# BOGOF! Where do I stand on this and wwyd?



## Doormouse (11 November 2014)

Please help people, real dilemma here.

In May I bought a section a pony for my daughter through free ads. Lovely people, very professional, pony only 7 but safe as houses, perfect for my 2 year old daughter to grow with, easy to keep as young and no lami or cushings problems. We had a lovely summer doing little bits with her but I really struggled to get the weight off her, she arrived fat and despite my very determined efforts, remained that way.

Fast forward to now, surprise surprise, she is in foal. I had had my suspicions for a while but confirmed today. No idea what it is by and no idea of timings. I have contacted the sellers who say she was out on loan before coming back to them to sell so will have to contact the loan home to find out more.

Where do I stand? I have zero facilities for a mare and foal, my daughter now hasn't got anything to ride next summer and I am going to be stuck with an ankle biter that has no value at all. Can I ask that the sellers take her back? Would anyone buy her in this condition? What on earth do I do? I am so sad, the pony is an angel, I am very worried about the potential size of the foal and even more worried about how I would manage them on my livery yard that is full of big horses.


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## *hic* (11 November 2014)

Well if you want a purely practical solution to the problem your daughter is tiny, she's going to be walking and trotting only and weighs nothing so she could keep riding right up until just before delivery - you're hardly going to have a tot out for hours at a time. Then as the foal turns up have it pts and dry the mare off. It's not the most pleasant solution but it's probably the cheapest, assuming nothing goes wrong with the foaling and keeps your daughter riding.


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## Doormouse (11 November 2014)

jemima*askin said:



			Well if you want a purely practical solution to the problem your daughter is tiny, she's going to be walking and trotting only and weighs nothing so she could keep riding right up until just before delivery - you're hardly going to have a tot out for hours at a time. Then as the foal turns up have it pts and dry the mare off. It's not the most pleasant solution but it's probably the cheapest, assuming nothing goes wrong with the foaling and keeps your daughter riding.
		
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You make an extremely good point and to be fair my daughter only rides about once a week at the moment due to weather and daylight hours. The pony is currently being a nanny to my 3 year old, living out and it all works very well.

As you say, not a pleasant solution but probably a realistic one especially with the number of unwanted horses already. Question is, would I be able to go through with it?


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## Dave's Mam (11 November 2014)

That is harsh, but sadly the very real solution.


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## Rhodders (11 November 2014)

wow I couldn't look at a wee foal and have it murdered just because it shouldn't have really been born


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## Sandstone1 (11 November 2014)

Rhodders said:



			wow I couldn't look at a wee foal and have it murdered just because it shouldn't have really been born
		
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Me too.


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## Jinx94 (11 November 2014)

Elliesmemory1 said:



			Me too.
		
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But if the OP doesn't have the facilities to keep this foal which in the current market is incredibly unlikely to sell, and bearing in mind that the OP doesn't want a foal and did not knowingly buy the mare in foal, surely it is the best option?


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## bakewell (11 November 2014)

You could probably get it aborted right now.
Not pleasant, but avoid size of foal/ delivery at full term danger. However the uterus is generally the deciding factor for the size of a foal at birth.
Have you had her scanned?


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## Doormouse (11 November 2014)

Rhodders said:



			wow I couldn't look at a wee foal and have it murdered just because it shouldn't have really been born
		
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In principle I couldn't agree more and also very cruel to the mare but the harsh reality is what life will that foal have? It will be unregistered, parentage on one side unknown, who would want it? Maybe someone with their own land perhaps but it would be no use as a companion as a weanling really, like all small ponies as it gets older lami is a potential threat so management is harder. It's a long way from 6 months old to 4 to be broken as a child's pony. How many just broken or unbroken small ponies do you see advertised for a pittance? Hundreds. Do they all get nice homes? Probably not. I keep my horses on a livery yard, there is no provision for a mare and foal, I will have to pay as soon as that foal arrives another £60 per month for at least 6 months and that is even if I can persuade the yo to make a secure place for them to live during that time.

Having said all that, faced with a tiny healthy foal could I do it? The real answer is very probably no.


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## Doormouse (11 November 2014)

bakewell said:



			You could probably get it aborted right now.
Not pleasant, but avoid size of foal/ delivery at full term danger. However the uterus is generally the deciding factor for the size of a foal at birth.
Have you had her scanned?
		
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I think it is probably too late to abort, she looks pretty far gone. I am kicking myself now for no insisting that the vets blood test in the summer when I suspected something but they made me feel so silly when I suggested it and the sellers also said it was impossible that I crumbled in a pathetic fashion and left it be. Won't make that mistake again.

I haven't had her scanned yet, will be the next stage I guess to determine timings of arrival.


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## YorksG (11 November 2014)

If she is a first time foaler,it is unlikely that the foal will be too big at delivery. I would discuss the options with the vet, sooner rather than later.


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## Orangehorse (11 November 2014)

This is grim.  But if the foal died at birth it would be the same.  You have to keep the pony in a stable for a few days and a bit short of food and water "cruel to be kind."  After a few days the milk will dry up and the mare will be fine again.  

If you decide that this is the best thing could you get someone else to do the deed, so you don't have to be there?


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## Doormouse (11 November 2014)

Jinx94 said:



			But if the OP doesn't have the facilities to keep this foal which in the current market is incredibly unlikely to sell, and bearing in mind that the OP doesn't want a foal and did not knowingly buy the mare in foal, surely it is the best option?
		
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That's the thing, facilities. My current yard would potentially be dangerous for a mare and foal of that size. I have no stable for her, no barn and the only possible field is the pony paddock which is occupied by another section a gelding and a section d mare who can be aggressive. They can't go anywhere else as they get lami very easily and I wouldn't feel at all safe making an electric fence pen in one of the big fields with the other horses in case anyone escaped and one of the horses kicked the pony or the foal, could be the end of either of them.


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## bakewell (11 November 2014)

If it's under 4 months (which stands a fairly good chance of being the case but vet can confirm) you don't ever need to see it as a foal. Plus the mare won't come in to milk. And she won't mourn it.


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## Doormouse (11 November 2014)

bakewell said:



			If it's under 4 months (which stands a fairly good chance of being the case but vet can confirm) you don't ever need to see it as a foal. Plus the mare won't come in to milk. And she won't mourn it.
		
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I bought her in May and the sellers got her back from loan in April so I think she is probably about 7 months by now maybe even more.


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## Doormouse (11 November 2014)

Orangehorse said:



			This is grim.  But if the foal died at birth it would be the same.  You have to keep the pony in a stable for a few days and a bit short of food and water "cruel to be kind."  After a few days the milk will dry up and the mare will be fine again.  

If you decide that this is the best thing could you get someone else to do the deed, so you don't have to be there?
		
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It is grim, would without doubt be the hardest decision I have ever had to make re horses. I would actually be more worried about the effect it would have on the mare but I guess mares loose foals all the time and they get over it ok so maybe I'm just putting human feelings to her.


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## flaxen (11 November 2014)

Rhodders said:



			wow I couldn't look at a wee foal and have it murdered just because it shouldn't have really been born[/QUOTE
I know of a stud farm that did just that, the mare had been very sick towards the end of her pregnancy and wasn't expected to survive but she did and she was in foal to a top stallion and was carrying a valuable foal, she foaled a perfectly healthy but small filly and the stud called work out and had them both euthanised, they were insured for morality!! 

How far on in foal roughly is your pony? Did the vet give you any idea of size or was she blood tested? While its not pleasant for your pony to abort her foal now it is possible and I've known brood mares abort foals at this stage and even 9-10 mths in foal due to cord strangulation, it will be less stressful now than her foaling a live foal down to then bond with it for it to then be euthanised.
		
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## bakewell (11 November 2014)

Doormouse said:



			I bought her in May and the sellers got her back from loan in April so I think she is probably about 7 months by now maybe even more.
		
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Mhmm that is trickier. Stillbirths they fuss at for a bit and then seem to lose interest. 
You could have it dealt with surgically (££) and obv riskier for the mare.

Realistically, no matter how cute foals are, they often grow into unwanted horses in the current climate. I would definitely consider having someone else deal with delivery etc rather than yourself if you decide to take it to full term. Perhaps get her stabled at the hunt that week if you could.


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## WelshD (11 November 2014)

Its a very long shot but maybe contact the National Foaling Bank (I think thats what its called) for a chat. There wont be any where near as many mares needing foals as there will be orphaned foals needing mares but you do see appeals online from people whose much loved mare has lost a foal and who want to keep that mare happy by taking on a foal so you may be able to rehome the foal at an early age

I am not sure you'd have much luck with the seller as they can simply claim they sold the mare in good faith


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## Doormouse (11 November 2014)

flaxen said:





Rhodders said:



			wow I couldn't look at a wee foal and have it murdered just because it shouldn't have really been born[/QUOTE
I know of a stud farm that did just that, the mare had been very sick towards the end of her pregnancy and wasn't expected to survive but she did and she was in foal to a top stallion and was carrying a valuable foal, she foaled a perfectly healthy but small filly and the stud called work out and had them both euthanised, they were insured for morality!! 

How far on in foal roughly is your pony? Did the vet give you any idea of size or was she blood tested? While its not pleasant for your pony to abort her foal now it is possible and I've known brood mares abort foals at this stage and even 9-10 mths in foal due to cord strangulation, it will be less stressful now than her foaling a live foal down to then bond with it for it to then be euthanised.
		
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She was blood tested as the vet said she was too small to have an internal. I presume a scan would tell us how far along she is? Also if it was aborted now I assume she would have to birth the foal but it would be dead? Sorry to ask stupid questions but I know very little about breeding.
		
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## Palindrome (11 November 2014)

Rehome the mare now or just the foal once he's weaned. If your YO can't set up a small paddock for them you always have the option to move them somewhere else (perhaps a stud?) just before the foal is born.


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## Doormouse (11 November 2014)

bakewell said:



			Mhmm that is trickier. Stillbirths they fuss at for a bit and then seem to lose interest. 
You could have it dealt with surgically (££) and obv riskier for the mare.

Realistically, no matter how cute foals are, they often grow into unwanted horses in the current climate. I would definitely consider having someone else deal with delivery etc rather than yourself if you decide to take it to full term. Perhaps get her stabled at the hunt that week if you could.
		
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Again apologies for stupid questions / musings because breeding is not an area I know anything about but is it easier for the mare to process and understand a foal born dead than one that is born live and then removed? I assume the former but haven't had any experience of mares and foals.


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## Amymay (11 November 2014)

Rhodders said:



			wow I couldn't look at a wee foal and have it murdered just because it shouldn't have really been born
		
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Nor me. 

What a completely hideous suggestion.

Where in the country are you. Is there a H&H member that can help you out here with foaling facilities?


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## Mongoose11 (11 November 2014)

[/QUOTEthey were insured for morality!![/QUOTE]

What an interesting Freudian slip!


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## Doormouse (11 November 2014)

Palindrome said:



			Rehome the mare now or just the foal once he's weaned. If your YO can't set up a small paddock for them you always have the option to move them somewhere else (perhaps a stud?) just before the foal is born.
		
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Easy enough in theory but in practice I very much doubt I would be able to give either of them away at this stage or the foal later on. I certainly would worry about the home they would go to, I wouldn't be able to guarantee that someone wouldn't take the mare and do exactly what I'm considering doing. The foal could end up god knows where. There are already hundreds of unwanted horses and ponies in this country, the rescues are full to bursting, how responsible would it be for me to add another one to the world?


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## bakewell (11 November 2014)

Doormouse said:





flaxen said:



			She was blood tested as the vet said she was too small to have an internal. I presume a scan would tell us how far along she is? Also if it was aborted now I assume she would have to birth the foal but it would be dead? Sorry to ask stupid questions but I know very little about breeding.
		
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The foal won't be capable of surviving outside the womb, pre 300 days is non-viable. It will look recognisable as a tiny foal. Smaller than you'd think as most growth comes at the end. 
The method used to induce would influence the delivery; surgical or shot. You might be a bit late for shots, and they may not be successful.
		
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## _GG_ (11 November 2014)

Doormouse, check your PM's. I can possibly help.


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## Amymay (11 November 2014)

_GG_ said:



			Doormouse, check your PM's. I can possibly help.
		
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Yaaayy!


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## flaxen (11 November 2014)

Mongoose11 said:



			[/QUOTEthey were insured for morality!!
		
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What an interesting Freudian slip![/QUOTE]

That is my stupid phone changing words ive typed to what it thinks ive wanted to type. It should say "mortality"!!


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## Doormouse (11 November 2014)

amymay said:



			Nor me. 

What a completely hideous suggestion.

Doormouse, do you keep your horses at home?
		
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Sadly no. If I did then I wouldn't even consider it, if I had my own land and space, was master of my horses and my turnout etc it would be fine. But, I don't and I'm not. I'm a single mother, I work my backside off to afford my own horse and a pony for my daughter but money is very tight indeed. I couldn't afford to send her to a stud to foal, I would really struggle to find an extra £60 a month basic livery. I could possibly find a field somewhere but unlikely in my area as small grazing fields are like hens teeth, dairy country so the worst type of grass for small ponies.

Believe you me, this is not an option that fills me with anything but horror, I have never faced such an awful dilemma.


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## bakewell (11 November 2014)

If you do feel that running to full term and then having the foal put down is something you might consider, you might find that your local hunt would be helpful. ie if you could send the mare there to foal and dry off, they would be able and appropriate to  provide resolution. (And if you wish to tell your daughter the foal died this may make it easier for her too)
Likewise this very sad situation could have an upshot if the colostrum was stripped and sent to foal bank.

Consider all the negative things that would not immediately be obvious; a horse with behavioural difficulties, inherited conditions, inbreeding. That's the risk when you don't know the sire. And as you recognise; so many unwanted horses already.


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## Amymay (11 November 2014)

Read GG's Pm.


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## flaxen (11 November 2014)

Doormouse said:





flaxen said:



			She was blood tested as the vet said she was too small to have an internal. I presume a scan would tell us how far along she is? Also if it was aborted now I assume she would have to birth the foal but it would be dead? Sorry to ask stupid questions but I know very little about breeding.[/QUOTE

If the vet said she is too small for a rectal then she is too small for a scan as they are done rectally, unless you can find a small female vet with very slim hands and arms and your pony is sedated and given a dose of buscopan which will relax her muscles and prevent her from tensing so will be less likely to tear but not guaranteed.
		
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## Sukistokes2 (11 November 2014)

OMG! I am horrified!!!! Murder a baby, come on WTF, we are meant to be horse lovers on here!!!
Before you ask yes it has happened to me, I did buy a mare, yes she was in foal. Yes she did give birth, was I scared, yes, was I worried, yes! What happened? Well I gained my horse of a lifetime that's what happened!
I am so glad that some sensible voices are now airing there view!!!
What a lovely story to tell a child, your pony gave birth and I killed the baby while you were at school! Some respect she will gain for the sanctity of life....yes melodramatic I know but I am really shocked!


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## charlie76 (11 November 2014)

I have to say, I'm usually a hard person when it comes to making decisions but I really can't get my head round the suggestion of simply putting the foal down !


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## bakewell (11 November 2014)

Doormouse said:



			Again apologies for stupid questions / musings because breeding is not an area I know anything about but is it easier for the mare to process and understand a foal born dead than one that is born live and then removed? I assume the former but haven't had any experience of mares and foals.
		
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Sorry missed this. 
All mares are different. Some first time mothers are utterly astonished, some reject or even kill their foals. Some are fine. That she is a first timer would make it easier to get the foal away etc.
Critical bonding comes with sniffing, licking and nursing. You should remove a foal before any of this occurs. 

A stillborn doesn't display any behaviours, and they don't seem to interest the mare as much... they paw and sniff but it's not as animated (this is just my personal experience). They ignore it after a few hours. They don't seem to mourn it and don't seem to mind when it's removed.

Remember the death of young is perfectly normal, a standard risk of reproduction. In evolutionary terms, she can't afford to sit there moping, she'll go back to the herd. Do be aware she may go into foal heat (this is an estrus shortly after birth), so don't confuse this with emotional foaling responses. 

We've had a lot of conditions with stillbirths on the farm over the years (various virus outbreaks etc, not that we are a disease-tastic place, you just do get used to seeing them more and have grown up on a farm). You will be far more upset than the dam. Her job is to get on with making another one.


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## thatsmygirl (11 November 2014)

Sukistokes2 said:



			OMG! I am horrified!!!! Murder a baby, come on WTF, we are meant to be horse lovers on here!!!
Before you ask yes it has happened to me, I did buy a mare, yes she was in foal. Yes she did give birth, was I scared, yes, was I worried, yes! What happened? Well I gained my horse of a lifetime that's what happened!
I am so glad that some sensible voices are now airing there view!!!
What a lovely story to tell a child, your pony gave birth and I killed the baby while you were at school! Some respect she will gain for the sanctity of life....yes melodramatic I know but I am really shocked!
		
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I am also disgusted. Walking away from this one. Totally disgusted.


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## Doormouse (11 November 2014)

Sukistokes2 said:



			OMG! I am horrified!!!! Murder a baby, come on WTF, we are meant to be horse lovers on here!!!
Before you ask yes it has happened to me, I did buy a mare, yes she was in foal. Yes she did give birth, was I scared, yes, was I worried, yes! What happened? Well I gained my horse of a lifetime that's what happened!
I am so glad that some sensible voices are now airing there view!!!
What a lovely story to tell a child, your pony gave birth and I killed the baby while you were at school! Some respect she will gain for the sanctity of life....yes melodramatic I know but I am really shocked!
		
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It has happened to me before, and yes I kept the foal, the foal is now 3 and just been backed. I had to sell the mare to fund the foal, the mare was my horse of a lifetime but she was a very saleable commodity, she sold well and went to a lovely home. 

I am not unaware of the reality either way and as stated it is not a decision I will take lightly.


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## NinjaPony (11 November 2014)

There is no way I could put a foal down as soon as it was born.... an early abortion is one thing, putting a live foal down is another... Doesn't make your situation any easier but its just something I could never, ever do.


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## _GG_ (11 November 2014)

Deleted as PM received.


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## Goldenstar (11 November 2014)

I am pretty practical about putting horses to sleep , but I could not euthanise a foal just because it was a BOGOF .
I understand the logic but there's no way I could do it .


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## crabbymare (11 November 2014)

First I would have the mare scanned and palpated by a vet with a small hand and arm to find out the size of the foal snd from there its likely due date although from the dates you have given she would have been in foal when she was returned to the owner in April so you are looking at a probable March foal. while you are waiting for a vet say hello to GG (^^ post number 40) and talk VERY nicely to her  the good  thing is that a March foal will mean that your daughter is not likely to be wanting to ride as much because of the weather not normally being so good and then could ride the mare with the foal at foot as she is not going to be doing a huge amount with her at that age. being a pony the foal could be weaned at 4.5 to 5 months (not ideal but possible) and you would then have the pony back for the latter part of the summer so not a huge time to be out of work


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## 3Beasties (11 November 2014)

_GG_ said:



			Doormouse, is your inbox full?

I can hear the turmoil in your posts. I see you are in the West Country, I am in Gloucester. I am not going to get dragged in to taking in every waif and stray just because I can now, but I am already planning on getting a small herd of weanling sec a's and b's next year as I was surrounded by them as a child and I have long wanted to do this, giving them a proper start in life to go on to good homes as I see myself growing old doing this, not for money, as it will cost me more than I ever make, but just because I love them. 

I would happily have your mare until weaning for you to have back and you wouldn't have to pay...I would feel utterly daft charging livery for a section a. I live on site and work from home, I can deal with Laminitics as I am putting track systems in our woods here to make a safe and interesting turnout for laminitis prone ponies. 

I would cover costs and keep the foal if you want and you could visit whenever. 

I won't be at all offended if this isn't something you want to do...I'm just putting it out there as an option if you want it. 

Facebook is flooded with ponies needing loan homes, so you could easily get a stand in pony for your daughter. 

Think it over, there's no time limit with the exception of your mare obviously, so try not to worry, take some time, sleep on it and do what will be best for you and your daughter, nobody else. 

Cheryl xx
		
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Post of the week! What an incredibly generous offer GG.


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## Honey08 (11 November 2014)

I can't imagine even considering killing it.  It sounds like you don't even know what she's in foal to yet, it may be something amazing. If you were nearer me I'd lend you a field.  At least try and find a nice solution!

Edited to add, I bet you'd not do it anyway once there was a real foal in front of you.  You'd have to be made of ice.


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## Doormouse (11 November 2014)

_GG_ said:



			Doormouse, is your inbox full?

I can hear the turmoil in your posts. I see you are in the West Country, I am in Gloucester. I am not going to get dragged in to taking in every waif and stray just because I can now, but I am already planning on getting a small herd of weanling sec a's and b's next year as I was surrounded by them as a child and I have long wanted to do this, giving them a proper start in life to go on to good homes as I see myself growing old doing this, not for money, as it will cost me more than I ever make, but just because I love them. 

I would happily have your mare until weaning for you to have back and you wouldn't have to pay...I would feel utterly daft charging livery for a section a. I live on site and work from home, I can deal with Laminitics as I am putting track systems in our woods here to make a safe and interesting turnout for laminitis prone ponies. 

I would cover costs and keep the foal if you want and you could visit whenever. 

I won't be at all offended if this isn't something you want to do...I'm just putting it out there as an option if you want it. 

Facebook is flooded with ponies needing loan homes, so you could easily get a stand in pony for your daughter. 

Think it over, there's no time limit with the exception of your mare obviously, so try not to worry, take some time, sleep on it and do what will be best for you and your daughter, nobody else. 

Cheryl xx
		
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I have just replied via pm, very long and emotional I'm afraid.

Thank you, thank you, thank you so very much, I am gobsmacked by your amazing generosity and so grateful. If you are honestly really sure then yes please x100, I can't think of anyone I would rather she went to.

I hope you got my pm, lots more detail and I'm afraid emotion there.

I am honestly crying with relief and amazement that someone would be so generous and kind to a complete stranger. Thank you.


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## thatsmygirl (11 November 2014)

_GG_ said:



			Doormouse, is your inbox full?

I can hear the turmoil in your posts. I see you are in the West Country, I am in Gloucester. I am not going to get dragged in to taking in every waif and stray just because I can now, but I am already planning on getting a small herd of weanling sec a's and b's next year as I was surrounded by them as a child and I have long wanted to do this, giving them a proper start in life to go on to good homes as I see myself growing old doing this, not for money, as it will cost me more than I ever make, but just because I love them. 

I would happily have your mare until weaning for you to have back and you wouldn't have to pay...I would feel utterly daft charging livery for a section a. I live on site and work from home, I can deal with Laminitics as I am putting track systems in our woods here to make a safe and interesting turnout for laminitis prone ponies. 

I would cover costs and keep the foal if you want and you could visit whenever. 

I won't be at all offended if this isn't something you want to do...I'm just putting it out there as an option if you want it. 

Facebook is flooded with ponies needing loan homes, so you could easily get a stand in pony for your daughter. 

Think it over, there's no time limit with the exception of your mare obviously, so try not to worry, take some time, sleep on it and do what will be best for you and your daughter, nobody else. 

Cheryl xx
		
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What a lovely offer  no yard iv ever been on charges for a foal until its weaned and I'm in the West Country so could try changing yards.


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## Doormouse (11 November 2014)

Honey08 said:



			I can't imagine even considering killing it.  It sounds like you don't even know what she's in foal to yet, it may be something amazing. If you were nearer me I'd lend you a field.  At least try and find a nice solution!

Edited to add, I bet you'd not do it anyway once there was a real foal in front of you.  You'd have to be made of ice.
		
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Read my earlier posts, I very much doubt I would too


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## thatsmygirl (11 November 2014)

Doormouse said:



			I have just replied via pm, very long and emotional I'm afraid.

Thank you, thank you, thank you so very much, I am gobsmacked by your amazing generosity and so grateful. If you are honestly really sure then yes please x100, I can't think of anyone I would rather she went to.

I hope you got my pm, lots more detail and I'm afraid emotion there.

I am honestly crying with relief and amazement that someone would be so generous and kind to a complete stranger. Thank you.
		
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   oh I so hope this works out for you both I really do


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## Honey08 (11 November 2014)

Good.  I really hope that your solution from GG comes off.  It's lovely to read the relief and happiness in your later post.  Good luck.


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## Peregrine Falcon (11 November 2014)

Having lost a foal last year I can't say how devasting it was.  My hat off to GG, fabulous and generous offer.  I hope everything all works out for everyone.


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## _GG_ (11 November 2014)

Doormouse said:



			I have just replied via pm, very long and emotional I'm afraid.

Thank you, thank you, thank you so very much, I am gobsmacked by your amazing generosity and so grateful. If you are honestly really sure then yes please x100, I can't think of anyone I would rather she went to.

I hope you got my pm, lots more detail and I'm afraid emotion there.

I am honestly crying with relief and amazement that someone would be so generous and kind to a complete stranger. Thank you.
		
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Serious, yes. I replied to your PM so call me tomorrow and we can work it all out. 

Breathe, stop crying, make a strong drink....or if you're like me, a cup of tea, my current is peppermint with honey and let your tummy and heart calm down. I totally understand the posts about destroying the foal. It's not something I could ever do and I hate the idea of it, but anyone who reads the link in my sig will know that being responsible for the big problem means making tough decisions in individual cases, so to those condemning the people that have made those suggestions, please try not to be hard on them for it.


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## Redders (11 November 2014)

Oh my word! This has turned into one of the most heartwarming posts I have read!! The generosity from GG is astounding and enough to restore faith in us humans, and the desperation of the OP to try to do the right thing is clear. I am so glad that she posted on here, and hope the solution works out, as I'm sure it will. Good luck guys!


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## OldNag (11 November 2014)

redders said:



			Oh my word! This has turned into one of the most heartwarming posts I have read!! The generosity from GG is astounding and enough to restore faith in us humans, and the desperation of the OP to try to do the right thing is clear. I am so glad that she posted on here, and hope the solution works out, as I'm sure it will. Good luck guys!
		
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^^ This.  Just this.


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## Landcruiser (11 November 2014)

Faith in humanity restored......


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## SunSeeker (12 November 2014)

Nice one GG !
Best of luck to you both. 
This will definitely be one to watch x


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## Doormouse (12 November 2014)

Thank you to everyone who has replied to this post. As you will now be aware the amazing GG has rescued us and we will keep you all up to date with the progress. She has most certainly restored my faith in humanity and her generosity is humbling.

To all those who were horrified, please don't think that I was anything other than horrified myself at the options. I can't think of anything crueller to a mare than aborting a foal deliberately especially at such an advanced stage or taking the foal away at birth.

However, I also believe that it is incredibly cruel to allow an animal to live that you know has an uncertain future, a future that you as an owner can guarantee even if it means making a terrible decision. Please try and imagine if someone came on here in 5 or 6 years time taking about a small pony they had rescued that had been beaten and starved and had dreadful behavioural problems, what would you say about the breeder / owner? Likely response would be that they were irresponsible. Suppose that was my foal, I would never forgive myself.

There are no rights or wrongs really but I was desperately trying to find the best and kindest solution for the long term.

We will keep you posted.


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## Bigbenji (12 November 2014)

I think I want to find GG and take her out for a drink or ten! 

What a lovely offer and poor dormouse I bet you can actually breath now. 

Honestly brought a tear to my eye.


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## Kallibear (12 November 2014)

Sukistokes2 said:



			OMG! I am horrified!!!! Murder a baby, come on WTF, we are meant to be horse lovers on here!!!
Before you ask yes it has happened to me, I did buy a mare, yes she was in foal. Yes she did give birth, was I scared, yes, was I worried, yes! What happened? Well I gained my horse of a lifetime that's what happened!
I am so glad that some sensible voices are now airing there view!!!
What a lovely story to tell a child, your pony gave birth and I killed the baby while you were at school! Some respect she will gain for the sanctity of life....yes melodramatic I know but I am really shocked!
		
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Do you drink milk? Because that's exactly what happens to calves everyday all over the country.  It's not worth raising a jersey bull calf etc. 


I'm so pleased you've come to a happy conclusion however.


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## luckyoldme (12 November 2014)

Kallibear said:



			Do you drink milk? Because that's exactly what happens to calves everyday all over the country.  It's not worth raising a jersey bull calf etc. 


I'm so pleased you've come to a happy conclusion however.
		
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I was thinking the same thing...
I really hope gg s kind offer works out.
In all honesty i know long term i personally couldn t live with pts a new born foal. There again there are people who could live with that..and who am i to judge? I drink milk and im well aware of the fact that many of the calves are disposed of soon after birth.


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## Stormynight (12 November 2014)

Doormouse said:



			In principle I couldn't agree more and also very cruel to the mare but the harsh reality is what life will that foal have? It will be unregistered, parentage on one side unknown, who would want it?.
		
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Funnily enough my boy is unregistered, parentage unknown on both sides. I wanted him!

So glad there's a happy ending for this thread


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## Spilletta (12 November 2014)

Doormouse said:



			Thank you to everyone who has replied to this post. As you will now be aware the amazing GG has rescued us and we will keep you all up to date with the progress. She has most certainly restored my faith in humanity and her generosity is humbling.

To all those who were horrified, please don't think that I was anything other than horrified myself at the options. I can't think of anything crueller to a mare than aborting a foal deliberately especially at such an advanced stage or taking the foal away at birth.

However, I also believe that it is incredibly cruel to allow an animal to live that you know has an uncertain future, a future that you as an owner can guarantee even if it means making a terrible decision. Please try and imagine if someone came on here in 5 or 6 years time taking about a small pony they had rescued that had been beaten and starved and had dreadful behavioural problems, what would you say about the breeder / owner? Likely response would be that they were irresponsible. Suppose that was my foal, I would never forgive myself.

There are no rights or wrongs really but I was desperately trying to find the best and kindest solution for the long term.

We will keep you posted.
		
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Good luck Doormouse, and well done for being strong enough to raise the question on the forum. You were in a lose/lose situation whichever way you went. Horrible to think of the abort/foal pts option, or horrible to think what could happen to a pony with an uncertain future. Sadly, it's the irresponsible people who allow this type of thing to happen in the first place that don't seem to suffer any horror at what misery they can cause. So glad that GG has been able to stop the misery in this case.


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## sarahann1 (12 November 2014)

I appear to have watery eyes this morning...

Sorry you've ended up in such a difficult situation OP, good on you for your reasoned replies to all the questions and judgements. You sound like a fabulous owner/mum.

GG what a lovely thing to do, I hope it all works out for you both and hope we get some pictures all being well


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## *hic* (12 November 2014)

Presumably plenty of you have been assuming that pts the foal is what I'd do myself. It isn't. As some noticed it was a response to the purely practical issues raised, one of which was that the OP's daughter hadn't anything to ride.

I have at mine a perfect child's pony, she's kicking her heels doing nothing, she's an older lady and won't be wanting to jump although she has taught plenty of tiny children to ride. If there is some way of getting her down to the OP then OP and her daughter are very welcome to borrow her whilst OP's own pony is out of action. Perhaps she could be got to _GG_'s for a straight swap. Is there anyone available to help with any stages of travelling from Peterborough to the West Country? Anyone going in that direction in the near future? She's a Section A and adores travelling.


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## Amymay (12 November 2014)

Good luck Doormouse.

GG &#9829;&#9829;&#9829;&#9829;&#9829;


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## Montyforever (12 November 2014)

This thread has made my day! 
Faith in humanity definitely restored, please keep us up to date!


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## Jericho (12 November 2014)

_GG_ said:



			Serious, yes. I replied to your PM so call me tomorrow and we can work it all out. 

Breathe, stop crying, make a strong drink....or if you're like me, a cup of tea, my current is peppermint with honey and let your tummy and heart calm down. I totally understand the posts about destroying the foal. It's not something I could ever do and I hate the idea of it, but anyone who reads the link in my sig will know that being responsible for the big problem means making tough decisions in individual cases, so to those condemning the people that have made those suggestions, please try not to be hard on them for it.
		
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GG - you are an amazingly wonderful generous person. Hope this all works out for everyone involved


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## Jericho (12 November 2014)

jemima*askin said:



			Presumably plenty of you have been assuming that pts the foal is what I'd do myself. It isn't. As some noticed it was a response to the purely practical issues raised, one of which was that the OP's daughter hadn't anything to ride.

I have at mine a perfect child's pony, she's kicking her heels doing nothing, she's an older lady and won't be wanting to jump although she has taught plenty of tiny children to ride. If there is some way of getting her down to the OP then OP and her daughter are very welcome to borrow her whilst OP's own pony is out of action. Perhaps she could be got to _GG_'s for a straight swap. Is there anyone available to help with any stages of travelling from Peterborough to the West Country? Anyone going in that direction in the near future? She's a Section A and adores travelling.
		
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Another lovely lovely person. Well done!


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## sula (12 November 2014)

Oh wow, this is so heartwarming and so restorative to faith in the human condition.  It`s been a hard theme to follow and I`m sure few of us really know what we would do in the same situation.  We can think we do but really?  

Doormouse, utter respect to you for raising such a reasoned, heartwrenching subject which must have exacted a terrible emotional cost to you.  And GG and jemima* askin, just WOW.  When I meet with the witch this afternoon I will recall this kindness and it will restore my belief in human kindness and help me through.

A multitude of blessings to each of you - can`t wait to read the updates!


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## NellRosk (12 November 2014)

I've just read all of this thread and whilst I completely agree with what posters were saying I was saddened with the whole gist of it. And then GG came along! This forum is a better place for having you here, thank you xx


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## Caramac71 (12 November 2014)

Doormouse, I am so sorry for your predicament, but ... WOW! what an amazing outcome to this thread!  The compassion and generosity on this forum is incredible at times.  What lovely people you are


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## Doormouse (12 November 2014)

jemima*askin said:



			Presumably plenty of you have been assuming that pts the foal is what I'd do myself. It isn't. As some noticed it was a response to the purely practical issues raised, one of which was that the OP's daughter hadn't anything to ride.

I have at mine a perfect child's pony, she's kicking her heels doing nothing, she's an older lady and won't be wanting to jump although she has taught plenty of tiny children to ride. If there is some way of getting her down to the OP then OP and her daughter are very welcome to borrow her whilst OP's own pony is out of action. Perhaps she could be got to _GG_'s for a straight swap. Is there anyone available to help with any stages of travelling from Peterborough to the West Country? Anyone going in that direction in the near future? She's a Section A and adores travelling.
		
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That is the most incredibly kind and generous offer and I would be beyond grateful if you really would be happy to let us have your pony as a stand in. I am quite overcome by the generosity of first GG and now yourself, thank you so very much.

I will pm you if that is ok?


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## Jenna1406 (12 November 2014)

WOW! What an offer _GG_! I take my hat off to you, not many decent people like yourself about now adays


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## Doormouse (12 November 2014)

Jemima*askin I've tried to pm you but your inbox is full.


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## *hic* (12 November 2014)

Doormouse said:



			That is the most incredibly kind and generous offer and I would be beyond grateful if you really would be happy to let us have your pony as a stand in. I am quite overcome by the generosity of first GG and now yourself, thank you so very much.

I will pm you if that is ok?
		
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That's fine. She's a good girl.


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## _GG_ (12 November 2014)

jemima*askin said:



			That's fine. She's a good girl.
		
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Ah, what a lovely thing to do and taking away all the stress of Doormouse having to look for one 

Well, I can set up a stable here for whenever, so hopefully some transport can be arranged and Doormouse will only have one trip to make. Despite having to make up a bed on the sofa at 2am after my little Stig was sick literally over 50% of our bed, it is very very lovely to wake up to a problem hopefully solved for Doormouse 

By the way, I saw pictures last night and what an amazing pair the pony and daughter make...I almost spontaneously combusted from cuteness overload. I haven't been that affected by pony pictures since the Christmas pictures of Gizmo were posted


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## sula (12 November 2014)

As ever, I wish we had a `like` option on here!


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## misskk88 (12 November 2014)

My faith in people has been swiftly and utterly restored. What kind people GG and Jemima*Askin are.

ETA- So glad to read a potentially very happy outcome for all!


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## fatpiggy (12 November 2014)

amymay said:



			Nor me. 

What a completely hideous suggestion.

Where in the country are you. Is there a H&H member that can help you out here with foaling facilities?
		
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It happens with other species every day of the year and no-one bats an eyelid because it doesn't cross their mind. Thousands of bull calves born to dairy cows are shot at birth because they are of no financial use. A friend of mine bred goats ( a rare breed) for showing and milk production.  Unfortunately as with many animals, more male babies are born than females and her neighbouring fellow goat-keeper would take the billy kids within 24 hours and dispose of them for her.

The poor OP is between a rock and a hard place.  She needs practical suggestions, not sentimental ones.


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## Palindrome (12 November 2014)

Glad to hear everything is sorted 

Someone had a BOGOF from a pony at the previous yard I was at and I was the 1st one at the yard the morning the filly was born. I will always remember that day as one of the best of my life as I helped the filly warm up and nurse. It was the mare's first foal and she didn't know what to do. I was myself over 6 month pregnant so probably even more emotional.

A foal is something to be treasured, no matter his commercial value or breeding papers. A wee section A cross is not worth much money but will probably be as cheap as chips to keep. Good luck to everyone, sounds like a great story in the making.


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## Orangehorse (12 November 2014)

That is a very, very kind offer.  The perfect solution.


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## DJ (12 November 2014)

How wonderful to see HH members to the rescue once again, I do love how amazing this forum can be. Well done GG, you are an angel x


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## _GG_ (12 November 2014)

Palindrome said:



			Glad to hear everything is sorted 

Someone had a BOGOF from a pony at the previous yard I was at and I was the 1st one at the yard the morning the filly was born. I will always remember that day as one of the best of my life as I helped the filly warm up and nurse. It was the mare's first foal and she didn't know what to do. I was myself over 6 month pregnant so probably even more emotional.

A foal is something to be treasured, no matter his commercial value or breeding papers. A wee section A cross is not worth much money but will probably be as cheap as chips to keep. Good luck to everyone, sounds like a great story in the making.
		
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Well, filly or colt, it will have a life with me forever. I have never actually sold a horse. Molly was gifted to the eventers that have her now, but I will take her back if ever needs be. The weanlings I get next year and this little BOGOF will just have a happy upbringing and then be started by a very good (and small) friend of mine and have lives of being loaned to loving homes. We did it with Mischief when we outgrew him and he had a great life, helping lots of little ones to learn how to ride and then came back to retire. 

So...in about 5 years time when they have all had enough exposure and are safe little mounts, I'll be on here letting you all know


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## Palindrome (12 November 2014)

fatpiggy said:



			It happens with other species every day of the year and no-one bats an eyelid because it doesn't cross their mind. Thousands of bull calves born to dairy cows are shot at birth because they are of no financial use. A friend of mine bred goats ( a rare breed) for showing and milk production.  Unfortunately as with many animals, more male babies are born than females and her neighbouring fellow goat-keeper would take the billy kids within 24 hours and dispose of them for her.

The poor OP is between a rock and a hard place.  She needs practical suggestions, not sentimental ones.
		
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Are you sure about the calves? I have read that they are now sold for meat when old enough.
Personally it does cross my mind and I would find it very disturbing but that would be commercial pressure, common sense would dictate to use the animals for meat. I am sure the goats or cows can give enough milk for the kids/calves and for people's use, although of course the productivity is lessened.
It is something I have thought about and I think we need a bit more clarity about what is going on. I'd happily pay more for milk that I know has been produced with the welfare of calves in mind.


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## Doormouse (12 November 2014)




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## _GG_ (12 November 2014)

YAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Wagtail (12 November 2014)

jemima*askin said:



			Well if you want a purely practical solution to the problem your daughter is tiny, she's going to be walking and trotting only and weighs nothing so she could keep riding right up until just before delivery - you're hardly going to have a tot out for hours at a time. Then as the foal turns up have it pts and dry the mare off. It's not the most pleasant solution but it's probably the cheapest, assuming nothing goes wrong with the foaling and keeps your daughter riding.
		
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OMG! What a horrible thing to do. It has really upset me even thinking about it, not least for what it would do to the poor pony that has tried her heart out for the OP and her young daughter.


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## fatpiggy (12 November 2014)

Palindrome said:



			Are you sure about the calves? I have read that they are now sold for meat when old enough.
Personally it does cross my mind and I would find it very disturbing but that would be commercial pressure, common sense would dictate to use the animals for meat. I am sure the goats or cows can give enough milk for the kids/calves and for people's use, although of course the productivity is lessened.
It is something I have thought about and I think we need a bit more clarity about what is going on. I'd happily pay more for milk that I know has been produced with the welfare of calves in mind.
		
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This is why the the powers that be are trying to restart veal production.  Personally I won't eat veal on principal because of the traditional management of veal calves.  A bull calf born to dairy parents is never going to make the bulk/weight that a specialist beef species bull calf will so the farmer is feeding it at considerable expense in time and money for not much of a final price at market.   A bullet costs less, sadly.  I'm sure many smaller-scale farmers do let the calf live and get what they can for it, but the big boys with super-herds and over-zealous accountants sure as heck won't.


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## Wagtail (12 November 2014)

Doormouse said:



			I have just replied via pm, very long and emotional I'm afraid.

Thank you, thank you, thank you so very much, I am gobsmacked by your amazing generosity and so grateful. If you are honestly really sure then yes please x100, I can't think of anyone I would rather she went to.

I hope you got my pm, lots more detail and I'm afraid emotion there.

I am honestly crying with relief and amazement that someone would be so generous and kind to a complete stranger. Thank you.
		
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Fabulous! What a lovely thing for _GG_ to do xx


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## fatpiggy (12 November 2014)

OP. If it helps, I've known some cracking foals come out of bog-offs so don't be certain that yours will come out looking like Frankenstein!  As to size, well I know a section A that was caught by a registered Welsh D and the foal ended up about 13hh. The naughty boy also caught a 14.2hh showjumping pony and that foal ended up at just around 15hh. Both were maiden mares.   A vet told me that the mother regulates the foal size and unless there is a huge disparity between the size of the parents, things are generally just fine, if not nature steps in and causes a miscarriage.


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## exmoorponyprincess1 (12 November 2014)

What a wonderful thread - beautiful pony (and I'm not usually a fan of little welshies!!) and such generous offers from HHOers to make a very stressful situation for OP pretty much disappear!  Looking forward to progress updates!


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## Mudfukkle (12 November 2014)

sula said:



			As ever, I wish we had a `like` option on here!
		
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Me too, how do we get Admin to add one to the posts? It really frustrates me not having one 

Well done GG for your very generous offer  I can't wait for the updates, let's hope the foal is born healthy so we can all follow it's progress. All the best Doormouse xx


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## Nettle123 (12 November 2014)

Well done GG. The mare is lovely. We took on an infoal mare four years ago as the new owners were not in a position to keep their bogoff. She foaled no problem and the cob cross foal is a lovely useful type now.

Pts a newborn doesn't sit well with me either


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## Palindrome (12 November 2014)

fatpiggy said:



			This is why the the powers that be are trying to restart veal production.  Personally I won't eat veal on principal because of the traditional management of veal calves.  A bull calf born to dairy parents is never going to make the bulk/weight that a specialist beef species bull calf will so the farmer is feeding it at considerable expense in time and money for not much of a final price at market.   A bullet costs less, sadly.  I'm sure many smaller-scale farmers do let the calf live and get what they can for it, but the big boys with super-herds and over-zealous accountants sure as heck won't.
		
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Thank you fatpiggy, I have read a little more about it and have decided to switch to soy milk as I don't see a short term easy solution and am the only cow milk drinker at home. Can't give up cheese though, will have to find a way around.


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## bakewell (12 November 2014)

Palindrome said:



			Thank you fatpiggy, I have read a little more about it and have decided to switch to soy milk as I don't see a short term easy solution and am the only cow milk drinker at home. Can't give up cheese though, will have to find a way around.
		
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Actually if you are trying to produce a herd replacement (heifer) as the vast majority of dairy herds are closed (no other cattle allowed on, much lower risk of disease) you would generally use sex selected semen (almost always AI for dairy, the bulls are horrors, sex selection very effective in cows).
Friesians (black and white cows for simplicity, majority of cows in uk) already have a big frame so they have some meat value. If a herd replacement is not wanted a terminal sire (one where the offspring goes for meat) will be used. Hence sometimes you see beef bulls in the fields now; gender of offspring irrelevant, beef bulls relatively easy to handle.

So perhaps the problem is not as severe or dramatic as envisaged? 

I'd also like to extend my best wishes to GG, jemima*askin and doormouse. I think this is a fantastic solution. However it is also exceptional and we should not think that this set-up is available to all who find themselves in difficult situations or for all unwanted horses. The Uk still has a huge excess of horses and intelligent debate on options is needed.


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## Cgd (12 November 2014)

what a lovely story - can wait to hear the how it all goes x


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## Old Bat (12 November 2014)

Oooh that's made my day! Great outcome all! x


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## wills_91 (12 November 2014)

Lovely outcome. Hope it all works out for everyone.


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## Honey08 (12 November 2014)

It is a great outcome.  

If you think the mare is lovely, there is a good chance that a foal from her may well turn into a nice child's pony too.


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## lelly (12 November 2014)

I'm sat with tears in my eyes after reading all these posts. Then came the photos and more tears. I'm so pleased this story seems to have a happy ending. Well done to all involved. The little mare is gorgeous and her little jockey too. I could never have a foal pts myself I wouldn't even consider it. I hope all goes well for all involved.


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## FrostyFeet (12 November 2014)

What a lovely thread to read,it really does restore my faith in humanity. Well done GG and hope you can stop worrying now Doormouse. It brought back memories for me as the pony I was so lucky to be given for my twelfth birthday was,unknown to us,in foal and gave birth to a gorgeous little black colt foal three months later. My parents didn't have lots of money,but we were lucky to find a field and shelter very close to home and I was allowed to keep the foal for a year,at which point I had to decide which one to keep. I knew that I didn't have the knowledge to handle a youngster (parents completely non-horsey so was an incredibly tough year for a 12 year old!) so let him go,my riding instructor found a good home for him. Even now though,over thirty years later,I still wonder what happened to him and vowed I would never have another animal where I couldn't secure it's future. 
I cried buckets at the start of the thread and was trying to think of a way to help,now snuffling at such a happy outcome. Lovely,happy news and the internet at it's very best xx


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## FrostyFeet (12 November 2014)

Ps Jemima Askin you're lovely too-missed your offer whilst typing. You and GG deserve something very special from Santa this year &#128515;


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## Palindrome (12 November 2014)

bakewell said:



			Actually if you are trying to produce a herd replacement (heifer) as the vast majority of dairy herds are closed (no other cattle allowed on, much lower risk of disease) you would generally use sex selected semen (almost always AI for dairy, the bulls are horrors, sex selection very effective in cows).
Friesians (black and white cows for simplicity, majority of cows in uk) already have a big frame so they have some meat value. If a herd replacement is not wanted a terminal sire (one where the offspring goes for meat) will be used. Hence sometimes you see beef bulls in the fields now; gender of offspring irrelevant, beef bulls relatively easy to handle.

So perhaps the problem is not as severe or dramatic as envisaged?
		
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That's very interesting and reassuring. There is a farm on the same estate than my yard and I remember wondering why the youngsters were a mix of very different types and colors, a strange herd to look at (some even look like rarish breed crosses). I think the farmer buys them at the market, let them grow up with good grass/haylage and they are then sold for meat. Is there a good website that would tell me more about current farming practices in the UK? Still going to give the soy milk a go (am told Alpro's is very good) but will feel better about my cheese platter!


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## bakewell (12 November 2014)

Palindrome said:



			That's very interesting and reassuring. There is a farm on the same estate than my yard and I remember wondering why the youngsters were a mix of very different types and colors, a strange herd to look at (some even look like rarish breed crosses). I think the farmer buys them at the market, let them grow up with good grass/haylage and they are then sold for meat. Is there a good website that would tell me more about current farming practices in the UK? Still going to give the soy milk a go (am told Alpro's is very good) but will feel better about my cheese platter!
		
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That's likely to be using the defra tb testing system. Basically a beef producer (makes calves) and a beef finisher (last stage before slaughter) have different movement restrictions/ pre movement test restrictions.
ie it's easier for the finisher as his cattle will never meet any other cows to pass on their nasties. Bearing in mind that a bad test could really mess up a large farming enterprise and they cost money/ profit. Hence the "all in" "all out" is the best way of controlling disease in this context.

Hope that makes sense! 

I'll see if I can find a decent resource for explaining current farming practices. I think generally farmers have had a pretty bad rap in the last decade though so less bothered about trying to educate (foot and mouth footage was pretty bad for example). And there's no money in farming, it's a grind. (Luckily we have other income sources but I wonder how long we're going to hang onto farming in the uk because it's always been in the family :/)


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## minesadouble (12 November 2014)

Bakewell is correct. There are plenty bull calves out of Friesans/Holsteins by a beef bulls going through through the marts, they make OK money too, we have had a couple to put on cows that have lost their calves. It is not true to say that bull calvs from milk cows are shot at birth per se.


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## bakewell (12 November 2014)

minesadouble said:



			Bakewell is correct. There are plenty bull calves out of Friesans/Holsteins by a beef bulls going through through the marts, they make OK money too, we have had a couple to put on cows that have lost their calves. It is not true to say that bull calvs from milk cows are shot at birth per se.
		
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Incidentally all the "aberdeen angus" beef you see for a premium.... it's all calves off a dairy cow, labelling means it must merely have an aberdeen angus sire.


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## tinycharlie (12 November 2014)

I too could not abort the foal or destroy at birth just because it's a bogof. I was horrified at the first suggestion of it and I would find another solution no matter what.  
Well done GG your kind offer made me cry  can't wait to see the foal when he/she arrives


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## *hic* (12 November 2014)

Oooops, Doormouse and _GG_ - I have now cleared my PMs.


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## Leaf (12 November 2014)

fatpiggy said:



			This is why the the powers that be are trying to restart veal production.  Personally I won't eat veal on principal because of the traditional management of veal calves.  A bull calf born to dairy parents is never going to make the bulk/weight that a specialist beef species bull calf will so the farmer is feeding it at considerable expense in time and money for not much of a final price at market.   A bullet costs less, sadly.  I'm sure many smaller-scale farmers do let the calf live and get what they can for it, but the big boys with super-herds and over-zealous accountants sure as heck won't.
		
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I raise rose veal, buy jerseys bulls from a big dairy, crates were abolished in the 90s. Our calves are 8-12mth when they are sent off, months older than commercially raised lamb & pork do you eat that? If you want some facts about rose veal farming then feel free to ask.


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## lelly (12 November 2014)

This thread is going a little off course I think.


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## bakewell (12 November 2014)

lelly said:



			This thread is going a little off course I think.
		
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The thread is complete? A solution was found. Unfortunately this board can't be organised like reddit/ subreddits (which would be genuinely great as much discussion has worth but is under slightly off-topic headers)


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## _GG_ (12 November 2014)

jemima*askin said:



			Oooops, Doormouse and _GG_ - I have now cleared my PMs.
		
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Will resend now


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## catwithclaws (12 November 2014)

Hope GG and Jemima are both signed up for SS this year - whoever gets them needs to get something extra special


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## Ladyinred (12 November 2014)

_GG_ yet again you have made me cry. This is getting to be a habit. You are a lovely lovely person and Doormouse is so lucky.


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## southerncomfort (12 November 2014)

GG - you are a lovely, lovely kind hearted lady.  That is all.  

x


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## ozpoz (12 November 2014)

GG, you are a darling. x


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## ozpoz (12 November 2014)

Oh, just saw your post.So are you, Jemimaaskin.  : )


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## blitznbobs (12 November 2014)

All those people who prefer animals to people should read this thread... Yes there are bad people in the world but the kindness of strangers never ceases to amaze me... And restores my deeply held belief that most people are good...


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## Leaf (12 November 2014)

blitznbobs said:



			All those people who prefer animals to people should read this thread... Yes there are bad people in the world but the kindness of strangers never ceases to amaze me... And restores my deeply held belief that most people are good...
		
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Like


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## splashgirl45 (12 November 2014)

just read this whole post  and am so pleased that GG  has come up with such a fab solution ,  and jemimaaskin has also been very generous.  what lovely people we have on this forum.....at least dormouse can now relax a bit..well done all!!!!!!!


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## WelshD (12 November 2014)

jemima*askin said:



			Presumably plenty of you have been assuming that pts the foal is what I'd do myself. It isn't. As some noticed it was a response to the purely practical issues raised, one of which was that the OP's daughter hadn't anything to ride.

I have at mine a perfect child's pony, she's kicking her heels doing nothing, she's an older lady and won't be wanting to jump although she has taught plenty of tiny children to ride. If there is some way of getting her down to the OP then OP and her daughter are very welcome to borrow her whilst OP's own pony is out of action. Perhaps she could be got to _GG_'s for a straight swap. Is there anyone available to help with any stages of travelling from Peterborough to the West Country? Anyone going in that direction in the near future? She's a Section A and adores travelling.
		
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I'm about to pick up my first horsebox, it will be a month or so before its ready to travel ponies but I would be willing to help at that point if needed and being in the midlands may be able to help with getting the OP's pony to GG too if timings work out right


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## EventingMum (12 November 2014)

For all the failings it may have this forum has some amazing members - well done ladies!!


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## Tnavas (12 November 2014)

GG you are awesome


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## stormclouds (12 November 2014)

This is one of the most wonderful threads, GG and jemima*askin you are both incredible people! Doormouse, so glad you've found a solution to a horrible, upsetting situation. The kindheartedness of people on this forum never ceases to amaze me


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## julie111 (12 November 2014)

What started off as an upseting thread has ended in the best possible way   some truly lovely people on here! Please keep us updated and photos are a must


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## Ibblebibble (12 November 2014)

heroines of the week = GG and jemima askin   so glad you have a solution for your problem Doormouse.x


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## stencilface (12 November 2014)

julie111 said:



			What started off as an upseting thread has ended in the best possible way   some truly lovely people on here! Please keep us updated and photos are a must 

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This.

This post must win the prize for the best turnaround ever!

Fwiw the dairy I get my milk from raises their boy calves for meat, they are open about it on their website


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## Crumpet (12 November 2014)

Oh the feels! Better than the John Lewis advert, well done ladies!


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## Cinnamontoast (12 November 2014)

Ha, and lots better than the Sainsbury one!

_GG_ and jemimaasking, you two are flaming amazing! <3


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## Amirah (13 November 2014)

Just can't believe such kindness and generosity shown towards a total stranger, wow. Gg and jemima, you are the most wonderful people and have turned a tale of woe into something so heartwarming that I need to go find a hanky &#9786;

Doormouse, your pony and daughter are both incredibly cute!


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## JJS (13 November 2014)

WelshD said:



			I'm about to pick up my first horsebox, it will be a month or so before its ready to travel ponies but I would be willing to help at that point if needed and being in the midlands may be able to help with getting the OP's pony to GG too if timings work out right
		
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Another incredibly kind offer. I must admit that reading the beginning of this threat actually made me feel a little sick, but the incredible generosity of GG and Jemima warms my heart. 

To all involved with caring for him as he grows, I hope that this little pony turns out to be as phenomenal and irreplaceable as my own unregistered Welshie. At 20, he astonishes me every day, and growing up my little sister couldn't have had a better teacher. 3 years down the line, he still teaches her something new every time she rides, keeps her safe and is the best friend she's ever had. I treasure him above everything else and he'll stay here with me until his last day. Remember, not all little Welshies with uncertain breeding end up being worthless; some are worth their weight in gold, and spend every day of their lives being cherished, as mine has. We can't guarantee the future of any horse, but sometimes we just have to give them a chance. I'm delighted to see that this baby has one now.


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## digitalangel (13 November 2014)

i have a horsebox and no life ! its a 7.5 ton so maybe overkill for welshies but im happy to go peterborough->west country-> gloucester -> home for the price of fuel ( im in north bucks )


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## Doormouse (13 November 2014)

digitalangel said:



			i have a horsebox and no life ! its a 7.5 ton so maybe overkill for welshies but im happy to go peterborough->west country-> gloucester -> home for the price of fuel ( im in north bucks )
		
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That is a really kind offer, thank you. I will pm you.


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## splashgirl45 (14 November 2014)

yet another kind offer.  is there no end to the lovely   hho ers?   dormouse you must be so relieved..


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## _GG_ (14 November 2014)

splashgirl45 said:



			yet another kind offer.  is there no end to the lovely   hho ers?   dormouse you must be so relieved..
		
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She's probably tired, a "short" phone call this morning turned into almost 2 hours on the phone and I would guesstimate that only about 5 minutes of that was talking about this situation, lol. 

So many people from this forum have been so very kind to me as well...it's a lovely place to be


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## Dave's Mam (15 November 2014)

You are all fab.  That is all.


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## Wagtail (15 November 2014)

Wow! Just wow!


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## meesha (15 November 2014)

Fantastic,  GG how amazingly generous x


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## Highlands (15 November 2014)

Lovely offer, what a nice post. Thanks all those special people made my day!


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## Ceriann (15 November 2014)

Just read all the posts - really does restore your faith in people.  Some amazing acts of kindness by some very lovely people.


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## mulledwhine (15 November 2014)

jemima*askin said:



			Well if you want a purely practical solution to the problem your daughter is tiny, she's going to be walking and trotting only and weighs nothing so she could keep riding right up until just before delivery - you're hardly going to have a tot out for hours at a time. Then as the foal turns up have it pts and dry the mare off. It's not the most pleasant solution but it's probably the cheapest, assuming nothing goes wrong with the foaling and keeps your daughter riding.
		
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3Beasties said:



			Post of the week! What an incredibly generous offer GG.
		
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GG as always a good old bean 

Ps I liked a post by mistake, I don't think the baby should be PtS, and if I was nearer I would also offer help of space for mare and foal.

Good luck


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## On the Hoof (15 November 2014)

Wow only just read all this...you lot are amazing!!!  Goes off to get something out my eye....


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## Feival (15 November 2014)

Get on with the situation you are in, it happens far more often than you think. You have a few months to get something sorted, start looking for somewhere to turn mare and foal away once born until weaning. Not simple but not un manageable either. My bogof is now 2.5yo and well.


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## marmalade76 (16 November 2014)

charlie76 said:



			I have to say, I'm usually a hard person when it comes to making decisions but I really can't get my head round the suggestion of simply putting the foal down !
		
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Same, yes, it will probably be worthless but anyone who could take a new mother's babe away must be utterly heartless.


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## teabiscuit (16 November 2014)

I think you missed some good news posts. A happy ending is on the cards


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## _GG_ (18 December 2014)

No More Twist / Doormouse...are you there?

I've tried to PM you on here and facebook and I'm not totally convinced the number I have found is yours because it's a digit missing and I've changed my phone now 

Anyway, PM's basically said that the little ones are here now and settling well so whenever you want to sort out getting your mare here, I am all ready and waiting 

Hope all is well with you and mini you and if I don't hear from you before...have a good Christmas xxx


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## meesha (18 December 2014)

Hoping you manage to contact them soon Happy Christmas jinglesmells, you are an inspiration..


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## Sukistokes2 (18 December 2014)

I am glad I read the end of this, rarely have I been made so angry about a thread. I could not follow it anymore. GG to the rescue. I hope it works out. Every baby is special and should be given the chance.


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## Feival (18 December 2014)

Elliesmemory1 said:



			Me too.
		
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And me!! I still have my bogof. He's 2.6yo


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