# Stallion parade at Burghley Horse Trials Friday 5th September 14



## BlueFire710 (7 September 2014)

I didn't make it to Burghley so does anyone who did go have any feedback on any of the stallions? 
It would be great to hear anyone's thoughts from seeing them in the flesh.

Thanks


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## Alec Swan (7 September 2014)

Whilst there are a great many stallions that we'd like to 'breed',  are they really the horses that we want to breed 'from'?

Alec.


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## Partoow (9 September 2014)

That's an interesting comment Alex swan, would you care to elaborate?
From the list there were a couple of stallions that are really producing some super young stock so,yes they are good stallions to breed from.
In general I do believe that with stallions you do need to ask is it a product or a producer?,and I think this maybe what you are saying?


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## Audacity (9 September 2014)

Bluefire710 - there are photos of the stallion parade on Julia Sherwood Photography website if that's any help. 

We didn't watch it all but did have the thrill of watching the 4 year old young event horse class where 2nd place went to a super horse ridden by a friend of ours - it went Best British Bred & Best horse sired by SHB graded stallion - Forinth - who was in the stallion parade.


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## Alec Swan (9 September 2014)

Partoow said:



			&#8230;&#8230;..
In general I do believe that with stallions you do need to ask is it a product or a producer?,and I think this maybe what you are saying?
		
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That's exactly what I'm saying.  There are a great many stallions who are,  as you say,  the finished product but which may very well not be the producers which we would hope for.  Being a 'Product'  doesn't necessarily follow that the animal will be a 'Producer'.  I can think of severely very nice horses,  who've failed to replicate themselves,  and whilst accepting that no matter the stallion,  when the wrong mare is in front of him,  the result will almost certainly be failure,  there are those horses who've had some first class mares go to them,  and the results are a disappointment,  and the reason being that the Stallion was himself,  the end product.

Logically of course,  there are those stallions which today may well not be the Advanced Event horses that one might wish for,  but my word,  they have and do produce the goods.

Alec.


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## BlueFire710 (9 September 2014)

Audacity said:



			Bluefire710 - there are photos of the stallion parade on Julia Sherwood Photography website if that's any help. 

We didn't watch it all but did have the thrill of watching the 4 year old young event horse class where 2nd place went to a super horse ridden by a friend of ours - it went Best British Bred & Best horse sired by SHB graded stallion - Forinth - who was in the stallion parade.
		
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Thank you very much - that's so helpful! I will take a look at the photos. Good to know about Forinth too. Thank you!


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## BlueFire710 (9 September 2014)

Alec Swan said:



			That's exactly what I'm saying.  There are a great many stallions who are,  as you say,  the finished product but which may very well not be the producers which we would hope for.  Being a 'Product'  doesn't necessarily follow that the animal will be a 'Producer'.  I can think of severely very nice horses,  who've failed to replicate themselves,  and whilst accepting that no matter the stallion,  when the wrong mare is in front of him,  the result will almost certainly be failure,  there are those horses who've had some first class mares go to them,  and the results are a disappointment,  and the reason being that the Stallion was himself,  the end product.

Logically of course,  there are those stallions which today may well not be the Advanced Event horses that one might wish for,  but my word,  they have and do produce the goods.

Alec.
		
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Thanks for the comments Alec. As someone new to the event horse breeding scene it is very helpful to learn things like this. If you ever get a moment pm ing a handful of examples of both types (producers and end products) would be so helpful and so much appreciated! I know first hand how busy people involved with horses are though so I'll understand if I don't hear!


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## popsdosh (9 September 2014)

I am a firm believer that any stallion I use for the first time must have a solid eventing pedigree behind it.
Its own performance matters less to me. I am afraid that there are a few competing stallions that I would not use as they will very rarely ever pass on their ability as they are genetic freaks for want of a better word.


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## sywell (10 September 2014)

As a breeder you are producing a horse to compete in six years time so what other traditional event breeders  have done may not be the horse that is needed. You need to consider what is the type of horse that will be ahead of the trend in course design in six years time. Eventing in the UK has struggled since the Athens Olympics with the type of horse since the roads and tracks went. The narrow trappy fences now being used at WEG for us old school are dreadful. The comment it is what a stallion produces is the key factor, not necessarily what the stallion has done itself. As an example look at the dressage stallion Dimaggio and the number of top horses he sired or is grandsire of. Farouche,Delphi,Dimaggik and Dornroeschen to name but a few. One of our failings is we have no data anyone who has seen the wealth of data that the German database at VIT produces and now the switch to linear evaluation it does not surprise me that one of our top event stallions Chilli Morning is Westphalian.


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## BlueFire710 (15 September 2014)

popsdosh and sywell thank you, very helpful advice - it is a complex field and advice like that is great to help me on the right road. I have been studying breeding for a while although this is my first year trying it myself. 
At Blenheim this weekend it was so interesting to see that the tb influence is reducing all the time, many of the younger horses with very little at all/none - the times are certainly changing.


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## ihatework (15 September 2014)

BlueFire710 said:



			popsdosh and sywell thank you, very helpful advice - it is a complex field and advice like that is great to help me on the right road. I have been studying breeding for a while although this is my first year trying it myself. 
At Blenheim this weekend it was so interesting to see that the tb influence is reducing all the time, many of the younger horses with very little at all/none - the times are certainly changing.
		
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I'd agree with you that TB influence is reducing but be careful not to completely dismiss it. Many of the continental stallions have heavy TB/SF/Trak influence.

There are now many examples of heavier set event horses, but I think they are more a case of getting to the higher levels because they have ended up in the right hands / luck rather than a pro setting out to buy them as a 4yo with potential for 4*. The stamp of horse and TB influence is still very much in demand for top flight eventing. Middle levels, less so.


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## no_no_nanette (15 September 2014)

There was still a lot of TB blood in the pedigrees of the top ten horses in the 8/9 year old CIC 3* - and much more in the CCI3*.  The winner of the CIC3*, Faerie Dianimo, has NTR and TB all the way through on the bottom line; second, Cillnabradden Evo, has ISH on the damline, so there will be TB in there as well as ID; the third horse was pure TB (Millkom x Indian Ridge); Clifton Signature (4th), is out of a NZ TB mare; 5th was Favorit Z whose sire is Favoritas XX; and 6th placed Sirocco du Gers' dam is Anglo-Arab.  Only when you get to 7th placed and beyond does the TB start to slip some generations .... but it's still very much there!  In spite of the more technical courses and short format most event riders still say that they prefer to have at least 75% TB in any horse that they are riding at Advanced.  So the search for the next great TB sport horse sires still goes on


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## Rollin (15 September 2014)

no_no_nanette said:



			There was still a lot of TB blood in the pedigrees of the top ten horses in the 8/9 year old CIC 3* - and much more in the CCI3*.  The winner of the CIC3*, Faerie Dianimo, has NTR and TB all the way through on the bottom line; second, Cillnabradden Evo, has ISH on the damline, so there will be TB in there as well as ID; the third horse was pure TB (Millkom x Indian Ridge); Clifton Signature (4th), is out of a NZ TB mare; 5th was Favorit Z whose sire is Favoritas XX; and 6th placed Sirocco du Gers' dam is Anglo-Arab.  Only when you get to 7th placed and beyond does the TB start to slip some generations .... but it's still very much there!  In spite of the more technical courses and short format most event riders still say that they prefer to have at least 75% TB in any horse that they are riding at Advanced.  So the search for the next great TB sport horse sires still goes on 

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I have not yet produced an eventer, so in exalted company here.  However, I will say again for hunter type mares I think the Shagya is as good as if not better than the TB and sadly almost unknown in the UK.

Our endurance training throws up some interesting stats.  We do long and medium paced and short fast training.  To my amazement we found our boy has a top speed of 41kph.


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## popsdosh (15 September 2014)

Rollin said:



			I have not yet produced an eventer, so in exalted company here.  However, I will say again for hunter type mares I think the Shagya is as good as if not better than the TB and sadly almost unknown in the UK.

Our endurance training throws up some interesting stats.  We do long and medium paced and short fast training.  To my amazement we found our boy has a top speed of 41kph.
		
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With the greatest respect what do you base that theory on . Can you name me some shagya Arab Xs that are at top level eventing! TBs top speed 50-55 KPH.
Most producers of top class event horses will use top class TB mares as the basis not any old hunter.


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## Rollin (16 September 2014)

popsdosh said:



			With the greatest respect what do you base that theory on . Can you name me some shagya Arab Xs that are at top level eventing! TBs top speed 50-55 KPH.
Most producers of top class event horses will use top class TB mares as the basis not any old hunter.
		
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http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=253890

Ramiro is a Grandson of Ramzes, Anglo-Shagya Arab.  Ramzes has been called the sire of the Century. 

When we purchases this farm, the French vendors were terribly exicted when we said we planned to breed Shagya Arabs.  They bred Anglo Arabs and are show jumpers.  The wife said 'Aston Answer" and brought a book from her bookcase.

Here is Aston Answer

http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?z=...x=&color=&dog_breed=any&birthyear=&birthland= 


I think that eventers need to have both stamina and jumping ability.  Two of the first five finishers at this year's WEG were Shagya Arabs...and not many finished.

Of course you are correct, you won't find many ShG sires of eventers because there are not many Shagya's. My boy's sire who was EU Shagya Champion was an eventer in Germany.


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## BlueFire710 (16 September 2014)

I absolutely agree that the tb influence is still coming through and should remain so. It is nice to see that the power and scope of some of the jumping lines are finding their place too though - I thought Millie Dumas' Artistiek was a lovely boy at Blenheim - by Numero Uno. I have a mare in foal for the first time this year (cor de la bryere lines out of an FEI Irish mare) and although I have been sure to keep some tb coming in with the stallion I haven't felt the need to be limited to a full tb. 
I read a very interesting article recently (possibly liked to on here) in which Andrew Nicholson (I think) said that he felt that the high tb blood was not the essential element but rather adapting to the greater level of fitness work that the warmblood types need in comparison. I think his implication was that the success can be the same, management would just be different for the same end goal/result. I'm not suggesting no tb at all would work, just perhaps not 75-100% in every case.
Very interesting.


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## sywell (16 September 2014)

I once asked Matt Ryan about 20 odd years ago  what sort of breeding did he wanted in an event horse and he basically said he did not care he just wanted the best horse. I have only bred one event horse and he got 56 points in his first season and was selected by BE for the WBFSH 7 year old championship in France as a Hanoverian breeder I am biased.


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## volatis (30 September 2014)

I wrote an article for the e-venting website looking at the bloodlines of the WEG eventers that caught the eye for the right and wrong reasons.
Very interesting to see at tough 4 start level how the need for blood is still strong, but often tempered with some serious jumping blood. Of course, not everyone is breeding for 4 star level.

Did anyone who watched the stallion parade at Burghley have any comments on the horse's they saw there on the day?


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## Alec Swan (21 October 2014)

I'm still of the view that those who look outside of the Competing Stallions 'box' may well be correct.  The proper and old fashioned NH horses are I feel sure,  where the correct and necessary 'Blood' would (should?) come from.  The modern NH Stallions seem to be following Saddlers Wells,  and it remains my opinion that as NH seems to be influenced by the need for speed,  rather than known jumpers,  so the 'available' pool is becoming ever smaller.

Show jumpers produce show jumpers,  and Dressage horses produce their like,  but where are those TB Stallions which can 'truly' jump,  and are horses which are known to have the vital stamina levels?  Do the dedicated 'Show Jumping" stallions produce Event horses?  I'd have my doubts.  There are accepted formulas for producing single disciplined horses,  but there is no sure formula for the Event horse breeder,  I don't think.  I sometimes wonder what it is that the TB brings to the breeders table;  'Speed',  though that's not actually of the greatest significance,  but more so 'Courage' and 'Stamina'  tied to a certain 'Ability',  would be the major contributions,  I'd have thought.

Starting with the mare line and giving it consideration would be the more certain path than considering the stallion,  I feel sure.  

The problems with breeding Event horses,  or so it seems to me,  are that the results are so slow to come through.  Many stallions will be retired or dead by the time that their 12+ year old off spring really hit the news.  With flat bred TBs of course,  and with youngsters racing as 2 year olds,  the success or failure rate is much easier to gauge.  With Event horses we do have the Futurities,  but I still fail to see enough of those lauded youngsters coming up through the ranks,  and so wonder at their worth.  Where I do think that breeders will benefit from the shows which judge their youngsters is for those with the eyes to see,  is that they will have the chance to judge their own against others.  With youngsters,  and for me,  it would be about 'comparisons'.  I've more than once been to look at SallyF's youngsters,  and preferred them to mine!!

The research abilities of Volatis,  and others,  will be of significant use,  but again,  as with crime and detection,  so we are in a constant state of 'catch up'.  The wise and experienced will source the stock which will be the most likely to be the successful sires.  Again,  I doubt that they are to be found amongst the competing Sires.

This is such an all consuming subject,  for me anyway.  

Alec.


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## sywell (23 October 2014)

The sooner you can identify the top stallions that stamp their progeny the better and to be able to do this at the moment at three years old is a good guide and many studbooks have moved to linear profileing to improve these evaluations. I quote these comments from a judge at the German National championships.
Jumping style, front leg technique, back activity
and controllability follow. According to Hans Melzer,
a gigantic canter stride is not as important as
often assumed, &#8220;Groundcover yes, but a diligent,
efficient canter is more important.&#8221; When the rules
changed for eventing about ten years ago, the
warmblood influence added a predisposition for
jumping and dressage, Hans Melzer said. This is
one reason, why warmblood studbooks are now
able to successfully market their horses in the
event world. &#8220;We still look for a high percentage
of Thoroughbred blood, which becomes even more
important, when the horses are expected to perform
at the most difficult level,&#8221; the national coach
said.
Linear Profiling in the Warmblood Horse by Kathrin Stock can be found on the WBFSH website under 2013 General Assembly also is the presentation Genomic Selection in Horse Breeding by Thomas Mark which is the next stage on.
these will be useful guides to only bring on the horses which have the right potential but there will always be odd horses that do not fit the pattern but producers have to bet on percentages not the odd ball that breaks the rules.


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## angrovestud (23 October 2014)

In particular with regards to Sadlers wells the  sire Oscar is producing good eventing stock, Top Hat produced several top eventers and he has passed on good eventing lines, in the good old days you had the likes of Gunner B who passed on stamina and jump. shame so many went over to warmblood's at the expensive of stamina for just for the dressage phase


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