrein most horses in any case, but the pessoa is invaluable for developing top line. It is what most specialist vets prescribe for horses with kissing spines. I have yet to hear a vet prescribe draw reins


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## PapaFrita (24 September 2012)

No offence, but I can't think of a single good reason why anyone would attempt to justify the use of draw-reins to someone who, by their own admission, hates them. That goes for any piece of tack.


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## Wagtail (24 September 2012)

cptrayes said:



			Yes but Badgermyers so far those of us who believe that they can be a useful tool have been told that we only need them because we are all overhorsed and because we don't know how to train a horse properly.

So we continue the argument until Wagtail agrees to differ, as I am happy to do at any time she stops effectively accusing me of either abusing the horses I train  or being a useless rider 

Besides, it's been a foul day and I have nothing better to do 

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Firstly, I am simply arguing the points as you raise them. Secondly, I have never ever thought of you as a bad rider. How many times have I told you that you don't need them? I also do not think you are abusive, but that does not mean I think that draw reins are good for your horses. And thirdly, why can you not admit that you could ever be over horsed? I know I can be.


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## cptrayes (24 September 2012)

Wagtail said:



			And what you are missing is the fact that they have no other choice and therefore using draw reins on those horses that aren't physically able will cause muscle damage as they come against the rein.
		
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And you are missing the fact that I know the difference between a horse who can't and a horse who won't.

But of course in your fairytale land there are only horses who can't and none who won't.




			So you admit that using draw reins is equivalent to a person with bad hands?
		
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Please don't get stupid Wagtail . I am saying that just because people with bad hands misuse reins, you don't say that we should do without reins. And before you  say that's not possible I know two people who have hunted without them. 

Yet you want draw reins never to be used just because some people misuse them. But then you do not accept that they can ever properly be used, so that's a lost cause too. 




			The way I use the pessoa does not force a horse to remain in a higher outline or overbend like in draw reins.
		
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The way I use draw reins does not, (with the exception of one minute a week ago when my horse threw a complete teenage boy paddy), do that either. You seem completely incapable of imagining anyone using draw reins without hauling the horse into an outline. 




			You yourself admit to using them to put a horse in hyperflexion.
		
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Correct. Once, to ensure that I could stay stable and continue to give the horse instructions where to go and at what speed, for a minute or two. At that point in time it was very handy too 




			the pessoa is invaluable for developing top line.
		
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Use what you like Wagtail, I wouldn't dream of telling you that you are wrong to use something which works for you and does not hurt the horse. I wish you would accord me the same respect.

You may find it "invaluable" but a pessoa is no more "essential" to create a top line than a pair of scissors. I've never used one and I've always been able to create correct top line.


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## cptrayes (24 September 2012)

Wagtail said:



			Firstly, I am simply arguing the points as you raise them. Secondly, I have never ever thought of you as a bad rider. How many times have I told you that you don't need them? I also do not think you are abusive, but that does not mean I think that draw reins are good for your horses. And thirdly, why can you not admit that you could ever be over horsed? I know I can be. 

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Oh come on Wagtail, this is getting stupid 

One, please don't tell me what I do and don't need. You don't know me and you've never seen me ride.

Two, you have written and repeated that EVERY person who ever uses draw reins uses them because they are overhorsed.

That's a damned long way away from me not being able to admit that I have  occasionally been overhorsed myself.

What you have written has been insulting and patronising, to me and others.

Can we just leave it that you are completely unable to see a good use for draw reins and other people are not, without you banging on and on and on with these arguments telling us where we are all going wrong?


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## Goldenstar (24 September 2012)

I just still can't my mind around saying draw riens are unnecessary while lunging the horse in a Pessoa!!!!


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## cptrayes (24 September 2012)

PapaFrita said:



			No offence, but I can't think of a single good reason why anyone would attempt to justify the use of draw-reins to someone who, by their own admission, hates them. That goes for any piece of tack.
		
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Other people read these threads too 

It's giving some people enjoyment and it's letting some others know that, in the opinion of many people, there is a time and a place for draw reins.

I am happy at any time to accept that Wagtail does not believe that, but she keeps on and on and on coming up with arguments (always the same ones ) why I am wrong.


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## cptrayes (24 September 2012)

Goldenstar said:



			I just still can't my mind around saying draw riens are unnecessary while lunging the horse in a Pessoa!!!!
		
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Me neither!


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## Hollywood (24 September 2012)

I agree that the pessoa is a useful training aid - it was recommended by one of the top equine back vets for a friends warm blood that was recovering from back injury. It has proved extremely useful and helped very much in its rehabilitation. However, like any gadget, it was used in the proper way by a professional person. 

Having had some experience with racehorses - they are taught to race in a flat outline with their heads stuck out, so most have physically developed to that way of going. To put draw reins on an exracehorse that throws its head around during transitions would be counter productive in the long run and I would say it is probably finding the transitions too difficult because it is not physically capable, IMO. I would think that more time would be needed to encourage it to work long and low (with a pessoa) to develop topline so there would be no use for draw reins.


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## Wagtail (24 September 2012)

Hollywood said:



			I agree that the pessoa is a useful training aid - it was recommended by one of the top equine back vets for a friends warm blood that was recovering from back injury. It has proved extremely useful and helped very much in its rehabilitation. However, like any gadget, it was used in the proper way by a professional person. 

Having had some experience with racehorses - they are taught to race in a flat outline with their heads stuck out, so most have physically developed to that way of going. To put draw reins on an exracehorse that throws its head around during transitions would be counter productive in the long run and I would say it is probably finding the transitions too difficult because it is not physically capable, IMO. I would think that more time would be needed to encourage it to work long and low (with a pessoa) to develop topline so there would be no use for draw reins.
		
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Thank you, Hollywood. That is what I was trying to explain to Cptrayes about why using draw reins on such horses is counter productive. But I have obviously not explained it very well.


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## Wagtail (24 September 2012)

Goldenstar said:



			I just still can't my mind around saying draw riens are unnecessary while lunging the horse in a Pessoa!!!!
		
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Go and ask some vets as I am obviously banging my head against a brick wall here.


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## Hollywood (24 September 2012)

Wagtail, I think you've done a brilliant job with your explanations and totally agree with your sentiments - well done for hanging on in there.


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## Wagtail (24 September 2012)

Hollywood said:



			Wagtail, I think you've done a brilliant job with your explanations and totally agree with your sentiments - well done for hanging on in there.
		
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Perhaps if what I am trying to say falls on deaf ears they should read Tug of War by Dr Gerd Heuschmann.


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## Goldenstar (24 September 2012)

Wagtail said:



			Go and ask some vets as I am obviously banging my head against a brick wall here.
		
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Vets are NOT trained how to train horses unless they have a personal interest in it, they are also not physios some physios are now  questioning the sense of using the pessoa on weak and rehabbing horses.
I cringe when people put Pessoa's on weak horses a lunging rope is far kinder as is an equi ami which has thebensfits of a Pessoa while radically reducing its down sides.


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## Hollywood (24 September 2012)

The pessoa is an abvanced training aid, so should be implemented accordingly. With any new training it should be introduced gradually and for short periods of time in walk and then progressed according to the horses progress. As with any training, knowledge and common sense should prevail.


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## cptrayes (24 September 2012)

Wagtail said:



			Thank you, Hollywood. That is what I was trying to explain to Cptrayes about why using draw reins on such horses is counter productive. But I have obviously not explained it very well.
		
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You have explained it fine. You just do  not accept that I DO NOT AGREE WITH YOU  that there are NO horses which are chucking their heads about because they do not want to do what they are being asked to do, but are perfectly capable physically of doing it.

Wagtail I DON'T AGREE WITH YOU  It has NOT been counter productive on any horse I have used draw reins on. There has NOT been any damage. The horses HAVE retained their training and developed proper top line. There IS more than one way to skin a cat.

Will you PLEASE stop trying to convince me?


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## cptrayes (24 September 2012)

Wagtail said:



			Go and ask some vets as I am obviously banging my head against a brick wall here.
		
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I can completely understand why a vet supervising a horse recovering from kissing spine surgery would want the horse worked to keep the surgery sites as far open as possible while they heal in with scar tissue.  It would prevent adhesions forming which will limit future flexibility in the back. 

As far as I am concerned that bears no relationship whatsoever to how I want my horses to go under saddle.


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## cptrayes (24 September 2012)

Wagtail said:



			Perhaps if what I am trying to say falls on deaf ears they should read Tug of War by Dr Gerd Heuschmann. 

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Yaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaawn.

Here we go again. You think you can only use draw reins if you are in a tug of war with your horse.


Yes, we know your point of view now Wagtail you have repeated it until I actually found New Tricks a lot more fun to go and watch than this discusson.

Can you finally, now, please just accept that a number of us simply do not agree with you?


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## madeleine1 (24 September 2012)

i dont like them being used without the rains, but my mare just likes to stick her head up, she can work perfectly forward and through the back and still hold her head up, so i use the draw reins to just remind her to lower her head a little but still have my normal reins to hold her.


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## cptrayes (24 September 2012)

Hollywood said:



			To put draw reins on an exracehorse that throws its head around during transitions would be counter productive in the long run and I would say it is probably finding the transitions too difficult because it is not physically capable, IMO. I would think that more time would be needed to encourage it to work long and low (with a pessoa) to develop topline so there would be no use for draw reins.
		
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If that is so, can you explain to me why the horses I have used it on for head-chucking in a transition (where I was sure it was evasion and not physical incapacity) suddenly became totally capable of a quiet step-through transition,  and why once the draw reins were put aside they retained that improved transition and continued in their training with no ill effects whatsoever, several of them going on to compete at quite high levels?


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## Goldenstar (24 September 2012)

madeleine1 said:



			i dont like them being used without the rains, but my mare just likes to stick her head up, she can work perfectly forward and through the back and still hold her head up, so i use the draw reins to just remind her to lower her head a little but still have my normal reins to hold her.
		
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The use of draw riens without riens is incorrect in all circunmtances ..


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## Wagtail (24 September 2012)

madeleine1 said:



			i dont like them being used without the rains, but my mare just likes to stick her head up, she can work perfectly forward and through the back and still hold her head up, so i use the draw reins to just remind her to lower her head a little but still have my normal reins to hold her.
		
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Sorry, but it is impossible for a horse to be working through her back with her head in the air. If your sig is typical of how she goes then she looks very hollow in her back and tense in the base of her neck. Draw reins will not address this.


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## Mearas (24 September 2012)

Sorry Goldenstar but have to agree with Wagtail. 

As posted previously in this thread.

Why bother with any of it? 

If you are a novice rider you should not use any gadgets, as an experienced rider you have the seat, aids and knowledge not to need or to bother with them. Maybe there's an argument for using them to keep you safe but then why put yourself in an unsafe situation? 

All gadgets are is a short cut to training, so assess the problem, and then spend the time working it through. If you cannot work the problem through find a trainer who can help you.


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## Goldenstar (24 September 2012)

Mearas said:



			Sorry Goldenstar but have to agree with Wagtail. 

As posted previously in this thread.

Why bother with any of it? 

If you are a novice rider you should not use any gadgets, as an experienced rider you have the seat, aids and knowledge not to need or to bother with them. Maybe there's an argument for using them to keep you safe but then why put yourself in an unsafe situation? 

All gadgets are is a short cut to training, so assess the problem, and then spend the time working it through. If you cannot work the problem through find a trainer who can help you.[/QUOTE

Why are you saying sorry to me my confusion on this thread is why a Pessoa which pullyies a horses head from left to right to different to draw reins that I should I chose to use them I have complete control to let loose .
I can't remember the last time I used a draw rein but certainly would if I felt it would help the last time I used them was on a very damaged driving horse who I broke at ten .
I stand by my comment that I am trained to train horses vets are not so I don't set any store at all to the fact some vets may recommend a Pessoa .
		
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## madeleine1 (25 September 2012)

Wagtail said:



			Sorry, but it is impossible for a horse to be working through her back with her head in the air. If your sig is typical of how she goes then she looks very hollow in her back and tense in the base of her neck. Draw reins will not address this.
		
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its not impossible, if u havnt ridden her u wouldnt no and those picks are when she came out of the riding school lessons befor i got her stepping under herself and using her body. i probably am expressing myself badly but what i mean is that i do u use the draw reins as a quick help so that she knows what i want as she stresses. also i didnt mean for the drew reins to be used without the reins just that some people likes its been explained in here shorten their reins to meet the shortened draw reins but i dont, on the rare occasion i use draw reins to boost her training and along side long term proper traing i only give a feel down the draw reins but have the contact with the normal reins and do not shorten it.


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## millitiger (25 September 2012)

Wagtail said:



			Sorry, but it is impossible for a horse to be working through her back with her head in the air. If your sig is typical of how she goes then she looks very hollow in her back and tense in the base of her neck. Draw reins will not address this.
		
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Of course a horse can work through it's back with it's head up- or do horses show jumping and going cross country not use their back muscles?
Not all horses maintain a round outline in between fences when jumping but they are still working over their backs.

I have been thinking about this as I am one of the people who said have used draw reins on 2 x horses to improve the canter transition.

The first horse was scoring 70-75% under listed judges, all of his work was correct APART from the canter transition.

I don't believe he was being wilfully naughty and purposely throwing his head up; imo horses don't have the capacity to think like that if it is very specifically during one movement.
I don't believe he couldn't do it properly either as he was sufficiently muscled and his canterwork was his highlight- regularly getting 8's and 9's.

I do think that it can be a habit though- to pop off the aids, drop onto the shoulder and pull themselves into canter. All of that can happen in one stride!
He was 11 when I bought him so it was a long ingrained habit.

So I put draw reins on to show him he could stay round and correct through the transition (still with nose in front of vertical and poll the highest point).
Used for one session (for only these transitions) and the canter transitions were 100% better from that day on- I owned him for another 5 years and the improvement was maintained.

Perhaps if I was a better rider I could have done it without the rein- but as long as the horse is not forced or damaged what harm have I done?

And if we get onto the 'if I was a better rider' perhaps everyone who rides in a flash or a drop or with a full cheeked snaffle, or a martingale, or a pelham or anything but a rope halter and a saddle pad, should blame themselves and not the horse and not get back on any horse until you can control it with your seat alone and no reins and no saddle.

I doubt many people on this entire board would be able to ride this afternoon if we applied that idea!


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## Wagtail (25 September 2012)

I understand WHY people are using them, but it still puzzles me because all of the things talked about that people have used them for, I have honestly cured quickly and easily without them. I also get that people arguing in favour of them say they have them loose etc, but sadly I have never seen them used that way. Too many people are using them incorrectly. I have only personally seen bad effects from their use and so my opinion is completely unchanged. I still think they are a quick fix, that if over used can cause actual damage to the horse's necks and IME they make horses more gobby.


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## millitiger (25 September 2012)

Wagtail said:



			I understand WHY people are using them, but it still puzzles me because all of the things talked about that people have used them for, I have honestly cured quickly and easily without them.
		
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I have cured the issues I talk about on lots of other horses without draw reins.
If you can cure any horse of any issue in only one session with only a simple snaffle, no noseband or any sort of artificial aid at all (apart from your beloved pessoa ) then you are a better rider than me and a better rider than every professional I have worked for- hats off to you 



Wagtail said:



			I still think they are a quick fix, that if over used can cause actual damage to the horse's necks and IME they make horses more gobby.
		
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I absolutely agree with this sentence and I am sure everyone else on this thread would too.
Of course they are a quick fix- who in their right mind wants to be using draw reins for weeks on end with little sign of improvement?
I don't agree that a quick fix is a bad thing though, as long as the horse is not harmed. The quicker the horse works correctly, the quicker he will build muscle and the quicker he will find his work easy.

Of course if they are overused (by which I presume you mean amount of pressure and leverage as well as timeframe?) they can cause damage and ruin the contact, again I don't think anyone would dispute that.

So it boils down really to you thinking that everyone who uses draw reins uses them to wrench the horse in because that is all you have personally seen so it doesn't really matter what anyone says on this thread because unless you see it with your own eyes, you won't believe them when they say they are loose or the horse is working correctly over it's back?


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## Equilibrium Ireland (25 September 2012)

Haven't read all the replies but the biggest users of draw reins I have seen are from professionals. Not for or against really. I actually used draw reins more at the track than I have on my own horses. Right or wrong. One particular mare I put them on myself did nothing but trot in them. She had no ability to trot when I started getting on her. She had a spotty race record and was very well bred. The only time she was without them was when we turned around to breeze. This very well bred mare went on to win 2 and place in a couple before being retired. When we trotted 3 miles daily I mean full extended working trot to build her very weak frame. I'm quite sure her owners were happy with her improvement and she became a big strong mare. Actually I'm sure the owners were delighted she won a couple finally. And she's also the dam of the most expensive horse ever bought at auction. 

When I look at tools in my toolbox I have to remember they come from getting on thousands of horses. Not 10, not 50. I don't use draw reins at the moment. Don't need to, but I may again. 

And also there is a big difference in schooling your own horses for years on end and the business end of horses. You can hate the business end all you like but it pays wages and keeps the horse world going. It may not be our way of wanting to do things but owners want returns. If pro's use draw reins to keep horses working the way they need to then so be it. And this is coming from an owner who snatched her mare away from a trainer for over using draw reins and making my mare nuts. I have the time. I bred this mare and she is my future foundation broodmare once she's doing her 1.30's. I want it done correctly. I want my mare happy and I have the time. Hence forth why as a 6 YO we have just been reschooling without draw reins. It's been a long road but finally light at the end of the tunnel. 

Ok, off my soapbox now. 

Terri


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## cptrayes (25 September 2012)

Wagtail said:



			all of the things talked about that people have used them for, I have honestly cured quickly and easily without them.
		
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No, you haven't.

You have never, by what you have written, ridden a horse that throws its head into the air on a transition even though it has all the physical capability to do the transition correctly.

You have never ridden "feisty five" or "silly six" horses who are just going to throw a tantrum because of their age, or you would recognise that some horses present training difficulties that are nothing to do with their physical ability to do what is asked of them.

You've never even seen draw reins used properly and didn't know that they do not sit at an angle of 90 degrees to the correct rein position, or even anywhere near it. 

And yet you condemn them and tell all of us who find them a useful tool in the box for some horses that we don't know what we are doing and that we are all overhorsed.

Can you not acknowledge the slightest possibility, Wagtail, that some of us have a different way to skin the cat than you?


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## Equilibrium Ireland (25 September 2012)

CPTrayes,

Well said!

Terri


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## Wagtail (25 September 2012)

millitiger said:



			I have cured the issues I talk about on lots of other horses without draw reins.
If you can cure any horse of any issue in only one session with only a simple snaffle, no noseband or any sort of artificial aid at all (apart from your beloved pessoa ) then you are a better rider than me and a better rider than every professional I have worked for- hats off to you 

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This thread is about draw reins. Why draw reins? Because they are a contentious issue. More so than other gadgets. Disliking draw reins does not mean that you have to dislike all other gadgets used on a horse. That is just silly.

Regarding curing all issues with all horses without any gadgets other than a pessoa, then of course I can't. 

However, I can cure the type of issue mentioned in this thread such as a horse throwing its head up during a canter transition without resorting to draw reins. So long as the horse is at the appropriate level of training and is physically prepared and able. Only two days ago I had to tackle this exact problem. A twelve year old warmblood who had been competing at novice level and so should be more than capable of making a good canter transition. But Owner was getting a persistant throwing up of his head every time that she asked and it had become a habit. In fact, the first transition with me, he did it too. It was MY error. All the following transitions were far better and by the end of only ten minutes of canter work his trot to canter and walk to canter were spot on. But owner gets back on and the problem immediately returned. So it was all down to rider error. She informed me that she used draw reins at her last yard to get him out of the habit, but having seen that he did not do it with me, she realised the problem lay with her and we will be working on it in the next couple of weeks.




			I absolutely agree with this sentence and I am sure everyone else on this thread would too.
Of course they are a quick fix- who in their right mind wants to be using draw reins for weeks on end with little sign of improvement?
I don't agree that a quick fix is a bad thing though, as long as the horse is not harmed. The quicker the horse works correctly, the quicker he will build muscle and the quicker he will find his work easy.

Of course if they are overused (by which I presume you mean amount of pressure and leverage as well as timeframe?) they can cause damage and ruin the contact, again I don't think anyone would dispute that.

So it boils down really to you thinking that everyone who uses draw reins uses them to wrench the horse in because that is all you have personally seen so it doesn't really matter what anyone says on this thread because unless you see it with your own eyes, you won't believe them when they say they are loose or the horse is working correctly over it's back?
		
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No, I completely and utterly believe that you and Cptrayes use draw reins correctly, though when CPtrays said she used them to put a horse in hyperflexion, I hardly think they were hanging loose!
But I do think that they are broadly used incorrectly by less knowledgable people.



cptrayes said:



			No, you haven't.

You have never, by what you have written, ridden a horse that throws its head into the air on a transition even though it has all the physical capability to do the transition correctly.
		
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Please see the recent exampe I have given above.




			You have never ridden "feisty five" or "silly six" horses who are just going to throw a tantrum because of their age, or you would recognise that some horses present training difficulties that are nothing to do with their physical ability to do what is asked of them.
		
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We interpret their behaviour in different ways, that's all. You give them human characteristics and intentions. I do not.




			You've never even seen draw reins used properly and didn't know that they do not sit at an angle of 90 degrees to the correct rein position, or even anywhere near it.
		
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I posted a link to another thread earlier with a picture showing the angle was almost 90 degrees. Obviously it is not if you clip the reins at the sides, but more commonly they are clipped between the horses's front legs.




			And yet you condemn them and tell all of us who find them a useful tool in the box for some horses that we don't know what we are doing and that we are all overhorsed.

Can you not acknowledge the slightest possibility, Wagtail, that some of us have a different way to skin the cat than you?
		
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Yes I completely agree that you do have a different way. Why can't you accept that the behavious such as transition problems can be cured without them?


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## Wagtail (25 September 2012)

The angle is almost 90 degrees.

http://www.millbryhill.co.uk/view_image.html?image_id=10161&product_id=43751


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## millitiger (25 September 2012)

Wagtail said:



			This thread is about draw reins. Why draw reins? Because they are a contentious issue. More so than other gadgets. Disliking draw reins does not mean that you have to dislike all other gadgets used on a horse. That is just silly.
Regarding curing all issues with all horses without any gadgets other than a pessoa, then of course I can't. 

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Wagtail said:



			We are talking about different things entirely as one is designed for ridden work, and the other for lunging. I do not believe there is any need for gadgets when ridden, except, as I have said before, you are over horsed and it is for safety.
		
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Apologies then but previously in this post you have said there is no place for gadgets unless for safety (quote above) so I presumed you never use any gadget for any schooling issue?



Wagtail said:



			A twelve year old warmblood who had been competing at novice level and so should be more than capable of making a good canter transition. But Owner was getting a persistant throwing up of his head every time that she asked and it had become a habit. In fact, the first transition with me, he did it too. It was MY error. All the following transitions were far better and by the end of only ten minutes of canter work his trot to canter and walk to canter were spot on. But owner gets back on and the problem immediately returned. So it was all down to rider error. She informed me that she used draw reins at her last yard to get him out of the habit, but having seen that he did not do it with me, she realised the problem lay with her and we will be working on it in the next couple of weeks.
		
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So what about the horse I have used as an example?

The rider (me) was the same before and after the session with the draw reins and as he improved so much after using the draw reins for 10 minutes and, very importantly, KEPT the improvement, is it still rider error?
Was I asking incorrectly before and suddenly started to ask correctly coincidently with using the draw reins? Probably not


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## Wagtail (25 September 2012)

millitiger said:



			Apologies then but previously in this post you have said there is no place for gadgets unless for safety (quote above) so I presumed you never use any gadget for any schooling issue?
		
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It depends on your definition of gadgets. I don't class bits that are dressage legal as gadgets. Though I suppose you could say that curb bits are gadgets. I don't tend to use them at all on my own horses, but if a client wants to put one on their horse, then that is fine by me, and I accept that some horses actually work better and are calmer in a pelham than a snaffle. It all depends what suits the horse. By gadgets I mean things used as schooling aids such as bungees, side reins, draw reins etc. I also dislike flash nosebands as I think if a horse is happy with its bit then it does not need one. I CAN see a place for draw reins, standing martingales etc as safety precautions, but not as schooling aids.




			So what about the horse I have used as an example?

The rider (me) was the same before and after the session with the draw reins and as he improved so much after using the draw reins for 10 minutes and, very importantly, KEPT the improvement, is it still rider error?
Was I asking incorrectly before and suddenly started to ask correctly coincidently with using the draw reins? Probably not 

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The horse was throwing its head up due to habit and the draw reins broke that habit. I don't dispute that draw reins can be used in this way. However, I prefer not to resort to them. Believe me, it has been tempting sometimes even for me to slap on some draw reins when having to school the 17 hh hyper spooky warmblood on my yard. I would feel far safer and it would be easy peasy for me. But I would feel I was cheating my client as I would just be doing something that she could do herself! Why pay me to ride her horse around in draw reins? FWIW, I do have a pair and the last time they were used was seven years ago on an ex racer (my own) who would bolt in the school. I used them once, and yes, he was easier, but in this instance the problem was still there when I removed them. So I never put them on him again. He was the most difficult one I have ever had to retrain. And yes, it took time, but in the end he made a cracking little dressage horse.


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## millitiger (25 September 2012)

Wagtail said:



			It depends on your definition of gadgets. I don't class bits that are dressage legal as gadgets. Though I suppose you could say that curb bits are gadgets. I don't tend to use them at all on my own horses, but if a client wants to put one on their horse, then that is fine by me, and I accept that some horses actually work better and are calmer in a pelham than a snaffle. It all depends what suits the horse. By gadgets I mean things used as schooling aids such as bungees, side reins, draw reins etc. I also dislike flash nosebands as I think if a horse is happy with its bit then it does not need one. I CAN see a place for draw reins, standing martingales etc as safety precautions, but not as schooling aids.
		
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I think there is a very fine line between gadget and artificial aid- I was being purposely provocative with my list of tack, just to try and make my point that the line is very blurred, assuming the aid/gadget is being used with tact and feel.

What is the definition of gadget and why, in your mind, do BD legal bits not come under gadgets but BD legal tack does?

I rode my little mare in a hanging cheek french link and the amount of people who thought that was 'cheating' was unbelievable- even listed BD judges, sadly showing they don't truly understand leverage and simple physics.





Wagtail said:



			The horse was throwing its head up due to habit and the draw reins broke that habit. I don't dispute that draw reins can be used in this way. However, I prefer not to resort to them. Believe me, it has been tempting sometimes even for me to slap on some draw reins when having to school the 17 hh hyper spooky warmblood on my yard. I would feel far safer and it would be easy peasy for me. But I would feel I was cheating my client as I would just be doing something that she could do herself!
		
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Funnily enough both horses I used my draw reins on were under 16hh, so go figure 
My current horse is 18hh, very powerful, big moving and he can test his boundaries- it would never cross my mind to use draw reins on him as he would not benefit from them and they would create a heap more issues than they would solve with him.

Draw reins aren't about strength at all for me and I don't try and use them to overpower the horse- it is nothing to do with the size of the horse for me.

And if you were to use draw reins with your 17hh warmblood in for schooling; I don't think you would be cheating as you would be using the reins in conjunction with your superior riding skills so she wouldn't be able to do it herself.

(btw, how nice to have a debate without people getting bitchy or over-zealous )


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## Wagtail (25 September 2012)

Got to go out and do a lesson now. But totally agree, I love a good debate and am always interested to hear others' views on things. I have even changed my thinking due so some discussions one here. There is never a need to get bitchy.


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## Mearas (26 September 2012)

My last post page 19, should have read sorry Madelaine 1 not Goldenstar. Trouble with posting in a rush. Apologies everyone especially Goldenstar.

Most horses will through their heads in the air because they are unbalanced. They can be unbalanced because they are not supple or not in the correct rhythm, address these issues and they will not through their heads in the air. Putting draw reins on soes not address either of these isssues.


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## Goldenstar (26 September 2012)

Mearas said:



			My last post page 19, should have read sorry Madelaine 1 not Goldenstar. Trouble with posting in a rush. Apologies everyone especially Goldenstar.

Most horses will through their heads in the air because they are unbalanced. They can be unbalanced because they are not supple or not in the correct rhythm, address these issues and they will not through their heads in the air. Putting draw reins on soes not address either of these isssues.
		
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Ah now I understand I was confused.


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## millitiger (26 September 2012)

Mearas said:



			Most horses will through their heads in the air because they are unbalanced. They can be unbalanced because they are not supple or not in the correct rhythm, address these issues and they will not through their heads in the air. Putting draw reins on soes not address either of these isssues.
		
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Yes 'most' horses, not all


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## Rouletterose (26 September 2012)

very interesting thread, having read most of the posts I now feel suitably dizzy!

For my two penneth I never use fixed side reins when lunging, all my horses lunge over their backs and reach for the contact, without side reins or anything else.

In ridden work my horses all are taught to reach for the contact, stretch their necks and come into a frame from the back end. I still cannot fathom how using draw reins can achieve this.

If the very experienced riders on here say they need them occasionally for very naughty strong horses to keep their heads/necks in what is deemed to be the correct place in their opinion, to stop getting thrown into orbit, then so be it. i dont ride very strong naughty horses anymore so cannot really comment too much on that.

I am strongly against the use of draw reins and fixed side reins of any sort, I have reschooled a few ex racehorses with no problems and no gadgets. But I do a lot of hacking and groundwork/lunging etc as well, as these horses have never been for sale, time has never been an issue.

I know quite a few good riders that use these items, usually bcause the horse will be for sale and they are against the clock to get their money back and a profit. This is the way of the world now sadly.


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## cptrayes (26 September 2012)

Wagtail said:



			However, I can cure the type of issue mentioned in this thread such as a horse throwing its head up during a canter transition without resorting to draw reins. So long as the horse is at the appropriate level of training and is physically prepared and able.
		
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And you refuse to accept that there is any other reason for a horse throwing its head around than lack of physical capability and rider error.




			No, I completely and utterly believe that you and Cptrayes use draw reins correctly, though when CPtrays said she used them to put a horse in hyperflexion, I hardly think they were hanging loose!
		
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Would I have bothered telling people what I had done if it had been my normal way of using them? I mentioned it precisely to illustrate the difference. And I never have them "hanging loose" either, (unless they are clipped to the saddle and out of my hands altogether.) They are set so that the horse brings them into use if he puts his head up or out too far. So yet again you are illustrating that you do not understand how those who use them properly are doing so. 





			We interpret their behaviour in different ways, that's all. You give them human characteristics and intentions. I do not.
		
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You absolutely refuse to accept that training difficulties can be temperamental in origin. That is not me anthropomorphising Wagtail, that is you showing an incredible lack of experience of horses.  





			I posted a link to another thread earlier with a picture showing the angle was almost 90 degrees. Obviously it is not if you clip the reins at the sides, but more commonly they are clipped between the horses's front legs.
		
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I nearly always clip between the legs. I can assure you that with my hands at a normal height and the horse of the size and length of neck I ride carrying himself rounded and forward, the angle does not even approach 90 degrees. Don't forget your maths Wagtail, the longer the horse's neck is, the more acute the angle will be. 




			Yes I completely agree that you do have a different way. Why can't you accept that the behavious such as transition problems can be cured without them?
		
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Because you will not accept that there are any horses that headchuck for reasons of temperament. And in failing to accept that, you cannot see that for those horses, the use of draw reins is often much quicker, and kinder, than using the hands on  fixed reins alone. 

I do not accept that ALL headchucking problems can  be most easily cured by other methods.  They may be able to be cured, but I fail to see what is so admirable about taking more effort than needed to do it. 

And it does not matter how many times you repeat exactly the same argument over and over and over again, I will not agree with you.

Do you get it yet? I don't agree with you. PLEASE do not try and convince me any more, because I am not going to change my mind because of the sheer number of times you tell me what is your version of the truth, which is that no horse misbehaves in training for any reason other than a physical one.


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## cptrayes (26 September 2012)

Wagtail said:



			The angle is almost 90 degrees.

http://www.millbryhill.co.uk/view_image.html?image_id=10161&product_id=43751

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You have pointed to a second picture of a horse not working properly in them Wagtail. Can you not see that the horse is overbent and not reaching his neck forwards into the contact? If he was moving he  might look better, and if so the angle of the draw rein would markedly narrow. 

As it is, I have measured it with a protrator and the angle between the draw reins is * 65*, nowhere near 90.

None of us disagree that they are often used wrongly and so far you have pointed to two pictures of horses at halt showing that perfectly. 

I can only repeat. On a horse working properly with a neck the length of the size of horse I ride, the angle is around 45 degrees and nowhere near 90


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## Wagtail (26 September 2012)

Before I start, I am not actually trying to change your mind, Cptrayes. I am simply answering your points as you raise them. You have made it perfectly clear that your mind is closed to all other training methods to cure a horse that tosses its head, because you have found an easy peasy way of doing it. Thing is, it is a way that anyone could do it. I am trying to point out that there are other ways. By all means, you carry on, you are obviously happy using this method and it must work well for you. I will however answer your points because there are other people reading who may be interested in the arguments, and enjoy a discussion regarding the training of horses. I don't give two hoots that I will not persuade you so feel free to ignore me. 



cptrayes said:



			And you refuse to accept that there is any other reason for a horse throwing its head around than lack of physical capability and rider error.
		
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You misread what I am saying. I am saying that horses are not 'naughty' like children are naughty. There is always a reason behind their behaviour, other than just trying to piss us off.




			Would I have bothered telling people what I had done if it had been my normal way of using them? I mentioned it precisely to illustrate the difference. And I never have them "hanging loose" either, (unless they are clipped to the saddle and out of my hands altogether.) They are set so that the horse brings them into use if he puts his head up or out too far. So yet again you are illustrating that you do not understand how those who use them properly are doing so.
		
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By hanging loose, I mean not actually forming a contact with the mouth.





			You absolutely refuse to accept that training difficulties can be temperamental in origin. That is not me anthropomorphising Wagtail, that is you showing an incredible lack of experience of horses.
		
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 Now you say 'temperamental' before you were insinuating that they were just plain naughty. Temperament is something different entirely. And of course I have no experience what so ever with horses. You are absolutely right Cptrayes. Well done. You got me. You've won the argument.  




			I nearly always clip between the legs. I can assure you that with my hands at a normal height and the horse of the size and length of neck I ride carrying himself rounded and forward, the angle does not even approach 90 degrees. Don't forget your maths Wagtail, the longer the horse's neck is, the more acute the angle will be.
		
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I think we have done this to death, don't you?




			Because you will not accept that there are any horses that headchuck for reasons of temperament. And in failing to accept that, you cannot see that for those horses, the use of draw reins is often much quicker, and kinder, than using the hands on  fixed reins alone.
		
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Quicker for you, maybe. Not for me. 




			I do not accept that ALL headchucking problems can  be most easily cured by other methods.  They may be able to be cured, but I fail to see what is so admirable about taking more effort than needed to do it.
		
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Because I would have no satisfaction whatsoever if I cured a horse of head chucking by slapping on a pair of draw reins. And I do not find it particularly hard to do it without them.




			And it does not matter how many times you repeat exactly the same argument over and over and over again, I will not agree with you.

Do you get it yet? I don't agree with you. PLEASE do not try and convince me any more, because I am not going to change my mind because of the sheer number of times you tell me what is your version of the truth, which is that no horse misbehaves in training for any reason other than a physical one.
		
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Yes, got it the first time. But you keep arguing the points and I will keep responding to the arguments. I enjoy a good debate. Sorry if I have annoyed you. But this thread was long dead before you resurrected it and so I presumed you enjoyed the discussion too.


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## Wagtail (26 September 2012)

cptrayes said:



			You have pointed to a second picture of a horse not working properly in them Wagtail. Can you not see that the horse is overbent and not reaching his neck forwards into the contact? If he was moving he  might look better, and if so the angle of the draw rein would markedly narrow. 

As it is, I have measured it with a protrator and the angle between the draw reins is * 65*, nowhere near 90.

None of us disagree that they are often used wrongly and so far you have pointed to two pictures of horses at halt showing that perfectly. 

I can only repeat. On a horse working properly with a neck the length of the size of horse I ride, the angle is around 45 degrees and nowhere near 90
		
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The angle will vary, yes. When your horse is chucking its head up the angle will be far greater, no? As it happens, the exact angle is irrelevant. For some reason you have homed in on the number of degrees whilst completely missing the point I was trying to make when I said it. It was in response to you saying that a woman using draw reins was the equivalent of a man doing the same thing without them. To which I replied that they were not the same at all as you were using a force from a completely different direction. Whether it is 90 degrees or thirty makes no difference to that argument.


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## cptrayes (26 September 2012)

Wagtail said:



			Before I start, I am not actually trying to change your mind, Cptrayes. I am simply answering your points as you raise them.
		
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No you are not. You are simply saying the same thing over and over and over again, as if in some vain hope that I will agree with you.





			Quicker for you, maybe. Not for me. Because I would have no satisfaction whatsoever if I cured a horse of head chucking by slapping on a pair of draw reins. And I do not find it particularly hard to do it without them.
		
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I still find it completely impossible to understand that you get total satisfaction out of putting a pessoa on a horse to prevent it moving as it wishes yet cannot see how  a rider putting draw reins on a horse for exactly the same purpose can be happy about it at all.  But please, I have heard all your arguments for this and I do not agree with them so for heavens sake don't repeat them again!





			For some reason you have homed in on the number of degrees
		
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I "homed in on it" because you originally quoted it as if it was relevant, and produced another example of what you meant when I challenged you that saying that the angle was 90 degrees showed that you had not seen them properly used. 

I agree with you, the exact angle is irrelevant and I have no idea why you brought it up in the first place and then stuck to your guns with another picture until I got a protractor out and proved that you did not know what you were talking about in respect of the angle. 

I think we are finally close to agreeing that we disagree. Thank goodness for that


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## cptrayes (26 September 2012)

Wagtail said:



			You have made it perfectly clear that your mind is closed to all other training methods to cure a horse that tosses its head, because you have found an easy peasy way of doing it.
		
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I just love it when someone who fails to win their argument has to finish on accusing the other party of being closed minded. Do you say that to everyone who simply disagrees with you Wagtail?  Because one peep in my stable would tell you that you are accusing the wrong person.


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## cptrayes (26 September 2012)

Wagtail said:



			The angle will vary, yes. When your horse is chucking its head up the angle will be far greater, no? .
		
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No, it will be less. The two lines will close as the mouth goes higher in the air. You really haven't seen them in use, it's obvious.


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## Wagtail (26 September 2012)

cptrayes said:



			I just love it when someone who fails to win their argument has to finish on accusing the other party of being closed minded. Do you say that to everyone who simply disagrees with you Wagtail?  Because one peep in my stable would tell you that you are accusing the wrong person.
		
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Yet someone who disagrees with the use of draw reins, you say obviously has no experience with horses whatsoever. 

I do think you are closed minded because you cannot accept that some people do not need them to cure something such as head tossing. I have accepted that you can do it with them, why can't you accept that I do not need them to acheive the same results?


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## cptrayes (26 September 2012)

Wagtail said:



			Yet someone who disagrees with the use of draw reins, you say obviously has no experience with horses whatsoever.
		
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For someone who prides themselves in arguing Wagtail, you don't half twist things. 

It was YOU who said you had no experience whatsoever, I think as a joke?

I said that if you had never met a horse which chucked its head around because it chose to and not because of physical difficulty doing what it was asked to do, which is what you seemed to be saying, then you did not have enough experience with horses.




			I do think you are closed minded because you cannot accept that some people do not need them to cure something such as head tossing.
		
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I bow to your superior abilities Wagtail. Clever old you.  I say again, you are accusing the wrong person of being closed minded regarding horses and their management.




			I have accepted that you can do it with them, why can't you accept that I do not need them to acheive the same results? 

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Because I don't think you'd last a minute on some of the horses I've ridden in the past    I honestly don't think you are talking about the same kind of horses as I am.  But if you are, well done, clever you.

You accepting that I can do things with draw reins is a far cry from me accepting that you can achieve the results I can, _on the horses I have done it on_, as quickly and easily* as I have.  You have to have ridden the actual horses which I have ridden before you can tell me categorically that you could have trained them just as easily with your methods, and that is not possible. 

You cannot reasonably compare your "acceptance" with my lack of it.  It's like you accepting that I can fly in an airplane and asking me to accept that you can fly without one 



* pleeeeaaase don't start the one that slower and more difficult is better in some way than quick and easy again, because that's another one I just don't buy.


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## BeesKnees (26 September 2012)

Wagtail said:



			By gadgets I mean things used as schooling aids such as bungees, side reins, draw reins
		
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....but not a Pessoa?  that seems rather disingenuous to me. By all means say you don't like draw reins, but to say you don't need to use 'gadgets' when you use a Pessoa seems really hypocritical. 

A Pessoa creates parameters for a horse to move within in order to encourage a more rounded, less hollow way of going. As do side reins, draw reins etc etc. I can't see how one is somehow superior to the others?


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## siennamum (26 September 2012)

The difference is that people who use draw reins do so because they are overhorsed and afraid of their horses. Period.


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## Goldenstar (26 September 2012)

siennamum said:



			The difference is that people who use draw reins do so because they are overhorsed and afraid of their horses. Period.
		
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I was trained to use draw riens when I was younger I can understand there use, I do not often admittedly use them now.
You have ( I think ) never met me so I can tell you with complete confidence I have never ever been afraid of a one of my horses and I am not  easily over horsed to make such statements about riders you have never seen and to condem some of the best riders ( which just to be clear i definatly dont include myself in this group !) in the world as over horsed and afraid is frankly one of the funniest things I heard in a long while .period.


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## siennamum (26 September 2012)

Goldenstar said:



			I was trained to use draw riens when I was younger I can understand there use, I do not often admittedly use them now.
You have ( I think ) never met me so I can tell you with complete confidence I have never ever been afraid of a one of my horses and I am not  easily over horsed to make such statements about riders you have never seen and to condem some of the best riders ( which just to be clear i definatly dont include myself in this group !) in the world as over horsed and afraid is frankly one of the funniest things I heard in a long while .period.
		
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Well I happen to agree with you, but I just thought I would reiterate one of Wagtails arguments from earlier in the post in case she needed some moral support.


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## Goldenstar (26 September 2012)

siennamum said:



			Well I happen to agree with you, but I just thought I would reiterate one of Wagtails arguments from earlier in the post in case she needed some moral support.
		
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Did I pick up the wrong end of the stick sorry it's been a long day.


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## siennamum (26 September 2012)

Goldenstar said:



			Did I pick up the wrong end of the stick sorry it's been a long day.
		
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haha don't worry, not sure why I am still up tbh


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## millitiger (27 September 2012)

Why does it have to get so nasty and bitchy? 
Can't this be a debate without getting personal?

Wagtail, I'd be really interested if you could answer the few points from my last post if you want to continue a discussion with someone without the barbed comments 

btw, I think there is a clear difference between using draw reins for control and using them as a schooling aid, when imo, there should be very light, fingertip control- the size and power of the horse is irrelevant so I really don't see the point in the 'my horse is much more difficult than your's' or 'you wouldn't last a minute on my horse' argument.


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## Wagtail (27 September 2012)

millitiger said:



			Why does it have to get so nasty and bitchy? 
Can't this be a debate without getting personal?

Wagtail, I'd be really interested if you could answer the few points from my last post if you want to continue a discussion with someone without the barbed comments 

btw, I think there is a clear difference between using draw reins for control and using them as a schooling aid, when imo, there should be very light, fingertip control- the size and power of the horse is irrelevant so I really don't see the point in the 'my horse is much more difficult than your's' or 'you wouldn't last a minute on my horse' argument.
		
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Sorry, I was so busy fending off the ridiculous accusations I forgot to get back to you.



millitiger said:



			Apologies then but previously in this post you have said there is no place for gadgets unless for safety (quote above) so I presumed you never use any gadget for any schooling issue?
		
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Sorry, I was referring to ridden gadgets. However, I do even then see room for some exceptions. For example, I taught my two sons to ride when they were 7 and 5 on my 15.3 hh warmblood. Being boys, they were not that interested and so I didn't want to buy them a pony and then they lose interest. So I put some loose side reins on her just so she couldn't pull them over her head! Worked a treat and both boys learned really well and even progressed to jumping a small course on her. But always with the really loose side reins.




			So what about the horse I have used as an example?

The rider (me) was the same before and after the session with the draw reins and as he improved so much after using the draw reins for 10 minutes and, very importantly, KEPT the improvement, is it still rider error?
Was I asking incorrectly before and suddenly started to ask correctly coincidently with using the draw reins? Probably not 

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No, I quite agree that draw reins CAN be used to break a habit so long as the horse is physically able to perform what is required of it. However, I think people need to be careful here. With draw reins any horse can be forced to perform clean transitions but they may not be physically ready. Horses often throw their heads up due to balance issues or because they are not strong enough  to take the weight back onto their hocks. Forcing them to do this before they are physically ready, can cause muscular strains and even ruptures and result in soreness or worse. When training them without such aids, the rider is more able to feel what is going on throughout the horse's body.


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## Wagtail (27 September 2012)

cptrayes said:



			That is not me anthropomorphising Wagtail, that is you showing an incredible lack of experience of horses.
		
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This is just one of the times you said I have a lack of experience of horses. You also stated that I have never ridden fiesty fives and silly six year olds, and that I had obviously never experienced an off the track TB. In fact, your whole defense has hinged on inferring that because I don't accept that many horses are plain naughty, then I don't have the experience.


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## Wagtail (27 September 2012)

BeesKnees said:



			....but not a Pessoa?  that seems rather disingenuous to me. By all means say you don't like draw reins, but to say you don't need to use 'gadgets' when you use a Pessoa seems really hypocritical. 

A Pessoa creates parameters for a horse to move within in order to encourage a more rounded, less hollow way of going. As do side reins, draw reins etc etc. I can't see how one is somehow superior to the others?
		
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I have said this time and time again, but appreciate that in a thread this long things can get lost and people can't be expected to trawl through the whole thread, so I will say it again. I have no problem with gadgets used for lunging to ensure that the horse is working the correct muscles. I do have a problem with gadgets used for riding because then, the rider is in a position to influence the horse far better and more safely for the horse, than through using gadgets.


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## Goldenstar (27 September 2012)

Jumping in side reins !!!! Shakes head and wonders off.


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## Wagtail (27 September 2012)

cptrayes said:



			Because I don't think you'd last a minute on some of the horses I've ridden in the past    I honestly don't think you are talking about the same kind of horses as I am.  But if you are, well done, clever you.

You accepting that I can do things with draw reins is a far cry from me accepting that you can achieve the results I can, _on the horses I have done it on_, as quickly and easily* as I have.  You have to have ridden the actual horses which I have ridden before you can tell me categorically that you could have trained them just as easily with your methods, and that is not possible. 

You cannot reasonably compare your "acceptance" with my lack of it.  It's like you accepting that I can fly in an airplane and asking me to accept that you can fly without one 

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Blimey, Cptrayes, you really do have an incredibly high opinion of your abilities, to state that _no one _could have done what you have done or ridden the same types of horses as you have without draw reins. Or even to state that I, who you have never met or seen riding cannot do it. Just because you cannot do it does not mean anyone can't do it.  

It is absolutely pointless getting into a p*ssing contest about the difficult horses we have both experienced and retrained.

But I do find it concerning that you are so ready to presume that horses are just being difficult because they are naughty. That is a very old fashioned view, and one which thankfully is dying out. There is always a reason why horses behave the way they do, and 99.9% of the time there is a reason. Find that reason and you find the solution.



[/QUOTE]


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## Wagtail (27 September 2012)

Goldenstar said:



			Jumping in side reins !!!! Shakes head and wonders off.
		
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So loose that there was no head restriction needed to jump the tiny cross poles.


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## Wagtail (27 September 2012)

siennamum said:



			The difference is that people who use draw reins do so because they are overhorsed and afraid of their horses. Period.
		
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Showing off your 'wit' I see.


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## siennamum (27 September 2012)

Wagtail said:



			Showing off your 'wit' I see. 

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No - having fun, yes, bt also reminding you why people have gotten hot under the collar in debates like this. You have quite clearly stated that people who use draw reins do so because they are afraid of their horses and/or overhorsed. It's daft, can't help pointing out how much you are backpeddling sorry.


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## Goldenstar (27 September 2012)

Wagtail said:



			So loose that there was no head restriction needed to jump the tiny cross poles.  

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So the pony spooks or is startled shots forward  meets the jump side on and can't save it's self because it can't furn it head at will very very dangerous.
At horse in a tight spot will stretch its head to the ground to twist and stay on its feet.
Riding in side reins is a big no no the risk of a leg going though the side rein  in event of a rider fall is just too great .
That's what daisy riens are for much safer for the child .


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## millitiger (27 September 2012)

millitiger said:



			What is the definition of gadget and why, in your mind, do BD legal bits not come under gadgets but BD legal tack does?
		
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Sorry wagtail, I meant my last post and the part above in particular...



millitiger said:



			Draw reins aren't about strength at all for me and I don't try and use them to overpower the horse- it is nothing to do with the size of the horse for me.
		
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And I mentioned this bit in response to you being tempted to put draw reins on a big, spooky horse you have in the yard- imo, that is missing the point of draw reins for schooling and going over into using them for safety.

For me, there is a clear difference between draw reins for safety and draw reins for schooling- the same as any other aid.

I might have to give a horse on the road a really strong pull at a junction if there are cars coming and the horse is intent on carrying on walking.
I would not use the same amount of rein pressure at all in schooling to try and teach the horse anything.
Same aid but being used totally differently, once for safety and a last measure and once for finesse and schooling.



Wagtail said:



			Sorry, I was referring to ridden gadgets. However, I do even then see room for some exceptions. For example, I taught my two sons to ride when they were 7 and 5 on my 15.3 hh warmblood. Being boys, they were not that interested and so I didn't want to buy them a pony and then they lose interest. So I put some loose side reins on her just so she couldn't pull them over her head! Worked a treat and both boys learned really well and even progressed to jumping a small course on her. But always with the really loose side reins.
		
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Is that not a gadget for safety though rather than schooling?
And you are braver than me getting people to jump in side reins, however loose they are! 

And what is the difference between side reins when ridden and draw reins when ridden apart from the side reins are static and cannot be released by the rider?
Is your issue with draw reins actually the rider themselves and you don't trust any rider not to know when to release the pressure from the rein? Otherwise I don't see the difference between side reins and draw reins in giving the horse parameters to work in.



Wagtail said:



			This thread is about draw reins. Why draw reins? Because they are a contentious issue. More so than other gadgets. Disliking draw reins does not mean that you have to dislike all other gadgets used on a horse. That is just silly.
Regarding curing all issues with all horses without any gadgets other than a pessoa, then of course I can't.
		
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I'd actually asked about your use of other gadgets in response to the above quote and would still be interested to know what other ridden gadgets you are happy to use (or happy for others to use) and what issues you use them for and how you see that as different to draw reins?




Wagtail said:



			No, I quite agree that draw reins CAN be used to break a habit so long as the horse is physically able to perform what is required of it. However, I think people need to be careful here. With draw reins any horse can be forced to perform clean transitions but they may not be physically ready. Horses often throw their heads up due to balance issues or because they are not strong enough  to take the weight back onto their hocks. Forcing them to do this before they are physically ready, can cause muscular strains and even ruptures and result in soreness or worse. When training them without such aids, the rider is more able to feel what is going on throughout the horse's body.
		
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Any horse can be forced to perform clean transitions with 'normal' reins as much as with draw reins if you apply force.

Why do you think draw reins stop the rider being able to feel what is going on throughout the horses body? 
Draw reins do not impact on your seat or legs or feel (assuming you use them correctly and I think for this debate to be relevant we should assume they are being used correctly otherwise we could argue a simple snaffle bridle can cause muscle pain and incorrect schooling if used in the wrong way).


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## Wagtail (27 September 2012)

siennamum said:



			No - having fun, yes, bt also reminding you why people have gotten hot under the collar in debates like this. You have quite clearly stated that people who use draw reins do so because they are afraid of their horses and/or overhorsed. It's daft, can't help pointing out how much you are backpeddling sorry.
		
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Can you quote where I have said people who use them are afraid of their horses? Regarding them being overhorsed, I stand by that statement. In fact I think it is one of the only valid reasons for using them. That and for safety. If I had to resort to using draw reins on any of the horses I trained then I would be over horsed. No shame in that at all. I just wish people could admit it. That is not the same thing as saying that everyone who uses them is over horsed. I have repeatedly told people they can cure problems such as head tossing without them. A horse that is tossing its head is not being over horsed.


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## Wagtail (27 September 2012)

Millitiger, regarding BD legal tack and bits:

I do have a problem with some of it such as flash nosebands, and the fact that curb bits are allowed but yet bitless is not. IME you can get a horse working every bit as correctly in a hackamore or other bitless as with a bit. In fact the conformation of some horse's mouths is such that they will never be 100% comfortabe in a bit. This is why I doslike strapping their mouths shut with flashes.

However, it is perfectly possible to be okay with the use of some gadgets but not others. You are absolutely right in that all tack and bits COULD be considered gadgets and so I should be more specific with my statements, but that would get very long and tedious!


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## millitiger (27 September 2012)

Wagtail said:



			Millitiger, regarding BD legal tack and bits:

I do have a problem with some of it such as flash nosebands, and the fact that curb bits are allowed but yet bitless is not. IME you can get a horse working every bit as correctly in a hackamore or other bitless as with a bit. In fact the conformation of some horse's mouths is such that they will never be 100% comfortabe in a bit. This is why I doslike strapping their mouths shut with flashes.

However, it is perfectly possible to be okay with the use of some gadgets but not others. You are absolutely right in that all tack and bits COULD be considered gadgets and so I should be more specific with my statements, but that would get very long and tedious!
		
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I actually disagree with the BD bitting list as it excludes some very mild bits (and also bitless) and from your other posts I was surprised you see no BD legal bit as an aid or possible gadget.

So which ridden gadgets are you ok with then? This post is already long and maybe tedious for others so why stop now?


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## Wagtail (27 September 2012)

millitiger said:



			And I mentioned this bit in response to you being tempted to put draw reins on a big, spooky horse you have in the yard- imo, that is missing the point of draw reins for schooling and going over into using them for safety.

For me, there is a clear difference between draw reins for safety and draw reins for schooling- the same as any other aid.

I might have to give a horse on the road a really strong pull at a junction if there are cars coming and the horse is intent on carrying on walking.
I would not use the same amount of rein pressure at all in schooling to try and teach the horse anything.
Same aid but being used totally differently, once for safety and a last measure and once for finesse and schooling.
		
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Completely understand what you are saying here.




			Is that not a gadget for safety though rather than schooling?
And you are braver than me getting people to jump in side reins, however loose they are! 

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I am not talking about a course of proper jumps, just small cross poles. My mare who was used to jumping Newcomers barely bothered to lift herself off the ground. 




			And what is the difference between side reins when ridden and draw reins when ridden apart from the side reins are static and cannot be released by the rider?
Is your issue with draw reins actually the rider themselves and you don't trust any rider not to know when to release the pressure from the rein? Otherwise I don't see the difference between side reins and draw reins in giving the horse parameters to work in.
		
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I have said that using draw reins for safety is not an issue for me. I would not have given my small boys a set of draw reins to use on my mare however, for obvious reasons. The side reins were there to stop her putting her head down to eat and I gave it as an example of the kind of exceptions I would make for the use of gadgets ridden. 




			I'd actually asked about your use of other gadgets in response to the above quote and would still be interested to know what other ridden gadgets you are happy to use (or happy for others to use) and what issues you use them for and how you see that as different to draw reins?
		
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I have used running martingales for jumping and cross country where a horse is excitable and is liable to get its head up too high and not concentrate on the jump. So long as they are not fitted too tight and short then I don't see a problem with them. Difference being that they cannot be increasingly tightened as the rider rides so that the horse becomes over bent and they do not interfere with the horse's ability to bascule and stretch over the jump. I would not use a running martingale for flat work schooling.

I can't think of any other gadget I have/would use, but if you have any specific ones you want to ask about then feel free.




			Any horse can be forced to perform clean transitions with 'normal' reins as much as with draw reins if you apply force.
		
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Yes, but you would have to be a bad rider to force a horse to do something that it is not physically or mentally able to do. When you apply draw reins, this is removed from you as you do not feel the horse's struggles the same.




			Why do you think draw reins stop the rider being able to feel what is going on throughout the horses body?
		
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I know what it feels like to ride in draw reins. The horse is not so free with its body. I cannot imagine how anyone who feels the horse as I do could not appreciate the deadness that draw reins bring to riding.




			Draw reins do not impact on your seat or legs or feel (assuming you use them correctly and I think for this debate to be relevant we should assume they are being used correctly otherwise we could argue a simple snaffle bridle can cause muscle pain and incorrect schooling if used in the wrong way).
		
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Actually, you have made me realise another situation in which draw reins could IMO be useful. That is where a person needs to really concentrate on improving their seat, without having to 'fight' with their horse. Presuming their horse is being rather difficult (for whatever reason), and assuming the horse is physically capable of working that way.


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## Wagtail (27 September 2012)

millitiger said:



			I actually disagree with the BD bitting list as it excludes some very mild bits (and also bitless) and from your other posts I was surprised you see no BD legal bit as an aid or possible gadget.

So which ridden gadgets are you ok with then? This post is already long and maybe tedious for others so why stop now? 

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I think that anything could be classed as a gadget if the term was applied to the letter. Therefore we have to draw the line somewhere.


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## Goldenstar (27 September 2012)

All tack is gadgets it's just that simple, a weak back horsed opening it mouth raising it head in a simple snaffle and running forward can do untold damage to its self if it's rider is not experianced balanced and trained to to train.
Bitless bridles can be the work of the devil if they don't suit the horse and are not well used the list is almost endless .
Standing martingales used well in the right situation can be a extremely useful thing especially when riding away baby's .
I could go on and on the knack is to use the right thing at the time and in the right way .
To single out the draw rein is silly as trainers many of us will have pet hates mine is the use of the Pessoa which I could though in great technical detail why I think it's counterproductive but i wont and I also dislike the use of strong poll pressure on the lunge although I accept the bungee rein will help many horses to lunge so do use if I think it will help.
You can go on and on with this for ever.


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## Wagtail (27 September 2012)

The following is a quote from Jessica Jahiel and can be found here www.horse-sense.org. It more or less sums up my feelings on the subject and also says a bit about side reins too. 

1.There is no situation in which I would recommend using draw reins. 
2.I don't think that there IS a correct use, that is, a use that is compatible with correct, systematic, progressive training. The only acceptable - and I mean MARGINALLY acceptable - use correct use of draw reins is completely hypothetical. It would be the brief (no more than a few minutes) deployment of draw reins on a sound, comfortable, sensible but poorly-trained horse, after a full warm-up, by an extremely light-handed rider, to show the horse that it COULD carry its head and neck in a different position than the one it habitually adopted. The draw reins would be used in this way for no more than a few minutes, and then removed. This would be repeated on the following day, and again on the following day - after which the draw reins would be put back into the "useless equipment" box for the NEXT fifty years or more. ;-)
 I say that this is completely hypothetical, because I have never yet met a truly good rider or trainer who used draw reins, ever, for any purpose, and I have never yet met any horse that could not be taught what the rider wanted WITHOUT the use of additional force and leverage. On the other hand, I have met hundreds of riders and trainers who use draw reins in an attempt to substitute force for understanding, or as an attempt to achieve a "look" that needs to be acquired by the actual development of the horse's body and understanding, or as a way to dominate a horse they believe to be "challenging them". I do not agree with or accept any of this, and I can honestly say that I've never seen a situation in which a horse was HELPED by draw reins (although I've seen thousands of instances of horses being harmed by them). The example of possible acceptable use that I've given above is not something you are likely to see, because any rider/trainer who could meet the above conditions would also be entirely capable of achieving his or her goal correctly and without force, and so would not have any reason to put on a set of draw reins.



3.Some people believe that it's the horse's job to submit to the rider's demands, no matter how inept the rider, and no matter how physically impossible a particular demand may be for a horse to meet. Draw reins are popular with those humans who get a thrill out of domination.
 Some people are lazy, and although they want their horse to look like a highly-trained, upper-level horse, they are unwilling to put in the necessary work to develop the animal's body and mind. They see draw reins as a way to achieve the "look" they want, without understanding that although they can force the horse's head down and pull its neck into a tight curve, they haven't achieved anything useful, and the "look" they create won't fool a real horseman, or a horse, for a single second.

Some people are simply uneducated, and allow themselves to be fooled by fast-talking, self-styled "trainers" who promote the use of such gadgetry. Others lack an understanding of leverage, and imagine that adding draw reins and/or a more severe bit allows them to be "lighter" or "softer" with their hands! They truly don't understand that all this does is allow them to cause a much larger amount of pain to the horse with much less effort.



4.People who are dependent on draw reins stay that way for a number of reasons. Some feel that this is the only way they have "control" over their horses, and are unwilling to allow a horse more freedom with its head and neck in case it does something they might not be able to handle. It's also very difficult for people - in any context, not just draw reins, and not just riding - to face up to the fact that they've been badly taught and have learned to do something the wrong way, and it's even more difficult for people in that situation to resolve to stop doing whatever it is the wrong way and start doing it the right way. And if they've been badly taught, they probably don't have any idea of how to start over. If they do have an idea of what's involved in starting over, they may be daunted by the amount of work and time it will take... there are a lot of reasons that people cling to their gadgets.


5.A horse that has been worked in draw reins for a long time is probably extremely sore, if not actually lame, and will require a great deal of remedial work before it can be put back on a more reasonable training "track". A good trainer can take one look at a horse and tell you whether it's been worked in draw reins - the horse's musculature develops incorrectly through the neck and back. It takes a long time, a lot of slow, patient, correct work, and usually quite a lot of help from trigger-point massage and passive stretching before such a horse can be helped back to a point from which correct training will ALLOW it to develop properly. I've worked with horses like this and found 50 or more trigger-points in their necks alone - each one of which requires attention and regular massage over a period of months, before the horse can be put into proper work. Fortunately, some good-hearted, patient riders are willing to learn the skills and put in the time and effort necessary to salvage their horses. It takes infinite patience, and can be heartbreaking, to spend months coaxing a horse to begin to uncurl its neck, use its back and hindquarters again, and develop the ability to reach toward the bit. It's even more heartbreaking to reach this point at last, only to realize that the long-term effect of the draw reins damaged not only the horse's mind and jaw and neck and back, but its hocks as well, and that it will never be really sound again.


6.Side reins are almost as abused as draw reins; the difference is that side reins can actually serve a useful purpose if used correctly. Side reins, loosely adjusted, can help a horse learn to move forward whilst accepting light contact from the bit, but again, they must be used correctly - at a trot ONLY, because the horse's head and neck remain steady at that gait, not at walk or at canter, when a horse in training will need to make balancing gestures with its head and neck. Too-loose, flapping side reins will only annoy the horse; too-tight side reins will restrict the horse's head and neck movement, and set the horse up for lameness by causing tension in the horse's jaw, neck, and back.
 In an advanced horse, working correctly at the upper levels of dressage, side reins can also be used at canter, because the horse at that level has learned to use its entire body and back, which makes large balancing gestures unnecessary, and so minimizes the movement of its head and neck. But side reins can only be used to confirm collection - NEVER to create it!
 Although side reins can be used in ways that don't cause harm - you can teach a young horse to trot confidently, in balance on the longeline, in contact with the bit, without the weight of a rider - they are usually NOT correctly used or even correctly adjusted. Both side reins and draw reins create a great deal of work for equine chiropractors and massage therapists. If you want to use side reins, familiarize yourself with their correct use and adjustment, be SURE that you know how to longe really well (take lessons!), and use sliding sidereins - either the Lauffer reins or the so-called Vienna-style (the former are attached at two points on the surcingle, the latter are attached to the girth and the surcingle.

I'm glad that you don't use draw reins. You are right on both counts - they have no place in dressage, and you probably don't have the experience and education to use them. Over the years, if you meet and work with enough truly good trainers, you will probably find, as I did, that those few individuals who DO have enough experience and education to be able to use draw reins without causing harm to the horse NEVER USE DRAW REINS AT ALL. In fact, they tend to regard draw reins with the same horror that they would regard a bit with a razor-blade mouthpiece!

There's never a "right" time for draw reins, because if you're so good at riding and training that you can use them in a helpful way, you know many better, more legitimate and productive and effective ways of helping the horse, and if you aren't that good, you have no business using them at all. Interesting, isn't it? ;-)


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## millitiger (27 September 2012)

Wagtail said:



			I am not talking about a course of proper jumps, just small cross poles. My mare who was used to jumping Newcomers barely bothered to lift herself off the ground. 

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I was more thinking if she tripped or got on an awfully bad stride due to her novice rider and needed the full range of her head and neck to save herself and her jockey.
Absolutely nothing to do with her scope or experience.



Wagtail said:



			I have said that using draw reins for safety is not an issue for me. I would not have given my small boys a set of draw reins to use on my mare however, for obvious reasons. The side reins were there to stop her putting her head down to eat and I gave it as an example of the kind of exceptions I would make for the use of gadgets ridden.
		
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Not sure I suggested giving them draw reins at any point but thanks for clarifying.
And as my point was about you using gadgets to solve issues I presumed you would give an example where there was an issue to be solved, rather than using it as a seatbelt 'just in case.'




Wagtail said:



			I have used running martingales for jumping and cross country where a horse is excitable and is liable to get its head up too high and not concentrate on the jump. So long as they are not fitted too tight and short then I don't see a problem with them. Difference being that they cannot be increasingly tightened as the rider rides so that the horse becomes over bent and they do not interfere with the horse's ability to bascule and stretch over the jump. I would not use a running martingale for flat work schooling.
		
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So again, your issue with draw reins is the rider not the reins themselves?
Your caveat of 'not fitted too tight or too short' could equally apply to draw reins, it just requires a rider who is aware of rein length.

I'll ignore the fact that a running martingale acts by jabbing the horse in the mouth and you are happy to use that but not happy to use a flash as you don't agree with strapping their mouth shut...



Wagtail said:



			Yes, but you would have to be a bad rider to force a horse to do something that it is not physically or mentally able to do. When you apply draw reins, this is removed from you as you do not feel the horse's struggles the same.
		
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And you would have to be an equally bad rider to force a horse with draw reins surely? As long as the draw reins are not overtightened you can still feel a horse struggle.



Wagtail said:



			I know what it feels like to ride in draw reins. The horse is not so free with its body. I cannot imagine how anyone who feels the horse as I do could not appreciate the deadness that draw reins bring to riding.
		
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Have you schooled in draw reins though? Or just used them as a safety net?
I've not had a dead feeling from draw reins yet but I do know the feeling you mean, when it feels like the bridle is hung up on a hook rather than on a live animal- I get that feeling down the reins from Myler bits actually 

The same as cptrayes was petty to bring up the 'my horse is naughtier than yours' argument, I think it is pretty poor to get into a 'my feel is better than yours' as well. [/QUOTE]


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## millitiger (27 September 2012)

Goldenstar said:



			All tack is gadgets it's just that simple, a weak back horsed opening it mouth raising it head in a simple snaffle and running forward can do untold damage to its self if it's rider is not experianced balanced and trained to to train.
Bitless bridles can be the work of the devil if they don't suit the horse and are not well used the list is almost endless .
Standing martingales used well in the right situation can be a extremely useful thing especially when riding away baby's .
I could go on and on the knack is to use the right thing at the time and in the right way .
To single out the draw rein is silly as trainers many of us will have pet hates mine is the use of the Pessoa which I could though in great technical detail why I think it's counterproductive but i wont and I also dislike the use of strong poll pressure on the lunge although I accept the bungee rein will help many horses to lunge so do use if I think it will help.
You can go on and on with this for ever.
		
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I so agree with every word of this post


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## millitiger (27 September 2012)

Wagtail, so now we are all bad riders as no truly good rider has ever used draw reins for any reason? As you have used them yourself you can never be a good rider, really?

She also says side reins should only be used at trot, never at canter (and therefore certainly not to jump!) and not too loose otherwise they annoy the horse- isn't this exactly what you did with your horse? 

So odd that you agree wholeheartedly with someone who is against what you practice, hypothetically agrees with using draw reins for short periods to show a horse how to work and thnks that anyone who has ever used draw reins is a bad rider?

Couldn't we continue to debate or let the thread fall down the pages gracefully rather than resorting to quoting irrelevant text from other websites?


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## Wagtail (27 September 2012)

millitiger said:



			I was more thinking if she tripped or got on an awfully bad stride due to her novice rider and needed the full range of her head and neck to save herself and her jockey.
Absolutely nothing to do with her scope or experience.
		
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As I say, they were really loose and would not have prevented her from recovering. No way would she have tripped in the well levelled surface, and if she did the she could just as easily trodden on her reins! I think this is getting a little far fetched now.




			Not sure I suggested giving them draw reins at any point but thanks for clarifying.
And as my point was about you using gadgets to solve issues I presumed you would give an example where there was an issue to be solved, rather than using it as a seatbelt 'just in case.'
		
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In that case, no, I have never used one to solve a training issue.




			So again, your issue with draw reins is the rider not the reins themselves?
Your caveat of 'not fitted too tight or too short' could equally apply to draw reins, it just requires a rider who is aware of rein length.

I'll ignore the fact that a running martingale acts by jabbing the horse in the mouth and you are happy to use that but not happy to use a flash as you don't agree with strapping their mouth shut...
		
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No, my issue is not only with incorrect use, but with the fact that they are completely unnecessary within a correct training programme. And running martingales cannot possibly jab a horse in the mouth. Only a person with bad hands can do that.





			And you would have to be an equally bad rider to force a horse with draw reins surely? As long as the draw reins are not overtightened you can still feel a horse struggle.
		
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I don't think we can ever agree on this. If you are holding the draw reins so as to prevent the horse from throwing up its head then much of the force and feel is taken up by the anchor where the rein is attached to the girth. The feel cannot possibly be the same. It is very muted.




			Have you schooled in draw reins though? Or just used them as a safety net?
I've not had a dead feeling from draw reins yet but I do know the feeling you mean, when it feels like the bridle is hung up on a hook rather than on a live animal- I get that feeling down the reins from Myler bits actually 

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Yes, I used to school in draw reins. The last time I used them was 7 years ago.




			The same as cptrayes was petty to bring up the 'my horse is naughtier than yours' argument, I think it is pretty poor to get into a 'my feel is better than yours' as well.
		
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That was not my intention. I was simply saying that is the way I 'feel' the horse. I like to feel it with all freedom to move. Strapping draw reins on it dulls this feeling for me.


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## kirstykate (27 September 2012)

^^^^^

This exactly, even a head collar and a lead rope in the wrong hands is fatal.


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## Wagtail (27 September 2012)

millitiger said:



			Wagtail, so now we are all bad riders as no truly good rider has ever used draw reins for any reason? As you have used them yourself you can never be a good rider, really?

She also says side reins should only be used at trot, never at canter (and therefore certainly not to jump!) and not too loose otherwise they annoy the horse- isn't this exactly what you did with your horse? 

So odd that you agree wholeheartedly with someone who is against what you practice, hypothetically agrees with using draw reins for short periods to show a horse how to work and thnks that anyone who has ever used draw reins is a bad rider?

Couldn't we continue to debate or let the thread fall down the pages gracefully rather than resorting to quoting irrelevant text from other websites?
		
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She says that use of side reins on a well schooled horse is fine in canter. My horse was schooling at advanced medium level at the time. Also, I said 'more or less' , not 'entirely'.


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## millitiger (27 September 2012)

Wagtail said:



			No, my issue is not only with incorrect use, but with the fact that they are completely unnecessary within a correct training programme. And running martingales cannot possibly jab a horse in the mouth. Only a person with bad hands can do that.
		
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Seriously?

What do you think the action of a running martingale is, how do you think it works?


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## Wagtail (27 September 2012)

Why is the text I quoted irrelevant?


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## millitiger (27 September 2012)

It's irrelevant because you don't agree with it all so how can we possibly debate it when you then decide you don't agree with the part I've picked up on?

And btw, your mare may have been schooling at AdM level, but I doubt she was working at that level with a 7yro child on board?
So the rest of the author's sentence for using them in canter has been disregarded to fit with what you want it to read.


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## Wagtail (27 September 2012)

millitiger said:



			Seriously?

What do you think the action of a running martingale is, how do you think it works?
		
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Jabbing is a quick sharp movement. If a rider has a correct feel on the rein this is impossible, because the hand will follow the movement and then take back the rein without jabbing. If a martingale is fitted correctly it simply angles the rein downwards. It is not a jabbing action. Just as draw reins are not jabbing.


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## millitiger (27 September 2012)

Wagtail said:



			Jabbing is a quick sharp movement. If a rider has a correct feel on the rein this is impossible. If a martingale is fitted correctly it simply angles the rein downwards. It is not a jabbing action. Just as draw reins are not jabbing. 

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So you don't think a running martingale can jab a horse if it violently flings it's head skywards? 

Or if it drops behind the contact for a split second and then throws it's head backwards towards the rider? Of course it will be jabbed by the martingale.

As you say jabbing is a quick, sharp movement- so if the horse makes a quick, sharp movement upwards with its head, the leather strap attached to its chest will quickly get to its maximum reach and will result in a quick, sharp movement on the rein, hence the horse can be jabbed in the mouth.


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## Wagtail (27 September 2012)

millitiger said:



			It's irrelevant because you don't agree with it all so how can we possibly debate it when you then decide you don't agree with the part I've picked up on?

And btw, your mare may have been schooling at AdM level, but I doubt she was working at that level with a 7yro child on board?
So the rest of the author's sentence for using them in canter has been disregarded to fit with what you want it to read.
		
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Working at advanced medium level means a horse that is completely able to hold and balance itself in the absence of any training aids. Therefore side reins are not detrimental to their training in canter.


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## kirstykate (27 September 2012)

We use them to round horses back, engage hock and lighten front end but most people use them just to drop a horses head.


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## millitiger (27 September 2012)

Wagtail said:



			Working at advanced medium level means a horse that is completely able to hold and balance itself in the absence of any training aids. Therefore side reins are not detrimental to their training in canter.
		
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Of course an AdM horse can carry itself without training aids, who said it couldn't? It might need a competent rider to stay in that outline and with that power and elevation though?

If you want to kid yourself that your horse kept itself in an AdM outline when being jumped by 2 x novice children, ok then.


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## Wagtail (27 September 2012)

millitiger said:



			Of course an AdM horse can carry itself without training aids, who said it couldn't? It might need a competent rider to stay in that outline and with that power and elevation though?

If you want to kid yourself that your horse kept itself in an AdM outline when being jumped by 2 x novice children, ok then.
		
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I don't think you are reading the quotation correctly, Millitiger. She says they are fine to use in canter on a horse that is at that level of training, not that they have to actually be working in an advanced outline or be ridden by an advanced rider. I also think that this thread is becoming unnecesarily pedantic on both sides and so I will bow out until/if the thread takes a more useful direction.

But thank you for remaining both calm and for not resorting to bitchiness. I have enjoyed most of our discussion.


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## Wagtail (27 September 2012)

kirstykate said:



			We use them to round horses back, engage hock and lighten front end but most people use them just to drop a horses head.
		
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Are you not wanting to do this without them though?


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## kirstykate (27 September 2012)

Its how we start them off, then they dont know any different it makes life alot easier and quicker and there is far less arguments along the way


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## Wagtail (27 September 2012)

kirstykate said:



			Its how we start them off, then they dont know any different it makes life alot easier and quicker and there is far less arguments along the way
		
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I understand what you are saying from the rider's perspective, but are you saying you put a newly backed horse in draw reins?


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## kirstykate (27 September 2012)

Once we know there will be no funny business, yes we do, we use them as part of a round house, whilst we are loosing/lunging the youngsters as well.


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## cptrayes (27 September 2012)

Wagtail said:



			I know what it feels like to ride in draw reins. The horse is not so free with its body. I cannot imagine how anyone who feels the horse as I do could not appreciate the deadness that draw reins bring to riding.
		
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Most of my feel of what the horse is doing is from my seat and my body, just as most of my instructions to it are. Draw reins do not diminish body feel in the slightest. Used the way I use them, they do not diminish feel from the hand either.


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## Nightmare before Christmas (27 September 2012)

Tina fletcher did a great demo at blue chip about using draw reins to improve the show jumper. She also jumped a x poles with placing poles to explain how this can improve the technique of the horse. She then took them off and there was a difference and it lasted throughout the length of the demo. I use draw reins at home in the same way (not on all horses) and I often see people warming up in them at shows, especially in the bigger classes/shows


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## cptrayes (27 September 2012)

Wagtail said:



			Blimey, Cptrayes, you really do have an incredibly high opinion of your abilities, to state that _no one _could have done what you have done or ridden the same types of horses as you have without draw reins.
		
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Yup, almost as high as yours in believing that there is no horse in the world that cannot more effectively, quickly and/or humanely be trained with short periods in draw reins than by your methods 

You are twisting my words again. I did not say it could not be done, I said that with some temperamental horses it could not be done _any more effectively or quickly or humanely_. There are plenty of ways to do it and draw reins is one in the armoury. Just as lots of people break horses without ever using a Pessoa, there is more than one way to skin the cat.




			But I do find it concerning that you are so ready to presume that horses are just being difficult because they are naughty.
		
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I have never said that because it would be stupid. By attributing that to me you are accusing me of not knowing when a horse is or is not in physical as opposed to mental difficulty.


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## cptrayes (27 September 2012)

badgermyers said:



			Tina fletcher did a great demo at blue chip about using draw reins to improve the show jumper. She also jumped a x poles with placing poles to explain how this can improve the technique of the horse. She then took them off and there was a difference and it lasted throughout the length of the demo. I use draw reins at home in the same way (not on all horses) and I often see people warming up in them at shows, especially in the bigger classes/shows
		
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I believe that most showjumpers use them and always have. Which gives the lie to the assertion that it stops a horse working properly through its back, since they jump such huge obstacles after training in them. Clearly their backs are working fine.


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## kirstykate (27 September 2012)

cptrayes said:



			I believe that most showjumpers use them and always have. Which gives the lie to the assertion that it stops a horse working properly through its back, since they jump such huge obstacles after training in them. Clearly their backs are working fine.
		
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Which exactly why they use them, OH has to show jumped and produces to a high level and its a piece of equipment he wont be with out.


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