# Channel 4 8.30 tonight



## Boxers (7 January 2013)

REMINDER:


A programme called 'Horse Hoarders' about an elderly man who has amassed 52 mostly untamed horses on his land and is struggling to care for them.


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## luckyoldme (7 January 2013)

thats one for me to watch!!!!!!! The old man is back to work and i have full control of the remote till friday!


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## cindydog (7 January 2013)

Taping it just in case O/h interrupts at anytime...


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## Boxers (7 January 2013)

Bump

Don't forget to watch.


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## Fimbacob (7 January 2013)

I was gonna mention this! Hope its not too difficult to watch!


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## Bexy_86 (7 January 2013)

My non horsey OH has set the reminder for me! Think he is coming round to my horsey ways xD


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## Boxers (7 January 2013)

Bump again.

It's about to start


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## LearnerLou (7 January 2013)

Tuned in!


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## helen75 (7 January 2013)

Thanks! Was getting bored of Corrie!! xx


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## Tiffany (7 January 2013)

I'm watching


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## guido16 (7 January 2013)

What a knob he is.


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## LaurenBay (7 January 2013)

My family didn't want to watch it. But I have recorded it, so will catch up at the weekend


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## LittleBlackMule (7 January 2013)

Is this the one where the RSPCA waded in all guns blazing (any publicity is good publicity after all ), and the guy killed himself over it? 
If so I'm not sure I want to watch..


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## Holly Hocks (7 January 2013)

guido16 said:



			What a knob he is.
		
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Actually I don't think he is.....


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## Laafet (7 January 2013)

Am laughing along with that old bloke laughing at the RSPCA! Two hours for a dart to work is ridiculous though. I feel for people like him, he seems to care and is not asking for hand outs, the numbers just are out of control and a more tactful approach needed.


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## Holly Hocks (7 January 2013)

LittleBlackMule said:



			Is this the one where the RSPCA waded in all guns blazing (any publicity is good publicity after all ), and the guy killed himself over it? 
If so I'm not sure I want to watch..
		
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No, I think you're thinking of the ones in Cumbria....


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## Devonshire dumpling (7 January 2013)

RSPCA are such knobs

Perhaps they could be constructive and diplomatic and ask him to look after them with their help, volunteer work


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## Springy (7 January 2013)

Holly Hocks said:



			Actually I don't think he is.....
		
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I dont I think he is 

He is overun and they could help him by gelding etc rather than just prosecuting...

Notice RSPCA useless he can do more than them in less time.

And they dont look 'emeciated' Ive seen worse horses that the RSCPA wont help with...


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## tankgirl1 (7 January 2013)

Laafet said:



			Am laughing along with that old bloke laughing at the RSPCA! Two hours for a dart to work is ridiculous though. I feel for people like him, he seems to care and is not asking for hand outs, the numbers just are out of control and a more tactful approach needed.
		
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This ^^ And hopefully he will get/has got the help he needs as a result of this programme


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## Bigbenji (7 January 2013)

I think this is going to upset me 

So far a lonely old man who loves his horses. I see horses being fed, hay and yet to see any looking poor 

Take it things have just got out of hand numbers wise. RSPCA jumping on a nice story again then. 

Poor man needs help for himself


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## ItsJem (7 January 2013)

He's not a knob...


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## guesstimation (7 January 2013)

I can't believe how inept the RSPCA were loading that pony!  They need some wild pony handling lessons!  I've loaded many over the years together and separated from herd like that certainly never needed a dart gun just a good plan and prep!


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## tankgirl1 (7 January 2013)

Springy said:



			I dont I think he is 

He is overun and they could help him by gelding etc rather than just prosecuting...

Notice RSPCA useless he can do more than them in less time.

And they dont look 'emeciated' Ive seen worse horses that the RSCPA wont help with...
		
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The horses don't look too bad tbh


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## guido16 (7 January 2013)

Holly Hocks said:



			Actually I don't think he is.....
		
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Oh well, I do. How many colts running with mares? 5 seriously Ill horses? Not wormed!

No, I do not feel sorry for him. Totally negligent in my view. 
So he feeds them. Big deal.  farrier? Nope. Littlestar would be appalled.


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## FfionWinnie (7 January 2013)

Is it worth me getting off the couch to switch the tv on


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## cold_feet (7 January 2013)

^^^
This.


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## AMH (7 January 2013)

The 'sickly black colt' ran everyone ragged and then took 2 hours to succumb to tranqs... Hmm, very sickly


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## Chestnutmare (7 January 2013)

Seems the death of his daughter has lead him down the spiral that's got out of control the horses obviously need rehoming but he doesn't live very well either poor old man actually needs a hand again in life


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## Goldenstar (7 January 2013)

FfionWinnie said:



			Is it worth me getting off the couch to switch the tv on 

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Yes , but it's going to sad.
He's lonely damaged and hiding behind these horses .


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## guesstimation (7 January 2013)

Agree laafet, surely helping and educating would be better long term, castrate so as not to keep adding to the problem and make it more manageable for him, if he would allow....


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## MurphysMinder (7 January 2013)

Whilst not the conditions I would keep horses in they all look okay.  Love the RSPCA bod in camouflage to dart the pony, was that really necessary.  Tbh what concerns me more is the plaintive howling of a dog/dogs in the background, wonder if the RSPCA checked that out.


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## cold_feet (7 January 2013)

Springy said:



			I dont I think he is 

He is overun and they could help him by gelding etc rather than just prosecuting...

Notice RSPCA useless he can do more than them in less time.

And they dont look 'emeciated' Ive seen worse horses that the RSCPA wont help with...
		
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This!


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## Partridg3 (7 January 2013)

I didn't see any massively long hooves. I saw many happy horses in natural conditions but with too many colts and too much breeding. The RSPCA should be helping him keep what he can and monitor


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## Devonshire dumpling (7 January 2013)

I find him very endearing, poor man!  I wish they could assist him, and let him run the show in rehoming them........


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## stencilface (7 January 2013)

Don't see why they don't provide him with the tools to care correctly? Seems he knows what he's doing in a fashion, but doesn't have food for himself so wormers etc aren't exactly going to be a priority


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## Holly Hocks (7 January 2013)

Springy said:



			I dont I think he is 

And they dont look 'emeciated' Ive seen worse horses that the RSCPA wont help with...
		
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That was the bit that got me - when they said the RSPCA were coming in because the horses were emaciated - and in the background, all I could see were rather up to weight horses, grazing on pretty decent grazing! 

RSPCA - Real Society of Pricks, Cocks and Ar$3holes.  

Diplomacy and tact really passed them by, didn't it?


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## Delicious_D (7 January 2013)

Poor man, has a good heart but no social back up. I question, where are the social services here? The horses arent kept in the best of conditions and clearly, his health is failing (whether he believes so or not).

Its a very sad version of a freak show, uncomfortable viewing.

As for the RSPCA, showing themselves off the be the muppets they are!


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## ribbons (7 January 2013)

No he's not a knob. He's struggling yes, he's neglecting himself yes. 
I know who the knobs are.


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## figgy (7 January 2013)

I feel really sorry for him :-(


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## Laafet (7 January 2013)

Since he appeared on film to be quite happy for the colts to be taken away to be sold then it appears that he is quite happy to accept some sort of help.


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## Springy (7 January 2013)

However...

who the hell breaks a horse in by pulling on its tail!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## tankgirl1 (7 January 2013)

Who is the Michelle woman? Just tried to drag a horse onto a trailer by yanking on its tail?


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## Honey08 (7 January 2013)

I'm finding it very sad.  He seems a nice bloke.  The horses had a huge area, shelter, feed, looked well.  He just needs some help.


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## AMH (7 January 2013)

Does she know what the hell she's doing? Did that horse have a rope crossed over its poll?!


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## tankgirl1 (7 January 2013)

Springy said:



			However...

who the hell breaks a horse in by pulling on its tail!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
		
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Exactly! Who the hell is she??!?


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## Springy (7 January 2013)

RSCPA missed that poorly one then


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## Holly Hocks (7 January 2013)

Springy said:



			RSCPA missed that poorly one then 

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That's EXACTLY what my OH just said - and he's not really that horsey!


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## tankgirl1 (7 January 2013)

She looks like a silly cow who just wants airtime


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## Star_Chaser (7 January 2013)

RSCPA should be ashamed having to dart that pony twice


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## Laafet (7 January 2013)

tankgirl1 said:



			Who is the Michelle woman? Just tried to drag a horse onto a trailer by yanking on its tail?
		
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She is rum one, but seriously you would see a lot of that at the sales both TBs and non TBs. Not saying it is right. 
He does really need some help, especially as he is getting more horses as the programme goes on.


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## DEEDEE83 (7 January 2013)

Apparently TB are killers now!


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## Bigbenji (7 January 2013)

Holly Hocks said:



			That was the bit that got me - when they said the RSPCA were coming in because the horses were emaciated - and in the background, all I could see were rather up to weight horses, grazing on pretty decent grazing! 

RSPCA - Real Society of Pricks, Cocks and Ar$3holes.  

Diplomacy and tact really passed them by, didn't it?
		
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Blooming well said!

He really needs help for his mental health I think.


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## ILuvCowparsely (7 January 2013)

only just found this will go watch +1
 thanx for this


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## Springy (7 January 2013)

Hmm easily solved

1. geld colts to stop breeding...
2. sell some...
3. use the money from selling them to worm and treat the rest..
4. Bring numbers down to about 10....

Educate ??


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## guido16 (7 January 2013)

Yes, what a nice old man, has colts, brings more TB colts, one healthy foal ends up dead. Yup, what a lovely man.


KNOB


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## JVB (7 January 2013)

How annoying is she!


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## tankgirl1 (7 January 2013)

Maybe I was a bit harsh on the Michelle woman - but she still doesn't sit right with me.


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## adamntitch (7 January 2013)

DEEDEE83 said:



			Apparently TB are killers now!
		
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she said could and i would think i tb stallion could kill a foal if it wanted to


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## AMH (7 January 2013)

Very annoying!


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## Ernie2001 (7 January 2013)

The RSPCA need to employ people with a tiny bit of horse sense  seems ridiculous. The man just needs help as he seems compliant to help the horses. Typical RSPCA annoying people when the situation is not desperate yet all these farms they find with horses walking amoung dead where were they then before it got to that state!


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## Holly Hocks (7 January 2013)

Springy said:



			Hmm easily solved

1. geld colts to stop breeding...
2. sell some...
3. use the money from selling them to worm and treat the rest..
4. Bring numbers down to about 10....

Educate ??
		
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Tell you what Springers - I don't often agree with you, but you're right on the mark tonight!


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## Springy (7 January 2013)

Holly Hocks said:



			Tell you what Springers - I don't often agree with you, but you're right on the mark tonight! 

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Oh Im good sometimes


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## Laafet (7 January 2013)

ditto Springers but the problem with someone like him is that he clearly has mental issues and unless these are resolved then he will continue to hoard.


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## Goldenstar (7 January 2013)

tankgirl1 said:



			Maybe I was a bit harsh on the Michelle woman - but she still doesn't sit right with me.
		
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At least she's got off her backside and is trying to improve things, yes she's "organising " but it's people like her in a community that gets things done.


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## Highlands (7 January 2013)

+ 1 it as just had to out bedding away


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## DEEDEE83 (7 January 2013)

I am sure it could, it was just her seeming to imply it was deadly because it was a tb as opposed to a cob. Such a sad situation, I dont agree he is a knob he needs help but the RSPCA are in it for the glory.


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## Springy (7 January 2013)

Oh is that it......


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## Laafet (7 January 2013)

Gosh that was short! Not really resolved at all.


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## Honey08 (7 January 2013)

Is that it!  Needs a second program.


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## hairycob (7 January 2013)

Can't help feeling she is doing far more of practical good than the RSPCA but unless the guy gets some help with his mental health she has an uphill battle.


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## Bigbenji (7 January 2013)

guido16 said:



			Yes, what a nice old man, has colts, brings more TB colts, one healthy foal ends up dead. Yup, what a lovely man.


KNOB
		
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I would say the guy has issues due to the death of his daughter. People can't help mental illness you know.

Sometimes you have to look at the bigger picture. Life isn't black and white.

If that is the worst suffering you have seen with horses you have been very lucky.


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## Archangel (7 January 2013)

Ffs, why keep asking for details about his daughter.  They should mind their own business


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## tallyho! (7 January 2013)

He's not a knob, just a very sad and lonely man who needs help! 

Applause for Michelle! Good on you girl! You have a heart asa big as those welsh mountains.


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## grandmaweloveyou (7 January 2013)

Bloody poxy ****** rspca. I live in the road by their HO & all I see is posh cars n private numberplates n theyre wasting money on a court case instead of donating wormers and gelding etc. Try helping the bloke out by directing ss to him cos he needs it more than those loved horses....but he should not have taken on the 10 tbs!!


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## guesstimation (7 January 2013)

I do just wish they'd come up with something forcing people not to have colts/stallions!  Would help RSPCA long term with less numbers going their way.  RSPCA desperately need some horse handling training for these situations or call redwings for help they are amazing with the wild ones


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## LittleBlackMule (7 January 2013)

Well that was frustrating.
Instead of farting about trying to sell his horses, that woman should just whip their balls off while she has them at her yard. Problem solved..


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## Star_Chaser (7 January 2013)

tallyho! said:



			He's not a knob, just a very sad and lonely man who needs help! 

Applause for Michelle! Good on you girl! You have a heart asa big as those welsh mountains.
		
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Afraid I have to agree, although why is he having a bath outside!!  Surely one of them could have let him have one in their homes   RSPCA are shocking totally out of their depth honestly just don't have a good word to say about them which is such a shame because they have lost their way from their roots too much money not enough sense.

Shame he doesn't live closer to me I have time on my hands don't mind cleaning and would soon have that house ship shape so he can at least have a roof over his head.  I was expecting fields knee deep in horse poo, horses in need of more than just worming and castration etc.  Short program hope he gets buyers for his other horses so they are at more manageable levels and I really hope that he gets the support that he needs.


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## Goldenstar (7 January 2013)

Laafet said:



			Gosh that was short! Not really resolved at all.
		
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From experiance I can say that often exactly how it is really really difficult stuff to deal with.


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## NoCollection (7 January 2013)

tallyho! said:



			He's not a knob, just a very sad and lonely man who needs help! 

Applause for Michelle! Good on you girl! You have a heart asa big as those welsh mountains.
		
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Seconded. She is doing something about it, in very practicaL and effective ways. Loved the bath in the woods!


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## JJones (7 January 2013)

I just feel so sorry for him, his love of horses is obvious though and thank god he has a neighbour like Michelle. (ok she was pulling a horses tail to get it to move but they do that to sheep and cows alot!)


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## guesstimation (7 January 2013)

Just pretty much said what you said to my oh, he was off on one so pointed out mental health is definitely not black and white there's other issues, he needs help too living in that house, its a sad situation from every aspect,.  I've seen horses in far worse than his sadly


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## guido16 (7 January 2013)

Bigbenji said:



			I would say the guy has issues due to the death of his daughter. People can't help mental illness you know.

Sometimes you have to look at the bigger picture. Life isn't black and white.

If that is the worst suffering you have seen with horses you have been very lucky.
		
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First point, don't judge me, you don't know me.

Second point, who says that is the worst suffering I have ever seen?

This is a forum. We agree to disagree. Don't feckin patronise me. Bad move.


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## Dobiegirl (7 January 2013)

MurphysMinder said:



			Whilst not the conditions I would keep horses in they all look okay.  Love the RSPCA bod in camouflage to dart the pony, was that really necessary.  Tbh what concerns me more is the plaintive howling of a dog/dogs in the background, wonder if the RSPCA checked that out.
		
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I noticed this and couldnt understand why no-one responded to it. His living conditions in the house were appalling far worse than the horses, yet the horses were the main concern wtf. This poor old man needed help and thank goodness Michelle was helping him, who is going to buy those horses though in the current climate.


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## Jadey (7 January 2013)

The RSPCA need to employ people who have at least a little sense of animal husbandry! Where was the welfare consideration when they darted that horse?! The owner should have been involved in the whole operation. He clearly had an amazing relationship with his horses in that herd. Michelle was doing but helping him, which clearly could not be said for the RSPCA or his neighbours. All he needed was some good advice and a little help. How did the court proceedings benefit anyone?!


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## Holly Hocks (7 January 2013)

Michelle appears to be doing her best in frustrating circumstances - she is around the same age as his deceased daughter, so he possibly sees her as his surrogate daughter.

As for mental issues, why do people always assume that because someone doesn't conform to society's ideals that the person has mental issues?  I love this poem and hope that when I get old I will be an eccentric old lady:  Have a read, it's fantastic....

When I am an old woman I shall wear purple
With a red hat which doesn't go, and doesn't suit me.
And I shall spend my pension on brandy and summer gloves
And satin sandals, and say we've no money for butter.
I shall sit down on the pavement when I'm tired
And gobble up samples in shops and press alarm bells
And run my stick along the public railings
And make up for the sobriety of my youth.
I shall go out in my slippers in the rain
And pick flowers in other people's gardens
And learn to spit.

You can wear terrible shirts and grow more fat
And eat three pounds of sausages at a go
Or only bread and pickle for a week
And hoard pens and pencils and beermats and things in boxes.

But now we must have clothes that keep us dry
And pay our rent and not swear in the street
And set a good example for the children.
We must have friends to dinner and read the papers.

But maybe I ought to practice a little now?
So people who know me are not too shocked and surprised
When suddenly I am old, and start to wear purple.


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## Honey08 (7 January 2013)

Bigbenji said:



			I would say the guy has issues due to the death of his daughter. People can't help mental illness you know.

Sometimes you have to look at the bigger picture. Life isn't black and white.

If that is the worst suffering you have seen with horses you have been very lucky.
		
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tallyho! said:



			He's not a knob, just a very sad and lonely man who needs help! 

Applause for Michelle! Good on you girl! You have a heart asa big as those welsh mountains.
		
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This and this.

There are a lot worse horse dotted around the country.  At least he had Michelle trying to organise him and the horses.


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## weebarney (7 January 2013)

Holly Hocks said:



			Michelle appears to be doing her best in frustrating circumstances - she is around the same age as his deceased daughter, so he possibly sees her as his surrogate daughter.

As for mental issues, why do people always assume that because someone doesn't conform to society's ideals that the person has mental issues?  I love this poem and hope that when I get old I will be an eccentric old lady:  Have a read, it's fantastic....

When I am an old woman I shall wear purple
With a red hat which doesn't go, and doesn't suit me.
And I shall spend my pension on brandy and summer gloves
And satin sandals, and say we've no money for butter.
I shall sit down on the pavement when I'm tired
And gobble up samples in shops and press alarm bells
And run my stick along the public railings
And make up for the sobriety of my youth.
I shall go out in my slippers in the rain
And pick flowers in other people's gardens
And learn to spit.

You can wear terrible shirts and grow more fat
And eat three pounds of sausages at a go
Or only bread and pickle for a week
And hoard pens and pencils and beermats and things in boxes.

But now we must have clothes that keep us dry
And pay our rent and not swear in the street
And set a good example for the children.
We must have friends to dinner and read the papers.

But maybe I ought to practice a little now?
So people who know me are not too shocked and surprised
When suddenly I am old, and start to wear purple.
		
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mint!


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## cold_feet (7 January 2013)

I agre with Holly Hocks.  Why can't he live as he wants to?   Just because he is different doesn't mean he is wrong.  Deal with the horses, but if he is happy living as he is let him alone.


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## Boxers (7 January 2013)

Holly Hocks said:



			That was the bit that got me - when they said the RSPCA were coming in because the horses were emaciated - and in the background, all I could see were rather up to weight horses, grazing on pretty decent grazing! 

RSPCA - Real Society of Pricks, Cocks and Ar$3holes.  

Diplomacy and tact really passed them by, didn't it?
		
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THIS ^^^^^^

If the RSPCA spent the money they used to prosecute him on wormers and gelding and maybe some volunteers to help out, it would be money well spent.


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## Springy (7 January 2013)

Boxers said:



			If the RSPCA spent the money they used to prosecute him on wormers and gelding and maybe some volunteers to help out, it would be money well spent.
		
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Far to sensible for the RSPCA that!!!

Like he said they are meant to be edcuated people clearly they arent


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## tankgirl1 (7 January 2013)

Currently sat munching on a blue baseball cap re michelle.....


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## Star_Chaser (7 January 2013)

Nice article in the local papers online, Says Michelle Crowther, chair of the North East Wales Bridleways Association. 

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/n...e-pensioner-who-hoards-horses-91466-32547091/


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## ribbons (7 January 2013)

Agree tallyho,
Sad old chap that could do with some help. He's getting more from Michelle than the useless RSPCA.

I also have to say they are some pretty clever clogs idiots on this forum. As someone else said, if that's the worst animal neglect you've seen you've been very lucky.
I have seen 100 times worse abuse of horses from wealthy idiots in the name of fluffy wuffy lunatics who treat them as oversized pets and ruthless professional breeders trying to breed the one world champion whilst dumping the 100's that are not up to scratch. 
This guy needs a helping hand and a bit of organising, that's all. Looks like Michelle is getting things under control.


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## Holly Hocks (7 January 2013)

weebarney said:



			mint!
		
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It's wonderful isn't it - written by Jenny Joseph sometime in the 60s, I think.


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## tankgirl1 (7 January 2013)

tankgirl1 said:



			Currently sat munching on a blue baseball cap re michelle.....
		
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Eating my hat...


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## Tiffany (7 January 2013)

guido16 said:



			What a knob he is.
		
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His daughter was killed in a road accident and that's when his life went off the rails. He's obviously a kind, caring man who's love of horses as let his heart rule his head.

Personally I don't think that makes him a knob


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## mulberrymill (7 January 2013)

Yes the numbers were out of control, but they were all in good condition and appeared happy. There was grass and space and food. If the black colt was so sick it needed removing, why did it lead them a merry dance for 2 hours, can't have been that sick.
The main issue seems to be the indiscriminate breeding cos the colts weren't being castrated.

Good on Michelle for trying to help, but why isn't someone helping
Him, he obviously needs looking after far more than the horses.
Programme wasn't long enough and showed the RSPCA up in the light we have all come to expect from them, wouldn't give them the time of day and haven't for years.


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## Ibblebibble (7 January 2013)

interesting programme but not long enough!! RSPCA their usual useless selves 
Michelle may not have had the best technique in moving a feral pony but she certainly had got through to him and was doing far more to help than the RSPCA, they were certainly the only knobs in the programme!


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## weebarney (7 January 2013)

guido16 said:



			First point, don't judge me, you don't know me.

Second point, who says that is the worst suffering I have ever seen?

This is a forum. We agree to disagree. Don't feckin patronise me. Bad move.
		
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Didnt you just judge the horder man?


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## Springy (7 January 2013)

PLEASE!!! 
You can all disagree/agree without turning nasty with each other  we are adults!!!


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## KellyJoArnold (7 January 2013)

guido16 said:



			This is a forum. We agree to disagree. Don't feckin patronise me. Bad move.
		
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Dont patronise them (Hypocritical?), or you will simply make yourself look like an idiot. _Bad move.. _


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## weebarney (7 January 2013)

KellyJoArnold said:



			Dont patronise them (Hypocritical?), or you will simply make yourself look like an idiot. _Bad move.. _

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bit of a massively over the top defensive reaction wasnt it?


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## tallyho! (7 January 2013)

Springy said:



			PLEASE!!! 
You can all disagree/agree without turning nasty with each other  we are adults!!!
		
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What? Where's the fun in that? 

Don't worry springy, everyone fights here but then we all have a hug in the morning and all is forgotten


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## KellyJoArnold (7 January 2013)

weebarney said:



			bit of a massively over the top defensive reaction wasnt it?
		
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I wasnt being defensive? Her original comment wasnt aimed at me, But i'm pretty sure her post was massively over the top, and defensive.. Much more-so than this one..


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## weebarney (7 January 2013)

KellyJoArnold said:



			I wasnt being defensive? Her original comment wasnt aimed at me, But i'm pretty sure her post was massively over the top, and defensive.. Much more-so than this one.. 

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no not you, woops, that was aimed at the original 'dont judge me you dont know me comment'!


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## russianhorse (7 January 2013)

I must be hormonal because I cried 

Why thd frck couldn't the RSPCA leave him alone - and that frcking neighbour that reported him for cruelty. The one thing that truly makes him happy and they try to take if away from him 

The majority of those horses were in good condition. They had fields to graze in, he was feeding them etc.

It just made me sick - thank god for Michelle helping him - not like any of those feckers (RSPCA and the neighbours)


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## KellyJoArnold (7 January 2013)

weebarney said:



			no not you, woops, that was aimed at the original 'dont judge me you dont know me comment'!
		
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Oh, i was gonna say! lol.. I did wonder


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## Adopter (7 January 2013)

What a sad situation.  Have to admire Michelle for taking action and gaining his trust, it is the only way to improve the situation for him and his horses.  Removing colts, selling what she can to pay to worm etc seems a very practical approach to me.

So sad to see him reflecting on what he has lost, and none of us can be sure how we will react to such a loss.  

I do hope he gets support and not threats.  As others say horses were in better state than many we see, and if he was left with none he would have nothing left in his life.


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## emma.is (7 January 2013)

sad for all involved.


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## TrasaM (7 January 2013)

I'm finding this terribly sad. Michelle Crowley you are an amazing lady. And Clewd.. Sorry is that the old chaps name, I think I'd like you if we met.


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## Tiffany (7 January 2013)

One good thing about the RSPCA is that they are consistent IMO

They consistently turn up when there are TV cameras around and consistently prosecute rather than help and educate 

Their useless attempt at darting that pony would have stressed the poor thing out more than the life it was leading with their owner. 

The RSPCA really need to look at what the public think about them because they're the people who keep them going.


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## all about Romeo (7 January 2013)

AMH said:



			The 'sickly black colt' ran everyone ragged and then took 2 hours to succumb to tranqs... Hmm, very sickly
		
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That is exactly what I thought when I watched it!! 

Just watching the last of recorded olympia now


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## RainbowDash (7 January 2013)

Overall I found the programme un-settling. 

Most of the horses shown seemed in good condition - there were some beautiful animals. It was the fella I felt sorry for - He needs someone to take him on, look after him and get him work with horses he soo obviously loves.

I found the conditions he lived in heartbreaking but in some ways his devotion to the horses almost inspiring.

RSCPA weren't shown in their best light were they?


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## FionaM12 (7 January 2013)

RebelRebel said:



			Ffs, why keep asking for details about his daughter.  They should mind their own business 

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That's the bit that upset me. He said he didn't want to talk about her death but they carried on asking, made him tell them the details.


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## destiny11 (7 January 2013)

tallyho! said:



			He's not a knob, just a very sad and lonely man who needs help! 

Applause for Michelle! Good on you girl! You have a heart asa big as those welsh mountains.
		
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Very well said and totally agree.  Can't believe people thinks he's a 'knob' and she is annoying.  Life has obviously dealt him some harsh cards in life, poor man 
And she deserves a medal, how many people would try and help like she did, if there were more like her the world would be a much nicer place to live, instead of people who like to sit and judge and criticise


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## VOM (7 January 2013)

guido16 said:



			What a knob he is.
		
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Absolutely dont agree.



Laafet said:



			Am laughing along with that old bloke laughing at the RSPCA! Two hours for a dart to work is ridiculous though. I feel for people like him, he seems to care and is not asking for hand outs, the numbers just are out of control and a more tactful approach needed.
		
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Absolutely agree.



Springy said:



			I dont I think he is 

He is overun and they could help him by gelding etc rather than just prosecuting...

Notice RSPCA useless he can do more than them in less time.

And they dont look 'emeciated' Ive seen worse horses that the RSCPA wont help with...
		
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Yep, based on a letter he recived it would of been filmed Feb/March so the horses were coming out of winter looking pretty good. The land looked of good quality with good natural shelter. Don't think I saw any Ragwort. So the yard could do with cleaning up a bit not the end of the world at all. 



Goldenstar said:



			At least she's got off her backside and is trying to improve things, yes she's "organising " but it's people like her in a community that gets things done.
		
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This. I thought she came across well. 



tallyho! said:



			He's not a knob, just a very sad and lonely man who needs help! 

Applause for Michelle! Good on you girl! You have a heart asa big as those welsh mountains.
		
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Yep agree.


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## windand rain (7 January 2013)

Having seen this it reminded me of the newspaper report about the RSPCA losing it member to less than half the RSPB and they would soon be struggling for money due to expensive and political prosecutions. on the dog board on here.
I also watched by curiosity the rescue of the Highland ponies in Dallas Scotland shown initially on the BBC programme animals 24 I then watched the same rescue on Horse and country filmed by the WHW crew they could have been totally different cases the second film was caring, non dramatic all the horses were filmed kindly and compassionately
The BBC film of the RSPCA  was violent dramatic talked about the stress and how easily they could have killed each other in the crushes designed to help handle them.
WHW showed the horse herded into the crush, sedated, feet trimmed, gelded where appropriate and wormed without any drama or upset 
Just shows the motives behind each organisation in my view
The ponies circumstances were very similar to the gentleman on tonights show


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## TrasaM (7 January 2013)

Pity one of the DIY SOS type programs cant go in and help him out. All he needs is a hand up until he can get some control back in his life. Poor man.


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## Wiz201 (7 January 2013)

I felt sorry for him thinking that he had to spend £400 a month on feeding the horses and nothing for himself.


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## Moomin1 (7 January 2013)

Ernie2001 said:



			The RSPCA need to employ people with a tiny bit of horse sense  seems ridiculous. The man just needs help as he seems compliant to help the horses. Typical RSPCA annoying people when the situation is not desperate yet all these farms they find with horses walking amoung dead where were they then before it got to that state! 

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Err, do you not think that they are intervening BEFORE it gets that way in this instance?!  

Do you seriously think that those horses are being cared for by a responsible adult?!  Even that Michelle whoever on earth she is, says that there were sick and ill horses.  And she is 'on his side'!

As for him being compliant, are you serious?!!  Honestly??  He refused to help in loading the horses, meaning that he watched one of his 'well loved children' be darted and subjected to a damn lot more stress than if he had simply been helpful, for  the sake of his 'beloved' horses and helped to get them in!  Not only that, but he continues to get more and more horses, AND COMPLAINS THAT HE HAS TO SPEND THE PROCEEDS OF SOLD HORSES ON MAINTAINING THE WELFARE OF HIS REMAINING STOCK, RESULTING IN A DEAD FOAL.  

For those people who honestly think that this man should have been left with those horses, you quite frankly worry me, and yet you are the very people who would moan and moan and moan endlessly if these horses ended up suffering, dead and dying if the RSPCA didn't act. 

As for people saying 'ahh poor man, he just needs help getting his life on track'.  Open your eyes, are you so blinkered?!!  The man has had endless amount of help - which is exactly what the programme is showing, yet he STILL reverts back to his old ways.  Do you understand how hoarding works?!!

Just to also point out, to make sure that everyone is clear on the matter, it is A VET who decides whether those animals have suffered, and that vet decided that there were 18 counts of suffering caused by that man.  Anybody who thinks that is acceptable is a downright disgrace IMO.


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## Billabongchick (7 January 2013)

Boxers said:



			If the RSPCA spent the money they used to prosecute him on wormers and gelding and maybe some volunteers to help out, it would be money well spent.
		
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Exactly what we said after watching it. What a shame that the RSPCA has become so politicised and seemingly unable to educate and aid rather than punish.


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## Highlands (7 January 2013)

Feel sorry for him, he did at one time had some nice stock! Michelle you have the patience of a saint!


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## Flame_ (7 January 2013)

I've just put it on plus 1. I've got to say, I'm with Guido. What a knob.


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## Willowview (7 January 2013)

Just watched this and was very saddened by it. There were some aspects I didn't understand like why the man allowed the RSPCA to chase round the black colt for however long ending in it running round with a dart in its backside for 2 hours when he could have helped and saved the horse form suffering if he loves it so much?

Harsh as it may seem we have all seen the posts on this forum about poor breeding management and to me this case is no different the man was unrealistic about his horses and their welfare and I am glad some of the horses were taken away before further breeding happened. Owning any animal requires responsibility and if the owner is unable meet that requirement then sorry but the animals have to be put in the care of someone else.

It seems to me whilst he clearly loves his animals the fact he isn't totally ashamed at the RSPCA involvement shows something is missing. Whilst his personal issues go some way to justify the problem they don't provide a solution for it and therefore some form of action needed to be taken.


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## FionaM12 (7 January 2013)

hairycob said:



			Can't help feeling she is doing far more of practical good than the RSPCA but unless the guy gets some help with his mental health she has an uphill battle.
		
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Whether anyone thinks he has mental health problems or not, I very much doubt he'd accept medical help or treatment of any kind. He's dealt with his loss in his own way for a long time now. 

Things have clearly got a bit much for him but I would think with some effort put in to sort his house to just a basic hygienic standard, and some practical help with the horses, he'd do okay and so would they.

As for "Who is this Michelle woman?", I'd say she's just someone who's trying to do some good.


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## ladyt25 (7 January 2013)

I think it's very sad (just watching it now). A situation that's got out of control. I don't see any emaciated animals. Ok a foal died - that could be due to numerous causes. 52 horses, it's not unusual 1 could die/be killed is it really. That's just reality. Just becaiuse it's not how the majority of us may choose to keep horses doesn't mean they are suffering. They don't look to be.

All of you slating him have maybe never dealt with anyone who has suffered or is suffering mentail illness. That's what he screams to me of to be honest and I think he needs help. Michelle is the only one who's actually stepped in to assist him. I think if she wasn't there he'd been in even more of a mess. 

The RSPCA's gunho approach isn't exactly helpful! What are they prosecuting him for anyway??


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## Moomin1 (7 January 2013)

ladyt25 said:



			I think it's very sad (just watching it now). A situation that's got out of control. I don't see any emaciated animals. Ok a foal died - that could be due to numerous causes. 52 horses, it's not unusual 1 could die/be killed is it really. That's just reality. Just becaiuse it's not how the majority of us may choose to keep horses doesn't mean they are suffering. They don't look to be.

All of you slating him have maybe never dealt with anyone who has suffered or is suffering mentail illness. That's what he screams to me of to be honest and I think he needs help. Michelle is the only one who's actually stepped in to assist him. I think if she wasn't there he'd been in even more of a mess. 

The RSPCA's gunho approach isn't exactly helpful! What are they prosecuting him for anyway??
		
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They prosecuted him because he caused 18 counts of suffering to horses unnecessarily.  


For those people who talk about the fact that the RSPCA should have spent money on wormers etc rather than prosecuting him, come off it, he's a hoarde. They can worm, then what happens in another six months when he doesn't do it again, and again, and again?!!  Do they just stand by and fund this man's neglected horses for the rest of his life whilst he continues to gather more and more colts and let them breed?!  Bearing in mind of course, that since he was given a six month suspended sentence, he STILL keeps getting more horses, and 22 still remain running free.  So that's his attitude for you...doesn't even change when he is dealt with by the law.  Do you honestly think he will change by being given a few wormers?!!


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## VOM (7 January 2013)

Possibly going to piss people off (which actually isnt my intention) but I think if I were a horse I would rather live there than cooped up in a stable 23 hours a day overloaded with matching rugs, being kicked and pulled round a sand arena then poked and prodded because I'm not going right for my owner. 

BTW I'm no tree hugger and don't follow any NH tribe.


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## ILuvCowparsely (7 January 2013)

Tiffany said:



			His daughter was killed in a road accident and that's when his life went off the rails. He's obviously a kind, caring man who's love of horses as let his heart rule his head.

Personally I don't think that makes him a knob
		
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Agree  they should be there to help no hinder.

 I feel sorry for the guy, his life fell apart when his daughter died, lots of people resort to being recluse , going on depressants etc. 

 He maybe guilty of cruelty due to kindness,(no worming) that is the trouble with hording its like  a  obsession to help people who hoard get so  into helping they begin to lose sanity or reality.

 I hope they get him to a safe number he can care for and still have enough for himself


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## KellyJoArnold (7 January 2013)

Moomin1 said:



			They prosecuted him because he caused 18 counts of suffering to horses unnecessarily.  

Do those people who talk about the fact that the RSPCA should have spent money on wormers etc rather than prosecuting him, come off it, he's a hoarder, they can worm, then what happens in another six months when he doesn't do it again, and again, and again?!!  Do they just stand by and fund this man's neglected horses for the rest of his life whilst he continues to gather more and more colts and let them breed?!
		
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This.. 

Although he may have fed them, what looked like plain old chaff and sugarbeet, where was the shoeing? worming? Vaccinations? Daily care? 
He had colts running with mares, and foals, possibly inbreeding? 

You can shower horses with as much love as you want, but it still doesnt mean they are happy or healthy!?


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## Flame_ (7 January 2013)

Does anyone watch the American Hoarders program? I saw one with some mad bint who, when they cleared her disaster of a house out, had loads of dead cats matted into the floor amidst the rubbish. 

There really should be more that can be done, and sooner, to get animals away from people who aren't all there. Tough luck if they love them, if they can't look after themselves, let alone the animals, the animals should be removed.


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## ladyt25 (7 January 2013)

It said 6 counts but they didn't say what 'suffering' he had caused. I have seen worse welfare cases and known of cases where horses have no food or water are ACTUALLY emaciated yet the RSPCA don't bother doing anything about it. All seems very unbalanced to me.

Maybe they've not shown us the full story here. I still think the man himself should be the priority, he needs the help. He wasn't objecting to them removing his horses so he had at least realised he had taken on too much.

How much did the court case cost I wonder?


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## Bigbenji (7 January 2013)

guido16 said:



			First point, don't judge me, you don't know me. _At what point have I judged you? You called the guy a knob when, in my opinion, this isn't the case of someone who just can't be ar$ed but someone who is mentally ill. I was saying, and stand by what I said, that sometimes you have to take in the bigger picture.  _
Second point, who says that is the worst suffering I have ever seen? [I]I said IF then you are very lucky. I didn't see any horse that would of worried me going on body condition score. Too short a program to know all the in's and out's of what is or isn't done with worming/feet etc so I am going on what I saw. [/I]This is a forum. We agree to disagree. _No problem disagreeing with you on this one_ Don't feckin patronise me. _Sorry where in my post below did I do this?[/__I] Bad move. What on earth is that supposed to mean?[/QUOTE]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bigbenji  
I would say the guy has issues due to the death of his daughter. People can't help mental illness you know.

Sometimes you have to look at the bigger picture. Life isn't black and white.

If that is the worst suffering you have seen with horses you have been very lucky. 

This is a case where RSPCA would do better to help educate rather than use threats and courts._

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## KellyJoArnold (7 January 2013)

VOM said:



			Possibly going to piss people off (which actually isnt my intention) but I think if I were a horse I would rather live there than cooped up in a stable 23 hours a day overloaded with matching rugs, being kicked and pulled round a sand arena then poked and prodded because I'm not going right for my owner. 

BTW I'm no tree hugger and don't follow any NH tribe.
		
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Full of worms, possible overgrown hooves, popping out a foal every year because there is no control over the breeding. and carrying god knows how many diseases..... 

Yes, im sure you would much rather that....


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## Moomin1 (7 January 2013)

Bigbenji said:



			Quote:
Originally Posted by Bigbenji  
I would say the guy has issues due to the death of his daughter. People can't help mental illness you know.

Sometimes you have to look at the bigger picture. Life isn't black and white.

If that is the worst suffering you have seen with horses you have been very lucky. 

This is a case where RSPCA would do better to help educate rather than use threats and courts.
		
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I think you have hit the nail on the head - the whole picture has not been portrayed.


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## all about Romeo (7 January 2013)

MurphysMinder said:



			Tbh what concerns me more is the plaintive howling of a dog/dogs in the background, wonder if the RSPCA checked that out.
		
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Also what I was wondering the whole way through!


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## Honey08 (7 January 2013)

ladyt25 said:



			It said 6 counts but they didn't say what 'suffering' he had caused. I have seen worse welfare cases and known of cases where horses have no food or water are ACTUALLY emaciated yet the RSPCA don't bother doing anything about it. All seems very unbalanced to me.

Maybe they've not shown us the full story here. I still think the man himself should be the priority, he needs the help. He wasn't objecting to them removing his horses so he had at least realised he had taken on too much.

How much did the court case cost I wonder?
		
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I don't think they've shown the full story either.  It was a stupidly short, unfinished tv programme really.  

They will probably get the herd down to about ten and then they'll all get laminitis on all that grass.


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## Jazzy B (7 January 2013)

Michelle a girl who wears her heart on her sleeve and looking for solutions and organising - good on your girl!!!! 

A sad old man who fundamentally has his heart in the right place! 

RSPCA, again nothing you would do would ever amaze me.  Watching the "experts" load that black pony into the trailer was disgusting!!! The way they darted that pony was disgusting!!! Oh RSPCA you are so quick to prosecute.  Why don't you go and find some proper cases of cruelty carried out by proper mean ********, and start seeing the bigger picture!!!  If nothing else, RSPCA you have highlighted again your total inefficiency of dealing with anything!


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## FionaM12 (7 January 2013)

ladyt25 said:



			It said 6 counts but they didn't say what 'suffering' he had caused. I have seen worse welfare cases and known of cases where horses have no food or water are ACTUALLY emaciated yet the RSPCA don't bother doing anything about it. All seems very unbalanced to me.

Maybe they've not shown us the full story here. I still think the man himself should be the priority, he needs the help. He wasn't objecting to them removing his horses so he had at least realised he had taken on too much.

How much did the court case cost I wonder?
		
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I agree. I suspect there's much more to this than this film shows. Film makers have an agenda and deliberately don't tell the whole story.


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## Daytona (7 January 2013)

I'm shocked people are slagging that auld man off.

I'm ashamed of the RSPCA taking him to court for animal abuse, he clearly loves those horse.

Yes things have got out of control with regards to numbers, and perhaps he should of seeked help but how many old lonely people in the UK sit at home alone suffering in silence as not to bother anyone, be it because they have no heating or the likes of him who life has go down the pan, all clearly spanning from a very traumatic time in his life , burying his child..!

Those of you calling him a knob, perhaps if you have the misfortune to bury your child - we will just sit there going oh well they just a knob anyway.

The animal charity should be offering there support to this man not dragging him through the mud.

As for lady, well at least she has a heart big enough to care and at least attempt to help him, how many here would just turn a blind eye thinking well it's not my problem, or skuttle off the the animal welfare to report rather than help him.

To me he came across as a kind auld man who has lost a love one and replaced the hole in his heart with one of the kindest sensitive  creatures on this earth.


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## Rebels (7 January 2013)

Surely following that program there should be a way that he can be helped? Priority being to reduce numbers pref to mares only and prevent him taking any more on. Michelle was the only person helping him, she may not do it the BHS way but she was managing to advertise fairly difficult to move on animals and then move them. Can't imagine the market is great for unhandled, randomly bred colts?


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## Moomin1 (7 January 2013)

How do any of you on here know that the RSPCA hadn't already given him endless amount of help prior to this?!  No, you don't.  

You should all surely know that the press are very good at editing stories.

Think outside the box before jumping on the hysteria bandwagon.


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## Dry Rot (7 January 2013)

As I understood it, both he and Michelle had got several ponies into an old dairy and had loaded them from there without any hassle. These ponies were sold to pay for wormer.

Does anyone here believe the RSPCA would have allowed, let alone had the humility to ask, anyone else to help load the ponies? The RSPCA are, after all, the "experts" and what could the owner they are about to take to court possibly know?

I thought Michelle was doing a great job. Clwyd seemed intelligent, genuinely caring, and with a sense of humour. He seemed to enjoy having the cameras there while he bathed in the wood!

As you get older (and I am older that Clwyd), there is enormous temptation to procrastinate. I can quite understand how the death of his daughter would have unbalanced him and taken away his purpose in life. He obviously loved his horses but had lost control. Michelle was doing a great job getting things together.

I wonder who paid for castrating the colts? Maybe the RSPCA did some good after all.

As for the death of the foal, who knows? Where you have livestock, you will have dead stock. It is a fact of farming. As the old shepherds say, "Some are meant to die". Without an autopsy, no one can be blamed.

As for the rescue of the Highland ponies at Dallas, I was there and cannot praise the WHW enough. In that case, the owner had realised that he could no longer manage and had asked for help. He was also a top breeder in his day, and there were some beautiful ponies there. Where are the breed societies when things go wrong like this?


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## Holly Hocks (7 January 2013)

Donkey said:



			Michelle a girl who wears her heart on her sleeve and looking for solutions and organising - good on your girl!!!! 

A sad old man who fundamentally has his heart in the right place! 

RSPCA, again nothing you would do would ever amaze me.  Watching the "experts" load that black pony into the trailer was disgusting!!! The way they darted that pony was disgusting!!! Oh RSPCA you are so quick to prosecute.  Why don't you go and find some proper cases of cruelty carried out by proper mean ********, and start seeing the bigger picture!!!  If nothing else, RSPCA you have highlighted again your total inefficiency of dealing with anything!
		
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***Applauds***


Auld Lang Syne said:



			I'm shocked people are slagging that auld man off.

I'm ashamed of the RSPCA taking him to court for animal abuse, he clearly loves those horse.

Yes things have got out of control with regards to numbers, and perhaps he should of seeked help but how many old lonely people in the UK sit at home alone suffering in silence as not to bother anyone, be it because they have no heating or the likes of him who life has go down the pan, all clearly spanning from a very traumatic time in his life , burying his child..!

Those of you calling him a knob, perhaps if you have the misfortune to bury your child - we will just sit there going oh well they just a knob anyway.

The animal charity should be offering there support to this man not dragging him through the mud.

As for lady, well at least she has a heart big enough to care and at least attempt to help him, how many here would just turn a blind eye thinking well it's not my problem, or skuttle off the the animal welfare to report rather than help him.

To me he came across as a kind auld man who has lost a love one and replaced the hole in his heart with one of the kindest sensitive  creatures on this earth.
		
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***Applauds again***


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## hairycob (7 January 2013)

TBH he reminds me of my late uncle who spent many years, even into his old age living in a tent/barn/garage wherever he could find shelter because he couldn't cope with normal life. Not an easy man to help at all. He could make temporary progress & then something would happen & he would basically run away. It struck me that being with the horses was possibly this man's way of running away. Prosecution won't change him.


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## Goldenstar (7 January 2013)

Moomin1 said:



			How do any of you on here know that the RSPCA hadn't already given him endless amount of help prior to this?!  No, you don't.  

You should all surely know that the press are very good at editing stories.

Think outside the box before jumping on the hysteria bandwagon.
		
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I am apsolutly sure that RSPCA and others will have a long history of interaction with this man.


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## FionaM12 (7 January 2013)

Moomin1 said:



			How do any of you on here know that the RSPCA hadn't already given him endless amount of help prior to this?!  No, you don't.  

You should all surely know that the press are very good at editing stories.

Think outside the box before jumping on the hysteria bandwagon.
		
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You do have a point. The film makers have their bias and want to show a good story. They go for manipulating an emotional reaction.

I found the film quite confusing as so much wasn't explained. I would like to have heard an interview with someone from the RSPCA for a start.


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## Moomin1 (7 January 2013)

Goldenstar said:



			I am apsolutly sure that RSPCA and others will have a long history of interaction with this man.
		
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Oh finally, someone with some sense that can actually see beyond the press! 

I am absolutely sure too Goldenstar!


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## Holly Hocks (7 January 2013)

Moomin1 said:



			How do any of you on here know that the RSPCA hadn't already given him endless amount of help prior to this?!  No, you don't.
		
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Well you clearly do, so why not tell us all about it?  
People can only comment on what they see - and what a lot of us saw is a man who appears to have done not a lot wrong, a friend trying to help, and a so called "animal welfare charity" acting out of all proportion.


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## erwina (7 January 2013)

Darn it, seen this too late, is it repeated?


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## Moomin1 (7 January 2013)

Holly Hocks said:



			Well you clearly do, so why not tell us all about it?  
People can only comment on what they see - and what a lot of us saw is a man who appears to have done not a lot wrong, a friend trying to help, and a so called "animal welfare charity" acting out of all proportion.
		
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It's not my place to be doing so.

Why don't you, or someone else, write to the RSPCA and ask?  There's a radical thought.


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## Stateside (7 January 2013)

What a nice old man I gladly give him a few quid but the rspca I would not give a bl##dy thing to. He needs help understanding the horses did not look at all bad, not ideal but for the money he had I think he has done a maverlous job.
His horse skill is brilliant if not by the book. The rspca should employ him to teach the stupid staff how the be horse aware and be around horses .
SHAME ON THE RSPCA .


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## Moomin1 (7 January 2013)

Stateside said:



			What a nice old man I gladly give him a few quid but the rspca I would not give a bl##dy thing to. He needs help understanding the horses did not look at all bad, not ideal but for the money he had I think he has done a maverlous job.
His horse skill is brilliant if not by the book. The rspca should employ him to teach the stupid staff how the be horse aware and be around horses .
SHAME ON THE RSPCA .
		
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Err, this is a man who was a prolific breeder, I am sure he knows what worming is.    He doesn't need 'educating'.

And if you think that his standard of care is acceptable, then that's worrying, because clearly a vet didn't, nor did a court of law.


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## singing dawg (7 January 2013)

erwina said:



			Darn it, seen this too late, is it repeated?
		
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I watched it on 4od


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## VOM (7 January 2013)

KellyJoArnold said:



			Full of worms, possible overgrown hooves, popping out a foal every year because there is no control over the breeding. and carrying god knows how many diseases..... 

Yes, im sure you would much rather that....
		
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Yes, living in a herd, running wild ish. Hum....like, I don't know a horse.


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## Holly Hocks (7 January 2013)

Moomin1 said:



			It's not my place to be doing so.

Why don't you, or someone else, write to the RSPCA and ask?  There's a radical thought.
		
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What, and attempt to get an honest answer ?  Now there's a radical thought...


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## Goldenstar (7 January 2013)

The truth is its extremely difficult to deal with animal hoarders a Michelle is exactly what is needed ,you need to deal with worming,  breeding ,foot care get the colts away and or cut get numbers down to manageable for the owner and you saw flashes in the old man when he was cleaning up the yard at Michelle of how difficult he can be.
And yes he needed his living conditions sorting out too so he was a little more comfortable it's a sad situation .


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## Flame_ (7 January 2013)

Auld Lang Syne said:



			To me he came across as a kind auld man who has lost a love one and replaced the hole in his heart with one of the kindest sensitive  creatures on this earth.
		
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Not _one_, there were 52 or so at one point weren't there? One horse to cuddle would be sweet (though a toy teddy would be better), horse collecting, unless you're a millionaire, is irresponsible and/or mental.

If the man wants to live in a field, fair play to him that's his choice, but animals need responsible owners and the horse world needs responsible breeders. That bloke is clearly neither.


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## Moomin1 (7 January 2013)

Holly Hocks said:



			What, and attempt to get an honest answer ?  Now there's a radical thought...
		
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Ok Holly Hocks, here's an alternative radical thought for you.  Go and request the information, as it's in the public domain!  So you could quite easily ask the court!


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## FionaM12 (7 January 2013)

I reacted on a emotional level watching the film, which is of course their intention. but now I've had time to think, Moomin has a point. It was a very biased short film which showed only a little of one side of the story. 

As I said before, I wish they'd at least interviewed the RSPCA for their side and some background.


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## Holly Hocks (7 January 2013)

FionaM12 said:



			I reacted on a emotional level watching the film, which is of course their intention. but now I've had time to think, Moomin has a point. It was a very biased short film which showed only a little of one side of the story. 

As I said before, I wish they'd at least interviewed the RSPCA for their side and some background.
		
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The RSPCA clearly didn't want to be interviewed - their faces were pixelated out....


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## Asha (7 January 2013)

Managed to watch a bit of this, and called in my hubby as i recognised the high street.

Turns out my hubby knew Clwyd many years ago, before his daughter died.
He and his friends would help collect the hay over the summer.

From the stories i have just listened to, he isnt a 'knob'.

Eccentric yes, but a knob, no.

The death of his daughter , in my hubbies opinion , has clearly had a devasting impact on his life. As it would for any of us.


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## FionaM12 (7 January 2013)

Holly Hocks said:



			The RSPCA clearly didn't want to be interviewed - their faces were pixelated out....
		
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How do you know that's why they were pixelated out?


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## Daytona (7 January 2013)

Flame_ perhaps he has a Extreamly large hole in his heart to fill..?

Have you ever lost a child..?? If not I guess you would not understand, only those who have been there can judge and grief makes people do strange things - yes even collecting 52 horses.

This man needs love , kindness support and help, not mocked and called a "dick"


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## Holly Hocks (7 January 2013)

FionaM12 said:



			How do you know that's why they were pixelled out? 

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Well they obviously didn't want to be identified, so they were hardly going to speak to the camera were they?

I agree a bit of background could have been provided, but like anything, we can only go on on what was shown as we can with any news program or documentary....


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## Shettie (7 January 2013)

Good on Michelle for trying to help him and by also trying to help him personally and as a friend. Looks like shes helped other before too

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/w...rain-pony-ruby-has-a-new-home-91466-29025412/


I won't comment too much on the rspca or the "state" of the horses. 
Iv'e seen alot lot worse, which they wouldn't come out to. Including the mare I rescued that couldn't even stand.


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## Moomin1 (7 January 2013)

FionaM12 said:



			How do you know that's why they were pixelled out? 

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Holly Hocks knows absolutely diddly squat.

Quite often this is done for privacy and safety aspects for the individual officer concerned.  It can be and is a dangerous job.

FWIW I don't agree that anybody should be called derogatory names on a forum.


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## Holly Hocks (7 January 2013)

Moomin1 said:



			Holly Hocks knows absolutely diddly squat.

Quite often this is done for privacy and safety aspects for the individual officer concerned.  It can be and is a dangerous job.

FWIW I don't agree that anybody should be called derogatory names on a forum.
		
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Moomin - you have no idea, but I have had in the past extensive dealings with this "charity" which calls itself the RSPCA - and I currently do a large proportion of court work - prosecuting.  If you would like to know more of my background, please feel free to PM me and I will tell you of my dealings and experiences....

I have not said that you know "diddly squat" (nice educated phrase there!) I know you have your own biased opinions and will defend the RSPCA to the hilt - I wouldn't expect anything else from you, but you have to appreciate that we all have different opinions and can express that freely should we choose....


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## Moomin1 (7 January 2013)

Holly Hocks said:



			Moomin - you have no idea, but I have had in the past extensive dealings with this "charity" which calls itself the RSPCA - and I currently do a large proportion of court work - prosecuting.  If you would like to know more of my background, please feel free to PM me and I will tell you of my dealings and experiences....

I have not said that you know "diddly squat" (nice educated phrase there!) I know you have your own biased opinions and will defend the RSPCA to the hilt - I wouldn't expect anything else from you, but you have to appreciate that we all have different opinions and can express that freely should we choose....
		
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Yes quite, I have never said anybody can't express their opinions have I?!

What I was saying is that you have no idea why the officer's faces where pixelled out.  You automatically insinuate it's because they have a hidden agenda and don't want identifying!  

They are individual people, with families, and children, and loved ones.  They are fully entitled not to be exposed on tv if they don't want.


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## Nic (7 January 2013)

guido16 said:



			First point, don't judge me, you don't know me.

Second point, who says that is the worst suffering I have ever seen?

This is a forum. We agree to disagree. Don't feckin patronise me. Bad move.
		
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Aggressive over reaction. 

We can only judge what we saw. An old man struggling with life. He doesn't feed or care for himself or make rational judgements.

Another case of the RSPCA pursuing a conviction for convictions sake, they have lost all perspective. 

If one woman can make such a difference to that man, the RSPCA should at the very least be able to equal that.


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## 1t34 (7 January 2013)

Only two points really 

Sad that as a society a man like Clwyd becomes so isolated and depressed (he said he didn't like the way his life had turned out) his only friends are his horses. A completely devastating event in his life has just left him spiraling downwards with inevitable a lonely end whist living in frankly squalid conditions. Where is his big society - ah that'll just be the lady who has done her best to help him with little or no support from others.

He is quite clearly a horseman who has a lot of knowledge, but he is breeding indiscriminately poor quality stock with not much of a future. They do need to be reduced and he should be prevented from breeding more. Why isn't his knowledge harnessed to good effect instead of him prosecuted because unfortunately society doesn't value people like Clywd and offer him those sort of opportunities.

Sad all round for me another lost life and potential and a whole heap of poorly bred ponies with little future.


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## Littlelegs (7 January 2013)

It's very hard to form a fully informed opinion, when large chunks of information was missing. Such as why did the foal die, how many others have in his care, why wasn't worming done sooner, what previous involvement has rspca had, what were the details of the charges & many more. 
  While I can't imagine the pain of losing a child, & don't want to try, I don't think its acceptable to say it excuses neglecting animals 24yrs later. Living in filth, not washing etc all are entirely his decision, & not one I'd criticize. But when you also allow animals to suffer, then I'm afraid people will judge you. Unfortunately many people do lose children, & if society then allowed them to break the law because of that for the rest of their lives then I think we'd be in a mess.


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## Moomin1 (7 January 2013)

Nic said:



			Aggressive over reaction. 

We can only judge what we saw. An old man struggling with life. He doesn't feed or care for himself or make rational judgements.

Another case of the RSPCA pursuing a conviction for convictions sake, they have lost all perspective. 

If one woman can make such a difference to that man, the RSPCA should at the very least be able to equal that.
		
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Make a difference?!!  She made very little difference other than being stuck continuously selling his horses which he continued to breed, into a market which is already brimming with unwanted horses and rescue centres at breaking point.  She didn't manage to stop him doing so, he still continued to get more and more and allowed the horses to breed.  It doesn't show how she helped his living conditions, and it doesn't show whether she is helping him to maintain the welfare of his horses.

The film is uninformative and biased.


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## brighteyes (7 January 2013)

erwina said:



			Darn it, seen this too late, is it repeated?
		
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4OD (online)


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## VOM (7 January 2013)

Nic said:



			Aggressive over reaction. 

We can only judge what we saw. An old man struggling with life. He doesn't feed or care for himself or make rational judgements.

Another case of the RSPCA pursuing a conviction for convictions sake, they have lost all perspective. 

If one woman can make such a difference to that man, the RSPCA should at the very least be able to equal that.
		
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I agree.


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## Moomin1 (7 January 2013)

Littlelegs said:



			It's very hard to form a fully informed opinion, when large chunks of information was missing. Such as why did the foal die, how many others have in his care, why wasn't worming done sooner, what previous involvement has rspca had, what were the details of the charges & many more. 
  While I can't imagine the pain of losing a child, & don't want to try, I don't think its acceptable to say it excuses neglecting animals 24yrs later. Living in filth, not washing etc all are entirely his decision, & not one I'd criticize. But when you also allow animals to suffer, then I'm afraid people will judge you. Unfortunately many people do lose children, & if society then allowed them to break the law because of that for the rest of their lives then I think we'd be in a mess.
		
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Thank god another person with sense!


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## brighteyes (7 January 2013)

I for one would like the full and unexpurgated version.  This was not it.


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## Nic (7 January 2013)

Moomin1 said:



			Make a difference?!!  She made very little difference other than being stuck continuously selling his horses which he continued to breed, into a market which is already brimming with unwanted horses and rescue centres at breaking point.  She didn't manage to stop him doing so, he still continued to get more and more and allowed the horses to breed.  It doesn't show how she helped his living conditions, and it doesn't show whether she is helping him to maintain the welfare of his horses.

The film is uninformative and biased.
		
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Whereas your views are entirely neutral?

And yes I'd say that she made an enormous difference to that man.

She had more success at controlling the number & care of the horses than the RSPCA did.


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## ponypilotmum (7 January 2013)

I don't often agree with moomin, and I never agree with the RSPCA but why did michelle sell the colts on? Why did she not ask for help with gelding the colts? I know that several charities WILL help, and there's a programme for the gelding of wild colts in wales. 

So why sell rubbish colts on to breed more rubbish colts?

Felt very sorry for the man, he;s clearly a nagsman through and through, just someone who's lost their way in life.


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## VOM (7 January 2013)

Moomin1 said:



			Make a difference?!!  She made very little difference other than being stuck continuously selling his horses which he continued to breed, into a market which is already brimming with unwanted horses and rescue centres at breaking point.  She didn't manage to stop him doing so, he still continued to get more and more and allowed the horses to breed.  It doesn't show how she helped his living conditions, and it doesn't show whether she is helping him to maintain the welfare of his horses.

The film is uninformative and biased.
		
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Didn't he start with about 50? Then got got to 22, then unbeknown to the lady he took ten for a friend then those went back, so down to 22 again. They seemed to be concentrating on removing the colts, therefore showing attempts to control the breeding.


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## Jools1234 (7 January 2013)

VOM said:



			Didn't he start with about 50? Then got got to 22, then unbeknown to the lady he took ten for a friend then those went back, so down to 22 again. They seemed to be concentrating on removing the colts, therefore showing attempts to control the breeding.
		
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i think from what moomin wrote i watched a different programme


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## FionaM12 (7 January 2013)

brighteyes said:



			I for one would like the full and unexpurgated version.  This was not it.
		
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Agreed.


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## Goldenstar (7 January 2013)

brighteyes said:



			I for one would like the full and unexpurgated version.  This was not it.
		
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It did give a feel for want it's like in these situations trying to find a way through that's gives the best result for the horses on the ground in complicated and difficult messy real life situations and trying to get people to be 'sensible ' and worm not breed more when they singing from a completly different hymn sheet the truth is often many people will probally have tried to influence to stop thebreeding etc and many welfare organisations will have been tearing their hair out over the breeding and lack of worming.


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## brighteyes (7 January 2013)

There were too many incongruities to make any sense of what was shown in any case.


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## Goldenstar (7 January 2013)

brighteyes said:



			There were too many incongruities to make any sense of what was shown in any case.
		
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Oh I agree it was a short programme telling only a fraction of the story confusingly presented .


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## Jools1234 (7 January 2013)

whats really sad is that anyone who is feeling out of their depth, due to having taken on too many animals of any kind are now even less likely to ask for help. from what the programme showed non of the horses were 'suffering' or obviously 'ill', the RSPCA offered no help or assistance they just waded in with a we know best attitude and rather than help prosecuted a and who did not stand in their way.

poor fellow and amazinglg kind woman


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## Moomin1 (7 January 2013)

Jools1234 said:



			whats really sad is that anyone who is feeling out of their depth, due to having taken on too many animals of any kind are now even less likely to ask for help. from what the programme showed non of the horses were 'suffering' or obviously 'ill', the RSPCA offered no help or assistance they just waded in with a we know best attitude and rather than help prosecuted a and who did not stand in their way.

poor fellow and amazinglg kind woman
		
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Well a qualified vet seemed to think that some horses were suffering, so did a court of law.  So did that Michelle, by her own words in the footage! 

Again, how do you KNOW that no help had been given over many months prior to this being filmed?  You don't.

What makes me laugh about this forum at times is, that if somebody posted on here about a similar situation, and the RSPCA had purportedly 'done nothing' and somebody found a dead foal, amongst suffering horses who do not recieve up to standard care, then people would be all too quick to shout about it and say it's the RSPCA's fault that those horses have suffered and died because they didn't step in sooner!


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## Jools1234 (7 January 2013)

Moomin1 said:



			Well a qualified vet seemed to think that some horses were suffering, so did a court of law.  So did that Michelle, by her own words in the footage! 

Again, how do you KNOW that no help had been given over many months prior to this being filmed?  You don't.

What makes me laugh about this forum at times is, that if somebody posted on here about a similar situation, and the RSPCA had purportedly 'done nothing' and somebody found a dead foal, amongst suffering horses who do not recieve up to standard care, then people would be all too quick to shout about it and say it's the RSPCA's fault that those horses have suffered and died because they didn't step in sooner! 

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try reading my post properly moomin i said...'from what the programme showed.....'


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## singlefarmer (7 January 2013)

Moomin1 said:



			Well a qualified vet seemed to think that some horses were suffering, so did a court of law.  So did that Michelle, by her own words in the footage! 

Again, how do you KNOW that no help had been given over many months prior to this being filmed?  You don't.

What makes me laugh about this forum at times is, that if somebody posted on here about a similar situation, and the RSPCA had purportedly 'done nothing' and somebody found a dead foal, amongst suffering horses who do not recieve up to standard care, then people would be all too quick to shout about it and say it's the RSPCA's fault that those horses have suffered and died because they didn't step in sooner! 

Click to expand...

Haven't read this thread but
A Court of Law only goes on the evidence presented before it............


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## guesstimation (7 January 2013)

I've not read all the recent posts, although I really do not agree with how the RSPCA chose to deal with this, from how its been portrayed, at least they are paying attention, if his horses started to suffer more and more and they'd been reports and nothing was done I'm sure we'd all be in a rage that they ignored it.

I just wish there was a in between way to deal with these situations you either hear of cases where they go in all guns blazing or not at all. I'm sure they do good work but they need to look at their policies, how matters are dealt with on an individual basis and if there are better options available, as well as staff training for wild ponies, or at least be able to call in another organisation who are much note trained and knowledgeable in such situations. 

The joys of TV too its portrayed how a production team want it to be, it really did feel like an unfinished programme.


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## Moomin1 (7 January 2013)

singlefarmer said:



			Haven't read this thread but
A Court of Law only goes on the evidence presented before it............
		
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And the defence presented before it...

Therefore coming to a conclusion of balance of probability.


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## YorksG (7 January 2013)

Perhaps it is the manner in which the RSPCA get involved which causes the problem. If they were ever shown, on the TV programmes which they agree to be filmed in, offering help, rather than issuing threats and 'cautions', while pretending to have powers that they do not, then people would perhaps be more understanding of their stand point. If the prosecution were left to the CPS, then one important factor, which does not appear to be considered by the RSPCA, would be, is the prosecution in the public interest? If the public interest tes thad been applied in this case, then this man would never have been prosecuted. The RSPCA actively prosecuted one petshop owner three times, each time resulting in the petshop owner being found not guilty. This was at a time when the RSPCA were publicly calling for the end of petshops selling animals. The RSPCA did gain their closure of the pet shop, as the owner could not face them putting him through the same scenario for the fourth time.


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## singlefarmer (7 January 2013)

Moomin1 said:



			And the defence presented before it...

Therefore coming to a conclusion of balance of probability.

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What I meant was an actual Court of Law doesn't look at something like a horse & decide if it is being ill treated. Some Judges are wayyyyyyyyy out of touch with reality.


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## Goldenstar (7 January 2013)

singlefarmer said:



			What I meant was an actual Court of Law doesn't look at something like a horse & decide if it is being ill treated. Some Judges are wayyyyyyyyy out of touch with reality.
		
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Its usually magistrates that deal with RSPCA cases and IME they where very sensible in cases I was involved in.


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## Moomin1 (7 January 2013)

singlefarmer said:



			What I meant was an actual Court of Law doesn't look at something like a horse & decide if it is being ill treated. Some Judges are wayyyyyyyyy out of touch with reality.
		
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The vet who gives an opinion is the expert witness.  The magistrates make a decision as to a guilty verdict or not based on the balance of probability taking into account both the prosecutor's and the defendant's evidence.  The RSPCA actually offer to pay for the defendant to have a vet of their choice examine the evidence for their defence too.  Whether the defendant takes that offer up is up to them.


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## ILuvCowparsely (7 January 2013)

This reminds me of a case in Animal Cop Houston.   Where they say when there is clearly no deliberate cruelty, help and  education is better  than conviction


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## Moomin1 (7 January 2013)

Leviathan said:



			This reminds me of a case in Animal Cop Houston.   Where they say when there is clearly no deliberate cruelty, help and  education is better  than conviction
		
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Absolutely.  But when the defendant has been a prolific breeder in past years, I am quite sure he does not need educating on worming and basic care of horses.  Plus, when the continuous offer of support and help falls on deaf ears and horses just keep ending up in the same situations or replaced, there may be no other alternative than conviction.  

Hoarders are far more complicated than just somebody who requires a bit of a hand tidying there house up the odd occassion....it is a mental illness, and one which is rarely effectively treated to any great success.

Food for thought.


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## LollyDolly (7 January 2013)

Ok, I am not going to say who is right or wrong and what things should have been done differently because frankly I don't feel that enough information has been presented within the 'documentary' for me to make a fully informed decision. 

However, from a psychological perspective I would like to have a little speculation as to why Clwyd behaves the way he does. 
Firstly it is worth noting that he was not always like that and in fact led a 'normal' life, that was until the death of his 18 year old daughter. This appears to have been the main factor as to why his life began a downward spiral, and is therefore of great significance. He mentions how he had some stock in the Royal Welsh when showing the pictures, this combined with his knowledge leads me to believe that he has been into horses for many years, even before the death of his daughter. Now, his daughter may have been horsey herself. She could have been horsey because of her father, Clwyd, or she could have been horsey and in fact converted him and sparked his interest in horses, we don't know the cause and effect. Regardless I am willing to bet money on the fact that she was interested in horses, and I speculate that due to her passion/interest/love (phrase it as you will) that after her death Clwyd kept the horses for her. 
In layman's terms, I'm speculating that his daughter, Hayley, loved horses and after her death Clwyd clung to her through the horses. He wanted to keep her passion alive and be as close to them as possible because to him it felt like a connection to his daughter, much like how parents of a deceased child may cherish said child's favorite football team or something. Parents deal with the loss of a child in different ways however it is a common occurrence for them to cling to the things which the child loved most. 
Personally that is what I believe that Clwyd is doing, he is clinging to the horses because they remind him of his daughter and he feels comforted by that, so much so that he has dedicated his life to caring for them. This would also explain his attachment to Michelle who is referred to as a "surrogate daughter".
I also found it extremely interesting when he was showing the pictures of his horses, notice that most of them (if not all) have 'people names' and not typical pet names. 

However I could be wrong, this is only my speculation after all.


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## Daytona (8 January 2013)

LollyDolly said:



			Ok, I am not going to say who is right or wrong and what things should have been done differently because frankly I don't feel that enough information has been presented within the 'documentary' for me to make a fully informed decision. 

However, from a psychological perspective I would like to have a little speculation as to why Clwyd behaves the way he does. 
Firstly it is worth noting that he was not always like that and in fact led a 'normal' life, that was until the death of his 18 year old daughter. This appears to have been the main factor as to why his life began a downward spiral, and is therefore of great significance. He mentions how he had some stock in the Royal Welsh when showing the pictures, this combined with his knowledge leads me to believe that he has been into horses for many years, even before the death of his daughter. Now, his daughter may have been horsey herself. She could have been horsey because of her father, Clwyd, or she could have been horsey and in fact converted him and sparked his interest in horses, we don't know the cause and effect. Regardless I am willing to bet money on the fact that she was interested in horses, and I speculate that due to her passion/interest/love (phrase it as you will) that after her death Clwyd kept the horses for her. 
In layman's terms, I'm speculating that his daughter, Hayley, loved horses and after her death Clwyd clung to her through the horses. He wanted to keep her passion alive and be as close to them as possible because to him it felt like a connection to his daughter, much like how parents of a deceased child may cherish said child's favorite football team or something. Parents deal with the loss of a child in different ways however it is a common occurrence for them to cling to the things which the child loved most. 
Personally that is what I believe that Clwyd is doing, he is clinging to the horses because they remind him of his daughter and he feels comforted by that, so much so that he has dedicated his life to caring for them. This would also explain his attachment to Michelle who is referred to as a "surrogate daughter".
I also found it extremely interesting when he was showing the pictures of his horses, notice that most of them (if not all) have 'people names' and not typical pet names. 

However I could be wrong, this is only my speculation after all.
		
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Very interesting reading ,  the poor man has clearly suffered, bless him :-(


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## Littlelegs (8 January 2013)

I'm not sure I would always agree with that leviathan. The majority of cruelty is done through lack of knowledge rather than deliberately. Of course there are grey areas, but let's say I buy a piglet cos my daughter thinks they are cute. And I keep it on my patio with insufficient food & no shelter, just concrete. Yes, that could be cos I know sweet fa about pigs, but I would argue its my duty to learn the basics beforehand. Or let's say I take on an infoal mare & keep it in the tiny paddock next to my house cos its cute. Until it dies from starvation leaving its unweaned foal, with no company & the few blades of grass that grow. And a lice problem, & worms. And with the foal in poor condition & no shelter its coat is more rainscald than hair. It has feet that have rotted badly because its never known dry ground. It has nothing but scabs over its legs. It has wounds, some healed, where dogs got in the field regularly & chased it. It's pitifully thin & desperate for company, but the now nervous owners tend to hit it with a broom because in its solitary confinement it races at them when they enter the patch it lives on. Few wounds from getting tangled in loose barbed wire. Owners stop even going into see it. It's socialization is limited to the angry regular dog walker, because foal has taken to defending itself from the dog that chases it. So after a few cracks from the dog walker foal goes for him too. And eventually does the same to owners. End result is a mentally & physically screwed up foal. Deliberate cruelty? No. But that doesn't make it ok. Assuming they are able to live independently, anyone taking on the care of an animal has a duty to ensure they have the basic knowledge to do so without being cruel, & the decency to get an experienced 2nd opinion where there is a flicker of doubt. Imo only in a small minority of cases is cruelty through lack of knowledge 'innocent', I find in most cases they are just as guilty as someone who has done it deliberately.


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## Dolcé (8 January 2013)

He was apparently a successful breeder of show ponies/horses in his day so I agree with moomin that he doesn't need education, I suspect he has forgotten more than many of us will ever know.  I do think the RSPCA went about it in the wrong way, whatever the history hinted at by moomin.  The prosecution was pointless, if the welfare of the horses was so poor then they should simply have siezed the lot and that would/should have been an end to it. The film of them trying to catch and load the black pony was not inspiring, they just made themselves look incompetent.  I would imagine that he is a difficult man to deal with, the tragedy in his life has made him opt out of society and have his horses as companions instead of people.  Whatever the history, background etc his story is a sad one and the man deserves sympathy rather than scorn!


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## Partridg3 (8 January 2013)

The horses give him a reason for living. The ones he "breeds" probably provide him with a bit of cash. He's let everything else go since period of personal tragedy. Needs help not persecution. Yes, he's skipping some basic equine management but those horses looked well to me!


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## Jericho (8 January 2013)

Littlelegs said:



			It's very hard to form a fully informed opinion, when large chunks of information was missing. Such as why did the foal die, how many others have in his care, why wasn't worming done sooner, what previous involvement has rspca had, what were the details of the charges & many more. 
  While I can't imagine the pain of losing a child, & don't want to try, I don't think its acceptable to say it excuses neglecting animals 24yrs later. Living in filth, not washing etc all are entirely his decision, & not one I'd criticize. But when you also allow animals to suffer, then I'm afraid people will judge you. Unfortunately many people do lose children, & if society then allowed them to break the law because of that for the rest of their lives then I think we'd be in a mess.
		
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Well said.


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## EstherYoung (8 January 2013)

He pleaded guilty so there wouldn't have been a 'trial' as such. The judge just needed to decide what to do with him, which was give him a suspended sentence dependant on him reducing numbers further (I believe). Probably the right result given the guilty plea.

I thought the programme was quite cleverly done, as it's a very difficult subject matter which by its very nature will provoke extreme emotional reactions on both sides, but I thought it was masses too short with many unanswered questions.


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## gemin1eye (8 January 2013)

I think.the blind hatred people seem to have of the rspca is definately clouding the issue. If i kept a horse at your livery yard and left it out, fed it and made sure it had food and water but nevrr wormed, got the farrier out or otherwise looked after it and put it in foal every year you would say i was mistreating it. but because the rspca are involved here thats different is it? Moomin i agree with absolutely everything youve said im glad the voice of reason has found its way onto this thread!


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## guido16 (8 January 2013)

Right, I apologise to those I offended, not my intention.

I was harsh to name call, so to put things straight.
I still hold my opinion that others have put down in a better manner. Forget the RSPCA, in this discussion, I am only giving an opinion on the owner. What annoyed me most was firstly that he sat their very smugly whilst his black horse was chased and darted. If he had helped then things would have been down in a much calmer manner for the horse. 
Secondly, he took on ten more horses! He clearly knew he should not have done in when he commented about the way the lady was walking towards him looking angry.

Now to level it out, I truly think he has mental health issues, however the death of a child, no matter how devastating, is not an excuse to end up with 52 horses. Surely someone should have stepped in MANY years ago when things starting deteriorating? 

Food for thought.


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## cindydog (8 January 2013)

My view on what I saw was that this man is overcome and needs help both with the horses and personal living, horse numbers had to be cut down, better care worming/farrier for horses.
The man was spending all his money on them, the lady Michelle who was helping him was going in the right direction why could the rspca just help along those lines and not take to court. 
I would like to see the council help him clean his house up ( think they are more likely to rehome him )  I would like to see a follow up to see how he and michelle are coping now.


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## Flame_ (8 January 2013)

There's no point in the council clearing the property up, proper hoarders just do it again. 

Animals, and even more importantly, though not relevant to this situation, children of hoarders are who really need the help and they are usually the only ones worth helping tbh.


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## Dry Rot (8 January 2013)

guido16 said:



			Right, I apologise to those I offended, not my intention.

I was harsh to name call, so to put things straight.
I still hold my opinion that others have put down in a better manner. Forget the RSPCA, in this discussion, I am only giving an opinion on the owner. What annoyed me most was firstly that he sat their very smugly whilst his black horse was chased and darted. If he had helped then things would have been down in a much calmer manner for the horse.
		
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We do not know that he did not offer to help. If he had offered, would the RSPCA have taken up the offer? I sincerely doubt it. My uncle, who farmed all his life, used to tell the story of the swan with a broken wing that the RSPCA man was trying to kill by sawing at its neck with a blunt pen knife. He was outraged as he had killed many geese over the years. But would the man let him help? Not on your life! The RSPCA inspectors are "experts" and they are trained!




			Secondly, he took on ten more horses! He clearly knew he should not have done in when he commented about the way the lady was walking towards him looking angry.
		
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No he shouldn't have, but he took them for a short period to help out a friend. They were taken away by the owner in a few days as was made clear on the video.




			Now to level it out, I truly think he has mental health issues, however the death of a child, no matter how devastating, is not an excuse to end up with 52 horses. Surely someone should have stepped in MANY years ago when things starting deteriorating?
		
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Agreed. But not an excuse to whom? The man cannot help being ill. 




			Food for thought.
		
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Yes, indeed. I don't really blame the anonymous person who reported him initially either, but the RSPCA come out of it looking smug and stupid and their credibility has sunk to new levels. Instead of wasting time and money on so many "helpers" and expensive legal actions, perhaps they should have followed Michelle's example and done something positive? Do-gooders really make me mad. They always "know best", yet are always the last to actually make a contribution. "Someone ought to DO something". Well, sometimes that someone is us.


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## Ibblebibble (8 January 2013)

how long would it take to end up with 52 horses he can't have been breeding indescriminately and hoarding for 24 years as he'd have rather more than 52 i would imagine, so he must have been controlling numbers somewhere along the lines.
 Whilst i agree that something had to be done i still don't think the RSPCA went about it the right way, i sometimes think they need not only more training in dealing with animals but people too! trying to bully a stubborn old man into working with them is never going to work, he will always give them the finger and carry on regardless! 

As for his living conditions, think you'd be surprised at how some people do live even in 'nice' houses in 'nice ' areas. OH watched the programme too ,he used to be a coroners undertaker, he's picked up bodies from houses in similar states in the supposed posh areas of Bristol and Bath, people who have been dead for weeks, unnoticed because no one is involved in their lives. A whole section of society forgotten or ignored because they are too difficult to deal with, not worth the effort


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## Moomin1 (8 January 2013)

Dolcé;11422178 said:
			
		


			He was apparently a successful breeder of show ponies/horses in his day so I agree with moomin that he doesn't need education, I suspect he has forgotten more than many of us will ever know.  I do think the RSPCA went about it in the wrong way, whatever the history hinted at by moomin.  The prosecution was pointless, if the welfare of the horses was so poor then they should simply have siezed the lot and that would/should have been an end to it. The film of them trying to catch and load the black pony was not inspiring, they just made themselves look incompetent.  I would imagine that he is a difficult man to deal with, the tragedy in his life has made him opt out of society and have his horses as companions instead of people.  Whatever the history, background etc his story is a sad one and the man deserves sympathy rather than scorn!
		
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Right, ok, so the police seize the lot, take them away...they still 'belong' to the owner.  They cannot be rehomed or have anything done with them until a court decides whether they should be permanently removed from the owner.  A Section 20 application under AWA may be made, in order to not prosecute in some instances, however this would deal with the issues of the horses removed, but not prevent him in any way whatsoever from filling his fields back up and being in the same situation 6 months down the line.  Now that really would be a waste of money.


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## domane (8 January 2013)

I haven't read through the whole thread so I may be duplicating a previous post, but Michelle is on FB, re-homing Clwyd's ponies on her Wrexham Rescue Horses page.  Understandably the page is a bit clogged up with messages of support to her at the moment, but if you join the page and tab down, you can see how hard she works.....


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## Moomin1 (8 January 2013)

domane said:



			I haven't read through the whole thread so I may be duplicating a previous post, but Michelle is on FB, re-homing Clwyd's ponies on her Wrexham Rescue Horses page.  Understandably the page is a bit clogged up with messages of support to her at the moment, but if you join the page and tab down, you can see how hard she works.....
		
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I'm sure she does work very hard given the continual task she has of rehoming all of his bred or acquired horses time after time.


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## Goldenstar (8 January 2013)

It's trying to stop further breeding that is so difficult with hoarders it's perfectly possible that you could reduce the herd get the entires moved on turn your back and find the hoarder has found a "compelling reason' to put a colt back in with the mares ,their reasoning process is just wired differently.
To those who say these horses look well covered yes most of them did but what about regular worming , tetanus shots, basic foot care these things can't be skipped just because you have 52 horses and an are living an alternative life style , what if they all got strangles who would pay to treat them ?
The RSPCA will not have removed horses without a vet being prepared to say that it was necessary or they where voluntarily signed over I have never seen them remove a healthy horse IME I saw more pitiful horses left because it was felt the prosecution was too borderline 
This is not a situation that you can just leave this man will need help in an ongoing way long term Michelle has I think the best chance of doing this I appauld her .
I would not like to see this old man with no horses but it needs getting and keeping under control easy to say difficult to do.


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## _GG_ (8 January 2013)

On the whole I just found this programme sad. 

It is sad that society can allow any person to become so lost. 

I found this particularly poignant as I have just helped an elderly man at my yard in circumstances that are not dissimilar, just far less horses. That man made the decision due to safety and welfare reasons to have his horsesput to sleep. 

If the rspca worked with this man, things could have been very different. 

All of the horses sold off to reduce numbers were sold for low asking prices. The chances are that many if theses horses could have been bought by people looking for a bargain but not having the necessary experience. Those horses could then end up left in a field, abandoned, in worse conditions or passed from pillar to post as do gooder after do gooder try and fail to "break" them. God only knows what those horses could go through.

At least with this man, they were happy herd animals. Allowing his friends horses on the land couldave cost him that filly, but sometimes foals do just die. 

I would think.it far better to look to set up a partnership with a local college or training centre. Big college with an equestrian programme agrees to take x amount of youngsters a year. Students get hands on experience of correct starting and training. College sells for decent prices as horses are well educated and pay a percentage to Clwyd that goes towards worming, trimming where necessary and castration of colts. 

People like Clwyd put up such barriers as a way of protecting themselves. Damn good on Michelle for doing all that she dies, but perhaps someone could help her as well and perhaps...if the RSPCA come across someone like Clwyd, they could share information to ensure that channels of support are opened up for him as well. 

Should the RSPCA have just taken all the horses? Possibly. But I would be extremely concerned for Clwyds welfare  should that happen. Also, we can't be naive with these things. Shelters are massively overstocked, so very often actually it would be better to PTS than sell on to uncertain futures. 

Very thought provoking subject.

My friend now is also part of the family and we have enabled him to keep one of his horses. This does mean that we still have to help him out, but better to make a little sacrifice and be able to keep an eye on him, make sure he is going to the doctors when he needs and is eating enough than just sort the horses out and leave him to sink away into an invisible life.


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## _GG_ (8 January 2013)

Please excuse spelling mistakes...posting from phone is not easy


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## The_snoopster (8 January 2013)

I am surprized that so many are in support of this man over breeding when there are far too many iunwanted horses in this country, he did not just have young colts on his property they removed several stallions as well as colts. I am not in support of taking all his horses off him, but trust me this man could be left with mares only and he would not be able to resist getting another stallion and start the cycle again.
Had not the RSPCA become involved how many more would of been bred, colts serving their own dams, brothers and sisters interbreeding. He did not separate colts and fillies they all ran together, whilst I am not the RSPCA,s biggest fan but its really not there job to get this man treated for any mental health issues he may or maynot have. And why should peoples donations go to worming this mans horses which he addmitted he was breeding himself, and he was not the type to listen to reason from the RSPCA so maybe by taking him to court might shock him into getting his act together although I doubt this very much.


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## Ibblebibble (8 January 2013)

don't think anyone did agree with his breeding practices but the heavy handed incompetence of the RSPCA was not the best way of helping him.


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## The Fuzzy Furry (8 January 2013)

Unfortunately things could escalate at any time, as tho the programme said he had 'moved into an abandoned farm' this is not his, nor is he renting it - he's squatting there. So if/when eviction starts, then there is a bigger problem in moving the horses on.

I'm sure everyone has differing opinions (as posted all through this thread!)  but Michelle is doing a sterling job, but being hindered so often by Clwyd when he adds to his stores with more stock including stallions, or when he wont get the colts gelded. The latter is what the RSPCA should be helping with - gelding and/or removal of all colts at weaning.


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## spottybotty (8 January 2013)

Goldenstar said:



			It's trying to stop further breeding that is so difficult with hoarders it's perfectly possible that you could reduce the herd get the entires moved on turn your back and find the hoarder has found a "compelling reason' to put a colt back in with the mares ,their reasoning process is just wired differently.
To those who say these horses look well covered yes most of them did but what about regular worming , tetanus shots, basic foot care these things can't be skipped just because you have 52 horses and an are living an alternative life style , what if they all got strangles who would pay to treat them ?
The RSPCA will not have removed horses without a vet being prepared to say that it was necessary or they where voluntarily signed over I have never seen them remove a healthy horse IME I saw more pitiful horses left because it was felt the prosecution was too borderline 
This is not a situation that you can just leave this man will need help in an ongoing way long term Michelle has I think the best chance of doing this I appauld her .
I would not like to see this old man with no horses but it needs getting and keeping under control easy to say difficult to do.
		
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I am going to agree with Moomin and ^^^^^. I have first hand experience of animal hoarders. Despite the fact that he knew the RSPCA were on his case he took on a "mates" horses!!!Hoarders just dont know when to stop collecting animals. I actually got very angry when he sat laughing and eating his sandwich as the RSPCA tried to catch the black pony. The ponies know him and trust him ,he could have quite easily have caught the black pony instead of watching it get exceptionally stressed at the efforts of the RSPCA. I am not a fan of the RSPCA but they just cant win! I could imagine the outcry if the horses had been left and conditions deteriorated even further, people would be up in arms saying "Where was the RSPCA?".


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## haribo83 (8 January 2013)

At the very start of the programme there was a reference by the voiceover man about horses/ponies being taken to receive veterinary care for emaciation and worm burden. We did not see these but it showed that the issue was going on prior to the film makers turning up which is just a small illustration that there is more to this story that 30 minutes of journalism. The would have advised and they would have given him time to improve things.

No one can question his love for the horses and the horror he has experienced in losing his daughter but he is a hoarder and hoarders will not be educated an example was when he took on the 10 extra ones for the short time despite receiving an Animal Welfare Act warning notice for the parasites in his existing herd. 

Feeding horses is not enough, they need worming and vaccinating for tetanus as a bare minimum in a herd situation like that and the RSPCA and other welfare groups routinely see horses dying as they have not had this basic care. It would have been an independent vet who said the horses prior to the filming and the one during the filming should be seized and would have compiled the veterinary evidence for caught that made 18 charges of un-necessary suffering.

The RSPCA may not be perfect and were not shown in the best light in the catching scene, but perhaps he could have helped round up that one horse and save it the stress? I would also imagine that looking at the different shades of blue and sheer quantity of people there was at least one another horse welfare charity involved but the focus was the RSPCA as they were taking the prosecution.

You will find they did not comment as it would have been an active case and legally they are unable to comment until the court conclude the case.


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## spottybotty (8 January 2013)

haribo83 said:



			At the very start of the programme there was a reference by the voiceover man about horses/ponies being taken to receive veterinary care for emaciation and worm burden. We did not see these but it showed that the issue was going on prior to the film makers turning up which is just a small illustration that there is more to this story that 30 minutes of journalism. The would have advised and they would have given him time to improve things.

No one can question his love for the horses and the horror he has experienced in losing his daughter but he is a hoarder and hoarders will not be educated an example was when he took on the 10 extra ones for the short time despite receiving an Animal Welfare Act warning notice for the parasites in his existing herd. 

Feeding horses is not enough, they need worming and vaccinating for tetanus as a bare minimum in a herd situation like that and the RSPCA and other welfare groups routinely see horses dying as they have not had this basic care. It would have been an independent vet who said the horses prior to the filming and the one during the filming should be seized and would have compiled the veterinary evidence for caught that made 18 charges of un-necessary suffering.

The RSPCA may not be perfect and were not shown in the best light in the catching scene, but perhaps he could have helped round up that one horse and save it the stress? I would also imagine that looking at the different shades of blue and sheer quantity of people there was at least one another horse welfare charity involved but the focus was the RSPCA as they were taking the prosecution.

You will find they did not comment as it would have been an active case and legally they are unable to comment until the court conclude the case.
		
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Like!!^^^^. It was very one sided.


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## windand rain (8 January 2013)

It may even have been better for the RSPCA to remove the mares and return to him a herd of gelding no more breeding he still has horses and his passion for them was obvious even if he did take the mick at their expense. There is a limit to what you should do when dealing with the mentally ill taking them all may well have resulted in his death It has happened before. 
Michelle also took in the coloured cobs that were abandoned in south wales so this is by no means her first big "Rescue" I am not sure about the selling policy where you pay a fee and the horse is yours but you cant sell it or dispose of it without their permission or if they are simply sold. If it is the later I would be saddened by that especially as many of the mares in both cases are pregnant


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## JanetGeorge (8 January 2013)

The Fuzzy Furry said:



			Unfortunately things could escalate at any time, as tho the programme said he had 'moved into an abandoned farm' this is not his, nor is he renting it - he's squatting there. So if/when eviction starts, then there is a bigger problem in moving the horses on.
		
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He was evicted from his tenanted farm in 2009 - as he was letting it go to wrack and ruin and not paying his rent.  Different people were trying to help him then - he wouldn't let the horses go as he said something along the lines of: "They are my pension!"

I didn't watch the program as it would have just made me cross!  He doesn't deserve sympathy - nor all the efforts that have been made to 'help' him over the years!  He laps it all up!


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## jumpingjasper (8 January 2013)

How long was the progamme yesterday? watching on catch up and only 25 mins long? was this the same yesterday?


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## justforfun (8 January 2013)

VOM said:



			Possibly going to piss people off (which actually isnt my intention) but I think if I were a horse I would rather live there than cooped up in a stable 23 hours a day overloaded with matching rugs, being kicked and pulled round a sand arena then poked and prodded because I'm not going right for my owner. 

BTW I'm no tree hugger and don't follow any NH tribe.
		
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common sence at last.
I have seen some terrible horses at livery yards with no life, over rugged, not ridden, and stabled 23 hrs a day.


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## justforfun (8 January 2013)

vaccinating for tetanus as a bare minimum in a herd situation.

I think this too, yet found a local riding school dont vaccinate!


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## SusieT (8 January 2013)

Am I the only one who could see that the programme was done by producers who wanted to take the alternative view where the man was a poor beaten soul and the rspca and anyone who wasn't 'helping him' run essentially a breeding operation was evil/stupid/incompetent?


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## fburton (8 January 2013)

There are two sides (at least) to every story.


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## milesjess (8 January 2013)

Animal hoarding is actually an illness, it's especially recognised in the states. 

I watched it and viewed it from both sides of the story. I remain sat on the fence with it but I do have an ounce of sympathy for him... That's just me and my nature.

It's good to hear he's complying with the authorities but I really hope he gets the help he obviously needs, not just with his horses but with his own life and living conditions.


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## dressedkez (8 January 2013)

I have come late to this discussion - and wondered where it was on the posts (having watched it last night) My initial thoughts was that he was damaged himself, and the horses / ponies did not look that bad, though clearly he was over stocked. The RSPCA trying to sedate the pony was shameful.........he did himself no favours by taking on additional random horses - though the foal that died looked very well, but as we all know, where you have live stock one has dead stock - he was shambolic - his neighbour was clearly trying to help, and I felt that the RSPCA were equally shambolic in thier approach (sledge hammer tactics) I was glad that when it came to Court - that he must have clearly had a Country Magistrate who had some understanding of his lifestyle and his approach to the ponies - so seemed to give him a bit of grace to be a bit more sensible in reducing his numbers. He came across as being fairly out of control - the RSPCA came across of being totally out of control - TV editing of course, but it does make one think about the RSPCA's role? - guys like Clywd are easy? Tackling some real welfare issues issues are less easy? Could the RSPCA be taking the path of least resistence?


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## fburton (9 January 2013)

I haven't watched the programme yet myself, so when I do it'll clearly be without any preconceptions. 



JanetGeorge said:



			He was evicted from his tenanted farm in 2009 - as he was letting it go to wrack and ruin and not paying his rent.  Different people were trying to help him then - he wouldn't let the horses go as he said something along the lines of: "They are my pension!"

I didn't watch the program as it would have just made me cross!  He doesn't deserve sympathy - nor all the efforts that have been made to 'help' him over the years!  He laps it all up!
		
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What do you mean by "laps it up", JG? Does he accept the help he seems by most accounts to need, or reject it? If the latter, in what manner? Or does he actually not need any help? What do you think is the best way forward? Further prosecutions? Someone slip some poison into his tea?


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## Moomin1 (9 January 2013)

Hope this may help people come to a more informed conclusion about the matter.

Here is a piece of information from the RSPCA fb site stating the amount of hours spent trying to help this man up to one year prior the making of the film (excuse the quotation format I am rubbish at technology!):

"we were involved over a year before the documentary began to be filmed. We spent 246 man hours in dealing with Mr Davies and his horses, obviously far longer than the information shown in the half hour documentary 

The RSPCA decided to prosecute Mr Davies because we had serious concerns not only about his financial ability to look after his horses, but also his physical capability and the layout and condition of the farm.

We only ever prosecute as a last resort and we hoped Mr Davies would listen to advice and improve the welfare of his horses by giving them feed, and by worming and delousing them.

Some horses were signed over to the RSPCA and some improvement in the remaining horses&#8217; care was made, but following two warnings (one of which had its time limit extended), we still had serious concerns about Mr Davies&#8217; ability to care adequately for his horses.

He also refused to answer the RSPCA&#8217;s questions, so unfortunately we had no option but to take the matter to court - something people who donate to the RSPCA to allow us to continue our animal welfare work would expect us to do.

The horses were extremely thin and suffering from untreated parasites resulting in protein loss and weakness.

Mr Davies pleaded guilty to animal welfare offences and sentencing was deferred until 12 April 2013 to allow arrangements for the horses to be made."

(End of quote)

Here is a picture of one of the horses Mr Davies had removed from him:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/rspca/8365018496/in/photostream


Hope that is of some help to some people.


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## FionaM12 (9 January 2013)

I couldn't help feeling sympathy for the man, and the film did show the RSPCA in a very bad light.

However, after I'd had time to think and put my emotional reaction to one side, I realised it was a very biased manipulative film, totally one-sided and clearly only telling a little bit of the story.

I did think I could never have sat laughing eating my lunch when a frightened horse of mine was being chased round and darted.  I'd either be trying to stop them or helping for the good of the horse. 

If we'd been shown the horses which had already been taken away (such as the one in photo in the link above) and had a statement form the RSPCA about all they'd tried to do so far, it would have told a different story.

Film-makers have their own agenda and it isn't always fairness and honesty.


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## Moomin1 (9 January 2013)

FionaM12 said:



			I couldn't help feeling sympathy for the man, and the film did show the RSPCA in a very bad light.

However, after I'd had time to think and put my emotional reaction to one side, I realised it was a very biased manipulative film, totally one-sided and clearly only telling a little bit of the story.

I did think I could never have sat laughing eating my lunch when a frightened horse of mine was being chased round and darted.  I'd either be trying to stop them or helping for the good of the horse. 

If we'd been shown the horses which had already been taken away (such as the one in photo in the link above) and had a statement form the RSPCA about all they'd tried to do so far, it would have told a different story.

Film-makers have their own agenda and it isn't always fairness and honesty.
		
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I think there should always be room for sympathy FionaM12 so nobody blames you for that at all.  But of course sympathy has to come to an end after countless attempts at trying to help.

As for it having told a different story, that is exactly the point I was trying to make on the other thread about not jumping to conclusions, just as you were trying to point out too.  Shame people are too blinkered to sometimes think outside the box at times.


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## -Sj- (9 January 2013)

I see there's been a facebook page set up with over 6000 people liking the page and now the page is asking for donations of money.


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## Moomin1 (9 January 2013)

-Sj- said:



			I see there's been a facebook page set up with over 6000 people liking the page and now the page is asking for donations of money.
		
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Yes I believe so.

Can't say I have actually looked at it though.


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## FionaM12 (9 January 2013)

Moomin1 said:



			I think there should always be room for sympathy FionaM12 so nobody blames you for that at all.  But of course sympathy has to come to an end after countless attempts at trying to help.

As for it having told a different story, that is exactly the point I was trying to make on the other thread about not jumping to conclusions, just as you were trying to point out too.  Shame people are too blinkered to sometimes think outside the box at times. 

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Sympathy doesn't have to end though. People still need help, even if they're not able to care for their animals.

A few months ago I had the heart-wrenching experience of being involved (with an animal charity) in forcibly parting my ex from his 3 adult cats and 7 kittens. He has mental health problems, and wasn't taking care of them. They needed rescuing but he needed help, too. 

We can care for both owners and animals. But sometimes the two need parting.


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## Moomin1 (9 January 2013)

FionaM12 said:



			Sympathy doesn't have to end though. People still need help, even if they're not able to care for their animals.

A few months ago I had the heart-wrenching experience of being involved (with an animal charity) in forcibly parting my ex from his 3 adult cats and 7 kittens. He has mental health problems, and wasn't taking care of them. They needed rescuing but he needed help, too. 

We can care for both owners and animals. But sometimes the two need parting. 

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Sorry, yes I worded that badly, what I meant was that when endless amount of help is given and no improvement takes place, and animals are suffering, then sympathy is not enough any more and further action must be taken.

Hopefully, though doubtfullly, the whole thing may change his life somewhat for the better in some ways.

Would be very interesting what the rest of the posters who thought the whole things was heavy handed and 'guns blazing' and unfair etc etc think now?  All very quiet?


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## fburton (9 January 2013)

Moomin1 said:



			Hope this may help people come to a more informed conclusion about the matter.
		
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Thanks for the additional information, Moomin1 - every bit extra helps. There's a few things I'd still like to know, and maybe the RSPCA would tell me if I asked, such as...




			"we were involved over a year before the documentary began to be filmed. We spent 246 man hours in dealing with Mr Davies and his horses, obviously far longer than the information shown in the half hour documentary
		
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What was the breakdown of that time? What did they actually do? 




			The RSPCA decided to prosecute Mr Davies because we had serious concerns not only about his financial ability to look after his horses, but also his physical capability and the layout and condition of the farm.
		
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How much did the prosecution cost the RSPCA?




			Some horses were signed over to the RSPCA and some improvement in the remaining horses&#8217; care was made, but following two warnings (one of which had its time limit extended), we still had serious concerns about Mr Davies&#8217; ability to care adequately for his horses.
		
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Does the RSPCA consider the condition of the horses shown in the documentary to be indicative of neglect? To my eyes only two or three were worryingly thin, and none 'emaciated'. So were there other horses present at the time of filming that were not shown?




			He also refused to answer the RSPCA&#8217;s questions, so unfortunately we had no option but to take the matter to court - something people who donate to the RSPCA to allow us to continue our animal welfare work would expect us to do.
		
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Why was not getting answers the key factor in deciding to prosecute? Surely if the horses were objectively suffering, they could go ahead and prosecute anyway?




			The horses were extremely thin and suffering from untreated parasites resulting in protein loss and weakness.
		
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Which horses? The ones that were signed over?


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## fburton (9 January 2013)

FionaM12 said:



			I did think I could never have sat laughing eating my lunch when a frightened horse of mine was being chased round and darted.  I'd either be trying to stop them or helping for the good of the horse.
		
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TBH, I'm not sure what he could usefully have done once the RSPCA handlers had upset the horse like that. He probably thought they were numpties. Whether that's fair or not is another matter.




			Film-makers have their own agenda and it isn't always fairness and honesty.
		
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Agreed. Does the RSPCA have footage of their own?


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## Moomin1 (9 January 2013)

Have you seen the link in my post of the pic? That was just one of them. I don't think it matters how much it cost if the horses are safe. The issue of not answering is prob why he went to court. He offered no explanation as to why things were like they were or is compliant in resolving issues. As for a breakdown of time, I really don't think that is relevant either.  They spent that time trying to help him change the situ


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## fburton (9 January 2013)

Moomin1 said:



			Have you seen the link in my post of the pic?
		
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Yes, I did - it looks remarkably like the one pictured in the "Could you condition score this horse for me please? ... " thread. 

Would it be reasonable to assume that Mr. Davies signed the horse over because he recognized that it was thin and that, for whatever reason, he wasn't able to get weight on it? 




			That was just one of them.
		
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The worst, one hopes!


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## Moomin1 (9 January 2013)

The difference between making a judgement on this and the one in the other thread is that the facts have been established here whereas nobody knows a thing about the other.


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## Rebels (9 January 2013)

I have read a post by a RSPCA inspector, they said that Clewyd was asked to move to the pony to a smaller paddock on its own, something he was capable of doing with no fuss. He refused. The RSPCA had no control of the sedative administered, that was up to the vet present. They also said that the part that the documentary didn't show was the camera crew in pursuit of said pony hence they tried screens to block the view. Since reading more I am horrified by the amount of money going uncontrolled to this guy. Chucking money helps how?


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## VOM (9 January 2013)

No question the horse in that picture is in a bad state. Are there more photos? I'm thinking the RSPCA do have more? 

In the name of balance facts an all that this one picture doesn't change my mind all that much, out of the 52 horses he had, how many were in this state? It is quite possible that not every horse thrived but how many? Did he breed this one? How long was it with him? What state was it in when it arrived with him? Just linking one picture and a few quotes doesnt show the full picture either. 

The programme invoked compassion in most I think, anger in others and wrightly or wrongly showed the RSPCA in a pretty bad light. I don't want to see suffering in humans or horses (just to add his living conditions were far worse comparatively to the horses) but it DID make a good TV programme. If your 100% correct Moomin1 the programme makers must have some serious issue with the RSPCA or must have fallen in love with Clwyd and Michelle.


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## fburton (9 January 2013)

Rebels said:



			I have read a post by a RSPCA inspector, they said that Clewyd was asked to move to the pony to a smaller paddock on its own, something he was capable of doing with no fuss. He refused.
		
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Maybe he thought it was none of their business or he objected to their being so intrusive on his life and so he wasn't going to help them, misguided as that may be.




			They also said that the part that the documentary didn't show was the camera crew in pursuit of said pony hence they tried screens to block the view.
		
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The camera crew used screens to block the view of them pursuing the pony? Or the RSPCA used screens to block the view? Sorry, neither makes sense to me!




			Since reading more I am horrified by the amount of money going uncontrolled to this guy. Chucking money helps how?
		
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Is the money going to him directly, or through the very sensible Michelle? How would you like to see the situation resolved?


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## Moomin1 (9 January 2013)

Well I am sure if you ask the rspca they will show you. I have done my bit and considering a court found him guilty on a qualified vets evidence of suffering, not the rspca's, after they spent that many hrs trying to help, I am at a loss as to why people still try and defend him


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## fburton (9 January 2013)

Moomin1 said:



			Well I am sure if you ask the rspca they will show you. I have done my bit and considering a court found him guilty on a qualified vets evidence of suffering, not the rspca's, after they spent that many hrs trying to help, I am at a loss as to why people still try and defend him
		
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I am trying to understand what happened and why. How would you like to see the situation resolved?


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## FionaM12 (9 January 2013)

VOM said:



			The programme invoked compassion in most I think, anger in others and wrightly or wrongly showed the RSPCA in a pretty bad light. I don't want to see suffering in humans or horses (just to add his living conditions were far worse comparatively to the horses) but it DID make a good TV programme. If your 100% correct Moomin1 the programme makers must have some serious issue with the RSPCA or must have fallen in love with Clwyd and Michelle.
		
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I do think most films are made as entertainment and to be sold. They choose a view to present which makes good tv, and work with that.


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## Moomin1 (9 January 2013)

fburton said:



			I am trying to understand what happened and why. How would you like to see the situation resolved?
		
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Sorry fburton, I was mucking out and was too faffy to type from my phone.

I think that the actions taken by the RSPCA were reasonable and the outcome was proportionate to owner's situation and lack of cooperation over the previous year in which officers had spent hour after hour trying to work with him and resolve the situation.

I am confident the situation has been dealt with as effectively as could have been, though sadly, I wonder whether Clwyd will ever change his ways given the nature of hoarding as a mental illness.  

So, whether the chapter has ended or another one will begin for the RSPCA and other organisations with regard Clwyd will remain to be seen.


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## milesjess (9 January 2013)

Interesting reading the new information and seeing a photo provided of one of the horses.

Sounds to me like the RSPCA have carried out actions in the horses favour and eventually the mans... Though he'll probably never realise it.


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## Moomin1 (9 January 2013)

milesjess said:



			Interesting reading the new information and seeing a photo provided of one of the horses.

Sounds to me like the RSPCA have carried out actions in the horses favour and eventually the mans... Though he'll probably never realise it.
		
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On a complete tangent milesjess, can I just say that your horse is absolutely stunning!


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## milesjess (9 January 2013)

Aw thank you, I sadly lost him in August but he was an absolute stunner  thank you very much.


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## Moomin1 (9 January 2013)

milesjess said:



			Aw thank you, I sadly lost him in August but he was an absolute stunner  thank you very much.
		
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Oh no very sorry to hear that, how devastating for you. 

He looks just like my girl facially from the pic, and my old boy who I lost years back.


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## Rebels (9 January 2013)

Fburton, so far I have found a site sending money to be held at the local feed store to pay for Clwyds wormers, feeds etc, a site sending money to Michelle, a site sending money to Clwyd directly though that looked distinctly scam like. I would like to know more information about the case. The RSPCA say they spent a lot of time with him, what did that achieve? Did they remove previous animals that were unsaveable? How much did it cost to rehab those that were removed and what was their diagnosis. Why did they take that black colt? Clwyd described them as his pension so how many was he selling beforehand, how much was he making etc. He seemed to have money to buy feed and hay etc. My initial reaction was to help him but now it emerges that he has turned down help before. Getting into that situation is understandable just about but refusing help to get yourself out of it is not. He must be able to see that the situation is not sustainable even just inbreeding wise.


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## windand rain (9 January 2013)

As to them being his pension and him selling I am pretty sure he is clued up enough to not have them inbreeding and so reducing the breeding quality. He is a sick man but not a simpleton. I am not sure about the rescue and funds being collected it seems that the bandwagon has been well and truly jumped on and I am also certain that there are many more worthy causes but  even if the RSPCA  were not making headway they certainly didnt come across well and even the statements made are a bit vague and did not really improve my perception of them. The programme will only have harmed their cause even more that it is already and it really is time they were investigated and their motives checked. 
I still think they should have removed Clwyds mares and given him back all the gelded colts then the breeding would cease after this years crop. I also hope by now all those foals are caught handled and prepared for sale or the whole thing about the wild horses is lost


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## FionaM12 (9 January 2013)

windand rain said:



			As to them being his pension and him selling I am pretty sure he is clued up enough to not have them inbreeding and so reducing the breeding quality. He is a sick man but not a simpleton. I am not sure about the rescue and funds being collected it seems that the bandwagon has been well and truly jumped on and I am also certain that there are many more worthy causes but  even if the RSPCA  were not making headway they certainly didnt come across well and even the statements made are a bit vague and did not really improve my perception of them. The programme will only have harmed their cause even more that it is already and it really is time they were investigated and their motives checked. 
I still think they should have removed Clwyds mares and given him back all the gelded colts then the breeding would cease after this years crop. I also hope by now all those foals are caught handled and prepared for sale or the whole thing about the wild horses is lost
		
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But if it's true he has no land, perhaps they should be taken off him?


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## Moomin1 (9 January 2013)

windand rain said:



			As to them being his pension and him selling I am pretty sure he is clued up enough to not have them inbreeding and so reducing the breeding quality. He is a sick man but not a simpleton. I am not sure about the rescue and funds being collected it seems that the bandwagon has been well and truly jumped on and I am also certain that there are many more worthy causes but  even if the RSPCA  were not making headway they certainly didnt come across well and even the statements made are a bit vague and did not really improve my perception of them. The programme will only have harmed their cause even more that it is already and it really is time they were investigated and their motives checked. 
I still think they should have removed Clwyds mares and given him back all the gelded colts then the breeding would cease after this years crop. I also hope by now all those foals are caught handled and prepared for sale or the whole thing about the wild horses is lost
		
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Do you not think he would just go and get more?


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## windand rain (9 January 2013)

Possibly but he could be given an order to prevent that so he can only keep geldings that way he would still have his horses and the breeding would stop. After all if you can ban him from keeping horse (not done) surely it wouldnt be too hard to ban him from keeping mares.
This whole story smack a bit to me like a certain breeder who was banned for a while I fear he was and always will be a hoarder too


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## Moomin1 (9 January 2013)

windand rain said:



			Possibly but he could be given an order to prevent that so he can only keep geldings that way he would still have his horses and the breeding would stop. After all if you can ban him from keeping horse (not done) surely it wouldnt be too hard to ban him from keeping mares.
This whole story smack a bit to me like a certain breeder who was banned for a while I fear he was and always will be a hoarder too
		
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True, sadly quite often it is a case of once a hoarder always a hoarder.


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## roanypony (10 January 2013)

A bit worrying the ten TBs that joined Clwyd Davies herd belong to an elderly neighbour convicted and jailed in well known horse cruelty case. Fear there were no heroes or heroines on either side in this story.


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## fburton (10 January 2013)

roanypony said:



			A bit worrying the ten TBs that joined Clwyd Davies herd belong to an elderly neighbour convicted and jailed in well known horse cruelty case. Fear there were no heroes or heroines on either side in this story.
		
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Apart from Michelle (imo).


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## Moomin1 (10 January 2013)

roanypony said:



			A bit worrying the ten TBs that joined Clwyd Davies herd belong to an elderly neighbour convicted and jailed in well known horse cruelty case. Fear there were no heroes or heroines on either side in this story.
		
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I still fail to see how people can't actually think that it's a good thing that the horses have been removed from a man like this?


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## fburton (10 January 2013)

Moomin1 said:



			I still fail to see how people can't actually think that it's a good thing that the horses have been removed from a man like this?  

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Do you think that it would be better if all the horses were taken away from him, or is it possible, with appropriate (tactful, respectful) supervision and _help_, that he could continue with a manageable number of non-breeding stock?

Incidentally, do you know the fate of the animal whose picture you linked to? Was it PTS or did it recover? Do you know why it was so thin in comparison to the horses we saw in the documentary?


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## Moomin1 (10 January 2013)

fburton said:



			Do you think that it would be better if all the horses were taken away from him, or is it possible, with appropriate (tactful, respectful) supervision and _help_, that he could continue with a manageable number of non-breeding stock?

Incidentally, do you know the fate of the animal whose picture you linked to? Was it PTS or did it recover? Do you know why it was so thin in comparison to the horses we saw in the documentary?
		
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That was just ONE horse that was in that condition.  The ones in the footage were not those that were thin.

This man had over 200 man hours of help and supervision by the RSPCA prior to having to resort to prosecuting him.  I personally think that is more than reasonable, and the line was drawn at the appropriate time.


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## ossy (10 January 2013)

Moomin1 said:



			I still fail to see how people can't actually think that it's a good thing that the horses have been removed from a man like this?  

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Removing horses to reduce stock yes, removing horses completley no.   I fully believe that hoarding is a metal illness and by removing them all he will find a way of hoarding again, its like asking a drug addict to go cold turkey.  He needs help to reduce the numbers which is hard as it did come across like he was in denial about it. But maybe now he has the help of Michelle, which he maybe didn't have in 2009, who he does seem to allow to get close to him this might now start.


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## fburton (10 January 2013)

Moomin1 said:



			That was just ONE horse that was in that condition.  The ones in the footage were not those that were thin.
		
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Yes, I know that. Have you any knowledge of the fates of any of the horses signed over, or why they were thin compared to the ones in the footage? 




			This man had over 200 man hours of help and supervision by the RSPCA prior to having to resort to prosecuting him.  I personally think that is more than reasonable, and the line was drawn at the appropriate time.
		
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How would you like to see the situation go forward, speaking personally?


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## Floxie (10 January 2013)

Star_Chaser said:



			Nice article in the local papers online, Says Michelle Crowther, chair of the North East Wales Bridleways Association. 

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/n...e-pensioner-who-hoards-horses-91466-32547091/

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			Clwyd, who moved to the run down farm three years ago after being evicted from another farm when the number of his horses got out of control, admits he is depressed.

He said: Im loading the bullets to shoot myself.
		
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What?! He's not admitting he's depressed! He's talking about how he's funding the organisation that's trying to take away his horses by shopping in the RSPCA charity shop >.< Idiot journalist 

*grumbles*


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## LittleMonster (10 January 2013)

I watched the programme, and i think what he was doing wasn't cruel.. he feeds them and puts them before himself... he may be a horder but you dont see him hitting/racing/ecttt.

I do not think has done anything wrong as they are living partly wild? they have a field each other, the problem i saw was he might over breed (gielding is proberbly the best solution instead of taking them away as horses are becoming cheap/unwanted in the reseccion (SP)) Yes he didnt worm them but are they wormed in the wild? 

Michelle seems like she has her heard screwed on! And makes a good point who is going to want an old mare thats semi wild?? I think they will get on well, and i think they will do well togethor!
xx


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## Fenris (10 January 2013)

Moomin1 said:



			Hope that is of some help to some people. 

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Hope this will help some people too ;-)



PRESS RELEASE
For immediate release: 

(MIS)USE OF THE BODY CONDITION SCORING SYSTEM FOR HORSES

Over the past year, cases of alleged horse neglect have skyrocketed across the United States. I have been contacted by people from California to Maryland, from Minnesota to Texas, and from New York to Arizona. This phenomenon has reached epidemic proportions. Minnesota alone reportedly investigated almost 400 cases in 2011. Most of these can be attributed to the down economy and the drought making it difficult for horse owners to feed their horses like they would like to feed them. Therefore, we are seeing a lot more horses in below average body condition. That does not make every thin horse a neglected or abused horse.

Over the past decade, the Body Condition Scoring System for Horses (BCS) has become, in many if not most cases, the sole reason for seizure for neglect or abuse. The problem with this is that the BCS was not designed to reflect the health or well-being of the horse. The BCS provides an estimate of stored body fat, period. From a physiological standpoint, as long as a horse has any fat reserves and is receiving a diet that meets its daily maintenance requirements, that horse can be healthy.

For example, The Minimum Standards of Horse Care in the State of California (2011) arbitrarily indicates that any horse with a BCS of less than 3 does not meet the minimum standard. By definition, a BCS 3 horse still has reserves of body fat. Once a horse gets below a BCS 3, then reserves are low. However, the health of the horse is only in jeopardy if it is breaking down non-fat tissue to provide for its basic energy needs. The BCS cannot measure this function.

Breakdown of non-adipose tissue for energy can be evaluated through blood analysis focusing on liver and kidney function, and the breakdown of structural tissue for energy. Blood urea nitrogen, creatinine, and the ratio of blood urea nitrogen level to creatinine level are indicators of tissue breakdown. Analysis for hematocrit, serum concentrations of total protein solids, sodium, calcium, potassium, triglycerides, bilirubin, and albumin will also provide information concerning malnutrition and starvation. None of these tests are accurate on their own. However, evaluation of matching trends from the analysis can help confirm or disprove that the horse is nutritionally deprived.

In addition, the presence, or absence, of other physical indicators of inadequate energy intake should be used to evaluate alleged neglect. Energy deprived horses will be lethargic. Their reaction to stimuli will be depressed. They will usually show signs of dehydration: tacky gums, "tenting" of skin on the neck, concentrated urine with a very strong odor, and decreased fecal output. Coprophagy, the consumption of feces, is usually very pronounced in energy deprived horses, especially those kept in groups. Since energy deprivation is usually accompanied by protein deficits, the hair coat will dull and shaggy. It is imperative that a low BCS score be supported by other clinical signs of starvation to indicate nutritional neglect.

The presence, or absence, of feed and hay on the premises is an excellent indicator of the ability of the owner to meet the nutritional needs of their horses. If adequate feed and hay is present to meet the needs of the animals, then seizure is not warranted. Few, if any, horse owners will refuse to feed their horses if feed is available.

Adding to the problem is that many "evaluators" have not received any formal training in the application of the BCS. They do not understand the physiology of fat deposition and utilization, they are not knowledgeable in conformation and breed characteristics that will influence the BCS, and most often they have personal biases that lower their estimate. The BCS is designed as a ranking system. It was never designed to be exact and it cannot be exact because of differences in breeds, size, age, and conformation between horses. It is a guideline. If the average lay horse owner gets within 1 body condition score, plus or minus, of the horses actual condition, they are doing a good job. Seizing a horse based solely on an untrained person's estimated BCS is a very questionable practice.

I find it very disturbing that humane societies and local authorities have utilized the BCS in such a manner. There are definitely cases of neglect and abuse that need to be dealt with in a quick and decisive manner. However, care must be taken to be sure that the animals are truly being starved and that requires supporting evidence from their other physical parameters and blood analysis. My recommendation to all parties is that if neglect or abuse due to nutrition deprivation is suspected,

The evaluator must exhibit the ability to offer a trained, unbiased opinion based solely on the stored body fat of the animal. If seizure is to be considered, the evaluation of the animals by a qualified, impartial third person should be required.

A BCS of less than 3 is not cause for automatic seizure. The animals in question must exhibit altered metabolism confirmed by blood analysis or other physical signs consistent with malnutrition before they can be seized for inadequate body condition. If it is determined that the horse needs immediate attention, a veterinarian of the owner's choosing should provide those supporting procedures. These procedures may be done with supervision by the legal authorities.

Only horses exhibiting altered metabolism and having inadequate feed stores on the premises should be seized. Removing healthy horses from their home is not necessary and may often result in adverse consequences due to stress created by a new environment and untrained handlers.

If at all possible, the alleged neglected horses should remain at the owner's farm. Removing any horse from its familiar environment, drastically changing its diet, and exposing it to a new set of handlers will usually result in stress and a further loss of body condition. In the vast majority of cases, if the intent is truly the best care of the horse, that care can best be administered in familiar surroundings. If the legal authorities require, care can be conducted under their official guidance.

"Innocent until proven guilty" is the most abused legal standard in America today. Due to biased press coverage, most "trials" are conducted before the accused ever has a chance to answer the charges. Once a horse owner has been accused of neglect, they are stained for life. If they are later proven to be innocent, the public has already painted them with a negative picture. This should not happen. It is imperative that the state authorities demonstrate adequate cause for seizure. Unsupported claims of neglect against a horse owner should be followed by a vigorous public campaign by the state authorities criticizing the parties who have filed a frivolous claim and, if possible, such parties should be prosecuted by the state.

Author's Information:

Don Henneke, Ph.D., is currently the Director of Equine Science at Tarleton State University, Stephenville, TX. Dr. Henneke was the principal investigator in developing the Body Condition Scoring System for Horses at Texas A&M University in 1979.


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