# Ex-raccehorse woes, seriously what am I going to do?



## snopuma (5 March 2015)

So 3 years and 9months ago I bought an ex-racehorse, she was sold to me as being a bit too boring for the owner because she's was so good and she had supposedly retrained her, I am pretty convinced now that when I tried her she was doped I have had one successful ride in walk trot and canter on her and that was the day I brought her home, the second ride she bronced in the school and bolted a first for me all other previous horses have had plenty to say so I would say I am accomplished after 37 years of horses but I have never felt like I did that day, I got some professional help after 6 months of avoiding the canter with her and to be fair barely riding her, the professional can ride her, yep he can he can really ride he sits to all the rearing, broncing and bucking.  Good for him.  He can't understand what my problem is.  She has been to 2 dressage shows she won both her classes one with him and one with me (after he had warmed up - she bronced in the warm up)

This time last year she put me on the floor in great style, I lay there unable to move, after 2 hours on the floor I went off in the ambulance, suspected broken pelvis, luckily after x-rays I hadn't broken anything, amazing! they packed me of home at 3am and said you will feel like you've been hit by a train, they weren't kidding, for the next three days it took me between 4-7hours to get out of bed, I have never known pain like it and I have broken a few things in my time, but this was like I had broken my back and pelvis, for the next 3 weeks I sat up to sleep in bed it was just easier to get up, m boss was a compete arS*h*le and throughout my recover made things as awkward for me as possible, after 3 months despite the fact that that I had returned to work after 3 weeks she made me redundant.  So I still have my mare, and I have ridden her through June-October last year not religiously  and did hack her 6 times, which is amazing but then some shetlands looked at her on the last hack and I got off and walked home.  Then she got an abscess and was off work and then winter came (she hates winter).

So my predicament is that despite the fact that I love this little madam and she has her good points, she's great in the stable, loves a groom etc... she is the worst horse to lead in from the field, I have tried every gadget and she has no respect, she launches through the air spins round, canters next to you virtually on the spot rears up, she used to put the fear of God into me, she doesn't even respect a chifney I am surprised I have broken her jaw with her carry-on, she has no respect for me at all, now I am not a wus and I give as good as she's gets, I am ashamed to say that I have punched her ignorant face when she has really pushed it with me, not that there was much reaction, in fact little at all, I have tried being overly nice and praising her every good move.  Nothing works, she just looks at me like 'Sucker' do my bidding.  I have desensitised her with the lunge whip as she was terrified of it, I have never hit her, I just wiggle it on the floor, now she is desensitised she now has decided that she will stop whenever she likes and just look around, and now I am between the rock and the hard place, I have another horse, he is semi retired, currently lame and is a God, he literally has never put a foot wrong, he is twice her size and cut late, I would never put a chifney on him he would never need it, he has always looked after me, I wish I had bought another him.  But I am stuck with madam who is beautiful and moves wonderfully, but is trying to kill me in her own way, I would love it if I could speak to her and just set out the contract that I just want to school 3 times and week and hack a couple of times too and go to dressage shows ever 2-3weeks, and for this she will have a clean bed, plenty of nice hay, good food, rugs in abundance, her every medical need met, but I can't and I can't keep doing what I am doing, I had hoped that I could progress with the professional's help but all it has proved is that a professional can ride her, and I can't.

So if anyone has an ideas on maybe hypnotising us both etc.... I would take advise, and NO I can't sell her she will end up in a tin.


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## MadisonBelle (5 March 2015)

Christ this is tough but I didn't want to read and run. You can tell through your writing that despite it all you love this mare so if you won't sell, and if you have the money/land could you not just keep her as a field ornament?!?

Other than that I have no real idea's but I really wish you the best and hope others have an idea which works out for you.


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## meardsall_millie (5 March 2015)

Have you had this horse looked at by a vet?

I'm not one for shouting 'get the vet' at every opportunity but this horse is telling you something is wrong.  From experience, and if you've really been through all you say you have, then I'd say she's trying to tell you that something hurts.


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## be positive (5 March 2015)

meardsall_millie said:



			Have you had this horse looked at by a vet?

I'm not one for shouting 'get the vet' at every opportunity but this horse is telling you something is wrong.  From experience, and if you've really been through all you say you have, then I'd say she's trying to tell you that something hurts.
		
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My thoughts exactly, if you have not had her thoroughly checked that would be the place to start as horses do not generally behave so consistently badly unless there is a good, in their view, reason.

I do not think the pro is really helping, he may be able to ride her through the bucking and rearing and think nothing of it but he is either compounding the issue by doing so or not finding ways to avoid her behaving this way, in my opinion after so long with little improvement, I would be wanting to see her relaxed and comfortable not still fighting him on a regular basis, that he cannot see a problem speaks volumes to me, her behaviour is not normal and most people would see why you have a problem.


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## paddi22 (5 March 2015)

If she's gone that long behaving so badly i'd get a serious vet check and xrays, as it could be kissing spine or si pain. That behavour does not sound normal. If she was mine I'd get her completely checked, and if nothing came up I'd give her a nice retirement if I could afford it, or pts if i couldn't

I have an exracer who was a chronic rearer and have loads of vets look at him and declare him completely sound. it was only scans and xrays revealed the problem.


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## Elf On A Shelf (5 March 2015)

My first thoughts were kissing spines. My second is - she is a mare, get her ovaries checked. A lot of mares get really really sore when in season and the build up to, come down from which doesn't leave you much time in between.


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## L&M (5 March 2015)

And you have put up with this for nearly 4 yrs? You are a braver person than I am!

If it was me, and any physical reason had been discounted, I would either retire her or pts. It doesn't matter that the professional can cope with her as she is YOUR horse, and she is putting YOU in danger.

Sorry to be so negative but horses are meant to be fun&#8230;..


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## wench (5 March 2015)

Have to agree with a comprehensive vet checkup. But I would set your self on a limit on how much you want spend and stick to it.

If the results are not good, then retire or PTS.


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## snopuma (5 March 2015)

Yes she has been looked at by both vet and physio and while she did have an issue with a sticking patella, that is fine now, more than fine, and she had a sore muscle on her nearside rump which the physio fixed.  Trainer just says she needs work and lots of it, but he also gets cross when I won't do what he asks in a lesson, like canter, or my favourite where he starts asking me to trot within lengthened strides, I wasn't born yesterday I know she may canter when asked for lengthening, so I won't do that either! But last lesson I had was in October so I am really loathed to start that 'just trust me' ***** again. I guess I shall just have to have 2 pet horses and nothing to ride.


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## Antw23uk (5 March 2015)

To be honest you sound like a nightmare and this mare sounds very unhappy. Why are you wiggling a lunge whip at her? You are asking for advice from a trainer but then not taking it ... I would have walked away from you by now, he must have the patients of a saint!

If there is nothing physically wrong with her and you are frightened to ride her and you wont put trust in your trainer to work through the issues I think either sell it to someone who can work with her (and tell her off when she needs it because she is walking all over you) and put the effort into working her daily and giving her a job, put her in a tin can yourself so you know her future or keep her as a field ornament.

3 years and nine months and no one has said any of the above to you?  Life is too short to be feeling like you are with this mare. Maybe its time to say enough is enough. Good luck.


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## wench (5 March 2015)

What exactly has the vet done? Has the horse been into the vets for a full work up, or has he merely come along at home, watched her trot up , poke and prod a bit and say there is nothing wrong?

There is a massive difference between the two


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## RachelFerd (5 March 2015)

Yes - full work-up at a decent veterinary hospital (think either Rossdales or AHT) and then take stock.

Horses don't behave like this for no reason.

Equally, if you don't put your trust in your trainer, why have them??

*IF* vet check-up is ok, your options are to PTS or ask the trainer to take the horse on full time and sell on. You may love the mare, but the horse doesn't sound happy and neither do you!


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## paddi22 (5 March 2015)

as wench says... a vet can't diagnose kissing spine from just looking.  You need to work out how much time and effort you are willing to put into fixing this mare. I spent months doing groundwork, lunging and physio work with one of my lads. I can't believe you kept riding her for that long??! Would you get into your car everyday and drive it if you knew you were going to crash???


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## Goldenstar (5 March 2015)

If you make the assumption ( and I would not ) that's there's no physical reason for her behaviour then the ' problem ' appears very simple the mare is simply to much horse for you and you need to sell her to a rider she suits.
However I would never discount the fact that powerful pro riders can make horses in pain do things that others riders canot , so I would not be selling her without a proper "problems with performance work up " from an experianced equine vet.
I think you can't hang around to place her in a new home at her age she's needs to settled in a home where the work level suits her .


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## Lyle (5 March 2015)

Full vet work up- check for KS and Sacroiliac issues. 

Find a trainer who will take this mare back to basics on the ground. The fact that she's terrible to lead after four years together rings alarm bells, the mare does not respect you. An excellent groundwork trainer is the way forward here, although it will be a long road to completely remove the habit. If she can't handle being respectful on the ground, there is no hope under saddle.


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## Leo Walker (5 March 2015)

snopuma said:



			I am ashamed to say that I have punched her ignorant face
		
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Its really not acceptable to punch a horse in the face no matter how frustrated and angry you are! If its got that bad then you need to rehome or PTS if the behaviour is really that bad. Horses dont care about "contracts" or clean beds!


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## Pearlsasinger (5 March 2015)

I had a TBx mare who was very similar to yours.  She was a nightmare to handle in winter, much better in summer.  Eventually, after deciding that it was safer for every-one if she wasn't ridden, we found that it was her feed that was causing the problems.  She was super-sensitive to cereals and refined sugar.  When we removed those from her diet, she was like a different animal.  What is your mare fed on?


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## Firewell (5 March 2015)

I think you should do yourself and her a favour and move her on to a more suitable home. Personally I would send her to your trainer to sell.
To me it sounds like a case of neither of you trusting or respecting each other. You are struggling and these TB's are super sensistive. 
It sounds to me like with the right person she may come good  and you need something less sensitive and more laid back.
It seems silly to carry on when both of you are so miserable and scared around each other .


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## Fools Motto (5 March 2015)

Nearly 4 years is a long time to keep a horse that you don't enjoy owning. Owning horses has to be enjoyable,  and even if you didn't ride her, looking after her, leading her in still has issues. So, on this basis, you need to send her off to be sold or find her a permanent loving loan home with a contract that suits you. 
On the other hand, if injury is picked up by vets, and you don't/can't continue, do the descent thing, so no-one suffers any more.


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## Orangehorse (5 March 2015)

Fools Motto said:



			Nearly 4 years is a long time to keep a horse that you don't enjoy owning. Owning horses has to be enjoyable,  and even if you didn't ride her, looking after her, leading her in still has issues. So, on this basis, you need to send her off to be sold or find her a permanent loving loan home with a contract that suits you. 
On the other hand, if injury is picked up by vets, and you don't/can't continue, do the descent thing, so no-one suffers any more.
		
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This really.  You want a quiet hack and to do a couple of dressage shows - and you have bought a racehorse?  Bit of a square peg in a round hole.


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## twiggy2 (5 March 2015)

Orangehorse said:



			This really.  You want a quiet hack and to do a couple of dressage shows - and you have bought a racehorse?  Bit of a square peg in a round hole.
		
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not always the OP tried the horse as what she was looking for and the 'peg fitted the hole' at that point it just seems someone had fiddles with the width of the peg by using sedation


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## Hoof_Prints (5 March 2015)

Has the vet fully scanned for issues such as KS? As amazing as our vets can be, they can not work with nothing and will not diagnose a horse based on what they see from the outside, even if they think it may be something else. Personally I wouldn't want to pass on a horse like this, I'd feel too guilty and worried that the horse may end up injuring someone that is simply in the wrong place at the wrong time or just naive. I would have to vote PTS if you can't keep and sort it out.


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## wench (5 March 2015)

Dependant on how much you would have to spend with a vet, I think your best off taking her directly to a hospital. Don't bother with getting a local vet out to look at home as there is very little they can do.

I expect hospital vet to start from the hooves upwards with nerve blocks, see if this makes any difference. I'd also be asking for a gastroscope and an ovary scan whilst she's in. 

If the X-ray machine comes out for anything I'd be asking for X-rays of the spine, just in case she has KS. Sometimes this can show a "false positive", in the the horse has an impingement, but could be caused by holding the boys to relive pain elsewhere, or that the impingement doesn't actually bother her.

IMO it's best getting as much diagnostics done in the vet in one go as possible, as in the long run it will save you several trips back and forth. 

Other things you may consider before he goes to the vets are thermal imaging scan (can help pinpoint problematic areas), animal communicator, or bioenergetic hair test.


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## Pigeon (5 March 2015)

Orangehorse said:



			This really.  You want a quiet hack and to do a couple of dressage shows - and you have bought a racehorse?  Bit of a square peg in a round hole.
		
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Mine would be happiest sleeping and eating and toddling down the lane once in a while. And that's even when he's fit and hopped up on oats. Some really are lazy sods! 

I guess you just need to work out a plan of action here.

First and foremost, don't take any risks. 

You know what, how about a bute trial? Ask your vet about maximum dosage. Any difference at all in her behaviour and you have your answer. 

If you do see an improvement, I would honestly just take her for a full work-up somewhere. Chances are something will crop up, because very few horses are 100%, but it might just explain her behaviour. Others have given more detailed info on this, and in my experience it is well worth doing, even for a horse that appears sound.

If all comes back clear, I would send her for schooling. Going to another yard means that they should work on her ground manners, whereas having someone come to you means that only her ridden issues are addressed. You say he sits the bucks, but hasn't improved the behaviour. Could it be because he doesn't see it as a problem? (asking you to canter her when you don't feel comfortable etc) Have you had the second opinion of any other trainers? Is it really broncing or just normal bucking? Because with broncing you will be really limited as to who will be willing to ride her. But yes, after the vet step, you need to find a professional who can help you.

I totally agree, I personally wouldn't rehome her.


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## snopuma (6 March 2015)

Yes we did Bute Trial for 2 weeks and no she was no different, sometimes she can be wonderful and level headed, out hacking when a coach came along she was stolid while another horse was having a paddy, and its these little glimpses of her other nature that keep me going with her, she is barefoot and sound and moves beautifully, she has no difficulty remaining in balance and on the bit in walk and trot and that's why she comes home with scores of 72% to 76% - just getting her into canter she throws her head up, launches and you can't take even the slightest rein or she freaks out and before you say it yes she has had her teeth done and saddle has been changed etc...  I am a bit disheartened that the only advise I am really getting on here is that there is something wrong with her or I am a nightmare, I was hoping somebody had similar experiences and could offer training advice but all I have to go on is what has already been covered.


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## paddi22 (6 March 2015)

my lad is exactly the same, i knew underneath he was a lovely, kind horse but it was buried under all these issues.  

I don't know what training advice you are expecting to get? It sounds like an issue that has been going on for a long time, and that the professional you got in to ride couldn't fix or give advice to. Without seeing either you or the horse in action it's impossible for anyone to give other advice. 

I'd bet 100% its a spine or physical issue. There are other things that could cause some of the issues (throwing head in canter, not accepting contact) but overall it just screams of a horse in some kind of physical pain. Although the leading issue would indicate you need to improve handling issues on the ground.   The not wanting to canter could be SI pain, which you haven't ruled out. It could be lack of balance, or a wonky rider, it could be arthritic hocks, it could be a bad surface in the school causing a horse to lose balance. there could be 1000 things it could be, but without seeing a video or something it's impossible to tell. My exracer just to throw his head when he felt a contact, but schooling got that out of him. i have to make sure my contact is completely even and supportive, but very gentle or else he throws the head up. I found using karl hesters elastic reins a great help - it helped me keep an even pressure until I improved my contact. 

But honestly it doesn't sound like a training issue. If you wanted to rule that out then send her away to schooling for a few months to a decent rider. With the best will in the world, if you have struggled on for so long then you don't have the skills, resources or people around you to help.
 If she was mine 
 i'd get full work up from vet hospital, 
 I'd cut out any sugar from the diet and turn her out 24/7. 
 work with a decent NH person to get my groundwork better. I did this with my exracer and once we got our groundwork right and he respected me, a lot of the ridden issues disappeared. 
 Then i'd send her off schooling with someone good. Maybe she wasn't retrained properly and she's confused and getting frustrated, I know my lad was until he knew his new job. I'd been riding 30 years and i didn't have the finesse to retrain him, I sent him off to someone i trusted and he came back a much happier horse who really understood his new job.


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## Amymay (6 March 2015)

Deleted.


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## crabbymare (6 March 2015)

Does she actualy take a contact at trot and is she really working to the bit and working properly over her back at walk and trot? getting over 70% at dressage does not always mean they are pushing through properly especially at lower levels which I assume from your post and problems you are doing. Can you get her to take what feels like a bag of sugar in each hand from the contact?  Generally I would be thinking spine or hock areas could be a problem so you could be looking at suspensory or KS SI type problems but she does need a proper workup to find out if and where there is a problem. if the vets find nothing then she is a paddock ornament from the sounds of it as she is very unhappy for some reason. out of curiosity does she buck if you do a fast trot where she is long and on the forehand and let her fall into canter? or if you lunge her with sidereins and a roller what does she do in the transition?


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## DabDab (6 March 2015)

If you are sure that there is nothing physically wrong, then she may just need strengthening in the canter and is the sort of horse that likes to understand and feel strong doing something before she will do it willingly.
You can try doing some canter work in the lunge with saddle and headcollar, and side reins from the d rings to the headcollar. Then you can push her on in the canter a little with something to lean on without teaching her to lean on the bit/annoying her with it when she is trying to balance. Only do a small amount at a time though, and not every day. 
Probably try another trainer too I would say - this one is clearly not your cup of tea. One with good groundwork knowledge (handling and schooling-wise) would probably be a good fit.

100% agree with checking her SI area though.
Best of luck with her.


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## Michen (6 March 2015)

Orangehorse said:



			This really.  You want a quiet hack and to do a couple of dressage shows - and you have bought a racehorse?  Bit of a square peg in a round hole.
		
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Ex racers can be incredibly good for this sort of thing. Not only can they often move very well for dressage, I've always found them to be great hacks because they've been so desensitised by all the things they've encountered when racing or on the way to the gallops. So usually fab with traffic etc. A well schooled and re trained ex racer (as this one was sold as) is often a very good option for someone who wants a quality horse but not a total plod.


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## paddi22 (6 March 2015)

The reluctance to canter was the first sign of SI in my horse i think. The transition to canter seemed to 'catch' him and hurt him when he had to put weight on his rear end to push off into canter.


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## Apercrumbie (6 March 2015)

How does she canter on the lunge?  Do you see her cantering in her field?  Do you/have you cantered her on hacks?  Watching her in these situations should give you a clue to a physical problem.  If she's completely hollowing, looking grumpy and throwing her head up on the lunge, then it's probably not just a training issue.

If there genuinely is nothing physical then you have two options.  Either you find a way to canter, conquering your understandable nerves and learning to ride her through it, or you sell.  If you want to keep her, you do need to have a good look at yourself and your attitude to see if you think you can do this.  Asking for lengthened strides in trot shouldn't lead to canter.  It's a very good and important exercise to do and not something you should be jumping on your trainer for.  Find a different trainer, you clearly don't trust him but find one you do trust and listen to them.  There's no point if you're just going to ignore all their advice.  Sorry if a few of us are coming across as harsh, but problems aren't solved unless you face them head on.


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## ljohnsonsj (6 March 2015)

A proper examination from a vet if you want to spend the money. If you don't then PTS if she is that bad. She sounds to me (If nothing physically wrong) that she has infact never been reschooled. Alot of the behaviours are similar to my ex racer when I first got her off the track. These type of horses need someone brave. No matter what the outcome I think you need to admit defeat and that she isn't the right horse for you. No point in paying for them if you are getting no enjoyment out of it at all


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## missprimitive (6 March 2015)

Bute trials do have their place but they aren't always accurate. I've just had one of mine on 3 sachets a day (vets advice) after a huge deterioration in behaviour. This was a horse who would trot up sound on the straight, after flexions and also on a circle on hard ground. Vet actually told me to work him harder or hunt him as he was probably bored. Bute made no difference so he was booked in elsewhere for a proper work up with a vet who would humour me. KS and hock problems found.
Horses are supposed to make us smile. The way I looked at it was I needed a thorough investigation done because neither me or him were happy. I needed to make sure he was sound enough to sell on or get to the bottom of the problem so I could make him happy enough to do the job he was bought for.
I know lameness work ups are NEVER cheap but neither is livery, lessons, paying for someone to ride a horse you just aren't enjoying


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## Goldenstar (6 March 2015)

The more you post the more it sounds like a physical issue .
It is not worth getting hurt over .
I would get extensive video footage of her seeking tying to get footage of the difficult behaviours then I really feel she needs to left at a equine vets for a full work up .
A proper work up is expensive ( depending on how far they have to go to find something ) but getting badly hurt is much much more expensive than paying for a work up ).
It's my experience that a bute trial can prove the horse has pain but they are not at all reliable at discounting pain as many types of pain don't respond to it , I have personal experience with my own horses  of this for back pain and foot pain and a friends horse with ligament issues in the hocks did not respond to pain relief either.
You are getting the advice you are getting because of the story you have told most badly behaved horses have pain issues that my experience born of fifty years at this .
If the horse goes ok for the pro then you have to learn to ride like a pro or move on .
Does she canter safely and normally for the pro ?
If you have come on here looking for a magic answer I will tell you straight there's not one .
I have owned several very difficult horses the difference is I did not not call it a nightmare I spend my time laughing my head off at their antics and sorting the training problems .
When reading your story everything shouts that something is wrong with the horse .


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## numptynoelle (6 March 2015)

I hope you don't take offence to this, but I'm going to approach this from a different angle. Just wondering if you might be subconsciously holding onto some resentment about your accident and subsequent redundancy - do you think deep down you might be blaming your mare for this? Or, alternatively, blaming her for not being like your other horse? She does sound like a sensitive soul, and so may be picking up on your unintentional bad vibes. It sounds like you went through a rough time of it there, would you consider some form of sports psychology to help with resolving that and perhaps your mind-block over the canter too? Again, apologies if that offends you, but if you think everything is ok physically with your mare, I think you should be looking at yourself too.


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## tabithakat64 (6 March 2015)

As others have said I would get a proper work up done and look at all possibilities from Kissing spines, SI, spavins, to ulcers and hormonal issues.  Look at her diet too.  If nothing shows up then offer her to your trainer to sell as he is not bothered by her behaviour.
You may just need to accept that she is not suitable for you and let both of you move on.


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## MadisonBelle (6 March 2015)

snopuma said:



			Yes we did Bute Trial for 2 weeks and no she was no different, sometimes she can be wonderful and level headed, out hacking when a coach came along she was stolid while another horse was having a paddy, and its these little glimpses of her other nature that keep me going with her, she is barefoot and sound and moves beautifully, she has no difficulty remaining in balance and on the bit in walk and trot and that's why she comes home with scores of 72% to 76% - just getting her into canter she throws her head up, launches and you can't take even the slightest rein or she freaks out and before you say it yes she has had her teeth done and saddle has been changed etc...  I am a bit disheartened that the only advise I am really getting on here is that there is something wrong with her or I am a nightmare, I was hoping somebody had similar experiences and could offer training advice but all I have to go on is what has already been covered.
		
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So is she just bad in the canter??? Could it be a catch 22 that she finds it exciting so you don't do it and the less she is cantered the more she can't control herself if/when she is asked to canter?

I had a mare who was great to show jump and XC etc but for a dressage test I couldn't quite control the canter and the way my lessons were structured we trotted for 50 mins of the lesson and then cantered at the end. I could never control the canter (for dressage tests) and of course the lessons finished so it was never worked on... This went on for ages (YEARS) until I stopped the lessons, took myself off to an arena asked for canter at the beginning, cantered for almost the entire hour (on and off) and by the very next day I had a canter I could ride and we literally went from being last in dressage test to winning them!!.........


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## unicornystar (6 March 2015)

Been there, got the t shirt, had 2 great (ish) years and then it sort of got progressively worse, turned out to be kissing spines......had horse PTS.  If you are going to get injured there really is no enjoyment in doing that.

Get her fully checked out by a vet, if nothing is found of any explanation then sell to an experienced person, or PTS, sounds awful but horses are supposed to be fun.

My days of getting my old boy in and missing front and back hooves as we came in from the field are gone and I dont miss them one bit!!

For what it is worth, walk and trot ALWAYS fine, the canter was always the issue and when the bucking and broncing began, never in any other gait.  came with it but it got worse and worse, some days could work through it, some days not.  Fine being lunged to a point until we got to canter...

Good luck x


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## Pearlsasinger (6 March 2015)

snopuma said:



			I am a bit disheartened that the only advise I am really getting on here is that there is something wrong with her or I am a nightmare, I was hoping somebody had similar experiences and could offer training advice but all I have to go on is what has already been covered.
		
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So what are you feeding her?  As I asked before.


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## snopuma (6 March 2015)

Pearlsasinger said:



			So what are you feeding her?  As I asked before.
		
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She was getting, plain hay chaff, fast fibre, speedibeet, micronized linseed, turmeric, valerian cordial but I am changing them gradually onto PURE EASY they are both barefoot, he has navicular and her feet were so awful when I got her she couldn't hold a shoe, on the plus side she dished a little before with shoes and now is straight moving without them and her feet look a lot better as does her body score for a TB she's not fat but looks great.  She just has meadow hay to eat in her stable, not soaked but is very nice quality, she's up to date with saddle fit, teeth just done, and vaccs.  I did lunge her today and she contained the inner loony, and when I finished I let her go and she turned herself inside out, so I was quite pleased that she listened to me when clearly she had a lot of pent up energy, she is still the most beautiful girl and when she's showing off with a little passage in the school you would thinks she was a warmbood, I do love this horse very much


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## blackhor2e (6 March 2015)

I haven't read all the replies. But I think one major component in this is to be consistent with her, for example you have just lunged her but then 'let her go' it's not a criticism just an observation but perhaps when she is well behaved just stop at that and don't allow for her over exuberant behaviour at all. Being black and white is the quickest way to get through to them.


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## snopuma (6 March 2015)

blackhor2e said:



			I haven't read all the replies. But I think one major component in this is to be consistent with her, for example you have just lunged her but then 'let her go' it's not a criticism just an observation but perhaps when she is well behaved just stop at that and don't allow for her over exuberant behaviour at all. Being black and white is the quickest way to get through to them.
		
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I do get the 'black and white thing, but she has no turnout at the moment so kicking her heels up at the end of the session is the only freedom she has as the moment.


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## McFluff (6 March 2015)

If I fed my ex-racer that and had no turnout I would have similar issues. Mine is in hay only and gets turnout. If she can't go out, then she gets to have 'fun' in the school before any ridden work.  She also needs regular and consistent work.  She needs routine, very consistent handling and quiet, calm approach. i have been taught to set her up for success all the time. If I hit her, ever, it would be game over, she would no longer trust me (not that I would dream of hitting her anyway). 
For what it is worth, if physical checks show nothing then I would get a trainer who has a good track record with ex-racers and can help you learn how to get the best out of them. My trainer is invaluable and helps me to turn the 'she's too good for me' moments into successes.


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## Goldenstar (7 March 2015)

snopuma said:



			I do get the 'black and white thing, but she has no turnout at the moment so kicking her heels up at the end of the session is the only freedom she has as the moment.
		
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It's very unwise to keep such a horse without turnout , is there any way you can resolve that .


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## AdorableAlice (7 March 2015)

Does she behave the same way when kept and ridden off grass.

A confined horse of any breed is going to be anything between fresh and a ruddy lunatic.

I wonder if Greatwood might be worth contacting and discussing your problems with.


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## H_A_C (7 March 2015)

I know you don't want to hear it but she needs a full lameness work up! Maybe try veterinary thermal imaging first to give you an idea its only about £150 for the whole body and if there are no hot spots then pain might not be your issue but if there is you can get further investigations. This mare really needs a full loss of performance work up. Unfortunately it's not what you want to hear but believe me most of us are speaking from experience as much as we all wish we weren't!


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## twiggy2 (7 March 2015)

does she ever get turned out in a field with other horses?


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## snopuma (7 March 2015)

Okay this horse of mine loves the spring and summer, she goes out every day all day happy to be out, during the autumn she starts fretting about being out (she goes out with my other horse - he is happy to go out any day of the year) now when I say fretting I mean turning the area around their gate into a 20m circle of deep mud slurry, she comes in covered in mud and I mean dripping in thick mud, and what isn't covered in mud is covered in shaving foam sweat under her rug, so as she does this her turnout becomes less as does his (poor boy) at the end of January they were down to 1 hour out as this was too much for her and since then they've been in, her antics have caused him to be lame again with a flair up of the navicular and he is on boxrest, I would love to be able to turn her out like a normal horse but she won't have it, she will hurt herself if I try to leave them out longer and now she has hurt him by default, you will have never seen a horse so in love with her stable, I promise you that, I don't think there is any need for her to have a door on it, it is incredibly upsetting to watch her behave like an agoraphobic but as with previous years when the weather changes as it is now she will start to go out again.  I understand that everyone keep saying get her worked up at the vets, but they have seen her countless times and she is sound she doesn't have KS and when 4 professionals have told me that and explained why she would not be a candidate for that and that it would be a pointless to investigate, when she has a moment in the school, she having fun, not the kind of fun anyone wants, but her kind of fun.


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## millikins (7 March 2015)

There is a FB group called "Racehorses, where are they now?" It's a big active group and somebody will almost certainly know her from racing days and could give you some background info, if she's always been like this or retired due to injury etc. Good luck


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## Meowy Catkin (7 March 2015)

I understand that everyone keep saying get her worked up at the vets, but they have seen her countless times and she is sound she doesn't have KS and when 4 professionals have told me that and explained why she would not be a candidate for that and that it would be a pointless to investigate
		
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So she's never had her back x-rayed or been in to have a full lameness work up?

I think that you have been let down by those professionals.


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## lastchancer (7 March 2015)

The horse is too sharp for you, nothing to be ashamed of - I wouldn't want her, sounds like a right PIA. Sell/gift her to someone who can make something of her, keep as a pet or PTS. Just don't expect to make her into something that she isn't and will never be, IE a quiet easy going happy hacker.


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## lastchancer (7 March 2015)

snopuma said:



			I do get the 'black and white thing, but she has no turnout at the moment so kicking her heels up at the end of the session is the only freedom she has as the moment.
		
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Oh, there's your problem then. No wonder she can't contain herself in canter... Turn it out!


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## Apercrumbie (7 March 2015)

Ah, if she has no turnout it's no wonder she behaves this way.  If you can't improve that situation I'm not really sure what to suggest tbh.  How often is she worked?


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## Michen (7 March 2015)

Antw23uk said:



			To be honest you sound like a nightmare and this mare sounds very unhappy. Why are you wiggling a lunge whip at her? You are asking for advice from a trainer but then not taking it ... I would have walked away from you by now, he must have the patients of a saint!

If there is nothing physically wrong with her and you are frightened to ride her and you wont put trust in your trainer to work through the issues I think either sell it to someone who can work with her (and tell her off when she needs it because she is walking all over you) and put the effort into working her daily and giving her a job, put her in a tin can yourself so you know her future or keep her as a field ornament.

3 years and nine months and no one has said any of the above to you?  Life is too short to be feeling like you are with this mare. Maybe its time to say enough is enough. Good luck.
		
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This really is just so unhelpful. At the end of the day most of us post on here because we genuinely want advice to do the best by our horses. Telling someone they sound like a nightmare is just not constructive or useful in any way, and frankly, it's rude and unnecessary.


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## Michen (7 March 2015)

OP, I really think it would be a good idea to get a lameness work up. Or if she's sound, a bone scan. For 700 quid or so you will at least know if she lights up like a christmas tree there's something there. Also worth thinking about ulcers, particularly if she's a pain to be turned out in autumn winter. May well be the acid in her stomach is building up if there's not enough grass for her to nibble on.


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## Dottie (7 March 2015)

I've known many of people who have proved the vet wrong. I would have her scoped for ulcers and her back xrayed for kissing spines. Good luck.


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## Goldenstar (7 March 2015)

snopuma said:



			Okay this horse of mine loves the spring and summer, she goes out every day all day happy to be out, during the autumn she starts fretting about being out (she goes out with my other horse - he is happy to go out any day of the year) now when I say fretting I mean turning the area around their gate into a 20m circle of deep mud slurry, she comes in covered in mud and I mean dripping in thick mud, and what isn't covered in mud is covered in shaving foam sweat under her rug, so as she does this her turnout becomes less as does his (poor boy) at the end of January they were down to 1 hour out as this was too much for her and since then they've been in, her antics have caused him to be lame again with a flair up of the navicular and he is on boxrest, I would love to be able to turn her out like a normal horse but she won't have it, she will hurt herself if I try to leave them out longer and now she has hurt him by default, you will have never seen a horse so in love with her stable, I promise you that, I don't think there is any need for her to have a door on it, it is incredibly upsetting to watch her behave like an agoraphobic but as with previous years when the weather changes as it is now she will start to go out again.  I understand that everyone keep saying get her worked up at the vets, but they have seen her countless times and she is sound she doesn't have KS and when 4 professionals have told me that and explained why she would not be a candidate for that and that it would be a pointless to investigate, when she has a moment in the school, she having fun, not the kind of fun anyone wants, but her kind of fun.
		
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If she truly just having fun ,she needs a enough work to keep a stabled horse settled and riders who does not find her behaviour a nightmare .
If you keep a horse without turn out and don't provide it with enough work  to keep it settled and happy then you reap what you have sowed .


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## Apercrumbie (7 March 2015)

Goldenstar said:



			If she truly just having fun ,she needs a enough work to keep a stabled horse settled and riders who does not find her behaviour a nightmare .
If you keep a horse without turn out and don't provide it with enough work  to keep it settled and happy then you reap what you have sowed .
		
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This is what I meant when I asked how much she is worked.  A horse who is stabled that much needs working probably twice a day to keep them sane.  If you can't manage two sessons a day, then one long solid session with a separate in hand walk/go on the walker/turnout.  I know it's a lot but for an animal designed to be moving most of the time it's the minimum.  Obviously when she's out in the summer twice a day wouldn't be necessary.  

If you can't provide that level of work, then you either need to address her turnout issues, maybe by finding a yard with an all weather turnout she could go in for a few hours a day which she might prefer to the mud, or you could get someone in to ride her, or you need to admit defeat and find her a new home.

I appreciate that all of this is sounding rather critical, and apologies if you already work her twice a day, but with you having struggled on for so long and going through many injuries, I think it's crunch time for you and your mare.  Any criticism is well meant, I promise.  I think many of us have been faced with horses we can't truly manage, myself definitely included.  It's difficult but I'm sure you will make the right decision for you both, whether it's pushing through or letting go.


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## Beausmate (7 March 2015)

OP, have you had her checked for ulcers?


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## paddi22 (7 March 2015)

your vets are wrong, they CANNOT diagnose ks or si on the ground. i had my lad seen to by countless vets, passed all flexion tests etc. It's only the xrays can show it. So there's no point saying it's not that, if the proper work up hasn't been done.

She needs turnoout as well. when my lad is stabled and fed with no turnout, he is a lunatic. If I were you i'd move to a yard that had better turnout.


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## H_A_C (7 March 2015)

Agree with the poster above my mare was suddenly horrible the vet gave me such a warning before I made him send me to Rossdales that if it was behavioural I would have to pay the bills. We did several workups at home and my vet was convinced she was sound however she had SI pain, hock Arthritis and psd.


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## _Annie_ (7 March 2015)

I think she physically needs much more turnout than she can mentally cope with.  Are you able to work her twice a day?  If not, could you employ someone?

 In your shoes I'd find a trainer I could trust, someone with a proven track record retraining ex racers, that could show me how to get her listening on the ground first & work from there.  Lots and lots of luck & a virtual *hug* it'll get better, you just need some experienced support


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## sarahandwilby (8 March 2015)

I read this and felt like I had to register to add my input (as the owner/rider of a somewhat 'enthusiastic' ex-racer and having worked in racing)

First off - I'd recommend the vet, a full work up of back/SI especially, gastroscopy and an ovary scan, plus anything else they might think of. Hormones can make them do strange things, sometimes through pain, other times through PMT! The fact that she's pretty bad on the floor too makes me think it could be something like that - this is not normal 'thoroughbred behaviour'... 
If they find something fixable, then great, treat it and see. If they don't then you can hopefully be fairly sure there is nothing physically wrong and then proceed to try and work through it with a bit more confidence in that you won't be hurting her. 

Next - _consistency is everything_ with ex-racers. The vast majority of ex-racers I've seen with behavioural issues have all been ones that haven't been ridden enough post retirement, have no routine etc. Mine is brilliant when in full work, but there is a definite difference if he has had a few days off (or heaven forbid, a week!) In training they are used to being ridden (and worked fairly hard tbh) six days a week, and if they miss a day you can pretty much always tell. Most ex-racers should be used to hacking, but it does depend on where they have come from. 
So if you can I'd try to ride every day, ask no questions from her and just get on, fairly loose rein (mine is loose rein = will not gallop, jog etc. tightening up rein = is it time to go faster?) go straight out for a hack and do NOT get off! Stick with that for a few weeks and see if there is an improvement.

Then, if this is beginning to show an improvement begin looking for a new trainer. Your one might be fantastic with some horses, but if they aren't making you feel confident and aren't working through her issues with you then they are not the right one at this point. I found when I got my current horse, having come off a completely different pony, a lot of the instructors who had been good for me through PC etc. were of no help at all when my wild little TB started hurtling round SJs at breakneck speed - they just couldn't understand _why_ he was being as he was - so we had to reconsider. Now he is more of a 'normal' horse we can go back to the old instructors! Depending on where you are in the country I'm sure someone off here will know of someone helpful.

Best of luck


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## Exploding Chestnuts (8 March 2015)

I have not read many of the posts, except you have had her  or for 4 years and apart from the day you tried her and the day she came to you she has been difficult. This horse is not for you OP, do what you have to do or want to do, but don't struggle on like this.


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## snopuma (8 March 2015)

Thank you so much for your help this makes a lot of sense and unlike others I am grateful for you not coming across as attacking me, I will try the hacking when I can get her out on daily turnout again, it will be hard to go out on a long rein/loose rein, she normal goes out of the gate sideways snorting fire and doesn't breathe for the first mile, and I know I am nervous and she picks up on anything and in the past I have tried PAX and a good friend with a good horse to help her, its her reaction to the 'out of the blue' stuff which is hard, when I got off last time I hacked her 2 Shetland stallions which an ignorant person keeps by the bridleway decided to be by the gate on our way home, I get that most horses haven't seen a Shetland before, but 2 squealing ones kicking each other for the spoils when your on a steep tarmac hill that's slippy at the best of times is not ideal and its the only way out of the yard, my auto reaction is to take up the reins, not pulling just contact, she then panics even more, roots, and goes up if you don't let her go, if you let her go your going at 90mph sideways in blind panic.


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## TeamChaser (8 March 2015)

I know some TB's can be quiet/lazy but some are also very sensitive and it's this that makes them wholly unsuitable for a nervous rider. Mine is 19 now and still a sod at times and I would not entertain a nervous rider for him. Had him as 6 yr old straight from racing and was fine for few wks and then started to test the boundaries and basically scared me to death. The problem got worse until I could barely hack him out. Got some more experienced, very confident people to hack with me and they kind of bullied me into manning up! Far from easy but we got there and I'm lucky now that I don't seem to suffer any nerves ... falling on my head too many times perhaps!

With a sensitive breed such as TB consistency/routine both in environment and handling is critical. Big livery yard didn't suit mine, nor did yard where he didn't have routine. Your trainer is probably a confident rider who can ride her through her bad behaviour but then when you get on and are not able to, that consistency is lost. I am really not being critical as i totally get how awful nerves can be - and understandable in this case - but her behaviour when turned out and being handled demonstrate to me how unsettled and anxious she feels. Some of them need a "boss" and are lost without one.

I think you need to be honest with yourself. If you do not feel you are able to overcome your nerves to give her the work she needs she may not be the horse for you. You need an ass kicking sister like mine really! 

I am sorry you've had such a rotten experience and wish you lots of luck whatever you decide to do


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## Apercrumbie (8 March 2015)

Snopuma one of the problems with people sounding critical is that you aren't actually answering anyone's questions so we can't give any more specific advice. How often are you working her?


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## Exploding Chestnuts (8 March 2015)

A nervous rider can't ride a spooky beast successfully and teach it to be a nice quiet ride. 
I was a asst trainer of racehorses for a while,, one girl [ straight from pony club exams] got so scared her hands had to be prised off the reins [horse left the gallops and trotted back to the yard,  back to the trainers lawns where he was happily eating the grass [deep hoofprints].
I got the blame, as asst trainers do, so she was put on the hacks for two months, then her b/f was told to show her what to do, all this took about three months, so she was "not earning her corn", she did eventually become capable of riding 50% of the horses, not any of the strong one or any of the nutters.
This was equivalent to you having two lessons every day for thee months.


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## Elf On A Shelf (8 March 2015)

snopuma said:



			when I got off last time I hacked her 2 Shetland stallions which an ignorant person keeps by the bridleway decided to be by the gate on our way home, I get that most horses haven't seen a Shetland before, but 2 squealing ones kicking each other for the spoils when your on a steep tarmac hill that's slippy at the best of times is not ideal and its the only way out of the yard,.
		
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So now you are also blaming some poor person who decides to keep shetlands ponies in a field which happens to be incredibly inconvenient for you?!? Lets ban the whole world from keeping Shetland ponies and heaven forbid they be stallions! Are you sure they are stallions or are you just assuming? The poor critters aren't even allowed to stand by their gate in your world! Maybe a lot of people get fed up of you and your mare and blame you for some of their issues too!

I would strongly suggest you sell up and get yourself a brain dead donkey and stop blaming everyone else for your own inadequacies!


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## Exploding Chestnuts (8 March 2015)

EKW, take chilli chocolate pill, take a Ferroro Rocher, and if that is not enough take a brandy, there are TWO Shetland ponies out there who are saying to each other, "hey guys, that worked ............high fives"   d  
PS EKW, let me know where you will be next, I will be going to the races this month, its nice to see a nice horse from time to time.


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## snopuma (8 March 2015)

Apercrumbie said:



			Snopuma one of the problems with people sounding critical is that you aren't actually answering anyone's questions so we can't give any more specific advice. How often are you working her?
		
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If u had read you would see that I haven't ridden her since October


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## snopuma (8 March 2015)

Thank you to the few people who can form a nice reply an offer assistance, to the rest of you, I can only hope you find yourselves in a similar situation as mine just once, when you love a horse but that horse has scared you and you are having a very difficult time dealing with her, when all the talent and schooling you once had, appears lost, when the smallest request to trot round the school seem like climbing a mountain and you can't believe that you used to jump foxhunters and win chase me charlies and gallop round fields and ride bareback, and go to affiliated dressage and win, but that one little horse has taken it all away, they say you don't know what you have until you lose it and when in comes to confidence it is so true and so hard to get it back.

And to those who insist I get her worked up at the vets, NO, for the last time NO, she works incredibly well for the trainer, not a hint of a medical problem so please stop banging on.

I poured my heart out in a forum, I have learnt my lesson.


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## Cragrat (8 March 2015)

You say in your first post you bought her because she was "too boring" for her current owners.  So was your confidence already a bit shaky then?


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## ImmyS (8 March 2015)

snopuma said:



			Thank you to the few people who can form a nice reply an offer assistance, to the rest of you, I can only hope you find yourselves in a similar situation as mine just once, when you love a horse but that horse has scared you and you are having a very difficult time dealing with her, when all the talent and schooling you once had, appears lost, when the smallest request to trot round the school seem like climbing a mountain and you can't believe that you used to jump foxhunters and win chase me charlies and gallop round fields and ride bareback, and go to affiliated dressage and win, but that one little horse has taken it all away, they say you don't know what you have until you lose it and when in comes to confidence it is so true and so hard to get it back.

And to those who insist I get her worked up at the vets, NO, for the last time NO, she works incredibly well for the trainer, not a hint of a medical problem so please stop banging on.

I poured my heart out in a forum, I have learnt my lesson.
		
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I hope read this for I experienced very similar with my ex racer mare - down to the panicking out hacking, more so with contact, to just generally being a loony and difficult to handle.

If you want to stick with this mare I would really suggest turning her out 24/7 - or find somewhere where you can - where she has a stable herd, natural exercise and mental stimulation from other horses. If I've learnt anything about the breed, is that mental stimulation is what tires them out and relaxes them NOT physical exercise - they run off nervous energy, but if you can get inside their head and really make them think - they start to unwind and relax.

My next advice would be to strip everything back - no feed, just unlimited hay. If she is underweight then absolute basic feed, minimum starch and sugar possible. You may not want to but take away the bit - ride bitless - after familiarising her with the action. Just a plain rope alter is ideal - but you need to work on flexion from the ground first. I'm tellin you now that taking my mate bitless for a while totally cured her issue of panicking with more contact - it helped her focus and chill out - I honestly believe I wouldn't have ended up with a horse I could hack anywhere calmly by myself if I hadn't taken her bitless. Now back in a bit she is faultless - she just needed to unlearn the panic associated with more contact.

Do a lot of ground work. Get a rope halter, a 22ft rope and get started. Get her bending and flexing on the ground, get her changing direction by hand gestures and body language, get her walking over tarpaulin, around cones, over barrels/poles. Keep her MIND busy!! After a session of doing if this sort of thing my mate would be so content and relaxed it's unbelievable.

With the consistent ground work, with natural horsemanship methods that worked for her - she turned from a horse that sounded exactly like yours to one I could hack anywhere, canter in open spaces on the buckle end, and that a child could handle, she became just totally confident and Therefore relaxed.

I can't exaggerate enough how important mental stimulation is - the busier the mind the better - especially for such an intelligent breed. I know how easy it is to get into a vicious cycle of being scared and then not doing anything with the horse and then the horse gets worse and so on. Consistent and regular work is key. I know natural horsemanship isn't for everyone but I would highly recommend getting an instructor in for a couple of sessions and Give you direction. It might just save you and your horse.


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## Fun Times (8 March 2015)

Snopuma, I am not going to reiterate the need for a vet work up as many people have done so and for your own reasons you have decided not to. Fair enough. So looking at it purely as a behavioural issue, to put this into context I have a warmblood with whom I do BE. If he has more than a couple of days off or more than one day stood in, he can be a real tricky devil under saddle and/or in hand. Hes a flipping ace event horse, but if he was kept on the same routine as your mare he undoubtedly would be a homicidal disaster. 

So if I was in your position and absolutely certain of no underlying medical issues I would be keeping her at a professional training yard where they can manage her turnout and stick her on a walker twice a day. I would want her brought back in to full time work (proper work) and schooled up. Then after six weeks (assuming she comes good) I would decide if I wanted to keep her and manage her or sell her on. I suspect the latter may be the better choice for you so I would be looking to sell her mid summer before you are faced with another winter.


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## snopuma (8 March 2015)

Cragrat said:



			You say in your first post you bought her because she was "too boring" for her current owners.  So was your confidence already a bit shaky then?
		
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No my confidence was fine when I bought her, it was just something the previous owner said when I tried her, just that she was a bit boring as she was so straight forward.


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## snopuma (8 March 2015)

ImmyS said:



			I hope read this for I experienced very similar with my ex racer mare - down to the panicking out hacking, more so with contact, to just generally being a loony and difficult to handle.

If you want to stick with this mare I would really suggest turning her out 24/7 - or find somewhere where you can - where she has a stable herd, natural exercise and mental stimulation from other horses. If I've learnt anything about the breed, is that mental stimulation is what tires them out and relaxes them NOT physical exercise - they run off nervous energy, but if you can get inside their head and really make them think - they start to unwind and relax.

My next advice would be to strip everything back - no feed, just unlimited hay. If she is underweight then absolute basic feed, minimum starch and sugar possible. You may not want to but take away the bit - ride bitless - after familiarising her with the action. Just a plain rope alter is ideal - but you need to work on flexion from the ground first. I'm tellin you now that taking my mate bitless for a while totally cured her issue of panicking with more contact - it helped her focus and chill out - I honestly believe I wouldn't have ended up with a horse I could hack anywhere calmly by myself if I hadn't taken her bitless. Now back in a bit she is faultless - she just needed to unlearn the panic associated with more contact.

Do a lot of ground work. Get a rope halter, a 22ft rope and get started. Get her bending and flexing on the ground, get her changing direction by hand gestures and body language, get her walking over tarpaulin, around cones, over barrels/poles. Keep her MIND busy!! After a session of doing if this sort of thing my mate would be so content and relaxed it's unbelievable.

With the consistent ground work, with natural horsemanship methods that worked for her - she turned from a horse that sounded exactly like yours to one I could hack anywhere, canter in open spaces on the buckle end, and that a child could handle, she became just totally confident and Therefore relaxed.

I can't exaggerate enough how important mental stimulation is - the busier the mind the better - especially for such an intelligent breed. I know how easy it is to get into a vicious cycle of being scared and then not doing anything with the horse and then the horse gets worse and so on. Consistent and regular work is key. I know natural horsemanship isn't for everyone but I would highly recommend getting an instructor in for a couple of sessions and Give you direction. It might just save you and your horse.
		
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Thank you for this advice, I do have a rope halter so will set up some 'obstacles' for her this week x


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## Amymay (8 March 2015)

She sounds as if she just needs a job to do. 

She must also be going out of her mind with boredom if she's stalled and not been ridden since October. 

Can you just not work her?


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## Exploding Chestnuts (8 March 2015)

amymay said:



			She sounds as if she just needs a job to do. 

She must also be going out of her mind with boredom if she's stalled and not been ridden since October. 

Can you just not work her?
		
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lol


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## Exploding Chestnuts (8 March 2015)

Bonkers2 said:



			lol
		
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Sorry, amymay, but there are 16 pages on this thread ........... it seems OP was a confident rider until day 2, when it all went to pieces and that was four years ago .............


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## Amymay (8 March 2015)

I know.... 

It just seems so obvious. 

So I guess the alternatives are sell it,  Or shoot it.


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## paddi22 (8 March 2015)

snopuma said:



			she works incredibly well for the trainer, not a hint of a medical problem so please stop banging on.
		
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wait, you had said the trainer just managed to stick the bucking rearing and broncing.. i wouldn't class that as going incredibly well, i'd class that as just being able to stick on while a horse acted up?!


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## Exploding Chestnuts (8 March 2015)

I am sorry OP, but there is no magic wand, you have persevered for four years, it is too long, send her to a good trainer for a month, I don't know why you have not considered this. 
You are asking if anyone has had a similar problem, and many have had a similar problems, there is no magic wand, and keeping her stabled is about the worse solution.

We are not able to diagnose KS or any other problem.

She is difficult to handle to the point of causing you to punch her in the face, poor thing. This scenario is pointless. She is too much for you. She may have vet issues, but if you don't accept that, then you must accept it is behavioural. That would possibly be brought under control by a professional, [a long time ago I sent one away and he bashed the poor thing in to submission], so you need to find someone who is a] willing to take the risk with something like this and b]able to sort it without using harsh methods.

Even if she is "sorted" by someone else, most behaviours will re-surface when you return the horse to the same situation, so you will need to go for re-training too.

Seriously, what is the best thing to do? .... send it to sales livery, see what transpires.


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## Arizahn (8 March 2015)

snopuma said:



			I am pretty convinced now that when I tried her she was doped I have had one successful ride in walk trot and canter on her and that was the day I brought her home, *the second ride she bronced in the school and bolted* a first for me all other previous horses have had plenty to say so I would say I am accomplished after 37 years of horses but I have never felt like I did that day, I got some professional help after 6 months of avoiding the canter with her and to be fair barely riding her, the professional can ride her, *yep he can he can really ride he sits to all the rearing, broncing and bucking*.  Good for him.  He can't understand what my problem is.  She has been to 2 dressage shows she won both her classes one with him and one with me (*after he had warmed up - she bronced in the warm up*)
		
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She isn't any better for the pro; he just manages to ride through it. In your position, I'd want a second opinion regarding the vet side of things, and then (assuming no cause is found!), some serious re-schooling from the ground up. And if that didn't fix things, I'd PTS before another winter rolls around.


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## Amymay (8 March 2015)

You do say op in a previous thread,  which I've now bumped up,  that the mare has had an ongoing back problem.


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## Exploding Chestnuts (8 March 2015)

snopuma said:



			Thank you for this advice, I do have a rope halter so will set up some 'obstacles' for her this week x
		
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What about turnout? and all the other suggestions, do you seriously think that walking her on a long rope some time this week is going to solve all these issues?


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## Slightlyconfused (8 March 2015)

snopuma said:



			I mean  keep saying get her worked up at the vets, but they have seen her countless times and she is sound she doesn't have KS and when 4 professionals have told me that and explained why she would not be a candidate for that and that it would be a pointless to investigate, when she has a moment in the school, she having fun, not the kind of fun anyone wants, but her kind of fun.
		
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I'm not trying to get at you but just because she is sound doesn't mean she doesn't have anything wrong.

And any horse can be a candidate for Kissing Spine. My Warmblood does exactly what you describe, fab in walk and trot but as soon as asked for canter just kept bringing my sister off. After the second time in a&e I was going to send her to be professionally schooled as I thought it was our problem but first I spoke to vet just to clear all the basics.

He started with a back xray and if that was clear would move on to ovaries then stomach for ulcers.

We didn't get past the back xray. She hd four processes fused directly under the back of the saddle and another four behind that starting to touch. Ot meant that when we asked for canter her spine couldn't make the movement it needed and carry weight as well. 
She was completely sound on the lunge in all three gaits. 

With out back xrays no one knows if a horse has KS or not. Their is no 'type' for it.

Hope you find answers


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## Slightlyconfused (8 March 2015)

snopuma said:



			.

And to those who insist I get her worked up at the vets, NO, for the last time NO, she works incredibly well for the trainer, not a hint of a medical problem so please stop banging on.

I poured my heart out in a forum, I have learnt my lesson.
		
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Actually I think you are taking it all wrong, you haven't answers anys questions on what the vets did, you said she is sound so she is fine body wise but if you look at the others and mine posts about horses that have done a similar to your girl  and the out comes it makes a lot of sense to get something more done vet wise.

There are alot of knowledgeable people on here asking questions and if you would.just answer them.with out getting your back up you might have a bit more help.

This is going to sound mean but I feel sorry for your horse, you just seem so black and white. I say again just because she is sound doesn't mean there isn't a medical problem.

Will leave now as this is just going round in circles


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## Cheiro1 (8 March 2015)

I know you will ignore this but I will say it anyway....VET!

Just because a horse is sound, and can be bullied to behave, does not mean there is nothing wrong.

I watched a horse (not mine) be bullied by his very experienced rider because he would go well one day and then be completely un-ridably explosive the next. On the good days he would have won any dressage test going.

He was bone scanned and he had a sacrilliac injury, that was treated and he never looked back. He competed very successfully in dressage then went on loan to someone who does a bit of everything with him.

Horses are prey animals, they are designed to hide pain. Soundness does not = no pain!!


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## Exploding Chestnuts (8 March 2015)

Cheiro1 said:



			I know you will ignore this but I will say it anyway....VET!

Just because a horse is sound, and can be bullied to behave, does not mean there is nothing wrong.

I watched a horse (not mine) be bullied by his very experienced rider because he would go well one day and then be completely un-ridably explosive the next. On the good days he would have won any dressage test going.

He was bone scanned and he had a sacrilliac injury, that was treated and he never looked back. He competed very successfully in dressage then went on loan to someone who does a bit of everything with him.

Horses are prey animals, they are designed to hide pain. Soundness does not = no pain!!
		
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I suspect you are right.
OP is in denial, I feel  for the horse, and I wonder what those who know her think, I suspect they have given up trying to advise a long time ago.


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## snopuma (8 March 2015)

Why O Why do people keep on about turnout, at the moment I cannot turn her out, my other horse is on box rest, so she has no-one to go out with and when I do turn her out as soon as I let her go she wants to come in, I walk away and leave her for an hour at least she is out of sight of the yard and I muck out, then I sneak up to where I can see the gate and she can't see me and there she is waving a leg at the gate in a terrible state, sweating, covered in mud.


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## Fun Times (8 March 2015)

snopuma said:



			Why O Why do people keep on about turnout, at the moment I cannot turn her out, my other horse is on box rest, so she has no-one to go out with and when I do turn her out as soon as I let her go she wants to come in, I walk away and leave her for an hour at least she is out of sight of the yard and I muck out, then I sneak up to where I can see the gate and she can't see me and there she is waving a leg at the gate in a terrible state, sweating, covered in mud.
		
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So the responses so far are basically:

1. Turn her out. 2. Work her. 3. Vet work up. 4. Send her for schooling. 5. Groundwork. 6. Look at her feed. 7. Sell her. 8. Get a trainer/experienced sharer. 9. Pts. 

Realistically OP what more can people come up with? Of the above options, which do you think is the most viable?


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## Apercrumbie (8 March 2015)

snopuma said:



			If u had read you would see that I haven't ridden her since October
		
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I have read all the way through.  Sorry, I should have phrased better, how often is she being worked?  I'm sorry that I have made you feel defensive, but reading through my replies, bar the last one which was short, I have written out some advice, explained it and said that your situation must be horrible.  I have asked questions as this is how we can give advice, by learning her routine.  The vast majority of people have been supportive and offered advice, bar one or two who have been rude.  There is no need to treat everyone like they are being rude when many people have offered constructive advice.  

I repeat my advice about the work.  It doesn't matter if it's not you doing it but she either needs to be out or she needs to be worked a lot.  Unless a horse is on medical boxrest I'm pretty sure it's illegal for a horse to be in 24/7 without sufficient exercise and stimulation.  This is a welfare issue.  

Does she actually work well for the trainer or does she still try it on in canter?  If she does try it on with the trainer, how much work was she in at the time?  This is important, because if there is nothing physically wrong it simply could be lack of work and a naturally tricky horse.  My old mare was an absolute nightmare if she wasn't ridden 6 days a week.  The work had to be varied or again she would be very naughty.  I had huge issues with my confidence as a result but consistency was the key.  Some horses need more work than others, and it sounds to me as if your mare could potentially be one of those.  You need to decide if you can provide it.

As I see it, if you want to persevere, sending her away to a trainer you trust for a month would be a good investment.  It would give her the level of work she may need and start the road to correcting her behavioural issues so you could then begin to take over.  However, if your confidence is in shreds, I'm not sure it will ever return with this mare as trusting her again will be very difficult for you.


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## Exploding Chestnuts (8 March 2015)

snopuma said:



			Why O Why do people keep on about turnout, at the moment I cannot turn her out, my other horse is on box rest, so she has no-one to go out with and when I do turn her out as soon as I let her go she wants to come in, I walk away and leave her for an hour at least she is out of sight of the yard and I muck out, then I sneak up to where I can see the gate and she can't see me and there she is waving a leg at the gate in a terrible state, sweating, covered in mud.
		
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................ so she has been not turned out since October? this gets worse, may I suggest you ask WHW to come and help you, why do you not get rid of her, it cannot be a worse fate ahead than the situation she is in now.
You said a trainer rode her, is this four years ago or was it yesterday, what has prompted you to come on here, why did you come on here? Have you no compassion for this horse? This is an animal not some status symbol.
This may appear to be rude, it is not my first post and I have followed the thread with increasing concern, not concern for OP, but for the horse.


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## L&M (8 March 2015)

Is there a school or an area of hard standing she would be happier out in?


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## wench (8 March 2015)

snopuma said:



			And to those who insist I get her worked up at the vets, NO, for the last time NO, she works incredibly well for the trainer, not a hint of a medical problem so please stop banging on.

I poured my heart out in a forum, I have learnt my lesson.
		
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I try not to be rude to people on forums... But this comment is an exception. Your poor horse. Do you not think that loads of different people have been in the same situation as you have. You stupid, stupid person. 

I certainly have and if I'd have called the vet sooner, I might have been able to help my horse more than I could have done, and saved her some of the pain she was in... And she certainly wasn't exhibiting issues as bad as yours.


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## Fun Times (8 March 2015)

Bonkers2 said:



			................ so she has been not turned out since October? this gets worse, may I suggest you ask WHW to come and help you, why do you not get rid of her, it cannot be a worse fate ahead than the situation she is in now.
You said a trainer rode her, is this four years ago or was it yesterday, what has prompted you to come on here, why did you come on here? Have you no compassion for this horse? This is an animal not some status symbol.
		
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I don't think she has been in since october. October is when she stopped being ridden and her turnout was gradually reduced during autumn and winter. That's my understanding anyway.....


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## be positive (8 March 2015)

snopuma said:



			Why O Why do people keep on about turnout, at the moment I cannot turn her out, my other horse is on box rest, so she has no-one to go out with and when I do turn her out as soon as I let her go she wants to come in, I walk away and leave her for an hour at least she is out of sight of the yard and I muck out, then I sneak up to where I can see the gate and she can't see me and there she is waving a leg at the gate in a terrible state, sweating, covered in mud.
		
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I think more people have given their experiences of horses with physical issues, frequently in seemingly sound horses, than kept on about her lack of turnout, I have no idea what you were expecting from this thread, you have either ignored or shot down all suggestions, the horse is obviously getting no better, the pro can ride her through her behaviour but has not sorted her out yet you expect someone on here to somehow give you the magic bullet to explain why she behaves the way she does.

I get that she doesn't like being out in the winter, I have had several similar but they will get fresh if not worked hard enough with some variety, it may be that a change of yard would help, what works for some doesn't work for others but if she was mine and I had struggled for this long, I would probably given up long ago if nothing had shown to be physically wrong, then I would either find somewhere to turn her away properly or seriously consider pts if I felt that sending her to a decent sales livery was not an option. 

No one can see what you and others around you can, we only write from our own experiences therefore we will all come at it from slightly different angles, you are the only one that can actually do anything for her, getting a proper veterinary assessment should be the first step.
 I know of someone who sent a horse into hospital for back xrays, suspected KS, the experts decided that the slight changes on xrays were not worth operating on, sent horse home with instructions to sedate to back him, yes that is correct, the horse was very difficult in many ways and had proved impossible to back and fairly wild at the vets, the instructions were ignored horse has recently had an op, elsewhere and has immediately changed in personality, not all vets get things right, in this case they were totally wrong to not operate, it has cost the owners way over the insurance due to them messing about looking at everywhere else once they had ruled out the back.

Listen to the horse, she is trying to tell you something is wrong.


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## Goldenstar (8 March 2015)

snopuma said:



			Why O Why do people keep on about turnout, at the moment I cannot turn her out, my other horse is on box rest, so she has no-one to go out with and when I do turn her out as soon as I let her go she wants to come in, I walk away and leave her for an hour at least she is out of sight of the yard and I muck out, then I sneak up to where I can see the gate and she can't see me and there she is waving a leg at the gate in a terrible state, sweating, covered in mud.
		
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Because to keep her without sufficient exercise and without turnout is simply completely unacceptable .
If you can't turn her out then she should be worked twice a day .
Borrow a pony is that what it takes to get the horse what she needs .


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## Exploding Chestnuts (8 March 2015)

Fun Times said:



			I don't think she has been in since october. October is when she stopped being ridden and her turnout was gradually reduced during autumn and winter. That's my understanding anyway.....
		
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It is not acceptable to keep a horse in stable, punching it the face, and all the rest of the nonsense.
If anyone knows OP and this horse would they please report it to WHW.


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## Fun Times (8 March 2015)

Bonkers2 said:



			It is not acceptable to keep a horse in stable, punching it the face, and all the rest of the nonsense.
If anyone knows OP and this horse would they please report it to WHW.
		
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Hey I never said it was acceptable. I was just trying to respond to your comment about it being in since October as I didnt think that was the case.


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## snopuma (8 March 2015)

OMG, what part of 'SHE WON'T STAY OUT FOR LONGER THAN AN HOUR'  do you people not understand, perhaps you are happy to watch a horse gallop about for hours on end, your horse becoming so stressed at being out that she hurts herself?  Is that what you propose I do, perhaps you could offer some words of wisdom about how you overcome that?  So far every year its only when the weather is better she is happy to go out all day.

There has been some inspiration on this thread for me and I thank those that truly have an insight into Tb's and similar situations and advice has been more than helpful, but, it never ceases to amaze me how the trolls come out to play, to them I say, do you seriously think the horse has been banged up since October? Do you think I don't lunge her or let her kick her heels up in the school? Do you think I don't graze her in hand? All this time?  You simpletons!  You clearly don't have anything constructive or helpful to say you single out part of a sentence and take it out of context, well done 0/10 for you. I guess it makes you feel good about yourself I guess that's why you do it, you must have something lacking in your life.


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## Pearlsasinger (8 March 2015)

I haven't read the rest of the thread after you listed her feed.  Does FF contain alfalfa?  Does she get less/different feed in Spring & Summer?
The TBx mare that I used to have who was very sensitive to some feed improved in summer when she wasn't getting as much feed.  She became agoraphobic, amongst other things, in response to feed.  For years I thought that there were other reasons for her behaviour but it was really all caused by feed.
If yours has any alfalfa at all, I would cut it out of her diet - mine could tolerate alfalfa, in fact that is what I fed her on as she got older but we have one now that can't cope with any - it sends her absolutely loopy!
There are other plausible reasons for your mare's behaviour but I wouldn't be surprised if feed is the root of all her problems.


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## Exploding Chestnuts (8 March 2015)

Fun Times said:



			Hey I never said it was acceptable. I was just trying to respond to your comment about it being in since October as I didnt think that was the case.
		
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Yes, I know, sry, just venting...............


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## Exploding Chestnuts (8 March 2015)

Pearlsasinger said:



			I haven't read the rest of the thread after you listed her feed.  Does FF contain alfalfa?  Does she get less/different feed in Spring & Summer?
The TBx mare that I used to have who was very sensitive to some feed improved in summer when she wasn't getting as much feed.  She became agoraphobic, amongst other things, in response to feed.  For years I thought that there were other reasons for her behaviour but it was really all caused by feed.
If yours has any alfalfa at all, I would cut it out of her diet - mine could tolerate alfalfa, in fact that is what I fed her on as she got older but we have one now that can't cope with any - it sends her absolutely loopy!
There are other plausible reasons for your mare's behaviour but I wouldn't be surprised if feed is the root of all her problems.
		
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You think it is related to feed, FF is just a mix of sugar beet and stuff, its pretty minimal. I would imagine it has had a few different feeds over the 4 years in the hands of OP.


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## Apercrumbie (8 March 2015)

snopuma said:



			OMG, what part of 'SHE WON'T STAY OUT FOR LONGER THAN AN HOUR'  do you people not understand, perhaps you are happy to watch a horse gallop about for hours on end, your horse becoming so stressed at being out that she hurts herself?  Is that what you propose I do, perhaps you could offer some words of wisdom about how you overcome that?  So far every year its only when the weather is better she is happy to go out all day.

There has been some inspiration on this thread for me and I thank those that truly have an insight into Tb's and similar situations and advice has been more than helpful, but, it never ceases to amaze me how the trolls come out to play, to them I say, do you seriously think the horse has been banged up since October? Do you think I don't lunge her or let her kick her heels up in the school? Do you think I don't graze her in hand? All this time?  You simpletons!  You clearly don't have anything constructive or helpful to say you single out part of a sentence and take it out of context, well done 0/10 for you. I guess it makes you feel good about yourself I guess that's why you do it, you must have something lacking in your life.
		
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That's all you had to say.  There's no point in getting frustrated with people going on about something when you won't correct them politely.  If you had quietly explained your routine pages ago then there would have been a lot less aggro.  Tbh you still haven't really explained it properly, as in how much she is getting each day.  You either want advice or you don't.  I have noticed on HHO that the threads that get a bit snarky are those where the OP doesn't really answer any of the questions asked and just gets defensive.


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## Kallibear (8 March 2015)

There is no magic fix for your horse.

Either you completely change everything about how she is kept and ridden (so she can be turned out most of the time, and worked regularly). Or you shoot her. Because she certainly isn't sellable.

Since you won't listen to advice you don't like, and therefore won't change what you're doing, shoot her. It's no fun for you, it's certainly no fun for her and I'd bet quite a lot of money that she's in pain when asked to canter (but you're not willing to investigate that)


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## Goldenstar (8 March 2015)

I just give up.
Poor horse .


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## Leo Walker (8 March 2015)

She doesnt stay out where she is now, but lots of people say there horses wont stay out 24/7. They always do in the right environment! if shes not happy at your yard, then move her! Look for a yard where they have lots of acreage and limited mud. Its doable! My boy who is on loan goes out daily for a paddle in the mud. My other horse is roughly a mile down the road,, ot 24/7 on 30 acres of sandy soil.

But before you do that get a bloody vet workup!! My sister had untold very reputable people out to her mare and not one found a back problem. She went in for a work up as she flipped and went over backwards. They found severe kissing spines. Not one back person had found that, because you bloody well CANT without an xray!


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## Lyle (9 March 2015)

Sorry OP, but your mare is exhibiting behaviour that the majority of us believe could be stemming from pain, with a routine which could also be compounding it. I speak from experience when I say GET A FULL VET WORK UP. My 2* Eventer had a tumble jumping, had time off, worked him back in slowly, but he had become unpredictably explosive in the canter. He showed no other outward signs of pain, irregularity, or that anything was off. Turned out it was a practically career ending injury to his SI. 

I've retrained quite a few OTTBs and can vouch that they need a solid, regular work routine. Better to ride them every day of the week with some easy hacking/walking around the school as 'off days', than to give them time off sometimes. Once they begin to mould into a 'riding' horse rather than a race horse, their work routine can become more flexible. 

I've said before and I'll say it again; from what you've written, I truly believe your mare needs some serious ground work. Not only will this help with your confidence, her obedience and trust, but will also help build her back up physically, help her to become stronger and more supple. Find a good trainer to help you.

No one has any 'tips' or 'hints' which will fix this. We have all answered your plea with firm answers, because the picture you've painted is one which could have devastating outcomes, and is frankly, unusual. Horses don't behave like your mare is 'just because', there is usually a reason and YOU have to find out WHY. Many posters have given you great suggestions for you to now compile into a list, and start ticking them off one by one. It might be the last thing on your list which turns this horse around, no one will know until you try!


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## lastchancer (9 March 2015)

snopuma said:



			Why O Why do people keep on about turnout, at the moment I cannot turn her out, my other horse is on box rest, so she has no-one to go out with and when I do turn her out as soon as I let her go she wants to come in, I walk away and leave her for an hour at least she is out of sight of the yard and I muck out, then I sneak up to where I can see the gate and she can't see me and there she is waving a leg at the gate in a terrible state, sweating, covered in mud.
		
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Because without company and turnout you are p******g in the wind. I'd seriously get her turned out 24/7 and if that doesn't improve things, either get her vetted thoroughly or pts.


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## Kat (9 March 2015)

When you try to turn her out does she have hay in the field?  If not it would be worth trying. It could also be indicative of ulcers if she finds turnout in winter so stressful. 

I think it would be worth moving her to a yard where she can have more exercise. Somewhere with a walker and where she can have hay and company when turned out. Then work her, once a day on the walker once being ridden by a good patient person with experience of OTTBs. 

If on this sort of routine with minimal hard feed she doesn't improve then you would seem to be left with a choice between full investigation at a vets for things like KS and ulcers or putting her to sleep.  If she improves I would sell (honestly) to someone who can give her the work and routine she needs so you can buy a horse that will help you rebuild your confidence.


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## ihatework (9 March 2015)

You don't sound like you are set up to cater for her needs, for whatever reason.
Do the mare a favour and either sell her or put her to sleep, she sounds like a very unhappy horse.


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## H_A_C (9 March 2015)

All i can say is you are incredibly rude, we are all trying to help based on our own in most cases very sad experiences (I hope your horse isn't it pain but the sad reality is that she probably is). But you are dismissing us all. Maybe you should get rid of her even pts would be a better life than living with you I suspect. 

Sorry I am never rude on her but you take the metaphorical biscuit.


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## Elsbells (9 March 2015)

ihatework said:



			You don't sound like you are set up to cater for her needs, for whatever reason.
Do the mare a favour and either sell her or put her to sleep, she sounds like a very unhappy horse.
		
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Take on board all the advice you've been given OP which has come from some VERY experienced Horsepeople, you'd be a fool to dismiss it.

When I needed them, they were there and goodness knows what would of happened if they hadn't helped. There's no axe to grind, they are there without a fee, your horse is crying out to be heard please listen. 

What's done is done for the love of the horse and the horse only.


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## Trules (9 March 2015)

ihatework said:



			You don't sound like you are set up to cater for her needs, for whatever reason.
Do the mare a favour and either sell her or put her to sleep, she sounds like a very unhappy horse.
		
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Hear Hear!


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## ljohnsonsj (9 March 2015)

FrankieCob said:



			Its really not acceptable to punch a horse in the face no matter how frustrated and angry you are! If its got that bad then you need to rehome or PTS if the behaviour is really that bad. Horses dont care about "contracts" or clean beds!
		
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I missed that original comment from snopuma, has it been deleted? What a terrible thing to say,and after all of her comments it's quite obvious who the ignorant one is, and it isn't the horse.


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## unicornystar (9 March 2015)

"You simpletons!"

How incredibly rude, when people are trying to help you.  "my other horse is on box rest" so?? Borrow a pony, shetland, whatever, get this horse some turnout!   I wouldnt have even considered trying to do a thing with my TB unless he had plenty of turnout and hooly time.

If you care about this horse you will stop making excuses and do what people have suggested! A lot of people on here have a hell of a lot more experience from the sounds of it than you.  YES TB's will wave their legs arounds and fence gallop, but get a companion and put some hay out, dont pander to it and generally they start enjoying being out.


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## Exploding Chestnuts (9 March 2015)

ljohnsonsj said:



			I missed that original comment from snopuma, has it been deleted? What a terrible thing to say,and after all of her comments it's quite obvious who the ignorant one is, and it isn't the horse.
		
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Its all in the first post 


QUOTE  "So my predicament is that despite the fact that I love this little madam and she has her good points, she's great in the stable, loves a groom etc... she is the worst horse to lead in from the field, I have tried every gadget and she has no respect, she launches through the air spins round, canters next to you virtually on the spot rears up, she used to put the fear of God into me, she doesn't even respect a chifney I am surprised I have broken her jaw with her carry-on, she has no respect for me at all, now I am not a wus and I give as good as she's gets, I am ashamed to say that I have punched her ignorant face when she has really pushed it with me, not that there was much reaction, in fact little at all, I have tried being overly nice and praising her every good move. Nothing works, she just looks at me like 'Sucker' do my bidding. I have desensitised her with the lunge whip as she was terrified of it, I have never hit her, I just wiggle it on the floor, now she is desensitised she now has decided that she will stop whenever she likes and just look around, and now I am between the rock and the hard place" UNQUOTE

It seems OP wants the horse to behave in exchange for a clean bed, but the horse has not accepted OP's contract, as she explains somewhere else.

We don't know what is the OP's dilemma, what is the Rock, what is the Hard Place.......
I only know the horse must be very unhappy.


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## ljohnsonsj (9 March 2015)

Bonkers2 said:



			Its all in the first post 


QUOTE  "So my predicament is that despite the fact that I love this little madam and she has her good points, she's great in the stable, loves a groom etc... she is the worst horse to lead in from the field, I have tried every gadget and she has no respect, she launches through the air spins round, canters next to you virtually on the spot rears up, she used to put the fear of God into me, she doesn't even respect a chifney I am surprised I have broken her jaw with her carry-on, she has no respect for me at all, now I am not a wus and I give as good as she's gets, I am ashamed to say that I have punched her ignorant face when she has really pushed it with me, not that there was much reaction, in fact little at all, I have tried being overly nice and praising her every good move. Nothing works, she just looks at me like 'Sucker' do my bidding. I have desensitised her with the lunge whip as she was terrified of it, I have never hit her, I just wiggle it on the floor, now she is desensitised she now has decided that she will stop whenever she likes and just look around, and now I am between the rock and the hard place" UNQUOTE

It seems OP wants the horse to behave in exchange for a clean bed, but the horse has not accepted OP's contract, as she explains somewhere else.

We don't know what is the OP's dilemma, what is the Rock, what is the Hard Place.......
		
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Ah I see it now. I did read the first post but totally missed the hitting in the face bit. Nice. What an awful horse, not behaving itself because it has a clean bed, How ungrateful. Some of these horses these days just have no respect!


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## sportsmansB (9 March 2015)

OP... Unfortunately you can't ask for help on a forum and then just get annoyed when the answer isn't what you want to hear. 

Just send her to someone for 4-6 weeks and see how they get on. It might seem expensive but to be honest you have paid livery for nearly 4 years for a horse which has not given you anything in return (for whatever reason) so another wee bit to try and get some clarity seems worthwhile
Losing your confidence is truly terrible - if you do send her somewhere and her behaviour changes then maybe you could go and ride her there a few times and see if you think there is a chance of coming back from this situation- and if not then she is in the best shape to sell anyway. 

I do sympathise with your turnout situation - and some horses couldn't give a c**p about turnout, especially in winter- but she may just be one of the ones who needs it. If that means you need to move her, then thats what you have to do if you want to keep her. Its as simple as that. If she went somewhere where other horses are out 24/7 she may well just settle- the hooleying about could just be learned behaviour. We have had some who have been turfed out for medical reasons who we thought would never settle - but they do. Always. 

Anyway I am not sure why I am bothering typing this because you may well just ignore it if it is not what you want to hear but its worth a try...


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## snopuma (9 March 2015)

Wow the simpletons are back then, if you can't understand what I have said then at the least you could ask a question before you hurl accusations.  My horse is a happy horse, she is happiest when she's in her stable, I would love to turn her out every day ALL day, but even WITH her permanent company of my other horse and hay in the field she would rather try and kill herself galloping round and round for the small time she has had out, of course I am not going to leave her in just because he's on box rest, but at the moment the way their field is there is no point to turn her out with another horse either, I don't think anyone would volunteer their horse as company at the yard, my lame horse is lame because of her, perhaps you are saying that other peoples ponys or shetlands don't matter??? I have previously lost a wonderful horse due to a freak field accident, I am not about to set my mare up for a similar situation.  Not for her and certainly not for a bunch of freaks on a forum.  There have however been some lovely people who have offered great advice, so for the meantime I will as I have this morning, taken her in the school but not as usual to lunge her or let her run about, I have set out some tarps and poles and we have had a great time his morning playing with those and for the first time in a long time we had a connection she was intrigued and bold and pleased with herself and we had a great time, so thank you to the person that recommended that. I will continue to as I have all this time, lunge her, graze her in hand, and to be fair she has only had no turnout for 5 weeks, the field in another week or so will be rolled and harrowed and then when its hopefully a bit warmer I will get her out and if I can't get company for her then she will have to just be next to other horses, I really love this mare, I want her to have all the fun but it is hard when they are so agoraphobic, horses have no sense of cause or consequence she would run until she broke down she would not think to stop, so all of you that insist I am so awful, I assume that you chuck yours out and never give it a second thought?  If so, I won't be taking your advice.  

I will look around for a trainer with more experience of OTTB's and hopefully more of an insight into her behaviour will help, I already have the back lady booked in for 2 weeks time, as mine are always done twice a year as a routine, so at least from a bleak winter and all the abuse on here things look rosier.

What I was looking for on here was perhaps anyone who had a similar situation with a horse, but most of you either think I'm awful or mad, the few that managed to comment giving me some hope I am very grateful to you.

And to those that can't believe anyone could punch a horse, I was leading them both in from the field 3 years ago, it was very muddy and slippy he was on my left and she on my right she flipped out and attempted to go through me and him not wise he's much bigger and I bopped her on her cheek, if you look at  your own hand when your holding a lead rope, its a fist, and if you are holding two horses its not like you have a spare hand, so I am not given to ninja style leg leaping all I had was my hand.  I felt awful, but I had to do it to we were on a tight track with electric fence either side and they both react big time when they touch the fence, so in the same situation I would do it again, it was better than what was about to happen.


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## ljohnsonsj (9 March 2015)

I don't understand how the people on here, who have much experiance and have gone out of their way to give you some help and advice, which you asked for,are 'freaks' and how they are giving you abuse?

I can't understand for the life of me why when people who's horses have behaved similar to how you have described yours have told you that was an early indication of a problem and that a lameness and full work up would be a good road to go down have been shot down in flames by you? You sound like you don't give a hoot about this horse and it's general well being, but you care more about your pride and that's why you won't admit defeat with a horse who is either in pain (most likely) or is not a quiet hacking horse therefore too much for you. I genuinely think the horse is unlikely to be the problem here, but your attitude towards her is the problem. Just because they aren't giving you what you want to hear doesn't make anybody 'unhelpful' or a 'freak' and nor is it 'abuse' it is just truth based on other peoples unfortunate experiances. I hope this horse ends up settled be it with you or someone else.


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## L&M (9 March 2015)

Whoa there - how can you class us 'simpletons' and 'freaks' when all we have done is try to offer advice on the information given?

I have every sympathy with your situation, and have owned a couple of horses that I could just not click with, and both displayed dangerous behaviour. I sold both on quickly to more experienced homes - not only for my sake, but for theirs too.

However YOU posted on the forum so have to accept people will offer an opinion, whether you agree with their opinion or not, and there is no reason to be abusive.

Also I think you need to understand that the fact that you 'love' your horse is neither reflected in what you have posted, and nor will this 'love' stop the horse hurting you again. Also how you can say this horse is 'happy is beyond my comprehension..


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## Scarlett (9 March 2015)

Poor horse. This is exactly how exracers get bad reputations IMO - it's a human problem, not a problem horse.


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## snopuma (9 March 2015)

its  abuse when I have said she has been seen by vets, physio and osteo and still they keep on, I am not dismissing the idea of a work up at the vets, but it is not how she displays, if she is tense or spooky she broncs, if she is calm and the sun is shining etc... she does not, I would assume that if she had a medical problem that she would present the same on every/most occasions regardless of her mood?  I don't know maybe I have been thinking about this situation for nearly 4 years unlike the people on here who have decided whats wrong with her without seeing her or knowing her, and have decided this in a forum in the last 24hours,  seriously who would know more about my mare? Its abuse when I have said I won't sell her, won't PTS and they say I should, they don't seriously think I would take that advice from a bunch of strangers on a forum?  would they like it if I said it about their horses?  I have been told by my YO that when she dies she wants to come back as one of my horses, because I care so much and they want for nothing, so go figure.


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## snopuma (9 March 2015)

L&M said:



			Whoa there - how can you class us 'simpletons' and 'freaks' when all we have done is try to offer advice on the information given?

I have every sympathy with your situation, and have owned a couple of horses that I could just not click with, and both displayed dangerous behaviour. I sold both on quickly to more experienced homes - not only for my sake, but for theirs too.

However YOU posted on the forum so have to accept people will offer an opinion, whether you agree with their opinion or not, and there is no reason to be abusive.

Also I think you need to understand that the fact that you 'love' your horse is neither reflected in what you have posted, and nor will this 'love' stop the horse hurting you again. Also how you can say this horse is 'happy is beyond my comprehension&#8230;..
		
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I didn't say all were simpletons, yep at no point did I say that. I have responded to abuse and that is quite different.


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## snopuma (9 March 2015)

sportsmansB said:



			OP... Unfortunately you can't ask for help on a forum and then just get annoyed when the answer isn't what you want to hear. 

Just send her to someone for 4-6 weeks and see how they get on. It might seem expensive but to be honest you have paid livery for nearly 4 years for a horse which has not given you anything in return (for whatever reason) so another wee bit to try and get some clarity seems worthwhile
Losing your confidence is truly terrible - if you do send her somewhere and her behaviour changes then maybe you could go and ride her there a few times and see if you think there is a chance of coming back from this situation- and if not then she is in the best shape to sell anyway. 

I do sympathise with your turnout situation - and some horses couldn't give a c**p about turnout, especially in winter- but she may just be one of the ones who needs it. If that means you need to move her, then thats what you have to do if you want to keep her. Its as simple as that. If she went somewhere where other horses are out 24/7 she may well just settle- the hooleying about could just be learned behaviour. We have had some who have been turfed out for medical reasons who we thought would never settle - but they do. Always. 

Anyway I am not sure why I am bothering typing this because you may well just ignore it if it is not what you want to hear but its worth a try...
		
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How would moving her help?  I am genuinely intrigued as to what kind of set up you think would work for turnout for her?


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## Amymay (9 March 2015)

I mention it again, just in case you missed it first time around.



amymay said:



			You do say op in a previous thread,  which I've now bumped up,  that the mare has had an ongoing back problem.
		
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## wench (9 March 2015)

So what do you want to do with her? From what I can make out you dont want to move yards, you dont want to sell her, you dont want to take her into the vets for a work up, you dont want to have her PTS?

What do you want to do with her?


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## Rosesandhorses (9 March 2015)

Sounds like you are having a bad time! If she were mine I would do the following and see if it helps- 
- cut out hard feed completely and just give ad lib hay- trial this and see if she responds. If you really feel she needs something give her chaff with added oil so she has calories but nothing that fries her brain
- lunge/loose school/ride her every day- give her some consistency and get her in a routine of being active and giving her brain something to engage in. TB's are mostly very intelligent and need constant questions to keep their attention. 
- if she's been off work since October do ground work for as long as you need to before you get back on- when you do get back on lunge her first and sit on and just stay in walk. You need to stay relaxed and if you don't feel in control you will tense so even if you're only on for 5 mins and build up from there as long as they are a good productive 5 mins with both of you feeling happy then this should help. 
- be firm with her- my old ex racehorse was the kind that if you gave an inch he would take a mile- the first month I had him I had to be extremely firm to set the boundaries 

I would say a majority of the issues are due to her feeling well and full of energy and you worrying about this- bit of a vicious circle but I honestly think the starting point is to cut the feed and work her everyday and go from there. 

I hope this is helpful!


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## Kokopelli (9 March 2015)

snopuma said:



			its  abuse when I have said she has been seen by vets, physio and osteo and still they keep on, I am not dismissing the idea of a work up at the vets, but it is not how she displays, if she is tense or spooky she broncs, if she is calm and the sun is shining etc... she does not, I would assume that if she had a medical problem that she would present the same on every/most occasions regardless of her mood?  I don't know maybe I have been thinking about this situation for nearly 4 years unlike the people on here who have decided whats wrong with her without seeing her or knowing her, and have decided this in a forum in the last 24hours,  seriously who would know more about my mare? Its abuse when I have said I won't sell her, won't PTS and they say I should, they don't seriously think I would take that advice from a bunch of strangers on a forum?  would they like it if I said it about their horses?  I have been told by my YO that when she dies she wants to come back as one of my horses, because I care so much and they want for nothing, so go figure.
		
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Just an idea if she's worse when it's windy or cold could be joints or something along those lines.

My boy whose always been a bit Bucky and quirky started broncing big time. The first thing I did was ring the vet, the last thing I wanna do is get after the poor ****** if he's in pain. Turns out he has arthritis in both hocks and very mild KS and the cold weather brought on the symptoms.

Honestly I would recommend getting x rays. It's not fair on her to put it down to behaviour if you haven't explored all options. A couple of steroid injections later my boy is back to his happy slightly quirky self. I no longer feel like I'm going to eat dirt and my boy is happy.


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## stilltrying (9 March 2015)

I've not read all the pages, and gather everyone's got a bit excited! 

Based on the first post - I'd say that leaping about / rearing whilst being lead is downright rude.  Some horses would never dream of behaving like this, but some will give it a go because they object to whatever, and if they get away with it a couple of times then it becomes a response to anything they dont want to do. My chap can be a git when he wants to - so i got him a rope pressure halter and lead him in that and a lunge line if I know he is likely to protest over something (usually coming in and leaving his field mates before its bedtime - he is pretty predictable!).    

As for the ridden....I wouldn't want to suggest a costly veterinary work up having not seen the horse. I'd suggest get the opinion of someone who knows the mare who you trust. Trainer says she's ok and you are being a wimp?  If you dont buy that school of thought, why not get a second opinion from a different trainer. If you have money to spend - why not send to a behaviour specialist like Jason Webb.   You will get a straight answer and training in how to deal with her if its behavioural. 

I see above people are mentioning turn out, as said not read prev pages but if she's not turned out then i can see how that could be a massive issue. There is a lovely sports horse at our yard who is always FULL of beans.  His owner, whilst not afraid of him, has arthritis in her wrists and has lost him a few times when he's decided to stand up. He now knows this and can be an absolute pig to handle if he's not had enough turnout...


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## Fun Times (9 March 2015)

Snopuma I tried to be nice and reasonable and objective and helpful, as did many others. To have you state we are simpletons and freaks is a bit rich. We, after all, are not the ones stuck with a horse in its stable that we can't do anything with. Keep going with the tarps and walking over poles, am sure it will all come good in no time at all with that regime.


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## snopuma (9 March 2015)

Rosesandhorses said:



			Sounds like you are having a bad time! If she were mine I would do the following and see if it helps- 
- cut out hard feed completely and just give ad lib hay- trial this and see if she responds. If you really feel she needs something give her chaff with added oil so she has calories but nothing that fries her brain
- lunge/loose school/ride her every day- give her some consistency and get her in a routine of being active and giving her brain something to engage in. TB's are mostly very intelligent and need constant questions to keep their attention. 
- if she's been off work since October do ground work for as long as you need to before you get back on- when you do get back on lunge her first and sit on and just stay in walk. You need to stay relaxed and if you don't feel in control you will tense so even if you're only on for 5 mins and build up from there as long as they are a good productive 5 mins with both of you feeling happy then this should help. 
- be firm with her- my old ex racehorse was the kind that if you gave an inch he would take a mile- the first month I had him I had to be extremely firm to set the boundaries 

I would say a majority of the issues are due to her feeling well and full of energy and you worrying about this- bit of a vicious circle but I honestly think the starting point is to cut the feed and work her everyday and go from there. 

I hope this is helpful!
		
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Thank you! this is very helpful xxx


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## snopuma (9 March 2015)

Fun Times said:



			Snopuma I tried to be nice and reasonable and objective and helpful, as did many others. To have you state we are simpletons and freaks is a bit rich. We, after all, are not the ones stuck with a horse in its stable that we can't do anything with. Keep going with the tarps and walking over poles, am sure it will all come good in no time at all with that regime.
		
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Lovely thank you for that I wonder why I thought simpletons, just a quick question, How do you teach a horse to trust you in an unusual situation?  How do you teach a horse to be braver and less spooky?  The groundwork today was brilliant but thanks for bursting that bubble.  Fun Times I think not.


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## snopuma (9 March 2015)

stilltrying said:



			I've not read all the pages, and gather everyone's got a bit excited! 

Based on the first post - I'd say that leaping about / rearing whilst being lead is downright rude.  Some horses would never dream of behaving like this, but some will give it a go because they object to whatever, and if they get away with it a couple of times then it becomes a response to anything they dont want to do. My chap can be a git when he wants to - so i got him a rope pressure halter and lead him in that and a lunge line if I know he is likely to protest over something (usually coming in and leaving his field mates before its bedtime - he is pretty predictable!).    

As for the ridden....I wouldn't want to suggest a costly veterinary work up having not seen the horse. I'd suggest get the opinion of someone who knows the mare who you trust. Trainer says she's ok and you are being a wimp?  If you dont buy that school of thought, why not get a second opinion from a different trainer. If you have money to spend - why not send to a behaviour specialist like Jason Webb.   You will get a straight answer and training in how to deal with her if its behavioural. 

I see above people are mentioning turn out, as said not read prev pages but if she's not turned out then i can see how that could be a massive issue. There is a lovely sports horse at our yard who is always FULL of beans.  His owner, whilst not afraid of him, has arthritis in her wrists and has lost him a few times when he's decided to stand up. He now knows this and can be an absolute pig to handle if he's not had enough turnout...
		
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Thank you his makes a lot of sense x


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## snopuma (9 March 2015)

amymay said:



			I mention it again, just in case you missed it first time around.
		
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Erm, its not an on going back problem, she had a sore muscle on her rump she was a flat racer, I got the back lady out just after I bought her and 2 sessions and some exercises and the problem went, she has the back lady every 6 months, this sore muscle has never reoccurred and she just has a 'once over' session to check we don't have any other issues.


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## wench (9 March 2015)

snopuma said:



			Lovely thank you for that I wonder why I thought simpletons, just a quick question, How do you teach a horse to trust you in an unusual situation?  How do you teach a horse to be braver and less spooky?  The groundwork today was brilliant but thanks for bursting that bubble.  Fun Times I think not.
		
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You will often find a spooky horse is in pain. 

I suggest you look at posts in the tack room from minchen and her horse, and there is one knocking around about a bridle lame horse.


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## Fun Times (9 March 2015)

snopuma said:



			Lovely thank you for that I wonder why I thought simpletons, just a quick question, How do you teach a horse to trust you in an unusual situation?  How do you teach a horse to be braver and less spooky?  The groundwork today was brilliant but thanks for bursting that bubble.  Fun Times I think not.
		
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But your original issue wasn't about making her braver or less spooky. It was about the fact you can't safely lead or ride her. Am genuinely sure the groundwork will help with spooky/brave issues but I had thought your original qu was about her broncing like stink with you in canter? Am not convinced a tarp will fix that.


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## Roasted Chestnuts (9 March 2015)

Ok thread has gotten too long for me to be bothered to trawl through it.

First of all if this was myself I would be asking myself what I wanted from this horse. 

I would be also asking myself if this is all worth it as what you have described about this mare so basically she is good to play with in the stable and that's it. Now some of this may be lack of turnout but it could also just be the mare.

Just from reading some of your posts and the time you have had this horse and been on this forum and probably read similar threads it has never occurred to you to get the vet out for a full workup? You are refusing to do so based on her movement etc which won't show you everything. My old horse is sound and over tracking in walk trot and canter using the full school on a long rein so if I always rode him like this anyone looking at him would think he was perfectly sound with no issues. Collect him up and he's again sound in W/T/C on full school but ask for smaller circles and he's not right. He has confirmed arthritis ( he's is 24) but to anyone casually looking he's sound. Just goes to show

Honestly if this was me I would get a full work up done by the vet. If something is found then I would weigh up the options for the mare. If this is not a physical issue and purely behavioural then you have had three and a half years to address it. So I would honestly be thinking get my finger out my butt and give her your undivided attention and try and sort her issues out or I would be looking to PTS.

Horses are meant to be fun. When I was younger I took on projects spent the time and effort and loved watching them turnaround. Now I have too much to lose and I want to have fun and enjoy riding so projects aren't as appealing anymore. It may be kinder to the mare and to yourself if you cannot sort her out to let her go and PTS as you could not in good conscience sell her on.

Purely going on my reading your posts on this thread OP good luck and be safe.


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## snopuma (9 March 2015)

Fun Times said:



			But your original issue wasn't about making her braver or less spooky. It was about the fact you can't safely lead or ride her. Am genuinely sure the groundwork will help with spooky/brave issues but I had thought your original qu was about her broncing like stink with you in canter? Am not convinced a tarp will fix that.
		
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What you don't think if I could get her to trust me, trust that I won't put her in harms way, that groundwork would not help with hacking and spooking in the school when ridden?  She can trot round in the school just fine but if a bird farts she's off, sometimes a small skuttle sometimes she brings out the big guns, So I assume you suggest I just get on and cling on for dear life, that's not gonna happen.


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## Fun Times (9 March 2015)

snopuma said:



			What you don't think if I could get her to trust me, trust that I won't put her in harms way, that groundwork would not help with hacking and spooking in the school when ridden?  She can trot round in the school just fine but if a bird farts she's off, sometimes a small skuttle sometimes she brings out the big guns, So I assume you suggest I just get on and cling on for dear life, that's not gonna happen.
		
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Of course that's not what I suggest. My suggestions were about fifteen pages back. I actually accepted your decision not to get a full vet work up. I think that alone does indeed justify you calling me a simpleton. Ets, the reason I was negative about the tarps idea isnt because I don't think it serves a purpose for particular issues, but those werent the issues your originally posted about.


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## Exploding Chestnuts (9 March 2015)

snopuma said:



			What you don't think if I could get her to trust me, trust that I won't put her in harms way, that groundwork would not help with hacking and spooking in the school when ridden?  She can trot round in the school just fine but if a bird farts she's off, sometimes a small skuttle sometimes she brings out the big guns, So I assume you suggest I just get on and cling on for dear life, that's not gonna happen.
		
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I think that a horse will trust a handler who is confident, experienced and consistent. You have failed the mare in all these factors.  You do not have the facilities or the experience to deal with her, accept it and find another home for her.
You seem to think that you can talk to her, negotiate terms,  and get her to accept your ideas, but that is not how it works.


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## Goldenstar (9 March 2015)

snopuma said:



			What you don't think if I could get her to trust me, trust that I won't put her in harms way, that groundwork would not help with hacking and spooking in the school when ridden?  She can trot round in the school just fine but if a bird farts she's off, sometimes a small skuttle sometimes she brings out the big guns, So I assume you suggest I just get on and cling on for dear life, that's not gonna happen.
		
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There are lots of reasons that horses are overly reactive .

Pain , chronic and acute .
Bad training .
Bad riding .
Inappropriate management 
Inappropriate diets including horses with intolerances .
Dental issues including those horses with problems with the jaw joint.
Some horses are sharper than others the sharp ones need riders who like working with that type .
Trust is not something the horse gives you it's something you teach the horse .


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## DollyPentreath (9 March 2015)

amymay said:



			I mention it again, just in case you missed it first time around.

Quote Originally Posted by amymay  View Post
You do say op in a previous thread, which I've now bumped up, that the mare has had an ongoing back problem.
		
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Intrigued now (after refusing to get involved curiosity has got me!). Has she actually got a bad back? Genuine question, just wondered if there is an issue that you may have thought was resolved. 

Sorry, Amymay, can't find the actual post.


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## snopuma (9 March 2015)

Bonkers2 said:



			I think that a horse will trust a handler who is confident, experienced and consistent. You have failed the mare in all these factors.  You do not have the facilities or the experience to deal with her, accept it and find another home for her.
You seem to think that you can talk to her, negotiate terms,  and get her to accept your ideas, but that is not how it works.
		
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What facilities do you think I need?  No I have not failed her and No I am not going to sell her on or give her away and not going to take that kind of advice from someone who has quite frankly been outrageously rude in their comments.


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## Exploding Chestnuts (9 March 2015)

snopuma said:



			What facilities do you think I need?  No I have not failed her and No I am not going to sell her on or give her away and not going to take that kind of advice from someone who has quite frankly been outrageously rude in their comments.
		
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I know you won't take my advice or that of any other experienced people on here, but maybe tomorrow you might  see the light, lets hope so.
People get annoyed because of your responses.


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## snopuma (9 March 2015)

Bonkers2 said:



			I know you won't take my advice or that of any other experienced people on here, but maybe tomorrow you might  see the light, lets hope so.
People get annoyed because of your responses.
		
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You still didn't answer my question, What facilities do you think I need?


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## Fun Times (9 March 2015)

snopuma said:



			You still didn't answer my question, What facilities do you think I need?
		
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Would it matter what the response was? I suggested a walker about 400 posts back but you didn't respond to that idea.


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## Lyle (9 March 2015)

Ok, while I think it's great you've started some form of groundwork, why are you so resistant to get a professional to instil some vital on-the-ground buttons? Horses will automatically respect their 'leader', but they need to show confidence, competency and have thoroughly asserted their leadership through fairness and skill. I've really 'seen the light' when it comes to ground work, after trying to work with a pushy, bargy, all-flattening warmblood. Within 3 sessions, a professional had this horse responding basically to body language, and I now realise these are cues a difficult to handle horse must understand. When lunging, simply stopping my feet will cause this horse to stop and face-up, even if he's spooked and tanked off. He can yield quarters and shoulders, perform 180° turns. All this was established BEFORE we started pushing the 'trust' boundaries. You need to have the tools in place to bring the horse's attention back to you if something goes wrong.


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## dominobrown (9 March 2015)

We have a turnout pen at work which I use a lot with the fresh horses. Some days, yes they do gallop around like twerps and come in all hot and sweaty, but they are certainly better behaved the next day!
Also groundwork won't do you or your horse any harm, it sounds like you are not the 'boss' and she doesn't follow and trust you completely so you can work on this from the ground.
I would recommend you are very strict with yourself with routine, making sure you exercise, turnout or whatever at the same time everyday. Maybe consider either sending her away for a week or two or getting your trainer to come everyday to 'get her going' again under saddle and then you can start where they left off. 

And finally the tension and explosions... its a chicken and egg thing... why is she tense? A tense, tight horse will exhibit signs of pain as their muscles etc are engaged, for instance with a KS if the horse is hollow, short in neck and tense in the back a 'mild ks' will be active, meanwhile a relaxed horse working long and low working 'up' in the back will actually 'open' the spine and will actually disengage a ks. Just next time she is 'off on one' take a step back and really think why.


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## Goldenstar (9 March 2015)

snopuma said:



			You still didn't answer my question, What facilities do you think I need?
		
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I'll answer that .
You need to provide a suitable rider a safe place for the rider to work her you need to provide work for a least six days a week and horses who are challenging get worked seven days a week here 
You need to provide turnout and a horse companion for when turned out .
You need to provide enough exercise to keep the horse feeling calm and happy and that in my book means long slow hacking and you need a suitable companion ( horse and rider ) to do that safely .
If she where mine I would be leading her from another horse in a group of horses.
I would provide routine IME this type of horse does best when they have a set routine .
All of this is just simple horse stuff it's not about fancy facillities ( but you do need somewhere enclosed to train a difficult horse )
A horse only learns to be ridden by being ridden the issues will never magically disappear .


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## Amymay (9 March 2015)

snopuma said:



			Erm, its not an on going back problem, she had a sore muscle on her rump she was a flat racer, I got the back lady out just after I bought her and 2 sessions and some exercises and the problem went, she has the back lady every 6 months, this sore muscle has never reoccurred and she just has a 'once over' session to check we don't have any other issues.
		
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Ah, ok. I must have misunderstood what you had written on a previous thread.



snopuma said:



			had her saddle checked and physio etc.. over the years and she is always tight in the rump one side which alternates and is easily fixed with a visit from saddler and physio,
		
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## Goldenstar (9 March 2015)

amymay said:



			Ah, ok. I must have misunderstood what you had written on a previous thread.
		
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Well there you go .


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## {97702} (9 March 2015)

Bonkers2 said:



			I think that a horse will trust a handler who is confident, experienced and consistent. You have failed the mare in all these factors.  You do not have the facilities or the experience to deal with her, accept it and find another home for her.
You seem to think that you can talk to her, negotiate terms,  and get her to accept your ideas, but that is not how it works.
		
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This entirely - my heart goes out to this poor mare, you claim to love her but to love her would mean you would want the best for her which does not appear to be the case.

If you have not bonded in 4 years you are not going to do so now IMHO - find this mare a home with a confident, calm rider who will give the mare clear parameters which delineate the behaviour expected of her and will work with her until she understands what she needs to do.

There are probably health issues that should be investigated, through a proper lameness work up/vet examination - hopefully her new owner will be responsible enough to do that for her.  

You remind me so much of the lady who I bought my TB from - she claimed to love him to bits, was allegedly devastated to have to sell him, but apparently had failed to notice that he had chronic back and pelvis issues which took me a couple of years to sort out.....


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## snopuma (9 March 2015)

Fun Times said:



			Would it matter what the response was? I suggested a walker about 400 posts back but you didn't respond to that idea.
		
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Your suggestion for a horse that everybody is utterly convinced has KS or SI is a walker? Really? The only walker that is proved suitable not to cause damage to the horse is the oval shaped type, very rare to find one of these on a livery yard and to be fair not every yard has a walker, so yes I dismissed it.


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## snopuma (9 March 2015)

Lyle said:



			Ok, while I think it's great you've started some form of groundwork, why are you so resistant to get a professional to instil some vital on-the-ground buttons? Horses will automatically respect their 'leader', but they need to show confidence, competency and have thoroughly asserted their leadership through fairness and skill. I've really 'seen the light' when it comes to ground work, after trying to work with a pushy, bargy, all-flattening warmblood. Within 3 sessions, a professional had this horse responding basically to body language, and I now realise these are cues a difficult to handle horse must understand. When lunging, simply stopping my feet will cause this horse to stop and face-up, even if he's spooked and tanked off. He can yield quarters and shoulders, perform 180° turns. All this was established BEFORE we started pushing the 'trust' boundaries. You need to have the tools in place to bring the horse's attention back to you if something goes wrong.
		
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I do understand that groundwork is important but I don't hold with Parelli, I do however like Monty Roberts way of thinking but I don't have access to a round pen, what I do have access to is a 60x20 sand and rubber surfaced, fenced all round beautiful ménage. which on occasion I have in the past fenced of with the jumps a 20x 20 area to work her in.  I do have a lovely horse to turn out and the stable yard is large and she wanders along beautifully with you round the yard to be groomed, bathed etc.. she stops when you stop without even taking up the lead rope tension or getting ahead of me, but the one place she is awful is coming in from being out, we have to cross one field then onto a muddy track for about 700yds then onto a gravel drive for another 300yds, then we are back into the yard, she uses to be awful all the way all the time, now in the summer she is pretty good all the way, but when winter comes she is now awful from the moment you open the gate until we reach the gravel, at least that last part she is okay on, but on the mud she is dangerous, she has slid over completely on her side before and its frightening to see, she just wants IN and she wants it now, now don't get me wrong I have one of the longest walks on the farm to turnout and back again and I do covert the near to the yard fields but the mess she makes when she kicks off you wouldn't want that near to the farmhouse and the chance of her setting all the youngsters off is not worth it, I have kept my horses there for well over a decade it is one of the loveliest places around and the YO is brilliant.  We do have plans to move to in the next few years to a house with land and stables and the first thing I will do for my mare is build and allweather paddock with a field shelter so she can have a better lifestyle than she does now in the winter.


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## Apercrumbie (9 March 2015)

What Lyle is talking about isn't parelli, it's just decent ground manners!  

Get a strict routine, find a way to work her far far more than she is being now under professional supervision.  Preferably also get her out.  This isn't going to just go away.


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## justabob (9 March 2015)

Thoroughbreds are always sharper in the winter, that is a fact. This horse has been over analysed and just needs correct handling from a decent jockey and a suitable environment.


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## Slightlyconfused (9 March 2015)

snopuma said:



			its  abuse when I have said she has been seen by vets, physio and osteo and still they keep on, I am not dismissing the idea of a work up at the vets, but it is not how she displays, if she is tense or spooky she broncs, if she is calm and the sun is shining etc... she does not, I would assume that if she had a medical problem that she would present the same on every/most occasions regardless of her mood?
		
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My warm blood mare was exactly the same, we have a NH trainer out for ground work which helped.but when ridden if she was relaxed it was all good but went she tensed up she just exploded. Same with when.working her long and low, all fine but when asked to come.up into a contact.explosion you coming off at a rate of knots. But she was and still is sound as a pound and the way she moves you would never even guess she has anything wrong with her. She has this heart breaking floaty trot and can go into extension with just a.breath and it takes my breath away that I can't ride her but I am.so so grateful that I got a.work up done before I sent her to a pro. If I hadn't she would have seriously injured someone. The KS xray cost me £140 of my insurance excess or it would have only been £300 if I had had to pay. 

I'm not going to get at you about not turning out as there is a horse (ex racer too) at my yard who hates winter and will not go out for longer than an hour. Lady has been here three.years and tried alsorts but she just won't do it. So she just gets lunged/loose schooled or ridden everyday. 
Once may comes round she is happy to be out as.much as she can


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## Slightlyconfused (9 March 2015)

justabob said:



			Thoroughbreds are always sharper in the winter, that is a fact. This horse has been over analysed and just needs correct handling from a decent jockey and a suitable environment.
		
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Actually no its not a fact. I know of two TBs both ex racers who are complete donkeys all year round and one of them.is mine


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## justabob (9 March 2015)

Slightlyconfused said:



			Actually no its not a fact. I know of two TBs both ex racers who are complete donkeys all year round and one of them.is mine

Lucky you, wish I had one like that.
		
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## paddi22 (9 March 2015)

the turnout thing would be such a major issue with my lad. He would be a loon with limited turnout. Even on yards that did turnout, if they were an hour late taking him in he would melt, as he needed a routine. I ended up moving yards 4 times till i got a yard that suited him. Eventually ended up on 24/7 turnout and he's never been happier - and this was a horse who would run through fences, pace edges and sweat foam on some yards. Now he is completely chilled and much happier, and those issues disappeared.


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## Pearlsasinger (9 March 2015)

Bonkers2 said:



			You think it is related to feed, FF is just a mix of sugar beet and stuff, its pretty minimal. I would imagine it has had a few different feeds over the 4 years in the hands of OP.
		
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The reason I advised looking at the feed, is that I had a mare whose behaviour was so extreme that she was on the point of PTS, when sister just happened to read an article about a horse which had been cured of a lameness issue, and a cough by taking it off hard feed.  My horse had a cough at the time, so in order to make her more comfortable, while we decided what to do with her, we took her off all hard feed.
The result was miraculous, within the space of a week, her behaviour was back to that of a 'normal' horse, although during that week she had exhibited the behaviours of a drug addict going 'cold turkey'.
Over the years and with different horses, I have learned that 'stuff', no matter how harmless it seems can affect individual horses very badly.  I have had horse react to; molasses, all cereals, seaweed, glucosamine, Brewer's Yeast, NAF haylage balancer and PinkPowder, alfalfa and carrots.
If I were OP, I would stop feeding this horse everything except ad-lib hay, to see if that makes a difference.


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## OwnedbyJoe (10 March 2015)

I've started posting so many times on this thread.. Then decided it wasn't worth it, then started again...
I'm a vet.
YOU NEED A VET. Not a back lady or a chiro or a saddle fitter.. a VET. One who can do a proper work up, not just watch her trotted out in hand. She's an ex flat racer with unpredictable behavioural issues. More than 50% of them come off the track with physical problems, so the odds are already stacked against you.
She's gone from whispering ("scuttling" in response to a the pain, NOT to a spook) to screaming at you "full on broncing). A "recurrent muscle issue" is an indication that something deeper is out of whack (SI, pelvis), otherwise it would not be recurrent!
I would hazard a guess the reason she is worse to bring in than to turn out is NOT because she is desperate to get back in but because she is in a panic in anticipation of being ridden when she gets there!
She is good to handle in the yard and when doing groundwork because she does not then have to anticipate being ridden, which hurts.
The professionals you HAVE used (rider, "back lady" need to be shot for not suggesting a veterinary work up.
There, now I've posted. I'll wait to be called a simpleton.


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## Exploding Chestnuts (10 March 2015)

By UK law no chiro or physio should work on a horse without a vet having given his assent. I would be surprised if any vet would advise anything other than a work up given the symptoms, but as we know from her postings, OP is not likely to take any such advice on board. 
We don't know what any of the professionals have advised, it is not likely the instructor is working with OP on a regular basis, as even the best of them would balk at something which broncs, the risk of injury is too great.
I don't know what more we can do to get this horse out of its predicament.


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## wench (10 March 2015)

Also worth nothing that physio, chiro etc can't always pick up on things like KS until the horse is in a lot of pain with it.


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## AdorableAlice (10 March 2015)

OwnedbyJoe said:



			I've started posting so many times on this thread.. Then decided it wasn't worth it, then started again...
I'm a vet.
YOU NEED A VET. Not a back lady or a chiro or a saddle fitter.. a VET. One who can do a proper work up, not just watch her trotted out in hand. She's an ex flat racer with unpredictable behavioural issues. More than 50% of them come off the track with physical problems, so the odds are already stacked against you.
She's gone from whispering ("scuttling" in response to a the pain, NOT to a spook) to screaming at you "full on broncing). A "recurrent muscle issue" is an indication that something deeper is out of whack (SI, pelvis), otherwise it would not be recurrent!
I would hazard a guess the reason she is worse to bring in than to turn out is NOT because she is desperate to get back in but because she is in a panic in anticipation of being ridden when she gets there!
She is good to handle in the yard and when doing groundwork because she does not then have to anticipate being ridden, which hurts.
The professionals you HAVE used (rider, "back lady" need to be shot for not suggesting a veterinary work up.
There, now I've posted. I'll wait to be called a simpleton.
		
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Amen. 

Lets hope the horse gets the help it needs.


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## Exploding Chestnuts (10 March 2015)

wench said:



			Also worth nothing that physio, chiro etc can't always pick up on things like KS until the horse is in a lot of pain with it.
		
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We know that. 
OP has been advised to get a vet so many times, but apparently she does not think there is a veterinary problem, so she thinks there is no need for a workup. The fact that no one agrees with her on this, or on anything else is a problem without an obvious solution.


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## Exploding Chestnuts (10 March 2015)

wench said:



			Also worth nothing that physio, chiro etc can't always pick up on things like KS until the horse is in a lot of pain with it.
		
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We know that. 
OP has been advised to get a vet so many times, but apparently she does not think there is a veterinary problem, so she thinks there is no need for a workup. The fact that no one agrees with her on this, or on anything else is a problem without an obvious solution.


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## Fun Times (10 March 2015)

snopuma said:



			Your suggestion for a horse that everybody is utterly convinced has KS or SI is a walker? Really? The only walker that is proved suitable not to cause damage to the horse is the oval shaped type, very rare to find one of these on a livery yard and to be fair not every yard has a walker, so yes I dismissed it.
		
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So you dismissed my idea due to concerns regarding KS or SI. Good. Best news for your mare. I assume you are on your way to the vets to get it looked into then.


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## ozpoz (10 March 2015)

OwnedbyJoe said:



			I've started posting so many times on this thread.. Then decided it wasn't worth it, then started again...
I'm a vet.
YOU NEED A VET. Not a back lady or a chiro or a saddle fitter.. a VET. One who can do a proper work up, not just watch her trotted out in hand. She's an ex flat racer with unpredictable behavioural issues. More than 50% of them come off the track with physical problems, so the odds are already stacked against you.
She's gone from whispering ("scuttling" in response to a the pain, NOT to a spook) to screaming at you "full on broncing). A "recurrent muscle issue" is an indication that something deeper is out of whack (SI, pelvis), otherwise it would not be recurrent!
I would hazard a guess the reason she is worse to bring in than to turn out is NOT because she is desperate to get back in but because she is in a panic in anticipation of being ridden when she gets there!
She is good to handle in the yard and when doing groundwork because she does not then have to anticipate being ridden, which hurts.
The professionals you HAVE used (rider, "back lady" need to be shot for not suggesting a veterinary work up.
There, now I've posted. I'll wait to be called a simpleton.
		
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Absolutely this.


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## snopuma (10 March 2015)

OwnedbyJoe said:



			I've started posting so many times on this thread.. Then decided it wasn't worth it, then started again...
I'm a vet.
YOU NEED A VET. Not a back lady or a chiro or a saddle fitter.. a VET. One who can do a proper work up, not just watch her trotted out in hand. She's an ex flat racer with unpredictable behavioural issues. More than 50% of them come off the track with physical problems, so the odds are already stacked against you.
She's gone from whispering ("scuttling" in response to a the pain, NOT to a spook) to screaming at you "full on broncing). A "recurrent muscle issue" is an indication that something deeper is out of whack (SI, pelvis), otherwise it would not be recurrent!
I would hazard a guess the reason she is worse to bring in than to turn out is NOT because she is desperate to get back in but because she is in a panic in anticipation of being ridden when she gets there!
She is good to handle in the yard and when doing groundwork because she does not then have to anticipate being ridden, which hurts.
The professionals you HAVE used (rider, "back lady" need to be shot for not suggesting a veterinary work up.
There, now I've posted. I'll wait to be called a simpleton.
		
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I am amazed from the other side of the world you know my routine with her, when in work she is mostly ridden before she gets turned out, so how would she be frightened and anxious about coming in to be ridden.  Horses don't think that far ahead they live in the now, they have no future plans as a vet I would have expected you to know that.  Why then after the first canter and buck does she work nicely? If she's in so much pain? She hasn't had any muscle spasm for well over 18 months as usual people on a forum grab a sentence and run with it.  The problem is getting on a very well mare not an ill one.


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## snopuma (10 March 2015)

Fun Times said:



			So you dismissed my idea due to concerns regarding KS or SI. Good. Best news for your mare. I assume you are on your way to the vets to get it looked into then.
		
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Nicely dodged you once again didn't address the question.


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## Exploding Chestnuts (10 March 2015)

snopuma said:



			Nicely dodged you once again didn't address the question.
		
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We have addressed the question, which is what do I do ?

Get it vetted 
Bring it back in to work or turn it out in retirement 24/7 with a pal or send it to someone who can school it.


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## millikins (10 March 2015)

I posted last year about a horse owned by someone I know displaying similar behaviour. A dope to handle but dangerous ridden, took 15 mins to get on, each time approaching as though first backing then gentle walking, even after all that it usually bronced when asked for any more. They bought it as an ISH, I personally think it was an OTTB with a dodgy passport. Eventually I got sick of being told the physio had seen it, the saddler was coming (again) X had told them to lunge it and I called WHW. The horse then saw a vet and was diagnosed with an old neck injury, surprisingly not its back but was unsafe to ride which lends weight to my TB theory. This one has now gone to one of the "alternative" careers open to large horses. (Not PTS but don't want to be too obvious). My acquaintance like you loved the horse but had her head very firmly wedged in the sand.


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## Meowy Catkin (10 March 2015)

Snopuma. I used to assist with retraining ex racers and if one went from 'boring' (as described by the former owner) to how you describe her now, we would want to find out why. I know that you have considered doping, but the first thing that we would rule out is pain as a cause. I know that several vets have seen her - and as I stated earlier I feel that they have let you and the horse down by not taking her in to investigate her properly. I don't understand why you are so against x-rays and a proper work up. I've known so many horses over the years that weren't lame, but did have issues on proper investigation.


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## unicornystar (10 March 2015)

Wasting my breath but as I care about horses......

Have you had an X ray on her spine? yes or no?

If not HOW do you know there is nothing physically wrong with her??

Mine with KS was competing regularly, sometimes broncing sometimes not........whether she is very well or not, if she is broncing ANYTIME at all, personally I would want to know I had covered everything and if not KS then at least you know you are dealing with some other issue or simple hi jinx.

Either way you clearly dont have enough experience with ex racers/tb's to ever make this work for you.


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## unicornystar (10 March 2015)

Horses don't think that far ahead they live in the now,
Read more at http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/foru...t-am-I-going-to-do/page18#hOzGhBXXZWhbd8qO.99

Incorrect, that is dogs, you have been watching to much cesar milan!!!


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## Amymay (10 March 2015)

justabob said:



			Thoroughbreds are always sharper in the winter, that is a fact. This horse has been over analysed and just needs correct handling from a decent jockey and a suitable environment.
		
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I'm not sure I agree. My ex steeple chaser was a gent all year round.


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## Goldenstar (10 March 2015)

justabob said:



			Thoroughbreds are always sharper in the winter, that is a fact. This horse has been over analysed and just needs correct handling from a decent jockey and a suitable environment.
		
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No they are not , some horses are sharper in winter some in summer my Tb is entirely unaffected by season .


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## Michen (10 March 2015)

unicornystar said:



			Wasting my breath but as I care about horses......

Have you had an X ray on her spine? yes or no?

If not HOW do you know there is nothing physically wrong with her??

Mine with KS was competing regularly, sometimes broncing sometimes not........whether she is very well or not, if she is broncing ANYTIME at all, personally I would want to know I had covered everything and if not KS then at least you know you are dealing with some other issue or simple hi jinx.

Either way you clearly dont have enough experience with ex racers/tb's to ever make this work for you.
		
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Equally, you could x ray a horses spine and find KS and that might not even be the problem. A bone scan is the only way to show if the area is active and actually significant.


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## stilltrying (10 March 2015)

Yes and i'm sure a vet will happily take the money for a bonescan...which is why insurance premiums keep going through the roof!  

Once again i confess to not having read through every single page, but to me it sounds like rider is frightened of riding horse, handling horse and horse doens't get much turn out (or none, as said not read). That there is a problem in itself!  Yes the mare may have physical issues but she could also be bored out of her box and in need of a leader.


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## Amymay (10 March 2015)

stilltrying said:



			Yes and i'm sure a vet will happily take the money for a bonescan...which is why insurance premiums keep going through the roof!  

Once again i confess to not having read through every single page, but to me it sounds like rider is frightened of riding horse, handling horse and horse doens't get much turn out (or none, as said not read). That there is a problem in itself!  Yes the mare may have physical issues but she could also be bored out of her box and in need of a leader.
		
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Nail on the head.


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## Goldenstar (10 March 2015)

stilltrying said:



			Yes and i'm sure a vet will happily take the money for a bonescan...which is why insurance premiums keep going through the roof!  

Once again i confess to not having read through every single page, but to me it sounds like rider is frightened of riding horse, handling horse and horse doens't get much turn out (or none, as said not read). That there is a problem in itself!  Yes the mare may have physical issues but she could also be bored out of her box and in need of a leader.
		
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I agree the rider is frightened nothing wrong with that it's sensible to frightened of riding a horse that's to much for your skill level .
However the nub of the question is why is the horse to much and why are things worse than when the too quiet for old owner horse arrived with OP .
It could be and training or unsuitable routine or it could a veterinary issue or a combination of two or three of these things .  
If you wanted me to guess where I would started looking for a reason I would say the suspensorys in the hind hocks as these issues often present  with pain behind the saddle and issues striking off into canter .
Any one whose sprained a ligament them selves knows it often most painful the first time you do the thing that hurts that why horse often are difficult the first time they go into canter and then improve ,
However the management of the horse needs sorting and that's down to OP.


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## Fun Times (10 March 2015)

snopuma said:



			Nicely dodged you once again didn't address the question.
		
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Can you please reiterate the question which you do not believe to have been answered and which you state I have dodged. The post which you have quoted was my response to you saying that you didnt believe a walker was a suitable way to work the horse. There was no question in your post as I recall.


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## DollyPentreath (10 March 2015)

It's worth mentioning that some vets are more specialised than others. I'm not having a go at you Snopuma as I've been in a similar position with a small equine surgery before. They kept saying she's fine, crack on, nothing wrong (albeit I'm talking 12+ years ago). It wasn't until I insisted on a referral to an equine hospital that we realised the mare had SI damage. She was sound and eventing but would disunite in canter sometimes. I now know better (we've all got to learn) and would always take my horses to a specialist equine hospital rather than a small practise (although I'm sure some small practises are great!). Some vets are more thorough than others and unfortunately, it sounds like you need a second opinion.


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## Exploding Chestnuts (10 March 2015)

As far as I can make out the first opinion is that of the OP, she does not believe in veterinary workups, she does not believe there is anything wrong with the horse or with her management of the horse.
Most professionals,  friends, vets and so on would walk away when faced with the sort of responses we are getting on here.


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## snopuma (10 March 2015)

Bonkers2 said:



			As far as I can make out the first opinion is that of the OP, she does not believe in veterinary workups, she does not believe there is anything wrong with the horse or with her management of the horse.
Most professionals,  friends, vets and so on would walk away when faced with the sort of responses we are getting on here.
		
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What's the phrase - to assume makes an ass out of you and me,  At no point have I said I am against vet work ups, I have spoken to 3 vets at the same practice about her over the years they are a large practice and I trust them implicitly, they are unanimous in agreement that she does not display as having and issue she is simply and TB and feeling very well in herself.  You all assume that I am not wanting to go to the vets, Christ I almost have a parking space with my name on it.


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## Lanky Loll (10 March 2015)

OK so if we take the OPs assertion that there is nothing wrong with the horse physically, we are left with a horse in an unsuitable home, that's too much horse for the owner to handle, that needs regular exercise which the owner is too frightened to give... OP you really need to rehome this horse.


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## Scarlett (10 March 2015)

I'm sorry but any vet who would dismiss your horses behaviour like that needs to look at themselves IMO. 

I have 3 TB's, what your are describing is NOT normal behaviour, plain and simple. 

I'm not sure what answers you were hoping for OP, there have been a myriad of various suggestions however there is no magic fix. Your horse sounds desperately unhappy - a thick bed doesn't fulfil the basic needs of a horse, not does 'loving' it make you a great owner. 

Until you look at yourself, your management, your handling and training your situation isn't going to change no matter how much you may want it too.


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## TPO (10 March 2015)

snopuma said:



			You still didn't answer my question, What facilities do you think I need?
		
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You need a safe field/turnout that you can use as close to year round as possible and you need shelter be it a field shelter or stable.

You need to educate yourself re feeding, horse management and horse behaviours.. No one is born knowing it all; read, watch, ask and listen. Do not insult those that take the time and effort to reply with trying to help the horse their only motivation.

It's highly unlikely that you'll listen to another "simpleton freak" but for starters you could try reading some of the "100 ways to improve" books by Susan McBane. They are pennies on Amazon and there is a book for health, feeding, behaviour, partnership, riding and schooling. They will give you a start point as to indicating why your horse needs an improved way of being kept and what/how she should be fed, handled and trained.

There are lots of us with ex-racers and/or experience with "difficult" (and that does usually mean in some sort of discomfort and/or pain) but why waste time.

Your behaviour on this thread is ridiculous and I hope you have manners to apologise for the way in which you have conducted yourself. It's not hard to wonder why all the experienced and knowledgeable posters have left the forum when this is what goes on.


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## Exploding Chestnuts (10 March 2015)

So OP, now you are telling us that you have asked vets if she needs a workup and they said absolutely not. In spite of the fact that certain vet issues will cause these symptoms, and that there is no way of telling without certain investigations? 
No senior vet with equine experience would ever say such a thing. 
Please let us send out the WHW officer and he can asses the situation, liase between you and your vets, and find a solution to your mare's problem.


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## Roasted Chestnuts (10 March 2015)

Guys I think you are all wasting your time and I think we need to just leave this thread to die as the OP was just looking for sympathy and a hug regardless of what issues her horse may or may not have. I think we should all just leave the thread as after the second page it was clear the OP wasn't after and constructive help.

OP clearly you know better so why ask for advice. Good luck with your mare hopefully nothing nasty will become you or her.


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## Exploding Chestnuts (10 March 2015)

To some extent we are feeding the troll, but maybe someone will recognise the scenario, its not difficult,  and send out a welfare officer to help the mare, and talk to the OP.


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## Beausmate (10 March 2015)

Don't know why you asked the question, OP.  You obviously have all the answers and don't need good advice from 'simpletons and freaks' (quality reply that, nice  ).  

If you really cared about this horse, then you would listen to HER and actually investigate her problems, be they physical or behavioural, thoroughly.

I get the impression that you are trying to justify to yourself, not spending the time and money on this horse.   If you don't investigate the problem, then you will never find the solution and ultimately the horse you say you care about so much, will continue to suffer.


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## Fun Times (10 March 2015)

snopuma said:



			What's the phrase - to assume makes an ass out of you and me,  At no point have I said I am against vet work ups, I have spoken to 3 vets at the same practice about her over the years they are a large practice and I trust them implicitly, they are unanimous in agreement that she does not display as having and issue she is simply and TB and feeling very well in herself.  You all assume that I am not wanting to go to the vets, Christ I almost have a parking space with my name on it.
		
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So if you are so certain that there are no medical issues, why did you dismiss my idea of using a walker to bring her back into work? You said you had dismissed it because of the question marks regarding KS and SI issues and that you were worried about her joints. In fact you implied i had been stupid to suggest it given these potential issues. Yet here you are reiterating that there are no issues. So why the hideous response to my suggestion of using a walker given you had said you had no intention of getting om board her yourself? Crikey OP it must be terribly exhausting being as confused and contradictory as you. If you are this inconsistent with the mare no wonder you have troubles.


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## snopuma (10 March 2015)

Black Beastie said:



			Guys I think you are all wasting your time and I think we need to just leave this thread to die as the OP was just looking for sympathy and a hug regardless of what issues her horse may or may not have. I think we should all just leave the thread as after the second page it was clear the OP wasn't after and constructive help.

OP clearly you know better so why ask for advice. Good luck with your mare hopefully nothing nasty will become you or her.
		
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I certainly was not looking for a hug or sympathy I was looking for help with confidence and behavioural issues, but only the very few have helped the rest of you have, as usual, decided to attack.  Just for your information my understanding of a forum is for like minded people with a common interest to discuss issues, it is not a place where people get off on having a go at the OP, it is not reasonable to have a go at the OP for not taking your advice, it is not reasonable to have a narcissistic attitude to your offering there are other opinions.


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## Arizahn (10 March 2015)

Well if there's nothing wrong with her, and you won't sell her, then you'll just have to suck it up and crack on with things. Why not try driving her? Blinkers could help with the spooking, and no need to sit to a buck. Maybe a few months of decent hard work will be the making of her and you as a partnership. Failing that, retire her to grass permanently or shoot her. Those are your only remaining options at this point. I'd ditch that pro rider though; doesn't sound like much help beyond having a better seat than sense, imo.


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## snopuma (10 March 2015)

Fun Times said:



			So if you are so certain that there are no medical issues, why did you dismiss my idea of using a walker to bring her back into work? You said you had dismissed it because of the question marks regarding KS and SI issues and that you were worried about her joints. In fact you implied i had been stupid to suggest it given these potential issues. Yet here you are reiterating that there are no issues. So why the hideous response to my suggestion of using a walker given you had said you had no intention of getting om board her yourself? Crikey OP it must be terribly exhausting being as confused and contradictory as you. If you are this inconsistent with the mare no wonder you have troubles.
		
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Hello Twisty Fun Times, 

Firstly I don't agree with walkers full stop.  If I had to use one i.e. I couldn't walk I would only use an oval one as they are proven to be a little less hard going on the horse (any horse).  I don't have access to a walker.  I was astounded that your suggestion to help this situation was to put a horse on a walker that 80% of this thread have judged as being in terrible pain with KS and SI.

Oh and if it was a hideous response, what can I say I give as good as you get.


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## snopuma (10 March 2015)

Bonkers2 said:



			To some extent we are feeding the troll, but maybe someone will recognise the scenario, its not difficult,  and send out a welfare officer to help the mare, and talk to the OP.
		
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You have been incredibly rude throughout the thread, making a joke out of my situation, and now you call me a troll, pot and kettle.


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## Fun Times (10 March 2015)

snopuma said:



			Hello Twisty Fun Times, 

Firstly I don't agree with walkers full stop.  If I had to use one i.e. I couldn't walk I would only use an oval one as they are proven to be a little less hard going on the horse (any horse).  I don't have access to a walker.  I was astounded that your suggestion to help this situation was to put a horse on a walker that 80% of this thread have judged as being in terrible pain with KS and SI.

Oh and if it was a hideous response, what can I say I give as good as you get.
		
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I agree oval walkers are much better for them than the traditional ones and that they are quite rare. Just thought a walker would be safer than you trying to sit on her when you bring her back into work as you had said you didn't want to just get on and hang on for dear life (or similar). It helps take the edge off them for the first few days until they get some of the high jinx out of them. But its obviously not something you feel to be a solution. You could lunge her which you have said before that you do but I think that is a circular motion too so clearly not an option for the same reason.


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## Exploding Chestnuts (10 March 2015)

snopuma said:



			You have been incredibly rude throughout the thread, making a joke out of my situation, and now you call me a troll, pot and kettle.
		
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I have not been incredibly rude throughout, I have offered suggestions, as other have, pretty much all along the same lines.

here is my first post, after seeing you are struggling 



Bonkers2 said:



			I have not read many of the posts, except you have had her  or for 4 years and apart from the day you tried her and the day she came to you she has been difficult. This horse is not for you OP, do what you have to do or want to do, but don't struggle on like this.
		
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After that posting I read though countless threads, what is clear is that you don't want advice from people who are experienced with this type of problem, yet that is what you asked for.

For example someone suggested [among other things] that you could exercise her on a walker since you are not able to ride her, you derided the poster and went off on a tangent about oval walkers etc etc, all you need say, is thank you, but we don't have a walker on the yard.


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## AlwaysWorried (10 March 2015)

I am not getting into an argument, and will not be posting after this. I also will not be mentioning the 'v' or 'e' words.

However, regarding difficulty turning out: I acknowledge that the mare gets excited and starts fence running etc. However my previous mare initially did something similar when she was being turned out over the winter: out for the day and in at night. After leaving her to it - with other horses on the other side of the fence, to avoid hurting them but keep them close enough to see and touch - she did calm down. Initially it took a couple of hours, but after a few weeks she would just go for a single buck and kick up the field before settling down for a good munch.

Plenty of hay in multiple piles in the field before she got there, and turning other horses out first, helped. Also, not good with back shoes on as we did have one self-kick incident.

This may not help, and only the OP knows if this would be feasible and appropriate here. But it settled my girl's head like nothing else.


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## ljohnsonsj (10 March 2015)

If she has no health issues, and you aren't willing to sell/give her to someone who will fix her, then you need to man up with her and stop asking for advice you won't take anyway or put her in a field and let her live her days  being a horse


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## snopuma (10 March 2015)

Bonkers2 said:



			I have not been incredibly rude throughout, I have offered suggestions, as other have, pretty much all along the same lines.

here is my first post, after seeing you are struggling 



After that posting I read though countless threads, what is clear is that you don't want advice from people who are experienced with this type of problem, yet that is what you asked for.

For example someone suggested [among other things] that you could exercise her on a walker since you are not able to ride her, you derided the poster and went off on a tangent about oval walkers etc etc, all you need say, is thank you, but we don't have a walker on the yard.
		
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Your first post is awful and the rest have been progressively worse, I have read everything on the thread but I do have freedom of choice and I do know my mare, so I don't remember the H&H forum sign up with an addendum stating that OP's must adhere to all advice given by total strangers lest there computer should blow up! A lot of what has been said has already been tried so if I dismiss that on here its because it doesn't work or I don't agree with it or its not the right time to try that, if that's alright with you.  

Not that you will be interested but I had a lovely morning with my mare, lunged her over poles, grazed her in hand in the brilliant sunshine and washed her tail, we both had a nice time.  If this thread has shown me anything I'd better get on with her 'cos half of you would shoot her.


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## Exploding Chestnuts (10 March 2015)

snopuma said:



			Your first post is awful and the rest have been progressively worse, I have read everything on the thread but I do have freedom of choice and I do know my mare, so I don't remember the H&H forum sign up with an addendum stating that OP's must adhere to all advice given by total strangers lest there computer should blow up! A lot of what has been said has already been tried so if I dismiss that on here its because it doesn't work or I don't agree with it or its not the right time to try that, if that's alright with you.  

Not that you will be interested but I had a lovely morning with my mare, lunged her over poles, grazed her in hand in the brilliant sunshine and washed her tail, we both had a nice time.  If this thread has shown me anything I'd better get on with her 'cos half of you would shoot her.
		
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[/QUOTE]I have not read many of the posts, except you have had her or for 4 years and apart from the day you tried her and the day she came to you she has been difficult. This horse is not for you OP, do what you have to do or want to do, but don't struggle on like this.
Read more at http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/foru...t-am-I-going-to-do/page41#ksucM07RIOLL8XBA.99 [/QUOTE]

Where is it that I suggested you shoot her? Exactly what is awful about telling you that  this horse is not for you? You have had her four years pretty much, you bought her to ride but you can't ride her.


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## Fun Times (10 March 2015)

snopuma said:



			Your first post is awful and the rest have been progressively worse, I have read everything on the thread but I do have freedom of choice and I do know my mare, so I don't remember the H&H forum sign up with an addendum stating that OP's must adhere to all advice given by total strangers lest there computer should blow up! A lot of what has been said has already been tried so if I dismiss that on here its because it doesn't work or I don't agree with it or its not the right time to try that, if that's alright with you.  

Not that you will be interested but I had a lovely morning with my mare, lunged her over poles, grazed her in hand in the brilliant sunshine and washed her tail, we both had a nice time.  If this thread has shown me anything I'd better get on with her 'cos half of you would shoot her.
		
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Glad you had a good day with her. Out of interest why do you perceive lunging to be better for her than using a walker? I wouldn't normlly ask but you did say you were "astounded" at my suggestion of using a walker.


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## snopuma (10 March 2015)

AlwaysWorried said:



			I am not getting into an argument, and will not be posting after this. I also will not be mentioning the 'v' or 'e' words.

However, regarding difficulty turning out: I acknowledge that the mare gets excited and starts fence running etc. However my previous mare initially did something similar when she was being turned out over the winter: out for the day and in at night. After leaving her to it - with other horses on the other side of the fence, to avoid hurting them but keep them close enough to see and touch - she did calm down. Initially it took a couple of hours, but after a few weeks she would just go for a single buck and kick up the field before settling down for a good munch.

Plenty of hay in multiple piles in the field before she got there, and turning other horses out first, helped. Also, not good with back shoes on as we did have one self-kick incident.

This may not help, and only the OP knows if this would be feasible and appropriate here. But it settled my girl's head like nothing else.
		
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I have no idea what your first sentence means.

My mare is great during spring summer and autumn with turnout, happy to be out and on the hottest days I have to walk across the field to get her in which makes me smile to myself, but during the winter she only goes out every other day (yard rules) she always goes out in company with my boy but as the weather becomes colder/wetter/windier she has to be dragged to that field and she drags you back an hour later, quite a few people on the yard have a similar field hating horse during these months as well, all mares, my horses have hay in the field in a few piles and neither of them are shod, we are on clay so you can imagine the depth and suction the area by the gate gets like she is very lucky not to have pulled a tendon, he poor boy has hurt himself.


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## snopuma (10 March 2015)

Fun Times said:



			Glad you had a good day with her. Out of interest why do you perceive lunging to be better for her than using a walker? I wouldn't normlly ask but you did say you were "astounded" at my suggestion of using a walker.
		
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When I lunge any horse I don't stand religiously in the middle I work her on small circles, large circles and lozenge shapes and ovals and all different sizes, is that okay with you, I am not a fan of grinding a horse into the ground on a 15m circle I prefer to mimic a ridden session it bores me and her less and is better for any horse not to lunge but if you have to do it you may as well make it better for them, I have always enjoyed running down the centre line for a bit of lengthened strides.

BTW what time did you want your saucer of milk?


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## snopuma (10 March 2015)

I have not read many of the posts, except you have had her or for 4 years and apart from the day you tried her and the day she came to you she has been difficult. This horse is not for you OP, do what you have to do or want to do, but don't struggle on like this.
Read more at http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/foru...t-am-I-going-to-do/page41#ksucM07RIOLL8XBA.99 [/QUOTE]

Where is it that I suggested you shoot her? Exactly what is awful about telling you that  this horse is not for you? You have had her four years pretty much, you bought her to ride but you can't ride her.[/QUOTE]

What facilities do I need?


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## Swirlymurphy (10 March 2015)

What does your YO say?  Has she been able to give you any help or suggestions?


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## Kallibear (10 March 2015)

OP: if you treat the poor horse with same unbelievable attitude you've shown here then frankly I'm not surprised you have issues with her! Overly sensitive,  desperate to see a slight, short tempered,  arrogant,  stroppy, childish, rude,  intolerant, dismissive, unwilling to compromise or change your thinking.  I'm pretty sure I'm only saying what pretty much everyone else is thinking when I say : Thank god you're not my horse's owner.  Poor mare.


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## Exploding Chestnuts (10 March 2015)

NOTE: We used a 12 horse walker for our racehorses , [we had about 100-160 horses], the radius of a 12 horse walker may be greater than the  radius of 6 horse oval walker. It is the radius ie the degree of bend of the horse, not the fact that it is oval or circular.  Not sure exactly, but yes, generally a circular 6 or 8 horse walker probably has a larger radius than the average lunge rein.
We used the walker to warm up horses and give them a stretch in the afternoon. Also good for fittening and handling youngsters, most prep yards use walkers to bring up youngsters for the sales. They would not do this if it caused unsoundness. 
Some of our horses would not have been suitable for the average rider after racing, The ones I rode probably would have been OK, and I rode about 25 to 35% of them. I trained two T.Bs myself, they were turned out all winter, when in training they had an hour and a half on the heath every day, and twenty minutes grazing in hand. They had a few hours in a paddock when it was nice weather.


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## snopuma (10 March 2015)

Kallibear said:



			OP: if you treat the poor horse with same unbelievable attitude you've shown here then frankly I'm not surprised you have issues with her! Overly sensitive,  desperate to see a slight, short tempered,  arrogant,  stroppy, childish, rude,  intolerant, dismissive, unwilling to compromise or change your thinking.  I'm pretty sure I'm only saying what pretty much everyone else is thinking when I say : Thank god you're not my horse's owner.  Poor mare.
		
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You sentence makes no sense, and clearly you haven't read through the abuse I have had on here.


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## snopuma (10 March 2015)

Bonkers2 said:



			NOTE: We used a 12 horse walker for our racehorses , [we had about 100-160 horses], the radius of a 12 horse walker may be greater than the  radius of 6 horse oval walker. It is the radius ie the degree of bend of the horse, not the fact that it is oval or circular.  Not sure exactly, but yes, generally a circular 6 or 8 horse walker probably has a larger radius than the average lunge rein.
We used the walker to warm up horses and give them a stretch in the afternoon. Also good for fittening and handling youngsters, most prep yards use walkers to bring up youngsters for the sales. They would not do this if it caused unsoundness. 
Some of our horses would not have been suitable for the average rider after racing, The ones I rode probably would have been OK, and I rode about 25 to 35% of them. I trained two T.Bs myself, they were turned out all winter, when in training they had an hour and a half on the heath every day, and twenty minutes grazing in hand. They had a few hours in a paddock when it was nice weather.
		
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I don't doubt that a 12 horse walker would be more comfortable for a horse, but most yard if they have them have a 3 or 4 horse size, I have never heard of a 12 sized one before let alone seen them, but as I said before I don't drill my horse on a 15m circle when I lunge her and she gets to walk trot and canter that's got to be better, hasn't it?  Can't believe that I am getting slammed for not liking walkers now.  Couldn't think of anything more soul destroying than, here love, go in this walking cage because you can't go out in the field.


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## Hackie (10 March 2015)

Having had a problem OTT, quite uneducated when I got him, that bucked, I turned him around and he became quite the nice show horse.  FWIW, I was having lessons with my instructor one day, and he was having a barney and she turned to me and said that I really needed to think about whether I wanted to keep him, as I ride for enjoyment.  I would not have persevered through years of bad behaviour and hospital visits, I can tell you, but I decided that yes I wanted to try.  I don't give up easily.

So what I did was surround myself with the best professionals I could, and I listened to them.  

I had the horse worked up for physical issues.  There were none, but that needed to be eliminated first.  Quite frankly, you've been told to do that (and look, I'm not a massive believer in that pain always drives this behaviour, thoroughbreds are just hot sometimes) - but I wouldn't trust your vets if they are telling you there is no need to do so.  But its up to you if you want to keep taking that risk.

Then I took the horse to the best breaker in my area - he wasn't available to take the horse on but he was able to ride him for me, push his buttons and determined that he wasn't 'dirty' and wouldn't set out to hurt me.  And then I had lessons, every week, it was all Monty Roberts based which I hadn't done before but is the way this breaker rides, and it involved doing 'homework' each week then coming back for my lessons.  The really bad behaviour stopped, although the kept up the pig rooting and humping for quite a while after, but I kept at it.  You need to find a good trainer, that works - there is no way I'd keep sending that horse to that professional if it keeps up with the broncing and silly behaviour, they are clearly not getting through to it.  Find someone else, find the best breaker, or young/problem horse trainer you can, and do everything they tell you.

The other thing I did was not just learn to ride him right, but I learned to manage him.  Hot thoroughbreds need to be managed, they need proper work and feed, and routine.  What worked for me was daily turnout, 8am to 4pm, and a four day on, four day off work schedule.  Don't ride them everyday as they get too fit, and when they get too fit, the behaviour you are describing occurs more as they feel good about themselves (I'd personally avoid lunging a horse like this full stop for this very reason, all it does is make them fit, you are making a rod for your own back).  So, four days of good 40 mins of hard work, then a few days off, then start again - sometimes they are a bit hot on the first day, so if a calmer works, try that (and my horse was on long term calmers as well as they had a good effect on him).  With regards to the turnout, I'd suggest if the horse is really that bad, try sedating it as you put it out for a few days, get the horse in a routine of turning it out then back the sedation off, but you can't keep a hot thoroughbred stabled.  But try companions, try turning out at different times keep trying till you find something that works.

To be honest, locking your horse up and lunging but not riding it sounds like a recipe for disaster.  If the problem isn't physical as you insist, then its education and whilst I agree some ground work is necessary, the only way to educate them is to ride them.  If you can't ride it, then you have a problem and get someone else who can (either selling it or find a trainer).

I'm not the best rider in the world, quite the opposite really, I'm nervy and whilst I'm okay I'm not technically brilliant, but the one asset I do have is that I find the right people to ask the right questions of, and I listen, and as a result I've made good progress with every horse I've had.


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## Exploding Chestnuts (10 March 2015)

You are not being slammed for not liking walkers, it was you who slammed someone who suggested a walker. I am just explaining about walkers, so that people do not think that they are the work of the devil,  they are not.


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## Fun Times (10 March 2015)

snopuma said:



			You sentence makes no sense, and clearly you haven't read through the abuse I have had on here.
		
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There is a lot on this thread that makes no sense but Kallibear's post is not something which you could tar with that brush.


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## Goldenstar (10 March 2015)

Walkers are useful when a horse is being denied turnout and proper ridden exercise .


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## {97702} (10 March 2015)

Its funny (as in amusing) to see what the OP chooses to respond to and what she ignores - I stand by my assessment of the situation 2 or 3 pages back, which many others have echoed.  What is that old saying about 'there's nowt so deaf as those who do not want to hear'?

You are all feeding the troll (who appears to have not much else to do than reply on here) and she is loving it..... that poor mare....


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## alex_mac30 (10 March 2015)

If you are sure its behavioural then I would get a different instructor. No point having one who can ride the horse but can&#8217;t help you too. Look for someone who specialise in rider confidence. Have lessons on another horse and really assess is your riding will ever be good enough to cope with this horse. Not everyone will get on with every horse, maybe it&#8217;s time to say you have tried everything and now it&#8217;s time to let someone else try. Then you can find a horse that actually able to do the activities you want to do. 

Please don&#8217;t dismiss some of the comments made on this thread, it doesn&#8217;t sound like the yard you are on is idea for your horse, a change in yard can make a massive difference to a horse. I didn&#8217;t realise how unhappy my horse was, no really outward sides other than almost impossible to ride (I had had him 8 years at the time) I moved him in the summer as I moved house and he is a different horse, much calmer and rideable (much reduced spooking he is always going to be sharp).
I also second the feed comments, I have a TBxconn he can&#8217;t have any sugar, he becomes completely stupid. It had taken me years to find something that works. I would never have believe how such a small amount of food can make such a massive difference. A hand full and I mean a hand full of pony nuts in his ball once a day made him incredibly spooky. The same when I switched from apple chaff to cherry chaff. These days I avoid all of that.

It might not be pain, but the symptoms sound like it, it could be a very stressed horse that can&#8217;t cope with life and that could be due to many things, food, environment, lack of mental stimulation.

Lastly I know my horse, I have had him 10 years this year and although not lame I know he isn&#8217;t right. I have started a thread about it, going the vet route is a nightmare I know but I don&#8217;t want to keep working him if I&#8217;m not 100% he isn&#8217;t in pain. 

At the end of the day its your horse and only you can decide if the horse is worth the time and money, but if you want to get a ridable horse then you should be willing to try anything and listen to your horse.


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## Kallibear (10 March 2015)

snopuma said:



			You sentence makes no sense, and clearly you haven't read through the abuse I have had on here.
		
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My paragraph you mean? It does make sense, you just don't like it.

I have indeed read the whole thing. It's sadly becoming of entertainment value 

I see no abuse AT ALL. All I've seen is people offering suggestions and experiences of their own (in a surprisingly polite and helpful manner, considering your downright rude replies) and you have a complete strop about it, stamping your foot and yelling 'Abuse! I hate you all! You're all wrong, I'm right. Shut up'. I'm only surprised you've not tried to pull the 'Bullying' card yet. 

I'm also beginning to wonder if you're reading a  entirely different thread from most of us, to be able to find all this 'abuse' you're accusingly others of.


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## Swirlymurphy (10 March 2015)

snopuma said:



			Couldn't think of anything more soul destroying than, here love, go in this walking cage because you can't go out in the field.
		
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The thing is that it's not about putting you in it.  It's about putting your horse in it.  I appreciate she doesn't like the field in the winter, but in that case, it is up to you to come up with alternative ways of letting her expend some of her latent energy.  

How much help can your YO give you?  We are only working on what information you tell us, whereas they are on the ground and presumably experienced.  What about the pro you have used?  Any pro worth their salt would not laugh at you for not wanting to ride the rears and bucks, but whatever they might think privately, they should at the very least be able to come up with some constructive advice.

If you find a decent vet, they can also give advice based on what they are seeing on the ground.  I am not going to mention the loss of performance work-up.  But at the least, if you have one that you trust, you could do worse than asking for their help in terms of the management.

In the 3 years and 9 months you have had her, has there ever been a period of a) consistent work and b) of when she felt onside and working well and you enjoyed her?  I'm not trying to be provocative, I'm just trying to establish if there has been a period when things were going well, what were you doing with her, how often, what time of year etc.  It then might be possible to get back to that place.


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## snopuma (10 March 2015)

Swirlymurphy said:



			The thing is that it's not about putting you in it.  It's about putting your horse in it.  I appreciate she doesn't like the field in the winter, but in that case, it is up to you to come up with alternative ways of letting her expend some of her latent energy.  

How much help can your YO give you?  We are only working on what information you tell us, whereas they are on the ground and presumably experienced.  What about the pro you have used?  Any pro worth their salt would not laugh at you for not wanting to ride the rears and bucks, but whatever they might think privately, they should at the very least be able to come up with some constructive advice.

If you find a decent vet, they can also give advice based on what they are seeing on the ground.  I am not going to mention the loss of performance work-up.  But at the least, if you have one that you trust, you could do worse than asking for their help in terms of the management.

In the 3 years and 9 months you have had her, has there ever been a period of a) consistent work and b) of when she felt onside and working well and you enjoyed her?  I'm not trying to be provocative, I'm just trying to establish if there has been a period when things were going well, what were you doing with her, how often, what time of year etc.  It then might be possible to get back to that place.
		
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Okay since she's been with me in June 2011 she worked great the first day back, bolted and bronced the second day, she had been out all day but there had been a summer storm in the afternoon and she came in crazy, I didn't think she'd hold that fear having been in for an hour before I rode, my yard owner wanted to see her ridden (she is a very good friend) she got me to canter again on my terms after the bolting and that was okay on a 20m circle but she was very wound up, I contacted the previous owner to ask if she had ever behaved like this she said no and volunteered to come over and ride her, she made a few appointments and cancelled last minute every time, then she called me out of the blue and said she'd have her back as she had another buyer who wanted a black horse for showing, but I had done her vacs, teeth, saddle and re-registered by then and to be fair it was never on the cards.  So we never spoke again.  For that summer and autumn I struggled on riding her maybe 3 times a week and then I got a trainer to come and ride her to see what he thought, he thought she was fine and just needed to learn to balance and that the previous owner had sold her without her really being established.  So from that point I had a lesson every week - he rode first and I rode for the second half - she improved and our only set backs were in the winter when we had a foot of snow for a month and nothing got ridden, but onwards and upwards, I took her to a clinic where the trainer rode her and she was great, even coping with very spooky jumps without battling an eyelid.  Then in June 2013 I took her to a local dressage show just intro she was very excited but held it together and got over it in the warm up, then she did a beautiful test and won with  76% smiles all round! Two weeks later we took her again, trainer did the prelim and I did the Intro, I won he came third, she did bronc with him in the warm-up and friends that came to watch commented that maybe something was wrong with her back.  I got the vet out and you know the response so I gave her a month off and had the physio out and started again, physio said it must be a balance thing and advised that canter work should be half seat and to let her run smoothly into canter perhaps with a pole so she's not focused on the aid for canter from the rider, so that autumn  trainer cantered her like this and I cantered too, slight shade of green but I did it, then we started to work on lateral in trot and that really helped so it was all looking good until ducks by the school spooked her and she set sail broncing and put me on the floor that was Jan 2014, during my recovery the trainer rode her and a friend lunged her and she had limited turnout.  I started ride her again in May 2013 and we had a great summer, we didn't go to any shows, I was in too much pain, trotting felt like my leg was dislocating but I persevered, I had a bit more confidence with a HIT-AIR jacket that I now ride in all the time, I got a neck strap, and because it was my last thought to grab anything when I got launched an RS-Tor.  So I rode and hacked until October when she got an abcess.  She was out of action for 6 weeks while that was brewing and then I rode her a couple of times and then it was winter and you know the rest.


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## snopuma (10 March 2015)

Kallibear said:



			My paragraph you mean? It does make sense, you just don't like it.

I have indeed read the whole thing. It's sadly becoming of entertainment value 

I see no abuse AT ALL. All I've seen is people offering suggestions and experiences of their own (in a surprisingly polite and helpful manner, considering your downright rude replies) and you have a complete strop about it, stamping your foot and yelling 'Abuse! I hate you all! You're all wrong, I'm right. Shut up'. I'm only surprised you've not tried to pull the 'Bullying' card yet. 

I'm also beginning to wonder if you're reading a  entirely different thread from most of us, to be able to find all this 'abuse' you're accusingly others of.
		
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Don't misquote me I haven't said half of that.  You are doing what comes naturally on a forum ganging up and having a go. Sheep.


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## Roasted Chestnuts (10 March 2015)

snopuma said:



			Don't misquote me I haven't said half of that.  You are doing what comes naturally on a forum ganging up and having a go. Sheep.
		
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Oh yes and that is mature. When an overwhelming majority are giving you the same advice it's not following the crowd it just might be factual and correct advice!!! 

Honestly op you are deluding yourself and just bring downright childish. Accept that you might not be right in this or just stop digging.


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## Exploding Chestnuts (10 March 2015)

I wish I could find the ignore button


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## Swirlymurphy (10 March 2015)

So it would be fair to say it has been a bit hit and miss?  I don't mean that nastily, I just mean that there doesn't seem to be a long period of consistent work?

My suggestion - and again avoiding the work-up which I do happen to think would be a good thing to do if only to rule out any problems but I understand you don't want to go there - would be to get her in a consistent programme of work.  If I am honest, it doesn't sound like she fills you with confidence when you are riding her, and this won't help.  I know you don't want to sell her so you have two options - either you do the work or you get someone else to do the work.  You can either ship her to a pro/trainer to put the work in, or you can get them in to you to do the work.  But the work has to be consistent - 6/7 days a week of good, experienced, confidence-building (her confidence) work with goals in mind.  It's not going to be cheap but then neither is having a horse that you don't ride as much as you want because she scares you.  The one thing that I would say is that by investing in a good quality ridden programme, you stand a chance of getting the horse back that you love but that is a) only if there are no existing physical problems and b) only if you can sustain the work yourself once the period with the pro is complete.  

You don't have to do it on here and publicly, but privately you might want to consider whether you can really offer the right home for her in terms of yard facilities and experience.  It's not the worse thing in the world to sell a horse on because they're not right for you.

ETA You might well find that physically she cannot cope with that amount of work in which case you have an answer of sorts and you will need to go down the work-up route.  If her body can't cope with the workload that her mind needs, there is only really one option and I'm afraid that's PTS.


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## Michen (10 March 2015)

Swirlymurphy said:



			So it would be fair to say it has been a bit hit and miss?  I don't mean that nastily, I just mean that there doesn't seem to be a long period of consistent work?

My suggestion - and again avoiding the work-up which I do happen to think would be a good thing to do if only to rule out any problems but I understand you don't want to go there - would be to get her in a consistent programme of work.  If I am honest, it doesn't sound like she fills you with confidence when you are riding her, and this won't help.  I know you don't want to sell her so you have two options - either you do the work or you get someone else to do the work.  You can either ship her to a pro/trainer to put the work in, or you can get them in to you to do the work.  But the work has to be consistent - 6/7 days a week of good, experienced, confidence-building (her confidence) work with goals in mind.  It's not going to be cheap but then neither is having a horse that you don't ride as much as you want because she scares you.  The one thing that I would say is that by investing in a good quality ridden programme, you stand a chance of getting the horse back that you love but that is a) only if there are no existing physical problems and b) only if you can sustain the work yourself once the period with the pro is complete.  

You don't have to do it on here and publicly, but privately you might want to consider whether you can really offer the right home for her in terms of yard facilities and experience.  It's not the worse thing in the world to sell a horse on because they're not right for you.

ETA You might well find that physically she cannot cope with that amount of work in which case you have an answer of sorts and you will need to go down the work-up route.  If her body can't cope with the workload that her mind needs, there is only really one option and I'm afraid that's PTS.
		
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OP I think this is the most sensible advice on the entire thread


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## snopuma (10 March 2015)

Swirlymurphy said:



			So it would be fair to say it has been a bit hit and miss?  I don't mean that nastily, I just mean that there doesn't seem to be a long period of consistent work?

My suggestion - and again avoiding the work-up which I do happen to think would be a good thing to do if only to rule out any problems but I understand you don't want to go there - would be to get her in a consistent programme of work.  If I am honest, it doesn't sound like she fills you with confidence when you are riding her, and this won't help.  I know you don't want to sell her so you have two options - either you do the work or you get someone else to do the work.  You can either ship her to a pro/trainer to put the work in, or you can get them in to you to do the work.  But the work has to be consistent - 6/7 days a week of good, experienced, confidence-building (her confidence) work with goals in mind.  It's not going to be cheap but then neither is having a horse that you don't ride as much as you want because she scares you.  The one thing that I would say is that by investing in a good quality ridden programme, you stand a chance of getting the horse back that you love but that is a) only if there are no existing physical problems and b) only if you can sustain the work yourself once the period with the pro is complete.  

You don't have to do it on here and publicly, but privately you might want to consider whether you can really offer the right home for her in terms of yard facilities and experience.  It's not the worse thing in the world to sell a horse on because they're not right for you.

ETA You might well find that physically she cannot cope with that amount of work in which case you have an answer of sorts and you will need to go down the work-up route.  If her body can't cope with the workload that her mind needs, there is only really one option and I'm afraid that's PTS.
		
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What you have said is fair and realistic the only thing that I won't be doing is putting her down.


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## snopuma (10 March 2015)

Lévrier;12843495 said:
			
		


			Its funny (as in amusing) to see what the OP chooses to respond to and what she ignores - I stand by my assessment of the situation 2 or 3 pages back, which many others have echoed.  What is that old saying about 'there's nowt so deaf as those who do not want to hear'?

You are all feeding the troll (who appears to have not much else to do than reply on here) and she is loving it..... that poor mare....
		
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Your off hand comments are not warranted or wanted. When you have something useful to say....


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## snopuma (10 March 2015)

alex_mac30 said:



			If you are sure its behavioural then I would get a different instructor. No point having one who can ride the horse but cant help you too. Look for someone who specialise in rider confidence. Have lessons on another horse and really assess is your riding will ever be good enough to cope with this horse. Not everyone will get on with every horse, maybe its time to say you have tried everything and now its time to let someone else try. Then you can find a horse that actually able to do the activities you want to do. 

Please dont dismiss some of the comments made on this thread, it doesnt sound like the yard you are on is idea for your horse, a change in yard can make a massive difference to a horse. I didnt realise how unhappy my horse was, no really outward sides other than almost impossible to ride (I had had him 8 years at the time) I moved him in the summer as I moved house and he is a different horse, much calmer and rideable (much reduced spooking he is always going to be sharp).
I also second the feed comments, I have a TBxconn he cant have any sugar, he becomes completely stupid. It had taken me years to find something that works. I would never have believe how such a small amount of food can make such a massive difference. A hand full and I mean a hand full of pony nuts in his ball once a day made him incredibly spooky. The same when I switched from apple chaff to cherry chaff. These days I avoid all of that.

It might not be pain, but the symptoms sound like it, it could be a very stressed horse that cant cope with life and that could be due to many things, food, environment, lack of mental stimulation.

Lastly I know my horse, I have had him 10 years this year and although not lame I know he isnt right. I have started a thread about it, going the vet route is a nightmare I know but I dont want to keep working him if Im not 100% he isnt in pain. 

At the end of the day its your horse and only you can decide if the horse is worth the time and money, but if you want to get a ridable horse then you should be willing to try anything and listen to your horse.
		
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Thank you for this what you have said is how I feel about the situation, I do want the very best for her.


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## snopuma (10 March 2015)

Bonkers2 said:



			I wish I could find the ignore button
		
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please do


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## Swirlymurphy (10 March 2015)

Okay, that's fine and understandable.  So you still need to go through the process of establishing how she is when she is in a consistent, fair work programme.  By fair, I mean one that is tactful and firm, and understanding of her background and the inconsistencies in her retraining to date.  Not all pros or trainers are going to be capable of this.  If you don't have anyone in mind, I would very very strongly suggest you contact the ROR helpline here 01780 740773.  This is run by Fred and Rowena Cook and they are fantastically helpful, immensely experienced and very kind people.  Give them a call, explain the situation, and explore the options with them.  

I don't know whereabouts you are in the country nor whether finances permit, but presuming that it would be possible, I would urge you to consider sending your mare to them.  She will get the best care possible during the next phase of her life.  (I would add that I am not linked to them in anyway, I have just had great advice from them with my own exracer)

If the situation does not permit you sending her to them, ask them if they can recommend anyone locally to you who might be able to help.  There is usually a fairly well known ROR contact list and it would definitely be advisable to go down the route of talking to them, rather than anyone whose experience you cannot vouch for.

While she is away, assuming she goes away because I think this is the right thing for her, stay in touch with them, visit regularly, pick their brains, watch, learn, and then consider very carefully whether or not you will be able to offer the same opportunities at your current yard, in terms of turnout, distance to the field, field companion etc etc.  Talk to your YO and get them onside with trying to solve the problems.  If it transpires that the current setup doesn't suit her, you have to be prepared to move to somewhere that does suit her.

Throughout all of this - be very open to the possibility that the mare may well require veterinary attention, including work-ups and scans etc.  I don't know if she is insured and it is none of my business, but have in your mind how you will handle it if it happens.  What can you afford to do, what can't you afford to do.  If a vet does need to get involved, have the discussion re finances and facilities with them.  What if there is something like KS, can you rehab, long rein etc.   On the other hand, it may be something more straightforward such as getting the physio out more regularly - fortnightly, weekly, monthly.  There may be equipment changes that need to be made - perhaps the saddle fit isn't great, or it might suit her now but not in 6 months time as she changes shape; consider magnetic rugs or other items that might be needed. 

At all times, be open to what the pro/trainer/ROR people tell you - listen, question, engage with them, even if it isn't what you want to hear.  They will (if you have chosen carefully) be looking out for your horse and her welfare.  And at the end of the day, the people on this forum are looking out for your horse's welfare as well - even if you can't see it yet, and frankly you don't ever have to see it if you don't want to, I'm willing to bet that 99% of the advice is coming from experienced people who do have a lot to offer - it just gets a bit lost in the ether.  

So find someone on the ground who can help you, stick with the programme, be flexible, listen to what the pro tells you, listen to what the mare tells you, and very best wishes.


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## Michen (10 March 2015)

wench said:



			You will often find a spooky horse is in pain. 

I suggest you look at posts in the tack room from minchen and her horse, and there is one knocking around about a bridle lame horse.
		
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Do you mean me?


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## {97702} (10 March 2015)

snopuma said:



			Your off hand comments are not warranted or wanted. When you have something useful to say....
		
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I have already said something useful - stop being so flaming selfish and find the poor mare a decent home with an owner who isn't terrified of her, will give her the time and parameters she wants and needs, and will also put her through a proper lameness work-up/vet assessment.  Of course to you that isn't useful because it isn't want you want to hear - it is, however, the truth.


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## Apercrumbie (10 March 2015)

Swirlymurphy said:



			So it would be fair to say it has been a bit hit and miss?  I don't mean that nastily, I just mean that there doesn't seem to be a long period of consistent work?

My suggestion - and again avoiding the work-up which I do happen to think would be a good thing to do if only to rule out any problems but I understand you don't want to go there - would be to get her in a consistent programme of work.  If I am honest, it doesn't sound like she fills you with confidence when you are riding her, and this won't help.  I know you don't want to sell her so you have two options - either you do the work or you get someone else to do the work.  You can either ship her to a pro/trainer to put the work in, or you can get them in to you to do the work.  But the work has to be consistent - 6/7 days a week of good, experienced, confidence-building (her confidence) work with goals in mind.  It's not going to be cheap but then neither is having a horse that you don't ride as much as you want because she scares you.  The one thing that I would say is that by investing in a good quality ridden programme, you stand a chance of getting the horse back that you love but that is a) only if there are no existing physical problems and b) only if you can sustain the work yourself once the period with the pro is complete.  

You don't have to do it on here and publicly, but privately you might want to consider whether you can really offer the right home for her in terms of yard facilities and experience.  It's not the worse thing in the world to sell a horse on because they're not right for you.

ETA You might well find that physically she cannot cope with that amount of work in which case you have an answer of sorts and you will need to go down the work-up route.  If her body can't cope with the workload that her mind needs, there is only really one option and I'm afraid that's PTS.
		
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What many of us were saying pages and pages ago.  Good post.


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## Exploding Chestnuts (10 March 2015)

Sarah Fischer, Michael Peace, Samsara Equitation, Jason Webb, Richard Maxwell and others all do rehabilitation, they might be better than an ordinary trainer, the main advantage of using a local trainer is that you can go along and have some instruction once the mare is going forward.


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## wench (10 March 2015)

Michen said:



			Do you mean me? 

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Yes sorry for the slight spelling error!


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## conniegirl (11 March 2015)

Get the mare to a vet for a bone scan now!
She sounds exactly the same as my little warmblood lad, we battled for 3 years to get him under saddle, but the trot to canter transition usually resulted in explosive unsittable bronking and bolting (but not always) I had all sorts of trainers telling me to shoot him as he was dangerous, I had one Very special trainer who took him on to work with him, whilst with her he had workups by some very good vets, completely sound in all paces, on all surfaces and on all sizes on circle. Even in flexion tests the vet could not make him lame, they xrayed every part of him the could, he was scoped, had his bloods done, had a full medical workup at vet hospital with nothing found, he was manipulated and poked and prodded in every conceivable place, they found nothing. He won dressage tests with 79%+ in walk and trot. 

But something wasn't right. After he broke my mums neck and severly damaged my lower spine I got him bonescanned as a last effort. The scan picked up both a fractured skull and a fractured pelvis! The pelvis injury was causing him immense pain in the transition and hence his reaction. Vet said the horse should have been on 3 legs with that injury not winning at dressage!
6 months box rest ( the first 3 weeks crosstied on very large doses of bute) then 6 months in the field sorted the fracture out then we started from scratch and rebroke him entirely and we never looked back!
I had very much lost all my confidence before I found that trainer and was no good for him at the time. Once we found the root of the problem, fixed it and then the trainer worked him through tge remembered pain he was amazing. We competed at chaps champs and got a rosette in every class, we hacked out and I enjoyed riding again!

Please don't dismiss that your horse may be in pain, some are very very good at hiding it but it is those brave little souls that explode when it all gets too much for them to cope with any longer


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## Michen (11 March 2015)

wench said:



			Yes sorry for the slight spelling error!
		
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Haha no worries! 

Not sure my posts will help as his issues are very much foot related and the kissing spines didn't "seem" to be causing any problems when he was under saddle, though it's obviously something that will have to be monitored.

OP- It might be worth scoping for ulcers though. It's amazing the variety of symptoms ulcers can present themselves as and it doesn't necessarily have to be girthiness or grumpiness. The fact her behaviour is so varied may even be a really clear sign, depending on how full her tummy is/good the grass is etc as to how much acid is splashing around.


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## Michen (11 March 2015)

Lévrier;12843915 said:
			
		


			I have already said something useful - stop being so flaming selfish and find the poor mare a decent home with an owner who isn't terrified of her, will give her the time and parameters she wants and needs, and will also put her through a proper lameness work-up/vet assessment.  Of course to you that isn't useful because it isn't want you want to hear - it is, however, the truth.
		
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Thing is... unless this is a quality mare with potential- who is going to realistically take on that kind of horse? That needs a vet work up before they've even got it?


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## Exploding Chestnuts (11 March 2015)

Michen said:



			Thing is... unless this is a quality mare with potential- who is going to realistically take on that kind of horse? That needs a vet work up before they've even got it?
		
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If it is the one in the photo, it looks rather nice, and for all we know it might just be its current situation that is exacerbating its problems. Anyway I am sure OP won't sell or give it away, she has already made clear her views on these matters, and others.
I suspect she won't send the mare away for one reason or another, but lets hope she does see the light, for the sake of the horse.


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## Casey76 (11 March 2015)

After wading through pages and pages of discussion...

OP, in your summary of her work, it reads like your mare has spooked a couple of times, bucked a couple of times, you had a nasty accident, and your mare is bad mannered to handle?

Spooking and perhaps bucking may stem from pain, or they may stem from joi de vivre, or unbalancedness (is that even a word???).

1) spooking - My mare is more spooky with me than with my friend who rides because I'm more nervous and looking for things she may spook at. The more consistent work she gets, the less spooky she is as she is concentrating more/getting used to things = get a confident sticky rider to ride your mare consistently - every day - bore her into submission.

2) bucking - getting legs in a muddle/ unbalanced through the transition = pretty normal bucking. Heels up when on canter outside = can be considered normal for some horses = not worth bothering about if rider happy and gets on with it (and is noted if selling horse) - pronging (nose to feet)/ "get me off"  = not a happy horse (cue tack, back, teeth check).

3) bolting - was this a real bolt, or a wall of death round the arena? should be differentiated.

4) bad manners on ground - really, after 3+ years? Get some advice from a remedial trainer.

5) fence running - let her get on with it.  She is expending energy. She is effectively training you to bring her in. I agree some horses don't like wet weather, but being cooped up inside isn't good for her either.

If you don't want a full work up, you could try a bute trial, but they aren't 100% diagnostic, and is only an indication there is pain *somewhere*


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## abb123 (11 March 2015)

Blimey OP, you've had a bit of a bashing here. 

I'll be honest and say I think you have not responded in the best way to the comments. You have come across as very rude and not given the best impression of yourself. 

If you post on a forum you can't include all details and put across fully all the nuances of the problem so it can be frustrating to get responses that *seem* to miss the point and go off on a tangent.

You don't have to do every suggestion that is posted, but the posters have given you their time and attention and a short message along the lines of " Thanks for this. I'll have a think about how I can have a look at it" stops further comments/arguments and is at least polite.

For what it is worth, I think you have had some great advice and suggestions on this thread. I would advise leaving this thread for a while and reading it again in a few weeks or so. Hopefully you can take some of the suggestions on board and find a way to help your mare.


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## {97702} (11 March 2015)

Michen said:



			Thing is... unless this is a quality mare with potential- who is going to realistically take on that kind of horse? That needs a vet work up before they've even got it?
		
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I would   Maybe I'm a bit strange though   I am used to TBs and to be honest this behaviour doesn't sound that far removed from what my last little TB used to do on occasion....


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## sportsmansB (11 March 2015)

OP- in my last post (which was the one before you called almost everyone who had replied names) I suggested, as many others have, sending the mare away for a month or two's schooling to see what someone else thought
You have chosen to ignore this bit of advice and haven't even commented on it - is there any reason why? 

Many horses are spooky, you say you took your tumble from her when she spooked and then bronced. Even super spooky horses don't necessarily bronc after spooking, unless they are a) too fresh or b) it makes them sore. 
Please, please consider properly tiring your horse out daily- the tarpaulin stuff etc is lovely for trust and building relationships and all that jazz, but it won't take the fairies out of her head or make her respect you. See if she is the same when she is truly TIRED OUT


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## JillA (11 March 2015)

It's really disappointing to see the antipathy to some of the suggestions people have made. There is usually no simple solution, but a long fascinating road of trial and error. What works for one horse won't for yours but you won't know that until you have tried it. The thing is, if you do embark on that long road, you will become a far better horseperson for it - you will learn to see things from your horse's viewpoint, you will gain enormously from the physiological and nutritional knowledge you will learn along the way, and you might very well end up with a horse who owes you its life - and knows it.
My horse was home bred, so never badly treated and scared but the most difficult horse I have ever backed. Even months and years afterwards he put me on the floor numerous times, attacked a dog in his paddock and was generally a right delinquent. I had broken and ridden away numerous others but he was a one off. I took him to clinics, read threads on forums (?fora?) and networked until I found some answers. There were some dead ends (Parelli being one!!) and several useful ideas, including magnesium deficiency, a very sensitive metabolism, sore feet and stiff muscles - but I have learned so much. Some horses are a real challenge and sent to teach us - don't give up on them.

Oh, I forgot to say - my horse is now a pleasure to ride in the school and we have had  several classical dressage lessons.


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## kirstie (11 March 2015)

snopuma said:



			Okay since she's been with me in June 2011 she worked great the first day back, bolted and bronced the second day, she had been out all day but there had been a summer storm in the afternoon and she came in crazy, I didn't think she'd hold that fear having been in for an hour before I rode, my yard owner wanted to see her ridden (she is a very good friend) she got me to canter again on my terms after the bolting and that was okay on a 20m circle but she was very wound up, I contacted the previous owner to ask if she had ever behaved like this she said no and volunteered to come over and ride her, she made a few appointments and cancelled last minute every time, then she called me out of the blue and said she'd have her back as she had another buyer who wanted a black horse for showing, but I had done her vacs, teeth, saddle and re-registered by then and to be fair it was never on the cards.  So we never spoke again.  For that summer and autumn I struggled on riding her maybe 3 times a week and then I got a trainer to come and ride her to see what he thought, he thought she was fine and just needed to learn to balance and that the previous owner had sold her without her really being established.  So from that point I had a lesson every week - he rode first and I rode for the second half - she improved and our only set backs were in the winter when we had a foot of snow for a month and nothing got ridden, but onwards and upwards, I took her to a clinic where the trainer rode her and she was great, even coping with very spooky jumps without battling an eyelid.  Then in June 2013 I took her to a local dressage show just intro she was very excited but held it together and got over it in the warm up, then she did a beautiful test and won with  76% smiles all round! Two weeks later we took her again, trainer did the prelim and I did the Intro, I won he came third, she did bronc with him in the warm-up and friends that came to watch commented that maybe something was wrong with her back.  I got the vet out and you know the response so I gave her a month off and had the physio out and started again, physio said it must be a balance thing and advised that canter work should be half seat and to let her run smoothly into canter perhaps with a pole so she's not focused on the aid for canter from the rider, so that autumn  trainer cantered her like this and I cantered too, slight shade of green but I did it, then we started to work on lateral in trot and that really helped so it was all looking good until ducks by the school spooked her and she set sail broncing and put me on the floor that was Jan 2014, during my recovery the trainer rode her and a friend lunged her and she had limited turnout.  I started ride her again in May 2013 and we had a great summer, we didn't go to any shows, I was in too much pain, trotting felt like my leg was dislocating but I persevered, I had a bit more confidence with a HIT-AIR jacket that I now ride in all the time, I got a neck strap, and because it was my last thought to grab anything when I got launched an RS-Tor.  So I rode and hacked until October when she got an abcess.  She was out of action for 6 weeks while that was brewing and then I rode her a couple of times and then it was winter and you know the rest.
		
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I have read through the whole thread and this is probably the most useful info you have given re work done and timescales etc. I do agree if it were my horse I would most likely be sending the horse for a full work up but do understand why you do not want to do this.

From the post above it does seem that she has genuinely frightened you in that accident and is generally a handful of a horse at the best of times. It seems as though she is probably picking up on your nerves and reacting, which has turned your situation into a vicious circle.

I fully understand your reasoning for not turning out but this horse needs to expel her excess energy and I would, as others have said, give her at least 2 oppourtunities a day to work and or just kick her heels up and burn energy. I can't turn my horse out at the moment- I won't bore you with the reasons why. But she is being exercised at least twice a day, with at least one session of free schooling per day where she is actively encouraged to buck, bronc and let steam off in a safe place. She is either then ridden, lunged or free schooled again at the other end of the day. I cannot keep her in and safely ride her without letting her explode at least ocne a day. This keeps her sane, happy and safe. Do you have the facilites to be able to do that in the winter months? If not, it may be an idea to perhaps look for somewhere you can? Would you consider a yard move?

I think you also really need to look at your confidence levels and honestly ask yourself if you think you will get your confidence back with this mare. I think sometimes we get hung up because we really love a horse, even though they aren't perhaps the best match for us. At the end of the day, if it is important that you get some enjoyment out of it, maybe she is not the one for you. I really don't think you should think less of yourself if you decide that you do not want to perservere- I certainly wouldn't blame you. If you do decide that you do want to carry on, I think you need to get a really good trainer onboard who will ride, can get her going for you and then help you gradually get back on and then you start riding her regularly again.

If the behaviour continues I would definitely get a work up done.


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## snopuma (11 March 2015)

kirstie said:



			I have read through the whole thread and this is probably the most useful info you have given re work done and timescales etc. I do agree if it were my horse I would most likely be sending the horse for a full work up but do understand why you do not want to do this.

From the post above it does seem that she has genuinely frightened you in that accident and is generally a handful of a horse at the best of times. It seems as though she is probably picking up on your nerves and reacting, which has turned your situation into a vicious circle.

I fully understand your reasoning for not turning out but this horse needs to expel her excess energy and I would, as others have said, give her at least 2 oppourtunities a day to work and or just kick her heels up and burn energy. I can't turn my horse out at the moment- I won't bore you with the reasons why. But she is being exercised at least twice a day, with at least one session of free schooling per day where she is actively encouraged to buck, bronc and let steam off in a safe place. She is either then ridden, lunged or free schooled again at the other end of the day. I cannot keep her in and safely ride her without letting her explode at least ocne a day. This keeps her sane, happy and safe. Do you have the facilites to be able to do that in the winter months? If not, it may be an idea to perhaps look for somewhere you can? Would you consider a yard move?

I think you also really need to look at your confidence levels and honestly ask yourself if you think you will get your confidence back with this mare. I think sometimes we get hung up because we really love a horse, even though they aren't perhaps the best match for us. At the end of the day, if it is important that you get some enjoyment out of it, maybe she is not the one for you. I really don't think you should think less of yourself if you decide that you do not want to perservere- I certainly wouldn't blame you. If you do decide that you do want to carry on, I think you need to get a really good trainer onboard who will ride, can get her going for you and then help you gradually get back on and then you start riding her regularly again.

If the behaviour continues I would definitely get a work up done.
		
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I do understand that she needs to get out, that is why as you have said she comes out everyday to lunge/kick her heels up/graze in hand etc.. in the school, I had mentioned this before earlier in the thread and she's been in for 5 weeks without any field turnout.  And I do appreciate the advice.


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## snopuma (11 March 2015)

JillA said:



			It's really disappointing to see the antipathy to some of the suggestions people have made. There is usually no simple solution, but a long fascinating road of trial and error. What works for one horse won't for yours but you won't know that until you have tried it. The thing is, if you do embark on that long road, you will become a far better horseperson for it - you will learn to see things from your horse's viewpoint, you will gain enormously from the physiological and nutritional knowledge you will learn along the way, and you might very well end up with a horse who owes you its life - and knows it.
My horse was home bred, so never badly treated and scared but the most difficult horse I have ever backed. Even months and years afterwards he put me on the floor numerous times, attacked a dog in his paddock and was generally a right delinquent. I had broken and ridden away numerous others but he was a one off. I took him to clinics, read threads on forums (?fora?) and networked until I found some answers. There were some dead ends (Parelli being one!!) and several useful ideas, including magnesium deficiency, a very sensitive metabolism, sore feet and stiff muscles - but I have learned so much. Some horses are a real challenge and sent to teach us - don't give up on them.

Oh, I forgot to say - my horse is now a pleasure to ride in the school and we have had  several classical dressage lessons.
		
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Thank you for your comment, I do appreciate the road is long I have been on it with pitstops for a long time, but contrary to belief on here I do have an open mind, just that most of the suggestions I have already tried, I was hoping that there may have been something else that I hadn't researched and tried.


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## snopuma (11 March 2015)

Bonkers2 said:



			If it is the one in the photo, it looks rather nice, and for all we know it might just be its current situation that is exacerbating its problems. Anyway I am sure OP won't sell or give it away, she has already made clear her views on these matters, and others.
I suspect she won't send the mare away for one reason or another, but lets hope she does see the light, for the sake of the horse.
		
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very judgemental of you once again,


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## Pigeon (11 March 2015)

Firstly, -hugs-, I know it stings to hear all of this.

I didn't realise she was stabled 24/7, I have to say that does sound like a recipe for disaster. I would be tempted to turn her away in a big big field and herd until the weather gets nice, just leave her to it!! If it stays this mild and she's not clipped she won't even need rugging.

If there's some niggling soft tissue injury that might be enough to sort it out. And it can give you some time to plan everything through and get some perspective. (so much easier to do when we're not dealing with them every day!) 

You can then decide whether you want to go down the vet or trainer route. (if it was me I'd do the first and then the second)

The most important thing to do is not put yourself at risk. And get her outdoors, she has too much time to plot stood in a stable!


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## Lloyd45 (19 March 2015)

Hi Snopuma I'm sorry you're having all these problems with your horse.  It's heart breaking when you put so much time, money and love into them and they make things so difficult and dangerous.  I have the calmest horse but I have to say if he was in 24/7 he would be a complete basket case.  Can you not just put a good rug on her and turn her out 24/7?


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## sportsmansB (20 March 2015)

Funny I just checked back on this thread to see if the OP had replied yet as to why she hasn't / won't send the horse to an experienced person for a month or two to see if they can make any headway... and still no answer to that repeated question. 
The amount of horses I have seen who come for training to a good yard with an experienced rider and can be turned around- and their owners can come and have lessons on them once they are on the right path, and rebuild lost confidence under supervision and with support... I just don't know why you are so reluctant to even entertain this idea OP?


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## lastchancer (21 March 2015)

I very much suspect there's nothing wrong with mare horse except that she's well bred, hasn't been out in 5 weeks and her owner is a fool. 
A bit of lunging and in hand work over tarp is not going to settle her mind like full time turn out. Would her previous owner buy her back? Even after several years I'd have any of mine back if I found them in a predicament like you've put this poor horse in.


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## Ponycarrots (21 March 2015)

Agreed, I had a perfect ex racer for hacking, he was nearly bombproof, so trusting and loved to be out. 
On the other hand I had a cob who was a nightmare to hack out. Stubborn, liked to rear, nap, buck and spin...I hate it when people stereotype breeds.


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## Ponycarrots (21 March 2015)

Gosh there's some nastiness going on in this thread 

Couldn't you get a little Shetland or rescue pony/donkey or loan pony to keep her company while your other horse is on box rest? Then she could be outside.
I know you say she freaks out in the field in winter/autumn. Why not turn her out in the school with no rug on so she doesn't get sweaty? Maybe she needs to run about! If she's not used to being turned out and being a diva about it maybe you should just let her run round til she gets tired, then she might learn she's not gonna come in no matter what and may eventually settle.
Sorry if you've already tried this! 
You say you lubge her a lot, does she buck in canter on the lunge too? If she does then it may just be a learned thing and she needs to stop it, if she bucks in canter make her canter round til it stops.
I'd definitely get a different instructor/trainer who will work with you a and make you ride the horse and teach you to solve her problems. There's no point in having a horse your instructor can ride but you can't. And if he can't teach you how to stop her naughtiness you need a different instructor.
I'd completely start afresh; new instructor, new plan, new management. 
Some horses are just naturally a bit cheeky and when allowed to get away with it it becomes so ingrained into them it seems impossible to work it out. 
In her previous home she may have got away with this behaviour every day for a long time.


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## SpringArising (21 March 2015)

I have read about five pages and I'm going to assume she has no medical issues. 

First of all, the horse isn't getting any real turnout or exercise. I guarantee you that is the issue. As soon as you said that she isn't getting any turnout I didn't bother reading any further. 

It sounds like there are no real rules in place, the horse walks all over you and you are terrified. 

She's scared because you are. That's the crux of the matter. 

I bought a gelding who had just turned five. I had him shipped to me without viewing him and as soon as he walked off the lorry he was a little ******. 

He bit, bronced, reared, took off, kicked out at horses and other people, spun around me as I was leading him and charged at me. Two years later he was a little mannerly saint doing PC with a thirteen-year-old girl. 

Your horse just really, really needs someone who is kind but confident. She doesn't need shouting at or punching, she just needs someone who isn't phased by quirkyness. I promise you she would be a different horse with the right handling!

Where are you based?


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## snopuma (21 March 2015)

Lloyd45 said:



			Hi Snopuma I'm sorry you're having all these problems with your horse.  It's heart breaking when you put so much time, money and love into them and they make things so difficult and dangerous.  I have the calmest horse but I have to say if he was in 24/7 he would be a complete basket case.  Can you not just put a good rug on her and turn her out 24/7?
		
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I can't turn her out 24/7 even in the summer at my yard if they are out overnight then they have to come in, in the day.


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## snopuma (21 March 2015)

sportsmansB said:



			Funny I just checked back on this thread to see if the OP had replied yet as to why she hasn't / won't send the horse to an experienced person for a month or two to see if they can make any headway... and still no answer to that repeated question. 
The amount of horses I have seen who come for training to a good yard with an experienced rider and can be turned around- and their owners can come and have lessons on them once they are on the right path, and rebuild lost confidence under supervision and with support... I just don't know why you are so reluctant to even entertain this idea OP?
		
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If you had read my thread properly you would see that I lost my job after my fall, consequently I don't have any spare money to spend on training at the moment.


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## snopuma (21 March 2015)

lastchancer said:



			I very much suspect there's nothing wrong with mare horse except that she's well bred, hasn't been out in 5 weeks and her owner is a fool. 
A bit of lunging and in hand work over tarp is not going to settle her mind like full time turn out. Would her previous owner buy her back? Even after several years I'd have any of mine back if I found them in a predicament like you've put this poor horse in.
		
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what a thoroughly ignorant thing to say, I suggest you read the full thread before you put your off hand comments on here.


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## lastchancer (22 March 2015)

snopuma said:



			what a thoroughly ignorant thing to say, I suggest you read the full thread before you put your off hand comments on here.
		
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I have read the whole thread, including your vile insults directed at people who are giving you sound advice. Hence the less than sympathetic response.

Turn her out with company 24/7 (she's a horse, she'll get used to it) leave her be for a month or two and she'll very probably be much, much more sensible when you come to work her again.


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## Firewell (22 March 2015)

SpringArising said:



			I have read about five pages and I'm going to assume she has no medical issues. 

First of all, the horse isn't getting any real turnout or exercise. I guarantee you that is the issue. As soon as you said that she isn't getting any turnout I didn't bother reading any further. 

It sounds like there are no real rules in place, the horse walks all over you and you are terrified. 

She's scared because you are. That's the crux of the matter. 

I bought a gelding who had just turned five. I had him shipped to me without viewing him and as soon as he walked off the lorry he was a little ******. 

He bit, bronced, reared, took off, kicked out at horses and other people, spun around me as I was leading him and charged at me. Two years later he was a little mannerly saint doing PC with a thirteen-year-old girl. 

Your horse just really, really needs someone who is kind but confident. She doesn't need shouting at or punching, she just needs someone who isn't phased by quirkyness. I promise you she would be a different horse with the right handling!

Where are you based?
		
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I agree with this poster.

I do understand that some ex racers won't be turned out in winter. My mum has one and he wants to come in under 10 mins and the one time we ignored him and hoped he would 'suck it up' he jumped out the field, escaped up the road and we had to get a search party out to look for him (luckily someone caught him in their driveway!).
Anyway he's fine to be out in the summer when its warm but in the winter he is lunged/ridden/walked in hand each day plus he has an hr in the round pen plus however long he will stay out for. My mum always does something to exercise him and keep him busy every day so really in the right hands no all day turnout shouldn't be an issue (although I agree it's the ideal).

Back to above post and what I said earlier I simply think this is the wrong horse for OP. I think they would both be happier if they parted ways. Riders move horses on all the time because they don't bring out the best in each other, look at Mary King and Chilli Morning. Sometimes if you love something you let them go.


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## Firefly9410 (22 March 2015)

lastchancer said:



			I very much suspect there's nothing wrong with mare horse except that she's well bred, hasn't been out in 5 weeks and her owner is a fool. 
A bit of lunging and in hand work over tarp is not going to settle her mind like full time turn out. Would her previous owner buy her back? Even after several years I'd have any of mine back if I found them in a predicament like you've put this poor horse in.
		
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Further back in the thread the OP says the previous owner offered to take the horse back in the early days because she had another buyer for her. The OP declined having already paid for saddler, vaccinations and passport change of ownership. Considering the cost of keeping an unsuitable horse on livery for 4yrs, the injuries to OP and resulting loss of her employment, I think that was a false economy.



snopuma said:



			its  abuse when I have said she has been seen by vets, physio and osteo and still they keep on, I am not dismissing the idea of a work up at the vets, but it is not how she displays, if she is tense or spooky she broncs, if she is calm and the sun is shining etc... she does not, I would assume that if she had a medical problem that she would present the same on every/most occasions regardless of her mood?  I don't know maybe I have been thinking about this situation for nearly 4 years unlike the people on here who have decided whats wrong with her without seeing her or knowing her, and have decided this in a forum in the last 24hours,  seriously who would know more about my mare? Its abuse when I have said I won't sell her, won't PTS and they say I should, they don't seriously think I would take that advice from a bunch of strangers on a forum?  would they like it if I said it about their horses?  I have been told by my YO that when she dies she wants to come back as one of my horses, because I care so much and they want for nothing, so go figure.
		
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It is not abuse, it is multiple people disagreeing with you all of whom have explained why. 



snopuma said:



			Why O Why do people keep on about turnout, at the moment I cannot turn her out, my other horse is on box rest, so she has no-one to go out with and when I do turn her out as soon as I let her go she wants to come in, I walk away and leave her for an hour at least she is out of sight of the yard and I muck out, then I sneak up to where I can see the gate and she can't see me and there she is waving a leg at the gate in a terrible state, sweating, covered in mud.
		
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I bought what seemed like a laid back horse, put him on DIY livery. Every morning I turned up for turnout and there he was bang bang banging the stable door over and over. After a month or so I said to some other liveries sort of joking, you all must hate me having to listen to this all the time I am surprised the YO has not asked me to leave. They were surprised and totally not bothered, saying he only starts that when he hears me walking down the road the rest of the time he is dead quiet. This a busy road with traffic and pedestrians but he could tell my steps from others. You hide to see what your mare is upto OP but she probably heard you coming from the moment you set foot on the lane to the field. I have two now and there are days when the second can go from calm, clean and grazing, to running about, sweated up, covered herself in mud splats and churn near the gate up in the ten min it takes to get the other one in and go back.


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