# To Stallion or not to Stallion...



## HedgePig (23 October 2019)

Hello and thank you in advance for reading this post and to those who are willing to reply. Thanks.

A little background. I grew up riding horses, from about the age of 7 and kept at it right through uni. In fact to pay my way through university I worked on a yearling stud breaking horses in. I have never considered myself a particularly technical rider, in fact 75% of the terms I see and hear used are lost on me, but I know I have a good seat and have always loved and enjoyed horses. Over the years I have owned almost exclusively thoroughbreds, with one Hanoverian. As such I hope I don't appear to know much at all and am approaching this topic with a great deal of caution and a healthy dose of common sense. I hope. 

I haven't ridden for about 20 years. Well other than the occasional holiday hack on a beach. My gf on the other hand IS a technical rider. Owns her own Spanish PRE and has had instruction every weekend in all the years I have known her. I am always genuinely impressed with her technical knowledge and her ability to get horses to do the clever stuff. I began to put feelers out about 2 months ago with a view to getting my own horse. As such I have been very, very impressed with the Baroque horses. They seem (generally) hardy and sound, they seem loyal and affectionate for the most part and they all seem to move beautifully. A game changer for me was going to a PRE specific event where I quite literally (I hate people who overuse the word literally by the way) had my mind blown. STALLIONS!?! EVERYWHERE!?! In amongst mares, geldings, lining up for awards, doing shows! Noise! Music! Lights! Drums! STALLIONS?!? All perfectly behaved! Even stalled right next to 'strange' mares and not a peep out of them?! 

Remember my background. Stallions were demons. Stallions are kept behind steel bars on the other side of the farm, infrequently in pairs but never in a herd. Ever! They were breeding machines, pure spunk and testosterone, brought out by several handlers with chain leads for the singular purpose of covering a mare and then lead back into the distance. Anyone who has seen a 17hh stallion covering needs their head read if they actually thought about riding one! That was my experience. I was young, that was just how it was done at the stud. Stallions were 'wild'.

So here I am, sitting at this show, with as many as 8 or 9 of them just casually getting on with it! Was it the Spanish blood? WHAT WAS GOING ON?!? Young and old, ridden or in hand, in formation or solo they were impeccably behaved. Truly unbelievable. I was forced to evaluate my own obvious prejudices. Have I been wrong about stallions?

(This is turning into quite the story I apologise...I hope some of you are still with me)

Through my partners Spanish horse connection I made really good friends with one of the instructors, you know when you just hit it off with someone and you behave like you grew up together. Out of an obvious early need to be diplomatic I should err on the side of discretion and not provide too much detail, other than that he is a veteran rider/instructor from the Spanish School in Vienna. With international titles. We hang out often enough and enjoy a beer or 3. 

Out of the blue last week, we were talking about something or another (he is trying to help me find a horse) and he described how he has been watching my gf and how she rides, how he feels he knows me well enough as an individual and personality and after some thought, he would like me to take ownership of his Lippizaner Stallion. *Thud*

Just like that. 

I don't wish to speculate too wildly, but this is a horse from the Siglavy bloodline, has done several years of schooling and has been trained to perform Airs above ground. To anyone not familiar, this is a classical dressage discipline where the horse is trained to rear and jump and kick in the air. It is extraordinarily beautiful and complex. 

I simply do not know what to do. I have this warped experience of stallions, embedded by years of something close to fear of them and now I have been gifted an extraordinary chance to own and ride something so exclusive I am speechless. To anyone still reading this, if you were in my position you would ABSOLUTELY be captured by the romance and thrill this opportunity represents. I would beg you to park any initial hot flush of envy you may have, if I were reading this myself I would probably quite naturally be judgemental initially. You have every right. What I am now asking for once the dust has settled is advice. Because every single one of us would take the time to do the assessment if you were given this chance.

Had I not seen the Spanish horses perform my reply would have been a reluctant but emphatic no. I must speak with my head and not my heart.
Next, this horse is WAY above my pay grade in ability. I am scared I would ruin him. The owner, however, has turned down offers over the years to buy him and is clear he believes I am right for his horse and he is currently not being used to his potential and that I will help him realise it. He believes this which compelled him to ask me. 
BUT STALLIONS!?! I have outlined my fears above. I need some pragmatic, sensible advice on owning a stallion please. From livery (I don't have my own yard) to insurance to real world expectations about how he is likely to behave in a best and worst case scenario. Hacking out. Local shows. From the outside he is a well-mannered, exceedingly well trained athlete. But I am genuinely cautious. 
We have seen him perform several times at shows and while its hardly conclusive he mixed well with other horses at the shows. We will be going to meet him in person this weekend.

So I would ask you. Give me as much advice as you are able. Tell me why you think I may (or may not) be an idiot for even thinking about it. As things stand right this second I have the time and the resources to see him every day and ensure he is well attended to. My friend has made a commitment to teach me all I need to know to continue his schooling, something he feels is not being done well enough at the moment. Hence the offer. 

I don't need to state the obvious but these horses are 'priceless'. There is a framework agreement in place for an exchange but a quick Google of "Lippizaner for sale" and the numbers by comparison for a horse with none of the training he has had sound like monopoly numbers. He is 'around' 10 years old. So I am told all of his bad habits have come and gone. 

So in closing can someone help us decide? Speaking last night my gf and I are probably about 50/50. Our main concern is that a horse of this calibre is going to be wasted on us. Thats not false modesty we just don't want to get it wrong. But, the owner wants us to have him. So we may be doing something right. I need to address my very real concerns about stallions and the serious negative stigma they have in my head. I go from feeling like a thrilled child at Christmas to sober about what the reality may mean that this really is just a dream that is not mine.

If you were me it would be criminal to not sit down and ask these questions. I hope to hear from you. 
Hedge.


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## Meowy Catkin (23 October 2019)

I think that one of the most fundamental issues which you need to be able to answer is where will he be stabled? Do you have a livery yard near you that will livery a stallion and treat him as a horse with his welfare in mind?

If you don't have that, then there is no point in thinking about it any further.


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## milliepops (23 October 2019)

Was about to ask the same as faracat. I can't think of many yards round me that would accommodate a stallion. It's not impossible but many YOs either can't or won't make adjustments necessary to give them a good life.

That said a well trained stallion is just a well trained horse with nuts, as you saw with the PREs. if you keep up the correct handling then there's no reason why they can't be civilised. But I'd get use to other people expecting it to be an out of control sex-crazed animal.


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## Orangehorse (23 October 2019)

I know people who have bought Spanish or Portugese stallions, to become part of the UK fraternity - they have shows and competitions and clinics, so it is an active group of riders.
They both had their own land and facilities.  The one I know best ended up having the horse gelded.  

I don't know how the system works abroad, I think I would want to know much more about the management and lifestyle they are used to.

I know there are some very quiet and well mannered stallions around, but I think to have a stallion on a livery yard where there is a changing population of horses, could be tricky.


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## HedgePig (23 October 2019)

Orangehorse said:



			I know people who have bought Spanish or Portugese stallions, to become part of the UK fraternity - they have shows and competitions and clinics, so it is an active group of riders.
They both had their own land and facilities.  The one I know best ended up having the horse gelded. 

I don't know how the system works abroad, I think I would want to know much more about the management and lifestyle they are used to.

I know there are some very quiet and well mannered stallions around, but I think to have a stallion on a livery yard where there is a changing population of horses, could be tricky.
		
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The truth is for the moment I just don't know. I am told he is stabled on a yard. By extension I just assume this will be with/around other horses but I should have more to go on by the weekend. My sense is that he is very well socialised. With the obvious caveat that he is not a normal mare or gelding so his handling is done differently. I have seen him at shows in the warm-up arena where he is in amongst maybe 30 other horses. And he hasn't flinched. Again my own insecurity (if that's the right term) is that its down to the rider who is perhaps working his bÃ¼tt off to keep him under control. But then I just don't know.


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## Asha (23 October 2019)

I have a very simplistic view , there are too many stallions. I personally don't understand why people want the hassle unless they intend to breed from them. I appreciate that in the right hands some are very well behaved. But theyd be equally well behaved without their nuts. Id also be questioning the owners motives. He/she may well be perfectly well intentioned. But the line ' ive been offered lots of money for him , but would rather you had him doesn't work with me. 

So my advice for someone on  livery would be get a gelding. Or get him gelded.


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## HedgePig (23 October 2019)

Asha said:



			I have a very simplistic view , there are too many stallions. I personally don't understand why people want the hassle unless they intend to breed from them. I appreciate that in the right hands some are very well behaved. But theyd be equally well behaved without their nuts. Id also be questioning the owners motives. He/she may well be perfectly well intentioned. But the line ' ive been offered lots of money for him , but would rather you had him doesn't work with me.

So my advice for someone on  livery would be get a gelding. Or get him gelded.
		
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I appreciate your response even if its notably cynical. A lot of the nuance of the circumstances is lost in translation and perhaps its down to me that you have not picked up on it. I am not naive, I have owned horses for years. I have, however, never owned a stallion. Equally in this particular setting, if my aim was simply to take him on and geld him, would be perpendicular to the spirit of this animal and his line. A quick google of the bloodline of his stallion suggests that there is a distinct absence of his offspring or siblings in the UK so again perhaps you have misunderstood. 

If your advice is a stallion is an unnecessary horse in the world today, that there is a glut of original Arab line Lippizaners in England then perhaps taking him on to simply hack off his nuts would be an answer. It is, however, not a helpful answer to me but thank you all the same.


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## tiggipop (23 October 2019)

well my thoughts (having a stallion of my own!) if you have this opinion of stallions being demons etc how on earth are you going to manage to handle one?   mine is a total poppet, but is handled confidently, correctly and consistently and he KNOWS the boundaries.. He lives just as my geldings do,  but I have my own property and therefore he gets daily turnout with other horses around him and is stabled along side them.

I understand that in this country not many livery yards can/will accommodate stallions, which is fine.


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## HedgePig (23 October 2019)

tiggipop said:



			well my thoughts (having a stallion of my own!) if you have this opinion of stallions being demons etc how on earth are you going to manage to handle one?   mine is a total poppet, but is handled confidently, correctly and consistently and he KNOWS the boundaries.. He lives just as my geldings do,  but I have my own property and therefore he gets daily turnout with other horses around him and is stabled along side them.

I understand that in this country not many livery yards can/will accommodate stallions, which is fine.
		
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Hi Tiggipop and thank you for your reply.
You're absolutely right. I have it wrong. Remember I was on a stud so my interactions were with stallions with one thing in mind. It has forced me to rethink all of this and if at the end of this thread I have 75 people telling me I am a fool and 25 saying its subjective but manageable, then I will take that advice in board and probably decline. I guess I am just ignorant. Not in a dumb-down way, I just simply do not know. Its a bit like you asking me if its a good idea to buy a helicopter (my job). Me being annoyed at you for asking the question isn't helpful, I must accept you just don't know. If the answer is its not enough to just do a poll on a forum to make a decision then I will take that on board and keep asking questions. 
I have sent out messages to 3-4 local liveries to see what they say about keeping a stallion. If anything nearby is unwilling to take him I am not about to sell up and buy a farm just yet.  (Even if I think its a lovely idea!) 

Again thank you for your reply. Hedge.


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## Auslander (23 October 2019)

HedgePig said:



			I appreciate your response even if its notably cynical. A lot of the nuance of the circumstances is lost in translation and perhaps its down to me that you have not picked up on it. I am not naive, I have owned horses for years. I have, however, never owned a stallion. Equally in this particular setting, if my aim was simply to take him on and geld him, would be perpendicular to the spirit of this animal and his line. A quick google of the bloodline of his stallion suggests that there is a distinct absence of his offspring or siblings in the UK so again perhaps you have misunderstood.

If your advice is a stallion is an unnecessary horse in the world today, that there is a glut of original Arab line Lippizaners in England then perhaps taking him on to simply hack off his nuts would be an answer. It is, however, not a helpful answer to me but thank you all the same.
		
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Could you clarify - you would be taking him on as a riding horse, or to breed from - or both?
I like stallions, and have spent a lot of time working with them. Trained and handled with a bit of common sense, there's no reason that they can't live pretty normal lives. It only seems to be in the UK that people lose their heads about the presence of stallions


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## Asha (23 October 2019)

HedgePig said:



			I appreciate your response even if its notably cynical. A lot of the nuance of the circumstances is lost in translation and perhaps its down to me that you have not picked up on it. I am not naive, I have owned horses for years. I have, however, never owned a stallion. Equally in this particular setting, if my aim was simply to take him on and geld him, would be perpendicular to the spirit of this animal and his line. A quick google of the bloodline of his stallion suggests that there is a distinct absence of his offspring or siblings in the UK so again perhaps you have misunderstood.

If your advice is a stallion is an unnecessary horse in the world today, that there is a glut of original Arab line Lippizaners in England then perhaps taking him on to simply hack off his nuts would be an answer. It is, however, not a helpful answer to me but thank you all the same.
		
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I didn't reply to be unhelpful, I was merely responding to your post.  You asked for opinions. I gave you mine.  Good luck with him


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## laura_nash (23 October 2019)

As everyone is saying your biggest problem would be other peoples attitude and finding a good livery where people aren't going to be scared of him or blame any small problem on his being entire.  You might find the higher-end competition yards are more used to stallions, or a yard that specialises in spanish types.  Almost certainly it will make livery further away and / or more expensive.  I have known a stallion on a livery yard and he was fine, but he was owned by the YO.  The other stallions I've known, who were all fine and perfectly sane, were kept at home and turned out with company (usually a gelding / geldings, but one was out with a barren mare).


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## Floofball (23 October 2019)

How exciting for you! I echo Faracat in that you need to know you can give him a home first and foremost. Iâ€™d be ringing round now before I went to see him at the weekend.


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## HedgePig (23 October 2019)

Auslander said:



			Could you clarify - you would be taking him on as a riding horse, or to breed from - or both?
I like stallions, and have spent a lot of time working with them. Trained and handled with a bit of common sense, there's no reason that they can't live pretty normal lives. It only seems to be in the UK that people lose their heads about the presence of stallions
		
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It's only as I know nothing about using stallions for breeding that my answer must be I don't know. My thinking then would be why keep him entire. But as I have said before it just 'feels' wrong to take ownership of him only to cut of his nuts simply because he MIGHT be more of a handful than the next horse. I have owned a few TB mares who would certainly have had their nuts removed if that was an option!  

Certainly he would be for riding and showing. 100%. If there is a way to include breeding in his program assuming there is a demand then I would certainly be open to it. Though I must be clear up front I know only what I have learnt out and about over the years I am not someone to be considered well informed. I would be grateful for more of your thoughts please? Hedge.


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## HedgePig (23 October 2019)

laura_nash said:



			As everyone is saying your biggest problem would be other peoples attitude and finding a good livery where people aren't going to be scared of him or blame any small problem on his being entire.  You might find the higher-end competition yards are more used to stallions, or a yard that specialises in spanish types.  Almost certainly it will make livery further away and / or more expensive.  I have known a stallion on a livery yard and he was fine, but he was owned by the YO.  The other stallions I've known, who were all fine and perfectly sane, were kept at home and turned out with company (usually a gelding / geldings, but one was out with a barren mare).
		
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This a surprisingly helpful answer thank you. Pragmatic. Not emotional. Anecdotal. So thank you. It seems a lot of this comes down to the practical stabling of the horse. Nobody has commented on my other fears about him being out of my weight-class in ability. I have sent out a few messages to local liveries for their position on taking on a stallion.


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## Orangehorse (23 October 2019)

There are plenty of stallions who both breed and compete, and live "normal" existence with turnout, thinking about dressage horses, show jumpers and some ponies.

But I wonder if these are kept at the owner's yard, where they can control who comes and goes.  I know many people say that their stallions are very quiet, but these are in a stable herd, I am guessing.  I have also seen young stallions that have been perfectly OK at home, taken to a show and let their hormones take over and cause mayhem, and generally these have been gelded by the time they appear in public again.

But as you say OP, in Spain and Portugal all the horses are stallions, so what do we know?


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## HedgePig (23 October 2019)

Whitehorseslave said:



			How exciting for you! I echo Faracat in that you need to know you can give him a home first and foremost. Iâ€™d be ringing round now before I went to see him at the weekend.
		
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Ha yes I am actually terribly excited. But trying REALLY hard to not be lead by the excitement of it. I have sent off a few messages to local liveries to see what they say. Watch this space.


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## HedgePig (23 October 2019)

Orangehorse said:



			There are plenty of stallions who both breed and compete, and live "normal" existence with turnout, thinking about dressage horses, show jumpers and some ponies.

But I wonder if these are kept at the owner's yard, where they can control who comes and goes.  I know many people say that their stallions are very quiet, but these are in a stable herd, I am guessing.  I have also seen young stallions that have been perfectly OK at home, taken to a show and let their hormones take over and cause mayhem, and generally these have been gelded by the time they appear in public again.

But as you say OP, in Spain and Portugal all the horses are stallions, so what do we know?
		
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I guess some of this will become clearer as I spend more time with him. I am clearly frustrating many reading my replies by saying 'I don't know' all the time, suggesting I am poorly equipped to make this a success. But yes, stallions everywhere. Thank you again.


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## The Fuzzy Furry (23 October 2019)

I prefer stallions, have my own yard and a secure paddock or 2. I used to breed, plus also produce the boys too and consider myself ok to handle and work stallions. Some I turned out with geldings, one lived the other side of a fence from an old mare of mine. A couple had to be solo distant turnout.
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However, because I enjoy popping to RC training and events, and meeting up with friends to ride as well as the odd comp and camp, its more practical for me to not have an entire, so I have 3 ladies.

I don't know of any livery yard near me that will have a stallion on the place bar one, which is a full livery comp yard.

Edited to add, despite my lads all being good to ride and handle, I did have issues with getting yard cover and also when out and about, due to peoples 'expectations' of a stallion......
If he's not going to cover, then get him cut.


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## laura_nash (23 October 2019)

HedgePig said:



			Nobody has commented on my other fears about him being out of my weight-class in ability.
		
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I guess I (and possibly others) aren't really clear on your fear on this one.  

Are you worried you won't be good enough to ride him, as in you will be out-horsed and will be scared or in danger riding him?  If so, that is really impossible to advise on via a forum and you would need to get someone who knows your riding (possibly your gf, NOT the person selling the horse) to advise and ideally see you riding him in a variety of different situations as per any other horse purchase.

If your worried about "wasting" him because you won't be able to train him to the same level as, say, his current owner then I wouldn't consider that at all.  No horse cares about that stuff provided they enjoy their life.  I used to share an ex-GP dressage horse who was owned by a farmers wife and used purely for hacking and he was perfectly happy and healthy, if that's what she wanted to do with him - she paid for him so nobody else's business.


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## MrPerkins (23 October 2019)

HedgePig said:



			Nobody has commented on my other fears about him being out of my weight-class in ability. I have sent out a few messages to local liveries for their position on taking on a stallion.
		
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I think this is something you'll get the most useful feedback about from the current owner. He's really the only person who can answer that for you. We can only offer the two most usual responses - 1) a horse doesn't miss what it doesn't do. Not competing to the level it *could* achieve isn't going to send it into the pits of depression. They just don't care about it the way we think. And 2) It is, however, possible to overhorse yourself.

I'd have a good chat with the owner. For one, find out WHY they have made this offer. As Asha maybe alluded to, it does sound a little strange - though not impossible, I'd want to really dig deep on that one. And also some guarantee that the owner is offering to remain in place as trainer and support network for you. I would presume so (otherwise why not sell him elsewhere?), but I'd want that reassurance.

I think if you can source livery, know you have the training and support in place, and have discussed with the owner what you would both like to see happen if things don't work out - then you'll be better set to make a decision.


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## Auslander (23 October 2019)

HedgePig said:



			It's only as I know nothing about using stallions for breeding that my answer must be I don't know. My thinking then would be why keep him entire. But as I have said before it just 'feels' wrong to take ownership of him only to cut of his nuts simply because he MIGHT be more of a handful than the next horse. I have owned a few TB mares who would certainly have had their nuts removed if that was an option! 

Certainly he would be for riding and showing. 100%. If there is a way to include breeding in his program assuming there is a demand then I would certainly be open to it. Though I must be clear up front I know only what I have learnt out and about over the years I am not someone to be considered well informed. I would be grateful for more of your thoughts please? Hedge.
		
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My query about breeding from him arose from your comments about not wanting to geld him - there seemed to be an element of romanticism about not cutting him just because of his lineage, which would be pointless if he wasn't ever to be used as a breeding stallion. Should you have him, and keep him entire because you do want to breed from him, there are ways to do it, even as a novice stallion owner. Sending him to somewhere like Twemlows where he can be dummy trained and have a good harvest of semen taken and stored would be the most sensible way to go - and you could then geld him if you find keeping an entire to be an issue, because you will have a store of semen to carry in the line. Other than TB's who have to be covered in the conventional way, most sports horse breeding these days takes place via artificial insemination. Caveat - if you geld a mature stallion, their behaviour may not change - especially stallions who have run with mares/covered

Re riding a stallion - if he's been well trained, and knows how to behave, it's no different to riding any other horse, just with a little more awareness of what's going on around you.


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## HedgePig (23 October 2019)

MrPerkins said:



			I think this is something you'll get the most useful feedback about from the current owner. He's really the only person who can answer that for you. We can only offer the two most usual responses - 1) a horse doesn't miss what it doesn't do. Not competing to the level it *could* achieve isn't going to send it into the pits of depression. They just don't care about it the way we think. And 2) It is, however, possible to overhorse yourself.

I'd have a good chat with the owner. For one, find out WHY they have made this offer. As Asha maybe alluded to, it does sound a little strange - though not impossible, I'd want to really dig deep on that one. And also some guarantee that the owner is offering to remain in place as trainer and support network for you. I would presume so (otherwise why not sell him elsewhere?), but I'd want that reassurance.

I think if you can source livery, know you have the training and support in place, and have discussed with the owner what you would both like to see happen if things don't work out - then you'll be better set to make a decision.
		
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This is another informative reply thank you. I probably need to edit my original post to reflect something less sinister about his acquisition. I am well resourced and when I was discussing my budget with my friend the number I gave against a number he must have had in his head were not that far away. He has evidently had a think about it and through a combination of outright purchase along with a weekly program of training by him (again for a fee) the numbers aren't actually that far away from each other. To be clear it represents a rather significant 'discount' (if thats the appropriate term) but its not limited to just a purchase. There is an ongoing 'retainer' for his expertise which would make this work for both him and the horse. 

Which I guess answers your 2 of 3 points. Training and support are in place. I guess I just wouldn't have the first clue about leg position to make a horse like him do 90% of the stuff he is capable of. And its important I am honest about my own ability. Hence my apprehension. 

Again thank you for your reply. Hedge.


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## Elf On A Shelf (23 October 2019)

Personally I think first and foremost you need to decide if you can truly get over your original perspective of working stud stallions. You will always have that in the back of your mind - would it continue to trouble you through the years and thus inadvertently cause you to treat this stallion a little more harshly or with a little more caution which could rub off on him? Stallions are incredibly perspective and whilst they need good, firm handling you can't pussy foot around them or be to big and bossy. You need to find your middle, mutual ground where the is no fear - on the surface or in your subconscience that will make you treat him differently.

How long are you able to spend getting to know him and learning how to work with him before you make a decision to buy him or not? 

I love stallions, I much prefer them to mares by far and away! People also readily forget that mares are entire horses too with hormones and pin all blame on stallions.


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## Barlow (23 October 2019)

If you can find a decent yard that will treat a stallion as a horse and not as a fire breathing lion then that will help. Also there is an additional responsibility - what happens when you fall off. 
FWIW my gelding was a stallion when I bought him and the livery yard I kept him at was set up for stallions (mine was one of four at the time) but as I canâ€™t guarantee staying at the yard and because I didnâ€™t want to breed I had him cut as a 5yo.


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## eggs (23 October 2019)

Have you actually ridden this horse yet?  I would start from that point as it might well be that you don't feel 'right' on him (in which case there is no point in acquiring him) but then again you might find that you just don't want to get off him.  A highly schooled horse does not suit every-one as you do have to know the right 'buttons' to press.

There is definitely a stigma with stallions and livery yards in the UK so unless you can find a yard that is used to having stallions and would keep him in an acceptable way then it would be a no-no.  I have a Spanish friend and her father breeds PREs (in Spain).  The colts are all kept entire and are perfectly used to being around each other and mares without an issue.

Unless there is a plan to breed from this horse I am not sure that there is really any benefit in keeping him entire in England as it does greatly reduce your options of livery.

No horse wakes up in the morning thinking that their talent is being wasted!


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## Abi90 (23 October 2019)

I used to work on a PRE stud and the stallions were incredibly well behaved and mannerly, even when covering. The mares could be worse than the stallions to be honest.

i have no issue with stallions and they shouldnâ€™t be frightening, we have a hang up about them in the UK, they put kids on them in Europe. Where to keep him, as has been said, will be your biggest issue


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## HedgePig (23 October 2019)

EKW said:



			Personally I think first and foremost you need to decide if you can truly get over your original perspective of working stud stallions. You will always have that in the back of your mind - would it continue to trouble you through the years and thus inadvertently cause you to treat this stallion a little more harshly or with a little more caution which could rub off on him? Stallions are incredibly perspective and whilst they need good, firm handling you can't pussy foot around them or be to big and bossy. You need to find your middle, mutual ground where the is no fear - on the surface or in your subconscience that will make you treat him differently.

How long are you able to spend getting to know him and learning how to work with him before you make a decision to buy him or not?

I love stallions, I much prefer them to mares by far and away! People also readily forget that mares are entire horses too with hormones and pin all blame on stallions.
		
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Another great reply thank you. 
I guess fear isn't the right word. Healthy respect is probably better. I can't emphasise enough how surprised I was to see PRE stallions all behaving like 'normal' horses. By the end of the weekend, in fact, I found myself having a little look at their undercarriage to confirm what I was actually looking at, it was that uniform. Yes, they would unsheathe often enough but that was it. Some would be a little 'shouty' when being led to the arena but no more or less than I have seen out of a TB in similar settings. 
I have read in forums that 'novice' stallion owners can actually be very good for a stallion, as they tend to add an additional layer of sense in their interactions, something that is good for a stallion. While making sure the rules are followed. Its not in my nature to be cruel or rough, though I won't hesitate to administer a decent wallop to any horse who is starting to behave badly. I have had a few complete idiots in my time who all ended up better than when they started. Just not stallions. Again though I don't want to curve fit what I am reading to fit my own agenda. I am trying to approach this with no agenda and seem to be hovering around the 50% mark on it being a good idea or not. In fact I seem to be reading one reply and deciding its just not going to work only to read the next one and think its entirely doable and quite exciting. 

The owner is not on a schedule to unload. My next steps would be to meet him a few times. Ride him at least as many times. If I am nipping myself and can't 'settle' then I will decline. I am not a glutton for punishment. 

Thank you again for your reply. Hedge.


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## HedgePig (23 October 2019)

eggs said:



			Have you actually ridden this horse yet?  I would start from that point as it might well be that you don't feel 'right' on him (in which case there is no point in acquiring him) but then again you might find that you just don't want to get off him.  A highly schooled horse does not suit every-one as you do have to know the right 'buttons' to press.

There is definitely a stigma with stallions and livery yards in the UK so unless you can find a yard that is used to having stallions and would keep him in an acceptable way then it would be a no-no.  I have a Spanish friend and her father breeds PREs (in Spain).  The colts are all kept entire and are perfectly used to being around each other and mares without an issue.

Unless there is a plan to breed from this horse I am not sure that there is really any benefit in keeping him entire in England as it does greatly reduce your options of livery.

No horse wakes up in the morning thinking that their talent is being wasted!
		
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Ha ha I loved your last line!

I have not ridden him yet, no. Like any normal purchase I would expect to a good few times in various settings to see if we are a good fit. I didn't say before that my Hanoverian and I were NOT a good fit. This may sound counter intuitive but I didn't ever really 'like' him. Not his fault, he did everything I asked him to but he was a horse I just never felt a particular bond with. I will not be making that mistake again as I don't think it was fair on either of us. I had him for only 8 months before I sold him on and actually felt relief. Where with every other horse I owned I felt genuine remorse and sadness. 

Thank you for your reply. Hedge.


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## HedgePig (23 October 2019)

Abi90 said:



			I used to work on a PRE stud and the stallions were incredibly well behaved and mannerly, even when covering. The mares could be worse than the stallions to be honest.

i have no issue with stallions and they shouldnâ€™t be frightening, we have a hang up about them in the UK, they put kids on them in Europe. Where to keep him, as has been said, will be your biggest issue
		
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I wonder why our attitudes are so divergent? Health and safety gone mad?


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## splashgirl45 (23 October 2019)

my friend had a stallion and he was kept in her yard and was treated as the same as all of the other horses apart from not being handled by novices.  he also competed and was used as a stallion.  he was a complete gentleman and never behaved in a stalliony way except when covering......but this was on her own yard where she was in charge of who did what etc........so my main  concern would be the quality of the horse's life.  will he get turn out, will he get plenty of ridden exercise and are you up to riding a horse who is well schooled in all of the tricks or will you be confusing him when you ride, this would apply to any horse not just a stallion.  if you buy him could he stay at his current yard where he is obviously well settled.. if this owner is so in favour of you as an owner could you have him on loan with view to buy  for a short period of time to make sure that you are a good fit for him....of course you may go to try him and find he is not what you are expecting so decision made...


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## HedgePig (23 October 2019)

splashgirl45 said:



			are you up to riding a horse who is well schooled in all of the tricks or will you be confusing him when you ride,
		
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Hi and thank you for your reply. This a pretty big part of my central concern. I just don't think I am a good enough technical rider for him. But others make a great point. If he is happy and healthy and social and loved, does he care that we aren't learning battle formations? I guess in my head I see him as something of a performance horse. Who doesn't want to own a Lamborghini (I know Italian not Spanish) but that doesn't mean I need to be willing to compete at Le Mans before I should own one. Equally no horse of mine has ever been allowed to be a princess. When its time to work, its time to work. But we look forward to our hacks and swims together too. I don't even know if this chap can hack. If he can't then we aren't a good fit and I won't be taking him. On the other end of the scale I don't want a happy hacker that gets put into a school and everyone rides. He is special. And his unique skills need to be built on and advanced. I just feel so stupid with all this.


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## milliepops (23 October 2019)

this is getting pretty multicultural between the spanish, french, italian and austrian 

where do you anticipate swimming with this horse?

I really wouldn't overthink anything until you know first if you can find somewhere to keep it and second whether you like riding it.


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## splashgirl45 (23 October 2019)

dont feel stupid,  you are doing all the right things and are being cautious and finding out all of the negatives before you make a decision.  what i meant about riding a horse who is well schooled is that they can get confused and upset if the rider is novice and keeps giving aids incorrectly.  i dont know how advanced you are, but i am an ordinary rider with lots of knowledge but limited ability and have ridden some grand prix horses and needed lots of help to give the correct aid.  as an example i used too much seat and leg when attempting to go into halt and i ended up with a lovely piaffe.  luckily his rider was giving me a lesson and explained what i did wrong and her horse was very forgiving.. just because a horse can do all of the tricks doesnt mean he will be unhappy if he doesnt do them ... you just need to try him and see how you get on and then you will be able to make a decision.  good luck, and if you get him we need pics please


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## HedgePig (23 October 2019)

I have just come off the phone to my local livery (a very large equestrian centre with an indoor arena) who say subject to a few practical questions, they would be willing to take a stallion. That's one big box checked...


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## HedgePig (23 October 2019)

milliepops said:



			this is getting pretty multicultural between the spanish, french, italian and austrian 

where do you anticipate swimming with this horse?

I really wouldn't overthink anything until you know first if you can find somewhere to keep it and second whether you like riding it.
		
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Ha ha ok a little more detail, I grew up in Africa where we would often take our horses swimming. It was both fun and excellent physio for a recovering horse. And the water was warm!!


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## HedgePig (23 October 2019)

splashgirl45 said:



			dont feel stupid,  you are doing all the right things and are being cautious and finding out all of the negatives before you make a decision.  what i meant about riding a horse who is well schooled is that they can get confused and upset if the rider is novice and keeps giving aids incorrectly.  i dont know how advanced you are, but i am an ordinary rider with lots of knowledge but limited ability and have ridden some grand prix horses and needed lots of help to give the correct aid.  as an example i used too much seat and leg when attempting to go into halt and i ended up with a lovely piaffe.  luckily his rider was giving me a lesson and explained what i did wrong and her horse was very forgiving.. just because a horse can do all of the tricks doesnt mean he will be unhappy if he doesnt do them ... you just need to try him and see how you get on and then you will be able to make a decision.  good luck, and if you get him we need pics please 

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I laughed. That is exactly what I was thinking. Here I am THINKING I am giving an inside leg and I can't understand why I am seeing him change on the fly or something exotic. To be brutally honest my gf is the expert here. And I expect I shall just ride him and undo all the hard work! But at least it will be fun. Of course I have pics! But as I said I want to be appropriate as he is a fairy well-known horse with a number of titles and its entirely possible other who know him may be reading this post and I would hate for my amateurism to be a reflection of the judgement of his owner and doing any harm by proxy.


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## dree (23 October 2019)

Personally, I think you are looking at this horse from your previous experiences of stallions.  Stallions are perfectly capable of being kept in the same conditions as other horses, but in the UK, we seem to have a fear of stallions.  I think once you have ridden him a few times, and found out if you actually like him or not, I would go for it.  Stallions that have been handled properly, with respect but not abuse, are not hard to handle if you maintain that respect.  Stabling here in the UK would be the hardest stumbling block, imo.   I hate the way most stallions are kept well away from other horses......the only reason for this is that most people are frightened of them so stallions take advantage of that fear.  (As would any decent horse.)  If you are not frightened of him, if you treat him with respect, if you request respect in return, then that is not a problem.  But ride him a few times and see how you feel about him.  Will you be able to reach the dizzy heights with him?  Only you and he will know!!    (In fact, I found that well trained horses were easier to train because there are only so many "buttons" and they will follow leg commands easily.  Soft hands and plenty of release.  But, as I said, the stabling will be your biggest issue.


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## ycbm (23 October 2019)

The problem with stallions and livery yards in the UK is how very few of them are able to offer turnout separated from mares. Check that the livery you have spoken to doesn't expect him to be kept in full time. That's pretty much how they are managed in Spain and Portugal, as I understand.

Riding wise, the biggest dope I ever rode was a big black Danish warmblood.

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## HedgePig (23 October 2019)

dree said:



			Personally, I think you are looking at this horse from your previous experiences of stallions.  Stallions are perfectly capable of being kept in the same conditions as other horses, but in the UK, we seem to have a fear of stallions.  I think once you have ridden him a few times, and found out if you actually like him or not, I would go for it.  Stallions that have been handled properly, with respect but not abuse, are not hard to handle if you maintain that respect.  Stabling here in the UK would be the hardest stumbling block, imo.   I hate the way most stallions are kept well away from other horses......the only reason for this is that most people are frightened of them so stallions take advantage of that fear.  (As would any decent horse.)  If you are not frightened of him, if you treat him with respect, if you request respect in return, then that is not a problem.  But ride him a few times and see how you feel about him.  Will you be able to reach the dizzy heights with him?  Only you and he will know!!    (In fact, I found that well trained horses were easier to train because there are only so many "buttons" and they will follow leg commands easily.  Soft hands and plenty of release.  But, as I said, the stabling will be your biggest issue.
		
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I ended a call a few minutes ago with a huge local equestrian centre who have said they both have stallions and would be willing to take another on. They come very well recommended online and have a huge indoor arena. This is an excellent step forward. Your advice feels sincere and informed thank you.


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## HedgePig (23 October 2019)

ycbm said:



			The problem with stallions and livery yards in the UK is how very few of them are able to offer turnout separated from mares. Check that the livery you have spoken to doesn't expect him to be kept in full time. That's pretty much how they are managed in Spain and Portugal, as I understand.

Riding wise, the biggest dope I ever ride was a big black Danish warmblood.

.
		
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Ha ha I don't mind a little dope!
Your question is on my list of questions for the yard.


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## ycbm (23 October 2019)

dree said:



			Stallions are perfectly capable of being kept in the same conditions as other horses, but in the UK, we seem to have a fear of stallions.
		
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I'm sorry Dree but this isn't true. They are mostly capable of being kept in the same conditions as most geldings and mares that are kept well separated by sex. That can be a huge problem on a livery yard which has mares, both with logistics of who is turned out where, and with the natural fear of mare owners of an accident occurring.

A few years back Heather Moffett, who was well used to handling Iberian stallions, had an accident at her yard where a stallion called Beato got free and chased an livery's old mare until she died. While this is rare, it's why mare owner's fears are not wholly unjustified.



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## Queenbee (23 October 2019)

I can't truly give you a yay or nay - answer but I would be asking these questions:

Is there anywhere you can keep him entire where he will be both welcomed and have a good and normal life?

I understand your reluctance at getting him only to lop his nuts off, but if you are not buying to breed and bearing in mind the very slim chances of finding an appropriate yard that will welcome him with said nuts... this really is something I would consider doing if I took him on.  You wouldn't be the first or the last to buy a lovely horse and geld it.  Furthermore, if you do not intend to use him for breeding, which I do think is sensible, what does it matter what his bloodlines are?

You then have the instructor - call me cynical yes, but truthfully isn't that why you have come on here asking the question... you want people to point out the possible negatives and pitfalls that you may find it harder to acknowledge at this point in time... What I mean is, when we fall 'in love' with a horse, we don't often ask the hard questions, we need someone else to do this on our behalf because we become star-crossed.  So, back to the instructor... this person has invested a lot of time, training and money, blood, sweat and tears into producing what sounds like a wonderfully trained and quality horse.  This instructor whilst knowing you and your character is aware that you have not really ridden in 20 years.  No matter how much I admired and trusted the instructor and their judgement - I would feel caution over this.  Flip the coin... would you ever sell a horse based on that premis?

The next thing is the breed and the training.  Now many people have done it.... had a break, bought a pre or even a tb... something completely different to their old rides and made a go of it.  There is no reason to 'stick with what you know' but its a huge jump, that should not be overlooked.  I have been there and done it... my mare wasn't well trained, but she was a friesian tb... totally headstrong and willful, I had only been out of the saddle for 3 years.  She turned out to be my 'once in a lifetime' but before  that she was my nightmare, I almost broke my back, I felt way too over-horsed, I broke my heart most days for a couple of years and after 3 years out of the saddle I was not really fit enough to deal with her shenanigans and every part of me hurt! Would I do it again, knowing what I now know - yes, absolutely!  

You will have a lot of challenges, not least the facts that it may feel like you are talking two different languages, pre's aren't TB's by nature and your riding style and his training style will be very different... don't discount this horse, but I would absolutely be listening to and considering every hard and difficult question raised and point made in this thread... at the very least if you do buy this horse it will enable you to go into it with eyes relatively open and a clear plan. Perhaps the owner will consider a trial to assess if you truly are a good fit. Finally, invest in lots of bath soak, heat pads and painkillers.... 20 years out of the saddle is a long while...


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## HedgePig (23 October 2019)

Prancer & Vixen/Grinch said:



			I can't truly give you a yay or nay - answer but I would be asking these questions:

Is there anywhere you can keep him entire where he will be both welcomed and have a good and normal life?

I understand your reluctance at getting him only to lop his nuts off, but if you are not buying to breed and bearing in mind the very slim chances of finding an appropriate yard that will welcome him with said nuts... this really is something I would consider doing if I took him on.  You wouldn't be the first or the last to buy a lovely horse and geld it.  Furthermore, if you do not intend to use him for breeding, which I do think is sensible, what does it matter what his bloodlines are?

You then have the instructor - call me cynical yes, but truthfully isn't that why you have come on here asking the question... you want people to point out the possible negatives and pitfalls that you may find it harder to acknowledge at this point in time... What I mean is, when we fall 'in love' with a horse, we don't often ask the hard questions, we need someone else to do this on our behalf because we become star-crossed.  So, back to the instructor... this person has invested a lot of time, training and money, blood, sweat and tears into producing what sounds like a wonderfully trained and quality horse.  This instructor whilst knowing you and your character is aware that you have not really ridden in 20 years.  No matter how much I admired and trusted the instructor and their judgement - I would feel caution over this.  Flip the coin... would you ever sell a horse based on that premis?

The next thing is the breed and the training.  Now many people have done it.... had a break, bought a pre or even a tb... something completely different to their old rides and made a go of it.  There is no reason to 'stick with what you know' but its a huge jump, that should not be overlooked.  I have been there and done it... my mare wasn't well trained, but she was a friesian tb... totally headstrong and willful, I had only been out of the saddle for 3 years.  She turned out to be my 'once in a lifetime' but before  that she was my nightmare, I almost broke my back, I felt way too over-horsed, I broke my heart most days for a couple of years and after 3 years out of the saddle I was not really fit enough to deal with her shenanigans and every part of me hurt! Would I do it again, knowing what I now know - yes, absolutely! 

You will have a lot of challenges, not least the facts that it may feel like you are talking two different languages, pre's aren't TB's by nature and your riding style and his training style will be very different... don't discount this horse, but I would absolutely be listening to and considering every hard and difficult question raised and point made in this thread... at the very least if you do buy this horse it will enable you to go into it with eyes relatively open and a clear plan. Perhaps the owner will consider a trial to assess if you truly are a good fit. Finally, invest in lots of bath soak, heat pads and painkillers.... 20 years out of the saddle is a long while... 

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I laughed. Thank you for this reply its a goodie. 
I think its natural to be slightly on the defensive when strangers pick apart your plan to rule the world. But you are absolutely correct I am here to face the music even if it makes for uncomfortable listening. I have been unable to edit my original post (noob) to reflect a more accurate explanation of the exchange. I discussed a general budget with my friend while talking about a horse for me. As the conversation has developed and we have spoken in more detail about training for my gf on her spanish horse, I touted the idea of paying him a form of retainer and included my training in it. Weekly stuff for as long as a year at a time. Remember we are not strangers we get on and he enjoys working with my gf already. If one includes a form of contract for his services in tandem with a fair value for his horse, the numbers make perfect sense. I apologise if it felt like a sinister deal handled under cover in trench coats. It is however not a Â£500 handshake. 

Its just that typically these types of horses aren't just 'for sale' and I guess I am testimony to exactly the sort of fantastic opportunity that comes along when you network well in the horse community. 

I know next to zero about Lippizaners. You're right. I have only ever ridden TB's and they can be complete bananas, I've had to use a combination of kimblewick and hackamore bridle on a particularly bad case initially, that ended with a pretty soft pelham. At the outset I was probably mad to look at him too. Though I am at an age where I don't need my ego involved! Too many broken bones already. 

Thank you for your reply.


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## Crazy_cat_lady (23 October 2019)

I haven't ever had a stallion before so others with experience have offered far better advice 

You mention you're going to have lessons on him as you're not that technical- you've mentioned your girlfriend is technical if you're worried about him being "wasted" could she pop on him from time to time to have a play and go through all the movements with him just to keep it fresh until you've been taught them?

How much work is he in currently? Is it likely to drastically change as his personality may then change if he's used to hard work and you can only ride him a couple of times?

The best thing to do is go ride him, if you're friends with his seller and they are offering him to you they should let you try him out in a few situations eg at his place a couple of times then a more busy scenario? Will you hack him?


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## HedgePig (23 October 2019)

Ha yes, yes, yes and I don't know!
But yes my partner is a much more technical rider. The idea would be that between us he will get exercised daily, along with ongoing 'big schooling' with the veteran instructor weekly too. I am honest enough with myself that if I feel he's not a good fit for me having ridden him I won't follow through. Equally I want to be able to ride out with him so he does need to be pretty bombproof. On the face of it he is. Riding him a few times should give me more clarity. 

At the moment he is schooled every day at 5am. I'm not going to be doing any of that! 
Not at 5am anyway but certainly daily rides. I don't know if its a good example but at the moment I go along to my gf lesson each Sunday and set up camera equipment and record the lesson. We then work over it that evening and discuss what she wants to do with it in tandem with the homework she has been given. We then go back to the arena 2-3 times that week and again with the cameras (I use a tripod and a go-pro on her body) we work to get things as close to perfect based on the last week's lesson. The results have been extraordinary for her and her horse and I would hope to continue the same sort of thing for me. In between she will hack, in fact she left at 12:30 today and is out riding as I type this. So on the face of it stimulus and work should be enough. I believe.


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## Littlebear (23 October 2019)

Where is the horse at the moment is it stabled in the UK?


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## ycbm (23 October 2019)

And where will your girlfriend be keeping hers?

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## HedgePig (23 October 2019)

Littlebear said:



			Where is the horse at the moment is it stabled in the UK?
		
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Yes, it is about a 2 hour drive from me and we have agreed for me to meet him up close for the first time this Sunday, all being equal. Both the owner and the horse have an excellent reputation in the PRE community locally so I have zero concerns about the legitimacy of the horse nor owner.


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## HedgePig (23 October 2019)

ycbm said:



			And where will your girlfriend be keeping hers?

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At the moment her horse is stabled on a private property with about 5 other PREs, I would estimate maybe a 2 minute drive or 10 minute walk by horse from where I have had this initial approval to stable a stallion. So not far from each other, though about a 20 minute drive from our home.


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## Otherwise (23 October 2019)

I've worked on a yard that accepted stallions, we had 4 at one time 3 of which were PREs and I've seen the trouble the stallion owners had finding somewhere else for them when the yard shut down, even the well behaved calm ones. They've all now ended up in private yards that the owners have bought or rented at great expense despite some of them trying various livery yards, some being an hour and a half away. I don't see anything wrong with keeping a stallion entire but only if I could guarantee it had a similar quality of life to any other horse. There's a real lack of decent yards in my area, I would struggle to find one that I'd be happy with, isn't too far away and accepts stallions. Unless I had my own place I'd probably have a stallion castrated, they can take semen during the op if you want the option of breeding in the future.

Just to add, PREs aren't some magical breed where every stallion is as easy as a gelding. We had one that was a right terror, he had run with a herd of mares up until 5 and basically had to be isolated as he was a danger to other horses and people. We still managed to give him a couple of hours turnout each day but he couldn't have any other horses too close to him. He would have had a much happier life as a gelding, the owner refused as they liked the idea of having a stallion, it was viewed like some sort of status symbol.


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## HedgePig (23 October 2019)

Otherwise said:



			I've worked on a yard that accepted stallions, we had 4 at one time 3 of which were PREs and I've seen the trouble the stallion owners had finding somewhere else for them when the yard shut down, even the well behaved calm ones. They've all now ended up in private yards that the owners have bought or rented at great expense despite some of them trying various livery yards, some being an hour and a half away. I don't see anything wrong with keeping a stallion entire but only if I could guarantee it had a similar quality of life to any other horse. There's a real lack of decent yards in my area, I would struggle to find one that I'd be happy with, isn't too far away and accepts stallions. Unless I had my own place I'd probably have a stallion castrated, they can take semen during the op if you want the option of breeding in the future.

Just to add, PREs aren't some magical breed where every stallion is as easy as a gelding. We had one that was a right terror, he had run with a herd of mares up until 5 and basically had to be isolated as he was a danger to other horses and people. We still managed to give him a couple of hours turnout each day but he couldn't have any other horses too close to him. He would have had a much happier life as a gelding, the owner refused as they liked the idea of having a stallion, it was viewed like some sort of status symbol.
		
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You make a good point in you closing and I am working hard to NOT be drawn into any kind of status reflection or similar here. But denying that his pedigree and training is not a significant factor in all this is disingenuous too. Its a fine line. 

The horse is however being schooled in line with the Viennese school and he has been following their curriculum. They are all stallions with no exceptions. Dispensing with the romance of it right up front, if I was simply going to buy him and felt he was a bit of a handful and a solution was to geld him, then I wouldn't consider myself a very good match for him as an owner. That's the deal. He is a Lippizaner stallion, trained to perform airs above ground and chopping his nuts off because I am unable to find him an appropriate facility would reflect very poorly on me. Then he needs to go to an owner who does have the capacity to 'handle' him. He is not some wild colt who we are taking a gamble on that he's going to be an idiot. He is schooled and disciplined and well-mannered already. Any subsequent bad behaviour he learns will be down to me and as such not a responsibility I relish if he is beyond my means. 

I am excited by the opportunity but have admitted I am only 50/50 here. I will be getting a horse. I will be working hard with it as is in my nature. That horse will be going to a really good home. I just was not expecting it to be THIS horse and so I must step back and be objective. I know you know what I mean here this is a pretty big deal for me and if I am already keeping having him gelded before I have ridden him, I just don't feel I am a good fit, for him.


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## rara007 (23 October 2019)

I wouldnâ€™t have a stallion on livery in the UK. 

My (pony) stallion is super chilled (usually!), but heâ€™d be castrated if I had to move him without question. Weâ€™re excluded from quite a few local riding clubs as it is (Having never been allowed- heâ€™s never disgraced himself!)let alone trying to find him a home with turnout. Heâ€™s the pally.


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## HedgePig (23 October 2019)

rara007 said:



			I wouldnâ€™t have a stallion on livery in the UK.

My (pony) stallion is super chilled (usually!), but heâ€™d be castrated if I had to move him without question. Weâ€™re excluded from quite a few local riding clubs as it is (Having never been allowed- heâ€™s never disgraced himself!)let alone trying to find him a home with turnout. Heâ€™s the pally.

View attachment 37857
View attachment 37856

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Helpful! Ha I guess its the moments when he is not 'super chilled' that I want to hear about...


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## ycbm (23 October 2019)

HedgePig said:



			At the moment her horse is stabled on a private property with about 5 other PREs, I would estimate maybe a 2 minute drive or 10 minute walk by horse from where I have had this initial approval to stable a stallion. So not far from each other, though about a 20 minute drive from our home.
		
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Close as they may be, I think you may find it a pain in the neck and a severe reduction in fun levels to have your horses at different yards. Just something else to consider.

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## ester (23 October 2019)

HedgePig said:



			Helpful! Ha I guess its the moments when he is not 'super chilled' that I want to hear about... 

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He's usually horizontal. 

I think the likely big difference between the UK and the continent is the amount of herd turnout most yards revolve around here which stallions aren't always compatible with. 

I'm impressed by your dedication to filming


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## HedgePig (23 October 2019)

ester said:



			He's usually horizontal.

I think the likely big difference between the UK and the continent is the amount of herd turnout most yards revolve around here which stallions aren't always compatible with.

I'm impressed by your dedication to filming 

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I chuckled. Thank you! We have found its really the only way to improve. During the lesson you are getting so much information and if its noisy you don't get to hear a lot of what is being said. I have just invested in digital duplex headsets so the rider and instructor can communicate better during the lesson. 

I guess step one is to meet him. Get an honest read from the owner about what he is like and what sort of life he leads at the moment. If he is getting turned out in a group every day it's easy. If he is being locked in his stable 23 hours a day and hand walked for 20 minutes at sunset, its not going to work. To be clear I get the sense its more likely to be option one than two. 
I just don't want to saddle myself (pun!) with a horse that I need to count to 3 and brace myself to open the stall door. Though as I sit here and type this for the most part the malicious behaviour I have seen most of has been from mares. I have seen a few real meanies, who will position you in a subtle way to inflict some serious harm. Arguably they are 'entire' too and dealing with their own set of hormones etc. But nobody seems to bat an eyelid at them. 

I shall update as I go!


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## cornbrodolly (23 October 2019)

It seems , OP , that you are very against gelding this horse. However, if you think it through logically, the horse would have a much easier life. He wouldnt suddenly become less schooled when gelded, or harder to train from then on. he would be the same animal, minus his bits!
 He could live on a mixed yard. Your worry level would be greatly lessened. If his breeding line is so fantastic, you can , as described above,  freeze and store semen . If you geld you are certainly no less of a rider , just a pragmatic and sensible owner.
Now that we are in our 60 s we no longer stand stallions [our 2 were  warmbloods]. Life is much easier without them , no matter how well behaved they were. [ Both competed dressage, showing etc, and our first was regularly hunted , no one even noticing he was entire]
 I think your view of stallions will affect how you handle one , perhaps you ought to handle some other stallions first, before owning one? To get a clearer picture of how you need to be with them? They are 'only' horses after all, by which I mean they arent raging tigers out to kill us [ or if they are, their handling has been extremely mismanaged] 
Our first stallion lived by himself in a paddock where he could see the mares [ he also had visiting mares] ; the second  lived with 2 mares and their offspring . Without the luxury of our own land and set up I would never have contemplated keeping stallions. And they had a settled and happy life. I cannot bear stallions in all the time , and I dont believe riding is a good alternative for turn out.  , its just no life for any horse.  This confinement is why the stallions you came across, and in many places , are difficult - they become jaded ,bored, unhappy and then finally they flip.
 In the Iberian countries the ridden stallions are usually in bachelor herds, which is a fairly natural way for them to be. No mares means no rivalry ! In the wild very few stallions get to mate, the rest are in male only herds - sometimes all their lives.  
We have also dealt with Iberian geldings that have come to UK to owners who have had great difficulty in handling them , so they are no no means all quiet.  Yes, they look beautiful, noble, romantic , but perhaps we need to look beyond that to think about what we need in a horse , rather than a dream that can quickly end in tears.


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## milliepops (23 October 2019)

why has the current owner not bred from the horse, if the lines are so important or rare that you as a first time stallion owner may do so? just curious.


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## Amymay (23 October 2019)

Two things spring to mind (well more than two, but two will suffice)

1.  Youâ€™ve spoken to a livery yard that will accept a stallion - great.  What happens if you have to move the horse?

2.  If the owner is producing high quality performance horses, they are unlikely to sell to you.


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## HedgePig (23 October 2019)

amymay said:



			Two things spring to mind (well more than two, but two will suffice)

1.  Youâ€™ve spoken to a livery yard that will accept a stallion - great.  What happens if you have to move the horse?

2.  If the owner is producing high quality performance horses, they are unlikely to sell to you.
		
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1) I picked up the phone and called the best yard I know and they said yes. Certainly at some point after should I decide to go with this I will have plans in place should he need to be moved. Starting to feel a little cart before horse here...
2) If there is a willing buyer and a willing seller and he believes me appropriate for his horse, I am not sure I understand why he would not sell it to me? What do you mean by 'if they are performance horses he is unlikely to sell to you'?


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## HedgePig (23 October 2019)

milliepops said:



			why has the current owner not bred from the horse, if the lines are so important or rare that you as a first time stallion owner may do so? just curious.
		
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I have no answer to this. I have tried to be clear about what I do know, as limited as it is and asked for guidance based on what I do know. I have not even met the horse I am trying to determine why one should, or should not keep a stallion.


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## Amymay (23 October 2019)

The owner has a reputation to uphold. If heâ€™s producing horses to a specific high end market heâ€™s unlikely to sell to anyone not able to fulfill his breeding and production objectives - hence his â€˜reputationâ€™.


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## ycbm (23 October 2019)

milliepops said:



			why has the current owner not bred from the horse, if the lines are so important or rare that you as a first time stallion owner may do so? just curious.
		
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In any case this is no reason not to geld. You can have his semen collected and kept frozen as straws, so that it can be used/sold at any time that seems a good idea in the future. 

.


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## milliepops (23 October 2019)

HedgePig said:



			I have no answer to this. I have tried to be clear about what I do know, as limited as it is and asked for guidance based on what I do know. I have not even met the horse I am trying to determine why one should, or should not keep a stallion.
		
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That's fair enough,  I was just interested based on your answer about possibility mixing breeding duties with ridden work.


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## HedgePig (23 October 2019)

amymay said:



			The owner has a reputation to uphold. If heâ€™s producing horses to a specific high end market heâ€™s unlikely to sell to anyone not able to fulfill his breeding and production objectives - hence his â€˜reputationâ€™.
		
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I shall be happy to ask him why he has deemed me worthy of the opportunity. We have spoken loosely around a sale on terms we both find agreeable. 

If you are asking me to tell him he has wildly underestimated my ability and it will subsequently trash his reputation, I'm not sure how I should frame that conversation. Though admittedly I'm starting to feel distinctly talked out of it, Vs into it. 

Which I guess is what I asked for.


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## Elf On A Shelf (23 October 2019)

My theory on the breeder thing - if you gf is competing well on a PRE he may see an opportunity to get his bloodlines into Britain and be seen. He probably has siblings to this particular horse and by doing a deal to another country -  hoping that either yourself or your gf get the horse out competing doing something to be seen in effect his stud is being seen. It may generate more sales or breeding prospects. Basically he may be using you as a bit of a shop window. No harm in it if he has faith in you and the horse not to screw it all up and make him and his bloodlines look like idiots. 

Either that or he is hoping to scam you out of your money and run off into the sunset! It's not unheard of!


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## Bellaboo18 (23 October 2019)

Personally unless I had my own land and facilities I just wouldn't have a stallion. Most livery yards just aren't set up for them and I'd be very concerned if everything a yard promised fell through I'd be left with very few options of places to move to...
Sorry not your question but, the idea of not riding for 20 years and then buying a flashy stallion as a ridden horse seems bonkers to me!


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## be positive (23 October 2019)

HedgePig said:



			I shall be happy to ask him why he has deemed me worthy of the opportunity. We have spoken loosely around a sale on terms we both find agreeable.

If you are asking me to tell him he has wildly underestimated my ability and it will subsequently trash his reputation, I'm not sure how I should frame that conversation. Though admittedly I'm starting to feel distinctly talked out of it, Vs into it.

Which I guess is what I asked for.
		
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It does all seem a bit odd, he has never seen you ride yet is offering you this horse he has trained for many years to a very high level based on your dedication towards the training of the horse belonging to your girlfriend? not sure if I have missed something but I have no idea how he can estimate your ability as a rider or even as a potential owner when you have very little idea of handling a stallion, you have not ridden any horse for years, have nowhere of your own to keep it, the livery yard may be top class but it is not your home so things could change or it may not be so ideal once the horse moves in, far too many variables that would make me think twice about selling you any horse let alone one I was so invested in.


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## Amymay (23 October 2019)

Put far better than me BP


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## Bellaboo18 (23 October 2019)

be positive said:



			It does all seem a bit odd, he has never seen you ride yet is offering you this horse he has trained for many years to a very high level based on your dedication towards the training of the horse belonging to your girlfriend? not sure if I have missed something but I have no idea how he can estimate your ability as a rider or even as a potential owner when you have very little idea of handling a stallion, you have not ridden any horse for years, have nowhere of your own to keep it, the livery yard may be top class but it is not your home so things could change or it may not be so ideal once the horse moves in, far too many variables that would make me think twice about selling you any horse let alone one I was so invested in.
		
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This. Something does not add up!


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## ester (23 October 2019)

EKW said:



			My theory on the breeder thing - if you gf is competing well on a PRE he may see an opportunity to get his bloodlines into Britain and be seen. He probably has siblings to this particular horse and by doing a deal to another country -  hoping that either yourself or your gf get the horse out competing doing something to be seen in effect his stud is being seen. It may generate more sales or breeding prospects. Basically he may be using you as a bit of a shop window. No harm in it if he has faith in you and the horse not to screw it all up and make him and his bloodlines look like idiots.

Either that or he is hoping to scam you out of your money and run off into the sunset! It's not unheard of!
		
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The horse for sale isn't a PRE, it's a lippi.


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## HedgePig (23 October 2019)

EKW said:



			My theory on the breeder thing - if you gf is competing well on a PRE he may see an opportunity to get his bloodlines into Britain and be seen. He probably has siblings to this particular horse and by doing a deal to another country -  hoping that either yourself or your gf get the horse out competing doing something to be seen in effect his stud is being seen. It may generate more sales or breeding prospects. Basically he may be using you as a bit of a shop window. No harm in it if he has faith in you and the horse not to screw it all up and make him and his bloodlines look like idiots.

Either that or he is hoping to scam you out of your money and run off into the sunset! It's not unheard of!
		
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It doesn't help to blow ones own trumpet. Particularly when itâ€™s not my trumpet Iâ€™m blowing. Yes, my gf certainly is the brains here and I have no doubt were it not for her as a component of all this it would not be a thing. 

I must admit it has suddenly taken on a more sinister tone for some reason and Iâ€™m trying to determine if itâ€™s just me or something more. I havenâ€™t been asked to fly to Cyprus with uncut diamonds. 
We are not novices. We are already a PRE â€˜familyâ€™ if you will and I have been absolutely clear I have taken the offer (nothing has been concluded, I havenâ€™t even met the horse!) as an opportunity I was not expecting. Others seem to suggest this must mean thereâ€™s something wrong with me. Or him. Or the horse. I guess this is a risk when you admit you are poorly informed. You get more than you anticipated. 

In summary I have clearly got more homework to do. Iâ€™m already wanting a horse and this is certainly a horse. I have my doubts if this is the right horse for me but itâ€™s cruel to speculate as to the intent of the parties based on the little information I have.

Though I hear Cyprus is lovely this time of year?


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## Amymay (23 October 2019)

Apologies OP. Iâ€™ve just re-read your original post and see youâ€™ve been offered the horse.

So, I wish you luck.


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## HedgePig (23 October 2019)

be positive said:



			It does all seem a bit odd, he has never seen you ride yet is offering you this horse he has trained for many years to a very high level based on your dedication towards the training of the horse belonging to your girlfriend? not sure if I have missed something but I have no idea how he can estimate your ability as a rider or even as a potential owner when you have very little idea of handling a stallion, you have not ridden any horse for years, have nowhere of your own to keep it, the livery yard may be top class but it is not your home so things could change or it may not be so ideal once the horse moves in, far too many variables that would make me think twice about selling you any horse let alone one I was so invested in.
		
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Without you having been sitting at the table when it came up, it would be hard for me to disagree with you.
Other than itâ€™s a pity you appear determined to frame all of this as sinister. 
No deal has been done. He knows I want a horse and he has suggested I look at his. 
I am flattered by the opportunity and was hoping for objectivity, which appears to be thinning...

I remain grateful for your take on all this, ill certainly be better positioned should I get to meet the horse this weekend.


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## HedgePig (23 October 2019)

Bellaboo18 said:



			Personally unless I had my own land and facilities I just wouldn't have a stallion. Most livery yards just aren't set up for them and I'd be very concerned if everything a yard promised fell through I'd be left with very few options of places to move to...
Sorry not your question but, the idea of not riding for 20 years and then buying a flashy stallion as a ridden horse seems bonkers to me!
		
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And bonkers to me. So I thought Iâ€™d turn to a community for opinion and I have certainly had some. 

Iâ€™m excited about meeting him this weekend where Iâ€™ll probably have some more information. Iâ€™m some way from making any kind of commitment.


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## be positive (23 October 2019)

You said ' he would like you to take ownership' of his stallion that is not a suggestion you look at it or even go and ride it but reads like a nearly done deal, I realise he may not be English so the interpretation may be slightly different to the real meaning, I would be able to understand it more if he had been helping you look for a horse, taken you to try a few and, like many of us are when looking, become disillusioned with what is available on the market thinking it could be a viable option to suit you both. 
I don't think it is sinister but it is definitely an unusual situation.


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## HedgePig (23 October 2019)

be positive said:



			You said ' he would like you to take ownership' of his stallion that is not a suggestion you look at it or even go and ride it but reads like a nearly done deal, I realise he may not be English so the interpretation may be slightly different to the real meaning, I would be able to understand it more if he had been helping you look for a horse, taken you to try a few and, like many of us are when looking, become disillusioned with what is available on the market thinking it could be a viable option to suit you both.
I don't think it is sinister but it is definitely an unusual situation.
		
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I apologise if a single line in my rather lengthy post has caused you to misunderstand. 

Nothing has been concluded. No offer has been made nor accepted. Amongst other things we spoke about a year long agreement for training, for both my gf and myself. It was probably clear to him where it has not been to you that I will be taking my horse ownership seriously. With a serious training program. Along with the commensurate investment. 

Your speculation beyond that is frankly mildly offensive. I asked for opinions on owning a stallion, not for a keyboard length assessment of my suitably to discuss the ownership of his horse, nor the ability of the several parties involved. 

Iâ€™d always despaired at the cattiness of some horsey folks and you certainly have not disappointed. 

Iâ€™ll thank you one last time for your obvious cynicism about it all, ask politely that you stay in your lane in dispensing a wider analysis on both me and my gf and our proficiency and Iâ€™ll wish you nothing but the best for your chosen path of horse ownership. Thank you. Hedge.


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## milliepops (23 October 2019)

I know you're a new member, OP but be positive is a very level headed experienced person and I very much doubt there was any cattiness intended.  It does seem like a highly unusual situation to say the least hence the kinds of replies you're receiving.
Perhaps start a new thread when you've ridden the horse and know more of the details?


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## Amymay (23 October 2019)

Hedgepig, I can understand your frustration that this post is not, perhaps, going the way youâ€™d hoped.    But, if you stick around the forum youâ€™ll soon find out that BePositive is the least â€˜cattyâ€™ member youâ€™ll ever come across.  Their posts are always considered, helpful and come from a position of experience.


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## ester (23 October 2019)

blimey! that was reactive


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## HedgePig (23 October 2019)

milliepops said:



			I know you're a new member, OP but be positive is a very level headed experienced person and I very much doubt there was any cattiness intended.  It does seem like a highly unusual situation to say the least hence the kinds of replies you're receiving.
Perhaps start a new thread when you've ridden the horse and know more of the details?
		
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Iâ€™m just startled how this has gone from a sincere, legitimate appeal to a community for opinion on owning a stallion and itâ€™s devolved into something fishy because some folks werenâ€™t seated with us at the table when it went to a â€˜you might be really good for my horse why donâ€™t you come and meet him sometime?â€™

Itâ€™s hard to be nuanced by text. I have been working hard to accept any obvious issues some may have but I certainly didnâ€™t sign up to be told Iâ€™m not worthy of a particular horse and if itâ€™s a serious offer it must be something devious.

Iâ€™m just trying to find a horse to love and turn into something special. The question was about stallions. Iâ€™m certainly not comfortable where this has ended. But I appreciate your steady response and will work to take it on board.


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## Tiddlypom (23 October 2019)

ester said:



			blimey! that was reactive
		
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Part of a plan, I think.


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## be positive (23 October 2019)

I am well aware people can and do take a long term view and commit to a proper training programme, I have had clients do very much the same but the horses are usually based with me for the duration and I usually have a good idea of their capabilities before I help them find a horse.
My most recent client has PRE's  and we have spent the last 6 months on a training plan which this evening proved how far we have come when the young mare jumped 2 super clears on her second outing, it has been a tough few months for her rider who has had a lot to learn but the time and effort is paying dividends now, if only more owners were as committed as you seem to be.


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## be positive (23 October 2019)

ester said:



			blimey! that was reactive
		
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He may have seen my recent thread about liveries


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## HedgePig (23 October 2019)

amymay said:



			Hedgepig, I can understand your frustration that this post is not, perhaps, going the way youâ€™d hoped.    But, if you stick around the forum youâ€™ll soon find out that BePositive is the least â€˜cattyâ€™ member youâ€™ll ever come across.  Their posts are always considered, helpful and come from a position of experience.
		
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I have found everyone to be polite, considered and helpful. Itâ€™s unusual for a number of reasons, some of which I donâ€™t have the answers to yet but Iâ€™m a willing student and am excited about finding out more.

I guess bp has chosen to take a strong somewhat judgemental position on this and itâ€™s a pity.
Thank you for taking the trouble to reply. I should know more as we go on.


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## ycbm (23 October 2019)

HedgePig said:



			Iâ€™m just trying to find a horse to love and turn into something special.
		
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The horse is already special, it has been trained right up to capriole, the very highest of the high school arts.

It is extremely difficult to envisage a situation where anyone would offer to sell this horse at a fraction of its market value to someone who hasn't ridden for twenty years, or where someone who hasn't ridden for twenty years and wants a first horse would pay anywhere near its full value.

If you don't understand that that is going to raise questions, then life on an unmoderated forum where you can't control responses may not be for you.

Your thread reminds me very much of a non rider who was intent on getting a racing stables to allow him to learn on a racehorse in training.  We never did find out how that ended. I hope you will keep us updated?

.


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## HedgePig (23 October 2019)

ycbm said:



			The horse is already special, it has been trained right up to capriole, the very highest of the high school arts.

It is extremely difficult to envisage a situation where anyone would offer to sell this horse at a fraction of its market value to someone who hasn't ridden for twenty years, or where someone who hasn't ridden for twenty years and wants a first horse to pay anywhere near its full value.

If you don't understand that that is going to raise questions, then life on an unmoderated forum where you can't control responses may not be for you.

Your thread reminds me very much of a non rider who was intent on getting a racing stables to allow him to learn on a racehorse in training.  We never did find out how that ended. I hope you will keep us updated?

.
		
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At the risk of repeating myself the framework for any such trade has several components. Being a public forum as you agree I didnâ€™t feel it would be appropriate to go over the numbers with strangers. I think Iâ€™m being offered a good opportunity. It may turn out Iâ€™m being ripped off. 

For now I was hoping to get some more information on owning a stallion. 

The longer I spend here the more I am convinced it was a terrible idea. I would be happy to keep anyone and everyone involved with progress but given this first run at a forum youâ€™ll accept my caution.

Thank you though for taking the time to follow and reply to this thread. I have read it and reread it today with my gf and Iâ€™ll be leaving better informed than when I arrived. Again thank you.


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## tda (23 October 2019)

Just add my two pennies worth, I got a native pony stallion on loan this year, for breeding purposes, he is a near perfect gent and has been as well behaved as I was told he would be. However,  we have our own place, which has caused a lot of extra fencing as we also have mares.  And more fencing as my neighbour breeds Welsh ponies ðŸ˜ 
My point is he is happy and so am I in this controlled environment.  There is no way I would keep him on a livery yard, it's not just you and the owners it's everybody else ðŸ™„ please read all the posts about livery yard issues,  it's a jungle out there!
Hope you get to ride him soon to see if you are a match x


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## Leo Walker (23 October 2019)

You seem to be taking what you want from posts and replying with lengthy wordy replies, but blatantly ignoring the main points.

Keeping a stallion on a livery yard is beyond difficult. I am stunned that you managed to ring up, find a yard that takes stallions AND has a space available all in a couple of hours. The one person I know stupid enough to try and keep a stallion on livery struggles massively. Yards dont want the extra hassle involved.

There is no need to keep this horse entire. You seem to have some weird romanticised notion of what this horse will be. Its just a horse thats has some schooling. It may indeed carry outstanding and rare blood lines, but I cant imagine there is any call for them given there are only 250 pure and part bred lippizaners in total in the UK. If they are highly desirable then collect semen and then geld.

And whether you like it or not this situation is fishy. In fact its downright unbelievable.

A very experienced trainer with a much loved and precious horse who he has invested huge amounts of time and effort in likes you so much has chosen you to buy it, even though it wasnt for sale.

Hes turned down other homes, but decided your home, which doesnt even exist as of yet and may never exist due to the aforementioned livery yard issue, is so perfect, and you are such an absolutely perfect match for this horse, even though he has no idea if you can even ride, and this is all because you get on really well. 

I get on really well with lots of people. I wouldnt sell them my horse though. I certainly wouldnt do it having never seen them ride or handle a horse. You havent ridden for 20yrs, which would mean I wouldnt even consider you for my bombproof safe little cob I'm afraid, never mind a highly schooled stallion

This just doesnt ring true.


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## Lammy (23 October 2019)

Firstly I would like to say that I have read this whole thread and your tone, HedgePig, comes across as pretty patronising. All anyone has tried to do is offer their opinion on the situation which is what you asked for in your opening post?

â€œThe owner, however, has turned down offers over the years to buy him and is clear he believes I am right for his horse and he is currently not being used to his potential and that I will help him realise it. He believes this which compelled him to ask me.â€

Iâ€™m struggling to get my head around why a veteran of the Vienna school would think it would be a good idea to sell his very highly trained horse to a person who hasnâ€™t ridden in 20 years. Someone he hasnâ€™t seen ride and has no verification of their riding ability? Were you a top international rider before you stopped riding? 
This horse is one that has received the highest classical training and yet needs a rider to come out of a 20 year break to help it realise its potential? 

At the very least it sounds like a scam, sorry.


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## dree (23 October 2019)

HP,for what it's worth, I can only repeat what I wrote before.  I honestly see no difference in riding a very well-trained stallion to any other horse.......presuming that he has good manners, and you are confident enough to match those manners, and not allow them to slip.  (As they can do with any horse, but especially a strong, confident horse.  Horses are always trying to climb up the ladder, and possibly stallions more than geldings and mares.)  But, to be honest, one of the worst mannered horses I ever came across was a gelding which would go for anyone who went in it's stable.  I have had dealings with a lot of horses, and, sadly, most of them were kept in a stable most of the time.  If you have found the right yard, then you don't have a problem keeping him as a stallion.  But you do need to get over your pre-conceived idea that all stallions are too much for most people to ride.  (I regularly rode a stallion.) If broken in with kindness, you will have a kind horse.  I think it will all depend on what you feel for/about the horse after you have ridden him.  And don't underestimate your own ability.  Well-trained horses are usually a dream to ride, so long as they are ridden with confidence and kindness.  They tend to react to the smallest touch of leg and hands.....you might find this disconcerting.....you might find it wonderful.  I certainly, if I was about 40 years younger!! (before a riding accident ended my career with horses) would jump at the chance.  The horse in my avatar was an ott TB.....I hadn't ridden properly in about 10 years when I bought him.....he dropped me the first day, and the second (not his fault) and after that, I gradually found the core I had lost and we became a team.  I hope you have fun on him at the weekend.  Enjoy!!  (Even if you back out.)      And, yes, the offer for you to have the horse after not riding for 20 years sounds a bit iffy.  But I hadn't ridden for 10 years and it was probably bloody obvious to those who saw me test ride a few horses.  (I had to use a riding block.....legs not strong enough to mount from the ground.)  But they allowed me to try their horses, and in the end I bought the one horse that looked (to others) to be the worst for me.  But I followed my gut feeling that this ott TB which couldn't walk anywhere (took me a year to teach him to walk and not jog) was an honest horse who'd been treated....not badly as such, but not right.....and it was a decision which saved my soul. xx


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## HedgePig (23 October 2019)

Leo Walker said:



			You seem to be taking what you want from posts and replying with lengthy wordy replies, but blatantly ignoring the main points.

Keeping a stallion on a livery yard is beyond difficult. I am stunned that you managed to ring up, find a yard that takes stallions AND has a space available all in a couple of hours. The one person I know stupid enough to try and keep a stallion on livery struggles massively. Yards dont want the extra hassle involved.

There is no need to keep this horse entire. You seem to have some weird romanticised notion of what this horse will be. Its just a horse thats has some schooling. It may indeed carry outstanding and rare blood lines, but I cant imagine there is any call for them given there are only 250 pure and part bred lippizaners in total in the UK. If they are highly desirable then collect semen and then geld.

And whether you like it or not this situation is fishy. In fact its downright unbelievable.

A very experienced trainer with a much loved and precious horse who he has invested huge amounts of time and effort in likes you so much has chosen you to buy it, even though it wasnt for sale.

Hes turned down other homes, but decided your home, which doesnt even exist as of yet and may never exist due to the aforementioned livery yard issue, is so perfect, and you are such an absolutely perfect match for this horse, even though he has no idea if you can even ride, and this is all because you get on really well.

I get on really well with lots of people. I wouldnt sell them my horse though. I certainly wouldnt do it having never seen them ride or handle a horse.

This just doesnt ring true.
		
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Hi Leo and yes youâ€™re right. A lot of this has been a series of posts speculating wildly on things I have not said and have subsequently been repeated as fact. 

This is simply not true. 

I didnâ€™t think it was necessary to get into the nuts and bolts of it because my question was about owning a stallion. 
Now itâ€™s a pretty spectacular pile on but Iâ€™m not so fragile that Iâ€™m going to rush off and spend a huge amount of money to give clarity.

Iâ€™m sorry if you are finding it hard to believe. I did pick up the phone and speak with a yard who knows the horse who agreed to look at taking it. Which is exactly what I said. Iâ€™m struggling to see any upside for me being in here and making it up when the abuse appears to be cranking up rather than going away. Iâ€™m telling you I phoned a yard and they said they would consider taking a stallion. If I happen to just have been brutally lucky with my call then why canâ€™t this be seen as a positive by you?

Youâ€™re right though. Iâ€™m hopelessly poorly informed here, spectacularly out of my depth and this has all been a rather poor judgement of mine. 

Thank you for your troubling to read and reply to this thread. Hedge.


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## Fabled Thoroughbred (23 October 2019)

I think this could be a scam. Iâ€™d suggest you have some a trainer/neutral equestrian friend come with you for a look at the horse.

However in regards to the horseâ€™s gender, I firmly believe that ANY horse can be temperamental, mare, stallion, gelding, colt, filly.... it depends on handling, much like a dog. Now I think they need proper handling, but enforcing fear only makes the issue worse when around the stallion, as theyâ€™d react. I donâ€™t know where youâ€™re located p, but you could consider looking for â€œclassesâ€ to handle stallions. Iâ€™ve heard some nice things about Spanish studs. I wish you luckðŸ˜€ðŸ˜€!!


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## HedgePig (23 October 2019)

Lammy said:



			Firstly I would like to say that I have read this whole thread and your tone, HedgePig, comes across as pretty patronising. All anyone has tried to do is offer their opinion on the situation which is what you asked for in your opening post?

â€œThe owner, however, has turned down offers over the years to buy him and is clear he believes I am right for his horse and he is currently not being used to his potential and that I will help him realise it. He believes this which compelled him to ask me.â€

Iâ€™m struggling to get my head around why a veteran of the Vienna school would think it would be a good idea to sell his very highly trained horse to a person who hasnâ€™t ridden in 20 years. Someone he hasnâ€™t seen ride and has no verification of their riding ability? Were you a top international rider before you stopped riding?
This horse is one that has received the highest classical training and yet needs a rider to come out of a 20 year break to help it realise its potential?

At the very least it sounds like a scam, sorry.
		
Click to expand...

When you write it like that it sounds awful. Youâ€™re right. But itâ€™s inconsistent with how this has developed and it seems to have turned into something it is not.

I have admitted Iâ€™m out of my depth and not well informed. I asked about stallions and I tried to paint a picture of how I see it, as a privilege and itâ€™s been taken as some kind of myth. I am truly sorry for how this has gone I donâ€™t know you but Iâ€™m defending myself from you for reasons Iâ€™m not clear on.
If it is a scam I have been warned off it. Thank you. Hedge.

edit: The owner did say he has had offers and that he had turned them down. I did not feel it was appropriate to ask what the offers were nor why he had chosen to do so. They may have been riders he knew to be cruel. They may have been stupid lowballs. Yet my repeating only what he said is twisted to mean something it is not. Iâ€™m honestly sorry this is how this has gone.


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## dree (23 October 2019)

It does seem odd that this horse has been offered to you when you haven't ridden for 20 years.  But we don't know you, or the nuances of the agreement.  I was told never to ride again because a fall could kill me.  I fell off quite a few times, and wasn't killed.  (And the falls weren't the horses fault.)  If you are confident that you can handle a stallion then I don't see why not....if you have the right set-up at the livery yard, because he can't be kept in all the time.  Please let us know how you get on at the weekend.


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## be positive (23 October 2019)

If you had posted a short thread asking some basic questions about the logistics of keeping a stallion on a livery yard without all the unnecessary background, details about the trainer, the horse, your girlfriend, about pre's when this horse is a lippi etc you would have had more simple replies most of which would have said it may be hard to find a good yard that will offer a stallion a decent life with safe enough turn out and that if you do not have your own premises gelding it may be a kinder and easier option for you both.

As it is you wrote one of the longest first threads I have ever seen, most of which was barely relevant, almost immediately found livery for him and then became offended when questioned as some of us felt the story didn't ring true, all of the replies were meant well, we are generally helpful but are also used to reading about tales of woe where people are scammed so can be a bit cynical at times, I hope it is genuine, that he is the horse for you and you find a decent livery yard where he can lead a nice life as a horse should, stallion or otherwise.


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## HedgePig (23 October 2019)

dree said:



			It does seem odd that this horse has been offered to you when you haven't ridden for 20 years.  But we don't know you, or the nuances of the agreement.  I was told never to ride again because a fall could kill me.  I fell off quite a few times, and wasn't killed.  (And the falls weren't the horses fault.)  If you are confident that you can handle a stallion then I don't see why not....if you have the right set-up at the livery yard, because he can't be kept in all the time.  Please let us know how you get on at the weekend.
		
Click to expand...

Dree thank you. This has been made out to be some dark corridor deal when it couldnâ€™t be further from the truth. We have known each other a long time and I must have said 15 times that there is already a very experienced rider in the family who the owner knows well. I donâ€™t come on my own I have an experienced rider in my team who owns her own horse and has been riding since the age of 6 or something. The owner knows this but itâ€™s been lost in the speculation. 
Yet there is this weird obsession with the last time I rode somehow counting for everything. 

Iâ€™m excited about meeting him. I have taken the expertise of others in here on board as much as I can where the bottom line feels like: if youâ€™re having to rely on a livery in this that is a mistake. Which pretty much kills the idea dead in the water. 

Thank you for your kindness and willingness to accept Iâ€™m trying to be as honest as I can based on a very initial discussion. Hedge.


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## HedgePig (23 October 2019)

be positive said:



			If you had posted a short thread asking some basic questions about the logistics of keeping a stallion on a livery yard without all the unnecessary background, details about the trainer, the horse, your girlfriend, about pre's when this horse is a lippi etc you would have had more simple replies most of which would have said it may be hard to find a good yard that will offer a stallion a decent life with safe enough turn out and that if you do not have your own premises gelding it may be a kinder and easier option for you both.

As it is you wrote one of the longest first threads I have ever seen, most of which was barely relevant, almost immediately found livery for him and then became offended when questioned as some of us felt the story didn't ring true, all of the replies were meant well, we are generally helpful but are also used to reading about tales of woe where people are scammed so can be a bit cynical at times, I hope it is genuine, that he is the horse for you and you find a decent livery yard where he can lead a nice life as a horse should, stallion or otherwise.
		
Click to expand...

Thatâ€™s gracious of you and very much appreciated bp. 
I have tried to set out my circumstances as best I can, but for some reason small inconsistencies have been amplified to mean something they are not. Is actually a very great pity as Iâ€™ve been left a little shocked. 
But Iâ€™m also a big boy and quite willing to lock horns (as you have seen) so if you have become the unwilling opposite for my frustration at being misrepresented then I actually do apologise.
Thank you for your replies. I suggest Iâ€™m going to leave this thread, itâ€™s done very little to help me understand the potential risks and I am sorry for how it has evidently upset you and others. Hedge.


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## be positive (23 October 2019)

It has not upset anyone as far as I can see, certainly not me, it has explained the main risk of owning a stallion repeatedly, number one finding the right yard, there are not really any other risks, a stallion is a horse and there are risks with all horses which are much the same whatever the sex, being treated properly, living in the right environment are the main criteria for all.
I am not sure what other risks you perceive that are requiring answers that have not been fully covered, you can investigate breeding from him, it has already explained that he can go and have semen collected at a properly equipped facility, natural covering is not really an option unless he goes away for the breeding season or the yard you livery at has a suitable set up for visiting mares, most will not be able to cater for this and you would need to give serious consideration as to whether it is viable for what would be your riding horse.


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## Crazy_cat_lady (23 October 2019)

I think the least you can do is go and meet the horse and ride him Sunday. Ensure you take someone with you who is experienced, you said your gf has lessons could you take her instructor?

Have them ride the horse and if they feel he's safe have a ride yourself (could you ride something before you go see him to get back into the swing of it) it may feel like you're sat on a ticking time bomb and you dont feel safe and so dont pursue further so everything else is irrelevant but nothing to be lost by looking

If this guy is so desperate for you to have him, he should be understanding about you going back a couple of times- test the horse in different situations

Make sure you visit the livery yard you've spoken to on the phone and confirm, if possible backed up by something in writing they are definitely prepared to have him and what their plans are for his management eg turn out etc. Be prepared to pay a deposit to secure his place especially if you've had a couple of viewings and still want him

IF you decide to proceed, based on people on here raising the scam possibility, as this isn't a typical sale I'd want a full contract in place- if you're having lessons with this guy to "pay" for the horse at what point does he become yours? What if it's at the end of the lesson period who is responsible for anything that happens to the horse during that time eg will he be on full loan to you or will he be "yours" from day 1? What if you dont like or agree with the guy's teaching methods? What if you want to collect and store semen of the horse will this be yours to sell as you want? What if you want to geld him? Obviously if he is yours from day 1 you can do what you like but I dont know if the lesson thing will count as a sale you may have to pay Â£1 as a token and get a receipt, obviously you may be paying a deposit say then using the lessons to pay off the "mortgage" rather than just having the lessons pay for him. I would definitely get everything in writing then perhaps seek legal advice just to check everything is in place- pretty sure people on here have said BHS gold members get free legal advice but stand to be corrected?

I would still have the horse vetted if I chose to go ahead as once he's yours you're the one stuck with the cost of any issues down the line. Get bloods done.

However none of this is relevant if you go try the horse and dont like him. That is your first step.

I wonder if he is infertile or has a degenerative condition which may be why he's suddenly not of as much value to a breeder so he's trying to rehome him

I'd be interested to know how Sunday goes like others have said


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## Amymay (23 October 2019)

Did I miss something - lessons to pay for the horse?


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## Queenbee (23 October 2019)

@HedgePig

My last post was as level as could be... setting aside many pre-conceived notions and judgements I made in the light of your first few posts and I hope that you will continue to perceive this in the same light albeit with the taking into account of subsequent posts, it is intended as such. 

When you come on a forum and as a simple question 'stallion's yes or no' you will undoubtedly get a yes or no answer, but placing a context around it as you have and a fairly detailed one at that, as you have expanded on detail, people are want to expand on their answers, views and advice. 

The simple facts are that there are so many variables that from your circumstance a) do not lend favorably to your owning a stallion and b) ring significantly loud alarm bells when considering the sale of this horse. Neither of these things mean that you would not be a perfect match but I would be taking huge caution. 

It is also true that a lot of scams are perpetuated in this manner, I never realised you were to go to Cyprus to  visit the sellers yard or meet the horse.  Again, caution should be maintained here.  No matter how much you and your GF believe in the integrity of this seller, the horse would be coming from another country (no come back) apparently being sold for significantly less than its potential market value (alarm bells), yes you have been told that this individual has turned down many offers but has he really? Scamming is an art form and they manage it because they spin a completely believable yarn.  This person may or may not be a scammer, but I will say this, I know of no one that would sell to someone who had never ridden this type of horse, with this type and level of training to someone they had not seen ride or who had not ridden for 20 years.  I hear and note that you have said it was a 'you may be suitable for my horse, why not come see and try' comment, but again... why the incredibly low market value. Don't get me wrong, I have bought some incredibly low market value horses and turned them into gems, worth more than their market value in temperament and in some cases talent, but unless I have specific details on why this horse is being offered for a steal... I do smell a fish and steer well clear.  To put into context, my friesian tb... 1k to buy, a total headcase and unschooled but with bags of scope and potential.. I never sold her but could have after a few years... everyone knew her, her looks her movement her talent. An ex polo Argentinian tb, stunning moves, would need work, full MOT and re-schooling, would have cut the perfect pose on the show circuit and made a mint... I got offered it for Â£500.  A beautiful appy x welsh c x quarter horse for Â£1 because I refused to work with her and put my life in danger unless I owned her , pure danger and malice to ride... now the perfect trail horse, xc horse and stock horse.... would have sold for 3.5k at least once her issues were addressed.  Not one of these sellers asked full price and everyone admitted to their many problems and reasons for the very reduced price. Lessons or no, this does seem difficult to wrap one's head around and I would be VERY cautious no matter how sincere you believe this offer to be or how much it has developed over time.  

I go back to the topic of scams for a second and will just mention this, there are a fair few that originate from Cyprus, many videos and pictures posted of horses for sale, with bloodlines and training to die for, many that turn out to be pictures of other horses of the same colour and breed but not the same horse... sold under pretense to people in love with the breed. Even when the horse is not being sold under false pretense it is easy to get carried away with the fairytale.  I was working on an Egyptian Arab stud, they YO's wife was in love with the idea of a TB, we went to see a TB who had failed at racing, well barely even tried he was so bad, he had already had keyhole surgery for colic, we went to view - her, myself and her father... she rode this horse around the block... his training ride, the agreement was look don't pay.  She immediately handed over a cheque for 3.5k over 10 years ago despite our trying to talk her out of it.  She purchased a horse who would not leave the yard because it didn't know where it was going and died 2 months later from colic.... just be cautious and leave your fairytail and whimsy at the door.

Also, it is one thing for a yard to say they would 'consider' a stallion, but what exactly would that entail?  For a start, consider is entirely different terminology to welcome, and offers no context as to what that board would be like.  Personally, I do agree that I would never want to keep a stallion on livery in the UK but if it came to that I would want to know that the livery was appropriate and know also that there were back-up solutions in place if it didn't work out as planned.  All it takes is one hop-skip-and-a-jump over the fence and your boy would be out or confined to stable. 

Again I see no  need in the slightest to keep him entire... you have no plan on breeding, keeping entire in the UK restricts you in where you can keep him and him in his life on a livery yard.  If you do buy him, you are not obliged to keep him entire.  Look at my profile pic... The Beast is my everything, If you are from a racing background you will know Secretariat, on his sires side through his grand-dam he has Bold Ruler and Hasty Matilda in his bloodlines, his grandsire produced an olympic eventing horse, The beast has an excellent temperament and is certainly a talented horse, he is never going to be a grand prix showjumper or win at HOYS but he is well bred, well put together, cuts a nice outline and jumps like a daemon... BUT, his sire is producing wonderful progeny and he was never purchased to breed, I have owned him from 6 months old and he was cut at 2yrs, keeping him entire or not was my choice as an owner, but a no brainer... I was never going to breed him.  The question of why this horse is entire currently has far more to do with where he is as opposed to his breeding or training, the culture is just different in Cyprus as is the general approach when dealing with Lipz and Pre's on the continent. 

I go back to my original post and indeed the initial paragraph of this post, you came on here asking a question, but with the embellishment of your OP (I urge you to re-read it from the perspective of someone being asked for advice and not from the perspective of asking) you asked 'this is my history, these are the circumstances.... stallion yes or no'.  I would even go so far to say that someone asking a simple and plain 'stallion yes or no' question would be faced with a lot of posts on here asking for the wider context with people explaining that they could not make such a simple judgement without knowing the wider circumstance, to do so and not place the response in context would be irresponsible.  In all honesty, I have seen only comprehensive, in-context and well thought and experienced answers to your question on here. 

Finally, You are from a racing background you explained. Well, there are a fair amount of entire colts/stallions in that sphere and having mixed in those circuits before, I have seen some monsters but also many very content and well behaved males of the entire nature.  As you should already know it is all in the management and handling.  Those that have potential  and prove it are kept entire, those that don't are eventually cut, the few that make it through the net uncut who were thought to have potential but go on to other lives are cut.  There are very few truly nasty stallions who have not been created, however this country is not truly built for the accommodation of stallions in livery yards... I see no genuine reason to keep a horse that way unless it is being kept by a true and dedicate breeder.  But then, as someone who has worked with stallions in the racing industry before I struggle slightly to understand why you are asking about the management of them since this is something that is familiar to you.


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## HedgePig (24 October 2019)

Crazy_cat_lady said:



			I think the least you can do is go and meet the horse and ride him Sunday. Ensure you take someone with you who is experienced, you said your gf has lessons could you take her instructor?

Have them ride the horse and if they feel he's safe have a ride yourself (could you ride something before you go see him to get back into the swing of it) it may feel like you're sat on a ticking time bomb and you dont feel safe and so dont pursue further so everything else is irrelevant but nothing to be lost by looking

If this guy is so desperate for you to have him, he should be understanding about you going back a couple of times- test the horse in different situations

Make sure you visit the livery yard you've spoken to on the phone and confirm, if possible backed up by something in writing they are definitely prepared to have him and what their plans are for his management eg turn out etc. Be prepared to pay a deposit to secure his place especially if you've had a couple of viewings and still want him

IF you decide to proceed, based on people on here raising the scam possibility, as this isn't a typical sale I'd want a full contract in place- if you're having lessons with this guy to "pay" for the horse at what point does he become yours? What if it's at the end of the lesson period who is responsible for anything that happens to the horse during that time eg will he be on full loan to you or will he be "yours" from day 1? What if you dont like or agree with the guy's teaching methods? What if you want to collect and store semen of the horse will this be yours to sell as you want? What if you want to geld him? Obviously if he is yours from day 1 you can do what you like but I dont know if the lesson thing will count as a sale you may have to pay Â£1 as a token and get a receipt, obviously you may be paying a deposit say then using the lessons to pay off the "mortgage" rather than just having the lessons pay for him. I would definitely get everything in writing then perhaps seek legal advice just to check everything is in place- pretty sure people on here have said BHS gold members get free legal advice but stand to be corrected?

I would still have the horse vetted if I chose to go ahead as once he's yours you're the one stuck with the cost of any issues down the line. Get bloods done.

However none of this is relevant if you go try the horse and dont like him. That is your first step.

I wonder if he is infertile or has a degenerative condition which may be why he's suddenly not of as much value to a breeder so he's trying to rehome him

I'd be interested to know how Sunday goes like others have said
		
Click to expand...

Hi CCL and thanks for your reply.

The owner IS my gf instructor. 
This is why I know he knows us and the type of riders we have in the family. A quick other point he is absolutely not desperate to sell him to me, he suggested it might be a good fit given he knows my gf well, knows how experienced she is and to some extent knows me.
Your other points are excellent. Iâ€™ve only just today spoken to the yard, not the yard owner. We have ridden there a few times but I have a lot more to do before I feel comfortable that a livery deal has been done.

Iâ€™ll try to explain how it came about in more detail so it doesnâ€™t sound like itâ€™s been portrayed by others:
Iâ€™ve known him and his horse for a long time. He has been teaching my gf for a good while so knows she is competent and safe.
I asked him some time ago to look out for a horse for me. His horse was never an option. The last time we met for a beer we were chatting about horses and about a longer term training program for my partner. All perfectly normal. It was then that I said it might make sense to agree a retainer or something that included my training when I found a suitable horse. A few hours went by and he suggested me and my gf might be a good fit for his horse. And that I should meet him. We touched on price (people seem to have taken it that heâ€™s a bargain?) when I might think think heâ€™s worth 100,000 and we spoke about 50,000. It wasnâ€™t these numbers but you get the idea? Then we chatted about the training costs and thatâ€™s where we left it.

Now understand in my mind this all makes sense. A surprise for sure but no red lights. 
My question was about the suitability of a stallion. And Iâ€™ve been put off it by the replies in here. 
I would certainly do exactly as you have said and get it legally clear. Have a vet involved and ensure there is nothing hidden. All quite normal to do.
Whatâ€™s unusual is just the stallion bit.

He may be an antisocial nutter. But for the moment it doesnâ€™t really matter as Iâ€™ve dropped to 30% odds on following through. 

Iâ€™ll be happy to dm you in person once Iâ€™ve met him if you like? In the meantime Iâ€™ve asked the mods to remove this thread. Itâ€™s all a bit unpleasant and Iâ€™ve been made out to be a liar for things like finding a livery when thatâ€™s what actually happened,  which isnâ€™t fair. Thanks again.


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## HedgePig (24 October 2019)

Prancer & Vixen/Grinch said:



@HedgePig

My last post was as level as could be... setting aside many pre-conceived notions and judgements I made in the light of your first few posts and I hope that you will continue to perceive this in the same light albeit with the taking into account of subsequent posts, it is intended as such.

When you come on a forum and as a simple question 'stallion's yes or no' you will undoubtedly get a yes or no answer, but placing a context around it as you have and a fairly detailed one at that, as you have expanded on detail, people are want to expand on their answers, views and advice.

The simple facts are that there are so many variables that from your circumstance a) do not lend favorably to your owning a stallion and b) ring significantly loud alarm bells when considering the sale of this horse. Neither of these things mean that you would not be a perfect match but I would be taking huge caution.

It is also true that a lot of scams are perpetuated in this manner, I never realised you were to go to Cyprus to  visit the sellers yard or meet the horse.  Again, caution should be maintained here.  No matter how much you and your GF believe in the integrity of this seller, the horse would be coming from another country (no come back) apparently being sold for significantly less than its potential market value (alarm bells), yes you have been told that this individual has turned down many offers but has he really? Scamming is an art form and they manage it because they spin a completely believable yarn.  This person may or may not be a scammer, but I will say this, I know of no one that would sell to someone who had never ridden this type of horse, with this type and level of training to someone they had not seen ride or who had not ridden for 20 years.  I hear and note that you have said it was a 'you may be suitable for my horse, why not come see and try' comment, but again... why the incredibly low market value. Don't get me wrong, I have bought some incredibly low market value horses and turned them into gems, worth more than their market value in temperament and in some cases talent, but unless I have specific details on why this horse is being offered for a steal... I do smell a fish and steer well clear.  To put into context, my friesian tb... 1k to buy, a total headcase and unschooled but with bags of scope and potential.. I never sold her but could have after a few years... everyone knew her, her looks her movement her talent. An ex polo Argentinian tb, stunning moves, would need work, full MOT and re-schooling, would have cut the perfect pose on the show circuit and made a mint... I got offered it for Â£500.  A beautiful appy x welsh c x quarter horse for Â£1 because I refused to work with her and put my life in danger unless I owned her , pure danger and malice to ride... now the perfect trail horse, xc horse and stock horse.... would have sold for 3.5k at least once her issues were addressed.  Not one of these sellers asked full price and everyone admitted to their many problems and reasons for the very reduced price. Lessons or no, this does seem difficult to wrap one's head around and I would be VERY cautious no matter how sincere you believe this offer to be or how much it has developed over time. 

I go back to the topic of scams for a second and will just mention this, there are a fair few that originate from Cyprus, many videos and pictures posted of horses for sale, with bloodlines and training to die for, many that turn out to be pictures of other horses of the same colour and breed but not the same horse... sold under pretense to people in love with the breed. Even when the horse is not being sold under false pretense it is easy to get carried away with the fairytale.  I was working on an Egyptian Arab stud, they YO's wife was in love with the idea of a TB, we went to see a TB who had failed at racing, well barely even tried he was so bad, he had already had keyhole surgery for colic, we went to view - her, myself and her father... she rode this horse around the block... his training ride, the agreement was look don't pay.  She immediately handed over a cheque for 3.5k over 10 years ago despite our trying to talk her out of it.  She purchased a horse who would not leave the yard because it didn't know where it was going and died 2 months later from colic.... just be cautious and leave your fairytail and whimsy at the door.

Also, it is one thing for a yard to say they would 'consider' a stallion, but what exactly would that entail?  For a start, consider is entirely different terminology to welcome, and offers no context as to what that board would be like.  Personally, I do agree that I would never want to keep a stallion on livery in the UK but if it came to that I would want to know that the livery was appropriate and know also that there were back-up solutions in place if it didn't work out as planned.  All it takes is one hop-skip-and-a-jump over the fence and your boy would be out or confined to stable.

Again I see no  need in the slightest to keep him entire... you have no plan on breeding, keeping entire in the UK restricts you in where you can keep him and him in his life on a livery yard.  If you do buy him, you are not obliged to keep him entire.  Look at my profile pic... The Beast is my everything, If you are from a racing background you will know Secretariat, on his sires side through his grand-dam he has Bold Ruler and Hasty Matilda in his bloodlines, his grandsire produced an olympic eventing horse, The beast has an excellent temperament and is certainly a talented horse, he is never going to be a grand prix showjumper or win at HOYS but he is well bred, well put together, cuts a nice outline and jumps like a daemon... BUT, his sire is producing wonderful progeny and he was never purchased to breed, I have owned him from 6 months old and he was cut at 2yrs, keeping him entire or not was my choice as an owner, but a no brainer... I was never going to breed him.  The question of why this horse is entire currently has far more to do with where he is as opposed to his breeding or training, the culture is just different in Cyprus as is the general approach when dealing with Lipz and Pre's on the continent.

I go back to my original post and indeed the initial paragraph of this post, you came on here asking a question, but with the embellishment of your OP (I urge you to re-read it from the perspective of someone being asked for advice and not from the perspective of asking) you asked 'this is my history, these are the circumstances.... stallion yes or no'.  I would even go so far to say that someone asking a simple and plain 'stallion yes or no' question would be faced with a lot of posts on here asking for the wider context with people explaining that they could not make such a simple judgement without knowing the wider circumstance, to do so and not place the response in context would be irresponsible.  In all honesty, I have seen only comprehensive, in-context and well thought and experienced answers to your question on here.

Finally, You are from a racing background you explained. Well, there are a fair amount of entire colts/stallions in that sphere and having mixed in those circuits before, I have seen some monsters but also many very content and well behaved males of the entire nature.  As you should already know it is all in the management and handling.  Those that have potential  and prove it are kept entire, those that don't are eventually cut, the few that make it through the net uncut who were thought to have potential but go on to other lives are cut.  There are very few truly nasty stallions who have not been created, however this country is not truly built for the accommodation of stallions in livery yards... I see no genuine reason to keep a horse that way unless it is being kept by a true and dedicate breeder.  But then, as someone who has worked with stallions in the racing industry before I struggle slightly to understand why you are asking about the management of them since this is something that is familiar to you.
		
Click to expand...

Before I reply in full the Cyprus comment was tongue in cheek! This is what I meant about it being badly misrepresented. Iâ€™ll read your reply in more detail and reply so thank you in advance.


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## HedgePig (24 October 2019)

amymay said:



			Did I miss something - lessons to pay for the horse?
		
Click to expand...

No. Again not what I said at all. This is very frustrating.


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## Queenbee (24 October 2019)

HedgePig said:



			When you write it like that it sounds awful. Youâ€™re right. But itâ€™s inconsistent with how this has developed and it seems to have turned into something it is not.

I have admitted Iâ€™m out of my depth and not well informed. I asked about stallions and I tried to paint a picture of how I see it, as a privilege and itâ€™s been taken as some kind of myth. I am truly sorry for how this has gone I donâ€™t know you but Iâ€™m defending myself from you for reasons Iâ€™m not clear on.
If it is a scam I have been warned off it. Thank you. Hedge.

edit: The owner did say he has had offers and that he had turned them down. I did not feel it was appropriate to ask what the offers were nor why he had chosen to do so. They may have been riders he knew to be cruel. They may have been stupid lowballs. Yet my repeating only what he said is twisted to mean something it is not. Iâ€™m honestly sorry this is how this has gone.
		
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Look no one is calling you or your OH into question.  But read your OP and some of your subsequent post about the potential seller and what you have been told.  Read them from the perspective of someone else, what if you had been approached to give advice on such an issue. I am sure that many of the cautions and questions being expressed here would be coming from you.

Yes it would feel a privileged to be approached with such an incredible offer, but you know what they say... if it seems to good to be true... it probably is.  That should make you approach with extreme caution.  

Also, your preconceived notion of stallions may well affect any chance of this horse settling well and bonding with you. Just a thought, so geld or walk.

Finally, as a buyer there should be no reason why as a prospective purchaser you should feel the need to avoid awkward questions.  You absolutely should ask why them and not you, why not then but now?  How would he feel about you gelding?  What about differing riding styles or the fact you haven't ridden for 20 year or ever ridden classically or have only ever been used to TB's.  It is not about the seller, it is about you and the horse.  If you feel awkward asking the awkward questions you really should walk.  You wouldn't  buy a house without a survey and searches.


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## Queenbee (24 October 2019)

*Just to say I mean't somethingroyal not hasty matilda in my earlier post :/


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## HedgePig (24 October 2019)

Prancer & Vixen/Grinch said:



@HedgePig

My last post was as level as could be... setting aside many pre-conceived notions and judgements I made in the light of your first few posts and I hope that you will continue to perceive this in the same light albeit with the taking into account of subsequent posts, it is intended as such.

When you come on a forum and as a simple question 'stallion's yes or no' you will undoubtedly get a yes or no answer, but placing a context around it as you have and a fairly detailed one at that, as you have expanded on detail, people are want to expand on their answers, views and advice.

The simple facts are that there are so many variables that from your circumstance a) do not lend favorably to your owning a stallion and b) ring significantly loud alarm bells when considering the sale of this horse. Neither of these things mean that you would not be a perfect match but I would be taking huge caution.

It is also true that a lot of scams are perpetuated in this manner, I never realised you were to go to Cyprus to  visit the sellers yard or meet the horse.  Again, caution should be maintained here.  No matter how much you and your GF believe in the integrity of this seller, the horse would be coming from another country (no come back) apparently being sold for significantly less than its potential market value (alarm bells), yes you have been told that this individual has turned down many offers but has he really? Scamming is an art form and they manage it because they spin a completely believable yarn.  This person may or may not be a scammer, but I will say this, I know of no one that would sell to someone who had never ridden this type of horse, with this type and level of training to someone they had not seen ride or who had not ridden for 20 years.  I hear and note that you have said it was a 'you may be suitable for my horse, why not come see and try' comment, but again... why the incredibly low market value. Don't get me wrong, I have bought some incredibly low market value horses and turned them into gems, worth more than their market value in temperament and in some cases talent, but unless I have specific details on why this horse is being offered for a steal... I do smell a fish and steer well clear.  To put into context, my friesian tb... 1k to buy, a total headcase and unschooled but with bags of scope and potential.. I never sold her but could have after a few years... everyone knew her, her looks her movement her talent. An ex polo Argentinian tb, stunning moves, would need work, full MOT and re-schooling, would have cut the perfect pose on the show circuit and made a mint... I got offered it for Â£500.  A beautiful appy x welsh c x quarter horse for Â£1 because I refused to work with her and put my life in danger unless I owned her , pure danger and malice to ride... now the perfect trail horse, xc horse and stock horse.... would have sold for 3.5k at least once her issues were addressed.  Not one of these sellers asked full price and everyone admitted to their many problems and reasons for the very reduced price. Lessons or no, this does seem difficult to wrap one's head around and I would be VERY cautious no matter how sincere you believe this offer to be or how much it has developed over time. 

I go back to the topic of scams for a second and will just mention this, there are a fair few that originate from Cyprus, many videos and pictures posted of horses for sale, with bloodlines and training to die for, many that turn out to be pictures of other horses of the same colour and breed but not the same horse... sold under pretense to people in love with the breed. Even when the horse is not being sold under false pretense it is easy to get carried away with the fairytale.  I was working on an Egyptian Arab stud, they YO's wife was in love with the idea of a TB, we went to see a TB who had failed at racing, well barely even tried he was so bad, he had already had keyhole surgery for colic, we went to view - her, myself and her father... she rode this horse around the block... his training ride, the agreement was look don't pay.  She immediately handed over a cheque for 3.5k over 10 years ago despite our trying to talk her out of it.  She purchased a horse who would not leave the yard because it didn't know where it was going and died 2 months later from colic.... just be cautious and leave your fairytail and whimsy at the door.

Also, it is one thing for a yard to say they would 'consider' a stallion, but what exactly would that entail?  For a start, consider is entirely different terminology to welcome, and offers no context as to what that board would be like.  Personally, I do agree that I would never want to keep a stallion on livery in the UK but if it came to that I would want to know that the livery was appropriate and know also that there were back-up solutions in place if it didn't work out as planned.  All it takes is one hop-skip-and-a-jump over the fence and your boy would be out or confined to stable.

Again I see no  need in the slightest to keep him entire... you have no plan on breeding, keeping entire in the UK restricts you in where you can keep him and him in his life on a livery yard.  If you do buy him, you are not obliged to keep him entire.  Look at my profile pic... The Beast is my everything, If you are from a racing background you will know Secretariat, on his sires side through his grand-dam he has Bold Ruler and Hasty Matilda in his bloodlines, his grandsire produced an olympic eventing horse, The beast has an excellent temperament and is certainly a talented horse, he is never going to be a grand prix showjumper or win at HOYS but he is well bred, well put together, cuts a nice outline and jumps like a daemon... BUT, his sire is producing wonderful progeny and he was never purchased to breed, I have owned him from 6 months old and he was cut at 2yrs, keeping him entire or not was my choice as an owner, but a no brainer... I was never going to breed him.  The question of why this horse is entire currently has far more to do with where he is as opposed to his breeding or training, the culture is just different in Cyprus as is the general approach when dealing with Lipz and Pre's on the continent.

I go back to my original post and indeed the initial paragraph of this post, you came on here asking a question, but with the embellishment of your OP (I urge you to re-read it from the perspective of someone being asked for advice and not from the perspective of asking) you asked 'this is my history, these are the circumstances.... stallion yes or no'.  I would even go so far to say that someone asking a simple and plain 'stallion yes or no' question would be faced with a lot of posts on here asking for the wider context with people explaining that they could not make such a simple judgement without knowing the wider circumstance, to do so and not place the response in context would be irresponsible.  In all honesty, I have seen only comprehensive, in-context and well thought and experienced answers to your question on here.

Finally, You are from a racing background you explained. Well, there are a fair amount of entire colts/stallions in that sphere and having mixed in those circuits before, I have seen some monsters but also many very content and well behaved males of the entire nature.  As you should already know it is all in the management and handling.  Those that have potential  and prove it are kept entire, those that don't are eventually cut, the few that make it through the net uncut who were thought to have potential but go on to other lives are cut.  There are very few truly nasty stallions who have not been created, however this country is not truly built for the accommodation of stallions in livery yards... I see no genuine reason to keep a horse that way unless it is being kept by a true and dedicate breeder.  But then, as someone who has worked with stallions in the racing industry before I struggle slightly to understand why you are asking about the management of them since this is something that is familiar to you.
		
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Hi P&V/G.
You are absolutely right about perspective. The Cyprus comment was me being tongue in cheek about how badly this opportunity is being seen, that I should not be surprised if I was asked to take raw diamonds to Cyprus. 
There are no diamonds! No international flights! All UK stuff! I know the man and he is my gf trainer. I have answered elsewhere how the discussion came to pass and itâ€™s entirely possible that the horse has a serious problem. In my mind the price we touched on was lower than I expected but by no means a bargain nor a small sum. I guess itâ€™s subjective but I did feel and still do that talking money with strangers is very poor form. It may be upon vet inspection and more that heâ€™s worth less. Time certainly will tell.
All your points about the livery are excellent thank you.
I made a huge mistake trying to frame the opportunity in too much detail and it has backfired spectacularly and caused arguments.

You are exactly right I should have kept it short and sweet and just said â€œTell me about owning stallions folks?â€

This was a mistake as itâ€™s invited speculation that has later been taken as fact. None of which is true. As such I have asked the moderators to remove this thread as I have said elsewhere I did actually just pick up the phone and ask a very large equestrian centre if they took stallions and they said yes. That was a good enough start for me. But again more confusion.
Iâ€™ve sat here tonight chatting to my gf and we are both of the opinion that if this initial investigation has proven this difficult, that itâ€™s unlikely we will proceed.
Thank you again, sincerely for a lengthy and informative reply. Hedge.


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## Queenbee (24 October 2019)

HedgePig said:



			Hi P&V/G.
You are absolutely right about perspective. The Cyprus comment was me being tongue in cheek about how badly this opportunity is being seen, that I should not be surprised if I was asked to take raw diamonds to Cyprus.
There are no diamonds! No international flights! All UK stuff! .
		
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Lol good to hear although I can attest Cyprus is wonderful at this time of year!



HedgePig said:



			I know the man and he is my gf trainer. I have answered elsewhere how the discussion came to pass and itâ€™s entirely possible that the horse has a serious problem. In my mind the price we touched on was lower than I expected but by no means a bargain nor a small sum. I guess itâ€™s subjective but I did feel and still do that talking money with strangers is very poor form. It may be upon vet inspection and more that heâ€™s worth less. Time certainly will tell.
.
		
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It is good to hear that he is known to you, I did spot that and it does provide some comfort and a level of security one would hope from your perspective but again...  just proceed with caution, most trainers are great, trustworthy and would not want to damage their trainer-client relationship but there are a few out there who see the short term gain as far more important, no matter how friendly they appear to be. I may have overlooked it but I didn't see anyone asking for you to divulge prices... simply commenting on the strangeness of the fact that you had mentioned that he had incredible bloodlines and was trained to the highest standard and being sold for less than horses of far less calibre and as such urging extreme caution.



HedgePig said:



			All your points about the livery are excellent thank you.
I made a huge mistake trying to frame the opportunity in too much detail and it has backfired spectacularly and caused arguments.

You are exactly right I should have kept it short and sweet and just said â€œTell me about owning stallions folks?â€

This was a mistake as itâ€™s invited speculation that has later been taken as fact. None of which is true. As such I have asked the moderators to remove this thread
		
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I don't actually think you did make a mistake or that you should have kept it short and sweet, by giving context you have gained contextual opinions.  You may feel that some of these have been given out of context, but what you have in reality is a load of people some of whom have considered 'worst case scenarios' for you... that is never a bad thing when considering buying a horse!  Man! We haven't even ventured into the cost of equipment, vets bills and livery you think we are brutal now! We never want to hear the awkward questions and comments but it is a great leveler, again I would say that that is most likely why you came here... not necessarily to be talked out of it, but more to hear a rational voice to all the possible pitfalls and red flags. 



HedgePig said:



			as I have said elsewhere I did actually just pick up the phone and ask a very large equestrian centre if they took stallions and they said yes. That was a good enough start for me. But again more confusion.
		
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I saw no confusion really, yes it is incredibly rare to have a positive response from a yard, but it all depends, some would argue that a larger more professional set up would be more likely to say yes due to having the facilities and capacity, others would say that due to such a large amount of clientele they would not want to bother with the hassle.  I would just stress again that a measured 'possible' is something that needs exploring further which I am sure you and your OH will do prior to making any commitment.


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## The Fuzzy Furry (24 October 2019)

HedgePig said:



			Thank you for your replies. I suggest Iâ€™m going to leave this thread, itâ€™s done very little to help me understand the potential risks and I am sorry for how it has evidently upset you and others. Hedge.
		
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I disagree,  there has been some very helpful and extremely knowledgeable posts from the start, which would help most equestrians to understand stallion care, management and riding.  However,  you don't appear to have acknowledged this, despite your very long and sometimes whimsical replies.

Good luck in whatever you do.


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## ycbm (24 October 2019)

....might think think heâ€™s worth 100,000 and we spoke about 50,000. It wasnâ€™t these numbers but you get the idea?
		
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I would have expected it to have been much higher for a fertile stallion with sought after blood lines trained to the very top level of Haute Ã‰cole. A top Lusitano training yard near me pays Â£30-50k for an untrained four year old stallion. It is the value of the horse, as much as anything, which is causing people to doubt your story.

.


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## Lurfy (24 October 2019)

I have come across several stallions of various breeds on agistment and shows over the years. They have not been a problem because they were catered to carefully with appropriate handling,  turn out and fencing. I have never owned one so can't speak personally. I prefer geldings because I have no desire to breed and enjoy the ease of taking them out and about. I don't think my skills are up to a stallion anyway. But I think if you are highly motivated and have enough resources to have good instruction and support then it is doable if the horse is a good match. You won't know that until you see him and hopefully have a ride. I wish you all the best which ever way it goes. You are lucky to have a gf who will be able to help you.


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## tristar (24 October 2019)

anything entire should be treated with respect, dont trust it a spit, where you keep it depends on its mind, lots of stallions are ridden, you need your mind in gear at all times,  and if you doubt yourself the horse will pick up on this.


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## RHM (24 October 2019)

I have a very different experience with stallions. I loaned my ponyâ€™s father as a child (non horsey parents!!) and we had so much fun together. He was just as mannerly as you would expect from a schooled horse. He lived out 24/7 with a gelding for company and covered mares throughout the summer months. He could happily be hacked out alongside mares and was shown in hand in mixed classes with no issues. The only thing he wouldnâ€™t tolerate was rough treatment and he would react violently. However, as a doting teenager he let me do anything to him.

Finding yards to accommodate them is difficult though. I had Jake on a private stud farm. There are a couple of yards near me now that offer stallion turnout but it is individual and some distance from other horses.

The biggest concern of mine with the horse you are discussing is not itâ€™s genitalia but rather I donâ€™t think I would be able to ride either side of it! I would be worried that you might confuse it as it has been used to very specific aids. That been said you wonâ€™t know until you get on him! Just to echo some of the other posters too, horses do not have aspirations so donâ€™t let its ability put you off! Good luck with your decision!

Edited to say, really should have read the whole thread before commenting ðŸ˜‚


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## scruffyponies (24 October 2019)

laura_nash said:



			As everyone is saying your biggest problem would be other peoples attitude and finding a good livery where people aren't going to be scared of him or blame any small problem on his being entire.  You might find the higher-end competition yards are more used to stallions, or a yard that specialises in spanish types.  Almost certainly it will make livery further away and / or more expensive.  I have known a stallion on a livery yard and he was fine, but he was owned by the YO.  The other stallions I've known, who were all fine and perfectly sane, were kept at home and turned out with company (usually a gelding / geldings, but one was out with a barren mare).
		
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This^^
I have 3 stallions in my herd of 11.  The rest are geldings.  They're out at grass all year, and rarely cause any issue.  I say rarely, because if they do go off on one, there's much more horse  to deal with - horse in my avatar will insist on meeting his (also stallion) best friend with a squeal and a series of rear/strike poses every time he has been ridden.  It's lovely to watch, but just a taste of what he could do if he got excited.  Aged about 5 he nearly did get himself gelded.  That said, he's or 8 now, can be (and often is) caught and ridden by a child, and will calmly pass or work alongside other horses, including mares, because he has been consistently expected to do so.  

BUT, if anything goes wrong, even if it's not his fault, people will blame him and you.


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## 9tails (24 October 2019)

Yet still the burning question is why this geezer wants to offload his 10 year old in his prime well trained top bloodlines stallion to a bloke he's not seen ride, a bloke who admits he hasn't ridden for 20 years and doesn't have his own land to secure this stallion's welfare.


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## AdorableAlice (24 October 2019)

Aside from the possibility of a scam. I would visit the livery yard before seeing the horse.  There will be many a livery yard using a bit of broken post and rail, slack electric wire and the odd bedstead and considering their fencing to be safe.  A telephone chat wouldnâ€™t satisfy me that a premise is suitable to house a stallion, regardless of how well behaved he is.


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## HedgePig (24 October 2019)

9tails said:



			Yet still the burning question is why this geezer wants to offload his 10 year old in his prime well trained top bloodlines stallion to a bloke he's not seen ride, a bloke who admits he hasn't ridden for 20 years and doesn't have his own land to secure this stallion's welfare.
		
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This will be the fourth and final time I will try to address this:
1) It's not an offload. There is a price, not cheap, which came about after some lengthy discussions. Beyond that nothing has been concluded. Nothing. It may turn out its beyond me. You're behaving like its about to be dumped and abandoned with rank amateurs and it just shows your hysteria. Have you bothered to actually read any of my replies? Or is it just in your nature to come onto public forums and argue with strangers?
2) If you want to limit the scope of riders to just me (20 years) and not include my partner who he trains, then I am afraid even a Venn diagram isn't going to help you. Then everyone is an idiot.
3) I know very little about the horse, he may be injured. He may be unwell. He may have monocrypt. (sp) or something. You're just speculating and its actually ridiculous. Stop, if you can't add anything of value. 
4) I admitted I have not owned a stallion. I have owned horses. Also I don't currently own my own land so I turned to people like you for advice on a stallion. Nothing unusual, nothing weird. It's you who has turned this into some kind of farce. 

What is the point of repeating yourself 12 times when you are dealing with this kind of absurd myopia. But thats just me being whimsical I believe. 
For those who have taken the trouble to respond with your own experience of stallions, be it good or bad I say thank you. Truly. Hedge.


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## HedgePig (24 October 2019)

AdorableAlice said:



			Aside from the possibility of a scam. I would visit the livery yard before seeing the horse.  There will be many a livery yard using a bit of broken post and rail, slack electric wire and the odd bedstead and considering their fencing to be safe.  A telephone chat wouldnâ€™t satisfy me that a premise is suitable to house a stallion, regardless of how well behaved he is.
		
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Hi Alice you are right of course. 
If this is a 10 stage program I would say I am on stage 0.5.
Yesterday the issue of a good livery that takes stallions was raised as a big issue. As such I picked up the phone to a very large centre and was very fortunate to get an initial reading that they do accept stallions. That was as much info as I asked for, the place may be completely unsuitable of course and this would shape my thinking dramatically. What started as a genuine, excited appeal to a community has descended into quite something. I should not have embellished as I did, rather kept it simple. Lesson learnt. As it seems my inability to provide a clear answer immediately leads some to assume the worst, which is a great pity. You are right, I don't know enough about the livery to even contemplate that this has been dealt with. When I get to, if I get to stage 1 I will go out to them and have those sorts of discussions and meet the livery owner etc.

Thank you for your reply. Hedge.


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## HedgePig (24 October 2019)

The Fuzzy Furry said:



			I disagree,  there has been some very helpful and extremely knowledgeable posts from the start, which would help most equestrians to understand stallion care, management and riding.  However,  you don't appear to have acknowledged this, despite your very long and sometimes whimsical replies.

Good luck in whatever you do.
		
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I have worked hard to thank contributions which have been informed, even when they have been harsh. I have been unimpressed with the accusations that some folks seem happy to repeat and then get everyone into a pile on. Then yes, thats a bit like kindergarten though I thank you for your critical assessment on my verbosity. Given English is not my first language I am actually flattered. Thank you. Hedge.


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## milliepops (24 October 2019)

HP you might not know the number of fantasists that arrive on this forum and with their opening post start weaving a yarn about some unlikely situation trying to make fools of other posters who engage with them.

with that knowledge, if you read your posts with detachment you might appreciate why there's a degree of suspicion.
People on this forum are kind and generous with their advice on the whole, but self preservation steps in when something seems a bit odd. That's why you've been challenged on some of the vague details you have supplied that seem outside the norm.


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## HedgePig (24 October 2019)

ycbm said:



			I would have expected it to have been much higher for a fertile stallion with sought after blood lines trained to the very top level of Haute Ã‰cole. A top Lusitano training yard near me pays Â£30-50k for an untrained four year old stallion. It is the value of the horse, as much as anything, which is causing people to doubt your story.

.
		
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This is a fair point. I have only seen him perform one movement, I have no idea if he can do others. Again, some wild speculation that he has been trained like some super horse, these threads did not come from me, but from others. Words like Haute Ecole and Capriole were not mine. I happen to think he looks like a magnificent horse. He may be a dud. I have admitted as much but it seems its more fun to repeat the first bit. 

I would certainly have him vet checked etc. I have 2 or 3 people I know and trust in the industry who I would run the numbers past well before making any sort of commitment. My concern, for now, was my suitability as an owner for a stallion and as hard as I try to get the conversation back to this point it seems this is impossible.

Thank you again for taking the trouble to reply though. For the moment it feels like the whole idea is dead in the water before it begins where I am now reluctant to share more info as I have it, for fear it too will be torn apart. Thank you. Hedge.


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## southerncomfort (24 October 2019)

I will admit to being a deeply cautious and highly sceptical human being so it all sounds a bit weird/suspect to me.

So all I will say is:

View with head not heart
Be honest with yourself about riding ability etc
Listen to your instincts, they keep us safe
If you decide to purchase have him vetted at his current yard by an independent vet
Don't rule out gelding at a later date: I used to work at a stud and all the stallions were eventually gelded so that they could live out their years turned out in a mixed herd

Personally, this whole thing sounds like way too much hassle to me. Their are so many nice horses here that you could have fun with.  But I wish you lots of luck whatever you decide. ðŸ™‚


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## HedgePig (24 October 2019)

milliepops said:



			HP you might not know the number of fantasists that arrive on this forum and with their opening post start weaving a yarn about some unlikely situation trying to make fools of other posters who engage with them.

with that knowledge, if you read your posts with detachment you might appreciate why there's a degree of suspicion.
People on this forum are kind and generous with their advice on the whole, but self preservation steps in when something seems a bit odd. That's why you've been challenged on some of the vague details you have supplied that seem outside the norm.
		
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Hi millie and this I accept and understand. But to stand at a distance and yell at me on a forum seems counter-intuitive. I have NO upside for making this up. A great example was the question of a livery. You were involved to start where this was raised as a very significant and serious issue. What did I do, I picked up the phone and asked the question. The answer I got was a yes. I reported this 'yes' to this forum and it was met with awful feedback. I am making it up. I need backup. I have not asked the right questions. Yards don't just take stallions. It must be dodgy. You saw it yourself. That isn't the behaviour of a community that is generous and well-meaning. 

I have subsequently had more info. Which would continue to shape the thinking. Do you honestly feel given my reception I am willing to share it in here? You have a better chance of getting me pregnant. I sit here with an awful, hollow feeling in my chest and for what? Because I asked a community to help me understand the risks of owning a stallion. This is how I feel. I'm STILL getting the '20 year last riders don't get horses' line. When thats completely inconsistent with what I said, right from the start. But again, thank you for being diplomatic. I have clearly upset some senior members and without actually giving me any credibility it has turned into a pile on. Hedge.


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## Tiddlypom (24 October 2019)

Just step away from the forum then, as it has upset you so much?


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## HedgePig (24 October 2019)

southerncomfort said:



			I will admit to being a deeply cautious and highly sceptical human being so it all sounds a bit weird/suspect to me.

So all I will say is:

View with head not heart
Be honest with yourself about riding ability etc
Listen to your instincts, they keep us safe
If you decide to purchase have him vetted at his current yard by an independent vet
Don't rule out gelding at a later date: I used to work at a stud and all the stallions were eventually gelded so that they could live out their years turned out in a mixed herd

Personally, this whole thing sounds like way too much hassle to me. Their are so many nice horses here that you could have fun with.  But I wish you lots of luck whatever you decide. ðŸ™‚
		
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SC this has become a big part of my thinking. Its not a small amount of money and I seem to be selecting a rod for my back. I am genuinely sorry if this has been interpreted as suspect. I blame myself for getting ahead of myself at the start where I should have been shorter and clearer. Thank you for your reply. Hedge.


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## HedgePig (24 October 2019)

Tiddlypom said:



			Just step away from the forum then, as it has upset you so much?
		
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I think that's what I shall do. No doubt that will invite more of a pile on about being a coward or some such. Sometimes you just need to accept people are cruel. Thank you. Hedge.


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## ester (24 October 2019)

One of my main concerns would be what happens if you find you don't get on with this guy teaching you, if you have agreed to be taught by him for a year. Friends don't always make the best instructors.


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## HedgePig (24 October 2019)

ester said:



			One of my main concerns would be what happens if you find you don't get on with this guy teaching you, if you have agreed to be taught by him for a year. Friends don't always make the best instructors.
		
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Good point. But I would be in a bit of a catch 22. My gf and I would not be able to train him. I guess a big part of why this became an opportunity was exactly because I know I have access to top quality instruction. If I didn't it would really not be viable. But your point is fair, what happens if we fall out. In my mind there would be a sale. Independent of the training. The training would be like you might agree with any instructor. Again I guess a step would be ringing around once I have more detail and speaking with other trainers for a take. Thank you for your reply. Hedge.


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## planete (24 October 2019)

You may want to have a chat with somebody at the Lipizzaner Society of Great Britain. http://www.lipizzaner.co.uk .  The Lipizzaner scene is very small in this country and most people involved know each other.  Starrock Stud imported two SRS stallions and bred them on the condition they were never worked by people who had not trained at the Spanish Riding School.  There is great knowledge among the members of Lipi lines and stallions, management and training in general.  Also of the SRS trained riders.


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## Caol Ila (24 October 2019)

In an earlier post, you wrote something about paying 'a retainer' for the trainer.  That's unusual, for the horse world in the UK, at least in my experience.  People either pay for lessons weekly, or there are programs where one will pay in advance for a month of lessons but not much more than that.  In the US it can be very different, and if you have your horse at a the trainer's barn, he's in their program (whether you like their program or not).  That's less of a thing here.

Stallion issues aside, I would not personally buy a horse where my ownership of it is dependent on and perhaps a condition of working with a particular trainer.  What if you fall out?  What if you and your GF moved to a different part of the country?  What if the trainer does?  If you think the horse is suitable, buy it outright, like buying any other horse.  Obviously, take lessons with the trainer so long as it suits everyone, but sales agreements with conditions that tie the new owner to certain people, places, or anything have a way of going south.

There are a lot of nice horses out there with no strings attached.


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## windand rain (24 October 2019)

In my view every good stallion makes a better gelding but having said that if he is the horse for you and it all excites you then it is worth giving it a go as long as his welfare always comes first. Most colts and stallions when correctly handled are well behaved and no a lot different to a mare


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## HedgePig (24 October 2019)

Caol Ila said:



			In an earlier post, you wrote something about paying 'a retainer' for the trainer.  That's unusual, for the horse world in the UK, at least in my experience.  People either pay for lessons weekly, or there are programs where one will pay in advance for a month of lessons but not much more than that.  In the US it can be very different, and if you have your horse at a the trainer's barn, he's in their program (whether you like their program or not).  That's less of a thing here.

Stallion issues aside, I would not personally buy a horse where my ownership of it is dependent on and perhaps a condition of working with a particular trainer.  What if you fall out?  What if you and your GF moved to a different part of the country?  What if the trainer does?  If you think the horse is suitable, buy it outright, like buying any other horse.  Obviously, take lessons with the trainer so long as it suits everyone, but sales agreements with conditions that tie the new owner to certain people, places, or anything have a way of going south.

There are a lot of nice horses out there with no strings attached.
		
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Hi Caol. The discussion was about continued training for my partner. It obviously moved on to my training needs as well, when (if?) I found a suitable horse. That was all. In my mind I used the term 'retainer' as I wanted to emphasise that this isn't some random getting a horse dumped on him. I wouldn't take any horse without talking to my instructor, that just makes sense. To be clear the two are independent of one another. Any sale (unlikely as that now is) would not be tied to any sort of training or vice versa. I hope this has made it a little clearer, it certainly has helped me be clear that the two are not related insofar as a sale is concerned. Thanks again, Hedge.


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## Kaylum (24 October 2019)

Have you got any videos or photos of the horse as I would love to see him or a website or anything. 

If you have found a livery yard that will take one why don't you go and have a look at the facilities and see how the stallions live day to day and their routine (sorry if you have done this already)


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## HedgePig (24 October 2019)

Kaylum said:



			Have you got any videos or photos of the horse as I would love to see him or a website or anything.

If you have found a livery yard that will take one why don't you go and have a look at the facilities and see how the stallions live day to day and their routine (sorry if you have done this already)
		
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Hi Kaylum!
I have lots of photos. He looks absolutely lovely. Please accept that given my reception in here that I am reluctant to share more details on him, next thing the owner will be dragged in here to answer for his sins and that would be unkind. This whole thing has snowballed out of control. 

The question of the livery would absolutely be next up, after I had met him and ridden him. Maybe sometime next week.


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## ester (24 October 2019)

blimey, how do we go about dragging people in here?


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## HedgePig (24 October 2019)

ester said:



			blimey, how do we go about dragging people in here? 

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Ha ha, if you have been polite to me, I will have been to you. If this comment didn't affect you, then it wasn't aimed at you.


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## ester (24 October 2019)

No, I really wondered how we make people come here against their will? How does that work? Please do enlighten, it would be really useful sometimes.


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## Caol Ila (24 October 2019)

I honestly don't think anyone has attacked you or been rude.  To experienced horse people, your situation sounds unusual -- indeed, downright odd.  You have to expect the raised eyebrows.

To summarize your OP, you wrote, "I used to work in the horse industry at a stud and owned some TBs and Hanoverians at some point, but haven't really ridden in 20 years, and now my mate is offering me his Lipizzan stallion that's been trained in the Haute Ecole.  I'm nervous about owning a stallion, especially one trained to this level and I don't want to ruin him.  What do you think?"  It's weird.  Not saying it isn't totally genuine or an amazing opportunity, but it's not in the ballpark of what people who've been in the horse industry for a long time expect, so you have to roll with the skepticism and not be offended by it.

If you'd written that your girlfriend, an experienced dressage rider who's been riding Andalusians for a while, was offered the horse, that would still raise the concerns about keeping stallions on livery and all that, but it would be slightly less out there.

It's also true that bizarre and out there things happen all the time in the horse world, but you know, proceed with caution and sense and don't dismiss advice because it sounds blunt.  This chap might be a great friend and the nicest guy in the world, but to people who don't know him, or you, but who have years of experience with all the weird, shady, and insane sh ** t that happens with horses and horse dealing, it sounds fishy.  So don't be offended by those posts, either, but do take it on board.


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## HedgePig (24 October 2019)

Caol Ila said:



			I honestly don't think anyone has attacked you or been rude.  To experienced horse people, your situation sounds unusual and downright odd.  You have to expect the raised eyebrows.

To summarize your OP, you wrote, "I used to work in the horse industry at a stud and owned some TBs and Hanoverians at some point, but haven't really ridden in 20 years, and now my mate is offering me his Lippizzan stallion that's been trained in the Haute Ecole.  I'm nervous about owning a stallion, especially one trained to this level and I don't want to ruin him.  What do you think?"  It's weird.  Not saying it isn't totally genuine or an amazing opportunity, but it's not in the ballpark of what people who've been in the horse industry for a long time expect, so you have to roll with the skepticism and not be offended by it.

If you'd written that your girlfriend, an experienced dressage rider who's been riding Andalusians for a while, was offered the horse, that would still raise the concerns about keeping stallions on livery and all that, but it would be slightly less out there.

It's also true that bizarre and out there things happen all the time in the horse world, but you know, proceed with caution and sense and don't dismiss advice because it sounds blunt.
		
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Lesson learnt. 
I should have placed a great deal more emphasis on the players involved rather than my own lack of experience of stallions. For the record I have not once used the terms "Haute ecole" or "capriole" or similar. You just quoted me from my first post. You used quotes. But if we go back thats not what I said at all, whats the point in writing something if people are going to make up quotes? It is a pity. I have repeatedly tried to steer the topic back to stallions. 

To summarise for the moment, my take is that not being able to provide my own facility its vital I confirm the treatment he is likely to enjoy at the livery. This will be heavily influenced by how well mannered he is. For all my prickle in here I consider myself an empath with a keen sense of the welfare of any animal and if there is any chance he is to be consigned to a life of solitary confinement then I will end the discussion there. Thank you for your reply. Hedge.


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## Leo Walker (24 October 2019)

HedgePig said:



			You're behaving like its about to be dumped and abandoned with rank amateurs and it just shows your hysteria.
		
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But you are a rank amateur. You've not ridden for 20years. What on earth else could you be classed as? Its all well and good saying your GF is a good rider. The horse is coming to you and you aren't a good rider. No one is having not ridden for 20 years.


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## HedgePig (24 October 2019)

Leo Walker said:



			But you are a rank amateur. You've not ridden for 20years. What on earth else could you be classed as? Its all well and good saying your GF is a good rider. The horse is coming to you and you aren't a good rider. No one is having not ridden for 20 years.
		
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Thanks Leo. I have tried to explain but its absolutely clear that you believe this is a bad idea. I have put you in the 'no' column. Thank you. Hedge.


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## The Fuzzy Furry (24 October 2019)

Surely, If you have "worked on a yearling stud breaking horses in through your university years", you will know what is involved as colts and fillies would have been the order of the day
(by the way, I'm confused about this, nobody breaks yearlings except in specialist flat racing yards, which isn't mentioned).

I'm out......


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## Caol Ila (24 October 2019)

You did say 'airs above of the ground.'  "[This horse]... has done several years of schooling and has been trained to perform Airs above ground. To anyone not familiar, this is a classical dressage discipline where the horse is trained to rear and jump and kick in the air.  It is extraordinarily beautiful and complex." 

That *is* the Haute Ecole.  They're just synonyms.


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## Leo Walker (24 October 2019)

HedgePig said:



			Thanks Leo. I have tried to explain but its absolutely clear that you believe this is a bad idea. I have put you in the 'no' column. Thank you. Hedge.
		
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Just to be clear, I think the whole thing is a fantasy and completely made up.


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## HedgePig (24 October 2019)

Leo Walker said:



			Just to be clear, I think the whole thing is a fantasy and completely made up.
		
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I have just made a double line under your NO in the NO column. Thank you. Hedge.


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## eggs (24 October 2019)

What does your girlfriend this to this (you getting the stallion not this post) ?

To be blunt I would not want to be selling my very highly trained horse (sex immaterial) to some-one who has not ridden for 20 years no matter what the arrangement.  At the very least I would expect them to have started riding again and have a good few weeks under their belt.


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## HedgePig (24 October 2019)

eggs said:



			What does your girlfriend this to this (you getting the stallion not this post) ?

To be blunt I would not want to be selling my very highly trained horse (sex immaterial) to some-one who has not ridden for 20 years no matter what the arrangement.  At the very least I would expect them to have started riding again and have a good few weeks under their belt.
		
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Hi Eggs and thanks for joining the thread. 

You're right, its probably beyond my abilities at the moment, though not my partners. I shall put you under the 'no' column that this is a bad idea. Thank you. Hedge.


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## eggs (24 October 2019)

HedgePig said:



			Hi Eggs and thanks for joining the thread.

You're right, its probably beyond my abilities at the moment, though not my partners. I shall put you under the 'no' column that this is a bad idea. Thank you. Hedge.
		
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fyi I did reply earlier in this thread so I am not new to it.... (you even liked my last comment to help jog your memory)

Also I still think your gf is in a much better position to advise you as she knows you much better than a bunch of random people on a forum.

PS  you can put me in whichever column you wish it really doesn't bother me


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## blitznbobs (24 October 2019)

Is sounds like your heart is set on it as a path ... I personally like stallions to ride but donâ€™t like the way they are kept on most yards and having high enough strong enough fences to have them turned out safely can be a challenge ... life is too short not to follow your dreams but once you make a decision like this it is your responsibility both to yourself and to the horse to make it the right one .


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## HedgePig (24 October 2019)

blitznbobs said:



			Is sounds like your heart is set on it as a path ... I personally like stallions to ride but donâ€™t like the way they are kept on most yards and having high enough strong enough fences to have them turned out safely can be a challenge ... life is too short not to follow your dreams but once you make a decision like this it is your responsibility both to yourself and to the horse to make it the right one .
		
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Hi BnB. 
I think for now while I actually think we could make it work, its probably beyond (certainly) my scope for the moment.


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## ycbm (24 October 2019)

HedgePig said:



			This is a fair point. I have only seen him perform one movement, I have no idea if he can do others. Again, some wild speculation that he has been trained like some super horse, these threads did not come from me, but from others. Words like Haute Ecole and Capriole were not mine. I happen to think he looks like a magnificent horse. He may be a dud. I have admitted as much but it seems its more fun to repeat the first bit.
		
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There was no wild speculation.

You described a capriole. Rearing onto his back legs and kicking out. That's a capriole. You don't know the name of it in spite of your girlfriend training with the trainer, or know that the fact he can do a capriole, by definition, means he is some kind of superhorse because most horses will never in a lifetime be able to master that movement, which is the very top of haute Ã©cole training. That is  is another thing making people doubt your story.


.


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## HedgePig (24 October 2019)

ycbm said:



			There was no wild speculation.

You described a capriole. Rearing onto his back legs and kicking out. That's a capriole. You don't know the name of it in spite of your girlfriend training with the trainer, or know that the fact he can do a capriole, by definition, means he is some kind of superhorse because most horses will never in a lifetime be able to master that movement, which is the very top of haute Ã©cole training. That is  is another thing making people doubt your story.


.
		
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You're in the 'no' column already. 

I guess now everyone is convinced this is all the creation of some fantasist online, the question I asked originally is irrelevant. I admitted I don't believe I have the necessary skill for now, in fact I used the term 'ruin'. Since then its been a campaign of telling me I'm right. 

What would you have me do to back this up? To bunch of aggressive hidden ID's on an open forum? It just seems pointless and I have admitted this was a mistake and I have apologised for apparently wasting everyone's time. This. Was. A. Mistake. 

Hedge.


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## Amymay (24 October 2019)

Aggressive??  Who, Where??? ðŸ¤·ðŸ»â€â™€ï¸


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## Petalpoos (24 October 2019)

No one has mentioned it, for fear of retribution probably..but "Don't feed the.." occurred to me right at the start of this thread. Who knows?

Will go and hide now.


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## HedgePig (24 October 2019)

Petalpoos said:



			No one has mentioned it, for fear of retribution probably..but "Don't feed the.." occurred to me right at the start of this thread. Who knows?

Will go and hide now.
		
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You are WAY braver than me!


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## MrPerkins (24 October 2019)

I don't care to judge whether the scenario is true or not. I agree it sounds unlikely, but know that unlikley things do happen. Some of the information given has been misinterpreted and then other people have run with that - some of it has been misrepresented, to the same effect. It's not particularly helpful that old posts can't be edited, because HedgePig can't amend the first post, so some responses are missing information or clarification given later on.

I've read every post. Some people have been blunt, some snippy. Nothing particularly aggressive, though. Certainly nothing outside of the scope of what I'd expect from a public forum. I hate to say it, but if you think this is awful then you're going to struggle posting in public! It's really not  Some of the posters and posts you've been most upset by (BePositive!) - I've not been able to read into them any of the aggression you seem to have found. But then that is compounded by people popping in with guns blazing and reductive statements like this 




			Yet still the burning question is why this geezer wants to offload his 10 year old in his prime well trained top bloodlines stallion to a bloke he's not seen ride (etc)
		
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So while I see why you're upset, I still think you are sometimes reading things and tone into posts that aren't apparent to other people, and (to use your own word, sorry!) being far too prickly. This is an interesting situation and one I'd like to follow the outcome of, so please don't storm out, Hedge.



HedgePig said:



			Iâ€™ve sat here tonight chatting to my gf and we are both of the opinion that if this initial investigation has proven this difficult, that itâ€™s unlikely we will proceed.
		
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Hopefully this is just hyperbole, because so far your initial investigation sounds like it's been a primary enquiry at a livery yard (which is initially positive), and asking for opinions on a public forum - in which the discussion may not have gone the way you wanted - but surely that's not 'difficult', nor ought that to factor in to your decision as to whether to proceed?!


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## 9tails (24 October 2019)

HedgePig said:



			Lesson learnt.
I should have placed a great deal more emphasis on the players involved rather than my own lack of experience of stallions. For the record I have not once used the terms "Haute ecole" or "capriole" or similar. You just quoted me from my first post. You used quotes. But if we go back thats not what I said at all, whats the point in writing something if people are going to make up quotes? It is a pity. I have repeatedly tried to steer the topic back to stallions.
		
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Capriole is there a horse rears then kicks out its back legs.  The exact same move that you described in your post.  Haute Ecole is the school that teaches these moves.  They're attempting to educate you.

We're not impressed with stallions or owners of stallions.  Stallions need special arrangements, places with very good fencing if they're going to have any kind of life.  Going off to clinics may be difficult with your stallion if mares are present.  You can't expect other owners to be pleased to be faced with a stallion if their in season mare plays up.  This wouldn't happen with geldings.  That's why most people at pleasure level have mares or geldings.


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## HedgePig (24 October 2019)

MrPerkins said:



			I don't care to judge whether the scenario is true or not. I agree it sounds unlikely, but know that unlikley things do happen. Some of the information given has been misinterpreted and then other people have run with that - some of it has been misrepresented, to the same effect. It's not particularly helpful that old posts can't be edited, because HedgePig can't amend the first post, so some responses are missing information or clarification given later on.

I've read every post. Some people have been blunt, some snippy. Nothing particularly aggressive, though. Certainly nothing outside of the scope of what I'd expect from a public forum. I hate to say it, but if you think this is awful then you're going to struggle posting in public! It's really not  Some of the posters and posts you've been most upset by (BePositive!) - I've not been able to read into them any of the aggression you seem to have found. But then that is compounded by people popping in with guns blazing and reductive statements like this 



So while I see why you're upset, I still think you are sometimes reading things and tone into posts that aren't apparent to other people, and (to use your own word, sorry!) being far too prickly. This is an interesting situation and one I'd like to follow the outcome of, so please don't storm out, Hedge.



Hopefully this is just hyperbole, because so far your initial investigation sounds like it's been a primary enquiry at a livery yard (which is initially positive), and asking for opinions on a public forum - in which the discussion may not have gone the way you wanted - but surely that's not 'difficult', nor ought that to factor in to your decision as to whether to proceed?!
		
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MrPerkins you may not believe it but my gf named your post SPECIFICALLY last night as being helpful and the type we should focus on. Once again you have met and exceeded my expectations and I am sincerely thankful. This is exactly the type of post I was seeking. I have asked the forum managers if I can edit my first post but it seems this is impossible so I have had to add layer after layer when to me this all seems quite understandable. Unusual certainly, but then I spent at least 25 paragraphs admitting I was blown away by it. Since then everyone has agreed. But with a more and more cynical tone until I am left with words like scammer. Which really isn't nice. I am afraid it does reflect very poorly on the calibre of many of the people replying and as you say, after 5 relies in a row calling the whole thing suspect I don't think it is unreasonable that I try to offer a 'defence'. But should I be needing to defend myself if people are trying to help?

Sadly as this has continued today, given the fact we are likely to be heavily reliant on the opinion of others, and this avenue is seemingly fraught with criticism (by your own admission) it looks more and more dubious. 

I would be more than happy to communicate by DM if you are willing to stay with me to follow this to its conclusion? Hedge.


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## ester (24 October 2019)

The only reason words like that come up is because people are aware of similar situations where that has been the case and would think it remiss of themselves not to mention it in such a situation that it might be a possibility.

(you can edit posts but only for a certain period of time) - it used to be very short but is longer now (half hour/hour at a guess!)


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## HedgePig (24 October 2019)

9tails said:



			Capriole is there a horse rears then kicks out its back legs.  The exact same move that you described in your post.  Haute Ecole is the school that teaches these moves.  They're attempting to educate you.

We're not impressed with stallions or owners of stallions.  Stallions need special arrangements, places with very good fencing if they're going to have any kind of life.  Going off to clinics may be difficult with your stallion if mares are present.  You can't expect other owners to be pleased to be faced with a stallion if their in season mare plays up.  This wouldn't happen with geldings.  That's why most people at pleasure level have mares or geldings.
		
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This final message comes through loud and clear. If you aren't going to breed with a stallion, all you are doing is being perceived like a thin bloke with a pitbull. Your words are clear, "we (as a horse community?) are not impressed with stallions or owners of stallions". That tells me all I need to know about how me and this horse (or any stallion) is likely to be perceived in the wider horse community, which is an important component of horse ownership. Fewer people seem to come to the defence of well-behaved stallions, where again I suspect my Pitbill analogy is probably quite accurate.


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## ester (24 October 2019)

umm you seem to be extending that 'we' to the wider horse community, that's a pretty big leap.


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## HedgePig (24 October 2019)

ester said:



			umm you seem to be extending that 'we' to the wider horse community, that's a pretty big leap.
		
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9tails said exactly this, "We're not impressed with stallions or owners of stallions."

I put wider community to a '?' leaving the option that this may not in fact be with wider community but then that would be for 9tails to qualify who 'we' are should they wish to.


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## splashgirl45 (24 October 2019)

HP,  you are taking offence at posts by very knowledgeable people on here and many know the pitfalls of owning a stallion.  i have been lucky and have only handled 2 stallions which were owned by my friend and they were very well behaved and could be ridden amongst mares with no problems..i have also spent many hours at catherston stud where jennie loriston clarke had quite a few stallions and the most badly behaved was a pony stallion who was quite a handful.  jennies big  stallions were all well behaved because she was ,and still is, a professional and knew exactly what she was doing.  please dont flounce off,  it would be nice to know how you get on this weekend and what you will be doing...


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## ester (24 October 2019)

You also said 'That tells me all I need to know about how me and this horse (or any stallion) is likely to be perceived in the wider horse community ' which is the bit I was responding to.
Stop being over dramatic then


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## Palindrome (24 October 2019)

Just go and ride him, you'll know whether you like him, love him or don't really care about him. The fact that he is a stallion will probably be more of an inconvenience, but one that could be overcome (or he could just be gelded, utlimately if they sold him on it is probably that they didn't think his contribution to the breed would be that interesting).
Now just keep in mind that your friend has a vested interest in this, as he'll be receiving money so take things with a pinch of salt and go with what you see of the horse, he might be a dobbin he might be a fire breathing dragon, we can't tell.


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## HedgePig (24 October 2019)

ester said:



			You also said 'That tells me all I need to know about how me and this horse (or any stallion) is likely to be perceived in the wider horse community ' which is the bit I was responding to.
Stop being over dramatic then 

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Ha ha I am trying to sound like I understand!! I really am not winning here!!


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## Nasicus (24 October 2019)

I've kind skimmed the rest of the thread and it's all got very jumbled, so I'll just reply to the original post.
Everyone who owns a Stallion at some point has been a first time Stallion Owner. And as such, there will be a good amount of learning, and probably mistakes too.
As long as you can *A. *Ensure a good quality of life and accommodation for the Stallion and *B. *Have access to and supervision from experienced Stallion owners to help you, then I don't see why, with your background, you can't give it a go.

I'm not going to comment riding wise, as plenty of people own horses but don't ride them, or have them ridden by others, and I can imagine your GF will be riding him regularly with the current owner/instructor whilst you get back into the swing of things (But I'm speculating here!).

We're all new to everything at some point, it how we go about it that determines how successful or not we are.


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## Queenbee (24 October 2019)

HedgePig said:



			This final message comes through loud and clear. If you aren't going to breed with a stallion, all you are doing is being perceived like a thin bloke with a pitbull. Your words are clear, "we (as a horse community?) are not impressed with stallions or owners of stallions". That tells me all I need to know about how me and this horse (or any stallion) is likely to be perceived in the wider horse community, which is an important component of horse ownership. Fewer people seem to come to the defence of well-behaved stallions, where again I suspect my Pitbill analogy is probably quite accurate.
		
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It is not at all accurate, it almost seems like you are willfully misinterpreting people which I am sure could not be the case.

You must understand this... we live in a horse rich world  in the UK, by that I mean we have far too many.  Horses of decent calibre are in want of a good home because to be blunt there are way more horses than good homes.  No matter how you want to cut it, a stallion's main reason for being is to breed, whether you as an owner choose to breed it or not.  Some are kept entire to see if they can make a name for themselves and then if the do, they are bred from.  Many people's perspectives would simply put be this: it is reasonable to expect a breeder to keep a stallion for obvious reasons, it is also reasonable to expect the higher level competitive industry to keep younger upcoming horses entire to assess their suitability for breeding and then make a gelding choice later down the line.  But there is simply no rational for keeping a horse entire that is not going to be used to breed.  It just throws up added complications in the ownership and management of the animal which will most likely affect the animal itself.  And this is the reaction that you will be faced with if you have a horse for pleasure but keep it entire.  It will be frowned upon and there is no reasonable argument that you would be able to come up with to defend keeping him entire since he will not be a breeding prospect. 

So, in answer to stallion yes or no.  No.  In answer to the horse itself, I would cautiously explore, but only if I could hand on heart say that I intended to geld it.

Also, with the utmost respect to your OH, she has a horse, classical riding is more her thing, this is not a horse being purchased for her.  It is one for you to ride and enjoy.  It seems odd albeit well meaning of you to purchase a horse based on your OH's suitability to ride it.  These horses are beautiful and mesmerising but I am not entirely convinced from your background that it would be the right horse for you even if you had not had 20 years out of the saddle.  Now obviously I don't know you, but from your history that you have expanded on, it would seem far more up your street to perhaps go for a decent tb or tb x, that you can hack, jump do a bit of everything on.  If you wish to pursue a classical route do this on the side get some lessons from a good classical trainer on a schoolmaster and see if this is really something you want.  Personally I would never want to give up the adrenaline buzz of fast rides, soaring over jumps and wind in hair for tedious and frustrating schooling exercises.  It would frustrate me to death.  For some people it is all they love about riding but not for everyone.  I also would not want to dive straight in there without knowing for sure.

In short, I would say that stallion yes or no... no.  This horse in particular, probably no.  For your OH yes, sounds like its up her street and she has the technical capability in this sphere, but not for you from what you have said.  I would personally keep looking for a horse that suits your type of riding historically.


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## HedgePig (24 October 2019)

Prancer & Vixen/Grinch said:



			It is not at all accurate, it almost seems like you are willfully misinterpreting people which I am sure could not be the case.

You must understand this... we live in a horse rich world  in the UK, by that I mean we have far too many.  Horses of decent calibre are in want of a good home because to be blunt there are way more horses than good homes.  No matter how you want to cut it, a stallion's main reason for being is to breed, whether you as an owner choose to breed it or not.  Some are kept entire to see if they can make a name for themselves and then if the do, they are bred from.  Many people's perspectives would simply put be this: it is reasonable to expect a breeder to keep a stallion for obvious reasons, it is also reasonable to expect the higher level competitive industry to keep younger upcoming horses entire to assess their suitability for breeding and then make a gelding choice later down the line.  But there is simply no rational for keeping a horse entire that is not going to be used to breed.  It just throws up added complications in the ownership and management of the animal which will most likely affect the animal itself.  And this is the reaction that you will be faced with if you have a horse for pleasure but keep it entire.  It will be frowned upon and there is no reasonable argument that you would be able to come up with to defend keeping him entire since he will not be a breeding prospect.

So, in answer to stallion yes or no.  No.  In answer to the horse itself, I would cautiously explore, but only if I could hand on heart say that I intended to geld it.

Also, with the utmost respect to your OH, she has a horse, classical riding is more her thing, this is not a horse being purchased for her.  It is one for you to ride and enjoy.  It seems odd albeit well meaning of you to purchase a horse based on your OH's suitability to ride it.  These horses are beautiful and mesmerising but I am not entirely convinced from your background that it would be the right horse for you even if you had not had 20 years out of the saddle.  Now obviously I don't know you, but from your history that you have expanded on, it would seem far more up your street to perhaps go for a decent tb or tb x, that you can hack, jump do a bit of everything on.  If you wish to pursue a classical route do this on the side get some lessons from a good classical trainer on a schoolmaster and see if this is really something you want.  Personally I would never want to give up the adrenaline buzz of fast rides, soaring over jumps and wind in hair for tedious and frustrating schooling exercises.  It would frustrate me to death.  For some people it is all they love about riding but not for everyone.  I also would not want to dive straight in there without knowing for sure.

In short, I would say that stallion yes or no... no.  This horse in particular, probably no.  For your OH yes, sounds like its up her street and she has the technical capability in this sphere, but not for you from what you have said.  I would personally keep looking for a horse that suits your type of riding historically.
		
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Hi P&V/G,
I apologise if my reply seemed wilful, it seems the harder I am trying to understand people's opinion on a stallion, I swiftly receive a rebuke from someone on the other side of the argument. Starting to lose the will to live... 

This is a very reasonable post thank you, and it sets out the fact that I have not been actively in the saddle for some time, other than the odd hack a few times a year. Personally I am process and outcome driven as a personality so the idea of taking a year to achieve something through minute adjustments to enjoy success is exactly the sort of thing I love, but I would not be so bold as to assume that translates well into my riding personality. You also make a fair point about my gf and this horse but I agree we cannot curve fit this to meet my needs by proxy of her skills. 

Your point about too many horses already needing a good home is fair too. I have a rescue dog for exactly this reason who I adore. I shall give this some more thought, thank you. Hedge.


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## cundlegreen (24 October 2019)

tiggipop said:



			well my thoughts (having a stallion of my own!) if you have this opinion of stallions being demons etc how on earth are you going to manage to handle one?   mine is a total poppet, but is handled confidently, correctly and consistently and he KNOWS the boundaries.. He lives just as my geldings do,  but I have my own property and therefore he gets daily turnout with other horses around him and is stabled along side them.

I understand that in this country not many livery yards can/will accommodate stallions, which is fine.
		
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Another who has their own stallion, and has handled many stallions and colts over the years. Horses pick up so quickly on their handlers feelings. I would say no as you have no experience of them. Also, how big is this boy? most Lippizzaners are under 15 hands as I found out to my surprise when seeing John Lassetters' many years ago.


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## rara007 (24 October 2019)

Can we have a picture of this horse? Iâ€™m just nosey!


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## Kat (24 October 2019)

I can't help on the stallion issue other than to say that owning a mare cuts down my choice of yards so owning a stallion on livery must be very difficult. 

What I did want to say is before you go and see this horse have a very serious think about why you want to buy a horse and what you want to do with that and keep this firmly in mind at all times. 

Are you looking for:
A) a horse to get you back in the saddle after a long break that you can hack, have lessons on, go on pleasure rides, maybe even hunt and explore what if any competitive discipline suits you. 
B) a horse to progress your girlfriend's classical dressage skills
C) a horse to own while a professional trains/competes/shows it to a high standard and you are "the owner" 

All three are valid choices but the suitable horse in each case is different. Too many people intend to buy horse A or horse B (albeit normally for their own competition aims) but with the help of a friendly trainer end up with horse C. That doesn't necessarily mean the trainer is scamming them, it can be due to misunderstanding aims, or not matching horse to rider well, or not wanting to lose a good horse entirely when circumstances dictate they should sell. 

Many people end up buying horses that don't make them happy and aren't suitable for their needs. It is an expensive and time-consuming hobby if you aren't loving it. 

So pretend you haven't been offered this horse. Write down your hopes and dreams and aims for horse ownership. Then consider whether this is the horse to help you live those hopes and dreams.


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## ycbm (24 October 2019)

HP, I'm intrigued. What's changed in your life that you have barely ridden for 20 years in spite of having a girlfriend who owns a horse, and now want to go the whole hog and buy your own, potentially keeping  it in a different yard from your girlfriend's horse?  No worries if it's off topic and you don't want to discuss it. 

.


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## dree (24 October 2019)

HedgePig said:



			Thanks Leo. I have tried to explain but its absolutely clear that you believe this is a bad idea. I have put you in the 'no' column. Thank you. Hedge.
		
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## dree (24 October 2019)

eggs said:



			fyi I did reply earlier in this thread so I am not new to it.... (you even liked my last comment to help jog your memory)

Also I still think your gf is in a much better position to advise you as she knows you much better than a bunch of random people on a forum.

PS  you can put me in whichever column you wish it really doesn't bother me
		
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I think what H means is that she has two columns....for and against....yes and no (as to whether it's a good idea or not.)  And you are in the No column.  She did not mean offence.


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## dree (24 October 2019)

ycbm said:



			HP, I'm intrigued. What's changed in your life that you have barely ridden for 20 years in spite of having a girlfriend who owns a horse, and now want to go the whole hog and buy your own, potentially keeping  it in a different yard from your girlfriend's horse?  No worries if it's off topic and you don't want to discuss it. 

.
		
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Not the OP but I hadn't ridden for at least 10 years before I bought my TB nutter.  My reason was a horse that reared and landed backwards on me.....broke my back at T12/L1.....spent 6 months in hospital learning how to walk again.  Another few years recuperating.  Married a rich bloke.....bought my horse against everyone's advice.  I had NO muscle grip, but had a good seat and good balance.  So there can be many reasons.....all legit.


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## ycbm (25 October 2019)

dree said:



			Not the OP but I hadn't ridden for at least 10 years before I bought my TB nutter.  My reason was a horse that reared and landed backwards on me.....broke my back at T12/L1.....spent 6 months in hospital learning how to walk again.  Another few years recuperating.  Married a rich bloke.....bought my horse against everyone's advice.  I had NO muscle grip, but had a good seat and good balance.  So there can be many reasons.....all legit.
		
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You broke your back, didn't ride for five years, and then bought one without having ridden, not knowing whether you would be able to ride at all?

Breaks are common.  I had a five year break myself when I found boys and married. But I went to a riding school a few times before I bought horse. 

.


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## Hallo2012 (25 October 2019)

i havent read every reply so apologies if its been asked ....but OP have you considered what would happen if you fell off this horse (as is likely after such a break) in an none enclosed place?

having stallions brings all kinds of added pressures to even the most experienced rider, let alone a novice.


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## ycbm (25 October 2019)

HP,  being a new poster you may need to know that H2012 owns a stallion and her previous horse was also a stallion. She speaks from experience most of us don't have. 

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## dorsetladette (25 October 2019)

HedgePig said:



			This final message comes through loud and clear. If you aren't going to breed with a stallion, all you are doing is being perceived like a thin bloke with a pitbull. Your words are clear, "we (as a horse community?) are not impressed with stallions or owners of stallions". That tells me all I need to know about how me and this horse (or any stallion) is likely to be perceived in the wider horse community, which is an important component of horse ownership. Fewer people seem to come to the defence of well-behaved stallions, where again I suspect my Pitbill analogy is probably quite accurate.
		
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I wasn't going to post on this thread for reasons that I won't go into, but I for one will jump to the defence of stallions who are handled correctly and with the respect they deserve. My parents ran a very successful stud until the break up of their marriage (business more successful then relationship) and I was luck enough to ride a lot of incredibly well schooled and educated stallions. The youngest stallion was kept after the stud was disolved for me to ride. I had him from being 18 months old until 24 when a field accident meant he was PTS. He was kept out on a livery yard and in later years on land I rented with a friend. He was respectful of fences and was kept in close proximity to mares and gelding. My daughter learnt to ride on him, he was like a donkey on the beach with her. He had his quirks and was handled carefully by experienced people. 
I took him to local shows and county shows and he behaved impeccably at all (even tho he was welsh!! ) - I wouldn't expect it any other way. We won a championship at a show, while the judges were deciding (it took ages) he fell asleep in the line up. The 2 judges didn't even realise he was entire until the prize giving. 
I might add that my old boy was used at stud and knew exactly what it was all about, but also knew wish bridle meant 'ladies' and which bridle meant 'work' 

But its horses for courses, and when all said and done OP you have said you haven't ridden for 20 years even tho when you did you were competent. If I were in your shoe's I would jump at the chance of the ride of this amazing sounding animal, but I would be cautious of the day to day care. Stallions need to be handled by people with experience the same as youngster do.


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## TheMule (25 October 2019)

We had a novice livery import a 6yr old stallion from Portugal. The guy was a bit too heavy for the horse and far too unbalanced due to his lack of riding experience. He worked really hard on improving, he only rode the horse in lessons initially, the horse was schooled regularly by us and he did improve, but the horse became gradually more difficult to manage as his whole world had changed dramatically. In the end he was given to us and he brought a lovely generous mare instead which was a much better fit for everyone.


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## Hallo2012 (25 October 2019)

ycbm said:



			HP,  being a new poster you may need to know that H2012 owns a stallion and her previous horse was also a stallion. She speaks from experience most of us don't have.

.
		
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cheers 

i would hasten to add that i AM lucky with the cyrrent one, and even the previous big lad...........both would have settled on a quiet livery yard with no issues and the current boy especially is very biddable and easily handled by anyone, and even if put i a tricky situation he would never put a toe out of line.

BUT.....we owned both since 2yo and they were extremely well socialised and used to full body contact with other horses, and being towed around and tied up right next to them, being allowed to touch and sniff and groom..........you may find yours has not had the same upbringing (i dont know) and thus isnt so safe to allow that degree of interaction-accidental or otherwise.

which brings me to my next point....we dont know what we dont know. we all have to learn. but i am not sure a mature stallion on a livery yard is the place to be making mistakes.
I only have to watch my OH handle my pony stallion to know that a bigger horse, on a busy yard and a handler with no stallion experience would be annoying at best and dangerous at worst............and he has the benefit of a very forgiving stallion and a very strict trainer (me!) but still after 4 years wouldnt be able to handle a 16hh+ stallion in public.


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## HedgePig (25 October 2019)

Hallo2012 said:



			i havent read every reply so apologies if its been asked ....but OP have you considered what would happen if you fell off this horse (as is likely after such a break) in an none enclosed place?

having stallions brings all kinds of added pressures to even the most experienced rider, let alone a novice.
		
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Hi H2012,
The short answer is until I meet him and ride him I have absolutely no idea.  Over the years I have ridden horses that freeze when you fall off, others that head home no matter what (usually at a high rate of knots), other bounce around a bit then settle. So for the moment I have no idea but I expect at some point I am going to fall off and will need to have thought about this, as might any sensible rider, before I get there. So much depends on one thing which then determines the next its all speculation until I get there. Happy to let you know how it goes when we meet.


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## HedgePig (25 October 2019)

Hallo2012 said:



			cheers 

i would hasten to add that i AM lucky with the cyrrent one, and even the previous big lad...........both would have settled on a quiet livery yard with no issues and the current boy especially is very biddable and easily handled by anyone, and even if put i a tricky situation he would never put a toe out of line.

BUT.....we owned both since 2yo and they were extremely well socialised and used to full body contact with other horses, and being towed around and tied up right next to them, being allowed to touch and sniff and groom..........you may find yours has not had the same upbringing (i dont know) and thus isnt so safe to allow that degree of interaction-accidental or otherwise.

which brings me to my next point....we dont know what we dont know. we all have to learn. but i am not sure a mature stallion on a livery yard is the place to be making mistakes.
I only have to watch my OH handle my pony stallion to know that a bigger horse, on a busy yard and a handler with no stallion experience would be annoying at best and dangerous at worst............and he has the benefit of a very forgiving stallion and a very strict trainer (me!) but still after 4 years wouldnt be able to handle a 16hh+ stallion in public.
		
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Hi again H2012,
Your last paragraph is probably the one that I am drawn to the most. He is not a small horse by breed standard and has a neck like a tree trunk. If your husband, under your expert tutelage is still unable to safely manage a stallion after 4 years of guidance, the bottom line is with the best will in the world I will simply not be able to handle him even if he is mild-mannered, as you have described your own horse. That *REALLY* scares me. And I do not want to start my relationship with any horse in a state of fear. In my own mind if I get the sense I am just making too many schoolboy errors from the start (despite not being a complete novice) then I doubt again I shall follow through. If I walk into the stall with him and the owner gives me more than perhaps a handful of 'corrections' I *MUST* accept that this horse is beyond me for the moment. If your husband can't crack it, I'm screwed. 

How on earth do people even start with these animals? No wonder there are such opposing positions on what one might expect.


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## Amymay (25 October 2019)

How on earth do people even start with these animals? No wonder there are such opposing positions on what one might expect.
		
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Not many people do, as thereâ€™s simply no need.  However those with the most experience are those who, like you, have worked at studs.


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## HedgePig (25 October 2019)

amymay said:



			Not many people do, as thereâ€™s simply no need.  However those with the most experience are those who, like you, have worked at studs.
		
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It was a TB stud. And as someone else correctly joined the dots it was for the track. At the risk of oversimplifying, the aim was to get them steady enough that they wouldn't go completely bonkers when they carried a load and they were happy to run like mad. I kept two of my own horses at the facility who were trained for eventing and I was very, very fortune to be surrounded by highly qualified people. Both geldings. But, as I have said a few times, when it came to the stallions they were only ever really around when it was time to cover and my take on them was not the same as I have seen subsequently. Ergo my question: I clearly have a lot to learn. We didn't 'keep' stallions at the yard (there was a breeding shed if thats the right term where we would take mares to be serviced by Stallions that were trucked in, or sometimes we would take the mares to the stallion) but I want to be clear, I have not worked around them where they were a regular fixture at the yard.


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## AShetlandBitMeOnce (25 October 2019)

Hallo2012 said:



			i havent read every reply so apologies if its been asked ....but OP have you considered what would happen if you fell off this horse (as is likely after such a break) in an none enclosed place?

having stallions brings all kinds of added pressures to even the most experienced rider, let alone a novice.
		
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This is an interesting consideration re: Stallion ownership that I have never thought about.. And I have been around plenty and have ridden a couple of them (although never owned one myself).  Just goes to show that it really is the small details that don't cross your mind that can make a huge difference!


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## HedgePig (25 October 2019)

AShetlandBitMeOnce said:



			This is an interesting consideration re: Stallion ownership that I have never thought about.. And I have been around plenty and have ridden a couple of them (although never owned one myself).  Just goes to show that it really is the small details that don't cross your mind that can make a huge difference!
		
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I chuckled at your username. That makes you already more qualified than me, I have not been bitten by a Shetland. 
It's a good question and while not scientific, I have had horses do any number of things when I fell off. It would depend on the fall, how badly I fell, where I fell. In an area, no big deal. Outside the paddock, tricky unless I managed to retain a reign in a hand. If I was thrown clear it would often mean the horse bolted all the way home. Others would just stop and graze. I have no idea if a stallion is more or less likely to do all or any of these things. Other than gaining the knowledge roughly 0.3 seconds AFTER I needed it.


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## Bs_mum (25 October 2019)

I donâ€™t care how well trained he is, heâ€™s still a horse, heâ€™s an animal. Not a robot. Heâ€™ll have good days and heâ€™ll have bad days like any horse, & if he decides one day he really likes the look of that mare thatâ€™s in season, heâ€™ll be there, and there will be very little you can do to stop him. And if you can stop him, youâ€™re then faced with a cross stallion at the end of a lead rope & believe me, thatâ€™s terrifying. By your own admission, you havenâ€™t ridden for 20 years, I would assume your interaction with horses during that time have been minimal. Itâ€™s an amazing opportunity I agree, but heâ€™s not the right horse for you in your current situation.


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## HedgePig (25 October 2019)

Bs_mum said:



			I donâ€™t care how well trained he is, heâ€™s still a horse, heâ€™s an animal. Not a robot. Heâ€™ll have good days and heâ€™ll have bad days like any horse, & if he decides one day he really likes the look of that mare thatâ€™s in season, heâ€™ll be there, and there will be very little you can do to stop him. And if you can stop him, youâ€™re then faced with a cross stallion at the end of a lead rope & believe me, thatâ€™s terrifying. By your own admission, you havenâ€™t ridden for 20 years, I would assume your interaction with horses during that time have been minimal. Itâ€™s an amazing opportunity I agree, but heâ€™s not the right horse for you in your current situation.
		
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Hi BS_m and thanks for your thoughts. You are right of course and given you sound like you have been on the business end of a lead reign with a cranky stallion I must take your experience into consideration. I have tried to explain that its not quite as 'green' a setup as I may have initially described, but I can't be almost pregnant here I am either experienced or I am not. And as of right now you are correct, I am not. And certainly where stallions are concerned I am a complete and certifiable novice. Again, a fact. 
You have been (politely) added to the rather more lengthy 'no' column in my list. Thank you again. Hedge.


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## milliepops (25 October 2019)

HedgePig said:



			Hi H2012,
The short answer is until I meet him and ride him I have absolutely no idea.  Over the years I have ridden horses that freeze when you fall off, others that head home no matter what (usually at a high rate of knots), other bounce around a bit then settle. So for the moment I have no idea but I expect at some point I am going to fall off and will need to have thought about this, as might any sensible rider, before I get there. So much depends on one thing which then determines the next its all speculation until I get there. Happy to let you know how it goes when we meet.
		
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I don't know, but i would think H2012 is thinking less about the practicalities of whether said horse will stand there and look at you or not, but the potential liabilities of a stallion running away loose and the issues that presents that are in addition to those when a mare or gelding runs off.


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## Amymay (25 October 2019)

milliepops said:



			I don't know, but i would think H2012 is thinking less about the practicalities of whether said horse will stand there and look at you or not, but the potential liabilities of a stallion running away loose and the issues that presents that are in addition to those when a mare or gelding runs off.
		
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Yes, thatâ€™s what I thought too.


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## HedgePig (25 October 2019)

milliepops said:



			I don't know, but i would think H2012 is thinking less about the practicalities of whether said horse will stand there and look at you or not, but the potential liabilities of a stallion running away loose and the issues that presents that are in addition to those when a mare or gelding runs off.
		
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I actually smiled at that. It did cross my mind that he might tear off in search of a good time. But I must admit I dismissed it as unlikely. Again, not something I had considered, that the moment they are set free they will run off looking to get laid. Got to appreciate that sort of tenacity of course!  But absolutely right, not something you are likely to be able to stop if thats what he has in mind. I wonder if anyone has any experience of their stallion running off and what happened?

EDIT: If keeping a stallion means you can't ever expose him to the outside world then that's not really the life I would want for my horse, or any horse.


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## ihatework (25 October 2019)

AShetlandBitMeOnce said:



			This is an interesting consideration re: Stallion ownership that I have never thought about.. And I have been around plenty and have ridden a couple of them (although never owned one myself).  Just goes to show that it really is the small details that don't cross your mind that can make a huge difference!
		
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Its a huge consideration.
I was at Gatcombe this year when a stallion fell in the sj warm up and got loose. He jumped the ropes and had access to the lorry park / main sj ring / Xc course, depending on which direction he fancied (and he wasnâ€™t seeking to be caught).

luckily he was cornered pretty quickly and I caught him amid screeches from afar â€˜heâ€™s a stallion heâ€™s a stallionâ€™ - Iâ€™ve done plenty of stud work and was the best place to get hold of him, but his poor connections didnâ€™t know me from adam so probably had mild heart failure at Joe bloggs cornering their boy


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## Bs_mum (25 October 2019)

HedgePig said:



			Hi BS_m and thanks for your thoughts. You are right of course and given you sound like you have been on the business end of a lead reign with a cranky stallion I must take your experience into consideration. I have tried to explain that its not quite as 'green' a setup as I may have initially described, but I can't be almost pregnant here I am either experienced or I am not. And as of right now you are correct, I am not. And certainly where stallions are concerned I am a complete and certifiable novice. Again, a fact.
You have been (politely) added to the rather more lengthy 'no' column in my list. Thank you again. Hedge.
		
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Iâ€™ve been at then end of many lead reins attached to cranky stallions and its frightening, even for the most experienced owner. 
Get a horse by all means, but get something you can enjoy. All horses have their moments, difference being that if a stallion gets away from you as a handler, you could potentially be in a whole word of trouble if it decides to cover a mare, or a fight breaks out if that mare decides she doesnâ€™t want to be covered by said stallion. I canâ€™t imagine any owner would be particularly happy if an accident was to occur!


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## milliepops (25 October 2019)

Might make you smile but there'd be a lot of hot water if he found his way to mares and potential for a nasty & expensive accident if their handlers were around at the same time.
Those of us who've been around horses long enough know that if something can go wrong, eventually it will go wrong


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## HedgePig (25 October 2019)

Bs_mum said:



			Iâ€™ve been at then end of many lead reins attached to cranky stallions and its frightening, even for the most experienced owner.
Get a horse by all means, but get something you can enjoy. All horses have their moments, difference being that if a stallion gets away from you as a handler, you could potentially be in a whole word of trouble if it decides to cover a mare, or a fight breaks out if that mare decides she doesnâ€™t want to be covered by said stallion. I canâ€™t imagine any owner would be particularly happy if an accident was to occur!
		
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You are right. It sounds awful to be planning all of this with the worst case scenario in everything, but I need to be realistic. I had a good friend get thrown on a hack (small fluffy dog dashed out while she was actually changing the length of a stirrup) and he was left standing on the ground. The horse bolted, across a busy road and was struck by a truck. Horse survived but it did cause a great deal of drama. In her case her insurance paid out but it changed her attitude to hacking out permanently. So its a fair point.


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## HedgePig (25 October 2019)

milliepops said:



			Might make you smile but there'd be a lot of hot water if he found his way to mares and potential for a nasty & expensive accident if their handlers were around at the same time.
Those of us who've been around horses long enough know that if something can go wrong, eventually it will go wrong 

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I was trying to inject a little brevity in an otherwise serious topic. I did not mean to make light of it. Is it fair to say you are probably in the 'no' column Millie? Hedge


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## Asha (25 October 2019)

Im curious now Hedge, how many nos and how many yes's have you tallied up, and what is your plan ?


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## HedgePig (25 October 2019)

ihatework said:



			Its a huge consideration.
I was at Gatcombe this year when a stallion fell in the sj warm up and got loose. He jumped the ropes and had access to the lorry park / main sj ring / Xc course, depending on which direction he fancied (and he wasnâ€™t seeking to be caught).

luckily he was cornered pretty quickly and I caught him amid screeches from afar â€˜heâ€™s a stallion heâ€™s a stallionâ€™ - Iâ€™ve done plenty of stud work and was the best place to get hold of him, but his poor connections didnâ€™t know me from adam so probably had mild heart failure at Joe bloggs cornering their boy
		
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Hi IHW and thanks for joining the thread. 
So in your experience stallions are almost certain to seek out a mare if they break free? I understand there are several variables at play here, a hack in a remote forest v a show ring but I am interested in your answer please? Hedge.


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## HedgePig (25 October 2019)

Asha said:



			Im curious now Hedge, how many nos and how many yes's have you tallied up, and what is your plan ?
		
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No's outnumber yes by a ratio of 7:1 
And that's giving any 'yes' a bounce to the column when the answer has been something like 'it takes a lot and its probably not a good idea but you have got to start somewhere'.


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## ihatework (25 October 2019)

HedgePig said:



			Hi IHW and thanks for joining the thread.
So in your experience stallions are almost certain to seek out a mare if they break free? I understand there are several variables at play here, a hack in a remote forest v a show ring but I am interested in your answer please? Hedge.
		
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I think my response is you can never accurately predict what a stallion (or any horses) response is going to be if they are in a situation that is adrenaline fuelled / they are scared etc. In those situations they are more likely to act out of character. The thing is you then need an added layer of skill on hand to deal with a loose stallion as opposed to a loose gelding.

ETA: Iâ€™ve got a pipe dream where Iâ€™d have an Iberian stallion. Iâ€™m confident in my own ability to ride and handle but Iâ€™m reliant on livery. Iâ€™m afraid I just couldnâ€™t guarantee giving a stallion a suitable quality of life on livery hence the pipe dream, and am in the no camp.


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## milliepops (25 October 2019)

Not for me to say one way or the other.  Can only speak personally, which is that without my own land I wouldn't even consider a stallion.  my own field is full of mares so that's no use and I'd have to pay through the nose for suitable specialist livery. 
If you want the edginess of an entire animal then mares offer plenty but without the drawbacks.  I'd love the opportunity to obtain a highly trained horse so that would appeal but tbh the additional faff would make it a no for me on a personal level.


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## Tiddlypom (25 October 2019)

ihatework said:



			luckily he was cornered pretty quickly and I caught him amid screeches from afar â€˜heâ€™s a stallion heâ€™s a stallionâ€™
		
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Iâ€™ve wrangled a loose stallion before, it does up the heart rate a bit . A young Fellow Fuego got loose at an affil dressage  competion in the lorry park at Field House. He then legged it out onto the main road outside the venue and carried on away up the road. Iâ€™d just mounted my lad and set off after him. I can remember the screeches of â€˜Stop him, heâ€™s a stallionâ€™. Iâ€™m very glad that I was riding a gelding and not a mare, as when I managed to catch FF we ended up nose to tail, me half out of the saddle to hold both set of reins and FF started sniffing my ladâ€™s nethers to see if he was in luck . I have never been so relieved to have someone take a horse off me.

So donâ€™t underestimate the danger of a loose entire. ETA And in retrospect it was damn silly of me to try. It could easily have ended up with two loose horses and a squashed would be rescuer.


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## Equi (25 October 2019)

Canâ€™t be bothered with a big reply. No from me based solely on the fact you have no knowledge of handling stallions in a mixed sex uk livery yard.


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## HedgePig (25 October 2019)

equi said:



			Canâ€™t be bothered with a big reply. No from me based solely on the fact you have no knowledge of handling stallions in a mixed sex uk livery yard.
		
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Thank you.


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## ester (25 October 2019)

Will we get a graph, I'd like a good bar chart with error bars


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## AShetlandBitMeOnce (25 October 2019)

Tiddlypom said:



			So donâ€™t underestimate the danger of a loose entire.
		
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A bit off topic but I remember being present when a huge Charolais bull got loose at the South of England show when they were being unloaded, luckily the day before the public arrived. I remember how scary that was as it careered up the side of the lines tents as we all hid inside, and was eventually enticed to an enclosed space by a brave, older Young Farmer with a hefer.

Entire animals of any species can be pretty scary.


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## HedgePig (25 October 2019)

ester said:



			Will we get a graph, I'd like a good bar chart with error bars 

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Ha ha don't joke I am a big fan of a macro!


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## dree (25 October 2019)

ycbm said:



			You broke your back, didn't ride for five years, and then bought one without having ridden, not knowing whether you would be able to ride at all?

Breaks are common.  I had a five year break myself when I found boys and married. But I went to a riding school a few times before I bought horse.

.
		
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10 years, hun.  I wasn't capable of walking for a year....I then spent years building up muscle again...just walking.  Had a couple of shots on the lunge on a friend's youngster....about four times maybe.  So, nope, no riding for 10 years.  Why wouldn't I be able to ride?  I was pretty good before my accident.  I had absolutely no doubt.


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## Hallo2012 (25 October 2019)

Dont get me wrong i HAVE come off both of mine, what i was sort of saying though is that you need to be as sure as you can that this will be a one off, and a 20 year gap is probably going to bring a few novicey wobbles off, especially at the start and you need to consider who else that puts at risk as well as you and him.

as i said both mine were VERY well socialised and unlikely to charge off and mount something, more likely to nose sniff and then eat grass BUT i have also ridden a couple for other people that 100% would go and mount the nearest horse with no polite introductions first and i also know of a lady whose stallion launched straight on to a mare that spooked in to his path in the warm up......so it DOES happen.

how much do you know about his general social demeanor? has he covered, and if so AI, naturally or running with mares?

does he have regular social contact with other horses?

is he used to smelling mares and seeing mares and working with mares?

if he does cover, do you know how to keep the two jobs separate in his mind? if he isnt well socialized do you have a plan to improve this?

ive worked with both ends of the spectrum and all the grey areas in between-i know a super dressage stallion that can do natural cover in the morning and go to a show in the PM and not even flick and ear and i know a SJ stallion that cannot be handled by anybody that has handled a mare in those clothes or he tries to mount them/anything he can get to and has to be led by two people at all time when out his box.
i know a pony stallion that ran out with mares for 6 years and in first season under saddle did juniors with a 12yo and also i used to ride one that had to be chain tied and handled with a whip at all time.


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## ycbm (25 October 2019)

dree said:



			10 years, hun.  I wasn't capable of walking for a year....I then spent years building up muscle again...just walking.  Had a couple of shots on the lunge on a friend's youngster....about four times maybe.  So, nope, no riding for 10 years.  Why wouldn't I be able to ride?  I was pretty good before my accident.  I had absolutely no doubt.
		
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Please don't address me as a ravaging nomad ðŸ¤®

Why wouldn't you be able to ride after breaking your back? What a strange question.  
.


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## chaps89 (25 October 2019)

In regards to the simple question to having a stallion [on a UK livery yard] it's a no.
OP have a read through 2 recent threads on the forum - 1 from Shavings and one from Caol Ila. Both have recently moved to yards (1 of them with a special needs horse) that seemed great but had to move pretty promptly.
Personally I have a horse who is tricky to livery (she will jump fences/gates/stable doors if left on her own/she perceives she will be left alone, AND has metabolic/dietary issues) and never again would I take one on who can't easily/comfortably go onto most livery yards. A stallion falls into that category for me. 
Most livery yards simply aren't set up to cater for stallions which will make your options slim. 
Yes you've already found somewhere, but what if, like the 2 posters I've highlighted, you have to move on quickly, what then.


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## Caol Ila (25 October 2019)

Chaps89 makes a great point.  The next horse I buy will be so damned laid back about its living situation that it's horizontal.  If I own one more horse that I can't throw onto any livery yard that I like, I'm going to be institutionalised.  Stallions, no matter how well mannered, most certainly fit that category.


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## onebigjump (25 October 2019)

I own a stallion (albeit a Shetland). I have had him since he was 8 months old, he is now 12. He has lived out with mares, geldings and other stallions with no problems. My 4 Yr old niece is able to handle and ride him (under very close supervision!). He is for the most part very amenable and easy to handle. But on the very rare occasion he has thrown a wobly, I've watched 2 grown men struggle to handle him!
I'd also add that I keep him on private land that I rent, I have never and probably would not put him on a livery yard.
I also work with stallions from time to time. Most are the same as any horse with correct handling, others you can not get in the stable with!
I would certainly not say no to owning another stallion but personally I would only have one from a very young age.


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## Abi90 (25 October 2019)

AShetlandBitMeOnce said:



			This is an interesting consideration re: Stallion ownership that I have never thought about.. And I have been around plenty and have ridden a couple of them (although never owned one myself).  Just goes to show that it really is the small details that don't cross your mind that can make a huge difference!
		
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Iâ€™ve fallen off 2 stallions... they both stood patiently next to me whilst I got back up even the one that winded me


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## dree (25 October 2019)

ycbm said:



			Please don't address me as a ravaging nomad ðŸ¤®

Why wouldn't you be able to ride after breaking your back? What a strange question.
.
		
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Why is it a strange question?  The only way I could walk, and then ride, was because the break was incomplete.  A complete break would have left me incapable of walking at all.  And in what way did I address you as a ravaging nomad?  (Whatever the hell that is.)

I take it you don't understand what a broken back entails.


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## Meowy Catkin (25 October 2019)

dree said:



			And in what way did I address you as a ravaging nomad?  (Whatever the hell that is.)
		
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			Hun
/hÊŒn/
noun
1.
a member of a warlike Asiatic nomadic people who invaded and ravaged Europe in the 4thâ€“5th centuries.
		
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I thought it was funny anyway.


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## ester (25 October 2019)

me too  I've lodged that for future use


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## ycbm (25 October 2019)

You're too young to know that Germans were called the Hun during the war, after nomadic hordes that ravaged Europe earlier in history?

There are plenty of people who have injured their backs who still walk but find riding far too painful. You were lucky.

.


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## dree (25 October 2019)

Faracat said:



			I thought it was funny anyway. 

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Oh, ffs.


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## Meowy Catkin (25 October 2019)

dree said:



			Oh, ffs.
		
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I don't understand why you are upset? A lot of people don't like being called 'hun' and I thought that YBCM had expressed that she didn't like it in a funny way using an alternative meaning of the word. I didn't read her post as anything other than a bit tongue in cheek.


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## dree (25 October 2019)

ycbm said:



			You're too young to know that Germans were called the Hun during the war, after nomadic hordes that ravaged Europe earlier in history?

There are plenty of people who have injured their backs who still walk but find riding far too painful. You were lucky.

.
		
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So you still associate the word "hun" with the Germans in the war?  (Because I don't.)  Lots of people use that term when "speaking" to me and it's a term of endearment....like love, hen, whatever.  Broken back....lucky?.....yes, I was lucky it was incomplete.


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## dree (25 October 2019)

Faracat said:



			I don't understand why you are upset? A lot of people don't like being called 'hun' and I thought that YBCM had expressed that she didn't like it in a funny way using an alternative meaning of the word. I didn't read her post as anything other than a bit tongue in cheek.
		
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Hard to tell on this forum, to be honest.


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## Mrs. Jingle (25 October 2019)

As someone who also bristles the moment someone calls me 'hun' I did think ycbm's way of informing you she really does not like that term of address was very funny and quite clever and really no big deal.  

I think the term broke my back or broke my neck instantly brings the mental picture of someone confined to a wheelchair and lucky to wiggle their toes let alone ride a horse again.  As someone who broke my neck many years ago in a horse riding accident I can confirm that not all 'breaks' are the classic end of life as we know it and very many people go one to recover and get back to their former level of riding.  that needs saying for those out there that might be in the middle of recuperation and rehab - many, many do recover and recover extremely well depending on severity and area of the 'break' . Having said that i can barely turn my head to look behind me out riding and I get neck pain to some degree most days now - but it was all 30 odd years ago so no biggy in the grand scheme of getting old.


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## dree (25 October 2019)

MrsJingle said:



			As someone who also bristles the moment someone calls me 'hun' I did think ycbm's way of informing you she really does not like that term of address was very funny and quite clever and really no big deal. 

I think the term broke my back or broke my neck instantly brings the mental picture of someone confined to a wheelchair and lucky to wiggle their toes let alone ride a horse again.  As someone who broke my neck many years ago in a horse riding accident I can confirm that not all 'breaks' are the classic end of life as we know it and very many people go one to recover and get back to their former level of riding.  that needs saying for those out there that might be in the middle of recuperation and rehab - many, many do recover and recover extremely well depending on severity and area of the 'break' . Having said that i can barely turn my head to look behind me out riding and I get neck pain to some degree most days now - but it was all 30 odd years ago so no biggy in the grand scheme of getting old.
		
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I used to "bristle" at the term too.  But on one site I'm on, it's used frequently and with deep concern, so I've got used to it, and obviously use it.  For your info.....I can barely move my toes, and I can't feel my feet at all.  My legs have "strange" feelings......hard to tell the difference between extreme hot and cold.  I'm currently in a wheelchair, but nothing to do with my back (ironic) but when I was mobile, and hopefully mobile again soon, I did have back pain, for which I used cbd.  Other side-effects, but not going there.   I know someone who broke their neck, but the nerves weren't touched......lucky sod.   So, yes, depends on the level of the break, and how much the nerve was torn/broken, etc.  Glad to hear that you only suffer from your neck.  Try cbd oil....seriously.


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## Cinnamontoast (25 October 2019)

Never met a nasty stallion yet. I was on a competition yard for a while, the owners had lots of KWPNs. They were turned out individually away from the others and took precedence in the school. Obviously, we were told to keep in season mares away. You might want to seek out a geldings only yard, there are one or two round my way. 

As everyone else, Iâ€™d be worried about the limited options for yards and the perception that stallions are lunatics. The Friesian stabled next to me wasnâ€™t a pick of bother, but had his own turnout behind his box. His owner was very confident and took no nonsense from him.

My other concern is that youâ€™d be buying this horse because the owner has flattered you, not because itâ€™s the best horse for you. Youâ€™re used to TBs, why do you now want a Lippizaner who is trained up to the Spanish riding school standard? You admit you wonâ€™t be doing that with him, so why buy him when there will be much cheaper options which arenâ€™t a pain to house.

Your gf sounds like sheâ€™s in a good position to help you find something suitable. Youâ€™re paying big money: what if you and the owner donâ€™t see eye to eye on the training/care etc? Will you be forever linked/obliged to refer to him in future?


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## Velcrobum (25 October 2019)

I will admit I have not read the whole thread in detail but I assume by some of your phrases you are from USA. I do not know how stallions are kept in USA but if you are thinking of UK and with your apparent level of knowledge you could very very easily find yourself in all types of trouble. Just because it's flashy and can do fancy things is not a good reason in any way to buy a stallion. OH used to work in ITU who had in an experienced female stud groom who died of her injuries when a stallion that was deemed calm and of very equable temperament attacked without warning and totally savaged her. Stallions are for not someone coming back after a 20 year break from horses.


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## aliby (25 October 2019)

I think one other aspect of finding a yard that will take your stallion is that it is likely that it will have other stallions, which makes it more complicated than having your own horse on your own land.  I do know a training yard that has stallions on livery but the rules are very strict, they are only handled by staff, owners come in and ride but always organised in advance and with horse got ready by staff.  No coming in when you feel like riding, because they don't want an owner coming in and just dragging their stallion out of the stable at the wrong time.  So it is not just finding a livery yard, and one that offers decent care, it is would it have the sort of set up that you want for horse ownership.

Having said that SO much depends on the individual stallion, and I don't think all of it is down to their formative experience or how they are handled. Might be completely laid back or might try and kick the stable down at the slightest hint of another horse, and likely to take off with a rider on board if he thinks he's spotted a rival that he wants to kill.


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## Spottyappy (26 October 2019)

From me, itâ€™s a â€œnoâ€.
Unless you can livery at a yard with proper knowledge and facilities for a stallion, you will always have numpties and they cause issues, no matter how good the stallion is.
And, imho, a stallion should be no different to handle to any other horse IF it is treated correctly. However, there is always a risk of change of behaviour when an in season mare is anywhere near, and that is heightened IF he has been used to cover, in my past experience.


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## Fabled Thoroughbred (26 October 2019)

So, Iâ€™m not necessarily â€œyesâ€ or â€œno.â€ I would hold ANY horse to a few standards, ask certain questions, etc. myself, however.

1.). I may have missed this, but has he been bred before? 

2.). Can you afford buying the stallion(I think you established a yes on thatðŸ˜€ðŸ˜€), possibly paying extra should you like to show him, or possibly even for the board?

3.). Fully passing any veterinary inspection. There could be exceptions, but I doubt heâ€™d be able to do these things if he couldnâ€™t pass a vet check. Iâ€™d be mostly concerned if you plan on making him a sporthorse.

4.). Riding the horse for myself. I donâ€™t have a horse (I wish!!) but youâ€™ll probably know if youâ€™d like to move forwards after the initial few rides.

5.). Iâ€™m not sure where you live, but you can ask the seller if heâ€™d be willing to let you lease/trial the horse. Again, I donâ€™t know where you are, but Iâ€™d never buy a horse without â€œexperiencingâ€ owning the horse before I do it.

6.). What are your plans? Would you like to do Spanish dressage, show  jumping, 3-day eventing, hunters, or something else? Before Iâ€™d go look at a horse, Iâ€™d have a very in-depth discussion with my instructor (in your case, perhaps your girlfriend or her instructor) about what Iâ€™m going to do with the horse. I know P. R. E.s/Spanish horses excel differently than TBs & Hanoverians, so it might also be a good idea to try and find another P. R. E. breeder/trainer and get their take.

Good luck!!


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## splashgirl45 (26 October 2019)

i have just remembered (old age!!!!)  i used to work part time at a yard who had a tb stallion.  he was stabled in a small barn next to a gelding and with the other stables having 3 mares in..... he was turned out in a field next to the gelding and they could interact over the fence....he was really manic when he was covering but knew when the covering bridle came out and when a headcollar.  he was ok to lead in and out of the field but we were always careful that no mares were being turned out or bought in at the same time.  he was a sweetie in the stable and well behaved when being ridden even amongst in season mares.... .  luckily the owner was very strict about other horses when he was being turned out or bought in and as it was her yard, her rules were obeyed.......so it is quite a risk having a stallion on a livery yard if you dont have control of what others may do.


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## Nasicus (26 October 2019)

dree said:



			So you still associate the word "hun" with the Germans in the war?  (Because I don't.)  Lots of people use that term when "speaking" to me and it's a term of endearment....like love, hen, whatever.
		
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I associate being called 'hun' with an incoming sales pitch for some MLM product


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## Cortez (26 October 2019)

Don't ever call me "hun", it's flippant, insulting and infantile. Stallions are grand IF you know what you're doing; highly trained Lipizzaner stallions even more so. Stallions on a public livery yard in the UK, probably not a good idea, or even possible.


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## dree (26 October 2019)

Cortez said:



			Don't ever call me "hun", it's flippant, insulting and infantile.
		
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No, it's not.  I am on an excellent, caring, supportive site where nearly everyone calls everyone else "hun".  It's a term of care and love.  How sad that you see it in only one way.  (As I said before, I once didn't like it)....but I have since spoken to a lot of lovely, caring people who live tremendously difficult lives.  And, quite honestly, you are not fit to lick their boots never mind have an opinion on their expressions.


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## Cinnamontoast (26 October 2019)

dree said:



			No, it's not.  I am on an excellent, caring, supportive site where nearly everyone calls everyone else "hun".  It's a term of care and love.  How sad that you see it in only one way.  (As I said before, I once didn't like it)....but I have since spoken to a lot of lovely, caring people who live tremendously difficult lives.  And, quite honestly, you are not fit to lick their boots never mind have an opinion on their expressions.
		
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Blimey, why so vicious? Do you know Cortez? Never seen her be anything but helpful and knowledgable.

On _some _sites, the word â€˜hunâ€™ is a pisstake term (see mumsnet/U OK, hun? Facebook group). Lots of people donâ€™t like it, me included. Theyâ€™re allowed to express this without being attacked for no apparent reason. It may be caring and loving on the site you mention, but is not so for many others. Weâ€™re not all the same, you know.


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## The Fuzzy Furry (26 October 2019)

dree said:



			No, it's not.
		
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I disagree,  it most definitely is.




			....  And, quite honestly, you are not fit to lick their boots never mind have an opinion on their expressions.
		
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Really? You appear to enjoy being not just provocative but also extremely rude on a regular basis on this forum. Perhaps you ought to return to your caring supportive site, you dont show any empathy on here whatsoever ðŸ¤¬


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## Amymay (26 October 2019)

dee , shall we try and _not_ make this post all about _you_????


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## dree (26 October 2019)

Cinnamontoast said:



			Blimey, why so vicious? Do you know Cortez? Never seen her be anything but helpful and knowledgable.

On _some _sites, the word â€˜hunâ€™ is a pisstake term (see mumsnet/U OK, hun? Facebook group). Lots of people donâ€™t like it, me included. Theyâ€™re allowed to express this without being attacked for no apparent reason. It may be caring and loving on the site you mention, but is not so for many others. Weâ€™re not all the same, you know.
		
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You're entitled to your opinion.  But to actually even mention that you don't like it is infactile in itself.  I'm from Scotland, and everybody calls you "hen"....am I going to be offended by it?  No, of course not.  If people have nothing else to do but be offended by a term they don't like.....why not just scroll on by?  Not the end of the world, is it?


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## dree (26 October 2019)

The Fuzzy Furry said:



			I disagree,  it most definitely is.


Really? You appear to enjoy being not just provocative but also extremely rude on a regular basis on this forum. Perhaps you ought to return to your caring supportive site, you dont show any empathy on here whatsoever ðŸ¤¬
		
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In other words, you're telling me to piss off.  Well, it's not your thread, so, no, I won't.  You all come across nice and then turn around like a load of childish, school-yard bullies.  Have a look at your own houses before throwing stones at mine.


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## dree (26 October 2019)

amymay said:



			free, shall we try and _not_ make this post all about _you_????
		
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I'm not the one who's doing that.  You lot are.


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## The Fuzzy Furry (26 October 2019)

dree said:



			In other words, you're telling me to piss off.  Well, it's not your thread, so, no, I won't.  You all come across nice and then turn around like a load of childish, school-yard bullies.  Have a look at your own houses before throwing stones at mine.
		
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I think you need to look in the mirror sweetie......
You were bloody rude to Cortez which was not warranted at all, it was obnoxious and distasteful, just like a petulant school child. 
Need I say more?

*plonk*


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## Cinnamontoast (26 October 2019)

So Hedgepig, have you gone to visit and ride the horse yet? I think you said you were going this weekend. I was thinking about it this week and thought youâ€™d be pushing yourself to pay for the horse, from what you said, but itâ€™s not a horse you would necessarily find easy, given itâ€™s training and your history. My criteria is like many happy hacker types, an easy, co-operative horse and whilst I don't think stallions are all batshit, I think keeping one on the average yard would be such a pain.


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## dree (26 October 2019)

The Fuzzy Furry said:



			I think you need to look in the mirror sweetie......
You were bloody rude to Cortez which was not warranted at all, it was obnoxious and distasteful, just like a petulant school child. 
Need I say more?

*plonk*
		
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I only replied in kind.  Have a look again at what she said.....sweetie.


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## ycbm (26 October 2019)

Cinnamontoast said:



			So Hedgepig, have you gone to visit and ride the horse yet? I think you said you were going this weekend. I was thinking about it this week and thought youâ€™d be pushing yourself to pay for the horse, from what you said, but itâ€™s not a horse you would necessarily find easy, given itâ€™s training and your history. My criteria is like many happy hacker types, an easy, co-operative horse and whilst I don't think stallions are all batshit, I think keeping one on the average yard would be such a pain.
		
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Yep, come on HP, we all want an update. Pretty please.


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## splashgirl45 (26 October 2019)

i thought the visit was sunday  so hopefully we will have an update tomorrow evening...


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## Chinchilla (26 October 2019)

HedgePig said:



			I wonder if anyone has any experience of their stallion running off and what happened?
		
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To get this train wreck at least in the same county as the rails: I used to care for a mare who was kept next door to a property with two coloured cob stallions, but they were kept stabled all the time as no livery would take them but the owner had no fields, just two stables basically in their garden. When mucking out they'd get these horses out on lunge lines with two burly men with lunge whips and it still didn't stop one of them getting out one day. Police ended up being called because it got onto a road and was behaving so dangerously, iirc was corralled into a field in the end though and both horses left a few weeks afterwards. (Hopefully to a more suitable set up or humane euthanasia, but I don't know.)

Haven't read the whole thread, but if this is real please make sure you truly can give what sounds like a magnificent horse a good life, there's lots of good points from very experienced posters on here whose advice it would be wise to heed even if you don't like the alleged tone. Easier said than done maybe but in all fairness the horse isn't going to deceive us all for shits and giggles, and you might; it's happened on here often enough ðŸ˜‚ so of course that'll be the priority, not how you might perceive what's being said. ðŸ¤·

Any chance of pictures by pm of this horse_? I adore_ lippizanners. 

(Will just say numpties like me do appreciate the experienced posters who give advice on here.)


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## JanetGeorge (26 October 2019)

As a retiring breeder of nearly 20 years, I have just gelded my two stallions.  While both are great boys (and easy to handle - even when covering) I know that there are very few GOOD stallion owners who would be interested in having boys who wouldn't attract a big book - so I'd rather geld them, tain then to be good geldings and find good homes for them.

I really don't think there's much point in keeping a stallion if there will be no breeding use - and if he IS suitable, then he should be placed with an experienced stallion owner - at least during the season.  That may interrupt his breeding capabilities.  While some stallions can be much randier than others, and a PITA when it comes to hacking out in company - or competing at crowded venues - the main obstacle to keeping stallions is dim people.  It's a hard decision - so think hard and explore livery possibilities very carefully before making a decision that you may regret.


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## Queenbee (27 October 2019)

dree said:



			You're entitled to your opinion.  But to actually even mention that you don't like it is infactile in itself.  I'm from Scotland, and everybody calls you "hen"....am I going to be offended by it?  No, of course not.  If people have nothing else to do but be offended by a term they don't like.....why not just scroll on by?  Not the end of the world, is it?
		
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I call some very close and treasured friends hun, well actually no I don't I call them hunny.... sister, niece, cousin, and about 5 female friends.  I do not, nor would I ever use the word 'hun' to address some random stranger I did not know - I don't care where you are from or what forum you have been on, in that context it is discourteous.  That may not have been your intention having spent time on that forum, but in the real world it is simply inappropriate.   

Still on the plus side I am sure @HedgePig is very happy the thread has shifted to the appropriateness of calling random strangers 'hun' as opposed to whether or not he should purchase a stallion.


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## Cortez (27 October 2019)

dree said:



			I only replied in kind.  Have a look again at what she said.....sweetie.
		
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What I said was that I didn't like being called hun. What you said on the other hand........


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## cundlegreen (27 October 2019)

JanetGeorge said:



			As a retiring breeder of nearly 20 years, I have just gelded my two stallions.  While both are great boys (and easy to handle - even when covering) I know that there are very few GOOD stallion owners who would be interested in having boys who wouldn't attract a big book - so I'd rather geld them, tain then to be good geldings and find good homes for them.

I really don't think there's much point in keeping a stallion if there will be no breeding use - and if he IS suitable, then he should be placed with an experienced stallion owner - at least during the season.  That may interrupt his breeding capabilities.  While some stallions can be much randier than others, and a PITA when it comes to hacking out in company - or competing at crowded venues - the main obstacle to keeping stallions is dim people.  It's a hard decision - so think hard and explore livery possibilities very carefully before making a decision that you may regret.
		
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Totally agree. Another downside to competing a stallion was that although perfectly well behaved at dressage events, he seemed to upset the geldings, several of whom had a meltdown if he came anywhere near them. This did restrict my working in space. I never had this experience when showing...


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## JanetGeorge (27 October 2019)

cundlegreen said:



			Totally agree. Another downside to competing a stallion was that although perfectly well behaved at dressage events, he seemed to upset the geldings, several of whom had a meltdown if he came anywhere near them. This did restrict my working in space. I never had this experience when showing...
		
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lol, we put a gelding right next door to one of the ex-stallions this morning.  He charged across the stable in a very 'ready' state.


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## Sandstone1 (27 October 2019)

dree said:



			I only replied in kind.  Have a look again at what she said.....sweetie.
		
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Would it be better to start   a new thread about terms of endearment rather than steal someone else's thread?


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## scruffyponies (27 October 2019)

Abi90 said:



			Iâ€™ve fallen off 2 stallions... they both stood patiently next to me whilst I got back up even the one that winded me
		
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One of my daughters once dismounted to go stroke a puppy, leaving her little stallion standing in the middle of a show, no more than 20 feet from the nearest mare.  He decided to put his head down and get some grass 

Anyone could catch and lead mine with just a rope around his neck, but in most cases a loose stallion would be a concern, if not a full on problem... and if you're unlucky somebody dies.


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## cundlegreen (27 October 2019)

JanetGeorge said:



			lol, we put a gelding right next door to one of the ex-stallions this morning.  He charged across the stable in a very 'ready' state.
		
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I was asked several times if my stallion was gay, when he chatted up geldings standing in the line. Mind you, if I had a pound for every time somebody said, " you don't use him, do you?" I could leave him standing in the lineup while removing his saddle (no groom) and know he wouldn't budge.


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## FestiveFuzz (27 October 2019)

Anyone else wondering how the viewing went?


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## splashgirl45 (27 October 2019)

yes, hope we get to know soon...


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## HedgePig (28 October 2019)

Good morning forum.

I have a busy day in real life to contend with but Iâ€™ll update this evening for those who are interested.

The short version for now is we met him. Caught him. Groomed him. Picked his hooves and brushed his face, tacked him up and walked him. Lunged him. Rode him and I was even fortunate enough to get him into a few levades. Look it up I had to. 

Itâ€™s horsemanship in a methodology I am completely unfamiliar with. But extraordinarily enjoyable.

It became clear immediately that the handling of a stallion, while â€˜similarâ€™ (and I say similar because itâ€™s still a horse with 4 legs) is considerably more complex in terms of handling and an almost relentless signalling to the stallion about who is in charge. But it was not rough or noisy. Just small little adjustments you can see him make that you donâ€™t normally get from a mare. 

I will say his level of vigilance or self awareness is stunning. Shocking almost. He misses absolutely nothing. And it feels as though you are under a reasonably constant scrutiny.

Equally he is gentle. Forgiving if youâ€™re unclear on aids or signals and shows his frustration of you repeat the mistake.
Actually riding him is nothing like I have ever known. From a standstill, the smallest (and I mean tiniest) change in leg position from one side or another when combined with a nudge and you go from a standstill into a canter. On the correct leg. From a stop. There will be those of you reading this who may have horses like this yourselves, but to me it was completely unique. 

All with an incredibly light snaffle. You change your seat (I got SLIGHTLY left behind on a single stride) and he slams to a halt.
This isnâ€™t a Ferrari. This is a V10 Bentley.

Interestingly the livery actually know him and I have an initial call with the livery this afternoon.

For those of you who have been sceptical but objective I say thank you for your guidance. For those who seem to commit their time to coming in here and being unnecessarily cynical and sometimes rude, I wonâ€™t engage you know who you are.
To the MANY senior members who have DMd me with serious advice even if itâ€™s been critical I say thanks to you too. And to the horse lovers like me who all think this is just mental, thank you for your enthusiasm itâ€™s made this forum enjoyable.

I said that my partner and I were on about 30% chance of doing this, we had an extraordinary amount of information to gather and weâ€™ll continue to do this over the next few days.
I have many answers to some of the questions I was asked, not necessarily through seeing it myself of course but practical stuff like if heâ€™s been used to cover (he hasnâ€™t), the option to geld if we buy him (itâ€™s an option), how he has been socialised etc.
Thank you all again. Hedge


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## fburton (28 October 2019)

HedgePig said:



			I will say his level of vigilance or self awareness is stunning. Shocking almost. He misses absolutely nothing. And it feels as though you are under a reasonably constant scrutiny.
		
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This is a characteristic that some who work with stallions really like and can miss with geldings and mares.


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## littleshetland (28 October 2019)

I know what you mean Hedgepig.  Some years ago now I was lucky enough to own a WB trained to GP - not a stallion,but a big beautiful gelding.  I didn't train this horse, so although experienced when I got him, I pretty soon realised I had no idea what I was sitting on or what I was doing.  I'd ask for working trot and get passage and in the canter I just got flying changes endlessly...I didn't ask for them - or maybe I did and not realise!  Needless to say, I had 10 amazing years with him until arthritis got the better of him - he taught me to ride like I really thought I never would.  If I could wind the clock back and have him all over again I would in a shot. I envy your current position..Go for it!


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## Floofball (28 October 2019)

Thanks for updating HP ðŸ˜ sounds like you had an amazing time with this horse yesterday! Did you ask for levade or were they accidental? I would absolutely love the opportunity to have a sit on a horse like  that. Wether this is real or fabricated (hope its the former!) I have thoroughly enjoyed this thread ðŸ‘ðŸ» HHO at itâ€™s finest ðŸ˜‚ still hoping for pictures soon......


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## HedgePig (28 October 2019)

Whitehorseslave said:



			Thanks for updating HP ðŸ˜ sounds like you had an amazing time with this horse yesterday! Did you ask for levade or were they accidental? I would absolutely love the opportunity to have a sit on a horse like that.
Wether this is real or fabricated (hope itâ€™s the former!) I have thoroughly enjoyed this thread ðŸ‘ðŸ» HHO at itâ€™s finest ðŸ˜‚
		
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They were deliberate!! I did 3!

To put it in perspective, one reign had a little slack, and the action of me trimming it back with my left thumb was enough of a signal for him to rise. That subtle. The exertion for him is off the charts but he just gets on and does it. 

I donâ€™t really know what to do to address this residual doubt, I took photos and videos which will be time and date stamped and itâ€™s definitely my fat mug in the images! 

I guess it suits some to just pick holes in stuff. I have zero doubt that if I posted them Iâ€™d invite a deluge of criticism on my heel position and worse. And thatâ€™s not the reason Iâ€™m in here the question is about stallions, not if I am a competent rider or not. Iâ€™ve admitted Iâ€™m a rank amateur. I donâ€™t need strangers all agreeing! 

If he ends up with me or not heâ€™s going to make someone very, very proud.


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## southerncomfort (28 October 2019)

He sounds fantastic! ðŸ™‚

HOWEVER!  Now you know he's got all the moves you now need to work out if he can do the job that YOU want him to do.

Is it classical dressage that you are interested in? To the point that you will immerse yourself in it and train hard to get up to his level and be the rider that he needs?

Or would you far rather be out hacking, doing the odd fun ride, maybe the odd jumping class etc? 

How are you going to feel riding him in an arena with no one their to hold your hand and talk you through it? That's not being rude I promise....a very large majority on here wouldn't be able to ride one side of a horse like that and I include myself in that. ðŸ™‚

Time to be be really really honest with yourself.  Can you truly be the owner he needs?  Can you provide the right environment to ensure all his needs are met? And can he do the job you need him to do? Or will you just confuse the heck out of each other and both end up miserable?

The important thing is to take your time and don't be rushed in to a decision.

Good luck whatever you decide!


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## JanetGeorge (28 October 2019)

HedgePig said:



			They were deliberate!! I did 3!

To put it in perspective, one reign had a little slack, and the action of me trimming it back with my left thumb was enough of a signal for him to rise. That subtle. The exertion for him is off the charts but he just gets on and does it.

I donâ€™t really know what to do to address this residual doubt, I took photos and videos which will be time and date stamped and itâ€™s definitely my fat mug in the images! 

I guess it suits some to just pick holes in stuff. I have zero doubt that if I posted them Iâ€™d invite a deluge of criticism on my heel position and worse. And thatâ€™s not the reason Iâ€™m in here the question is about stallions, not if I am a competent rider or not. Iâ€™ve admitted Iâ€™m a rank amateur. I donâ€™t need strangers all agreeing! 

If he ends up with me or not heâ€™s going to make someone very, very proud.
		
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## JanetGeorge (28 October 2019)

HedgePig said:



			They were deliberate!! I did 3!

To put it in perspective, one reign had a little slack, and the action of me trimming it back with my left thumb was enough of a signal for him to rise. That subtle. The exertion for him is off the charts but he just gets on and does it.
		
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The fact you recognised the signal you'd given - and were able to repeat it - suggests you are much more capable a rider than you think, lol.  I still remember the day my Irish Draught stallion - then aged 20 - did his and my first piaffe and a ruddy capriole - when he found a HUGE lorry revving up his a*se - just because I sat a bit deeper and lifted my hands (once for piaffe - and a second time a bit stronger for capriole) - and I just thought I was asking hin to NOT bolt, lol.

Just remember the rule: you TELL a gelding, you ASK a mare; and you negotiate agreement with a stallion.  Well - actually - I think the last one has to be part of training, whatever the sexual status of a horse.  Ask nicely, ask a bit firmer - and if you still don't get what you ask for, ask YOURSELF why not!

It must be SO tempting - and I am glad you are asking all the right questions now!  That shows a horseman with a brain - far too many of the other sort around, sadly.  Do keep us up to date - whatever you decide.  Would love to see a photo or two.


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## Crazy_cat_lady (28 October 2019)

Ooh glad you went and met him!

Would love to see some photos and videos of him 

Would you be allowed to go and try him out several times? If you're having lessons on him you may be ok with the finesse of his buttons 

I'd love a chance to ride a highly tuned schoolmaster however would worry my aids aren't refined enough to fully ride one to the top level they are capable of

Didnt you say he knows the high school Spanish riding school movements? The worry I'd have is if hes that finely tuned and my leg suddenly slipped and I was say hacking passing a car would I suddenly get one of those flying leaps (cant remember the posh name) as that would make me have kittens and potentially be put off. I wouldn't mind the odd un requested flying change and potentially wouldn't mind the high school movements when asked for but having one come out the blue if un requested would scare me. That's coming from someone who rides a spooky Welsh d though not a Spanish riding school trained one though! It must be an honour to ride something so responsive and at least you're having lessons- if I brought a Ferrari after winning the euromillions I'd want to practice driving on a track and with an instructor- I wouldn't want to go on public roads having only driven a 1.3 litre previously as it's such a huge step up 

Does he hack nicely? Does your girlfriend hack? If you both do I'd want to keep him at the same yard as her or at least one just up the road so I could hack down and meet her then go for a hack as surely itll be more fun if you have the option of riding together? However you may have different preferences while for me hacking is most important 

Did they say why he hasn't been used for covering?

Someone cant remember who maybe YBCM made the excellent suggestion of getting him to do an ai covering or 2, freezing it then having him cut I think now you've said gelding is an option I'd look to go down this route


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## Auslander (28 October 2019)

HedgePig said:



			They were deliberate!! I did 3!

To put it in perspective, one reign had a little slack, and the action of me trimming it back with my left thumb was enough of a signal for him to rise. That subtle. The exertion for him is off the charts but he just gets on and does it.

I donâ€™t really know what to do to address this residual doubt, I took photos and videos which will be time and date stamped and itâ€™s definitely my fat mug in the images! 

I guess it suits some to just pick holes in stuff. I have zero doubt that if I posted them Iâ€™d invite a deluge of criticism on my heel position and worse. And thatâ€™s not the reason Iâ€™m in here the question is about stallions, not if I am a competent rider or not. Iâ€™ve admitted Iâ€™m a rank amateur. I donâ€™t need strangers all agreeing! 

If he ends up with me or not heâ€™s going to make someone very, very proud.
		
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Oh - please show us a pic. If you're worried about being slated, just remember that it's easy to pick holes from behind a keyboard, so not worth getting aerated about. i will personally sit heavily upon anyone who says anything nasty, if you're brave enough to put a pic up. i just want to see this lovely sounding horse!


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## Hallo2012 (28 October 2019)

he sounds like a cutey  look forward to any pics


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## ycbm (28 October 2019)

Can I have him if you don't want him? What an opportunity if you are interested in Haute Ã‰cole!


.


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## Lurfy (28 October 2019)

Well that sounds like a really good first introduction and ride. It will be an even harder decision now I imagine because to me it sounds doable. With your background riding tb's I suspect you are a pretty good rider even though not "technical". You have a good instructor and support so if you have motivation, time and $$$ to invest in learning this style of riding go for it. 
My mother grew up in Cape Town riding tb's and although not technical she was an outstanding horsewoman with natural feel. Good luck HP whatever you decide.


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## Fabled Thoroughbred (28 October 2019)

HedgePig said:



			Good morning forum.

I have a busy day in real life to contend with but Iâ€™ll update this evening for those who are interested.

The short version for now is we met him. Caught him. Groomed him. Picked his hooves and brushed his face, tacked him up and walked him. Lunged him. Rode him and I was even fortunate enough to get him into a few levades. Look it up I had to. 

Itâ€™s horsemanship in a methodology I am completely unfamiliar with. But extraordinarily enjoyable.

It became clear immediately that the handling of a stallion, while â€˜similarâ€™ (and I say similar because itâ€™s still a horse with 4 legs) is considerably more complex in terms of handling and an almost relentless signalling to the stallion about who is in charge. But it was not rough or noisy. Just small little adjustments you can see him make that you donâ€™t normally get from a mare.

I will say his level of vigilance or self awareness is stunning. Shocking almost. He misses absolutely nothing. And it feels as though you are under a reasonably constant scrutiny.

Equally he is gentle. Forgiving if youâ€™re unclear on aids or signals and shows his frustration of you repeat the mistake.
Actually riding him is nothing like I have ever known. From a standstill, the smallest (and I mean tiniest) change in leg position from one side or another when combined with a nudge and you go from a standstill into a canter. On the correct leg. From a stop. There will be those of you reading this who may have horses like this yourselves, but to me it was completely unique.

All with an incredibly light snaffle. You change your seat (I got SLIGHTLY left behind on a single stride) and he slams to a halt.
This isnâ€™t a Ferrari. This is a V10 Bentley.

Interestingly the livery actually know him and I have an initial call with the livery this afternoon.

For those of you who have been sceptical but objective I say thank you for your guidance. For those who seem to commit their time to coming in here and being unnecessarily cynical and sometimes rude, I wonâ€™t engage you know who you are.
To the MANY senior members who have DMd me with serious advice even if itâ€™s been critical I say thanks to you too. And to the horse lovers like me who all think this is just mental, thank you for your enthusiasm itâ€™s made this forum enjoyable.

I said that my partner and I were on about 30% chance of doing this, we had an extraordinary amount of information to gather and weâ€™ll continue to do this over the next few days.
I have many answers to some of the questions I was asked, not necessarily through seeing it myself of course but practical stuff like if heâ€™s been used to cover (he hasnâ€™t), the option to geld if we buy him (itâ€™s an option), how he has been socialised etc.
Thank you all again. Hedge
		
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Glad youâ€™ve seen him & accumulate the answers from questions you had, good luck @HedgePig!!


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## Cinnamontoast (28 October 2019)

Pictures, please! I would have no chance of ever riding such a stallion, go on, make us jealous! ðŸŽ Iâ€™d be the one accidentally piaffing in front of impatient motorists wondering how to make it stop!


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## JanetGeorge (29 October 2019)

Cinnamontoast said:



			Pictures, please! I would have no chance of ever riding such a stallion, go on, make us jealous! ðŸŽ Iâ€™d be the one accidentally piaffing in front of impatient motorists wondering how to make it stop!
		
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lol ,trouble is - they won't stop for a piaffe.  Took the big hind feet getting to within 6" of the windscreen to make stupid lorry driver pee his pants and turn his engine off.


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## Cinnamontoast (29 October 2019)

A friendâ€™s gentlemanâ€™s hunter actually plonked itâ€™s arse on the bonnet of a Jaguar when it got way too close. The owner of the Jag was unimpressed, the rider even less so at the sheer idiocy of the driver!


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## ycbm (29 October 2019)

I once looked around to see why my horse was getting twitchy going down a very steep hill, to see his tail lying on the bonnet of the car following us.

My language could not only be heard for five miles, it wasn't fit to be heard by a bunch of navvies!

.


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## HedgePig (31 October 2019)

Hello Forum,

As we continue something came up that I realised hasn't been mentioned, insurance. 

Can you please share your thoughts on the necessity for insurance, what to look for with an insurer (assuming its not against forum rules to provide some suggestions?) and what one should generally try to cover with an insurer? 

Hedge.


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## ester (31 October 2019)

You absolutely need 3rd party cover
Veterinary cover it depends, there are pros and cons and it very much depends on individual circumstances.


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## splashgirl45 (31 October 2019)

as ester said, 3rd party insurance is a must.  i used to insure with NFU who were good at paying out.  they are not the cheapest but my mare was accident prone so i did have a few claims.    it really depends on your own financial situation and if you want peace of mind that you could treat your horse whatever came up...mine was insured until she was 19 when all of her legs had been excluded from cover and only colic was covered so i cancelled it as i wouldnt have put her through any surgery at that age....


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## milliepops (31 October 2019)

some people seem to struggle to get cover at market value for really pricey horses. Or it's extremely expensive to do so. Just chucking that in.

I have some of mine insured for vets fees to provide a financial cushion should they need expensive care, but all are covered by third party, it's a bit bonkers not to.


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## HedgePig (31 October 2019)

milliepops said:



			some people seem to struggle to get cover at market value for really pricey horses. Or it's extremely expensive to do so. Just chucking that in.

I have some of mine insured for vets fees to provide a financial cushion should they need expensive care, but all are covered by third party, it's a bit bonkers not to.
		
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Slightly worryingly the first 3 online insurers don't even cover stallions...I guess this means it is specialist insurance?


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## milliepops (31 October 2019)

i think that possibly goes some way to support some of the reservations expressed about keeping stallions upthread  it's not without risk!  I am sure most of the decent companies would give you a quote.


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## HedgePig (31 October 2019)

milliepops said:



			i think that possibly goes some way to support some of the reservations expressed about keeping stallions upthread  it's not without risk!  I am sure most of the decent companies would give you a quote.
		
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I hit send and then found 3 insurers who do. All in the same sort of ballpark. So mild alarm over...


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## Courbette (31 October 2019)

Sorry if this has already been covered but I currently share a (non breeding) stallion so thought I'd give you a run down of my experiences. I currently loan a lovely stallion who I took on as I have ridden and handled stallions on and off for the last 20 years. He is the first stallion I have ever handled completely unsupervised and I felt comfortable taking him on as he is generally quiet and hasn't covered. I would probably have come unstuck with him if I had had no prior knowledge of stallions at all.

In terms of schooling I love the extra intelligence and presence of stallions. I do hack him weekly however I am always very cautious as I'm aware a loose stallion has the potential to be a serious danger to himself and others and this extra responsibility took a bit of getting used too. I also struggle to find others to hack out with despite him being known as quiet and well mannered. Ditto competing at riding club level as our local clubs will not allow him although I know other clubs that do.

To handle he can have the odd quirky moment and I try to be careful never to take him for granted. He is stabled on a livery yard, the only livery yard I have ever been on that allow stallions. Generally we have a really good set up but I have to be extra careful when using communal facilities such as the wash box, horse walker etc to make sure I avoid situations that put a strain on his good nature. Meeting another horse unexpectedly when coming around a corner for example. We have also had the odd issue such as his field being swapped for one with, what I would consider, an unsuitable boundary given there are other horses in close proximity.

I really enjoy sharing him but as much I enjoy stallions in general I probably wouldn't choose to have another as I feel he is deprived of necessary social interaction with his own kind. I'd also love to be able to do more with him although this is very dependent on where you live. Also if our livery yard were to close I suspect his owner would struggle to find another due to his additional needs. Having said all this though day to day he is just like having any horse, just with some extra consideration needed. 

I've been lucky enough to ride two lippizanners from the Favory and Conversano lines and they were both incredible. In my limited experience lippizanners are highly intelligent and require tactful and intelligent riders to match. I was able to have lessons on the two mentioned but they would of been too much for me to have ridden independently at the time and quite probably still. I have ridden PRE's and PSL's since and I would say the Lippi's were in a league of their own as regards brain power.

What an amazing opportunity! Hope if you do go ahead you update with pictures


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## HedgePig (31 October 2019)

Update for those still following and/or interested:

We met the livery/yard owner this week and spent some time down there taking a good look around and asking plenty questions. I will try to lay out my own 'take' on things given my limited stallion knowledge, in my own words and using my own understanding. As such and as always, criticism is welcome as long as it is balanced. Having thrown my toys out previously is would seem everyone is behaving nicely but anyone still on a mission to undermine what I am trying to learn here will simply be ignored. Any suggestion this is still some elaborate scheme or fantasist rant will be placed in my 'ignored/muted' list. This isn't a request to hold back, if you think I have missed something by all means let me have your thoughts. As always to those who have aimed to help even when the opinion is hard to hear I say thank you as before. 

For the moment I am still cautious about giving all the details on the horse, I am still acutely aware that my own ignorance risks reflecting badly on the owner. Though I have sought his permission to share the information and he was happy that I did, I shall try to determine when this is most suitable to do so. We all have to start somewhere and this is far from a noob riding off into the sunset with his shiny new stallion. There are now several layers of support beyond the simple purchase of a horse. In this respect I must both acknowledge and thank several members in this forum for their points. Thank you. 

So the yard is big, with a large livery section where a large number of horses and ponies are kept. Some for private owners and a mix for the pony club. I have to say having been on my share of yards in the past I couldn't help but notice that all the horses/ponies were in excellent health, clean and for the most part seemed quite 'fat and happy'. And by that I mean well looked after not actually overweight. 

A quick google of the facility gave it a rather impressive 5/5 stars for every single rating but one. I know this is not empirical but its worth noting that they are held in high regard locally. 

Then the yard has what was described to me as the 'private yard'. This is an entire set of boxes, away from the central yard down what is clearly a separate and deliberately private area. Fully enclosed and dry with large stalls, all clean and again the horses in excellent nic. I don't recall exactly but in the perhaps 10 horses in this section, 2.5 of them are stallions. I say .5 because one was gelded the day before.  A blend of pretty big warmbloods and a very pretty very big Freisan mare were on the line, with the stall in question the very last in the line. An obvious point of concern as raised often in here so far has been welfare and socialisation and without asking the questions specifically it was clear the stimulus, lack of stimulus or over-stimulus was something the yard owner was able to modify as the stallion would settle in. Daily turn out would be to a pretty large round arena which is grassed but needs to be cleared. Away from direct pathways and access areas but not so far away as to be away from something to look at if this was something he needed. 

The place has a number of really big fields, well fenced and secure which are also good options. I believe options are good. My sense is the large enclosure for himself would be perfectly good. It is important to remember that he is already well-mannered, spends a lot of time at shows and events where he is kept around other horses and he has never shown any difficulty. Chilled, if you like. However, I haven't taken this as gospel for a more permanent living arrangement. Any suggestion that he would be shut in a stall 24 hours a day was dealt with before I needed to ask. I will say that if the question was about a 'normal' mare or gelding it would be an absolute no-brainer. The place is perfect. 

Important (though I have said it already) is that the private yard already has stallions on the 'wing' so by extension staff are well versed and familiar with them. This for me is a significant factor. The other thing to store in the back of our minds is the yard not only knows the stallion but has kept him there, sometimes for several days in the past without any difficulty. I accept this is rather extraordinarily fortunate but it's a positive factor. Like many of you in here the yard owner seemed genuinely pleased for us that we should be offered the opportunity to own this horse, if a little surprised. So you aren't alone. 

The yard owner also appeared genuinely keen to have him. Again not reading much into this, I may have misunderstood but given she knows the stallion it strikes me as highly unlikely she would welcome him into her working business if she had any doubt in her ability to manage him or his likelihood of him not fitting in ok. 

Speaking from the heart I must accept that elements of what I might wish for a horse like this are not in my scope to offer him, I do not have a farm myself so I am obliged to seek out the best possible support for him as an alternative. This certainly does check pretty much all the boxes where his living conditions and welfare are concerned. I think it is also important to note that the current owner teaches classes at the yard at least 2 or 3 times per week so I can rely on their almost constant oversight as to his ongoing care. 

Today I have spent a little time getting indicative quotes for having him insured. It started off a little difficult but having spoken to a large insurer I am comfortable that this component would be dealt with should it be necessary. 

I don't wish to sound pessimistic, we are still quite some way from a decision, we have a few (what I call) reporting points on the event horizon that I need to see completed before we are in a position to make a decision, thought I would go so far as to say it's 50/50. It is a fairly relentless marriage between an obvious desire to make a success of this, versus a thoughtful and considered decision. I hope will understand this is far from a snap decision, we are really trying to make an informed decision. If we do this, I will be confident I have dealt with most of my concerns. If we do not do this, I will be able to look back and accept I understood why I did not. 

Dealing with the question of my own obvious riding ability (or current lack thereof) the owner saw both myself and my partner ride him for several hours this weekend and he feels she is ready to start on him. I am not. (I shall try to hide my obvious grief at this!)  

He is confident I am 'probably' ready but we have made an arrangement with the yard to provide a well-trained horse for me to ride for a few hours just so I get 'back in the saddle' on another horse without risking pulling him back too far. I think this is just good sense. As @Courbette just said a moment ago, this horse is quite honestly like riding an Aston Martin. 

Thank you all again for keeping up with all of this. Hedge.


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## splashgirl45 (31 October 2019)

i am glad you are trying to get the best for him but i cant help my feeling that he would have a better, more natural life is he was gelded. is he only to go in a pen or can he go in the large field you are talking about?    if he has never covered you will not be taking a pleasure away from him.... and it seems pointless to keep him entire if he is never to be used.......if he has such good lines i wonder why the current owner has not used him as a stallion....  do you know why?  and what would the owner feel about him being gelded?   i dont want to put a down on you as i can see you are thinking everything through but at this stage i worry that you will be taking on a horse which you will not be able to do the things you want to.  i seem to remember you wanted to do a bit of everything and maybe this horse as a stallion will not be accepted at riding club type events...i am trying to think of all of the negatives for you... if it was me i would absolutely love a highly trained dressage horse so would want to have him BUT i would geld him, both for his quality of life and my peace of mind if i was competing....


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## HedgePig (31 October 2019)

splashgirl45 said:



			i am glad you are trying to get the best for him but i cant help my feeling that he would have a better, more natural life is he was gelded. is he only to go in a pen or can he go in the large field you are talking about?    if he has never covered you will not be taking a pleasure away from him.... and it seems pointless to keep him entire if he is never to be used.......if he has such good lines i wonder why the current owner has not used him as a stallion....  do you know why?  and what would the owner feel about him being gelded?   i dont want to put a down on you as i can see you are thinking everything through but at this stage i worry that you will be taking on a horse which you will not be able to do the things you want to.  i seem to remember you wanted to do a bit of everything and maybe this horse as a stallion will not be accepted at riding club type events...i am trying to think of all of the negatives for you... if it was me i would absolutely love a highly trained dressage horse so would want to have him BUT i would geld him, both for his quality of life and my peace of mind if i was competing....
		
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Hi Splash I mentioned this elsewhere but given all the posts it's possible it got missed. The owner has no objection to him being gelded. None. 

To answer your question as to why, I did ask the owner and his answer was pretty clear. He has been raised in line with the Spanish School in Vienna and they don't make any decisions about gelding until the horse is at least 8 or 9 years of age. Don't quote me on this but that was how I understood it. It allows time for the best natured horses to be identified and interestingly composition is a big part of it. I guess that the school is set up for stallions. (I don't actually know but I don't think they have ANY mares?) Its all they have. So there is no need to geld. He mentioned they might have several hundred stallions at a time and it would simply be an unnecessary cost. In my words stallions are sort of their 'thing'. Remember to date this boy has been his horse. He knows what he is doing and has a facility that copes with him. He doesn't need to geld. I may need to and this would not be a barrier though as I have said before, if I felt me taking him on meant he would likely need to have his nuts off, I am probably not a great option as a new owner. Others out there who can manage him just fine would probably be a better fit. 

Also as other have made clear, gelding a horse can lead to a very obvious blunting in the behaviour of the horse. There will be serious riders out there who want this and have no desire to remove it. I am not in a position to make this sort of decision yet but for the moment I would not wish to geld him before I even get to know him. Seems a bit the wrong way around then I may as well just look for a gelding? 

The husbandry question is one we haven't answered. He doesn't run with a herd in a field nor has he ever since being a colt. We aren't talking about a life of miserable isolation, right now he is kept next to a huge gelding with no issues. For practical reasons alone we need to keep stallions and mares apart, or we will have unwanted pregnancies. So this line of thinking means that every stallion currently kept is living a life of misery. I am not sure this is true? He's on his own all day at the moment (albeit in a big field) and doesn't seem to mind at all. Apparently he is fond of dogs and chickens. 

The bottom line is I need to accept that he needs to be managed separately, but its not like he is locked away somewhere, the line they have identified for him is in a group of horses, just kept apart by a barrier for obvious reasons. Its probably more company than he is used to now.


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## planete (31 October 2019)

As a past enthusiast of classical riding, I am trying to imagine how I would react in your shoes, HP.  Owning such a horse would mean a total refocusing of my riding aims and priorities and I would throw myself into learning to ride him as he is used to being ridden and forget about life with ordinary horses.  It would probably involve blood, sweat and tears and I would be totally indifferent to my past pleasures of hacking and local competitions ( I could do that on any old nag after all!).  Being a stallion is an  intrinsic part of who this horse is and I am glad you will not automatically geld him if you take him on.  Just my take on this, I am not saying it should be yours but I have had the privilege to know a few Lipizzaners and to ride a couple of dressage stallions and for me, the privilege of working with them would warrant many sacrifices.


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## splashgirl45 (31 October 2019)

i wouldnt expect him to run with a herd but your earlier reply sounded like he was away from other horses and this post sounds better at least he is next to others and will have company when stabled.


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## Crazy_cat_lady (31 October 2019)

Its definitely starting to sound a lot more doable and you're doing extensive research not just rushing into it. It is great you are allowed to geld him if the need arises, at least you have it there as an option. It may be worth just asking round some of the yards just so you have a back up if you find issues arise with this one given the number of threads on here about dodgy yards. I'm not saying this one is but if you're stressed trying to move from a yard you hate but cant find any that will take him itll add to your stress. At least if you know at least one other in the area will allow a stallion you've got a fallback option 

How near is it to your girlfriend's yard? Would she be able to keep her horse at the yard too, especially as she will be helping you with him to start with. It would give you someone to hack with but it will also make it easier for you both else you'll have to go to her yard for her lesson then go all the way to your one for you to both work with your stallion whereas you can just go from stable to stable if they are both at the same yard. You can ride together in the school as well if he's fine with other horses and she can help you while riding especially on the dark wet days you're not waiting around for one another 

The owner seems really helpful it's great he's offering you a go on some Lamborghinis to prepare you for the Bugatti!

I'd be getting very tempted if I was you!


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## cundlegreen (31 October 2019)

HedgePig said:



			The husbandry question is one we haven't answered. He doesn't run with a herd in a field nor has he ever since being a colt. We aren't talking about a life of miserable isolation, right now he is kept next to a huge gelding with no issues. For practical reasons alone we need to keep stallions and mares apart, or we will have unwanted pregnancies. So this line of thinking means that every stallion currently kept is living a life of misery. I am not sure this is true? He's on his own all day at the moment (albeit in a big field) and doesn't seem to mind at all. Apparently he is fond of dogs and chicke
		
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I have a stallion here who I've owned for 22 years. He has always been kept on his own, in the field adjacent to mares/geldings. He is stabled next to mares. He worked until he was 18, and has always looked and acted a happy horse. He did have the tendency to jump out and attack geldings that he felt were bothering his mares. He has always covered, but sometimes only one mare a year. None of this makes any difference to his kind nature. In the past he has covered in the morning, then competed at a show the same day. It doesn't make any difference to him. However, there have been occasions when he has taken a strong dislike to a gelding and tried to kill him. He is the kindest boy you could wish for, BUT he is a full horse. All this should be taken into consideration. The Spanish Riding School in Vienna, and the one in Jerez have large amounts of stallions, and they are all impeccably behaved, but they are boys living with boys. IME, it's not the stallion who is the problem, but the other owners who don't give consideration to how they should handle their horses around a stallion. I've had a girl in a lesson move her mare in front of my boy, and back her to him, then take umbrage when I request she give him room. This is the sort of thing you may have to deal with.


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## Equi (31 October 2019)

I think anyone following is now just getting interested. I have said i was in the NO category but frankly im slightly swaying. You've put thought and work into this, and the yard is what i would expect for a horse of this calibre. That helps towards a decision MASSIVELY. The only point i have to bring up is your GF...what is her view..is she very keen for you to get this as your horse or (and i hate to say it)  is she really keen for you to get this horse hoping it will end up hers?


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## SatansLittleHelper (1 November 2019)

I have nothing to offer in terms of the stallion debate but just to add a consideration to living arrangements. 
You say that if he went to this livery yard that he would have more company than he currently has..?? Fantastic but a word of caution to consider. 
My loan cob is rising 10. He has always lived alone till he came here. Albeit a bit different to your situation as mine live out 24/7 but I very naively assumed that as he was used to living alone that leaving him alone while I worked with my other horse would be fine. WRONG. He has decided, as s natural herd animal, that he has wonderful friends and will not risk losing them at any cost. He is a bloody nightmare despite having been out and obtaining him a pet Mini Shetland (ok, ok I admit that was for me but shhhhhh ðŸ˜³ðŸ˜³ðŸ˜). We are now having to look at getting a professional out to help give the boy a bit of help coping with the other horse leaving him. 
I realise my situation is very different to yours but something worth considering when a horse has led a relatively solitary life. 
ETA: He is considerably better at leaving the others than them leaving him ðŸ™„ðŸ™„ðŸ™„
Good luck


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## ycbm (1 November 2019)

HP if you're hoping to maintain some level of privacy about this, I think you need to realise that you've now given so many details, and because there are so few lippizaner stallions in this country trained by an haute ecole rider, coupled with pony club centres which have an haute ecole rider train at them, that it's now pretty easy to identify  which horse, trainer and riding centre you are talking about.

.


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## Floxie (1 November 2019)

ycbm said:



			HP if you're hoping to maintain some level of privacy about this, I think you need to realise that you've now given so many details, and because there are so few lippizaner stallions in this country trained by an haute ecole rider, coupled with pony club centres which have an haute ecole rider train at them, that it's now pretty easy to identify  which horse, trainer and riding centre you are talking about.
		
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That's fair - but I got the impression (I may be wrong!) that this wasn't a COMPLETE PRIVACY!! concern but more of a... not waving it about scenario?! Plus he says he has sought the owner's permission to share, but is choosing not to just yet. I may be wrong or not making sense  But if the information is there, it still requires a little digging, as opposed to Hedgepig just outright banding it about.

Although naturally since you've posted that I'm trying to dig haha! 

(PS: why do you add a line break and a dot after your posts? I keep wondering..!) xx


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## Caol Ila (1 November 2019)

My attempts at stalking may have been succesful, LOL.


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## Floxie (1 November 2019)

No, I can't find it either!  Very disappointed haha


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## Tiddlypom (1 November 2019)

I put â€˜haute ecole stallion trainer pony club centreâ€™ in google.


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## HedgePig (1 November 2019)

Floxie said:



			That's fair - but I got the impression (I may be wrong!) that this wasn't a COMPLETE PRIVACY!! concern but more of a... not waving it about scenario?! Plus he says he has sought the owner's permission to share, but is choosing not to just yet. I may be wrong or not making sense  But if the information is there, it still requires a little digging, as opposed to Hedgepig just outright banding it about.

Although naturally since you've posted that I'm trying to dig haha! 

(PS: why do you add a line break and a dot after your posts? I keep wondering..!) xx
		
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Hi Floxie,

I need to be clear. If my original question had been met with objectivity I would not hesitate to share all. Instead I was called a liar, a scammer and a fantasist. Not once. Not twice. It was ongoing. I was compared to a storyteller who wanted to learn to ride by building a training school for TBs and my (almost) certain failure on this project was something people in here would look forward to. MAYBE 3 people came in here and called for calm. Not one person condemned it, instead I got explanation after explanation about why I should understand how fanciful this whole thing is and how I simply need to 'put up' with the abuse. Let me say again, some people have been horrible. I don't pretend to understand what people gain from coming onto a forum and being an arse, but they certainly hunt in packs in here. 

You can quite honestly blame 2 or 3 posters for their rubbish attitude. I have had no apology (nor do I think they are the calibre of people to offer one anyway) for the initial hostility and so I am not about to bow to their curtain twitching and share all the details. Certainly not until I feel I want to, if at all. There have been a handful of members who I have been speaking with using the message function with whom I have shared pics of me working with the horse etc. Again, I worked out a long time ago that in here you're unlikely to please all the people all the time, and those baying for info have been the most critical. Its my right to enjoy a little privacy here and where I have felt it necessary I have spent rather a long time explaining what I have done, what I have learnt and how I might see this all work out. Its been quite some time and I am still here, taking and answering questions. Surely the work of a charlatan. 

I accept I am operating in a tiny pool of possibilities. There aren't that many Lippi stallions floating about. If you happen to know the horse and owner maybe it will have gone some way to giving legitimacy to my question. I still need to decide if this is a good idea and if it will work. If others know the horse and owner (he is certainly well known by my account) then they are free to speak with him directly, I have made no claims to be anything more (or less) than I am. I'm a stallion novice. I need a lot of help with this and I am really grateful to those who have been willing to help. 

As always though thank you for your interest, this whole thing is exciting as much as it is crazy. Hedge.


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## ester (1 November 2019)

Another thought/question, if it really didn't work out would he have him back? I'd think it likely he would from what you have said.


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## Floofball (1 November 2019)

Like your avatar HP ðŸ‘ðŸ» He looks gorgeous!


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## HedgePig (1 November 2019)

ester said:



			Another thought/question, if it really didn't work out would he have him back? I'd think it likely he would from what you have said.
		
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Hi Ester,
Short answer, not sure. We have discussed him continuing to use the horse to showcase his talents, along with an agreement that if something 'goes wrong' he will take the horse back and 'retrain' him, not sure if that is the right term. I think at some point we need to decide that there is a managed level of risk here. Backup would be gelding, retraining etc. 
The other thing of course is this horse is not an 'unknown'. We aren't buying sight unseen off the interwebs.  Ha ha, I know where he lives and can knock on his door!


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## HedgePig (1 November 2019)

Whitehorseslave said:



			Like your avatar HP ðŸ‘ðŸ» He looks gorgeous!
		
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That is the horse in question. Handsome chap huh.


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## southerncomfort (1 November 2019)

I think you may have misunderstood HP.

When I and others mentioned that it sounded 'suspect', we were meaning that their might be a catch somewhere, as in: is the horse carrying an injury? Are you being scammed?  We weren't questioning your story, just wondering what's in it for the trainer etc.

I think overall posters have been very supportive


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## HedgePig (1 November 2019)

equi said:



			I think anyone following is now just getting interested. I have said i was in the NO category but frankly im slightly swaying. You've put thought and work into this, and the yard is what i would expect for a horse of this calibre. That helps towards a decision MASSIVELY. The only point i have to bring up is your GF...what is her view..is she very keen for you to get this as your horse or (and i hate to say it)  is she really keen for you to get this horse hoping it will end up hers?
		
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Hi Equi and apologies for the delay in acknowledging your post. 

Honestly it goes from "OMG WE CAN DO THIS!!" to "This is nuts what are we even doing here?!" in equal measure and in equal (high) frequency. I chuckled at your question about my gf, and there is every chance he ends up being her horse. Which I would of course gladly do and support if it looked like this was the best set of options for him. I also think him getting ridden as much as possible is not a bad thing, between the two of us and as I say if it looks like he's a better fit for her then that's how it will likely go. I'll be back in here asking about a gelding.


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## HedgePig (1 November 2019)

SatansLittleHelper said:



			I have nothing to offer in terms of the stallion debate but just to add a consideration to living arrangements.
You say that if he went to this livery yard that he would have more company than he currently has..?? Fantastic but a word of caution to consider.
My loan cob is rising 10. He has always lived alone till he came here. Albeit a bit different to your situation as mine live out 24/7 but I very naively assumed that as he was used to living alone that leaving him alone while I worked with my other horse would be fine. WRONG. He has decided, as s natural herd animal, that he has wonderful friends and will not risk losing them at any cost. He is a bloody nightmare despite having been out and obtaining him a pet Mini Shetland (ok, ok I admit that was for me but shhhhhh ðŸ˜³ðŸ˜³ðŸ˜). We are now having to look at getting a professional out to help give the boy a bit of help coping with the other horse leaving him.
I realise my situation is very different to yours but something worth considering when a horse has led a relatively solitary life.
ETA: He is considerably better at leaving the others than them leaving him ðŸ™„ðŸ™„ðŸ™„
Good luck 

Click to expand...

Ha hi SLH! 
I read last night about people keeping companion goats for their stallions?! I admitted I don't know much about stallions, what I know about goats is downright dangerous!!


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## Tarragon (1 November 2019)

I have just read the whole thread... quite a read!
I cannot imagine what it must be like to own and ride such a horse - it is so far removed from my own experience and my own ponies, it is a different world. If your horse is an Aston Martin then I think my ponies would come out as commuter bicycles in that analogy 
HP, I am glad that you have posted your recent updates as I so wanted to believe that your situation was real.
I think that you have the money and the support around you, both with the ownership and the riding, to make this work. 
If you are going to involve the forum though I think that we need plenty of photos and regular updates!!!


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## HedgePig (1 November 2019)

southerncomfort said:



			I think you may have misunderstood HP.

When I and others mentioned that it sounded 'suspect', we were meaning that their might be a catch somewhere, as in: is the horse carrying an injury? Are you being scammed?  We weren't questioning your story, just wondering what's in it for the trainer etc.

I think overall posters have been very supportive
		
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Hi SC not at all, in fact I gave your post a 'like' at the time if I recall. I have understood the scepticism where it has been fair. But certainly initially a lot of it really wasn't. Imagine you come to a forum like this, you have no agenda, you know only what you know and next thing your whole story is being called into question, where you then spend 2 days trying to get the topic back onto stallions. If you didn't wonder what the hell was going on with all suspicion you'd have some wiring missing. 

I saw terms like 'fantasist' and 'scammer'. I was told it sounds 'fishy' at best. This isn't nice. is it? I was told I write too much at one stage for crying out loud! English is not my first language yet I was being called verbose!?! 

I did not, nor do I feel I need to accept being likened to a fantasist who made up a story about opening a racing school to learn to ride. With a sarcastic little suffix of _"We never did find out how that ended. I hope you will keep us updated?" _

That's just messed up. And I have zero doubt these folks will continue to criticise and mock. Or perhaps they will apologise, but I doubt it. And I shall continue to push back at people who continue with this sort of line. I have responded immediately to anyone and everyone, I have made a point to thank each in turn and I have never been unkind or rude unless it came from the replies first. This is a fact. 

Anyway. I do wonder if this thread has run its course. I would have liked to continue with updates on progress. Even post videos and news on where we are and if we do this what it has been like. I certainly have proven I am happy to fill a page with words! 

Again though thank you for your efforts to be fair and objective. They have not gone unnoticed. 

Hedge.


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## Tarragon (1 November 2019)

Those of you who have been on the forum for a long time - do you remember someone who used to post the most gorgeous videos of their magnificent horses? It was somewhere on the continent (Spain?) I think, and they were always cantering through the trees. I think they were removed by Admin for some misdemeanour or something. I have an pretty poor memory but this definitely sticks in my mind.
Can you help me out?

Edited to add that I posted this as I would love to see regular posts on following the adventures of beautiful horses


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## HedgePig (1 November 2019)

Tarragon said:



			I have just read the whole thread... quite a read!
I cannot imagine what it must be like to own and ride such a horse - it is so far removed from my own experience and my own ponies, it is a different world. If your horse is an Aston Martin then I think my ponies would come out as commuter bicycles in that analogy 
HP, I am glad that you have posted your recent updates as I so wanted to believe that your situation was real.
I think that you have the money and the support around you, both with the ownership and the riding, to make this work.
If you are going to involve the forum though I think that we need plenty of photos and regular updates!!!
		
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Ha Hi Tarragon!! 

I haven't actually read the entire thread start to finish, I suspect I might lose the will to live!! 

I must admit in the last few days people have actually been great. Kind and encouraging even. People like @equi who started off in my 'no' column have been good enough to stick with me and have begun to warm to the idea. The fact people like them are willing to say "this is sounding like it is possible" makes the rough start easier to forget. And I have tried to thank them for it. 

Not really sure what happens next, I have a lot to get through this weekend with all of it, not least of all the financial planning that goes hand in hand and these are all under way while we chat.

Thanks again. Hedge.


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## Floofball (1 November 2019)

Tarragon said:



			Those of you who have been on the forum for a long time - do you remember someone who used to post the most gorgeous videos of their magnificent horses? It was somewhere on the continent (Spain?) I think, and they were always cantering through the trees. I think they were removed by Admin for some misdemeanour or something. I have an pretty poor memory but this definitely sticks in my mind.
Can you help me out?

Edited to add that I posted this as I would love to see regular posts on following the adventures of beautiful horses
		
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Was it Armas something? White horse freely running around the farm I seem to remember. Wondered what happened to them myself but think I may have found them on Facebook!


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## Tiddlypom (1 November 2019)

Armas had the lame grey horse. Armas the human was an unpleasant dickhead who got banned from HHO for posting a nasty video heâ€™d taken of someone with Touretteâ€™s syndrome who was travelling on the tube. We were supposed to join in mocking this person with him.


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## Courbette (1 November 2019)

He looks gorgeous. Was he UK bred? I'd love a Lippizanner one day but I don't think there are too many of them about. We had a breeder close to my home which is how I ended up riding them and at that point I believe there was only about 100 in the UK. One that could do higher level work would be the icing on the cake for me


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## ycbm (1 November 2019)

HedgePig said:



			That is the horse in question. Handsome chap huh. 

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He is gorgeous and you are one lucky man!

.


PS in answer to someone else question I put line throws on my posts because it makes the forum easier to read. Lots of us do it.

.


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## ester (1 November 2019)

Tiddlypom said:



			Armas had the lame grey horse. Armas the human was an unpleasant dickhead who got banned from HHO for posting a nasty video heâ€™d taken of someone with Touretteâ€™s syndrome who was travelling on the tube. We were supposed to join in mocking this person with him.
		
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Armas the human recently upset a really lovely can't do enough to help people person I know, I was at least able to tell her it wasn't personal and give it no more thought.


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## ycbm (1 November 2019)

HedgePig said:



			I did not, nor do I feel I need to accept being likened to a fantasist who made up a story about opening a racing school to learn to ride. With a sarcastic little suffix of _"We never did find out how that ended. I hope you will keep us updated?" _

.
		
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You have misunderstood. It was never clear whether that was a fantasist or not, and I erred towards not myself because someone from the British Racing School posted on his thread and appeared to know of him and his objective. He wanted to learn to ride at a racing stables on horses in training with a current British trainer.

My comment was not remotely sarcastic, it was completely genuine. Only by updating us would we ever know if your story was true or not. And if true, as it is now clear that it is, it will make a fascinating thread as time goes on, and give us all a glimpse of a horse we can only dream about owning. 

The forum would love your updates and nobody would mock them. Your story sounded so incredible  you have to excuse the doubts, but we do get the piss taken out of us right royally by trolls on a regular basis.

It took me time to make up my mind and now it's easy to identify the horse and trainer,  I just think you're the luckiest man on the planet, I would love to ride that horse!




.


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## Pinkvboots (1 November 2019)

In my experience very few yards have the ideal set up to accommodate stallions properly, when my Arab was a stallion I was very lucky to find a yard that had 2 properly fenced stallion fields, as in the fence was much higher than your average field and they had electric running through them, even the most well behaved stallion can be unpredictable I have seen a yearling colt climb a 5 bar gate to get to a mare.


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## Jill's Gym Karma (1 November 2019)

HedgePig said:



			Hi Floxie,

I need to be clear. If my original question had been met with objectivity I would not hesitate to share all. Instead I was called a liar, a scammer and a fantasist. Not once. Not twice. It was ongoing. I was compared to a storyteller who wanted to learn to ride by building a training school for TBs and my (almost) certain failure on this project was something people in here would look forward to. MAYBE 3 people came in here and called for calm. Not one person condemned it, instead I got explanation after explanation about why I should understand how fanciful this whole thing is and how I simply need to 'put up' with the abuse. Let me say again, some people have been horrible. I don't pretend to understand what people gain from coming onto a forum and being an arse, but they certainly hunt in packs in here.

You can quite honestly blame 2 or 3 posters for their rubbish attitude. I have had no apology (nor do I think they are the calibre of people to offer one anyway) for the initial hostility and so I am not about to bow to their curtain twitching and share all the details. Certainly not until I feel I want to, if at all.
		
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I think you're taking this far too personally.

1 This is a public forum under a well-known brand name. All forums attract blatant trolls and spammers, but many also get targeted with very elaborate time-wasting nonsense. 

2 You described a scenario that is so far from the every day experience; it's lgitimate to be suspicious of either your veracity, or gullibility. Essentially your first post was "this guy I have a few beers with told me they liked the cut of my jib so are offering me one of the world's most famous and highly trained breeds at a knockdown rate. Oh and I haven't ridden for decades and don't have anywhere to keep it." Most of us grew up reading pony stories in which pony-mad-but-pony-less girls won ponies or were randomly gifted them by eccentric millionaires, and this is very reminiscent of that scenario. It is not unreasonable to be sceptical.

3 On a public forum people will disagree with you, and horsey people are invariably blunt in their opinions. I don't see anyone being rude or aggressive, just questioning. This forum has a wealth of experience, but if you need constant reassurance and apologies then it may not be the place for you.


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## HedgePig (1 November 2019)

Jill's Gym Karma said:



			I think you're taking this far too personally.

1 This is a public forum under a well-known brand name. All forums attract blatant trolls and spammers, but many also get targeted with very elaborate time-wasting nonsense.

2 You described a scenario that is so far from the every day experience; it's lgitimate to be suspicious of either your veracity, or gullibility. Essentially your first post was "this guy I have a few beers with told me they liked the cut of my jib so are offering me one of the world's most famous and highly trained breeds at a knockdown rate. Oh and I haven't ridden for decades and don't have anywhere to keep it." Most of us grew up reading pony stories in which pony-mad-but-pony-less girls won ponies or were randomly gifted them by eccentric millionaires, and this is very reminiscent of that scenario. It is not unreasonable to be sceptical.

3 On a public forum people will disagree with you, and horsey people are invariably blunt in their opinions. I don't see anyone being rude or aggressive, just questioning. This forum has a wealth of experience, but if you need constant reassurance and apologies then it may not be the place for you.
		
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Then I shall be happy to take my leave. 

Thank you all for your contributions.


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## bonny (1 November 2019)

HedgePig said:



			Then I shall be happy to take my leave. This is not the place for me. 

Thank you all for your contributions.
		
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What a waste of everyoneâ€™s time !


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## ester (1 November 2019)

Right, so you are going on one person's say so ... that's a bit drama!


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## Floxie (1 November 2019)

ycbm said:



			.


.
		
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(My first thought was that it was to put some white space between the end of the text and the post toolbar - guess it was, more or less) 

I've read the lot (I think!) and couldn't read into it the meanness that HP seems to see - but perhaps I would feel differently if I was in the firing line, I suppose.

EDIT: wow, that took a quick turn while I was writing my post!


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## Tiddlypom (1 November 2019)

HedgePig said:



			This is not the place for me.
		
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Please shut the door on your way out .


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## Fabled Thoroughbred (1 November 2019)

@HedgePig, Sorry to hear youâ€™re leaving, I hope it works out with your stallion friend!! Iâ€™m in the yes category as long as you are comfortable!! You shouldnâ€™t feel like you have to leave because of a couple people, I think some stuff is unfortunately being misinterpreted, and getting off-topic. You could always start a new thread if you want a fresh start!! I did see some questioning, but also a couple things that were a little edgy. I hope I havenâ€™t offended anyone with my comments, thatâ€™s all I will say.


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## cundlegreen (1 November 2019)

HedgePig said:



			Hi SC not at all, in fact I gave your post a 'like' at the time if I recall. I have understood the scepticism where it has been fair. But certainly initially a lot of it really wasn't. Imagine you come to a forum like this, you have no agenda, you know only what you know and next thing your whole story is being called into question, where you then spend 2 days trying to get the topic back onto stallions. If you didn't wonder what the hell was going on with all suspicion you'd have some wiring missing. 

I saw terms like 'fantasist' and 'scammer'. I was told it sounds 'fishy' at best. This isn't nice. is it? I was told I write too much at one stage for crying out loud! English is not my first language yet I was being called verbose!?! 

I did not, nor do I feel I need to accept being likened to a fantasist who made up a story about opening a racing school to learn to ride. With a sarcastic little suffix of _"We never did find out how that ended. I hope you will keep us updated?" _

That's just messed up. And I have zero doubt these folks will continue to criticise and mock. Or perhaps they will apologise, but I doubt it. And I shall continue to push back at people who continue with this sort of line. I have responded immediately to anyone and everyone, I have made a point to thank each in turn and I have never been unkind or rude unless it came from the replies first. This is a fact. 

Anyway. I do wonder if this thread has run its course. I would have liked to continue with updates on progress. Even post videos and news on where we are and if we do this what it has been like. I certainly have proven I am happy to fill a page with words! 

Again though thank you for your efforts to be fair and objective. They have not gone unnoticed. 

Hedge.
		
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Ask Milliepops on here about a very long thread about a Lusitano horse who was struggling with his training. The owner took a lot of flack about that one. I'm not sure how it ended up, but there were a lot of opinions out there...


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## Leo Walker (1 November 2019)

That was a VERY hasty departure mere minutes after the horse and current owner was identified ðŸ¤”ðŸ¤”


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## ester (1 November 2019)

We've already discussed that owner cundlegreen


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## Fabled Thoroughbred (1 November 2019)

It is only right to assume good faith.


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## Crazy_cat_lady (1 November 2019)

ycbm said:



			You have misunderstood. It was never clear whether that was a fantasist or not, and I erred towards not myself because someone from the British Racing School posted on his thread and appeared to know of him and his objective. He wanted to learn to ride at a racing stables on horses in training with a current British trainer.

My comment was not remotely sarcastic, it was completely genuine. Only by updating us would we ever know if your story was true or not. And if true, as it is now clear that it is, it will make a fascinating thread as time goes on, and give us all a glimpse of a horse we can only dream about owning.

The forum would love your updates and nobody would mock them. Your story sounded so incredible  you have to excuse the doubts, but we do get the piss taken out of us right royally by trolls on a regular basis.

It took me time to make up my mind and now it's easy to identify the horse and trainer,  I just think you're the luckiest man on the planet, I would love to ride that horse!




.
		
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I'd also absolutely love a continuous thread like Adorable Alice's Ted one if OP does purchase the horse I think it would be really interesting to follow your progress with him

Can someone who's identified the horse/ trainer pm me as I have no idea and am intrigued


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## Caol Ila (2 November 2019)

"On a public forum people will disagree with you, and horsey people are invariably blunt in their opinions. I don't see anyone being rude or aggressive, just questioning. This forum has a wealth of experience, but if you need constant reassurance and apologies then it may not be the place for you."

"Then I shall be happy to take my leave."

Oh, come on and keep us updated. She wasn't slagging you off, just explaining why people were sceptical, which is fair enough.  If you've spent any time in the horse world, you'd know 'constant reassurances and apologies,' on or offline, are as common as yetis and velociraptors.


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## Sandstone1 (2 November 2019)

Was this actually true or a troll?   Anyone know?   If it's true then the Op is a bit of a drama Queen to leave like that!


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## lannerch (2 November 2019)

Sandstone1 said:



			Was this actually true or a troll?   Anyone know?   If it's true then the Op is a bit of a drama Queen to leave like that!
		
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My guess is troll, just cannot believe the story .


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## ycbm (2 November 2019)

I think it could be true that the trainer wants to sell the horse to one of his trainees who rides her own PRE to high level.  And that the person who has the money to buy it is the OH, so everyone, including him, is allowing him to believe that the horse will be `his`. 

The timing of his departure very soon after it was identified where and who he was talking about,  the timing of the thread at half term, the excess of detail when claiming to only want the answer to a simple question about the pros and cons of keeping a stallion and the manufacture of anger about a pretty innocuous post to justify a flounce do suggest a troll though.

It's certainly someone very well educated from the writing!

I'd like it to be true, I think it could be,  but if it isn't it was quite a good one, and harmless, apart from not apologising for misquoting me and then saying what I wrote was sarcastic and twisting the words of others trying to warn him it might be a scam. 

He was still reading and posting likes this morning including on this post, so maybe he'll  come back and we'll find out.

.


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## southerncomfort (2 November 2019)

ycbm said:



			I think it could be true that the trainer wants to sell the horse to one of his trainees who rides her own PRE to high level.  And that the person who has the money to buy it is the OH, so everyone, including him, is allowing him to believe that the horse will be his.

.
		
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I think this could very likely be true.

However, I must day that the hyper sensitivity and, dare I say anger, when questioned on the finer details, does make me wonder...

As you say though YCBM, no harm done either way.


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## ester (2 November 2019)

It's all a bit hot and cold drama drama really regardless .


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## Cinnamontoast (2 November 2019)

Over wordy. Novel like, in fact. Iâ€™m often guilty of writing posts which are far too long, but the epic-like proportions are daunting, frankly. 

Whilst I understand being dazzled by a Haute Ã‰cole stallion, it is, as the OP said himself, like driving an Aston Martin, when really, youâ€™d be better off with an old Landy for rumbling round country roads.


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## Leo Walker (2 November 2019)

Nejc trained at the famous stud farm Lipica, the National Lipizzaner stud of Slovenia where he was taught by George Val of the Spanish Riding School of Vienna and learned to perform the haute ecole movements levade, courbette capriole as well as all the most advanced ground movements.
An immensely talented horseman and trainer, Nejc`s experience is not limited to high school dressage. He has worked with horses and riders at all levels and has trained carriage horses to world class level.

He currently has two horses in training in the UK, an Andalusian, Beato and a young Lippizanner stallion, Zen.
National champion Hartbury college Prix st George
		
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http://www.fitzworthyequestrian.co.uk/fitzworthy-events.php?DOC_INST=36


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## FlyingCircus (2 November 2019)

Also think could be rich bf/husband with trainer actually wanting the gf to ride the horse...


Siglavy Jadranka possibly?


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## Velcrobum (2 November 2019)

Interestingly the rider does not appear to have a BD record well not under the spelling of the surname given. The National championships are held at Stoneleigh (sp!) the Winter championships are held at Hartpury and do not go as high as PSG.


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## ester (2 November 2019)

Might have been breed specific not BD GBPRE have their national champs at hartpury.


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## ycbm (2 November 2019)

Thats



Velcrobum said:



			Interestingly the rider does not appear to have a BD record well not under the spelling of the surname given.
		
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That's pretty normal for people who ride Iberians at a high level, I think. If he graduated from The Spanish Riding School and trains up to capriole, I doubt he feels the need to prove himself at BD. The people local to me who compete up to GP on Lusitanos only ride at competitions for Iberians, I think. 

.


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## jojo5 (2 November 2019)

The OP mentions that he/she has sent pics/vids of him/her trying the horse to â€˜seniorâ€™ members of the forum (is that membership or age???!!!ðŸ˜œ) - maybe they can at least tell us how it went? Did it seem ok?


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## Fabled Thoroughbred (2 November 2019)

Who was identified? Is that against the forum rules to try to identify someone? Is that even what happened? I didnâ€™t see anyone being identified. Could someone please explain?

Edit: OK, I see, the breeder was identified. Sorry!!


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## ester (2 November 2019)

jojo5 said:



			The OP mentions that he/she has sent pics/vids of him/her trying the horse to â€˜seniorâ€™ members of the forum (is that membership or age???!!!ðŸ˜œ) - maybe they can at least tell us how it went? Did it seem ok?
		
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It wasn't on post count lol


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## Velcrobum (2 November 2019)

ester said:



			Might have been breed specific not BD GBPRE have their national champs at hartpury.
		
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That is not open to Lipizzaners only pure and part bred Pre horses. The Iberian championships are PRE and Lusitano pure and part breds. So not sure what championship they were taking part in as can find nothing for Lipizzaners!!


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## ester (2 November 2019)

Yes I know, he has a PRE too!


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## planete (2 November 2019)

Velcrobum said:



			That is not open to Lipizzaners only pure and part bred Pre horses. The Iberian championships are PRE and Lusitano pure and part breds. So not sure what championship they were taking part in as can find nothing for Lipizzaners!!
		
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South West Iberian show. Baroque horses.


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## ycbm (2 November 2019)

jojo5 said:



			The OP mentions that he/she has sent pics/vids of him/her trying the horse to â€˜seniorâ€™ members of the forum (is that membership or age???!!!ðŸ˜œ) - maybe they can at least tell us how it went? Did it seem ok?
		
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Another point that sends me slightly towards troll.  If he had done,  why would he swear them to secrecy?  And if they weren't sworn to secrecy, wouldn't  at least one of them have posted  `I've seen the videos, this is real? Why wouldn't he have asked one of them to do that if he's upset at being disbelieved? 

At the very least, we're being played like a fish on a line here ðŸ˜  ðŸŽ£

.


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## Auslander (2 November 2019)

In defence of the OP, I have seen the pics, and all appears above board. He doesn't want to share them on this post, and that's his prerogative.


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## oldie48 (2 November 2019)

He does seem to be an exceptionally friendly stallion though!
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...baby-donkey-HOUSE-pet-horse-wanders-door.html


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## Amymay (2 November 2019)

ðŸ¤£ðŸ˜ƒðŸ¤£ðŸ˜ƒðŸ¤£ðŸ˜ƒ


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## ycbm (2 November 2019)

Auslander said:



			In defence of the OP, I have seen the pics, and all appears above board. He doesn't want to share them on this post, and that's his prerogative.
		
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Good, I'd love it to be real and for him to start a thread about the journey if he buys him.


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## oldie48 (2 November 2019)

ycbm said:



			Good, I'd love it to be real and for him to start a thread about the journey if he buys him.
		
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I was totally intrigued by this story, not sure what to think so didn't contribute and yes i'd like to follow the story too. I met someone recently at a training who had a GP schoolmaster on loan from a well known rider. she felt very lucky to have the opportunity as she wasn't really a dressage rider but she was a very experienced show producer who clearly had a very good standard of riding. She was making me laugh by relating her first experiences of riding this lovely huge horse, she said she struggled to get him to walk and tended to passage and piaffe all the time, couldn't find a working trot and canter was a complete non starter. It wasn't just the buttons and sensitivity of the horse that she had to learn to deal with but also it's huge movement. she was having  such fun as the horse was relatively forgiving and she was getting a lot of help. I can only assume the OP was dumbing down his experience and ability to ride but I thought the horse being a stallion was possibly the least of his worries. 'd love to know how he gets on though!


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## milliepops (2 November 2019)

If it's the horse that was linked to earlier, it doesn't look like the OP would struggle in the same way, at least from videos that are available to the public on social media.


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## Courbette (2 November 2019)

oldie48 said:



			I was totally intrigued by this story, not sure what to think so didn't contribute and yes i'd like to follow the story too. I met someone recently at a training who had a GP schoolmaster on loan from a well known rider. she felt very lucky to have the opportunity as she wasn't really a dressage rider but she was a very experienced show producer who clearly had a very good standard of riding. She was making me laugh by relating her first experiences of riding this lovely huge horse, she said she struggled to get him to walk and tended to passage and piaffe all the time, couldn't find a working trot and canter was a complete non starter. It wasn't just the buttons and sensitivity of the horse that she had to learn to deal with but also it's huge movement. she was having  such fun as the horse was relatively forgiving and she was getting a lot of help. I can only assume the OP was dumbing down his experience and ability to ride but I thought the horse being a stallion was possibly the least of his worries. 'd love to know how he gets on though!
		
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I think sometimes you can also meet some incredibly generous people in the horse world or just be in the right place at the right time. I'd love to follow the progress too as it is an incredible opportunity


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## OldNag (2 November 2019)

I must admit I did think  this was a troll thread  it sounded too good to be true. 

Chuffed to see it is genuine  and I hope OP does keep the forum updated with his progress


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## cundlegreen (2 November 2019)

ycbm said:



			Another point that sends me slightly towards troll.  If he had done,  why would he swear them to secrecy?  And if they weren't sworn to secrecy, wouldn't  at least one of them have posted  `I've seen the videos, this is real? Why wouldn't he have asked one of them to do that if he's upset at being disbelieved? 

At the very least, we're being played like a fish on a line here ðŸ˜  ðŸŽ£

.
		
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Well, he's messaged me with a couple of photos, but that's his business, isn't it?


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## ycbm (2 November 2019)

cundlegreen said:



			Well, he's messaged me with a couple of photos, but that's his business, isn't it?
		
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Yes, it is, but he was taking offence at not being believed when it was in his own hands, and yours as it happens, to solve that.

I'm really pleased it's real. 

.


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## ycbm (2 November 2019)

Hedgepig, now it's clear that this is for real, I'm still in the no camp for keeping a stallion in livery in the UK.  I'm also on a no for not being motivated enough to ride for twenty years and then taking on this particular horse after that break. I'm on a no for a couple having horses at different livery yards.  But if the current owner wants your girlfriend to ride the horse and you are kind enough to buy it on the basis that you may be playing second fiddle to her with your own horse,  then go for it,  it's the opportunity of a lifetime.  

You had a tough start on the forum because you hit a number of hot buttons with your once in a lifetime opportunity and your elaborate way of talking about it. But I can guarantee you that the forum would absolutely love to hear about your journey with this horse if you buy him.  And if you start a new thread about him,  you will be welcomed and encouraged, not mocked.  

Please consider it,  the forum needs exciting stories like this to follow.


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## Cinnamontoast (2 November 2019)

oldie48 said:



			He does seem to be an exceptionally friendly stallion though!
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...baby-donkey-HOUSE-pet-horse-wanders-door.html

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Good spot!


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## Remi'sMum (2 November 2019)

Iâ€™m another that has followed this thread but not contributed. I know nothing about stallions, haute ecole (bumbling about at novice here!), or the horse/trainer in question - so nothing constructive to contribute. 

But I would absolutely love to know how this pans out HedgePig - itâ€™s an opportunity most people wouldnâ€™t have in their wildest dreams, and it would be great if youâ€™d keep us posted.


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## bonny (2 November 2019)

I think some of you might be in line for a very long wait !


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## Fabled Thoroughbred (2 November 2019)

Iâ€™d love to see more pretty Lippizaner pictures!!


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## Velcrobum (2 November 2019)

planete said:



			South West Iberian show. Baroque horses.
		
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But that is not Hartpury National championship it is Grange Farm. Baroque horses do not seem to have a "breed show". It now appears Zen is/was owned by Lisa Ginsberg but the trainer Nejc Turinek/ Turninek might/might not be the owner. All very very convoluted and confusing have absolutely no idea what to believe any more in this thread.


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## splashgirl45 (2 November 2019)

Cinnamontoast said:



			Good spot!
		
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am i thick, i dont see what this has to do with HP s horse....this stallion is 3 and a half,  i thought the other one was 10 or am i imagining that?


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## ester (2 November 2019)

well it was 3 and half, it's grown up since , it's a 2015 article


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## {97702} (2 November 2019)

ester said:



			well it was 3 and half, it's grown up since , it's a 2015 article
		
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My maths isnâ€™t great I freely admit, but.....


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## Tiddlypom (2 November 2019)

Though if he was 3.5 years old in 2015, he wonâ€™t be 10 now.


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## splashgirl45 (2 November 2019)

still only makes him 7 and a half not 10


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## be positive (2 November 2019)

splashgirl45 said:



			am i thick, i dont see what this has to do with HP s horse....this stallion is 3 and a half,  i thought the other one was 10 or am i imagining that?
		
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That was from 2015 so it is 7/8 now.
The claim he is a national psg champion on the yard website is an interesting one, that is clearly untrue.

I was one of the sceptics from the start and still have doubts as to why this horse would be offered to a rider with limited experience of classical riding when the current rider is developing him, using him for demos and as a shop window, I guess it must be more financially viable than keeping him so makes complete sense from that point of view, as it has no BD record there would probably be no real interest as a competition horse and that would be reflected in his value.


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## milliepops (2 November 2019)

Why does anyone assume the DM can report any equestrian facts with any accuracy?  ðŸ¤£  normally when articles are linked on here they are full of glaring errors


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## ester (2 November 2019)

quite, it's the daily mail, I was giving them a few years leeway at least!

and OP said 'He is 'around' 10 years old. '

The old BAPSH nationals results aren't available, I do understand why the would assume the website would mean BD but it doesn't say that. It doesn't spell Hartpury right either though


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## ycbm (3 November 2019)

be positive said:



			That was from 2015 so it is 7/8 now.
The claim he is a national psg champion on the yard website is an interesting one, that is clearly untrue.

I was one of the sceptics from the start and still have doubts as to why this horse would be offered to a rider with limited experience of classical riding when the current rider is developing him, using him for demos and as a shop window, I guess it must be more financially viable than keeping him so makes complete sense from that point of view, as it has no BD record there would probably be no real interest as a competition horse and that would be reflected in his value.
		
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BP I met a few Iberian afficionados while a friend  was looking for one a few years back and for the most part they were entirely dismissive of BD and would not be looking for a BD record to add value to a horse.

Hartpury runs the PRE National shows using non-BD high level tests and I see no reason to doubt that the trainer has at some point won there on a PRE in a PSG level test that isn't called PSG in PRE circles. It may have been roughly translated for the purposes of that bit of PR, which is designed to attract riders who will more likely want to compete BD, perhaps.

.


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## milliepops (3 November 2019)

Lots of people mis-spell Hartputy fwiw 
I live 15 miles away so see lots of mis spellings on local FB groups etc.


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## be positive (3 November 2019)

I appreciate they may not be interested in BD but the horse that was champion this year at the S/w Iberian show does do BD at PSG level, very successfully, as does  a PRE owned by a former member on here so it can be done if they want to train riders that are not exclusively riding Iberians but having now seen a video of the horse in question I can see it would struggle to perform a test based on the scales of training, which is what the BD tests are.


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## Tiddlypom (3 November 2019)

Performing fancy twiddly above the ground moves without the basics being installed? The Spanish riding school is very clear that the correct way of going is well established before the fancy moves are attempted.


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## Tiddlypom (3 November 2019)

Having now seen a video of the horse and his current rider performing some sort of crooked shuffle to music at a demo, I can see that the basics are very much not installed .


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## FlyingCircus (3 November 2019)

Curious where you guys have found this vid!


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## Velcrobum (3 November 2019)

Tiddlypom said:



			Having now seen a video of the horse and his current rider performing some sort of crooked shuffle to music at a demo, I can see that the basics are very much not installed .
		
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Please share as I think there are many on this thread who would like to watch it!!


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## TPO (3 November 2019)

Don't have a dog in this fight and it has zero impact on me if the OP is telling the truth or not but is it really necessary to start slagging off a horse that belongs to and was trained by someone who is not on this forum?

The OP question was about stallion keeping in the UK and the handling of stallions. Nothing more and nothing less.

Now it's descended into criticising a stranger's horse and its competition record and perceived training and riding.

If you've nothing better going on in your lives than to take the time to set about the OP rather than just scrolling on by that's not my circus but it's really not necessary to start on a horse that belongs to someone else? 

Nothing on the internet dies and trash talk about a horse will be there for someone to find at any point in the present or future. What if it is decided to stand this horse at stud and a thread full of people who don't train or ride to that level are criticising the ability of the horse.


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## Amymay (3 November 2019)

Don't have a dog in this fight and it has zero impact on me if the OP is telling the truth or not but is it really necessary to start slagging off a horse that belongs to and was trained by someone who is not on this forum?
		
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Got to agree


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## milliepops (3 November 2019)

Personally when I came across the videos it was not to rip into the OP, it was mostly more reassuring that the horse did not look so insanely sensitive as to be completely unsuitable for a rusty rider, which is sort of how it came across in the early posts from the OP.

eta I agree it's not our place to criticise and people decide not to compete their horses for all manner of reasons. I think others were more surprised that there doesn't seem to be an affiliated record when the horse is described as a champion, more from curiosity than anything else. I hope the OP comes back but I would think it unlikely now.


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## Velcrobum (3 November 2019)

milliepops said:



			Personally when I came across the videos it was not to rip into the OP, it was mostly more reassuring that the horse did not look so insanely sensitive as to be completely unsuitable for a rusty rider, which is sort of how it came across in the early posts from the OP.
		
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Could you share please.


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## milliepops (3 November 2019)

not really my place but the yard linked to earlier has a public FB page.


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## ycbm (3 November 2019)

milliepops said:



			Lots of people mis-spell Hartputy fwiw 

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Was that deliberate?  Good fun either way.   ðŸ¤£


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## TPO (3 November 2019)

milliepops said:



			Personally when I came across the videos it was not to rip into the OP, it was mostly more reassuring that the horse did not look so insanely sensitive as to be completely unsuitable for a rusty rider, which is sort of how it came across in the early posts from the OP.

eta I agree it's not our place to criticise and people decide not to compete their horses for all manner of reasons. I think others were more surprised that there doesn't seem to be an affiliated record when the horse is described as a champion, more from curiosity than anything else. I hope the OP comes back but I would think it unlikely now.
		
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I'm not the forum police and people can post whatever they want. However some of what is posted on here, not just this thread, is out of order, unkind and unnecessary at times.

Someone owns this horse, at least one person has put time and effort into producing and competing him. I just dont agree that it is right for someone to start criticising all of that when a critique wasnt asked for and no one knows the horse let alone had sat on it. 

FWIW I didnt see any post from MP critising the horse or the rider in any video(s)


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## FlyingCircus (3 November 2019)

If anything, this thread is a very good lesson/reminder to all that post here and on similar websites that although it can sometimes "feel" you are quite anonymous, the internet can mean it is very easy to fins information and link things together that you would not anticipate.


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## milliepops (3 November 2019)

ycbm said:



			Was that deliberate?  Good fun either way.   ðŸ¤£
		
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nope just clumsy thumbs outside in the rain this morning!  but it's true, Harbury, Hatpury, Hartbury are all common


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## Auslander (3 November 2019)

Is it even the right horse? Just saying...


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## Red-1 (3 November 2019)

The singing was nice.

Who knows if it is the right horse or not? If it is, I can see why it would be sold to someone less experienced, who would just enjoy the horse for what it is, and for the fact that it does appear to be very obedient.  It may be a match made in heaven.

Every horse is someone's dream horse.

Hedgepig, if you like the horse, go for it. Even though you know the seller slightly, or in fact very much so because you do (as difficulties later down the line can often break up a friendship) I would have the horse vetted by an independent, equine specialist, vet. 

I have known several stallions that you would not have known were stallions when kept properly. If ever you had to move yards, I know that many good SJ yards have stallions and also accept livery. I would think top dressage yards would be the same. It sounds like you did not intend to go board him down at the local DIY yard anyway.


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## MrPerkins (3 November 2019)

I do love this forum sometimes.

Sh*t, this appears to be true - there must be something wrong with it  HHO, ACTIVATE!


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## Fabled Thoroughbred (3 November 2019)

TPO said:



			Don't have a dog in this fight and it has zero impact on me if the OP is telling the truth or not but is it really necessary to start slagging off a horse that belongs to and was trained by someone who is not on this forum?

The OP question was about stallion keeping in the UK and the handling of stallions. Nothing more and nothing less.

Now it's descended into criticising a stranger's horse and its competition record and perceived training and riding.

If you've nothing better going on in your lives than to take the time to set about the OP rather than just scrolling on by that's not my circus but it's really not necessary to start on a horse that belongs to someone else?

Nothing on the internet dies and trash talk about a horse will be there for someone to find at any point in the present or future. What if it is decided to stand this horse at stud and a thread full of people who don't train or ride to that level are criticising the ability of the horse.
		
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TPO said:



			I'm not the forum police and people can post whatever they want. However some of what is posted on here, not just this thread, is out of order, unkind and unnecessary at times.

Someone owns this horse, at least one person has put time and effort into producing and competing him. I just dont agree that it is right for someone to start criticising all of that when a critique wasnt asked for and no one knows the horse let alone had sat on it.

FWIW I didnt see any post from MP critising the horse or the rider in any video(s)
		
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I agree. The details were added as extra context, not stalking fodder. This has gotten out of hand.


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## Cinnamontoast (3 November 2019)

As they said in Waynesâ€™ World, she can really wail. ðŸ˜‚ Jolly nice singing.


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## cundlegreen (3 November 2019)

TPO said:



			Don't have a dog in this fight and it has zero impact on me if the OP is telling the truth or not but is it really necessary to start slagging off a horse that belongs to and was trained by someone who is not on this forum?

The OP question was about stallion keeping in the UK and the handling of stallions. Nothing more and nothing less.

Now it's descended into criticising a stranger's horse and its competition record and perceived training and riding.

If you've nothing better going on in your lives than to take the time to set about the OP rather than just scrolling on by that's not my circus but it's really not necessary to start on a horse that belongs to someone else? 

Nothing on the internet dies and trash talk about a horse will be there for someone to find at any point in the present or future. What if it is decided to stand this horse at stud and a thread full of people who don't train or ride to that level are criticising the ability of the horse.
		
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You took the words right out of my mouth! I am amazed at the number of people on this forum who have nothing better to do than to dig up info and then rubbish strangers on here. There are far more important things in life, and I'm not surprised that Hedgepig had had enough of you lot.


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## HedgePig (4 November 2019)

Hello forum,

I hope that this last post will end the speculation, some of which has been quite unkind.

The horse in question is Zen.

In a meeting this morning with the owner we have decided to not go ahead with the purchase of this stallion. The main reason for my part is he is simply too much horse for me and given he was for me, relying on my partner to make up the shortfall in skills is not a sensible approach for a horse of this calibre. Could we make it work, probably. But given the risks in a stallion we feel its a little too ambitious for the moment. I am personally quite disappointed, sad really. But we feel it is the right decision. I hope you will share my feelings here and try to support our being 'grown up' about it. I must send a shout out to the folks at Fitzworthy, they were nothing short of amazing too. (I think they might be even more disappointed!) 

As discovered in the DM article, Zen is a friendly chap. 

I would ask that suggestions like our ability to afford the horse etc come to an end, or where the money comes from is really quite bizarre. I don't even understand the relevance. Finances played a fairly small role in this decision. Though I will say the associated costs (for anyone wanting a high spec stallion) are not small. To those who treated this whole thing as surprising but unusual and supported us I must say a special thank you. I have shared videos and photos of me and my gf on the horse and yes, even performing his airs. All true. All real. For where I have been vague it was motivated by a single desire to protect the identity of the man who owns the horse for whom I have a huge amount of respect. And he is also a friend. Unfortunately this has not stopped much of the speculation but that will be for someone else to answer. I have no doubt he will read this at some point as has been said and may try to determine who the real people are behind these claims. It is a small community after all.

For now we have put our search for a horse on hold. This experience has highlighted several areas where I (as a rider) need to improve and I shall be working with the trainer to get these dealt with, where we may in fact go through this process again. It has been a pleasure and a privilege to ride this horse and in a wider sense be exposed to a school of riding I really didn't know much about to start.

So in closing I have learnt a lot about turning to an open forum for advice. For one I think I need thicker skin before I come back here. 
I don't accept that the broader/wider horse community is rude and opinionated, as was suggested. I have found the direct messages from several senior members to be nothing short of amazing and without naming names I say thank you.

Happy to stick around and answer more questions if anyone has them, but I will ask please that the speculation ends today. Thank you. Hedge.

(Edited to correct spelling errors.)


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## Amymay (4 November 2019)

Thanks for the update. I wish you well in your search for a horse for yourself.


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## Tarragon (4 November 2019)

I am sorry it didn't work out for you this time. Good luck in your horse search


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## eggs (4 November 2019)

Hope this hasn't put you off the horseworld - fortunately from your post it doesn't sound as though it has.  Good luck in your search for a suitable horse when you feel the time is right.


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## Floofball (4 November 2019)

Thanks for updating HP - you are probably doing the sensible thing but do feel a little disappointed for you ðŸ˜• it sounds like you might have found a new direction to follow and youâ€™ve had an amazing experience too! Good luck to all of you and especially the gorgeous Zen


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## Velcrobum (4 November 2019)

Good luck with finding a horse more suited to your needs and ability. He/she will be out there somewhere!!


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## splashgirl45 (4 November 2019)

thankyou for updating and explaining why you are not going ahead.  you sound like a very sensible chap and i hope your search, when you start, will result in a new hoirsey partner for you....


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## Red-1 (4 November 2019)

I am quite sad that you have decided not to have him. But also excited that you have time to decide exactly what you do want. Then chase round the country looking for it!

Good luck!


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## scats (4 November 2019)

Havenâ€™t commented before because I donâ€™t really have enough experience of stallions, but Iâ€™m sure there will be super horse out there for you to enjoy.

Good luck!


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## cauda equina (4 November 2019)

I just hope that having experienced an Aston Martin stallion, the OP won't be put off a Discovery gelding


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## oldie48 (4 November 2019)

Thank you HP for coming back and sharing your decision, I'm another who is a bit disappointed but tbh I think you done the right thing if you think you would be a bit over-horsed but don't under horse yourself either, you seem like someone who is up for a challenge and might get bored with a horse that is too easy. I've found this forum a great resource, very supportive and sometimes quite direct. Having been a member for  few years now, I know who I trust to give me sensible advice and tbh I disregard the rest. Don't disappear and please let us know how you get on in your quest for a horsey partner. The best bit of advice I've been given (and some won't agree)  is if you buy the wrong horse, don't stick with it too long, be prepared to spend a bit of money on good training and if that doesn't work, move it on to someone more suitable and start again. Good luck!


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## charlie76 (4 November 2019)

I have just bought a 4 year old PRE stallion, he is very easy to handle and ride, he hacks with the others and is turned out daily with a other gelding. He also is happy to tie up with mares coming past. I imported him 2 weeks ago.


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## Fabled Thoroughbred (4 November 2019)

charlie76 said:



			I have just bought a 4 year old PRE stallion, he is very easy to handle and ride, he hacks with the others and is turned out daily with a other gelding. He also is happy to tie up with mares coming past. I imported him 2 weeks ago.
		
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GASP, that horse is GORGEOUS!!

Sorry to hear, HP, maybe youâ€™ll gain a bit more time back in the saddle and youâ€™ll be able to re-evaluate in the future if you feel you can handle it!!


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## ycbm (4 November 2019)

HP thanks for the update. After all the speculation its very nice of you to have done that. I'm sorry it didn't work out but I think you made a very wise decision. When you start to look for a horse for you, you will find HHO an incredible lot for scouring  Facebook and all the selling sites for you for anything that meets your spec (and a few that don't  ðŸ˜‚).

.


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## Remi'sMum (5 November 2019)

Thanks for the update Hedge. I feel a bit sad for you too - what an amazing opportunity came your way! Definitely a story for the grandkids!! The day I did levade on Zen!! However, it sounds like youâ€™ve made a sensible decision with the horses best interests primarily at heart and THAT means that when you do eventually find a horse of your own, you will be a very good owner. Youâ€™ve got your head screwed on right and I wish you lots of luck with the next chapter!


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