# High Protein feeds fed to horses....



## KatB (7 October 2009)

Good? Or bad?! Ive always thought very high protein levels wouldnt be healthy for a horse... but noticed an increase in popularity of high protein feeds! Thoughts on this? What ill effects could be caused?


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## flyingfeet (7 October 2009)

I've noticed this too as now it seems oats bad and soya good. Maybe its because the trend is towards "conditioning" mixes?

That said I had good success with top spec turbo oats which have the soya beans added. 

I found i could replicate by using flaked peas and oats, gives that extra fizz I was after (and cheaper than the top spec)


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## Fiona (7 October 2009)

We feed D&amp;H Just grass and a cool mix.  I'm not at a livery yard though, so possibly miss out on the trendsetting/trying something new sort of thing.  I am v boring when it comes to feed really.

To answer your question - I would say bad (unless a TB racehorse).

Fiona


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## SirenaXVI (8 October 2009)

[ QUOTE ]
We feed D&amp;H Just grass and a cool mix.  I'm not at a livery yard though, so possibly miss out on the trendsetting/trying something new sort of thing.  I am v boring when it comes to feed really.

To answer your question - I would say bad (unless a TB racehorse).

Fiona 

[/ QUOTE ]

Protein is most certainly NOT bad, it is vital for muscle development and regeneration, protein has no effect whatsoever on temperament and it always makes me laugh when people tell me their horse is allergic to protein, as without it the horse would be dead!  

So protein is good, but it must be good quality - soya is a brilliant source.


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## TGM (8 October 2009)

One factor to consider is the quantities of the high protein feeds given.  For example, a lot of balancers are high in protein but are fed at very low rates - typically about 500g - the idea being to lift a relatively low protein diet (eg mainly average/poor hay) to the ideal protein levels for an average horse.

On the other hand, if you fed a lot of high protein hay (alfalfa, for example) then that would have a much bigger effect on the overall protein level of the diet.

Experts seemed to be rather divided about whether feeding more protein than the horse actually needs is harmful, but most seem to feel it is at least wasteful as high protein feeds are expensive and any excess protein is just broken down in the body, not stored.  However, most believe that feeding excess protein does not bring any extra benefits, and there are some studies that suggest it can adversely affect performance in endurance and race-horses.


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## TGM (8 October 2009)

To be fair to Fiona, she wasn't saying protein was bad in itself, but that very high protein diets were likely to be bad!  (She was answering the question in the OP!)


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## Mike007 (8 October 2009)

There are two issues,protein quantity, and protein quality.Protein is composed of amino acids. These are further subdivided into essential(the body cannot synthesise these from other amino acids)and non essential.Every protein in the body contains a very specific construction of aminoacids.If any one essential aminoacid is not present,the protein cannot be produced.If overall there is insufficient quantity of aminoacids,also ,proteins cannot be produced.                        The body does not store surplus aminoacids,they are broken down by a process called deamination.This occurs in the liver. Excess protein puts a strain on the liver and can be harmfull. The fad for high protein levels is not new .People have merely forgotten the effects.                                                           A fit horse has a smaller requirement for protein than an unfit horse because there is little requirement for it ,other than repair and replacement,whereas an unfit horse requires it also for construction of new protein,(Muscle has a very high protein content).                                                                 To sum up,Overall protein quality,is vitally important. Poor quality results in inadequate protein synthesis ,and excessive deamination.Feeding high levels is not the answer ,it merely puts additional strain on the liver.                                         Feeding high levels of high quality protein also puts strain on the liver,but does not increase protein synthesis.


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## KatB (8 October 2009)

Thamks Mike, thats what I was looking for. I know protein is vital, and I know it has no effect on temperament, but I wandered if high levels would have negative effects and could contribute to physical problems? Only reason I ask is an increasingly popular conditioning feed is VERY high (about 25% ) protein, and I remember someone I respected very highly saying he wouldnt feed it because the protein level was too high, but I couldnt remember what the ill effects were. 
I feed high protein chaff (alfa Oil) and a balancer, but my horse is developing so needs to building blocks for muscle. 

I just wander whether the additional strain put on a horse from being fed high protein diets could contribute to other illness's that may occur due to the body being under strain processing something it wouldnt naturally....


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## CBFan (8 October 2009)

I will in future steer clear of high protein balancers for growing youngsters as I believe they can have a deterimental effect on their growth in that they can encourage them to grow too big and too fast resulting in numerous developmental disorders including OCD and growth plate problems. I'm not saying that these disorders dont occur in animals not fed high protein diets but I don't believe they would be as bad...

in working horses. like everything I believe they have their place but I think people should ask themselves what is right for their horse before jumping on the bandwaggon.


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## Fiona (8 October 2009)

Is excess protein (over and above what is needed by the body obviously) not implicated in tieing-up etc.

Thanks TGM for sticking up for me above BTW - I would hardly feed Just Grass if I were against 'protein' per se.  I just dislike it in a compound 'quick release energy' type feed (unless as I said - the horse is a TB racehorse).

Fiona


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## Mike007 (8 October 2009)

[ QUOTE ]
Is excess protein (over and above what is needed by the body obviously) not implicated in tieing-up etc.

Thanks TGM for sticking up for me above BTW - I would hardly feed Just Grass if I were against 'protein' per se.  I just dislike it in a compound 'quick release energy' type feed (unless as I said - the horse is a TB racehorse).

Fiona 

[/ QUOTE ]We all used to believe that excess protein was the villain in tying up(azoturia),in the same way that it was blamed for laminitis.Some very interesting clinicly based evidence has been coming from America ,linking carbohydrate metabolism (or rather its failure)with tying up and other less noticable problems. I reccomend anyone interested to do a search on PPSM or EPSM and start reading!


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## BeckyD (9 October 2009)

My vet was saying only in August that too many people feed too much protein to horses, even TBs like Ronnie.  He feels that protein can be a bad thing as it can cause joint/bone problems especially when fed to young horses who are still growing, causing them to grow quicker/more without the strength to support it.  I think that was the gist of his point.


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## TGM (9 October 2009)

QR:

Part of the problem is that often foods that are rich in protein are also rich in soluble carbohydrates, so in the past protein has got the blame for causing things like laminitis, when it was really the soluble carbs that were the trigger!


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## Rouletterose (9 October 2009)

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Is excess protein (over and above what is needed by the body obviously) not implicated in tieing-up etc.

Thanks TGM for sticking up for me above BTW - I would hardly feed Just Grass if I were against 'protein' per se.  I just dislike it in a compound 'quick release energy' type feed (unless as I said - the horse is a TB racehorse).

Fiona 

[/ QUOTE ]We all used to believe that excess protein was the villain in tying up(azoturia),in the same way that it was blamed for laminitis.Some very interesting clinicly based evidence has been coming from America ,linking carbohydrate metabolism (or rather its failure)with tying up and other less noticable problems. I reccomend anyone interested to do a search on PPSM or EPSM and start reading! 

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks to you MIKE for pointing me in the right direction with regard to occasional tying up. I looked up and researched what you told me PPSM and EPSM and it is excess STARCH that causes tying up - not protein. Protein is good providing the horse is doing enough work, a horse that is in med work can have higher levels of protein without causing exciteability or tying up. It is excess starch ie cereals that cause the problems. I am now feeding Saracen re-leve and Stamm30 and my two are fab with no excess exciteability, the Stamm is the balancer and they only have an eggcupfull a day of that.





 Same old saying really "all good in moderation"


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## marmalade76 (9 October 2009)

I am just introducing D&amp;H Ultimate Balancer into my horses's feed and I intend to feed it with oats, chaff and sugar beet. I decided to feed this because I can only feed him once a day (out 24/7) and he now has a sharer so will be doing a lot more work and he can't have all he needs of a normal feed in one meal. I am now worried that this isn't the right thing to do. Help!


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## hellybelly6 (9 October 2009)

Mares milk is 12% protein and it is recommended that whatever protein content is of the milk that amount should not be exceeded.

My horse had a diet of high protein - accidentally I may add, and I damaged his kidneys.


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## Mike007 (9 October 2009)

[ QUOTE ]
I am just introducing D&amp;H Ultimate Balancer into my horses's feed and I intend to feed it with oats, chaff and sugar beet. I decided to feed this because I can only feed him once a day (out 24/7) and he now has a sharer so will be doing a lot more work and he can't have all he needs of a normal feed in one meal. I am now worried that this isn't the right thing to do. Help! 
	
	
		
		
	


	





[/ QUOTE ]The best advice I can offer is to contact the people at D&amp;H ,they are very helpfull and you can discuss the problem with them ,at length.


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## marmalade76 (10 October 2009)

I did, thats what they recommended.


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## TarrSteps (10 October 2009)

I believe the Germans did a big study years ago on protein requirements in performance horses, specifically with regard to feeding their Team horses, and found the optimal AVAILABLE level (see Mike's post above) was 10-12%.  Any more than that was either wasteful or counter productive, depending on the circumstances.


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## TGM (10 October 2009)

Just to clarify that is 10-12% in the TOTAL diet, including forage.  A ryegrass haylage might be about 9-12% protein, so near the optimum level, so no need (and probably undesirable) to add a high protein bucket feed.  However, protein levels in average and poor hay might be much lower, so adding a high protein feed can bring the protein level of the whole diet up to the optimum level.


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