# sorry 2 keep going on about this, towing YOU ARE ALL BREAKING THE LAW!



## jen1 (28 November 2008)

OK so after my post asking if a Pajero/Shogun SWB could tow 2 cobs in an Ifor Williams 505, and being told no due to the 85% rule I looked on a web site that gives the towing capacity for various makes of vehicle, I worked out then that 2 x cobs weighing 650kg = 1300kg an IW comes in at 920kg so that makes 2200kg, so without passengers or kit that would make it WAY over just about every towing vehicle on the road, except the Range Rover 4.2 supercharged V8 which can tow 2284kg.

Am I missing something here or is everyone who tows a couple of horses breaking the law? OK so these are cobs but I bet there's some bigger horses out there??

Can someone enlighten me? or have I just embarrassed myself by getting it all totally wrong??....


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## flyingfeet (28 November 2008)

85% rule is recommended, not law

Towing capacity of every vehicle is easily found. My Sorento can tow 2.8t legally. So that takes care of my 1t ifor and two neddies and kit. 

However if I wanted a super dooper equitrek weighing in at 1750kg, I could only tow one horse. 

I think everyone just needs to be aware of what their legal tow weight is and not what their vehicle happens to be able to tow without make unusual noises. 

A SWB defender comes in at a whopping tow weight of 3.5t, despite its size, purely because its damn heavy!


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## SDH (28 November 2008)

your Pajero SWB probably has a max weight it can tow of 2.8ton. 

So 2 cobs + weigh of trailer is under this limit

(max tow limit should be in your handbook ..... which if anything like mine is in Japanese, LOL, but you can purchase english editions on the web)


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## eriskaypony (28 November 2008)

There are two things you need to bear in mind : legal restrictions on the weight you can tow because of the licence you hold, and the manufacturers towing limits, which are not legal limits. 

It is the type of licence that has a restriction based on the relationship of the weights of the vehicle / trailer. As a result, I can tow more than my wife with the same vehicle as we have different licences.


Below is an extract from the Dept of Transport.

[ QUOTE ]

Weight
In the case of light trailers, that is less than 3500kg maximum laden weight, there is not any specified relationship in UK law between the weight of the towing vehicle and the weight of the trailer.

For M1 category vehicles (motor vehicles used for the carriage of passengers and comprising not more than eight seats in addition to the driver's seat) the maximum permissible trailer weight is quoted by the vehicle manufacturer. Alternatively, the vehicle manufacturer may provide a maximum gross train weight (the laden weight of the trailer plus the laden weight of the towing vehicle). If this is exceeded it is possible that the Courts or Insurance Companies may take the view that this constitutes a danger.


[/ QUOTE ] 

http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/roads/vehicles/vssafety/requirementsfortrailers

And here's the link that explains what driving licence you need to tow a caravan or trailer of a particlular weight.

http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Motoring/DriverLicensing/CaravansTrailersCommercialVehicles/DG_4022564


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## LCM (28 November 2008)

Towing is all about common sense, it is not the pulling power it stopping power that is the main prioroty, if your vehicle can tow 2.5t  it actualy means your vehicle can brake within required distance towing a braked trailer up to 2.5t, it can probaly tow more but your braking is seriously affected.
Also a lot of 4x4 maximum towing weights are recomeded with the vehicle in low ratio for high ratio (normal running) they are reduced 
As I said common sense If towing whatever in low ratio at 25mph with maximum engine braking assist as well as brakes, stopping distance is a lot shorter than, high ratio 50-60 mph with minimal engine braking assist


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## pennyh (28 November 2008)

there are lots of vehicles that have legal towing capacities in the region of 3-3500kg

range rover , discovery , L200 , navara ,ranger, trooper , landcruiser ..........................


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## Jingleballs (28 November 2008)

Bear in mind it's not the weight of the trailer and horse that matters but the maximum laden weight of the trailer which for an ifor is 2600kg (ish)

I can tow 2000kg with my Xtrail but need to get either a trailer with a lower max weight or get the plates changed on an ifor to change the max weight to 2000kg in order to be legal.


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## Rollin (28 November 2008)

We were horrified to learn that my husband's top of the range LEXUS Hybrid 4WD was not powerful enough to tow two 600kg horses!!

I understand that the towing regs came in in 1997 as a result of EU Legislation.  Another example for France signing up and then ignoring.  We see dozens of family saloons towing horse boxes - AND they overtake when we are motoring along at 60mph!!

French resident


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## flyingfeet (28 November 2008)

[ QUOTE ]
there are lots of vehicles that have legal towing capacities in the region of 3-3500kg

range rover , discovery , L200 , navara ,ranger, trooper , landcruiser .......................... 

[/ QUOTE ]

Err no 3 out of 6 for you!

L200 - 2.7t
Navara - 2.25t or 2.7t
Ranger - Either 2t or 2.8t


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## Tia (28 November 2008)

[ QUOTE ]
YOU ARE ALL BREAKING THE LAW!  

[/ QUOTE ] 
Not me.  My truck is licenced to tow 4,400kgs  
	
	
		
		
	


	




.  Granted it really is a big-ass truck though  
	
	
		
		
	


	




.


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## neddynesbitt (28 November 2008)

Sorry but also the Toyota Landcruiser is only 2.8t, you can only tow 3.5t with the Landcruiser Amazon but not the Colorado.

I had a terrible experience a few years ago with my friends LT35 with an Ifor Williams body.

She had 2 Highland ponies (who are quite heavy) I queried whether we were ok with the weight and she assured me that it was fine as the vehicle capacity was 3.5t.  She also said that when she was sold the vehicle it could take 2 x 16hh horses.

Anyway, she asked me one day if I could drive it to Plumpton for her.  She was driving in front of me in her car and going uphill obviously I could not keep up with her BUT when it came to going downhill, she decided at the last minute that we were to turn right and she was quite a way in front of me.  I COULD NOT STOP!! It was the most scary thing ever, it felt as though someone was pushing me from behind and it didn't matter whether I pumped the brakes or pressed down hard on them, I was not stopping.  I had to swerve on the wrong side of the road to avoid wiping her out!!

I was very upset obviously and said that I was cross with myself as I had been unsure about the weight beforehand.  We took it to a local weighbridge and the owner was horrified to discover that we could only JUST carry one Highland pony legally.

It was such a shock and a real lesson to us that its not the pulling power but the stopping thats a problem.


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## perfect11s (28 November 2008)

You must  remember...  do not exceed the trailer gross weight , do not exceed the car manufactures recomended max towing weight or and or  the max train weight  

 your trailer does NOT need re plateing to the car towing weight.... this is for bigger trailers (HGV) that is over 3.5 ton


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## perfect11s (28 November 2008)

Just like to add it is CRITICAL  that the brakes are in good condition and corectly adjusted,  on a trailer they soon get worn and lose efficency, resulting in  longer stopping distance  and a greater chance of jackknifing ... get em checked now folks...


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## jac47 (28 November 2008)

No landrovers can pull up to 4 ton


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## BigRed (28 November 2008)

The Isuzu Trooper 3.1TD can tow 3.5 ton braked trailer.  All you need to do is check the manufacturers recommended towing weights.


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## BeckyD (28 November 2008)

[ QUOTE ]

A SWB defender comes in at a whopping tow weight of 3.5t, despite its size, purely because its damn heavy! 

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd actually argue against that.  The SWB defender (indeed the LWB Defender as well) aren't heavy at all.  The towing ability comes down to engine ability I think, rather than weight.  Defenders (newish ones at least) certainly weigh a heck of a lot less than my Sorento yet can legally tow slightly more!  Odd, the world is odd.


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## brighteyes (28 November 2008)

You have to be within the towing capacity of your vehicle as specified by the manufacturers, and as the max payload of an Ifor is about 2.5 tonnes, your vehicle and trailer complete with fuel, occupants (equine, canine and human) tack butties and other junk must bw within the specified gross train weight.  The insurance and safety implications alone should have everyone who isn't quite sure, having a jolly good look at the figures.

Here  is the link to vehicle makes and models and their towing limits.  If the vehicle isn't listed. Google it - the numbers will be there... 

If you want to be really pedantic, work out all the figures longhand from specs, weigh everything else and if you feel confident you are legal, get along to a weighbridge.

Also bear in mind that if no weighbridge is available at a roadside check, the police go off the plated mlw (max laden weight) stamped on your trailer's drawbar and go off that - sooooo even if you are only towing a Shettie and a bale of hay, you might find yourself in trouble!


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## Seahorse (28 November 2008)

My Jeep Grand Cherokee 4l can tow 3500kg!


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## BigRed (28 November 2008)

Apart from anything else, do you really think that police would ignore all the women towing their horses around in various 4x4's if we were all blatently breaking the law ?

The forum would be awash with stories of people who had been nicked.


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## Roasted Chestnuts (28 November 2008)

Kerb weight isnt law.

I can tow Kia my 500kg plus my 505 which weighs 1405gks add 50kgs for tack/hay etc so say max of 1470kgs in the trailer.

My Xtrail has a max braked tow weight of 2500kgs although I would never be pulling that which means that legally I can tow my 505 which has a max weight of 2340kgs.

Or what you can do is do what BB suggested and get the trailer plated to what ever your car can tow and you would be legal.

Nikki xxxx


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## flyingfeet (28 November 2008)

Actually I am not sure whether the police would be that worried by overweight trailers. However if you were in an accident you would not be insured, and heaven forbid if anything happened to your horse, if they were travelling in an overweight trailer for the vehicle I doubt that would pay out either. 

So worth bearing in mind that if you caused an accident you would become personally liable for being sued in the event of an accident.

Yes trailers do cause accidents - sadly one went accross the A361 at Charlbury and killed someone in August.


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## Angua2 (28 November 2008)

thank god I have a LR Disco which easily tows my IW 505 and two 16hh horses with weight to spare


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## Taffster (28 November 2008)

I have a wagon and a trailer and am in the middle of ordering my new company car - i was surprised to learn the toyota verso which is a mpv has a max tow weight of 1100kg however i have decided to go for the mazda 5 which has 1800kg so i'm assuming that 2.8ltr 4x4 are capable of towing way over 2tonne legally!


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## Maisy (28 November 2008)

I find it all too confusing.  I have a discovery and a IW505 and generally only take my 15h mare in.  Even if I had 2 in there, I am pretty sure I am under what is legal.


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## tania01 (28 November 2008)

i got a frontera lwb and a rice trailer,well last week i got pulled over by transport police and had to go on the weight bridge to see if i was over,i never had any of my horses in but was loaded to the hill as i was moving from lincoln to derby,my OH is a falconer so i had all his pens for his birds in which are very heavy and the slabs for them to be honest the 4x4 was not happy with the weight,well i sailed through the check point and they checked everything and said i was way under the weight limit,i did ask whats the limit they told me al the weight limits are in the manual for the 4x4


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## perfect11s (28 November 2008)

The plated weights of trailers applys only to hgv trailers in the uk...  under 3500kg   there is no relationship between the towing vehicle and trailer weight....


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## custard (28 November 2008)

[ QUOTE ]
 have I just embarrassed myself by getting it all totally wrong??.... 

[/ QUOTE ]

Sadly I think you are probably right and there are loads of people out there who are 'overweight' so to speak, risking their own safety not to mention other people's.  The reason they don't get caught and prosecuted is the lack of suitably qualified Police officers authorised to weigh vehicles and lack of calibrated weigh bridges.

That said there are certain motorways now fitted with dynamic weighing equipment built into the surface of the road, the ticket just arrives in the post.  So, you've all been warned!


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## suzysparkle (28 November 2008)

The 85% figure is a recommendation, not a legal limit, given by all caravan clubs to give good power to weight ratio for successful towing. You can legally tow up to the car manufacturers towing limit. This may be in excess of 100% but only if you passed your car driving test before January 1st 1997


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## lilym (28 November 2008)

rubbish.......look under the bonnet on the VIN plate you will see a series of numbers and weights in kg's
the top long number is the VIN (vehicle identification number)

the next number is the kerbweight of the vehicle

then the towing capacity

under this is another number this is the GTW the gross train weight THIS is the weight you must not exceed.

to give and example my daihatsu fourtrack has the following...
1750kg = vehicle weight
3500kg = towing capacity braked trailers
5250kg = gross train weight....

so......1750kg vehicle
1000kg ifor williams trailer
say 1200kgs for a couple of big horses..
that = 3950kg's leaving 1300kgs for occupants, tack water etc.......

the onus is to check that vin plate.....fourtracks, defenders, discoveries, are plated to 3500kg towing capacity, not sure about other makes...


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## Jingleballs (28 November 2008)

[ QUOTE ]
The plated weights of trailers applys only to hgv trailers in the uk...  under 3500kg   there is no relationship between the towing vehicle and trailer weight.... 
	
	
		
		
	


	





[/ QUOTE ]


That's interesting - this seems to be a belief held by several people I know - I personally find it rediculous as by changing the plates you do not in turn change the capacity of the trailer but are just making a promise not to tow over the plated weight - not likely that anyone pulling you over would have a clue about this stuff!  Way I look at it is if my 4x4 can tow 2000kg and I'm only towing  1500kg (horse + trailer) we are legal and safe!


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## CrazyDog (28 November 2008)

[ QUOTE ]
 [ QUOTE ]
YOU ARE ALL BREAKING THE LAW!  

[/ QUOTE ] 
Not me.  My truck is licenced to tow 4,400kgs  
	
	
		
		
	


	




.  Granted it really is a big-ass truck though  
	
	
		
		
	


	




. 

[/ QUOTE ]

What truck is it and where did you find it?  I would love to find something with a longer wheelbase as well as something heavier and more powerful than a Range Rover but trucks in the UK seem to be weenie little things!


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## SpruceRI (29 November 2008)

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
 have I just embarrassed myself by getting it all totally wrong??.... 

[/ QUOTE ]


That said there are certain motorways now fitted with dynamic weighing equipment built into the surface of the road, the ticket just arrives in the post.  So, you've all been warned! 

[/ QUOTE ]

How does this on-road weighing equipment work?

How does 'the road' know that I'm in a Daihatsu Fourtrak towing 3000kg which is within my limit, when the Shogun behind me, also towing 3000kg has a weight limit of 2800kg?


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## Tia (29 November 2008)

I have a 6 Litre Dodge Ram crewcab pick-up truck.  
	
	
		
		
	


	




  Does about 10 to the gallon not towing, does less, towing  
	
	
		
		
	


	




, however, I do have it licenced to tow my big American trailer fully laden which it does easily so well worth the spendy running costs.


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## perfect11s (29 November 2008)

How does this on-road weighing equipment work?

How does 'the road' know that I'm in a Daihatsu Fourtrak towing 3000kg which is within my limit, when the Shogun behind me, also towing 3000kg has a weight limit of 2800kg? 

[/ QUOTE ]

There are sensors built in to the road and cameras that read number plates linked to a computer daterbase.. I think its more geared to HGVs but not sure  The other thing they can do is link the weight sensors to a speed camera so hgvs are  done for exceeding 40 mph on A roads they are in use localy to me on the A556 Knutsford 
	
	
		
		
	


	




 and common in other parts of the UK


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## Roasted Chestnuts (29 November 2008)

That is interesting.................

Hmmmmm where did you get that from please????

Nikki xxx


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## perfect11s (29 November 2008)

Hi  look up VOSA and i think they call it WIMS


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## Mooch (29 November 2008)

I've got a Ssangyong Rexton  (a Merc ML in sheeps clothing basically), it has a 3.5 tonne tow limit and that is why I got it!  
	
	
		
		
	


	





I've got a 510 and a 17.2 and a 15.3, so I knew I had to have a car with a big towing weight.


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