# No real control.



## Pale Rider (15 September 2013)

Just heard about someone who was trying to lead a horse using a bridle because it was difficult and they wanted more 'control'. Anyway, they've had an accident and been klonked on the shoulder. It's a myth that a bit and bridle give you control. You need a rope headcollar, a 12 foot line and respect from the horse. If you don't have all three, leave well alone.


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## *hic* (15 September 2013)

Tell you what, you try my Section D with that kit and I will watch in amusement as he pisses off with you. Then I'll lead him past the same objects wtih his bridle on.

Not all solutions work all of the time - knowing that is what makes horsemen, not adherence to some guru's way of thinking.


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## Pearlsasinger (15 September 2013)

I usually prefer to use a rope halter but of the traditional 'cow' variety.  However I wouldn't use a 12' line.  IMO, the further you are from the horse's shoulder, the greater the risk.  I will agree though the horse needs to know that you know what you are doing.


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## Kallibear (15 September 2013)

Yes and no. 

A bridle gives you more 'control' because you can easily hurt a horse who's pissing about and they usually 'respect' that and listen to what you're telling them. So a bridle definitely gives far more control for a bulshy rude horse.

However a bridle is no substitute for good manners and training. If you 'need' a bridle then you've missed some very important lessons in their training.  Nobody should 'need' a bridle to lead their horse on a daily basis. 

And sometimes bridles make it worse.  My big youngster is trained in a halter and 12ft rope (mostly because I like their weight and feel of it) and is extremely polite and well behaved even if he occasionally gets over excite and needs reminded.  He's WORSE in a bridle because if he needs a firm 'No!', the pain really upsets him and he can't concentrate on what you're saying.


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## MrsNorris (15 September 2013)

Kallibear said:



			Yes and no. 

A bridle gives you more 'control' because you can easily hurt a horse who's pissing about and they usually 'respect' that and listen to what you're telling them. So a bridle definitely gives far more control for a bulshy rude horse.

However a bridle is no substitute for good manners and training. If you 'need' a bridle then you've missed some very important lessons in their training.  Nobody should 'need' a bridle to lead their horse on a daily basis. 

And sometimes bridles make it worse.  My big youngster is trained in a halter and 12ft rope (mostly because I like their weight and feel of it) and is extremely polite and well behaved even if he occasionally gets over excite and needs reminded.  He's WORSE in a bridle because if he needs a firm 'No!', the pain really upsets him and he can't concentrate on what you're saying.
		
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Agree wholeheartedly with this..


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## Goldenstar (15 September 2013)

There's lots of ways to do things.
Person leading in bridle gets hurt therefore leading in bridle is wrong is simply as logical view as saying person riding horse in saddle falls off therefore never use a saddle .


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## Shantara (15 September 2013)

Cookie and Ned are good in either 

When Ned was going through his naughty "you're not going to take me out the gate" stage, head collar, bridle, rope halter, Dually...nothing was "better" and I didn't have more control using one or the other. He was throwing a strop and that was that. 

But now he's fine to be lead in anything. In fact, when he escaped, I lead him home in a head collar and normal lead rope. He was foot perfect the whole way, even though we usually have a bit of a blast through those fields. Didn't get strong and listened the entire time.


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## doriangrey (15 September 2013)

Hang on, if your horse respects you, you don't need a headcollar or a rope because it follows you regardless   TIC!!


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## Kallibear (15 September 2013)

Pearlsasinger said:



			I usually prefer to use a rope halter but of the traditional 'cow' variety.  However I wouldn't use a 12' line.  IMO, the further you are from the horse's shoulder, the greater the risk.  I will agree though the horse needs to know that you know what you are doing.
		
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See, I very much dislike the cow halters. They slip, they over tighten and the leads too short to get out the way if needed. A normal horsey rope halter has the same kind of pressure but without the draw backs (plus they're easier to put on  )

The 12ft rope isn't really to give you distance from a horse although they are very very useful for that should the horse rear.  It allows you to step back out the way of the feet without having to let go. I've used it exactly for that quite a few times when Roo first arrived as he did so love to wave his feet about in the air in excitement. Sigh. 

I mostly like the 12ft rope because it's a nice weight and feel to hold. It also doesn't get wet and soggy and dirty like most lead ropes! 

It's very useful for being able to step backwards and to the side to yank the head round (bit like a one rein stop) should you need to.

 It allows your reactions to be a little slower if you're not paying attention (who, me?!). When a horse startles and spooks it takes them a split second to re engage their brain and stop and think about it. If they hit resistance within that time (e.g a shorter rope with a human attached to the end) they're prone to going into a panic. That little bit of extra space gives a tiny bit longer for them to think. It's very rare for a startled horse to keep struggling and pulling by that time. 

I also use the end to direct and move the feet and backend about (makes a lovely whirly noise) which is the real and official reason for it's length. And for things like lifting legs and wrapping round their girth and asking them to step towards you. 

And it's a god send for over excited babies to have their little paddy slightly further away!


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## Auslander (15 September 2013)

I have a normal headcollar, a standard length leadrope, and respect from my horse - so I guess that's even better?


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## Capriole (15 September 2013)

Auslander said:



			I have a normal headcollar, a standard length leadrope, and respect from my horse - so I guess that's even better?
		
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Ah your horse is too big for you, you only think you've got control, really he's taking you for a walk you just don't know it 

Must be laundry day, see the judgy pants are out of the wash and being worn again.


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## doriangrey (15 September 2013)

Auslander said:



			I have a normal headcollar, a standard length leadrope, and respect from my horse - so I guess that's even better?
		
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Exactly.  What is a 12ft rope anyway - it doesn't sound like a long rope the way Kallibear describes it (sorry if I misunderstand Kallibear).


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## Tinypony (15 September 2013)

A 12ft rope is a rope that is 12ft long.

Actually, I think they tend to be a little bit less than that these days, as things have gone metric.


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## Pearlsasinger (15 September 2013)

I can't think of anything easier to put on than a cow halter.  I agree that you have to make sure that it isn't over the horse's eye, as you do it.  I have led some extremely difficult horses in cow halters, notably on a narrow path between two water courses, in the dark, daily for years.  Schooling whip in one hand, halter rope in the other, senses alert.  Watch the horse and be ready to divert any misbehaviour.  I find that if you are close to the shoulder, you have greater control, the schooling whip also makes a good swishy noise which can move a horse forward well.


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## kerrieberry2 (15 September 2013)

my horses will lead fine in anything!  like you say, respect!  I think that is the most important thing!

my young horse was perfect to lead until I started using a rope halter, he then learnt to rear and we discovered he had a so poll!  I swapped to a dually, but the physio asked me to stop using it as his poll was still sore, so we've reverted back to a standard head collar and a bridle to get him used to it before he is backed!

but like you say, I don't think a bridle really gives you extra control?


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## kerrieberry2 (15 September 2013)

Pearlsasinger said:



			I usually prefer to use a rope halter but of the traditional 'cow' variety.  However I wouldn't use a 12' line.  IMO, the further you are from the horse's shoulder, the greater the risk.  I will agree though the horse needs to know that you know what you are doing.
		
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The one time that I consciously lead my horse at the shoulder, some how he reared up, turned in at me, struck out and booted me in the face!  so after that I always use a 12 foot rope on him!  however, he's learnt to respect me now and stopped being an A hole!!  but still its there just in case!!


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## cptrayes (15 September 2013)

Auslander said:



			I have a normal headcollar, a standard length leadrope, and respect from my horse - so I guess that's even better?
		
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This.

I would be ashamed of myself if I routinely had to use a 12 foot rope to lead my horses.

I find that a bit of baler twine around the neck is usually quite sufficient for both my 17 handers 

I also think it's incorrect that a bridle will never give you more control. I've taken on a few horses whose owners have failed to teach them respect, and had to lead them before I had been able to retrain them. Bridling them certainly did give me more control than a headcollar.


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## Amymay (15 September 2013)

Pale Rider said:



			Just heard about someone who was trying to lead a horse using a bridle because it was difficult and they wanted more 'control'. Anyway, they've had an accident and been klonked on the shoulder. It's a myth that a bit and bridle give you control. You need a rope headcollar, a 12 foot line and respect from the horse. If you don't have all three, leave well alone.
		
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Nope a bridle is perfectly acceptable.


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## doriangrey (15 September 2013)

Tinypony said:



			A 12ft rope is a rope that is 12ft long.

Actually, I think they tend to be a little bit less than that these days, as things have gone metric.
		
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If a 12ft rope is just that, why doesn't it get wet and soggy and dirty like most lead ropes then?


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## lastchancer (15 September 2013)

Yeah because poncing around with a horse on the end of a 12' line is going to be really safe if you're leading up the road isn't it. What a t***.


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## Sparklepony (15 September 2013)

*whispers* mine wear chifneys when they are being plebs! 
They are ex racers they understand chifney means don't mess about! 

Though generally they get chucked out in head collars with ropes or bridle undone if just been ridden!


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## dogatemysalad (15 September 2013)

Agree with CPTrayes. 

 A well trained, known, horse will lead fine with a rope hanging loosely around the neck although I tend to use a rather mundane headcollar and lead rope. Dislike rope halters with a passion, used incorrectly and badly fitted they are a rather unkind piece of kit. The rope around the nose loosened until needed works well instead.

 Bridles have their place and I'd use one for riding and leading on the roads. Doesn't mean the horse needs the extra restraint but with all the random things that can occur once in a blue moon, it's prudent to be prepared.


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## lastchancer (15 September 2013)

Deleted due to error


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## slumdog (15 September 2013)

I use a head collar, clip rope, clip rope round their neck, item of clothing round their neck, just their rug, but sometimes they just follow me with nothing at all. I detest Parelli and have never done NH in my life, we just like and respect each other. Although I never knew it was a competition!


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## lastchancer (15 September 2013)

doriangrey said:



			If a 12ft rope is just that, why doesn't it get wet and soggy and dirty like most lead ropes then?
		
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Because a genuine one is is coated in magic Parelli dust


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## doriangrey (15 September 2013)

What I would like is if the original poster would give me 'some more' rather than lighting the blue touch-paper and standing back.


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## doriangrey (15 September 2013)

lastchancer said:



			Because a genuine one is is coated in magic Parelli dust 

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Tee hee!!


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## Capriole (15 September 2013)

doriangrey said:



			What I would like is if the original poster would give me 'some more' rather than lighting the blue touch-paper and standing back.
		
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Ah it's all good fun, no-one's taking him seriously are they? Are they?! :biggrin3:


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## slumdog (15 September 2013)

I'm sure I read a post on here about a lady leading her (escaped?) pony with her bra! She wins


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## doriangrey (15 September 2013)

Is it a him?


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## Capriole (15 September 2013)

Leading the GG with a DD, awesome.


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## Capriole (15 September 2013)

doriangrey said:



			Is it a him?  

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Isn't it? You know, I thought it was a him for some reason but now you mention it I'm not certain.


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## justabob (15 September 2013)

I usually use his mane to bring in from the field, sometimes I have to use a rope around his neck, like today in high wind and driving rain. Naughty boy. I ride in a bridle though. But I often think ex racehorses are the easiest to handle as they have not had idiots that handled them in their formative years.


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## khalswitz (15 September 2013)

I can lead my horse by the rug if I forget his head collar, he leads perfectly well in normal rope and headcollar, but I would ride and lead or lead on the road in a bridle just for safety. I would use a stallion chain on a horse that had no manners rather than bridle personally, as I feel this helps teach them to lead properly with a headcollar, and have done with success with my last three horses.


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## justabob (15 September 2013)

khalswitz said:



			I can lead my horse by the rug if I forget his head collar, he leads perfectly well in normal rope and headcollar, but I would ride and lead or lead on the road in a bridle just for safety. I would use a stallion chain on a horse that had no manners rather than bridle personally, as I feel this helps teach them to lead properly with a headcollar, and have done with success with my last three horses.
		
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^^ This absolutely!!


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## Auslander (15 September 2013)

Capriole said:



			Ah it's all good fun, no-one's taking him seriously are they? Are they?! :biggrin3:
		
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Nope. Except for him!


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## DressageCob (15 September 2013)

Pale Rider said:



			Just heard about someone who was trying to lead a horse using a bridle because it was difficult and they wanted more 'control'. Anyway, they've had an accident and been klonked on the shoulder. It's a myth that a bit and bridle give you control. You need a rope headcollar, a 12 foot line and respect from the horse. If you don't have all three, leave well alone.
		
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So if I don't have a rope halter and12ft line I shouldn't lead at all? What complete and utter nonsense. 

There is no one rule. It depends on the horse and the situation. A 12ft rope on a road is hardly safe, is it?


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## Kallibear (15 September 2013)

doriangrey said:



			If a 12ft rope is just that, why doesn't it get wet and soggy and dirty like most lead ropes then?
		
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The better quality ones are made of a tightly braided sheathed rope. They're fairly heavy, slightly thicker than a normal rope, don't absorb water and mud (and slobbery food) mostly slide off. They're very flexible and have no 'memory' (uncoil instantly rather than hold shape for a little while). There's nothing magical about them, they're just a nice size weight and material to hold and a useful length..   You do get normal length ropes of the same material although they're hard to find.

Conversely I HATE tightly twisted standard length cotton leadropes. Bloody impractical things. Apart from the matchy matchy potential. 12st ropes are usually boring colours


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## Kallibear (15 September 2013)

They're also apparently tasty. Thankfully they're pretty chew resistant too!


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## justabob (15 September 2013)

I have these ropes you talk about. I get them from a shop in the Lake District where I live. They are climbing ropes, they do handle very well, they cost very little too............. from a shop that has climbing stuff.............. the same as the PP ropes.


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## snooples (15 September 2013)

Whats the point of a 12 foot rope, why is it better than a normal rope...

I can lead my horse with a piece of baler twine. However Iv worked in a raceyard with young very fit flat racehorses, if you put the equipment on them as described in the op you would be killed. Chifney or Bridle only.


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## Kallibear (15 September 2013)

justabob said:



			I have these ropes you talk about. I get them from a shop in the Lake District where I live. They are climbing ropes, they do handle very well, they cost very little too............. from a shop that has climbing stuff.............. the same as the PP ropes.
		
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That's them! Mine isn't a Prat Parreli rope but same idea. Think mine was about £20 about 10yrs ago so not particulary cheap but not ridiculous. Often though about buying the rope and making my own but putting the clip on and sorting the end would be a faff.  They are just nice to work with and hold.


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## amandap (15 September 2013)

cptrayes said:



			This.

I would be ashamed of myself if I routinely had to use a 12 foot rope to lead my horses.

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Lol! I've only got one short rope. Am I ashamed... nah! 

Having said that I rarely even tie up my horses or use head collars these days but they are at home. No dragons breathing fire.


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## hayinamanger (15 September 2013)

I have a Richard Maxwell rope halter, it's the same design as a cow halter, but made from thinner cord. I use it occasionally on any horse that may be having temporary lapse of manners, it is a brlliant bit of kit, no horse will get away from you using one of those.  I bought one of these sacred 12ft ropes with it, horrid thing, made from some ghastly manmade slippery stuff, gave me rope burns the only time I used it, sold it at an eq table top sale to a girl who looked like all her Christmases had come at once.


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## Auslander (15 September 2013)

A 12ft long rope would annoy me. I've got one extra long leadrope, which irritates me intensely. I can't chuck it over the horses neck while I'm doing other stuff, because it trails on the ground. I can't tie up without the end dangling on the ground, and I have to wrap it round the gate post twice so that the end doesn't end up on the floor. MOST annoyingly, the one time I needed a longer rope (because new horse bogged off in hand), it was on the wrong horse!


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## Pearlsasinger (15 September 2013)

hayinamanger said:



			I have a Richard Maxwell rope halter, it's the same design as a cow halter, but made from thinner cord. I use it occasionally on any horse that may be having temporary lapse of manners, it is a brlliant bit of kit, no horse will get away from you using one of those.
		
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Now I prefer the thicker, softer rope  but I've just got one that's made of webbing across the nose and poll, wouldn't be a lot of good for teaching manners to something stroppy, I don't think, Draft horse looks lovely in it though.  It reminds me of the one we used to use with our first horse, so a nice warm fuzzy feeling.


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## Patterdale (15 September 2013)

Pale Rider said:



			Just heard about someone who was trying to lead a horse using a bridle because it was difficult and they wanted more 'control'. Anyway, they've had an accident and been klonked on the shoulder. It's a myth that a bit and bridle give you control. You need a rope headcollar, a 12 foot line and respect from the horse. If you don't have all three, leave well alone.
		
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Lol. Perhaps her horse was too big for her? *snort*



Auslander said:



			I have a normal headcollar, a standard length leadrope, and respect from my horse - so I guess that's even better?
		
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No, not if it didnt cost half a months wages and has a genuine Parelli label....




doriangrey said:



			Is it a him?  

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Yes. 

PR must be bored lately as there are a few of these judgey/controversial threads lately


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## Kallibear (15 September 2013)

Auslander said:



			A 12ft long rope would annoy me. I've got one extra long leadrope, which irritates me intensely. I can't chuck it over the horses neck while I'm doing other stuff, because it trails on the ground. I can't tie up without the end dangling on the ground, and I have to wrap it round the gate post twice so that the end doesn't end up on the floor. MOST annoyingly, the one time I needed a longer rope (because new horse bogged off in hand), it was on the wrong horse!
		
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That's how I feel about stupid short ropes (for different reasons obviously). It's what you're used to and like. A 12ft rope isn't going to magically make you a competent horseman (despite advertising by PP!)

They are useful though (esp in the case of naughty ponies bogging off!) and a useful piece of kit once you're used to working with them. It's perfectly possible to control a horse with a standard length rope but the extra length can come in very useful at times, esp if you're used to working with them.


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## amandap (15 September 2013)

snooples said:



			Whats the point of a 12 foot rope, why is it better than a normal rope...
		
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It's not a case of 'better' or even ego! It's a case of safety imo, if you have a horse that isn't trained to lead or bounces around it gives you more leverage and space to keep out of the way if required. Obviously, leading an untrained or frisky horse, gloves are a good idea. I'm sure many much more experienced than me disagree of course. lol

With trained horses it's surely a matter of personal preference.


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## Tinypony (15 September 2013)

PR must be in a happy winding people up mood today.  I guess the weather is lousy so he's a bit bored.  
Surely everyone knows that it isn't length that matters, but what you do with it?
I'm not ashamed to say that there's a long "12ft" rope hanging off all my rope halters, just because it's there doesn't mean I have to use the length all the time. I'm lucky because I have loads of halters and nice soft ropes, my friends give them to me.  So every halter has an attached long rope.  I am fussy, no clips, just a neat flat loop to feed through the halter to attach them.  I don't have any problem with dangly bits because I've handled these ropes for so long I don't get in a muddle with them.  When I tie I I swiftly do that pretty little thing with the end where it is all looped up and neat.  Same when I attach it to my saddle if I decide to keep the halter on under a bridle when riding (it's handy to have a halter there if I need to get off).  If I want to chuck the rope on my horse's neck I do so, just have the rope doubled.  Best of all, if I'm bimbling along with my horse on my rope, and decide to ride, I just tie it up and hey presto - reins!
When I take Old Boy out for his walkies in hand a long rope is particularly useful, because it means that when the path we are on gets unexpectedly narrow I can send him ahead and "lead" him from behind.


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## Auslander (15 September 2013)

I'm not talking about not being able to handle a piece of rope because I'm not used to the length! I've managed to lunge, double lunge, and long rein perfectly competently for many years. I am talking about the practicalities of chucking a lead rope over a horses neck while you pick its feet out/get something out of the tack room/generally fiddle around, and of tying a horse up at a safe length without festoons of rope on the floor.


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## Persephone (15 September 2013)

I love 12' lines, I don't actually use anything else. 

When you have a 17hh occasionally rearing youngster it's so nice to be able to step back out of immediate reach, yet the second those feet touch ground again I'm there. Also should we need to have an unexpected discussion (ie. circle her or back her up) the option is there.

It feels really odd to me now, when I bring someone else's horse to be using a little short rope..


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## Auslander (15 September 2013)

amandap said:



			It's not a case of 'better' or even ego! It's a case of safety imo, if you have a horse that isn't trained to lead or bounces around it gives you more leverage and space to keep out of the way if required. Obviously, leading an untrained or frisky horse, gloves are a good idea. I'm sure many much more experienced than me disagree of course. lol
		
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It's actually safer to be as close to the horse as possible if its titting around. I don't like the idea of being far enough away to take a kick in the head! IMHO, it's all a matter of reading the horse - its very unusual not to be able to tell that a horse is about to blow, and to then take steps to prevent it.


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## Kallibear (15 September 2013)

Auslander said:



			I'm not talking about not being able to handle a piece of rope because I'm not used to the length! I've managed to lunge, double lunge, and long rein perfectly competently for many years. I am talking about the practicalities of chucking a lead rope over a horses neck while you pick its feet out/get something out of the tack room/generally fiddle around, and of tying a horse up at a safe length without festoons of rope on the floor.
		
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That's cos you're not used to working with a long rope?! have none of the above issues with it because I'm used to it. I suppose it's like those who lead constantly with a lunge rope:  they're used to it and don't find it a faff but I find them a right royal pain.


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## ester (15 September 2013)

It's amazing any of us ever survive..


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## Kallibear (15 September 2013)

Auslander said:



			It's actually safer to be as close to the horse as possible if its titting around. I don't like the idea of being far enough away to take a kick in the head! IMHO, it's all a matter of reading the horse - its very unusual not to be able to tell that a horse is about to blow, and to then take steps to prevent it.
		
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Not always it isn't!  If you've got a rearer then 'as close as possible' is a really bad idea!  The length of the rope isn't going to affect your capability to read and deal with an issue but it can affect the method you'd use. I'm used to working with a long rope and how I'd deal with a situation can be effected by the length of rope I'm holding.


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## Auslander (15 September 2013)

Kallibear said:



			That's cos you're not used to working with a long rope?! have none of the above issues with it because I'm used to it. I suppose it's like those who lead constantly with a lunge rope:  they're used to it and don't find it a faff but I find them a right royal pain.
		
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As previously stated, I don't have a problem handling long lines. I just cant see that the benefits of a 12ft rope outweigh the need to faff around with it to hang it up neatly, and to tie a horse up safely with one. Each to his ow, but I just don't get whats so great about them


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## Auslander (15 September 2013)

Kallibear said:



			Not always it isn't!  If you've got a rearer then 'as close as possible' is a really bad idea!  The length of the rope isn't going to affect your capability to read and deal with an issue but it can affect the method you'd use. I'm used to working with a long rope and how I'd deal with a situation can be effected by the length of rope I'm holding.
		
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I beg to differ - back in the dim and distant past, I did a lot of sales prep of yearling TB colts, and of warmbloods for the continental sales. I feel most comfortable right behind the shoulder, close to the horse. The people who got landed on were generally those jumped out of the way, whereas those who stayed close, and pulled the little stinkers head round, were the ones who kept their feet close to the ground and got them going forwards again quickly


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## Kallibear (15 September 2013)

Auslander said:



			As previously stated, I don't have a problem handling long lines. I just cant see that the benefits of a 12ft rope outweigh the need to faff around with it to hang it up neatly, and to tie a horse up safely with one. Each to his ow, but I just don't get whats so great about them
		
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If you're working with well behaved well trained horses and you're just leading to/ from the stable/field, tying up etc then there's absolutely no benefit in a longer rope. But they're very useful when dealing with a difficult, fresh or excitable horse (for the reasons I stated initially) and for that I'd always chose one over a standard length rope or a  bridle.


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## Tinypony (15 September 2013)

I honestly can't see what the fuss is about on this thread.
Being safe hasn't got much to do with what tools you use, but everything to do with knowing how to use them correctly.  If you think longer ropes are the work of the devil that's fine just get on with life.
On the other hand, those who use longer ropes daily, understand how to use them and be safe with them are happy - then what's the problem?  
I don't see much of people like Buck Brannaman, Steve Halfpenny, Ray Hunt etc etc getting (or having got in Ray Hunt's case) trampled, kicked in the head etc.  And yet they never used short ropes with horses.
If you're safe and your horse is too that is what matters. Not the flaming length of your "tool".  
(Where's that wink smiley when I need it?).
p.s.  I was lying when I said I hang mine up neatly.  I only do that when I'm having a chilled out day.  Normally I throw them in a bundle on top of a feed bin.


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## Kallibear (15 September 2013)

Auslander said:



			I beg to differ - back in the dim and distant past, I did a lot of sales prep of yearling TB colts, and of warmbloods for the continental sales. I feel most comfortable right behind the shoulder, close to the horse. The people who got landed on were generally those jumped out of the way, whereas those who stayed close, and pulled the little stinkers head round, were the ones who kept their feet close to the ground and got them going forwards again quickly
		
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From the experience of rearers they usually go up and flip the head up to release pressure, then often start to back up. It's too easy to get the end of a short rope snatched out our hands (esp if you're not paying attention) so I like a longer rope for that.


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## DragonSlayer (15 September 2013)

I just chase my horses the way I want them to go with a cattle-prod, seems to work....


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## Auslander (15 September 2013)

Kallibear said:



			If you're working with well behaved well trained horses and you're just leading to/ from the stable/field, tying up etc then there's absolutely no benefit in a longer rope. But they're very useful when dealing with a difficult, fresh or excitable horse (for the reasons I stated initially) and for that I'd always chose one over a standard length rope or a  bridle.
		
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Ok. That's kind of where I was coming from. I manage pretty well with a normal length rope, even when they're being idiots, because I prefer to be close, with an elbow in the shoulder if necessary.

If everyone did things the same, there'd be no discussion though. Different strokes for different folks eh!


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## lastchancer (15 September 2013)

If it's a normal well behaved horse then just a headcollar or bridle should be fine. If its a scatty youngster then yes a long piece of rope makes it easier to keep hold without getting kicked in the head if it rears. I don't meticulously measure out 12' of rope though, or keep an expensive 12' Line and Carrot stick stashed away for such occasions, I'm not that anal... A long bit of blue rope is fine.

And those awful string halters are really severe if the're not used sympathetically, and can do a lot of damage to the nerves horses in the poll and neck . I'd only use a pressure halter in specific training sessions to teach it to lead properly, that's why my horses can be led safely in a headcollar...


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## amandap (15 September 2013)

Tinypony said:



			If you're safe and your horse is too that is what matters. Not the flaming length of your "tool".
		
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Ha ha! rofl!


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## Cortez (15 September 2013)

....and those type of 12ft ropes give you an absolutely fabulous rope burn too if you've forgotten to wear your gloves.


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## babymare (15 September 2013)

Good post amandap. lol good post


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## Kallibear (15 September 2013)

Cortez said:



			....and those type of 12ft ropes give you an absolutely fabulous rope burn too if you've forgotten to wear your gloves.
		
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Worst rope burn I ever had was a short twisted cotton  leadrope (nasty horrible things)! Horse reared and I had to grip tightly not to loose it.  With a long rope I can apply ABS


Of course I ALWAYS wear gloves as per BHS instructions  And a hat.......


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## Auslander (15 September 2013)

Well - I figure we've worked it out. Those who are used to using long ropes may run into trouble with short ones because they aren't used to using them, and those who are used to using short ropes may run into trouble using long ones because they're not used to using them. 

PR just thought it would be a great opportunity to have a dig at those who don't absolutely follow his path of righteousness. In reality, the poor person would probably have got mashed whether she was using a bridle, a rope headcollar, a 24'00000 ft line, or a dog lead. She didn't necessarily get hurt because of what she was or wasn't using. They're horses, and sometimes they hurt you.

Lets all have a nice cup of tea eh?


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## nikicb (15 September 2013)

Auslander said:



			A 12ft long rope would annoy me. I've got one extra long leadrope, which irritates me intensely. I can't chuck it over the horses neck while I'm doing other stuff, because it trails on the ground. I can't tie up without the end dangling on the ground, and I have to wrap it round the gate post twice so that the end doesn't end up on the floor. MOST annoyingly, the one time I needed a longer rope (because new horse bogged off in hand), it was on the wrong horse!
		
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You bought that when you were with me.  I have one for Cam but only because where we were hacking at the time we had to load/unload near a road and I wanted the extra length just in case he spooked at something.  You know what a fire breathing dragon he is.    I brought my three in three different ways tonight.  One had a rope around his neck, one had a headcollar and leadrope and one I couldn't even get near, so he was herded in.  Yes, that devil Welsh Sec A.    But I can lead mine around by fly masks/rugs as long as grass is not more interesting.


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## Kallibear (15 September 2013)

Auslander said:



			Well - I figure we've worked it out. Those who are used to using long ropes may run into trouble with short ones because they aren't used to using them, and those who are used to using short ropes may run into trouble using long ones because they're not used to using them.  

PR just thought it would be a great opportunity to have a dig at those who don't absolutely follow his path of righteousness. In reality, the poor person would probably have got mashed whether she was using a bridle, a rope headcollar, a 24'00000 ft line, or a dog lead. She didn't necessarily get hurt because of what she was or wasn't using. They're horses, and sometimes they hurt you.

Lets all have a nice cup of tea eh?
		
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LOL.   That's virtually unheard off. 'Of' possibly? We'll need to find something else to argue. So............ tea's better than coffee is it?!?! How dare you!


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## Auslander (15 September 2013)

Kallibear said:



			LOL.   That's virtually unheard off. 'Of' possibly? We'll need to find something else to argue. So............ tea's better than coffee is it?!?! How dare you!
		
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Actually - I'm a coffee drinker!


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## Kallibear (15 September 2013)

Oh, right.*deflates*. 

Eh, barefoot?


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## Fii (15 September 2013)

My friends daughter used to lead her mare in without a headcollar, as long as she pretended to put an invisible headcollar on, the mare would walk  with her quite happily!


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## Auslander (15 September 2013)

Kallibear said:



			Oh, right.*deflates*. 

Eh, barefoot?
		
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I try very hard not to get involved with barefoot arguments! I did try very hard to have Alf unshod, but he likes his heel support too much!


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## Shantara (15 September 2013)

Fii said:



			My friends daughter used to lead her mare in without a headcollar, as long as she pretended to put an invisible headcollar on, the mare would walk  with her quite happily! 

Click to expand...

Haha! Cookie is a bit like this. If you clip a lead rope on, he'll stand there, defeated. You don't have to tie him up to keep him still!


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## Kenzo (15 September 2013)

ester said:



			It's amazing any of us ever survive..
		
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lol.... just lol!


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## Fii (15 September 2013)

Actually i need a 12 foot rope for my mare when loading her, i could tie it to a ratchet at the front of the box and just wind her in!!


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## budley95 (15 September 2013)

So someone unfortunately had an accident and its because they weren't using the right equipment? Sorry but horses have their own minds. Mine gets led in by rugs, fly masks, pashmina round his neck, normal headcollar and leadrope or he'll just follow me. And if we're doing something particularly exciting and he gets strong an elbow in his neck restores his manners. Oh and a brilliant natural horsemanship trainer I know had a 12 foot rope pulled through his hands and horse turned round and double barreled him smashing his collar bone. This was after he'd been doing groundwork and was leading a whole 20m to the stable. If you're bored pr, go do some groundwork with your pony. It's a bit boring all these people don't know what they're doing threads...


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## Horseback Rider (15 September 2013)

Sparklepony said:



			*whispers* mine wear chifneys when they are being plebs! 
They are ex racers they understand chifney means don't mess about! 

Though generally they get chucked out in head collars with ropes or bridle undone if just been ridden!
		
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Agree with this my ex racer is a **** if he's not the first one in I would rather use a chiffney than let his front hoofs hover above my head and before you all start I do try with him but this was a problem he and many ex racers have before we get them !


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## AdorableAlice (15 September 2013)

Nothing wrong with a belt round it's neck when you trudge over the field only to find you failed to leave the halter on the gate in the morning. Just keep one hand on your trousers.


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## DragonSlayer (15 September 2013)

..so no-one else chases their horses the direction they want to go with cattle-prods then??

...I could market this idea and be RICH!!!


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## twiggy2 (15 September 2013)

...


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## tallyho! (15 September 2013)

Well I have just invented the best horsemanship gadget like.. EVERRRR!!?

It is called... Wait for it.... The tallyholter! 

Yup.

Easy to use, takes 4D batteries, or you can hook it up to the mains if you have enough cable. Basically it works just like a "be nice" halter except it ain't very nice at all. No. It gives your swine.. Ahem, sorry... Equine, a great big feckin shock to the noggin. 

Feckin marvellous. I've never loaded a horse so quick. In fact, just to prove it worked I got six horses in a 510. 

I reckon if they were shod, I'd ave got eight in.

Patent pending. Discount to HHOers...

Any takers?


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## slumdog (15 September 2013)

tallyho! said:



			Well I have just invented the best horsemanship gadget like.. EVERRRR!!?

It is called... Wait for it.... The tallyholter! 

Yup.

Easy to use, takes 4D batteries, or you can hook it up to the mains if you have enough cable. Basically it works just like a "be nice" halter except it ain't very nice at all. No. It gives your swine.. Ahem, sorry... Equine, a great big feckin shock to the noggin. 

Feckin marvellous. I've never loaded a horse so quick. In fact, just to prove it worked I got six horses in a 510. 

I reckon if they were shod, I'd ave got eight in.

Patent pending. Discount to HHOers...

Any takers?
		
Click to expand...

Does it work on kids??


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## ester (15 September 2013)

I can't be doing with this having to have the right type of 12 ft rope , rope burn pah! A mere flesh wound (insert heavy monty pythonness here) I actually take my life into my hands every time I handle the beast . Maybe aka like Fii I could winch a 12ft rope round the stable door to get him up in the mornings?

hmph pic wont work bear with


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## DIESELSUPERSTAR (15 September 2013)

As always with horses its down to what the human is comfortable with and what the horse responds to. Have never used any method other than a normal rope and collar but then as soon as they step out of line they are disciplined and taught to respect my space. I have never had anything over 14'2 so I have no idea what would work differently to a bigger horse on a day to day basis. I lead my 3 in together, and could happily put the rope round there neck and send them.up to their stables on their own. 

Each horse is different and has different life experiences. Find a way that works for your partnership, not what someone tells you will work!!


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## DabDab (15 September 2013)

I know people who seem to get injured leading horses on almost a weekly basis. There is absolutely no explanation to be found in the type of equipment they use for why they so often get themselves into trouble - you have to see them in action to understand the why. 

There are very few times I have been hurt when leading a horse (I can count on my fingers the amount of times I have been trodden on, have never been kicked or bitten, but I have once been struck by a front hoof during a rear that was my own fault). The reason is that I am very good at preempting what a horse is about to do and either dealing with the behaviour before it escalates or getting myself out of the way. I prefer to keep bridles for ridden work, I'm not keen on using rope halters, I prefer using a longer rope but also use a shorter one, I wear gloves if it's cold and never wear a hat....is there a school of horsemanship I can sign up too?


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## Fii (15 September 2013)

tallyho! said:



			Well I have just invented the best horsemanship gadget like.. EVERRRR!!?

It is called... Wait for it.... The tallyholter! 

Yup.

Easy to use, takes 4D batteries, or you can hook it up to the mains if you have enough cable. Basically it works just like a "be nice" halter except it ain't very nice at all. No. It gives your swine.. Ahem, sorry... Equine, a great big feckin shock to the noggin. 

Feckin marvellous. I've never loaded a horse so quick. In fact, just to prove it worked I got six horses in a 510. 

I reckon if they were shod, I'd ave got eight in.

Patent pending. Discount to HHOers...

Any takers?
		
Click to expand...


That a good idea, for all the endless backing up of horses that wont load !! Or even to drive them backwards into the box!!   i still like my winch/ratchet idea best though, along with DS's cattle prod!


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## tallyho! (15 September 2013)

slumdog said:



			Does it work on kids??
		
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Like a dream luv. How much sleep do you need? One for all night and two for all feckin week


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## Auslander (15 September 2013)

DabDab said:



			I know people who seem to get injured leading horses on almost a weekly basis. There is absolutely no explanation to be found in the type of equipment they use for why they so often get themselves into trouble - you have to see them in action to understand the why. 

There are very few times I have been hurt when leading a horse (I can count on my fingers the amount of times I have been trodden on, have never been kicked or bitten, but I have once been struck by a front hoof during a rear that was my own fault). The reason is that I am very good at preempting what a horse is about to do and either dealing with the behaviour before it escalates or getting myself out of the way. I prefer to keep bridles for ridden work, I'm not keen on using rope halters, I prefer using a longer rope but also use a shorter one, I wear gloves if it's cold and never wear a hat....is there a school of horsemanship I can sign up too? 

Click to expand...

Dunno - but if you find one, can you let me know!


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## tallyho! (15 September 2013)

Fii said:



			That a good idea, for all the endless backing up of horses that wont load !! Or even to drive them backwards into the box!!   i still like my winch/ratchet idea best though, along with DS's cattle prod! 

Click to expand...

It was either my tallyholter, or, dress up like a carrot. Since carrot costume requires me to remortgage my caravan, zapping up my halter was significantly cheaper...


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## Mariposa (15 September 2013)

Just to add my two cents...I think you should put your horse in a bridle if it makes you feel more in control...each to their own.

And in fact at  Ascot sales ( and I believe at other TB sales too?)  there is a rule which states "All horses must be presented at all times in either a bridle or chifney and not on any account on a head collar' .


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## tallyho! (15 September 2013)

I've heard people can talk to horses... Why can't we all just learn 'Orse and just tell 'em what we want them to do????


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## Shantara (15 September 2013)

Do any of us have any REAL control though?


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## *sprinkles* (15 September 2013)

Pale Rider said:



			Just heard about someone who was trying to lead a horse using a bridle because it was difficult and they wanted more 'control'. Anyway, they've had an accident and been klonked on the shoulder. It's a myth that a bit and bridle give you control. You need a rope headcollar, a 12 foot line and respect from the horse. If you don't have all three, leave well alone.
		
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Every horse and handler are different. What works for one may not work for another, part of what makes them such interesting animals. You can't just slap a "one size fits all" attitude to training and handling. And if a bridle gives the handler more confidence and the ability to take control of the situation, even just mentally then I would advise them to continue using the bridle. Sometimes an attitude change is all that's needed, and sometimes "props" are required to lend the confidence to do this.


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## Amymay (15 September 2013)

Auslander said:



			I beg to differ - back in the dim and distant past, I did a lot of sales prep of yearling TB colts, and of warmbloods for the continental sales. I feel most comfortable right behind the shoulder, close to the horse. The people who got landed on were generally those jumped out of the way, whereas those who stayed close, and pulled the little stinkers head round, were the ones who kept their feet close to the ground and got them going forwards again quickly
		
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This every day. I've always been taught closer is safer, and in the situation of unpredictable youngsters it most definately is!


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## Tinypony (15 September 2013)

amandap said:



			Ha ha! rofl!
		
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You missed "Surely everyone knows that it isn't length that matters, but what you do with it?"

Anyway, I've had a nice cup of tea, and a bar of chocolate and I'm enjoying reading on... and on... and on...


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## moosea (15 September 2013)

Isn't leading from a chunk of mane acceptable then?


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## Tinypony (15 September 2013)

amymay said:



			This every day. I've always been taught closer is safer, and in the situation of unpredictable youngsters it most definately is!
		
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Good point Amymay.  That is what you personally have always been taught.

If they watch video of Buck Brannaman, Ray Hunt, Martin Black, etc etc... work with a lively youngster (with their longer tool) maybe people will appreciate that we aren't always taught the ONLY way to be safe around horses.  Just because our experience is limited to knowing how to do things one way, that doesn't mean that we know everything does it?  Or are people's experiences really so limited that they think what they think they know is the full picture?


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## Tinypony (15 September 2013)

p.s.  Leading with anything is acceptable, chunks of mane, anything you like.  However PR's post said "Just heard about someone who was trying to lead a horse using a bridle because it was difficult and they wanted more 'control'."
I guess nobody is going to suggest that leading by a chunk of mane will give more control than a bridle.


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## moosea (15 September 2013)

Try two chunks of mane and a hand on the rug straps!


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## khalswitz (15 September 2013)

I would have more control of my dog on a shorter lead - I've always believed the same of horses. I'd be even less likely to use a long rope on a difficult to handle horse... I don't need te extra length to stop them pulling free, as I've learnt not to let go. On a racing yard I worked at before doing a stint in aus, where we handled the yearling and two year old tbs, it was simple - they get loose of you, you bought ALL the beers. Not being a very well paying job this meant you quickly learnt how to hold on no matter what. I am very good at getting out of the way of feet. Like I said previously, if I have a really tricky one, I used a stallion chain, but I wouldn't give them any extra rope - just gives them more room to pick up speed before the contact hits...


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## amandap (15 September 2013)

Tinypony said:



			You missed "Surely everyone knows that it isn't length that matters, but what you do with it?"
		
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Splurts whisky laden tea all over!


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## Pearlsasinger (15 September 2013)

Auslander said:



			I manage pretty well with a normal length rope, even when they're being idiots, because I prefer to be close, with an elbow in the shoulder if necessary.
		
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My preferred method, by far.  But always good to hear the experiences of others.

Don't know whether I should admit to just opening the gate and letting them come in on their own, these days.


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## Enfys (15 September 2013)

cptrayes said:



			This.

I would be ashamed of myself if I routinely had to use a 12 foot rope to lead my horses.
		
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I find myself using them quite a lot, because they are already attached to halters, I leave them rolled up   

I think they are on the halters because that is what looked prettiest at the tack store, I don't ask owners why they choose specific leadlines. 
I hate them, they have those godawful bullclips on them.


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## amandap (15 September 2013)

Enfys said:



			I hate them, they have those godawful bullclips on them.
		
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I lied as well! I have 2 short ropes, one has a bull clip! I don't use it, it's a real pain and so heavy.

ps. Actually, I suppose it's not a bull clip it's a bit like this with a slide mechanism.
http://www.saddlerywarehouse.co.nz/...22/ID=23361/SID=303177815/productdetails.html


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## blitznbobs (15 September 2013)

slumdog said:



			I use a head collar, clip rope, clip rope round their neck, item of clothing round their neck, just their rug, but sometimes they just follow me with nothing at all. I detest Parelli and have never done NH in my life, we just like and respect each other. Although I never knew it was a competition!
		
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This^^^^


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## Auslander (15 September 2013)

Pearlsasinger said:



			Don't know whether I should admit to just opening the gate and letting them come in on their own, these days.
		
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I do that too!


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## Pearlsasinger (15 September 2013)

Auslander said:



			I do that too!
		
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We really should think of a name for our school of horsemanship - you never know we might be able to make our fortunes with a bit of good marketting!


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## Mince Pie (15 September 2013)

Fii said:



			Actually i need a 12 foot rope for my mare when loading her, i could tie it to a ratchet at the front of the box and just wind her in!!  

Click to expand...

You say that but I know someone who did just that with a very obstinate haflinger! Kelly Marks didn't get this horse loading properly but outsmart him and he just gave up... he now loads beautifully in a more conventional way 


WRT to the long/short rope in pratting around youngsters, I suppose the height of the handler comes into play? A tall handler with a 17hh horse is less likely to be hoisted into the air when it goes up (like I did!), than a shorter person when both using a short rope.


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## DabDab (15 September 2013)

Pearlsasinger said:



			We really should think of a name for our school of horsemanship - you never know we might be able to make our fortunes with a bit of good marketting!
		
Click to expand...

I've been trying to think of one, the problem is that reality and marketing aren't always all that compatible  What ever we call it we should definitely have private members' clubs and a secret handshake though


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## Enfys (16 September 2013)

amandap said:



			I lied as well! I have 2 short ropes, one has a bull clip! I don't use it, it's a real pain and so heavy.

ps. Actually, I suppose it's not a bull clip it's a bit like this with a slide mechanism.
http://www.saddlerywarehouse.co.nz/...22/ID=23361/SID=303177815/productdetails.html

Click to expand...

  Yep. So called quick release/panic clips, lethal things. I have them on trailer ties, if they are clipped to ring end on trailer, stable etc and you manage to undo them in an emergency the bloody things are guaranteed to hit either you, or the horse in the eye. If they are on the halter end when a horse is having a frothy how the hell are you meant to get close enough to undo the things?  I use them on zip lines for tethering goats, and ponies, excellent for that job  

These are what I think of as bull clips :



http://yknotropetack.com/prodimages/2012/Hardware/Trigger bull snaps.jpg


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## Enfys (16 September 2013)

Bull clip. I need two hands to open the silly things


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## Tinypony (16 September 2013)

At the risk of upsetting people, how does a thread that started out talking about how to get more control of a horse end up with people boasting about how they can lead their horses round by the rug, mane, left hind leg etc?  I'm sure a lot of people can do all sorts of things at home in their field and yard.  Good for them.  
This tends to happen here a lot.  Someone starts a discussion about an issue, then people chip in with how wonderful they and their horses are, which while it's a little bit interesting maybe (or not), doesn't prove anything or contribute to the original question.
(I may be grumpy because I've been sat here working since 6 am, if so ignore me!).
p.s.  Come back PR and look at what you've done, as if you didn't know...


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## Patterdale (16 September 2013)

My horse levitates in to avoid churning the field, then cooks me a full English.

I have to help him with breaking the eggs but other than that he's on his own.


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## Auslander (16 September 2013)

Pearlsasinger said:



			We really should think of a name for our school of horsemanship - you never know we might be able to make our fortunes with a bit of good marketting!
		
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It just so happens that I work in marketing, when I'm not scraping an existence as a jobbing journo!


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## Auslander (16 September 2013)

Patterdale said:



			My horse levitates in to avoid churning the field, then cooks me a full English.

I have to help him with breaking the eggs but other than that he's on his own.
		
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Mine lives in my shed, and wakes me up every morning with a coffee, and a full english - in bed! Beat that!


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## Goldenstar (16 September 2013)

Patterdale said:



			My horse levitates in to avoid churning the field, then cooks me a full English.

I have to help him with breaking the eggs but other than that he's on his own.
		
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If he can do the ironing as well I will buy him.
I won't try him properly or have him vetted then in a fortnight I will post complaining that I am gaining wieght ( all those full English ) and I have been misold a dangerous horse.


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## redmone (16 September 2013)

Patterdale said:



			My horse levitates in to avoid churning the field, then cooks me a full English.

I have to help him with breaking the eggs but other than that he's on his own.
		
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^^^^^ like ^^^^^

I'm keeping quiet as Dolly (all 12.2hh of her) regularly takes me grass skiing!!!

;-)


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## Auslander (16 September 2013)

Tinypony said:



			Someone starts a discussion about an issue, then people chip in with how wonderful they and their horses are, which while it's a little bit interesting maybe (or not), doesn't prove anything or contribute to the original question.
		
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It makes em happy. Always astounds me that there are so many perfect horses on here, but I rarely see them in real life. Apart from mine - obviously!


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## DragonSlayer (16 September 2013)

Tinypony said:



			At the risk of upsetting people, how does a thread that started out talking about how to get more control of a horse end up with people boasting about how they can lead their horses round by the rug, mane, left hind leg etc?  I'm sure a lot of people can do all sorts of things at home in their field and yard.  Good for them.  
This tends to happen here a lot.  Someone starts a discussion about an issue, then people chip in with how wonderful they and their horses are, which while it's a little bit interesting maybe (or not), doesn't prove anything or contribute to the original question.
(I may be grumpy because I've been sat here working since 6 am, if so ignore me!).
p.s.  Come back PR and look at what you've done, as if you didn't know...
		
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Things tend to drop into a 'jokey' mode I believe..because some people WILL NOT accept another point of view OR they see the convo developing into a full-scale war...

...AND it's Sunday evening, I guess the wine is out for some!

I'm one of those responsible I'm afraid! Once serious stuff is out the way, I'll throw in a joke or two! There are those who tend to ignore the jokes and find what they need...


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## Shantara (16 September 2013)

Tinypony said:



			At the risk of upsetting people, how does a thread that started out talking about how to get more control of a horse end up with people boasting about how they can lead their horses round by the rug, mane, left hind leg etc?  I'm sure a lot of people can do all sorts of things at home in their field and yard.  Good for them.  
This tends to happen here a lot.  Someone starts a discussion about an issue, then people chip in with how wonderful they and their horses are, which while it's a little bit interesting maybe (or not), doesn't prove anything or contribute to the original question.
(I may be grumpy because I've been sat here working since 6 am, if so ignore me!).
p.s.  Come back PR and look at what you've done, as if you didn't know...
		
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You do have a good point! Most people here will know that Ned is really nothing near perfect lol! However, I'm finally proud of his behaviour! I still can't get on the bloomin' thing though! Something I didn't get around to teaching him before he went lame.


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## Dry Rot (16 September 2013)

...............I think I just invented the "medium length lead rope"!


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## sarahann1 (16 September 2013)

All that's missing from this thread is a bit on cobs and it'll be perfect, someone call the green scaley one 

I'm constantly amazed at how seriously people take life with horses when it's about an issue that's got bum all to to with welfare etc. 

PEOPLE OF HHO, GET ON AND ENJOY YOUR HORSES


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## ester (16 September 2013)

Auslander said:



			Mine lives in my shed, and wakes me up every morning with a coffee, and a full english - in bed! Beat that!
		
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hmph and I can't even get mine out of his pit


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## Goldenstar (16 September 2013)

ester said:



			hmph and I can't even get mine out of his pit 

Click to expand...

Yup I got it all wrong too mine expect me to take them their muesli in bed .


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## Tinypony (16 September 2013)

sarahann1 said:



			All that's missing from this thread is a bit on cobs and it'll be perfect, someone call the green scaley one 

I'm constantly amazed at how seriously people take life with horses when it's about an issue that's got bum all to to with welfare etc. 

PEOPLE OF HHO, GET ON AND ENJOY YOUR HORSES 

Click to expand...

I'm trying!  If I can get this work done by 10 I might even get a 15 minute ride in my field this am.
Coffee break over, back to it...   (sound of boots pattering off into the distance...).


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## tallyho! (16 September 2013)

My horse can mow the lawn.


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## Fellewell (16 September 2013)

Was the bridle properly fitted? Perhaps she needed to shorten the cheek pieces.


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## amandap (16 September 2013)

Enfys said:









Bull clip. I need two hands to open the silly things 

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Do you have to pull the clip out rather than push in? I had a similar one but gave it and attached rope away as that was a pain, as you say, two hands required. It was also very heavy.

I really dislike the slidey one, it certainly isn't quick release. 

I have a medium length rope. Lol It's about 8 ft, great for little-uns. lol

I do think much is what you are used to, like TP I also find the long ones useful in tight spaces. I learned a long time ago with one mare that being close to an agitated horse didn't cut it as she would push/knock me with her shoulder. No way was it worth getting into a pushing/pulling match with her, I would have been splatted.


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## Skib (16 September 2013)

But there are some of us on H&H who  began riding late in life and paid for lessons in how to lead? 

Only free from ideology. I was taught to lead according to the situation. 

First lesson was BHS Stage 1 stable managment, trotting up for vet. Normal webbing collar, short rope. Post Kelly Marks (How to Behave) I knew this mare would follow my actions but was terrified. I might stumble. I was too old to run. 
Second school - Leading on the road, with bridle and reins - you need a schooling whip in hand in case you need to keep horse's rear end from sliding sideways into traffic. 
With a 12 ft rope and rope head collar, one can lead out to grass (graze in hand) more easily and  dont need a whip because you use the end of the 12 ft rope to control the quarters instead. 12 ft allows horse to graze for an hour and you to do crossword.
And yes can now can claim brownie points for teaching horses to lead in a rope head collar with a 12 ft rope. So I arranged for my OH to be taught to do that too. 
Surprise - Instead he was taught using bit and bridle and whip - He never goes near a horse unless he is going to ride.

PS The very frightening BHS lesson in trotting up  came in useful. Years later, I was did it with startling efficiency for someone in an emergency. Horse was in bridle. The fact that one can use and like a 12 ft rope doesnt mean you use it every time.


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## GeorgeyGal (16 September 2013)

I think there's definitely a market for soft 8-10ft ropes, I could only find one on eBay. 

Through trial and error close was best for my then explosive filly. One trainer told me to give her rope and let her run round me, never again, she broncked and double barrelled like crazy! Not to say doesn't work for some though but not for us.


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## Double_choc_lab (16 September 2013)

Better change the trot ups at our 4* events then as they all use bridles.  How could WFP et al all be so silly as to not use 12 ft ropes!!!!!  And lets put all the racehorses in the paddocks on them at the same time - interesting.  I'm mid 50s never used a halter or 12 ft rope and I've still got all my toes thank you.


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## PolarSkye (16 September 2013)

This thread has made me chuckle . . . horses for courses and all that .  I must admit I have used pretty much every and all permutation described here - short rope led from horses' shoulder, bridle with hat/gloves, long/loose rope and webbing or leather headcollar, rope headcollar, headpiece w/ bit and leadrope attached under the chin, leadrope around the neck, handful of mane/forelock/rug . . . in various circumstances and I still have all my fingers and toes (and have never been clarted in the head by a waving hoof).

At the moment, I use a webbing headcollar with an 8 foot soft leadrope - very handy for getting Kal out of the paddock without actually going in (I routinely bring another livery's horse in and his paddock is farthest away - so I grab Oli from his paddock, put Kal's headcollar on over his gate and persuade him round the (opening inwards) gate while I have Ols in my other hand . . . with a short leadrope that would be next to impossible, but with his nice long ones (he has two) I can keep hold of the end and he has enough rope to back away from and round the end of the gate and out of the paddock - seeeeemples!).

I simply don't understand how or why anyone can say that there is only one way to lead a horse safely - so much depends on the horse/circumstances/handler, surely?

And, no, my horse isn't perfect - far from it - and neither am I, but I do have a modicum of common sense and am, therefore, very able to look at a given situation and react/act accordingly . . . so there .

P


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## Anglebracket (16 September 2013)

tallyho! said:



			My horse can mow the lawn.
		
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So can mine, she is stuck on the "close shave" setting though.


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## Enfys (16 September 2013)

Tinypony said:



			At the risk of upsetting people, how does a thread that started out talking about how to get more control of a horse end up with people boasting about how they can lead their horses round by the rug, mane, left hind leg etc?  I'm sure a lot of people can do all sorts of things at home in their field and yard.  Good for them.  
This tends to happen here a lot.  Someone starts a discussion about an issue, then people chip in with how wonderful they and their horses are, which while it's a little bit interesting maybe (or not), doesn't prove anything or contribute to the original question.
(I may be grumpy because I've been sat here working since 6 am, if so ignore me!).



I believe it is called a conversation, that's what happens. People digress, perfectly normal 

PR is just sitting back on his porch, watching, hound dawg at his feet on one side, spittoon on the other   maybe   

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## YorksG (16 September 2013)

Tinypony said:



			At the risk of upsetting people, how does a thread that started out talking about how to get more control of a horse end up with people boasting about how they can lead their horses round by the rug, mane, left hind leg etc?  I'm sure a lot of people can do all sorts of things at home in their field and yard.  Good for them.  
This tends to happen here a lot.  Someone starts a discussion about an issue, then people chip in with how wonderful they and their horses are, which while it's a little bit interesting maybe (or not), doesn't prove anything or contribute to the original question.
(I may be grumpy because I've been sat here working since 6 am, if so ignore me!).
p.s.  Come back PR and look at what you've done, as if you didn't know...
		
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If the OP had been about that I would have wholeheartedly agreed with you, but it wasn't, it was someone telling everyone else what they must do, or never lead their horse! I rather think the replies which said that others use different methods were somewhat less prescriptive than the pompous "Do it the PP way or don't have horses" of the OP. I have to say the people on here who insist how kind the PP way is, how 'in partnership' they are make me laugh, they wouldn't hit their partner, but they would, presumably, put a gum line on them!


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## Enfys (16 September 2013)

So back to the OP.



Pale Rider said:



			It's a myth that a bit and bridle give you control. You need a rope headcollar, a 12 foot line and respect from the horse. If you don't have all three, leave well alone.
		
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Tosh! Horses for courses and all that. 

and, as for this  "You need a rope headcollar, a 12 foot line and respect from the horse. If you don't have all three, leave well alone." 

What? !

Literally?! 

That is a real chicken and egg statement.


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## whisp&willow (16 September 2013)

wow!   14 pages, impressive start!

Think I've led in most ways possible:  headcollar and leadrope, rope halter, lead rope round neck, leadrope made into halter, bridle, baler twine, rug, forelock, jumper... but never a bra yet.  

Must try harder.


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## Moomin1 (16 September 2013)

lastchancer said:



			Yeah because poncing around with a horse on the end of a 12' line is going to be really safe if you're leading up the road isn't it. What a t***.
		
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Wow, completely uncalled for.

That needs reporting tbh - no need for vile name calling.


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## WelshD (16 September 2013)

I found two lunge reins for £6 in a tack shop the other week (Two Times Tack in Oxon if anyone is nearby) they are the cushioned type ones so nice and soft, I cut them down in to extra long leadropes - very handy


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## lastchancer (16 September 2013)

Moomin1 said:



			Wow, completely uncalled for.

That needs reporting tbh - no need for vile name calling.
		
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Well if people make inflammatory opening posts then of course people are going to bite... That's why he did it. I'm pretty sure PR is quite big enough to look after himself on an internet forum. Besides, considering the way you have insulted and belittled people on many, many other threads I don't think you really have any right to have a go at anyone. Tbh.


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## Honey08 (16 September 2013)

There was no need to swear though - what they said was fine, why make themselves look stupid by swearing on a forum full of kids??

I had a livery that used a 12' rope with her unruly horse.  We regularly would find her hanging off the end of the rope screaming. One day she came back with a broken arm because the horse had spun, bucked and caught her arm, she was lucky it wasn't worse.  I led the horse a few times, after a few stern growls and yanks on the leadrein it was fine in a headcollar and leadrope.  Same livery regularly went grass skiing with our 12h section A (great term Redmone!) despite my 11yr old stepson not having a problem.

Anyway, I digress, you have to find what works safely in the meantime while you work out how to get respect and good behaviour from the horse.  However you do something there is always a risk that something can go wrong - you are never 100% safe or doing things right with horses.

ps.  Am another member of the let them run down the drive to their stables themselves while you lock the gate club.  Works great until you get a clever but greedy equine that runs into the other horse's stables and eats their tea before the other amble in!


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## lastchancer (16 September 2013)

Fair point Honey08 - Muppet would have been more appropriate.


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## lastchancer (16 September 2013)

Dry Rot said:



			...............I think I just invented the "medium length lead rope"!

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You M'dear are a genius


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## Festivepony (16 September 2013)

whisp&willow said:



			wow!   14 pages, impressive start!
		
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Four pages on my screen.  You can change your settings, you know.


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## Pearlsasinger (16 September 2013)

Honey08 said:



			ps.  Am another member of the let them run down the drive to their stables themselves while you lock the gate club.  Works great until you get a clever but greedy equine that runs into the other horse's stables and eats their tea before the other amble in!
		
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I once ended up with a very well-mannered 14.3 cob and a nosy 17hh Clydie in the same stable!  Lesson learned - one at a time, please!


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## Patterdale (16 September 2013)

My horse can do long division in his head.


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## Honey08 (16 September 2013)

Pearlsasinger said:



			I once ended up with a very well-mannered 14.3 cob and a nosy 17hh Clydie in the same stable!  Lesson learned - one at a time, please!
		
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Whispers - have had that seven times last week as they've been on the winter turnout with stable access while we went on holiday as my mare had come in with an allergic reaction to something in the field.  Hubby's 17h had gone into her stable after he had finished his hay every morning, and the lady looking after her had found both horses in her stable (she's 16h too).  Thankfully they get on!  Ended up putting all haynets out on the yard all night.


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## lastchancer (16 September 2013)

Mine can fly a helicopter.


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## fidgeuk (16 September 2013)

Hahahahaha  Mines from the Salisbury Plain area and loves driving tanks!!


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## Ibblebibble (16 September 2013)

Pale Rider said:



			Just heard about someone who was trying to lead a horse using a bridle because it was difficult and they wanted more 'control'. Anyway, they've had an accident and been klonked on the shoulder. It's a myth that a bit and bridle give you control. You need a rope headcollar, a 12 foot line and respect from the horse. If you don't have all three, leave well alone.
		
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surely if you have respect from the horse there is no need for gadgets such as a rope head collar and 12ft line? disappointed in you PR!!


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## Auslander (16 September 2013)

Skib said:



			But there are some of us on H&H who  began riding late in life and paid for lessons in how to lead? 

Only free from ideology. I was taught to lead according to the situation. 

First lesson was BHS Stage 1 stable managment, trotting up for vet. Normal webbing collar, short rope. Post Kelly Marks (How to Behave) I knew this mare would follow my actions but was terrified. I might stumble. I was too old to run. 
Second school - Leading on the road, with bridle and reins - you need a schooling whip in hand in case you need to keep horse's rear end from sliding sideways into traffic. 
With a 12 ft rope and rope head collar, one can lead out to grass (graze in hand) more easily and  dont need a whip because you use the end of the 12 ft rope to control the quarters instead. 12 ft allows horse to graze for an hour and you to do crossword.
And yes can now can claim brownie points for teaching horses to lead in a rope head collar with a 12 ft rope. So I arranged for my OH to be taught to do that too. 
Surprise - Instead he was taught using bit and bridle and whip - He never goes near a horse unless he is going to ride.

PS The very frightening BHS lesson in trotting up  came in useful. Years later, I was did it with startling efficiency for someone in an emergency. Horse was in bridle. The fact that one can use and like a 12 ft rope doesnt mean you use it every time.
		
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Didn't understand a word of that!


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## Auslander (16 September 2013)

Ibblebibble said:



			surely if you have respect from the horse there is no need for gadgets such as a rope head collar and 12ft line? disappointed in you PR!!
		
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Me too. I thought he controlled his horses with the power of his mind.


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## Tinypony (16 September 2013)

Auslander said:



			Didn't understand a word of that!
		
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Glad it's not just me.  )


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## DabDab (16 September 2013)

Enfys said:



			So back to the OP.



Tosh! Horses for courses and all that. 

and, as for this  "You need a rope headcollar, a 12 foot line and respect from the horse. If you don't have all three, leave well alone." 

What? !

Literally?! 

That is a real chicken and egg statement.
		
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Did you know that the Oxford English Dictionary has now changed the definition of the word 'literally' so that it can be used to mean the same as 'figuratively' or 'metaphorically'. Confusingly though it can also still mean 'literally' (in the traditional sense) - this means that I do now have to ask you to clarify the meaning behind the statement in the quote above


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## DabDab (16 September 2013)

Oh and MY horse can tack himself up and I can levitate into the saddle, so there


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## Festivepony (16 September 2013)

Auslander said:



			Didn't understand a word of that!
		
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Tinypony said:



			Glad it's not just me.  )
		
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Me neither, have read it several times and can't understand what Skib is trying to say.


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## Moomin1 (16 September 2013)

lastchancer said:



			Well if people make inflammatory opening posts then of course people are going to bite... That's why he did it. I'm pretty sure PR is quite big enough to look after himself on an internet forum. Besides, considering the way you have insulted and belittled people on many, many other threads I don't think you really have any right to have a go at anyone. Tbh.
		
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Well for starters I have never aimed any personally offensive names at anyone on this forum.  If I have managed to insult people with my opinions on matters, then so be it.  There's a slight difference.


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## Ibblebibble (16 September 2013)

Tinypony said:



			At the risk of upsetting people, how does a thread that started out talking about how to get more control of a horse end up with people boasting about how they can lead their horses round by the rug, mane, left hind leg etc?  I'm sure a lot of people can do all sorts of things at home in their field and yard.  Good for them.  
This tends to happen here a lot.  Someone starts a discussion about an issue, then people chip in with how wonderful they and their horses are, which while it's a little bit interesting maybe (or not), doesn't prove anything or contribute to the original question.
(I may be grumpy because I've been sat here working since 6 am, if so ignore me!).
p.s.  Come back PR and look at what you've done, as if you didn't know...
		
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PR made a statement, he didn't ask a question , he generally isn't interested in discussion or our contribution,just telling us his opinion and calling us inadequate if we don't conform. Turning it into a random discussion on unusual and amusing ways of leading our own horses is the best approach to such threads


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## York2013 (16 September 2013)

Ibblebibble said:



			PR made a statement, he didn't ask a question , he generally isn't interested in discussion or our contribution,just telling us his opinion and calling us inadequate if we don't conform.
		
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Isn't that called being a troll?


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## Fii (16 September 2013)

Tinypony said:



			At the risk of upsetting people, how does a thread that started out talking about how to get more control of a horse end up with people boasting about how they can lead their horses round by the rug, mane, left hind leg etc?  I'm sure a lot of people can do all sorts of things at home in their field and yard.  Good for them.  
This tends to happen here a lot.  Someone starts a discussion about an issue, then people chip in with how wonderful they and their horses are, which while it's a little bit interesting maybe (or not), doesn't prove anything or contribute to the original question.
(I may be grumpy because I've been sat here working since 6 am, if so ignore me!).
p.s.  Come back PR and look at what you've done, as if you didn't know...
		
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This is how normal conversations evolve is it not??


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## Caol Ila (16 September 2013)

How has a thread on the length of lead ropes got to 17 pages?  Jeezo.  Who says size doesn't matter?

I like 10-12ft ones for doing groundwork because it's a hell of a lot easier to move a horse around you and ask it to change directions when on a longer lead.  Also useful for hand grazing a well behaved horse, as you can drape it over the back and it's long enough to not fall off (I, of course, always hold the rope at all times...er...) whereas 6 ft ones just slide off.  

For leading from A to B, I don't really care.


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## Alyth (16 September 2013)

I am amazed!!!!   One very true statement followed by 17 pages of mostly inaccurate uninformed drivel!!!!!!


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## Festivepony (16 September 2013)

Alyth said:



			I am amazed!!!!   One very true statement followed by 17 pages of mostly inaccurate uninformed drivel!!!!!!
		
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Are you PR's missus?


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## Goldenstar (16 September 2013)

Alyth said:



			I am amazed!!!!   One very true statement followed by 17 pages of mostly inaccurate uninformed drivel!!!!!!
		
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You might think it was true many thought it was a piece of narrow minded B******s ans behaved accordingly.


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## Fii (16 September 2013)

Alyth said:



			I am amazed!!!!   One very true statement followed by 17 pages of mostly inaccurate uninformed drivel!!!!!!
		
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Thank you...i  thought it was quite a good idea as well!


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## pansy (16 September 2013)

I am have read most of the posts , but what comes to my mind is do we ever have any real control, yes you can have a mutual trust & respect but sometimes when it's been a bit too wet or windy or maybe they are feeling a little hungrier then usual or they are the last one in they can get a bit stroppy - I have done groundwork some of you will probably say not enough but if he he wants to drag me about (which isn't very often) he has the power to do so everyone has there own ways of solving these issues & what works for 1 may not work for another
as long as no physical harm is being done to the horse or the leader then please respect each others ways - & am I allowed say Amen xx


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## Caol Ila (16 September 2013)

pansy said:



			I am have read most of the posts , but what comes to my mind is do we ever have any real control, yes you can have a mutual trust & respect but sometimes when it's been a bit too wet or windy or maybe they are feeling a little hungrier then usual or they are the last one in they can get a bit stroppy - I have done groundwork some of you will probably say not enough but if he he wants to drag me about (which isn't very often) he has the power to do so everyone has there own ways of solving these issues & what works for 1 may not work for another
as long as no physical harm is being done to the horse or the leader then please respect each others ways - & am I allowed say Amen xx
		
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Well said.  In the thread about "worst livery experiences," I told the story of a YO I had who used to get on my case because I didn't lead my horse around in a stud chain.  Her reasoning was that if the horse freaked out, I would have no control in a normal halter and lead rope (regardless of the length of the lead).  I wanted to say, "Lady, the horse weighs over 1200lbs and I weight 120lbs.  If she *really* wants to go, she's going no matter what's on her face.  Ever seen a horse charge through a fence?"

(I never said it because that YO was one of the scariest, most intimidating people I have ever met and I didn't have the chutzpah...I just nodded and smiled and continued leading my horse chainless)


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## SatansLittleHelper (16 September 2013)

My 3 year old sports horse is 16hh and lacks confidence away from other horses so can be silly and also can be really macho and lager loutish on occasion. Im pretty sure he would kill me dead if I tried to handle him with a 12ft rope..!!!
I use a proper rope halter and a short rope...he behaves like butter wouldnt melt 
A 12ft rope anywhere near a road scares me....in the same way that dog flexi leads do.
Every horse/handler is different. What works for one may not work for the next. My other horse leads in whatever you want him to.


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## Goldenstar (16 September 2013)

The thing is I don't care how PR controls his naughty horses as long the horses are happy.
I know how I approach issues and am happy that others do it differently you just can't make the jump that because some got hurt leading in a bridle all leading in bridles is wrong any more than it would logical to say if a horse stood on someone when wearing a halter and a line that the halter and a Line is at fault.
I hate halters never use them cant see the point but am very happy if other like them .
Two of mine arrived very bad to lead are now super both big strong horses who had been taught their own strength .
One thing I agree with PR ( feels faint )about its about respect and leadership ,the equipment is secondary.


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## PolarSkye (16 September 2013)

Alyth said:



			I am amazed!!!!   One very true statement followed by 17 pages of mostly inaccurate uninformed drivel!!!!!!
		
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I really shouldn't be biting, but . . . excuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuse me?

P


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## Tinypony (16 September 2013)

SatansLittleHelper said:



			My 3 year old sports horse is 16hh and lacks confidence away from other horses so can be silly and also can be really macho and lager loutish on occasion. Im pretty sure he would kill me dead if I tried to handle him with a 12ft rope..!!!
I use a proper rope halter and a short rope...he behaves like butter wouldnt melt 
A 12ft rope anywhere near a road scares me....in the same way that dog flexi leads do.
Every horse/handler is different. What works for one may not work for the next. My other horse leads in whatever you want him to.
		
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I'm sure he would, because it's not something you're trained or experienced in using.
But if you think that a good handler would struggle to deal with your horse in a rope halter and 12ft line you're mistaken.  I've organised and ridden on enough clinics with these "cowboy" horsemen to know that for a fact.  In fact the handling of a difficult horse can be remarkably undramatic and not particularly forceful.  Their approach is different, but effective.

I know we've done a bit of joking on this thread, but I find it quite sad that so many here are quite narrow minded about a simple bit of equipment.  Just because you don't know much about something doesn't mean that the way you do things is the only approach that will work does it?  Personally I know that there are many ways to attempt to control a lively horse, and people do it with short ropes, long ropes, headcollars, halters, bridles, pressure halters...  I mean seriously people, get a grip.


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## risky business (16 September 2013)

Alyth said:



			I am amazed!!!!   One very true statement followed by 17 pages of mostly inaccurate uninformed drivel!!!!!!
		
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I'm guessing you're including your post in the drivel section as well?


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## Auslander (16 September 2013)

Alyth said:



			I am amazed!!!!   One very true statement followed by 17 pages of mostly inaccurate uninformed drivel!!!!!!
		
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I love how accepting the Parelli-ites are of other ways of doing things.


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## pansy (16 September 2013)

Surely it is time to put this thread to bed xx


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## Auslander (16 September 2013)

Tinypony said:



			I'm sure he would, because it's not something you're trained or experienced in using.
But if you think that a good handler would struggle to deal with your horse in a rope halter and 12ft line you're mistaken.  I've organised and ridden on enough clinics with these "cowboy" horsemen to know that for a fact.  In fact the handling of a difficult horse can be remarkably undramatic and not particularly forceful.  Their approach is different, but effective.

I know we've done a bit of joking on this thread, but I find it quite sad that so many here are quite narrow minded about a simple bit of equipment.  Just because you don't know much about something doesn't mean that the way you do things is the only approach that will work does it?  Personally I know that there are many ways to attempt to control a lively horse, and people do it with short ropes, long ropes, headcollars, halters, bridles, pressure halters...  I mean seriously people, get a grip.
		
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The narrow minds are on both sides of the fence on this thread - wouldn't you agree?


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## doriangrey (16 September 2013)

It's my birthday today (and I've had a coupla glasses of red) so I'll bite.  If your horse is properly halter trained they should be easy enough to lead whatever the rope length.  If the horse isn't leading properly (bar high spirits) then that is a problem of respect towards the handler, and a handler issue.  I don't see how using a 12 foot rope or a bridle would be any different - they are just different pieces of kit to get the required response from the horse, aren't they?


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## SatansLittleHelper (16 September 2013)

Tinypony said:



			I'm sure he would, because it's not something you're trained or experienced in using.
But if you think that a good handler would struggle to deal with your horse in a rope halter and 12ft line you're mistaken.  I've organised and ridden on enough clinics with these "cowboy" horsemen to know that for a fact.  In fact the handling of a difficult horse can be remarkably undramatic and not particularly forceful.  Their approach is different, but effective
		
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Where did I say that someone else couldnt do it???
I dont profess to be any kind of equine expert. Was simply expressing my thoughts


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## SatansLittleHelper (16 September 2013)

Also I wanted to add that lack of "manners" isnt always down to a lack of respect. Some horses have fear/confidence issues that set a precedence for their behaviour.


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## PolarSkye (16 September 2013)

SatansLittleHelper said:



			Also I wanted to add that lack of "manners" isnt always down to a lack of respect. Some horses have fear/confidence issues that set a precedence for their behaviour.
		
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Well said.

P


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## Goldenstar (16 September 2013)

SatansLittleHelper said:



			Also I wanted to add that lack of "manners" isnt always down to a lack of respect. Some horses have fear/confidence issues that set a precedence for their behaviour.
		
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But respect and leadership are just as important for fear and confidence issues 
A horse that respects its human leader because it knows what is expected and that the human is always fair will not be fearful .


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## SatansLittleHelper (16 September 2013)

Goldenstar said:



			But respect and leadership are just as important for fear and confidence issues 
A horse that respects its human leader because it knows what is expected and that the human is always fair will not be fearful .
		
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Of course. Im not disputing that at all. However, I wasnt referring to fear of the handler as such.
Just trying to put another side to it is all...not excuses for behaviour issues but reasons none the less x


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## Enfys (17 September 2013)

DabDab said:



			Did you know that the Oxford English Dictionary has now changed the definition of the word 'literally' so that it can be used to mean the same as 'figuratively' or 'metaphorically'. Confusingly though it can also still mean 'literally' (in the traditional sense) - this means that I do now have to ask you to clarify the meaning behind the statement in the quote above 

Click to expand...

PMSL...   My head has just exploded


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## LucyPriory (17 September 2013)

Goldenstar said:



			But respect and leadership are just as important for fear and confidence issues 
A horse that respects its human leader because it knows what is expected and that the human is always fair will not be fearful .
		
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Not sure if that can always be the case.  It would be an idiot horse that wasn't scared if it was about to be swallowed up by a tsunami?  And I am terrified every time someone comes anywhere near me with a needle despite my respect for their ability. Expecting a horse to behave logically and rationally all of the time regardless is perhaps neither logical or rational.  What I do find remarkable is the amount of scenarios we face them with which they do cope with.


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## Tinypony (17 September 2013)

Auslander said:



			The narrow minds are on both sides of the fence on this thread - wouldn't you agree?
		
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Yes, I agree 100%.
But I hope you aren't including me in that because I'm not bothered what people do with their horses as long as it isn't cruel, and I am perfectly happy to allow that there are always more than one way to effectively deal with a horse.  What frustrates me is when anyone - from either side of the fence - asserts that their way is the only way, or that their horse is some sort of super-beast that nobody else would be able to deal with.
The number of times I've heard people saying "My horse would never put up with/be controlled/behave for that".  And of course they do.

Lucy I agree with you 100%.  I think horses are amazingly tolerant and often misunderstood beasts.


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## PolarSkye (17 September 2013)

Goldenstar said:



			But respect and leadership are just as important for fear and confidence issues 
A horse that respects its human leader because it knows what is expected and that the human is always fair will not be fearful .
		
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Hmmmm - I agree and disagree.  Yes, absolutely respect and leadership (and trust) are important . . . but just because Kal respects and trusts me, doesn't mean he won't be frightened of something - but it should mean that even though he is scared, he still does what I'm asking him to do, e.g., walk nicely past the pile of logs without beggaring off . . . 

. . . it's really too much to ask of a prey animal that it never feel fear . . . but it isn't too much to ask that it trust it's human handler enough to act against the instincts that fear engenders.

P


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## pip6 (17 September 2013)

Down to individuals, any 'system' only as good as user. Lady down road is Parelli instructor (registered, gets paid to teach, so should be relatively advanced & competant), 2 of her horses escaped recently & were on road so we caught them for her & put them in one of our fields for her to collect. They had dreadful manners, thoroughly rude, reared, tried to kick when being caught, bolshie ignorant gits. One was taken to show week later, not controlled properly, kicked a foal which collapsed with internal injuries, don't know if it survived.


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## fburton (17 September 2013)

Pale Rider said:



			You need a rope headcollar, a 12 foot line and respect from the horse.
		
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I would say the first two are optional; one should be able to lead a horse using anything. Or nothing - though some 'misbehaviour override' in the form of physically restraining tack is generally prudent.

And isn't "respect from the horse" simply a slightly anthropomorphic way of saying "a well trained horse"?


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## amandap (17 September 2013)

LucyPriory said:



			Not sure if that can always be the case.  It would be an idiot horse that wasn't scared if it was about to be swallowed up by a tsunami?  And I am terrified every time someone comes anywhere near me with a needle despite my respect for their ability. Expecting a horse to behave logically and rationally all of the time regardless is perhaps neither logical or rational.  What I do find remarkable is the amount of scenarios we face them with which they do cope with.
		
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I agree.



fburton said:



			And isn't "respect from the horse" simply a slightly anthropomorphic way of saying "a well trained horse"?
		
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I think so. However I'm not sure tbh.


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## Fellewell (17 September 2013)

I believe it is called a conversation, that's what happens. People digress, perfectly normal 

PR is just sitting back on his porch, watching, hound dawg at his feet on one side, spittoon on the other   maybe   [/QUOTE]

No, Pale Rider is sitting at the edge of the corral wearing a poncho and smoking a cheroot. He's looking at his pocket watch and any minute now he's going to walk over to Alyth, hand him/her a holster and say; "Now we start"


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## Caol Ila (17 September 2013)

fburton said:



			I would say the first two are optional; one should be able to lead a horse using anything. Or nothing - though some 'misbehaviour override' in the form of physically restraining tack is generally prudent.

And isn't "respect from the horse" simply a slightly anthropomorphic way of saying "a well trained horse"?
		
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I would say yes.  I try to avoid using that word because no one knows if horse not running you over = horse respecting you.  Who knows if the feelings or thoughts in the horse's mind equate to the feelings and thoughts people have when they think of "respect."  Or "disrespect" for that matter.  Thinking of it in that way, I think, causes too much emotion and preconception than is useful for the handler.  If you have a horse who is "disrespectful," you might approach the problem differently than you would if you had a horse who "needs to be trained to lead in a safe way."  At least for me, I find the unemotional, behaviourist framework more conducive to good horse training.  

I always like what Mark Rashid has to say on the subject, which is more or less that.  In one of his books, he has an anecdote about someone at one of his clinics who was chasing her horse around with a wildly swinging lead rope.  Mark asked what she was doing.  She said, "My horse is disrespectful so I am teaching him to respect me."  Mark then asked why she thought the horse was disrespectful.  She replied, "When I lead him, he tries to barge ahead."  Mark said, "So lets teach him to lead the way you want him to lead, rather than teach him to back away from a swinging rope."


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## amandap (17 September 2013)

Caol Ila said:



			I always like what Mark Rashid has to say on the subject, which is more or less that.  In one of his books, he has an anecdote about someone at one of his clinics who was chasing her horse around with a wildly swinging lead rope.  Mark asked what she was doing.  She said, "My horse is disrespectful so I am teaching him to respect me."  Mark then asked why she thought the horse was disrespectful.  She replied, "When I lead him, he tries to barge ahead."  Mark said, "So lets teach him to lead the way you want him to lead, rather than teach him to back away from a swinging rope."
		
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Like your post Caol Ila . This one one reason I am unsure whether respect = well trained horse, in that scenario it sounds like respect = control by fear in that lady's mind.


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## Caol Ila (17 September 2013)

Yes, and Mark, in that anecdote, went on to say that in spite of regularly teaching the horse "respect" by chasing it with a rope, this person still had trouble leading it (hence being at Mark's clinic).  The horse had not made the connection (how could it?) between, "Owner acting hysterical and chasing me around with a lead rope" and "Walking over owner when she leads me."   

He has a lot of interesting comments on herd dynamics and "respect."  He says that in domestic herds, you often get a "dominant" horse who likes to chase the other horses and bite and kick at them.  However, he has observed that the other horses usually don't follow that horse or choose to hang out with it.  They just learn to get out of its way.  He argues that the horses don't respect this dominant horse as a "leader," but rather they figure out what to do in order to avoid getting bitten and kicked.  The horse who the others want to follow, he goes on to say, is what he calls a "passive" leader and while it doesn't accept being bullied, it won't go out of its way to chase the other horses and will be the horse who the others look to if they see something scary, for example, or follow around.


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## tallyho! (17 September 2013)

My horse sings in a choir. 

Ner ner ne ner nerrr.... 

P.s. sorry just being an idiot as usual, no offence meant to anyone


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## amandap (17 September 2013)

Caol Ila said:



			He has a lot of interesting comments on herd dynamics and "respect."  He says that in domestic herds, you often get a "dominant" horse who likes to chase the other horses and bite and kick at them.  However, he has observed that the other horses usually don't follow that horse or choose to hang out with it.  They just learn to get out of its way.  He argues that the horses don't respect this dominant horse as a "leader," but rather they figure out what to do in order to avoid getting bitten and kicked.  The horse who the others want to follow, he goes on to say, is what he calls a "passive" leader and while it doesn't accept being bullied, it won't go out of its way to chase the other horses and will be the horse who the others look to if they see something scary, for example, or follow around.
		
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I am familiar with his thinking. I am unsure about it myself (from observations of my domestic herd) but it is certainly a more constructive way to view herd dynamics if you are going to use it as a basis for your training.

I am not surprized the horse didn't know how to lead, she hadn't taught it! lol Realizing I had to learn to be a teacher/trainer was a big eye opener for me.


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## Caol Ila (17 September 2013)

Other equine behaviourists and ethologists have also made arguments that dominance/aggression emerges when horses are in situations where resources appear to be finite.   In herds where they have a bigger range and don't have to argue over piles of hay, for example, there is less overt conflict and aggression.  But the horse who is aggressive or dominant over a pile of hay is not necessarily the horse who the others will follow if they all get spooked.

Ethologists generally make these observations based on feral or semi-feral herds.  When you're dealing with domestic horses in your usual livery situation, there are lots of other variables.  In addition to the acreage on which they're kept, you might have horses who didn't grow up in a herd environment and they're equine social skills are pretty poor (this would be my horse), plus you have a bunch of horses thrown together in a field who aren't a family group and in many livery situations, you have horses in and out as liveries move yards and new liveries come in. 

I think Mark (and the ethologists) are writing at an "NH" audience who have been lead to believe, by erroneous observations of interactions of domestic herds, that dominance and hierarchy are _the_ most important things in a horse's social life and you have to be the dominant horse.  Hence all the chasing with a leadrope or excessive amounts of join-up (join-up can be useful in small doses, but people where I am from originally go a little bit nuts with it), for no reason other than chasing. 

My own view is that the horse damn well knows we are not horses, which is a good thing.  My horse is horrid to her fellow equines, but she is lovely to handle and be around if you have two legs.


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## amandap (17 September 2013)

Oh yes, I agree. I just think there is much more going on than MR describes and it's not that simple. I can categorize my lot but individual relationships are a big factor as well as who might be 'leader' or more aggressive dominant. My 'leader' happens to be dominant but only very rarely aggressive when exerting his dominance. There is one mini mare he listens to though.


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## Caol Ila (17 September 2013)

amandap said:



			Oh yes, I agree. I just think there is much more going on than MR describes and it's not that simple. I can categorize my lot but individual relationships are a big factor as well as who might be 'leader' or more aggressive dominant. My 'leader' happens to be dominant but only very rarely aggressive when exerting his dominance. There is one mini mare he listens to though. 

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I edited while you were replying.    I agree, and I think Mark has said more or less the same thing.  As I said in my edit, I think his remarks about "passive leadership" are in response to a specific argument made by other trainers about herds having linear hierarchies based on who is the most dominant/aggressive horse.


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## PolarSkye (17 September 2013)

Caol Ila said:



			Other equine behaviourists and ethologists have also made arguments that dominance/aggression emerges when horses are in situations where resources appear to be finite.   In herds where they have a bigger range and don't have to argue over piles of hay, for example, there is less overt conflict and aggression.  But the horse who is aggressive or dominant over a pile of hay is not necessarily the horse who the others will follow if they all get spooked.

Ethologists generally make these observations based on feral or semi-feral herds.  When you're dealing with domestic horses in your usual livery situation, there are lots of other variables.  In addition to the acreage on which they're kept, you might have horses who didn't grow up in a herd environment and they're equine social skills are pretty poor (this would be my horse), plus you have a bunch of horses thrown together in a field who aren't a family group and in many livery situations, you have horses in and out as liveries move yards and new liveries come in. 

I think Mark (and the ethologists) are writing at an "NH" audience who have been lead to believe, by erroneous observations of interactions of domestic herds, that dominance and hierarchy are _the_ most important things in a horse's social life and you have to be the dominant horse.  Hence all the chasing with a leadrope or excessive amounts of join-up (join-up can be useful in small doses, but people where I am from originally go a little bit nuts with it), for no reason other than chasing. 

My own view is that the horse damn well knows we are not horses, which is a good thing.  My horse is horrid to her fellow equines, but she is lovely to handle and be around if you have two legs.
		
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This. All day long . . . I've never believed that I need to be "dominant" over Kal to get him to behave . . . but I do need to earn/have his respect by putting some black and white boundaries in place and making it very easy to understand which side of that boundary I want him to be.  

P


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## MotherOfChickens (17 September 2013)

equine relationships are not linear and constantly challenged by those horses more socially ambitious than others, so if you take one horse out of the field the others readjust their behaviours/relationships. With an establised group this might go completely unnoticed by us but its one reason there's often trouble in livery yard fields. There are also horses thought to have varying degrees of social ineptitude (good job they aren't on forums  ) that don't respond correctly.

I spent a lot of time watching my three geldings, the 'leader' wasn't actually who I thought it was and when the youngster was 2/3 there were constant little 'battles' between the two underlings. atm I just have the leader and the youngster and its much more clear cut. Another youngster will be added in the Spring, it will be interesting!

I prefer Rashid's account of herd dynamics in regard to training to say, the Parellis-still not sure its entirely accurate although agree the one they give up food to isn't they one they would follow necessarily. However, what matters is clear, consistant teaching and being fair-most problems with horses have been taught inadvertantly IMO and 'bad' behaviour on the ground is usually reinforced by the owner. I am far from perfect myself but everytime one of my horses has had a problem its been due to a hole in their education or because I've done something badly! Its good fun getting a youngster straight off the moor, has taught me alot.


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## amandap (17 September 2013)

Caol Ila said:



			I edited while you were replying.    I agree, and I think Mark has said more or less the same thing.  As I said in my edit, I think his remarks about "passive leadership" are in response to a specific argument made by other trainers about herds having linear hierarchies based on who is the most dominant/aggressive horse.
		
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Agreed. 



PolarSkye said:



			but I do need to earn/have his respect by putting some black and white boundaries in place and making it very easy to understand which side of that boundary I want him to be.  

P
		
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I think that way round ie. us earning their respect is a great way to view it. After all would we 'respect' someone who expected us to be mind readers?


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## Fellewell (17 September 2013)

tallyho! said:



			My horse sings in a choir. 

Ner ner ne ner nerrr.... 

P.s. sorry just being an idiot as usual, no offence meant to anyone 

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How lovely! Is he a Mormon? (if you're not sure offer him a cup of tea)


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## Caol Ila (17 September 2013)

amandap said:



			Agreed. 


I think that way round ie. us earning their respect is a great way to view it. After all would we 'respect' someone who expected us to be mind readers?
		
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Yes, respect, insofar as we can infer that a horse has it, comes from clear and fair boundary-setting.  Surely you've all had a boss who was a douchebag, but you did as they said because you needed the job.  But did you respect that person?


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## PolarSkye (17 September 2013)

Caol Ila said:



			Yes, respect, insofar as we can infer that a horse has it, comes from clear and fair boundary-setting.  Surely you've all had a boss who was a douchebag, but you did as they said because you needed the job.  But did you respect that person?
		
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So does that mean we're back to the Parelli assertion that withholding water makes a horse respects its human . . . horse NEEDS water/human so does as it's told, in the same way that we've all obeyed a douchebag boss because we NEEDED the job . . . ?

Also, I used the word "respect" knowing that it's a human attribute that I'm not convinced horses share . . . but if you watch herd dynamics they do respond to fairness . . . as well as kindness and demonstrated trustworthiness . . . from their fellow herd mates.

Put simply, they learn to trust when they they know what to expect . . . I hope that made sense . . . 

P


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## amandap (17 September 2013)

Caol Ila said:



			Yes, respect, insofar as we can infer that a horse has it, comes from clear and fair boundary-setting.  Surely you've all had a boss who was a douchebag, but you did as they said because you needed the job.  But did you respect that person?
		
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I had teachers in mind! lol Specifically Miss Bloodsworth! I was terrified of her, so sat silent, not daring to move a muscle in her classes but I didn't respect her! 

Yes, I think 'respect' from the horse comes from clear, consistent and fair teaching/training/handling. It isn't really respect though is it? It more trust, comfort and confidence in knowing where you stand and understanding what is expected. Aka solid training/teaching.


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## Caol Ila (17 September 2013)

So really, "respect" is a floridly problematic term and it can be ambiguous when used to describe human relationships and quite critically, it does not equate to obedience. Perhaps that is the muddle that some horse training discourse gets into:  the assumption that a "respectful" horse = an obedient one and, more problematically, that a disobedient horse = "disrespectful."   The word "respect" arguably reflects the mental processes and feelings of the person doing the respecting.  Not always their observable behaviour.  You can obey the douchebag boss or teacher, but without respect, and while you might respect your husband/wife, you don't always obey them.   

That's why I'm going to return to my original assertion, that "respect" is a pretty useless term for horse training because no one actually knows if the horse's mental processes and feelings while he follows your commands, or not, consist of what we understand as respect or the lack thereof.  I don't think it is helpful to conflate "respect" with obedience/submission.


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## YorksG (17 September 2013)

Clear consistent boundaries should be the basis for training any animal, from humans to elephants, to mice, with all things in-between. I work with adults with mental health problems, and the root cause for most of the people with a diagnosis of 'personality disorder' is lack of consistent care and boundaries (sometimes sadly not even their own skin was a boundary when they were children). No animal is born knowing the rules, and their ability to accept them is only as good as the way they are taught them.


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## amandap (17 September 2013)

Oh heck, I'm supposed  to be doing something but a light bulb has just gone off in my tiny brain! 



YorksG said:



			Clear consistent boundaries should be the basis for training any animal, from humans to elephants, to mice, with all things in-between. I work with adults with mental health problems, and the root cause for most of the people with a diagnosis of 'personality disorder' is *lack of consistent care and boundaries (sometimes sadly not even their own skin was a boundary when they were children)*. No animal is born knowing the rules, and their ability to accept them is only as good as the way they are taught them.
		
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Love that thinking about skin being a personal boundary! Makes such sense to me.

Yes Coal Ila, I also agree respect is a useless word. So many words become useless in the context of horses though don't they.


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## fburton (18 September 2013)

I agree with Paul McGreevy when he writes:

... horses are, according to the Duke of Edinburgh, at least, the Great Levellers. It does seem true that horses, unaware of rank or title, treat all humans equally. You&#8217;ll notice that I have not used the word &#8216;respect&#8217;. While it is clear that other animals do have emotions, there is no necessary correlation between theirs and our own. Respect, trust and jealousy are all conceptual notions that may be irrelevant to animal responses to us. Even though they provide a shorthand and sometimes an amusing explanation of superficial observations, we might do well to be sceptical of them. For example, any supposed intention of an animal to humiliate its owner (&#8216;he&#8217;s misbehaving just to show me up&#8217, is unlikely to have any relevance in horse-horse let alone horse-human relationships. Horses may appear respectful when they follow rules, trusting when humans apply them with consistency, or submissive and somehow dominated, when they have simply been trained not to assert themselves.

http://www.horsesandpeople.com.au/article/training-the-opportunist-and-the-comfort-seeker

(I personally think the notion of 'trust' is much less anthropomorphic than 'respect', but am aware that it _could_ be misconstrued in some situations.)


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## amandap (18 September 2013)

fburton said:



			I agree with Paul McGreevy when he writes:

... horses are, according to the Duke of Edinburgh, at least, the Great Levellers. It does seem true that horses, unaware of rank or title, treat all humans equally. 

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I agree, however how horses do behave (in horse/human interactions) is also dependent/variable on how the human treats them and their experiences. That complicates things from the human perspective and is why I think it's so important to try and understand how horses might view things and how they react to things as opposed to always seeing things from our human perspective.

ps. I just wanted to labour the point. lol


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## fburton (18 September 2013)

I think that's a good point. The ongoing challenge is to gain meaningful and practically useful insights into how horses view us, uncoloured by human cultural assumptions - or at least, not to be led too far astray by them.


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## Fellewell (18 September 2013)

fburton said:



			I agree with Paul McGreevy when he writes:

... horses are, according to the Duke of Edinburgh, at least, the Great Levellers. It does seem true that horses, unaware of rank or title, treat all humans equally. Youll notice that I have not used the word respect. While it is clear that other animals do have emotions, there is no necessary correlation between theirs and our own. Respect, trust and jealousy are all conceptual notions that may be irrelevant to animal responses to us. Even though they provide a shorthand and sometimes an amusing explanation of superficial observations, we might do well to be sceptical of them. For example, any supposed intention of an animal to humiliate its owner (hes misbehaving just to show me up), is unlikely to have any relevance in horse-horse let alone horse-human relationships. Horses may appear respectful when they follow rules, trusting when humans apply them with consistency, or submissive and somehow dominated, when they have simply been trained not to assert themselves.

http://www.horsesandpeople.com.au/article/training-the-opportunist-and-the-comfort-seeker

(I personally think the notion of 'trust' is much less anthropomorphic than 'respect', but am aware that it _could_ be misconstrued in some situations.)
		
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I love the Duke of Edinburgh, though possibly for all the wrong reasons

Do you suppose it's habitualization? We groom, feed, make them comfortable and they figure it's worth going along with our demands just for this. Particularly when they see other equines behave in similar acquiescent fashion.

When mine get bolshy I simply remind them that they haven't seen a sabre-tooth tiger in all the time they've lived with me. That makes them think


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## TrasaM (18 September 2013)

Just a thought; I share a horse, ex racer, and his owner has another TB who's a little older and not that well behaved when being handled from the ground. Today we went to get the two from their field and for some reason they swapped us around' ie my chap went to owner and wily old fox chose to come to me. As soon as we got out of the paddock he swooped down on the first bit of grass he found dragging me with him. He does this because he can and has been allowed to do it not because the lead rope was too long or too short. Personally i prefer longer ones btw. My boy on the other hand leads very well because I've made a point of teaching him to lead nicely.


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## DanceswithCows (18 September 2013)

Fellewell said:



			Do you suppose it's habitualization? We groom, feed, make them comfortable and they figure it's worth going along with our demands just for this. Particularly when they see other equines behave in similar acquiescent fashion.
		
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Of course, that's why they ended up domesticated - they thought the trade a good one, and it paid off, so the genes got replicated.


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## Fellewell (18 September 2013)

DanceswithCows said:



			Of course, that's why they ended up domesticated - they thought the trade a good one, and it paid off, so the genes got replicated.
		
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Trade-offs and interdependency. I wonder if they view us with any affection at all?
Looking at that description it could be a social scientists description of human married life in the 1950s.


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## DanceswithCows (18 September 2013)

Fellewell said:



			Trade-offs and interdependency. *I wonder if they view us with any affection at all?*
Looking at that description it could be a social scientists description of human married life in the 1950s.
		
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Personally, I think it can happen.  I know I feel affectionate towards certain individual animals, but then can slaughter others!  I think it works the other way round too, but some people need to get real - not every horse will be in love with you.  I know my two don't view _me_ with any kind of affection!


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## sarahann1 (18 September 2013)

Wow, this is still going? *shakes head and toodles off to look a happy threads*


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## amandap (18 September 2013)

I think trying to decide if horses love us is fraught with big problems. We can't even decide what love between humans means half the time. lol 

I think sticking to words like trust, as fburton suggested, is much safer personally.


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## Fellewell (18 September 2013)

DanceswithCows said:



			Personally, I think it can happen.  I know I feel affectionate towards certain individual animals, but then can slaughter others!  I think it works the other way round too, but some people need to get real - not every horse will be in love with you.  I know my two don't view _me_ with any kind of affection!
		
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Yes, perhaps affection is too strong a word to use. Interdependency is a far more realistic description of what's really going on between humans and equines IMO.


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## DanceswithCows (19 September 2013)

amandap said:



			I think trying to decide if horses love us is fraught with big problems. We can't even decide what love between humans means half the time. lol 

I think sticking to words like trust, as fburton suggested, is much safer personally.
		
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Meh, I dunno, I think we fall over ourselves to separate us from animals and 'animals don't feel this and can't feel that and we don't really know' but when you work with them everyday I think it gives you an idea.  Not a scientifically prove-able idea, but I'm not really concerned about proving anything to the science community


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## amandap (19 September 2013)

DanceswithCows said:



			Meh, I dunno, I think we fall over ourselves to separate us from animals and 'animals don't feel this and can't feel that and we don't really know' but when you work with them everyday I think it gives you an idea.  Not a scientifically prove-able idea, but I'm not really concerned about proving anything to the science community 

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We can't totally separate ourselves from animals, we are animals.

I do believe horses feel emotion and affection and we can build good and affectionate relationships with them.

I think putting feelings on to horses in respect of our interactions with them can stop us from asking why they behave in certain ways towards us. For eg. a grumpy manner, pulls faces, threatens to bite etc. they just become a grumpy horse and there's no reason to ask why, they're just like that. If they're 'just like that' we have little option but to deal with them harshly in many cases it seems. 

Hope I haven't dropped myself in doo doo.


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## YorksG (19 September 2013)

Rather than calling the response love, trust etc, as if they exists as autonomous feelings, look at it in terms of attachment theory, attachment forms the platform on which love and trust can be built. May be rubbish, but it works for me!  (all social animals have need for attachment, the types of attachment may vary from species to species)


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## amandap (19 September 2013)

YorksG said:



			Rather than calling the response love, trust etc, as if they exists as autonomous feelings, look at it in terms of attachment theory, attachment forms the platform on which love and trust can be built. May be rubbish, but it works for me!  (all social animals have need for attachment, the types of attachment may vary from species to species)
		
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I'm no scientist and don't know about attachment theory but I like the sound of that.


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