# Amateur Riders How many are truly amateurs?



## littlemiss1 (2 November 2018)

Is it just me or is the term 'amateur' being thrown around a lot recently. I mean what is a true amateur rider? I see many riders out on the show circuit which claim to be amateurs but wouldn't fit into the societies rules of being an amateur, so how do they get away with it? it baffles me!


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## Red-1 (2 November 2018)

I am not into showing, so there probably is a "proper" definition that I won't know about where showing is concerned, but to me an amateur rider is one who does not make money from riding horses. This would mean a professional was a groom who rode as part of their duties, or a trainer who rides horses, or someone who backs and breaks horses as well as people who earn money from competing horses (as in a rider fee as opposed to purely winning some prize money). It would also include anyone who buys and sells, as in someone who buys one with the intention of schooling to make money on resale. 

It is a tough one, as I was someone who would not have fitted in as an amateur rider, as I earned my living riding horses, as well as freelancing training, but I always considered myself an amateur competitor as I only competed my own pet horses and could not see a stride for toffee!


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## milliepops (2 November 2018)

Like BP says I think different orgs have a different view on this. It's clear that BD have specifically not attempted to define amateurs vs pros and I think in some cases it's kind of irrelevant as a way of separating competitors into those who have an advantage from their set up and experience, compared to those who are trying to make it as a hobby... some hobby riders have more funds and time to buy good horses and have masses of training compared to a groom on minimum wage riding their hairy pony on their day off.


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## littlemiss1 (2 November 2018)

I couldn't agree more, I just cant see what a competitor would be gaining out of competing in amateur classes when they're being paid to ride that horse on that day in the amateur class.


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## paddi22 (2 November 2018)

We had to redo the rules completely in an eventing organisation this year to clarify what an amateur is.

It boiled down to not making an income from riding or training horses. You can't have a business website or facebook business page linked to your name either.  We had a grey area where people were riding a couple of pro horses from pro yards at events, so we had to widen it to say you couldn't ride a horse that a business benefited moneywise down the line.  We have to be strict on the 'not making an income from riding (bar race yards) be cause it defineitly gives someone who rides all day, and who has access to yards, arenas and horses on hand easily, a HUGE advantage, over someone who works at a desk all day and then has to commute an hour to ride their one horse.
To make it stricter we limited horses per person and also you have to be the passport owner of two of the horses.

we agonised for months over it but i think we got a fairly good system going forward


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## Bernster (2 November 2018)

I can see it being a minefield paddi22.  Also agree itâ€™s a very broad and vague category. I fit into the very much an amateur category but know of riders way out of my league who would prob also consider themselves to be amateurs.  Ours is an interesting sport in that comps and associations can cover the 1 day a week rider on one horse, to the Olympic level pro., riding in the same competition at times!


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## paddi22 (2 November 2018)

what was in interesting is that there's a certain level of people (and in my next life i want to be one!) who are very wealthy, don't work, and spend their time buying super high level horses and getting lessons all the time, with the pro riders riding them mid week. They technically are amateurs, but they have resources and time beyond an average amateur. But they are still eligible for the classes even though they could nearly be pro riders some of them. But they ride as a hobby and are amateurs like the rest of us.

There was also a group who might bring on and sell 6 or 7 horses a year, but be very low level riders in the scheme of things. they don't consider themselves brilliant. But we had to remove a few from classes this year as amateur classes are not about bringing horses through for sale (beyond the normal changing a horse midseason due to inury etc people might do). if money comes into it on any level I think a person shouldn't be in the class.


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## milliepops (2 November 2018)

paddi22 said:



			what was in interesting is that there's a certain level of people (and in my next life i want to be one!)...
		
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me too!  Where do we sign up!?

I suspect those are the main reason why BD could never go down a pro/amateur route tbh.


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## paddi22 (2 November 2018)

Does BD work the same way DI does? With the different categories of riders? Here there are three categories, and you mve up to the next one once you ride a certain level test. So once you do elementary you go to category two. So if you are only starting prelim say,  your reseults will be in the category one group, so you won't be up against superstar riders with young horses. I can see the logic in the system, but i prefer the way our organisation does it, as you aren't lumped in with pro riders at all.


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## DabDab (2 November 2018)

Yeah, it is a tricky one, and tbh I'm not sure the amateur/pro distinction is particularly useful as a way of trying to make competition fair, because there is such a large grey area.

I would say that a big section of amateur competitors are also 'previous pros' - they used to ride for a living but now don't and just have their own horse instead. And they have as much, if not more advantage over a true amateur as your average work groom or breaking in rider for example.


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## milliepops (2 November 2018)

paddi22 said:



			Does BD work the same way DI does? With the different categories of riders? Here there are three categories, and you mve up to the next one once you ride a certain level test. So once you do elementary you go to category two. So if you are only starting prelim say,  your reseults will be in the category one group, so you won't be up against superstar riders with young horses. I can see the logic in the system, but i prefer the way our organisation does it, as you aren't lumped in with pro riders at all.
		
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nope 
There are 3 streams at each level now, Bronze, Silver and Gold.
in theory Bronze is for people new to a level, as you can only gain a certain number of points at the level above before you get bumped out and into the silver section. Also in theory, gold is for very experienced riders.  The championships available differ for each section, silver has the most choice.
In practice there are so many ways to exploit the rules and loopholes that it doesn't work out the way it was intended. The silver section is a bit of a catch-all for people who have ridden themselves out of bronze and all but the very top top riders.  You have to do really quite well to get pushed into gold.  A lot of the restrictions are based on combinations of horse and rider, rather than just on riders.

It works for me as an amateur owner-rider, I am doing PSG bronze on one horse and can ride in Silver from novice upwards on my next project.  *I* know that I'm not a rising star at the FEI levels, so feel quite entitled to not have to ride Novice gold... but I'm not sure it would feel the same to someone just starting their novice silver journey.


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## Pinkvboots (2 November 2018)

The Arab society rules are quite strict you can't enter amateur classes in the same season if your horse is ridden/trained or stabled at a pro yard.


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## paddi22 (2 November 2018)

Is that a tough one to police though? For example, there's a few amateur riders that would be stabled at Killossery here, which is Ciaran Glynns yard. Technically it's a pro yard, but they would be amateur riders?  Would they be kicked out in the arab word, just really interested as it's good to hear what different socieites class as amateurs. So if someone is in ciaran glynns yard, but say, works as a nurse, but gets a lesson every two weeks off him, they would not ba amateurs in the arab societys eyes?


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## paddi22 (2 November 2018)

I thi nk eventing would find that hard to implement as nearly every amateur in ireland (including myself) would get training from Joseph Murphy, Sarah Ennis, sally Corscadden at some stages. And lot would go regularly enough.


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## Pinkvboots (2 November 2018)

paddi22 said:



			Is that a tough one to police though? For example, there's a few amateur riders that would be stabled at Killossery here, which is Ciaran Glynns yard. Technically it's a pro yard, but they would be amateur riders?  Would they be kicked out in the arab word, just really interested as it's good to hear what different socieites class as amateurs. So if someone is in ciaran glynns yard, but say, works as a nurse, but gets a lesson every two weeks off him, they would not ba amateurs in the arab societys eyes?
		
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It is hard to police but the Arab world is probably a very small affair compared to other societies, and I have known people to quite happily let a show know about such things that are going on.


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## Pinkvboots (2 November 2018)

I don't think that it's fair for judges to compete and ride in the same season the Arab horse society allow that.


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## paddi22 (2 November 2018)

You would always hope people have a sportsmanship ethos in the back of the their mind, but it's amazing some don't. I genuinely don't understand how people can enjoy some victories without feeling guilty.

For example, I competed a horse in the championships at 90s in the Riding Club  in 2015 here years ago and was beaten by a woman riding a horse who had gone around hickstead and won the year before in 2014.

https://www.theirishfield.ie/one-ey...kannan-wins-riding-club-one-day-event-189410/

It was such bad sportsmanship. i know the rider justified it by saying she wasn't a pro and was nervy, but on a horse that level it is totally unfair to put it in the class against normal horses, regardless of rider. if that was me and I had the ride on that horse I would have gone HC out of respect to other people in the class.


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## Elf On A Shelf (2 November 2018)

Pinkvboots said:



			I don't think that it's fair for judges to compete and ride in the same season the Arab horse society allow that.
		
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But if yok stopped judges competing you would have no judges left! 

In showing most rules day you can't make your income from show horses. Some go on to give further details. I am classed as an amateur for the majority of organisations but not SSADL because of my job. Racing is as far away from showing as you can get! But rules are rules and I very rarely, if ever compete in amateur sections anyway. 

Home Produced - that's another nightmare! Probably an even bigger one than amateur status!


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## humblepie (2 November 2018)

I compete under about 5 different organisations if not more and they all have different rules. Given that I sit at desk 35 hours a week, don't teach, don't get sponsored etc am definitely an amateur under all rules.  At a national showing championship a few years back someone I know who runs a large yard entered the home produced amateur.  I also agree that amateurs can be hugely different from people with full time jobs and a horse at DIY to those who have amazing facilities and staff or horses kept in pro yards.  There is a highly successful showing family who do not compete in Amateur classes since whilst they could do they feel it is not in the spirit given their set up and they should be applauded for that.  On the other hand, it is an amazing sport in that a grass root rider gets to compete against Olympic riders - used to love that back in the day when I was brave enough to jump Foxhunter classes.


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## humblepie (2 November 2018)

EKW said:



			Home Produced - that's another nightmare! Probably an even bigger one than amateur status!
		
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I always feel and i know some societies do that home produced should include DIY - on a show day it takes me 3/4 hour  to get from home, get the lorry from where that lives to get to the yard before I start doing anything - would love to walk out the front door to the horses!


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## paddi22 (2 November 2018)

humblepie said:



			On the other hand, it is an amazing sport in that a grass root rider gets to compete against Olympic riders - used to love that back in the day when I was brave enough to jump Foxhunter classes.
		
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Do BE run amateur only classes at all?


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## only_me (2 November 2018)

paddi22 said:



			what was in interesting is that there's a certain level of people (and in my next life i want to be one!) who are very wealthy, don't work, and spend their time buying super high level horses and getting lessons all the time, with the pro riders riding them mid week. They technically are amateurs, but they have resources and time beyond an average amateur. But they are still eligible for the classes even though they could nearly be pro riders some of them. But they ride as a hobby and are amateurs like the rest of us.

There was also a group who might bring on and sell 6 or 7 horses a year, but be very low level riders in the scheme of things. they don't consider themselves brilliant. But we had to remove a few from classes this year as amateur classes are not about bringing horses through for sale (beyond the normal changing a horse midseason due to inury etc people might do). if money comes into it on any level I think a person shouldn't be in the class.
		
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I love the EI amateur classes, hoping to get back when have the time lol. What annoys me though is there are 3 specific riders who ride in the amateur classes yet clearly have a job derived from making money in horses just not riding, they have facebook pages yet still in those classes. One even buys and sells regularly as well!


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## paddi22 (2 November 2018)

only_me said:



			I love the EI amateur classes, hoping to get back when have the time lol. What annoys me though is there are 3 specific riders who ride in the amateur classes yet clearly have a job derived from making money in horses just not riding, they have facebook pages yet still in those classes. One even buys and sells regularly as well!
		
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we are hoping to change that this year. there will be an application form people will have to fill in. That issue pf people producing comes up all the time, but we can only look into people if others raise they issue. we moved a good few people out of class this year once people queries them. it's fairly easy to find out online if someone is taking the piss. If you wanted to pm me any names in private I can keep them on the radar. We do want to make the classes fair for everyone.


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## only_me (2 November 2018)

paddi22 said:



			we are hoping to change that this year. there will be an application form people will have to fill in. That issue pf people producing comes up all the time, but we can only look into people if others raise they issue. we moved a good few people out of class this year once people queries them. it's fairly easy to find out online if someone is taking the piss. If you wanted to pm me any names in private I can keep them on the radar. We do want to make the classes fair for everyone.
		
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Producing is different I agree, most people here will have a young one to bring on and sell but as a hobby rather than main income. I think as long as they donâ€™t do it as their primary job/income or they donâ€™t churn out multiple lots itâ€™s ok. 
Itâ€™s a diffferent â€œindustryâ€ to BE I suppose as well, but I love the amateur classes as they are so much fun and very very competitive lol


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## Pinkvboots (2 November 2018)

EKW said:



			But if yok stopped judges competing you would have no judges left!

In showing most rules day you can't make your income from show horses. Some go on to give further details. I am classed as an amateur for the majority of organisations but not SSADL because of my job. Racing is as far away from showing as you can get! But rules are rules and I very rarely, if ever compete in amateur sections anyway.

Home Produced - that's another nightmare! Probably an even bigger one than amateur status!
		
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I know but one week your being judged by so and so then the next week your in the line up with them, I just don't think you should be allowed to judge and compete in the same class in the same season, it just doesn't seem fair to me I am a total amateur and it's quite hoarse to be judged by someone then have to compete with them.


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## Pinkvboots (2 November 2018)

It was harsh not hoarse!


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## be positive (2 November 2018)

Pinkvboots said:



			I know but one week your being judged by so and so then the next week your in the line up with them, I just don't think you should be allowed to judge and compete in the same class in the same season, it just doesn't seem fair to me I am a total amateur and it's quite hoarse to be judged by someone then have to compete with them.
		
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You would find far less people choosing to judge if they could not also compete and over time the judges still on the circuit would be getting older and older or they would come in from a different background and may not have the in depth knowledge of the breed that someone who is also competing at top level should have.

Having competed in many different spheres it is not unusual to be against an Olympic medalist at a local unaff event and it can be inspiring for younger riders to compete on level terms with their heroes, albeit on a novice horse not the Olympic one but it may be the next top horse.


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## Fiona (2 November 2018)

paddi22 said:



			we are hoping to change that this year. there will be an application form people will have to fill in. That issue pf people producing comes up all the time, but we can only look into people if others raise they issue. we moved a good few people out of class this year once people queries them. it's fairly easy to find out online if someone is taking the piss. If you wanted to pm me any names in private I can keep them on the radar. We do want to make the classes fair for everyone.
		
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I certainly don't get how professional riders wives can ride in amateur classes....

Fiona


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## Pinkvboots (2 November 2018)

Yes I agree


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## paddi22 (2 November 2018)

yeah thats another can of worms. hypothetically of course, that might  have been queried and apparently if people say they aren't paid and give excuses  then its very hard to pull up on as techically they are amateurs. and hypothetically id imagine theres certain folk that are beyond our reach to pull up. but i agree with you


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## nikkimariet (4 November 2018)

littlemiss1 said:



			I couldn't agree more, I just cant see what a competitor would be gaining out of competing in amateur classes when they're being paid to ride that horse on that day in the amateur class.
		
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I've been paid to compete other people's horses but I'm very much an amateur!


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## only_me (4 November 2018)

nikkimariet said:



			I've been paid to compete other people's horses but I'm very much an amateur!
		
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But by automatically accepting payment for riding those horses in a competition you are no longer an amateur - you become the rider for the owner of the horse. 

You mightn't be a complete pro but I don't think someone being paid to ride someone else's horse should be in an amateur class.


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## paddi22 (4 November 2018)

only_me said:



			But by automatically accepting payment for riding those horses in a competition you are no longer an amateur - you become the rider for the owner of the horse.

You mightn't be a complete pro but I don't think someone being paid to ride someone else's horse should be in an amateur class.
		
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totally agree, once money comes into it a rider shouldn't be in an amateur class. If you are good enough to be paid, you are good enought to go against other riders who are paid.


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## paddi22 (4 November 2018)

a true amateur is someone who has a non horsey riding  job, and just competes a horse or two for the fun. Once anyone starts paying riders, or riding horses that are for sale, or benefiting from competing in an 'easier' class than the pro class then i think you lose the ethos of amateur classes.


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## Ambers Echo (5 November 2018)

It is really tricky and I am not  sure you will ever find a fair way by dividing people into Amateur or Pro?
I know pros who are up at 5am to ride their 1 or 2 home produced horse and who then fund it by teaching all  day long who have far less time to ride, far fewer facilities and far fewer lessons than many amateurs. I also know amateurs as described above (me too please!!) who are on full livery on pro yards with amazing facilities and top pro riders on hand and are at training clinics all the time. And who buy fabulous horses!

In some sports once you qualify for more senior classes then you  have to compete in them. You can't drop down again unless you have a season without reaching those levels again. When I see people winning BE80 classes on a 22 DC I think that might be a good system! If you win 3 80Ts or score a certain standard perhaps you then HAVE to step up to 90? And do the same at all levels? And in some spprts you are penalised for being too good for the level you have entered. In swimming for example you get 'Speeding Tickets' if you go too fast at the level you are at and won't win. So there is no point entering events that are below your true level.


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## paddi22 (5 November 2018)

i always wonder would a handicap system, like golf has, ever work? Based on a horse/rider combination.


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## littlemiss1 (5 November 2018)

It really is very interesting to read peoples views and also the different societies rulings on amateur status. In my opinion, if you earn money from horses whether thats a full income or just being paid to ride, produce, teach or show someones horse surely that takes you out of the amateur category. The definition of amateur is 'a person who engages in a pursuit, especially a sport, on an unpaid basis' 

Interestingly over the weekend reading a showing magazine, in one article someone was described as being part of an amateur team who worked as 'just a hairdresser'. In another article in the same magazine was the same person being described as a 'top producer with over 20 years experience'. Now surely with over 20 years of producing horses and still producing to HOYS winning level they have received some kind of payment for this, therefore they wouldn't be an amateur?


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## nikkimariet (5 November 2018)

only_me said:



			But by automatically accepting payment for riding those horses in a competition you are no longer an amateur - you become the rider for the owner of the horse.

You mightn't be a complete pro but I don't think someone being paid to ride someone else's horse should be in an amateur class.
		
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Which is exactly my point?

I don't make my living from horses. But I do make money from them. I have a full time job in a very different industry.

So if I'm not a pro. And I'm not an amateur. So where do I fit?

I most certainly wouldn't compete against people I teach and as it is I'm gold all the way up to AM now. But does that mean it's fair for me to compete against CDJ? It's an honour (even just to share the warm up with her!). 

But I think the middle ground of competing is shockingly open with a good number of people that really shouldn't be competing below PSG let alone below Medium.


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## paddi22 (5 November 2018)

nikkimariet said:



			Which is exactly my point?

I don't make my living from horses. But I do make money from them. I have a full time job in a very different industry.

So if I'm not a pro. And I'm not an amateur. So where do I fit?
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if you make income from horses on any level then you cannot be truly an amateur.  if you are good enough to be paid, then you are in a different class to other amateurs.


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## annunziata (5 November 2018)

I have found this thread super interesting.  I do believe that anyone who makes money from horses as a business is a profession no matter how they ride.  For example my friend and her other half have a business and they profit from horses.  She is unable to attend the sunshine tour as a result and I feel that is completely fair as it is for amateurs.  I struggle when you see professional people even at riding clubs competing as I feel that this is also for amateurs??


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## Tiddlypom (5 November 2018)

Why isn't it fair to compete against CDJ? I don't get this attitude at all. Back in the day when I did BD, the pros could come out from Elementary upwards and all the classes were open. Hence me and my little ex RS cob lining up against Stephen Clarke and Eternal Spirit (a future international GP horse) in our first elementary. We'd never have beaten them, but we gave them a close run for their money and came 2nd, which meant far more to me than winning a restricted class.

So this whole thing of bronze, silver and gold sections seems like dumbing down to me. Let us all aim high.


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## Chuckieee (5 November 2018)

The Petplan Area festivals were always marketed as the championships for the amateurs and look how that has turned out. You have professional combinations clearing up at the winters then coming out at the same level AF in the summer.....clearing up again.....

Yes it is all within the rules but itâ€™s so expensive to compete at these championships that it really disincentives a true amateur who is really there just making up numbers. 

TIDDLYPOM I do get what you say but if you were in the open then it wasnâ€™t your first Ele presumably?  Had it been your first ever Ele and due to the rules, you found yourself in the same class as Stephen Clarke for the season or maybe more then you might feel a bit disengaged especially in those days when it was the wins that got you through to the Regionals. Iâ€™m just trying to give you an insight into how it feels from the amateurâ€™s perspective. 

PS Iâ€™d have been proud as punch in that line up too ðŸ¤—


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## Tiddlypom (5 November 2018)

Chuckieee, yes it was my first ever Elementary test on any horse, and it was my second year of affiliated competiton. This was in the mid 80s, when all classes from Elementary upwards were open. Additionally, points then were only given on placings, not %'s, with 7 points for a win down to 1 for 7th place.

I'm very much an amateur, I've never been paid for anything to do with horses even when helping with transport or clipping, let alone doing any teaching or dealing .


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## be positive (5 November 2018)

In the "old days" all classes were open whether you had competed at that level before or not, much the same as eventing which apart from the lowest levels are open to all, you may well be against the very top riders in the world in your section there are no special classes for pros or amateurs.


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## milliepops (5 November 2018)

These days though, the pro horses are streets ahead, well, light years ahead, of what many amateur dressage bods are riding.
It's almost a different sport. I end up at the same shows as CDJ now and then, I only live 20 mins drive away after all... even when she's riding at the lower levels, what she does and what most of the rest of us do, is just so different, lol.  I do support the different streams of competition, they aren't perfect, no, but I don't think someone starting out at their first shows on their home produced pony should be up against Olympians and Olympic quality horses, it was a good move IMO.


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## Bernster (5 November 2018)

Also been following with interest.  Chuckâ€™s post reminded me of the winner of the Chiltern and Thames dressage comp this year, which I think is also intended to be an amateur event. It was either intro or Prelim, I canâ€™t remember (think intro) which was won by a powerhouse of a horse, and a very accomplished rider riding for the owner.  They were both streets ahead of what Iâ€™d think of as an amateur, but I never really thought about it at the time as they were in a different class to me.


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## SpringArising (5 November 2018)

paddi22 said:



			if you make income from horses on any level then you cannot be truly an amateur.  if you are good enough to be paid, then you are in a different class to other amateurs.
		
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Hmm, not so sure. There's an instructor local to me who has all the relevant teaching qualifications and is very well liked, as she is supposedly a good confidence giver, but if you were to look at _her_ ride, IMO you would not think of her as good enough to be teaching other people, IF those people wanted anything other than an eye on the ground going over the very basics. 

I think you can be a good coach without being a good rider, and vice versa.


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## Chuckieee (5 November 2018)

Tiddlypom said:



			Chuckieee, yes it was my first ever Elementary test on any horse, and it was my second year of affiliated competiton. This was in the mid 80s, when all classes from Elementary upwards were open. Additionally, points then were only given on placings, not %'s, with 7 points for a win down to 1 for 7th place.

I'm very much an amateur, I've never been paid for anything to do with horses even when helping with transport or clipping, let alone doing any teaching or dealing .
		
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Crikey I think that was when people were made of tougher stuff. Fancy having to compete against someone like that in a first test at a level!!

I completely accept there is a lot of pandering in todayâ€™s world.


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## BunnyDog (5 November 2018)

OMG you guys. I thought the US amateur rules were bad enough, we REALLY have problems with violations. But I see the same excuses on this thread that we get. 

In America we call those folks "Shamateurs."  They teach some lessons but 'not enough to be a pro' without grasping that even accepting a dollar makes you a pro. Period. It's a well defined as being pregnant or not. You are or you aren't. Simple as that. 

But in the USA we have all sorts of unusual things an amateur is permitted to do versus not. 

I'm linking our rules so you can see:

https://www.usef.org/forms-pubs/nT3TlM3v0NA/gr13-competition-participants-and

This starts at page 228, go to page 236, rule 1306 and rule 1307. 

We all know it's a flawed rule. But it's the best we have so far. 

Em


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## paddi22 (5 November 2018)

SpringArising said:



			Hmm, not so sure. There's an instructor local to me who has all the relevant teaching qualifications and is very well liked, as she is supposedly a good confidence giver, but if you were to look at _her_ ride, IMO you would not think of her as good enough to be teaching other people, IF those people wanted anything other than an eye on the ground going over the very basics.

I think you can be a good coach without being a good rider, and vice versa.
		
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But you have to draw a line somewhere. And money coming into it is where we drew ours.

And in the example nikki marriet gave where she was paid to ride a horse in a class - personally I think it's slightly  unsportsmanlike of the owner  to enter their horse in a class of other amateurs who DIDN'T have paid riders riding them. The ethos of amateur classes is for people to have fun and enjoy their own horses, not pay riders to get results for them. And if the horse was being schooled round a course, no reason why putting it in the non-am classes in the same level  would make a difference to the horses expereince of the day. But if it WASN'T just a schooling thing, and the owner wanted to achieve a certain score or placing, then its totally unfair to pay a rider to do it.


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## Chuckieee (5 November 2018)

BD have come up with a series of championships that get a load of stick. People cuss them as championships for championshipsake. People downplay them by saying there is a championship for any Tom Dick or Harry.....

But guess what.........

Theyâ€™re great fun. They give amateurs something to aim for and they generate good income for BD. I really donâ€™t think they dump down the sport and it gets more people motivated and signing up. I think itâ€™s a great move by BD. However I should add that at the moment, the true pros havenâ€™t got wind of them and I havenâ€™t seen too much pot hunting yet, although this series is not specifically aimed at amateurs so time will tell.


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## Bernster (5 November 2018)

I loved hickstead sunshine tour for that reason.  Didnâ€™t feel out of place although ofc there were some impressive combinations, and I really enjoyed it.


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## milliepops (5 November 2018)

Chuckieee said:



			BD have come up with a series of championships that get a load of stick. People cuss them as championships for championshipsake. People downplay them by saying there is a championship for any Tom Dick or Harry.....

But guess what.........

Theyâ€™re great fun. They give amateurs something to aim for and they generate good income for BD. I really donâ€™t think they dump down the sport and it gets more people motivated and signing up. I think itâ€™s a great move by BD. However I should add that at the moment, the true pros havenâ€™t got wind of them and I havenâ€™t seen too much pot hunting yet, although this series is not specifically aimed at amateurs so time will tell.
		
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couldn't agree more 
Looking forward to my 3rd trip to the Native champs in a fortnight, it's a fab show and what I REALLY like it that it goes up to PSG which gives those of us on stumpy hairy steeds a high goal to go at, where you don't feel like  you're at a huge disadvantage just because you ride a pony   Probably most high level pros wouldn't bother to ride these types of horses so to a degree I think they will remain amateur type comps.  (maybe not strictly by definition, but i very much doubt we're going to see the likes of CDJ steal the prizes, more likely the BHSAI or livery yard owner type of pro.  )


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## AdorableAlice (5 November 2018)

There one thing for sure, there is nothing more satisfying than producing your own horse out of a shed in the back of beyond and beating a pro !

We did just that and Mr Oliver was overheard moaning about 'bloody amateurs taking the prizes'.  I had a wry smile to stay the very least.


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## Ambers Echo (6 November 2018)

paddi22 said:



			i always wonder would a handicap system, like golf has, ever work? Based on a horse/rider combination.
		
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My son plays tennis and you get a ranking - even as an entry level amateur. Wins increase your ranking and losses lower it. You can then choose appropriate tournaments if you want to.


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## be positive (6 November 2018)

Ambers Echo said:



			My son plays tennis and you get a ranking - even as an entry level amateur. Wins increase your ranking and losses lower it. You can then choose appropriate tournaments if you want to.
		
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Isn't this what BD are doing by having the gold, silver and bronze sections plus the numerous other championships, I cannot see it working for eventing because there are too many variables to take into account, many riders, and horses, have limitations and could not move up through the levels beyond a certain point, for some 90 may be as far as they can go.

In a way I do feel that after winning a certain amount there should be rules in place to make them move on but equally I know that for many it would be impossible and stop them being able to compete, the only option I can see would be more open classes so once the rider has won ?? FP they have to compete in opens if they don't want to move up.

The main difference with eventing and other sports is the safety aspect, if a horse lacks scope it is not safe to move on whereas in other sports is just means you do less well but no one is at any real risk if the competitor is not good enough at the level.


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## Ambers Echo (6 November 2018)

I know nothing about DB but that sounds good. 

I agree with the difficulties in eventing. If 90 is your limit but you can win at 90 with a 19 dressage (as a friend of a friend did last year on a dressage horse who can jump a bit), then where can you go if that win disqualifies you from further 90s. I hadn't thought of that! Yes more open classes would be good. 

NSEA has the 30 cm rule which stops anyone who has showjumped a metre competing at 70cm. This stops super-duper ponies dropping down to 70 to qualify for the Champs although how well policed it is, I don't know.


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## showjumpingharry (6 November 2018)

I don't understand home produced, so I no longer go in it as my younger sister and I both have schooled and competed ponies for friends, but not been paid for it. For one pony, my sister gets presents and photos at shows and gets to keep any prize money. We weren't sure so now we just don't do it. However I know several people who have their ponies schooled by other people then enter home produced and win. Someone down here lost their RI ticket because of this a few years ago.


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## littlemiss1 (6 November 2018)

showjumpingharry said:



			I don't understand home produced, so I no longer go in it as my younger sister and I both have schooled and competed ponies for friends, but not been paid for it. For one pony, my sister gets presents and photos at shows and gets to keep any prize money. We weren't sure so now we just don't do it. However I know several people who have their ponies schooled by other people then enter home produced and win. Someone down here lost their RI ticket because of this a few years ago.
		
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So how i read the home produced ruling to be was that the horse needs to be kept on either DIY livery or at your own private yard. You can have lessons with professionals but the horse must stay at either DIY or own private yard. In terms of amateur i believe you can not keep the prize money as that would belong to the owner and would be seen as payment for the ride. In addition any form of gift or payments toward travel, lorry hire, diesel, riding attire or any expense for riding a horse can also be seen as payment for riding.


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## hati (6 November 2018)

its such a grey area the amateur  / non-amateur and there will always be violations. I am well aware of the hard work that the amateur eventing in Ireland have done to try and tighten the rules and make it fair to all. 
I don't think you will ever get it right....for example my best friend has 1 horse at 3*, she works full time and has just had a baby? Is she an amateur, I would say yes, but the rules would say no if she ever gets another horse. 
I think the amateur v non-amateur issue arises more at the lower levels rather than higher levels and sometimes you have the make the decision whether to move up and try a higher level and forgo your amateur status -this is something I may face next season.....hopefully anyway


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## showjumpingharry (6 November 2018)

littlemiss1 said:



			So how i read the home produced ruling to be was that the horse needs to be kept on either DIY livery or at your own private yard. You can have lessons with professionals but the horse must stay at either DIY or own private yard. In terms of amateur i believe you can not keep the prize money as that would belong to the owner and would be seen as payment for the ride. In addition any form of gift or payments toward travel, lorry hire, diesel, riding attire or any expense for riding a horse can also be seen as payment for riding.
		
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Ah thank you littlemiss, Mine are on DIY livery, so that's ok, but as she gets stuff from riding the pony she is now a "professional"? It's all really confusing, so I figured that if we go in opens with all the pros then we don't have this problem lol


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## littlemiss1 (6 November 2018)

It's seems very strange but yes technically they have received "payment" for riding. I tend to stick to the open classes but in many of the open classes they also have the highest placed amateur award and also highest placed home produced award.


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## daffy44 (6 November 2018)

I am very glad BD dont divide classes between amateur and pro, as I think its a very skewed way to separate people, and no promise of fair competition.  As an example I can describe two people I know personally, who demonstrate this perfectly:

Amateur rider: Wealthy person, has two horses, each horse cost between Â£50 - Â£80K, kept on full livery in an all singing all dancing yard with every facility known to man (or horse), very frequent lessons with superstar dressage pro who also competed the horses when they were younger, also frequent boot camps with said pro, posh lorry, a couple of six month sabbaticals taken from the non horsey job to concentrate on riding, training and competing.

Professional rider: Works all the hours possible teaching in a riding school, mainly teaching children their up downs, horse kept on basic yard, outdoor school, no lights, horse bought for 1K as a yearling, no help, very few lessons as struggling to afford lessons, no transport of their own, can borrow friends trailer when friend not using it.

Both lovely people, and I think good examples of why I believe BD wise not to divide classes this way.


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## only_me (6 November 2018)

daffy44 said:



			I am very glad BD dont divide classes between amateur and pro, as I think its a very skewed way to separate people, and no promise of fair competition.  As an example I can describe two people I know personally, who demonstrate this perfectly:

Amateur rider: Wealthy person, has two horses, each horse cost between Â£50 - Â£80K, kept on full livery in an all singing all dancing yard with every facility known to man (or horse), very frequent lessons with superstar dressage pro who also competed the horses when they were younger, also frequent boot camps with said pro, posh lorry, a couple of six month sabbaticals taken from the non horsey job to concentrate on riding, training and competing.

Professional rider: Works all the hours possible teaching in a riding school, mainly teaching children their up downs, horse kept on basic yard, outdoor school, no lights, horse bought for 1K as a yearling, no help, very few lessons as struggling to afford lessons, no transport of their own, can borrow friends trailer when friend not using it.

Both lovely people, and I think good examples of why I believe BD wise not to divide classes this way.
		
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No one makes you enter an amateur class, you have the option to do normal or amateur. I've competed in the past in standard eventing classes and beaten plenty of pros. I've also had more competition in an amateur class ie. harder to win. 
Its completely up to you what class you enter, you don't have to compete in amateurs if don't want to!


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## daffy44 (6 November 2018)

only_me said:



			No one makes you enter an amateur class, you have the option to do normal or amateur. I've competed in the past in standard eventing classes and beaten plenty of pros. I've also had more competition in an amateur class ie. harder to win.
Its completely up to you what class you enter, you don't have to compete in amateurs if don't want to!
		
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Neither of those people were me!  I was just using them as example of the two extremes within amateur and professional.


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## milliepops (6 November 2018)

only_me said:



			No one makes you enter an amateur class, you have the option to do normal or amateur. I've competed in the past in standard eventing classes and beaten plenty of pros. I've also had more competition in an amateur class ie. harder to win.
Its completely up to you what class you enter, you don't have to compete in amateurs if don't want to!
		
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I think daffy's point is that the amateur she has described may well want to compete in an amateur section as it's within the rules, and they stand every chance of clearing up the prizes, given the enormous advantage they have over more "normal" amateur hobby riders.  And the pro has very little in common with most of the pro riders that do well at the major shows, it's in no way an even slightly level playing field.

My background is also eventing, I remember the pride of finishing ahead of a pro on a nice horse but I really think in eventing there are more variables that take some of the pro-advantage out of the equation.


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## daffy44 (6 November 2018)

milliepops said:



			I think daffy's point is that the amateur she has described may well want to compete in an amateur section as it's within the rules, and they stand every chance of clearing up the prizes, given the enormous advantage they have over more "normal" amateur hobby riders.  And the pro has very little in common with most of the pro riders that do well at the major shows, it's in no way an even slightly level playing field.

My background is also eventing, I remember the pride of finishing ahead of a pro on a nice horse but I really think in eventing there are more variables that take some of the pro-advantage out of the equation.
		
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Thank you MP, thats exactly what I meant, you put it much better than I did.


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## Bernster (6 November 2018)

I get that.  But as with any set of rules or restrictions, youâ€™ll always get folks on the extreme end of the range.  Doesnâ€™t mean we shouldnâ€™t have them, just that itâ€™s tough to draw a line where everyone will agree.  I still think itâ€™s good to have a line drawn and seek to get the best balance you can within reason.  I donâ€™t envy those who attempt it though!


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## only_me (6 November 2018)

daffy44 said:



			Neither of those people were me!  I was just using them as example of the two extremes within amateur and professional.
		
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No I knew you didn't mean you, I just meant that there may be amateur and normal classes but you (as in anyone) can enter either if not a pro!

There are of course plenty of variables; it also can work in the professionals favour having amateur eventing classes, as they will have their babies out at the lower levels and stand a better chance of a high placing if the more established ones at that level ie. amateurs have their own class. Then if they have a few wins or places under the young horses belts they can add a few more zeros to the price!

Can't control what someone earns or has access to, but generally horses are quite good levellers in the scheme of things lol. They are still amateurs.


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## Chuckieee (6 November 2018)

Itâ€™s funny but (and not so funny) that the example described above of a wealthy amateur in dressage is not as extreme as you would imagine. 

A friend of mine conducted a survey which was taken in confidence. She surveyed amateur competitors across Prelim and Novice only. She only questioned 1000 people and the large majority were not even working, supported by husbands or wives or parents. And the amount that they spent on their hobby was incredible. It really was. 

Recently I saw a post on FB and it was asking how much people spent on various forms of therapy for themselves.  I was astonished how many prelim and Novice amateur attended sport massage, reiki, Bowenâ€™s, hot stone, aromatherapy etc more than once a week!  Itâ€™s no wonder non horsy people see anyth8ng equestrian as elitist!  For that reason, I would agree with Daffy that dividing amateurs and pros is much more difficult that you would think!

Anyway just off for my Indian head massage ............ðŸ˜‚


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## milliepops (6 November 2018)

Amazing, chuckieee. If you stop to think about it, that's also a little depressing!  I'm super super lucky that my OH shoes and makes hay for my horses, saves me a big wedge every month and basically allows me to run 2. But OMG what I'd give to live that lifestyle instead of borrowing money to pay for my 25 year old horsebox and bedsit rent!   Lol!  If you don't laugh you cry ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ 
Think I'll book in for some reiki, they won't mind if I pay with monopoly money, right?  ðŸ˜


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## MagicMelon (6 November 2018)

I personally dont think of someone as being particularily benefited by riding a few horses a few times a week for some cash, I dont see why they should be deemed as better riders than those who only have their own horse to ride... It would be better if it were means tested!  Obviously if you're rich, you have massive benefits - amazing horses (and as many of them as you like), great facilities, loads of training etc. They're going to have far more of an advantage over your usual mum or full time worker who can only afford one horse (and not an expensive one), who cant afford even a school to ride in, cant afford loads of training etc. I fall in the latter but to be honest at the end of the day, everyone messes up sometimes or every horse has a bad day so IMO it really doesnt matter.


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## only_me (6 November 2018)

See I think I am fine with riding a couple of other peoples horses during the week for money yet person to still be an amateur, as long as they have a main non-horsey job.
However I don't think someone should ride those horses that they are being paid to ride in an amateur competition.
Ride your own horse in the amateurs classes and compete the other horses (ie. Paid rides) in the normal classes. Seems fair enough to me and still lets the amateur ride their own horse.

Here we only really have amateur eventing (to novice) and amateur showjumping (incredibly competitive, go like a bat out of hell, 1m, 1.10m - the top amateur horses sell for a lot of Â£Â£Â£Â£) but dressage and showing has no division!

the silver/bronze thing in BD sound like a good idea, are those just at champs or at local aff comps?


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## milliepops (6 November 2018)

Bronze/silver/gold applies at all the normal local aff shows as well as determining which champs you can aim for.
It's not perfect by any means.  But imo the principle is right.


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## nikkimariet (8 November 2018)

paddi22 said:



			if you make income from horses on any level then you cannot be truly an amateur.  if you are good enough to be paid, then you are in a different class to other amateurs.
		
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There's a first for being in the same league as CDJ but I never thought it would be HHO deciding it!


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## BunnyDog (8 November 2018)

I know I'm in America, so please take what I have to say with a grain of salt, the taking money thing is very much the line in the sand here. I cannot be paid to lunge a horse for someone without it technically violating my amateur status here. I have no idea if it's the same there but I recognize the intents of the rules and since I very much WANT to participate in the Ammy classes, I am vigilant about not violating things. 

Now the kicker is that to file a complaint with US Equestrian to let them know of a person violating the ammy rules, you, the notifier, must put up $200 to file the complaint. (Which will be refunded to you if found to be accurate, but will not if found to be unsubstantiated) and you have to be able to prove that they are in violation. 

I am always surprised when I hear people say "Oh but I don't ride well enough to be considered a pro. I just needed to be paid for my time/petrol/etc" newsflash...that IS being a professional. In any career. 

Em


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## only_me (8 November 2018)

nikkimariet said:



			There's a first for being in the same league as CDJ but I never thought it would be HHO deciding it!
		
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Lol don't get cross that someone doesn't agree that you should be being paid to ride someone else's horse in an amateur class. In fact paddy is one of those who help write the amateur rules for eventing. 

No one said you were a professional but majority of people agreed the above. Someone being paid to ride a horse should not be in an amateur class. Ride your own in it, but not someone else's for money.


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## PaddyMonty (8 November 2018)

The problem with saying being paid to compete a horse makes you a pro is difficult to define. In the strictest sense I have never been paid to compete a horse but all the owners of the horses I competed paid ALL the expenses including hotels at stop over comps. So although I didn't receive payment to actually ride I did get to ride for nothing with all training paid for etc. Does that make me a pro?
Tricky isn't it.
ADVERTISEMENT​


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## paddi22 (8 November 2018)

PaddyMonty said:



			The problem with saying being paid to compete a horse makes you a pro is difficult to define. In the strictest sense I have never been paid to compete a horse but all the owners of the horses I competed paid ALL the expenses including hotels at stop over comps. So although I didn't receive payment to actually ride I did get to ride for nothing with all training paid for etc. Does that make me a pro?
Tricky isn't it.
		
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We discussed this as a grey area that comes up.  The consensus was that if a business was benefiting from the horse being ridden in an amateur class then it was against the ethos of the amateur spirit. So the rider might be an amateur, but the rider/horse combination isn't I personally don't think its fair for businesses to use the amateur classes to add value to horses who will later be for sale. that's not a level playing field if you are competing against someone riding their own horse year after year.  

With the very wealthy vs normal wage debate, there was no clear way to police this in reality even if you brought it in. You would have to get a copy of peoples wage slips or tax returns, it would be a nightmare!


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## Red-1 (8 November 2018)

What about someone who used to be paid, but now is not? How long do they have to ride as a hobby before no longer being a pro?


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## paddi22 (8 November 2018)

Red-1 said:



			What about someone who used to be paid, but now is not? How long do they have to ride as a hobby before no longer being a pro?
		
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i think it would have to be on a case by case basis. A small pro giving up after an injury would be different than william fox pitt decided to go amateur after a year!


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## paddi22 (8 November 2018)

MagicMelon said:



			I personally dont think of someone as being particularily benefited by riding a few horses a few times a week for some cash, I dont see why they should be deemed as better riders than those who only have their own horse to ride... It would be better if it were means tested!  Obviously if you're rich, you have massive benefits - amazing horses (and as many of them as you like), great facilities, loads of training etc. They're going to have far more of an advantage over your usual mum or full time worker who can only afford one horse (and not an expensive one), who cant afford even a school to ride in, cant afford loads of training etc. I fall in the latter but to be honest at the end of the day, everyone messes up sometimes or every horse has a bad day so IMO it really doesnt matter.
		
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I think the reality of life is that some people will always have more resources/luck/facilities than others. And that occurs in the pro classes too, some have huge backers and some struggle on their own. But theres no fair way to police how wealthy a person is and eliminate them from a class because of that. What figure would you pick? How would you police it?  Theres no way of doing it.   All you can do is put in some kind of way to police it if people buy a super amazing horse and then go out and win every single week. And even that's a tough one to police, because there's a fine line between someone just being very good and having a great run and someone who is obviously too good for a class. It's a very grey area to pin down.


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## Otherwise (9 November 2018)

I don't think an amateur rule would make that much difference in dressage, having worked as a groom on a dressage yard it's really opened my eyes on not only how wealthy some people are but also how many are. Income would be a better leveller but then a lot of the rich amateur women are housewives!


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## Bernster (9 November 2018)

Iâ€™m on a pretty smart yard but I donâ€™t think I realised all these Uber wealthy horse folks were about!  A system that grades by results would help though wouldnâ€™t it, to try and even out the levels at which people are riding?  Which is what most of them try to do I assume, in BD BE or whatever, just to varying degrees.

Not so sure about unaff as itâ€™s run by more groups, but they do have certain criteria for moving up and out of a level. Not that thatâ€™s ever impacted me much, bobbling along at the lower levels !


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## DabDab (9 November 2018)

I agree with above (tried to quote but stupid ad popped up), that dressage have the right idea in that they are trying to classify competitors based on competition experience in that discipline, rather and amateur and pro, which is very arbitrary.



milliepops said:



			Bronze/silver/gold applies at all the normal local aff shows as well as determining which champs you can aim for.
It's not perfect by any means.  But imo the principle is right.
		
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## sportsmansB (9 November 2018)

I ride in amateur classes in EI and would consider myself to be a 'true' amateur- I work 50 hours a week in a non horsey job and have one horse. I do keep that horse at a pro yard - but that's partly because I work 50 hours a week and I need an indoor and a walker- no one else rides him for me (unless they get customers in who want to buy a just backed 4yo but look like idiots, in which case my horse is used as a tester in case they really can't ride so they don''t get ditched ).
I would be genuinely devastated if I was told that I couldn't do amateurs because of where I keep him or because I am lucky enough to have good trainers. 

I do find it hard to swallow the amateurs who don't actually have a job - having three or four horses to ride each day kinda is a job, even if they belong to you and you're just loaded - but I always told myself it was just jealousy! I don't know how we could word a rule to keep them out though, as they don't derive income from their horses but being able to ride several horses every day undoubtedly gives you an advantage over those of us who get an hour in the evening after 10 hours at work!

I very strongly feel that no one in an amateur class should make money from horses - whether that is through being paid for rides, owning a livery yard, teaching or whatever.


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## paddi22 (9 November 2018)

Yeah sportsmanB, thats the essence of it, you do want to protect people who sit at a desk or work at a stressful job and then rush off to ride their horse when they can and make it as level a playing field as you can.


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## Old school (9 December 2018)

paddi22 said:



			We discussed this as a grey area that comes up.  The consensus was that if a business was benefiting from the horse being ridden in an amateur class then it was against the ethos of the amateur spirit. So the rider might be an amateur, but the rider/horse combination isn't I personally don't think its fair for businesses to use the amateur classes to add value to horses who will later be for sale. that's not a level playing field if you are competing against someone riding their own horse year after year. 

With the very wealthy vs normal wage debate, there was no clear way to police this in reality even if you brought it in. You would have to get a copy of peoples wage slips or tax returns, it would be a nightmare!
		
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I look forward to next years EI amateur entries. Will be watching to see if those who take advantage of the system are washed out. I recall a very very well known Irish pro's sponsors promo video of  pro's groom (also their spouse) promoting just how integral their riding of the pro's horses is to the pro's success. It was published during Tatts Int. circa 2017 if memory serves me correctly. You could not have a more clear picture that this was a clear violation of EI Amateur rules. Video was removed promptly. And said spouse continued performing in EI Amateur classes for rest of season. The most ironic part is that the parties concerned would very vocal about "poor sportsmanship" regarding others.


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## JustMe22 (13 December 2018)

We just have classes that everyone competes in! If you draw the National Grand Prix champion in your Prelim class then you just accept that you will probably lose - and if you're a one horse amateur who jumps, you're likely to come up against the big pros time and time again.

I can see how some people are disheartened by it, but it certainly makes it simpler and easier in terms of competing and entering.


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## Ambers Echo (13 December 2018)

sportsmansB said:



			I very strongly feel that no one in an amateur class should make money from horses - whether that is through being paid for rides, owning a livery yard, teaching or whatever.
		
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You can be a yard owner without even being able to ride though. A farmer who has decided to diversify for example. Or a hobby rider who rents their own yard and has a couple of spare stables. There are plenty of people working with horses in whatever capacity who have not got much or any competition experience and may not even own their own horse. If someone like that bought a horse would they be expected to compete as a pro?

I think people should attain 'pro' status through results. Ie once they have reached a certain level with a particular horse they compete as a pro or HC. That's how they do it in triathlon - it is hugely prestigious to be able to race in the 'elite' waves of a triathlon and not with the age groupers.


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## paddi22 (13 December 2018)

Ambers Echo said:



			I think people should attain 'pro' status through results. Ie once they have reached a certain level with a particular horse they compete as a pro or HC. That's how they do it in triathlon - it is hugely prestigious to be able to race in the 'elite' waves of a triathlon and not with the age groupers.
		
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That's a really interesting theory, and can totally see the logic in it.

The yard owner one is a line that had to be drawn, There would be no way of deciding between who the 'good' and 'bad' riders were in yard owners.  There is also the idea that even if they aren't good riders they DO have access to arenas, facilities etc much easier than someone who has to commute an hour after work or pay for arena hire.


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## Elf On A Shelf (13 December 2018)

sportsmansB said:



			I very strongly feel that no one in an amateur class should make money from horses - whether that is through being paid for rides, owning a livery yard, teaching or whatever.
		
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I am excluded from the majority of amatuer and home produced showing classes because I work ride racehorses for a living. That's as far away from showing as you can get! But I get the idea behind it.


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## sportsmansB (14 December 2018)

Essentially its not a line between 'pro' and 'amateur' - its between amateur and 'open'.
So the person who owns a yard but isn't much good- it doesn't make them a pro rider, it just makes them ineligible for amateur classes. I think the old 'sportsmans' name for it was actually more appropriate.


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