# Bicester Hunt Kill Fox



## Miss_Millie (13 October 2021)

Yesterday Bicester Hunt were filmed actively hunting a fox which was then killed by the hounds in thick undergrowth. The body of the fox was eventually taken from the hounds by a sab. The hunt were reportedly trespassing and the land owner was furious.

I will not share the source video because it shows the fox being ripped apart alive by the hounds and is horribly graphic.

I can't think of any other law which a group of people continuously get away with breaking, with seemingly no repercussions. If they were stealing bikes, mugging people or setting fire to buildings, they would all be in jail by now. The fact that they so openly break the law without fear, shows that they feel confident they have nothing to worry about.

Contrastingly, peacefully holding up a sign of protest in the UK, is now apparently a criminal offence that warrants being taken away in a riot van.


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## OldNag (13 October 2021)

I looked but couldn't see this reported anywhere.. is there a link to any news report please?


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## Tiddlypom (13 October 2021)

A graphic 5 minute video been posted on FB by West Midlands Hunt Saboteurs. Also now posted on the hound being shot thread.



Spoiler



https://fb.watch/8CBsBazRyd/


 Warning, graphic content.

As yet I do not know of a news report on it.


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## PurBee (13 October 2021)

Seems glos/oxfordshire region still actively hunt foxes. I was there in 2018 having a cup of tea outside admiring the peaceful countryside view at a friends rural place, when suddenly an almighty rucus developed like a hurricane of sound, hounds barking, horns blowing in the fields below. I presumed trail hunting was taking place until i saw the fox racing towards my lane and scamper over a stone wall with hounds in tow.

The audacity of the hunts, with video evidence, to continue breaking the law, just baffles me. ALL trail hunting will be banned eventually, and ruin it for those legally hunting, if they continue to provide indisputable video evidence that they continue to break the law.


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## Miss_Millie (13 October 2021)

Tiddlypom said:



			A graphic 5 minute video been posted on FB by West Midlands Hunt Saboteurs. Also now posted on the hound being shot thread.



Spoiler



https://fb.watch/8CBsBazRyd/


 Warning, graphic content.

As yet I do not know of a news report on it.
		
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Thanks for sharing the link, I was hesitant to share it as it is quite a distressing video to watch.


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## shortstuff99 (13 October 2021)

I wonder how pleased the farmer is with the dogs and hunt running right through his fields of sheep....


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## teddy_eq (13 October 2021)

Why some packs just won't tow the line and hunt within the law, completely baffles me.

'Accidents' happen, but on the face of it, this does not sound like one. I am prepared to be corrected on that...

As PurBee has said, it'll ruin trail hunting for the packs that do hunt within the law.


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## 1life (13 October 2021)

Our local hunt can't ever tell us where they are going to be - surely if they were truly 'drag hunting' they would know? Consequently, we have to keep our horses in, in case they come our way (too disturbing for the horses to be out). It truly disrupts our whole day....no other sport has this effect on my horses' routine!


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## teddy_eq (13 October 2021)

1life said:



			Our local hunt can't ever tell us where they are going to be - surely if they were truly 'drag hunting' they would know? Consequently, we have to keep our horses in, in case they come our way (too disturbing for the horses to be out). It truly disrupts our whole day....no other sport has this effect on my horses' routine!
		
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Well, I think some packs cannot publish their meet cards because of anti's.

I know packs who are in this position however, they are not packs who routinely break the law!


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## paddy555 (13 October 2021)

1life said:



			Our local hunt can't ever tell us where they are going to be - surely if they were truly 'drag hunting' they would know?
		
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that is simply one of them mysteries of the universe with no answer 
it is beyond me to understand if they are following a trail and that trail does not come across my fields (where they are not allowed) they should still be crossing the fields.


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## fankino04 (13 October 2021)

It baffles me that previous "hunt" hunts still use the same dogs and training methods as when they were fox hunting instead of trail hunting, surely they should do as the original drag hunts did, I don't recall regular uproars about drag hunting turning into fox / pet / sheep / calf etc hunting. Of course if they changed things to do it properly they wouldn't "accidentally" end up on a fox hunt when "a few hounds went rogue" and we all know they so desperately don't want to give up fox hunting and have no incentive to do so.


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## meleeka (13 October 2021)

Plenty of people break the law on a daily basis, but just aren’t as brazen about it.  Think of the amount of people who are banned from owning horses who just carry on regardless.  I know of at least 3 in my area!   There just isn’t the police to deal with crime these days and that’s what this is.  They might think they are above the law, but I hope they get their comeuppance once the video is widely shared.


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## Sandstone1 (13 October 2021)

And they wonder why people are against them!    They seem to think the law does not apply to them.   I would imagine a court case will come of this as its clearly breaking the law and all on film.


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## ycbm (13 October 2021)

Sandstone1 said:



			And they wonder why people are against them!    They seem to think the law does not apply to them.   I would imagine a court case will come of this as its clearly breaking the law and all on film.
		
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Unfortunately it isn't necessarily breaking the law.  The law allows for the hounds to _accidentally_ pick up the scent of a fox and for the hunt to not be able to call them off.  Proving it was deliberate is the key,  and quite difficult.  
.


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## AFishOutOfWater (13 October 2021)

1life said:



			Our local hunt can't ever tell us where they are going to be - surely if they were truly 'drag hunting' they would know? Consequently, we have to keep our horses in, in case they come our way (too disturbing for the horses to be out). It truly disrupts our whole day....no other sport has this effect on my horses' routine!
		
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Ours are the same, and you do have to wonder why when there are no anti groups. There's hunt monitors nearby but that's it. But as ycbm says it would be proving that any kill wasn't accidental.


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## Sandstone1 (13 October 2021)

ycbm said:



			Unfortunately it isn't necessarily breaking the law.  The law allows for the hounds to _accidentally_ pick up the scent of a fox and for the hunt to not be able to call them off.  Proving it was deliberate is the key,  and quite difficult. 
.
		
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It looks pretty clear that they were calling the hounds on to the fox in that footage.  No attempt to call them off that I could see or hear.


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## ycbm (13 October 2021)

Sandstone1 said:



			It looks pretty clear that they were calling the hounds on to the fox in that footage.  No attempt to call them off that I could see or hear.
		
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Then I hope they can get a prosecution, they must at least attempt to call the hounds off.
.


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## GSD Woman (14 October 2021)

Are you sure the video is legit?  In the US at least the AR activists often slice and dice film to make a video look much worse that the real situation.


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## Tiddlypom (14 October 2021)

GSD Woman said:



			Are you sure the video is legit?  In the US at least the AR activists often slice and dice film to make a video look much worse that the real situation.
		
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The video is edited, of course, but the Bicester hounds really did kill a fox. At no point did I hear any attempt to call the hounds off, despite there being a lot of uncut footage played.

_"In response to the incident, a spokesperson for the Bicester Hunt and Whaddon Chase said: "There was an incident on Tuesday October 12 which occurred after some hounds strayed from the trail which had been laid for them to follow.
"This was immediately reported to the police by the hunt and we will assist them with any further enquiries."_

https://www.warwickshireworld.com/n...LirOa3NqOPBKjzVH9QI66GFcGtuikOdhi8bhyJbvDx0hE

If the hunt is playing by the MFHA smokescreen guidelines, then they will have their own video footage of the trail being laid prior to the hunt 'for the insurance' against legal bills. There is no way of knowing, though, if there would be any active scent being laid or if a clean hanky is just being dragged along the ground to fool onlookers.


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## skinnydipper (14 October 2021)

deleted - wrong thread


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## AShetlandBitMeOnce (14 October 2021)

Hugely disappointing, although I already knew it still happened it's not nice to see it happening so brazenly. There was no attempt to call off the hounds.
I know a lot of the 'good old days' lot don't want to give up their 'sport' but I was hopeful that the new generation wouldn't remember those days and would be happy with trail hunting in it's place. I know I hunted a lot and I would be happy with trail hunting. However, the longer this goes on the more conditioned to it the new generation will become and it will never die.


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## Parrotperson (14 October 2021)

its a poor law badly drafted and not implemented at all. At the time it keep the anti's happy (and the general public who know nothing of hunting). I remember grooming on the "last" day of traditional hunting. Huge field all drunk lots of falls etc all bemoaning the fact they're way of life was being banned 

Following week....back to normal hunting foxes. 

The only way to stop hunting is to ban it completely. But then what about fishing? or shooting pheasants/grouse? 

Its a s**t show all round. The police (rightly imho ) haven't got the time for it and can't interpret the daft law in any case.


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## AShetlandBitMeOnce (14 October 2021)

Parrotperson said:



			The only way to stop hunting is to ban it completely. But then what about fishing? or shooting pheasants/grouse?
		
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In my view you aren't chasing pheasant/grouse for the best part of an hour or longer, in absolute terror, until it's too physically exhausted to run any further at which point it gets ripped to shreds by dogs, hopefully mercilessly quickly.   It's one shot and down, and then neck rung if not a great shot (the downside, many aren't the best of shots). 

The anti's won't see it like that of course - it's all one and the same to them.

I do get quite angry when they don't even want to take the pheasant home to eat though, so wasteful.


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## GSD Woman (14 October 2021)

So in your trail hunting the hounds are on the scent of a human instead of a drag of fox litter?  Drag hunting in the US tends to use the drag of fox poop.  We do have more land to hunt of course and foxes can still be a real problem to farmers.  Coyotes are hunted in some parts of the US and they're more of a threat to livestock.  The foxhunters I know say that there is rarely kill around here.  The differences in the attitudes towards hunting is interesting to me.


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## ester (14 October 2021)

trail hunting= fox urine 
drag hounds  the human runner takes an artificial scent, 
bloodhounds think they just scent the runner


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## millikins (14 October 2021)

Tiddlypom said:



			The video is edited, of course, but the Bicester hounds really did kill a fox. At no point did I hear any attempt to call the hounds off, despite there being a lot of uncut footage played.

_"In response to the incident, a spokesperson for the Bicester Hunt and Whaddon Chase said: "There was an incident on Tuesday October 12 which occurred after some hounds strayed from the trail which had been laid for them to follow.
"This was immediately reported to the police by the hunt and we will assist them with any further enquiries."_

https://www.warwickshireworld.com/n...LirOa3NqOPBKjzVH9QI66GFcGtuikOdhi8bhyJbvDx0hE

If the hunt is playing by the MFHA smokescreen guidelines, then they will have their own video footage of the trail being laid prior to the hunt 'for the insurance' against legal bills. There is no way of knowing, though, if there would be any active scent being laid or if a clean hanky is just being dragged along the ground to fool onlookers.
		
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But they didn't admit a fox was killed. They have carefully said that "an incident occurred and was immediately reported to the police". Which could just as easily mean that the sabs distracted the hounds from the pre laid trail.
I doubt the video would stand up in court, there's no footage of the hounds and the live fox in the same shot nor of any actual kill, which isn't saying it didn't happen but the video doesn't prove it.
Why are the hunt staff on foot? I can hear horse hooves in some of the background.


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## skinnydipper (14 October 2021)

As fox hunting is illegal, why use fox derived odour as the target scent?


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## AShetlandBitMeOnce (14 October 2021)

millikins said:



			But they didn't admit a fox was killed. They have carefully said that "an incident occurred and was immediately reported to the police". Which could just as easily mean that the sabs distracted the hounds from the pre laid trail.
I doubt the video would stand up in court, there's no footage of the hounds and the live fox in the same shot nor of any actual kill, which isn't saying it didn't happen but the video doesn't prove it.
Why are the hunt staff on foot? I can hear horse hooves in some of the background.
		
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... unless I am much mistaken, the intro to the video is literally the dogs ripping apart the fox is it not?


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## Sandstone1 (14 October 2021)

Honestly, this just goes to show how the pro hunt brigade can not and do not want to see whats in front of them!   Clearly the hunts man was calling the hounds on.  He did not attempt to call off the hounds and the hounds obviously ripped the fox apart.  How on earth can the sabs have made that happen?    How can they have set that up?   Most of the video was not edited either.
Hounds were also among sheep too and apparently the hunt was trespassing too.    There are non so blind as those who will not see!


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## skinnydipper (14 October 2021)

millikins said:



			But they didn't admit a fox was killed. They have carefully said that "an incident occurred and was immediately reported to the police". Which could just as easily mean that the sabs distracted the hounds from the pre laid trail.
I doubt the video would stand up in court, there's no footage of the hounds and the live fox in the same shot nor of any actual kill, which isn't saying it didn't happen but the video doesn't prove it.
Why are the hunt staff on foot? I can hear horse hooves in some of the background.
		
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You think the woman in the video picked up some random dead fox and started waving it at the huntsman?

I think they only reported that an incident had occurred because they had been caught in the act.


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## millikins (14 October 2021)

AShetlandBitMeOnce said:



			... unless I am much mistaken, the intro to the video is literally the dogs ripping apart the fox is it not?
		
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It's a video of hounds tussling over an obviously dead fox. It's a clip taken from later in the video where the sab catches up with them.


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## millikins (14 October 2021)

skinnydipper said:



			You think the woman in the video picked up some random dead fox and started waving it at the huntsman?

I think they only reported that an incident had occurred because they had been caught in the act.
		
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Sabs do have form for using road kill foxes to "demonstrate" illegal hunting.

I don't know if the Bicester Hunt killed this fox, but as I said I don't think that video would stand up as proof.

It is a terrible law and is impossible to enforce. It is illegal to hunt and kill a fox using a pack of hounds. But it is not illegal to hunt and kill a fox using a pack of hounds so long as it was an accident. The police aren't interested so it is left to a bunch of what are essentially vigilantes, often using illegal activity themselves to prove that another group who say they are acting legitimately are in fact breaking the law.


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## Tiddlypom (14 October 2021)

Pro hunt do also like to claim that sabs plant road kill foxes for hounds to find and tear up. It's a convenient attempt at a cop out. Pots and kettles.

That was a very fresh looking fox, though, not a bedraggled one that might have been hauled out of someone's freezer.


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## ycbm (14 October 2021)

ester said:



			trail hunting= fox urine
drag hounds  the human runner takes an artificial scent,
bloodhounds think they just scent the runner
		
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Some drag hunts lay the scent on a horse's foot.  I've done trail laying once.  I thought my hard pulling horse would finally settle if he was right at the front laying the trail,  but if anything he pulled even harder!  He really lived to jump hedges 😁


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## ester (14 October 2021)

Now you've said that I think the cambs have used a horse on the occasions they are struggling for a runner.


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## skinnydipper (14 October 2021)

millikins said:



			It is illegal to hunt and kill a fox using a pack of hounds. But it is not illegal to hunt and kill a fox using a pack of hounds so long as it was an accident.
		
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I think there would be less likelihood of "accidental" fox hunting if the hounds were not trained using fox derived scent.  Is it beyond the skill of experienced trail huntsmen to train the hounds to track an artificial scent?


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## Tiddlypom (14 October 2021)

What scent do the drag packs use? I seem to remember aniseed being mentioned.


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## ester (14 October 2021)

I think it used to be aniseed but is something else now.


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## AShetlandBitMeOnce (14 October 2021)

millikins said:



			It's a video of hounds tussling over an obviously dead fox. It's a clip taken from later in the video where the sab catches up with them.
		
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Ahh apologies, I didn't watch the whole thing.


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## palo1 (14 October 2021)

Tiddlypom said:



			What scent do the drag packs use? I seem to remember aniseed being mentioned.
		
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One local drag pack near us uses the huntsman's pee...cheap, freely available and clearly distinguishable!


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