# Heavy riders, who should speak out and when*spin off*



## Big Ben (19 October 2012)

It's no secret that I came over here following the hysteria over the Fuller Fillies 22" saddle, and the larger riders posting pics on an American based forum. I have been thinking a lot about this issue, and would like to discuss another point. I may be, probably am, whistling in the wind, when I ask that people try and stay polite and nearly on topic, but, hey ho, a girl has to try.

There is obviously a huge divide in what people find acceptable both between countries, and different people within countries. It is a subject that sometimes brings out hateful and poisonous remarks in the safety and relative anonymity of message boards, but when and where, who and how should the issue be addressed.

Often times people say that their vet/trainer etc say that they are fine, is that because they are the customer, and people don't want to lose the business?

What about the lady who has shared pictures of her at 275 pounds competing in competitive trail rides,  should the vets and or judges be telling her she is to big, or is the fact that her horse passes the vetting proof that it is OK?

I compete in video dressage competitions, and have only ever had one remark, and that was for my last test, when i had gained a lot of weight and lost condition, due to knee surgery back in the summer, and that was Cesar Parra saying "remember you need to be fit to ride dressage" totally valid point.

OK, people said I was brave sharing this pic, but I don't call it brave, I feel fine on this boy, my trainer says I'm fine, he is still in training so we haven't been judged yet, but if he was ready I would compete him, Intro level dressage, maybe training.







Now this is brave, I have only ridden this girl once, and although my trainer says we are fine, I'm not sure. She is one for next year.








This photo prompted some of these thoughts, I know that people were upset with some riders shown, but this is in a different category, I don't know who this person is, but this is a different level of weight carrying than any of the folk that posted before.













That does not look OK in anyway to me, and I wonder how people can ride with him and not say something, maybe they do speak up and he ignores them anyway, who knows..

Point is, who should speak up, when and how? It is easy to set weight limits for your own horse, and refuse others to ride, but what on their own horse, would you say something to me in real life, if you saw me on Ben, or Willow? Would you speak up if the gentleman posted turned up to ride with you?

At competitions, should judges be allowed to exclude people for a bad fit, should on site vets call it.. over to you


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## FfionWinnie (19 October 2012)

The guy with the hi viz on appears to be about to fall off sideways so perhaps the riders don't know any better. The grey is ludicrous. Hopefully the guy sees the pics and gets off. Utterly terrible. I couldn't see your pics. 

If I saw the guy on the grey I couldn't not say anything.


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## YorksG (19 October 2012)

Hate to be picky, but the fuller fillies saddle was 22" 
I think it is a problem knowing when to say something, but if the rider was like the bloke you posted and so obviously too heavy, for an incidentaly too thin horse, then I would indeed say something. With others, it may be that a tactful comment about not riding too far, or for too long would be enough.
With regard to competition, I think most list judges would indeed speak up and you can bet a pound to a penny the pair would not be placed, which may help to get the message across.


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## dumpling (19 October 2012)

Oh my goodness, the man on that grey. That's shocking. I'd've shoved him off if I was there! 

I don't think I've seen anyone morbidly obese at shows riding, it's not something that's brought up , I think it would only be brought up if the horse was obviously in pain, not coping. I'm talking about showing and dressage, I've never really seen a 'larger' person show jump.  Definitely competition wise if the horse doesn't look happy or like its giving its 'all' due to the size of the rider something should be said or horse and rider put down the line.


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## dressedkez (19 October 2012)

There are heavy riders and those who ride light - a heavy person can ride light (if in balance with the horse) and light rider can ride heavy if not........


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## Big Ben (19 October 2012)

YorksG said:



			Hate to be picky, but the fuller fillies saddle was 22" 

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*Whistles innocently* that's what I said


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## debsey1 (19 October 2012)

Poor poor horse   I would be utterly shocked if I saw someone of this size on a horse. I would certainly say something I wouldn't be able to keep quiet


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## Little Fat Pony (19 October 2012)

Big Ben said:



			Point is, who should speak up, when and how? It is easy to set weight limits for your own horse, and refuse others to ride, but what on their own horse, would you say something to me in real life, if you saw me on Ben, or Willow? Would you speak up if the gentleman posted turned up to ride with you?

At competitions, should judges be allowed to exclude people for a bad fit, should on site vets call it.. over to you
		
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IMO, everyone/anyone should speak up, if they feel they should. There's no need to be harsh or cruel and go in all guns blazing, there are ways around it. 

If I saw that man riding I would say something. That is just cruel, and there is no way that he can actually think he is an acceptable weight to ride. 

I think vets/judges should exclude people, and tell them straight "you are too heavy", it's not fair on the horse otherwise. I think thats where part of the problem stems from, people are afraid to open their mouths and speak out. 

Off topic but I had the vet out for my horses vaccinations the other day and he said weight wise he's perfect but he needs more topline, which I already knew, so agreed with him and had a conversation about it. He said I was one of the only people who doesn't take offence when he critises their horse, and it confused me. Do people genuinely get upset when a vet critiques their horse? Surely if a vet says your horse is overweight/underweight you know it's in the horses best interests? In this respect I think it should be the same for people. I can understand people getting upset if someone rudely said they were too heavy, but if someone worded it politely, then I see no problem with that.

Sorry, I dont even think I've answered your question, but it is thought-provoking


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## Little Fat Pony (19 October 2012)

YorksG said:



			I think it is a problem knowing when to say something, but if the rider was like the bloke you posted and so obviously too heavy, for an incidentaly too thin horse, then I would indeed say something. With others, it may be that a tactful comment about not riding too far, or for too long would be enough.
With regard to competition, I think most list judges would indeed speak up and you can bet a pound to a penny the pair would not be placed, which may help to get the message across.
		
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That is exactly what I think, just worded 10 times better than my earlier post


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## FfionWinnie (19 October 2012)

Big Ben said:



			*Whistles innocently* that's what I said

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Funny it said 20" the first time I read it too.


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## meesha (19 October 2012)

I think if u r asking the ? And posting pics then u probably have doubts as to whether u should be riding the horses in the pics.  They r your horses and it is your choice but just because the horse can carry u does it mean it should? I am no skinny myself and think u have to make your own decisions.


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## YorksG (19 October 2012)

FfionWinnie said:



			Funny it said 20" the first time I read it too.
		
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Thank goodness, I thought I was having a funny turn


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## FfionWinnie (19 October 2012)

YorksG said:



			Thank goodness, I thought I was having a funny turn 

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No funnier than usual


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## RealityCheck (19 October 2012)

dressedkez said:



			There are heavy riders and those who ride light - a heavy person can ride light (if in balance with the horse) and light rider can ride heavy if not........
		
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But you cannot physically make yourself weigh any less. A 300lb rider is always going to be 300lb, whether they have good seat and hands or not. 

And for what it's worth, I would not be allowing the OP on any of my similarly built horses, but I guess that's personal choice.


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## Bikerchickone (19 October 2012)

Hmm, tricky questions to answer! I'm a heavier rider myself and I would say something to the man on the grey, partly because he is so obviously too heavy and the other part because the horse he's riding isn't fit and muscled up to help it cope with his bulk. 

Seeing you out and about on the first of your two horses I don't think I'd have anything to say to you about it, assuming I wasn't seeing you galloping around like a mad thing and attempting 4' jumps. The mare I'm not so sure about, the photo is smaller and I think she looks a bit finer and longer in the back than your other horse so maybe I'd feel you shouldn't ride her. I'm a similar size to you though so that would make me reluctant to say anything. Personally I have two horses, one heavyweight irish cob standing at about 15hh whom I ride several times a week both hacking and schooling but no jumping because I don't like it, and the other is a 15.3hh IDxWB 5 year old who I won't ride at all yet because I know I'm too heavy for her. Some people might well think I was too heavy for my cob, however I know he is relatively fit and is comfortable carrying me working correctly in the school for dressage or working loosely out on a hack so I don't tend to worry about it. If for any reason I even thought he was uncomfortable or struggling then I wouldn't ride him any more until I'd shifted the weight, but of course shifting the weight isn't as easy as it sounds as some of us well know!


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## YorksG (19 October 2012)

FfionWinnie said:



			No funnier than usual 

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Cheeky!


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## ShadowFlame (19 October 2012)

I think weight is a difficult one. Some finer horses carry weight better than you'd expect, and some cobs have conformation that means they don't carry weight quite so well. If the horse is happy and coping, there isn't really an issue. My lad is a 14.2/3ish 5 yr old cob, he's carried a 15st 6ft bloke before without batting an eyelid, but having said that he does have a lot of bone. I knew a cob a while ago, same size, not quite so heavy built (but not far off) and overweight. His owner was a "large" lady, and he slowly developed lameness that the vet couldn't pinpoint, along with a very bad back, to a point where he ended up on box rest for weeks at a time. He'd come sound again, but as soon as she got back on board he'd start hopping again, yet he was fine with lighter riders. Do you say something? It's hard to know where your place is, and everyone will have a different opinion about it. However, if it's fairly obvious a horse is suffering as a result of the weight it's carrying, something should probably be said (or as someone else said, a helping push might not go amiss!).


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## Dizzle (19 October 2012)

How would you find a horse to fit a 22 inch saddle? 

I want to get my OH riding lessons for Christmas, he's a 6ft2 former rugby player so he's not a small chap, but the closest place to him has a 15 stone weight limit, not sure how much he weighs but I doubt he's under 15 stone.


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## Littlelegs (19 October 2012)

If I saw that guy, I would have to go & smoke a few cigs & calm down, as my immediate response would get me arrested for gbh. What a truly vile & twisted way to treat an animal. 
  In the past I have told people they are too big in an instructors capacity. And once refused to teach a very heavy teen with a tiny scrawny pony, when my reasoning was ignored. And with one or two others. Not randomly approaching them shouting abuse. But along the lines of when we've been talking anyway & they've brought up either some riding issue or even their weight themselves. 
  And not necessarily obese people. I once pointed out to a lady of 12stone & 6' that riding her kids elderly shettie to the field was not the 'laugh' she thought it was. A few on that forum I would have to bite my lip while I rephrased my initial thoughts. Not out of any desire to save feelings, but in the hope I might be listened to.


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## Cinnamontoast (19 October 2012)

Jaysus, the grey should be riding the bloke! The rider is way too fat, let's stop mincing words here, not heavy, not well built, plain ruddy fat. (I say this as a fat person myself) I hate these stupid terms I've seen bandied about: fluffy? Dream on, fat is the word. 

I know I am way too fat, even for the boy in my sig, even though the farrier, physio etc keep saying I'm fine. There's no horse, IMO, that I should be getting on right now and OP, I'm sorry, you are a lot bigger than me, so IMO, way too big to ride any horse currently. (And no, I'm not an 8 stone dripping wet, size 10 body dismorphia, am I too big for my mammoth type, honest!)

I think anyone (female) over about 16/17 stone should be seriously asking why they are that weight unless there's a medical issue and trying to do something about it, up to and including extreme surgery if they have really tried and failed with every dieting avenue.


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## Starbucks (19 October 2012)

dressedkez said:



			There are heavy riders and those who ride light - a heavy person can ride light (if in balance with the horse) and light rider can ride heavy if not........
		
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I don't understand this at all - if you are heavy you are heavy!!

In answer to OP, it should be down to rider responsibility. Otherwise maybe a kind word from the judge saying "I think you might be slightly under horsed".

It's all horses for courses.


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## mandwhy (19 October 2012)

I think the first of your two horses looks to be coping fine anyway OP. Even the second one I wouldn't say you look THAT drastically too heavy but that's my opinion as a fairly heavyish person, probably wouldn't suggest taking up puissance or anything 

To be honest I would find it very difficult to tell someone they are too heavy for their horse, just as I don't really like to stick my nose in, I find horsey people often a bit too forthright with their opinions. 

I think certainly vets at shows should be able to exclude people and that should get the message across, but I wouldn't want this to lead to the usual weight nazis going round imposing weight limits on people's OWN horses, it's bad enough that riding schools have the weight limits that they do despite having horses perfectly capable. If it was genuinely based on individuals that would be fine. Judges... well they seem to have some funny ideas about what is an appropriate weight for a horse so wouldn't like them to comment on people too, but perhaps feedback could be tactfully given. 

The guy on the grey, well I'd be surprised if that horse is not displaying some sort of physical problem when ridden so I'd probably suggest he take it home and give it a rest, and send him adverts of horses I think he might like!


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## dressedkez (19 October 2012)

Starbucks said:



			I don't understand this at all - if you are heavy you are heavy!!

In answer to OP, it should be down to rider responsibility. Otherwise maybe a kind word from the judge saying "I think you might be slightly under horsed".

It's all horses for courses.
		
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Rubbish..... an 8 stone person can ride at 12 stone if they are not in balance with their horse.


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## RealityCheck (19 October 2012)

dressedkez said:



			Rubbish..... an 8 stone person can ride at 12 stone if they are not in balance with their horse.
		
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Yes, but you cannot make yourself lighter - unless one of the benefits of being fat is the superpower of gravity manipulation?

300lb is never going to be any lighter or less damaging.


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## Flame_ (19 October 2012)

The question is whose place it is to speak out? Do welfare organizations have any responsibility to act on complaints about horses expected to carry too much weight? Whenever anyone has general welfare concerns, the advice is usually "report it". Can anything be done about a big fat person riding a too small horse?

Obviously on forums its a place for airing opinions but in RL I don't think I'd have any right to tell anyone to stop riding their horse unless it was on my property (which would be hard because I don't have a property  ) or if I had judging or training responsibilities (again, hard as I'm not a judge or trainer). 

If this isn't grounds for the welfare charities to step in then it might be time they considered looking into it since people are getting fatter and sooner or later its going to be a frequent issue.


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## Starbucks (19 October 2012)

dressedkez said:



			Rubbish..... an 8 stone person can ride at 12 stone if they are not in balance with their horse.
		
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An 8 stone rider can ride badly or well, a 18 stone rider can ride badly or well. My money is on the 8 stone rider being fitter and more inbalance with themselves, never mind the horse.

As someone else said, you can only make yourself heavier, not lighter!


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## Littlelegs (19 October 2012)

There isn't really a 'right' to mention it unless in professional capacity. But a moral one, yes. If I saw someone batter a horse with a whip, or riding a lame horse I'd say something because I can't stand by & watch an animal hurt. Being far too heavy is no different. I don't generally go round interfering with people, but cruelty is different.


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## dressedkez (19 October 2012)

RealityCheck said:



			Yes, but you cannot make yourself lighter - unless one of the benefits of being fat is the superpower of gravity manipulation?

300lb is never going to be any lighter or less damaging.
		
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Yes, that is a good point well made, but the point I am trying to make is that a a good 'heavy rider' will always ride better than a poor 'light rider'. We all have seeen those that lean on the back on the saddle, slump in the saddle and so not have a clue.....Sadly, due to my working life - I have probabaly gained about 3 stone over the past three years - but I still ride relatively light, due to past riding experience.


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## YorksG (19 October 2012)

dressedkez said:



			Yes, that is a good point well made, but the point I am trying to make is that a a good 'heavy rider' will always ride better than a poor 'light rider'. We all have seeen those that lean on the back on the saddle, slump in the saddle and so not have a clue.....Sadly, due to my working life - I have probabaly gained about 3 stone over the past three years - but I still ride relatively light, due to past riding experience.
		
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But not as lightly as you did when you were 3 stone lighter, in fact you will ride 3 stone heavier.


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## devonlass (19 October 2012)

I'll be honest none of those pics look 'fine' to me.Yours don't look too bad.First one the horse doesn't look too concerned,but very hard to tell from one snapshot in time,I don't think you as a rider look comfortable and balanced though.You may well ride perfectly fine BTW,but the look suggests you could not be as agile,effective and as secure as you would be if carrying less weight.Like mentioned before though hard to tell from a pic.Second one is a bit too small for me to see it very well.

I hope you don't take this as rude OP and feel free to ignore,but I am going to guess you are in excess of 16-17st weight wise?? I think when you are getting into those kind of weights (and assuming that weight is fat not muscle before anyone with a rugby player husband jumps on me!!),it should be time to start considering addressing it not only for your horses benefit but for your health as well.
I'm not saying you should or shouldn't ride that isn't my place,but there has to be a cut off IMO for riding any horse for regular and proper work.Is down to you to decide where that is.

As for the guy in the last ones,well I wouldn't just say something,I'd be hauling his great big lard @rse off the poor pony


Slightly O/T but few years ago I was worried about my pony's comfort carrying me so decided to tackle my weight.Took nearly a year and a complete change of eating habits and attitude to exercise but I lost over 3 stone and have kept most of it off ever since.It can be done,and ultimately was a far simpler approach than constantly questioning and berating myself for being too heavy to ride.
IME addressing the cause of a problem is by far the simplest and most effective way of dealing with it


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## Starbucks (19 October 2012)

dressedkez said:



			Yes, that is a good point well made, but the point I am trying to make is that a a good 'heavy rider' will always ride better than a poor 'light rider'. We all have seeen those that lean on the back on the saddle, slump in the saddle and so not have a clue.....Sadly, due to my working life - I have probabaly gained about 3 stone over the past three years - but I still ride relatively light, due to past riding experience.
		
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So all larger riders are good riders, there are no bad ones?  I bit like all fat women are "real", have a much better personality and are more attractive to men than "stick insects"? 

Get a grip!


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## Trinity Fox (19 October 2012)

Yes I think we should speak out the guy on the grey is a joke and who would see that and say nothing, I think op you are far too big for both of those horses and would not allow it if they were mine.

For some reason we seem to have a situation where it is a taboo subject, if you are too heavy then you have to accept that and think about the horse, I restrict what I eat alot and if my weight creeps up I diet purely for the sake of the horses I am riding. I think it is incredibly selfish to expect your horse to lug around all that weight.

Recently at an event I was at, there was several very overweight riders on horses not up to it, a letter was written to the paper by somebody stating some very valid points, there was then a response of the horses are happy with it, horses were bred to carry weights and several references to higlands carrying stags and horses being used to carry massive weights in the past etc etc, and friends of said people showing support, when they should kindly tell the truth and state when a rider really is too big.

I have refused to let people I feel are too heavy try horses when I have been selling, I feel very strongly that if you really want to ride and are thinking about the horse you will wait until you have lost weight before you ride.

I do not think you need to be nasty about it but do think we should stop pussy footing around the issue. It is better for health reasons not to be so large but I have no issue with people being whatever size they want or having any lifestyle they wish but that changes when that is forced on an animal who has no choice in the matter.


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## Littlelegs (19 October 2012)

But dressed kez, that only works between relatively similar weights. 8 stone will never feel like 20, no matter how awful they ride. 
  And where did this attitude that many light riders are unbalanced, bouncing riders whilst all heavy riders are balanced & competent originate from? That's certainly not my experience.


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## Cinnamontoast (19 October 2012)

littlelegs said:



			There isn't really a 'right' to mention it unless in professional capacity. But a moral one, yes. If I saw someone batter a horse with a whip, or riding a lame horse I'd say something because I can't stand by & watch an animal hurt. Being far too heavy is no different. I don't generally go round interfering with people, but cruelty is different.
		
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I might mention if I thought one of the kids at the RS was too big for a horse, but where do you draw the line and what else would you discuss?

There's a new horse at the yard, total dope on a rope from what I've seen so far. I saw him being ridden after the proud new owner had been to a tack shop (she asked me if I could help fit a saddle, I told her to get a professional out, at least she did this, thank God) He has on a grackle. I asked why they chose this bridle, does he cross his jaw, get his tongue over the bit....? No, she liked the look of it.  Just depresses me. Cruelty or doesn't matter? I would always start with a snaffle and work up if needed, but is it cruelty?


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## dressedkez (19 October 2012)

Starbucks said:



			So all larger riders are good riders, there are no bad ones?  I bit like all fat women are "real", have a much better personality and are more attractive to men than "stick insects"? 

Get a grip!
		
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I am strugggling with the point you are making - are you being 'fattest' or 'thinnest'? Are you saying becuase I have got fatter.... I should be giving up the horses.....perhaps? Of course fat riders, as well as thin ones are bad riders.....but those who were once good riders, cannot be good, because they have got fatter? Blimey, might have to end it all tomorrow !!!


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## devonlass (19 October 2012)

dressedkez said:



			Rubbish..... an 8 stone person can ride at 12 stone if they are not in balance with their horse.
		
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Sorry but you can't possibly say that with accuracy,how did you determine this exactly??

12 stone is 12 stone,balanced or not.

Why do we think that horses feel less weight just because the rider is more skilled?? It might bounce around less,or more elegantly but the weight remains what it is,it simply cannot 'feel' less than what it is

Heavier people (and I class myself in this still as no 8 stone light weight even now),are sure to struggle more with balance and agility than lighter people of a similar ability.I know I do,add age into the equation and I'm practically decrepid but that's another story lol


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## Littlelegs (19 October 2012)

Ct, I think it depends on the level of suffering. I don't have a standard rule, I go off each case individually. The situation you mention I wouldn't say anything, unless they approached me for schooling help, as while I feel its unfair, its not cruel imo.


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## mhorses (19 October 2012)

No chance on earth would I be seen dead wearing jods if I was the size of a whale.


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## Cinnamontoast (19 October 2012)

littlelegs said:



			Ct, I think it depends on the level of suffering. I don't have a standard rule, I go off each case individually. The situation you mention I wouldn't say anything, unless they approached me for schooling help, as while I feel its unfair, its not cruel imo.
		
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Other than asking why they had bought a grackle, I have not said anything. I don't think the pony is suffering, it's not my business and there are plenty of instructors etc around if anything untoward occurs.


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## devonlass (19 October 2012)

mhorses said:



			No chance on earth would I be seen dead wearing jods if I was the size of a whale.
		
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Well it doesn't get more to the point than that lol

Personally I always feel the size of a whale in jods,swear they are designed to make everyone feel that way!!


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## dressedkez (19 October 2012)

devonlass said:



			Sorry but you can't possibly say that with accuracy,how did you determine this exactly??

12 stone is 12 stone,balanced or not.

Why do we think that horses feel less weight just because the rider is more skilled?? It might bounce around less,or more elegantly but the weight remains what it is,it simply cannot 'feel' less than what it is

Heavier people (and I class myself in this still as no 8 stone light weight even now),are sure to struggle more with balance and agility than lighter people of a similar ability.I know I do,add age into the equation and I'm practically decrepid but that's another story lol
		
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But if you are an experienced horse person, you do your self an injustice here - what ever you weigh (within usual boundaries - and based on the horse you ride) than you will be able to ride a 12HH as well as you can sit on an 18HH. It is not so much about weight carrying capacity, but how you balance with the horse - when I was 15 years I could ride 10HH to 18HH - but the upper height I rode less well, Now I am almost 50 than I struggle with 10HH, but I could still ride 12HH for 30 mins and not break it - because I still have balance, I could also ride 18HH better, than I could at 15 years, because I have a little more 'gravity'. 
Fat people should not ride horses per se, but please don't start having a fat ometer - where if you are 9 stone you ride a TB (max) and 14 stone it has to be a Shire, and any heavier than that - well just don't bother.......


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## Littlelegs (19 October 2012)

I'd probably do the same Ct.


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## Rose Folly (19 October 2012)

It's a really difficult question. That huge guy on the little grey Araby horse looked appalling. But throughout the ages, in the Uk and Europe, it was common for ladies, children to ride pillion. So you put up your 11 stone man, with his 9 stone wife riding pillion, and you probably have a greater weight than the big guy in the pic. And horses coped with it. As has been pointed out in other threads, Highland ponies bring down the stags off the hill - probably 16 stone+. The Dales ponies were bred to carry lead from the mines at Alston, high on the Northumberland fells, down to the docks at Newcastle. They carried two paniers with 8 stone of lead in each pannier; I believe the distance is about 29 miles, and they were capable of trotting a lot of the way.

I don't think it helps to speak out unless you have  very definite proof that the horse is suffering - not just because you think it doesn't look dainty. 

He also looks totally unbalanced, whereas OP looks fine on her horse. The point about being heavy/riding light and being light/riding heavy is a very valid point.


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## meesha (19 October 2012)

I think we are much too focused on how a rider looks on the horse when the real question is what weight would that horse comfortably carry!  All the horses shown I would guess would be happy with up to 14/15 stone but I would question anymore on them but I am not sure I would comment, it depends on circumstances (although would have to be held back from man on grey)


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## Big Ben (19 October 2012)

Here goes the multi quote queen, but first thanks to everyone who has posted so far, and have honestly shared their thoughts.





meesha said:



			I think if u r asking the ? And posting pics then u probably have doubts as to whether u should be riding the horses in the pics.  They r your horses and it is your choice but just because the horse can carry u does it mean it should? I am no skinny myself and think u have to make your own decisions.
		
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No I wasn't actually asking about me and the big guy, as I said I'm fine on him on our current walk, trot, 20 mins 2 or 3 times a week with ground work in between. The small pic, well yeah my personal jury is out on her.



bikerchickone said:



			Hmm, tricky questions to answer! I'm a heavier rider myself and I would say something to the man on the grey, partly because he is so obviously too heavy and the other part because the horse he's riding isn't fit and muscled up to help it cope with his bulk. 

Seeing you out and about on the first of your two horses I don't think I'd have anything to say to you about it, assuming I wasn't seeing you galloping around like a mad thing and attempting 4' jumps. The mare I'm not so sure about, the photo is smaller and I think she looks a bit finer and longer in the back than your other horse so maybe I'd feel you shouldn't ride her. I'm a similar size to you though so that would make me reluctant to say anything.
		
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That's another issue, would I feel like a hypocrite if I was riding Bid Ben and said something to the guy on the grey? IDK. and you are not likely to find me galloping or jumping anything, not at this weight and unlikely at a lighter weight, I have this broad yellow streak down my back.



littlelegs said:



			In the past I have told people they are too big in an instructors capacity. And once refused to teach a very heavy teen with a tiny scrawny pony, when my reasoning was ignored. And with one or two others. Not randomly approaching them shouting abuse. But along the lines of when we've been talking anyway & they've brought up either some riding issue or even their weight themselves. 
  And not necessarily obese people. I once pointed out to a lady of 12stone & 6' that riding her kids elderly shettie to the field was not the 'laugh' she thought it was. A few on that forum I would have to bite my lip while I rephrased my initial thoughts. Not out of any desire to save feelings, but in the hope I might be listened to.
		
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Nice post and good thoughts. 



mandwhy said:



			I think the first of your two horses looks to be coping fine anyway OP. Even the second one I wouldn't say you look THAT drastically too heavy but that's my opinion as a fairly heavyish person, probably wouldn't suggest taking up puissance or anything 

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LOL, no puissance ambitions, maybe many years ago, but not anymore.



mandwhy said:



			To be honest I would find it very difficult to tell someone they are too heavy for their horse, just as I don't really like to stick my nose in, *I find horsey people often a bit too forthright with their opinions.* 

I think certainly vets at shows should be able to exclude people and that should get the message across, but I wouldn't want this to lead to the usual weight nazis going round imposing weight limits on people's OWN horses, it's bad enough that riding schools have the weight limits that they do despite having horses perfectly capable. If it was genuinely based on individuals that would be fine. Judges... well they seem to have some funny ideas about what is an appropriate weight for a horse so wouldn't like them to comment on people too, but perhaps feedback could be tactfully given. 

The guy on the grey, well I'd be surprised if that horse is not displaying some sort of physical problem when ridden so I'd probably suggest he take it home and give it a rest, and send him adverts of horses I think he might like!
		
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LOL



devonlass said:



			I'll be honest none of those pics look 'fine' to me.Yours don't look too bad.First one the horse doesn't look too concerned,but very hard to tell from one snapshot in time,I don't think you as a rider look comfortable and balanced though.You may well ride perfectly fine BTW,but the look suggests you could not be as agile,effective and as secure as you would be if carrying less weight.Like mentioned before though hard to tell from a pic.Second one is a bit too small for me to see it very well.

I hope you don't take this as rude OP and feel free to ignore,but I am going to guess you are in excess of 16-17st weight wise?? I think when you are getting into those kind of weights (and assuming that weight is fat not muscle before anyone with a rugby player husband jumps on me!!),it should be time to start considering addressing it not only for your horses benefit but for your health as well.
I'm not saying you should or shouldn't ride that isn't my place,but there has to be a cut off IMO for riding any horse for regular and proper work.Is down to you to decide where that is.

As for the guy in the last ones,well I wouldn't just say something,I'd be hauling his great big lard @rse off the poor pony

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I do not take any honestly and politely put opinion as being rude, but thank you for checking. I am aware that I am not at my best as a rider when I am this weight, and I am standing on the cusp of a drastic change. I am going to be doing the weight loss surgery diet, without the surgery 

The plan is in place, I just need to pull the trigger, and get on with it, it should give me a kick start to be able to work myself fit for next spring summer, when I hope I will feel comfortable to ride any of my horses, and to be able to compete Ben without a care in the world.




devonlass said:



			Heavier people (and I class myself in this still as no 8 stone light weight even now),are sure to struggle more with balance and agility than lighter people of a similar ability.I know I do,add age into the equation and I'm practically decrepid but that's another story lol
		
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LOL, should we start worrying about old riders as well


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## Littlelegs (19 October 2012)

Dressed kez, it doesn't matter how well you ride, the laws of gravity dictate you cannot be lighter than you are. You can be a greater burden by riding badly, but not a lighter one by riding well.


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## mhorses (19 October 2012)

Sorry didn't realise that was you in the pics! I was 15 stone 6 years ago and now 10.5 stone thanks to weekly visits to slimming world for six long years. You should give it a go! I am the worst dieter ever, but you are very brave putting photos of yourself on here.  I didn't ride until I cut down to 12 stone, good luck!
Mandy x


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## Starbucks (19 October 2012)

How about, if people just have to common sense to ride a suitably sized horse? It's really not rocket science!!


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## Fii (19 October 2012)

meesha said:



			They r your horses and it is your choice but just because the horse can carry u does it mean it should? I am no skinny myself and think u have to make your own decisions.
		
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 This slightly confuses me ^^^^^^ My answer would be......um....yes! Unless you believe that nobody should ride horses!


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## Big Ben (19 October 2012)

Starbucks said:



			How about, if people just have to common sense to ride a suitably sized horse? It's really not rocket science!!
		
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It isn't that easy either, I say Ben is suitable for me, but others argue he isn't, so whose suitable to we go with?


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## honetpot (19 October 2012)

Yes 12 stone will always be 12 stone but anyone who has held a wriggling child, a dog that doesn't want to be bathed, or done a piggy back with soemone who doesn't help will know that 1 stone can feel like 5 if it doesn't sit still or doesn't help.
  The guy on the grey is not only too heavy he is totally out of proportion to the horse so in now way would be able to shift his weight to assist his animal in carrying him. Mark Todd may not be too heavy for his horses but his long frame is a disadvantage but because he is extreemly skilled at shifting his weight and his frame he is not a hinderance to his horses. A novice rider of his height and weight would be.
 The OP may be larger than some people would like but its what you do with the weight and how fit and well muscled the horse is. I see lots of lighter people riding who I wouldn't want anywhere near my animals as they bounce, yank and generally have no consideration for the animal they are riding.


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## dressedkez (19 October 2012)

littlelegs said:



			Dressed kez, it doesn't matter how well you ride, the laws of gravity dictate you cannot be lighter than you are. You can be a greater burden by riding badly, but not a lighter one by riding well.
		
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And you are basing that assumption on.......???!!
Sadly you are possibly not that expirienced in how horses / ponies are actually ridden in the main stream - how arrogant are you being in reality? Please do share with the rest of us your weight, and tell us how wonderful is that is, in your own brand of horsemanship??? Oh am I being too persnal here?? Heaven forbid!!!


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## YorksG (19 October 2012)

I am getting a bit confused here, the tone of this thread appears to have gone down the route of ' heavy people ride better than light people, so heavy people ride lighter than they are and light people ride heavier than they are'. Now this is just not the case ime, so not sure where the evidence is for this.


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## indie999 (19 October 2012)

Quite a few riding schools in my area have weight limits and I think its 15 stone allocated to type of horse that could carry this maximum amount(Am sure heavier horse would carry a lot more). Look at Breton horses.

I would say alot of things in life have weight limits of what they can carry or pull even. But I suppose a study would need to be done as to the longevity of horses that carry heavier weights v same size horse carrying lighter weight.

I think the results would be obvious.

Why are humans asked to lose weight when they have ie joint problems prior to ie hip replacement, probably caused by being overweight in the first place. Excess weight causes joint problems so I am puzzled why someone wouldnt think that would apply to a horse as well.
Just because my dog has 4 legs it couldnt carry me.

I have been to the states 3 times and we notice how much bigger some americans are than at home although I think we are catching up with USA with obesity. 
Perhaps thats more the norm for leisure horses? Go to india and horses pull huge loads.
What is the norm?


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## Queenbee (19 October 2012)

Yes, I think everyone should speak up for what they do and do not believe, life is too short not to.  I am quite used to people expressing opinions that differ from mine, and sometimes they are posted on here, just because they are from behind a keyboard does not make them any less firmly held or pertinent.

Personally, words fail me that anyone would walk by that man and NOT say something about the condition of his horse and its weight carrying abilities in relation to him.

With regards to you, yes you are a larger person, but you seem to be fairly conscientious and pay thought to your weight and the effect it may or may not have on your horse.  In the first picture, I would like to see your horse with a bit more topline which would help with his carrying you, but he is a big lad, and not in bad condition, and as you say he is a work in progress.  In the second picture, it is a bit far away for me to really see, but if you value your trainers opinion and have doubts, discuss it with him/her.  

I have personally developed a thick skin and I would rather speak my tongue than bite it.  I doubt I would ever make a good judge as I would say what I think, I would be as polite about it as I could... but if I thought someone should not be in the show ring for whatever reason, condition of horse, weight of rider or soundness, I would ask them to leave the ring explaining my reasons.  

Within a yard environment it can be difficult to say your peice without it causing friction and animosity, in such circumstances then a quick word in the YOs ear is best, but it is my firm belief that in whatever manner, such views should be expressed, but they should always be done for truly valid reasons and never out of spite or nastiness.


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## Starbucks (19 October 2012)

Big Ben said:



			It isn't that easy either, I say Ben is suitable for me, but others argue he isn't, so whose suitable to we go with?
		
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I think it is. I'd rather not even have to question it.  I am a bit of a little person on a big horse, but someone asked me if I'd take their daughters 12.2 pony hunting the "sort it out", no way!!!

I think the hunter classification works quite well, a MW hunter is quite a big, chunky horse but not expected to carry more than 14 stone. Obviously coblets are a bit different, hence the use of common sense.


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## Big Ben (19 October 2012)

LOL, Queenbee, I was just going to quote you and you edited 

Yes, big fella needs to improve his top line, and that is what we are working on when I'm not riding, as well as working on my bond with him, which after 2 lessons at the weekend, half ground work and half mounted, is based around stop saying,

"It's OK Ben, I'm here for you"

to

"For @#$%'$ sake Ben, GROW A PAIR"

It's already paying dividends


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## Starbucks (20 October 2012)

dressedkez said:



			And you are basing that assumption on.......???!!
Sadly you are possibly not that expirienced in how horses / ponies are actually ridden in the main stream - how arrogant are you being in reality? Please do share with the rest of us your weight, and tell us how wonderful is that is, in your own brand of horsemanship??? Oh am I being too persnal here?? Heaven forbid!!!
		
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Based on scientific fact I would imagine!!!  Are you on another planet or what??


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## Queenbee (20 October 2012)

Big Ben said:



			LOL, Queenbee, I was just going to quote you and you edited 

Yes, big fella needs to improve his top line, and that is what we are working on when I'm not riding, as well as working on my bond with him, which after 2 lessons at the weekend, half ground work and half mounted, is based around stop saying,

"It's OK Ben, I'm here for you"

to

"For @#$%'$ sake Ben, GROW A PAIR"

It's already paying dividends
		
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Lol, it sounds like my baby Ben who has just been backed this june   I am sure you will get there and I note that you had an op on your knee, and am sure that the regular workout you both recieve will help both him with his topline and you to lose the weight you gained resting up after the op. He looks more than man enough to do the job


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## Littlelegs (20 October 2012)

Dressed kez, its not an assumption. The laws of gravity are well known last time I looked. No idea what's with your attitude or personal comments, I suggest you have a word with yourself. Seen as its obviously of interest to yourself, for reasons I can't begin to fathom, nor want to, I weighed 8'11 last time I checked. Which means I feel like 8'11 on a horses back. If I rode badly, as for some bizarre & unspecified reason you implied, I would be a greater burden. No idea why you seem to think my knowledge of gravity reflects my knowledge or experience of riding. Clearly you are having some issues.


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## devonlass (20 October 2012)

dressedkez said:



			Fat people should not ride horses per se, but please don't start having a fat ometer - where if you are 9 stone you ride a TB (max) and 14 stone it has to be a Shire, and any heavier than that - well just don't bother.......
		
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I am totally confused by your posts

You were on about rider weight feeling and being different based on rider ability or so I thought?? That is what I was responding to.A persons weight is what it is no matter what their riding ability,and i disagree that someone can feel 4 stone heavier or lighter based on skill as you seemed to be implying in your earlier post??
Balance and ability may well make the experience more pleasant for the horse and may look more elegant to an observer,but it does no alter the weight that is on the horses back.Personally I think it's an argument that get's trotted out to make ourselves feel better about being heavier riders.

I certainly never mentioned breed or size as I am a staunch advocate that weight carrying ability depends entirely on the horse as an individual and it's build and type,not on many hands it is or if it's a carthorse!!



Big Ben said:



			H
I am standing on the cusp of a drastic change. I am going to be doing the weight loss surgery diet, without the surgery 

The plan is in place, I just need to pull the trigger, and get on with it, it should give me a kick start to be able to work myself fit for next spring summer, when I hope I will feel comfortable to ride any of my horses, and to be able to compete Ben without a care in the world.

LOL, should we start worrying about old riders as well

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Good for you!! I can't do drastic dieting,but I did manage to lose weight none the less,just took a while.Sure you will succeed once you make that move to do it and you will feel so much better not having to second guess yourself about riding all the time.My only regret about changing my eating 'lifestyle' was that i didn't so it years ago.

Let us know how you get on,and don't be afraid to yell if need a virtual kick up the bum for the diet doldrums

As for age well TBH I strongly suspect that will stop me riding before weight does,or at least my premature ageing in regard to things going wrong.Swear I hit 35 and started falling to bits,and haven't stopped since lol



littlelegs said:



			Dressed kez, it doesn't matter how well you ride, the laws of gravity dictate you cannot be lighter than you are. You can be a greater burden by riding badly, but not a lighter one by riding well.
		
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What i was trying to say in my waffling post above,but littlelegs has put it much more exact and precisely.


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## Big Ben (20 October 2012)

Queenbee said:



			Lol, it sounds like my baby Ben who has just been backed this june   I am sure you will get there and I note that you had an op on your knee, and am sure that the regular workout you both recieve will help both him with his topline and you to lose the weight you gained resting up after the op. He looks more than man enough to do the job 

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Oh we will get there, Ben is only a baby in his training, he was only started last year, as a 9 year old, so he can be opinionated at times, but he is smart, and once he knows you mean business, he is all business. 

I am just starting to get really going again after the OP, I have had a year of limited mobility, so I have a lot of work to do, but I am looking forward to it.


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## Brigadoon (20 October 2012)

Lets be frank,the majority of overweight people eat too much and exercise too little. No one is forcing us to eat so many calories.... our horses certainly aren't. We all have a duty of care to our animals. Your handsome black horse looks very well looked after but sadly you are too heavy for him at present. A month of strict dieting and perhaps swimming ( since you have knee probs) would make a wealth of difference to your lad's life. Imagine by Christmas you could be wearing a size smaller breeches and knowing, if you kept it up, come spring you would be hopping on and off your other horse with ease as well.
I ain't no skinny and always have to be watching what I eat. I am sometimes asked to pop on something and never will if I feel I would be too big for it. 

People will often say " Ohhh no your not" when asked if you are too big for a horse but it's because it's a huge taboo. No-one baulks about not letting an in-experienced/rubbish/harsh etc etc rider on our horses but we tip-toe around hefty riders.
Years ago horses did do many things such as carry/pull great weights..but that doesn't mean it was right and gives us carte blanche to heave our massive frames onto our noble friends. 
As for that colossal man on that poor, skinny wee grey...I would shove him right off. A tiny shove would be all that it would need as he is so unbalanced.
That is down right cruelty.
OP, we can all lose weight and I hope you keep up with your bravery to pop on some slinky posts of you in the spring with your fabulous looking horses.


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## brighteyes (20 October 2012)

Mostly what *Brigadoon* said and also I would have pushed that fat guy on the grey off onto his fat arse and left him there. That picture is shameful.  Arrogant *******


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## Littlelegs (20 October 2012)

I think really when it comes to deciding what's a suitable weight we should always stay within what we know is fine, rather than what might be fine, seen as horses can't speak. Eg daughters pony I wouldn't want more than 6stones on. She could probably manage 6.5, & I doubt 7 would kill her. But as I don't actually know, 6 stone would be the max as I'm 100% sure she's fine under that weight.


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## ozpoz (20 October 2012)

I do hate the reasoning that the horse is fine carrying a heavy rider because it "copes" perfectly well.
Yes, it doesn't buckle and splat, but what about the cummulative damage to joints? Is it ethical to knowingly cause joint damage by riding at too big a weight?

I think people need to be educated to recognise when a horse can move freely carrying a rider and when not. I haven't yet seen a picture of a large person on a horse that shows freedom of movement.


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## Shysmum (20 October 2012)

I have only got as far as seeing that severly obese man on the grey horse, and all I can say is I want to throw up. If I saw that in the UK (where it is unlikely to happen), I would have the police and RSPCA out immediately. 

I find this subject very upsetting tbh - the poor horses are so good, they just carry on, even though their backs must be agony.


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## Kat (20 October 2012)

Answering the original question, I think vets at competitions, and doing vettings at endurance and eventing especially should speak up if someone is too heavy for their horse. Vets generally should say if a horse is struggling with weight or if performance issues are linked with rider weight. 

I think instructors should address weight issues with clients. 

I would be uncomfortable with judges tackling the issue as they seem to vary so much and have some odd ideas. Like the one that told Redmone's tiny whippett thin daughter she is too big for her chunky native. In practice though fatness will be a hindrance in showing and in dressage the pair will be marked down if it effects performance. 

Would I personally say anything...... I think it would have to be pretty extreme for me to say something if the subject wasn't raised.


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## Tinypony (20 October 2012)

I think that you can normally get some idea if the rider is too heavy when you see them and the horse together in real life.  The man on the grey - that's obvious.  You and your gelding Op - I haven't seen you in motion, but the people who judge your video dressage have and I'd expect them to tell you if they saw a problem.  However, I'm sure we all know that judges can come out with some daft ideas...  I do think that the people responsible for an event have some duty of care to the horses though.  Your filly is younger and a bit finer (judging from the photos you posted before) so I'm not sure about her.  I'd be inclined to put her on the back burner until your fantastic dedicated approach to losing weight has shown some results.  I think we owe it to our youngsters to cherish them a bit and hopefully then we will be riding them for many years to come.  Is it acceptable to express those honest opinions?
I have mentioned to a friend that their horse appears to be struggling with their weight, it can maybe be put in terms of how I think that the horse would perform better if it doesn't seem to be a really bad problem.  If I was faced with riding out with the guy on the grey, I'd decline and put my horse away.  It would depend on the circumstances who I'd speak to about it, be it him, the person organising the ride for example.
I do agree that some riders ride "lighter" than others because they have better balance, but that can only go so far to offset too much weight. 
But then, I'm getting to be a grumpy old woman these days.  )


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## ImmyS (20 October 2012)

In my opinion, people, horses, any animals should not be overweight. And I believe people should be a healthy weight before even getting on horse, not even for the horses good but for their own. We go on about people not realising a fat horse when you see one, well it's the same with people, it doesn't take much to be overweight. My mum, a nurse, sees overweight people all the time complaining of 'asthma' and similar ailments when in fact they are just overweight. I weigh just over 9 and a half stone and I'm 5ft 8 and I'm by no means stick thin...  There's no excuse for being overweight, whether horse or human and there's no excuse to inflict your weight on other creatures.


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## Tinypony (20 October 2012)

Mind you... a horse can appear to be carrying weight fine, but we do need to consider long-term damage.  I used to help at an RDA school.  They had a couple of big horses to use the the heavier riders (bigger than your gelding op) and cope the horses did.  However in the couple of years I was there I watched two of them go from joining the school to retiring to light work due to back and other physical problems, so you can't help but wonder.  After the second was sold as a light hack the school did reduce their weight limit to 14 stone.  Before anyone jumps on that as being too light... it was also for the benefit of helpers who were finding it physically difficult to help the heavier riders on and off the horses.


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## indie999 (20 October 2012)

ImmyS said:



			In my opinion, people, horses, any animals should not be overweight. And I believe people should be a healthy weight before even getting on horse, not even for the horses good but for their own. We go on about people not realising a fat horse when you see one, well it's the same with people, it doesn't take much to be overweight. My mum, a nurse, sees overweight people all the time complaining of 'asthma' and similar ailments when in fact they are just overweight. I weigh just over 9 and a half stone and I'm 5ft 8 and I'm by no means stick thin...  There's no excuse for being overweight, whether horse or human and there's no excuse to inflict your weight on other creatures.
		
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Absolutely what I was getting at. If the OP has had an op on her knee (i think thats what she said) she would have been told to lose weight. She should try to lose it before squashing her horse, but I think she could do that quite easily. Unfortunately people make money out of horses so their welfare isnt always important, as long as the human is having a nice time. I watched a very good instructor give a lame horse a lesson who was clearly lame(it was). Money. It is quite obvious big things squash little things. The weight on that horses back and the grey I agree is even worse, its legs look like they are compensating but hey the fat guy thinks he is fab and thats all that matters. Its only a horse and there are more where they came from.A shire would be more suitable or Breton type. or Elephant.


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## Cinnamontoast (20 October 2012)

Brigadoon said:



			Lets be frank,the majority of overweight people eat too much and exercise too little. No one is forcing us to eat so many calories.... our horses certainly aren't. We all have a duty of care to our animals. Your handsome black horse looks very well looked after but sadly you are too heavy for him at present. A month of strict dieting and perhaps swimming ( since you have knee probs) would make a wealth of difference to your lad's life. Imagine by Christmas you could be wearing a size smaller breeches and knowing, if you kept it up, come spring you would be hopping on and off your other horse with ease as well.
I ain't no skinny and always have to be watching what I eat. I am sometimes asked to pop on something and never will if I feel I would be too big for it.
		
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*Like*


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## Devonshire dumpling (20 October 2012)

I think I could draw up a chart for everyone to go by as a guideline, infact I could market it and makes loads of money..... if your arse if bigger than your horses arse, you probably shouldn't be riding it!


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## Cortez (20 October 2012)

Gosh, people are being so polite. I would most certainly tell someone if I though they were very much too heavy for their (or any) horse, and have done so - but then that is part of my job sometimes (I do a bit of training and judging). The man on the grey horse would be prosecuted for animal cruelty if he was in this part of the world. OP, your horse is a grand big fella, but he is long and weak in the back; if I was you I would not be riding this horse, nor the other mare either, until I had lost the weight and put considerably more muscle over my horses loin.


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## Littlelegs (20 October 2012)

I think the reason it goes on, quite often unchallenged is because people are scared of hurting feelings, & commenting on a persons weight is taboo. I bet if my 5'10 self started turning up at shows or big busy riding schools, yards etc on a 12hh exmoor or cob, with my feet down near its knees, I'd get a fair few comments. Despite the fact I'd be ok weightwise. However if a shorter, 12 stone person rode the same pony, people would keep quiet. Don't get me wrong, my height would prevent a pony that size performing to its maximum ability, & I'd look rather odd. But I imagine less so than the heavier rider.


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## kerilli (20 October 2012)

Wow, what a thread, and very brave of you, OP.
Brigadoon has said most of what I am sitting here thinking, but I'll add:
When I see a picture like the guy on the grey... I despair. We see the same sort of pics of (sometimes obese) tourists going down the Grand Canyon on very small mules, and of donkeys, mules, ponies, horses being used as beasts of burden all over the world. They look horribly overburdened and it makes me really sad but I know that that is just how it is for a lot of animals. If I was there and saw that guy I would go over and tell him that he's far too heavy for that horse, yes. For any horse actually. 100% I would. He could do with the exercise of walking, to put it bluntly.
OP, as for the pictures of you... would I say anything to you? No, not unless you asked me face-to-face for my opinion... which is I guess what you have done with this post? 
If I owned those horses and you turned up for a ride I would apologise, and say that you are too heavy at present. I would say that you can fuss them, groom them, take them for walks, do ground work with them, spend as long as you like with them, but not ride them. 
And I would advise you to go on a strict very-low-carb and low-fat, no fizzy drinks, loads of water, loads of protein and green veggies, diet, and do a lot of walking if you could. It works. It's not rocket science. It's not easy, especially with the temptations freaking EVERYWHERE the moment you go out, but it works. You could expect at least 2lb weight loss per week, reliably. And the euphoria that comes with that... wow. 
I think the current PC-ness about obesity is absolutely crippling. It fosters the delusion. If obese people are just going to sit on the sofa and ride Harleys, fine, their business. But when it leads to horses suffering, horses that don't live in the third world where they are overburdened because their owners are trying to eek out another few pennies to survive on, but horses owned by well-meaning people who profess to care about them but are sometimes ill-advised by those around them, sometimes with a vested interest, sometimes just too busy trying to be 'nice' and not hurt anyone's feelings...  well, I think I've made my feelings clear. 
I think you'd be a much better rider (balance, effectiveness of leg muscles, core stability, and so on), and a much easier passenger for your horse, if you lost a significant amount of weight.


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## Wagtail (20 October 2012)

That man is just cruel beyond belief! I would be telling him that in no uncertain terms. I have had to tell people on two occasions that they are too big for their horses. It is hard, especially when they are really lovely people and you don't want to hurt their feelings. One was a 20 stone plus woman who came to try out my 17.3 ID gelding, the other is (still) one of my liveries. However, said livery ignored my advice that she needed a bigger horse or lose a few stone. I have told her once a few years ago. Won't tell her again as it's her pony and up to her. But he is suffering some major back issues now. I felt it was my duty to tell her, even though it was really hard. What she does with the information is up to her.

OP, I have told you before that I think you are too heavy for your boy due to his conformational faults that I outlined in a previous thread, but you ignored. As for your mare, what were you thinking? She is a beautiful fine boned animal...


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## Honey08 (20 October 2012)

dressedkez said:



			I am strugggling with the point you are making - are you being 'fattest' or 'thinnest'? Are you saying becuase I have got fatter.... I should be giving up the horses.....perhaps? Of course fat riders, as well as thin ones are bad riders.....but those who were once good riders, cannot be good, because they have got fatter? Blimey, might have to end it all tomorrow !!!
		
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I am a rider who had put on 3 stone over the last few years due to injury and basically laziness.  I'm riding the same horse.  I'm an ok rider (Im an AI), but I do feel that I don't ride as well as I did before - there is more of me that wobbles, and I am convinced that my centre of gravity has changed a bit (boobs are a lot bigger..) so I am not as balanced as I was 3 stone ago.  My mare does fine, she is a big ISH, but I will not jump or get back to eventing until I get fit and lose weight.  Hopefully that process is on the way.

Of course there are bad fat riders and bad thin riders.  But a bad fat rider is worse, and a good fit rider is better for the horse than a good fat rider.  Sad fact for those of us overweight to take, but true.


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## Cortez (20 October 2012)

It is exponentially harder to ride well if you are overweight; your balance is off, your flexibility is off, your thighs will be round rather than flat against the saddle, your centre of gravity will be wrong and if you fall off you will hit the ground harder and hurt yourself more than if you are lighter (this is why kids "bounce" more than adults). I have never been very obese, but I weigh more now at 53 than I did at 23, and I certainly don't bounce anymore!


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## BeesKnees (20 October 2012)

I agree that weight has become a very taboo subject, and no wonder when our weight is so wrapped up in our emotions and our feelings about ourselves, our lives and our self-worth.

I've just come back from a holiday in Mexico. The resort was full of Americans, and what was interesting was the two extreme body types on show with very few in the middle. On the one hand there were the gym bunny 'hard bodies' with some of the scariest abdominals I've ever seen on women (and I'm a Pilates teacher so I have abs!). 

On the other hand were some of the fattest people I've ever seen (and interestingly here I was going to put 'large' as It feels uncomfortable to write 'fat'. But that is what it was).

We got talking with an American couple (not overweight), who talked about how hard it is to get healthy and fresh food and how everything comes in a super sized portion. They were amazed that we can get organic food in supermarkets in the UK!

From that, the US ads on tv, and the food available in resort and outside, it became very evident that so much of the food available in the States is processed crap. Even the bread is sweet and clearly has sugar in it. As did the natural yogurt (why???)

For the first time I understood how hard it must be to eat well in the States, and how easy to give in to the junk.  Massive portion sizes are considered normal. 

OP I wish you really well with your weight loss. You clearly love your horses and want to do something positive for them and for you. I hope you have support in place as no doubt it will be hard at times, but so worth it.


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## alainax (20 October 2012)

Just a tiny point on the balanced heavy riders/unbalance lighter riders...


I ride light, im overweight... but it doenst make me any less of my actuall weight on the horses back. Im still exactly what I weigh... Just gentler on the horses back than a beginner bouncing around. 

A beginner of my same weight would be more of a burden to the horse imo. 
(hence why riding schools set lower limits very often, ofc work load too)

However.. it couldnt possibly be said that I feel less than my weight to the horse, im just gentler for him. 


sooo..... imo... any rider... heavy or light... can either feel thier weight, or feel heavier. You cant possibly feel lighter. 


I guess the problem comes with the phrase " riding light" I guess your not really riding light... its more that others ride heavy...


Does that make sense?


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## Honey08 (20 October 2012)

I go to the states a lot, and while there is a lot of junk food, it is really easy to eat healthily too.  I go to their supermarkets and there is loads of gorgeous fruit and vet, lean meat, fat free products..  Its just _easier_ to eat junk.


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## joeanne (20 October 2012)

Big Ben said:



			It isn't that easy either, I say Ben is suitable for me, but others argue he isn't, so whose suitable to we go with?
		
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Sorry but you are kidding yourself if you think you are ok to ride that pony at that weight.
An odd half a stone might not be an issue if you rode well and were balanced, but at that weight, your riding ability will make no odds.....ultimately you are damaging your horses long term health by subjecting him to carrying that amount of weight.
His back and joints are being subjected to weights far greater than he is supposed to be carrying.
None of those pictures look "ok" to me.


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## Serephin (20 October 2012)

You could say something to the person, whether they listened or not, is another matter.  

The fact that the huge bloke is riding that horse in the first place suggests to me that the people around him didn't say anything, or if they did, were ignored.  For someone to get to that size in the first place they have already found many ways to justify their size and why they have a right to be fat and do what they want no matter what.

I once knew a woman who was having problems mounting her horse - it would buck her off and refuse to stand by the mounting block.  She asked me to help her on one time and the way she dragged her lard arse into that saddle left me open mouthed.  I said to her 'do you think maybe the way you are getting on might be hurting her back?' and she bit my head off and said No!  She also had a trainer who told her that she would benefit from seeing a back person as she was sitting crooked on the horse and affecting the horse's way of going.  So she dumped the trainer.

Some people just don't want to hear it.  They are so defensive about themselves that it falls on deaf ears.


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## BeesKnees (20 October 2012)

Honey08 said:



			I go to the states a lot, and while there is a lot of junk food, it is really easy to eat healthily too.  I go to their supermarkets and there is loads of gorgeous fruit and vet, lean meat, fat free products..  Its just _easier_ to eat junk.
		
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They sell gorgeous vets? 

OK maybe I'm just being too kind 

I think education around nutrition must come into it obviously. If you don't know what a balanced diet is, or what a reasonable portion is, then you make poor choices, get used to the taste of sugar, salt and fat, and then the healthy stuff just doesn't seem appealing.

And cost of course. Just as here in the UK, it can be cheaper to buy frozen processed crap than fresh food. 

I'm not making excuses for people. My husband and I make an effort to eat well, as he has a massive genetic tendency to blood pressure, diabetes and heart disease. We choose to deny ourselves high GI carbs and sugar most of the time and keep weight down. He could say, oh it's my genes, go into denail and not bother (as many of his family do) , but instead has chosen to fight it.


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## Tinseltoes (20 October 2012)

Honey08 said:



			I go to the states a lot, and while there is a lot of junk food, it is really easy to eat healthily too.  I go to their supermarkets and there is loads of gorgeous fruit and vet, lean meat, fat free products..  Its just _easier_ to eat junk.
		
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Being married to a american I lived in the USA for 8 years and gained weight,but now back in the UK the weight is coming off.Yes there is a lot of choices of food in the stores in USA and there is also a lot of junk food temptations too. (ho ho,twinkies ) yum!!!! as well as fast food resturants everywhere.
I feel sorry for that poor grey horse.That man is way to heavy for that horse


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## kerilli (20 October 2012)

BeesKnees said:



			They sell gorgeous vets? 

OK maybe I'm just being too kind 

I think education around nutrition must come into it obviously. If you don't know what a balanced diet is, or what a reasonable portion is, then you make poor choices, get used to the taste of sugar, salt and fat, and then the healthy stuff just doesn't seem appealing.

And cost of course. Just as here in the UK, it can be cheaper to buy frozen processed crap than fresh food. 

I'm not making excuses for people. My husband and I make an effort to eat well, as he has a massive genetic tendency to blood pressure, diabetes and heart disease. We choose to deny ourselves high GI carbs and sugar most of the time and keep weight down. He could say, oh it's my genes, go into denail and not bother (as many of his family do) , but instead has chosen to fight it.
		
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This. It is an effort. Fattening food is EVERYWHERE. You can't get a 'quick snack' that's healthy. Queuing up in River Island (FGS) there are sweets right by the till. There should be a law against that!  
America has extra problems because there is corn syrup in just about everything (which the Powers That Be staunchly defend, to protect the corn growers, apparently) and because a normal portion there is HUGE. I have a big appetite and was shocked. I'm talking lasagne, in 1 restaurant, 1 serving was honestly enough to feed 6-8 adults, with no exaggeration at all...  and if you grow up with huge portions, and sugar in everything...
They have sugar in their bread. It's shocking. Sugar makes you fat. Simples, as the wise meerkat says.  
It's getting worse here... it is a struggle. I love going into Costa coffee but all I can have is 1 or 2 large Costa Light lattes. There is NOTHING in there that I can eat and stick to my aim to avoid sugar, wheat, fat. I fill up on lattes... but it's not easy! 
America is far worse, I love the place but it is so easy to put on weight there. You'd have to make a concerted effort, every single day, to seek out natural foods and avoid 'dead calories'.
Btw, did you know that we are the first generation who are, in many cases, obese at the same time as being malnourished? All that food and hardly any vitamins and minerals. Unreal.


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## Honey08 (20 October 2012)

BeesKnees said:



			They sell gorgeous vets? 


.
		
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Hee hee - would have brought one back years ago if they did!! 

I have to say that when I'm dieting I don't struggle in the US.  India is my most difficult country!

Different parts of the US seem to have different attitudes to diet - in LA it is easy to do fitness and healthy eating..  Generally though, although they have the most fast food and largest portions I've ever seen, I think it is easy to eat healthily.  I think the UK is not that far behind them when it comes to junk and processed food. 

A lot of restaurants over there have calorie contents - even their salads are huge and full of calories in things like Cheesecake Factory.  But they do do diet versions now.

If you have to work at being thin and fit, its hard most places.  I always think I would be naturally thinner if I lived in South Africa - the food there is wonderful, lots of meat and wonderful veg (just have to avoid the yummy wine too!).


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## Littlelegs (20 October 2012)

The view that the horse doesn't show discomfort doesn't wash for me either. Horses put up with a lot. A few years ago my friend & I were messing about with her tiny mini. I was demonstrating my ability to stand over it with my feet on the floor, as in with a half inch gap between myself & its back. We decided it would be amusing if I stood on one leg, holding the leg closest to the camera up in an impression of riding, of course still with a gap between myself & its back. Pony chose this moment to dart off in canter, knocked my leg I was stood on, resulting in me being on its back briefly. Within a few strides I had gathered my wits back & hopped off. But certainly in those few strides pony looks rather happy & not remotely like he's struggling. Does that justify me getting on intentionally? Not at all. I'm over double the weight most people would recommend for a mini. And before anyone asks, we deleted the evidence. And I'm sure most of us have stories of horses in pain through injury, illness, ill fitting or misused tack etc that have carried on without expressing it. So the fact a horse doesn't show signs of discomfort isn't any use, by the time it does its way beyond mild pain ime.


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## flump (20 October 2012)

I recently went to Beverly hills and then on to the ritz in calafirnia. The closest thing to healthy food we ate everyday was steak!! And omg Fiji water!!! I wish theysold that here!!! It is quite unhealthy there, they had a ice cream that had peanut butter an bacon in it fgs!!! But the amount of take outs was ridiculous! We had a mcdonalds one night an the size was double what it is here and covered in salt!! I don't know how people can eat like that!! I even saw a really fat lady sat with 2 supersize burgers in Hollywood!!


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## lula (20 October 2012)

joeanne said:



			Sorry but you are kidding yourself if you think you are ok to ride that pony at that weight.
An odd half a stone might not be an issue if you rode well and were balanced, but at that weight, your riding ability will make no odds.....ultimately you are damaging your horses long term health by subjecting him to carrying that amount of weight.
His back and joints are being subjected to weights far greater than he is supposed to be carrying.
None of those pictures look "ok" to me.
		
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yup.
there seem to be a lot of these overweight threads lately. 

 As someone else, pointed out its really common sense.

if there is any doubt that the horse can carry your weight I would err on the side of caution and lose some. not that hard to do if you care about your horse and his future joint health surely?

and dressage kez, if you have to resort to personal remarks to other forum members you really have lost your argument love.


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## Cazzah (20 October 2012)

I am on a mission to not just lose weight but to change my habits longer term. I have a job that is either sat behind my desk or in my car enroute somewhere. It's busy. Fast food is rarely healthy. I weigh more than I want to or should because I have a shockingly sweet tooth and at times just need to grab 'something' between meetings. 

I also have a young child and my middle region has not recovered as I would like - to a point where I would gladly face the pain and have a tummy tuck as I am so self conscious of it  It hasn't responded fully to exercise though has improved somewhat. 

I have a beautiful close coupled TB. He's not fine (8.5" bone) and we don't look 'odd' but I want to event to a decent level (hopefully Novice by the end of next year, then who knows?). I am what I would call reasonably fit - walk a hilly XC course no issues and gallop round under the time in a two point seat without needing breathing apparatus. I have regular lessons with a trainer I respect and I have discussed my weight with him. He doesn't see it as causing a problem at the minute but agreed losing some wouldn't hurt either. 

I do get asked to ride other horses at times but have refused to do so on a few occasions as I would not feel confortable on something small or fine. 

I have changed my shopping habits - lots more fresh food and limiting the amount of processed. I have also started swimming and will ramp this up over winter. My ankle ligaments are shot so I am limited to low impact exercise but have found a pilates class starting in a few weeks locally. 

I could carry on as I am but I'm really not happy with my body and I want to do everything I can both for myself and also for my horse. 

I would expect organisers, judges or instructors to speak up if there was obviously an issue with someone causing damage to their horse, but knowing how conscious I am I would always try to be tactful. There are always 'extremes' though and I'm afraid if I saw the guy on the grey the tact may go out the window.....


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## Wagtail (20 October 2012)

BeesKnees said:



			Even the bread is sweet and clearly has sugar in it. As did the natural yogurt (why???)
		
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This is something that really bugged me when I have visited the states. I could not find bread that didn't taste sweet anywhere! Eventually, I did find a supermarket that sold various types of bread and found the only one that wasn't sweet was the Itallian one. How can they like sweet bread?  'Savoury' sandwiches taste awful!


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## Wagtail (20 October 2012)

alainax said:



			Just a tiny point on the balanced heavy riders/unbalance lighter riders...


I ride light, im overweight... but it doenst make me any less of my actuall weight on the horses back. Im still exactly what I weigh... Just gentler on the horses back than a beginner bouncing around. 

A beginner of my same weight would be more of a burden to the horse imo. 
(hence why riding schools set lower limits very often, ofc work load too)

However.. it couldnt possibly be said that I feel less than my weight to the horse, im just gentler for him. 


sooo..... imo... any rider... heavy or light... can either feel thier weight, or feel heavier. You cant possibly feel lighter. 


I guess the problem comes with the phrase " riding light" I guess your not really riding light... its more that others ride heavy...


Does that make sense? 

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Sadly, it is often not the heavy person's fault that they think they ride light and therefore don't feel as heavy as they actually are to their horse. It is OTHER PEOPLE who tell them that to make them feel better. People believe what they want to believe.


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## shep3 (20 October 2012)

The OP is hugely overweight, best for her and her poor horse to eat less, simple. There were no fatties in POW camps.


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## smokey (20 October 2012)

dressedkez said:



			Yes, that is a good point well made, but the point I am trying to make is that a a good 'heavy rider' will always ride better than a poor 'light rider'. We all have seeen those that lean on the back on the saddle, slump in the saddle and so not have a clue.....Sadly, due to my working life - I have probabaly gained about 3 stone over the past three years - but I still ride relatively light, due to past riding experience.
		
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While this may be true within the "normal" parameters of what constitutes "light"  and "heavy" , I don't think anyone is going to be foolish enough to suggest that the guy on the grey would ride lighter than a novice 12 stone rider. I don't think this should be about how balanced or experienced a rider is, after all, someone with good posture will look slimmer than someone of the same weight who is slouched, but they still weigh the same.  No matter how good that guys posture is, he's still morbidly obese. Poor pony!


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## Littlelegs (20 October 2012)

I fail to see why people with a responsibility eg judge, friend, instructor, vet etc have such an issue with saying something when a rider is too big. My child probably has a year left of being ideal for her 11.1. Then she'll probably be ok for another 2yrs of being too tall, & her riding being compromised, but ok to hack & play about. At which point I imagine she'll be too tall to even hack with jumping stirrups, although still well within ponys weight carrying capacity. She knows the day will come, hastened by the fact she's tall for her age. And she isn't looking forward to it, like lots of little kids with outgrown ponies she'll be upset. But its unfortunately a fact of life, why is weight so different? At least with weight you have a choice. I love fine 11hh ponies, but I accept I can't ride one, even if I was 5stone. Why can't 18stone plus people accept that fact too?


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## BeesKnees (20 October 2012)

Honey08 said:



			Hee hee - would have brought one back years ago if they did!! 

I have to say that when I'm dieting I don't struggle in the US.  India is my most difficult country!

Different parts of the US seem to have different attitudes to diet - in LA it is easy to do fitness and healthy eating..
		
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Yup I always put on weight in India. My husband has family there so we get FED  and it's a total yummy carb-fest. Have to make a real effort to get back on track when we come home 

What was interesting in Mexico was seeing the polarisation in the Americans as I said, and the difference in behaviour around food. The slimmer people just made completely different choices, for instance omelettes and fruit at breakfast versus the larger people who had piles of cakes and pancakes.

We also went to the gym whilst we were there, three times. Only once did I see a larger person in there.

Going to the gym on holiday might seem bonkers (judging by the looks we got from some other people there they clearly thought so!) We didn't want to go particularly, but were so glad we had when we got back and found out yet another family member (overweight with high blood pressure) had died from a massive stroke. He was 54


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## ae76williams (20 October 2012)

dressedkez said:



			There are heavy riders and those who ride light - a heavy person can ride light (if in balance with the horse) and light rider can ride heavy if not........
		
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True, but even so there is a limit.

Funny isn't it, how certain people think it's perfectly ok to insult overweight people on the street, but in cases like the guy on the grey, where the welfare of a horse is at stake, so-called animal lovers won't speak up.


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## Wagtail (20 October 2012)

I think the world has gone PC crazy. Some morbidly obese people are so wrapped up with what they see as a fattist society that they believe it is their right to do everything a thin person can. Of course that is true, until an innocent animal is involved. I blame the fact that other people are too afraid to tell them straight. How many times do we read (on that other forum) that their vet, physio, and instructor, all say they are fine riding the horse, when it is obvious to most people that they are not!. Either they are making it up or these people are lying to them, or are completely incompetent and only interested in lining their own pockets.


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## Littlelegs (20 October 2012)

Exactly Wagtail. It's like its considered 'fattist' to say someone who can't fit in a single plane seat should buy two. But if you're tall, its simply squash yourself in or pay for leg space.


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## Flame_ (20 October 2012)

littlelegs said:



			I fail to see why people with a responsibility eg judge, friend, instructor, vet etc have such an issue with saying something when a rider is too big. My child probably has a year left of being ideal for her 11.1. Then she'll probably be ok for another 2yrs of being too tall, & her riding being compromised, but ok to hack & play about. At which point I imagine she'll be too tall to even hack with jumping stirrups, although still well within ponys weight carrying capacity. She knows the day will come, hastened by the fact she's tall for her age. And she isn't looking forward to it, like lots of little kids with outgrown ponies she'll be upset. But its unfortunately a fact of life, why is weight so different? At least with weight you have a choice. I love fine 11hh ponies, but I accept I can't ride one, even if I was 5stone. Why can't 18stone plus people accept that fact too?
		
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But your child has the fairly uncomplicated option of moving up to a larger horse. Very heavy people have a big (sorry) task trying to a) find and b) afford the size of horse they really need or they are faced with the prospect of not riding at all.


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## EllieandGeorge (20 October 2012)

The photograph of the man on the grey is just horrific! So sad to be putting the horse through that.  
***IMO*** you look too heavy to be riding them horses too.


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## skint1 (20 October 2012)

I worry that I am too fat for my loan horse, though she doesn't seem to suffer and gladly trots/canters uphill and can put in a heck of a gallop when she wants to as well  

When she was offered to me, I spent ages stressing about my size, even though I've lost nearly 4 stone now I still know I am not a small thing, but her owners and my other friends told me to stop worrying (I drove them a bit mental I think). 

I do hope that someone would say something if they thought I was too big, I love her to bits and would be devastated if I were hurting her.  I am also a very novice rider. I try to be balanced, I don't know whether I am or not, I do a rising trot and a half seat when cantering so I am not bouncing on her spine. 

I've been afraid to post a photo, but I will.





Since this photo I have lost a further half stone.


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## Wagtail (20 October 2012)

skint1 said:



			I worry that I am too fat for my loan horse, though she doesn't seem to suffer and gladly trots/canters uphill and can put in a heck of a gallop when she wants to as well  

When she was offered to me, I spent ages stressing about my size, even though I've lost nearly 4 stone now I still know I am not a small thing, but her owners and my other friends told me to stop worrying (I drove them a bit mental I think). 

I do hope that someone would say something if they thought I was too big, I love her to bits and would be devastated if I were hurting her.  I am also a very novice rider. I try to be balanced, I don't know whether I am or not, I do a rising trot and a half seat when cantering so I am not bouncing on her spine. 

I've been afraid to post a photo, but I will.
http://s868.photobucket.com/albums/ab248/jmasone/?action=view&current=maggie1.jpg
Since this photo I have lost a further half stone.
		
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No, I don't think you are too heavy. Yes, you could do with losing more weight for your own health reasons but you do not look to be very tall and so are probably fine for a chunky mare like yours. I would be a little concerned about HER weight though! She looks as though she is probably carrying the equivalent extra weight of another one of you. If you could trim her down a little, it would help her a great deal.


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## Littlelegs (20 October 2012)

I don't see it is that different flame. Not all too heavy riders are 18stone plus. It could be someone of 14stone on a too small horse, or 12stone even. And sorry, but tough luck if you are of a size few horses can carry you comfortably. I've certainly seen riders who are probably around the size 14 range who are too heavy for their choice of mount. And its not mentioned in the way a too tall child is for fear of upsetting the rider about their weight. (and I don't mean size 14 is too big to ride, but eg on a small, elderly fine pony type with zero muscle it is. Interestingly the same show I saw this go unchallenged, I heard loads of comments about a too tall child. Yes, child distinctly too tall, but in no way too heavy).


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## indie999 (20 October 2012)

Wagtail said:



			No, I don't think you are too heavy. Yes, you could do with losing more weight for your own health reasons but you do not look to be very tall and so are probably fine for a chunky mare like yours. I would be a little concerned about HER weight though! She looks as though she is probably carrying the equivalent extra weight of another one of you. If you could trim her down a little, it would help her a great deal.
		
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I think you look ok as you are clearly not tall and your legs are ok on your horse who is nice all rounder height. You also are not big around the middle(You have a waist..not a sack). I absolutely agree with the above remarks and was thinking the same. Horse needs to get rid of belly(for her joints), its not dire but could easily be tweaked. Yours is arms and legs and with some more riding you both can do it easily. Couple of hours hack will do that for you both twice week at least. Nice horse nice pic good luck.Sorted.


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## QueenOfCadence (20 October 2012)

Sorry OP but I do think you're far too large for either horse, but not nearly as bad as the man on the grey... But still unsuitable

I'm still young so I can't comment on the dieting side of things as I've been blessed with the super fast metabolism of a teenager , but I do think that equestrians should view themselves as sportsmen/women and treat their bodies as such. It's not healthy for you to be that weight and it's not healthy for your horse to have to carry you around


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## skint1 (20 October 2012)

Thank you!
We are trying to slim her down in the same way I am slimming (more exercise/restricted grazing), she has lost a bit since then too ( think this photo is from early Sept) so hopefully we will emerge in the spring as an overall more svelte pair.


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## FfionWinnie (20 October 2012)

indie999 said:



			I think you look ok as you are clearly not tall and your legs are ok on your horse who is nice all rounder height. You also are not big around the middle(You have a waist..not a sack). I absolutely agree with the above remarks and was thinking the same. Horse needs to get rid of belly(for her joints), its not dire but could easily be tweaked. Yours is arms and legs and with some more riding you both can do it easily. Couple of hours hack will do that for you both twice week at least. Nice horse nice pic good luck.Sorted.
		
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Completely agree. Well done on your weightloss as well skint.


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## shadowboy (20 October 2012)

When I'm allowed to finally release my parents research I can show you 13 years  and £3million of research of weight and effect on horses. Currently as it has not been published or peer reviewed yet I can't show you the mountains of results but what I can say is horses who carried 30% of their fit body weight have had joint and lameness issues. 4 horses were subjected to this over the 13 years ( yes I know there may be some moral issues of such research) only 1 horse is still sound. The others have now gone into well cared for retirement. Those carrying 25% of their fit body weight have seen some issues but these appeared recoverable such as increased heart rate during exercise and required more frequent back treatments due to stiffness etc. of the 4 horses who carried 20% body weight all are sound (now aged 17) and only 1 experienced lameness during the 13 year research. Heart rates were never raised higher than the 4 control horses during activity. I have learned from this that a rider and tack should ideally not weigh more than 20% of their horses body weight. At a guess I recon the OP's horse weighs 600kg so that gives 120kg including tack but obviously common sense determines that opt conformation should ALWAYS be taken into account!


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## TrasaM (20 October 2012)

When to speak up? I find this a bit of a problem. I recently watched someone ride her horse really badly. Badly as in kicking legs and sawing and pulling on it's mouth. The poor horse didn't know which direction to go. Legs saying go forward reins saying stop! I got so cross about it as she also put a really tight flash band on so it could not escape her hands. Shed commented beforehand that she was not good enough for him and boy was she right about that. I commented to someone that if they ever day me ride like that to pull me off and slap me hard! Sadly I have a tendency to boil over amd did comment about it to the RI later only to find that she was the instructor of said rider. Foot in mouth moment as I worded it badly as in "what idiot is teaching this person to ride" not what I meant but it's what she heard I think. Can't take it back as I believe I was right in my observation and trying to explain further only meant I dug an even deeper hole. The poor grey looks like it's going to collapse under that man so Id like to believe that I would speak out. Like the rider I commented on, I suspect that they are aware of their respective problems but carry on regardless. In my book respect for the horse must be the first consideration.


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## skint1 (20 October 2012)

littlelegs said:



			I don't see it is that different flame. Not all too heavy riders are 18stone plus. It could be someone of 14stone on a too small horse, or 12stone even. And sorry, but tough luck if you are of a size few horses can carry you comfortably. I've certainly seen riders who are probably around the size 14 range who are too heavy for their choice of mount. And its not mentioned in the way a too tall child is for fear of upsetting the rider about their weight. (and I don't mean size 14 is too big to ride, but eg on a small, elderly fine pony type with zero muscle it is. Interestingly the same show I saw this go unchallenged, I heard loads of comments about a too tall child. Yes, child distinctly too tall, but in no way too heavy).
		
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My daughter rode (and competed) her 13.1 section b gelding til she was 18, she was about 5ft6 weighed about 7 stone at the time so yes she was too tall for him, he is a little powerhouse and was fit as a fiddle though but she did get comments about being too tall for him every time they went out. She still hacks him out now and then but no longer jumps or competes with him.


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## skint1 (20 October 2012)

shadowboy said:



			When I'm allowed to finally release my parents research I can show you 13 years  and £3million of research of weight and effect on horses. Currently as it has not been published or peer reviewed yet I can't show you the mountains of results but what I can say is horses who carried 30% of their fit body weight have had joint and lameness issues. 4 horses were subjected to this over the 13 years ( yes I know there may be some moral issues of such research) only 1 horse is still sound. The others have now gone into well cared for retirement. Those carrying 25% of their fit body weight have seen some issues but these appeared recoverable such as increased heart rate during exercise and required more frequent back treatments due to stiffness etc. of the 4 horses who carried 20% body weight all are sound (now aged 17) and only 1 experienced lameness during the 13 year research. Heart rates were never raised higher than the 4 control horses during activity. I have learned from this that a rider and tack should ideally not weigh more than 20% of their horses body weight. At a guess I recon the OP's horse weighs 600kg so that gives 120kg including tack but obviously common sense determines that opt conformation should ALWAYS be taken into account!
		
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This is interesting, I would certainly find it good reading (well, the abstract and graphs anyway, my eyes get all crossed when I try and read heavy academic papers  )


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## Littlelegs (20 October 2012)

Exactly what I'm getting at skint, people were quite happy to comment on your daughter, but I bet the same people wouldn't be as forthcoming on weight, despite the fact your daughter was fine. And I too think you look fine in the pic & well done with the weight loss.


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## FairyLights (20 October 2012)

Cruelty! the fat man is way too heavy for that horse and the fat woman on the bay in the first pic is too heavy for her horse. Poor poor horses.


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## Cinnamontoast (20 October 2012)

BeesKnees said:



			We got talking with an American couple (not overweight), who talked about how hard it is to get healthy and fresh food and how everything comes in a super sized portion.
		
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It's choice, tho, not being unable to find decent food. I've managed to drop weight on holiday in America because we had a brilliant supermarket nearby, amazing fresh produce and we self catered.



Honey08 said:



			I go to the states a lot, and while there is a lot of junk food, it is really easy to eat healthily too.  I go to their supermarkets and there is loads of gorgeous fruit and vet, lean meat, fat free products..  Its just _easier_ to eat junk.
		
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Defo, like I said, choices need to be made.



Flame_ said:



			But your child has the fairly uncomplicated option of moving up to a larger horse. Very heavy people have a big (sorry) task trying to a) find and b) afford the size of horse they really need or they are faced with the prospect of not riding at all.
		
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Then don't ride and drop weight if you really do want to ride. It is a straightforward equation, stop shoving crap in your mouth, move more. I say this as someone who dropped 8 stones and now I'm having to do it again because I'm an idiot. So many people bang on about metabolism etc. The vast majority of people have an average metabolic rate and need to open their eyes to how much rubbish they're actually consuming.


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## kerilli (20 October 2012)

littlelegs said:



			Exactly Wagtail. It's like its considered 'fattist' to say someone who can't fit in a single plane seat should buy two. But if you're tall, its simply squash yourself in or pay for leg space.
		
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Is it considered fattist? But that's common sense! PC gone mad, then. If someone won't fit in 1 seat, they buy two. One of my relatives always used to pay for two seats on a plane back in the '60s-'70s onwards... she wasn't comfortable in 1 seat so she happily booked and paid for two. She certainly didn't expect the airline to make allowances for her!
I've got long legs, maybe I should expect all airlines to leave bigger spaces between their rows, just for people like me...  

I wonder if this prevailing attitude actually encourages people to be lax about their weight, since no blame is apportioned, it is regarded as an affliction rather than a choice (or rather a million choices, one after the other...)     

cinammon toast, I agree. and your username is just _cruelty_, btw...


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## Wagtail (20 October 2012)

Metabolism is an interesting thing. It is well known that the more you exercise, the higher your metabolism gets. So that just sitting still as a fit active person, burns more calories than an unfit inactive person. It is also said that as you age you put on weight easier. Could this be that your metabolism has slowed down because you have slowed down and are less active than when younger? I think so. 

However, it is easier to lose weight when you are hugely overweight than when you are only a little overweight. This is because it takes more calories to maintain such a huge body than it does a smaller one. So this is also why weight loss slows down the closer you get to your goal.


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## skint1 (20 October 2012)

That is so true! It's irritating as well because after the first 2-3 stone come off so quickly, then it slows down just when you could do with a bit of a push!  I'm hoping the mucking out this winter will help!


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## Cinnamontoast (20 October 2012)

kerilli said:



			cinnamon  toast, I agree. and your username is just _cruelty_, btw...  

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Sorry , it was my cat!


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## Cortez (20 October 2012)

Skint1, firstly very well done on losing all that weight and keep up the good work, it'll sooo be worth it. Your mare looks like a good weight carrying sort that should be up to carrying a heavier rider when fit and not so tubby herself, however just saying you "look" OK on her is typical of the trap we all fall into - how much do you actually weigh in that picture? How tall is the mare?


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## skint1 (20 October 2012)

I am 5ft7, the mare is 16.3 and I weigh there about 15.7st


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## Rollin (20 October 2012)

On the subject of losing weight.  My husband has always had a problem with his weight and done every diet you can think of.  Weight off, weight on!!

Then he retired and now spends most of the year in France.  He has lots three stone in 2 years on three meals a day inc. three/four courses at lunch time with wine.


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## meesha (20 October 2012)

I knew it !!!!!!!! no work and wine is the answer !!!!!!!!! yehhhhhhhh

..... and dont come back saying its because of eating more healthily, having the time to prepare proper freshly cooked meals and eat them sitting down rather than on the go - dont burst my bubble I will focus on the wine !!! (dashes off to kitchen to see what is in the wine rack)


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## Big Ben (20 October 2012)

Good morning people, just dropping back into the thread to prove I haven't been chased away, but have been sleeping.

Thanks to everyone who has contributed their thoughts, especially those who have stayed on topic and been polite. Those who choose to be rude, I choose not to listen to you, those who have offered constructive ideas and suggestions thank you, I appreciate you taking the time and the trouble to actually try and help. So easy to sit behind a keyboard and type the "OMG you are squashing your horse remarks", but it really helps nothing.

No I don't have a poor metabolism, I have a great one, designed to make the most of every calorie it is fed.

What am I fighting against, nothing insurmountable, no excuses, just facts, a year of limited mobility with the knee issue, now resolved (as much as it is going to be) going through the mentalpause, seems to have made a lot of things work differently. The food over here, well yes there is the issue of sugar in most things, and also the more contentious one of growth hormones in most of the meat, not sure how much research has been done, but I do wonder.

I fight the portion sizes out here, and also I am fighting with being a failure, 

Feb 2008 I quit smoking, and added several pounds to the burden I was already carrying.
Feb 2009 I went on a diet and over the next 18 months I lost 140 pounds, and felt great, although that woman was strange to me.

and now I have put a whole bunch of that back on, *sigh* I do struggle with moderation, smoke, don't smoke, easy, severe diet, kind of easy, living on a normal diet, struggles BIG time.

BUT, I am back and trying again, and for me and the horses I will succeed. 

Oh, and no none of these guys are young.

Ben is 10, Emmy is 8, Wills is 6, and then there is little Angel at 14 months.


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## Big Ben (20 October 2012)

meesha said:



			I knew it !!!!!!!! no work and wine is the answer !!!!!!!!! yehhhhhhhh
		
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Wine, mmmmmm just when I have gone teetotal again!


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## Cinnamontoast (20 October 2012)

meesha said:



			I knew it !!!!!!!! no work and wine is the answer !!!!!!!!! yehhhhhhhh
		
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I wish, I'd be sorted!



Big Ben said:



			Thanks to everyone who has contributed their thoughts, especially those who have stayed on topic and been polite. Those who choose to be rude, I choose not to listen to you, those who have offered constructive ideas and suggestions thank you, I appreciate you taking the time and the trouble to actually try and help. So easy to sit behind a keyboard and type the "OMG you are squashing your horse remarks", but it really helps nothing.

BUT, I am back and trying again, and for me and the horses I will succeed
		
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I don't see where anyone has been rude or used nasty terms/words. You put this on a public forum, you can only expect some honest opinions, which you have got. The have been many comments about how long backed your horse is and this does lead to weakness through the back. Imagine snapping a long stick-it would snap near the centre. 

I haven't ridden my short coupled weight carrier cob since April because of my weight: I found him nice sharers and did groundwork. Who am I to decide to ride because I physically can? I don't believe he should carry more than a certain weight, as advised by my vet. When I lose the weight and he's sound, I'll get back on for short periods. I would say for me to get on now would be abuse of his nice nature and his back. I would thoroughly expect people to be horrified were I to get on him now. 

Do as you like with your horse, but don't expect people to laud your actions when they believe them to be wrong. Think about riding school limits and why they have them.


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## Rollin (20 October 2012)

meesha said:



			I knew it !!!!!!!! no work and wine is the answer !!!!!!!!! yehhhhhhhh

..... and dont come back saying its because of eating more healthily, having the time to prepare proper freshly cooked meals and eat them sitting down rather than on the go - dont burst my bubble I will focus on the wine !!! (dashes off to kitchen to see what is in the wine rack)
		
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I won't burst your bubble!!!  We eat everything red meat, butter, pate en croute, dessert.  We don't do low fat or zero carb.  But we do front load our eating i.e. breakfast and a good lunch then a very light early supper - tonight soup with extra beans, perhaps a sandwich - I don't buy processed food if I need pasta sauce I make it.  French people eat lunch rather than dinner.

Small portions especially of meat.

I listened to a Radio Four Case Notes programme in which they described a clinical trial in the USA.  Two groups were trying to lose weight, one group were given breakfast with no further restrictions on their eating - they lost the most weight.


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## Wagtail (20 October 2012)

cinnamontoast said:



			I don't see where anyone has been rude or used nasty terms/words. You put this on a public forum, you can only expect some honest opinions, which you have got. The have been many comments about how long backed your horse is and this does lead to weakness through the back. Imagine snapping a long stick-it would snap near the centre. 

I haven't ridden my short coupled weight carrier cob since April because of my weight: I found him nice sharers and did groundwork. Who am I to decide to ride because I physically can? I don't believe he should carry more than a certain weight, as advised by my vet. When I lose the weight and he's sound, I'll get back on for short periods. I would say for me to get on now would be abuse of his nice nature and his back. I would thoroughly expect people to be horrified were I to get on him now. 

Do as you like with your horse, but don't expect people to laud your actions when they believe them to be wrong. Think about riding school limits and why they have them.
		
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This ^^

Big Ben, I don't see anyone saying 'OMG! You are squashing your horse.' as you stated. 

You posted up a side view of your horse on another thread and asked the question, 'does he look like he would struggle?' I took time to look at his conformation. He is back at the knee, slightly sickle hocked and as others have said over and over, long backed. He may be a big boy but due to his conformational faults he is less able to carry the recommended maximum weight of 20% of his ideal weight. But you completely ignore this advice. Others have said that they too struggle with their weight, but do not choose to ride when they are too heavy. They put their horses before their own pleasure. It seems you are going to carry on riding regardless, unless I have got you wrong?


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## Shysmum (20 October 2012)

^^^ THIS.

It seems that OP just wants to try and justify herself, and get others telling her she is fine to ride her horse, and that makes me sad. Yes, she is too heavy for that horse's confirmation, and no she should not be riding it. I am an RDA Instructor, and I can tell you that the OP is way over the limit for riding even the biggest horse we have (even riders doing dressage comps). Why ? because the horse must not be asked to do more than it is physically capable of, because somewhere along the line it will break.


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## FfionWinnie (20 October 2012)

As an aside I hadn't heard of online dressage competitions, great idea tho. Can you post a vid please?


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## indie999 (20 October 2012)

shysmum said:



			^^^ THIS.

It seems that OP just wants to try and justify herself, and get others telling her she is fine to ride her horse, and that makes me sad. Yes, she is too heavy for that horse's confirmation, and no she should not be riding it. I am an RDA Instructor, and I can tell you that the OP is way over the limit for riding even the biggest horse we have (even riders doing dressage comps). Why ? because the horse must not be asked to do more than it is physically capable of, because somewhere along the line it will break.
		
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Yep agree as I may have said squash horse and you do even if you find that rude, truth hurts but hey as long as you tried to give up being big it doesnt give you the right to squash an animal as that is what you are doing. Please just eat less. Less in more effort and it will work. Dont give the metabolism is slow excuse. Too many justifications and excuses for being large. If you were on a Clydesdale, Shire or Breton horse you would be fine. Unfortunately surrounded by yes people isnt really helping your horse.  In my line of work I know you will have definitely been given weight loss advice but we cant make you take it. Being heavy slows you down, and slows your horse too. Pure common sense. It would be great if in 6 months time that you could post a fantastic result picture. Good luck, try harder. The old saying a moment in the mouth, month on the hips is true.


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## Big Ben (20 October 2012)

shysmum said:



			^^^ THIS.

It seems that OP just wants to try and justify herself, and get others telling her she is fine to ride her horse, and that makes me sad. Yes, she is too heavy for that horse's confirmation, and no she should not be riding it.
		
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No not looking for justification, the thread is about when you speak out and who would speak out, and I have already thanked everyone for their opinion, just I have bigger thanks for those who can express their views on a straight forward manner, like you have. 

Again, with Big Ben, some here are horrified that I ride him, some are on the fence, some are OK. The people in real life here are OK, and I am OK in what I am asking him to do at present, which is relatively little, I want to do far more, and I am working to get to a stage where I can.

I have cherry picked a few comments to follow up, but again, thanks to everyone who has contributed.





Brigadoon said:



			Lets be frank,the majority of overweight people eat too much and exercise too little. No one is forcing us to eat so many calories.... our horses certainly aren't. We all have a duty of care to our animals. Your handsome black horse looks very well looked after but sadly you are too heavy for him at present. A month of strict dieting and perhaps swimming ( since you have knee probs) would make a wealth of difference to your lad's life. Imagine by Christmas you could be wearing a size smaller breeches and knowing, if you kept it up, come spring you would be hopping on and off your other horse with ease as well.
		
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This whole post is awesome, I have shortened it, but THANK YOU Brigadoon, this is the kind of feedback that actually inspires a person to try and change, and make improvements. No punches pulled, but no offence is or should be taken



indie999 said:



			Absolutely what I was getting at. If the OP has had an op on her knee (i think thats what she said) she would have been told to lose weight. She should try to lose it before squashing her horse, but I think she could do that quite easily. Unfortunately people make money out of horses so their welfare isnt always important, as long as the human is having a nice time. I watched a very good instructor give a lame horse a lesson who was clearly lame(it was). Money. It is quite obvious big things squash little things. .
		
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You see I don't believe I am squashing him, and yes I have had an OP, and no I wasn't told to lose weight, we did discuss it, and yes I know I need to, but the surgeons words, "There is far more to weight loss than the medical profession currently understands" which was a strange thing to hear.



Cortez said:



			OP, your horse is a grand big fella, but he is long and weak in the back; if I was you I would not be riding this horse, nor the other mare either, until I had lost the weight and put considerably more muscle over my horses loin.
		
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Factual, to the point, honest and absolutely great feed back.



Wagtail said:



			OP, I have told you before that I think you are too heavy for your boy due to his conformational faults that I outlined in a previous thread, but you ignored. As for your mare, what were you thinking? She is a beautiful fine boned animal...
		
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What was I thinking, well I took her over to my trainer for an assessment, I wasn't sure I was going to ride, because I was doubtful about her carrying me, but the trainer said she would be fine. That was though the one and only time that I have been on her, because I don't think it is fine at all, 



EllieandGeorge said:



			The photograph of the man on the grey is just horrific! So sad to be putting the horse through that.  
***IMO*** you look too heavy to be riding them horses too.
		
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Brief and to the point, but honest.


So no not looking for anything other than the original question, when do you speak up, and who should speak up.


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## 1life (20 October 2012)

dressedkez said:



			There are heavy riders and those who ride light - a heavy person can ride light (if in balance with the horse) and light rider can ride heavy if not........
		
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I'm sorry but I get a bit fed up with hearing this. I understand the reasoning behind it, I know riders who are a good riding weight can still be unbalanced and not have independent seats etc BUT, you cannot ride lighter than you actually are! You cannot stand on scales in a balanced position, carrying yourself well and magically make yourself lighter.
If you are too heavy for the type of horse you are wanting to ride then your way of riding cannot suddenly make it okay for a horse to have to carry you - you will do damage, maybe not immediately visible damage but certainly strain, soreness etc.
And yes, in my opinion, the OP is too large for the type of horse she is choosing to ride.


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## Big Ben (20 October 2012)

FfionWinnie said:



			As an aside I hadn't heard of online dressage competitions, great idea tho. Can you post a vid please?
		
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Can't find one of me on the site, and not brave enough to link to my own account, but here is a friend and her stud doing a video test.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RUc-GySoVbE


It is recorded, goes off for marking and then we get the marks later. It means that we have all sorts of judges marking us, rather than the very very small pool of judges that you can find for dressage in Saskatchewan


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## Silent Knight (20 October 2012)

This subject has been done to death and the facts don't change. To overload a horse is abuse!

Most people don't want confrontation, so they say nothing.
 It doesn't alter the fact that a person is too heavy to ride a certain horse, nor does it mean that they agree with it.

It shouldn't be up to other people to tell someone that they are fat. A look at photographs like you have posted makes the situation quite clear.

The problem is fat people in denial who take offence when the truth is told.
A love of horse riding should be a motivation to lose weight or keep weight to a health level.

Obese riders will always ride heavy, because they are.


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## The_snoopster (20 October 2012)

Rose Folly said:



			It's a really difficult question. That huge guy on the little grey Araby horse looked appalling. But throughout the ages, in the Uk and Europe, it was common for ladies, children to ride pillion. So you put up your 11 stone man, with his 9 stone wife riding pillion, and you probably have a greater weight than the big guy in the pic. And horses coped with it. As has been pointed out in other threads, Highland ponies bring down the stags off the hill - probably 16 stone+. The Dales ponies were bred to carry lead from the mines at Alston, high on the Northumberland fells, down to the docks at Newcastle. They carried two paniers with 8 stone of lead in each pannier; I believe the distance is about 29 miles, and they were capable of trotting a lot of the way.

I don't think it helps to speak out unless you have  very definite proof that the horse is suffering - not just because you think it doesn't look dainty. 

He also looks totally unbalanced, whereas OP looks fine on her horse. The point about being heavy/riding light and being light/riding heavy is a very valid point.
		
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Yes we all know what horse/ponies used to have to carry back in the day before the engine was invented, but how long did they last for. No wonder horses were considered past it and aged by the age of 12, all I can say is thankgod for the engine.
And yes I would tell someone they were too heavy to ride a particular horse, if a poster needs to question other posters so much about her weight has this poster does then maybe she has answered her own question about wether she should ride her horses or not due to being over weight.
I have recently started a diet as I have put 1 1/2 stone on since I bought my horse many years ago, but now she is in her 20,s I feel it only fair to lose the fat and keep my horse happy.


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## ImmyS (20 October 2012)

Basically the moral of the story/thread is people should not be overweight full stop, then all these pointless, needless debates wouldn't be dragged up time and time again. Am I wrong?


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## Pedantic (20 October 2012)

Don't go with the "ride light" thing, 20 stone on the back of a horse not big enough to carry it is still 20 stone, the only difference is one 20 stone person will ride better and bounce around less than another bouncing around causing more suffering, but 20 stone is 20 stone no matter what you do with it, the riding light thing is just an excuse to make it sound better.

Anyone blatantly too heavy for the steed is inflicting animal abuse.

If your overweight get a bigger stronger horse, not complicated,


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## indie999 (20 October 2012)

You see I don't believe I am squashing him, and yes I have had an OP, and no I wasn't told to lose weight, we did discuss it, and yes I know I need to, but the surgeons words, "There is far more to weight loss than the medical profession currently understands" which was a strange thing to hear.

Ah what your surgeon is saying is that it is in your mind too...not just physical or metabolic as a lot of people suggest, metabolism does slow down as we get older and we have to work harder. We have all heard of "comfort eating", its in your mind. Now you tell me what happens during famine ie Ethiopia..lack of food/skinny. Now tell me about Anorexia?? food but a squew on body image etc/got rid off vomit, skinny.  I am trying to demonstrate we doctors do know what food can do and without what it does. But he did discuss weight loss with you and you took his interpretation as he could not understand why yours hadnt worked. He probably in reality had not got a couple of hours to counsel you. He is a surgeon and wants to fix your immediate issue your knee? But am not being horrid to you by the way, you do realise you have a problem and if you work a bit harder at it no problem, just keep at it and then you wouldnt have to post what was posted originally. As I say be good to see you in six months time.Thats the challenge! Good luck your horse will last longer and so will you.


Factual, to the point, honest and absolutely great feed back.



What was I thinking, well I took her over to my trainer for an assessment, I wasn't sure I was going to ride, because I was doubtful about her carrying me, but the trainer said she would be fine. That was though the one and only time that I have been on her, because I don't think it is fine at all, 

Ah but who is paying the trainer.........money.


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## rhino (20 October 2012)

FfionWinnie said:



			As an aside I hadn't heard of online dressage competitions, great idea tho. Can you post a vid please?
		
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Have a look at 
http://www.interdressage.com/
http://www.dressageanywhere.com/

I hate the waiting about at competitions, and there is a huge lack of dressage comps in the area, unaff or BD, and especially at anything above Nov/Ele, so I really like them 



ImmyS said:



			Basically the moral of the story/thread is people should not be overweight full stop, then all these pointless, needless debates wouldn't be dragged up time and time again. Am I wrong?
		
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Obviously not everyone finds them pointless and needless, they usually end up being quite 'hot' topics  . It was fairly clear it was a thread about weight and riding so you feel them to be so pointless you don't need to open them 

I don't think anyone has a problem with overweight riders, unless they are mounted on totally unsuitable horses. It's the same argument for someone of 18 stone on a tb or someone of 7 stone on a miniature, it's not just about the weight...


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## Littlelegs (20 October 2012)

I find it questionable op that your trainer okayed you riding the mare. And even if he is deluded, rather than just seeing £££ signs, do you do everything he says? If he said to ride a lame horse, or sock it in the mouth would you blindly agree? Because ultimately its your decision, & I think from your posts you know yourself that riding the mare is not fair at all, regardless of what any trainer says.


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## meesha (20 October 2012)

I think it its relevant that you are only riding for 30 mins at a time (I am sure that is what you said) and not doing anything too taxing.  I am not saying that your horse isnt struggling - he must be feeling the extra weight - (if I pick up something heavier than I can easily carry I feel it !) I am refering to the first picture - the horse in the second I wouldnt want to see more than about 13 stone on.

you know you need to lose weight (I know I need to lose weight) and if you stick at it you will lose weight - why not start hacking out - walk horse out for 20mins in hand and then ride back or vice versa - it may also help if you can get someone lighter to get your horse up to full fitness so that when you are riding he/she finds it easier to cope.

Maybe utilise lunging and loose schooling as well to build fitness/topline in horse.

you are very brave posting - good luck with the weight battle - I find that just by asking myself "do I really want to eat that fat/sugar?" it helps, its my choice and its just re-educating yourself to make the right choices - I have lost one stone but have another 2 to go and yes i do feel that my horse is going better for me losing weight - I am also more balanced (less gut wobbling about) but have a way to go.


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## ImmyS (20 October 2012)

rhino said:



			Have a look at 
http://www.interdressage.com/
http://www.dressageanywhere.com/

I hate the waiting about at competitions, and there is a huge lack of dressage comps in the area, unaff or BD, and especially at anything above Nov/Ele, so I really like them 



Obviously not everyone finds them pointless and needless, they usually end up being quite 'hot' topics  . It was fairly clear it was a thread about weight and riding so you feel them to be so pointless you don't need to open them 

I don't think anyone has a problem with overweight riders, unless they are mounted on totally unsuitable horses. It's the same argument for someone of 18 stone on a tb or someone of 7 stone on a miniature, it's not just about the weight...
		
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i mean that they are pointless in that if people all weighed what they should, things like this wouldn't even need to be discussed. Obviously even if everyone was a healthy weight there would be other variables e.g. height that would effect what horses we could/could not ride, however there is no excuse for obesity.


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## Littlelegs (20 October 2012)

Actually immys, I disagree. There's no excuse for riding a horse that can't carry you comfortably. And plenty of obese people who simply need to exert will power. But like anorexia, for some it can be a mental illness with physical symptoms. Although I do think for the vast majority, its neither medical or mental problems, & something that can be overcome.


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## devonlass (20 October 2012)

Pedantic said:



			If your overweight get a bigger stronger horse, not complicated,
		
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Or stop riding until have lost weight??

It always amazes me that the most obvious and simple answer to the problem get's ignored.

People will change their horse,their tack,their riding activities and still spend most of their time berating and second guessing themselves,but they won't change their eating and exercise habits,it's mind boggling when you think about it


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## ImmyS (20 October 2012)

littlelegs said:



			Actually immys, I disagree. There's no excuse for riding a horse that can't carry you comfortably. And plenty of obese people who simply need to exert will power. But like anorexia, for some it can be a mental illness with physical symptoms. Although I do think for the vast majority, its neither medical or mental problems, & something that can be overcome.
		
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Then get help with it, in my opinion there are far too many overweight people who do nothing about it. It's fustrating when people call obesity a disease, it is not a disease, it is self inflicted. People are too careful around the subject. If you don't want to hear that you are over weight or in this case too heavy for your horse, do not get over weight in the first place, no one makes people put rubbish inside them.


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## s4sugar (20 October 2012)

ImmyS said:



			i mean that they are pointless in that if people all weighed what they should, things like this wouldn't even need to be discussed. Obviously even if everyone was a healthy weight there would be other variables e.g. height that would effect what horses we could/could not ride, however there is no excuse for obesity.
		
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Maybe no excuse but sometimes there are reasons....However as someone who has not been below 12 stone as an adult and once attended an Olympic trial (many years ago) not everyone is naturally a size 10. My weight when fit is around 13 stones. After a series of illnesses and steroids I'm usually closer to 15 than 13 stones but I chose my horses to carry this weight easily.
 I would not get on a spindly, unfit, long backed horse. I might ride a fit, well conformed Arab or a fit native like a Fell or Highland or perhaps an overheight Connie but not the horses pictured at the top of this thread and I learned how to fit saddles so I can be certain that my weight is distributed correctly.
BTW I love Thoroughbreds but struggle to mount a tall horse from the ground so now have chunky polo bred Quarter horses or crosses.


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## joeanne (20 October 2012)

I honestly cannot see anywhere that anyone has been rude.
I have seen people (myself included) say its the belief you are currently too heavy to ride the horse you have, but that is certainly not rude.
Since quitting smoking I too put on a whole bunch of weight. I lost it (and continue to do so) by eating sensible amounts of food.
If you cook food from scratch, you can control the amount of sugars in that food.
Its only processed foods that tend to be full of sugar, so avoid them.
Its possible to lose weight, but you have to change your attitude to food....eat to live, not live to eat.


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## devonlass (20 October 2012)

littlelegs said:



			Actually immys, I disagree. There's no excuse for riding a horse that can't carry you comfortably. And plenty of obese people who simply need to exert will power.
		
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I totally agree with this.I have heard so many arguments about 'food addiction',and have to say think most of it is nonsense.

There ARE people who have serious issues with food of course,and in those cases it probably is tied in with other mental health problems,and a bad relationship with food is probably a symptom rather than a cause.

For the majority of people though it is simply lack of will power and being weak willed with abstaining from something pleasurable.
I have struggled with weight most of my adult life.I have never been massively overweight,but my weight fluctuates a lot and I do find it difficult to maintain a healthy weight without quite a lot of effort.However the reason for this is quite simple,I enjoy my food,I eat 'nice' foods that are high in fat and calories and I eat more than what i need and I don't always do enough exercise to combat it.
It's not rocket science,I am greedy and often lack the willpower to deny myself something I enjoy.
Or I should say I DID do that,not any more so much.As mentioned before I decided some time ago to change my lifestyle,and it worked!!

No magical secret,I cut down on portion size and snacking,tried alternative foods to the high fat ones where poss (I don't go mad with this as feel cutting all the nice stuff out would be setting myself up to fail) and exercised more,mainly cycling as a means of transport (I even 'walk' the dog on the bike lol) as meant I didn't have to find extra time to fit it in.

Most peoples weight problems stem form a very simple cause,they consume more than they need.We just kid ourselves that it's more complicated so we can justify it and then not have to face it and tackle it.IMO and experience anyway.


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## Big Ben (20 October 2012)

indie999 said:



			You see I don't believe I am squashing him, and yes I have had an OP, and no I wasn't told to lose weight, we did discuss it, and yes I know I need to, but the surgeons words, "There is far more to weight loss than the medical profession currently understands" which was a strange thing to hear.

Ah what your surgeon is saying is that it is in your mind too...not just physical or metabolic as a lot of people suggest, metabolism does slow down as we get older and we have to work harder. We have all heard of "comfort eating", its in your mind. Now you tell me what happens during famine ie Ethiopia..lack of food/skinny. Now tell me about Anorexia?? food but a squew on body image etc/got rid off vomit, skinny.  I am trying to demonstrate we doctors do know what food can do and without what it does. But he did discuss weight loss with you and you took his interpretation as he could not understand why yours hadnt worked. He probably in reality had not got a couple of hours to counsel you. He is a surgeon and wants to fix your immediate issue your knee? But am not being horrid to you by the way, you do realise you have a problem and if you work a bit harder at it no problem, just keep at it and then you wouldnt have to post what was posted originally. As I say be good to see you in six months time.Thats the challenge! Good luck your horse will last longer and so will you.


Factual, to the point, honest and absolutely great feed back.
		
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Oh I get that you are not being horrid, but honest, and yes things will be different in 6 months, a lot of things will be different.





indie999 said:



			What was I thinking, well I took her over to my trainer for an assessment, I wasn't sure I was going to ride, because I was doubtful about her carrying me, but the trainer said she would be fine. That was though the one and only time that I have been on her, because I don't think it is fine at all, 

Ah but who is paying the trainer.........money.
		
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But who also has other horses, who will happily pay for the trainer to help me with my ground work, there is no need for her to say I'm OK with Wills.





littlelegs said:



			I find it questionable op that your trainer okayed you riding the mare. And even if he is deluded, rather than just seeing £££ signs, do you do everything he says? If he said to ride a lame horse, or sock it in the mouth would you blindly agree? Because ultimately its your decision, & I think from your posts you know yourself that riding the mare is not fair at all, regardless of what any trainer says.
		
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No I don't do everything she says, which is why I have said several times that I only rode Wills that one time, and when I saw the pics and the video I decided to put her on ice as far as riding goes until the spring.



meesha said:



			I think it its relevant that you are only riding for 30 mins at a time (I am sure that is what you said) and not doing anything too taxing.  I am not saying that your horse isnt struggling - he must be feeling the extra weight - (if I pick up something heavier than I can easily carry I feel it !) I am refering to the first picture - the horse in the second I wouldnt want to see more than about 13 stone on.

you know you need to lose weight (I know I need to lose weight) and if you stick at it you will lose weight - why not start hacking out - walk horse out for 20mins in hand and then ride back or vice versa - it may also help if you can get someone lighter to get your horse up to full fitness so that when you are riding he/she finds it easier to cope.

Maybe utilise lunging and loose schooling as well to build fitness/topline in horse.

you are very brave posting - good luck with the weight battle - I find that just by asking myself "do I really want to eat that fat/sugar?" it helps, its my choice and its just re-educating yourself to make the right choices - I have lost one stone but have another 2 to go and yes i do feel that my horse is going better for me losing weight - I am also more balanced (less gut wobbling about) but have a way to go.
		
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Thank you, all good tips, and I will be using a few of them, with Ben I would have to ride out and walk back, living in a table top landscape with no walls, proper trees or any other mounting aids means that getting back on would be a struggle....I always mount with a block, whatever size I am BTW, but obviously until the weight goes down and the knee gets back to strength then the block is a need rather than a choice.

There will be lots of ground driving, that has started already, and also lots of 'games' in my friends indoor, when I can haul over there, walking and running on the sand is a good work out, and so many fu things to do with Emmy to get her trusting me to look out for her.

All these horses came to me having been stood in their respective fields for years, other people had given up on them for various reasons, so all this ground work, and building trust and respect is great for all of us, it means that hopefully I'll be ready for the girls when they are ready for me. Ben and I will continue our slow and steady progress, my aim is to be able to show him in the March tests, so 4 months, 16 weeks, a couple of stone lighter should be easy, hopefully a little better than that.


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## ImmyS (20 October 2012)

If I were you, I would watch the diet and literally long line your horse/s every where, no riding just long reining, will get you fit aswell as the horse so that you are both healthy and prepared for more riddeen work.


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## Cinnamontoast (20 October 2012)

devonlass said:



			Or stop riding until have lost weight??

It always amazes me that the most obvious and simple answer to the problem get's ignored.
		
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No, I already said this. I haven't been on my horse for months and won't til I drop enough weight. 

I think there's a terrible conspiracy surrounding fat people. It is so rare to be told that I'm fat. Everyone bar the vet told me to ride my horse, he'd be fine, including another vet, an equine technician, my farrier, all my mates. I get 'he'll be fine' a lot. I refuse to risk him, he's too precious. 

As for the addiction thing, four out of five siblings of the generation above me (mum) all have/had major addiction issues, booze, food, drugs. The fifth had severe mental health issues. Coincidence? Doubt it. I'm not making excuses for the state I'm in, cos I know I can drop the weight and keep it off, I just need to get back on the wagon.


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## Big Ben (20 October 2012)

cinnamontoast said:



			I know I can drop the weight and keep it off, I just need to get back on the wagon.
		
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It is still a hard wagon to stay on, smoking, booze, drugs, the choice is stay on the wagon, or fall off.

With food the choice is always with you, and it is far easier to choose abstinence over moderation, well for some of us that is.


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## Camel (20 October 2012)

Big Ben said:



			It is still a hard wagon to stay on, smoking, booze, drugs, the choice is stay on the wagon, or fall off.

With food the choice is always with you, and it is far easier to choose abstinence over moderation, well for some of us that is.
		
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I seem to spend all my life falling off that wagon and hauling my sorry ass back on again! 

xx


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## Cinnamontoast (20 October 2012)

Big Ben said:



			It is still a hard wagon to stay on, smoking, booze, drugs, the choice is stay on the wagon, or fall off.

With food the choice is always with you, and it is far easier to choose abstinence over moderation, well for some of us that is.
		
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Do you mean not eat at all? Obviously this sends the body into starvation mode, thereby storing fat and defeating the object. Very foolish, although I generally did it on weigh in day, then treated myself that night.

With booze, fags etc, you can live without them, of course not with food, which is why bad eating habits are so hard to break. I sympathise, but would still stick with what I said about not riding until some of the weight has gone. Long reining is bloody hard work if done in a sand arena, give it a go, great cardio workout if the horse walks out.


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## kerilli (20 October 2012)

cinnamontoast said:



			Do you mean not eat at all? Obviously this sends the body into starvation mode, thereby storing fat and defeating the object. Very foolish, although I generally did it on weigh in day, then treated myself that night.

With booze, fags etc, you can live without them, of course not with food, which is why bad eating habits are so hard to break.
		
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This. Good for you for waiting till you are lighter. You are right about the conspiracy, or rather the 'don't want to be the horrible person who tells the truth' situation. It is ridiculous. Also, I wonder if people do it to make themselves feel better, "at least i'm not as big as x"... or something.
People are very odd. When i get down to my goal weight it is amazing the number of members of my family (all on the podgy side, tbh!) who suddenly make it their business to repeatedly say "that's enough", "don't lose any more", "you're too thin" etc (this is at 10 stone, 5'10", a v v long way from 'too thin'...) warped modern view, i think...


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## Cinnamontoast (20 October 2012)

kerilli said:



			When i get down to my goal weight it is amazing the number of members of my family (all on the podgy side, tbh!) who suddenly make it their business to repeatedly say "that's enough", "don't lose any more", "you're too thin" etc (this is at 10 stone, 5'10", a v v long way from 'too thin'...) warped modern view, i think...
		
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I have this, too, being told I look 'gaunt'. I don't, it's just cheekbones and clavicles suddenly appear! It's normal!






^^ I like this pic, not too thin, not fat.


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## Batgirl (20 October 2012)

ImmyS said:



			no excuse for obesity.
		
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I absolutely disagree with this, addiction is a recognised problem when it comes to smoking, drinking, drugs.  Food actually has a significant impact on your brain/chemicals and some people are actually addicted/crave food.  It is not as simple as saying eat less, you have to be in the right frame of mind, you have to eat the right things, if I get to the end of the day so knackered because I haven't eaten enough I can't won't play netball/basketball/ride my horse, therefore exercise reduces and it turns into a vicious circle.  'Diets' are often aimed at sedentary people and don't work for me, I have got a referral to a dietician for my problem.

I am going to presume that you are not overweight Immy?  nor a medical professional?

However I do agree with the sentiments regarding those who are simply wanting affirmation that they can ride their horse, I will never post that question as I don't want affirmation, I bought a horse specifically capable of carrying me easily and I do not want other peoples opinions, those that ask for them should be prepared for the opinions.


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## FionaM12 (20 October 2012)

Starbucks said:



			As someone else said, you can only make yourself heavier, not lighter!
		
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To me that's just obvious sense. people who talk about "riding lighter" seem to suggest they feel less heavy than they really are to their horse. As I see it, they can feel _heavier_ by riding badly. However by riding well, they can only feel lighter than someone _of the same weight _ riding badly.



dressedkez said:



			Are you saying becuase I have got fatter.... I should be giving up the horses.....perhaps?
		
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If you have a horse which can carry your weight, not at all. But it must be able to carry the actual weight you are, not the weight you imagine your "riding light" makes you! 



mhorses said:



			No chance on earth would I be seen dead wearing jods if I was the size of a whale.
		
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I think this is a very unpleasant comment, mhorses.  We're not talking about what people look like, we're talking about the effect of excess weight on horses. Not all of us are vain enough to let how we look in our jods put us off riding.  



joeanne said:



			I honestly cannot see anywhere that anyone has been rude.
		
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Just once I think Joeanne. See above. 


The man of that grey is disgraceful IMO. The poor animal looks crippled in both photos.  I'd like to think I'd speak out.


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## Big Ben (20 October 2012)

cinnamontoast said:



			Do you mean not eat at all? Obviously this sends the body into starvation mode, thereby storing fat and defeating the object. Very foolish, although I generally did it on weigh in day, then treated myself that night.

With booze, fags etc, you can live without them, of course not with food, which is why bad eating habits are so hard to break. I sympathise, but would still stick with what I said about not riding until some of the weight has gone. Long reining is bloody hard work if done in a sand arena, give it a go, great cardio workout if the horse walks out.
		
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I meant it would be so much easier not eating at all, if such a thing were possible, but it isn't. 

I will though be losing much of the weight by using meal substitutes, just like feeding the dogs, or horses, a bag full of nutrition that gives you everything that your body needs to live. Yes it is Dr supported, drastic circumstances require desperate measures


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## FionaM12 (20 October 2012)

Big Ben said:



			I meant it would be so much easier not eating at all, if such a thing were possible, but it isn't.
		
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I once tried to lose weight while my OH tried to give up smoking, we challenged and supported each other. However, a big difference was that he re-arranged his life so he could avoid being in the company of smokers or in situations where he knew he was likely to smoke. He felt that total abstinence was the only way to do it. He knew if he had one, he'd crack. 

We both realised I couldn't do that with food. Which seemed a bit unfair IMO.


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## BeesKnees (20 October 2012)

BigBen, if you think you may have addiction issues, can you find an overeaters anonymous group near you? I used them when I was recovering from Anorexia, which sounds odd but there wasn't a group for undereaters and it helped to be around people who understand that food, (or in my case control of it), is an addictive substance _for those with an addictive personality._

For those who poopooh the idea of food addiction, what you have to understand is that the process is about addiction to something, anything, that helps to medicate your emotions and pain. The hardest part of addiction is the psychological dependence, not the physical addiction. That is usually relatively quick to overcome, however unpleasant the physical symptoms (apart from alcohol which is dangerous in withdrawal. Heroin withdrawal is unpleasant but generally harmless).

With all addictions what is left after physical detox, is the habit and psychological dependence. For those who can abstain, the process is made a bit easier. For food addicts they have to learn moderation of the substance they crave. It would be like telling a hardened smoker just to have three cigarettes a day - for most people, that would be torture.

That is why food addiction can be so hard for people to manage.


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## Cinnamontoast (20 October 2012)

Lighter Life or similar? Unsustainable, unrealistic. Do it properly. Everyone I know who used LL has piled the weight back on.


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## ImmyS (20 October 2012)

Batgirl said:



			I absolutely disagree with this, addiction is a recognised problem when it comes to smoking, drinking, drugs.  Food actually has a significant impact on your brain/chemicals and some people are actually addicted/crave food.  It is not as simple as saying eat less, you have to be in the right frame of mind, you have to eat the right things, if I get to the end of the day so knackered because I haven't eaten enough I can't won't play netball/basketball/ride my horse, therefore exercise reduces and it turns into a vicious circle.  'Diets' are often aimed at sedentary people and don't work for me, I have got a referral to a dietician for my problem.

I am going to presume that you are not overweight Immy?  nor a medical professional?

However I do agree with the sentiments regarding those who are simply wanting affirmation that they can ride their horse, I will never post that question as I don't want affirmation, I bought a horse specifically capable of carrying me easily and I do not want other peoples opinions, those that ask for them should be prepared for the opinions.
		
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I just find it difficult to believe how people can become so overweight. I don't exercise alot and my diet isn't the best but no I am not overweight. Society has made people greedy in many aspects of living, peoples relationships with food is probably the most common issue, like someone else said many of us live to eat rather than eat to live. Having no excuse for being overweight is my opinion, I don't think there is any excuse for smoking, drinking, drugs etc.. you simply don't do it in the first place. And going back to horses anyway, horses are not designed to carry people so the least we can do is make it as easy for them as possible.


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## vieshot (20 October 2012)

I think we owe it to our horses to make them as comfortable as possible when being ridden. I don't want to get to the maximum weight my horse could carry. I want him to have an easy time so for that reason I don't allow myself to get overweight. 


I didn't find any of the OP's pictures easy to view.


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## FionaM12 (20 October 2012)

ImmyS said:



			I just find it difficult to believe how people can become so overweight.
		
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I don't. I have struggled with my weight since my teens. The causes originally were medical (steroids), but then it became compounded by psychological issues. Various extreme but fashionable diets and other factors ended up with me having a very problematic relationship with food. 

I've battled with fluctuating weight and compulsive eating for 40 years now. I feel I mostly win the battle, and am not _very_ overweight most of the time nowadays. But boy it's been a struggle and I can well imagine that I could easily have lost the fight at various times and become enormously overweight. 

If you've never had such issues, lucky you.


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## indie999 (20 October 2012)

Big Ben said:



			It is still a hard wagon to stay on, smoking, booze, drugs, the choice is stay on the wagon, or fall off.

With food the choice is always with you, and it is far easier to choose abstinence over moderation, well for some of us that is.
		
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Hey join a support group it really will help you and motivate you rather than keep getting told off. Look telling people smoking is bad for them and telling them to give up as they will die is not going to work. I spent years doing that only you can take that step.

But join one of the groups. You will need to find one that you like too ie a good leader who will encourage you day by day etc. and if need be on the end of the phone when temptation comes etc. Stick a pic on your fridge to remind you why you are doing etc etc 

Go on off you go.... no more excuses. Do it. You train your horse now train yourself.


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## chokablok (20 October 2012)

*Some people seem to think their horses backs are made of reinforced steel.

Riding a horse you are too heavy for is cruelty.

I think in this country people have a problem with the word fat. I wish people would use it more and speak out when they see a rider too heavy for their horse.


If you are too heavy for your horse, stop riding it and lose some weight. If you can't do that then stop riding and take up another form of exersize.*


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## Batgirl (20 October 2012)

ImmyS said:



			I don't exercise alot and my diet isn't the best but no I am not overweight.
		
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You have a right to your opinion, and I am not picking on you, but this is why you don't understand because it hasn't happened to you.  It is easy to say don't do it in the first place but weight really creeps up on you, particularly if it hasn't impacted on your life in a noticeable way.  You also missed my point regarding the smoking and drinking, it was about the addiction once you have started doing them.

But you are right, back to horses, I would speak out in the case like the man on the grey horse, but in a grey area it is not really my place too, looking at someone doesn't tell you how much they weigh, or how much muscle they have or, well anything much at all.  I have never had anyone guess within 2 stone of my actual weight, including doctors, diet specialists and people trying to be nasty who thought they were exagerrating.  If a horse is showing discomfort I would say something.


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## Sunshine (20 October 2012)

S4Sugan raised a valid point - actual weight in kg isn't always as it looks in the body, and it was referred to earlier in the thread by someone who said 'not having a go at 6'2 rugby players' - why not? 
I would guess that the fit, muscled rugby player weighs as much or more than the weight limits we are indicating to be the maximum we feel comfortable seeing on a horse. For example, I wonder just how heavy some of the mounted policemen are, especially in full kit, most of them would be over 5'9 and probably over 13st as an average male weighs approx this. I feel the perception of size is a problem, and a lot of the concern is about how it looks. Maybe this is what people are meaning when they refer to 'riding light or riding less' - the toned and balanced weight distribution of a strong wellbuilt rider is less of a problem to them than seeing layers of fat which may look like it is out of balance. And I weigh considerably more than I look to weigh, because I have broad shoulders and a lot of muscle rather than a big wobbly belly, large boobs or bum. 
My daughter is 11, 4'10, all legs,and weighs 4st 5 so beautifully skinny and rides anything from 11hh to 16hh IDs happily but cannot ride the 11hh without comments on her height. One girl from RC is 12 yrs old, 5'5 tall, wears size 16/18 clothes and weighs around 10.5st, so is similar in clothes size/measurements to me (I am 3" taller) but I weigh more and people do not seem to realise that, by the opinions given earlier, I would probably be considered too heavy to ride, although many others have said they feel her weight is a problem.


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## Mongoose11 (20 October 2012)

It has been pretty hurtful to read some of the naïve and arrogant posts about weightloss and obesity here. Sure it's just about piggishness isn't it, don't eat it if you don't want to be fat, do you really want to look like that in a pair of johds? Why don't you just say no? Food addiction - rubbish made up by fat people. 

Spend one hour in my head. Go on. I'm sure you'll love it. Oh I do it all out of choice me - course I do.


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## Big Ben (20 October 2012)

FionaM12 said:



			If you've never had such issues, lucky you.
		
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This, if you haven't been there you really don't understand the issues, I've said before we are all different, our bodies work slightly differently, and our minds certainly are all different.

No that is no excuse, but is is fact, so my journey will be slightly different to everyone else, I just need to do what works for me. I am making slow progress, at the moment, which is why I need to kick it up a gear, and will be starting the meal replacements for a while, LOL, it is kind of thrust on me in a way, having surgery in a while to have most of my teeth removed, so a liquid, soft food diet will fit right i with that, until I get myself straight again.  SOunds like a tailor made solution to me


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## Mongoose11 (20 October 2012)

Back to add - Yes essentially it is choice but it is also mental illness.


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## chokablok (20 October 2012)

Billie1007 said:



			Back to add - Yes essentially it is choice but it is also mental illness.
		
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Okay so some people find it difficult to maintain a healthy weight - the argument is not over if someone should be fat but if someone should be fat AND ride a horse. The being overweight may not be a choice but horse riding is optional.


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## Tinseltoes (20 October 2012)

Too big for the dark horse and the man on the grey,well even worse.Why are some people pony squishers!!!!!   
How would they feel if it was them carrying the horse?


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## Mongoose11 (20 October 2012)

I agree Chokablok - the thread is about whether someone should ride if they are too heavy. So why the general hateful attitude towards fat people who just can't 'control themselves'? Not you - just some comments on this thread.


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## FionaM12 (20 October 2012)

Big Ben said:



*I just need to do what works for me*. I am making slow progress, at the moment, which is why I need to kick it up a gear, and will be starting the meal replacements for a while, LOL, it is kind of thrust on me in a way, having surgery in a while to have most of my teeth removed, so a liquid, soft food diet will fit right i with that, until I get myself straight again.  SOunds like a tailor made solution to me
		
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Hooray! I so agree. The key is just that: _what works for you_. We're all different, and as long as you're getting your essential nutrients, just pick the plan that suits you, and go for it! 

Maybe you could use this forum to help encourage you? Set yourself reasonable goals and come back and boast your success at reaching each milestone here. The resounding HHO cheer might help spur you on (to use a suitably horsey term ) towards the next one. You don't have to announce your weight, it could just be percentage of your bodyweight or other measure of distance to your goal.


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## FfionWinnie (20 October 2012)

I've mentioned already I've lost 4 st. I actually feel I cannot control myself and I do simply eat too much and for the wrong reasons. Just because I have lost it doesn't mean I have magically stopped wanting to over eat.  I have kept it off for a year but I have no idea if I will maintain it forever.


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## rodeo12 (20 October 2012)

Seriously, I am a little bit shocked. However, I've learnt to just laugh at a lot of these comments and actually feel sorry for people with such simple naive views as I'm sure everybody who thinks fat people are fat because they just choose to eat and eat are just perfect riders! 

Would love to come see a lot of you ride or jump, wait for those jabbing hands to appear over a jump, wait for you to get unbalanced because essentially, fat people just bounce around on the saddle without any control of their bodies? So skinny people, my goodness, you must be top riders and be in perfect harmony - after all you don't have ANY fat on you! 

Oh, that's right - you're not perfect! Yes, we ask horses to carry us, yes we have to be careful on what horses we ride, yes whether we ride in a light seat or a heavy seat we still weigh the same amount. BUT we can help the horse out and we can help ourselves out when riding. Just like you skinny people who are so judgemental use your stomach muscles, we do too. Oh, you didn't even realise we had muscles under all this fat? 

Stop being so ridiculous. As long as the horses are happy then that's all that counts - they let us know if we're too heavy. They wouldn't do their job properly otherwise. I ride my horse and jump and compete him xc/sj/dressage he copes perfectly and has done for YEARS! A friend got on, same weight as me, but in the 6ft3 region and my horse could barely walk. For him it was the height that was the problem, not the weight. If I was too heavy for him he wouldn't be out jumping 3ft courses with ease. Never, EVER, have I had a problem with this lameness or bad backs that automatically occur when fat people sit on a horse and I can honestly say that this is after a decade . . . not just a year. So no, it doesn't lead to damage of a horse in the long term otherwise it would have shown up by now. 

So remember, if you want to judge a fat person, judge yourself first and make sure you're perfect in every way!


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## Big Ben (20 October 2012)

FionaM12 said:



			Hooray! I so agree. The key is just that: _what works for you_. We're all different, and as long as you're getting your essential nutrients, just pick the plan that suits you, and go for it! 

Maybe you could use this forum to help encourage you? Set yourself reasonable goals and come back and boast your success at reaching each milestone here. The resounding HHO cheer might help spur you on (to use a suitably horsey term ) towards the next one. You don't have to announce your weight, it could just be percentage of your bodyweight or other measure of distance to your goal.
		
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Oh I will be, you will be seeing a Big Bens Ten by Ten thread, because I want to lose 10 pounds, that's easy right? then all I have to do is lose 10 lots of 10, but I will need help and encouragement.

Start date is set for 29th October, for phase 2, which is start of meal replacements, and that will mean a whole month of staying away from the scales, a weigh in for the first day, and then it is all about being 100% on plan and following the rules and letting the diet work.


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## FionaM12 (20 October 2012)

Big Ben said:



			Oh I will be, you will be seeing a Big Bens Ten by Ten thread, because I want to lose 10 pounds, that's easy right? then all I have to do is lose 10 lots of 10, but I will need help and encouragement.

Start date is set for 29th October, for phase 2, which is start of meal replacements, and that will mean a whole month of staying away from the scales, a weigh in for the first day, and then it is all about being 100% on plan and following the rules and letting the diet work.
		
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Sounds a great plan, good for you. 

I'll look out for your thread and be ready with my Go Big Ben flag to wave you on. 

It'll be great to see the "after" photos when you're ready to share them. 

Off to bed now. 'Night. xx


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## ImmyS (20 October 2012)

rodeo12 said:



			Seriously, I am a little bit shocked. However, I've learnt to just laugh at a lot of these comments and actually feel sorry for people with such simple naive views as I'm sure everybody who thinks fat people are fat because they just choose to eat and eat are just perfect riders! 

Would love to come see a lot of you ride or jump, wait for those jabbing hands to appear over a jump, wait for you to get unbalanced because essentially, fat people just bounce around on the saddle without any control of their bodies? So skinny people, my goodness, you must be top riders and be in perfect harmony - after all you don't have ANY fat on you! 

Oh, that's right - you're not perfect! Yes, we ask horses to carry us, yes we have to be careful on what horses we ride, yes whether we ride in a light seat or a heavy seat we still weigh the same amount. BUT we can help the horse out and we can help ourselves out when riding. Just like you skinny people who are so judgemental use your stomach muscles, we do too. Oh, you didn't even realise we had muscles under all this fat? 

Stop being so ridiculous. As long as the horses are happy then that's all that counts - they let us know if we're too heavy. They wouldn't do their job properly otherwise. I ride my horse and jump and compete him xc/sj/dressage he copes perfectly and has done for YEARS! A friend got on, same weight as me, but in the 6ft3 region and my horse could barely walk. For him it was the height that was the problem, not the weight. If I was too heavy for him he wouldn't be out jumping 3ft courses with ease. Never, EVER, have I had a problem with this lameness or bad backs that automatically occur when fat people sit on a horse and I can honestly say that this is after a decade . . . not just a year. So no, it doesn't lead to damage of a horse in the long term otherwise it would have shown up by now. 

So remember, if you want to judge a fat person, judge yourself first and make sure you're perfect in every way!
		
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But I'm not just talking about the fact of riding, and that because people are thin they can ride better, but in my opinion why would you be ok with being fat when it has/can have detrimental effects on your health?


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## Mongoose11 (20 October 2012)

Apols for my ranting. Far more eloquent people here than me. Bad day.


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## FionaM12 (20 October 2012)

rodeo12 said:



			Would love to come see a lot of you ride or jump, wait for those jabbing hands to appear over a jump, wait for you to get unbalanced because essentially, fat people just bounce around on the saddle without any control of their bodies? So skinny people, my goodness, you must be top riders and be in perfect harmony - after all you don't have ANY fat on you! 


Stop being so ridiculous. As long as the horses are happy then that's all that counts - they let us know if we're too heavy.
		
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I'm not sure anyone's saying overweight people can't be good riders, are they? Just that they need to find a horse capable of carrying them comfortably, or lose weight to ride the one they've got if it's not capable of doing so.

Do horses always "let us know"? Not everyone listens to their horse if they do. Look at the man on the grey in the OP. To me that little horse is crying out , but apparently the rider doesn't think so.


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## BeesKnees (20 October 2012)

ImmyS said:



			But I'm not just talking about the fact of riding, and that because people are thin they can ride better, but in my opinion why would you be ok with being fat when it has/can have detrimental effects on your health?
		
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ImmyS many people aren't happy with being fat. They're fed up with being told its easy to lose weight when they find it an almighty struggle. They're fed up with feeling s**t about themselves for not being able to do it. And they're defensive because they feel so raw about it.

Have you never struggled with anything? At all? if you have then use that to have a tiny bit of compassion. No one is saying people should ride unsuitable horses, but that isn't the same as saying its easy to get slim and stay there.


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## FionaM12 (20 October 2012)

ImmyS said:



			But I'm not just talking about the fact of riding, and that because people are thin they can ride better, but in my opinion *why would you be ok with being fat when it has/can have detrimental effects on your health?*

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You don't know whether the poster is "okay with being fat" though. Just because they don't post the fact here doesn't mean they aren't trying to do something about it. 

I don't think this thread is about asking people "How come you're overweight?", that's a huge and complex medical and psychological issue. Our concern, IMO is only about riders choosing horses who are comfortably able to carry them.


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## ImmyS (20 October 2012)

Yes I have struggled with things, obviously most people do and cope in different ways. If I have an issue I deal with it myself and don't inflict that problem on other people or my animals, but I'm sorry I do not have compassion for people who are overweight, I understand it can be more difficult for some people but surely if it was that easy to get fat, everyone would obese in the society we live in today. We choose what we put in our bodys and we have to accept the consequences.


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## Big Ben (20 October 2012)

BeesKnees said:



			Have you never struggled with anything? At all? if you have then use that to have a tiny bit of compassion. No one is saying people should ride unsuitable horses, but that isn't the same as saying its easy to get slim and stay there.
		
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Nods head in agreement


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## BeesKnees (20 October 2012)

Actually statistically in the US, most people are overweight. One third of the population is obese and another third, overweight.  Thats how easy it is.


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## FionaM12 (20 October 2012)

ImmyS said:



			Yes I have struggled with things, obviously most people do and cope in different ways. If I have an issue I deal with it myself and don't inflict that problem on other people or my animals, but I'm sorry I do not have compassion for people who are overweight, I understand it can be more difficult for some people but surely if it was that easy to get fat, everyone would obese in the society we live in today. We choose what we put in our bodys and we have to accept the consequences.
		
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That's a very ignorant remark IMO. You really have no idea what you're talking about.

You "do not have compassion for people who are overweight"? Don't you realise how arrogant and insensitive that makes you?

I'm guessing you're very young. I hope so, because at least as you mature you might develop some wisdom and experience and understand your fellow humans better.


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## rodeo12 (21 October 2012)

ImmyS said:



			But I'm not just talking about the fact of riding, and that because people are thin they can ride better, but in my opinion why would you be ok with being fat when it has/can have detrimental effects on your health?
		
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Who says I'm ok with fat, who says I haven't battled and battled? Who says I became fat out of choice? Who says I don't cry constantly about it just feeling like a hippo and unloveable? 

I couldn't control my weight - it spiraled so quickly out of control, but I couldn't stop it at the time. I used to be beautifully tiny as a child, then at school I got so badly bullied. I'd been bullied most of primary school - I have the scars to show for it. For a few years my parents knew about it - my siblings were at the school so I could play with them and prevent it a little. But when they moved on I was left alone. The more my parents told the school the worse the bullying got. In the end I stopped telling anyone how bad it got. I also at this point had to walk to and from school on my own. Every playtime I would stand at the gates wondering if I'd be able to run away. I didn't know how to handle that at a young age. So I ate, and ate and ate. Then couldn't tell anyone because I didn't want anyone to speak to school because it got worse. So then I had to eat my dinner on top of that as my mum would have asked questions. This went on for a couple of years. My  mum used to think when all the crisps and chocolate got eaten within a few days it was all of us eating it, never did she know, nor does know that I ate it all to numb the pain. I didn't know at that age it would make me fat, I just knew it made me feel better. 

How, How can a 9/10/11/12 year old stop that bad relationship with food forming that would stay with them for years when there's no one they can turn to or talk to? They can't it just means those habits have developed until they 17/18/19 and suddenly a hippo. But then when you realise boys just laugh at you, people just bully you more calling you fat, you find yourself making the habit of comfort eating even worse because no body likes you. Then when you're then diagnosed with conditions that need weight loss to help with them, you realise just how big you've got and then just need to deal with those emotions, food just begs to be you're best friend . . .you're only friend. Then you try to break these habits, you try really hard, but then you have a slip up, or someone calls you fat, or somebody turns around and says you know what, you chose to be this way it sets you back 100 steps back. 

It's not as easy as people think when they say just go on a diet. I have over 20 years of mental issues to deal with to do with food. The weight loss has happened before but it's hard to keep off because yes, I can eat healthy but what happens when somebody says a comment I don't like, or your nan dies - you go back a billion steps again and just eat and the weight all comes flooding back on and then you realise you no longer fit in clothes, so eat more to make yourself feel better. 

It's not right and trust me, my comfort eating has almost stopped now, but that's because I realised there was a problem and did something about it. I went to a doctor who didn't shout at me telling me I needed to lose weight, but to one who said, yes I can see you're trying. 

I don't want the sympathy vote, it's not why I wrote my life out. I just want people to see, that for me, and many others, it's not a choice, it's not something we're happy about but sometimes there's so many issues that we're have to deal with first that sometimes we don't even know that there are issues there. It's not until then the weight can come off. I still have to battle constantly with emotions. My friends regularly commenting on how I'm still single and have never had a boyfriend. My friends trying to set me up with someone else who's fat because nobody remotely good looking could ever like me. It's hard, it's not easy but sometimes people's tough love can have the opposite affects. I think really, that skinny people can have all the answers, but it's not until each individual case is unpicked that the cure can be found. Whether it's a kick up the backside stop eating 10 hamburgers, or whether it's a, once you're of steroids, the weight will sort itself out, or a why don't you see a doctor and get help approach. 

I also think, sometimes smiles are put on the face where it appears to everyone else that we're happy, but inside, when the mask is taken off the real unhappiness lurks.


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## Moomin1 (21 October 2012)

FionaM12 said:



			That's a very ignorant remark IMO. You really have no idea what you're talking about.

You "do not have compassion for people who are overweight"? Don't you realise how arrogant and insensitive that makes you?

I'm guessing you're very young. I hope so, because at least as you mature you might develop some wisdom and experience and understand your fellow humans better.
		
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I understand your point about it sounding insensitive, but I have to say I agree to some point.  We are responsible for looking after our bodies, nobody else, and therefore if we become overweight through neglect of ourselves then that's our individual fault.  

Where I do have compassion is for those people who for whatever reason medically cannot exercise and/or on steroids causing weight gain.


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## ImmyS (21 October 2012)

I just think its insulting that obesity is considered a disease when it is self inflicted, I think more time, money and effort should be going into uncontrollable diseases such as cancer? Basically if people weren't overweight this thread wouldn't exist..and we generally wouldn't need ask ourselves whether we are too heavy.. Its common sense


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## rodeo12 (21 October 2012)

FionaM12 said:



			I'm not sure anyone's saying overweight people can't be good riders, are they? Just that they need to find a horse capable of carrying them comfortably, or lose weight to ride the one they've got if it's not capable of doing so.

Do horses always "let us know"? Not everyone listens to their horse if they do. Look at the man on the grey in the OP. To me that little horse is crying out , but apparently the rider doesn't think so.
		
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Others have commented on how we shouldn't ride for the sake of horses full stop. Thus suggesting we're too big to ride, causing suffering to our animals. Not everybody. There are those who have suggested that bigger people just need to be more careful of the choice of horse ridden. Thus my comment wasn't aimed at everybody because I would not get on something thin bonned or something I questioned as to whether it would take my weight so don't disagree with that view. 

In terms of my comment about the horses let us know - well, that grey is letting the rider know. It's the riders ignorance that isn't making him see. That horse is obviously struggling and thus showing a sign the rider is too big. I think the important thing is not to think that bigger people shouldn't ride but to educate people about listening to their horse. Listening to your horse is what EVERY RIDER should do - whether it's looking out for lameness or whatever. So that man not listening is just a plain idiot, but then you have people who are ignorant in the care of their horses. BUT we don't judge everyone the same in that case - so why should the small minority judge bigger riders all the same? 

Sorry if this seemed that it was aimed at everyone - just to the small minority.


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## Moomin1 (21 October 2012)

ImmyS said:



			I just think its insulting that obesity is considered a disease when it is self inflicted, I think more time, money and effort should be going into uncontrollable diseases such as cancer? Basically if people weren't overweight this thread wouldn't exist..and we generally wouldn't need ask ourselves whether we are too heavy.. Its common sense
		
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Agree to a certain extent.  I've gone up from a 10-12 size to a 12-14 size in the past year and I am getting off my ass and doing something about it, not wallowing in self pity.  I have gained the weight because of ME.  My lifestyle needs to alter and I need to accept I am older and less able to keep the calories off now.


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## FionaM12 (21 October 2012)

ImmyS said:



			I just think its insulting that obesity is considered a disease when it is self inflicted, I think more time, money and effort should be going into uncontrollable diseases such as cancer? Basically if people weren't overweight this thread wouldn't exist..and we generally wouldn't need ask ourselves whether we are too heavy.. Its common sense
		
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Honestly, you're just getting yourself deeper into a hole here. I'd stop digging if I were you.

There are many, many subjects on this forum which I know little about. That's why I don't comment on them, because if I did, I'd look very stupid and annoy people.

Many cancers are caused by lifestyle btw (smoking, diet etc). Perhaps we should remove funding for them too.


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## ImmyS (21 October 2012)

Yes I know many cancers are caused by lifestyle, I've had family members die of lung cancer from smoking, in this day and age, we know the consequences of such actions whether it be smoking, over eating etc.. And its individuals responsibilities to look after thenselves, we have all the tools to stay healthy.. There are no excuses


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## Cinnamontoast (21 October 2012)

FionaM12 said:



			Many cancers are caused by lifestyle btw (smoking, diet etc). Perhaps we should remove funding for them too. 

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But funding _is_ being removed for obesity related medical issues. Big news a few months ago. So it seems that some (most?) doctors see it as a self inflicted problem. The cancer because you smoke idea cannot be long in following.


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## FionaM12 (21 October 2012)

Moomin1 said:



			I understand your point about it sounding insensitive, but I have to say I agree to some point.  We are responsible for looking after our bodies, nobody else, and therefore if we become overweight through neglect of ourselves then that's our individual fault.  

Where I do have compassion is for those people who for whatever reason medically cannot exercise and/or on steroids causing weight gain.
		
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And do you know and understand eating disorders and why they wreck lives and cause death? If a young girl dies of anorexia or bulimia, was it her "fault" or was she ill? Compulsive eating is part of the same spectrum and just as much an illness. It's not so simple to divide people into those who have "medical reasons" and those who don't, believe me. 



Moomin1 said:



			Agree to a certain extent.  I've gone up from a 10-12 size to a 12-14 size in the past year and I am getting off my ass and doing something about it, not wallowing in self pity.  I have gained the weight because of ME.  My lifestyle needs to alter and I need to accept I am older and less able to keep the calories off now.
		
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You have gained a very small amount of weight, and are dealing with it. Well done, but please don't judge others who may have a lifetime of major problems and eating disorders and aren't so lucky.


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## Bigbenji (21 October 2012)

FionaM12 said:



			Honestly, you're just getting yourself deeper into a hole here. I'd stop digging if I were you.

There are many, many subjects on this forum which I know little about. That's why I don't comment on them, because if I did, I'd look very stupid and annoy people.

Many cancers are caused by lifestyle btw (smoking, diet etc). Perhaps we should remove funding for them too. 

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I agree with you. There are many illnesses caused by lifestyle. Drinking, smoking even stress is known to be a major factor but most of us can't avoid that!

Immys your views seem rather simplistic. If someone was injured in a car crash because they were speeding, their choice to speed, do you think they should not recieve help/treatment?


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## FionaM12 (21 October 2012)

ImmyS said:



			Yes I know many cancers are caused by lifestyle, I've had family members die of lung cancer from smoking, in this day and age, we know the consequences of such actions whether it be smoking, over eating etc.. And its individuals responsibilities to look after thenselves, we have all the tools to stay healthy.. There are no excuses
		
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At the risk of sounding patronizing, it's clear from your posts you are very young (15? 16?) with no experience of the very complex issue of eating disorders and weight problems. I suspect one day you may look back on these posts of yours and cringe.


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## BeesKnees (21 October 2012)

Rodeo12, you speak for many many people who have used food to medicate their emotional pain. Despite what some may say on this thread, there are many of us who do understand how we can mess ourselves up and how hard it is to change.

To all thise struggling with being healthy please know you can make changes. Take it one day at a time, keep fighting and you will get to where you want to be. I know because I did it, and am grateful every day to have my life back.


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## Big Ben (21 October 2012)

FionaM12 said:



			Honestly, you're just getting yourself deeper into a hole here. I'd stop digging if I were you.
		
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Oh I don't know it's good exercise, maybe a way of keeping fit

It makes me laugh, because when we talk about about fit and healthy lifestyles, does someone who chooses to ride a horse across country at full speed *deserve*, to be put together again when they break? 

Does someone who diets to the point of starvation *deserve* our support because it's their fault that they aren't eating.

Again it is complicated, if it were so flaming simple there wouldn't be people who struggle, there are those who are posting who understand, there are young people who are posting who may find that they understand better as they get older.

Losing weight, yeah I can do that, keeping it off, like 95% of big weight loss people I struggle to keep it off. This time is going to have to be different, because I don't know if I can stand there looking at the mountain I have to climb again after this.


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## FionaM12 (21 October 2012)

Big Ben said:



			If it were so flaming simple there wouldn't be people who struggle, there are those who are posting who understand, there are young people who are posting who may find that they understand better as they get older.
		
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Beautifully put.


Look you lot, you've distracted me from going to bed 

_Really_ off now. Goodnight all.


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## ImmyS (21 October 2012)

I think its a bit quick to judge the way I feel by my age, I have always had this opinion and probably always will. Just because I am young do you think i haven't experienced anything, I'm stupid, I've never been bullied? You think im quick to judge and 'arrogant', but you're just as sharp on the judgement.


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## Moomin1 (21 October 2012)

Everyone's beginning to miss the point here.  Fine, it may be an eating disorder causing someone to be obese, similarly it may cause them to be emaciated.  But an emaciated anorexic sitting on a horse does not pose a physical threat to that horse.  An obese person does.  So, the answer is, no it's not acceptable, for obese or overweight riders, to justify the extra weight put on a horse just because of their personal issues.  

Of course, perspective and common sense is the key - so there really isn't much point trying to speculate what weights should be suitable to ride which horses.

FWIW, OP, I do feel you look too heavy on the horses you are riding in your pics.


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## YorksG (21 October 2012)

ImmyS said:



			I think its a bit quick to judge the way I feel by my age, I have always had this opinion and probably always will. Just because I am young do you think i haven't experienced anything, I'm stupid, I've never been bullied? You think im quick to judge and 'arrogant', but you're just as sharp on the judgement.
		
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People judged you to be young, based on the tone of your posting, and guess what, they were right!
The fact that you are young, almost by definition, means that you know less and have less life experience than an older person. You do not understand eating disorders, or mental illness, but you are not expected to, because you are a young person, who has received no training in these matters, or had much experience of them. However being young, does not excuse you being rude and asserting your opinion as fact.


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## Moomin1 (21 October 2012)

YorksG said:



			People judged you to be young, based on the tone of your posting, and guess what, they were right!
The fact that you are young, almost by definition, means that you know less and have less life experience than an older person. You do not understand eating disorders, or mental illness, but you are not expected to, because you are a young person, who has received no training in these matters, or had much experience of them. However being young, does not excuse you being rude and asserting your opinion as fact.
		
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Wow how ignorant!! Are you really suggesting that young people don't have any experience of mental illness?!!  Do you know the average ages of Schizophrenia/depression onset/anxiety onset?!  It is highly common in young people.


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## rhino (21 October 2012)

ImmyS said:



			I think its a bit quick to judge the way I feel by my age, I have always had this opinion and probably always will. Just because I am young do you think i haven't experienced anything, I'm stupid, I've never been bullied? You think im quick to judge and 'arrogant', but you're just as sharp on the judgement.
		
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I think people are trying very hard to give you the benefit of the doubt, hoping that your viewpoint is coming from a lack of maturity and/or experience, and not a total lack of empathy.

Eating disorders are killers. Whether anorexia, bulimia, BED or EDNOS, they mess with your head, your body and they can kill you. And surely that's what we are talking about here; anybody who is slightly overweight is not likely to cause a suitable horse any major problems. Someone at the far end of the scale, someone who does have the potential to seriously impact on a horse, surely that's someone who deserves some empathy. Not sympathy, empathy.


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## Moomin1 (21 October 2012)

rhino said:



			I think people are trying very hard to give you the benefit of the doubt, hoping that your viewpoint is coming from a lack of maturity and/or experience, and not a total lack of empathy.

Eating disorders are killers. Whether anorexia, bulimia, BED or EDNOS, they mess with your head, your body and they can kill you. And surely that's what we are talking about here; anybody who is slightly overweight is not likely to cause a suitable horse any major problems. Someone at the far end of the scale, someone who does have the potential to seriously impact on a horse, surely that's someone who deserves some empathy. Not sympathy, empathy.
		
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Just being pedantic Rhino, but it's hard to empathise with someone unless you have actually experienced the same issues!  

I do have sympathy for people with eating disorders.  I have empathy with people who have suffered mental health issues like depression/anxiety, as I have been there.  I just don't have sympathy for people who decide to ride a horse which is not comfortable carrying excessive amounts of weight.


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## YorksG (21 October 2012)

Moomin1 said:



			Wow how ignorant!! Are you really suggesting that young people don't have any experience of mental illness?!!  Do you know the average ages of Schizophrenia/depression onset/anxiety onset?!  It is highly common in young people.
		
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Ignorant? I doubt it, I have been a psychiatric social worker for over 20 years and have been first an Approved Social Worker and then an Approved Mental Health Professional, under the terms of the Mental Health Act 1983 for the last 18 years, so yes indeed I do know the figures for the related ages of the ONSET of these illnesses. I suggest that you read my post again, as you appear to have mis-understood the point I was making.


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## Blanket (21 October 2012)

Dear Big Ben
As a person of few words; You are not too heavy for your horse as long as you don't plan on doing strenuous work such as jumping, but the man on the grey IS. Horse is straddled for heaven's sake!! I would say something. My words may be few, but I try to make them matter 
As for everyone else who says "I just don't understand why people get/stay fat" Please watch "The Men Who Made Us Fat" and you may BEGIN to understand the psychology of food AND the addictive nature of so much of what we eat today 
As for your weight loss journey; VERY good luck


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## rhino (21 October 2012)

Moomin1 said:



			Just being pedantic Rhino, but it's hard to empathise with someone unless you have actually experienced the same issues!  

I do have sympathy for people with eating disorders.  I have empathy with people who have suffered mental health issues like depression/anxiety, as I have been there.  I just don't have sympathy for people who decide to ride a horse which is not comfortable carrying excessive amounts of weight.
		
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Empathy: the ability to understand and share the feelings of others, comes from the Greek for 'suffering' IIRC 

I've had long term issues with food and weight; I'd say I understand pretty well. I'm sure all of us have some sort of insecurity which means we can at least try and understand and empathise with others, no matter the cause.

I don't disagree that horse's should only be expected to carry a certain weight. I don't see what on earth that has to do with some of the comments made by Immy.


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## Moomin1 (21 October 2012)

YorksG said:



			Ignorant? I doubt it, I have been a psychiatric social worker for over 20 years and have been first an Approved Social Worker and then an Approved Mental Health Professional, under the terms of the Mental Health Act 1983 for the last 18 years, so yes indeed I do know the figures for the related ages of the ONSET of these illnesses. I suggest that you read my post again, as you appear to have mis-understood the point I was making.
		
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Your comment says that the poster 'doesn't understand eating disorders or mental health issues, but that's not to be expected because she is young.'  Maybe you have worded it wrongly, but it certainly comes across as suggesting young people wouldn't have a clue about such things. 

I wish that was the case.  I have a best friend whom I have known since we were very little, and she has suffered depression from childhood days (5yrs onwards).


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## Moomin1 (21 October 2012)

rhino said:



			Empathy: the ability to understand and share the feelings of others, comes from the Greek for 'suffering' IIRC 

I've had long term issues with food and weight; I'd say I understand pretty well. I'm sure all of us have some sort of insecurity which means we can at least try and understand and empathise with others, no matter the cause.

I don't disagree that horse's should only be expected to carry a certain weight. I don't see what on earth that has to do with some of the comments made by Immy.
		
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A person cannot 'share' the feelings of another unless they are experiencing the same feelings.  I do not have the ability to 'share' the feelings of a cancer sufferer, because (thankfully) I do not suffer what they suffer.  I can only imagine, and try to put myself in their shoes.  That's sympathy, not empathy.  Fine line though, easily confused!


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## rhino (21 October 2012)

Moomin1 said:



			A person cannot 'share' the feelings of another unless they are experiencing the same feelings.  I do not have the ability to 'share' the feelings of a cancer sufferer, because (thankfully) I do not suffer what they suffer.  I can only imagine, and try to put myself in their shoes.  That's sympathy, not empathy.  Fine line though, easily confused! 



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I disagree. We are all totally different entities, so to use your example one cancer sufferer can and will react and feel very differently to another. You cannot ever find 2 people who are exactly identical so surely your definition of empathy doesn't mean a lot. Emotions are incredibly personal by their very nature. I would think many people with terminal illnesses, whether cancer or something else, would be able to share a certain level of understanding.


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## YorksG (21 October 2012)

Moomin1 said:



			Your comment says that the poster 'doesn't understand eating disorders or mental health issues, but that's not to be expected because she is young.'  Maybe you have worded it wrongly, but it certainly comes across as suggesting young people wouldn't have a clue about such things. 

I wish that was the case.  I have a best friend whom I have known since we were very little, and she has suffered depression from childhood days (5yrs onwards). 

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A lot of people have illnessess which they do not understand, having one form of mental illness does not mean that you understand a different one. Your tone was rude and accused me of ignorance, but of course you understand all about mental illness because one of your friends has depression. I really shouldn't have bothered with all that training, should I, because of course, your 'on the job' training is so much more effective!

To be empathic, does not require you to have experienced the same situation, but to have the ability to understand the way the person who has experienced the situation, is likely to feel about it.


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## Moomin1 (21 October 2012)

rhino said:



			I disagree. We are all totally different entities, so to use your example one cancer sufferer can and will react and feel very differently to another. You cannot ever find 2 people who are exactly identical so surely your definition of empathy doesn't mean a lot. I would think many people with terminal illnesses, whether cancer or something else, would be able to share a certain level of understanding.
		
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Maybe not, but that is the way it is taught and interpreted in A level and degree English!  

Then again, they add so much crap into dictionaries these days I doubt any of it matters anymore anyway! Lol!

Back to the original subject though, yes I think OP looks too heavy for the horses she is riding.  No I don't think she looks too heavy to ride, given the correct horse.

I do feel for people with weight issues, but my concerns are directed more at the horse, but that's just my nature (not necessarily a good thing! )


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## Moomin1 (21 October 2012)

YorksG said:



			A lot of people have illnessess which they do not understand, having one form of mental illness does not mean that you understand a different one. Your tone was rude and accused me of ignorance, but of course you understand all about mental illness because one of your friends has depression. I really shouldn't have bothered with all that training, should I, because of course, your 'on the job' training is so much more effective!

To be empathic, does not require you to have experienced the same situation, but to have the ability to understand the way the person who has experienced the situation, is likely to feel about it.
		
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Have you suffered mental illness at all YorksG?  Just out of interest.

I have.  I have suffered severe depression coupled with severe anxiety.  It was horrible.  Still on meds now three years later. All down to bullying at work which resulted in the dismissal of my boss and a two year investigation.


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## rhino (21 October 2012)

Moomin1 said:



			Maybe not, but that is the way it is taught and interpreted in A level and degree English!  

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Interesting, because I'm involved in a (very successful and heavily evidence-based) programme designed to help teach young children about empathy. Is there any point if they can't understand something unless they have experienced the exact same thing, coming from the exact same background and reacting to it the exact same way?


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## YorksG (21 October 2012)

Moomin1 said:



			Have you suffered mental illness at all YorksG?  Just out of interest.

I have.  I have suffered severe depression coupled with severe anxiety.  It was horrible.  Still on meds now three years later. All down to bullying at work which resulted in the dismissal of my boss and a two year investigation.  

Click to expand...


No i haven't, which by your previous posts makes me ignorant of the issues. Still no apology for the ignorance comment I see. As I suggested earlier on, a younger person has less experience of life and is therefore, more unlikely to understand the issues involved, which ImmyS was demonstrating rather vividly, I thought.


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## Moomin1 (21 October 2012)

rhino said:



			Interesting, because I'm involved in a (very successful and heavily evidence-based) programme designed to help teach young children about empathy. Is there any point if they can't understand something unless they have experienced the exact same thing, coming from the exact same background and reacting to it the exact same way?
		
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I don't know because I haven't experienced an eating disorder personally.  I can only imagine what they must go through, and offer my sympathy and compassion.  I can empathise with people who have suffered depression as I have suffered from it so I have more understanding and personal experience of what they are going through.  Before I had it, I could never ever have empathised, because I thought depression was just 'feeling down in the dumps'.  The terror that I went through I can never ever explain to anyone who hasn't suffered from it.  I would only expect those people to offer sympathy, not empathy.

I suppose it all depends on people's interpretation of the words themselves.

Sounds like a good project though - we def need more of those sorts of things in the world!!


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## Moomin1 (21 October 2012)

YorksG said:



			No i haven't, which by your previous posts makes me ignorant of the issues. Still no apology for the ignorance comment I see. As I suggested earlier on, a younger person has less experience of life and is therefore, more unlikely to understand the issues involved, which ImmyS was demonstrating rather vividly, I thought.
		
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Errm, I don't see why you should get an apology?!!!  

I still think, particularly given your occupation, you should know that there are many young people out there that unfortunately do suffer mental health issues, and that particular poster, for all you are aware, may do too. 

I agree though that suffering one mental health issue does not give knowledge of others.


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## YorksG (21 October 2012)

Moomin1 said:



			Errm, I don't see why you should get an apology?!!!  

I still think, particularly given your occupation, you should know that there are many young people out there that unfortunately do suffer mental health issues, and that particular poster, for all you are aware, may do too. 

I agree though that suffering one mental health issue does not give knowledge of others.
		
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I suggest you read the posts in question again. Then perhaps you will see how rude you were in declaring me ignorant. I would also point out that the percentage of people in the secondary mental health services, under 25, who remain in need of services for longer than six months, is about 10% of the patient population, so not a vast number in the great scheme of things.


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## Moomin1 (21 October 2012)

YorksG said:



			I suggest you read the posts in question again. Then perhaps you will see how rude you were in declaring me ignorant. I would also point out that the percentage of people in the secondary mental health services, under 25, who remain in need of services for longer than six months, is about 10% of the patient population, so not a vast number in the great scheme of things.
		
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REMAIN IN NEED of services.  That's very different to suffering from mental illness.  It just means they respond quicker/are more receptive to treatment.  

I couldn't give two *****s if you think I was rude or not!


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## FluffyFeathers (21 October 2012)

This thread has made me lol!

What started as a simple yet controversial topic seems to have ended so far with a one-up-manship discussion on qualifications and experience of mental health and obesity. 

In response t


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## FluffyFeathers (21 October 2012)

In response to the OP, I think you are a little heavy for both you horses. However, this can be reversed by december/january with a strict diet and some good old fashioned exercise. Nothings unreversible - just find a scrap of motivation, hang onto it for dear life, and keep going.


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## jump?howhigh (21 October 2012)

I think the problem is in the western world it is now socially acceptable to be overweight, and we see more people suffering from obesity due to our sedentary lifestyles. If you don't have a medical condition that causes the weight than you should think to yourself if i was my horse would i carry me? Because tbh i think its cruel to keep your horse in tip top condition then not bother with yourself. 

Oh and the comment about heavier riding light is bull**** if you are unbalanced at 8 stone your 8 stone etc you do not gain or loose weight by being balanced you just are putting the weight in a certain area(s)


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## Wagtail (21 October 2012)

ImmyS said:



			But I'm not just talking about the fact of riding, and that because people are thin they can ride better, but in my opinion why would you be ok with being fat when it has/can have detrimental effects on your health?
		
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This thread isn't about overweight people and why they are overweight or whether or not they are happy. It is about whether they are too heavy for their horse and whether they should be taking a break from riding until they are a more managable weight for their particular horse.


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## Shysmum (21 October 2012)

^^^^^ THIS.


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## Wagtail (21 October 2012)

rodeo12 said:



			Seriously, I am a little bit shocked. However, I've learnt to just laugh at a lot of these comments and actually feel sorry for people with such simple naive views as I'm sure everybody who thinks fat people are fat because they just choose to eat and eat are just perfect riders! 

Would love to come see a lot of you ride or jump, wait for those jabbing hands to appear over a jump, wait for you to get unbalanced because essentially, fat people just bounce around on the saddle without any control of their bodies? So skinny people, my goodness, you must be top riders and be in perfect harmony - after all you don't have ANY fat on you! 

Oh, that's right - you're not perfect! Yes, we ask horses to carry us, yes we have to be careful on what horses we ride, yes whether we ride in a light seat or a heavy seat we still weigh the same amount. BUT we can help the horse out and we can help ourselves out when riding. Just like you skinny people who are so judgemental use your stomach muscles, we do too. Oh, you didn't even realise we had muscles under all this fat? 

Stop being so ridiculous. As long as the horses are happy then that's all that counts - they let us know if we're too heavy. They wouldn't do their job properly otherwise. I ride my horse and jump and compete him xc/sj/dressage he copes perfectly and has done for YEARS! A friend got on, same weight as me, but in the 6ft3 region and my horse could barely walk. For him it was the height that was the problem, not the weight. If I was too heavy for him he wouldn't be out jumping 3ft courses with ease. Never, EVER, have I had a problem with this lameness or bad backs that automatically occur when fat people sit on a horse and I can honestly say that this is after a decade . . . not just a year. So no, it doesn't lead to damage of a horse in the long term otherwise it would have shown up by now. 

So remember, if you want to judge a fat person, judge yourself first and make sure you're perfect in every way!
		
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I have no idea whether you are too heavy for your horse or not as you have not posted pictures. Fat to some people is 12 stone, to others it is 25 stone. One lady on here is almost 16 stone but everyone said she was fine on her horse because the picture she posted showed her on a substantial mare that was an obvious weight carrier. 

I do find it odd that your horse could hardly walk though because someone was taller.  It would worry me, if you saw your horse staggering with someone the same weight as you but taller. The horse is obviously not up to that weight. You were observing from the ground, whereas when you ride yourself, you are not.

ETA: It annoys me when people say horses will let you know if you are too heavy. That to me shows little knowledge about horses.


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## FfionWinnie (21 October 2012)

Moomin1 said:



			Your comment says that the poster 'doesn't understand eating disorders or mental health issues, but that's not to be expected because she is young.'  Maybe you have worded it wrongly, but it certainly comes across as suggesting young people wouldn't have a clue about such things. 

I wish that was the case.  I have a best friend whom I have known since we were very little, and she has suffered depression from childhood days (5yrs onwards). 

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I think you have misunderstood actually. The way I read the post was completely different to how you have interpreted it. 

Of course a young person has less life experience than an older person. How could they not.


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## FfionWinnie (21 October 2012)

Moomin1 said:



			A person cannot 'share' the feelings of another unless they are experiencing the same feelings.  I do not have the ability to 'share' the feelings of a cancer sufferer, because (thankfully) I do not suffer what they suffer.  I can only imagine, and try to put myself in their shoes.  That's sympathy, not empathy.  Fine line though, easily confused! 



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Empathy: The ability to understand and share the feelings of another. 

Sympathy: Feelings of pity or sorrow for another's misfortune. 

You do not have to directly experience something to be empathic or sympathetic.


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## Montyforever (21 October 2012)

I used to eat loads and put on lots of weight when I was stuck in the house with anxiety/agorophobia. Then slowly started to convince myself that I was allergic to wheat and other foods and survived on just fruit for a while, then got very ill (not related to what I was eating amazingly!) and ended up in hospital and I was so out of it I started eating normally again 
I put on tons of weight at first then lost it all and more in the end.

I have sympathy/empathy with both sides of eating disorders because I've been through it, but I would never ever have ridden when I was really overweight. And wouldn't have at the other end of the scales either as I would have been far too weak! 

Difficult one to define what's too much though, everyone has different opinions on it and every horse has different limits!


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## chokablok (21 October 2012)

YorksG said:



			You do not understand eating disorders, or mental illness, but you are not expected to, because you are a young person, who has received no training in these matters, or had much experience of them.
		
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Excuse me but you are very wrong. Even worse that you work in this field and have that opionion 

I myself, at 19, have mental health issues, stemming from the age of 11. I know friends of similar ages who have also struggled. I'm also studying psychology. I find your comment highly offensive - talk about generalisation 

Just realised the comment may have been aimed specifically at Immy - in which case you don't know enough about her to make such remarks.


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## chokablok (21 October 2012)

YorksG said:



			No i haven't, which by your previous posts makes me ignorant of the issues. Still no apology for the ignorance comment I see. As I suggested earlier on, a younger person has less experience of life and is therefore, more unlikely to understand the issues involved, which ImmyS was demonstrating rather vividly, I thought.
		
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Oh dear. So people with mental illnesses other than the specific one you are talking about, or young people cannot possibly understand mental illness to the extent you do because, despite having no experience, you are old and work in the mental health sector. Lovely.


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## Hecken92 (21 October 2012)

See, at home, I ride a 17hh Oldenburg or a 15.2hh gypsy cob and personally, I'd never ride smaller as I feel like I'm too big (in fact, I was once told I was too heavy to exercise a friends 15.2 TB - fair enough, I thought I was too!). But at uni, I've been offered a 14.2 Arab to ride (the owner also has highlands, but she allocated me the Arab!) and she carries me fine and I look fine, so this has totally thrown me! I'd say a horses ability to carry weight depends on breed - the 15.2 TB was too delicate for me but the Arab is fine.... I'd hope people wouldn't think I'm too big for any of mine... In fact, I think I'll be brave and post pics later today in here to see if anyone does!


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## FionaM12 (21 October 2012)

ImmyS said:



			I think its a bit quick to judge the way I feel by my age, I have always had this opinion and probably always will. Just because I am young do you think i haven't experienced anything, I'm stupid, I've never been bullied? You think im quick to judge and 'arrogant', but you're just as sharp on the judgement.
		
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No-one was judging the way you feel by your age. We don't know how old you are, but guessed (accurately it seems ) by the immaturity of your posts.

I use the word immature here not as an insult, btw, but literally: meaning you're very young. Of course that doesn't mean you've not experienced anything, but what is clear from your posts is that you have no knowledge of eating disorders/weight issues. There are people on this thread who are dealing with such major and even life-threatening health issues. Surely you can understand that when someone comes on and spouts that they "feel no compassion" and suggests they don't even deserve funding to help them, some might get a little upset?

No-one's judging _you_ as such or saying you're stupid, we don't know you. But we can judge your comments.

You are a teenager I think? Trust me, it's very, very unlikely you will "probably always" keep your current opinions!


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## alainax (21 October 2012)

Big Ben's mum.... You sure know how to get them talking! 

I love it, better than a good book! 


I do find both topics very interesting, being a rider, someone who has put on and lost *lots* of weight, and having a degree in psychology 

To get back on topic... 

The pic of the Grey arab is shocking, I would have to say something, and I am the type of person who usually wouldnt. I do think it is the place of the trainers, vets, friends etc to make some helpfull suggestions - and not so much strangers (unless its a shockign case like the arab). 

A stranger saying - "you horrible cruel pony squishing idoit!" coudl possibly have the complete opposite effect and result in an emotional eater putting on more weight!

A friend saying - "you know.. if we worked together to shed some pounds, im sure you would see even more of a spring in his step and look great together" or somthign similar is a nice positive encouragement. 

Sometimes it helps to visualise the weight, like...







I lost 17lbs this month. So that would be like me taking over 3 bricks off the horses back ( even imagine the bricks in saddle bags or similar). Imagine how great it would feel for the horse as each of these bricks is removed 


On the forst week I lost the weight of my cat... I picked him up and held him against my belly and walked around for a bit thinking " wow, a full cat!" needless to say... they cat was very unimpressed


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## SnowPhony (21 October 2012)

I cannot trawl through the whole thread, but on skimming I have to say a couple of things.

You cannot 'ride light'. If you weigh 12 stone you weigh 12 stone, if you weigh 20 you weigh 20. Really annoys me hearing 'oh but I ride light.' You don't, you've been told that to make you feel better.

Another thing....horses put up with an awful lot and will very rarely tell you, you are too heavy. They are amazing tolerant animals and it pains me how much we humans abuse that sometimes. Are all these people claiming they are fine because their horse hasn't told them different saying the guy in the opening post isn't too heavy for the little grey?

Some people are so selfish and really should have a think about what they are doing to their horses joints. Just because you can ride, doesn't mean you should.


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## Littlelegs (21 October 2012)

I do think its too simplistic to say 'people shouldn't be obese'. I know a very young child who is already obese. The parents simply over feed her, & themselves, & don't exercise. Otherwise her childhood is pretty happy at the moment. But as she becomes more overweight by the year, I doubt it will remain so. By her teens she'll be morbidly obese I imagine. Will that be self inflicted? No of course not. It will be her upbringing to blame. And given the self esteem issues wrapped up with size, she'll no doubt find it hard to change. The one thing I do struggle with is how many people claim its a compulsive eating disorder. Not posts on here, but in real life. Lots of people, myself included have experienced unpleasant childhoods, but sooner or later you have to accept that & move on if you want to ever be happy. Rather than using it as a fall back & excuse. I also think over use of food addiction for everyone with a weight issue discredits the very real problems of those who do have an addiction.
  I'm naturally thin & usually eat loads. But when I'm very upset, or stressed I don't eat. That doesn't mean I would trivialise anorexia by saying I suffer from it. Lots of people, fat & thin don't eat when upset. So for every single over weight person to claim its an eating disorder because they sometimes comfort eat trivialises the problem for those who do have real issues.


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## Bojingles (21 October 2012)

Wow, this thread has veered off at a few tangents since I went to bed!

I don't think anyone's suggesting fat people are bad people or bad riders; these aren't the issues. The issue is how much a horse can reasonably be expected to carry and who should speak up on their behalf and when. It's not fat-bashing.

I come at this from both sides of the fat/skinny fence. Until my late 30s I was pretty skinny: 5'5" and never got above 8 stone 5, usually hovered around 8 stone. This wasn't through any great effort; I always had a pretty healthy diet and stopped eating when I wasn't hungry anymore; never really thought about food although I enjoyed it. 

Then, in my late 30s, I was prescribed an anti-depressant, Mirtazapine, and in a very short space of time put on over 4 stone. I was suddenly faced with the new me, overweight, and the question of how to lose the weight. And I discovered it's not easy. Not at all. I've long sinced stop taking Mirtazapine and the insane carb cravings have stopped, but I feel as if my brain has been completely rewired where food is concerned. I can't look at a loaf of bread without eating the whole lot and I quite often get up in the middle of the night and, almost in a trance, eat anything to hand. In fact, for many months, I did this in my sleep. 

I lost 2 stone on the Dukan diet which suited me because I live alone and could clear the house of easily-scoffable carbs and just get on with it. I've since had an illness and an injury and the weight has crept up again. It's a constant battle I never used to have to fight.

Just saying, it's rarely simple or clear-cut


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## Wagtail (21 October 2012)

littlelegs said:



			I do think its too simplistic to say 'people shouldn't be obese'. I know a very young child who is already obese. The parents simply over feed her, & themselves, & don't exercise. Otherwise her childhood is pretty happy at the moment. But as she becomes more overweight by the year, I doubt it will remain so. By her teens she'll be morbidly obese I imagine. Will that be self inflicted? No of course not. It will be her upbringing to blame. And given the self esteem issues wrapped up with size, she'll no doubt find it hard to change. The one thing I do struggle with is how many people claim its a compulsive eating disorder. Not posts on here, but in real life. Lots of people, myself included have experienced unpleasant childhoods, but sooner or later you have to accept that & move on if you want to ever be happy. Rather than using it as a fall back & excuse. I also think over use of food addiction for everyone with a weight issue discredits the very real problems of those who do have an addiction.
  I'm naturally thin & usually eat loads. But when I'm very upset, or stressed I don't eat. That doesn't mean I would trivialise anorexia by saying I suffer from it. Lots of people, fat & thin don't eat when upset. So for every single over weight person to claim its an eating disorder because they sometimes comfort eat trivialises the problem for those who do have real issues.
		
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I am like you, LL, if I am upset or depressed, I don't eat. It is the last thing I feel like doing. I feel far too churned up and nauseous. Just shows how different everyone is and how hard it is to understand the behaviours and thinking of people who are the opposite.


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## Pale Rider (21 October 2012)

Well, nutrition is at the root of all these problems. When I was at school, obese kids were a rarity, and they always said it was glandular. Looking back, it was rubbish, the fat kids ate too much of the wrong stuff and were too fat and unfit to exercise.
If you are going to ride, no matter how big you are you need to be fit. If your obese like some of the photos, your not fit, just fat.
Making tack to fit fat unfit riders is wrong and just a bit cruel, unless the horse is big enough, like some medieval charger.


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## SadKen (21 October 2012)

Have read the thread with interest. I am not good at confrontation so would get my OH to say something to the chap on the grey. Actually I think he would probably just push him off and run away with the horse, hehe. If it needs saying to that extent, anyone should be able to say something, but word it as politely as possible which is probably more likely to get results.

I'm hypothyroid and put on 2 stone in 6 months despite a really low cal diet. Since being diagnosed and treated, I've had to eat a lot more and the weight has come off. If you are hypo (and a huge number of folk are borderline) you have to eat higher protein, more often and in smaller portions. You also have to exercise a LOT but slowly is better, so lots of walking. I dropped 3stone from 13 to 10, and did go below that when hitting the gym. I wanted to make life easier for my horse but also felt uncomfortable, like looking in the mirror at someone who wasn't me. Since I got my lad a month ago, some more has come off but my diet is bad as I'm tired and want sugar to function. Being aware is half the battle. If you are hypo or borderline, stay away from fluoride as it impedes the thyroid. OP you are very brave to post pics. I feel bigger than my fighting weight which I think is about 9stone, so I won't post unless I get to that!


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## Big Ben (21 October 2012)

alainax said:



			Big Ben's mum.... You sure know how to get them talking! 

I love it, better than a good book! 

.......................................

I lost 17lbs this month. So that would be like me taking over 3 bricks off the horses back ( even imagine the bricks in saddle bags or similar). Imagine how great it would feel for the horse as each of these bricks is removed 


On the forst week I lost the weight of my cat... I picked him up and held him against my belly and walked around for a bit thinking " wow, a full cat!" needless to say... they cat was very unimpressed 

Click to expand...

It is an interesting read for sure, I knew that it would never stay on the original question, which was simply when should you speak up 

HUGE congratulations on the 17 pounds, that is fantastic, and LOL to the poor cat.


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## meesha (21 October 2012)

Hi Big Ben - I have to ask - will you change anything after reading this thread ? I am just curious to see if it has had any impact one way or another !


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## browbrow (21 October 2012)

RealityCheck said:



			But you cannot physically make yourself weigh any less. A 300lb rider is always going to be 300lb, whether they have good seat and hands or not. 

And for what it's worth, I would not be allowing the OP on any of my similarly built horses, but I guess that's personal choice.
		
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Bob on reality check totally echo your words It's like when ppl say muscle weighs more than fat lol xx


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## Big Ben (21 October 2012)

Will I change anything? Well sorry not from reading this thread, apart from taking up the offers of support from those who have kindly made it.

I will still be riding Ben, short slow rides, with a lot more fittening ground work for both of us.

I will still choose not to ride Willow until I have lost a bunch of weight.

I will continue to ground work Emmy and build our relationship.

I never set out to ask permission or affirmation that riding Ben is OK, for that I simply have to rely on him, and the people around us to keep us straight, so for those who think that I was seeking justification for myself, for this thread it simply is not the case.

I am 1 week out from setting out on the path of severe diet again, I have already lost enough that my belt is one notch tighter, YEAH, but it is just far to slow for me. This isn't because of this thread, or any other like it but because of my own desire to be able to ride the girls next year, and I know that I am currently to heavy for them.

It is interesting comparing views from both sides of the pond, on the suitability of horses to people, and I'm not totally sure where that comes from, I could be totally off base, but I do think some of it comes from the fact that there are still a lot of working horses out here. They are expected to carry grown up all day in the cattle yards, some out on the range,  there are some conditions where a horse still beats a machine for getting the job done.

Back to Big Ben, last weekend I took him over to the local show grounds and had a couple of lessons on him, partly to get him used to loading and going somewhere, he has been a pig to load, but hopped on and off for all four journeys with minimum fuss, GOOD BOY BEN, partly to get some tips on our ground work, For God's sake Ben GROW A PAIR, and then a short lesson in the saddle, working on enter at A, walk to X halt salute, just walking straight and halting square. I don't believe that it caused him much stress, and it made me feel GREAT. We got home I sorted Ben out, fed groomed, put him up, and came in the house with a huge smile, still looking whale like in my Kerrits, but fully inspired to make the changes I need to so I can get the best from the big guy. Such a different feel to taste what it is you want to get, rather than sitting on the sofa in your sweat pants thinking about it.

Yup, we are on T -7 and counting, the booze is all gone, and no more will be brought, the ice cream, the good biscuits, the nice bread, all finished, this week will be about preparations to ensure success


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## alainax (21 October 2012)

browbrow said:



			Bob on reality check totally echo your words It's like when ppl say muscle weighs more than fat lol xx
		
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In terms of over all comparative mass/size... it does.







Ofc it depends on the contex... as 1lb of fat weighs the same as 1lb of muscle  like a ton of feathers and a ton of bricks  

But thats not how its usually meant  Like for example athletes with such low body fat can still be obese.... as the ridiculous BMI height to weight calculation makes it so.


As has been discussed to death, and mentioned over and over earlier... Imo a better term will be "riding heavy" 

Ie - a 10stone balance rider may feel 10 stone, but a 10stone poor rider may feel alot more of a burden. Any one who carried a sleeping child or a dead weight will know this. 

Ofc you cant defy the laws of gravity and ride lighter than you actually weigh - but you can be much less of a burden than someone "riding heavy"


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## ROMANY 1959 (21 October 2012)

I was a heavy rider, but just couldn't get below 17. Stone, and I am near 6 ft tall so... I took up carriage driving and got a sharer for big lad, I never felt safe in the saddle, balance just was not there at my weight.  I still do all the things with my horse, but with 4. Wheels and a pair of shafts. It has also been quite good for the other horses to see him pulling a carriage, their eyes were on stalks at first now it's only new horses on the yard that spook at it. 
There are horses who can carry weight for short distances, but I just was not happy doing it so gave up in the saddle for driving. Sorted...


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## maree t (21 October 2012)

I have not entered into this before because I felt a bit at a loss. I have varied in weight from 7 stone through to 14 stone due to graves disease (thyroid)and antibiotics interfered with my system , I had most of mine removed when i was 22. I am a LOT older now !!
I hated being 7 stone which is what I was for years and had two ponies that happily carried me. After the kids were born I developed an obsession with food . I had severe morning sickness with them both involving hospitalisation at times which meant I sat and watched cooking programmes day and night dreaming of what I would eat when I could eat again. I then developed diabetes linked to the thyroid disease. What a mess !. I try to watch what I eat and weigh about 12 stone now but i am fairly fit and very active.
 I do see riders that I think are overweight at shows but it would have to be extreme for me to say anything.
I dont ride myself at the moment but do enjoy driving but when the kids do get something that is big enough and strong enough who knows I might get back in the saddle myself one of these days.


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## Kirwil (21 October 2012)

There is still lots you can do with your horses in the times you're carrying too much weight. I ride my brother's Welshies and anytime I go over 8 stone I start working from the ground  doing favourite routes on foot is a pretty good motivator for getting back to weight  As are the amused looks people give you when you jog past them with a pony in tow 
Obviously if you're well balanced and "light" then their backs will be happier but all of your weight and all of your tack is sat on their leg joints and no amount of balance will adjust how that feels to the horse (kind of like sprun and unsprung weight affecting car performance I guess). It can be really hard to tell how your horse/pony is coping when you're on top, get a mate to film you so you can sit down and objectively see how they cope through transitions.


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## paddi22 (21 October 2012)

Big Ben said:



			I am 1 week out from setting out on the path of severe diet again, I have already lost enough that my belt is one notch tighter, YEAH, but it is just far to slow for me.
		
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But the only way to lose it properly IS for it come off slowly. Anything else just won't work. My sister was dangerously overweight and ended up in a  government sponsored to help people lose weight so they could get a gastric band. They would meet with a doctor, a nutrionist, a exercise persion and a counsellor.

I went with her to a couple of sessions and they were amazing. They said diets didn't work. There was no need to diet- all that was needed was healthy eating and exercise. My sister was amazing and lost eight stone. When anyone asked her what diet she did, she said 'none'. she said the food counselling helped the most. There is no point doing a diet unless you understand why you have the relationship with food that you have.

Now she has an amazing attitude to food, she doesn't diet or cut calories. She eats as healthy as she can, but if she wants a treat she will have a controlled portion whenever she wants, and just do a few minutes extra exercise the next day. But she said the conselling was the best thing to help her understand her relationship with food.

But the main thing the programme stressed was that she spent years putting the weight on, so it would take years to get off, and that was the proper way to do it.

You sound like a strong character and you have a fantastic incentive to lose the weight. I'm sure you have tried diets before and fallen off the wagon. If my sister was here she'd give better advice, but im 100% sure she's say to do counselling for the food issues, as until they are sorted you are fighting the same battle over and over again. 

You have gorgeous horses so i'm sure we will see pics of you riding happily on them in time!


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## Big Ben (22 October 2012)

Hi Paddi, thank you so much for sharing your concerns and insight into weight loss, I really appreciate you taking the time to type it all out, and yes I know it is very sound advice.....and you know it's coming, so I won't make you wait any longer 

BUT

I have been trying the slow eat healthy way, and it just isn't doing it for me, I have lost the same couple of pounds again and again since summer, I've said before I'm not much of a moderation person.

I'm also 55 and counting, I have wasted huge chunks of my life by being a watcher rather than a competitor in lifes game, so I need to get going as soon as I can.

This winter is going to be all or nothing, because it will mean I can ride next year, and ride properly, and that is my first goal, then I have 2 years after that to get to the right weight to ride my little girl when she comes to 4 years old







And she is my long term goal, my last horse, my last foal, I don't intend to breed another, but yeah, a great long term motivation


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## Bojingles (22 October 2012)

Hi Big Ben, I've been following this thread with interest. In my own mind I'm not 100% comfortable with you riding Ben; if it were me, I would wait. 

That said, I just wanted to wish you all the very best with your weight loss plan. You're clearly determined and very aware of the concrete benefits it will bring. You've got your short-term goals, and your longer term, and I just think it's brilliant - everything to play for! You say this winter is make or break - come on here, keep us updated, we'll help . 

Your little girl's gorgeous by the way. Loving the mealy muzzle - what's her breeding?


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## Aztecflyer (22 October 2012)

Think i read an article on horses dying because the rider was more the 12 stone?

Oh no wait i havent?

Its personal choice, there is nothing to say that being fat and riding is an offence. as long as the horse is fit and well!


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## Clava (22 October 2012)

Aztecflyer said:



			Think i read an article on horses dying because the rider was more the 12 stone?

Oh no wait i havent?

Its personal choice, there is nothing to say that being fat and riding is an offence. as long as the horse is fit and well!
		
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It is an offence to the animal if the rider is too fat and the horse must be fit and well and more than capable of taking the rider.


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## Serephin (22 October 2012)

Big Ben said:



			I have been trying the slow eat healthy way, and it just isn't doing it for me, I have lost the same couple of pounds again and again since summer, I've said before I'm not much of a moderation person.
		
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Cut out wheat - seriously.  

Modern wheat is the work of the devil!  I am currently reading a good book called 'Wheat Belly' - its about how we are all getting fat despite eating what we are told is healthy.

I had to cut gluten out of my diet due to autoimmune disease.  I don't miss it and no longer get bloated and feel sooooo much better.


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## Big Ben (22 October 2012)

PlanetHacking said:



			Hi Big Ben, I've been following this thread with interest. In my own mind I'm not 100% comfortable with you riding Ben; if it were me, I would wait. 

That said, I just wanted to wish you all the very best with your weight loss plan. You're clearly determined and very aware of the concrete benefits it will bring. You've got your short-term goals, and your longer term, and I just think it's brilliant - everything to play for! You say this winter is make or break - come on here, keep us updated, we'll help . 

Your little girl's gorgeous by the way. Loving the mealy muzzle - what's her breeding?
		
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Thanks for the support, and don't worry, lacking a real life support network of any sort, you guys have been voted as my cheering, 4rse kicking, picking up and dusting off crew as needed.

Thanks for the nice things about my little Angel, she is out of Just for Ace my beautiful Arab 







by Alto, registered Haflinger







Not exactly a planed breeding, Ace was bought scanned safely on foal to a gorgeous Arab, but slipped it without us realizing.


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## Big Ben (22 October 2012)

Aztecflyer said:



			Think i read an article on horses dying because the rider was more the 12 stone?
		
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Only if bare foot, Parelli trained, over rugged dealer purchased  French rescue wearing a standing martingale


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## Hippona (22 October 2012)

tashy said:



			I cannot trawl through the whole thread, but on skimming I have to say a couple of things.

You cannot 'ride light'. If you weigh 12 stone you weigh 12 stone, if you weigh 20 you weigh 20. Really annoys me hearing 'oh but I ride light.' You don't, you've been told that to make you feel better.

Another thing....horses put up with an awful lot and will very rarely tell you, you are too heavy. They are amazing tolerant animals and it pains me how much we humans abuse that sometimes. Are all these people claiming they are fine because their horse hasn't told them different saying the guy in the opening post isn't too heavy for the little grey?

Some people are so selfish and really should have a think about what they are doing to their horses joints. Just because you can ride, doesn't mean you should.
		
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What she said.


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## RealityCheck (22 October 2012)

tashy said:



			I cannot trawl through the whole thread, but on skimming I have to say a couple of things.

You cannot 'ride light'. If you weigh 12 stone you weigh 12 stone, if you weigh 20 you weigh 20. Really annoys me hearing 'oh but I ride light.' You don't, you've been told that to make you feel better.

Another thing....horses put up with an awful lot and will very rarely tell you, you are too heavy. They are amazing tolerant animals and it pains me how much we humans abuse that sometimes. Are all these people claiming they are fine because their horse hasn't told them different saying the guy in the opening post isn't too heavy for the little grey?

Some people are so selfish and really should have a think about what they are doing to their horses joints. Just because you can ride, doesn't mean you should.
		
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This is all correct. One of my closest friends is an equine vet and autopsy tech, her practice works with some of the country's best bred horses, and most high up sports horses. 

She has told me many a tale about performing examinations on horses that look fine on the outside, but whose insides have been torn up by spurs and are scarred to bits. Just because something looks fine on the outside, and keeps on going, doesn't me it is fine, or okay. 

I know I said it earlier in the thread, but IMO it deserves repeating - you riding those horses is not okay. You are too big,_ far too big_. The fact that you think that it's acceptable, to be frank disgusts me. I don't see much difference visualizing you on the second horse with the man on the grey, looks like similar proportions to me - other than the grey being underweight, even if that horse was in perfect condition, people would still be saying for disgusting and cruel he is. 

I would never tell an individual to lose weight to fit my idea of beauty or health - but I have no problems telling you here, because it isn't your own life or health being ruined by it; it is a horse who isn't saying no. That doesn't mean he isn't hurting.


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## ozpoz (22 October 2012)

Re Reading this, I think my answer to the OP is that it should be the "heavy riders" themselves, who should speak out for animal welfare, and take responsibility for their own actions.
By dismounting.

I'm really not being unsympathetic, I stopped riding for many years due to issues (imbalance) which i felt would adversely affect any horse I rode.Issue now sorted, it is a joy to ride again.
 I wish everyone who struggles with issues which compromise their horses wellbeing the best of luck- often time,patience,perseverance and circumstances will sort everything out!


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## brighthair (22 October 2012)

I am very careful which horses I get on with my weight. It's kind of easier though as I am tall so not likely to get on anything under 16hh anyway! I wouldn't get on a TB/lightweight or anything young at all
I agree it isn't easy, I really really work, and when I say that I mean to the point of vomiting in the gym. I've done an hours circuits tonight including squats with 15kg weights, dead lifts, lunges with 10kg, holding the plank for over a minute.. And that was an hours workout with 15 seconds rest between each exercise. I do that three times a week. I'm limited due to back problems and the physio has just discovered what is causing the pain, I also have nerve damage. And I don't stuff myself with food either <shrug>
I go to the doctors who weigh me then tell me the scales are broken as I can't be tha heavy. If I posted a naked photo, you can see where my weight is, I have absolutely solid muscle thighs and huge boobs! But I have a waist, and no massive rolls of fat
Today I had porridge for breakfast (weighed out) and I've had an apple and an individual bag of popcorn (100g, air popped, no butter) and a protein shake before the gym
This is me, and you can see my riding in my sig.
I don't really know what I'm saying  except it's not always as simple to lose weight, but riding and weight is... You need an appropriate horse


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## joeanne (22 October 2012)

brighthair said:



			I am very careful which horses I get on with my weight. It's kind of easier though as I am tall so not likely to get on anything under 16hh anyway! I wouldn't get on a TB/lightweight or anything young at all
I agree it isn't easy, I really really work, and when I say that I mean to the point of vomiting in the gym. I've done an hours circuits tonight including squats with 15kg weights, dead lifts, lunges with 10kg, holding the plank for over a minute.. And that was an hours workout with 15 seconds rest between each exercise. I do that three times a week. I'm limited due to back problems and the physio has just discovered what is causing the pain, I also have nerve damage. And I don't stuff myself with food either <shrug>
I go to the doctors who weigh me then tell me the scales are broken as I can't be tha heavy. If I posted a naked photo, you can see where my weight is, I have absolutely solid muscle thighs and huge boobs! But I have a waist, and no massive rolls of fat
Today I had porridge for breakfast (weighed out) and I've had an apple and an individual bag of popcorn (100g, air popped, no butter) and a protein shake before the gym
This is me, and you can see my riding in my sig.
I don't really know what I'm saying  except it's not always as simple to lose weight, but riding and weight is... You need an appropriate horse






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You Miss are looking very good!!!
All your hard work has paid dividends!


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## brighthair (22 October 2012)

Ha sadly I am still the same bloody weight!!! Everything is just tighter etc and my measurements are down but I am still (morbidly) obese


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## Archiesmummy (22 October 2012)

Are some overweight people so clueless that they do not think to themselves they may be too heavy for the horse they are about to ride, whether they are going for a nice little walk or do a round of cross country?

I am, it is fair to say, well covered.  I have put on approximately 3 stones since I got Archie, weighing 11 1/2 stones when I got him.  He was a newly broken ID x Cob.  Now he is older, his body has matured and he has filled out.  He has grown approxintely 3 inches and currently weighs 648 kg.  He is now just over 16.2hh and is built like a tank.  However, I am very, very well aware that I am pushing the boundaries of his comfort, I believe.  There is only so much a horses back can take, surely.  Luckily, we are slow junkies and poodle, with stops along the way and our idea of an intense ride is perhaps breaking out into an occasional trot.  

If I were to get any bigger I would have two choices, lose weight or don't ride.  I feel a diet is imminent.  Anyone want to join me?

OP, you and I know we are pushing limits, wanna diet buddy?


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## natinthehat (22 October 2012)

I have nothing against heavier people that ride. I compete in showjumping and as harsh as it is to say that some people are too overweight for a horse, it is still a sport. Obviously, being fit would make it easier to compete in that you have more stamina, and stronger muscles.


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## Big Ben (22 October 2012)

Serephin said:



			Cut out wheat - seriously.
		
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I totally agree, I think that I need to ban wheat and refined sugars for ever



RealityCheck said:



			You are too big,_ far too big_. The fact that you think that it's acceptable, to be frank disgusts me. I don't see much difference visualizing you on the second horse with the man on the grey, looks like similar proportions to me - other than the grey being underweight, even if that horse was in perfect condition, people would still be saying for disgusting and cruel he is.
		
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You are entitled to your opinion, I agree that the mare is currently a mismatch, but I've explained that before, not doing it again. 



brighthair said:



			Ha sadly I am still the same bloody weight!!! Everything is just tighter etc and my measurements are down but I am still (morbidly) obese
		
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You look great though, and by what measurement are you morbidly obese, those damn stupid BMI charts? 



Archiesmummy said:



			OP, you and I know we are pushing limits, wanna diet buddy?
		
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Starting next Monday, and I will take any and all help, will be starting a thread then, maybe you want to jump in on that one and we can keep each other motivated


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## SusieT (22 October 2012)

can i ask why you are so heavy and yet your horse appears to be very much lacking in extra condition and has v. little muscle, and no fat reserves?


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## brighthair (22 October 2012)

Yep BMI. To get down to the top weight for my height I need to lose nearly 3 stone


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## Big Ben (22 October 2012)

SusieT said:



			can i ask why you are so heavy and yet your horse appears to be very much lacking in extra condition and has v. little muscle, and no fat reserves?
		
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I'm to heavy because I eat the wrong food and exercise to little. Ben is NOT lacking in condition, he had just come back from 2 months at the trainers, working up and down hills every day, he was then in hard condition. 







He had fat reserves, just not to many, he is now putting on a little as we head into winter. 

Here he is last year, going into the winter, before he came here, and before he had done any work

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jjk_Bv9Qero&feature=plcp


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## Archangel (22 October 2012)

Very nice horse BB.


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## FionaM12 (22 October 2012)

SusieT said:



			can i ask why you are so heavy and yet your horse appears to be very much lacking in extra condition and has v. little muscle, and no fat reserves?
		
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What a weird thing to say. I can't work out what your point is. Even if you think BB's horse could do with a little more condition, what on earth has that got to do with her own battle with weight?


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## rockysmum (22 October 2012)

FionaM12 said:



			What a weird thing to say. I can't work out what your point is. Even if you think BB's horse could do with a little more condition, what on earth has that got to do with her own battle with weight? 

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I wondered that???

Only thing I can think of is she is suggesting the OP shares her meals with the horse


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## Wagtail (22 October 2012)

I wish you every success with your weight loss BB. But I am concerned that you are still intending to ride your horse despite probably 30 people or more telling you they think you are too heavy for him. Many of these people are overweight themselves. Some are abstaining from riding due to weight issues. Some, including myself are trainers.


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## FionaM12 (22 October 2012)

rockysmum said:



			I wondered that???

Only thing I can think of is she is suggesting the OP shares her meals with the horse  

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Yes I did wonder if the poster was trying to suggest that the OP scoffs the horse's feeds as well as her own!


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## Big Ben (22 October 2012)

rockysmum said:



			I wondered that???

Only thing I can think of is she is suggesting the OP shares her meals with the horse  

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I'm not sharing with him, Emmy and I get to the food trough first and don't let the others in



Wagtail said:



			I wish you every success with your weight loss BB. But I am concerned that you are still intending to ride your horse despite probably 30 people or more telling you they think you are too heavy for him. Many of these people are overweight themselves. Some are abstaining from riding due to weight issues. Some, including myself are trainers.
		
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With the greatest of respect, I have a lot of people here telling me that I am to heavy, a few on the fence, and a couple saying that the little I'm doing won't hurt him to much.

I have no idea of, and no way of knowing who knows what they are talking about, and who has never seen a horse in their life. Everyone is making up their mind from one small snapshot in time, and from that you are deciding how we are together.

I do give consideration to your views, but I'm sure you can understand that the people I have here, who know Ben and I in real life, are maybe in a better position to say what works and what doesn't. 

Yes I know I'm to heavy to do much, but I am OK with the little we are doing, is Ben OK with it? Well he shows no reluctance to be ridden, he isn't sore, isn't lame, and he is well cared for. Now sure he would love to roll the clock back a year, and go back to doing nothing, as he has done for 8 or 9 years of his life, hanging out in a field with little handling, no foot care, simply being a horse. 

You don't know what Ben means to me, what being able to ride him for the little that I do, does for me, and how it is motivating me to make the change so that I can enjoy him fully, and just ride him without rationing my time, or limiting myself to a walk.


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## rockysmum (22 October 2012)

FionaM12 said:



			Yes I did wonder if the poster was trying to suggest that the OP scoffs the horse's feeds as well as her own! 

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    Even better


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## rockysmum (22 October 2012)

Big Ben said:



			I'm not sharing with him, Emmy and I get to the food trough first and don't let the others in
.
		
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## cornbrodolly (23 October 2012)

Why dont people take responsibility for themselves. If you re fat,obese,whatever ,know that [unlessa medical condition] you have made yourself that way, and every day are CHOOSING to stay that way. The answer is simple - eat less+exercise more. For those that 'battle' and become quickly defeated with every diet[ because as we know quick fixes dont work   ] - its not a diet but a lifelong commitment. How many fat people , by middle age have bad knees,hips or breathing ? A huge amount , and dont get me started on NHS costs of all this . Once you re in the obese category ,your health WILL be affected. And are these fat people good riders - no , they havent the tone to ride well, but sit like a tub of lard.
Rule of thumb for riding weights never more than 1/5 th of the horses weight. cant bear to see horsesstruggling with too much weight- it is cruelty.


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## Mongoose11 (23 October 2012)

cornbrodolly said:



			Why dont people take responsibility for themselves. If you re fat,obese,whatever ,know that [unlessa medical condition] you have made yourself that way, and every day are CHOOSING to stay that way. The answer is simple - eat less+exercise more.
		
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It is seriously early for me to be handing out my 'Moron of the Day' award but do you know what...... you deserve it. Congratulations 

(not suggesting that eat less - move more isn't factually correct)


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## Hippona (23 October 2012)

Big Ben said:



			With the greatest of respect, I have a lot of people here telling me that I am to heavy, a few on the fence, and a couple saying that *the little I'm doing won't hurt him to much.* 

You don't know what Ben means to me, what being able to ride him for the little that I do, does for me, and how it is motivating me to make the change so that I can enjoy him fully, and just ride him without rationing my time, or limiting myself to a walk.
		
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And with the greatest of respect also.....not hurting your horse 'too much' should be totally unacceptable to you.

If you loved him that much....you wouldn't want to hurt him 'at all'.

Do the people who are saying its OK for you to be riding him have a vested interest, I wonder?

If its your instructor....then its in his/her best interests for you to be riding and having lessons.

If its your 'back person' then riding your horse and having his back checked often will certainly be in the best interests of this person.

Stop being so utterly selfish....lose some weight and then be confident that when you are riding you are not hurting your horse.

Where's the partnership here? I'm sorry...but you are considering your wish to ride, not the burden your horse has to carry.
 He doesn't have a choice- you do.


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## Littlelegs (23 October 2012)

Very well put hippona.


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## Victoria25 (23 October 2012)

I personally wouldnt confront someone about their weight/what they are riding as I dont feel it would be my business BUT if I thought for a second the horse was suffering then yes I would 

I've known many a person to be upset when they've had a "telling off from the judge" about their weight 

My husband is 16 stone (gym freak not fat) and I always get ... ohh does he ride your horses?? No he bloody doesnt!!!!!


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## Coldfeet! (23 October 2012)

Weight has always been bane on my life, always struggled with it. 

After my last child I weighed 15 stones and a size 20, had a young welsh cob and he was inspiration to lose the weight, he was 4 and I wanted to back him, I seemed to happily stop about 10 stone 11lbs and a size 12, I know this sounds fat to you whippets out there but I actually started to look a bit gaunt as I have a big frame. I was SO happy. 

I lightly backed my pony (14.2hh)

got the saddler out to fit us a new saddle and the saddler with oodles of sugar coating told me I was too heavy for him. 

It was like someone ripped my heart out. 

Needless to say I was on the verge of selling my beloved pony and I piled on two stones comfort eating, I think I am just managing to pick myself up and dust myself off, that was the most devastating blow I have ever had to my self esteem but I am back on the right track diet wise but I am still up and down and frequesntly feel there is no point me even trying any more and have turned him away until next year, I dont know what to do if I cant ride my pony.

I think whatever you weigh because of people individual perceptions someone out there will always think you are fat.


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## FionaM12 (23 October 2012)

cornbrodolly said:



			The answer is simple - eat less+exercise more.
		
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Billie1007 said:



			It is seriously early for me to be handing out my 'Moron of the Day' award but do you know what...... you deserve it. Congratulations 

(not suggesting that eat less - move more isn't factually correct)
		
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Couldn't agree more Billie. A truly idiotic post.

Why not tell all the alcoholics, "The answer is simple - give up alcohol." Problem sorted. 

Cornbrodolly, I think you might find that intelligent people with weight issues know loads of the theory, almost definitely much more than you do. Please don't patronise people on a subject of which you clearly have no understanding.


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## lcharles (23 October 2012)

If you're that fat, I bet you'd think twice before sitting on a stool, perching on the edge of a desk, climbing a wooden ladder........because they would all break! Just because the horse won't physically splat/snap/collapse, it doesnt mean its ok! The horse will just break down in time, as will an overloaded van/car, a roof covered in snow. 

Get on a diet and off those poor horses backs!


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## alainax (23 October 2012)

lcharles said:



			If you're that fat, I bet you'd think twice before sitting on a stool, perching on the edge of a desk, climbing a wooden ladder........because they would all break! Just because the horse won't physically splat/snap/collapse, it doesnt mean its ok! The horse will just break down in time, as will an overloaded van/car, a roof covered in snow. 

Get on a diet and off those poor horses backs!
		
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ummmm I think you have summed up and shot yourself in the foot at the same time.. 

Anyone of any size thinks twice before putting thier weight on anything that isnt suitable... Someone of 10stone would think twice of sitting on a plastic childs chair - as its not suitable for thier weight. 

Someone of 10 stone may think twice of climbing a wooden ladder, if it doesnt look suitable for that weight...

Someone of 20 stone can plonk down perfectly fine on a stool if it looks suitable for thier weight.. 

The point being, its what item/horse is suitable for the weight. 
And yes ofc if you are too heavy the item/horse will suffer as a result. 


And I guess the point of the discussion, of what is suitable and what its not - and when would you say somthing 


Ps- me personally I work out the 20% rule, and the other big calculation with measuring bone etc - and make sure im under both before I will ride  I think also as a rider its important to be aware of how you feel on a horse. The big 16.2hh ID im buying felt like a rock underneath me, and I felt like a wee pea sitting on his back. I worked out the figures and im well under the 20% rule plus the big calculation one - so im happy


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## BeesKnees (23 October 2012)

lcharles said:



			If you're that fat, I bet you'd think twice before sitting on a stool, perching on the edge of a desk, climbing a wooden ladder........because they would all break! Just because the horse won't physically splat/snap/collapse, it doesnt mean its ok! The horse will just break down in time, as will an overloaded van/car, a roof covered in snow. 

Get on a diet and off those poor horses backs!
		
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cornbrodolly said:



			Why dont people take responsibility for themselves. If you re fat,obese,whatever ,know that [unlessa medical condition] you have made yourself that way, and every day are CHOOSING to stay that way. The answer is simple - eat less+exercise more. For those that 'battle' and become quickly defeated with every diet[ because as we know quick fixes dont work   ] - its not a diet but a lifelong commitment. How many fat people , by middle age have bad knees,hips or breathing ? A huge amount , and dont get me started on NHS costs of all this . Once you re in the obese category ,your health WILL be affected. And are these fat people good riders - no , they havent the tone to ride well, but sit like a tub of lard.
Rule of thumb for riding weights never more than 1/5 th of the horses weight. cant bear to see horsesstruggling with too much weight- it is cruelty.
		
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*Sigh*

People with weight issues, may or may not have a choice in being the way they are

You, however, *do* have a choice in whether you join a very long thread, at the end, without reading much of said thread to see if what you insist on saying has already been said, and insist on making unhelpful comments.....


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## Hippona (23 October 2012)

BeesKnees said:



			*Sigh*

People with weight issues, may or may not have a choice in being the way they are

You, however, *do* have a choice in whether you join a very long thread, at the end, without reading much of said thread to see if what you insist on saying has already been said, and insist on making unhelpful comments.....
		
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*Bigger sigh*

They may not have total control over their weight, no. 

They do however have total control over whether they choose to climb on board a horse....


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## Big Ben (23 October 2012)

Hippona said:



			And with the greatest of respect also.....not hurting your horse 'too much' should be totally unacceptable to you.

If you loved him that much....you wouldn't want to hurt him 'at all'.

Do the people who are saying its OK for you to be riding him have a vested interest, I wonder?

If its your instructor....then its in his/her best interests for you to be riding and having lessons.

If its your 'back person' then riding your horse and having his back checked often will certainly be in the best interests of this person.

Stop being so utterly selfish....lose some weight and then be confident that when you are riding you are not hurting your horse.

Where's the partnership here? I'm sorry...but you are considering your wish to ride, not the burden your horse has to carry.
 He doesn't have a choice- you do.
		
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Again, you have your opinion, based on one picture, others have theirs, based on real life. Do they have a vested interest? well yes the professionals I pay do, but then I pay them to help me with ground issues as well, or to look to the health of the rest of the herd.

So yes I will be guided by the people on the ground here, and will continue to do the very little we are doing, and as I lose weight and get fit I will be asking for more from both of us.


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## Hippona (23 October 2012)

Soooo.....the question was, originally....who should and when would you tell someone they are too fat to ride?

Seems to me there is no point, because those who ARE told they are too fat to ride don't listen to anyone whose opinion they are not paying for.

Whatever.

Do what you will.....you quite obviously are going to anyway.


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## Littlelegs (23 October 2012)

People are very good at only hearing what they want to. Look at the fuller fillies site for instance. Unlike some posters here who want to lose weight, for their own health as well as to ride, its full of people trying to convince each other that its a good thing & makes you a real woman to be morbidly obese. They don't want to hear about the health problems for themselves, let alone the horses.


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## scarymare (23 October 2012)

Really sorry as I haven't read thread but FWIW.

Instructors have a professional responsibility to advise on this issue.  So many don't though.

It is hard.   My sister who is obese owns 2 totally unsuitable LW horses (think she must be 16 stone).  Both have had issues, both unrideable now.  Trouble is although I have told her nicely that she perhaps should get something with more bone/bigger she is in absolute denial about her problem.  'I prefer smaller horses' etc.

What gets me is the dealers who sold to her.  But then that's why I love animals, so many crap people lacking any sort of integrity in this world.


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## FfionWinnie (23 October 2012)

Coldfeet what does your cob weigh in fit condition?  My 14.3 paint mare is 435kgs, I would have thought a 14.2 cob would weigh more than her and would be within the 20% limit or under wouldn't it. Maths was never my strong point I should admit . But I would work it out properly and see what your target weight would be to ride your cob 

Did your saddler bother to ask what he weighs and what you weigh before they said that?

I think it is true you cannot judge someone by just looking at them as height makes a big difference as to whether you look the weight you are if that makes sense. 

I think whether or not folk think the op should be riding that horse or not there is no need to be nasty, you won't change someone's mind by being rude to them and at the end of the day it is her horse and she will do what she likes with it. 

I do think longing lining is good exercise without it feeling like exercise. I've lost weight this week working my youngster on the long lines (on a circle mainly) and it was fun, not a word I'd usually attach to exercise or weight loss. 

And get a wii fit, that's another great tool


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## Big Ben (23 October 2012)

FfionWinnie said:



			And get a wii fit, that's another great tool 

Click to expand...

Yup, have one of those, and now the snow is down it will be brought into play again....


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## FionaM12 (23 October 2012)

Hippona said:



			Soooo.....the question was, originally....who should and when would you tell someone they are too fat to ride?

Seems to me there is no point, because those who ARE told they are too fat to ride don't listen to anyone whose opinion they are not paying for.

Whatever.

Do what you will.....you quite obviously are going to anyway.
		
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The OP did not ask anyone's opinion about riding her horse though. She made it clear she has made her mind up, which is her right to do, whether anyone here agrees or not.

The question asked was (given the example of that poor grey arab ) would you say something in real life? 

Your statement "there is no point, because those who ARE told they are too fat to ride don't listen to anyone whose opinion they are not paying for" is a _huge_ generalization, and there's no way any of us know who would take advice and who wouldn't.


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## Wagtail (23 October 2012)

Hippona said:



			Soooo.....the question was, originally....who should and when would you tell someone they are too fat to ride?

Seems to me there is no point, because those who ARE told they are too fat to ride don't listen to anyone whose opinion they are not paying for.

Whatever.

Do what you will.....you quite obviously are going to anyway.
		
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I completely agree. It is a very diffcult thing to have to tell someone they are too heavy for their horse.  I have done it twice. Once was for a teenager and she has continued to put on weight and continued to ride the pony. I rode him the other day and words cannot describe how awful he felt.  He is only 10 and feels like a cripple. And another time was when a lady of around the OP's size came to ride my 17.3 ID gelding. I did let her on but quickly asked her to dismount again when I saw the expression on my horse's face. He would have carried her without a doubt, and not complained, but I saw how the saddle sank down into his back and how unbalanced she was. She almost fell off when he went into trot. I told her she was too heavy and unbalanced to ride him, but I put it in as nice a way as I could. Last thing I heard she had bought herself a shire.

IME those people who need telling are the least likely to think they are too heavy, and the most likely to ignore you!


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## Wagtail (23 October 2012)

FionaM12 said:



			The OP did not ask anyone's opinion about riding her horse though. She made it clear she has made her mind up, which is her right to do, whether anyone here agrees or not.

The question asked was (given the example of that poor grey arab ) would you say something in real life? 

Your statement "there is no point, because those who ARE told they are too fat to ride don't listen to anyone whose opinion they are not paying for" is a _huge_ generalization, and there's no way any of us know who would take advice and who wouldn't. 

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I disagree with you there. I think the OP put her own examples up for discussion, including herself. She also gave her own views on them as is the norm for a discussion thread.

To be honest, it should be obvious to anyone who is knowledgable about horses that they are too heavy to ride certain horses. I am quite frankly flabberghasted by some of the pictures on the American site. I am also very sad that the OP does not think that the fact that the vast majority of respondents on this thread have said she is too heavy, is of any concern.


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## Big Ben (23 October 2012)

FionaM12 said:



			Your statement "there is no point, because those who ARE told they are too fat to ride don't listen to anyone whose opinion they are not paying for" is a _huge_ generalization, and there's no way any of us know who would take advice and who wouldn't. 

Click to expand...

I have listened to advice where Willow is concerned, and it would be OH so easy for me to say that I wont ride Ben until I have got down to  weight that everyone has agreed is acceptable, but without knowing his weight or mine then we would be playing the guessing from a snapshot game for a long time. There are those who have such a low weight threshold in their mind that I probably would never get there, so I could say flark it all and just stay the size I am. 

I do appreciate everyone's thoughts and input, it is always interesting to hear others views.


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## Wagtail (23 October 2012)

Big Ben said:



			I have listened to advice where Willow is concerned, and it would be OH so easy for me to say that I wont ride Ben until I have got down to  weight that everyone has agreed is acceptable, but without knowing his weight or mine then we would be playing the guessing from a snapshot game for a long time. There are those who have such a low weight threshold in their mind that I probably would never get there, so I could say flark it all and just stay the size I am. 

I do appreciate everyone's thoughts and input, it is always interesting to hear others views.
		
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What does Ben weigh? Around 1300 lb? That would make you 20% of his weight at around 260 lb? That's not an unrealistic target, surely? Of course I am just guessing his ideal weight for a 16 hh big boned animal.


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## devonlass (23 October 2012)

I find the study someone mentioned earlier in the thread about the % of weight carried and the long term effects very interesting.

It seems to suggest that the 20% rule is a pretty good guide and usually a safe zone.Perhaps as there is so much uncertainty about what is an acceptable weight,sticking to the 20% rule for those in doubt would be a good plan??

Different subject but I am a bit baffled as to how we came around to thinking everyone with a weight problem is an addict or has an eating disorder

That's quite frankly ludicrous,and a cop out.

The majority of people who are overweight are that way because todays lifestyle and food market has made it easy to be that way.As a nation we are lazy,physically and mentally,and often in need of stress release or 'comfort'.
I say this BTW as someone who has done yo-yo dieting and had weight issues all their adult life before anyone say's I don't understand or can't empathise.

I don't have an eating disorder,and am not addicted.I *could* say i was as an excuse for my weakness but that IMO would completely diminish the importance of those conditions the minority that genuinely do suffer with them.

*Most* people who are overweight are that way because of a choice.It may be a hard choice at times to deny yourself,but it is a choice none the less.
I decided a while ago to change my unhealthy attitude towards food,many others have done the same,many more *could* do the same but choose not to,but it *is* still a choice on their part not a compulsion,(even if some days it feels that way).There is nothing to be gained by kidding ourselves that somehow our eating habits and unhealthy lifestyles are 'not our fault'.


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## Achinghips (23 October 2012)

I always love your posts Devonlass.


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## FionaM12 (23 October 2012)

devonlass said:



			Different subject but I am a bit baffled as to how we came around to thinking everyone with a weight problem is an addict or has an eating disorder

That's quite frankly ludicrous,and a cop out.
		
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I see where you're coming from and I agree it's not always due to an eating disorder, but my posts were in response to people who were saying "what's the problem, just eat less" when it's obviously not that simple.

If someone gains some weight, then tackles it successfully, they obviously haven't got an eating disorder. Neither has someone who by choice or ignorance lives on pizzas and chips and has no intention of changing that.

However those people who are miserable about their weight, morbidly obese and simply cannot change their habits despite trying very hard and understanding what they should do about it, clearly _have_ an eating disorder. They have complex psychological issues which cause them to comfort eat, or binge, and they are not helped by people making dismissive comments such as some of those on this thread. Not yours, by the way.


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## Littlelegs (23 October 2012)

The thing is with the 20% rule is its 20% of the horses weight when its in peak conditions & a healthy adult. Not when the horse is overweight, unfit, just broken, old etc. And it is that, the maximum, not a case of I'm only 25% of my unfit horses weight so that will be ok for 10 minutes.


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## Flame_ (23 October 2012)

Horses break down all the time. Because they were backed too soon, because they do too much schooling, because they don't do enough schooling and learn to use themselves properly, because we feed them imperfect diets, because they are hell bent on breaking their own necks, because we hack them on the roads, etc, etc.... 

The OP has a point, her horse has a job to do and at the moment its doing it, not unhappily if she's correct. Who's business is it in RL to tell her or anyone else what they should and shouldn't be doing with their horse?


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## Flame_ (23 October 2012)

Coldfeet! said:



			Weight has always been bane on my life, always struggled with it. 

After my last child I weighed 15 stones and a size 20, had a young welsh cob and he was inspiration to lose the weight, he was 4 and I wanted to back him, I seemed to happily stop about 10 stone 11lbs and a size 12, I know this sounds fat to you whippets out there but I actually started to look a bit gaunt as I have a big frame. I was SO happy. 

I lightly backed my pony (14.2hh)

got the saddler out to fit us a new saddle and the saddler with oodles of sugar coating told me I was too heavy for him. 

It was like someone ripped my heart out.
		
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This is so sad.   A 14.2 welshie should carry an average size woman. Your saddler might be flat wrong, you know. Be really, really honest with yourself, do your research, weigh your horse, take photos of you on the horse to look at and make your own mind up.


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## Wagtail (23 October 2012)

Flame_ said:



			Horses break down all the time. Because they were backed too soon, because they do too much schooling, because they don't do enough schooling and learn to use themselves properly, because we feed them imperfect diets, because they are hell bent on breaking their own necks, because we hack them on the roads, etc, etc.... 

The OP has a point, her horse has a job to do and at the moment its doing it, not unhappily if she's correct. Who's business is it in RL to tell her or anyone else what they should and shouldn't be doing with their horse?
		
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Whose business is it to tell someone not to starve their horse, or flog their horse, or over feed their horse? Whose business is it to tell someone they can't keep 100 cats in their house, or leave their dogs in hot cars, or back a yearling? Overloading a horse is cruel IMO just like the other things I've listed. Some are worse than others, but still cruel.


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## Wagtail (23 October 2012)

Flame_ said:



			This is so sad.   A 14.2 welshie should carry an average size woman. Your saddler might be flat wrong, you know. Be really, really honest with yourself, do your research, weigh your horse, take photos of you on the horse to look at and make your own mind up.
		
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agree with this.


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## rhino (23 October 2012)

littlelegs said:



			The thing is with the 20% rule is its 20% of the horses weight when its in peak conditions & a healthy adult. Not when the horse is overweight, unfit, just broken, old etc. And it is that, the maximum, not a case of I'm only 25% of my unfit horses weight so that will be ok for 10 minutes.
		
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It's not even a rule. It was a figure plucked from a very limited, very small scale, badly written 'study' which only considered the immediate effects i.e. muscular soreness.

They ignored the cumulative damage, the importance of the horse being in good condition, conformation, type, etc (Can you tell I don't think much of it?)

People still like to throw the 20% figure about though 

I spoke out today! I turned down a lovely pony, as I'm too heavy/tall for her.


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## Littlelegs (23 October 2012)

Rhino- I too don't use it as a personal guide. And I too turned down backing a pony at wkend. The height issue I could live with but I didn't feel my weight was suitable. I only mentioned the 20% rule because its being bandied around like its a target weight, rather than the absolute max. 
  Wagtail- very well put. I assume most of us have read black beauty? Which was inspired by the fact that back then, the attitude was 'who am I to interfere if someone beats or starves a horse to death'.


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## stencilface (23 October 2012)

I wanted to speak out when I saw a HUGE lady riding a fine ish welsh D at a show this summer. Her ass flowed over the saddle, and the combined width of her legs was wider than the horse, plainly seen when viewed from the front. However I said nothing, and the judge did the same. Her entourage were scary quite frankly and I don't doubt I would have left with a black eye at best 

I don't know who is supposed to say something really, I would think of myself as being brutally honest with people, but self preservation is also a strong point!!


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## FfionWinnie (23 October 2012)

When I said target I didn't really mean 20% should be the target more that coldfeet would know if she got back down to 11.11st which was a good weight for her, whether that would be ok for her horse.


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## popeyesno1fan (23 October 2012)

Havnt read all the replies, but the guy on the grey shouldn't be riding him, he's far too big for him. Poor horse. I have a friend thats well on the obese side of big, and he rides, but he always buys big, heavyweight hunters that are really up to carrying weight. He wouldnt dream of sitting up on any horse that wasn't 17hh +, nearly as wide as high, and fit, so up to carrying him. When he leaves the horse out to grass for a break, he'll send them away to get them fit before he'll get up. He thinks its only fair to the horse.  Have to agree with him.


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## Littlelegs (23 October 2012)

Fw- wasn't aiming it at anyone in particular, it just seems to be a recurring theme with some, wasn't a dig at coldfeet.


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## Big Ben (23 October 2012)

Wagtail said:



			What does Ben weigh? Around 1300 lb? That would make you 20% of his weight at around 260 lb? That's not an unrealistic target, surely? Of course I am just guessing his ideal weight for a 16 hh big boned animal.
		
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On actual measures Ben stands 16.2hh on 9" of bone, he was bought as 17hh, but I have never found the other 2"

His calculated weight is 1386 pounds, though I really must take him over the weighbridge one of these days to get an actual weight.

So 20% would put him carrying 278 pounds, with rounding, so in reality with in a couple of weeks I will be at 20%, a couple of weeks more to allow for tack etc.

Currently my tack and I will be at 23% of his bodyweight, so for 3% you wanmt to crucify me for walking him for 20 mins 2 or 3 times a week Or maybe my maths are worse than I thought.

Willow, pictured in OP, is 15.2hh standing on 7.5 inches of bone

She weighs in at 1125, so 28% of her weight, so yes, work to do there.

Emmy is the interesting one, Polish Arab, standing  15hh on 8" of bone and rock hard feet.

According to the weight calculation she comes out at 1096, which I frankly find hard to believe, but she is very short compared to her girth, so nearly 30% for her.

Of all of them though Emmy is most compact, short back, well sprung, and tough as nails Arab, I often see it said that Arabs are better weight carriers so do we do the maths different for them? I have no intention of runing out there and riding her, it is a genuine question.


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## rhino (23 October 2012)

Big Ben said:



			I often see it said that Arabs are better weight carriers so do we do the maths different for them? I have no intention of runing out there and riding her, it is a genuine question.
		
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Arabs have fewer vertebra than other breeds of horse/pony so if you are looking at the analogy of a suspension bridge, the shorter the bridge the stronger it is. They also _tend_ to have relatively short cannon bones which is often seen as another indicator of a decent weight carrier. It is often said that arabs, like Icelandic horses, have a higher bone density, but as I've yet to see ANY bone densitometry experiments being carried out I'll reserve judgement on that one!


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## Wagtail (23 October 2012)

Big Ben said:



			Currently my tack and I will be at 23% of his bodyweight, so for 3% you wanmt to crucify me for walking him for 20 mins 2 or 3 times a week Or maybe my maths are worse than I thought.
		
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It is not 3% though. Say it's 24 % with tack. The 20% (or one fifth) is 100% of the maximum weght you should be, so in actual fact you are 20% heavier than the heaviest you should be (with tack). 

Sounds like you will soon be there though.


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## Cortez (23 October 2012)

OP, get a grip. You are too fat to ride these horses. Lose some weight before you get back up. Make sure your horses (all of them, from the Big Fella to the small one) are fit, conditioned and able to carry your weight. THEN go riding. Make life easy (for your dearly beloved horses, and yourself), it's a no-brainer.


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## Big Ben (23 October 2012)

Wagtail said:



			It is not 3% though. Say it's 24 % with tack. The 20% (or one fifth) is 100% of the maximum weght you should be, so in actual fact you are 20% heavier than the heaviest you should be (with tack). 

Sounds like you will soon be there though.
		
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I told you my maths sucked, but why did we go to 24%, I've allowed for rider and tack in my calculations, but yes I do get what you mean...


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## Achinghips (23 October 2012)

This is what the OP asked originally:

Point is, who should speak up, when and how? It is easy to set weight limits for your own horse, and refuse others to ride, but what on their own horse, would you say something to me in real life, if you saw me on Ben, or Willow? Would you speak up if the gentleman posted turned up to ride with you?

......

I believe it is the responsibility of the trainers/sellers to speak up.  First and foremost though it is the responsibility of the buyer/rider.  In real life I would not speak up to anyone, but would probably stare in disdain.  If the gentleman in question turned up to ride with me, I would dismount and leave or if on a lesson, cancel the lesson, dismount and leave, explaining to the instructors my reasons for doing so.

On a forum I would be more vocal, protected by relative anonymity.


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## Big Ben (23 October 2012)

Cortez said:



			OP, get a grip.
		
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I was asked what weight he was, I'm answering, now we are into maths instead of opinions, it is interesting again, so my grip is fine thanks.

Interesting reading here..




			While most healthy horses can easily carry a rider and saddle, they do have their limits. Now researchers have identified a threshold for when a rider is too heavy for a horse to comfortably carry.

The scientists base their findings on detailed measurements taken of eight horses that were ridden while packing anywhere from 15 to 30% of their body weight. The horses ranged in size from 400 to 625 kilograms (885 to 1375 pounds).

When carrying 15 and 20% of their body weight, the horses showed relatively little indication of stress. It's when they were packing weights of 25% that physical signs changed markedly, and these became accentuated under 30% loads.  

The horses had noticeably faster breathing and higher heart rates when carrying tack and rider amounting to 25% or more of their body weight. *A day after trotting and cantering with the heftier weights, the horses' muscles showed substantially greater soreness and tightness.* Those horses that were least sore from the exercise had wider loins, the part of a horse's back located between their last rib and croup.

Based on these results, the study's authors recommend that horses not be loaded with greater than 20% of their body weight. A 545-kilogram (1200 pound) horse, then would be best off carrying no more than 109 kg (240 lbs) of tack and rider.

Interestingly, this research from the Ohio State University Agricultural Technical Institute has concluded with the same weight guideline that the US Calvary Manuals of Horse Management published in 1920.
Reference

Debra M. Powell, Karen Bennett-Wimbush, Amy Peeples and Maria Duthie. 2008. Evaluation of Indicators of Weight-Carrying Ability of Light Riding Horses. Journal of Equine Veterinary Science. 28(1): 28-33.
		
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Has there been a study on walking and the affects I wonder.


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## Flame_ (23 October 2012)

Cortez said:



			Lose some weight before you get back up. Make sure your horses (all of them, from the Big Fella to the small one) are fit, conditioned and able to carry your weight. THEN go riding. Make life easy (for your dearly beloved horses, and yourself), it's a no-brainer.
		
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I'm not disagreeing, I just want to make the point that race horses are frequently pushed to and beyond their physical limits, so are many other horses tbh. Horses all have their jobs to do for us and some are highly demanding and cause the horses serious wear and tear and injuries, even brood mares end up dipping in the middle and are being placed at risk of complications. Is carrying a fat hobby rider around for a bit really that damaging to horses compared to say racing, eventing or polo? I know, "they're conditioned, blah blah, blah.." but really so is the fat person's leisure horse, in so much as any horse can be conditioned to become accustomed to whatever it is we are wanting them to do for us. I think we're in danger of being quite hypocritical here having a problem with just one physically demanding equine job, IYSWIM?


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## Coldfeet! (24 October 2012)

Hey Waytail/Flame,

Good advice, I wont get back on him now, like i say I fell off the wagon big style, I have turned him away, I took all of his measurements before I turned him away (weight/bone/height/girth/length) and I can see he is going through a pretty good growth spurt, he has gone bum high, im 5ft 4 and I wont even get back on the scales now but Im going to get it back off again, I know I can do it again, I did it once for him and I will do it again.

Then next year I will re-do his stats and do the maths. 

I cant even look at a picture of myself on him, there is no point doing this until I can get back to where I was, let him grow on and mature etc. I will see what a bit more growth and maturity bring. 

I could ride him fat, and even though I am not skinny when I have lost weight I still feel its unfair to make him carry more than he is able because its selfish and wrong, which is why I lost weight. 

There was uproar among friends and family when this happened as everyone thought I worked so hard and did great and looked great and looked good on him but like I say doesnt matter what you weigh there is always some bu**er who thinks you are fat! LOL I didnt buy the saddle at the time as I didnt see the point but it was 1 16.5" saddle, correct me if I am wrong but this isnt an overly large saddle is it??


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## FfionWinnie (24 October 2012)

When you do buy a saddle buy else where!


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## Wagtail (24 October 2012)

Coldfeet! said:



			Hey Waytail/Flame,

Good advice, I wont get back on him now, like i say I fell off the wagon big style, I have turned him away, I took all of his measurements before I turned him away (weight/bone/height/girth/length) and I can see he is going through a pretty good growth spurt, he has gone bum high, im 5ft 4 and I wont even get back on the scales now but Im going to get it back off again, I know I can do it again, I did it once for him and I will do it again.

Then next year I will re-do his stats and do the maths. 

I cant even look at a picture of myself on him, there is no point doing this until I can get back to where I was, let him grow on and mature etc. I will see what a bit more growth and maturity bring. 

I could ride him fat, and even though I am not skinny when I have lost weight I still feel its unfair to make him carry more than he is able because its selfish and wrong, which is why I lost weight. 

There was uproar among friends and family when this happened as everyone thought I worked so hard and did great and looked great and looked good on him but like I say doesnt matter what you weigh there is always some bu**er who thinks you are fat! LOL I didnt buy the saddle at the time as I didnt see the point but it was 1 16.5" saddle, correct me if I am wrong but this isnt an overly large saddle is it??
		
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No it isn't! It would be too small for me and I'm slim. I currently weigh ten stone and when 9.5 stone used to regularly ride a 13.3 hh welsh section D. She coped no problem.


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## Achinghips (24 October 2012)

Coldfeet! said:



			Hey Waytail/Flame,

Good advice, I wont get back on him now, like i say I fell off the wagon big style, I have turned him away, I took all of his measurements before I turned him away (weight/bone/height/girth/length) and I can see he is going through a pretty good growth spurt, he has gone bum high, im 5ft 4 and I wont even get back on the scales now but Im going to get it back off again, I know I can do it again, I did it once for him and I will do it again.

Then next year I will re-do his stats and do the maths. 

I cant even look at a picture of myself on him, there is no point doing this until I can get back to where I was, let him grow on and mature etc. I will see what a bit more growth and maturity bring. 

I could ride him fat, and even though I am not skinny when I have lost weight I still feel its unfair to make him carry more than he is able because its selfish and wrong, which is why I lost weight. 

There was uproar among friends and family when this happened as everyone thought I worked so hard and did great and looked great and looked good on him but like I say doesnt matter what you weigh there is always some bu**er who thinks you are fat! LOL I didnt buy the saddle at the time as I didnt see the point but it was 1 16.5" saddle, correct me if I am wrong but this isnt an overly large saddle is it??
		
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Is this for real???


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## FfionWinnie (24 October 2012)

Achinghips said:



			Is this for real???

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Which bit?

Did you read the first post about the saddler telling her she was too heavy for the horse?


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## Coldfeet! (24 October 2012)

Hmm thats what I though, 

I tried a 17" and a 16.5" the saddler said there was nothing in it eally and the smaller one felt a bit more comfy, I suppose I can use another saddler when the time comes. 

hard not to take these things to heart when you feel on top of the world for getting it done and someone shoots you down in flames! LOL 

Thanks for the boost! 

Im back on the wagon!


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## Amymay (24 October 2012)

Fit to ride.  End of.


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## FfionWinnie (24 October 2012)

Coldfeet! said:



			Hmm thats what I though, 

I tried a 17" and a 16.5" the saddler said there was nothing in it eally and the smaller one felt a bit more comfy, *I suppose I can use another saddler* when the time comes. 

hard not to take these things to heart when you feel on top of the world for getting it done and someone shoots you down in flames! LOL 

Thanks for the boost! 

Im back on the wagon!
		
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You suppose??  I wouldn't want to give that person a penny if they were incorrect when you had worked out the percentages. Were you within 20%??


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## Coldfeet! (24 October 2012)

Achinghips it's so real my self esteem is in the dirt. 

I WISH it wasn't.


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## Coldfeet! (24 October 2012)

20%

Im not sure y'know!

I was 151 lbs he is 745 but i dont know the weight of the tack  which was synthetic and in that cold harsh reality I am probably borderline, not sure of the sum (maths isnt my strong point).

I will just have to wait and see he is a fab pony and I love him to bits, he is still growing so maybe we can still have a chance of being compatible. 

I think the point of my post was if people speak out about weight then it does shock the weight carrier into reality. Its hurts like hell but we have to acknowledge our fatness and if we love our horses we must work to put it right.


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## FfionWinnie (24 October 2012)

Coldfeet the thing is you said you looked gaunt at that weight so you were not fat.  You may have been too heavy for that pony, but that wasn't because you were fat. 

I think you are right to see how he develops, I can't remember how old you said he was then or what condition he was in. 

I think you are right about people watching what and how they say things.


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## Littlelegs (24 October 2012)

Coldfeet- its hard to really know without seeing the horse, I've met some immature scrawny Welsh ds who weren't up to much, & brick outhouse types too. At an average guess though, the majority are up to 11stone though. 
  Definitely try a new saddler though. Years ago my novice friend was getting a saddle fitted to her tank of a sec d. Saddler had been given a template & been told she wanted a good quality second hand leather one. Only one the saddler had that actually fitted was a 15.5", which was too small for my 5'6 10 stone friend. Saddler was telling her it was perfect for her, I stepped in & said it wasn't. At which point saddler began hinting about weight loss to fit the saddle, pony couldn't take much bigger etc. Funnily enough when she first arrived she was trying to sell her a 17" that did indeed fit beautifully, but was also a brand new albion & way over budget.


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## Coldfeet! (24 October 2012)

FfionWinnie,

Do you know, Ive never thought of it that way! makes more sense, all I could see throught the red mist was that I was too fat to ride a Welsh Cob! Its also not only about what people say but how you take it I suppose! 

He is 4, bum high and in good condition. He was very poor when I got him and its taken him a year to recover from that and being gelded which knocked him sideways so I feel he is still catching up with himself. 14.1hh bum is at 14.2hh just over so hopefully he will top out there and even higher. over 8" of bone and 745lbs

All I can do is wait and see and work on myself in the mean time.


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## FfionWinnie (24 October 2012)

Oh if he is a welsh D check out the welsh D transformation thread in the pictures section to cheer you up


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## Christsam (24 October 2012)

At the end of the day I dont know why people are still going on about this.  If you have to seriously question whether you are too big and have done the maths and are at the top end of the max weight or over then you need to stop riding that horse.  Big_Ben said she is 23 or 24% of max weight then posted the research notes that say that marked physical changes become apparent at 25%. so why are you still riding this horse?  Its not even about being fat or overweight.  Im small but there are still ponies I would be to heavy to ride so I wouldnt.  Simple as.


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## Coldfeet! (24 October 2012)

Littlelegs, really thats facinating! 

And shocking! 

Thank you x


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## Littlelegs (24 October 2012)

Don't panic too much, I imagine by the time you are back at your previous weight & he's mature you will be fine. I once backed & schooled a just 4 sec d, with my stirrups far shorter than I like as I was really too leggy for it. I then had a quick sit when it was 5, the difference was huge. Previously bareback my feet had been halfway between elbow & knee. Now, they are only just near elbow. And its not grown an inch in height or carrying more fat. It's just bulked out massively.


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## Big Ben (24 October 2012)

Flame_ said:



			Horses break down all the time. Because they were backed too soon, because they do too much schooling, because they don't do enough schooling and learn to use themselves properly, because we feed them imperfect diets, because they are hell bent on breaking their own necks, because we hack them on the roads, etc, etc.... 

The OP has a point, her horse has a job to do and at the moment its doing it, not unhappily if she's correct. Who's business is it in RL to tell her or anyone else what they should and shouldn't be doing with their horse?
		
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Ahh, so this is what it feels like on the other side of the debate, I did wonder, I guess you are all feeling the same outrage that I do when people proudly show their 2 year old who is already jumping and doing a day on the trails.



Sam_1985 said:



			Big_Ben said she is 23 or 24% of max weight then posted the research notes that say that marked physical changes become apparent at 25%
		
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Again, the study was done riding for longer and trotting and cantering, none of which Ben is asked to do under saddle. What changes would be seen if carrying 15% around a cross country course, or 10% out hunting all day. 

It makes you cringe to see me sit on Ben and walk him, it makes me cringe to see a horse cantered on hard top road, even with a small person on.



Coldfeet! said:



			FfionWinnie,

Do you know, Ive never thought of it that way! makes more sense, all I could see throught the red mist was that I was too fat to ride a Welsh Cob! Its also not only about what people say but how you take it I suppose! 

He is 4, bum high and in good condition. He was very poor when I got him and its taken him a year to recover from that and being gelded which knocked him sideways so I feel he is still catching up with himself. 14.1hh bum is at 14.2hh just over so hopefully he will top out there and even higher. over 8" of bone and 745lbs

All I can do is wait and see and work on myself in the mean time.
		
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I bet you will be surprised come spring, he may well blossom into a real chunk next year.


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## Clava (24 October 2012)

Big Ben said:



			It makes you cringe to see me sit on Ben and walk him, it makes me cringe to see a horse cantered on hard top road, even with a small person on.


.
		
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I'm not sure I understand the comparison? Most people don't intentionally canter their horses on hard top roads.


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## FfionWinnie (24 October 2012)

Coldfeet! said:



			FfionWinnie,

Do you know, Ive never thought of it that way! makes more sense, all I could see throught the red mist was that I was too fat to ride a Welsh Cob! Its also not only about what people say but how you take it I suppose! 

He is 4, bum high and in good condition. He was very poor when I got him and its taken him a year to recover from that and being gelded which knocked him sideways so I feel he is still catching up with himself. 14.1hh bum is at 14.2hh just over so hopefully he will top out there and even higher. over 8" of bone and 745lbs

All I can do is wait and see and work on myself in the mean time.
		
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I have body image problems too , I would have taken it exactly the way you did. Did you check out this thread 

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=569120

I think you will be grand once he has matured.


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## Big Ben (24 October 2012)

Clava said:



			I'm not sure I understand the comparison? Most people don't intentionally canter their horses on hard top roads.
		
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Unless out hunting, maybe the world has changed in the new fluffy era, but used to see it done a lot in the 'good old days'


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## Christsam (24 October 2012)

It makes you cringe to see me sit on Ben and walk him, it makes me cringe to see a horse cantered on hard top road, even with a small person on.

At no point did i say it makes me cringe.   if ANY PERSON is that much over the max weight they should think seriously about not riding.  Actually it makes me cringe as well to see a horse cantering on a hard top road so I am not quite sure why you are using this comparison.  And No, i do not do it as it is not good for the horse, no matter what my weight comparison is to the horses weight.


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## Clava (24 October 2012)

Big Ben said:



			Unless out hunting, maybe the world has changed in the new fluffy era, but used to see it done a lot in the 'good old days'
		
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Surely anything that damages a horse is not a good thing and to be discouraged, disapproving of one and not the other seems oddly selective unless of course, you do not believe that one is damaging.


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## Achinghips (24 October 2012)

Coldfeet, my question was in reference to your estimation that 16.5 saddle was big.  I'm riding in 18" and I'm 12 stone at 5' 2", I have long thighs though but am  very short knee to ankle, so I am now waiting for my made to measure to arrive, whicvh has 17" flaps. I'm also extremely muscular and fit (well, as fit as you can be and still smoke - oops!), so look smaller.  My lad is a gigantic half shire so he can quite happily cope - I was on the very edge with my Tb at that weight, esp as she had arthritis, so it was time for a change.

Welsh D's are beautiful horses, I used to have one myself - he was lovely and strong as an ox!  Generally speaking they can carry a large-ish weight, so don't worry.  Like others have said, he'll be a big chunk of a lad! and you WILL be fine, half the battle is your awareness of your weight, you have this and you will make any necessary plans.  I am sure you are fine


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## Christsam (24 October 2012)

Also, Big Ben what do you do under saddle with him then?  You say the research was trotting and cantering, none of which he does under saddle, but yet you do video dressage.  So presumably you at least trot in this and have to practice?


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## Christsam (24 October 2012)

Clava said:



			Surely anything that damages a horse is not a good thing and to be discouraged, disapproving of one and not the other seems oddly selective unless of course, you do not believe that one is damaging.
		
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Totally agree clava.


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## kerilli (24 October 2012)

Clava said:



			Surely anything that damages a horse is not a good thing and to be discouraged, disapproving of one and not the other seems oddly selective unless of course, you do not believe that one is damaging.
		
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Yes, precisely. I cringe watching horses in films, galloping flat out on roads or on tracks baked hard in the sun, just for the cameras... I wonder how long those horses lasted. I think most of us are unhappy about anything we see which is detrimental to the horses's welfare.


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## Wagtail (24 October 2012)

Sam_1985 said:



			Also, Big Ben what do you do under saddle with him then?  You say the research was trotting and cantering, none of which he does under saddle, but yet you do video dressage.  So presumably you at least trot in this and have to practice?
		
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You beat me to it! I was just going to try to find where she said that. I think there is a bit of back peddling going on...


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## Spring Feather (24 October 2012)

Cruelty to animals comes in many guises.  When cruelty is involved I always speak out.  If I were to meet the man on the Arab in real life I would have no qualms about saying to him that he is greatly exceeding the weight limit for that horse and if he did not refrain from riding the horse then I would call Animal Control without a second thought.   To the OP, I know you are in the early stages of dieting, I'm sure your horses will be much relieved.  I really do have to question the motives of your instructor though.  You say she will be paid whether you ride the horses or not; regardless, the trainer is no trainer I would ever employ at my stables.  She has quite clearly demonstrated her complete ignorance by suggesting you are okay riding your other fine-boned horse.


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## Big Ben (24 October 2012)

Sam_1985 said:



			Also, Big Ben what do you do under saddle with him then?  You say the research was trotting and cantering, none of which he does under saddle, but yet you do video dressage.  So presumably you at least trot in this and have to practice?
		
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I said, more than once I believe, that I was aiming to do dressage with him in the spring, currently we have practised enter at A, walk down centre line halt at X..........the rest of it we will be doing on long reins from the ground, no trotting from me until we are both fitter, the repercussions are to horrific, I've seen the knockersaplenty in action at a lighter weight, I don't think there is a bra on teh market that could keep their current voluptuousness from having earthquake like affects for several minutes


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## rodeo12 (24 October 2012)

Agree to disagree? It's all the same comments but just moving from different people who are catching up on the thread! A bit boring now . . . yes some of you think it's cruel but it's also clearly been stated things aren't going to change. Time to move on and find something else to do with your time? Those who think it's cruel, as soon as this topics stopped being bought up - you can go back to the saying ignorance is bliss and Bigben can carry on enjoying the horses whether it's on the ground or on top for a short ride. EVERYONES HAPPY - as much as you write comments on here it's really not changing the world so speaking your opinion isn't going to do much!


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## Littlelegs (24 October 2012)

Couldn't the same be said of every single thread & topic on here though rodeo 12? If you find it boring don't read it, just move on & find something different to do with your time. Everyone's happy, oh yeah, except the horses carrying too much which was the reason most of us are commenting.


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## rhino (24 October 2012)

rodeo12 said:



			Agree to disagree? It's all the same comments but just moving from different people who are catching up on the thread! A bit boring now . . . yes some of you think it's cruel but it's also clearly been stated things aren't going to change. Time to move on and find something else to do with your time? Those who think it's cruel, as soon as this topics stopped being bought up - you can go back to the saying ignorance is bliss and Bigben can carry on enjoying the horses whether it's on the ground or on top for a short ride. EVERYONES HAPPY - as much as you write comments on here it's really not changing the world so speaking your opinion isn't going to do much!
		
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It's a public forum, the whole point of it is that people can discuss things  Didn't realise there was a new ruling that all threads had to be of life changing importance...


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## Wagtail (24 October 2012)

rodeo12 said:



			Agree to disagree? It's all the same comments but just moving from different people who are catching up on the thread! A bit boring now . . . yes some of you think it's cruel but it's also clearly been stated things aren't going to change. Time to move on and find something else to do with your time? Those who think it's cruel, as soon as this topics stopped being bought up - you can go back to the saying ignorance is bliss and Bigben can carry on enjoying the horses whether it's on the ground or on top for a short ride. EVERYONES HAPPY - as much as you write comments on here it's really not changing the world so speaking your opinion isn't going to do much!
		
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On the contrary. I have changed few views regarding horses from taking part in discussions on this forum. A few others have too. Also, threads like this have spurred people on to losing weight. That can only be a good thing. If you are bored don't read it.


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## FionaM12 (24 October 2012)

Wagtail said:



			On the contrary. I have changed few views regarding horses from taking part in discussions on this forum. A few others have too. Also, threads like this have spurred people on to losing weight. That can only be a good thing. If you are bored don't read it.
		
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I have definitely changed my view of various topics in here. There have been times when I've argued my point, I've taken on board what other people have said and later changed it! 

I haven't been spurred on to lose weight here, but I have addressed Mollie's weight issues as a result of the forum.


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## Littlelegs (24 October 2012)

Actually big Ben, in your op you say you compete in dressage competitions, & have only ever had one comment. Now you say you are aiming to do so in spring, currently in practice. Which is it?


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## Flame_ (24 October 2012)

rodeo12 said:



			Agree to disagree? It's all the same comments but just moving from different people who are catching up on the thread! A bit boring now . . . yes some of you think it's cruel but it's also clearly been stated things aren't going to change. Time to move on and find something else to do with your time? Those who think it's cruel, as soon as this topics stopped being bought up - you can go back to the saying ignorance is bliss and Bigben can carry on enjoying the horses whether it's on the ground or on top for a short ride. EVERYONES HAPPY - as much as you write comments on here it's really not changing the world so speaking your opinion isn't going to do much!
		
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LOL, wait 'til the clocks change next week, threads can get dragged out and go round and round in circles for *a lot* longer than this. If you're bored, do something else! I'm not going to shut up just because you'd like me to.


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## FfionWinnie (24 October 2012)

Flame_ said:



			LOL, wait 'til the clocks change next week, threads can get dragged out and go round and round in circles for *a lot* longer than this. If you're bored, do something else! I'm not going to shut up just because you'd like me to. 

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Yeah I've been banging on since the start and I shall continue as long as it interests me


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## horseandshoes77 (24 October 2012)

well my 15.2 tb x carries 13 stone at min, altho rider is losing weight however i would not allow her to jump until shes under 12 stone altho mare is perfectly capable... shes only 4 will be 5 in june but shes quite short coupled and def not weak in the back..i use to worry about her carrying 10 stone but altho her new rider is heavier shes very balanced and rides well...mare seems happy enough and we have a well fitting saddle, however a girl neaday  r us was around 15 stone riding a fine tb who used to have to give the horse a few days off after shed ridden her as she was sore.... she took her jumping oneday and horse was crippled with back pain for 3 days after .. rider had no idea why  so i guess its just common sense !


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## Christsam (24 October 2012)

Sorry big ben but in you opening post you say

I  compete in video dressage competitions, and have only ever had one remark, and that was for my last test, when i had gained a lot of weight and lost condition, due to knee surgery back in the summer, and that was Cesar Parra saying "remember you need to be fit to ride dressage" totally valid point.

So, is your original post wrong?


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## Big Ben (24 October 2012)

littlelegs said:



			Actually big Ben, in your op you say you compete in dressage competitions, & have only ever had one comment. Now you say you are aiming to do so in spring, currently in practice. Which is it?
		
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OK I can see where the confusion comes in, let me see if I can make it clearer




Big Ben said:



			I compete in video dressage competitions, and have only ever had one remark, and that was for my last test, when i had gained a lot of weight and lost condition, due to knee surgery back in the summer, and that was Cesar Parra saying "remember you need to be fit to ride dressage" totally valid point.
		
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This is in the past couple of years, where I competed on my last boy through a range of weights as I went up and down, the Parra comment came on my July test, last one before giving up and going for surgery, so heavy, but have put on some more



Big Ben said:



			OK, people said I was brave sharing this pic, but I don't call it brave, I feel fine on this boy, my trainer says I'm fine, *he is still in training so we haven't been judged yet, but if he was ready I would compete him, Intro level dressage, maybe training.*

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Yes I did say that I would compete him, but the reality is he isn't ready, and nor am I, so I apologize for not being clear........it does say I would, but I haven't.

You may take this thread as evidence that I am usually honest, somewhat confused at times, possibly delusional, whatever else you want to label me as, but I really do not set out to lie, so there is no need for me to change tack.


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## Christsam (24 October 2012)

Confusion cleared


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## Trinity Fox (25 October 2012)

The fact this thread has gained so may comments just shows there is a real response to the topic, I have commented earlier in this and stated rider far too heavy for horses being ridden.

The only facts we have seem to lean towards not loading horses with more than 20 % of their fit bodyweight, all the dross about what horses used to carry or even more funny were bred to carry, horses were not born to carry any weight, we decided to take on their good nature to carry us.

The little research suggests 20% is a good guide, the rest is based on what they have done in the past, we used to send children up chimneys we do not do that now, we also used to sling working horses up so they could carry on working and they used to develop chronic conditions, in old literature they would describe breaking of the side bone , side bone is a ossification  in the foot in those days from over loading and stress.Horse were worked with any condition because the people were so poor they had no choice.
We have moved on a long way since then and horses as we well know are loving feeling creatures , if you want to ride your horse and you are too fat, the easy option is to loose weight this is not going to hurt you it is going to make you more healthy, be better for you for your family and your horse.
The only reason I can see for this kind of posting and while you are very personable and funny, is to get people to tell you it is ok to subject your horses to your weight, it is not it will never be, and if you truly wan't to ride and really care for your horse in the correct way it will never be, I wish I could tell you otherwise but if I am going to really be honest, then I cannot do that.
Horses being the size they are and having the power they do are such forgiving creatures, I do not think we should expect them to put up with our  failings.


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## Big Ben (25 October 2012)

Trinity, the responses, and the incredible number of viewings that the thread has does show the interest in the subject. 

The 20% guideline has been around since the days of the Calvary, when 20% was worked out to be a maximum load for horses working all day every day, presumably at mainly walk and trot on the flat. 

I wonder what the maximum load would be for a horse jumping, eventing, hunting etc, where the shock loading on the joints is increased with every effort?

Yes the horse was abused in the old days by people struggling to live and not being able to do any better by them. Horses are now abused in all sorts of different ways, talk to the barefoot people, they think people nailing shoes on are the devil, I was taking part in a debate on Facebook the other day and there was someone calling bits 'Instruments of Torture' refused totally to use the word bit. I hate the thought of horses standing in stables 23 hours a day, just going out for exercise once a day, but it happens. No I'm not saying that lots of wrongs make a right, but just that different people have different views on what is right and wrong, and where the lines should be drawn.

And again, NO this isn't about getting people to say it is OK to ride my horses, I know it is not OK to ride 2 of them, same way that I know it isn't OK to put my Arab in foal while I lose the weight Yes it was suggested by someone, and they couldn't see anything wrong with me breeding her just so she wouldn't be standing doing nothing for a year, best reason yet I've heard to have a foal *shakes head* I know I'm never going to get anyone here converted, and that's OK, I will carry on as I am, and from Monday every day will get a little closer to ideal, and when I lose that whole 20 pounds that will make me 20% of his weight, I will get on and gallop him everywhere because that will be OK then?  No of course I wont, but HEY I'll be at 20% so this argument will become null and void, and he will have had to tote 20 pounds extra around for a few hours out of his whole life, and yes I truly believe that will not cause him long term damage.

Yes I do also know that the 20 pounds is only the start of being 'acceptable' but it will be a start, a start of more serious work for both of us, and every week after that will be an improvement.


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## Trinity Fox (25 October 2012)

Yes you are right about the 20% starting from the cavalry days  but what you have not mentioned, is in fact the recent research that was such a surprise when horses carrying above this weight showed distress muscle fatigue, they also displayed increased heart rate, lactic acid in their muscles and general distress. Also long term problems , researchers were surprised this weight was so easily and early detected.

I do believe this was mentioned to some degree earlier in this thread, the fact somebody gave you some bizarre advice concerning putting a mare in foal does not distract from riding a horse you are far too heavy for.
I have as stated earlier in this thread no problem with anyone being as heavy as they wish or living any lifestyle they wish, as stated before it becomes a problem when you decide to inflict this on a horse who has no choice in your lifestyle or your weight.


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## Trinity Fox (25 October 2012)

Being a senile old coot I forgot to say the fact you try to justify the 20% rule by trying to rubbish when it was established , although it has since been proved to fairly accurate does sadly tell me you want us to agree with what you are doing.

As said before live as you wish but you are too heavy for your horses, if you really care for them do as I do diet and restrict yourself I am no Kate Moss but refuse to expect my lovely horses to have to put up with me carrying too much weight.


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## Big Ben (25 October 2012)

Trinity Fox said:



			Being a senile old coot I forgot to say the fact you try to justify the 20% rule by trying to rubbish when it was established , although it has since been proved to fairly accurate does sadly tell me you want us to agree with what you are doing.
		
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I'm sorry being cootish myself I can't see which way you are arguing, How do I justify the rule by rubbishing it??

The research was done back in the day, the new research has confirmed what the oldies said, so I am not rubbishing anything about it, I agree 20% for a working horse is good, I have stated my intention to get under the 20% before I ask much of him. You should all be happy.

The only thing we are in fact arguing about is the very few hours of walking work that he is going to be doing carrying 23% rather than 20% or below.

At 20% I still will be working slow and steady, as we still both increase our fitness.


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## PapaFrita (25 October 2012)

The way I see it... having missed 37 pages of debate is; 20% of the horse's weight at bog standard walk trot canter is NOT the same as 4* Xcountry, for example. Honestly people, get a bit of perspective!!!
That is all. Apologies from Malbec


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## Arabelle (25 October 2012)

PapaFrita said:



			The way I see it... having missed 37 pages of debate is; 20% of the horse's weight at bog standard walk trot canter is NOT the same as 4* Xcountry, for example. Honestly people, get a bit of perspective!!!
That is all. Apologies from Malbec 

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No, but a 4* cross country horse will be superbly fit and conditioned to get to that level, whereas a leisure horse could be very unfit and in poor condition.  

Also, a 4* rider will be  skilled and balanced, whereas a leisure rider could ride like a sack of spuds.

Big Ben, I really think you should focus on getting to 20% _before _you start riding.  As has been stated, 20% is the _maximum _safe weight, _not _the ideal.  At 20% you will still be at the top of the range for acceptable, which makes it entirely unacceptable to ask your horse to carry more.

As you plan to lose the weight, you should be able to ride at least one of your horses with a clearer conscience very soon.

Good luck


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## meesha (25 October 2012)

Just a thought, I have been following the thread with interested as I am no skinny but I am well below the 20% limit even with tack and was even before I lost weight.  OP have you taken your tack into account within the 20% calculation ? and the fact that the horse is unfit ?

tbh you have made up your mind and are trying to justify your actions - we all do that with things.  Take a look at someone you know is the same weight as you and ask yourself if you would be happy for them to sit on your horse, if the answer is yes then go for it!

you are very brave to post and sound like you are going to be trying soo hard to lose weight - but diets dont work ! are you going to diet for the rest of your life ?  I have abandoned diets, I now eat slightly more healthily - its taken 3 months to get a stone off but its stayig off and hopefully more will come off and I dont feel like I am dieting - I still have a takeaway on a sat night and treats occasionally but "occasionally" is the key - I also eat "normal" evening meal with my oh.  Quick weight loss is not the answer.

I wish you every luck as its a horrible position to be in, wanting all the weight to come off quickly but stay off - Good luck


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## PapaFrita (25 October 2012)

Arabelle said:



			No, but a 4* cross country horse will be superbly fit and conditioned to get to that level, whereas a leisure horse *could* be very unfit and in poor condition.  

Also, a 4* rider will be  skilled and balanced, whereas a leisure rider *could* ride like a sack of spuds.
		
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The key word being _could_ 
IMO if you're expecting your horse to gallop for 3-4 miles over 30 odd massive, solid fences, you owe it to your horse to be as fit and light as you can. Can think of at least 1 4* rider who is FAT- not just chubby or stocky, but fat. Fine if you want to pootle round the block, but NOT for the demands of eventing. But that's a whole different thread.


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## Amymay (25 October 2012)

Arabelle said:



			No, but a 4* cross country horse will be superbly fit and conditioned to get to that level, whereas a leisure horse could be very unfit and in poor condition.
		
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Well one would certainly hope so - but not always evidenced at some events.




			Also, a 4* rider will be  skilled and balanced, whereas a leisure rider could ride like a sack of spuds.
		
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Again you would hope so - but of course we know that is not always the case.


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## Big Ben (25 October 2012)

meesha said:



			Just a thought, I have been following the thread with interested as I am no skinny but I am well below the 20% limit even with tack and was even before I lost weight.  OP have you taken your tack into account within the 20% calculation ? and the fact that the horse is unfit ?
		
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Yes to tack, and in the pic he was actually reasonably fit having just returned from 60 days at the trainer, being ridden up hill, (well valley, Saskatchewan is blessed with negative topography, no hills only valleys) and down dale, rounding up cows and generally having a great time!




			tbh you have made up your mind and are trying to justify your actions - we all do that with things.  Take a look at someone you know is the same weight as you and ask yourself if you would be happy for them to sit on your horse, if the answer is yes then go for it!
		
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If they could ride yes, there is a trainer not to far away who is around the same weight, I would let him ride Ben, but only in walk and only for a short time.




			you are very brave to post and sound like you are going to be trying soo hard to lose weight - but diets dont work ! are you going to diet for the rest of your life ?  I have abandoned diets, I now eat slightly more healthily - its taken 3 months to get a stone off but its stayig off and hopefully more will come off and I dont feel like I am dieting - I still have a takeaway on a sat night and treats occasionally but "occasionally" is the key - I also eat "normal" evening meal with my oh.  Quick weight loss is not the answer.
I wish you every luck as its a horrible position to be in, wanting all the weight to come off quickly but stay off - Good luck
		
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Am I going to diet for the rest of my life, hell yes! I'm 55 so much of my life has been wasted by various events, illness, injury, yo yo dieting, waiting until I'm the right weight to do this that or the other, and looking back I always was the right weight

I did try abandoning dieting, with predicted results, someone said earlier about banning wheat, sounds like a plan. I have 2 issues, losing the weight, and maintaining. Losing I am fantastic at, have lost large amounts 3 times in my life, now going for number 4, it is stage 2 maintaining that I suck at. The one factor that is constant, low carb diets are the ones that allow me to lose, they  work, when others have failed. So the clue to maintaining is right there.

D-Day - 4 and counting, (although have already lost a few over the last few weeks)


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## meesha (25 October 2012)

well done you for the weight loss already - mine has levelled out so jogging will be introduced next week (someone yell at me if i dont do it !!) ! you know what works for you just keep it in moderation so you dont get fed up and fall off the wagon.


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## alainax (25 October 2012)

For maintenance ive heard of lots of people who have done really well on the few days on few days off kind of diet. 

So you can effectively eat what you like for 5 days, but for two you must have super low calories. In effect balancing out if you over ate during the "off" days. 

Possibly works due to the mindset - feels like your not on a diet, just eating **normally** ( ie not uber un healthy lol) and onlly have to do the "hard work" for two days. 

I think when I get back down to target ill try that way, will let you know if it works  

Ofc in the ideal world we would all eat exactly perfectly for our bodies needs, but for those who struggle with maintenance- this seems to work


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## Big Ben (25 October 2012)

Alainax I have seen that diet, I believe one of the Universities in the UK actually trialled it with good results. I think it sounds like a great plan for maintenance, probably closer to our original ways of eating

Some more advice, which forum is the best place to start a personal journal type of thing, to get the support and give me some accountability to help me kick start this new me?


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## Spring Feather (25 October 2012)

Big Ben said:



			Some more advice, which forum is the best place to start a personal journal type of thing, to get the support and give me some accountability to help me kick start this new me?
		
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This one!  There's few other forums around that will straight up say "you're too bloody fat for that horse!"   There's someone doing a kind of weightloss journal thread in Soapbox.  Maybe you can tag along


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## alainax (25 October 2012)

Spring Feather said:



			This one!  There's few other forums around that will straight up say "you're too bloody fat for that horse!"   There's someone doing a kind of weightloss journal thread in Soapbox.  Maybe you can tag along 

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Its very true actually, Im on a weight plan forum and its very very sweet, and kinda fluffy. If your looking for a kick start.. this lot sure dont hold back!


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## Big Ben (25 October 2012)

Spring Feather said:



			This one!  There's few other forums around that will straight up say "you're too bloody fat for that horse!"   There's someone doing a kind of weightloss journal thread in Soapbox.  Maybe you can tag along 

Click to expand...




alainax said:



			Its very true actually, Im on a weight plan forum and its very very sweet, and kinda fluffy. If your looking for a kick start.. this lot sure dont hold back! 

Click to expand...


Sounds good, I have enough fluffy!


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## Vicstress (27 October 2012)

I was very cynical about that diet until OH explained the science to me (studying medicine) and it does look good


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## Big Ben (28 October 2012)

Vicstress said:



			I was very cynical about that diet until OH explained the science to me (studying medicine) and it does look good
		
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I was cynical as well, and I hate the idea of synthetic food, but I have to see it as fuel, in fact it is a dream come true, as I dish out the dog food, the cat food, and feed the horses, I've always wished I could just dish out human food the same way, well now I can


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## Vicstress (28 October 2012)

Why are you eating synthetic food? The diet im talking about is 600 calories twice a week then normal eating other days!


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## FionaM12 (28 October 2012)

Vicstress said:



			Why are you eating synthetic food? The diet im talking about is 600 calories twice a week then normal eating other days!
		
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Maybe OP thought you were talking about the diet she's going on?


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## Big Ben (28 October 2012)

OOPs yes getting the diets mixed up, as you were people.


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## brighteyes (29 October 2012)

If a horse carrying 20% of its bodyweight trips and stumbles, the chances of recovery without further injury are what?  This to horse or rider.

For the rest of it, I'm with *Trinity Fox*


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## Big Ben (29 October 2012)

And if a horse carrying 10% trips over a fixed cross country fence?


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## Christsam (29 October 2012)

Big Ben, no offence or anything but why did you start this thread then?  You keep saying how it is bad if a horse carrying 10% is doing hard work etc and just trying to justify you being over the maximum that your horse can carry.  You ask when people should speak out but every time they do you try and dispel what they are saying?  This argument has been going on for ages now.  At the end of the day you are 3-4% over the maximum of what your horse should be able to carry without damage occurring to him.  Please dont try and justify it by saying those of us who are only 10% or so of the max weight are just as bad for doing more with our horses.


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## Big Ben (29 October 2012)

Sam, no offence taken, my original question was about real life people, face to face situations, not people on the internet, we can all make judgments about others based on one small glimpse of their lives we do it all the time.

I had actually thought that it had rolled on to a wider debate about all sorts of questions, as these things do.

I do not ask questions to defend the heavier rider, but merely to ask questions about other risks to horses health and well being. Whatever we do with our horses brings risk to human or horse or both, and for everyone you have to decide where that risk starts and stops.


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## PapaFrita (29 October 2012)

Big Ben said:



			And if a horse carrying 10% trips over a fixed cross country fence?
		
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We could (and probably will) go over this for days... weeks...  months. Fact is, SOME horses are sounder, FITTER, have better conformation and better balance than others. THESE horses are better equipped to carry heavier loads than other horses. The bodymass/weight/height of the horse is just ONE of several considerations and THEN we have to add how much work the horse is doing. Add to the equation the fact that SOME people ride like a sack of bricks and others don't, then THEIR weight is also ONE of several considerations. The variables are very very very many and there is no ONE definitive answer to how much weight any given horse should or could carry.


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## Big Ben (30 October 2012)

PapaFrita said:



			We could (and probably will) go over this for days... weeks...  months. Fact is, SOME horses are sounder, FITTER, have better conformation and better balance than others. THESE horses are better equipped to carry heavier loads than other horses. The bodymass/weight/height of the horse is just ONE of several considerations and THEN we have to add how much work the horse is doing. Add to the equation the fact that SOME people ride like a sack of bricks and others don't, then THEIR weight is also ONE of several considerations. The variables are very very very many and there is no ONE definitive answer to how much weight any given horse should or could carry.
		
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Great post, and kind of what I've been trying to say for a while, totally leaving aside my personal situation, there are so many variables of size, weight, fitness, of both horse and rider, and disciplines that we use our horses for, so often the answer is "It all depends"


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## lpeacock (12 February 2013)

There was a girl at pony club who was about 18/20 stone competing at a 2 day event I was doing. Her horse was in his 20's and she was going to jump the open course. They did not let her compete. 
I am definitely not skinny but asking a veteran horse (ex race horse) to compete over 2 days and jump open level jumps at her weight was too much and was a fair call but they were very discrete about it to avoid her unnecessary embarrassment.


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