# licensing stallions



## silver_ghost (18 June 2007)

hi
have just invested in a 2 year old colt. could anyone tell me how i go about getting him a stallion licence so that he can be used for breeding purposes and showing as a part-bred coloured stallion.
thanks x


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## Fahrenheit (18 June 2007)

You will have to take him to a Stallion Grading, each society have different restrictions and rules so you''lll have to contact them for the info you require, i'd imagine as he's coloured your best contacting BSPA (British Skewbald and Piebald) or CHAPS (Coloured Horse and Pony), other society are SHB(GB) (they only grade 3yo upwards) AES (they do grade 2yo) or you could go NTR which is around £400 and they send out a vet to vet your horse and if it passes the vetting you can issue NTR covering certificates but effectively this is for stallions that haven't graded else where as it doesn't have a proper grading process, there maybe an age restriction of 4yo + but i'm not certain of that.
Good Luck.


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## airedale (18 June 2007)

add that please change the word 'invest' in your original post to 'spent money on'

so you have a 2yr old coloured horse

what is it's breeding ?
why should anyone want to put their mare to it?

you no longer need a DEFRA license to stand a stallion

have you got your own facilities?
do you know anythign about standing a stallion at stud?
have you got the wherewithall to send it to a stallion station to stand?
would a stallion station WANT to stand this 2 yr old? 

you haven't 'invested' - you've bought a coloured colt and hope that some mugs will send their mares to it and earn you a few quid irrespective of whether your horse has 4 wooden legs

sorry - it's monday - and I hate coloured horses - but if you feel the need to ask teh question you have then perhaps you shouldn't have bought the colt......

I'm being blunt - but then I'm known for that...!!


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## Lynne21 (18 June 2007)

Which society is he registered with? Some societies will not licence without the horse passing a grading and some only need a vet to come out and inspect them in order to issue a licence if they pass (ie no obviously bad conformation defects, 2 testicles present, soundness of the eyes, heart etc.) I would get in touch with the society he is registered with and ask what they require - I am assuming that the colt is registered with someone and worth breeding from.


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## Fahrenheit (18 June 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
 2 testicles present 

[/ QUOTE ]

Lol - Two testicles aren't always necessary you know - not when you have an accident and damage one sooo badly it has to be removed! Doesn't stop one I know constantly providing enough semen to inseminate 10+ mares at each collection, leave him an extra couple of days and he will sometimes give you enough for 30 insemination doses!


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## Partoow (18 June 2007)

Totally agree with Airdale. There are far too many stallions about that should not be stallions a 'good' horse, one that is 'nice' and goes well, is NOT enough to make a stallion.
Grading is important and helps keep the standards. your horse not only needs to be well bred, well marked, exellent conformation, super temperament and it needs to really be going undersaddle.
SHB[gb], grade 'coloured' horses and are a member of the world breeding federation that adheres to strict rules and standards.
Stallions need to be special in every way to be of value to the gene pool.
Breeding is a labour of love not one of making lots of money through' wham bam ' thank you mam.
I would like to think that you have something special, and your not being nieve, if so really you need to wait a bit but work him so that he is ready to be presented in a year or so time when he has justifyed his 'genetic value'.


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## Lynne21 (18 June 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
Lol - Two testicles aren't always necessary you know - not when you have an accident and damage one sooo badly it has to be removed!  

[/ QUOTE ]

They do need to be present at the time of a veterinary inspection in order to get a licence though. Or you have to prove that they did both descend and that one has since been removed as a rig will not be licenced.


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## Fahrenheit (18 June 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Lol - Two testicles aren't always necessary you know - not when you have an accident and damage one sooo badly it has to be removed!  

[/ QUOTE ]

They do need to be present at the time of a veterinary inspection in order to get a licence though. Or you have to prove that they did both descend and that one has since been removed as a rig will not be licenced. 

[/ QUOTE ]

I know a stallion with 1 that got life graded, he has one for the reason mentioned. He did have a full 5 stage vetting and the vet did comment on the missing one. The studbook were also fully informed on the matter before attending the grading. My comment wasn't meant as a serious debate (hence the  
	
	
		
		
	


	












) I was just making a light hearted remark on 2 plums aren't always necessary in certain circumstances!


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## mat (18 June 2007)

airedale dont be so mean! that was their first post!!


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## magic104 (19 June 2007)

It has to be agreed that there are a lot of graded coloured stallions that would not now pass the tests.  You have not given any info on this colt but BSPA email bspashow@aol.com would be a good contact for you.  You state he is a PB but PB what?  People are not necessarily going to use him just because he is coloured if there is no guarantee of a coloured foal.  I would also suggest you go along to some of the gradings so you can see what is expected &amp; what the judges are looking for.  I am sure no one means to sound negative especially without knowing all the facts.


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## Chambon (19 June 2007)

Mmm, I think Airedale has a point though!


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## Fahrenheit (19 June 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
airedale dont be so mean! that was their first post!! 

[/ QUOTE ]

I wasn't brave enough to say that... 
	
	
		
		
	


	





As we don't know the intentions of the OP for what they want to do with their colt other than get a license, (they could be just looking at covering their own handful of mares for all we know, thats how I started it worked out more economical for me to buy and keep a stallion than to send my few mares away to stud every year) at least it appears they are looking at how to get graded and hopefully not just planning to have another ungraded entire horse. If they attend a grading at it doesn't pass, hopefully they will consider having the snip!


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## airedale (19 June 2007)

didn't notice it was their first post - oops

but the word that got to me was 'invested' - and we all know that horses are better dressed and better shod than the humans that own them

you don't 'invest' in a horse - you sacrifice all you (not spare) cash on them !!

so if the OP thinks the coloured colt is an 'investment' then either it's something so wonderfully special that it's cost shedloads of dosh and is by top sire X out of fantastic mare Y (in which case I'd have expected that to be mentioned as a selling point);

or they are going to suffer from the old saying "fool and money are soon parted"

I did say - it was monday and I am blunt ;-)

and if they have bought the colt as an 'investment' then do they know how to handle it and house it 

too many studs leave colts as colts as it costs x hundred quid to geld them - so why pay that when the purchasers can do it instead - but then Im also a cynic...


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## TURBOBERT (19 June 2007)

I really dont understand the current fad for coloured horses.  People pay a ridiculous amount of money for a mediocre horse just because of its colour irrespective of its conformation, paces or temperament!  Oh and why are there special classes?  Probably because they would not get anywhere against real competition! Maybe there should also be special classes for chestnuts, greys and bays..........totally illogical


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## airedale (19 June 2007)

Oh I am SO glad you said that instead of me

I did restrain myself but it was so hard to pull my fingers away from the keyboard and stop myself posting almost the exact same words !!!


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## severnmiles (19 June 2007)

Hang on though Airdale...who would have ever kept Jumbo entire..he was a cheap £750 purchase and to my mind doesn't scream class yet look what he's produced.

Breeding is about improving on what you're breeding from.  Having worked for one of the largest UK Trak studs its fair to say some on the best, correct and out of this world looking/moving stock is end of line and doesn't improve on itself, whilst you get a a mare thats foot turns out, moves averagly(spl?) and confo is OK yet produces the first trak colt to grade in this country for 7 years!  

Mill Law covered 180 mares last year alone-you do the maths...thats surely an investment...


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## magic104 (19 June 2007)

Yes we know, &amp; it is being addressed as far as the stallions are concerned &amp; the grading of mares.  They set up their own society to combat the negative comments from "colour blind" people.  Though I agree that it has gone too much the other way, a horse is as good as it does regardless of colour.  I would say that they have been very sucessful in marketing themselves &amp; if people are stupid enough to pay over the odds just because it is "coloured", WB or Fresian then so what, not my money &amp; does not affect me in the least.  I would say for every bad coloured horse there is a bad solid coloured animal bred, so even stevens really.


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## airedale (19 June 2007)

jumbo sold on his ability not necessarily his flashy looks - but then a lot of heavier breeds of horses like Irish Drafts or even (ducking) C. Bays - are not as 'ooooh look at me' 'cute' as other breeds, e.g. Trakehners

I also am totally against this idea of covering hundreds of mares by the same stallion

we ended up with an awful mess in TB breeding when every other stallion and mare were Northern Dancer and then Saddlers Wells - people were scratching around trying to find something to cross out to

The same will happen with Darco bloodlines - everyone and their aunt sally seems to want to have a Darco colt - and you had the same with King of Diamonds in Ireland

It's really another facet of the greed of our society 

there used to be a ruling that stallions only covered a max. of 40 mares a year but that's gone by the board now - perhaps it should be considered again???

You don't need to cover 180 mares a year - if your stallion is that popular and that brilliant then put the stud fee up - that is what happens with TBs


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## magic104 (19 June 2007)

From what I have seen stud fees do go up.  Demonstrator started at 250 ended up at 1k before dropping.  Jumbo started at 250 as well, once he had stock proving themselves his stud fee started to go up.  The market is dictated by what people are buying.  If the equine mags/websites are showing offspring by a certain stallion fetching x amount more then the next stallion then mare owners are going to take that into consideration.  If the offspring are then proving themselves out in the show ring/competition arena then again mare owners are going to take that into account which is what happened with KOD's for instance.  Then because they cover more mares the chances of getting offspring that will perform will also increase.  If a stallion covers 100 mares he is going to stand a better chance then if he covers 40.


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## ColouredFan (19 June 2007)

Thats a slight exageration! I have only ever bought my horses because of their temperment, conformation and performance, the fact that they are coloured is a bonus to me, if everyone liked the same colour horse we would have a problem, its personal preferance and I dont think you should put people down because you dont agree with their personal preferance.  I do however agree that too many coloured colts are being kept entire because of their colour and for no other reason, but its all down to supply and demand at the end of the day, hopefully people will take more than the colour into account when choosing a stallion.


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## silver_ghost (19 June 2007)

he carries a welsh passport,, we were told hes crossed with a belguim warmblood? bought him from a local horse auction not because of colour or breeding because he has a fabulous temprement and needed a loving home,, only looking at getting him graded as we don't see the need to have him cut,, if it turns out he is suitable for breeding then that is a bonus


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## Fahrenheit (19 June 2007)

If he's WPB then I think you need to contact WPCS and talk to them about stallion grading (I know nothing about WPCS grading/licensing) he could end up being quite small as a WPB if he stays under 15.2 you could take him to SPSS (Sport Pony Studbook). All studbooks have differnt requirement so its best to contact a few and see which suits you best, I have a WPB mare myself and she is graded head studbook SHB(GB), on her passport she is by a HIS stallion but the WPCS only put the pedigree of Welsh horses in their passports so it only looks like she got half a pedigree but she hasn't, (HIS is the old name for SHB(GB)) so it might be worth you looking into the Warmblood side and getting it over stamped with the society that the WB belongs to - good luck.


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## airedale (19 June 2007)

If you don't have a full 3 generation pedigree then your boy will not get a full covering certificate - certainly not from the SPSS as he's of 'unknown breeding'

tbh I'd save yourself teh money and get him cut and enjoy him as a nice horse if hes something you've 'rescued' from the market.

as others have said - stallions related to other 'well known' stallions, e.g. Darco, will add value to their stock - another example are Jumbo sons. 

As your horse is of unknown pedigree he will not have this to help him and getting him graded won't add that much if he's of unknown breeding


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## severnmiles (19 June 2007)

He doesn't really sound like stallion potential, you don't really keep something entire because it has a nice temp.  Really you'd want it to have papers and be of known breeding on both sides.  Good conformation, movement e.t.c  And an ability to excel in any given sphere (whether thats showing/dressage/jumping e.t.c).

Have you got experience with keeping a young colt?  And the facilities?  You'll probably have to extend his fields fencing to 6ft+ as he grows up.

Personally I'd get him cut before he realises what is between his legs.


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## magic104 (20 June 2007)

I don't want to be negative here, but if you dont know his breeding, then I dont see why you would want to even consider breeding from him.  This has been said so many times, but breeding is a lottery, therefore breeding from a horse/pony of unknown breeding is like breeding from a mongrel dog.  You will have no idea of temperament, size or the outcome.  Yes WB's can be described as mongrels, but the breeding is known, you will have records of height, colour etc.  It is a big enough gamble when you (and I have done) use a mare of unknown breeding.  Even full siblings are known to appear with different temperaments, sizes etc.  So there is no guarantee that breeding from the same parents will result in the same type being bred.  If you ever do use him on a mare you may well find that his temperament changes.  This is why a lot of competition horses never cover a mare, &amp; only do AI.  This way they never actually recognise a mare as something to "hump" excuse the expression!!  At the end of the day I think it is barmy for anyone without the experience of colts &amp; stallions to even contemplate keeping one of unknown breeding entire.  But he is your horse and it is not for any of us, to tell you what to do with him.  At the end of the day Jumbo's dam Betty never showed any recorded breeding for her dam only the sire Seven Bells


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## Lynne21 (20 June 2007)

I believe that the WPCS only need the colt to pass a veterinary examination and do not require that he be graded but..... I echo what everyone else has said, why would you want to breed from him? If he was a good specimen then he wouldn't have been at a market waiting to be 'rescued'. Having said that, I know someone who rescued a section A colt at a local sale, lavished him with TLC and food, showed him (and won!) and sold him for a pretty penny as a 3yo as a licenced stallion!! But cases like these are few and far between and she did have years of experience and a good eye for 'raw material'.


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## ColouredFan (20 June 2007)

As nice as your horse sounds i wouldnt consider him a stallion prospect on temperment alone. Alot of factors need to be taken into consideration breeding being one of them. Save yourself the hassle and expense, have him cut and enjoy him.


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## Fahrenheit (20 June 2007)

Ive had this problem with my mare that was WPB, the WPCS will not put in the pedigree of the parent that isn't Welsh only the name, luckily for me the sire was HIS so I toddled off to SHB(GB), got her overstamped and put the mare forward for grading she went Head Studbook and all her progeny get full breeding papers because the sire has a full pedigree just the WPCS won't acknowledge non welsh pedigree. It could be very possible that the horse has a full pedigree and with a little effort you can get it acknowledged like I did.
I have to agree though the youngster doesn't sound like its going to be 'stallion material' but what do I know I haven't seen him.


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## Ciss (21 June 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
didn't notice it was their first post - oops

but the word that got to me was 'invested' - and we all know that horses are better dressed and better shod than the humans that own them

you don't 'invest' in a horse - you sacrifice all you (not spare) cash on them !! [ QUOTE ]


Actually investing in a horse is exactly what professional breeders do do! It's what differentiates them from hobby breeders and the decisions they make are often very long-term becuase they know how long it will be before the real payback comes. Whilst I agree that the merits of a coloured Belgian X Welsh 2 year old colt might appear to be somewhat debateable on the surface IF the Belgian side was a Zangerheid jumping line and the Welsh bit was say a Machno Cadwen close relative then there might be a little more merit in it. 

What I am trying to say here is that the breeding industry -- and the decsions people have to make in it -- is far more complex than some would have us believe and I have to say that even after 30 years involvement in it I am still learning.  As someone who 'invested' in a 2 year old stallion that eventually, through considerable further investment, became a very high level dressage horse (with a related increase in his value ) and who has just returned to the ranks of potential stallion owners with a 2 y old bought for a specific purpose to fill a niche in the market that I had identified after considerable research, I do not think that investment should be dismissed as a concept quite so quickly.

Of course there are other kinds of investment (time, emotion etc) that all breeders (let alone stallion owners) whether professional, large, small or hobby have to make   every time they buy or breed an animal so even Airdale is an investor in this sense of the word, which was perhaps the one meant by the OP.


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## Partoow (21 June 2007)

Had someone like Airedale made the comment that she had 'invested ' in a two year old stallion then i would agree with your post.
This however is about the perils of the  un-initiated picking up A N colt from a 'market' because ....well goodness only knows the reality of it but mostly because she was sorry for it.
So this cannot be called investment just because its an entire.The reasons behind it being left entire probably has more to do with the original owner/breeder could'nt be bothered to spend the money on gelding it!
I see this a lot with the Iberians where there are far too many stallions about that really should'nt be. Lets also think about the poor animal. Its a lonely life even for stallions like mine who have their own paddocks and are in the main body of the yard and work around other horses their life is still solitary so who would condem a herd animal to such a lonely life and for what?? 
I appreciate your knowledge on this matter and you obviously are a valuable member of the British Breeders community but i think on this occation we can safely say this really is a case of accept it as a nice horse who has more value as a good riding horse not a breeding prospect even if it is 'coloured'.


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