# Tips for field pacingand YO issue please.



## Illusion100 (5 August 2015)

Long one, sorry! As mentioned in a previous thread my horse started pacing the fence line when turned into a paddock at a recent yard. 

He was been on individual t/o since 2 yrs old and I've never had this problem. On recent yard he initially was turned out in a paddock with no nearby horses for company but was right next to the yard/car park/arena and settled brilliantly. Then after 8 days the YO requested him moved to a different paddock a significant distance from the yard. He had 6 other horses around him for company but spend most of his time pacing the fence line closest to yard, often stopping to stare over at the yard in the corner of the field closest to it.

I could tell he was spending most of his time doing it as 90% of poo was being trampled into the track and as you can imagine, a nightmare to clean! As the YO refused to move him into any of the numerous spare paddocks close to the yard and the Vet recommended calmer was ineffective, I moved yards.

He has settled very well at this yard, the best I've known him to (he is even settled enough to be put back into a bit of work). He is in a daily routine and his paddock is next to the arena, closest to stable block. He can see everything that is going on, has numerous paddock neighbours and all was well with the world. 

Then, one day middle of last week he started pacing again, luckily YO has a little Shetland that was put in with him and he settled soon after. I decided to try him on his own again thereafter to see if it was a one off. He didn't pace again until today, so Shetland is in again with him now. He has been at new yard for 16 days and is not on any calmer as it didn't make any difference to his pacing previously.

Throughout his life if he got frustrated/anxious/upset in field, he would have a bomb about throwing his legs everywhere and then snort/prance around with his tail over his back for a bit, then carry on grazing. Now he clearly has this learned behaviour of pacing instead.

So, tips to stop pacing full stop please?! It is unlikely I will be able to stay at current yard long term as it is a considerable distance and I am very reluctant to have to end up buying a companion pony. The pacing is methodical and systematic, he is not notably stressed and I'm struggling to determine the root cause.

Also I have poo picked previous paddock at recent yard that he made the track/continuously trampled poo into but YO is unhappy. It is simply humanely impossible (unless you wished to get on your hands and knees and spend hours picking tiny bits of trampled poo from the grass edges of the track) to do this! The contract requests that you leave the stable and paddock clear. I have replied that I have poo-picked to the best of my ability and haven't heard back. I informed them late June that he was wearing a track and that clearing the trampled poo was a difficult task but they offered no alternative management. I am a bit unsure what else can be reasonably expected of me and what to say if they refuse to accept the paddock has been cleared?

Thanks everyone.


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## Polos Mum (5 August 2015)

Sounds like a companion keeps him happy, lots of charities will loan you one and (I think) the blue cross even give you a contribution to wormer, vacs etc. - not cheap but maybe better than having such an unhappy horse ?


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## LittleGinger (5 August 2015)

Will the YO not allow the shetland to stay in with him? This seems like the ideal solution. He sounds happier with company, and this saves you needing to buy/loan that company!


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## oldie48 (5 August 2015)

Poor you and poor horse! he needs a companion, doesn't he? I know some horses are happy as long as they can see another horse but many aren't and TBH I don't think you will stop the pacing. I'd look for another yard where they turn out in a small group or try to get a companion for him. I watched my two this evening when I turned them out, Mr B just wanted a good scratch from his friend and watching them groom each other was lovely, horses need to be able to socialise and frankly, humans just don't fill the gap for so many of them!


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## Illusion100 (5 August 2015)

Polos Mum said:



			Sounds like a companion keeps him happy, lots of charities will loan you one and (I think) the blue cross even give you a contribution to wormer, vacs etc. - not cheap but maybe better than having such an unhappy horse ?
		
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So far at this new yard, he has been very happy and calm (for him!). He hasn't required a chain to be lead/handled and is being very easy for others to handle on a daily basis. His feet are already in much better condition now he spends the majority of his time eating, he no longer has that 'banana' shape from constantly pacing with his head in the air, his musculature is greatly improved in a rounded/balanced form and he is taking all of the yard goings-on in his stride and I put him on the lunge for the first time in months and he was really sensible and enjoyed himself.

If anyone has a companion pony, I would be interested in knowing average costs to keep.


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## Illusion100 (5 August 2015)

LittleGinger said:



			Will the YO not allow the shetland to stay in with him? This seems like the ideal solution. He sounds happier with company, and this saves you needing to buy/loan that company!
		
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Yes, I can keep her in with him. He will go out with her daily as I wish to determine if this is a possible long-term solution. If he then starts pacing with a companion in the field, I will be at my wits end!!!


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## Tiddlypom (5 August 2015)

Illusion100 said:



			If he then starts pacing with a companion in the field, I will be at my wits end!!!
		
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Is herd turnout an option?


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## Illusion100 (5 August 2015)

oldie48 said:



			Poor you and poor horse! he needs a companion, doesn't he? I know some horses are happy as long as they can see another horse but many aren't and TBH I don't think you will stop the pacing. I'd look for another yard where they turn out in a small group or try to get a companion for him. I watched my two this evening when I turned them out, Mr B just wanted a good scratch from his friend and watching them groom each other was lovely, horses need to be able to socialise and frankly, humans just don't fill the gap for so many of them!
		
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Will keep little pony in with him to see how it goes. I'm just very confused as this pacing is a very new behaviour. He had been on individual t/o for the past 3 years without a hint of pacing. I initially thought he started pacing at that yard in that paddock because he felt a isolated from the yard as he had just come back from some time at a very busy eventing yard and was upset because he couldn't see what was going on. Then I thought I'd cracked it with current yard set-up, obviously not!


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## LittleGinger (5 August 2015)

Illusion100 said:



			If anyone has a companion pony, I would be interested in knowing average costs to keep. 

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My lad is £75 a month grazing (so that depends on your yard). He has Veteran Vitality (£11-12/bag, lasts around 50 days @ 400g hard feed a day); turmeric (£10 bag, lasts about six months); pepper; copper (can't remember cost but minimal!). Dentist £55 a year; farrier £25 every 8-10 weeks. Insurance £19 a month. Jabs £80 a year. Wormer - about £20 a year. 
Hay in winter is about £100-130 a winter. 

That's it, I think...


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## Illusion100 (5 August 2015)

Tiddlypom said:



			Is herd turnout an option?
		
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On current yard, no. I have also had bad experiences of this in the past and would hope to avoid it unless there was absolutely no other choice.


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## FinkleyAlex (5 August 2015)

OP I appreciate this is a hard situation - I also have a pony that cannot be left alone, or rather can be left alone but freaks out if he even *considers* that he'll be left out alone properly ie. another horse nearby is brought in. For years I had to have him turned out late and brought in early. Herd turnout was no longer an option as he'd been kicked four times seriously (numerous times non-seriously) and had to have surgery on his knee as a result, all in two years. Eventually I bought another ridden horse and put them out together, original pony is now perfectly happy and stays out 24/7 with his 'brother'. I now have a new problem - original pony is happy to leave his brother and vice versa, but if original pony is taken out and his brother is left behind then he goes absolutely mental. So I now have a happy elderly retired pony, and a young needy pansy ridden horse. The ideal solution for you OP would be to find a yard with permanent (as possible) small groups for turnout - three or four horses max. Enough for them to not get overly attached but not enough to create herd-related issues etc. I know it's hard to find but I'd definitely try that before going down the companion route.


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## Illusion100 (5 August 2015)

I see where you are coming from! Have had some awful experiences of group turn out too, injury wise.

When I got this horse at 5 months old I put him with my retired eventer. After time I couldn't do much with the youngster as my old horse developed separation anxiety which then quickly spread to the youngster. The time approached when youngster was 2 for the old horse to be PTS. After getting numerous opinions, I followed the one most recommended. Move them to a new yard, separate on arrival and new surroundings will help keep them distracted from each other, therefore old horse wouldn't be stressed by being separated to be PTS/nor youngster witness mentor PTS. Old horse had a few months of enjoying Summer and was PTS very calmly. 

Youngster was on individual t/o for 3 years and wintered out. He was on his own every night during winter and couldn't have cared less. 

On recent yard, he settled very well with no company nearby at all next to yard but quickly developed this pacing when put in paddock away from yard surrounded by other horses. I noticed he did not care about leaving the others when I took him to yard to do something with him but got upset when any horse was taken from their own paddock for the same reason. However once they were out of sight, they were out of mind, which also made me think he was more concerned about being 'left out' of what was going on rather than anything else.

I actually have little doubt he will start pacing after the novelty of a companion wears off (ever the optimist eh?!), hence why I was hoping for ideas on how to break the cycle that doesn't involve other horses.

In reply to FinkleyAlex!


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## MiJodsR2BlinkinTite (5 August 2015)

As a YO myself I can see that having a horse like this on any yard would pose serious difficulties as regards management.

The YO in OP's situation was presumably doing her best to manage a very complex problem and unfortunately some clients have no idea of the practical problems involved in trying to solve the difficulties that having a horse with this obviousl level of "issues" would place on any yard. YO has obviously done her best - and there are other clients on the yard in question and not just the OP with her difficult horse! A YO's nightmare I would say.....

This horse is obviously very sensitive and highly strung, and it might be that OP will have to keep moving her horse until she finds the right combination of field-companions, turnout, and livery/supervision - perhaps this horse would be better on a more structured yard rather than on a DIY set-up as it is obvious that there are some very complex issues involved in managing this particular horse. 

The other thing that occurs to me is that perhaps the whole exercise-to-food-to-turnout ratio needs to be addressed. Maybe this horse would benefit from being on working livery as it just might benefit from a little more work???

But I do think the YO in question has really done all she can; and if it was OP's stated responsibility in the livery contract to make sure the area was ship-shape before relinquishing her livery, then I do not think the YO can be blamed for that!! This horse has obviously been a very difficult animal to manage effectively, and as a YO myself, albeit on a very small scale, I think I'd certainly struggle, to the extent that I'd probably suggest to OP that her horse might well settle better on another yard...............

Not an easy horse to manage, obviously. But hopefully OP WILL find a situation, somewhere, which suits her and her horse.


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## Illusion100 (5 August 2015)

MiJodsR2BlinkinTite said:



			As a YO myself I can see that having a horse like this on any yard would pose serious difficulties as regards management.

The YO in OP's situation was presumably doing her best to manage a very complex problem and unfortunately some clients have no idea of the practical problems involved in trying to solve the difficulties that having a horse with this obviousl level of "issues" would place on any yard. YO has obviously done her best - and there are other clients on the yard in question and not just the OP with her difficult horse! A YO's nightmare I would say.....

This horse is obviously very sensitive and highly strung, and it might be that OP will have to keep moving her horse until she finds the right combination of field-companions, turnout, and livery/supervision - perhaps this horse would be better on a more structured yard rather than on a DIY set-up as it is obvious that there are some very complex issues involved in managing this particular horse. 

The other thing that occurs to me is that perhaps the whole exercise-to-food-to-turnout ratio needs to be addressed. Maybe this horse would benefit from being on working livery as it just might benefit from a little more work???

But I do think the YO in question has really done all she can; and if it was OP's stated responsibility in the livery contract to make sure the area was ship-shape before relinquishing her livery, then I do not think the YO can be blamed for that!! This horse has obviously been a very difficult animal to manage effectively, and as a YO myself, albeit on a very small scale, I think I'd certainly struggle, to the extent that I'd probably suggest to OP that her horse might well settle better on another yard...............

Not an easy horse to manage, obviously. But hopefully OP WILL find a situation, somewhere, which suits her and her horse.
		
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As the OP, I have to disagree with you.

That YO did ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to assist with the pacing issue! He has never done this in his 5 years of life and although they were aware he settled very calmly in initial paddock they refused to move him back into the empty paddock that he was originally in. How is that 'managing' anything? As a YO, how can you possibly justify leaving a horse to pace and start splitting his feet and ignore concerns from the owner? Would you do it to your own? They were quite happy to take my livery money though! I have poo-picked the field (I'd poo picked daily in all the time he was there), what am I supposed to do, hoover the paddock and re turf the track?! Most of that yards clients are coincidently on waiting lists at other yards for various and similar reasons, it's not just me with the issue. 

Horse has been on current yard for 16 days, hardly any time at all and has paced on 2 separate occasions for about half an hour, vast improvement I'd say! This current YO actually gives a **** about her clients and their horses and we've found the Shetland as a companion has worked, they are happy to turn them out together and we will see how it goes. This yard is part or full livery only and so he is on a structured daily routine. He is on no hard feed and now after a couple of remedial farriery sessions are his feet in good enough shape to have started back into light work at the weekend.

I discussed at length my horses background with current YO as I did with the previous YO, the difference is this YO cares. We actually went together to move my horse to her yard as I wanted her to see first hand the pacing behaviour, track he'd made and seen being handled on the understanding that if they felt he would be unsuitable for their yard on part livery they could turn us down before moving him. I want what is right for everyone involved and having my horses welfare disregarded isn't something I should have had to pay for.

So far horse really is doing great on new yard. It's small but active and he hasn't put a hoof out of line with anyone and they are happy for him to stay as long as I wish. I'm just concerned about this new learned behaviour and wish to prevent it happening again at all costs and so looking for experiences and advice.


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## TandD (5 August 2015)

(Not been on here for ages...all very different :S)

My horse learnt that fence walking would get him what he wanted - being brought in - as my YO doesn't like horses doing anything other than grazing in a field. He ended up fence walking for 7.5 hours once and me wanting to kill him for the mess he made of the field. YO then got nasty over an issue she caused.
I reduced the issue by changing up his turnout for a bit, keeping him in for longer in the morning and therefore he wanted to stay out. Just gradually started putting him out earlier once settled and he's been happy since.
YO also stopped bringing him in when he went faster than an ambling walk.


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## be positive (5 August 2015)

I think because it is learned stereotypical behaviour that it will be far harder to completely break than it was to learn, he seems more settled now, the YO is interested in helping unlike the last YO who seemed far more concerned about her field than her clients or their animals, being a YO can be a thankless task at times but I always have the care of the horse as my primary concern and will look at things from every angle when required if the horse is unwell or unhappy for some reason, it is not all about the bottom line it is about the welfare and well being of the horse.  

I would hope that once he is in work he will use some of his energy in that, his mind is obviously ready to be doing more, this shows in that he is watching the yard activities rather than being interested in eating or being with the others, can he start doing something every day now? even just 10 mins in hand or on long reins doing pole work or something that makes him think may be enough to help get him totally relaxed when he goes out.
I think although it is somewhat pandering to him I would probably either bring him in before I thought he may start walking, you usually get a sense of what may trigger it and could prevent it by bringing him in or bring him in as soon as he gets started, yes it is rewarding him in some peoples eyes but it may help to break the habit if he never really gets started.
My horse has at times got into a real state charging about and gets very wound up, if I can get him in before he really gets going then it seems to relax him and I can turn him out after a while without him setting off again, yours may like to come in for an hour each lunch time or even when the yard is busy if he prefers, extra work for the staff but it may reduce his boredom if he has some time being more involved to break up each day.


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## YorksG (5 August 2015)

The pacing is a typical stereotypey, not a learned begaviour IMO. The fact that this has stopped in response to having a companion, confirms this for me. You may have thought he was ok on his own, but obviously this is not the case. He does indeed sound like a difficult animal to place and would ideally be best kept on the owners own land, with at least one companion, where his management would not affect others. YO, whether they care, or not, have to consider the management of their land for all liveries. I do not know what the original paddock was kept for, but if it was the isolation paddock, I can understand why they did not want it occupying for any length of time. I can also see that if it was close to the yard, they would want it for winter turnout.


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## Illusion100 (5 August 2015)

TandD said:



			(Not been on here for ages...all very different :S)

My horse learnt that fence walking would get him what he wanted - being brought in - as my YO doesn't like horses doing anything other than grazing in a field. He ended up fence walking for 7.5 hours once and me wanting to kill him for the mess he made of the field. YO then got nasty over an issue she caused.
I reduced the issue by changing up his turnout for a bit, keeping him in for longer in the morning and therefore he wanted to stay out. Just gradually started putting him out earlier once settled and he's been happy since.
YO also stopped bringing him in when he went faster than an ambling walk.
		
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I know how you felt. Trying to clear that track everyday was just a nightmare! Like trying to get chewing gum out of hair! Really glad your boy has settled now.


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## Illusion100 (5 August 2015)

YorksG said:



			The pacing is a typical stereotypey, not a learned begaviour IMO. The fact that this has stopped in response to having a companion, confirms this for me. You may have thought he was ok on his own, but obviously this is not the case. He does indeed sound like a difficult animal to place and would ideally be best kept on the owners own land, with at least one companion, where his management would not affect others. YO, whether they care, or not, have to consider the management of their land for all liveries. I do not know what the original paddock was kept for, but if it was the isolation paddock, I can understand why they did not want it occupying for any length of time. I can also see that if it was close to the yard, they would want it for winter turnout.
		
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He stopped pacing immediately at new yard for 10 days (so a significant change in behaviour), then started mid afternoon so Shetland went in for that afternoon. Then he was fine again until today, so Shetland went in again. 

Previous yard (where pacing started) has approx. 20 empty paddocks, 5 of which surround yard. If they had even said to me 'they are winter paddocks and we cannot have them used during summer, under the circumstances we can move your horse to the original paddock with a months notice to find somewhere else', I would have been fine with that.


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## Ebenezer_Scrooge (5 August 2015)

.....wrong thread stupid phone


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## Illusion100 (5 August 2015)

be positive said:



			I think because it is learned stereotypical behaviour that it will be far harder to completely break than it was to learn, he seems more settled now, the YO is interested in helping unlike the last YO who seemed far more concerned about her field than her clients or their animals, being a YO can be a thankless task at times but I always have the care of the horse as my primary concern and will look at things from every angle when required if the horse is unwell or unhappy for some reason, it is not all about the bottom line it is about the welfare and well being of the horse.  

I would hope that once he is in work he will use some of his energy in that, his mind is obviously ready to be doing more, this shows in that he is watching the yard activities rather than being interested in eating or being with the others, can he start doing something every day now? even just 10 mins in hand or on long reins doing pole work or something that makes him think may be enough to help get him totally relaxed when he goes out.
I think although it is somewhat pandering to him I would probably either bring him in before I thought he may start walking, you usually get a sense of what may trigger it and could prevent it by bringing him in or bring him in as soon as he gets started, yes it is rewarding him in some peoples eyes but it may help to break the habit if he never really gets started.
My horse has at times got into a real state charging about and gets very wound up, if I can get him in before he really gets going then it seems to relax him and I can turn him out after a while without him setting off again, yours may like to come in for an hour each lunch time or even when the yard is busy if he prefers, extra work for the staff but it may reduce his boredom if he has some time being more involved to break up each day.
		
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Yard is 50 mins away and so he's on a livery package where he is turned out, mucked out, poo picked and brought in mon-fri so I only go a few times a week. I will be working him on the days I go and YO working him other days is not an option available. 

He's a little rusty (or being a 'I know what I'm doing, leave it to me') so I need just to get him listening before extending his workload over the next few weeks. I hope for his saddle to arrive in the next 6 weeks so I can finally get on him! He definitely wants to do more/be involved, for instance he'd rather have stood being showered in the wash box than go back to bed, so will be upping his learning curve/general handling and workload. It may sound strange but with this type if horse I prefer for them to WANT to be handled/worked etc than expecting compliance, so to speak, it just seems to make things much easier! Now he is at that stage (and his feet are recovered enough) we can get on with it. I hope this will be enough to tire his mind a bit, otherwise I will look into your suggestions, thank you. 

I was very disappointed that my horses individual welfare was disregarded at last yard and yes, they care far more about aesthetic appearance of paddocks. I was actually taken aback that when I said my horse was pacing a track, trampling in poo and I was struggling to clear the mess, they weren't interested. Now they have a problem with it. I just don't get it!


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## smellsofhorse (6 August 2015)

The root cause is stress due to having no company.
It may look methodical but it is his way of releasing stress.

He needs proper company. One other may help or may cause a separation issues. Really he needs to be in herd.
He will be so much happier.
Could you find a nice turnout field?
Especually if you arnt riding much.

Calmers can take weeks to show a difference. But they won't get rid of the real issue.


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## Goldenstar (6 August 2015)

IMO the horse needs company in the field, I would rather risk injury and allow my horses the company of friends than impose an unnatural and boring way of life .
He also needs more work and a busy life it's not ideal but if the yard has a walker get him on it daily .
Individual turnout in small paddocks while doing little work is simply asking for issues like this .
A horse like this needs the roultine and mental exercise of daily work ,Illusion are sure this is the horse for you ?
This does sounds like a horse I would be working seven days a week I just can't see how ,given all you have posted about him the routine you suggest is going to be enough .


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## Elsbells (6 August 2015)

Looking at it from outside the box and the fact that you said he was happy on a busy yard, grazed close to the stables, I'd say he's like my mare and doesn't like to be as he sees it.....excluded.
I cannot stick my mare in a last paddock, no matter how many horses are out there for company because she doesn't give a hoot about other horses, she just wants to be in the thick of it. She feels secure with all the comings and goings, the dog walkers saying hello and of course knowing where everyone is and her importance! God forbid, some horse or human attempt to do something without her permission! 
She does however as others have already said, benefit enormously from lots of work and hacking in particular. They are horses with active brains I'm afraid and its a bit like keeping a working collie in a crate all day, you going to get trouble!


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## Hetsmum (6 August 2015)

Goldenstar said:



			IMO the horse needs company in the field, I would rather risk injury and allow my horses the company of friends than impose an unnatural and boring way of life .
He also needs more work and a busy life it's not ideal but if the yard has a walker get him on it daily .
Individual turnout in small paddocks while doing little work is simply asking for issues like this .
A horse like this needs the roultine and mental exercise of daily work ,Illusion are sure this is the horse for you ?
This does sounds like a horse I would be working seven days a week I just can't see how ,given all you have posted about him the routine you suggest is going to be enough .
		
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^^^^^This^^^^^^^^^^  Young male horses are hardwired to 'play' as part of their natural behaviour.  Some cope without this need fulfilled, some do not.  I have had both types of youngster.  My youngest is now 9 and still has the need to 'play' regularly having been deprived of it as a 2 year old (not in my care).  Scary as the chunks of hair missing etc are he is a (relatively) sane horse now...........


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## ihatework (6 August 2015)

To me it sounds like the type of horse that would flourish in a group turnout situation.

He sounds like quite an unhappy horse.


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## Achinghips (6 August 2015)

Some just can't respond to the unpredictability of others comings and goings and need strict routine and predictability in time tabling, combined with decent horse proof, purposely designed buildings. When I moved my insane tb to full livery from an unprofessional DIY set up she turned into a dream horse. Why? Predictability. If one was in, they were all in, if one out, all out, if one fed, all fed.  If one had, hay, all had hay. Regime and exercise worked like clockwork and she thrived.

The only way to stop pacing full stop is to change the environment.


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## Exploding Chestnuts (6 August 2015)

Illusion100 said:



			So far at this new yard, he has been very happy and calm (for him!). He hasn't required a chain to be lead/handled and is being very easy for others to handle on a daily basis. His feet are already in much better condition now he spends the majority of his time eating, he no longer has that 'banana' shape from constantly pacing with his head in the air, his musculature is greatly improved in a rounded/balanced form and he is taking all of the yard goings-on in his stride and I put him on the lunge for the first time in months and he was really sensible and enjoyed himself.

If anyone has a companion pony, I would be interested in knowing average costs to keep. 

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Ask the charities for an easy to keep companion, the basic cost is going to depend on the yard charge, after that a £1.00 a day is a normal budget, you are in the lap of the gods if you buy an unknown pony from an unknown person, but you could take a loan from someone, specify no sweet itch or anything that requires you to pay for medicaments.  
Agree that this horse needs a field companion, probably better in a herd situation tbh. An unhappy horse is a sad thing esp when it is obvious how to sort it.


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## ester (6 August 2015)

Illusion100 said:



			So, tips to stop pacing full stop please?! It is unlikely I will be able to stay at current yard long term as it is a considerable distance and I am very reluctant to have to end up buying a companion pony. The pacing is methodical and systematic, he is not notably stressed and I'm struggling to determine the root cause.
		
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Methodical and systematic doesn't mean not stressed, in fact it is a sure sign of it like all stereotypies and happens across many animals (mammals at least)- repetitive movements are self soothing. Although he has been ok on his own before he clearly isn't any more, whether that is an accumulation of an issue of being turned out on his own since 2 (very young to have to cope with life as a prey animal on your own) or due to a different triggering factor that is the situation now and you will have to adjust his management, and your livery options accordingly and if you can't sell him. Yes there is the risk of injury- but there is just as much risk in him injuring himself pacing.


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## luckyoldme (6 August 2015)

smellsofhorse said:



			The root cause is stress due to having no company.
It may look methodical but it is his way of releasing stress.

He needs proper company. One other may help or may cause a separation issues. Really he needs to be in herd.
He will be so much happier.
Could you find a nice turnout field?
Especually if you arnt riding much.

Calmers can take weeks to show a difference. But they won't get rid of the real issue.
		
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I totally agree with this poster, and have commented before on this same subject with the same op. I really do feel like kidnapping this horse and hoying him out 24/7 with my horse and his friends. Im speaking only as someone with a horse who has fence walked, cribbed and fretted on his own due to his own aggressive behaviour with other horses. Three years later the same horse is out 24/7 , settled , a doddle to handle and the most chilled out character you could imagine. 
i completely understand the ops reluctance to do this, but horses need to be horses. The way i see it Is that i am with my horse one hour a day, If he is happy and content for the other 23 hours then he is much more likely to be setlled and calm for the one hour i spend with him.


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## Meowy Catkin (6 August 2015)

I'm actually quite shocked that he was put on individual turnout as a two year old.


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## Maesfen (6 August 2015)

smellsofhorse said:



			The root cause is stress due to having no company.
It may look methodical but it is his way of releasing stress.

He needs proper company. One other may help or may cause a separation issues. Really he needs to be in herd.
He will be so much happier.
Could you find a nice turnout field?
Especually if you arnt riding much.

Calmers can take weeks to show a difference. But they won't get rid of the real issue.
		
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This I think is the root of the problem; it is very much a stress thing that he's found helps him to cope with his problems which to a certain extent you have brought on him whether knowingly or not.  He is not a happy horse or at least the one you describe is not a happy horse and you need to be able to address that for him, even if that something is not something you want to do.  They are gregarious creatures, they need to be in a herd; yes, there will be a pecking order, there is in any herd but he would soon stop being the new kid on the block and be accepted.
I positively hate individual turnout; it is against all horsemanship principles and is there simply to satisfy the owner; it is a very rare horse indeed that 'needs' individual turnout and usually those needs are man made., they wouldn't have been there without human intervention.   Even Carl Hester's lot are turned out with company, he knows how important it is for them and look how much they are worth.

As to original YO.  Firstly: the pacing was a problem and they would want it restricted to the one field; why on earth would they want another field carved up like that to be virtually useless until it had recovered?  I'm not surprised they didn't want you in another field TBH, having a pacer on the yard is a nightmare and it usually costs more than it will ever bring in.  Think of it in simple terms, like a landlord with bad tenants that leave the place in a tip or damaged which they have to pay to put right before they can let again; in some cases that 'putting right' can cost more than the rent.  Land is exactly the same, normal maintenance is expensive enough without damage being caused to it as well.

The only serious paddock injuries I've had here in 25 years were both due to paddock pacers (different ones) and both resulted in my horses being put down even though they were unforeseeable and I actually saw them happening at the time with nothing I could do about it.  
One due to walking the fenceline even though in with the herd, he got on well with them and my filly didn't get out of his way so he ploughed right into her breaking her elbow badly; the other where he barged the fence to get in with mine (he was a bit riggy hence why he was separated and the owner was looking for somewhere else with geldings only), got short shift from my dominant mare so he turned at speed and took the fencing out with him as he tore up the field which tangled around and tripped up my filly who was going to take her chance and escape with him; she somersaulted so hard it severed her spinal cord just behind her head.  That was also the cause of us having post & rail instead of electric.   Both very distressing and complete freak accidents but it's enough to put me off fence walkers for life as you can imagine, they are a YO's nightmare.


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## Amymay (6 August 2015)

I agree with much of what's been said about the horse having a companion.

That aside, can you not give him a job to do?

Your description of him makes me think of under stimulated animals in a zoo - bored, bored, bored.


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## Caol Ila (6 August 2015)

Fencewalking...  it sucks.  

My horse has a PhD in fencewalking.  She's on individual turnout, and I really, really do not have a choice due to her aggressive behaviour and the fact that we have to be on livery yards. She's one of the few horses where this has to be done for the safety of herself and others.  But she's lovely to handle.  Her people social skills are fabulous, while her equine ones are useless.  If I had my own land and could get her a pony of her very own, she could have companion, but this is not remotely possible at the moment.  

That said, so long as she is managed in the right way, she does not fencewalk.  I've determined fencewalking is something she does when pissed off by something, so I have to work out what she's unhappy about.  Then change it.  Leaving her to get over it never works.  First of all, DIY yards are totally out.  She does it like a maniac if all the horses at the yard are on a random routine.  She needs to be in a paddock where there are horses on all sides that don't go out of sight.   She also hates the weather in the West of Scotland; I never had full neck rugs until I moved here.  

At the moment, she does not pace in the summer; I think the summer field isn't as blasted by the wind, and there's enough juicy grass to keep her busy.  Pacing during the winter has been a problem: I blame the weather, and less grass to distract her from it.  They get hay when turned out, but it's obviously not entertaining enough.  At the yard, the horses are turned out at 7:30am and come in at about 3:45pm.  In the winter, when it's not blowing sideways rain, she can be out until bring in time.  If the weather sucks, pacing can be prevented if you show up around 2pm and bring her in.  She kicks off between 2 and 3, usually.  I reckon if she had a field shelter or trees or a way to get out of the wind and rain, she might do it less.  But finding a livery yard that provides field shelters is the impossible dream.


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## MotherOfChickens (6 August 2015)

Faracat said:



			I'm actually quite shocked that he was put on individual turnout as a two year old.
		
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me too tbh. I have three geldings, 21, 7 and 4. They play all the time-even the 21yo but especially the youngsters-and are out on 5 acres of varied terrain to chase each other around-they chose to run up and down banks, over obstacles etc. Most horses not in hard work (and I'd argue even those that are) need this in their lives. He does sound like the type of horse who may get too attached to one field mate (and fgs don't get a mare for him) but also a horse thats been on individual turnout since he was 2 may find himself lacking in social skills. Stick him out in a small, stable herd somewhere with all shoes off and let him be a horse.


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## Goldenstar (6 August 2015)

Faracat said:



			I'm actually quite shocked that he was put on individual turnout as a two year old.
		
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Me to , I really don't think you need to look for any other reason for the difficulties with this horse .
A life spent in small single turnout paddocks is just not stimulating enough for clever bred to learn things warm bloods .


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## Illusion100 (6 August 2015)

Caol Ila said:



			Fencewalking...  it sucks.  

My horse has a PhD in fencewalking.  She's on individual turnout, and I really, really do not have a choice due to her aggressive behaviour and the fact that we have to be on livery yards. She's one of the few horses where this has to be done for the safety of herself and others.  But she's lovely to handle.  Her people social skills are fabulous, while her equine ones are useless.  If I had my own land and could get her a pony of her very own, she could have companion, but this is not remotely possible at the moment.  

That said, so long as she is managed in the right way, she does not fencewalk.  I've determined fencewalking is something she does when pissed off by something, so I have to work out what she's unhappy about.  Then change it.  Leaving her to get over it never works.  First of all, DIY yards are totally out.  She does it like a maniac if all the horses at the yard are on a random routine.  She needs to be in a paddock where there are horses on all sides that don't go out of sight.   She also hates the weather in the West of Scotland; I never had full neck rugs until I moved here.  

At the moment, she does not pace in the summer; I think the summer field isn't as blasted by the wind, and there's enough juicy grass to keep her busy.  Pacing during the winter has been a problem: I blame the weather, and less grass to distract her from it.  They get hay when turned out, but it's obviously not entertaining enough.  At the yard, the horses are turned out at 7:30am and come in at about 3:45pm.  In the winter, when it's not blowing sideways rain, she can be out until bring in time.  If the weather sucks, pacing can be prevented if you show up around 2pm and bring her in.  She kicks off between 2 and 3, usually.  I reckon if she had a field shelter or trees or a way to get out of the wind and rain, she might do it less.  But finding a livery yard that provides field shelters is the impossible dream.
		
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It is very frustrating isn't it! From what I can gather, on this yard if he's going to do it he starts around midday/early lunchtime and then stops again shortly after and goes back to grazing. So far he hasn't worn a track, which is better than before.

Shetland was being a kids pony this morning so mine was on his own but was fine. Shortly after the Shetland got turned out with him he started pacing, after a while they took the Shetland out and he stopped, so having a companion hasn't worked.

Current yard has a solid routine. No DIY and horses are turned out brought in at same time. Everything is the same everyday.

Off to work him shortly and picking him up a spacehopper, treatball and turnip for him to play with in field. Will swop the haynet from the side he paces to the opposite side and put his toys on the opposite side to encourage him away from that fenceline. 

Also thinking of putting some poles down in the middle of the side he paces on to make him have to stop and think about something and putting barrels in front of the spots he tends to turn at again to try and interrupt the pattern.

YO has just called and I've checked that's ok with her and she has told me that 9 times out of 10 he's grazing, it's just now and then he starts for a bit before settling down again so try not to worry too much! She say's it's just because she is there all day she notices everything and so she's let me know that he has paced a bit but he's certainly not doing it particularly frequently or everyday. So it's definitely a massive improvement from last yard.


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## SpringArising (6 August 2015)

You seem hell-bent on keeping this horse alone. I commented on your other thread about this (a lot of other people did too) saying that he needed a companion. 

I'm not sure what you're expecting in terms of replies really if you're not willing to get him a permanent companion? 

He's pacing because he's stressed. That is literally it. Your own fears of him being hurt is causing a very unhappy, lonely horse. What is more important to you - his physical wellbeing or his mental?


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## Illusion100 (6 August 2015)

Maesfen said:



			As to original YO.  Firstly: the pacing was a problem and they would want it restricted to the one field; why on earth would they want another field carved up like that to be virtually useless until it had recovered?  I'm not surprised they didn't want you in another field TBH, having a pacer on the yard is a nightmare and it usually costs more than it will ever bring in.  Think of it in simple terms, like a landlord with bad tenants that leave the place in a tip or damaged which they have to pay to put right before they can let again; in some cases that 'putting right' can cost more than the rent.  Land is exactly the same, normal maintenance is expensive enough without damage being caused to it as well.
		
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YO was fully aware he didn't pace in original paddock, only in this one. They could have easily have moved him back to initial paddock where he didn't pace with 1 months notice on the agreement that if he started pacing in original paddock he must go back into the tracked paddock before harm came to the other paddock until he was moved from the property. Not exactly rocket science.

That said, they were happy to leave him pacing, take my livery money and not mention anything about it. 

When looking for other yards, I explained he had originally settled but started pacing when moved to a different paddock away from yard. If I moved him to their yard what would happen if he didn't settle in the 1st paddock he was put into. Each and every YO replied they would simply move him to a different paddock and see where they could get him settled.

Fence walkers are an owners nightmare as well! I'm sorry to hear about your horses.


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## Illusion100 (6 August 2015)

SpringArising said:



			You seem hell-bent on keeping this horse alone. I commented on your other thread about this (a lot of other people did too) saying that he needed a companion. 

I'm not sure what you're expecting in terms of replies really if you're not willing to get him a permanent companion? 

He's pacing because he's stressed. That is literally it. Your own fears of him being hurt is causing a very unhappy, lonely horse. What is more important to you - his physical wellbeing or his mental?
		
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YO advised he was pacing with the companion in the field, so that doesn't appear to be working.


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## SpringArising (6 August 2015)

Illusion100 said:



			YO advised he was pacing with the companion in the field, so that doesn't appear to be working.
		
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But it's been how long? Breaking the cycle is not an instantaneous thing. 

Putting him in with one Shetland for a bit, in broken up timescales, isn't going to make much of a difference. 

He needs to be occupied & be in a herd (however small or big) with proper dynamics - he needs to know his place, be put in it and stay there consistently, whether that means he's at the top or bottom of the pile. 

I'd be bored stiff if I were a horse on individual turnout. 

Blocking the original pacing path won't help - within one day he'll have found a new spot. You need to put your own fears aside for the sake of the horse - he's not happy and is telling you in the only way he can.


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## ester (6 August 2015)

I think it's hard to say that a companion shetland (when horses naturally pair up with those similar to them) who has not been in their permanently and only for a couple of days means that a companion/not turning him out alone isn't going to work.

I feel quite sorry for your horse having effectively been isolated for the last 3 years since he was quite young. I can't help think he would benefit from being in a field full of geldings to get his head straight for a bit and work out what being a horse is actually about.


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## Arzada (6 August 2015)

Illusion100 said:



			YO advised he was pacing with the companion in the field, so that doesn't appear to be working.
		
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I have moved Arzada a few times. It is usually about a year later that I realise how settled he has become. A yard change is  a bit like arriving in a foreign land with a different culture, different people, different horses/companions. different routines, different language  etc and for this reason I allow a lot longer for a horse to settle. I worked on a yard for 4 years - there weren't many changes but the same applied to the new horses - you'd suddenly think 'Oh x seems settled' and realise they had been with you about a year. Consider how long it would take you to settle in a foreign land. 

My kind advice is to be kind to yourself and to your horse and allow things to settle. Arzada has always lived in herd at great sacrifice time wise and petrol wise to me. Even if you can't consider herd turnout then I urge you to keep a companion and if he's happy with the Shetland mare and the YO is agreeable then keep it that way for as long as possible.


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## paddi22 (6 August 2015)

if he was mine i'd turn him away in a field with other gelding to play with for a long time.  No livery and being brought in and out, just out 24/7 to figure himself out. I've a yearling and I could never imagine how she would have coped on individual turnout, it is so unnatural and the results are what you are struggling with now.  Risk of injury isn't a reason of keeping a horse isolated, they need to be a horse. If it was mine i'd toss it into the biggest, most stimulating field I could find, and leave it in peace for a while.  It sounds like a very unhappy difficult horse. You have tried your best and I don't think finding the right routine is the answer, i think the horse just needs to be left alone to be a horse.


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## atlantis (6 August 2015)

paddi22 said:



			if he was mine i'd turn him away in a field with other gelding to play with for a long time.  No livery and being brought in and out, just out 24/7 to figure himself out. I've a yearling and I could never imagine how she would have coped on individual turnout, it is so unnatural and the results are what you are struggling with now.  Risk of injury isn't a reason of keeping a horse isolated, they need to be a horse. If it was mine i'd toss it into the biggest, most stimulating field I could find, and leave it in peace for a while.  It sounds like a very unhappy difficult horse. You have tried your best and I don't think finding the right routine is the answer, i think the horse just needs to be left alone to be a horse.
		
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This with bells on!!!!!!! 

I had a horse who was tethered by travellers as a youngster, rescued and then sold to a family who couldn't handle him, so I bought him. 

First yard was herd turnout mares and geldings separated, which was great to begin with until the mates all came into season. This made him blow his top, get in with the mares and the YO made me isolate him. I therefore moved him a couple of times before I found a yard with the right companions for him (4 of them in total) who wouldn't stand for his crap (he would annoy them constantly) and they taught him to be a horse. It took me a long time to find the right yard. Years in total. Trial and error really. 

When the YO sold this yard 3 years later I could only find individual turnout for him again and he started pacing. So I sold him, being very honest about the set-up he needed and vetting the home carefully. I sold him to people who had their own land and a number of horses all in together and would keep him out and about and busy. He is still with them 9 years later and very happy and settled. He is an awesome horse if he is happy. He was only difficult because he was unhappy. He was my first horse... It was a steep learning curve. 

If I were doing it again I would try to find a herd environment for him again straight away away from a DIY livery yard environment, as mentioned above. However this is almost impossible to find around me for the 1 horse owner, but I would try. Oh to own my own land.


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## Illusion100 (6 August 2015)

Well, I sat and watched him tonight for around half an hour when I got to yard. He quietly grazed the field and didn't lift his head.

Brought him in and got him ready for a lunge, then realised someone was having a private lesson. So lunged him in his paddock. First time he has been lunged on grass and 2nd time he's been lunged since having a holiday from June. We had a combine harvester working in opposite crop field and a horse jumping in the arena next to paddock, then we went to stand and watch the lesson for a while. He was pretty much foot perfect and listening attentively unlike last Sat when he was a little distracted and anticipating what to do.

As Arzada said he has been on a new yard for a very short time, so I think he's doing pretty great tbf. 

I know I'm not the only person who has a horse that has presented with unwanted behaviour. However he doesn't bite, kick, weave, crib bite, windsuck, barge, pull, wall kick, paw, chew wood, hoon about/buck on lunge, have loading/travelling issues nor food/horse/animal/human aggression and is mannerly to handle. 

He is very sociable, affectionate, loves a fuss and now seems to thoroughly enjoy seeing what's going on and who is doing what. I highly doubt he is the only horse in the world that likes to be nosey.

He began pacing a new paddock because he felt isolated from the yard in a new environment after being on a very busy yard, I can't quite see how individual t/o is the cause as he has never paced in the previous 3 years. As expressed numerous times, he is not a seasoned pacer/fence walker. Now he is, for the majority of the time, very settled but can get a bit stressed in an another new environment now and then. Again, highly doubtful he is the only horse that has had issues like this.


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## Caol Ila (7 August 2015)

I would not wish individual turnout on anything.  It's a royal pain in the ass when you move and have to find a yard with an acceptable set-up.  I would not do it if it were not necessary and believe me, the next horse I get is going to be so, so very socialized....  

I do think they're less inclined to be pissed off at other things in their environment if they have a relatively stable herd and know where they fit in.


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## JennBags (7 August 2015)

OP every single reply on this thread has been to tell you your horse is unhappy on individual turnout.  Every single reply.  HHO rarely agrees like this.  Why do you refuse to see this?

Your personal preference is for individual turnout. Your horse's personal preference is clearly NOT.  Either you need to change your mind and let him be a horse with other horses, or for HIS sanity, let him go to a home which accepts this and get yourself a horse who accepts individual turnout.

That he has only just started showing this stressed behaviour recently is a red herring, he may have always felt it to a certain degree but only recently worked out how to express it.  A Shetland is not a particularly suitable companion for a larger horse, horses bond with others similar to themselves so they can easily mutually groom.

Anyway it feels pretty pointless typing a reply as you will continue to come up with excuses to manage your horse the way you want to manage him, and he will continue to be stressed and unhappy, and you will continue to refuse to acknowledge it.  I feel very sorry for this horse, he's telling you quite clearly that he's unhappy and you won't listen to him, poor chap.


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## Doormouse (7 August 2015)

I'm afraid I too am in the camp that says turn him away with a herd so he can learn to be a horse. Since you have owned him I think you have treated him like your baby and not a horse. Older horses are usually fine with this but young horses quickly become soft, spoilt and actually very stressed. Just because he has never paced before doesn't mean he has never been stressed, look at the trouble you have had with him over the years, all of them examples of a young horse who has no idea how to behave and thinks he is a human.

The very best lessons our horses learn are from others of their own species, they learn to be aware of space, theirs and other horses, they learn to find shelter and shade, they learn to forage, they learn to play, how to play and when it goes too far. All this they learn from living with others.

OP, you have effectively taken away his childhood by keeping him as a segregated pet since he was two, he is still young, let him have a chance at learning to be a horse, you will have a much easier character when comes back.


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## luckyoldme (7 August 2015)

JennBags said:



			OP every single reply on this thread has been to tell you your horse is unhappy on individual turnout.  Every single reply.  HHO rarely agrees like this.  Why do you refuse to see this?

Your personal preference is for individual turnout. Your horse's personal preference is clearly NOT.  Either you need to change your mind and let him be a horse with other horses, or for HIS sanity, let him go to a home which accepts this and get yourself a horse who accepts individual turnout.

That he has only just started showing this stressed behaviour recently is a red herring, he may have always felt it to a certain degree but only recently worked out how to express it.  A Shetland is not a particularly suitable companion for a larger horse, horses bond with others similar to themselves so they can easily mutually groom.

Anyway it feels pretty pointless typing a reply as you will continue to come up with excuses to manage your horse the way you want to manage him, and he will continue to be stressed and unhappy, and you will continue to refuse to acknowledge it.  I feel very sorry for this horse, he's telling you quite clearly that he's unhappy and you won't listen to him, poor chap.
		
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Totally agree. I have seen the effects that herd turnout has had on a 18 year old horse previously kept on his own. I evan posted on here saying that individual turnout was the only option years ago. I was wrong then...and now the horse is 24 years old  living out his twighlight years having the time of his life.
Wall head bang.


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## twiggy2 (7 August 2015)

Faracat said:



			I'm actually quite shocked that he was put on individual turnout as a two year old.
		
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Me too.
my mare was kept in 6 days out of 7 and and turned out alone in a round pen once per week from the age of 1-2 (before I bought her), it took 18 months for the pacing to stop completely even when she has company in a large field with grass. Now 6 yrs later she can be turned out (alone) early whilst waiting for others to be turned out even if she cannot see anything else. You can bring others in and leave her out last but this does upset her for a few minutes, not a major upset but I still try to avoid it.

Op it is not natural for horses to be turned out alone and he is shouting as best he can that he is not happy, the pacing may be new but having to be lead in a chain etc etc is not the sign of a relaxed and happy horse-as an owner and someone who works with horse these stress indicating behaviours keep me awake at night as I try to think up ways to keep individual horses relaxed and happy whilst in my care. Some horses cope with individual turn out but it can really mess others up.


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## ester (7 August 2015)

Illusion100 said:



			Well, I sat and watched him tonight for around half an hour when I got to yard. He quietly grazed the field and didn't lift his head.

Brought him in and got him ready for a lunge, then realised someone was having a private lesson. So lunged him in his paddock. First time he has been lunged on grass and 2nd time he's been lunged since having a holiday from June. We had a combine harvester working in opposite crop field and a horse jumping in the arena next to paddock, then we went to stand and watch the lesson for a while. He was pretty much foot perfect and listening attentively unlike last Sat when he was a little distracted and anticipating what to do.

As Arzada said he has been on a new yard for a very short time, so I think he's doing pretty great tbf. 

I know I'm not the only person who has a horse that has presented with unwanted behaviour. However he doesn't bite, kick, weave, crib bite, windsuck, barge, pull, wall kick, paw, chew wood, hoon about/buck on lunge, have loading/travelling issues nor food/horse/animal/human aggression and is mannerly to handle. 

He is very sociable, affectionate, loves a fuss and now seems to thoroughly enjoy seeing what's going on and who is doing what. I highly doubt he is the only horse in the world that likes to be nosey.

He began pacing a new paddock because he felt isolated from the yard in a new environment after being on a very busy yard, I can't quite see how individual t/o is the cause as he has never paced in the previous 3 years. As expressed numerous times, he is not a seasoned pacer/fence walker. Now he is, for the majority of the time, very settled but can get a bit stressed in an another new environment now and then. Again, highly doubtful he is the only horse that has had issues like this.
		
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So you think he is just fine then, because he happens not to be displaying any other stereotypies and because you haven't observed any stress responses (doesn't mean they weren't there) over the last 3 years he has lived on his own since 2 it hasn't affected him at all.Some horses shout louder than others. Sorry OP I think you might be living in cloud cuckoo land if you really believe that. I hope you decide to do the best by him but suspect you will carry on as is.


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## Gloi (7 August 2015)

While yard owners and horse owners consider long periods of stabling and individual turnout acceptable horse management there are always going to be a lot of screwed up animals.


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## oldie48 (7 August 2015)

Having read your last post, I went back and read your first post and just wondered if we are talking about the same horse! I've seen this happen so often on the forum, OP asks what appears to be a simple question, gets a lot of feedback that questions their horsemanship and concern for the horse, then OP gets defensive and begins to backtrack on how bad the situation is etc. I think that most people genuinely want to do the best by their horses but it's really difficult because there often isn't an easy solution and it's horrible to feel attacked when what you need is help and support. TBH I think your horse would benefit from being in a small herd, I'd worry that he might become too attached to a companion and give you other problems. He's a young horse with his whole life with you ahead of him, surely it's worth taking time to see if you can find somewhere where he can socialise with other horses and enjoy being a horse. I've got a 12 year gelding who was a stallion until he was 6, he's very uncomfortable with other horses being too close to him or coming towards him in a warm up arena which makes competing him difficult. I'm sure it's because he was kept on individual turnout as a youngster. Fortunately he's very easy in all other ways but I can see how another horse with a different personality could become very difficult. Good luck, I hope you find a solution that works for your horse and you!


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## MotherOfChickens (7 August 2015)

OP why are you so anti group turnout out of interest?


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## Maesfen (7 August 2015)

Gloi said:



			While yard owners and horse owners consider long periods of stabling and individual turnout acceptable horse management there are always going to be a lot of screwed up animals. 

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Totally agree with you.

As someone who started riding and helping out in the mid fifties and ever since then by working with them, it never ceases to amaze me (sadly for the horse's sake) how attitudes have changed as the type of owner has changed especially now with the DIY yard being so easily accessible.  
Horse knowledge has gone downhill very badly in most cases because nowadays most people aren't wanting to learn if it involves more then five minutes on a search engine. I'm not tarring everyone with the same brush, far from it but it would be wonderful for horses if people actually learnt how to look after them TO THEIR (the horse's) SATISFACTION and not as an extension as a pet.  They are not a pet and never will be; their needs are simple; fuel, shelter, safety and company of their own type and we should fit into their lives not make them fit into our ideology of how a horse should behave when you have taken him completely from his environment and put him into yours.

You might laugh at us oldies harking back to the good old days but they were very much better for the horse in most cases than a lot are today because of people that haven't learnt to think and feel like a horse trying to keep them without a thought as to how the horse would prefer to be kept.


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## Arzada (7 August 2015)

Illusion100 said:



			I can't quite see how individual t/o is the cause as he has never paced in the previous 3 years. As expressed numerous times, he is not a seasoned pacer/fence walker. Now he is, for the majority of the time, very settled but can get a bit stressed in an another new environment now and then. Again, highly doubtful he is the only horse that has had issues like this.
		
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Whether individual turnout is or isn't the cause of his pacing/fence walking it's something that you have the power to eliminate from your horse's life. I hope that you do,  because horses are herd animals whose needs are met by other horses, You've started with the volunteer Shetland mare, not ideal in height or numbers but a starting point. 

It saddens me that your reference point seems to be how his issues compare with other equine issues, also, let's face it, caused by people. He's your horse and his issues are yours to sort out. He can't do it for himself. You have moved from an opening post where pacing/fence walking was an issue for you to it now apparently not being an issue. You have a starting point at this yard of ensuring equine company. Please grasp it and build on it.


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## Meowy Catkin (7 August 2015)

MOC - IIRC, the OP knew or owned a horse that had a fatal field accident.

I think that this thread might be helpful. The horse in question has had a tough time in his short life. http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/foru...blematic-horse&highlight=learned+helplessness


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## MotherOfChickens (7 August 2015)

Thanks Faracat.


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## ester (7 August 2015)

Lots of people know of lots of freak accidents, I don't think it is reasoning to isolate your horse forever. 

The OP has been posting about the problems she has with this poor horse for some time without really making any fundamental changes. The fact that this horse was stabled for a time to learn to deal with his stress is just .


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## SpringArising (7 August 2015)

Illusion100 said:



			He is very sociable, affectionate, loves a fuss and now seems to thoroughly enjoy seeing what's going on and who is doing what. I highly doubt he is the only horse in the world that likes to be nosey.

He began pacing a new paddock because he felt isolated from the yard in a new environment after being on a very busy yard, I can't quite see how individual t/o is the cause as he has never paced in the previous 3 years. As expressed numerous times, he is not a seasoned pacer/fence walker. Now he is, for the majority of the time, very settled but can get a bit stressed in an another new environment now and then. Again, highly doubtful he is the only horse that has had issues like this.
		
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Why does it matter if he's not the only horse with this issue? If any other horse had this issue we'd be saying the same thing! You must be being purposely obtuse here? 

Do you really think your horse would rather watch people muck out stables in the yard than be having a play with a couple of other horses?

And if you KNOW he's sociable, why is your decision to keep him on his own?


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## MotherOfChickens (7 August 2015)

well that original thread was uncomfortable reading from many points of view tbh. Will be glad that I have the set up I have for mine and remind them of how lucky they are later.


OP I might be wrong but seem to think you're in Ireland? If you aren't and you wanted to try something different with him then I know just the person but they're in Wales. If you're ever interested PM me and I'll give you contact details.


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## paddi22 (7 August 2015)

freak accidents can happen anywhere though. I've had one off all summer and missed the whole season due to an injury he got in the field. But at the end of the day i'd prefer him to be happy outside and risk an injury - instead of being wrapped in cotton wool in a stable (where accidents can still happen).

Group turnout works miracles for horses brains. I've an neurotic exracer that I moved yards four times with as he wouldn't settle, and we couldn't find a routine for him at all that worked (yards were either too crowded, too quiet, unsuitable turnout etc.) In desperation, I ended up throwing him into a massive cheap field, convinced he would kill himself in a herd or get injured; and lo and behold he had an absolute ball, and after a few months became a happy, content stressfree horse who couldn't care less about routine or how far/close fields were to yard.  It was a pain for me as new field meant walking across 30 acres of bogs and ditches, and walking him up a road to get to an arena, but the most important thing was that HE was happy. 


From my experience horses fixate on tiny details when they are unhappy and their brains aren't being challenged enough through interaction, play or work.  A happy horse, who has good social interaction and play in a suitable herd is too busy to be fixated on things. 

Hope you get it sorted.


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## Fun Times (7 August 2015)

I am going to come at this slightly differently and propose that the individual turnout may not be the key issue here. The OP's horse went away to a trainer's earlier in the year to progress his education and bring him back into work after having winter turned away. As far as I am aware, he didn't pace prior to this. He came back from his training to a new yard and then the pacing started a week or two later (I think, althought I may have misunderstood). I know of the trainers that the OP used and I know he will have been worked sympathetically but hard enough to get his brain working.  For various reasons the OP hasn't been able to work the horse much since his return from the trainers, largely because a new saddle is required which hasn't yet arrived. I wonder if maybe the horse is just missing the workload that he had at the trainers and will be happier once OP can crack on with him under saddle. It just seems too coincidental to me that the pacing began once his workload reduced. So I am proposing the alternative diagnosis that OP has a horse with a work ethic, rather than he is desperate for group turnout (although of course the one does not rule out the other being a contributory factor). Shoot me now.....


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## Goldenstar (7 August 2015)

Fun Times said:



			I am going to come at this slightly differently and propose that the individual turnout may not be the key issue here. The OP's horse went away to a trainer's earlier in the year to progress his education and bring him back into work after having winter turned away. As far as I am aware, he didn't pace prior to this. He came back from his training to a new yard and then the pacing started a week or two later (I think, althought I may have misunderstood). I know of the trainers that the OP used and I know he will have been worked sympathetically but hard enough to get his brain working.  For various reasons the OP hasn't been able to work the horse much since his return from the trainers, largely because a new saddle is required which hasn't yet arrived. I wonder if maybe the horse is just missing the workload that he had at the trainers and will be happier once OP can crack on with him under saddle. It just seems too coincidental to me that the pacing began once his workload reduced. So I am proposing the alternative diagnosis that OP has a horse with a work ethic, rather than he is desperate for group turnout (although of course the one does not rule out the other being a contributory factor). Shoot me now.....
		
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No I agree I don't think herd turnout doing nothing will necessarily help this horse become an easy useful animal.
I would get this horse into daily work if it where mine with turnout with out with friends .this horse is at an age where many need exercise and the mental stimulation of training. / hacking to settle them to a useful working life .
I can't understand why having had a difficult horse with a pro for starting you would bring it home and let it veg out I would have kept going even it it meant paying a rider to come in .


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## paddi22 (7 August 2015)

that makes sense too. some horses just need the mental stimulation and are happier working.  If the horse was a at a good yard with constant, firm, sympathetic handling, and rules set up for work. Now its probably at all a loss with all that structure gone.


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## mcnaughty (7 August 2015)

Some horses just cannot copy with individual turnout.  I expect, if this issue started after he returned from training - perhaps they turned him out with another animal?  I cant see the problem.  Leave the pony out in the field with him.


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## MotherOfChickens (7 August 2015)

Fun Times said:



			Shoot me now.....
		
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don't disagree at all but to go from that to also being bored stiff in a field probably exacerbates it. At least if he could play/groom etc some of his equine needs and energy would be being met.


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## springtime1331 (7 August 2015)

From reading the earlier thread as well as this one it seems to me that the horse has been moved around a lot in its short life and suffered a lot of anxiety. I guess with your current yard being nearly a hour away - 2 hours driving a day, that this yard may not be sustainable long term for you however well the horse settles. I don't'the envy your situation one bit - you've invested a lot into getting the horse right, both financially and emotionally. If you can't find another yard closer to home where the horse has a chance of settling and becoming useful and fulfilling for you to enjoy, I'd seriously think about finding it a good home with someone who has the right set up.


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## ester (7 August 2015)

He was rearing, bolting, box walking and field pacing at 8 months old after the vet visit so he was pacing before a long time before he went to the trainers fun times. I think that's why I think carrying on as is now/more professional help probably isn't going to help much 4 years down the line.


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## joulsey (7 August 2015)

Just read the previous thread from Feb 2014. This poor horse has had no downtime what to ever just to be a horse. Just put him in a bl**dy small herd and let him chill for a while. Which was advised a year and a half ago.

I also note this is the horse which you said in another post is not good with strangers? So when you say sociable I guess you mean with other horses? And you?


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## applecart14 (7 August 2015)

Illusion100 said:



			On current yard, no. I have also had bad experiences of this in the past and would hope to avoid it unless there was absolutely no other choice.
		
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My horse has been on individual turnout for about 8 years now and I wouldn't want it any other way.  I don't think its detrimental to them so long as they have company and the rule of 'last horse left to be brought in' is adhered to so I can understand how the OP feels. I think after a long period of time on their own a horse suddenly put with another for company could end up very playful due to the sudden stimulus of another horse, and this could lead to problems, maybe with an unhappy outcome.


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## ester (7 August 2015)

Your chap is much older though applecart, no on his own during the very formative years. Mine is on his own currently as his fieldmate has moved yards, it's a work in progress and he is otherwise happy and settled (and I live there too!)


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## Hetsmum (7 August 2015)

applecart14 said:



			My horse has been on individual turnout for about 8 years now and I wouldn't want it any other way.  I don't think its detrimental to them so long as they have company and the rule of 'last horse left to be brought in' is adhered to so I can understand how the OP feels. I think after a long period of time on their own a horse suddenly put with another for company could end up very playful due to the sudden stimulus of another horse, and this could lead to problems, maybe with an unhappy outcome.
		
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With all due respect Applecart your horse is very much older than the OP's.  I have found older horses can 'sometimes' appreciate a bit of piece and quiet.  A young gelding often needs most stimulation.  Young horses (particularly males) have a 'need' to play that is hardwired.  This diminishes to some extent with age.  I only know of a couple of horses that have been 'happy' alone.  What we perceive as as happy is very far removed from what a horse does. It took 2 years for me to 'partly' undo the damage done to my 2 year old who had been teathered by travellers for 18 months so not allowed to interact with other horses.  He 'played' at least 5/6 hours a day for nearly 2 years with my other horses (who were sick to death of him but very understanding).  He is still very lacking in social skills and finds new horses very distressing.  He is extremely intelligent and needs constant stimulation - horse or human.


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## applecart14 (7 August 2015)

Hetsmum said:



			He 'played' at least 5/6 hours a day for nearly 2 years with my other horses (who were sick to death of him but very understanding).  He is still very lacking in social skills and finds new horses very distressing.  He is extremely intelligent and needs constant stimulation - horse or human.
		
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Hi Hetsmum I appreciate what you are saying with regards to age.  But my point is valid insomuch as it could cause a problem if a horse has been on its own for a while and then reintroduced into a herd or with others. I bet if your horses hadn't been so understanding of your 2 year old they would have given him a good boot for his trouble.  Having lost a horse with a broken leg (most probably casued by a hairline fracture from a kick) and from my own present horse having a significant bone chip (which the vet admitted could have turned out to be catastrophic had he galloped around when I was advised to turn out by same vet following the kick) it is worrying.

I know there is no physical interaction when they are on individual turnout and they like to mutually groom each other but a lot of yards cater for individual turnout and on some yards (including mine) this is all they do. For seven years my horse was able to touch others over the fence and often did mutually groom his friend (my best friends horse) in the next paddock.  We did consider putting them together but I felt the risk was too great of Bailey being too playful and the risk was to much.

If I had another horse (God forbid) I would bite the bullet and turn out with others if I was at a yard that offered group turnout, but I would never consider my Bailey going out with anything other than a shetland, or unshod small pony as he is too precious to me.


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## Hetsmum (7 August 2015)

applecart14 said:



			Hi Hetsmum I appreciate what you are saying with regards to age.  But my point is valid insomuch as it could cause a problem if a horse has been on its own for a while and then reintroduced into a herd or with others. I bet if your horses hadn't been so understanding of your 2 year old they would have given him a good boot for his trouble.  Having lost a horse with a broken leg (most probably casued by a hairline fracture from a kick) and from my own present horse having a significant bone chip (which the vet admitted could have turned out to be catastrophic had he galloped around when I was advised to turn out by same vet following the kick) it is worrying.

I know there is no physical interaction when they are on individual turnout and they like to mutually groom each other but a lot of yards cater for individual turnout and on some yards (including mine) this is all they do. For seven years my horse was able to touch others over the fence and often did mutually groom his friend (my best friends horse) in the next paddock.  We did consider putting them together but I felt the risk was too great of Bailey being too playful and the risk was to much.

If I had another horse (God forbid) I would bite the bullet and turn out with others if I was at a yard that offered group turnout, but I would never consider my Bailey going out with anything other than a shetland, or unshod small pony as he is too precious to me.
		
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I understand where you are coming from and unfortunately now OP is trying to 'shut the stable door after the horse is bolted' so to speak.  I have also had one of mine have a hairline fracture to a leg and he was only turned out with his best mate.  I lost him 6 weeks ago to colic in the field so s**t happens anyway   I know I am very lucky in so much as I only have my own horses turned out together so there is very little in the way of 'new introductions'.  I would probably be not so keen to be on a Livery yard with a herd turnout with lots of new horses constantly introduced.  However I still stand by my point and if at some point OP does not 'bite the bullet' she will end up with more and more problems.  It won't go away with a horse like this and I fully expect posts in the future of 'my horse had ulcers'.  I honesty would get a youngish companion on loan from a rescue and turn them out together.
ps my lads did give the 2 year old a good boot for his trouble from time to time but he survived.  Unless particularly nasty (or unlucky) horses generally fire warning shots from the back end.  Especially when they have a 2 year old attached by his teeth to the tail flap of their turnout rugs who they can't detach no matter how much they try  

pps Had I not bitten the bullet when I did I would have ended up with an unhandleable (is that a word?) horse.  He had already taken to rearing whenever he was handled and constantly biting.  All disappeared now.........


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## Doublethyme (7 August 2015)

I think it is appalling to keep a horse from the age of 2 on individual turnout and I don't give a damn about history of the op being traumatised by field accident. 

Suck it up, put your young horse in a more suitable environment or get out of horses. 

I'm not usually so tactless but this has made my blood boil.   Oh and I 100% know from personal experience the trauma of loss through field accidents but horses need company, young horses especially and if you can't get past your history you need to let the horse go.


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## 9tails (7 August 2015)

Illusion100 said:



			Shetland was being a kids pony this morning so mine was on his own but was fine. Shortly after the Shetland got turned out with him he started pacing, after a while they took the Shetland out and he stopped, so having a companion hasn't worked.
		
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Give it time and preferably a better companion, but if this is the only option then take it.  Mine got a new companion recently though she's already in with others, she's prone to fence walking so off she went because of the new scenario and she did it for 36 hours solid.  Once she'd worn herself out she settled down and that was it.


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## twiggy2 (7 August 2015)

I am sorry but the whole 'my horse is too precious to me..' thing just does not sit well with me, my animals are so precious to me that I like to think I give them the best life I can for them, my mare is not worried about individual turn out as long as she can see others and due to missing out on socialisation before I had her she does not groom other horses or really interact but she still seems more settled and secure when there are others about. My lurcher was the closest an animal has ever been to my heart and if I had kept her on lead I would possibly had her for another few years but she was so precious to me that I allowed her to run for her last 2.5 years knowing that it would mean that I was very likely to lose her sooner, but also knowing without free running she would not 'live' for that time but simply exist


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (7 August 2015)

havent read the entire thread, but you cant generalise that all horses must have company in the field and thats that.

ours have all been on individual turnout for years and since that its been much easier to manage them. 99% of horses that compete are on individual turnout and clearly not ruined by it!

its lovely to see them running in a herd but not practical for most.

as long as they have horses close by and some form of social contact on the yard, it really isnt the end of the world for them not to have a field mate.

my stallion has been separated since before his 3rd birthday-he plays too hard to go out with the old boy, and Fig is already terrified of large horses so wouldnt welcome Goof's rough and tumble.

Bruce needs no grass and Fig needs loads so they are split too as even muzzled long dairy grass is too much for Bruce.

they are only a fence line away. The only one that cant touch over the fence is Goof, and he is allowed mutual grooming time over the stable door.

they are content easy going horses..............i think some people are getting rather worked up over this!

i have no solution to OP issue, we have a fence walker (Fig) but hes ok out in the day as long as he comes in at night. he wears a track in his fields but its our land so we just suck it up and re seed in spring. He fence walks if its hot, cold, windy,still, warm, dull, muggy,raining or snowing! he does it if all 4 are out, if hes the only one out, and even when he did have company. he does it on fresh grass, old grass, even if bucket feed in field. Theres no stress or panic in his face when he does it.

he eats a bit, walks a bit, eats a bit, sleeps a bit, walks a bit. 

hes a loving cuddly chilled out boy, he just has this little quirk. But i know for a face introducing a boisterous young field companion wouldnt help.

no easy solution esp if the YO keeps going on about the track.


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## SpringArising (7 August 2015)

twiggy2 said:



			I am sorry but the whole 'my horse is too precious to me..' thing just does not sit well with me
		
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So agree. 

If you are that way inclined then get yourself a hamster.

I really do feel that it's a welfare issue to keep horses alone for long periods of time, ESPECIALLY when they are clearly showing signs of stress. 

To not allow a horse its basic right to have a companion is just so cruel. Scratching each other over a stable door for ten mins - gee, great. What a lucky horse.

Horses will find a way of injuring themselves whether they're with others or not. I'd rather have a horse for three years and have to put it down from a field accident, but know he spent his days content and playfully, than to have one for ten years who's been stuck on it's own and miserable.


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## ester (7 August 2015)

I do think if the OP can't cope with the horse in front of her she should consider selling him. He is different to Fig in that historically it doesn't seem to be his only issue/he is also reported as difficult to handle etc etc.

(It is the old YO who is going no about the track)

I think a consistent group a fence line away is doable, and know plenty that are ok on individual turnout but the OPs horse seems to have a whole host of associated issues, has never really settled etc. My own lad is on his own atm- as his fieldmate has left the yard, he seems ok with it but it won't be long term and he is 22 and very settled there anyway.


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## honetpot (7 August 2015)

paddi22 said:



			if he was mine i'd turn him away in a field with other gelding to play with for a long time.  No livery and being brought in and out, just out 24/7 to figure himself out. I've a yearling and I could never imagine how she would have coped on individual turnout, it is so unnatural and the results are what you are struggling with now.  Risk of injury isn't a reason of keeping a horse isolated, they need to be a horse. If it was mine i'd toss it into the biggest, most stimulating field I could find, and leave it in peace for a while.  It sounds like a very unhappy difficult horse. You have tried your best and I don't think finding the right routine is the answer, i think the horse just needs to be left alone to be a horse.
		
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 I agree with this.
 I bought a three year old who was shown as colt, and came from the most luxurious home. He was lovely to handle and apart from the odd head toss you would have known he was not gelded. The downside he had been kept on padded solitary confinement, in a box 23 out of 24 hrs, the hour he was out he was in a school on his own.
  I am fortunate I have my own land so I turned him out with an old gelding until he was gelded, not too bad, gelding is a pig so I thought would soon sort him out, but that wasn't a problem. 
  After gelding he was turned out in a small group, he basically could not cope, his way of coping was shutting down and standing, which although it doesn't cut up the ground it stopped him from eating and he rapidly lost weight. The only place he felt safe was in a stable, where he munched his hay and feed, he poos in one corner so its like keeping a rabbit. After nearly three years he is about normal, can hold his own with one or two, outwardly appears normal but in a larger group does not do well. I have watched in the paddock for hours and being stressed stops him from eating, he may not be cribbing, or field walking but he is still stressed, it just not so obvious.
  You horse has started to show signs of stress, but it doesn't mean he wasn't stressed before he just had not found a physical way to release it. He developed a way to cope with it before, and I think the Shetland is a bit of a red herring, he did not have long enough to bond, so perhaps he was just a distraction.
  You talk about training him to ride, but you also have to train him for life, and think how will I help solve this not for this week but for as long as he lives and living in isolation is not life for any animal. I have had horses I have bought with separation anxiety , and it takes planning and perpetration every time you need to do something with them, not everyone's ideal horse. Not everyone can assure  an animal a home for life, so if he ends up being sold it will go against him unless he is exceptional. 
  He needs to go out in a small established herd and become a horse, call it his gap year, he will come hopefully better to cope with life and be a much more manageable.


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## atlantis (7 August 2015)

honetpot said:



			You horse has started to show signs of stress, but it doesn't mean he wasn't stressed before he just had not found a physical way to release it. He developed a way to cope with it before, and I think the Shetland is a bit of a red herring, he did not have long enough to bond, so perhaps he was just a distraction.
  You talk about training him to ride, but you also have to train him for life, and think how will I help solve this not for this week but for as long as he lives and living in isolation is not life for any animal. I have had horses I have bought with separation anxiety , and it takes planning and perpetration every time you need to do something with them, not everyone's ideal horse. Not everyone can assure  an animal a home for life, so if he ends up being sold it will go against him unless he is exceptional. 
  He needs to go out in a small established herd and become a horse, call it his gap year, he will come hopefully better to cope with life and be a much more manageable.
		
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Very sensible post. There are many sensible posts on this thread and I hope for her horses sake that she takes note. I hate individual turnout but as a single horse owner with a limited number of options on where to keep that horse it's difficult. However if this were my horse I would be doing everything in my power to find him somewhere to be turned away for a year to grow up and become a horse. 

I have owned a unsocialised horse. He was a nightmare to manage to begin with and took years to settle down.


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## twiggy2 (7 August 2015)

Prince33Sp4rkle said:



			99% of horses that compete are on individual turnout and clearly not ruined by it!
		
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Can I ask where this figure comes from?
Because it is not my experience on either point


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## paddi22 (7 August 2015)

people overestimate the danger to a horse who is turned out with a herd for the first time. A lot of people make it sound like the horse will either be kicked to death by the herd or break a leg immediately.  There's no reason the situation can't be managed by electric fencing off an area and doing introductions gradually. 

I had an emergency situation due to a family illness, where i literally had to throw my socially unskilled exracer into a massive herd. He got a few bites and torn rugs while he learned the ropes, but the herd seemed to understand he had no social skills and treated him like a small stupid child really. All he wanted to do was play for hours and most generally went along with it.


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## Illusion100 (9 August 2015)

I think some posters have replied before reading my comments after my OP, tut tut, lazy!  

So to reiterate, he is on a livery package that involves others handling him 5 days a week. He has not caused any issue. He is led in a head collar and rope (no chain). He hasn't bolted in 3 years. He reared once being led about 2 years ago in a very excitable situation. He is not the same horse as he was after the surgery at 8 months old yet he is still being judged as such by people who have never seen him in the flesh.

Whatever he was doing intermittently in the past couple of weeks at this new yard, he's not doing it now as far as I can see. I have not seen him pace at new yard, there are no tracks and every time I go there he's quietly grazing away. The YO has let me know that he has been unsettled in field but not surprising as it is all new to him, it was described as pacing and as at the recent yard the pacing was horrendous I was obviously concerned and looking for advice. 

Individual t/o isn't the issue, as much as many of you like to presume it is. As he has now settled very well in such a short space of time (I'm sure most advise a few weeks isn't a long time to have settled at a new yard, or at least that's I've read on other threads, so just give the horse time (wonder why only 1 poster has mentioned this on my thread, odd.)), it certainly points to the fact that he didn't like feeling so isolated from the recent yard activities after being at the Trainers busy yard.

When my horse was returned to me, the Trainer advised me to give him a month off. Now he much happier at this new yard, he's started back to work. He was excellent again this evening on lunge. Looking at him now, I can't see he's going to be a bother to get on when saddle arrives.

However no doubt should he ever have a fright from cyclist or have a naughty day, it will be because he's on individual t/o.


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## Arzada (9 August 2015)

It would be nice if you could be pleasant to people who have taken time and trouble to consider your posts and reply given that you were 'obviously concerned and looking for advice'. No one has been nasty to you on this thread. People have tried to help. Fine  - you don't agree with the advice but rather than spend time picking apart and criticising responses how about saying thank you.


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## SpringArising (9 August 2015)

You asked for help but aren't willing to swallow your own pride and admit that you are the issue here.

If everything is so fine and dandy why did you bother writing a hardback novel of an OP asking for help on stopping your horse from pacing and stressing out? 

How miraculous that he's now suddenly stopped. 

I feel so sorry for your horse, I really do.


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## Illusion100 (9 August 2015)

Arzada said:



			It would be nice if you could be pleasant to people who have taken time and trouble to consider your posts and reply given that you were 'obviously concerned and looking for advice'. No one has been nasty to you on this thread. People have tried to help. Fine  - you don't agree with the advice but rather than spend time picking apart and criticising responses how about saying thank you.
		
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Arzada, I gave a general reply to my own thread.

I doubt you could find posts where I have not been pleasant and supportive to others with their own difficulties.


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## Illusion100 (9 August 2015)

SpringArising said:



			You asked for help but aren't willing to swallow your own pride and admit that you are the issue here.

If everything is so fine and dandy why did you bother writing a hardback novel of an OP asking for help on stopping your horse from pacing and stressing out? 

How miraculous that he's now suddenly stopped. 

I feel so sorry for your horse, I really do.
		
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It's a relief to know you have such emotions as I doubted you did.


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## pixie (9 August 2015)

Time waster


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## bouncing_ball (9 August 2015)

Poor illusion 100, some not very nice bullies on this thread. Wish you lots of luck with your horse who you clearly care deeply about.


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## ester (9 August 2015)

I'm still amazed that anyone can consider keeping a 2 yo on it's own a good idea. 

Obviously though despite everyone's efforts to advise and make suggestions on this thread and several before this you know best OP, your horse isn't really showing any signs of stress and will be hunkydory from here on in.


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## Illusion100 (10 August 2015)

bouncing_ball said:



			Poor illusion 100, some not very nice bullies on this thread. Wish you lots of luck with your horse who you clearly care deeply about.
		
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Thank you. Every decision I've made with this horse has not been done without careful thought and Professional advice from those that know him personally. Sometimes teething issues occur and I'd rather be pro-active about it. 

Anyway, he will have been at this new yard 3 weeks tomorrow and although I've personally not seen him pacing at this new yard although the YO informed me he was doing it sporadically, it appears to have ceased over the last few days from what they or I have noticed. I have been to sort him Thurs, Sat and today. I've not seen any pacing or other indications that he is unhappy. He has that lovely liquid look back in his eye again that he has when he is very chilled. 

Thanks again for caring. Much appreciated.

The cracks in his feet should hopefully be gone by the next farriery session (possibly 2 sessions) and he is looking much more 'rounded' again in his musculature after developing a bit of a banana shape from the pacing at the last yard. So yes, I agree with Ester, he's not showing any signs of stress and should be hunkydory from here on in.


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## Achinghips (10 August 2015)

bouncing_ball said:



			Poor illusion 100, some not very nice bullies on this thread. Wish you lots of luck with your horse who you clearly care deeply about.
		
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This.  Well done for taking action and moving yard.


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## Goldenstar (10 August 2015)

Really glad he's settled .
It's not easy dealing with difficult horses when you can't be in control of the enviroment like you can on your own yard.
Please be careful when you get back on him I used to start a lot of horses and almost without fail the ones that came back with after problems where the ones that were not kept going for a while after they went home .
Do not get without going back to basics for a while , leaning across etc it should give you clues about how he will be .
Its always worth going back over the small stuff to avoid potential issues.
I have just had a 7 yo ID let down with out riding for the first time since he arrived as a rather tense rushed recently started five year old he's hunted one and half seasons and will go through a mini starting before I get on him it sounds silly and is very probably unecessary but it's much much better to do this than perhaps have a 'nasty'.


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (10 August 2015)

its not ideal to keep youngsters in individual turnout no, but equally i dont personally consider it the worst sin either(when you see horses either out in burning sun with no shade, or standing in a somme of poo and mud in the name of 24/7 turnout being best etc).

if we got a 2yo tomorrow, unless it was very fat and very quiet(and thus could go out with Bruce) it would be in individual turnout as we would have no other option. we would make sure he had social contact at other times but i find some of the responses on this thread rather hysterical tbh.

i agree with GS about a careful and thorough re-starting


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## ester (10 August 2015)

Equally it is possible to turn out in groups and not have somme-like conditions and provide shade .

I guess I see that I'd want my horses to be as chilled and happy as possible with all of their needs met, and that it should lead on to better performance too.


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (10 August 2015)

yes definately i more meant some people have odd double standards (not all, but some)...........its a heinous crime to turn a 2yo out alone, but then on the "how does your field look" pics in dec/jan, some of those make my head explode at what people consider acceptable for a horse to stand in 24/7.

we all(mostly) do the best with what we have and i think its clear the OP hasnt quite got to the bottom of the issue, but is getting there slowly.

its easy to say that settled herd turnout is the best for all horses, but actually add in to the equation everything we expect them to do work wise and for some its not the best thing at all.


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## ester (10 August 2015)

Genuine query PS, in what way does work change whether settled herd turnout is best? Along the lines of me bringing Frank in before a show for a good sleep or something I've missed?


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (10 August 2015)

because from a purely practical note,if you arent riding or ride rarely and dont compete, if your horse gets a silly kick or a bite under the saddle and needs 2 weeks off its far less of an issue than if your competition horse does.

if your none ridden or rarely ridden horse spends all day racing round like a **** each time a horse jogs a bit, and runs its self up lean its not the end of the world, if your competition horse is running off weight as fast as you can feed it, its never going to perform at its best.

no matter how settled the herd, horses are horses and stupid scrapes and knocks and 24hours of idiocy can have a big impact.

i pour hundreds if not nearly a thousand a month in to this when competing, so if individual turnout saves me wasted entries and pointless vets bills, individual turnout it is.


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## eggs (10 August 2015)

I hear what Prince33Sp4rkle is saying although my competition horses (advanced medium dressage and BE100) are all turned out in two herds (1 mares and 1 geldings) although I keep my horses at home so there is not a constant change of field companions.  Yes, I have lost out of competitions (including Regionals) and lost entry money after injury in the field but I have also lost out on competition (Badminton grass roots) following an injury in the stable.


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## applecart14 (10 August 2015)

There is an interesting article in one of the popular horsey magazines this month about keeping horses on their own.

I understand about young horses and being kept on their own isn't ideal but a lot of 'professional type yards' (and I use that term loosely) cater only for individual turnout. I am on one such yard and know of a few others nearby that only cater for this set up.

I don't think any of the horses suffer for this, admittedly ours can't interact over the fence during part of the year as the fence is electric fence, but sometimes when in the other paddock which is post and rail they can interact with each other but I have yet to see this.

I guess its each to their own and up to the OP how she keeps her horse.

I think some of the comments on this post are really unnessecary and very bully boy.  'I feel really sorry for your horse' is a terrible statement to make to someone for example and very upsetting to that individual.  There is too much bullying on this forum usually the same people, time and time again. Its about time the administrators took notice to stop this from continually occuring. Hiding behind a user name is easy for some it seems.

PS one day I will learn to spell unnesscary


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## ester (10 August 2015)

never eat cake eat salmon sandwiches and remain young 

with an un in front


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (10 August 2015)

i would like to add that i HAVE previously had the horses as a herd and can hand on heart say we have suffered barely any injuries requiring time off,sustained in the field since..... one bruised sole and thats it.......in the last 5 years(since we completely separated every horse).

we didnt have a bad record prior to that, but a lot more scrapes,nicks,bruises etc just needing 2/3 days off, so silly niggles really but niggles you can do without.


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## Goldenstar (10 August 2015)

While I seek to avoid individual turnout I always kept horses preparing for three days events on their own  to reduce the risk of injury and because the very fit are often not the best turned out with the not so fit .
I have also had two horses who where not to trusted on turnout, they where aggressive and it was not worth the risk .
How you turnout defiantly effected performance in some horses .
It's an old nags mans trick to turn out a naughty horse alone in a small paddock and work it hard and for some horses it's a way through an issue .
Some lazy horses can be better kept in a individual paddock and some are worse .
My new horse is super laid back when kept in a group it might a bit much if you where competing him at advanced .
For some pairs are best , three is I think the hardest number to settle in a group . 
However it would never be acceptable for me to keep a young horse alone they need the exercise and mental stimulation they get from company .
I also totally understand what pros turnout valuable horses they ride for owners alone and why DIY yard owners do it too as it must just be much much easier .


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## applecart14 (10 August 2015)

ester said:



			never eat cake eat salmon sandwiches and remain young 

with an un in front 

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Ha, thank you Ester!  It drives me mental every time I forget!


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## paddi22 (10 August 2015)

This isn't criticising anyones choices,  as most people make the best (or sometimes only) choices they can. I've kept horses for years on yards with both individual, and group, turnouts. They were fine on individual, but hand on heart they look 100 times happier when you see them playing and messing around and having fun with each other in a group.  

For me the risk of injury doesn't justify isolating a horse, i've seen horses off for months because they backed off  a horsebox ramp awkwardly.  

I know if i was a horse which option I would want.


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## applecart14 (10 August 2015)

Goldenstar said:



			It's an old nags mans trick to turn out a naughty horse alone in a small paddock and work it hard and for some horses it's a way through an issue .
Some lazy horses can be better kept in a individual paddock and some are worse .

.
		
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Out of interest how does the above work?  Not being argumentative just very curious and a bit confused.


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## Red-1 (10 August 2015)

My horse is kept individually, although we have always sad that if he were stressed by this then we would have a companion. Other horses here have been fine too, one particular one was not, we had him a companion Shetland within 24 hours after him arriving. 

One thing though, I would have loved a baby horse (yearling or so), but really believe that babies need to be in a group. I think horses can manage much better on their own once they have a "working" relationship with a human being. The being asked to comply, working out puzzles, physical contact, and physical work, I believe they all go some way to compensate for the loss of horse buddies.

So, much as I would love a baby horse, I don't want a whole group of them, so I have to stay with adults only. For me really that would be 5 yrs plus, maybe a 4yo at a push.


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## Hetsmum (10 August 2015)

applecart14 said:



			Out of interest how does the above work?  Not being argumentative just very curious and a bit confused.
		
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Learned Helplessness


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## Goldenstar (10 August 2015)

The thought behind the single turnout on a bare paddock for naughty horses was that it concentrates their minds on people and what people want from the horse and the horse seeks relationship with the person because you have removed their horse friends and keeping them on short rations gives them less energy for bad behaviour .
In my youth I knew  a real old fashioned nags man he had a small paddock a little away from the yard high hedges all round a naughty horse went in there and was worked from there . He was very very good at turning round naughty horses .i have always remembered this and have used it myself at times when I have felt the need although they can always see others on my yard .
On the lazy thing I thinks just some horses are perked up by group turnout and for some it has completely the opposite effect .
Until Fatty is stabled at night he's much more perky when you work out of a field where he's on his own .


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## PolarSkye (10 August 2015)

Prince33Sp4rkle said:



			yes definately i more meant some people have odd double standards (not all, but some)...........its a heinous crime to turn a 2yo out alone, but then on the "how does your field look" pics in dec/jan, some of those make my head explode at what people consider acceptable for a horse to stand in 24/7.

we all(mostly) do the best with what we have and i think its clear the OP hasnt quite got to the bottom of the issue, but is getting there slowly.

its easy to say that settled herd turnout is the best for all horses, but actually add in to the equation everything we expect them to do work wise and for some its not the best thing at all.
		
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Well, quite - it's common sense really.  Blanket statements and horses just don't mix.  End of.  My own horse busts those generalizations all the time and every day - and so do everyone else's - why?  Because they're individuals.  Yes, there are standards of care we must adhere to - basic principles - access to clean water at all times, adequate feed and forage, appropriate exercise and turnout and proper socialization - and, yes, the "ideal" is to have horses in large herd groups browsing on hedgerows and grazing a wonderful tapestry of herbs and grass . . . but the reality is that the "ideal" isn't always practical (or even preferable) for some horses and some owners. 

Know what?  Yes, Kali is now retired . . . but he is still stabled for part of the day/night and come winter he will be clipped.  He has an impressive wardrobe of rugs, will always have access to ad lib forage (grazing or hay/haylage), shelter in the field and a stable to sleep in at night . . . he HATES the winter weather, stresses and charges about when it's wet and windy (increasing the risk of further injury to his off fore suspensory) and (yes this is selfish) I have no interest in having him ruin either my clothes or his when he starts moulting . . . he will be sufficiently warm and dry - job done.  Is it how everyone would manage a retired, older horse?  Nope.  Is it how I will manage MY horse?  Yep.  I'm not right, but I'm not wrong either - and that's my point.  

Herd turnout is undoubtedly wonderful for many horses - I have several friends who keep theirs (and others - on livery) in large-ish herds and they are all amazingly happy and healthy . . . but it isn't necessarily for everyone.  

Another (small) example - when Pops was in full work we tried both turning him out 24/7 and just at night in during the summer months - neither worked - he was far too tired to do any meaningful work so any schooling was counterproductive.  Now that he is retired, he has transitioned successfully to being out at night and having a snooze/rest in his stable during the day . . . what didn't work then works now.  I manage the horse I have now . . . 

P


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## SO1 (10 August 2015)

I am glad your horse is starting to settle - I presume his paddock has some shade/shelter as if not it maybe he gets uncomfortable if there are a lot of flies around or if it is very hot/wet/windy and there is no shelter from the elements and causes him to pace. I know this is difficult to find out but does he only do it if people are around {e.g is he trying to get someone's attention or does he still do it if he can't see or sense anyone is about?}

I think nearly all horses would be prefer to be turned out with a friend or friends if given the chance. If the Shetland is available as a companion for him I would take up that option if I were you as long your horse is not aggressive towards the Shetland it would I am sure be nicer for him to have the option of a friend in the field if possible.

However I appreciate that there may be some cases where a suitable friend/friends are not available or the horse is has a history of being so aggressive that it is too risky to try out companions in case they get injured, so the horse may end up on individual turnout. 

My pony had to be on individual turnout for a few months after being on box rest while he was recovering from an injury broken splint bone due to being kicked by another horse - vet did not want him on group turnout until he was cantering and fit under saddle. Even though he had a kick injury that resulted in 10 weeks box rest and a total of 7 months till he was fit enough to go out in a group again, it has not put me off group turnout as I think he is happier to be with friends than on his own.

I think if your horse settles at this yard then even though it is not perfect for you because of the distance it might be worth staying for a while for your horse's sake as if he is highly strung it might be hard to find another more suitable place nearer to you.


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## Illusion100 (11 August 2015)

Hi all. Thought I would give an update. 

I haven't been to see him since my last reply but daily evening reports say YO has seen no pacing! The Shetland was removed (I think last Fri) due to Lami concerns so he has been in the paddock on his own but with company in next paddocks. Every time I've been since last Thurs/over weekend, he's just had his head down grazing when out. I saw YO in person Sunday and they said that for the last few days they have not noticed him do anything other than eat either. I'm so relieved!

I am still in no rush to get on him (even though I'm desperate too! ) until I know he's completely happy about everything. He was been Pro backed Nov last year and again this early Summer. I have now started the process again and it will go at his pace, if I think he needs more experienced hands, he will go back to Trainer again to make sure things go just right. My poor horse.

Ever since the awful experience he had at 8 months old due to a vet op, yes, there have been many difficulties. Most people would have passed this horse from pillar to post just making him worse. Many would have put a bullet in him a few years ago and he'd most likely have passed through a digestive system somewhere. Instead I've invested years of time and a heck of a lot of money. Again my poor horse.

I have never previously expressed something like this but for those few who go out of their way to be deliberately offensive, judgemental and patronising, do me a favour and go *fill in blank*

Thanks for everyone else giving more balanced, though out opinions and experiences that are actually helpful and offer support. It is so very much appreciated and just what I needed. Thanks again.


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## Illusion100 (11 August 2015)

applecart14 said:



			I think some of the comments on this post are really unnessecary and very bully boy.  'I feel really sorry for your horse' is a terrible statement to make to someone for example and very upsetting to that individual.  There is too much bullying on this forum usually the same people, time and time again. Its about time the administrators took notice to stop this from continually occuring. Hiding behind a user name is easy for some it seems.
		
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I find the same. Often I read a thread and while going through the comments I think 'bet I know who that was posted by', yep, same ol' same ol'. Not the same member every time obviously but each is easily recognisable by their style of bullying/usual fashion of response.

I am unaware of the ins and outs of what Admin do on this Forum but it does certainly appear they are reactive to bullying rather than proactive. 

One day, the forum bullies will have a not so easy time of things and look for support and advice on a thread they have started. I for one, will try to help them as best as I can, as life can be hard sometimes and we all just need some support.


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## pixie (12 August 2015)

Oh FFS, people ARE trying to support you.  There are a lot of experienced people on this forum.  You have been given a lot of advice, but are choosing to ignore anything that you don't agree with.  Fine, its your horse, whatever.  People are just exasperated with your head in the sand attitude.  Its hardly bullying.


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## luckyoldme (12 August 2015)

pixie said:



			Oh FFS, people ARE trying to support you.  There are a lot of experienced people on this forum.  You have been given a lot of advice, but are choosing to ignore anything that you don't agree with.  Fine, its your horse, whatever.  People are just exasperated with your head in the sand attitude.  Its hardly bullying.
		
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agreed,post on here ask for advice about a young horse stood on its own and fence walking most people are going to say the same thing...its fairly obvious. If stating the obvious makes me a bully then go ahead and be a victim.


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## ester (12 August 2015)

Having posted on the OPs previous threads it is difficult for people to read lots of advice having been given, find the OP does something completely different against the vast majority of the advice and then posts again, sometimes several times over, describing similar problems. There are only so many times people feel they can do that cycle, particularly when you yourself are describing a 5 yo horse that has had issues since he was 8 months old - suggesting that what you have tried so far hasn't really been that successful despite all your efforts and money spent and perhaps a more fundamental difference/change would help/be worth trying. 

Re. the forum, no it isn't actively moderated, which for most they like hence they are here. Admin are for the most part reactive and only intervene if issues are reported to them. This is well known I am surprised if you expected anything else OP. Though I do think some people have some rather odd definitions of bullying, and fwiw witch hunts and cliques just because a lot of people happen to agree with eachother.


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## Ladyinred (12 August 2015)

pixie said:



			Oh FFS, people ARE trying to support you.  There are a lot of experienced people on this forum.  You have been given a lot of advice, but are choosing to ignore anything that you don't agree with.  Fine, its your horse, whatever.  People are just exasperated with your head in the sand attitude.  Its hardly bullying.
		
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I think comments such as "Your poor horse" and "go buy a hamster" probably fall into the bullying category rather than the helpful advice one.

I totally and completely agree and understand that herd turnout, or , at the very least a companion, are vital to 99'9% of horses. But there is always the .1% who hasn't read the rule book and needs to be on his own, either because he prefers it, or he bullies other horses, or he simply fails at the usually hard-wired interaction with the rest of his species and then he is bullied.

 I suspect I know which of these fits the OPs horse, and why, but I don't intend to offer my opinion here and give the boss ewe and the sheep followers the opportunity to start on me. Some of you need to do some serious thinking about how you treat others.. I would bet you are never so aggressive in real life so stop hiding behind user names and bullying for the sake of it.

Wanders off, wondering how many of the bullies responded to the Club House 'Do you find it hard to make friends' thread......


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## ester (12 August 2015)

Fwiw I also think our horses manage to cause us enough worry and stress as it is and worry that the OP is generating more of this/would generate less of it if a complete care overhaul was at least tried, especially as I know she has previously said she is not always that well to cope with him if he is on one. 

Just trying to clarify here but I don't think the OP has said if there was a reason for his segregation at 2, other than a yard move? Perhaps OP could englighten?



Illusion100 said:



			From 5 months old to 2.5 yrs old he had a herd environment. Op done at 8 months. 36 hrs at vets, 2 weeks pen rest then back out. At 2yrs 7 months old, due to unforeseen factors at previous farm he was moved to livery yard. He has since been out full time until last July when he had 3 weeks at Pro Trainers yard as he would not settle in field, since then full time turn out until last w'end.

Foaled indoors but out with herd asap until weaned at 5 months.
		
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## Meowy Catkin (12 August 2015)

Illusion100's threads are actually very difficult for me to read. This is not because I am a sheep or in a clique, but because I also own a hot, sharp, easily stressed young horse who is the same age as Illusion's horse and who was also roughly treated by a Vet as a foal. This one incident of rough treatment has caused lasting issues for my boy.

Any advice and thoughts that I have given on previous threads about this horse have been carefully thought out. I know that her horse isn't a carbon copy of mine, but maybe having him does help me see the issues of having such a horse? I know that I haven't said much on this thread, but I haven't actually known what to say as her approach is so different to mine. I have tried to remember pertinent information and explain or link it, so that others can see more of the horse's background which could possibly help them help the OP. If I wrote anything incorrect, Illusion could easily post a correction on this thread.

Anyway, I'm going to step away from these threads about this horse. I have no other ideas or thoughts to offer.


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## Illusion100 (13 August 2015)

They were all already in by the time I got there this evening and he was just munching away in his stable. YO was there and said he's not paced for around a week now and is that now settled even her non-horsey OH can catch him and bring him in if needs be. She really likes having him and he hasn't caused her or anyone else any issues.

So I'm extremely confident this pacing issue can now be crossed off the list. I am hugely relieved about it.

He is no longer the difficult horse he once was, he is certainly unrecognisable now compared to then. It's taken a lot of time, patience and money over the years but he's worth it. Trainer has a soft spot for him, he always gets complimented by others and it made me smile when my OH came with me tonight and I overheard YO telling him that my lad was actually the most mannerly to handle on the yard. *Cue smug owner smile while grooming horse*

Faracat, I'm sorry your boy suffered damage from rough treatment at Vets too. It's horrendous, I still feel so guilty/angry about it  Sometimes I'm at a loss to offer ideas and thoughts to others as well, so I just offer support. 

Ester, yes, I have explained why several times in the past. However I feel it is pointless clarifying the reasons again.

Ladyinred 

For posters who clearly have genuine concerns about my horse, please PM and I would be happy for you come and visit him in the flesh. I have nothing to hide.


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## ester (13 August 2015)

That's a shame, I have obviously read your threads and can't for the life of me remember!


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