# Amber is lame



## Ambers Echo (23 April 2020)

She twisted a shoe off in September. She was not fully back in work till November and not jumping till January when she decked me twice.
Pro never mentioned any concerns about soundness though which I hope is reassuring! But videos from the pro show her looking tense and he described her as 'very difficult'.
Since having her back she has been going nicely on the flat, but she objected strongly to popping a cross pole a few days ago. Only did it once as she was clearly unhappy.
The following day she was lame. Same leg as before - front right. So now worrying it is the same injury not a random tweak. 

Vet came to nerve block and narrowed it down to front right foot or pastern. Will come back soon to start imaging. Healing vibes please Leg Gods. 

xx


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## Hormonal Filly (23 April 2020)

Healing vibes coming your way xx


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## The Fuzzy Furry (23 April 2020)

Hoping it's a tweak,  sending healing wishes x


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## TheOldTrout (23 April 2020)

Sending healing vibes. Hope she's better soon.


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## Asha (23 April 2020)

what injury did she have before ?


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## Ambers Echo (23 April 2020)

Asha said:



			what injury did she have before ?
		
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She twisted a shoe off in the field

https://forums.horseandhound.co.uk/threads/whole-family-is-lame.779822/


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## Ambers Echo (23 April 2020)

ETA vet saw her then and said 'wait and see' and we did and she seemed fine again after 4 weeks. x


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## milliepops (23 April 2020)

I hate those "wait and see" things, urghghhhh it's so horrible not knowing what is wrong with them. Even if they get better there's always a bit of a question mark over what it was.  I'm such a doom monger I would agree with pushing for the diagnostics now.  Hope you get some answers soon x


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## Ambers Echo (23 April 2020)

Yes well looking back at the 'we are all lame' post - I had an undiagnosed broken ankle then! We should have all been checked out a bit more thoroughly perhaps


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## Pearlsasinger (23 April 2020)

<<<Vibes>>> heading Amber's way.  I hope the injury is nothing serious but it might explain your/her  recent difficulties


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## milliepops (23 April 2020)

Ambers Echo said:



			Yes well looking back at the 'we are all lame' post - I had an undiagnosed broken ankle then! We should have all been checked out a bit more thoroughly perhaps 

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yeah, bad timing!  what a nightmare   is yours all back to normal now?


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## Asha (23 April 2020)

Ambers Echo said:



			She twisted a shoe off in the field

https://forums.horseandhound.co.uk/threads/whole-family-is-lame.779822/

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sorry i must have misread your post. I thought she'd had an injury before. Then twisted a shoe at another time. hopefully its just a tweak then.  Will keep everything crossed for you and her


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## ElectricChampagne (23 April 2020)

Healing vibes and fingers crossed its only a tweak...


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## SEL (23 April 2020)

A LOT of healing vibes from me. One of mine has just demolished half his hoof - I have a feeling its the result of a deep abscess earlier in the year. To say he looks awful would be an understatement.

Really hope its just a tweak. I have decided horses are no good for my blood pressure right now.


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## Fiona (23 April 2020)

I'm so sorry AE, hope its nothing, maybe related to the recent hard ground????

Such a worry for you x

Fiona


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## Michen (23 April 2020)

Hugs xx


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## Ambers Echo (23 April 2020)

milliepops said:



			yeah, bad timing!  what a nightmare   is yours all back to normal now?
		
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No not really. The doc at the hospital said that would now always be my 'bad ankle' but I think writing off a body part like that is a little premature! So I've been doing a lot of physio but flexing it is still very painful. Something gets stuck when I flex. Most other things seem ok.


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## Ambers Echo (23 April 2020)

SEL said:



			. I have decided horses are no good for my blood pressure right now.
		
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Dolly is a Godsend at the moment. And just being able to get out and spend time with them both is so special, now more than ever. But they are VERY stressful.


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## Ambers Echo (23 April 2020)

Fiona said:



			I'm so sorry AE, hope its nothing, maybe related to the recent hard ground????

Such a worry for you x

Fiona
		
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Thanks. I doubt it's hard ground. I am mainly hacking in walk on tarmac or ambling round a field. Or on a surface. No jumping on grass or anything, Don't think Harry did either. All on a surface or hacking on roads.


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## ITPersonnage (23 April 2020)

Sorry to hear about Amber's lameness but surely (??) the pro would have sent her back if he'd suspected a lameness issue - he must have known working her with an injury would/could have made it worse? Or am I being naive? Anyway, I am another one who's sick to the back teeth of un-diagnosed lameness, you have my sympathy in buckets if its any good to you...


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## milliepops (23 April 2020)

ITPersonnage said:



			Sorry to hear about Amber's lameness but surely (??) the pro would have sent her back if he'd suspected a lameness issue - he must have known working her with an injury would/could have made it worse? Or am I being naive?
		
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possibly... hopefully it wasn't something that was grumbling on then but I have seen other examples of where there's something that is not obvious, treated as a training issue, because that's the way it's been framed by the pro/owner/etc -not through negligence just because there was never anything specific enough going on to mean anyone noticed a physical issue. 

Fingers crossed this is something simple and quick to resolve, obviously.


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## Fiona (23 April 2020)

Ambers Echo said:



			Thanks. I doubt it's hard ground. I am mainly hacking in walk on tarmac or ambling round a field. Or on a surface. No jumping on grass or anything, Don't think Harry did either. All on a surface or hacking on roads.
		
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I meant that maybe she had been throwing some shapes in the field when turned out, not that you had over-ridden her x x 

Fiona


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## Ambers Echo (23 April 2020)

Oh I see. Yes always possible! She is quite acrobatic.


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## Ambers Echo (23 April 2020)

milliepops said:



			possibly... hopefully it wasn't something that was grumbling on then but I have seen other examples of where there's something that is not obvious, treated as a training issue, because that's the way it's been framed by the pro/owner/etc -not through negligence just because there was never anything specific enough going on to mean anyone noticed a physical issue.

Fingers crossed this is something simple and quick to resolve, obviously.
		
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Whenever a horse 'misbehaves' I think pain first off. As I did when she threw me off in January but I assumed it was a damaged saddle that she was reacting to. Pro said she was 'very difficult'. You'd hope he would spot lameness but many don't and many ride through behaviours that would make me wonder about thinking outside the training issue box. I did tell him she was a generous, hard working horse! But he just said she was only willing for me because I did not expect enough from her. And I accepted that. But now I think she was telling him all along she was unhappy. I just have a horrid feeling she has not been right for a while.


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## milliepops (23 April 2020)

possibly.. don't beat yourself up though, we're all doing our best all the time and sometimes things slip through (or don't, this is just thinking out loud and its entirely possible it's a  new acute problem). x

in fairness to pros they are in a bit of a tricky situation when presented with a new horse they don't know, brought to them for training, it's inevitable that things will be approached from a training issue POV. While I think we should definitely all be aware and questioning about physical issues it's hard to untangle them from training problems sometimes esp if it's something fairly subtle, compared to an obvious unsoundness or sore spot etc.  Of course he may also have been completely not questioning and just ploughing on but it's impossible to tell from here.


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## ITPersonnage (23 April 2020)

Ambers Echo said:



			I did tell him she was a generous, hard working horse!
		
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I suspect that most owners would say that (and I'm definitely NOT saying she isn't, quite the contrary) but I guess the pro would think "yeah, yeah heard that one before" - but I do get what you're saying MP and AE. It is difficult to tell what's pain/naughtiness/training issue sometimes.


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## Ambers Echo (23 April 2020)

I do get that MP and ITP. I just wish I'd never sent her away in the first place. Still, hindsight eh.


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## ITPersonnage (23 April 2020)

Awww don't be hard on yourself, you didn't have a great deal of choice at the time IIRC ?  Hopefully you'll get to the bottom of this and sort it!


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## Wheels (24 April 2020)

You can't change what's done now AE so try not to overthink things now.  Maybe she was sore, maybe not.  I think you've had some good rides recently so it could well be new or on / off thing

Hopefully your vet will find the cause and its something easily sortable  x


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## Ambers Echo (24 April 2020)

Thanks Wheels. Fingers crossed!


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## Ambers Echo (24 April 2020)

Vet coming back on Tuesday.


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## scats (24 April 2020)

Hope she is ok AE xx


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## hopscotch bandit (24 April 2020)

milliepops said:



			possibly... hopefully it wasn't something that was grumbling on then but I have seen other examples of where there's something that is not obvious, treated as a training issue, because that's the way it's been framed by the pro/owner/etc -not through negligence just because there was never anything specific enough going on to mean anyone noticed a physical issue.

Fingers crossed this is something simple and quick to resolve, obviously.
		
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Yep the same thing happened to a friends 4yr old sent for backing to a pro. Pro assumed symptoms were a training issue. When friend saw horse being ridden/heard about issues she quickly realised as a vet physio that the horse needing a referral to a vet hospital. Diagnostics quite soon after found juvenile arthritis, very sadly horse pts few years on.


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## Skib (24 April 2020)

So sorry about this. We know how you love her.


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## Nari (24 April 2020)

I once had a horse damage ligaments in the foot when he wrenched a shoe off, do you think she could have done that? He came sound eventually but it took time, and for a good while he was sound in a straight line but I'd still feel it on a turn. He was a tough horse too, for him to show a reaction I knew there was a problem.


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## Coblover63 (24 April 2020)

I can't believe the rotten luck you have!!


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## Ambers Echo (24 April 2020)

Nari said:



			I once had a horse damage ligaments in the foot when he wrenched a shoe off, do you think she could have done that? He came sound eventually but it took time, and for a good while he was sound in a straight line but I'd still feel it on a turn. He was a tough horse too, for him to show a reaction I knew there was a problem.
		
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Yes that is what I am afraid of. BUT since then she has had quite a few dressage lessons, entered dressage tests online and been to a pro for 8 weeks. Even if I can believe I am utterly clueless and could miss lameness for 6 months, surely someone else would have picked it up? Feeling sick at the possibility that she has been injured since September and I've just not noticed.


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## Ambers Echo (24 April 2020)

Skib said:



			So sorry about this. We know how you love her.
		
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Thank-you. Yes I do. I've never loved a horse like I love her!


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## milliepops (24 April 2020)

Ambers Echo said:



			Yes that is what I am afraid of. BUT since then she has had quite a few dressage lessons, entered dressage tests online and been to a pro for 8 weeks. Even if I can believe I am utterly clueless and could miss lameness for 6 months, surely someone else would have picked it up? Feeling sick at the possibility that she has been injured since September and I've just not noticed.
		
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Kira's last injury really highlighted to me how easy it is to miss a niggling thing, she was not lame, she passed a workup with flying colours and i had deliberately booked in with the top lameness guy at horspital because I was so worried, nothing to feel on palpation or see on scan and we were sent home to wait and see. I knew she wasn't right only because I know what her legs feel like in minute detail!  I could have quite easily carried on working her.

Michen only picked up boggle's injury with a very subtle sign.  this is not a criticism of anyone but it does show how horses will carry on working even carrying a subtle niggle and can easily be overlooked as crookedness/training issue/weakness etc.

Again, I hope it isn't one of those things, but I would expect they are actually quite common.


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## Roxylola (24 April 2020)

It's hard when its subtle - if I watch anything hard enough long enough I can see "lameness" especially when being ridden. Shes not a baby horse so it's easy to see an off step and think tension/stiffness/attitude/deep surface/hard surface etc. If shed been clearly lame it's different and possibly if shed been properly trotted up maybe shed have shown lame but all you can do is go forward now


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## Wheels (24 April 2020)

Ambers Echo said:



			Yes that is what I am afraid of. BUT since then she has had quite a few dressage lessons, entered dressage tests online and been to a pro for 8 weeks. Even if I can believe I am utterly clueless and could miss lameness for 6 months, surely someone else would have picked it up? Feeling sick at the possibility that she has been injured since September and I've just not noticed.
		
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I think that you, your trainer, a dressage judge or the pro you sent her to would have noticed something was amiss had there been something wrong all this time. OR it was so subtle / intermittent that it was not noticable.  Most of us who have dealt with subtle issues always knew there was 'something' not right and you would have known that too


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## Michen (24 April 2020)

Wheels said:



			I think that you, your trainer, a dressage judge or the pro you sent her to would have noticed something was amiss had there been something wrong all this time. OR it was so subtle / intermittent that it was not noticable.  Most of us who have dealt with subtle issues always knew there was 'something' not right and you would have known that too
		
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I didn’t until I had a few more SJ lessons and saw a pattern.  Boggle was trained and watched by Caroline Moore at 2 days of camp and it wasn’t noticed. He hunted all winter, was seen by two different dressage instructors in my area and then another one in Cheshire when he went up there for a month whilst I was travelling.

Its very easy for something subtle to be missed. Instructors aren’t vets, and even vets themselves can struggle to find or see things without tools!

oops quoted wrong post soz!

Also finally to add... the girl who produced him for me when we took him to that indoor to put him over some bigger fences said he felt the best he’d ever felt (bar the disuniting). His flat work was miles ahead of where it was 6 months before... there was absolutely nothing other than the disuniting to suggest I had anything other than a fit horse who was extremely happy in his work. Urghhh I feel your pain though I shudder at hunting him on that injury.


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## SEL (25 April 2020)

I spent months with instructors and vets telling me she was a bit backwards and needing pushing forward. No matter how many times I said she's forward when she's well. Lost track of the number of trot-ups and even a lunge where I was told her trot was "conservative".

It took an argument in the middle of the yard with me pointing out I was paying to get the suspensory ligaments scanned. 

I still beat myself up for not being more assertive earlier on.


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## Abi90 (25 April 2020)

My horse has ringbone in one pastern. It’s most likely due to an accident as a youngster as it’s just the one pastern and it is old and has been there a long while, certainly since she’s been backed.

First vet missed it in vetting, why would he not? She’s not not even lame on flexions. A couple of years ago I had a few issues with her and she went in for a work up where 3 different vets did trot ups and flexions and passed her as completely sound. I chucked her in a field for 6 months and she came back fine. 18 months after that I had similar issues again (although somewhat saddle related).  Vet, physio and Chiropractor all say she’s sound and can’t see a problem.

I take her to the vets for a gastroscope and have noticed that morning her Pastern is swollen so ask the vet to take a look at it. Scope is clean but he x rays the pastern and it is pretty advanced on the arthritis front. She comes back in for a work up. When you look at her really closely she has a decreased range of movement in that leg and uses it slightly differently, still not noticeable lame and not lame on flexions. Vet was astounded. They medicated the joint and I got saddle sorted and she’s now fine. 

That was 5 vets, 2 physios and 2 Chiros that missed that, we found it by chance. So I wouldn’t beat yourself up too much yet!


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## Goldenstar (25 April 2020)

No there’s nothing for you to beat yourself up about .
I hope you get answer soon so at least know what it is .
It’s extremely bad luck


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## ycbm (25 April 2020)

All of us who have had horses long enough have been where you are at some point AE. 

Horses go lame a lot. There isn't likely to be a connection at all with the pulled shoe 6 months ago, given everything she's done meanwhile. 

There's no reason to think she was wrong at the Pro's. I wasn't surprised by his report. She didn't look or sound  to me like the kind of horse who would take easily to being ordered about. I wouldn't have thought of physical pain from his report. 

Cut yourself some slack. 

.


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## Ambers Echo (26 April 2020)

Thanks everyone. I'll get some answers soon I hope x


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## Michen (28 April 2020)

AE good luck today. XXX


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## PictusSweetDreams (28 April 2020)

Hope everything goes well today


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## Ambers Echo (28 April 2020)

Abnormal xrays. Navicular bone looks ragged.  Vet thinks DDFT injury running into foot. MRI to confirm or rule out.


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## milliepops (28 April 2020)

Oh utter BALLS  was so hoping you would get a simple answer.


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## Michen (28 April 2020)

Ambers Echo said:



			Abnormal xrays. Navicular bone looks ragged.  Vet thinks DDFT injury running into foot. MRI to confirm or rule out.
		
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Oh AE I am so sorry, my stomach just dropped reading this. How did it look in comparison to the other one? The hoofy knowledgable people will I’m sure be along in a minute but I’m SURE you can have awful looking nav bones on x rays and it’s completely irrelevant.

I assume a DDFT injury is better than something chronic, particularly as just in one hoof?

What did the vet say re treatment?

Massive massive hug and BIG glass of wine, a sob and then a plan!! Xx


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## PictusSweetDreams (28 April 2020)

Truly gutting hearing that, however I hope the MRI confirms it for you so that you have a definitive answer and can move forward with her recovery. (I mean that in the nicest possible way)


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## Ambers Echo (28 April 2020)

Other foot looked fine. I asked vet what could be done if it is DDFT injury and  he said it depends on degree of damage but he was clear this could  be the end as far as jumping/eventing goes. 

This is a vet with 20 years experience as a lameness specialist at Newmarket. I think his gut feeling is worth listening to. And he was pretty gloomy. I am trying not to be massively pessimistic but am preparing for the worst.


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## Michen (28 April 2020)

Ambers Echo said:



			Other foot looked fine. I asked vet what could be done if it is DDFT injury and  he said it depends on degree of damage but he was clear this could  be the end as far as jumping/eventing goes.

This is a vet with 20 years experience as a lameness specialist at Newmarket. I think his gut feeling is worth listening to. And he was pretty gloomy. I am trying not to be massively pessimistic but am preparing for the worst.
		
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Hope you are as ok as can be. How soon can she get in for an MRI?


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## Wheels (28 April 2020)

Ambers Echo said:



			Abnormal xrays. Navicular bone looks ragged.  Vet thinks DDFT injury running into foot. MRI to confirm or rule out.
		
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Hopefully the MRI will give you something concrete to be able to treat accordingly.  Fingers crossed it is something sortable


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## milliepops (28 April 2020)

horrible limbo land to be in while you are waiting for all the diagnostics


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## Roxylola (28 April 2020)

Oh I'm gutted for you. I can only echo Michens hugs and wine really. What rotten rotten luck xx


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## ponyparty (28 April 2020)

Oh bloody hell. Sorry to read this AE. Saw your thread when you started it and was hoping for a positive outcome. Let's hope it's not as bad as it initially appears; will be crossing everything for you!


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## TPO (28 April 2020)

Sorry to hear that diagnosis AE. Your mind will be racing but try not to think worse case.

I cant remember posters name but the horse was Buddy and I think he had similar. He went to Rockley and then back out eventing.


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## milliepops (28 April 2020)

Buddy was leg_end I think


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## JFTDWS (28 April 2020)

Oh ffs   You really don't have a lot of luck.

I hope there's a better prognosis than you're currently expecting.


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## Dyllymoo (28 April 2020)

Oh I'm so sorry   Hopefully you can get an MRI soon and go from there


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## ihatework (28 April 2020)

Pants 😔


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## ester (28 April 2020)

Buddy can also be found under Buddy's barefoot adventures on facebook.


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## The Fuzzy Furry (28 April 2020)

Oh bum, hope the MRI can be done asap.
It's not looking clever at present,  hugs x


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## oldie48 (28 April 2020)

Bugger, you must be gutted! Sending a hug. I hope the MRI gives you better news.


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## SEL (28 April 2020)

Oh that's cr*p - you haven't had much luck recently.


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## Abi90 (28 April 2020)

Oh I’m so sorry AE. It might not be as bad as it seems, Rosie’s pastern looks horrific, so horrific that the vet couldn’t understand why she’s not lame and why she’s not even lame on flexions. 

I know nothing about DDFT injuries but feel free to PM me if you want a chat about bad luck and to see some gnarly x rays!


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## Wheels (28 April 2020)

just remember that there are a number of soft tissue areas within the foot.  M was off games in September / October due to a soft tissue injury in both front feet.  His feet were unbalanced so after 5 weeks of rest I also pulled the shoes so I think he probably had 8 or 9 weeks off altogether and then built him up slowly (mostly due to the recent barefoot)

we didn't get as far as MRI because he came sound pretty quickly so not sure exactly which soft tissue was injured but it shows that they can come back from feet issues. 

good luck


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## HufflyPuffly (28 April 2020)

Oh no , keeping everything crossed for a good outcome for you!


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## Meredith (28 April 2020)

I am so sorry AE. Hoping for better news from the MRI.


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## ITPersonnage (28 April 2020)

AE I'm so very sorry  to hear this.


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## Pearlsasinger (28 April 2020)

I'm sorry to hear your news but at least you know what's been going on now.  I hope your vet comes up with a workable plan.


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## Leo Walker (28 April 2020)

Dont despair yet. Wait until you have all the information at hand. Theres been lots of horses who have come back from this sort of thing, and navicular bones are one of those funny things that can look awful, yet be functionally fine.


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## Fiona (28 April 2020)

Ambers Echo said:



			Abnormal xrays. Navicular bone looks ragged.  Vet thinks DDFT injury running into foot. MRI to confirm or rule out.
		
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Bum to that 

Can he do the MRI soon???

Fiona


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## Ambers Echo (28 April 2020)

I'm trying not to 2nd guess the outcome of the MRI. Referral being made today to Leahurst so hopefully they can see her pretty quickly.


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## NinjaPony (28 April 2020)

Really sorry to hear that, at least you know what the issue may be but it's still rubbish.


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## ycbm (28 April 2020)

Ambers Echo said:



			Abnormal xrays. Navicular bone looks ragged.  Vet thinks DDFT injury running into foot. MRI to confirm or rule out.
		
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Its bad news but it's not disastrous  news. 

Abnormal xrays are in fact pretty normal, rarely related to the degree of lameness or subsequent prognosis, and Rockley Farm and others have rehabbed many, many horses with ddft injuries inside the foot to full work.

Your difficulty will be if your insurance cover means you have to follow vet and farrier advice and if those two insist that the answer is shoes. Because without a doubt the best chance she has of jumping again is a barefoot rehab.

We are a few miles apart, AE, and should you choose to go down the barefoot route I would be happy to do anything in my power to help you with it. 

.


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## Abi90 (28 April 2020)

ycbm said:



			Its bad news but it's not disastrous  news. 

Abnormal xrays are in fact pretty normal, rarely related to the degree of lameness or subsequent prognosis, and Rockley Farm and others have rehabbed many, many horses with ddft injuries inside the foot to full work.

Your difficulty will be if your insurance cover means you have to follow vet and farrier advice and if those two insist that the answer is shoes. Because without a doubt the best chance she has of jumping again is a barefoot rehab.

We are a few miles apart, AE, and should you choose to go down the barefoot route I would be happy to do anything in my power to help you with it. 

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Sorry AE to jump on your thread, YCBM do you have any thoughts on barefoot for ringbone? PM if it’s easier so as not to clutter up this thread


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## SOS (28 April 2020)

Sorry to hear that AE. I have a positive story re DDFTs.

I had a horse very, very slightly lame so much that they questioned whether I was sure I wanted to MRI when taken to horsepital. It had tore 80% of the DDFT in its foot on right fore, it should of been crippled. However it was sound within a month, turned away for 18 months barefoot on hills and crunchy ground and is happily hacking and enjoying low level life with his new owner who adores him. I was going to keep him as he could of hunted lightly (I would always avoid repeated circles/tight turns wirh this injury) however the chance of reoccurrence is high so I decided it was in his best interest to find someone that would love him for the perfect hack he is. Yes he didn’t come back to eventing and hunting with me but I couldn’t be happier with the outcome. Sound, happy horse.

Time, time, time and listen to the horse. The vet said the horse wanted to be sound as they were as shocked as us at the MRI and I believe that. It wanted to come right. Others are not so lucky.


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## ycbm (28 April 2020)

Abi90 said:



			Sorry AE to jump on your thread, YCBM do you have any thoughts on barefoot for ringbone? PM if it’s easier so as not to clutter up this thread
		
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I think its OK here? Let us know if it's not AE.


I've seen one barefoot horse develop it and sail through it with no lameness but definite changes of foot shape to accommodate it as it developed. I've owned a horse with hock spavins who did the same. He grew internally wonky hind feet to take the pressure off the hock joint and was sound enough to hack with no medication.

I would never, if I  could avoid it, put metal on the end of  a leg with any arthritic  condition because it adds to the concussion and prevents adaptive changes in the shape of the foot. 


.


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## Abi90 (28 April 2020)

ycbm said:



			I think its OK here? Let us know if it's not AE.


I've seen one barefoot horse develop it and sail through it with no lameness but definite changes of foot shape to accommodate it as it developed. I've owned a horse with hock spavins who did the same. He grew internally wonky hind feet to take the pressure off the hock joint and was sound enough to hack with no medication.

I would never, if I  could avoid it, put metal on the end of  a leg with any arthritic  condition because it adds to the concussion and prevents adaptive changes in the shape of the foot. 


.
		
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Thanks. Those were my thoughts, to prevent concussion and it getting worse (although it’s nearly fused as it is!) she’s not overtly lame on it and never has been but if I can keep her more comfortable. Will speak to my farrier on Friday and see about taking her hind shoes off. 

Very ugly x-rays and pretty sound horse, amazing really but don’t want to make it any worse than it needs to be!


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## HelenBack (28 April 2020)

ycbm said:



			Its bad news but it's not disastrous  news.

Abnormal xrays are in fact pretty normal, rarely related to the degree of lameness or subsequent prognosis, and Rockley Farm and others have rehabbed many, many horses with ddft injuries inside the foot to full work.

Your difficulty will be if your insurance cover means you have to follow vet and farrier advice and if those two insist that the answer is shoes. Because without a doubt the best chance she has of jumping again is a barefoot rehab.

We are a few miles apart, AE, and should you choose to go down the barefoot route I would be happy to do anything in my power to help you with it.

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Just to say that if you did decide to go down the BF route, my vet fully supported it and between us we got the insurance company on side too. My horse didn't go to Rockley but did spend some time at a barefoot place and the insurance helped with this. 

I expect you can't really make any decisions until you've had the MRI. The only reason I'm mentioning it now is because although my vet immediately said yes when I asked about taking the shoes off, I don't think he would have brought it up if I hadn't. I suspect the usual recommendations of remedial farriery etc are partly because that's what most owners expect and want. I think you've tried barefoot before though and so this might be something you're considering, so I thought it would be helpful for you to know this now.


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## DressageCob (28 April 2020)

Fingers crossed the MRI gives a more positive picture. 

I'm heartened to see you can get a vet for a lameness workup, despite the current circumstances. It saves the owners the agony of trying to decide if their precious horse being uncomfortable is an "emergency" or not. 

I do hope you get better news after the MRI.


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## Red-1 (28 April 2020)

I am so sorry, not the news anyone would want. 

I am also sure that you will do everything in your power to help her to heal.


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## DabDab (28 April 2020)

Ah that's rubbish news AE x


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## ester (28 April 2020)

Abi, at the very least it can be an interesting exercise to see what they do hoof wise. Frank had a wonky hind way before he was ever lame enough to notice (spavin that side).

Obviously anything soft tissue hoofy I am a barefoot rehab advocate if that is the only thing going on.
Sometimes you need to mention to the vet that you are ok to do that and prep for a longer haul/rehab time as they tend to presume owners just want a fix asap. Fwiw my insurance said would have paid for barefoot rehab, but it wasn't worth bothering in the end. (They also said that after said rehab they would have to be done by a registered farrier to comply with the cover requirements, they have hopefully sorted out that contradiction by now!)


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## Ambers Echo (28 April 2020)

Thanks everyone. I am open minded, open to different ideas and have read Feet First. But I also trust my vet and will be very much guided by him. I will ask the questions though. Hopefully things will be clearer soon.


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## ester (28 April 2020)

The best thing Nic said to me when I was deciding what to do (vet advising bar shoes) was well they can always come off again. Which was true, I put a mental timeline in place for them to help, they didn't so they came off after 3 months.


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## southerncomfort (29 April 2020)

Rubbish news. Really sorry for you and Amber. X


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## scats (29 April 2020)

Gutted for you AE.  Had exactly the same problem with Tobi.
Sending a hug x


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## Ambers Echo (29 April 2020)

Thanks everyone. It all feels a bit unreal at the moment and I go from thinking she's barely even lame so there can't really be a problem to thinking her eventing career is over. I can't quite believe that the world's best XC horse (imo) won't ever go XC again! But we are not there yet so I am trying to stay positive. Not optimistic exactly but at least in a state not knowing rather than a state of assuming the worst.


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## Michen (29 April 2020)

Ambers Echo said:



			Thanks everyone. It all feels a bit unreal at the moment and I go from thinking she's barely even lame so there can't really be a problem to thinking her eventing career is over. I can't quite believe that the world's best XC horse (imo) won't ever go XC again! But we are not there yet so I am trying to stay positive. Not optimistic exactly but at least in a state not knowing rather than a state of assuming the worst.
		
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I feel the same about Boggle as I can’t imagine a scenario where he ever hunts properly again, only autumn hunting on perfect ground. After all this careful rehab why would I risk it. And hunting to me comes way before eventing!

Its gutting but at the end of the day I’m sure, like I with Bog, you love Amber for far more than her ability to cart you around an XC and you will be focused on what you can do with her rather than what you can’t. Hopefully the XC will still be doable anyway!

I think you’ll come out the other side of this loving her more than ever even though that probably doesn’t feel possible!


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## Ambers Echo (29 April 2020)

Oh she will definfely find a job! She is already a fab therapy horse for Equine Assisted Therapy as she is a total mirror to her handler. But hopefully she can be my pony partner in other ways too.


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## Alibear (29 April 2020)

I'm sorry the news so far isn't great, I hope the MRI clears up what it is and what your option are. It sounds like you're both in expert hands so I'm sure they'll see you through to recovery.  Dolly is going to be a busy little mare in the mean time  
Its about a year since I got the bad news and already I have a new main ride in the works and Daisy has surprised the vets with how well she's healing up. So there is hope.


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## Hormonal Filly (29 April 2020)

So sorry to hear that crap news, hopefully theres a good outcome to it! Everything crossed for you.


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## lme (30 April 2020)

I am just about to go through the same thing. My lovely mare (who has a home for life whether or not she comes sound) was lame on her left fore last summer. She was sound after time off and then went lame again. Our vet now suspects navicular syndrome and we are trying to decide whether next step should be to MRI or try steroids.


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## Ambers Echo (6 May 2020)

Bittersweet set of E-rider results. A 65.2 and then a personal best of 67.34 (technically 65.34 but I lose 2 marks for not saying my name on the video!) and some lovely comments. Hopefully dressage is in our future even if jumping isn't.


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## Roxylola (6 May 2020)

Well, that's another 2 professionals who couldn't see lameness so it must have been really subtle, dont beat yourself up.
Good results for you though


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## Ambers Echo (6 May 2020)

Thanks. I was dreading getting comments like 'unlevel' or other code words for 'you are riding a lame horse'.
My RI now says Amber has always had the odd step or 2 that looks iffy but then seems to recover and be fine again. So maybe the issue has been bubbling away at a very low level for a long, long time. Who knows. At the moment they are not doing MRIs for sports injuries. So I am in limbo for now.


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## ITPersonnage (6 May 2020)

Oh poor you, but well done on the marks, keep your chin up


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## Goldenstar (6 May 2020)

Ambers Echo said:



			Abnormal xrays. Navicular bone looks ragged.  Vet thinks DDFT injury running into foot. MRI to confirm or rule out.
		
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Oh no that’s awful news.
Hope you don’t have to wait to long for the MRI


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## milliepops (6 May 2020)

I hope you can fix her up and get back to the jumping but if not, it's not so bad on the dark side x  what a total bugger about having to wait for the MRI.


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## emfen1305 (6 May 2020)

Sorry to hear your bad news. I don't have an eventer by any means but I have a cob went lame in September. He had been ok all summer going out and about doing dressage but had a tendency to drop his shoulder and wasn't really improving in our dressage scores so I got a work up and ended up going down the MRI root as blocked to the foot but x-rays were clean. The MRI showed really awful degeneration of the bone in the right fore, so much so that an unrelated vet who did his first shockwave whilst my vet was on holiday thought she was doing the wrong horse when he walked off the box as happy as larry so images and what's in front of you don't always tell the same story! Both of the farriers that have seen him (my normal farrier and the vet farrier) think its a congenital condition and poor shoeing before i got him might have been enough to tip him over the edge

I know the preferred route for navicular is barefoot however i think ycbm posted earlier on that shoes will be recommended and if you are bound by insurance then that's the route you have to follow so i did! He had the kitchen sink thrown at him, steroids, shockwave, tildren, shoes with a central plate and then the winter off and came back in Jan feeling fab and before lockdown was seeing an improvement everyday and our dressage scores jumped from low 60s to mid 70s so fingers crossed for you and it's not as bad as it seems!


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## Rosemary28 (7 May 2020)

Rubbish news AE, I'm sorry to hear that.


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## muddy_grey (7 May 2020)

So sorry to hear this. My mare had surgery on a high ddft tear (fetlock height) and the surgeon was pretty negative 50/50 she would be sound. That was 2 1/2 years ago and she is now back jumping and competing. I hope you get a similar outcome and know how hard it is to not spiral. I say at least I don't have to feel like I am not good enough for her anymore, she ruined herself


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## Ambers Echo (3 September 2020)

Overdue update. MRIs weren't being offered in April - vet was suggesting it might be 3 months - so we decided to try time and Dr Green instead. She has been fine in the field. Playful, active. Her movement looked great so I honestly believed she would be sound at the next assessment. But today she was trotted on a tight right circle and there has been no improvement at all in that front right foot. 

MRI is now going ahead so at least we know for sure one way or another. I have been warned that there may be no treatment options identified by the MRI. But if it's bad news at least I will know.

I thought I was realistic about the fact that this injury could be career ending. I cried buckets and then I bought Toby. But I now realise that I never truly believed this would be how our story ends. Toby was my till-Amber-gets-better project. Not my instead-of-Amber horse. No other horse has ever given me feel and the sheer joy that she did. It was a total privilege to ride her. 

Gorgeous Girl:


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## Wheels (3 September 2020)

I'm really sorry to hear there is no improvement.  I hope the MRI shows it is something that can be resolved


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## southerncomfort (3 September 2020)

Oh I am sorry that it's not better news.

However unlikely it is, im still going to pray that whatever it is is fixable.

ETA ginger girls are the absolute best. X
X


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## BBP (3 September 2020)

I’m really sorry to hear that. I’m also in the midst of hard times, and the knowledge I will not ride him again. If he doesn’t have to be PTS then it means I may never ride again, as I can’t afford a second horse.


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## DabDab (3 September 2020)

Sorry to hear that AE. Fingers crossed you get better news at the MRI 🤞
She is a very special horse. Just such rotten luck


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## scats (3 September 2020)

Gutted for you AE, but got everything crossed for you that its something fixable xx


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## lme (3 September 2020)

Having gone through the same thing with my mare who has a similar injury (MRI was in May) I am now OK with the fact that I might not be able to ride her again and she appears to be adapting happily to her new (semi feral) lifestyle.


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## Michen (3 September 2020)

How lame Actually was she AE? 1/10 on a hard circle?


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## ITPersonnage (3 September 2020)

Sorry to hear that AE, and sorry BBP too. Rubbish luck for both of you.  Why are they so damned breakable ? Have a hug anyway.


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## Roxylola (3 September 2020)

Oh that's gutting. I'm so sorry, at least shes happy and moving freely out though


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## Ambers Echo (3 September 2020)

Michen said:



			How lame Actually was she AE? 1/10 on a hard circle?
		
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She's only ever been mildly lame. But not getting any better.


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## Michen (3 September 2020)

Ambers Echo said:



			She's only ever been mildly lame. But not getting any better.
		
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Well Boggle has been checked religiously every 6 months for 3 plus years. He is “sometimes” not quite level on a hard circle on his right fore. It’s also the one he lands outside first in if we don’t keep a really close eye on it. My vet has always said it’s so minor it wouldn’t even be picked up on a vetting. It has never got worse even when he was hunting twice weekly and he’s never been positive go flexion in front etc.

I’m not saying it’s nothing as know you have x rays but does she land level on both front feet? And is it only on a hard circle?


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## Asha (3 September 2020)

Sorry to hear this . 

My vet was saying something similar to Michen the other day when discussing mild lameness . Try and stay positive, as hard as it may feel right now . Hope you get some answers soon.


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## Ambers Echo (3 September 2020)

She is not just unlevel. She is clearly if mildly  lame on that foot. She also looks unhappy when circled. She puts her ears back and pulls one of her best bitch face expressions!


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## Michen (3 September 2020)

Ambers Echo said:



			She is not just unlevel. She is clearly if mildly  lame on that foot. She also looks unhappy when circled. She puts her ears back and pulls one of her best bitch face expressions!
		
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understand. I’m sorry that sucks for you both  hope the MRI gives some answers and whilst I HATE the idea of box rest I do think there’s a time and a place for controlled walking rehab if it’s feasible.


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## Ambers Echo (4 September 2020)

I've sent the BEVA conference abtract Ester dug out on the DDFT thread from Rockley Farm about barefoot rehab to my vet. I'll see what he says. I feel like I have to try_ something. _At this point I really have nothing to lose but any sort of rehab without guidance is scary as I don't want to make things worse.

I feel numb. I go from thinking 'oh she'll be fine in the end' to realising that actually she may not be. That this is REAL.  I was clearly in denial before. But watching her trot up on the lunge and seeing her the same totally broke my heart. It is on soft surfaces she struggles on the right rein.


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## Reacher (4 September 2020)

Sorry I haven’t read all the thread. But if it is ddft related I suggest you read prof Bowker’s work if you haven’t already and discuss with the vet.
https://thehorse.com/181721/bowker-navicular-issues-begin-earlier-than-we-think/
There are videos by him here discussing navicular 
http://www.thelaminitissite.org/feet-faq--articles/robert-bowker-hoof-anatomy-videosi

Sorry you are going through this and hope you get mri soon


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## Dyllymoo (4 September 2020)

I'm sorry to hear this.  Hopefully the MRI sheds some light and she can be made to feel better


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## Reacher (4 September 2020)

PS he discusses barefoot rehab trimming the toe very short which may be able to reverse the damage


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## ycbm (4 September 2020)

You're a long way from no options yet,  AE. I really don't understand why your vet has even put that idea in your head at this point. Most horses with Amber's  symptoms having an MRI will comeback with a soft tissue injury diagnosis.   And even if conventional treatments for that fail,  which they are sadly quite likely to,  you will still be left with the option of a barefoot rehab.


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## Roxylola (4 September 2020)

I really feel for you. Having a lame horse is bad enough at the best of times, but when you cant even find out what's wrong at the moment seems like an absolute nightmare


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## Bernster (4 September 2020)

Sorry to read the latest. She seems like an awesome horse and you clearly love her to bits.  When will you get the mri results?  I know it’s easy to say but try not to think of too many what’s ifs, they won’t help - get the results and if you get a clearer picture of what’s going on, then go from there.


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## teddypops (4 September 2020)

Don’t give up yet! My now 29year old went lame when she was 20. The vet never diagnosed the exact injury. Xrays & scans showed nothing. Nerve blocks pointed to something in the hoof. My next step was an MRI but I didn’t have one done as I decided it was a waste of money as I was just going to rest her anyway. 12 months of field rest later and she was completely sound. At 29 she is as fit and feisty as ever and in full work😁


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## lme (4 September 2020)

Ambers Echo said:



			I've sent the BEVA conference abtract Ester dug out on the DDFT thread from Rockley Farm about barefoot rehab to my vet. I'll see what he says. I feel like I have to try_ something. _At this point I really have nothing to lose but any sort of rehab without guidance is scary as I don't want to make things worse.

I feel numb. I go from thinking 'oh she'll be fine in the end' to realising that actually she may not be. That this is REAL.  I was clearly in denial before. But watching her trot up on the lunge and seeing her the same totally broke my heart. It is on soft surfaces she struggles on the right rein.
		
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Ny vet was sceptical about Rockley to really keen once ge spoke to Nic. it might be worth asking your vet to call her once he has MRI results. 

For me it’s a question of timing and uncertainty on my part about whether I want to bring my mare back into work.

She is now in foal  and we would need to wait until any foal is weaned before we could send her to Rockley anyway. The rehab requires them to do enough mileage when they come home to continue with the improvements started during the initial 12 weeks.


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## milliepops (4 September 2020)

hope you get some good news from the MRI x


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## SEL (4 September 2020)

My Appy mare possibly has the same injury but I can't afford the MRI to know for certain - changes to the navicular on the x ray made the vet suspect DDFT damage. Her view was though that whatever has been damaged in the foot then the cure is usually time. They have offered to try a steroid injection into it.

Never had shoes on and I think the initial injury happened on a deep arena surface some time ago.

The links to the various barefoot solutions above are worth a read. I've been trying to work out if I could replicate a Rockley type rehab plan at home, but I suspect those tracks of theirs are an integral part of it and I'm on livery so a bit stuffed from that perspective.

Hope you get good news from the MRI or at least answers so you can plan how to rehab xx


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## SEL (4 September 2020)

ycbm said:



			You're a long way from no options yet,  AE. I really don't understand why your vet has even put that idea in your head at this point. Most horses with Amber's  symptoms having an MRI will comeback with a soft tissue injury diagnosis.   And even if conventional treatments for that fail,  which they are sadly quite likely to,  you will still be left with the option of a barefoot rehab.
		
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Can you do a barefoot rehab without Rockley's tracks? That's the bit that I'm trying to work out given mine has never had shoes on.


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## Red-1 (4 September 2020)

Nooooo. Poor you and poor Amber. I only hope the MRI gives you answers and a good plan of action. X.


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## Ambers Echo (4 September 2020)

Thanks for well wishes. Hope those positive vibes translate into healing ones. At least she is field sound and happy. She seems very content with her life of leisure.


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## Ambers Echo (9 September 2020)

Thanks for all the links. I am going to try a DIY barefoot rehab if I can. Just trying to work out the logistics. 

So I am ok with feed, I think. Low sugar and starch, Feet First recommended balancer.
Trimming - I am following Prof Bowker's reccommendations re short toe, leave sole alone, medio-lateral balance. Assuming I can find a farrier/trimmer who will do that.
I can do 24/7 turnout on a variety of conformable surfaces  sand, pea gravel, wood chip as well as some pasture. But can't do a track system where she is. Though can have hay out in different places to encourage her to move. She is out with others and playful anyway. How important is restricting grass?

Am I meant to start hacking her out in walk? The vet is fine with me starting hacking her in walk. Not as part of barefoot which he is not a supporter of, but generally.

I am hopeful but not optimistic. I just can't get away from my belief that if there really was a cheap, effective treatment for common and career endfing injuries, it would be more widely recognised. And I have worked on enough research trials to know that promising avenues often yield disappointing results when looked at more closely. 

BUT it makes intuitive sense to me, enough credible folk support it, some outcomes obviously are good and it will stop me feeing so helpless. I may hold off on the MRI just because as far as I can see I would be dong the same regardless of whether it's the DDFT, collateral ligament or anything else in there! Their protocols for hoof pain seem the same and they treat horses withou an MRI so why spend £1200 on it?

Any thoughts or advice. Any NW people know a farrier/ trimmer supportive of this approach who would help? Wish us both luck.


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## HashRouge (9 September 2020)

Ambers Echo said:



			I am hopeful but not optimistic. I just can't get away from my belief that if there really was a cheap, effective treatment for common and career endfing injuries, it would be more widely recognised. And I have worked on enough research trials to know that promising avenues often yield disappointing results when looked at more closely.
.
		
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I think the problem is that barefoot rehab can take a long time to yield good results, and it is also bl00dy hard work! So it might be cheap and effective, but it's by no means an easy option and it is only effective if the work is put in and the horse is able to be kept in the right conditions/ fed the right diet.  You are looking at 6 months minimum, and you are never really "done" in the sense that you will still need to manage diet/ workload. My sister's horse went to Rockley and I know a number of other owners through attending a Rockley Rehab event and have them on Facebook, so I know how hard people have to work to continue Nic's good work even when their horse has had a great start at Rockley. It's not an easy option at all, especially when you are keeping a horse at livery and don't have your own set up. And as with any treatment, it doesn't _always _work.


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## ycbm (9 September 2020)

I'm so pleased to hear this AE 

Any help I can give,  you are welcome to.  You know I am only 10 minutes away.

You should not ride her unless she is landing heel first, or at least flat,  in front. The toe first landing is harmful.  If necessary,  video her in slomo  with the camera close to the floor to check.  Then walk her in hand until her landing is better. 

Restricting grass,  especially going into winter,  is completely unnecessary unless she has a metabolic problem.

Got to go out to a lesson right now but I'll come back later and see what others have advised.


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## milliepops (9 September 2020)

I'd still MRI in your shoes. The not knowing what it was would eat me up.


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## ycbm (9 September 2020)

HashRouge said:



			I think the problem is that barefoot rehab can take a long time to yield good results, and it is also bl00dy hard work! So it might be cheap and effective, but it's by no means an easy option and it is only effective if the work is put in and the horse is able to be kept in the right conditions/ fed the right diet.  You are looking at 6 months minimum, and you are never really "done" in the sense that you will still need to manage diet/ workload. My sister's horse went to Rockley and I know a number of other owners through attending a Rockley Rehab event and have them on Facebook, so I know how hard people have to work to continue Nic's good work even when their horse has had a great start at Rockley. It's not an easy option at all, especially when you are keeping a horse at livery and don't have your own set up. And as with any treatment, it doesn't _always _work.
		
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I've done 3 rehabs and none of them took anywhere near 6 months to be wtc  ridden sound.  They were dressage competition sound in 3 months for 2 and 4 months for a really bad one with terrible flat feet.  

Yes some take longer but Amber really doesn't sound like a severe case, she's already field soundto look at.
.


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## Ambers Echo (9 September 2020)

HashRouge said:



			I think the problem is that barefoot rehab can take a long time to yield good results, and it is also bl00dy hard work! So it might be cheap and effective, but it's by no means an easy option and it is only effective if the work is put in and the horse is able to be kept in the right conditions/ fed the right diet.  You are looking at 6 months minimum, and you are never really "done" in the sense that you will still need to manage diet/ workload. My sister's horse went to Rockley and I know a number of other owners through attending a Rockley Rehab event and have them on Facebook, so I know how hard people have to work to continue Nic's good work even when their horse has had a great start at Rockley. It's not an easy option at all, especially when you are keeping a horse at livery and don't have your own set up. And as with any treatment, it doesn't _always _work.
		
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This is not what their website says! It says the horse should be clearly improved within 4 weeks and ready to go home to 'normal' livery set ups within 12 as they recognise that maintaining what they do is unrealistic. Your post reflects exactly what happens in those disappointing research  treatment trials. You start looking into it/implemting the protocol and then all the caveats come out and things are nowhere near as promising as they initially seem. I am going into it with full commitment and an open mind. But it is a trial. Just as the trad approach was a trial. I will do the 12 weeks and see what happens. 

I really do appreiciate the advice though. Thanks for posting. Ir would not surprise me if the maintenance is much harder work than it looks on paper. But if those 12 weeks leave her sound that will be worth doing. But if she isn't I need to think again.


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## Ambers Echo (9 September 2020)

milliepops said:



			I'd still MRI in your shoes. The not knowing what it was would eat me up.
		
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Yes I think I will. I can't cope with the uncertainty anymore.


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## tristar (9 September 2020)

ycbm said:



			I've done 3 rehabs and none of them took anywhere near 6 months to be wtc  ridden sound.  They were dressage competition sound in 3 months for 2 and 4 months for a really bad one with terrible flat feet.  

Yes some take longer but Amber really doesn't sound like a severe case, she's already field soundto look at.



we`ve had dramatic improvements,  taking on balance 2 months, sometimes in two or three trims, 2 weeks apart, it just involves a change of routine,  for us no big deal, but the rewards have been enormous 
.
		
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## Reacher (9 September 2020)

I entirely understand your skepticism but if I were in your shoes I would feel I could not lose anything by trying.

Regarding the trim, this paper written with Bowker "Effects of barefoot trimming on hoof morphology" by Clayton et al - Horses are not lame - but paper describes how they did the trimming to rehab long toed underslung hooves and says to not lower the heels etc too quickly as would put strain on internal structures. They do it over about 4  months iirc .   Then the hooves improve  over course of 12 months after the toe is brought back to the “starting point”, so not a fast process. (The horses are exercised daily on sand).

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.1751-0813.2011.00806.x

I found a bowker conference paper too which discusses navicular 

https://www.researchgate.net/public...al_Morphologies_of_Good_and_Bad_Footed_Horses
Sorry if this is more info than you want but you can always ignore!

Best of luck with the mri


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## Wheels (9 September 2020)

Good luck with it AE.  Are there any track liveries nearby to help with the first weeks of transition?


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## Amymay (9 September 2020)

ycbm said:



			Yes some take longer but Amber really doesn't sound like a severe case, she's already field soundto look at.
.
		
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But still essentially lame.

BF rehab is always worth a go, but I’d absolutely MRI first.


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## TPO (9 September 2020)

Photos of her hooves would be needed really to give advice as to hoof health and they often give an indication if the diet is suitable.

While hooves can be improved in a short space of time 6mths isn't far off the mark when dealing with a supposed/undiagnosed soft tissue issue. While the hoof remodels itself, at times quickly, it still takes time to build hoof strength. There's no point bringing toes back to load weak heels. 

Out of all the books and papers I've read this is the one that resonated the most in regards to trimming and building a healthy hoof structure
https://smile.amazon.co.uk/Natural-...keywords=barefoot+horse&qid=1599639906&sr=8-5


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## HashRouge (9 September 2020)

ycbm said:



			I've done 3 rehabs and none of them took anywhere near 6 months to be wtc  ridden sound.  They were dressage competition sound in 3 months for 2 and 4 months for a really bad one with terrible flat feet. 

Yes some take longer but Amber really doesn't sound like a severe case, she's already field soundto look at.
.
		
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Sorry I should have been more specific - I'm not saying that it takes 6 months for you to notice a difference. I was thinking more in terms of hoof growth and how long for the new growth to come through fully (or near enough), at which point you might consider the rehab "finished" (if that makes sense). 



Ambers Echo said:



			This is not what their website says! It says the horse should be clearly improved within 4 weeks and ready to go home to 'normal' livery set ups within 12 as they recognise that maintaining what they do is unrealistic. Your post reflects exactly what happens in those disappointing research  treatment trials. You start looking into it/implemting the protocol and then all the caveats come out and things are nowhere near as promising as they initially seem. I am going into it with full commitment and an open mind. But it is a trial. Just as the trad approach was a trial. I will do the 12 weeks and see what happens.

I really do appreiciate the advice though. Thanks for posting. Ir would not surprise me if the maintenance is much harder work than it looks on paper. But if those 12 weeks leave her sound that will be worth doing. But if she isn't I need to think again.
		
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Sorry, I think I have confused people. As i said above, I don't mean that it takes 6 months for you to notice an improvement. I was thinking more in terms of the horse growing in a new hoof capsule and you being able to consider the process "completed". Everything on the website is true, though obviously it differs for some horses - our chap was vastly improved within 4-6 weeks at Rockley and he was ready to come home after just over 3.5 months. But he was quite a complicated one and had very odd feet. But the work went on once we got him home, we couldn't just sit back and relax. I was mainly trying to illustrate to you why it might not be a more "popular" option or have had more studies done, not to say that it is ineffective. Our chap hasn't been lame in front for years (his diagnosis was navicular), though he had to be retired for other reasons.


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## SEL (9 September 2020)

milliepops said:



			I'd still MRI in your shoes. The not knowing what it was would eat me up.
		
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If the insurance would pay I'd have one on mine, but they won't and I'm paying quite large bills for the one with the breathing problem. 

I'll be interested to know how Amber gets on. My slight scepticism (whilst fully in the 'you have nothing to lose' camp) is having a 10yo lifetime barefoot mare in the field with navicular bone damage. Whether its a vet, a professional trimmer, a farrier or FB warriors everyone keeps telling me her feet look good. Still not sound though!

I wonder if the tracks at Rockley are such an integral part of them growing the 'right' hoof for them that it is impossible to replicate on a normal livery yard.

Might have to get some photos later and start a new thread. In the meantime I'm going to distract myself from spreadsheets & big vet bills by reading some of the links above.


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## Tiddlypom (9 September 2020)

milliepops said:



			I'd still MRI in your shoes. The not knowing what it was would eat me up.
		
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This was going to be the next stage for me, but my vet talked me out of it for the interim. The horse is not insured, though.

The MRI would have cost £1200, but vet proposed instead gel injections into fronts coffins (@ £720) plus a complete overhaul of her foot balance - her toes had been allowed to get much too long by the EPA fully qualified/registered barefoot trimmer. A farrier got them back on track.

Going well so far...

If insured, then defo go for the MRI, though.


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## Ambers Echo (9 September 2020)

Nope not insured. After maxing out insurance on Max & Ginny, the premiums were impossible. I have savings for vets bills instead.


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## Michen (9 September 2020)

I’d still want an MRI to rule out something like a keratoma TBH.


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## FestiveFuzz (9 September 2020)

I lost my youngster to a DDFT injury so I know only too well the absolute rollercoaster of emotion that comes with rehabbing that type of injury. In your shoes I would absolutely push ahead with having an MRI so you're clear on exactly what you're dealing with. I still remember taking my youngster up to the RVC for a second opinion and being told she was the soundest chronically broken horse they'd ever seen, she was showing about 1/10 lame despite an acute tear with a fairly bleak prognosis. We lost her a few weeks later to a secondary SDFT tear which combined with the original injury meant there was literally no hope of us ever even getting her field sound.


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## SEL (9 September 2020)

Tiddlypom said:



			The MRI would have cost £1200, but vet proposed instead gel injections into fronts coffins (@ £720) plus a complete overhaul of her foot balance - her toes had been allowed to get much too long by the EPA fully qualified/registered barefoot trimmer. A farrier got them back on track.

Going well so far...

If insured, then defo go for the MRI, though.
		
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Did you have the gel into the coffin joints because that's where problems showed up on x ray?


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## Tiddlypom (9 September 2020)

SEL said:



			Did you have the gel into the coffin joints because that's where problems showed up on x ray?
		
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There was some low grade inflammation around the coffin joint showing on x ray, which the vet believed was caused by the long toe/low heel hoof balance that the barefoot trimmer had got her into. This inflammation had come on since her previous x rays a year before, when her foot balance was much better and she was in shoes.

Vet also thought that the gel injections would help to settle down other residual inflammation within the foot - vet does not believe that horse has a serious injury within the foot.

If horse didn’t respond to this, then an MRI would be the logical next step. Vet seems to be even keener to save me money than I am! Her take was that I could spend my £1200 on the MRI, but that would not include any therapeutic treatment, so we agreed to try the less spendy/more therapeutic gel injections/better foot balance first.


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## SEL (9 September 2020)

Thanks - I've been impressed with how well gel injections in the hocks turned out so may mention that to vet. They've suggested a steroid jab but I'm not sure at the moment


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## Tiddlypom (9 September 2020)

Just to add that the mare is getting very fed up with veterinary interventions. She will just about cope with sedation and then having joint medications or x rays/scans, but nerve blocks while compos mentis are out. 

I am hoping not to have to travel her to horsepital again.

Sorry, AE, for thread diversion.


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## tristar (9 September 2020)

if a horse was lame my 100 per cent priority  would be diagnoses, if only to rule out  injuries or diag disease, to avoid further injury,and start management of same, before altering hoof capsule, then consider what action to take.


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## Red-1 (9 September 2020)

I have taken 3 barefoot, not necessarily because they had problems (in 2 cases they did - 1 in the foot and 1 injured suspensory; one did not have any physical issues at all) and not permanently.

I had them working at BD and one at BS too, without shoes, as well as hacking 3 X a week.

I start with a couple of weeks for the foot to simply relax, no trimming other than any ragged edges. Then start with 100yds in hand on the roads, barefoot. If you have to boot to get them comfortable onto the road then do, but they should be OK on the actual tarmac.

I then increase by 100m whenever I feel it is right. Not every day.

As soon as they are road walking, I start to wave a rasp at them. Just to tidy up. It seems to become apparent what work needs doing as soon as you start to road walk.

I would keep road walking in-hand until you are doing 40 minutes or so comfortably. After that, I would maybe do a shorter ride under saddle. I found riding them really affected them when they are not yet strong in their feet, they can really feel it. Sometimes I would do part of the outing under saddle but with boots, then dismount, pull the boots and lead home.

The one that was bang sound (the mare I have just sold) but had shoes removed because I was busy with mum's illness, she was the one who never needed boots at all. Probably because everything was already working 100%. She simply increased her work, and after 4 months was even sound on hard core car parks when she was out competing. When mum took a turn for the worse, she went to a friend's where to get anywhere there was a 100yd hard core track, and she was fine.

The other two looked fabulous, but took longer to feel OK on uneven ground. They were the ones who had boots for car parks and for part of the ride. They took 6 months to do longer tarmac rides, and one was never 100% comfortable on hard core. I think it is because he already had foot issues. I didn't MRI, we nerve blocked to the source and gave a steroid injection in there as the vet thought that would likely be the treatment whatever the MRI showed. He had been lame before I owned him, but after a long rest was OK, but after I got him and took him eventing, the slight 'offness' came back. Hence steroid, barefoot rehab, return to more limited workload, never evented again. Not that he wasn't sound to, just that I thought if he did, he would not stay sound. For his benefit, I decided he was semi retired.

I had them on very clean beds, did a Cleantrax soak, bought some pea gravel for the drive so the soles had some abrasion every day, turned out on an arena that had large chunks of rubber too. All 3 were over winter, so not too much grass when they were out, plus no rock hard uneven ground. All 3 came off any hard feed, bar a little chop for the foot supplement from Progressive Earth, or in the mare's case she was rock hard so had Formula 4 feet as a hand treat.

Personally I would prefer to know what is wrong, but if you take it slow, the horse is having a form of rehab anyway. I would avoid the circles where she isn't sound altogether and only do stuff where she is bang sound. I did photo the feet and video the flight every month.

Good luck!


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## Bernster (10 September 2020)

Tiddlypom said:



			Just to add that the mare is getting very fed up with veterinary interventions. She will just about cope with sedation and then having joint medications or x rays/scans, but nerve blocks while compos mentis are out.

I am hoping not to have to travel her to horsepital again.

Sorry, AE, for thread diversion.
		
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slight derail but mine got sent back from RVC yesterday having point blank said no to any more nerve blocks.  Did 1, realised what it was (needles) then said NOPE.


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## SEL (10 September 2020)

Bernster said:



			slight derail but mine got sent back from RVC yesterday having point blank said no to any more nerve blocks.  Did 1, realised what it was (needles) then said NOPE.
		
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Can't nerve block mine either - in fact can't flexion test any longer either as poor Rob Jackson found out when he tried to do an adjustment with her a few months ago. Too much fiddling and now she says NOPE loudly.


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## oldie48 (10 September 2020)

I can't advise you on barefoot rehab but I can give you a success story! Friend's adv eventer lost her enthusiasm for XC, started to stop and also was a bit unco-operative on the flat. Not obviously lame and owner is a vet but later diagnosed with DDFT. Owner decided on rest, put her into foal in the spring and has a lovely filly from her. Now back out competing and doing well. They didn't go down the barefoot route, use the same farrier as I do so I'm confident there wasn't a foot balance issue, the injury was "just one of those unfortunate things". Good luck, it must be such a worry for you.


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## Ambers Echo (2 October 2020)

Finally got a date through for the MRI. Friday 16th October. Better late than never! Nervous, but also looking forward to finally knowing exactly what we are dealing with.


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## racebuddy (2 October 2020)

EVERYTHING CROSSEED FOR U XX


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## Ambers Echo (2 October 2020)

racebuddy said:



			EVERYTHING CROSSEED FOR U XX
		
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Thank-you. My worst outcome would be an inconclusive finding. She's been not right for over a year, assuming the initial September injury was the start of it all. So I am not optimistic really. But one way or another, I want an answer.


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## DressageCob (2 October 2020)

Good luck with the MRI. I hope, firstly, that you get answers and also that the answer is something fixable. Everything crossed for you.


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## Red-1 (2 October 2020)

Good luck!


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## racebuddy (9 October 2020)

let us know the results of the mri scan


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## Ambers Echo (9 October 2020)

Will do but it's not till next Friday x


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## Ambers Echo (16 October 2020)

So she's had it done but no feeback for about 5 days! Arggghhh. Leahurst gave same day feedback so that's quite frustrating. And even then they will send a report to my vet rather than phone me. Waiting game goes on....... But at least it's done now and went fine.


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## Roxylola (16 October 2020)

Oh gosh that is so disappointing when you were all psyched up for today. Really hope you get some good news x


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## DressageCob (16 October 2020)

Oh that is painful! You get yourself geared up for news, good or bad, and still don't get it. I bet the next 5 days will drag. 

Fingers crossed for good news when you finally do hear.


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## piglet2001 (16 October 2020)

That’s awful service. I have always had a verbal report on the same day and a full written report within two days. In fact last time I had xrays, mri and joints medicated within 5 hrs. It wasn’t even a planned MRI so the vets had to wait an 1hr for the insurance company to approve it. I feel really sorry for you, it just strings it out and if you need treatment you have to go back again!


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## Reacher (17 October 2020)

That’s rubbish - Can they not even give a verbal report to the vet before then?


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## Ambers Echo (23 October 2020)

MRI bad news. Navicular bone looked ok on xray but not on MRI. Vets do not consider a return to work realistic - apart from low level hacking maybe - and are offering no treatment options. I expected bad new given no improvement after so long but was not expecting them to be so gloomy or so final in their assessment.  Stunned and heart broken.


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## ycbm (23 October 2020)

Oh AE, I am so sorry,  that is such a shock.


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## Red-1 (23 October 2020)

Ouch, I am so sorry. X


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## The Fuzzy Furry (23 October 2020)

Oh no! V sorry to read this x


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## milliepops (23 October 2020)

sorry it wasn't better news


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## TPO (23 October 2020)

Sorry it was bad news


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## Pearlsasinger (23 October 2020)

milliepops said:



			sorry it wasn't better news 

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Oh no! I am sorry.


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## Ambers Echo (23 October 2020)

Just want to say Toby was awesome. Vet rang while I was schooling. I stopped, dropped reins, grabbed phone and talked to vet for at least 20 minutes and Toby never moved a muscle. Then at the end of the call I burst into tears and hugged him and he stayed stood like a rock. And after a while I got off and led him back to the stable. Once in there he ignored his hay and just gently snuffled my hair. How do they know? Horses are such beautiful souls.


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## Red-1 (23 October 2020)

Ambers Echo said:



			Just want to say Toby was awesome. Vet rang while I was schooling. I stopped, dropped reins, grabbed phone and talked to vet for at least 20 minutes and Toby never moved a muscle. Then at the end of the call I burst into tears and hugged him and he stayed stood like a rock. And after a while I got off and led him back to the stable. Once in there he ignored his hay and just gently snuffled my hair. How do they know? Horses are such beautiful souls.
		
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Sounds like he is a keeper after all of this.


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## Baywonder (23 October 2020)

I am so sorry it wasn't better news from the vet.  At least Toby is looking out for you - he really does sound like a lovely boy.


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## splashgirl45 (23 October 2020)

so sorry AE,  you dont deserve that......at least you know you still have toby although it doesnt stop the heartbreak of the bad news....hugs xxxxx


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## Amymay (23 October 2020)

Sorry that it’s not better news. But at least now you do know what’s going on and can retire her knowing what the diagnosis is.


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## shortstuff99 (23 October 2020)

I'm very sorry to hear this, how devastating. I'm glad Toby was there for you.


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## southerncomfort (23 October 2020)

Rubbish news. ☹


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## Mule (23 October 2020)

I'm sorry, that's an awful shock x


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## Ambers Echo (23 October 2020)

What I dont understand is how a horse can have so much pathology in the navicular bone that vets have written her off and yet to be so subtly lame that you need a fairly detailed lameness assessment to even spot it? Just makes no sense.


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## Meredith (23 October 2020)

So sorry to hear this.
re Toby.  It is amazing how much empathy horses show isn’t it?


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## scats (23 October 2020)

So sorry AE, I was really hoping for better news for you.

I’m glad Toby was there for you xx


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## DressageCob (23 October 2020)

I’m gutted for you. I was really hopeful for better news.

horses are such troopers. Amazing how she masked that level of problem and was only subtly lame. 

I’m glad Toby is working out for you so well. I think you’ve been lucky there. Sounds like he is a lovely person, and not lacking in talent either!


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## Squeak (23 October 2020)

So sorry it wasn't better news


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## Bernster (23 October 2020)

This sucks. I assume they’ve thought of everything but yes it does sounds crappy that’s it’s so subtle but also so bad that she’s either retired or a light hack.

Its gutting as you have the certainty but it is such crummy news.  I’m sure you’ll be feeling very blue for quite a while but you’ve done the right thing by her.


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## Roxylola (23 October 2020)

Ambers Echo said:



			What I dont understand is how a horse can have so much pathology in the navicular bone that vets have written her off and yet to be so subtly lame that you need a fairly detailed lameness assessment to even spot it? Just makes no sense.
		
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First, I am so so sad to see your latest news. I can imagine how utterly devastated you must be. Assuming the above is not a hypothetical question, and I agree it's very odd, it crossed my mind reading it to check she definitely isnt bilaterally lame? The only other thing I can think is are the vets coming from the point of view of being sound as in fit to return to eventing? Because obviously the stresses on the feet and joints when jumping are obviously much greater than pottering about. I'm guessing though - not an expert


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## Ambers Echo (23 October 2020)

She's not bilaterally lame - she was blocked and when that foot was numb she was 100% sound and happy. 

The vet was assessing her ability to return to work- as in eventing. She could hack maybe if they medicate the joint or something.  But she wont stand up to 'work'. She's not much fun to hack really though.


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## shortstuff99 (23 October 2020)

I think they can just be good at hiding it, my old mare was perfectly sound looking but had started refusing jumps. Turned out her fetlock joint was a mess and she ended up needing an op and a few years off. 

Would a few years off and then re-asses be an option?


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## Roxylola (23 October 2020)

Yeah I thought after I posted that would have shown with nerve blocks. Would you consider a foal off her? I remember you saying you didnt exactly love hacking her 🙁


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## NinjaPony (23 October 2020)

I’m very very sorry. Found myself in this exact position nearly 10 years ago, and it was devastating. My mare was also only subtly lame, and it wasn’t until the mri that the extent of the damage was shown. She was in a very bad way internally but you wouldn’t have known it. It’s cruel and unfair and very difficult to accept. Take some time for yourself to process it all and get support if you need it.


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## SusieT (23 October 2020)

Well the question is - have you tried medicating the joint ? Or are the soft tissues torn also? As it is important to judge the horse not the images -


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## maya2008 (23 October 2020)

My arthritis/navicular mare never came back into work at all, but she was so lame it was treat her or shoot her. We treated, with the aim of field sound. She is still happy, several years later, nannying the young ones and enjoying her retirement. I wasn’t sure she would retire happily, she loved her work so much, but she has adjusted. I know you adore Amber - I just wanted to say that the daily cuddles are worth everything, and that you don’t have to lose ‘her’ even if you cannot ride her any more.


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## Ambers Echo (24 October 2020)

SusieT said:



			Well the question is - have you tried medicating the joint ? Or are the soft tissues torn also? As it is important to judge the horse not the images -
		
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The vets view was based on MRI along with clinical presentation and history. Ie lack of any improvement despite a long period out of work.


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## TPO (24 October 2020)

Ambers Echo said:



			The vets view was based on MRI along with clinical presentation and history. Ie lack of any improvement despite a long period out of work.
		
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Does she maybe need more movement than "turned away" provided? If it is "only" bone and no soft tissue involvement/degradation then would a "proper" barefoot rehab possibly work?

Do you have photos of her hooves shod and as they are now? I think I read that you pulled shoes to turn away but I have a habit of making stuff up in my head...

I'm not saying that this is what you should do but just it's an option that some vets (my old practice) have no interest or knowledge about and write it off completely. I'm also not saying to try every option. I imagine that everything is still very raw for you and it's hard to make decisions at times like this. Just, if it is "only" bone there may be some options worth pursuing if you decide that the right choice for you


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## Ambers Echo (24 October 2020)

There's tendon damage too. And some other issues that I can't remember/didn't really understand.  I need to get the report to process it. I have asked my vet about Rockey farm before and he was a bit dismissive which was disappointing.  But the vet who rang me yesterday was my 'other' vet - the other partner in the practice who I have used before too and knows Amber well. He was much more open about Rockley farm/barefoot rehab but felt the degree of damage and the desired outcome (ie more than just a light hack) were too far apart. 3 vets at Pool House were involved in reviewing the MRI too. So that's 5 who have given/agreed with a very poor prognosis. But people can be wrong! 

Re barefoot - she hasn't had 'proper' barefoot rehab but she was barefoot and managed as per the Feet First book to to BE90 until she fell SJ. She was in full work and at full competition fitness barefoot. She was only ever in shoes after that during the eventing season and barefoot the rest of the time. So I cant see how/why a track would do more than that really. I need to look more into it.

But you're right, it's too raw to make decisions. All options remain on the table from my point of view. But I need to just to take some time out before deciding what comes next.


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## Ambers Echo (24 October 2020)

ETA much as I was not a massive fan of hacking, I did do it and she could crunch stones for hours with no problems at all. As far as I can tell she had very good feet.


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## ycbm (24 October 2020)

Soft tissue injuries are probably more likely to be fixable with a barefoot rehab than bone issues. And if there are soft tissue injuries then there's no proof the bone is causing the issues unless it's very severely damaged.

The lack of improvement during turnout isn't necessarily indicative.  The last rehab I did was still landing toe first after turning away for several years.  With a structured program of hand walking on roads he was heel first in weeks and sound to ride.  He turned out to be a compete mental lunatic,  but that's another issue!

It does seem that there's an awful lot of damage from what the vets are saying,  but if you have the money and adore the horse,  I'd still see what Rockley or another track livery with proper surfaces might achieve in 3 months.  

I'm so sorry it wasn't better news AE. It's always been clear how much you adore her.


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## AShetlandBitMeOnce (24 October 2020)

Ambers Echo said:



			What I dont understand is how a horse can have so much pathology in the navicular bone that vets have written her off and yet to be so subtly lame that you need a fairly detailed lameness assessment to even spot it? Just makes no sense.
		
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I’m so sorry to read about the bad news AE, look after yourself! 

In response to the above quote, my previous 6 year old was given almost an identical diagnosis as Amber, extensive changes, soft tissue damage and no return to work, however was only ever 1-2/10ths lame at the worst; I think this makes it all the more of a shock as you don’t think the results will be so damning.


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## Ambers Echo (24 October 2020)

ycbm said:



			Soft tissue injuries are probably more likely to be fixable with a barefoot rehab than bone issues. And if there are soft tissue injuries then there's no proof the bone is causing the issues unless it's very severely damaged.
		
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Vet said there were several issues of variable relevance found. He said that was the problem with an MRI - a lot of incidental findings. But in his view the significant pathology was the dasmage to the navicular bone. The tendon was 'some localised issues' but the bone was the main problem. Maybe that is why he was less than optimisitc about barefoot rehab? He seemed well disposed in general to it but not in this case.


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## Ambers Echo (24 October 2020)

Thank for all the replies, everyone. It is nice to know people were rooting for Amber. x


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## TPO (24 October 2020)

AShetlandBitMeOnce said:



			I’m so sorry to read about the bad news AE, look after yourself!

In response to the above quote, my previous 6 year old was given almost an identical diagnosis as Amber, extensive changes, soft tissue damage and no return to work, however was only ever 1-2/10ths lame at the worst; I think this makes it all the more of a shock as you don’t think the results will be so damning.
		
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Similarly I had vets to my horse for a very slight lameness and they both (the partners) told me I was imagining it. She was seen by a third vet at a second practice due to moving area for livery and went to vet hospital for a work up based on nonsense that vet came out with about spavins and KS. She got a clean bill of health from horspital March 2010.

Should also say at this point I contacted previous practice re third vet saying KS etc and they thought that little of my requests for them to watch her trot up that they had made no note or record of it at all.

I moved back to old yard and previous practice (yes I'm an idiot but these were "experts" at an equine practice). Had them back out June, took her into their clinic a week later for xrays and diagnosed with severe navic (could see the bones myself straight away on xray) that he told me would have been underlying at least 7mths. You know all those times I trotted her for them, for second practice and for vet school...

I asked about BF and was firmly told no, that it wouldnt work because her hoof balance isnt the issue. The only option they gave me was permanently denerving her or temp denerving with some sort of injection. I personally didnt agree with either option so pts to save her degrading and suffering more (working on the theory she was suffering as moving lamely despite having been a field ornament for this duration).

With hindsight I can see that vets were totally wrong as her hoof balance was awful. She had previously had surgery in a pastern; that hoof became smaller and upright and "good" hoof bigger and flatter. I dont have good enough photos to see if hooves were balanced to themselves, although I doubt it, but they definitely weren't balanced to each other.

I was using vet recommended farrier and even paid for vets to attend shoeing to ensure they were done correctly. I should point out mum bought an unvetted QH against my advice and she turned out to have navic and was doped at viewing. I tried bf after reading about it on here. This was 2009 so it was still an "out there" thing for weirdo hippies or cobs and natives only. At this point I moved to equine practice and they shut down BF straight away and told me to get eggbar wedges. Hence changing to their farrier and having them attend shoeings. As an aside that mare was pts crippled 5-6 months after putting her in wedges...

I am an idiot and I cant believe I let myself be blinded with "well broughtupness" to respect people like vets who know more than a pleb like me over my own eyes and gut. It still took me another 3yrs to leave them after that but that's another epic story about them screwing me in a different way.The penny clearly drops very slowly with me...

Anyway it was June 2010 I lost TPO to navic and I'm still consumed with guilt for listening to the vet. Made even worse because I posted on here about it an a long standing member tore absolute shreds off me and told me I'd killed her for no reason. I honestly wanted to die, I've never had losing a horse affect me as badly as TPO did, before or after, and still even writing this has me in floods of tears.

What I'm trying to say is I know how you feel about awful diagnoses and prognosis, I know about not having vet backing, I know about thinking you've already tried bf and I know about others online sharing unwanted opinions. To say it majorly sucks is an understatement.

I am genuinely so sorry to hear of the bad news you've received and I know whatever you decide it will be in Amber's best interest. TPO was my ginger girl and I know how they get under your skin and into your heart.

Please be kind to yourself too. $%*! happens and theres not always a reason for it.


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## Red-1 (24 October 2020)

TPO said:



			Similarly I had vets to my horse for a very slight lameness and they both (the partners) told me I was imagining it. She was seen by a third vet at a second practice due to moving area for livery and went to vet hospital for a work up based on nonsense that vet came out with about spavins and KS. She got a clean bill of health from horspital March 2010.

Should also say at this point I contacted previous practice re third vet saying KS etc and they thought that little of my requests for them to watch her trot up that they had made no note or record of it at all.

I moved back to old yard and previous practice (yes I'm an idiot but these were "experts" at an equine practice). Had them back out June, took her into their clinic a week later for xrays and diagnosed with severe navic (could see the bones myself straight away on xray) that he told me would have been underlying at least 7mths. You know all those times I trotted her for them, for second practice and for vet school...

I asked about BF and was firmly told no, that it wouldnt work because her hoof balance isnt the issue. The only option they gave me was permanently denerving her or temp denerving with some sort of injection. I personally didnt agree with either option so pts to save her degrading and suffering more (working on the theory she was suffering as moving lamely despite having been a field ornament for this duration).

With hindsight I can see that vets were totally wrong as her hoof balance was awful. She had previously had surgery in a pastern; that hoof became smaller and upright and "good" hoof bigger and flatter. I dont have good enough photos to see if hooves were balanced to themselves, although I doubt it, but they definitely weren't balanced to each other.

I was using vet recommended farrier and even paid for vets to attend shoeing to ensure they were done correctly. I should point out mum bought an unvetted QH against my advice and she turned out to have navic and was doped at viewing. I tried bf after reading about it on here. This was 2009 so it was still an "out there" thing for weirdo hippies or cobs and natives only. At this point I moved to equine practice and they shut down BF straight away and told me to get eggbar wedges. Hence changing to their farrier and having them attend shoeings. As an aside that mare was pts crippled 5-6 months after putting her in wedges...

I am an idiot and I cant believe I let myself be blinded with "well broughtupness" to respect people like vets who know more than a pleb like me over my own eyes and gut. It still took me another 3yrs to leave them after that but that's another epic story about them screwing me in a different way.The penny clearly drops very slowly with me...

Anyway it was June 2010 I lost TPO to navic and I'm still consumed with guilt for listening to the vet. Made even worse because I posted on here about it an a long standing member tore absolute shreds off me and told me I'd killed her for no reason. I honestly wanted to die, I've never had losing a horse affect me as badly as TPO did, before or after, and still even writing this has me in floods of tears.

What I'm trying to say is I know how you feel about awful diagnoses and prognosis, I know about not having vet backing, I know about thinking you've already tried bf and I know about others online sharing unwanted opinions. To say it majorly sucks is an understatement.

I am genuinely so sorry to hear of the bad news you've received and I know whatever you decide it will be in Amber's best interest. TPO was my ginger girl and I know how they get under your skin and into your heart.

Please be kind to yourself too. $%*! happens and theres not always a reason for it.
		
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Please don't beat yourself up, it sounds like you did everything you could do. If you had gone against the vet, people would have had something to say about that too.

I have posted about Rigsby, he is new to me and I fully accept he is not perfect and may be temporary (although I hope not). With Jay-Man, my heart horse, I didn't post about PTS until well after. I simply couldn't have managed any negative criticism at all.

There is one other horse that was only here a day, it is still too upsetting to talk about.

That is why, when someone PTS a horse, I agree with them. It doesn't matter what I think about it, if an owner has made that decision, then I agree with them. They are the owner, their horse, their decision, I agree with them. Even the three foals that is subject to another thread, I don't suppose the stud enjoyed that day, so, whatever I think, I agree with them.

Some things simply shouldn't be criticised.

I am really sorry that someone did that to you. Especially after the event. What on earth were they hoping to achieve? I suspect their comments say more about them than you and your situation.


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## Ambers Echo (24 October 2020)

I'm so sorry TPO. Thankfully PTS is not even remotely on the radar in this situation as she is field sound. Vet was able to reassure me that as she was playful and active in the field she had clearly found ways to move that didn't hurt. I am not sure of the longer term prognosis. I was reeling from the info I was being given as it is so I dod not ask about deterioration over time etc. ONly about whether she was in pain day to day now. I assumed not but wanted to check.


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## ITPersonnage (24 October 2020)

My ginger girl also had a navicular diagnosis but not from MRI, just X-rays. I suspect the damage on AE's bone is worse than my girls, she had Tildren and it did seem to help, but I'm no vet so I'm sure yours would recommend if appropriate. I'm just so sorry about the horrors you are going through, they break your heart don't they.


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## Caol Ila (24 October 2020)

So sorry to read this. I know how much Amber means to you. It's really good you have Toby, but it still sucks.

I've known many navicular horses (it's rife in quarter horses, and at an American barn where there are lots of them, you see tons of it) who do alright as bimbly hackers, but that only works if the horse is a pleasant, bimbly hack and not an adrenaline junkie.


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## SEL (24 October 2020)

Ambers Echo said:



			I'm so sorry TPO. Thankfully PTS is not even remotely on the radar in this situation as she is field sound. Vet was able to reassure me that as she was playful and active in the field she had clearly found ways to move that didn't hurt. I am not sure of the longer term prognosis. I was reeling from the info I was being given as it is so I dod not ask about deterioration over time etc. ONly about whether she was in pain day to day now. I assumed not but wanted to check.
		
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Oh gosh I'm so sorry - only just seen this update. You've had rotten luck over the past few years. I've only had navicular damage show in x ray so far (bit of a ££ shortage for MRI ) but mine is also field sound so just seeing how she goes. Never shod so that didn't cause it.

**hugs**


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## Mule (24 October 2020)

TPO said:



			Similarly I had vets to my horse for a very slight lameness and they both (the partners) told me I was imagining it. She was seen by a third vet at a second practice due to moving area for livery and went to vet hospital for a work up based on nonsense that vet came out with about spavins and KS. She got a clean bill of health from horspital March 2010.

Should also say at this point I contacted previous practice re third vet saying KS etc and they thought that little of my requests for them to watch her trot up that they had made no note or record of it at all.

I moved back to old yard and previous practice (yes I'm an idiot but these were "experts" at an equine practice). Had them back out June, took her into their clinic a week later for xrays and diagnosed with severe navic (could see the bones myself straight away on xray) that he told me would have been underlying at least 7mths. You know all those times I trotted her for them, for second practice and for vet school...

I asked about BF and was firmly told no, that it wouldnt work because her hoof balance isnt the issue. The only option they gave me was permanently denerving her or temp denerving with some sort of injection. I personally didnt agree with either option so pts to save her degrading and suffering more (working on the theory she was suffering as moving lamely despite having been a field ornament for this duration).

With hindsight I can see that vets were totally wrong as her hoof balance was awful. She had previously had surgery in a pastern; that hoof became smaller and upright and "good" hoof bigger and flatter. I dont have good enough photos to see if hooves were balanced to themselves, although I doubt it, but they definitely weren't balanced to each other.

I was using vet recommended farrier and even paid for vets to attend shoeing to ensure they were done correctly. I should point out mum bought an unvetted QH against my advice and she turned out to have navic and was doped at viewing. I tried bf after reading about it on here. This was 2009 so it was still an "out there" thing for weirdo hippies or cobs and natives only. At this point I moved to equine practice and they shut down BF straight away and told me to get eggbar wedges. Hence changing to their farrier and having them attend shoeings. As an aside that mare was pts crippled 5-6 months after putting her in wedges...

I am an idiot and I cant believe I let myself be blinded with "well broughtupness" to respect people like vets who know more than a pleb like me over my own eyes and gut. It still took me another 3yrs to leave them after that but that's another epic story about them screwing me in a different way.The penny clearly drops very slowly with me...

Anyway it was June 2010 I lost TPO to navic and I'm still consumed with guilt for listening to the vet. Made even worse because I posted on here about it an a long standing member tore absolute shreds off me and told me I'd killed her for no reason. I honestly wanted to die, I've never had losing a horse affect me as badly as TPO did, before or after, and still even writing this has me in floods of tears.

What I'm trying to say is I know how you feel about awful diagnoses and prognosis, I know about not having vet backing, I know about thinking you've already tried bf and I know about others online sharing unwanted opinions. To say it majorly sucks is an understatement.

I am genuinely so sorry to hear of the bad news you've received and I know whatever you decide it will be in Amber's best interest. TPO was my ginger girl and I know how they get under your skin and into your heart.

Please be kind to yourself too. $%*! happens and theres not always a reason for it.
		
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It was normal to trust the vet and 99.9% of times it's right to do so, I wouldn't blame yourself for that. There's also no way of knowing that barefoot would have worked. I'm a big fan of it. Being without shoes improved the beast's hooves enormously but I previously had a mare who was never shod in her life and she developed navicular. It also occurs in feral horse, sometimes it just happens.


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## oldie48 (24 October 2020)

So sorry to hear your news, sending a big hug. x


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## Coblover63 (24 October 2020)

Just seen your FB post so dashed here for the update.  I'm so very sorry that things have turned out to be so grim for Amber.  And thank goodness Toby has a good neck to cry into. Hugs xxx


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## EventingMum (24 October 2020)

So sorry, I have nothing useful to add in terms of a way forward. It's very hard to formulate a plan when you are still processing things and, as we all know, what works for one doesn't necessarily suit another. Personally, I tend to think if we can't trust specialist vets then who can we trust? But of course, unexpected things can happen in terms of recovery and future performance. The important thing is that whatever you do, you are happy (as can be) with your decision and Amber is happy too. I'm so glad you have Toby just now, he was meant to be!


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## Michen (25 October 2020)

Oh no I’m so sorry AE. 

But, somehow I think you’ll be the pair to beat the odds, and in your situation I would absolutely sent to Rockley as one last thing to try.


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## KEK (25 October 2020)

So sorry to read this, how devastating


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## Ambers Echo (25 October 2020)

Michen said:



			Oh no I’m so sorry AE.

But, somehow I think you’ll be the pair to beat the odds, and in your situation I would absolutely sent to Rockley as one last thing to try.
		
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I have thought about sending the MRI report to Nik but I'm taking a bit of time before making any decisions. Though I HAVE decided I'm never jumping her again. From everything I've read and been told, navicular involving significant pathology in the bone is a progressive condition that can't be cured, only managed. Barefoot Rockley style management is looking promising but I  want as many more years as possible with her and so have decided to retire her. I could (and might) hack her a bit. But I won't try to bring her back into work with the aim of eventing her again.


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## Skib (25 October 2020)

I am so sorry both for Amber and for you.  Just read the whole update with a sinking  heart. Yet so glad you have Toby too.


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## ycbm (25 October 2020)

Ambers Echo said:



			From everything I've read and been told, navicular involving significant pathology in the bone is a progressive condition that can't be cured, only managed..
		
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Unfortunately I think the origional x rays were on film and degraded,  but at one point Nic had x rays showing that the bone on her horse Ghost had remodelled, something which we are all told repeatedly is impossible.  I think there was one other horse as well.  And Ghost was doing cross country years after being written off by vets. That might all be on the blog,  I can't remember. 

It will depend a lot,  I think,  on why it happened.  If it was because of typical low heel long toe foot conformation and the low heel has been built back up and the long toe shortened,  then why should it be progressive? 

I don't want to raise false hopes,  AE, and there has to be a huge doubt over Amber, but please remember that many,  many people,  including me,  have rehabbed horses where vets and farriers told the owner to put the horse to sleep.  A trip to the vet for a last assessment and PTS was cancelled in order to bring a horse to me,  which then went on for years to hunt,  dressage and show. 
.


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## ycbm (25 October 2020)

Is Amber toe first landing AE?  If not, I think I might, in your shoes, admit defeat.  If she is,  then I think there is still a glimmer of hope.  

If she is toe first,  and you could just get her out walking on a flat tarmac road in hand for a month, an hour every other day if she is sound enough,  then you might know in a month whether there was any point in carrying on.


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## Michen (25 October 2020)

Sorry AE this is off topic but I wonder how professionals seem to succeed in keeping their horses sound and at the top of their game, and for us amateurs we are all just faced with constant heartbreak. The forum is just littered with stories of broken horses. 

All these 5 star eventers that seem to stay so sound and at that level- what’s their bloody secret 

I feel for you Ae this is a horrible situation but I am very glad you have a Toby.


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## cauda equina (25 October 2020)

Probably there's high wastage lower down the levels; only the super-tough horses make it to the top and we don't get to hear about all the ones that don't


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## ihatework (25 October 2020)

Michen said:



			Sorry AE this is off topic but I wonder how professionals seem to succeed in keeping their horses sound and at the top of their game, and for us amateurs we are all just faced with constant heartbreak. The forum is just littered with stories of broken horses.

All these 5 star eventers that seem to stay so sound and at that level- what’s their bloody secret 

I feel for you Ae this is a horrible situation but I am very glad you have a Toby.
		
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As a % of the competing horse population 5* horses are very very small. The wastage along the way is reasonably high, or perhaps not always wastage but riders get a feel for which horses will be sound enough to make it and which are better not pushed and moved on.

Of those at 5* a large number are very heavily managed vet wise to stay sound for the job. There are some real tough nuts too though!

That said, horses stand a much higher chance of staying sound for competition the better they are trained. Pros certainly aren’t perfect but on the whole they generally ride better than amateurs and can keep the horses, straighter, more supple, better muscled to optimise soundness.


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## HashRouge (25 October 2020)

Ambers Echo said:



			I have thought about sending the MRI report to Nik but I'm taking a bit of time before making any decisions. Though I HAVE decided I'm never jumping her again. From everything I've read and been told, navicular involving significant pathology in the bone is a progressive condition that can't be cured, only managed. Barefoot Rockley style management is looking promising but I  want as many more years as possible with her and so have decided to retire her. I could (and might) hack her a bit. But I won't try to bring her back into work with the aim of eventing her again.
		
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I would always recommend Nic, I think she's wonderful and I am certain she is the reason that my Welsh is field sound (he was at Rockley in 2012, also for navicular). I'd certainly recommend talking to her at the very least. But unfortunately I think that sometimes there is too much damage done for them to return to the level of work they were doing before (or even to any level of work, really!). Ours went to Rockley with navicular and did really, really well when he first came home. But unfortunately we weren't able to keep him in consistent work as he developed various other soundness issues. He is perfectly field sound, which I don't know if he would have been without going to Rockley for barefoot rehab, but sadly he just won't stand up to ridden work. But if it helps at all, barefoot rehab at Rockley followed by retirement means he had made it to 17 and I can't see any reason he won't be around in another 10 years!


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## paddi22 (25 October 2020)

would it be worth trying to rehab barefoot so at leats you could rule it out? I've one that has navicular, wedge shoes etc, and only became sound again when the shoes came off. I had written him off as a happy hacker, but on how he feels now I'm confident we can get back eventing in some shape or form.  

I enjoy rehabbing  project horses and I've had a few that on vet's reports looked like write off and vets were negative about them, but they just seemed to keep going and working for many more years and managing with various issues with no problem. all you can do is look honestly at the horse in front of you, sit on it and see how it feels, and just go with your gut sometimes.


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## Asha (26 October 2020)

So sorry AE, that really isnt fair.  Amber is very lucky though, as you will clearly do whats right for her.


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## jenniehodges2001 (26 October 2020)

ihatework said:



			A. Pros certainly aren’t perfect but on the whole they generally ride better than amateurs and can keep the horses, straighter, more supple, better muscled to optimise soundness.
		
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I agree. They also have super duper state of the art surfaces to ride on and their horses are constantly checked by physio therapists and are shod literally every four weeks.

I am sorry AE


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## lme (28 October 2020)

So sorry AE. Mine's got similar damage to Amber (we MRI'd in May). Was also considering Rockley but timing didn't work (she is in foal) and I don't plan to bring her back into work anyway unless it is going to help her. ATM she's happy out in a hilly field with a mare herd. She had an equine biomechanics specialist / bodyworker assess and work on her about 6 weeks ago and was sound and moving well. Current plan is to do as little as possible (other than regular trims / bodywork and let her enjoy being out. She's only 12 so there's no rush.


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## Ambers Echo (31 October 2020)

My own vet rang last night for a longer chat and to go through the report in more detail. There's quite a lot of 'niggly things' going on but the main issue is the navicular bone which he does not believe can recover but only be managed. He said by medicating the joint, using egg bars etc maybe we could get her sound enough so she could work again but he would advise only hacking which he feels would be fine as she can choose where to place her feet. If my primary concern is Amber's comfort he would not ride in an arena or jump.

I have thought and thought about that 'last throw of the dice' and sending her to Rockley. But I'm not going to. Horses cant talk. And they can be in pain a long time before it shows in lameness or even in behaviour. Max was declared 'sound' and ready to crack on by a rehab livery yard.  6 weeks later he reared over backwards. He seemed fine till then. After I broke my ankle,  Amber was being ridden by a pro who wanted to take her on to compete. She was definitely in pain then too. She scored her personal best in a dressage test the week before I got the vet out! That bone has been degraded for months.

So I know I could never be relaxed on her. I'd always be worried. If she bucked out of excitement I'd over analyse to death. Every time I rode I'd wonder about whether she was really ok.

I'm comfortable with the decision to let go and retire her. I dont want a happy hacker and so pursuing more treatments for an outcome I'm not that bothered about does not seem in either of our interests. She's field sound and perfectly happy.

I'm very sad that a wonderful chapter in my riding life is closing. It was a total privilege and joy to be sat on a horse like her. I wont ever find another! Thank you for the memories Gorgeous Girl.


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## scats (31 October 2020)

Sorry to hear this but it does sound like the best option.  The good thing is that you still have your lovely girl, and some fantastic memories x


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## Roxylola (31 October 2020)

I think I'd feel very much the same in your situation, it's so sad for you but the best thing for her


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## Ambers Echo (31 October 2020)

Michen said:



			Sorry AE this is off topic but I wonder how professionals seem to succeed in keeping their horses sound and at the top of their game, and for us amateurs we are all just faced with constant heartbreak. The forum is just littered with stories of broken horses.

All these 5 star eventers that seem to stay so sound and at that level- what’s their bloody secret .
		
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A friend's daughter worked as a groom on a top eventer's yard. She said the horses are all medically managed to quite a high degree. Anti inflammatories, injections, other drugs. All legal btw, but necessary to keep them sound. Amber is just a pet not a working animal or part of my livelihood. Ordinary horse owners don't go to those lengths just to ride.

The group that pee me off most are the amateur riders who don't care that their horses are lame and ride anyway. Sometimes it's ignorance and I am not the greatest at detecting lameness myself. But sometimes they know but don't care. One teenager on my old yard has been told multiple times to stop riding her pony. She stops for a day or 2 then declares him 'sound' again and just carries on. He refuses, broncs, bucks, naps. She doesn't care.


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## Amymay (31 October 2020)

I absolutely think you’ve made the right decision x


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## lme (31 October 2020)

Pretty much what everyone else had said.your reasons for not bringing Amber  back into work were similar to mine with My girl. I would always be worried she was in pain and not able to let me know. I think you are doing absolutely the right thing. And you still have Toby to ride.


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## splashgirl45 (31 October 2020)

a shame as she is such a lovely horse, but great that you are able to give her a good life in retirement.  i would have done the same.  good job you kept toby as you can have lots of fun with him but still have cuddles with amber..


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## Mule (31 October 2020)

Amber is very lucky to have you x


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## View (31 October 2020)

Ah, they are such heart breakers.

Glad you are able to retire her - lucky her for having found you.


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## Billyandme (31 October 2020)

So sorry xx


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## Odyssey (31 October 2020)

I'm so sorry to hear this, but I too think you've made the right decision. It must be so hard to have that chapter come to an end, though. Amber is a lucky horse to be owned by you. I'm glad that you've got gorgeous Toby, I think luck was at least on your side when you found him. 🙂


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## EventingMum (1 November 2020)

mule said:



			Amber is very lucky to have you x
		
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Absolutely this.


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## DabDab (1 November 2020)

So sorry AE, what heartbreaking news. She is a fabulous horse and you two were just such a great combination to read reports about. Here's hoping you have many happy times with her to come, whatever her ailment continues to do. Glad Toby continues to be a support for you at such a difficult time.

Horses are heartbreakers x


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