# Are working cockers 'madder' than springers?



## Patchworkpony (25 November 2015)

I keep hearing that working cockers are a lot 'madder' than Springers - is this true? I have only had Springers in the past but do love the working cockers. I wonder what people's experience of these two types of spaniels is.


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## Alec Swan (25 November 2015)

If for the word 'Mad' we use the words 'Focused and Driven',  then we may accept what the individual dog is about.

I've had both 'hard case' Springers and Cockers and though they are often different in their approach to life,  'generally' I'd say that the Springer can be the most determined.  Such dogs are the reason why we keep these breeds,  and the greater the challenge,  so the greater the reward!

'Hard-going' dogs have been my bread and butter and are what support my interest.  The archetypal Springer and Cocker are quite different in their approach,  and each have their attractions and devotees.

Alec.


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## PorkChop (25 November 2015)

I have springers that aren't mad and are working dogs 

Cockers that I see out working aren't any more bonkers when they are working, however they don't seem to be able to switch off between drives, they also have a phobia of staying on the floor!

If you fancy one then go for it


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## Dry Rot (25 November 2015)

Working cockers used to be hyperactive and hard headed -- which is understandable when they were bred to penetrate dense Devon bramble patches to flush woodcock and pheasant. But I suspect much of that has been bred out of them (pity!).

Cockers were (are?) tough working dogs and easy to train IF you install the brakes early on -- and I mean from about 8 weeks! First, get them to Sit before getting the feed bowl, then Sit when they see a rolled tennis ball, and so on. A check cord used sparingly is the best tool.

Keith Erlandson defined a working cocker as being "sent from Hades with burning coals for eyes to torment mortal man".


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## ihatework (25 November 2015)

Following with interest as I'm just starting to think about breeds for my next dog.
Very high up the list is a spaniel (likely cocker) but I'm just concerned I might end up with a nutter.
Are there any generalisations that can be made regarding breed lines / colours that could pre dispose a dog to being more suited to an active pet rather than full on working (or is it just pot luck mixed in with training?!)


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## stormox (25 November 2015)

If you want a dog for a job, a cocker is not 'mad', just has a high prey drive modified for retrieving. They are brilliant at what they are bred for, as are springers. They  also love flyball, agility, anything that need focus and energy. But if you want a quiet sofa-hound, I would advise you NOT to get a working cocker.


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## ester (25 November 2015)

I have several friends with working cockers, all 'go to work' with their owners (in tractor etc) but none are used for shooting. All are lovely dogs and been pretty easy to train.


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## Carlosmum (25 November 2015)

My son is 2 weeks away from collecting his working cocker pup.  It is his intention she will spend much of her time with him on the farm & in the tractor.


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## Suzie86 (25 November 2015)

ihatework said:



			Following with interest as I'm just starting to think about breeds for my next dog.
Very high up the list is a spaniel (likely cocker) but I'm just concerned I might end up with a nutter.
Are there any generalisations that can be made regarding breed lines / colours that could pre dispose a dog to being more suited to an active pet rather than full on working (or is it just pot luck mixed in with training?!)
		
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My show type cocker is for me the perfect active pet - we also have 2 working springer bitches and he is completely different. Loves a long walk and keeps up with the girls all day long, but switches off the second he's back home and spends the rest of his time snoring on the sofa and is unbelievably lazy!

I'd love a working cocker one day though! I must admit I don't personally think they are as nice to look at as the show type not that it matters


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## Clodagh (25 November 2015)

Weh ave mainly springers on the shoot but one cocker, a liver boy who has won working trials. He is a saint and a joy and I say to his owner that if all dogs were like him no one would own anything else. However, I suspect many, many hours of training have gone into making him the dog he is. He makes the springers look low energy!
He can sit on the peg (although normally beats) but seems to hover 3" off the ground with his ears defying gravity and sticking out sideways. He never moves an inch though.


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## Patchworkpony (25 November 2015)

ihatework said:



			Following with interest as I'm just starting to think about breeds for my next dog.
Very high up the list is a spaniel (likely cocker) but I'm just concerned I might end up with a nutter.
Are there any generalisations that can be made regarding breed lines / colours that could pre dispose a dog to being more suited to an active pet rather than full on working (or is it just pot luck mixed in with training?!)
		
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 Ditto! I want a cocker BUT not a nutter that never relaxes.


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## blackcob (25 November 2015)

Patchworkpony said:



			Ditto! I want a cocker BUT not a nutter that never relaxes.
		
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Consider a show type cocker (shocker as opposed to wocker?!) - ours will take as much or as little exercise as you please, he can manage a full day out with the sibes but is equally happy to snooze at home. The only down side is the coat maintenance, you'd have to weigh up whether the more predictable temperament is worth the grooming/clipping.


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## Alec Swan (25 November 2015)

I'm wondering if those who want a working bred Cocker,  which 'may' well have the capacity to be difficult when it has no worthwhile roll in life or a route by which can expend its energy,  wouldn't be better to look for a breed which is perhaps less demanding.  Sadly,  since Wills and Kate acquired one,  they seem to be the latest 'must have'.  With my last litter of pups which were by the 2013 Championship winner,  and out of a FtChxFtCh bitch,  I surprised myself by turning down a young couple who have a holiday home here which they visit 3 times a year,  if that,  and a flat in Kensington.  They didn't even have small children for the dog to bite,  I mean,  I ask you! 

There are plenty of very poorly bred Cockers on the market at the moment,  and as these fads seem to be cyclical so the wrong person buys the wrong dog and for the wrong reason.  ALL work bred dogs place demands upon us,  and that's it!  Are we all ready for those demands?  Some will be,  but many won't.

Alec.


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## ihatework (25 November 2015)

If I went cocker it would have to be working rather than show, I can't warm to the show ones.

I've done agility in the past and would be keen to start again, I also live in the countryside and go out beating/picking up ad hoc with the local shoot.
Ideally dog would also come out hacking with the horse.

I have a lab currently and have been completely spoiled by him, he is pretty angelic.
I want something smaller next time though


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## spacefaer (25 November 2015)

Cockers tend to be brighter than springers - if you ask a springer to go into a dense bit of cover, he'll go and bash through it, come back and tell you it was empty.  Cockers will look at it, check out to see if it's worth the effort, then look at you to tell you that you are mad to ask.

We have working cockers - they are brilliant companions, with never ending energy - but given focus, they are incredibly rewarding. Without focus, I would imagine they would drive you mad!

Our guys do have a job to do - the older pair had their first grouse the other day - and the night after they have been working, they are delightful....... fast asleep and snoring. Days they haven't been out, working or training, they are ....... let's just say energetic !!


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## Patchworkpony (25 November 2015)

[QUOTE- if you ask a springer to go into a dense bit of cover, he'll go and bash through it, come back and tell you it was empty.  Cockers will look at it, check out to see if it's worth the effort, then look at you to tell you that you are mad to ask.QUOTE] I love it!


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## Karran (25 November 2015)

Mrs Spaniel is a working Cocker. I have to admit i was a bit apprehensive about taking her on (especially as i'm in London and work all day) and there are some days where i just think "for Gods sake leave me alone!" But those days are few and far between and on the whole i think she's pretty manageable.
Most days she has at least 90 minutes walking, she comes up to the yard three times a week and we go flyball on Sundays.
Sundays do tend to be the only day she is well and truly calm but that's our busiest day - an hours walk, an hours flyball, two hours at the yard and then a quick half hour burst round the woods, All before lunch! 
I do try and keep her engaged with silly tricks and things but you definitely notice it when she's not had enough mental or physical stimulation.
She always loves to play, is at our sides like glue and always ready to leap from her bed to follow us.
But at the same time she is happy to be left all day, she will sit in her basket and the minute i sit on the floor she is on my lap for a snooze and definitely would be there dozing all the time if we let her on the sofa.
She is very intelligent and it doesnt take her long to work out if its in her favour to do something and then becomes a quivery, squeaky ball of enthusiasm.
She can be a bit stressy about life (and being separated from us if she knows we're around) and hates the rain. 

I love her to bits, but am unsure of her breeding, maybe we just got lucky! But i def would consider another working cocker after her.


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## Cinnamontoast (25 November 2015)

I think it totally depends on the individual. Cockers are so similar to springers that they're only separated by size, historically. The working cocker I know is very focused, but so are my pet bred springers. I very deliberately chose the docile pup who let me manhandle him, the OH chose the lively, naughty one and they're exactly the same now. Choose the pup carefully with the breeder's help and let them know what you want.

Focus: 

http://youtu.be/pZR2l_IQmlI


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## Alec Swan (25 November 2015)

cinnamontoast said:



			&#8230;&#8230;..

Focus: 

http://youtu.be/pZR2l_IQmlI

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Are the dogs in the film yours?

Alec.


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## stormox (26 November 2015)

Cinnamontoast,I think there are a lot of differences between springers and cockers apart from size. The way they move is different, especially when quartering. Springers have a different movement in the tail and back end.
Personally I find you can have a great difference between individuals of the same breed, even in the same litter. I think cockers are slightly more sensitive to train than springers, and bitches more sensitive than dogs. 
I would steer away from show cockers- anything that is selectively bred for looks has usually lost its brains and trainability. I have also known a couple of show cockers (both golden) who have been extremely food possessive, to the extent of aggression. But whether this is temperament or upbringing I cant say, as they were'nt mine.


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## RunToEarth (26 November 2015)

In my experience, working cockers are the harder of the two to train, and they seem to take everything personally, although they do make good dogs with a proper job to do. I agree with Alec, it's sad the breed has got so fashionable.


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## monte1 (26 November 2015)

in answer to your question, our gamekeeper has four springers and generally I think his are more "mad" than my cockers )

interesting thread though, we have three working cockers, they are related - I have mum, son ( kept pup from our last litter) and also we have his uncle- all work beating and picking up during the shoot season and are all quite different personalities, they are very active and driven and certainly need a job to do.( would not be content with a quiet lead walk twice a day!)

Mine are also our much loved pets and live happily in the house with us and they are great companions

I think that Prince William and Kate  getting one made the breed very fashionable and many people bought one on a whim not realising the effort and time it takes to train them properly as they can be hard work!


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## Luci07 (26 November 2015)

a friend has one. She lulled other friends into a false sense of security as it turns out her WC is not normal!. As a result of this (exceptionally well behaved) dog, 4 more have been bought. They are ALL extremely high energy and really really hard to wear out. They are really lovely dogs, great fun but need a serious amount of exercise to keep them sane. All the people love their dogs, not one will buy another WC again!


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## ponyparty (26 November 2015)

The clue is in the name "working" - if you intend to work your dog, get a working strain. If it is going to be a family pet, get show type. This is what the lady who runs our dog training classes has said from day one. She says they have a huge number of people coming to them with working cockers and working springers, who had no intention of working them, and the dogs get out of control because they aren't given enough stimulation (both physical exercise and mentally).
I'm sure you know your stuff when it comes to dogs, think carefully before you take the plunge though because getting one "because you like them" without considering what they were bred for and how high their drive will be, is just not fair to the dog.
Happy puppy hunting


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## northernnewfiediva (26 November 2015)

RunToEarth said:



			In my experience, working cockers are the harder of the two to train, and they seem to take everything personally, although they do make good dogs with a proper job to do. I agree with Alec, it's sad the breed has got so fashionable.
		
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we would totally agree with this, springers, even complex ones are generally much less prone to long term obsequious offence! My husband says that a good cocker is nearly as biddable/trainable as the average springer! That's not to say they are not great fun, hard working little dogs. We have had them kennelled and as house/working dogs with little difference, my husband finds their seemingly in built leaping and spinning pretty offensive - and no, its not because we can't train them! Not for the faint hearted or for those of a nervous disposition!


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## Dry Rot (26 November 2015)

The more hyper the dog, the earlier I would start the training. So, my earlier suggestion that cockers need to be trained from an early age. Not a lot of good knowing that, of course, if you've already got your dog and then discovered it is one of the hyper ones! But that's what pedigrees are for.


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## Alec Swan (26 November 2015)

With spaniels,  regardless of breed,  the 'hard' dogs,  as growing pups should be obvious.  The problem when we start too early with them is that we can restrict their further development.  I have to resist the temptation to 'stop' them,  whilst I've had many youngsters come in which should perhaps have been 'stopped' a little earlier.  Rearing pups has a certain 'art' attached to it,  and despite my advancing years,  I continue to learn.  Equally,  'stopping' a dog is relatively simple but once the obedience bit is over-cooked,  so we can end up with a dog which though it may outwardly appear to be a dog under control,  is in reality stifled and spoiled.  

With all well-bred working spaniel pups,  we tread a very narrow line.  Knowing when to apply pressure and correct them is a fairly precise business,  and one which,  with every individual pup,  often occupies my thoughts.  Most dogs which are ruined are those which are started too soon,  in my view.  There is no prescribed format,  every dog is different.

Alec.


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## Cinnamontoast (26 November 2015)

Alec Swan said:



			Are the dogs in the film yours?

Alec.
		
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Hey Alec, yes, that's Bear going out first then Zak to the left. You can see Zak doesn't move well, bad hips. They're currently doing a cool trick, sitting as the OH walks away, then moving off to retrieve from a silent signal from a distance. They have a lot of training, Zak needs entertaining because he's a clever little git.


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## Clodagh (27 November 2015)

cinnamontoast said:



			Hey Alec, yes, that's Bear going out first then Zak to the left. You can see Zak doesn't move well, bad hips. They're currently doing a cool trick, sitting as the OH walks away, then moving off to retrieve from a silent signal from a distance. They have a lot of training, Zak needs entertaining because he's a clever little git.
		
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They looked great, good video, well done. 
I love the fact you are panting while filming it! Holding another dog perhaps?


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## Dry Rot (27 November 2015)

Alec Swan said:



			With spaniels,  regardless of breed,  the 'hard' dogs,  as growing pups should be obvious.  The problem when we start too early with them is that we can restrict their further development.  I have to resist the temptation to 'stop' them,  whilst I've had many youngsters come in which should perhaps have been 'stopped' a little earlier.  Rearing pups has a certain 'art' attached to it,  and despite my advancing years,  I continue to learn.  Equally,  'stopping' a dog is relatively simple but once the obedience bit is over-cooked,  so we can end up with a dog which though it may outwardly appear to be a dog under control,  is in reality stifled and spoiled.  

With all well-bred working spaniel pups,  we tread a very narrow line.  Knowing when to apply pressure and correct them is a fairly precise business,  and one which,  with every individual pup,  often occupies my thoughts.  Most dogs which are ruined are those which are started too soon,  in my view.  There is no prescribed format,  every dog is different.

Alec.
		
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I agree totally. Which is why dog training will remain an art rather than a science.

How many working gundogs do we see that either have brilliant natural ability but no control or comply with instant obedience to every pip on the whistle but haven't a clue when it comes to hunting and finding game? The art comes in getting both in the same package -- then you have that elusive quality "style". I spent the best part of a lifetime working out WHEN to instal the various components involved in the training of a dog and it is mostly about timing. Don't the Jesuits say, "Give me the boy and I will give you the man"?

Train cockers young or live to regret it would be my advice. That doesn't mean their hunting has to be controlled from a young age, rather the opposite, and for that reason "hand training" (Sit, come to call, retrieving, ec) needs to be done initially in the complete absence of game. I'd go as far as to say a dog should not be checked in the field. If there is a fault (chasing, etc), wait until later, go back to the training field, and work on that fault. A trained dog does certain things automatically without thinking. If it hesitates and has to think before doing what it is told, it isn't trained. I am convinced that some of my dogs (the better trained ones!) were convinced that the act of slapping their bottoms on the ground was what killed the bird, not the shot! (The novices here might want to know that dogs are often trained to Sit or Drop when they flush game. It puts them one more step away from chasing and redirects behaviour into something positive).


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## Patchworkpony (27 November 2015)

Thanks everyone - very sound advice from you all. Sadly I think I'm now too old for a working cocker and the show ones just don't appeal nearly so much. I have noticed an awful lot of young springers etc. up for rehoming on Preloved. Obviously people have found they are a nightmare, especially when they work all day and leave the poor dogs locked up. Some in cages!!


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## ihatework (27 November 2015)

Yes, thank you too. I'm still up for the challenge I think, and will keep an open mind as to a WC or a small springer.


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## Alec Swan (27 November 2015)

Dry Rot said:



			&#8230;&#8230;.. dog training will remain an art rather than a science.

&#8230;&#8230;..
		
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I've never really considered it before,  but you raise an interesting distinction,  and rightly in my view.  Applied as an art,  then that makes allowances for the temperament of both the dog and the trainer,  and importantly for a shifting of applications.  Unless I've completely misunderstood the arguments of applying science to dog training,  then it would seem to me to be structured in such a way that a path is laid out as a 'one route fits all',  which of course,  it can't.

An excellent post,  specifically the point when a dog will be one step removed from riot!  'Discipline',  as you suggest needs to have a purpose.

Alec.


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## ihatework (27 November 2015)

Alec Swan said:



			I've never really considered it before,  but you raise an interesting distinction,  and rightly in my view.  Applied as an art,  then that makes allowances for the temperament of both the dog and the trainer,  and importantly for a shifting of applications.  Unless I've completely misunderstood the arguments of applying science to dog training,  then it would seem to me to be structured in such a way that a path is laid out as a 'one route fits all',  which of course,  it can't.

An excellent post,  specifically the point when a dog will be one step removed from riot!  'Discipline',  as you suggest needs to have a purpose.

Alec.
		
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And probably very similar to horses and dare I say it Children. The ability to train (on both sides) is obviously important, but also the ability to recognise personality traits and make training adaptions accordingly. A combination of skill and art I suspect.


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## Cinnamontoast (27 November 2015)

Clodagh said:



			They looked great, good video, well done. 
I love the fact you are panting while filming it! Holding another dog perhaps?
		
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PMSL! That's probably Brig, the older one, definitely not me! :biggrin3:


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