# HHO's "Bear" project pony...



## Michen (9 March 2020)

Nice clean thread for the forum's "chosen pony".

Such a fun little chap tonight, started off quite nervous but let him play in the school (or rather, he decided he was bored of following me around and decided to have a play himself), think he needed to let off a bit of steam actually as hasn't had a chance to properly loose leg stretch yet.

Still a little bit flinchy but he really really relaxed this evening, I think he's definitely realised I'm his person (see labrador like video of him following me around!). He won't eat any form of treat, apple, carrot, meadow herb thingy, polo... just takes a bite and spits them out but he absolutely loves a scratch and to put his chin on your shoulder and blow at you, he's super affectionate but can't last very long without then needing something in his mouth whether its your collar, your ear (eek!) or your hair (fair play it does look like hay).

Excuse the poor clip, wasn't bothered about pretty ness! He's got the remains of rain scald (and what I assume is scarring, will post a pic), so I don't want to hot cloth and then rug incase it encourages it a bit.. will leave him with a good groom every day for a bit until he's chilled enough to have a bath and stand under heated lamps. Any suggestions for how to treat the remaining bit of scald, must be fairly old as he's been stabled for 6 weeks before coming here...

So some photos that he was bought off to document it all here... (bear with me whilst I upload stuff guys!)






Arrival photos









Today’s photos and videos


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## showjumpingharry (9 March 2020)

Yay!!! And wait to follow his journey😊😊


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## Michen (9 March 2020)

and FINALLY a couple of videos











Hope that's enough to satisfy, for now... 

Oh and the rainscald. Any treatment suggestions welcome?


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## Midlifecrisis (9 March 2020)

Oooo I’m liking the look of that ponio very much!


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## Dustygirl (9 March 2020)

He’s lovely 😊


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## Upthecreek (9 March 2020)

Wow! He looks the perfect blend of heart meltingly sweet and cheeky..... and that trot 😍😍😍


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## ycbm (9 March 2020)

I'm not sure you understand quite how seriously good a little horse you have bought.

I don't know why they let him go for 3k.
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## Lindylouanne (9 March 2020)

He is gorgeous ❤️


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## Lexi_ (9 March 2020)

Oh I love him already 😍


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## Surbie (9 March 2020)

He's so beautiful. Love his cheeky look and the cuddliness.


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## Michen (9 March 2020)

ycbm said:



			I'm not sure you understand quite how seriously good a little horse you have bought.

I don't know why they let him go for 3k.
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I'd like to say it's because I making a living from negotiation but sadly not. I'm chuffed to bits you think that, I was worried I was a bit mad when we (not you though!) were all shocked over his feet/pasterns/hind end. Bloody KNEW there was something about him though I got this weird stomach twist when I found him!

I don't know either because ridden connies at the sales are going for 4,000 euros minimum. Maybe we will find out when we get on him loll!

Actually don't believe that for one moment. Am so impressed with the seller, he messaged me asking for an update earlier and he's been nothing but 100% helpful and genuine.


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## ycbm (9 March 2020)

I think if Boggle doesn't come right you are already sorted. And if he does, and can only manage one, then  you have a big head/heart decision ahead. 

Cracking little horse I wish I was small enough to feel right on. If he doesn't jump a metre twenty eventually  I'll eat my hat, and if you want to become a dressage diva, you've got the right one there as well.

How big is he M?
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## scotlass (9 March 2020)

He's lovely.  Wishing you every success, fun and happiness with him.

Also admiring the yard too!


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## neddy man (9 March 2020)

You've definitely got a good one there, looks like bears found a lifetime home home with you.


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## Rosemary28 (9 March 2020)

Oh what a sweetie!


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## J&S (9 March 2020)

He certainly is a little cracker!  Love the hind leg movement.   Wonder gel for the rain scald?


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## Michen (9 March 2020)

ycbm said:



			I think if Boggle doesn't come right you are already sorted. And if he does, and can only manage one, then  you have a big head/heart decision ahead.

Cracking little horse I wish I was small enough to feel right on. If he doesn't jump a metre twenty eventually  I'll eat my hat, and if you want to become a dressage diva, you've got the right one there as well.

How big is he M?
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If he ends up as good as I hope, I definitely won't sell but I'd certainly consider full loaning him out to someone I knew. I could technically have two on proper facilities livery (assuming life situation and job doesn't go tits up for some horrible reason!) and pay for riding to keep both fit enough or sharers, but I honestly think it would be a waste of money and I don't think I'd get enjoyment from having two however awesome they both are.

He may well end up even better than Boggle under saddle but Bog will always totally have my heart, we've been through a huge amount together and he needs careful managing really. I'd never dream of loaning him out.

He measured in at 156cm/15.3hh before he was shod


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## AdorableAlice (9 March 2020)

You must keep a photographic record of his progress, he is a nice shape now but give him time and he will be a stunner.


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## OldNag (9 March 2020)

He is utterly lovely.


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## Michen (9 March 2020)

scotlass said:



			He's lovely.  Wishing you every success, fun and happiness with him.

Also admiring the yard too!
		
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Yes his yard costs more than the rent of my hampshire cottage lol! Worth it though it's a brilliant place and I trust them completely, even more important given his nervousness.


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## ycbm (9 March 2020)

I thought he was smaller.  You've got a bay pure Connie with bone and movement who will mature over 16 hands? He'll be worth a mint in a year's time. I am seriously green eyed. 

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## Michen (9 March 2020)

ycbm said:



			You've got a bay pure Connie with bone and movement who will mature over 16 hands? He'll be worth a mint in a year's time. I am seriously green eyed.

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Well tbh I'm assuming he's more like 15hh right now after the feet were trimmed!!!

He doesn't seem any bigger than Boggle, who measured in at 15hh as a rising 5 year old but who I think has grown a bit. 

I'll stick Bear in a few weeks and see! Well, ya know, if you want to make an offer I could be persuaded to give him up and spend the money on a diving trip in the Galapagos  I joke!


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## sky1000 (9 March 2020)

He is lovely


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## SatansLittleHelper (9 March 2020)

What a lovely, lovely boy. Fantastic trot 😍😍😍
I'm not jealous though.....😒😒😒😜


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## Michen (9 March 2020)

Oh one more semi decent pic that I meant to upload!


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## Pinkvboots (9 March 2020)

He looks really lovely I used Daktarin athletes foot spray on my ponies rain scald it did clear it up.


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## RHM (9 March 2020)

Oh I love him 😍 I can’t cope with his cute little face and that trot!! You are going to have so much fun with this one!


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## oldie48 (9 March 2020)

He's really lovely. You honestly can't beat a good connie! Have fun!


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## splashgirl45 (9 March 2020)

he looks great in the videos,  hope you have lots of fun with him....


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## Mule (9 March 2020)

He does have a super trot.
As for the rainscald, if it's bad, I have used diluted hibiscrub with warm water. Massage it in, leave for about 5- 10 mins, then wash off with warm water. Do it every 3 days and *don't* pick off the scabs. They will loosen with the warm water.

You can also use oil to massage off the scabs. Pig oil is good. The sulphur is antibacterial. Do a test patch to make sure he's ok with it. You could also use something simple like veg oil as there isnt a risk of sensitivity as there isn't any sulphur in it. Warm it between your hands before putting it on. Massage it in and don't wash off. It will soak in. It's a gentle way of treating it. I usually use this for mud rash but rainscald is the same condition, just in a different place.


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## m1stify (9 March 2020)

You lucky thing he is fab!


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## Jeni the dragon (9 March 2020)

He's very cute! Can't wait to see how he changes over the next couple of months!


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## Bernster (9 March 2020)

Seriously smart. He has that pony look so surprised he’s 15.3 but he’s gorgeous whatever!  That hind leg in trot !


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## McFluff (10 March 2020)

He’s super smart. Looking forward to your journey with him. Thanks for sharing as it’s a privilege to see a partnership forming.


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## Wheels (10 March 2020)

He is very lovely. Enjoy him!


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## Northern (10 March 2020)

Isn't he just great  I wish we had more connies here over 15hh, have been searching for years but they are like hens teeth!

He's going to be so cool I think


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## scats (10 March 2020)

Love this thread!  What a gorgeous boy, I can’t wait to follow his progress.


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## Red-1 (10 March 2020)

He looks gorgeous! Better and better. I really think you have bought a stunner.


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## Ellzbellz97 (10 March 2020)

He is gorgeous, what a lovely trot he has too! Good luck with your adventures with him xx


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## scats (10 March 2020)

I was trying to work out why I seem so drawn to him and I’ve realised that his face is so similar to my old lad Joe.  He’s definitely become one of my forum favourites now!


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## Archangel (10 March 2020)

He is gorgeous, well done.


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## Michen (10 March 2020)

I’ll definitely measure him myself at some point as I really don’t think he seems bigger than Boggle but I do think Bog must be 15.1/15.2hh now...

Will be interesting to see how he feels when I’m on board!!!

Thanks everyone, so cool that his new life so far is totally documented on here from ooh isn’t he cute to actual photos on English soil! 😃


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## jhoward (10 March 2020)

Re the rain scald mitchen. Bit of warm salty water to moisten the scabs then cover with athlete foot powder they will be gone in a few days


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## AandK (10 March 2020)

Oh he is super smart! You have a cracking little horse there, looking forward to following his progress with you!

Re the rain scald, if is no longer active (no scabs etc) then I would be tempted to leave it. Otherwise I have had great success treating mud fever with meddimud, it's an oily topical treatment, cleared my 7yo mud fever up with him living out and me slapping it on his muddy legs a few times a week.


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## Patterdale (10 March 2020)

He’s lovely. Really smart.

My only reservation is that I know Connemara prices and he was suspiciously cheap. But if the seller seems genuine then you may have just got lucky!


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## Asha (10 March 2020)

What a lovely horse you have there . Very excited for you , can’t wait for the ridden updates . What a super buy.


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## Trouper (10 March 2020)

For those of us who are too old to take on another, this is horse-ownership by proxy!  Have been following your search for a pony thread but not commented as others on here have a far better eye than I do but it it so lovely that you have found him and that he has arrived.  He seems to have a kind personality so over to you with the training now!!!    If other options mentioned don't work for the rain scald, I have had success with Camrosa ointment for other persistent skin conditions/scarring.  Perhaps a supplement to help from the inside too.


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## Errin Paddywack (10 March 2020)

As another who is too old to take on another I agree this is horse ownership by proxy.  Very envious, he is lovely in every respect and his action loose made me want to get on and feel it for myself, not many I can say that about.  Lovely trot but effortless canter too.  My appaloosa stallion had that lovely easy canter, I used to watch him cantering across the field and just melt.


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## Michen (10 March 2020)

Bog is furious at the lack of his name in this thread and would like to remind everyone that he is King of Hampshire and rules all Connemara's entering his land.

Also being immensely good three weeks of box rest in, even now for the hand walking (with aid of a chifney, wonderful bit of kit), doing carrot stretches daily and ensuring I keep him immaculately groomed and looking ready for Badminton.


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## be positive (10 March 2020)

He looks super, agree with probably too cheap but someone has to get lucky now and again and if they were genuinely wanting him to go to a home rather than be passed on through dealers they may well have picked you to be the lucky one.
156cm is a bit over 15.1, not 15.3, or it in English   so with feet trimmed he is probably about 153/ 15 hands which is what he looks like, a proper overgrown pony at the moment that once finished will be a smart little horse.


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## Michen (10 March 2020)

be positive said:



			He looks super, agree with probably too cheap but someone has to get lucky now and again and if they were genuinely wanting him to go to a home rather than be passed on through dealers they may well have picked you to be the lucky one.
156cm is a bit over 15.1, not 15.3, or it in English   so with feet trimmed he is probably about 153/ 15 hands which is what he looks like, a proper overgrown pony at the moment that once finished will be a smart little horse.
		
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Oh doh, I keyed in into google as a conversion and incorrect!! I did think it seemed excessive even with the hoof trim, so that makes more sensse.

Sorry YCBM looks like he won't be that 16hh rareity after all!!


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## Michen (10 March 2020)

Patterdale said:



			He’s lovely. Really smart.

My only reservation is that I know Connemara prices and he was suspiciously cheap. But if the seller seems genuine then you may have just got lucky!
		
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I know connemara prices too, I did my research and looked at hundreds of adverts in the last few weeks. Literally hundreds.  I recall you saying offer 3,000 euros (I paid 3,500 and he was asking 4,000) and get him, that he was cheap but not suspiciously so, it's only since I've posted more videos and pics that people seem to now think he was a good bargain.  The seller is also a friend of a friend of a friend and has a good rep.

From the sellers POV, his fields are under water so he's stabled all day and the horse has only been back under saddle very briefly, he didn't really properly advertise  (I think I actually found him through him replying on a wanted ad with a blurry pic, I can't remember) and got a buyer who didn't mess around and was willing to organise vetting within hours of seeing photos.

Of course maybe I'll unearth some problems but he's a baby, but we are basically treating him as unbacked anyway and in theory he hasn't really done enough to *have* a problem yet- but we will see.

I'm not suspicious whatsoever, I think it was a case of right place at right time and I have total faith in the seller (who, btw, said even now if he's not what I wanted or expected I can send him back)


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## bubsqueaks (10 March 2020)

Wow Bear looks stunning already - well done for being so brave & trusting your instinct you deserve every success X


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## Asha (10 March 2020)

No matter whether you have a good eye or not buying horses always come with an element of risk and pot luck .
Time will tell what you have , but he does look a super type . Plus you have the added the benefit that he’s hasn’t done much at all , so a nice fresh canvas . Youre clearly capable of dealing with a young un and have the right contacts / set up to help him progress. Good luck !


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## Michen (10 March 2020)

Asha said:



			No matter whether you have a good eye or not buying horses always come with an element of risk and pot luck .
Time will tell what you have , but he does look a super type . Plus you have the added the benefit that he’s hasn’t done much at all , so a nice fresh canvas . Youre clearly capable of dealing with a young un and have the right contacts / set up to help him progress. Good luck !
		
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Thank you 

Yes, very true. I’m really excited, I have realised now I can’t imagine ever not buying a baby as it’s this kind of thing that I find motivating and inspiring. Am a bit sad I’m not doing the initial work in some ways but I do think the two/three weeks Ridden livery is a sensible idea. There was not one bit of me that wanted to go and buy something established ready to take me around a BE90, even if I had a spare 10k to buy it.

I have a great support network and learned so much from Boggle, hopefully I’ll get it bang on right with Bear!!


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## BBP (10 March 2020)

Bog Bog Bog Bog Bog Bog BOGGLE!!!! (I am team Boggle all the way,... we have our own pesky invading Connie here trying to steal the king connies crown, so I get how he feels!)


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## sherry90 (10 March 2020)

He’s super and the name Bear suits him down to the ground!


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## Michen (10 March 2020)

BBP said:



			Bog Bog Bog Bog Bog Bog BOGGLE!!!! (I am team Boggle all the way,... we have our own pesky invading Connie here trying to steal the king connies crown, so I get how he feels!)
		
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Here’s a cute video from the other day. Miley totally not sure she actually likes being groomed by Boggle but she does like to give him a good lick.

He is so gentle with dogs and especially her, she likes to share his breakfast with him and never have I seen him even flick an ear back! She sometimes jumps up at his nose to tell him off and he just ends up looking really sad.


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## ElleSkywalker (10 March 2020)

OMG how cute is Bog and his dog 😍😍😍😍


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## Michen (10 March 2020)

ElleSkywalker said:



			OMG how cute is Bog and his dog 😍😍😍😍
		
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Best buddies, she helped with all his long reining three years ago too!


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## ElleSkywalker (10 March 2020)

So cute!


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## DirectorFury (10 March 2020)

You definitely like your animals to be colour-coordinated .
Bear is lovely, I'm going to ask you to find my next horse .


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## Rosemary28 (10 March 2020)

DirectorFury said:



			You definitely like your animals to be colour-coordinated .
Bear is lovely, I'm going to ask you to find my next horse .
		
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I was just going to say you clearly have a thing for animals that colour!


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## Michen (10 March 2020)

Rosemary28 said:



			I was just going to say you clearly have a thing for animals that colour! 

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Ha! Miley isn't mine, I look after her for big long chunks of the year (and have done for about 7 years now so utterly adore her) as her owners spend a lot of time in Australia and abroad in general. 

I actually think bays are really boring but I love connies and they are far more practical than greys


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## be positive (10 March 2020)

Nice to see Miley, my choc lab was often called Bear as she reminded me of a teddy bear


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## BBP (10 March 2020)

Michen said:



			Here’s a cute video from the other day. Miley totally not sure she actually likes being groomed by Boggle but she does like to give him a good lick.

He is so gentle with dogs and especially her, she likes to share his breakfast with him and never have I seen him even flick an ear back! She sometimes jumps up at his nose to tell him off and he just ends up looking really sad.







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That’s so cute! BBP is exactly the same with dogs. He and I are both gutted that my dog doesn’t like horses. 
(Successfully derailed thread from Bear to Bog).


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## J&S (10 March 2020)

My ponies have always played "follow the dog" when they were young and when it was safe to hack out with dogs.


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## Michen (10 March 2020)

BBP said:



			That’s so cute! BBP is exactly the same with dogs. He and I are both gutted that my dog doesn’t like horses.
(Successfully derailed thread from Bear to Bog).
		
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Bog will be most satisfied, he will probably send you a thank you card!


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## SatansLittleHelper (10 March 2020)

#wasonTeamBogglebutnowonthefenceasalsoloveTeamBear


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## Tarragon (10 March 2020)

I am going to enjoy following this thread.
I wanted to say how smart your premises are. I love the look of the stables and the indoor school has a lovely airy feel to it. If I kept my ponies there I would feel inspired to turn out only the best!


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## Michen (10 March 2020)

Tarragon said:



			I am going to enjoy following this thread.
I wanted to say how smart your premises are. I love the look of the stables and the indoor school has a lovely airy feel to it. If I kept my ponies there I would feel inspired to turn out only the best!
		
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Ah that is just Bears schooling yard! It’s actually a professional showjumping yard, they’ve had Boggle in his younger days when I’ve been on holiday etc as well. Agree it’s absolutely beautiful am loving going there. It feels like a Spanish villa! Boggles/Bears next yard is amazing as well though


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## Sprat (10 March 2020)

What a total poppet, you have a cracking little horse there. Looking forward to more updates!


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## Michen (10 March 2020)

SatansLittleHelper said:



			#wasonTeamBogglebutnowonthefenceasalsoloveTeamBear
		
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How could you! Boggle will be distraught!


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## anyalouise (10 March 2020)

He is smart!  rain scald I had this with mine coming over from Ireland.  I had a Scottish friend who told me to get Aromoheel. My horse was covered in it down to fetlock. It cleared it in 4 days. The vet was amazed. In Scotland everyone has a pot in their grooming kit!!


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## Abi90 (10 March 2020)

Michen. You have inspired me. I’m now saving up for an unbacked/just backed Irish baby over the next 6 months or so. Something not a full draught and a bit smaller than 16.3hh hopefully.

Im going to do it regardless of Rosie’s prognosis as I can afford 2 realistically if I wanted.


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## EventingMum (10 March 2020)

Bear is seriously smart! Obviously you are tremendously loyal to Bogle but I suspect at some point Bear will end up sharing equal status with him - a bit like a mother with two children on any given day you may prefer one over the other but ultimately you love them both equally!


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## Michen (10 March 2020)

Abi90 said:



			Michen. You have inspired me. I’m now saving up for an unbacked/just backed Irish baby over the next 6 months or so. Something not a full draught and a bit smaller than 16.3hh hopefully.

Im going to do it regardless of Rosie’s prognosis as I can afford 2 realistically if I wanted.
		
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Hehe well you are braver than me as my intention really isn’t to have two in proper ridden work under my full care long term!!


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## Abi90 (10 March 2020)

Michen said:



			Hehe well you are braver than me as my intention really isn’t to have two in proper ridden work under my full care long term!!
		
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You say that... tbh by the time I have saved up for a nice youngster Rosie may need to retire anyway. But I have contingencies, she’s basically like a baby at the moment anyway with getting her thinking forward. 

Although interestingly I don’t think her saddle fits at all, despite having been checked so it could be that was the issue after all and we found the Pastern by mistake 🙈


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## Michen (10 March 2020)

Abi90 said:



			You say that... tbh by the time I have saved up for a nice youngster Rosie may need to retire anyway. But I have contingencies, she’s basically like a baby at the moment anyway with getting her thinking forward. 

Although interestingly I don’t think her saddle fits at all, despite having been checked so it could be that was the issue after all and we found the Pastern by mistake 🙈
		
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Don’t write her off in your mind just yet then, the pastern sounded like a good news scenario really compared to what you expected. If or when Rosie retires you may find Bear is looking for a loan home- you never know!


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## SatansLittleHelper (10 March 2020)

Michen said:



			How could you! Boggle will be distraught!
		
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To be fair I love them both ❤❤❤❤
I'm impressed with your taste in horses, and I don't think bays are boring...love a nice bay 😁😁😁😁😁


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## Michen (10 March 2020)

SatansLittleHelper said:



			To be fair I love them both ❤❤❤❤
I'm impressed with your taste in horses, and I don't think bays are boring...love a nice bay 😁😁😁😁😁
		
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Did you see much of Basil before I lost him (broken leg in colic surgery recovery), he was also an absolute legend and got me hooked on connies. You’d have liked him too!

I see a lot of him in Bear. I thought Basil was ugly and boring when I got him and he became the most fun, awesome, smart little horse I could ever have wished for. 

A terrible hunter though.. never did find a bit that could stop him over taking the master!


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## Patterdale (10 March 2020)

Michen said:



			I know connemara prices too, I did my research and looked at hundreds of adverts in the last few weeks. Literally hundreds.  I recall you saying offer 3,000 euros (I paid 3,500 and he was asking 4,000) and get him, that he was cheap but not suspiciously so, it's only since I've posted more videos and pics that people seem to now think he was a good bargain.  The seller is also a friend of a friend of a friend and has a good rep.

From the sellers POV, his fields are under water so he's stabled all day and the horse has only been back under saddle very briefly, he didn't really properly advertise  (I think I actually found him through him replying on a wanted ad with a blurry pic, I can't remember) and got a buyer who didn't mess around and was willing to organise vetting within hours of seeing photos.

Of course maybe I'll unearth some problems but he's a baby, but we are basically treating him as unbacked anyway and in theory he hasn't really done enough to *have* a problem yet- but we will see.

I'm not suspicious whatsoever, I think it was a case of right place at right time and I have total faith in the seller (who, btw, said even now if he's not what I wanted or expected I can send him back)
		
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Sorry if that came across negative or critical, I didn’t mean that at all!

I thought he looked cheap for what he was from the pics and videos, but seeing your videos etc he’s serious quality. So now I think he was very cheap 😂 and on the haggling - even if they’d been asking £1.25 I’d still suggest offering 90p. 😂

I think you’ve just been v lucky. This weather, I think there’ll have been a few bargains about. Can’t wait to see how he gets on


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## Lammy (10 March 2020)

He’s a little ripper!
You’re going to have some serious fun with him and it’s great that the seller seems so lovely and genuine too. 
Glad to see him on English soil! I hope Boggle isn’t too upset when he meets his new brother 😂


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## Michen (10 March 2020)

Yard was at an SJ comp today so enlisted help of Boggles sharer (now Bears!) and we did some desensitisation, tacked up, lay across patting all over etc. No shaking, barely a flinch and stayed relaxed most of the time. Walked him around a bit with me laying over him, we are literally treating him as unbacked. He also learned about the wash bay today so I can get him used to it to eventually give him a good bath at some point in the next couple of weeks!! He’s actually a very curious chap.

He is SO affectionate omg, and has totally latched on to me as his human, will follow me around and look for me even when I’m not his handler. And he only picks his feet up for me which is an honour  

Just a couple of photos of me whispering to him that it’s all going to be ok Bear and I promise you will love your new life! He gives the most amazing hugs and just wants you to hold his head all the time.


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## Michen (10 March 2020)

Patterdale said:



			Sorry if that came across negative or critical, I didn’t mean that at all!

I thought he looked cheap for what he was from the pics and videos, but seeing your videos etc he’s serious quality. So now I think he was very cheap 😂 and on the haggling - even if they’d been asking £1.25 I’d still suggest offering 90p. 😂

I think you’ve just been v lucky. This weather, I think there’ll have been a few bargains about. Can’t wait to see how he gets on 

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No issue, just feels a bit unfair to post suspicions of the seller, who in my opinion cares deeply about the pony he bred and perhaps recognised a straightforward and dedicated buyer when he saw one  So I probably feel a little defensive on his behalf!

Either way I am feeling super lucky and glad my instincts have (so far) proven time be good. 

Xx


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## DabDab (10 March 2020)

Aww, glad he's settling. My connie does a good line in shaking like a leaf, but then becomes alright with whatever is bothering her just as quickly, she just seems to be very demonstrative with her feelings. She is also funny with strange people until she decides that they can be admitted into her circle of trust, and then she switches to being the cuddliest, most affectionate pony they've ever met 😂

Glad Bog is also behaving himself , and looking as fabulous as ever. I look forward to seeing some ridden pics of Bear


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## Caol Ila (10 March 2020)

Looks like a sweet wee horse.  You realise you'll be stuck with two forever, lol!


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## Michen (10 March 2020)

DabDab said:



			Aww, glad he's settling. My connie does a good line in shaking like a leaf, but then becomes alright with whatever is bothering her just as quickly, she just seems to be very demonstrative with her feelings. She is also funny with strange people until she decides that they can be admitted into her circle of trust, and then she switches to being the cuddliest, most affectionate pony they've ever met 😂

Glad Bog is also behaving himself , and looking as fabulous as ever. I look forward to seeing some ridden pics of Bear
		
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Ahh that’s interesting! Have never had one who shakes before (unless excited re hunting!). 

Boggle looks like he’s just about to go eventing, three weeks in and he’s not put on an ounce of weight. He’s relaxed in his box but not eating a huge amount as ever. 

Tomorrow is an exciting day as we increase to 10 min am and 10 min PM!!!!!


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## KEK (10 March 2020)

He's totally gorgeous and I am looking forward to following your story together! Malachy is cuddly too and I love it  
Do you have any tips on Connie mane and tail maintenance? Esp since Bog is so incredibly turned out, thought you might have a few! Malachys' are already pretty long .. and he's grey.. lol


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## DabDab (10 March 2020)

Michen said:



			Ahh that’s interesting! Have never had one who shakes before (unless excited re hunting!).

Boggle looks like he’s just about to go eventing, three weeks in and he’s not put on an ounce of weight. He’s relaxed in his box but not eating a huge amount as ever.

Tomorrow is an exciting day as we increase to 10 min am and 10 min PM!!!!!
		
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No me neither, it's an odd trait, particularly as she's so pragmatic about getting over scary things quickly 🤷‍♀️. She has a funny little personality - part my little pony, part native barbarian. I find it quite endearing 😍


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## Michen (10 March 2020)

KEK said:



			He's totally gorgeous and I am looking forward to following your story together! Malachy is cuddly too and I love it 
Do you have any tips on Connie mane and tail maintenance? Esp since Bog is so incredibly turned out, thought you might have a few! Malachys' are already pretty long .. and he's grey.. lol
		
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Ummmm yes I do... pay someone else to do it 😂😂😂 Honestly you’d laugh if you saw my real turnout, Be positive can testify that I tend to rock up to events with plaits everywhere and ponies with toilet brushes for tails..however always with a fit and well looking horse!

In all seriousness I battled for ages with Boggles mane and eventually paid someone to thin and pull it properly and then kept on top of it myself. Made it so much easier. I clip the tails (badly, they grow out to look fine enough pretty quick) and I also have fully clipped horses at all times for several reasons

a) I cannot stand beards, feathers etc from an aesthetics point of view despite being happy to rock up to events looking disheveled. It’s obviously totally incorrect to trim Connies the way I do but it’s what I prefer so I crack on with it!
B) I am really allergic to horses and absolutely can’t groom a horse that’s moulting anywhere. Makes me really uncomfortable and wheezy despite antihistamines.
Edited to add a c)
I actually find Connies grow quite a thick summer coat or at least Basil and Bog do/did, find its much nicer for them to be clipped and easier to keep them cool when they are working hard or it’s super hot.


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## KEK (10 March 2020)

Michen said:



			Ummmm yes I do... pay someone else to do it 😂😂😂 Honestly you’d laugh if you saw my real turnout, Be positive can testify that I tend to rock up to events with plaits everywhere and ponies with toilet brushes for tails..however always with a fit and well looking horse!

In all seriousness I battled for ages with Boggles mane and eventually paid someone to thin and pull it properly and then kept on top of it myself. Made it so much easier. I clip the tails (badly, they grow out to look fine enough pretty quick) and I also have fully clipped horses at all times for several reasons

a) I cannot stand beards, feathers etc from an aesthetics point of view despite being happy to rock up to events looking disheveled. It’s obviously totally incorrect to trim Connies the way I do but it’s what I prefer so I crack on with it!
B) I am really allergic to horses and absolutely can’t groom a horse that’s moulting anywhere. Makes me really uncomfortable and wheezy despite antihistamines.
Edited to add a c)
I actually find Connies grow quite a thick summer coat or at least Basil and Bog do/did, find its much nicer for them to be clipped and easier to keep them cool when they are working hard or it’s super hot.
		
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Thanks for the reply  do you use any mane/tail conditioners etc? He does have a pretty thick coat , even now when it's 35 degrees every day, much thicker than the standy. I will think about clipping it next summer. I guess I would then need to summer sheet though, from a Sun protection POV? 
Bog looks unbelievably fit and well, would be very happy if my pony looked like that!


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## Michen (10 March 2020)

KEK said:



			Thanks for the reply  do you use any mane/tail conditioners etc? He does have a pretty thick coat , even now when it's 35 degrees every day, much thicker than the standy. I will think about clipping it next summer. I guess I would then need to summer sheet though, from a Sun protection POV?
Bog looks unbelievably fit and well, would be very happy if my pony looked like that!
		
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KEK said:



			Thanks for the reply  do you use any mane/tail conditioners etc? He does have a pretty thick coat , even now when it's 35 degrees every day, much thicker than the standy. I will think about clipping it next summer. I guess I would then need to summer sheet though, from a Sun protection POV?
Bog looks unbelievably fit and well, would be very happy if my pony looked like that!
		
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An occasional spritz on his mane just to make it more slippery so neck rugs don’t rub it out.

Yes though I keep them in during the day in the summer and try and turn out when the suns really cooled down if it’s hot.. obviously our climate is somewhat different to yours so our hot is probably your cold!!!

Boggle has had occasional periods of porkiness mid summer but it’s rare, in general if he’s fit he’s then buzzy and then just keeps himself trim, as did my last Connie (if only the same could be said for myself..). He does take a huge amount of feeding in the winter if I hunt him though but I don’t feed him anything really April-Sept. 

I dunno I just think they are better off leaner than slightly chubby. This was my other Connie, Basil, also a buzzy bean. He had a hernia so a bit of a funny shape under his belly but he was always shiny like Bog and looked well.

I don’t actually groom much at all either btw, I’m only grooming Boggle a lot now because I think it’s important for a horse that’s stuck in a box.


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## KEK (10 March 2020)

Michen said:



			An occasional spritz on his mane just to make it more slippery so neck rugs don’t rub it out.

Yes though I keep them in during the day in the summer and try and turn out when the suns really cooled down if it’s hot.. obviously our climate is somewhat different to yours so our hot is probably your cold!!!

Boggle has had occasional periods of porkiness mid summer but it’s rare, in general if he’s fit he’s then buzzy and then just keeps himself trim, as did my last Connie (if only the same could be said for myself..). He does take a huge amount of feeding in the winter if I hunt him though but I don’t feed him anything really April-Sept. 

I dunno I just think they are better off leaner than slightly chubby. This was my other Connie, Basil, also a buzzy bean. He had a hernia so a bit of a funny shape under his belly but he was always shiny like Bog and looked well.

I don’t actually groom much at all either btw, I’m only grooming Boggle a lot now because I think it’s important for a horse that’s stuck in a box.




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Also gorgeous! Very shiny  We don't have any stables yet. We will put them in down the track, but need float and our own arena 1st (haha 'need') 
I've only had mine for a week.. seems to be very very good at eating. Have already progressed him to the smallest square haynet I can find and he just stands there till it's pretty much gone. Can't work him too much yet, he's only rising 4. Will see how we go with weight .. I am suspecting it will be need to be managed.


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## Accidental Eventer (11 March 2020)

KEK said:



			Thanks for the reply  do you use any mane/tail conditioners etc? He does have a pretty thick coat , even now when it's 35 degrees every day, much thicker than the standy. I will think about clipping it next summer. I guess I would then need to summer sheet though, from a Sun protection POV?
Bog looks unbelievably fit and well, would be very happy if my pony looked like that!
		
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Kek, I am pretty sure you're in the same part of the world as me! My horses coats are changing already so I wouldn't be surprised if yours were too despite it still being too hot for autumn! I told mine yesterday he had better stop growing it because it's too early to clip still. 

Michen Bear and Bog are both lovely, can't wait to follow your progress!


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## GSD Woman (11 March 2020)

He's adorable.  I love Connies.  Heck, I love most of the "true" Irish breeds/types. I could say it is because like a lot of Americans that my ancestry is heavily Irish.
For rain rot 2 old fashioned remedies is scrubbing with a 10% bleach in warm water.  The other is to use old fashioned amber Listerine. Store brand works too.  That stuff works on dog hot spots and nail fungus too.


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## Michen (11 March 2020)

Thanks guys! This thread has really helped, I have to admit I've had a slight WTF wobble, I think mainly because Bear being at another yard to Boggle is making things tricky for now as it's so much extra driving and time. It's a huge commitment to be up at Boggle's yard twice a day (usually I'd pay for turnout and bring in and muck out whenever I could get there) to muck out, in hand walk etc on top of a busy job with lots of travel. This morning I was walking him at 4am to be on the 6am train into London! I think everyone thinks I'm a bit bonkers to not send him to a rehab yard but I want to do it myself and I'm not ready to say good bye to him yet. Only 9 more weeks  

I don't technically need to go see Bear daily but really want him to get to know me so his move in a couple of weeks is less stressful. Life will be easier once he's on the same yard as Boggle (where he will be on part livery)… cannot wait


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## be positive (11 March 2020)

Grooming, what is grooming, my first meeting with Bog was at a show with no more than a dandy brush, not even a cloth for a wipe over, I think the next time I took my show box and did a bit more of a spruce up.

I have never known anyone go to a BE event with so little, horse, tack, boots, rider, food for horse, we did have plenty of G&T or Pimms though.

Having said that a fit healthy horse will shine with minimum grooming, which is why Bog looks so super and Bear will soon be looking much the same, good food, plenty of proper work to not only get them fit but to also open the pores and help remove any build up of grease is the secret and why most racehorses gleam, the grooming just adds a bit extra it will not make an unhealthy horse look good however much you try.


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## Michen (11 March 2020)

be positive said:



			Grooming, what is grooming, my first meeting with Bog was at a show with no more than a dandy brush, not even a cloth for a wipe over, I think the next time I took my show box and did a bit more of a spruce up.

I have never known anyone go to a BE event with so little, horse, tack, boots, rider, food for horse, we did have plenty of G&T or Pimms though.

Having said that a fit healthy horse will shine with minimum grooming, which is why Bog looks so super and Bear will soon be looking much the same, good food, plenty of proper work to not only get them fit but to also open the pores and help remove any build up of grease is the secret and why most racehorses gleam, the grooming just adds a bit extra it will not make an unhealthy horse look good however much you try.
		
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All true 

I'm sure Basil was subject to much better organisation


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## Keith_Beef (11 March 2020)

Lovely pictures. It's true, your blonde hair looks a bit like hay.




No wonder Bear tries to eat it.


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## Michen (11 March 2020)

Keith_Beef said:



			Lovely pictures. It's true, your blonde hair looks a bit like hay.

View attachment 42205


No wonder Bear tries to eat it.
		
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Hahaha note to self must use better conditioner!!!!


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## KEK (11 March 2020)

Accidental Eventer said:



			Kek, I am pretty sure you're in the same part of the world as me! My horses coats are changing already so I wouldn't be surprised if yours were too despite it still being too hot for autumn! I told mine yesterday he had better stop growing it because it's too early to clip still. 

Michen Bear and Bog are both lovely, can't wait to follow your progress!
		
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I suspect you are right... had a look at your blog and your pics looked suspiciously familiar! And your weather comments, altho we got no practically no rain  
Henry is gorgeous, off to have a better read


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## Michen (11 March 2020)

Freedom for Bear! Think he’s happy 😃


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## Dyllymoo (11 March 2020)

Ohhhhhh look how happy he is! 

He looks like an amazing boy and I am really excited to follow your progress


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## FinnBobs (11 March 2020)

Bog and Bear are both so beautiful! you are a lucky lady


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## janem_g (11 March 2020)

Look at him go. Not that I'm stalking but I'm fairly sure Boggle is at a yard my daughter had her pony at. I think I've met the famous man!


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## Michen (11 March 2020)

janem_g said:



			Look at him go. Not that I'm stalking but I'm fairly sure Boggle is at a yard my daughter had her pony at. I think I've met the famous man!
		
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Oh!! What was the ponies name!?


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## janem_g (11 March 2020)

Bertie


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## Michen (11 March 2020)

janem_g said:



			Bertie
		
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Ah yes I remember Bertie! It was indeed Boggle you met.


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## janem_g (11 March 2020)

Michen said:



			Ah yes I remember Bertie! It was indeed Boggle you met.
		
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Handsome and lively from what I saw


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## Michen (12 March 2020)

Ummmmm so Bear tried to jump out this am and clearly failed but really enjoyed romping around the yards beautiful gardens...no reason for it, he had company, just clearly felt the grass was greener.

Apparently he thought it was a superb game and there’s not a scratch on him. 

So I guess 

A) he’s a shit jumper 
B) he’s definitely got character. 

I remember Bog doing this his first week difference being he cleared the fence!


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## Annagain (12 March 2020)

Oh his little face in that photo. He knows he's been naughty doesn't he!


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## Rosemary28 (12 March 2020)

I love that second photo. That is a proper naughty pony face!


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## Roxylola (12 March 2020)

Whoops!  To be fair I know plenty of horses who are a bit rubbish at loose jumping but do still jump well under saddle so I wouldn't massively worry, also unless there were witnesses to the attempt he might not have actually been trying to jump out - hooning round and ran out of room to stop for instance.
Love that face though proper cheeky "who me?"


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## DirectorFury (12 March 2020)

His little face! Maybe he got a duff stride and that's why the fence was demolished?

When I was watching the video of him in the field the other day it did cross my mind that mine would have jumped right out 🙈.


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## Michen (12 March 2020)

Hehe. They are just paddocks really for a bit of turnout for the show jumpers.

I don’t know how he demolished the fence both sides of the middle post!?

Apparently he then ran riots around them when they tried to catch him!

Oh naughty Bear. Basil was a serious fence hopper too.


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## Annagain (12 March 2020)

Did anyone see him jump out? I wonder if it was more a case of rubbing a bit vigorously against the fence, it coming down and then him taking his opportunity?


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## J&S (12 March 2020)

That's a real "who, me?" face!  He probably thought if they couldn't see all of him he wasn't really there!


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## alibali (12 March 2020)

Ooo that cheeky face! 🤣


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## JJS (12 March 2020)

Michen said:



			Ummmmm so Bear tried to jump out this am and clearly failed but really enjoyed romping around the yards beautiful gardens...no reason for it, he had company, just clearly felt the grass was greener.

Apparently he thought it was a superb game and there’s not a scratch on him.

So I guess

A) he’s a shit jumper
B) he’s definitely got character.

I remember Bog doing this his first week difference being he cleared the fence!


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My TB x Connemara was also a notorious fence hopper and had oodles of character too. He might have looked like a lovely big sport horse, but he had so much pony character hiding beneath that beautiful surface. I miss him so incredibly much!


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## RHM (12 March 2020)

That face actually cracked me up 😂😂 he knows what he did!


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## Michen (12 March 2020)

annagain said:



			Did anyone see him jump out? I wonder if it was more a case of rubbing a bit vigorously against the fence, it coming down and then him taking his opportunity?
		
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No! So maybe? That would be the better solution 😂


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## Michen (12 March 2020)

Bear says it’s been a really hard day. Not only did he run riot with the grooms and have a good play in the apple orchids. He was also sat on and led around the school for the first time as if he’d never carried a rider before. Time for a snooze in preparation for me rocking up to pester him further!


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## Rosemary28 (12 March 2020)

Oh he's just so gorgeous! I am so jealous!


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## Sussexbythesea (12 March 2020)

Michen said:



			Ummmmm so Bear tried to jump out this am and clearly failed but really enjoyed romping around the yards beautiful gardens...no reason for it, he had company, just clearly felt the grass was greener.

Apparently he thought it was a superb game and there’s not a scratch on him.

So I guess

A) he’s a shit jumper
B) he’s definitely got character.

I remember Bog doing this his first week difference being he cleared the fence!


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OMG this made me giggle 😂.

I’m so looking forward to your adventures with him he seems to be a bit of a character!


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## SpringArising (12 March 2020)

My Connie is a shit for jumping out. I'm moving yards soon with lower fences and I'm really apprehensive about it...


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## BlackRider (12 March 2020)

Love his cheeky face after he'd escaped


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## tatty_v (12 March 2020)

My Connie is also a serial fence hopper. We’ve only managed to stop him so far with five foot post and rail and him becoming more aware of his limitations at 20 years old. I feel your pain!


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## tatty_v (12 March 2020)

SpringArising said:



			My Connie is a shit for jumping out. I'm moving yards soon with lower fences and I'm really apprehensive about it...
		
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Unless you’ve had a fence hopper, no one really appreciates the fear that you’ll go to get your horse and he just won’t be there!


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## Peregrine Falcon (12 March 2020)

Loving the look on his face!


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## DirectorFury (12 March 2020)

tatty_v said:



			Unless you’ve had a fence hopper, no one really appreciates the fear that you’ll go to get your horse and he just won’t be there!
		
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Ah, fond memories of the yard that had a woodchip gallops running around the perimeter of the land - she'd jump out of the field, onto the gallops, and have access to every single field and the yard from the gallops . Some days it would take me an hour just to find what field she was in!


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## Jeni the dragon (12 March 2020)

He looks like he's having an amazing time! But oops about the fence!
Friend had a Connie that used to fence hop, over big wide hedges!


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## Trouper (12 March 2020)

"Well if you hadn't put that rug on me I would have cleared it with ease.  It is Cheltenham week you know - just practising!"


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## DabDab (12 March 2020)

Oh his face! What a brilliant picture.

That fence does look more like the victim in a rug entanglement situation though (speaking from irritating experience )


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## Michen (12 March 2020)

DabDab said:



			Oh his face! What a brilliant picture.

That fence does look more like the victim in a rug entanglement situation though (speaking from irritating experience )
		
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You reckon? Rug all intact though? Maybe he was trying to itch his rain scald...


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## Bernster (12 March 2020)

His cheeky face!  But agree it seems odd that both sides of the fence have gone. But I have no idea how that happens.


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## DabDab (12 March 2020)

Michen said:



			You reckon? Rug all intact though? Maybe he was trying to itch his rain scald...
		
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Yeah I wouldn't be surprised, post and rail breaks comparatively easily vs a decent rug. Arty once left her rug on the demolished fence with one of the rails still through it - rug intact with all straps done up, horse minus rug but apparently unhurt, two sections of fence on the ground destroyed .


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## HashRouge (12 March 2020)

He's such a character! I can't wait to see how you get on with him


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## Mule (12 March 2020)

DabDab said:



			Yeah I wouldn't be surprised, post and rail breaks comparatively easily vs a decent rug. Arty once left her rug on the demolished fence with one of the rails still through it - rug intact with all straps done up, horse minus rug but apparently unhurt, two sections of fence on the ground destroyed .
		
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Especially if the wood has rotted.


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## Boulty (13 March 2020)

His face hiding from behind the hedge... sooo cheeky!  

You've managed to brighten my day a bit / remind me that I'm not the only owner of a naughty little whatsit (going off other replies perhaps it's a boy thing?) as Fuzzball's escaping / electric fence destroying have just earned him an eviction notice & he is spending the night (& probably whatever period of time elapses before I can find him a space elsewhere) confined to stable which is unideal as things go (especially because the top door has had to be shut as the bottom one is theoretically low enough for him to jump)


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## Michen (13 March 2020)

DabDab said:



			Yeah I wouldn't be surprised, post and rail breaks comparatively easily vs a decent rug. Arty once left her rug on the demolished fence with one of the rails still through it - rug intact with all straps done up, horse minus rug but apparently unhurt, two sections of fence on the ground destroyed .
		
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Ha! Ponies. Well hopefully it was that then. A fence hopper would be most inconvenient. 

Am feeling a bit out of my depth at the idea of him coming home in ten days or so, he’s only just being (very wobbly) led around with a rider on. Part of me wonders if we are totally babying him and actually should just be treating him as a normal, broken in horse but with a good dose of extra sensitivity to account for his nerves which, tbh, I think are pretty much ok ish now. I think I might leave him there an extra week or so but god it’s not ideal with work and two horses at different yards.


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## Roxylola (13 March 2020)

Are you going to get chance to have a sit on yourself in the next few days?  I'd be led by the feel you get from that - and maybe inclined if he feels worried rather than explosive to see what happens if you get going a bit


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## Michen (13 March 2020)

Roxylola said:



			Are you going to get chance to have a sit on yourself in the next few days?  I'd be led by the feel you get from that - and maybe inclined if he feels worried rather than explosive to see what happens if you get going a bit
		
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Probably next week I’ll get on him, once he’s had a few more days under saddle with the pros. I guess I’m thinking he may well go right back to the start again with another yard move. I can have friends help me at my yard etc but it’s tricky as we are all working, busy etc so I kind of need him at a point where I don’t rely on other people. I’d intend to do lots of long reining out hacking initially anyway which I can do solo.


Edited I actually don’t know why I’m doubting myself, I did all of Boggles first spent hours long reining out hacking , hacking him on my own under saddle, etc etc (until he went through his naughty stage). I am more than capable.. probably being a wet wipe.


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## Rowreach (13 March 2020)

Michen said:



			Ha! Ponies. Well hopefully it was that then. A fence hopper would be most inconvenient. 

Am feeling a bit out of my depth at the idea of him coming home in ten days or so, he’s only just being (very wobbly) led around with a rider on. Part of me wonders if we are totally babying him and actually should just be treating him as a normal, broken in horse but with a good dose of extra sensitivity to account for his nerves which, tbh, I think are pretty much ok ish now. I think I might leave him there an extra week or so but god it’s not ideal with work and two horses at different yards.
		
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Not sure I get why they're being so cautious?  There's videos of him walk/trot/canter/jump and he's going very sweetly.  He's probably wondering what the heck is going on.


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## Michen (13 March 2020)

Rowreach said:



			Not sure I get why they're being so cautious?  There's videos of him walk/trot/canter/jump and he's going very sweetly.  He's probably wondering what the heck is going on.
		
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Really just because he is/was so nervous?  In between those videos and now a lot has happened to him mentally- I don’t think it would have been right to just assume he should be picked up where he left off given the move was hard for him. So we figured it can only be a good thing to go right back to basics for a few sessions and make sure nothing happened to upset him and to desensitise him a bit.  That seems like a better option than to just hop on and hope for the best, quiet gentle work to improve his confidence but nothing that may set him back.  But now his confidence is hugely improved I do think he is ready to be treated a bit more like a normal horse.


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## be positive (13 March 2020)

Michen said:



			Really just because he is/was so nervous?  In between those videos and now a lot has happened to him mentally- I don’t think it would have been right to just assume he should be picked up where he left off given the move was hard for him. So we figured it can only be a good thing to go right back to basics for a few sessions and make sure nothing happened to upset him and to desensitise him a bit.  That seems like a better option than to just hop on and hope for the best, quiet gentle work to improve his confidence but nothing that may set him back.  But now his confidence is hugely improved I do think he is ready to be treated a bit more like a normal horse.
		
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A few days being cautious, giving him time to settle will have done no harm but I would hope by next week they will have him going forward, the only thing I would be a little careful about is how fast he was going previously, quietly in all paces, you can then spend time on getting the basics established and going out hacking, thinking back he was rushing along although seemingly happy he may be a bit more of a worrier than he appeared and the move was a major change for him, it is pleasing how quickly he has settled there is no great rush to crack on just because we all want updates


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## Rowreach (13 March 2020)

be positive said:



			A few days being cautious, giving him time to settle will have done no harm but I would hope by next week they will have him going forward, the only thing I would be a little careful about is how fast he was going previously, quietly in all paces, you can then spend time on getting the basics established and going out hacking, thinking back he was rushing along although seemingly happy he may be a bit more of a worrier than he appeared and the move was a major change for him, it is pleasing how quickly he has settled there is no great rush to crack on just because we all want updates

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Hacking is what I'd be doing for a few weeks, and not worrying about the other stuff too much.  Good for the mind, good for the soul, and good for strengthening him up.


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## Michen (13 March 2020)

Rowreach said:



			Hacking is what I'd be doing for a few weeks, and not worrying about the other stuff too much.  Good for the mind, good for the soul, and good for strengthening him up.
		
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That’s the plan, but I’m not about to have a horse go out on the lanes that’s not under saddle doing the basics in the school for at least several days confidently first. If we had got on him a few days ago and taken him out hacking It would have been completely irresponsible. The horse needs a bit of time to feel happy with his surroundings, having a rider on board etc and remembering what’s what since his upheaval in the safety of a school before we introduce him to the wider world again.  

It will come and once he’s established with the above hopefully in a few days will be the time to take him out hacking.


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## splashgirl45 (13 March 2020)

i dont think it does any harm to go slowly when a horse has moved and especially as he had so many moves in quick succession.  the pros should know what they are doing and should be able to judge when to crack on,  hopefully you will be on him yourself next week and will be able to feel for yourself and make a judgement..


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## Michen (13 March 2020)

This horse is going to really keep me on my toes lol. He’s an interesting mix of nervous with a massive dollop of stubborn pony cheek. Asked him to go in the wash box this eve..has been in it before just to have some carrots and get used to it.  Absolutely planted, nothing I could do to get him in it. Proper full on cheeky pony face, his eyes all soft and mischievous. 

It’s going to be really important that I get it absolutely right with him with cheeky pony behaviour vs genuine nerves... luckily he’s got super expressive eyes so it’s pretty obvious.

The pros say he is intelligent, stubborn and feisty amongst the nerves. I think they are right!!!


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## Surbie (13 March 2020)

Ooooh that pony face! Mine makes similar faces (big carthorse head tho) and despite the behaviour being exasperating to deal with, I can't help but smile inside. 

Love his velvety nose too.


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## Michen (13 March 2020)

Surbie said:



			Ooooh that pony face! Mine makes similar faces (big carthorse head tho) and despite the behaviour being exasperating to deal with, I can't help but smile inside.

Love his velvety nose too.
		
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I was not smiling earlier hahaha. And what can I do, he’s got it nailed with the whole I’m so nervous and scared thing. If it was Boggle I’d have walloped him on the arse and that would have been the end of it 😂😂


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## ihatework (13 March 2020)

Michen said:



			I was not smiling earlier hahaha. And what can I do, he’s got it nailed with the whole I’m so nervous and scared thing. If it was Boggle I’d have walloped him on the arse and that would have been the end of it 😂😂
		
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Try growling at him. Works for my conveniently anxious one who really would have a nervous breakdown if he got a wallop


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## Michen (13 March 2020)

ihatework said:



			Try growling at him. Works for my conveniently anxious one who really would have a nervous breakdown if he got a wallop
		
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Thanks I’ll give that a go!


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## J&S (13 March 2020)

He's rolling an eye a bit there!


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## Bernster (13 March 2020)

Well that’s an interesting combination of characteristics!!


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## Michen (13 March 2020)

J&S said:



			He's rolling an eye a bit there!
		
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Well yeah that’s kind of his point!!


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## KEK (14 March 2020)

I love his eyes, so expressive ! Sounds like quite a character haha


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## LouisCat (14 March 2020)

You probably tried it but for planting did you try turning him round and reversing him in. I've found sometimes they back in because it kind of breaks the phase of trying to almost pull them in


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## ycbm (14 March 2020)

Michen said:



			That’s the plan, but I’m not about to have a horse go out on the lanes that’s not under saddle doing the basics in the school for at least several days confidently first. If we had got on him a few days ago and taken him out hacking It would have been completely irresponsible. The horse needs a bit of time to feel happy with his surroundings, having a rider on board etc and remembering what’s what since his upheaval in the safety of a school before we introduce him to the wider world again.  

It will come and once he’s established with the above hopefully in a few days will be the time to take him out hacking.
		
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These days, with the traffic, I wouldn't hack a horse who doesn't know what a leg yield is.


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## Michen (14 March 2020)

My beautiful Boggle is being immaculate now at ten mins twice a day. I underestimated him it was only the first walk that was an issue. I think he got wind of Bear and is now enjoying being the golden boy, and he really is, very proud of him (not about to lose the chifney though..just in case)


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## Jeni the dragon (14 March 2020)

Boggle looking gorgeous as always!
Love the look Bear has on his face!


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## Ambers Echo (14 March 2020)

Glad Boggle is settling to his new lifestyle. Bear is just gorgeous. You'll never be able to part with him.


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## Michen (14 March 2020)

Massive morning for Bear! He had me to contend with. I long reined him around the yard turn away fields etc pretty good in all. Forward and relaxed. Until we came to a crackling electricity pylon and I very nearly lost him when he tried to piss off (slippery grass didn’t help). Learnt though, went past it again no issue. 

His default when panicked is to run. I’m a little apprehensive about long reining him out hacking in case I lose him... hmmm. 

He’s such a cheeky fella, asked him to stand and suddenly a front paw was waving around! So worked on that. He learns super super quick and doesn’t really need to be told twice. 

Much better confidence wise in general on ground, had a full on hot bath and mane pull and seems to quite like the attention. 

Excuse the shit lack of photos!


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## Myloubylou (14 March 2020)

Michen said:



			This horse is going to really keep me on my toes lol. He’s an interesting mix of nervous with a massive dollop of stubborn pony cheek. Asked him to go in the wash box this eve..has been in it before just to have some carrots and get used to it.  Absolutely planted, nothing I could do to get him in it. Proper full on cheeky pony face, his eyes all soft and mischievous.

It’s going to be really important that I get it absolutely right with him with cheeky pony behaviour vs genuine nerves... luckily he’s got super expressive eyes so it’s pretty obvious.

The pros say he is intelligent, stubborn and feisty amongst the nerves. I think they are right!!!

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 he looks very handsome in his headcollar. Where did you get it? Headcollar that is


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## Michen (14 March 2020)

For anyone who say the Glendarrig dolphin x Illusion mare gelding for sale.. was posted on the other thread, just picked it up- a friend bought it!


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## Michen (15 March 2020)

Oh that pony glint...very good Bear today long reining again with me. I am slightly amused at the paw waving when I ask him to stand still (but does re learn very quickly not to do it)  and he is still trying this “you can’t tell me off I’m so nervous” thing which when he looks at me with this expression is no longer effective. 

I also put him under a little pressure to get him into the wash box as really felt he was taking the piss this time which was successful and less than a minute. 

So all in all a very cheeky character is emerging, and hardly nervous now as long as you make it clear what’s about to happen and don’t surprise him too much with anything.


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## Abi90 (15 March 2020)

What a cheeky face!


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## Michen (15 March 2020)

Abi90 said:



			What a cheeky face!
		
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Very cheeky. But such a softy, he literally just wants his big meat head hugging all the time. Quite sweet really, Boggle would lift me off the ground if I tried to hug his head!


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## Michen (15 March 2020)

Myloubylou said:



			he looks very handsome in his headcollar. Where did you get it? Headcollar that is
		
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eBay but loads of horsey shops sell them!


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## splashgirl45 (15 March 2020)

what a cheeky face,  glad things are going well


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## Amymay (15 March 2020)

Michen said:



			eBay but loads of horsey shops sell them!
		
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I have a matching belt 😁


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## Millie-Rose (15 March 2020)

Just to make you feel a bit better I had a breaker in this year that owner had Sat on and been walked round in hand then turned away. Owner long reined and got back to that point but didn't get on as no help then sent to me. I gave her a week of long reining to get used to me and settle in then started leaning over. She was so nervous and explosive it took 4 days of leaning over then another 5 days of being led round the school feeling like an unexploded bomb. I was starting to despair as she wasn't getting any better and owner who expected me to pick off where she'd left off was getting frustrated and wanted me to push on and see what happened. I didn't particularly want to get launched and mindful that she'd run until she was exhausted and through fences with owner when first rugged did not want her to learn that exploding got rid of her problem! Anyway day 6 of being Sat on she took a huge breath relaxed and was not a problem from that day on. Went from wobbling round being led to trotting round school on my own in that one session and was hacking and being a star three days after that. Did revert a bit once owner back on and was very tense and unhappy again and again after 5 to 6 days of this I was starting to think they weren't going to work as a partnership but again she all of  sudden decided it was ok and was fine for owner thereafter. Shortly after that she went home and owner was riding on her own in paddock in all paces and hacking out with just a walker on ground. I would give yours the time the pro's obviously know what they're doing and pushing him before ready would  be counterproductive but once he decides it's ok I think he'll be very quickly back to how he was at breeders I don't think you'll need to essentially re-break him which is  I appreciate how it probably feels at the moment. I also agree with you there's no way in hell I would have attempted hacking this one when walking a circle in the school was still an issue. Not fair on other road users or safe for rider.


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## Michen (15 March 2020)

Millie-Rose said:



			Just to make you feel a bit better I had a breaker in this year that owner had Sat on and been walked round in hand then turned away. Owner long reined and got back to that point but didn't get on as no help then sent to me. I gave her a week of long reining to get used to me and settle in then started leaning over. She was so nervous and explosive it took 4 days of leaning over then another 5 days of being led round the school feeling like an unexploded bomb. I was starting to despair as she wasn't getting any better and owner who expected me to pick off where she'd left off was getting frustrated and wanted me to push on and see what happened. I didn't particularly want to get launched and mindful that she'd run until she was exhausted and through fences with owner when first rugged did not want her to learn that exploding got rid of her problem! Anyway day 6 of being Sat on she took a huge breath relaxed and was not a problem from that day on. Went from wobbling round being led to trotting round school on my own in that one session and was hacking and being a star three days after that. Did revert a bit once owner back on and was very tense and unhappy again and again after 5 to 6 days of this I was starting to think they weren't going to work as a partnership but again she all of  sudden decided it was ok and was fine for owner thereafter. Shortly after that she went home and owner was riding on her own in paddock in all paces and hacking out with just a walker on ground. I would give yours the time the pro's obviously know what they're doing and pushing him before ready would  be counterproductive but once he decides it's ok I think he'll be very quickly back to how he was at breeders I don't think you'll need to essentially re-break him which is  I appreciate how it probably feels at the moment. I also agree with you there's no way in hell I would have attempted hacking this one when walking a circle in the school was still an issue. Not fair on other road users or safe for rider.
		
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Thanks! That does! Honestly it would have been madness to just jump on him and take him out within a few days he would have been a quivering wreck. His whole world has clearly been drastically (for him) rocked and I don’t think widening it too quickly too soon is the right way to go. I’m sure some may think we should have given him a week or so of doing nothing, but I actually think the quiet consistent work has been really good to build his confidence and get him into a settled routine. He’s done “something” every day even if only for 20 mins. 

I suspect he will be properly under saddle during this coming week, I was due to take him home a week today and need to decide whether to then do that or leave him where he is for a bit longer but I’m leaning towards taking him home as planned and then I can really focus on the long reining out solo (we have a big field that’s a good 45 min route to do the entire way around) hacking in company etc to begin with and carry on from there.


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## Millie-Rose (15 March 2020)

Sounds like a plan I think I'd take him home and just take it steadily and move on a step when he feels ready. It's not like you haven't dealt with young ones before so trust your instincts. One of this mares issues was standing to be mounted owner suggested that her sister would have tied her to a strong fence then just got on, I can just imagine how that would have ended!


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## ownedbyaconnie (16 March 2020)

The sassy “I’m bored and want to get back to moving” pawing must be a connie thing. It also comes out when I am 0.0003 seconds late with dinner. 

This thread is making me want another connie, yours are gorgeous. Although I am a glutton for punishment and love greys.


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## Chippers1 (16 March 2020)

That naughty pony eye is just like my old 13hh pony's! He'd just give you this look when he knew he'd done something naughty  I had him until he was 25 and he never lost that look so good luck with him


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## Michen (16 March 2020)

Chippers1 said:



			That naughty pony eye is just like my old 13hh pony's! He'd just give you this look when he knew he'd done something naughty  I had him until he was 25 and he never lost that look so good luck with him 

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Hehe, Bog doesn't really have a naughty pony look... His eyes are always just bright and sort of "bring it on", not cheeky as such..

Definitely going to bring Bear home on Sunday, can't wait, trying to find Boggle's wardrobe to make sure they are both matching.....


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## CanteringCarrot (16 March 2020)

I have a P.R.E. with a very similar personality. I've gotten better at being about to tell his true nerves apart from his jokes - I cannot tell you the number of times I've rolled my eyes at this horse and carried on. Drama Queen...and a smart one.
I made the mistake of getting on him too quickly when he came from Spain. I think he either hid his nerves well at the time, or I wasn't attentive enough to them. So I can definitely respect you taking your time with this one. I had to take a week or two and do some "reassurance" training, but in the end we both came out alright!

I like a good pony, and there is a Connemara at the yard used for lessons with children, and I've seen her get a bit cheeky! Even on the ground. I laugh a bit on the inside because I know it is the true pony way!  In my experience, I've found them to be bold yet quirky. I wouldn't turn down a handsome Connemara on my doorstep, that's for sure! Best of luck with Bear!


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## Michen (16 March 2020)

Help... Boggle genuinely needs a stable sheet for when it warms up a bit. Obviously can't buy him one without buying Bear a matchy one. Help me justify that spending £160 quid on stable sheets is totally necessary!!!!!!


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## Roxylola (16 March 2020)

That looks like a really nice quality sheet Michen - honestly I think you need 4 one each, and one each spare for when they are in the wash...


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## ElleSkywalker (16 March 2020)

OMG that sheet is beautiful 😍 Think how much they will wear them,  in summer, under thicker rugs in winter as easier to wash, travelling, photoshoots.......

*Elle, queen of matchification and buyer/breeder of ponies all the same size so never feels guilty about buying stuff 😁


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## Michen (16 March 2020)

Roxylola said:



			That looks like a really nice quality sheet Michen - honestly I think you need 4 one each, and one each spare for when they are in the wash...
		
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Thank you yes.. I think you are right!!!


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## Michen (16 March 2020)

ElleSkywalker said:



			OMG that sheet is beautiful 😍 Think how much they will wear them,  in summer, under thicker rugs in winter as easier to wash, travelling, photoshoots.......

*Elle, queen of matchification and buyer/breeder of ponies all the same size so never feels guilty about buying stuff 😁
		
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Although the missing point here is that I am NOT SUPPOSED TO HAVE TWO HORSES IN LIVERY AT ANY TIME BAR FOR THE NEXT 8 WEEKS. So in theory it should be POINTLESS that they match. Because I am not meant to have two horses long term in the same location as when Bog comes back Bear should be going.


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## ElleSkywalker (16 March 2020)

Yea but for the next 8 weeks they will look ace matching away 😁


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## Roxylola (16 March 2020)

Well, Bear will need a smart wardrobe and it would be wrong to expect Boggle to lend him clothes - how would that make poor Bog feel, and Bear would feel very insecure not having anything of his own


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## be positive (16 March 2020)

Michen said:



			Although the missing point here is that I am NOT SUPPOSED TO HAVE TWO HORSES IN LIVERY AT ANY TIME BAR FOR THE NEXT 8 WEEKS. So in theory it should be POINTLESS that they match. Because I am not meant to have two horses long term in the same location as when Bog comes back Bear should be going.
		
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Where is Bear going??


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## Michen (16 March 2020)

be positive said:



			Where is Bear going??
		
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Well he should be being sold or loaned out next year when Boggle comes back!!!


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## ElleSkywalker (16 March 2020)

be positive said:



			Where is Bear going??
		
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My house 😁


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## milliepops (16 March 2020)

ElleSkywalker said:



			My house 😁
		
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In that case you ought to be putting in an order with Michen for the rug of your choice, not one to match Boggle


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## be positive (16 March 2020)

Michen said:



			Well he should be being sold or loaned out next year when Boggle comes back!!!
		
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Should be as if that will happen once he gets his hooves settled in and several smart rugs, although it looks as if you will have a queue for him.


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## Michen (16 March 2020)

be positive said:



			Should be as if that will happen once he gets his hooves settled in and several smart rugs, although it looks as if you will have a queue for him.
		
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Hmmm, well Boggle is looking forward to spending some time with his Aunt A


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## be positive (16 March 2020)

Michen said:



			Hmmm, well Boggle is looking forward to spending some time with his Aunt A 

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It should be all systems go, today I am picking up the paperwork we have been waiting so long for which means the move is getting closer at last.


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## Michen (16 March 2020)

be positive said:



			It should be all systems go, today I am picking up the paperwork we have been waiting so long for which means the move is getting closer at last.
		
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Thank god! I will let Boggle know. X


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## Michen (16 March 2020)

Bear going sweetly under saddle in walk and trot in the school today (bo videos sorry). He really wishes I’d leave him alone in the evening but instead I decided to do more desensitising. Fat little meat head showing his annoyance at having no attention...


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## Mule (16 March 2020)

Michen said:



			Fat little meat head showing his annoyance at having no attention...





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🤣


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## DabDab (16 March 2020)

Hahaha, he sounds so like my connie it's slightly scary. She does the whole 'ah it's scary, oh no it's fine, why are we standing, you must want me to brandish a leg, no don't scratch me there, scratch me here, I shall brandish a leg to show you...'

Oh, and the rug is fabulous btw


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## Michen (16 March 2020)

DabDab said:



			Hahaha, he sounds so like my connie it's slightly scary. She does the whole 'ah it's scary, oh no it's fine, why are we standing, you must want me to brandish a leg, no don't scratch me there, scratch me here, I shall brandish a leg to show you...'

Oh, and the rug is fabulous btw
		
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So funny!! I’m enjoying getting to know “another type” of horse. I don’t think Boggle has ever really truly scared of anything in his life (other than, arguably, travelling).

Does yours feel the need to shove her muzzle in your face as soon as your within reaching distance..


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## Michen (16 March 2020)

Also can you believe that that was this!? Just goes to show what a bit of de fuzzing can achieve.


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## Lindylouanne (16 March 2020)

Bear and DP could be brothers temperament and attitude wise.

Michen please be prepared for lots of opinions and arguing. It can get very tiring after a while 😂


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## DabDab (16 March 2020)

Michen said:



			So funny!! I’m enjoying getting to know “another type” of horse. I don’t think Boggle has ever really truly scared of anything in his life (other than, arguably, travelling).

Does yours feel the need to shove her muzzle in your face as soon as your within reaching distance..
		
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Oh yes...she's the cuddliest little horse I've ever met. And she loves zips and velcro so you are always liable to have your coat or gloves undone 😁


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## palo1 (16 March 2020)

Michen said:



			Also can you believe that that was this!? Just goes to show what a bit of de fuzzing can achieve.

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He looks very sleek and smart...perhaps I should try that on my yak, oops Welshie...!!


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## SatansLittleHelper (17 March 2020)

Michen said:



			Well he should be being sold or loaned out next year when Boggle comes back!!!
		
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Hahahahahahahaha, you're hilarious 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂


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## Michen (19 March 2020)

Animals are such great levellers. This guy doesn’t care about Covid 19, all he cares about is that I adhere to his routine. Every time I get a wave of panic about job future etc I just need five mins in his company to remind me of a bigger picture. Anyway, a few things have changed and I’m picking Bear up to bring him home today earlier than planned. I hope he doesn’t mind his pen set up (no stable free at the moment) in the hay barn, and I really hope Boggle knows that he is my absolute number one and doesn’t feel too put out.

Also on another note I’ve become weirdly OCD about Bog, I’m a pretty slap dash get the job done sort of person but I get really annoyed if I can’t level his banks correctly, am frantically scrubbing every bucket within an inch of its life. Boggle is fully groomed twice a day and is seriously fed up with constant mane and tail conditioner spray. I can’t leave the yard without having hoof oiled his feet and I don’t even believe in the use of hoof oil. Hopefully Bear arriving will make me less Boggle obsessive 😂 pics of Bear when I get him home later today!!!


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## be positive (19 March 2020)

Are you sure you don't have a weird version of CV-19 one that suddenly makes you polish your pony

Good idea to bring Bear back early and hope he will settle, if he doesn't is swapping them an option? a mirror might help if he is alone.


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## Michen (19 March 2020)

be positive said:



			Are you sure you don't have a weird version of CV-19 one that suddenly makes you polish your pony

Good idea to bring Bear back early and hope he will settle, if he doesn't is swapping them an option? a mirror might help if he is alone.
		
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Hahaha I bet you are very shocked!! I don’t know what’s got into me. It’s obviously partly guilt as hate for Boggle to not feel adored but he doesn’t know if I scrub buckets or not!

He can see a couple of other horses about 25 metres (maybe less actually..about half the length of a school!) ish away from one side of his pen, but just isn’t in the barn with them. The pen is too big for Bog really as it’s been built for another horse recovering from KS surgery whose in it during the day as a in between before turnout option, it’s probably the size of 4 stables.

I’ve got a mirror too ready if he needs it!


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## Michen (19 March 2020)

I feel like my oh so cold heart just expanded 🙈 Bear loaded perfectly, stepped off the lorry and let out a little whinny, relaxed his eye and from then on didn’t look tense for one single moment. He went into his pen (after meeting Boggle) happy as anything and is totally chilled. Yard told me I need to be his best friend and challenge myself to do that, am so glad I made the effort to see him almost daily since he arrived as I really think he will be fine with the move now. Sound up to hear Boggle screeching, excuse my horrid voice!!!!

Boggle has been violently pawing his matts when we had Bear tied up against the back wall to fuss over him 🙈 he’s not impressed!! So delighted Bear is relaxed and hasn’t gone back to a being a nervous wreck.

How lucky am I to have two gorgeous bay connies!!!!!!


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## Roxylola (19 March 2020)

Oh Michen I love his new lodgings that's super, he looks really happy and chilled.


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## ElleSkywalker (19 March 2020)

OMG 🥰🥰🥰🥰 Best Bros already 😁😁🥰


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## Bernster (19 March 2020)

Aww how cute. Looks like they have clicked already. Both gorgeous but you can see how much stockier bear is in that first pic.


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## J&S (19 March 2020)

What a lovely pair!  Bear's pen look ideal, he can move around freely and see all around him.


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## Rosemary28 (19 March 2020)

Oh lovely!


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## horselib (19 March 2020)

Michen said:



			I feel like my oh so cold heart just expanded 🙈 Bear loaded perfectly, stepped off the lorry and let out a little whinny, relaxed his eye and from then on didn’t look tense for one single moment. He went into his pen (after meeting Boggle) happy as anything and is totally chilled. Yard told me I need to be his best friend and challenge myself to do that, am so glad I made the effort to see him almost daily since he arrived as I really think he will be fine with the move now. Sound up to hear Boggle screeching, excuse my horrid voice!!!!

Boggle has been violently pawing his matts when we had Bear tied up against the back wall to fuss over him 🙈 he’s not impressed!! So delighted Bear is relaxed and hasn’t gone back to a being a nervous wreck.

How lucky am I to have two gorgeous bay connies!!!!!!







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A friends horse sadly broke a leg putting her foot through a gate being used to make a stable over night  so would be safer with gate border over or rubber matting fixed it if used when no one there.


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## Michen (19 March 2020)

horselib said:



			A friends horse sadly broke a leg putting her foot through a gate being used to make a stable over night  so would be safer with gate border over or rubber matting fixed it if used when no one there.
		
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It’s actually cattle penning. Unfortunately it is what it is. I have assessed it and am happy with the risk, the slats are actually very wide. May not be perfect but best option for now.


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## Michen (19 March 2020)

Just making sure you are ok in there bro....


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## Errin Paddywack (19 March 2020)

They look exactly the same colour, gorgeous.


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## Michen (19 March 2020)

Errin Paddywack said:



			They look exactly the same colour, gorgeous.
		
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Bog is further ahead with his clipped coat so he’s pretty ginger at the moment! Think they will end up the same though.

I cannot believe the annoyance from Boggle, I don’t believe horses feel jealousy but he definitely was confused and upset as to why I was not engaging with him and grooming another horse at the tie up ring opposite his stable. He spent the entire time pawing and giving his door the odd annoyed bang. Guess he’s used to being “the one” whenever I’m around, am always engaging with him directly.

Wont do him any harm


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## Jeni the dragon (19 March 2020)

He looks great! So pleased he seems to have settled in so well!


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## RHM (19 March 2020)

Oh they are the cutest 😍 I am just living vicariously through this thread at the moment!


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## Michen (19 March 2020)

I’m really relieved Bear seems so happy. Genuinely thought we’d go back to square one. He’s so bloody cute he definitely takes comfort from having his “person”.

Love him can’t wait to get on board myself!


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## splashgirl45 (19 March 2020)

lovely boys  ,  bear looks very calm


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## Michen (19 March 2020)

RHM said:



			Oh they are the cutest 😍 I am just living vicariously through this thread at the moment!
		
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It was nice to take an afternoon off work and forget about CV for a few hours. Until I checked my work phone of course!


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## JJS (19 March 2020)

Michen said:



			I cannot believe the annoyance from Boggle, I don’t believe horses feel jealousy but he definitely was confused and upset as to why I was not engaging with him and grooming another horse at the tie up ring opposite his stable. He spent the entire time pawing and giving his door the odd annoyed bang. Guess he’s used to being “the one” whenever I’m around, am always engaging with him directly.
		
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Whether you call it resource guarding or jealousy, they certainly feel something. My girls are the sweetest things, but they do get in a huff if I give another horse attention when they're around. They go stalking off when they're usually my shadows, and even carrots can't entice them back after that!


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## Michen (20 March 2020)

Eeeek Bear whinnying for me and only me this morning every time I was passing his pen!! Beyond cute. And a very good boy for his first “hack”. Now in the field stuffing his face!


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## Roxylola (20 March 2020)

When I worked at the riding school I had my horse there as a working livery, The outdoor was in the middle of the yard and for the first few weeks if I taught in it he would stand watching and just quietly nickering at me.  He just didn't understand why I was there and not with him.  Bear is looking super, think he's going to be a real sweetheart


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## ycbm (20 March 2020)

Michen said:



			I cannot believe the annoyance from Boggle, *I don’t believe horses feel jealousy* but he definitely was confused and upset as to why I was not engaging with him and grooming another horse at the tie up ring opposite his stable. He spent the entire time pawing and giving his door the odd annoyed bang. Guess he’s used to being “the one” whenever I’m around, am always engaging with him directly.

Wont do him any harm
		
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I think the rest of your post says they certainly do!


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## Pinkvboots (20 March 2020)

Michen said:



			Bog is further ahead with his clipped coat so he’s pretty ginger at the moment! Think they will end up the same though.

I cannot believe the annoyance from Boggle, I don’t believe horses feel jealousy but he definitely was confused and upset as to why I was not engaging with him and grooming another horse at the tie up ring opposite his stable. He spent the entire time pawing and giving his door the odd annoyed bang. Guess he’s used to being “the one” whenever I’m around, am always engaging with him directly.

Wont do him any harm 

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If I am in one of my stables with 1 horse the other one will always have his head out intently trying to see what we are doing, they scream when the other one is being ridden, I only have my 2 here at home so they are very close but not annoyingly clingy thank God!


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## be positive (20 March 2020)

ycbm said:



			I think the rest of your post says they certainly do!
		
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They certainly know their person, having had numerous horses here, mine, liveries, short term for schooling etc they quickly learn who their own person is and expect attention, I have seen them looking completely puzzled if their owner comes to do something that does not involve them, the more engaged you are with your horse, not just DIY doing jobs but chatty, touching and generally being involved the more they give back so sharing you is going to be tough on Bog especially as he is not getting any time out, he may make the walks more interesting if he feels you are not spending enough time with him.


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## Michen (20 March 2020)

be positive said:



			They certainly know their person, having had numerous horses here, mine, liveries, short term for schooling etc they quickly learn who their own person is and expect attention, I have seen them looking completely puzzled if their owner comes to do something that does not involve them, the more engaged you are with your horse, not just DIY doing jobs but chatty, touching and generally being involved the more they give back so sharing you is going to be tough on Bog especially as he is not getting any time out, he may make the walks more interesting if he feels you are not spending enough time with him.
		
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It's going to be really tough on him, he was pawing like mad again this morning even though I made sure he was walked, groomed and fussed first, sadly for Bog the tie up place is right opposite his stable so talk about rubbing it in!!

Bog is very much a one person horse, he flattens his ears and shows his teeth to people who walk past his stable (but flicks them forwards as soon as they actually approach!). Never ever to me (or A for that matter). He knows who his "crew" are!

Seems like Bear is the same but in more of a sweet "I need youuuuu" kind of way. Bog is more of an " I own you"...


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## eggs (20 March 2020)

Michen said:



			Bog is further ahead with his clipped coat so he’s pretty ginger at the moment! Think they will end up the same though.

I cannot believe the annoyance from Boggle, I don’t believe horses feel jealousy but he definitely was confused and upset as to why I was not engaging with him and grooming another horse at the tie up ring opposite his stable. He spent the entire time pawing and giving his door the odd annoyed bang. Guess he’s used to being “the one” whenever I’m around, am always engaging with him directly.

Wont do him any harm 

Click to expand...

I had a homebred foal (A) and bought another foal (Z) as a companion for him.  When they got older if Alf was in his stable (they are 18' deep) and I took Zinks out of his stable to groom him or whatever Alf would back up to the far wall of his stable and then canter up to the door where he would buck and squeal.  He didn't mind so much if I took a another horse out but would stand at his door yelling at me.


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## Tarragon (20 March 2020)

It does make me smile that your definition of a "project pony" is possibly most people's definition of practically finished


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## ihatework (20 March 2020)

eggs said:



			I had a homebred foal (A) and bought another foal (Z) as a companion for him.  When they got older if Alf was in his stable (they are 18' deep) and I took Zinks out of his stable to groom him or whatever Alf would back up to the far wall of his stable and then canter up to the door where he would buck and squeal.  He didn't mind so much if I took a another horse out but would stand at his door yelling at me.
		
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Yes my old eventer was really one of the easiest horses to have around. I bought a 2yo as his future replacement and at one point, for a period of 12 months or so there was an overlap where both were stabled together and in work.

My old horse was furious if I gave the young one any attention. If in the stable he kicked holes in the back wall. If I tied him up outside he put holes in the front wall. I ended up having to leave the older one out in the field out of sight to do anything with the young one. Complete spoilt brat.


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## Annagain (20 March 2020)

If I get Mont out of the field, Arch has to come too. He's perfectly happy to leave M in the field so it's not M he wants, it's me! If I make a bit of a fuss of him and then put him while I carry on with M back he's happy but if I try to leave him he calls the whole time. M doesn't care either way - he's very easy and tolerant of any fussing but he's very aloof.


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## Michen (20 March 2020)

Mine!? How can Bear be considered finished by anyone 😂🙈


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## Michen (20 March 2020)

Please someone tell me if these updates are boring as hell, its sort of keeping me motivated but I do appreciate hearing daily about Boggle and Bear is probably only interesting for me!!

Anyway Boggle had a scan today and laser treatment. The vet was really, really pleased with the scan as there is definite healing activity and "filling in" which shows the PRP iIs doing it's job. He said he was expecting to see no change.  I can't help but feel a bit sad though, I love my vet because he is always straight and realistic with me. I know he doesn't want to get my hopes up, but we were just discussing the future and he reminded me these injuries below the fetlock really are tricky and even if we have excellent scans in a few months time the proof will be when he is back in full work and whether we managed to truly get rid of the painful "tweak" for good. He just seems very cautious, rightly so.

Trying to stay optimistic!

Bear got five mins in Boggle's stable (whilst poor Boggle was doped and tied up outside, couldn't even show his displeasure), for a vet check and jab. He is so funny, when being asked to vacate he just says "no thank you". There was a pile of haylage in the corner and like hell is the little porker getting any of that- he does nothing but eat! He did the same coming in and out of field as has to walk through a flood. Just plants with this look of nah, maybe a bit later... no thanks...

Doesn't take much to get him moving (the end of the lead rope was enough for the field thing), and it shouldn't make me laugh... but sort of does given he was a quivering wreck not long ago.

Cheeky git.


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## ihatework (20 March 2020)

It would make me laugh too, he’s cheeky and intelligent. I like those types. But you need to watch it as it could filter into other bits of his training, I would quietly stamp on it


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## Michen (20 March 2020)

ihatework said:



			It would make me laugh too, he’s cheeky and intelligent. I like those types. But you need to watch it as it could filter into other bits of his training, I would quietly stamp on it
		
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Oh I completely agree, it’s going to need some training out. Which is why he got a lead rope to his arse when he didn’t want to walk through from the field. The last thing I want is a planting twit! He’s confident enough now that he can handle a bit of firmness whereas a week ago he’d have sunk to the ground.


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## splashgirl45 (20 March 2020)

i like reading the updates and the videos, please keep them coming to cheer us all up ..


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## ycbm (20 March 2020)

Michen said:



			Please someone tell me if these updates are boring as hell, its sort of keeping me motivated but I do appreciate hearing daily about Boggle and Bear is probably only interesting for me!!
		
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Don't be so daft 🤣


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## xDundryx (20 March 2020)

I'm living life through your updates currently in home prison or 14 days with a cough and temp 😬 no pony time and rapidly hammering my credit card and wifi 😂


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## Tarragon (20 March 2020)

I love these updates too - don't stop


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## Jeni the dragon (20 March 2020)

I'm loving these updates too! The boys are both so handsome it's lovely to hear how things are going with them!


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## J&S (20 March 2020)

Keep going!  We want to see you riding him. x


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## Michen (20 March 2020)

Bog really is a tit. Thought it would be nice he can have some social interaction with another horse, let alone his brother. All he does is terrorise poor sweet Bear, here he is holding his forelock in his mouth 🙈

Giving me a laugh in dark times anyway I could watch them all day😂


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## McFluff (20 March 2020)

Haha definitely keep going. It’s a great distraction. Thanks for sharing.


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## Evie91 (20 March 2020)

Brilliant, friendly chaps aren’t they! Might be lots of ripped rugs when they’re turned out together, look like typical playful geldings!


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## Evie91 (20 March 2020)

Think Bear’s pen looks fab, roomier than a lot of stables!


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## Michen (20 March 2020)

Evie91 said:



			Brilliant, friendly chaps aren’t they! Might be lots of ripped rugs when they’re turned out together, look like typical playful geldings!
		
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I have never managed to successfully turn Bog out with anyone. He’s just an absolute menace and not suited to pairs or threes, needs a big herd to run with which he will get this year! He was cut late and is just.. Boggle 🙈 I hate individual turnout but have had to resign myself to it with him. Might try with with Bear though. Last attempt was last summer, maybe two years or so later he will have mellowed further


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## Evie91 (20 March 2020)

He might have finally found a friend


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## SatansLittleHelper (20 March 2020)

Loving the updates too.
Boggles is such a diva 😂😂😂❤❤❤


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## Bernster (21 March 2020)

I was going to say, less squealing this time, then bog did a big un.  Cute interaction,


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## Michen (21 March 2020)

Guess we like cows then..


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## Trouper (21 March 2020)

BogBear - love it!!


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## southerncomfort (21 March 2020)

Looks like the start of a beautiful bromance!


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## Michen (22 March 2020)

Well I’ve got on board! Gently and quietly in the school. Had originally planned to do that then hack out with company but was clear we’ve got to go back a bunch of steps first. It didn’t start well as I went to get him in the field. Originally he didn’t want to catch, then came trotting up all of a sudden to let me get him. Then out of no where, three separate times pulled back and p***** off across the field. I think it is a mixture of a) not wanting to walk through the flood he has to go to get in and out of field although he was perfect with it on long reins yesterday and quick when turning out this am to make the decision to go in and b) napping to his new mare friend.

I’m not sure what to make of him really, got on with a helper as needed it for mounting block and general reassurance for him, he’s still a bit flinchy and nervy if you do anything too quick but his eye is so quick to then soften it’s just a little odd. Did it in stages again as if he was barely backed. Wobbly being led around then picked up confidence and felt fine.he has a huge loose swingy walk! Walking around on our own nicely, relaxed etc. Until.. he did a poo and scared the hell out of himself!!! I assume from it dropping on the floor, he clamped his tail and shot off at a rapid canter and I have to say I did wonder whether it was going to become full on and escalate. Managed to pull him up after about half the long side of the school and then half of a 20 m circle...

Hmmmm. His head was way up in the air so the bit was doing sod all and he is immensely strong. I didn’t have a martingale on as I’m not keen on using them on youngsters but perhaps in this case..

I have to say, and I’ll be honest as this thread should be that and not just “oh isn’t he so cute”, I don’t like this go to default of his when he doesn’t like something. I really hope it would never escalate into something worse so I’m going to have to be very very careful that I don’t put myself in that situation. He really is going to be a project, and that’s fine- I hope he will be worth it- I’ll just need to get it right and build his confidence up bit by bit. I was really pleased with how he reacted to things out on the long reins yesterday, he saw a fair bit of “life” and his reactions when he was unsure was to pause, assess and then make the (correct every time) decision to carefully continue even if it worried him a bit with very little needed from me  So I am taking the positives from that and hope I can up the ridden confidence to match the long reining.

Any thoughts or bright ideas gratefully received.  Re the catching and pulling away he will be bridle and lunge line lead from now on, I don’t want to risk him learning that behaviour I’m annoyed it happened at all today. My plan for the next week or so is continue a mix of gentle riding in school (lots of work getting on and off with mounting block, desensitising etc combined with long reining him out on hacks.

he is going to be every bit as challenging as Bog, in a different way I think!


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## SpringArising (22 March 2020)

If he were mine I'd stop treating him like a nervous baby and start treating him like a horse who needs REALLY consistent boundaries. He's already doing little things here and there because he knows he can get away with it. I wouldn't even let him eat grass when you long line him. When he's working he should be in work mode - it'll make him feel like he has a job to do which will settle him. Do you want him to snatch at grass when you ride him? If no then I'd start as you mean to go on. If my horse has a bit in his mouth that means he's working and not eating.

I often find the more you treat them like a scared little goose the more they act like one.

Being bossy with horses doesn't come naturally to me (well, with my own it doesn't because they're MY babies ) but I think especially with Connies they need to know from day dot they can't get away with anything.

I'd also spend some time teaching him to get himself to the mounting block for you - have a look at Richard Maxwell's video:


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## Pinkvboots (22 March 2020)

I really wouldn't worry about the fact his nervous response when ridden is to run, it's so early days.

I backed my Arab my self many years ago he was very much the same in the first few months, he would do the wall of death round the school in response to things that worried him, I can honestly say he only really properly took off 3 times and I could pin point what triggered it every time, once he was riding out hacking alone and working in the school happily he never did it again, he still spooks and he will surge off sometimes but it's literally a few quick strides and he stops.


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## Michen (22 March 2020)

SA, I am the least washy person when it comes to horses. Honestly- I’m not a total numpty going there there Bear have some grass and please be a good boy.  But there is no point in not treating him carefully with the ridden stuff (I am not referring to the long reining I don’t think there’s any issue with it frankly for a quick second- he was foot perfect the entire time and I needed to take off a jacket and put off it around my waste, So also took a quick video and then got back to it. Doing so is not an issue IMO and I’m glad he was relaxed enough to chill out for a minute whilst I faffed).

If I had simply swung a leg over today and cracked on I can’t guarantee there wouldn’t have been a meltdown and I’ve no way at the moment of knowing how far that would go.  That’s the last thing I want.

He IS cheeky and needs boundaries I completely agree particularly with basics on the ground. However I can’t fault him for positive learning too. Day one he napped massively on long reins about the flood. He got a fairly decent whack forward with the long reins and day two went straight in when in his work environment- he learns, and quickly. That will work both ways- hence why a bridle will now be used to ensure no repeat of bringing in today.  But equally he is also still nervous in certain situations. It would do more harm to do too much too soon than the other way around. He’s just moved house (again), his world has changed (again) and I genuinely do think I have to approach him with some sensitivity in certain situations.

I do not think he’s “taking the piss” with his nerves re ridden when they appear, though there is plenty that does need firm handling In other areas.

As I said, he will absolutely be learning re mounting block. That’s what most of today ended up being about.



Pinkvboots said:



			I really wouldn't worry about the fact his nervous response when ridden is to run, it's so early days.

I backed my Arab my self many years ago he was very much the same in the first few months, he would do the wall of death round the school in response to things that worried him, I can honestly say he only really properly took off 3 times and I could pin point what triggered it every time, once he was riding out hacking alone and working in the school happily he never did it again, he still spooks and he will surge off sometimes but it's literally a few quick strides and he stops.
		
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Helpful thank you! Fingers crossed.


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## DabDab (22 March 2020)

Like PvB I wouldn't be overly concerned, I'm sure he'll settle. Pebbles (my connie) was one hell of a flight risk when I first had her, but these days she's rock solid, I can't remember the last time I saw her spook at anything. And the singular naughty thing Arty has ever done under saddle was fire off about a month in. I jumped off and one rein stopped her in the process just short of the fence that I am pretty sure she would have crashed into. She's never shot off like that since.


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## TPO (22 March 2020)

I think (disclaimer: my opinion is just that, my opinion and I wouldn't attach much value to it) you need to stop and go back to work on all the gaps.

The pulling back and refusing to lead was always going to get to where it's at. That needs to be addressed.

A horse that isnt 100% to lead, move over and respond to the handler is one that either doesn't understand pressure or doesn't respect it. That's not a horse I'd be getting on board.

Then to have caught a horse that's "on one" I'd have adjusted the plan and worked on what needed worked on and/or got some "easy" wins to put pebbles in the confidence jar.

To carry on with an original plan when all the ducks arent in a row ends up how things ended up. Hence the going back and building on a solid foundation.

I'm pretty much just going to regurgitate what I've learnt from others and/or the hard way with my own trial and (many, many) errors.

The current thoughts from a trainer (Warwick Schiller) that are resonating with me are:

Don't ask the question before you've given them the answer

Donkey Kong concept (video games): when you hit a bump it's back to the very start and start over from scratch

Create a tool before you use a tool


To teach a horse to lead to I'd use a rope halter and 12ft line (lead ropes too short and lunge lines too long). Then do circle work to get him responding and yielding to pressure. It's worked for me teaching leading and for horses that have always been pulled/dragged along and used planting ad an evasion.

Any attempt by me to describe it would probably miss the mark but Richard Maxwell does it very well. He has a video library online so I'm sure there will be videos of this as it's the start point for everything that he does.

I also highly recommend three of his books:
Training Your Young Horse
Maximise Your Horsemanship
Unlock Your Horse's Talent in 20mins a Day

Specifically in Maximise Your Horsemanship there are pyramids showing building blocks alongside checklists that would be helpful.

I can't remember exactly if the following is in Max's books but I'm sure that it is and that's yielding their head to pressure. Working to make the horse flex to the lightest of pressure so that, on the ground, the horse will being his nose around to shoulder in each side and down to touch chest (as a yield/flex not rolkur). Once a horse responds to that on the ground it is used as a "check" as soon as you are on board. Kind of like checking your mirrors etc when you get into a new car.

Once you have that bend you have "bend to a stop"/one rein stop which would prevent/stop quickly what happened today. WS refers to it as "bending for relaxation" (S2 episode 9- randomly just came on right now).

Going off on a tangent but having seen him in person I was not a fan of Warwick Schiller. For possibly a multitude of reasons WS changed his ways of working and training processes and I find his new ways much more agreeable (this is my personal opinion only).

He has a website and there is quite a lot of information on it that I think is very useful. There is also a poster of his Principles of Training that include those I mentioned above. I find that they resonate for horse training.

WS has a subscription service for his training videos but there are also lots of videos on youtube and on H&C tv (via amazon prime). Personally having some sort of checklist so that I know all bases are covered before moving on is helpful.

I recorded the WS Principles of Training before H&C left Sky (started recording last August 😬) and I'm binge watching them before my Sky package cancels at the end of the month. There is a LOT of good stuff in them (no one more surprised than me as I was determined not to like him after what I saw in the flesh but everyone is allowed to learn and change).

Maybe reading some Mark Rashid might help too as via his stories he helps the reader see things from the horse's POV and that might help with why Bear does what he does and why he reacts in certain ways.

So in summary I'd go back to the very beginning and make sure I'm building on a solid foundation.

Anything that pops up gets dealt with there and then and not allowed to escalate. It's often that when something seemingly unrelated is worked on it fixes a lot of other things.


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## Michen (22 March 2020)

Thanks for the video. Interesting though, as essentially teaching the horse to move in to the pressure rather than away? Feels a bit opposite..


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## TPO (22 March 2020)

Michen said:



			Thanks for the video. Interesting though, as essentially teaching the horse to move in to the pressure rather than away? Feels a bit opposite..
		
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It's not so much moving into pressure as doing what it takes to stop the "irritant"(tapping whip/clicking etc). Horse learns the response that X stops when they step over. It's the old "make the right thing easy".


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## Michen (22 March 2020)

TPO said:



			I think (disclaimer: my opinion is just that, my opinion and I woulsnt attach much value to it) you need to stop and go back to work on all the gaps.

The pulling back and refusing to lead was always going to get to where it's at. That needs to be addressed.

A horse that isnt 100% to lead, move over and respond to the handler is one that either doesn't understand pressure or doesn't respect it. That's not a horse I'd be getting on board.

Then to have caught a horse that's "on one" I'd have adjusted the plan and worked in what needed worked on and/or got some "easy" wins to put pebbles in the confidence jar.

To carry on with an original plan when all the ducks arent in a row ends up how things ended up. Hence the going back and building on a solid foundation.

I'm pretty much just going to regurgitate what I've learnt from others and/or the hard way with my own trial and (many, many) errors.

The current thoughts from a trainer (Warwick Schiller) that are resonating with me are:

Don't ask the question before you've given them the answer

Donkey Kong concept (video games): when you hit a bump it's back to the very start and start over from scratch

Create a tool before you use a tool


To teach a horse to lead to I'd use a rope halter and 12ft line (lead ropes too short and lunge lines too long). Then do circle work to get him responding and yielding to pressure. It's worked for me teaching leading and for horses that have always been pulled/dragged along and used planting ad an evasion.

Any attempt by me to describe it would probably miss the mark but Richard Maxwell does it very well. He has a video library online so I'm sure there will be videos of this as it's the start point for everything that he does.

I also highly recommend three of his books:
Training Your Young Horse
Maximise Your Horsemanship
Unlock Your Horse's Talent in 20mins a Day

Specifically in Maximise Your Horsemanship there are ppyramids showing building blocks alongside checklists that would be helpful.

I can't remember exactly if the following is in Max's books but I'm sure that it is and that's yielding their head to pressure. Working to make the horse flex to the lightest of pressure so that, on the ground, the horse will being his nose around to shoulder in each side and down to touch chest (as a yield/flex not rolkur). Once a horse responds to that on the ground it is used as a "check" as soon as you are on board. Kind of like checking your mirrors etc when you get into a new car.

Once you have that bend you have "bend to a stop"/one rein stop which would prevent/stop quickly what happened today. WS refers to it as "bending for relaxation" (S2 episode 9- randomly just came on right now).

Going off on a tangent but having seen him in person I was not a fan of Warwick Schiller. For possibly a multitude of reasons WS changed his ways of working and training processes and in find his new ways much more agreeable (this is my personal opinion only).

He has a website and there is quite a lot of information on it that I think is very useful. There is also a poster of his Principles of Training that include those I mentioned above. I find that they resonate for horse training.

WS has a subscription service for his training videos but there are also lots of videos on youtube and on H&C tv (via amazon prime). Perosnally having some sort of checklist so that I know all bases are covered before moving on is helpful.

I recorded the WS Principles of Training before H&C left Sky (started recording last August 😬) and I'm binge watching them before my Sky package cancels at the end of the month. There is a LOT of good stuff in them (no one more surprised than me as I was determined not to like him after what I saw in the flesh but everyone is allowed to learn and change).

Maybe reading some Mark Rashid might help too as via his stories he helps the reader see things from the horse's POV and that might help with why Bear does what he does and why he reacts in certain ways.

So in summary I'd go back to the very beginning and make sure I'm building on a solid foundation.

Anything that pops up gets dealt with there and then and not allowed to escalate. It's often that when something seemingly unrelated is worked on it fixes a lot of other things.
		
Click to expand...

Thanks! I shall have a proper look. He’s super polite to move around you etc until he’s not, and it definitely needs addressing.

FYI I agree. It was the same principal with Boggle travelling


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## ihatework (22 March 2020)

I’m not going to write a long spiel about how to go about this because it’s almost impossible over the internet to fully understand what is going wrong without seeing the subtle things.

But I do have two words of advice

Standing martingale


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## Michen (22 March 2020)

ihatework said:



			I’m not going to write a long spiel about how to go about this because it’s almost impossible over the internet to fully understand what is going wrong without seeing the subtle things.

But I do have two words of advice

Standing martingale
		
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Thought about it. Have one.. worried it could cause a panic?


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## ihatework (22 March 2020)

Michen said:



			Thought about it. Have one.. worried it could cause a panic?
		
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What more than inverting and running into something? You are overthinking - it’s an essential bit of kit for newly broken horses IMO


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## SpringArising (22 March 2020)

FWIW, I don't think you're a numpty and I hope my post didn't come across like I was trying to offend you.

I was just trying to convey that there's been a few small things that have already escalated into bigger things - i.e the video that was taken of him not walking out the stable has now turned into him pulling back and pissing off in the field.


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## Michen (22 March 2020)

SpringArising said:



			FWIW, I don't think you're a numpty and I hope my post didn't come across like I was trying to offend you.

I was just trying to convey that there's been a few small things that have already escalated into bigger things - i.e the video that was taken of him not walking out the stable has now turned into him pulling back and pissing off in the field.
		
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I’m aware, hence the bridle etc now being deployed. I promise I’m not silly enough to not think it needs nipping in the bud- it’s early days- it’ll get squashed 😁 thanks for the advice! X


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## suebou (22 March 2020)

We always use a standing martingale on young/projects. Fairly long, but there’s no rein pressure, just the nose and it has saved many awkward ‘oh, I’ll throw my head up/about till you back off’ highly recommend one. He’s a fab looking boy, what fun you will have!


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## TPO (22 March 2020)

I would say that a horse has to know how to give to pressure before a standing martingale can be used safely.

No idea if this horse does or doesn't understand pressure & release but based solely on posts and photos he resists against it.

Meeting the end of a standing martingale without having the education (or respect) to deal with it could result in a messy panic.

I'd want to go back and work on basic foundations and the result of that is more than likely that a martingale would no longer be required.

Nothing against the martingale, it works, but to ask a question without having trained the answer could end badly especially if this horse is nervous and overreactive in certain situations


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## palo1 (22 March 2020)

If it is of any interest my young mare who arrived age rising 3 last year had no clue how to lead or tie up and would either plant or try to piss off  when being led away from others (of course - why wouldn't she?!).  The best tool we have and one we always use is a halter with a long (12 foot line).  If they get a little away from you, you still have rope and therefore time to correct them and you can get out of the immediate way if they start performing but without you losing contact.  I am sure you know and practice all this but the first lessons in hand we give our horses are about walking at our pace without any tension in the rope.  It doesn't matter how quickly or slowly you are going, where you are going or why, they MUST learn to halt when you halt and be polite.  I am stricter about this than almost anything else - I do think completely clear boundaries are the key.  I am sure that is all in place for Bear and he sounds completely normal but cheeky!! We have found good leading to be vital for many other early lessons. Tying up can be harder to correct if they have learnt to pull back. Again the trick is plenty of lead rope!  We have found that using a long rope not fixed to something but through a ring or other fixing with a person on the end is helpful.  This makes it safer if they 'wriggle' though I have had the horrible experience of tying up a youngster that we thought was fine only to really see them struggling.  In that case I thought I would have to cut the lead rope and that the horse would be injured but in fact that horse learnt a good lesson about being tied up. I would NOT recommend that however of course.  Not safe or pleasant for horse or owner   For years I had a horse that always felt he could get away - it really is one of the worst kinds of naughtiness!

You will move on from this stage sooooo quickly though!  Yesterday I was able to trot and canter my mare in hand very politely even though she found that really good fun and quite exciting.  She still remembered that she MUST stay with me even if 'playing'.  Bear is lovely but pony brains are deliciously cheeky.


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## Bellaboo18 (22 March 2020)

TPO said:



			I would say that a horse has to know how to give to pressure before a standing martingale can be used safely.

No idea if this horse does or doesn't understand pressure & release but based solely on posts and photos he resists against it.

Meeting the end of a standing martingale without having the education (or respect) to deal with it could result in a messy panic.

I'd want to go back and work on basic foundations and the result of that is more than likely that a martingale would no longer be required.

Nothing against the martingale, it works, but to ask a question without having trained the answer could end badly especially if this horse is nervous and overreactive in certain situations
		
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Completely agree, I would be wary of using a standing martingale at this point.


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## TPO (22 March 2020)

Michen said:



			I’m aware, hence the bridle etc now being deployed. I promise I’m not silly enough to not think it needs nipping in the bud- it’s early days- it’ll get squashed 😁 thanks for the advice! X
		
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Apparently I can't keep my opinions to myself today 😳

I wouldn't be quick to bridle because mouth.

I'd want to do the work that stopped the pulling back, let alone taking off, before just catching and putting a bridle on.

The circle work will also making catching easier because when you can move quarters just by pointing at them horse turns into you and learns to.stand (right thing easy). 

I had a horse who once took well over 5hrs to catch and there was one day she just got left out alone for over 15hrs because she wouldn't be caught and everyone else came in. Done one day of Richard Maxwell circle work and never had an issue again.


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## CanteringCarrot (22 March 2020)

You own my P.R.E. gelding in Connemara pony version. 

I've had this, erm, "quirky" guy for about 3 years now and while he is well behaved he is WEIRD. I never knew a horse could be hot, lazy, spooky, and curious all in the same moment. He's highly intelligent, and plays dumb, I swear! He's spooked at his own poo before, shadows... picked up a whip, dropped it, then spooked at it, I could go on! This is the same horse that acted like he'd never been mounted the first time I tried to ride him when he came from Spain (with basic training and some mileage on him). I had to treat him like an unbroken colt at first *eye roll* He's a cool cucumber about a lot of things that rattle other horses, oddly enough.

So it is a balance between rolling my eyes, ignoring, reassuring, and kicking his arse. He's taught me a lot and makes me use my head. I cannot muscle him around or use force, it is a mental game. Sometimes a who can outlast who. He gives up rather quickly most of the time (due to being lazy), but still has to give it a go once in awhile! Just to test. He never wins, so I don't get it. There are times when I do have to be harsh with him, and he takes it, because I think he knows its firm but fair.

This horse decided he only wanted to move backward one day. So I said ok, and we backed all the way around the school, twice. It was no longer his idea, therefore it was no longer fun and he gladly went forward. 

It's really an...art? of sorts as you have to be firm, set the boundaries, but not get them worked up and bothered in the process. I've had to do something thinking outside of the box. There are some that when it is time to work, it is time to spook...because that gets them out of work. Quick correction, ignore antics, move along. Remain calm...someone has to!

It's early days and you have your work cut out for you. I'd even be tempted to carry a dressage whip with me while leading. Encouragement if he doesn't walk forward with you. Don't be afraid to go back to basics. Grab a rope halter and longer lead as another poster mentioned. Do some basic yielding to pressure. Or teach things on the ground such as shoulder in or side pass. Get him thinking and begin taking control of his body and where his feet go.

I also did some clicker training with my guy, and he really caught on to that.

But there are some horses that you have to get on and just get crackin' - as in they cannot have a moment of down time because they begin plotting so they have to be moving forward and put to work. Once you establish a proper "I am the boss" relationship, he may change his tune. Mine was gelded late (Idk if that has an influence though) and is dominant, therefore my leadership skills have to be on point, otherwise he could challenge them.

Give it some time and work, and I think you'll come out fine.


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## Mule (22 March 2020)

You could use a running martingale. You don't have the panicking issue and they cop on not to get giraffe-like very quickly because of the bit pressure.


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## Michen (22 March 2020)

Well Bear would like to thank you all for ruining his Sunday evening.

so I did do plenty of leading and moving over work when he was at the schooling yard. He’s really responsive and will move over back forward yield to the lightest pressure. So when he didn’t go in the wash box the first time I did think fair enough, it smells weird looks weird and boggle lost his shit when he went in there after a lesson once.

armed with an easy loader as it’s the only pressure type thing I have atm, a sort of pulley that clips through the nose I went in hand in the school. Super polite as expected. I can have his nose on the floor through gentle pressure, he obviously gets it.

Until you up what you ask him. So backing up he on one occasion got a bit frustrated and that was the trigger, pulled back and tried to bugger off. Except this time I was fully prepared. He repeated this at least twice but failed each time. Didn’t try it again whatever pressure I put on him.

He learns so quick, I hope that may be the end of it but can’t take the chance, the bridle was for the yard to bring him in with whilst I get my hands on a pressure halter of some sort or continue with the easy loader. I’m pretty sure this can be nipped in the bud.

Did mounting block work at all he end too. Stands perfectly, including with me lying across him etc.

On the flip side I’m typing this as I in hand walk my hot buzzball Boggle.. whose doing a great job of being “ the grown up “ one


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## CanteringCarrot (22 March 2020)

A horse that learns quick is both a blessing and a curse


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## Michen (22 March 2020)

CanteringCarrot said:



			You own my P.R.E. gelding in Connemara pony version. 

I've had this, erm, "quirky" guy for about 3 years now and while he is well behaved he is WEIRD. I never knew a horse could be hot, lazy, spooky, and curious all in the same moment. He's highly intelligent, and plays dumb, I swear! He's spooked at his own poo before, shadows... picked up a whip, dropped it, then spooked at it, I could go on! This is the same horse that acted like he'd never been mounted the first time I tried to ride him when he came from Spain (with basic training and some mileage on him). I had to treat him like an unbroken colt at first *eye roll* He's a cool cucumber about a lot of things that rattle other horses, oddly enough.

So it is a balance between rolling my eyes, ignoring, reassuring, and kicking his arse. He's taught me a lot and makes me use my head. I cannot muscle him around or use force, it is a mental game. Sometimes a who can outlast who. He gives up rather quickly most of the time (due to being lazy), but still has to give it a go once in awhile! Just to test. He never wins, so I don't get it. There are times when I do have to be harsh with him, and he takes it, because I think he knows its firm but fair.

This horse decided he only wanted to move backward one day. So I said ok, and we backed all the way around the school, twice. It was no longer his idea, therefore it was no longer fun and he gladly went forward. 

It's really an...art? of sorts as you have to be firm, set the boundaries, but not get them worked up and bothered in the process. I've had to do something thinking outside of the box. There are some that when it is time to work, it is time to spook...because that gets them out of work. Quick correction, ignore antics, move along. Remain calm...someone has to!

It's early days and you have your work cut out for you. I'd even be tempted to carry a dressage whip with me while leading. Encouragement if he doesn't walk forward with you. Don't be afraid to go back to basics. Grab a rope halter and longer lead as another poster mentioned. Do some basic yielding to pressure. Or teach things on the ground such as shoulder in or side pass. Get him thinking and begin taking control of his body and where his feet go.

I also did some clicker training with my guy, and he really caught on to that.

But there are some horses that you have to get on and just get crackin' - as in they cannot have a moment of down time because they begin plotting so they have to be moving forward and put to work. Once you establish a proper "I am the boss" relationship, he may change his tune. Mine was gelded late (Idk if that has an influence though) and is dominant, therefore my leadership skills have to be on point, otherwise he could challenge them.

Give it some time and work, and I think you'll come out fine.
		
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Ha! This was super helpful thank you. I think you’ve hit the nail on the head.


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## Michen (23 March 2020)

Good Bear, remembered his mounting block lesson perfectly. No flinching and fine to get on and off just had a quiet potter around the school on my own. Praying he didn’t pop!! Felt much more comfortable today.


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## Trouper (23 March 2020)

Michen - how many thousands of thoughts have been racing through your mind about this boy since you first saw him?   You know why you bought him and why he travelled to you and what you are asking him to do now.  He is just a baby who is trying to figure out all the changes that have been happening - and although he seems very affectionate, deep down he does not know yet that he can absolutely trust you - so his thoughts must be whirling too.  I would always insist gently on good manners on the ground but I would work on the trust issue much more in these early days - even if it meant doing the same very basic things over and over again and not trying to progress his "work" too fast.  Don't know if you have seen any of James French's Trust Technique stuff but it is fascinating what can be achieved just by being close and quiet next to a horse.  He seems such a lovely boy from what you tell us of him so I am sure things will all come good - but you don't get these first days again so they are so precious.


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## Pinkvboots (23 March 2020)

I used a running martingale quite early on with my Arab as I felt his head would just get too high, and because he was young and didn't really understand a proper contact it became a handy thing to have, I still use them on both of mine and they are 15 and 16 especially on a hack I just feel more in control so why not.


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## KEK (23 March 2020)

Thank you for continuing to detail how it actually is, not just the "oh he's cute", it's so interesting, and very timely for me! I hope you keep going


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## Michen (23 March 2020)

KEK said:



			Thank you for continuing to detail how it actually is, not just the "oh he's cute", it's so interesting, and very timely for me! I hope you keep going 

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Thanks! The problem is of course you get snapshots of decisions etc on here so it becomes a bit of an endless justification on why you did x in this situation and y in this, but I find people's advice and thoughts really useful so worth gathering them!

And of course the total opposite recommendations makes things interesting as well  

If I'd have posted about Boggle in the first year I had him it would have just been a sentence of swear words and crying faces....


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## SEL (23 March 2020)

My mare used to p-off being led in from the field when she wanted to be elsewhere. Couldn't use a long rope because if you lost her head then she would quite happily kick you to get away. Lovely behaviour. 

Used a bridle for quite some time and even now I'll go back to it if she's being tricky. Tends to coincide with flirting 

I think the one time I did post about that sort of behaviour I was flooded with lots of people telling me that I shouldn't let her do that and they'd never let their horse do that. I remember reading them thinking "well, yes, obviously this is not ideal behaviour. Thanks for pointing out the bleeding obvious!"

Looking forward to seeing how Bear progresses. Nice to see the true story and not just edited highlights!!


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## eggs (23 March 2020)

One of mine whom I have had since a foal is an old fashioned Dutch wb with mahoosive neck and shoulders.  He is always excellent to catch but if you bring him in at a non 'normal' time he will walk with you so far to the gate and then just set his neck and p155 off back to his mates.  His ears would always flick just before he bogged off but at 16.2 and built like the proverbial there was no holding even with a chain over his nose.  The only solution is to catch him and bridle him and run the long line from the offside bit ring, over the top of his head and back through the near side bit ring.  The first time I did this he tried to bog off twice and then realised he couldn't get away from me.  The next time he tried it once and then time after that he didn't try at all.  This was about six years ago but still if he is caught in out of his normal routine the bridle goes on.  Yes, in an ideal world I wouldn't want to have to do it this way but he is a very clever horse and I am sure would revert back to rudeness if he just had a headcollar on.  He does just wear his headcollar to turn him at all times and to catch him in at all other times.

I had another youngster who would plant (he is quite a scaredy cat) and the trick with him was to get his front feet moving by almost 'swinging' him from side to side.  

Good luck with Bear, he certainly does look to be a cracker.


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## Michen (23 March 2020)

SEL said:



			My mare used to p-off being led in from the field when she wanted to be elsewhere. Couldn't use a long rope because if you lost her head then she would quite happily kick you to get away. Lovely behaviour.

Used a bridle for quite some time and even now I'll go back to it if she's being tricky. Tends to coincide with flirting 

I think the one time I did post about that sort of behaviour I was flooded with lots of people telling me that I shouldn't let her do that and they'd never let their horse do that. I remember reading them thinking "well, yes, obviously this is not ideal behaviour. Thanks for pointing out the bleeding obvious!"

Looking forward to seeing how Bear progresses. Nice to see the true story and not just edited highlights!!
		
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Ha yes indeed! We all have our own versions of what's acceptable and what's not. I'm sure there are little things about Boggle that would horrify some, but he is safe, consistent, reliable in every single way. IMO that is more important than anything else.




eggs said:



			One of mine whom I have had since a foal is an old fashioned Dutch wb with mahoosive neck and shoulders.  He is always excellent to catch but if you bring him in at a non 'normal' time he will walk with you so far to the gate and then just set his neck and p155 off back to his mates.  His ears would always flick just before he bogged off but at 16.2 and built like there was no holding even with a chain over his nose.  The only solution is to catch him and bridle him and run the long line from the offside bit ring, over the top of his head and back through the near side bit ring.  The first time I did this he tried to bog off twice and then realised he couldn't get away from me.  The next time he tried it once and then time after that he didn't try at all.  This was about six years ago but still if he is caught in out of his normal routine the bridle goes on.  Yes, in an ideal world I wouldn't want to have to do it this way but he is a very clever horse and I am sure would revert back to rudeness if he just had a headcollar on.  He does just wear his headcollar to turn him at all times and to catch him in at all other times.

I had another youngster who would plant (he is quite a scaredy cat) and the trick with him was to get his front feet moving by almost 'swinging' him from side to side. 

Good luck with Bear, he certainly does look to be a cracker.
		
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I can certainly see Bear spending his young years in a pressure head collar just in case, he's clearly a total opportunist


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## Michen (23 March 2020)

Ha well apparently he thought about it carefully when coming in today and then made the right decision... well done Bear on everything today


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## Michen (24 March 2020)

A few bits of light relief. Bear not respecting his elders (grabbing Bog by the throat, who really has mellowed to just shriek about it but barely act). Bog then realising he can stop the unwanted behaviour by restraining Bear with his lead rope (no they were not left together unattended even for a second!!)

I wasn’t going to do anything with Bear as feeling super unmotivated. Can’t really justify hacking a baby horse with current situation, but kicked myself up the arse and long reined and felt much better for it. He was fab. Intend to have his shoes off this week though, his feet are just appalling and the thrush is so bad- I’m using sole cleanse and artimud but think I need farrier to cut away some of the flappy bits. Am a bit cautious to remove shoes in case he’s sore as the long track around big field for hacking was very poached and is now dry and very rutty, but think it’ll be the best way to sort those feet out.. thoughts? The heels are so contracted and he’s only been shod since December... I don’t understand how they can get that bad with so little shoeing.


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## DabDab (24 March 2020)

Those feet do look like they are dying to get out of shoes....

I find the different responses interesting too. I know I'm quite relaxed about youngsters in general compared to other people. Just because of the type of equine life I've had I suppose, I've seen so many random behaviours that I struggle to get concerned by much. I just work on the basis that stuff will happen and you deal with it instinctively in the moment and tend to know if you haven't dealt with it completely in the moment and then just work up a plan to readdress it (that's an appallingly written sentence, sorry!). Everything gets straightened out in the end with young-uns. The horses that end up in a bit of a pickle tend to either have owners who don't notice there is a problem, or act disproportionately to the problem (either over the top correction or by becoming terrified of the horse), or where there is an underlying physical problem.


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## KEK (24 March 2020)

No idea about feet but would love to know how you get their manes so shiny ?


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## Michen (24 March 2020)

DabDab said:



			Those feet do look like they are dying to get out of shoes....

I find the different responses interesting too. I know I'm quite relaxed about youngsters in general compared to other people. Just because of the type of equine life I've had I suppose, I've seen so many random behaviours that I struggle to get concerned by much. I just work on the basis that stuff will happen and you deal with it instinctively in the moment and tend to know if you haven't dealt with it completely in the moment and then just work up a plan to readdress it (that's an appallingly written sentence, sorry!). Everything gets straightened out in the end with young-uns. The horses that end up in a bit of a pickle tend to either have owners who don't notice there is a problem, or act disproportionately to the problem (either over the top correction or by becoming terrified of the horse), or where there is an underlying physical problem.
		
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Yeah, I'm pretty sure Bog will educate Bear on what's what anyway and I won't have to do a thing


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## ycbm (24 March 2020)

Those feet 😱   years of neglect there! 

.


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## Michen (24 March 2020)

ycbm said:



			Those feet 😱   years of neglect there!

.
		
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Yup they are hurting my eyes. I'm just not sure how they got so bad even if they weren't trimmed, with such limited shoeing.


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## Michen (24 March 2020)

KEK said:



			No idea about feet but would love to know how you get their manes so shiny ?
		
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Just healthy horses!


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## DabDab (24 March 2020)

Michen said:



			Yeah, I'm pretty sure Bog will educate Bear on what's what anyway and I won't have to do a thing 

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#trainingsupremo


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## paddy555 (24 March 2020)

for the frog copper sulphate. Dissolve it and use the brush on a hoof pick to scrub the grooves and the central sulchus. Really deep in the sulchus and repeat every other day or so. Far more effective than many other treatments.


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## ycbm (24 March 2020)

Michen said:



			Yup they are hurting my eyes. I'm just not sure how they got so bad even if they weren't trimmed, with such limited shoeing.
		
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I am guessing that he is a horse who, if not trimmed, grows tin can feet instead of spread ones. And that he probably wasn't trimmed since he was a foal.

Don't expect a quick result, my experience is that contraction is much slower to fix than flare.  But also that they barefoot much easier.


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## SpringArising (24 March 2020)

I think taking the shoes off is a great idea - it's the first thing I would have done. I would also prefer to see a slightly bigger shoe to offload some of the weight from the heel if you do decide to keep them on.


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## ElleSkywalker (24 March 2020)

Love Bog chastising Bear with his leadrope. Clever Bog. I think Bog thinks you have bought Bear purely for him to boss 😁


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## PurBee (24 March 2020)

I’d be surprised if he were sore barefoot, judging by how sunken into the sole the frog is, looks like he’s got a nice depth of sole to start barefoot, despite the shape of the overall foot being dodgy.
The soreness more likely will come from the frog, being thrushy, (copper sulphate is fab) than from the usual issue of thin soles. Cop.sulp. Dries up a frog aswell as kills nasties ime. The long reining ground sounds ideal to work the frog without causing undue pressure.


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## Michen (24 March 2020)

ElleSkywalker said:



			Love Bog chastising Bear with his leadrope. Clever Bog. I think Bog thinks you have bought Bear purely for him to boss 😁
		
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I think he thinks so too but I’m impressed instead of rising to Bears goading he’s coming to with new ways to control his new play thing.


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## DabDab (24 March 2020)

Michen said:



			I think he thinks so too but I’m impressed instead of rising to Bears goading he’s coming to with new ways to control his new play thing.
		
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He'll be a criminal mastermind by the time you bring him back from being turned away. With a gang of simpler equines under his dominion. The Bog mob


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## Michen (24 March 2020)

DabDab said:



			He'll be a criminal mastermind by the time you bring him back from being turned away. With a gang of simpler equines under his dominion. The Bog mob
		
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Nothing strikes fear in my heart quite like the idea of Boggle coming back as feral as when he arrived....


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## Michen (25 March 2020)

PurBee said:



			I’d be surprised if he were sore barefoot, judging by how sunken into the sole the frog is, looks like he’s got a nice depth of sole to start barefoot, despite the shape of the overall foot being dodgy.
The soreness more likely will come from the frog, being thrushy, (copper sulphate is fab) than from the usual issue of thin soles. Cop.sulp. Dries up a frog aswell as kills nasties ime. The long reining ground sounds ideal to work the frog without causing undue pressure.
		
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You reckon? That would be ideal.. seller did say he’s fine out of shoes so hopefully I’ll not have too many issues when I whip them off (on Friday).

Googling copper sulphate no idea where to get it!!


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## ycbm (25 March 2020)

Michen said:



			You reckon? That would be ideal.. seller did say he’s fine out of shoes so hopefully I’ll not have too many issues when I whip them off (on Friday).

Googling copper sulphate no idea where to get it!!
		
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Ebay, around a tenner a kilo.  I have a ton of it if you have any problem. Well ok, twenty kilos but it's still ten years supply!


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## HashRouge (25 March 2020)

DabDab said:



			Those feet do look like they are dying to get out of shoes....

I find the different responses interesting too. I know I'm quite relaxed about youngsters in general compared to other people. Just because of the type of equine life I've had I suppose, I've seen so many random behaviours that I struggle to get concerned by much. I just work on the basis that stuff will happen and you deal with it instinctively in the moment and tend to know if you haven't dealt with it completely in the moment and then just work up a plan to readdress it (that's an appallingly written sentence, sorry!). Everything gets straightened out in the end with young-uns. The horses that end up in a bit of a pickle tend to either have owners who don't notice there is a problem, or act disproportionately to the problem (either over the top correction or by becoming terrified of the horse), or where there is an underlying physical problem.
		
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I think this is so true! When I did my two year stint as an SJ groom, this was one of my biggest takeaways. The youngster who would constantly half-rear from excitement when out hacking, or the one who wouldn't pick its feet up, or the one who was dreadful to catch, or even the one who turned itself inside out rearing every time anyone tried to do anything with it for the first month - they ALL settled down eventually with calm handling and consistency. 

Also, I feel like Bear and Bog are going to be fast friends. My old Arab hates other horses but for some reason when she first met my sister's Welsh D she took to him straight away - it was like she knew he was part of the family. Now they are absolute best friends and can't be apart (you probably don't want Bear and Bog to be quite that clingy!).


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## Tarragon (25 March 2020)

I am super impressed with the long reining in such an open field. The impulse to canter off into the distance must be huge, so he is very respectful to be so well behaved.


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## Roxylola (25 March 2020)

Bog looks to be very happy with his new toy companion.  I suspect once they go out together they will rag each other something rotten and have a wonderful time doing it!
I had copper sulphate off amazon before now


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## Michen (25 March 2020)

Tarragon said:



			I am super impressed with the long reining in such an open field. The impulse to canter off into the distance must be huge, so he is very respectful to be so well behaved.
		
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It's a huge open field (about 40 min to hack the entire way around) with a grassy track all around it as half of it is laid to crop. It's super as running parallel to it is a very fast busy road so you can expose them to traffic and noise whilst having a low hedge between you.

So helpful for younguns!


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## Michen (25 March 2020)

Wasn’t going to post this as it just doesn’t feel like an appropriate time and I’m still having the same mental battle re riding or not, and essentially broke the rules I had already laid down for myself.

But god my spirits are lifted amongst this endless job worry. First hack under saddle (and third time being ridden since being at yard) out hacking around the big field. Didn’t put a foot wrong even when a huge lorry came down the road on the other side of a very low hedge. Wobbly and babyish to begin with but soon got his confidence.

He’s coming on leaps and bounds in every way


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## RHM (25 March 2020)

I for one am glad your posting this! We all need a bit of light relief at the moment and I’m loving the bear updates! He looks absolutely fab, I want Bog to get back into work so I can steal Bear!


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## palo1 (25 March 2020)

Fantastic!  Great update and we all have to do what we need to in order to  keep going forwards


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## McFluff (25 March 2020)

Sometimes you just have to trust your instincts. He’s lovely.


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## CanteringCarrot (26 March 2020)

Great update!


I long lined my weirdo today who was strangely bold around a huge and fast lorry, Nordic walkers (they have sticks!), bikers (usually not an issue, but it's spring), and just people being out doing Lord knows what. He was spooky walking out of the stable, however. *eye roll* but maybe today is a good day for the equines!

I bet Bear is also getting to know you now and you've become "familiar"...this probably helps! He may turn out to be a solid equine citizen after all


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## J&S (26 March 2020)

Stepping out nicely!


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## Tarragon (26 March 2020)

Was the person who took the picture on a huge horse?


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## Michen (26 March 2020)

Tarragon said:



			Was the person who took the picture on a huge horse?
		
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Lol no, but she was quite far away (social distancing rules!) and on the track bit so a slightly different level. He takes up the leg fairly nicely, I’m 5’7.


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## Michen (26 March 2020)

CanteringCarrot said:



			Great update!


I long lined my weirdo today who was strangely bold around a huge and fast lorry, Nordic walkers (they have sticks!), bikers (usually not an issue, but it's spring), and just people being out doing Lord knows what. He was spooky walking out of the stable, however. *eye roll* but maybe today is a good day for the equines!

I bet Bear is also getting to know you now and you've become "familiar"...this probably helps! He may turn out to be a solid equine citizen after all 

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Ha! Horses eh.

Yes he’s super sweet with me, still a bit nervy with other people. Was quite funny hacking him when I put my reins in one hand to get my phone out and he stopped and looked around as if to say “errr excuse me, need instruction and focus from you at all times please”.

No Bear, I like to have the odd cigarette when riding, you’ll need to get used to one hand


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## PurBee (26 March 2020)

Michen said:



			Lol no, but she was quite far away (social distancing rules!) and on the track bit so a slightly different level. He takes up the leg fairly nicely, I’m 5’7.
View attachment 42819

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lol you’re friend is obviously mounted on a 4 legged monster without a head!🤣

wonderful to hear bear is progressing, he obviously trusts your guidance to be doing so well in such a short time. The vids of him and bog getting to know each other are gorgeous!


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## Pinkvboots (26 March 2020)

Michen said:



			Lol no, but she was quite far away (social distancing rules!) and on the track bit so a slightly different level. He takes up the leg fairly nicely, I’m 5’7.
View attachment 42819

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It looks like the photographer is sittin on a huge spider lol


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## DabDab (26 March 2020)

PurBee said:



			lol you’re friend is obviously mounted on a 4 legged monster without a head!🤣

wonderful to hear bear is progressing, he obviously trusts your guidance to be doing so well in such a short time. The vids of him and bog getting to know each other are gorgeous!
		
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Maybe the friend is a 4 legged monster?! That is a wacky shadow!


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## Michen (26 March 2020)

I think friends horse was just grazing guys... ha ha!!!


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## Slightlyconfused (26 March 2020)

Richard maxwell and Tristan Tucker (TRT Method) would be my advice. 

Having a horse learn not to panic when there is pressure is a brilliant thing to teach. 

My spotty was backed by a lady who follows Buck Brannaman. He learnt to not run away from scary stuff and to stop and have a look at it. Doenst mean he doenst spook, just calms down and thinks about life easier. 

Ground work with lots of spooky stuff is good as well as lots of fun. 
Getting them to learn lateral work from the ground is also a very good way of getting them to learn where their hooves are and focus on you. 

Xxx


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## Slightlyconfused (26 March 2020)

Sorry my HHO mobile just managed to catch up that I'm out of date with my reply 🙄😂🤦‍♀️

He looks really good. Xx


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## Michen (26 March 2020)

He’s being epic. Proper grown up hack today, he was brave and confident and reacted so well to everything he met. Felt really comfortable on him.  Love his trot even with its baby stage too- he moves brilliantly.

Shoes off tomorrow sigh... unless I change my mind at the last minute. I really really really want to keep him shod and continue our hacking to get him properly going but... argh. No need to explain any further.

For now I’ll remember this as I dither about what to do.


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## Michen (26 March 2020)

RHM said:



			I for one am glad your posting this! We all need a bit of light relief at the moment and I’m loving the bear updates! He looks absolutely fab, I want Bog to get back into work so I can steal Bear!
		
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Bog is really offended that it’s not him you want to steal!!!!!


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## ITPersonnage (26 March 2020)

I'm not bovvered, I'd have either (or both)


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## Jayzee (26 March 2020)

That video looks like the best feeling in the world right now!


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## Michen (26 March 2020)

Jayzee said:



			That video looks like the best feeling in the world right now!
		
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It really was. Uplifted my spirits so much. But I can’t shake the guilt! I’d probably feel different if it was Boggle but I’m not sure I can carry on justifying hacking an unknown green baby under saddle right now.

I feel (selfishly) like a new woman though!! 😃


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## mavandkaz (26 March 2020)

Michen said:



			Shoes off tomorrow sigh... unless I change my mind at the last minute. I really really really want to keep him shod and continue our hacking to get him properly going but... argh.
		
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Made then phone call a couple of hours ago....shoes coming off tomorrow. She will be fine schooling and going round the field.

Glad he's behaving himself, he was throwing some interesting shapes in the field, and doing a good impression of Bog 🙈


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## splashgirl45 (26 March 2020)

nice to see something positive in this worrying time,  keep posting please


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## Michen (27 March 2020)

splashgirl45 said:



			nice to see something positive in this worrying time,  keep posting please
		
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## Michen (27 March 2020)

Well the shoes are off. Right decision I think though I felt a bit of a pang as people are planning lovely long hacks and I so enjoyed yesterday.

But hey ho, right decision for his feet and he might be comfortable enough quite quickly to lightly hack- who knows. It will do him no harm for sure and I'm lucky to even be able to be around my horses at all so giving up proper spring hacks shouldn't exactly be a hardship- perspective fgs!!!

And helps financially as I await the likely furloughing.


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## RHM (27 March 2020)

Michen said:



			Bog is really offended that it’s not him you want to steal!!!!!
		
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Haha I’m not going to lie I would happily take either of them! All pony shopping trips look cancelled for the foreseeable so I’m just planning on stealing yours now instead!


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## CanteringCarrot (27 March 2020)

Great update! Love the view from between Bear's ears!


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## Pinkvboots (27 March 2020)

If you are just hacking in a field surely he would be fine without shoes or do you have some hoof boots you could put on if he get a bit sensitive?


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## Michen (27 March 2020)

Just had a work call re job security and they have a (good!) plan, such a relief. So immediately have purchased Bog and Bear the matching Rambo stable sheets! Ha!


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## Michen (27 March 2020)

Pinkvboots said:



			If you are just hacking in a field surely he would be fine without shoes or do you have some hoof boots you could put on if he get a bit sensitive?
		
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Probably will be but it's quite rutty and hard now atm. Should level out soon. Sold my scoot boots and not sure his feet would have been the right shape for them anyway!


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## DirectorFury (27 March 2020)

Michen said:



			Probably will be but it's quite rutty and hard now atm. Should level out soon. Sold my scoot boots and not sure his feet would have been the right shape for them anyway!
		
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I know I've offered before but if you get desperate I've got a pair of Swiss Galoppers and a pair of Floating Boots here that you're welcome to borrow for as long as you need. We've given up on bf for the time being so they're just gathering dust in the spare room.


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## Michen (27 March 2020)

DirectorFury said:



			I know I've offered before but if you get desperate I've got a pair of Swiss Galoppers and a pair of Floating Boots here that you're welcome to borrow for as long as you need. We've given up on bf for the time being so they're just gathering dust in the spare room.
		
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That is super kind, again, thank you!!! xxx


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## alexomahony (27 March 2020)

I'm really enjoying this thread - Bear is lovely and Bog is totally stunning too - give Bear a few months maturing and I expect they'll look like a mirror image is each other! 

His walk looked great - really forward and bouncy - really looking forward to seeing further updates and seeing him progress once all this is over  

x


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## MuddyTB (27 March 2020)

You are definitely picking my next horse for me. Both your boys are stunning and hopefully he'll be even better in a few weeks/months with better feet and a bit more grown up.
 Add me to the queue to steal him


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## Pinkvboots (27 March 2020)

Michen said:



			Probably will be but it's quite rutty and hard now atm. Should level out soon. Sold my scoot boots and not sure his feet would have been the right shape for them anyway!
		
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It's so rutty here as well at the moment it's just gone from being underwater to completely dry in a few weeks crazy!


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## Pinkvboots (27 March 2020)

DirectorFury said:



			I know I've offered before but if you get desperate I've got a pair of Swiss Galoppers and a pair of Floating Boots here that you're welcome to borrow for as long as you need. We've given up on bf for the time being so they're just gathering dust in the spare room.
		
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I was looking at the floating boots how did you find them? I have cavallo trec and find them clumpy so was looking at lighter options, I liked the gallopers as well as my friend has a pair for her warmblood and she has got on with them fine.


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## DirectorFury (27 March 2020)

Pinkvboots said:



			I was looking at the floating boots how did you find them? I have cavallo trec and find them clumpy so was looking at lighter options, I liked the gallopers as well as my friend has a pair for her warmblood and she has got on with them fine.
		
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My horse has awkward shaped feet so no boots were a perfect fit, she also has/had a weird flare on one front.

I couldn't get the Galoppers to stay on at anything faster than a walk but they were easy to put on! They're a little clumpy and weren't a great fit after her feet changed size/shape.
The Floating Boots were magic when I could get them on, they were a ridiculously tight fit and it could take me up to 30 mins a time *but* I never got round to heat forming them which should have helped. They were a nightmare when her feet were slightly muddy because you'd end up covered in mud! With hindsight I should have bought one size up - she was right on the boundary of 2 sizes and I didn't want to risk boots coming off. They were really really good apart from that, I'll use them again next time we try bf .


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## Pinkvboots (27 March 2020)

DirectorFury said:



			My horse has awkward shaped feet so no boots were a perfect fit, she also has/had a weird flare on one front.

I couldn't get the Galoppers to stay on at anything faster than a walk but they were easy to put on! They're a little clumpy and weren't a great fit after her feet changed size/shape.
The Floating Boots were magic when I could get them on, they were a ridiculously tight fit and it could take me up to 30 mins a time *but* I never got round to heat forming them which should have helped. They were a nightmare when her feet were slightly muddy because you'd end up covered in mud! With hindsight I should have bought one size up - she was right on the boundary of 2 sizes and I didn't want to risk boots coming off. They were really really good apart from that, I'll use them again next time we try bf .
		
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Thank you they looked tricky to get on I thought just from the pictures I saw, my friend said the gallopers sometimes come off with faster work.

I really like the scoot boots but my horse has a slightly smaller more upright hoof so I don't think they would work although since taking the shoes off it looks better and has spread out more so I might ring hoof boutique they are still open and see what they suggest. Thanks again


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## Michen (28 March 2020)

Bear would just like everyone to see how handsome he is. 





Stomped out of shoes (for now) just went for a hack around the big field. Foot perfect again. 

On another note it’s almost sad how Boggle is being when Bear is tied up and being engaged with etc. The pawing and flattening ears etc, snaking his head was mildly amusing at first but now I just feel bad, he’s still getting about 2 hours a day of one on one time with walking, grooming, hand grazing etc and he’s going to have to bloody get used to it especially if I have both long term. 

I could tie Bear outside instead of in the barn next to my stuff etc but sort of feel that’s ridiculous just because of Bog annoyance. So I take it back, horses 100% get jealous, I really can’t believe how much it’s upsetting him!


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## ycbm (28 March 2020)

Michen said:



			Bear would just like everyone to see how handsome he is.
		
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Ahem.  Some of us knew that already while his owner was saying his head was too big  🙄
.


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## Michen (28 March 2020)

ycbm said:



			Ahem.  Some of us knew that already while his owner was saying his head was too big  🙄
.
		
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It is! Meat head. Handsome one though.


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## Jeni the dragon (28 March 2020)

He's very handsome!


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## KEK (28 March 2020)

Think jealousy in animals is definitely a real thing. Multidog household here, for dog sports, and a always try and ration time fairly, have 1 dog (BCx) who will try to split me from any dog I am paying attention to by climbing in my lap, even if she was fast asleep ..!


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## ester (28 March 2020)

Cally absolutely fumes if she thinks Frank is getting more attention than she is.
She will also only ever try and bite him if there is a human around to back her up, otherwise she is far too scared of the consequences from him.


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## Errin Paddywack (29 March 2020)

Michen said:



			Bear would just like everyone to see how handsome he is.
		
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I think he is absolutely fabulous.


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## Michen (29 March 2020)

Errin Paddywack said:



			I think he is absolutely fabulous.
		
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Me too. Really getting to know him now and liking what I’m finding. Cheeky, clever, willing little chap who does want to do the right thing but has his own spark. I think soon there will be zero nervousness whatsoever and in fact there isn’t any more with me. I  think we got it bang on right with him going back to the very basics and building up from there carefully to make sure he has grown in confidence and not had a single set back. 

He’s super quick to learn, now I am re doing hacking routes I am seeing it even more. Things he really needed to look at and assess and then decide was ok for example two days ago didn’t even get a pause at today. Mounting block learned in a session, hasn’t pulled away again leading in etc. 

He does need squashing a bit, he tried to break into trot on the long reins and when I blocked him (gently!) suddenly a hoof was thrown with gusto in my direction. Took me by surprise as I’ve never seen that from him before and a good reminder (not that I needed it but, ya know!) as to keeping distance when long reining and wearing a hat however sweet natured the horse is.  The positive thing now is that he can be reprimanded without needing to worry about a break down. I doubt he will ever do that again just because it’s a lesson he’s now learned as to what is and isn’t acceptable. 

And he seems to really enjoy working which is lovely. So yes, so far so good and very pleased. And if I’m honest feeling quite relieved that he’s not really a nervous nelly and that I think a confident young horse can be made from here on out, albeit I still need to be mindful and remember he’s not Bog. 

Plan for now will be hours and hours of long reining over the next couple of months for both feet (depending on how they go)  and general education, with a bit of riding in the school occasionally or light hacking in company.


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## Michen (29 March 2020)

Tried to take a cute selfie, you know those posy nice ones so many girls seem to easily achieve where they look like they’ve stepped out of an advert but.. Bear had other ideas and just wanted to steal my cap.


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## splashgirl45 (29 March 2020)

so nice to hear that all is going well.  keep the updates coming please, i am getting a little horsey fix from your posts as i dont have a horse anymore and now cant really go to my old yard to help out,  so am really feeling the loss of horse contact...


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## Michen (31 March 2020)

Oh Bog you are so damn cute... and such a good boy. 

The least said about Bear today the better. Am reminding myself how many swear words I uttered about Boggle 3 years ago..  tomorrow is another day!


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## ElleSkywalker (1 April 2020)

Oh Bog you big labrador on a string! Messing up all your mums grooming 😂😍 So cute! 

And Bears obviously heard you have done a thread bodyshaminging the little tubber 😂


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## KEK (1 April 2020)

Michen said:



			Oh Bog you are so damn cute... and such a good boy. 

The least said about Bear today the better. Am reminding myself how many swear words I uttered about Boggle 3 years ago..  tomorrow is another day! 

View attachment 43286








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Oh come on... What  did he do ?? Warts and all lol 
Bog is ridiculously gorgeous


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## Michen (1 April 2020)

KEK said:



			Oh come on... What  did he do ?? Warts and all lol
Bog is ridiculously gorgeous
		
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Oh he just felt a horse coming towards him whilst out long reining was completely unacceptable, he would almost give Boggle a run for his money with sharpness but not quite. Needs some more squishing!


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## MyBoyChe (1 April 2020)

Loving this thread and just caught up with the last few days worth.  On the jealousy thing, I wouldnt have believed it either but just before Coronagate we bought a little Sec b for our granddaughter to learn on.  My gentle highland turned into a horror almost overnight when he realised the interloper on the edge of his field was actually his new little brother.  He became almost dangerous to handle for a few days, refusing to lead nicely and proper full on tantrums on the end of the rope.  Fortunately for me hes not as brave as he makes out and a bit of firm but gentle reprimanding put him back in his box.  He still refuses to engage with the little one who is desperate to make friends, but is at least, behaving with me.  I was a bit dubious that it was jealousy but it seems it was/is.  Like you, the big one is just going to have to deal with it Im afraid, he still gets more of my time and is still my special boy but the little one is likely here to stay


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## Michen (1 April 2020)

MyBoyChe said:



			Loving this thread and just caught up with the last few days worth.  On the jealousy thing, I wouldnt have believed it either but just before Coronagate we bought a little Sec b for our granddaughter to learn on.  My gentle highland turned into a horror almost overnight when he realised the interloper on the edge of his field was actually his new little brother.  He became almost dangerous to handle for a few days, refusing to lead nicely and proper full on tantrums on the end of the rope.  Fortunately for me hes not as brave as he makes out and a bit of firm but gentle reprimanding put him back in his box.  He still refuses to engage with the little one who is desperate to make friends, but is at least, behaving with me.  I was a bit dubious that it was jealousy but it seems it was/is.  Like you, the big one is just going to have to deal with it Im afraid, he still gets more of my time and is still my special boy but the little one is likely here to stay
		
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Unbelievable eh! I can't believe Boggle's level of anger. He actually quite likes Bear when I let them meet over the door etc, but when I lead Bear in to the barn Bog has started actually squealing in annoyance....

This is generally how he looks at me when I'm grooming Bear..


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## tristar (1 April 2020)

i have those  ``you are guilty looks``  all the time, mainly its jealousy around who is going to be ridden, they don`t like being left out, i`m soddin worn out sometimes


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## Fraggle2 (6 April 2020)

How are the boys doing?


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## Fraggle2 (6 April 2020)

How are the boys doing?


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## Fraggle2 (6 April 2020)

Duplicate


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## ycbm (6 April 2020)

Do you have to do Bear  in full view of Bog?  It doesnt seem very fair, sorry if that upsets you.

.


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## Michen (6 April 2020)

fraggle2 said:



			How are the boys doing?
		
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Really good thanks for asking!! Bog is doing great, about two thirds of the way through his box rest now and really holding it together all things considered. He does spend about 2 hours out of his box hand grazing, walking, being groomed etc now thanks to Corona virus so really not too bad for him.

Bear is barefoot and doing tons of groundwork, have got really in to the Richard Maxwell stuff (watching far too many videos), he is super quick and if you've seen any of the halter work he does Bear got it within about ten mins flat and remembered it all perfectly the next day. Going to spend loads of time really building up a relationship whilst Corona virus is at the forefront of our minds and make sure we have a super solid foundation before picking him up again when things hopefully calm down (and Boggle has finished his rehab).

Not sure if I posted this pic but a funny one of them both, they seem to get on very well now and it’s nice I can make sure Bog gets some horsey interaction. They’d play for hours if they could!


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## Michen (6 April 2020)

ycbm said:



			Do you have to do Bear  in full view of Bog?  It doesnt seem very fair, sorry if that upsets you.

.
		
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Not at the moment, I could tie Bear outside instead of in the barn if I really wanted to albeit all my "stuff" is outside Bog's stable. At some point fairly soon Bear will be moving into a stable opposite Boggle though, so sadly he is going to have to get used to it anyway, so I don't really see the point in prolonging it!

He really doesn't have much to complain about in reality, and does hush up if I chuck him a treat ball or whatnot so he can't be that upset. Plus he gets at least twice the amount of time from me that Bear does  and is loving playing with him over the stable door- it's the only horsey interaction he gets.


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## Michen (15 April 2020)

Howdy all! Hope everyone is coping with lockdown ok. A little Bear update... 

We have been doing tons of ground work and desensitisation and really chuffed with him. Took it a step further today tying wellies to saddle which flapped around his sides (had a few bucks- fair enough!) then filled them with stones and added an empty big bottle with stones to the saddle too which made a decent noise (sound up!) A week Or two ago this would undoubtedly have caused a huge scared reaction and had him shaking like a leaf after. He has a definite flight response to things he feels he can’t cope with and he’s really learning to stop, slow down, think. As you can see from the video although he’s a bit stuffy thinking what the hell is this mad woman doing now- he’s pretty chilled! Also put him into a decent canter and remained the same. 

Next up is bikes, then a big bouncy beach ball I’m waiting for from Amazon. He is really settling in and just generally so much calmer, I think I made the mistake of thinking he was more settled/less nervous than he actually was as I’m now starting to see a huge change. Hopefully the groundwork and lockdown will work in my favour for a super educated pony. We will start long reining again soon and hopefully riding in a month or two, with the idea that I’ve created a safe a youngster as I possibly can under the circumstances.


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## splashgirl45 (15 April 2020)

just thinking, they would make a nice pair for driving....2 handsome boys...glad all is going well with both of them


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## Michen (15 April 2020)

splashgirl45 said:



			just thinking, they would make a nice pair for driving....2 handsome boys...glad all is going well with both of them
		
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They’d be so cute! 

I am trying very very very hard not to compare the two but it is a bit tricky


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## SatansLittleHelper (15 April 2020)

Awwww he's really coming on isn't he ❤❤


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## Michen (16 April 2020)

SatansLittleHelper said:



			Awwww he's really coming on isn't he ❤❤
		
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He is! Obviously we are well "behind" on the ridden work but I think this will pay off long term. If I’m honest I’m not sure he will be my cup of tea long term...which is ideal as selling was always "the plan" and he will be someone's for sure - I think he's a bit too drippy for me. But.. it's very early days, and he will be fantastic for someone if not for me!


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## RHM (16 April 2020)

Michen said:



			He is! Obviously we are well "behind" on the ridden work but I think this will pay off long term. If I’m honest I’m not sure he will be my cup of tea long term...which is ideal as selling was always "the plan" and he will be someone's for sure - I think he's a bit too drippy for me. But.. it's very early days, and he will be fantastic for someone if not for me!
		
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And that someone is me 😍


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## Michen (16 April 2020)

RHM said:



			And that someone is me 😍
		
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Well I'm busy making him the best I can with my (limited!) ability, so fingers crossed


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## RHM (16 April 2020)

Michen said:



			Well I'm busy making him the best I can with my (limited!) ability, so fingers crossed 

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You really did buy him at just the right time, clifden has been postponed (rightly so) until god knows when and I have a empty stable that I am desperate to fill! Your little one couldn’t be any more my type!


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## Michen (16 April 2020)

RHM said:



			You really did buy him at just the right time, clifden has been postponed (rightly so) until god knows when and I have a empty stable that I am desperate to fill! Your little one couldn’t be any more my type!
		
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Yes funny how it works out, a week later in the horse search and I'd have an empty stable too. Though having lost a massive chunk of my monthly salary and in an industry which is currently dead in the water (hospitality tech), I definitely wouldn't have bought him if I'd known what was going to happen.

Everything happens for a reason though... I hope.


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## RHM (16 April 2020)

Michen said:



			Yes funny how it works out, a week later in the horse search and I'd have an empty stable too. Though having lost a massive chunk of my monthly salary and in an industry which is currently dead in the water (hospitality tech), I definitely wouldn't have bought him if I'd known what was going to happen.

Everything happens for a reason though... I hope.
		
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Yeah I bet! It’s such uncertain times for so many people at the moment! I am a big believer in things happen for a reason and I don’t think anyone could ever regret buying bear when you look at that gorgeous face!


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## Michen (16 April 2020)

Also cheerful chick video for anyone who needs a smile. The yellow one is definitely a cockerel- he’s a little git!


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## ycbm (16 April 2020)

Michen said:



			I think he's a bit too drippy for me. 

Click to expand...


I'd wait until he's five before you say that. I spent two years saying I was going to sell this horse because he was too quiet for me. At five I could barely manage him! He's six here. We thought he was a terrible jumper at first, because under a metre he couldn't be bothered, and hit so many fixed fences I thought he was going to kill us both 🤣


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## Michen (16 April 2020)

ycbm said:



			I'd wait until he's five before you say that. I spent two years saying I was going to sell this horse because he was too quiet for me. At five I could barely manage him! He's six here. We thought he was a terrible jumper at first, because under a metre he couldn't be bothered, and hit so many fixed fences I thought he was going to kill us both 🤣

View attachment 44480

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Well, I'll have him until he's 5 in theory so we will see! I think I won't really get a chance to do enough with him now to know I guess (initially I thought we'd be doing a baby XC, hunter trial by autumn), I certainly wouldn't keep him unless he's bold as brass around an XC course like Boggle and Basil and we won't be doing that any time soon, reality is he will probably be up for sale/loan before he's ever gone to an event or really done much... I can't see myself wanting to spend the time on doing that with him vs getting Bog up and running fully, as the two would overlap time wise if I bought Bog in from the field in time to be fully fit mid next year.

Anyhow, goodness knows where we will all be in a year! Bog may stay out longer, maybe I'll pay for Bear to be produced a bit more whilst I bring Bog back.. will see.


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## ycbm (16 April 2020)

Well with confirmation like that he isn't going to be difficult to sell. That shoulder is magnificent!

.


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## Michen (16 April 2020)

ycbm said:



			Well with confirmation like that he isn't going to be difficult to sell. That shoulder is magnificent!

.
		
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Hehe, and to think the slating the poor fella got from the other half of HHO when he was in his winter woollies with awful shoeing.

He is a brilliant mover, the few times I've trotted him under saddle- wow! Doesn't feel like a pony at all.


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## ihatework (16 April 2020)

Michen said:



			Hehe, and to think the slating the poor fella got from the other half of HHO when he was in his winter woollies with awful shoeing.

He is a brilliant mover, the few times I've trotted him under saddle- wow! Doesn't feel like a pony at all.
		
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I don’t remember him getting a huge slating? Wasn’t it generally positive?


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## Michen (16 April 2020)

ihatework said:



			I don’t remember him getting a huge slating? Wasn’t it generally positive?
		
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I think it was a fairly mixed bag on initial photos. Tbf no one could tell with the photos and fluff what may have been reality, and when he got a slating it was a severe slating, because he did look like he had a deformed fetlock and the feet made everything 10 x worse. 

But yes half of HHO is probably inaccurate statement, I just remember the question marks because, well, I didn’t have a real life image to go on and was taking a risk.


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## ihatework (16 April 2020)

I think everyone was just relieved you weren’t buying the lame yak 😂😂😂😂


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## Michen (16 April 2020)

Still sort of wish I had bought the lame yak... 🤣  


No. No I don’t.


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## Errin Paddywack (16 April 2020)

I liked him from the start, couldn't see the faults that some thought they could see.  Such a gorgeous looking horse now.


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## Michen (16 April 2020)

Errin Paddywack said:



			I liked him from the start, couldn't see the faults that some thought they could see.  Such a gorgeous looking horse now.
		
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Little canter video I found, installing that stop/woah button! And me running like a loon to keep him on a bigger circle with a not very long rope 🙈🤣 He’s very cute and tries very hard!!


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## Nevin's Run (16 April 2020)

Michen said:



			Little canter video I found, installing that stop/woah button! And me running like a loon to keep him on a bigger circle with a not very long rope 🙈🤣 He’s very cute and tries very hard!!
		
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I love that you're cantering too


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## Michen (16 April 2020)

Nevin's Run said:



			I love that you're cantering too 

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Lockdown has sent me demented!


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## Michen (16 April 2020)

Another evening of torture for Bear whilst Bog takes life easy... 😂


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## ycbm (16 April 2020)

Michen said:



			Hehe, and to think the slating the poor fella got from the other half of HHO when he was in his winter woollies with awful shoeing.

He is a brilliant mover, the few times I've trotted him under saddle- wow! Doesn't feel like a pony at all.
		
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I'm really holding my breath as I write this but you own two horses and there's only one of them I would have bought at four at all and only one of them I would  buy now,  and him I'd bite your hand off 
for ..........

.


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## Michen (16 April 2020)

ycbm said:



			I'm really holding my breath as I write this but you own two horses and there's only one of them I would have bought at four at all and only one of them I would  buy now,  and him I'd bite your hand off for ..........

.
		
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Boggle says thank you 🤣 he looks forward to heading north. We can do a good price..


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## ycbm (16 April 2020)

Michen said:



			Boggle says thank you 🤣 he looks forward to heading north. We can do a good price..
		
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Sadly Bog  has too high an opinion of himself 🤣

But that's why you love him so much, isn't it?

My bestest ever soulmate horse is the one in my avatar. He had the heart of a lion, but was badly put together and had a back long enough for  two people to ride him at once 😆. 

.


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## Michen (16 April 2020)

ycbm said:



			Sadly Bog  has too high an opinion of himself 🤣

But that's why you love him so much, isn't it?

My bestest ever soulmate horse is the one in my avatar. He had the heart of a lion, but was badly put together and had a back long enough for  two people to ride him at once 😆.

.
		
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Ha! They sound familiar eh... I love him because he is loyal and has a level of engagement with you as a person and life in general that I've genuinely never seen in another horse. Love the braveness etc too but I think it's the engagement thing that's really special.

Still, 2.5 years ago I'd have told you I hated his cocky attitude and his opinion of himself but that's because I wasn't skilled enough to see how to channel it


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## ycbm (16 April 2020)

You could be describing Tetley. He just loved life, and people. If you turned him out in a field with jumps in, he jumped them. I still miss him more than a decade later.

.


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## Michen (20 April 2020)

Bear is begging for someone to rehome him. He is truly sick of my gleeful attempts to challenge him and would very much like someone to come and pick him up. ASAP.

A windy day so what better than a tarp. He couldn’t have been less bothered even when he first saw it, his initial reaction as videoed was just to get his greedy chops round it (I’ve never known a horse eat quite like he does).

A few videos for anyone bored enough to watch him. Oh and in case you all think I’ve lost the plot (I have).. I’m not doing this in the hope he will then not spook at a bit of haylage wrapper in the wind, I don’t really believe that kind of despooking works, but I do think there’s value in the stuff I’m doing with him currently as he just seems generally more confident with life and more relaxed all round.


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## SEL (20 April 2020)

One of the mud cottages is being replastered on the lane to our yard and the wall is protected by a big flapping tarp. Me = very smug at the tarp flapping desensitized horse walking past it without issue.

Then she teleported sideways at a robin in the hedge.


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## Michen (20 April 2020)

SEL said:



			One of the mud cottages is being replastered on the lane to our yard and the wall is protected by a big flapping tarp. Me = very smug at the tarp flapping desensitized horse walking past it without issue.

Then she teleported sideways at a robin in the hedge.
		
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ha! Exactly. Bear seems to really dislike crows....


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## thefarsideofthefield (20 April 2020)

How to Gift Wrap a Connie ?


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## HashRouge (21 April 2020)

Just remind me how big he is Michen?

I can't quite believe those tarpaulin videos. I'm trying to imagine doing something similar with my 27 yr old Arab and I'm fairly sure it would end up with her flattening me and having a complete freak out! I wouldn't be surprised if he makes a bold XC horse after all if he can cope with something like that!


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## scats (21 April 2020)

Love him.  I’m pretty sure Millie would drop dead in terror if she saw that tarpaulin come towards her!


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## Michen (21 April 2020)

HashRouge said:



			Just remind me how big he is Michen?

I can't quite believe those tarpaulin videos. I'm trying to imagine doing something similar with my 27 yr old Arab and I'm fairly sure it would end up with her flattening me and having a complete freak out! I wouldn't be surprised if he makes a bold XC horse after all if he can cope with something like that!
		
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He is about 15hh, maybe 15.1hh

Yes he looked at it for a few seconds on the floor and that was that. Didn’t bat an eyelid with it whatever I did, there was no build up to him having it flapping around like that!

Funny chap as he’s certainly not a bombproof plod!


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## Michen (21 April 2020)

scats said:



			Love him.  I’m pretty sure Millie would drop dead in terror if she saw that tarpaulin come towards her!
		
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Bog would be ok if I asked him to jump it but if I wrapped it over him like that I think he’d be very pissed off!!!


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## Cloball (21 April 2020)

Read the video title as Bear trap and giggled 😒 nothing to see here.


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## Sheep (21 April 2020)

Love the tarp pics! 
They are so funny with what spooks them. E.g. my newbie had zero issue with me fishing stray bits of electric fence tape (not switched on I hasten to add) with a schooling whip while on board and generally doesn't mind machinery, bikes etc. BUT he is really freaked by manhole covers. Which is made even funnier by the fact that I work for a manufacturer of said item!!


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## Pinkvboots (21 April 2020)

HashRouge said:



			Just remind me how big he is Michen?

I can't quite believe those tarpaulin videos. I'm trying to imagine doing something similar with my 27 yr old Arab and I'm fairly sure it would end up with her flattening me and having a complete freak out! I wouldn't be surprised if he makes a bold XC horse after all if he can cope with something like that!
		
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One of my Arabs would freak I don't think I could ever get him to accept it, I have tried similar with him and he gets marginally better in that session then if you try it again he goes back to be terrified so I gave up years ago


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## Roxylola (21 April 2020)

I think all of this builds trust that you dont ask him to do something he cant, so when he is scared of whatever and you put your leg on and say it's ok, he trusts that it is ok because its always been ok. Spooky horses will always be spooky, all the tarps in the world wont change that, but it will change the way they react next


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## MuddyTB (21 April 2020)

Wow, that is amazing. My TB wouldn't go withing 10m of a tarp.
Just LOVE Bear and his cheeky ways.


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## Rosemary28 (21 April 2020)

I love how smug he looks in the second video, "Yes, I'm a very brave pony, nothing bothers me!"


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## palo1 (21 April 2020)

I think the reason he may be looking and feeling more relaxed and confident is that as a 'working' breed he may feel happier with a job to do, problems to solve.  I have had several young horses that improve immensely when given plenty to think about and become more difficult if just left.  It's just a thought but he looks very happy in these videos.   The devil makes work for idle ponies and all....


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## Michen (21 April 2020)

palo1 said:



			I think the reason he may be looking and feeling more relaxed and confident is that as a 'working' breed he may feel happier with a job to do, problems to solve.  I have had several young horses that improve immensely when given plenty to think about and become more difficult if just left.  It's just a thought but he looks very happy in these videos.  The devil makes work for idle ponies and all....

Click to expand...


Agree. Feeling very lucky this eve!


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## palo1 (21 April 2020)

Wow !! such a smart pair!!


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## ElleSkywalker (21 April 2020)

I really want to wrap my cob in a tarp now 😂

Love the grazing pic, do you think the boyz will be able to go out together when Bog able to or do you think Bog will bounce Bear about?

ps I spot a familiar back end in the first grazing pic 😀


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## Michen (22 April 2020)

ElleSkywalker said:



			I really want to wrap my cob in a tarp now 😂

Love the grazing pic, do you think the boyz will be able to go out together when Bog able to or do you think Bog will bounce Bear about?

ps I spot a familiar back end in the first grazing pic 😀
		
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I actually think Bear may bounce Bog about!! Bog makes a lot of noise but it’s Bear that’s doing all the instigating of annoyance at the moment 😂

Really hope so, I’d love Bog to be turned out with someone eventually but understandably no one wants to risk it because he’s such a known terror. However as long as he’s not next to another mare when turned out with another horse (Bear) he should be ok...


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## Michen (22 April 2020)

Bear cuddly cuteness levels earlier. What a dobbin. He actually pooed whilst lying down, not sure I’ve ever seen a horse do that!

Quadbikes tonight. Not bothered at all.


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## sky1000 (22 April 2020)

Oh my!  Well you may think he is second to Boggle, but it's pretty clear what he thinks about you


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## Upthecreek (22 April 2020)

Gosh he’s adorable. He’s pulling out all the stops to make sure you can’t ‘bear’ to part with him.


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## NLPM (22 April 2020)

Aww, I am reading about Bear for the first time and he's lovely! I especially love those last photos. And what a great yard... I'm so envious of your facilities.


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## ycbm (22 April 2020)

He's a dude!

.


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## Michen (23 April 2020)

He does cute very well, I’ve never had such a soppy horse.


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## RHM (23 April 2020)

Oh he is just such a cutie! 😍


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## Michen (23 April 2020)

And just loving the cows this morning!!


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## RHM (23 April 2020)

I don’t believe for one minute you are going to be able to let this little dude go!


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## Michen (23 April 2020)

RHM said:



			I don’t believe for one minute you are going to be able to let this little dude go!
		
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he LOVES cows! Wants to stop and talk to all of them in fields, on track etc.

weirdly Boggle is exactly the same. Is it an Irish thing!?


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## Michen (23 April 2020)

RHM said:



			I don’t believe for one minute you are going to be able to let this little dude go!
		
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Shhhh. Make me an offer


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## ihatework (23 April 2020)

Michen said:



			he LOVES cows! Wants to stop and talk to all of them in fields, on track etc.

weirdly Boggle is exactly the same. Is it an Irish thing!?
		
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Don’t think so, my welsh fella likes to chat to cows too. In fact he’d stand there whilst they licked his face through the bars 🤣


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## Michen (23 April 2020)

ihatework said:



			Don’t think so, my welsh fella likes to chat to cows too. In fact he’d stand there whilst they licked his face through the bars 🤣
	View attachment 45065

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Oh cuteeeee! Makes life so much easier when you hack through a dairy farm!


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## Michen (23 April 2020)

ihatework said:



			Don’t think so, my welsh fella likes to chat to cows too. In fact he’d stand there whilst they licked his face through the bars 🤣
	View attachment 45065

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Also did your chicks hatch? I just had one this morning.. a full week after the other two!


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## ihatework (23 April 2020)

Michen said:



			Also did your chicks hatch? I just had one this morning.. a full week after the other two!
		
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A week!!! Wow

Mine are due this weekend, 5/6 have developed but as I used shipped eggs all have deformed air sacks so it’s a wait and see game now


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## Michen (23 April 2020)

ihatework said:



			A week!!! Wow

Mine are due this weekend, 5/6 have developed but as I used shipped eggs all have deformed air sacks so it’s a wait and see game now
		
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Mine were somewhat, er, haphazard so didn't really have any idea what would happen when. I assumed all had died and was about to chuck them all but saw one egg rocking in the incubator so kept them going!


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## ihatework (23 April 2020)

Michen said:



			Mine were somewhat, er, haphazard so didn't really have any idea what would happen when. I assumed all had died and was about to chuck them all but saw one egg rocking in the incubator so kept them going!
		
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Did you candle them? It’s absolutely fascinating. Can’t believe I’ve gone through life without knowing all this!!


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## ycbm (23 April 2020)

Michen said:



			Shhhh. Make me an offer 

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I couldn't afford him.

.


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## Michen (23 April 2020)

ihatework said:



			Did you candle them? It’s absolutely fascinating. Can’t believe I’ve gone through life without knowing all this!!
		
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I did but tbh everything I read seemed conflicting. All I could see with mine was a dark area and the air sac. I was worried they were rotting and would explode....

Not convinced they will hatch but we shall see.

Yes it is! I'm sad I didn't see this one hatch, it's an ugly little one, had done it by the time I came downstairs this am.


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## Michen (23 April 2020)

ycbm said:



			I couldn't afford him.

.
		
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Well if I get desperate and furloughed...!


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## FinnBobs (23 April 2020)

I really do love Mr Bear!


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## Michen (23 April 2020)

NLPM said:



			Aww, I am reading about Bear for the first time and he's lovely! I especially love those last photos. And what a great yard... I'm so envious of your facilities.
		
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It's a fantastic yard. My old Connemara, Basil, is buried there and I'm very good friends with the owners who I lived with for a year- it's a happy place to be!


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## ElleSkywalker (23 April 2020)

Love reading the updated adventures of the Bay Boyz 🤗 

Can Bog and Bear send my cobbler a postcard saying cows aren't scary please? She is horrified by them and gives them the must disgusted glares....dispite the fact she rather looks like one 😂 Its not ideal when we live opposite a dairy farm and have feilds of them lining the road we have to walk down to get anywhere 😂🤦‍♀️


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## Chippers1 (23 April 2020)

He is so cute! I also manged to get some photos with a lying down chilled out Buzz yesterday  
I love your updates and adventures, Buzz would freak out at a tarp.

I feel like I can join in a bit as I have a connie that begins with a B....he is grey though!


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## alexomahony (23 April 2020)

Although Bog is quite clearly your horse of a lifetime...I possibly think Bear might be your 'heart horse' <3 He looks like a lovely person - I can't wait to see how it goes!


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## ycbm (23 April 2020)

Michen said:



			Well if I get desperate and furloughed...!
		
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Then I'm first in the queue!

But seriously, if that's the case I will willingly take him and keep him for you until you are back on your feet. 

.


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## Michen (23 April 2020)

ycbm said:



			Then I'm first in the queue!

But seriously, if that's the case I will willingly take him and keep him for you until you are back on your feet.

.
		
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a lovely offer, thank you. Xx


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## Michen (27 April 2020)

Bear is a proper resident now he has a stable! Lovely to have him in his own house he seemed genuinely quite chuffed. Was very settled in pen but did let out the odd sad whinny when a horse walked past. He also found it entertaining to bronc around it when I was walking Bog so glad he won’t be able to do that now  Also had his teeth done, no sedation needed stood like a rock even with just EDT in pen with him.

More long reining, between Bog and Bear today I’ve walked 2.5 hours and now need a glass of wine!


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## Michen (30 April 2020)

Never failing to make me laugh 😂🤦‍♀️ like lady and the tramp!


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## ITPersonnage (4 May 2020)

Ahem, taps patiently at keyboard


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## Michen (4 May 2020)

ITPersonnage said:



			Ahem, taps patiently at keyboard
		
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Hehe I’m sorry!! I don’t have any interesting updates, just long reining and more long reining for miles and miles. Introducing trot work now with tons of transitions. So just a few boring pics.. I think he is looking a v nice shape though


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## Lindylouanne (4 May 2020)

His feet are looking a much better shape already. Amazing what taking their shoes off can do.


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## Trouper (4 May 2020)

You need a head cam then we can all go on long-reining walks with you - not as part of OUR exercise you understand


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## ElleSkywalker (4 May 2020)

Love that last pic 'oh hi mum'


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## Michen (4 May 2020)

ElleSkywalker said:



			Love that last pic 'oh hi mum'
		
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He always does that if he has to do a half transition that’s longer than norm, wants to know what the problem is 😂


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## ITPersonnage (4 May 2020)

Love him (and t'other one...) Not that I'm needy or anything (!!) but since I'm now horseless I have to get my fix from you  Thanks as ever for posting.


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## sky1000 (4 May 2020)

Ooh something about his eye and the surrounds reminds me massively of the second time I rode (on a horse called Paddy in Ireland) in 1971! (I have a photo not a photographic memory)


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## Jayzee (5 May 2020)

He is looking fab!!! I think he looks like he has filled out a little and looks stronger


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## Michen (13 May 2020)

It’s such hard work being Bear, he goes to bed when he comes in but of course has to still be eating! Need to think about getting back on him soon for a summer of hacking, His feet are coming along nicely but it’s been hard getting a heel first landing in fact we are only just flat now and it’s not 100% consistent. Still battling thrush in front feet, the frogs are really tatty though the deep clefts are much better. We are pretty A1 now with bikes, dogs, traffic, open field trotting (all on long reins) with tons of transitions), standing for indefinite periods of time, passing other horses, etc etc. He is no longer remotely jumpy or quivery in and around the yard. Looking forward to riding again!


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## KEK (13 May 2020)

Michen said:



			It’s such hard work being Bear, he goes to bed when he comes in but of course has to still be eating! Need to think about getting back on him soon for a summer of hacking, His feet are coming along nicely but it’s been hard getting a heel first landing in fact we are only just flat now and it’s not 100% consistent. Still battling thrush in front feet, the frogs are really tatty though the deep clefts are much better. We are pretty A1 now with bikes, dogs, traffic, open field trotting (all on long reins) with tons of transitions), standing for indefinite periods of time, passing other horses, etc etc. He is no longer remotely jumpy or quivery in and around the yard. Looking forward to riding again!








View attachment 47097
View attachment 47098
View attachment 47099
View attachment 47100

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He’s so friggin cute! Here’s to a summer/winter of hacking, mines doing the same thing


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## Michen (13 May 2020)

KEK said:



			He’s so friggin cute! Here’s to a summer/winter of hacking, mines doing the same thing 

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Isn’t he just! I’m really fond of him. But I’m also realistic and do think I’ll sell or loan him. The downside re selling is that he won’t have done as much as I’d have imagined, really I should have been getting him ready enough this summer to do some dressage/sj/HT at the end of it. But I am hopeful if I do sell him someone will appreciate a young horse that’s been bought on super carefully and slowly with every groundwork box ticked that you could imagine, good “rehabbed” feet, solid out hacking etc- rather than rushed around an SJ course for a video!

I would love to think I could keep and ride two horses which feels easy right now with lockdown but winter will be another matter. Have also bought a springer spaniel puppy and want to spend and invest plenty of time with correct training 😁


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## Annagain (13 May 2020)

If only he was 6" bigger I'd be snapping him up with that CV.


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## Michen (13 May 2020)

annagain said:



			If only he was 6" bigger I'd be snapping him up with that CV.
		
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Poor dude can’t help being a short arse! 😂😂 He’s bum high- definitely going to grow a little!!


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## ElleSkywalker (13 May 2020)

Doesn't Bog know there is pandemic on and he shouldn't be going round licking things? 😳


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## Annagain (13 May 2020)

Michen said:



			Poor dude can’t help being a short arse! 😂😂 He’s bum high- definitely going to grow a little!!
		
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It's my problem not his! I'd squish the poor sod.


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## Michen (13 May 2020)

ElleSkywalker said:



			Doesn't Bog know there is pandemic on and he shouldn't be going round licking things? 😳
		
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I'll tell him, don't be fooled it's no sign of affection it's him telling Bear that he owns his ass!


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## Michen (13 May 2020)

annagain said:



			It's my problem not his! I'd squish the poor sod.
		
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The way I'm going (on crumpet no. 5 today!) I will too!!!


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## KEK (13 May 2020)

Michen said:



			Isn’t he just! I’m really fond of him. But I’m also realistic and do think I’ll sell or loan him. The downside re selling is that he won’t have done as much as I’d have imagined, really I should have been getting him ready enough this summer to do some dressage/sj/HT at the end of it. But I am hopeful if I do sell him someone will appreciate a young horse that’s been bought on super carefully and slowly with every groundwork box ticked that you could imagine, good “rehabbed” feet, solid out hacking etc- rather than rushed around an SJ course for a video!

I would love to think I could keep and ride two horses which feels easy right now with lockdown but winter will be another matter. Have also bought a springer spaniel puppy and want to spend and invest plenty of time with correct training 😁
		
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Ooh goodness you will be busy ! Working or show line Springer?


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## Michen (13 May 2020)

KEK said:



			Ooh goodness you will be busy ! Working or show line Springer?
		
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Working  Gamekeepers litter. Being picked up Sat!


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## Tarragon (13 May 2020)

glutton for punishment I think


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## Michen (13 May 2020)

Tarragon said:



			glutton for punishment I think 

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Totally!! Luckily Boggle is the best horse ever with dogs!


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## RHM (13 May 2020)

He is adorable!! Working dogs are the best, I have two working cockers and I wouldn’t swap them for anything!


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## Michen (13 May 2020)

RHM said:



			He is adorable!! Working dogs are the best, I have two working cockers and I wouldn’t swap them for anything!
		
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Great to hear! I intend to work her, or at least train her to work, part of why I've always wanted a spaniel 

Very, very excited. I think a springer spaniel won't be too dissimilar to Boggle's personality


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## RHM (13 May 2020)

Michen said:



			Great to hear! I intend to work her, or at least train her to work, part of why I've always wanted a spaniel 

Very, very excited. I think a springer spaniel won't be too dissimilar to Boggle's personality 

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Haha they will probably be very similar! Just don’t make the same mistake I did and fuss the puppy too much in front of him. Mine is great with all dogs bar mine, dreams of riding with my dog running alongside, shattered!


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## Michen (13 May 2020)

RHM said:



			Haha they will probably be very similar! Just don’t make the same mistake I did and fuss the puppy too much in front of him. Mine is great with all dogs bar mine, dreams of riding with my dog running alongside, shattered!
		
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No way!? Because horse is jealous?Bog is used to hacking with Labrador, he finds it very amusing!


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## HashRouge (13 May 2020)

If you do sell Bear, I wouldn't be at all surprised if someone on here wants him!


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## RHM (13 May 2020)

Michen said:



			No way!? Because horse is jealous?Bog is used to hacking with Labrador, he finds it very amusing!
		
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Yeah he really goes for him! Yet my mates German pointer and springer is perfectly acceptable. He is so annoying!


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## Michen (13 May 2020)

RHM said:



			Yeah he really goes for him! Yet my mates German pointer and springer is perfectly acceptable. He is so annoying!
		
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That’s bizarre! I would hope given Bog is a hunter whose never flicked an ear back to a hound that he wouldn’t dare!!


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## RHM (13 May 2020)

Michen said:



			That’s bizarre! I would hope given Bog is a hunter whose never flicked an ear back to a hound that he wouldn’t dare!!
		
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Hopefully you will be in luck! I really did rub it in that I had a cute new puppy, too busy making the dog safe around horses 🙈


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## DarcyPercy (13 May 2020)

Fantastic wee pup! You’ve made a fab choice with a springer (although I am bias as you can see in my thumbnail). I’ve got a 11 month old working cocker too - best decision we made! 🥰


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## Rosemary28 (13 May 2020)

HashRouge said:



			If you do sell Bear, I wouldn't be at all surprised if someone on here wants him!
		
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I think most of the forum want him already!


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## suebou (13 May 2020)

Michen said:



			Great to hear! I intend to work her, or at least train her to work, part of why I've always wanted a spaniel 

Very, very excited. I think a springer spaniel won't be too dissimilar to Boggle's personality 

Click to expand...

My husband thoroughly recommends Gundogs, their learning chain’ by joe Irving. It’s a bit old now, but still available and gives calm sensible advice for everyone hoping to have a reasonably well behaved gun dog.


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## KEK (13 May 2020)

He's gorgeous! I wouldn't rule out having a wocker for agility one day.. no one breeds working springers here. The nose is the challenge I believe.. But of course you are going to use his nose for what he is bred for


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## Michen (16 May 2020)

Got back on Bear for a hack in company and he was great! Then today I drove him up to the farm, only a minute in lorry for his long rein route just to check how he feels about travelling and also make him know he’s coming home. He’s never got on a vehicle and gone back to the same place the poor fella. He got off and his entire body was trembling, my heart absolutely broke for him! Travelled and loaded like a pro though.

Excuse my roots.. ya know.. lockdown- a killer for us fake blondes.


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## MrsMozart (16 May 2020)

Aw. That's really made me smile. Well done indeed  



And now I feel like I really need to crack on, somehow, with Titch...


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## SatansLittleHelper (16 May 2020)

Good boy Bear. He sounds like he's coming on nicely....you can't possibly still be thinking of selling..?? 😂😂


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## ElleSkywalker (16 May 2020)

What a clever Bear 😍🥰 I know what you mean about roots....am in serious danger of finding out what my natural hair colour is 😳


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## Upthecreek (16 May 2020)

Oh bless him to be so worried about the travelling (or what’s at the destination) but still behave so well. From what you’ve said he’s so clever that he will learn very quickly that travelling can be to do fun things and doesn’t always mean a new home and big life change. I think he will bond to you very closely, which may make parting with him very difficult. He is just gorgeous.


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## Michen (16 May 2020)

Also.... she is ADORABLE.


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## scats (16 May 2020)

Welcome to motherhood! Gorgeous pup!


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## Jayzee (16 May 2020)

OMG She is divine!


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## wren123 (16 May 2020)

She's lovely


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## Michen (16 May 2020)

Had to swap drivers so I could cuddle her. Omg, she is just divine!!!!!


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## RHM (16 May 2020)

Oh she is too much!! 😍😍


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## Michen (16 May 2020)

Upthecreek said:



			Oh bless him to be so worried about the travelling (or what’s at the destination) but still behave so well. From what you’ve said he’s so clever that he will learn very quickly that travelling can be to do fun things and doesn’t always mean a new home and big life change. I think he will bond to you very closely, which may make parting with him very difficult. He is just gorgeous.
		
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I agree! He’s somewhat adorable. He’s started doing this funny little chest wobble and head nod when I go up to his stable (particularly if I’ve just come from Boggles), going “yes yes please come to me”. Looks like one of those nodding dogs!


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## Michen (16 May 2020)

SatansLittleHelper said:



			Good boy Bear. He sounds like he's coming on nicely....you can't possibly still be thinking of selling..?? 😂😂
		
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We shall see. There’s no point deciding really as life has a way of doing that!!!


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## Upthecreek (16 May 2020)

What did you decide to name your beautiful pup?


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## Michen (16 May 2020)

Upthecreek said:



			What did you decide to name your beautiful pup?
		
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Still no name I can’t decide! Mia is out. berry still possibly. at the moment she’s “Bee!” her KC name is bracken sky.


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## Upthecreek (16 May 2020)

Michen said:



			Still no name I can’t decide! Mia is out. berry still possibly. at the moment she’s “Bee!” her KC name is bracken sky.
		
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I think Bee suits her and if she is a typical spaniel she will be a busy bee!


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## Lindylouanne (16 May 2020)

Ooh Bracken is perfect, Bee (B) for short 😁


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## Michen (22 May 2020)

Bear is in the dog house. As some of you may have read (I think I mentioned it!) I had an issue very early on- in March where he pulled away being led a few times and pissed off when there was something he didn't like (got spooked etc, or didn't really fancy coming in..). This was really quickly resolved using a pressure halter over the head collar with a long rope, he never succeeded in doing it again and hasn't attempted to whatsoever for at least 2 months.

They are on night time turnout now, it was windy and cold this am and I just used the normal head collar... well the little bugger got halfway across field with me leading him and then did his trick. I was so incensed, I can't believe he even "knew" he wasn't wearing it- especially given it's not even been activated for months!!!!! It just goes to show, bloody clever native ponies. Never given them an inch...

He is particularly good natured and never flicks back an ear at anything ever, but he really is a cheeky git!! 

I suppose I'll forgive him because look at that gorgeous soft eye (excuse my ugly mug- the animals photograph much better), and he was perfect afterwards for a long rein. Now I need to find the little barrel a saddle that fits- bring on 1st June, I have a feeling he will end up with something ridiculous like an Equipe!!!


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## Roxylola (22 May 2020)

Oh and little spanner too 🥰
That's naughty, but so bloody clever!


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## Michen (25 May 2020)

Good Bear pony. Third hack back under saddle, he’s being a very chilled boy. Tried another saddle and felt much better in it (for me- he felt the same!).  Am looking forward to being able to hack him out with his brother, hopefully soon ish!!

Hope everyone’s had a nice bank hol.


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## CanteringCarrot (25 May 2020)

This thread is not helping my deep want for a Connemara 😏

Glad bear redeemed himself with a nice back.


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## Michen (25 May 2020)

CanteringCarrot said:



			This thread is not helping my deep want for a Connemara 😏

Glad bear redeemed himself with a nice back.
		
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Hehe. Are you properly looking!?


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## CanteringCarrot (25 May 2020)

Michen said:



			Hehe. Are you properly looking!?
		
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I look, but only "window shop" since I know I cannot dedicate the money and time to another equine. So just my PRE for now. I do ride a Connemara that belongs to the YO - a schooling pony. Since there were no riding lessons due to COVID and they're just now slowly starting up the pony wasn't being worked and I had some spare time, so why not? Love her and we've been having so much fun! I don't tell her, but I find her cheeky personality and antics entertaining 😆


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## Michen (28 May 2020)

When your ponies just can’t quite contain themselves for a family photo!!! Boggle wanting to get closer to Pepper and Bear outraged that he can’t get more involved.


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## HashRouge (28 May 2020)

Michen said:



			When your ponies just can’t quite contain themselves for a family photo!!! Boggle wanting to get closer to Pepper and Bear outraged that he can’t get more involved.

View attachment 48361

Click to expand...

That is a great picture! I honestly can't tell your boys apart at all in a lot of photos, from certain angles they look very similar!


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## KEK (28 May 2020)

Too cute! How is the puppy going?


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## Michen (28 May 2020)

HashRouge said:



			That is a great picture! I honestly can't tell your boys apart at all in a lot of photos, from certain angles they look very similar!
		
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Hehe they are very different close up really, you could sometimes be mistaken face forward over the stable door.

must get a proper photo of them both stood up side by side!


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## Michen (28 May 2020)

KEK said:



			Too cute! How is the puppy going?
		
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She’s brilliant. Hard work as expected but brill.  Tbh she’s just had to slot in with my life so that means coming to yard, sometimes being left in car in crate with door open,  sometimes left tied up outside stable whilst I go backwards and forwards and do jobs (never pulls or whines and just settles down on some fleecy bedding Or), when the horses are all away she follows me around everywhere whilst I do stuff. I leave her at home for a bit as well and sometimes I’m just in the garden So she thinks she’s alone and I can listen for any whining and she seems very content. I decided to let her on the floor at yard sooner than end of vacc course as all dogs on yard are vaccinated and it’s been super socialisation for her.

She’s best mates with the cat and they love snoozing in the sun together!


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## HashRouge (28 May 2020)

I absolutely can't with the puppy and cat photos, they are SO cute!! Please post more of them!!


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## KEK (29 May 2020)

Michen said:



			She’s brilliant. Hard work as expected but brill.  Tbh she’s just had to slot in with my life so that means coming to yard, sometimes being left in car in crate with door open,  sometimes left tied up outside stable whilst I go backwards and forwards and do jobs (never pulls or whines and just settles down on some fleecy bedding Or), when the horses are all away she follows me around everywhere whilst I do stuff. I leave her at home for a bit as well and sometimes I’m just in the garden So she thinks she’s alone and I can listen for any whining and she seems very content. I decided to let her on the floor at yard sooner than end of vacc course as all dogs on yard are vaccinated and it’s been super socialisation for her.

She’s best mates with the cat and they love snoozing in the sun together!

View attachment 48363
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Aww too cute. Sounds like she’s doing great!


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## Hannahgb (29 May 2020)

Oh my god the puppy and cat photos have killed me!! How gorgeous are they!!


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## Michen (29 May 2020)

Haha ok Bear can be made redundant from the thread and it’ll be Pepper and Bob instead!


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## palo1 (29 May 2020)

Michen said:



			She’s brilliant. Hard work as expected but brill.  Tbh she’s just had to slot in with my life so that means coming to yard, sometimes being left in car in crate with door open,  sometimes left tied up outside stable whilst I go backwards and forwards and do jobs (never pulls or whines and just settles down on some fleecy bedding Or), when the horses are all away she follows me around everywhere whilst I do stuff. I leave her at home for a bit as well and sometimes I’m just in the garden So she thinks she’s alone and I can listen for any whining and she seems very content. I decided to let her on the floor at yard sooner than end of vacc course as all dogs on yard are vaccinated and it’s been super socialisation for her.

She’s best mates with the cat and they love snoozing in the sun together!

View attachment 48363
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Sounds like perfect socialisation and training to me


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## Michen (29 May 2020)

Also look whose back in tack and looking smashing! No dope, can’t wait for saddle to be adjusted Monday and get back on board for a summer of hacking (albeit in walk-!to the pub as soon as they open!!)


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## Tarragon (29 May 2020)

As the owners of two properly hairy Exmoor ponies, i love the way you call your two magnificent beasts "native ponies" ... they are in a different league.


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## Michen (29 May 2020)

Tarragon said:



			As the owners of two properly hairy Exmoor ponies, i love the way you call your two magnificent beasts "native ponies" ... they are in a different league.
		
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Ha! Well Boggle would be very upset by that as he thinks he’s a thoroughbred. Bear is a true native chunk though just with a pulled mane and tail to disguise!


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## Michen (29 May 2020)

palo1 said:



			Sounds like perfect socialisation and training to me 

Click to expand...

what a rubbish home she has  rented and everything!!


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## Ambers Echo (29 May 2020)

Your puppy is so so gorgeous!


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## CanteringCarrot (29 May 2020)

OMG. What is like to have a nice cat? Mine are, erm, "independent"

The pup is absolutely adorable!


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## Michen (29 May 2020)

CanteringCarrot said:



			OMG. What is like to have a nice cat? Mine are, erm, "independent"

The pup is absolutely adorable!
		
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He’s just not a normal cat I swear. Honestly behaves like a dog. Woke up this morning to him pawing and meowing in my face to tell me he had a tick on his chin and needed it removing NOW.

I adore him, he’s so full of character.

And I really do NOT like cats and only got him to keep mice away!


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## ihatework (29 May 2020)

It’s so lovely when the cats and dogs get along. Mine are all adorable together too. One of my cats I swear thinks he is a dog, comes miles on walks and chases balls etc!
TBH I’ve only ever had one slightly manky cat, all the others have been sweet tempered, confident and friendly


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## Asha (29 May 2020)

The photo of the cat cuddling the pup is just fabulous . Seriously cute .
Bear is coming along lovely 😍 
You really can’t beat the cheek of the the Connie can you ? Our Connie x ID yearling is so damn cheeky , I’m not sure where the ID bit has gone . Caught her today with an empty shavings bag in her mouth chasing all the others around the field . Bag now retrieved and all other ponies now having a rest 😂😂


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## HashRouge (29 May 2020)

ihatework said:



			It’s so lovely when the cats and dogs get along. Mine are all adorable together too. One of my cats I swear thinks he is a dog, comes miles on walks and chases balls etc!
TBH I’ve only ever had one slightly manky cat, all the others have been sweet tempered, confident and friendly
		
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Ours have all been lovely too, so sweet and cuddly. Our current lump is very needy, which is great for me as I'm always in need of a cat cuddle!


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## Michen (29 May 2020)

Asha said:



			The photo of the cat cuddling the pup is just fabulous . Seriously cute .
Bear is coming along lovely 😍
You really can’t beat the cheek of the the Connie can you ? Our Connie x ID yearling is so damn cheeky , I’m not sure where the ID bit has gone . Caught her today with an empty shavings bag in her mouth chasing all the others around the field . Bag now retrieved and all other ponies now having a rest 😂😂
		
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No- you can’t. They are so cheeky!!!! That sounds very “native” from yours.  Long reining Bog was hilarious, he was so much worse behaved than 4 year old Bear in terms of manners. Snatching at grass at every opportunity and then ducking his head when he knew a whack on the neck was coming his way for it (I was leading, friend behind on long reins), with such a glint in his eye and his top lip all wiggly and petulant. No matter how many tickings off in various ways he got he still tried.

But, he’s 8 and he’s “made” and rightly or wrongly that means any antics are somewhat amusing because, well, it’s Boggle. I’ve created a monster


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## Michen (30 May 2020)

Is it sad to have had a little cry after a 20 min hack around for the first time properly since February? We’ve in hand walked for 100 hours and nearly 400 miles and being back on him was just the best feeling in the whole bloody world this morning!!!!!!

Meanwhile new shoes for Bear (last pic!) and he’s very happy, farrier didn’t think he was bruised at all just not coping with the stones with flat soles etc. Back to it tomorrow I hope!


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## Jeni the dragon (30 May 2020)

Perfectly understandable! He's looking great!


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## PurBee (30 May 2020)

Michen said:



			He’s just not a normal cat I swear. Honestly behaves like a dog. Woke up this morning to him pawing and meowing in my face to tell me he had a tick on his chin and needed it removing NOW.

I adore him, he’s so full of character.

And I really do NOT like cats and only got him to keep mice away!
		
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I have a cat just the same, acts like a dog! He comes on walks with us. Plays tag with the dogs. He’s one helluva hunter too...brings his kills home, drops them on the floor inside and shoots out the cat flap to go and hunt something else immediately after....never known a cat like him!

Although this morning we were greeted by a pile of sick containing many rodent bodies...he obviously went over his quota!


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## Michen (30 May 2020)

PurBee said:



			I have a cat just the same, acts like a dog! He comes on walks with us. Plays tag with the dogs. He’s one helluva hunter too...brings his kills home, drops them on the floor inside and shoots out the cat flap to go and hunt something else immediately after....never known a cat like him!

Although this morning we were greeted by a pile of sick containing many rodent bodies...he obviously went over his quota!
		
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Omg! Ha!!Bob brings them in live then spends all day trying to catch them


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## PurBee (30 May 2020)

Michen said:



			Omg! Ha!!Bob brings them in live then spends all day trying to catch them
		
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Lol! Theyre terrible Arent they!? Yesterday morning there was a bird flying around in the kitchen. Its got to the point now that i gingerly open the door to the kitchen every morning after waking wondering what on earth im going to be greeted with! 
New seat cushions were christened the other morning with a headless mouse! 
I think im going to be forced to lock the cat flap at night.... 😂


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## CanteringCarrot (30 May 2020)

It just feels so good to be on your own horse. I know Bear is technically your horse too, but I think you know what I mean! 

I really love the Connemara personality. The little mare I ride cracks me up because she is so nosy. When we pass things such as people cutting down trees, or kids on a trampoline in the middle of the forest, she just wants to look. Not in a scared way, but in a "hey, what they doin' over there, can we check it out, I've got to know!"
I've also had a conversation with her about staying out of my pockets. 

Love following your boys, they're both so beautiful too!


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## Michen (31 May 2020)

Getting very regular with these updates! Went out at the crack of dawn with Boggles sharer (who has stuck by him through his entire box rest despite being a lovely rider and more than able to find something she could actually ride!) and Bear. It was really special actually, we set ourselves the goal to spend the summer hacking them together and we’ve both worked hard to get them there.  Actually gave Boggle a 1ml of sedalin as he’s not on my list of trusted companions for Bear until he’s been turned out and chilled a bit.

Bear was very cheerful! He feels super chuffed with his new shoes I wish I had done it sooner tbh.

And a little video/photos of Pepper for anyone who needs some puppy cuteness..


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## Upthecreek (31 May 2020)

Must have been amazing to hack your boys out together and it looks like they are getting on brilliantly 💙 Pepper is just too cute. I need a puppy.


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## Pinkvboots (31 May 2020)

I think it's so Lovely to find someone to ride your horses that genuinely loves them probably as much as you do, I have a lovely girl help with mine we hack and school together its great, it's no wonder your so happy!


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## Michen (31 May 2020)

Pinkvboots said:



			I think it's so Lovely to find someone to ride your horses that genuinely loves them probably as much as you do, I have a lovely girl help with mine we hack and school together its great, it's no wonder your so happy!
		
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She absolutely adores him! She’s spent hours hand grazing him and she took him home to Cheshire for a month over Xmas when I was travelling. Plus we are now good mates so it’s great. I couldn’t have done all the groundwork with Bear without her either!

xx


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## Michen (31 May 2020)

Upthecreek said:



			Must have been amazing to hack your boys out together and it looks like they are getting on brilliantly 💙 Pepper is just too cute. I need a puppy.
		
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It really was!!! I hope I can work out a way to keep them both and not feel too pulled in too many directions ❤️


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## HashRouge (31 May 2020)

Oh I love the little and large picture of Pepper and the other spaniel, so cute!!!


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## KEK (31 May 2020)

Will you one day be able to have Pepper out with you too when you hack? That would be amazing. 
Great to have a fab friend so you can enjoy them together


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## Cloball (31 May 2020)

Love a cat/dog friendship my mum's cat and dog play games,go for their evening walk together and wander round side by side like the terrible twosome. 

Bear and Boggle looking soo good totally understandable cry.


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## splashgirl45 (31 May 2020)

lovely pics o them all, your puppy is adorable..


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## Michen (31 May 2020)

KEK said:



			Will you one day be able to have Pepper out with you too when you hack? That would be amazing.
Great to have a fab friend so you can enjoy them together 

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I hope so! Boggle is used to hacking with spaniels and I intend to train her thoroughly enough to have her go in front or behind and sit etc when required!


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## KEK (1 June 2020)

Michen said:



			I hope so! Boggle is used to hacking with spaniels and I intend to train her thoroughly enough to have her go in front or behind and sit etc when required!
		
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I would love to do that. Sadly, with snakes and baits here it's out of the question


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## Jayzee (1 June 2020)

Ahhhh your puppy is just perfect!!

Love the updates too!


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## Michen (2 June 2020)

Really enjoying Bear even if we are doing the same 50 min loop around the field (for Boggles benefit- for another couple of weeks!). He’s so much more chilled under saddle having started off a bit jumpy (checking girth, patting bum etc). Boggle is going out now in his small paddock/pen which was immensely difficult to build with a puppy thinking it was the best game ever!!

Brownie points if you can tell them apart tacked up 😂


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## chaps89 (2 June 2020)

Bear on the left, Boggle on the right? 
But they are frighteningly similar - good luck in winter if they're in a field together and have matching rugs and its dark - think I'd have no chance of getting the right one in 😂
Lovely to see them both back under saddle


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## HashRouge (2 June 2020)

Bear's on the left? I feel like he has a longer mane and forelock, but that might be wrong! Glad he is going so well


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## Michen (2 June 2020)

chaps89 said:



			Bear on the left, Boggle on the right? 
But they are frighteningly similar - good luck in winter if they're in a field together and have matching rugs and its dark - think I'd have no chance of getting the right one in 😂
Lovely to see them both back under saddle 

Click to expand...


Hehe yes correct. My mother couldn’t tell the difference!!! Bear is winning the tidy mane competition, god knows what Boggle is doing with his but it’s unfixable!


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## Michen (2 June 2020)

HashRouge said:



			Bear's on the left? I feel like he has a longer mane and forelock, but that might be wrong! Glad he is going so well 

Click to expand...

Indeed and more manageable! Bog sports a Mohawk


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## Roxylola (2 June 2020)

I was going with Bear left too, but on the basis of tack - plain bridle and fulmer says wobbly youngster, micklem/drop and a snaffle I presume the more established one


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## Michen (2 June 2020)

Roxylola said:



			I was going with Bear left too, but on the basis of tack - plain bridle and fulmer says wobbly youngster, micklem/drop and a snaffle I presume the more established one
		
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Aha, tbf they have whatever tack is to hand thrown on them... poor things!! aside from saddles though weirdly they both fit the GFS monarch which now fits a third connemara of mine!


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## DabDab (2 June 2020)

Aww, they are both looking fab 😍


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## alexomahony (3 June 2020)

They look great - and I also went off bridles to decide Bear was on the left  They look lovely <3


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## Errin Paddywack (3 June 2020)

I thought Bear to the left too.  I think Boggle has a slightly narrower forehead.


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## Annagain (3 June 2020)

I thought Bear on the left because I can see the remains of a clip and remember you clipped him not that long ago! He does look a little chunkier too. I think I would struggle to identify them if they were on their own though.


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## ycbm (3 June 2020)

I don't have any problem telling them apart 

.


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## splashgirl45 (3 June 2020)

who is the 3rd connie,  have i missed something?


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## Michen (3 June 2020)

splashgirl45 said:



			who is the 3rd connie,  have i missed something?
		
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My lovely Basil, who I lost to a broken leg during colic surgery. Pre Boggle!


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## splashgirl45 (3 June 2020)

ah, i thought you meant now, i remember basil he was just my type, very sad that you lost him


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## Pinkvboots (3 June 2020)

Your so getting into the matchy pony thing it's such great fun isn't it

I often get asked who I am riding by people and I think some people just think I have 1 horse but ride it a lot.


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## Michen (7 June 2020)

In the time it took me to get my tack Bear decided being ridden sounded like too much work. My god this horse loves a nap!

meanwhile having just purchased a new saddle Bog is on box rest awaiting a scan of his injured leg but different area- swelling and heat around suspensory beach/above fetlock joint. Not lame but it’s very hot. He’d just started going out in a small pen in the field. My god if he’s injured something else and has to go back in the box with rehab I’ll be devastated... but shall see what happens tomorrow.

and a Pepper photo because she’s too cute to leave out!


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## Jeni the dragon (7 June 2020)

Aww poor Bog! Hope it's something that will settle quickly. 
And your puppy is just sooo cute!


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## chaps89 (7 June 2020)

Pepper's grown!
Fingers crossed it's nothing too serious for Bog.


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## ycbm (7 June 2020)

Pinkvboots said:



			I often get asked who I am riding by people and I think some people just think I have 1 horse but ride it a lot.
		
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I've had that when one was chestnut and the other was black 🤣

Super cute Bear and Pup Michen!


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## Yeomans (8 June 2020)

Good luck for today


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## Michen (8 June 2020)

Thank you! x



Yeomans said:



			Good luck for today
		
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## RHM (8 June 2020)

Good luck with Bog today!! Got everything crossed for him! 🤞🤞


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## Michen (8 June 2020)

Oh bummer vet having to reschedule to tomorrow!!!!


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## CanteringCarrot (8 June 2020)

Good luck today...err..tomorrow! Saw your post as I was posting. 

My guy gave me a scare last year with swelling and heat in the same area. I envisioned all sorts of rehab and layup, but the ultrasound revealed a hematoma that quickly went away. Really hoping for something similar/simple in your case! Horses drive me nuts and I'm surprised I have no gray hair, tbh 😂


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## Pinkvboots (8 June 2020)

Good luck for tomorrow x


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## wren123 (8 June 2020)

Pepper is growing up, she's gorgeous!

Sorry to hear about bog, I hope it's nothing serious.


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## Ambers Echo (8 June 2020)

Lovely pictures. Hope all goes well tomorrow.


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## Yeomans (9 June 2020)

Good luck today


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## Errin Paddywack (9 June 2020)

Good luck, keeping everything crossed for good news.


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## Berpisc (9 June 2020)

Everything crossed for today


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## southerncomfort (9 June 2020)

Good luck with the vet Michen.


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## Michen (9 June 2020)

You guys are awesome- thanks.xx


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## DirectorFury (9 June 2020)

Good luck today Michen and Bog


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## Jayzee (9 June 2020)

Hope today went ok!


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## Michen (9 June 2020)

Bummer. Bog is more lame after flexion than he ever was with original injury. He’s torn some of the connective tissue right next to injury. Vet suspects an adhesion that’s ripped. Back in box for two weeks with a bit of in hand walking then re assess.  gutted


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## southerncomfort (9 June 2020)

Ah rubbish news. 😫

Really feel for you.


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## SEL (9 June 2020)

Michen said:



			Bummer. Bog is more lame after flexion than he ever was with original injury. He’s torn some of the connective tissue right next to injury. Vet suspects an adhesion that’s ripped. Back in box for two weeks with a bit of in hand walking then re assess.  gutted
		
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Gutted for you 😕


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## splashgirl45 (9 June 2020)

what bad luck,  such a shame as things seemed to be going well


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## Caol Ila (9 June 2020)

Ugh. Poor Boggle. That sucks.


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## Michen (9 June 2020)

Thanks guys. I’m sat in my car just having got back from the yard just sobbing tbh!

Appreciate there are worst things that can happen but FFS. It was going so well. He had supervised turnout and was doped the entire time I don’t even understand how


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## Amymay (9 June 2020)

Bugger 😟💕


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## ElleSkywalker (9 June 2020)




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## Wheels (9 June 2020)

Really sorry to hear you've had such a setback


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## Jayzee (9 June 2020)

I'm so sorry that is horrid news !


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## RHM (9 June 2020)

That’s seriously rubbish! Really sorry to hear this, so unlucky. X


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## OldNag (9 June 2020)

That's completely crap  x


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## Roxylola (9 June 2020)

Oh gutted for you x


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## HashRouge (9 June 2020)

Oh M I'm so sorry, I had everything crossed for Boggle xx


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## Michen (9 June 2020)

With seabiscuit in background- feels appropriate! 🤦‍♀️


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## CanteringCarrot (9 June 2020)

I'm so sorry. That's incredibly frustrating. I've seen this saying float around about how horse's won't break your heart (but men/boys will)... Oyyyy the person that came up with that clearly never owned a horse or owned an incredibly low maintenance one! 

I hope some positive progress can be noted over the next weeks.


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## Michen (9 June 2020)

Thanks guys. No idea what to think tbh, if he’s still as lame in two weeks vet thinks we are in trouble. If it settled quickly and he comes sound then vet thinks we can work back up to where we were before reasonably quickly (all things considered).

He did say that sometimes as a last resort they encourage adhesions to rip so that they can heal more correctly if they are still causing a niggle, but he was obviously a long way off this and you wouldn’t want/expect such a degree of lameness.

If we have to go back to square on I’m really not sure I can face putting Boggle back in a box for 3/4 months- But I suppose it’s the controlled structured walking that does the healing and turning away may not achieve that.


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## be positive (9 June 2020)

He had come so far and with all the care you have given him along with his impeccable behaviour should be well on the mend by now, fingers crossed it is just a bit of a tear that will be something and nothing, possibly part of the overall healing process.


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## Tiddlypom (10 June 2020)

I’m really sorry, Michen, that’s rubbish news after all your care and rehab. Hope it’s just a blip in his eventual full recovery.


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## Berpisc (10 June 2020)

Argh! So sorry you have had this setback. Lets hope it is a relatively minor one.


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## Trouper (10 June 2020)

Keep the faith - it may well come good but, if the worst happens, you know you have done everything you possibly could to help him.  I realise that this is no consolation now so just hang on in there for the time being.


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## wren123 (10 June 2020)

Oh no, I'm really sorry especially after you've been so careful with him. Let's hope it does improve quickly.


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## Errin Paddywack (10 June 2020)

This is so unfair after all the effort you have put in, hoping it resolves quickly and proves positive long term.


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## ycbm (10 June 2020)

Michen I'm so sorry to read your latest update  

Thank heavens you bought Bear and he can be some sort of consolation, if only by keeping you busy. 

.


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## Michen (10 June 2020)

Thanks guys. Have to say I feel really bloody shit today, I feel like I'm never going to get my horse properly back at the end of all of this- I suspect he's just going to be too fragile.


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## ycbm (10 June 2020)

Michen said:



			Thanks guys. Have to say I feel really bloody shit today, I feel like I'm never going to get my horse properly back at the end of all of this- I suspect he's just going to be too fragile.
		
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I don't want to like this M. You've every right to feel like shit and spend the day crying into a puppy.  I hope you feel better about it all soon.  

.


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## HashRouge (10 June 2020)

Massive hugs M, I really I have got everything crossed for Bog (I think we all do!) xxx


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## Tarragon (10 June 2020)

Sorry to hear that news! i have my fingers crossed that he will mend.


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## KEK (10 June 2020)

So sorry to hear the news about Bog, you were doing everything so carefully and I was thinking that I liked your plan, vs just "turn away" (I'm a rehab vet for dogs and it made sense to me ). 
Hoping it is not something too major, will he be scanned again?


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## MuddyTB (10 June 2020)

Sorry to hear this, keeping everything crossed for Bog.


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## Michen (10 June 2020)

ycbm said:



			I don't want to lie this M. You've every right to feel like shit and spend the day crying into a puppy.  I hope you feel better about it all soon.

.
		
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I know this sounds super petulant and ungrateful but however nice Bear is I’m not even sure I can be arsed at the moment. At the end of the day it’s only Boggle I really want to ride and faff with.

Am seriously wondering whether I just forget the idea of riding etc at the moment (Boggle depending), and just enjoy puppy and puppy training.. and focus my efforts and time  100% on Bog.

I enjoyed Bear when I thought I had Bog to go back to, weirdly. Poor Bear deserves to be someone’s absolute no.1.


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## SatansLittleHelper (10 June 2020)

That's completely shit, so sorry Michen. Will keep everything crossed that Boggle comes good again xxxxx


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## Michen (10 June 2020)

SatansLittleHelper said:



			That's completely shit, so sorry Michen. Will keep everything crossed that Boggle comes good again xxxxx
		
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Thanks. Don’t know wtf is wrong with me I’m more upset than when he did the original sodding injury!


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## Roxylola (10 June 2020)

Take a bit of a break if you need to michen. Bear wont take any harm from being left out to be a horse for a while


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## Michen (10 June 2020)

Roxylola said:



			Take a bit of a break if you need to michen. Bear wont take any harm from being left out to be a horse for a while
		
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True though I worry about keeping on top of his weight, this rain, grass etc so do feel the pressure to keep him doing something I suppose.


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## SatansLittleHelper (10 June 2020)

Michen said:



			Thanks. Don’t know wtf is wrong with me I’m more upset than when he did the original sodding injury!
		
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Hardly surprising after how hard you're working with him. It's soul destroying when you get so far. Eat a ton of ice cream and chocolate then cuddle the puppy ❤❤


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## HashRouge (10 June 2020)

Michen said:



			I know this sounds super petulant and ungrateful but however nice Bear is I’m not even sure I can be arsed at the moment. At the end of the day it’s only Boggle I really want to ride and faff with.

Am seriously wondering whether I just forget the idea of riding etc at the moment (Boggle depending), and just enjoy puppy and puppy training.. and focus my efforts and time  100% on Bog.

I enjoyed Bear when I thought I had Bog to go back to, weirdly. Poor Bear deserves to be someone’s absolute no.1.
		
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I'm sure part of this will be influenced by how upset you are about Bog though - give yourself a few days off and see how you feel. You might find that you are keen to get going with Bear again. And if you're not it doesn't matter - no-one will think any less of you if you decide he's not for you and you'd rather sell him.


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## Leo Walker (10 June 2020)

Sometimes adhesions do form and just tear. Doesnt mean you have done anything wrong or that Bog has done anything to cause it. Be kind to yourself and give yourself some time. Restrict bears grazing and give him some down time. My extremely good doer has been off since corona started and has lost weight, so they don't need to work to keep weight off.


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## Michen (10 June 2020)

Thanks guys. I've actually put an advert up for Bear on one of the cheaper websites for silly money- the markets so bonkers who knows I may get it. Am going to see, if I got that sort of money for him it would be mad not to and I could buy myself something cheaper in Autumn to hunt all winter. I haven't seen any connemara youngsters as nice looking or moving as him for sale already imported at all so you never know. It was something I was pondering anyway a few weeks ago.

I probably seem really fickle (and probably am!).


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## Rosemary28 (10 June 2020)

I’m sorry about Bog, you must be so disappointed ☹️


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## Roxylola (10 June 2020)

That money might in the longer term come in really handy towards something for Bog, you've done a good job on little Bear and it could be an ideal time to find him a good home


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## Red-1 (10 June 2020)

I am so sorry to hear about Boggle. I would not despair yet, I thin it is not uncommon for them to have a glitch or two on the way and still come good. X


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## Michen (10 June 2020)

Puppy cuddles are out. She’s 99% reliable house training wise now but obviously decided she didn’t want to go out in the rain so has just done a massive smelly dump right by the (open) back door on a rug. 😂🤦‍♀️

The cat is the only animal I want to cuddle now- he’s delighted!!


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## Asha (10 June 2020)

Selling Bear at the moment from a financial perspective could be the right move. As long as it for that reason, its easy to make rash decisions when you are sad. Ive done it , lost loads and regretted it.

Try not to worry too much at this stage about Bog, go with the vets guidance and see how he is in 2 weeks. He may just start to look a little better, chin up x


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## Bellaboo18 (10 June 2020)

Sorry to here about Bog. 
I think you've done the sensible thing. The market is booming (and I imagine won't be for long), you don't have to sell but can look at your options. 
I know how you feel about Boggle though, I had a terrible year with my exracer last year, just as I thought we'd cracked it we'd be back to square one. It's emotionally zapping! She's sound now but... we'll see.


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## Michen (10 June 2020)

Thanks all. I doubt I’ll even get a phone call for a 7.5k asking price but ya never know, and that’s kind of the point. It’s got to be silly enough money to be worth it.

Will get him going in the school over the next few weeks as well.


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## NinjaPony (10 June 2020)

Very sorry about Boggle. It's gutting to get so far, and then have another major setback. Try not to look too far ahead, just take each week as it comes. Re Bear, I would see how you feel in a few days time. Nothing wrong with selling if that feels like the right thing to do, equally nothing wrong with keeping him as a riding option but turning him away for a few weeks while you wrap your head around the situation.


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## Jeni the dragon (10 June 2020)

Huge hugs. 
I really hope it's just a short blip and he's back to where he was soon. I think the whole situation can make dealing with everything more difficult.


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## alexomahony (10 June 2020)

Just catching up with all this and I'm really sorry to read about Bog  I think others have given great advice - take a few days and go from there x


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## ycbm (10 June 2020)

Michen said:



			Puppy cuddles are out. She’s 99% reliable house training wise now but obviously decided she didn’t want to go out in the rain so has just done a massive smelly dump right by the (open) back door on a rug. 😂🤦‍♀️

The cat is the only animal I want to cuddle now- he’s delighted!!
		
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Don't they choose their moments! 

.


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## ycbm (10 June 2020)

Michen said:



			Thanks guys. I've actually put an advert up for Bear on one of the cheaper websites for silly money- the markets so bonkers who knows I may get it. Am going to see, if I got that sort of money for him it would be mad not to and I could buy myself something cheaper in Autumn to hunt all winter. I haven't seen any connemara youngsters as nice looking or moving as him for sale already imported at all so you never know. It was something I was pondering anyway a few weeks ago.

I probably seem really fickle (and probably am!).
		
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Not at all fickle,   he isn't pulling your heart strings,  he's worth a lot of money,  you're short of commission payments because of the virus and heaven knows what the future is since you sell into hospitality at the moment.  That sounds like an eminently practical suggestion to me,  and I hope he sells.  

.


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## be positive (10 June 2020)

Michen said:



			Thanks guys. I've actually put an advert up for Bear on one of the cheaper websites for silly money- the markets so bonkers who knows I may get it. Am going to see, if I got that sort of money for him it would be mad not to and I could buy myself something cheaper in Autumn to hunt all winter. I haven't seen any connemara youngsters as nice looking or moving as him for sale already imported at all so you never know. It was something I was pondering anyway a few weeks ago.

I probably seem really fickle (and probably am!).
		
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I think that makes sense, Bear will not be ready to hunt properly, he could be in a home that really loves him the way you love Bog and a cheap, possibly less classy, stop gap would give you low maintenance to enjoy, it is not fickle to change your mind once in a while.


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## ElleSkywalker (10 June 2020)

*checks down back of sofa for 7.5k*

Good idea to have him advertised as if someone wants him then the extra cash will come in handy am sure, but if not he's there to do as much or as little as you want with


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## FlyingCircus (10 June 2020)

I'm really sorry to hear about Bog. I saw your ad for Bear and suspected something was up.

Possibly worth bearing in mind that when you really want to sell him a drop in price may raise question marks over his soundness/suitability as that's what I tend to think when horses have had a fairly substantial price drop.


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## Bernster (10 June 2020)

I think its telling that you have written up and posted a sale ad and didn’t change your mind. That suggests you are ok with it, although that might get tested if you get some calls/interest!

You are having a tough time though and things are so bizarre right now, that I wouldn’t do anything too drastic too quickly though. Maybe take some time out, just enjoy their company, no pressure on any of you, and allow yourself to process the latest.


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## IrishMilo (10 June 2020)

FlyingCircus said:



			Possibly worth bearing in mind that when you really want to sell him a drop in price may raise question marks over his soundness/suitability as that's what I tend to think when horses have had a fairly substantial price drop.
		
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Me too. Saying that, I don't doubt anyone would blink twice at paying 5k even for a lame Connie these days. It's bonkers.


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## Michen (10 June 2020)

Thanks guys. Amazed as ever at the support on here- even when you’ve all followed Bear so far no one has done anything but be supportive about a possible sale sooner than expected as well. 

His advert (on nfed) is a bit shoddy tbh, I need some videos of him loose and also over a fence I guess?

FC- I do get your point re price. I guess I’m not toooo bothered about being punchy re price and hedging my bets even if I have to drop massively and it looks a bit bad because even if it made some people suspicious, if I really needed to shift him I’m sure I could get 5k and that wouldn’t be disastrous. 


I don’t need to shift him at the moment at all, and the price tag is probably silly, so if I have no enquiries with say a week or I feel differently I’ll take it down and start again in a month or so properly on horsequest.


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## Michen (10 June 2020)

Ha Irishmilo- as above! Same thoughts.


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## Michen (10 June 2020)

ycbm said:



			Not at all fickle,   he isn't pulling your heart strings,  he's worth a lot of money,  you're short of commission payments because of the virus and heaven knows what the future is since you sell into hospitality at the moment.  That sounds like an eminently practical suggestion to me,  and I hope he sells.  

.
		
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I’m not sure how fond I am of him, I do remember advertising Boggle when it seemed he would never travel alone. I had so much interest and felt like an idiot as I wouldn’t let anyone view, there was something in my gut telling me no. And I actually intensely disliked Boggle at that time. I really like Bear, I can’t say I love him because I think that comes with time and adventures together, I wonder if I’d cracked on and been out doing little bits with him all summer I’d feel differently. 



be positive said:



			I think that makes sense, Bear will not be ready to hunt properly, he could be in a home that really loves him the way you love Bog and a cheap, possibly less classy, stop gap would give you low maintenance to enjoy, it is not fickle to change your mind once in a while.
		
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Yes exactly. It just seems sensible. I posted a nice TB mare hunt horse in PD’s thread and thought I could have fun over winter on something like that. Although whether I want to feed my hunting addition in the knowledge I will never “properly” hunt Boggle again is another matter!!!!


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## Rosemary28 (10 June 2020)

I mean I can't speak for everyone else, but a tiny selfish part of me is sad you are selling him because I am having a lovely time following his journey with you . But at the same time, it's what is right for you. It's not fickle, and it seems like the sensible option at the moment given everything that is going on both with Bog and with the world at large.


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## be positive (10 June 2020)

Regarding the price and maybe dropping later, as long as you do not advertise him all over the place then miss a few when you want to remove it/ change the details/ price there should be no problem with people noticing, a few might but in the overall scheme of things they will not affect who does respond to a new ad, people are not all as on the ball with picking up this type of thing so I don't see it as an issue.


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## ihatework (10 June 2020)

be positive said:



			Regarding the price and maybe dropping later, as long as you do not advertise him all over the place then miss a few when you want to remove it/ change the details/ price there should be no problem with people noticing, a few might but in the overall scheme of things they will not affect who does respond to a new ad, people are not all as on the ball with picking up this type of thing so I don't see it as an issue.
		
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And by that time he will have done more anyway, so a price drop might not be justified anyway. He will just be more attractive at the current price.

I wouldn’t fret, things happen for a reason and it’s a nice position to be in, not needing to sell.


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## Michen (10 June 2020)

Yep I’m only advertising on NFED and replying to a few Facebook wanted ads. I see horse quest as the “proper” place to advertise a reasonably expensive horse so I’ll try and crack on over the next few weeks and then at least if I still feel the same I can advertise with some ridden pics in the school etc. 

What would you expect to see from a just 4 year old in the school? He’s not going to be in any sort of frame, just taking the bit forward in all three paces I would assume is acceptable?


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## Hormonal Filly (10 June 2020)

Hes a super sort, I'm sure your get that kind of money for him. A friend has just sold a gelding for 6k, far less quality than Bear and sold within a couple of days!

The market has gone mental.. PS. So sorry to hear about Boggle


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## Michen (10 June 2020)

ForbiddenHorse said:



			Hes a super sort, I'm sure your get that kind of money for him. A friend has just sold a gelding for 6k, far less quality than Bear and sold within a couple of days!

The market has gone mental..
		
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Blimey. A green youngster? I just put a post on a FB group and deleted within in a couple of minutes after I was inundated with messages from people saying budget is 4K!


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## Bernster (10 June 2020)

Quick google brought up at least a page of young connies at 7.5k!  Prob More I just didn’t scroll onto page 2.


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## ihatework (10 June 2020)

Michen said:



			Yep I’m only advertising on NFED and replying to a few Facebook wanted ads. I see horse quest as the “proper” place to advertise a reasonably expensive horse so I’ll try and crack on over the next few weeks and then at least if I still feel the same I can advertise with some ridden pics in the school etc. 

What would you expect to see from a just 4 year old in the school? He’s not going to be in any sort of frame, just taking the bit forward in all three paces I would assume is acceptable?
		
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I would expect him in a frame, just an age appropriate one. Accepting the bit with an open neck to the contact. 
I would expect him to be able to bend both ways, respond to the leg, maintain a semblance of balance between paces (green wobble here and there fine).


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## Michen (10 June 2020)

ihatework said:



			I would expect him in a frame, just an age appropriate one. Accepting the bit with an open neck to the contact.
I would expect him to be able to bend both ways, respond to the leg, maintain a semblance of balance between paces (green wobble here and there fine).
		
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Yeah- we have some work to do!!! My intention was always to get Boggles jockey on him to school.


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## Peregrine Falcon (10 June 2020)

Sorry to hear about Bog. My mare hadn't yet done anything to warrant time off for summer but I feel it is looming. 

Fingers crossed for a healing 2 weeks.

*trots off to NFED*


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## IrishMilo (10 June 2020)

Michen said:



			What would you expect to see from a just 4 year old in the school? He’s not going to be in any sort of frame, just taking the bit forward in all three paces I would assume is acceptable?
		
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When I got mine a few years ago he was 4.5 so a bit older, but he was established at a very basic level in the school (walk, trot & canter in a very wobbly frame and a bit tense) and was popping jumps happily. I got him for 3.5k which seems unreal given today's prices.


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## wills_91 (10 June 2020)

Sorry to hear about Bog. I follow your threads but rarely post. I have enjoyed watching your progress with Bear, firm believer in everything working out for the right reason

*trots off to put on lottery*


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## EventingMum (10 June 2020)

So sorry about Boggle, I may be wrong but is your Bear advert possibly just a knee jerk reaction to the bad news about Boggle? I would give yourself a couple of weeks to see how things are then before making any definite decisions as your disappointment is very raw just now. You're doing a great job with Bear and he can only increase in value if you keep on as you are. Obviously, if you needed money at this point in time it would be very different. Whatever you decide good luck to Boggle and hopefully one as nice as Bear will have an exciting future either with you or someone else.


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## indie1282 (10 June 2020)

Michen said:



			Yep I’m only advertising on NFED and replying to a few Facebook wanted ads. I see horse quest as the “proper” place to advertise a reasonably expensive horse so I’ll try and crack on over the next few weeks and then at least if I still feel the same I can advertise with some ridden pics in the school etc.

What would you expect to see from a just 4 year old in the school? He’s not going to be in any sort of frame, just taking the bit forward in all three paces I would assume is acceptable?
		
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I think for £7.5k I would want a 4 year old to work in the school in all 3 places, not necessarily in a consistent outline but I would like the horse to offer softness/contact if asked. I would also expect it to pop a few small jumps.


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## Michen (10 June 2020)

indie1282 said:



			I think for £7.5k I would want a 4 year old to work in the school in all 3 places, not necessarily in a consistent outline but I would like the horse to offer softness/contact if asked. I would also expect it to pop a few small jumps.
		
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Yep fair enough. He'd certainly pop the jumps he's never had any waryness or needed any encourgement over poles etc. I do need to get him in the school and I need to do that anyway regardless but I doubt my own ability to school a baby and want Boggle's fab jockey involved. She's back around next sunday.


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## TheMule (10 June 2020)

Personally I would take the ad down until he's been in the school a few times and is ready to try


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## Michen (10 June 2020)

TheMule said:



			Personally I would take the ad down until he's been in the school a few times and is ready to try
		
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I don’t think a couple of sessions in the school will make much difference to be honest (which I can do this week). And I’m not going to rush him in the school for the sake of getting him ready to sell ASAP.

Really if I want to get him going in a bit of a better way in the school I should take it down and re advertise in a month or so. Which maybe I’ll do. It might be that no one contacts me anyway because he’s vastly over priced so I’m just going to leave it a few days, get him in the school and if I haven’t had a single serious enquiry I’ll take it down and re advertise “properly” with the relevant pics and videos in a month. Hopefully the market will still be booming.


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## SatansLittleHelper (10 June 2020)

The only "right" thing to do is what your gut tells you. I don't blame you at all for taking a punt at selling Bear, esp with the current climate.
I've had a load of grief, off a couple of people who think they know best, about not getting Rex some extra schooling and selling. One friend keeps saying to sell now while the market is good as any horse can break at any time.  The difference is that I can't stand the thought of parting with him. I may or may not regret that decision at a later date but I know I'd be very hard pushed to find such a nice, level headed chap again in a hurry. Can't pretend I haven't been tempted esp as I have the cob on loan but ultimately I don't have it in me to sell.
If Bear doesn't "do it" for you then I just don't see the harm.xx


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## be positive (11 June 2020)

SatansLittleHelper said:



			The only "right" thing to do is what your gut tells you. I don't blame you at all for taking a punt at selling Bear, esp with the current climate.
I've had a load of grief, off a couple of people who think they know best, about not getting Rex some extra schooling and selling. One friend keeps saying to sell now while the market is good as any horse can break at any time.  The difference is that I can't stand the thought of parting with him. I may or may not regret that decision at a later date but I know I'd be very hard pushed to find such a nice, level headed chap again in a hurry. Can't pretend I haven't been tempted esp as I have the cob on loan but ultimately I don't have it in me to sell.
If Bear doesn't "do it" for you then I just don't see the harm.xx
		
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You bought Rex for yourself, he was not bought to sell on unlike Bear, so why does anyone think it a good idea to pressure you into selling to make a profit, you will still want a horse and may not find one you like even with a higher budget or you buy another unbacked one and invest more time , wait another year or so before you get the horse you want and there is no guarantee the next one will not break either. 
It is a bit like telling people to sell their dog because the market is booming, I know a few people do seem to be doing just that but life is for living not all about money, although having enough does make everything easier.


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## SatansLittleHelper (11 June 2020)

be positive said:



			You bought Rex for yourself, he was not bought to sell on unlike Bear, so why does anyone think it a good idea to pressure you into selling to make a profit, you will still want a horse and may not find one you like even with a higher budget or you buy another unbacked one and invest more time , wait another year or so before you get the horse you want and there is no guarantee the next one will not break either.
It is a bit like telling people to sell their dog because the market is booming, I know a few people do seem to be doing just that but life is for living not all about money, although having enough does make everything easier.
		
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Absolutely this. I'm permanently fairly skint but money has never been a great motivation for me really (assuming bills are paid and animals have all they need), I'd be a really rubbish dealer 🙈🙈😂
But 2 people I know have put their own horses up for sale recently in order to profit from the current market. Nothing wrong with that of course but I hate feeling pressured to do the same just because I'm not loaded....capitalising on any means of a good profit "should" be a priority...apparently 🙄🙄🙄🙄

Sorry to go off topic there Michen. Bear is lovely but you bought him to sell at some point so I really hope you can make a few quid and find something to have a bit of fun on. X


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## indie1282 (11 June 2020)

Michen one of your comments has stood out to me, it where you said 'I enjoyed Bear when I thought I had Bog to go back to, weirdly' Do you think your decision to sell Bear now is because you have come to resent him a bit because he's not and never will be Boggle? I dont mean this in a negative way at all but you were really keen on Bear in the beginning and talked about loaning him out if you didnt have time ride both, then you did lots of long reining, walking out and generally just spent time with him. You seemed pretty smitten to me  

He is so similar to Bog ( in looks at least ) that comparisons are understandable and i wonder if subconsciously you have 'switched off' from Bear because he reminds you of what Bog used to be? I'm probably not explaining myself very well and i do apologise if it comes across as wrong but i have felt a similar way before with a horse. 

I also think that you have taken a hell of a lot on recently with rehabbing Bog, starting Bear and a new puppy i imagine that you are feeling exhausted both mentally and physically! If you did need time to re group then it wouldn't do Bear any harm to have a couple of weeks of downtime in the field. 

Also sorry to hear about Bog, sending positive thoughts to you both.


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## Michen (11 June 2020)

Not sure if anyone’s noticed but I’m ummm fairly spontaneous. Sort of dive in head first with everything, usually it works out..

Anyway- took the advert down. It was a shoddy advert tbh and I don’t even have any decent photos under saddle or videos. He’s not seen the inside of the school under saddle for three months and really needs a solid month of work before I can expect to get decent money for him. That month in turn will stop me making a rash decision. 

I don’t know how I feel about Bear, it took me forever to adore Boggle in part because I was grieving for another horse and also because Boggle threw so many curveballs my way outside of the usual young horse challenges. I started to really bond with him when we did stuff together, with that came trust and a partnership. It seems shallow to say I can’t love a horse until I’ve competed it or whatnot and that’s probably not what I really mean.. but it’s all those things that sort of knit you together I guess. 

So I’ll get Bear going in the school then see how I feel. Realistically the market surely won’t crash within a month! Then I’ll know more re Boggle and things might be that bit better. 

Out of the two horses if I want a cuddle it’s Bear I go to for that


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## Upthecreek (11 June 2020)

I think you need to give yourself time to think this through properly unless you are desperate for the money. It won’t hurt Bear to have a couple of weeks off to give you a break and you will hopefully have more information on the likely prognosis for Boggle.  The setback with Boggle has understandably made you think about the implications of him not returning to full fitness. This has coincided with a buoyant market where horses are selling quickly for crazy figures so I can see why you would be tempted to sell Bear now. That said, I genuinely think a horse like him will achieve a good price whenever you decide to sell him. Don’t put unnecessary pressure on yourself unless you need to for financial reasons.


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## CanteringCarrot (11 June 2020)

That's a sensible approach. 

To be honest, I would've probably done the same as you did, so I understand where you were/are coming from.


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## indie1282 (11 June 2020)

Michen said:



			Not sure if anyone’s noticed but I’m ummm fairly spontaneous. Sort of dive in head first with everything, usually it works out..

Anyway- took the advert down. It was a shoddy advert tbh and I don’t even have any decent photos under saddle or videos. He’s not seen the inside of the school under saddle for three months and really needs a solid month of work before I can expect to get decent money for him. That month in turn will stop me making a rash decision.

I don’t know how I feel about Bear, it took me forever to adore Boggle in part because I was grieving for another horse and also because Boggle threw so many curveballs my way outside of the usual young horse challenges. I started to really bond with him when we did stuff together, with that came trust and a partnership. It seems shallow to say I can’t love a horse until I’ve competed it or whatnot and that’s probably not what I really mean.. but it’s all those things that sort of knit you together I guess.

So I’ll get Bear going in the school then see how I feel. Realistically the market surely won’t crash within a month! Then I’ll know more re Boggle and things might be that bit better.

Out of the two horses if I want a cuddle it’s Bear I go to for that 

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Good decision 🙂 

Nothing wrong with giving yourself some breathing space.

I think you are grieving for Bog in a way. Because his injury means he is not likely to be up to the hunting etc.. which you both clearly enjoyed , I feel that you are experiencing a sense of loss and it can take time to come to terms with things. Theres nothing shallow about how you are feeling at all.

Maybe Bear is simply the right horse at the wrong time? 

Give yourself time. Take each day as it comes and see where you go from there.

Bog is a very lucky horse and should you decide to sell Bear then I'm sure plenty on here will be happy to take him off your hands!


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## Annagain (11 June 2020)

Michen said:



			Not sure if anyone’s noticed but I’m ummm fairly spontaneous. Sort of dive in head first with everything, usually it works out..

Anyway- took the advert down. It was a shoddy advert tbh and I don’t even have any decent photos under saddle or videos. He’s not seen the inside of the school under saddle for three months and really needs a solid month of work before I can expect to get decent money for him. That month in turn will stop me making a rash decision.

I don’t know how I feel about Bear, it took me forever to adore Boggle in part because I was grieving for another horse and also because Boggle threw so many curveballs my way outside of the usual young horse challenges. I started to really bond with him when we did stuff together, with that came trust and a partnership. It seems shallow to say I can’t love a horse until I’ve competed it or whatnot and that’s probably not what I really mean.. but it’s all those things that sort of knit you together I guess.

So I’ll get Bear going in the school then see how I feel. Realistically the market surely won’t crash within a month! Then I’ll know more re Boggle and things might be that bit better.

Out of the two horses if I want a cuddle it’s Bear I go to for that 

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I'm glad to read this. I really hope it doesn't come to this but reading this thread yesterday, I was thinking if the worst happens and Bog isn't up to what you want to do with him, would you really be happy not being able to ride either of them?

Also, cuddles are very important .


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## Meredith (11 June 2020)

So sorry about Boggle.
Hoping for the best possible outcome.

Regarding Bear, as others have said, beware of making an impetuous decision. Take your time to evaluate everything.

Someone said they took note of a phrase you used, I will quote another



Michen said:



			.......I don’t know how I feel about Bear, it took me forever to adore Boggle .................I started to really bond with him when we did stuff together, with that came trust and a partnership..............................Out of the two horses if I want a cuddle it’s Bear I go to for that 

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## Michen (11 June 2020)

Upthecreek said:



			I think you need to give yourself time to think this through properly unless you are desperate for the money. It won’t hurt Bear to have a couple of weeks off to give you a break and you will hopefully have more information on the likely prognosis for Boggle.  The setback with Boggle has understandably made you think about the implications of him not returning to full fitness. This has coincided with a buoyant market where horses are selling quickly for crazy figures so I can see why you would be tempted to sell Bear now. That said, I genuinely think a horse like him will achieve a good price whenever you decide to sell him. Don’t put unnecessary pressure on yourself unless you need to for financial reasons.
		
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Thank you. No I don’t need the money (well I should- it would pay off my car loan blah blah blah   )- but I don’t *need* it and when purchasing a horse I think you have to really write off the capital straight away anyway.

If something changed with work I would, but I’d think that’s as safe as sales can ever be at this point.

If I don’t sell him, he is pretty cheap to keep in summer and current situation as I need very little in the way of services. Winter will be more painful but it’s budgeted for and I won’t begrudge it so long as the enjoyment is there...


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## Michen (11 June 2020)

Isn’t it weird how the mind works though. Boggle has a set back and instead of thinking oh good I’m so glad I have Bear which was what he was bought for, my first thought is to sell him? I suppose it’s all part of being overly emotional!

I *think* it’s because the relentlessness of Boggle rehab was meant to come to an end. Now faced with god knows what, back to the in hand walking etc currently, it all feels very chore like I suppose (horses in general). by now Boggle should be a pleasurable hack rather than back to being a rehab case.


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## J&S (11 June 2020)

Well, I for one, am very relieved you have taken the advert down.  If some one did jump on him at the price you were asking, and if you did feel you needed a replacement hunting horse, just how difficult do you think that might be judging from the comments on here about suitable, sane, sound horses at decent prices! Bear may not be Boggle, but he is an extremely good second best!


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## Tiddlypom (11 June 2020)

A month‘s  breathing space in which you prep Bear for sale sounds like an excellent plan - you’ll know better at the end as to whether you want to sell him or not. If you decide to keep him, the extra work will have brought him along anyway. Win win!

I don’t doubt that you are emotional atm, life has thrown you rather a lot of curve balls re horses.


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## Roxylola (11 June 2020)

Michen said:



			Isn’t it weird how the mind works though. Boggle has a set back and instead of thinking oh good I’m so glad I have Bear which was what he was bought for, my first thought is to sell him? I suppose it’s all part of being overly emotional!
		
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Do you think there is an element of "if it's not with Bog, I dont want to do it at all" Bear was supposed to be a stopgap, albeit a potentially long term one. He was never intended as a replacement. With your latest news you have - naturally- gone to worst case scenario which is that it increases the likelihood Bog may not be able to work at the same level in future.
If money isnt an issue, although I can understand taking advantage of the current market, all else aside, Bog likes him and it seems like you having a companion might be Bogs only chance at anything but single turn out. Now single turn out is all very well on a souped up performance horse, but maybe for a Bog looking for a quieter life having a Bear around might be nice. 🤷‍♀️


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## Michen (11 June 2020)

indie1282 said:



			Good decision 🙂

Nothing wrong with giving yourself some breathing space.

I think you are grieving for Bog in a way. Because his injury means he is not likely to be up to the hunting etc.. which you both clearly enjoyed , I feel that you are experiencing a sense of loss and it can take time to come to terms with things. Theres nothing shallow about how you are feeling at all.

Maybe Bear is simply the right horse at the wrong time?

Give yourself time. Take each day as it comes and see where you go from there.

Bog is a very lucky horse and should you decide to sell Bear then I'm sure plenty on here will be happy to take him off your hands!
		
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I think you’ve hit the nail on the head. I was totally at peace with no more proper hunting Boggle but I’d fully hoped to do everything else despite the knowledge of what a tricky injury this is. Now it feels like it’s all come crashing down and I’ll never blast down the beach with him again etc.

And it doesn’t matter in some ways because all I want is for him to be alive and happy but it still feels like a loss because we have had so much fun together. Anyway I’m jumping the gun as time is a great healer and I’m being very pessimistic, but I just look at him now and think how very fragile he seems.


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## Michen (11 June 2020)

Roxylola said:



			Do you think there is an element of "if it's not with Bog, I dont want to do it at all" Bear was supposed to be a stopgap, albeit a potentially long term one. He was never intended as a replacement. With your latest news you have - naturally- gone to worst case scenario which is that it increases the likelihood Bog may not be able to work at the same level in future.
If money isnt an issue, although I can understand taking advantage of the current market, all else aside, Bog likes him and it seems like you having a companion might be Bogs only chance at anything but single turn out. Now single turn out is all very well on a souped up performance horse, but maybe for a Bog looking for a quieter life having a Bear around might be nice. 🤷‍♀️
		
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I think I know deep down that if long term Bog can only hack, he’d be better off retired and going out on a huge acerage in a big herd. And that would mean not being with me every day on a conventional livery yard with turnout which (IMO) is not suitable for a retired horse long term.

Bog just isn’t a happy hack. He THRIVES off a job. If he’s not going to have a job he’s probably better off being properly let down and getting fat and hairy and running with a herd.

And I think that’s what makes me so gutted - selfishly.


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## Roxylola (11 June 2020)

Its rotten isnt it. I've never wanted to own another since I had my lad pts well over 10 years ago. I've always ridden but the sacrifices I'd make to keep a horse have never seemed worth it for anything else. It's a long and sorry tale and not really much in common with your situation but I do understand the state of mind that goes with a broken horse.


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## ihatework (11 June 2020)

I don’t think you are at the retirement stage yet.

But if he were mine he’d be going out in a retirement type herd for a minimum of 12 months and I’d be shutting my eyes


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## Michen (11 June 2020)

Roxylola said:



			Its rotten isnt it. I've never wanted to own another since I had my lad pts well over 10 years ago. I've always ridden but the sacrifices I'd make to keep a horse have never seemed worth it for anything else. It's a long and sorry tale and not really much in common with your situation but I do understand the state of mind that goes with a broken horse.
		
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Oh I’m sorry to read that  it’s such a huge emotional and financial commitment isn’t it. I don’t think I’ve ever regretted it, but I don’t think there’s any other sport that has the ability to break your heart quite so much!


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## Michen (11 June 2020)

ihatework said:



			I don’t think you are at the retirement stage yet.

But if he were mine he’d be going out in a retirement type herd for a minimum of 12 months and I’d be shutting my eyes
		
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My vet is really against this now and even more so in the knowledge that further adhesions may tear. I suppose part of the problem with the injury being so “old”. He wants walking walking walking to get things to heal correctly and functionally.

(ETA- I did ask the question on Tuesday!)


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## Roxylola (11 June 2020)

Michen said:



			Oh I’m sorry to read that  it’s such a huge emotional and financial commitment isn’t it. I don’t think I’ve ever regretted it, but I don’t think there’s any other sport that has the ability to break your heart quite so much!
		
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I don't regret it as such but it is hard, I put a lot in to any of the horses I ride, i own all of supercob's tack and I don't object to spending if needed but it doesnt pain me that they arent mine. The good times make it all worthwhile at least


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## Pinkvboots (11 June 2020)

So sorry about Bog I think it's totally normal to feel like you do I have felt the same when my favourite horse is out of action I often don't want to bother with the other one, but I eventually snap out of it when I have calmed down and just get on with it, and then find I am really enjoying him and feel lucky to have him to ride.

So you might find you feel totally different in a few weeks because at the moment it's a bit raw and shit.


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## Upthecreek (11 June 2020)

Just to add..... you have invested so much time and care into Boggle’s rehab that you are bound to feel crushed and overwhelmed by the prospect of regressing with it rather than progressing. But give it a few days and you will feel more in control and able to handle everything. I expect you’ve had a hectic few months what with rehabbing Boggle, educating Bear and getting Pepper and I know I am always more emotional and more likely to let negative thoughts run away with me when I’ve got loads going on. Also, you love your horse and want the absolute best outcome for him and your riding partnership. Be kind to yourself.


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## GG13 (11 June 2020)

I’m so sorry you’ve had this set back after such careful rehabbing. It’s utterly devastating when you’ve put so much time and effort in and emotionally draining. 
I’m in a similar position, albeit I don’t have another horse already but should really be looking. However, as much as I miss competing and schooling my heart’s just not in it. 
It’s looking very likely that retirement is going to be the outcome for mine.  I’m absolutely gutted and the last thing I want to do right now is look for another. 
Waiting at least until Bog’s next check up won’t do any harm and means you can start preparing Bear if selling is still what you decide to do


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## Michen (11 June 2020)

ihatework said:



			I don’t think you are at the retirement stage yet.

But if he were mine he’d be going out in a retirement type herd for a minimum of 12 months and I’d be shutting my eyes
		
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Actually quite intrigued by this IHW, (slow day in the office, too much thinking) obviously you haven’t had the conversations with my vet but you are aware of his injury, and the three months small paddock rest etc.

What would make you go against the vet rehab plan which has (albeit the adhesion tearing is far from ideal), produced a nicely healed ligament? What would be the benefits in chucking a horse in a field when the whole point is controlled exercise to ensure correct, straight healing? Incorrect healing is what has got him into trouble with adhesions in the first place. 

The total rehab time was always 6 months- to ignore the prescribed treatment and small paddock rest seems somewhat drastic. 

No intention of doing that as I’ll always be guided by vet..but just genuinely curious. Would seem a bit of a bizarre thing to do at this stage!


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## Michen (11 June 2020)

GG13 said:



			I’m so sorry you’ve had this set back after such careful rehabbing. It’s utterly devastating when you’ve put so much time and effort in and emotionally draining. 
I’m in a similar position, albeit I don’t have another horse already but should really be looking. However, as much as I miss competing and schooling my heart’s just not in it. 
It’s looking very likely that retirement is going to be the outcome for mine.  I’m absolutely gutted and the last thing I want to do right now is look for another. 
Waiting at least until Bog’s next check up won’t do any harm and means you can start preparing Bear if selling is still what you decide to do
		
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Oh no I am sorry  have you been rehabbing too? What’s the injury? X


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## Michen (11 June 2020)

Upthecreek said:



			Just to add..... you have invested so much time and care into Boggle’s rehab that you are bound to feel crushed and overwhelmed by the prospect of regressing with it rather than progressing. But give it a few days and you will feel more in control and able to handle everything. I expect you’ve had a hectic few months what with rehabbing Boggle, educating Bear and getting Pepper and I know I am always more emotional and more likely to let negative thoughts run away with me when I’ve got loads going on. Also, you love your horse and want the absolute best outcome for him and your riding partnership. Be kind to yourself.
		
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Thank you. xx


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## ihatework (11 June 2020)

Why?
Because the vet doesn’t have to do the rehab! There is what the literature says and then real life.

I have seen time and time again, horses stuck in boxes, owners going down an emotional journey of rehab.

I honestly believe (unless they are completely boogered) in turn them away, keep them moving and give the body time to heal itself. If you have adhesions formed then the box rest and walking wasn’t so great.

I know I’m a bit flippant about it, but the way I look at it is if they are unable to heal over time in the field then they are probably to fragile to be much use in decent work. At least the horse has a nice lifestyle finding out.

So my response is not bizarre. It’s just a more relaxed attitude than yours.


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## Surbie (11 June 2020)

Michen said:



			Thanks guys. Have to say I feel really bloody shit today, I feel like I'm never going to get my horse properly back at the end of all of this- I suspect he's just going to be too fragile.
		
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Really sorry you and Bog are going through it. I hope he comes right soon - fingers crossed the 2 weeks does it.


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## Michen (11 June 2020)

ihatework said:



			Why?
Because the vet doesn’t have to do the rehab! There is what the literature says and then real life.

I have seen time and time again, horses stuck in boxes, owners going down an emotional journey of rehab.

I honestly believe (unless they are completely boogered) in turn them away, keep them moving and give the body time to heal itself. If you have adhesions formed then the box rest and walking wasn’t so great.

I know I’m a bit flippant about it, but the way I look at it is if they are unable to heal over time in the field then they are probably to fragile to be much use in decent work. At least the horse has a nice lifestyle finding out.

So my response is not bizarre. It’s just a more relaxed attitude than yours.
		
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The adhesions were formed beforehand (thinks my vet), because likely he did it in November time and then worked on it for months... so it attempted to heal "chaotically"... hence the need for the controlled structure walking. We saw adhesions (or evidence of- I can't remember exactly) on the original scan back in Feb.


Did you not have a horse who did similar, and followed a similar plan?

The emotional side is rubbish I agree- but if I turned away and the ligament healed incorrectly as is the concern with this injury, I'd never forgive myself for not putting the effort in. I'm not sure that's being less relaxed- just trying to trust the science I guess. And the 3 vets that have consulted on it!

Appreciate the alternative view point though- thank you. If in a few months we are no further it's something I'll seriously consider but for now I'll plough on with original plan.


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## twiggy2 (11 June 2020)

...


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## Michen (11 June 2020)

With respect, I wasn't actually asking for opinions on what to do with Boggle (I'm sorry- I don't mean that to sound rude and I do appreciate everyone's support- I don't mean to be, just trying to avoid an influx Boggle advice on this occasion as I am working with my vet on this one and it'll just upset me even more if I think I'm not doing the right thing- I've done so well not reaching for the gin.....  ). I was just particularly interested in IHW comment because of previous discussions on a thread etc.

Thank you though. x


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## twiggy2 (11 June 2020)

Michen said:



			With respect, I wasn't actually asking for opinions on what to do with Boggle (I'm sorry- I don't mean that to sound rude and I do appreciate everyone's support- I don't mean to be, just trying to avoid an influx Boggle advice on this occasion as I am working with my vet on this one and it'll just upset me even more if I think I'm not doing the right thing- I've done so well not reaching for the gin.....  ). I was just particularly interested in IHW comment because of previous discussions on a thread etc.

Thank you though. x
		
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Fair enough, comment removed


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## ycbm (11 June 2020)

ihatework said:



			Why?
Because the vet doesn’t have to do the rehab! There is what the literature says and then real life.

I have seen time and time again, horses stuck in boxes, owners going down an emotional journey of rehab.

I honestly believe (unless they are completely boogered) in turn them away, keep them moving and give the body time to heal itself. If you have adhesions formed then the box rest and walking wasn’t so great.

I know I’m a bit flippant about it, but the way I look at it is* if they are unable to heal over time in the field then they are probably to fragile to be much use in decent work.* At least the horse has a nice lifestyle finding out.

So my response is not bizarre. It’s just a more relaxed attitude than yours.
		
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With you 100%, 200% on the bit I have bolded.


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## Michen (11 June 2020)

Well, I’m going to trust my vet on this and the reasons why turning away a horse at this stage with this injury is not optimal unless as a last resort (horse not coping with box rest etc).

I suspect that as RCVS VP and running his own practice he’s dealt with more soft tissue injuries than anyone else on the forum... so I shall trust his guidance and be prepared to change tact if he advises.

I am happy to put the effort in, it’s irrelevant to me that the vet is not doing the rehab- if I didn’t want to do it myself I’d send him away for it and pay someone else to, but I want to do it myself. 

Also- my horse probably spends more time out of his box than most horses in the UK with limited winter turnout and certainly most horses on the continent.


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## GG13 (11 June 2020)

Michen said:



			Oh no I am sorry  have you been rehabbing too? What’s the injury? X
		
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Yes, I’ve been rehabbing on and off for what seems like forever! Injury is to the pastern. Initially treated with steroids, seemed to work nicely but only lasted around 6 months before I was noticing the same behaviour that made me investigate initially. In the end and after discussing options with vet I decided to opt for a fusion. This was last autumn. Check up last week shows little improvement


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## Michen (11 June 2020)

GG13 said:



			Yes, I’ve been rehabbing on and off for what seems like forever! Injury is to the pastern. Initially treated with steroids, seemed to work nicely but only lasted around 6 months before I was noticing the same behaviour that made me investigate initially. In the end and after discussing options with vet I decided to opt for a fusion. This was last autumn. Check up last week shows little improvement
		
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Urgh. I’m sorry. That’s so frustrating


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## thefarsideofthefield (11 June 2020)

Michen said:



			Yep fair enough. He'd certainly pop the jumps he's never had any waryness or needed any encourgement over poles etc. I do need to get him in the school and I need to do that anyway regardless but I doubt my own ability to school a baby and want Boggle's fab jockey involved. She's back around next sunday.
		
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 From your posts and videos you look to be a perfectly good rider - so why do you doubt your own ability to bring on a youngster ? You may not have taken on the task of schooling a baby before but there always has to be a first time ( even for Boggles fab jockey !) . You've got yourself a lovely safe , sane youngster to play with , so why not make him the one that starts this part of your own riding journey ? Granted , it may take a little longer than having someone else hop on and do it but honestly  I think you're really underestimating your own ability . It's mostly common sense , not rocket science . You are a sensible , sympathetic , experienced  rider with great people around you and the common sense to ask for help if you can't work things out yourself . You are absolutely not going to do him any harm and  you will learn skills that money can't buy.
Bringing on a young horse is incredibly rewarding  and , I suspect , you will realise that you are capable of far more than you currently give yourself credit for . You and Bear will get to know each other inside out and , whether you end up selling him or not , you will have added to your skill set and have the huge satisfaction of looking at your horse knowing " You know what ? I did that !" 
What if you changed your focus and  ' The Project ' was to become about a learning process for the both of you ?


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## Michen (11 June 2020)

thefarsideofthefield said:



			From your posts and videos you look to be a perfectly good rider - so why do you doubt your own ability to bring on a youngster ? You may not have taken on the task of schooling a baby before but there always has to be a first time ( even for Boggles fab jockey !) . You've got yourself a lovely safe , sane youngster to play with , so why not make him the one that starts this part of your own riding journey ? Granted , it may take a little longer than having someone else hop on and do it but honestly  I think you're really underestimating your own ability . It's mostly common sense , not rocket science . You are a sensible , sympathetic , experienced  rider with great people around you and the common sense to ask for help if you can't work things out yourself . You are absolutely not going to do him any harm and  you will learn skills that money can't buy.
Bringing on a young horse is incredibly rewarding  and , I suspect , you will realise that you are capable of far more than you currently give yourself credit for . You and Bear will get to know each other inside out and , whether you end up selling him or not , you will have added to your skill set and have the huge satisfaction of looking at your horse knowing " You know what ? I did that !"
What if you changed your focus and  ' The Project ' was to become about a learning process for the both of you ?
		
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That’s a lovely positive post- thank you. I could give it a bash, schooling is not really my *thing* but I reckon I could get him going a bit in the school at least.. Could always get another jockey on board if things go a bit wrong.

I did struggle to school Boggle when he was a baby, couldn’t get the correct leg etc when others would with ease, so I am just cautious not to create a problem with a baby.


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## thefarsideofthefield (12 June 2020)

Michen said:



			That’s a lovely positive post- thank you. I could give it a bash, schooling is not really my *thing* but I reckon I could get him going a bit in the school at least.. Could always get another jockey on board if things go a bit wrong.

I did struggle to school Boggle when he was a baby, couldn’t get the correct leg etc when others would with ease, so I am just cautious not to create a problem with a baby.
		
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Michen said:



			That’s a lovely positive post- thank you. I could give it a bash, schooling is not really my *thing* but I reckon I could get him going a bit in the school at least.. Could always get another jockey on board if things go a bit wrong.

I did struggle to school Boggle when he was a baby, couldn’t get the correct leg etc when others would with ease, so I am just cautious not to create a problem with a baby.
		
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You won't spoil him and he won't break ! Don't think of it as schooling , think of it as training - in the way that you would train a horse to stand tied up , load into a wagon or stand still at a meet . You're training him to understand basic aids and at this stage you're just looking at 15 minute sessions in the school working on simple transitions , changes of direction , balance on turns and big circles  etc . I know you say it's not your thing but honestly , teaching them the basics is fantastically rewarding and there's nothing like it for getting your own brain engaged ie Why does he do/not do that ? Why does he find that hard/easy/fun/confusing ? Why do I find that hard/easy/fun/confusing ? Does he understand what I want ? If not what can I do to help him understand ?
You will develop your ' feel ' and the ability to really think about how to convey information to your horse if he doesn't ' get it .'
We've had youngsters in the field that  I've felt totally indifferent towards ( some I've even quite disliked ) but once I've started the riding/training process and it's become just me and that horse forming that partenership my feelings invariably change . It's such an intense and rewarding thing and even the days where things don't progress so well ( which are inevitable !) serve a purpose because you have to step away and think about what did/didn't happen .
Go for it - you will get so much out of it from the point of view of your own development as a rider , the sense of achievement is awesome and it will give your relationship with Bear a whole new dimension .


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## Michen (14 June 2020)

Bear got wind of the selling thing and decided to take matters into his own hands. After a lovely hack yesterday and intentions to repeat the same today he’s lame in trot. So just walking him home in hand and then I’ll pull the other brown sick note out of his box for the same thing.

Would like to know which one of you WhatsApped Bear plz! On a plus note he couldn’t give a rats arse about leaving his hacking companion to divert 
HORSES!!!


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## Jeni the dragon (14 June 2020)

Oh what a nightmare! Hope it's nothing serious!


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## Jayzee (14 June 2020)

Oh no!!!!! Horses!! Really feel for you


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## Wheels (14 June 2020)

Oh bear! Not you too


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## Ambers Echo (14 June 2020)

I've just caught up with this. So so sorry about Boggle. And now bloody Bear too!  No advice just sending hugs and virtual G& T. X


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## alexomahony (18 June 2020)

How's Bear doing @Michen? I hope the lameness hasn't come to anything xx


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## Michen (18 June 2020)

alexomahony said:



			How's Bear doing @Michen? I hope the lameness hasn't come to anything xx
		
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Ah thanks for asking! He’s absolutely sound and was by the time I looked again on the Monday, so no idea what that was about- trod on a stone!?

He was however extremely sad this morning at having been out all night in the rain. Apparently being rugless in such weather even with warm temperatures was really mean- I got a lot of side eye displeasure!!


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## Jeni the dragon (18 June 2020)

Aww! He looks like he's melted a bit!


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## Roxylola (18 June 2020)

That's appalling treatment expecting him to sleep in the rain naked all night! Anyone would think he was a native pony, not a prime specimen of glorious sporting blood horse 🙈
Glad hes sorted his flat tyre out at least


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## Wheels (18 June 2020)

Michen said:



			Ah thanks for asking! He’s absolutely sound and was by the time I looked again on the Monday, so no idea what that was about- trod on a stone!?

He was however extremely sad this morning at having been out all night in the rain. Apparently being rugless in such weather even with warm temperatures was really mean- I got a lot of side eye displeasure!!

View attachment 50153

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Oh jeez dont talk to me! My connie hates the rain! Shame we live in northern ireland really, he gets so grumpy when its wet lol


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## CanteringCarrot (18 June 2020)

My Spanish horse loves the rain. He often prefers to stand and rest in the rain vs in his box or in a sheltered area. I don't know why, he gets totally soaked!

Glad to hear that Bear is soggy but sound!


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## Pippity (18 June 2020)

That's definitely good news about Bear!

I let Blue stay in last night. As soon as she saw her headcollar, she retreated to the back of her stable with her arse to me, so she definitely made her feelings plain! (To be fair, it was absolutely bucketing down at the time. I was dripping wet after a ten-second sprint to the tack room.) For a feral Irish bog cob, she's getting distinctly precious about bad weather.


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## Michen (18 June 2020)

Pippity said:



			That's definitely good news about Bear!

I let Blue stay in last night. As soon as she saw her headcollar, she retreated to the back of her stable with her arse to me, so she definitely made her feelings plain! (To be fair, it was absolutely bucketing down at the time. I was dripping wet after a ten-second sprint to the tack room.) For a feral Irish bog cob, she's getting distinctly precious about bad weather.
		
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Ridiculous aren’t they. Bog is the same too, I don’t bother turning him out in bad weather it’s just pointless, he’s miserable!

Bear could do with keeping trimmer so if he gets a little cold and wet it’s no bad thing  I say having put a rain sheet on him tonight because I’m pathetic!


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## alexomahony (19 June 2020)

Really glad to hear that! They always find new ways to worry us! 

Haha oh I'm going to call the RSPCC! (Royal society of prevention of cruelty to Connemaras)


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## wren123 (19 June 2020)

What a relief, I'm really pleased for you that he's sound.


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## Michen (20 June 2020)

Urgh well don’t know what to think. Bear felt lame for a few strides in trot, head nod and all to begin with on road then very quickly seemed fine. Then felt unlevel again and stuffy on a grassy uphill track but it has a narrow “path” so they end up with one hoof on it and one off, possibly just baby wobbliness? Felt fine on another grass track and fine again on road.

Weird. I’m going to work him tomorrow and Monday to see if it becomes more apparent or not and then trot him up for vet on Tuesday when he’s here for Boggle.

Boggles leg went hot and swollen again yesterday but then down and cool again today so god knows what’s going on there. Am not ashamed to admit I sat on the floor and sobbed when I felt it had gone up again... please keep fingers crossed he’s sounder for vet on Tuesday and can resume his small paddock turnout again!


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## Tiddlypom (20 June 2020)

Bear’s unlevel strides may just be due to bruising from before he was shod. I didn’t word my comments very well at the time re resting and giving him some danilon, so I’m sorry for that, but I have (too much) experience of barefoot horses getting bruised feet and then on just how long it takes to settle. In my case, I was too keen to get my mare ‘self trimming’ on the road, but my local lanes have too much loose gravel on them and she always ended up footsore. This happened more than once before I realised that she was always going to have to be booted on the roads...

IME it takes a few weeks for internal bruising in the feet to settle down, but it does eventually.

Hope it all settles soon, and fingers crossed for better news for Bog after the vet visit.


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## Abi90 (20 June 2020)

Oh no Michen, you really aren’t having much luck  hope things look better for them both soon!


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## Michen (20 June 2020)

Tiddlypom said:



			Bear’s unlevel strides may just be due to bruising from before he was shod. I didn’t word my comments very well at the time re resting and giving him some danilon, so I’m sorry for that, but I have (too much) experience of barefoot horses getting bruised feet and then on just how long it takes to settle. In my case, I was too keen to get my mare ‘self trimming’ on the road, but my local lanes have too much loose gravel on them and she always ended up footsore. This happened more than once before I realised that she was always going to have to be booted on the roads...

IME it takes a few weeks for internal bruising in the feet to settle down, but it does eventually.

Hope it all settles soon, and fingers crossed for better news for Bog after the vet visit.
		
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He was shod weeks ago though, and didn’t take a lame step until Sunday so wouldn’t really make sense I wouldn’t have thought. I wonder whether he got a new bruise from a stone and it’s just settling down since Sunday.

Thanks, I can’t believe I’ll potentially be trotting up two horses on Tuesday 😂


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## DabDab (20 June 2020)

Oh no, hope it's something of nothing with Bear, and that Bog's leg is improved when the vet comes on Tuesday.

Tbh there a lot of things that can make a young horse take a dodgy few strides - a bit of tension, uneven ground, just not being quite straight etc... A week ago I had a minute or so of minor melt down because Arts suddenly went lame on a hack. The culprit turned out to be a horse fly biting her shoulder


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## palo1 (20 June 2020)

Young horses have a lot on to remain level on all surfaces at all times and certainly my experience suggest that one cause of minor/intermittent unlevel-ness/duff strides can be uncertainty or lack of confidence with the way the ground on that stride 'feels' to them.  Young horses are easily bruised and minorly strained as well as legs/tendons/muscles are still weak.  Most horses are one sided too and the less 'confident' side is often the one that seems to go 'off'.  Of course, a brewing abcess can cause the same!  It's worth checking out in any case but probably not a major worry.


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## Michen (20 June 2020)

DabDab said:



			Oh no, hope it's something of nothing with Bear, and that Bog's leg is improved when the vet comes on Tuesday.

Tbh there a lot of things that can make a young horse take a dodgy few strides - a bit of tension, uneven ground, just not being quite straight etc... A week ago I had a minute or so of minor melt down because Arts suddenly went lame on a hack. The culprit turned out to be a horse fly biting her shoulder 

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palo1 said:



			Young horses have a lot on to remain level on all surfaces at all times and certainly my experience suggest that one cause of minor/intermittent unlevel-ness/duff strides can be uncertainty or lack of confidence with the way the ground on that stride 'feels' to them.  Young horses are easily bruised and minorly strained as well as legs/tendons/muscles are still weak.  Most horses are one sided too and the less 'confident' side is often the one that seems to go 'off'.  Of course, a brewing abcess can cause the same!  It's worth checking out in any case but probably not a major worry. 

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Sorry for the delay- I’ve been sulking all day! Feels like everything is one step forwards two steps back at the moment. Appreciate the thoughts and sounds very sensible/likely.

Measured both horses this evening. Well sort of. Bear is 15.1hh and I think has some more growing to do. He didn’t bat an eyelid at the measuring stick.

Boggle, however, what a total moron- wouldn’t let me anywhere near him with the stick and looked like he genuinely thought I was trying to kill him!


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## Michen (21 June 2020)

Am really sitting on my hands not to swap Bear for this youngster.. he’s too small for her but I just bloody love him. He reminds me so much of Boggle. She needs something minimum of Bear size...

He’s only 3 and 14.3hh but very petite. Am slightly in love 🙈🙈

He belongs to a very good mate!


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## Roxylola (21 June 2020)

Ooh, I like that


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## Michen (21 June 2020)

Roxylola said:



			Ooh, I like that
		
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He’s so nice and has such a Boggle
Temperament and attitude. But he is too small. God I like him though! And too young.


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## Roxylola (21 June 2020)

But neither of them would be for keeps...


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## Bellaboo18 (21 June 2020)

He is lovely ...


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## Wheels (21 June 2020)

Michen said:



			Am really sitting on my hands not to swap Bear for this youngster.. he’s too small for her but I just bloody love him. He reminds me so much of Boggle. She needs something minimum of Bear size...

He’s only 3 and 14.3hh but very petite. Am slightly in love 🙈🙈

He belongs to a very good mate!
	View attachment 50393
View attachment 50394

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My connie grew from a wimpy looking 14.3 to a very chunky 6yr old 15.1 and a bit


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## Michen (21 June 2020)

Wheels said:



			My connie grew from a wimpy looking 14.3 to a very chunky 6yr old 15.1 and a bit 

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hmmm. He doesn’t have much bone. And he’s just quite a petite little thing, I can’t see he’s going to make Boggle/Bear sort of height. He’s like a big pony (although moves well) rather than a small horse.


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## Red-1 (21 June 2020)

I like him. 

He will likely grow a bit too.

I also like Bear, but it seems you have your eye facing outward where he is concerned.


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## Michen (21 June 2020)

Red-1 said:



			I like him.

He will likely grow a bit too.

I also like Bear, but it seems you have your eye facing outward where he is concerned.
		
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Do you think? My friend is really torn about selling him. She needs something minimum Boggle size but this guy is just really spindly- even if he grew he doesn’t have the same bone that Bog has (actually more than Bear!)

Am not really serious about friends youngster much as I like him. No point swapping a 4yo for a 3yo.

I have Boggles jockey coming back to start with Bear this week. I’ll still school him too but I think it’ll help to have her get him going, get him out doing a dressage test in autumn etc and start having a bit more fun with him. I don’t have any intentions to put him up for sale again at the moment.


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## ycbm (21 June 2020)

Michen said:



			He’s so nice and has such a Boggle
Temperament and attitude. But he is too small. God I like him though! And too young.
		
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He'll get a lot bigger yet and it's clear that Bear is not a horse you want to keep at the moment.  

.


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## Michen (21 June 2020)

ycbm said:



			He'll get a lot bigger yet and it's clear that Bear is not a horse you want to keep at the moment. 

.
		
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He’s too young though. I’d have to back and turn away, so he’d be no more rideable really than Boggle! Would be pointless. I do like him though 

It’s not really about not wanting to keep Bear, just that I desperately miss riding Boggle.

I am going to put the effort in and invest a bit with Bear, just like I did with Bog, and we will see!


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## HashRouge (21 June 2020)

Michen said:



			He’s too young though. I’d have to back and turn away, so he’d be no more rideable really than Boggle! Would be pointless. I do like him though 

It’s not really about not wanting to keep Bear, just that I desperately miss riding Boggle.

I am going to put the effort in and invest a bit with Bear, just like I did with Bog, and we will see!
		
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I really think you should do this. You didn't love Boggle straight away


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## Michen (21 June 2020)

HashRouge said:



			I really think you should do this. You didn't love Boggle straight away 

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Exactly!


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## Michen (23 June 2020)

So Boggle this morning spent 5 minutes before I could get back hold of him galloping and cantering around bucking, rearing, sliding to a stop. Needless to say he was very chuffed and I sweared a lot. Don’t even ask how that happened 🙈

Consequently he was marginally more lame this eve for vet than 2 weeks ago, though vet said actually he wasn’t too disappointed with that given what he’d done that morning. So, he’s going out for 6 weeks in small paddock then reassess.  Right down the bottom end of the fields away from everyone and everything and I’m going to put Bear down there with him (Bog in his own bit sectioned off within same field) so I can make sure he always has company etc. Unfortunately for Bear this means he will need a muzzle which he’s on the verge of anyway but I’m afraid Bogs needs come first with this one and I need Bear to be useful.

We will reassess in 6 weeks with a scan. So unfortunately for Bear he’s going to be working his fat little belly off which will do him no harm!! He also got checked by the vet and is sound as a whistle after flexions, on hard etc. So that’s good and will crack on with him.

Couple of Bear photos, have cut my friend (Boggle now Bears sharers) head off, am walking with her on foot and we are going to alternate! Not a bad thing for a baby anyway. He’s being grand. And my vet loves him so...


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## splashgirl45 (23 June 2020)

trust boggle to have a hooley,  glad he is not too bad , yes bear does look a little too well, still very handsome..


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## Ambers Echo (23 June 2020)

Michen said:



			It’s not really about not wanting to keep Bear, just that I desperately miss riding Boggle.
		
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I know what you mean. Toby is very sweet but he's just not Amber. I felt really guilty today because after riding I was skipping out and he was all over me like a rash. He's half horse half labrador. And I felt really irritated with him. Amber is so much more reserved and self contained which I just find a lot more appealing. Toby is needy and a bit pathetic! Then I feel terrible because most people actually like a friendly horse so to hold that against him seems a bit perverse. But Toby is lovley in his own way and I intend to put the work in, learn a lot and produce as decent a horse I can. Then have Amber back and Toby can go and be someone else's number one.


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## Michen (23 June 2020)

Ambers Echo said:



			I know what you mean. Toby is very sweet but he's just not Amber. I felt really guilty today because after riding I was skipping out and he was all over me like a rash. He's half horse half labrador. And I felt really irritated with him. Amber is so much more reserved and self contained which I just find a lot more appealing. Toby is needy and a bit pathetic! Then I feel terrible because most people actually like a friendly horse so to hold that against him seems a bit perverse. But Toby is lovley in his own way and I intend to put the work in, learn a lot and produce as decent a horse I can. Then have Amber back and Toby can go and be someone else's number one.
		
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Ha! I could have written this. Exactly the same. Well Boggle is needy and demanding but he’s not drippy or affectionate. Bear is exactly the same as Toby!

Hey ho, hopefully this time next year we will both be back on our no.1’s.


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## Michen (23 June 2020)

splashgirl45 said:



			trust boggle to have a hooley,  glad he is not too bad , yes bear does look a little too well, still very handsome..
		
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He’s such an idiot, he looked so damn proud. When I got him he had his ears pricked and his chest all puffed out (is that even a thing horses can do.. he did it) and was basically just sticking two fingers up to me.

Fine Boggle, tbh we had always intended he’d be back in the field at the end of this two weeks whatever the verdict, we just wanted to know if he would come sound from the new “thing” if we KNEW he had only walked/rested! It will remain a mystery...


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## SatansLittleHelper (23 June 2020)

Bad boy Boggle...!!! 😱😱 Glad he's OK considering though. Bear looks to be a really sweet little chap, maybe you will grow fonder of him as you do more with him x


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## Michen (23 June 2020)

SatansLittleHelper said:



			Bad boy Boggle...!!! 😱😱 Glad he's OK considering though. Bear looks to be a really sweet little chap, maybe you will grow fonder of him as you do more with him x
		
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Yeah! I am fond of him. You can’t not be fond of him because he’s just such a goofy loveable thing! He’s just doesn’t set me alight 😁 which was kinda the point with a project to sell  

If Boggle and him eventually get properly turned out together and it works though I’ll have to keep him because that would directly impact boggles happiness and.. well.. Boggle deserves a pet Bear


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## ycbm (23 June 2020)

Michen said:



			He’s such an idiot, he looked so damn proud. When I got him he had his ears pricked and his chest all puffed out (is that even a thing horses can do.. he did it) and was basically just sticking two fingers up to me
		
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I think you miscounted.  It was one finger from where I was looking 🤣


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## Michen (25 June 2020)

Best bloody site ever frankly. Bog is delighted, Bear can’t believe his luck. My vet assures me long stemmy grass is better than what he’s on as long as the intake is reduced as they can stuff more in, so Bear will have to have a muzzle... but it’s making me cringe a bit seeing him in so much grass! Field will be topped at some point. and I may strip graze Bear if the muzzle doesn’t keep his weight at bay.

Just great to see them out and sort of “together”. Really hope one day they can be loose in the same field!


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## Amymay (25 June 2020)

Can you do a track system?


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## Ambers Echo (25 June 2020)

They look like they are enjoying that!


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## Michen (25 June 2020)

Amymay said:



			Can you do a track system?
		
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Not really, the field is massive and I need to make sure bear stays relatively close to Bog (who will get upset if he feels “alone”).

More likely I’ll just put Bear on Boggles “patch” as he grazes it down and rotate that way. Plus they are in during day for 12 hours so should be manageable with muzzle. Will just have to keep an eye but vet seemed ok with the plan.


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## alexomahony (26 June 2020)

That field is a thing of dreams isn't it! (horsey ones anyway!) I imagine Bear spending time walking through that will help with weight loss too as it will use more energy! 

They look lovely out together <3


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## Tarragon (26 June 2020)

I didn't think that muzzles work well on long grass. It just bends! Just a thought.


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## Michen (26 June 2020)

Tarragon said:



			I didn't think that muzzles work well on long grass. It just bends! Just a thought.
		
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He seems to be managing fine!


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## Michen (27 June 2020)

So er may have sort of cried in front of my vet.

I probed a bit more about Boggles new thing. Basically his adhesion/scar tissue ripping theory is just that, we can’t actually tell what’s happened and it’s actually quite far away from initial injury but just seems too coincidental. I asked him what his recommendation would be if we had found that initially and he said without a doubt an op to clean it up and tidy it. He still thinks thats likely to be the best or even only course of action if we don’t see any signs of healing on scan in two weeks. (4 weeks post injury).

Well I lost it after that tbh, I can’t put Bog under a GA the thought sends me into an absolute panic having lost a horse in anaesthetic recovery.  I also don’t really have any insurance money left which isn’t an issue if I genuinely thought it would be right for the horse to have an op, I’d pay for it, but I just don’t think I can do it.

Anyway, it was left with me making that fairly clear which my vet respected, I’d need some seriously concrete evidence that this has next to no chance of healing properly on its own to even consider it. And even then I think I would rather he retired to a field for the rest of his days than risk his life with an op.

I can’t remember the last time I felt so genuinely panicked, even thinking about to just makes me sick to my stomach.

Please keep your fingers crossed that there will be some sign of healing and recovery on scan in a few weeks


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## HashRouge (27 June 2020)

Oh M that is such rough news 
I have got everything crossed for you, you and Boggle really deserve some good luck xxx


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## Michen (27 June 2020)

HashRouge said:



			Oh M that is such rough news 
I have got everything crossed for you, you and Boggle really deserve some good luck xxx
		
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Thank you xx I can’t believe it, my vet doesn’t really give stuff away until we are “there” aka need to make a decision. And I guess I didn’t really ask that many questions so I was quite floored by the answers.


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## Roxylola (27 June 2020)

Oh that's awful I'm so sorry, you really deserve some better news soon


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## palo1 (27 June 2020)

Michen said:



			So er may have sort of cried in front of my vet.

I probed a bit more about Boggles new thing. Basically his adhesion/scar tissue ripping theory is just that, we can’t actually tell what’s happened and it’s actually quite far away from initial injury but just seems too coincidental. I asked him what his recommendation would be if we had found that initially and he said without a doubt an op to clean it up and tidy it. He still thinks thats likely to be the best or even only course of action if we don’t see any signs of healing on scan in two weeks. (4 weeks post injury).

Well I lost it after that tbh, I can’t put Bog under a GA the thought sends me into an absolute panic having lost a horse in anaesthetic recovery.  I also don’t really have any insurance money left which isn’t an issue if I genuinely thought it would be right for the horse to have an op, I’d pay for it, but I just don’t think I can do it.

Anyway, it was left with me making that fairly clear which my vet respected, I’d need some seriously concrete evidence that this has next to no chance of healing properly on its own to even consider it. And even then I think I would rather he retired to a field for the rest of his days than risk his life with an op.

I can’t remember the last time I felt so genuinely panicked, even thinking about to just makes me sick to my stomach.

Please keep your fingers crossed that there will be some sign of healing and recovery on scan in a few weeks 

Click to expand...

This is such awful bad luck Michen   The injury sounds unusual to start with so the extras are massively frustrating.  I would try to hope, in your situation that time will provide some further healing and that with enough time Bog can come out sound enough for you to enjoy riding again, if not competing.  As for the GA I understand your sense of terror tbh but you need to be guided by your vet as you find out more.  Not easy for you at all and sorry to hear this.  Everything crossed that good healing takes place and provides a direction for you to go in.


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## Wheels (27 June 2020)

I really hope there is improvement on your next scan.  

It's really awful going through things like this


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## Michen (27 June 2020)

palo1 said:



			This is such awful bad luck Michen   The injury sounds unusual to start with so the extras are massively frustrating.  I would try to hope, in your situation that time will provide some further healing and that with enough time Bog can come out sound enough for you to enjoy riding again, if not competing.  As for the GA I understand your sense of terror tbh but you need to be guided by your vet as you find out more.  Not easy for you at all and sorry to hear this.  Everything crossed that good healing takes place and provides a direction for you to go in. 

Click to expand...

I agree. What I need to know from vet is if we try conservative treatment aka time and it doesn’t fix it, would it then be too late to operate on if that makes sense. Or does it need to be done in the acute phase.

I can’t imagine that there’s no hope for it without something so drastic, I just hope it’s not a decision I have to make now and we can give it a year or so to see.


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## Michen (27 June 2020)

Wheels said:



			I really hope there is improvement on your next scan. 

It's really awful going through things like this
		
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Thank you. It’s absolutely vile I feel like I keep getting it wrong for him. But most importantly he’s in a field and happy.


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## Ambers Echo (27 June 2020)

I'm so sorry Michen. What awful news and what difficult decisions. Thinking of you xxx


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## J&S (27 June 2020)

So sorry you are in this position, as an owner, but as you say, he is out near his friend and essentially happy.  I also understand your reluctance to have him operated on, with or without your previous very bad experience. x


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## HashRouge (27 June 2020)

Michen said:



			Thank you. It’s absolutely vile I feel like I keep getting it wrong for him. But most importantly he’s in a field and happy.
		
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I don't think you are getting it wrong at all; you have put so much time, effort and love into rehabbing him over the past few months. He is lucky to have such a caring owner!

I know it is difficult but try not to keep dwelling on the what ifs and just take things day by day atm. Fingers crossed he will improve and you won't need to make a decision about the GA.


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## CanteringCarrot (27 June 2020)

These two are so lucky to have you.


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## Michen (27 June 2020)

Ambers Echo said:



			I'm so sorry Michen. What awful news and what difficult decisions. Thinking of you xxx
		
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Thank you xx



J&S said:



			So sorry you are in this position, as an owner, but as you say, he is out near his friend and essentially happy.  I also understand your reluctance to have him operated on, with or without your previous very bad experience. x
		
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Thanks. I’m really glad he’s out and he’s very happy in himself. I can’t imagine him living the rest of his life retired in a field though, it’s just so not “him”.



HashRouge said:



			I don't think you are getting it wrong at all; you have put so much time, effort and love into rehabbing him over the past few months. He is lucky to have such a caring owner!

I know it is difficult but try not to keep dwelling on the what ifs and just take things day by day atm. Fingers crossed he will improve and you won't need to make a decision about the GA.
		
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Good advice thank you. I think I’m just getting myself into a total panic about it, I’m not an anxious person at all but every time I think about a GA I get a physical wave of sick feeling and a tightness in my chest- it’s really bizarre and must be linked to loosing Basil in the way that I did.


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## Michen (27 June 2020)

CanteringCarrot said:



			These two are so lucky to have you.
		
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 Thank you. Xx


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## scats (27 June 2020)

Sorry to hear this Michen, but try not to panic just yet. I can totally understand your reluctance to put him under a GA given your past experience but many horses have GA’s every day and are absolutely fine, so don’t rule it out completely.  But then I fully understand if you decide to turn him out and let him retire, as I have done that several times myself xx
Don’t get too far ahead of yourself yet though, just see how the next couple of weeks go.


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## Michen (27 June 2020)

scats said:



			Sorry to hear this Michen, but try not to panic just yet. I can totally understand your reluctance to put him under a GA given your past experience but many horses have GA’s every day and are absolutely fine, so don’t rule it out completely.  But then I fully understand if you decide to turn him out and let him retire, as I have done that several times myself xx
Don’t get too far ahead of yourself yet though, just see how the next couple of weeks go.
		
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What do people do with properly retired horses though? He can’t stay on a livery yard like this one, he would need to be out in a big herd on loads of acreage. But Boggle just loves human interaction, work and stimulation. He is never happier out on the hunting field or going off somewhere in the lorry and I know we can’t put our own emotions onto horses but I know he loves having a varied life. There was about three months last summer where he didn’t go anywhere or do anything other than quiet hacking and he genuinely got a bit flat in his personality and almost grumpy.

It’s just an awful thought for a horse like him.


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## DiNozzo (27 June 2020)

Michen said:



			What do people do with properly retired horses though? He can’t stay on a livery yard like this one, he would need to be out in a big herd on loads of acreage. But Boggle just loves human interaction, work and stimulation. He is never happier out on the hunting field or going off somewhere in the lorry and I know we can’t put our own emotions onto horses but I know he loves having a varied life. There was about three months last summer where he didn’t go anywhere or do anything other than quiet hacking and he genuinely got a bit flat in his personality and almost grumpy.

It’s just an awful thought for a horse like him.
		
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Has he ever been out on huge acreage with lots of friends? If not he'll probably adjust better than you think. 

If he was on his normal livery and wasn't getting to go out to parties and things I can see him going a bit flat, especially if there are other horses getting to go. 

I've never retired due to injury before, so can't help with practical things, but I think lots of horses do cope with a change of circumstances, especially if it also comes with a change in environment (high acreage etc).

Whatever happens, and however it heals, you'll do the best thing for him.


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## Michen (27 June 2020)

DiNozzo said:



			Has he ever been out on huge acreage with lots of friends? If not he'll probably adjust better than you think.

If he was on his normal livery and wasn't getting to go out to parties and things I can see him going a bit flat, especially if there are other horses getting to go.

I've never retired due to injury before, so can't help with practical things, but I think lots of horses do cope with a change of circumstances, especially if it also comes with a change in environment (high acreage etc).

Whatever happens, and however it heals, you'll do the best thing for him.
		
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Not since he was in ireland! The biggest herd I’ve had him in as an attempt was 3.  He’s a bit of a nightmare turned out with other horses. He absolutely terrorised every gelding we tried him with bar one. Is great with mares but understandably no one wants there’s with him!! I’m sure he’d be happy in a decent herd on lots of ground though.


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## ihatework (27 June 2020)

A couple of years ago some good friends of mine took on, for the owners a top competition mare (retired) who was very high maintenance through her years in competition life. Had to be entertained and kept busy etc. Upon retirement they tried multiple times to get her in foal. Not happening. Having been adamant she wouldn’t settle into out 24/7 in a herd and wouldn’t be happy they conceded to try and she came to stud. She let down, learnt not to be reliant on humans and had 2 foals in consecutive years. She arrived needing to be led everywhere in a bridle and left wandering around like a donkey in a headcollar.

Ive seen multiple top end competition horses settle similarly.

But you are fastforwarding too far. You are not into retirement territory yet. He just needs time out to chill and heal.


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## Michen (27 June 2020)

ihatework said:



			A couple of years ago some good friends of mine took on, for the owners a top competition mare (retired) who was very high maintenance through her years in competition life. Had to be entertained and kept busy etc. Upon retirement they tried multiple times to get her in foal. Not happening. Having been adamant she wouldn’t settle into out 24/7 in a herd and wouldn’t be happy they conceded to try and she came to stud. She let down, learnt not to be reliant on humans and had 2 foals in consecutive years. She arrived needing to be led everywhere in a bridle and left wandering around like a donkey in a headcollar.

Ive seen multiple top end competition horses settle similarly.

But you are fastforwarding too far. You are not into retirement territory yet. He just needs time out to chill and heal.
		
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I really hope so. I’ve trawled through lots of twitter eventing posts around manica injuries and so many seem to have had to been operated on for a chance of coming sound.

I can only bloody pray that he will be an exception and time will work for him and this injury.

ps yes agree, I’m sure he would settle and be fine, in truth it’s me that it would be more heartbreaking for to not be interacting properly with him every day.


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## ihatework (27 June 2020)

Well I wouldn’t rule out an op if he needs one. Arthroscopy presumably is quick and fairly low risk. If there is something to tidy up it would be worth doing.


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## ITPersonnage (27 June 2020)

What scats said - how many horses have a GA in a typical vets practise every day ? I know you had a horrific experience but try to be logical about it I know it's so hard - but really try and let go of that bad memory. You trust your vet and he does sound one of the good guys  But if you can't face it I'm sure Bog will adapt to the herd life too. It sounds like you have some hard thinking and I feel very sorry as you tried so hard to get everything right but it sounds like you have the time to sleep on it a few times.


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## Red-1 (27 June 2020)

I do think that Basil was a fluke injury with GA, if I recall correctly, you suspected that the bone was already damaged before he went in. 

It is, of course, your prerogative as to whether he has an OP or not, but the chances of a similar incident are really small. 

Love to you all.


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## milliepops (27 June 2020)

Michen said:



			What do people do with properly retired horses though? He can’t stay on a livery yard like this one, he would need to be out in a big herd on loads of acreage. But Boggle just loves human interaction, work and stimulation. He is never happier out on the hunting field or going off somewhere in the lorry and I know we can’t put our own emotions onto horses but I know he loves having a varied life. There was about three months last summer where he didn’t go anywhere or do anything other than quiet hacking and he genuinely got a bit flat in his personality and almost grumpy.

It’s just an awful thought for a horse like him.
		
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I thought all of this about Millie but she is bossing retirement and is totally happy to watch the rugby pitch next door, or spy on the neighbours, or chase her companions around, snooze, commandeer the shelter, root around in the hedge - you name it, they are just horses when all is said and done and she went from being a busy competition horse to a retiree very easily.  When I appear she will come and see if I've got anything or if I'm providing scratching services and then bugger off when she gets bored of me.

But like IHW I would do the op.


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## Michen (27 June 2020)

Thanks guys. Yes Basil had a kick to leg that didn’t show a fracture but there must have been one. 

I think the stats are something like 1% fatality in recovery. It just feels like an unnecessary risk when he could just retire to the field. Urgh, I don’t know.


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## Michen (27 June 2020)

Yep 1%.


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## Jeni the dragon (27 June 2020)

Huge, huge hugs. Really hoping for some recovery before the vets next visit.


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## DiNozzo (27 June 2020)

Michen said:



			Thanks guys. Yes Basil had a kick to leg that didn’t show a fracture but there must have been one.

I think the stats are something like 1% fatality in recovery. It just feels like an unnecessary risk when he could just retire to the field. Urgh, I don’t know.
		
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Do yourself a favour and don't google the stats/stories. You've got you're own horror story and you don't need to hear others. 

Have a glass of wine, calm down and have a good think about the specific worries you have- is it a reaction to the drug? Getting back on their feet? Write up a list of each specific worry (and they are all valid!) and go back to your vet or whoever it will be doing a possible surgery. 

Ask them first if it needs to be done ASAP or if it can wait until a period of rest has had time to heal it, and then ask about each thing on your list, and see how they can mitigate against those risks and then make your decision after that.


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## SEL (27 June 2020)

Michen said:



			Thanks guys. Yes Basil had a kick to leg that didn’t show a fracture but there must have been one.

I think the stats are something like 1% fatality in recovery. It just feels like an unnecessary risk when he could just retire to the field. Urgh, I don’t know.
		
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You were incredibly unlucky with Basil - but even retirement to a field has its risks and if there is a chance Bog could become sound following the op then surely its worth a shot? Perhaps take a deep breath and ask your vet what he thinks the prognosis is for his ridden career if he does have the op?

I'm sure he would be fine in a field of retirees. Mine were turned away over winter a few years back with a motley collection of resting polo ponies, ex racers and random retirees. They were all pretty feral and very happy. My 2 would come up to see whether there were snacks when I visited but otherwise you'd just see them grazing in their various cliques.


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## ycbm (27 June 2020)

I'm really sorry you're in this position Michen. My two penn'orth, for what it's worth.  



You're one arduous rehab part done and now another to be started again with no guarantee of success.  

You're terrified of losing an animal you love to a GA, which is a known and far too high risk to easily take, especially when you have already lost one that way. 

You would prefer never to ride him again than to lose him to complications from an operation, never mind one which has no guarantee of success. 

This second injury raises a strong possibility of a fundamental weakness in that,  or both,  hind fetlock(s) that suggests a future ridden career is likely to be either be short or very low key, if it is possible at all. 

You're out of insurance funds in a perilous market for the employment sector you work in, and though this is the bottom rank of your concerns,  it still matters.  



All that is perfectly understandable. 




In your shoes,  I would find a big safe field full of ponies, throw him into it for a year and then see where you are.  

.


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## Michen (27 June 2020)

Thanks. I don’t think it shows a fundamental weakness as such (before the injury I mean) in that it would be reflected in the other limb too, because the nature of the injury suggests a trauma/whack. I am fairly convinced he did it in a hole on the hunting field. The original injury has healed really well and still is intact which is great, and I suppose IF the second injury is an adhesion then who knows. It seems odd to me if it’s not related, because you’d have thought the original injury would have still been fragile enough to also be affected by whatever movement/thing that caused the new one. But it was fine on the scan? Doesn’t make sense really does it unless it is an adhesion.

Agree with the rest though.

The money situation is frustrating. It would possibly count as a second claim, but wouldn’t know until they are in there. I don’t particularly want to spend 4/5k on an op but I don’t think it’ll be a factor in my decision making in reality. I’d spend 10k and sell Bear, lorry etc if I really thought it was the best thing for Bog. To be frank there’s no amount of money I wouldn’t spend on that horse so long as I could get my hands on it physically!!

It’s just rubbish frankly.




ycbm said:



			I'm really sorry you're in this position Michen. My two penn'orth, for what it's worth.



You're one arduous rehab part done and now another to be started again with no guarantee of success.

You're terrified of losing an animal you love to a GA, which is a known and far too high risk to easily take, especially when you have already lost one that way.

You would prefer never to ride him again than to lose him to complications from an operation, never mind one which has no guarantee of success.

This second injury raises a strong possibility of a fundamental weakness in that,  or both,  hind fetlock(s) that suggests a future ridden career is likely to be either be short or very low key, if it is possible at all.

You're out of insurance funds in a perilous market for the employment sector you work in, and though this is the bottom rank of your concerns,  it still matters.



All that is perfectly understandable.




In your shoes,  I would find a big safe field full of ponies, throw him into it for a year and then see where you are.

.
		
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## JJS (27 June 2020)

Michen said:



			What do people do with properly retired horses though?
		
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This is a question that those on H&H have a tendency to overthink! When I retired my (previously very active) TB x Connie at seven, the only major change in his life was that he stopped being ridden. He already lived with my other horse, and I was transitioning to them living out 24/7.

Like Boggle, Tudor was the sort of horse who liked doing things, but he still coped remarkably well. He’d been the centre of my world before his retirement, and he never stopped being that. He was groomed and fussed over as much as he’d ever been, and in all honesty, he loved his life. When I lost him in January, I never had to ask myself whether I’d made the wrong decision by retiring him, because he’d had four years of being out with his friends every day and enjoying himself immensely.

The one thing I was slightly bummed about was not being able to do some groundwork or trek type stuff with him, as he had such an active brain that I’m sure he’d have loved it. However, my boy couldn’t even have a head collar on, so a wonderful, happy life in the field it was. I think he would have agreed that there are infinitely worse fates for an early retired horse.


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## EventingMum (27 June 2020)

Take one day at a time is the best advice although it's very hard to do. I really wouldn't worry about retirement, we retired one of ours, he was always a very busy horse, constantly on the move even when grazing and loved being in work and out and about competing. However, he has adjusted to retirement far better than I ever hoped, initially, he would shout and gaze wistfully at the lorry if it was going out but he soon settled. He still demands to come in at night but other than that is very happy.


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## gunnergundog (27 June 2020)

Playing devil's advocate here for a moment.....I fully understand your aversion to a GA, BUT if that was the only option to give him a chance to be sound (as opposed to field sound), would you deny him it? 

Re retiring and what to do with him......some horses take to it easily, some with a bit of management, some with a LOT of management and, maybe, some not at all.  I had an 8 year old eventer - upgraded to intermediate half way through the previous season, came out next season and performance went down hill.  Had 6 months box rest and then was awarded LOU.  I got kicked off a couple of livery yards as when turned out he started jumping out, bonking mares and god knows what.  Was tested to see if he was a rig and that was negative.  I finally found him a home with an ex-MFH on a large farm where they really didn't give a toss about his antics.  Previously, I was getting phone calls X times a day saying 'D has jumped out and is in the XYZ field; D has barged through the electric and is on the XC course; D is bonking A; D has rounded up the sheep; D has chased the groom that went to catch him out of the field......etc etc.  That horse lived until he was 24.  It probably took him six years (at least) to come to terms with his fate,  Would I do it again?  Probably, not.

Just to add, this was not a horse that was just turned out and forgotten.  It was brought in, handled, groomed, led out etc etc.   It was the only horse that I had severe problems with when coming to retirement;  many others took to it like a duck to water.

HOWEVER, YOU ARE WAY TOO FAR AHEAD OF YOURSELF IN YOUR THINKING MADAM!


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## Michen (27 June 2020)

gunnergundog said:



			Playing devil's advocate here for a moment.....I fully understand your aversion to a GA, BUT if that was the only option to give him a chance to be sound (as opposed to field sound), would you deny him it?

Re retiring and what to do with him......some horses take to it easily, some with a bit of management, some with a LOT of management and, maybe, some not at all.  I had an 8 year old eventer - upgraded to intermediate half way through the previous season, came out next season and performance went down hill.  Had 6 months box rest and then was awarded LOU.  I got kicked off a couple of livery yards as when turned out he started jumping out, bonking mares and god knows what.  Was tested to see if he was a rig and that was negative.  I finally found him a home with an ex-MFH on a large farm where they really didn't give a toss about his antics.  Previously, I was getting phone calls X times a day saying 'D has jumped out and is in the XYZ field; D has barged through the electric and is on the XC course; D is bonking A; D has rounded up the sheep; D has chased the groom that went to catch him out of the field......etc etc.  That horse lived until he was 24.  It probably took him six years (at least) to come to terms with his fate,  Would I do it again?  Probably, not.

Just to add, this was not a horse that was just turned out and forgotten.  It was brought in, handled, groomed, led out etc etc.   It was the only horse that I had severe problems with when coming to retirement;  many others took to it like a duck to water.

HOWEVER, YOU ARE WAY TOO FAR AHEAD OF YOURSELF IN YOUR THINKING MADAM!  

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 Thank you xx is it denying him though? If he would be happy retired surely it’s just putting him at risk for my own personal gain because I want to carry on riding him?  I don’t know


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## doodle (27 June 2020)

Having lost one in a GA I don’t think I could do it with another of my horses no matter what the potential outcome. I lost Soli to a fence incident and still constantly panic about fences.


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## Michen (27 June 2020)

What happened with your? Sorry to ask. 


Kamikaze said:



			Having lost one in a GA I don’t think I could do it with another of my horses no matter what the potential outcome. I lost Soli to a fence incident and still constantly panic about fences.
		
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## doodle (27 June 2020)

I think he must have been playing over the fence with another horse, reared and came down over fence then pulled back. He basically ripped/cheese wired a third of his hoof off. Stayed at the vets for a while. Then the pedal bone got infected. They operated and removed a third of the bone. The infection then came back and he was pts. I still panic when I see Robin chat over a fence. You definitely get affected by previous issues with horses.

Sorry my earlier post reads as if I had a horse have a GA. I was meaning that if that had happened to me like you I couldn’t do it again.


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## scats (27 June 2020)

Michen said:



			What do people do with properly retired horses though? He can’t stay on a livery yard like this one, he would need to be out in a big herd on loads of acreage. But Boggle just loves human interaction, work and stimulation. He is never happier out on the hunting field or going off somewhere in the lorry and I know we can’t put our own emotions onto horses but I know he loves having a varied life. There was about three months last summer where he didn’t go anywhere or do anything other than quiet hacking and he genuinely got a bit flat in his personality and almost grumpy.

It’s just an awful thought for a horse like him.
		
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You’d be surprised how easily they adapt once they are out and get a bit soft in condition.  I’ve only had 1 in 30 years who didn’t cope well with retirement, but she was an old girl.

The welsh partbred I had actually stayed on the yard with me for the 12 years of his retirement (he retired at 6 after b*ggering a ligament).  He was in the same routine as the others, aside from the riding.  He just stuffed his face with a Haynet while the others worked, happy as larry.  He still enjoyed being groomed and spending time with me and I kept that relationship with him, which was nice.  My choice for not turning him away to retire was that when he became feral, he was a bit of a nightmare and I still like to be able to handle them when needed, which was impossible when he was left to his own devices. 

You are a long way off that point anyway, but I suppose the only way to know how he would react would be to try it.  I think once he had some mates who were staying out with him full time, he’d adapt.


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## MuffettMischief (27 June 2020)

So sorry to see your news. Try and get in touch with Andy Fiske Jackson at the RVC. He invented the diagnosis for Manica tears, injecting a dye into the tendon sheath and reading the results, it’s his ‘thing’ and he’s brilliant - contrast radiography, has your vet suggested this? I have just retired my 12 year old for this issue, she sounds a very similar character to boggle! We left her turned out for almost a year and it seemed to come right, then it wasn’t looking great again and she went up to RVC who couldn’t find a lameness so didn’t want to operate understandably. We then ran out of insurance. 4 weeks after she came home the leg was ‘up’ and although paddock sound, I wouldn’t want to ride or hunt her again so she is turned away. I didn’t think she would cope but she is loving life. Andy says that the very rarely come right without surgery so have a serious thing about it. Terrifying for you having already lost one under GA. hugs!


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## Michen (27 June 2020)

MuffettMischief said:



			So sorry to see your news. Try and get in touch with Andy Fiske Jackson at the RVC. He invented the diagnosis for Manica tears, injecting a dye into the tendon sheath and reading the results, it’s his ‘thing’ and he’s brilliant - contrast radiography, has your vet suggested this? I have just retired my 12 year old for this issue, she sounds a very similar character to boggle! We left her turned out for almost a year and it seemed to come right, then it wasn’t looking great again and she went up to RVC who couldn’t find a lameness so didn’t want to operate understandably. We then ran out of insurance. 4 weeks after she came home the leg was ‘up’ and although paddock sound, I wouldn’t want to ride or hunt her again so she is turned away. I didn’t think she would cope but she is loving life. Andy says that the very rarely come right without surgery so have a serious thing about it. Terrifying for you having already lost one under GA. hugs!
		
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Thanks. I’m quite shocked by how surgery does seem to be the “only” option for this specific injury. Have trawled through old threads and posts and am reading the same thing. Urgh


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## splashgirl45 (27 June 2020)

sorry michen, i understand why you dont want an op,  try and take one day at a time and re assess in a few months as that was the plan i believe.  i retired my mare but she stayed at the yard and i continued to groom her etc and the only difference was that she didnt get ridden. when my friend rode, she stayed in the stable with hay and was turned out with her horse  when she came back.  if she had stayed comfortable i would have continued for ever.  hope you manage to sort something out..


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## KEK (28 June 2020)

So sorry to hear this  hard decision for you. Personally I would do the surgery and it makes more sense to do it now rather than when all the scar tissue has potentially been laid down incorrectly .. I would want to give him every chance to get back to full function. Easy to say when I'm not the one making the call, though. Good luck.


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## Pinkvboots (28 June 2020)

I think I would contact the specialist the other poster recommended I know a lot of people really rate him for lameness full stop then take it from there.

Your a long way off from retirement honestly I battled on for 2 years trying to get one sound, last resort was turn away for a year it didn't work but she had several things going on and bad scar tissue wasn't a candidate for surgery so we were basically at the end, you are nowhere near that yet you have options try not to worry too much and you have been a fantastic owner


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## ycbm (28 June 2020)

I'm not convinced from what you've written about the original diagnosis and the uncertainty as to how this latest injury was caused while on pen rest, that there is a full picture of what is going on in that leg. Ultrasound is a blunt diagnostic tool. 

I'm concerned for you that you will be put through a whole heap of worry, expense and an emotionally and physically sapping rehab, only to find that something else goes wrong soon after.

In your shoes,  I think I would be asking if it made sense for my remaining insurance funds to be spent on an MRI, then make a decision from there.  

.


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## milliepops (28 June 2020)

ycbm said:



			I'm not convinced from what you've written about the original diagnosis and the uncertainty as to how this latest injury was caused while on pen rest, that there is a full picture of what is going on in that leg. Ultrasound is a blunt diagnostic tool.

I'm concerned for you that you will be put through a whole heap of worry, expense and an emotionally and physically sapping rehab, only to find that something else goes wrong soon after.

In your shoes,  I think I would be asking if it made sense for my remaining insurance funds to be spent on an MRI, then make a decision from there. 

.
		
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My experience was that the US showed an incomplete picture and at surgery the injury was worse than expected (and therefore surgery was essential for satisfactory long term healing). i would be concerned about using up the budget with more diagnostics, if the likelihood is that surgery is still required to tidy up the structures which does seem to be the norm.  Unless the manica is going to trigger a new claim.


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## ycbm (28 June 2020)

milliepops said:



			My experience was that the US showed an incomplete picture and at surgery the injury was worse than expected (and therefore surgery was essential for satisfactory long term healing). i would be concerned about using up the budget with more diagnostics, if the likelihood is that surgery is still required to tidy up the structures which does seem to be the norm.  Unless the manica is going to trigger a new claim.
		
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I was thinking of what the long term prognosis was for him returning to work and staying in one piece,  MP.  It might make the decision easier if an MRI showed it was unlikely to end anywhere but retirement anyway.  

.


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## Ceriann (28 June 2020)

Huge sympathies with where you are with your boy.  You are doing exactly what i would do and thinking ahead, options and worst case scenario.  Ive spent best part of 15 months rehabbing minr for a medial branch injury (left hind), its incredibly hard, expensive (and we had no treatment) and time consuming.  I did a pretty full work up and consequently got the full bad news - mainly feet (which i’ve also rehabbed).  Her prospects of returning to proper work was considered poor and that plays on my mind a lot. I like you am hugely invested in my mare - i would put her through an op if it was her only realistic chance of recovery (and prospect of recovery was decent).  If it helps, she came to me as a bit of a princess, more rugs than she could ever wear, brought in when it rained (and called if left out) and not used to herd t/o.  Shes now out most of the time, rarely rugged and with my two others.  They can adapt in most cases.


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## Michen (28 June 2020)

ycbm said:



			I was thinking of what the long term prognosis was for him returning to work and staying in one piece,  MP.  It might make the decision easier if an MRI showed it was unlikely to end anywhere but retirement anyway. 

.
		
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I don’t think I’d spend the money on an MRI. I have about 500 quid left on the insurance, half of which will he used on another scan in two weeks. If I’m going to spend any money I’d probably rather do the op.

The op does seem to (MP I know yours re injured) have a really high success rate, not just initially either but it not causing an issue for the horse again and then remaining in full work. But obviously we are combining this with another initial injury that also had a guarded prognosis.

I do still think though, whatever he did to do the new thing, it’s a good sign it didn’t re injure the “old” thing as that would surely have been a prime opportunity. So it must be a little robust at least...

Anyway in happier news Boggles jockey came to ride Bear today. He looked absolutely amazing, so flashy and she had him going brilliantly very quickly. A good investment into his education I think!

He finished still full of beans but has since been snoozing. He’s also now in a stable next to Bog which is rather cute.


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## Michen (28 June 2020)

Thanks everybody. Really appreciate all your thoughts and comments, I am taking them all in!

It just seems madness that what started off as an injury so subtle it was almost impossible to know there was an issue, to wondering whether he will ever even be hackable again. How things have gone downhill so quickly I do not know.


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## milliepops (28 June 2020)

it does seem to be generally a successful procedure and I very much doubt Millie would be galloping round the field sound now, if we hadn't done it, i think the frayed bits would have just kept getting inflamed.  I probably could have brought her back to work because it was a fairly minor setback but by then I'd sort of lost the will to keep trying as it was just the last of a long line of field injuries, and as a hindleg was going to come under increased pressure with canter piris, half steps etc.


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## Michen (28 June 2020)

milliepops said:



			it does seem to be generally a successful procedure and I very much doubt Millie would be galloping round the field sound now, if we hadn't done it, i think the frayed bits would have just kept getting inflamed.  I probably could have brought her back to work because it was a fairly minor setback but by then I'd sort of lost the will to keep trying as it was just the last of a long line of field injuries, and as a hindleg was going to come under increased pressure with canter piris, half steps etc.
		
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Do you think she wouldn’t have been field sound!? That didn’t really occur to me. He’s 4/10 lame at trot with it at the moment.


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## AnShanDan (28 June 2020)

Really sorry you're facing this, it is such a rubbish situation. I just wanted to add that I have three horses and 2 of them have had GAs, one of them twice. All were planned ops to "well" horses, two legs and one ex lap. All of them were text book successes with no complications or issues. Vets at my local vet college said that if you exclude the emergencies (colic and others), the mortality is a lot less than 1%.
Only you can decide, good luck.


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## milliepops (28 June 2020)

I think it would have settled and flared up repeatedly, that's what they told me afterwards. Because you can't tell them to only toddle around the field nicely so they don't hurt themselves, I think the same thing that would have flared up with work would have done with any field hooleys (she did it in the field in the first place).  Millie loves zipping round the field


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## Michen (28 June 2020)

milliepops said:



			I think it would have settled and flared up repeatedly, that's what they told me afterwards. Because you can't tell them to only toddle around the field nicely so they don't hurt themselves, I think the same thing that would have flared up with work would have done with any field hooleys (she did it in the field in the first place).  Millie loves zipping round the field 

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So does Boggle. He's a busy busy horse. Oh fml, it didn't occur to me he could be lame in the field. Panic mode here  My vet did actually say these tears can be very painful.

URGH.


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## milliepops (28 June 2020)

well i wouldn't panic, but i would quiz the vet next time you speak to them about prognosis if you don't want to go for it, probably the time to get all those questions out in the open so you are making a fully informed decision.  for me, the worry that she might have persistent issues from it overrode my fear of the GA.  (nothing to lose, kind of thoughts).


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## Michen (28 June 2020)

milliepops said:



			well i wouldn't panic, but i would quiz the vet next time you speak to them about prognosis if you don't want to go for it, probably the time to get all those questions out in the open so you are making a fully informed decision.  for me, the worry that she might have persistent issues from it overrode my fear of the GA.  (nothing to lose, kind of thoughts).
		
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Yup I didn't ask. I just assumed he would be fine in the field. I didn't ask many questions because although he was not happy with what he found, he seemed relatively positive it would "settle" quickly. He even said assuming Boggle was pretty sound after two weeks, he'd like the walking to be ramped back up again and re commence to normal levels fairly quickly. So I sort of felt it couldn't be that big of a problem and was more of a really disappointing set back. It didn't even occur to me at the time it was something that may need surgery to fix. Of course Boggle being a lunatic the morning the vet came back to assess is somewhat frustrating as we couldn't really then get a true picture.

If he's going to be having flare ups in the field that make him 4/10 lame that puts a very different spin on things.


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## ycbm (28 June 2020)

It just seems madness that what started off as an injury so subtle it was almost impossible to know there was an issue, to wondering whether he will ever even be hackable again. How things have gone downhill so quickly I do not know.
		
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That's horses for you  

.


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## MuffettMischief (28 June 2020)

Michen said:



			I don’t think I’d spend the money on an MRI. I have about 500 quid left on the insurance, half of which will he used on another scan in two weeks. If I’m going to spend any money I’d probably rather do the op.

The op does seem to (MP I know yours re injured) have a really high success rate, not just initially either but it not causing an issue for the horse again and then remaining in full work. But obviously we are combining this with another initial injury that also had a guarded prognosis.

I do still think though, whatever he did to do the new thing, it’s a good sign it didn’t re injure the “old” thing as that would surely have been a prime opportunity. So it must be a little robust at least...

Anyway in happier news Boggles jockey came to ride Bear today. He looked absolutely amazing, so flashy and she had him going brilliantly very quickly. A good investment into his education I think!

He finished still full of beans but has since been snoozing. He’s also now in a stable next to Bog which is rather cute.


View attachment 50738
View attachment 50739

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if they do think it’s a Manica injury, I would be tempted to ask them to do the contrast radiography instead as it’s the only way to see it. An ultrasound won’t show it, then get them to send to Andy for a look. It might be a better way to spend what you have left


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## Michen (28 June 2020)

MuffettMischief said:



			if they do think it’s a Manica injury, I would be tempted to ask them to do the contrast radiography instead as it’s the only way to see it. An ultrasound won’t show it, then get them to send to Andy for a look. It might be a better way to spend what you have left
		
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But we can see it? It was found on ultrasound. Or do you mean the extent of it?


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## Michen (28 June 2020)

ycbm said:



			That's horses for you 

.
		
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I seem to have a particularly poor track record with broken horses. Poor Bear will be hoping for a sale!


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## SEL (28 June 2020)

Michen said:



			I seem to have a particularly poor track record with broken horses. Poor Bear will be hoping for a sale!
		
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I know that feeling! Now wondering if that's why the new pony keeps trying to escape from the field....


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## Michen (28 June 2020)

Urgh Boggle is trying to kill me. Just went completely mental in the field for no reason. He’s just such a bloody idiot, how can the tear possibly look better on scan when he’s doing stuff like that.

Bear just looked at him like he was a total moron and I agree.


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## ycbm (28 June 2020)

Michen said:



			I seem to have a particularly poor track record with broken horses. Poor Bear will be hoping for a sale!
		
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Don't beat yourself up,  I lost one a year for three years in 2011/2/3

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## Ambers Echo (28 June 2020)

Max was retired and Ginny put down in the same year. Now Amber is lame too. It's shite but it's just horses. Before that I'd gone years without any horse having a problem. Thinking of you xxx


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## doodle (28 June 2020)

Just horses. I lost 2 in 7months.


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## Michen (28 June 2020)

Well I discussed with ex (vet) OH today. Good to get an off the record second opinion although he’s not seen the scans. His good friend is also part owner of a large referral hospital and they have spoken to their surgeon who specialises in the tenoscopy procedures and I have his number to discuss with him tomorrow.

I have a lot to think about. I can’t see how the scan will show an improvement whilst he’s being turned out. I’m going to gather as much info as I can and see.

Now I may need to think seriously about selling Bear to pay for Boggle- I REALLY don’t want to sell Bear 🙈. Oh what a funny rollercoaster of emotions eh.


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## JJS (28 June 2020)

Michen said:



			Well I discussed with ex (vet) OH today. Good to get an off the record second opinion although he’s not seen the scans. His good friend is also part owner of a large referral hospital and they have spoken to their surgeon who specialises in the tenoscopy procedures and I have his number to discuss with him tomorrow.

I have a lot to think about. I can’t see how the scan will show an improvement whilst he’s being turned out. I’m going to gather as much info as I can and see.

Now I may need to think seriously about selling Bear to pay for Boggle- I REALLY don’t want to sell Bear 🙈. Oh what a funny rollercoaster of emotions eh.
		
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What a horrible situation to be in. I really hope you can find a solution that works for you and both of your boys. Have got everything crossed for you, Michen 🤞🏻


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## Caol Ila (28 June 2020)

Michen said:



			What do people do with properly retired horses though? He can’t stay on a livery yard like this one, he would need to be out in a big herd on loads of acreage. But Boggle just loves human interaction, work and stimulation. He is never happier out on the hunting field or going off somewhere in the lorry and I know we can’t put our own emotions onto horses but I know he loves having a varied life. There was about three months last summer where he didn’t go anywhere or do anything other than quiet hacking and he genuinely got a bit flat in his personality and almost grumpy.

It’s just an awful thought for a horse like him.
		
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This all sucks. I have a horse who can't be turned out with others and has some neuroses about turnout and loves doing things with humans, and that was the nightmare scenario -- an injury that would have required her to be retired young. What do you do with a horse like that? I never had an answer and thank god, never needed one. At her age now, the answer is obvious. But it used scare the hell out of me.

Don't know if Boggle is as 'unretirable' as Gypsum, and I know you're understandably freaked out by GA, but I would speak to the vets and consider the surgery if there was a good chance of a positive outcome. For Gypsum at eight or nine or whatever, it would have been worth the risk. What other option was there? 

Boggle might not be as neurotic, in which case retirement isn't daft, but it sounds like he has some similar quirks.


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## Rosemary28 (29 June 2020)

No advice to offer Michen, just wanted to say how sorry I feel for you with all this going on! Thinking of you and your wonderful boys.


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## Ownedby4horses (29 June 2020)

OP, I haven’t posted until now as have been hoping for good news.

I’m a great believer that animals come into our lives at certain times for a particular reason.  Could it be that Boggle can’t be “fixed” and that he could be retired. Bear may have been brought into your life to be your next ridden horse and Boggle will learn to be retired. 

Could it be that having the hope Boggle could be fixed is adding more stress to your situation and making you stay a bit more distanced from Bear?  

It would be such an incredibly awful situation if you were left pining for Boggle if he ended up retired and you had sold Bear, I think you would really miss Bear too.

I don’t like to give a “if it was me” comment, as obviously I’m not emotionally invested or in your situation but I want to give you another option to help ease some stress, I would personally think that Boggle can’t be fixed and turn him away and see what happens with him (if obviously he is sound enough to turn away) and focus on Bear for a while without thinking of selling him? 

I so desperately want to wave a magic wand to make things right for you and your boys.


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## CanteringCarrot (29 June 2020)

I haven't known exactly what to say, as I think you're handling the situation the best that you can. I've never lost a horse to GA, and haven't had issues with it thus far. Knowing me, I'd do the procedure because I'd be looking at my heart horse everyday in the field wondering if he's alright, if he feels his best, should I have tried more, and long for the opportunity to ride him again. Your thought process may be entirely different, and that's fine! You do what makes you feel best. 

As for Bear, I'd hold on to him for as long as possible and continue his education. 

Those are just my thoughts, but I am a complete outsider and can only begin to imagine what this must be like for you. As I said before, both are incredibly fortunate to have you. Best wishes moving forward with whatever you may choose to do.


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## Michen (29 June 2020)

Well I’ve rung pretty much every referral practice I’d consider sending Boggle too and spoken to a surgeon. Interesting variation on prices, minimum of 2.5k and up to 3.5/3.7k for Rossdales.

Royal Veterinary College were middle ground cost wise and that is where Andy Fiske is based (mentioned in this thread).

I’d need to budget another 1k or so in aftercare I expect. So it’s doable, but it also seems it would be another 4 months in a box for Boggle. I wish horses could talk and I could ask him what he would want, potentially to be more comfortable in the field for the rest of his days or even ridden, or take his chances and live in possible varying low- medium levels of lameness depending on what antics he gets up to? Surgeon re iterated what others have said- that these “can” be very hard to get settled on their own even without any pressure being put under it in the form of work. 

Take my emotional state, money etc out of the equation- what is best for my poor bloody horse?


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## ihatework (29 June 2020)

For me if it is something operable, that is routinely operated on rather than just rested, then on a young fit otherwise healthy horse there is only one option for me. Operate. That is coming a huge supporter of Dr.Green.

And if RVC are mid price and have a vet that specialises in this then that is where I would send him.


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## TheMule (29 June 2020)

I totally sympathize. It's a very personal decision that we can’t make for you.
My old event horse was diagnosed as needing his annular ligament cut at 13, but I knew he wouldn’t cope well with the anaesthetic (I was terrified about him panicking whilst standing up, as you are) and he would have hated the box rest, plus he was impossible to do controlled walk exercise with so I turned him away instead and he did come back to work sound, but it clearly restricted him as he didn’t enjoy his eventing again so was retired from competition and became a schoolmaster for another few years. I don’t regret that decision, it was right for him.


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## Ambers Echo (29 June 2020)

Michen said:



			Surgeon re iterated what others have said- that these “can” be very hard to get settled on their own even without any pressure being put under it in the form of work.

Take my emotional state, money etc out of the equation- what is best for my poor bloody horse?
		
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Given the vet advice,  I would say surgery is best for your horse. But I totally understand why that scares the sh1t out of you given your history. But I assume the risk of of GA is lower than 1% if you factor in tjhe age/health of the horse, time under etc. Can you ask your vet for an estimate of risk for Boggle?

So sorry you are going through. Given how subtle this whole thing seemed at the start, you must feel totally side swiped by it.


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## NinjaPony (29 June 2020)

Personally, I would go for the surgery. Boggle is still young, fit and likes to have a good run around, and I think the surgery would give him the best outcome if it all goes smoothly. Otherwise, you may find that the injury reoccurs regularly which will mean he can’t have a decent retirement. Even if you decide not to ride him again I think it’s worth doing to try and give him a good retirement. And it may be that the surgery allows you to bring him back into work, which would be the best outcome for everyone.


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## ycbm (29 June 2020)

This is about you as well as Bog, though Michen. You have written with such joy and excitement about hunting and eventing.  

I personally wouldn't sell a good horse to give another one a chance of a long retirement.   

What is the prognosis of Bog ever returning to a level of work which would satisfy your own needs?  

Remember too that after spending all that money,  even if he came back to full work,  that horses can just up sticks and die of all sorts at any time. Spending the money,  even with a great prognosis,  is no guarantee of him staying around to enjoy life.  

.


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## Michen (29 June 2020)

TheMule said:



			I totally sympathize. It's a very personal decision that we can’t make for you.
My old event horse was diagnosed as needing his annular ligament cut at 13, but I knew he wouldn’t cope well with the anaesthetic (I was terrified about him panicking whilst standing up, as you are) and he would have hated the box rest, plus he was impossible to do controlled walk exercise with so I turned him away instead and he did come back to work sound, but it clearly restricted him as he didn’t enjoy his eventing again so was retired from competition and became a schoolmaster for another few years. I don’t regret that decision, it was right for him.
		
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Boggle is actually fine on box rest. Yes he can occasionally get lit up if there’s lots of activity but he’s not stressy in the box as a general rule, he chills out and snoozes and eats a lot now! Equally with the walking as long as it was on the yard he was always pretty much fine, I just had to make sure I timed things well.

I know he *will* cope with it. But he’s also a total twit in the field hence the second injury so I’m worried about how I’ll ever get to the point of turning him out again if I do operate.


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## Northern (29 June 2020)

Michen said:



			Well I’ve rung pretty much every referral practice I’d consider sending Boggle too and spoken to a surgeon. Interesting variation on prices, minimum of 2.5k and up to 3.5/3.7k for Rossdales.

Royal Veterinary College were middle ground cost wise and that is where Andy Fiske is based (mentioned in this thread).

I’d need to budget another 1k or so in aftercare I expect. So it’s doable, but it also seems it would be another 4 months in a box for Boggle. I wish horses could talk and I could ask him what he would want, potentially to be more comfortable in the field for the rest of his days or even ridden, or take his chances and live in possible varying low- medium levels of lameness depending on what antics he gets up to? Surgeon re iterated what others have said- that these “can” be very hard to get settled on their own even without any pressure being put under it in the form of work.

Take my emotional state, money etc out of the equation- what is best for my poor bloody horse?
		
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If I had the means to do it, and on a young horse, with a reasonable chance of recovery, it would be a no-brainer for me. Appreciate it isn't so black and white for you, but to me the pros of the surgery would outweight the cons and risk of the GA. I have done so before and would do so again. Unfortunately I dithered for too long (somewhat on vets advice as well) and the outcome wasn't successful (GA was perfectly fine though!). One piece of advice from me is to get it done ASAP and not months down the track, it may become unsalvageable as was the case with my mare. Certainly in my case, operating did give the best chance of paddock soundness, she was put down after a further paddock accident.

ETA: Having another horse to ride and distract me was a godsend, if you have the means to keep Bear alongside Boggle whilst he is recovering.


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## ycbm (29 June 2020)

If you do take money out of the equation,  i personally wouldn't put a horse through another four months of box rest and a rehab with no explanation of how he did this further injury on pen rest.  

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## milliepops (29 June 2020)

ihatework said:



			For me if it is something operable, that is routinely operated on rather than just rested, then on a young fit otherwise healthy horse there is only one option for me. Operate. That is coming a huge supporter of Dr.Green.

And if RVC are mid price and have a vet that specialises in this then that is where I would send him.
		
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this would be my position too.


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## Dyllymoo (29 June 2020)

I've just caught up, I'm so sorry to hear about Boggle   I cant advise on what you should/ shouldn't do as I know you will make the right decision for you both.

Such an awful situation though


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## ycbm (29 June 2020)

Michen I just want to add there is no wrong answer on this one,  you must do what works for you.  

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## Michen (29 June 2020)

ycbm said:



			This is about you as well as Bog, though Michen. You have written with such joy and excitement about hunting and eventing.

I personally wouldn't sell a good horse to give another one a chance of a long retirement.

What is the prognosis of Bog ever returning to a level of work which would satisfy your own needs?

Remember too that after spending all that money,  even if he came back to full work,  that horses can just up sticks and die of all sorts at any time. Spending the money,  even with a great prognosis,  is no guarantee of him staying around to enjoy life.

.
		
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The stats from the new injury are something like 80% return to full work. If he hasn’t re torn his original injury with the immense amount of twatting around in the field he’s currently doing (which makes me want to sob, frankly) I would say his chances for that one must be pretty good too. At this point however I have ZERO expectations.

Honestly I don’t mind. Of course I love the eventing and hunting but I’d already ruled out hunting him again. At this point as long as he’s around and I see him every day and he can hack about I’d be delighted with that! Not sure how much of a relaxing happy hacker he’d be though! If he comes sound enough to be happy in the field without it bothering him too much then that’s Money well spent too in my opinion

But I can’t put him in the field if he’s going to have flare ups of being 4/10 lame for the rest of his life. So even if the op just brings him field sound and comfortable then that’s got to be worth considering, at least? I can’t just wait and see as the build up of scar tissue will make it impossible to then fix in a year or so.

My back is basically up against a wall.

This horse has done everything I’ve ever asked of him and more. He’s saved my arse out hunting so many times, and other people’s and he’s done nothing but try his absolute best for me out competing. If all my 3.5-4K gets me is him being comfortable in the field then I am very happy to spend the money to give him that.


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## Bellaboo18 (29 June 2020)

ihatework said:



			For me if it is something operable, that is routinely operated on rather than just rested, then on a young fit otherwise healthy horse there is only one option for me. Operate. That is coming a huge supporter of Dr.Green.

And if RVC are mid price and have a vet that specialises in this then that is where I would send him.
		
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There's no right answer but this is what I'd do.


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## milliepops (29 June 2020)

ycbm said:



			If you do take money out of the equation,  i personally wouldn't put a horse through another four months of box rest and a rehab with no explanation of how he did this further injury on pen rest. 

.
		
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i didn't think this was an unknown? didn't he just prat about when he started turnout?  my horse did the same injury turning awkwardly in the field. it's shitty luck but I don't think it affects his chance of recovery when I believe Michen had indicated that the original injury had been healing well.

I get the point about how do you restart turnout, been there.. i don't think there's an easy answer but this is why I have always tried to get mine doing plenty of work before putting them back in the field after a rehab, so they are already standing up to a degree of strain.


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## Michen (29 June 2020)

milliepops said:



			i didn't think this was an unknown? didn't he just prat about when he started turnout?  my horse did the same injury turning awkwardly in the field. it's shitty luck but I don't think it affects his chance of recovery when I believe Michen had indicated that the original injury had been healing well.

I get the point about how do you restart turnout, been there.. i don't think there's an easy answer but this is why I have always tried to get mine doing plenty of work before putting them back in the field after a rehab, so they are already standing up to a degree of strain.
		
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He pratted about and the vet things he could have stood on a stone and sort of flipped his fetlock back, a rut or whatnot and done it. I feel like an idiot as there were some big ish stones in his sectioned off field but I didn’t even really notice them.

it’s possible it’s very connected to the original injury and is an adhesion, which would be a good thing I suppose as it makes sense and isn’t something new as such. I think vet thinks this is likely despite the new thing being quite far away from old thing, because the old thing is still intact and looking good.


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## scats (29 June 2020)

You’ve had lots of good advice Michen, so I won’t get too involved in that as your head is probably spinning as it is but if I were you I would try and keep hold of Bear if you can.  You love riding and you do a brilliant job bringing youngsters on and sometimes you need that little ‘hook’ to keep you going while a different horse is going through box rest or rehab or whatever.  I’ve always made sure I had a horse to ride whenever I’ve had had 1 or 2 others out of action (at one point I had 2 out at one time with soft tissue injuries from field gymnastics..)  I honestly don’t think I could have done it otherwise as my mental health is so closely entwined with the horses that I would have been a in a really dark hole.
I understand finances may come into play if you need the money for Boggle’s surgery, but if you can, for you, try to keep hold of Bear.


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## Michen (29 June 2020)

scats said:



			You’ve had lots of good advice Michen, so I won’t get too involved in that as your head is probably spinning as it is but if I were you I would try and keep hold of Bear if you can.  You love riding and you do a brilliant job bringing youngsters on and sometimes you need that little ‘hook’ to keep you going while a different horse is going through box rest or rehab or whatever.  I’ve always made sure I had a horse to ride whenever I’ve had had 1 or 2 others out of action (at one point I had 2 out at one time with soft tissue injuries from field gymnastics..)  I honestly don’t think I could have done it otherwise as my mental health is so closely entwined with the horses that I would have been a in a really dark hole.
I understand finances may come into play if you need the money for Boggle’s surgery, but if you can, for you, try to keep hold of Bear.
		
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Thank you. I can keep hold of Bear for now in reality, in the sense that I can release the funds without needing to sell him. If the shit hits the fan in some way of course I’d need to re consider, life can through curveballs, but as things stand I don’t NEED to sell him.

Tbh, I sort of have the money for the op, it was just meant to pay off a credit card which I was really looking forward to doing 🙄.


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## Michen (29 June 2020)

Think this pic sums it up really, me being an idiot hunting 5 weeks post op for a broken ankle. There’s Boggle just standing quietly watching the rest of the field go off whilst I wait until the mad rush is gone so I can just pootle about at the back. And this is a horse under normal circumstances that Is immensely hard to hold on the hunting field.

That’s a best mate for you, 4K for him to retire (or not) as healthy and pain free as possible is absolutely nothing. IF it’s what’s right for him. That’s the bit I need to work out for sure!


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## NinjaPony (29 June 2020)

I totally understand where you are coming from. If I could fix my pony of a lifetime with money, I'd rob a bank and sell a kidney for him. Not rational, but he is irreplaceable. Unfortunately that's not the case for me. Really wishing you the best, you know your  pony best and you need to trust your own instincts about what is right for him. You will make the right choice.


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## Michen (29 June 2020)

ihatework said:



			For me if it is something operable, that is routinely operated on rather than just rested, then on a young fit otherwise healthy horse there is only one option for me. Operate. That is coming a huge supporter of Dr.Green.

And if RVC are mid price and have a vet that specialises in this then that is where I would send him.
		
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Yes I think RVC would be my first choice if I do it.

I've asked them to revert on the cost of the dye diagnostic tool he does, which should help indicate how successful or not a surgery is likely to be.


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## gunnergundog (29 June 2020)

If you have decided who you want to do the surgery, that's fine, but if you are just looking at prices at the moment make sure that you get a full list of everything that the price does and does not include.  It's amazing how a cheap price that doesn't include dressings, post-op x-rays/scans, in-hand walking etc etc can end up more expensive than the top priced one.

Also, when it comes to rehab I would suggest that you look to somewhere that has specialist facilities and is equipped to do the job rather than try and go it alone.  Yes, it means letting go but sometimes you have to in the short term in order to give the horse the best possible chance.


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## Michen (29 June 2020)

gunnergundog said:



			If you have decided who you want to do the surgery, that's fine, but if you are just looking at prices at the moment make sure that you get a full list of everything that the price does and does not include.  It's amazing how a cheap price that doesn't include dressings, post-op x-rays/scans, in-hand walking etc etc can end up more expensive than the top priced one.

Also, when it comes to rehab I would suggest that you look to somewhere that has specialist facilities and is equipped to do the job rather than try and go it alone.  Yes, it means letting go but sometimes you have to in the short term in order to give the horse the best possible chance.
		
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Yep I did clarify that.

I don’t think a specialist rehab yard is necessary as I had no trouble rehabbing his box rest and walking element myself (bar leaving the yard hacking which required dope). I would want to do it myself and ensure it’s done to the letter, I wouldn’t send him off anywhere for that aspect unless it was crucial to his recovery for some reason. I don’t feel there’s anything anyone else can do walking and box rest wise that I can’t.  But I would need to re think what I would do with him when the time comes to be turned out again.


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## Pinkvboots (29 June 2020)

Michen said:



			Yep I did clarify that.

I don’t think a specialist rehab yard is necessary as I had no trouble rehabbing his box rest and walking element myself (bar leaving the yard hacking which required dope). I would want to do it myself and ensure it’s done to the letter, I wouldn’t send him off anywhere for that aspect unless it was crucial to his recovery for some reason. I don’t feel there’s anything anyone else can do walking and box rest wise that I can’t.  But I would need to re think what I would do with him when the time comes to be turned out again.
		
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I think if he really is being a prat in the field I would have him back in or change his routine, one of mine was actually better on complete box rest the turnout in a small field seemed to blow his brain, when he was healed I would dope him and just put him out while I could keep an eye on him and it would only be for for a few hours tops, what really helped as well I made a small fenced pen outside his stable on concrete he happily stood there eating hay never ever freaked out, I am not saying you have done anything wrong you may just have to do something different to keep him calmer, it's an absolute nightmare knowing what's best when they have to have turn out after a box rest period I know I have been through it a lot with several different horses.


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## Michen (29 June 2020)

Pinkvboots said:



			I think if he really is being a prat in the field I would have him back in or change his routine, one of mine was actually better on complete box rest the turnout in a small field seemed to blow his brain, when he was healed I would dope him and just put him out while I could keep an eye on him and it would only be for for a few hours tops, what really helped as well I made a small fenced pen outside his stable on concrete he happily stood there eating hay never ever freaked out, I am not saying you have done anything wrong you may just have to do something different to keep him calmer, it's an absolute nightmare knowing what's best when they have to have turn out after a box rest period I know I have been through it a lot with several different horses.
		
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I know  I knew he'd be a prat, which is why we did an extra month nearly where he went in a straw filled pen in a different area of yard (pen no longer there now). I tried him in small field very close to stables, but too much activity. So put him right down the end (5/10 min walk from yard), with Bear and other quiet horses. Still a prat.


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## palo1 (29 June 2020)

Michen said:



			The stats from the new injury are something like 80% return to full work. If he hasn’t re torn his original injury with the immense amount of twatting around in the field he’s currently doing (which makes me want to sob, frankly) I would say his chances for that one must be pretty good too. At this point however I have ZERO expectations.

Honestly I don’t mind. Of course I love the eventing and hunting but I’d already ruled out hunting him again. At this point as long as he’s around and I see him every day and he can hack about I’d be delighted with that! Not sure how much of a relaxing happy hacker he’d be though! If he comes sound enough to be happy in the field without it bothering him too much then that’s Money well spent too in my opinion

But I can’t put him in the field if he’s going to have flare ups of being 4/10 lame for the rest of his life. So even if the op just brings him field sound and comfortable then that’s got to be worth considering, at least? I can’t just wait and see as the build up of scar tissue will make it impossible to then fix in a year or so.

My back is basically up against a wall.

This horse has done everything I’ve ever asked of him and more. He’s saved my arse out hunting so many times, and other people’s and he’s done nothing but try his absolute best for me out competing. If all my 3.5-4K gets me is him being comfortable in the field then I am very happy to spend the money to give him that.
		
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It's really hard and I am really hesitant to comment in all honesty but if this were my horse (and I have no insurance and would be quite reluctant to spend that sort of money tbh!!) I would go for the op.  Boggle is young, his earlier injury appears to have healed well which is great, the stats for the success of the op are excellent (in equine terms), you love riding him and that would be your preference.  IF the op is successful as could be expected Boggle could return to a really decent level of work which would be fantastic and is at least a strong possibility in that scenario.   The GA is a worry and I would not usually consider a GA - especially for colic or for a horse over about 10 y/o but we all have different feelings about that. If he can't be ridden after the op he may well be field sound and have a retirement that is comfortable at the very least.  Without the op you may not be able to be confident that he is comfortable over any period of time.   I would personally struggle with retiring such a young horse , potentially for many years, especially if I was not confident he was comfortable and heartbreaking though it would be (I know, I have had to do this for a young horse whose injury could not resolve) if that were the case I would let him go after having had a lovely time for a while but I can understand how difficult a decision that might be.   But the op would give you and him more options and more time.  If the very worst happened during the GA or in recovery, I would feel that I had been doing my very best to get the right outcome.  I think the chances of disaster during the GA under these circs are small enough to justify what could be an excellent outcome.   It seems, from the research you have done that the op provides the statistically best option for him. 

 The cost is not absolutely vast and never-ending and if you leave him be, he could go on re-injuring that injury which in itself will cost you in emotional and possibly financial terms too.  There are no certainties with horses sadly and they cannot tell us whether another few months of box rest is too much, or whether they will behave when turned out.  I would also be planning to do as much as possible to mitigate him being a twerp when released from box rest - is mild sedation possible? 

None of this however is from the perspective of your emotional position, nor your fear of the GA or multiple other things that only you can mentally square up. You really have to be as comfortable as possible with whatever decision you make and you know Boggle best.


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## Michen (29 June 2020)

palo1 said:



			It's really hard and I am really hesitant to comment in all honesty but if this were my horse (and I have no insurance and would be quite reluctant to spend that sort of money tbh!!) I would go for the op.  Boggle is young, his earlier injury appears to have healed well which is great, the stats for the success of the op are excellent (in equine terms), you love riding him and that would be your preference.  IF the op is successful as could be expected Boggle could return to a really decent level of work which would be fantastic and is at least a strong possibility in that scenario.   The GA is a worry and I would not usually consider a GA - especially for colic or for a horse over about 10 y/o but we all have different feelings about that. If he can't be ridden after the op he may well be field sound and have a retirement that is comfortable at the very least.  Without the op you may not be able to be confident that he is comfortable over any period of time.   I would personally struggle with retiring such a young horse , potentially for many years, especially if I was not confident he was comfortable and heartbreaking though it would be (I know, I have had to do this for a young horse whose injury could not resolve) if that were the case I would let him go after having had a lovely time for a while but I can understand how difficult a decision that might be.   But the op would give you and him more options and more time.  If the very worst happened during the GA or in recovery, I would feel that I had been doing my very best to get the right outcome.  I think the chances of disaster during the GA under these circs are small enough to justify what could be an excellent outcome.   It seems, from the research you have done that the op provides the statistically best option for him.

The cost is not absolutely vast and never-ending and if you leave him be, he could go on re-injuring that injury which in itself will cost you in emotional and possibly financial terms too.  There are no certainties with horses sadly and they cannot tell us whether another few months of box rest is too much, or whether they will behave when turned out.  I would also be planning to do as much as possible to mitigate him being a twerp when released from box rest - is mild sedation possible?

None of this however is from the perspective of your emotional position, nor your fear of the GA or multiple other things that only you can mentally square up. You really have to be as comfortable as possible with whatever decision you make and you know Boggle best.
		
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This is a really thought provoking post tbh and sort of where I am at. My biggest fear now is I retire him with no op, he is not sound even in field, then it's too late to operate and I have to consider putting him down. That's not an option if there is any amount of money that could be spent even if it was ONLY to make him field sound.

If I do this op, I will be doing it with the expectation and hope that it makes him comfortable in the field at the very least.. even if it doesn't fix him enough to do any ridden work. Anything else then would be a brilliant bonus.. so set the bar low I guess?

I think I've made up my mind guys. I actually want to speak to my vet asap as I'm not even convinced at this point that another £250 on a scan is worthwhile in 10 days, the referral hosp would probably do their own scan so I wonder if it's better to save the money and do that there. Even if it shows signs of healing I have still read of very very few cases where its properly healed successfully on its own.


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## ester (29 June 2020)

fwiw I would op.


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## palo1 (29 June 2020)

Michen said:



			This is a really thought provoking post tbh and sort of where I am at. My biggest fear now is I retire him with no op, he is not sound even in field, then it's too late to operate and I have to consider putting him down. That's not an option if there is any amount of money that could be spent even if it was ONLY to make him field sound.

If I do this op, I will be doing it with the expectation and hope that it makes him comfortable in the field at the very least.. even if it doesn't fix him enough to do any ridden work. Anything else then would be a brilliant bonus.. so set the bar low I guess?

I think I've made up my mind guys. I actually want to speak to my vet asap as I'm not even convinced at this point that another £250 on a scan is worthwhile in 10 days, the referral hosp would probably do their own scan so I wonder if it's better to save the money and do that there. Even if it shows signs of healing I have still read of very very few cases where its properly healed successfully on its own.
		
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I suspect that IF things went as expected with an op your highest risk is when you get to turnout stage and I would personally delay that for as long as possible.  It would be very hard emotionally possibly but that is what you may have to do to get a decent outcome with this horse.  As Milliepops has said, it is possible to have a horse doing a decent level of work having shown almost complete healing before you trust them in the field.  Perhaps factor in keeping Boggle stabled extensively until his injury is effectively not a factor and then consider a programme of sedated turnout? It would be a barsteward if the op and recovery went brilliantly only for him to knacker himself again when turned out! Difficult for you.


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## Ownedby4horses (29 June 2020)

OP, I’m glad that you feel you have reached a decision. Lots of great advice on here. 

I think it’s safe to say, whatever the final decision, we will certainly all be here to support you and Boggle and there will be lots of positive vibes sent to help you both. x


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## DabDab (29 June 2020)

Sorry to hear about Boggle M 

I would feel the same as you I think - if there was even a chance of field sound I would get the op. I'd do what you can to cling onto Bear too though, until Bog's prognosis is a bit clearer. Obviously don't put yourself in financial difficulty, but making more money is easier than feeling like you haven't done everything to help a horse who owes you nothing, or replacing such a nice young horse as Bear


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## Michen (29 June 2020)

So er... I’m an idiot. Just had an hours call with Andy at RCV (lovely lovely man btw!), and after 15 mins we realised we were talking different structures. Boggle has injured his digital manica not his manica flexoria although they are similar/do the same sort of thing but Boggles is below the fetlock.

Andy has NEVER seen or heard of one with this injury. He had to drag up a case study to find one. He said most vets wouldn’t even know the structure exists!!! That it would be a super rare thing to happen which does make the theory of it being an adhesion even more likely as otherwise it’s just so bizarre and frankly ridiculously bad luck.

He said in principal it should be as successful op wise as a manica flexoria, but obviously can’t give any success rates because he doesn’t know anyone whose even done one. But he did say try the conservative treatment first.. let the steroid work and do it’s thing. He also said he’d want to get the horse back under saddle and ramp up the work inc trot etc to make sure he was still saying sound and it was truly settled- to make sure if surgery was required it could be done sooner rather than later because if it ISN’T adhesion related you really want it tidied up ASAP rather than scar tissue forming. He also said you can’t operate on a horse that’s had steroid for four weeks anyway.

Oh and in his experience MRI is quite a poor diagnostic tool for connective tissue and tendon sheath issues btw- hence the invention of contrast radiography which has proven more reliable. He actually said he would really want to be convinced that the digital manica really is the problem it’s so unusual, so the contrast radiography may not be a bad idea to make sure we are on the right track (so ycbm a good suggestion actually- albeit a more whacky diagnostic tool!).

So this is somewhat shocking I guess my plan was never to be putting Bog’s original injury under any pressure other than walk, he was meant to be chilling out but we sort of need to know either way.

My head is absolutely spinning I don’t know what to think.


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## maya2008 (29 June 2020)

Lots of sympathy - my girl did the more usual manica a few years ago. Prognosis was full return to work after operation. It took six months before it no longer swelled in the field if she ran around, and I did not ride for that time. She’s been enjoying life under saddle since. 

She did op then box rest then out in a big field - she repeatedly jumped out of her pen!

I hope you get some answers soon.


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## Michen (29 June 2020)

maya2008 said:



			Lots of sympathy - my girl did the more usual manica a few years ago. Prognosis was full return to work after operation. It took six months before it no longer swelled in the field if she ran around, and I did not ride for that time. She’s been enjoying life under saddle since.

She did op then box rest then out in a big field - she repeatedly jumped out of her pen!

I hope you get some answers soon.
		
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Thank you this is good to hear. Surgeon did think it would be likely to be a similarly good prognosis.

I sort of don’t mind Bog going back in a box because I know he can cope mentally and he’s having the next four weeks in a field regardless, so it’s not continuous. If it makes him comfortable for the rest of his life it’s got to be worth it.


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## Jayzee (29 June 2020)

Really feel for you. From reading all the replies it sort of sounds as though you have made up your mind. 

I know that if it was me and the horse in question was such a special horse to me. If I did not have the op done then I would always be questioning whether I should have operated, especially considering the outcome sounds pretty positive (appreciate that it is a very uncommon injury)


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## muddy_grey (29 June 2020)

Sorry you are going through all this. After her ddft op my mare didn't go out in anything more than a pen (about 2 1/2 times stable) until she was cantering under saddle. I knew she would be an idiot and was happy on box rest so we decided it would be better. Might be worth considering if you go for the op


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## IngramsRoughDiamond (29 June 2020)

Michen said:



			So er... I’m an idiot. Just had an hours call with Andy at RCV (lovely lovely man btw!), and after 15 mins we realised we were talking different structures. Boggle has injured his digital manica not his manica flexoria although they are similar/do the same sort of thing but Boggles is below the fetlock.

Andy has NEVER seen or heard of one with this injury. He had to drag up a case study to find one. He said most vets wouldn’t even know the structure exists!!! That it would be a super rare thing to happen which does make the theory of it being an adhesion even more likely as otherwise it’s just so bizarre and frankly ridiculously bad luck.

He said in principal it should be as successful op wise as a manica flexoria, but obviously can’t give any success rates because he doesn’t know anyone whose even done one. But he did say try the conservative treatment first.. let the steroid work and do it’s thing. He also said he’d want to get the horse back under saddle and ramp up the work inc trot etc to make sure he was still saying sound and it was truly settled- to make sure if surgery was required it could be done sooner rather than later because if it ISN’T adhesion related you really want it tidied up ASAP rather than scar tissue forming. He also said you can’t operate on a horse that’s had steroid for four weeks anyway.

Oh and in his experience MRI is quite a poor diagnostic tool for connective tissue and tendon sheath issues btw- hence the invention of contrast radiography which has proven more reliable. He actually said he would really want to be convinced that the digital manica really is the problem it’s so unusual, so the contrast radiography may not be a bad idea to make sure we are on the right track (so ycbm a good suggestion actually- albeit a more whacky diagnostic tool!).

So this is somewhat shocking I guess my plan was never to be putting Bog’s original injury under any pressure other than walk, he was meant to be chilling out but we sort of need to know either way.

My head is absolutely spinning I don’t know what to think.
		
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Was it Andy Fiske Jackson you spoke to? He is bloody brilliant, he operated on my mare last year and was so amazing, he put up with all my insestant questions, my worrying and all my questions when I bought her back into work. He is the nicest vet I have ever dealt with and you would never know anything had ever happened to my mare, she recovered 💯 with no scaring at all.


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## Michen (30 June 2020)

IngramsRoughDiamond said:



			Was it Andy Fiske Jackson you spoke to? He is bloody brilliant, he operated on my mare last year and was so amazing, he put up with all my insestant questions, my worrying and all my questions when I bought her back into work. He is the nicest vet I have ever dealt with and you would never know anything had ever happened to my mare, she recovered 💯 with no scaring at all.
		
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Yes- lovely guy. He’s emailed me a few times since I think he finds it quite an interesting case!!


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## Errin Paddywack (30 June 2020)

Always handy to have a vet who is really interested in your case. Much more likely to go the extra mile to get it sorted.  He sounds an excellent vet.


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## Michen (30 June 2020)

Errin Paddywack said:



			Always handy to have a vet who is really interested in your case. Much more likely to go the extra mile to get it sorted.  He sounds an excellent vet.
		
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Yes exactly. My own vet is equally brilliant. I rang him in absolute despair yesterday because of Boggle twitting around- sent him a trot up video and the lameness hasn't got worse so he says carry on turning him out if I can try and mitigate him being an idiot.

So I'll be going up to the yard about 8/9pm, doping him and then turning out. Then bringing him in by 6am before anyone else on the yard has been up. Yay Boggle, thanks for being such a turd. The alternative is he goes back on box rest but I really want him to have this time out for the next month especially if there's more box rest on the horizon for him.


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## J&S (30 June 2020)

Very best wishes for this next phase! x


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## splashgirl45 (30 June 2020)

fingers crossed he behaves....


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## Michen (2 July 2020)

Oh my goodness Bear tonight! He’s been schooled twice for 20 mins each time by Boggles jockey. I got on him tonight for a hack and he was a different horse, I couldn’t get any sort of softness or bend from him whatever I tried before today. He was soft, flexible, taking the bit forward and down for a stretch when I asked. Still a bit mouthy but not in a resistant way. Finished with some white foam! His trot was incredible I could quite literally feel him suddenly powering from behind.. He was an absolute joy to ride. We came off a stoney track and he suddenly went super lame, my heart sank but got off to find a huge stone wedged in shoe and frog. He stood like an angel for me to climb back on (haven’t got on him from ground before) I’m gobsmacked at the difference from two schooling sessions and it makes me want to school him myself now- I’m going to- tomorrow!!!

He’s cheered me up hugely. Also suddenly gone more bum high- think he’s going to end up pretty big. Pics, and Boggle at the end of course because he is the most beautiful of them all 


Thoroughly cheered up and even more determined to keep hold of Bear for the foreseeable. Keep your fingers crossed for a deal at work to come in this month and it’ll cover Boggles op if he has it/needs it. 

Ps I know he’s porky but not too bad, right? Vet saw him a couple of weeks ago.. he’s been muzzled since.


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## chaps89 (2 July 2020)

Aww. I'm glad he's behaving himself and going well. His front end has a bit of catching up to do doesn't it!


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## Michen (2 July 2020)

chaps89 said:



			Aww. I'm glad he's behaving himself and going well. His front end has a bit of catching up to do doesn't it!
		
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Really does but he just feels so powerful already!!


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## Michen (7 July 2020)

Bear really has missed his calling working cows in Montana!


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## Michen (9 July 2020)

Am just at a loss here guys  Doping Bog and turning him out late eve, coming in early. He’s generally chilled but has the odd buck and canter around his small paddock because, well that’s just him. His leg (actually, both legs) is still very slightly swollen and today (having had the first little burst of energy around his field I’ve seen in a week), the bad leg has heat in it. I emailed my vet and this is his response.

I have no idea WTF to do tbh. I can’t turn him away with active inflammation like this and my vet was as keen for him to be out as I was so I know he won’t have said bring him back in unless he thought it was really necessary. He is the most playful/active horse ever it could do so much damage pissing about in a herd. I am assuming his digital manica will be the same on scan in two weeks and then I need to decide whether to op, which at the moment feels like my only choice. But even then, like the specialist says NO one has really seen or operated on the digital manica only the manica, in theory it should be the same principal but it’s basically the unknown in terms of that exact structure.

I feel like I’m failing this horse on every bloody level at the moment. I’m damned if I do and if I don’t. Turn him away and if it doesn’t heal on its own it makes operating even harder with less chance of success and I could have a horse that’s constantly lame even in the field- I’m absolutely terrified that the way this is going he’s not even going to be field sound. Operate and no one can really know whether it’ll help.

I’m gutted tbh I just wanted him to have the next few weeks in a field before a decision had to be made but now he can’t even have that.


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## DabDab (9 July 2020)

Hugs M, it's rubbish x

I have no real advice, and don't know what I would do if in the same situation...probably go for the op sooner rather than later before the summer dwindles....it's such a tricky situation with him seemingly incapable of paddock rest with aggravating whatever it is that's going on


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## splashgirl45 (9 July 2020)

so sorry things are not going well for boggle,  hugs xx


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## OldNag (9 July 2020)

That's just  rubbish. I hope he starts to improve soon x


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## shortstuff99 (9 July 2020)

There was a post on the forum earlier which seemed to be about the same injury but a year down the line. Might be worth messaging the OP? Will see if I can find it


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## shortstuff99 (9 July 2020)

https://forums.horseandhound.co.uk/threads/update.792062/#post-14343289


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## CanteringCarrot (10 July 2020)

I agree with just doing the op as soon as possible. At least, IMO, if you do the op you know that you tried the best option. It could go well, and if/when you do the op, I really wish the best for you and Bog. 

I know the heat is concerning in the one leg, but if they're both a bit swollen, could it be the weather and lack of activity? I've noticed if my guy does more standing around than usual and it's particularly hot and humid (Idk your current weather) he stocks up a bit.


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## Ownedby4horses (10 July 2020)

Oh OP this is awful, I have nothing useful to add but just wanted to say I really hope he is doing better soon.  You’re not failing him, you are such a diligent and caring owner, sorry it’s such a testing time, I will hope for brighter days for you soon.


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## Tiddlypom (10 July 2020)

This is just bum news, Michen. You’re trying so hard with Boggle.

I’m going through it with my homebred - initially thought to be minor issues, but one thing after another keeps showing up. I’m giving her another few months with more joint injections, good farriery and chiro vet interventions, but I know that I may well have to let her go in the end.

Its bloody pants. I hope that you can fix Boggle, and that he stays fixed.


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## Michen (10 July 2020)

CanteringCarrot said:



			I agree with just doing the op as soon as possible. At least, IMO, if you do the op you know that you tried the best option. It could go well, and if/when you do the op, I really wish the best for you and Bog.

I know the heat is concerning in the one leg, but if they're both a bit swollen, could it be the weather and lack of activity? I've noticed if my guy does more standing around than usual and it's particularly hot and humid (Idk your current weather) he stocks up a bit.
		
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So he can’t have an op for a minimum of two more weeks anyway as he had a steroid injection. The legs seem sort of windgally?

I came down this am to find them both bloody in together! He’s trying to kill me with stress!!!Boggle is so respectful of fencing but it looks like he must have jumped. They are both immensely proud of themselves. I guess that answers whether they could ever be in a field together, they are definitely firm friends this morning.

Ignore Bear twisted muzzle I’m just relieved Boggle didn’t remove it that’s one silver lining.

Part of me just wants to ignore vet advice, shove him in field with Bear and look again in a month.


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## Roxylola (10 July 2020)

Liking because they're happy together which is rather lovely. 
I'd try 48 hours box rest, if it gets better or worse then you know which is the better option til your 2 weeks is up


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## hobo (10 July 2020)

Same as Rox I have liked because the photo's are just beautiful. I will have to go back and check what has been happening since I last looked. They look like twins in the first photo.


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## palo1 (10 July 2020)

Bummer  No advice at all but they are enormously cute together and hopefully the two being together could possibly help Boggle.  I think Roxylola's advice is good too.  48 hours to assess then a plan for the next couple of weeks.  Horribly stressful situation but sometimes you have to ride these things out and just take things one step at a time.


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## Wheels (10 July 2020)

Aww look at them together! So cute


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## Michen (10 July 2020)

palo1 said:



			Bummer  No advice at all but they are enormously cute together and hopefully the two being together could possibly help Boggle.  I think Roxylola's advice is good too.  48 hours to assess then a plan for the next couple of weeks.  Horribly stressful situation but sometimes you have to ride these things out and just take things one step at a time.
		
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It makes me twitch to go against my vet though. And also nervous as he's not supposed to be in a big field even with the original injury for another month, he could get up some serious speed. That said jumping out and skidding around a small paddock isn't exactly helpful either is it!


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## ycbm (10 July 2020)

He's going to end up famous in a veterinary textbook at this rate!  

Can the contrast xray be done sooner, Michen?  That might give you a better idea what's going on.  The op seems inevitable, if the specialist wants to try it,   you're just not going to forgive yourself in future if you don't.

Given that he's not doing well on pen rest and is back in a box,  cracking on with the diagnostics that will tell you whether the specialist will or won't operate seems like the best idea, if it's possible. 

Then you can get the decision made and plan for the rehab.  

.


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## palo1 (10 July 2020)

I had a horse like this once before - it can be very difficult to cope when everything they do is the opposite of what is required.   I would certainly bring in for a couple of days to see where you are then.  It is almost impossible to plan much further ahead I think though that is very frustrating.  It's a good thing you love Boggle!!


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## HashRouge (10 July 2020)

They are so cute together!

I'm really sorry it's not going better with Boggle. I would definitely bring him in though. I know you feel guilty about it, but at least he has had some time out after his initial box rest and has had the chance to enjoy himself and be a horse. He sounds like he is fairly chilled in the stable and two weeks will fly by. I know it's rough, but fingers crossed it will be the best option.


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## Michen (10 July 2020)

ycbm said:



			He's going to end up famous in a veterinary textbook at this rate! 

Can the contrast xray be done sooner, Michen?  That might give you a better idea what's going on.  The op seems inevitable, if the specialist wants to try it,   you're just not going to forgive yourself in future if you don't.

Given that he's not doing well on pen rest and is back in a box,  cracking on with the diagnostics that will tell you whether the specialist will or won't operate seems like the best idea, if it's possible.

Then you can get the decision made and plan for the rehab. 

.
		
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He needs to go up to RCV for that I think, so I may as well tie it all in with a provisionally booked op... once he’s been scanned in 2 weeks (which I do feel is potentially pointless but my vet seems keen to scan and re assess).


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## Ambers Echo (10 July 2020)

So sorry, Michen. I also liked because the pictures are gorgeous. But if there was a broken heart button I'd have clicked that instead.


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## Slightlyconfused (10 July 2020)

Michen said:



			Yes exactly. My own vet is equally brilliant. I rang him in absolute despair yesterday because of Boggle twitting around- sent him a trot up video and the lameness hasn't got worse so he says carry on turning him out if I can try and mitigate him being an idiot.

So I'll be going up to the yard about 8/9pm, doping him and then turning out. Then bringing him in by 6am before anyone else on the yard has been up. Yay Boggle, thanks for being such a turd. The alternative is he goes back on box rest but I really want him to have this time out for the next month especially if there's more box rest on the horizon for him.
		
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I had to dope the spotty one when he was on pen rest after his keratoma op...... Actually I had to dope him for six weeks twice a day in his stable from the day after we got him home as he thought it was a good idea to twirl on his just operated hoof 🙄

I think if you don't do the op, you will regret trying. We were like that with spotty, vet gave a 80% chance of back to work and that's with a quarter ish of his pedal bone missing from his rh.

I'm still paying off the op three years later, it was the diagnosis and then bandage changes that cost the most, plus I broke my wrist the day we got him home and he needed to be sedated for the first three months so we could do his hoof.


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## splashgirl45 (10 July 2020)

i am another who liked the post for the pics, not for the bad news.  if you dont do the op you will worry that you havent done enough for him, but i understand your thoughts re the GA... good luck


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## chaps89 (10 July 2020)

Asieds from the muzzle and front shoes, you'd struggle to tell them apart in  that first photo. They look very content with one another.

It's rubbish when they won't read the vet notes. As he is so quiet in the box I'd be inclined to maybe keep him in until the op and have a really frank honest conversation with the vet in the meantime about his turnout post op. 
I can't pen rest mine as she jumps (including post and rail as I discovered today) so she has to box rest for longer whilst I hand graze and do more walking for longer than I would and I just have to bite the bullet and turn her out and shut my eyes. 
If it was something really serious I'd probably look to send away to a proper rehab yard who had stallion fencing on small pens or heras fencing etc who could manage the return to turnout for me. (Well, I wouldn't as I wouldn't put either of us through anything so serious, but theoretically speaking)


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## Michen (11 July 2020)

Guys thank you as always for the sensible words and advice. It really helps!! Legs are normal, no swelling today (either of them) and no heat in bad one. So defo right decision to keep him in.

He had a nice time playing tug of war with Pepper this am. And Bear did his longest hack to date, up to Kingsclere on the water ship down. He was epic, so good with motorbikes, tractors etc. A few lovely canters. He is going to sleep well this afternoon!


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## CanteringCarrot (11 July 2020)

Lovely and adorable post!


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## tda (11 July 2020)

Michen said:



			It makes me twitch to go against my vet though. And also nervous as he's not supposed to be in a big field even with the original injury for another month, he could get up some serious speed. That said jumping out and skidding around a small paddock isn't exactly helpful either is it!
		
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Understand how you feel but if hes happy and has his buddy he is less likely to be charging about?


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## Michen (11 July 2020)

tda said:



			Understand how you feel but if hes happy and has his buddy he is less likely to be charging about?
		
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Hmmm not convinced. Both horses immensely playful...


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## chaps89 (11 July 2020)

I am immensely jealous of your hacking!
Good to hear there's some improvement in Bogs leg.


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## palo1 (11 July 2020)

Positive update  It sounds as if Boggle really needs to be in for his own safety at least until you are sure that his leg is ok/you have the op situation decided upon.  Blooming horses!!


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## SatansLittleHelper (12 July 2020)

Nothing of any use to add but I just love Boggle, he looks to have mountains of personality ❤❤❤❤


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## scats (12 July 2020)

Your hacking looks amazing.  Very jealous!


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## Pinkvboots (12 July 2020)

I think keeping him in is a good choice it's only a few weeks, the RVC are very good I am only up the road from them have been there many times.


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## Michen (13 July 2020)

Bloody leg hot again. Ridiculous. 

Emailed my vet to see if we can do scan a little earlier, can’t see what difference a week would make and feel some decisions need to be made either way really, whether that’s turn away, op or back in box long term for another rehab. 


Seems bizarre for it to be cold then hot with him having done nothing to aggravate it.


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## chaps89 (13 July 2020)

Mine had days where her leg would be hot and others where it would be fine, seemingly no rhyme or reason. Vet just said it happens sometimes with soft tissue injuries. On those days I cold hosed a little longer. Not to say it's not frustrating or worrisome though!
Will the scan give much benefit?


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## The Fuzzy Furry (13 July 2020)

Michen said:



			Bloody leg hot again. Ridiculous.

Emailed my vet to see if we can do scan a little earlier, can’t see what difference a week would make and feel some decisions need to be made either way really, whether that’s turn away, op or back in box long term for another rehab.


Seems bizarre for it to be cold then hot with him having done nothing to aggravate it.
		
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This was a regular occurrence for L Fuzzy,  whether in, out in little pen, wherever! I feel for you x


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## frostie652 (13 July 2020)

Deleted- posted in wrong thread


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## Michen (13 July 2020)

That’s interesting to hear guys thanks. I didn’t realise it was common for it to go hot and cold like that. He’s chilled in his stable and on his walks (for now) so I was surprised

I’m not sure of the benefit of a scan but even if it is a waste of £250 I think it’s got to be worth doing just in case there’s a noticeable improvement.. my vet seems To think it’s worth doing and he knows the insurance money is out etc and wouldn’t advise unnecessary expense if he didn’t think it was worth doing.

I think my vet has actually gone on holiday so may not be feasible to scan sooner. I just want to DO something, hate this bloody limbo.


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## Michen (17 July 2020)

I am so impressed with Bear. First arena hire and so much to look at. He found a cat walking along arena fence pretty
Unreasonable but other than that, no spooking or napping to my friends horse who met us there. A little snippet of trot he’s tired here at the end but still sweet, probably been in the school less than ten times and looks like he wouldn’t disgrace himself at an intro.

Loaded, travelled, stood, no issue.


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## Pinkvboots (18 July 2020)

He looks really good thats a very good trot! peacocks is what we often have on the arena fence, the peacocks had babies this year as well so there will be even more of them to look out for, my horses are really not keen on them especially when they shake there huge tail feathers in the air


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## Michen (21 July 2020)

Urgh guys what do I do. I really wanted Bog to have surgery with Andy at RCVS, he has a further diagnostic method and is very well regarded for these things. However he wouldn't be able to do him until 10th September at the earliest... I don't think it's fair to extend Boggle's box rest for a further two months waiting for this.

I'm jumping the gun as he has a scan today but very much prepared this is what I'll likely need to do. 

Find a surgeon who can do him sooner?


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## Annagain (21 July 2020)

If he's having surgery anyway would there be any harm in turning him out? Presumably any potential extra damage he does between now and then could be fixed in surgery?


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## The Fuzzy Furry (21 July 2020)

Michen said:



			Urgh guys what do I do. I really wanted Bog to have surgery with Andy at RCVS, he has a further diagnostic method and is very well regarded for these things. However he wouldn't be able to do him until 10th September at the earliest... I don't think it's fair to extend Boggle's box rest for a further two months waiting for this.

I'm jumping the gun as he has a scan today but very much prepared this is what I'll likely need to do.

Find a surgeon who can do him sooner? 

Click to expand...

Pete Gallon at Liphook?


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## Michen (21 July 2020)

annagain said:



			If he's having surgery anyway would there be any harm in turning him out? Presumably any potential extra damage he does between now and then could be fixed in surgery?
		
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I'm not sure.. he technically should still be on small paddock turnout for the original injury but being such a twat jumping fences etc is putting me off that...!

His leg is finally cool and not swollen, am reluctant to reverse that...


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## Michen (21 July 2020)

The Fuzzy Furry said:



			Pete Gallon at Liphook?
		
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Haven't heard of Pete.. have you used him before? For what procedure?


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## Annagain (21 July 2020)

Is today's scan for the original injury, the new one or both? If the scan is good for the original injury (I think the last one was?) I'd be tempted to turn him out.


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## Dyllymoo (21 July 2020)

Could Andy not recommend someone?  Sometimes that's just as good?  I hope the scan isn't too bad today.


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## Michen (21 July 2020)

annagain said:



			Is today's scan for the original injury, the new one or both? If the scan is good for the original injury (I think the last one was?) I'd be tempted to turn him out.
		
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Both... but maybe we will find a third thing.. who knows- my expectations are very low


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## Michen (21 July 2020)

Dyllymoo said:



			Could Andy not recommend someone?  Sometimes that's just as good?  I hope the scan isn't too bad today.
		
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Yes I've dropped him an email. I'm sort of hoping he may try and get me in as I know he found Boggle's case... interesting.


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## ITPersonnage (21 July 2020)

I understand your impatience (I really do) but AFAIK Bog hasn't got a calendar on his wall.  Whilst he's safe and behaving himself he's not box-walking or anything is he? Just take advantage of the fact he's not a complete idiot on box rest and chill....


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## The Fuzzy Furry (21 July 2020)

Michen said:



			Haven't heard of Pete.. have you used him before? For what procedure?
		
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He is clinical director there. No, haven't used him myself but 'was' going to when the late L Fuzzy detached the manica and mullered the surrounding ligaments etc. I ended up taking the field rest option 1st tho. Sorry not to be of any more help, hope you get a solution soon x


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## Dyllymoo (21 July 2020)

Michen said:



			Yes I've dropped him an email. I'm sort of hoping he may try and get me in as I know he found Boggle's case... interesting.
		
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That's a positive, he may well be able to fit him in and use him as a case study or something.  Fingers crossed for you


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## Roxylola (21 July 2020)

It's really only 6 weeks at this point so a bit less than 2 months. I'd hang on for the expert at this point


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## CanteringCarrot (21 July 2020)

Best of luck with the scan. I'd also be tempted to set an earlier date. I'd ask for a recommendation. If you don't feel comfortable with anyone else, then wait.

If you do wait, can you construct some sort of "Boggle proof paddock" maybe put the fence higher/a strand of electric up higher? Or is there no such thing as a "Boggle proof paddock" 😂


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## Michen (21 July 2020)

Roxylola said:



			It's really only 6 weeks at this point so a bit less than 2 months. I'd hang on for the expert at this point
		
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I count it as 7 and a bit...

I dunno, I guess it would depend on whether he can be turned out in that time or not and I suspect I know what the answer is really.


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## Michen (21 July 2020)

CanteringCarrot said:



			Best of luck with the scan. I'd also be tempted to set an earlier date. I'd ask for a recommendation. If you don't feel comfortable with anyone else, then wait.

If you do wait, can you construct some sort of "Boggle proof paddock" maybe put the fence higher/a strand of electric up higher? Or is there no such thing as a "Boggle proof paddock" 😂
		
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Well I thought it was Boggle proof... as he's not a field jumper by nature. It was 5 foot, double fencing... he was chilled when I left at about 8pm that night.

This is Boggle's way of making up his own entertainment now I suppose!


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## Michen (21 July 2020)

ITPersonnage said:



			I understand your impatience (I really do) but AFAIK Bog hasn't got a calendar on his wall.  Whilst he's safe and behaving himself he's not box-walking or anything is he? Just take advantage of the fact he's not a complete idiot on box rest and chill....
		
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No he's chilled on box rest but he does get progressively more agitated as the days go by to hand walk. It was sort of OK last time because the walking was being ramped up so much, by the end he was doing well over an hour a day. I don't really see leaving him in a box for a further 7/8 weeks to then re start another long stint as an option tbh, it also makes rehab so much harder going into november with lack of daylight etc and work.


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## ycbm (21 July 2020)

I would find another surgeon.  The wait can't be a good idea. 
.


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## southerncomfort (21 July 2020)

Michen said:



			No he's chilled on box rest but he does get progressively more agitated as the days go by to hand walk. It was sort of OK last time because the walking was being ramped up so much, by the end he was doing well over an hour a day. I don't really see leaving him in a box for a further 7/8 weeks to then re start another long stint as an option tbh, it also makes rehab so much harder going into november with lack of daylight etc and work.
		
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I'm with you on this and I'd be looking to try and get the surgery done sooner to be honest.

Although I'm still hoping for a happy scan! 🙂


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## rara007 (21 July 2020)

Ask Andy if he has any recommendations? The ‘elite’ ortho vets are a pretty small bunch that know each other pretty well. Explain the wait is putting you off, see what he suggests.


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## Michen (21 July 2020)

Thanks all. Will update after the scan. If it's good I almost wonder if that will be worse as we are then going to likely have the ups and downs of whether the injury will truly recover or not. I'm really hoping for a clear cut answer if I'm honest.

This is making me physically sick with worry and panic today. I thought I was made of stronger stuff!!!!


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## Annagain (21 July 2020)

Michen said:



			Thanks all. Will update after the scan. If it's good I almost wonder if that will be worse as we are then going to likely have the ups and downs of whether the injury will truly recover or not. I'm really hoping for a clear cut answer if I'm honest.

This is making me physically sick with worry and panic today. I thought I was made of stronger stuff!!!!
		
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Horses have a way of inducing that. You're not alone. I rarely cry about anything - never if it's a problem OH or I have and hardly ever about the dog but the second there's something wrong with the horses I'm a blubbering wreck. One of Archie's melanomas burst a while back. It looked so sore and as it was in his tail and he was swishing it to get rid of the flies, he was flinging blood all over his beautiful white coat. He looked like he'd been repeatedly slashed with a knife. I cried for 2 hours solid. The girls at the yard just left me there in the end, nobody could do anything to get me to stop!


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## Michen (21 July 2020)

Omg. What a rollercoaster. We trotted up and flexed- 3/10 lame after flex ion on BOTH hinds. Scanned both legs. Vet was so happy with original bad leg, original injury looked still really good (despite field hopping) and no sign of the second “thing”. Really couldn’t find it. He feels confident it was an adhesion or even a bit of odeama, which fits with what the surgeon said- ultra sound is so difficult to exactly diagnose something like that as it essentially just shows a “thing”. 

And this fits. I said to both vet and my friend weeks ago that Boggle was getting increasingly annoyed at having his back legs picked up. And it ties in with him going back in the box or even in the field and the walk work significant dropping off.  

So we are now thinking whatever the new thing was has settled and quickly, and what we are faced with now is potentially some box rest/lack of work related hock spavin. It must be very minor given it didn’t show whatsoever in the work up when he was in full work. So we are going to nerve block and pray both legs block to the hocks rather than lower down and take it from there. 

It’s obviously not ideal to have spavin in an 8 year old but equally this was not on show at all in full work, and when he was trotted up mid May whilst in decent walk work was also not apparent. So in the last 6 weeks of small pen field rest then box rest it does make sense. 


I hope I’m not kidding myself but either way vet feels we are far away from anything surgical (as long as surgeon agrees) and I feel a black cloud has been lifted. Hopefully by end of day Friday we will have a more definite idea.


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## J&S (21 July 2020)

Whole new world opens up now!  Fingers and toes crossed for great outcome at the end of the week.


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## Michen (21 July 2020)

J&S said:



			Whole new world opens up now!  Fingers and toes crossed for great outcome at the end of the week.
		
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I really hope so. Maybe I’m being silly to be happy about the prospect of him having some hock spavin, but I honestly think that’s the best outcome I could hope for at the minute. 

Anything other than surgery and more box rest.


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## southerncomfort (21 July 2020)

Really pleased that surgery isn't needed and you are slowly edging closer to finding out whats been going on. 🙂

Like you say though, what a roller coaster!


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## ycbm (21 July 2020)

Flipping heck!

You know what I said about him ending up famous in a medical text book? 
.


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## Michen (21 July 2020)

ycbm said:



			Flipping heck!

You know what I said about him ending up famous in a medical text book? 
.
		
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Yeah, well, good thing he doesn’t need to do anything ever other than be a happy chap!  

This horse could so easily have ended up in a super competitive home because of his big heart. And I think he’d be even more broken than he seems at the moment.


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## BBP (21 July 2020)

I think he and bbp could have a book written on their medical complications. I haven’t commented much on here but I know just what a roller coaster it is when you love a complicated horse this much. I really hope you get a good outcome with him.


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## Dyllymoo (22 July 2020)

Oh wow....    fingers crossed for Friday for sure (although not wishing him ill... but kind of wishing for the better outcome that you want)


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## Ambers Echo (22 July 2020)

What a relief!! Hoping for the results you want on Friday.


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## Red-1 (22 July 2020)

Thank goodness there is prospect for not needing surgery.

I had a pony with a hock spavin, once it had settled, it didn't affect him much. He was very sound and active. I quit school work, as circles seemed to make it much worse, but he would still run and jump, and loved life.

(ETA - just the odd log out hacking, I didn't compete him).


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## Wheels (22 July 2020)

Im very glad it now looks like surgery is not required and I am wishing you good luck for friday!


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## Pinkvboots (22 July 2020)

Great news fingers crossed for Friday x


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## Jeni the dragon (22 July 2020)

Great news!


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## Errin Paddywack (22 July 2020)

My pony had a spavin when younger than 8.  Once fused it didn't bother him although I think he would have struggled to do collected work.  Stayed sound for the rest of his life, lost him at 23 to gut problems.


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## Michen (22 July 2020)

Red-1 said:



			Thank goodness there is prospect for not needing surgery.

I had a pony with a hock spavin, once it had settled, it didn't affect him much. He was very sound and active. I quit school work, as circles seemed to make it much worse, but he would still run and jump, and loved life.

(ETA - just the odd log out hacking, I didn't compete him).
		
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Great to hear thanks!

I don’t mind what Bog does, would obviously love to low level event one day again but if he can just hack that’s cool too!


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## Michen (22 July 2020)

Errin Paddywack said:



			My pony had a spavin when younger than 8.  Once fused it didn't bother him although I think he would have struggled to do collected work.  Stayed sound for the rest of his life, lost him at 23 to gut problems.
		
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Great to hear. Hopefully it is hocks, vet was unconcerned given he hasn’t showed any lameness with them until he was laid off for 6 weeks. I’m hopeful!


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## splashgirl45 (22 July 2020)

fingers crossed for friday


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## CanteringCarrot (22 July 2020)

Hoping the best for you and Boggle on Friday!


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## Michen (22 July 2020)

Thanks all. Boggle was unspeakable today. Let's just say he gathered monumental speed and is very pleased with himself... he has had both legs cold hosed!

I can only hope he didn't do anything more than what he did when he jumped in and spent the night with Bear, so as not to skew the results of nerve blocks on friday.

The damn horse is trying to kill me with stress. They do take it in turns though, Bear is always extra sweet when Bog is being a twat, and vice versa.


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## Pinkvboots (22 July 2020)

Michen said:



			Thanks all. Boggle was unspeakable today. Let's just say he gathered monumental speed and is very pleased with himself... he has had both legs cold hosed!

I can only hope he didn't do anything more than what he did when he jumped in and spent the night with Bear, so as not to skew the results of nerve blocks on friday.

The damn horse is trying to kill me with stress. They do take it in turns though, Bear is always extra sweet when Bog is being a twat, and vice versa.
		
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That sounds familiar and very much like my life at times and my 2 are 15 and 16 years old and they should know better.

My only advice is maybe a padded stable until Friday! And a few bottles of wine


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## Michen (22 July 2020)

Pinkvboots said:



			That sounds familiar and very much like my life at times and my 2 are 15 and 16 years old and they should know better.

My only advice is maybe a padded stable until Friday! And a few bottles of wine

Click to expand...

Honestly they are arseholes! Also both of them, in the last 48 hours have slipped off the entire head collar when tied up? Albiet both just went and ate grass but seriously.. that's never happened in 3 years of owning Boggle.. or at all with Bear.

Do they just discuss with each other what they are going to do next!!


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## Michen (23 July 2020)

Well baby Bear had his first Lesson. Just 20 mins at the end of my friends with a very fancy dressage instructor. “Do you think he’s in front of you leg and understands it” .. “yes I think so”. “Ok take your leg away then”. Bear stops dead. 

It was quite eye opening, I have been nagging without realising it. So she had me letting him make the “mistake” of dropping off and then squeeze, if no reaction then strong use of leg. My god he got indignant! Kicking out, threw some bucks. 

She said he’s bloody clever and very much a “why” horse but once he’s on side will be super. He doesn’t do anything remotely nasty or with any malice, but he’s definitely cheeky and definitely needs a little more mental challenging than he’s been getting 

Looking smart. Great to have a lesson albeit short.  Vet for Boggle tomorrow.


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## Wheels (24 July 2020)

Fingers crossed for you and boggles today


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## Ambers Echo (24 July 2020)

Thinking of you today. Hope it goes well x


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## Fraggle2 (24 July 2020)

Hope today goes well


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## Michen (24 July 2020)

Thanks so so much all. It’s his hocks- positive block. So so minor on x ray. Vet says bringing him into some form of work should be enough to make him sound on them again, not in a rush to treat atm. 

I’m so glad the soft tissue seems okay, especially as he’s really done lots of antics on it (full pelt gallop on weds) and still blocked to the hocks and not that area. 

Bloody hell Bog, I’m an emotional mess!


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## southerncomfort (24 July 2020)

That really is good news.  🙂 

Think you deserve a big glass (or bottle!) of something nicely alcoholic after all that.


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## Michen (24 July 2020)

southerncomfort said:



			That really is good news.  🙂 

Think you deserve a big glass (or bottle!) of something nicely alcoholic after all that.
		
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Thanks! Oh I’m on it!

Vet says keep him active, a good weight and warm. He doesn’t expect the hocks to cause an issue given they have only become apparent since his walking tapered off and he’s spent the last 6 weeks doing very little. Obviously we will monitor and hope to see him 100% sound in the next month or two with some steady hacking walk work. 

I cannot WAIT to get back on him. Obviously we will still be mostly walking until next spring, with respect for the original injury, but I should be able to keep him active enough to  also keep him sound.


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## Emilieu (24 July 2020)

I recently read the start of your thread and really enjoyed it, but didn’t want to comment as it was all going wrong by the time I got to the end. So pleased to hear you finally have some good news for your lovely boy, and I’m looking forward to more happy updates!


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## splashgirl45 (24 July 2020)

good news, you must be exhausted by the bog saga.  a large drink and a bar of chocolate should help


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## scats (24 July 2020)

Saw your update on Fb Michen and I am made up for you.


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## Ambers Echo (24 July 2020)

What great news. Xx


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## SEL (24 July 2020)

Whoop whoop! Now for wine I think!!!


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## Jeni the dragon (24 July 2020)

That's really good news! So pleased!


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## palo1 (24 July 2020)

Great news!!  Blooming well done for sticking these last very difficult weeks  Delighted (if that is the right word) for you


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## SatansLittleHelper (24 July 2020)

Absolutely thrilled for you ❤


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## Michen (24 July 2020)

Thanks everyone. I am really pleased. 

But feeling a little sad, my lovely lorry (ESW you’ll know how I feel right now) I think has sold within 24 hours to a really nice local girl with a mutual friend. Such fun times in that box. Feels like the end of an era, many happy times with Boggle, Bear and of course Basil in it. 

But a new chapter, and lorries shouldn’t sit mostly unused all winter. Meanwhile baby Bear will have to lump it in a trailer


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## doodle (24 July 2020)

I felt sad when I sold Minto and Solis trailer. I had had it over 10 years and like you say lots of adventures in it.  Silly as it is just a box! I was so happy when new owner messaged me with pictures of it and her horse out on an adventure. Sadly it was getting old and Robin a bit bigger so money from my dad (who died shortly after) bought a lovely new 511 and I’m also attached to that!!


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## Michen (24 July 2020)

Kamikaze said:



			I felt sad when I sold Minto and Solis trailer. I had had it over 10 years and like you say lots of adventures in it.  Silly as it is just a box! I was so happy when new owner messaged me with pictures of it and her horse out on an adventure. Sadly it was getting old and Robin a bit bigger so money from my dad (who died shortly after) bought a lovely new 511 and I’m also attached to that!!
		
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Ridiculous isn’t it. I love that lorry.. and keep second guessing myself if it’s the right thing to do. But I’m spending so much money on horses and I’d like to spend it on other hobbies too, so something “should” give. With one horse out for a year or so and a 4ye old who won’t be doing a huge amount it makes no sense for lorry to sit there all winter!!

She has served me well . New chapter


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## Michen (24 July 2020)

palo1 said:



			Great news!!  Blooming well done for sticking these last very difficult weeks  Delighted (if that is the right word) for you 

Click to expand...

I am ten pounds heavier. No joke. So much ice cream!!! A true confirm eater.


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## Peregrine Falcon (24 July 2020)

Yay. Glad you have an answer to the months of worry. Let's hope they both behave themselves now!!


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## Bradsmum (25 July 2020)

Phew, just caught up and what a journey. Soooo pleased for you and Boggle.  Hope things start to level out and the two boys behave!


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## Keira 8888 (25 July 2020)

Big hugs x


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## Keira 8888 (25 July 2020)

🙁


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## Hannahgb (25 July 2020)

So pleased for you!


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## Michen (25 July 2020)

Really didn’t think I’d have this view again until next year. Best view ever, 20 mins of a (slightly doped but very cheerful!) Boggle.


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## Wheels (25 July 2020)

That's brilliant michen, I hope things continue to improve


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## ElleSkywalker (25 July 2020)

Michen said:



			Thanks everyone. I am really pleased. 

But feeling a little sad, my lovely lorry (ESW you’ll know how I feel right now) I think has sold within 24 hours to a really nice local girl with a mutual friend. Such fun times in that box. Feels like the end of an era, many happy times with Boggle, Bear and of course Basil in it. 

But a new chapter, and lorries shouldn’t sit mostly unused all winter. Meanwhile baby Bear will have to lump it in a trailer 

Click to expand...

I saw your ads for it and got quite emotional looking at the pictures as it was always really my beloved gingerfaces lorry dispite all of mine having been in it an one time or another. Sad as I am to see you sell her she's a game old girl who  needs to be kept scampering about the countryside so if dear little Bear and the awesome Bog won't be going anywhere much for a bit a trailer is probably wisest as they have less personality (haha offending all trailer owners there, sorry!) and don't mind being left for weeks on end


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## Michen (25 July 2020)

ElleSkywalker said:



			I saw your ads for it and got quite emotional looking at the pictures as it was always really my beloved gingerfaces lorry dispite all of mine having been in it an one time or another. Sad as I am to see you sell her she's a game old girl who  needs to be kept scampering about the countryside so if dear little Bear and the awesome Bog won't be going anywhere much for a bit a trailer is probably wisest as they have less personality (haha offending all trailer owners there, sorry!) and don't mind being left for weeks on end 

Click to expand...


Hehe brilliant message, just read that out to my friend and we were both laughing! Very well put. The girl who I think is buying it asked our mutual friend about the lorry and she said “I don’t know much but I do know she loves Sybil to bits” 😂😂.


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## ElleSkywalker (25 July 2020)

Michen said:



			Hehe brilliant message, just read that out to my friend and we were both laughing! Very well put. The girl who I think is buying it asked our mutual friend about the lorry and she said “I don’t know much but I do know she loves Sybil to bits” 😂😂.
		
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Am happy for new owner to contact me if she wants re speedo or anything else  since I had her in 2012 the old girl has wanted for nothing 😂 Spoilt lorry 😂


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## Michen (25 July 2020)

ElleSkywalker said:



			Am happy for new owner to contact me if she wants re speedo or anything else  since I had her in 2012 the old girl has wanted for nothing 😂 Spoilt lorry 😂
		
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Thanks!! Between us we’ve had her nearly a decade!


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## J&S (25 July 2020)

I can see a new tea towel/cushion cover......... Lorry Love x


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## CanteringCarrot (25 July 2020)

So happy for you! It just feels like "home" to sit on your own horse. I know Bear is yours too, but you know what I mean 😉

As for the lorry, it's a practical decision. A lot of times practical decisions are liked by the head and not the heart! Trailers can tolerate sitting better than a lorry.


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## Bradsmum (26 July 2020)

Excellent update - Boggle looks like he's enjoying the view also.


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## Pinkvboots (26 July 2020)

Great update glad to see your back on board!


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## Michen (28 July 2020)

Boggle despite 2ml of sedalin. I really wasn’t sure about doping to ride but it’s proving to be an absolute life saver at the moment, hoping With turnout (bear had back shoes off today) it won’t be necessary. The dope doesn’t seem to make him any less jolly or yeee haaa but I don’t have to fear for my life quite as much when a massive tractor comes down the road on the other side of the hedge. Sound up for Boggle snorting his way around his 30 min hack 😂

Riding him again is making me so so happy. And he is so happy too!! He just loves working and he seems genuinely pleased to finally be the “chosen one”. I have to say I really prefer him to Bear just the length of his neck and the general shape of him. It’s always like riding a nifty little TB being on Boggle. Or maybe I’m being biased.. 

Am feeling nervous to turn them out together tonight!!! Might just shut my eyes and walk away..


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## Roxylola (28 July 2020)

He certainly looks anything but dopey bless him


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## Michen (28 July 2020)

Roxylola said:



			He certainly looks anything but dopey bless him
		
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No you can imagine what I might be faced with without it.... and I have not forgotten what he used to do to me as a 5 yr old


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## Michen (28 July 2020)

Best. Scene. Ever. 

Boggle is so happy. He deserves turnout and a mate. I’ve always hated him being on individual turnout.  I guess Bear is now Boggles pet so selling is certainly off the cards 😂

PS for those that followed my thread on Bear bucking- he loved the equipe 🙄


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## splashgirl45 (28 July 2020)

how nice that they are ok together,  lovely restful looking pictures


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## Michen (28 July 2020)

splashgirl45 said:



			how nice that they are ok together,  lovely restful looking pictures
		
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I hope they stay that way! Really is heart warming.


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## alexomahony (28 July 2020)

Just caught up with this - SO pleased for you Michen! I know exactly what you mean about riding ‘your’ horse... i’ve had Sky 7 years now but there’s still nothing like sitting on Maldwyn for me ❤️
Really looking forward to further updates and if you’re keeping Bear, I hope to see a ‘Boggle and Bear’ Instagram page to follow soon


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## ElleSkywalker (28 July 2020)

All Bogs deserve a pet Bear 😍🤗🥰


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## Michen (28 July 2020)

alexomahony said:



			Just caught up with this - SO pleased for you Michen! I know exactly what you mean about riding ‘your’ horse... i’ve had Sky 7 years now but there’s still nothing like sitting on Maldwyn for me ❤️
Really looking forward to further updates and if you’re keeping Bear, I hope to see a ‘Boggle and Bear’ Instagram page to follow soon 

Click to expand...

Aha it’s not named as such (genevieve_isobel) but it’s is pretty much a bog and bear insta!!


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## Michen (28 July 2020)

ElleSkywalker said:



			All Bogs deserve a pet Bear 😍🤗🥰
		
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Bog gets whatever he needs and if he needs a pet...


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## Michen (28 July 2020)

Ps Bob has a pet too- Pepper 😍


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## Dyllymoo (29 July 2020)

Im so pleased to see them happy together.  Moving J so he had a friend was the best move I have done, he is so much happier and confident


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## Jeni the dragon (29 July 2020)

Great pictures! So lovely to see!


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## Michen (29 July 2020)

Dyllymoo said:



			Im so pleased to see them happy together.  Moving J so he had a friend was the best move I have done, he is so much happier and confident 

Click to expand...

Yes Bog has been on his own through total fault of his own... but for some reason “seems” to be ok with Bear touch wood.

Or he’s mellowing with age! Still screams at every horse that dares to get too near to his stable though!

And here’s the difference between the two this am. Bog sees me and is immediately active, engaging. Bear can’t even be arsed to move from his patch of grass and just wants an easy life 😂. Nice to know Bog hasn’t replaced me with Bear though


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## tatty_v (29 July 2020)

Michen said:



			Bog gets whatever he needs and if he needs a pet...
		
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Totally agree with this. My boy has a pet Shetland - he deserves it! (And the Shetland’s pretty cute too 😆) Really pleased to see things are looking up for you, you’ve been through the mill a bit with these two recently!


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## Michen (29 July 2020)

tatty_v said:



			Totally agree with this. My boy has a pet Shetland - he deserves it! (And the Shetland’s pretty cute too 😆) Really pleased to see things are looking up for you, you’ve been through the mill a bit with these two recently!
		
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I think Bog would murder a Shetland LOL!! A pet Shetland for me would be ideal though.

I’m not sure how it’s all gone so wrong, the whole point was for Bog to go off on retirement livery until next year and Bear to have his stable and then be sold. Now I have two horses which need work (Bog more important than ever re spavin), both on livery, the exact situation I wanted to avoid!

But- I love it!  And it’s made manageable by a pro rider for Bear a couple of times a week and a fantastic sharer who is completely invested in them both despite them both being a bit useless on the fun/competing front!


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## Asha (29 July 2020)

just read your updates, what fantastic news all round. He certainly looks very perky !

a friend of mine had the same issue. Her horse had been in a fair amount of work, but it dropped right back over lockdown, she noticed he was a little off behind. Took him to the vets and they advised to up the work load as xrays showed a touch of arthritis. Hes now back to normal and sound as a pound.


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## Michen (29 July 2020)

Asha said:



			just read your updates, what fantastic news all round. He certainly looks very perky !

a friend of mine had the same issue. Her horse had been in a fair amount of work, but it dropped right back over lockdown, she noticed he was a little off behind. Took him to the vets and they advised to up the work load as xrays showed a touch of arthritis. Hes now back to normal and sound as a pound.
		
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That’s really good to hear thanks! Bog even pre injury has a lameness check every 6 months and has never been positive to flexion. With his confo etc it’s not entirely surprising he has hock changes, I guess it’ll just be a case of managing.

Am not sure what I’ll do in winter though as with the soft tissue injury I don’t really want him in the school until next year, but will need to keep him moving and fit for the hocks...


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## milliepops (29 July 2020)

Kira has a pet too, as I have to pay for a livery stable I prefer a pet that I can ride but I think she'd love a mini that was allllll hers


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## Michen (29 July 2020)

milliepops said:



			Kira has a pet too, as I have to pay for a livery stable I prefer a pet that I can ride but I think she'd love a mini that was allllll hers 

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I didn’t realise D was Kira’s pet!! 😁


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## milliepops (29 July 2020)

Michen said:



			I didn’t realise D was Kira’s pet!! 😁
		
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yeah she's fairly impossible to keep happy without a friend that is under my control  she gets terrible FOMO but having a pet keeps her happy for the 23 hours of the day that he stays with her!  when I want to ride she just has a big sulk.


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## Michen (29 July 2020)

milliepops said:



			yeah she's fairly impossible to keep happy without a friend that is under my control  she gets terrible FOMO but having a pet keeps her happy for the 23 hours of the day that he stays with her!  when I want to ride she just has a big sulk.
		
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Natives.. the most high maintenance of them all. ESPECIALLY the emotional ones that don’t believe they are natives.


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## tatty_v (29 July 2020)

milliepops said:



			yeah she's fairly impossible to keep happy without a friend that is under my control  she gets terrible FOMO but having a pet keeps her happy for the 23 hours of the day that he stays with her!  when I want to ride she just has a big sulk.
		
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This is exactly why Spooky has a pet. After 5 years of desperately trying to keep him happy (and in a paddock!), my husband and I decided that the answer was something under my control. Cue a yearling Shetland colt 🤣 honestly the best £450 we’ve ever spent! Maybe Bog would love one....!


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## Michen (29 July 2020)

tatty_v said:



			This is exactly why Spooky has a pet. After 5 years of desperately trying to keep him happy (and in a paddock!), my husband and I decided that the answer was something under my control. Cue a yearling Shetland colt 🤣 honestly the best £450 we’ve ever spent! Maybe Bog would love one....!
		
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Well I hope Bog is very grateful for his 3k plus pet then ha!

I hope they don't become to dependent on each other is all.


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## SEL (29 July 2020)

Michen said:



			Natives.. the most high maintenance of them all. ESPECIALLY the emotional ones that don’t believe they are natives.
		
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Oh yes.... I got mine a pet Ardennes. Just a bigger Shetland really. Easier to manage IMO


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## Michen (29 July 2020)

Friend sent me this this eve. Bog the Friday evening he arrived From Ireland  in torrential rain at the M4 services. He was caked in mud, so skinny but so bold.

I remember being disappointed with how ugly he was, hence the name Boggle... who’d have known what he’d turn in to!!


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## ElleSkywalker (29 July 2020)

Oh just look at the scruffy baby Bog 😍 and now, so sleek, so handsome, so totally trained you to be his slave 😂


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## Michen (3 August 2020)

This is how Boggle tells Bear he would like this tail itched... Came around the corner to find them up to no good.

These two crack me up, when Bear didn’t do as asked Bog would spin around, squeak and then shove his bottom back into Bear whilst moving it around to try and get that itch satisfied 🙈😂 Poor Bear. No ponies were harmed as the result of Boggles weirdness! They are the best of friends  Albiet Bog will have to go on a different tie ring for being so demanding!


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## SatansLittleHelper (4 August 2020)

They look a proper picture together ❤ 😍


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## Michen (4 August 2020)

SatansLittleHelper said:



			They look a proper picture together ❤ 😍
		
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it’s a shame the shade of bay doesn’t quite match though 😂


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## Errin Paddywack (4 August 2020)

Lovely picture, much easier to tell them apart there.  Boggle has really come on from his baby picture.  Looking superb at the moment, Bear too.


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## Laurac13 (4 August 2020)

Bog looks like he’s enjoying his outings just as much as you 😄 great to hear the positive news 👍


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## Pinkvboots (4 August 2020)

Michen said:



			it’s a shame the shade of bay doesn’t quite match though 😂
		
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My bays don't match either Arabi is lighter and has a finer coat than Louis, you can't have it all I suppose lol!

My 2 have very similar attributes to yours Arabi is very dominant his not keen on many horses at all, I worried for Louis when he came hence why I put them in separate fields, he was used as a nanny to the foals so the total opposite to Arabi, on the first day of them going out Louis got in with Arabi and they were fine they just got on from the start, Arabi will use Louis as a scratching post and herds him around the field and he just puts up with it bless him.


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## Tiddlypom (4 August 2020)

Michen said:



			it’s a shame the shade of bay doesn’t quite match though 😂
		
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Garnier brown hair dye colour chart. You’d need quite a few bottles to colour a whole horse, though .


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## Michen (8 August 2020)

A cuddle for Bear first time attempting to ride and lead them both. He also went around the block in the new trailer (sold my lorry) and didn’t bat an eyelid, unlike his brother who had to do 10 reps of just being led through it to get him to chill out and stop jumping the ramp!

Such different horses! Bog is doing really well, just started a 45 min loop and will do that for a week and then start “normal” hacking.


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## be positive (8 August 2020)

Please check your stirrups are the same length, you are either sitting to one side or Bog is pushing you over, I know it is only 2 photos but it was the first thing I noticed in both. 

Pleased they behaved well


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## Michen (8 August 2020)

be positive said:



			Please check your stirrups are the same length, you are either sitting to one side or Bog is pushing you over, I know it is only 2 photos but it was the first thing I noticed in both.

Pleased they behaved well 

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It’s defo Bog, the leathers are brand new. I can feel it too and discussed it with vet, we are going to see how the next few weeks go but may be we need to jab his hocks to get him back moving straight and build up some strength.


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## be positive (8 August 2020)

Michen said:



			It’s defo Bog, the leathers are brand new. I can feel it too and discussed it with vet, we are going to see how the next few weeks go but may be we need to jab his hocks to get him back moving straight and build up some strength.
		
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If he is pushing you over that much something needs doing as he will build up unevenly and it will get worse, the hock may be worse than expected so maybe the injections could be done sooner than planned.


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## DabDab (8 August 2020)

Late to the party, but good news on Bog, must be nice to be able to have a slightly easier management routine for him now. I did feel for you a few weeks back - having a horse myself who starts causing herself injuries as soon as not in regular work, I was feeling vicarious stress reading your updates


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## Michen (8 August 2020)

be positive said:



			If he is pushing you over that much something needs doing as he will build up unevenly and it will get worse, the hock may be worse than expected so maybe the injections could be done sooner than planned.
		
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If I had to call it I’d say it’s actually getting better rather than worse but I do agree- it’s being monitored
I wouldn’t hesitate to jab if needed but I want to give it another week or so before starting that process.. the hock has become an issue quickly as he was not positive to flexion when he got signed off Mid May. It’s not helped by the fact I naturally put more weight onto my left anyway, hence the frequent physio checks!


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## Michen (8 August 2020)

DabDab said:



			Late to the party, but good news on Bog, must be nice to be able to have a slightly easier management routine for him now. I did feel for you a few weeks back - having a horse myself who starts causing herself injuries as soon as not in regular work, I was feeling vicarious stress reading your updates
		
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Ahh thanks DD. It’s been a really awful time tbh, and obviously still a way to go with Bog but I’m confident he will have some form of working life and we will just do whatever he wants to do! He is so so much happier now he’s being ridden and turned out.


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## DabDab (8 August 2020)

Busy horses eh, a blessing and a curse in equal measure!

I'll trade you some of my right leg weights for your left leg weights. Instructor yesterday had cause to declare "I'm going to shove your hip over in a minute"


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## Roxylola (8 August 2020)

I too can offer you crooked right to level out your crooked left - although I'm hopeful I'll resolve that this thursday for me at least as I've booked a lesson with Andy Thomas. My problem is I had wonky hips my whole life - had them mostly straightened with bowen, but now I'm so used to compensating my default is wonk!
Gorgeous boys though and so pleased they were good for you.


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## Michen (15 August 2020)

Been a bit unmotivated re riding the last week, hot weather etc.  Plus it’s stubble field season and at this time I’d be getting Bog fit for hunting and we’d be enjoying every field could. Was feeling a bit sad and frustrated and then gave myself a massive kick up the arse because a few weeks ago I thought I may never even ride this horse again. And he manages to give me so much joy even at a walk out hacking!

Bear decided he wanted to lead Bog, not be led off him, down to the field. They are such a pair of ruffians when they are together! He’s had a short holiday and will be getting back to work from today

That cheeky pony glint seems to be making an appearance rather a lot these days! It’s hard to believe he was ever so nervous and jumpy .
I feel like I’m crawling along with Bear especially when I see what other 4yo are up to on the forum. We’ve yet to start jumping at all and really he should be going to some low key dressage. But it just feels like the right pace for us (me!?), and no harm ever came from a 4yo spending most of his first proper year under saddle hacking I guess! No pressure or expectations


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## palo1 (15 August 2020)

Yes, some 4 year olds are doing really interesting stuff and it does inspire me to just do a tiny bit more but not much actually.  There is plenty of time unless you want to compete in young horse classes or sell on as a more established horse.  I feel like I have really upped the ante by planning regular school work (once a week in honesty..!) as well as some short formal sessions with an instructor (1/2 an hour per week).  My young horse is not really developed enough (still bum high) nor balanced enough to do anything much more than hacking though to be fair my hacking is quite hard work.  You just have to do what works for you and your plans and enjoy the lack of deadlines/pressure etc.  All that will come soon enough if you plan to compete or even sell.  If you really wanted could you not work towards a lightweight winter dressage plan with Intro and prelim tests?


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## J&S (15 August 2020)

We sat on and rode out a few times when the coloured mare was 3.  Then we put her in foal so she was 4  when foal was weaned.  I then hacked her around with my NF for until the next Autumn and didn't start any serious schooling until then.  So at 5 she was quite ready to do some riding club stuff and by the time she was 6 she was doing PC with my quite novice step daughter.  All this seemed quite soon enough to me and gave her a pretty solid back ground for life.  I don't see any reason to hurry them along unless they are a commercial project.  Just make sure Bear enjoys the work he does now so he is ready to progress when you feel the time is right.


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## Michen (16 August 2020)

palo1 said:



			Yes, some 4 year olds are doing really interesting stuff and it does inspire me to just do a tiny bit more but not much actually.  There is plenty of time unless you want to compete in young horse classes or sell on as a more established horse.  I feel like I have really upped the ante by planning regular school work (once a week in honesty..!) as well as some short formal sessions with an instructor (1/2 an hour per week).  My young horse is not really developed enough (still bum high) nor balanced enough to do anything much more than hacking though to be fair my hacking is quite hard work.  You just have to do what works for you and your plans and enjoy the lack of deadlines/pressure etc.  All that will come soon enough if you plan to compete or even sell.  If you really wanted could you not work towards a lightweight winter dressage plan with Intro and prelim tests?
		
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Exactly right actually. Might have to think about some dressage divaing yes.. or just take him hunting


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## Michen (16 August 2020)

Sorry for the Bear spam but I’m so delighted with him! We went on our first solo and first ridden (with me riding) outing. Met a friend for a hack on the common which is insanely busy, kids, cows, bikes, pushchairs etc. I was a little apprehensive about towing properly again but he’s just so sensible, no issues and stood on trailer for 20 mins whilst we waited for delayed friend.

He couldn’t have been more relaxed, did all the gates and just generally behaved like an 8 yo the entire time. When I took Bog on this very trip as a 5yo I had acoustic ears, a market harborough and an exercise blanket on him to try and keep him rideable 😂😂.

Hopefully the next pics will be with hounds....!


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## J&S (16 August 2020)

Delightful!


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## splashgirl45 (16 August 2020)

lovely boy


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## Laurac13 (16 August 2020)

Awesome 👏 I think you’ll be having lots of fun with Bear as well as Bog 😄


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## Michen (16 August 2020)

Laurac13 said:



			Awesome 👏 I think you’ll be having lots of fun with Bear as well as Bog 😄
		
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Me too he’s such a cheeky but sweet little soul. I guess I have to stop calling him meat head 😝😂


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## Jayzee (17 August 2020)

What a gem! Sounds like you're on the right track from some low key hunting


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## SatansLittleHelper (17 August 2020)

So lovely to see. Bear looks like a little sweetheart bless him (you're still my favourite though Boggle 🤫). So very pleased for you that things are going well and that you are able to enjoy your boys. Bear is a credit to you 👏


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## Michen (18 August 2020)

SatansLittleHelper said:



			So lovely to see. Bear looks like a little sweetheart bless him (you're still my favourite though Boggle 🤫). So very pleased for you that things are going well and that you are able to enjoy your boys. Bear is a credit to you 👏
		
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Ahh thank you- I'll let Bog know 

I've just booked the vet to come and jab Boggle's hocks next week. hope I'm doing the right thing..


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## Michen (19 August 2020)

A musing.. took both my boys for a hack this morning. Friend on Bear me on Bog. To get out hacking you go up a steep grassy track that runs between two fields. Recently there’s been a big coil of white tape left by the fence and most horses have had a look. Bear first saw it at the weekend and was in front of a big hack group. Grabbed the bit and span, got firm use of stick and leg, span again, got whacked (rightly or wrongly) and then went. Did the same again with friend on Monday but went 3rd time. Today however he massively escalated it, tanking off down the hill, spinning and even lifting his front feet off the ground for good measure. He absolutely would not go and friend getting worried. We swapped horses and i also found it was a real battle- I’m not a weak rider but Bear is immensely physically strong and really sets his neck against you. It was physically impossible to stop him spinning. No amount of stick and leg would drive him forward (and I had a stick in both hands!) Behaviour getting worse and worse and unpleasant on a sloppy steep track and Bear himself getting really upset.

So a change of tact, asking him to go past alongside Boggle and then slightly in front and then building it up (we must have done the loop about ten times) until he was going past it on his own happily enough. This was successful, horse went back to being reasonable and responded well to lots of praise and a softer approach.

Bear hasn’t in 6 months said “NO” like that to something he’s been worried about   He will usually always go second time. Made weirder by the fact he had been past it twice. In my mind the horse has to go however worried and that sort of behaviour isn’t acceptable and has to be worked through, but it was escalating so much the change of tact to a softer approach felt like the only thing to do.

Would you have done this or would you have absolutely insisted the horse goes past it as asked- in front of the other horse? Bearing in mind this is a usually very rational, reasonable 4yo but with a cheeky streak and will absolutely try it on if he thinks he can get away with it. Personally I would have insisted he went past on his own as asked in normal circumstances however much of a battle/escalation it took, but the steep slippery hill made it feel verging on dangerous hence trying the alternative approach.

I guess we all have our different ways but interested to hear what yours would have been- and what would you have done if you were on your own without a lead horse? 😀


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## BBP (19 August 2020)

Michen said:



			A musing.. took both my boys for a hack this morning. Friend on Bear me on Bog. To get out hacking you go up a steep grassy track that runs between two fields. Recently there’s been a big coil of white tape left by the fence and most horses have had a look. Bear first saw it at the weekend and was in front of a big hack group. Grabbed the bit and span, got firm use of stick and leg, span again, got whacked and then went. Did the same again with friend on Monday but went 3rd time. Today however he massively escalated it, tanking off down the hill, spinning and even lifting his front feet off the ground for good measure. He absolutely would not go and friend getting worried. We swapped horses and i also found it was a real battle- I’m not a weak rider but Bear is immensely physically strong and really sets his neck against you. It was physically impossible to stop him spinning. No amount of stick and leg would drive him forward (and I had a stick in both hands!) Behaviour getting worse and worse and unpleasant on a sloppy steep track and Bear himself getting really upset.

So a change of tact, asking him to go past alongside Boggle and then slightly in front and then building it up (we must have done the loop about ten times) until he was going past it on his own happily enough. This was successful, horse went back to being reasonable and responded well to lots of praise and a softer approach.

Bear hasn’t in 6 months said “NO” like that to something he’s been worried about   He will usually always go second time. Made weirder by the fact he had been past it twice. In my mind the horse has to go however worried and that sort of behaviour isn’t acceptable and has to be worked through, but it was escalating so much the change of tact to a softer approach felt like the only thing to do.

Would you have done this or would you have absolutely insisted the horse goes past it as asked- in front of the other horse? Bearing in mind this is a usually very rational, reasonable 4yo but with a cheeky streak and will absolutely try it on if he thinks he can get away with it. Personally I would have insisted he went past on his own as asked in normal circumstances however much of a battle/escalation it took, but the steep slippery hill made it feel verging on dangerous hence trying the alternative approach.

I guess we all have our different ways but interested to hear what yours would have been 😀
		
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Honestly if my horse saw a giant white snake coiled up and was trying to protect us both from getting bitten by it I wouldn’t whack him for it. Horses in countries all over the world have saved their riders lives by reacting like Bear did, being on the look out for cougars, snakes, rotten bridges etc. Having ridden in the states and Africa I don’t mind them using a bit of instinct. Clearly in this instance the human knows better (unless there really was a snake within the snake?!) so I would have taken your second approach of letting him gain confidence from the other horse, or from me leading him if I knew he wouldn’t pull away. But I own a horse that escalates to panic quickly and have learned that once the heart is pounding through the saddle no smack or kick is going to shake him out of it, whereas generally he will follow past anyone.


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## Roxylola (19 August 2020)

I'd let them follow a reliable friend and work to build up confidence from there. Especially if he rarely says no, he obviously for the most part trusts you, I dont see any point making a battle out of something small when there is a safe easy alternative


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## Michen (19 August 2020)

BBP said:



			Honestly if my horse saw a giant white snake coiled up and was trying to protect us both from getting bitten by it I wouldn’t whack him for it. Horses in countries all over the world have saved their riders lives by reacting like Bear did, being on the look out for cougars, snakes, rotten bridges etc. Having ridden in the states and Africa I don’t mind them using a bit of instinct. Clearly in this instance the human knows better (unless there really was a snake within the snake?!) so I would have taken your second approach of letting him gain confidence from the other horse, or from me leading him if I knew he wouldn’t pull away. But I own a horse that escalates to panic quickly and have learned that once the heart is pounding through the saddle no smack or kick is going to shake him out of it, whereas generally he will follow past anyone.
		
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Hmm interesting. See I saw what he was doing as potentially nappy as well, using something as an excuse to not properly leave the yard (he has tried napping previously). I also don't find spinning and tanking off acceptable behaviour however scared, Boggle was a real bugger for that as a baby and he very very rarely does it now- he knows he can stop and assess if really needed but spinning isn't acceptable behaviour.

It's tricky to make sure I don't treat Bear like Bog, as very different horses, but Bear is the sort you give an inch and he takes a mile... but on this occasion I think I needed to think differently a bit quicker than I did.


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## Michen (19 August 2020)

Roxylola said:



			I'd let them follow a reliable friend and work to build up confidence from there. Especially if he rarely says no, he obviously for the most part trusts you, I dont see any point making a battle out of something small when there is a safe easy alternative
		
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Yep I think I was frustrated because he'd been passed it twice with much less battle- so I didn't feel his behaviour was genuinely being scared... but horses aren't always exactly rational are they! I do wonder though what I would have done if I'd been on my own with no lead horse? As he'd have had to go past it then unless I got off and lead.


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## Auslander (19 August 2020)

Michen said:



			A musing.. took both my boys for a hack this morning. Friend on Bear me on Bog. To get out hacking you go up a steep grassy track that runs between two fields. Recently there’s been a big coil of white tape left by the fence and most horses have had a look. Bear first saw it at the weekend and was in front of a big hack group. Grabbed the bit and span, got firm use of stick and leg, span again, got whacked and then went. Did the same again with friend on Monday but went 3rd time. Today however he massively escalated it, tanking off down the hill, spinning and even lifting his front feet off the ground for good measure. He absolutely would not go and friend getting worried. We swapped horses and i also found it was a real battle- I’m not a weak rider but Bear is immensely physically strong and really sets his neck against you. It was physically impossible to stop him spinning. No amount of stick and leg would drive him forward (and I had a stick in both hands!) Behaviour getting worse and worse and unpleasant on a sloppy steep track and Bear himself getting really upset.

So a change of tact, asking him to go past alongside Boggle and then slightly in front and then building it up (we must have done the loop about ten times) until he was going past it on his own happily enough. This was successful, horse went back to being reasonable and responded well to lots of praise and a softer approach.

Bear hasn’t in 6 months said “NO” like that to something he’s been worried about   He will usually always go second time. Made weirder by the fact he had been past it twice. In my mind the horse has to go however worried and that sort of behaviour isn’t acceptable and has to be worked through, but it was escalating so much the change of tact to a softer approach felt like the only thing to do.

Would you have done this or would you have absolutely insisted the horse goes past it as asked- in front of the other horse? Bearing in mind this is a usually very rational, reasonable 4yo but with a cheeky streak and will absolutely try it on if he thinks he can get away with it. Personally I would have insisted he went past on his own as asked in normal circumstances however much of a battle/escalation it took, but the steep slippery hill made it feel verging on dangerous hence trying the alternative approach.

I guess we all have our different ways but interested to hear what yours would have been 😀
		
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I probably wouldn't have escalated to hitting/kicking quite so quickly. I'm all for forgiving a horse who spots something and spooks/spins the first time, then letting them come back and have a good look at whatever it is. Once they've had a bit of time to process, have a good gawp, try it on a bit more, then have another look,  then I'd ask quietly for forward, and allow for a bit of wiggling. I feel that if the horse over reacts, then the rider overreacts, the horse will then escalate the situation, as he's expecting a spanking, as well as being frightened of the original trigger - so the whole scenario is blown up into a crisis situation in their little brains. 
I think its perfectly ok for a 4yr old to have a handhold from an older, wiser friend.


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## Roxylola (19 August 2020)

Michen said:



			Yep I think I was frustrated because he'd been passed it twice with much less battle- so I didn't feel his behaviour was genuinely being scared... but horses aren't always exactly rational are they! I do wonder though what I would have done if I'd been on my own with no lead horse? As he'd have had to go past it then unless I got off and lead.
		
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I'd have hopped off and led if I'd been on my own, maybe it's a bit of nappiness, but even if it is that stems from insecurity. I'll also sit on for a bit as long as it's safe to do, let them look and weigh it all up for a while although I'll correct them if they go to spin or something. I dont think battling them past something "scary" helps in the long term, if it's a permanent fixture the more you dominate him past it the scarier the whole thing becomes for him


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## Errin Paddywack (19 August 2020)

In your shoes if I had been on my own I would have got off and led past it, no point in a battle which often leads to escalating behaviour.  My section C would have a violent spook at something and then if I let him just stand and think about it would eventually march up to it, check it out then pass quite happily.  My appaloosa mare however, if she really spooked I got off and led because her next approach was to rear.


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## BBP (19 August 2020)

It’s definitely horse dependent. My sister has connie crosses and they can be pushed past most things if given time to assess the situation and then ridden forwards with a ‘we are going past this’ attitude. Whereas with BBP, he will spot something a mile away and his heart starts banging, legs start shaking, eyes on stalks and it’s a genuine fear. If you try to bully him forwards it then a switch flips and he goes into survival mode, complete with dragon snorts and whatever he has to do to get away. Whereas if you hop off and lead, or let another horse lead, you can generally get him past, tell him he’s a plonker and carry on as normal. The other week was an exception as I was leading out in hand, he saw monsters and I tried to keep coaxing him forwards but he got more and more panicked until he was spinning and rearing and fell on the road. What I should have done with him is just take him home as soon as he started to get stressed as some days there is no reasoning with him, especially when he is in pain. But he is a very ‘special’ case (arguments to be made as to whether I made him that way by being too soft) and I don’t treat others the same.


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## Michen (19 August 2020)

Auslander said:



			I probably wouldn't have escalated to hitting/kicking quite so quickly. I'm all for forgiving a horse who spots something and spooks/spins the first time, then letting them come back and have a good look at whatever it is. Once they've had a bit of time to process, have a good gawp, try it on a bit more, then have another look,  then I'd ask quietly for forward, and allow for a bit of wiggling. I feel that if the horse over reacts, then the rider overreacts, the horse will then escalate the situation, as he's expecting a spanking, as well as being frightened of the original trigger - so the whole scenario is blown up into a crisis situation in their little brains.
I think its perfectly ok for a 4yr old to have a handhold from an older, wiser friend.
		
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Hmm interesting. Maybe I'm a bit overly firm then- I just see spinning and tanking as completely unacceptable behaviour hence using strong aids to correct. But possibly I'm overly sensitive on it due to Boggle young behaviour.

What if you are on your own with the 4yo out hacking in that scenario and can't rely on a lead horse?


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## Wheels (19 August 2020)

He escalated things because he had already had a bit of a fright but instead of being there for him you whacked him a few times!  Then the second and third time he was still worried about whatever it was but also worried he was going to get another thwack and that caused him to bubble over.  Far too stressful for a 4 year old.  Patience is often required with sensitive horses of any age but especially a young horse.

I agree with you that horses must go passed something but your quieter method worked where your forceful method may have got you passed once but caused you more problems in the long run.


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## Michen (19 August 2020)

BBP said:



			It’s definitely horse dependent. My sister has connie crosses and they can be pushed past most things if given time to assess the situation and then ridden forwards with a ‘we are going past this’ attitude. Whereas with BBP, he will spot something a mile away and his heart starts banging, legs start shaking, eyes on stalks and it’s a genuine fear. If you try to bully him forwards it then a switch flips and he goes into survival mode, complete with dragon snorts and whatever he has to do to get away. Whereas if you hop off and lead, or let another horse lead, you can generally get him past, tell him he’s a plonker and carry on as normal. The other week was an exception as I was leading out in hand, he saw monsters and I tried to keep coaxing him forwards but he got more and more panicked until he was spinning and rearing and fell on the road. What I should have done with him is just take him home as soon as he started to get stressed as some days there is no reasoning with him, especially when he is in pain. But he is a very ‘special’ case (arguments to be made as to whether I made him that way by being too soft) and I don’t treat others the same.
		
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Yep see the scenarios felt different today. First two times where he went reasonably quickly he wasn't upset, it felt like real naughtiness. But today he felt genuinely upset- hence changing tact quite quickly. 

I can't think of a scenario where Bog has ever refused to go past something with that much commitment!


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## Michen (19 August 2020)

Wheels said:



			He escalated things because he had already had a bit of a fright but instead of being there for him you whacked him a few times!  Then the second and third time he was still worried about whatever it was but also worried he was going to get another thwack and that caused him to bubble over.  Far too stressful for a 4 year old.  Patience is often required with sensitive horses of any age but especially a young horse.

I agree with you that horses must go passed something but your quieter method worked where your forceful method may have got you passed once but caused you more problems in the long run.
		
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The quieter method worked because I had a lead horse. To be clear- I would never put any pressure on a horse for stopping and looking- but tanking off down the hill and spinning into other horses etc with what initially felt like nappiness felt like it needed some strong correction. The first few times in no way did I feel he was genuinely frightened, but today he obviously got upset as it esculated - hence changing approach.


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## BBP (19 August 2020)

Michen said:



			Yep see the scenarios felt different today. First two times where he went reasonably quickly he wasn't upset, it felt like real naughtiness. But today he felt genuinely upset- hence changing tact quite quickly. 

I can't think of a scenario where Bog has ever refused to go past something with that much commitment!
		
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I think you did the right thing in that you recognised that what you were doing wasn’t helping and changed tactics. Nothing wrong with admitting you might have been a bit quick to be tough, in another scenario you might have been right. I’ve got tough with BBP before, some days I was fair and clear and it either worked or it didn’t, others I just got cross and lost my temper a bit, and those really didn’t work. Every day is a learning experience!


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## Michen (19 August 2020)

BBP said:



			I think you did the right thing in that you recognised that what you were doing wasn’t helping and changed tactics. Nothing wrong with admitting you might have been a bit quick to be tough, in another scenario you might have been right. I’ve got tough with BBP before, some days I was fair and clear and it either worked or it didn’t, others I just got cross and lost my temper a bit, and those really didn’t work. Every day is a learning experience!
		
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Yeah, I've generally been fairly soft with Bear because of where he started so when required he's been squashed but in a quiet way. I can't actually think of a time I've used a stick on him before (bar a schooling whip tickle to move off the leg)- BUT he is super cheeky and he can be immensely stubborn- far more so than Boggle who was explosive and excitable but generally gave up really quickly. And I genuinely felt this was cheekiness- until he got upset.

He's the kind of horse who will try something once and if he feels like it was successful will really try again...he learns this instantly. So I guess that's what I was trying to prevent as last time that happened it took a lot of effort to get him out of it (pulling away when being led)


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## HashRouge (19 August 2020)

Auslander said:



			I feel that if the horse over reacts, then the rider overreacts, the horse will then escalate the situation, as he's expecting a spanking, as well as being frightened of the original trigger - so the whole scenario is blown up into a crisis situation in their little brains.
		
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I think this is a really good point. It's important to remember, I think, that Bear is only 4 and is still quite new to this hacking out and seeing new things business. He might be unflappable about a lot of things, but he has obviously got a bee in his bonnet about this white tape. There is no point turning it into a battle of strength because from the sounds of it Bear is going to win and you will just end up with him more stressed and frightened and convinced he can't go past the tape! One thing I am certain off with horses is there is absolutely no point turning something into a battle if you don't have to. If I'd been on my own with him, yes I would have got off and led him past. I would then have led him backwards and forwards until he seemed calm and then got back on and tried riding past it. For the next week or two though, I would aim to do this ride with a friend and let Bear take a lead. He has obviously built it up in his head and you need to try and unpick that. I do get that spinning and tanking off is "naughty", but he isn't doing it specifically to be annoying/ naughty - he's doing it because he's 4 and he's found something he's nervous of. Take the time to build up his confidence and you won't get the naughty behaviour.

I hope that makes sense. I've had to really work on this with my own riding over the past year or so, as my share horse can be extremely nervous and there are various things that we meet out hacking that will cause him to halt and refuse to move, or spin and charge off in the other direction. He's an idiot, but I do recognise he's not being an idiot deliberately to annoy me! Smacking and kicking doesn't work with him - I tried it once to my regret early on when he wouldn't go past a certain section of road (there is a stream that runs next to the road at this point). What soon became clear was that the spinning and tanking off became worse the more pressure I put on. So I stopped, gave him a pat, got off and led him past. I then led him backwards and forwards multiple times until he was calm, then got back on and rode him past three or four times. He now very rarely spins and tanks off because he is more confident hacking and usually when he does try it, it is easier to stop him and get him over/ past whatever he is worried about.

Edited to add - he is a very different character from Bear from the sounds of it. Very twitchy and nervous about everything, so I don't think you'll have to work quite so hard or for as long with Bear!


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## Michen (19 August 2020)

HashRouge said:



			I think this is a really good point. It's important to remember, I think, that Bear is only 4 and is still quite new to this hacking out and seeing new things business. He might be unflappable about a lot of things, but he has obviously got a bee in his bonnet about this white tape. There is no point turning it into a battle of strength because from the sounds of it Bear is going to win and you will just end up with him more stressed and frightened and convinced he can't go past the tape! One thing I am certain off with horses is there is absolutely no point turning something into a battle if you don't have to. If I'd been on my own with him, yes I would have got off and led him past. I would then have led him backwards and forwards until he seemed calm and then got back on and tried riding past it. For the next week or two though, I would aim to do this ride with a friend and let Bear take a lead. He has obviously built it up in his head and you need to try and unpick that. I do get that spinning and tanking off is "naughty", but he isn't doing it specifically to be annoying/ naughty - he's doing it because he's 4 and he's found something he's nervous of. Take the time to build up his confidence and you won't get the naughty behaviour.

I hope that makes sense. I've had to really work on this with my own riding over the past year or so, as my share horse can be extremely nervous and there are various things that we meet out hacking that will cause him to halt and refuse to move, or spin and charge off in the other direction. He's an idiot, but I do recognise he's not being an idiot deliberately to annoy me! Smacking and kicking doesn't work with him - I tried it once to my regret early on when he wouldn't go past a certain section of road (there is a stream that runs next to the road at this point). What soon became clear was that the spinning and tanking off became worse the more pressure I put on. So I stopped, gave him a pat, got off and led him past. I then led him backwards and forwards multiple times until he was calm, then got back on and rode him past three or four times. He now very rarely spins and tanks off because he is more confident hacking and usually when he does try it, it is easier to stop him and get him over/ past whatever he is worried about.
		
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Yep makes sense! We did loads of standing him next to it, patting etc, he had no issues. But still then span again when represented and asked to walk past it. That made me suspicious of it being more nappiness, but by then we were on the softer approach anyway, so just took it back a step with Bog closer/more in front.

I am probably hyper aware because of Bears ability to learn bad/naughty behaviour so very quickly, the last thing I want is for him to think “cool, I can spin at stuff and tank off and nothing will really happen”. I wasn’t quick enough to nip some other behaviour in the bud early on (on the ground) and I really did pay for it!


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## HashRouge (19 August 2020)

Michen said:



			Yep makes sense! We did loads of standing him next to it, patting etc, he had no issues. But still then span again when represented and asked to walk past it. That made me suspicious of it being more nappiness, but by then we were on the softer approach anyway, so just took it back a step with Bog closer/more in front.

I am probably hyper aware because of Bears ability to learn bad/naughty behaviour so very quickly, the last thing I want is for him to think “cool, I can spin at stuff and tank off and nothing will really happen”. I wasn’t quick enough to nip some other behaviour in the bud early on (on the ground) and I really did pay for it!
		
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Your latter paragraph is why I would say avoid situations that have the potential to become a battle wherever possible, as he stands a good chance of winning and that could reinforce the nappiness (if that makes sense). If he doesn't have reason to tank off in the first place, he won't have the chance to learn it as a good evasion technique. I don't think that you need to go through and win this sort of battle in order to properly train him - the best approach is to avoid the battle in the first place!

As an example, when I worked as an SJ groom we were sent a nice 4 year old for producing. He had been backed, but it soon became very clear that he had learnt to rear vertically as an evasion technique! He would do it on the lunge and under saddle and you couldn't win the battle as he would just get sillier and sillier and rear higher if you kept trying to push him through it. So my boss got him on the long reins and spent a month long reining him all over the farm, as for some reason he didn't rear on the long reins. By the end of the month he seemed to have forgotten all about the rearing, and they were able to get back on him without any problems. He never did it again and was sold for a substantial amount of money as a 6 yr old. The rearing was incredibly dangerous behaviour and it was a battle that my boss knew would be very hard to win. So he avoided situations where the horse could rear as an evasion technique, and he just grew out of it. With older horses where the behaviour is already entrenched it can be different, but youngsters do seems to forget and grow out of things fairly easily if you give them a chance.


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## Michen (19 August 2020)

HashRouge said:



			Your latter paragraph is why I would say avoid situations that have the potential to become a battle wherever possible, as he stands a good chance of winning and that could reinforce the nappiness (if that makes sense). If he doesn't have reason to tank off in the first place, he won't have the chance to learn it as a good evasion technique. I don't think that you need to go through and win this sort of battle in order to properly train him - the best approach is to avoid the battle in the first place!

As an example, when I worked as an SJ groom we were sent a nice 4 year old for producing. He had been backed, but it soon became very clear that he had learnt to rear vertically as an evasion technique! He would do it on the lunge and under saddle and you couldn't win the battle as he would just get sillier and sillier and rear higher if you kept trying to push him through it. So my boss got him on the long reins and spent a month long reining him all over the farm, as for some reason he didn't rear on the long reins. By the end of the month he seemed to have forgotten all about the rearing, and they were able to get back on him without any problems. He never did it again and was sold for a substantial amount of money as a 6 yr old. The rearing was incredibly dangerous behaviour and it was a battle that my boss knew would be very hard to win. So he avoided situations where the horse could rear as an evasion technique, and he just grew out of it. With older horses where the behaviour is already entrenched it can be different, but youngsters do seems to forget and grow out of things fairly easily if you give them a chance.
		
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Yep makes lots of sense! Thanks for writing that out. I guess I felt once it had started with the spin/tank we had to work through it to make sure it was resolved. Sort of like when I decide to start having a sort out of my kitchen draws- you wish you hadn’t 

It’s definitely a learning experience bringing on Bear having bought on Bog. In some ways Bog was easier but just more scarey to ride! This is only my second youngster so all a learning curve...


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## ihatework (19 August 2020)

He sounds similar to my big horse who was angelic 99% and the 1% would have a bit of a meltdown over something innocuous. He was a funny mixture of a bit of an introverted worrier but with a glint of a cheeky welsh streak too, so it was a bit difficult to gauge if he was taking the piss or if it was his worry pot overflowing.

He never got hit. Ever. 

I could however stop him spinning, but when doing that he would go into reverse and get a little light in front. 

When he had a meltdown it was just a case of taking the adrenaline out of it and just sitting it out, praising for and forward thought and just giving him time to breathe and do the right thing. Whist gritting teeth and calling him names under breath. Thing is, once they aren’t expecting a bollocking and don’t then put up a fight, they end up coming back to planet earth quicker.


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## CanteringCarrot (19 August 2020)

It really is a fine line here. Every once in awhile my horse would come across something and just say NO. Or he'd have a moment of being barn sour and not want to be ridden away from the stable alone. He'd put it in reverse, spin, hop up in front, pirouette, piaffe, and put on a real show. However, really getting after him with my whip escalated things. Instead I calmly sit there. Relaxed my seat and breathed. I do try to block him from the side he is spinning to with my leg and rein. Real calm, not kicking or whipping. I just sit there calmly (ok maybe sometimes I laugh at his dramatics) and wait it out. If he stops and stands still. I'll take pressure off for a second and let him absorb what is happening. When he stands calm, I ask for forward again. If he goes into spin mode, I repeat the process. I praise when forward happens. He does go forward because my patience outlasts him and in his heart he is a bit lazy so gives up on the effort. He's never won, he's never gotten his way. He's always ended up going where I wanted to go. But once in a blue moon he'd play that card. Never worked for him, and he'd proceed on like nothing happend, so seemed to be much ado about nothing really.

Sometimes I think adding aids such as a whip or strong leg to the situation overwhelms them. Yes, they need to ultimately go forward and do as you say, but there can be a bit of finesse to it. You have to wind them down, not up. They see it as it being no big deal, the panic wears off, and they go on. If they lose their calm, you have to keep yours.


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## Michen (19 August 2020)

ihatework said:



			He sounds similar to my big horse who was angelic 99% and the 1% would have a bit of a meltdown over something innocuous. He was a funny mixture of a bit of an introverted worrier but with a glint of a cheeky welsh streak too, so it was a bit difficult to gauge if he was taking the piss or if it was his worry pot overflowing.

He never got hit. Ever.

I could however stop him spinning, but when doing that he would go into reverse and get a little light in front.

When he had a meltdown it was just a case of taking the adrenaline out of it and just sitting it out, praising for and forward thought and just giving him time to breathe and do the right thing. Whist gritting teeth and calling him names under breath. Thing is, once they aren’t expecting a bollocking and don’t then put up a fight, they end up coming back to planet earth quicker.
		
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Makes sense. I will definitely try that from the outset next time and see where it gets us.

It is tricky as I genuinely did not feel it was anything other than naughtiness the first and second time. I could quite literally see his eye and I’d have hand on heart said it was a cheeky youngster taking the piss and trying a new “thing”. And he did respond to the strong aids in the sense he didn’t get upset or wound up, he just went “yeah ok then”. Albiet it took two repetitions each time. So I expected the same today- just assuming this was a Bear try on.

If he hadn’t have spun and tanked I wouldn’t have been so firm but I really felt that if I didn’t strongly send him forward I’d have ended up back at the yard, and pausing to let him look just gave him the opportunity to go again.


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## CanteringCarrot (19 August 2020)

I do think the running thing is an added complication. In my post above, the horse is not a runner - that'd be too much effort on his part.


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## Michen (19 August 2020)

CanteringCarrot said:



			I do think the running thing is an added complication. In my post above, the horse is not a runner - that'd be too much effort on his part.
		
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Yes, that is or rather was his default. It was the same in hand- try and piss off if there’s something he doesn’t like. It transpired under saddle to an extent as well and I have spent months and months long reining and ground work to make sure that he understands when something upsets him he must stop and not run. And it’s been really successful- so perhaps I was over reacting to this as it also felt like a setback? A spin and stopping would have felt very different to a spin and trying to tank off down a slippery hill. It’s easily stoppable- he only gets a few horses lengths away.


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## Auslander (19 August 2020)

Michen said:



			Hmm interesting. Maybe I'm a bit overly firm then- I just see spinning and tanking as completely unacceptable behaviour hence using strong aids to correct. But possibly I'm overly sensitive on it due to Boggle young behaviour.

What if you are on your own with the 4yo out hacking in that scenario and can't rely on a lead horse?
		
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I'd still go for the sit and look scenario - let him have a think about stuff, and process it in his head before quietly suggesting that he tiptoes past it.

I don't reward (pats/voice/etc) for looking at scary things - it's counterprodutive, as it validates the scariness. A quiet pat once they've walked past the object of certain death is reward enough.


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## CanteringCarrot (19 August 2020)

Don't stress if there are the occasional "setbacks" In my experience, training a young horse isn't always so linear. There are ups, downs, and fine times in between.


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## Laurac13 (19 August 2020)

Roxylola said:



			I'd have hopped off and led if I'd been on my own, maybe it's a bit of nappiness, but even if it is that stems from insecurity. I'll also sit on for a bit as long as it's safe to do, let them look and weigh it all up for a while although I'll correct them if they go to spin or something. I dont think battling them past something "scary" helps in the long term, if it's a permanent fixture the more you dominate him past it the scarier the whole thing becomes for him
		
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I totally agree I’d have lead him past the scary thing, I used to do this with Merlin when he was 4


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## CanteringCarrot (19 August 2020)

I think I've written this on another thread, but I have had dismount and lead past fail. Hard. So really know your horse. This actually made the horse I did this with more nervous.


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## Michen (19 August 2020)

Indeed, and he's being a really super boy 99% of the time. 

I had to smile at Boggle though, he made no effort to follow, just stood there watching the drama like an old pro basically rolling his eyes. Yet usually it's Bear babysitting him  At 8 years old- might he be beginning to grow up...?


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## Michen (19 August 2020)

CanteringCarrot said:



			I think I've written this on another thread, but I have had dismount and lead past fail. Hard. So really know your horse. This actually made the horse I did this with more nervous.
		
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Yes and I'd be nervous doing that with Bear as although it's been many many months since he made any attempt to piss off in hand, I'd be concerned that I could lose him if he decided to give it a go. More control on board.


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## TheHairyOne (19 August 2020)

I might just chuck another idea into the mix as I see you werent riding him. If he was the nervous type and has now settled down with you on him and around him, maybe he just didnt get quite the same queues from your friend the first hack she did on him and then the second day his brain just reverted back to how he was at the beginning with you? 

Horses are funny creatures though. My boy still hasnt got over going past a log in a field (that he will happily jump!) without going 6 foot sideways. Can not for the life of me work out why, but least I am prepared for it these days and can avoid leaping so far we end up in the crops.


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## Michen (19 August 2020)

TheHairyOne said:



			I might just chuck another idea into the mix as I see you werent riding him. If he was the nervous type and has now settled down with you on him and around him, maybe he just didnt get quite the same queues from your friend the first hack she did on him and then the second day his brain just reverted back to how he was at the beginning with you?

Horses are funny creatures though. My boy still hasnt got over going past a log in a field (that he will happily jump!) without going 6 foot sideways. Can not for the life of me work out why, but least I am prepared for it these days and can avoid leaping so far we end up in the crops.
		
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So my friend was softer on him when he span than I was if I'm honest. She is a lovely, quiet rider and turned him back around and used a leg aid etc but he kept going and going. I think she did eventually use the stick on his shoulder to try and keep him straight but at that point I could see it was getting upsetting (front feet coming off the floor) so we swapped- actually we got him past using Boggle then went back down the hill (other side), then swapped and went back out again.

When he did it with me initially at the weekend my aids were very quick, very strong and forward from the offset. Not to actually get him past it, but to get him back into the position he was in before spinning and tanking which in turn he then sort of made the decision to go past himself- the strong aids were more of a correction of "you are not going to spin and tank" rather than a "you are going past this" if that makes sense? As once the former was sorted it naturally fixed the later. It was all over in less than a minute. If I'm honest I thought that would be the case when I got back on him today. But even when I got on today and he repeated the behaviour and I applied the same aids that had worked for me previously, it became evident that it had become too much of a "thing" by that point.

It's possible that he felt an opportunity having not been reprimanded for it quite so much for it yesterday than he was at the weekend, that he then pushed harder today. Or it's possible he just felt it was scarier today!


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## Michen (19 August 2020)

Ps I should add- friend rides him regularly. She was Boggle's sharer so now Bear has sort of stolen her as I have glued myself to Boggle's saddle!


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## J&S (19 August 2020)

Was it wetter/windier today?  I find the weather plays a big part and also the light.  The scary object will look different with/without sun etc.


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## Michen (19 August 2020)

J&S said:



			Was it wetter/windier today?  I find the weather plays a big part and also the light.  The scary object will look different with/without sun etc.
		
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Yes! Raining and also early morning. Bear REALLY doesn't appreciate being ridden in the  morning, if he's going to be tricky it'll always be then. He loves to come in, nap and then he's ready for the day... he is a creature of habit.


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## Caol Ila (19 August 2020)

I have also found that smacking a horse for any behaviour related to fear or lack of confidence pretty much never works. My first horse had a PhD in balking the first year I had her. She could plant her feet and not move for love nor money, and no amount of smacking and kicking would convince her to go. The behaviour didn't *look* like it came out of fear because on a superficial level anyway, the horse appeared calm when she did it. It looked like naughtiness. "I don't wanna go on this trail ride by myself." In hindsight, though, it probably came from fear. Why should she leave the nice, safe barn to go out there with this plonker of a human she had recently acquired. Over time, we worked with a TTEAM trainer and did lots of trust-based exercises, and the balking went away, as if by magic.

It's possible that Bear's escalation came from fear. He got smacked the first time or two he balked and spun at the white snake. But even though you got him past it, he didn't conclude at that time that the white snake was harmless. I've used force to get a horse past something the first time they spook at it and balk -- almost like you startle them into it, but woe betide you when you pass that thing again. Bear might've decided that the snake was scarier than he thought initially, because he got hit and the whole experience was uncomfortable, which reinforced the scariness of the white snake. So, when you/your sharer ended up having a row with him this time, he felt that it was really quite dangerous and he needed to get out of dodge. That's more like horsey logic. Horses don't see a scary object and think, "I'm going to spook at this thing because it will be an excuse to run back to the barn, and my rider will think I'm just being afraid. Hah." They are definitely incapable of that kind of abstract logic and duplicity.

That all said, it's not that I don't apply strong aids but I also have to use tact. Gypsum will go forward from strong leg aids, but if I get after her with the whip in a situation where she's fearful, she just gets upset, and then you have a lot more spinning and airs above the ground but haven't solved anything. The forward aids are more like, "Come on, pay attention to me. It's fine, so let's go," rather than punishment. And sometimes, you have to think about plan B. The other day on our hack, a guy was feeding a swan by the lake, so the swan was in the trail. The swan hissed at us, and Gypsum spun backwards. I stopped her with seat, legs, and reins, and asked her again to go. Swan hissed, we spun. Rinse, repeat several times. Had I gone for the whip, it just would have made it all more dramatic. Anyway, I realised at this point that so long as that swan was on the trail, we were not going. No amount of force would have changed that. But then the swan shuffled into the loch, albeit it stayed at the edge. I asked her to go and she was reluctant, but responded to a strong leg aid and jogged past. Then she got lots of pats.

I've totally bailed on routes before if the horse was getting so worked up and fearful about whatever that I couldn't communicate with her and felt we were approaching a battle that I would lose. You can't train a horse that's in flight mode anyway because they're not taking in information. When I do that, though, I make sure that she goes forward a few steps before I turn her around. The horse doesn't know how far you were planning to hack. So long as you decide when you turn around, even if it's just five steps after the point where the horse wanted to turn around, you're still in control and reinforcing good behaviour.


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## Michen (19 August 2020)

Caol Ila said:



			I have also found that smacking a horse for any behaviour related to fear or lack of confidence pretty much never works. My first horse had a PhD in balking the first year I had her. She could plant her feet and not move for love nor money, and no amount of smacking and kicking would convince her to go. The behaviour didn't *look* like it came out of fear because on a superficial level anyway, the horse appeared calm when she did it. It looked like naughtiness. "I don't wanna go on this trail ride by myself." In hindsight, though, it probably came from fear. Why should she leave the nice, safe barn to go out there with this plonker of a human she had recently acquired. Over time, we worked with a TTEAM trainer and did lots of trust-based exercises, and the balking went away, as if by magic.

It's possible that Bear's escalation came from fear. He got smacked the first time or two he balked and spun at the white snake. But even though you got him past it, he didn't conclude at that time that the white snake was harmless. I've used force to get a horse past something the first time they spook at it and balk -- almost like you startle them into it, but woe betide you when you pass that thing again. Bear might've decided that the snake was scarier than he thought initially, because he got hit and the whole experience was uncomfortable, which reinforced the scariness of the white snake. So, when you/your sharer ended up having a row with him this time, he felt that it was really quite dangerous and he needed to get out of dodge. That's more like horsey logic. Horses don't see a scary object and think, "I'm going to spook at this thing because it will be an excuse to run back to the barn, and my rider will think I'm just being afraid. Hah." They are definitely incapable of that kind of abstract logic and duplicity.

That all said, it's not that I don't apply strong aids but I also have to use tact. Gypsum will go forward from strong leg aids, but if I get after her with the whip in a situation where she's fearful, she just gets upset, and then you have a lot more spinning and airs above the ground but haven't solved anything. And sometimes, you have to think about plan B. The other day on our hack, a guy was feeding a swan by the lake, so the swan was in the trail. The swan hissed at us, and Gypsum spun backwards. I stopped her with seat, legs, and reins, and asked her again to go. Swan hissed, we spun. Rinse, repeat several times. Had I gone for the whip, it just would have made it all more dramatic. Anyway, I realised at this point that so long as that swan was on the trail, we were not going. No amount of force would have changed that. But then the swan shuffled into the loch, albeit it stayed at the edge. I asked her to go and she was reluctant, but responded to a strong leg aid and jogged past. Then she got lots of pats.
		
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I agree but to clarify- I would NEVER smack a horse that I thought was being genuinely fearful..same way I'd never smack a horse for not jumping a fence. The only reason I smacked Bear was because I didn't feel he was actually being fearful, I felt he was being a little spooky and then using that as an excuse to test out some naughty behaviour.

Obviously I may have been totally wrong and he may have been genuinely scared, so lesson learned etc.

Edited to add as properly read your post- I do think a horse can use a scarey object etc or catalyst to test the effectiveness of some behaviour. Bear is not as naturally forward thinking of Boggle, and he will "try" things. Any young horse is going to question and test at some point, and I guess I felt pretty strongly that that's what he was doing here. Not saying I got it right, I've had him 6 months and still sussing him out!


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## Marigold4 (19 August 2020)

Michen said:



			Yes! Raining and also early morning. Bear REALLY doesn't appreciate being ridden in the  morning, if he's going to be tricky it'll always be then. He loves to come in, nap and then he's ready for the day... he is a creature of habit.
		
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My 4 year old who has started hacking is the same. Much prefers to work in the pm after a snooze in his stable. Obviously, you don't want to end up with a horse that can only be ridden in the afternoon (!) but how about timing the easy, well-established things for the morning and more challenging activities for the pm? Just gives you best chance of success. Maybe keep hacks shorter? It's a big deal for babies to go out and see new things and can fry their little brains. I take my boy out solo for 25 mins at the mo and aim to get back while he's still feeling relaxed. He hasn't spooked at anything yet. I'm not saying you should keep to 25 mins - each baby will have its own limits - but that's as much as mine can do before getting tired and jumpy.


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## Michen (19 August 2020)

Marigold4 said:



			My 4 year old who has started hacking is the same. Much prefers to work in the pm after a snooze in his stable. Obviously, you don't want to end up with a horse that can only be ridden in the afternoon (!) but how about timing the easy, well-established things for the morning and more challenging activities for the pm? Just gives you best chance of success. Maybe keep hacks shorter? It's a big deal for babies to go out and see new things and can fry their little brains. I take my boy out solo for 25 mins at the mo and aim to get back while he's still feeling relaxed. He hasn't spooked at anything yet. I'm not saying you should keep to 25 mins - each baby will have its own limits - but that's as much as mine can do before getting tired and jumpy.
		
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Funny souls aren't they! Tbh, I didn't really think this morning would be an issue, I thought he'd only improve on the spinning thing from there on. He's only doing short hacks when with Bog anyway (whose just gently moving at the moment) , so we were only going for a 30 min pootle around the field.

He has it very, very easy in comparison to what other 4yo on the forum are out doing- I actually think if anything his brain probably needs a bit more challenging


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## Caol Ila (19 August 2020)

I guess I take the view that if a horse is acting fearful, i.e. spooky or not wanting to pass a certain object, it is fearful. I don't think they are mentally capable of that kind of disingenuousness. I've had riding instructors in the dim and distant past tell me, "Smack him. He's just pretending to be scared to get out of work," but nowadays I don't believe that. I think riders can inadvertantly reinforce spookiness in all sorts of ways and make their horses even spookier, but in the horses' minds, it's not "good" v. "bad" behaviour. It's just them reacting to however they're feeling.


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## Amymay (19 August 2020)

Auslander said:



			I probably wouldn't have escalated to hitting/kicking quite so quickly. I'm all for forgiving a horse who spots something and spooks/spins the first time, then letting them come back and have a good look at whatever it is. Once they've had a bit of time to process, have a good gawp, try it on a bit more, then have another look,  then I'd ask quietly for forward, and allow for a bit of wiggling. I feel that if the horse over reacts, then the rider overreacts, the horse will then escalate the situation, as he's expecting a spanking, as well as being frightened of the original trigger - so the whole scenario is blown up into a crisis situation in their little brains.
I think its perfectly ok for a 4yr old to have a handhold from an older, wiser friend.
		
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Beautifully put.


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## Michen (19 August 2020)

Caol Ila said:



			I guess I take the view that if a horse is acting fearful, i.e. spooky or not wanting to pass a certain object, it is fearful. I don't think they are mentally capable of that kind of disingenuousness. I've had riding instructors in the dim and distant past tell me, "Smack him. He's just pretending to be scared to get out of work," but nowadays I don't believe that. I think riders can inadvertantly reinforce spookiness in all sorts of ways and make their horses even spookier, but in the horses' minds, it's not "good" v. "bad" behaviour. It's just them reacting to however they're feeling.
		
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I know what you mean. It's a hard one to call, but I do think think horses test. What happens if I do this, was it successful, did I get to go home etc. Of course that can come from an inherent insecurity and more than likely does- but I want my horses to know that spinning and tanking is not acceptable behaviour (albiet maybe I didn't correctly educate on this behaviour) if they are worried about something. I'd have been a lot less strong with my aids if it was simply a spin.


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## palo1 (19 August 2020)

Michen said:



			Yep makes lots of sense! Thanks for writing that out. I guess I felt once it had started with the spin/tank we had to work through it to make sure it was resolved. Sort of like when I decide to start having a sort out of my kitchen draws- you wish you hadn’t 

It’s definitely a learning experience bringing on Bear having bought on Bog. In some ways Bog was easier but just more scarey to ride! This is only my second youngster so all a learning curve...
		
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I definately agree with HR - with young horses, because I am not so young or bold as I used to be AND because I always want to avoid horses learning nasty evasions (for whatever reason) I tend to work to avoid battles.  If and when something goes awry, with a 4 y/o horse I would always give them the benefit of the doubt, especially if I know that generally speaking I have done everything to help them out and that this is not a regular occurrence.   If I was you I would also be wondering and trying to work out WHY Bear took on himself to have that reaction and then over-reaction.  

I have had a similar scenario happen with a young horse and the thing uppermost in my mind at the time was that I absolutely did not want an escalation/recurrence etc so when the horse was in hand again (after spin and run no 1)  I rode forwards as far as was possible toward the offending object and at that point did a few 'exercises' to instill the idea that I was actually in the driving seat (a few steps of rein back, a couple of small circles etc) - nothing fancy but slightly diverting.  Once I had also achieved a nice sensible halt I dismounted, pretended to fiddle with tack for a moment and then led past before hopping back on.  All of those were familiar things, yet diffusing the tension about 'the object' and about both of our emotional states at that moment !!  At the time this was with a very sharp, clever horse that I absolutely did not want to upset or fall out with.  I used this strategy several times at the age of 4 and after that never really needed to play that game again.  Courage in a young horse is not endless and a good hearted horse who is trying to do the right thing can carry levels of anxiety that are not always obvious to us.  You can find that just 1 thing can send them off - pouf!!  into an apparantly random act of naughtiness!  I agree with you too, that some evasions are totally unacceptable but how you deal with that when they occur just varies enormously.  Young horses are not always rational, listening or able to cope as well as we hope for!


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## Michen (19 August 2020)

palo1 said:



			I definately agree with HR - with young horses, because I am not so young or bold as I used to be AND because I always want to avoid horses learning nasty evasions (for whatever reason) I tend to work to avoid battles.  If and when something goes awry, with a 4 y/o horse I would always give them the benefit of the doubt, especially if I know that generally speaking I have done everything to help them out and that this is not a regular occurrence.   If I was you I would also be wondering and trying to work out WHY Bear took on himself to have that reaction and then over-reaction. 

I have had a similar scenario happen with a young horse and the thing uppermost in my mind at the time was that I absolutely did not want an escalation/recurrence etc so when the horse was in hand again (after spin and run no 1)  I rode forwards as far as was possible toward the offending object and at that point did a few 'exercises' to instill the idea that I was actually in the driving seat (a few steps of rein back, a couple of small circles etc) - nothing fancy but slightly diverting.  Once I had also achieved a nice sensible halt I dismounted, pretended to fiddle with tack for a moment and then led past before hopping back on.  All of those were familiar things, yet diffusing the tension about 'the object' and about both of our emotional states at that moment !!  At the time this was with a very sharp, clever horse that I absolutely did not want to upset or fall out with.  I used this strategy several times at the age of 4 and after that never really needed to play that game again.  Courage in a young horse is not endless and a good hearted horse who is trying to do the right thing can carry levels of anxiety that are not always obvious to us.  You can find that just 1 thing can send them off - pouf!!  into an apparantly random act of naughtiness!  I agree with you too, that some evasions are totally unacceptable but how you deal with that when they occur just varies enormously.  Young horses are not always rational, listening or able to cope as well as we hope for!
		
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Yes this makes sense! It opens up an interesting conversation anyway. 

I guess it's just about knowing your horse too, Bear is quite a tricky one to suss out. I keep saying it but really, it took ONE occasion of him pulling back in hand and buggering off for him to really suss out that he could. The last thing I want is for him to think he can spin, tank and that it's acceptable.

But I agree, I think on this occasion there needed to be a workaround, so that the behaviour didn't happen in the first place.


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## palo1 (19 August 2020)

Michen said:



			Yes this makes sense! It opens up an interesting conversation anyway.

I guess it's just about knowing your horse too, Bear is quite a tricky one to suss out. I keep saying it but really, it took ONE occasion of him pulling back in hand and buggering off for him to really suss out that he could. The last thing I want is for him to think he can spin, tank and that it's acceptable.

But I agree, I think on this occasion there needed to be a workaround, so that the behaviour didn't happen in the first place.
		
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Well part of the problem with Bear may be that he has quite a 'pony' brain - designed to be VERY quick off the mark mentally, if not quite so much in a ridden sense.  Ponies are DEVILS for finding their own path through life...!!  I have found the pony mind-set to be really quite different to a 'horse' brain (which is probably more where Boggle's head is at by the sounds of it). In any case, it doesn't matter as you know Bear best and yes, he has learnt that he might be able to tank off in some situations; probably for both cheeky and confidence reasons.  I would in all honesty expect that he might do it again but you will be ready for him next time and can think of a strategy that you can deploy. I genuinely don't think smacking will make any positive difference at all tbh - I can't imagine that he is frightened of you, but it probably will piss him off more than anything and make him less likely to want to work with you.  Even if he is utterly WICKED, he probably doesn't realise how bad he is being either.  

If he is a naughty blighter  in hand I would suggest a long (12-14 ft) strong lead rope/rope halter that you might ride with under the bridle for a bit; it will give you tons more scope if you need to have him in hand.  Anyhow, you will be able to think of a way to deal with this and it doesn't sound like he has a long 'flight' away or one that is unstoppable.  Those are things to be grateful for!! 

It really won't be long before you look back at this and just wonder - ''Did he really used to do such daft things?'' !!


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## Michen (19 August 2020)

palo1 said:



			Well part of the problem with Bear may be that he has quite a 'pony' brain - designed to be VERY quick off the mark mentally, if not quite so much in a ridden sense.  Ponies are DEVILS for finding their own path through life...!!  I have found the pony mind-set to be really quite different to a 'horse' brain (which is probably more where Boggle's head is at by the sounds of it). In any case, it doesn't matter as you know Bear best and yes, he has learnt that he might be able to tank off in some situations; probably for both cheeky and confidence reasons.  I would in all honesty expect that he might do it again but you will be ready for him next time and can think of a strategy that you can deploy. I genuinely don't think smacking will make any positive difference at all tbh - I can't imagine that he is frightened of you, but it probably will piss him off more than anything and make him less likely to want to work with you.  Even if he is utterly WICKED, he probably doesn't realise how bad he is being either. 

If he is a naughty blighter  in hand I would suggest a long (12-14 ft) strong lead rope/rope halter that you might ride with under the bridle for a bit; it will give you tons more scope if you need to have him in hand.  Anyhow, you will be able to think of a way to deal with this and it doesn't sound like he has a long 'flight' away or one that is unstoppable.  Those are things to be grateful for!!

It really won't be long before you look back at this and just wonder - ''Did he really used to do such daft things?'' !! 

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Oh no he is perfect in hand now- this was back in March! Could lead him around with just a rope around his neck  I did tons of work with a parelli halter and a 14ft rope which he was in any time he was being led for about 3 months. Never needed it since  Unless I put it on under the bridle and attach reins to it


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## suebou (19 August 2020)

Michen said:



			A musing.. took both my boys for a hack this morning. Friend on Bear me on Bog. To get out hacking you go up a steep grassy track that runs between two fields. Recently there’s been a big coil of white tape left by the fence and most horses have had a look. Bear first saw it at the weekend and was in front of a big hack group. Grabbed the bit and span, got firm use of stick and leg, span again, got whacked (rightly or wrongly) and then went. Did the same again with friend on Monday but went 3rd time. Today however he massively escalated it, tanking off down the hill, spinning and even lifting his front feet off the ground for good measure. He absolutely would not go and friend getting worried. We swapped horses and i also found it was a real battle- I’m not a weak rider but Bear is immensely physically strong and really sets his neck against you. It was physically impossible to stop him spinning. No amount of stick and leg would drive him forward (and I had a stick in both hands!) Behaviour getting worse and worse and unpleasant on a sloppy steep track and Bear himself getting really upset.

So a change of tact, asking him to go past alongside Boggle and then slightly in front and then building it up (we must have done the loop about ten times) until he was going past it on his own happily enough. This was successful, horse went back to being reasonable and responded well to lots of praise and a softer approach.

Bear hasn’t in 6 months said “NO” like that to something he’s been worried about   He will usually always go second time. Made weirder by the fact he had been past it twice. In my mind the horse has to go however worried and that sort of behaviour isn’t acceptable and has to be worked through, but it was escalating so much the change of tact to a softer approach felt like the only thing to do.

Would you have done this or would you have absolutely insisted the horse goes past it as asked- in front of the other horse? Bearing in mind this is a usually very rational, reasonable 4yo but with a cheeky streak and will absolutely try it on if he thinks he can get away with it. Personally I would have insisted he went past on his own as asked in normal circumstances however much of a battle/escalation it took, but the steep slippery hill made it feel verging on dangerous hence trying the alternative approach.

I guess we all have our different ways but interested to hear what yours would have been- and what would you have done if you were on your own without a lead horse? 😀
		
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Absolutely Right, they must ALWAYS go forward when asked(obviously if safe) especially at 4. People not insisting on this is why there are 000’s of nappy, spooky horses with people going ‘ooh, he doesn’t like bins/ditches/drains/flowers whatever’
You can tell I am old and currently fixing a fat cob with no manners......apparently he’s sensitive!


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## IrishMilo (19 August 2020)

suebou said:



			Absolutely Right, they must ALWAYS go forward when asked(obviously if safe) especially at 4. People not insisting on this is why there are 000’s of nappy, spooky horses with people going ‘ooh, he doesn’t like bins/ditches/drains/flowers whatever’
You can tell I am old and currently fixing a fat cob with no manners......apparently he’s sensitive!
		
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There is a balance. How would you have dealt with Michen's situation given she admitted the bossy tactic actually made things worse? I've never seen a situation of a horse being scared where giving it a wallop did anything other than escalate the problem. I find if you sit quiet for a minute and let them look, they'll usually either chose to investigate it on their own accord, or walk past with no dramas, rather than pee off in the other direction.


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## Michen (19 August 2020)

IrishMilo said:



			There is a balance. How would you have dealt with Michen's situation given she admitted the bossy tactic actually made things worse? I've never seen a situation of a horse being scared where giving it a wallop did anything other than escalate the problem. I find if you sit quiet for a minute and let them look, they'll usually either chose to investigate it on their own accord, or walk past with no dramas, rather than pee off in the other direction.
		
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To clarify, he did get the chance to look and investigate every time, he was only sent forward back to where he was and reprimanded when he chose to spin and tank off.. as I said he didn’t need the forward aids to get him past it as such, he did that naturally (on the successful precious times) once the forward aids had been applied to put him back where we started and not half way down the hill!


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## SusieT (19 August 2020)

Pause and pat- by reaching straight for the stick/kick/force approach the third time he was anticpiating it and his adrenaline/stress levels went higher hence why he escalated his behaviour. 
Think stop, look, pat and then ask to go forwards calmly and consistantly, he will learn with time that going forwards is not stressful and easier. If beaten past everything (even if its only a couple of whacks) they learn to resist more strongly the first time.


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## suebou (19 August 2020)

IrishMilo said:



			There is a balance. How would you have dealt with Michen's situation given she admitted the bossy tactic actually made things worse? I've never seen a situation of a horse being scared where giving it a wallop did anything other than escalate the problem. I find if you sit quiet for a minute and let them look, they'll usually either chose to investigate it on their own accord, or walk past with no dramas, rather than pee off in the other direction.
		
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Yup, you’re probably right but he had been past it twice already. I’m really not as awful as the response sounds(I think!). Standing quietly is helpful but if the spook and run has happened sometimes you just have to reinforce forward as the option! I do get frustrated at endless owners who allow their horses to effectively dictate where and how they hack! I haven’t read all replies but Michen  sounds competent and sensible. 4/5 year olds, especially ponies are likely to be clever and need to understand where the straight and narrow is!


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## IrishMilo (19 August 2020)

Michen said:



			To clarify, he did get the chance to look and investigate every time, he was only sent forward back to where he was and reprimanded when he chose to spin and tank off.. as I said he didn’t need the forward aids to get him past it as such, he did that naturally (on the successful precious times) once the forward aids had been applied to put him back where we started and not half way down the hill!
		
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I was speaking in a general sense 🙂 

I can’t imagine you walloped him straight off the bat!


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## SOS (19 August 2020)

SusieT said:



			Pause and pat- by reaching straight for the stick/kick/force approach the third time he was anticpiating it and his adrenaline/stress levels went higher hence why he escalated his behaviour.
Think stop, look, pat and then ask to go forwards calmly and consistantly, he will learn with time that going forwards is not stressful and easier. If beaten past everything (even if its only a couple of whacks) they learn to resist more strongly the first time.
		
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This with bells on

My current horse I rode for a number of years for his previous owner. He was labelled as nappy and unable to hack alone. Over the years I learnt that he was quite the internal worrier and quite headshy/scared on the ground. Smacking him when he planted led to him spinning and taking offIf he planted to spook or nap I’d make him stand, give him a pat and make him chill for a minute. I’d then ask him to go forward. As long as he was making forward progress I stayed gentle. If he spun or tried to tank off, I’d turn him around and push him forward again. If that didn’t work I’d give a sharp smack behind the leg after I turned them to send him forward. I would not smack before he turned and only used it to send him forward. He now hacks alone with a confident rider.

I felt the message I was giving that way was clear. The horse was worried about an object or unconfident at being alone. Go forward with the rider and that’s okay, turn around and bugger off and the question will keep getting repeated to you. 

I wouldn’t say I’m too soft of a rider but I think people forget that their horse pausing/planting at an object is not necessarily the horse saying no. The horse is asking for some time to take the object in and for you to tell them what to do. Smacking them at that stage teaches them, if you’re scared il give you something to be more scared about.

Make the right thing easy and the wrong thing hard!


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## Michen (19 August 2020)

saddle over sofa said:



			This with bells on

My current horse I rode for a number of years for his previous owner. He was labelled as nappy and unable to hack alone. Over the years I learnt that he was quite the internal worrier and quite headshy/scared on the ground. Smacking him when he planted led to him spinning and taking offIf he planted to spook or nap I’d make him stand, give him a pat and make him chill for a minute. I’d then ask him to go forward. As long as he was making forward progress I stayed gentle. If he spun or tried to tank off, I’d turn him around and push him forward again. If that didn’t work I’d give a sharp smack behind the leg after I turned them to send him forward. I would not smack before he turned and only used it to send him forward. He now hacks alone with a confident rider.

I felt the message I was giving that way was clear. The horse was worried about an object or unconfident at being alone. Go forward with the rider and that’s okay, turn around and bugger off and the question will keep getting repeated to you.

I wouldn’t say I’m too soft of a rider but I think people forget that their horse pausing/planting at an object is not necessarily the horse saying no. The horse is asking for some time to take the object in and for you to tell them what to do. Smacking them at that stage teaches them, if you’re scared il give you something to be more scared about.

Make the right thing easy and the wrong thing hard!
		
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At the risk of repeating myself (sorry!). The horse was smacked for spinning and tanking to get him to go back to where he was. He was not smacked for not going forward. On the (successful attempts) to get him to go past it, there was no need to use any strong aid once he had got back in “position”- at that point he accepted it and walked on. So essentially I did exactly what you just described in your post that you did , bar I backed my leg aid up with a smack almost immediately because of the addition of the tanking and the lack of reaction from the leg. Had it just been a spin without taking the bit I probably would have just turned him back to where he was.


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## Annagain (19 August 2020)

I don’t think what you did was wrong as such, but I’m all for taking the easy option so if you have a Bog to show him things aren’t scary, why not make full use of him.


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## Michen (19 August 2020)

annagain said:



			I don’t think what you did was wrong as such, but I’m all for taking the easy option so if you have a Bog to show him things aren’t scary, why not make full use of him.
		
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Well usually Bog is too much of rogue himself to be considered a lead horse  he’d be egging him on!


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## Michen (21 August 2020)

Had to share these tonight. This is “Michen”. My first horse that I truly owned, I did many a day pot washing to pay for his rugs and livery from the age of 13! I went to university very young (16) and sold him to the Orkney islands where he’s been with the same lovely owner for 12 years. I very nearly didn’t go and stayed on unnecessarily at school just so I could keep him and was close to buying him back five years later. He was the most difficult, frustrating horse you could imagine. Looking back and maybe someone will see it in the photos, I’m convinced he had some standie in him as he had this insane trot that was almost impossible to ride. I think he had spent his younger years being driven.

I didn’t get the chance to do pony club etc as no transport so he never left the yard until the day I sold him, he was a grumpy bugger, stubborn and tricky to ride but so beautiful (all 14.2hh) of him and he kept me smiling throughout the usual teenage dramas. I see a lot of Boggleism in him when I look at these photos.

A great old friend who was sadly lost to colic tonight. We never forget the first ones we truly love that get us hooked on horses for life.


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## Roxylola (21 August 2020)

Oh michen, so sorry, he looks and sounds fabulous ❤


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## Sam_J (21 August 2020)

Beautiful horse, I see the resemblance to Boggle!  Sorry for your loss x


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## Michen (21 August 2020)

There is isn’t there! Thanks both. Very much his owners loss, she was fantastic with him, I went to visit him a few years after I sold him and he wouldn’t come near me (his default to strangers!), but you can’t help but feel sad even when it’s been such a long time. I really have lots of my current life to thank him for


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## Mule (21 August 2020)

There's definitely a boggle look there.He was  very handsome and it sounds like he had a great life x


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## D66 (21 August 2020)

Sad news for you.


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## Errin Paddywack (21 August 2020)

If you had just shown us the picture and not told us who he was I would have assumed Boggle.  You really seem to have a theme going with these bay horses.  Lovely pony, so sad to hear he has passed away.


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## Michen (22 August 2020)

Well I had some cheer from Boggle today, he feels so much better. Not chucking me to one side at all anymore from the go (usually sort of walks or off throughout the hack). Vet on Tuesday to inject with steroids and we will work him up before but if he’s sound after flexion or it’s very very minimal (1/10) I’d be inclined to not jab the hocks and check again in a few more weeks.


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## alexomahony (26 August 2020)

Sorry to hear about your old pony Michen - he was stunning and obviously started a life long love affair with pretty bay ponies! <3 

Also great news about Bog!

Bear sounds very much like your average Connemara and very much like mine! He is 15, yet his first option with anything spooky is still to spin and bog off - I generally deal with it by being ready for it at all times (calves on!) and always being one step ahead, watch his ears. This means I can 'catch him' with my legs in the first step of the spin and not let him go any further. Sometimes he gets a tap on the shoulder to remind him that I'm in charge and that it's ok (he is truly a follower and likes to be told what to do). It means he is confident that I've 'got his back' and then tends to get much braver - the more he is allowed to react, the more he will panic himself and the behavior will escalate, if I catch him in the first few steps, then usually he will calm down and do as asked  x


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## Laurac13 (26 August 2020)

What a lovely chap he was RIP Michen x


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## Michen (26 August 2020)

alexomahony said:



			Sorry to hear about your old pony Michen - he was stunning and obviously started a life long love affair with pretty bay ponies! <3 

Also great news about Bog!

Bear sounds very much like your average Connemara and very much like mine! He is 15, yet his first option with anything spooky is still to spin and bog off - I generally deal with it by being ready for it at all times (calves on!) and always being one step ahead, watch his ears. This means I can 'catch him' with my legs in the first step of the spin and not let him go any further. Sometimes he gets a tap on the shoulder to remind him that I'm in charge and that it's ok (he is truly a follower and likes to be told what to do). It means he is confident that I've 'got his back' and then tends to get much braver - the more he is allowed to react, the more he will panic himself and the behavior will escalate, if I catch him in the first few steps, then usually he will calm down and do as asked  x
		
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Thanks! I don’t feel it’s a behaviour to accept, Boggle had a very quick and viscous spin as a 5/6 year old and it was not a habit I wanted to continue , obviously you can’t always prevent it 100% but consistent riding and making it very clear that spinning was not an acceptable form of behaviour and I’d say he has done it a handful of times as a 7/8 year old. Doesn’t mean he doesn’t teleport to the side when he deems necessary though  But a spin is not in his trick book anymore. I don’t need to ride through it because he won’t even try it. Same with bucking, exploding, etc... most of the time!

To me it’s behaviour to be addressed and hopefully ironed out as a habit not just accepted as a connemara pony trait. And to be fair to Bear- I can probably count on one hand the number of times he’s done it too


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## Michen (26 August 2020)

Bear and hounds today. Will put a proper post up but very, very proud and so is he!


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## ycbm (26 August 2020)

SusieT said:



			Pause and pat- .
		
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Pause maybe, pat no way. It's unwise to reassure a horse for being afraid because what we do to reassure  (pat,  say good boy) is the same as what we do to reward (pat,  say good boy)  and the horse can't tell it's being reassured but thinks it's being told that it has produced the right behaviour by being scared. 
.


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## Wheels (26 August 2020)

ycbm said:



			Pause maybe, pat no way. It's unwise to reassure a horse for being afraid because what we do to reassure  (pat,  say good boy) is the same as what we do to reward (pat,  say good boy)  and the horse can't tell it's being reassured but thinks it's being told that it has produced the right behaviour by being scared. 
.
		
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I know what you are getting at but being scared is an automatic reaction, the horse hasn't produced that as a behaviour, it is an emotion that can then go on to cause the unwanted behaviour.  A pat or scratch or even treat (for some horses) at the right time can go a long way.  Would I reward the horse for turning around and buggering off? Nope but I would for facing up to / walking towards / sniffing the object it had originally tried to get away from.


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## Michen (26 August 2020)

Could Bear look any cuter in the first pic?

Ah well I’m really really proud. This is not how I intended to intro Bear to hounds but I’m on leave this week and couldn’t make it work in time to utilise the holiday with a quieter option whereby it would just involve a few of the hunt and the hounds on private exercise. 


This was 25-30 horses with the bloodhounds and started in a stubble field (eek!). Bear hasn’t even been to a show he’s only done an arena hire and boxed for a hack! Anyway, I needed to get him out and figured if I kept to the front it wouldn’t feel like such a big group, so that’s what we did- trundled off on our own to this morning exercise meet and had such a great time. He was snorty and fizzy but very well behaved, I kept a super relaxed seat with him including reins and lots of pats at the beginning to reassure him as he grew in confidence (which took all of 5 minutes). He lifted his bottom once out of frustration when it all got a bit bunched up stopping on a road, was gently but firmly corrected (IMO it’s imperative you teach horses from the go that it’s not acceptable behaviour out hunting- so many accidents from bucking horses and people being too close), listened and was just a total pleasure from start to finish- but also really fun, bouncy and forward. 


He will go on quieter exercise on sat, then again twice next week which perhaps seems full on but essential not to get complacent with a youngun and get them finding it as boring as possible as soon as possible. Then I’ll need to find some actual quiet autumn hunting for him to do some standing around- the only downfall of hound exercise is that it doesn’t teach them to stand but I think this can sometimes be more favourable the first few times anyway. And that will be it! The start of making Bear into a hunter for next season anyway.. if he’s not sold..

And let’s face it we all know he bloody won’t be


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## Roxylola (26 August 2020)

He looks gorgeous. Let's face it, he secured his place when he mated up with Bog, hes Bog's pony now


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## Berpisc (26 August 2020)

Sorry to hear about your old pony, I think Bear is very lucky to have you starting him off on his adventures.


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## Jeni the dragon (26 August 2020)

You both look like you're having a fabulous time!


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## Red-1 (26 August 2020)

I am sorry about your old pony, but what a fabulous Bear update!


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## Michen (26 August 2020)

Red-1 said:



			I am sorry about your old pony, but what a fabulous Bear update!
		
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Thank you! And your thoughts on him when he was thrown into the mix as a potential purchase mattered so even better to hear 😁


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## Michen (26 August 2020)

Roxylola said:



			He looks gorgeous. Let's face it, he secured his place when he mated up with Bog, hes Bog's pony now
		
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Poor Bog I didn’t even mention him. He did have his hocks jabbed in the end  to make matters worse he also had a lump that has been on his neck since it appeared after a vaccine removed. Tiny thing, smaller than a pea but he had started shaking his head when it was pressed so we decided to remove.  


So not only did he get hock jabs he also now has stitches and a slightly horrid wound  AND he had to watch Bear arrive back from hound exercise. 


He pinned his ears back at me and he’s never done that (to me!)


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## Roxylola (26 August 2020)

Oh, poor Bog. That's a Bad Day. Sending get well vibez


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## [59668] (26 August 2020)

Michen said:



			A musing.. took both my boys for a hack this morning. Friend on Bear me on Bog. To get out hacking you go up a steep grassy track that runs between two fields. Recently there’s been a big coil of white tape left by the fence and most horses have had a look. Bear first saw it at the weekend and was in front of a big hack group. Grabbed the bit and span, got firm use of stick and leg, span again, got whacked (rightly or wrongly) and then went. Did the same again with friend on Monday but went 3rd time. Today however he massively escalated it, tanking off down the hill, spinning and even lifting his front feet off the ground for good measure. He absolutely would not go and friend getting worried. We swapped horses and i also found it was a real battle- I’m not a weak rider but Bear is immensely physically strong and really sets his neck against you. It was physically impossible to stop him spinning. No amount of stick and leg would drive him forward (and I had a stick in both hands!) Behaviour getting worse and worse and unpleasant on a sloppy steep track and Bear himself getting really upset.

So a change of tact, asking him to go past alongside Boggle and then slightly in front and then building it up (we must have done the loop about ten times) until he was going past it on his own happily enough. This was successful, horse went back to being reasonable and responded well to lots of praise and a softer approach.

Bear hasn’t in 6 months said “NO” like that to something he’s been worried about   He will usually always go second time. Made weirder by the fact he had been past it twice. In my mind the horse has to go however worried and that sort of behaviour isn’t acceptable and has to be worked through, but it was escalating so much the change of tact to a softer approach felt like the only thing to do.

Would you have done this or would you have absolutely insisted the horse goes past it as asked- in front of the other horse? Bearing in mind this is a usually very rational, reasonable 4yo but with a cheeky streak and will absolutely try it on if he thinks he can get away with it. Personally I would have insisted he went past on his own as asked in normal circumstances however much of a battle/escalation it took, but the steep slippery hill made it feel verging on dangerous hence trying the alternative approach.

I guess we all have our different ways but interested to hear what yours would have been- and what would you have done if you were on your own without a lead horse? 😀
		
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Hmm getting the shit kicked out of you and whacked for being worried about something when you are a baby that hasnt seen the world. I wonder why his reactions escalated?!
Poor mite.


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## Michen (26 August 2020)

[59668] said:



			Hmm getting the shit kicked out of you and whacked for being worried about something when you are a baby that hasnt seen the world. I wonder why his reactions escalated?!
Poor mite.
		
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Ofgs 😂😂. Poor mite indeed, maybe someone should rescue him!


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## [59668] (26 August 2020)

Michen said:



			Ofgs 😂😂. Poor mite indeed, maybe someone should rescue him!
		
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Yes. Poor mite. He saw something he didnt like. He was kicked and smacked by your own admission. He told you he didnt like it more strongly. So you kicked him and whacked him (your own words) The third time you decided you needed 2 sticks to hit him more effectively. Your horse is 4 years old. I've enjoyed following your journey up till now. This shocked me from you.
If most other people or a new poster put up a post like this they would be jumped on immediately.
Can you not hear how awful this all sounds? Would you beat and whack a dog? A cat? Get another stick to beat it harder and more effectively? In what world does hitting an animal make effective training?


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## Michen (26 August 2020)

[59668] said:



			Yes. Poor mite. He saw something he didnt like. He was kicked and smacked by your own admission. He told you he didnt like it more strongly. So you kicked him and whacked him. The third time you decided you needed 2 sticks to hit him more effectively. Your horse is 4 years old. I've enjoyed following your journey up till now. This shocked me from you. 
If most other people or a new poster put up a post like this they would be jumped on immediately. 
Can you not hear how awful this all sounds? Would you beat and whack a dog? A cat? Get another stick to beat it harder and more effectively? In what world does hitting an animal make effective training?
		
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I’m sorry but I disagree. The horse was reprimanded for spinning and tanking. IMO at the time it was nappy, evasive behaviour and it needed nipping in the bud. He was then left to have a look, and make the decision to go past the first time. 

Now even if my actions were totally wrong and I don’t actually think they entirely were on that occasion but a sequence of events with another rider etc blurred things, then poor mite indeed to have an owner that thought about it, changed tact and then got opinions from other people to see what she could do better this time. 

And yes- I believe there’s a time and a place for using a stick (or even two, brilliant for some situations if you need to keep a horse straight but keep both hands on the reins- if you’ve ever tried it you’d know you can only get a soft flick if you are holding the reins too- and much better than kicking IMO!) on half a tonne of animal to correct a potentially dangerous behaviour, get some forward movement, whatever... shoot me now 🙄.


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## ycbm (26 August 2020)

Michen said:



			Could Bear look any cuter in the first pic?

Ah well I’m really really proud. This is not how I intended to intro Bear to hounds but I’m on leave this week and couldn’t make it work in time to utilise the holiday with a quieter option whereby it would just involve a few of the hunt and the hounds on private exercise.


This was 25-30 horses with the bloodhounds and started in a stubble field (eek!). Bear hasn’t even been to a show he’s only done an arena hire and boxed for a hack! Anyway, I needed to get him out and figured if I kept to the front it wouldn’t feel like such a big group, so that’s what we did- trundled off on our own to this morning exercise meet and had such a great time. He was snorty and fizzy but very well behaved, I kept a super relaxed seat with him including reins and lots of pats at the beginning to reassure him as he grew in confidence (which took all of 5 minutes). He lifted his bottom once out of frustration when it all got a bit bunched up stopping on a road, was gently but firmly corrected (IMO it’s imperative you teach horses from the go that it’s not acceptable behaviour out hunting- so many accidents from bucking horses and people being too close), listened and was just a total pleasure from start to finish- but also really fun, bouncy and forward.


He will go on quieter exercise on sat, then again twice next week which perhaps seems full on but essential not to get complacent with a youngun and get them finding it as boring as possible as soon as possible. Then I’ll need to find some actual quiet autumn hunting for him to do some standing around- the only downfall of hound exercise is that it doesn’t teach them to stand but I think this can sometimes be more favourable the first few times anyway. And that will be it! The start of making Bear into a hunter for next season anyway.. if he’s not sold..

And let’s face it we all know he bloody won’t be 

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I am SO jealous! 
.


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## Laurac13 (26 August 2020)

Bless Bear what a good boy 👏


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## IrishMilo (27 August 2020)

What injections did you decide to go for in the end @Michen? 

Re. the patting thing - different strokes for different folks and all that but I don't ascribe the whole 'Never pat them when they're scared as it rewards them' approach - my horse is 1000x easier to manage in a situation where he's worried with a pat and a 'good boy, go on' than when I'm stoic. He associates my soft voice and a pat with something nice so if he sees something he doesn't like the look of, he knows a pat means all is fine!

I frankly don't think they're smart enough to think 'OK well she was firm with me going past it but now that I am I get a pat'.


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## Regandal (27 August 2020)

Years ago I read a snippet from Sylvia Loch, she recommended riding with your little fingers touching the horse if it was worried about something. It does work, at least it did on my ones.


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## J&S (27 August 2020)

deleted


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## Ceriann (27 August 2020)

Regandal said:



			Years ago I read a snippet from Sylvia Loch, she recommended riding with your little fingers touching the horse if it was worried about something. It does work, at least it did on my ones.
		
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Mine is a pretty sensible to hack - gets everything she sees and only really reacts to new things in wrong places (as she sees it).  If it worries her she’ll stop - normally a quiet sit as she works it out is all thats needed but if not a wither scratch helps.  I don’t see it as reinforcing fear but I do see it depends on the horse.


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## Annagain (27 August 2020)

As Charlie and I are getting used to each other I'm learning all over again about reassuring a horse (Archie never needed it!) Three things that work for him - all together ideally - are increasing the leg pressure (more of a hug than kicking him) just to say, yes I do want you do go past that and yes I'm happy about it, talking to him - the daft creature really seems to like my voice, and lots of praise when he's done it in the form of scratches, pats and my voice. He loves to be told he's a good boy, you can literally feel him swell with pride!


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## Michen (27 August 2020)

IrishMilo said:



			What injections did you decide to go for in the end @Michen? 

Re. the patting thing - different strokes for different folks and all that but I don't ascribe the whole 'Never pat them when they're scared as it rewards them' approach - my horse is 1000x easier to manage in a situation where he's worried with a pat and a 'good boy, go on' than when I'm stoic. He associates my soft voice and a pat with something nice so if he sees something he doesn't like the look of, he knows a pat means all is fine!

I frankly don't think they're smart enough to think 'OK well she was firm with me going past it but now that I am I get a pat'.
		
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Just steroids on their own. Reassess in 2 weeks and see where we are.


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## scats (27 August 2020)

I think Bear might actually be one of my favourite forum ponies!


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## Michen (27 August 2020)

scats said:



			I think Bear might actually be one of my favourite forum ponies!
		
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😳 What about Bog!!


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## scats (27 August 2020)

Michen said:



			😳 What about Bog!!
		
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Ah I do love Bog too.


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## Michen (29 August 2020)

Good boy Bear.. one more hound exercise with good behaviour and we can call that a success and move on to quiet autumn hunting! This horse is being so fun, buzzy and forward and not too keen on standing early on (gets a little bouncy in front!) but he had so much to deal with today with a very full on hound exercise, canter, open spaces and standing half way whilst we all had a very strong drink! He also unloaded at my friends yard, hung around quietly for a chat and reloaded and went home all quietly and easily. Such a sensible chap and he really does have a new air of confidence about him now. 

I was unsure which way it would go with Bear, he really was not easy early on and I never really posted about it thoroughly, but I think he’s figured out the key to a long term home is hunting 

It’s also nice to ride a horse which actually tires slightly, unlike Boggle who would go until he dropped. 

A few videos!


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## Michen (5 September 2020)

Bear continuing to learn his job this morning ❤️. Very proud, he was fizzy but well behaved. Left the meet after an hour and hacked back to trailer on his own leaving the entire field of horses in the stubble field.


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## J&S (5 September 2020)

That is a beautiful photograph.  It has a timeless feel to it.


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## Michen (5 September 2020)

J&S said:



			That is a beautiful photograph.  It has a timeless feel to it.
		
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Yes! Shame my arm is stuck out. Think I was patting him!


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## Bernster (5 September 2020)

Lovely. You do have some shiny horses. And you clearly have a type 😀


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## Ceriann (5 September 2020)

He is very lovely.  I have my first connie cross (bay) - I’m sold too!


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## Michen (12 September 2020)

Ahhh Bear you are just so cool. There are so many “tests” this horse is just breezing through. Peeling off from the meet alone, stay walking on a long rein whilst the meet gallops off around a corner, let your mate reverse off the trailer whilst we drop him off.

And the best bit- have a cheek piece snap and be hunted with the bit only attached on one side. We  later manage to fashion one with a flash but frankly it couldn’t have mattered less if we had a solution or not.

What an earth am I going to do long term with two horses, because I sure as hell don’t think I can ever sell this one. He’s not “special” and one of a kind  like Bog but he’s just so biddable and easy (now) whilst still being fun and cheeky.

Hunting is turning him into something special in his own right though 😍


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## Lindylouanne (12 September 2020)

Well it’s pretty obvious. Keep him 🤣


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## ycbm (12 September 2020)

Michen said:



			Ahhh Bear you are just so cool. There are so many “tests” this horse is just breezing through. Peeling off from the meet alone, stay walking on a long rein whilst the meet gallops off around a corner, let your mate reverse off the trailer whilst we drop him off.

And the best bit- have a cheek piece snap and be hunted with the bit only attached on one side. We  later manage to fashion one with a flash but frankly it couldn’t have mattered less if we had a solution or not.

What an earth am I going to do long term with two horses, because I sure as hell don’t think I can ever sell this one. He’s not “special” and one of a kind  like Bog but he’s just so biddable and easy (now) whilst still being fun and cheeky.

Hunting is turning him into something special in his own right though 😍


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He's now worth £8k, does that change your mind 🤣 ?


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## Lindylouanne (12 September 2020)

ycbm said:



			He's now worth £8k, does that change your mind 🤣 ?
		
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Stop putting silly ideas in her head 🤣


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## Jayzee (12 September 2020)

What a dude! Love following his progress


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## scats (12 September 2020)

I love him so much!  Please keep him so we can follow his journey through life! He’s such a dude.


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## RHM (12 September 2020)

He is such a keeper!


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## ElleSkywalker (12 September 2020)

Like he was ever going anywhere 😁


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## Michen (12 September 2020)

Nope 8k not enough to consider selling!! I guess I’ll just have to see how it goes, I’ve got a brilliant sharer who rides them both so it should be doable long term. Worst case Bear gets full loaned out at some point.

He may still hit the Kevin stage yet anyway and go to the highest bidder

FGS, the whole point was to buy a horse that I didn’t want to keep as a stop gap and to sell. Working out well isn’t it 😂


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## ownedbyaconnie (12 September 2020)

Both ponies are lovely Michen and you are clearly doing a fab job!

as an aside, where is your tweed jacket from? I really like it 😂


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## Michen (12 September 2020)

ownedbyaconnie said:



			Both ponies are lovely Michen and you are clearly doing a fab job!

as an aside, where is your tweed jacket from? I really like it 😂
		
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Ha funny story that. It’s my friends as are the boots and the breeches are someone else’s too because I was late, without half my stuff and generally useless. Her jacket is the same as mine though it’s a shires huntingdon - not sure they do that model anymore as think it got replaced by something else. Should be someon eBay though! They come up big, in a 10 in everything but this is a 34 which I think is poss more an 8 on paper.


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## Laurac13 (12 September 2020)

What a dude 👍 glad your both having a great time and bogs got a best buddy too 😄


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## ownedbyaconnie (12 September 2020)

Michen said:



			Ha funny story that. It’s my friends as are the boots and the breeches are someone else’s too because I was late, without half my stuff and generally useless. Her jacket is the same as mine though it’s a shires huntingdon - not sure they do that model anymore as think it got replaced by something else. Should be someon eBay though! They come up big, in a 10 in everything but this is a 34 which I think is poss more an 8 on paper.
		
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Ah thank you! I have a shires jacket and agree they definitely come up big! Will have a search, thank you!


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## Caol Ila (12 September 2020)

Michen said:



			Nope 8k not enough to consider selling!! I guess I’ll just have to see how it goes, I’ve got a brilliant sharer who rides them both so it should be doable long term. Worst case Bear gets full loaned out at some point.

He may still hit the Kevin stage yet anyway and go to the highest bidder

FGS, the whole point was to buy a horse that I didn’t want to keep as a stop gap and to sell. Working out well isn’t it 😂
		
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I was in the same boat with my project, who matured into an awesome, fun little horse. But alas, I was moving from Colorado to the UK and only had a plane ticket for one horse. I don't know if I could have sold him if I'd stayed put.


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## Michen (13 September 2020)

Caol Ila said:



			I was in the same boat with my project, who matured into an awesome, fun little horse. But alas, I was moving from Colorado to the UK and only had a plane ticket for one horse. I don't know if I could have sold him if I'd stayed put.
		
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Its tricky because I do prefer having one horse to pile all my attention on. It’s fine currently because there’s never really a problem choosing which horse to ride etc as both are doing totally different things. But I have ever intention of bringing Bog back to an active, fun life next year and I guess keeping two properly fit and doing stuff may be tricky.

As long as my lovely friend/sharer stays around this shouldn’t be a problem though. And I guess worst case I can pay for someone to ride one, but it is definitely an extravagance having two financially that I hadn’t intended on long term. It will restrict whether I can do other things outside of horses a bit, I guess I’ll just have to work our what matters most.


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## tristar (13 September 2020)

what lovely photos,   two happy faces, sometimes horses come in two`s!


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## CanteringCarrot (13 September 2020)

I'd think you'd have no problem finding a good sharer if your current one were unable to continue. He's a fabulous little horse.


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## HufflyPuffly (13 September 2020)

Michen said:



			Ha funny story that. It’s my friends as are the boots and the breeches are someone else’s too because I was late, without half my stuff and generally useless. Her jacket is the same as mine though it’s a shires huntingdon - not sure they do that model anymore as think it got replaced by something else. Should be someon eBay though! They come up big, in a 10 in everything but this is a 34 which I think is poss more an 8 on paper.
		
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Could I jump in and ask what make the breeches are too, they look lovely!

Bear is super cool, and everyone needs two horses so you’ve always got a spare 😜.


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## Michen (13 September 2020)

CanteringCarrot said:



			I'd think you'd have no problem finding a good sharer if your current one were unable to continue. He's a fabulous little horse.
		
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That’s a good point. I guess I’d just struggle to find one I trust as much. When I went travelling last year she took both Boggle and the lorry home to Cheshire for Christmas and NY and I didn’t even feel remotely worried- that’s how great she is! But anyway hopefully she will want to continue riding the boys but you never know what curveballs live throws I guess!


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## Michen (13 September 2020)

HufflyPuffly said:



			Could I jump in and ask what make the breeches are too, they look lovely!

Bear is super cool, and everyone needs two horses so you’ve always got a spare 😜.
		
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They are Dublin’s


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## IamMe (13 September 2020)

Bogs lovely, but Bear is totally my kinda boy. I have a Connie x Tb who is Boggle type build and a Connie x Welsh D who is Bear build. Having one of each type means you get the best of both worlds ❤️


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## Michen (14 September 2020)

How Bog treats his pet pony Bear. Poor Bear never even flicks an ear back 🙈


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## SEL (14 September 2020)

They really are a matchy, matchy pair!

We need you and your sharer up on both in complete matching sets please


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## Michen (14 September 2020)

SEL said:



			They really are a matchy, matchy pair!

We need you and your sharer up on both in complete matching sets please 

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I'm aiming for Bear's first XC competition to be a pairs next May- with Boggle of course


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## Michen (25 September 2020)

Not much to report from BogBear land. I took Bear to the cotswolds last weekend and he was fantastic. It shows just how far he's come that he went to a new yard for a few nights and wasn't remotely fussed. A far cry from how upsetting he found the move from Ireland to England. He was fantastic out hacking, led the way, stood around whilst we got lost, went to the pub and was just generally easy and calm but fun in every way. Then he got choke two days later which was a bit traumatic! All fine now though.

I'm afraid there won't be much in the way of competition updates, I haven't been schooling him at all as there will be plenty of time for that when the clocks change. So he's just been hacking, hunting and generally enjoying life in straight lines and various paces.

Bog feels good, he's bouncing around like a little ball of adrenalin, despite being obviously unfit. I think he thinks its hunting soon 

A few pics, they decided to share stables tonight (was trying to rug one whilst holding the other outide!


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## scats (25 September 2020)

I just love Bear!!  The holiday sounds fab!


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## Michen (25 September 2020)

scats said:



			I just love Bear!!  The holiday sounds fab!
		
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Me too he’s so straightforward (now... he really wasn’t at first 😳). 

As much as I adore every inch of Bog I’m so glad Bear is a bit more... relaxing. I’m not sure I could cope with two of the same 😂


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## NinjaPony (25 September 2020)

Might as well embrace the two pony lifestyle as it seems Bear is here to stay! I’ve been a two pony owner for over 9 years and it’s not an accident that I have one neurotic hothead, and one chilled out straightforward boy. It works well- no one else would put up with my Welsh’s ‘needs’ or be so amenable about fitting into his routine! Bear is exactly the kind of Connie I like best, but I do understand the undying devotion to a demanding darling! That’s why you have one of each!


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## Michen (7 October 2020)

Bloody horses. Both feel great in themselves but Bear has been drinking more than normal and bloods have snowed slightly raised liver enzymes. He’s having another test today and then a scan and biopsy potentially. Vet not too concerned and says carry on as normal as he’s totally fine in himself but still- always a bit worrying!

Hopefully we will get to the bottom of it. A little video from this morning, I wished I was on Bear when I saw that lot coming down the road (friend on Bear filming). I was expecting to be teleported into the middle of the field by Bog but it seems he’s finally growing up. Also been doing lots of riding and leading and they’ve been great, in fact Bog is the better behaved as Bear just tries to nip him!!!


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## Annagain (7 October 2020)

I could never have them in matching rugs! I can tell them apart when I can see their bodies but if it's just heads I'd be struggling - Bear on the right? Slightly wider, cuter face? Bog is, of course, gorgeous too but I'd call him handsome rather than cute.


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## Michen (7 October 2020)

annagain said:



			I could never have them in matching rugs! I can tell them apart when I can see their bodies but if it's just heads I'd be struggling - Bear on the right? Slightly wider, cuter face? Bog is, of course, gorgeous too but I'd call him handsome rather than cute.
		
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Hehe no Bog is on the right!!  He's got the more dishy face!


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## alexomahony (7 October 2020)

I bloody love this pair  Hope bloods show up nothing too sinister in Bear! xx


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## Annagain (7 October 2020)

Michen said:



			Hehe no Bog is on the right!!  He's got the more dishy face!
		
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See, this is why I couldn't have the matching rugs!


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## SEL (7 October 2020)

I knew you'd have to go all out matchy matchy at somepoint  Rugs are a good start.

Might be worth going down the milk thistle route before a biopsy. Took my mare about 9 months to get her liver enzymes back down to normal after what we think was a bad batch of hay.


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## Pippity (7 October 2020)

There are times when I struggle to tell my horse from another cob on the yard - and mine's got roaning, a different-shaped blaze, and is a different sex! Bog and Bear would have to live in different-coloured headcollars if they were mine.


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## Michen (7 October 2020)

SEL said:



			I knew you'd have to go all out matchy matchy at somepoint  Rugs are a good start.

Might be worth going down the milk thistle route before a biopsy. Took my mare about 9 months to get her liver enzymes back down to normal after what we think was a bad batch of hay.
		
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yep I’m in two minds. The biopsy tbf seems very simple and we wouldn’t be considering it if it wasn’t for the drinking as well as the raised enzymes. We are considering treating for liver fluke given he came from Ireland but apparently the normal drug is very resistant to Irish liver fluke and the alternative can have some nasty side effects. Fecal test is often inaccurate though we will so that too just in case we get a clear result. Doesn’t rule it out though if it’s negative.


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## Michen (7 October 2020)

annagain said:



			See, this is why I couldn't have the matching rugs!
		
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tbh it really upsets me that one rug has the reflective strip and the other doesn’t 🙈


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## Lindylouanne (7 October 2020)

Michen said:



			tbh it really upsets me that one rug has the reflective strip and the other doesn’t 🙈
		
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My two have exactly the same matching rugs even down to go the reflective stripe on one and not on the other but given Bailey is a dun Connie and DP a brown WB I don’t have any issues telling them apart 😁. Michen you have inspired me with Bog and Bear and I now ride and lead three times a week. B has just been diagnosed with hock arthritis and vet wants him to do something every day. First Cartrophen injection yesterday, another three to go.

With the Liver enzymes being higher than you would like try Science Supplements LiverAid. DP is EMS and it has helped control his symptoms which are attributed to liver overload. It has Milk Thistle in it but as with all things David Marlin it’s been thoroughly researched and isn’t a crock of poo.


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## Michen (7 October 2020)

Lindylouanne said:



			My two have exactly the same matching rugs even down to go the reflective stripe on one and not on the other but given Bailey is a dun Connie and DP a brown WB I don’t have any issues telling them apart 😁. Michen you have inspired me with Bog and Bear and I now ride and lead three times a week. B has just been diagnosed with hock arthritis and vet wants him to do something every day. First Cartrophen injection yesterday, another three to go.

With the Liver enzymes being higher than you would like try Science Supplements LiverAid. DP is EMS and it has helped control his symptoms which are attributed to liver overload. It has Milk Thistle in it but as with all things David Marlin it’s been thoroughly researched and isn’t a crock of poo.
		
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Omg what size do you want to swap one 😂 they don’t sell that rhino anymore!

thanks I’ll look that up. Hope your boy is ok!


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## Lindylouanne (7 October 2020)

Both 6ft but B really needs a 5ft 9. You might find one at Hope Valley.


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## ycbm (7 October 2020)

Michen said:



			Bloody horses. Both feel great in themselves but Bear has been drinking more than normal and bloods have snowed slightly raised liver enzymes. He’s having another test today and then a scan and biopsy potentially. Vet not too concerned and says carry on as normal as he’s totally fine in himself but still- always a bit worrying!

Hopefully we will get to the bottom of it. A little video from this morning, I wished I was on Bear when I saw that lot coming down the road (friend on Bear filming). I was expecting to be teleported into the middle of the field by Bog but it seems he’s finally growing up. Also been doing lots of riding and leading and they’ve been great, in fact Bog is the better behaved as Bear just tries to nip him!!!






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Bloody hell M , did you do something dreadful in a previous life to deserve all this shit in one year?  Fingers crossed Bear is OK.
.


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## Michen (7 October 2020)

ycbm said:



			Bloody hell M , did you do something dreadful in a previous life to deserve all this shit in one year?  Fingers crossed Bear is OK.
.
		
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Must have!


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## SatansLittleHelper (7 October 2020)

Awww I hope it's nothing too bothersome for Bear (or you..!!!)
They both look fab 😍


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## Red-1 (7 October 2020)

Your trip away looks fabulous, a really handsome couple.


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## Michen (7 October 2020)

Ah well Bears liver results have headed back to normal, still a bit out of range but very slight. Awaiting antibody and fecal liver fluke test. Still doesn’t explain the drinking so will see what comes back and then scan if he’s still at it.

Vet happy though so we will continue as normal for now!


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## LouisCat (7 October 2020)

Michen said:



			Ah well Bears liver results have headed back to normal, still a bit out of range but very slight. Awaiting antibody and fecal liver fluke test. Still doesn’t explain the drinking so will see what comes back and then scan if he’s still at it.

Vet happy though so we will continue as normal for now!
		
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Have they checked for kidney infection? We had one drinking excessively and it was caused by an infection


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## Michen (7 October 2020)

LouisCat said:



			Have they checked for kidney infection? We had one drinking excessively and it was caused by an infection
		
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I assume so, a full blood panel was run. Next step is to scan inc kidneys I believe (maybe I’m wrong on that though!) if we don’t get anything conclusive from the liver fluke test


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## chaps89 (7 October 2020)

Mine are both drinking alot lately, my mum said hers were too (2 or 3 hours away from me) we were both surprised given how wet it is currently but as all 5 ponies between us seem otherwise well and healthy we're just keeping an eye.
Hopefully it isn't anything sinister for Bear.


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## Boulty (7 October 2020)

Michen said:



			yep I’m in two minds. The biopsy tbf seems very simple and we wouldn’t be considering it if it wasn’t for the drinking as well as the raised enzymes. We are considering treating for liver fluke given he came from Ireland but apparently the normal drug is very resistant to Irish liver fluke and the alternative can have some nasty side effects. Fecal test is often inaccurate though we will so that too just in case we get a clear result. Doesn’t rule it out though if it’s negative.
		
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If you're thinking fluke Liverpool do an ELISA test that is more accurate in horses than the fecal test (they only shed low amounts of eggs & only at certain times of year). If you contact them they'll send you the info to forward to your vet.  That's what I did when the Welsh one had raised liver enzymes & I wanted to rule it out as grazing had flooded a few times / was by a river & had been cross grazed with cattle & sheep at various times as well.

Edit: just seen you mention an antibody test so assume it's probably the same one. I only mentioned as my vets at the time had never heard of the test until I told them I wanted it & sent them the lab forms (Pushy? Moi?)


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## Michen (8 October 2020)

Boulty said:



			If you're thinking fluke Liverpool do an ELISA test that is more accurate in horses than the fecal test (they only shed low amounts of eggs & only at certain times of year). If you contact them they'll send you the info to forward to your vet.  That's what I did when the Welsh one had raised liver enzymes & I wanted to rule it out as grazing had flooded a few times / was by a river & had been cross grazed with cattle & sheep at various times as well.

Edit: just seen you mention an antibody test so assume it's probably the same one. I only mentioned as my vets at the time had never heard of the test until I told them I wanted it & sent them the lab forms (Pushy? Moi?)
		
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Yes believe this is what my vet has already done- he's on it- super vet


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## Michen (23 October 2020)

Photo influx! My friends and I had a weekends riding planned on the edge of the Cotswolds (second mini break of the month!), but a horse couldn't go, so a last minute decision was made to bring a Boggle stand in. I was a bit apprehensive as he would have to peel off to go home early on the long hack and obviously we are only walking with a bit of trot, but he was absolutely super. He was SO happy to be out and about, his little ears were so pricked the entire time. And he was really well behaved! It was quite special to take both boys actually, and I didn't stop grinning when I rode Bog (my friend and I swapped around a bit).

Bear was just delightful, bar annoyingly pulling the same shoe twice. He led the way with his forward and confident manner, had his first experience with water (streams) and was just generally superb. You would never know he was four and he has come such a long way. It seems another lifetime ago that when we met another walker I had to prepare for him to spin and try and gallop home... now he's the sort of horse you put in front to lead others past things.

Oh and he loves cows, even plastic ones, and no Bog nor the other horse would go near it but Bear- well. 

Absolutely loved riding both boys, for different reasons


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## Lindylouanne (23 October 2020)

You were on my doorstep, literally 🤣


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## Michen (23 October 2020)

Lindylouanne said:



			You were on my doorstep, literally 🤣
		
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Hehe! It was fabulous!!!!


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## Lindylouanne (23 October 2020)

Did you go onto the main road, across and over to the airfield then back up through the grounds of the big NT house, there’s a good gallop on the way home.


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## Michen (23 October 2020)

Lindylouanne said:



			Did you go onto the main road, across and over to the airfield then back up through the grounds of the big NT house, there’s a good gallop on the way home.
		
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Ummm possibly, but we weren't really galloping as even when we didn't have Bog with us, I was a bit worried about Bear losing a shoe again!

Yes, went onto the main road though.


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## EarsofaSnowman (23 October 2020)

The cow picture has made my day😁 (thank you as was havong a bad day). And I have somewhat of a crush on Bear😍


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## CanteringCarrot (23 October 2020)

I am straight up envious! 😉

Looks like a lovely time. Really enjoy the pic with the cow 😂


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## Keith_Beef (23 October 2020)

Michen said:



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This is my favourite: he looks like he loves crisps, but he's got his eye on that glass of what looks like carrot juice...



Michen said:



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Another lovely photo.



Michen said:



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Michen said:



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How do you get them to stand so nicely for the camera?


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## Michen (23 October 2020)

Keith_Beef said:



			This is my favourite: he looks like he loves crisps, but he's got his eye on that glass of what looks like carrot juice...


Another lovely photo.








How do you get them to stand so nicely for the camera?
		
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HA- it was a Bloody Mary. I needed it!

umm, they were all playing with eachother the whole time so was just a quick snap!!


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## Michen (13 November 2020)

A little pony update whilst I remember! 

Boggle has been completely bonkers. I always thought he went so fiery in the winter because he was so fit and hunting. Nope. The only time he’s not nuts is if I lead Bear off him where he’s an absolute angel 🤦‍♀️ So on Tuesday we are having a 20 min walk dressage lesson in the school so I can get some exercises to do to keep his ridiculously busy brain occupied. Roll on February where we can officially start some “proper” work one year post diagnosis.

My vet did say just crack on with him and bring him back but I am keeping very strictly to walk and trot out hacking with short bendy walk work in the school to keep him ticking over and mobile with his hocks whilst still giving the ligament every chance of a long term recovery.

Bear is being a poppet, I have just taken him back in the school and he’s WTC very sweetly and feels much stronger, happier and just a lovely chap. I’m very very fond of him and have no intention of selling unless his jumping doesn’t turn out to be what I need (confidence giving) or something changes financially. He also has a lesson Tuesday and hopefully I’ll introduce some small jumps in the next month or so, before he gets a winter break. He was super fresh and broncy out hunting the other day but it made me grin a little in truth, and he left and hacked home from the meet so angelically that he more than redeemed himself

No interesting pics I’m afraid but hopefully some videos to follow next week. Oh and an 8 month old Pepper, whose turning into the most awesome little working doggie in training, flying all her lessons and showing true talent. Field trials here we come (maybe  )


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## SashaBabe (13 November 2020)

Lovely photos


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## IrishMilo (13 November 2020)

I love Bear. He looks like a little Holsteiner.


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## Michen (13 November 2020)

IrishMilo said:



			I love Bear. He looks like a little Holsteiner.
		
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Aw, he’d be really chuffed with that comparison!


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## Red-1 (14 November 2020)

They both look wonderful, and I love that they match.

Your heart must sing every time you see them in the field together.


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## babymare (14 November 2020)

What lovely photos. Bear really is gorgeous


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## Michen (14 November 2020)

Red-1 said:



			They both look wonderful, and I love that they match.

Your heart must sing every time you see them in the field together.
		
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It does. For lots of reasons but I hated Boggle being on individual turnout for 3 years. I feel like I’ve given him the best present- a proper mate


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## Jeni the dragon (14 November 2020)

They just look so happy together!


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## Bernster (14 November 2020)

Gorgeous boys!


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## Ambers Echo (14 November 2020)

So pleased for you that Bear has worked out so well and Bog is well on the way to recovery. X


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## ITPersonnage (14 November 2020)

Another with serious B&B envy, and Pepper is a really top dog too  Lucky girl...


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## Michen (4 December 2020)

Why I just can’t think about selling this cheeky sod at the moment, he’s just too damn good hearted.


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## Pinkvboots (4 December 2020)

That is so cute bless him you can't ever sell him his just gorgeous


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## Michen (4 December 2020)

Pinkvboots said:



			That is so cute bless him you can't ever sell him his just gorgeous
		
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He’s less cute when I’m leading him off Boggle and he’s got his gob open the entire time to grab Boggles main, or itch his head on Boggles arse, or grab my boots or reins or whip 😂😂😂😂😂. He is SO cheeky but a very good boy at the same time!


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## Pinkvboots (4 December 2020)

Michen said:



			He’s less cute when I’m leading him off Boggle and he’s got his gob open the entire time to grab Boggles main, or itch his head on Boggles arse, or grab my boots or reins or whip 😂😂😂😂😂. He is SO cheeky but a very good boy at the same time!
		
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My pair have there little ways with each other I often watch them through the window it's so funny to watch them play bite then they just start grooming each other, I don't think I could separate them I would just feel terrible now especially as they only have each other here.


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## Michen (30 December 2020)

Ohhhh my horses are testing. Bear is having a mid winter baby break and is fresh as anything in the field, with a wicked glint in his eye when he’s led in and out. Goodness knows what he will be like to get back on in a few weeks.

And Boggle.. well I think I said merely hours ago on a thread that he’s a load of hot air and I trust him explicitly. I actually GOT OFF him on a short hack today, I had the dog with me and he was so completely wild, I was just about keeping a lid on him (and his none stop squealing) when he did the most gigantic leap/rear/buck thing I was very lucky to sit. The only time he’s done that under saddle in the last few years is once during his rehab which was completely justified. With no neck strap, no martingale and my precious pup in tow I decided to lead him back as I felt it would be the option less likely to result in him loose 🙈 I didn’t want him to bury me and gallop home with his carefully rehabbed injury. When I got off him his eye was as soft as butter.  I can’t believe it.. in nearly 4 years of owning him I have only ever had to do that once- when he was 5!!

I think some proper hard work is on the horizon for the little shitbag, clearly he’s had enough of his easy time.


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## Upthecreek (30 December 2020)

He’s getting his own back for the antlers and tinsel 😂


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## Jeni the dragon (30 December 2020)

Fabulous picture! You've definitely got your hands full!


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## brighteyes (30 December 2020)

Michen said:



			Bloody horses. Both feel great in themselves but Bear has been drinking more than normal and bloods have snowed slightly raised liver enzymes. He’s having another test today and then a scan and biopsy potentially. Vet not too concerned and says carry on as normal as he’s totally fine in himself but still- always a bit worrying!

Hopefully we will get to the bottom of it. A little video from this morning, I wished I was on Bear when I saw that lot coming down the road (friend on Bear filming). I was expecting to be teleported into the middle of the field by Bog but it seems he’s finally growing up. Also been doing lots of riding and leading and they’ve been great, in fact Bog is the better behaved as Bear just tries to nip him!!!






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He's a Scooter! All mine are unshod Scoot Boot wearers...


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## Michen (10 January 2021)

I am so chuffed with Boggle, he is feeling amazing. He’s so long in the back and has always been at a disadvantage because I hate schooling, and he’s mostly been a hunted/hack/odd event horse. The few months has really forced me (especially now, with a horse with spavin that needs consistent work) to really do something in the school. Even though he’s not doing “much”, he feels so much better and stronger than he ever has. I really hope we get to some events this year and truly put a horrible time behind us injury wise.

And he looks rather different, I hope he will look stronger/better in 6 weeks time with more polework and upping the work in general. But here he is rising 9 compared to rising 7 and rising 5. Tbf, when rising 7 he was hunting fit!

Not sure why I’m being so busy with my hands in the video- must address that!

Also no idea why it’s age restricted, just boggle trotting in the school 😂


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## HashRouge (10 January 2021)

He looks amazing! I always forget what a funny looking youngster he was (no offence meant at all BTW!). He's a real stunner now 😊


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## Michen (10 January 2021)

HashRouge said:



			He looks amazing! I always forget what a funny looking youngster he was (no offence meant at all BTW!). He's a real stunner now 😊
		
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He sure was an ugly duckling! Thanks, I’m really pleased and this is just the start of the muscle building and strengthening schoolwork I want to do with him really. Every ride is a blessing tbh.

Had a flat lesson with my jump instructor who hasn’t seen him in a year since the injury and she said she couldn’t believe it was the same horse 😀


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## Michen (10 January 2021)

I keep looking at that photo and wondering if he is now, in fact fat 😂🤦‍♀️


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## outdoor girl (10 January 2021)

What a difference.  It's hard to believe it's the same horse.  And no he isn't fat!!!!!!


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## SEL (10 January 2021)

Michen said:



			I keep looking at that photo and wondering if he is now, in fact fat 😂🤦‍♀️
		
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He's definitely lost the racing greyhound look but I'm struggling to see actual blubber!!

He looks great 😊


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## palo1 (10 January 2021)

I think he looks great; he looks much more even across his whole self now that he has matured and his quarters in particular look nicely developed.  He is a stunning horse  Well done for getting him to this, in spite of injury   I hope that is Boggle's growing pains done now!!


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## Boulty (10 January 2021)

He is looking fab


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## wills_91 (10 January 2021)

I want to know why they have age restricted his video 😂

He is looking fab, one of my favourites


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## Michen (10 January 2021)

wills_91 said:



			I want to know why they have age restricted his video 😂

He is looking fab, one of my favourites
		
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Goodness knows, maybe someone is bored and pressing buttons 😂. Thank you!


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## wren123 (10 January 2021)

Gosh what an incredible difference he looks fabulous now!


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## SatansLittleHelper (10 January 2021)

He's looking fab....the difference is amazing 😍


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## ElleSkywalker (10 January 2021)

Ahhh lovely Bog 😍 I didn't think he is fat just filled out and muscled up. A friend (who also had matching connies but dun ones) has a racing greyhound one too, I do sometimes get a shock when he's less greyhound-y but also has never been fat


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## Red-1 (11 January 2021)

He looks fabulous!


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## Michen (11 January 2021)

Thanks for the sense check guys! I am definitely not used to a non hunting Boggle bod mid winter.

I am convinced he’s actually grown as well as is my instructor.


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## Michen (11 January 2021)

ElleSkywalker said:



			Ahhh lovely Bog 😍 I didn't think he is fat just filled out and muscled up. A friend (who also had matching connies but dun ones) has a racing greyhound one too, I do sometimes get a shock when he's less greyhound-y but also has never been fat 

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Omg matching dun connies would be very dreamy. I’ll have to imagine it with my boring bays 😂

Ps Sybil is very happy in her new home and she has even been spotted driving around the county over the last 6 months by various friends!


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## ycbm (11 January 2021)

I would never have expected his ribcage to drop like that,  he's turned out to be rather fab! 
.


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## Michen (11 January 2021)

ycbm said:



			I would never have expected his ribcage to drop like that,  he's turned out to be rather fab!
.
		
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Thank you! He is taking up the leg rather nicely now


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## ycbm (11 January 2021)

He could easily have "grown" M, as in be taller.   You probably know that the front legs aren't attached by bones to the main  skeleton, only by lots of soft tissue,  so it's entirely possible that all his extra muscle has pulled up his withers,  in fact it looks like that in the photos.


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## Michen (11 January 2021)

ycbm said:



			He could easily have "grown" M, as in be taller.   You probably know that the front legs aren't attached by bones to the main  skeleton, only by lots of soft tissue,  so it's entirely possible that all his extra muscle has pulled up his withers,  in fact it looks like that in the photos.
		
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Do you think it is extra muscle though rather than he just has more weight on him than norm? I don’t feel like I’ve done enough targeted muscle building stuff in the school yet to have warranted any significant gain! But, there is no doubt he has in the last few weeks in particular started using himself and moving better. So many really all that was ever needed was some regular schooling 🤦‍♀️

I am completely useless at looking at a horse and knowing if I’m looking at a nicely muscled horse or if the horse just has good coverage but is actually weak still.


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## ihatework (11 January 2021)

I think you are seeing a mixture of things - weight gain (I suspect there is some fat there 😜), posture/stance change, more comfortable etc. He obviously hasn’t been buzzing around out hunting which whilst keeps them lean and fit doesn’t always lay muscle in the optimum places.

I think you have the basis of shape and condition to now fine tune and tighten up with more constructive work.


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## ycbm (11 January 2021)

Michen said:



			Do you think it is extra muscle though rather than he just has more weight on him than norm? I don’t feel like I’ve done enough targeted muscle building stuff in the school yet to have warranted any significant gain! But, there is no doubt he has in the last few weeks in particular started using himself and moving better. So many really all that was ever needed was some regular schooling 🤦‍♀️

I am completely useless at looking at a horse and knowing if I’m looking at a nicely muscled horse or if the horse just has good coverage but is actually weak still.
		
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I'd need hands on to know if he was fat. He doesn't look fat, it's only the comparison with his previous herring gut look that would make anyone think he was. 

My mare has done less work than ever, but has more back muscle.  When her feet were sore because I'd let her get fat,  she lost an alarming amount of muscle on her back and held herself very differently. 

The latest picture just says everything is going well,  to me. 
.


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## Michen (11 January 2021)

ihatework said:



			I think you are seeing a mixture of things - weight gain (I suspect there is some fat there 😜), posture/stance change, more comfortable etc. He obviously hasn’t been buzzing around out hunting which whilst keeps them lean and fit doesn’t always lay muscle in the optimum places.

I think you have the basis of shape and condition to now fine tune and tighten up with more constructive work.
		
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That makes sense. Thank you. I have been feeding him up, this was him 3rd Dec and I felt like he still had a long way to to get through winter and keep condition. Knowing how hard it is to get weight on him I doubled his equerry conditioning mash 🙈. I didn’t really expect it to actually add condition tbh!


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## ElleSkywalker (11 January 2021)

Michen said:



			Omg matching dun connies would be very dreamy. I’ll have to imagine it with my boring bays 😂

Ps Sybil is very happy in her new home and she has even been spotted driving around the county over the last 6 months by various friends!
		
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They are lovely, the one that's not Bogs blonde double is a more pony type who even when hunting fit has a little chubby belly 😁 Both are awesome 

Ps I hope Sybils new owner is aware that she may one day be confronted by a small chubby blonde person randomly sobbing all over her bonnet. I feel much more affection to her now my beloved ginger pony is no long with us as it really was her lorry while with me


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## Michen (8 March 2021)

Four years ago this day I picked up Boggle from the M4 Chievely services. And 1 year ago this day I picked up Bear from the M25 Chobham services!

I cant believe it was a year ago that there was a huge thread as you all helped me choose which Connemara pony to buy as a project stand in for Boggle. I think a few of you asked whether I’d really be able to sell him.. well the answer is a definite no 😂 We are just in the process of sorting some raised liver enzymes but, irrespective of that, he isn’t and can’t really be for sale because.. well... he’s pretty awesome and Bog loves him and blah blah blah...so now plans for him to go anywhere for now though my friend is going to part loan him from the yard.

So happy 4 year anniversary to Boggle, who I utterly adore beyond belief. It’s been a pretty up and down last year but he looks and feels better than ever.

And 1 year of Bear! The shaking, nervous wreck who could barely walk off the lorry when he was collected and spent several months in various states of emotional turmoil. He’s not “finished” by a long stretch in terms of schooling, jumping education etc but he is a reliable, sensible, cheeky and happy young chap who I think will be a pretty special all rounder a year from now. I have had loads of fun teaching him about hunting and taking him in various trips and holidays.

Here’s hoping for many more fun years with the two of them. Hopefully starting with 65cm pairs at munstead next month. What anyone with matching ponies dreams of 😂


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## Annagain (8 March 2021)

Nope, still can't tell them apart! Here's to many more anniversaries - for both of them


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## Lammy (8 March 2021)

They are both so smart! Happy anniversaries 😆
You’ve made me want matching bay ponies 😂


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## Ceriann (8 March 2021)

They are both gorgeous and a lovely positive story!  Hope you continue to have lots of fun with them both.


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## Hannahgb (8 March 2021)

I just love them!


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## SashaBabe (8 March 2021)

What a lovely update.  I hope you have many happy years ahead with them.  They are gorgeous.


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## Squeak (8 March 2021)

Happy Anniversary.  Another who still can't tell them apart!  Hoping you have many more anniversaries with such positive updates for both of them.


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## ITPersonnage (8 March 2021)

Love them both and you've done a fabulous job of getting them both ready to go  
Here's to many more anniversaries and I hope your sharer knows how many of us are green with envy !! (All the very best though)


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## DabDab (8 March 2021)

Happy anniversary! They both look fantastic ☺️

And here's to you being officially hopeless at keeping to your promise to sell a horse on 🥂 (pretty sure you also said the same about boggle once upon a time 😉)


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## Cloball (8 March 2021)

I think the Bog and Bear bromance is the best bit 😊


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## SatansLittleHelper (8 March 2021)

Happy Anniversaries boys, still both gorgeous 😍


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## Red-1 (8 March 2021)

Lovely update!


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## ElleSkywalker (8 March 2021)

Tee hee hee 😁😁😁


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## Michen (8 March 2021)

ElleSkywalker said:



			Tee hee hee 😁😁😁
		
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If I recall correctly it was actually you that renamed him from Teddy to Bear?


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## ElleSkywalker (8 March 2021)

Yep. And said you wouldn't sell him or Bog back in the dark days of norty Boggle 😁🤭


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## Michen (8 March 2021)

ElleSkywalker said:



			Yep. And said you wouldn't sell him or Bog back in the dark days of norty Boggle 😁🤭
		
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You mean wouldn't KEEP


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## Ambers Echo (8 March 2021)

Lovely update and fab pics. x


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## ownedbyaconnie (8 March 2021)

You and one other person I know have a knack for finding the 0.1% of connies that are bay and it's really very annoying for us mere mortals that get stuck with the greys.  Here's me trying to make my bog pony resemble a smart working hunter and not a poobald coloured whale.

Can't believe it has been a year! I loved following your thread when you were picking your next connie.  Looking forward to following both of their progress for years to come.


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## Michen (8 March 2021)

ownedbyaconnie said:



			You and one other person I know have a knack for finding the 0.1% of connies that are bay and it's really very annoying for us mere mortals that get stuck with the greys.  Here's me trying to make my bog pony resemble a smart working hunter and not a poobald coloured whale.

Can't believe it has been a year! I loved following your thread when you were picking your next connie.  Looking forward to following both of their progress for years to come.
		
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Hahaha! That wasn’t why I bought him though honest 🤦‍♀️ I knew the second I saw the videos what a cut above the other, very pony (quite rightly) type connies I had been seeing he was and remember being so desperate to post on the thread because I knew he was the one.

Bog gave me that feeling because of his sharp piercing snort and the intelligent way he eyed up the camera man 😂

I would have a grey Connie but I am inherently late and disorganised I’d end up never being able to go hunting as I’d never have a reasonably clean one.


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## scats (8 March 2021)

Gorgeous boys.  You know I have a huge soft spot for Bear!


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## splashgirl45 (8 March 2021)

lovely photos and great update, glad bear is staying...


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## Michen (8 March 2021)

I have a huge soft spot for him too. And he’s actually really quite talented for what he is I think. He has a very active back end!!


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## Floofball (8 March 2021)

Lovely update - those 4 years have flown by!!! Super pics too 👍🏻


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## Jeni the dragon (8 March 2021)

Lovely seeing them both together!


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## Evie91 (8 March 2021)

Fabulous update!


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## pixie27 (9 March 2021)

I've just read this start to finish (the perks of WFH haha) and oh boy, what a journey!! I remember reading your early posts with Boggle and it's hard to believe it's the same horse, looks-wise. Bear is a gorgeous character too. Like a few others have said, please can you pick my next horse when I start shopping haha.

Wish you all the best for this year and can't wait to follow your journey!


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## Michen (17 March 2021)

Probably the last before and after worth doing with Bog as aged 9 I think he’s finally, finally finished growing and filling out. Looking the best he ever has with more to come muscle wise I think. And building up the jumping, no disuniting, which is such a good sign so far injury wise.

I think a 70cm ODE  may be required in the near future..


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## Errin Paddywack (17 March 2021)

Hard to believe it is the same horse, what a transformation.


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## Michen (26 May 2021)

Sorry not a Bear update (he’s had a mild right hind lameness which I’m just at the end of rehabbing- hopefully- vet check on Tuesday).

Just using this thread to get some thoughts. Boggle is in as full work as he could be. I was doing twice weekly in hand poles etc but that’s probably reduced to once weekly now. He’s jumping, schooling, hacking lots but I feel like he should have more muscle than he does- I'm seeing a sort of dip under the saddle. Am I expecting too much? It is an effort to get him to use his arse, it doesn’t come easy to him but I feel like he’s potentially lacking muscle under the saddle despite it being checked recently by a fitter. Not his best posture standing wise but a quick snap from the end of the rope.

Any thoughts, or am I being neurotic 🤣.. or should be more muscled than this. He is regularly (literally every 6 weeks at the moment!) looked at by my vet, has hock arthritis and is sound on the trot up. Slightly positive flexion but it trots out in enough time to pass a vet. Has regular physio.

I've posted a photo also of him earlier this year in winter with more weight on him (in much less work and not fit)- but perhaps more muscle? If so then something has gone wrong.. Hmmm.

He's also being fed just a handful of fast fibre, MSM and pro hoof. Perhaps he may benefit from some more protein..? Any suggestions if so? He hates grass nuts!


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## Bernster (26 May 2021)

I find these really difficult as obv there are lots of factors involved. Are you happy with the saddle fit?  I changed saddles (despite using qualified fitters and getting it checked regularly) and finnegan has put on more muscle along his back.  Same work and diet, just a different saddle fit.


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## ownedbyaconnie (26 May 2021)

Bernster said:



			I find these really difficult as obv there are lots of factors involved. Are you happy with the saddle fit?  I changed saddles (despite using qualified fitters and getting it checked regularly) and finnegan has put on more muscle along his back.  Same work and diet, just a different saddle fit.
		
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This.  There was nothing "wrong" with pony's previous saddle, never sore for physio every few months and saddle checked every 6.   But changed saddle and she immediately started putting on muscle.  Nothing else had changed.


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## Red-1 (26 May 2021)

Is he the right age for his wither to 'pop up'? I have found it is a thing, usually at age 7 or 8.


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## Michen (26 May 2021)

Red-1 said:



			Is he the right age for his wither to 'pop up'? I have found it is a thing, usually at age 7 or 8.
		
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Hmm, not sure... I haven't noticed it popping haha!

THe saddle is the one he's been in since he was 5. Been checked by about 3/4 different fitters. I did have it completely reflocked end of last year but it's still been checked (twice actually) since then.

I'm happy with the saddle, and have noticed absolutely no changes with him. He feels better/stronger than ever...

Maybe I'm looking for something that's not there?


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## Roxylola (26 May 2021)

I think you'd be better off comparing fit photos rather than the fat(ish) to fit.
I've noticed that Charlie lost muscle similarly over the first quarter of the year. He's really fit but he's not been doing the lateral work and schooling he was previously so his top line dropped off a bit. He's also on a semi diet - fat cobs can't gallop! He's out now and gained a little which helped fill the gaps a bit and with facilities back open doing a bit more schooling and his top line is picking back up with the combination. 
I personally think Bog looks fit and well and wouldn't worry hugely - as you say getting them to use their butts is hard work but I think if he's getting plenty of grub he'll muscle up as you go


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## IrishMilo (26 May 2021)

I can see the dip that you mean - some horses seem to be prone to it although I do agree that he's lacking muscle. It doesn't look like he has much at all, particularly over the neck and back. I think he looks better in the older pics where he's carrying a bit more and generally a little more covered all over. Small bounces would be a really good way for him to stretch over the neck and back and hopefully build something up.


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## TheMule (26 May 2021)

I think he looks super, and just how I would expect a fit horse to look. If he's in hard work I would add in a bit more protein


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## Michen (26 May 2021)

TheMule said:



			I think he looks super, and just how I would expect a fit horse to look. If he's in hard work I would add in a bit more protein
		
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Thanks TM, any suggestions feed wise?


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## bouncing_ball (26 May 2021)

Michen said:



			Thanks TM, any suggestions feed wise?
		
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options for increasing protein

Switch to a higher protein hay / haylage
Add micronised linseed
Add alfa A chaff / nuts
Add 10gms of lysine (most common limiting amino acid)


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## TPO (26 May 2021)

Going to stick my neck out and say that I think he looks spot on.

It's the superficial muscles that you can see and feel easily at the surface. The main ones "over the back", so to speak, are the Trapezius (pointing triangle is top of withers roughly with one side going up the neck (cervicis) and the other side extending beneath the saddle and where the points would be (thoracis)). Then you have the latissimis dorsi from beneath the bottom edge of your trapezius triangle from the shoulder going over the back and is what the saddle sits on.

The photos are from one side so to make a more accurate judgement ideally you would need photos from both sides, front, back and from above looking down across the back/shoulders/neck. However based on your photos all of those muscles look healthy.

If you are ever concerned about back pain or pressure points from a saddle you can do a regular check using your fingers or a pen with a lid.

Basically from the spine to the shelf of the ribs (where you start feeling ribs i.e. muscles between both markers) draw zig zags from the wither down then up to the spine and so on. Then approx 2" down from the spine draw a horizontal line and same again approx 4" down. Wother a biro with a lid on or your middle finger in top of inder finger with medium pressure. If there is a sore point then the muscle will twitch as you pass over it. If the pressure is too hard the horse will yield from it; that's a good thing as when there is "proper" back pain (KS for example) they dont react to pressure/pain because they resist against it.

So yeah just wee checks you can do to put your mind at ease a bit.

I think there is a lot of talk about "topline" without a full appreciation of what it is, how it's made and what it can look like.

For example (can't remember user name) Fig the exracer went really hench and built, especially for a TB, with his dressage training. I would compare that more to a crossfit/lifter in human terms. As in developed strong muscles that can be explosive for power whilst strong for collection. There were a lot of really good comparison photos posted of him.

Then on the other hand look at the super fit horses racing and eventing. They are more lean with incredible cardio fitness. If someone posted a pic of a really fit horse I'm sure there would be replies that their horse was underweight etc.

I would say that bog is more that way developed because he does the work you've described. (Not saying hes underweight, again he looks spot on to me)

So yeah I don't think you have any cause for concern. Used the muscle names not just because I'm a geek but because it might help you to google and see some "painted horses" so you can see just how ok Bog is. The Gillian Higgins books are ace as easy references too.

Re feed its tricky because he looks so good just now in a low calorie feed and hopefully grass will appear soon (next to none here don't know what it's like with you). I'm not a fast fibre fan as it contains nutritionally improved straw but if it works. I don't know if swapping for something like linseed, pink mash or Copra would do the job. Possibly even supplement with some sort of amnio acids/spiruilla (hopefully spelt it correctly).

Forage Plus/Forage Talk have some good articles about feeding protein that might help give you some guidance

3hrs later after typing this and you've probably had umpteen replies all saying completely different things!


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## ihatework (26 May 2021)

I think he looks fine. You are never going to change his basic underlying structure. He is obviously completely different to my ex-giant, but they also have similarities in shape and how they carry weight and muscle. This was him in fittening pre-2*, bearing in mind his heavy dose of carthorse


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## Michen (26 May 2021)

Ah ok thanks guys I really appreciate the feedback! Was about to sob into my lunch when I read that he has no muscle 🙈 truth is it’s hard for me to know what I’m looking at as I see him day in day out and I don’t want to think he looks normal if he doesn’t. 

TPO I literally picked up some pink mash yesterday, actually for Bear as he’s got a bit whizzy now the grass is flushing and I thought it may help settle any gut discomfort but I can see if Bog will eat it. I’m amazed he eats the FF as he used to turn his nose up but weirdly since having Bear around he is less fussy, almost a competitive thing as they both get fed together etc. He has physio in ten days so I’ll see if she picks up on any saddle related soreness as well. 

He’s already still on (dry high fibre) haylage but will have to move onto hay soon. 

Micronised linseed seems a good thing to add. Maybe some alphabeet? Or saracens releve now has a new nut form which could tempt me back to buying it again!


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## Bernster (26 May 2021)

PS I think he looks great, didn’t mean to say he wasn’t, it was just that for me I noticed an improvement in muscle with my boy in his new saddle.


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## HelenBack (26 May 2021)

What about a pelleted balancer instead of the pro hoof if you want a bit more protein? Clare MacLeod the nutritionist recommended that to me when I was worried my lad wasn't quite getting enough. Definitely with alfabeet and/or linseed would be helpful I'm sure.  

I think he looks fine and we're just not used to seeing lean horses very much. I think connies do tend to be front wheel drive though and if mine drops weight he can pretty easily look poor behind while still looking fine at the front end.


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## Tiddlypom (26 May 2021)

I think he looks in good nick, but if you decide to go for extra protein without adding much bulk you could try pea protein (available from forageplus). They have rather different needs to yours, but I have my 2 Cushing's horses on it.


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## I'm Dun (26 May 2021)

I'd be adding amino acids. They work out fairly economical from Progressive Earth and have definitely helped one of mine, alongside correct work etc


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## Michen (2 July 2021)

Hi all! Thought I owed an update. It’s all a bit sad in BogBear land.

Boggle gave me the most fantastic run a month ago (slightly embarrassing but funny video here), like he’d never been out of the game and jumped a beautiful double clear. We had too slow time faults in the SJ as it was hard then too fast in the XC (oops). He came out of it really well with a nice cold leg so pleased with that. Unfortunately a few weeks later he started stumbling in the trailer on left turns, he’s coming up to a year post injections for very minor hock arthritis so he’s just had them done, I’ve withdrawn from offchurch this weekend and will get him back up and running soon. He still feels absolutely brilliant and had just jumped two double clears out SJ with clean landings at every fence, so I’m really chuffed with the ligament side of things and hopefully we can settle the hocks if they are causing an issue again.

Bear was found to have a very minor soft tissue injury to the suspensory branch- it looks like he’s whacked it. It’s been tricky to diagnose and he was prescribed 3 months box rest with controlled walking. Unfortunately despite various contraptions in the last week he’s got away from me twice despite being seemingly very relaxed and chilled snd had a good gallop. This was an old party trick of his when he arrived from Ireland but I had got him out of it with lots of groundwork and a richard maxwell halter. So a bit disappointing. We Re scanned it today and it’s not worse but it’s certainly not better which after a month of box rest is disappointing.

So after a bit of soul searching he’s off to a local SJ yard to be turned out in a small paddock 24/7 with an elderly chap, where he can hopefully just rest and relax. current yard isn’t 24/7 and Boggle isn’t the most relaxing of field buddies, so unfortunately Boggle looses his mate for a while longer but Bear gains one! I think it’s the right thing to do and hopefully we will see some improvement in a few months and he can come back home on normal routine and start a walk rehab from the field (I am keeping my box at the yard). The intention is for him to go on full loan to my friend once I’ve got him up and running.

So good news and bad but both boys very cheerful, Boggle especially so as ever and hopefully we will get a couple of events more in this season but I’m still just delighted we even got to Ascott and that he’s on such brilliant form and looking a picture.

sj






xc video


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## SEL (2 July 2021)

Love the video! He looks smashing and not at all like his hocks are bothering him - more like he could easily take on the bigger fences 

Annoying about Bear but horses really don't have the self preservation we want them to have when it comes to tendons and ligaments. I've watched wincing many a time whilst my mare decided to test out her dodgy suspensory with a series of acrobatic manoeuvres. Keeping fingers crossed he heals quickly.


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## Welsh Dragon (2 July 2021)

Sorry to hear Bear isn't 100%, fingers crossed a holiday with a more 'mature' gentleman will do the trick.

I watched your XC video and it's clear that Boogle loves his work. He's looking cracking. Also lovely to hear you talking to him on your way round. It must feel like all  those months of box rest and vets visits were worth it.


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## PurBee (2 July 2021)

Lovely to hear an update on the boys!
Bog is a star on that xc course…looked like loads of fun….great camera work, you must be so chuffed he’s come round and youre out having fun together again 😀
I hope Bear’s relocation fix will help him heal speedily….sounds like a good plan having in with limited turnout and a chilled-out companion. Its hard to tell horses “youve injured yourself, just take it easy, just walk and you’ll heal!”
My livelier gelding is much more chilled out with ultra relaxed mare, than what he would be with another horse of a similar nature to him, so companion choice is key for keeping them chilled out and reducing field antics.


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## Michen (2 July 2021)

Thank you! Added the sj video too 






It was very special, he is very special and I just love the horse more than I can put into words!

I will miss my little Bear pony but it’s the right thing for him and he’s got his home to come back to when is ready. Despite my many attempts to get rid of him 🤣


Welsh Dragon said:



			Sorry to hear Bear isn't 100%, fingers crossed a holiday with a more 'mature' gentleman will do the trick.

I watched your XC video and it's clear that Boogle loves his work. He's looking cracking. Also lovely to hear you talking to him on your way round. It must feel like all  those months of box rest and vets visits were worth it.
		
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## Tarragon (2 July 2021)

Lovely videos! and the "Good boy!" after every jump


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## Michen (2 July 2021)

Tarragon said:



			Lovely videos! and the "Good boy!" after every jump 

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Ridiculous isn’t it, you’d think he was going around badminton 🤣


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## Ambers Echo (2 July 2021)

So sorry things aren't quite right with your lovely boys. Hope Bear enjoys his holiday and comes back fighting fit x


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## RHM (2 July 2021)

I loved that XC video, Bog looks mega and you telling him he is a good boy after every fence makes me feel a bit emotional! So nice to see a partnership like that! 
Sorry about bear though, hopefully the new yard does the job!


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## Michen (2 July 2021)

Thanks everyone. RHM I still get a bit emotional watching it 

I was due to pack Bear off tomorrow but heart ruling head once again (no insurance money) and I want to throw some therapies at it despite their seemingly poor evidence of success in this sort of injury. So think we will try stem cell treatment, will probably keep him here until the vet can do it and then pack him off.


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## RHM (2 July 2021)

Michen said:



			Thanks everyone. RHM I still get a bit emotional watching it 

I was due to pack Bear off tomorrow but heart ruling head once again (no insurance money) and I want to throw some therapies at it despite their seemingly poor evidence of success in this sort of injury. So think we will try stem cell treatment, will probably keep him here until the vet can do it and then pack him off.
		
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Mine had a suspensory injury 5 years ago and I would really recommend PRP, think it cost me £1.5k though 😱


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## Michen (2 July 2021)

RHM said:



			Mine had a suspensory injury 5 years ago and I would really recommend PRP, think it cost me £1.5k though 😱
		
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So vet said no to PRP, I think not enough of a hole?

Bog had it though.

Yep, 1.5k for the stem cell. But if it was Boggle I wouldn't think twice and it just seems really crappy to not apply the same logic to Bear even if he's not my "main man". At least I'll sleep at night


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## CanteringCarrot (2 July 2021)

I love your videos with Boggle. You two are such a great pair.

As for Bear, I don't know. If I had the means, I'd probably try the stem cell therapy, but I also have no idea on if it actually improves anything/works.

I do think the moving to some turnout is a good idea.

I hope this can heal and be a non-issue for you and Bear 🤞


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## RHM (2 July 2021)

Michen said:



			So vet said no to PRP, I think not enough of a hole?

Bog had it though.

Yep, 1.5k for the stem cell. But if it was Boggle I wouldn't think twice and it just seems really crappy to not apply the same logic to Bear even if he's not my "main man". At least I'll sleep at night 

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Haha anything for a good night sleep! The science seems fairly robust for stem cell so you know you are at least not throwing good money after bad. I also had shockwave which is supposed to prevent scar tissue and thickening. Wouldn’t really recommend, it’s expensive and I don’t think it made a blind bit of difference to mine. Also the very expensive vet prescribed supplements did nothing! Mine took 6 months of rest and walking to become sound, hopefully bear won’t take as long! Heath had a gaping hole in his!


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## Michen (2 July 2021)

RHM said:



			Haha anything for a good night sleep! The science seems fairly robust for stem cell so you know you are at least not throwing good money after bad. I also had shockwave which is supposed to prevent scar tissue and thickening. Wouldn’t really recommend, it’s expensive and I don’t think it made a blind bit of difference to mine. Also the very expensive vet prescribed supplements did nothing! Mine took 6 months of rest and walking to become sound, hopefully bear won’t take as long! Heath had a gaping hole in his!
		
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Ah thanks that's encouraging. I need to do some reading.

He definitely doesn't have a big hole, the vet described it as having "lifted" slightly. So minor a surgeon had to review the scans just to make sure it's a "thing". But, minor as it may be, it's making him lame.. so it's sort of irrelevant as it's clearly causing an issue.


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## RHM (2 July 2021)

Michen said:



			Ah thanks that's encouraging. I need to do some reading.

He definitely doesn't have a big hole, the vet described it as having "lifted" slightly. So minor a surgeon had to review the scans just to make sure it's a "thing". But, minor as it may be, it's making him lame.. so it's sort of irrelevant as it's clearly causing an issue.
		
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Brilliant that you picked it up that quickly though! Mine was so stoic two vets said he was sound before he went in for a work up 🤦‍♀️Should mean that you will hopefully have a good outcome!


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## Michen (2 July 2021)

RHM said:



			Brilliant that you picked it up that quickly though! Mine was so stoic two vets said he was sound before he went in for a work up 🤦‍♀️Should mean that you will hopefully have a good outcome!
		
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Eek not sure we did, we thought it was foot balance so there was maybe 2/3 months... But he was mostly in walk during that time taking things easy anyway so wasn't jumping etc thank goodness.


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## RHM (2 July 2021)

Michen said:



			Eek not sure we did, we thought it was foot balance so there was maybe 2/3 months... But he was mostly in walk during that time taking things easy anyway so wasn't jumping etc thank goodness.
		
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Mine took a good three months too, annoyingly by that time he had done some secondary damage to his other leg 🤦‍♀️ Bloody horses ey!


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## Ceriann (3 July 2021)

Took over 3 months to diagnose my mares branch injury.  It was me not the vet that kept saying she wasn’t right on left hind with lameness locator showing sound.  I did one month of box rest then 6 months in rotating box rest size paddocks with increasing in hand walks.  Months of light hacking after that.  Kept turnout to flat fields etc. She scanned clear after 6 months (following quite a nasty injury).  It’s been hard but I scanned again before we upped the work and she was clear.  I was told she would never be sound or return to full work - she’s defied both.  The time away with small paddocks and time to recover will do him the world of good.


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## Michen (31 August 2021)

Well Bear is slowly killing me 🤣🤣🤣 I’ve posted elsewhere but he’s had an irritating very minor lameness which was eventually diagnosed as the tiniest of lesions in a suspensory branch. Box rest and in hand walking was a disaster and scan showed no improvement so he had expensive lipogem/stem cell treatment out of my own pocket and was turned out all summer in a quiet paddock.

Bought him home yesterday and had him scanned and lameness checked today. Scan shows a perfectly healed lesion! Brilliant. Can’t even see it anymore. But Bear is still lame, it’s so slight and previously it was much more visible under saddle. Now it’s very slight and no worse under saddle. Vet says bring him back into work as the Physio and movement may just help him along.

But we’ve also struggled with consistently raised liver enzymes which have come and gone, I know when they are back as he starts drinking copious amounts of water. Just had his bloods pulled today but I know what the answer will be. I’m out of insurance time and he’s had various stints of antibiotics but yet again it’s come back. He looks in great health (bar the below) and has never shown any physical liver issues other than the drinking.

His feet, which were absolutely rubbish have just barely grown all summer. I (and my vet) are sure it must be to do with the liver and generally being compromised. He’s previously been out of shoes and great on all surfaces but 3 months barefoot now and he’s footy even on smooth concrete.  But I’m at my wits end as to what I’ll do now. We will do another biopsy but where else can we go treatment wise? He’s had the following :

- Change of yard/environment. No hay, only hay, only grass
- Long periods of antibiorics
- Mycosorb
- Expensive liver supplement.
- Full testing for liver fluke


Previous biopsy just showed mild liver damage , not ragwort related but no diagnosis really.

I don’t know whether to be more worried about the liver or the ligament and what to do with the horse from here. It seems fruitless to turn him away any longer as the vet thinks ligament now needs to do something to get it strengthened. The feet I guess may start growing with stimulation? The liver.. who knows.

He’s meant to be either going on loan to my friend or being sold. But I can’t do either unless I get on top of things. I mean he’s obviously absolutely unsellable now and unloanable too! There’s not exactly enough “wrong” with him to PTS, but if I’m still in this position in 6 weeks time..?

Absolutely at my wits end with him to be honest and have chucked so much money trying to do the best for him.

On the plus side- Bog is sound and great after a brief scare from an over zealous farrier trim so looking forward to hopping back on him tomorrow. Event season is over for him now but just glad he’s on good form. Here’s a pic of him being awesome to brighten the thread 🤣


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## Lindylouanne (31 August 2021)

Just a thought re the liver but are you on a high iron content soil? It might be why his liver enzymes are raised and it could explain why his feet are not growing and he is now footy. I know you are meticulous in what you feed and the care you give your two so the trigger has to be something else.


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## Michen (31 August 2021)

Lindylouanne said:



			Just a thought re the liver but are you on a high iron content soil? It might be why his liver enzymes are raised and it could explain why his feet are not growing and he is now footy. I know you are meticulous in what you feed and the care you give your two so the trigger has to be something else.
		
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Possibly but I did have Boggles bloods done too and it wouldn’t make sense that it flared up again when I moved him? Albiet he was only 15 mins away.

Not sure what I’d do if it was soil related other than ship him to another county 🤣 None of the other horses seem to have this issue


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## Spanny (31 August 2021)

I couldn't really 'like' your post (apart from the picture, which is awesome!) I just didn't want to read and run. I don't have much useful to add but I wonder if Bear's liver issues could be causing some pain (if there is inflammation) that is then causing the lameness (if he's moving a bit strangley to try to protect it). Hope you can find an answer soon.


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## Michen (31 August 2021)

Spanny said:



			I couldn't really 'like' your post (apart from the picture, which is awesome!) I just didn't want to read and run. I don't have much useful to add but I wonder if Bear's liver issues could be causing some pain (if there is inflammation) that is then causing the lameness (if he's moving a bit strangley to try to protect it). Hope you can find an answer soon.
		
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A really good point but he’s been fairly regularly health checked and has definitely been sound (before this whole nightmare started) even with high enzymes. And definitely been lame when they’ve been normal. Not to say it couldn’t all be affecting him more though.

A puzzle 🤣 thanks for the suggestion. X


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## GinaGeo (31 August 2021)

Which leg is he not right on now? 

I only ask because when one of mine had ongoing not rightness in his whole body (feet, allergies, not 100% on RH) we had issues with hind gut. It’s taken awhile to get right. And we have used prebiotics and ultimately Equibiome Tests and their protocol.

I remember reading an article somewhere linking gut to liver issues. I’ll see if I can find it.


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## Michen (31 August 2021)

GinaGeo said:



			Which leg is he not right on now?

I only ask because when one of mine had ongoing not rightness in his whole body (feet, allergies, not 100% on RH) we had issues with hind gut. It’s taken awhile to get right. And we have used prebiotics and ultimately Equibiome Tests and their protocol.

I remember reading an article somewhere linking gut to liver issues. I’ll see if I can find it.
		
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It’s the right hind. He has always been on brewers yeast too, I guess I could go down the route of hind gut testing (succeed) etc, or just a good supplement maybe. I don’t really know where to spend the money next and frankly I don’t really want to spend any at all. Even today’s bill (£650 ish) is just starting to feel pretty painful.

I do want to do what’s best for him hence investing in the lipogem and doubling up on livery this summer to keep his space at home, but any further diagnosticy stuff at this point just feels a bit like throwing good money after bad.

Can you tell me more about the equibiome?

I guess also if it is hind gut issues why is a young horse out of work having that flare up?


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## GinaGeo (31 August 2021)

Michen said:



			It’s the right hind. He has always been on brewers yeast too, I guess I could go down the route of hind gut testing (succeed) etc, or just a good supplement maybe. I don’t really know where to spend the money next and frankly I don’t really want to spend any at all. Even today’s bill (£650 ish) is just starting to feel pretty painful.

I do want to do what’s best for him hence investing in the lipogem and doubling up on livery this summer to keep his space at home, but any further diagnosticy stuff at this point just feels a bit like throwing good money after bad.

Can you tell me more about the equibiome?

I guess also if it is hind gut issues why is a young horse out of work having that flare up?
		
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So mine was 2 when his kicked off. I don’t think he got the colostrum needed (older mare) and he had a bit of a worm burden. It all culminated when he had a nasty cut that needed lots of antibiotics. And hey presto gut disaster. If you’ve heavily used antibiotics I wouldn’t be surprised at all if there are hind gut issues. The caecum is on the right and can cause right hind lameness.

I saw an improvement with the Equibiome Prebiotic. And then again once I’d tested and treated accordingly. The test does take about 6weeka and isn’t a quick fix. I’d probably try their prebiotic first and see if you see an improvement. 

It all basically about the Gut Biome and the bacteria present. Bad bacteria can cause inflammation and other related issues.

This is the article I read re. Liver and gut.

https://www.equibiome.org/post/design-a-stunning-blog

It looks like there’s been a link in humans too: 

https://gut.bmj.com/content/65/12/2035 

Edited to say I was a sceptic. But was at my wits end. And had exhausted my vets suggestions.


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## Michen (31 August 2021)

GinaGeo said:



			So mine was 2 when his kicked off. I don’t think he got the colostrum needed (older mare) and he had a bit of a worm burden. It all culminated when he had a nasty cut that needed lots of antibiotics. And hey presto gut disaster. If you’ve heavily used antibiotics I wouldn’t be surprised at all if there are hind gut issues. The caecum is on the right and can cause right hind lameness.

I saw an improvement with the Equibiome Prebiotic. And then again once I’d tested and treated accordingly. The test does take about 6weeka and isn’t a quick fix. I’d probably try their prebiotic first and see if you see an improvement.

It all basically about the Gut Biome and the bacteria present. Bad bacteria can cause inflammation and other related issues.

This is the article I read re. Liver and gut.

https://www.equibiome.org/post/design-a-stunning-blog

Edited to say I was a sceptic. But was at my wits end. And had exhausted my vets suggestions.
		
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Thanks for posting that GG I'll give it a good read and chat with my vet when we have the bloods tomorrow.


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## spark56 (31 August 2021)

No idea if this is relevant, but EquiNatural stopped using brewers yeast in their supplements, saying that the latest research has shown it can be a gut disrupter.


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## Michen (31 August 2021)

spark56 said:



			No idea if this is relevant, but EquiNatural stopped using brewers yeast in their supplements, saying that the latest research has shown it can be a gut disrupter.
		
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Oh heck, I was feeding it for the B vits on vet recommendation.

I can't get anything right with this pony!! 

Thanks x


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## ycbm (31 August 2021)

https://equinatural.co.uk/i/brewers-yeast-and-why-we-shouldn-t-feed-it-anymore

Damn it I've just bought a new 25kg sack!

Does anyone know if yeasacc is still OK? I guess not,  as it's the live version of exactly the same yeast.

😡


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## spark56 (31 August 2021)

The supplement I get from EquiNatural still includes yea sacc.


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## ycbm (31 August 2021)

spark56 said:



			The supplement I get from EquiNatural still includes yea sacc.
		
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Does anyone want to share a delivery of yea-sacc with me?  I can get 5 sacks for £70 each,  but you need to be able to collect from Macclesfield. 
.


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## shortstuff99 (31 August 2021)

When one of mine had liver issues (environmental and then after a colic operation) the vet told us to feed vitamin E. I used the pro earth natural vitamin E at the high rate and that really helped.


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## splashgirl45 (31 August 2021)

this is likely to be no use but a friend had a horse with liver problems and she fed milk thistle,  it seemed to help....sorry if you have already tried it but if not could be worth a go.  such a shame you are having so many problems especially as you had a good home lined up.  fingers crossed you will be able to get the lovely boy sorted..


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## Michen (31 August 2021)

shortstuff99 said:



			When one of mine had liver issues (environmental and then after a colic operation) the vet told us to feed vitamin E. I used the pro earth natural vitamin E at the high rate and that really helped.
		
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Ok great thanks that could be another option then! Does it need to be the natural version I wonder?

SG, thanks, the expensive supp he was on was basically milk thistle..Legaphyton equistro


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## shortstuff99 (31 August 2021)

Michen said:



			Ok great thanks that could be another option then! Does it need to be the natural version I wonder?

SG, thanks, the expensive supp he was on was basically milk thistle..Legaphyton equistro
		
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It probably doesn't have to be the natural version but it does have a better uptake.


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## splashgirl45 (31 August 2021)

ok, thought i had better mention it just in case it helped.  good luck


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## jhoward (31 August 2021)

Milk thistle is a natural herbal for liver functions. 
 May be worth trying him on a high dosage, whilst it won't cure it will enhance ...I've always been a bit closed eyed to such things but was first introduced to it when I had a horse with navicular ( studies show also connected to the liver)

It certainly won't hurt to try it.


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## shortstuff99 (31 August 2021)

Vitamin E has been shown to help reduce liver disease in humans too I would try it as it is a lot cheaper then the veterinary liver supplements.


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## SusieT (31 August 2021)

If he's footy then shoeing seems like the obvious solution to assess if bruising could be contributing.


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## Michen (31 August 2021)

SusieT said:



			If he's footy then shoeing seems like the obvious solution to assess if bruising could be contributing.
		
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Yep I’m toying with the idea but shoeing seems to be sticky plastering the issue. He has flat feet, contracted heels and I’m still struggling to get on top of the thrush in front feet. I quite literally found the best farrier I could and was paying over £300 a set and whilst the feet didn’t get worse they didn’t get better either.

He’s not footy in boots, so it’s not an issue to boot him to keep him comfy, I just find it concerning that a horse who was previously fine out of shoes is now struggling so much on surfaces he didn’t beforehand.


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## Peregrine Falcon (31 August 2021)

Foot x-rays?


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## Michen (1 September 2021)

Peregrine Falcon said:



			Foot x-rays?
		
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He’s had them. Just shows flat feet. Fairly thin soles but not tragic.


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## shortstuff99 (1 September 2021)

Cushings/EMS test?


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## CanteringCarrot (1 September 2021)

ycbm said:



https://equinatural.co.uk/i/brewers-yeast-and-why-we-shouldn-t-feed-it-anymore

Damn it I've just bought a new 25kg sack!

Does anyone know if yeasacc is still OK? I guess not,  as it's the live version of exactly the same yeast.

😡
		
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Are you sure this isn't BS? As in mostly strung together with loose connections and misinterpretations of data?


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## wispagold (1 September 2021)

ycbm said:



https://equinatural.co.uk/i/brewers-yeast-and-why-we-shouldn-t-feed-it-anymore

Damn it I've just bought a new 25kg sack!

Does anyone know if yeasacc is still OK? I guess not,  as it's the live version of exactly the same yeast.

😡
		
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Might be worth doing a bit of research on this as not all yeasts are the same. I only know about yeasacc for ruminants, rather than horses, but it was specifically meant to increase numbers of fibre digesting and lactic acid utilising bacteria in the rumen. There are lots of papers published on this.


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## Michen (1 September 2021)

shortstuff99 said:



			Cushings/EMS test?
		
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Also done 🤣🤣


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## Michen (1 September 2021)

Thanks though appreciate all the suggestions. There’s got to be something I’m missing that explains this mess.

I’ve ordered equimins hoof mender to try instead, some vit e and will discuss hind gut support today wjth vet.


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## CanteringCarrot (1 September 2021)

I'm actually both intrigued and perplexed by this. My horse had some (but not all) liver numbers a little out of whack, but the vet wasn't concerned and he didn't show anything outward signs of a liver issue (we were doing a full blood panel anyway). I did feed him some herbs, which included milk thistle. 

I'm sort of not a "herbal" person but some do this every so often and believe it helps the liver deal with toxins, worming, grazing, etc. So I gave him some for 3 weeks, when we retested 2 weeks afterward, mostly because of my pure curiosity, liver was all normal. Could've been pure coincidence and maybe he just ate something in the field and that's why the first test was a bit wonky. I have no idea 😅

I don't know what would make a liver issue come and go because I just don't know enough about it. 

If everything else in his blood is in order, then that's really frustrating. I know some horses can require more than what is deemed adequate. Mine shows zinc and copper deficiency symptoms even when he gets the right amount, and iron level is appropriate/nothing is blocking the absorption. So he's supplemented supplemented a bit more and everything is fine.


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## ycbm (1 September 2021)

CanteringCarrot said:



			Are you sure this isn't BS? As in mostly strung together with loose connections and misinterpretations of data?
		
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No I'm not,  I'd like to see the research,  because I thought yea-sacc was the live version of the same yeast,  and the supplier is still using yea-sacc, which is definitely proven to increase both milk and beef yield in cattle.  And brewers great had already been brewed with, so went that would be worse is a bit beyond me.  
.


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## ycbm (1 September 2021)

Michen I'm really sorry about Bear, you must be at your wits end about him and almost wishing an alien space craft would swoop down and take him away. 
.


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## Michen (1 September 2021)

Haven’t got the bloods yet but just exchanged a few texts with my vet and we are going to re test for Cushings just in case!


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## Michen (1 September 2021)

ycbm said:



			Michen I'm really sorry about Bear, you must be at your wits end about him and almost wishing an alien space craft would swoop down and take him away.
.
		
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Thanks. Yes sort of to be honest. I wish more than anything the feet were more promising as that feels like the worst thing at the moment.


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## Cloball (1 September 2021)

GinaGeo said:



			So mine was 2 when his kicked off. I don’t think he got the colostrum needed (older mare) and he had a bit of a worm burden. It all culminated when he had a nasty cut that needed lots of antibiotics. And hey presto gut disaster. If you’ve heavily used antibiotics I wouldn’t be surprised at all if there are hind gut issues. The caecum is on the right and can cause right hind lameness.

I saw an improvement with the Equibiome Prebiotic. And then again once I’d tested and treated accordingly. The test does take about 6weeka and isn’t a quick fix. I’d probably try their prebiotic first and see if you see an improvement.

It all basically about the Gut Biome and the bacteria present. Bad bacteria can cause inflammation and other related issues.

This is the article I read re. Liver and gut.

https://www.equibiome.org/post/design-a-stunning-blog

It looks like there’s been a link in humans too:

https://gut.bmj.com/content/65/12/2035

Edited to say I was a sceptic. But was at my wits end. And had exhausted my vets suggestions.
		
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Malabsorption from the hind but might explain the footiness too?


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## ycbm (1 September 2021)

Michen said:



			Ok great thanks that could be another option then! Does it need to be the natural version I wonder?
		
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Vitamin E

No it doesn't have to be the natural version,  but in layman's terms,  the synthetic version contains left and right handed molecules and the horse can only use the right handed ones,  so you have to feed twice as much. 

It's half the cost, so attractive if you don't know you need to feed twice as much 
.


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## ycbm (1 September 2021)

Cloball said:



			Malabsorption from the hind but might explain the footiness too?
		
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The worst cracks I ever saw were on a horse who was finally diagnosed with a failure to absorb protein.  She was much better when fed a high protein diet. 
.


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## Michen (1 September 2021)

Where do I start though guys there’s so many supplements already! Equimins hoof mender, milk thistle , mycosorb (shall I drop this), about to add vit E and then a hind gut supp?


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## CanteringCarrot (1 September 2021)

Vitamin E does make a difference in many things. I have seen better results with natural, even though I did feed the higher amount with synthetic. So I just feed the natural now.

I'd also wait to see what the blood says.


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## Roxylola (1 September 2021)

Would it be worth speaking to a place like forage plus or similar to see if they could do you a tailored supplement - I think its them that do the forage testing and cone up with appropriate supplement fir your forage.
I might sound like a terrible terrible person now. Is he actually lame? Could it be that he's just a bit mechanically unsound? My gait isn't perfect when I run but I'm not in pain just a little wonky and stiff I certainly wouldn't pass a vetting but while a lameness work up/scans etc might show various issues with me I'm still functionally ok and pain free getting about and doing. Much as I understand your desire to get to the bottom of things I'd be tempted to crack on with some work and see how you get on, he'll either get worse in which case you might have some idea where to look next, or better. 
I've heard good things about alphabute (it's not bute) and had good experience with global herbs move free for a horse who just needed a bit of extra help. I know there is then the worry of masking pain, but pain free is pain free imo it's not like you're using it to go jump 140 tracks, you just want your nice little horse to have a happy life. Assuming you monitor and there's no change in the feet, liver etc I'd certainly be prepared to try it


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## Pinkvboots (1 September 2021)

One of mine has thin soles and feels everything his shod in a wide bearing aluminium shoe so not burnt on as he feels that as well, we often use silicone pads with them through certain times and they definitely help, he doesn't ever look really lame just slightly unlevel intermittently and worse on circles when he gets bad.

I have tried barefoot but his got odd front feet so boots are hard to get right certain lighter boots don't fit and the clumpy ones make him trip.

His fed the progressive earth platinum hoof supplement.

I don't really have any other advice regarding liver have never had any experience of that but thought I would share my horses feet experience and what we now do.


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## Michen (1 September 2021)

Roxylola said:



			Would it be worth speaking to a place like forage plus or similar to see if they could do you a tailored supplement - I think its them that do the forage testing and cone up with appropriate supplement fir your forage.
I might sound like a terrible terrible person now. Is he actually lame? Could it be that he's just a bit mechanically unsound? My gait isn't perfect when I run but I'm not in pain just a little wonky and stiff I certainly wouldn't pass a vetting but while a lameness work up/scans etc might show various issues with me I'm still functionally ok and pain free getting about and doing. Much as I understand your desire to get to the bottom of things I'd be tempted to crack on with some work and see how you get on, he'll either get worse in which case you might have some idea where to look next, or better.
I've heard good things about alphabute (it's not bute) and had good experience with global herbs move free for a horse who just needed a bit of extra help. I know there is then the worry of masking pain, but pain free is pain free imo it's not like you're using it to go jump 140 tracks, you just want your nice little horse to have a happy life. Assuming you monitor and there's no change in the feet, liver etc I'd certainly be prepared to try it
		
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Yep to be honest I’m not too worried about the lameness. It’s very very mild and the scan is great so I am confident he will be just fine on that front with the right rehab work etc.

I am more concerned about the liver and feet situ, feels like that is at breaking point. If I can’t get on top of whatever is making his feet so terrible (assuming liver) it just feels like a downhill spiral from there.

He is compromised in some way somewhere and I just can’t get on top of it to help. It would be diff if he had always struggled with his feet but he hasn’t- as in- he should be pretty comfy on most surfaces and growing some more hoof at least but just nothing.


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## Roxylola (1 September 2021)

Years ago, I got my horse some seaweed supplement - part of the "science" of it was that it helped the gut absorb better so the horse got more of what it needed. Honestly it was pre internet so maybe just hokum but my horse did well on it, coat and hoof quality improved and its one of those things that seems less popular now (perhaps because the science has improved on other things) but its still something I'd consider trying especially in a scenario like this where there's nothing really "wrong" except there is obviously something somewhere


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## HelenBack (1 September 2021)

This is in no way going to solve all of your problems and I have no idea on the liver front but as far as the feet and feed go, when my lad first went barefoot I did what I thought was the right thing and put him on one of the barefoot friendly supplements. His hoof quality actually declined, his coat looked dull and generally he just didn't look as good. I contacted an independent nutritionist who advised me to put him back on a pelleted balancer because she felt that his diet was likely lacking in enough quality protein. I took her advice and I have to say he does look and feel so much better on it. He does have Cushing's which means they need more protein so that might make a difference depending on the results of your retest for this. He is also a Connie and the only thing I will say is even at this I have had to accept that he will never have prize winning feet. They are still slow growing and he pretty much self trims with only a small amount of work on tarmac. They are loads better than they were though. So obviously I don't know what you feed now and as I said it's nowhere near the whole solution but I thought it worth mentioning in case it can help with the feet issue a little bit.

Also I'm sure you're on top of this but if the standard Cushing's test comes back negative again it might well be worth doing the more sensitive one or even just doing a Prascend trial to see if that helps with the footiness.


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## Michen (1 September 2021)

HelenBack said:



			This is in no way going to solve all of your problems and I have no idea on the liver front but as far as the feet and feed go, when my lad first went barefoot I did what I thought was the right thing and put him on one of the barefoot friendly supplements. His hoof quality actually declined, his coat looked dull and generally he just didn't look as good. I contacted an independent nutritionist who advised me to put him back on a pelleted balancer because she felt that his diet was likely lacking in enough quality protein. I took her advice and I have to say he does look and feel so much better on it. He does have Cushing's which means they need more protein so that might make a difference depending on the results of your retest for this. He is also a Connie and the only thing I will say is even at this I have had to accept that he will never have prize winning feet. They are still slow growing and he pretty much self trims with only a small amount of work on tarmac. They are loads better than they were though. So obviously I don't know what you feed now and as I said it's nowhere near the whole solution but I thought it worth mentioning in case it can help with the feet issue a little bit.

Also I'm sure you're on top of this but if the standard Cushing's test comes back negative again it might well be worth doing the more sensitive one or even just doing a Prascend trial to see if that helps with the footiness.
		
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Thanks so much for this. How old is your boy?


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## Tiddlypom (1 September 2021)

I know that it's just one more thing and spendy at £155, but I do recommend getting the equibiome hind gut biome analysis done. That way you'll find out rather than need to guess whether his hind gut is out of kilter.

The test has been recommended to me by both my chiro vet and my regular vet, who have seen good results based on dietary changes following on from the findings.

My own homebred now 10 yo's analysis this year showed that her gut biome was way out . She had a persistent mild RH offness despite competing at BE80 and training to 100. Wish I'd got the test done earlier, but I didn't even know of it.

If the hind gut is off, then the ramifications for the health of the whole horse are immense.


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## Michen (1 September 2021)

Tiddlypom said:



			I know that it's just one more thing and spendy at £155, but I do recommend getting the equibiome hind gut biome analysis done. That way you'll find out rather than need to guess whether his hind gut is out of kilter.

The test has been recoomended to me by both my chiro vet and my regular vet, who have seen good results based on dietary changes following on from the findings.

My own 10 yo's analysis this year showed that her gut biome was way out . She had a persistent mild RH offness despite competing at BE100 and training to 100. Wish I'd got the test done earlier, but I didn't even know of it.

If the hind gut is off, then the ramifications for the health of the whole horse are immense.
		
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Thanks. What's the treatment though, as maybe best just to spend the 150 on treating it and assuming it is an issue?


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## HelenBack (1 September 2021)

Michen said:



			Thanks so much for this. How old is your boy?
		
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He's 14 now and was 12 when he was diagnosed. He had no obvious symptoms other than being a bit flat and not quite himself. I just asked the vet to test for everything and that was what came back. I know Bear is a lot younger though but it's not unheard of in younger horses.


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## shortstuff99 (1 September 2021)

The liver can take a while to recover too, probably taken mine at least 6 months but his levels were very high.


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## GinaGeo (1 September 2021)

Michen said:



			Thanks. What's the treatment though, as maybe best just to spend the 150 on treating it and assuming it is an issue?
		
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It does depend on the test results.

But predominantly Oily Herbs (Rosemary, Sage and Oregano) and then the recommended Biome Feeds. Mine for example started on Biome 5,  progressed onto 4 and 6 and then maintenance on 7. Mine all get the oily herbs now.

I'm expecting one of my other's EMS Equibiome Test results back imminently, and expect that it will be quite different. He's been on their EMS Biome Feeds for about 6 weeks now.  Interestingly they've also linked Gut Biome to Equine Asthma, which this horse has had for about 10 years, I noticed the other day that he hasn't coughed in the last month. The links between gut and body are very interesting indeed.


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## chaps89 (1 September 2021)

Maybe a bit off the wall out there. But when my mare had liver trouble she also tested positive for Lyme disease, which can also present in soundness issues. May be absolutely unrelated and not at all what’s wrong with Bear but thought I’d put it out there.


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## Cloball (1 September 2021)

Liver disease can also effect protein metabolism in a whole host of ways and also fatty acid absorption which would in turn also effect the hoof (although my knowledge is mainly human based). Might be worth laying it all out for the vet like that? It does sound systemic to me.


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## Michen (1 September 2021)

chaps89 said:



			Maybe a bit off the wall out there. But when my mare had liver trouble she also tested positive for Lyme disease, which can also present in soundness issues. May be absolutely unrelated and not at all what’s wrong with Bear but thought I’d put it out there.
		
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Nope not at all and Lyme disease was something I spoke to my vet about before, we did rule it out for various reasons but I can't remember why. Will revisit it though!


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## Michen (1 September 2021)

Cloball said:



			Liver disease can also effect protein metabolism in a whole host of ways and also fatty acid absorption which would in turn also effect the hoof (although my knowledge is mainly human based). Might be worth laying it all out for the vet like that? It does sound systemic to me.
		
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I have to say, now that I think about it properly the onset of the excessive drinking and the subsequently diagnosed liver issues definitely coincided with the decline of his feet. He was barefoot I think March last year for a few months and did fine although I did eventually shoe him as he was starting autumn hunting soon ish and the feet weren't quite keeping up growth wise. Started struggling to keep shoes on October time, poor horn quality. By the following feb/march he was not quite right and then diagnostics etc started. His hind feet had bullnosed and he actually had a negative palmer angle (which was corrected, through x rays before and after, with a trim). I took the shoes off in June and we've barely had any growth ever since. His fronts do have *some*- there is a new angle coming down, but no where near what you'd expect. I can't say I can see much of a new angle in the hinds tbh.

He's never been fed much or anything in the way of hard feed and I wonder whether some good quality protein would be beneficial.


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## Cloball (1 September 2021)

A high protein diet might help but it would suggest he had a worse degree of chronic liver damage how much would be difficult to know without another biopsy.


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## Michen (1 September 2021)

Cloball said:



			A high protein diet might help but it would suggest he had a worse degree of chronic liver damage how much would be difficult to know without another biopsy.
		
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We were intending to biopsy again this week but I'm not sure what point there is. Vet mentioned steroids as another treatment option but that he wasn't keen on the idea.


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## HelenBack (1 September 2021)

I just had a very quick look online and some of the information on vets' websites says that horses with Cushing's can develop liver problems and / or have raised liver enzymes. Increased peeing is definitely a symptom of Cushing's but obviously could be other things as well.

I hope you get some answers as it sounds very frustrating for you. If it was Cushing's it would be a bit of a PITA in a young horse but hopefully at least easily manageable for a good long while with Prascend.


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## Cloball (1 September 2021)

I suppose it would, for me, to see how much chronic damage there was compared to the previous. If it is the same or better then it might not explain the whole picture. If it's worse how much worse? I suppose with the liver/ hind gut/ protein metabolism it becomes a bit chicken and egg.


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## Michen (1 September 2021)

Yep true. He's definitely not fat though, in fact he has come back looking brill having been on a bare paddock with hay supplemented. Shiny coat etc.

Arghhhhhhhhhh!!!!

I could spend another grand on this and get no further forward. It sounds horrible but I almost wish there was something worse wrong as it would then make it easier to just have him PTS. As it is we are just in this limbo of lots of bad things but nothing THAT bad.


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## HelenBack (1 September 2021)

Was the fat comment in relation to Cushing's or the liver damage comments? If the Cushing's then lots of Cushing's horses aren't fat and some struggle to maintain weight. Mine used to be on conditioning mix when I was competing him and before we got the diagnosis and would still sometimes look a bit poor.

I do feel for you and it must be so much more frustrating when he was meant to be a project to bring on and never a permanent part of your life. I think it's natural to have the thoughts around PTS when there's lots going on but it must be harder to decide where to draw the line when it's your second horse and not your main man. Is it worth having a very practical conversation with the vet about options and when to say you've tried everything you can without bankrupting yourself and having a nervous breakdown in the process?


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## nutjob (1 September 2021)

I had a horse many years ago who developed a severe liver issue.  He started a weird headshaking, standing strangely with a back leg raised sticking out backwards arching his back and then really shaking his head violently.  He was given steroids initially as it was thought to be some sort of pollen allergy, it did help but then he lost weight and became dull and lethargic at which point he was blood tested which showed it was the liver.  There was never any cause identified and my other horse was fine.  He made a full recovery after 3 weeks on some sort of tonic from the vet (ingredients unknown) and never relapsed.  I changed hay for marksway horsehage in case it was something random in the hay and gave him B group vitamins and vit C, there was limited info and supplements around at the time.  I discussed a liver biopsy but at that time it wasn’t going to make any difference to the treatment or outcome and there was a concern that depending on where the sample came from it might not be representative.  Before paying for it I would check it will tell you something useful.
If you are feeding mycosorb is there a chance that it can absorb some essential micronutrients as well as the toxins which could impact the feet, how specific is it?
Looking positively my horse was far worse than yours and he lived another 8 years symptom free before he had a heart attack.


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## AandK (1 September 2021)

Sorry you're having issues with Bear, it's such a nightmare when it's not an obvious cause. I would agree with the other posters who say it sounds systemic. 
Not quite the same but similar ish, my 8yo TB wasn't looking as good as he should have last year despite lots of grass and feed. He had a lameness issue late summer, but that was in front and turned out to be a keratoma which he had removed under GA in November last year. After the op, I was throwing huge amounts of feed at him and again, he was not thriving like he should. So I did a bit of reading and decided to do a sort of full body detox, which I got from EquiNatural (I get minerals and yea-sacc from them). My thinking was, that he had been through a lot since I got him in March 19. In the September he had an arthroscopy for a hock injury, 48hrs after coming home he had to go back into the hospital with a very badly impacted caecum. He also suffered nerve damage to his tail after the op and was not able to eat hay until he could lift his tail again, which took a few months. In June last year he cut his leg which required more antibiotics, and then the op for the keratoma in the Nov of last year. I think his system/gut/liver had been stressed by all this and meant his body was not able to absorb what he needed from his food. I did the detox in Jan/Feb this year and I do believe it has helped him. He has looked in great condition since, with a lot less food than he has ever had. He also has a supplement with milk thistle/marshmallow/yea-sacc as ongoing support.
I think in your shoes I would be trying something similar, or going down the Equibiome route. I hope you can get him back to his old self soon.


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## Michen (1 September 2021)

HelenBack said:



			Was the fat comment in relation to Cushing's or the liver damage comments? If the Cushing's then lots of Cushing's horses aren't fat and some struggle to maintain weight. Mine used to be on conditioning mix when I was competing him and before we got the diagnosis and would still sometimes look a bit poor.

I do feel for you and it must be so much more frustrating when he was meant to be a project to bring on and never a permanent part of your life. I think it's natural to have the thoughts around PTS when there's lots going on but it must be harder to decide where to draw the line when it's your second horse and not your main man. Is it worth having a very practical conversation with the vet about options and when to say you've tried everything you can without bankrupting yourself and having a nervous breakdown in the process?
		
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The cushings really!

Thanks, I sort of did yesterday but we sort of laughed because we both know that lots of people wouldn't think there was anything wrong- so it would seem mad to even consider it- If I stuck some shoes on him and got him back in work I honestly think he'd be so easily sellable.

- Lameness is almost not visible, he's probably still sounder than most horses.
- Feet if they were shod you'd just think oh not great feet but never mind- how many horses do we know going around with those!
- Drinking would go completely unnoticed if we had auto drinkers

And he looks lovely. Shiny, healthy, bright.

But, I can't ignore what I know, so a moot point.


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## tristar (1 September 2021)

Michen said:



			I have to say, now that I think about it properly the onset of the excessive drinking and the subsequently diagnosed liver issues definitely coincided with the decline of his feet. He was barefoot I think March last year for a few months and did fine although I did eventually shoe him as he was starting autumn hunting soon ish and the feet weren't quite keeping up growth wise. Started struggling to keep shoes on October time, poor horn quality. By the following feb/march he was not quite right and then diagnostics etc started. His hind feet had bullnosed and he actually had a negative palmer angle (which was corrected, through x rays before and after, with a trim). I took the shoes off in June and we've barely had any growth ever since. His fronts do have *some*- there is a new angle coming down, but no where near what you'd expect. I can't say I can see much of a new angle in the hinds tbh.

He's never been fed much or anything in the way of hard feed and I wonder whether some good quality protein would be beneficial.
		
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does he ever have a broad spectrum vit min supplement?

some horses  i have had benefited greatly from seleneviteE supplement, and ok i do know it has iron in it, but, have seen remarkable changes in a short period, in fact all ours are on it now with fast fibre and oats, and my god they are all firing at full blast, i do sometimes give them a break from it for a few weeks

some horses really do need more than hay and grass, sometimes you need to just tip the balance of the system it can be very subtle yet give dramatic results


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## Michen (1 September 2021)

tristar said:



			does he ever have a broad spectrum vit min supplement?

some horses  i have had benefited greatly from seleneviteE supplement, and ok i do know it has iron in it, but, have seen remarkable changes in a short period, in fact all ours are on it now with fast fibre and oats, and my god they are all firing at full blast, i do sometimes give them a break from it for a few weeks

some horses really do need more than hay and grass, sometimes you need to just tip the balance of the system it can be very subtle yet give dramatic results
		
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sorry yes he’s always had something. Ranged from equimins to spillers lite to pro hoof over the last year or so


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## HelenBack (1 September 2021)

Michen said:



			But, I can't ignore what I know, so a moot point.
		
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And you're clearly a very conscientious owner who will go much farther for her horses than many people would. I know I would be doing the same in your position but it does make it much harder for you sadly. I do think you're doing the right thing though, lots of people would sell him on and hopefully he would be fine but if it did all unravel down the line he might not have somebody as kind as you are to look out for him.


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## tristar (1 September 2021)

Michen said:



			sorry yes he’s always had something. Ranged from equimins to spillers lite to pro hoof over the last year or so
		
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i`m so sorry you and him are going through all this.

i must say i`ve tried all sorts over the years some cost a fortune and never gave the results of sel e   and fast fibre which has a gut supplement as well


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## LEC (1 September 2021)

I had a horse who just looked rubbish last year - kept having allergic reactions, chronic UV in her eyes which we were panicking about that we wouldn't be able to manage and would mean PTS, looked a bit rubbish but nothing really off, wasn't quite sound. We discussed doing the Equibiome test but the science was poor behind it so decided to spend £30 on a the science supplements gut balancer instead as had nothing to lose. It has completely changed the horse. This year she is almost too fat and has never been a fat horse. She looks amazing. 

I like the look of Richard Maxwell one as well but it was very expensive. I am a big convert to getting the gut right.


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## southerncomfort (1 September 2021)

Probably daft/irrelevant but I recently read an article ( sorry can't remember where) that said that in humans their is a link between stress/anxiety/high emotions and liver disease. 

I think you said he's pretty laid back so may not apply, but though it worth mentioning.


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## Michen (1 September 2021)

southerncomfort said:



			Probably daft/irrelevant but I recently read an article ( sorry can't remember where) that said that in humans their is a link between stress/anxiety/high emotions and liver disease.

I think you said he's pretty laid back so may not apply, but though it worth mentioning.
		
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Yeah he used to be quite internally stressed but he’s very chilled these days!


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## Michen (1 September 2021)

Oh FGS Bear. The bloods are normal! So now he's drinking excessively but it's not the liver. Previously every time the drinking has started it's shown in his bloods.

Vet back later to take urine sample and more bloods for cushings test just to be sure.

We had quite a good chat and he's going to have a think about next steps. We do think that it could be he's had a "rubbish" year. Long stints of antibiotics, liver enzymes that have at times been high and for quite a while, so maybe that is what we are seeing in his feet and that they will improve as his body settles.

I think the equibiome thing will be well worth doing I just find the 8-10 weeks waiting for results a bit frustrating. In the mean time I'm wondering whether to put him on Succeed or the equibiome prebiotic.


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## Michen (1 September 2021)

LEC said:



			I had a horse who just looked rubbish last year - kept having allergic reactions, chronic UV in her eyes which we were panicking about that we wouldn't be able to manage and would mean PTS, looked a bit rubbish but nothing really off, wasn't quite sound. We discussed doing the Equibiome test but the science was poor behind it so decided to spend £30 on a the science supplements gut balancer instead as had nothing to lose. It has completely changed the horse. This year she is almost too fat and has never been a fat horse. She looks amazing.

I like the look of Richard Maxwell one as well but it was very expensive. I am a big convert to getting the gut right.
		
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Thanks for that. I am definitely going to add a gut supplement just need to work out what one! Maybe all of them


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## NinjaPony (1 September 2021)

Think you are right to test for Cushings, excess drinking was the first symptom for mine. Good news that the liver is ok, but obviously frustrating not to get any answers! Could be worth sticking him on a higher protein diet that is Cushings friendly, just in case, as it won’t do him any harm either way as the diet is low sugar and low starch. There is a Cushings website that is very helpful. Hope you get some answers soon!


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## Michen (1 September 2021)

Right I've just ordered Ration Plus from forage plus- bit off piste from the suggestions on here but I had an order in anyway so was easy to add. It's pre and probiotics.


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## Michen (1 September 2021)

NinjaPony said:



			Think you are right to test for Cushings, excess drinking was the first symptom for mine. Good news that the liver is ok, but obviously frustrating not to get any answers! Could be worth sticking him on a higher protein diet that is Cushings friendly, just in case, as it won’t do him any harm either way as the diet is low sugar and low starch. There is a Cushings website that is very helpful. Hope you get some answers soon!
		
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Thank you yes I did nearly order some whey protein from FP too, I think I'm just going to try one thing at a time though as adding a bunch of supplements all at once is going to end up a bit bonkers. Any suggestions on good quality bucket feed protein? Also tricky because liver diet you have to be careful with protein I believe!


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## PurBee (1 September 2021)

Whenever a horse presents with systemic issues, i reach for probiotics at the very get-go. 
When the gut is out of balance (all sorts of reasons for this) then many other symptoms can begin to slowly show. So just as a initial boost to the system, probiotics are my number 1 supplement.

I’ve been impressed with protexin gut balancer -yet its a simple formula and for a really head-scratching case i’d want more strains of beneficial bacteria. Pre and pro-biotics are good to ise alongside each other. Prebiotics feed beneficial bacteria, whereas probiotics are beneficial bacteria.
Protexin relieved my gelding of a weird case of whole body hives, i couldnt believe how effective it was.

Also for liver health - have you tried milk thistle yet? I’d definitely add a generous dose of that to any horse with suspected liver issues.

Not sure if already mentioned as havent read the last few pages - Also consider liver issues due to potential fluke parasites. They are large parasites that love to house themselves in the tubes going into the liver - so can cause liver congestion issues and subsequent symptoms, and affect all sorts of liver functions.
The equine world online overall doesnt think horses can suffer with them, yet a few studies show they can, so its a remote possibility, yet certainly not impossible. I dont know if theres a test for liver flukes and how accurate it is, but i’ve looked at stats for ireland sheep farmers suffering with flukes and theyre really high for flukes, whereas before studying they *thought* liver flukes were a rare issue in sheep. Now standard practice is to drench for flukes annually in sheep.

A very good visual scan of the liver can sometimes show flukes laying within in the ducts of the liver.

Would your vet be onboard with treating for liver flukes? I’d be inclined to treat for them in a horse with liver issues.

Flukes can last/grow for years in the liver - not necessarily havent been ‘caught’ while in your ownership. They tend to be associated with damper climates/grazing land. The snails that transport part of fluke life-cycle prefer damper lands. 
Any fields with a pond/water hole are a higher risk for liver flukes.


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## Michen (1 September 2021)

PurBee said:



			Whenever a horse presents with systemic issues, i reach for probiotics at the very get-go.
When the gut is out of balance (all sorts of reasons for this) then many other symptoms can begin to slowly show. So just as a initial boost to the system, probiotics are my number 1 supplement.

I’ve been impressed with protexin gut balancer -yet its a simple formula and for a really head-scratching case i’d want more strains of beneficial bacteria. Pre and pro-biotics are good to ise alongside each other. Prebiotics feed beneficial bacteria, whereas probiotics are beneficial bacteria.
Protexin relieved my gelding of a weird case of whole body hives, i couldnt believe how effective it was.

Also for liver health - have you tried milk thistle yet? I’d definitely add a generous dose of that to any horse with suspected liver issues.

Not sure if already mentioned as havent read the last few pages - Also consider liver issues due to potential fluke parasites. They are large parasites that love to house themselves in the tubes going into the liver - so can cause liver congestion issues and subsequent symptoms, and affect all sorts of liver functions.
The equine world online overall doesnt think horses can suffer with them, yet a few studies show they can, so its a remote possibility, yet certainly not impossible. I dont know if theres a test for liver flukes and how accurate it is, but i’ve looked at stats for ireland sheep farmers suffering with flukes and theyre really high for flukes, whereas before studying they *thought* liver flukes were a rare issue in sheep. Now standard practice is to drench for flukes annually in sheep.

A very good visual scan of the liver can sometimes show flukes laying within in the ducts of the liver.

Would your vet be onboard with treating for liver flukes? I’d be inclined to treat for them in a horse with liver issues.

Flukes can last/grow for years in the liver - not necessarily havent been ‘caught’ while in your ownership. They tend to be associated with damper climates/grazing land. The snails that transport part of fluke life-cycle prefer damper lands.
Any fields with a pond/water hole are a higher risk for liver flukes.
		
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Already been on milk thistle.

fully tested for fluke including the more reliable one which was sent off to specific lab.  Vet said the fluke specific wormer that works against Ireland related fluke (where he came from last year) is not a drug you want to give without good cause, can have some nasty side effects apparently.

thanks for taking the time to type all that out, appreciated.


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## Tiddlypom (1 September 2021)

I definitely recommend feeding the Equibiome pre biotic while waiting for the Equibiome results. My mare with the hind gut issues picked up a lot just on that. She'd been on Succeed for over a year by then but it wasn't working as well for her, and she'd gone grumpy again. Her awful biome profile was taken when she was still on the Succeed, so while it undoubtedly helped to a degree, it didn't address the prime imbalance.

The exact alterations to the diet do depend on which bacteria need encouraging and which need knocking back. My mare had hardly any good bugs and lots of bad ones .


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## PurBee (1 September 2021)

Michen said:



			Already been on milk thistle.

fully tested for fluke including the more reliable one which was sent off to specific lab.  Vet said the fluke specific wormer that works against Ireland related fluke (where he came from last year) is not a drug you want to give without good cause, can have some nasty side effects apparently.

thanks for taking the time to type all that out, appreciated.
		
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you have an excellent vet on your side! 🙂

That’s really good thats been investigated and eliminated.

I’d look to iron levels - the blood test for iron is 2 fold - there’s circulating levels of iron tested and ‘stored’ levels of iron to test for. 
Blood circulating can show ‘normal’ while stored ferritin levels can be sky high. 
High iron levels can cause liver dysfunction and normally is not presented as an ‘acute’ illness case due to the liver being so resilient. High iron liver overload in horses is usually from the water source, and/or main feed of forage being high in iron, and iron levels slowly over months/years accumulate to cause non-specific symptoms until symptoms cluster.

The true test for iron liver issues seem to be biopsies or scans to look for iron damaged lesions/fibroids.

Forageplus have an article about their testing of uk and irish forage being consistently high in iron. I recently saw a haylage test sheet from a well known supplier with massive iron levels, and barely any calcium/zinc/copper to balance out the high iron. 
If a horse is on water too which is high in iron, then a slow accumulation can be occurring with symptoms rarely showing until liver functions become adversely affected by it.
Have you had the water at the yard tested? Your main forage/hay/main paddock grass tested?


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## NinjaPony (1 September 2021)

Re protein, I just use a couple of handful of Dengie Alfalfa pellets in a treatball (could add them soaked to feed) for my pony as a protein source. They are 16 mj protein, 5 sugar, 3 starch. Not all horses get on with alfalfa but it works for my pony, and it’s a nice simple source of protein for him without adding lots of extra feed or calories.

Lots of great suggestions/advice on this thread, HHO is a real mine of knowledge.


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## Roxylola (1 September 2021)

Its so predictable on here but I'm going to say it anyway, ulcers? The elevated drinking I'm sure can be to try and soothe their acidy stomach (I might have imagined that). I know he's a happy dude now, but as he wasn't when you got him could they have happened then and current management has them still there but not getting worse? I've done 0 research but it makes sense in my head that there might be poor absorption of nutrients if the gut health is not right which could then give liver issues and poor hoof growth. If you haven't scoped it might be worth a try - the scoping is the least expensive bit


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## Lammy (1 September 2021)

I’ve got nothing really to suggest other than a pre/probiotic which others have done.

Just wanted to say I sympathise with you! Hope the root cause can be found and it’s easily treatable 🤞🏼


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## Michen (1 September 2021)

Roxylola said:



			Its so predictable on here but I'm going to say it anyway, ulcers? The elevated drinking I'm sure can be to try and soothe their acidy stomach (I might have imagined that). I know he's a happy dude now, but as he wasn't when you got him could they have happened then and current management has them still there but not getting worse? I've done 0 research but it makes sense in my head that there might be poor absorption of nutrients if the gut health is not right which could then give liver issues and poor hoof growth. If you haven't scoped it might be worth a try - the scoping is the least expensive bit
		
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Potentially but honestly I'd need more to go on than that before opening up the can of worms that involves scoping, insurance exclusions etc. Not remotely girthy, great coat, good weight, has spent all summer in a field chilling.

I wouldn't completely discount it but it would have to be a very serious last resort for me to go down that road.

Tbh, I'm fully expecting to go up to the yard later and find the idiot hasn't touched his water and just decided he liked his new hot pink bucket on homecoming enough to down it.


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## Roxylola (1 September 2021)

You never said it was a brand new hot pink bucket - that changes everything, anyone in their right mind would drink up from one of those!
Seriously though, hopefully the new bits you've got him sort him out, he seems such a nice dude


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## Michen (1 September 2021)

Roxylola said:



			You never said it was a brand new hot pink bucket - that changes everything, anyone in their right mind would drink up from one of those!
Seriously though, hopefully the new bits you've got him sort him out, he seems such a nice dude
		
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Well it was a stress purchase as it doesn't match his feed buckets but the shop didn't have baby blue. That'll teach me.

I'm sure Bear will be just fine one way or another generally being an ungrateful but very cute fluffy burden


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## tristar (1 September 2021)

calm and condition  and fast fibre contain protexin for the gut, i swear by that stuff



has he been dosed for tapeworm?


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## Michen (1 September 2021)

tristar said:



			calm and condition  and fast fibre contain protexin for the gut, i swear by that stuff



has he been dosed for tapeworm?
		
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He was on a little FF as a carrier this summer so good to know!

Yep all wormed and counted and even saliva tested as I love nothing more than spending money with the vet


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## shortstuff99 (1 September 2021)

How much did he drink when you first got him to now? One of mine is a very big drinker but has been since birth so is just them, could be the same?


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## Michen (1 September 2021)

shortstuff99 said:



			How much did he drink when you first got him to now? One of mine is a very big drinker but has been since birth so is just them, could be the same?
		
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He used to drink normally and then he started downing an entire tub trug in half a day. Every time he started downing water the liver enzymes on bloods were up. Then they'd go and he'd stop.

He's only been home 48 hours but I'd stabled him for 24 and he drank 2.5 whole tub trugs which was what prompted me to panic and pull bloods- but maybe he just happened to be enjoying being back in his stable a little too much and it was a total red herring!


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## Pinkvboots (1 September 2021)

One of mine guzzles his stable water I think he just likes it better than the field water so waits until he comes in.

A really cheap thing I have used for years for various things often after antibiotics or some sort of illness or even just season change is Global Herbs Restore, I just use it for a few months at a time when I think they just need a little pick up, might be worth a try is not expensive.


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## Michen (1 September 2021)

Pinkvboots said:



			One of mine guzzles his stable water I think he just likes it better than the field water so waits until he comes in.

A really cheap thing I have used for years for various things often after antibiotics or some sort of illness or even just season change is Global Herbs Restore, I just use it for a few months at a time when I think they just need a little pick up, might be worth a try is not expensive.
		
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Yeah this has been directly linked to his liver through through testing when it happens.
Thanks!


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## Marigold4 (1 September 2021)

Reading with interest as my 3 had raised liver enzymes last winter/spring and the two that have been here the longest have thin hoof walls. The one with highest levels by a long way had only just arrived and has great feet. I don't know how long the liver thing had been going on for though as I tested on a hunch that something was wrong although all 3 Had no obvious symptoms. So I'm not sure about liver enzymes causing poor hoof quality but could be symptoms from the same thing. Liver enzymes are coming down to normal but it is taking time. I am now supplementing copper and zinc in the hope that it improves hoof wall quality but only 6 weeks of that so too early to tell. My grazing is high in molybdenum according to analysis and this blocks copper and zinc. I've also been on a hoof trimming course so I can rasp inbetween trims and keep hooves in tip top condition throughout the cycle. 

PS Another person locally had same thing happen with liver enzymes and same vet. No obvious cause.


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## Michen (1 September 2021)

Whose the idiot here then. Bucket half full after 12 hours. Vet has still come to take Cushing bloods though!


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## Charley657 (1 September 2021)

Read this thread from start to finish yesterday, think I finished around 1am  The ups, downs and twists made me determined to finish it.  You were going to sell Bear, he was definitely being sold, the ad was up but I knew there couldn't be this many entries if you had.   Then I thought something awful had happened to Bogle but nope.  So glad he is back at work and making you happy.  They are both beautiful.


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## Pinkvboots (1 September 2021)

Michen said:



			Yeah this has been directly linked to his liver through through testing when it happens.
Thanks!
		
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Oh yeah I know I just thought as he had been living out he might have just liked the water in the stable seen as his bloods were normal this time.


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## Michen (1 September 2021)

Pinkvboots said:



			Oh yeah I know I just thought as he had been living out he might have just liked the water in the stable seen as his bloods were normal this time.
		
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that is such a good point!!


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## Michen (1 September 2021)

Ok here goes. I couldn’t bear to post these because to be honest I feel embarrassed. I don’t know how they got into this state and how I allowed it.

ignore the wonky hairline as I trimmed it to see the growth better.

So front foot 10 weeks ago vs today (thrush is being aggressively treated). Sole pic is today though and you can see how flat and contacted they are. There is an angle change though.. clutching at straws.












And then the hinds which upset me most. If anything the heels look more under run although the surface isn’t as level as the indoor pic.  Though he has lovely big frogs. 🤦‍♀️


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## Michen (1 September 2021)

So you can see why I’m stressing. But I’m just trying to remind myself he’s had a lot going on in the last year and hopefully I can improve these. Cleantrax soak tomorrow.

On the plus side he had his first little walk hack all booted and was a happy, forward angel. I wouldn’t choose to be riding until his feet are better but it’s much better control wise than long reining (two person job and I can’t always have another person) or leading and the last thing I want is another stunt like he pulled a few months ago and him getting loose on his rehabbing ligament.


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## ycbm (1 September 2021)

They just aren't typical Connie feet,  are they Michen?  I don't know what's going on,  but something is.  
.


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## Michen (1 September 2021)

ycbm said:



			They just aren't typical Connie feet,  are they Michen?  I don't know what's going on,  but something is. 
.
		
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Actually quite a few of the connies I know have rubbish feet- but Bear does take it to a new level.

I do think if they continued down at their new angle they would be much improved though. If I can get on top of the thrush etc then hopefully the contraction will start to improve too.


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## shortstuff99 (1 September 2021)

He has been tested clear for HWSD I assume?


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## Michen (1 September 2021)

shortstuff99 said:



			He has been tested clear for HWSD I assume?
		
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Yep he’s of the age where they have to, plus never had any issue with separation as such.


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## Michen (1 September 2021)

Charley657 said:



			Read this thread from start to finish yesterday, think I finished around 1am  The ups, downs and twists made me determined to finish it.  You were going to sell Bear, he was definitely being sold, the ad was up but I knew there couldn't be this many entries if you had.   Then I thought something awful had happened to Bogle but nope.  So glad he is back at work and making you happy.  They are both beautiful.
		
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Oh wow lol!! One day I’ll hopefully go back and read it and laugh, ideally when both horses are 100% sound and fit at the same time for longer than five minutes 😃

Thanks so much, they both bring plenty of joy along with the stress. Ok well Bog brings a bit more but Bear makes up for it with affection 😂😂😂


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## PurBee (1 September 2021)

Michen said:



			Ok here goes. I couldn’t bear to post these because to be honest I feel embarrassed. I don’t know how they got into this state and how I allowed it.

ignore the wonky hairline as I trimmed it to see the growth better.

So front foot 10 weeks ago vs today (thrush is being aggressively treated). Sole pic is today though and you can see how flat and contacted they are. There is an angle change though.. clutching at straws.






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And then the hinds which upset me most. If anything the heels look more under run although the surface isn’t as level as the indoor pic.  Though he has lovely big frogs. 🤦‍♀️

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The sole shot reminds me of similar pathology of my mare’s fronts - long stretched slender frog, prone to thrush despite dry environment /bedding etc - bars weak and rounding, not functioning as they should.

I, at the time, followed ‘hoof mapping’ by an well-know. american farriery company…my mind is blank on their name! However - this is difficult to explain but they pointed out that a long stretched frog isnt the true apex of the real frog within the hoof and particularly the tip of the frog get’s stretched at the sole level, which then impacts sole growth around this ‘false frog tip’ and continued to cause a long tie, forward heel shape.- so via ‘hoof mapping protocol’ measurements are taken to show where p3 currently is and where it should end up. The ‘false frog stretched tip ’ gets trimmed back.

I’ve found pictures to illustrate what i mean on the laminitis site under ‘true apex of frog’ section:

https://www.thelaminitissite.org/feet-a-z.html

When i trimmed the tip of my mares long stretched frogs back to where they should be, within weeks her sole and foot shape finally altered! - This was after a couple of years of battling long toes, underslung heels, trimming conservative;y for flat thin soles too etc. 
The frog was holding the shape in place. Before i was trimming toes back, heels back, and the forward slung shape would regrow….sooo frustrating. Only when i read about hoof mapping and trimming that stretched tip of frog back did her hoof shape ‘ping back’ to more upright! Its like her long frogs was keeping everything in a long oval shape. Also i noted when i finally trimmed the tip of the frog back she chewed a fair bit and walked off after that trim really striding well and confidently on my compact hardcore yard surface, with stones here and there. 

After that trim of the elongated frog tip i knew i had jumped a hurdle with her foot pathology, thanks to the online hoof mapping guides.

It‘s worth discussing hoof mapping with your farrier/trimmer and trimming that frog tip back. I dont have pics on this machine of my mares frogs but they were insanely long like bear’s is showing, and even skinnier at the heel than bears. Terrible frogs she had! Hoof mapping literally brought her long oval foot shape back to round normal.


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## Michen (1 September 2021)

PurBee said:



			The sole shot reminds me of similar pathology of my mare’s fronts - long stretched slender frog, prone to thrush despite dry environment /bedding etc - bars weak and rounding, not functioning as they should.

I, at the time, followed ‘hoof mapping’ by an well-know. american farriery company…my mind is blank on their name! However - this is difficult to explain but they pointed out that a long stretched frog isnt the true apex of the real frog within the hoof and particularly the tip of the frog get’s stretched at the sole level, which then impacts sole growth around this ‘false frog tip’ and continued to cause a long tie, forward heel shape.- so via ‘hoof mapping protocol’ measurements are taken to show where p3 currently is and where it should end up. The ‘false frog stretched tip ’ gets trimmed back.

I’ve found pictures to illustrate what i mean on the laminitis site under ‘true apex of frog’ section:

https://www.thelaminitissite.org/feet-a-z.html

When i trimmed the tip of my mares long stretched frogs back to where they should be, within weeks her sole and foot shape finally altered! - This was after a couple of years of battling long toes, underslung heels, trimming conservative;y for flat thin soles too etc.
The frog was holding the shape in place. Before i was trimming toes back, heels back, and the forward slung shape would regrow….sooo frustrating. Only when i read about hoof mapping and trimming that stretched tip of frog back did her hoof shape ‘ping back’ to more upright! Its like her long frogs was keeping everything in a long oval shape. Also i noted when i finally trimmed the tip of the frog back she chewed a fair bit and walked off after that trim really striding well and confidently on my compact hardcore yard surface, with stones here and there.

After that trim of the elongated frog tip i knew i had jumped a hurdle with her foot pathology, thanks to the online hoof mapping guides.

It‘s worth discussing hoof mapping with your farrier/trimmer and trimming that frog tip back. I dont have pics on this machine of my mares frogs but they were insanely long like bear’s is showing, and even skinnier at the heel than bears. Terrible frogs she had! Hoof mapping literally brought her long oval foot shape back to round normal.
		
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That is so interesting thanks! I’ve been following the Equine documentalist and there is a new hoof mapping app which looks quite cool as well. How much did you trim off? Surly you can’t just remove a whole section of it though (however little)- only the top bit?


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## Michen (1 September 2021)

PurBee that article is so interesting!!!

I am definitely going to discuss this with my vet and farrier. It looks so drastic, but I can completely understand it.

Did you do this yourself? Or can you recommend a very good trimmer either farrier or EP who helped you?


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## TPO (1 September 2021)

I know you're tackling the thrush with cleantrax etc but I highly recommend Red Horse field paste.

I had a horse with horrendous thrush ironically due to the vet insistence that he  have a hospital plate or a pad fitted. Anyway, packing the central sulcus and around the frog with field paste made a massive difference within 48hrs.

I use it adhoc and anything remotely suspicious gone in 24hrs.


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## Michen (1 September 2021)

TPO said:



			I know you're tackling the thrush with cleantrax etc but I highly recommend Red Horse field paste.

I had a horse with horrendous thrush ironically due to the vet insistence that he  have a hospital plate or a pad fitted. Anyway, packing the central sulcus and around the frog with field paste made a massive difference within 48hrs.

I use it adhoc and anything remotely suspicious gone in 24hrs.
		
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Ive tried the field paste most of this summer (albeit I could only see him a couple of times a week) so have recently switched to hoof stuff instead. I’ve also got artimud, sole cleanse and sole paint (although I only use that on Bog!).

I figured the hoof stuff was better as it was at least staying in longer between visits than the field paste!


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## PurBee (1 September 2021)

Michen said:



			That is so interesting thanks! I’ve been following the Equine documentalist and there is a new hoof mapping app which looks quite cool as well. How much did you trim off? Surly you can’t just remove a whole section of it though (however little)- only the top bit?
		
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The link i gave you shows a really badly laminitic foot, and that frog tip trim was drastic -bear won’t need that degree of tip trim -  they could only confidently trim that much with radiographs showing the internal structures. 
Yet it gives the general idea of the principles of how a long stretched frog can impeded foot shape growth. Because if you have all that excess apex frog tissue pressing onto sole it’ll affect sole growth, circulation of blood under the sole specifically where the extra long tip is pressing.

I notice on Bear’s sole also theres concavity right around the apec of the frog, then flattens out. My mare had that partial concavity too. Worse than bears for flatness - he has some concavity. Almost looks like someone has knifed out concavity there, but it’s naturally produced. 

When i trimmed my mare i literally did it mm by mm…starting at the tip. I took off around 8mm because i kept finding sole material underneath. When i found frog material underneath i stopped. Where i stopped just so happened to coincide with a little chunk missing out of her frog just behind the apex - so in a way her foot/frog was trying to detach that excess tip but due to it being so dense it remained.

I had watched many videos from farriers and trimmers doing the mapping and trim and felt confident to attempt to investigate her frog tip. Im so thankful i did, we turned a corner with her hooves after that! My farriers previously would rasp walls and that was it. I was disappointed with their feet and so years ago now, delved into learning foot structures, trimming etc mainly from pete ramey and then others...so i had been trimming them for a long time and felt confident to map her hoof and investigate frog apex trim. 
I wouldnt recommend anyone do it without knowing the hoof structures inside out and having confidence/experience with tools etc! 

Now i’ve done it and understand the principles a trimmer and farrier will be able to investigate whether the tip is over sole material by cutting off literally a mm of tip material. There’s either frog under there or sole. 1mm removal doesnt hurt the horse. Yet there’s no need to guess when you have a foot infront of you that should be round and its more oval with a long toe and very long frog - that stretched forward pathology is easy to spot.

Bear may not need an apex trim - i am only going by 1 photo, which looks long oval rather than round with subsequent long frog.  He may just need toes taking back and that’ll help de-contract heels, widen frog heel, and all is well.
His frog tip looks ‘strong’ i will say that, despite long - maybe the camera angle /lens is distorting the true hoof shape - only with hoof in hand can that be fully assessed. 
 The ‘trim toe back’ approach i did with my mare to decontract her heels, and help p3 breakover - over and over i did that, and her fronts would not let go of that long toe area until i approached a frog apex trim. So if his front feet have always been oval, consider hoof mapping protocols and frog tip trim. It’s good to have that bit of knowledge in your arsenal about frog tips when dealing with the long toe/ underslung heels type of hooves.


You want a good trimmer who you can discuss hoof mapping with - many EP folks should have heard of it and a fair few farriers i imagine. There’s youtube videos on ‘hoof mapping’ you can forward to your trimmer/farrier. Im not uk based so maybe theres uk members on here who can recommend a great farrier or EP who is welcoming of hoof mapping?
If you have feet x-rays that’ll make the remedial trim job very easy.


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## PurBee (1 September 2021)

Michen said:



			PurBee that article is so interesting!!!

I am definitely going to discuss this with my vet and farrier. It looks so drastic, but I can completely understand it.

Did you do this yourself? Or can you recommend a very good trimmer either farrier or EP who helped you?
		
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BTW - that article was just to demonstrate the frog ‘true apex’ principles and logic behind it. The trim they show in the pictures is very drastic, having trimmed all the length of the frog , aswell as frog apex, and trimmed the sole of that laminitic foot, which i don’t advocate trimming to that degree the whole frog or sole. Im more of the ‘less is more’ camp than strasser type trims.


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## angel7 (2 September 2021)

Having read through all this I will chuck in my thoughts....
The feet are rubbish cos the liver was compromised for a period and the horse has been out of work, lack of stimulous. Now sore feet and altered angles, toes look long to me.
I would take a simplistic approach, remove ALL supplements, they can be causing more harm than good to a compromised liver, kidney and hind gut. They are making work for the body to metabolize. Sometimes we really overcomplicate things. Supplements are not the answer to everything.
Feed good grass and some good quality grass nuts if grazing poor/ monoculture. Nothing else.
Trim the toe and frog back to reduce breakover and shoe to the new angle of growth at the top of the foot. This will allow more growth and give you some thing to trim back in few weeks. If hes more comfie in shoes, keep shoeing - many horses for whatever reason cannot be barefoot to do the work we ask of them. NO shame in it and doesn't mean there is anything wrong with the horse.
I wouldn't consider this amount of water excessive. If anything its less than I expect. Its been warm variable weather dry this summer for us especially overnight, perhaps he is just more thirsty / bored and its a coincidence with the liver timing. Some days I am thirstier than others. 1 tubtrug would not be enough for many horses I 've had, some drank 60litres a day some 3 litres and many vary day to day.

You might be in the rabbit hole of looking for answers you cannot find.
Uncomplicate it. Go back to basics. Many people have kidney and liver problems with no obvious cause and the function varies over time with no long term effects and they live long healthy lives.


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## TPO (2 September 2021)

I agree with the strip everything back but not trimming the toe back (for shoes or bf).

The palmar aspect of the hoof is weak because the frogs and heels are compromised. Movement should be comfortable for a horse and correct i.e. heel first landing.

IMO Michen is doing the right thing by tackling the thrush. 

I know boots were discussed elsewhere but I can't remember if that was for Bog or Bear. Regardless I'd boot (& possibly pad using EP pads) to get comfortable movement. This should enable the heels to decontract and the frog to beef up (along with thrush treatment).

No problem with shoeing of a healthy hoof but I can't see a positive to shoeing just now. In a lot of cases shoes causes contracted heels and weakened frogs and shoes are removed to allow the horse to recover.

As an aside there's a series on h&c TV about getting horses fit. In it the team GB farrier talks about pulling shoes because horses need time out of shoes to recover from shoes. He acknowledges that shoes compromise hooves and that all horses should have time out of them to recuperate. So it's not just a "hard-core bf" thing to say that shoes damage hooves.

Stripping everything back is a good shout and agree that a compromised liver will of course have affected hooves.

I really feel for you Michen. Being conscientious is hard going!!


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## Michen (2 September 2021)

Morning! Thanks both. I definitely am not going to shoe at the mo. It would be so easy but can’t see how those feet can improve in shoes  He’s in Bogs boots whilst I await the arrival of some cavallos. They’ve got the 12mm pads in them and he’s comfy and striding out. A bit big but fine for a day or two. His track to the field is mostly grass where he’s comfy, bar a few metres of dirt/stone which he is careful over but I’m ok with that. 

Also TPO I completely agree re the toe, I tried trimming and he went very sore, I had this with a TB where the back of the foot just wasn’t strong enough. It’s going to be a slow process but I think the toe will naturally come back when he’s ready to do a little road work bare.

I just hacked him on his own around the field and was thinking how worth all the trouble he is, rush hour and on the other side of the hedge metres away is a very busy road. So much traffic, huge rattling lorries coming by at 60mph and he was perfect. He’s been ridden twice since having 3 months off. How many 5 year olds can you just hop back on like that and hack alone?

Anyway, horses are great levellers as a bird then flew out of the hedge and he did a sharp right and accelerated across the stubble field holding the bit firmly between his teeth.

Ahh Bear 😅 Still the boots stayed on 🤣 and I returned with a smile as he really is 99% of the time such a lovely hack!


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## Michen (2 September 2021)

PurBee said:



			The sole shot reminds me of similar pathology of my mare’s fronts - long stretched slender frog, prone to thrush despite dry environment /bedding etc - bars weak and rounding, not functioning as they should.

I, at the time, followed ‘hoof mapping’ by an well-know. american farriery company…my mind is blank on their name! However - this is difficult to explain but they pointed out that a long stretched frog isnt the true apex of the real frog within the hoof and particularly the tip of the frog get’s stretched at the sole level, which then impacts sole growth around this ‘false frog tip’ and continued to cause a long tie, forward heel shape.- so via ‘hoof mapping protocol’ measurements are taken to show where p3 currently is and where it should end up. The ‘false frog stretched tip ’ gets trimmed back.

I’ve found pictures to illustrate what i mean on the laminitis site under ‘true apex of frog’ section:

https://www.thelaminitissite.org/feet-a-z.html

When i trimmed the tip of my mares long stretched frogs back to where they should be, within weeks her sole and foot shape finally altered! - This was after a couple of years of battling long toes, underslung heels, trimming conservative;y for flat thin soles too etc.
The frog was holding the shape in place. Before i was trimming toes back, heels back, and the forward slung shape would regrow….sooo frustrating. Only when i read about hoof mapping and trimming that stretched tip of frog back did her hoof shape ‘ping back’ to more upright! Its like her long frogs was keeping everything in a long oval shape. Also i noted when i finally trimmed the tip of the frog back she chewed a fair bit and walked off after that trim really striding well and confidently on my compact hardcore yard surface, with stones here and there.

After that trim of the elongated frog tip i knew i had jumped a hurdle with her foot pathology, thanks to the online hoof mapping guides.

It‘s worth discussing hoof mapping with your farrier/trimmer and trimming that frog tip back. I dont have pics on this machine of my mares frogs but they were insanely long like bear’s is showing, and even skinnier at the heel than bears. Terrible frogs she had! Hoof mapping literally brought her long oval foot shape back to round normal.
		
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Thanks so much! If anyone has any suggestions of trimmers etc please let me know and I’ll do some research. Happy to trailer him somewhere even if it’s just for a foot consult as not intending to trim the toe at the moment but I think the frog could be an interesting thing to look at for sure. Am in Hampshire but any of the surrounding counties are no prob.


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## Wheels (2 September 2021)

How long has he been on a bare paddock?  Is it long enough to grow down that new section?  There is a very clear line on one of the photos that makes me think some kind of diet change.

My connie really can't deal with much grass, turned out on a paddock for only an hour a day and he can get an event line - he is on the hard standing and arena the rest of the time and I'm going to start building a mostly non grass track to give him a bit more variety


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## Michen (2 September 2021)

Wheels said:



			How long has he been on a bare paddock?  Is it long enough to grow down that new section?  There is a very clear line on one of the photos that makes me think some kind of diet change.

My connie really can't deal with much grass, turned out on a paddock for only an hour a day and he can get an event line - he is on the hard standing and arena the rest of the time and I'm going to start building a mostly non grass track to give him a bit more variety
		
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Hes had the shoes off for 12 weeks and he’s been in the bare paddock for 8, the other 4 weeks were the box rest.

To be honest, if he couldn’t deal with any amount of grass (my guys are on overnight turn out in summer) I’d likely have him PTS. I wouldn’t feel happy with him just being on concrete 23 hours a day on his own, appreciate you’ve got your own set up etc so it’s easier but with livery and whatnot it’s just not a feasible option. He’s at his happiest out in the field with his mate (it’s strip grazed so not a lush field!)


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## Wheels (2 September 2021)

Would you not consider temporarily putting him somewhere with a track or all weather turnout / winter in a barn environment or similar just for a few months to see if you could get him sound with a view to sell or loan after that?

I realise that you have already done a lot for him


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## Wheels (2 September 2021)

Or re BBPs thread - I'm sure there are other similar homes out there


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## Michen (2 September 2021)

No, I wouldn’t. The vet wants him doing some structured exercise to get the leg moving and I can see his point given the ideal was that he would by now be walking for well over an hour at the end of three months box rest by now. 

The feet most likely need some decent stimulus too with boots and pads to get him hacking.

It may seem unfair but I’m not in a position to send him off for months on end on full livery to take a punt on whether being completely off grass fixes his feet. Given we should be able to get through the next month or two and then hopefully the grass will become less of an issue over winter.

I have to draw a line somewhere.


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## HelenBack (2 September 2021)

I'm not an expert but I think for the side shots of your photos your camera might be a bit far forward and that might be making things look a bit worse. I know when I do hoof photos I always have to have the camera further back than I'd think and I'm sure Ester said the same somewhere too (and she knows a lot more about these things than me!).

Also as a fellow Connie owner and knowing quite a few other Connemaras, I don't think those feet look particularly atypical, both in terms of the shape and the fairly poor horn quality. One farrier once told me that he didn't like shoeing Connies because however hard he tried their heels would just contract. So please try to stop being so hard on yourself about it all because it's not your fault!

If he's comfy in boots and pads then that's a great start and if you can get on top of the sensitivity issue and get him walking out on tarmac without boots hopefully you can start to make some progress. He's a lucky boy, you're doing everything you can for him and that's all anybody could ask for.


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## Michen (2 September 2021)

I should add, hope that doesn't seem heartless. In the last 3 months alone I've already spent nearly 3k, almost more than his purchase price on "extra" vet bills that were outside of the insurance, fancy stem cell treatment to give him the best possible chance, extra livery etc so he could keep his stable but be elsewhere for the summer.

None of this was "necessary", the cheaper option would have been to bung him in a field for the ligament to heal naturally and then sell him from the field. And I really wanted to but.... well he's still here


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## Michen (2 September 2021)

HelenBack said:



			I'm not an expert but I think for the side shots of your photos your camera might be a bit far forward and that might be making things look a bit worse. I know when I do hoof photos I always have to have the camera further back than I'd think and I'm sure Ester said the same somewhere too (and she knows a lot more about these things than me!).

Also as a fellow Connie owner and knowing quite a few other Connemaras, I don't think those feet look particularly atypical, both in terms of the shape and the fairly poor horn quality. One farrier once told me that he didn't like shoeing Connies because however hard he tried their heels would just contract. So please try to stop being so hard on yourself about it all because it's not your fault!

If he's comfy in boots and pads then that's a great start and if you can get on top of the sensitivity issue and get him walking out on tarmac without boots hopefully you can start to make some progress. He's a lucky boy, you're doing everything you can for him and that's all anybody could ask for.
		
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Yep I agree, I don't know any connies other than Boggle (who doesn't have perfect feet) that actually have "good" feet! My connie before had worse feet than Bear's. 

I'm sure they are out there but I think they are tricky to manage. 

Thank you. xx


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## ester (2 September 2021)

I have lol'd at the size of your bucket, both of ours would definitely get through that in 12 hours and always would have, but understand that it differed from his norm/was pink! 

I do agree re. HB about the photos, your sole shot might be better for seeing where your heels are as they look better on that - you could have brushed them off though 
You know what you are doing with hooves anyway, as much as I do, you just need to trust yourself a bit more!


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## palo1 (2 September 2021)

This all sounds massively frustrating and stressful @Michen - I am sorry you are having one thing after another.  Bear is very lucky that you are looking out for him.  If it were me, I would start working on the leg rehab and use your sense of how he is in himself initially rather than trying to get 'everything'  else perfect at the same time. The feet should respond well to work and may improve no end as you deal with that. The liver issue is tricky and might be linked to other stuff but initially it might be better to do one thing at a time and try to avoid over-thinking the very irritating but subtler problems.  After all, he is pretty well in himself isn't he?  He has had a fair bit of change too and there are so many things that could be causing mildly raised liver enzymes; that may resolve or not but if Bear is well then I would park that for a couple of weeks.  That may not be a perfect approach I know but you do have a plan for his soundness and have spent a good amount of money on trying to sort him out so far.  You could easily think things into a complete spin in this scenario and horses do sometimes get themselves in a pickle...and then out again!   Many, many horses do fine with less than optimum feet - barefoot and shod and goodness knows how many horses have mildly raised liver enzymes/white cells etc etc.  I am not saying to ignore those things but if they are not actively significant in where you want to go, put them slightly lower down the 'to deal with' list and review in a couple of weeks/months.


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## Michen (2 September 2021)

palo1 said:



			This all sounds massively frustrating and stressful @Michen - I am sorry you are having one thing after another.  Bear is very lucky that you are looking out for him.  If it were me, I would start working on the leg rehab and use your sense of how he is in himself initially rather than trying to get 'everything'  else perfect at the same time. The feet should respond well to work and may improve no end as you deal with that. The liver issue is tricky and might be linked to other stuff but initially it might be better to do one thing at a time and try to avoid over-thinking the very irritating but subtler problems.  After all, he is pretty well in himself isn't he?  He has had a fair bit of change too and there are so many things that could be causing mildly raised liver enzymes; that may resolve or not but if Bear is well then I would park that for a couple of weeks.  That may not be a perfect approach I know but you do have a plan for his soundness and have spent a good amount of money on trying to sort him out so far.  You could easily think things into a complete spin in this scenario and horses do sometimes get themselves in a pickle...and then out again!   Many, many horses do fine with less than optimum feet - barefoot and shod and goodness knows how many horses have mildly raised liver enzymes/white cells etc etc.  I am not saying to ignore those things but if they are not actively significant in where you want to go, put them slightly lower down the 'to deal with' list and review in a couple of weeks/months.
		
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Thanks Palo! His liver enzymes actually came back normal which is brilliant as there's been 3/4 occasions where he's started downing water and every time his enzymes have been up, then when he's drunk normally again they've been back down.

So very pleased with that!

And agree with everything you've said re feet.

He looks great, he's a good weight and everyone commented how well he looked in himself when he came home. He's also super happy to be home it seems, I honestly think he was bored stiff all summer, he lost his cheeky glint when I'd go visit and he's got it back now and is having great fun annoying Bog, chewing his tail, rubbing his face on his arse etc etc and watching the world go by from his huge stable!

ETA oh yeah, and practiscing his 0-60 cross country start box across stubble fields. But we will put that down as a one off.


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## Michen (2 September 2021)

ester said:



			I have lol'd at the size of your bucket, both of ours would definitely get through that in 12 hours and always would have, but understand that it differed from his norm/was pink!

I do agree re. HB about the photos, your sole shot might be better for seeing where your heels are as they look better on that - you could have brushed them off though 
You know what you are doing with hooves anyway, as much as I do, you just need to trust yourself a bit more!
		
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Thanks  I think it was defo the pink bucket haha. Or pinkyboots comment about liking the "stable" water having only had a trough all summer is actually a really valid one.

I guess it wasn't unreasonable to panic when he was draining it dry though, certainly my vet was also expecting raised enzymes and we were very surprised when they weren't!


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## Michen (2 September 2021)

Also laughing at this thread's title- he certainly is a true "project" isn't he


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## Michen (3 September 2021)

Do I have the best vet in the entire world that I just found this left outside Bears stable for me!???


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## ycbm (3 September 2021)

.



Michen said:



			Do I have the best vet in the entire world that I just found this left outside Bears stable for me!???

View attachment 78882

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Yes, but please ignore the amount of magnesium she feeds,  it's ridiculous. (3x50ml scoop, as I recall) . If it works with some horses it will only be because it's acting as an acid damper in horses with a dodgy gut,  and there are better ways to do that than over loading the kidneys pissing cloudy urine.  
.


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## paddy555 (3 September 2021)

based solely on your hoof pics I don't see you will get anywhere unless you can sort the main problem ie the central sulchus. Until that is resolved the back of the foot will never strengthen nor will the contraction go nor will the toes ever come back either naturally or through trimming. Having seen this many times before I would guess that treatment is not getting down to the bottom of the cs. I would clean the cs daily with cotton wool and a bradawl until the cotton wool comes up clean and then syringe treatment in so that it gets right down to the bottom. I would also clean the co lateral grooves daily and very severely until  you are down to white each time you scrape them out and initially treat the grooves and sides of the frog for a couple of treatments. 
From similar feet I have treated I wouldn't expect it to take much more than a week to get the cs progressing. After that I would still thoroughly clean it daily for several months until you get it well widened. 

I'm afraid I have never had much success with clean trax. 

If you have not already tested for cushings have you considered TRH over ACTH as you are looking for a very accurate result in a young horse. 
How reliable was your HWSD test? ie was it done by someone reliable who tested the correct horse?


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## Michen (3 September 2021)

Thanks, he was tested as per the connemara breed society process. His breeding alone means he cannot have it anyway.

His cushings test came back negative (today- second one). I don’t think this horse has anything metabolic in that sense to be honest, I think he’s had a rubbish year with liver and other factors and it will take a while to sort out the overall horse.

What treatment have you had success with? At the moment I’m using sole cleanse and then packing with hoof stuff.


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## GinaGeo (3 September 2021)

I’ve had the most success with the Kevin Bacon Hoof Solution. 

Find it quicker and easier than the Hoof Stuff which I’ve never really had much luck with (everyone else seems to rate it though 🤣)


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## paddy555 (3 September 2021)

Michen said:



			Thanks, he was tested as per the connemara breed society process. His breeding alone means he cannot have it anyway.

His cushings test came back negative (today- second one). I don’t think this horse has anything metabolic in that sense to be honest, I think he’s had a rubbish year with liver and other factors and it will take a while to sort out the overall horse.

What treatment have you had success with? At the moment I’m using sole cleanse and then packing with hoof stuff.
		
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sorry somehow missed your last line.
Once I have got to the bottom of the cs (which can take some effort) I syringe in iodine daily for 4 days. Before syringing it in I clean the cs each time until the cotton wool is clean. I also soak cotton wool in iodine and poke it in whilst soaking wet in the hope it drips down to the bottom. Doesn't matter if it comes out half an hour later.
I also "gouge" the gooves out with cotton wool pushed in with a bradawl and brush iodine in. 

After 4 days of this it should be clean so it is a case of regrowing the cs. 

cannot claim any credit for it sadly
https://www.hoofrehab.com/Thrush_treatment.htm

I find iodine the best to kill the infection. Desitin from e bay,, syringe from Mole valley, copper sulphate from Mole. I found it easy enough to kill the infection but this gets it to regrow and widen.


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## bouncing_ball (4 September 2021)

paddy555 said:



			sorry somehow missed your last line.
Once I have got to the bottom of the cs (which can take some effort) I syringe in iodine daily for 4 days. Before syringing it in I clean the cs each time until the cotton wool is clean. I also soak cotton wool in iodine and poke it in whilst soaking wet in the hope it drips down to the bottom. Doesn't matter if it comes out half an hour later.
I also "gouge" the gooves out with cotton wool pushed in with a bradawl and brush iodine in. 

After 4 days of this it should be clean so it is a case of regrowing the cs. 

cannot claim any credit for it sadly
https://www.hoofrehab.com/Thrush_treatment.htm

I find iodine the best to kill the infection. Desitin from e bay,, syringe from Mole valley, copper sulphate from Mole. I found it easy enough to kill the infection but this gets it to regrow and widen.
		
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Pete Ramey doesn’t recommend iodine as it’s too caustic


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## ycbm (4 September 2021)

Michen said:



			Yep I agree, I don't know any connies other than Boggle (who doesn't have perfect feet) that actually have "good" feet! My connie before had worse feet than Bear's. 

I'm sure they are out there but I think they are tricky to manage. 

Thank you. xx
		
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I do agree that the ones I've seen have all got long feet not round feet and will contract at the heel at the drop of a hat.  When I saw the photos I thought they looked like feet that needed some miles on them, but they didn't look too bad.  
.


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## Pinkvboots (4 September 2021)

bouncing_ball said:



			Pete Ramey doesn’t recommend iodine as it’s too caustic
		
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I used it the other week on one of my horses frogs as they had got really soft and I think it was a bit too harsh they looked a bit odd afterwards, I think its OK to use for a few days but beyond that I would use something else


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## Michen (4 September 2021)

ycbm said:



			I do agree that the ones I've seen have all got long feet not round feet and will contract at the heel at the drop of a hat.  When I saw the photos I thought they looked like feet that needed some miles on them, but they didn't look too bad. 
.
		
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Except Bog who has lovely round wide feet! He’s just better at everything isn’t he 🤣🤦‍♀️


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## paddy555 (4 September 2021)

bouncing_ball said:



			Pete Ramey doesn’t recommend iodine as it’s too caustic
		
Click to expand...

In reality I have never found that based on many years of using it.. It is an effective treatment to deal with this problem. To my mind the cs on this horse is poor and needs quickly sorting. What I have suggested is how I would have success with dealing with it.

ETA how would you deal with this problem


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## bouncing_ball (4 September 2021)

paddy555 said:



			In reality I have never found that based on many years of using it.. It is an effective treatment to deal with this problem. To my mind the cs on this horse is poor and needs quickly sorting. What I have suggested is how I would have success with dealing with it.

ETA how would you deal with this problem
		
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Iodine kills thrush but also kills good bacteria and new tissue growth.

I’ve had success with flossing crack with baby wipes soaked in red horse sole cleanse. Then packing with red horse hoof stuff. I’ve also used the dental syringes Pete Ramey recommends to get Desitin or red horse sole paint into the crack.

I’ve also found decent diet with low sugar and starch snd enough zinc / copper / selenium / magnesium/ sodium helps.

And feet having access to a clean dry environment.


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## paddy555 (4 September 2021)

bouncing_ball said:



			Iodine kills thrush but also kills good bacteria and new tissue growth.

I’ve had success with flossing crack with baby wipes soaked in red horse sole cleanse. Then packing with red horse hoof stuff. I’ve also used the dental syringes Pete Ramey recommends to get Desitin or red horse sole paint into the crack.

I’ve also found decent diet with low sugar and starch snd enough zinc / copper / selenium / magnesium/ sodium helps.

And feet having access to a clean dry environment.
		
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I think we will have to disagree on iodine. I have never found that to be the case in practise and have had far better and quicker results than with anything else.

However the  most important point with the cs in the pic on here is cleanliness. Getting it totally clean right down to the bottom and keeping it that way however you get in there.


I looked up iodine to try and find out if it did cause problems in wound healing. To me this seems to suggest it doesn't.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/20619933/

I have used iodine on myself many times and also have found it did not affect new tissue growth.


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## angel7 (4 September 2021)

I've had success with Activon medihoney smeared into every crack and crevice for 3 days then alternate days caneston cream and sudocream mixed and packed in. Antibacterial, antimicrobial, antifungal, zinc helpful extra.
Also bactakill spray was useful on a different one with spongy smelly frogs.


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## CanteringCarrot (4 September 2021)

I found that the sole cleanse, flossing, and hoof stuff (I think it was) from Red Horse worked quite well.


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## DabDab (4 September 2021)

Michen said:



			Except Bog who has lovely round wide feet! He’s just better at everything isn’t he 🤣🤦‍♀️
		
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I'm pretty sure I remember quite a similar thread about Bog's feet back in the day


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## Michen (4 September 2021)

DabDab said:



			I'm pretty sure I remember quite a similar thread about Bog's feet back in the day 

Click to expand...

oooh no they were never long and contracted though. They were too upright and broken forward 🤣🤣🤣 he still wins!


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## ester (4 September 2021)

and with a ruddy great hole in them.


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## Michen (4 September 2021)

ester said:



			and with a ruddy great hole in them.
		
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Oh yeah but still....


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## ycbm (4 September 2021)

I've taken a closer look at your photos Michen and the arrowed parts are very suggestive of HWSD, are you sure he hasn't the genes for it? Sorry if I'm going over old ground.


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## Michen (4 September 2021)

Lol, honestly I don’t see anything other than a chipped hoof from poor quality.

No, he doesn’t have it or the genes for it.


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## DabDab (4 September 2021)

Michen said:



			oooh no they were never long and contracted though. They were too upright and broken forward 🤣🤣🤣 he still wins!
		
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Haha, Bog always wins, he is fabulous.

But in terms of young horse with less than ideal diet in their past, on-off low level foot-related lamenesses, hoof shape alternating between ok and worrying at the same time as their physique is changing with them maturing and developing.....

The presentation of hoof pathologies might have been different but a lot of the other contextual details are very similar (from my memory at least)

Fwiw my Connie had very boxy feet with contracted heels when I bought her at 2 1/2. 9 months later the heels were better (though still quite thrushy despite lots of treatment), but the toe had got long and heels underrun (not drastically but about the same as the recent pics of Bear's feet), which I battled for quite a while. Now her feet are pretty much perfect, but that has only been the case for the last 12-18 months. She's a year older than Bear. 

It's the main reason I left her a long time to ride away properly, and why I did so much long reining with her when I don't usually. But tbh being properly in work (gently built up obviously) has done her feet the world of good.


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## Michen (4 September 2021)

DabDab said:



			Haha, Bog always wins, he is fabulous.

But in terms of young horse with less than ideal diet in their past, on-off low level foot-related lamenesses, hoof shape alternating between ok and worrying at the same time as their physique is changing with them maturing and developing.....

The presentation of hoof pathologies might have been different but a lot of the other contextual details are very similar (from my memory at least)

Fwiw my Connie had very boxy feet with contracted heels when I bought her at 2 1/2. 9 months later the heels were better (though still quite thrushy despite lots of treatment), but the toe had got long and heels underrun (not drastically but about the same as the recent pics of Bear's feet), which I battled for quite a while. Now her feet are pretty much perfect, but that has only been the case for the last 12-18 months. She's a year older than Bear.

It's the main reason I left her a long time to ride away properly, and why I did so much long reining with her when I don't usually. But tbh being properly in work (gently built up obviously) has done her feet the world of good.
		
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No you are totally right! Oh the panic. And I remember you saying you thought they grow the feet they need at the time. Which I think was very relevant for Bog when he became broken forward as a year later even when barefoot he didn't do it again. Not saying Bear needs his feet to be like this of course, but maybe all he can manage currently 

I have to say even after 5 days of being back home he is already looking better on the concrete and firm dirt track bit of the walk down to the field, maybe I'm imagining it but...

I have to hope now that a month/ six weeks of hacking will start to get some decent growth going! I just need to get on top of this thrush. Which, weirdly he didn't have anywhere near to this extent when he left for his summer rest.

That is really interesting about Pebbles and quite comforting  Do you self trim or did you take anything off yourself during that time?


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## ycbm (4 September 2021)

Michen said:



			Lol, honestly I don’t see anything other than a chipped hoof from poor quality.

No, he doesn’t have it or the genes for it.
		
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It's good that he doesn't have the genes for it.  It's the left behind woolly dead laminae that are suggestive of it. I hope you manage to get him sorted, you know how much I've always liked him.  
.


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## DabDab (4 September 2021)

These days she does a lot of road work so I just tidy round them with a rasp two or three times a week after she's been worked.

Originally she was self-trimming/didn't grow much hoof. And then during the long toe phase I trimmed small amounts quite regularly as I was trying to improve it, and I also had hoof and front leg X rays mixed in there and a couple of specialist trims off the back of that, and then I let them be for quite a while (can't exactly remember why). Then I picked up small amounts of regular rasping again when I noticed the hoof shape seemed to be improving but she was getting quite a lot of chipping.


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## Michen (4 September 2021)

DabDab said:



			These days she does a lot of road work so I just tidy round them with a rasp two or three times a week after she's been worked.

Originally she was self-trimming/didn't grow much hoof. And then during the long toe phase I trimmed small amounts quite regularly as I was trying to improve it, and I also had hoof and front leg X rays mixed in there and a couple of specialist trims off the back of that, and then I let them be for quite a while (can't exactly remember why). Then I picked up small amounts of regular rasping again when I noticed the hoof shape seemed to be improving but she was getting quite a lot of chipping.
		
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Cool thanks! I have x rays too albiet from spring, I think I'll get some slides done in the next couple of months again to see how things are progressing.


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## paddy555 (4 September 2021)

Michen said:



			Lol, honestly I don’t see anything other than a chipped hoof from poor quality.

No, he doesn’t have it or the genes for it.
		
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I do, not just the front per the arrows but the periople, the lack of shine to the foot and that something simply looks wrong.  The hoof quality looks wrong. I see separation issues not just a chipped hoof. That is why my first question was about testing. This jumped out at me. 

I appreciate this will not be a response you will like but if he was my horse I would sent a test into animal genetics and I would send suitable pics to a vet/farrier experienced in this just to check it out.


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## Michen (4 September 2021)

paddy555 said:



			I do, not just the front per the arrows but the periople, the lack of shine to the foot and that something simply looks wrong.  The hoof quality looks wrong. I see separation issues not just a chipped hoof. That is why my first question was about testing. This jumped out at me.

I appreciate this will not be a response you will like but if he was my horse I would sent a test into animal genetics and I would send suitable pics to a vet/farrier experienced in this just to check it out.
		
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I appreciate the help but the horse does not have HWSD. I don’t need to go into all the (many ways) I know that 🤣.


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## CanteringCarrot (4 September 2021)

The "lack of shine" really?


Ah the joys of diagnostics over the internet. It comes from a good place, usually, but in my experience people "over diagnosed" or maybe look for things too much, but it's also nice to get different perspectives, a mixed bag, really.

I mean, something is going on, but I don't know what it is.


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## Michen (4 September 2021)

I'm not really sure that anything is going on tbh other than what I already know, which is that that horse has had a year of liver issues and long periods of antibiotics which now seem to be sorted and there are some new angles coming in on the feet. Am I the only one seeing those- or thinking that they are a good sign..!?

He's got normal bloods, he's tested negative for cushings twice now, he looks healthy from the outside and there is an explanation behind the rubbish feet. So I think all I can do now is crack on, get them moving and see what happens over the next few months.

DabDabs experience of similar feet which changed as the pony developed is quite a good example too I guess.

Frankly even if he did have HWSD (he doesn't ), I wouldn't be changing what my plan already is anyway so it would be irrelevant


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## CanteringCarrot (4 September 2021)

I agree, Michen. Best of luck and would be interesting to have updates too.


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## Michen (4 September 2021)

Of course


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## paddy555 (4 September 2021)

CanteringCarrot said:



			The "lack of shine" really?


Ah the joys of diagnostics over the internet. It comes from a good place, usually, but in my experience people "over diagnosed" or maybe look for things too much, but it's also nice to get different perspectives, a mixed bag, really.

I mean, something is going on, but I don't know what it is.
		
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You are absolutely correct. I really do have to apologise . Foot is excellent. I mustn't have had my glasses on when I commented about the lack of shine and the  periople which of course is most excellent. As for the coconut matting edges well I was just jealous my hooves didn't have these. As far as the separation goes then again a glasses problem. As far as even thinking that something I was not sure of was going on and suggesting asking an expert just to make sure then what on earth was  I thinking of.

I have duly awarded myself 100 lines. 


Michen, I do see the new growth and the new angle.  Of course I hope this will continue to ground level and that antibiotics etc will have been your problem.


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## Michen (4 September 2021)

paddy555 said:



			You are absolutely correct. I really do have to apologise . Foot is excellent. I mustn't have had my glasses on when I commented about the lack of shine and the  periople which of course is most excellent. As for the coconut matting edges well I was just jealous my hooves didn't have these. As far as the separation goes then again a glasses problem. As far as even thinking that something I was not sure of was going on and suggesting asking an expert just to make sure then what on earth was  I thinking of.

I have duly awarded myself 100 lines.


Michen, I do see the new growth and the new angle.  Of course I hope this will continue to ground level and that antibiotics etc will have been your problem.
		
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This is unnecessary. Just remember this is my horse that's being discussed and sarcastic comments about the state of his feet in a post like this just makes it even more upsetting for me as the owner whose trying her very best to get him sorted.

And I believe CC was more referencing the fact that I've said several times he cannot have HWSD, and probably knows that it's highly likely I'd have ticked the box of getting expert opinions anyway.

But thank you for the thrush info which I will definitely take on board and give a go as I hadn't put as much effort into really cleaning it out like that as you described so that's likely what I'm missing.


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## TPO (4 September 2021)

Random thought re the raised liver enzymes. 

Post about wrgot are everywhere because, well, ergot is everywhere. Raised liver enzymes are one of the symptoms of having ingested ergot fungus.

Had he had any access to long grass? Although ergot awareness is everywhere right now it is an annual occurrence so perhaps he had access to log grass around field edges last year?

Bit of a reach just with the ergot stuff being everywhere


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## Boulty (4 September 2021)

Just to confuse you even more re thrush treatments I’ve had decent success with short term (about 5-7 days) of leovet frog medic.  It’s a bit harsh to use on a regular basis/ as a preventative but it’s in a pressurised can & fantastic for blasting into crevices if you’re like me & too lazy to floss with cotton wool (Apparently the strands off a rope mop are great for flossing, ditto large baby wipes) / are useless at using hoof stuff.  I also use red horse artimud / field paste / sole cleanse but have used the other stuff twice when things have gotten a bit manky (just after I got him & last month when he’d been going through a phase of pooing right by the door & then standing in it)

Also bless your vet 🥰 (give the orange one a wave for me when you get to that page 😂)


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## Michen (4 September 2021)

TPO said:



			Random thought re the raised liver enzymes.

Post about wrgot are everywhere because, well, ergot is everywhere. Raised liver enzymes are one of the symptoms of having ingested ergot fungus.

Had he had any access to long grass? Although ergot awareness is everywhere right now it is an annual occurrence so perhaps he had access to log grass around field edges last year?

Bit of a reach just with the ergot stuff being everywhere
		
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Yep he has around the edges! But I had Bog tested too and he was fine, and the enzymes seemed to yo-yo up and down?

But it’s a good thing to think about.. hmm! I guess given his bloods are normal now I’ll try and forget about any liver type issues for now until he gets tested again in 3 months 🙈


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## Labaire (4 September 2021)

Yet one more thrush treatment - 5min povidine iodine scrub followed by tetracycline spray (from vet), every 2/3 days for a week then weekly.


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## Boulty (4 September 2021)

Oh & another random thought but the orange one's feet went back to looking especially awful when he was having issues with raised liver enzymes (cause unknown but as several others at yard also had it suspect either something infectious or something in the hay or water... In hindsight I do wonder about ergot as think the winter field did used to go to seed before being used, as did the hay due to part of it coming from a meadow with wildflowers that ideally needed to be allowed to seed before a hay cut was taken but was a few years ago so no idea how likely it would have been).


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## CanteringCarrot (5 September 2021)

paddy555 said:



			You are absolutely correct. I really do have to apologise . Foot is excellent. I mustn't have had my glasses on when I commented about the lack of shine and the  periople which of course is most excellent. As for the coconut matting edges well I was just jealous my hooves didn't have these. As far as the separation goes then again a glasses problem. As far as even thinking that something I was not sure of was going on and suggesting asking an expert just to make sure then what on earth was  I thinking of.

I have duly awarded myself 100 lines.


Michen, I do see the new growth and the new angle.  Of course I hope this will continue to ground level and that antibiotics etc will have been your problem.
		
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Lol you're so lovely.

But really, I asked "lack of shine" really? Because I've seen healthy hooves that aren't particularly shiny. I don't use that as a criteria for the most part and the camera can be a bit deceiving with lighting in relation to shine. That's all. But if you think shine is very important, would've been interested to hear your reasoning and experience.

The next comment about over the internet diagnostics was in general. I still stand by it, because it can be true.

If you felt the need to get rude and offended, then that's on you 🤷‍♀️ no one is saying the hoof is perfect or without faults. Michen is very dedicated (moreso than many on here) to finding the cause and sorting it out. I do not believe she is ignoring anything or saying it's perfect. I have much respect for how she cares for her horses. I just think people start to get a bit overly critical sometimes and just look for things. In general. I could be wrong, wouldn't be the first time 😜 But if you want to be rude/quite frankly odd about it, carry on.

I also think if the hooves were caused by the liver issue and whatnot, if you see the ends breaking/being weak, it could just be the crappy hoof/poor quality growing out from when the liver issue was occurring. If better quality is growing in, then it's not so concerning (because what can you do, really? Aside from treating the thrush and whatnot), as long as it is growing.


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## tristar (5 September 2021)

Michen said:



			I'm not really sure that anything is going on tbh other than what I already know, which is that that horse has had a year of liver issues and long periods of antibiotics which now seem to be sorted and there are some new angles coming in on the feet. Am I the only one seeing those- or thinking that they are a good sign..!?

He's got normal bloods, he's tested negative for cushings twice now, he looks healthy from the outside and there is an explanation behind the rubbish feet. So I think all I can do now is crack on, get them moving and see what happens over the next few months.

DabDabs experience of similar feet which changed as the pony developed is quite a good example too I guess.

Frankly even if he did have HWSD (he doesn't ), I wouldn't be changing what my plan already is anyway so it would be irrelevant 

Click to expand...

i can clearly see the demarcation of old and new angle, i would take a rasp to the toes and start to follow the new line of growth gradually, the hooves do not appear to have a wall separation problem visually, possibly they are rough round the edges as they are pushing forwards, flaring ?

time for you to pick up a rasp M and start to give a gentle manicure and help to ease the new angles in without distortion, we all have to start somewhere! if you have not tried as yet, have no fear lots on here will guide you, you could be doing him and yourself a big step in the right direction

connies as i am told by an authority on the breed



, will be putting down bone for a longish time and he is so young so his feet will also change accordingly as he develops




 and you might feel a bit more in control of events if can shape them the feet a bit

sorry about the typing layout, dog knocked the computer


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## Michen (5 September 2021)

Tristar can i get a radius rasp or is that cheating 🤣 I think that’s all I can handle!

I do love hacking this horse he’s such W a pleasure. Although he does now have emergency draw reins on after his acceleration across the stubble 🤣 Still he doesn’t feel remotely unfit. Really striding out in his boots and powering up hills. And the CS looks better. Really pleased.

We will get there!


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## HelenBack (6 September 2021)

As a  nervous first time rasper who was frightened of overdoing it I got one of these:

https://www.urbanhorse.com/for_your...products/heller_excel_original_blue_hoof_rasp

I just use the blunter side of it and find it very easy to use and I really couldn't take too much off this way!

Or your farrier might give you an old rasp if you ask him. I think you're as well getting a proper one if you're going to do it regularly though. I've never used one of the little radius ones but I would imagine they're probably small and fiddly and annoying!


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## Tiddlypom (6 September 2021)

You'll knacker yourself much more with a Radius rasp if you try to do any more than a light bevelling off. I've been there, done that, before I gave in and got a proper rasp.  

I've got both the Radius Pro-2 and 1. They are handy for finishing off, but that's it.


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## Red-1 (6 September 2021)

I do feet twice a week, means you only have to take a smidge off. Means I dare use a long rasp and also it isn't as tough on your back! I think it is also kinder to the horse's feet and joints, as there are no sudden changes.


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## Michen (6 September 2021)

I don't intend to "trim" as such, just round off the edges so hoping a radius rasp type thing will be good for that?

I wouldn't trust myself trimming!

I do have a rasp somewhere I've just never used it eeeeek


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## Marigold4 (6 September 2021)

Michen said:



			I don't intend to "trim" as such, just round off the edges so hoping a radius rasp type thing will be good for that?

I wouldn't trust myself trimming!

I do have a rasp somewhere I've just never used it eeeeek
		
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I went on a course to learn basics and have a fab new trimmer linked to the course who has taught me how to keep my horse's toes back. She showed me how using drawn-on lines and protractor, took photos of angle of rasp and made a video of her doing it. I rasp twice a week. Over the course of 12 weeks his feet have been transformed.


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## Michen (6 September 2021)

Marigold4 said:



			I went on a course to learn basics and have a fab new trimmer linked to the course who has taught me how to keep my horse's toes back. She showed me how using drawn-on lines and protractor, took photos of angle of rasp and made a video of her doing it. I rasp twice a week. Over the course of 12 weeks his feet have been transformed.
		
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Thanks! What course did you go on?


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## tristar (6 September 2021)

Michen said:



			Tristar can i get a radius rasp or is that cheating 🤣 I think that’s all I can handle!

I do love hacking this horse he’s such W a pleasure. Although he does now have emergency draw reins on after his acceleration across the stubble 🤣 Still he doesn’t feel remotely unfit. Really striding out in his boots and powering up hills. And the CS looks better. Really pleased.

We will get there! 

View attachment 79024

Click to expand...


lovely photo, glad to hear he is hacking well
have you ever tried  standing mart,? i swear by them for head up sudden acceleration 


i have never used a radius but sure they are handy.

i started with a normal rasp, with a handle, which gives more control, and followed the line of the slope of the hoof to start, but did not have new angle growth, just flare mainly, if you look at the sole side you will see where there is excess growth around the outside of the white line, then put your rasp flat on the top side of the hoof narrow side flat coronary band to bottom of hoof wall and you may see a gap between the edge of the rasp and the wall, that is your flare, usually more to the sides of the hoof wall, but yours looks to need his toes to come back, for one thing

its hard to tell someone how to do it, but if you just start taking off bit you won`t do harm, cos as we know it soon grows again

i don`t know if the radius is to just smooth round the edge, but you need to rasp downwards to welcome in the new hoof, any how good luck!


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## Michen (6 September 2021)

tristar said:



			lovely photo, glad to hear he is hacking well
have you ever tried  standing mart,? i swear by them for head up sudden acceleration


i have never used a radius but sure they are handy.

i started with a normal rasp, with a handle, which gives more control, and followed the line of the slope of the hoof to start, but did not have new angle growth, just flare mainly, if you look at the sole side you will see where there is excess growth around the outside of the white line, then put your rasp flat on the top side of the hoof narrow side flat coronary band to bottom of hoof wall and you may see a gap between the edge of the rasp and the wall, that is your flare, usually more to the sides of the hoof wall, but yours looks to need his toes to come back, for one thing

its hard to tell someone how to do it, but if you just start taking off bit you won`t do harm, cos as we know it soon grows again

i don`t know if the radius is to just smooth round the edge, but you need to rasp downwards to welcome in the new hoof, any how good luck!
		
Click to expand...


Yes he's always in a standing martingale but I still didn't manage to catch him the other day with it on, so with respect to his ligament that doesn't want that kind of behaviour I'm sticking with draw reins for now, they are only used if needed and so far haven't been!

Thanks for the advice that's very helpful


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## Marigold4 (6 September 2021)

Michen said:



			Thanks! What course did you go on?
		
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I have PM-ed you with details


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## SatansLittleHelper (6 September 2021)

Sorry, this might be completely irrelevant but thought I'd chuck this in just on the off chance it helps. Not horses but as I've kept parrots for over 20 years, I thought it might be of interest 🤷‍♀️😳
Many parrots have poor feather condition due to poor diet, I have rescued MANY parrots with liver issues over rather years and the one thing that always stands out, in these birds is the excess growth and poor quality of the nails and beak plus brittle, poorly formed feathers, all of which are made of keratin, same as hooves.
When rehabbing these birds I ALWAYS start with the diet and this, assuming the liver isn't too badly damaged,  usually starts the process of regaining condition. It is rare that this doesn't help the issue.
I'm possibly rambling but what I'm trying to get at is that I'm convinced the issue for Bear has started with the liver, it will be interesting to see how his hoof quality changes with the drop in liver enzymes.


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## McGrools (6 September 2021)

ycbm said:



			.


Yes, but please ignore the amount of magnesium she feeds,  it's ridiculous. (3x50ml scoop, as I recall) . If it works with some horses it will only be because it's acting as an acid damper in horses with a dodgy gut,  and there are better ways to do that than over loading the kidneys pissing cloudy urine.  
.
		
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Sorry to derail a bit but interested, why does the author advocate lots of magnesium? What is it supposed to do for foot health?

I’m feeding it as a calmer, didnt know it has other uses? 
Xx


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## ycbm (6 September 2021)

McGrools said:



			Sorry to derail a bit but interested, why does the author advocate lots of magnesium? What is it supposed to do for foot health?

I’m feeding it as a calmer, didnt know it has other uses? 
Xx
		
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It is supposed to have a role in insulin regulation,  in old times it was fed to laminitics as Epsom salts,  and there's a lot of anecdotal evidence that it keeps fat pads down.  Anything that regulates blood sugars is likely to prevent bad effects on the hoof quality.   Many people with barefoot horses,  me included,  feed mag ox, but not in the quantities stated in that book.  
.


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## McGrools (6 September 2021)

ycbm said:



			It is supposed to have a role in insulin regulation,  in old times it was fed to laminitics as Epsom salts,  and there's a lot of anecdotal evidence that it keeps fat pads down.  Anything that regulates blood sugars is likely to prevent bad effects on the hoof quality.   Many people with barefoot horses,  me included,  feed mag ox, but not in the quantities stated in that book.  
.
		
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Brilliant thankyou ycbm, learn something new everyday!!
I started feeding my just turned 6 yr old mare on it a few weeks ago as a calmer and she seems to have matured well in that time. Possibly just coincidence but she was a bit backward thinking and now isnt. she does live out 24/7 so eats a lot of grass. Very interesting! Thankyou xx


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## McGrools (6 September 2021)

ycbm said:



			It is supposed to have a role in insulin regulation,  in old times it was fed to laminitics as Epsom salts,  and there's a lot of anecdotal evidence that it keeps fat pads down.  Anything that regulates blood sugars is likely to prevent bad effects on the hoof quality.   Many people with barefoot horses,  me included,  feed mag ox, but not in the quantities stated in that book.  
.
		
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Also i like the old fashioned remedies, that is a big thumbs up from me! 
😊😊


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## Michen (7 September 2021)

Red-1 said:



			I do feet twice a week, means you only have to take a smidge off. Means I dare use a long rasp and also it isn't as tough on your back! I think it is also kinder to the horse's feet and joints, as there are no sudden changes.
		
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Red can you remind me of Fiona’s surname? X


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## Michen (7 September 2021)

SatansLittleHelper said:



			Sorry, this might be completely irrelevant but thought I'd chuck this in just on the off chance it helps. Not horses but as I've kept parrots for over 20 years, I thought it might be of interest 🤷‍♀️😳
Many parrots have poor feather condition due to poor diet, I have rescued MANY parrots with liver issues over rather years and the one thing that always stands out, in these birds is the excess growth and poor quality of the nails and beak plus brittle, poorly formed feathers, all of which are made of keratin, same as hooves.
When rehabbing these birds I ALWAYS start with the diet and this, assuming the liver isn't too badly damaged,  usually starts the process of regaining condition. It is rare that this doesn't help the issue.
I'm possibly rambling but what I'm trying to get at is that I'm convinced the issue for Bear has started with the liver, it will be interesting to see how his hoof quality changes with the drop in liver enzymes.
		
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No that is helpful thanks so much!

I am really pleased with him. He’s been home a week and he’s already WAY less footy on stones and fine on concrete. He only has to go over a little bit of dirt/stone track for turnout and he’s now really good over it.  Still very much toe first unless in boots but to be expected.

The deep crack is still deep but opening up nicely.

I just need to get the trim/not trim thing right, I feel like there will be a window of opportunity but it’s going to be tricky as I’m shortly going to be away for two weeks and I bet it’ll be whilst I’m gone 🤣

And he’s hacking out so well! I added another small loop to build up this morning which meant going past home and not one hint of objection, just carried on ears pricked and forward.

Uh oh. I’m not going to want to give him up. He’s luring me back in again!


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## Red-1 (7 September 2021)

Michen said:



			Red can you remind me of Fiona’s surname? X
		
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Varian.

https://www.fluidmovements.co.uk

IMO it is well worth having a 'body' treatment as well as a feet trim. They go hand in hand.


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## Michen (7 September 2021)

Red-1 said:



			Varian.

https://www.fluidmovements.co.uk

IMO it is well worth having a 'body' treatment as well as a feet trim. They go hand in hand.
		
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Thank you!


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## Michen (9 October 2021)

I am SO pleased with Bear. I have come back after three weeks away and he’s so good over rough surfaces now, his landing is flat and I don’t think it’ll be too long before it’s heel first. The central sulcus is open and shallow although still treating daily. I’ve rasped him myself weekly and then had him trimmed twice by pros but absolutely minimal amounts just tiny tiny bits taken off to get the toe back. His coat is Shiney and his weight is good and he’s not downing water so I’m fairly confident his liver enzymes would be fine too if we were to test right now.  

He’s behaving like an angel and has accompanied Bog to camp- here he is doing hack and splash with my friend (and hopefully his full loaner from November).

Chuffed to bits with him.. hoping for a 100% sound horse when the vet next comes this month. He’s off to Wales with Boggle for a weeks holiday next week, he is just about to start a little trot work so he won’t be doing the longer and faster rides but there’s 6 of us bringing 9 horses for a weeks holiday so it’ll be good fun!!

Oh and Bog whose not jumped for 9 weeks was superb today at camp. We didn’t miss a single fence and he felt epic.

Fab ponies!


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## splashgirl45 (9 October 2021)

good news,  have a great holiday


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## Rosemary28 (9 October 2021)

That’s brilliant news 😊


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## Bradsmum (9 October 2021)

Great news, I so love reading about Boggle & Bear (despite their off days).  Enjoy Wales, looks like you might be lucky with the weather next week.


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## Michen (9 October 2021)

Bradsmum said:



			Great news, I so love reading about Boggle & Bear (despite their off days).  Enjoy Wales, looks like you might be lucky with the weather next week.
		
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Thanks! Really looking forward to it. It’s my 30th so hopefully will take away the sting of leaving my 20’s!


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## tristar (9 October 2021)

oh i do love a happy sounding post


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## ycbm (9 October 2021)

That's really good to read,  and you deserve it.  Have a great holiday,  I hope the weather holds good for you.


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## Jeni the dragon (9 October 2021)

I hope you all have an amazing time! Looking forward to some fabulous pics of shiny ponies!


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## palo1 (10 October 2021)

Hope you have a lovely holiday in Wales and congratulations on your birthday and 2 lovely horses!!


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## Emilieu (11 October 2021)

What a smashing way to spend your birthday. Have an excellent time


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## Annagain (11 October 2021)

Great news about Bear (and Bog). Where in Wales are you going?


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## Michen (11 October 2021)

Annagain said:



			Great news about Bear (and Bog). Where in Wales are you going?
		
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Brandy House farm


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## Michen (12 October 2021)

Hoof pics for anyone interested a few months apart. I’m not deluding myself that they don’t have a long way to go but they are going in the right direction, they are growing and he is a huge amount more comfortable on them so I can only be pleased. They also need a trim, again, 2 weeks after last having a rasp.

Not sure how much to intervene, heels are long but we are being pretty conservative just keeping things “tidy” and letting him grow his own feet in.


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## IrishMilo (12 October 2021)

Feet look awesome. So much more width to the frog and less bullnose in front!


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## HashRouge (12 October 2021)

^Ditto
I would keep doing what you're doing, especially if he is sound and comfortable. There is a lot to be said for not messing about too much with feet that are functional, which is a message my share horse's farrier never seems to get...


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## tristar (12 October 2021)

i trim once once a fortnight in general, but keep tools in the hoof cleaning bin and do bits when needed as well

its like training your eye to see what needs doing,
 now you have started you will be looking at the feet in a different way than when you relied on someone else to do the job


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## TPO (12 October 2021)

Did you change his feed and/or supplements at all?


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## Michen (12 October 2021)

TPO said:



			Did you change his feed and/or supplements at all?
		
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I added a hind gut supp from forage plus but he wouldn't eat it, so now Boggle has it. And I swapped the pro hoof for Equimins hoof mender (through gritted teeth as I really didn't like their handling of the whole Vit E debacle).


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## TPO (12 October 2021)

Michen said:



			I added a hind gut supp from forage plus but he wouldn't eat it, so now Boggle has it. And I swapped the pro hoof for Equimins hoof mender (through gritted teeth as I really didn't like their handling of the whole Vit E debacle).
		
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Thanks

I always thought that a lot of correcting a bull nose was diet related. Its amazing that such a relatively small change has made such a big difference. 2hat a good change in his hooves


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## SEL (12 October 2021)

That angle growing down is loads better and his frog is looking good too


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## Michen (12 October 2021)

TPO said:



			Thanks

I always thought that a lot of correcting a bull nose was diet related. Its amazing that such a relatively small change has made such a big difference. 2hat a good change in his hooves
		
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I'm not convinced it's the change in diet, more the shoe removal and movement? As he was already growing in a straighter angle before I switched to the equimins.

I do think his feet starting to grow are because he's moving though!


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## ycbm (12 October 2021)

Looking good M.  I agree it will be mostly the movement. 
.


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## Michen (12 October 2021)

Thanks all. Any thoughts on the heels, they are pretty high but I don't really think I can do much about it at the moment? I don't want them to run forward anymore...

I sort of think he may do a Boggle (that's the technical phrase my vet used who was hoping he would do that  ) and go quite upright for a bit and then hopefully relax again to where they should be (without being broken back like they were).

Interesting anyway. I'll get some x rays re done at some point and see.


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## TPO (12 October 2021)

Michen said:



			I'm not convinced it's the change in diet, more the shoe removal and movement? As he was already growing in a straighter angle before I switched to the equimins.

I do think his feet starting to grow are because he's moving though!
		
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Ah sorry, brain fart. I thought he was  barefoot, totally forgot he'd been in shoes sorry.


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## Michen (28 October 2021)

Update on the Kray twins!

Both went to Wales for my 30th last week. A big group of girls and even more horses! The place was beautiful, the terrain challenging. Bear didn't do much as he's still rehabbing and we were mostly going for long hacks, plus he's in hoof boots which were so dangerously slippery on the short grass. So he mostly pootled around the lanes but did one or two proper hacks. The weeknd before both went to camp at Boomerang which was fun, although they screamed for eachother the entire time...

He has a vet visit tomorrow, last time the vet was out was 8 weeks ago where the scan showed a perfectly healed lesion but he was still a bit lame. Vet said to crack on and rehab, that it needed the movement and strengthening. We have just started trot work.

All being well he will then be signed over on full loan to my friend who absolutely adores him! I'm terrified though, if he's lame or lamer tomorrow I really don't know what I will do with him but I think it will inevitably be PTS 

So please keep your fingers very crossed!


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## ElleSkywalker (28 October 2021)

Like for the pictures and everything crossed for vets xx


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## Roxylola (28 October 2021)

Gorgeous pics, everything crossed for the vets.


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## Keith_Beef (28 October 2021)

Absolutely wonderful pictures! And belated birthday wishes.

I'd love to jump a ditch out in the wild like that; for me, everything I do in the riding school is just preparation for hacking.


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## Meredith (28 October 2021)

I see you enjoyed the Beacon. I said it might be slippery and I recognise similar terrain. Fingers crossed for vet visit.


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## Michen (28 October 2021)

Keith_Beef said:



			Absolutely wonderful pictures! And belated birthday wishes.

I'd love to jump a ditch out in the wild like that; for me, everything I do in the riding school is just preparation for hacking.
		
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I did it with my hipflask of port in my hand hehe! Bog loved it!


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## Michen (28 October 2021)

Meredith said:



			I see you enjoyed the Beacon. I said it might be slippery and I recognise similar terrain. Fingers crossed for vet visit.
		
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Yes I was prepared for it, it was never the plan for Bear to do much but it's easier to bring him than leave him at home when they live in a field together etc


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## Bradsmum (28 October 2021)

Looks like it was fun, glad you enjoyed it. Everything crossed for Bear tomorrow, he has such a sweet face that he's one of those on the forum that is a fav. Good luck


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## Alibear (28 October 2021)

Lovely update and I hope all goes well tomorrow.


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## Berpisc (28 October 2021)

Good luck with the vet tomorrow,


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## CanteringCarrot (28 October 2021)

That looks like a good time! Hope all goes well with the vet tomorrow.


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## Jeni the dragon (28 October 2021)

Amazing looking break for you! Looked like the boys (and girls) had a ball!
Fingers firmly crossed for tomorrow!🤞🤞🤞


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## Michen (28 October 2021)

Bradsmum said:



			Looks like it was fun, glad you enjoyed it. Everything crossed for Bear tomorrow, he has such a sweet face that he's one of those on the forum that is a fav. Good luck
		
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He is honestly the sweetest little horse you could imagine. Bloody cheeky. But so loveable! Had him 18 months now and still never seen him put an ear back


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## Peglo (28 October 2021)

I’m a bit late to the Bog and Bear party but caught up the other week. It’s been a rollercoaster with Injuries but the highs were great to read. Your boys are such beauties! 

Your weekend away sounds like the best fun. What a lovely birthday trip! Rather envious 😍

I was sad to hear about your first pony passing. I think I know who he was and think a friend had him on loan for a bit. I would pass him in the field on the way to work. He was certainly a character.


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## The Fuzzy Furry (28 October 2021)

ElleSkywalker said:



			Like for the pictures and everything crossed for vets xx
		
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What she said! X


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## Michen (28 October 2021)

Peglo said:



			I’m a bit late to the Bog and Bear party but caught up the other week. It’s been a rollercoaster with Injuries but the highs were great to read. Your boys are such beauties!

Your weekend away sounds like the best fun. What a lovely birthday trip! Rather envious 😍

I was sad to hear about your first pony passing. I think I know who he was and think a friend had him on loan for a bit. I would pass him in the field on the way to work. He was certainly a character.
		
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Michen? Ah you must have known him up in Orkney then! He was certainly a character… frankly he was a pain in the arse but everyone loved him anyway 🤣


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## Peglo (28 October 2021)

Michen said:



			Michen? Ah you must have known him up in Orkney then! He was certainly a character… frankly he was a pain in the arse but everyone loved him anyway 🤣
		
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Yes knew him up here. They are the ones that teach you the most 😂 
Best of luck with the vet tomorrow. I will keep everything crossed!


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## Michen (28 October 2021)

Peglo said:



			Yes knew him up here. They are the ones that teach you the most 😂
Best of luck with the vet tomorrow. I will keep everything crossed!
		
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Oh that's so lovely! I went to visit him once, such a beautiful place.

Thank you


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## splashgirl45 (28 October 2021)

good luck with the vet


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## ycbm (28 October 2021)

Michen said:



			if he's lame or lamer tomorrow I really don't know what I will do with him but I think it will inevitably be PTS
		
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I would take him and give him the winter off work on hill grazing and review in spring and then PTS at my expense if he still isn't right,  Michen.  I've always liked him as you know.  Fingers crossed for you that this is not an offer you will need to take me up on.  
.


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## palo1 (28 October 2021)

So glad you enjoyed Wild Wales!  The terrain is fantastic training - when they can cross that confidently at speed, you know you can go anywhere  !!


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## Michen (28 October 2021)

ycbm said:



			I would take him and give him the winter off work on hill grazing and review in spring and then PTS at my expense if he still isn't right,  Michen.  I've always liked him as you know.  Fingers crossed for you that this is not an offer you will need to take me up on. 
.
		
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Thanks, I will be guided by what my vet says re his likelihood for longevity etc.


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## Michen (28 October 2021)

palo1 said:



			So glad you enjoyed Wild Wales!  The terrain is fantastic training - when they can cross that confidently at speed, you know you can go anywhere  !!
		
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Oh yeah, Bog made mince meat of it


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## palo1 (29 October 2021)

Good luck today Bear!


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## TPO (29 October 2021)

Hope Bear gets a clean bill of health from the vet 🤞


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## Michen (29 October 2021)

Thanks guys. Eeeeeek feeling rather tense!


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## scats (29 October 2021)

Ahh got everything crossed for the lovely Bear xx


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## ycbm (29 October 2021)

Michen said:



			Thanks guys. Eeeeeek feeling rather tense!
		
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I'm puzzled that you don't already know whether he looks sound or not,  M, but good luck for the scan today.
.


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## Michen (29 October 2021)

ycbm said:



			I'm puzzled that you don't already know whether he looks sound or not,  M, but good luck for the scan today.
.
		
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Because I'm not a vet and I can't see very minor lameness- which is all it's ever been? I think it's fairly evident that most average horse owners can't spot minor lameness... especially when you see the posts on here where everyone disagrees on which leg 

Of course he "looks" sound, but he always has to the untrained eye.


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## ycbm (29 October 2021)

Michen said:



			Because I'm not a vet and I can't see very minor lameness- which is all it's ever been? I think it's fairly evident that most average horse owners can't spot minor lameness... especially when you see the posts on here where everyone disagrees on which leg 

Of course he "looks" sound, but he always has to the untrained eye.
		
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OK but then your previous post really puzzles me.  Surely you aren't contemplating putting a horse down which has a lameness so slight you can't see it?  
.


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## Peregrine Falcon (29 October 2021)

Fingers crossed for you both Michen.


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## Michen (29 October 2021)

ycbm said:



			OK but then your previous post really puzzles me.  Surely you aren't contemplating putting a horse down which has a lameness so slight you can't see it?
.
		
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ycbm I really don't need to justify the level of lameness, the consistency, my potential options for this horse if he's not sound after rest/treatment/rehab etc.

But yes, putting a horse down that was consistently 2/10 lame despite all of the above as a 5 year old would be a strong consideration to me- because his chances of a useful working future are pretty slim at that point.


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## ycbm (29 October 2021)

OK, thanks for the additional information.  I would expect most experienced horse owners to be able to see 2/10 lame,  so that clarifies things a lot, the lameness is visible by an expert.   

No of course you don't need to justify yourself,  but given that you posted that you would PTS when no lameness was visible,   I thought it was a fair question. I'm sorry if it upset you.  

I hope it goes well today. 
.


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## Michen (29 October 2021)

ycbm said:



			OK, thanks for the additional information.  I would expect most experienced horse owners to be able to see 2/10 lame,  so that clarifies things a lot.

No of course you don't need to justify yourself,  but given that you posted that you would PTS when no lameness was visible,   I thought it was a fair question. I'm sorry if it upset you.

I hope it goes well today.
.
		
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Lol, no I can't. I don't think many people can either. Boggle was 3/10 lame after canter work with his injury, not one instructor out of the many that saw him could see it. And that includes instructors who train the previous world champion..

My vet describes 1/10 lame as being inconsistent and not every stride. 2/10 lame is as minor as it gets but is every stride. I don't think it's unusual to not be able to see that as an average owner.

For me what I need to see with Bear is progress, that after 8 weeks of walk work he is getting better not worse. As combined with the perfectly healed lesion that would be a great sign that he's going in the right direction. If he's worse, after being put under very little pressure, IMO that's not a horse that's likely to stay sound in the future whatever is done.


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## Amymay (29 October 2021)

Good luck today.


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## BallyRoanBaubles (29 October 2021)

Good luck Michen, fingers crossed


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## Hormonal Filly (29 October 2021)

Good luck. Have everything crossed here for some good news!


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## southerncomfort (29 October 2021)

Hope it's good news today M.

If not, Bear has a big fanclub here and you might find someone willing to take him on even with an uncertain future.

I really hope he's fixed though and will be keeping everything crossed for you.


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## CanteringCarrot (29 October 2021)

Even the competition (dressage) judges here can't see lameness, so don't feel bad 🤣 plus some people will say everyone else's horse is lame, or he looks sore here or there, but can't/don't even look at their own horses 

Best of luck to you and Bear today.


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## Michen (29 October 2021)

CanteringCarrot said:



			Even the competition (dressage) judges here can't see lameness, so don't feel bad 🤣 plus some people will say everyone else's horse is lame, or he looks sore here or there, but can't/don't even look at their own horses 

Best of luck to you and Bear today.
		
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Indeed- most people I know have no idea when the vet declares their horse 1/2/3 even 4 tenths lame. Especially in a hind limb.

Otherwise we wouldn't need vets for those niggly not quite right horses 

Thanks CC xx


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## ycbm (29 October 2021)

Michen said:



			For me what I need to see with Bear is progress, that after 8 weeks of walk work he is getting better not worse.
		
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I completely understand that concern. I'm sorry I was confused by what seemed a sudden suggestion of PTS.  I hope you get good news today.  
.


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## Michen (29 October 2021)

So throwing my arms around my vet wasn’t my finest moment. But hey he knows me well so 🙈

Bear is sound and my god what a journey it’s been and £££ and disappointment to get him here. He’s pass a vetting sound. Obviously we need to see how he stands up to proper work but we will be taking it slow and he won’t be cantering until 2022 to be cautious.


What’s even more lovely is my vet said even if he was a companion or walk hack only sound he’d have a queue of people he knows willing to take him because he’s such a lovely person and so gentle. 

So I am super excited to full loan him to a brilliant friend who initially shared Bog. She’s been there through all the highs and lows of them both and loves them dearly, he will be her number one and he stays on the yard with Bog and I see him every day. 

Happy happy happy 😃


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## stangs (29 October 2021)

So happy for you! Onwards and upwards x


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## BBP (29 October 2021)

I’m super happy to read that! I was thinking whilst reading your previous posts that it took me about 4 years to fully recover from my own ligament injury, being sound and then unsound on and off, (partly because much like a horse I kept doing silly things!). But this is most excellent news!


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## CanteringCarrot (29 October 2021)

So happy for you! What a good outcome.


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## Peglo (29 October 2021)

So happy for you, Bear and Bog who gets to keep his pal! 
looking forward to more adventures from you all.


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## Amymay (29 October 2021)

Great news xx


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## SatansLittleHelper (29 October 2021)

So very happy for you and of course Bear ❤❤


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## ycbm (29 October 2021)

Great news, and a great reward for your efforts.
.


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## Michen (29 October 2021)

Thsnks all. So happy he can be someone's number 1 but I still get to kiss his lovely nose!

He really is the most gentle, happy sweet boy but not without quirks albiet very rare so I did giggle a bit with what my vet said and promptly showed a photo of him doing a gigantic buck out hacking the other day (he keeps his head in the air so never unseating whatsoever)


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## Michen (29 October 2021)

ycbm said:



			Great news, and a great reward for your efforts.
.
		
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Relieved the thousands plus on stem cell was worth it!!!


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## Michen (29 October 2021)

Thanks all. I'd be lying if I said it wasn't with a tiny tinge of sadness to hand him over because I really do love riding him BUT I don't have the time or need for two horses and Boggle is my absolute soulmate. And I'll still get to ride him when we do swapsies. 

Plus, what horse like him doesn't deserve to be the love of someone's horsey life.


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## scats (29 October 2021)

Amazing news! You know Bear is one of my favourites.


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## Ceriann (29 October 2021)

So pleased for you - not all owners take proper time to allow their horses to come properly right with an injury or niggly rehab and it’s so often what’s needed. Sounds like a fabulous arrangement with the loaner too.


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## The Fuzzy Furry (29 October 2021)

Just catching up, what a fab update (I'm one who hugged my vet, just the once lol).
So pleased for you x


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## Michen (29 October 2021)

The Fuzzy Furry said:



			Just catching up, what a fab update (I'm one who hugged my vet, just the once lol).
So pleased for you x
		
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I'm not sure what came over me, I'm the least huggy person ever! I literally just chucked my arms around him in the school. I didn't even do that when we had our "Bog" happy moments. But so much was riding on Bear being sound whereas with Bog his future was always with me whatever happened.

Poor chap


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## Laurac13 (29 October 2021)

Fantastic outcome 😁 well deserved for you both


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## Peregrine Falcon (29 October 2021)

I am sure your vet appreciated the gesture🤭. Is he single?

So pleased that Bear has come through sound for you. I hope his loaner takes as much care of him as you have done. Onwards and upwards for you all now.


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## Meredith (29 October 2021)

So very pleased to hear this news


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## Aperchristmastree (29 October 2021)

Great news! I'll get in the queue for if you ever need another home for him 🤣


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## Michen (29 October 2021)

Peregrine Falcon said:



			I am sure your vet appreciated the gesture🤭. Is he single?

So pleased that Bear has come through sound for you. I hope his loaner takes as much care of him as you have done. Onwards and upwards for you all now.
		
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Haha no very much married and twice my age but has been the biggest supporter of my horses over the last few years. Could never have got through it all without such a bloody good, sensible, solid vet sharing the highs and lows.

Bears loaner will take better care of him than me


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## SEL (29 October 2021)

I'm so happy and relieved to read this! I was half wondering if you'd want a companion home if it didn't go well and it sounds like you'd have had a queue. Loaning to his sharer is the perfect outcome


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## Michen (29 October 2021)

SEL said:



			I'm so happy and relieved to read this! I was half wondering if you'd want a companion home if it didn't go well and it sounds like you'd have had a queue. Loaning to his sharer is the perfect outcome
		
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I just didn’t think there would be the market for one. But my vet rates him so clearly there is! Am trying to pacify Bog that he’s not thought of in the same way


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## palo1 (29 October 2021)

Blooming well done you Michen and Bear!!   Fabulous outcome and so, so lovely for Bear if bittersweet for you.  Lucky horse to have you on side.  A nice horse will always be desirable so he was so worth all the hard work.


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## Ambers Echo (29 October 2021)

So pleased for you! 😊


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## Surbie (29 October 2021)

So pleased for you Michen, you've had quite the journey with both horses and it's fabulous that, after all your hard work, Bear is going to a home you know and trust.


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## Jeni the dragon (30 October 2021)

Excellent news! So glad for you both!


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## Rosemary28 (30 October 2021)

Brilliant news, I’m so pleased for you 😊


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## Bradsmum (30 October 2021)

Like, like, like, like, like!!!!!!   Fantastic news and I'm so glad Bear came to you because who knows what might have become of him. Glad he & Boggle will still be on the same yard and that you'll all be able to hack out together.


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## J&S (30 October 2021)

Phew....... is all i can say!


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## Hormonal Filly (2 November 2021)

So pleased for you Michen. Lucky Bear!


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## Michen (22 June 2022)

A little Bear update. 2.5 years later and he’s no longer mine! Feels weird to have finally sold him. A slightly longer turnaround than expected. What a bleak thread this was at times but he is sound, fit, happy. Has ok feet, no liver issues and in full work. Doing baby dressage tests and clear rounds. And has a home for life with my very good friend whose been loaning him and her family. 

Bog and I are hopefully off on a VERY big adventure together all being well at the end of the summer… that’ll be a whole other thread if it happens. I don’t want to jinx it as it’s not a given yet. 

So a little sad although for now the boys continue to live together for now so nothing really changes. 

Thanks HHO for helping me pick a goodun. He’s not been the most simple but his happy disposition always made me a little fonder of him than I wanted to admit. He’s come a long way from the trembling wreck that I picked up from Chobham services at 2am and I’m so glad he’s found his “person” who feels about him how I feel about Bog. What every horse deserves eh


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## Bernster (22 June 2022)

Ahhhh he seemed like a real sweetie. Glad he’s gone to a good home.


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## Jeni the dragon (22 June 2022)

Lovely to see him find a person of his own!


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## Michen (22 June 2022)

Bernster said:



			Ahhhh he seemed like a real sweetie. Glad he’s gone to a good home.
		
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Yep. Still never seen his ears go back at anything or anyone ever. Not sure he knows they can!


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## SashaBabe (22 June 2022)

Lovely photos.  So glad it ended well.


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## Hormonal Filly (22 June 2022)

Aww. Love the photos.. so glad he’s doing so well. A lovely end to this post


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## ElleSkywalker (22 June 2022)

But the real question is....is she keeping the name Bear? What a lovely ending to yours and Bears story 🤗


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## scats (22 June 2022)

Ah Bear is my favourite, so glad he has a lovely home


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## The Fuzzy Furry (22 June 2022)

So pleased for you M - and Bear too 🙂
Looking forward to hearing about your potential next adventure with Boggle 😎


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## Michen (22 June 2022)

ElleSkywalker said:



			But the real question is....is she keeping the name Bear? What a lovely ending to yours and Bears story 🤗
		
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Of course! She’s known him from day 1 so always Bear. Plus my leaving gift to him was a lovely headcollar with his name engraved on a plate on it so… Bear forever 🤣


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## MuddyMonster (22 June 2022)

So pleased for Bear, his new owner & you


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## BallyJ (23 June 2022)

This is amazing to hear! I've loved keeping up with this thread! -  Will definitely be looking for your input come January when I'm looking for my own Connie!


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