# The 'Grand' National?



## whiteroom (11 April 2015)

Having enjoyed this for years I feel saddened today, the winner looked so tired it was saddening, Channel 4's coverage of his recovery was just too much for me. 

Wish we could hear of Balthazar King's condition too.

Will I watch again, probably yes but not on Channel 4


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## teapot (11 April 2015)

Apparently it's quite normal for Many Clouds and Balthazar King is back at the stables but still under assessment.


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## 3Beasties (11 April 2015)

While I was very concerned for him when he finished the race I was grateful for the footage showing him looking much brighter following his cooling down. I would much rather see for myself that he had picked up rather than having to trust them when they say 'he's fine'. I also thought it was good to hear from his stable lass (?) that he usually reacts in that way after a race. He is obviously a horse that gives his absolute all.

More worrying about Balthazar King, he was out on the track for an awfully long time being assessed. I hope he is OK.

I'm not really sure how channel 4 could have done it differently?! 

Does anyone know if all the jockeys made it back in one piece?


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## Zero00000 (11 April 2015)

Balthazar King is being taken to the vets after being diagnosed with broken ribs


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## Zero00000 (11 April 2015)

Sorry 'Suspected broken ribs'


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## Havannah (11 April 2015)

Balthazar King is going to Leahurst Equine Hospital so he will be in very good hands. He walked into the horse box according to Horse & Country and has suspected broken ribs.


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## suffolkmare (11 April 2015)

Thank you for that update, I thought Channel 4 did well, informing us as well as they could, showing Many Clouds with his lass and explaining that he has overheated on previous outings. Thankfully we have excellent vets and knowledgeable stable staff to tend to horses quickly and appropriately. Hopefully BK will make a speedy recovery. I think the race is now as "safe" as it can be, but still a huge challenge to horse and jockey.


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## horsies4coursies (11 April 2015)

Just one jockey still to hear about, took a hard fall off a grey (sorry can't remember name of either).


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## Elf On A Shelf (11 April 2015)

horsies4coursies said:



			Just one jockey still to hear about, took a hard fall off a grey (sorry can't remember name of either).
		
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Portrait King and Davy Condon? He has concussion but thankfully nothing else.


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## Love (11 April 2015)

Very pleased to hear all home safe and sound. Thoughts are with BK hoping he makes a speedy recovery.


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## justabob (11 April 2015)

whiteroom said:



			Having enjoyed this for years I feel saddened today, the winner looked so tired it was saddening, Channel 4's coverage of his recovery was just too much for me. 

Wish we could hear of Balthazar King's condition too.

Will I watch again, probably yes but not on Channel 4
		
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How odd that you thought Channel 4's coverage was too much for you. I thought that it was informative and a relief to see the horse recover so quickly. I did think that Alice should have realised sooner that the horse was in distress and stopped the interview with the jockey before she did.


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## Exploding Chestnuts (11 April 2015)

I have never seen a horse tying up like Many Clouds, and was convinced he was going to collapse, but they did not appear to administer oxygen, and he was fine after ten minutes, certainly very scary, his trainer was obviously stressed out by the pictures and nearly knocked the mike out of the hands off the interviewer, but he maintained his professionalism, after all there was nothing he could do. He said Trevor Hemmings had made the decision to run, I really think he has no more GNs in him.


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## Noodles_3 (11 April 2015)

Another that is pleased there was so much coverage! I like to see for myself that they are ok. Having said that it did make me feel uncomfortable. Hope BK recovers soon. Also RIP to Seedling in the earlier race


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## Goldenstar (11 April 2015)

whiteroom said:



			Having enjoyed this for years I feel saddened today, the winner looked so tired it was saddening, Channel 4's coverage of his recovery was just too much for me. 

Wish we could hear of Balthazar King's condition too.

Will I watch again, probably yes but not on Channel 4
		
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That's the reality of racing horses some horses run till they overheat .
It's good the public see it the reality of what can happen not the sanitised sentimental stuff you often see that the reality of racing for many horses is gallop until your so over heated you risk your life .
I think it's good to see them aggressively cooling the horse that's what goes on why hide it. 
Horses are pushed to edge racing we should not hide it .
I am glad BK has made it to Leahurst I hope it's a recoverable injury he's in a good hands poor boy .


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## Bede (11 April 2015)

Bonkers2 said:



			I have never seen a horse tying up like Many Clouds, and was convinced he was going to collapse, but they did not appear to administer oxygen, and he was fine after ten minutes, certainly very scary, his trainer was obviously stressed out by the pictures and nearly knocked the mike out of the hands off the interviewer, but he maintained his professionalism, after all there was nothing he could do. He said Trevor Hemmings had made the decision to run, I really think he has no more GNs in him.
		
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I thought it was unnecessary and insensitive to keep Oliver Sherwood talking when he was obviously desperate to get away to see to his horse.
These immediately after the event interviews are never informative anyway; it's always predicable stuff about how thrilled they are, the horse ran great etc. I wish they'd drop them


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## Exploding Chestnuts (11 April 2015)

Bede said:



			I thought it was unnecessary and insensitive to keep Oliver Sherwood talking when he was obviously desperate to get away to see to his horse.
These immediately after the event interviews are never informative anyway; it's always predicable stuff about how thrilled they are, the horse ran great etc. I wish they'd drop them
		
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Yes, it was obvious that the jockey would have got off if he had not been mugged by Alice Plunket, that particular horse was obviously an extreme case, but they had plenty of water in the tent, which is a good idea, things do improve a bit every year, not sure if it was a hot day, and if that made a lot of difference to the others, I was under the impression that it is the neck and frontage that needs to be cooled as that is where all the relevant nerve endings are, the big muscles on the rump were getting all the water, I noticed that yesterday too. Also the water warms up very quickly, thus no longer reduces the temperature,  so if there is no hose, it has to be scraped off.
PR is part of racing nowadays, I think it is about twenty years since Nigel [Twiston Davis] said "I don't do interviews"


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## MurphysMinder (11 April 2015)

As I understand it, the aim is to cool the larger muscle masses first.  In the later footage the vet was using a scraper whilst a hose was being used to spray the horse . I don't think the care could be faulted but do think Alice should have spotted sooner the horse was distressed .


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## Kadastorm (11 April 2015)

Really proud of racing today, channel 4 did not hide anything and showed just how much everyone cares for their horses. Glad to hear they are all home and BK is being treated, it wasn't the fall but the collision which was horrendous. My friends horse finished 6th and are thrilled and so am I, even if I lost money hahaha


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## paulineh (11 April 2015)

With regarding cooling a horse down, the best way is just keep pouring water on them. The big blood vessels are in the neck and between the back legs. These are the ones that need cooling.

If you watch an Endurance horse being cooled you will see that the crews just keep pouring water over them.


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## paulineh (11 April 2015)

With regarding cooling a horse down, the best way is just keep pouring water on them. The big blood vessels are in the neck and between the back legs. These are the ones that need cooling.

If you watch an Endurance horse being cooled you will see that the crews just keep pouring water over them.


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## Exploding Chestnuts (11 April 2015)

We often see horses at the end of a race "tying up" and being passed on the run in,  but in fact is it possibly overheating, not azoturia?
The NH horses are running for 6 to 8 minutes compared to 2-3 mins for a flat horse.


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## Pebble101 (11 April 2015)

I was upset at how the horse finished but pleased to see how quickly he seemed to recover and the care he got.  I think they should stop the interview with the jockey because IMO he should have got off that horse before he did rather than answering inane questions.  Was that Alice Plunket interviewing him (sorry don't normally watch racing)?  If it was she should have known better.


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## MiJodsR2BlinkinTite (11 April 2015)

Pebble101 said:



			I was upset at how the horse finished but pleased to see how quickly he seemed to recover and the care he got.  I think they should stop the interview with the jockey because IMO he should have got off that horse before he did rather than answering inane questions.  Was that Alice Plunket interviewing him (sorry don't normally watch racing)?  If it was she should have known better.
		
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Agree that the girl interviewing was totally anal............. WHY why why FFS wasn't Clare Balding doing the honours? She was covering the Boat Race; and one couldn't help but highly suspect that she'd far rather have been somewhere else....


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## HashRouge (11 April 2015)

I really hate the way they try to interview the jockey/ trainer etc literally the second the race is over. They are never good interviews anyway - the jockey is always distracted and exhausted and the trainer and other connections are always being interrupted by people they know congratulating them. I wish the TV crews would just leave them be for a bit, let them enjoy the moment, get themselves together, then do the interview when they are ready. Maybe the jockey would have got off the horse sooner if he hadn't been distracted by the pointless interview. That said, I did really like the fact that channel 4 were really concerned with showing us how the horses were and I really liked the fact that we got to see Many Clouds once he was back to himself, and that they kept updating us on Balthazar King. I'm sure a few years back they never used to do that.

I swear I heard someone telling Aspell that he might need to get off the horse, just as Alice Plunkett started her interview. Unfortunately, I'm not sure he heard, given the distraction!


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## ridefast (11 April 2015)

Didn't look like the horse tied up, looked like over heating. It was a hot day, all the horses looked tired when they finished. I was pleased we were kept updated on the horses


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## ycbm (11 April 2015)

MiJodsR2BlinkinTite said:



			Agree that the girl interviewing was totally anal............. WHY why why FFS wasn't Clare Balding doing the honours? She was covering the Boat Race; and one couldn't help but highly suspect that she'd far rather have been somewhere else....
		
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I read that she had the choice, and chose the boat race because the women's race had equal status for the first time in history.


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## MyBoyChe (11 April 2015)

I thought the C4 coverage was good today, some interesting pre race articles and good coverage of the racing.  I was pleased they showed the aftermath of the race, I thought it was explained well and good to show people what does go on.  Given Alices' background I was a bit surprised she didnt notice what was happening, at one point I thought the horse was going to go over on top of her!  Still, all in all, they seem to have got a better mix of people, I do miss Clare because like her or not, she does actually understand the game and is informative and knowledgeable.  I understood she had decided not to do any more racing coverage though as she is so busy doing other things, shame.


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## MiJodsR2BlinkinTite (11 April 2015)

MyBoyChe said:



			, I do miss Clare because like her or not, she does actually understand the game and is informative and knowledgeable.  I understood she had decided not to do any more racing coverage though as she is so busy doing other things, shame.
		
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Ooohhhhhh............ noohhh, I didn't know this, am devastated


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## fburton (11 April 2015)

I thought C4's coverage was pretty good. So many camera angles, and the overhead shots were splendid. Would have been even better with Clare Balding.


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## Mariposa (11 April 2015)

I thought the coverage was excellant, and I for one really like Alice Plunkett, you can't blame her for interviewing the winning jockey, that's her job. 

Leighton Aspell was quite capable of stopping the interview and jumping off the horse - and Oliver Sherwood's head lass was there so she could have got him to hop off sooner, so let's not blame Alice! The horse seemed to get progressively worse and I have to admit I thought he was about to have a heart attack, and it was a relief to see him recovered.

I miss Clare Balding but I thought the Morning Line team did a really good job, I'm liking them more and more every week ( could do without Jim McGrath sometimes as he seems a bit grumpy....), and I loved the Morning Line coverage earlier in the day.


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## Princess16 (11 April 2015)

Absolutely hate this race - poor horses being pushed to the limit downright cruel


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## Amymay (11 April 2015)

Princess16 said:



			Absolutely hate this race - poor horses being pushed to the limit downright cruel
		
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Yes, that's why the loose horses continue to jump....


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## Michen (11 April 2015)

amymay said:



			Yes, that's why the loose horses continue to jump....
		
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I'm a massive racing fan but I don't really think the horses continue to jump because they love it, more because they are part of the "herd"


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## armchair_rider (11 April 2015)

I think Channel 4 do a pretty good job - and they don't shy away from reporting on horse deaths/injuries. I do agree that they could do away with the immediate interviews, they don't add much and the interviewer is in everyone's way.

I hope Balthazar King recovers quickly along with anyone else horse or human who was hurt. I think Aintree have done a pretty good job welfare wise, they had loads of people ready to help and the cooling area worked well. I wouldn't like to comment on Many Clouds state, he did look quite bad at the time but if that's how he normally is at the end of races...

I was very pleased to see Many Clouds win, he's a lovely horse and the trainer certainly deserves it. The owner always comes across as a nice bloke too. Also very impressed with Ruby Walsh helping with waving the runners round the Canal Turn on the second circuit, definitely a generous act on his part.


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## Goldenstar (11 April 2015)

Just thinking about Balthazar King I hope he's doing ok broken ribs are very nasty if your a human it must be very painful for a horse ,at least horses don't laugh.


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## Tiddlypom (11 April 2015)

Hopefully lessons will have been learned (that old chestnut) about dealing with a distressed horse after a big televised race. The cooling down facilities looked ace, as long as the horse survived long enough to reach them.

Personally I would much rather that winning and placed horses bypass the walk to the winners enclosure altogether, and are instead taken straight off to be cooled down. The sight of various shrieking non horsey idiots jumping up and down in close proximity to a hot knackered horse are not edifying. 

Let the humans do the celebrating instead.

Apart from the Many Clouds blip, I liked the C4 coverage.


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## Crazy_cat_lady (11 April 2015)

Not watched all the coverage as was at the yard but watched the re run.
i didn't feel all the coverage of MC afterwards was upsetting or over the top i was pleased they showed it as they were updating us on his welfare rather than just saying he was fine.  
Hope BK recovers looked like it was the being hit that caused it as that was some force.
also nice to see the coverage of the previous winners in their parade. 
Gok and his multiple fashion slots is pretty annoying though if you're going to show him would rather just have a five or ten minute slot.
would have been nice to see more of the GN horses going to post too.


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## Moomin1 (11 April 2015)

I'm really quite shocked to read so many comments on this thread condoning a horse overheating simply because 'that's what it does often'.  That doesn't make it acceptable.  If that horse has an issue with overheating then IMO it should not be racing in the National for starters..


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## ycbm (11 April 2015)

amymay said:



			Yes, that's why the loose horses continue to jump....
		
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To be fair Amymay, they wouldn't complete 4.5 miles though, would they? Loose horses may jump a few but they normally give up quite quickly.

Agree with you Moomin. If an eventer had a horse that did that at the end of every cross country, the horse would be retired to a less stressful job, surely?


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## teapot (11 April 2015)

MiJodsR2BlinkinTite said:



			Agree that the girl interviewing was totally anal............. WHY why why FFS wasn't Clare Balding doing the honours? She was covering the Boat Race; and one couldn't help but highly suspect that she'd far rather have been somewhere else....
		
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Clare Balding CHOSE to cover the Boat Race over the National meeting. She's fairly freelance these days so picks and chooses what she wants to do. Given her interest in women in sport, the fact that the Boat race made history today is partly why she probably chose that over Aintree.


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## Elf On A Shelf (11 April 2015)

Moomin1 said:



			I'm really quite shocked to read so many comments on this thread condoning a horse overheating simply because 'that's what it does often'.  That doesn't make it acceptable.  If that horse has an issue with overheating then IMO it should not be racing in the National for starters..
		
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I agree with this to an extent. I have dealt with wobbly horses and it is not fun in any way shape or form! Personally I would weigh up the weather, ground conditions (they really do make a huge difference!), the wash down and facilities for after race care before I would let my horse out on the track if I knew it was capable of over heating. With what they had at the end of the National I would have no qualms about running my horse but I would make damned sure I was down there doing everything possible to help the horse. I am one who wouldn't run a horse on a baking hot day in a long distance race (3m+)


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## Princess16 (11 April 2015)

amymay said:



			Yes, that's why the loose horses continue to jump....
		
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What a stupid comment ! What else is the horse going to do? He is just following the rest not because he enjoys jumping !


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## Moomin1 (11 April 2015)

EKW said:



			I agree with this to an extent. I have dealt with wobbly horses and it is not fun in any way shape or form! Personally I would weigh up the weather, ground conditions (they really do make a huge difference!), the wash down and facilities for after race care before I would let my horse out on the track if I knew it was capable of over heating. With what they had at the end of the National I would have no qualms about running my horse but I would make damned sure I was down there doing everything possible to help the horse. I am one who wouldn't run a horse on a baking hot day in a long distance race (3m+)
		
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The way I view it is, if Joe Bloggs from the local livery yard brought their horse back from a hack/xc/fun ride in that state, would that be acceptable? Or would everyone be up in arms about it?  I think the latter would be more likely.


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## teapot (11 April 2015)

Moomin1 said:



			The way I view it is, if Joe Bloggs from the local livery yard brought their horse back from a hack/xc/fun ride in that state, would that be acceptable? Or would everyone be up in arms about it?  I think the latter would be more likely.
		
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Playing devil's advocate, Joe Bloggs wouldn't have access to the veterinary care and set up that was at Aintree today... 

I get your point though and it's an interesting one to discuss. Throw in the weather, coat change, weight (4lbs heavier than any of his 2014 runs)... 

Agree about the interview getting in the way though. Media's a funny one. For all we know, Alice had an editor yacking in her ear to keep it going whilst she may have wanted to get out the way.


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## Moomin1 (11 April 2015)

teapot said:



			Playing devil's advocate, Joe Bloggs wouldn't have access to the veterinary care and set up that was at Aintree today... 

I get your point though and it's an interesting one to discuss. Throw in the weather, coat change, weight (4lbs heavier than any of his 2014 runs)... 

Agree about the interview getting in the way though. Media's a funny one though. For all we know, Alice had an editor yacking in her ear to keep it going whilst she may have wanted to get out the way.
		
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IMO it matters not what set up you've got - it's not acceptable to allow a horse to become overheated to that extent.  It's a little like saying it's ok to starve your dog so long as you step in and feed it up again once it becomes emaciated.


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## bonny (11 April 2015)

Whatever happened today there would be people on here complaining about it.....how about the fact that all the horses are ok with one exception who was injured in a freak accident and probably will be ok. There were very few fallers and a lot of horses finishing. It will be the end of the race if it is tampered with anymore, as it is it's becoming a lot of hype over a staying handicap chase, without the sense of history today would have just been another saturday jump meeting.


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## Mrs B (11 April 2015)

Princess16 said:



			What a stupid comment ! What else is the horse going to do? He is just following the rest not because he enjoys jumping !
		
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Er ... Nope. There are plenty of run-out lanes for the horse to take if he/she wishes to. They jump because they're bred to do so. 

Have you ever tried to make a horse do something he/she doesn't want to do? If you read the threads on this forum, you'll realise it happens rather a lot 

Maybe, before you call someone's view 'stupid' in future, you'll have the humility to honestly look at your own knowledge and understanding of the situation before you judge someone else's.


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## Tiddlypom (11 April 2015)

The Many Clouds team seemed to be quite casual in their throw-away remarks after the race, as he was staggering about, that it was 'normal' for him to do this.

I question why the racecourse vets who must have dealt with him on previous occasions, did not either suggest retiring him or having special and immediate post race cooling treatment for him lined up if he ever ran again.

This was oh so nearly a very public fatality whilst the pundits yakked on, seemingly oblivious to a very distressed horse.


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## Moomin1 (11 April 2015)

bonny said:



			Whatever happened today there would be people on here complaining about it.....how about the fact that all the horses are ok with one exception who was injured in a freak accident and probably will be ok. There were very few fallers and a lot of horses finishing. It will be the end of the race if it is tampered with anymore, as it is it's becoming a lot of hype over a staying handicap chase, without the sense of history today would have just been another saturday jump meeting.
		
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Who actually cares if it means that animal welfare is improved?

Then again, I suppose there are those out there who don't care about animal welfare, so long as 'history' is preserved for the sake of human enjoyment.


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## bonny (11 April 2015)

Moomin1 said:



			Who actually cares if it means that animal welfare is improved?

Then again, I suppose there are those out there who don't care about animal welfare, so long as 'history' is preserved for the sake of human enjoyment.
		
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I was asking what is the point of just looking for things to complain about....all the horses are ok, is that not what matters ?


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## Moomin1 (11 April 2015)

bonny said:



			I was asking what is the point of just looking for things to complain about....all the horses are ok, is that not what matters ?
		
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No.  It is fantastic that all of the horses lived, however not all horses were ok by any means.  I accept that accidents will happen in any discipline, however I don't accept that a horse who purportedly 'normally overheats' at the end of races, is still racing, particularly in the National of all races.  Even worse the fact that they know this already, yet they didn't appear to take immediate measures to try and prevent it happening as soon as the race was over.


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## Princess16 (11 April 2015)

Mrs B said:



			Er ... Nope. There are plenty of run-out lanes for the horse to take if he/she wishes to. They jump because they're bred to do so. 

Have you ever tried to make a horse do something he/she doesn't want to do? If you read the threads on this forum, you'll realise it happens rather a lot 

Maybe, before you call someone's view 'stupid' in future, you'll have the humility to honestly look at your own knowledge and understanding of the situation before you judge someone else's.
		
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We are all entitled to an opinion and I don't care what you say I think this particular race is cruel.


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## bonny (11 April 2015)

Moomin1 said:



			No.  It is fantastic that all of the horses lived, however not all horses were ok by any means.  I accept that accidents will happen in any discipline, however I don't accept that a horse who purportedly 'normally overheats' at the end of races, is still racing, particularly in the National of all races.  Even worse the fact that they know this already, yet they didn't appear to take immediate measures to try and prevent it happening as soon as the race was over.
		
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A few of the horses, including the winner overheated at the end.....within minutes they were all fine, it's a one off race that comes at the end of the season after which the horses will go out to grass for the summer. I thought todays winner was brilliant, he carried a lot of weight, jumped perfectly and has had a great season. Why not celebrate his achievement instead of just looking for things to moan about ?


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## teapot (11 April 2015)

Princess16 said:



			We are all entitled to an opinion and I don't care what you say I think this particular race is cruel.
		
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Do you think Badminton is cruel too? Or high goal polo?

Moomin, I really understand your viewpoint and a horse to get to that level of overheating race after race, well something's been missed somewhere. Sadly that comes down to welfare at the higher levels, but I've seen horses finish Badminton far worse than Many Clouds, so if it changes in one sport, it has to change in another imho.


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## Elf On A Shelf (11 April 2015)

Moomin1 said:



			No.  It is fantastic that all of the horses lived, however not all horses were ok by any means.  I accept that accidents will happen in any discipline, however I don't accept that a horse who purportedly 'normally overheats' at the end of races, is still racing, particularly in the National of all races.  Even worse the fact that they know this already, yet they didn't appear to take immediate measures to try and prevent it happening as soon as the race was over.
		
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They got water on the horse as soon as they possibly could. Yes the jockey should have got off quicker but the pull up/collecting point has more water than the River Thames just waiting to be launched over horses and that's before they get back to the official wash down areas. 

We have 2 horses that are known to over heat in the yard - ironically both bought out of Oli Sherwood's yard last year! We know what they do, we send 2 people out to bring the horse back in, buckets in hand, the boss is told to get buckets if needs be too. The Owners are the ones who have the final say whether to run the horse or not - as shown today by Sherwood not wanting to run Many Clouds but Hemmings insisting that he did. The owners are the ones who are weighing up the pro's and con's as to whether they run the horse or retire it.


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## Moomin1 (11 April 2015)

bonny said:



			A few of the horses, including the winner overheated at the end.....within minutes they were all fine, it's a one off race that comes at the end of the season after which the horses will go out to grass for the summer. I thought todays winner was brilliant, he carried a lot of weight, jumped perfectly and has had a great season. Why not celebrate his achievement instead of just looking for things to moan about ?
		
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I don't care that he jumped perfectly and has had a great season.  That's irrelevant to his welfare.  The bare bone facts are that this horse was pushed to the limits and it was a sorry sight to see him staggering about overheating at the end.  The fact that other horses overheated does not negate the concerns that should be raised, it in fact strengthens the argument.  If a horse was ridden to the point where it overheated and was staggering all over the place at a local show, then it would be taken very seriously and probably end up with a visit from a welfare officer.


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## bonny (11 April 2015)

Moomin1 said:



			I don't care that he jumped perfectly and has had a great season.  That's irrelevant to his welfare.  The bare bone facts are that this horse was pushed to the limits and it was a sorry sight to see him staggering about overheating at the end.  The fact that other horses overheated does not negate the concerns that should be raised, it in fact strengthens the argument.  If a horse was ridden to the point where it overheated and was staggering all over the place at a local show, then it would be taken very seriously and probably end up with a visit from a welfare officer.
		
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Maybe we should just retire every horse and keep them in neat paddocks with post and rail fences and just pat them everyday.....


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## Moomin1 (11 April 2015)

bonny said:



			Maybe we should just retire every horse and keep them in neat paddocks with post and rail fences and just pat them everyday.....
		
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Or maybe we should just make sure we don't flog them to the point of overheating and then say it's acceptable because 'that's what that horse does'?


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## sasquatch (12 April 2015)

Moomin1 said:



			Or maybe we should just make sure we don't flog them to the point of overheating and then say it's acceptable because 'that's what that horse does'?
		
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Moomin, I agree with most of what you're saying, however can't help but wonder if the 'that's what he does' comment was made to try and reassure people - it was a hot day, it's a tiring race and I haven't seen the runners come in looking so tired in a long time.
it was distressing to see, and if it is a regular thing then something does need to be looked into as why the horse is overheating to that extent - puffing, panting and sweating is one thing but when your horse looks about to collapse and is being pushed and pulled along by stable lads and lasses it does raise questions.

It just shows Many Clouds is a very honest, genuine horse who pushes himself to his absolute limits - and I hope he gets a good long rest after a well deserved win. 

Very glad to hear all horse and riders got back safe, Balthazar King's fall made me gasp and I was fearing the worst when they bypassed the fence. I thought it was also nice that they mentioned that Ruby Walsh had stayed with the horse (even though he wasn't his horse) and was helping on the ground.

I did miss Clare Balding on the coverage, however overall I was impressed with it. Loved the race playback in slow mo however I wished they'd been more accurate when pointing out/circling horses!

I also love the jockey cam - couldn't stop laughing when I saw the footage from another race where Aidan Coleman (I think it was?) fell and landed in the middle of the fence.


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## marmalade76 (12 April 2015)

HashRouge said:



			I really hate the way they try to interview the jockey/ trainer etc literally the second the race is over. They are never good interviews anyway - the jockey is always distracted and exhausted and the trainer and other connections are always being interrupted by people they know congratulating them. I wish the TV crews would just leave them be for a bit, let them enjoy the moment, get themselves together, then do the interview when they are ready. Maybe the jockey would have got off the horse sooner if he hadn't been distracted by the pointless interview. That said, I did really like the fact that channel 4 were really concerned with showing us how the horses were and I really liked the fact that we got to see Many Clouds once he was back to himself, and that they kept updating us on Balthazar King. I'm sure a few years back they never used to do that.

I swear I heard someone telling Aspell that he might need to get off the horse, just as Alice Plunkett started her interview. Unfortunately, I'm not sure he heard, given the distraction!
		
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I don't like the immediate interviews either, it must spoil the moment a bit for the jocks and probably irritates some horses who just want to get on back to the paddock. Surprised there's not more swearing and I'm sure someone's going to get kicked or flattened eventually.

I like how they keep us informed and showed how Many Clouds was ok. Missed Clair but she's not immune to making a balls up, remember poor Liam and his teeth?


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## madmav (12 April 2015)

I wish I had the skills to cut and paste Aidan coleman being ditched into the fence. It is amazing. And he has horse after horse flying over his head. Him sayin 'can I get up yet.'  Then immediately runs to catch loose horses. Those guys care more for the horses than for themselves.
As for the crit of Many Clouds running. I did have my heart in my mouth. But they did all the right things by him. And he's fine. And he won! And here's hoping Balthazar King, is going to be ok, too.
As for Clare balding not being there. Was always a big fan of hers. But didn't miss her at all. Thought the c4 team did a great job. And Clare is in danger of being rather over exposed, I fear.


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## Spreebok (12 April 2015)

bonny said:



			I was asking what is the point of just looking for things to complain about....all the horses are ok, is that not what matters ?
		
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Not poor Seedling, fell and broke his neck, died


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## sasquatch (12 April 2015)

madmav said:



			I wish I had the skills to cut and paste Aidan coleman being ditched into the fence. It is amazing. And he has horse after horse flying over his head. Him sayin 'can I get up yet.'  Then immediately runs to catch loose horses. Those guys care more for the horses than for themselves.
		
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it was the 'can I get up yet?' 'NO' and the 'I'll grab a horse, hey, that's my horse!' that cracked me up, great bit of footage and it was nice to see the horse get a big pat and a bit of reassurance as well.

I actually really like the jockeycam/hatcam footage, I find it interesting to see it from the riders point of view - although I wonder what sort of camera they use


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## Elf On A Shelf (12 April 2015)

sasquatch said:



			it was the 'can I get up yet?' 'NO' and the 'I'll grab a horse, hey, that's my horse!' that cracked me up, great bit of footage and it was nice to see the horse get a big pat and a bit of reassurance as well.

I actually really like the jockeycam/hatcam footage, I find it interesting to see it from the riders point of view - although I wonder what sort of camera they use
		
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Usually the hatcam is the kiss of death and many jockeys refused to wear one for a few years after 2 or 3 Nationals where it never made it past a circuit! I'm surenit was Sam Thomas that had it on the other year, on a bright sunny day, when his horse refused and all you could see was his shadow starfishing it down to the ground on the other side of the fence from the horse!


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## siennamum (12 April 2015)

I get increasingly uncomfortable watching racing. I vowed never to put money on Leighton Aspall after watching him thrash horses home in the past. I think if the horses jump for love and work within their physical capabilities then get rid of the whips they aren't needed. Many Clouds would not have run himself to near death that way.

I am no bunny hugger, I enjoyed much of the GN yesterday, there was some outstanding jumping, but people are delusional if they don't believe the industry has some major welfare issues.


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## Pebble101 (12 April 2015)

ycbm said:



			If an eventer had a horse that did that at the end of every cross country, the horse would be retired to a less stressful job, surely?
		
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I used to event my horse (Grassroots level).  He suffered in the heat and once overheated in his stable.  I would withdraw if the forecast was for hot weather, but he was great in rain 

I enjoy watching a good horse go round the National and making it look easy, however yesterday made me question what we ask our horses to do at times when I saw the fall at the Canal Turn and then the winner almost collapsing.  

I can't see any point in banning the National in isolation because horses die in races all year round.  And a friend of mine lost three horses in field accidents, two broken legs and one broken neck, but I wouldn't dream of keeping my horses constantly stabled.


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## Elf On A Shelf (12 April 2015)

Whips are needed though - not necessarily in a finish if you deem all races should be driven out hands and heels - but from a safety aspect. A smack down the shoulder can straighten out a drifting horse and can keep up the momentum into a fence. Would you go round a show jumping or xc course without one? I hugely doubt it! 

And as of yet no jockey got a ban/telling off for over use of the whip in this years National. 9 smacks in 4 1/2 miles really isn't that many! And I think it's only 2 or 3, maybe 4 you are allowed to give them after the last. Most of what you see is the showing of the whip, it very rarely actually connects with the horse.


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## Orangehorse (12 April 2015)

bonny said:



			Whatever happened today there would be people on here complaining about it.....how about the fact that all the horses are ok with one exception who was injured in a freak accident and probably will be ok. There were very few fallers and a lot of horses finishing. It will be the end of the race if it is tampered with anymore, as it is it's becoming a lot of hype over a staying handicap chase, without the sense of history today would have just been another saturday jump meeting.
		
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Hear, hear.  I watched with my heart in my mouth, hoping that all the runners would be OK, but really enjoyed it in the end.  I was slightly worried that the winner was going to collapse in full view of the cameras, when he was wobbling around, which would have wiped the smile off the presenters' faces.

Poor Oliver Sherwood was desperate to get to his horse, but dealt with it well in the end, and it was a good move to have the horse back in the paddock when he had recovered.  

Remember that the combination of owner, trainer and jockey all want to win and in the National if the horse is fit and well to run and the ground is suitable, then they are going to take their chance, because the chance might never come again.


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## Moomin1 (12 April 2015)

Orangehorse said:



			Hear, hear.  I watched with my heart in my mouth, hoping that all the runners would be OK, but really enjoyed it in the end.  I was slightly worried that the winner was going to collapse in full view of the cameras, when he was wobbling around, which would have wiped the smile off the presenters' faces.
		
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Personally I was worried the horse was going to collapse full stop, not just whether it was going to collapse infront of the cameras.

As you rightly said, the owners, trainers and jockeys do want to win.  It seems that sadly welfare comes second to that.


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## Clodagh (12 April 2015)

MC didn't look exhausted on the run in, he pricked his ears jumping the last and I didn't see excessive use of the whip. I know it was pre rule change but when Ballabriggs was beaten to near collapsing I found that very upsetting, MC didn't look distressed while running, he looked like he was staying on well.
I do think the jockeys - not just the winner - should hop off straight after the race on the course and unsaddle immediately. If everyone did it it would become the norm.
So glad BK made it up.
So sad about Seedling.


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## suffolkmare (12 April 2015)

Interesting point relating to whether the horses want to keep jumping after parting with their jockey or just "run with the herd"... On Friday Sire Du Grugy (sp?) fell, got up and continued, but left the "herd", ending up on the National course and jumping the Chair and water jump, earning huge applause from the crowd...I'm sure he would have gone past them and/or turned back if he hadn't wanted to run and jump! Mostly it does look like they follow/stay with the others for a short while before realising they can choose to head back to the stables by themselves.


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## Exploding Chestnuts (12 April 2015)

Clodagh said:



			MC didn't look exhausted on the run in, he pricked his ears jumping the last and I didn't see excessive use of the whip. I know it was pre rule change but when Ballabriggs was beaten to near collapsing I found that very upsetting, MC didn't look distressed while running, he looked like he was staying on well.
I do think the jockeys - not just the winner - should hop off straight after the race on the course and unsaddle immediately. If everyone did it it would become the norm.
So glad BK made it up.
So sad about Seedling.
		
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That's a good idea Clodagh, but not all racecourses could have washdown facilites at the winning post and often the winning post is close to the paddock. Not many races have so many horses, nor are they so long, which must be part of the problem. It's worth writing to BHA suggesting it.


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## whiteroom (12 April 2015)

Thank you Tiddlypom - that is how I felt.


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## Princess16 (12 April 2015)

Moomin1 said:



			Personally I was worried the horse was going to collapse full stop, not just whether it was going to collapse infront of the cameras.

As you rightly said, the owners, trainers and jockeys do want to win.  It seems that sadly welfare comes second to that.
		
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Totally agree with you but alas things will never change. Hope he is OK today.


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## Tiddlypom (12 April 2015)

madmav said:



			As for the crit of Many Clouds running. I did have my heart in my mouth. But they did all the right things by him. And he's fine. And he won! And here's hoping Balthazar King, is going to be ok, too.
		
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I disagree. They did the right thing eventually, but not immediately. Those few minutes of delay nearly cost MC his life. Yes, some water was being thrown over him, but not enough and there was too much delay in getting fresh buckets. The jockey still being aboard meant that his middle wasn't reached.

As a known over heater, he should have been unsaddled as soon as he pulled up, 4 people with buckets of iced water should have immediately doused him (one on each quarter of the horse) and then he should have been taken to the official cooling off area.

Anyhow, hopefully the issue of the post race care of overheating horses will now be addressed more carefully. Improvements have been made (water being available at the finish) but it needs refining.

All best vibes for BK.


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## SpringArising (12 April 2015)

I'm pretty staggered by the few posters who said that the loose horses jump because 'that's what they're bred to do'. 

They're running with the herd. They are fight or FLIGHT animals. Of course they're following everyone else - if they don't do that in the wild they end up in the chops of a predator! 

They are high to their eyeballs on adrenaline and anxiety. Do you think they are just going to stop and have a munch on the grass while the rest of the pack gallops away?


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## Mariposa (12 April 2015)

Well Many Clouds looks pretty happy with himself this morning! 

https://twitter.com/LisaKozak/status/587140695762284544/photo/1


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## pip6 (12 April 2015)

It has improved, only a few years ago traditional people would never have put cold water on a hot horse. Much has been learned from endurance, but they can do more. A few buckets is not enough, it should be ice water, with the horse scraped off in between buckets or you just end up with a wet horse with warm water on it which wont help cool. There are even rugs with a chemical coolant which can be used instead of water with the same cooling effect. If a horse has a known tendancy to overheat on exertion, every measure should be in place for when they cross the finish.


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## Moomin1 (12 April 2015)

pip6 said:



			It has improved, only a few years ago traditional people would never have put cold water on a hot horse. Much has been learned from endurance, but they can do more. A few buckets is not enough, it should be ice water, with the horse scraped off in between buckets or you just end up with a wet horse with warm water on it which wont help cool. There are even rugs with a chemical coolant which can be used instead of water with the same cooling effect. If a horse has a known tendancy to overheat on exertion, every measure should be in place for when they cross the finish.
		
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IMO if a horse is known to overheat, they shouldn't be running a race such as the National in the first place.  It's a disaster waiting to happen.


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## Honeylight (12 April 2015)

I have already commented on a FB page about this.
A friend phoned me at the end of the race saying that the scenes had persuaded her to campaign against the race. She has no first hand knowledge of horses, unlike the posters on this site or on the Facebook page.
The scenes will have done much to reinforce some of the arguments of Peta and Animal Aid. Yes we know the horses are not whipped to exhaustion and know about whips having used them ourselves, casual once a year watchers maybe do not. Don't forget many, many people will watch to see how the horse they drew in a workplace sweepstake did and they will have seen the overheated winner staggering about. It was an ugly scene.
I really do think the "mike on a pole" should go, I am certain this held Leighton Aspell up in dismounting, prevented the horse being properly cooled and could have led to a tragedy, that would have been viewed by millions. I was screaming at the TV!
I also thought that Oliver Sherwood was very controlled when they prevented him going to the horse, I think I would have told them where to go!
I thought that the Channel 4 coverage was mainly poor. I don't think many people are that interested in fashion and it's hardly Royal Ascot. The coverage of the runners before the race was minimal and the parade only part shown; I never saw Many Clouds before the race. There were too many interviews and a real sense of the commentators getting in the way of pre race preparations.


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## justabob (12 April 2015)

I also agree that the mike on the pole has had it's day, the most important job of the team is to get the horse cooled off after a grueling race at this time of year. When we were Point2pointing we put methallated spirit (sp) in the water bucket to throw over the horse in warm weather, not for it o drink obviously!


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## AdorableAlice (12 April 2015)

Perhaps we could spare a thought for Robbie McNamara.

It is very evident the vast majority of comments have come from people who have little or no understanding of the production and care of a racehorse or other equine disciplines that take the horse near to the limit.

The immediate interviews need to stop.  The racecourses and the vets provide a professional service to the care of the horses, regardless of the level of racing.  The vets present on course are specialists in their field.

The welfare soapbox would be far better used for the thousands of horses living in despair across the world now.


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## Mariposa (12 April 2015)

^^  very well said.


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## fburton (12 April 2015)

SpringArising said:



			I'm pretty staggered by the few posters who said that the loose horses jump because 'that's what they're bred to do'. 

They're running with the herd. They are fight or FLIGHT animals. Of course they're following everyone else - if they don't do that in the wild they end up in the chops of a predator! 

They are high to their eyeballs on adrenaline and anxiety. Do you think they are just going to stop and have a munch on the grass while the rest of the pack gallops away?
		
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Conversely, if they truly loved to jump why would you need jockeys at all? You'd just point the horses at some jumps and leave them to get on with it. Even with training, I can't see this happening, can you? They might jump a couple of fences, but a whole course?


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## Moomin1 (12 April 2015)

AdorableAlice said:



			Perhaps we could spare a thought for Robbie McNamara.

It is very evident the vast majority of comments have come from people who have little or no understanding of the production and care of a racehorse or other equine disciplines that take the horse near to the limit.

The immediate interviews need to stop.  The racecourses and the vets provide a professional service to the care of the horses, regardless of the level of racing.  The vets present on course are specialists in their field.

The welfare soapbox would be far better used for the thousands of horses living in despair across the world now.
		
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It's irrelevant what vets are there.  It's irrelevant how they are produced or cared for behind the scenes. They still should not be run in the National if they are known to over heat.  To me, it's a little like feeding a chronic laminitic high starch food, and saying it's ok because they have the best vet in the country standing by waiting to treat it.


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## 3Beasties (12 April 2015)

fburton said:



			Conversely, if they truly loved to jump why would you need jockeys at all? You'd just point the horses at some jumps and leave them to get on with it. Even with training, I can't see this happening, can you? They might jump a couple of fences, but a whole course?
		
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Same with any horse sport though! I wouldn't expect my horse to do a dressage test or course of jumps without a rider, doesn't mean she doesn't enjoy it though!


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## fburton (12 April 2015)

3Beasties said:



			Same with any horse sport though! I wouldn't expect my horse to do a dressage test or course of jumps without a rider, doesn't mean she doesn't enjoy it though!
		
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Yes, but the enjoyment isn't the primary motivation to run, is it?


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## AdorableAlice (12 April 2015)

Moomin1 said:



			It's irrelevant what vets are there.  It's irrelevant how they are produced or cared for behind the scenes. They still should not be run in the National if they are known to over heat.  To me, it's a little like feeding a chronic laminitic high starch food, and saying it's ok because they have the best vet in the country standing by waiting to treat it.
		
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Do you have any experience within elite horse sport.


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## Goldenstar (12 April 2015)

To use horses is to risk the use of them injuring or harming them .
No one has the moral high ground , for every racehorse horse killed in a high profile situation there literally hundreds of horses under going the slow descent to chronic lameness and ill health caused by bad shoeing being shod too long with out a break ,having the sets of shoes on for too long between shoeings to reduce cost .
Horses losing their respiratory health because of bad bedding and poor mucking out .
Horses being kept too fat ( and less commonly too thin ) horses kept stabled and turned out in small paddocks with little or no exercise I could go on and on and on .
I did not like the spectacle yesterday the exhausted horse the overexcited humans the interview , I don't like the hot horses in the winners enclosure the noise and excitement must be the last thing they want after they have given their all .


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## Elf On A Shelf (12 April 2015)

SpringArising said:



			They are high to their eyeballs on adrenaline and anxiety. Do you think they are just going to stop and have a munch on the grass while the rest of the pack gallops away?
		
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Yup! I had one horse who did exactly that at Newcastle! Fell at the first, got up and grabbed some grass (jockey was completely useless, not for injury but for other reasons bless him!) so Caesar trotted off, stopped to grab some grass, had a wee canter, stopped for grass realised the big screen was next to him so stood munching his mouthful.of grass watching the race unfold! Ok he is probably pretty unique but if you look up Caesars Palace and look at his career wins he really was one unique little horse! And an awesome hunter!


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## Dobiegirl (12 April 2015)

This wringing of the hands of the anti racing brigade really annoys me, meanwhile sat in a shed are hundreds of licensed breeding bitches who never get to go for a walk and are bred back to back but that is ok because they are licensed and the general public dont get to see that side of it.

The racehorses are treated like royalty and Im sure after this GN everything will be done to make sure it doesnt happen again, it was a very hot day at Aintree which contributed to Many Clouds stagger. I remember a few years back a horse called Combs Ditch trained by David Elsworth  I believe who often had oxygen after his races. It is very rare and because of that I dont think its worthy of all these adverse comments.


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## minesadouble (12 April 2015)

AdorableAlice said:



			Perhaps we could spare a thought for Robbie McNamara.

It is very evident the vast majority of comments have come from people who have little or no understanding of the production and care of a racehorse or other equine disciplines that take the horse near to the limit.

The immediate interviews need to stop.  The racecourses and the vets provide a professional service to the care of the horses, regardless of the level of racing.  The vets present on course are specialists in their field.

The welfare soapbox would be far better used for the thousands of horses living in despair across the world now.
		
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Well said. Apparently Robbie McNamara's op went without complication but the full extent of the damage is not yet known.
On another sad note Balder Success has been lost to the shoulder injury sustained in the Melling Chase, my thoughts go out to his connections. Sad loss of a super horse.


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## ozpoz (12 April 2015)

fburton said:



			Conversely, if they truly loved to jump why would you need jockeys at all? You'd just point the horses at some jumps and leave them to get on with it. Even with training, I can't see this happening, can you? They might jump a couple of fences, but a whole course?
		
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But our equine sports are about the partnership between horse and human, surely it is a team thing?


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## ycbm (12 April 2015)

Where is this idea coming from that it was a very hot day?  The Liverpool weather records show a high of 52 Fahrenheit.


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## SpringArising (12 April 2015)

Dobiegirl said:



			This wringing of the hands of the anti racing brigade really annoys me, meanwhile sat in a shed are hundreds of licensed breeding bitches who never get to go for a walk and are bred back to back but that is ok because they are licensed and the general public dont get to see that side of it.

The racehorses are treated like royalty
		
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I'm not hard-core anti-racing, but I do disagree with the GN and how hard it is on the horses. Yeah, it's hard for the jockeys too, but they have a choice, don't they?

Just because there's cruelty going on elsewhere it doesn't mean that this is less important. You'll always be able to find something more cruel and more barbaric that what you can currently see; does that mean that we should turn a blind eye to the 'less important' forms of abuse?

And, racehorses are not treated like royalty. Not from a horse's POV, anyway. It's all well and good having flash stables and an immaculate yard, but do you think they give a rat's butt about that?


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## Elf On A Shelf (12 April 2015)

The Grand National isn't any different to Badminton or Burgley (or however it is spelt!) In a way. At both horses go over massive big fences for a long distance. 

That's where the similarites end. Racing - licenced trainers & jockeys. Eventing - and Tom, Richard or Harry can do it. Racing - the Ground at Aintree will have been superbly well looked after. Eventing - time after time you see the take offs are just mud patches from years of take offs and landings. Racing - 1.5 hours from start to finish (1/2hour paddock walk, 5 mins walk/trot/canter to start, 8-9min race, 1/2-3/4 hour walking cool down then back in the box. Eventing - god knows how long to warm up, jump practive fences, exhaust your horse so you can actually stay in some form of control, do your round, cool.down - 3 days in a row! Racing -horses are seen on tv to have given their all and be ******ed. Eventing - not televised, the general.public don't have a clue whats going on, no one knows about it.

Etc ...

To those who do not like the Grand National therefore, in theory will despise 3 Day Eventing even more!


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## SpringArising (12 April 2015)

EKW said:



			To those who do not like the Grand National therefore, in theory will despise 3 Day Eventing even more!
		
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I really do. I think something needs to change, in both the GN and for eventing.


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## justabob (12 April 2015)

SpringArising said:



			I really do. I think something needs to change, in both the GN and for eventing.
		
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 The GN has changed almost beyond all recognition in the last 20 years, perhaps the next step is to remove all the fences and shorten it to a mile. Eventing has also changed, no roads and tracks, no steeplechase phase. This is all getting too silly.


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## SpringArising (12 April 2015)

justabob said:



			The GN has changed almost beyond all recognition in the last 20 years
		
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So what? 




			perhaps the next step is to remove all the fences and shorten it to a mile. This is all getting too silly.
		
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Or, we could shorten the race/reduce the amount of jumps/lower the height of the fences/further limit the number of horses who are allowed to run?

I'll never be one of these people who cares more about a daft tradition than the welfare of animals. To be honest I couldn't care less if we removed all the jumps or shortened the race to a mile. Is one race really that important to you?


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## 3Beasties (12 April 2015)

It wasn't a hot day yesterday. My sister was there and she was freezing all day due to the cold wind.


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## fburton (12 April 2015)

ozpoz said:



			But our equine sports are about the partnership between horse and human, surely it is a team thing?
		
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One couldn't perform to full potential without the other, that is true. It that sense it is a partnership / team effort. Nevertheless, in racing and other equestrian sports, the rider is taking advantage of the horse's natural instincts to run with the herd and to the training based on that, not the enjoyment of the running which may be less for some horses than for others.


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## Elf On A Shelf (12 April 2015)

3Beasties said:



			It wasn't a hot day yesterday. My sister was there and she was freezing all day due to the cold wind.
		
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I guess people see the over heating part and the fact that the sun was out and assumed it was hot. Ballabrig's year was hot! It's kinda the same as a car over heating in the middle of winter - you don't expect it but it does happen!


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## Moomin1 (12 April 2015)

AdorableAlice said:



			Do you have any experience within elite horse sport.
		
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I don't need experience in any level of horse sport to know that exercising a horse to the point of over heating and staggering about is not right.  And that goes for whatever discipline they may be competing in, not just racing.  

I will never quite understand this argument that a few seem to use on this forum, that unless you have experience in an area you cannot make a judgement with regard the welfare of the animals involved.


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## dingle12 (12 April 2015)

I've not watched the GN so really cannot comment on how they were treated, however each groom and team will know there own horse and how to deal with it. They will know how to cool the horse down as fast as possible. ( ice water and scraped off keep repeating, walking and offer water)

Yes it's not nice for an outside to see an horse overheated but they do recovery and they are as fit as possible.


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## Tiddlypom (12 April 2015)

dingle12 said:



			I've not watched the GN so really cannot comment on how they were treated, however each groom and team will know there own horse and how to deal with it.
		
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Um, if you haven't watched it, then you may wish to revise your opinion that the horse was dealt with optimally.


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## siennamum (12 April 2015)

As one of the know nothing hand wringers who has no right to comment (never having ridden in the GN) I enjoy watching eventing, and have no doubt that if a horse were hit repeatedly from the last fence to the finish line and then collapsed, there would be an absolute outcry.


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## LittleRooketRider (12 April 2015)

siennamum said:



			As one of the know nothing hand wringers who has no right to comment (never having ridden in the GN) I enjoy watching eventing, and have no doubt that if a horse were hit repeatedly from the last fence to the finish line and then collapsed, there would be an absolute outcry.
		
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He didn't collapse and he was instantly taken care of by vets and a tema of grooms to cool him down before he was taken to the winners enclosure 30 minutes or so later..and this morning it was reported he was looking and feeling good.


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## Elf On A Shelf (12 April 2015)

siennamum said:



			As one of the know nothing hand wringers who has no right to comment (never having ridden in the GN) I enjoy watching eventing, and have no doubt that if a horse were hit repeatedly from the last fence to the finish line and then collapsed, there would be an absolute outcry.
		
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He also wasn't hit repeatedly. Jockeys can only use the stick 2 or 3 times from the last to home - which is a long way at Aintree!


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## LittleRooketRider (12 April 2015)

EKW said:



			He also wasn't hit repeatedly. Jockeys can only use the stick 2 or 3 times from the last to home - which is a long way at Aintree!
		
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Yes....Leighton really rather kept him together and "nursed" him to the finish line.


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## Goldenstar (12 April 2015)

justabob said:



			The GN has changed almost beyond all recognition in the last 20 years, perhaps the next step is to remove all the fences and shorten it to a mile. Eventing has also changed, no roads and tracks, no steeplechase phase. This is all getting too silly.
		
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No I don't think it's silly its working to improve things for the horses the GN is less punishing than it was and stopping the possibility of things like the horses rolling into the ditch on the back of beechers is a good thing , on eventing changes to the format and improving veterinary knowledge is leading to horses lasting longer and that's a good thing .


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## DipseyDeb (12 April 2015)

Dobiegirl said:



			This wringing of the hands of the anti racing brigade really annoys me, meanwhile sat in a shed are hundreds of licensed breeding bitches who never get to go for a walk and are bred back to back but that is ok because they are licensed and the general public dont get to see that side of it.
.
		
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Interesting how you assume that us 'hand ringers' (as you put it) are not against other forms of cruelty!!  Can you tell me, how offering examples of other forms of animal welfare issues, would make our point any less valid!  Have you seen the clip, doing the rounds on Faceache at the moment, of the mother (using the the very loosely here) who pours hot sauce down her son's throat, and then sticks him under a cold shower as a punishment?  Am I to assume, using your rational, that you believe everyone should turn a blind eye because there are worse forms of child abuse in the world?


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## ycbm (12 April 2015)

EKW said:



			The Grand National isn't any different to Badminton or Burgley (or however it is spelt!) In a way. At both horses go over massive big fences for a long distance. 

That's where the similarites end. Racing - licenced trainers & jockeys. Eventing - and Tom, Richard or Harry can do it. Racing - the Ground at Aintree will have been superbly well looked after. Eventing - time after time you see the take offs are just mud patches from years of take offs and landings. Racing - 1.5 hours from start to finish (1/2hour paddock walk, 5 mins walk/trot/canter to start, 8-9min race, 1/2-3/4 hour walking cool down then back in the box. Eventing - god knows how long to warm up, jump practive fences, exhaust your horse so you can actually stay in some form of control, do your round, cool.down - 3 days in a row! Racing -horses are seen on tv to have given their all and be ******ed. Eventing - not televised, the general.public don't have a clue whats going on, no one knows about it.

Etc ...

To those who do not like the Grand National therefore, in theory will despise 3 Day Eventing even more!
		
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I'm not really interest in the welfare argument going on about the race, but I do feel compelled to correct the inaccuracies in this post, EKW, sorry.

Tom, Dick or Harriet can only ride of both they and the horse have worked their way up through the grades gaining enough clears to qualify to compete at a higher level.

Four star event take offs are never patches of mud. They are not bare of grass because of over use, they are bare of grass because they are an artificially drained especially created surface for the job.

In eventing, the horse is on its own. It is not racing other horses and the chances of it not noticing that it is over stretching itself are likely to be lower.

In eventing, the rider knows the horse intimately and has been responsible for the day to day training of the horse. They know exactly what feels normal for that horse and what does not, reducing the chance of death and injury.

In eventing, the reputation of the rider would be shot to pieces if a horse died of exhaustion, not so a jockey.

In eventing, the horse is not galloping flat out into fences, each jump is more controlled, less likely to cause a fall, and less likely to kill the horse if a fall occurs. The slower speed also allows the horse to duck out if it knows it is wrong rather than crash on regardless.

In racing, first past the post wins. In eventing, after the most strenuous part, the cross country, the horse has to show jump the next day in order to win, and therefore can't be pushed to its limits on the cross country.

Top level eventing *is* televised, which is how I know that in eventing, the rider is off the horse, and the first iced water is on the horse within seconds of crossing the finish line.

These factors probably influence why the staying chases  kill and injure so many more horses than top flight eventing with a cross country of a similar distance and number of obstacles.

I'm not sure the two can reasonably be compared, sorry.


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## minesadouble (12 April 2015)

SpringArising said:



			So what? 



Or, we could shorten the race/reduce the amount of jumps/lower the height of the fences/further limit the number of horses who are allowed to run?

I'll never be one of these people who cares more about a daft tradition than the welfare of animals. To be honest I couldn't care less if we removed all the jumps or shortened the race to a mile. Is one race really that important to you?
		
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Why don't we stop riding our horses on the roads for fear they get killed? Only canter them on all weather arenas for fear they put a foot down a rabbit hole? Stop turning them out in company as there's a fair chance they'll get kicked? Hell, let's keep them stabled 24/7 for their own safety!! I mean really 'remove all the jumps and shorten the race to a mile'???!! Have I stumbled onto the PETA forum in error????


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## Elf On A Shelf (12 April 2015)

Ah see! You can't keep them stabled either as I have known a few to crack their skulls on their door frames and break bones from getting cast!


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## tess1 (12 April 2015)

15 horses were killed on UK racecourses throughout March.

4 have been killed or destroyed as a result of their injuries in the last seven days.

It is unknown weather BK will recover from his broken ribs.

How many other injuries in lesser races do we not hear of?   How many horses are quietly destroyed when it becomes clear they will not become sound again, or their recovery not economically viable, and never make the statistics?  

I don't know of any other 'sport' in the UK with that level of fatalities.

Unjustifiable.


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## HashRouge (12 April 2015)

sasquatch said:



			it was the 'can I get up yet?' 'NO' and the 'I'll grab a horse, hey, that's my horse!' that cracked me up, great bit of footage and it was nice to see the horse get a big pat and a bit of reassurance as well.

I actually really like the jockeycam/hatcam footage, I find it interesting to see it from the riders point of view - although I wonder what sort of camera they use
		
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Wish I'd seen that, sounds hilarious!!


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## SpringArising (12 April 2015)

minesadouble said:



			Why don't we stop riding our horses on the roads for fear they get killed? Only canter them on all weather arenas for fear they put a foot down a rabbit hole? Stop turning them out in company as there's a fair chance they'll get kicked? Hell, let's keep them stabled 24/7 for their own safety!! I mean really 'remove all the jumps and shorten the race to a mile'???!! Have I stumbled onto the PETA forum in error????
		
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Wow. Do you really think that a plod around the village is more dangerous than galloping at break-neck speed across four miles, over thirty jumps? Also, fear is different from fact. It's a FACT that horses will be hurt or killed in every Grand National. It's not a fact that horses will be hurt or killed during every hack. 

Btw, please read properly next time. I said I couldn't care less if they removed all the jumps or shortened the race to a mile. I didn't say that's what they should do.


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## 3Beasties (12 April 2015)

HashRouge said:



			Wish I'd seen that, sounds hilarious!!
		
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The video can be seen here -

http://www.breakingnews.ie/sport/ot...-cam-footage-of-a-fall-at-aintree-671392.html

I think it's a really nice example of a jockey caring for more than just winning a race. Lovely to hear him speaking to his horse like that.


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## Madam Min (12 April 2015)

I've tried not to comment on this thread but hey ho! I am a NH fan and do go to the National meeting. Its not nice when horses are injured or sadly die and I dont think anybody connected/involved in racing wish for this to happen. Most of these horses are much loved and well cared for. Yes there will be a small minority who won't be so scrupulous but unfortunately I guess that's the same in all aspects of the equine world. I guess there will always be room for improvement re the horses welfare and I  agree that more does need to be done for those horses that dont make the grade and after retirement. However to be completely sure that we don't abuse horses then perhaps we shouldn't ride or  keep them at all!!!


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## Smurf's Gran (12 April 2015)

3Beasties said:



			The video can be seen here -

http://www.breakingnews.ie/sport/ot...-cam-footage-of-a-fall-at-aintree-671392.html

I think it's a really nice example of a jockey caring for more than just winning a race. Lovely to hear him speaking to his horse like that.
		
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Thanks for posting, it was great !!


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## minesadouble (12 April 2015)

SpringArising said:



			Wow. Do you really think that a plod around the village is more dangerous than galloping at break-neck speed across four miles, over thirty jumps? Also, fear is different from fact. It's a FACT that horses will be hurt or killed in every Grand National. It's not a fact that horses will be hurt or killed during every hack. 
How many horses are lost each year through accidents in the field, on the road or just through sheer lack of knowledgable care? Far more than are lost in racing - that is a FACT.


Btw, please read properly next time. I said I couldn't care less if they removed all the jumps or shortened the race to a mile. I didn't say that's what they should do.
		
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How many horses are lost each year due to field accidents, ridden accidents, road accidents or just lack of knowledgable care? Far more than are lost in the whole of racing let alone the Grand National, that is a FACT.


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## minesadouble (12 April 2015)

Madam Min said:



			I've tried not to comment on this thread but hey ho! I am a NH fan and do go to the National meeting. Its not nice when horses are injured or sadly die and I dont think anybody connected/involved in racing wish for this to happen. Most of these horses are much loved and well cared for. Yes there will be a small minority who won't be so scrupulous but unfortunately I guess that's the same in all aspects of the equine world. I guess there will always be room for improvement re the horses welfare and I  agree that more does need to be done for those horses that dont make the grade and after retirement. However to be completely sure that we don't abuse horses then perhaps we shouldn't ride or  keep them at all!!!
		
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Well said. I too sat on my hands for a good while on this thread - I wish I hadn't even read it now as it only serves to raise my blood pressure 
It especially annoys me that people assume racehorses are owned and trained by heartless individuals who view them as nothing more than racing machines.
We took our newest ex racehorse to his first show last weekend. I emailed his former owner, trainer and breeder afterwards to let them know how well he had got on. I got three long replies stating how thrilled they were to hear of his progress, how much they thought of him and how grateful they were to be updated and please stay in touch! They all clearly cared very much for him.
We have numerous liveries on our yard who habitually overfeed their already morbidly obese horses. To me that is a greater cruelty than any in the Grand National.


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## SpringArising (12 April 2015)

minesadouble said:



			How many horses are lost each year due to field accidents, ridden accidents, road accidents or just lack of knowledgable care? Far more than are lost in the whole of racing let alone the Grand National, that is a FACT.
		
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You have just grouped together the entirety of the horse world over various activities and disciplines, across the space of a year. Of course there's going to be more injuries or deaths.

Horses being turned out in a field is absolutely necessary for their sanity. Being pushed to gallop until breaking-point is not. 

This isn't about people wanting to campaign against all racing and ban it forever - it's about reducing the risk in whatever way we can to ensure that less horses die or are seriously injured from the race. Is that prospect really so offensive to you?


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## Goldenstar (12 April 2015)

minesadouble said:



			How many horses are lost each year due to field accidents, ridden accidents, road accidents or just lack of knowledgable care? Far more than are lost in the whole of racing let alone the Grand National, that is a FACT.
		
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Just because there are more of them .
Far more horses will die at the races than doing any other sporting activity .
And that's before we deal with the eye popping wastage rate .
The percentage of horses in training is small as a percentage of horses in the country.


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## ycbm (12 April 2015)

minesadouble said:



			How many horses are lost each year due to field accidents, ridden accidents, road accidents or just lack of knowledgable care? Far more than are lost in the whole of racing let alone the Grand National, that is a FACT.
		
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All horses are subject to those risks. The risks of NH racing are on top of those risks, not instead of them.


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## tess1 (12 April 2015)

minesadouble said:



			How many horses are lost each year due to field accidents, ridden accidents, road accidents or just lack of knowledgable care? Far more than are lost in the whole of racing let alone the Grand National, that is a FACT.
		
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But racing is a *sport*.  More people are killed, or suffer life changing injuries on the roads every day driving to work than in all the organised car races that happen each year - not just Formula One - ALL car races.  But if there was a death in the car racing world approximately every other day (which is a statistic comparable with horse racing - approximately one horse dies every two days on UK racecourses), then the sporting bodies, indeed most of the country, would be up in arms.


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## minesadouble (12 April 2015)

Racing is a high risk sport, to some those risks are acceptable and to some they are not.
If I had the choice between coming back as a National Hunt racehorse or a cob owned by a numpty novice DIY livery owner with the best will in the world I'd rather be the racehorse Notwithstanding any  associated risks!!


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## tess1 (12 April 2015)

minesadouble said:



			Racing is a high risk sport, to some those risks are acceptable and to some they are not.
		
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Of course. I cannot imagine why anyone would not support a sport in which an athlete loses their life every other day.  Add in the extra "frisson" of occasionally not knowing whether the winner will make it to prize giving ceremony or collapse and die from over-exertion, and it beggers belief why anyone would consider such an activity questionable, let alone objectionable.

Support racing if that is your choice (more choice than the horses get) but don't delude yourself, or attempt to delude anyone else that racing is an industry that prioritises horse welfare over financial gain, ego and adrenaline rush.


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## Moomin1 (12 April 2015)

minesadouble said:



			Racing is a high risk sport, to some those risks are acceptable and to some they are not.
If I had the choice between coming back as a National Hunt racehorse or a cob owned by a numpty novice DIY livery owner with the best will in the world I'd rather be the racehorse Notwithstanding any  associated risks!!
		
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Personally, I would rather come back as neither.  I would rather come back as a horse owned by a competent, caring, responsible owner who didn't flog me to the point where I over heat.

Two wrongs don't make a right. Just because there are other scenarios which compromise welfare, it does not negate another entirely different one.


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## LittleRooketRider (12 April 2015)

tess1 said:



			How many horses are quietly destroyed when it becomes clear they will not become sound again, or their recovery not economically viable, and never make the statistics?
		
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Is humanely, or as you put it "quietly" putting down the ones who are either injured n a way that prevents them from being competitive/fatally injured, or not making the grade kinder than filling the world with useless, unwanted horses. Yes it would be nicer if the future of retired and/or failed racehorses could be improved/guaranteed, but TBH I think pts is kinder than paliming them off on clueless do-gooders who truly believe they are rescuing them.

Yes I know a lot of people successfully rehome/retrain racehorses, but I have witnessed far to many completely inappropriate pairings of people who buy/ or are given an ex-racehorse  because its cheap, but do not consider the requirements.


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## LittleRooketRider (12 April 2015)

Moomin1 said:



			who didn't flog me to the point where I over heat.

.
		
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Erm...at no point was Many Clouds (or any of the horses) "flogged", for starters the rules limit jockeys to 3 times from the last to the finish line (quite a distance)and Leighton rode him very nicely to the finish, just keeping him together .


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## justabob (12 April 2015)

To all those that think racing is an unacceptable risk to horses, why not take yourselves to a market and see the real world of cruelty and man handling of livestock. The people, the vendors and the buyers of the poor unfortunate horses that end up there. I would rather be a racehorse any day. Yes I know some end up in dire situations, but so do most others. Minesadouble, we are never going to get through to these people on this forum.


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## tess1 (12 April 2015)

LittleRooketRider said:



			Is humanely, or as you put it "quietly" putting down the ones who are either injured n a way that prevents them from being competitive/fatally injured, or not making the grade kinder than filling the world with useless, unwanted horses. Yes it would be nicer if the future of retired and/or failed racehorses could be improved/guaranteed, but TBH I think pts is kinder than paliming them off on clueless do-gooders who truly believe they are rescuing them.

Yes I know a lot of people successfully rehome/retrain racehorses, but I have witnessed far to many completely inappropriate pairings of people who buy/ or are given an ex-racehorse  because its cheap, but do not consider the requirements.
		
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I mean 'quietly' as in the slip under the radar and are not shown as racecourse fatalities in the statistics.  

Kinder yet to not breed so many horses to the point where the 'wastage' rate is horrendous, and to not view horses as a commodity to be disposed of when they are of no further financial use.  How different would the picture of racing look if every owner had to take responsibility for their elderly or unsound animals who were still capable of leading a life of quality - just not one of commercial value.


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## tess1 (12 April 2015)

justabob said:



			To all those that think racing is an unacceptable risk to horses, why not take yourselves to a market and see the real world of cruelty and man handling of livestock. The people, the vendors and the buyers of the poor unfortunate horses that end up there. I would rather be a racehorse any day. Yes I know some end up in dire situations, but so do most others. Minesadouble, we are never going to get through to these people on this forum.
		
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I don't need to be 'got through to'.  I merely hold a different point of view.  

I have addressed this point in my previous post with regards to racing being a 'sport' - which puts it in a different category to the daily ignorance and cruelty experienced by many unfortunate equines.  Hypothesising on the kind of horse you might like to be in a future life does little to address the situation of those beings that are unlucky enough to be race horses in this life.


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## Moomin1 (12 April 2015)

LittleRooketRider said:



			Erm...at no point was Many Clouds (or any of the horses) "flogged", for starters the rules limit jockeys to 3 times from the last to the finish line (quite a distance)and Leighton rode him very nicely to the finish, just keeping him together .
		
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Yet he still overheated.  There's something wrong with that IMO. If this horse is known to overheat then it shouldn't be raced.

ETA, what is this obsession on this forum for people to try and excuse one issue of poor welfare, by raising other examples?  Just because there are animals elsewhere in the equine industry being abused, doesn't mean that in this instance it is ok.  Of course there are horses and livestock in markets that are welfare concerns, as there are on DIY yards, private yards, dealers yards, dressage yards.. and so on.


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## justabob (12 April 2015)

tess1 said:



			I mean 'quietly' as in the slip under the radar and are not shown as racecourse fatalities in the statistics.  

Kinder yet to not breed so many horses to the point where the 'wastage' rate is horrendous, and to not view horses as a commodity to be disposed of when they are of no further financial use.  How different would the picture of racing look if every owner had to take responsibility for their elderly or unsound animals who were still capable of leading a life of quality - just not one of commercial value.
		
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There is over breeding in every breed, look at the fly grazing of coloured cobs for a start. The racing industry IS taking responsibility for ex racer, the ROR classes, the rehabilitation centres. Like me, hundreds of people are taking on ex racers. If they are unsound or unable to be rehabilitated then they should and mostly are put down.


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## bonny (12 April 2015)

There is a lot of serious overreaction going on this thread and meantime the real world carries on ! All the horses who ran are fine, the winner has paraded and looks amazing. He got tired, he was entitled to be tired, he recovered within minutes and will be treated like the hero he is for the rest of his life. The people looking for things to complain about in racing are looking the wrong way imo.


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## SpringArising (12 April 2015)

justabob said:



			To all those that think racing is an unacceptable risk to horses, why not take yourselves to a market and see the real world of cruelty. Minesadouble, we are never going to get through to these people on this forum.
		
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I would be very concerned if I saw a horse being mistreated at a market, rest assured. However, the difference is that a very, very limited amount of horses die (or need to be shot) at the market itself as a result of what is being asked of them. The same can't be said for the Grand National. 

What are your reasons for being in favour of it, besides from an entertainment POV?



bonny said:



			All the horses who ran are fine
		
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No they're not. BK is suspected (vet's words) to have broken his ribs. That is not being fine, to me.


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## tess1 (12 April 2015)

LittleRooketRider said:



			Erm...at no point was Many Clouds (or any of the horses) "flogged", for starters the rules limit jockeys to 3 times from the last to the finish line (quite a distance)and Leighton rode him very nicely to the finish, just keeping him together .
		
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Yes, perhaps he had learned his lesson from a previous ride on the same horse ... http://www.racingpost.com/news/hors...y-ride/1782801/#newsArchiveTabs=last7DaysNews


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## Moomin1 (12 April 2015)

justabob said:



			There is over breeding in every breed, look at the fly grazing of coloured cobs for a start. The racing industry IS taking responsibility for ex racer, the ROR classes, the rehabilitation centres. Like me, hundreds of people are taking on ex racers. If they are unsound or unable to be rehabilitated then they should and mostly are put down.
		
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I agree with your sentiment.  I do see Tess1's point though. Again, two wrongs don't make a right.  I just wish that welfare could be improved vastly in all areas of the equine industry.


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## Moomin1 (12 April 2015)

bonny said:



			There is a lot of serious overreaction going on this thread and meantime the real world carries on ! All the horses who ran are fine, the winner has paraded and looks amazing. He got tired, he was entitled to be tired, he recovered within minutes and will be treated like the hero he is for the rest of his life. The people looking for things to complain about in racing are looking the wrong way imo.
		
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The horse couldn't care less if he's a 'hero' for finishing the National.  The horse couldn't care less that he was paraded.  And you cannot possibly say that all the horses who ran are fine.  For starters, one of them has broken ribs.


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## justabob (12 April 2015)

SpringArising said:



			I would be very concerned if I saw a horse being mistreated at a market, rest assured. However, the difference is that a very, very limited amount of horses die (or need to be shot) at the market itself as a result of what is being asked of them. The same can't be said for the Grand National. 

What are your reasons for being in favour of it, besides from an entertainment POV?
		
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Most at a market are shot, sadly they do not arrive looking a million dollars fit to run, they arrive neglected, abused and unwanted.


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## tess1 (12 April 2015)

justabob said:



			There is over breeding in every breed, look at the fly grazing of coloured cobs for a start. The racing industry IS taking responsibility for ex racer, the ROR classes, the rehabilitation centres. Like me, hundreds of people are taking on ex racers. If they are unsound or unable to be rehabilitated then they should and mostly are put down.
		
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Yes, the fly grazing of coloured cobs is absolutely appalling.  Well done for taking on an ex-racer (I hope you are not a 'numpty' as definied by a previous poster).  However, this is a thread about racing ... an industry with a reputation for sending many horses to their death either when they don't achieve the required grade, or they are unsuitable to race for other reasons (temperament etc), or they reach a point where they need to be retired.  As someone has already said - why keep on bringing in other equine welfare concerns ... if you want to defend your sport then do it .. don't just say 'oh, such and such is worse'.    Maybe some folk on here could have a quick scan of point 2 in this article before continuing the discussion ... http://epona.tv/blog/2014/october/arguing-without-arguments


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## bonny (12 April 2015)

Moomin1 said:



			The horse couldn't care less if he's a 'hero' for finishing the National.  The horse couldn't care less that he was paraded.  And you cannot possibly say that all the horses who ran are fine.  For starters, one of them has broken ribs.
		
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This is getting silly, have you seen the video of him today, he looks 100%. Did you see the parade of former winners at Aintree ? All looking amazing and most of them in their 20's. One of the horses was hit by a following horse, yes and his connections say he will be fine. It was a freak accident.


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## Moomin1 (12 April 2015)

bonny said:



			This is getting silly, have you seen the video of him today, he looks 100%. Did you see the parade of former winners at Aintree ? All looking amazing and most of them in their 20's. One of the horses was hit by a following horse, yes and his connections say he will be fine. It was a freak accident.
		
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Of course he will look 100% today. He isn't overheating today.  That's akin to saying that because a horse looks fine today, after it was beaten around the head yesterday, then it must be ok to do so!  

The fact that some National winners reach 20 is irrelevant too.  Many many don't, and it is irrelevant to the point I am talking about - that no horse should be raced in a race such as the National when they are known to over heat.


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## LittleRooketRider (12 April 2015)

tess1 said:



			Yes, perhaps he had learned his lesson from a previous ride on the same horse ... http://www.racingpost.com/news/hors...y-ride/1782801/#newsArchiveTabs=last7DaysNews

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FGS I will not claim to know the ins and outs, but it was not a case of him beating the cr@p out of the horse, but he exceeded the limit of 3 strokes, so anything from 4 strokes...thats not flogging.


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## justabob (12 April 2015)

tess1 said:



			Yes, the fly grazing of coloured cobs is absolutely appalling.  Well done for taking on an ex-racer (I hope you are not a 'numpty' as definied by a previous poster).  However, this is a thread about racing ... an industry with a reputation for sending many horses to their death either when they don't achieve the required grade, or they are unsuitable to race for other reasons (temperament etc), or they reach a point where they need to be retired.  As someone has already said - why keep on bringing in other equine welfare concerns ... if you want to defend your sport then do it .. don't just say 'oh, such and such is worse'.    Maybe some folk on here could have a quick scan of point 2 in this article before continuing the discussion ... http://epona.tv/blog/2014/october/arguing-without-arguments[/
No I am not a numpty, but that is a brilliant article, and I take your point. I am smiling.
		
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## tess1 (12 April 2015)

justabob said:





tess1 said:



			No I am not a numpty, but that is a brilliant article, and I take your point. I am smiling.
		
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:-D  LOL
		
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## tallyho! (12 April 2015)

justabob said:



			There is over breeding in every breed, look at the fly grazing of coloured cobs for a start. The racing industry IS taking responsibility for ex racer, the ROR classes, the rehabilitation centres. Like me, hundreds of people are taking on ex racers. If they are unsound or unable to be rehabilitated then they should and mostly are put down.
		
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It's the only one trying to take responsibility I agree!

Not to put too fine a point on it... is there any need to breed so many foals each year to find a handful of winning horses... Whilst lots of coloured cobs are tethered to the streets and left to die on moors, the numbers of tb's that are slaughtered each year way outnumber tb rehoming. 

Does seem a terrible waste even if you are a supporter of the racing industry...


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## tess1 (12 April 2015)

LittleRooketRider said:



			FGS I will not claim to know the ins and outs, but it was not a case of him beating the cr@p out of the horse, but he exceeded the limit of 3 strokes, so anything from 4 strokes...thats not flogging.
		
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I'm not suggesting he did flog the horse ... I'm saying that there is a possiblity that he was mindful, due to previous experience, of the way he rode the horse at the finish.  Obviously the stewards thought it serious enough to ban him for seven days and fine him £1,800.00


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## SpringArising (12 April 2015)

justabob said:



			Most at a market are shot, sadly they do not arrive looking a million dollars fit to run, they arrive neglected, abused and unwanted.
		
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But they don't die as a result of something that happens at the market, do they? They die because we have a ridiculous over-population of horses in the UK, most of them being worth peanuts. There's a difference.


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## justabob (12 April 2015)

This thread is about the GN and National Hunt horses that are started later and in their prime at 7 years old, some are still raced in their teens. The wastage on the flat is another matter altogether.


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## justabob (12 April 2015)

SpringArising said:



			But they don't die as a result of something that happens at the market, do they? They die because we have a ridiculous over-population of horses in the UK, most of them being worth peanuts. There's a difference.
		
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They die as a result of being at the market.


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## Holly Hocks (12 April 2015)

justabob said:



			This thread is about the GN and National Hunt horses that are started later and in their prime at 7 years old, some are still raced in their teens. The wastage on the flat is another matter altogether.
		
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Justabob I'm with you. I've just read the whole of this thread and am smiling to myself.


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## tess1 (12 April 2015)

Unless they are dead at six .. like Seedling ...


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## justabob (12 April 2015)

Holly Hocks said:



			Justabob I'm with you. I've just read the whole of this thread and am smiling to myself.
		
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Thank you HH.


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## Holly Hocks (12 April 2015)

SpringArising said:



			But they don't die as a result of something that happens at the market, do they? They die because we have a ridiculous over-population of horses in the UK, most of them being worth peanuts. There's a difference.
		
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No it's worse for the market horses.  They arrive in a poor, neglected condition, are sold for peanuts to the meatman to then have to journey in cramped conditions.  If they're lucky they will get a bullet in this country, if not, they can be shipped for hours and hours abroad.  The racehorses get instant veterinary attention.


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## justabob (12 April 2015)

tess1 said:



			Unless they are dead at six .. like Seedling ...
		
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It was an accident Tess1, not willful neglect.


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## tess1 (12 April 2015)

I will copy the point from the article I linked to  here to attempt to make it a little clearer why discussing the fate of equines in markets does not detract from the concerns expressed as to the fate of race horses :

Change the subject

When faced with information they don't like, some people try to deal by making sense of the opponent's claims, examining the evidence and critically reviewing their own attitudes and habits. You don't need that kind of hassle in your life. Instead, make yourself feel better by forcing those who are making you uncomfortable to talk about something else. For instance, if you like to hit horses hard with sticks and someone else says that is wrong, point out that there are worse things in the world. Demand that your opponent deals with everything else on the planet which you deem to be worse than their concern before they can have your permission to proceed with their discussion. If they insist that they have a right to discuss anything they want, regardless of your preferences, accuse them of hypocrisy and not caring about horses who starve or are kept in PMU barns. It is not necessary that you are yourself involved in addressing any of those things that you think are worse than your opponent's concern. You need never have donated a penny to charity or put in a single hour of volunteer work. Just point out everything that's wrong with the world and blame your opponent for not having solved all these problems before getting to the one with which they are currently involved. In many cases, you will be able to shame your opponent into red faced silence, pondering all the ways in which they're not helping horses


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## Moomin1 (12 April 2015)

Holly Hocks said:



			No it's worse for the market horses.  They arrive in a poor, neglected condition, are sold for peanuts to the meatman to then have to journey in cramped conditions.  If they're lucky they will get a bullet in this country, if not, they can be shipped for hours and hours abroad.  The racehorses get instant veterinary attention.
		
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I agree.  My issue is not the lack of veterinary attention with racehorses. Clearly they do get the best of attention in that respect (whilst they are in the care of the trainers etc).  My issue was more about the running of a horse known to over heat.  I just feel that it's something that would cause an absolute outcry if it were, say, in dressage and witnessed on national tv.  Yet it seems to get pretty much accepted in racing.


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## tess1 (12 April 2015)

justabob said:



			It was an accident Tess1, not willful neglect.
		
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sorry, previous post directed at thread in general, not you in particular, I know you read the article 

I appreciate the difference between the two scenarios, but to simplify the argument, two wrongs don't make a right (I think someone said that earlier).


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## justabob (12 April 2015)

You have already made that point a few posts above, I am surprised that you felt the need to reiterated it, it was good the first time. Unfortunately in any discussion comparisons are made, that does not negate any argument.


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## Holly Hocks (12 April 2015)

Moomin1 said:



			I agree.  My issue is not the lack of veterinary attention with racehorses. Clearly they do get the best of attention in that respect (whilst they are in the care of the trainers etc).  My issue was more about the running of a horse known to over heat.  I just feel that it's something that would cause an absolute outcry if it were, say, in dressage and witnessed on national tv.  Yet it seems to get pretty much accepted in racing.
		
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I get you Moomin. And I fully accept your views.  That's the thing with racing.  It is in the public eye all the time so an easy target for criticism.  Racing is fairly transparent.  Unlike other equine sports.  Don't get me started on dressage!


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## Moomin1 (12 April 2015)

Holly Hocks said:



			I get you Moomin. And I fully accept your views.  That's the thing with racing.  It is in the public eye all the time so an easy target for criticism.  Racing is fairly transparent.  Unlike other equine sports.  Don't get me started on dressage!
		
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You're not wrong at all.  There are many issues in all disciplines that make the toes curl sadly.


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## tess1 (12 April 2015)

justabob said:



			You have already made that point a few posts above, I am surprised that you felt the need to reiterated it, it was good the first time. Unfortunately in any discussion comparisons are made, that does not negate any argument.
		
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well, I felt the need to reiterate it because the thread was still going along the lines of 'worse things happen to horses in markets than horses in racing' which is kind of pointless.  I mean we could go down the whole PMU thing, find out how many on this thread are taking hormone replacement therapy and then have a bit of a go a them to detract from the fact that, on average, one horse dies every two days on a race course in the UK.  Or we could discuss how shut down many riding school horses are, or how pissed off horses are at being chased around a round pen in the name of 'join up' ... all sorts of stuff really.  But it doesn't change the fact that you are supporting a sport where an athlete loses their life every other day (more or less).


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## Goldenstar (12 April 2015)

tess1 said:



			Unless they are dead at six .. like Seedling ...
		
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Poor boy .poor groom left with the bridle .


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## justabob (12 April 2015)

What would you like to happen Tess1, stop all racing, stop the breeding of thoroughbreds, stop an industry that employs thousands of people most that love and look after these horses. What are you and all the anti racing people wanting to happen?


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## bonny (12 April 2015)

justabob said:



			What would you like to happen Tess1, stop all racing, stop the breeding of thoroughbreds, stop an industry that employs thousands of people most that love and look after these horses. What are you and all the anti racing people wanting to happen?
		
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I think some of them just want to moan....the Grand National has changed in every way in order to appease people, no horse has died for the last few runnings, hardly any fell on saturday, so they complain that the winner was overtired ! There is no pleasing some people.


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## 3Beasties (12 April 2015)

justabob said:



			What would you like to happen Tess1, stop all racing, stop the breeding of thoroughbreds, stop an industry that employs thousands of people most that love and look after these horses. What are you and all the anti racing people wanting to happen?
		
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And not forgetting stopping the British Horseracing Authority donating over £25 million per year to UK Equine veterinary research (which they currently do!). I'm sure not many of the anti racing people are even aware that this is happening.


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## tess1 (12 April 2015)

justabob said:



			What would you like to happen Tess1, stop all racing, stop the breeding of thoroughbreds, stop an industry that employs thousands of people most that love and look after these horses. What are you and all the anti racing people wanting to happen?
		
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It doesn't matter a jot what I want.  But, what I would like, is for people to be mindful of what they are supporting, and not delude themselves, or try to delude anyone else about what the racing industry really is.  Although ... if you're asking ... the British Horseracing Authority donating 25 million to throroughbred rescue, rehab and retirement might be a start ... after all, if they can do it for veterinary research, why not do it for the well being of the very animals the whole industry is based on?

edited for spelling


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## Goldenstar (12 April 2015)

Hang on not everybody saying  it was not a nice sight is anti racing .
I am not a mad fan of racing I find all the sentimentality around the horses when you watch on telly irksome because the way I see it the horses are modern day gladiators galloping in a cut throat business to appease the yelling masses .
But I am realistic it may have different ethical issues than other horses sports /uses but there's no moral high ground as far as I see it .
Some people like watching dressage or whatever some racing it is all animal use .


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## justabob (12 April 2015)

3Beasties said:



			And not forgetting stopping the British Horseracing Authority donating over £25 million per year to UK Equine veterinary research (which they currently do!). I'm sure not many of the anti racing people are even aware that this is happening.
		
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Precisely.


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## justabob (12 April 2015)

tess1 said:



			It doesn't matter a jot what I want.  But, what I would like, is for people to be mindful of what they are supporting, and not delude themselves, or try to delude anyone else about what the racing industry really is.  Although ... if you're asking ... the British Horseracing Authority donating 25 million to throroughbred rescue, rehab and retirement might be a start ... after all, if they can do it for veterinary research, why not do it for the well being of the very animals the whole industry is based on?

edited for spelling
		
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ok I understand, you want veterinary research to be curtailed and the money spent on rehab and retirement. Money is being spent on rehab and retirement, more so than any other horse sport.


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## tess1 (12 April 2015)

bonny said:



			I think some of them just want to moan....the Grand National has changed in every way in order to appease people, no horse has died for the last few runnings, hardly any fell on saturday, so they complain that the winner was overtired ! There is no pleasing some people.
		
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hmm .. one horse in hospital with broken ribs and a winner that nearly collapsed ... even the pro-racing people were concerned about his condition.  Changes made to 'appease people' - not to improve welfare/chances of horses surviving the race - even though, as you say, no horse has died for the last three(?) runnings.

And you wonder why racing has the reputation it does ....


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## tess1 (12 April 2015)

justabob said:



			ok I understand, you want veterinary research to be curtailed and the money spent on rehab and retirement. Money is being spent on rehab and retirement, more so than any other horse sport.
		
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no, they can keep going with the vet research .... just more money on rescue and rehab.  let's have people step up to the plate and take responsibility for these animals that have entertained them and (in some cases) earned them a good deal of money, not to mention entertainment, prestige, a livelihood and so on.  They should all contribute - the owners, riders, trainers, punters ... they all have their fun, they should all take some responsibility.

edited to add - it should happen in all horse sports ... not just racing.


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## bonny (12 April 2015)

tess1 said:



			hmm .. one horse in hospital with broken ribs and a winner that nearly collapsed ... even the pro-racing people were concerned about his condition.  Changes made to 'appease people' - not to improve welfare/chances of horses surviving the race - even though, as you say, no horse has died for the last three(?) runnings.

And you wonder why racing has the reputation it does ....
		
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I don't think racing has a reputation with the general public, I think on the whole it passes most people by. The only race that people watch in any numbers is the Grand National, so yes, I think it has been altered as a PR excerise and not much else. Maybe it's time it was stopped and racing could just carry on without the annual hand wringing from people who in a lot of cases seem to be basing their whole opinion of racing from one race......


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## tess1 (12 April 2015)

bonny said:



			I don't think racing has a reputation with the general public, I think on the whole it passes most people by. The only race that people watch in any numbers is the Grand National, so yes, I think it has been altered as a PR excerise and not much else. Maybe it's time it was stopped and racing could just carry on without the annual hand wringing from people who in a lot of cases seem to be basing their whole opinion of racing from one race......
		
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My posts on this thread have been about the overall fatalities in racing, as well as what happened at the meeting, and in the National itself.  One horse loses its life every other day (give or take) on a UK race course.  That's not just about the National, or Aintree, although Aintree is one of the courses with the highest rate of fatalities.  With the general public ignorance is bliss ... although more people are expressing concern about Cheltenham Festival, the National etc ... the high profile races with high fatalities do cause concern, even to Joe Public.  'Passing people by' is not the same as 'having welfare standards that stand up to close scrutiny'.


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## Moomin1 (12 April 2015)

bonny said:



			If they are basing their whole opinion on one race, then that says everything. That there is something very wrong about the National to cause that opinion in the first place.  

FWIW, my OH bets on the National every year.  He hates horses.  He hates me having a horse.  However, even he turned around to me on the day of the National and said "I wonder how many will drop this year..".
		
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## justabob (12 April 2015)

tess1 said:



			no, they can keep going with the vet research .... just more money on rescue and rehab.  let's have people step up to the plate and take responsibility for these animals that have entertained them and (in some cases) earned them a good deal of money, not to mention entertainment, prestige, a livelihood and so on.  They should all contribute - the owners, riders, trainers, punters ... they all have their fun, they should all take some responsibility.

edited to add - it should happen in all horse sports ... not just racing.
		
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Glad to hear that you agree to the veterinary research, I am sure Newmarket will be relieved to hear that! As for money spent on rehab I think you should do more research, money is taken out  for this cause, hence the promotion of ROR classes and the numerous rehab centres around the country. There will always be the ones that will not be suitable to be moved on to another life outside the industry, they are normally put down, and rightly so.


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## Goldenstar (12 April 2015)

Racing is dangerous ,eventing is dangerous ( and more so to people than racing ) some people take the view that it's a price worth paying for the 'sport' others do not those who don't should be able to express their views ,they don't have to put up and shut up.


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## Moomin1 (12 April 2015)

Goldenstar said:



			Racing is dangerous ,eventing is dangerous ( and more so to people than racing ) some people take the view that it's a price worth paying for the 'sport' others do not those who don't should be able to express their views ,they don't have to put up and shut up.
		
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Exactly.


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## justabob (12 April 2015)

Goldenstar said:



			Racing is dangerous ,eventing is dangerous ( and more so to people than racing ) some people take the view that it's a price worth paying for the 'sport' others do not those who don't should be able to express their views ,they don't have to put up and shut up.
		
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Of course they should be able to express their views, as are the pro racing. I just wish the antis could be a little more informed before they put fingers to keyboard. Then it would be a little less irritating.


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## tess1 (12 April 2015)

justabob said:



			Glad to hear that you agree to the veterinary research, I am sure Newmarket will be relieved to hear that! As for money spent on rehab I think you should do more research, money is taken out  for this cause, hence the promotion of ROR classes and the numerous rehab centres around the country. There will always be the ones that will not be suitable to be moved on to another life outside the industry, they are normally put down, and rightly so.
		
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Do you know how much is given, and what percentage of horses get a life outside the industry vs percentage of on course fatalities, pts for injuries sustained during racing/training, pts due to simply being unwanted and there is no alternative home for them, or being deemed 'unsuitable' for a life after racing?  Not to mention the ones that fall into neglect.

ROR classes are, I suspect, at least in part a PR exercise, based on the concern expressed by numpties like me as to what happens to horses when their racing life is finished.

I'm sure Newmarket wouldn't give two hoots about my opinions ... but that doesn't mean I'm not entitled to them.


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## bonny (12 April 2015)

Goldenstar said:



			Racing is dangerous ,eventing is dangerous ( and more so to people than racing ) some people take the view that it's a price worth paying for the 'sport' others do not those who don't should be able to express their views ,they don't have to put up and shut up.
		
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It would be good though if people had more informed views instead of posting once a year based on their knowledge of one race. I didn't see Moomin or the others posting after the Hennessy about how tired Many Moons looked. It all gets a bit out of hand and band wagon jumping and I think distracts from what was a good race with a brilliant winner. He deserves some credit for his achievement. Luckily he can't read and will go out for a summer at grass non the wiser !!


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## tess1 (12 April 2015)

justabob said:



			Of course they should be able to express their views, as are the pro racing. I just wish the antis could be a little more informed before they put fingers to keyboard. Then it would be a little less irritating.
		
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What information would you like us to have?  Shall we discuss the myth that horses in racing yards are treated like royalty?  Or shall we discuss the incidence of ulcers and stereotypies.


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## tess1 (12 April 2015)

bonny said:



			It would be good though if people had more informed views instead of posting once a year based on their knowledge of one race. I didn't see Moomin or the others posting after the Hennessy about how tired Many Moons looked. It all gets a bit out of hand and band wagon jumping and I think distracts from what was a good race with a brilliant winner. He deserves some credit for his achievement. Luckily he can't read and will go out for a summer at grass non the wiser !!
		
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You mean like my knowledge of the Hennessy where Aspell received a seven day ban and a fine for inappropriate whip use on Many Clouds ... 

You're right ... the horse can't read and he doesn't worry about 'credit' and he's blissfully unaware of how close he came to collapse on prime time television .. what a PR disaster that would have been ... let's hope they make sure there's no chance of that next year if someone is daft enough to run a horse that is prone to over-heating in something as tough as the National - even if it has been modified.


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## justabob (12 April 2015)

tess1 said:



			What information would you like us to have?  Shall we discuss the myth that horses in racing yards are treated like royalty?  Or shall we discuss the incidence of ulcers and stereotypies.
		
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Of course we should, racehorses are not kept like royalty, they are kept as atheletes by staff that understand them, they are trained and they are fit to do the job required. Should we discuss the laminitics and obese cobs, or should we discuss the many ponies and horses that owners acquire that their owners can't manage? Plenty of them on this forum that end up god knows where. I know comparisons are not really allowed, but sometimes they are necessary.


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## Moomin1 (12 April 2015)

bonny said:



			It would be good though if people had more informed views instead of posting once a year based on their knowledge of one race. I didn't see Moomin or the others posting after the Hennessy about how tired Many Moons looked. It all gets a bit out of hand and band wagon jumping and I think distracts from what was a good race with a brilliant winner. He deserves some credit for his achievement. Luckily he can't read and will go out for a summer at grass non the wiser !!
		
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You're posts are hilarious. Every one of them shows exactly how some people just focus on the 'win factor' rather than the actual bare bones welfare of the horse.  I am not privy to what happened in the Hennessy. I don't follow racing.  It doesn't interest me.  However, I do not remotely need to follow it to form an opinion on the situation involving one horse in one particular race.  Again, you are insinuating that for any person to make a judgement on a welfare concern, they have to know the ins and outs of the particular industry that horse is involved in. Rubbish. 

Your posts are always centred around 'how good the race was', or 'the achievement'.  And you are correct - the horse can't read..he also doesn't give a monkeys about 'winning' or being paraded.


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## Mike007 (12 April 2015)

I had a very educational chat to a random person I met out hacking, who asked me in passing ,what I thought about the grand national. I told him that I believed the fences needed to be put back up and made more solid ,to deter the speed merchants. I also said that my own limited research suggested that less horses were killed when the fences were bigger. I refered him to the 1925 grand national , where (apart from some very bad amateur riding in the later stages of the race which would be absolutely banned now) the race was scarey but safe . At Beecher s every one was spread out and taking the safe hunting line rather than a racing line. My anonymous friend then told me that he was in fact on the committee considering the safety of the GN . It transpires that they do know that making the fences smaller is dangerous ,but that is what the great ignorant public want , and we all know that they must be right......The best that could be done was to try to slow up the field by bringing the first fence nearer the start. The truth is that the doo gooders and supposed animal lovers have turned the race more dangerous, yet any attempt to make it safer and slower ,by making it tougher ,could lead to its banning.


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## Goldenstar (12 April 2015)

Mike007 said:



			I had a very educational chat to a random person I met out hacking, who asked me in passing ,what I thought about the grand national. I told him that I believed the fences needed to be put back up and made more solid ,to deter the speed merchants. I also said that my own limited research suggested that less horses were killed when the fences were bigger. I refered him to the 1925 grand national , where (apart from some very bad amateur riding in the later stages of the race which would be absolutely banned now) the race was scarey but safe . At Beecher s every one was spread out and taking the safe hunting line rather than a racing line. My anonymous friend then told me that he was in fact on the committee considering the safety of the GN . It transpires that they do know that making the fences smaller is dangerous ,but that is what the great ignorant public want , and we all know that they must be right......The best that could be done was to try to slow up the field by bringing the first fence nearer the start. The truth is that the doo gooders and supposed animal lovers have turned the race more dangerous, yet any attempt to make it safer and slower ,by making it tougher ,could lead to its banning.
		
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What's the evidence the race is more dangerous now .


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## tess1 (12 April 2015)

justabob said:



			Of course we should, racehorses are not kept like royalty, they are kept as atheletes by staff that understand them, they are trained and they are fit to do the job required.
		
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To the detriment of their physiological and ethological needs.  Yes, they are thoroughbreds ... they are also horses.  They are not so specialised that they do not have the social/ethological and dietry requirements of any other kind of horse.  And yet these are frequently overlooked in the priority to create horses that are 'fit to do the job'.  Again, the needs of the racing industry take priority over the welfare of the animals the industry is based on.


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## justabob (12 April 2015)

Mike007 I so agree with you, but times have changed, we no longer have the old fashioned big boned chaser bred horses any more, those horses were not trained over hurdles to prepare them for the national. I think some were given a prep race over hurdles. Those old fashioned horses could almost show jump round. Now I think there would be carnage if the course was left as it was before.


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## tess1 (12 April 2015)

Mike007 said:



			I had a very educational chat to a random person I met out hacking, who asked me in passing ,what I thought about the grand national. I told him that I believed the fences needed to be put back up and made more solid ,to deter the speed merchants. I also said that my own limited research suggested that less horses were killed when the fences were bigger. I refered him to the 1925 grand national , where (apart from some very bad amateur riding in the later stages of the race which would be absolutely banned now) the race was scarey but safe . At Beecher s every one was spread out and taking the safe hunting line rather than a racing line. My anonymous friend then told me that he was in fact on the committee considering the safety of the GN . It transpires that they do know that making the fences smaller is dangerous ,but that is what the great ignorant public want , and we all know that they must be right......The best that could be done was to try to slow up the field by bringing the first fence nearer the start. The truth is that the doo gooders and supposed animal lovers have turned the race more dangerous, yet any attempt to make it safer and slower ,by making it tougher ,could lead to its banning.
		
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I have heard this anecdotally as well ... and yet fence 1/17 accounts for 4 fatalities, vs around 45 on the other fences.

And the last three years have had no fatalities - assuming (God willing) BK recovers.


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## criso (13 April 2015)

tess1 said:



			I have heard this anecdotally as well
.
		
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No need to rely on anecdotes - here are the stats.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_equine_fatalities_in_the_Grand_National.  There were less in the 70 and 80 than in the 90s and 00s after the modifications but I suspect the answer is a lot more complex as there were even less in the 60s though more in the 50s.


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## madmav (13 April 2015)

All you anti grand national peeps need to do is vote Green. Their utterly useless leader announced today she intends to ban the GN if they get a sniff of power.


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## Moomin1 (13 April 2015)

madmav said:



			All you anti grand national peeps need to do is vote Green. Their utterly useless leader announced today she intends to ban the GN if they get a sniff of power.
		
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Intelligent response.


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## Peter Webber (13 April 2015)

whiteroom said:



			Having enjoyed this for years I feel saddened today, the winner looked so tired it was saddening, Channel 4's coverage of his recovery was just too much for me. 

Wish we could hear of Balthazar King's condition too.

Will I watch again, probably yes but not on Channel 4
		
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Would it not be safer for the horses if the course was shortened to avoid this over exertion?


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## siennamum (13 April 2015)

justabob said:



			Of course we should, racehorses are not kept like royalty, they are kept as atheletes by staff that understand them, they are trained and they are fit to do the job required. Should we discuss the laminitics and obese cobs, or should we discuss the many ponies and horses that owners acquire that their owners can't manage? Plenty of them on this forum that end up god knows where. I know comparisons are not really allowed, but sometimes they are necessary.
		
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I had ducked out of this thread because it was getting typically rabid, but this makes me laugh.

I should say that I won a few quid on Saturday, enjoyed most of the race and apologise to more rabid supporters of horseracing for being upset by watching a horse get repeatedly hit till it was near collapse.

I know virtually none of the livery yard owners described above. Most people I know are sufficiently knowledgeable and caring to keep their horses/ponies in excellent conditions.

I DO know a bit about racing tho (bizarre isn't it) and I generally am content to support NH, and feel the horses are really well looked after.

Life for many Flat horses is an entirely different matter. They are not cared for by staff who understand them and treated by royalty. They are cared for by staff from the Indian subcontinent who are clueless about horses, and by and large indifferent to their welfare. These lads are on minimum wage and recruited for that reason and because they are lightweight. These hundreds of 2 year olds are kept in pretty appalling conditions IMO, isolated in a stable 23 hours a day, galloped once a day, fed grains & limited roughage etc etc. They are ancient horses by the time they are 5 year olds, and that's if they are one of the few who live that long.

You may think that's fine. I don't. Simples.


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## 3Beasties (13 April 2015)

Peter Webber said:



			Would it not be safer for the horses if the course was shortened to avoid this over exertion?
		
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Shortening the course is likely to make them run faster which in turn would probably cause more falls/injuries.


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## SpringArising (13 April 2015)

3Beasties said:



			Shortening the course is likely to make them run faster which in turn would probably cause more falls/injuries.
		
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As opposed to having the race so long, they are absolutely shattered and having to haul themselves over the jumps?


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## TelH (13 April 2015)

Copied from Philip Hobbs' Facebook page this morning for anyone who is interested...

'Balthazar King has had a good 24 hours and making steady progress. He has broken a couple of ribs and is very sore but is eating and seems bright in himself. Thank you for all your kind messages of support we will keep you updated.'


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## Goldenstar (13 April 2015)

TelH said:



			Copied from Philip Hobbs' Facebook page this morning for anyone who is interested...

'Balthazar King has had a good 24 hours and making steady progress. He has broken a couple of ribs and is very sore but is eating and seems bright in himself. Thank you for all your kind messages of support we will keep you updated.'
		
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Thanks for posting its good he's going on ok .


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## FairyLights (13 April 2015)

The Grand National should be banned its horse abuse.


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## fburton (13 April 2015)

madmav said:



			All you anti grand national peeps need to do is vote Green. Their utterly useless leader announced today she intends to ban the GN if they get a sniff of power.
		
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This is one of the Greens' policies I do _not_ support. Luckily there is no chance of them forming the next government and it will take more than a sniff of power to jeopardize the GN.


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## fburton (13 April 2015)

criso said:



			No need to rely on anecdotes - here are the stats.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_equine_fatalities_in_the_Grand_National.  There were less in the 70 and 80 than in the 90s and 00s after the modifications but I suspect the answer is a lot more complex as there were even less in the 60s though more in the 50s.
		
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As a matter of interest, are euthanasias due to race injuries that are performed off-course counted in the official stats?


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## hcm88 (13 April 2015)

madmav said:



			All you anti grand national peeps need to do is vote Green. Their utterly useless leader announced today she intends to ban the GN if they get a sniff of power.
		
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Jesus! I see they've failed to actually research and think that policy through (like the majority of their policies, but lets not get political).

Whether people like the GN or not the racing industry is such a huge economic earner that without it we'd be stuffed. If anyone wants to do anything about it they need to look towards making it safer (which has been done and to great effect) not banning it entirely. Its unrealistic to expect it to be banned, efforts to campaign for it to be so would be better placed elsewhere in my opinion. I will worry if the Greens get a shred of power...


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## Dobiegirl (13 April 2015)

https://witteringwoman.wordpress.co...n-life-than-death-in-support-of-horse-racing/


I tried to post yesterday but all my posts went into the ether, this lady says what I feel and she says it so much better than me.


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## ester (13 April 2015)

yet when questioned about it on radio 4 she was back tracking a fair bit!


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## criso (13 April 2015)

fburton said:



			As a matter of interest, are euthanasias due to race injuries that are performed off-course counted in the official stats?
		
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There's a few where it says later or a few days later but there will be gaps I would think where the horse was given time but didn't come right.

It may not represent the total number of horses but I posted it as the discussion had turned to whether the course alterations had helped or not so it seemed relevant to compare years.


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## fburton (13 April 2015)

Okay, thanks Criso!


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## 3Beasties (13 April 2015)

Dobiegirl said:



https://witteringwoman.wordpress.co...n-life-than-death-in-support-of-horse-racing/


I tried to post yesterday but all my posts went into the ether, this lady says what I feel and she says it so much better than me.
		
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*like*


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## Baggybreeches (13 April 2015)

ridefast said:



			Didn't look like the horse tied up, looked like over heating. It was a hot day, all the horses looked tired when they finished. I was pleased we were kept updated on the horses
		
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I was there, it wasn't hot at all. The conditions were perfect, the temperature was around 8 degrees C with a stiff breeze blowing across from the west.


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## Smurf's Gran (13 April 2015)

Dobiegirl said:



https://witteringwoman.wordpress.co...n-life-than-death-in-support-of-horse-racing/


I tried to post yesterday but all my posts went into the ether, this lady says what I feel and she says it so much better than me.
		
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Mmmm I also like racing, and support the view that NH horses (at an elite level) will be cared for, have the best vet attention etc.  I'm also aware that there are many other accidents in racing and these tend to go largely unseen by the majority of the public  (such as a fatal fall in a seller at Uttoxeter for example)

I love the GN, however....

The article you posted really irritated me, it displayed a certain stance that only serves to polarise arguments and prevent any sort of useful dialogue between disagreeing sides. 

1. It was the assumption expressed that the animal rights activists were actually pleased that horses had been injured etc as this proved their point re racing, and that they are more bothered re winning the argument than the fate of the horses

2.  And also the view that anyone who is anti NH doesn't understand racing.

I was actually agreeing with the article until I read those comments, it has put me off totally.


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## BigBuck's (13 April 2015)

tess1 said:



			no, they can keep going with the vet research .... just more money on rescue and rehab.  let's have people step up to the plate and take responsibility for these animals that have entertained them and (in some cases) earned them a good deal of money, not to mention entertainment, prestige, a livelihood and so on.  They should all contribute - the owners, riders, trainers, punters ... they all have their fun, they should all take some responsibility.

edited to add - it should happen in all horse sports ... not just racing.
		
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You may not be aware that a proportion of the entry fee for every horse in every UK race is donated to RoR.


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## BigBuck's (13 April 2015)

Smurf's Gran said:



			Mmmm I also like racing, and support the view that NH horses (at an elite level) will be cared for, have the best vet attention etc.  I'm also aware that there are many other accidents in racing and these tend to go largely unseen by the majority of the public  (such as a fatal fall in a seller at Uttoxeter for example)

I love the GN, however....

The article you posted really irritated me, it displayed a certain stance that only serves to polarise arguments and prevent any sort of useful dialogue between disagreeing sides. 

1. It was the assumption expressed that the animal rights activists were actually pleased that horses had been injured etc as this proved their point re racing, and that they are more bothered re winning the argument than the fate of the horses

2.  And also the view that anyone who is anti NH doesn't understand racing.

I was actually agreeing with the article until I read those comments, it has put me off totally.
		
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I read the article too.  I didn't see anything expressed that "anyone who is anti NH doesn't understand racing"?  Could you quote which bit that was?

And to be fair, I saw a few comments on the AA and PETA pages on Facebook in the aftermath of the news about Balder Succes that seemed to support the author of the article's stance, some of the comments being made by some of the hardcore antis were distasteful to say the least.


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## Smurf's Gran (13 April 2015)

"At the same time, the more extreme elements within certain animal rights groups were seizing on the news with what I can only describe as glee.  It was hard, if not impossible, to escape the conclusion that they were glad that these horses had died, because it was more ammunition for their cause.

And that&#8217;s the point.  The point that the antis and an increasing proportion of the general public find hard to understand.  The vast, vast majority of those connected to racing, either as industry employees or fans, love the horses."  

It is this that puts me off, it does the writer no favours.  I love NH racing, but hate the polarisation of the argument.  Always the assumption that if someone doesn't agree, its because they dont understand, actually maybe they understand well enough!!


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## Smurf's Gran (13 April 2015)

BigBuck's said:



			You may not be aware that a proportion of the entry fee for every horse in every UK race is donated to RoR.
		
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What is the proportion please?


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## Dobiegirl (13 April 2015)

Some of the rhetoric on the AA site was very emotive and the way it was read it looked like 2 horses died in the GN, they tell people that the owners,trainers,jockeys are just in it for the money and dont care about their horses.

Most owners will never earn a penny from their horses, they race their horses because they love racing and if they earn a bit of money then that is seen as a bonus.


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## Elf On A Shelf (13 April 2015)

The reality of horse racing in monetary terms. 

Today we took 6 horses to Kelso. The total sales value they were all bought for £227k - yes two hundred and twenty seven THOUSAND pounds! How mus did they win between them? Just over £1k for a 2nd place. 

Break that down for the horse that was 2nd - £22k bought for, on average £1700 a month to train. £80 a month on shoes, £75 racing transport, £30 lads day expenses, £120 jockey fee. Take out the jockeys, trainers and stable staffs percentage of his £1k winnings and the owners are left with about £800. Not much return for what they are paying. That is the reality of your average racehorse.

The only was to make money in racing is to strike lucky and buy yourself a Danedream or Lie Forrit as scraggy worthless youngsters that turn into something fantastic!


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## Nicnac (13 April 2015)

Dobiegirl said:



https://witteringwoman.wordpress.co...n-life-than-death-in-support-of-horse-racing/


I tried to post yesterday but all my posts went into the ether, this lady says what I feel and she says it so much better than me.
		
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What a wonderfully balanced and knowledgeable article.


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## tess1 (13 April 2015)

BigBuck's said:



			You may not be aware that a proportion of the entry fee for every horse in every UK race is donated to RoR.
		
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hmmm ... this is taken from the facebook page of the Racehorse Rescue Centre, posted on 11th April ... As a registered charity we receive nothing from the racing industry in way of support. They donate 100k to RoR each year which RoR support four horse charities. It is no way near enough to look after the 5,000 horses retired from racing each year. Horses are looked after while in racing and charities like ours are left to pick up the pieces when they leave. There is enough money in the industry for each horse to have a retirement fund that follows it wherever it goes.

https://www.facebook.com/theRRC


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## Smurf's Gran (13 April 2015)

tess1 said:



			hmmm ... this is taken from the facebook page of the Racehorse Rescue Centre, posted on 11th April ... As a registered charity we receive nothing from the racing industry in way of support. They donate 100k to RoR each year which RoR support four horse charities. It is no way near enough to look after the 5,000 horses retired from racing each year. Horses are looked after while in racing and charities like ours are left to pick up the pieces when they leave. There is enough money in the industry for each horse to have a retirement fund that follows it wherever it goes.

https://www.facebook.com/theRRC

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I did wonder if it was paying lip service as it were


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## tess1 (13 April 2015)

Smurf's Gran said:



			I did wonder if it was paying lip service as it were
		
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yes, I think that's a reasonable way to put it.

And from the 'wonderfully balanced and knowledgable article' that someone else posted ...  "The vast, vast majority of those connected to racing, either as industry employees or fans, love the horses." 

So I think it's only fair to say it's time they put their money where their mouth is ... 

And by the way ... at least from my experience .. those who may be 'anti' do not take joy in the pain and death of horses.  Far from it.


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## ycbm (13 April 2015)

Dobiegirl said:



https://witteringwoman.wordpress.co...n-life-than-death-in-support-of-horse-racing/


I tried to post yesterday but all my posts went into the ether, this lady says what I feel and she says it so much better than me.
		
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Two points in that article, one completely incorrect and one very misleading.

It is completely incorrect to say that you cannot make a horse which is unwell or unhappy race. Racing is a natural 'lion gets the hindmost' innate reaction for horses and very few will not race if part of a group which are running, even if they are lame.  And I believe that the a very large proportion of racers test positive for stomach ulcers due to the way they are kept, so horses which have diseases entirely due to a racing lifestyle can and do race.

It is totally misleading, in the context of writing about the Grand National, to quote a death  in racing rate of 0.2 per cent, one in five hundred starters.   That figure is for ALL racing, I believe, and the figure for jump racing is, I think, one in 250 starters, twice as high. It means that it is completely expected that a horse will die for every 250 horses that cross a start line. One every few days.

Other than that, I understand where she is coming from.

I see that the odds of 25 to 1 are being offered for Many Clouds to win the National in 2016,  And I agree with everyone who says that if the horse runs a race of that length again then there are some very serious welfare issues in his management.  I was also slightly saddened to see that instead of relaxing quietly in a paddock full of grass yesterday, he was paraded through the streets of Newmarket.


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## AdorableAlice (13 April 2015)

ycbm said:



			I was also slightly saddened to see that instead of relaxing quietly in a paddock full of grass yesterday, he was paraded through the streets of Newmarket.
		
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And that comment shows the lack of knowledge so prevalent in this thread.  The horse is fit and on a strict nutrition and care routine, a belly full of grass is hardly appropriate, safe or wise.


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## Moomin1 (13 April 2015)

AdorableAlice said:



			And that comment shows the lack of knowledge so prevalent in this thread.  The horse is fit and on a strict nutrition and care routine, a belly full of grass is hardly appropriate, safe or wise.
		
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I think you've probably misinterpreted ycbm's meaning there. 

I don't think she literally means 'a paddock full of grass'. I think she was probably more getting at the disappointment that the horse wasn't  being rested quietly at home.  Though maybe I have got that wrong.


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## bonny (13 April 2015)

AdorableAlice said:



			And that comment shows the lack of knowledge so prevalent in this thread.  The horse is fit and on a strict nutrition and care routine, a belly full of grass is hardly appropriate, safe or wise.
		
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he doesn't live in Newmarket !


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## ycbm (13 April 2015)

AdorableAlice said:



			And that comment shows the lack of knowledge so prevalent in this thread.  The horse is fit and on a strict nutrition and care routine, a belly full of grass is hardly appropriate, safe or wise.
		
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It was my understanding that there are National Hunt yards, although rare, with horses in training which graze for a period every day. If the horse had been in one of those yards, it would not have been unsafe for him to be in a paddock yesterday and I was saddened that he wasn't.


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## tess1 (13 April 2015)

AdorableAlice said:



			And that comment shows the lack of knowledge so prevalent in this thread.  The horse is fit and on a strict nutrition and care routine, a belly full of grass is hardly appropriate, safe or wise.
		
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Well, let's turn him out in an all weather arena then ... shall we, for a roll and a buck and a kick?  Because of course parading a horse that nearly collapsed the day before is absolutely the most appropriate thing to do.  As is running him next year ...


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## ycbm (13 April 2015)

bonny said:



			he doesn't live in Newmarket !
		
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I'm not sure if I got that wrong or the Daily Express, but he was paraded through the streets of his home town, wherever that was.

Edited to add.
Apologies, Lambourn, I always confuse the two huge racing centres for each other.


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## bonny (13 April 2015)

tess1 said:



			Well, let's turn him out in an all weather arena then ... shall we, for a roll and a buck and a kick?  Because of course parading a horse that nearly collapsed the day before is absolutely the most appropriate thing to do.  As is running him next year ...
		
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So many experts on here ! I think Oliver Sherwood knows what he's doing....the horse is fine


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## 3Beasties (13 April 2015)

tess1 said:



			Well, let's turn him out in an all weather arena then ... shall we, for a roll and a buck and a kick?  Because of course parading a horse that nearly collapsed the day before is absolutely the most appropriate thing to do.  As is running him next year ...
		
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How do we know he wasn't turned out for a roll and a buck/kick prior to or/and following the parade? I'm sure had they felt that he had not recovered enough from the efforts of the race they wouldn't have paraded him at all.

Also just because they have stated the odds for him next year it doesn't mean he will run.


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## tess1 (13 April 2015)

bonny said:



			So many experts on here ! I think Oliver Sherwood knows what he's doing....the horse is fine
		
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lol Oliver Sherwood didn't even want the horse to run ... it was the owner who wanted it to happen.

Now they can't wait to run him again ... even though he over-heated so badly this time.  Of course, the horse's welfare always comes first ....


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## bonny (13 April 2015)

tess1 said:



			lol Oliver Sherwood didn't even want the horse to run ... it was the owner who wanted it to happen.

Now they can't wait to run him again ... even though he over-heated so badly this time.  Of course, the horse's welfare always comes first ....
		
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It's a year away so who knows .....a lot can happen in that time and I imagine the priority will be the Gold Cup


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## tess1 (13 April 2015)

bonny said:



			It's a year away so who knows .....a lot can happen in that time and I imagine the priority will be the Gold Cup
		
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Surely the priority should be the horse.


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## Moomin1 (13 April 2015)

tess1 said:



			Surely the priority should be the horse.
		
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I imagine Bonny is completely correct. The priority will be the Gold Cup..


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## tess1 (13 April 2015)

Moomin1 said:



			I imagine Bonny is completely correct. The priority will be the Gold Cup..
		
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surely not ... not in a sport where everyone *loves* the horses so much ...


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## bonny (13 April 2015)

tess1 said:



			surely not ... not in a sport where everyone *loves* the horses so much ...
		
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This is just getting stupid, he is a racehorse not a pet.


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## teapot (13 April 2015)

ycbm said:



			I was also slightly saddened to see that instead of relaxing quietly in a paddock full of grass yesterday, he was paraded through the streets of Newmarket.
		
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He was paraded in his home village, not Newmarket, upon arrival on Sunday, after staying at Aintree Saturday night. I assume they stayed in Liverpool to give him some time post race instead of shoving him straight back on a lorry for a 200 odd mile trip home. 

Looks like he'll parade at Sandown in a couple of weeks time and then the summer off as per most NH horses. http://www1.skysports.com/racing/ne...et-to-return-for-2016-crabbies-grand-national 

Also, I see Oscar Time has been retired :smile3:


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## tess1 (13 April 2015)

bonny said:



			This is just getting stupid, he is a racehorse not a pet.
		
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But what about the well-balanced and informed article that said that almost everyone in racing loved the horses?


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## tess1 (13 April 2015)

teapot said:



			He was paraded in his home village, not Newmarket, upon arrival on Sunday, after staying at Aintree Saturday night. I assume they stayed in Liverpool to give him some time post race instead of shoving him straight back on a lorry for a 200 odd mile trip home. 

Looks like he'll parade at Sandown in a couple of weeks time and then the summer off as per most NH horses. http://www1.skysports.com/racing/ne...et-to-return-for-2016-crabbies-grand-national 

Also, I see Oscar Time has been retired :smile3:
		
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oh, so he was paraded after a 200 odd mile trip in a lorry.  After running the toughest steeple chase in the world and nearly collapsing the day before.  

Good news about Oscar Time


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## firm (13 April 2015)

Many Clouds finished tired but soon perked up and having returned to a heroes welcome he has eaten up and was full of himself when taken out to the paddock on Sunday morning.

"We stayed up in Cheshire last night and we are on our way back to the yard right now, but I have spoken to my team and he has eaten up," Sherwood told the Racing Post.

"He's been out in the paddock this morning, and apparently he was bucking and kicking, and they can't believe how well he is. He's certainly in a lot better shape than any of the humans involved."

Sherwood will be parading his Grand National winner from Rhonehurst to Lambourn village from 11am.


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## Tiddlypom (13 April 2015)

A question for the 'knowledgeable' contributors on this thread, please .

Are racecourse vets routinely made aware of any potential issues with any of the runners before racing? Say, for instance, one tends to overheat, or another may be a bleeder, or yet another have had a heart arrhythmia? 

It would seem eminently sensible that they should be fully briefed beforehand.


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## bonny (13 April 2015)

Tiddlypom said:



			A question for the 'knowledgeable' contributors on this thread, please .

Are racecourse vets routinely made aware of any potential issues with any of the runners before racing? Say, for instance, one tends to overheat, or another may be a bleeder, or yet another have had a heart arrhythmia? 

It would seem eminently sensible that they should be fully briefed beforehand.
		
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If a horse runs an unexpected bad race due to a medical problem then the trainer is obliged to inform the stewards of the reason why and they go public with the information.


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## tess1 (13 April 2015)

firm said:



			Many Clouds finished tired but soon perked up and having returned to a heroes welcome he has eaten up and was full of himself when taken out to the paddock on Sunday morning.

"We stayed up in Cheshire last night and we are on our way back to the yard right now, but I have spoken to my team and he has eaten up," Sherwood told the Racing Post.

"He's been out in the paddock this morning, and apparently he was bucking and kicking, and they can't believe how well he is. He's certainly in a lot better shape than any of the humans involved."

Sherwood will be parading his Grand National winner from Rhonehurst to Lambourn village from 11am.
		
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well ... if you wanted to completely cynical ... that's the 'spin' version ....

how about:

Many Clouds finished exhausted and but for the swift care he got post-race we would have had a collapsed horse at the end of the National, and possibly a dead one.  We are thankful he is still with us.  He was unloaded to loud crowds that he didn't really need, as he has no idea what a hero is ... 

I've gone on ahead to the celebratory party, but I've spoken to the folks who are taking care of him and he is eating his food.  They can't believe how well he is considering how bad he looked at the finished yesterday.   We've all got stinking hangovers.


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## Elf On A Shelf (13 April 2015)

Tiddlypom said:



			A question for the 'knowledgeable' contributors on this thread, please .

Are racecourse vets routinely made aware of any potential issues with any of the runners before racing? Say, for instance, one tends to overheat, or another may be a bleeder, or yet another have had a heart arrhythmia? 

It would seem eminently sensible that they should be fully briefed beforehand.
		
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No. Unless they look into the horse or they recognise the horse from having dealt with it on previous outings. The vets have a list of ones to trot up upon arrival - ones that pulled up lame last time out or have been off for a significant amount of time (usually at least a year) and ones that ran the day before. 

The stable staff know their horses and what they are dealing with and will either take an extra person to help with a wobbler or get the guys around them to help as I did today. Said horse is known for over heating so I had 2 of the gate staff and myself plus my other leader upper greet the horse with a bucket in hand. Poor ****** didnt know what him him! Neither dod the jockey Muahahahahahahhahaaaaa! 4 buckets before he had even left he course, a further 6 back in the paddock before 2 full hosing downs and he hadn't even shown the slightest sign of over heating but I would rather not risk it.


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## Elf On A Shelf (13 April 2015)

As to the parading of Many Clouds - parading at home I have no issue with. Saint Ar who finished 2nd in the National was driven home that night and then taken to a point to point of all places! And paraded there the next day! Not sure how far the ptp was from the trainers yard but I did not see the need for that in the slightest! Plus he was only 2nd! He didn't win!


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## justabob (13 April 2015)

tess1 said:



			But what about the well-balanced and informed article that said that almost everyone in racing loved the horses?
		
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Now you really are losing the plot Tess1, your posts are becoming more and more ridiculous.


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## 3Beasties (13 April 2015)

EKW - I know that many NH horses get a break for the Summer now, are they gradually let down over time? Just wondering what the norm is! From reading above it sounds like Many clouds will have a couple of weeks at the yard (winding down work?) and then turned out? Is that right? Just curious


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## bonny (13 April 2015)

3Beasties said:



			EKW - I know that many NH horses get a break for the Summer now, are they gradually let down over time? Just wondering what the norm is! From reading above it sounds like Many clouds will have a couple of weeks at the yard (winding down work?) and then turned out? Is that right? Just curious 

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He'll stay on the yard until the end of the season as he's going to Sandown and just get turned out through the day I would imagine.


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## Elf On A Shelf (13 April 2015)

Yup many will come back into work, do a few days walking before a couple of steady canters to make sure all is in working order before spending the next week or 2 either walking under saddle or on the horse walker with increased turnout time to get used to being a scruff bag again. The wind down is vital for keeping the muscles healthy. 

Ours dont get ridden again once the decision is made to put them away instead they will do a couple of weeks on the walker with a few lunging sessions to make sure all is well.


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## 3Beasties (13 April 2015)

That's what I expected, thank you for the clarification!


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## justabob (13 April 2015)

ycbm said:



			I'm not sure if I got that wrong or the Daily Express, but he was paraded through the streets of his home town, wherever that was.

Edited to add.
Apologies, Lambourn, I always confuse the two huge racing centres for each other.
		
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To confuse the two shows a lack of interest in racing. Newmarket is the headquarters of flat racing, Lambourn is a small village that centers around a few National Hunt yards.


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## ester (13 April 2015)

bonny said:



			If a horse runs an unexpected bad race due to a medical problem then the trainer is obliged to inform the stewards of the reason why and they go public with the information.
		
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Not the same as issues after the race though.


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## Tiddlypom (13 April 2015)

Thanks both. 

I'm surprised that the vets are not routinely briefed. If something happens out on the course then the stable staff may not be around to pass on info.


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## bonny (13 April 2015)

Tiddlypom said:



			Thanks both. 

I'm surprised that the vets are not routinely briefed. If something happens out on the course then the stable staff may not be around to pass on info.
		
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The vets are on the course in case of an emergency, not for routine things, that's up to the trainer.


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## Tiddlypom (13 April 2015)

bonny said:



			The vets are on the course in case of an emergency, not for routine things, that's up to the trainer.
		
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But if the horse has a recurrence of a known issue mid race, it would assist the vets to know what they may be dealing with, surely?


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## bonny (13 April 2015)

Tiddlypom said:



			But if the horse has a recurrence of a known issue mid race, it would assist the vets to know what they may be dealing with, surely?
		
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Such as what ? I can't think of a situation where it would help for the vets to know any background info. They deal with what they are faced with on the day. A bleeder usually just pulls up and walks back to the stables. A horse that goes lame would be assessed on the course and dealt with accordingly.


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## tess1 (13 April 2015)

justabob said:



			Now you really are losing the plot Tess1, your posts are becoming more and more ridiculous.
		
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well of course that's your opinion and you are more than entitled to it.  But to me, some of the posts on here trying to support/defend racing have been equally ridiculous ... but there's no point in just telling people they are ridiculous ... you have to actually back up your statement with some evidence.  So someone posted a link to an article that was described as 'well balanced and informative' or some such ... in said article apparently almost everyone connected to horses in racing loved the horses.  And that has been repeated on here in several posts.  Hmmm ... well I think that it is pretty clear from someone's comments that 'love' is reserved for pets ... not for racehorses.  And if everyone 'loved' the horses as much as the 'balanced and well informed' article claimed there would be much more money going into the rehab and retirement of horses when their racing careers ended than the paltry token gesture of £100,000 currently shared between four charities which seems a drop in the ocean when you think that the racing industry chews up and spits out 5000 horses per year.  Yes, you can call me ridiculous.  What would you call yourself for defending a sport which claims the life of one of its athletes every other day, and gives not a jot about them when they fail to give sufficient entertainment value to owners for day out at the races?


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## LittleRooketRider (13 April 2015)

If I recall from the post-race interview withe the groom- attempting to attend to MC whilst Alice (was it) persisted in trying to get the 'scoop' - said something about they were all prpepared for his return  and were aware that he may do this henec why thy had a team armed with buckets of water etc. and he was then taken to the facility for cooling off, there was a vet present as well.

Just another to add my immense irritation at first hampering LA from dismounting and then preventing OS from going to see the horse. TBH the general coverage was pretty dire

A little something to take a break from 'The Big Debate' I thought it was nice that some of the comraderie often alluded tp by Jockeys was shown eg. the fallen jockeys cheering the winners and other runners past the post.


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## bonny (13 April 2015)

LittleRooketRider said:



			If I recall from the post-race interview withe the groom- attempting to attend to MC whilst Alice (was it) persisted in trying to get the 'scoop' - said something about they were all prpepared for his return  and were aware that he may do this henec why thy had a team armed with buckets of water etc. and he was then taken to the facility for cooling off, there was a vet present as well.

Just another to add my immense irritation at first hampering LA from dismounting and then preventing OS from going to see the horse. TBH the general coverage was pretty dire

A little something to take a break from 'The Big Debate' I thought it was nice that some of the comraderie often alluded tp by Jockeys was shown eg. the fallen jockeys cheering the winners and other runners past the post.
		
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That's not true....all the horses at Aintree, over the 3 days were greeted by teams of people with water, whether they needed a soaking or not ! It's a recent innovation brought in at the same time as the fences were lowered etc. There is always a vet present at every racemeeting.


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## firm (13 April 2015)

Tess just to give you more facts as you do not seem to have researched this properly. At least two owners donated around £5m between them for retired racehorses.  When Dubai Millennium died his owner donated £1m odd towards  grass sickness research and he also raised the profile of this awful disease. As someone who lives in the epicentre of this disease and knows many people who have lost horses to it that info sticks with me. I am sure you can find more info if you research but it might not suit your agenda.


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## tess1 (13 April 2015)

firm said:



			Tess just to give you more facts as you do not seem to have researched this properly. At least two owners donated around £5m between them for retired racehorses.  When Dubai Millennium died his owner donated £1m odd towards  grass sickness research and he also raised the profile of this awful disease. As someone who lives in the epicentre of this disease and knows many people who have lost horses to it that info sticks with me. I am sure you can find more info if you research but it might not suit your agenda.
		
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that's brilliant that individuals are stepping up to the plate and being very generous.  The point is that it shouldn't be down to individuals ... there should be a retirement fund for every racehorse to ensure that they get the appropriate care when their careers have ended.  If people want to add into that, then it's wonderful ... but my point is that these horses live a hard life (some harder than others) and when they can't 'give' anymore their future is very uncertain.  Some I am sure do end up in excellent homes, or are fortunate enough to be taken in by charities ... but it's the luck of the draw isn't it ... and the luck runs out for a lot of them.


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## SpringArising (13 April 2015)

tess1 said:



			there should be a retirement fund for every racehorse
		
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I totally respect that you're just concerned and want the best for the horses, but it's completely ridiculous to ask or expect that of anyone.

If that were to happen then it would also need to be for all ex-racers, ex-polo ponies and the horses who no longer work in the Household Cavalry etc.

It just wouldn't work.


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## LittleRooketRider (13 April 2015)

bonny said:



			That's not true....all the horses at Aintree, over the 3 days were greeted by https://forums-secure.horseandhound.co.uk/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=12882960teams of people with water, whether they needed a soaking or not ! It's a recent innovation brought in at the same time as the fences were lowered etc. There is always a vet present at every racemeeting.
		
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Apologies that is how I interpretted what they said, ...but is that not even better.


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## tess1 (13 April 2015)

SpringArising said:



			I totally respect that you're just concerned and want the best for the horses, but it's completely ridiculous to ask or expect that of anyone.

If that were to happen then it would also need to be for all ex-racers, ex-polo ponies and the horses who no longer work in the Household Cavalry etc.

It just wouldn't work.
		
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It's completely ridiculous to ask or expect that of anyone ... 

Really?

From an industry where they can give 25 million to vet research ...?


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## justabob (13 April 2015)

tess1 said:



			well of course that's your opinion and you are more than entitled to it.  But to me, some of the posts on here trying to support/defend racing have been equally ridiculous ... but there's no point in just telling people they are ridiculous ... you have to actually back up your statement with some evidence.  So someone posted a link to an article that was described as 'well balanced and informative' or some such ... in said article apparently almost everyone connected to horses in racing loved the horses.  And that has been repeated on here in several posts.  Hmmm ... well I think that it is pretty clear from someone's comments that 'love' is reserved for pets ... not for racehorses.  And if everyone 'loved' the horses as much as the 'balanced and well informed' article claimed there would be much more money going into the rehab and retirement of horses when their racing careers ended than the paltry token gesture of £100,000 currently shared between four charities which seems a drop in the ocean when you think that the racing industry chews up and spits out 5000 horses per year.  Yes, you can call me ridiculous.  What would you call yourself for defending a sport which claims the life of one of its athletes every other day, and gives not a jot about them when they fail to give sufficient entertainment value to owners for day out at the races?
		
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I think *LOVE* might be the wrong word, I would prefer the words *respect and understand*. I have asked you last night and you have not answered my question, what would you like to happen? Would you like racing to be banned? Would you feel happy then? Or would you prefer to renew your subscription to Animal Aid and PETA?


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## Dobiegirl (13 April 2015)

Im on several racing fb sites and racehorses do come up for rehoming, very often their lad or lass takes them on and with others Mad Moose for example who refused to race on several occasions had a waiting list of people wanting to rehome him. A lot of owners take them home Mr Hemmings for example who owns Many Clouds has all his retired horses as home with him on the Isle Of Wight, not all of them were successful racehorses.

As for Many Clouds walking the streets of Newmarket, he was literally just walked up the road in Lambourn and back again, he was turned out later in his paddock.It seems to me those of you who are anti racing are clutching at the most innocuous statements to support your arguement.


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## teapot (13 April 2015)

tess1 said:



			that's brilliant that individuals are stepping up to the plate and being very generous.  The point is that it shouldn't be down to individuals ... there should be a retirement fund for every racehorse to ensure that they get the appropriate care when their careers have ended.  If people want to add into that, then it's wonderful ... but my point is that these horses live a hard life (some harder than others) and when they can't 'give' anymore their future is very uncertain.  Some I am sure do end up in excellent homes, or are fortunate enough to be taken in by charities ... but it's the luck of the draw isn't it ... and the luck runs out for a lot of them.
		
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Define 'hard' life? I've seen riding school horses living worse lives than racehorses and no one gives a flying monkeys about their future once hammered into the ground. I'd rather be a NH horse...

ETS Cavalry and King's Troop horses are either rehomed to private homes or if they cannot be rehomed for whatever reason, they go to one of the charities to see out their days. Most, from what a well-informed acquaintance told me will go to a private home. I'd imagine it's the same for police horses.


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## SpringArising (13 April 2015)

tess1 said:



			It's completely ridiculous to ask or expect that of anyone ... 

Really?

From an industry where they can give 25 million to vet research ...?
		
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Well for a start, I just can't think of a way it could be regulated. Where would the money go? How would this fund be transferred from owner to owner? What would the money be spent on? Who would keep track of where and who all this money was going to?




			what would you like to happen? Would you like racing to be banned? Would you feel happy then? Or would you prefer to renew your subscription to Animal Aid and PETA?
		
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I can't answer for Tess1, but no, I don't want racing to be banned. I just want less jumps in the GN and for the distance to be reduced. That's not too much to ask. Not really sure why you've assumed that anyone who doesn't like the National is a PETA member/supporter either. I strongly dislike the Grand National and at the same time know next to nothing about who PETA are or what exactly they do.


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## tess1 (13 April 2015)

justabob said:



			I think *LOVE* might be the wrong word, I would prefer the words *respect and understand*. I have asked you last night and you have not answered my question, what would you like to happen? Would you like racing to be banned? Would you feel happy then? Or would you prefer to renew your subscription to Animal Aid and PETA?
		
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Surprisingly I have no subs to either Animal Aid or PETA, or indeed any other 'animal rights' group.

As I explained last night, what I would like is for the people who make a living, or gain enjoyment from race horses, one way or another, to simply take responsibility for them when their racing days are over.  I acknowledge that accidents happen and horses get killed or so severely injured that they need to be destroyed on the race course, or afterwards.  That doesn't mean I like it, but I see it as a fact of life - nothing is going to change that.  What is not acceptable (to me - clearly it is to many others) is that after these horses have risked their lives time and again on a race course, worked hard, and lived a restricted lifestyle for much of their racing careers, they are then left facing uncertain futures - either with 'numpties' - to coin a phrase - or left to rot in some field, or sent to slaughter.   The racing industry is worth billions.  If the people genuinely cared about the horses the way it is touted time and time again anyone dares express concern about the welfare of racehorses, then foremost in everyone's minds would be the long-term well-being of the animals the whole industry is founded upon.  Until that happens, everything is lip service and rings very hollow.


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## tess1 (13 April 2015)

SpringArising said:



			Well for a start, I just can't think of a way it could be regulated. Where would the money go? How would this fund be transferred from owner to owner? What would the money be spent on? Who would keep track of where and who all this money was going to?
		
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well, if they can regulate the 25 million they dish out for vet research I am sure it can't be beyond the wit of man to come up with a way to ensure that bona fide charities apply for and get funding for taking, rehab-ing and re-homing, or retiring horses as appropriate.  Where there's a will, there's a way.  But don't worry SpringArising ... there's no will for this to happen, so we don't need to worry about the gritty details at this stage ...


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## teapot (13 April 2015)

tess1 said:



			Surprisingly I have no subs to either Animal Aid or PETA, or indeed any other 'animal rights' group.

As I explained last night, what I would like is for the people who make a living, or gain enjoyment from race horses, one way or another, to simply take responsibility for them when their racing days are over.  I acknowledge that accidents happen and horses get killed or so severely injured that they need to be destroyed on the race course, or afterwards.  That doesn't mean I like it, but I see it as a fact of life - nothing is going to change that.  What is not acceptable (to me - clearly it is to many others) is that after these horses have risked their lives time and again on a race course, worked hard, and lived a restricted lifestyle for much of their racing careers, they are then left facing uncertain futures - either with 'numpties' - to coin a phrase - or left to rot in some field, or sent to slaughter.   The racing industry is worth billions.  If the people genuinely cared about the horses the way it is touted time and time again anyone dares express concern about the welfare of racehorses, then foremost in everyone's minds would be the long-term well-being of the animals the whole industry is founded upon.  Until that happens, everything is lip service and rings very hollow.
		
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I see your point and understand the merit of it but not everyone in racing disposes of their horses for meat money the moment it can't race anymore. Take Judi Dench for example, yes the Judi Dench. Her racehorse wasn't a donkey, but not a massive winner either. He's now based at an RDA yard, being retrained in the hope that he'll become suitable for the more able RDA riders to use as a dressage ride. 

It's also something that if you take issue with in racing, you MUST take issue with in polo and riding schools. Polo's possibly even more monied than racing yet has far more of a 'disposal' attitude and riding schools, well, hammered around a poor quality school until they can't be used aka make money, and most likely for the older ones, just disposed of. Moreover, I'm sure there are horses in this country who are hammered three days a week out hunting and got rid of the moment they're not good enough. That is no different to me and where lies my issue with the 'anti racing' brigade. By all means knock the industry, be critical of it, but do not for one minute make it sound like racing is the devil incarnate and 'oh isn't is terrible' without looking at the wider equine industry, which in one way or another we all support and are involved in. 

I stood up for a riding school pony's welfare the other week, who in my eyes, was not fit for his job and was not getting the care he needed on that day. When I see a racehorse in the same condition going out to be raced, maybe I'll be a bit more critical.


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## AdorableAlice (13 April 2015)

The welfare of riding school horses is governed by the licensing authority any concerns should be brought to the licensing officers attention.


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## tess1 (13 April 2015)

teapot said:



			I see your point and understand the merit of it but not everyone in racing disposes of their horses for meat money the moment it can't race anymore. Take Judi Dench for example, yes the Judi Dench. Her racehorse wasn't a donkey, but not a massive winner either. He's now based at an RDA yard, being retrained in the hope that he'll become suitable for the more able RDA riders to use as a dressage ride. 

It's also something that if you take issue with in racing, you MUST take issue with in polo and riding schools. Polo's possibly even more monied than racing yet has far more of a 'disposal' attitude and riding schools, well, hammered around a poor quality school until they can't be used aka make money, and most likely for the older ones, just disposed of. Moreover, I'm sure there are horses in this country who are hammered three days a week out hunting and got rid of the moment they're not good enough. That is no different to me and where lies my issue with the 'anti racing' brigade. By all means knock the industry, be critical of it, but do not for one minute make it sound like racing is the devil incarnate and 'oh isn't is terrible' without looking at the wider equine industry, which in one way or another we all support and are involved in. 

I stood up for a riding school pony's welfare the other week, who in my eyes, was not fit for his job and was not getting the care he needed on that day. When I see a racehorse in the same condition going out to be raced, maybe I'll be a bit more critical.
		
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I TOTALLY take issue with all the things outlined above ... and many more besides ... dressage, showjumping, endurance, PMU barns, on and on ... yes, I absolutely agree with you.  However, this thread is about horse racing, and probably about ten pages back we had the whole discussion about why it isn't really valid to say yes, this is bad, but that's just as bad, and until you fix all those other bad things you have no right to discuss what is wrong here.


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## teapot (13 April 2015)

AdorableAlice said:



			The welfare of riding school horses is governed by the licensing authority any concerns should be brought to the licensing officers attention.
		
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Thankfully I believe he's since been retired and enjoying the spring sunshine. That said, I'm not sure how effective the council licensing is given they only turn up once a year and you know when they're coming too. Very easy to make things look 'correct' for the day they turn up.


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## teapot (13 April 2015)

tess1 said:



			I TOTALLY take issue with all the things outlined above ... and many more besides ... dressage, showjumping, endurance, PMU barns, on and on ... yes, I absolutely agree with you.  However, this thread is about horse racing, and probably about ten pages back we had the whole discussion about why it isn't really valid to say yes, this is bad, but that's just as bad, and until you fix all those other bad things you have no right to discuss what is wrong here.
		
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To be able to discuss the issues in racing, especially of welfare, you have to do a compare and contrast with other parts of the equine industry, otherwise you have nothing to back opinions up with. Like saying 'racehorses live a hard life' - compared to who else exactly? You cannot just pluck a statement like that out of thin air.


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## Moomin1 (13 April 2015)

teapot said:



			I see your point and understand the merit of it but not everyone in racing disposes of their horses for meat money the moment it can't race anymore. Take Judi Dench for example, yes the Judi Dench. Her racehorse wasn't a donkey, but not a massive winner either. He's now based at an RDA yard, being retrained in the hope that he'll become suitable for the more able RDA riders to use as a dressage ride. 

It's also something that if you take issue with in racing, you MUST take issue with in polo and riding schools. Polo's possibly even more monied than racing yet has far more of a 'disposal' attitude and riding schools, well, hammered around a poor quality school until they can't be used aka make money, and most likely for the older ones, just disposed of. Moreover, I'm sure there are horses in this country who are hammered three days a week out hunting and got rid of the moment they're not good enough. That is no different to me and where lies my issue with the 'anti racing' brigade. By all means knock the industry, be critical of it, but do not for one minute make it sound like racing is the devil incarnate and 'oh isn't is terrible' without looking at the wider equine industry, which in one way or another we all support and are involved in. 

I stood up for a riding school pony's welfare the other week, who in my eyes, was not fit for his job and was not getting the care he needed on that day. When I see a racehorse in the same condition going out to be raced, maybe I'll be a bit more critical.
		
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How do you know that the 'anti racing' brigade do not look at other industries and say the same?


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## tess1 (13 April 2015)

teapot said:



			To be able to discuss the issues in racing, especially of welfare, you have to do a compare and contrast with other parts of the equine industry, otherwise you have nothing to back opinions up with. Like saying 'racehorses live a hard life' - compared to who else exactly? You cannot just pluck a statement like that out of thin air.
		
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no, you don't have to do comparisons with the rest of the equine industry ... I'll let this article expand on that (second point) http://epona.tv/blog/2014/october/arguing-without-arguments 

By 'hard life' for race horses I mean the breeding practices, the abrupt weaning, the (disgustingly) early backing of flat horses, who are often on the scrap heap by the time they are two or three ... the restricted lifestyles that don't meet horses ethological (behavioural) needs, including lack of turnout and social contact with other horses, the high incidence of ulcers and stereotypies suggesting environmental and dietry short-falls, the risk of injury and death on race courses, the risk of ending up with unscruplous owners/trainers who are prepared to use drugs, or whose husbandry practices are not what they should be, the regular transportation, whip use, stressful training ... yes, some of them do find it stressful ... and that's before we've even started on what happens when they aren't wanted any more.  It's a myth to imagine that because the horse is gleaming, plaited, rugged and fed to within an inch of his life he is, in fact, 'fulfilled' in terms of his behavioural and physiological requirements.  He may look stunning, and be very fit, but ultimately he is a horse, and anyone who has studied feral equine behaviour will appreciate how far removed race horses are from what they instinctively need.  And yes, that is the same as with all other sports.


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## teapot (14 April 2015)

Moomin1 said:



			How do you know that the 'anti racing' brigade do not look at other industries and say the same?
		
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Well going by this thread alone, it seems to bit a bit blinkered in its attitude and approach. A number of us have mentioned the same thing happening to eventers that happened to Many Clouds, without even a nod of acknowledgement. Just the whole attitude to racing, both on here, and the public eye is how bad/cruel/devil like it is gets my goat when other industries have exactly the same issues, and DO NOT receive the money that racing does. 

I'm just not a fan of people plucking attitudes to support their narrow viewpoint, without considering the bigger picture. Yes, it's a racing based thread, but I'll say it again and say that you cannot talk about racing in isolation.



tess1 said:



			By 'hard life' for race horses I mean the breeding practices, the abrupt weaning, the (disgustingly) early backing of flat horses, who are often on the scrap heap by the time they are two or three ... the restricted lifestyles that don't meet horses ethological (behavioural) needs, including lack of turnout and social contact with other horses, the high incidence of ulcers and stereotypies suggesting environmental and dietry short-falls, the risk of injury and death on race courses, the risk of ending up with unscruplous owners/trainers who are prepared to use drugs, or whose husbandry practices are not what they should be, the regular transportation, whip use, stressful training ... yes, some of them do find it stressful ... and that's before we've even started on what happens when they aren't wanted any more.  It's a myth to imagine that because the horse is gleaming, plaited, rugged and fed to within an inch of his life he is, in fact, 'fulfilled' in terms of his behavioural and physiological requirements.  He may look stunning, and be very fit, but ultimately he is a horse, and anyone who has studied feral equine behaviour will appreciate how far removed race horses are from what they instinctively need.  And yes, that is the same as with all other sports.
		
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Now flat racing I do have issues with regarding age of backing and the damage it does, NH less so. 

Every issue you mention, aside from the flat racing backing age and increased risk of death, could be true of any equine sport. So some race horses don't live any harder a life than a dressage horse, eventer, polo pony or eventer; thus racing is not a one off and cannot be treated as such imho. The assumption about no turnout always makes me smile though, did anyone see that feature on, think it was Rebecca Curtis' yard where they were all out in a massive herd every day? They were being more 'horse' like than some dressage yards allow in the UK and in Europe. 

The background industry (yards, owners, facilities, turn out etc) is no different to any other equine industry. It is the sport/racing itself that makes it different and I can't work out whether people take issue with the background industry, or the actual sport?


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## tess1 (14 April 2015)

teapot said:



			Well going by this thread alone, it seems to bit a bit blinkered in its attitude and approach. A number of us have mentioned the same thing happening to eventers that happened to Many Clouds, without even a nod of acknowledgement. Just the whole attitude to racing, both on here, and the public eye is how bad/cruel/devil like it is gets my goat when other industries have exactly the same issues, and DO NOT receive the money that racing does. 

I'm just not a fan of people plucking attitudes to support their narrow viewpoint, without considering the bigger picture. Yes, it's a racing based thread, but I'll say it again and say that you cannot talk about racing in isolation.
		
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Yes, the same thing can happen to eventers. But no equine sport - any sport - has the fatalities that horse racing does.  That does make it stand out somewhat in terms of questionable welfare.


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## Dobiegirl (14 April 2015)

tess1 said:



			Yes, the same thing can happen to eventers. But no equine sport - any sport - has the fatalities that horse racing does.  That does make it stand out somewhat in terms of questionable welfare.
		
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There are race meetings everyday of the week, virtually 52 weeks a year, eventers do not have events anywhere near that, hence the difference in numbers so your argument doesn't stand up.


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## ycbm (14 April 2015)

Dobiegirl said:



			There are race meetings everyday of the week, virtually 52 weeks a year, eventers do not have events anywhere near that, hence the difference in numbers so your argument doesn't stand up.
		
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 Racing deaths for jump racing are one in 250 starters according to the last stats I saw published by the authorities. That would equate to at least one death for every weekend of eventing, more often two. If you check the schedule there will be several weekends of eventing each week between now and the end of October. But there will probably be no deaths, or at most one or two.


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## MurphysMinder (14 April 2015)

There was a team of , I believe, 11 vets at Aintree.  A vet was one of those throwing water at MC as he walked back, and she was also shown using the sweat scraper on him in the cooling area.   The veterinary attention these horses receive is absolutely second to none.  Compare that with a post I saw on fb this morning, someone asking for ideas to treat sarcoids "as they couldn't afford a vet",   that is where all this angst should be aimed,  at those who have horses but aren't prepared to care for them.


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## Smurf's Gran (14 April 2015)

firm said:



			Tess just to give you more facts as you do not seem to have researched this properly. At least two owners donated around £5m between them for retired racehorses.  When Dubai Millennium died his owner donated £1m odd towards  grass sickness research and he also raised the profile of this awful disease. As someone who lives in the epicentre of this disease and knows many people who have lost horses to it that info sticks with me. I am sure you can find more info if you research but it might not suit your agenda.
		
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Firm  I don't think it is enough though.  All credit to the owners that did donate (and One Million is loose change to Sheik Mohammed !)   but it needs consistent support from all owners rather than expecting charities (funded by ordinary people) to just pick up the slack / wastage from racing.

I do like racing and support the GN, but if all owners / trainers etc love their horses so much, maybe supporting appropriate charities would be a good way to show it.


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## LittleRooketRider (14 April 2015)

Just to add to what was said about MC's owner... the Queen also ensure a home for all of her horses successful or otherwise whenever their careeer on the track ends.

Edited to add: You seem to assume that owners don't take care of their horses on the basis that you don't knowwhat happens to horses after their racing days are over


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## Smurf's Gran (14 April 2015)

teapot said:



			Thankfully I believe he's since been retired and enjoying the spring sunshine. That said, I'm not sure how effective the council licensing is given they only turn up once a year and you know when they're coming too. Very easy to make things look 'correct' for the day they turn up.
		
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Agree  a "reputable"  riding school near us used to ship out certain horses to a field they had near by so they were not part of the inspection


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## Smurf's Gran (14 April 2015)

MurphysMinder said:



			There was a team of , I believe, 11 vets at Aintree.  A vet was one of those throwing water at MC as he walked back, and she was also shown using the sweat scraper on him in the cooling area.   The veterinary attention these horses receive is absolutely second to none.  Compare that with a post I saw on fb this morning, someone asking for ideas to treat sarcoids "as they couldn't afford a vet",   that is where all this angst should be aimed,  at those who have horses but aren't prepared to care for them.
		
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No the arguments are completely different. 

 There is not a sliding scale of awfulness, where one behaviour or treatment is tolerated because another is worse.  Just because some owners do not care for their "ordinary" horses properly, does not take anything away from the argument of those who either support or are against racing.


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## Maesfen (14 April 2015)

There were more than 11 MM (so I was told) many of them taken from our local practices; I know Hampton, Fyrnwy, Nantwich were all well represented plus experienced horse people at every fence and turn, anywhere a horse could (or shouldn't) go ready for any eventuality.  
The vet scraping him off comes to me sometimes, she's top class and a really hands on person, he wouldn't have been in better hands.


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## Smurf's Gran (14 April 2015)

MurphysMinder said:



			There was a team of , I believe, 11 vets at Aintree.  A vet was one of those throwing water at MC as he walked back, and she was also shown using the sweat scraper on him in the cooling area.   The veterinary attention these horses receive is absolutely second to none.  Compare that with a post I saw on fb this morning, someone asking for ideas to treat sarcoids "as they couldn't afford a vet",   that is where all this angst should be aimed,  at those who have horses but aren't prepared to care for them.
		
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double post


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## Smurf's Gran (14 April 2015)

LittleRooketRider said:



			Just to add to what was said about MC's owner... the Queen also ensure a home for all of her horses successful or otherwise whenever their careeer on the track ends.

Edited to add: You seem to assume that owners don't take care of their horses on the basis that you don't knowwhat happens to horses after their racing days are over
		
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Interesting point LRR, what to you think happens to the majority of racehorses once their racing days are over, they are injured, or unsuitable to race?


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## tess1 (14 April 2015)

Dobiegirl said:



			There are race meetings everyday of the week, virtually 52 weeks a year, eventers do not have events anywhere near that, hence the difference in numbers so your argument doesn't stand up.
		
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I am talking about the TOTAL number of equine fatalities caused directly as a result of participation in a race on tracks in the UK.  Not percentage/proportion of deaths by numbers of equines competing.  Not that I am defending eventing in any way, shape or form; if you have figures that suggest more horses die eventing then racing (even proportionally) then it would be good to share them.   However, even if that was found to be the case, it does not make racing any "better" - racing is what it is, irrespective of what may be occurring in other spheres of equestrian activity.

You are all discussing the vet care post-race as if it was some sort of minor miracle, and people went out of their way to help the horse.  Are you telling me that anything less than that could possibly have been expected?  Did you think Aintree was going to pull in few guys from the council to slosh buckets over the horse who had just won, and no one was going to remember to bring a sweat scraper?  I would expect post-race care to be absolutely top-notch ... anything else would be a joke.  And even then, with all that care, it made for extremely uncomfortable viewing.  The management of the horse in those critical minutes WAS lacking ... media demands for the interview prioritised over welfare - I hope the whole walk in process is reviewed for next year.


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## LittleRooketRider (14 April 2015)

Smurf's Gran said:



			Interesting point LRR, what to you think happens to the majority of racehorses once their racing days are over, they are injured, or unsuitable to race?
		
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I won't claim to know the fate of every horse, but to assume that it was something horrific because I don't is quite frankly ridiculous.

I am familiar with and know of many owners who have ensured their future, be it living out their days at grass, retrained for competition eg. eventing or dressage, or just a quiet life as a happy hacker, a family pet or pts (which tbh there are much worse). These are all not big names in racing some only had one ortwo, a couple bred racehorses and had a fair number, but not at the top-end of racing.


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## Smurf's Gran (14 April 2015)

LittleRooketRider said:



			I won't claim to know the fate of every horse, but to assume that it was something horrific because I don't is quite frankly ridiculous.

I am familiar with and know of many owners who have ensured their future, be it living out their days at grass, retrained for competition eg. eventing or dressage, or just a quiet life as a happy hacker, a family pet or pts (which tbh there are much worse). These are all not big names in racing some only had one ortwo, a couple bred racehorses and had a fair number, but not at the top-end of racing.
		
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Thanks for your views.  Its good to know that some are doing okay, and this is what I would expect.   Though it would be good to have some idea of what happens to the majority though.  I suppose a relevant charity might be more appropriate to consult for this info, as all anyone will have on here is personal anecdotes  ( unless of course they work for a charity).


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## ester (14 April 2015)

I do think that the industry should do more for its exracers, not the ones of big owners with the facilities to retire them, or the really successful ones - the rest who face such an uncertain future often at a very young age. It's great that there are good owners/trainers who care about what happens to them after but there are so many that don't.


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## ester (14 April 2015)

ycbm said:



			Racing deaths for jump racing are one in 250 starters according to the last stats I saw published by the authorities. That would equate to at least one death for every weekend of eventing, more often two. If you check the schedule there will be several weekends of eventing each week between now and the end of October. But there will probably be no deaths, or at most one or two.
		
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See I would agree with this, assuming we are counting all levels of each I don't see how 1/250 die throughout the eventing season.


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## tess1 (14 April 2015)

LittleRooketRider said:



			I won't claim to know the fate of every horse, but to assume that it was something horrific because I don't is quite frankly ridiculous.

I am familiar with and know of many owners who have ensured their future, be it living out their days at grass, retrained for competition eg. eventing or dressage, or just a quiet life as a happy hacker, a family pet or pts (which tbh there are much worse). These are all not big names in racing some only had one ortwo, a couple bred racehorses and had a fair number, but not at the top-end of racing.
		
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I won't claim to know the fate of every horse, but to assume that it was something wonderful because I don't know is quite frankly ridiculous.

Yes, I know of a few who kept their horses as well ... and plenty who didn't.  Keeping and caring for the horses into a long and happy retirement is the exception rather than the norm.  It is virtually unheard of in flat racing, where horses are on the scrap heap at such a young age.  

I think the existence of several charities dedicated to rescuing ex-race horses ... not to mention the ones that end up in non-specialised charities ... gives a bit of a clue as to what might be going on.  

Old, and somewhat sensationalist, but I think one can get the bare bones of the argument ... The British Horseracing Authority (BHA) says it conducted an audit of thoroughbreds last year - horses can be 'tracked' thanks to micro-chipping and the introduction of 'horse passports' - and it found that about 1,200 had been killed in abattoirs. A further unspecified number were killed in Irish slaughterhouses.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-food-French-dinner-plates.html#ixzz3XH7E8Kms
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

The slaughtering of healthy horses is not viewed as a welfare issue.  Clearly it's not viewed as an ethical one either ... a beautiful illustration of how the racing industry treats horses as a disposable commodity, allowing people to get rid of their no longer wanted horses with a clear conscience.


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## siennamum (14 April 2015)

I am enjoying the reasoned debate on here but wish people would stop assuming that if you criticise racing in any way you must be a rabid Peta supporter.

I enjoy watching the racing but think that there are many ways it could be improved from a welfare perspective. (as I do with many equestrian and canine sports/pastimes)

I can't find the poster who seems to be claiming that eventing is as bad or worse. If a horse was repeatedly near collapse at the finish of XC there would be an outcry. Frankly no ride would want to sit on it for fear of it collapsing on the course. Riders slapping a horse to sharpen it up prior to a fence is one thing (and I know there is whip abuse in eventing) it is not permissible though to repeatedly hit the horse between the last fence and the finish line - it may not be a race but time is of the essence. The only reason horses are hit on the run up at the GN is to make them go faster, even if they are exhausted. I for one don't like it.


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## MotherOfChickens (14 April 2015)

siennamum said:



			I am enjoying the reasoned debate on here but wish people would stop assuming that if you criticise racing in any way you must be a rabid Peta supporter.
		
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Quite. Some of us even worked in racing for a few years and are so not completely ignorant- another criticism aimed at people who don't agree with it all.


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## LittleRooketRider (14 April 2015)

tess1 said:



			I won't claim to know the fate of every horse, but to assume that it was something wonderful because I don't know is quite frankly ridiculous.
		
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Thats not what I meant, but it does swing both ways.

TBH although I woud love all healthy horses to live out their life and I personally couldn't/wouldn't send a horse to abattoir I don't thibk this is a problem as generally (despite the sensationalism of press over a few disreputabe abattoirs) the animals are dealt with humanely.

I am not denying there are issues in either the racing industry or abattoirs, but I will not agree that it is inherently cruel.


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## tess1 (14 April 2015)

LittleRooketRider said:



			Thats not what I meant, but it does swing both ways.

TBH although I woud love all healthy horses to live out their life and I personally couldn't/wouldn't send a horse to abattoir I don't thibk this is a problem as generally (despite the sensationalism of press over a few disreputabe abattoirs) the animals are dealt with humanely.

I am not denying there are issues in either the racing industry or abattoirs, but I will not agree that it is inherently cruel.
		
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Whereas I feel that sending perfectly fit, healthy animals to a slaughterhouse is problematic, no matter how 'humanely' they are dealt with - and in the main I would like to believe it is done with as little stress as possible - because ultimately this decision costs the animal thier life ... for no reason other than they do not provide sufficient entertainment value for a day at the races, or they are simply surplus to requirements.  Someone made the decision to breed that horse, other people made the decision to buy it, house it, train and compete with it.  That horse has provided entertainment for some, and a livelihood for others.  And then all those people can turn their backs, and walk away with a clear conscience.  To me that is the cruelty inherent in horse racing (andto a greater or lesser extent other equestrian sports).  There are of course other welfare issues within horse racing, as have been previously mentioned in this thread.


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## Alec Swan (14 April 2015)

tess1 said:



			Whereas I feel that sending perfectly fit, healthy animals to a slaughterhouse is problematic, no matter how 'humanely' they are dealt with - and in the main I would like to believe it is done with as little stress as possible - because ultimately this decision costs the animal thier life ... for no reason other than they do not provide sufficient entertainment value for a day at the races, or they are simply surplus to requirements.  &#8230;&#8230;.. .
		
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So how would that differ from the sheep and the cattle which I breed?  Do you feel that somehow horses are any different from any other breed of animal which man produces?

Alec.


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## Maesfen (14 April 2015)

tess1 said:



			or they are simply surplus to requirements.  Someone made the decision to breed that horse, other people made the decision to buy it, house it, train and compete with it.  That horse has provided entertainment for some, and a livelihood for others.  And then all those people can turn their backs, and walk away with a clear conscience.
		
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Far better a quick humane end then than seeing the horse go downhill and from pillar to post as it gets shipped around trying to find the perfect home which in all likelihood does not exist except in pink fluffy cloud land which is somewhere over the rainbow.  We've all seen adverts from yards springing up dealing with cheap TBs out of racing and not always good yards either but the local horsey girl trying to make a quick buck; fine if they are experienced with horses newly out of racing but can be a disaster for the horse if they're not experienced enough to cope. 
If something (and I include animals in this) is surplus to requirements then you move it on; if this is an animal then it behoves you to do the best for that animal; if you think the best thing for that animal is putting down then put it down humanely but don't wash your hands of it so it goes to umpteen low end sales or is neglected as that is not what a racing fit animal is used to, it would find it very hard to cope and deteriorate rapidly.  At all times, the horse should come first and you should not have to  answer to the anti slaughter brigade just because you want to do the decent thing for it.


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## Smurf's Gran (14 April 2015)

Alec Swan said:



			So how would that differ from the sheep and the cattle which I breed?  Do you feel that somehow horses are any different from any other breed of animal which man produces?

Alec.
		
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The majority of people clearly do otherwise we would not have had the public outcry regarding horse meat entering the food chain.


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## tess1 (14 April 2015)

Alec Swan said:



			So how would that differ from the sheep and the cattle which I breed?  Do you feel that somehow horses are any different from any other breed of animal which man produces?

Alec.
		
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Do you feel that thoroughbreds are bred to be slaughtered?  

If people in this country felt that horses were the same as cattle or sheep we would all be tucking into horse burgers on the bbq this weekend. Balthazar King would be renamed Burger King and there would be jokes about spare ribs.


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## Smurf's Gran (14 April 2015)

tess1 said:



			Do you feel that thoroughbreds are bred to be slaughtered?  

If people in this country felt that horses were the same as cattle or sheep we would all be tucking into horse burgers on the bbq this weekend. Balthazar King would be renamed Burger King and there would be jokes about spare ribs.
		
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Too true !!


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## 3Beasties (14 April 2015)

tess1 said:



			If people in this country felt that horses were the same as cattle or sheep we would all be tucking into horse burgers on the bbq this weekend. Balthazar King would be renamed Burger King and there would be jokes about spare ribs.
		
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Sorry, I shouldn't laugh but that made me chuckle!


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## tess1 (14 April 2015)

Maesfen said:



			Far better a quick humane end then than seeing the horse go downhill and from pillar to post as it gets shipped around trying to find the perfect home which in all likelihood does not exist except in pink fluffy cloud land which is somewhere over the rainbow.  We've all seen adverts from yards springing up dealing with cheap TBs out of racing and not always good yards either but the local horsey girl trying to make a quick buck; fine if they are experienced with horses newly out of racing but can be a disaster for the horse if they're not experienced enough to cope. 
If something (and I include animals in this) is surplus to requirements then you move it on; if this is an animal then it behoves you to do the best for that animal; if you think the best thing for that animal is putting down then put it down humanely but don't wash your hands of it so it goes to umpteen low end sales or is neglected as that is not what a racing fit animal is used to, it would find it very hard to cope and deteriorate rapidly.  At all times, the horse should come first and you should not have to  answer to the anti slaughter brigade just because you want to do the decent thing for it.
		
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Far better a quick humane end then than seeing the horse go downhill and from pillar to post as it gets shipped around trying to find the perfect home ....

Far better to breed less, breed higher quality, and put in place a way to collect revenue from everyone connected to the racing industry in some way from breeders to owners to punters to ensure that these horses have a safe and happy retirement.  Not to mention the extra jobs it would create for staff to care for these retirees - imagine the PR for racing, imagine the revenue from people coming to visit their old favourites on open days, imagine British Racing leading the equestrian world in terms of welfare of its athletes ...

or let's just keep on thinking of ways to justify killing them.


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## Maesfen (14 April 2015)

All horses will die at some point.  It is what happens to them between birth and death that is important and that death is humane.  
It is far more humane to put a horse down that is surplus to requirements and not suitable for rehoming than to allow it to suffer from the hands of the many numpties that want to rescue them so that they get passed from pillar to post in a downward spiral.  Yes, some do make very good riding animals but there are others that would be a total nightmare to handle or ride by non professionals and it would be ridiculous to even try because someone or them could get badly hurt.


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## ester (14 April 2015)

I have no issue with TBs going to slaughter. 

The issue I have is how many that did end up there did so by way of bin end markets and less than perfect owners along the way.


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## tess1 (14 April 2015)

Maesfen said:



			All horses will die at some point.  It is what happens to them between birth and death that is important and that death is humane.  
It is far more humane to put a horse down that is surplus to requirements and not suitable for rehoming than to allow it to suffer from the hands of the many numpties that want to rescue them so that they get passed from pillar to post in a downward spiral.  Yes, some do make very good riding animals but there are others that would be a total nightmare to handle or ride by non professionals and it would be ridiculous to even try because someone or them could get badly hurt.
		
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Well, yes, that is why I mentioned the retirees looking after by trained staff, and re-homing through specialised charities funded through the racing industry, where experienced people can make the appropirate decisions regarding each horse as an individual.


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## Maesfen (14 April 2015)

Exactly Ester.


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## tess1 (14 April 2015)

ester said:



			I have no issue with TBs going to slaughter. 

The issue I have is how many that did end up there did so by way of bin end markets and less than perfect owners along the way.
		
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So maybe the racing industry should look seriously at tightening up accountability of owners - ie, those that owned the horse at the time their racing career ended.


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## ester (14 April 2015)

I think it is difficult because if all the owners sent their horses straight to slaughter there would likely be out cry about not giving them a chance when they can be pretty good at other sports too, though equally there are only so many owners that will suit or want an OTTB but how do you create a capture net for the ones that fall through? I'd worry that some sort of funding that followed them after racing would just be crying out to be taken advantage of by those less scrupulous.


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## minesadouble (14 April 2015)

tess1 said:



			So maybe the racing industry should look seriously at tightening up accountability of owners - ie, those that owned the horse at the time their racing career ended.
		
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The thing is we don't hold owners of any other horse accountable for where their horses end up. I know many (non-tb) breeders who will have a horse put down once it is no longer capable of breeding. There are people who come onto this forum to say  'I can no longer compete my horse and can't afford another unless he is gone' to receive plenty of responses along the lines of 'shoot the old one and get a new one if you want to compete.' To be honest that shocks me way more than the owner of a recehorse doing similar as they are way more detached from their horse emotionally than a one horse owner giving day to day care to their horse.

We dont ensure that hobby riders don't sell or dispose of their horse in an inappropriate manner so why should we do so to anybody else. It's a matter of personal conscience.
We have 2 lovely ex racehorses at home who will both be with us until their dying day but some just are not suitable for rehoming.


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## criso (14 April 2015)

tess1 said:



			Far better to breed less, breed higher quality
		
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While that comment is definitely true for some areas of horse breeding I don't think it applies to racing, in many cases they are trying to breed the best quality but there is no guarantee that fantastic bloodlines guarantee speed and talent.  There are many cases of full brothers and sister to champions who are useless.   One of mine is by a NH stallion who's progeny are fetching incredible prices in the sales rings but he's was still too slow to even enter in  a race.  

As there are no guarantees even if you put the best to the best there will always be many that don't make the grade.

ETA not saying it's right or wrong just commenting on how the nature of trying to breed a winner is not a science and lends itself to surplus horses.


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## Elf On A Shelf (14 April 2015)

Bottoms up! 







Sorry random interlude!

As to only breeding the best the old saying goes that by crossing the best with the best you are only increasing your chance of getting a good horse not guaranteeing it.


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## tess1 (14 April 2015)

ester said:



			I think it is difficult because if all the owners sent their horses straight to slaughter there would likely be out cry about not giving them a chance when they can be pretty good at other sports too, though equally there are only so many owners that will suit or want an OTTB but how do you create a capture net for the ones that fall through? I'd worry that some sort of funding that followed them after racing would just be crying out to be taken advantage of by those less scrupulous.
		
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I'm sure there is a risk that the less than scrupulous would try to cash in ... it happens in pretty much everything else in this world.  However, a system whereby horses are sent to specialist centres, assessed and rehomed to suitable experienced folk, or retired and cared for by trained and knowledable staff can surely not be beyond the wit of man if there was a will?  Obviously if owners wanted to keep the horse themselves, or retrain them for another activity then that is their choice.  I am sure that some would slip through the let ... but possibly far less than what happens now.  Horses are microchipped.  They can be traced.  Charities that re-home can do spot checks - I have re-homed a number of horses from charities and been subjct to spot checks with one or two day's notice ... it's common-place. Farmers have to account for every movement of every animal they produce for the food chain ... thats hundreds of thousands of animals, not just four or five thousand a year.  There isn't really a logistical obstacle that couldn't be overcome ... what is lacking is the imagination and the will to admit there is a fundmamental flaw in the racing industry and do something about it.  Instead people will put all their energies into defending the status quo, believing that anyone who criticises racing and proposes change must want to see the demise of the sport, not genuine improvements for the horses.


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## firm (14 April 2015)

I don't think the racing industry can be overly criticised in the breeding side of things. I read the TB foal production had dropped from approx. 15000 to 8000 in response to the current climate. Compare that to coloured cobs and ponies where the are public advised to eat more horse meat to support these breeders?  They are breeding pony foals that not even the meat man wants and then all the appeals to "rescue" them.

Edit to add rescue are not full of racehorse they all full of coloured cobs and ponies. Take a look at Hillside for example,

I owned two ex racehorses. Lovely animals put to sleep here at home in their 20's


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## criso (14 April 2015)

I made a decision not to rehome from a charity as there were to many conditions.  One wanted to assess everyone who might ride the horse and I want the right to have a sharer or ask someone to exercise as I see fit.  Also I keep my horses barefoot and some would insist on shoeing. Others insist on a stable and while I do currently stable for part of the day I have had mine out 24/7 and he thrived on it and would go back to that if I could find a suitable place.

I completely understand why they do that but having had a bad experience with loaning a horse (not a tb) I prefer to buy a horse and have complete responsibility for it.


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## firm (14 April 2015)

Here is an interesting stat seeing as we are discussing jump racing  " 2013, just 647 jump-bred foals were born in Britain"


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## tess1 (14 April 2015)

minesadouble said:



			The thing is we don't hold owners of any other horse accountable for where their horses end up. I know many (non-tb) breeders who will have a horse put down once it is no longer capable of breeding. There are people who come onto this forum to say  'I can no longer compete my horse and can't afford another unless he is gone' to receive plenty of responses along the lines of 'shoot the old one and get a new one if you want to compete.' To be honest that shocks me way more than the owner of a recehorse doing similar as they are way more detached from their horse emotionally than a one horse owner giving day to day care to their horse.

We dont ensure that hobby riders don't sell or dispose of their horse in an inappropriate manner so why should we do so to anybody else. It's a matter of personal conscience.
We have 2 lovely ex racehorses at home who will both be with us until their dying day but some just are not suitable for rehoming.
		
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Yes, I agree entirely with all of your comments, but racing is a multi-million pound industry which provides a livelihood for thousands, and entertainment for hundreds of thousands of people - even more for the famous races.  If Joe Bloggs falls of his ladder clearing out his roof gutter, there's not much can be done ... in a workplace there are procedures in place to protect employees, or be held accountable if someone is deemed to have taken unnecessary risks with someone else's safety and well being.  The racing industry is an industry ... not an individual ... therefore they should (to my mind) be held accountable for the well-being of their "employees" - ie, the horses (a bit anthropomorphic, but hopefully you get the drift).  The bottom line is, responsibility for these animals has to stop somewhere.  Everyone on here keeps passing the buck like a hot cake - it's the fault of the owners who don't send their horses safely to slaughter, or the numpties who try to help by re-homing a TB, the rabid anti-slaughter brigade, the press whipping up concern to sell newspapers, the animal right extremists, the idiots who try to make the National course easier, the damn randomness of genetics that won't allow you to just breed the perfect horse without making mistakes, and so what if those mistakes are living, feeling creatures that now no one wants...  or trying to detract from the argument by saying that something else is worse - yes, it may be "worse", but that does not make racing "better".


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## tess1 (14 April 2015)

firm said:



			I don't think the racing industry can be overly criticised in the breeding side of things. I read the TB foal production had dropped from approx. 15000 to 8000 in response to the current climate. Compare that to coloured cobs and ponies where the are public advised to eat more horse meat to support these breeders?  They are breeding pony foals that not even the meat man wants and then all the appeals to "rescue" them.

Edit to add rescue are not full of racehorse they all full of coloured cobs and ponies. Take a look at Hillside for example,

I owned two ex racehorses. Lovely animals put to sleep here at home in their 20's
		
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Hillside is not an ex-racehorse re-homing centre.  Hillside is another story :-(

The race-horse rehoming centres are usually full to bursting and have waiting lists.

Yes, breeding numbers dropped during/after the recession, when the numbers of unwanted TBs reached crisis point and beyond.  No doubt now that the economy is 'recovering' numbers will increase again to meet the demand.  Then the charities will be left with even more to deal with when those horses are unwanted a few years down the line.


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## Alec Swan (14 April 2015)

Smurf's Gran said:



			The majority of people clearly do otherwise we would not have had the public outcry regarding horse meat entering the food chain.
		
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The 'outcry' as you put it,  and one which was media enhanced,  was over the deception and the highly questionable standards of meat hygiene,  rather than the fact that we may be eating a horse.  If we choose to eat 'horse' then it's no different to any other meat,  taste dependent,  that is!

Alec.


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## ester (14 April 2015)

So industry plough more money/take a subsidy from all entries to be put in the pot to go to approved rehoming charities- of which we might need more then! Horses remain in ownership of the charity who will PTS if they cannot rehome them/they come back to them not able to be rehomed. I struggle with charities being full of bottom end horses (coloured cobs, some dartmoor hills etc) who are never going to be great or are terminally broken at a young age etc.


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## applecart14 (14 April 2015)

minesadouble said:



			There are people who come onto this forum to say  'I can no longer compete my horse and can't afford another unless he is gone' to receive plenty of responses along the lines of 'shoot the old one and get a new one if you want to compete.' To be honest that shocks me way more than the owner of a recehorse doing similar as they are way more detached from their horse emotionally than a one horse owner giving day to day care to their horse.
.
		
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Couldn't agree more with this sentiment. I would never get rid of my boy if I couldn't compete/ride, he has a home for life with me, he has given me his all and one day it will be my turn to repay the favour.  Like so many in my position I wouldn't be able to afford two, but I wouldn't wish him a quick death just because I couldn't ride.

 I have never been a racehorse trainer or owner, nor would like to ever go down this avenue but I imagine that trying to find homes for ex racehorses is a total nightmare, due mainly to their breed.  Personally I would be worried about buying one because I could see that I could overhorse myself without realising, and I would also worry about what kind of start the horse had, i.e. had it been broken/raced very young, will it go on to develop all sorts of physical problems or behavioural ones.  I know of one very high profile trainer whose amauter jockey has just given his 'wouldn't jump fences' racehorse away for next to nothing to a young girl. I have ridden the horse myself a couple of times and know he is a lovely horse, very kind natured and I was worrying about where he would end up.  I can see that it is going to take a huge amount of work to transform to a 'riding club animal' suitable for the girl in question and even then this might not happen as he is very long in the back so dressage classes and jumping tracks could be problematic for him.  I don't know her personally and I wish her well, but I can only imagine that unless she is very experienced with TB's, she will run into a few problems along the way and the horse may end up on the slippery slope of the rehoming/pillar to post scenario which we all know so well.  I sincerley hope not.


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## Alec Swan (14 April 2015)

Alec Swan said:



			So how would that differ from the sheep and the cattle which I breed?  Do you feel that somehow horses are any different from any other breed of animal which man produces?

Alec.
		
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tess1 said:



			Do you feel that thoroughbreds are bred to be slaughtered?  

If people in this country felt that horses were the same as cattle or sheep we would all be tucking into horse burgers on the bbq this weekend. Balthazar King would be renamed Burger King and there would be jokes about spare ribs.
		
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Of course they're bred to be slaughtered,  eventually.  With respect,  I'd suggest that rather than lecturing an industry as to their levels of ethics and morality,  that you join others and campaign,  lobbying our self promoting equine charities,  that they affect a change in Government policies and re-open our equine abattoirs,  which when licensed and properly administered to will provide owners with a logical and a kindly and a humane end for our horses.

Considering our possibly well intentioned 'Equine Charities',  have you considered that without a nurtured need for a 'rescue' (sic) system,  they'd be out of business?  Be assured of one point;  Equine Charities are 'Businesses' all of them! 

Alec.


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## ester (14 April 2015)

I think we are down to only potters now but they were on one day a week I think?

there are those that slaughter for zoo animals etc though separately?


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## Optimissteeq (14 April 2015)

tess1 said:



			So maybe the racing industry should look seriously at tightening up accountability of owners - ie, those that owned the horse at the time their racing career ended.
		
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This would possibly work with successful racehorses. A lot of racehorses are not that successful, by comparison, and those that are successful, are by and large, owned by people that could afford to spend large sums on their purchase. There are a lot of owners and syndicates that have horses to race, they may love the horse, or they may love racing but there may be a time when it's costing too much to train a horse that isn't giving the return for the spend. Do they spend more money on a horse that hasn't given them anything in return? (in their eyes). Possibly not.
If you were to increase costs of keeping the horse by funding it's retirement, this becomes a less attractive option for some small owners/syndicates that then give up.
For the record, I am pro racing and I agree with some of your sentiments, but some of your arguments come across as more emotional than rational to me.
The racehorse does have a job to do, and it costs a significant amount to keep it in training as EKW outlined. The problem often comes when the horse isn't up to the job (but that's stating the obvious). You seem to want owners to fund the retirement of the horse for the rest of it's natural life, but I don't think that's feasible.
Perhaps the solution would be to make racing 'elitist' where only the very rich would be allowed to own horses, they then could fund the retirement (said tongue in cheek!)
I'd also like to add that I am an owner and I have also bred my own racehorse. He was rubbish and is now re-training as an eventer. I have had 4 other racehorses. Two are field ornaments, one was PTS through injury and the other was re-homed to a friend.


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## Optimissteeq (14 April 2015)

tess1 said:



			So maybe the racing industry should look seriously at tightening up accountability of owners - ie, those that owned the horse at the time their racing career ended.
		
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This would possibly work with successful racehorses. A lot of racehorses are not that successful, by comparison, and those that are successful, are by and large, owned by people that could afford to spend large sums on their purchase. There are a lot of owners and syndicates that have horses to race, they may love the horse, or they may love racing but there may be a time when it's costing too much to train a horse that isn't giving the return for the spend. Do they spend more money on a horse that hasn't given them anything in return? (in their eyes). Possibly not.
If you were to increase costs of keeping the horse by funding it's retirement, this becomes a less attractive option for some small owners/syndicates that then give up.
For the record, I am pro racing and I agree with some of your sentiments, but some of your arguments come across as more emotional than rational to me.
The racehorse does have a job to do, and it costs a significant amount to keep it in training as EKW outlined. The problem often comes when the horse isn't up to the job (but that's staing the obvious). You seem to want owners to fund the retirement of the horse for the rest of it's natural life, but I don't think that's feasible.
Perhaps the solution would be to make racing 'elitist' where only the very rich would be allowed to own horses, they then could fund the retirment (said tongue in cheek!)
I'd laso like to add that I am an owner and I have also bred my own racehorse. He was rubbish and is now re-training as an eventer. My have had 4 other racehorses. Two are field ornaments, one was PTS through injury and the other was re-homed to a friend.


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## tess1 (14 April 2015)

Alec Swan said:



			Of course they're bred to be slaughtered,  eventually.  With respect,  I'd suggest that rather than lecturing an industry as to their levels of ethics and morality,  that you join others and campaign,  lobbying our self promoting equine charities,  that they affect a change in Government policies and re-open our equine abattoirs,  which when licensed and properly administered to will provide owners with a logical and a kindly and a humane end for our horses.

Considering our possibly well intentioned 'Equine Charities',  have you considered that without a nurtured need for a 'rescue' (sic) system,  they'd be out of business?  Be assured of one point;  Equine Charities are 'Businesses' all of them! 

Alec.
		
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Ok, that get's the prize for the most original perspective of the day ... now it's the fault of the re-homing charities for existing. Damn those annoying horses for needing somewhere to go when no one else will take care of them.


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## BigBuck's (14 April 2015)

tess1 said:



			Yes, I agree entirely with all of your comments, but racing is a multi-million pound industry which provides a livelihood for thousands, and entertainment for hundreds of thousands of people - even more for the famous races.  If Joe Bloggs falls of his ladder clearing out his roof gutter, there's not much can be done ... in a workplace there are procedures in place to protect employees, or be held accountable if someone is deemed to have taken unnecessary risks with someone else's safety and well being.  The racing industry is an industry ... not an individual ... therefore they should (to my mind) be held accountable for the well-being of their "employees" - ie, the horses (a bit anthropomorphic, but hopefully you get the drift).  The bottom line is, responsibility for these animals has to stop somewhere.  Everyone on here keeps passing the buck like a hot cake - it's the fault of the owners who don't send their horses safely to slaughter, or the numpties who try to help by re-homing a TB, the rabid anti-slaughter brigade, the press whipping up concern to sell newspapers, the animal right extremists, the idiots who try to make the National course easier, the damn randomness of genetics that won't allow you to just breed the perfect horse without making mistakes, and so what if those mistakes are living, feeling creatures that now no one wants...  or trying to detract from the argument by saying that something else is worse - yes, it may be "worse", but that does not make racing "better".
		
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I think it's worth noting that things are going the right way, but like most cultural changes it's a work in progress.  More and more trainers see the value in rehoming their horses responsibly - from Darley at the top with their own scheme to smaller trainers (have a look at Jim Boyle's rehoming page on Facebook as an example).  RoR was only set up by the BHA (BHB as was) fifteen years ago and over time has expanded to bring some of the other independent charities under its umbrella eg TRC, to ensure a more joined-up approach and consistent standards of care and retraining.  The move to make an automatic deduction from entry fees was comparatively recent and yes it's a small amount (the entry fee for the average race isn't exactly megabucks) but it is a step in the right direction.  The National Federation of Trainers and Weatherbys both support RoR financially too.  The understanding is growing slowly and there is still much work to be done, but wouldn't it be nice to give credit for the progress being made than fume that it hasn't reached perfection yet?


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## Optimissteeq (14 April 2015)

BigBuck's said:



			I think it's worth noting that things are going the right way, but like most cultural changes it's a work in progress.  More and more trainers see the value in rehoming their horses responsibly - from Darley at the top with their own scheme to smaller trainers (have a look at Jim Boyle's rehoming page on Facebook as an example).  RoR was only set up by the BHA (BHB as was) fifteen years ago and over time has expanded to bring some of the other independent charities under its umbrella eg TRC, to ensure a more joined-up approach and consistent standards of care and retraining.  The move to make an automatic deduction from entry fees was comparatively recent and yes it's a small amount (the entry fee for the average race isn't exactly megabucks) but it is a step in the right direction.  The National Federation of Trainers and Weatherbys both support RoR financially too.  The understanding is growing slowly and there is still much work to be done, but wouldn't it be nice to give credit for the progress being made than fume that it hasn't reached perfection yet?
		
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Agree with this - positive reinforcement/encouragement can often produce better results than negativity/arguing. More promotion of the good work racing is doing to re-home racehorses would surely result in perpetuation and more people would want to join in maybe?


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## Smurf's Gran (14 April 2015)

Alec Swan said:



			The 'outcry' as you put it,  and one which was media enhanced,  was over the deception and the highly questionable standards of meat hygiene,  rather than the fact that we may be eating a horse.  If we choose to eat 'horse' then it's no different to any other meat,  taste dependent,  that is!

Alec.
		
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That is your opinion as to why there was an outcry, and not fact


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## Alec Swan (14 April 2015)

tess1 said:



			Ok, that get's the prize for the most original perspective of the day ... now it's the fault of the re-homing charities for existing. Damn those annoying horses for needing somewhere to go when no one else will take care of them.
		
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Two points for you,  firstly the re-homing charities are at certainly at fault,  as are the established equine charities,  and secondly,  it isn't the fault horses,  but those who would,  generally from an unrealistic standpoint,  refuse to accept that a horse is no different an animal to a sheep,  as both deserve and are entitled to a humane end rather than being viewed as an income stream when they've reached the end of their useful lives,  and being kept in often disgraceful conditions to be used as no more than implements to tug at the heartstrings of the well intentioned and generally ill informed.  

The 'ill informed' and I'd suggest that you may well be amongst them, and however well intentioned are responsible for this frightful mess.

Alec.


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## Smurf's Gran (14 April 2015)

tess1 said:



			Ok, that get's the prize for the most original perspective of the day ... now it's the fault of the re-homing charities for existing. Damn those annoying horses for needing somewhere to go when no one else will take care of them.
		
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*like*


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## Smurf's Gran (14 April 2015)

BigBuck's said:



			I think it's worth noting that things are going the right way, but like most cultural changes it's a work in progress.  More and more trainers see the value in rehoming their horses responsibly - from Darley at the top with their own scheme to smaller trainers (have a look at Jim Boyle's rehoming page on Facebook as an example).  RoR was only set up by the BHA (BHB as was) fifteen years ago and over time has expanded to bring some of the other independent charities under its umbrella eg TRC, to ensure a more joined-up approach and consistent standards of care and retraining.  The move to make an automatic deduction from entry fees was comparatively recent and yes it's a small amount (the entry fee for the average race isn't exactly megabucks) but it is a step in the right direction.  The National Federation of Trainers and Weatherbys both support RoR financially too.  The understanding is growing slowly and there is still much work to be done, but wouldn't it be nice to give credit for the progress being made than fume that it hasn't reached perfection yet?
		
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Thanks for the info BB.  It is good to know


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## Smurf's Gran (14 April 2015)

Alec Swan said:



			Two points for you,  firstly the re-homing charities are at certainly at fault,  as are the established equine charities,  and secondly,  it isn't the fault horses,  but those who would,  generally from an unrealistic standpoint,  refuse to accept that a horse is no different an animal to a sheep,  as both deserve and are entitled to a humane end rather than being viewed as an income stream when they've reached the end of their useful lives,  and being kept in often disgraceful conditions to be used as no more than implements to tug at the heartstrings of the well intentioned and generally ill informed.  

The 'ill informed' and I'd suggest that you may well be amongst them, and however well intentioned are responsible for this frightful mess.
		
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This is a typical response from you Alec.  

You oversimplify the issue - horses have a different role in our lives than a farm animal who is bred for slaughter.  We have a relationship  with horses that is far different from animals that are traditionally bred for meat.   You also assume that anyone who does not agree with you is ill informed, and although well intentioned is something of an idiot.

I think I probably need to get familiar with "user ignore"


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## Alec Swan (14 April 2015)

Smurf's Gran said:



			This is a typical response from you Alec.  

You oversimplify the issue - horses have a different role in our lives than a farm animal who is bred for slaughter.  

We have a relationship  with horses that is far different from animals that are traditionally bred for meat.   

You also assume that anyone who does not agree with you is ill informed, and although well intentioned is something of an idiot.

I think I probably need to get familiar with "user ignore"
		
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Line 1:  It seems that you aren't disappointed!

Line 2:  Those who 'over-simplify' simply attempt to undo the nonsense of those who would equally 'over-complicate'.

Line 3:  'We'?  You may,  but others don't,  and they're as entitled to their views as you are.

Line 4:  At no point have I accused anyone of idiocy.  A lack of understanding,  certainly.

Line 5:  Fine by me,  but before you do,  would you consider that a horse is any LESS entitled to a compassionate and humane end to its life than a sheep or a steer?  Are you really so determined that horses should live out their final days in misery?  A pointless question,  I accept,  as by now you've probably awarded me the undoubted distinction of a welcome UI status! 

Alec.


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## Maesfen (14 April 2015)

I want a like Alec button for ^^ that reply.


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## LittleRooketRider (14 April 2015)

Maesfen said:



			I want a like Alec button for ^^ that reply.
		
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Me too.


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## fburton (14 April 2015)

Maesfen said:



			All horses will die at some point.  It is what happens to them between birth and death that is important and that death is humane.
		
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Totally agree - and whether or not love or 'love' is professed is immaterial to the horse.


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## Dobiegirl (14 April 2015)

Big Bucks is right there is a tremendous  movement to address the surplus of horses coming out of training and its a dam shame that has not been recognised by some people on this forum but I cant help but think if every horse was guaranteed a happy home it still wouldnt be good enough for them.


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## Smurf's Gran (14 April 2015)

Dobiegirl said:



			Big Bucks is right there is a tremendous  movement to address the surplus of horses coming out of training and its a dam shame that has not been recognised by some people on this forum but I cant help but think if every horse was guaranteed a happy home it still wouldnt be good enough for them.
		
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DG  I'm not sure you are right though - I just don't think its info that is widely known.  Its really helpful that BB has provided the info


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## fburton (14 April 2015)

applecart14 said:



			I have never been a racehorse trainer or owner, nor would like to ever go down this avenue but I imagine that trying to find homes for ex racehorses is a total nightmare, due mainly to their breed.
		
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Is it really the breeding more than the training? I brought up a TB from a foal and didn't do much more with him than hacking out, and while he enjoyed his gallops he had a super gentle temperament - biddable, willing and kind.


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## LittleRooketRider (14 April 2015)

Smurf's Gran said:



			DG  I'm not sure you are right though - I just don't think its info that is widely known.  Its really helpful that BB has provided the info
		
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If you go to any show runnign an exracehors/RoR cass they are massively supported...an increase in the last few years eg. a local show I help run used to have about 3-5 entrants every year, a local trainer donated a prize and in recent years this has become oneof the most entered classes with 20 odd in a class- this is also something I have seen at several other local shows (and its not always the same people)

This is also seen at teh 'higher' end shows eg. county and agricultural, all the big shows I've been to either as a competitor or spectator it has been quite noticeable how popular/strongly supported the RoR challenge/class is. And I'm yet to meet a big time horse at one of these, talking to the owners the vast majority were run once/couple of times and were useless or had the very odd success at low-levels.


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## tess1 (14 April 2015)

Alec Swan said:



			Two points for you,  firstly the re-homing charities are at certainly at fault,  as are the established equine charities,  and secondly,  it isn't the fault horses,  but those who would,  generally from an unrealistic standpoint,  refuse to accept that a horse is no different an animal to a sheep,  as both deserve and are entitled to a humane end rather than being viewed as an income stream when they've reached the end of their useful lives,  and being kept in often disgraceful conditions to be used as no more than implements to tug at the heartstrings of the well intentioned and generally ill informed.  

The 'ill informed' and I'd suggest that you may well be amongst them, and however well intentioned are responsible for this frightful mess.

Alec.
		
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I wonder how all the folk who work picking up the pieces for these race horses would feel about your opinion.  I don't think anyone has suggested that race horses who no longer race should be left to live out their lives in neglect, or exploited as an income stream, or denied a humane end so I am not sure where you would get any of those ideas from.  I am pleased to see however that you acknowledge that the racing industry is, indeed, in a frightful mess - although frankly that mess is of its own doing, as it is very clear that the industry is influenced little, or not at all, by those outside it.


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## tess1 (14 April 2015)

It is very gratifying to read of the ways in which some folk are pro-actively trying to address the problem of what to do with race horses that no longer race - although some people seem to be suggesting it's better to just ship them all off to slaughter as they are going to die at some point anyway.


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## ester (14 April 2015)

Dobiegirl said:



			Big Bucks is right there is a tremendous  movement to address the surplus of horses coming out of training and its a dam shame that has not been recognised by some people on this forum but I cant help but think if every horse was guaranteed a happy home it still wouldnt be good enough for them.
		
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It is a work in progress though and relatively new in terms of duration of racing so I don't think it is bad to say there are lots of improvements possible or fair to say that if every horse was guaranteed a happy home it wouldn't be good enough for people.

I do think it sad that some owners are happy to pour a huge amount of money into their horses while racing, for them to end up in a bad way in later life.


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## tess1 (14 April 2015)

ester said:



			It is a work in progress though and relatively new in terms of duration of racing so I don't think it is bad to say there are lots of improvements possible or fair to say that if every horse was guaranteed a happy home it wouldn't be good enough for people.

I do think it sad that some owners are happy to pour a huge amount of money into their horses while racing, for them to end up in a bad way in later life.
		
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Who knows ... it could even be that some overly-emotional, under-informed numpties have put a little pressure on the racing industry to come up with a way to improve its image with regard to the fate of its racehorses.


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## MurphysMinder (14 April 2015)

Maesfen said:



			There were more than 11 MM (so I was told) many of them taken from our local practices; I know Hampton, Fyrnwy, Nantwich were all well represented plus experienced horse people at every fence and turn, anywhere a horse could (or shouldn't) go ready for any eventuality.  
The vet scraping him off comes to me sometimes, she's top class and a really hands on person, he wouldn't have been in better hands.
		
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Yes, she is excellent isn't she.  Was out to my Cushings pony only last week, talk about chalk and cheese.


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## Dobiegirl (14 April 2015)

ester said:



			It is a work in progress though and relatively new in terms of duration of racing so I don't think it is bad to say there are lots of improvements possible or fair to say that if every horse was guaranteed a happy home it wouldn't be good enough for people.

I do think it sad that some owners are happy to pour a huge amount of money into their horses while racing, for them to end up in a bad way in later life.
		
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As I said way back Im on a lot of racing fb groups one of which is where are they now, its wonderful seeing all the people posting photos and an update on their horses, some of these horses were in training and never made it to the race course but the trainers/owners had made sure they went to good homes. Its heart warming to read of people asking about if anyone remembered their horses in training and the amount of stable staff on there who do and provide photos of way back, there are a lot of good people out there doing their best and this needs to be recognised and applauded.


IMO the nub of the matter is syndicates not all of them but the AW horses seem to be the ones who are most at risk, the low end of horse racing if you like, it is being addressed though and a lot of people are involved trying to solve it. IMO Greyhound racing is far worse as there are too few outlets for them when they have finished racing and a date with a bolt gun is very likely.


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## BigBuck's (14 April 2015)

tess1 said:



			Who knows ... it could even be that some overly-emotional, under-informed numpties have put a little pressure on the racing industry to come up with a way to improve its image with regard to the fate of its racehorses.
		
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You really do seem unable or unwilling in the extreme to allow for the possibility that people within racing may have recognised of their own accord that more needed to be done and acted accordingly.  Does it stick in your craw too much to give even a little bit of credit where it's due?


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## tess1 (14 April 2015)

Well, I can only go by what I have read on here ... and, to be honest, if the attitude represented by the majority of the pro-racing fraternity on here is indicitive of the attitude in racing overall I cannot see where the motivation or compassion would have come from within the industry to actually consider the welfare of the horse once the last race had been run.  Many people have been very blase ... a more 'emotive' person may say 'callous' ... about the prospect of fit, healthy animals being sent off to slaughter because they simply don't fulfil the needs of the owners any longer, or they are surplus to requirements.  Not to mention the kind of lives they are subjected to, or the risks that are taken with them, or the injuries they suffer on the race course.  So no, it does not 'stick in my craw' at all if it is genuinely the case that there were enough people, with some 'clout' within the industry, who cared enough about the animals to take a pro-active stance ... as opposed to being motivated to do so by pressure being put on from outside by welfare organisations, charities and even the general public as awareness grew of the fate of racehorses once their 'useful' days were over.


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## BigBuck's (14 April 2015)

tess1 said:



			Well, I can only go by what I have read on here ... and, to be honest, if the attitude represented by the majority of the pro-racing fraternity on here is indicitive of the attitude in racing overall I cannot see where the motivation or compassion would have come from within the industry to actually consider the welfare of the horse once the last race had been run.  Many people have been very blase ... a more 'emotive' person may say 'callous' ... about the prospect of fit, healthy animals being sent off to slaughter because they simply don't fulfil the needs of the owners any longer, or they are surplus to requirements.  Not to mention the kind of lives they are subjected to, or the risks that are taken with them, or the injuries they suffer on the race course.  So no, it does not 'stick in my craw' at all if it is genuinely the case that there were enough people, with some 'clout' within the industry, who cared enough about the animals to take a pro-active stance ... as opposed to being motivated to do so by pressure being put on from outside by welfare organisations, charities and even the general public as awareness grew of the fate of racehorses once their 'useful' days were over.
		
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Fine.  A couple of people (hardly "many") have said they feel slaughter is preferable to a downward spiral of decline and neglect, and from that you've extrapolated negative assumptions about every single individual within racing.  I don't feel there's any point in continuing a debate with someone as close-minded as that.  Enjoy the rest of your evening.


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## Meowy Catkin (14 April 2015)

tess1 said:



			Well,I cannot see where the motivation or compassion would have come from within the industry to actually consider the welfare of the horse once the last race had been run. .
		
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I'm glad to say that IME, you are very, very wrong.


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## tess1 (14 April 2015)

BigBuck's said:



			Fine.  A couple of people (hardly "many") have said they feel slaughter is preferable to a downward spiral of decline and neglect, and from that you've extrapolated negative assumptions about every single individual within racing.  I don't feel there's any point in continuing a debate with someone as close-minded as that.  Enjoy the rest of your evening.
		
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not quite ... the majority (please note my use of the word 'majority' - as it was used in my previous post, still allowing for a 'minority') of the pro-racing people have gone to great lengths to tell me that it is unrealistic or undesirable to retire or re-home ex-racehorses, that they have no problem with seeing them slaughtered, indeed they are born to die, so why not just crack on and get it over with, and that a multi-million pound industry cannot take any sort of responsibility for these animals once they have served out their useful purpose.  I have not in any way said that a downward spiral of neglect is preferable to a humane death.  What is preferable to an untimely death is a safe, happy retirement, or the potential to retrain for another activity.  The majority of pro-race posters on this thread do not seem to belive that is a feasible alternative.  I am glad (if what you say is correct) that some folk within the industry were more compassionate and imaginative than many (but clearly not all) on this thread.


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## tess1 (14 April 2015)

Faracat said:



			I'm glad to say that IME, you are very, very wrong.
		
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And I am very, very glad to hear it.


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## tess1 (14 April 2015)

I just wonder could anyone shed any futher light on this ....

http://www.jeanniesequestrianworld.co.uk/2014/11/22/protest-funding-loss-retraining-ex-racehorses/


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## Smurf's Gran (14 April 2015)

tess1 said:



			I just wonder could anyone shed any futher light on this ....

http://www.jeanniesequestrianworld.co.uk/2014/11/22/protest-funding-loss-retraining-ex-racehorses/

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Thanks for posting, it was quite an eye opener.  I would be interested to hear the views of those on here who have been clear that racing is supporting its own, or at least starting to, as this seems to be quite the reverse.


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## firm (14 April 2015)

I am sure you will have already found this as you are so keen to know about it ;-)  This is World Horse Welfares take on it   http://www.worldhorsewelfare.org/Ar...s-collaboration-with-Retraining-of-Racehorses


and a bit off their FB page  "the retraining programme is being completely funded by charity Retraining of Racehorses, and the horses will remain the property of us for life, being loaned by rehomers as opposed to sold, in order to safeguard their future."


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## tess1 (14 April 2015)

nope, I didn't know anything about it ...

"So, in addition to the centres that already receive RoR funding, we are delighted to be working with World Horse Welfare and to be able use their extensive experience and expertise."

So this bit  ^^^^^ seems to contradict what is being said in the previous article, "Under their contracts, the centres have now received a year&#8217;s notice and the funding will cease at the end of 2015".

ummmmm .... any further clarification ...


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## tess1 (14 April 2015)

how odd ... the Chief Exectuive of RoR seems to hold similar opinions to myself ... now who'd have thunk it .... me, an over-emotional, under-informed numpty ... 

In a telephone comment Mrs Arbuthnot added: &#8220;We cannot continue to fund retraining of retired racehorses in the current way.  Owners and trainers have to be responsible for their horses&#8217; future outside racing and must fund their retraining.They have to be made accountable and pay for the retraining, otherwise it is like throwing your granny out on the street when she is too old. Because of that we cannot continue the current funding scheme.&#8221;


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## Holly Hocks (14 April 2015)

From reading this thread, it seems that those who are pro-racing are the ones who have taken on ex-racehorses after their racing career is over.  I myself am on my third, and I know Justabob is an ex-racehorse owner.  So the ones who support racing are the ones who take them on.  Tess, how  many ex-racers have you taken on?  You say that you want to see something done after their careers are over, so if you want to take one on, there are plenty of us on here who can put you in touch with some relevant people.


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## Elf On A Shelf (14 April 2015)

Many stable staff can't bear to part with their charges and take them home too. That's why I ended up with 3 from work and 1 from another yard ... 3 injured when I took them home, one retired due to age.


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## tess1 (14 April 2015)

Holly Hocks said:



			From reading this thread, it seems that those who are pro-racing are the ones who have taken on ex-racehorses after their racing career is over.  I myself am on my third, and I know Justabob is an ex-racehorse owner.  So the ones who support racing are the ones who take them on.  Tess, how  many ex-racers have you taken on?  You say that you want to see something done after their careers are over, so if you want to take one on, there are plenty of us on here who can put you in touch with some relevant people.
		
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ha ha ... no, you're OK, thanks for the offer, but at my altitude I would rather take on Welsh ponies and cobs ... much more suited to the conditions of my land.  Otherwise I would end up as being labelled one of those numpties who took on a TB when they didn't have adequate resources to meet his needs.


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## tess1 (14 April 2015)

EKW said:



			Many stable staff can't bear to part with their charges and take them home too. That's why I ended up with 3 from work and 1 from another yard ... 3 injured when I took them home, one retired due to age.
		
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lovely ... now if they were all like you, none of us would need to worry at all, would we.


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## Smurf's Gran (14 April 2015)

Holly Hocks said:



			From reading this thread, it seems that those who are pro-racing are the ones who have taken on ex-racehorses after their racing career is over.  I myself am on my third, and I know Justabob is an ex-racehorse owner.  So the ones who support racing are the ones who take them on.  Tess, how  many ex-racers have you taken on?  You say that you want to see something done after their careers are over, so if you want to take one on, there are plenty of us on here who can put you in touch with some relevant people.
		
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Why should she take a racehorse on if she is not involved in the industry ? that is tantamount to the general public helping racing out when it really should be sorting out its own issues.


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## druid (14 April 2015)

http://www.racingpost.com/news/hors...erwhelmed-by-messages-of-support/1855651/top/

The staff care.


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## Smurf's Gran (14 April 2015)

EKW said:



			Many stable staff can't bear to part with their charges and take them home too. That's why I ended up with 3 from work and 1 from another yard ... 3 injured when I took them home, one retired due to age.
		
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I know someone who did that - the horses lass was the only one who could manage it and when its racing career was over the owner "gave" the horse to her


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## tess1 (14 April 2015)

Smurf's Gran said:



			Why should she take a racehorse on if she is not involved in the industry ? that is tantamount to the general public helping racing out when it really should be sorting out its own issues.
		
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that's a really good way of putting it - thank you


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## Elf On A Shelf (14 April 2015)

Smurf's Gran said:



			I know someone who did that - the horses lass was the only one who could manage it and when its racing career was over the owner "gave" the horse to her
		
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I was given one of mine to stop an argument between the trainer and the person who had the owners PTP'er! Both wanted to have him in work so I rang the owner and said I would take him home - he was given to me gladly so he didn't have 2 women constantly narking at him over the animal lol! None of my 3 from work were ever going to go anywhere other than home with me when they finished racing. They were 'My' horses. There have been a few more but alas I can not take them all home but I do make sure 'My' horses find the best homes! Anther one of which is happy hacking round the South downs with my grand mother!


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## Alec Swan (14 April 2015)

tess1 said:



			lovely ... now if they were all like you, none of us would need to worry at all, would we.
		
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I'd suggest that you look at the website of Lucinda Russel and you will see just how many of their retired animals are put in to well considered homes;  'Well Considered' being the operative words.  There certainly are those horses which with a careful and with a well thought through rehabilitation plan,  can be absorbed back in to the happy-hacking way of life,  but rest assured that there are many which have become so damaged by the racing industry,  generally flat bred horses,  and to let them go to anyone but THE most experienced,  would be irresponsible at the very least.  Most responsible owners choose to put their horses down when their racing days are over.  The highly successful may well go on to a pampered retirement,  but the bulk of race horses aren't successful,  and equally,  they can be a frightful liability.  I've bred a good few TBs,  over the years,  and not one has ever been racing.  Every one of them,  brought up as we would bring up any horse,  has been no more difficult than any other youngster,  and they've all gone on to live useful lives.

I know,  I know,  there can be 100 posts advising that 'I've got a friend" etc etc,  but the 'bulk' of those flat bred horses,  which are sold on and all so often fillies,  go from pillar to post,  they're bought by the inexperienced and simply because they're cheap,  and having been owned by syndicates,  the instructions are to simply get rid of the horse,  and again,  all so often the kindest thing to do is to send the horse off to heaven.  Sadly,  the re-homing of ex racehorses isn't generally the answer.  A few can be got round,  but the bulk of them are damaged goods and the horror stories are legion.

My arguments are considering what is 'generally' in the best interest of the horse itself.  I'd very much like to be wrong,  but I fear that I'm not.

Alec.


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## tess1 (14 April 2015)

Thanks for sharing your opinion, although I'm not sure whether you are saying RoR efforts/funding are a waste of time, or not?  Just to reiterate, I don't believe that in any of my posts I've suggested that passing on TBs to inappropriate homes is the way forward.  I do agree with you that the industry damages horses very badly, and for some there is a point of no return.  I think I did say that each horse should be assessed as an individual by experienced staff, in an ideal world (which the world is not, I appreciate).  I am sure that some very nice horses have been shot, and some seriously damaged and dangerous animals have ended up in situtions which is of no benefit to either themselves or anyone else.  It may well be a leap beyond the imagination of most race supporters to consider that a sport which damages its athletes so badly that there is no possible chance of rehabiliation when their careers are over could do with some modification.  That may well be seen as over-complicating things.  It is, of course, much easier to just shoot them.

I'm still waiting for enlightenment re the two articles from those people who told me how well the racehorse industry was doing at funding its own.  It would be interesting to know whether these proposed changes will result in more or less funding, greater or fewer numbers of horses put into re-training programmes, and whether the BHA is serious about its comments on owners and trainers needing to take responsibility for the re-training of their horses ... or whether it's simply a get out clause for the BHA to avoid putting more money into re-training programmes.


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## ycbm (14 April 2015)

Alec Swan said:



			A few can be got round,  but the bulk of them are damaged goods and the horror stories are legion.
		
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This isn't my experience. I have bought ten, most at Doncaster sales, and retrained them. Nine made really nice horses. One was fine unless her feet hit grass in an open space. One of the nine got navicular. All bar the navicular case were sold on to good homes, in the days before ex racers were worth a pittance.  

As an aside, I don't believe any more racehorses are rehomed now than they ever were, possibly fewer. In the days before microchips they were bought in bulk by dealers and sold on without their passports as 3/4 or 7/8 ID crosses. These days, it is much more obvious how many of them are hitting the market and the value has consequently crashed. 

This in turn has meant that it is impossible to make a profit on retraining them if you keep them for a decent training period, resulting in fewer people like me buying one or two a year to turn into riding club horses. I think the retraining really needs to be done by charities, and that has to be funded somehow by the industry, surely?


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## bonny (14 April 2015)

The value of all horses has crashed though, especially ones without competition experience, it's not just tb's that are struggling to find good homes.


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## ycbm (14 April 2015)

bonny said:



			The value of all horses has crashed though, especially ones without competition experience, it's not just tb's that are struggling to find good homes.
		
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It used to be possible until about 1999. to sell a retrained ex race who had done some riding club dressage and show jumping for the same price as any other horse of a similar size who had done the same. The sweet spot was 2,500, which I got or exceeded for eight of mine and 1850 for the flighty mare.

I don't think that is the case now, and while the market is low for all horse, it is disastrous for ex racers. 

I could sell both my youngsters now for more than double what I paid for them last year (i have offers, this is not just a fantasy). If I'd bought them from Doncaster instead, they'd still be worth a lot less than their keep and what I paid for them at Doncaster, where the minimum bid last time I looked was 800 guineas.


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## bonny (14 April 2015)

ycbm said:



			It used to be possible to sell a retrained ex race who had done some riding club dressage and show jumping for the same price as any other horse of a similar size who had done the same. I don't think that is the case now, and while the market is low for all horse, it is disastrous for ex racers. 

I could sell both my youngsters now for more than double what I paid for them last year (i have offers, this is not just a fantasy). If I'd bought them from Doncaster instead, they'd still be worth pretty much what I paid for them at Doncaster, where the minimum bid last time I looked was 800 guineas.
		
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Then part of the problem has to be public perception of tb's which isn't helped by threads like this, by lumping them all in together and by the idea that they are all physical and mental wrecks and will be regardless of how long ago they raced !


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## ycbm (14 April 2015)

bonny said:



			Then part of the problem has to be public perception of tb's which isn't helped by threads like this, by lumping them all in together and by the idea that they are all physical and mental wrecks and will be regardless of how long ago they raced !
		
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I agree. That's why I posted my own experience that they make good horses. I think only Alec has said that they don't, but I haven't read the thread in detail.


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## justabob (15 April 2015)

tess1 said:



			I just wonder could anyone shed any futher light on this ....

http://www.jeanniesequestrianworld.co.uk/2014/11/22/protest-funding-loss-retraining-ex-racehorses/

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You are amazing Tess1, have you ever thought of standing for parliament, because your ability to pick out sentences and quotes out of context to build your argument are worthy of most ministers vying for control of this country. 3 days you have pontificated, argued, annoyed, what have you achieved............nothing other than to irritate. On the other hand, myself and others have been busy looking after our ex race horses, our sheep as it is lambing time, and in the case of all you hold vile, the wonderful staff in racing yards looking after their charges. You, on the other hand must have spent many an hour on this forum spouting uninformed rubbish about a subject you know nothing about other than you have misguidedly surmised from god knows where. May I suggest that you take a look at a group called Racehorses Where Are They Now, you will find that in this group on Face Book that there are 12,500 members, most of which have re-homed at least one race horse. Some very high profile horses and some not so. Some of  us are proactive and some like your self talk the talk and achieve begger all. Now go and do something constructive.


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## Dobiegirl (15 April 2015)

justabob said:



			You are amazing Tess1, have you ever thought of standing for parliament, because your ability to pick out sentences and quotes out of context to build your argument are worthy of most ministers vying for control of this country. 3 days you have pontificated, argued, annoyed, what have you achieved............nothing other than to irritate. On the other hand, myself and others have been busy looking after our ex race horses, our sheep as it is lambing time, and in the case of all you hold vile, the wonderful staff in racing yards looking after their charges. You, on the other hand must have spent many an hour on this forum spouting uninformed rubbish about a subject you know nothing about other than you have misguidedly surmised from god knows where. May I suggest that you take a look at a group called Racehorses Where Are They Now, you will find that in this group on Face Book that there are 12,500 members, most of which have re-homed at least one race horse. Some very high profile horses and some not so. Some of  us are proactive and some like your self talk the talk and achieve begger all. Now go and do something constructive.
		
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I couldnt agree more, how she is able to spend all day and night on here I don't know. If she really wanted to know the answer to these problems she is addressing the wrong people, people can only give their own experiences after all. Perhaps Tess would be better getting it from the horses mouth the BHA, please let us know their response.

Justabob I hope she doesn't join that fb group which is a lovely harmonious group, I just love seeing all the photos and peoples stories of their ex racers.


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## Smurf's Gran (15 April 2015)

justabob said:



			You are amazing Tess1, have you ever thought of standing for parliament, because your ability to pick out sentences and quotes out of context to build your argument are worthy of most ministers vying for control of this country. 3 days you have pontificated, argued, annoyed, what have you achieved............nothing other than to irritate. On the other hand, myself and others have been busy looking after our ex race horses, our sheep as it is lambing time, and in the case of all you hold vile, the wonderful staff in racing yards looking after their charges. You, on the other hand must have spent many an hour on this forum spouting uninformed rubbish about a subject you know nothing about other than you have misguidedly surmised from god knows where. May I suggest that you take a look at a group called Racehorses Where Are They Now, you will find that in this group on Face Book that there are 12,500 members, most of which have re-homed at least one race horse. Some very high profile horses and some not so. Some of  us are proactive and some like your self talk the talk and achieve begger all. Now go and do something constructive.
		
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Justabob.  How very rude your comments are. 

 Perhaps you could add something intelligent to the debate instead of the above personal attack.  I don't find Tess - 1's comments irritating at all - she has as much right to be here as you, and to ask the questions she has.  You may not have noticed but her questions have sparked some interesting information and others have provided info also, as a result of this debate I have learned things about RoR and rehab that I didn't know.   This has been very helpful for many I'm sure.


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## Smurf's Gran (15 April 2015)

Dobiegirl said:



			I couldnt agree more, how she is able to spend all day and night on here I don't know. If she really wanted to know the answer to these problems she is addressing the wrong people, people can only give their own experiences after all. Perhaps Tess would be better getting it from the horses mouth the BHA, please let us know their response.

Justabob I hope she doesn't join that fb group which is a lovely harmonious group, I just love seeing all the photos and peoples stories of their ex racers.
		
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Why not use the opportunity to educate rather than to denigrate for asking questions.  many people on here have provided info that has been helpful.

Incidentally, I did contact the BHA myself a couple of years ago in regard to something of concern printed in a newspaper - I found them to be really unhelpful and dismissive.


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## tess1 (15 April 2015)

justabob said:



			You are amazing Tess1, have you ever thought of standing for parliament, because your ability to pick out sentences and quotes out of context to build your argument are worthy of most ministers vying for control of this country. 3 days you have pontificated, argued, annoyed, what have you achieved............nothing other than to irritate. On the other hand, myself and others have been busy looking after our ex race horses, our sheep as it is lambing time, and in the case of all you hold vile, the wonderful staff in racing yards looking after their charges. You, on the other hand must have spent many an hour on this forum spouting uninformed rubbish about a subject you know nothing about other than you have misguidedly surmised from god knows where. May I suggest that you take a look at a group called Racehorses Where Are They Now, you will find that in this group on Face Book that there are 12,500 members, most of which have re-homed at least one race horse. Some very high profile horses and some not so. Some of  us are proactive and some like your self talk the talk and achieve begger all. Now go and do something constructive.
		
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So it would appear you have nothing further of any worth to add to the argument, and have now resorted to personal attacks.  Please explain what sentences are out of context, I have posted links to the full articles.  The quotes/figures in this thread have come from the BHA and the Chief Exec of RoR.  You have no idea what I've been doing in the last three days ... nor is it any of your business, frankly.  At no time have I in any way, shape or form insinuated that stable staff are vile, to me they are the most genuine people of all in horse racing, generally speaking ... so please try to remember the difference between personal opinion (I am amazing, annoying and irritating) and a lie (I hold stable staff to be vile). It's interesting that my uninformed rubbish seems to be echoed in an opinion that has gone on record from the Chief Exec of RoR, and that attacks on me have become more personal when I have asked for clarification on the current and future status of RoR and similar schemes.  I would have thought that folk who profess so much 'respect' and 'understanding' for race horses would be informed on what the BHA plans to put in place to help them when they retire. 

I didn't realise you had admin status and could tell me that I could no longer post on this thread.


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## Goldenstar (15 April 2015)

tess1 has conducted her argument with good manners and without resorting to name calling .
Those who find this irritating should perhaps consider withdrawing from the thread themselves if they can't cope with debating an issue without resorting to being unpleasant and rude .
I don't agree with tess1's point of view but I understand where she coming from and she has every right to express it and spend as much time as she likes doing so.


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## ester (15 April 2015)

I have to say I've found it an interesting discussion, I am not anti racing but that doesn't mean I don't think improvements could be made for the continued welfare of the horses involved and I don't understand why that seems to be such an issue for others. 

Justabob I actually thought you above such personal posts, there are plenty of people that think individuals can only do so much and that lobbying further up on things will lead to greater improvements (not just for racehorses!)


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## fburton (15 April 2015)

Goldenstar said:



			tess1 has conducted her argument with good manners and without resorting to name calling .
Those who find this irritating should perhaps consider withdrawing from the thread themselves if they can't cope with debating an issue without resorting to being unpleasant and rude .
I don't agree with tess1's point of view but I understand where she coming from and she has every right to express it and spend as much time as she likes doing so.
		
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Well said, GS.


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## tess1 (15 April 2015)

bonny said:



			Then part of the problem has to be public perception of tb's which isn't helped by threads like this, by lumping them all in together and by the idea that they are all physical and mental wrecks and will be regardless of how long ago they raced !
		
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Only Alec has suggested that they are all beyond redemption (if I understood his post correctly).  The point of 'threads like this' is to put forward the view that many racehorses are redeemable, and could have a happy retirement, or be retrained for an alternative activity, and that effort and money should go into finding ways to do that for as many as possible - notwithstanding that there will be some - usually from the flat - who are beyond help and hope.  And that the racing industry itself should take responsibility for that, seeing as it is built on the back of these horses.  Personally, I think the 'racing industry' should encompass the wider picture - bookies and punters, not just owners and trainers.


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## applecart14 (15 April 2015)

fburton said:



			Is it really the breeding more than the training? I brought up a TB from a foal and didn't do much more with him than hacking out, and while he enjoyed his gallops he had a super gentle temperament - biddable, willing and kind.
		
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Of course there are exceptions to every rule, and TB's brought up in a different environment where they have a one to one with someone on a day to day level would I imagine have a different behaviour than those who live in stables 23 hours a day on a racing yard. What I meant is that an Arab, TB or WB is obviously 'hotter blooded' that an Irish cob, Welshie, or a Shire and would therefore be more problematic with regards rehoming to people not used this type of horse.

Personally I have always believed that the 'nurture v nature' debate is about 70% / 30% anyway.


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## Alec Swan (15 April 2015)

tess1 said:



			Only Alec has suggested that they are all beyond redemption (if I understood his post correctly). &#8230;&#8230;.. .
		
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You didn't understand my post correctly.  Read again what I wrote,  and you may come away with a better understanding.  

Whilst not being aimed specifically at you tess1,  it still amazes me that so many sit in judgement and base their often theorised twaddle around what they've read,  rather than their own experiences.

Alec.


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## applecart14 (15 April 2015)

Goldenstar said:



			tess1 has conducted her argument with good manners and without resorting to name calling .
Those who find this irritating should perhaps consider withdrawing from the thread themselves if they can't cope with debating an issue without resorting to being unpleasant and rude .
I don't agree with tess1's point of view but I understand where she coming from and she has every right to express it and spend as much time as she likes doing so.
		
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This forum is starting to become a bitching platform for certain people who hide behind user names and feel that they are at liberty to insult others as they see fit. Of course the more the upset their 'target' becomes, the more joy they get out of it. When their victim starts to retailiate they turn it around on them and accuse them of being aggresive or rude.  Pathetic and sad.


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## fburton (15 April 2015)

applecart14 said:



			Of course there are exceptions to every rule, and TB's brought up in a different environment where they have a one to one with someone on a day to day level would I imagine have a different behaviour than those who live in stables 23 hours a day on a racing yard. What I meant is that an Arab, TB or WB is obviously 'hotter blooded' that an Irish cob, Welshie, or a Shire and would therefore be more problematic with regards rehoming to people not used this type of horse.
		
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Point taken. The same argument applies to entires vs geldings. I think training can go a long way to offset the natural tendency for the former to be 'difficult', but the tendency to be hotter can't be ignored.




			Personally I have always believed that the 'nurture v nature' debate is about 70% / 30% anyway.
		
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Yup, I reckon the balance is somewhere close to that.


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## tess1 (15 April 2015)

Alec Swan said:



			You didn't understand my post correctly.  Read again what I wrote,  and you may come away with a better understanding.  

Whilst not being aimed specifically at you tess1,  it still amazes me that so many sit in judgement and base their often theorised twaddle around what they've read,  rather than their own experiences.

Alec.
		
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well I asked you for clarification Alec, and I read it several times before I asked for that, so I feel it would be more helpful to simply write clearly what you mean rather than make personal jibes at people.


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## Indy (15 April 2015)

Sadly, the re-homing of ex racehorses isn't generally the answer. A few can be got round, but the bulk of them are damaged goods and the horror stories are legion.

If Tess1 didn't understand it, neither did I because I more or less read it the same way.  The particular paragraph above I don't agree with - purely through my own experience of rehoming/schooling ex racehorses.


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## Maesfen (15 April 2015)

Alec Swan said:



			I'd suggest that you look at the website of Lucinda Russel and you will see just how many of their retired animals are put in to well considered homes;  'Well Considered' being the operative words.  There certainly are those horses which with a careful and with a well thought through rehabilitation plan,  can be absorbed back in to the happy-hacking way of life,  but rest assured that there are many which have become so damaged by the racing industry,  generally flat bred horses,  and to let them go to anyone but THE most experienced,  would be irresponsible at the very least.  Most responsible owners choose to put their horses down when their racing days are over.  The highly successful may well go on to a pampered retirement,  but the bulk of race horses aren't successful,  and equally,  they can be a frightful liability.  I've bred a good few TBs,  over the years,  and not one has ever been racing.  Every one of them,  brought up as we would bring up any horse,  has been no more difficult than any other youngster,  and they've all gone on to live useful lives.

I know,  I know,  there can be 100 posts advising that 'I've got a friend" etc etc,  but the 'bulk' of those flat bred horses,  which are sold on and all so often fillies,  go from pillar to post,  they're bought by the inexperienced and simply because they're cheap,  and having been owned by syndicates,  the instructions are to simply get rid of the horse,  and again,  all so often the kindest thing to do is to send the horse off to heaven.  Sadly,  the re-homing of ex racehorses isn't generally the answer.  A few can be got round,  but the bulk of them are damaged goods and the horror stories are legion.

My arguments are considering what is 'generally' in the best interest of the horse itself.  I'd very much like to be wrong,  but I fear that I'm not.

Alec.
		
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What is so difficult to understand in this Tess?


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## tess1 (15 April 2015)

Maesfen said:



			What is so difficult to understand in this Tess?
		
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well, pretty much the same thing that Indy pointed out ... that according to Alec the vast majority of racehorses are so badly damaged their best off shot ... reading between the lines the take away message (for me) was that it was pretty pointless trying to do anything with all but a minority of them.  Which is why I asked for him to clarify his thoughts on the RoR scheme.  I did look at the website he directed me to and all I could see was clear descriptions of horses that a trainer was trying to find homes for ... which seemed to contradict what he was saying in his post, that appropriate homes for ex-racers are so few and far between that it is pointless to bother.


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## Maesfen (15 April 2015)

Well, I do happen to agree with him that a lot of them are not suitable for rehoming which is proved time and time again by seeing many of them re-advertised all over again very shortly after the often novice owner has been frightened to death of them.  Many of them are former shadows of what they were because they have not been fed properly because the person couldn't cope with them so you get the added problems of neglect by misjudgement of capabilities.
I think a lot of it is down to riders not  being totally honest with themselves in the first place and asking if they are really able to cope with them, not just the riding and retraining needed but the additional upkeep of something not long out of training and all the mental and physical issues that go long with that.
I honestly do believe that if a horse is known to be quirky, either to handle or to ride, then in the best interests of that horse, it is better put down than allowed to go down the slippery slope of being passed from pillar to post if circumstances should change and we have all seen that catch phrase in adverts 'owing to change in circumstances'.  Yes, it can be true but in many cases it is a get out after having bought something totally unsuitable for that rider and many don't actually care where that horse will end up which to me is shirking responsibility for a living animal. 
I also believe that many of them can go on and lead useful safe lives out of racing; I've had many here that were just that, sane, sensible and safe with their odd moments at times; I personally loved to ride a TB, they are the Rolls Royce of horses when you find the right one but they are not for everyone, particularly some of the newer riders about today.  
The problems seem to lie in neither the owners or trainers being perfectly honest about each horse as an individual and what sort of life it could safely lead out of racing in a possible novice environment.  If there is the slightest doubt as to suitability and acknowledging that most syndicates/owners just want rid, then in all fairness to the horse, do the responsible thing, don't just wash your hands of it.  That is the responsible side of horse ownership for anyone whether it be a Shetland or a TB.


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## ester (15 April 2015)

I think it kind of agrees with what I said earlier, that owners should be responsible and put those not suitable for the general public down and rehome those suitable for rehab and rehoming?


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## Maesfen (15 April 2015)

Yes, and I think I agreed with you earlier too when you said it!


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## tess1 (15 April 2015)

so am I right in thinking that you both think that the work done by RoR schemes and specialised TB charities is a waste of time as well?  And therefore the most responsible thing that any owner can do, if a TB is anything other than the most placid (???) is to have it shot.

Just to reiterate, I don't think that at any point on this thread anyone has suggested that sending TBs to inappropriate homes is the way forward.  I certainly don't think that sending them out to 'novice' homes or the general public has ever been suggested.


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## Optimissteeq (15 April 2015)

ester said:



			I think it kind of agrees with what I said earlier, that owners should be responsible and put those not suitable for the general public down and rehome those suitable for rehab and rehoming?
		
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So this I agree with - and is something that I do myself. By re-homing I personally prefer the route of going via the route of using the recognised charities that track the horse and vet the prospective homes. that is not to say we should rule out re-homing to suitable individuals. My own view/worry is that if owners were forced to pay for their retirement for the rest of their lives, then some owners would put the horse to sleep as a default option.

I'd also like to see more funding for the re-homing charities but that's a thorny topic.  
_My next comment is not made at anyone in particular_
I  feel the racing industry has come a long way to improving things - yes there's more to do (isn't there always?) but this may be achieved if more constructive ideas were suggested without quite so much emotion. Difficult to do when someone feels very passionately.


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## Optimissteeq (15 April 2015)

tess1 said:



			so am I right in thinking that you both think that the work done by RoR schemes and specialised TB charities is a waste of time as well?  And therefore the most responsible thing that any owner can do, if a TB is anything other than the most placid (???) is to have it shot.

Just to reiterate, I don't think that at any point on this thread anyone has suggested that sending TBs to inappropriate homes is the way forward.  I certainly don't think that sending them out to 'novice' homes or the general public has ever been suggested.
		
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Hello Tess,
                I do think here you are twisting the words slightly. I understood this as re-homing suitable horses but the unsuitable ones should be PTS. At no point was it stated that suitability meant it had to be placid only. As a point of interest, what would you consider the best option for a horse that bit/attacked people to be?. I do know of one that came to a yard local to me, that had broken several bones in various lads/lassies, would bite at every opportunity and also take chunks out of his stable mates when turned out. I do not know the history of the horse so can't comment on why he was the way he was (I can guess). What would you suggest could be done with this horse? Said horse was ten years old by the way

Edited to add - horse had a series of x-rays and checks for back/foot/teeth problems. Vets concluded it was not pain causing the issue


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## Maesfen (15 April 2015)

Lol Tess, you really do try to twist words to your way of thinking.

I don't think anyone has decried the rehab centres or the RoR premise but you must be able to admit surely, that NOT EVERY HORSE will actually be suitable for rehoming and those that aren't, if a guaranteed permanent safe home is not available with experienced people, then they are surely better off put down so that they don't cause damage to others or suffer themselves.  
The rehab centres do a grand job (in the main) but they can't take them all even if owners/trainers were willing to pay due to space and labour constraints, surely you can admit that.  Better that they can take the ones that are suitable for retraining than waste resources on something that is a lost cause from the start which is where Ester and I (plus others) say if the horse is not suitable for retraining/rehoming, then do the responsible thing and put it down but we are not saying put all ex-racers down, far from it so don't twist our words.

That's the last I can say, I really must get on and finish a Thomas the Tank engine jumper for my grandson now!


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## tess1 (15 April 2015)

if owners were forced to pay for their retirement for the rest of their lives, then some owners would put the horse to sleep as a default option.

But that is not the same as saying "what if everyone were charged a little more".  I am not suggesting that an owner should fund a horse for the rest of his life after retirement ... I am saying that, if a revenue was gathered from owners, trainers, punters and bookies - then there would be a 'pot' that could fund each horse's retraining/retirement if they were assesed as being suitable.  The severely damaged ones that cannot cope outside the institutionalised environment of racing, then yes, sadly, there is only one option ... but lots of horses could be eased into an enjoyable retirement in various guises.  The involvement of bona fide charities, with appropriately experienced staff would ensure that each horse is given either the best retirement option, or, if at any stage it becomes clear they are not going to be safe to handle, a swift and humane end.  Homes could be checked and track kept of where horses are.  This must surely be better than the current option where the decision rests with the owners, and, if they have no attachment to the horse, shooting will be seen as the easiest (not, necessarily, to my mind) the most responsible choice.  To decide to have a horse shot is the most responsible choice if that horse is a danger to himself and possibly those that handle him outside a racing environment, and it is deemed that a process of retraining by experienced folk is not going to improve that situation.  Having a horse shot who could lead a useful and happy life after racing is not the most responsible choice, it's just the easiest one for a lot of owners who do not want to be bothered with worrying about their animals once their racing days are over.  With a decent system in place the owner would not even need to be involved in the decision making - unless they wanted to be.  What is so bad about the racing industry as a whole stepping up and taking responsibility for the fate these animals?

By the way ... if you want to call me over-emotional or under-informed go right ahead, don't pussy foot around by saying "this isn't addressed to anyone but ..." ... at least I haven't compared the plight of racehorses to dumping your granny in the street like the Chief Exec of RoR.


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## bonny (15 April 2015)

What happens in the real world is always going to be different to what happens in an ideal world on a forum ! A lot of owners wouldn't know one end of a horse from another, let alone have the experience to make a decision about a horses future. Also a lot of racehorses are owned by syndicates, who makes the decision then ? I think the situation at present is fine, there are 100's of horses coming out of training every year and some of them will go on to lead useful lives and some won't. The 2 year olds, nearly all colts and fillies who haven't the potential or soundness to race really have no where to go unless their breeding is good enough to warrant going to stud.


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## Optimissteeq (15 April 2015)

tess1 said:



			if owners were forced to pay for their retirement for the rest of their lives, then some owners would put the horse to sleep as a default option.

But that is not the same as saying "what if everyone were charged a little more".  I am not suggesting that an owner should fund a horse for the rest of his life after retirement ... I am saying that, if a revenue was gathered from owners, trainers, punters and bookies - then there would be a 'pot' that could fund each horse's retraining/retirement if they were assesed as being suitable.  The severely damaged ones that cannot cope outside the institutionalised environment of racing, then yes, sadly, there is only one option ... but lots of horses could be eased into an enjoyable retirement in various guises.  The involvement of bona fide charities, with appropriately experienced staff would ensure that each horse is given either the best retirement option, or, if at any stage it becomes clear they are not going to be safe to handle, a swift and humane end.  Homes could be checked and track kept of where horses are.  This must surely be better than the current option where the decision rests with the owners, and, if they have no attachment to the horse, shooting will be seen as the easiest (not, necessarily, to my mind) the most responsible choice.  To decide to have a horse shot is the most responsible choice if that horse is a danger to himself and possibly those that handle him outside a racing environment, and it is deemed that a process of retraining by experienced folk is not going to improve that situation.  Having a horse shot who could lead a useful and happy life after racing is not the most responsible choice, it's just the easiest one for a lot of owners who do not want to be bothered with worrying about their animals once their racing days are over.  With a decent system in place the owner would not even need to be involved in the decision making - unless they wanted to be.  What is so bad about the racing industry as a whole stepping up and taking responsibility for the fate these animals?

By the way ... if you want to call me over-emotional or under-informed go right ahead, don't pussy foot around by saying "this isn't addressed to anyone but ..." ... at least I haven't compared the plight of racehorses to dumping your granny in the street like the Chief Exec of RoR.
		
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Hi tess,

Just a couple of points here - I actually agree that if owners, trainers and bookies etc were charged a small fee to support the charities then this might work. Your earlier posts seemed aimed soley at owners - hence my response.
Secondly - I am not pussy footing it around as you call it - I was not inferring you specifically with my comment - if you take the thread in it's entirety then there are quite a few emotional responses from both sides. I have not commented on the accuracy of the information shared.
However, your latest response to me does demonstrate that you are being emotional


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## tess1 (15 April 2015)

@ Maesfen and Optimisteeq - I don't think I've ever said every horse was suitable for re-homing ... see my post above ... 

I am not twisting words ... I am trying to understand the line of thinking on this forum.  Here's what I am getting from various posts:

There is no need for the BHA and all that it encompasses (owners, trainers, bookies and punters) to take responsibility for the horses that the entire industry is built on, once they are retired, despite the fact that the racing industry is massively wealthy, and would not exist at all if it weren't for the horses.

It seems that many folk who work in racing have taken on horses, and either kept them themselves or retrained and re-homed them - which is brilliant ... but it should not, and cannot always be down to caring individuals to take responsibility for the welfare of these animals.  How many stable staff have felt despair at watching their charge go off to an uncertain future, or untimely death (or both) and not been able to do anything about it?  (Sorry if that is a bit 'emotive' for some of you).

According to some, charities are to blame, they are a money making concern, there's not much point in rehabbing horses, most of them aren't rehomable anyway as there aren't enough experienced homes around.

Some people have told me that RoR is a fantastic scheme - now there are changes to that scheme in the offing, but nobody can enlighten this thread as to whether those changes will be better or worse for horses - more money, more horses transitioned through a viable system, or less money, less horses through the system, and more chance of problems.

At no point have I ever said that OTTBs should be rehomed to inappropriate or inexperienced homes; all OTTBs are suitable for rehoming.  And yet almost every poster seems to bring that up without fail.  I think it must be the 'stand-by' clause now that we have moved the debate on from 'racing is bad but riding schools/coloured cobs/laminitis/numpty owners/fly grazing is worse'.

When people run out of arguments they just make personal attacks on me.  I have (I think) answered every question that people have put to me - if I have missed anyone out, I apologise.  When I ask for clarification I am told to 'read it again' or that I am 'twisting words'.  I have been accused of unsubstatiated twaddle but pretty much every point I've made I've backed up with reference to an article that quotes RoR, WHW, BHA.  The Chief Exec of RoR is on record as saying that the plight of race horses currently is akin to throwing your granny out on the street because she is too old, and owners and trainers have got to step up and take responsibility.  Because I've found these things out, and quoted them, with links, I've been accused of constructing an argument a politician could be proud of.  Talk about shooting the messenger.


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## tess1 (15 April 2015)

bonny said:



			I think the situation at present is fine, there are 100's of horses coming out of training every year and some of them will go on to lead useful lives and some won't.
		
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There are approximately 5000 horses coming out of training every year.


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## Alec Swan (15 April 2015)

tess1 said:



			so am I right in thinking that you both think that the work done by RoR schemes and specialised TB charities is a waste of time as well?  And therefore the most responsible thing that any owner can do, if a TB is anything other than the most placid (???) is to have it shot.

Just to reiterate, I don't think that at any point on this thread anyone has suggested that sending TBs to inappropriate homes is the way forward.  I certainly don't think that sending them out to 'novice' homes or the general public has ever been suggested.
		
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Para 1.  Of course not,  but honestly now,  how many are there out there who have the vital experience and ability to work with those horses which are unable to fit in with the average rider?  Even those who have the abilities to get inside the most recalcitrant will have those horses come in,  out of training,  and though they 'manage' them,  the truth is that many of those which the racing industry has discarded will never fit in with anyone but the most experienced.  When these unmanageable horses are then re-homed,  what is their future?  

You also need to bear in mind that all so many horses leave racing at a comparatively young age,  and they've simply been worn down by their daily routine.  They turn up at a yard,  often in a rather poor state.  The new owner seeing their pitiful state makes their first serious mistake;  they feed them and get them looking well,  TOO well often,  and then once the animal is fully recovered,  that's when the fun and games start!  Very few horses have the ability to say 'Thank you',  or to be appreciative of being rescued.

Now consider the number of race track misfits.  They're in their thousands,  annually.  

Para 2. Far too many ex-racehorses are released on to the market place,  and with predictable results.  I'll say it again,  the responsible Owner considers the animal and its suitability for a 'pet' home,  and then should it be likely that it will live in a mud bath,  or as an ornament,  and be kept by someone better suited to the more stayed horse,  then there is a responsible action to be taken.  I've had a good few TBs over the years,  and every single flat bred AND raced mare,  has arrived with issues and some of them were serious.  I have never 'sold-on' any of these horses.  NOT so much because of the buyer,  but because of the life which the poor creature will have to endure.

Finally!! I don't like the situation any more than you do,  but attempting to offer wholesale rehabilitation,  will never work;  Those with suitable experience are limited,  and even when they've worked their miracles,  the market for their 'corrected' horses simply doesn't exist,  at least not for the number of race-course rejects which there are.  As with greyhounds,  once their racing days are over,  all so often the kindest thing to do for the animal is to put it down,  and again,  I don't like it any more than you do.

Alec.

ETS;  just found your last post;  'There are approximately 5000 horses coming out of training every year.'  You've just supported my post.  There aren't really the knowledgeable facilities for 10% of that number.


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## tess1 (15 April 2015)

Optimissteeq said:



			Hi tess,

Just a couple of points here - I actually agree that if owners, trainers and bookies etc were charged a small fee to support the charities then this might work. Your earlier posts seemed aimed soley at owners - hence my response.
Secondly - I am not pussy footing it around as you call it - I was not inferring you specifically with my comment - if you take the thread in it's entirety then there are quite a few emotional responses from both sides. I have not commented on the accuracy of the information shared.
However, your latest response to me does demonstrate that you are being emotional 

Click to expand...

You haven't read my posts clearly ... never have I put the sole responsibility onto owners, I have always talked about the racing industry overall, including the punters, ... the whole point is to take the responsibility off owners, as, unless they have an emotional attachment to the horse slaughter will almost inevitably be the outcome irrespective of the horse's temperament.  They should contribute financially, but in a way that is not personal - ie, contribute to a retirement fund via revenue collected through a percentage of trainer's fees, for eg,  but not be left to make the decision regarding the horse's future once his racing career is ended ... unless of course they want to.


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## tess1 (15 April 2015)

As with greyhounds, once their racing days are over, all so often the kindest thing to do for the animal is to put it down, and again, I don't like it any more than you do.


Seriously?  

OK.  Thanks for your clarification.  Although I am still confused as you start your reply with "of course not" and then tell me how pointless the whole exercise is.


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## Maesfen (15 April 2015)

Well said Alec.


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## Optimissteeq (15 April 2015)

tess1 said:



			@ Maesfen and Optimisteeq - I don't think I've ever said every horse was suitable for re-homing ... see my post above ... 

I am not twisting words ... I am trying to understand the line of thinking on this forum.  Here's what I am getting from various posts:

There is no need for the BHA and all that it encompasses (owners, trainers, bookies and punters) to take responsibility for the horses that the entire industry is built on, once they are retired, despite the fact that the racing industry is massively wealthy, and would not exist at all if it weren't for the horses.

It seems that many folk who work in racing have taken on horses, and either kept them themselves or retrained and re-homed them - which is brilliant ... but it should not, and cannot always be down to caring individuals to take responsibility for the welfare of these animals.  How many stable staff have felt despair at watching their charge go off to an uncertain future, or untimely death (or both) and not been able to do anything about it?  (Sorry if that is a bit 'emotive' for some of you).

According to some, charities are to blame, they are a money making concern, there's not much point in rehabbing horses, most of them aren't rehomable anyway as there aren't enough experienced homes around.

Some people have told me that RoR is a fantastic scheme - now there are changes to that scheme in the offing, but nobody can enlighten this thread as to whether those changes will be better or worse for horses - more money, more horses transitioned through a viable system, or less money, less horses through the system, and more chance of problems.

At no point have I ever said that OTTBs should be rehomed to inappropriate or inexperienced homes; all OTTBs are suitable for rehoming.  And yet almost every poster seems to bring that up without fail.  I think it must be the 'stand-by' clause now that we have moved the debate on from 'racing is bad but riding schools/coloured cobs/laminitis/numpty owners/fly grazing is worse'.

When people run out of arguments they just make personal attacks on me.  I have (I think) answered every question that people have put to me - if I have missed anyone out, I apologise.  When I ask for clarification I am told to 'read it again' or that I am 'twisting words'.  I have been accused of unsubstatiated twaddle but pretty much every point I've made I've backed up with reference to an article that quotes RoR, WHW, BHA.  The Chief Exec of RoR is on record as saying that the plight of race horses currently is akin to throwing your granny out on the street because she is too old, and owners and trainers have got to step up and take responsibility.  Because I've found these things out, and quoted them, with links, I've been accused of constructing an argument a politician could be proud of.  Talk about shooting the messenger.
		
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Ok Tess,
        as you have addressed me specifically, I will demonstrate why I think you were twisting words. 
Ester stated 'I think it kind of agrees with what I said earlier, that owners should be responsible and put those not suitable for the general public down and rehome those suitable for rehab and rehoming?
You replied with 'so am I right in thinking that you both think that the work done by RoR schemes and specialised TB charities is a waste of time as well? And therefore the most responsible thing that any owner can do, if a TB is anything other than the most placid (???) is to have it shot.

Where was it said the horse had to be the most placid? Also where was it said the charities were a waste of time? That is why I said you were twisting words.

You will also note that i have agreed with you on some points and it is only in later posts that you have expanded on your view point about making more people accountable and clarifying more the role charities such as RoR can play.

You may not have said that TB's should be re-homed inappropriately, but when people state not all can be-rehomed, you then seem to use this to say  people want horses shot when they say not all horses can be re-homed. As evidenced in the above quotes.

I don't thnik anyone is shooting the messenger, they are replying to your posts.

Could you please highlight the post that actually says there is no point in re-homing/re-habbing horses? I don't think I saw that specifically.


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## whiteroom (15 April 2015)

Honeylight said:



			I have already commented on a FB page about this.
A friend phoned me at the end of the race saying that the scenes had persuaded her to campaign against the race. She has no first hand knowledge of horses, unlike the posters on this site or on the Facebook page.
The scenes will have done much to reinforce some of the arguments of Peta and Animal Aid. Yes we know the horses are not whipped to exhaustion and know about whips having used them ourselves, casual once a year watchers maybe do not. Don't forget many, many people will watch to see how the horse they drew in a workplace sweepstake did and they will have seen the overheated winner staggering about. It was an ugly scene.
I really do think the "mike on a pole" should go, I am certain this held Leighton Aspell up in dismounting, prevented the horse being properly cooled and could have led to a tragedy, that would have been viewed by millions. I was screaming at the TV!
I also thought that Oliver Sherwood was very controlled when they prevented him going to the horse, I think I would have told them where to go!
I thought that the Channel 4 coverage was mainly poor. I don't think many people are that interested in fashion and it's hardly Royal Ascot. The coverage of the runners before the race was minimal and the parade only part shown; I never saw Many Clouds before the race. There were too many interviews and a real sense of the commentators getting in the way of pre race preparations.
		
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Thank you - the reason I posted in the first place!!  Less Gok, more time to see each horse, less time watching a horse struggle to recover which I felt was leading to  possible collapse then sensationalism.


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## Optimissteeq (15 April 2015)

tess1 said:



			You haven't read my posts clearly ... never have I put the sole responsibility onto owners, I have always talked about the racing industry overall, including the punters, ... the whole point is to take the responsibility off owners, as, unless they have an emotional attachment to the horse slaughter will almost inevitably be the outcome irrespective of the horse's temperament.  They should contribute financially, but in a way that is not personal - ie, contribute to a retirement fund via revenue collected through a percentage of trainer's fees, for eg,  but not be left to make the decision regarding the horse's future once his racing career is ended ... unless of course they want to.
		
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I was looking at post #313 for example where you quote 
So maybe the racing industry should look seriously at tightening up accountability of owners - ie, those that owned the horse at the time their racing career ended.
I now realise that I had the wrong quotes in my head - so apologies as this was not referring to funding retirement
I do note that you have also said others in your posts.

I am not sure this is getting us anywhere though - I agree with some of the things you have said and offered my opinion. I do not agree with your synopsis of the responses, I still believe some are taken out of context but that is my perogative


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## tess1 (15 April 2015)

'I think it kind of agrees with what I said earlier, that owners should be responsible and put those not suitable for the general public down and rehome those suitable for rehab and rehoming? 

I can't see any reference here to the role of charities/RoR etc.  It just seemed to be the owner's decision - end of.  A TB leaving the 'system' is likely to be 'quirky' for all but the most experienced - hence my 'placid (???) comment.  Given some time off to be a horse and gradually and carefully introduced to a less institutionalised way of life, changes can occur.  Then some retraining can begin and decisions made as to the kind of situation this horse would thrive best in.  For some horses pts will clearly be the kindest option, and that may well be obvious at the time they are ready to leave the yard ... but it is amazing what time and good handling can heal for a lot of horses.  But if the owner is soley responsible for the horse, and he is not likely to want to fund x months of rehab and retraining, then pts will be the default option for a lot of owners.  So your viewpoints seemed to not take into account the possibility of a 'safety net' for horses to be assessed objectively, just an owner's decision which will ultimately rest on willingness to financially commit to the horse once the horse's racing days are over, unless that horse is so well-balanced that he will transition easily from race yard to 'normal' life.

I really have no idea what role RoR has in racing now, or in the future, seeing it is in flux, and no one has clarified the repercussions for horses.  I'm interested to see the BHA calling for owners and trainers to take responsibility - as I have said previously I feel that should encompass the wider racing industry including bookies and punters.  I think, that without financial support though, the role of owner responsibility will be an increase in horses sent directly to slaughter - which may well relieve them of some suffering, but also negates any possibility of any kind of retirement. Contrary to popular belief on here an untimely and unnecessary death is not really a 'responsible' decision to my mind - but neither is sending that horse out into the world ill-prepared and with no safety net.  So the BHA are either genuinely determined to increase the financial support to help horses, or they just want to reduce their own support to these horses and are trying to pass the buck to owners/trainers, but have no intention of bringing in legislation to support it ...  

I am really astounded that you think I have been suggesting the whole way along that every horse can be saved.  I can only assume you have not read or remembered correctly what I have written.   I know how badly the racing industry damages horses - for some pts is by far the kindest thing.  I have said that, for example, in my reply to Alec - last night I think?  I do find it quite astonishing how accepting/apathetic people are of the level of damage a racing life can do to a horse, but that is for a whole other thread.

Alec seems to be the one saying that most horses cannot be rehabbed to the point where it is safe to rehome them.   Have a look at some of his past posts.

Personal attacks aren't really valid replies to posts though, are they?


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## Maesfen (15 April 2015)

tess1 said:



			I do find it quite astonishing how accepting/apathetic people are of the level of damage a racing life can do to a horse,
		
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I'm sorry but it's pointless for us to get hot under the collar about something it is not in our power to change because we are not the ones responsible for any racehorse and what goes on with it either in or out of racing; the owners and the trainers are.  They are the ones who can change things.


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## tess1 (15 April 2015)

Optimissteeq said:



			I was looking at post #313 for example where you quote 
So maybe the racing industry should look seriously at tightening up accountability of owners - ie, those that owned the horse at the time their racing career ended.
I now realise that I had the wrong quotes in my head - so apologies as this was not referring to funding retirement
I do note that you have also said others in your posts.

I am not sure this is getting us anywhere though - I agree with some of the things you have said and offered my opinion. I do not agree with your synopsis of the responses, I still believe some are taken out of context but that is my perogative 

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yes, I think that's the only post where I have referred to owners alone, and that was in response to someone else's comment.

I think everyone will have a different synopsis depending on their point of view.

I did notice that you were in agreement with a couple of points.

I don't think this ever gets anyone anywhere, but sometimes it's interesting to explore a topic and see where it goes, see what people really think, what they will defend. I've learnt a fair bit, both from other posters and my own research from this which is always useful.  Good way to pass the time for a few days when you are laid up with a badly sprained ankle and can't get about much.


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## tess1 (15 April 2015)

Maesfen said:



			I'm sorry but it's pointless for us to get hot under the collar about something it is not in our power to change because we are not the ones responsible for any racehorse and what goes on with it either in or out of racing; the owners and the trainers are.  They are the ones who can change things.
		
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Wow, I'm so glad not everyone in the world thinks like this about every topic.


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## ycbm (15 April 2015)

Maesfen said:



			I'm sorry but it's pointless for us to get hot under the collar about something it is not in our power to change because we are not the ones responsible for any racehorse and what goes on with it either in or out of racing; the owners and the trainers are.  They are the ones who can change things.
		
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Burglary is not stopped by burglars


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## popsdosh (15 April 2015)

I have watched this thread with interest including the way it has been hijacked to score political welfare points this discussion has nothing to do with the OPs point about the horse who won the grand national and who will eventually have a wonderful retirement at THs stud.
I think Tess you need to get real how many ex racehorses do you think can be successfully rehomed in homes where there future is assured,because the last thing I want is any of my horses at the end of their careers ending up with some of the numpties that get their hands on them., I think the percentage will be very small. However I do take responsibility for all the horses I breed and on occasion PTS is the correct choice even with horses that potentially can be rehomed.
Tess you seem very anti this approach with any horse apart from the nutters but surely it is the responsible approach,if the owner is not sure the horse will be looked after correctly.
I am sure Tess you will distort what I have said , I am not sure if you are deliberately doing it or are totally deluded on this quest.


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## Maesfen (15 April 2015)

You're being pernickety now. 

The reality is that until we are in charge of racing or connected to racing in some form or another, as owners or trainers, we, Joe Public, are not able to change a thing.   Over the years, I've learnt it is a waste of energy and angst to fret about the things I can't in any way shape or form, change to my ideal; when that situation changes, I'll be in line like the rest of us.


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## tess1 (15 April 2015)

not really my 'quest' though is it ... it's all about RoR ...

I think I've probably addressed all those points somewhere in the past 40 something pages ... inappropriate homes not the way forward etc etc ad nausem.  I also think I've addressed the 'responsible decision' argument clearly enough ... if you don't agree it's not a problem ... everyone is entitled to their opinion.

anyway, signing off now.  bbq tonight - no horse burgers though, much to Alec's disappointment, I am sure.

Thank you for the nice pms  

Have fun without me ...


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## Goldenstar (15 April 2015)

tess1 said:



			if owners were forced to pay for their retirement for the rest of their lives, then some owners would put the horse to sleep as a default option.

But that is not the same as saying "what if everyone were charged a little more".  I am not suggesting that an owner should fund a horse for the rest of his life after retirement ... I am saying that, if a revenue was gathered from owners, trainers, punters and bookies - then there would be a 'pot' that could fund each horse's retraining/retirement if they were assesed as being suitable.  The severely damaged ones that cannot cope outside the institutionalised environment of racing, then yes, sadly, there is only one option ... but lots of horses could be eased into an enjoyable retirement in various guises.  The involvement of bona fide charities, with appropriately experienced staff would ensure that each horse is given either the best retirement option, or, if at any stage it becomes clear they are not going to be safe to handle, a swift and humane end.  Homes could be checked and track kept of where horses are.  This must surely be better than the current option where the decision rests with the owners, and, if they have no attachment to the horse, shooting will be seen as the easiest (not, necessarily, to my mind) the most responsible choice.  To decide to have a horse shot is the most responsible choice if that horse is a danger to himself and possibly those that handle him outside a racing environment, and it is deemed that a process of retraining by experienced folk is not going to improve that situation.  Having a horse shot who could lead a useful and happy life after racing is not the most responsible choice, it's just the easiest one for a lot of owners who do not want to be bothered with worrying about their animals once their racing days are over.  With a decent system in place the owner would not even need to be involved in the decision making - unless they wanted to be.  What is so bad about the racing industry as a whole stepping up and taking responsibility for the fate these animals?

By the way ... if you want to call me over-emotional or under-informed go right ahead, don't pussy foot around by saying "this isn't addressed to anyone but ..." ... at least I haven't compared the plight of racehorses to dumping your granny in the street like the Chief Exec of RoR.
		
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The thing is I am more than capable of retraining any horse I choose to take on I don't what antyone tracking them inferring in any way with my decisions which is why I would never take one from a rehomeing charity .
When I decide to PTS a horse I don't want anyone else with a finger in the pie.
I don't want J's trainer ( who bred him as well ) taking any responsibility for him the horse has me to take responsibility for him now .


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## minesadouble (15 April 2015)

I think if this enormous thread proves one thing it is that there is no real answer to the surplus of horses coming out of training.
I would be very sad to see them all being PTS or sent to rehoming charities though as I would have never have had the pleasure of owning 3 of the most wonderful horses I have ever owned.
We bought our last ex-racehorse direct from the trainer 2 weeks after he had run his last race. We paid 1,000 for him, he is  beautifully  put together , clean legged and the most perfect extravagant straight mover. Had he been a  warmblood he would have been 3 times the price.
For those with knowledge, experience and the ability to confidently handle and ride these horses it is the perfect way to get a real quality athlete of an animal at a bargain price.
I really don't see a catch all to stop some ex racehorses ending up in the hands of unsuitable 'numpty' type owners. However, the same can be said of all horses unfortunately.


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## gunnergundog (15 April 2015)

I was born in Findon (Sussex), home of many a racehorse trainer and also home of many decent TBs.  I am in my sixties now and my life took me via the eventing route; in the early years (certainly up to the 90s)  I saw many ex-racehorses going into eventing, when of course, it was long format, and more blood was required and there was less emphasis on dressage.  

I am not saying that all of these horses became successful four star eventers....they did not!  Many fell by the wayside due to soundness issues primarily.  However, whilst eventing was long format and sponsorship was not as rife as it is today, many skilled horsemen were prepared/happy to consider a TB as a potential eventer.

Somewhat tongue in cheek, but with an element of sincerity behind it,  the laws of supply and demand will always determine 'price', so maybe those with issues about what currently happens to ex-racers should look at creating the demand for them by lobbying BE for a return to long format??


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## ester (15 April 2015)

I'd rather any money pots were spent on rehabilitation than retirement for the others (hence my PTS comment). I do think retirement for them would be a bit sentimental.


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## Honeylight (15 April 2015)

gunnergundog said:



			I was born in Findon (Sussex), home of many a racehorse trainer and also home of many decent TBs.  I am in my sixties now and my life took me via the eventing route; in the early years (certainly up to the 90s)  I saw many ex-racehorses going into eventing, when of course, it was long format, and more blood was required and there was less emphasis on dressage.  

I am not saying that all of these horses became successful four star eventers....they did not!  Many fell by the wayside due to soundness issues primarily.  However, whilst eventing was long format and sponsorship was not as rife as it is today, many skilled horsemen were prepared/happy to consider a TB as a potential eventer.

Somewhat tongue in cheek, but with an element of sincerity behind it,  the laws of supply and demand will always determine 'price', so maybe those with issues about what currently happens to ex-racers should look at creating the demand for them by lobbying BE for a return to long format??  

Click to expand...

Yes more TB's were reused in both eventing and show jumping prior to warm bloods and sport horses becoming so popular. It is a pity in my opinion that the TB is less used in horse sport.


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## LittleRooketRider (15 April 2015)

Honeylight said:



			Yes more TB's were reused in both eventing and show jumping prior to warm bloods and sport horses becoming so popular. It is a pity in my opinion that the TB is less used in horse sport.
		
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I do recall an instructor of mine saying that one of the reasons for introducing the short-format was because the warmbloods/non-TBs couldn't compete with the TBs on the long-format.


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## applecart14 (16 April 2015)

Maesfen said:



			I'm sorry but it's pointless for us to get hot under the collar about something it is not in our power to change because we are not the ones responsible for any racehorse and what goes on with it either in or out of racing; the owners and the trainers are.  They are the ones who can change things.
		
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I don't see it as pointless at all.  We could try and educate them though.

I personally am anti racing.  That is to say that I dislike racing and would not go to watch it myself, however I have had a flutter from time to time.  Maybe I am two faced. I have no real experience in the matter other than what I have heard first hand about ex racehorses from a physio friend of mine who deals with them on quite a large scale.  I know that racing a horse before its bones, joints and ligaments are fully formed is very likely to cause huge repercussions in the future and I know that many hundreds have been pts on our racetracks due to injuries that 'leisure horses' would not (on the whole be treated for) but obviously the cost of treating such an animal when it is very unlikely to ever race again is pointless to the racehorse trainer and the owner of the horse.  I say obviously, but in my mind it is not obviously.  I also think that a horse that is stabled for most of its life (up to 23 hours a day in some cases) is damaged phychologically, never mind the physical damage it may endure.  Just because a horse switches off after a few weeks and seems accepting of its confinement doesn't mean that it is happy.  The way horses switch off is key to their very survival.  It is a coping mechanism and nothing more, lets not pretend otherwise.

The damage to a horse from a single fall can be catastrophic, even if the horse manages to escape the gun.  A fall to any horse has the potential to cause problems for the rest of its life, and there are horses who have fallen and raced many times again.

How many of us would encourage our toddlers/young children to run a marathon?  Or to attend a fitness session down the gym? But what we are saying in my eyes is that it is okay for horses to do this because they are a) easily disposed of b) no one givens a damn anyway c) their lives are not really worth that much.

Totally shocking.


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## Orangehorse (16 April 2015)

Actually, I think that Joe Public has had quite a big influence on racehorse welfare, so to say "we can't do anything" is wrong.  Think of the reduction in severity of the Grand National for a start, then the use of the whip and the support of the Retraining Racehorse charities.  So there have been huge strides, and IMO it is a good thing (not 100% sure about the GN, but three years with no fatalities is good).

However, there is a limit.  As we unfortunately experience ourselves as horse owners, a horse can fatally damage itself at any time - in the field, the stable, in the stable yard, out for a hack or at a competition.  We ALL know people who have lost horses in awful ways, but they are private, not on the TV on a Saturday afternoon with thousands of people watching.

I suppose I would be considered callous, but in my mind a racehorse has a job to do and that is to run in races.  Hopefully the trainer will prepare it correctly and enter in the correct race, the jockey wants to win, but hopefully all of them have some care of their own and the horse's neck, and the owners want to see their horses run and do well.  The fact that some horses get injured in training or on the racecourse is unfortunate, but unless racing is simply banned I can't see an answer.  After all, even dressage trained event horses going round by themselves sometimes get it wrong and fall.

I think that racehorses horses are much better prepared for jump racing now, and I watch most Saturdays on TV and notice that there seem to be much fewer fallers.  Also many trainers do the breaking-in and early training with the thought that the horse might have a life after racing.


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## Tiddlypom (16 April 2015)

Oliver and Tarnya Sherwood have posted a lovely update, which has been shared on FB by one of the vet practices who had vets there on the day, and were seen tending to him after the race.

_We are overwhelmed by all of the kind messages and emails that weve received since Saturdays Crabbies Grand National win. It was a truly wonderful occasion and we are touched by everyones good wishes and are in the process of responding to everyone individually.

We would also like to thank all of the Aintree racecourse staff, in particular the team of vets who took such great care of Many Clouds after the race and also to applaud the unique cooling-off area which enabled him to recover so quickly. 

Many Clouds is in terrific form, enjoying his days in the field, and will be returning to Mr Hemmings stud for his holiday soon.

All our best wishes,
Oliver and Tarnya Sherwood_


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## LittleRooketRider (16 April 2015)

Tiddlypom said:



			Oliver and Tarnya Sherwood have posted a lovely update, which has been shared on FB by one of the vet practices who had vets there on the day, and were seen tending to him after the race.

_We are overwhelmed by all of the kind messages and emails that we&#8217;ve received since Saturdays Crabbie&#8217;s Grand National win. It was a truly wonderful occasion and we are touched by everyone&#8217;s good wishes and are in the process of responding to everyone individually.

We would also like to thank all of the Aintree racecourse staff, in particular the team of vets who took such great care of Many Clouds after the race and also to applaud the unique cooling-off area which enabled him to recover so quickly. 

Many Clouds is in terrific form, enjoying his days in the field, and will be returning to Mr Hemmings&#8217; stud for his holiday soon.

All our best wishes,
Oliver and Tarnya Sherwood_

Click to expand...

Thank you TP..lovely to hear.


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## Honeylight (17 April 2015)

On the subject of conditions, care and affection for racehorses, people might want to take a look at this: http://stable-life.blogspot.co.uk/
Newmarket trainer John Berry clearly loves horses and all animals and as shown in the pictures his horses, it is mainly a flat yard, get regular turn out and opportunity to express natural instincts.


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## Echo Bravo (18 April 2015)

Personally I think all horses should be pts, because owners, trainers, jockeys have no idea how they the horses should be A)Be  looked after B) Ridden C) Treated, according to several posters on here and that is why H/H Forum is going down rapidly and we have the Anti's spouting garbage as usual. Oliver Sherwood said on the Channel 4 that the Aintree stewards were told about Many Clouds may have problems as other trainers have told them about their horses problems. These Antis are just bigoted people and I for one disregard anything they say. Can I come and pts their horses for them as they seem to want them living in Hell not allowed to to do anything that might make them break into a sweat. No horses No Problem dont you agree


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## Beausmate (19 April 2015)

Does anyone know how Balthazar King is doing now?


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## Exploding Chestnuts (19 April 2015)

He' s walking about, strapped up ribs [4 cracked along the top], looks fine.


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## Aoibhinn (19 April 2015)

Orangehorse said:



			However, there is a limit.  As we unfortunately experience ourselves as horse owners, a horse can fatally damage itself at any time - in the field, the stable, in the stable yard, out for a hack or at a competition.  We ALL know people who have lost horses in awful ways, but they are private, not on the TV on a Saturday afternoon with thousands of people watching.

I suppose I would be considered callous, but in my mind a racehorse has a job to do and that is to run in races.  Hopefully the trainer will prepare it correctly and enter in the correct race, the jockey wants to win, but hopefully all of them have some care of their own and the horse's neck, and the owners want to see their horses run and do well.  The fact that some horses get injured in training or on the racecourse is unfortunate, but unless racing is simply banned I can't see an answer.  After all, even dressage trained event horses going round by themselves sometimes get it wrong and fall.
		
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I 100% agree with this. No owner, trainer, jockey or stable lad/pass wants to see their horse come back injured, or worse, not come back at all.


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## 3OldPonies (20 April 2015)

Moomin1 said:



			I'm really quite shocked to read so many comments on this thread condoning a horse overheating simply because 'that's what it does often'.  That doesn't make it acceptable.  If that horse has an issue with overheating then IMO it should not be racing in the National for starters..
		
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I agree totally with this. 

However, I do think it was great that C4 showed what was being done to cool and care for Many Clouds. And I thought the footage earlier in the afternoon showing the jockey who fell in the fence asking after, looking for and caring for the horse he came off did the industry a great deal of good. 


Those daft interviews immediately the horse has slowed to a walk need doing away with, I've thought that for ages, and not just on this occasion.


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## lannerch (22 April 2015)

Maesfen said:



			I want a like Alec button for ^^ that reply.
		
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So do I !


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## lannerch (22 April 2015)

Having now read most of the posts ( I skimmed some of the rants) . To all those against racing I think it is not too broad a statement to say nearly all well cared for horses benefit from the industry !
It is the main and majority finance behind research be it veterinary , nutrition , husbandry, the sports horse of today. Etc etc

I agree rehoming is a problem, and even if every horse was suitable there just wouldn't be enough suitable homes. Several here speak a lot of sense , and no surprise it's coming from those actually involved with the industry.

Finally for all those bunny hugging types that think many clouds should never run again because he overheated, did you not ever watch Athletics , especially the marathons, it happens to people to, they push themselves to the limit. Should they all retire to?


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## Tiddlypom (22 April 2015)

lannerch said:



			Finally for all those bunny hugging types that think many clouds should never run again because he overheated, did you not ever watch Athletics , especially the marathons, it happens to people to, they push themselves to the limit. Should they all retire to?
		
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'Bunny huggers'. How patronising. Do you not realise how you instantly devalue your point of view by dropping in such a petty little put-down?

Several HHOers with first hand knowledge of racing have made very helpful and considered contributions to this thread, and I thank them for that. IMHO, it has largely been an interesting and educational read.


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## ycbm (22 April 2015)

lannerch said:



			Finally for all those bunny hugging types that think many clouds should never run again because he overheated, did you not ever watch Athletics , especially the marathons, it happens to people to, they push themselves to the limit. Should they all retire to?
		
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I defend every human being's right to risk their own lives in any way that they choose.

How that compares with a human choosing to put an animal at risk escapes me. 

If it was a child, would you agree with it?


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## lannerch (23 April 2015)

ycbm said:



			I defend every human being's right to risk their own lives in any way that they choose.

How that compares with a human choosing to put an animal at risk escapes me. 

If it was a child, would you agree with it?
		
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the horse not the human over exherted  itself well maybe the human as well. What has that to do with a child I do not know.

I choose to put my horses life at risk to, I event him , well I would if he had not damaged himself in the field, and yes I choose to risk his life by turning him out as well!

I'm not going to Continue debating on horse racing others who are associated or in the industry have put their case across far better than I ever could. 
If you don't like it don't support it or watch it.
And I have no problem with that


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## ycbm (23 April 2015)

lannerch said:



			the horse not the human over exherted  itself well maybe the human as well. What has that to do with a child I do not know.

I choose to put my horses life at risk to, I event him , well I would if he had not damaged himself in the field, and yes I choose to risk his life by turning him out as well!

I'm not going to Continue debating on horse racing others who are associated or in the industry have put their case across far better than I ever could. 
If you don't like it don't support it or watch it.
And I have no problem with that
		
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You have misunderstood me I think. I wasn't  referring to risk in general or making any comment on racing in general, which is a huge and valuable industry. 

I was replying to your specific post about choosing to run a horse which almost collapses from heat exhaustion in the most demanding race in the UK racing calendar.  If you would event your horse even if he repeatedly almost collapses at the end of the cross country, then I honestly believe you would be reported.


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## Alec Swan (24 April 2015)

ycbm said:



			&#8230;&#8230;.. about choosing to run a horse which almost collapses from heat exhaustion in the most demanding race in the UK racing calendar.  If you would event your horse even if he repeatedly almost collapses at the end of the cross country, then I honestly believe you would be reported.
		
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^^^^ undeniably so,  and it would be right in my view that a committee decision would be the likely outcome.  That said,  we've all seen horses finish a cross country course in an exhausted state and some little better than Many Clouds,  but whether it's the animal's fitness level or their individual metabolism,  I'm never too sure!

There's an implied risk with putting any horse in the National,  or round any Event course,  but that isn't the question,  as I see it;  rather the question is should an animal which displays such obvious distress be put through such an ordeal?  That's a question for each and every owner.  Personally,  I wouldn't,  but as others have said,  it's each to their own views! 

Alec.


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## Smurf's Gran (24 April 2015)

Tiddlypom said:



			'Bunny huggers'. How patronising. Do you not realise how you instantly devalue your point of view by dropping in such a petty little put-down?

Several HHOers with first hand knowledge of racing have made very helpful and considered contributions to this thread, and I thank them for that. IMHO, it has largely been an interesting and educational read.
		
Click to expand...


agree


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## Smurf's Gran (24 April 2015)

lannerch said:



			Having now read most of the posts ( I skimmed some of the rants) . To all those against racing I think it is not too broad a statement to say nearly all well cared for horses benefit from the industry !
It is the main and majority finance behind research be it veterinary , nutrition , husbandry, the sports horse of today. Etc etc

I agree rehoming is a problem, and even if every horse was suitable there just wouldn't be enough suitable homes. Several here speak a lot of sense , and no surprise it's coming from those actually involved with the industry.

Finally for all those bunny hugging types that think many clouds should never run again because he overheated, did you not ever watch Athletics , especially the marathons, it happens to people to, they push themselves to the limit. Should they all retire to?
		
Click to expand...

I was reading your post with interest until you started with the insults.  Couldn't agree with TP more really.


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## fburton (24 April 2015)

Agree that insults are totally unnecessary and counterproductive.


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## Goldenstar (24 April 2015)

Smurf's Gran said:



			agree
		
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Me too , I am no bunny hugger comments like that just show a blinkered we know best attitude .
You don't have to be involved with racing to have a valid POV .


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## Alec Swan (24 April 2015)

fburton said:



			Agree that insults are totally unnecessary and counterproductive.
		
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Possibly so,  but having read most of the posts,  from the poster in question,  I'd say that I'm in agreement with Her/Him.  Sometimes,  when those who speak from experience are contradicted by those who whilst lacking experience,  none the less offer theory as fact,  then it can become a little frustrating.  Failing to contradict nonsense,  only serves to support the nonsensical.  Frustration can often promote a sharp tongue!

Alec.


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## Smurf's Gran (24 April 2015)

I love racing, and have always watched the GN with a mixture of excitement, pride for the horses and concern for when they fall.   The GN horses are my heroes, and the race is part of our history.  I also love Cheltenham too (more than the GN probably as this is where the true quality is)

However, some of the comments on this thread have been unnecessary, and it has not escaped my notice that those who are questioning racing and have concerns re the horses, have addressed the argument politely, and the vast majority of name calling and insults have come from those in favour of racing.

I suppose that would leave people to draw their own conclusions on this apparent fact (I also acknowledge that many pro racing have been polite in their responses also, with great information shared) 

I find it sad that there cannot be an adult debate without particular factions becoming aggressive in tone and insulting.


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## Exploding Chestnuts (24 April 2015)

applecart14 said:



			But what we are saying in my eyes is that it is okay for horses to do this because they are a) easily disposed of b) no one givens a damn anyway c) their lives are not really worth that much.

Totally shocking.
		
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The only person who is saying this is you, others take  more measured approach. 
You would think that all other horses are kept in nice fields by knowledgeable owners and tended by good vets. Frankly what I find shocking is how little knowledge horse owners have when they buy one. We regularly see people on here claiming to love their horse, but keeping it in a stable 23/7, they are asking for diagnoses of lameness, apparently they can't afford a vet!  The general standard of riding is very poor.  This is not Utopia, it is real life.
Not all horses in racing are backed at two, not all are shot after their racing life is over.
Are you a vegan, because there are plenty of issues in animal welfare which are more contentious imho.


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## Smurf's Gran (24 April 2015)

Bonkers2 said:



			The only person who is saying this is you, others take  more measured approach. 
You would think that all other horses are kept in nice fields by knowledgeable owners and tended by good vets. Frankly what I find shocking is how little knowledge horse owners have when they buy one. We regularly see people on here claiming to love their horse, but keeping it in a stable 23/7, they are asking for diagnoses of lameness, apparently they can't afford a vet!  The general standard of riding is very poor.  This is not Utopia, it is real life.
Not all horses in racing are backed at two, not all are shot after their racing life is over.
Are you a vegan, because there are plenty of issues in animal welfare which are more contentious imho.
		
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What has being a vegan got to do with this point of view ??  There is not a sliding scale of welfare issues with posters not allowed to comment unless they start at what some may consider to be the most serious ?

The posters dietary preferences are not relevant here at all, and I don't believe food preferences were mentioned or introduced previously


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## lannerch (24 April 2015)

Thank You Alec and may I apologise to all for using the expression bunny hugging I really was not aware it was so bad, and posted it in humour , completely aware that my signiture on a computer is of bunnys hopping around.
I to have and often am a bunny hugger , I love all animals is that really so bad? 
Sorry to those I offended.


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## Exploding Chestnuts (24 April 2015)

Smurf's Gran said:



			What has being a vegan got to do with this point of view ??  There is not a sliding scale of welfare issues with posters not allowed to comment unless they start at what some may consider to be the most serious ?

The posters dietary preferences are not relevant here at all, and I don't believe food preferences were mentioned or introduced previously
		
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Well I think they are relevant, anyone who takes an extreme stance on a legal and well regulated industry [racing] on animal welfare issues, needs to look at the whole of the animal industry, and if they were to do so they might be more realistic. Life is not perfect, it never will be, I don't think I will go to many NH meetings because I can't take the risk of seeing any serious injuries, but in flat racing there are fewer serious injuries on the track. I love horses and hate to see them abused, but I don't see racing as an industry as abusive. I worked in racing for years, I would not have done so if I thought the horses were being treated cruelly. Yes it would be great if flat horses started racing at three, but this is not going to happen.
The welfare concerns and regulations for horses in UK racing [and their enforcement] far exceeds that for other animals.


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## Mike007 (16 May 2015)

Bunneyhuggers  ! Offensive! OK . So lets use the term "Stills". For those not as old as me ,after the Falklands war ,the inhabititants of the falkland isles were refered to as "Bennies"After a character on the series crossroads. The Senior officers said this was unacceptable so the troops stopped using the term Bennies and started using the term "stills" Ie they are still Bennies.


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## Tiddlypom (31 May 2015)

Just seen that Balthazar King is finally home, after spending 7 weeks at Leahurst recovering from the injuries he suffered in the GN. 

http://www.racingpost.com/news/hors...1887059/latest/#newsArchiveTabs=last7DaysNews

Lovely to see him back home, that was a long stay. He is described as being 'perky but weak'.


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## SpringArising (31 May 2015)

ycbm said:



			I defend every human being's right to risk their own lives in any way that they choose.
		
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Tiddlypom said:



			'Bunny huggers'. How patronising. Do you not realise how you instantly devalue your point of view by dropping in such a petty little put-down?
		
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Agree. 

And a human has a choice, a horse does not.

I fail to see how caring makes any of us a bunny-hugger. What a generic and ignorant comment.


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## Starbuck (31 May 2015)

Tiddlypom said:



			Just seen that Balthazar King is finally home, after spending 7 weeks at Leahurst recovering from the injuries he suffered in the GN. 

http://www.racingpost.com/news/hors...1887059/latest/#newsArchiveTabs=last7DaysNews

Well that is really good news. Wishing him a good recovery to full health.
		
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## lannerch (5 June 2015)

Generic maybe ignorant not!
I still can't see how it is offensive, but have apologised for those that really found it so. 

I care to, so with that definition I am a bunny hugger , a bunny hugger that supports the national.

And I suspect we all care whether we are for or against , that's the nature of this forum, we all love at least horses. 

Perhaps you don't read this forum on a computer, so you miss the humour of the comment with the irony of my signiture, bunnys hopping around! 

And I find some comments on here from whiter than white posters far more patronising than bunny hugging could ever be.

Back to subject , I agree totally lovely to see baltazars  king , so well and now expected to make a full recovery, although I watch with interest whether he races again.


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## Exploding Chestnuts (5 June 2015)

I think he took a very long time to recover, so probably a quiet life beckons.


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