# Pelham vs Dutch Gag....



## Welshboy (17 July 2010)

I'm interested to know how the action differs and why one or other works better for different horses..... all part of my learning 

99% of the time my Welsh Sec D is  ridden in a french-link hanging cheek snaffle. For all local hacking, shows, schooling etc.

However, in a sponsored ride situation (group mentality on grass!!) he becomes very strong. For that I ride him in a hard-rubber mullen pelham, with roundings (sorry, but not advanced enough for two reins) and a leather curb. Once cantering it is still impossible to pull him up, or indeed slow him. 

My friend, who rides alongside (and is much more experienced than I) says he tooks his chin under and opens his mouth - thus, evading the bit. She used to hunt a big welsh X and couldn't hold him in a Pelham (as he did the same action), but she found a dutch gag much better.

I totally realise that different bits work for different horses/people, but am interested to find out more. He has been ridden in his Pelham for years.... by previous owners (only in faster situations, including hunting), but I just don't feel it has much control.

Any thoughts please...

(Oh, forgot to add, that we think a flash might also be useful, as currently always in a cavesson).


----------



## Shay (17 July 2010)

You need to look at how the bit acts to see what will best suit your horse.  When we bought my daughter's cob X we were told to hunt him in a pelham, but he is ridden in a snaffle for schooling.  Actually the pelham was worse than useless because he will open his mouth.  With the second rein it would probably have been fine but with one rein (my daughter can't handle 2 reins either)  you can't differentiate the actions.

So we swapped for a dutch gag.  Snaffle ring where at all possibe, but the ability to drop the reins to lower rings for hunting etc.  The gag action tightens the headpeice on the poll which, for us, is far more effective than the tounge / bar action of a pelham.  We do have a flash stap - but it is far better to find a bit the horse is comfortable with than to strap his mouth shut on one he isn't comfortable with.

If you can find a bit bank near you the bets thing to do is to borrow bits and see how they go.  Buying one bit after another can be an expensive proposition.


----------



## Mavis Cluttergusset (17 July 2010)

A pelham will encourage a horse to tuck it's chin in and sit behind it because of its action, and a gag has a 'raising' effect.  To be correct a gag should really be used with two reins also, one on the snaffle ring and one on the lower ring so you can be selective as to when you deploy it.  Having said that I used to hunt my ex racer (who was 17.2 and built like a brick outhouse, I am 8 stone ish and fall over in a strong breeze) in a dutch gag off the bottom rein (and a flash/grakle), purely because there was no need for finesse out hunting, he was either carting me or we were standing still.


----------



## Welshboy (17 July 2010)

Thanks both.  I have a friend with a dutch-gag of the right size that I can borrow, so that's obviously going to be my first one to try.  But obviously, I will try on local hacks first (on road hacks I hardy need a bit, lazy lad!), but we have a few places where we can have a short canter and I can get a feel for it.

He's not a particularly sensitive type, so I'd be suprised if he objected to any bits really, but as you say, it's best to give a few a try. I have been recommended a bit bank, where I can borrow a few for a small deposit before buying.

I seems that as he tucks his head down, that a dutch gag might be a better solution.  Maybe I could just try that with his usual cavesson to start with and see if he still opens his mouth with that....

Very ocassionaly, with excitement he is prone to the odd mini-bucks when we start cantering and this also puts me off the pelham a little too..


----------



## DollyDolls (17 July 2010)

You need to consider the mouth piece as well as the action of the bit.

Some horses lean really badly on a straight bar, but a single or double link are better.

I use a pelham with a lozenge mouthpiece (think french link, but a nugget middle rather than a flat middle).  I find this works really well.  I also have the same mouthpiece in a full cheek snaffle and an eggbutt too.

I like the curb pressure which a pelham gives, I think dutch gags are too severe on the poll (unless used with 2 reins)


----------



## ladyt25 (17 July 2010)

As someone said, consider the mouthpiece as well as the bit itself - I have my horse in a dutch gag (have tried others but always come back to this, it just works for him) I have however changed from a snaffle (nutcracker action) to (i think) waterford type mouthpiece. I think that's what it's called anyway. i

In my experience, if you horse tends to be heavy on his fore hand and has a lowi head carriage the gag works well brakes wise as you can lift the head up. A pelham/curb but however seems to encourage them to lean - My old pony came to me in a horrid pelham with the largest port I'd ever seen. After various bit  trials I went for the dutch gag -it'd had only just come out then! It worked brilliantly for him as he used to put his nose on the floor and bugger off, this bit stopped that. i did once try him in a kimblewick and jesus, he just p*ssed off when I galloped, it was not fun so back to the gag it was!

I do not use double reins on mine, i use it on the 2nd ring for jumping etc and the large snaffle type ring for general hacking. Yes i used to also use it on the bottom ring many year back as he used to be stronger! I know many people don't like it but I have never had a problem with this bit and my horse has never seemed to suffer with it. Essentially he's been in this bit from the age of about 6 and he is now 19. i do ride in a hanging snaffle for dressage and have tried other bits but he seems to like (if that's the right word, I'm sure he'd actually prefer no bit at all!) the gag.


----------



## Welshboy (17 July 2010)

Thanks LadyT

Yes, he does get on the forehand a bit and can put his head down.  99% of the time he's in a hanging-cheek french link snaffle, as he never b****** off with you on a local hack, in the school, or jumpiing at shows with my daughter - he's a good boy.

However, I'm a mature/novice rider having returned to riding after almost 30 years.  I've owned him for 14 months (first-ever horse) and love him to bits.  However, on fast rides he takes hold and basically it frightens me a little, as I totally rely on others stopping first.  He alway wants to go as fast as poss and get in front!

He's 14 so no youngster and he does know his stuff.  I personally, don't feel that the Pelham has any affect - he either leans on it, or tucks his chin under .....  and, apparently opens his mouth at times...

I am not experienced enough for two reins and I would only use the gag for the ocassional faster ride (once a month), so I'm not too worried about finess or perfection, I just want to feel like I have a bit of control and that he listens to me ....

Thanks for sharing your experience...


----------



## Gentle_Warrior (17 July 2010)

why not try a tom thumb bit, i have a very heavy on the forehand cob cross who will go in a loose ring lovely, but then suddenly not.  He has a habit of sticking his head between his legs and bucking til xmas.  He also gets very excited in company and is a lot of horse to control.  I use a tom thumb with double reins most of the time but spons ride I have no hesitattion with just using the one rein on the lower ring, it helps keep him off his forhand whilst having breaks!

It is also a lot neater than the three ring gag and especially if you rarely or never ise the thrird ring.  I have the lozenge mouth piece

http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?imgu...a=X&ei=8AdCTJnBFcvT4wa4zsmuDg&ved=0CDoQ9QEwBQ


----------



## Welshboy (17 July 2010)

GW, yes that looks interesting too.  It's one I shall ask about when I visit the local bit shop...  sort of looks like a similar action to the dutch gag.  

Thank you.


----------



## ladyt25 (17 July 2010)

Just a note, I tried a tom thumb on mine to see if this would help me a little. It was ok but it actually made my horse's mouth sore so i went back to the gag. My current horse never runs off, never has BUT he is heavy on the forehand and, when it comes to jumping I feel the gag helps to get his head up and he can get his quarters underneath him.

He is well schooled and as said ride him in a lesser bit for hacking and dressage tc bit, in situations where I need a bit more control the dutch gag just seems to be what suits hm.

I would say though consider your horse's mouth - does he have large, wide mouth, a large or small tongue etc etc - these are things you need to consider when thinking of what mouthpiece will suit. You may need to get someone more knowledgeable in to advise as to what mouth type would suit more as this is very very important when it comes to choosing the right bit.


----------



## wilsha (18 July 2010)

i have a similar problem i use the same pelham for my nutty conemarra for fun rides and ue a snaffle for at home and showing but do use a gag for jumping and pony club i would say a flash may help as it stops the pony getting his bit between his teeth and taking off also i use a curb chain this may be better than a leather one although i have no experience with one


----------



## somethingorother (18 July 2010)

I don't think a dutch gag has the same action as would be expected from a normal 'gag' bit. Due to the poll pressure imo it is mor elikely to lower the head than raise it. You could try using it with a curb (leather may be best to start) which would limit the amount of poll pressure, but i would either use it with double reins, or if you have to use roundings, only on the first and second ring as it's a strong action. I find it a useful bit as you can then use it on just the snaffle ring for schooling and activities where he doesn't tank off, it will act just like a hanging cheek snaffle. I would say mouthpiece wise, you might be better off with a french link, in case he is objecting to a single joint jabbing him or pinching him, and he will find it harder to lean than with a straight bar. Probably less likely to back off it too. 

It sounds like he is avoiding the contact, so the bit you are using must be uncomfortable for him. Also, those bits are quite thick and i know my share horse really hates them and evades with them, even though they are supposed to be a mild mouthpiece, it can be a lot to have in their mouth.


----------

