# Should soya be banned from horse feeds?



## seabsicuit2 (6 December 2010)

There are a number of articles online about 'how awful is soya' - there are all sorts of problems associated with eating it, especially hormonal.
See here-
http://www.soyonlineservice.co.nz/

I know all the articles are about the effect on humans, but the initial research was done on animals. 

I have taken all my horses off their soya based feeds in a hurry,and I am epescially worried about my mare in foal! 

If this is true, it makes me rather upset that so many horse feeds have soya in them- when it is so dangerous. It must upset all the mares wether they are sport horses or broodies! 

Any thoughts or is this just scaremongering?!


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## kit279 (6 December 2010)

Scaremongering - not a single scientific study in there.  Any article that has to cite the magazine of Carotec Inc to back itself up is seriously scraping the barrel.  That is real Gillian McKeith stuff - a lot of waffle!  Don't panic and especially don't panic about the mare in foal - the Japanese are some of the healthiest people in world and they live off the stuff!


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## seabsicuit2 (6 December 2010)

Are you sure?!I do hope that you are right!! Its not just that article tho, there are 100's of articles out there, am now even more panicked about the mare in foal after reading this one-

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=soybean-fertility-hormone-isoflavones-genistein


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## kit279 (6 December 2010)

And yet again, not a single reference   Seriously, this is bogus!  The big studs feed soya - I wouldn't panic.


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## vallin (6 December 2010)

I more or less live of soya and quorn and I can't say it's ever caused me any problems!


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## 3DE (6 December 2010)

Soya is a good source of protein - especially important for a mare in foal... It's scare mongering - no actual scientific basis. Don't change the feed hun x


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## coreteam1 (6 December 2010)

When my boy was born (human boy, not foal ) he needed special milk.  I read up about Soya and steered clear as in males there were links to infertility.  Probably blown out of proportion, however Soya plays a 'major' role is so much we eat.  I do still try and avoid it but it's like anything, there is always a story for something?

Not at all sure how if at all it would effect horses?

My other boy is a gelding so wouldn't matter to much there


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## Tnavas (7 December 2010)

Definately should be banned - it is very toxic prior to being processed and unfortunately the processing is not good in itself - it has been seriously linked with infertility in women and premature maturity in young girls.

There is masses of literature on line regarding the problems it can cause.

I will not eat products with soy in them or give them to my animals. It is a cheap source of protein which is why it gets added to horse feeds along with wheat products which historically have been bad for horses. 

The only truly safe prepared soy is that which is prepared in the traditional Chinese way when it is boiled for the length of time it takes 3 joss sticks to burn down.

I've been saying for many years that I really feel that all the processed feeds are behind many of the metabolic problems affecting horses and ponies these days. We just didn't see them 40 years or so ago. Yet horses and ponies lived long and useful lives. We had few vitamin & mineral supplements - Cod Liver oil was around and Kossolian V5M which is still around today. Horse & Pony Cubes was the only processed food available at the time.


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## Tnavas (7 December 2010)

http://www.soyonlineservice.co.nz/03summary.htm

SOY DANGERS:

    * High levels of phytic acid in soy reduce assimilation of calcium, magnesium, copper, iron and zinc. Phytic acid in soy is not neutralized by ordinary preparation methods such as soaking, sprouting and long, slow cooking. High phytate diets have caused growth problems in children.

    * Trypsin inhibitors in soy interfere with protein digestion and may cause pancreatic orders. In test animals soy containing trypsin inhibitors caused stunted growth.

    * Soy phytoestrogens disrupt endocrine function and have the potential to cause infertility and to promote breast cancer in adult women.

    * Soy phytoestrogens are potent antithyroid agents that cause hypothyroidism and may cause thyroid cancer. In infants, consumption of soy formula has been linked to autoimmune thyroid disease.

    * Vitamin B12 analogs in soy are not absorbed and actually increase the body&#8217;s requirement for B12.

    * Soy foods increase the body&#8217;s requirement for vitamin D.

    * Fragile proteins are denatured during high temperature processing to make soy protein isolate and textured vegetable protein.

    * Processing of soy protein results in the formation of toxic lysinoalanine and highly carcinogenic nitrosamines.

    * Free glutamic acid or MSG, a potent neurotoxin, is formed during soy food processing and added to many soy foods.

    * Soy foods contain high levels of aluminum which is toxic to the nervous system and the kidneys.


SOY INFANT FORMULA &#8212; BIRTH CONTROL PILLS FOR BABIES

    * Babies fed soy-based formula have 13,000 to 22,000 times more estrogen compounds in their blood than babies fed milk-based formula.

    * Infants exclusively fed soy formula receive the estrogenic equivalent of at least five birth control pills per day.

    * Male infants undergo a &#8220;testosterone surge&#8221; during the first few months of life, when testosterone levels may be as high as those of an adult male. During this period, baby boys are programmed to express male characteristics after puberty, not only in the development of their sexual organs and other masculine physical traits, but also in setting patterns in the brain characteristic of male behavior.

    * Pediatricians are noticing greater numbers of boys whose physical maturation is delayed, or does not occur at all, including lack of development of the sexual organs. Learning disabilities, especially in male children, have reached epidemic proportions.

    * Soy infant feeding&#8212;which floods the bloodstream with female hormones that inhibit testosterone&#8212;cannot be ignored as a possible cause for these tragic developments. In animals, soy feeding indicates that phytoestrogens in soy are powerful endocrine disrupters.

    * Almost 15 percent of white girls and 50 percent of African-American girls show signs of puberty such as breast development and pubic hair, before the age of eight. Some girls are showing sexual development before the age of three. Premature development of girls has been linked to the use of soy formula and exposure to environmental estrogens such as PCBs and DDE


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## Mike007 (7 December 2010)

Yawn,.... another food scare in the making.


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## kit279 (7 December 2010)

I'll believe it when I see a reference that takes me to a double blind randomized control trial which controls for other risk factors (smoking, BMI etc) and is in a journal with an impact rating of more than 0.00001.  The magazine of Carotec ain't Nature or Science


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## Baydale (7 December 2010)

And how much is in your average bag of mix or cubes? I can't be bothered to go and look but I'd guess it's not a huge amount, or is that because it's so poisionous? 

It's the kind of logic my OH would use to his advantage: he's a vegetable dodger and has decided he now has a good reason to be as I eat loads of the stuff and have cancer, he doesn't and hasn't.


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## Mike007 (7 December 2010)

Simple fact,without soya ,a large percentage of the planet would starve to death. But why worry , we can afford other protein sources in the richer countries.


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## onemoretime (7 December 2010)

Baydale said:



			And how much is in your average bag of mix or cubes? I can't be bothered to go and look but I'd guess it's not a huge amount, or is that because it's so poisionous? 

It's the kind of logic my OH would use to his advantage: he's a vegetable dodger and has decided he now has a good reason to be as I eat loads of the stuff and have cancer, he doesn't and hasn't. 

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HI Baydale  I do hope you are going on OK.  I have been thinking about you since your last post regarding your treatment.  I dont know you but just wish you all the luck in the world for a speedy recovery.


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## WellyBaggins (7 December 2010)

Ditto ^^^^


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## loobylu (7 December 2010)

Friend has fed a yard of 30ish polo ponies (inc broodmares, youngstock and playing ponies) soya for years. Played off 5 and has worked for the Tomlinsons who also breed alot. I've only ever fed it to geldings so can't comment personally!


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## CrazyMare (7 December 2010)

kit279 said:



			I'll believe it when I see a reference that takes me to a double blind randomized control trial which controls for other risk factors (smoking, BMI etc) and is in a journal with an impact rating of more than 0.00001.  The magazine of Carotec ain't Nature or Science 

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This - to the word.


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## kezimac (7 December 2010)

well as i am veggie - i virtually live off quorn and soya, my horse is on soya flakes and is keeping her weight on - hasnt really changed her in any other way. So i not going to change anything.


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## Baydale (7 December 2010)

onemoretime said:



			HI Baydale  I do hope you are going on OK.  I have been thinking about you since your last post regarding your treatment.  I dont know you but just wish you all the luck in the world for a speedy recovery.
		
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Aw thank you, onemoretime. I'm fine, other than being hairless  and not always firing on all cylinders, but no-one said it was going to be easy. Tbh this snow is irritating me more than chemo.


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## Rollin (7 December 2010)

I don't know about horse feeds but am surprised it causes breast cancer.

When I had breast cancer I had unpleasant side effects from Tamoxifan and took Soya tablets and ate soya yoghurt.  The only comment my Oncologist made was that sufficient quantities to alleviate the side effects might cause stomach upsets.  In my case they didn't.

Is there evidence of higher levels of breast cancer in countries where soya is an important part of the daily diet?  like Japan and China?


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## stencilface (7 December 2010)

TBH, everything is bad for you now - one minute red wine is good, the next its bad.

May as well do most things in moderation  and stuff the rest.  Something has to get you at some point


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## Baydale (7 December 2010)

Tinselface said:



			TBH, everything is bad for you now - one minute red wine is good, the next its bad.

May as well do most things in moderation  and stuff the rest.  Something has to get you at some point 

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Exactly.  I'm more likely to get squished by a horse than die of breast cancer.


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## stencilface (7 December 2010)

Yep, or if you go to egypt, nibbled by a toothy fish


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## kit279 (7 December 2010)

Rollin said:



			Is there evidence of higher levels of breast cancer in countries where soya is an important part of the daily diet?  like Japan and China?
		
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No, actually the reverse is true - they have markedly less incidence


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## Orangehorse (7 December 2010)

Haven't read all the threads, but remembered this.  There was a report in the Economist magazine a few years ago - hardly a scaremongering publication.

There was a zoo somewhere in the world where they were trying to breed one of the big cats, leopards I think, yet nothing happened, yet in other zoos they were able to breed.
There was an investigation into their feed and the zoo removed some feed that had soya in it.  Bingo, they went on to produce cubs.  This animal is very susceptible to something in the soya which affected reproduction.

But I wouldn't worry about mare in foal, there must be thousands and thousands of healthy foals that have been born to mares fed with some soya product.

As an aside, it is extremely difficult for humans to avoid eating soya as it is in SO many products.


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## Salcey (7 December 2010)

Evelyn said:



			Definately should be banned - it is very toxic prior to being processed and unfortunately the processing is not good in itself - it has been seriously linked with infertility in women and premature maturity in young girls.

There is masses of literature on line regarding the problems it can cause.

I will not eat products with soy in them or give them to my animals. It is a cheap source of protein which is why it gets added to horse feeds along with wheat products which historically have been bad for horses. 

The only truly safe prepared soy is that which is prepared in the traditional Chinese way when it is boiled for the length of time it takes 3 joss sticks to burn down.

I've been saying for many years that I really feel that all the processed feeds are behind many of the metabolic problems affecting horses and ponies these days. We just didn't see them 40 years or so ago. Yet horses and ponies lived long and useful lives. We had few vitamin & mineral supplements - Cod Liver oil was around and Kossolian V5M which is still around today. Horse & Pony Cubes was the only processed food available at the time.
		
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Totally agree with this both with human and animal feed


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## andraste (7 December 2010)

Evelyn said:



			The only truly safe prepared soy is that which is prepared in the traditional Chinese way when it is boiled for the length of time it takes 3 joss sticks to burn down.
		
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It's cutting edge science like this that'll convince me...


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## seabsicuit2 (7 December 2010)

I would dearly love to believe the whole 'its a load of tosh' but I do think that there must be something in this. Its a cheap and unnaturally made product and certainly not natural for humans/animals to eat it?There is a very large porportion of soy in most horse conditioning/stud mixes/cubes ( the ones that i have looked at so far- 2nd biggest ingredient )

Fair enough that all the studs/mares are currently eating it and have supposedly been safe on it for a decade or so, but what about all the ones that weren't that we don't know about. Maybe the foals /mares that were fed this could have been born stronger/better. Who knows?

The Japan/China argument is all very well but some are saying that they have a completly different form of soy over there and a very different way of proccessing it before eating it?

Kit I agree, those articles shouldnt be believed until one can find a report written from a more reliable source, but as i say no smoke without fire!


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## onemoretime (7 December 2010)

Baydale said:



			Aw thank you, onemoretime. I'm fine, other than being hairless  and not always firing on all cylinders, but no-one said it was going to be easy. Tbh this snow is irritating me more than chemo.

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Glad to hear you are coping.  This snow is really getting me down as well, the yard tap keeps getting frozen and we then have to cart water which is really annoying and heavy!!

Hope you will soon come out the other side.


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## stencilface (7 December 2010)

seabsicuit2 said:



			I would dearly love to believe the whole 'its a load of tosh' but I do think that there must be something in this. Its a cheap and unnaturally made product and certainly not natural for humans/animals to eat it?[\QUOTE]

Am I missing something - I thought soy beans were a natural food stuff? Much the same as any other bean, but just more widely used?
		
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## 3DE (7 December 2010)

Tinselface said:





seabsicuit2 said:



			I would dearly love to believe the whole 'its a load of tosh' but I do think that there must be something in this. Its a cheap and unnaturally made product and certainly not natural for humans/animals to eat it?[\QUOTE]

Am I missing something - I thought soy beans were a natural food stuff? Much the same as any other bean, but just more widely used?
		
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You're right - it's no more unnatural than pressing orange juice or making cheese 

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## Mike007 (8 December 2010)

A lot ,in fact most seeds contain a lot of undesirable substances. Especialy beans. However there is no perfect food and we have adapted to live on many such foods. I think there would be somthing pretty sick about banning soya in horse feeds while we expect two thirds of the world to live on them as a protein source.


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## Tnavas (8 December 2010)

Tannenbaum said:



			It's cutting edge science like this that'll convince me...

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That is evidently the traditional way the Chinese timed the preparation of soya - they probably didn't have a watch and I guess a joss stick took a certain length of time to burn. Unfortunately now in modern production plants they use chemicals and other stuff to turn it to a useful product.

Ever wondered how your tinned mandarins get to be minus the white pythy skin? First, the segments are scalded in hot water to loosen the skin; then they are bathed in a lye solution which digests the albedo and membranes. Finally, the segments undergo several rinses in plain water.

A lot of wierd things are done to our foods to turn them into edible products. Turning an oil to a solid for spreading on your bread? The oils may be good for you but the result of the processing isn't


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## Baydale (8 December 2010)

Evelyn said:



			Ever wondered how your tinned mandarins get to be minus the white pythy skin?
		
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Nope, never.


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## Mike007 (8 December 2010)

Mandarins ,dont have a problem with that , of course calling it lye might frighten some but that is plain old sodium hydroxide, nasty when concentrated but no toxic effects.


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## Mike007 (8 December 2010)

Evelyn, your posts seem to hint at some sort of big business conspiracy against us ,so on the principle of fairness I would point  out that you are from a country whose principle exports are Sheep and dairy products. Skimmed milk being of course the substitute in terms of protein quality ,to soya. And of course when talking about the hydrogenation of oils to produce margerine ,who is the competitor?Why good old newzealand butter!You see conspiracy can be seen everywhere!


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## Baydale (8 December 2010)

Evelyn said:



			That is evidently the traditional way the Chinese timed the preparation of soya - they probably didn't have a watch and I guess a joss stick took a certain length of time to burn. Unfortunately now in modern production plants they use chemicals and other stuff to turn it to a useful product.

Ever wondered how your tinned mandarins get to be minus the white pythy skin? First, the segments are scalded in hot water to loosen the skin; then they are bathed in a lye solution which digests the albedo and membranes. Finally, the segments undergo several rinses in plain water.

A lot of wierd things are done to our foods to turn them into edible products. Turning an oil to a solid for spreading on your bread? The oils may be good for you but the result of the processing isn't
		
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Joking apart - and because I have insomnia  - it's clear that eating foods in the most natural state possible is the healthiest option, and that applies to humans or horses. 

I'm a fairly healthy eater - eat when I'm hungry, stop when I'm full - but when I eat processed/artificially sweetened foods they don't satisfy me the same way as a lump of full-fat cheese or meat do. (I had a funny turn and my eyesight went peculiar when I pigged a whole packet of Haribo once, so I try not to do that too often...) I do wonder with the many and varied feeds available nowadays whether there's a similar effect on horses. All our hunters and eventers get soaked oats, Alfa Oil, boiled barley and linseed and ad lib haylage (unless they're really fat). They all look disgustingly well, have bags of energy, no behavioural problems and 99% of the time eat up, hunting mornings being the exception.

I've gone off topic a bit - sorry - but what I'm trying to say is that modern ain't necessarily better, soya could just be this year's villain and before you know it we'll all be scaremongered into buying The Next Big Thing.

*Baydale trundles off to plan world domination of the horse feed market with her very own Soya-Free Feed*


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## Mike007 (8 December 2010)

Baydale said:



			*Baydale trundles off to plan world domination of the horse feed market with her very own Soya-Free Feed*

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Mike sidles over to baydale and offers her a moody shipment of best Newzealand skimmed milk, no questions asked please!


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## Baydale (8 December 2010)

Mike007 said:



			Mike sidles over to baydale and offers her a moody shipment of best Newzealand skimmed milk, no questions asked please!
		
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*Baydale receives said shipment, dries it, re-names it Anti-Soya and uses it in her Superduper Soya-Free Feed*


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## Mike007 (8 December 2010)

Baydale said:



			*Baydale receives said shipment, dries it, re-names it Anti-Soya and uses it in her Superduper Soya-Free Feed* 

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Mike quietly slides back to Switserland to bank his money!


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## Tempi (8 December 2010)

If everyone believed all the cr*p you hear/read we (and our horses) would starve to death.....


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## Tnavas (8 December 2010)

Mike007 said:



			Evelyn, your posts seem to hint at some sort of big business conspiracy against us ,so on the principle of fairness I would point  out that you are from a country whose principle exports are Sheep and dairy products. Skimmed milk being of course the substitute in terms of protein quality ,to soya. And of course when talking about the hydrogenation of oils to produce margerine ,who is the competitor?Why good old newzealand butter!You see conspiracy can be seen everywhere!
		
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Mike I'm English! but have lived in NZ for 23 years because it is a really lovely place to live. Our meat is free of chemicals as the lambs live out on grass and don't get fed any grains or mixes. The cows live out 24/7 and apart from drought times live totally off grass.

There is much proof that Soy and margerines and spreads are not good for you. Doesn't bother me in the least as to what people eat but it does bother me when I see children and horses/ponies affected by the foods they are given when there are healthier alternatives.


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## Tnavas (8 December 2010)

Mike007 said:



			Mike quietly slides back to Switserland to bank his money!
		
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Mike & Baydale both have a smart sense of humour. 
Once drank a can of Mellow Yellow and couldn't sit still for hours after - had to leave the cinema my muscles took on a life of their own and drove me insane because all they wanted to do was move. Coca Cola does the same thing to me but not to such extremes. If I drink it late afternoon I can't sleep all night and when I do I have the most horrendous nightmares.


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## Steorra (8 December 2010)

Oh dear! LOL at Mike and Baydale.

...you have reduced me to saying lol, where will this end, 'tis the curse of the HHO forum...

On a serious note, it seems to be the processing method rather than the food itself that (might) be a problem.  I often find myself drowning in a sea of information when it comes to food choices, some of it useful, some of it white noise, some of it just plain wrong.  Depending on how you look at it and who you believe, soya is a healthy low fat protein source, an artificial substance packed full of hormones, a food with too high an environmental cost...unfortunately you can say these things about more or less every single source of protein available.  Meat, fish, milk, beans, even many of the grains that vegans use as a protein source could not be sustainably grown if we all wanted to eat them.  

So what do we do?  If we banned all the potentially problematic foodstuffs in the world then there would be nothing to eat - for us never mind our horses.


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## ihatework (8 December 2010)

Tempi said:



			If everyone believed all the cr*p you hear/read we (and our horses) would starve to death.....
		
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PMSL!!! So true!
SB, I probably wouldn't get too paranoid about a bit of Soya


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## FlashHarry (8 December 2010)

I believe there is evidence that eating a significant quantity of soya protein has been shown to protect you from breast cancer.


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## Tnavas (8 December 2010)

FlashHarry said:



			I believe there is evidence that eating a significant quantity of soya protein has been shown to protect you from breast cancer.
		
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http://www.soyonlineservice.co.nz/03summary.htm

SOY DANGERS:

* Soy phytoestrogens disrupt endocrine function and have the potential to cause infertility and to promote breast cancer in adult women.

An excerpt from the details in the link above!


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## Ponder (9 December 2010)

I read this headline with interest as my 26-year-old mare has an intolerance to soya. She had consumed feeds with soya in but it was not until I tried pure soya oil that I realised there was a problem. It made her very itchy, especially her inner hind thighs. I now in the process of coming off the balancer I was feeding with soya in so then her diet will be mostly soya free. It is very hard to find any feed for her as she also has problems breaking down too much sugar, garlic has the same effect as soya and she has a problem retaining too much calcium carbonate. Also, need to watch pocket!
Therefore, if soya was banned for whatever reason, I would be quite happy.


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## theboysmommy (10 December 2010)

I shall be reading that article more thoroughly.  I have an underactive thyroid and eat quorn occasionally as I don't like meat.  If it's not good for us then why give it to animals also.  I know that something has got to get you but I prefer fresh fruit and veg and hate processed food. YUK!

Baydale.  Hope you have a speedy recovery.  xx


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## sunsplash1970 (15 September 2013)

The Japanese only eat unprocessed soya, unlike the Americans and Europeans who mess with all food of all kinds.


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## sunsplash1970 (15 September 2013)

Probably should be. I failed to get my mare in foal again after her last foal in 2007 and since reading hundreds of articles and research on soya causing infertility in equines and humans concluded that my feeding her it whilst she was racing for 7 seasons probably caused her lowered fertility.  My sister-in-law has also failed to get pregnant, various tests did not reveal anything out of order, she still cycled but did not produce folicles, she then told me she is allergic to dairy products (cows) and had since very young about age 3 been on soya milk, cream, yogurts. She came off them for 2 years before having two rounds of IVF, sadly these failed too, damage too great and gave up at age 39.


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## MandyMoo (15 September 2013)

kit279 said:



			I'll believe it when I see a reference that takes me to a double blind randomized control trial which controls for other risk factors (smoking, BMI etc) and is in a journal with an impact rating of more than 0.00001.  The magazine of Carotec ain't Nature or Science 

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agreed.


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## Penny Eater (15 September 2013)

sunsplash1970 said:



			The Japanese only eat unprocessed soya, unlike the Americans and Europeans who mess with all food of all kinds.
		
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I thought in Asia they only ate fermented soya (eg soy sauce, miso) as this process removes the phytates? I won't use soya because most is GM.


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## onemoretime (15 September 2013)

deleted.


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## Orangehorse (15 September 2013)

Is that why Japanese people are small ( or that politically incorrect?)

I was at a lecture 15-20 years ago by a famous Professor- you would recognise his name - who mentioned the oestrogens in soya milk maybe affecting baby boys.

Also, and this was reported in The Economist,at a zoo some of the big cats were not reproducing, so they looked carefully at the diet and removed soya products, and they started to have babies from then on.

However, I feed a balancer that has soya as the main protein, rather than oats or wheat, and my horse has had this for the past 12 years with no ill effects!  Nor would I expect any.  It is slightly worrying that there is soya in viturally all processed food that humans eat - bread, cakes, etc.


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## MagicMelon (15 September 2013)

Well I've been on soya milk and yoghurts for the past 4 years now due to developing a dairy intolerence. I've had no issues...

I very much hope these issues aren't correct as I've had my son since being on soya, he also seems to have a dairy intolerence too so he is also on soya yoghurts.

I think, if you research ANY food enough then you'll find "against" arguements.


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## amandaco2 (15 September 2013)

My big horse is on toasted soya and soaked oats plus veg oil. His weight has gone up nicely and his bare hooves are great. Unless I read something of scientific evidence I will carry on...


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## sarahann1 (15 September 2013)

This is a proper Zombie thread....


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## weebarney (15 September 2013)

Soya certainly hasn't affected my fertility and I have eaten it most days for the past 15 years.


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## Baggybreeches (16 September 2013)

Baydale said:



			And how much is in your average bag of mix or cubes? I can't be bothered to go and look but I'd guess it's not a huge amount, or is that because it's so poisionous? 

It's the kind of logic my OH would use to his advantage: he's a vegetable dodger and has decided he now has a good reason to be as I eat loads of the stuff and have cancer, he doesn't and hasn't. 

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Quite a lot. Take it from someone whose horses (and sheep) graze on Soil Association accredited land, if we didn't feed soya then it would make feeding our animals extortionate. I have to get assurances that I feed non- GM soya in my feed and the only company that guarantees this is Allen & Page. The fact that the farmer spreads muck from several local yards on the growing fields is irrelevant (and I bet none of them have a certificate from A&P!)


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