# Aggressive off lead dogs - wwyd?



## imperialbay (31 October 2020)

Long time reader, first time poster here...

I regularly walk my dogs on a public footpath through some fields. On Monday, I passed by a dog walker I haven’t seen before who was walking 4 Rottweilers. To cut a long story short, they were all off lead and the person walking them had no control over them. Cut to four growling Rottweilers in the faces of my two (on lead) small dogs. Apparently it was my fault that this happened due to not giving the person walking them enough time to get them back on their leads...Needless to say I was rather threatened by the whole thing.

I was about to go down this path again today when another walker advised me to go a different route due to these same four Rottweilers having just threatened her and her dog.

While these dogs haven’t yet bitten another dog, It’s not very pleasant to encounter four aggressive dogs with poor recall off lead. Does anyone know of anything that could be done about this? I doubt the dog warden would be interested because they haven’t actually done anything apart from growl at other dogs/owners. That said, they don’t appear to be under control and two of them seem to have had some sort of makeshift muzzles on.

Thank you! (Sorry for the essay!)


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## CorvusCorax (31 October 2020)

I reported off lead dogs to my dog warden, the only reason there wasn't a fight is because I held my dog away and roared at them.
DW was very helpful, asked for a description, said he would stop by the area.

I would use voice, body, whatever I had to hand (without getting flamed!!) to protect my dog. He's about 30kg, he avoids other dogs but if they get in his face he will attempt to defend himself
If their dog gets a negative experience, it's their problem, not mine, mine is under control, theirs isn't, it's their job to train them, not mine.


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## splashgirl45 (31 October 2020)

i would report  to the dog warden.  also who do the fields belong to and is everyone allowed to walk dogs there, may be worth finding out.  i would walk somewhere else, 4 rotties off lead and out of control could do a lot of damage , i wouldnt be brave enough to risk it..


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## Amymay (31 October 2020)

Report your concerns to the dog warden.


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## teddypops (31 October 2020)

Definitely report it. If the loose dogs are a concern to you (or anyone) and the owner doesn’t address these concerns, the dog warden will go and speak to them. I know this as there was a similar incident by my house involving a friend of my husband and a big loose dog. The owner of the loose dog was spoken to and it is now kept on a lead.


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## limestonelil (31 October 2020)

The dog warden will be very interested. Get it reported and encourage any others who are intimidated to do the same.


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## emilylou (31 October 2020)

Report it, carry a hunting whip when walking and use it on the dogs if they come close. Sorry. I have no mercy with this kind of thing. 
Had a similar problem with dogs on our farm, owner wasn’t happy but I said if you can’t control your dogs then I will. 
Funny, they soon learnt to keep them under control after that.


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## Amymay (31 October 2020)

Op, whilst I’m sure you wouldn’t be silly enough to do it, don’t confront these dogs with a hunting whip....


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## Pearlsasinger (31 October 2020)

Report to the dog warden


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## CorvusCorax (31 October 2020)

I carried a dressage whip for a while. Not to make contact but for the whooshy noise and to give the other owner a visual. I hope people realise the level of stress my dog and I were under, having been attacked several times, because of her rubbish ownership, to have to resort to that.

I have known of plenty of people walk with sticks that they don't actually need. Wouldn't be my cup of tea but having been stuck in the middle of two dogs, with the other owner miles away, I wouldn't blame an older or more vulberable person.


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## Goldenstar (31 October 2020)

My other half once dealt with a mad uncontrolled dog with a dressage whip he was on a horse though .


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## Bellasophia (31 October 2020)

You are talking about four Rottweilers,four.
If you were to show aggression to them  ,the results could be fatal for your dog ,or even you.I believe they would respond as a pack.
I would absolutely get the warden involved,this scenario would be explosive if triggered.
  My own dog ,st poodle in avatar,was attacked when he was 10 m by one offlead rottweiller.My husband was with me and it took us many minutes ,my husband kicking the dog,to get him off my dog. It was an unprovoked attack,the dog came across the park making a beeline for my on lead male dog.
I would also change your route until this is sorted .The dog walker sounds really casual in her duty and the next time could be more serious.


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## imperialbay (31 October 2020)

Thank you all. I will definitely get on to the dog warden and avoid that route for the foreseeable future.


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## GSD Woman (31 October 2020)

If the dog walker doesn't persuade the Rottie owner to do right would your dogs tolerate an air horn being blown?  That will stop a lot of dogs. Or, would pepper spray or a tazer be an option?


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## Sandstone1 (31 October 2020)

GSD Woman said:



			If the dog walker doesn't persuade the Rottie owner to do right would your dogs tolerate an air horn being blown?  That will stop a lot of dogs. Or, would pepper spray or a tazer be an option?
		
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OMG, A tazer, where on earth would you get one of those.


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## neddy man (31 October 2020)

Sandstone1 said:



			OMG, A tazer, where on earth would you get one of those.
		
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They are illegal in the UK (available from overseas via the internet)


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## GSD Woman (31 October 2020)

I don't know much about Tazers. They may be only available to law enforcement.  If not I'm sure a gun shop would carry them.  Life in the good ole USA.


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## imperialbay (31 October 2020)

GSD Woman said:



			If the dog walker doesn't persuade the Rottie owner to do right would your dogs tolerate an air horn being blown?  That will stop a lot of dogs. Or, would pepper spray or a tazer be an option?
		
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A tazer?! They’re definitely illegal in the UK. I think I’ll start by talking to the dog warden... An air horn might be a good idea if trouble persists though...


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## DirectorFury (1 November 2020)

**Disclaimer: I am not advocating this and it is *incredibly illegal *in the UK, with legal penalties on par with carrying an unlicensed handgun. **


Sandstone1 said:



			OMG, A tazer, where on earth would you get one of those.
		
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As well buying them off eBay (they’re advertised as cow movers or something daft), you can make them quite easily out of an old disposable camera.

Highly illegal and also not exactly practical if you can only taser one dog at a time when there’s 4 of them!

Pepper spray is also illegal in the UK.

Dog warden and avoiding that walking route is probably best, it sucks to “lose” a route because of other owners being irresponsible though .


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## {97702} (1 November 2020)

DirectorFury said:



			**Disclaimer: I am not advocating this and it is *incredibly illegal *in the UK, with legal penalties on par with carrying an unlicensed handgun. **

As well buying them off eBay (they’re advertised as cow movers or something daft), you can make them quite easily out of an old disposable camera.

Highly illegal and also not exactly practical if you can only taser one dog at a time when there’s 4 of them!

Pepper spray is also illegal in the UK.

Dog warden and avoiding that walking route is probably best, it sucks to “lose” a route because of other owners being irresponsible though .
		
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Now wondering how DF knows these things.... 😉😆😆


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## Clodagh (1 November 2020)

I would go somewhere else, after contacting the dog warden. When I lived in Australia an elderly woman was killed by a pack of rottweilers, the police were originally looking for a man with an axe, she was sp badly damaged. Sorry if TMI but it really was the most shocking thing I have ever heard and I have regarded Rotties with grave suspicion ever since. (And yes I know people on here have and love them - but the size of their heads!


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## DirectorFury (1 November 2020)

Levrier said:



			Now wondering how DF knows these things.... 😉😆😆
		
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There was a post on the UK legal advice subreddit (on Reddit) about it 😂. I have no tasers, homemade or otherwise!


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## YorksG (1 November 2020)

It's my understanding that pepper spray doesn't affect dogs.


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## CorvusCorax (1 November 2020)

There is an air spray that lets out compressed air with no noise. I'd worry an air horn would freak out your own dogs.
I remember recommending this years ago and someone misread and thought I was advocating covering other people's dogs in Silvikrin 😂😂😂


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## GSD Woman (1 November 2020)

If pepper spray won't work or is illegal, what about bear spray?


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## Sandstone1 (1 November 2020)

GSD Woman said:



			If pepper spray won't work or is illegal, what about bear spray?
		
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Not that many bears on the loose in uk, maybe you can get bear spray on Amazon!


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## skinnydipper (1 November 2020)

After one of my dogs suffered severe injuries (she lost 2 mouthfuls of muscle on her back) when she was the victim of an unprovoked attack, I bought a Petsafe SprayShield spray (citronella).

I used it when I witnessed a BRT x Giant Schnauzer attack another dog and then come for my gang.  I went in front of my dogs and sprayed it which gave the owner enough time to come and retrieve it.  That dog was _eventually_ euthanized but not before several dogs needed veterinary treatment and a JRT nearly died when it suffered injuries to its throat and its back was scalped

My GSD was attacked when he was on lead by an out of control dog with an owner on his phone.  The dog ran at him and I had no time to get the spray out of my pocket.  It would have ended badly had my husband not been with me, I restrained the big lad and OH hauled the lab back to its owner.

There is a warning on the SprayShield can:  "May not stop all animals.  SprayShield is very effective in stopping low to medium level aggression.  However, a small percentage of dogs are so strongly motivated that no known spray deterrent is effective - physical restraint is the only way to stop an attack from these animals."

This spray might be more effective than the citronella spray.  Bear in mind you need time to access the spray and, if its like the citronella spray, you also need to shake it before use.

BiteBack spray.

"Formerly known as BiteBack, K917 is a deterrent spray for formulated specifically canines, it comes in an compact 50ml hand held aerosol spray. It works by creating a vapour cloud around the dog's muzzle, masking the air with the smell and taste of their special formulation. The unique blend of natural oils deters the dog's natural impulse to bite. Most importantly unlike traditional pepper sprays which can prove lethal to dogs, K917 has absolutely no lasting effects and typically after 10 -20 minutes the dog will make a full recovery."

https://www.police-supplies.co.uk/k917-dog-deterrent-spray


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## imperialbay (1 November 2020)

skinnydipper said:



			After one of my dogs suffered severe injuries (she lost 2 mouthfuls of muscle on her back) when she was the victim of an unprovoked attack, I bought a Petsafe SprayShield spray (citronella).

I used it when I witnessed a BRT x Giant Schnauzer attack another dog and then come for my gang.  I went in front of my dogs and sprayed it which gave the owner enough time to come and retrieve it.  That dog was _eventually_ euthanized but not before several dogs needed veterinary treatment and a JRT nearly died when it suffered injuries to its throat and its back was scalped

My GSD was attacked when he was on lead by an out of control dog with an owner on his phone.  The dog ran at him and I had no time to get the spray out of my pocket.  It would have ended badly had my husband not been with me, I restrained the big lad and OH hauled the lab back to its owner.

There is a warning on the SprayShield can:  "May not stop all animals.  SprayShield is very effective in stopping low to medium level aggression.  However, a small percentage of dogs are so strongly motivated that no known spray deterrent is effective - physical restraint is the only way to stop an attack from these animals."

This spray might be more effective than the citronella spray.  Bear in mind you need time to access the spray and, if its like the citronella spray, you also need to shake it before use.

BiteBack spray.

"Formerly known as BiteBack, K917 is a deterrent spray for formulated specifically canines, it comes in an compact 50ml hand held aerosol spray. It works by creating a vapour cloud around the dog's muzzle, masking the air with the smell and taste of their special formulation. The unique blend of natural oils deters the dog's natural impulse to bite. Most importantly unlike traditional pepper sprays which can prove lethal to dogs, K917 has absolutely no lasting effects and typically after 10 -20 minutes the dog will make a full recovery."

https://www.police-supplies.co.uk/k917-dog-deterrent-spray

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Thank you very much. I didn’t know something like this existed. I’ll definitely order some just in case.


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## Cinnamontoast (1 November 2020)

That would be carnage in my case. I’m very careful to avoid bouncy untrained off lead dogs. Rottweilers (don’t kill me, PaS!) are one of the few breeds that worry me-Akita’s are another.


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## CorvusCorax (1 November 2020)

I love Rotts but it was a humongous Rott cross (and variously someone else's Labradoodles, a Springer X and a chocolate lab...) that gave me the most grief.


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## Pearlsasinger (1 November 2020)

Cinnamontoast said:



			That would be carnage in my case. I’m very careful to avoid bouncy untrained off lead dogs. Rottweilers (don’t kill me, PaS!) are one of the few breeds that worry me-Akita’s are another.
		
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It's Rottweiler owners that worry me tbh.  Ours is never off lead when off our property, except in a secure dog field.  
We were at Bramham one year with our 2 who would be 3 or 4 yrs old and an idiotic woman approached us, with her Rott, asking if she  could talk to our dogs, saying that hers was funny about other dogs but fine with Rottweilers.  The bloody thing got between its owner and our dogs and went for our reactive one.  Who reacted!  Sister fortunately reacted just as quickly and hauled her away, although one of her leads broke and we had to buy another one asap.  Stupid woman didn't even apologise and actually I was left speechless, that anyone could be so idiotic!  Fortunately our Rott didn't take against all other dogs after that but has remained her usual dog-neutral self, even now when she has 'her' pups with her.


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## maisie06 (8 November 2020)

imperialbay said:



			Long time reader, first time poster here...

I regularly walk my dogs on a public footpath through some fields. On Monday, I passed by a dog walker I haven’t seen before who was walking 4 Rottweilers. To cut a long story short, they were all off lead and the person walking them had no control over them. Cut to four growling Rottweilers in the faces of my two (on lead) small dogs. Apparently it was my fault that this happened due to not giving the person walking them enough time to get them back on their leads...Needless to say I was rather threatened by the whole thing.

I was about to go down this path again today when another walker advised me to go a different route due to these same four Rottweilers having just threatened her and her dog.

While these dogs haven’t yet bitten another dog, It’s not very pleasant to encounter four aggressive dogs with poor recall off lead. Does anyone know of anything that could be done about this? I doubt the dog warden would be interested because they haven’t actually done anything apart from growl at other dogs/owners. That said, they don’t appear to be under control and two of them seem to have had some sort of makeshift muzzles on.

Thank you! (Sorry for the essay!)
		
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If I am going where I'm likely to meet off lead agressive dogs - lots of badlly controlled bully breeds where I live I carry a can of hairspray and wear my steel toe caps....


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## fiwen30 (8 November 2020)

My granny carried a stout, knobbly, blackthorn walking stick when out with the dogs. She was sprightly as a fawn, but that stick still got used a fair few times.


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## Moobli (9 November 2020)

Four growling Rotts with a lackadaisical owner would worry me enough to avoid that route for the foreseeable future and definitely report to the dog warden.  DDA legislation makes it an offence if a person is worried or afraid (the term is 'reasonable apprehension') that a dog may bite them so I’d use that to press home the seriousness to the dog warden.

An attack by four large breed dogs like that just does not bear thinking about.


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## MrsMozart (11 November 2020)

I have two Rotties. I stopped walking them together when they grew strong enough for me not to be able to physically hold them both back at the same time. I now walk one with a GSD, who responds to voice at the drop of a hat, and one with the JRT, who is small enough to be hoiked if the need should arise. 

My Rotties are pretty well trained, but I won't have them out together, unless D is with me, or off-lead unless I'm very sure of our surroundings. They've never shown aggression, but they're big, powerful, and protective. The potential for something to go wrong just isn't worth the risk. 

Interestingly they like to play chase with the horses, from the other side of the fence. Titch will often get them going on purpose then stop dead and eat.

Sorry, I digressed. OP I hope you find a satisfactory and safe conclusion.


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## Ranyhyn (11 November 2020)

Yeah this is one situation where I wouldn't be prepared to risk myself, or my dog.  Report them, and walk somewhere else.

I feel with a big dog you have a huge responsibility to make everyone else feel safer not less safe around it.  I rarely let my large male GSD off in public and he's hugely sociable and friendly but a) he's too dangerous if he does go off and b) he frightens some people and dogs just because of his breed.

We were approached by a tiny patterdale puppy by mutual agreement the other day while out canicrossing and they had a lovely meeting. But it should always be by mutual agreement, you dont force your dog on anyone else. Espescially if they are a humungadog.


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## CouldItBe (11 November 2020)

German Shepard’s are the ones I avoid at all costs. My terriers have been attacked by a German Shepard twice. Both times mine were on lead and trotting along quietly by my side. My sister has a 8 month old Portuguese Water Dog who is huge and very well trained, but she is extremely bouncy and can upset some people so my sis is very careful with her. I walk my lot away from everyone if possible, just not worth the trouble with mixing with others, I do the boys on one walk and the girls on another, so a group of 3 and a pair


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## GSD Woman (12 November 2020)

I thought of this thread on Sunday when my 2 GSDs were charged by 2 off lead Goldens with the owner nowhere in sight. It ended without bloodshed but it could have gone very badly.


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## yhanni (19 November 2020)

There's some spray on Amazon that's extremely effective & very pungent - called K9. It smells strongly of cloves but apart from being expensive, it does no lasting harm. Certainly stops the EBT in her tracks if she goes for the mastiff - we usually just have to show her the can and she stops. Its small enough to have in a pocket and I wouldn't hesitate to use it on a dog … or a person, if it came down to it!


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## Adele2003 (25 March 2021)

Aren't rottweilers and other certain breeds supposed to wear muzzles out in public by law ?


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## Pearlsasinger (25 March 2021)

Adele2003 said:



			Aren't rottweilers and other certain breeds supposed to wear muzzles out in public by law ?
		
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Not in UK


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## Michen (25 March 2021)

In Ireland. Frankly they should. The posts where owners have to be worried they can’t physically restrain their dogs, as if they would need to, make me really concerned tbh.

If you know that you may need to physically restrain your dog for the safety of others, what happens if you trip/fall etc. I think any dog where you don’t feel comfortable and completely sure that it will not be aggressive should be muzzled.


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## Roasted Chestnuts (25 March 2021)

Whip/stick and pair of heavy boots or chain lead. I’ve done some damage to dogs attacking my dogs before. I’m not above kicking and stomping someones dog to protect mine. Dont give a rats ass who disapproves.


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## Pearlsasinger (25 March 2021)

Michen said:



			In Ireland. Frankly they should. The posts where owners have to be worried they can’t physically restrain their dogs, as if they would need to, make me really concerned tbh.

If you know that you may need to physically restrain your dog for the safety of others, what happens if you trip/fall etc. I think any dog where you don’t feel comfortable and completely sure that it will not be aggressive should be muzzled.
		
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I don't think anyone has said that they can't physically restrain their dog, have they?  Several people have said that they don't walk more than one Rottweiler at the same time but that is to ensure that they can physically control the dog if they need to do so.  Of course if the dog is well trained, it is unlikely that  owner will need to physically restrain it, especially if other people control their dogs too.  It always amazes me how many people are prepared to allow their small dogs to approach onlead Rottweilers, with complete abandon.


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## Michen (25 March 2021)

Pearlsasinger said:



			I don't think anyone has said that they can't physically restrain their dog, have they?  Several people have said that they don't walk more than one Rottweiler at the same time but that is to ensure that they can physically control the dog if they need to do so.  Of course if the dog is well trained, it is unlikely that  owner will need to physically restrain it, especially if other people control their dogs too.  It always amazes me how many people are prepared to allow their small dogs to approach onlead Rottweilers, with complete abandon.
		
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That's what I mean, if you are reliant on the NEED to physically restrain a dog (whether it's one dog or two), you are worried that the dog may need restraining for the safety of others surely? Otherwise you wouldn't be worried about a potential situation.

What happens if for some reason you become unable to restrain that one dog? You can't bank on being able to restrain it all the time.. like I said. What if you trip, fall, whatever. IMO if you own a dog that you feel could pose a threat to anyone full stop, it should be muzzled. Or trained.


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## Pearlsasinger (25 March 2021)

But nobody has said that their dog poses a threat to anyone, all the Rottweilers that have been mentioned on here *are* trained.  You probably noticed that I said ours is dog-neutral.   That is as a result of a carefully designed socialisation programme that started at 12 weeks.  
It makes me very cross that the owners of small dogs seem to think that their small dog can do as it likes but the big dogs should be trained to ignore them.   IMO *all* dogs should be trained.


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## Michen (25 March 2021)

Of course all dogs should be trained. That's a given. Look at the terrier that attacked the seal in London then bit a person trying to get it off the seal.

But what has been mentioned is the need to be able to physically restrain a dog, to prevent a potential problem. That has been mentioned. At the risk of repeating myself, if you had a dog sound in tempermant, why would this be a concern? It wouldn't. 

I know it's unlikely but things happen. Lets say you tripped and fell over and dropped the lead and someone came to help you. If you can't trust that your dog in that situation won't do anything to hurt another person, or dog, it should be muzzled.

That's just my opinion. And it goes for any breed.


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## Adele2003 (25 March 2021)

I think ALL dogs small and large should be muzzled in public.


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## tallyho! (25 March 2021)

I've written to my MP on several occasions because of witnessing of sheep worrying, chasing horses, chasing deer, children and general aggressiveness around our way. It's gotten so much worse during lockdone - more dogs no training. This is a national issue now. My own TRAINED dog was complained against only because he growled at a pup that came towards him as he lay.

That poor seal.

It has to be done. Licences. It's the only way.


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## Pearlsasinger (25 March 2021)

Michen said:



			Of course all dogs should be trained. That's a given. Look at the terrier that attacked the seal in London then bit a person trying to get it off the seal.

But what has been mentioned is the need to be able to physically restrain a dog, to prevent a potential problem. That has been mentioned. At the risk of repeating myself, if you had a dog sound in tempermant, why would this be a concern? It wouldn't.

I know it's unlikely but things happen. Lets say you tripped and fell over and dropped the lead and someone came to help you. If you can't trust that your dog in that situation won't do anything to hurt another person, or dog, it should be muzzled.

That's just my opinion. And it goes for any breed.
		
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As I can trust my dogs, there is no problem.  I thought you meant big dogs attacking small ones, as that was the theme of the thread.  I can trust mine not to do that either.  Although I know plenty of snappy little dogs, should they be muzzled too?


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## Michen (25 March 2021)

Pearlsasinger said:



			As I can trust my dogs, there is no problem.  I thought you meant big dogs attacking small ones, as that was the theme of the thread.  I can trust mine not to do that either.  Although I know plenty of snappy little dogs, should they be muzzled too?
		
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I mean people having dogs that they feel they need to be able to physical restrain because there is a risk if they aren’t.

And yes as I’ve said I think any snappy dog which could bite a person or dog should be muzzled. I am simply repeating myself here.


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## Amymay (25 March 2021)

Adele2003 said:



			I think ALL dogs small and large should be muzzled in public.
		
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Yeah, cos this clearly needs muzzling......


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## Roasted Chestnuts (25 March 2021)

Amymay said:



View attachment 68419

Yeah, cos this clearly needs muzzling......
		
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Worst bite I’ve ever had was a small dog. Stitches and glue to close large wounds in my hand.

Any dog can bite, some small dogs are worse than big ones for aggressive tendencies and can start the fights, so I can understand the sentiment of all dogs muzzled, I wouldn’t have liked to have muzzled my very cute, very friendly CKCs or my soppy big Gordon setters but if it was the rules I’d have done it.


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## meleeka (25 March 2021)

Michen said:



			Of course all dogs should be trained. That's a given. Look at the terrier that attacked the seal in London then bit a person trying to get it off the seal.

But what has been mentioned is the need to be able to physically restrain a dog, to prevent a potential problem. That has been mentioned. At the risk of repeating myself, if you had a dog sound in tempermant, why would this be a concern? It wouldn't. 

I know it's unlikely but things happen. Lets say you tripped and fell over and dropped the lead and someone came to help you. If you can't trust that your dog in that situation won't do anything to hurt another person, or dog, it should be muzzled.

That's just my opinion. And it goes for any breed.
		
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I wouldn’t be certain any dog that was petrified by an out of control dog wouldn’t retaliate.     When they are on a lead and unable to run away, they are much more likely to use attack as the best form of defence. You obviously can’t pick a Rottie up to get it safe from trouble.   Even one that’s dog neutral will defend itself if it has to.  Why should a well trained dog be muzzled, just so the out of control one doesn’t get hurt? The answer is surely for the out of control dog to be controlled?   Having to physically hold your dog back does not mean it’s out of control, just that it’s been pushed so far it feels it needs to defend itself.  I think dogs off lead is a far bigger problem than dogs not muzzled.


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## Michen (25 March 2021)

meleeka said:



			I wouldn’t be certain any dog that was petrified by an out of control dog wouldn’t retaliate.     When they are on a lead and unable to run away, they are much more likely to use attack as the best form of defence. You obviously can’t pick a Rottie up to get it safe from trouble.   Even one that’s dog neutral will defend itself if it has to.  Why should a well trained dog be muzzled, just so the out of control one doesn’t get hurt? The answer is surely for the out of control dog to be controlled?   Having to physically hold your dog back does not mean it’s out of control, just that it’s been pushed so far it feels it needs to defend itself.  I think dogs off lead is a far bigger problem than dogs not muzzled.
		
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I agree, my post is referring to if the dog has to be physically restrained because there is a potential that it may not behave under normal circumstances if not (ie got loose or whatnot).

That said, loose dogs are a fact of life. If you walk in public you are bound to encounter them. If you know that one coming up to yours, even in a friendly manner, will provoke your dog to bite then yes- I do think think steps should be taken. It’s immensely frustrating that other owners can cause such havoc for the responsible ones but ultimately if someone gets bitten whilst trying to their loose dog away from your angry on the lead dog, who is liable? Genuine question as I don’t know.

This thread is interesting as seems to suggest in some cases the owner of the dog on the lead would be liable even though it was an out of control dog that provoked it.in others not. So who knows!
https://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/topic/346571-dog-on-lead-bit-another-dog-not-on-a-lead/


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## Michen (25 March 2021)

And here. Mastiff on lead kills dog off lead that ran up to it. Owners arrested.

I am not convinced a person could physically stop a large breed dog in this situation anyway.

https://www.bournemouthecho.co.uk/n...mastiff-type-dog/?action=complain&cid=8473932


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## paddy555 (25 March 2021)

Michen said:



			If you know that one coming up to yours, even in a friendly manner, will provoke your dog to bite then yes- I do think think steps should be taken. /

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I agree steps should be taken. The owner of the loose dog should get it leaded so that it doesn't come up to  mine in the first place. That way problem solved. Not everyone wants loose dogs coming up to them or to their leaded dogs. 
As for biting then all dogs have the capacity to bite just as all horses have the capacity to kick.


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## cbmcts (26 March 2021)

I'll stick my head above the paraquat here.  First things first, the OP should be reporting the muppet who has 4 dogs of any breed that they can't control, that is totally unacceptable. I have a rottie who is incredibly strong - he's only 47 kgs.  but while he is not dog or people aggressive (he would be muzzled in public if he was) when he has a tantrum I do worry that I could lose hold. As a result, he is on two leads, a head collar and a harness. The head collar lead which is also attached to his collar is attached to me by a walking belt and he actually walks nicely on the lead attached to his harness. The reason he is attached to me is that if I was to slip or fall, he cannot get loose. 

As a deaf, abused rescue with suspected brain damage he must not get loose as you can't call him back and if he was having a panic he would run blind and the consequences of that are too high - into the road or if someone tried to grab him, I wouldn't want to take the chance that he'd snap. He'd certainly go through them for a short cut and by virtue of his breed alone, people would be terrified. So I make sure he isn't loose, it's not rocket science to achieve that! I would love another dog and am actively looking for one but it will have to be small(er) and very easy on a lead/ trained sufficiently to be off lead as I could not physically cope with another strong dog safely at the moment. So I have only one dog currently. In the past I've walked 3 rotties at a time but only once they were trained reliably enough that I could control them at all times. 

I know a lot of rottie owners and the great majority of them are very aware that they have a large breed that can scare people and worse case scenario, do a lot of damage. They are responsible, love their breed, train them well so keep their dogs and other people safe. They are even less impressed by irresponsible owners than most of you are because they don't want to be tarred with the same brush. 

I regularly see dog walkers with all breeds of dog totally out of control. Many of them are large enough to do a similar amount of damage as a Rottweiler/GSD/mastiff/large bullbreeds/insert current 'DevilDog' breed but you don't hear the demands for them to muzzled/kept on lead at all times. Pointers/Labs/Retrievers/Malamutes/Huskies are often a similar weight and/or height to a rottie and this year alone I have seen each and every one of these breeds square up to other dogs and on occasion people but they don't attract the vitriol that other breeds do? IME if there is going to be a nasty fight, a male staffie type will usually be involved but they're nanny dogs you know so it's ok...

By virtue of being on HHO, we all handle/have handled much larger animals(horses!) and should know that keeping an animal under control is not a matter of strength alone. We'd be stuffed if it was - it's all about training and technique. I'm happy to be held responsible for my animals but refuse to be the brain for the brainless dog walkers who cannot control their dogs and let them charge up to mine. If they want to play, mine will happily do so but the size differential may not work for them... If they are looking for aggro, mine won't start a fight but I couldn't guarantee that he won't carry it on. I do everything in my power and take all reasonable steps to make sure that it wouldn't get to this stage but I can't control other people or their dogs! They are not my responsibility after all.


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## GSD Woman (26 March 2021)

Adele2003 said:



			I think ALL dogs small and large should be muzzled in public.
		
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I don't know if you are just a dog hater or a troll.


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## Adele2003 (26 March 2021)

Amymay said:



View attachment 68419

Yeah, cos this clearly needs muzzling......
		
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Yes they do, dogs are dogs they are ANIMALS your small doggy could go to a large doggy and cause war it can happen between any dog. your small dog has teeth can bite adult or child cause injury or scars dont underestimate a animal with teeth


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## Adele2003 (26 March 2021)

Pearlsasinger said:



			As I can trust my dogs, there is no problem.  I thought you meant big dogs attacking small ones, as that was the theme of the thread.  I can trust mine not to do that either.  Although I know plenty of snappy little dogs, should they be muzzled too?
		
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ALL DOGS ARE ANIMALS please everyone try remember this.  you control and train your dogs  but if they take a dislike to someone or something they will retaliate by what is their nature to attack you can't trust any animal so keep them muzzled and on the lead saves children getting attacked and anyone and anything getting attacked


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## Adele2003 (26 March 2021)

GSD Woman said:



			I don't know if you are just a dog hater or a troll.
		
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I have a dog of my own but im sick and tired of being scared of other peoples dogs i like walking but I've stopped. Why is that, if they're was a law people muzzled their dogs i might feel safe to walk again


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## Adele2003 (26 March 2021)

Adele2003 said:



			I have a dog of my own but im sick and tired of being scared of other peoples dogs i like walking but I've stopped. Why is that, if they're was a law people muzzled their dogs i might feel safe to walk again
		
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And there's no need for nasty comments


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## meleeka (26 March 2021)

Adele2003 said:



			I have a dog of my own but im sick and tired of being scared of other peoples dogs i like walking but I've stopped. Why is that, if they're was a law people muzzled their dogs i might feel safe to walk again
		
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So you’d be happy for dogs to still be out of control, provided they couldn’t bite?


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## paddy555 (26 March 2021)

cbmcts said:



			I'll stick my head above the paraquat here.  First things first, the OP should be reporting the muppet who has 4 dogs of any breed that they can't control, that is totally unacceptable. I have a rottie who is incredibly strong - he's only 47 kgs.  but while he is not dog or people aggressive (he would be muzzled in public if he was) when he has a tantrum I do worry that I could lose hold. As a result, he is on two leads, a head collar and a harness. The head collar lead which is also attached to his collar is attached to me by a walking belt and he actually walks nicely on the lead attached to his harness. The reason he is attached to me is that if I was to slip or fall, he cannot get loose.

As a deaf, abused rescue with suspected brain damage he must not get loose as you can't call him back and if he was having a panic he would run blind and the consequences of that are too high - into the road or if someone tried to grab him, I wouldn't want to take the chance that he'd snap. He'd certainly go through them for a short cut and by virtue of his breed alone, people would be terrified. So I make sure he isn't loose, it's not rocket science to achieve that! I would love another dog and am actively looking for one but it will have to be small(er) and very easy on a lead/ trained sufficiently to be off lead as I could not physically cope with another strong dog safely at the moment. So I have only one dog currently. In the past I've walked 3 rotties at a time but only once they were trained reliably enough that I could control them at all times.

I know a lot of rottie owners and the great majority of them are very aware that they have a large breed that can scare people and worse case scenario, do a lot of damage. They are responsible, love their breed, train them well so keep their dogs and other people safe. They are even less impressed by irresponsible owners than most of you are because they don't want to be tarred with the same brush.

I regularly see dog walkers with all breeds of dog totally out of control. Many of them are large enough to do a similar amount of damage as a Rottweiler/GSD/mastiff/large bullbreeds/insert current 'DevilDog' breed but you don't hear the demands for them to muzzled/kept on lead at all times. Pointers/Labs/Retrievers/Malamutes/Huskies are often a similar weight and/or height to a rottie and this year alone I have seen each and every one of these breeds square up to other dogs and on occasion people but they don't attract the vitriol that other breeds do? IME if there is going to be a nasty fight, a male staffie type will usually be involved but they're nanny dogs you know so it's ok...

By virtue of being on HHO, we all handle/have handled much larger animals(horses!) and should know that keeping an animal under control is not a matter of strength alone. We'd be stuffed if it was - it's all about training and technique. I'm happy to be held responsible for my animals but refuse to be the brain for the brainless dog walkers who cannot control their dogs and let them charge up to mine. If they want to play, mine will happily do so but the size differential may not work for them... If they are looking for aggro, mine won't start a fight but I couldn't guarantee that he won't carry it on. I do everything in my power and take all reasonable steps to make sure that it wouldn't get to this stage but I can't control other people or their dogs! They are not my responsibility after all.
		
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this. Mine is a GSD and when we go out he is double leaded with his harness to my waist band. This is not because he is vicious it is an insurance policy because he is a big dog and I am very careful towards the general public. 

In the example in post 56 of the mastiff tragically killing the small dog it most likely would not have happened if the small dog had been leaded.  If the mastiff was loose and had run up to it and killed it then of course the mastiff owner would be to blame.


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## Michen (26 March 2021)

paddy555 said:



			this. Mine is a GSD and when we go out he is double leaded with his harness to my waist band. This is not because he is vicious it is an insurance policy because he is a big dog and I am very careful towards the general public.

In the example in post 56 of the mastiff tragically killing the small dog it most likely would not have happened if the small dog had been leaded.  If the mastiff was loose and had run up to it and killed it then of course the mastiff owner would be to blame.
		
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I completely agree. But my point is that legally, who is responsible as in that instance it seemed to be the mastiff owner?

So take the scenario of your dog is on lead. Dog runs up. Owner goes to grab it and gets bitten by your leashed dog in the process as it’s trying to defend itself/it’s owner.

I am not for one moment saying people with out of control unleashed dogs shouldn’t be held accountable, it’s an absolute pet hate of mine as the owner of a dog who has been trained to utterly ignore other dogs.


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## Adele2003 (26 March 2021)

meleeka said:



			So you’d be happy for dogs to still be out of control, provided they couldn’t bite?
		
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No but at least PEOPLE would feel safe out and about  and not have to worry


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## gunnergundog (26 March 2021)

Michen said:



			I completely agree. But my point is that legally, who is responsible as in that instance it seemed to be the mastiff owner?

So take the scenario of your dog is on lead. Dog runs up. Owner goes to grab it and gets bitten by your leashed dog in the process as it’s trying to defend itself/it’s owner.

I am not for one moment saying people with out of control unleashed dogs shouldn’t be held accountable, it’s an absolute pet hate of mine as the owner of a dog who has been trained to utterly ignore other dogs.
		
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Have a read of the Trevor Cooper Dog Law website.

It's never cut and dry but Trevor has proven in court that a dog on leash is not necessarily under control.  Past history, temperament of dog, fitness and skill of handler are just some of the factors that would be considered.


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## Widgeon (26 March 2021)

Adele2003 said:



			dont underestimate a animal with teeth
		
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Humans are animals. Humans have teeth. Should we all be wearing Hannibal masks? Discuss.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cumbria-55587476

(Sorry, I will go and do some work now....*slinks away*)


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## Widgeon (26 March 2021)

gunnergundog said:



			Have a read of the Trevor Cooper Dog Law website.

It's never cut and dry but Trevor has proven in court that a dog on leash is not necessarily under control.  Past history, temperament of dog, fitness and skill of handler are just some of the factors that would be considered.
		
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On a slightly less immature note this is very interesting, thanks for sharing.


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## paddy555 (26 March 2021)

Widgeon said:



			Humans are animals. Humans have teeth. Should we all be wearing Hannibal masks? Discuss.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cumbria-55587476

(Sorry, I will go and do some work now....*slinks away*)
		
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when I was at school we had an animal house. Rats, mice, gerbils etc etc
I picked up a gerbil and the nasty little b*gger sank it's teeth into my finger and hung on.
Should he have been wearing a mask as well?  I was severely traumatised.

(another one slinking off to do some work,)


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## Michen (26 March 2021)

gunnergundog said:



			Have a read of the Trevor Cooper Dog Law website.

It's never cut and dry but Trevor has proven in court that a dog on leash is not necessarily under control.  Past history, temperament of dog, fitness and skill of handler are just some of the factors that would be considered.
		
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Interesting and validates what I though- just because your dog is on a lead it doesn't mean you are automatically not in the wrong if it bites someone or something.


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## cbmcts (26 March 2021)

Adele2003 said:



			ALL DOGS ARE ANIMALS please everyone try remember this.  you control and train your dogs  but if they take a dislike to someone or something they will retaliate by what is their nature to attack you can't trust any animal so keep them muzzled and on the lead saves children getting attacked and anyone and anything getting attacked
		
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You do realise that a muzzle is not a magic item that means a dog cannot injure anyone or anything? Ok, they can't bite - well if the Baskerville type muzzle stays on but they often don't IME and you cannot use a sleeve mizzle for extended periods or during exercise as they don't allow panting.  Muzzled dogs can still hurt people and other animals by jumping up or knocking them over, bodyslamming, or splattiing a smaller dog and they can still worry livestock muzzled too

As dogs are animals, people as the supposedly more intelligent beings have to take responsibility for themselves and their animals by being aware, training their dog and if that is too much for them, keeping it leashed in public. If a dog 'takes a dislike'  to something or somebody it is up to the handler to remove it from close proximity from others. It is also up to random members of the public to allow the handler to do that my keeping themselves and their dogs away. After all, we are still meant to be social distancing...

With the greatest respect, your fear and lack of trust in dogs should not impinge upon mine and other responsible dog walkers right to use public spaces. It's akin to saying that because some people drive dangerously, nobody should be allowed have a car. By all means, come down on dog walkers whose animals are causing problems, make it as socially unacceptable as drink driving is. If need be, regulate to have minimum standards of behaviour in public spaces but for that to work, it would need consistency of enforcement and that costs money and time. If that was in place, I bet a lot of privileged people who think that the world should revolve around them and theirs would be shocked and mortified when they got a fixed penalty or a caution because that shouldn't happen to those with 'nice' breeds you know.


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## SAujla (26 March 2021)

cbmcts said:



			You do realise that a muzzle is not a magic item that means a dog cannot injure anyone or anything? Ok, they can't bite - well if the Baskerville type muzzle stays on but they often don't IME and you cannot use a sleeve mizzle for extended periods or during exercise as they don't allow panting.  Muzzled dogs can still hurt people and other animals by jumping up or knocking them over, bodyslamming, or splattiing a smaller dog and they can still worry livestock muzzled too

As dogs are animals, people as the supposedly more intelligent beings have to take responsibility for themselves and their animals by being aware, training their dog and if that is too much for them, keeping it leashed in public. If a dog 'takes a dislike'  to something or somebody it is up to the handler to remove it from close proximity from others. It is also up to random members of the public to allow the handler to do that my keeping themselves and their dogs away. After all, we are still meant to be social distancing...

With the greatest respect, your fear and lack of trust in dogs should not impinge upon mine and other responsible dog walkers right to use public spaces. It's akin to saying that because some people drive dangerously, nobody should be allowed have a car. By all means, come down on dog walkers whose animals are causing problems, make it as socially unacceptable as drink driving is. If need be, regulate to have minimum standards of behaviour in public spaces but for that to work, it would need consistency of enforcement and that costs money and time. If that was in place, I bet a lot of privileged people who think that the world should revolve around them and theirs would be shocked and mortified when they got a fixed penalty or a caution because that shouldn't happen to those with 'nice' breeds you know.
		
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Very well said. A loose untrained dog is always going to be a problem, but I've seen just as many off lead dogs who act in a perfect manner. This wasn't by chance it's good training.


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## Mrs. Jingle (26 March 2021)

My now retired mare was attacked by a collie while we were walking past its garden. I had thought for several weeks, that at some point it would either come over the fence at us or under the gate. I think collies are one of the most dangerous breeds, and ill trained one scares me far more than any of the lovely rotties and GSD's I know. 

I have had many, many collies in earlier years and I could read this one like a book, I blame myself for not avoiding the route. One day it did actually squeeze under that gate and attacked my horse. My lovely mare just span and span trying to kick out at it - it bite her belly, her front legs and both of her back heels - at one point hanging on so hard to her back leg I jumped off and was thrashing it with my schooling whip until it eventually let go and squeezed back under the gate yelping, by this time the owner came out as she had obviously heard (and probably seen) all the commotion out of her window.

As I furiously told her how unsafe her dog was while I tried to see where all the blood was coming from on my horse, she asked me was I sure it was her dog and not the next door neighbours - a frickin westie!!!! 

Long term outcome, my horse was lame and off work for 3 months mostly due to bites to her back legs, the collies owners did pay the bill when I threatened to get the dog warden on to it - over here it would probably have very quickly been taken and put down.

I guess the thing is - there really isn't a safe breed is there, it isn't a breed issue, it is a training issue. A badly trained dog of any breed can be very dangerous. Even the small breeds have been known to rip half a child's face off under certain circumstances. Blame the owners not the breed.


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## GSD Woman (26 March 2021)

Mrs Jingle, I hope your poor mare wasn't horribly, mentally traumatized by the attack.   It seems like the loose, uncontrolled dog issue just gets worse over the years, not better.


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## Mrs. Jingle (26 March 2021)

GSD Woman said:



			Mrs Jingle, I hope your poor mare wasn't horribly, mentally traumatized by the attack.   It seems like the loose, uncontrolled dog issue just gets worse over the years, not better.
		
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Luckily she soon became relaxed around dogs again with our own mutts milling around her at home - and eventually we could still hack out safely with various farm dogs running along yapping at her heels. It says more about her forgiving nature and our horse friendly family dogs than anything I could do to help her, I just fixed the medical side, the family dogs fixed the emotional scars.


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## laura_nash (28 March 2021)

Adele2003 said:



			ALL DOGS ARE ANIMALS please everyone try remember this.  you control and train your dogs  but if they take a dislike to someone or something they will retaliate by what is their nature to attack you can't trust any animal so keep them muzzled and on the lead saves children getting attacked and anyone and anything getting attacked
		
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All horses are animals too, and will kick as it's their nature to defend themselves.  I guess we should ban them from public places too?  This is an odd forum to choose if you distrust animals and think they're all about to randomly try and kill children.

Good job you don't live round here, most people here have latchkey dogs that go where they like during the day 🤫 No children have been killed so far.


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## laura_nash (28 March 2021)

Adele2003 said:



			I have a dog of my own but im sick and tired of being scared of other peoples dogs i like walking but I've stopped.
		
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You have a dog and you've stopped walking?  I hope you've employed a dog walker.


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## paddy555 (28 March 2021)

laura_nash said:



			All horses are animals too, and will kick as it's their nature to defend themselves.  I guess we should ban them from public places too?  This is an odd forum to choose if you distrust animals and think they're all about to randomly try and kill children.

Good job you don't live round here, most people here have latchkey dogs that go where they like during the day 🤫 No children have been killed so far.
		
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horses, except semi ferals, are not wandering around the roads loose and able to cause an accident. The vast majority of horses in public places are under control and riders seem to take far more care than dog owners. 

We have latch key dogs in my area.. Many are farm collies. They cause accidents and my neighbour"s collie bit a child and hospitalised him. He did live but was scarred. 

I no longer walk my dog out. I am just so fed up with loose dogs. I cannot seem to manage any walk out without at least 2 loose dog incidents and that is simply not fair on my dog. 
There is one road I wouldn't dare walk down and neither does anyone else. You get 4 loose farm dogs straight over the wall at you. There is no way I could get past them. My GSD is double leaded back to my waist band. He couldn't get loose from me and if he pulled me over he would simply be pulling a dead weight. However he would be traumatised trying to get through them, He is a quiet well behaved dog when we sit to let dogs go past us.  I want him to stay that way. 

I made great steps to solving the dog problem when riding. I taught the horse that when dogs come at us and owner's don't call them back we go on the attack. The last horse got very confident at this. He learnt to enjoy it. The owner's learnt to panic when they realised half a ton of horse really was going to march over their dog.  

If dog's won't walk to heel past anything get them on a lead. Your choice. Train them or lead them. No one should allow their dog to make a nuisance of itself.


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## Lipglosspukka (28 March 2021)

My dogs are okay ish. They aren't aggressive at all, but they are rude and would run up to another dog barking if they had the chance. They aren't unsociable and will play, however the initial impolite greeting is of course concerning for some dogs so I don't put them in the situation. 

As a result I take precautions with our walking routines. We go out at 5am (Which was extremely painful this morning with the clock change!) And they are only allowed off in certain areas where I can see a long way off if anyone else is around (at 5am, believe me there isn't!) And then our afternoon walk is in private fields when feeding the horses when I know I won't see anyone else. 

If you can't be assed to train them, then be prepared to have to put yourself out to exercise them in ways that won't affect the rest of the general public.


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## Schollym (28 March 2021)

Adele2003 said:



			Yes they do, dogs are dogs they are ANIMALS your small doggy could go to a large doggy and cause war it can happen between any dog. your small dog has teeth can bite adult or child cause injury or scars dont underestimate a animal with teeth
		
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Both incidents we have had recently with small dogs one was a jack russell attacking our lab ( the owner was ‘walking’ her three dogs by having them run behind her land rover as she drove down a green lane) the other more recently a shihztu that grabbed our dogs back leg. Both situations were dealt with by our normally mild mannered labradoodle that picked them up and threw them ( the first incident she was minding her own business hunting in the ditch and came to the rescue) the second it was her leg. Fortunately neither of our dogs were hurt but both were unprovoked attacks.


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## FinnishLapphund (28 March 2021)

Adele2003 said:



			I think ALL dogs small and large should be muzzled in public.
		
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Considering accident, and crime statistics involving humans vs dogs, I think that:

All cars and trucks should have a sharp pointy metal stick attached to the middle of the steering wheel so that all drivers finally realised that they have to drive carefully, and stop killing pedestrians and bicyclists.

All humans should be on leash to some ethically programmed robot, and men, and teenagers should wear some type of electric shock collar.

Edited To Add:


Adele2003 said:



			I have a dog of my own but im sick and tired of being scared of other peoples dogs i like walking but I've stopped. Why is that, if they're was a law people muzzled their dogs i might feel safe to walk again
		
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I forgot to ask, what type of muzzle is your dog wearing?


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## GSD Woman (28 March 2021)

Lipglosspukka said:



			If you can't be assed to train them, then be prepared to have to put yourself out to exercise them in ways that won't affect the rest of the general public.
		
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This, so much this.  I had a dog that would go for other dogs as she got older.  Once, and I mean once, that happened she was always exercised either on lead or in a very safe area.  I have a large, fenced, back garden and my neighbor has a large extra lot that he allows me to use to run the dogs.  I'm lucky in those regards because so many suburban areas that isn't available.


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## Amymay (4 April 2021)

Adele2003 said:



			I think ALL dogs small and large should be muzzled in public.
		
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Just coming back to this. The collie I walk was attacked yesterday by a GS wearing a muzzle.  The dog is badly bruised.  

So how exactly does your muzzling policy work exactly??


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## Michen (4 April 2021)

Amymay said:



			Just coming back to this. The collie I walk was attacked yesterday by a GS wearing a muzzle.  The dog is badly bruised.  

So how exactly does your muzzling policy work exactly??
		
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well imagine if the dog wasn’t wearing a muzzle, what the injuries would have been then? I don’t agree with muzzling all dogs btw but thank god for the collies sake it was I guess.


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## Amymay (4 April 2021)

Michen said:



			well imagine if the dog wasn’t wearing a muzzle, what the injuries would have been then? I don’t agree with muzzling all dogs btw but thank god for the collies sake it was I guess.
		
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Well, yes you make an excellent point. And I absolutely take that on board.


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## FinnishLapphund (4 April 2021)

Michen said:



			well imagine if the dog wasn’t wearing a muzzle, what the injuries would have been then? I don’t agree with muzzling all dogs btw but thank god for the collies sake it was I guess.
		
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If muzzling wasn't an option, perhaps the GS would have been euthanised, and it wouldn't have happened at all?


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## Moobli (4 April 2021)

There is a petition currently doing the rounds asking for a law to make it compulsory for all dogs to be on a lead in public places.  I understand the sentiment but it isn't something I could ever support.  Why should those of us who work hard to train our dogs to be obedient be penalised for those who don't, can't or won't do the same?


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## Amymay (4 April 2021)

Moobli said:



			There is a petition currently doing the rounds asking for a law to make it compulsory for all dogs to be on a lead in public places.  I understand the sentiment but it isn't something I could ever support.  Why should those of us who work hard to train our dogs to be obedient be penalised for those who don't, can't or won't do the same?
		
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Not something I’d ever support either. Owners just need to take responsibility for training their dogs. It’s as simple as that.


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## Tiddlypom (4 April 2021)

Moobli said:



			Why should those of us who work hard to train our dogs to be obedient be penalised for those who don't, can't or won't do the same?
		
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Because sadly responsible owners seem to be in the minority now.

There are just far too many idiot owners with dogs with little or no recall, and the owners have no idea of how it is acceptable for their dogs to behave, hence all the bouncing up to on lead dogs.

There are so many attacks on sheep happening here locally, too.


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## PurBee (4 April 2021)

paddy555 said:



			horses, except semi ferals, are not wandering around the roads loose and able to cause an accident. The vast majority of horses in public places are under control and riders seem to take far more care than dog owners.

We have latch key dogs in my area.. Many are farm collies. They cause accidents and my neighbour"s collie bit a child and hospitalised him. He did live but was scarred.

I no longer walk my dog out. I am just so fed up with loose dogs. I cannot seem to manage any walk out without at least 2 loose dog incidents and that is simply not fair on my dog.
There is one road I wouldn't dare walk down and neither does anyone else. You get 4 loose farm dogs straight over the wall at you. There is no way I could get past them. My GSD is double leaded back to my waist band. He couldn't get loose from me and if he pulled me over he would simply be pulling a dead weight. However he would be traumatised trying to get through them, He is a quiet well behaved dog when we sit to let dogs go past us.  I want him to stay that way.

I made great steps to solving the dog problem when riding. I taught the horse that when dogs come at us and owner's don't call them back we go on the attack. The last horse got very confident at this. He learnt to enjoy it. The owner's learnt to panic when they realised half a ton of horse really was going to march over their dog. 

If dog's won't walk to heel past anything get them on a lead. Your choice. Train them or lead them. No one should allow their dog to make a nuisance of itself.
		
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latch key dogs surround my area - every farm and most houses have a dog loose in the garden. Most are well behaved considering how many there are!

The worst ones are the type that love car wheels...they shoot out of their garden onto the road as you’re driving by the house and they run at your car wheels and try to chase the car! There’s one JRT lives at a house on a sharp blind bend going steeply downhill that always shoots out like a rocket into the road and chases the car. Its so shocking those drivers who dont know the house are very likely to drive into oncoming traffic if there was some, or into the ditch - as you think youre going to run the small thing over as it goes right close to your wheels going by at 40mph.

Its amazing that dog is alive tbh and if i was the owner of a dog doing that, running out into the road at traffic, i’d fence it in to stop it.

We had a loose pack - 2 rottweilers and an old white sheepdogxpoodle turn up at my place, wondering round my farm, no owners passing by walking, they had got loose. I put my dogs away immediately as the white older dog had blood spatters on it, so i was concerned what had happened. I was afraid of the rotties initially, but talked to them friendly-tone “good boy’ and it wagged its tail...the rotties were friendlier than the old sheep dog. OH shooed them off like he was herding cattle with a stick - they complied. Found out later the household they came from they were always getting loose and patrolling other houses attacking chickens - hence the blood on the collie - eventually they were shot by a farmer after another incident. Its sad for the dogs.

My 2 are loose on the farm but only when im out and i have them with me. Trigger-happy farmers can always make them victims. Theyre friendly to all but i know that if they get attacked by passing loose aggressive dogs, they’ll try to defend themselves too. I therefore keep them close by me, loose. When i’m in, theyre in. When on walks outside the farm theyre on a lead at all times, even though theyre safe loose. Its always those ‘just in case’ unpredictable moments. We can train but never for every eventuality.


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## FinnishLapphund (4 April 2021)

Moobli said:



			There is a petition currently doing the rounds asking for a law to make it compulsory for all dogs to be on a lead in public places.  I understand the sentiment but it isn't something I could ever support.  Why should those of us who work hard to train our dogs to be obedient be penalised for those who don't, can't or won't do the same?
		
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Whether a dog is on lead or not doesn't say anything about whether it is under control or not.
Why bother with tedious training, buy a retractable lead, and start shouting "Don't worry, she's on a lead!"


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## Clodagh (4 April 2021)

Tiddlypom said:



			There are so many attacks on sheep happening here locally, too.
		
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I don't think muzzling would save many sheep. It is more stress IMO and I think loads died last year when they suffocated each other after being cornered by a dog.


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## paddy555 (4 April 2021)

PurBee said:



			latch key dogs surround my area - every farm and most houses have a dog loose in the garden. Most are well behaved considering how many there are!

The worst ones are the type that love car wheels...they shoot out of their garden onto the road as you’re driving by the house and they run at your car wheels and try to chase the car! There’s one JRT lives at a house on a sharp blind bend going steeply downhill that always shoots out like a rocket into the road and chases the car. Its so shocking those drivers who dont know the house are very likely to drive into oncoming traffic if there was some, or into the ditch - as you think youre going to run the small thing over as it goes right close to your wheels going by at 40mph.

Its amazing that dog is alive tbh and if i was the owner of a dog doing that, running out into the road at traffic, i’d fence it in to stop it.

We had a loose pack - 2 rottweilers and an old white sheepdogxpoodle turn up at my place, wondering round my farm, no owners passing by walking, they had got loose. I put my dogs away immediately as the white older dog had blood spatters on it, so i was concerned what had happened. I was afraid of the rotties initially, but talked to them friendly-tone “good boy’ and it wagged its tail...the rotties were friendlier than the old sheep dog. OH shooed them off like he was herding cattle with a stick - they complied. Found out later the household they came from they were always getting loose and patrolling other houses attacking chickens - hence the blood on the collie - eventually they were shot by a farmer after another incident. Its sad for the dogs.

My 2 are loose on the farm but only when im out and i have them with me. Trigger-happy farmers can always make them victims. Theyre friendly to all but i know that if they get attacked by passing loose aggressive dogs, they’ll try to defend themselves too. I therefore keep them close by me, loose. When i’m in, theyre in. When on walks outside the farm theyre on a lead at all times, even though theyre safe loose. Its always those ‘just in case’ unpredictable moments. We can train but never for every eventuality.
		
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leaving aside your own dogs none of the above is to do with training. It is the fact that dog owners are not taking responsibility and are allowing their dogs to wander loose, run out at cars etc etc


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## Tiddlypom (4 April 2021)

Clodagh said:



			I don't think muzzling would save many sheep. It is more stress IMO and I think loads died last year when they suffocated each other after being cornered by a dog.
		
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Ah no, I'm not convinced about muzzling either, it's compulsorily having a dog on a lead I was meaning.

Poor sheep .


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## Michen (4 April 2021)

FinnishLapphund said:



			If muzzling wasn't an option, perhaps the GS would have been euthanised, and it wouldn't have happened at all?
		
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well yes, and any dog that attacks other dogs or people should be IMO


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## paddy555 (4 April 2021)

Moobli said:



			There is a petition currently doing the rounds asking for a law to make it compulsory for all dogs to be on a lead in public places.  I understand the sentiment but it isn't something I could ever support.  Why should those of us who work hard to train our dogs to be obedient be penalised for those who don't, can't or won't do the same?
		
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I see where you are coming from but I think I would probably support compulsory leading. All the incidents I have had with dogs would have been prevented if the dog had been on a lead. Two incidents of dogs hanging onto horses hind legs. Both were in the air as the horses tried to kick them off. A staffie and a golden retriever.
Numerous times of dogs running at and chasing the ridden horses wouldn't have happened if the dogs had been leaded.
Endless incidents on our bikes with dogs running at them, having a dog hanging onto my jeans trying to pull  me off my bike, nearly coming off the bike as loose dogs ran under the front wheels.

I think the time is coming now when something needs to be done. I appreciate it is unfair on the owners of well trained dogs. However life is unfair. We all jump through hoops to get our firearms/shotgun certs yet we are not the problem, it is unlicensed gun holders. We insure, tax and MOT our vehicles  (potential killing machines)  yet some are unwilling to comply. It penalises the good owners/drivers/shooters because the bad ones won't comply.

Dog owners need to realise that firstly not all other dog owners like dogs. They may like their own but they don't want other dogs coming at them or their dogs. Secondly not everyone likes dogs. Some are afraid of them. They don't wish to have loose dogs running up to them. Dog owners seem to miss that point.


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## Arzada (4 April 2021)

paddy555 said:



			Endless incidents on our bikes with dogs running at them, having a dog hanging onto my jeans trying to pull  me off my bike, nearly coming off the bike as loose dogs ran under the front wheels.

I think the time is coming now when something needs to be done. I appreciate it is unfair on the owners of well trained dogs. However life is unfair. We all jump through hoops to get our firearms/shotgun certs yet we are not the problem, it is unlicensed gun holders. We insure, tax and MOT our vehicles  (potential killing machines)  yet some are unwilling to comply. It penalises the good owners/drivers/shooters because the bad ones won't comply.

Dog owners need to realise that firstly not all other dog owners like dogs. They may like their own but they don't want other dogs coming at them or their dogs. Secondly not everyone likes dogs. Some are afraid of them. They don't wish to have loose dogs running up to them. Dog owners seem to miss that point.
		
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Agree with you completely paddy555. 

On shared paths I have been attacked by a Doberman running alongside and lunging at me. Terrifying. I couldn't understand why the walkers ahead didn't call the dog. Eventually someone else called the dog. Not the people on the shared path but a woman in an adjoining field. The dog obviously had some restraint because it didn't bite me but bit the back wheel as it left. 

Run into by a very large 'oodle that probably weighed the same as I do. Owner yelled 'no' so dog took off and ran into my now stopped bike. No apology from the owner. 

Solidly built black Labrador wrapped round my stationary front wheel. Went to set off to find its identical twin now in front of me. Owner said she can't have them on lead because they pull her over. 

And most recently I was taken down by a springer which was out of my sight in bushes/ditch behind its owners who had a dog on lead so I didn't anticipate another dog. I saw it in front of my wheel, no time to use brakes, bike stopped dead and I rolled along the tarmac. I was very lucky. I have osteopenia and really don't need this. The owners were apologetic and offered to pay for the damage to my bike. 

I no longer trust any dog/owner and my default is to stop if I see any movement in my direction. I scrutinise every walker to see if they are carrying a lead just in case there's a chance of a dog ambush ahead.

I now rarely go on these 'out of control dog trails' preferring to take my chance on lanes and roads where so far none of the above has happened to me. 

I realise that some cyclists are not as considerate as others would like. I am not one of them. I slow down, I stop pedalling, I use my bell, I say thank you literally every time etc etc. I call out to horse riders and once they hear me I ask if it's ok for me to pass them. Rarely do I get a response for my consideration from dog owners and pedestrians. I am generally thanked by the horse riders. 

The shared trails are now too unsafe due to loose dogs that I think dogs on them should be on lead just as on a road. Many cyclists are, like me, choosing not to be on the off road shared paths and to risk instead the impatience, anger and 'punishment passes' of some motorists.


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## CorvusCorax (4 April 2021)

Try biking with a dog!!


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## Michen (4 April 2021)

I can understand the argument for a dogs on lead in public places law tbh. And I say this as someone who lost my last dog lead at christmas and haven't bothered replacing it (yet), because my dog has been trained to walk immaculately at heel when needed and therefore doesn't need one wherever she goes at the mo I will buy a new one for when the pubs open!

I still maintain that any person who owns dogs who can be aggressive should think really hard about walking them in public without a muzzle.

As proven, just because your dog is on a lead, doesn't mean you can't be found at fault if it then bites someone.


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## paddy555 (4 April 2021)

Arzada said:



			And most recently I was taken down by a springer which was out of my sight in bushes/ditch behind its owners who had a dog on lead so I didn't anticipate another dog. I saw it in front of my wheel, no time to use brakes, bike stopped dead and I rolled along the tarmac. I was very lucky. I have osteopenia and really don't need this. The owners were apologetic and offered to pay for the damage to my bike.

I no longer trust any dog/owner and my default is to stop if I see any movement in my direction. I scrutinise every walker to see if they are carrying a lead just in case there's a chance of a dog ambush ahead.



I realise that some cyclists are not as considerate as others would like. I am not one of them. I slow down, I stop pedalling, I use my bell, I say thank you literally every time etc etc. I call out to horse riders and once they hear me I ask if it's ok for me to pass them. Rarely do I get a response for my consideration from dog owners and pedestrians. I am generally thanked by the horse riders.
		
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me too on all of that. Some of our shared paths go through dense woodland. I don't even see  the path in front of me I am too busy looking for that springer who is going to come flying out of the wood straight across the front of me. Always springers. 

I look at every owner for a lead. I look at every retractable lead to wonder if the owner is going to winch the dog in. 

As for biking with a dog then no way. It is a shame. Mine is trained to trot to heel with the bike. Too much risk when a loose dog comes at us. I have ended up on the ground. My dog is still sitting and the loose dog is all over us.


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## paddy555 (4 April 2021)

Michen said:



			I still maintain that any person who owns dogs who can be aggressive should think really hard about walking them in public without a muzzle.
		
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problem is how do you identify them? if the owner was able to (or willing to) then they would have either trained them/ muzzled them or not taken them out in public. 

A JRT can bite as nastily as an Akita. The staffie that hung onto my haflinger's hind leg was the sweetest dog when I watched him playing with his owners and their kids. When he was attached to the horse he became a demon. Couldn't get him off as there was too much danger of being kicked. If I could have got close safely I would have twisted his collar in the hope of strangling him. Nothing else would have worked. His jaw was just locked on.


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## Michen (4 April 2021)

paddy555 said:



			problem is how do you identify them? if the owner was able to (or willing to) then they would have either trained them/ muzzled them or not taken them out in public. 

A JRT can bite as nastily as an Akita. The staffie that hung onto my haflinger's hind leg was the sweetest dog when I watched him playing with his owners and their kids. When he was attached to the horse he became a demon. Couldn't get him off as there was too much danger of being kicked. If I could have got close safely I would have twisted his collar in the hope of strangling him. Nothing else would have worked. His jaw was just locked on.
		
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What do you mean? The owners need to take responsibility.  If they own an aggressive animal and can’t train it then control it. Muzzle and lead. Or even better- put it down. 

It’s not good enough to just do one or the other.


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## Clodagh (4 April 2021)

I can actually see the pluses to dogs in say parks and busy places being leashed. I also am lucky enough not to have to walk in parks or on crowded beaches. I hate leads and never use them but am very priveleged not to have to put up with the dog behaviours so many of you describe. Went for a 2 hour walk this morning and only saw one vehicle, and that was a tractor! No people with or without dogs at all.


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## Clodagh (4 April 2021)

Tiddlypom said:



			Ah no, I'm not convinced about muzzling either, it's compulsorily having a dog on a lead I was meaning.

Poor sheep .
		
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Sorry, my misunderstanding.


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## paddy555 (4 April 2021)

Michen said:



			What do you mean? The owners need to take responsibility.  If they own an aggressive animal and can’t train it then control it. Muzzle and lead. Or even better- put it down.

It’s not good enough to just do one or the other.
		
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to be fair the owner's don't always know. In the example I gave of the staffie going for my horse the owners never realised that is what it would do.


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## CorvusCorax (4 April 2021)

I keep mine on leash in public/where I am likely to meet anyone as a matter of course anyway, even the one with lovely recall; no one actually wants to see big dogs off leash running around.
They can do competition heelwork/stare adoringly into my eyes but I don't see the point in making them do that when they are out for a walk.


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## Michen (4 April 2021)

paddy555 said:



			to be fair the owner's don't always know. In the example I gave of the staffie going for my horse the owners never realised that is what it would do.
		
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Perhaps they should. This list tells me all I need to know about certain types of dogs. I KNOW there are plenty within the breeds who are lovely, gentle and well trained. But we can't deny some breeds are more likely to attack than others, or show aggression. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fatal_dog_attacks_in_the_United_Kingdom


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## Michen (4 April 2021)

CorvusCorax said:



			I keep mine on leash in public/where I am likely to meet anyone as a matter of course anyway, even the one with lovely recall; no one actually wants to see big dogs off leash running around.
They can do competition heelwork/stare adoringly into my eyes but I don't see the point in making them do that when they are out for a walk.
		
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Making them heel when out for a walk? Why not? I see it as good bits of training for mine, dog/person approaches and she has to heel for the 2 minutes or so as we pass them. Then off she goes.

Different in a park for sure so depends on your walking I guess, my local 1 hr loop I will prob meet 1/2 dogs max if any.


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## CorvusCorax (4 April 2021)

Michen said:



			Making them heel when out for a walk? Why not? I see it as good bits of training for mine, dog/person approaches and she has to heel for the 2 minutes or so as we pass them. Then off she goes.

Different in a park for sure so depends on your walking I guess, my local 1 hr loop I will prob meet 1/2 dogs max if any.
		
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Multiple reasons, far too boring to go into here, but mainly because they're retired. At the very most if I can see a tricky dog approaching I might ask for a behaviour but it's rare TBH.


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## Tiddlypom (4 April 2021)

However well your dog is trained, surely it's good practice to at least take a lead when walking in a public area? Just in case?


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## Michen (4 April 2021)

Tiddlypom said:



			However well your dog is trained, surely it's good practice to at least take a lead when walking in a public area? Just in case?
		
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In case of what? I'd pick her up if there was some sort of emergency but not sure what that could be, other than someone elses dog harrassing her.

She comes out all the time with me on horseback, sometimes I'm riding and leading another horse. Should I not do that?


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## GSD Woman (4 April 2021)

If I'm walking my dogs off lead I always carry a lead for each.  I always keep an eye out for other dogs and call my dogs to me if needed.  Often I just veer off to a side path or turn and go the opposite way. Sometimes we walk in a busy park with my neighbor.  We rarely see an off lead dog.  If we have someone  or a group of someones walking towards us we walk very close to the side of the path.  If the people look afraid of the dogs we step over and have the dogs sit until the people have passed us.  To me this is just being polite and considerate.


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## blackcob (4 April 2021)

Clodagh said:



			Went for a 2 hour walk this morning and only saw one vehicle, and that was a tractor! No people with or without dogs at all.
		
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Where is this paradise and please may I come and live in a tent there? 😜

I can go out on a weekday lunchtime and not necessarily see anyone but weekends are like running a gauntlet of unruly dogs and this BH weekend has been a complete write-off. The irresponsible actions of other dog owners are seriously affecting my enjoyment of dog ownership at the moment. I could be sympathetic to a leash law, though I don’t think it’s anywhere near a complete solution.


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## Moobli (4 April 2021)

Clodagh said:



			I can actually see the pluses to dogs in say parks and busy places being leashed. I also am lucky enough not to have to walk in parks or on crowded beaches. I hate leads and never use them but am very priveleged not to have to put up with the dog behaviours so many of you describe. Went for a 2 hour walk this morning and only saw one vehicle, and that was a tractor! No people with or without dogs at all.
		
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I definitely take the point about leads when walking in crowded parks or busy beaches but the knock-on effect that can happen when anything is banned concerns me.  I’d hate to see the UK go down the route of the US with just designated “dog parks” for off lead exercise.


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## Moobli (4 April 2021)

Michen said:



			I still maintain that any person who owns dogs who can be aggressive should think really hard about walking them in public without a muzzle.
		
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Any dog has the potential to act aggressively.


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## GSD Woman (5 April 2021)

blackcob said:



			I can go out on a weekday lunchtime and not necessarily see anyone but weekends are like running a gauntlet of unruly dogs and this BH weekend has been a complete write-off. The irresponsible actions of other dog owners are seriously affecting my enjoyment of dog ownership at the moment. I could be sympathetic to a leash law, though I don’t think it’s anywhere near a complete solution.
		
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The dogs who need a leash law tend to be owned by the idiots who would ignore it.


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## Michen (5 April 2021)

Moobli said:



			Any dog has the potential to act aggressively.
		
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Sure, but it’s undeniable that some breeds are more prone to it than others, and some dogs will have already shown aggression but still owners won’t take responsibility.  And I’d be surprised if most of the time their owners weren’t aware of it.

Look at the list I posted of fatal Uk dog attacks. It’s the same sort of breeds mostly over and over again.

So why is that? Every dog breed has useless owners who don’t train them. But you don’t see labradors mauling people to death (yes I’m aware they are responsible for the most “bite” claims).  But in some breeds there is far more capacity for it to go really wrong if they aren’t trained or socialised. And it’s there in black and white in the stats.


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## Clodagh (5 April 2021)

blackcob said:



			Where is this paradise and please may I come and live in a tent there? 😜

I can go out on a weekday lunchtime and not necessarily see anyone but weekends are like running a gauntlet of unruly dogs and this BH weekend has been a complete write-off. The irresponsible actions of other dog owners are seriously affecting my enjoyment of dog ownership at the moment. I could be sympathetic to a leash law, though I don’t think it’s anywhere near a complete solution.
		
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You need to go 'urban', I walk near Stansted airport, so as long as you don't mind planes taking the tops of the trees off you don't see a sole. If we ever move somewhere more beauty spot I suspect I'll have a horrible shock.

I absolutely cannot see, and I say this so many times, why we can't have a license law like Australia.

1. Annual dog reg, expensive for entires, cheap for neutered.
2. Coloured dog tag so wardens can see at a glance if you are up to date.
3. Leads on in town.
4. Strict enforcement, on the spot fines, aggressive dogs removed and big fines to get stray dogs back if they wander.
5. Dog wardens everywhere, they are like the police.

On the downside there is no where to walk your dogs, or nowhere near as good as over here, the proper bush is either no dogs or full of dingo bait.


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## Clodagh (5 April 2021)

Tiddlypom said:



			However well your dog is trained, surely it's good practice to at least take a lead when walking in a public area? Just in case?
		
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I never used to but do now, mainly so I can catch someone elses dog if need be. Also we do more road work now, and I have a couple of fields with sheep in on a few routes  and although the dogs don't need to be on a lead near sheep I feel it sends a soothing signal to the farmer. I don't mean that nastily. Ffee is frightenend of sheep


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## Michen (5 April 2021)

Clodagh said:



			I never used to but do now, mainly so I can catch someone elses dog if need be. Also we do more road work now, and I have a couple of fields with sheep in on a few routes  and although the dogs don't need to be on a lead near sheep I feel it sends a soothing signal to the farmer. I don't mean that nastily. Ffee is frightenend of sheep 

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Well I don't take a lead when just out hacking my horse to catch someone elses dog so not sure why I would when walking my dog. I also don't walk on roads or through fields of sheep.

It was drilled in to me right when I started gundog training that you should have a dog well trained enough that if you forget your lead out shooting, it doesn't matter. So that's what I have.

Not sure what other reasons TP may have for needing a lead but very interested to hear what they may be in case I need to change how I do things.


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## Amymay (5 April 2021)

I often take the dogs to where I simply don’t need them on a lead (especially the collie who is Velcro dog and has 100% recall).  But a lead is just another bit of ‘kit’.  If you don’t need it fine, but it’s always sensible to have it slung around your neck.


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## Michen (5 April 2021)

Amymay said:



			I often take the dogs to where I simply don’t need them on a lead (especially the collie who is Velcro dog and has 100% recall).  But a lead is just another bit of ‘kit’.  If you don’t need it fine, but it’s always sensible to have it slung around your neck.
		
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For what scenario though- out of interest? To catch someone elses dog as mentioned above?


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## CorvusCorax (5 April 2021)

Better looking at it than for it.


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## CanteringCarrot (5 April 2021)

Reasons why I carry a lead even though my dog has good training and recall:

I think it's the law that we must put the dog on the lead when we come across another person and/or dog here. I've had some people walking tell me not to worry about it since my Lab listens, but I still do it unless it's someone I know.

I also think it is polite to put the dog on a lead when passing people because some people are nervous about off leash dogs.

Plus if someone's dog on a lead managed to get out of control/away from the owner and attack my off the lead dog...guess who would be blamed?


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## Michen (5 April 2021)

CanteringCarrot said:



			Reasons why I carry a lead even though my dog has good training and recall:

I think it's the law that we must put the dog on the lead when we come across another person and/or dog here. I've had some people walking tell me not to worry about it since my Lab listens, but I still do it unless it's someone I know.

I also think it is polite to put the dog on a lead when passing people because some people are nervous about off leash dogs.

Plus if someone's dog on a lead managed to get out of control/away from the owner and attack my off the lead dog...guess who would be blamed?
		
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Not the law here but I'd support it if it was.

I always have my dog at heel on my left, you probably wouldn't actually notice she wasn't on a lead. If I felt the need for someone elses benefit I'd probably just loop the whistle over her head briefly.

If my dog was being attacked by another dog, I'd rather pick her up out of the way (but she's little!) or her be loose and be able to move out of the way I think. I'm not sure how having her physically attached to me would help that situation. My dog is EXTREMELY submissive though, if she wasn't I can totally understand that part. 

But each to their own, I keep meaning to order some Bisley leads but just haven't got round to it yet.


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## Amymay (5 April 2021)

Michen said:



			For what scenario though- out of interest? To catch someone elses dog as mentioned above?
		
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No, for my dogs.


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## CorvusCorax (5 April 2021)

Just for interest, it was an off lead spaniel that jumped into my garden and chased/scared the shit out of my puppy and has barked at/snapped at both of my older males, both through the garden gate and on leash, they remained neutral (all of one of the breeds listed several times on that Wiki article).


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## Michen (5 April 2021)

CorvusCorax said:



			Just for interest, it was an off lead spaniel that jumped into my garden and chased/scared the shit out of my puppy and has barked at/snapped at both of my older males, both through the garden gate and on leash, they remained neutral (all of one of the breeds listed several times on that Wiki article).
		
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I am not saying that spaniels, labs, greyhounds, whatever can't be aggressive and snappy and cause no end of trouble. Of course they can, all breeds can.

But the breeds responsible for human deaths I'm afraid are more or less the same breeds over and over again. A lab or a spaniel or whatnot may bite- but they are not responsible for mauling humans to deaths.

Your dogs are obviously well trained and socialised. But these breeds, in the wrong hands, are clearly more likely to do serious damage than other breeds.


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## CanteringCarrot (5 April 2021)

Michen said:



			Not the law here but I'd support it if it was.

I always have my dog at heel on my left, you probably wouldn't actually notice she wasn't on a lead. If I felt the need for someone elses benefit I'd probably just loop the whistle over her head briefly.

If my dog was being attacked by another dog, I'd rather pick her up out of the way (but she's little!) or her be loose and be able to move out of the way I think. I'm not sure how having her physically attached to me would help that situation. My dog is EXTREMELY submissive though, if she wasn't I can totally understand that part.

But each to their own, I keep meaning to order some Bisley leads but just haven't got round to it yet.
		
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Yeah, I mean, I get it.

What I meant was that if two dogs get in a fight and one has a lead attached, when it's time to play the blame game for insurance purposes, I'd be to blame, even if my dog was submissive. 

Even if it wasn't the case, it wouldn't be difficult to say "but their dog was off the lead, they obviously instigated" or something like that.

Or maybe that's just how it would go down here. Idk.


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## blackcob (5 April 2021)

Clodagh said:



			You need to go 'urban', I walk near Stansted airport, so as long as you don't mind planes taking the tops of the trees off you don't see a sole. If we ever move somewhere more beauty spot I suspect I'll have a horrible shock.
		
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I think I might have said this on another thread but the place I have encountered the fewest problems is in central London, weirdly enough, and I am lamenting not being able to visit at the moment!



GSD Woman said:



			The dogs who need a leash law tend to be owned by the idiots who would ignore it.
		
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Yup, and it wouldn't be fair on those who do take care to train their dogs and keep them under control. I think I personally could suck it up (plenty of experience of exercising dogs not suitable to go off lead) but I appreciate that many wouldn't. It also does very little to combat fatal attacks by dogs on humans. Also, the concept of designated off-lead dog parks stuffed to the gills with 'he's only being friendlies' is my idea of hell.


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## sportsmansB (5 April 2021)

I'd be really sad if I couldn't walk my very well behaved, and completely disinterested in other dogs, collie in a country park off lead. Walking with her in a scenic place is one of my favourite things to do in the whole world, and exploring different places is one of hers.  Id also need to walk for many, many more miles to give her the exercise that she is accustomed to when she has the freedom to run. She is not reactive at all and just quietly skirts around other dogs and people and carries on on her way, or comes back to me if I ask her to. 
I do usually carry a lead unless it is very early or late but I rarely have to use it. I don't go at busy weekend afternoon times when the place is full of famiies and other people, but thats not because I couldn't trust her but because I'm an anti social so and so. 

I do think the onus should be on the owners of the badly behaved dogs not to ruin it for the rest of us tbh, and I'd rather see more enforcement of dog control legislation to scare those people into keeping their dogs on leads especially in busy and family areas before going fully insisting all dogs on leads.


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## fiwen30 (5 April 2021)

I’d be in full support of an on-lead law.

Personally, I always carry a lead with the same mindset that I’d also carry a crop on a hack, or have a first aid kit in my car - it’s far better to have it and never use it, than to need it and be without.

For those who don’t carry or use a lead - what if something happened to you when out and about, and there was no way for someone to safely capture or restrain your dog?


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## Michen (5 April 2021)

fiwen30 said:



			I’d be in full support of an on-lead law.

Personally, I always carry a lead with the same mindset that I’d also carry a crop on a hack, or have a first aid kit in my car - it’s far better to have it and never use it, than to need it and be without.

For those who don’t carry or use a lead - what if something happened to you when out and about, and there was no way for someone to safely capture or restrain your dog?
		
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What is the necessity to carry a crop? Incase you need to use it on your horse!?

On the flip side, with all the dog thefts particularly with working breeds, I’m unsure I want someone to be able to restrain my dog. A woman ten miles away was walking her dog recently and someone tried to rip the lead out of her hand. Absolutely terrifying.

There are pros and cons, I guess. As with most things.


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## blackcob (5 April 2021)

I guess I'm struggling to envisage a walk where I wouldn't ever need to use a lead at any point? In normal times I have probably more options than most from which to strike out for a walk and I could still reasonably expect to meet roads, sheep, horses, people etc., even from the very remotest of these places.


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## fiwen30 (5 April 2021)

Michen said:



			What is the necessity to carry a crop? Incase you need to use it on your horse!?

On the flip side, with all the dog thefts particularly with working breeds, I’m unsure I want someone to be able to restrain my dog. A woman ten miles away was walking her dog recently and someone tried to rip the lead out of her hand. Absolutely terrifying.

There are pros and cons, I guess. As with most things.
		
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No, precisely the *opposite*. Just because someone never uses a lead in their dog, doesn’t mean it’s not prudent to carry one. They’re a tool, just like a crop.

I’m pretty sure I don’t need to laundry list the uses for a crop outside of ‘using it on your horse’ for you.


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## Odyssey (5 April 2021)

Michen said:



			Of course all dogs should be trained. That's a given. Look at the terrier that attacked the seal in London then bit a person trying to get it off the seal.

But what has been mentioned is the need to be able to physically restrain a dog, to prevent a potential problem. That has been mentioned. At the risk of repeating myself, if you had a dog sound in tempermant, why would this be a concern? It wouldn't.

I know it's unlikely but things happen. Lets say you tripped and fell over and dropped the lead and someone came to help you. If you can't trust that your dog in that situation won't do anything to hurt another person, or dog, it should be muzzled.

That's just my opinion. And it goes for any breed.
		
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I agree. Aggressive dogs need to be muzzled too, just being on the lead isn't sufficiently under control. There are times when people have to pass each other in close proximity, for one thing.There's a path leading into woods that I used to walk my dog in, till he was attacked and injured and I became too scared of aggressive dogs to go there. It's only a couple of metres wide, so an aggressive on lead dog could so easily lunge at, and get hold of another dog. It's the same with footpaths on arable land, which are often even narrower. There's just nowhere to go, so muzzles are as necessary as leads.

My dog was attacked and badly injured years ago by a GSD which was wearing a headcollar, which broke as it surged at my dog. If it had been muzzled, my dog would probably have escaped injury. I've heard of aggressive dogs being able to attack other animals even with muzzles on, but if they're on lead too, it's obviously the safest option. Nothing is 100% infallible, and if people walk aggressive dogs in public, they should have the decency to keep them under full control.

I so wish that people trained their dogs not to run up to on lead dogs, or if they can't do that, kept them on the lead. Mine is scared of dogs bouncing up to him since he was attacked, and in any case many dogs feel defensive when on lead, which most people seem to be unaware of.


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## Clodagh (5 April 2021)

Michen said:



			What is the necessity to carry a crop? Incase you need to use it on your horse!?

On the flip side, with all the dog thefts particularly with working breeds, I’m unsure I want someone to be able to restrain my dog. A woman ten miles away was walking her dog recently and someone tried to rip the lead out of her hand. Absolutely terrifying.

There are pros and cons, I guess. As with most things.
		
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I'm not sure that you are not arguing for the sake of it but anyway. I don't use a lead on a days shooting but I always have one with me. It would be like going hunting without a hunting whip, you may do so but I was always bought up that you hunted with a whip. I always have a lead in a pocket.
It is very difficult to leave your house and not do any road work at all. We have a farm and I still cross roads. I don't leash the dogs to cross them but I do to walk along them. A load of cyclists went past today, I hadn't heard their approach (windy) and was glad that the dogs didn't jump into their path as they were startled. 
It doesn't make me look incompetent, using a lead, or if it does I can live with that.


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## Michen (5 April 2021)

blackcob said:



			I guess I'm struggling to envisage a walk where I wouldn't ever need to use a lead at any point? In normal times I have probably more options than most from which to strike out for a walk and I could still reasonably expect to meet roads, sheep, horses, people etc., even from the very remotest of these places.
		
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I have a gate at the back of my house through woods which then connects onto a footpath. 

Genuinely curious- do none of you take your dogs out with your horses? In which case they need to be 100% in all situations without use of a lead (unless you get off your horse and on again?)


I would say half of the week I am hacking with dog, so maybe I am just not used to popping leads on and off with ease. If I meet other people or dogs or horses on foot, she’s called to heel. If I’m on horseback it’s “come in” or “stay back” depending if I want her to go in front or drop behind. I can’t just be getting on and off to slip leads on when I’m on horseback, so I don’t feel the need to do it when I’m on the ground either. 

I do respect the point about if something happened to me, that’s something I’ll need to think about and also weigh up the dog theft bit.


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## Michen (5 April 2021)

Clodagh said:



			I'm not sure that you are not arguing for the sake of it but anyway. I don't use a lead on a days shooting but I always have one with me. It would be like going hunting without a hunting whip, you may do so but I was always bought up that you hunted with a whip. I always have a lead in a pocket.
It is very difficult to leave your house and not do any road work at all. We have a farm and I still cross roads. I don't leash the dogs to cross them but I do to walk along them. A load of cyclists went past today, I hadn't heard their approach (windy) and was glad that the dogs didn't jump into their path as they were startled. 
It doesn't make me look incompetent, using a lead, or if it does I can live with that.
		
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Not arguing for the sake of it at all. I just wasn’t sure about how a crop and a lead we’re relevant to eachother in terms of necessity. Nor do I think it’s anything to do with competence!

You said earlier you never used to take a lead and now you do. So circumstances or feelings have obviously changed for you over the years. Perhaps my position is similar?


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## palo1 (5 April 2021)

Michen said:



			I have a gate at the back of my house through woods which then connects onto a footpath.

Genuinely curious- do none of you take your dogs out with your horses? In which case they need to be 100% in all situations without use of a lead (unless you get off your horse and on again?)


I would say half of the week I am hacking with dog, so maybe I am just not used to popping leads on and off with ease. If I meet other people or dogs or horses on foot, she’s called to heel. If I’m on horseback it’s “come in” or “stay back” depending if I want her to go in front or drop behind. I can’t just be getting on and off to slip leads on when I’m on horseback, so I don’t feel the need to do it when I’m on the ground either.

I do respect the point about if something happened to me, that’s something I’ll need to think about and also weigh up the dog theft bit.
		
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I hack out with my dog often - on quiet lanes and tracks though I haven't yet done open hill with dog and horses.  I meet people and vehicles.  Red IT has great recall; when I am on the horse probably even better than when I am on foot.  We pass various dogs in their gardens, ungated entrances etc and have to pull in for vehicles to pass and sometimes other horses on bridleways etc. Red has to understand at various times to recall immediately as well as the 'wait' command which is sometimes safer or 'better' in some way.  A dog for doing this safely MUST be very reliable and considered as safe as possible with people, other dogs, vehicles and stock - it's not a particularly easy ask nor is it the kind of 'usual' training that dogs in the UK get tbh.  Red hasn't learnt a lot of things because I am not especially good at dog training but he has learnt all that he needs to do to live our lifestyle.  I wouldn't say he is particularly brilliant but probably quite good for a terrier type!!  However I am aware that all dogs are fallible so I do carry a lead.  I have never needed to use it but if need be and in an emergency of some kind I would get off the horse, put the dog on the lead and walk with both for whatever distance was required.  It just seems like a very simple safety 'tool'  if you like!  It also can help to reassure my neighbours that I am not as 'casual' as it may appear and that I CAN if requested or required, physically restrain the dog.  No one has ever suggested this btw but I sort of think it is good modern manners.  If I am riding and leading and taking the dog then I will take an extra lead rein and a dog lead.  I am very aware that with multiple animals, multiple things may go awry!!


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## blackcob (5 April 2021)

Not quite from home but I can leave the farm directly on to open moorland and even stay off the bridleways and byways so as not to meet riders or cyclists but there's pretty much nowhere to go that doesn't have sheep or wild ponies. While I'm as sure as I can be that my youngest dog wouldn't chase either, the farmers don't know that and I personally don't think it's worth the risk of something going wrong, same reason I won't hack out with a dog either. Possibly doesn't help that until recently I always had to ride and lead so no spare hand free if the shit did hit the fan.

Are we looking at leads from different POVs here? Collective we really, not just Michen and I. I know that some will consider them as something akin to punishment or a mark of lack of training, I am more of the school of thought that they're a tool and for safety.


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## Clodagh (5 April 2021)

Michen said:



			Not arguing for the sake of it at all. I just wasn’t sure about how a crop and a lead we’re relevant to eachother in terms of necessity. Nor do I think it’s anything to do with competence!

You said earlier you never used to take a lead and now you do. So circumstances or feelings have obviously changed for you over the years. Perhaps my position is similar?
		
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My position has changed, yes. I only used to walk on the farm or on two long loops, none of which required more than crossing straight over lanes. When Lockdown I started we really started walking a lot further, so roads, and then two fields had sheep put on them so needed leads for those.
I used to hack out with my lurcher, but she was so bad and used to vanish quite often, so although we went round the roads it was only early on a weekend morning I could take her and honestly, at the risk of sounding ancient, there was so much less traffic round here 20 years ago. I wouldn't hack on our lane now, close to airport, single lane and high banks so you can't get off the road.

And nothing against debate or argument for the sake of it, surely that is why we are here?

Blackcob - to my dogs the lead is a punishment, they generally only used to go on it to go the the vets, so lead came out 'Oh no really bad day ahead'. It has improved after paragraph 1 above. They will not poo or wee on it though, if we go away with them being on the lead means don't go here as we hustle to a non pavement area, and with hindsight thats not a good lesson but to them lead means cross your legs.


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## splashgirl45 (5 April 2021)

Michen said:



			I am not saying that spaniels, labs, greyhounds, whatever can't be aggressive and snappy and cause no end of trouble. Of course they can, all breeds can.

But the breeds responsible for human deaths I'm afraid are more or less the same breeds over and over again. A lab or a spaniel or whatnot may bite- but they are not responsible for mauling humans to deaths.

Your dogs are obviously well trained and socialised. But these breeds, in the wrong hands, are clearly more likely to do serious damage than other breeds.
		
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agree that list has the same breeds over and over again, but the reason a certain type of person gets these dogs is that they can be used in the same way as using a gun or knife. its very sad for the dogs and for people who own these types of dogs for the right reason.  there are a few rottie,staffie,gsd owners on here whose dogs would never harm anyone but the breeds are tarnished with the same brush as the  others.  i am not keen on the look of staffies but know a few who i meet regularly and they are very people and dog friendly and a credit to the breed.  i like rotties and gsds but hardly ever see either breed round here.. we just seem to have loads of nutty poodle crosses


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## Michen (5 April 2021)

splashgirl45 said:



			agree that list has the same breeds over and over again, but the reason a certain type of person gets these dogs is that they can be used in the same way as using a gun or knife. its very sad for the dogs and for people who own these types of dogs for the right reason.  there are a few rottie,staffie,gsd owners on here whose dogs would never harm anyone but the breeds are tarnished with the same brush as the  others.  i am not keen on the look of staffies but know a few who i meet regularly and they are very people and dog friendly and a credit to the breed.  i like rotties and gsds but hardly ever see either breed round here.. we just seem to have loads of nutty poodle crosses

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But “certain type of people” have all types of dogs. And it’s not other breeds that are showing up on that list. 

Of course there are people on here with lovely versions of the breed, but I just don’t see how anyone can argue that there aren’t some breeds of dogs more likely to be aggressive than others if they are bought up wrong (or even if they aren’t). And to me that list speaks volumes.


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## splashgirl45 (5 April 2021)

thee certain type of people i am thinking of dont have other breeds unless they are being used as bait.


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## Tiddlypom (5 April 2021)

Michen said:



			Not sure what other reasons TP may have for needing a lead but very interested to hear what they may be in case I need to change how I do things.
		
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I think that most points I was thinking of have been covered pretty well in other replies. No matter how good your dog's recall is, it is still good practice to bring a lead. A lead is more use in an emergency if it is brought along rather than left hung on a hook at home.

Maybe a field you cross regularly unexpectedly has sheep put on it, and surely everyone out walking puts their dog on a lead when crossing fields containing farm animals? It is a courtesy to hard pressed farmers, who may not know that your immaculately trained at heel dog would never chase them, when maybe he lost 10 ewes to an off lead dog attack the week before. Also, some people are genuinely frightened of dogs, so if you come across other walkers in a tight spot, IMHO it's polite to pop your dog briefly on a lead as you pass.

If a dog thinks that a lead is 'punishment', then surely that is a gap in the training? All dogs should accept a lead. In any case, if the dog ever needed slow rehab after an injury of some sort, then it may need to be walked only on a lead for some weeks, so it is best that it already knows and is comfortable about leads.


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## Pearlsasinger (5 April 2021)

Michen said:



			In case of what? I'd pick her up if there was some sort of emergency but not sure what that could be, other than someone elses dog harrassing her.

She comes out all the time with me on horseback, sometimes I'm riding and leading another horse. Should I not do that?
		
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I don't think that anyone should take a dog hacking with them.  You can't get hold of the dog from on top of the horse - and no-one can guarantee their dog's behaviour under all circumstances, no matter how well trained it is.  I hate to see dogs wandering along the side of the road yards behind a horse, whose rider can't possibly know exactly what the dog is doing.  Of course if you ride on your own land, that is totally different.


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## Pearlsasinger (5 April 2021)

Clodagh said:



			I never used to but do now, mainly so I can catch someone elses dog if need be. Also we do more road work now, and I have a couple of fields with sheep in on a few routes  and although the dogs don't need to be on a lead near sheep I feel it sends a soothing signal to the farmer. I don't mean that nastily. Ffee is frightenend of sheep 

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It doesn't just send a signal to the farmer but also to other dog walkers, that they need to put their own dogs on a lead.


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## palo1 (5 April 2021)

Pearlsasinger said:



			I don't think that anyone should take a dog hacking with them.  You can't get hold of the dog from on top of the horse - and no-one can guarantee their dog's behaviour under all circumstances, no matter how well trained it is.  I hate to see dogs wandering along the side of the road yards behind a horse, whose rider can't possibly know exactly what the dog is doing.  Of course if you ride on your own land, that is totally different.
		
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This is an interesting perspective Pearlsasinger and having had more tricky/less reliable dogs in the past I entirely understand your point.  In these parts - pretty rural Welsh borders, it is incredibly common to see people riding with their dogs alongside too.  I am cautious with my chap and he is always wearing hi viz as I would hate for him to be injured but many many people are able to hack out with their dogs with no problems in my experience.  I think most of those people can anticipate very reliably exactly how their dog will behave - similar to how we know how our horses are likely to behave.


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## Michen (5 April 2021)

Tiddlypom said:



			I think that most points I was thinking of have been covered pretty well in other replies. No matter how good your dog's recall is, it is still good practice to bring a lead. A lead is more use in an emergency if it is brought along rather than left hung on a hook at home.

Maybe a field you cross regularly unexpectedly has sheep put on it, and surely everyone out walking puts their dog on a lead when crossing fields containing farm animals? It is a courtesy to hard pressed farmers, who may not know that your immaculately trained at heel dog would never chase them, when maybe he lost 10 ewes to an off lead dog attack the week before. Also, some people are genuinely frightened of dogs, so if you come across other walkers in a tight spot, IMHO it's polite to pop your dog briefly on a lead as you pass.

If a dog thinks that a lead is 'punishment', then surely that is a gap in the training? All dogs should accept a lead. In any case, if the dog ever needed slow rehab after an injury of some sort, then it may need to be walked only on a lead for some weeks, so it is best that it already knows and is comfortable about leads.
		
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I don’t recall anyone saying their dog thinks a lead is punishment!?


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## blackcob (5 April 2021)

Pearlsasinger said:



			It doesn't just send a signal to the farmer but also to other dog walkers, that they need to put their own dogs on a lead.
		
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Now that's an interesting thought - do we have a moral duty to model appropriate behaviour for other dog owners?


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## Michen (5 April 2021)

Pearlsasinger said:



			I don't think that anyone should take a dog hacking with them.  You can't get hold of the dog from on top of the horse - and no-one can guarantee their dog's behaviour under all circumstances, no matter how well trained it is.  I hate to see dogs wandering along the side of the road yards behind a horse, whose rider can't possibly know exactly what the dog is doing.  Of course if you ride on your own land, that is totally different.
		
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Ah well, I very much enjoy taking my dog with me and she is trained to walk either in front or behind (if there’s a spooky thing to the horses ahead I prefer her to drop back) depending on where I need her to be. Mainly in front. I’m not sure why that would mean I don’t know what she’s doing, given I can always see her bar specific circumstances for her own safety. 

Each to their own, I love taking the dog out with the horses


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## Clodagh (5 April 2021)

I used to love taking Sash out too, although her behaviour was often appalling. She was OK with cars though and stayed at the side of the road. We saw very few cars though, I'd be out by 7am on a weekend and a car was really rare.


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## Clodagh (5 April 2021)

blackcob said:



			Now that's an interesting thought - do we have a moral duty to model appropriate behaviour for other dog owners?
		
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I put mine on a lead to reassure the farmer. Although actually they are grazing on one of our fields so I could tell him to deal. Do I do it so I am seen to be doing the right thing? Yes so I guess that extends to other walkers as well. At least if I ask them to put their dogs on a lead I am doing so myself. And the farmer has had trouble with dogs, he lost a ewe last year who drowned in the river when chased by another local's dog.


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## Tiddlypom (5 April 2021)

Michen said:



			I don’t recall anyone saying their dog thinks a lead is punishment!?
		
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It's something that's been brought up by a couple of posters. All our dogs have been used to going on lead, so it's not something I've considered before, but I picked up on it.


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## Michen (5 April 2021)

Pearlsasinger said:



			I don't think that anyone should take a dog hacking with them.  You can't get hold of the dog from on top of the horse - and no-one can guarantee their dog's behaviour under all circumstances, no matter how well trained it is.  I hate to see dogs wandering along the side of the road yards behind a horse, whose rider can't possibly know exactly what the dog is doing.  Of course if you ride on your own land, that is totally different.
		
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A video from this eve of how my dog hacks with me. Not the best example! This is also the position (ish- prefer her a little further in front)  she’s called to when other dogs/horses etc are coming the other way. 

I also wouldn’t take a dog hacking with me that wasn’t 100% on the stop whistle and hand signal and that didn’t know left (so I can send her into the hedge to sit and wait if there’s a car. 

Don’t assume all people who hack with their dogs have them running around behind them like lunatics!

https://youtube.com/shorts/hpLGWx4jbzA


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## Sandstone1 (5 April 2021)

It very much depends where you live and what the roads are like.  No way would I take my dogs with me.   Its dangerous enough on the roads without worrying about dogs as well as traffic.
No animal, horse or dog can be 100% on the roads.  There will always be the odd time that they do something unexpected.


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## Michen (5 April 2021)

Sandstone1 said:



			It very much depends where you live and what the roads are like.  No way would I take my dogs with me.   Its dangerous enough on the roads without worrying about dogs as well as traffic.
No animal, horse or dog can be 100% on the roads.  There will always be the odd time that they do something unexpected.
		
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Agree, there are plenty of hacks I wouldn’t take my dog on! It depends entirely on the situation. And the dog. I’ve been very lucky with mine, she’s been incredibly easy to train. But I only know one other dog I would happily take out with me (a lab that I look after for chunks of the year) and it was her that set the example as to what I needed to ensure Pepper had before I could have her out with me. 

It’s not for everyone, I totally get that, but I’ve put a huge amount of effort into having my dog do the things I need her to do to come out with the horses. As much effort as I have into training my horses on the roads. And she’s far more trustworthy 😂

I was more referring to PaS point about dogs behind and out of sight. Which I completely agree with, but isn’t how all of us hack with our dogs.


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## tallyho! (5 April 2021)

Happened to be having chats with a few people in the community tonight... did a litter pick with them last week (p.s. The amount of dog poo in bags "carefully placed" by lamposts and gates is just unbelievable)

Back on topic. So the license was brought up and 100% agreed with although a couple said that these wouldn't stop the whole trained and controlled issue we see so widely in our parts. That is true I thought. Licenses only allow people to own a dog by paying a ransom (although it would pay me a fancy sum to pick up shit!) but not address the whole training issue. So there was chat about maybe there ought to be a certification....

1. raises funds for strays, wardens and rescues
2. raises awareness and education
3. raises responsibility levels
4. raises funds for policing

11 million dogs they reckon in the UK at that's the ones registered (2 million increase since 2019). Imagine the funds that could raise?

They ought to look into it with indiscriminate horse breeders too!


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## Pearlsasinger (5 April 2021)

Sandstone1 said:



			It very much depends where you live and what the roads are like.  No way would I take,  my dogs with me.   Its dangerous enough on the roads without worrying about dogs as well as traffic.
No animal, horse or dog can be 100% on the roads.  There will always be the odd time that they do something unexpected.
		
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There is a by-law here that all dogs should b e on a lead on council owned property which includes roads and yet i see people hacking with a loose dog.  The roads here are narrow and busy, definitely not safe for a dog which could do anything regardless of what the owner says.  How any times have we all heard some numpty saying 'Oh he's never done that before'?


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## Michen (5 April 2021)

Pearlsasinger said:



			There is a by-law here that all dogs should b e on a lead on council owned property which includes roads and yet i see people hacking with a loose dog.  The roads here are narrow and busy, definitely not safe for a dog which could do anything regardless of what the owner says.  How any times have we all heard some numpty saying 'Oh he's never done that before'?
		
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Oh dear 🙄😂


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## Annette4 (5 April 2021)

I am sending my boy to one of you, 3 years and I have barely any recall around other dogs (which is why he is only off lead at privately rented paddocks or sports training). He's hand fed, he's getting to the point where he will engage with me to play frisbee/ball with other dogs on the park as long as they stay at a certain distance but he cannot handle the excitement of other dogs.


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## planete (5 April 2021)

Annette4 said:



			I am sending my boy to one of you, 3 years and I have barely any recall around other dogs (which is why he is only off lead at privately rented paddocks or sports training). He's hand fed, he's getting to the point where he will engage with me to play frisbee/ball with other dogs on the park as long as they stay at a certain distance but he cannot handle the excitement of other dogs.
		
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Don't worry, you are not alone.  My ex-working lurchers are never off lead unless in a dog-proof area.  It really depends on the dog, my Border Terrier I had from a pup always came with me hacking on the Forest and never put a foot wrong, he could even deal by himself with nuisance dogs and keep them away from the horse, but no training will turn my lurchers into the same kind of dog.


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## Sussexbythesea (5 April 2021)

Michen said:



			A video from this eve of how my dog hacks with me. Not the best example! This is also the position (ish- prefer her a little further in front)  she’s called to when other dogs/horses etc are coming the other way.

I also wouldn’t take a dog hacking with me that wasn’t 100% on the stop whistle and hand signal and that didn’t know left (so I can send her into the hedge to sit and wait if there’s a car.

Don’t assume all people who hack with their dogs have them running around behind them like lunatics!

https://youtube.com/shorts/hpLGWx4jbzA

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I take mine out with me all the time. He wears a hi-viz when out. I’ve usually got more control of my dog from my horse than people have with theirs on the ground. I nearly always keep him ahead of me so that I can see what he’s doing.  He’s very obedient and very sweet natured but there is a certain element of risk that something could go wrong but one that I’ve weighed up taking various things into consideration. Most of our hacks avoid sheep but if I come across any I usually get off and put on a lead. My spooky ginger horse will follow Chance almost anywhere but is a toad on his own. 



http://imgur.com/e7gbwZR


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## paddy555 (5 April 2021)

Sandstone1 said:



			It very much depends where you live and what the roads are like.  No way would I take my dogs with me.   Its dangerous enough on the roads without worrying about dogs as well as traffic.
No animal, horse or dog can be 100% on the roads.  There will always be the odd time that they do something unexpected.
		
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no way would I take my dog riding. The roads are narrow, I am often squeezing past cars and tractors with inches to spare. I haven't got time to worry about if the dog is under the tractor wheels. 
On an average ride I could well be riding through 50 or more loose sheep, cattle and ponies. Often I am riding down the single track road through half a dozen sheep or 20 cattle. My aim is to keep them as calm as possible so I can wind my way through them. 
All of that is before I even think about the bikes overtaking and undertaking.


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## YorksG (5 April 2021)

Those who hack with their dogs, how do you remove the inevitable poo?


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## DabDab (5 April 2021)

I have a proper town dog who used to trot about town with me not on lead, always at heel (when we lived there). But I always have a lead with me and have far more cause to put her on lead when walking around the forest than in town. In the forest Lab and spaniel owners are quite honestly the bane of my life. They are almost never on lead and the owners see no need to recall them when I put mine on a lead and try to move out the way, they just continue to let them galavant around crashing through the undergrowth. I don't like labs near my dogs particularly. My parents dog was attacked by a couple 13 years ago while I was looking after him, they almost killed him and he lost a leg. They were a pair of labs that the owner hacked out with too - after the attack she took to putting a muzzle on one of them 🤷


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## Sandstone1 (5 April 2021)

YorksG said:



			Those who hack with their dogs, how do you remove the inevitable poo?
		
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Thats a very good question.


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## Michen (5 April 2021)

YorksG said:



			Those who hack with their dogs, how do you remove the inevitable poo?
		
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Ha, I feed my dog on raw and she poos once a day in Bears stable in the morning. But otherwise yes- that would be an issue!


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## Sussexbythesea (5 April 2021)

YorksG said:



			Those who hack with their dogs, how do you remove the inevitable poo?
		
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I don’t need to where I ride but I do pick up lots of dog poo bags and other rubbish left by on foot dog walkers and others using the park. Today I walked one of my riding routes and took my loppers to cut down some overhanging branches. I also picked up 7 full nappy bags worth of litter including dog poo. I’ve picked up over 70 full poo bags in the same area over the past few weeks. 

Today’s haul.


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## Smitty (6 April 2021)

There has been a suggestion on another group that it becomes compulsory for all dogs to have insurance, with different breeds having different category insurance based on risk of aggression.   As it doesn't work with cars I see less reason for it to work with dogs.  

As an avid freeads browser, I have seen an increasing number of cross breed pups for sale that could do some real damage and I'm sure they don't all go to responsible homes with owners prepared to train and take responsibility for them.

As for leads, well!!   I have had encounters with owners of powerful on lead dogs who are merely being dragged about and I believe there was a small dog ripped apart by two on lead large dogs in the Cotswolds in the last few days.  The owner was apparently as aggressive as the dogs 😞.


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## Arzada (6 April 2021)

Smitty said:



			There has been a suggestion on another group that it becomes compulsory for all dogs to have insurance,
		
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I can't think why anyone out in public wouldn't have appropriate 3rd party liability insurance. And at home if you don't have house insurance.


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## Clodagh (6 April 2021)

YorksG said:



			Those who hack with their dogs, how do you remove the inevitable poo?
		
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I never used to hack where poo needed picking up. I now never walk where it needs doing either.


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## Sandstone1 (6 April 2021)

Clodagh said:



			I never used to hack where poo needed picking up. I now never walk where it needs doing either.
		
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I think it needs picking up everywhere?   I pick up on footpaths, bridleways, roads fields etc.  It is a offence not to pick up. The only place you dont have to is on your own land.  Even if not the law its a moral obligation surely?  Nothing worse than owners who dont pick up.


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## planete (6 April 2021)

Until recently, we were told to flick it off the paths in the New Forest but the advice seems to have changed lately to picking it up.  Again, I think it is to do with the sheer volume of dog walkers who now congregate here. This is a smaller issue than agression though.


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## YorksG (6 April 2021)

planete said:



			Until recently, we were told to flick it off the paths in the New Forest but the advice seems to have changed lately to picking it up.  Again, I think it is to do with the sheer volume of dog walkers who now congregate here. This is a smaller issue than agression though.
		
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I tend to disagree, very few dogs are people aggressive, they all produce poo!


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## planete (6 April 2021)

YorksG said:



			I tend to disagree, very few dogs are people aggressive, they all produce poo!
		
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 Well, Perhaps 'small' was the wrong word but i would rather deal with poo than teeth!


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## Smitty (6 April 2021)

Arzada said:



			I can't think why anyone out on public wouldn't have appropriate 3rd party liability insurance. And at home if you don't have house insurance.
		
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And I can't think why anyone would drive an uninsured car but they do.  And I think it safe to assume there are aggressive dogs out in public whose owners wouldn't consider insurance, and if it became compulsory, would still not bother.


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## Michen (6 April 2021)

The beauty of HHO a thread going from aggressive dogs, to whether you should carry a lead if you never use it, to whether you should hack with your dog, to dog poo (with a bit of feeding thrown in there), to insurance. All in 6 pages 😂


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## Amymay (6 April 2021)

Sandstone1 said:



			I think it needs picking up everywhere?   I pick up on footpaths, bridleways, roads fields etc.  It is a offence not to pick up. The only place you dont have to is on your own land.  Even if not the law its a moral obligation surely?  Nothing worse than owners who dont pick up.
		
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That’s actually not the case. You are required to pick it up on pavements and public parks/spaces.  However, forestry is exempt - where stick and flick is the expectation. As are many public footpaths - again where stick and flick is recommended.


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## Sandstone1 (6 April 2021)

Amymay said:



			That’s actually not the case. You are required to pick it up on pavements and public parks/spaces.  However, forestry is exempt - where stick and flick is the expectation. As are many public footpaths - again where stick and flick is recommended.
		
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Stick and flick possibly quite difficult from a horse?  I did say its a moral obligation if not legal.


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## Amymay (6 April 2021)

Sandstone1 said:



*Stick and flick possibly quite difficult from a horse?*  I did say its a moral obligation if not legal.
		
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Yep, completely agree with you.


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## Clodagh (6 April 2021)

Sandstone1 said:



			Stick and flick possibly quite difficult from a horse?  I did say its a moral obligation if not legal.
		
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Well it has absolutely never occurred to me to traipse over a bit of rough grass to pick up a dog poo. They don't go on tarmac and are on leads in livestock fields so as far as I'm concerned job done.


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## Tiddlypom (6 April 2021)

Well, if you're on your own land you can do what you like , but it is advised that dog poo is picked up from livestock fields.

https://www.nfus.org.uk/news/news/dog-walkers-urged-to-clean-up-faeces-on-farmland

_Neosporosis can cause abortions in cattle and is thought to be responsible for the highest percentage of all cattle abortions reported in the UK. Neospora eggs are produced by infected dogs and excreted in their faeces. Cattle will then become infected if they eat food, i.e. grass, or drink water contaminated with the eggs.
Sarcocystosis is also caused by parasites, which can use dogs as intermediate hosts, and similarly the eggs are produced and excreted in faeces.
_


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## Michen (6 April 2021)

Tiddlypom said:



			Well, if you're on your own land you can do what you like , but it is advised that dog poo is picked up from livestock fields.

https://www.nfus.org.uk/news/news/dog-walkers-urged-to-clean-up-faeces-on-farmland

_Neosporosis can cause abortions in cattle and is thought to be responsible for the highest percentage of all cattle abortions reported in the UK. Neospora eggs are produced by infected dogs and excreted in their faeces. Cattle will then become infected if they eat food, i.e. grass, or drink water contaminated with the eggs.
Sarcocystosis is also caused by parasites, which can use dogs as intermediate hosts, and similarly the eggs are produced and excreted in faeces._

Click to expand...

I think thats what Clodagh meant, they are on leads so don't poo in livestock fields.

Honestly though, do many people's dogs just poo in the middle of a path (well, I know some do, as they bloody leave it there) !? On the rare mine doesn't do her morning routine in the stable if I've not been up, mine has to take herself off into a hedge or somewhere very much off track and find the "exact" right spot which is where I suppose other people flick it too!


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## palo1 (6 April 2021)

Tiddlypom said:



			Well, if you're on your own land you can do what you like , but it is advised that dog poo is picked up from livestock fields.

https://www.nfus.org.uk/news/news/dog-walkers-urged-to-clean-up-faeces-on-farmland

_Neosporosis can cause abortions in cattle and is thought to be responsible for the highest percentage of all cattle abortions reported in the UK. Neospora eggs are produced by infected dogs and excreted in their faeces. Cattle will then become infected if they eat food, i.e. grass, or drink water contaminated with the eggs.
Sarcocystosis is also caused by parasites, which can use dogs as intermediate hosts, and similarly the eggs are produced and excreted in faeces._

Click to expand...

This is a horrible infection causing considerable damage when it strikes.  Farmers, including my family, however, rarely pick up their dog's poo however and when questioned (my Brother in Law has 7 sheepdogs - all needed and all well looked after) he tells me that as his dogs are wormed and treated correctly HE doesn't need to pick up the dog mess.  But walkers on the footpath must.  This is confusing to both of us and I think we both know that in fact, my Brother in Law doesn't pick up his dog mess because that would be essentially really tricky (7 sheepdogs all out doing different stuff at different times would probably need him to be a professional poo-finder and picker-up) and actually his cattle have never had neosporosis so he doesn't feel that it is vital.   Thankfully my dogs have always pooed incredibly predictably at home, and none have wanted to poo anywhere 'public' (other than a greyhound who always wanted to poo in the most incredibly public places years ago; I never went anywhere without poobags and apologies when he was alive lol!!)  I do think that this assertion/assumption that 'other' dogs/visiting dogs carry disease can be rather tricky actually...


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## Michen (6 April 2021)

palo1 said:



			This is a horrible infection causing considerable damage when it strikes.  Farmers, including my family, however, rarely pick up their dog's poo however and when questioned (my Brother in Law has 7 sheepdogs - all needed and all well looked after) he tells me that as his dogs are wormed and treated correctly HE doesn't need to pick up the dog mess.  But walkers on the footpath must.  This is confusing to both of us and I think we both know that in fact, my Brother in Law doesn't pick up his dog mess because that would be essentially really tricky (7 sheepdogs all out doing different stuff at different times would probably need him to be a professional poo-finder and picker-up) and actually his cattle have never had neosporosis so he doesn't feel that it is vital.   Thankfully my dogs have always pooed incredibly predictably at home, and none have wanted to poo anywhere 'public' (other than a greyhound who always wanted to poo in the most incredibly public places years ago; I never went anywhere without poobags and apologies when he was alive lol!!)  I do think that this assertion/assumption that 'other' dogs/visiting dogs carry disease can be rather tricky actually...
		
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Predictable pooing is a godsend and I fully attribute that to raw feeding Pepper!


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## Sandstone1 (6 April 2021)

If you have a dog pick up after it, its not just that it can spread disease and cause blindness in some cases its pretty anti social not to do it.  Not nice to tread in or for little kids to stand it fall in etc or get on pram push chair wheels etc etc, people let dogs do it in crops, that might be in your food or your horses hay.....
Yes dogs do in in the middle of footpaths.  some are also fed absolute crap from the size and looks of some of it


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## palo1 (6 April 2021)

Michen said:



			Predictable pooing is a godsend and I fully attribute that to raw feeding Pepper!
		
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Yes, Red IT is also raw fed and incredibly predictable and sparing with the poo thankfully!!


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## palo1 (6 April 2021)

Sandstone1 said:



			If you have a dog pick up after it, its not just that it can spread disease and cause blindness in some cases its pretty anti social not to do it.  Not nice to tread in or for little kids to stand it fall in etc or get on pram push chair wheels etc etc, people let dogs do it in crops, that might be in your food or your horses hay.....
Yes dogs do in in the middle of footpaths.  some are also fed absolute crap from the size and looks of some of it
		
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Yes, everyone with a dog needs to be responsible.  I do sometimes wonder about the quantity that farm dogs produce as a great many of them are fed on really quite poor (but cheap) food.  If you need many dogs though - as folk round here do if they are grazing the mountains there isn't a very handy or cost effective way round that sadly and farmers seem to have lost the knack of feeding raw as they did historically.  Of course, at lambing time a lot of sheepdogs get fed dead lambs, afterbirth etc. But that doesn't generally make a difference to the poo they produce all year.  Crap dog food is not great for any of us!!

ETA - I wasn't intending to suggest that everyone should necessarily feed their dogs raw - sorry if that is how it seems here. I was just musing that historically working dogs probably had more raw meat and bones in their diet as that was the cheapest way to feed them and that probably reduced the amount of poo being produced.


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## CorvusCorax (6 April 2021)

I'm just back from walking a mountain road (I'm visiting my mother) he's the less reliable of the adults but he sits and downs at distance on command so I can catch up with him, it is well fenced, no livestock out and I can see for miles, the dog went a couple of times on the verge, I bagged/lifted it, it went in my pocket and into back of van then in bin when I got home. I hate seeing old dog crap lying around and if everyone left it, well, urgh.


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## blackcob (6 April 2021)

This is impressive derailment even for us. 😂

FWIW I didn't think the poo debate even existed, the default is that you pick it up, right? With the exception of your own land, although when I go visiting and am on 'my' patch I still pick it up, 'cos that's where the horses eat and there's never fewer than five dogs about so we'd be up to our eyeballs in turds quite rapidly, raw diet or no.


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## Tiddlypom (6 April 2021)

palo1 said:



			I do think that this assertion/assumption that 'other' dogs/visiting dogs carry disease can be rather tricky actually...
		
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Which assertion/assumption that it is other/visiting dogs? I was referring to any dogs.


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## palo1 (6 April 2021)

Tiddlypom said:



			Which assertion/assumption that it is other/visiting dogs? I was referring to any dogs.
		
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Sorry - didn't mean to suggest that you said that!  I was just musing about the way that 'some' dog turds are ok and others are not...


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## Clodagh (6 April 2021)

Well I’m truly astounded! Every days a school day. In summer poo is gone in a day or so. We have 8 dogs on the farm and you rarely see a poo. 
They go maybe 95% on our land which may up the ante but no I’m not picking it up.


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## Michen (6 April 2021)

Think we should do a poll on what’s more outrageous. Walking your dog without carrying a lead “just in case”, hacking with your dog, not picking up dog poo 😂

2/3- I’m guilty!


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## Clodagh (6 April 2021)

Michen said:



			Think we should do a poll on what’s more outrageous. Walking your dog without carrying a lead “just in case”, hacking with your dog, not picking up dog poo 😂

2/3- I’m guilty!
		
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I’ve done all three at times. I should be banned!


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## palo1 (6 April 2021)

Clodagh said:



			I’ve done all three at times. I should be banned!
		
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Me too.   But it's ok because where I live I am certainly not alone. There are other people like us out there!   Technically we should be living in a state of terror at the loose dogs, wading knee deep in dog turds and causing horrible accidents due to hacking with dogs...or something like that.  But we are lucky enough here that it is not like that.  The farmers are friendly on the whole to the people living in the village with their pugs, poodlechoos  etc who want to use the footpaths.  Drivers and locals walking, running, driving and cycling are considerate to random horse riders with dogs.  The dogs seem sensible generally and get told off or restrained by their owners when they are not.  Dog turds probably discreetly biodegrade in the hedges - I dunno, I don't look for them and am not struck by how much dog poo is about generally. Children don't come home covered in any kind of animal faeces and old people are not regularly knocked over by naughty pets.  I feel very lucky in this situation tbh!!


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## Sandstone1 (7 April 2021)

I am just sad that people dont just pick up as a matter of course.  Its easy to do, quick, and just part of being a responsible dog owner in my opinion anyway.


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## CorvusCorax (7 April 2021)

There'll soon be a market for infrequently defecating dogs/those who's poops disappear after just a day 😂 definitely doesn't happen round here, it can take weeks and weeks, I'd say it's more likely being eaten than biodegrading.
I expect the people who let their dogs crap on the verge outside my house think it will biodegrade, rather than it getting stuck on my shoes or my dog's feet any time we leave the house.


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## Tiddlypom (7 April 2021)

CorvusCorax said:



			I expect the people who let their dogs crap on the verge outside my house think it will biodegrade,
		
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But the dog crap on your verge probably magically vanishes, doesn't it, so the perpetrators feel vindicated? 

Nothing to do with a cursing CorvusCorax picking the stuff up when she finds it outside her house 🤷‍♀️.

If I forget to poo pick the turds in the garden for a few days they don't vanish, they stick around.


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## Clodagh (7 April 2021)

I promise my dogs don't poo on anyones verges. Or paths, pavements, roads or footpaths. I am sure that I'm not the only person on AAD who doesn't scoop every poop but I can see why the others are keeping their heads down.


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## CorvusCorax (7 April 2021)

Tiddlypom said:



			But the dog crap on your verge probably magically vanishes, doesn't it, so the perpetrators feel vindicated?

Nothing to do with a cursing CorvusCorax picking the stuff up when she finds it outside her house 🤷‍♀️.

If I forget to poo pick the turds in the garden for a few days they don't vanish, they stick around.
		
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Did you hear me lol. I went through a phase of 'highlighting' them with powder spray a few months ago too 😂


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## Moobli (7 April 2021)

If walking at home I never used to take leads as I live right on the moors and can walk for hours in most directions without ever crossing a road.  The sheep are also my hubby’s (well he is farm manager on the Estate) so no worries about angering 
an unknown sheep farmer with my off lead dogs (they are always under control around livestock, and always on a lead around other people’s).  
Since lockdown I do carry leads at all times as you never know when and where you’ll bump into other people with dogs, cyclists, horse riders, joggers etc.  Away from home I always carry leads.
I guiltily admit to not always picking up after my dogs.  If we are out in the middle of nowhere and they go in the heather or undergrowth away from any paths or trails then I think it’s probably more environmentally friendly to leave it to naturally biodegrade.  I do religiously pick up around the yard, garden, tracks, paths, beach etc etc .
More annoying to me is when I come across bags full of dog sh*t hung in trees, thrown in bushes or just thrown on the floor 🤬
I’ve never hacked out with dogs but if the dog is really well trained and not in danger of annoying or scaring other people, pestering strange dogs, getting into traffic and causing accidents etc then I imagine it’s a great way to exercise them and very enjoyable for all concerned.


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## blackcob (7 April 2021)

Oh goodness yes, I'd rather people left it than bag it and hang it in a tree like a shitty bauble.


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## Michen (7 April 2021)

What a sensible post!



Moobli said:



			If walking at home I never used to take leads as I live right on the moors and can walk for hours in most directions without ever crossing a road.  The sheep are also my hubby’s (well he is farm manager on the Estate) so no worries about angering 
an unknown sheep farmer with my off lead dogs (they are always under control around livestock, and always on a lead around other people’s).  
Since lockdown I do carry leads at all times as you never know when and where you’ll bump into other people with dogs, cyclists, horse riders, joggers etc.  Away from home I always carry leads.
I guiltily admit to not always picking up after my dogs.  If we are out in the middle of nowhere and they go in the heather or undergrowth away from any paths or trails then I think it’s probably more environmentally friendly to leave it to naturally biodegrade.  I do religiously pick up around the yard, garden, tracks, paths, beach etc etc .
More annoying to me is when I come across bags full of dog sh*t hung in trees, thrown in bushes or just thrown on the floor 🤬
I’ve never hacked out with dogs but if the dog is really well trained and not in danger of annoying or scaring other people, pestering strange dogs, getting into traffic and causing accidents etc then I imagine it’s a great way to exercise them and very enjoyable for all concerned.
		
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palo1 said:



			Me too.   But it's ok because where I live I am certainly not alone. There are other people like us out there!   Technically we should be living in a state of terror at the loose dogs, wading knee deep in dog turds and causing horrible accidents due to hacking with dogs...or something like that.  But we are lucky enough here that it is not like that.  The farmers are friendly on the whole to the people living in the village with their pugs, poodlechoos  etc who want to use the footpaths.  Drivers and locals walking, running, driving and cycling are considerate to random horse riders with dogs.  The dogs seem sensible generally and get told off or restrained by their owners when they are not.  Dog turds probably discreetly biodegrade in the hedges - I dunno, I don't look for them and am not struck by how much dog poo is about generally. Children don't come home covered in any kind of animal faeces and old people are not regularly knocked over by naughty pets.  I feel very lucky in this situation tbh!!
		
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## TheresaW (7 April 2021)

Bo always positions himself right into a bush/undergrowth when he has a poo, so I do leave it. Luna, being always on lead, I tend to flick hers into the bushes.

I have poo bags in most of my pockets, and always clear up after them when road waking.


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## marmalade76 (7 April 2021)

Is this not something you should report to the police? Four large out of control dogs on a PROW behaving in a manner that is frightening other members of the public? Isn't there something in law about feeling threatened by dogs?


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## GSD Woman (7 April 2021)

As far as the poop goes, if my dogs go in the weeds and the woods it stays.  When I'm on a path in the woods I stick and flick.  I'm one of those that will bag up poo and leave it where I can pick up on my way back to the car.  When I walk in a park or on the streets (no sidewalks here)I bag it and carry it.


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