# Beyond belief....



## Armas (29 May 2013)

Firstly my heart goes out to Lee Rigby's family. I have read most of the comments in the Woolwich thread and Alec Swan makes some very good points.

I to also spent many years living in many countries including the middle east I lived both in towns and with the Bedouins in the desert. 
As a Brit living in a Muslim land I would never ever have been allowed to carry on like this as per the people in the video..... I would have been thrown in jail and deported. 

This was filmed last year its frustrating how we have got to this point. Its time we shrug of Europe's control tighten up our boarders as its currently a joke and those extremists that can be deported that have broken the law should be deported. No ifs no buts no expensive appeals at tax payers cost kick them out.
I do believe our country is in dire trouble and within our lifetime it's identity will be lost. 

[youtube]psZBaJU_Cvo[/youtube]


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## Maesfen (29 May 2013)

Couldn't agree more with you OP.


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## fburton (29 May 2013)

Some ignorant extremist views there!  

Another video from the same source, slightly less subtle...

[youtube]l6y6Lm3MlbQ[/youtube]

ETA: Webpage of original report...
http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/bbcthree/2012/02/my-hometown-fanatics-stacey-dooley.shtml


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## shannonandtay (29 May 2013)

Sickening, why would you choose to live in a country that you so obviously hate and despise, I know I certainly wouldn't.  Whether you are born here or not if you hate the place so much and the people in it, go and live where you like their views and policies.  Maybe not because you wouldn't be allowed to march through the streets telling everyone to burn in hell


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## Bigbenji (29 May 2013)

I'm almost speechless at that first video


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## Purple18 (29 May 2013)

I don't undertsand why if muslims  want to live here if we should all go to hell for not beileveing what they beileve.

some muslim people beileve we "pick" on them and balme them for everything.

if it was a white person that killed lee rigby i would still be as angry and upset  to me it doesn't matter what religon on race you are i still think that person deserves everything the press and media throw at them


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## FairyLights (29 May 2013)

I agree


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## DizzyDoughnut (29 May 2013)

That is unbelievable.  How is it OK for them to walk round shouting that, yet I'm sure if we walked round shouting something similar about them, that would probably be far from OK.


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## 1stclassalan (29 May 2013)

Armas said:



			As a Brit living in a Muslim land I would never ever have been allowed to carry on like this as per the people in the video..... I would have been thrown in jail and deported.
		
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That depends on whether you had about a thousand other folk demonstrating with you like these guys and girls - also notice the Rent-a-Mob special offer placards - there's a single organising force behind this march.




			This was filmed last year its frustrating how we have got to this point.
		
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Ah well you can start fighting back by boycotting Vauxhall Motors because it was their idea to encourage immigrant workers to Luton. 




			Its time we shrug of Europe's control tighten up our boarders as its currently a joke
		
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Your spelling and grammar could do with some tightening too! What makes you think that any of the folk in the video are immigrants or anything to do with Europe?




			... and those extremists that can be deported that have broken the law should be deported.
		
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Any immigrant convicted of any crime here is routinely deported at the end of serving any imposed sentence NOW! You are confusing the case of Abu Whatshisname - who ironically - hasn't done anything worth prosecuting here - he's the subject of a failed extradition proceeding - to Jordan, which last time I looked - was not in Europe.




			I do believe our country is in dire trouble and within our lifetime it's identity will be lost.
		
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My dear, this country lost it's identity in the 990's when the Danes started arriving - then again in 1066 when the friggin' Normans conquered us and changed everything that was previous! We had all sorts arrive in dribs and drabs in Medieval times, Jews, Hugeneots etc., then two lots of Americans in 1917/18 and 1943/45 - we have been in their thrall ever since. 

If you doubt this - listen to "There'll be blue birds over the White Cliffs of Dover" for many people it epitomises the Second World War yet.... when were there EVER Blue Birds over Dover or anywhere else in the U.K.? They are flippin' Swallows! OUR SONG was written in America.

Levi Jeans anyone? McDonnalds, Wendys, Starbucks, chewing gum, and black guys wearing their baseball caps the wrong way round.


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## Pale Rider (29 May 2013)

This appears to be a far bigger problem than most people are aware of, I certainly didn't know that some Muslims didn't see British law as relevant in their society.

1stclassalan, makes quite a few points there. It's true that historically were have been subject of many, many influxes of different people. We haven't in modern times, though, had our culture, identity, religion and laws all so vociferously attacked, without the right to argue back for fear of being labeled racist.


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## Alec Swan (29 May 2013)

Armas and fburton,  thank you both for your postings.  I found both of the clips that you showed to be deeply disturbing with such conflicting arguments and views,  that I'm at a loss as to how to unravel my thoughts;

Beware the extremists,  regardless of their argument,  would be a start.  

I agree Armas,  that the film that you showed was deeply offensive and worrying in that there are those who would appear to have no concept of the word "harmony" and would appear to have no intention of living in such a state.  It would seem that there are extremists who would come here and change our lives.  This is a point which would have nothing to do with the discontent felt by those countries where we have provoked a reaction.  I would be more than happy to see such provocative and racist marches and meetings banned.

fburton,  your film was equally disturbing and whilst valid points were made,  as those Shariah exponents in the first film,  again we are having others make their points by claiming that the extremists are at the core of Islam,  and just as with Christianity,  so it's those who shout the loudest who are heard soonest.  

We have to consider that the vast majority of Muslims,  be they in this country or their home lands,  are Law abiding members of ours and their various communities,  and they live lives where they integrate and fit in with their neighbours,  regardless of sect or creed.  

I'm not and never have been of a mind to have others come to our land,  and dictate what they will accept.  Those who come here fit in with us,  and accept what we offer them.  If they don't like living here,  that's fine,  they can sod off.  That's really the base line of a reasoned argument,  and isn't in any way a soft option.

The problem is worsening in that there are many disaffected young men,  born in this country,  of Middle Eastern origin and they are the willing victims who are being radicalised by those who would use them as stooges.  A non-English speaking Somali or Pakistani may draw the attention of our security forces.  A holidaying London lad,  doesn't.

I'd also offer you something which I bumped into,  quite by chance,  and since starting this post.  It's below and I hope that you'll all read it,  and perhaps ponder on how we deal with the extremist and dangerous elements of Society.  We have the support of the average man,  I feel sure.

_"In a statement issued 24 hours after the incidence, Sayd Muqtada al-Sadr condemned the horrific crime at Woolwich, South London

In his statement, which was an answer to a question forwarded to him by a Sunni brother who lives in the West:

 - We are all concerned regarding (the rise) of these extreme voices

- Beheading people, this disgraceful and ugly act, what do they want from carrying out such act? Defending Islam, is that what they want, the are making a big mistake, this disgraceful and ugly act, weakens Islam & destroys its reputation

- Whoever has committed this crime deserves punishment and to be boycotted

- Cursed are the hands of those who behead people in London and elsewhere, and those extremists who place bombs in Iraq, Afghanistan and elsewhere

- Even if they (the West) were occupiers of our land, this does not give us the right to confront them with terror. If they make mistakes by occupying our land, then we should confront them with our honourable manners, from our great religion

- And Even they don&#8217;t withdraw from our land, we still condemn the crime of beheading and all forms of terrorism

- I finally call upon Muslims who live in the West: Beware of extremism and deviation from Islam. Ensure that you reflect a good image about Islam and Muslims, Sunni&#8217;s or Shia&#8217;s, so this may be a an opportunity for guidance and strength for you all.

By Al-Sadr Office

View all articles by Al-Sadr Office

Sayd Muqtada al-Sadr condemns Woolwich crime

May 24th, 2013 - 12:46 am

Sheikh Mohammed al-Yaqoobi visits Sayd Muqtada al-Sadr

May 7th, 2013 - 8:02 pm"
_

Why is it that the moderate man is never heard?

Alec.


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## Fools Motto (29 May 2013)

Watching that first video, I felt threatened, and I'm only watching it! What is this world coming to? Some giant wanna-be cult?


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## Armas (29 May 2013)

1stclassalan said:



			That depends on whether you had about a thousand other folk demonstrating with you like these guys and girls - also notice the Rent-a-Mob special offer placards - there's a single organising force behind this march.



Ah well you can start fighting back by boycotting Vauxhall Motors because it was their idea to encourage immigrant workers to Luton. 



Your spelling and grammar could do with some tightening too! What makes you think that any of the folk in the video are immigrants or anything to do with Europe?



Any immigrant convicted of any crime here is routinely deported at the end of serving any imposed sentence NOW! You are confusing the case of Abu Whatshisname - who ironically - hasn't done anything worth prosecuting here - he's the subject of a failed extradition proceeding - to Jordan, which last time I looked - was not in Europe.



My dear, this country lost it's identity in the 990's when the Danes started arriving - then again in 1066 when the friggin' Normans conquered us and changed everything that was previous! We had all sorts arrive in dribs and drabs in Medieval times, Jews, Hugeneots etc., then two lots of Americans in 1917/18 and 1943/45 - we have been in their thrall ever since. 

If you doubt this - listen to "There'll be blue birds over the White Cliffs of Dover" for many people it epitomises the Second World War yet.... when were there EVER Blue Birds over Dover or anywhere else in the U.K.? They are flippin' Swallows! OUR SONG was written in America.

Levi Jeans anyone? McDonnalds, Wendys, Starbucks, chewing gum, and black guys wearing their baseball caps the wrong way round.
		
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My Dear,

1)This problem is not isolated to Luton.

2)Thank you for pointing out that my spelling and grammar need work. Given that I am dyslexic I am aware of this. However my spelling and grammar have not stopped me in becoming successful and living my dream.

3) May I suggest that you actually do some research before you make such an ill-informed statement. Europes constant interfering is a problem.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...ls-and-illegal-immigrants-we-cant-deport.html

4) Thank you for the history lesson. I was totally unaware of those facts  We have moved on since the dates you have quoted.


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## DressageCob (29 May 2013)

I've never seen a Wendys in England, I must say. Maybe they just haven't reached the North.

And who said that wearing baseball caps the wrong way round was limited to black men? I've seen many a white girl rocking that look 

I didn't like the first video. Whilst the scenes in it were shocking, the main girl was pretty hopeless. She jsut kept repeating people's insults back at them, rather than properly challenging or responding to what they were saying. Granted, there was limited time for a debate. But just repeating over and over "so I'm going to burn in Hell" is not helping anyone.

The other chap was far more eloquent. I don't agree with all that he says, but he put his argument well. Personally no religion offends me. Extremists within that religion (whichever religion that is, be it Protestants or Catholics, Sikhs, Hindus, or anything else) do. I really don't agree with generalisations saying that all immigration is bad (and immigration isn't really relevant to a religious debate in my view. Integration is an issue whichever generation of immigrant a person is, or even if their ancestors have been here since the dark ages). The question is community  integration and segregation, not immigration. If communities were more open to integration there would not be these tensions between the different sections of society. I also don't agree with generalisations that all Muslims are bad. It's really nonsense. It's a vocal minority of a massive group. The same way that the EDL doesn't represent the views of the whole of the white British population. And the IRA doesn't demonstrate the position of every Irish Catholic. 

I don't think an entire religious community should be criticised and feared because of the actions of a small proportion of its members.


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## competitiondiva (29 May 2013)

omg, the views of people are astoundng.....


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## justabob (29 May 2013)

Enoch Powell predicted this happening in the early 70s and by god it has come true, he was damned as a racist then......... It is a shame people dismissed him as a fanatic, to late now as we will be taken over before long. God help us.


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## Goldenstar (29 May 2013)

How do you protect your self against reckless hate that's the question we are going to have to ask ourselves sooner rather than later.


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## char3479 (29 May 2013)

justabob said:



			Enoch Powell predicted this happening in the early 70s and by god it has come true, he was damned as a racist then......... It is a shame people dismissed him as a fanatic, to late now as we will be taken over before long. God help us.
		
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Taken over by what exactly?  I can't believe the amount of people using the actions of a select few nutters as reason to condemn an entire culture. Have I been transported back to the 1040s?


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## char3479 (29 May 2013)

char3479 said:



			Taken over by what exactly?  I can't believe the amount of people using the actions of a select few nutters as reason to condemn an entire culture. Have I been transported back to the 1040s?
		
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That was supposed to read 1940s but whatever, the point remains the same. Are we regressing?


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## justabob (29 May 2013)

char3479 said:



			Taken over by what exactly?  I can't believe the amount of people using the actions of a select few nutters as reason to condemn an entire culture. Have I been transported back to the 1040s?
		
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The select few nutters are causing murder and mayhem in OUR country, nobody is condemning an entire culture at all. Just asking them to keep their culture in their own bloody country.


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## Tiffany (29 May 2013)

I hadn't seen that first video before and I am shocked. Why stay somewhere when you clearly don't like the place or have any respect for anyones beliefs but your own?


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## hackneylass2 (30 May 2013)

I dont care who comes to our country, as long as they uphold our country's laws.  There will always be extremists but they are never the majority.

What does concern me though, are the Shari'a Courts and Councils. An interesting article,
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/rel...s-consensual-as-rape-House-of-Lords-told.html

 but seek out the documentary 'Inside British Shari'a Courts', I watched it recently and was dumbfounded. There are some very insidious and worrying things going on that should be stamped out, particularly in the field of womens' rights.  Apart from the extremists, there must be thousands of Muslim women living in quiet fear and subjugation in the UK, whom the laws of our country are forgetting, or ignoring.


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## char3479 (30 May 2013)

justabob said:



			The select few nutters are causing murder and mayhem in OUR country, nobody is condemning an entire culture at all. Just asking them to keep their culture in their own bloody country.
		
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Would you clarify please which other cultures are allowed in 'OUR' country?


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## 1stclassalan (30 May 2013)

helenalbert said:



			And who said that wearing baseball caps the wrong way round was limited to black men? I've seen many a white girl rocking that look :.
		
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Ah the irony of that statement! The fact that a FOREIGN influence has been adopted and assimulated within our society is my very point!


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## 1stclassalan (30 May 2013)

Armas said:



			1)This problem is not isolated to Luton.
		
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Quite so but I was dealing with the case in hand - not many other towns have had similar marches.




			May I suggest that you actually do some research before you make such an ill-informed statement.
		
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Feel free to make the sweeping statement of what you think my basis for opinion is - but you really have no idea of how much "research" I've done.

I could say that you leave yourself open - at least to a charge of ommision by quoting The Telegraph:-
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...ls-and-illegal-immigrants-we-cant-deport.html 

As to my reckoning these cases are nothing more than blatantly Conservative anti-European anything Justices flinging their weight around because they can.




			Thank you for the history lesson...... We have moved on since the dates you have quoted.
		
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Some would say that it is our adherence to American policy and their influence which has started all this business so I think your point needs work.


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## fburton (30 May 2013)

Mdonna31 said:



			Maybe because they are few and far between, whilst the extremists amount to thousands ....thats worrying
		
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If true... I'm not sure it is though. It may or may not be. The problem is that extremists shout and moderates tend to be quiet, so guess who gets heard. We need to find ways to give the moderate voices platforms and outlets to be heard by everyone. However, I suspect the Muslim moderates have more of an influence with Muslims than we assume from seeing events like the one shown in the video, which are high profile by dint of being sharable via YouTube. To be honest, though, I don't know for sure.


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## fburton (30 May 2013)

justabob said:



			The select few nutters are causing murder and mayhem in OUR country, nobody is condemning an entire culture at all. Just asking them to keep their culture in their own bloody country.
		
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_All_ of their culture, or just the bits we don't like? Wouldn't it be more realistic (and tolerant) to restrict condemnation to those aspects that break laws or cause real harm (not just offence)? I don't go around Glasgow telling Celtic fans and their families to eff off back to their own country - not that I've been particularly bothered personally by anyone's religious beliefs.

Btw, there was an excellent discussion of free speech on last night's Unreliable Evidence (BBC R4):

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b01sn9cf


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## fburton (30 May 2013)

Goldenstar said:



			How do you protect your self against reckless hate that's the question we are going to have to ask ourselves sooner rather than later.
		
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I'm sure many ordinary Muslims are now asking themselves that very question!


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## 1life (30 May 2013)

A very disturbing video , difficult to know how to respond coherently without venting!

But, living close to the area (Herts/Beds border) I would like to say:

I do some work in a school in Luton in which the majority of pupils are from Muslim families. They have different views to us, but they do want to live in harmony. They send their children to a school with a mostly white, C of E, teaching staff because they want their children to grow up as part of our society. The video does show a minority group and I do believe that if they do not want to be peaceful, self-supporting, UK law-abiding citizens then they should be dealt with according to our laws.

I also have relatives who have worked at Vauxhall. Their co-workers were hard-working, family men.

Our country has had a huge amount of influence from other countries BUT things like burger bars, Levi's, St Albans (seems an odd choice to add to the list, but he was German), are not extreme, radical or directed against us.

We do need to toughen up to maintain our identity. But who is going to make that happen? Frustrating, isn't it?


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## Pinkvboots (30 May 2013)

That first video is a disgrace they should not be allowed to stay in this country, how dare they say we should convert to muslim just because they are here and think so, unfortunately us English are now becoming a minority in this country because there are so many immigrants here, if the government had done something about this sooner that soldier may still be alive.


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## Alec Swan (30 May 2013)

1life,

a good post.  Perhaps those who march or lecture would care to consider that tolerance is generally given by way of return.

Racism is just that,  regardless of the colour or race that it's aimed at.

Alec.


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## Rollin (30 May 2013)

It infuriates me that we give new comers to the UK religious freedom but ex-pats living in strict Moslem cultures have to tow their line.  I am 100% in favour of religious and political tolerance.

However, as an ex-pat living in France, I can tell you we have the same here.  My husband and I are very much involved in our local community and shop in the local shops and markets.

Many Brits who move to France never shop outside a supermarket and their social life is centered on other ex-pats. (Immigrants to the UK are always criticised for their ghetto's) When we are off to a local event and invite British friends, they usually respond it is not 'their thing'.  Brits abroad have done this for centuries.

We love our life here.  Lots of things like French bureaucracy drive us nuts but on the rare occassions I venture home to the UK I hate the noise, the traffic and the filthy streets.

We all need to decide what matters most in life.


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## YorksG (30 May 2013)

While we are looking at the history of this, let's not forget how the British Empire operated. Any one know that India was governed by a private company, organised by the British Government? When the Victorians went to colonise places, they showed scant regard for the social and religeous norms of those places. Perhaps this is a case of you reap what you sow?


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## Rollin (30 May 2013)

Yorks G India was at the forefront of my thinking.  Father and Grandfather lived in India, father whom I loved modern, liberal, and tolerant of all views.  He was an exception


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## CBFan (30 May 2013)

UNBELIEVABLE! I really feel for that poor girl. Places like Luton have such a bad reputation that it is hard to believe there are still nice 'normal' british people living there...

I do think this country is going to pot and I couldn't agree with you more OP, when you say that we are losing our identity.

Other European countries wouldn't stand for it.. In France even, locals will turn on their heels if you make no attempt to speak to them in French but if you at least try, they will do their best to help you...


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## elijahasgal (30 May 2013)

We are a nation of tolerance.  People look for reasons to hate, are told we are against them, and so take actions that we need to react against them. Self fulfilling prophesy.
I listened to a speaker a few years ago, someone high in the muslim network, who converted to christianity. He lived in fear of his life, as there are death threats against him.
His message was this. The muslims are told to have as many children as possible, so that with (It is estimated last time that I read) 25 years there will be enough muslims in the country to take it over by democratic vote.
Their plan is to take us over, and all christian and western nations.
And we are letting them
Have you looked at Sharia law? Do you want to be treated as less than a person because you do not believe what they do? 
And no I am not exagerating, just look into it. Listen on you tube to people who have left the religion. Where if you question, you are labeled a trouble maker and entitled as such to be stoned or beheaded.
All groups like this are doing, believe it or not, is alienating people against them, and bringing some of their plans and attitudes into the open. They should be expelled from the country, to countries that have the rules that they believe in.  They can be happy there, rather than drawing on benefits paid for by people that want to be in this country and not destroy it from the inside out.


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## 1stclassalan (30 May 2013)

YorksG said:



			While we are looking at the history of this, let's not forget how the British Empire operated. Any one know that India was governed by a private company, organised by the British Government? When the Victorians went to colonise places, they showed scant regard for the social and religeous norms of those places. Perhaps this is a case of you reap what you sow?
		
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Yes and no. In the beginning India was contacted by so called merchant adventurers and later the British East India Company that actually fought wars on the sub-continent but after Clive and the Battle of Plessy, it was directly ruled by the British Crown and Queen Victoria became Empress of India - the Jewel in the Crown. Things went along fine as for the most part we let Indians rule themselves by assisting one Maharahja against another so long has he pledged allegance to us. Apart from regarding the Indians ( and everybody else ) as basically inferior to us white Brits - the Victorians left religious and social norms completely as they were.

It was actually Queen Victoria herself who put her foot in it by saying that all Indians were as British as everybody else in her Empire which created the legal president and the Right of Domicile in Great Britain for any that wished to come - back then, no one thought they would.......


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## MagicMelon (30 May 2013)

Totally agree OP. These extremists obviously think the UK is a joke.  I hate to think what would happen if some of us Brits marched through the streets in any of the Muslim countries slagging their country off!!  I don't think they'd all sit back and let us carry on, in fact I'm pretty sure they'd do something far far serious to end it.


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## MagicMelon (30 May 2013)

Pinkvboots said:



			That first video is a disgrace they should not be allowed to stay in this country, how dare they say we should convert to muslim just because they are here and think so, unfortunately us English are now becoming a minority in this country because there are so many immigrants here, if the government had done something about this sooner that soldier may still be alive.
		
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Us BRITISH, its not just England that has immigrants - Scotland has plenty too!


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## DressageCob (30 May 2013)

1stclassalan said:



			Ah the irony of that statement! The fact that a FOREIGN influence has been adopted and assimulated within our society is my very point!
		
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It's not ironic  I wasn't disagreeing with you. I was just pointing out that your statement of black men dressing in that way was singling out a particular group, when that fashion has been adopted by multiple ethnic groups, not just the one you refer to.


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## 1life (30 May 2013)

1stclassalan said:



			It was actually Queen Victoria herself who put her foot in it by saying that all Indians were as British as everybody else in her Empire which created the legal president and the Right of Domicile in Great Britain for any that wished to come - back then, no one thought they would.......
		
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Very interesting information and just shows how one thing leads on to another, all be it over a long time period.


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## 1life (30 May 2013)

Alec Swan said:



			1life,

a good post.  Perhaps those who march or lecture would care to consider that tolerance is generally given by way of return.

Racism is just that,  regardless of the colour or race that it's aimed at.

Alec.
		
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Absolutely. With so many different cultures, opinions, religions, morals etc in a relatively small country, harmony is a difficult balance to achieve. But as we are all so different (as this forum alone shows) tolerance can be difficult...and in some instances isn't deserved .


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## fburton (31 May 2013)

MagicMelon said:



			Us BRITISH, its not just England that has immigrants - Scotland has plenty too!
		
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And I'm one of them (a bl**dy Sassenach) - though I think I'm pretty well integrated now.


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## Alec Swan (31 May 2013)

What I don't quite understand,  and perhaps someone can explain to me,  is that whilst action,  quite correctly,  will be taken against those who promote radical and racist views and they happen to be white,  those who do the same thing,  but are black,  seem to live under some sort of umbrella.  Are there grounds for permitting or promoting one but not the other,  I wonder?

Alec.


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## fburton (31 May 2013)

Alec Swan said:



			What I don't quite understand,  and perhaps someone can explain to me,  is that whilst action,  quite correctly,  will be taken against those who promote radical and racist views and they happen to be white,  those who do the same thing,  but are black,  seem to live under some sort of umbrella.  Are there grounds for permitting or promoting one but not the other,  I wonder?
		
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I don't fully understand it, Alec, but think it may have something to do with 'racial sensitivity' which I think is laudable and decent but, like 'political correctness', can be taken too far. I believe we should all be treated equally under the law regardless of the colour of our skin.


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## Noodles_3 (31 May 2013)

I can't comment on the first video as it just makes my blood boil too much. That is all.   

One question I ask myself is WHY? Ughhhh!!


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## 1life (31 May 2013)

fburton said:



			I don't fully understand it, Alec, but think it may have something to do with 'racial sensitivity' which I think is laudable and decent but, like 'political correctness', can be taken too far. I believe we should all be treated equally under the law regardless of the colour of our skin.
		
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Agree - Political correctness is intended to avoid prejudice but this usually seems to apply to minority groups such as disabilities, cultures etc. Not a bad thing BUT it should be applied to prejudice OF ANY KIND. It should be applied across the board.


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## Marydoll (31 May 2013)

I cant get my head around the fact that during the riots in London, people attempting to incite riots and planning to participate, bragging and encouraging others to do the same on social networking sites were charged and prosecuted, some were jailed for years.
Why does this not happen to the extremists ? They spout their hate on our streets encouraging others to disregard the laws of the land we all have to live by, preaching hate against the people and police in this country, but they are allowed to march down the streets of the country doing so? The world has indeed gone mad, the fact the government seem very reluctant to do anything about this is what fuels the fears of the public and leads to an upsurge in  groups like the EDL and BNP


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## 1life (31 May 2013)

Marydoll said:



			I cant get my head around the fact that during the riots in London, people attempting to incite riots and planning to participate, bragging and encouraging others to do the same on social networking sites were charged and prosecuted, some were jailed for years.
Why does this not happen to the extremists ? They spout their hate on our streets encouraging others to disregard the laws of the land we all have to live by, preaching hate against the people and police in this country, but they are allowed to march down the streets of the country doing so? The world has indeed gone mad, the fact the government seem very reluctant to do anything about this is what fuels the fears of the public and leads to an upsurge in  groups like the EDL and BNP
		
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Good point, well made!


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## 1stclassalan (2 June 2013)

Noodles_3 said:



			I can't comment on the first video as it just makes my blood boil too much.
		
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That's what everyone involved wants!

The moslims were protesting because of alleged differential police treatment and general racism issues - the white girl was having a go at them for mainly being different to her and challenging them acting in this way in "her" town despite her not living there for some time.

So the whole theme here is - stirring up trouble rather than settling any.

They all have a point.


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## Armas (2 June 2013)

1stclassalan said:



			That's what everyone involved wants!

The moslims were protesting because of alleged differential police treatment and general racism issues - the white girl was having a go at them for mainly being different to her and challenging them acting in this way in "her" town despite her not living there for some time.

So the whole theme here is - stirring up trouble rather than settling any.

They all have a point.
		
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Were you watching the same video ?


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## shannonandtay (2 June 2013)

1stclassalan said:



			That's what everyone involved wants!

The moslims were protesting because of alleged differential police treatment and general racism issues - the white girl was having a go at them for mainly being different to her and challenging them acting in this way in "her" town despite her not living there for some time.

So the whole theme here is - stirring up trouble rather than settling any.

They all have a point.
		
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With comments like the above we can see why we are in the situation we are in now.  One rule for people in the video who can shout their racism and hatred and one rule for others who mustn't dare say a word against them.  I think you will find it was the woman in the burka who was having a go at the girl in the video for being different to them.


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## ILuvCowparsely (2 June 2013)

1stclassalan said:



			That's what everyone involved wants!

The moslims were protesting because of alleged differential police treatment and general racism issues - the white girl was having a go at them for mainly being different to her and challenging them acting in this way in "her" town despite her not living there for some time.

So the whole theme here is - stirring up trouble rather than settling any.

They all have a point.
		
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"Muslims"    

 The girl was not having a go, she was speaking quietly and informatively. It was the Burka woman saying she is naked   a should dress like them. 

I wish we could turn back the clock to the 70's when this problem  was not to this degree.

 I say this is Great Britain.  If you don't like OUR rules our way of life and start chanting rubbish like what was in the video.  Go back to the place you originated from.

 Labour have a lot to answer for letting so many  imigrants in.


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## Alec Swan (2 June 2013)

Armas said:



			Were you watching the same video ?
		
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shannonandtay said:



			With comments like the above we can see why we are in the situation we are in now.  One rule for people in the video who can shout their racism and hatred and one rule for others who mustn't dare say a word against them.  I think you will find it was the woman in the burka who was having a go at the girl in the video for being different to them.
		
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1stclassalan said:



			.......

They all have a point.
		
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Much as the behaviour in the video concerned,  irritates me and from both sides,  1stclass is right,  when he says that everyone has a point!  He has,  you have and I have.  

Whilst not wishing to plaster over the cracks,  there seems to be a set of rules and laws to protect us all from racism,  but for some reason,  those laws are only applied in a skewed and biased fashion,  and the average Briton (who ever they may be!),  if asked who they thought the laws regarding racism were designed to protect,  would answer that they were there for the benefit of all non-white,  or white but non-native Britons.  

Racism is wrong from which ever direction it arrives,  and regardless of any perceived barrier,  racism is unacceptable.  Fine sentiments,  you may argue,  and then correctly claim that those laws which protect the non-white native Briton,  are designed to protect anyone who's aggrieved.  Could the racist card be played by the wannabe protester,  who appears to hate everything which we stand for,  but who we bar from making their protests?

We need to find and use a word other than "Racist".  We need a word which will have a more catholic meaning than its current simple and narrow definition,  I think!

Alec.


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## Molly'sMama (3 June 2013)

As a young person, living close to the area shown in the video, it does scare me how easily people/adulta are able to turn against an entire /sector/ of a community.
You just watched a video.

Thats not really a unbiased, fully informed background for you to make a judgment.

I don't know.


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## 1stclassalan (3 June 2013)

Alec Swan said:



			Much as the behaviour in the video concerned,  irritates me and from both sides,  1stclass is right,  when he says that everyone has a point!  He has,  you have and I have.
		
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Of course - Alec the voice of reason as usual!

The march was obviously organised by those with a political bias - obvious from all the placards being professionally produced and cheerleaders egging everyone on. The massed ranks of willing hijab wearers was a master stroke!

The whole idea of them protesting about differential police treatment is very believeable - I myself have often wished certain police into hell - not that I think it's actually necessary as they are going there anyway hahahah. Most policemen like throwing their weight about and abusing their authority - George Dixon is long dead.... more is the pity.

I do not think it was a good idea for that white girl to "have a go" at the marchers in the manner she did unless her intention was to start a riot - I actually thought that she obtained far more reasoned replies from the Moslems - especially when if you bear in mind, all she uttered - were rants about how disgusted she was.

The only thing I don't like about this march - is the probable fact that it was arranged to provoke a violent backlash - by its Moslem organisers ( as they appear to be extremists ) if they could generate some good footage of "peaceful" demonstrators being attacked and told to "go home" - it would be beamed around the world and used to fuel more division and strife. Fortutitously, the people of Luton ( well all except one apparantly ) stayed away in droves and ignored it. 

All the people protesting on here should consider what they are prepared to do about their perceived problem with folk different to them - in the last resort - it's rise up in arms - is that really what they want? All the time there is brick wall confrontation the differences will be polarised - let it settle and both sides will moderate - the Crusaders brought back many a liking for Arabic ideas and I'd think the majority of Moslem girls ( in particular ) will assert themselves given another 50 years exposure to MTV.


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## lachlanandmarcus (3 June 2013)

I think an important thing would be that we stop funding faith based schools (state or independent) who teach in a way (boys and girls segregated) or with a message (separation, intolerance, violence) that directly conflicts with the ethos of the inclusive democratic liberal traditions of the country. 

At the moment we are funding it, and I think it needs to stop.

The best response to a terrorist or inciter is to say thankyou for your message and we will educate your children to love instead if hate and we will maintain our freedoms because that is the thing you want to destroy and we will love our moderate Muslim citizens because they are the bravest and best of all because they resist the pressure to be radicalised and that will annoy you more than anything because you want to divide us. And we won't let that happen any more.


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## PolarSkye (3 June 2013)

Alec Swan said:



			Much as the behaviour in the video concerned,  irritates me and from both sides,  1stclass is right,  when he says that everyone has a point!  He has,  you have and I have.  

Whilst not wishing to plaster over the cracks,  there seems to be a set of rules and laws to protect us all from racism,  but for some reason,  those laws are only applied in a skewed and biased fashion,  and the average Briton (who ever they may be!),  if asked who they thought the laws regarding racism were designed to protect,  would answer that they were there for the benefit of all non-white,  or white but non-native Britons.  

Racism is wrong from which ever direction it arrives,  and regardless of any perceived barrier,  racism is unacceptable.  Fine sentiments,  you may argue,  and then correctly claim that those laws which protect the non-white native Briton,  are designed to protect anyone who's aggrieved.  Could the racist card be played by the wannabe protester,  who appears to hate everything which we stand for,  but who we bar from making their protests?

We need to find and use a word other than "Racist".  We need a word which will have a more catholic meaning than its current simple and narrow definition,  I think!

Alec.
		
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While I often agree with Alec, I find myself in the (until now) unique position of agreeing with Allen too (check me out!).  And, oh by the way, it's not just about finding a new word, it's about all of us finding an all-round perspective.  Yes, murder is murder . . . and, yes, racism is racism . . . and, yes, hate crimes are wrong . . . but . . . in a truly free society tolerance MUST apply across a very broad spectrum or we risk tampering with very real freedoms.  

I am 100% with those who say that people who preach hate and promote violence against others for any reason (race, religion, gender, sexual orientation, etc.) are wrong . . . and I am also 100% with those who say that people who ACT on those beliefs to hurt, maim, frighten, kill purely on the grounds I have listed above are wrong . . . but I cannot go as far as to say that they should be treated in a similar fashion (i.e., those promoters of hate should themselves be lynched or harmed in any way).  You either believe in a just and tolerant society, or you don't.  It cannot be applied one way . . . or it isn't tolerant and just.

Racism and intolerance cut both ways . . . and failure to forget that, and failure to take that into account in dealing with those who are racist and/or intolerant negates the initial principle.

Just read that back and hope it makes sense .

P


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## fburton (3 June 2013)

Perfect sense, PolarSkye.


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## PolarSkye (3 June 2013)

fburton said:



			Perfect sense, PolarSkye.
		
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Oh phew .

P


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## Luci07 (3 June 2013)

PolarSkye said:



			Racism and intolerance cut both ways . . . and failure to forget that, and failure to take that into account in dealing with those who are racist and/or intolerant negates the initial principle.

Just read that back and hope it makes sense .

P
		
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It does. It is a point I try to make frequently in that we have a society and rules and cannot afford to regress to lower behaviour against those who choose to break our rules. 

I have enjoyed reading this topic. There is great deal of food for thought but we should also bear in mind, that there is vast and bloody history of persecution and differences. Sometimes the differences were named as religious, sometimes not but this is nothing new. The debate should be firmly aimed at questioning as to whether this threat is real and different to what has gone on before. We murdered jews in the 11th century (York), we created the concentration camps for the Boer war, back in the times of early medieval england, English was only spoken by the  lower classes. We had Fascists openly gaining power before the 2nd world war..just trying to show that our history has always been turbulent. Do we think this is any different?


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## EAST KENT (3 June 2013)

YorksG said:



			While we are looking at the history of this, let's not forget how the British Empire operated. Any one know that India was governed by a private company, organised by the British Government? When the Victorians went to colonise places, they showed scant regard for the social and religeous norms of those places. Perhaps this is a case of you reap what you sow?
		
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Exactly,we lived separately and just carried on being English as far as we possibly could,now we criticise others for doing exactly the same!


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## HashRouge (3 June 2013)

Let's not forget that extremism can be found everywhere - it isn't exclusive to Islam. The EDL, for instance, is just as bad.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1PyWJiSQoOQ


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## DabDab (4 June 2013)

Our ancestors in this country fought really hard for women's rights, freedom of speech, democracy.... and it is really hard to watch anyone from any walk of life being so disrespectful of that. The EDL can be as bad as these nutters in this respect.


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## 1stclassalan (4 June 2013)

Luci07 said:



			It does. It is a point I try to make frequently in that we have a society and rules and cannot afford to regress to lower behaviour against those who choose to break our rules. 

I have enjoyed reading this topic. There is great deal of food for thought but we should also bear in mind, that there is vast and bloody history of persecution and differences. Sometimes the differences were named as religious, sometimes not but this is nothing new. The debate should be firmly aimed at questioning as to whether this threat is real and different to what has gone on before. We murdered jews in the 11th century (York), we created the concentration camps for the Boer war, back in the times of early medieval england, English was only spoken by the  lower classes. We had Fascists openly gaining power before the 2nd world war..just trying to show that our history has always been turbulent. Do we think this is any different?
		
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Very true and PolarSky has some good points too. I think the thing I'm mainly advocating is - I don't want an extremist to turn me into an extremist! Even if that's what they seem to want - in fact that will make me even more dead against it.

Hopefully, the new communications - the Net and social media will help spread the word that people are mostly all the same rather than exaggerating their differences - unfortunately that message is mixed in with an explosion of pornography and extremist rantings of all descriptions. We live in interesting times.


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## Vindaloo (4 June 2013)

I don't know if this really did come from the Australian Prime minister but if it did, I applaud her. 

Quote: IMMIGRANTS, NOT AUSTRALIANS, MUST ADAPT Take It Or Leave It. I am tired of this nation worrying about whether we are offending some individual or their culture. Since the terrorist attacks on Bali , we have experienced a surge in patriotism by the majority of Australians.

This culture has been developed over two centuries of struggles, trials and victories by millions of men and women who have sought freedom.

We speak mainly ENGLISH, not Spanish, Lebanese, Arabic, Chinese, Japanese, Russian, or any other language. Therefore, if you wish to become part of our society, learn the language!

Most Australians believe in God. This is not some Christian, right wing, political push, but a fact, because Christian men and women, on Christian principles, founded this nation, and this is clearly documented. It is certainly appropriate to display it on the walls of our schools. If God offends you, then I suggest you consider another part of the world as your new home, because God is part of our culture.

We will accept your beliefs, and will not question why. All we ask is that you accept ours, and live in harmony and peaceful enjoyment with us.

This is OUR COUNTRY, OUR LAND, and OUR LIFESTYLE, and we will allow you every opportunity to enjoy all this. But once you are done complaining, whining, and griping about Our Flag, Our Pledge, Our Christian beliefs, or Our Way of Life, I highly encourage you take advantage of one other great Australian freedom, THE RIGHT TO LEAVE.

If you arent happy here then LEAVE. We didnt force you to come here. You asked to be here. So accept the country YOU accepted.

Pity our own PM doesn't appear to be able to do the same.

V.


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## fburton (4 June 2013)

Well, it is one point of view.

The RANDOM capitalization of WORDS in the QUOTE rang alarm bells with me (it is a thought to be sign that someone is becoming mentally unhinged). So I thought I would track it down, and found this:

http://www.snopes.com/politics/soapbox/likeitorleaveit.asp

Apparently the quote was barstewardized from something Barry Loudermilk, Republican member of the Georgia State Senate, had published in his local Georgia rag, adapted to make it look like it was about Australia and falsely attributed to PMs Julia Gillard (also to Kevin Rudd and John Howard). Loudermilk is also anti-abortion and against gun control, as you'd expect. 

See also:
http://www.hoax-slayer.com/howard-muslim-speech.shtml

Basically it is a fiction.


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## LittleMonster (4 June 2013)

I havent read the whole thread because the whole thing gets me to the bone... 
Extremists need to be dealt with. Like people have said its not the religion its the people that take it the few steps to far! And did anyone hear the bloke that attacked the solider in Woolwhich had actually been in court for something before in a different country?
OR that they were both known to police but nothing was done to persue and sort them out (now i personally think there is more to their mental state then is mentioned).

the first video made my blood boil! Do they realise the BRITISH police protect them in BRITIAN!?! And the bloke at the end basically saying they don't follow rules of people in a different religon? I would like to ask him, if he feels like that why doesn't he go and live in a ''islamic land'' run by a muslim?
Maybe he will be happier? 

Don't like it? Shut up and get on with it or leave... Simple?!


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## Aarrghimpossiblepony (5 June 2013)

1stclassalan said:



			Very true and PolarSky has some good points too. I think the thing I'm mainly advocating is - *I don't want an extremist to turn me into an extremist! Even if that's what they seem to want - in fact that will make me even more dead against it*.

Hopefully, the new communications - the Net and social media will help spread the word that people are mostly all the same rather than exaggerating their differences - unfortunately that message is mixed in with an explosion of pornography and extremist rantings of all descriptions. We live in interesting times.
		
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BIB
I think these sentences show how far things have gone wrong in this country.

It's not extremist to be angry that millions of people have emigrated to the UK and seek to turn the country into what they came from.
The same can be said about every progressive European country.

Whilst at the same time ensuring that no changes are allowed back in the "home country".

It maybe alarmist, but slowly and surely Europeans are losing their homelands.
Where do they go to feel at home in the same way an immigrant here can return to Pakistan, Somalia, Iraq, ect.?

Islam won't change because it can't. The resistance to any form of reformation is inbuilt. In fact over the last twenty years there has been a massive revival of fundamentalism and a rejection of a more progressive outlook. The so called "Arab spring" has resulted in hardline religious control taking over in every country.
Look at what is currently happening in Turkey.

And it's feeding into this country and Europe. It's not about groups of people moving here and over a period of time assimilating/integrating because they feel cut off from the "old country", open to the country they now reside in. With modern travel, that is no longer going to happen.
In fact, the opposite is true.
People return to the "old country" to find marriage partners because those around them from their own communities are too "westernised".

So what hope is there?


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## fburton (5 June 2013)

Aarrghimpossiblepony said:



			It's not extremist to be angry that millions of people have emigrated to the UK and seek to turn the country into what they came from.
		
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How many million Muslims have immigrated into the UK, and how many of those seek to turn the country into what they came from?

If the figures are not as you suppose, your anger may be misplaced.


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## Caol Ila (5 June 2013)

Too many bloody immigrants....!  Oh, wait...


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## YorksG (5 June 2013)

In the 1910's my grandfather and his family came to England from Eire (then simply Ireland) His mother insisted that the family attend the Methodist chapel, as she did not want anyone to think they may be catholic, my Gradfather contiued this with his own children. In the 1960's there were signs up in boarding houses saying No Irish, No Blacks No dogs. The only thing that changes is the place the people we don't want, come from.


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## hackneylass2 (6 June 2013)

Vindaloo, I think that what you quoted should be every country's stance.

As for the 'no Irish, no blacks, no dogs' signs in the 60s,  which was disgusting, we still have the same sort of discrimination...what about all the 'No DSS' statements on property rental sites?  No difference imo.


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## 1stclassalan (12 June 2013)

Although I appreciate there is a vast difference in the speed of change between these days and history - If you threw out all the immigrants from Great Britain - the place would be empty!!

I doubt if anyone actually lived here during the last Ice Age as most folk alive in the area were nomadic and followed the herds of wild animals. When the ice melted the sea rose 150 metres - now that is what I call Global Warming!!! ( BTW humans didn't do it - so somethin else did. )

From then on, folk who wanted to come here had to have considerable tenacity, the skill to build a boat - or be running away from someone who couldn't! This island has been the final frontier right up until people learned to build even bigger boats - but it also had the effect of concentrating the best brains and the get-up-and-goers.

If a guy has walked all the way here from .... say, Afghanistan - even he arrives with nothing - I'm inclined to look on him rather more kindly than some habitual DHSS claimant who's sat on their backside for years - even if he was born here.


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## hackneylass2 (12 June 2013)

Being a male I doubt you pay much attention to the  many Muslim women who are being oppressed and are living in fear...here in the UK. Those for whom Sharia  'courts'  completely disregard UK law and submit them to severe and unfair standards of both behaviour and standing.

Also, not all DHSS claimants are lazy workshy asses;  ...redundancy in this economic climate can strike anyone anytime, and if you cant pay your mortgage., don't expect the banks to sympathise much! Financial discrimination is just as bad as racial discrimination.

As has been said before here, 'If in Rome...'  as a woman, I would not expect to have a life at all if I lived in Saudi, therefore I would not choose to live there. If I did, I would expect to conform and obey the laws of the country.


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## Aarrghimpossiblepony (13 June 2013)

1stclassalan said:



			Although I appreciate there is a vast difference in the speed of change between these days and history - If you threw out all the immigrants from Great Britain - the place would be empty!!

I doubt if anyone actually lived here during the last Ice Age as most folk alive in the area were nomadic and followed the herds of wild animals. When the ice melted the sea rose 150 metres - now that is what I call Global Warming!!! ( BTW humans didn't do it - so somethin else did. )

From then on, folk who wanted to come here had to have considerable tenacity, the skill to build a boat - or be running away from someone who couldn't! This island has been the final frontier right up until people learned to build even bigger boats - but it also had the effect of concentrating the best brains and the get-up-and-goers.

If a guy has walked all the way here from .... say, Afghanistan - even he arrives with nothing - I'm inclined to look on him rather more kindly than some habitual DHSS claimant who's sat on their backside for years - even if he was born here.
		
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The British Isles have been continuously inhabited for the last approx, 14,500 years. Settlers first came towards the end of the last Ice Age when there was still a land bridge connecting to mainland Europe.

Recent DNA studies have shown that 80% of most Britons' DNA comes from these first settlers.

So why would it be empty?

Subsequent historical waves of immigration have been relatively minor in affecting the population.

When the land bridge disappeared because of rising sea levels, it preserved an isolated population. As you will probably find in many islands where geographical conditions changed after people had first settled. And I daresay there are some where the isolated populations didn't survive.


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## Alec Swan (15 June 2013)

hackneylass2 said:



			Being a male I doubt you pay much attention to the  many Muslim women who are being oppressed and are living in fear...here in the UK........
		
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Whether that remark was aimed at the poster before you,  or men in general,  I suspect that you may be wrong.  I don't know of any men,  on this forum or beyond,  who don't feel for the oppressed,  whoever they are.

There can be no place for those aspects of Sharia Law,  which are at odds with our own Laws,  none what so ever.  We can only have one legal system prevail in the UK.  If Sharia Law works for those who live in Afghanistan, that's fine by me.  When in Rome.......

Alec.


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## Alyth (15 June 2013)

I do wish there were a like button!!  Well said (again!) Alec!!


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## 1stclassalan (16 June 2013)

Aarrghimpossiblepony said:



			The British Isles have been continuously inhabited for the last approx, 14,500 years. Settlers first came towards the end of the last Ice Age when there was still a land bridge connecting to mainland Europe.
		
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Yes, and no! If you look at what I've said previously, I reckon that those folk who travelled here were nomadic during the Ice Ages ( and before ) - farming hadn't been invented so there was nothing to keep anybody rooted to one spot - they were hunter gatherers.




			Recent DNA studies have shown that 80% of most Britons' DNA comes from these first settlers.
		
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As there is no surviving Ice Age population I find that difficult to believe. 




			Subsequent historical waves of immigration have been relatively minor in affecting the population.
		
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What, apart from the Anglo-Saxons, Danes and then the Normans changing everything you mean?




			When the land bridge disappeared because of rising sea levels, it preserved an isolated population.
		
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This famous land bridge had a flippig great river through the middle of it even when sea levels were at their lowest - the people had boats. 

When the sea level rose - it did it fairly slowly so small boats were quite good enough for early peoples to keep the nomadic lifestyle - until the climate improved enough for farming.


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## 1stclassalan (16 June 2013)

hackneylass2 said:



			Being a male I doubt you pay much attention to the  many Muslim women who are being oppressed and are living in fear...here in the UK. Those for whom Sharia  'courts'  completely disregard UK law and submit them to severe and unfair standards of both behaviour and standing.
		
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Well that's a bit of a far reaching blandishment for someone who posts upon fairness and equality! There are many non-Muslim women living in fear in the U.K. - I feel for all of them.

However; to the case in point - there are several hundred hijab wearing women featured in the video professing to like it. I rather feel that you have your opinions formed by the Daily Mail - particularly on Sharia Law. It is not the law that's at fault in reported extreme cases but the interpretation by evil people - and you can get them in all walks of life. 




			Also, not all DHSS claimants are lazy workshy asses;  ...... Financial discrimination is just as bad as racial discrimination.
		
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Feel better now? Go back and read what I wrote again please - I do not tar all DHSS claimants with the same brush ( unlike you and your comment about men) - I make the case of rhetorical claimant who has not worked in years - I suppose, I should have added "willfully" for nitpickers but I did rather think it was obvious what I meant and I have been critisized on here for patronising.




			As has been said before here, 'If in Rome...'  as a woman, I would not expect to have a life at all if I lived in Saudi, therefore I would not choose to live there. If I did, I would expect to conform and obey the laws of the country.
		
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Commendable, I'm sure but it's not a like for like scenario. The Muslims in the video are complaining because they feel they are being treated differently - in our supposed free country - ( I rather think that they are right )  there is no reciprocal to compare in Saudi. Immigrants are completely absorbed or not allowed in and different foreigners are kept completely isolated in compounds.


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## Aarrghimpossiblepony (16 June 2013)

1stclassalan said:



			Yes, and no! If you look at what I've said previously, I reckon that those folk who travelled here were nomadic during the Ice Ages ( and before ) - farming hadn't been invented so there was nothing to keep anybody rooted to one spot - they were hunter gatherers.

As there is no surviving Ice Age population I find that difficult to believe. 

What, apart from the Anglo-Saxons, Danes and then the Normans changing everything you mean?

This famous land bridge had a flippig great river through the middle of it even when sea levels were at their lowest - the people had boats. 

When the sea level rose - it did it fairly slowly so small boats were quite good enough for early peoples to keep the nomadic lifestyle - until the climate improved enough for farming.
		
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Hunter gatherers roam no further than they need to collect enough food. Britain has never had a continental climate that would have caused extremely large herds to travel hundreds of miles to obtain grazing/water.

There's plenty of reasons to stay rooted in an area, not least because the dangers have already been identified and the local food/shelter/tool supplies are known.

http://www.york.ac.uk/50/impact/star-carr-house/

There are dated remains dug up that can provide DNA using the latest techniques.

Whether a ruling, conquering elite changed everything, that has no bearing on the numbers. All the recent studies have been busily downgrading the amount of immigration (people) connected to any of the invasions you mention.

Climate has no bearing on the spread of farming, it's a technological advance that spread from it's source in the ME.


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## Pale Rider (22 June 2013)

Modern immigration to the UK is mostly for economic reasons, and why not. Everyone wants a better lifestyle.

When you do decide to move to another country, it is pure arrogance to think that you can bring your laws, culture and religion with you and try to impose it on the host country (unless you were a pioneer, lol).

Nowerdays I think the Australian attitude is about right, 'If you don't like it here, bog off.'


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