# Linda Parelli teaching how to hit with the snap



## Amaranth (7 September 2010)

Hmm.. any thoughts?

http://www.barnmice.com/video/linda-parelli-shows-how-to


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## LauraWheeler (7 September 2010)

I couldn't watch that as I just feel sick the min I hear her voice.

So from what I understand she is teaching you how to HIT the horse right  I thought Parelli was ment to be a kinder way to treat a horse. Oh I forgot it's just about making money isn't it not about the horses welfair. I have a horse whos been messed up by Parelli and it's taking me along time to regain his trust. I hate to think what this poor little pony went though before I took him on. 
I'm just glad he's safe now and hope people will soon see Parelli for what it is. Expencive horse abuse.


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## ldlp111 (7 September 2010)

that's pure and simple abuse really. when she has the white horse what is she trying to teach it being near a person is bad as he got punished everytime he was near his rider, who at one point he sniffed her for reassurance didnt get any though did he poor sod  all they are teaching is the horse must jump/move everytime you do? how is that teaching it to be calm and co-operative?


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## ldlp111 (7 September 2010)

just watched some more and horse is getting more stressed and spooky the more linda works with him


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## galaxy (7 September 2010)

I only watched the 1st minute or so.... but effectively she's teaching someone how to flick a rope so it "snaps" and hits the horse in the face?

Nice!


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## ldlp111 (7 September 2010)

omg at one point she says 'see how safe I am with him so far away!'
im lost for words


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## Katikins (7 September 2010)

ldlp111 said:



			just watched some more and horse is getting more stressed and spooky the more linda works with him 

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Ditto this, can't understand it at all.  Why would you want a horse that will end up spooky of YOU and also most probably headshy!  The thing that gets me the most with the Pepperoni technique is there is just never any reward for the horse.  How are they possibly meant to know when they are doing the right thing if they just get punished for every step they make?  Morons!!


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## Sarah Sum1 (7 September 2010)

The more I read about her, the more I want to slap her round the face with a muddy boot. 

ETA So basically, flap around and hit your horse in the face, so it is so scared to come near to you.! She looks so rough and agressive and the poor horse just looks confused and upset. Blooming idiot woman.


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## LauraWheeler (7 September 2010)

omg at one point she says 'see how safe I am with him so far away!'
		
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I've heard her say that alot. I always think "HA HA Linda come and try that with Horrid, He'll launch himself at you and stamp on you with both front feet" 
I'd never let her near him realy, She'd undo 8 months work in 8 seconds with the way she handles horses


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## ldlp111 (7 September 2010)

Katikins said:



			Ditto this, can't understand it at all.  Why would you want a horse that will end up spooky of YOU and also most probably headshy!  The thing that gets me the most with the Pepperoni technique is there is just never any reward for the horse.  How are they possibly meant to know when they are doing the right thing if they just get punished for every step they make?  Morons!!
		
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exactly, surely you want the horse to want to be with you to accept you as his partner and not be thinking omg am i doing the right thing just looks confusing for the poor horse


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## ldlp111 (7 September 2010)

LauraWheeler said:



			I've heard her say that alot. I always think "HA HA Linda come and try that with Horrid, He'll launch himself at you and stamp on you with both front feet" 
I'd never let her near him realy, She'd undo 8 months work in 8 seconds with the way she handles horses 

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i'd love her to meet her match though, and watch her run whos the alpha now


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## Capriole (7 September 2010)

ok, looks easy enough...flick,snap, slap....yes, think i can do that...

now where is she...?


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## Amymay (7 September 2010)

God I wish she and her stupid sun visor would just vanish.

Really, she is an affront to humanity!


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## georgie0 (7 September 2010)

What a plank.  One day hopefully she'll meet a horse that'll flatten her and save someone else the trouble!


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## LauraWheeler (7 September 2010)

Katikins said:



			Ditto this, can't understand it at all.  Why would you want a horse that will end up spooky of YOU and also most probably headshy!  The thing that gets me the most with the Pepperoni technique is there is just never any reward for the horse.  How are they possibly meant to know when they are doing the right thing if they just get punished for every step they make?  Morons!!
		
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Parelli is about making the horse more scared of you than it is of anything else. Simples. 
I've known it work with some horses but all you end up doing is breaking there spirit and you end up with a VERY unhappy horse who has no bond with you but does everything you tell it to just so you won't hit it anymore.


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## Bowen4Horses (7 September 2010)

Sorcerers Apprentice said:



			ok, looks easy enough...flick,snap, slap....yes, think i can do that...

now where is she...?
		
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*chuckles*


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## somethingorother (7 September 2010)

Ah linda, my idol.

I like how she hits the grey on the nose with the carrot stick for being confused.

She needed to 'protect herself'... you know, because he's being so aggressive in his walking around next to her, sometimes sniffing the grass, and putting up with being hit on the nose. That's a dangerous horse right there.


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## Lady La La (7 September 2010)

How/Why on Earth do Parelli have such a huge following?


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## Meowy Catkin (7 September 2010)

It's a cult. The followers are brainwashed and really do believe all the pseudo-science carp about their horses only thinking with one side of their brain at a time.


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## galaxy (7 September 2010)

I don't quite know how to put this into words, but LP looks so busy and tense....  The horse is excited and interested in its surroundings.  What would be wrong with CALMLY getting the horse to pay attention to you without all the flapping, ropes and sticks flying etc. She just looks angry with her body language.

The "looks at how safe I am this far away" comment made me laugh.  We had a Parelli person at our yard who always tried to walk that far away from her horse.  More than once he spun and kicked her!


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## Sarah Sum1 (7 September 2010)

Lady La La said:



			How/Why on Earth do Parelli have such a huge following?
		
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Because it sounds good on paper, all natural and kind blah blah blah! I didn't realise how much wacking, flapping, spooking, hitting etc goes into it! These videos will hopefully wise people up.


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## Seahorse (7 September 2010)

OMG I am gobsmacked, what the **** is she doing to that poor horse? The bit where Linda takes over about 5.26 that poor little horse is just walking along quite happily then she starts yanking him about and chasing him backwards 

Now she's telling her to make the clip hit him in the face! Can't watch any more, stupid stupid woman


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## TinselRider (7 September 2010)

Ahh we do not understand....the horse surely appreciates the challenge of being confused as to why it is constantly being hit........ MAY THE PARELLIS PRAY FOR US!!

 
I was NEVER a fan of parelli and I find some of their methods dusgusting to watch! I cannot wait for the day they start on a not so honest horse and recieve some of the treatment they dish out!!


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## stressedmum (7 September 2010)

Oh god i couldnt watch it to the end, everything she did was aggressive. Poor poor pony getting hit in the face like that, what the hell was that teaching! I do admit to using join up at the moment with my feral ill-treated mare, but thats more so to gain her trust, i dont know jot about parelli apart from you dont use a bit and you clonk your horse on the head a lot lol!


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## piggyinablanket (7 September 2010)

At 3.15 or so, why on earth did she hit him in the face ??????? Shocked. If she whipped my pony in the face like that Id have FREAKED! Cant stand this woman she infuriates me. I feel she likes it when they are naughty, she gets a kick out of it when she has to reprimand. I can hear it in her voice. Check it out at just before 10 mins. Pony is actually behaving but is being used to teach the owner the 'snap'. One confused and abused pony.


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## Dobby (7 September 2010)

I only watched the first few minutes as I hate winding myself up watching things like this.

Is this a typical example of Parelli in action? I've never read too much into it but thought it was like Monty Roberts/Intelligent Horsemanship type thing, which seemed alright to me


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## Bessieboo (7 September 2010)

Words fail me.

What a complete tool that woman is.  No, sorry a tool has a use normally and as far as I can tell that woman has no use whatsoever.  She is an afront to the senses.


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## TinselRider (7 September 2010)

Monty roberts doesn't use sticks and big arse clips to whack a horse in the head. I've only ever seen him use a dually and a lunge line to drive a horse in a round pen, He works mainly using body language.


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## tinkandlily (7 September 2010)

What the hell is she trying to achive? getting him to move backwards/move out of her space? just looks like she's scaring the poor bugger, poor thing doesn't know if it coming or going


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## Sarah Sum1 (7 September 2010)

Seems to me her methods involve making the horse scared to move, rather than teaching it to have respect for you. What maddens me more, is these people allow her to do it to their horses!


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## Pixxie (7 September 2010)

she infuriates me!!!  what a thing to teach someone and what a thing to teach a horse that walking side by side with his owner comfortbly sharing space is bad?!!!!!totally beyond me

that poor horse looked so terrified infact the exact way Marley looks when you try and put things on his face.....let me tell you hed have shown her doing that does NOT make you safe  daft cow!!! 

Parelli.....how to confuse your horse and deeply disturb them....Headshy'ness' 100% guaranteed....if horse does not become headshy $1 back from your extortionate payout to our wonderful 'cult'


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## tinkandlily (7 September 2010)

stressedmum said:



			Oh god i couldnt watch it to the end, everything she did was aggressive. Poor poor pony getting hit in the face like that, what the hell was that teaching! I do admit to using join up at the moment with my feral ill-treated mare, but thats more so to gain her trust, i dont know jot about parelli apart from you dont use a bit and you clonk your horse on the head a lot lol!
		
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I love doing join up, there is no hitting/yanking or pulling about whatsoever, Monty will always be the best natural horseman.


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## spaniel (7 September 2010)

More Linda twaddle.  Let the horse walk a little further behind next time Linda....it will have a much bigger run up when it decides to flatten you.  Safe....I dont think so....one day one of them is going to get you.


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## nativetyponies (7 September 2010)

spaniel said:



			one day one of them is going to get you.
		
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And I for one would pay good money to see that.


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## Capriole (7 September 2010)

nativeponies said:



			And I for one would pay good money to see that.
		
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thats one peperroni demo id be happy to see


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## toffeesmarty (7 September 2010)

That is so sad.

What a terrible way to treat a sweet natured little horse who just wants to walk next to his owner on a loose rein without a negative thought on 'the right hand side of his brain'. If that is bad manners its no wonder they all get turned into zombies.


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## JessandCharlie (7 September 2010)

Aah yes, that's the natural, trustworthy behaviour of a leader. Definitely not the abusive, aggressive behaviour of a predator. I can see how that really gains the trust and respect of your horse. 

In fact, isn't that the vision of a 'natural' leader to a horse. A mad woman on the end of a rope brandishing an orange stick and clonking it round the face with a metal clip. 

I seriously don't get it and couldn't watch beyond the clonking of the fence. Enough for me.


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## 4faults (7 September 2010)

Cannot abide her!!! or him for that matter and their stupid stupid 'method'


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## starbar (7 September 2010)

Horrible horrible horrible woman.  If she ever came anywhere near me or my horses I may just be compelled to beat her round the head with a large metal clip......makes my blood boil


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## JessandCharlie (7 September 2010)

I'm sorry, I had to laugh at the poor girl as said mad woman with an orange stick and leather chaps dragged her by her arm backward and forward. 

I think she nearly hit the deck at one point.


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## ecarylloh (7 September 2010)

HOW can people pay extortionate amounts of money to learn to do this to their horse? Parelli followers say that non-Parelli people don't understand?

I don't understand.


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## tinkandlily (7 September 2010)

toffeesmarty said:



			That is so sad.

What a terrible way to treat a sweet natured little horse who just wants to walk next to his owner on a loose rein without a negative thought on 'the right hand side of his brain'. If that is bad manners its no wonder they all get turned into zombies.
		
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I for one love my horses to walk quietly next to me , not a mile behind, for one, you can't see whats its doing, if it panicks its going to run straight through you.


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## Lisamd (7 September 2010)

Gggrrrr makes me see red - bloody parelli crap!

The people who bump up the bank balance of these so called 'horse people' are the ones to blame i'm afraid. Taking nothing away from the fact that Linda is a raving looney and cruel to boot, if people didn't buy the DVD's and join the stupid 'cult' they may dissappear for good.

I have had horses for donkeys years, nearly all youngsters and a few older 'ruined' horses and never had i had to resort to these sort of shocking measures to get them to do anything - let alone the basic task of leading! They all load. travel, lead and compete in the correct manner - why? Not because i pay a fortune to Parelli but because i use my own intuition and knowledge from years of watching, ADORING and working with horses. A couple of quid and an afternoon with this 'crazy' won't buy people that, once people start to see through this smokescreen that is earning the parelli's a forture and deal with the fact that maybe, just maybe they are scared/not capable/over horsed the horse world will be a lot happier place to exist - especially for the poor horses that have Parelli inflicted on them - don't forget they probably only react the way they do beacuse of someones interataction with them in the first place.

Right i'm going off to hide before i get gunned down or chased with a carrot stick...


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## Mogg (7 September 2010)

admit id never heard of Parelli till i came on HHO, having been out of horsey type stuff for a good 10 years, but having watched that i have to say that I'M confused at exactly what she was trying to achieve and im human (except before 9am )

was she trying to say that horse should not be anywhere near the handler when its being led and to achieve this you flap your arms to make it keep its distance? and then do wavy rope thing to make the snap hit under the chin when it won't back up?  im not even venturing into 'left brain/right brain' territory

i know you dont want a horse/pony barging you or pulling ahead when ur walking it in hand but from my uninformed and unknowledgeable mind arent you just giving it a good run up when it finally gets pissed off at being 'funky chickened' by keeping it that 'safe' distance?

Even i with my limited knowledge can walk my sisters horse quietly in hand, with the use of voice and if needed, elbow/body, if he gets a bit bargey. 

the horse just looked confused toward the end of the vid with the owner flapping the rope, and even more so when LP took over.  Even at the start i wanted the fence post to unstick itself and whack her in the shins


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## JessandCharlie (7 September 2010)

Having watched it the whole way through I think I get it. Get too far away and the expensive cheesewire-type-headcollar on that obviously naughty and dangerous horse gets yanked. Get too close and the expensive clip smacks him in the face. 

I get it now, makes perfect sense doesn't it? 

^^This was meant in tongue-in-cheek by the way. Bring on the sarcasm mark.


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## 4faults (7 September 2010)

Just sat and watched a bit more of it and omg  what is she doing? If i waved a rope in my horses face he would back away too. At no point what so ever is that poor animal given any reassurance. Such a good horse to not turn round and kick her!! Grrrrrrrrr!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Annoys me so much!!!!!!!!

Much prefer Monty Roberts


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## rosie fronfelen (7 September 2010)

tinkandlily said:



			I for one love my horses to walk quietly next to me , not a mile behind, for one, you can't see whats its doing, if it panicks its going to run straight through you.
		
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the grey horse did nothing wrong, i'd rather they'd walk next to me rather than half a mile behind- the woman is a bitch  and i am disgusted!!


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## tinkandlily (7 September 2010)

rosiefronfelen said:



			the grey horse did nothing wrong, i'd rather they'd walk next to me rather than half a mile behind- the woman is a bitch  and i am disgusted!!
		
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i never said it was doin anything wrong


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## martlin (7 September 2010)

One thing is certain, that woman sure as hell needs some lessons in deportment... she looks like an angry chicken.


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## Ilovefoals (7 September 2010)

She's an utter arse and the girl looks as terrified of her as the poor horse! Stupid stupid idiot woman!!!!


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## Dobby (7 September 2010)

What a moron! The poor sod doesn't have a clue what they're after, and even if it was effective, violent and painful tactics to train a horse to lead nicely is not the way to go.

And the girl is just as bad for going along with it, if that were my horse I'd've told her where to shove it. Ugh!


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## misst (7 September 2010)

OMG  And to think that some years ago when I was struggling with my daughters big horse in hand I thought of doing some of that I had no idea it was that bad and had only heard good stuff.... Luckily for me some people on here persauded my daughter that it was not the way to go Since then obviously I have seen the light I have to say he would have killed me if I or anyone else had tried that with him. Why on earth would anyone want to treat their horse like that So mean and angry and cruel. 

I did eventually learn to lead him - in a chifney We came to an understanding and he never ever hurt me and I learned to be more confident without getting cross with him. Incidentally the chifney never had to be "used" it was just that he knew and I knew it was there. Surely it is unnecessary to hit a horse constantly round the face like that - and what was he actually doing wrong? If our big lad had been like that grey I would never even have thought of being wary of him. So very sad. Am waiting for all the disciples to come on and justify this travesty.


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## merrymeasure (7 September 2010)

What an idiot! Couldn't bring myself to watch it all the way through. What is she trying to achieve exactly? What's with the chicken dance at the beginning? Sorry, thats what sprung to mind! The woman is a total waste of space as far as I'm concerned. Poor horse, talk about confusing the poor thing! Don't like Parelli at all. They really have some weird ideas.


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## MrsMozart (7 September 2010)

martlin said:



			One thing is certain, that woman sure as hell needs some lessons in deportment... she looks like an angry chicken.
		
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Lol, I likes the analogy I does (sorry chickens everywhere!).


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## rosie fronfelen (7 September 2010)

tinkandlily said:



			i never said it was doin anything wrong

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WTF? i wasnt referring to your comment at all, this was my own personal view, thank you very much.In fact, my views are the same as yours!


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## TicTac (7 September 2010)

Yes I have watched the video and most of you seem to be missing the point.

Are you happy to lead a horse that pulls, jogs, walks in front of you or drags you every where? What is your ' remedy' for curing this habit or do you just accept it and post on here, " Help, my horse drags me everywhere, what can I do?"

The point of the video is to teach the horse personal space. ie not to walk in front of or over it's handler. It does not mean that it will never want to walk by your side because of this. This is just a lesson. If the horse is clever it will pick it up very quickly and avoid the bumping of the rope clip or flick with the whip and learn not to tread all over you.

Agreed that this method of training is definitely not for every one ( or in the case of this forum, nobody!) However please tell me what is the best way to train a pushy horse not to barge into you or drag you to and from the filed?


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## martlin (7 September 2010)

LOL, I have a Light Sussex that struts around the yard in exactly this manner - she lays nice eggs.
Unfortunately, this is the only thing I have to say about Parelli.


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## MrsMozart (7 September 2010)

TicTac said:



			Yes I have watched the video and most of you seem to be missing the point.

Are you happy to lead a horse that pulls, jogs, walks in front of you or drags you every where? What is your ' remedy' for curing this habit or do you just accept it and post on here, " Help, my horse drags me everywhere, what can I do?"

The point of the video is to teach the horse personal space. ie not to walk in front of or over it's handler. It does not mean that it will never want to walk by your side because of this. This is just a lesson. If the horse is clever it will pick it up very quickly and avoid the bumping of the rope clip or flick with the whip and learn not to tread all over you.

Agreed that this method of training is definitely not for every one ( or in the case of this forum, nobody!) However please tell me what is the best way to train a pushy horse not to barge into you or drag you to and from the filed?
		
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There are ways and ways to do things. I have used 'Parelli' methods with some seriously bargy horses, but none of them needed hitting in the face with a piece of metal. They learnt to back up and back away and to come to me without me needing (or wanting) to cause them harm or pain. Having been someone who was interested in the Parelli way (being new back into horses then), I have become totally disenchanted with the whole lot of them and disengaged accordingly.


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## rosie fronfelen (7 September 2010)

TicTac said:



			Yes I have watched the video and most of you seem to be missing the point.

Are you happy to lead a horse that pulls, jogs, walks in front of you or drags you every where? What is your ' remedy' for curing this habit or do you just accept it and post on here, " Help, my horse drags me everywhere, what can I do?"

The point of the video is to teach the horse personal space. ie not to walk in front of or over it's handler. It does not mean that it will never want to walk by your side because of this. This is just a lesson. If the horse is clever it will pick it up very quickly and avoid the bumping of the rope clip or flick with the whip and learn not to tread all over you.

Agreed that this method of training is definitely not for every one ( or in the case of this forum, nobody!) However please tell me what is the best way to train a pushy horse not to barge into you or drag you to and from the filed?
		
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the horse was doing fine, it does not take alot to get a horse such as that to lead nicely,without all this rope business and flicking everywhere- the woman is crap, and so is the whole Parelli thing- and to think so many people arelearning this nonsense,what is wrong with traditional  breaking in and schooling on?


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## misst (7 September 2010)

TicTac said:



			Yes I have watched the video and most of you seem to be missing the point.

Are you happy to lead a horse that pulls, jogs, walks in front of you or drags you every where? What is your ' remedy' for curing this habit or do you just accept it and post on here, " Help, my horse drags me everywhere, what can I do?"

The point of the video is to teach the horse personal space. ie not to walk in front of or over it's handler. It does not mean that it will never want to walk by your side because of this. This is just a lesson. If the horse is clever it will pick it up very quickly and avoid the bumping of the rope clip or flick with the whip and learn not to tread all over you.

Agreed that this method of training is definitely not for every one ( or in the case of this forum, nobody!) However please tell me what is the best way to train a pushy horse not to barge into you or drag you to and from the filed?
		
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Well as I said in my post above I used a chifney - which I never had to pull on - he knew when it was in and when it wasn't and behaved beautifully. I also learned to just be more confident. This was a horse who used to rear and barge and pull people to and from the field. He just knew he had some sort of bit in his mouth and respected it. He was 16.2 and I am well under 5 foot and a big woose. I know not everyone approves of them but I truely believe it was kinder than what I have just witnessed and I genuinely never yanked or pulled on it. He did not need any "lessons" that went on for ages and I believe he was perfectly comfortable.

If it is acceptable to teach a horse to lead in the way LP does - over a prolonged period of minutes, is it also ok to repeatedly beat a horse who refuses a jump or a dressage movement over a similar time? Because that is what is happening in my view. A short sharp lesson is fine but this bullying???


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## tinkandlily (7 September 2010)

rosiefronfelen said:



			WTF? i wasnt referring to your comment at all, this was my own personal view, thank you very much.In fact, my views are the same as yours!
		
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 sorry it was just they way you started.:O


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## rosie fronfelen (7 September 2010)

sorry tink, i shouldn't have pressed the quote button, my mistake.


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## ecarylloh (7 September 2010)

TicTac said:



			Yes I have watched the video and most of you seem to be missing the point.

Are you happy to lead a horse that pulls, jogs, walks in front of you or drags you every where? What is your ' remedy' for curing this habit or do you just accept it and post on here, " Help, my horse drags me everywhere, what can I do?"

The point of the video is to teach the horse personal space. ie not to walk in front of or over it's handler. It does not mean that it will never want to walk by your side because of this. This is just a lesson. If the horse is clever it will pick it up very quickly and avoid the bumping of the rope clip or flick with the whip and learn not to tread all over you.

Agreed that this method of training is definitely not for every one ( or in the case of this forum, nobody!) However please tell me what is the best way to train a pushy horse not to barge into you or drag you to and from the filed?
		
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Maybe through quietness, calmness, confidence and patience?


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## pricklyflower (7 September 2010)

TicTac said:



			Yes I have watched the video and most of you seem to be missing the point.

Are you happy to lead a horse that pulls, jogs, walks in front of you or drags you every where? What is your ' remedy' for curing this habit or do you just accept it and post on here, " Help, my horse drags me everywhere, what can I do?"

The point of the video is to teach the horse personal space. ie not to walk in front of or over it's handler. It does not mean that it will never want to walk by your side because of this. This is just a lesson. If the horse is clever it will pick it up very quickly and avoid the bumping of the rope clip or flick with the whip and learn not to tread all over you.

Agreed that this method of training is definitely not for every one ( or in the case of this forum, nobody!) However please tell me what is the best way to train a pushy horse not to barge into you or drag you to and from the filed?
		
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He got brought in with his bridle and praised for good behaviour. When he invaded my space he got pushed away, when he started jogging he was made to stand still, and asked to walk on again and praised for doing it nicely. Yes every horse is different and people have different methods of training, I understand and respect that.  Mine learnt to walk in from the field calmly and nicely by my side eventually although it was a slow process.  This was a big brute of a HW cob who when I got him didn't respect anyone and he turned out to be very easy to handle with consistent handling.  He certainly wasn't hit in the face with the clip of the leadrein even when he wasn't doing anything wrong.  

I actually didn't see much that the horse was doing that justified the "snap"? Especially at around 10 minutes, it purely looked like the horse wasn't focused on the handler or LP so it was "snapped"? 

Genuine question for you that I would be interested to hear the answer.


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## tinkandlily (7 September 2010)

TicTac said:



			Yes I have watched the video and most of you seem to be missing the point.

Are you happy to lead a horse that pulls, jogs, walks in front of you or drags you every where? What is your ' remedy' for curing this habit or do you just accept it and post on here, " Help, my horse drags me everywhere, what can I do?"

The point of the video is to teach the horse personal space. ie not to walk in front of or over it's handler. It does not mean that it will never want to walk by your side because of this. This is just a lesson. If the horse is clever it will pick it up very quickly and avoid the bumping of the rope clip or flick with the whip and learn not to tread all over you.

Agreed that this method of training is definitely not for every one ( or in the case of this forum, nobody!) However please tell me what is the best way to train a pushy horse not to barge into you or drag you to and from the filed?
		
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What point are we missing? That to move your horse back, you snap the rope and hit it in the face with the clip, yeah wiggle the rope, but doing that hard was uncalled for


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## Dobby (7 September 2010)

Anyone who watches that video and thinks "well, what other way can there possibly be to stop a horse from barging!" is not a very skilled or thoughtful horsewoman.


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## Allover (7 September 2010)

TicTac said:



			Yes I have watched the video and most of you seem to be missing the point.

Are you happy to lead a horse that pulls, jogs, walks in front of you or drags you every where? What is your ' remedy' for curing this habit or do you just accept it and post on here, " Help, my horse drags me everywhere, what can I do?"

The point of the video is to teach the horse personal space. ie not to walk in front of or over it's handler. It does not mean that it will never want to walk by your side because of this. This is just a lesson. If the horse is clever it will pick it up very quickly and avoid the bumping of the rope clip or flick with the whip and learn not to tread all over you.

Agreed that this method of training is definitely not for every one ( or in the case of this forum, nobody!) However please tell me what is the best way to train a pushy horse not to barge into you or drag you to and from the filed?
		
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There are ways and means of training horses and i dont believe any of them should involve smacking the horse repeatedly around the head, especially when the horses energy was no where near as high a LPs, she was over the top in her approach and far too aggressive, which the horse certainly didnt need. Is it correct to confuse the horse into making a mistake (as i sure as hell couldnt see what she was asking it, other than to be head shy) so as you can smack it about to make it "respect" you! And the worst thing about this is it is on her training videos so complete beginners will be thinking this is a correct way forward with their animals. 

The parelli prats are giving Monty a bad name and this is a bloody travesty!


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## Oberon (7 September 2010)

I have no problem with using a reprimand from a slap across the chest when all else has failed with a bargy horse. 

Initially firm, fair, patience is the way to introduce manners.

There is no excuse for hitting a horse (or any living creature) in the face with a metal clip.

End of.


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## LauraWheeler (7 September 2010)

TicTac said:



			Yes I have watched the video and most of you seem to be missing the point.

Are you happy to lead a horse that pulls, jogs, walks in front of you or drags you every where? What is your ' remedy' for curing this habit or do you just accept it and post on here, " Help, my horse drags me everywhere, what can I do?"

The point of the video is to teach the horse personal space. ie not to walk in front of or over it's handler. It does not mean that it will never want to walk by your side because of this. This is just a lesson. If the horse is clever it will pick it up very quickly and avoid the bumping of the rope clip or flick with the whip and learn not to tread all over you.

Agreed that this method of training is definitely not for every one ( or in the case of this forum, nobody!) However please tell me what is the best way to train a pushy horse not to barge into you or drag you to and from the filed?
		
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Well I certanly don't beat it round the head. 
My pony Herbie came from a Parelli home. I bought him for £550 inclu all tack and Rugs. The woman I bought him off had paid £1500 for just him. She had only owned him for 6 months.
When he came to me he was a bargy, bolshy, mean pony. He would bite and kick to get his own way, He would nap, rear, leap, buck and spin. It took over an hour to get one circle of trot on one rein on the lunge (he would spend the rest of the time trying to kick me, lunge at me or tank off. He would not load in a trailer or horsebox. (Now tell me he must have had all those problems when the woman paid so much money for him).
Now 10 months later I have a very different pony. He is happy to see me, I can groom him without getting bittern or kicked infact he grooms me back now, He lunges like a star, Loads in a trailer and horsebox happly ( he even loaded himself the otherday) We hackout in the new forest and he doesn't nap even when we come across wild ponies and I have started to ride him in the school.
I was firm but fair with him he got alot of praise when he did what I wanted him to and he got told when he was wrong. Often a stern "NO" was enough to make him think again then lots and lots of positive re enforcement when he did right. He does get a smack if he is very very naughty. Like when he used to kick I would slap him on the bum or if he bit me I would slap him on the neck. But I have NEVER EVER hit him over the head with a metal clip on a rope. Infact I could probably count on one hand the amount of times I have hit him in the last 10 months, I would need alot of hands to count how many times Linda hits a horse in 10 minuets. Most of the time I found if I used a whip and hit my boots the noise was enough to discorage him from the undesired behavour.
The carrot stick IS a whip. You can give it a fluffy name but you are still whipping the horse. and the wiggle wiggle bump with the rope is simply beating the horse around the head.
Parelli is supposed to be a kinder way to treat your horse a less agressive way. It's not, just because you don't actualy say hit the horse over the head till it does what you want, It's not any different.
I now have a happy pony who loves being around people, his trust in me is growing everyday. But when I see these videos I think about what he used to be like and it makes me so cross when people try to defend this method. Look back at my previous posts you'll see what I do with my ponies. Lucy and Herbie are a true example of what you can achive with a little love and understanding. It doesn't happen over night but you can get there in a much kinder way than Parelli. Some of Parelli's theorys are good (I have studyed it in detail for an equine behavour course I did) But on the whole I don't like it and Herbie is the living proof of the damage it can do.


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## Tinypony (7 September 2010)

Allover said:



			There are ways and means of training horses and i dont believe any of them should involve smacking the horse repeatedly around the head, especially when the horses energy was no where near as high a LPs, she was over the top in her approach and far too aggressive, which the horse certainly didnt need. Is it correct to confuse the horse into making a mistake (as i sure as hell couldnt see what she was asking it, other than to be head shy) so as you can smack it about to make it "respect" you! And the worst thing about this is it is on her training videos so complete beginners will be thinking this is a correct way forward with their animals. 

The parelli prats are giving Monty a bad name and this is a bloody travesty!
		
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What have the "parelli prats" got to do with Monty?  (I presume you mean Monty Roberts).  How can anything they do give him a bad name?


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## typekitty (7 September 2010)

I think it's fair to say that LP is a nutcase. I stopped watching it. Makes me sick. No animal should be slapped around the head or face.


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## galaxy (7 September 2010)

There are many ways to stop a horse from going infront of you and being bargy (although I didn't see a lot of that behaviour here...  not to an extreme anyway!  I just saw a horse excited in his surroundings).  You remain calm at ALL times.  You stop, push the horse back.  Use a pressure halter if necessary, a long rope if it may get away so you don't let go.  But hitting and flapping and blatenty confusing the horse is NOT necessary.  Horse need calm, clear boundaries.

I don't see how people can think that this is "the way"


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## Capriole (7 September 2010)

Tinypony said:



			What have the "parelli prats" got to do with Monty?  (I presume you mean Monty Roberts).  How can anything they do give him a bad name?
		
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because people who dont know the difference often do not differentiate between 'natural horsemanship' and 'parelli' and lump it all together as bad, as a result of these parelli 'issues'


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## TicTac (7 September 2010)

Agreed that all horses are different. My mare never gives me a moments problems when leading my but my grey boy would jog and pull in front if I let him. I have found the best way to train him out of this is with a Dually headcollar. For those of you who use them properly, you will know how it's used.

I am not condoning LP's method of teaching personal space, I just looked at the video with an ' impartial' view.

Incidently I once had a huge TB who was a complete git to lead and even worse in a chifney. I had to make a compromise with him which was never good. I don't think LP's method would have helped but then I'll never know now.

Sometimes I do find this utter hatered that people have for Parelli's methods clouds the overall point of what is trying to be achieved. And before you all jump on me like a ton of bricks. All I am saying is I like to have an open mind. ( and no I do not follow Parelli ) I have seen Polo ponies trained in an awful and far more painful way than a rap on the chin.


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## Allover (7 September 2010)

Tinypony said:



			What have the "parelli prats" got to do with Monty?  (I presume you mean Monty Roberts).  How can anything they do give him a bad name?
		
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Because unfortunately people think they do the same things and they are often clubbed in together in the "natural horsemanship" club. It is only once people start to watch them that they realise they are completely different.


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## charlie76 (7 September 2010)

I am confused, its the horse supposed to walking next to her or behind her?
Not really working for jumper round waist woman though is it- horse is laughing at her!


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## Kenzo (7 September 2010)

I watched a few minutes (but without sound as I'm at work), to be honest I got as far as minute int it before I got started yawning  so I can't really comment on the video properly but judging by past videos or that women, I can draw my conclusions to that of what everyone else is saying.

We have a parelli'ed equine on our yard, level what ever it is, it has the manners of a baboon.

I rest my case.


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## misst (7 September 2010)

TicTac said:



			Agreed that all horses are different. My mare never gives me a moments problems when leading my but my grey boy would jog and pull in front if I let him. I have found the best way to train him out of this is with a Dually headcollar. For those of you who use them properly, you will know how it's used.

I am not condoning LP's method of teaching personal space, I just looked at the video with an ' impartial' view.

Incidently I once had a huge TB who was a complete git to lead and even worse in a chifney. I had to make a compromise with him which was never good. I don't think LP's method would have helped but then I'll never know now.

Sometimes I do find this utter hatered that people have for Parelli's methods clouds the overall point of what is trying to be achieved. And before you all jump on me like a ton of bricks. All I am saying is I like to have an open mind. ( and no I do not follow Parelli ) I have seen Polo ponies trained in an awful and far more painful way than a rap on the chin.
		
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But once again the argument that polo ponies are trained in a worse way does not justify LPs methods. I do not hate anyone but I am shocked and horrified that Parelli is held up in the way it is as a humane and non violent way of training horses. I looked at the video with interest and was just amazed at what I saw. I agree that all horses are different as are all handlers but I know of nothing that excuses LP (or the owner of that poor horse) for their tactics.


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## Spit That Out (7 September 2010)

If there is video evidence of a horse being abused (I'm pretty sure that hitting a pony round the face with stick, metal clip or any other object would/should be classed as abuse) could be reported to some authority of some sort?
How can this kind of practice be licensed or approved by any society?
Surly there must be someone you can complain to? If you saw a child being hit you would report it to NSPCC, Social Services etc so who can you complain to about this animal abuse?
From all the clips dotted around the Internet etc there would be enough to prove that this way of controlling/teaching (used loosely) animals is wrong.


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## tinkandlily (7 September 2010)

I think parelli is used by those with big horses that they are afraid of and think getting them to do circus tricks is going to help them bond with their horse and they can ride it   and go galloping on the beach with no tack  those poor ignorant people.


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## Seahorse (7 September 2010)

ecarylloh said:



			HOW can people pay extortionate amounts of money to learn to do this to their horse? Parelli followers say that non-Parelli people don't understand?

I don't understand.
		
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I don't either, and I don't want to!


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## HappyHorses:) (7 September 2010)

I had to switch off as I couldn't watch that poor horse being treated like that.

How can you condone treating a horse like that? 

LP need some anger management by the looks of things!


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## rosie fronfelen (7 September 2010)

but isn't the percentage of this parelli rubbish taught in America?


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## TicTac (7 September 2010)

misst said:



			But once again the argument that polo ponies are trained in a worse way does not justify LPs methods.
		
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No of course it doesn't but my point is that there are some terrible ways to back and teach horses out there but it always seems to be Parelli that comes into question. All but the roughest of horsemaen claim their methods to be the best and most effective!


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## tinkandlily (7 September 2010)

You know, a girl did this at a show, her pony was being a sod so she did exactly that and got cautioned by the ground staff for abuse!! yet here is someone putting it on tape and selling it.


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## LauraWheeler (7 September 2010)

tinkandlily said:



			I think parelli is used by those with big horses that they are afraid of and think getting them to do circus tricks is going to help them bond with their horse and they can ride it   and go galloping on the beach with no tack  those poor ignorant people.
		
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Or even small ones. Herbie's only 12.2hh.


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## tinkandlily (7 September 2010)

LauraWheeler said:



			Or even small ones. Herbie's only 12.2hh.
		
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Alright then, they belive they can comunicate with their horse/pony with mind power because thats what the poor sods need, they get yanked forward and pushed back, with no indication of where they should be.


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## Seahorse (7 September 2010)

TicTac said:



			Yes I have watched the video and most of you seem to be missing the point.

Are you happy to lead a horse that pulls, jogs, walks in front of you or drags you every where? What is your ' remedy' for curing this habit or do you just accept it and post on here, " Help, my horse drags me everywhere, what can I do?"

The point of the video is to teach the horse personal space. ie not to walk in front of or over it's handler. It does not mean that it will never want to walk by your side because of this. This is just a lesson. If the horse is clever it will pick it up very quickly and avoid the bumping of the rope clip or flick with the whip and learn not to tread all over you.

Agreed that this method of training is definitely not for every one ( or in the case of this forum, nobody!) However please tell me what is the best way to train a pushy horse not to barge into you or drag you to and from the filed?
		
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But that grey arab in the video is not pulling or jogging or dragging anyone anywhere! Well it runs backwards when she starts hitting the clip thing in its face but that's her own doing. I have no problem with discipline if the horse needs it but that poor innocent creature wasn't doing anything wrong


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## duggan (7 September 2010)

Watched it until LP decided the horse deserved a rap on the nose with her stick. For, well, i'm not entirely sure what for, so guess the horse didn't either. I'm a firm believer in cause and affect, and trying hard to get the horse to understand by listening to it. But all the skipping lessons i've seen just make me shake my head in dismay that people are still being sucked in to the whole parelli thing. Monty can be harsh, as any horse handler needs to be at times. But what i've seen from the skipping rope brigade just appalls me. Very sad.


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## Ignition (7 September 2010)

That's ridiculous. Monty Roberts I get - it's all tied up in the way horses behave with eachother, fine. However what they do is nothing of the sort, it's just bullying


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## Kenzo (7 September 2010)

Well I'll be dammed, all this years I've always thought it rather nice and correct for a horse to walk happily at your side, without pulling lagging behind, kinda like a partnership. 

Someone needs to tell this woman there is no i in team.


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## Roasted Chestnuts (7 September 2010)

They just keep digging and digging and I think they need to sack their publicist as they clearly dont have a clue!!

Do these people know the meaning of the words Damage Limitation???

Honestly do they think we are all brainwashed enough to fall for skelping a horse in the face with a metal clip????

They just keep proving to me that there is nothing NATURAL about NH. I have renamed it NASTY HORSEMANSHIP.

Nikki xxx


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## tinkandlily (7 September 2010)

I can see this becoming another hot topic, like the other parelli one, i don't want to switch off and miss it, but sadly i will have to soon.


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## Spit That Out (7 September 2010)

*Originally Posted by TicTac View Post

However please tell me what is the best way to train a pushy horse not to barge into you or drag you to and from the filed?*

Oh dear...There are many ways to stop a horse without resulting to smacking a horse around the head with a stick, slapping it around the head with a rope and metal clip.
Your horse might stop barging you out of the way but that's because they are now scared of you and probably head shy form all the whacking.

How did/do people stop their horses from barging without the aid of an orange stick, a large metal buckle and a rope...I'm surprised she didn't have a copy of her latest book in her hand and their DVD in her back pocket to both hit the pony with and then sell to the MUPPET of the owner!!!


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## Sarah Sum1 (7 September 2010)

TicTac said:



			Yes I have watched the video and most of you seem to be missing the point.

Are you happy to lead a horse that pulls, jogs, walks in front of you or drags you every where? What is your ' remedy' for curing this habit or do you just accept it and post on here, " Help, my horse drags me everywhere, what can I do?"

The point of the video is to teach the horse personal space. ie not to walk in front of or over it's handler. It does not mean that it will never want to walk by your side because of this. This is just a lesson. If the horse is clever it will pick it up very quickly and avoid the bumping of the rope clip or flick with the whip and learn not to tread all over you.

Agreed that this method of training is definitely not for every one ( or in the case of this forum, nobody!) However please tell me what is the best way to train a pushy horse not to barge into you or drag you to and from the filed?
		
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There are many ways in which to teach a horse to respect your space. Many of which do not involve any kind of hitting ariund the head area which IMO is insane. 
I had a very bulshy horse, who would try to charge past me, push into me etc. He soon learnt not to, because every single time he did, and I mean every two three steps!  I would stop him and push him back two steps. Took us forever to get anywhere, but he soon learnt that I wasn't accepting him pushing past me and he stopped. Not once did I have to hit him. Called a ****** a few times but am hoping he didn't understand 

ETA HAving had a head shy pony, it is not a good idea to be hitting a horse in the face. It IMO is also really disrespectful when there are plenty other methods to gat the same result. May take longer because fear isn't involved, but patience is everything.


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## RuthnMeg (7 September 2010)

Shocking. Thats not horsemanship, thats not proffessionalism (spelling big time?) and no way should THAT be advertised as 'the way to do it'! 
Parelli is losing ground and fast.


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## Ignition (7 September 2010)

The horse was leading perfectly?


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## keanmu (7 September 2010)

Hummmm, I certainly don't want my (or any) horse to be affraid of getting close to me. How can you ever build up a relationship with a horse that everytime it comes near you it gets shoved away. Stupid cow, she makes me so angry! I didn't watch it all but what I did see didn't make any sense.

If it EVER becomes necessary to hit a horse then do we really need a perfected tecnique? Surely a quick flick with a schooling whip is sufficiant.


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## MiJodsR2BlinkinTite (7 September 2010)

Mmmm, I watched it for a while. Am not trying to defend her or her method here, BUT maybe this would be something which one could use best in a situation for instance where you had a really bargy horse which kept coming into your "space" as she puts it, or won't lead, or has some other vice which would merit this kind of treatment.

As I saw it, this horse was a real darling, he wanted to please his handlers and was getting punished for it. 

The other thing that worried me was that neither of them were wearing any protective equipment, i.e. hat, suitable footwear, gloves, or whatever. They were not actually looking at the horse either, they were walking in front, so would have no idea what was going on behind them. It would have served them both right if this horse had reared up or done something else drastic - and they wouldn't have known anything about it.

I felt this was totally inappropriate to the horse; he'll end up totally confused by this and won't know where he stands anymore.

Tho' I wonder perhaps if this way of training would be more appropriate to the Western style of riding - where there is more of a necessity to turn a tight circle like this? Any Western riders out there? Perhaps this is the way its done? 

That poor horse, I felt so sorry for him, and it seemed to go on for far too long. Not impressed.


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## SuperSonicMare (7 September 2010)

I wouldn't let her near any of my horses with a 10 foot carrot stick!!! The Parellis dont seem to understand horses at all  The more of these videos I see, the more I dislike everything they stand for. There is nothing "natural" about 99% of their training methods!


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## siennamum (7 September 2010)

TicTac, to say that being disgusted with LP's treatment of the horse is unfair in some way to Parelli is just bizarre. The video is horrible to watch and given that the horse is being smacked on the jaw by a metal clip repeatedly, I think it's getting to the point where you could call a welfare organisation.

IF you saw someone with a horse in a stable and they were hitting it hard and repeatedly with the metal clip on the end of a leadrope, wouldn't you report it. How is this any different?

I imagine the horse was really sore and marked after this experience. It's completely bizarre.

There are numerous ways you could get a bargy or rude horse to respect your space.
Regarding the horse in question, LP could stop hitting it with the carrot stick whenever it turns a corner, that is making it shoot forwards. The horse is very respectful and sweet at the start of the video, for a moment I thought,  "Oh look, the parelli's have actually trained that little horse well, it likes being with it's owner and is walking really sweetly with her." 

What a silly mistake, it was being dangerous at that point - apparently.


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## Hollyberry (7 September 2010)

I'm sorry, I really did laugh at LP, the woman is a complete looney, I am speechless after watching that video.  I know it has all been said but why, oh why do people believe in such rubbish.  I can't bear the thought of all those poor horses being subjected to all that c...p.  I am amazed she hasn't been trampled, either by a p....d off horse or its owner!!  She and Pat are well suited, nasty pieces of work who shouldn't be allowed to teach this sort of stuff.


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## SirenaXVI (7 September 2010)

TicTac said:



			Yes I have watched the video and most of you seem to be missing the point.

Are you happy to lead a horse that pulls, jogs, walks in front of you or drags you every where? What is your ' remedy' for curing this habit or do you just accept it and post on here, " Help, my horse drags me everywhere, what can I do?"

The point of the video is to teach the horse personal space. ie not to walk in front of or over it's handler. It does not mean that it will never want to walk by your side because of this. This is just a lesson. If the horse is clever it will pick it up very quickly and avoid the bumping of the rope clip or flick with the whip and learn not to tread all over you.

Agreed that this method of training is definitely not for every one ( or in the case of this forum, nobody!) However please tell me what is the best way to train a pushy horse not to barge into you or drag you to and from the filed?
		
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Hmmm there are MUCH better ways to teach a horse to respect your space, there is absolutely no need to use such an abusive and aggressive method


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## milesjess (7 September 2010)

I really used to love watching Parelli and thought it was amazing to watch. 

This is the second video I've seen which has made me think twice about the techniques they use. Surely using this method on your horse would make problems worse... More likely to not trust you, reluctant to lead, head shy??

Why on earth someone would want to use that 'snap' technique on any horse is beyond me... But everyone is different I guess


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## irishdraft (7 September 2010)

Having seen some of linda parelliis videos on this forum I am agast that this way of training if you can call it that has a following, not that i know anyone who does, the woman has serious anger management problems.


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## SirenaXVI (7 September 2010)

HappyHorses:) said:



			LP need some anger management by the looks of things!
		
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I reckon she needs therapy to help her get over her fear of horses


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## Tinypony (7 September 2010)

Correct me if I'm wrong, Parelli students, but isn't this more from the same Level 1 instructional DVD set that has had bits ripped and publicised before?  Is this from the same set that showed Linda working with the one-eyed horse?
Oh just to answer an earlier question - Parelli is supposed to apply to all horses and all styles of riding.  It's not just about western.  Some western riders would say it hasn't got much to do with western riding at all.


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## classiclady (7 September 2010)

I am sorry but what the hell is the horse doing wrong to be treated so badly it isn't being led correctly at one point it nearly steps on the rope because the owner isn't paying attention and the rope is to long. I used to sit on the fence with discussions on Parelli but not now it is barbaric and any one who practices it I will happily practice this so called horsemanship on them see how long they can stand being whacked in the head.


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## Echo Bravo (7 September 2010)

I'm not going there. The Parelli's are a money making machine, you give it, they spend it. Did see a promotional video of theirs a couple of years back and if I wanted to learn more had to send £xxx amount of money. A friend who had spent loads of money on it for her horses, said she'd show me on my mare took me months to get my mare's trust back and she did say at the time, she was going to fork out to be taught how to teach the Parelli method, so she'd make a living from it. Haven't seen her since and I've heard on the grapevine, she gave up riding because her horse started bolting out on hacks???


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## Meowy Catkin (7 September 2010)

Sounds familiar EchoBravo, I've known a few that tried Parelli and without exception they rode less, their confidence around horses dropped and their prieviously good mannered horses, developed ground and/or ridden problems.


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## Teddybully (7 September 2010)

I truly believe this woman has mental health issues.  What on earth was that horse doing that was wrong.

'See how safe I am when he's so far away from me' I think one day will be her last words.

ETA It is just not normal and so uncomfortable to watch and hear her delight when a horse is being hurt.


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## Sarah Sum1 (7 September 2010)

Teddybully said:



			I truly believe this woman has mental health issues.  What on earth was that horse doing that was wrong.

'See how close I am when he's so far away from me' I think one day will be her last words.
		
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Haha, I agree


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## rosie fronfelen (7 September 2010)

Echo Bravo said:



			I'm not going there. The Parelli's are a money making machine, you give it, they spend it. Did see a promotional video of theirs a couple of years back and if I wanted to learn more had to send £xxx amount of money. A friend who had spent loads of money on it for her horses, said she'd show me on my mare took me months to get my mare's trust back and she did say at the time, she was going to fork out to be taught how to teach the Parelli method, so she'd make a living from it. Haven't seen her since and I've heard on the grapevine, she gave up riding because her horse started bolting out on hacks???

Click to expand...

EB, i think alot of people, especially youngsters who haven't trained or had alot of experience of breaking in, schooling, stable management etc. think this the easy, alternate way of getting on with their horses/ponies which in my mind is so wrong- i totally disagree with Parelli, Monty and any other form of Natural Horsemanship- i am all for the old fashioned ways of taking time,schooling,getting to know the horse etc, but i have no doubts that alot of forum users will disagree!


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## Sarah Sum1 (7 September 2010)

I don't mind old Monty, as I have seen a lot of his shows (only on t.v) and he never seems to use violence, in fact I think he say's there is no place for violence around horses. 

He is patient with them and they do 'come around'

Linda Parrelli and her clan on the other hand!


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## sabCZa (7 September 2010)

rosiefronfelen said:



			EB, i think alot of people, especially youngsters who haven't trained or had alot of experience of breaking in, schooling, stable management etc. think this the easy, alternate way of getting on with their horses/ponies which in my mind is so wrong- i totally disagree with Parelli, Monty and any other form of Natural Horsemanship- i am all for the old fashioned ways of taking time,schooling,getting to know the horse etc, but i have no doubts that alot of forum users will disagree!
		
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I haven't had much experience of anything to do with horses, only been riding for a year or so and don't have a lot of opportunity to 'hang around' the yard (not for a lack of want but I'm just a punter, pay, ride and leave sort, and the yard people don't like us being around much), and I've come to this forum to learn - but I think it is just common sense that what that woman's doing is plain wrong! On many levels - her lack of understanding of any basics of learning, her 'issues'... Anyway, hello everybody, I'm new here


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## JadeWisc (7 September 2010)

Oh Jesus C I watched a few minutes of this and do not see why people are so flipped out.   It looks to me like they are using their method of teaching a horse to stay out of their personal space by shaking the snap to get the horses attention.....   NOT hitting the horse.   I cannot say I am a follower but their methods are obviously working for some people or they would hardly be as followed as they are. I have seen entire barns full of these people and no animal was harmed as fas as I could see.  Just a lot of happy campers playing ball with their horses in groups that I refrained from joining.   I say get off of the negative obsession with these people and get on with your own methods. I have witnessed abuse and I hardly classify this as abuse.  If you do not want to use their methods then don't   but save your pity for horses who really need it if you want to call the abuse card


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## MerrySherryRider (7 September 2010)

Teddybully said:



			I truly believe this woman has mental health issues.  What on earth was that horse doing that was wrong.

'See how safe I am when he's so far away from me' I think one day will be her last words.

ETA It is just not normal and so uncomfortable to watch and hear her delight when a horse is being hurt.
		
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I think you're absolutely right. Each time she or the owner inflicted pain on the horse she laughed. Sadistic or what ?
 Hope the day one p****d off horse speaks for all the countless horses she has 'trained', there is video footage of that too.


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## paisley (7 September 2010)

Parelli  isn&#8217;t for me, but I never had any gripes about it until the more &#8216;dedicated&#8217; followers refused to admit that the system is just as bad as any training method when applied poorly- like here.

I absolutely will not accept the excuses of &#8216;you don&#8217;t understand what we&#8217;re doing&#8217;.  Rubbish, if you have a problem horse or producing a horse from scratch it should be very simple what you want them to do. You then praise this behaviour you want, not continue whacking it round the head.

Parellin is based heavily on negative re-enforcement, such as the release of pressure. Nothing wrong with that, horses go, stop, turn, are ridden and lunged using this. 

But please don&#8217;t tell me it&#8217;s the only way to treat a horse and if you don&#8217;t use Parelli, you are an ignorant heathen. Because when I see things like this, I'm more inclined to  think some Parelli followers are utter hypocrites


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## siennamum (7 September 2010)

JadeWisc said:



			Oh Jesus C I watched a few minutes of this and do not see why people are so flipped out.   It looks to me like they are using their method of teaching a horse to stay out of their personal space by shaking the snap to get the horses attention.....   NOT hitting the horse.   I cannot say I am a follower but their methods are obviously working for some people or they would hardly be as followed as they are. I have seen entire barns full of these people and no animal was harmed as fas as I could see.  Just a lot of happy campers playing ball with their horses in groups that I refrained from joining.   I say get off of the negative obsession with these people and get on with your own methods. I have witnessed abuse and I hardly classify this as abuse.  If you do not want to use their methods then don't   but save your pity for horses who really need it if you want to call the abuse card
		
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She is quite clear about hitting the horse with metal clip. Pretty painful I would have said.


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## milesjess (7 September 2010)

JadeWisc said:



			It looks to me like they are using their method of teaching a horse to stay out of their personal space by shaking the snap to get the horses attention.....   NOT hitting the horse.
		
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If you watch further on in the video she appears to clearly give him a sharp, hit on the nose... And by his reaction it's either hurt him or shocked him, if not both.


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## Ranyhyn (7 September 2010)

What an absolute tool.


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## JadeWisc (7 September 2010)

I am cranky today and just keep coming up with smart alec responses that are counter productive so I will close my activity on here for now by suggesting that you avoid this method for you and your horses if you find it so upsetting.

and.... if you truly suspect abuse here then send the video evidence to somone who will investigate and can do something about it (although I suspect it will not get anyone far)

I guess this Parelli thing has just been done to death on here and I am suprised people can keep coming up with new things to flip out about in regards to them,  WHY these threads STILL go pages long, and why anyone bothers.   I guess that makes me a hypocrite so I better go!


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## MrsMozart (7 September 2010)

JadeWisc said:



			Oh Jesus C I watched a few minutes of this and do not see why people are so flipped out.   It looks to me like they are using their method of teaching a horse to stay out of their personal space by shaking the snap to get the horses attention.....   NOT hitting the horse.   I cannot say I am a follower but their methods are obviously working for some people or they would hardly be as followed as they are. I have seen entire barns full of these people and no animal was harmed as fas as I could see.  Just a lot of happy campers playing ball with their horses in groups that I refrained from joining.   I say get off of the negative obsession with these people and get on with your own methods. I have witnessed abuse and I hardly classify this as abuse.  If you do not want to use their methods then don't   but save your pity for horses who really need it if you want to call the abuse card
		
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As I've said in the past, I've dabbled in the Parelli ways, but now prefer other methods. The issue here is that there is a large metal clip (a heavy one) on the end of the rope; it's that which is being used to hit the horse under the jaw (that's the 'snap').

Right, off to wander round elsewhere and leave this one to run its course.


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## HashRouge (7 September 2010)

I just typed out a big reply to this thread and then my internet died and I lost it all. But basically I concluded that Linda Parelli is mental. And also quite possibly sadistic.


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## sjmcc (7 September 2010)

amymay said:



			God I wish she and her stupid sun visor would just vanish.

Really, she is an affront to humanity!
		
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 or her and her evil stupid would vanish husband . never thought much of them 2 ideots was only a matter of time for the true d ........ds they are


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## vicky86 (7 September 2010)

Loony!!! I mean it doesn't take a genius to work out that smacking a horse in the face will make them back off you - what lesson is there in that?? If it was a 101 in making your horse head shy then yep fair point I can see her angle.

LP quote "Bounce that clip of him - i mean hard - he's not listening - harder!" Physco!

God a really dislike Parelli - it makes me mad!!!!!


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## FestiveBoomBoom (7 September 2010)

She really is an evil old bint! Do they actually have followers over here or is it really an American thing? I just can't believe anyone would buy into this ****


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## Fairynuff (7 September 2010)

JadeWisc said:



			I am cranky today and just keep coming up with smart alec responses that are counter productive so I will close my activity on here for now by suggesting that you avoid this method for you and your horses if you find it so upsetting.

and.... if you truly suspect abuse here then send the video evidence to somone who will investigate and can do something about it (although I suspect it will not get anyone far)

I guess this Parelli thing has just been done to death on here and I am suprised people can keep coming up with new things to flip out about in regards to them,  WHY these threads STILL go pages long, and why anyone bothers.   I guess that makes me a hypocrite so I better go!
		
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You go girl!


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## AengusOg (7 September 2010)

FattyBoomBoom said:



			She really is an evil old bint! Do they actually have followers over here or is it really an American thing? I just can't believe anyone would buy into this ****
		
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Unfortunately, there are many in the UK who adore Pat and Linda Parelli and their Natural Horsemanshit. Cults are not unique to the USA.

I detest PNH, and I can't find words any more to describe how I feel about the two numpties who spread that **** around. I have spent many hours in debate with PNH followers, on several forums and in person, and I've come to the conclusion that they are aliens who can speak to us, but they cannot hear what we say to them.

Please, please avoid them at all costs lest you be be damaged. Don't look at them, don't listen to them, and don't let them near your horses...see no Parelli, hear no Parelli, speak no Parelli...save yourselves.


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## china (7 September 2010)

iv not read all the replies as there is quiet a few pages to trawl through but i think its disgusting. i thought they used cable ties on the headcollars so any pressure applied made it snap? ovbiously not!


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## Laafet (7 September 2010)

QR This video is horrific
Firstly telling people to this much force it just immoral, when the girl with the sweater round her middle was being ineffective and LP took over abused the horse and then got her to do the same I saw little 'education' going on. If she couldn't do the technique then she should have practiced on an inanimate object first rather than repeated hit her horse until she got it right at which point the horse probably didn't know what it was being smacked for. Not that anyone should hit a horse like this. I am preparing yearlings for the sales (racehorses) and we have one very rude bitey colt who will lash out with his front feet, I used my Dually on him to gain some respect. 
Also at no point did LP praise the horse in the video, she even said 'look smug' when they had got the horse to do something.


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## JJtheJetPlane (7 September 2010)

I watched the first few mins and then turned it off. This woman is mental and as far as i can see is having a serious power trip. There is no way i would let her anywhere near any of my horses .


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## Spit That Out (7 September 2010)

For those people who have made comments like "i haven't watched the whole video" and then make statements like "I don't know what all the fuss is about" and "I don't know why people are getting upset as she doesn't hit the pony" maybe should watch the whole thing and then make their comments, then maybe you will understand why people are getting so upset.
The pony clearly gets a smack on the nose with a stick, the muppet of an owner then stands there for a couple of minutes repeatability wiggling violently the rope which continually hits the ponies head with a metal clip. When the idiot owner can't get the pony to take a step backwards LP steps in and very sharply and violently has a go to show how to really abuse your horse and make them headshy.
The pony isn't even doing anything wrong, surly the horse needs to make a mistake and then corrected otherwise it won't know why your smacking it around the head...not that smacking it round the head is an acceptable method of training.
People like LP shouldn't be allowed near horses and i can't believe there are ignorant people out there that buy in to the quick fix method and follow their money making cult.

Watch the whole thing before you make comments


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## Spudlet (7 September 2010)

I don't understand what that session was meant to achieve, given that the horse seemed to be behaving fairly well under the cicrcumstances...? Mind you, followers of Parelli would no doubt say that is because I am too foolish to see what the horse is doing wrong and maybe pray for me and my enlightenment

I don't think all Parelli is the work of the devil, I'm sure that some people get something out of it, but I just don't get it.

I also hated to see the horse slopping about on the end of a long line like that - asking for an accident.

I'd be interested in knowing more about the horse and its owner, and whether it has displayed dangerous behaviour at home? LP was talking as though the horse was dangerous, but its behaviour seemed at odds with this? The owner certainly seemed quite tense around it though. Not that slapping it with a leadrope clip seems likely to help to me. Surely it's generally safer to be closer to a horse rather than far away like that.

I find it all a bit wierd tbh.


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## Gingerwitch (7 September 2010)

Sorry but which one was the dumb animal in this clip?


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## Eccles (7 September 2010)

QR - what i genuinely don't understand about this "parelli" method and the very special Linda is why on earth doesn't someone step in and stop her?!  She is clearly a complete lunatic.  Honestly, if anyone else had posted a video like this the RSPCA would be round in a flash, but because its under the guise of "Parelli" somehow it's above reproach. Honestly, I just don't understand.  Can someone please explain what i'm missing?!  Correcting a so-called bargy horse, or any horse that doesnt behave how we want is called "horsemanship" not "parelli."


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## lar (7 September 2010)

I haven't watched the whole thing but I gather things deteriorate from their already low point?

I agree that poor horse was doing NOTHING wrong and did not deserve the treatment it was getting.

In another place I have been following the experience of someone who has been undertaking some sort of high level intensive Parelli course and the parallels between what she has been experiencing and the induction methods of cults are quite astounding - right down to the sleep deprivation, the hard physical work, the break them down and then show the "leader" as the answer to all their problems and not to communicate with anyone other than fellow cult members


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## MrsElle (7 September 2010)

I really don't know how LP gets away with this stuff and I really can't understand why she feels the need to use these abusive agressive methods to get results that can be gained in much gentler kinder ways.

Blue was sod when I got him 14 months ago.  Bargy, in your face, he bit, was no respecter of space at all he was quite frankly a nuisance.  Today he is a different pony, respectful and gentle.  How did I achieve this?  Well not by smacking him round the head with a clip thats for sure.   To be honest I'm not quite sure how we got to where we are at now, but being fair and firm has worked wonders.

LP is a complete t w a t.


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## Echo Bravo (7 September 2010)

Good one Gingerwitch


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## aro (7 September 2010)

This video annoys me so much.  The horse wasn't doing anything wrong and appeared totally confused.  Why does she feel the need to inflict pain on horses and market it as a good way of doing things.  I really can't understand how people actually buy into their methods, surely they can see this isn't good horsemanship.  It sickens me as to me its just a cruel money making gimick.


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## Spudlet (7 September 2010)

Eccles said:



			QR - what i genuinely don't understand about this "parelli" method and the very special Linda is why on earth doesn't someone step in and stop her?!  She is clearly a complete lunatic.  Honestly, if anyone else had posted a video like this the RSPCA would be round in a flash, but because its under the guise of "Parelli" somehow it's above reproach. Honestly, I just don't understand.  Can someone please explain what i'm missing?!  Correcting a so-called bargy horse, or any horse that doesnt behave how we want is called "horsemanship" not "parelli."
		
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I think it's a video from America? So not much the RSPCA etc could do, in fairness to them.

TBH, I don't think that this is dreadful abuse: I don't like it and I don't think it's effective, but compared to many things that go on it is fairly small beer, which is a very sad reflection on what goes on, but it is true. Of course that doesn't make it right, but it's low down the scale compared to many things that happen.

I totally agree that a bargey horse needs some common sense applying rather than a leadrope clip!


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## kirstyl (7 September 2010)

Teddybully said:



			I truly believe this woman has mental health issues.  What on earth was that horse doing that was wrong.

'See how safe I am when he's so far away from me' I think one day will be her last words.

ETA It is just not normal and so uncomfortable to watch and hear her delight when a horse is being hurt.
		
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Not sure about the mental health issues, but she really seems to delight in hitting the horse hard and making him frightened.  Not content with that, she then teaches the owner to do exactly the same thing.  The owner obviously thinks that LP can do no wrong.  Absolutely horrific.  I want my horse to be respectful of me, but I also want him to enjoy my company and not be terrified of every move I make.  This horse didn't know what it was supposed to do because she clonked it for everything!


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## Golf Girl (7 September 2010)

Oh dear. I guess that now their pathetic little 'haters' page on Facebook has been closed down, they had to find somewhere that they could post their outdated, taken out of context video clips and bitch amongst themselves. Same old names, same old pack drill, same old same old *yawn* ....


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## CLT (7 September 2010)

Think I feel sorry for the poor little pony AND his poor owner.   Both of them seem very sweet and the owner seems to me to have a lovely quiet and soft way about her. I loved LP's demand that the owner 'walk with purpose' (the owner looked as if she liked to meander and her pony looked like he/she liked to meander too!).

LP looked to me like she should tone the 'purpose' down. Scary walking, weird rope swinging and some very aggressive body language with a little pony who didn't seem to be problematic at all until he was wallopped with the stick and socked with the rope.


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## Spudlet (7 September 2010)

Golf Girl said:



			Oh dear. I guess that now their pathetic little 'haters' page on Facebook has been closed down, they had to find somewhere that they could post their outdated, taken out of context video clips and bitch amongst themselves. Same old names, same old pack drill, same old same old *yawn* ....
		
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Go on then - explain it! 

What was the horse doing to warrant being slapped in the head

What was the aim of the session

What had been achieved by the end of the session

Why were basic safety measures, like ensuring the lead rope was not allowed to drag, therefore becoming a trip hazard not taken

What did the owner learn

What was the viewer of the DVD meant to learn

I am curious to know.


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## Echo Bravo (7 September 2010)

That a little off golf girl


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## Golf Girl (7 September 2010)

Echo Bravo said:



			That a little off golf girl
		
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Em no, it's this thread that's (more than) a little off Echo Bravo ....


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## Sarah Sum1 (7 September 2010)

Yes I want know too!

All that video shows is how to get a head shy, confused, frightened horse. Whilst making yourself look like a ***K flinging a leadrope at a poor horses face. Where did we take it out of context? There are no clear instructions to the horse, if he moves he gets hit, if he stops he gets hit, if he's too close, too far, too fast all ends up with same result. Insane way to try and gain respect from an animal.


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## Roasted Chestnuts (7 September 2010)

I am sorry but for those defending this atrocity of soo called horsemanship whats the difference from giving the horse a sharp smack on the chest from a stick to stop barging since thats not allowed and whacking a piece of metal off your horses head??

Hmmm let me see hit fleshy area with stick make a noise or hit horse on the head and possibly take an eye out with the clip or even at the least cause bleeding???

I mean am i missing something??? Am i not high enough up the parellis @sses to understand??? I am sorry but they called traditional horsemanship brutal but these guys have led people in with the sugar coating and now the real training is coming out. If this is what they do openly god help the poor horses they are treating behind closed doors.

I dont know how ANYONE can defend this, its like trying to defend those who beat up dogs or children IMV

Nikki


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## Sarah Sum1 (7 September 2010)

Golf Girl said:



			Em no, it's this thread that's (more than) a little off Echo Bravo ....
		
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Explain then!

ANother brainwashed LP fan! With a head shy confused horse no doubt.


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## Spudlet (7 September 2010)

Golf Girl said:



			Em no, it's this thread that's (more than) a little off Echo Bravo ....
		
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Please could you try to explain what is going in as per my questions?


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## Lippyx (7 September 2010)

I just can't stand listening to her! Have you ever noticed the tone in her voice, its like she really wants to hurt the horse, and when her pupils get it wrong, she snatches the "tools" and shows them how its done!! The pupils don't seem to mind though... as though they are brain washed?

Any one seen the "The Horse Apprentice" thats on H&CTV at the mo? OMG! I refuse to watch it! It is like a cult!! All happy families together, being spiteful to the horses!!


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## Munchkin (7 September 2010)

The haters group is alive and well, thanks


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## Spudlet (7 September 2010)

Munchkin said:



			The haters group is alive and well, thanks 

Click to expand...

I still haven't had my explanation yet though

I would genuinely like to know what the rationale behind that film was, and what someone more knowledgeable about these methods makes of it.


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## Honey Bee♥ (7 September 2010)

i cant believe she just did that! what a rat! that just goes against all they stand for!! and after that last incident, do they really think they should be doing this to win the fans back- who were fans simply because they believed all the work which was done was purely for the benifit of the horse? well i for one and going to stop parelli work on my mare. and im also going to burn their dvds. this is just sick


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## Golf Girl (7 September 2010)

sarahsum1 said:



			Explain then!

ANother brainwashed LP fan! With a head shy confused horse no doubt.
		
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Don't you DARE presume to judge me, you don't know me or anything about me.


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## Munchkin (7 September 2010)

Good luck with that, Spudlet. The only explanation you'll get is that you're too stupid to understand.


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## Spudlet (7 September 2010)

Munchkin said:



			Good luck with that, Spudlet. The only explanation you'll get is that you're too stupid to understand.
		
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Am used to that

But seriously, Golf Girl. Please can you explain to me? Please?

Or anyone?


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## Roasted Chestnuts (7 September 2010)

Golf Girl said:



			Don't you DARE presume to judge me, you don't know me or anything about me.
		
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We are asking for explanations to why this ISNT a disgrace in your eyes.

If you explain it then maybe people wont judge you or your horse. All we can see is a horse being skelped wiht the metal clip just to make it back up when i can think of a dozen things off hand that i would do before even remotely considering hitting a horse in the face with stainless steel.

Nikki


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## Sarah Sum1 (7 September 2010)

Golf Girl said:



			Don't you DARE presume to judge me, you don't know me or anything about me.
		
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Erm didn't YOU judge us? 

I'll do what I darn well like. I know you are obviously rude. You won't offer an explanation as to why that video is deemed okay in your eyes? There is no explanation because it's cruelty. Pure and simple.


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## Dolcé (7 September 2010)

LauraWheeler said:



			I've heard her say that alot. I always think "HA HA Linda come and try that with Horrid, He'll launch himself at you and stamp on you with both front feet" 
I'd never let her near him realy, She'd undo 8 months work in 8 seconds with the way she handles horses 

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Do you know Laura, I thought the same thing about Eeyore for a second, and then realised that he would act in exactly the same way as the poor arab and would end up reacting the way she wanted him to, too scared to walk anywhere near her.  I am actually quite upset by that and NOBODY can say anything that would, for one second, make me believe that behaviour can lead to a positive out come for the horse!  This is only the second video I have seen of 'that woman' and I hate her with a passion.  For a woman who has made a bloody fortune out of horses it would appear she has no respect, and certainly no affection, towards them.  I have to be honest and say that this video in particular has turned me completely against anything Parelli and that woman!


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## Sarah Sum1 (7 September 2010)

You get some random coming on here calling us haters and bitches, yet she can offer no explanation. Say's it all!

Linda is that you?


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## lauraanddolly (7 September 2010)

This is just one video in a long line of parelli rubbish I have seen, rubbish is the best word I can find to describe it - I'm sure LP didn't start off as a horse abuser but the methods she uses and teaches now are no more than that - ABUSE.  
 What I would like to know is how these methods are supposed to work!   
 I remember the Catwalk thread and I'm sure it was mentioned on there(by a parelli follower) that the techniques used on Catwalk were advanced that is why us normal(I make no apologies for the use of this word) horse owners didn't understand the lesson we were seeing.  
 Well if this video is from a level one dvd then Parelli must be a very advanced horse training experience because I don't understand what is supposed to be being taught here? (I can guess - and I wouldn't be doing that to correct the horse, as i'm sure lead properly the horse would be fine) 
 I've been around horses for more than half of my life, I have trained on yards and studied at a college, worked on yards - had sole charge in some cases, but I don't understand a parelli level one dvd ?
 Something is wrong there - and I know its not me! 

 Normally I don't post on these threads, I'm not a Parelli follower and I never will be, these methods will never be used on my horse or any other horse I have involvement with as i see no value in them.


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## amandaco2 (7 September 2010)

shes an idiot and a bully


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## Dolcé (7 September 2010)

rosiefronfelen said:



			but isn't the percentage of this parelli rubbish taught in America?
		
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It is Rosie, and it ought to stay there, they should be banned from performing over here!!


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## Bedlam (7 September 2010)

I don't think that Linda Parelli is an idiot, and I don't think she's a bully.

I think the girl handling the grey in the video was very ineffective. I think that the combination of a self opinionated arab and an ineffective girl is likely to become dangerous.

I'm not a Parelli disciple.

But I cannot abide the blind hatred of everything 'Natural' on this forum........


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## Onyxia (7 September 2010)

AengusOg said:



			Please, please avoid them at all costs lest you be be damaged. Don't look at them, don't listen to them, and don't let them near your horses...see no Parelli, hear no Parelli, speak no Parelli...save yourselves.
		
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That has got ot be the most funny thing said on here in a long time    


There is always a mini debate about what is abuse in these threads.
http://oxforddictionaries.com/view/entry/m_en_gb0002970#m_en_gb0002970
^points one and two thanks 
A horse does not need to look like the poor creatures that came out of Spindles Farm to have been abused.


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## Roasted Chestnuts (7 September 2010)

Bedlam said:



			I don't think that Linda Parelli is an idiot, and I don't think she's a bully.

I think the girl handling the grey in the video was very ineffective. I think that the combination of a self opinionated arab and an ineffective girl is likely to become dangerous.

I'm not a Parelli disciple.

But I cannot abide the blind hatred of everything 'Natural' on this forum........
		
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Blind hatred??? i think not!!! So basically you advocate hitting a horse with steel clips then??? You think its acceptable to belt a horse round the head for being bolshy when there as PLENTY of other less painful ways to get the same result???

Having been dealing with a bolshy, pushy mare myself I have to say the worst she has got was a smack in the chest with a stick to get her to move back, after that a growl and a warning suffices, no metal involved. how dissapointing huh???

Nikki xxx


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## Onyxia (7 September 2010)

Bedlam said:



			I don't think that Linda Parelli is an idiot, and I don't think she's a bully.

I think the girl handling the grey in the video was very ineffective. I think that the combination of a self opinionated arab and an ineffective girl is likely to become dangerous.
		
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Agree,but that is not the way to deal with it.
Given that the girl owner was _still_ weak and ineffective under the watchfull eye of LP,how well do you think trying to replicate those methods on a cold winters day when horse does not want to go and is feeling nice and sharp will pan out?
NOTHING about horses is fast,anything worth learning or teaching takes time mixed with kindness and patience-and plenty of it!



Bedlam said:



			I'm not a Parelli disciple.

But I cannot abide the blind hatred of everything 'Natural' on this forum........
		
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Come off it!
There are plenty of people who practise NH on here and many more who like myself think the best thing to do for the horses in our lives is to learn as much as possable from ALL sources and apply what seems to be the best fit regardless of which "camp" the idea came from.
Monty Roberts and Kelly Marks would never be subject to this sort of forum bashing because they don't treat the horses they work with badly,the Parellie's do.


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## Crazydancer (8 September 2010)

I used to be at a yard where a lady did parelli with her horse, it worked well for them. Another girl had problems with her horse, not respecting her space, he could be annoying to lead, which I was well aware of as I turned him out for her during the week. They worked with him using the parelli methods, the end result  - a horse that reared (and still did not respect your space)
Yeah, great improvement that.


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## scally (8 September 2010)

I dont think there is blind hatred on this forum for things "natural" at all. 

However, Linda Parrelli seems on a self destruct course, bully and violent in her methods through teaching "non violent" methods, which are more violent than a lot of "good old fashioned" methods have have worked well through the centuries.

She evens strikes the poor horse on the nose with a whip to back it off, the poor horse his body language is showing you he is so confused, he wants to be with his owner for comfort and even then gets pushed away so he uses his own instincts to get away from these horrid people that he can now no longer trust and go to his own kind, to only have Linda give him more abuse when he is running backwards from her.

Please do not confuse Monty and Kelly under this banner of "Natural Horsemanship" as this is one thing they disagree on strongly is any violence towards horse or human.


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## Dolcé (8 September 2010)

Bedlam said:



			I don't think that Linda Parelli is an idiot, and I don't think she's a bully.

I think the girl handling the grey in the video was very ineffective. I think that the combination of a self opinionated arab and an ineffective girl is likely to become dangerous.

I'm not a Parelli disciple.

But I cannot abide the blind hatred of everything 'Natural' on this forum........
		
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Let's be honest here, all the 'natural' forms of horsemanship originate from the traditional methods anyway, I learned the traditional way and I can honestly say there was nothing traditional, or natural, in that video.  People deal with bargy, pushy horses in different ways and so there will me many different methods used just within this group of forum users.  I have dealt with two in recent years, one a haffy that took off every time she came out of her stable and a 17.2 CB that did the same, regardless of where he was, every time he was led in hand.  Neither were hit a single time and the problem was completely sorted, for both, within a couple of days - I used treats - not conventional and may be frowned upon, but it worked without trying to pit my weight against a ton of horse that is determined to go.  Both walked alongside me beautifully, stopping every few paces and waiting for a treat, a treat when the stable door was opened meant they waited rather than barging out, a treat when their headcollars were removed meant they waited to have it taken off rather than shooting off with it.  I simply reduced the treats and replaced with scratch once they understood, problem sorted, no hitting, no stress. (and just have to add, neither of them bite!!)

I consider natural to mean not using weapons against the horse, I don't hate all things natural but I do hate (after seeing that video) all things parelli, I would be very interested to hear from expert trainers such as Kelly Marks and Richard Maxwell (both for whom I have a lot of respect - and I have never seen them hit a horse) what they think of that particular method to achieve whatever what meant to be achieved.  I don't believe there is any comparison between the parelli methods and the methods of all the other natural/intelligent trainers but perhaps as 'advanced horse people' they will understand what was supposed to be happening whereas it is too advanced for us plebs!!


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## pippinpie (8 September 2010)

Just putting a few facts forward here:
#1 This is a very old video that keeps doing the rounds and keeps being used to fuel the fire
#2 Linda has already made a public statement regarding this clip from a much longer video where more understanding of the situation can be seen.
#3 The owner has given a statement supporting Linda and tells how the horse has been since the 'incident' shown in the clip.
#4 If you can be bothered to read though this thread : http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=383408  you might get some answers to your questions.


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## JoJo_ (8 September 2010)

pippinpie said:



			Just putting a few facts forward here:
#1 This is a very old video that keeps doing the rounds and keeps being used to fuel the fire
#2 Linda has already made a public statement regarding this clip from a much longer video where more understanding of the situation can be seen.
#3 The owner has given a statement supporting Linda and tells how the horse has been since the 'incident' shown in the clip.
#4 If you can be bothered to read though this thread : http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=383408  you might get some answers to your questions.
		
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So have they changed their training methods since this video and no longer teach people to hit their horses with metal clips?

I understand exactly what she was trying to achieve by keeping the horse out of her space but I cant believe she was teaching such a harsh technique. Considering Parelli is meant to be kind. 

Some of the principles of Parelli I agree with as its just common sense really but I dont like the overuse of the stick and rope. Too many horses get head shy etc because of it.


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## Kallibear (8 September 2010)

Golf girl hasn't been back to enlighten us.............

It makes me so cross watching that. Esp when I imagine it being my horse and how they would react - Toby would go nuclear and blind panic then never come near a human again. Piper would accept and tolerate it but be thoroughly frightened and confused  It almost makes me cry, imageing that being my horses and their frightened, worried little faces 

I do understand what she's _trying _to do and I've have used a similar (but much less agressive) method but she has no timing and gives no release or reward, nor does she show the horses what she DOES want so it can try it.

I have watched various videos of her 'working' with horses and in every one it's obvious she has no real skill for training animals - she doesn't make the right thing easy, she just makes the wrong thing hard (and painful and frightening). She doesn't try to shape good behaviour, she just punishes bad. She never offers a rewards for the horse trying, she only stops being agressive and violent towards it, under the delusion that this alone is 'reward'.

And most importantly, she often 'tricks' the horse into making a wrong move simply so she can punish it and 'teach it a lesson'. She actually seems to enjoy being violent and agressive towards the horses


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## JessandCharlie (8 September 2010)

Oh, one more thing. 

I was given heaps of Parelli stuff by somebody who was giving up riding and watched some of the stuff. This is quite old and the nose/face area is dubbed, by them, as a DELICATE AREA THAT SHOULDN'T BE HIT.

Hipocritical much? LP smacked the poor horse in the nose with that bleedin' orange stick!!


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## misterjinglejay (8 September 2010)

Where's Tongue in Cheek when we need her!


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## LauraWheeler (8 September 2010)

Golf Girl said:



			Em no, it's this thread that's (more than) a little off Echo Bravo ....
		
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There are alot of Parelli fans who just pop into this thread tell us all we are nasty, Bitchy, Parelli haters. Yet they never explain why we are wrong. They never try to justify LPs actions are even explain this magical point we are missing.
They probably never even read my posts about Herbie. They probalbly don't want to admit the damage this method can do.
As for hateing all natural horsemanship, I can tell you I don't, I do my own form of NH. Yes it has cost me a fair bit of money to lurn but I've had the best teachers money could buy. Lucy was my first main teacher and now Herbs has taken over. I have had lots of other teachers as well. Yes I have been taught by the horse the best NH teacher there is. I have been able to turn round so many written off ponies who would have ended up as dog food if I haddn't taken them on. They have all turned into happy, safe horses. Especialy my beloved Lucy she went from extreamly dangourous to the kindest, gentelist, bravest pony you could ever meet.
Why don't the Parelli followers ever show us examples of Happy, sucessful horses that have done Parelli. Inclu evidance of this so called dangourous behavour. Having had Lucy I know what truly dangourous behavour is, None of the horses in the videos look dangourous they tell to watch the whole video to see how the horse was before but never post the begining on here. Maybe that footage doesn't exist or maybe it's a marketing ploy getting us all to buy the videos? I tell you all what put your money where your mouth is PM me the footage if you don't want to post it on here. I will never line LP and PPs pockets, but I could tell you truthfuly how dangourous those horses are. 
Well Parelli followers the balls in your court. Prove to me i'm wrong show me this dangourous behavour.


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## Chavhorse (8 September 2010)

tinkandlily said:



			I for one love my horses to walk quietly next to me , not a mile behind, for one, you can't see whats its doing, if it panicks its going to run straight through you.
		
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Ditto this....I like to have his eye level with my shoulder so I can see what he is doing and thinking if he is 6 feet behind me and freaks out I am going to get flattened.  Still have him on a long line so if it does all go pear shaped I have room to let him run and bring him back.

Madness total madness


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## amandaco2 (8 September 2010)

Bedlam said:



			I don't think that Linda Parelli is an idiot, and I don't think she's a bully.

I think the girl handling the grey in the video was very ineffective. I think that the combination of a self opinionated arab and an ineffective girl is likely to become dangerous.

I'm not a Parelli disciple.

But I cannot abide the blind hatred of everything 'Natural' on this forum........
		
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i dont hate all natural things at all.
but there is nothing natural about learning how to smack a horse on the face with a metal clip. so i dont even see why that comment is relevant?


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## LauraWheeler (8 September 2010)

I just watched abit more of the video  I realy wish I haddn't. I watched that first grey pony till about 3.04  What are they doing  They are walking so fast the poor pony has to jog to keep up then they suddenly without warning change direction. They turn right round to face the otherway. The poor pony has to move very quickly to turn round to and linda smacks the poor pony on the nose with a LUNGE WHIP. They then do it again she tells the owner to flap her arms. All I see is a pony who is scared of being hit on the nose and is showing singnes of becoming head shy.  Then LP tells the owner to look SMUG  What the hell does she have to look smug about. 
and the parelli followers can't see all this. The pony was doing nothing wrong appart from being confused. It was NOT being dangourous. God I wish all the horses who came to me where that dangourous It would make my job so much easyer. I wish Herbs had been like that when he came to me but sadly no I deal with dangourous horses and ponies. Ones who would actualy hurt you if you treated them in this way and to be honest I wouldn't blame them.


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## riding_high (8 September 2010)

that poor horse looked fine until LP started to 'work' with it and the owner.

i understand that horses need to respect personal space and stuff BUT you don't need to confuse it like that. it pees me off because they claim that they are doing things for the good of the horse and condemn people who don't use their methods. sorry i'd rather be condemned than be one of them.

i used to look at parelli and think it was a good thing, being kind to a horse and i even went to a demo of theirs a few years ago, the last 3yrs they have got so into the control and money making that they aren't even bothered about the horses anymore.


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## Fellewell (8 September 2010)

There has to be a fusion of natural and traditional methods at some point. What I saw was an owner who had no control over an opinionated horse. It was pretty clear that the horse wasn't paying attention to its owner and would have tanked off (or worse) given the chance. I agree, the horse became totally submissive within the rails when the Parelli took over, job done, but the owner still had no idea and it was her safety that seemed to be at issue here. Perhaps we should have seen the owner without support/instruction to get a clearer picture?


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## kittykatcat (8 September 2010)

Just going to, ahem, go against the grain here a little bit.....I have watched the video and I agree that the horse did not seem to deserve the treatment it got to such an extreme....

I am not an avid follower of Parelli, I am not an avid follower of Monty Roberts, I kinda make my own methods up, based on a bit of NH, Parelli, common sense, traditional methods and science!

I have however recently employed the help of a 'parelli person' as a last resort to help my horse to load, after a particularly nasty incident. I have to say, my parelli person used the wavey rope in the face thing (i was a bit shocked at the time!) and my horse obviously backed away and then became a lamb (not the bargy, reary monster he was seconds before), she eventually got him to go in the trailer with the front bar up (problem was he would literally drag you through the trailer) which was a real achievement.

So, I guess the point of this post is, sometimes Parelli has it's place, and although some of the methods are 'harsh' I have seen first hand that they work. Although I am still a bit shocked by the 'bull in a china shop' way that LP came down on that pony's ass!!


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## Luciejjkk (8 September 2010)

How can wacking a horse in the face with a stick be justified?!


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## Sarah Sum1 (8 September 2010)

pippinpie said:



			Just putting a few facts forward here:
#1 This is a very old video that keeps doing the rounds and keeps being used to fuel the fire
#2 Linda has already made a public statement regarding this clip from a much longer video where more understanding of the situation can be seen.
#3 The owner has given a statement supporting Linda and tells how the horse has been since the 'incident' shown in the clip.
#4 If you can be bothered to read though this thread : http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=383408  you might get some answers to your questions.
		
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Seems to me that there has been more than one video (three that I know of) that Linda Parelli has had to 'explain' if it were just the one, then fair enough, but It's not.  Saying it is an old video makes no difference, she still used those techniques. 

If people want to ruin their horses that is up to them but why is it not one of you 'supporters' can offer answers to our questions?


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## zefragile (8 September 2010)

I don't like Linda Parelli, and I don't do Parelli myself, but I don't believe that all Parelli "followers" follow LP's example and whack their horses with metal clips. Fair enough to attack Linda over this, but to make assumptions about thousands of other people is a little unfair, in my opinion.


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## Amymay (8 September 2010)

zefragile said:



			I don't like Linda Parelli, and I don't do Parelli myself, but I don't believe that all Parelli "followers" follow LP's example and whack their horses with metal clips. Fair enough to attack Linda over this, but to make assumptions about thousands of other people is a little unfair, in my opinion.
		
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This is a really good point actually.  There are a few 'practioners' on my yard, and I've never seen any of them be remotely violent towards their horses - quite the opposite.  

Doesn't detract from how dangerous this woman is though.......


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## Sarah Sum1 (8 September 2010)

To add. Even if people are saying her methods work. IMO it is never acceptable to use fear and 'hitting' as a form of training. You could make just about any living being do what you want through violence, but does that make it right?

I am also assuming that other people that use her methods will be doing the same 'training'  But Zefragile you are right, I don't know that so will keep this to Linda only.


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## Pedantic (8 September 2010)

I have no axe to grind either way, and use anything that works for me and mine, as long as it isn't cruel or bad for the animal of course, but I do have to say this is the second video I have seen of hers which I don't like, all seems to confuse the poor horse, I also don't like her voice/accent, it gets on my tits, plus why is she walking round like a gay bloke with a strop on and dragging the girl with a drippy attitude about, maybe she should have the horse next to her and the girl 20ft away on a piece of dope, err mean rope.


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## Tinypony (8 September 2010)

Just an aside, don't assume everyone with a rope halter and long rope is following Parelli methods...


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## jokadoka (8 September 2010)

What's with the rope and the constant battering this horse gets one way or another, talk about confusing the animal! Not entirely sure what he's doing wrong in the first place?!
If L P feels the need to be a "safe distance away" from the horse, should she be working with it at all?!
When my horse is "in my space" as they like to call it, my "method" tends to be to ask him in a normal voice to c'mon boy get back, no pulling of ridiciously long ropes, no smacking in the face with a whip, and defo no sunvicer! I guess it's not ever going to make me a millionaire, but it does the trick...


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## poops (8 September 2010)

This needs to be given a new titile - how to make a headshy horse.


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## Katikins (8 September 2010)

I think one of the biggest problems people have with LP is the fact that the program seems to be completely contradictory.  I was under the assumption that the whole (original) point of Parelli was to get results the 'natural' way and with no violence towards the horse.  However, this is clearly violence towards a horse - regardless of how 'extreme' it is!

I learnt the traditional/BHS way but I can still remember being taught that even if there is a situation that calls for you hitting a horse (oh yes, I've hit my horses, aren't I horrible) you should NEVER EVER under any circumstances hit them around the head.  All you will do is create a headshy horse!  So if us 'traditionals' are so cruel, how come we are taught not hit a horse round the head but the 'kind parelli way' is to do just that!?

I would actually be very interested to hear from the likes of Golf Girl as to the rational behind this.

On another note, I do know that the likes of Richard Maxwell have hit a horse.  I remember an incident with a chronic rearer and he used a knotted rope to hit it under the belly when it went up to recreate the fear of being attacked by a predator in order for the horse to come down to protect its vulnerable areas.  However he wasn't beating the horse at all and it was extremely effective (but not recommended for novices to try).


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## pippinpie (8 September 2010)

I and others have spent hours on this forum giving answers to lots of the questions put forward in this thread, but they are not the answers most of you want to hear, they are just turned around and used to beat us with. I did post a link to a thread (here on HHO) that might help some people who genuinely want to understand the methods and theory behind PNH.
Some people on this tread are just plain ignorant and made degrading remarks about the poor young girl with the grey Arab, do you know this girl? do you know if she has 'other' problems? (other than her highly charged arab), you have only seen a snippet of those tapes and you know nothing of the problems those students are having/had with their horses and why they decided to attend the PNH course in Florida. When you know all the facts you may still not like what you saw but at least you will have the right to condemn.


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## Katikins (8 September 2010)

pippinpie said:



			I and others have spent hours on this forum giving answers to lots of the questions put forward in this thread, but they are not the answers most of you want to hear, they are just turned around and used to beat us with. I did post a link to a thread (here on HHO) that might help some people who genuinely want to understand the methods and theory behind PNH.
Some people on this tread are just plain ignorant and made degrading remarks about the poor young girl with the grey Arab, do you know this girl? do you know if she has 'other' problems? (other than her highly charged arab), you have only seen a snippet of those tapes and you know nothing of the problems those students are having/had with their horses and why they decided to attend the PNH course in Florida. When you know all the facts you may still not like what you saw but at least you will have the right to condemn.
		
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In that case could you please inform us about why it is OK to hit a horse around the head with a piece of metal when we've been taught from day 1 that this should never be done?  I'm not trying to be insulting or inflammatory, I'm genuinely interested in the reasoning behind it.  And also, please let me know how the horse in the video is meant to know when its doing the right thing because I couldn't see how it was meant to know what was the right thing and I'm a human.  Again, I'm genuinely confused by this bit!


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## Fairynuff (8 September 2010)

Bedlam said:



			I don't think that Linda Parelli is an idiot, and I don't think she's a bully.

I think the girl handling the grey in the video was very ineffective. I think that the combination of a self opinionated arab and an ineffective girl is likely to become dangerous.

I'm not a Parelli disciple.

But I cannot abide the blind hatred of everything 'Natural' on this forum........
		
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'Self opinionated arb'..where....? I thought he was a completely normal neddy who was quite content to follow his owner around! FFS, what do we want.Robots?


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## tongue~n~cheek (8 September 2010)

Katikins said:



			In that case could you please inform us about why it is OK to hit a horse around the head with a piece of metal when we've been taught from day 1 that this should never be done?  I'm not trying to be insulting or inflammatory, I'm genuinely interested in the reasoning behind it.  And also, please let me know how the horse in the video is meant to know when its doing the right thing because I couldn't see how it was meant to know what was the right thing and I'm a human.  Again, I'm genuinely confused by this bit!
		
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read this
http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=383408

i spent well over three weeks, honestly anwering, honest questions.

no patronizing, just answers.  

Not everything, is as it seems.

I answer questions about the video, lead ropes, snaps and so forth.  

if you have an honest question about anything, likely i have already answered it.

I am not a Parelli Proffesional, employee, or wolfe in sheep clothing.

Just a student who has been doing parelli for close to 9 yrs.

ps.  not a fan of the video either


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## Mbronze (8 September 2010)

Does anybody have a suitably vicious horse that Linda could come and visit,just to give her a taste of her own medicine


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## lillith (8 September 2010)

Tongue-n-cheek If you wouldn't mind answering one more question please?

Where in this video during the parading around (I am assuming that the aim is to get the horse to walk with her at a certain distance, stop when she stops and back when she backs) is the pressure released? All I see with my untrained eye is a horse quickly learning to stay in place and back when she does but getting increasingly stressed when it cannot keep up with the quick changes of pace/direction and the lack of release. 

I have trained both youngsters to lead respectfuly (from scratch) and taught an older VERY opninionated arab to lead respectfully for me (knew how, I had to persuade her it was worth doing for me) and on neither occasion had to flap, hit the horse with the metal clip, or ended up with a horse backing with its nose in the air twitching. Firm handling, voice commands and quick rewards got me decent progress in half hour sessions.


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## SophieRIDSH (8 September 2010)

I think LP is afraid of horses.  I really don't think she likes them either.

She wants to keep them at a "safe" distance and as soon as she thinks she has a problem she goes for the big guns rather than a slower escalation of pressure.


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## Rosehip (8 September 2010)

I can understand the *theory* behind what the idiot is trying to do...to keep 'personal space' and teach the horse to be respectful of it...but the method used is deplorable!
Melly would have gone over/through LP within seconds of the treatment starting, and she would have gone up and struck out if she was hit in the face like that. 
Melly is mentally (and physically) scared because of harsh treatment in her past, no nessesarilly pirelli, but from physical abuse like that show on that video. Sickening. If you saw a dog being treated like that there would be an immediate RSPCA investigation, but nothing seems to be done about this woman....beyond belief.


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## laracroft (8 September 2010)

Watched it all - so do not get it. Shocking.


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## Kallibear (8 September 2010)

pippinpie said:



			I and others have spent hours on this forum giving answers to lots of the questions put forward in this thread, but they are not the answers most of you want to hear, they are just turned around and used to beat us with. I did post a link to a thread (here on HHO) that might help some people who genuinely want to understand the methods and theory behind PNH.
		
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I think most people understand the theory behind what LP is trying to achieve. The point is she's doing it badly. VERY badly. I cannot see how anyone, inc the ardent parelli worshipper, can say the womans doing a good job of training a horse using 'natural' methods.

I KNOW what the horrible woman is trying to do. _I have used it myself._ But I was better at it - much much better (hard not to be really ). Unlike LP I have timing and the ability to praise for good behviour. And enough knowledge to try something else when the current stratergy doesn't work - LP just ups the anti more and more and more until it because abuse.

As for the 'opininionated' and dangerous arab - where? Why are parelli worshipers so bad a reading horses that they see this stressed and confused horse (who hasn't been _shown _the manner expected of him)  and think it's being dangerous and disrespectful?

People are not angry at LP behaviour because of the methods and theories used (most of them are sound and useful) but because LINDA PARRELI IS RUBBISH AT THEM! She is a hypocrite and does not practise what she preaches! NOTHING about her actions in the video is 'natural'.


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## Toast (8 September 2010)

The woman is a retard im sure of it. 
I cant fathom how any of what she was doing was beneficial to the horse or owner at all! I can almost see the confusion on that horses face.
The people who actually pay money to be taught by this woman are equally, if not more retarded. Can they not see theyre being conned out of their money and being made to look like idiots?! That woman was marching around with Linda attatched to her with that poor grey in tow.. someone needs to show her the video and tell her what a fool she looks. Perhaps i should start teaching people to ride with their hands in the air and their legs over the knee rolls because its a more natural way of riding..... for sure.
x


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## pippinpie (9 September 2010)

Toast said:



			The woman is a retard im sure of it. 
I cant fathom how any of what she was doing was beneficial to the horse or owner at all! I can almost see the confusion on that horses face.
The people who actually pay money to be taught by this woman are equally, if not more retarded. Can they not see theyre being conned out of their money and being made to look like idiots?! That woman was marching around with Linda attatched to her with that poor grey in tow.. someone needs to show her the video and tell her what a fool she looks. Perhaps i should start teaching people to ride with their hands in the air and their legs over the knee rolls because its a more natural way of riding..... for sure.
x
		
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OMG I'm a raving idiot and I needed you and all your gobby immature friends to tell me, gosh after 40years in the horse business many of them as a professional, dragged through the BHS system to stage 4, organised more competitions that most of you have had hot dinners, won more top championship with my show horses that I can remember, but something must have happened to me, I've joined a cult, and I waste all my money and best of all I'm being taught to beat my horses up.
Thank god I came on this wonderful forum where I can chat and be as bitchy as I want and no-one will care because its the norm.


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## QUICKFIRE (9 September 2010)

VILE woman, that being Linda Parelli


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## MissMistletoe (9 September 2010)

That poor horse. The worse part for me was hearing LP cheer when the young owner finally achieved a proud strike in the horse's jaw with the clip, and was then told to look smug. Pathetic.

Also, half way through, the horse is leading very sweetly behind LP where it has been told to stay, but all of a sudden for no reason LP gets out the rope again and sends the poor horse backwards again. Silly women.

There is only a thin layer of skin covering those jaw bones that the clip is bashing on, rather like our ankle bone; and I know how much that hurts when you bash it on something hard.


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## Dobby (9 September 2010)

pippinpie said:



			OMG I'm a raving idiot and I needed you and all your gobby immature friends to tell me, 

organised more competitions that most of you have had hot dinners 

won more top championship with my show horses that I can remember 

Thank god I came on this wonderful forum where I can chat and be as bitchy as I want and no-one will care because its the norm.
		
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Can I refer you to your signature quote?!


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## RSL (9 September 2010)

A small hit with the rope stings like hell why the heck would you teach someone to do that! Just goes to show that they shouldn't be doing horse training as a job.


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## sleepingdragon10 (9 September 2010)

pippinpie said:



			Some people on this tread are just plain ignorant and made degrading remarks about the poor young girl with the grey Arab, do you know this girl? do you know if she has 'other' problems? (other than her highly charged arab),
		
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Highly charged arab? 
I saw bullying in that video, I saw a girl who quite clearly is a novice around horses, and I saw a woman teaching the girl that the ONLY safe place for the horse to be was about 10ft behind her. What the hell IS that?
The arab did NOTHING at all to deserve the kind of force that was applied there, but give it a 'natural' title, and accuse those who question the techniques of being 'ignorant', et voila, you've got Parelli.


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## LauraWheeler (9 September 2010)

pippinpie said:



			OMG I'm a raving idiot and I needed you and all your gobby immature friends to tell me, gosh after 40years in the horse business many of them as a professional, dragged through the BHS system to stage 4, organised more competitions that most of you have had hot dinners, won more top championship with my show horses that I can remember, but something must have happened to me, I've joined a cult, and I waste all my money and best of all I'm being taught to beat my horses up.
Thank god I came on this wonderful forum where I can chat and be as bitchy as I want and no-one will care because its the norm.
		
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Oh thats very Mature. 
I just don't see how you can justify this video. Even if the Arab was naughty before the video started (although I highly dought it was as dangourous as the parelli followers would have us believe) During the video the poor horse did nothing wrong. They walked so fast it had to jog to keep up, when it did it got hit with the rope  They changed direction so fast it had to spin round very quickly to keep up, when it did it got hit by the rope and even the LUNGE WHIP .
It was not difficult to handle. I deal with problem horses all the time. I've owned them for goodness sake. I know what a horse is like when it's difficult to handle and trust me with a REAL problem horse you do not want to be standing 5ft away where it could easily spin round and kickout at you and there would be nothing you could do to stop it, or it could easily use all it's weight against you to pull the rope out of your hand. Come on 40years in the horse business many of them as a professional, dragged through the BHS system to stage 4, organised more competitions that most of you have had hot dinners, won more top championship with my show horses that I can remember. You must know all this. There is no way Parelli would work on the horses I deal with. Not in the state they come to me anyway. Herbie the pony I have now came from a Parelli home, that is where he got all his problems from. I forgot though all you Parelli followers ignore all my posts about poor little Herbie. Who by the way is getting much better now he's not hit round the head.
You can follow Parelli if you wish. You can continu to hit your horses over the head for there own good if it makes YOU happy. 
But from what I can see Parelli is nothing but bullying and making the horse so scared of you it does whatever you want it to do. 
As I have said before Herbie is the living proof of the damage Parelli can do with a pony that is truly naughty.


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## LauraWheeler (9 September 2010)

pippinpie said:



			Some people on this tread are just plain ignorant and made degrading remarks about the poor young girl with the grey Arab, do you know this girl? do you know if she has 'other' problems? (other than her highly charged arab)
		
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When I took Lucy on when I was 14 I had no end of problems in my life. I was 14 and being abused by a family friend and could not tell a soal it was happening, My dad hit me, I was getting bullied at school by other pupils and the teachers, I was being Bullied outside of school by other children and adults (I grew up on a rather nasty counsil estate), I was self harming, struggling with anorexia, Often suicidle, Trying to hold my family together, We had very little money and very little food, I was having to work all I could to try to pay for Lucys keep. I also had a very VERY VERY Dangourous pony. I had only been around horses for about 3 years and had only been riding for about 1 year.
NONE of that would have given me the right to hit her over the head with a rope and clip or LUNGE WHIP. None of the other stuff was her fault infact she helped me through it all.
Horses are not punchbags. They are living animals who need our love and care. NOTHING could ever justify what happened in this video.


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## Tinypony (9 September 2010)

Reading a few of your replies I think you are missing a point Laura, understandably given your experience.  If your pony Herbie had been trained by a "Parelli professional" or experienced student then he would not have demonstrated the issues that he did when you got him.  Like it or hate it, in the long term if Parelli training is carried out as they intend it to be, the horses emerge calm, safe and biddable.
You give Pat P any one of your fiesty horses and trust me, they will not rear up and rebel, squash him or similarly do him damage.  They will not end up headshy or scared of sticks and whips.  You probably wouldn't like what he'd do, but your horse would learn to do as he asked, just as 1,000's have done before.  The reality is that, when this training is done as intended, it works.  It works on any type or breed of horse.  I have seen it time and time again. The reasons why it works are the subject of a much larger and longer discussion, but I want you to understand that Parelli students follow the programme because they see the impressive end results and want them for themselves and their horses.  Then as students they believe what their teachers tell them, and follow instructions based on that.
The messed up Parelli horses that people always go on about on these threads are the result of people mucking about with horses that are beyond their level of Parelli experience.
This isn't me supporting hitting horses on the head with sticks and clips, I'm just sharing the facts with you all, based on my years as a Parelli student, and the many, many Parelli horses and trainers I have met.
When the Catwalk videos were shared I was shocked, they seemed to show Pat P compromising his own principles.  Videos like this one don't shock or surprise me at all, they are part of the training materials and do show examples of what can happen in a lesson.


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## LauraWheeler (9 September 2010)

Tinypony Thankyou for your response. Herbies owner was not a profetional you are right about that but she did have profetional help with him from a Parelli trainer. Every horse is an indervidual and Parelii did not work with Herbie. Maybe you could have eventualy beatern it out of him but anyone would get hurt doing it trust me. He needs love and understanding not fighting with.
Ok If you want to use parelli with you horse thats fine and I like the way you and Toungeincheek never actualy force it down peoples throughts. You both listen to what others have to say then state your case. The Parelli followers that do are the ones i have a problem with like pippinpie who deny that hitting a horse over the head is crule and say it's the only way to train a horse.
I know there are worse methods out there than Parelli I'm not nieve about that. I have worked in many yards and worked with many types of horses and some I only worked with a short time and have swarn never again.
I just get annoyed that Parelli is advertised as a kinder non violent way to train a horse and clearly it's not much different from traditonal methods. If used properly Parelli technics are not as bad as shown in the video. (I have studyed Parelli as part of a equine behavour course I did) While some of the princeples of parelli are ok some of the practices I feel I could not use on my ponies.
As I have said Herbs is improving now and becoming a happy pony again. There are many ways to get impressive end results and I choose not to get them in the way Parelli teaches.


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## tongue~n~cheek (9 September 2010)

lillith said:



			Tongue-n-cheek If you wouldn't mind answering one more question please?

Where in this video during the parading around (I am assuming that the aim is to get the horse to walk with her at a certain distance, stop when she stops and back when she backs) is the pressure released? All I see with my untrained eye is a horse quickly learning to stay in place and back when she does but getting increasingly stressed when it cannot keep up with the quick changes of pace/direction and the lack of release. 

I have trained both youngsters to lead respectfuly (from scratch) and taught an older VERY opninionated arab to lead respectfully for me (knew how, I had to persuade her it was worth doing for me) and on neither occasion had to flap, hit the horse with the metal clip, or ended up with a horse backing with its nose in the air twitching. Firm handling, voice commands and quick rewards got me decent progress in half hour sessions.
		
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this video is really no different than the linda barney video, which i give my full "opinion' of, on the only thread i have ever created.  it is a long thread, i answered about 200 questions, so what page it is on i cannot remember.

but what i can add to it, that is unique to THIS video, right or wrong, the PERSON learned to be safe by the end....I  was not there in person, nor have i seen this video in a long time, as it is very old.

i cannot say that it is the best way to teach a person to be safe, only that it is one way.  some people just dont understand how dangerous a horse really can be, nor the gravity of being able to keep a horse off of you.

did this horse appear stressed?....yes....why i dont know.  level one is about being safe.  i have seen many many people over the years being run over, time and time again, when one lesson like this, could save them a trip to the hospital.  this video is not a lesson on how to lead, rather how to keep a horse off of you while you lead.  again....as i state CLEARLY on my thread.  i do not, will not defend Pat or Linda or any of thier actions, be it in a tour stop or on an educational dvd.  the program works, but not for everyone, just like ALL training methods and ALL students.  I have seen far fewer wrecks via parelli methods, than those outside of it.

I am not saying this is the right way, or the only way, just one way.


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## siennamum (9 September 2010)

I appreciate TiC & PippinPie, that you are not trying to be contentious and sympathise that you feel the parelli system is demonised in these threads.

TiC, the reason your writing doesn't really resonate with me, is because you start from a position of seeing lots of dangerous horses and injured handlers. I'm not sure why this happens in the states, but in the UK, in my experience it doesn't. I've had horses and been on yards for 40 years and would struggle to think of an incident where someone was injured by a horse on the ground. I'm sure there are some, but nothing which really springs out at me. (This includes stallions, youngstock and problem horses)

Maybe if we had lots of dangerous horses there would be some excuse to hit them repeatedly to make them afraid of us.

It suprises me most of all, that defenders of this video are so insistent that the arab in question in any way needs reprimanding harshly. It's clear, as someone who knows horses, that the horse starts out really liking the girl and his problem is that he wants to have fun and he wants her to join in.

The lesson he has to learn is that it's not always appropriate to behave towards a person as if she were a horse and to have more respect for her. There are so many ways in the UK that we teach young horses these simple lessons, that I wonder whether you would find it useful to come over here TiC and watch some of us at work. I have a young horse who sees me as his partner in crime sometimes and tries to enourage me to join him in having a jolly, I had to remind him that I am in charge on Sunday. I wasn't especially violent although he did get a slap with the lead rope, it took all of 30 seconds and he was very apologetic afterwards.

PP I have to day that if you still encounter problems with your horses which warrant the kind of response shown here by LP - maybe you weren't paying attention when you took your stage 4. I can't think how you could get to that level of competence and not have well behaved horses.....


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## siennamum (9 September 2010)

Actually I can think of 5 instances of people being injured by horses on the ground.

1. Lorry ramp came down on my brother, broke his pelvis.
2. Large aggressive stallion kicked my brother, he had to step closer to it it ensure it minimised the impact of the kick. Being at the end of a 15 foot lead rope would have been expremely dangerous.
3. 3 people I know of being kicked in the face, one whilst picking out feet, 1 caught out by young horse in the field, 1 don't know much about (was someone on HHO), but reserve judgement about whether Parelli would have provided any answers.


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## zefragile (9 September 2010)

Laura, I have to take issue with the following quote:




			You can follow Parelli if you wish. You can continu to hit your horses over the head for there own good if it makes YOU happy.
But from what I can see Parelli is nothing but bullying and making the horse so scared of you it does whatever you want it to do.
As I have said before Herbie is the living proof of the damage Parelli can do with a pony that is truly naughty.
		
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Not everybody doing Parelli is hitting their horses over the head! I don't understand why nobody is getting this  The people I've known who do Parelli have all been experienced horse people with years and years of experience, and full of kindness and compassion, not merciless horse beaters like you make out.
Not once have I seen them make their horses afraid.
I'm sorry that your pony had such a rotten time, but his previous owner just sounds like an idiot and that should not reflect on the many other people who can use these methods without being abusers.


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## LauraWheeler (9 September 2010)

The Parelli method of natural horsemanship enables horse lovers at all levels and disciplines to achieve:

    * Success without force
    * Partnership without dominance
    * Teamwork without fear
    * Willingness without intimidation
    * Harmony without coercion
		
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This is taken from the Parelli website 

http://www.parellinaturalhorsetraining.com/natural-horse-training

This video and all the videos of LP and even some of PP contradict this.

In this video Force is clearly being used, they are intimidating the horse with there body language, using the horses fear to get it to do what they want it to. They are also using there dominance over the horse and as for Harmoney without coercion just see. LOL.
Everything I have seen of Parelli goes against what it stands for. Which is why I have said in the past I like the princeples of Parelli (as stated on the website) but I dislike the practice (as shown in the videos)

Also Tinypony I forgot to add on my reply to you. What you have said just shows the damage the marketing of Parelli does to the horse world. These videos are available for all to see and try to copy. Also people go to the demos and are told it's easy and are shown on horses who are all vetted before the demo (I know this is done have had friends told there horses are not sutable for demos because they are to bad. That obviously didn't happen with poor catwalk and look how that turned out ) Then they go home and think they will give it a go. Also the amount of books and DVDs showing clips such as the one this post is about.
The Parelli brand is not about the horse anymore it's about making money  and that makes me very sad indeed.


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## Sarah Sum1 (9 September 2010)

I guess when you see videos of the founders of Parelli using agressive methods, it would make you think this is what all parelli followers do. I guess though, not all parelli users are willing to use agression. But, if this is how LP does it, surely if you were to change the method to using no agression (by agression I mean wacking with a lead rope clip etc) (in this particular video I mean) then they can't be doing it in the way LP intended.   Or have I just confused myself completely


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## LauraWheeler (9 September 2010)

zefragile said:



			Not everybody doing Parelli is hitting their horses over the head! I don't understand why nobody is getting this  The people I've known who do Parelli have all been experienced horse people with years and years of experience, and full of kindness and compassion, not merciless horse beaters like you make out.
Not once have I seen them make their horses afraid.
I'm sorry that your pony had such a rotten time, but his previous owner just sounds like an idiot and that should not reflect on the many other people who can use these methods without being abusers.
		
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I'm sorry i'm not making out ALL Parelli followers beat there horses over the head. As I have said before I have studyed Parelli for a course I did. You could adapt it to however you wish and if I looked deeply at what I do with my problem horses I do use some Parelli in my methods, the same as I use some of Monty Roberts methods to. But it is all adapted to my way of doing things and what the perticular horse I am dealing with at the time needs.
The person I was replying to said she didn't see a problem with the video and the method used. That reply was aimed at her not all Parelli users sorry if I offended you.


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## pippinpie (9 September 2010)

Toast said:



			...............
The people who actually pay money to be taught by this woman are equally, if not more retarded. Can they not see theyre being conned out of their money and being made to look like idiots?! That woman was marching around with Linda attatched to her with that poor grey in tow.. someone needs to show her the video and tell her what a fool she looks. Perhaps i should start teaching people to ride with their hands in the air and their legs over the knee rolls because its a more natural way of riding..... for sure.
x
		
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Pippinpie:



			OMG I'm a raving idiot and I needed you and all your gobby immature friends to tell me, gosh after 40years in the horse business many of them as a professional, dragged through the BHS system to stage 4, organised more competitions that most of you have had hot dinners, won more top championship with my show horses that I can remember, but something must have happened to me, I've joined a cult, and I waste all my money and best of all I'm being taught to beat my horses up.
Thank god I came on this wonderful forum where I can chat and be as bitchy as I want and no-one will care because its the norm.
		
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Dobby said:



			Can I refer you to your signature quote?!
		
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Thank you for reminding me  I did let the 'flavour' of the thread get to me there, but I can't stand by and be insulted by these rude people, who would probable never say those thing to my face, which in my book they don't deserve my usual courteous replies.

Note to myself: don't let other peoples failings unbalance my own emotional fitness.


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## pippinpie (9 September 2010)

siennamum said:



			.............
PP I have to day that if you still encounter problems with your horses which warrant the kind of response shown here by LP - maybe you weren't paying attention when you took your stage 4. .....
		
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Where exactly did I say I was still or ever had any problems with my horses?




			I can't think how you could get to that level of competence and not have well behaved horses.....
		
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When you get to that level you are not just dealing with your own horses but others and with a multitude of problems needing many different approaches to solving and help dealing with. Phase 4 is just one 'tool' in my 'box of tricks'.


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## siennamum (9 September 2010)

pippinpie said:



			Where exactly did I say I was still or ever had any problems with my horses?


When you get to that level you are not just dealing with your own horses but others and with a multitude of problems needing many different approaches to solving and help dealing with. Phase 4 is just one 'tool' in my 'box of tricks'.
		
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Would your box of tricks include hitting your horse in the way Linda Parelli does?

To get a rude horse to back away from me I would hit a horse with my hand and I would hit it with the rope end of the lead rope. I would never hit with the metal end. This is what I am having real problems with., it's vicious.

I cannot accept that Parelli followers are claiming they dissaprove of Linda's methods and would never do such a thing. She and her husband are the leaders of this method, it's got their name. You kind of either agree with the methodology or you do similar stuff but it's not called Parelli - surely.


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## joey's mum (9 September 2010)

I firstly have to say that i am not horsey, and do not own one (though i am keen to learn all about them!!).  However, having a 3 yr old son, i would have to say that discipline and learning is far more effective without using physical punishment.  I don't know if horses are the same, but i would certainly be more open to training, etc, with TLC rather than a beating!


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## Kallibear (9 September 2010)

pippinpie said:



			When you get to that level you are not just dealing with your own horses but others and with a multitude of problems needing many different approaches to solving and help dealing with. Phase 4 is just one 'tool' in my 'box of tricks'.
		
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I think siennamum has raised an important point that's not been addressed. 

*Would you, pippinpie, have smacked the horse as hard as Linda Parelli was in order to make it step back.*? 

I'm an not diss-ing parelli (seperating parelli the method from Parelli the people) but interested to know: *Do you genuinely think Linda Parelli dealt with that horse shown in an appropriate manner?* Would you have done the same? Do you think that Linda shown a ideal and good grasp of 'natural horsemanship' that others should aspire to?

Many people are spitting undeserved bile and narrowminded hatred of parelli because they are struggling to seperate the leaders from the church, but the parelli worshipers are often just as bad and won't admit that maybe Linda isn't always great at what she does.


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## Dobby (9 September 2010)

pippinpie said:



			Pippinpie:


Thank you for reminding me  I did let the 'flavour' of the thread get to me there, but I can't stand by and be insulted by these rude people, who would probable never say those thing to my face, which in my book they don't deserve my usual courteous replies.

Note to myself: don't let other peoples failings unbalance my own emotional fitness.
		
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It's one of my favourite quotes too, I do understand that it is hard to live up to it all the time


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## pippinpie (9 September 2010)

siennamum said:



			Would your box of tricks include hitting your horse in the way Linda Parelli does?

To get a rude horse to back away from me I would hit a horse with my hand and I would hit it with the rope end of the lead rope. I would never hit with the metal end. This is what I am having real problems with., it's vicious.
		
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I would do whatever was necessary at the time, I can not say in one statement as it covers such a wide range of behavior, from 'cheeky trying it on' to 'get out of my way I'm coming through or over you I don't care' kind of thing. We are not just talking 'rude' horses here, we are talking about gaining the knowledge on how to deal with exceptional behavior, you may say that those horses did not show exceptional bad behavior in the clip, but sometimes you have to sort it before it gets to be dangerous for the sake of its future development and safety. Dealing with a dangerous horse is never going to be pretty.



			
				siennamum said:
			
		


			I cannot accept that Parelli followers are claiming they disapprove of Linda's methods and would never do such a thing. She and her husband are the leaders of this method, it's got their name. You kind of either agree with the methodology or you do similar stuff but it's not called Parelli - surely.
		
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I don't think they necessarily disapprove per say, they may just feel uncomfortable watching someone else dealing with problem horse, I'm sure watching many other trainers dealing with problem horse is not always comfortable viewing!
Many people who use Parelli and are experienced horse people anyway find there own level of 'compliance' to the pure Parelli thinking, and thats another reason people grow out of anything, they get to a level in their own competence that they can make there own decision as to what they feel works for them.


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## AengusOg (9 September 2010)

pippinpie said:



			I would do whatever was necessary at the time, I can not say in one statement as it covers such a wide range of behavior, from 'cheeky trying it on' to 'get out of my way I'm coming through or over you I don't care' kind of thing. We are not just talking 'rude' horses here, we are talking about gaining the knowledge on how to deal with exceptional behavior, you may say that those horses did not show exceptional bad behavior in the clip, but sometimes you have to sort it before it gets to be dangerous for the sake of its future development and safety. Dealing with a dangerous horse is never going to be pretty.
		
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So, are you saying that horses need to experience that sort of handling so that they know not to misbehave?




pippinpie said:



			I don't think they necessarily disapprove per say, they may just feel uncomfortable watching someone else dealing with problem horse, I'm sure watching many other trainers dealing with problem horse is not always comfortable viewing!
Many people who use Parelli and are experienced horse people anyway find there own level of 'compliance' to the pure Parelli thinking, and thats another reason people grow out of anything, they get to a level in their own competence that they can make there own decision as to what they feel works for them.
		
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Does that mean that 'many people' sooner or later find out that Parelli is not all it's cracked up to be, and that's why the sensible ones among them eventually disassociate themselves from it?


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## siennamum (9 September 2010)

pippinpie said:



			I would do whatever was necessary at the time, I can not say in one statement as it covers such a wide range of behavior, from 'cheeky trying it on' to 'get out of my way I'm coming through or over you I don't care' kind of thing. We are not just talking 'rude' horses here, we are talking about gaining the knowledge on how to deal with exceptional behavior, you may say that those horses did not show exceptional bad behavior in the clip, but sometimes you have to sort it before it gets to be dangerous for the sake of its future development and safety. Dealing with a dangerous horse is never going to be pretty.


I don't think they necessarily disapprove per say, they may just feel uncomfortable watching someone else dealing with problem horse, I'm sure watching many other trainers dealing with problem horse is not always comfortable viewing!
Many people who use Parelli and are experienced horse people anyway find there own level of 'compliance' to the pure Parelli thinking, and thats another reason people grow out of anything, they get to a level in their own competence that they can make there own decision as to what they feel works for them.
		
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It's interesting but you sound like me when I am justifying using a whip, or using force to get a rude horse to comply. I also will come down quite hard on bad manners to ensure the horse is obedient & useful ongoing. 

The difference is that I am pretty traditional in my approach and use techniques which are common knowledge amongst established horse people. Most people on this forum will do the same. I don't criticise traditional methods for being violent, as the Parelli methodology does, and then turn round and use violence.

There are 2 unanswered issues still for me.

1. where are all these dangerous horses? I don't know any, just a few unruly or rude youngsters. I have had lots of problem horses and ponies, generally the problems are with ridden work, as often as not they are pussycats on the ground. Generally problem horses are a problem because they have an underlying physical issue.
2. I haven't felt uncomfortable watching horse trainers generally managing problem horses. That is apart from the 3 clips I have now seen of Linda and Pat Parelli, both of whom use violent techniques on horses who they assure us are extremely dangerous but who patently are not. Would YOU hit a horse around the head with a metal clip for being a bit bargy?


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## pippinpie (9 September 2010)

AengusOg said:



			So, are you saying that horses need to experience that sort of handling so that they know not to misbehave?
		
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No





AengusOg said:



			Does that mean that 'many people' sooner or later find out that Parelli is not all it's cracked up to be, and that's why the sensible ones among them eventually disassociate themselves from it?
		
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No


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## Kallibear (9 September 2010)

I would do whatever was necessary at the time, I can not say in one statement as it covers such a wide range of behavior, from 'cheeky trying it on' to 'get out of my way I'm coming through or over you I don't care' kind of thing. We are not just talking 'rude' horses here, we are talking about gaining the knowledge on how to deal with exceptional behavior, you may say that those horses did not show exceptional bad behavior in the clip, but sometimes you have to sort it before it gets to be dangerous for the sake of its future development and safety. Dealing with a dangerous horse is never going to be pretty.
		
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no one is disputing that they do what is nessesary at the time to keep themselves and their horses safe.

But you still haven't answered my question - do you think THIS particular horse (who is clearly not dangerous) deserved that kind of treatment, or did LP get it wrong? Would YOU have done the same to the horse shown in the clip?


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## pippinpie (9 September 2010)

Kallibear said:



			But you still haven't answered my question - do you think THIS particular horse (who is clearly not dangerous) deserved that kind of treatment, or did LP get it wrong? Would YOU have done the same to the horse shown in the clip?
		
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Its not that simple to answer your questions  I was not there dealing with that horse (Barney the big bay) I was not there to witness what problems its owner was having for Linda to have to take over and show the owner how to prevent the situation from getting out of hand. You and I don't know why or what the horse did, so we can't speculate as to whether it had been dangerous or was about to become dangerous, I saw this whole video more that two years ago, this material was taken from a DVD Level 1 course that has not been for sale by PNH for several years now and has been superseded by new material after PNH redesigned the way that levels are now assessed.
Would I use the method (phase 4 slap with the snap) shown in the clip: yes in certain circumstances that I felt it necessary I would.


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## Tinypony (9 September 2010)

I just want to make it clear to Laura, I do not use Parelli on my horses.  Ever.  
I used to be a PNH student, which is why I know rather a lot about it.  Probably more than could be learnt by studying it a bit as part of a course.  I made the informed choice to stop following the Parelli programme, it was an interesting start, but I wasn't comfortable with some of the things I was taught.


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## LucyPriory (9 September 2010)

Would you let a parent do this to a child?  Even a violent child?

When you last lost your cool in traffic, the supermarket or whereever, would it be ok for someone to do this to you?

There is never any excuse for violence of this type.


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## Lady La La (9 September 2010)

I havent read all the replies, so appologies if this has already been brought up, But...

I was told by a parelli trainer (Who used to be my dog trainer) that one of the Whitikers uses Parelli trainers to break his horses, and was seen allowing them to warm up his horse at competitions?
Does anyone know if thats true?


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## LauraWheeler (9 September 2010)

Tinypony said:



			I just want to make it clear to Laura, I do not use Parelli on my horses.  Ever.  
I used to be a PNH student, which is why I know rather a lot about it.  Probably more than could be learnt by studying it a bit as part of a course.  I made the informed choice to stop following the Parelli programme, it was an interesting start, but I wasn't comfortable with some of the things I was taught.
		
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Couldn't agree with you more. I'm not saying I'm an expert but I studyed it in more detail than most people would have for the course. I find any method of NH intresting as as I said before I use little snippets from most methods. you can take the theory of parelli and adapt it to suit you and your horse.


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## Lady La La (9 September 2010)

Oh Dont worry about my post, Have since found on the interenet what I think she was going on about... Although it doesnt seem to be quite how she told it!

As you were


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## JadeWisc (9 September 2010)

This is STILL going on?

For something that is supposedly "mainly in America and should stay there"   You people sure spend a LOT of time and effort worrying about it and discussing it on here.


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## JadeWisc (9 September 2010)

LucyPriory said:



			Would you let a parent do this to a child?  Even a violent child?

When you last lost your cool in traffic, the supermarket or whereever, would it be ok for someone to do this to you?

There is never any excuse for violence of this type.
		
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 I am not condoning horse abuse but I am not so sure a child could trample over and kill the average adult so you can hardly compare the two ....just sayin


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## TedwinkleJumper (9 September 2010)

sarahsum1 said:



			The more I read about her, the more I want to slap her round the face with a muddy boot. 

ETA So basically, flap around and hit your horse in the face, so it is so scared to come near to you.! She looks so rough and agressive and the poor horse just looks confused and upset. Blooming idiot woman.
		
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Agree totally, wouldnt let her or monty roberts get anywere near my horse x


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## LucyPriory (9 September 2010)

JadeWisc said:



			I am not condoning horse abuse but I am not so sure a child could trample over and kill the average adult so you can hardly compare the two ....just sayin
		
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I think you are slightly missing the point. But it doesn't matter - a violent child can severely injure another child, an animal or even an adult.  And the violent child grows up to be a violent adult.  As a small (ish) person, who grew up in a violent household I know how to take down someone much bigger than me.  Size is not the issue.  I bite too!

The point is that aggression/violence towards another sentient being is wrong. Violence breeds violence.

I've worked with a few damaged horses, all of them damaged by human violence and/or ignorance.  None of them, even the seriously determined needed to be hit.

Clicker training and a bit of TLC worked wonders though.


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## jokadoka (10 September 2010)

Tinypony said:



			Reading a few of your replies I think you are missing a point Laura, understandably given your experience.  If your pony Herbie had been trained by a "Parelli professional" or experienced student then he would not have demonstrated the issues that he did when you got him.  Like it or hate it, in the long term if Parelli training is carried out as they intend it to be, the horses emerge calm, safe and biddable.
You give Pat P any one of your fiesty horses and trust me, they will not rear up and rebel, squash him or similarly do him damage.  They will not end up headshy or scared of sticks and whips.  You probably wouldn't like what he'd do, but your horse would learn to do as he asked, just as 1,000's have done before.  The reality is that, when this training is done as intended, it works.  It works on any type or breed of horse.  I have seen it time and time again. The reasons why it works are the subject of a much larger and longer discussion, but I want you to understand that Parelli students follow the programme because they see the impressive end results and want them for themselves and their horses.  Then as students they believe what their teachers tell them, and follow instructions based on that.
The messed up Parelli horses that people always go on about on these threads are the result of people mucking about with horses that are beyond their level of Parelli experience.
This isn't me supporting hitting horses on the head with sticks and clips, I'm just sharing the facts with you all, based on my years as a Parelli student, and the many, many Parelli horses and trainers I have met.
When the Catwalk videos were shared I was shocked, they seemed to show Pat P compromising his own principles.  Videos like this one don't shock or surprise me at all, they are part of the training materials and do show examples of what can happen in a lesson.
		
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So are you saying the end justifies the means? I have to disagree.


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## lillith (10 September 2010)

Can anyone show me an example of Parrelli video with a 'dangerous horse' in it? Perhaps I have spent too long around snotty riding school ponies but I have yet to see horse I would consider dangerous in a Parrelli video. A couple of slightly pushy or enthusiastic ones but never dangerous. 

Perhaps they would be in less danger if they wore hats.......but that is a whole n'other argument...


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## AengusOg (10 September 2010)

JadeWisc said:



			This is STILL going on?

For something that is supposedly "mainly in America and should stay there"   You people sure spend a LOT of time and effort worrying about it and discussing it on here. 

Click to expand...

I can't speak for anyone else, but I worry about PNH on several scores.

I worry about the attitude of some Parelli adherents that there is justification for treating horses the way 'Barney', 'Catwalk', and this grey arab were treated. 

I worry that anyone could argue that a horse being abused in an extract from a training DVD is acceptable.

I worry that anyone could argue that such treatment of horses is acceptable under any circumstances.

I worry that the defenders of this treatment of horses can claim that the 'before and after' pieces of the DVD, if watched by the complainers, would make everything alright as they'd find that the horse was treated badly for a good cause.

I worry that there is a growing mistrust of Natural Horsemanship methods in general as a direct result of this treatment of horses by Parelli founders.

I worry that novice horse-owners are being denuded of vast amounts of money by a shower of American sharks with double standards at the core of their teachings.

I worry about all the horses which are being ruined by those followers of Parelli who, having genuinely sought a method of working with their horses which will enhance their relationship, find that they have in fact followed the wrong route and created more problems than they've solved. 

I worry about all the people who deny themselves a varied education by believing that all which is not Parelli is not worth knowing.

I worry about the horses which, kept by utter novices, live lives of harassment and stress caused by constant game-playing without progression.

I worry that the UK is becoming America.


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## pippinpie (10 September 2010)

AengusOg said:



			I can't speak for anyone else, but I worry about PNH on several scores.

I worry about the attitude of some Parelli adherents that there is justification for treating horses the way 'Barney', 'Catwalk', and this grey arab were treated. 

I worry that anyone could argue that a horse being abused in an extract from a training DVD is acceptable.

I worry that anyone could argue that such treatment of horses is acceptable under any circumstances.

I worry that the defenders of this treatment of horses can claim that the 'before and after' pieces of the DVD, if watched by the complainers, would make everything alright as they'd find that the horse was treated badly for a good cause.

I worry that there is a growing mistrust of Natural Horsemanship methods in general as a direct result of this treatment of horses by Parelli founders.

I worry that novice horse-owners are being denuded of vast amounts of money by a shower of American sharks with double standards at the core of their teachings.

I worry about all the horses which are being ruined by those followers of Parelli who, having genuinely sought a method of working with their horses which will enhance their relationship, find that they have in fact followed the wrong route and created more problems than they've solved. 

I worry about all the people who deny themselves a varied education by believing that all which is not Parelli is not worth knowing.

I worry about the horses which, kept by utter novices, live lives of harassment and stress caused by constant game-playing without progression.

I worry that the UK is becoming America.
		
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Don't worry Oggybaby  don't you know it's pointless worrying about things out of your control, one of first thing shrinks tell depressed people!
Now I worry about.... erm let me see.............not a lot.

PS, I am living up to my signature, just helping poor Oggy from worrying.


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## poppypiebald (10 September 2010)

... Parelli students follow the programme because they see the impressive end results and want them for themselves and their horses. Then as students they believe what their teachers tell them, and follow instructions based on that....

THAT is the single most worrying thing: you should keep an open mind!  If every horse sung from the same hymn sheet, every horse would have an equally happy relationship with their owner/rider/carer.  They don't.  There is no One Way.  If there was, we'd all be experts and we wouldn't need to pay thousands of experts lots of money to find out how to do it.


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## LauraWheeler (10 September 2010)

poppypiebald said:



			... Parelli students follow the programme because they see the impressive end results and want them for themselves and their horses. Then as students they believe what their teachers tell them, and follow instructions based on that....

THAT is the single most worrying thing: you should keep an open mind!  If every horse sung from the same hymn sheet, every horse would have an equally happy relationship with their owner/rider/carer.  They don't.  There is no One Way.  If there was, we'd all be experts and we wouldn't need to pay thousands of experts lots of money to find out how to do it.
		
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I know what you mean. I spent 12 years with Lucy going from having a very very very dangourous pony to having the most amazing pony that ever lived. Lucy taught me so much over those 12 years but now I am starting the process over again with Herbie. He is nowhere near as bad as Lucy was but he was still very dangourous when I took him on. He needs dealing with in a very diferent way to Lucy. Some of the things that worked with her don't work on him and simaly some of the things that didn't work with Lucy are working with Herbie. Horses for courses as they say.


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## tongue~n~cheek (10 September 2010)

lillith said:



			Can anyone show me an example of Parrelli video with a 'dangerous horse' in it? Perhaps I have spent too long around snotty riding school ponies but I have yet to see horse I would consider dangerous in a Parrelli video. A couple of slightly pushy or enthusiastic ones but never dangerous. 

Perhaps they would be in less danger if they wore hats.......but that is a whole n'other argument...
		
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I just want to say that dangerous is a subjective term.  maybe when you look at a horse, you don't see it as dangerous because you are a skilled horse person with alot of experience.  what may not be 'dangerous' to one person, is a kick in the head waiting to happen to another.  most of the 'dangerous' horses i see, would not be dangerous to ME, but i see many people nearly getting themselves killed by them.


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## LauraWheeler (10 September 2010)

tongue~n~cheek said:



			I just want to say that dangerous is a subjective term.  maybe when you look at a horse, you don't see it as dangerous because you are a skilled horse person with alot of experience.  what may not be 'dangerous' to one person, is a kick in the head waiting to happen to another.  most of the 'dangerous' horses i see, would not be dangerous to ME, but i see many people nearly getting themselves killed by them.

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You are right about dangerous being a subjective term. Although I don't see how any of the horses I have seen on a Parelli video could be described as remotly dangourous. 
I'm sorry if someone is that afraid of horses they feel the need to hit a nice horse over the head incase they do something dangerous they have no buisness owning a horse.
I'm prity shore Poor Herbs didn't have half the problems he had when I took him on when his last owner bought him. She paid quite alot of money for him and took a HUGE loss when she sold him on.


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## JadeWisc (10 September 2010)

AengusOg said:



			I can't speak for anyone else, but I worry about PNH on several scores.

I worry about the attitude of some Parelli adherents that there is justification for treating horses the way 'Barney', 'Catwalk', and this grey arab were treated. 

I worry that anyone could argue that a horse being abused in an extract from a training DVD is acceptable.

I worry that anyone could argue that such treatment of horses is acceptable under any circumstances.

I worry that the defenders of this treatment of horses can claim that the 'before and after' pieces of the DVD, if watched by the complainers, would make everything alright as they'd find that the horse was treated badly for a good cause.

I worry that there is a growing mistrust of Natural Horsemanship methods in general as a direct result of this treatment of horses by Parelli founders.

I worry that novice horse-owners are being denuded of vast amounts of money by a shower of American sharks with double standards at the core of their teachings.

I worry about all the horses which are being ruined by those followers of Parelli who, having genuinely sought a method of working with their horses which will enhance their relationship, find that they have in fact followed the wrong route and created more problems than they've solved. 

I worry about all the people who deny themselves a varied education by believing that all which is not Parelli is not worth knowing.

I worry about the horses which, kept by utter novices, live lives of harassment and stress caused by constant game-playing without progression.

I worry that the UK is becoming America.
		
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  You worry a lot   here have a glass of wine ....or maybe we should make it a bottle....or two


and as for your last worry....

I worry that you have a misguided view of the majority of American horsemen. Are you suggesting we are all running around with carrot sticks and have vast libraries of Parelli DVDs?   This is a big place with lots of  top notch horsemen of all varieties that have been in great partenships with thier animals long before these people came about.    I hardly even hear about Parelli anymore come to think of it ( except on here) and NONE of my fellow horsemen where I currently live would have anything to do with watching them.  I have heard quite a few talking about Clinton Anderson though   Never the old cowboys however


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## fburton (10 September 2010)

pippinpie said:



			OMG I'm a raving idiot and I needed you and all your gobby immature friends to tell me, gosh after 40years in the horse business many of them as a professional, dragged through the BHS system to stage 4, organised more competitions that most of you have had hot dinners, won more top championship with my show horses that I can remember, but something must have happened to me, I've joined a cult, and I waste all my money and best of all I'm being taught to beat my horses up.
Thank god I came on this wonderful forum where I can chat and be as bitchy as I want and no-one will care because its the norm.
		
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Do you _really_ not see anything wrong at all in this clip?


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## BeccaandRoo (11 September 2010)

shocked, really shocked at that video. how is having him far away on the end of a lead rope safe for either of them? i dont understand why she fears the horse and needs him far away for her safety.
and exactly what has he done to deserve being smacking the mouth with a metal clip? for walking next to her? maybe he did get a little bit too close for comfort at times and so waving her elbow to make him take a step away, is acceptable but definatly not 'snapping' the rope 
sorry if this has all been said, new to this thread.
LP obv needs a lot of therepy to get over her fear of horses.


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## AengusOg (11 September 2010)

tongue~n~cheek said:



			I just want to say that dangerous is a subjective term.  maybe when you look at a horse, you don't see it as dangerous because you are a skilled horse person with alot of experience.  what may not be 'dangerous' to one person, is a kick in the head waiting to happen to another.  most of the 'dangerous' horses i see, would not be dangerous to ME, but i see many people nearly getting themselves killed by them.

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That's from a human point of view. How dangerous is the horse depends on how inexperienced is the handler. However, that doesn't justify treating a horse badly just because its owner is either unskilled, inexperienced or an idiot. If I went around abusing horses to allow their novice owners to learn how to handle them IF they became dangerous, I wouldn't get a lot of work after a while. 

I prefer to teach sensible, humane, non-confrontational handling techniques which, if practiced consistently, help the owner/handler produce a compliant horse which has no reason to become dangerous. That way, the owner learns to be quiet, firm, and fair in their handling of their horse, which establishes a bond of trust and respect between them. No flapping, no lashing ropes about, no pain, no fear, no confusion, no mistrust...

I have experience of handling dangerous horses too. Without exception they all have become dangerous due to inexpert or inappropriate handling by humans. Some have been ill-used, and some have been damaged by people who genuinely thought they were doing the right thing but just lacked knowledge/experience. Once these animals realise that they are being handled by a quiet, fair handler who doesn't inflict pain and cause them confusion, they become non-dangerous very quickly.


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## AengusOg (11 September 2010)

JadeWisc said:



			You worry a lot   here have a glass of wine ....or maybe we should make it a bottle....or two


and as for your last worry....

I worry that you have a misguided view of the majority of American horsemen. Are you suggesting we are all running around with carrot sticks and have vast libraries of Parelli DVDs?   This is a big place with lots of  top notch horsemen of all varieties that have been in great partenships with thier animals long before these people came about.    I hardly even hear about Parelli anymore come to think of it ( except on here) and NONE of my fellow horsemen where I currently live would have anything to do with watching them.  I have heard quite a few talking about Clinton Anderson though   Never the old cowboys however 

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Spiced rum for me please...but only a wee drop.

No, I'm not suggesting that you are 'all running around with carrot sticks and have vast libraries of Parelli DVDs?', and I do acknowledge that there are some very good horsemen in the USA. Some of them have ancestors who came from here after all.

I am delighted to hear that you 'hardly even hear about Parelli anymore come to think of it ( except on here) and NONE of my fellow horsemen where I currently live would have anything to do with watching them.' That would be an ideal scenario over here, let me assure you.


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## Kokopelli (11 September 2010)

There are so many nicer ways to deal with that horse. 

The waving the elbow thing isn't a bad idea but she had the rope in the same hand so the poor horse was getting the rope waved around his face it must have been a bit uncomfortable. When my horse gets in my personal space I back him up a few paces then walk him on again this works way better then waving a rope in his face.

Talk about sending mixed messages to the horse, she pulls him arou the corner which he gets as go faster which is fair enough and then she waves her elbow at him and LP hits him in the nose with the orange thing. So the poor horse has been told go faster just to be hurt fordoing what he was told! 

I'm pretty sure when you go around a corner with a horse you push them around rather then pull, I learnt this doing my Pony Club D test!! 11 year olds know this yet LP seems oblivious!! 

LP needs to go and learn how to handle horses properrly and stop teaching ignorant people to handle your horse without hurting them but wacking them in the face is ok and hobbling a stressed out horse is even better and if you ull it off your a better horseman/woman!!

Rant over anyone for a hot chocolate?


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## Vizslak (11 September 2010)

No word of a lie...my horse would kill her if she did that to him! He's a good boy and respectful, yep hes a bit quirky but not a dangerous horse. However he would not put up with that treatment and the more she pushed and said he needed to learn and continued with this method of 'training' the more he would try to kill her, she would not win a battle with him with these methods...she would definately end up very seriously injured. If it wouldnt completely wreck my horse I would be tempted to prove my point and let her try!  What a moron.


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## Tinypony (11 September 2010)

I've got to be honest, your horse wouldn't kill her.  He would eventually submit as have 1,000's before him.  I have seen it time and time again.  Do you think that Pat and Linda have never come across horses as fiesty as yours in the past?  They are still alive aren't they?  Don't offer your horse for a demo to prove anything, I know what would be proved.


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## MotherOfChickens (11 September 2010)

sorry, havent read the last few pages.

is this horse abuse at its worst? of course not but that doesnt justify it or mean we shouldnt complain about it.

self-opinionated arab?not sure what that means. I saw nothing bad/dangerous in that horse's behaviour, I saw a horse that had ended up with a nervous, novice owner-not his fault. arabs are intelligent, sensitive and all the ones I've known have been highly person oriented. certainly not horses that are hard to train or be around!

Please don't make this an anti-US thing, it's very naive and embarassing to assume they are all like the ignorant a**hats seen on the FHOTD site.  

I don't have much use for NH, if I had to pay a guy to teach me how to lead a horse over a tarp I would give up. I think if you can't work out a logical training process for something like that then you shouldnt be in charge of the important aspects of horse management.

However, most (but not all) people who get sucked into this are the more inexperienced owners who obviously arent getting what they need from instructors/other horse owners etc etc I don't know what the answer is-its all tied into the change in leisure riders, work, how we keep our horses  but LP recognised a niche in the market and have filled it.


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## Sarah Sum1 (11 September 2010)

Tinypony said:



			I've got to be honest, your horse wouldn't kill her.  He would eventually submit as have 1,000's before him.  I have seen it time and time again.  Do you think that Pat and Linda have never come across horses as fiesty as yours in the past?  They are still alive aren't they?  Don't offer your horse for a demo to prove anything, I know what would be proved.
		
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Yes it would ' submit'. any animal that is hit over the head would. It's called fear. Nice way to train an animal.....I don't think!


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## LucyPriory (11 September 2010)

Tinypony said:



			I've got to be honest, your horse wouldn't kill her.  He would eventually submit as have 1,000's before him.  I have seen it time and time again.  Do you think that Pat and Linda have never come across horses as fiesty as yours in the past?  They are still alive aren't they?  Don't offer your horse for a demo to prove anything, I know what would be proved.
		
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So as long as the animal is still alive anything goes?

An interesting point of view - not one I subscribe to.

For me, the only thing being proven is that in some quarters bullying, aggressive behaviour is ok.


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## Munchkin (11 September 2010)

Tinypony said:



			I've got to be honest, your horse wouldn't kill her.  He would eventually submit as have 1,000's before him.  I have seen it time and time again.  Do you think that Pat and Linda have never come across horses as fiesty as yours in the past?  They are still alive aren't they?  Don't offer your horse for a demo to prove anything, I know what would be proved.
		
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Give that Catwalk was "one of the worst horses" Prat has ever handled, I conclude that he hasn't seen many 'fiesty' horses.

Of course he wouldn't take on a truly dangerous horse, being killed when it reacted strongly wouldn't look good for his little circus act. He's not that stupid, is he?

If he DID attempt the approaches I've seen so far with a truly p*ssed off stallion, the reaction from the horse would likely be somewhat different.


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## texel (11 September 2010)

Here is Ellen Ofstad - you can get a stressed horse to focus on you if you are calm and persistant in your approach. The horse is upset and distracted at first ..... see for yourself. 

http://barnmice.ning.com/video/natural-horsemanship-the


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## HollyWoozle (11 September 2010)

This clip leads me to the following conclusion:

Linda Parelli = a complete tit

Yes, I watched the full clip, and although I can't understand the full context of the situation, there is no context in my mind which can justify these methods.

I for one don't see that the horse was doing anything wrong anyway. He looked to me like he was walking along with his owner very sensibly. What is all that "protect yourself" stuff about? Protect yourself from what? The friendly looking horse that is following along behind you because you're holding a rope attached to it? I personally feel that it would be much safer for the horse to walk closer to the owner, without that long rope dangling. When I lead Belle I like her to be next to me or just behind so it's easy to go through gates and so on.

All in all, I found the clip very bizarre and disturbing. Those of you who jumped into the topic to defend the clip then please actually try to do so, rather than just jumping down the throats of those with a conflicting opinion.


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## LucyPriory (11 September 2010)

HollyWoozle - you nailed it brilliantly


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## texel (11 September 2010)

as a change  from Linda - if you start with this video by Ellen you can watch how she works with a variety of horses with issues. 

http://www.barnmice.com/video/horses-with-problems-01-intro


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## HollyWoozle (11 September 2010)

LucyPriory said:



			HollyWoozle - you nailed it brilliantly
		
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*takes a bow*


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## brucea (11 September 2010)

Hmmm there are MUCH better ways to teach a horse to respect your space, there is absolutely no need to use such an abusive and aggressive method
		
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OIK - come on then - tell us all how you do it with a really pushy disrespectful horse? 

Ah - another 26 pages of anti-parelli, but not a constructive suggestion in it. Maybe you prefer novicey types to get flattened and hospitalised by their horses?????

LP is doing the right thing - byut the context is not there. You can clearly see the horse is paying no attention to the leader at all. 

You should only need to go there once. Obviously it;s far better to thrash the horse with a lunge whip (that's what people in my last yard did and that worked really well...erm not) or maybe use a broom handle acrioss the chest (a local BHS "trainer") 

Oh - and just remember - this is NOTHING compared to what horses do to each other to enforce herd discipline!

Absolutely NOT a Parelli disciple - but also not a great fan of the twisted invective which inevitably  follows any of these posts.


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## MotherOfChickens (11 September 2010)

brucea said:



			Obviously it;s far better to thrash the horse with a lunge whip (that's what people in my last yard did and that worked really well...erm not) or maybe use a broom handle acrioss the chest (a local BHS "trainer")
		
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well, neither are correct are they, why use the extremes? I am not anti telling a horse whats unnaceptable, they get in trouble if they bite/kick/barge but what she was doing was unnecessary for that horse for what he was doing at that time-not that I think that repeated hitting is ever necessary.



brucea said:



			Oh - and just remember - this is NOTHING compared to what horses do to each other to enforce herd discipline!
		
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really? that old chestnut! horses know we are not horses. animal behaviour is not only about dominance, the dominance theory in the study of behaviour is outdated bith in horses and dogs. wild horses arent forever beating the crap out of each other and even if they did, that doesnt give us the right to.


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## brucea (11 September 2010)

really? that old chestnut! horses know we are not horses. animal behaviour is not only about dominance, the dominance theory in the study of behaviour is outdated bith in horses and dogs. wild horses arent forever beating the crap out of each other and even if they did, that doesnt give us the right to.
		
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So...you think your 600Kg horse sees you as anything stronger, more nimble, faster, more athletic and smarter than he is? 

If you're not in charge, and dominant in the herd, then you are lower, and open to being shoved around and maneuovered in the same way that they would a subservient horse. Their priorities come first, you come second.

Anyone who thinks otherwise is simply indulging in simple minded anthropomorphism.

See you in A&E then Peter. Enjoy it. The nurses are always kind.

By the way, I don't use any agression against my horses, love them to bits, but they do know who is leader, and they do not walk all over me because "something happening over there" is more interesting and the horse's priorities are not paying atention to you - which is exactly what is going on in that clip. 

When you are around them, they should pay attention to you, not to anything else. You are their leader. Anything else is going to get you hospitalised.

Firm but nice, and nice but firm.


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## Spit That Out (11 September 2010)

{QUOTE]If you're not in charge, and dominant in the herd, then you are lower, and open to being shoved around and maneuovered in the same way that they would a subservient horse. Their priorities come first, you come second.

Firm but nice, and nice but firm.[/QUOTE]

I agree with the above but in the original clip LP clearly hits the horse with a stick the handler repeatedly hits the horse around he face with a metal clip off a lead rope and when the handler is obviously not hitting the horse in the correct "nice manner" LP takes over.

It's not the firm but nice approach, that is just vicious and bullying that horse in to submission.

No matter which training method you follow surly none of them should involve hitting a horse around the head?!!?


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## fburton (11 September 2010)

brucea said:



			So...you think your 600Kg horse sees you as anything stronger, more nimble, faster, more athletic and smarter than he is?
		
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Frankly, I don't care what the horse thinks as long as I am safe and in control! However, I am pretty d*mn sure my "600kg horse" (funny how people like to quote weights) doesn't consider me to be another horse. The issue of which is stronger is irrelevant; it's brain not brawn that counts. Trying to compete with horses on physical grounds _will_ get you hospitalized eventually. So don't do it!




			If you're not in charge, and dominant in the herd, then you are lower, and open to being shoved around and maneuovered in the same way that they would a subservient horse. Their priorities come first, you come second.
		
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What some (emphasize _some_) NH people don't seem to get, because they've bought into one or other flavour of equine social behaviour pseudoscience, is that you don't have to be dominant (i.e. considered as "alpha mare") to be in control. Why engage in needless competition with your horse as if you were another horse yourself? If you do, you shouldn't be surprised when conflicts inevitably arise.  




			By the way, I don't use any agression against my horses, love them to bits,
		
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Glad to hear it.




			but they do know who is leader, and they do not walk all over me because "something happening over there" is more interesting and the horse's priorities are not paying atention to you - which is exactly what is going on in that clip.
		
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Yes, except leadership isn't the same as dominance - at least, not for horses. The qualities that make a good leader aren't the same as what pushes a horse off their hay pile i.e. dominance. If you look at herds or groups of horses (domestic or feral) you will eventually notice that it isn't always the alpha dominant - the pushiest horse - that is the leader, the one the others choose to follow - and vice versa. Often they are different individuals. Leadership is about who is viewed as experienced, trustworthy and safe to follow, not about who gets first dibs on food and water. Unfortunately, the two roles are frequently muddled (for, I suspect, anthropomorphic reasons - because in _human_ culture the two roles frequently coincide).




			When you are around them, they should pay attention to you, not to anything else. You are their leader. Anything else is going to get you hospitalised.

Firm but nice, and nice but firm.
		
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No arguments there, as long as "firm" doesn't involve behaving aggressively or in a bullying fashion (like Linda Parelli in the clip).


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## fburton (11 September 2010)

Addressed to pippinpie...



fburton said:



			Do you _really_ not see anything wrong at all in this clip?
		
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Pippinpie - I suspect your answer is "No". However, my other question - slightly more interesting - is:

Given your extensive BHS experience, what would you have thought about the clip if you had seen it _before_ you embarked on the Parelli programme, not knowing anything about the methods they teach?


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## tongue~n~cheek (11 September 2010)

AengusOg said:



			That's from a human point of view. How dangerous is the horse depends on how inexperienced is the handler. However, that doesn't justify treating a horse badly just because its owner is either unskilled, inexperienced or an idiot. If I went around abusing horses to allow their novice owners to learn how to handle them IF they became dangerous, I wouldn't get a lot of work after a while. 

I prefer to teach sensible, humane, non-confrontational handling techniques which, if practiced consistently, help the owner/handler produce a compliant horse which has no reason to become dangerous. That way, the owner learns to be quiet, firm, and fair in their handling of their horse, which establishes a bond of trust and respect between them. No flapping, no lashing ropes about, no pain, no fear, no confusion, no mistrust...

I have experience of handling dangerous horses too. Without exception they all have become dangerous due to inexpert or inappropriate handling by humans. Some have been ill-used, and some have been damaged by people who genuinely thought they were doing the right thing but just lacked knowledge/experience. Once these animals realise that they are being handled by a quiet, fair handler who doesn't inflict pain and cause them confusion, they become non-dangerous very quickly.
		
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i totally agree.  which is why i said it was ONE way....not THE way.  Even though I am a long time parelli student, i use my own judgement.  I would not/do not, do it THAT way.  I was merely speaking on the statement of someone saying the horse wasn't dangerous.  I agree....it wasn't....for ME.  But i don't know the horse and owner, and i wasnt there for the incident to know all the facts.  

I don't blame anyone for not liking what they see in this video.  But the facts are.....it IS an old video, it is NOT part of the current educational material, and it was only a very small section of the teachings when it was, it is NOT the sum of the whole of Parelli Natural Horsemanship.

I was thinking about this on my drive home from work yesterday.  someone earlier mentioned the hipocricy of saying one thing and teaching another.  I can totally see how any rational sane tradition horse person would see and think that, based on the Linda/barny/arab video's and the pat&cat show. The sad thing to all this is.....what i have seen by many other well known and publisized trainers.......is that the others are FAR worse than pat and linda.   they just don't put it on tape for all to see.  they DO hide behind the barn.  CA is one who is highly agressive and cruel to a horse if he deems it is needed, at clinics on a students horse.  i watched him once repeatedly spur a students horse for a half hour, doing roll back at canter on a very small circle, to teach the horse to move its ribs from the spurs.  it was day three of the clinic and the horse was already tired and not used to such intense and severe activity.  i wasnt shocked though....seen him do stuff like that before......alot.  So it is being a hipocrite that makes them the worst as few complain about trainers who are 1000's of times worse than them.

i am in the states.  we do not, as a whole, have the rich horse culture that you in the UK have.  some of the stuff i see going on here would blow your minds. i cry at least twice a month for stuff i see people doing to horses that just isnt needed if they learned anything from anyone.  these are people who will spend much time and energy reading a manual and asking questions about thier new computer or phone, but not one freaking question about a potentially lethal animal.  

take this one on for size.....last month, at a party, MANY drunk people, and lots of kids, are totally and completely allowed to go "ride" the horses in the back yard. which included a barely 2yo colt recently gelded, started undersaddle by owner who has only owned/ridden horses for 6mos, whom they claim it has all gone 'soo well, no buck" and 3mo colt weaned too early off dam and given to them, and a highly witchy mare who has no probelms defending her new colt that she adopted as her own.  they did not supervise (not that a drunk person can) or even check what was going on.  the 2yo was so frightened, he bucked everyone off and kick an undetermined number of children, as did the witchy mare.  But they are proud of the "good time" they showed thier guests!  i wasnt even there, them just telling  me about it made me cry.  this is the stupidity of the horse owners i see on a regular basis, and does not even include the horrors of intentional abuse.

I am not saying linda's video is right or wrong. just saying, it is a whole lot of hubaloo, over not a very significant event.  honestly....you want to see abuse....look at the video in my signature, I dare you to make it to the end of the video without throwing up your breakfast.  until this is irradicated......i will not go after the linda's and Pat's of the world.  It is horses like this in the below video whom Pat and Linda are trying to save....Not you Brits with your centuries of good horsemanship.


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## eahotson (11 September 2010)

Welcome back Tongue in Cheek.I agree with practically everything you say.I didn't much like Parelli because my one attempt was poorly taught, but you know what? I have had a lot worse in the traditional world.The mad, the bad, the totally inadequate and the totally deranged.I know what I have seen behind the scenes at TRADITIONAL shows.A friend of mine worked many years ago for a then well known and successful showjumping team.They taught horses never to stop by setting up some jumps with distances that the horse couldn't make, when they stopped they beat them until they wet themselves.
Still not that fond of the Parellis and guess its in part because ofthe hypocrisy, BUT no they are not the worst, not by a long shot.Pat, in fact, I have seen do some really good work.LOVED the CAT and PAT show!


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## touchstone (11 September 2010)

I appreciate that there is cruelty in all methods and that there are worse things going on than the Parelli's - but that doesn't make it right that horses are getting bullied in the name of 'kindness' which is what really irks me.

If the Parelli's are helping people to treat horses differently, then why not go the whole hog and do it without the bullying and intimidation and force?  The handling in that video was abysmal, at least there will be a ready supply of head shy horses for Pat to fix though


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## Kokopelli (11 September 2010)

brucea said:



			OIK - come on then - tell us all how you do it with a really pushy disrespectful horse? 

Ah - another 26 pages of anti-parelli, but not a constructive suggestion in it. Maybe you prefer novicey types to get flattened and hospitalised by their horses?????

LP is doing the right thing - byut the context is not there. You can clearly see the horse is paying no attention to the leader at all. 

You should only need to go there once. Obviously it;s far better to thrash the horse with a lunge whip (that's what people in my last yard did and that worked really well...erm not) or maybe use a broom handle acrioss the chest (a local BHS "trainer") 

Oh - and just remember - this is NOTHING compared to what horses do to each other to enforce herd discipline!

Absolutely NOT a Parelli disciple - but also not a great fan of the twisted invective which inevitably  follows any of these posts.
		
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If you read my whole post you would have noticed I did write how to deal with a horse that gets in your personal space. You have basically just dis regarded my post, it had some suggestions on how to deal with a horse like that rather then hit it with a stupid orange stick!


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## Bay_Beasty (11 September 2010)

*Yawn* 

covered this topic much before??? 
Why yes we have!!

Is it boring to go over the same argument again and again???
Why yes it is!! 

Will peoples opinions change after this post, NH or non NH??
No I don't believe they will


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## MotherOfChickens (11 September 2010)

brucea said:



			So...you think your 600Kg horse sees you as anything stronger, more nimble, faster, more athletic and smarter than he is? 

If you're not in charge, and dominant in the herd, then you are lower, and open to being shoved around and maneuovered in the same way that they would a subservient horse. Their priorities come first, you come second.

Anyone who thinks otherwise is simply indulging in simple minded anthropomorphism.

See you in A&E then Peter. Enjoy it. The nurses are always kind.

By the way, I don't use any agression against my horses, love them to bits, but they do know who is leader, and they do not walk all over me because "something happening over there" is more interesting and the horse's priorities are not paying atention to you - which is exactly what is going on in that clip. 

When you are around them, they should pay attention to you, not to anything else. You are their leader. Anything else is going to get you hospitalised.

Firm but nice, and nice but firm.
		
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thanks for the concern lol but I have three, well handled, well mannered horses who are a treat to shoe, worm, travel, show, take away for clinics and hacks, lead out, hack etc two of them I've had since young one of which had never been handled, one came to me green in his teens.
you're right, I am in charge when it comes to moving them out the way, doling out food/hay but I didnt need some numpty with an orange stick to try and show me how. as another poster put it, leadership isnt dominance.


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## Tinypony (11 September 2010)

Originally Posted by Tinypony -
"I've got to be honest, your horse wouldn't kill her. He would eventually submit as have 1,000's before him. I have seen it time and time again. Do you think that Pat and Linda have never come across horses as fiesty as yours in the past? They are still alive aren't they? Don't offer your horse for a demo to prove anything, I know what would be proved."

From LucyPriory - 
"So as long as the animal is still alive anything goes?

An interesting point of view - not one I subscribe to.

For me, the only thing being proven is that in some quarters bullying, aggressive behaviour is ok. "

(I don't know how to quote all that properly...)

I wish that you'd read what I typed.  I said that PAT AND LINDA are still alive.  And I didn't subscribe to anything, I just made a statement.  Pat Parelli in particular has been handling horses of all types and temperaments for most of his life.  And in spite of his methods being suspect, he is still ALIVE.  So I doubt very much that anyone here has a horse that would kill him.

What I am saying is that life isn't a Disney cartoon.  Your/my/our horses wouldn't stand up to him like some horse in a film and stomp the nasty man into the ground to teach him a lesson.  They would submit to his method of training, as 1,000's have done before him.  It's not pretty, but the results are there for all to see.  (I am talking about the results of Pat Parelli training horses, I'm not talking about any of his followers who over-horse themselves).  In case anyone isn't clear, what I am doing here is sharing my experience of Parelli, I'm not condoning what happens on these disturbing videos, and I don't train my horses in the Parelli way.  I do however use rope halters and long ropes, which leads some who don't know much about NH to assume that I do.

Fburton, you speak common sense as usual.


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## tongue~n~cheek (13 September 2010)

touchstone said:



			I appreciate that there is cruelty in all methods and that there are worse things going on than the Parelli's - but that doesn't make it right that horses are getting bullied in the name of 'kindness' which is what really irks me.

If the Parelli's are helping people to treat horses differently, then why not go the whole hog and do it without the bullying and intimidation and force?  The handling in that video was abysmal, at least there will be a ready supply of head shy horses for Pat to fix though 

Click to expand...

The saddest part of being a Parelli student right now is that I cannot disagree.  The up side is, since those are OLD video's, Linda IS considerably better than that now, as far as your opinions would be concerned.  that is of course looking from the inside out.

I agree that it is not right in any format, but nothing done, comes close to the blows a horse can deliver.

as beasty-bay said....this is an old argument.....different video....been there.....yawned over it to death.

I doubt much that i say could change anyones mine, which is why i don't try.  besides, like i said....i dont' defend them.  they have to stand judgement for thier actions themselves.  not me.


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## dolly1971 (2 September 2012)

Hi hope someone can help does anyone know if parelli makes horses nasty?


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## JingleTingle (2 September 2012)

Oh dear - here we go!


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## Pixxie (2 September 2012)

Excellent just made my cuppa  piece of sponge anyone??


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## Mongoose11 (2 September 2012)

Pixxie said:



			Excellent just made my cuppa  piece of sponge anyone??
		
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Cake please. Is it Cherry Maderia by any chance? 

I haven't seen the original video and it isn't available now - anyone have a new link?


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## sarahann1 (2 September 2012)

dolly1971 said:



			Hi hope someone can help does anyone know if parelli makes horses nasty?
		
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If you have a spare few days read through this post and make your mind up what the general consensus of opinion is re Parelli.



Pixxie said:



			Excellent just made my cuppa  piece of sponge anyone??
		
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oh yes please, I never say no to cake, thanks


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## MrsMozart (2 September 2012)




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## Pixxie (2 September 2012)

I'm afraid not its a sponge tray bake affair with simple icing sugar icing and hundreds and thousands  *holds out tin*


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## Marydoll (2 September 2012)

I cant view as the videos been pulled, but having seen both parellis in action i wouldnt allow any of them near any of my horses, both of them get right on my st moritz !


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## Pixxie (2 September 2012)

Ooo and homemade I forgot to mention


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## Mongoose11 (2 September 2012)

Pixxie said:



			I'm afraid not its a sponge tray bake affair with simple icing sugar icing and hundreds and thousands  *holds out tin*
		
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*peers into tin as if genuinely fussy rather than 'will eat anything' dustbin type of girl'*

Oooohh go on then


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## Ladyinred (2 September 2012)

Someone must be bored to resurrect a two year old thread!!


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## PolarSkye (2 September 2012)

Oh dear.

Assuming the person who resurrected this thread is a) not a troll; and b) has covered themselves head to toe in flame retardant material . . .

. . . no, I don't think teaching Parelli necessarily makes horses nasty . . . but IMHO it does depend largely on how Parelli is applied, the temperament of the horse, the temperament of the owner and who else handles the horse (and how).

I think, if Parelli is applied in a very "narrow" and rigid way, it can make a horse quite "specific" and narrow in its thinking . . . which may mean that when someone who doesn't practice Parelli handles the horse (e.g., a groom on a full livery yard) that wires get crossed (between horse and handler) and things go wrong.

P


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## sarahann1 (2 September 2012)

Think cake and pop corn need to go to another resurrected thread  

Cant help wonder if an existing member is up to mischief?


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## Tinypony (2 September 2012)

I turn my back for 4 days and someone digs up a load of Parelli archive material.  In the nicest possible way... Why??


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## Golf Girl (2 September 2012)

WTF???


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## Moon (2 September 2012)

Tinypony,.i asked the same on one of the other posts! Am sure im missing something here! strange


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## amandaco2 (2 September 2012)

Sounds weird.is she still allowed out???after the partially blind horse episode.....


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## Shysmum (2 September 2012)

NO MORE PARELLI POSTS PETITION COMING SOON !!!!


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## Queenbee (2 September 2012)

Golf Girl said:



			WTF??? 

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^^ this made me snort my wine out of my nose.... luckily I managed to soak it up with a kitchen towel and squeeze it back into the bottle....


Wine anyone?


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## Shysmum (2 September 2012)

Wine you say, why, I wouldn't be so rude as to decline


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## MrsElle (2 September 2012)

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha *breathes* hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha  *breathes*
hahahahaha.........

Needed cheering up today, thanks dolly1971!


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## misterjinglejay (3 September 2012)

I've got some brown rice if anyone wants some - after all, that's what HHO users eat, whilst wearing sandals, isn't it


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## el_Snowflakes (3 September 2012)

ldlp111 said:



			omg at one point she says 'see how safe I am with him so far away!'
im lost for words

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Im sure the horse was thinking the same about her!!


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## Amymay (3 September 2012)

elsazzo said:



			Im sure the horse was thinking the same about her!!
		
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