# Vaccinate or not vaccinate? Shetland ponies.



## alm2594 (5 September 2014)

Hi guys! 

I'm new to the forum so hope I'm posting in the right place! 

I'm getting two beautiful shetland boys (ages 8 & 15) at the end of the month.  When I went to see them the other day I asked all the usual questions bar one. If they were vaccinated or not? I'm guessing from their history they haven't been as they are not currently registered with a vet.  I just wondered peoples opinions on whether I should get them vaccinated if they haven't been previously? Or should I leave them as they haven't had any issues before? Also if anyone could recommend a good equine vet in the Chorley/Preston area too? 

Any help or information (past experiences etc) would be greatly appreciated! 

Thanks


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## ann-jen (5 September 2014)

All horses should be vaccinated for tetanus. Horses are uniquely sensitive.


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## alm2594 (5 September 2014)

That's what I thought but just wanted to check with others first.


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## lelly (5 September 2014)

Some people never vaccinate others always do. I always had my competition horses vaccinated because they were mixing with others. I have a Shetland gelding who has never been vaccinated. He's still alive 23 years on. The gypsies never vaccinate theirs. Its your choice.


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## paulineh (5 September 2014)

I would always vaccinate for Tetanus as I have seen the results of a horse with Tetanus and it is not very nice.

The Tetanus vaccination is only done every 2 years so not too expensive.  

I personally always vaccinate for flu as well.


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## Moomin1 (5 September 2014)

lelly said:



			Some people never vaccinate others always do. I always had my competition horses vaccinated because they were mixing with others. I have a Shetland gelding who has never been vaccinated. He's still alive 23 years on. The gypsies never vaccinate theirs. Its your choice.
		
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That's not an excuse not to vaccinate a horse.  All horses should be vaccinated for tet - it's a horrific disease and there are no excuses for not vaccinating, as every horse is at risk from it.


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## Exploding Chestnuts (5 September 2014)

Moomin1 said:



			That's not an excuse not to vaccinate a horse.  All horses should be vaccinated for tet - it's a horrific disease and there are no excuses for not vaccinating, as every horse is at risk from it.
		
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^^^^^^^^^this ......... gypsies may elect for survival of the fittest, its hardly a recommendation! ........... its not what civilised people do............


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## Jsye (5 September 2014)

I would always vaccinate especially for tetanus.
I think Gilliver Vets are close to you heard many good things about them, a few people on my yard use them.


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## Exploding Chestnuts (5 September 2014)

lelly said:



			Some people never vaccinate others always do. I always had my competition horses vaccinated because they were mixing with others. I have a Shetland gelding who has never been vaccinated. He's still alive 23 years on. The gypsies never vaccinate theirs. Its your choice.
		
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I think you are confused, the flu vaccine is to protect against a disease which competition horses are more likely to meet than stay-at-homes, but tetanus is a different disease: the fact is that we can buy single or joint inoculations. 
Also the tetanus booster can be either 3 or 2 years, [ flu is annual or less], but that is after the initial jabs.
Older ponies should probably not start flu jabs, but I think that is on vet advice, and refers to much older ponies.
Tetanus can be caused by soil entering a puncture wound, a wound so small it may not even be noticed.


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## lelly (5 September 2014)

The op was asking for opinions and I gave mine. I am not confused about the vaccinations at all I always use the combined flu and tet. I am fully aware that they are both different. I am not a child I have had horses for years. I know of many people that have never vaccinated and never will. They probably won't comment on here though for fear of being slated.


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## Exploding Chestnuts (5 September 2014)

lelly said:



			The op was asking for opinions and I gave mine. I am not confused about the vaccinations at all I always use the combined flu and tet. I am fully aware that they are both different. I am not a child I have had horses for years. I know of many people that have never vaccinated and never will. They probably won't comment on here though for fear of being slated.
		
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I know people who don't feed their horses, or shoe their horses when needed,  they won't post that fact on here either and it does not make it right. 
You suggested OP could choose a path which would put ponies at unnecessary risk,  its a bit like all those people who elected not to use a combined vaccine on a baby, but then when there was an outbreak the were knocking the doors down to get a jab.
PS I expect the vet gives your horse the appropriate injection, either combined or single, unlikely it is always the combined.


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## Moomin1 (5 September 2014)

lelly said:



			The op was asking for opinions and I gave mine. I am not confused about the vaccinations at all I always use the combined flu and tet. I am fully aware that they are both different. I am not a child I have had horses for years. I know of many people that have never vaccinated and never will. They probably won't comment on here though for fear of being slated.
		
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It's highly irresponsible not to vacc for tetanus. Flu, fair enough, that's something that every individual can make a judgement based on risk factors with.  But tet really is horrendous, and can affect any horse, be they at home, out, or anywhere else, so there is no excuse whatsoever not to protect them from it.  Though, given your experience I am sure you are aware of that.


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## Moomin1 (5 September 2014)

Bonkers2 said:



			I know people who don't feed their horses, or shoe their horses when needed,  they won't post that fact on here either and it does not make it right. 
You suggested OP could choose a path which would put ponies at unnecessary risk,  its a bit like all those people who elected not to use a combined vaccine on a baby, but then when there was an outbreak the were knocking the doors down to get a jab.
		
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Quite! It always makes me laugh when someone uses the 'people won't comment through fear of being slated' comment....it's so predictable, and laughable that they seem to think it unacceptable that people point out welfare issues with regard their management, when they post on a public forum stating the very obvious welfare compromises they make...


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## shergar (5 September 2014)

My friend had her Shetland vaccinated ,within half an hour the pony was shaking and becoming stiff the vet came back and gave muscle relaxants ,by midnight the pony was picking at some hay , at next check early morning the pony was dead.
The drug company paid for a  PM and my friend never got the results.
 Another friends foal had a foot ball size swelling in her neck after her vaccinations she 
was kept in horspital for 3 weeks,and the same drug company paid the bill.


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## bonny (5 September 2014)

If I was getting two middle aged shetlands I wouldn't vaccinate them.


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## Capriole (5 September 2014)

I vaccinate mine whether they leave the field or not, as the ones that do go out and about are a risk to them.  Even if you choose not to vaccinate against flu, tet is a no brainer.


Moomin1 said:



			Quite! It always makes me laugh when someone uses the 'people won't comment through fear of being slated' comment....it's so predictable, and laughable that they seem to think it unacceptable that people point out welfare issues with regard their management, when they post on a public forum stating the very obvious welfare compromises they make...
		
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Usually 'people won't comment for fear of getting slated'  goes alongside comments about how many private messages they are getting in support of whatever it is, from the fear of slating people.  Hmm-hmm...


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## Orangehorse (5 September 2014)

Our vet's newsletter says they have a steady trickle of tetnus cases every year, so I agree with the tetnus jab.
As to the flu - depends on whether you are going to be taking them out and about mixing with strange horses.  If not, I wouldn't bother with the flu.

I have had mine vacinated for flu and tet since he was young, but I have never been asked to show his passport at shows.


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## Apercrumbie (5 September 2014)

Our mini is vaccinated for tetanus, but I think he's out of date on his flu.  As none of ours travel, we're not too worried about the flu and neither is the vet.  The option is always there to restart.  I understand not vaccinating at all, but tetanus is so horrible and as it's only ever 2 years I feel safer doing it.


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## Moomin1 (5 September 2014)

bonny said:



			If I was getting two middle aged shetlands I wouldn't vaccinate them.
		
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Why not?

Are middle aged shetlands immune to tetanus?


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## bonny (5 September 2014)

People aren't immune to Tetanus either and how many people on here get a vaccination for it regularly ?


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## Moomin1 (5 September 2014)

bonny said:



			People aren't immune to Tetanus either and how many people on here get a vaccination for it regularly ?
		
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Humans get two tetanus vaccinations in the first twenty years of life, and then they get one whenever they are deemed at risk ie with injury etc.  Horses require them two yearly because they eat grass and ingest soil.  Soil is a carrier of the Clostridium tetani, which causes tetanus. Humans don't require the vaccine two yearly because they don't tend to ingest soil daily....


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## Moomin1 (5 September 2014)

bonny said:



			People aren't immune to Tetanus either and how many people on here get a vaccination for it regularly ?
		
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Humans get two tetanus vaccinations in the first twenty years of life, and then they get one whenever they are deemed at risk ie with injury etc.  Horses require them two yearly because they eat grass and ingest soil.  Soil is a carrier of the Clostridium tetani, which causes tetanus. Humans don't require the vaccine two yearly because they don't tend to ingest soil daily....


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## Moomin1 (5 September 2014)

Out of interest Bonny, do you vaccinate any of your horses against tetanus, or would it just be the 'middle age shetlands' you wouldn't?  (Assuming you own horses).


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## bonny (5 September 2014)

Moomin1 said:



			Out of interest Bonny, do you vaccinate any of your horses against tetanus, or would it just be the 'middle age shetlands' you wouldn't?  (Assuming you own horses).
		
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The only horses that I have ever had vaccinated are one's that had to in order to compete....


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## Moomin1 (5 September 2014)

bonny said:



			The only horses that I have ever had vaccinated are one's that had to in order to compete....
		
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Why is that exactly?  Is it down to money, not being bothered, or because you honestly think your horses are not at any risk?


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## Exploding Chestnuts (5 September 2014)

bonny said:



			People aren't immune to Tetanus either and how many people on here get a vaccination for it regularly ?
		
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Yes, on request, it is every ten years.


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## bonny (5 September 2014)

Moomin1 said:



			Why is that exactly?  Is it down to money, not being bothered, or because you honestly think your horses are not at any risk?
		
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I don't believe they are at any risk, plus I think the flu vaccine can be harmful and yes, it's expensive if not required.


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## Moomin1 (5 September 2014)

bonny said:



			I don't believe they are at any risk, plus I think the flu vaccine can be harmful and yes, it's expensive if not required.
		
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Every horse is at risk from tetanus.  I assume you would refuse to have your children vaccinated against it then too?  Flu vacc is completely different - that all depends on whether you are taking them within vicinity of other horses/yards etc.  So yes, that's an individual risk assessment.  Tetanus is carried in soil.   Just because you may not have yet had a horse who has suffered with it, doesn't mean you won't.

It never ceases to amaze me how people can be so blase about their animal's safety and health.


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## bonny (5 September 2014)

Lots of people don't have their children vaccinated anymore, although that's a different topic and in my life, despite knowing what must be 1000's of horses I have never know a case of tetanus. Vets will tell you it's essential for obvious reasons but in real life, as opposed to forum life, lots of people don't vaccinate for it.


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## Meowy Catkin (5 September 2014)

Sadly there are a lot of idiots out there who do take unnecessary risks with their horse's (and children's) health and not vaccinating for tetanus is just that. Some will get away with it, others won't.


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## bonny (5 September 2014)

Faracat said:



			Sadly there are a lot of idiots out there who do take unnecessary risks with their horse's (and children's) health and not vaccinating for tetanus is just that. Some will get away with it, others won't.
		
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Children are a bit different because they are vaccinated for contagious diseases with the idea of protecting everyone although there are still parents who refuse vaccinations for their own children on the grounds they think they can be harmful. Tetanus is different as it's not contagious, like I said I have never known a case of it, in the case of bad cuts etc an injection for it is given anyway. It's a personal choice, doesn't make anyone an idiot....


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## Meowy Catkin (5 September 2014)

To not vaccinate against tetanus is idiocy. No ifs or buts.


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## bonny (5 September 2014)

Faracat said:



			To not vaccinate against tetanus is idiocy. No ifs or buts.
		
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In your opinion !


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## Meowy Catkin (5 September 2014)

Some things are just facts and opinion doesn't enter into it. 

The vaccination exists, isn't stupidly expensive and tetanus is horrible and potentially deadly. It's a no brainer.


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## Moomin1 (5 September 2014)

Faracat said:



			Some things are just facts and opinion doesn't enter into it. 

The vaccination exists, isn't stupidly expensive and tetanus is horrible and potentially deadly. It's a no brainer.
		
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Bonny doesn't appear to like spending any money on vets for any of her animals Faracat.  By her own admission she has a dog who at certain times of year 'looks starved' and reportable, yet refuses to take it to a vet.


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## be positive (5 September 2014)

Tetanus is thankfully fairly rare not because it not around but because most people do vaccinate against it, if you scroll down to 5th Nov 2013 on the link below, my vets facebook page, you will see photos of a horse with tetanus, it looks fairly well in the photos, 3 days later it was dead!

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Isle-Valley-Equine-Clinic/561070353958964


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## Meowy Catkin (5 September 2014)

Thanks for putting that link up BP. I knew I'd read about recent tetanus cases somewhere but couldn't find the link myself.




			Sad news re the tetanus case - went down and couldn't rise last night so is now no longer with us.
A salutary lesson on the benefits of vaccinating against this totally preventable disease. The cost is about 1% of the cost of horseshoes. DO IT NOW.
		
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M - I don't know what to say.


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## bonny (5 September 2014)

Been away googling to try and get some idea of the numbers of horses with tetanus but I have failed apart from Ontario where it's less than 5 a year ! Also been reading on the latest research about vaccinations and how researchers are increasingly thinking we are over vaccinating our animals. Horses and our immune systems work in a similar way, humans are advised to have tetanus every 10 years, very few do, does anyone on here know of anyone contracting tetanus ? The veterinary industry makes a lot of money out of vaccinating horses and pets, people considering whether it's necessary or not are not idiots just because they can think for themselves !


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## bonny (5 September 2014)

Moomin1 said:



			Bonny doesn't appear to like spending any money on vets for any of her animals Faracat.  By her own admission she has a dog who at certain times of year 'looks starved' and reportable, yet refuses to take it to a vet.
		
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I have a collie, I've bred generations of the same family, all amazing dogs and the present dog is the last of a line that I've had since I left home. They have all been much loved, worked sheep, done agility and been a big part of my life. The remaining one has been casting her coat and as usual losing weight at the same time, she is old, has done this all her life, twice a year without fail. I posted wondering if anyone knew why as it seems strange to me, that's all. My dog is skinny yes, but does not need to see a vet !


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## Exploding Chestnuts (6 September 2014)

bonny said:



			I have a collie, I've bred generations of the same family, all amazing dogs and the present dog is the last of a line that I've had since I left home. They have all been much loved, worked sheep, done agility and been a big part of my life. The remaining one has been casting her coat and as usual losing weight at the same time, she is old, has done this all her life, twice a year without fail. I posted wondering if anyone knew why as it seems strange to me, that's all. My dog is skinny yes, but does not need to see a vet !
		
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Seems to me that if there is a health / welfare consideration that a qualified professional is better placed to give advice than people on an internet forum, a vet would not diagnose without seeing the animal ........ and yes he would charge for his analysis.
I don't recall any local vets giving me much free advice,  however I take a precautionary approach to animal care, preferring to regularly spend a small amount than to gamble. 
If I found it impossible to pay out £10 per annum for tetanus protection, plus realistic costs for feed,  worming, farriery,  and teeth rasping and so on,  I would have to re think the whole "I am responsible horse owner" scenario.


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## ann-jen (6 September 2014)

A couple of points.... firstly the reason we don't see a huge number of documented tetanus cases is BECAUSE of routine vaccination. If nobody vaccinated the incidence would incline dramatically!
Secondly the injection given to unvaccinated animals that cut themselves is actually an antitoxin, which is different to a vaccine. Vaccines prevent disease, the anti-toxin tries to limit the effects of an animal either already infected or potentially infected. It is in no shape or form a suitable alternative.


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## L&M (6 September 2014)

We always vaccinated our shets for tetanus but not flu. They never left the field and rarely came into contact with other horses.


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## Exploding Chestnuts (6 September 2014)

bonny said:



			If I was getting two middle aged shetlands I wouldn't vaccinate them.
		
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against what ?    
I think OP should find a good equine vet and take their advice.
I have always had all my horses jabbed for tetanus, and after going through the coughing epidemics of the 1970's I think most people taking horses to places where they meet lots of other horses would also give flu jabs, the reason we don't have flu epidemics is because people keep inoculations against flu up to date.
I don't know any horses which have died, we had 100 to 160 horses per annum in the yard.


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## Tnavas (6 September 2014)

I don't vaccinate mine for anything. Fortunately we don't have equine flu. All the foals get an antitoxin at birth and when old enough receive a full course of tetanus jabs then only get another tetanus injection when they are injured. The mares get a top up when they are due to foal. 

Any animal, or human is susceptible to tetanus as any other. My Cocker Spaniels sire died of tetanus from a cut he got on the beach, let's all vaccinate our dogs for tetanus.

At one time humans, specially those who were involved with horses were vaccinated every three years, now it's suggested that we get an update every ten years. Vets always ask if tetanus jabs have been given and give the right volume if not.


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## ann-jen (6 September 2014)

Sorry but that's not correct. Horses are much more susceptible to tetanus than dogs.... its actually quite rare in dogs ... you were unfortunately very unlucky :-( so no dogs don't need vaccinating but horses most definitely do. And anti-toxin injections are not the same thing....


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## Exploding Chestnuts (6 September 2014)

Tnavas said:



			I don't vaccinate mine for anything. Fortunately we don't have equine flu. All the foals get an antitoxin at birth and when old enough receive a full course of tetanus jabs then only get another tetanus injection when they are injured. The mares get a top up when they are due to foal. 

Any animal, or human is susceptible to tetanus as any other. My Cocker Spaniels sire died of tetanus from a cut he got on the beach, let's all vaccinate our dogs for tetanus.

At one time humans, specially those who were involved with horses were vaccinated every three years, now it's suggested that we get an update every ten years. Vets always ask if tetanus jabs have been given and give the right volume if not.
		
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The tetanus vaccines are not all the same, the horse boosters are either 3 or 2 years , its not a question of giving an extra amount, obviously the dosage is related to the mass of the horse.
The danger with relying on anti toxins is that a small wound may be missed or the vet may not be called in time, so it is a high risk strategy, and even if a horse is up to date vet will often administer an anti toxin at the time of injury. 
Foals will take some immunity from an injected dam, but I think many vets give an extra one when they examine new foals.
Same thing with humans, yes it used to be annual then 3 years now 10 years, but the vaccines have developed over the years.


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## Tnavas (6 September 2014)

ann-jen said:



			Sorry but that's not correct. Horses are much more susceptible to tetanus than dogs.... its actually quite rare in dogs ... you were unfortunately very unlucky :-( so no dogs don't need vaccinating but horses most definitely do. And anti-toxin injections are not the same thing....
		
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Newborn foals are given anti toxin as their system cannot handle the toxoid until they are older. 

Treatment for a horse with tetanus is a large quantity of anti toxin.

There are areas where tetanus is more common, and areas where it is really rare. 

None of the school horses were vaccinated and many of them had been in the school for decades. I've worked with hundreds of horses over the past 40+ years and never yet had to deal with a horse with tetanus, yet I've known a dog die from it and my chiro's partner contract it after being pricked by a rose bush. She recovered!


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## ann-jen (6 September 2014)

Newborn foals hopefully receive maternal immunity via the mares colostrum assuming the mare is also adequately vaccinated. Vaccination of all young animals has to be when maternal antibodies have started to fall. Anti toxin is given as a precaution due to the very real possibility of umbilical infection. 
Clostridium tetani lives in soil and horse droppings and with horse always looking for novel ways if injuring themselves (!) it is very easy for them to succumb if immunologically naive. 
And as an aside I personally always get my own tetanus booster as well as the horses. Why would I wish to put either them or myself at any risk when so easily preventable?


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## abracadabra (6 September 2014)

lelly said:



			Some people never vaccinate others always do. I always had my competition horses vaccinated because they were mixing with others. I have a Shetland gelding who has never been vaccinated. He's still alive 23 years on. The gypsies never vaccinate theirs. Its your choice.
		
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Dear god.  

Yes, I get all my finer horse management tips from 'The Gypsies'.  

Why is it all the half assed owners sail along doing the bare minimum basic care and seemingly get away with it? Mind you I suppose their poor horses don't get diagnosed with anything ever because they hardly see a damn vet.


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## Moomin1 (6 September 2014)

abracadabra said:



			Dear god.  

Yes, I get all my finer horse management tips from 'The Gypsies'.  

Why is it all the half assed owners sail along doing the bare minimum basic care and seemingly get away with it? Mind you I suppose their poor horses don't get diagnosed with anything ever because they hardly see a damn vet.
		
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You have hit the nail on the head.  

It boils my pee to see certain posters on here who seem to have an aversion to paying for any vet treatment or examinations etc....and they seem to think they are justified in not doing so by saying 'they have always been like this', 'they are fine, just skinny', 'I've never had a horse have tetanus therefore I won't pay for a vaccination'.


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## abracadabra (6 September 2014)

I know, pee boiled here too.
I should have said less than minimum basic care though tbh, cos that's what I feel some of these lacksidaisical people are offering.


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## Exploding Chestnuts (6 September 2014)

alm2594 said:



			Hi guys! 

I'm new to the forum so hope I'm posting in the right place! 

I'm getting two beautiful shetland boys (ages 8 & 15) at the end of the month.  When I went to see them the other day I asked all the usual questions bar one. If they were vaccinated or not? I'm guessing from their history they haven't been as they are not currently registered with a vet.  I just wondered peoples opinions on whether I should get them vaccinated if they haven't been previously? Or should I leave them as they haven't had any issues before? Also if anyone could recommend a good equine vet in the Chorley/Preston area too? 

Any help or information (past experiences etc) would be greatly appreciated! 

Thanks
		
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Welcome to the forum, and congratulations on initiating a really explosive thread, covering the whole spectrum of opinion, fact and fiction, fantasy and science.
All aspects of animal and human emotions are to be found on this forum, but not often in one thread 
Not sure if anyone actually recommended a vet [bump]


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## Murphy88 (6 September 2014)

bonny said:



			Been away googling to try and get some idea of the numbers of horses with tetanus but I have failed apart from Ontario where it's less than 5 a year ! Also been reading on the latest research about vaccinations and how researchers are increasingly thinking we are over vaccinating our animals. Horses and our immune systems work in a similar way, humans are advised to have tetanus every 10 years, very few do, does anyone on here know of anyone contracting tetanus ? The veterinary industry makes a lot of money out of vaccinating horses and pets, people considering whether it's necessary or not are not idiots just because they can think for themselves !
		
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As already stated, horses are uniquely sensitive to clostridium tetani, in comparison to humans/dogs etc, as well as being more exposed to the organism and more likely to have wound contamination with soil. Even so, any one who's ever stood on a nail or had a wound contaminated with dirt is always advised to get a tetanus booster. The reason we don't see many tetanus cases is because most responsible horse owners vaccinate; even if the risk is low, most people I'm sure would rather their horse didn't die a slow, painful death from an easily avoidable disease. And its certainly not that rare - I qualified as a vet in 2011 and saw 2 cases within my first 2 years of practice in Yorkshire. 

To the OP - Flu vaccination is something to discuss with your vet based on how likely they are to be exposed (bear in mind that they don't have to be going anywhere, if other horses in contact with them are going on/off premises then they will still be at risk) but I would definitely get tetanus vaccines. Yes, they could live their whole lives and never get tetanus. But you'll feel pretty awful if you don't vaccinate and have to watch them suffer and die.


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## Spring Feather (6 September 2014)

OP this may be of interest to you and help you make up your mind 

http://www.merckmanuals.com/vet/generalized_conditions/clostridial_diseases/tetanus.html


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## suzysparkle (6 September 2014)

I genuinely do not understand why anyone wouldn't vaccinate their horse against tetanus.

Many years ago as a child we lived in a cottage overlooking a big field where 4 horses were kept. We vaguely knew the owners from me being horse mad and always going to speak to them. Anyway, one day, my Mum and I were looking out the window and noticed 3 people at one of the horses. We went across and they said the horse was really unwell and needed to get into a stable. The vet had been and given him painkillers and instructed them to use 'any means necessary' to get the horse inside. Using a trailer was out of the question given the location. It took 5 of us 7 hours to get the horse to walk a distance of about 400m. We had to use buckets of feed, whips, shouting, plastic bags etc. During that time the vet came again to administer more painkillers. We finally got him into the stable. Two days later he was dead. The cause? A TINY cut (and I mean TINY, so small that if my horse had one that size I wouldn't do anything other than clean it with saline) which led to tetanus. 

Funnily I just got my bill in today for tetanus & flu, tooth rasp and call out. It was £80 (and £30 of that was the call out). If I'd just done the jab it would have been a lot less. If you have a vet that's good with teeth then it can all get done at once. If you can pair up with someone else at your yard, or a few people, get your horse vaccinated at the same time then cheaper still. I vaccinate for flu as I do go out and about, if I didn't, I wouldn't bother. To not vaccinate against tetanus however is really not wise. It is a horrible thing to happen to a horse which is easily prevented. 

Reactions to vaccinations are very rare. I have seen it once (and given I have 16 dogs, all vaccinated every 3 years, I see a lot of vaccinations....plus I used to work on a showjumping yard, all horses vaccinated) but the benefits far outweigh the risks.


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## shergar (6 September 2014)

A lot of horses react badly to vaccination ie abscesses ,Google reaction to vaccination,I spoke to the vet at B E V A and asked if a horse has an abscess following the vaccine is it actually rejected from the body , he could not answer that question, he did say they are aware there is a problem with the vaccine ,but could not say what the problem is because he does,not know.
Reading on the internet there is MURCURY in equine vaccinations,which is a known neurotxin.


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## MotherOfChickens (6 September 2014)

shergar said:



			A lot of horses react badly to vaccination ie abscesses ,Google reaction to vaccination,I spoke to the vet at B E V A and asked if a horse has an abscess following the vaccine is it actually rejected from the body , he could not answer that question, he did say they are aware there is a problem with the vaccine ,but could not say what the problem is because he does,not know.
Reading on the internet there is MURCURY in equine vaccinations,which is a known neurotxin.
		
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No, it is not the vaccine being rejected from the body. An abscess is caused by infection of the injection sire. All vaccines are delivered with an adjuvant, a substance that increases the immune response to the antigens ( eg part of a  toxin) and makes them more efficient. It's certainly not mercury these days although it was used in the past. My old horse used to have a serious reaction to one brand of flu vaccine, he was fine with others. Tetanus is too cheap to not vaccinate against, the disease has a poor prognosis, is horrendously painful for the horse and cost of anti-toxin is huge.


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## Tnavas (7 September 2014)

Moomin1 said:



			You have hit the nail on the head.  

It boils my pee to see certain posters on here who seem to have an aversion to paying for any vet treatment or examinations etc....and they seem to think they are justified in not doing so by saying 'they have always been like this', 'they are fine, just skinny', 'I've never had a horse have tetanus therefore I won't pay for a vaccination'.
		
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Moo in and abracadabra, some of us have been around horses in large numbers for a very long time, and when you can go through near on 50 years and never seen a case of tetanus despite being with horses both vaccinated and not you tend to realise it's not always necessary. 

It's not a question of being neglectful. It's 20years since I've needed to call out the vet. I only see her when my mare goes to stud or when the foals are given their tetanus course. 

I won't have a vet on the place when the foals are new born, I've seen friends lies foals to Rotovirus after the vet had been. I get the tetanus antitoxin from my vet and administer it myself. Stump is dipped in Dilute Iodine daily for a week.

The farrier opens foot abscesses - he does a better job. And after my young horse was returned with a cut hock a couple of years ago I wouldn't let a vet bandage my horses either. 

Vets may have qualifications but there are times when experience trumps their training.


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## shergar (7 September 2014)

Mother of chickens, If you Google NEUROTOXIN IN HORSE VACCINE, I read on that page ,HORSE VACCINATION PROTOCOL DEPAOLO ,EQUINE CONCEPTS , sorry I am not sure how
to do a link, if you have time may be you could take a look,and tell me is the information on there all out of date, thanks.


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## Tnavas (7 September 2014)

shergar said:



			Mother of chickens, If you Google NEUROTOXIN IN HORSE VACCINE, I read on that page ,HORSE VACCINATION PROTOCOL DEPAOLO ,EQUINE CONCEPTS , sorry I am not sure how
to do a link, if you have time may be you could take a look,and tell me is the information on there all out of date, thanks.
		
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To get a link, highlight the address bar, right click and copy. Click on where you want to paste, right click and paste. If on a touch screen, hold finger on address bar until it turns blue, then tap and chose copy, then tap where you want to paste it, press screen until bubble comes up and tap paste.


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## Gloi (7 September 2014)

I used to know an old farmer who bred Shires. He told me that when he was young, before they had vaccinations for tetanus, they used to lose a large number of their horses to it. Their farm was on clay land and there must have been a lot of tetanus in the soil. Their young horses would die of it at two or three years of age without any visible wounds to them. It was worked out in the end that what was happening was that when the horses shed their baby incisor teeth the tetanus toxin was getting in through the wounds in their gums as they grazed.

As we are still living in this area I make sure all mine are vaccinated and that I have a booster every 10 years too.


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## joycec (7 September 2014)

Tnavas said:



			Moo in and abracadabra, some of us have been around horses in large numbers for a very long time, and when you can go through near on 50 years and never seen a case of tetanus despite being with horses both vaccinated and not you tend to realise it's not always necessary. 

It's not a question of being neglectful. It's 20years since I've needed to call out the vet. I only see her when my mare goes to stud or when the foals are given their tetanus course. 

I won't have a vet on the place when the foals are new born, I've seen friends lies foals to Rotovirus after the vet had been. I get the tetanus antitoxin from my vet and administer it myself. Stump is dipped in Dilute Iodine daily for a week.

The farrier opens foot abscesses - he does a better job. And after my young horse was returned with a cut hock a couple of years ago I wouldn't let a vet bandage my horses either. 

Vets may have qualifications but there are times when experience trumps their training.
		
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Just because you've been lucky enough not to see a case doesn't mean you should be so irresponsible as to say vaccinations for tetanus aren't necessary for anyone. My vets see cases on a regular basis.

It may not be particularly common but it's a filthy disease and it's *PREVENTABLE*.


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## Tnavas (7 September 2014)

joycec said:



			Just because you've been lucky enough not to see a case doesn't mean you should be so irresponsible as to say vaccinations for tetanus aren't necessary for anyone. My vets see cases on a regular basis.

It may not be particularly common but it's a filthy disease and it's *PREVENTABLE*.
		
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Tetanus is known to be prevalent in some areas and not in others. Vaccinating your horse is a matter of choice not necessarily irresponsible if you choose not to. How many of you vaccinate for strangles? Which is also a horrible disease and far more prevalent than tetanus.

I didn't get my first tetanus shot until in my teens, we didn't have measles, mumps and rubella vaccinations either. The only shots we got were Smallpox and Polio. In our teens we were TB tested and I needed the vaccination. 

To date my mates never had a cut or open wound, she's 11 and been with me since she was 6months old. 

If I had an accident prone horse I certainly would vaccinate.


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## Meowy Catkin (7 September 2014)

joycec said:



			Just because you've been lucky enough not to see a case doesn't mean you should be so irresponsible as to say vaccinations for tetanus aren't necessary for anyone. My vets see cases on a regular basis.

It may not be particularly common but it's a filthy disease and it's *PREVENTABLE*.
		
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^ This.

Why anyone would advise that someone else should risk their horse dying in a truly horrific manner (full body convulsions that can break bones, unable to swallow, high temperature, high heart rate etc...) is just plain irresponsible. Maybe Tnavas is lucky because she/he lives in an area without much toxin in the soil, but how can they possibly know what the soil is like in the area that the many different readers of this thread have?

The main message of this thread to the multiple readers must be a responsible one and that is _always get in touch with your Vet to vaccinate for tetanus_. If you are in a very low risk area and you are one of the few where you don't need to vaccinate, I have no doubt that your Vet would know and tell you.


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## MotherOfChickens (7 September 2014)

shergar said:



			Mother of chickens, If you Google NEUROTOXIN IN HORSE VACCINE, I read on that page ,HORSE VACCINATION PROTOCOL DEPAOLO ,EQUINE CONCEPTS , sorry I am not sure how
to do a link, if you have time may be you could take a look,and tell me is the information on there all out of date, thanks.
		
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http://www.fda.gov/BiologicsBloodVaccines/SafetyAvailability/VaccineSafety/UCM096228

The site you looked at is an American one and many of the vaccines in his list aren't in use here. Also he's not anti vaccination but overvaccination and has an agenda of his own.
 It is true that there may not be an absolute need to keep vaccinating with certain vaccines-some have a longer lasting effect than others. There's no way of really evaluating this for every animal-although using titres for certain conditions is becoming more popular where the data is available to do it. With the tetanus vaccine being so widely used and for so long, it's seems to me that it's better to keep doing it than not. Don't forget that many drugs contain or are made up of something that in its pure form or natural state are harmful, but they do undergo rigorous safety testing. Some members of the population will always react to a drug/vaccine, that's just biology but for example, a couple of days of bute to cover some muscle stiffness is preferable to the rigid muscular paralysis and agony that is tetanus IMO.


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## Meowy Catkin (7 September 2014)

Tnavas, I'm actually quite shocked by the fundamental lack of medical understanding that you demonstrate in your posts in this thread.

I want to thank MOC for looking into Shergar's link and for her sensible answer.


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## ann-jen (7 September 2014)

There was a lot of teething problems with the strangles vaccine, mainly that it didn't seem to stand up to its shelf life and therefore it was withdrawn from the market over here for a lot of years while this was addressed. It has recently come back on the market, but as I understand it, it only lessens the chances of abscessation of the lymph nodes. Strangles is a whole different problem to tetanus, and a much harder problem to control for various reasons ..... but with the exception of a small number of cases its rarely fatal..... whereas tetanus is the complete opposite where only a small number of cases that actually survive! The two problems are hardly comparable really!


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## Tnavas (7 September 2014)

Faracat said:



			Tnavas, I'm actually quite shocked by the fundamental lack of medical understanding that you demonstrate in your posts in this thread.

I want to thank MOC for looking into Shergar's link and for her sensible answer.
		
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In what way?. I understand perfectly well what tetanus is and that horses because of their inclination to cut themselves makes them vulnerable. Tetanus has areas where it is more prevalent and areas where there are few or no recorded cases. 

I expect if I were in an area where it is prevalent I'd vaccinate. All mine have had a course at sometime in their lives. I just don't choose to vaccinate every year. My vets happy with that. When the youngster had his wolf teeth out he had a booster, but nothing since. When he cut his leg I phoned the vet to get permission for a booster which I gave him.


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## abracadabra (7 September 2014)

Tnavas said:



			Moo in and abracadabra, some of us have been around horses in large numbers for a very long time, and when you can go through near on 50 years and never seen a case of tetanus despite being with horses both vaccinated and not you tend to realise it's not always necessary. 

It's not a question of being neglectful. It's 20years since I've needed to call out the vet. (...)
Vets may have qualifications but there are times when experience trumps their training.
		
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Well bless your heart.  If you're trying to pull the 'I've got more experience that  you and been around a long time-card' you should really be sure that a.) you have got more experience, and b.) that someone else hasn't been around longer.  Not to mention being around a long time doesn't mean you know jack. It just means you've been around a long time.

Carry on giving dangerous advice on the interwebz though.  Can't believe the stuff you're spouting tbh. I do think you're being neglectful from what you said in this thread actually, I'm sure you know better than all the vets, rolls eyes...god help your horses...


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## Meowy Catkin (7 September 2014)

You compare completely incomparable vaccinations and diseases in your posts.


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## Tnavas (7 September 2014)

ann-jen said:



			There was a lot of teething problems with the strangles vaccine, mainly that it didn't seem to stand up to its shelf life and therefore it was withdrawn from the market over here for a lot of years while this was addressed. It has recently come back on the market, but as I understand it, it only lessens the chances of abscessation of the lymph nodes. Strangles is a whole different problem to tetanus, and a much harder problem to control for various reasons ..... but with the exception of a small number of cases its rarely fatal..... whereas tetanus is the complete opposite where only a small number of cases that actually survive! The two problems are hardly comparable really!
		
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It's used for the racehorses and studs here. While it may not stop the disease it certainly reduces the illness. We also have strict quarantine rules, my horses were quarantined for three months when the horse at the front of the block came down with it. It is controllable, just like Australia whipped out Equine Flu. UK could rid itself of both if it followed Australia's example.


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## Tnavas (7 September 2014)

Faracat said:



			You compare completely incomparable vaccinations and diseases in your posts.
		
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That hardly warrens such a comment!


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## Meowy Catkin (7 September 2014)

It certainly does, as it demonstrates a lack of medical understanding perfectly. 

Vaccinating for infectious diseases and something like tetanus, which is not infectious is completely different. There is no 'group/herd immunity' (where the majority of the population being vaccinated protects the unvaccinated to some degree) with tetanus and the only way to protect a specific animal is to vaccinate that specific animal. 

AJ has stated one reason why Strangles and Tetanus are not comparable.

I also stand by my comment that some of your posts are very irresponsible and I hope that any novice owner reading this thread isn't encouraged to think that they shouldn't consider tetanus as a health risk.


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## Tnavas (7 September 2014)

At no time have i said don't vaccinate - just said that I personally dont!

I know quite well thankyou the difference between infectious diseases and non infectious. While people are spouting irresponsible try getting Strangles under control - if people were not so selfish as to take horses out to shows with runny noses then we might get it sorted once and for all. I very nearly lost a horse many years ago when my lovely horse contracted it from another horse out hunting.

You might now like to go back and harrass all the others that said they don't vaccinate for tetanus.

I live in an area that rarely ever has any tetanus cases - therefore I don't vaccinate.


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## joycec (7 September 2014)

Tnavas you really are ignorant about this. Strangles is a disease which in most horses produces minor cold symptoms, some horses major cold symptoms and a small minority of cases major complications and an even smaller number of cases death. 

Tetanus is a disease which kills the vast majority of horses which develop symptoms and is a horrible, choking death.

I am absolutely shocked that you would advocate waiting to see if a horse in your area dies,  rather than use a safe and hugely effective vaccine.

You really are very, very irresponsible to post such stuff.

Please owners, ask your vet. I doubt if you'll find one in the whole country who wouldn't recommend vaccination unless there was another medical reason for the horse not to have it.


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## joycec (7 September 2014)

Tnavas said:
			
		


			I live in an area that rarely ever has any tetanus cases - therefore I don't vaccinate.
		
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Rarely ever?  Good God, you can't even write 'never' and yet you don't vaccinate!


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## Meowy Catkin (7 September 2014)

Hell, I live in an area with hardly any cases of tetanus, but it's not because there isn't tetanus in the soil (there is) it's because the vast majority of owners vaccinate for it.

I have responded to Bonny's posts too on this subject (if you look back) so you haven't been singled out. I'm sorry that you feel harassed, but normally you give very sensible advice on this forum and I was very surprised that you gave bad advice on this thread.


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## Moomin1 (7 September 2014)

I actually am lost for words.


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## Moomin1 (7 September 2014)

Faracat said:



			Hell, I live in an area with hardly any cases of tetanus, but it's not because there isn't tetanus in the soil (there is) it's because the vast majority of owners vaccinate for it.

I have responded to Bonny's posts too on this subject (if you look back) so you haven't been singled out. I'm sorry that you feel harassed, but normally you give very sensible advice on this forum and I was very surprised that you gave bad advice on this thread.
		
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This.


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## Tnavas (7 September 2014)

Instead of having a go at me re read my posts. ALL mine have had a course, my broodmare had hers before her first foal and boosters 6 weeks before her foals were due.

The youngsters have all had a course.

I just don't choose to vaccinate every year. Vet agrees with me it's not necessary that the protection lasts a long time.


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## Exploding Chestnuts (9 September 2014)

Tnavas said:



			Instead of having a go at me re read my posts. ALL mine have had a course, my broodmare had hers before her first foal and boosters 6 weeks before her foals were due.

The youngsters have all had a course.

I just don't choose to vaccinate every year. Vet agrees with me it's not necessary that the protection lasts a long time.
		
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I think it has already been explained that the vaccine  for tetanus and which requires regular boosters  is not the same as the serum used for foals and sometimes for occasions when an animal has a wound likely to be infected.
If a vet is allowing clients to elect when and what to use , this would not fit with UK vet practice. Vets here always oversee an injection and they use the vaccine in accordance with manufacturer and industry guidelines [ which may be slightly different], they sign the passport and the vaccine code label is put in the entry alongside the signature.
There is no need to vaccinate for tetanus annually, the vaccines used in the UK are either 2 or 3years. If you do not want to cover your horses that is up to you, but you seem to be 100 % certain that they are covered.  They have all had the initial course, it seems madness to risk losing cover. It's science, we tend to avoid expressions like "for a long" time when "for two years" is recommended [when the drug is designed for that]..


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## Tnavas (9 September 2014)

Vets here allow their experienced clients to administer Tetanus injections. Big studs have them in quantity as during the foaling season the foals tend not to adhere to surgery hours.

Often vet gives the first injection, fills out the Vaccination card, sticks the label on it and signs. The subsequent injections are handed over along with dates to be given. On completion of the course the card, along with the stickers from the vaccinations is taken into the vets and signed.

I guess we aren't quite as strict here, vets having a respect for experienced peoples ability to give injections

We are also able to give antibiotic injections as well.


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## Tiddlypom (9 September 2014)

Tnavas said:



			I guess we aren't quite as strict here, vets having a respect for experienced peoples ability to give injections

We are also able to give antibiotic injections as well.
		
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Lay people can give I/M injections, such as tetanus and antibiotics, here in the UK too. Being POM medicines, the vet has to authorise the use first, and dispense them with suitable instructions to a competent party. However, no vet should sign any vaccination record unless they have administered, or overseen, the injections themselves. To do so, would risk serious disciplinary action if found out.

I have continued giving tetanus booster injections to my retired home kept horses and ponies, who no longer need an up to date flu/tet certificate for competition purposes. The boosters are done at a minimum of two yearly intervals for animals with a complete initial course.


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## Exploding Chestnuts (9 September 2014)

Tiddlypom said:



			Lay people can give I/M injections, such as tetanus and antibiotics, here in the UK too. Being POM medicines, the vet has to authorise the use first, and dispense them with suitable instructions to a competent party. However, no vet should sign any vaccination record unless they have administered, or overseen, the injections themselves. To do so, would risk serious disciplinary action if found out.

I have continued giving tetanus booster injections to my retired home kept horses and ponies, who no longer need an up to date flu/tet certificate for competition purposes. The boosters are done at a minimum of two yearly intervals for animals with a complete initial course.
		
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I would prefer to give my pony injections, but vets here do not encourage it, and when I was left some antibiotic the instructions were frankly over reactive, not what I had been trained to do, and I had to call for assistance, which would not have been required  if jabbed in the neck. Same thing with other instructions, which were taken from a book, not one my boy had read though.
I think all vets who want to work with equines should do more practical experience, some are OK. but that is not good enough.


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## Princess Rosie (9 September 2014)

Having seen the horrific result of tetanus in my friends horse, I would always urge people to vaccinate against tetanus, it's a booster every two years which costs about £18 for two years cover. Tetanus can be very easily picked up from soil. 

Having moved from Lancs, I would recommend Alistair from Oakhill vets at longridge, we were south west Preston and their call out charge was reasonable too. Alistair was amazing with our wee minis and very patient (one of ours is terrified of vets and can smell them a mile off!), they used to have a girl also who was amazing, think possibly Amanda?


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