# Golden button challenge



## avthechav (14 February 2015)

Did anyone go today? I'm not sure I could, although I'm sure that it is very exciting to watch.  Is there any qualification for entering?


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## MileAMinute (14 February 2015)

Someone I know entered today and went clear. Apparently 4 horses died. Sounds horrific.


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## {97702} (14 February 2015)

Every report I have read says it was absolute carnage - I wouldnt ever go again after seeing a horse break its back in the first running of the race.  Accidents happen with horses, I fully realise that, but the time it took for the vet to get to the horse was unacceptable


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## popsdosh (14 February 2015)

avthechav said:



			Did anyone go today? I'm not sure I could, although I'm sure that it is very exciting to watch.  Is there any qualification for entering?
		
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Yes being a total loon!!!!


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## avthechav (14 February 2015)

....so basically it's like the grand national without having to have professionally trained horses and professionals on board then, hmmm defo not for me!


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## {97702} (14 February 2015)

avthechav said:



			....so basically it's like the grand national without having to have professionally trained horses and professionals on board then, hmmm defo not for me!
		
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Oh and 60 starters not 40....


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## milliepops (14 February 2015)

Crikey.  Had considered going along to watch but I'm glad we had barbed wire to rip out now


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## Moomin1 (14 February 2015)

Just awful.  These people mustn't have a huge amount of care for their horses.


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## nuttychestnut (14 February 2015)

I went today, I must say I really enjoyed it. Would I take my own across the ground, yes but only in walk. 
Very well organised but very sad to hear 3/4 horses lost their lives today and one rider was air lifted to hospital. 
As the event was run by the hunt the horses didn't have long to wait. 
My thoughts go out to those who lost their horse today, but at least they went doing something they loved.


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## toddthesod (14 February 2015)

I went today to support a friend who was competing. We had a great view & could see most of the course. I enjoyed it as far as my friends horse came home very well but a poor horse dropped dead infront of us in a busy area near the end and the horse ambulance took ages to arrive before they put the screens up. Not an image I want to see. This upset me and we swiftly left...would I go again? No


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## Fools Motto (14 February 2015)

Hat cam footage  (nothing bad visable)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nFfS6kDzeoo


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## Moomin1 (14 February 2015)

nuttychestnut said:



			I went today, I must say I really enjoyed it. Would I take my own across the ground, yes but only in walk. 
Very well organised but very sad to hear 3/4 horses lost their lives today and one rider was air lifted to hospital. 
As the event was run by the hunt the horses didn't have long to wait. 
My thoughts go out to those who lost their horse today, but at least they went doing something they loved.
		
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How do we know whether they loved it or not?


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## toddthesod (14 February 2015)

I did hear it was 5 horses that lost their lives.... It wasn't good watching the stragglers at the end dodging the dead horse in full view......&#128544;


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## Hoof_Prints (14 February 2015)

So sad for the ones that lost their lives. The thought of the exhausted stragglers at the end makes me feel just as sad , shame on the people who raced horses that were not fit enough. Well done to those who did take fit and competent horses and extra well done if they made it round, very unfortunate for those who suffered falls. I read that the airlifted rider was fine and went home with bruised ribs. There is a video here of a fence with a lot of falls, started counting but there are so many horses you can't see, https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10203777906348264&pnref=story


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## popsdosh (14 February 2015)

Moomin1 said:



			How do we know whether they loved it or not?
		
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Try getting 500kg horses around that if they dont. If you wish to balance it up how many horses died today because they were neglected,starving or just nobody wanted them anymore I suspect many more than those in the Golden button..
I am not trying to defend them for losing that number and I suspect they will need to look more closely at it for another year but this is about the pinnacle of hunt racing and it is not for the feint hearted.


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## Moomin1 (15 February 2015)

popsdosh said:



			Try getting 500kg horses around that if they dont. If you wish to balance it up how many horses died today because they were neglected,starving or just nobody wanted them anymore I suspect many more than those in the Golden button..
I am not trying to defend them for losing that number and I suspect they will need to look more closely at it for another year but this is about the pinnacle of hunt racing and it is not for the feint hearted.
		
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How on earth does the fact that the horses went around it, mean that they 'love' it?  What a ridiculous thing to say.  That's akin to saying that if a kid goes to school, then they must love it.  It's more to do with compliance and conditioning...


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## JustKickOn (15 February 2015)

The video in Fools Motto's post shows the grey horse getting a fair few cracks to go over the fences, for pretty much every fence we see. Why are there such a ridiculous number of starters!?


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## popsdosh (15 February 2015)

Moomin1 said:



			How on earth does the fact that the horses went around it, mean that they 'love' it?  What a ridiculous thing to say.  That's akin to saying that if a kid goes to school, then they must love it.  It's more to do with compliance and conditioning...
		
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Yes I suppose they were all beaten with whips and spurred. Get real ! You know most of the riders I doubt had to push their horses on at all probably had more issues holding them at least in the early part of the race.


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## popsdosh (15 February 2015)

JustKickOn said:



			The video in Fools Motto's post shows the grey horse getting a fair few cracks to go over the fences, for pretty much every fence we see. Why are there such a ridiculous number of starters!?
		
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A lot of riders want to do it !! it is not like a horse race on a track you mainly take your own line


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## Moomin1 (15 February 2015)

popsdosh said:



			Yes I suppose they were all beaten with whips and spurred. Get real ! You know most of the riders I doubt had to push their horses on at all probably had more issues holding them at least in the early part of the race.
		
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Are you for real? So you think if you don't beat and whip a horse, but they go around a course/hunt etc that the must 'love' it?  As opposed to simply complying and being conditioned/trained to listen to a rider and do as they ask?  Really?  

Of course I have no doubt some horses enjoy it. But to say that all horses go around these things out of love and enjoyment is ridiculous.


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## MadJ (15 February 2015)

Whether they loved it or not, to see that several horses died makes uncomfortable reading for me.


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## popsdosh (15 February 2015)

I agree there are some that will not have enjoyed it but you dont really know that until they are faced with a course like that and then its down to rider resonsibility to know when to call it a day.I have yet to have a horse that has not enjoyed hunting from a personal view, if I thought they didnt I would not take them as my neck is on the line.


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## nuttychestnut (15 February 2015)

Ok I don't know if the horses loved it, but I didn't see any napping or not galloping around. The horses I did see refusing the fence the rider tried to jump it twice then went around it. 
It's very sad that those horses lost their lives but as it hasn't been stated how they died we cannot blame it on the race/owner/etc. All I can hope for it they run it a little later in the year as that would make the ground a little less sticky. 
At the end of the day no one was forced to ride their horse. 30 people or so decided to withdraw. When something like this happens no one is going to agree completely but hopefully the event H&S will be looked at.


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## marmalade76 (15 February 2015)

I was there and AFAIA it was three horses that died, one at fence 15 and two at the finish. If the two at the finish collapsed 'cause they weren't fit enough/pushed too hard it was not the fault of the organisers. I was told the person who was airlifted had been kicked in the collecting ring after the race and as that was where he/she was lying on the ground being treated by the first aiders I doubt he/she had been hurt on course.

This is something I would have been totally up for in  my younger days, but it started the year I was pregnant and I'd already sold my ace xc horse. I stood by fence 2 (which dropped downhill on landing) as they went over and it _was_ carnage and I thought it was just as well I'm past it now! But it looks great from the headcam angle so I might just be tempted in future if I have the right horse. With a fit horse that's a safe jumper while keeping yourself out of trouble it would be great!


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## marmalade76 (15 February 2015)

Hoof_Prints said:



			So sad for the ones that lost their lives. The thought of the exhausted stragglers at the end makes me feel just as sad , shame on the people who raced horses that were not fit enough. Well done to those who did take fit and competent horses and extra well done if they made it round, very unfortunate for those who suffered falls. I read that the airlifted rider was fine and went home with bruised ribs. There is a video here of a fence with a lot of falls, started counting but there are so many horses you can't see, https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10203777906348264&pnref=story

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That was fence 2 and had the most casualties as far as I could see.


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## amage (15 February 2015)

It is a huge assumption to make that those horses that died were not fit enough. Certainly looking at the facebook page one of those that sadly had a heart attack and died after finishing was very fit looking and his owner/rider (a previous poster on here) has evented to a high level and is a licensed jockey so most definitely knows how to prep a horse correctly. She posted a lovely pic of him being washed off with his ears pricked after completing the course. Minutes later he had a heart attack. Sadly where you have livestock you have deadstock


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## marmalade76 (15 February 2015)

I thought it was her. 

And my comment did include 'IF'.


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## {97702} (15 February 2015)

nuttychestnut said:



			As the event was run by the hunt the horses didn't have long to wait.
		
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Nice to hear that they have got that bit sorted out at least


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## Cortez (15 February 2015)

So, 3 (or 4, or 5) horses died, and that's OK because they "loved" it? I can think of no sport other than equine ones (that is, with a partner which has no say in the matter) that regularly has fatal casualties (well, in the Western world anyway).


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## popsdosh (15 February 2015)

Sadly it true about livestock and deadstock  It can all be so blown out of proportion by comments ie at the beginning of this thread ,many by posters who clearly did not have a clue what it was all about.
Accidents happen , horses have heart attacks nobody goes out there expecting it or abusing horses into doing it.


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## DollyPentreath (15 February 2015)

Much preferred watching the chestnut to the grey on the Youtube video. 

Going looks horrendous in places but I don't hunt anymore so I guess I'm soft! This is something I would've loved 10 years ago but now; not a chance. No way would I risk my horses (or myself). Just keeping them sound eventing is challenge enough. Would I go and watch? Probably not..


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## twiggy2 (15 February 2015)

popsdosh said:



			Yes I suppose they were all beaten with whips and spurred. Get real ! You know most of the riders I doubt had to push their horses on at all probably had more issues holding them at least in the early part of the race.
		
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possibly has more to do with the herd mentality, if everyone runs there must be a reason and the only way to stay safe is to run with them


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## ester (15 February 2015)

I'm not sure what I think, and heart attacks are a complicated one. 

The recorded number (granted possibly higher) of deaths in the omak suicide race (down a 62 degree hill then into a river in washington state) is 23 over the last 25 years.- they have numerous heats then a final so fewer horses that run more times. Arguably I find that race a lot more shocking and painful to watch but from that maybe it isn't any worse. Given it was run on Longdon 'marsh' it presumably could be predicted to be deep going??


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## only_me (15 February 2015)

One horse died of a heart attack at the finish - that horse was a hugely experienced eventer and a seasoned hunter. He died doing what he loved and the horse was expertly prepared for the race and the rider was very very experienced. A tragic event, but no ones fault. Plus, if any horses did break legs etc. they can just as easily break a leg in a field on turnout or in an arena etc. 

I would love to do that race - it looks awesome!

And tbh, as much as I love horses, I am much more saddened by the death of an eventer yesterday during cross-country at an event in Spain


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## ester (15 February 2015)

only_me said:



			Plus, if any horses did break legs etc. they can just as easily break a leg in a field on turnout or in an arena etc.
		
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Do you think that is actually true, just as easily? they might but I should think racing in general makes it statistically more likely!


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## only_me (15 February 2015)

ester said:



			Do you think that is actually true, just as easily? they might but I should think racing in general makes it statistically more likely!
		
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Yes, I do. A horse could be galloping down a hill in their field, slip, fall and break their leg. A horse could be kicked by another standing at the gate in the field. A horse could get caught up in tape, panic and break it's leg. It may Happen less often than in racing but could happen just as easily - accidents happen.


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## marmalade76 (15 February 2015)

Yes, someone local to me lost his lovely horse through a kick in the field only last week 



Keep having to edit 'cause my keyboard appears to only be producing half the letters I press


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## ester (15 February 2015)

I guess I was taking the statistical view of just as easily. ie statistically less likely (ie as you said happens less often) does not mean just as easily to me because the risk is higher.


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## popsdosh (15 February 2015)

ester said:



			I guess I was taking the statistical view of just as easily. ie statistically less likely (ie as you said happens less often) does not mean just as easily to me because the risk is higher.
		
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I would disagree about the risk being higher. You hear about incidents like this as it a high profile event ,you dont here about the common things that happen at home because they are not seen as worth the publicity.


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## only_me (15 February 2015)

The rider  (previously known as WorMy on HHO) whose horse died of a heart attack at the race yesterday has contacted me and asked me to post this on her behalf:

"Just want to say a to a huge thank you to the Ledbury hunt for organising the Golden Button today - it was a huge task and immensely well executed. With events like the button there will always be risks but everyone involved knows that and it comes with the game. No different to eventing or racing or show jumping or any other equine pursuit. 

I had a fantastic ride around on my superstar ex advanced eventer - he flew everything and loved every second. No one can doubt his fitness as he probably finished more full of running than any other horse there that day - you should have seen him gallop up the last hill and wing the final fence - I couldnt pull him up!!!! But as some of you are aware I sadly lost my superstar Georgie from a heart attack 5 or so minutes after he completed the course...but these things happen - if your times up your times up - and in my opinion no better way to go - he was an old boy and had a great life and I'm delighted he went out on a high doing what he loved.
 As you can see from the following pics ( https://fbcdn-sphotos-c-a.akamaihd...._=1435499303_55c761f4cc32e3a4e58a586e51586843 ) he absolutely loved the game and was smiling with pricked ears posing for the camera literally seconds before he passed away.

The ledbury hunt dealt with the situation as quickly and professionally as they could in the circumstances and we could not be more grateful and I hope that you will all join me in raising a glass tonight to the most outstanding horse and character I've ever had the pleasure of knowing. My one and only Georgiepone &#10084;"







WorMy.


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## Rapidash (15 February 2015)

This is shocking! You can try and weasel around it by saying worse things happen to other horses but this is easily on a par with that endurance horse with two broken legs. I don't know how we can criticise the uae after this. 

"Oh they loved it". I love driving fast in my car- doesn't mean I should! 

" oh they knew the risks" they obviously have no judgement! Who cares about the cost eh- plenty of other horses. 

What a shameful episode in British equestrian sport. 

And how dare people try and brush it off as just one of those things oh you can break a leg in the field you know. Truly indefensible that a bunch of ill disciplined hooray Henrys can do that to their beasts. And don't tell me they're professional eventers as though that makes it OK. 

I actually feel ashamed.


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## minesadouble (15 February 2015)

Thanks for posting the above. He certainly looks a happy horse, it's always sad to lose them, no matter what the circumstances. It sounds as though he had a lovely life and went out on a high. Commiserations to his owner who I am sure cared about him very much!
Edited to add by 'above' I mean only me's post - not the subsequent tosh.


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## Doormouse (15 February 2015)

Rapidash said:



			This is shocking! You can try and weasel around it by saying worse things happen to other horses but this is easily on a par with that endurance horse with two broken legs. I don't know how we can criticise the uae after this. 

"Oh they loved it". I love driving fast in my car- doesn't mean I should! 

" oh they knew the risks" they obviously have no judgement! Who cares about the cost eh- plenty of other horses. 

What a shameful episode in British equestrian sport. 

And how dare people try and brush it off as just one of those things oh you can break a leg in the field you know. Truly indefensible that a bunch of ill disciplined hooray Henrys can do that to their beasts. And don't tell me they're professional eventers as though that makes it OK. 

I actually feel ashamed.
		
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Glad to see you aren't bringing any inverted snobbery into this discussion about horses welfare!


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## Rapidash (15 February 2015)

Doormouse said:



			Glad to see you aren't bringing any inverted snobbery into this discussion about horses welfare!
		
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What inverted snobbery? How is it snobbish to disapprove of an event that four horses die in? Do you really think that's OK, because it was a fun event?


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## only_me (15 February 2015)

Rapidash said:



			This is shocking! You can try and weasel around it by saying worse things happen to other horses but this is easily on a par with that endurance horse with two broken legs. I don't know how we can criticise the uae after this. 

"Oh they loved it". I love driving fast in my car- doesn't mean I should! 

" oh they knew the risks" they obviously have no judgement! Who cares about the cost eh- plenty of other horses. 

What a shameful episode in British equestrian sport. 

And how dare people try and brush it off as just one of those things oh you can break a leg in the field you know. Truly indefensible that a bunch of ill disciplined hooray Henrys can do that to their beasts. And don't tell me they're professional eventers as though that makes it OK. 

I actually feel ashamed.
		
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What a load of bull!!


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## twiggy2 (15 February 2015)

Accidents can and do happen, heart attack can and does take anyone at any time. the risk of serious injury is increased with and increase in speed and fatigue. obviously fitness and preparation reduces this to some extent. poor going increases exertion to a huge extent (ever tried running across a ploughed field?).

the event is obviously setup to test both horse and rider and we all have our limits as to what we view as a fair/reasonable test, for me an event in which so many fall or are injured (I am not counting the heart attack as that could happen any time) is a test too far. would I feel happier if there was an entry standard?possibly as in all likely hood it would reduce falls/injuries and deaths.Would I gallop over that sort of ground? No I value myself and any horse I am riding too greatly to do that, but I do hack on the roads a few times per week and many riders don't as they feel it is not safe to do so...


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## woodlandswow (15 February 2015)

Poor WorMy.. such a lovely horse but these things do happen.. its like the grand national, everyone has for an against arguments for that, its just horse sports.
Does anyone know how the infamous girl who rides a chestnut sidesaddle got on?


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## avthechav (15 February 2015)

woodlandswow said:



			Poor WorMy.. such a lovely horse but these things do happen.. its like the grand national, everyone has for an against arguments for that, its just horse sports.
Does anyone know how the infamous girl who rides a chestnut sidesaddle got on?
		
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I really feel for wormy and send her my heartfelt condolences. 

I started this thread as I had read some stuff on fb about the GBC and wanted to know more....am well aware that fb isn't the umm well most balanced of accounts! I think the thing that jumps out at me on this is that there is no qualifying criteria....it seems that there are a proportion of starters who like Wormy, are professionals and are fully aware of the dangers, and have prepared both themselves and their horses properly....afterall it sounds a bit more hardcore than something like the tim carter challenge for instance.  These riders are more than capable of keeping themselves and others out of danger and will have horses that are fit enough to compete.  If something tragic happens to one of these riders, it is still awful obviously but I feel it is more like a professional racing situation- all are prepared and sometimes your luck is just up! (Happens to good horses eventing too).  I worry about the fact that any old person with a few guts and a horse that they have jumped a few hedges on can take part. I know someone on fb who seemed super keen on taking part (maybe just talk) and knowing this person well, it certainly wouldn't have been a safe thing for her to do, and I think it's these people who endanger others too.....I think with my limited knowledge I would like to see qualifying criteria.

Also on another note, I echo what someone else says about being very saddened to hear about the eventer who lost their life yesterday too.


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## ester (15 February 2015)

The second fence certainly did seem to create a lot of loose horses.


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## RachelFerd (15 February 2015)

I think it's one of those things... if you are someone who is really into your hunting you love this kind of stuff.

If you aren't... you look at it and think it's pretty brutal. 

I'm in the latter camp - and as someone that works in racing and has ridden point to point, but has fallen out of love with 'amateur racing'!

Don't forget that not only have quite a few horses lost their lives, plenty will be broken down after the days events too... there is something about a certain part of the hunting fraternity who consider their horses to be a means to an end which doesn't lie easy with me...


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## gunnergundog (15 February 2015)

I was there as a spectator and know some of the people involved in the organisation.  Just to address a couple of points raised above, in no particular order:

1.  Size of field......the field was actually smaller than what you could expect on a Saturday meet of any of the 'top' Shires packs, and on a good day the action was little different.
2.  No qualification criteria for entry......there is no criteria for entry when hunting with the Ledbury (over whose land the event ran), or any other hunt for that matter.  Common sense is what prevails out hunting and also, I believe, here when you look at the numbers that withdrew after walking the course.   Whether this was due to the state of the going, the size of the fences, feeling a bit chicken and having 'talked the talk' but not being able to 'walk the walk', who cares.  Those people decided it wasn't for them or their horse on this occasion, so hats off to them for making that call.  As an aside, one of the fallers had also won the event on former occasions so sometimes it's just down to Lord Luck not being on your side. 
3.  Distance and fitness of horses.............the distance was no more than a good old fashioned point, so should not have been a problem to those properly prepared, ridden considerately, or indeed pulled up by those aware of a tired horse.  The event has run often enough for people to know what to expect.
4. Horse deaths.......okay, an emotional one and without the full facts no-one can comment....however, all I will say is that horses do die out hunting and eventing, as well as in other circumstances, of heart attacks; sadly, I've had one collapse under me in the field and it ain't nice but it was an ex-eventer and he loved his hunting, he knew nothing of what was happening after about 20 seconds, and it was probably only that long because of the adrenaline pumping through his body.  There are plenty worse ways to go and if all I feel when I die is 20 secs of agony/consternation or whatever I will be happy as it will be a lot better than how either of my parents died.
5. Horses are expendable.....horses in former times were viewed as animals of work; over the years this has changed and they have become pets.  The 'expendable' view is probably more prevalent in racing/hunting/point-to-pointing where the horse has a very specific role to fulfill  than in the riding club circle of guys.  Am not saying that either is right or wrong.......there's probably a happy medium between the two!    However, just because a horse is pampered and does ****** all doesn't mean to say it's happy!  And before anyone takes offence, I am thinking specifically of my five year old that has been turned away for the last four months and is bored stupid and wants to work/hunt/jump etc etc.  How do I know this?  He jumps into the yard, follows horses on exercise up the drive and every time someone goes in the field to catch/turn out he comes racing up going 'is it my turn?', 'do you want me?'  And yes, he gets brought in, groomed, fed, has shelter and is seen to every day, but WANTS to work......IMO.

My commiserations to the poster that lost her ex-eventer.


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## popsdosh (15 February 2015)

Rapidash said:



			. 

I actually feel ashamed.
		
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I think you should!!!! 

How on earth can you compare this to the endurance horse just shows a lack of understanding  and prejudice.


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## Rapidash (15 February 2015)

popsdosh said:



			I think you should!!!! 

How on earth can you compare this to the endurance horse just shows a lack of understanding  and prejudice.
		
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OK, write me a couple of paragraphs explaining why and I'll read them with an open mind. 

I speak my mind, and I speak it as a hunt supporter, as a grand national supporter. 

To me, one horse dead is sad, two a tragedy, three unlucky but four? Surely then there must be something wrong with the race. 

I could turn around now and say poor Bundy died doing what he loved, that he wouldn't do it if he didn't want to, that horses break a leg out hacking or in the field. But I think that's irrelevant because he was ridden into the ground. A horse that collapsed 5 minutes after a race was asked to do a race it was not capable of doing whether the owner meant well or not. 

I saw it at a similar event where experienced riders did not pull up when they should have. And the write up in h&h said the same thing. 

At least no human was seriously hurt.


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## nianya (15 February 2015)

gunnergundog said:



			5. Horses are expendable.....horses in former times were viewed as animals of work; over the years this has changed and they have become pets.  The 'expendable' view is probably more prevalent in racing/hunting/point-to-pointing where the horse has a very specific role to fulfill  than in the riding club circle of guys.  Am not saying that either is right or wrong.......there's probably a happy medium between the two!    However, just because a horse is pampered and does ****** all doesn't mean to say it's happy!  And before anyone takes offence, I am thinking specifically of my five year old that has been turned away for the last four months and is bored stupid and wants to work/hunt/jump etc etc.  How do I know this?  He jumps into the yard, follows horses on exercise up the drive and every time someone goes in the field to catch/turn out he comes racing up going 'is it my turn?', 'do you want me?'  And yes, he gets brought in, groomed, fed, has shelter and is seen to every day, but WANTS to work......IMO.
		
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You've just offered two extremes as if those are the only realistic options and said "meh, they get hurt".  They aren't work animals anymore, we don't rely on them for our lives and livelihoods so that is a false comparison.

Horses, like dogs, cannot be counted on in all circumstances to know their limits.  That is exactly what a human is supposed to do.  My little mare would try to go to the moon if I asked her to, but that definitely doesn't mean she should or that I should ask!  Do some horses like it?  I'm sure they do.  My horses love trail riding and beg to go out, plenty of horses really love working cows, and I'm quite sure that cross-country is a lot of fun for some, but we owe it to them to take the best care we can.  Just because they might get hurt in a field doesn't mean we fail to do our best to horse-proof the fences after all.  

Steeplechases are known to be particular dangerous to horses, if there is no minimum requirement for entry the way there is in any other sport then I'd say we've failed not only our own equine partners, but also those who may be ridden by inexperienced people.  Willingness is not a substitute for experience or fitness and that's all that's being offered.  It's pretty disturbing to hear that there's no similar care taken regarding people who choose to join a hunt.


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## LittleRooketRider (15 February 2015)

Rapidash said:



			This is shocking! You can try and weasel around it by saying worse things happen to other horses but this is easily on a par with that endurance horse with two broken legs. I don't know how we can criticise the uae after this. 

"Oh they loved it". I love driving fast in my car- doesn't mean I should! 

" oh they knew the risks" they obviously have no judgement! Who cares about the cost eh- plenty of other horses. 

What a shameful episode in British equestrian sport. 

And how dare people try and brush it off as just one of those things oh you can break a leg in the field you know. Truly indefensible that a bunch of ill disciplined hooray Henrys can do that to their beasts. And don't tell me they're professional eventers as though that makes it OK. 

I actually feel ashamed.
		
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The difference is that the endurance horse broke BOTH front legs as a result of an underlying and IGNORED issue/injury/problem that should have been dealt with rather than continuing until the horse literally broke down. I am quite sure Wormy very much loved her horse and he was not carlessly disposed and replaced. I expect she may get another horse but not without a second thought for him.


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## nianya (15 February 2015)

I should have added that the XC horse who died of a heart attack can happen to any horse, especially those in top condition.  It's the injuries or unfit horses  that I take issue with.


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## popsdosh (15 February 2015)

Rapidash said:



			OK, write me a couple of paragraphs explaining why and I'll read them with an open mind. 

I speak my mind, and I speak it as a hunt supporter, as a grand national supporter. 

To me, one horse dead is sad, two a tragedy, three unlucky but four? Surely then there must be something wrong with the race. 

I could turn around now and say poor Bundy died doing what he loved, that he wouldn't do it if he didn't want to, that horses break a leg out hacking or in the field. But I think that's irrelevant because he was ridden into the ground. A horse that collapsed 5 minutes after a race was asked to do a race it was not capable of doing whether the owner meant well or not. 

I saw it at a similar event where experienced riders did not pull up when they should have. And the write up in h&h said the same thing. 

At least no human was seriously hurt.
		
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Sometimes I think we can just get carried away by several unrelated incidents happening in one event and over react without knowing the truth. I once saw 6 horses lose their lives at Huntingdon at a meting ,but the three meetings after that not one coincidence does come into play sometimes!
Why did you feel you needed to bring class into it as that event is open to anybody not just restricted to the 'hooray Henries' . It is a race from experience where the age of the horses would most likely  be higher than in racing so maybe that may be part of the reason. As you know from racing it is not uncommon for horses to drop dead soon after a race but because its out of the way of the public it does not get publicised and you could not say they were not capable of competing.
 As for picking on the situation that was mentioned in the thread  how can you say that the horse was not capable of doing the race ,there is no evidence that the race actually caused his demise. Certainly to me the picture of him being washed off does not look like a horse that has over exerted themselves.


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## Doormouse (15 February 2015)

Rapidash said:



			What inverted snobbery? How is it snobbish to disapprove of an event that four horses die in? Do you really think that's OK, because it was a fun event?
		
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If you read your first post again you might notice your reference to 'hooray henries'.

What has that got to do with horse welfare?


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## Hoof_Prints (15 February 2015)

I have no issue with the race, it looks amazing fun and any equine sport is a high risk activity. I know of a horse that quite a few years back, broke it's leg tripping in a prelim dressage test. Yes, I know this is comes pretty high where risk is concerned, but at the higher level of any discipline the competitors are working where the limits are tested . The issue is that people can enter without the experience, skills and fitness from rider or horse; this should be regulated surely! Very sad about the heart attack, thoughts with the owners  but I think that is just an example of a very unfortunate incident from a well prepared team. Look at Hickstead, couldn't exactly say he was pushed beyond his limit that day,but he suffered the same tragedy. If an accident happens to an unfit horse that's what concerns me, I think I am particularly upset by that thought after watching this video of the Antler Challenge... see 5:54-6:11 and then 6:23-6:31, poor bloody thing was exhausted and the rider kept pushing on https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tcj8Xib3KuM


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## Moomin1 (15 February 2015)

Hoof_Prints said:



			I have no issue with the race, it looks amazing fun and any equine sport is a high risk activity. I know of a horse that quite a few years back, broke it's leg tripping in a prelim dressage test. Yes, I know this is comes pretty high where risk is concerned, but at the higher level of any discipline the competitors are working where the limits are tested . The issue is that people can enter without the experience, skills and fitness from rider or horse; this should be regulated surely! Very sad about the heart attack, thoughts with the owners  but I think that is just an example of a very unfortunate incident from a well prepared team. Look at Hickstead, couldn't exactly say he was pushed beyond his limit that day,but he suffered the same tragedy. If an accident happens to an unfit horse that's what concerns me, I think I am particularly upset by that thought after watching this video of the Antler Challenge... see 5:54-6:11 and then 6:23-6:31, poor bloody thing was exhausted and the rider kept pushing on https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tcj8Xib3KuM

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Watching that clip makes me want to vomit. How anyone can push and push their horse like that - they are nothing short of monsters IMO.  Just the thought of doing that to my mare breaks my heart, and I'm no fluffy bunny by any means.  The human race is despicable at times.


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## Laafet (15 February 2015)

I am in two minds about it all, 10 years ago I would have been totally up for the challenge, I hunted my horse at that time over land that way and we had some great days out. Ironically enough he broke down, trotting a 20 m circle in a school on a perfect surface. However these days, I feel I have seen enough of horses being broken down, as much as I am sure my little lad would relish that race, I wouldn't do it. I don't care any more or less than 10 years ago, my experiences has changed. A client of ours was in the race and he fits the 'type' that would enter, they came home safe but I personally would not even go and watch. Even those videos make me cringe.


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## twiggy2 (15 February 2015)

Hoof_Prints said:



			Look at Hickstead, couldn't exactly say he was pushed beyond his limit that day,but he suffered the same tragedy. If an accident happens to an unfit horse that's what concerns me, I think I am particularly upset by that thought after watching this video of the Antler Challenge... see 5:54-6:11 and then 6:23-6:31, poor bloody thing was exhausted and the rider kept pushing on https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tcj8Xib3KuM

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I don't understand, for all of you that go hunting and defend this sort of race as not being as hard or as long as a days hunting or no different to what you would do hunting. would you really ride past a person who has their foot caught in the stirrup and looks to be knocked out? would you really continue to ride past or jump over a horse and rider fallen in a ditch? Would you really push a horse as exhausted as the one that falls at 6.23?

What is it about the human race that makes competition change the boundaries of what is acceptable?

Again I want to say that I do not class a heart attack after a race as cruelty-if the horse had an undiagnosed heart condition it could happen anywhere and anytime


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## popsdosh (15 February 2015)

twiggy2 said:



			I don't understand, for all of you that go hunting and defend this sort of race as not being as hard or as long as a days hunting or no different to what you would do hunting. would you really ride past a person who has their foot caught in the stirrup and looks to be knocked out? would you really continue to ride past or jump over a horse and rider fallen in a ditch? Would you really push a horse as exhausted as the one that falls at 6.23?

What is it about the human race that makes competition change the boundaries of what is acceptable?

Again I want to say that I do not class a heart attack after a race as cruelty-if the horse had an undiagnosed heart condition it could happen anywhere and anytime
		
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Hunt races like that are different to hunting in that you do keep going its a race after all. There are lots of people on the ground to help. I have yet to see the field stop in horse race to make sure a faller is ok. I will concede the tired horse was not something I would have done ,however it was the last fence and to a lot that take part all they want to do is get round and finish . That is no defence but maybe an explanation.


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## Hoof_Prints (15 February 2015)

twiggy2 said:



			I don't understand, for all of you that go hunting and defend this sort of race as not being as hard or as long as a days hunting or no different to what you would do hunting. would you really ride past a person who has their foot caught in the stirrup and looks to be knocked out? would you really continue to ride past or jump over a horse and rider fallen in a ditch? Would you really push a horse as exhausted as the one that falls at 6.23?

What is it about the human race that makes competition change the boundaries of what is acceptable?

Again I want to say that I do not class a heart attack after a race as cruelty-if the horse had an undiagnosed heart condition it could happen anywhere and anytime
		
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I don't claim to be a someone that goes out hunting on a regular basis, I am a bit too much of a fair weather rider for that and don't have the time ! but your questions seen a bit irrelevant? not defending any side here but where does any of the riding past an unconscious rider come in to it? If you are referring to people in the race not stopping when an incident occurs, it would be far more dangerous to start pulling up and disrupting the middle of a race when there are plenty of people on foot to check on them. There is very little you can do from an excitable horse without causing a lot more danger ! And I think anyone who pushes an exhausted horse should be utterly ashamed of themselves, it's disgusting. I don't think you can compare the race to a full days hunting IMO, there are breaks in the fast work instead of going at full pelt for a few minutes over fences that people feel they have to jump even if they are unsure if they are capable as a horse and rider team.


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## Rapidash (16 February 2015)

popsdosh said:



			Sometimes I think we can just get carried away by several unrelated incidents happening in one event and over react without knowing the truth. I once saw 6 horses lose their lives at Huntingdon at a meting ,but the three meetings after that not one coincidence does come into play sometimes!
Why did you feel you needed to bring class into it as that event is open to anybody not just restricted to the 'hooray Henries' . It is a race from experience where the age of the horses would most likely  be higher than in racing so maybe that may be part of the reason. As you know from racing it is not uncommon for horses to drop dead soon after a race but because its out of the way of the public it does not get publicised and you could not say they were not capable of competing.
 As for picking on the situation that was mentioned in the thread  how can you say that the horse was not capable of doing the race ,there is no evidence that the race actually caused his demise. Certainly to me the picture of him being washed off does not look like a horse that has over exerted themselves.
		
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I used the term to describe someone who is gung ho and careers across country without due care and attention. 

Regardless of what a horse looks like, if they drop dead 5 minutes after a race they aren't 'fine' and if it had been just one horse, fine it happens. But there were three others. 

A three mile demanding race needs to have entry criteria for both rider and horse. In this day and age, it can't be so cavalier (no I'm not being classist with that word either...) To allow anyone to go. 

I think the numerous comments from spectators who wouldn't go again are quite telling.


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## popsdosh (16 February 2015)

Rapidash said:



			I used the term to describe someone who is gung ho and careers across country without due care and attention. 

Regardless of what a horse looks like, if they drop dead 5 minutes after a race they aren't 'fine' and if it had been just one horse, fine it happens. But there were three others. 

A three mile demanding race needs to have entry criteria for both rider and horse. In this day and age, it can't be so cavalier (no I'm not being classist with that word either...) To allow anyone to go. 

I think the numerous comments from spectators who wouldn't go again are quite telling.
		
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Letting anyone enter is one of the appeals of this event to most people getting round is all that matters it is a challenge rather than a race. Are your entry criteria going to include a full heart scan and ECG before they start , I have just watched the video of the event and could not quite see the carnage everybody has described there were some fallers but to me they set off at a reasonable pace and I could not see anybody who was pushing their horse to hard and only saw a whip used once to straighten up a horse at a hedge(tiny slap on the neck). The conditions did not look good with a lot of it on maize stubble so that probably tells the story ,nearly a third pulled out before the start. 
Please can I put the ball into your court how do you devise entry criteria for this race that protects the horses like you aspire to do. one horse broke its leg well that can happen to the best of them, The particular horse you have mentioned would have qualified to run under any criteria and was an experienced advanced eventer. I cant comment on the others as I dont know what happened to them and there is some conjecture as it may have only been three horses in total! Before I get jumped on that is 3 to many in an ideal world but as I said before sometimes several coincidences come together and make things look so much worse than they were.


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## suegreenaway (16 February 2015)

Haven't got much to add but I know one jockey very well who sadly lost her horse 5 mins after the race and I can tell you 100% she would have prepared that horse probably better than any of the others there, he was in superb condition, both are very experienced and she most certainly would have pulled him up during the race if she had felt anything was amiss. It was a sad thing to happen but could not have been prevented, heart attacks happen any time and if she had known it was going to happen I am sure she would have done something. I wasnt there and cannot comment on anything else that happened but felt you ought to know this was 1 horse and jockey who clearly loved each other and it was a terrible terrible loss.


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## ester (16 February 2015)

gunnergundog said:



			I was there as a spectator and know some of the people involved in the organisation.  Just to address a couple of points raised above, in no particular order:

1.  Size of field......the field was actually smaller than what you could expect on a Saturday meet of any of the 'top' Shires packs, and on a good day the action was little different. *Except it was a race*
2.  No qualification criteria for entry......there is no criteria for entry when hunting with the Ledbury (over whose land the event ran), or any other hunt for that matter.  Common sense is what prevails out hunting and also, I believe, here when you look at the numbers that withdrew after walking the course.   Whether this was due to the state of the going, the size of the fences, feeling a bit chicken and having 'talked the talk' but not being able to 'walk the walk', who cares.  Those people decided it wasn't for them or their horse on this occasion, so hats off to them for making that call.  As an aside, one of the fallers had also won the event on former occasions so sometimes it's just down to Lord Luck not being on your side.* how many actually ran then? It could have been more? - Did the loose horses after fence 2 that continued cause anyone else any problems?*
3.  Distance and fitness of horses.............the distance was no more than a good old fashioned point, so should not have been a problem to those properly prepared, ridden considerately, or indeed pulled up by those aware of a tired horse.  The event has run often enough for people to know what to expect. *It hasn't run that often? 5 years then they had a break then this year? and was the first time over this going, on a 'marsh'?*

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I think I am just inclined to agree with Rachelferd, when you consider the effort that goes into keeping horses as safe as possible jump racing. I certainly feel for WorMy losing her chap and am sure she was plenty prepared but I do think that they are going to have to try and make improvements some how given that it hasn't been run that often, I'm not sure how the stats compare with open team chasing?


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## avthechav (16 February 2015)

ester said:



			I'm not sure how the stats compare with open team chasing?
		
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Would be interesting.....lots more open team chases but using the same horses a lot? 
Also open team chasing is kind of self regulated in that you have to have a team that  will take you on, as as they are professional or at least sponsored teams nowadays (not sure of the meaning of the term professional really) they are in it to win it and don't want people who are underprepared or incapable.  Would also be interesting to see how many completions/ fallers came from different sections....ie background of competitors. Too hard to do in reality but that would tell whether it is the luck of the draw or is there is an element of regulation needed?

ETA I am actually less interested in the pts horses and feel super sorry for all connections of these as like people have been saying, a heart attack after or an unfortunate accident can happen anywhere... More interested in what chances people actually have of getting round coz I think that this is where the chance of accident and injury comes in.


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## glamourpuss (16 February 2015)

I don't know how I feel about this ride....I really, really don't.
A friend of mine took part in 2013 (I think?) incredibly experienced rider (4* eventer, open team chaser, hunting, jockey licence) & the horse was prepared meticulously. They had a wonderful spin round, both thoroughly enjoyed it....wonderful.

I also know a girl who took part yesterday. They were both ridiculously underprepared IMO. I know the horse has had previous long standing tendon issues & whilst they have both been hunting regularly they'd done 2 hunter trials last season & that was it. Now that is lunacy IMO & putting yourself, your horse & the other horses in the field at risk like that is what gives this challenge the bad press.


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## Mariposa (16 February 2015)

I have nothing to add bar to pass on sympathy to WorMy for her loss. He certainly looks like he was enjoying it, ears pricked and head high. Losing a horse - no matter how it happens - is never easy. Horses are just as likely to have heart attacks hooning around in the field as they are on a racecourse, there's no rhyme or reason.


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## popsdosh (16 February 2015)

glamourpuss said:



			I don't know how I feel about this ride....I really, really don't.
A friend of mine took part in 2013 (I think?) incredibly experienced rider (4* eventer, open team chaser, hunting, jockey licence) & the horse was prepared meticulously. They had a wonderful spin round, both thoroughly enjoyed it....wonderful.

I also know a girl who took part yesterday. They were both ridiculously underprepared IMO. I know the horse has had previous long standing tendon issues & whilst they have both been hunting regularly they'd done 2 hunter trials last season & that was it. Now that is lunacy IMO & putting yourself, your horse & the other horses in the field at risk like that is what gives this challenge the bad press.
		
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I totally get where you are coming from but who is responsible at the end of the day the rider or the organisers. For the life of me I cannot see how the organisers can police it as horses come from all over the country and ireland on occassions,how are they to know if the combination is capable or not.
I dont think the riders can duck responsibility for their actions only they truely know their horses and obviously a good number yesterday chose not to run having walked the course.
The only workable option that I can think of is some system where if you are deemed to have run your horse and there are any questions about its fitness to run,the riders ability or inappropriate riding including not pulling up a tired that rider is then banned from taking part again. I cannot really see any other way of doing it.

Having said that who can say whether that would have saved one horse yesterday probably not.


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## glamourpuss (16 February 2015)

popsdosh said:



			I totally get where you are coming from but who is responsible at the end of the day the rider or the organisers. For the life of me I cannot see how the organisers can police it as horses come from all over the country and ireland on occassions,how are they to know if the combination is capable or not.
I dont think the riders can duck responsibility for their actions only they truely know their horses and obviously a good number yesterday chose not to run having walked the course.
The only workable option that I can think of is some system where if you are deemed to have run your horse and there are any questions about its fitness to run,the riders ability or inappropriate riding including not pulling up a tired that rider is then banned from taking part again. I cannot really see any other way of doing it.

Having said that who can say whether that would have saved one horse yesterday probably not.
		
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Exactly why I don't know how to feel about it. Whenever there is responsibility on owners/riders you will always get those that well....ruin it & what can the organisers do to make things safer that won't diminish the challenge & the appeal of it? Nothing.


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## RunToEarth (16 February 2015)

There were several horses who unseated their riders very early on in the race and went on to complete most of the course - there will be some of you who say they continued in fear/pack mentality but I personally think it demonstrates that the horses actually like running the course. 

We had a horse die on us a few years ago team chasing - it was a freak heart attack, he was a fit horse who had hunted all season. We didn't enter a team thinking "sod it, it's just a horse and we are massive hooray henrys who likes to inflict pain on horses we ride" he was entered because he loved his hunting and hedge hopping and he was mega all the way round,  hopped off at the finish, whipped his saddle off and he dropped - it is to this day one of the most traumatic experiences I've seen.


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## Luci07 (16 February 2015)

I don't understand why you can't have entry criteria for this race? How would that ruin it?  3 (or 4) horses dying in 1 race is too much. I don't agree with letting people self regulate either, some people have a very inflated opinion of their capabilities and fitness. You don't open up Badminton and say that riders can have a crack without qualifying!

So 1/3 dropped out, but 60 still rode. I love NH racing but horses are not expendable and to me, the race needs to tighten up its qualifications.


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## popsdosh (16 February 2015)

Luci07 said:



			I don't understand why you can't have entry criteria for this race? How would that ruin it?  3 (or 4) horses dying in 1 race is too much. I don't agree with letting people self regulate either, some people have a very inflated opinion of their capabilities and fitness. You don't open up Badminton and say that riders can have a crack without qualifying!

So 1/3 dropped out, but 60 still rode. I love NH racing but horses are not expendable and to me, the race needs to tighten up its qualifications.
		
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I think you totally misunderstand what this is .It is not a NH race it is a challenge of 3m across country over all types of obstacles .There is nothing in place that can prove whether a partnership is up to it or not it is a one off it is down to the riders to decide if they are up to it ,it ids not something you take on lightly .Lets challenge you to come up with the criteria,lets start with who decides whos capable bearing in mind the horses come from all over the country and ireland..One horse as far as I am aware got an injury that required PTS and as bad as that sounds I would say for that type of event is not unusual .I watched the video and to be honest was surprised by how considerate most of the riders were they were obviously taking account of the conditions.I was expecting worse if I am honest.


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## minesadouble (16 February 2015)

As one who doesn't know a great deal about this race I feel the question that needs to be asked is 'are this many horse deaths the norm?' if so then I agree that maybe some measures may be required to make it safer. If this was a 'freak' year then these things do just sometimes happen. Remember the year there were 3 deaths at Badminton? This sometimes happens at Cheltenham, the Grand National and sometimes as a livery yard we lose a disproportionate amount of horses in a year (to various causes) whereas most years we lose none. Sometimes these things 'just happen'.


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## LittleRooketRider (16 February 2015)

minesadouble said:



			As one who doesn't know a great deal about this race I feel the question that needs to be asked is 'are this many horse deaths the norm?' if so then I agree that maybe some measures may be required to make it safer. If this was a 'freak' year then these things do just sometimes happen. Remember the year there were 3 deaths at Badminton? This sometimes happens at Cheltenham, the Grand National and sometimes as a livery yard we lose a disproportionate amount of horses in a year (to various causes) whereas most years we lose none. Sometimes these things 'just happen'.
		
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^^This^^

I'm not saying nothing should be done to ensure safety etc but often there is nothing that can be done and very sad coincidences just happen.
e.g. on a lesser scale we very very very rarely have the vet out aside from jabs and vaccs, but in the space of two weeks we had to call them out for a very nasty cut (horse managed to catch her leg in the gate), colic and a suspected slipping stifle (it turned out she'd just tweaked something)..having never in well at least 15 years had any issues like this.


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## nianya (16 February 2015)

minesadouble said:



			As one who doesn't know a great deal about this race I feel the question that needs to be asked is 'are this many horse deaths the norm?' if so then I agree that maybe some measures may be required to make it safer. If this was a 'freak' year then these things do just sometimes happen. Remember the year there were 3 deaths at Badminton? This sometimes happens at Cheltenham, the Grand National and sometimes as a livery yard we lose a disproportionate amount of horses in a year (to various causes) whereas most years we lose none. Sometimes these things 'just happen'.
		
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I looked up stats on this last night.  There was a paper done looking across various types of races, flat and steeplechase, in the US and UK over a number of years.  By far the highest rate of major injury (limbs, backs, death) was in the steeplechase.  Over 7% ever year.  It's not a freak event.  

I don't race, so maybe I just don't "get it".  But I have long run and lead trail rides, I did not take people who I felt were not capable of the rides I planned.  In all trail riding groups I know of, it is the organizers responsibility to make sure people are safe.  Yes, you trust people somewhat to know their own abilities, but if they are clearly out of their depth then they are escorted back home.  Endurance horses in the reputable races are removed from the race, and not just anyone can enter a flat race.  So why is it so impossible that the organizers of this are not more discerning?


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## popsdosh (16 February 2015)

nianya said:



			I looked up stats on this last night.  There was a paper done looking across various types of races, flat and steeplechase, in the US and UK over a number of years.  By far the highest rate of major injury (limbs, backs, death) was in the steeplechase.  Over 7% ever year.  It's not a freak event.  

I don't race, so maybe I just don't "get it".  But I have long run and lead trail rides, I did not take people who I felt were not capable of the rides I planned.  In all trail riding groups I know of, it is the organizers responsibility to make sure people are safe.  Yes, you trust people somewhat to know their own abilities, but if they are clearly out of their depth then they are escorted back home.  Endurance horses in the reputable races are removed from the race, and not just anyone can enter a flat race.  So why is it so impossible that the organizers of this are not more discerning?
		
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Tell us how?


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## nianya (17 February 2015)

And why would it be my job to tell you how to do it?  Seems to me that's the responsibility of those people who want to be involved in the sport.


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## popsdosh (17 February 2015)

nianya said:



			And why would it be my job to tell you how to do it?  Seems to me that's the responsibility of those people who want to be involved in the sport.  But if so many other sports can do it, clearly it's not impossible.  Otherwise the people involved have just abdicated their responsibility to both horses and riders.
		
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Even you who say it should be regulated have ducked your responsibility!!!
I ask because there is it appears from some posting a total misunderstanding of the concept of this challenge. Where is the rider responsibility in your answer they are the person who should best know there horses and their own capabilities. Ultimately the organisers offer the opportunity to take part it is not a series ,there are not many similar events ,there is no national federation so who regulates it. Most importantly nobody is forcing you to do it.

If you wish to take part you can ,I am afraid the riders of today expect others to take responsibility for their actions when the buck in this case stops with them! In my opinion this has been blown out of all proportion,I have seen the video and out of all honesty see worse riding every weekend at BE which is regulated,horses die doing that as well but it does not get publicised .If it had not been for the OP I can bet we would not be discussing this now as it does not appear to have made the news elsewhere so far.
As I and others have said maybe just been unlucky this year with coincidence bringing things together.
What I find so amazing is an Event rider( Regularly competed in UK) died at the weekend and it has barely had a mention on here . Its ok though his horse was not hurt.
If anybody is interested it was Francisco Seabra .


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## popsdosh (17 February 2015)

Actually I have just trawled through a load of stuff on the Internet and the only place there is any mention of four horses losing their lives is in post 2.on this thread it has never been confirmed !!!!


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## minesadouble (17 February 2015)

nianya said:



			I looked up stats on this last night.  There was a paper done looking across various types of races, flat and steeplechase, in the US and UK over a number of years.  By far the highest rate of major injury (limbs, backs, death) was in the steeplechase.  Over 7% ever year.  It's not a freak event.  

I don't race, so maybe I just don't "get it".  But I have long run and lead trail rides, I did not take people who I felt were not capable of the rides I planned.  In all trail riding groups I know of, it is the organizers responsibility to make sure people are safe.  Yes, you trust people somewhat to know their own abilities, but if they are clearly out of their depth then they are escorted back home.  Endurance horses in the reputable races are removed from the race, and not just anyone can enter a flat race.  So why is it so impossible that the organizers of this are not more discerning?
		
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If figures quoted are for 'steeplechasing' then that will refer to racing under rules, therefore those figures are not applicable to this event.


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (17 February 2015)

watched the vid last night on FB and felt very uncomfortable. they all looked bloody knackered, even the front runners 

would never want to go and watch something like this.


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## ljohnsonsj (17 February 2015)

I find it unreal how irresponsible some horse owners are these days. It looked fun, something I probably if I had a more solid horse, would love to have a go at, but the min I felt the horse struggling I would pull up, most of these people seem incapable of doing that. Is winning really THAT important


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## LittleRooketRider (17 February 2015)

nianya said:



			I looked up stats on this last night.  There was a paper done looking across various types of races, flat and steeplechase, in the US and UK over a number of years.  By far the highest rate of major injury (limbs, backs, death) was in the steeplechase.  Over 7% ever year.  It's not a freak event.  

I don't race, so maybe I just don't "get it".  But I have long run and lead trail rides, I did not take people who I felt were not capable of the rides I planned.  In all trail riding groups I know of, it is the organizers responsibility to make sure people are safe.  Yes, you trust people somewhat to know their own abilities, but if they are clearly out of their depth then they are escorted back home.  Endurance horses in the reputable races are removed from the race, and not just anyone can enter a flat race.  So why is it so impossible that the organizers of this are not more discerning?
		
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Those stats do not apply to the golden button as they would have been taken from proper races on a racetrack. To answerthe quaestion we simply need to know the number of horse fatalities..I don't know maybe for the last 5-10 years if not more in the Golden Button


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (17 February 2015)

apparently so.

just to take an example off this thread, when Hickstead died he had shown NO signs of struggling in the course...........these horses look to be struggling from very early on, all of them,incl the winner............thats not a tragedy or an accident, its human greed and ego being put ahead of horse welfare.

as for the ex eventer that died after he finished, did the rider not owe the horse more? Bruce will not die "doing what he loved" ie passaging his nuts off in, a white foam sweat, because he gave his ALL to me and NMT and has earnt a quiet and SAFE retirement.
im sure that horse could have been kept in work in a less dangerous way.


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## ljohnsonsj (17 February 2015)

Prince33Sp4rkle said:



			apparently so.

just to take an example off this thread, when Hickstead died he had shown NO signs of struggling in the course...........these horses look to be struggling from very early on, all of them,incl the winner............thats not a tragedy or an accident, its human greed and ego being put ahead of horse welfare.

as for the ex eventer that died after he finished, did the rider not owe the horse more? Bruce will not die "doing what he loved" ie passaging his nuts off in, a white foam sweat, because he gave his ALL to me and NMT and has earnt a quiet and SAFE retirement.
im sure that horse could have been kept in work in a less dangerous way.
		
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Agree with this. Hicksteads death was a total tragedy, no indication of anything wrong, and I dare go as far as saying it was unavoidable, maybe not now if they have done PM or whatever and found underlying problems, but on the front of things absolutely nothing was wrong.These horses falling/dying on this course isn't an 'accident' they was totally avoidable if the riders took some note of how they was struggling rather than carrying on pushing and pushing.


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## ester (17 February 2015)

LittleRoodolphRider said:



			Those stats do not apply to the golden button as they would have been taken from proper races on a racetrack. To answerthe quaestion we simply need to know the number of horse fatalities..I don't know maybe for the last 5-10 years if not more in the Golden Button
		
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I think the poster was just adding to the point that although a horse can break a leg in the field galloping over fences will likely increase it?

The GB has only been run on 6 occasions, 5 years previously then a break, then this year.


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## popsdosh (17 February 2015)

With all due respect PS i think you a looking at that video and getting to wrong perspective the ground conditions were wet and testing and I think they set off at a rate that took account of that .The general consensus on the day was more got around and had less issues than they had before ,sorry if you dont agree but I was relatively surprised by the lack of use of spurs and whips. I still think it was just a bad coincidence.
I really wish riders from one discipline have a bit more understanding of other disciplines did you actually look at the photo of the horse being washed off before he had his heart attack!! Did he look like he had over exerted himself??


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (17 February 2015)

virtually every horse is getting cracked and kicked and virtually hauled over fences by the riders? i think that fact its SO visible and is happening to the entire field, gives an entirely accurate perspective tbh.


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## popsdosh (17 February 2015)

Prince33Sp4rkle said:



			virtually every horse is getting cracked and kicked and virtually hauled over fences by the riders? i think that fact its SO visible and is happening to the entire field, gives an entirely accurate perspective tbh.
		
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You must be looking at a different video!
At least the horse was given the opportunity to do something rather than being written off because it could not do what the owner wanted it to anymore!


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## ester (17 February 2015)

There is plenty on the Facebook page about the horse deaths, I think it pretty sad that the organisers haven't even released a condolences to connections statement or mentioned it in their report on the website


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## marmalade76 (17 February 2015)

woodlandswow said:



			Poor WorMy.. such a lovely horse but these things do happen.. its like the grand national, everyone has for an against arguments for that, its just horse sports.
Does anyone know how the infamous girl who rides a chestnut sidesaddle got on?
		
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She hacked around far behind and was one of the last if not the last to finish. 

Loose horses didn't cause a problem as far as I could see.

There must have been a fairly dodgy jumper up the front judging by the holes in the hedges that those following made use of.


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## popsdosh (17 February 2015)

ester said:



			There is plenty on the Facebook page about the horse deaths, I think it pretty sad that the organisers haven't even released a condolences to connections statement or mentioned it in their report on the website
		
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Why do they need to!! They all there on the day and it is dealt with personally.


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## ester (17 February 2015)

Just because I think any other large event would in their announcement of the results make some mention of it out of courtesy, it seems strange to have no mention of it at all. 

As it stands, to me it feels like they are trying to keep it quiet. 

thanks re. the loose horses marmalade.

Am not against it at all, I just think it should be taken into consideration for future runnings in case there is anything that could be done that might help reduce the risk.


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## popsdosh (17 February 2015)

ester said:



			Just because I think any other large event would in their announcement of the results make some mention of it out of courtesy, it seems strange to have no mention of it at all. 

As it stands, to me it feels like they are trying to keep it quiet. 

thanks re. the loose horses marmalade.

Am not against it at all, I just think it should be taken into consideration for future runnings in case there is anything that could be done that might help reduce the risk.
		
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I am sorry I have yet to see any BE or BS results that say a horse died in this class. There not hiding anything it is just that the people taking part know the risk they are taking and dont need to say anything . In fact I applaud Wormy as was, having the ability to put togather a statement like she did on sunday which made it very clear the affection she felt for her horse. Its beyond me how when somebody has gone to those lengths others can then criticise when they were not there riding the horse. Even less do they know the facts!


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## ester (17 February 2015)

Just to make it clear I am absolutely not criticising WorMy. 

you will note I said large event- ie the pinnacle of a sport, you wouldn't have it not mentioned at badders et al. or any of the big races under rules.


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## popsdosh (17 February 2015)

ester said:



			Just to make it clear I am absolutely not criticising WorMy. 

you will note I said large event- ie the pinnacle of a sport, you wouldn't have it not mentioned at badders et al. or any of the big races under rules.
		
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I assure you my remarks re wormy were in no way directed at you! 
I think the Golden button is indeed up there in relation to Hunt challenge races but most people interested would have been there on the day . The horses and the competitors are not really known outside their own circle as opposed to say Badminton,if you understand what I mean.


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (17 February 2015)

popsdosh said:



			You must be looking at a different video!
At least the horse was given the opportunity to do something rather than being written off because it could not do what the owner wanted it to anymore!
		
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cant play vids at work so cant link to what i watched but the front few horses are basically banking hedges, plouging through them, tipping and scrambling and being forced to continue by the rider.

retirement does not have to be flat out or written off. Bruce goes hacking 3/4 times a week, he is neither flat out(being thrashed round as a schoolmaster) or written off(turned out and forgotten) there is a middle ground and like i said before, was the horse not owed more?


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## popsdosh (17 February 2015)

You dont know the facts how do you know this horse was thrashed around you just assume because it had a heart attack it was. Looks pretty relaxed in the photo to me! Most people that take part the challenge is in getting around at their own speed hence why the field was so spread out at the start.


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## Moomin1 (17 February 2015)

It's worrying Popsdosh that you seem hell bent on defending what really is inexcusable in this day and age.  Of course accidents happen in all sports, and deaths too, but at the end of the day 4 horses dying in one event is more than just a coincidence IMO. 

I also don't think you or anyone else can make any judgement as to the physical state of a horse via one photo.


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (17 February 2015)

its god knows how many miles, of mostly deep going, with far more jumping efforts per 100m than any XC course...........................thrashed by your definition ie whipped excessively, or not, its not going to be a walk in the park for any horse. by thrashed i personally mean pushed to the limit and you cannot deny(unless you are blind) that every horse was basically at its limit by the last fence-they are all heaving themselves over, getting slower and slower, sticking more and more on take off and landing in a heap not sprinting away. They would have been pulled up by the FJ at any BE event................

im not assuming anything, the ground, the length of the course, the height and number of jumps, are all clearly visible. as is the number of horses belly flopping through things and *just* barely making it over without rotating.

i dont want to make it too personal but this old timer had given his all to many riders and IMO(and its not just my opinion by the looks of it) deserved more than to be pushed to breaking point. The rider and connections (again unless blind) KNEW 100% this would be a huge ask of any horse and would be gruelling and a test of endurance as much as skill-is it right to put a horse through that at all, but specifically in its *retirement* when it has taught the rider everything it knew and given them much success?

no morals


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## nikkimariet (17 February 2015)

I've just watched the videos from this years challenge.

I'm appalled.


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## Morgan123 (17 February 2015)

I find it utterly bizarre that people are defending this event and saying it's not a big deal that four horses died,  and are then saying it's completely different to the fact that horses die in endurance. How on earth can you say this is OK and different? If horses are likely to die in ANY event, then we should be putting in safety measures and changing it (don't even get me started on whoever was suggesting this was only as dangerous as a horse being in the field!!! are you for real!?).

Are there trot-ups and vet checks for the horses prior to the Golden Button? It always surprises me they don't do this for team chasing (well not to my knowledge). 

I think a good safety measure would be to do something like for endurance, where you trot up before and after and have heart rate and metabolics checks - if your horse is a) lame or b) heart rate is above a certain level, dehydrated etc, you're out - so you can't push them beyond their limit. Clearly there are cases where even that fails, but it could be a good start.


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## Morgan123 (17 February 2015)

double post deleted - sorry, computer being weird


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## popsdosh (17 February 2015)

Prince33Sp4rkle said:



			no morals 

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People in glass houses should not throw stones! if you are not making it personal that is!


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## popsdosh (17 February 2015)

nikkimariet said:



			I've just watched the videos from this years challenge.

I'm appalled.
		
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No surprise there then!!!!


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## TheSylv007 (17 February 2015)

popsdosh said:



			People in glass houses should not throw stones! if you are not making it personal that is!
		
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Wow.


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## Moomin1 (17 February 2015)

I have to say Popsdosh you don't portray yourself in the nicest of lights to be honest.  Why the hostile attitude?


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## popsdosh (17 February 2015)

Moomin1 said:



			I have to say Popsdosh you don't portray yourself in the nicest of lights to be honest.  Why the hostile attitude?
		
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Not hostile its the truth but for another time. Perhaps you should ask PS the same picking on an ex forum member deliberately in my view.

Enough said Im butting out . Otherwise I shall say something that will light a blue touch paper.


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## oldie48 (17 February 2015)

Only just noticed this post. i was there and was at fence 2. I didn't see carnage, there were a couple or three stops, one girl who had fallen off at the first fence remounted and came over after the main group. I saw 2 riders unseated on the landing side. It was quite a challenging fence but quite wide and the horses seemed to cope very well, there were no horse falls. IMO, there was a group of riders who were racing and the rest seemed to be taking the challenge as "getting round" safely. 39 riders finished out of 62 starters and several of those had fallen off and remounted. The ground was very heavy, it's clay at Longdon and unfortunately there had been rain the day before the race (maybe 2 days before) and you needed a very fit horse to get round at speed. I walked most of the course and ended up with size 60 boots because of the clay clinging to them. Yes, fences were big and some very trappy, but that is the nature of the challenge, it's not an eventing course. I'm really sorry there were horse fatalities,  (I thought 3), but I also know the horse and rider mentioned in earlier posts and am absolutely confident that the horse would have been thoroughly prepared, I also know he was a complete XC machine and gave every indication of loving his job (not so keen on the dressage though) and his rider is an experienced p2p rider. Thank goodness he collapsed after the race and not during it. I've seen a horse drop dead at a PC event, unfortunately, it happens but at least on this occasion the rider was unhurt. I do think you have to be a bit mad to do this race and yes, the likelihood of injury to both horse and rider is quite high, but that's true of hunting generally. I wouldn't want my horse cantering on the road or galloping across heavy plough but that's what hunt horses do all the time. Just trying to add a bit of perspective really, both the riders with headcams were racing and what you don't really get from the video is how strung out the horses were round the course, giving riders much more time to be safe at the jumps.


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (17 February 2015)

popsdosh said:



			People in glass houses should not throw stones! if you are not making it personal that is!
		
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do you want to clarify that just so we are all clear what we are talking about? come on, be a big girl and spell out exactly what you want to say rather than hiding behind silly phrases...................


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## RLT19 (17 February 2015)

amage said:



			It is a huge assumption to make that those horses that died were not fit enough. Certainly looking at the facebook page one of those that sadly had a heart attack and died after finishing was very fit looking and his owner/rider (a previous poster on here) has evented to a high level and is a licensed jockey so most definitely knows how to prep a horse correctly. She posted a lovely pic of him being washed off with his ears pricked after completing the course. Minutes later he had a heart attack. Sadly where you have livestock you have deadstock
		
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agree with Amage. A very true observation. I personally wouldn't run a horse in it, but I wouldn't own a NH horse either but that's just me, though it doesn't stop me watching NH racing, same could be said for 3DE. I am sure that all the horses that took part were well cared for during their life though, as many would be top class hunt horses & as such would be fit & very well cared for with no expense spared. It would be hard to police the race re : the suitability, ability, capability & fitness of both horse & rider as this is run by a hunt & not a recognized turf authority. I guess the footage could be viewed & if numbers were a factor then possibly limit the number of starters next year. Thats is just my way of looking at it & I have never attended but my partner who was a jockey has stewarded for it in the past & is obvioulsy used to the possibilty of losing horses at this type of event, but he had not passed previous comment on horses being lost in the past. I am afraid   that this debate will go on forever.


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (17 February 2015)

popsdosh said:



			Not hostile its the truth but for another time. Perhaps you should ask PS the same picking on an ex forum member deliberately in my view.

Enough said Im butting out . Otherwise I shall say something that will light a blue touch paper.
		
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im not picking on anyone deliberately and ex forum member or not the rider of that particular horse should be ashamed IMO. I couldnt care less if the horse belonged to the queen, the owner, rider and connections pushed it too far, to this end. That its an ex forum member is coincidence only tbh. The whole thing stinks.


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## kate2323 (17 February 2015)

I find it really odd that neither horse and hound magazine has sent any comment about the race in their frequent  email updates  ( I am a subscriber ) and if you look on the golden button website not one mention...just a video of the day...of the casualties .Is this because   they are trying to keep it out of the national press perhaps by "burying " the story? methinks the answer is yes.....


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## Rapidash (17 February 2015)

Popsdosh, are you connected to this race or something? You are defending it to the hilt and seem a bit offended on a personal level. 

Have you also previously had a different username on here?


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## kate2323 (17 February 2015)

The Golden Button Challenge
February 14 at 10:17pm · 
Thanks to all who made the challenge, foot race and Ball such a success. Here is the challenge report. Many more pictures and videos to follow. But currently enjoying chocolate nemesis pudding at the ball with little internet access. http://www.golden-button.co.uk/gwyn-jones-lands-2015-golde&#8230;/

no mention of the casualties...


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## TeamChaser (17 February 2015)

Really not sure there would be sufficient interest to make the national press??!! Come on!! Joe public really wouldn't care too much I would imagine whereas this is a "horsey" forum so feelings inevitably run high. I'm sure there's no big cover up but who does it really help broadcasting casualties? From WorMy's post it would appear her lovely horse was dealt with very sensitively which is all we can hope if tragedy strikes whilst competing

The chesnut horse in the head cam footage is a top class, hugely experienced open team chasing combination and I personally thought they had a brilliant spin round. I'm sorry, but I really did not see a horse being hauled and shoved around and struggling over the fences - quite the opposite. I saw a willing partner enjoying himself - go Ferrari! Good for them

If it's not your cup of tea, fine, but some over the top criticism of individuals on here based on little knowledge or fact


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## kate2323 (17 February 2015)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nFfS6kDzeoo&sns=fb
nicely professionally edited video to show what a fun day it was ! 
yes I am a conspiracy theorist so don't believe a word of the hype....


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## kate2323 (17 February 2015)

oh come on..the press love anything against hunting - this is a big news story....spun the right or wrong way this is a politically hot story. that is why there is no mention of any casualties on the website and even H and H have been silenced. I am not a mug ..this is spin spin spin.....


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## Doormouse (17 February 2015)

I have to admit that watching the head cam footage makes me think that even I could toddle along at the back through the holes and have a lovely ride!


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## TeamChaser (17 February 2015)

Doormouse said:



			I have to admit that watching the head cam footage makes me think that even I could toddle along at the back through the holes and have a lovely ride!
		
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Exactly what I thought Doormouse! Stay out the back, out of trouble and aim for the gaps!! I did consider doing it (for about 5 seconds) but the yucky ground would have been more of a factor for me than the course ... pathological hatred of mud!


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## Doormouse (17 February 2015)

I must admit the ground didn't impress me much either and I hunt in the deepest country you can imagine!

I would never ask a common horse to race at anything, a good strong 3 mile chaser who is fit and healthy should be well able for this if ridden well and not carrying too much weight.

In fairness, I regularly see many people out hunting asking too much of their horses out of deep ground because they are not knowledgeable enough to realise when a horse is tired. A tired horse will often pull harder and behave worse than a fresh one but very few people hunting these days know this.


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## xspiralx (17 February 2015)

PS - it is clear what popsdosh means. You have been very defensive in the past when decisions you've made about your horses have been questioned.

So it goes a bit beyond the pale to accuse someone of effectively abusing their old horse and driving it to its death. Not if you're not happy with the boot being on the other foot.

Who are you to say what the best retirement for any horse will be? A horse that loves xc and jumping is probably far happier to spend its retirement out hunting than it is quietly hacking 4x a week.

I watched several videos of the race. In the main saw horses that kept jumping well right to the end, ears pricked and enjoying themselves. Must have been watching a different video as certainly the ones I saw were not all exhausted and being forced to drag themselves over every fence.


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## Doormouse (17 February 2015)

Good post xspiralx.

PS - do you know for a fact that the horse who died of a heart attack did not have a pre existing undiagnosed heart condition? If the answer is no then all your posts are supposition which in this case is inappropriate.


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## ester (17 February 2015)

kate2323 said:



			I find it really odd that neither horse and hound magazine has sent any comment about the race in their frequent  email updates  ( I am a subscriber ) and if you look on the golden button website not one mention...just a video of the day...of the casualties .Is this because   they are trying to keep it out of the national press perhaps by "burying " the story? methinks the answer is yes.....
		
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I'm surprised at h+h as much as anything- they have put a photo up on their facebook page saying it looked as tough as usual or similar but no mention of deaths when I'd think hunt races were certainly in their remit.

I'm happy that it might just be a series of unfortunate events/accidents but would like to hear them say they will look into it to see if anything can be done for future runnings.


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## popsdosh (17 February 2015)

kate2323 said:



			oh come on..the press love anything against hunting - this is a big news story....spun the right or wrong way this is a politically hot story. that is why there is no mention of any casualties on the website and even H and H have been silenced. I am not a mug ..this is spin spin spin.....
		
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Actually there were numerous press people there and none so far have deemed it news worthy!  They must all be trying to bury it!!!

Just wish to make things clear my outburst earlier was to try and defend somebody who I felt was being unfairly treated by PS .


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## kate2323 (17 February 2015)

yes they probably are...hunting is too hot a subject at the moment...dont get me wrong i love hunting but the lack of any "press "on this tragic race says alot....


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## kate2323 (17 February 2015)

horse and hound report on ponies stuck in rivers and  a rescue horse dying as it is rescued...weird they havent reported on this race when privately owned  horses died...


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## popsdosh (17 February 2015)

kate2323 said:



			yes they probably are...hunting is too hot a subject at the moment...dont get me wrong i love hunting but the lack of any "press "on this tragic race says alot....
		
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Put into perspective probably 20 horses died on Sunday through neglect. Any horse death is a tragedy and nobody wants to see it but no amount of fuss will bring one of them back now , just need to take in what happened and analyse the reasons each one died and then decide if and its a big if, anything can be done to prevent it happening again, I am afraid sensationalising it on here is not going to achieve that!!


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## popsdosh (17 February 2015)

Can I just ask politely Kate 2323 how many horses died in the Golden Button this year? Where did you get that figure from?


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## RunToEarth (17 February 2015)

Prince33Sp4rkle said:



			as for the ex eventer that died after he finished, did the rider not owe the horse more? Bruce will not die "doing what he loved" ie passaging his nuts off in, a white foam sweat, because he gave his ALL to me and NMT and has earnt a quiet and SAFE retirement.
im sure that horse could have been kept in work in a less dangerous way.
		
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PS I usually really enjoy your posts but I think that is quite a bold comment coming from you, and if I'd made the same statement about yours you would, rightly, be angry given I hadn't known your horse. 

I've never done the button but I've done the Melton and I absolutely didn't boot the horse round. He was a retired eventer who hunted twice a week and is still going strong today - I took him because I thought he would enjoy it, and in my humble opinion he felt like he did. Retiring him to hacking was not an option for him, nor spinning in 20m circles as a "school master". Every horse is an individual as you are always quick to remind people, some horses are too busy minded for a slow retirement.


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## elliefiz (18 February 2015)

My OH is a former top NH jockey and now a racehorse trainer. He is absolutely fearless as a rider but upon conversation about the Golden Button, he said he would never ride in it because it is far too dangerous and why risk a good horse like that? His horses race every week and there are always risks involved, but he doesn't put his horses in unnecessarily dangerous situations and having watched the videos of the race, I can completely understand his point. To compare the Golden Button to any professional race meeting or even a p2p is silly- trainers walk a course and pull horses from races if the ground isn't right, etc because it's always best to preserve a horse for another day. The Golden button is all about having a day out tearing across country with seemingly little regard for the horses welfare if the videos are anything to go by. 

On a separate point, can anyone point me in the direction of a scientific study that proves horses "love" doing anything?? I truly want to see the reasoning behind assigning human emotions to an animal without proof they have that sort of emotional developement. Horses instinct is to stay with a pack, most will run themselves into the ground to stay with other horses. We are all aware that horses have no sense of self preservation, they aren't developed enough to think for themselves in that way. Yet we consider that they feel love? I hate the way people say the horse died doing what he loved, when the reality is the horse was doing something he has been trained to do. I have no thoughts on the right or wrongness of the older ex eventer dying after the race. But please to all who say oh he looked so happy, stop being ridiculous. His ears are pricked and head up because there are no doubt a large number of horses milling around as it appears to be the lorry car park, and naturally horses will be alert when other horses are around.


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## Moomin1 (18 February 2015)

elliefiz said:



			My OH is a former top NH jockey and now a racehorse trainer. He is absolutely fearless as a rider but upon conversation about the Golden Button, he said he would never ride in it because it is far too dangerous and why risk a good horse like that? His horses race every week and there are always risks involved, but he doesn't put his horses in unnecessarily dangerous situations and having watched the videos of the race, I can completely understand his point. To compare the Golden Button to any professional race meeting or even a p2p is silly- trainers walk a course and pull horses from races if the ground isn't right, etc because it's always best to preserve a horse for another day. The Golden button is all about having a day out tearing across country with seemingly little regard for the horses welfare if the videos are anything to go by. 

On a separate point, can anyone point me in the direction of a scientific study that proves horses "love" doing anything?? I truly want to see the reasoning behind assigning human emotions to an animal without proof they have that sort of emotional developement. Horses instinct is to stay with a pack, most will run themselves into the ground to stay with other horses. We are all aware that horses have no sense of self preservation, they aren't developed enough to think for themselves in that way. Yet we consider that they feel love? I hate the way people say the horse died doing what he loved, when the reality is the horse was doing something he has been trained to do. I have no thoughts on the right or wrongness of the older ex eventer dying after the race. But please to all who say oh he looked so happy, stop being ridiculous. His ears are pricked and head up because there are no doubt a large number of horses milling around as it appears to be the lorry car park, and naturally horses will be alert when other horses are around.
		
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Amen


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (18 February 2015)

RunToEarth said:



			PS I usually really enjoy your posts but I think that is quite a bold comment coming from you, and if I'd made the same statement about yours you would, rightly, be angry given I hadn't known your horse. 

I've never done the button but I've done the Melton and I absolutely didn't boot the horse round. He was a retired eventer who hunted twice a week and is still going strong today - I took him because I thought he would enjoy it, and in my humble opinion he felt like he did. Retiring him to hacking was not an option for him, nor spinning in 20m circles as a "school master". Every horse is an individual as you are always quick to remind people, some horses are too busy minded for a slow retirement.
		
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thats fine, we dont always have to agree on everything 

i still dont agree with it, not one little bit and im not sure that just because ive disagreed with people over my horse in the past, that means i cant have an opinion on any other horse now? disagreement, argument, call it what you will, its what happens when hundreds of people discuss any topic.

i dont think races such as this are fair on the horses at all, thats just how i feel.


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## Cortez (18 February 2015)

Agree with elliefiz


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## marmalade76 (18 February 2015)

elliefiz said:



			My OH is a former top NH jockey and now a racehorse trainer. He is absolutely fearless as a rider but upon conversation about the Golden Button, he said he would never ride in it because it is far too dangerous and why risk a good horse like that? His horses race every week and there are always risks involved, but he doesn't put his horses in unnecessarily dangerous situations and having watched the videos of the race, I can completely understand his point. To compare the Golden Button to any professional race meeting or even a p2p is silly- trainers walk a course and pull horses from races if the ground isn't right, etc because it's always best to preserve a horse for another day. The Golden button is all about having a day out tearing across country with seemingly little regard for the horses welfare if the videos are anything to go by. 

On a separate point, can anyone point me in the direction of a scientific study that proves horses "love" doing anything?? I truly want to see the reasoning behind assigning human emotions to an animal without proof they have that sort of emotional developement. Horses instinct is to stay with a pack, most will run themselves into the ground to stay with other horses. We are all aware that horses have no sense of self preservation, they aren't developed enough to think for themselves in that way. Yet we consider that they feel love? I hate the way people say the horse died doing what he loved, when the reality is the horse was doing something he has been trained to do. I have no thoughts on the right or wrongness of the older ex eventer dying after the race. But please to all who say oh he looked so happy, stop being ridiculous. His ears are pricked and head up because there are no doubt a large number of horses milling around as it appears to be the lorry car park, and naturally horses will be alert when other horses are around.
		
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Have to disagree that al horses lack self preservation, many do have plenty. If they have none why do all of mine choose to walk round the boggy bits on the bridleway rather than through them? Why does my unshod pony choose to scrape through the bushes at the side of a track rather than walk on the stones? Why do some refuse a fence when they've got it wrong, even when following? Refusing to load, etc, etc, I would call all that self preservation and  would not want a horse with none.

As for loving things, mine certainly love food 

As for PS, I totally understand her opinion, as far as I can tell the horse in question was a 17 year old high mileage event horse and I'm sure many people would agree with her POV an d I have to wonder if people would have quite so quick to jump to the rider's defence had she not been a former forum member.


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## popsdosh (18 February 2015)

marmalade76 said:



			Have to disagree that al horses lack self preservation, many do have plenty. If they have none why do all of mine choose to walk round the boggy bits on the bridleway rather than through them? Why does my unshod pony choose to scrape through the bushes at the side of a track rather than walk on the stones? Why do some refuse a fence when they've got it wrong, even when following? Refusing to load, etc, etc, I would call all that self preservation and  would not want a horse with none.

As for loving things, mine certainly love food 

As for PS, I totally understand her opinion, as far as I can tell the horse in question was a 17 year old high mileage event horse and I'm sure many people would agree with her POV an d I have to wonder if people would have quite so quick to jump to the rider's defence had she not been a former forum member.
		
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Of course they would jump to her defence when somebody in my opinion was being unfairly attacked perhaps you did not see the worst of it as some was removed..
What age did opposition buzz do his last 3*? they are not past it at 17  I do have to laugh when the PS cliche start defending her on a subject most of them and her know diddily squat about.


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## elliefiz (18 February 2015)

I think I worded it incorrectly, horses do have self preservation unless under extreme fear for their lives when they will do anything to escape an imagined threat. The point I was trying to make is that a horse will stay with a pack even at a risk of injury to itself, indeed many horses in racing who have injured themselves during the race don't pull up but continue running. They also have no natural sense of right and wrong, my mare for example will lean against the fence until it breaks to get grass on the other side. Not sure why, she is in a field with plenty of grass but to her the grass is quite literally always greener. She broke the fence in the past and then pushed through it, scratching herself on the nails and broken wood. At no point did she think oh that might be a bad idea, I might get hurt. That's the type of self preservation I was talking about. She went into field the next time and attempted to do the exact same thing only we had put electric wire up and she couldn't. It doesn't scream of a horse being a terribly intelligent being. And yet we consider them to have some sort of emotional development that they do things out of love not because they have been trained a certain way or their survival instinct is kicking in?? As for your horse loving his food, I think scientifically he doesn't "love" anything, it's just the easiest way for us humans to describe it in our terms, especially when they mob you to get their dinner. But anyway I am going way off topic so apologies for hi jacking the thread, it gets my back up when anyone says an animal has died doing what it "loved", I doubt any horse who died on Saturday would have been at home in a field thinking darn it I am missing the golden button race and I would have loved to do it.


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## Mariposa (18 February 2015)

I don't think this has been posted yet ( but apologies if it has) but there's a headcam video of the whole race here:

http://www.horseandcountry.tv/celebrity/hc-web-team/web-teams-blog-famous-golden-button


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## LittleRooketRider (18 February 2015)

marmalade76 said:



			H
As for PS, I totally understand her opinion, as far as I can tell the horse in question was a 17 year old high mileage event horse and I'm sure many people would agree with her POV an d I have to wonder if people would have quite so quick to jump to the rider's defence had she not been a former forum member.
		
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17 is not old for a horse, Opposition Buzz was 17 and going round 3*s, if I remember Imperial Cavalier did his last Badminton age 17 and has now continued to compete at a lower level. As for jumping to the rider's defence..the horse had a heart-attack, a very unfortunate and devastating occurrence, such the same happened to Wild Lone at WEG. We are told the horse was prepared meticulously, and both the rider and horse were perfectly capable and experienced..as shown by their safe completion of the course. Who knows what caused the heart attck, its highly likely to be an undiagnosed/undetected heart problem or it 'just happened' (thsi happened to my friend's dad), whatever it was the fact that it occurred after the Golden Button is most probably a complete coincidence. Wormy does not need defending, she has no reason to when she has done nothing wrong.


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## ester (18 February 2015)

Self preservation is very different when adrenaline is involved-my unshod will go over any ground out hunting some of which he might be funny about hacking - and will be footy the next day for it. Same with boggy patches etc I usually let him determine pace hacking if he pulls up there is usually a reason no chance of that hunting though!


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## marmalade76 (18 February 2015)

LittleRoodolphRider said:



			17 is not old for a horse, Opposition Buzz was 17 and going round 3*s, if I remember Imperial Cavalier did his last Badminton age 17 and has now continued to compete at a lower level. As for jumping to the rider's defence..the horse had a heart-attack, a very unfortunate and devastating occurrence, such the same happened to Wild Lone at WEG. We are told the horse was prepared meticulously, and both the rider and horse were perfectly capable and experienced..as shown by their safe completion of the course. Who knows what caused the heart attck, its highly likely to be an undiagnosed/undetected heart problem or it 'just happened' (thsi happened to my friend's dad), whatever it was the fact that it occurred after the Golden Button is most probably a complete coincidence. Wormy does not need defending, she has no reason to when she has done nothing wrong.
		
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I don't need a patronising lecture, thank you, I was merely stating that I UNDERTOOD PS's POV and that there are many out there who would agree with her.


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## marmalade76 (18 February 2015)

elliefiz said:



			I think I worded it incorrectly, horses do have self preservation unless under extreme fear for their lives when they will do anything to escape an imagined threat. The point I was trying to make is that a horse will stay with a pack even at a risk of injury to itself, indeed many horses in racing who have injured themselves during the race don't pull up but continue running. They also have no natural sense of right and wrong, my mare for example will lean against the fence until it breaks to get grass on the other side. Not sure why, she is in a field with plenty of grass but to her the grass is quite literally always greener. She broke the fence in the past and then pushed through it, scratching herself on the nails and broken wood. At no point did she think oh that might be a bad idea, I might get hurt. That's the type of self preservation I was talking about. She went into field the next time and attempted to do the exact same thing only we had put electric wire up and she couldn't. It doesn't scream of a horse being a terribly intelligent being. And yet we consider them to have some sort of emotional development that they do things out of love not because they have been trained a certain way or their survival instinct is kicking in?? As for your horse loving his food, I think scientifically he doesn't "love" anything, it's just the easiest way for us humans to describe it in our terms, especially when they mob you to get their dinner. But anyway I am going way off topic so apologies for hi jacking the thread, it gets my back up when anyone says an animal has died doing what it "loved", I doubt any horse who died on Saturday would have been at home in a field thinking darn it I am missing the golden button race and I would have loved to do it.
		
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I'm not disagreeing with you! Re 'love', the comment about food was a joke, as indicated by the added smilie. 
And the self preservation, you must have a dim horse 'cause there have been several occasions he various horses of mine have got their feet through the wire fencing (they are on a farm) and each one has waited, attached to the fence, to be rescued, not pulled themselves free and damaged themselves in the process 

Yes, hoses will run on on adrenaline, but I really don't think any of my horses have felt they were running for their lives every time I've been hunting, team chasing or having a gallop over the hill.


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## popsdosh (18 February 2015)

marmalade76 said:



			I don't need a patronising lecture, thank you, I was merely stating that I UNDERTOOD PS's POV and that there are many out there who would agree with her.
		
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And many who dont!!


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## marmalade76 (18 February 2015)

popsdosh said:



			Of course they would jump to her defence when somebody in my opinion was being unfairly attacked perhaps you did not see the worst of it as some was removed..
What age did opposition buzz do his last 3*? they are not past it at 17  I do have to laugh when the PS cliche start defending her on a subject most of them and her know diddily squat about.
		
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 I am not part of her nor anyone else's clique and having hunted, teamchased and competed in a similar hunt race I wouldn't say I know diddly squat on the subject.


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## popsdosh (18 February 2015)

marmalade76 said:



			I am not part of her or anyone else's clique and having hunted, teamchased and competed in a similar hunt race I wouldn't say I know diddly squat on the subject.
		
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Point taken however as others have pointed out you cannot judge what happened to Wormy's horse without knowing all the facts ! That is all I have asked people to do wait till they know what the facts are they dont even know the true number. The attack was unfair and looked worse before it was edited.


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## marmalade76 (18 February 2015)

Perhaps you are right, maybe I have missed something.


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## minesadouble (18 February 2015)

Sorry to be nosey but who is your OH if you don't mind me asking?
Oops thought I had quoted Elliefiz but seems to have vanished!! Anyway that's who my particularly intrusive question was aimed at.


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## marmalade76 (18 February 2015)

Number of horses lost confirmed here - 

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/news...tonRide&utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social


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## LittleRooketRider (18 February 2015)

marmalade76 said:



			I don't need a patronising lecture, thank you, I was merely stating that I UNDERTOOD PS's POV and that there are many out there who would agree with her.
		
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Somebody has made a point, I did not agree with that point so I responded with what I considered measured perspective. I am a natural waffler/rambler, patronising lecturer I am not, your welcome...and there are many who don't agree with her.


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## LittleRooketRider (18 February 2015)

Just to add..having watched  some footage of it the fences look like the bigger end of a good jumping days hunting, the riders all appear perfectly capable and it doesn't look like a mad melee of horses..so all in all not the sensationalised nightmare/chaos as some have suggested. IMO.

in all honesty, if I had the opportunity i.e. capable horse, sufficient training and prep etc. I'd give it go.


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## marmalade76 (18 February 2015)

LittleRoodolphRider said:



			Just to add..having watched  some footage of it the fences look like the bigger end of a good jumping days hunting, the riders all appear perfectly capable and it doesn't look like a mad melee of horses..so all in all not the sensationalised nightmare/chaos as some have suggested. IMO.

in all honesty, if I had the opportunity i.e. capable horse, sufficient training and prep etc. I'd give it go.
		
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As would I.


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## elliefiz (19 February 2015)

marmalade76 said:



			I'm not disagreeing with you! Re 'love', the comment about food was a joke, as indicated by the added smilie. 
And the self preservation, you must have a dim horse 'cause there have been several occasions he various horses of mine have got their feet through the wire fencing (they are on a farm) and each one has waited, attached to the fence, to be rescued, not pulled themselves free and damaged themselves in the process 

Yes, hoses will run on on adrenaline, but I really don't think any of my horses have felt they were running for their lives every time I've been hunting, team chasing or having a gallop over the hill.
		
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 I don't think my horse is any less intelligent than anyone else's. And I would hopefully spot something seeing as I am studying an animal behaviour course part time. But lucky you having such amazingly superior horses that appear to be rare examples of a huge evolvement in equine intelligence.  I can think of a number of people who would love to study them! 

And as for horses not hunting on adrenaline, I would wager 90% of horses hunt on adrenaline, they will run to keep up with a herd of horses and that's a natural instinct. I have hunted for my entire life and I have lost count of the number of times I have seen unfit horses pushing themselves to keep up with the pack because they are anxious about being left behind. Usually the same horses who jog all the way back to the boxes when the hunt ends because they are still anxious about being on their own. Of course good basic training and handling addresses this anxiety and makes for a more balanced and calmer horse but the natural instinct is always there and that instinct at times means horses get injured or worse.  

As for my OH, he would not be pleased to have his name mentioned on H&H; as a typical Irishman he is very private!


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## marmalade76 (19 February 2015)

Ah, obviously my excellent handling, then! And you're welcome to meet them anytime


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## popsdosh (19 February 2015)

elliefiz said:



			I don't think my horse is any less intelligent than anyone else's. And I would hopefully spot something seeing as I am studying an animal behaviour course part time. But lucky you having such amazingly superior horses that appear to be rare examples of a huge evolvement in equine intelligence.  I can think of a number of people who would love to study them! 

And as for horses not hunting on adrenaline, I would wager 90% of horses hunt on adrenaline, they will run to keep up with a herd of horses and that's a natural instinct. I have hunted for my entire life and I have lost count of the number of times I have seen unfit horses pushing themselves to keep up with the pack because they are anxious about being left behind. Usually the same horses who jog all the way back to the boxes when the hunt ends because they are still anxious about being on their own. Of course good basic training and handling addresses this anxiety and makes for a more balanced and calmer horse but the natural instinct is always there and that instinct at times means horses get injured or worse.  

As for my OH, he would not be pleased to have his name mentioned on H&H; as a typical Irishman he is very private!
		
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I am just slightly staggered that with the way you think that you now cannot see it was not the mayhem and carnage it was portrayed to be . One horse hade to be PTs due to an injury and two had heart attacks after the race which none of us know was directly caused by anything. I still maintain if you look at that picture of the horse after the race it does not look in distress ,I see far worse everyday at the end of races under rules. You or nobody who was not there can tell me that those horses were not fit it can happen to the fittest and I am sure your OH being an experienced jockey will testify to that and I am sure if he studies the various videos that are about he will realise they did not go off at a stupid pace and the majority of the riders rode well within there horses capabilities,

Either you enjoy the sport of hunt races or you dont as they really are the preserve of the adrenalin junkie or the one off entrant to say I have done that. I have just found it incredible that riders from a totally different discipline can wade in condemning what happened on the back of an incorrect casualty number and they clearly did not have a clue about horses jumping or they were watching something completely different to what I saw perhaps as they say they should get out more!


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## srspickard (19 February 2015)

Hi only_me, would you mind contacting me via PM or email at sally@eventingnation.com? I'm doing some research for Eventing Nation on this year's Challenge. Thank you!


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## gunnergundog (20 February 2015)

A good, and in my opinion, very fair write up of the event in H&H yesterday.


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## oldie48 (20 February 2015)

yes, I thought so too and I was actually there. The last couple of paragraphs are of particular relevance to this thread and the comment regarding the fitness of some horses and the capability of some riders was very apt. However, IMHO it would be wrong and very unfair to automatically assume a link between horse fitness and rider capability with the three horses that died unless there is evidence that the horses were ridden incompetently or pushed on when they were clearly too tired to continue. I haven't seen any comment by someone who was there to that effect but I have read a lot of opinions by people who were not there.



gunnergundog said:



			A good, and in my opinion, very fair write up of the event in H&H yesterday.
		
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## Goldenstar (20 February 2015)

gunnergundog said:



			A good, and in my opinion, very fair write up of the event in H&H yesterday.
		
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Yes I thought it was fair and balanced , based on what I have watched online and the comments of those who where there .
It's been an interesting thread for me because I am considering J doing a similar shorter thing at the end of March .


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## oldie48 (20 February 2015)

Good luck if you decide to go ahead and hopefully you'll have better ground conditions. 



Goldenstar said:



			Yes I thought it was fair and balanced , based on what I have watched online and the comments of those who where there .
It's been an interesting thread for me because I am considering J doing a similar shorter thing at the end of March .
		
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## Shrek-Eventing-SW (20 February 2015)

http://www.golden-button.co.uk/golden-button-challenge-review-statement/

That is a statement on the Golden Button website.

I happen to know one of the fallers and I've heard that response times to the injured were terrible, with only 2 paramedics to cover the whole 60 riders. 

Having watched the video, another thing that worried me was how short the run in was after the finishing posts. These horses would have been galloping and jumping for 3 miles at a fair speed and then have to come to almost a stand still in what looked like a very crowded area. At least at point to points and "proper" racecourses, the horses can gradually decrease speed instead of having to be pulled up to a stop almost. 

I have no reason to dislike the event, from what I could see on the videos, the majority of the horses looked fit and I certainly know that the people I actually know who took part, are all very experienced hunt/point to point jockeys who are more than capable of completing the race and not only that, but who know how to get the horses prepared for a race of this nature.

I do think however, that the organisers need to review the location of the event for next year because this is England, we are going to get unexpected rain and the ground has to hold up, or failing that, the event needs to be postponed. Not only that, but the area after the finishing posts definitely needs to be extended into a large field where the horses aren't all going to be on top of each other (for want of a better expression)


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## nuttychestnut (20 February 2015)

I think the write up is quite fair, but I wonder how different the race would had been had the first 2-3 fences been removed from the course.


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## ironhorse (20 February 2015)

Goldenstar said:



			Yes I thought it was fair and balanced , based on what I have watched online and the comments of those who where there .
It's been an interesting thread for me because I am considering J doing a similar shorter thing at the end of March .
		
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Agree - very good report, but I would expect that as the writer is a very experienced hunter and has also reported on eventing and racing at the highest level. I think you would be unlikely to find another hunt ride staged in those sort of conditions Goldenstar - even the last running of this event, which I attended, was better ground. The Melton etc gets postponed if the ground is not right; the GB organisers probably didn't have that option looking at the sort of land it is run on - the farmers are likely ready to plough the maize stubble up soon and plant this season's crops.
I've watched this discussion with interest but not contributed as we weren't able to go to the GB this year; however I will say that I am quite closely involved with team chasing and we would not run an open team chase on that ground. Two paramedics would have been all that they were obliged to have under the conditions of their insurance I would think, but common sense would suggest more are needed with 62 runners!


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## DragonSlayer (20 February 2015)

Moomin1 said:



			It's worrying Popsdosh that you seem hell bent on defending what really is inexcusable in this day and age.  Of course accidents happen in all sports, and deaths too, but at the end of the day 4 horses dying in one event is more than just a coincidence IMO. 

I also don't think you or anyone else can make any judgement as to the physical state of a horse via one photo.
		
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I agree with Moomin, that's an awful lots of deaths 'just for a race'.....sure I'll be called a bunny hugger but in the video with the grey horse, seemed to be a lot of whip waving around.

Looks great fun, I have to admit....but at some point the question has to be asked how can it be made safer for both horses and riders? Riders know the risks, horses do as they are told (most of the time!) but I guess it's OK because '....it's just a horse'....

A sad day.


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## DragonSlayer (20 February 2015)

elliefiz said:



			My OH is a former top NH jockey and now a racehorse trainer. He is absolutely fearless as a rider but upon conversation about the Golden Button, he said he would never ride in it because it is far too dangerous and why risk a good horse like that? His horses race every week and there are always risks involved, but he doesn't put his horses in unnecessarily dangerous situations and having watched the videos of the race, I can completely understand his point. To compare the Golden Button to any professional race meeting or even a p2p is silly- trainers walk a course and pull horses from races if the ground isn't right, etc because it's always best to preserve a horse for another day. The Golden button is all about having a day out tearing across country with seemingly little regard for the horses welfare if the videos are anything to go by. 

On a separate point, can anyone point me in the direction of a scientific study that proves horses "love" doing anything?? I truly want to see the reasoning behind assigning human emotions to an animal without proof they have that sort of emotional developement. Horses instinct is to stay with a pack, most will run themselves into the ground to stay with other horses. We are all aware that horses have no sense of self preservation, they aren't developed enough to think for themselves in that way. Yet we consider that they feel love? I hate the way people say the horse died doing what he loved, when the reality is the horse was doing something he has been trained to do. I have no thoughts on the right or wrongness of the older ex eventer dying after the race. But please to all who say oh he looked so happy, stop being ridiculous. His ears are pricked and head up because there are no doubt a large number of horses milling around as it appears to be the lorry car park, and naturally horses will be alert when other horses are around.
		
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Jolly good.


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## Tiddlypom (20 February 2015)

Is the hogged grey that featured in the video footage the same one that is pictured in the H&H report? The report singles the rider out for an 'admirable display of horsemanship', and that he 'jumped round beautifully at a sensible pace to finish with ears pricked'.

Maybe it was another horse though, as the video of the grey showed (as DS says), a lot of whip and rein waving and made for uncomfortable viewing. The chestnut's round seemed much more accomplished.

Good on H&H, though, for the final paragraph of the report.


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## Rapidash (20 February 2015)

So the report was carried out by the organisers of the race and asked only those riders who participated and found all OK. So that's OK then. Nothing to see here. Everyone move along.


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## popsdosh (20 February 2015)

Rapidash said:



			So the report was carried out by the organisers of the race and asked only those riders who participated and found all OK. So that's OK then. Nothing to see here. Everyone move along.
		
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You cannot please everybody! probably best to move along.


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## Lexi_ (20 February 2015)

Tiddlypom said:



			Is the hogged grey that featured in the video footage the same one that is pictured in the H&H report? The report singles the rider out for an 'admirable display of horsemanship', and that he 'jumped round beautifully at a sensible pace to finish with ears pricked'.

Maybe it was another horse though, as the video of the grey showed (as DS says), a lot of whip and rein waving and made for uncomfortable viewing. The chestnut's round seemed much more accomplished.

Good on H&H, though, for the final paragraph of the report.
		
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Have they edited their report? I read it yesterday and could have sworn I saw some of those comments you've quoted above but they don't seem to be there now (unless I'm looking in the wrong place). I assumed it was another grey because like you, I found that section of the video very uncomfortable to watch, especially the finish where he was riding all out for what can have only been a very minor placing. There looked to be plenty of horses already home.

And yup, as one of the above posters mentioned, that run-in/finish area struck me as somewhat lacking.

I enjoyed watching the footage of the chestnut though.


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## Tiddlypom (20 February 2015)

Lexi_ said:



			Have they edited their report? I read it yesterday and could have sworn I saw some of those comments you've quoted above but they don't seem to be there now (unless I'm looking in the wrong place).
		
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The report and photo I'm referring to is on p60 of this week's paper edition of H&H. The photographed rider has a strap around his helmet which could be a hatcam band. He is also riding one handed and waving his whip at the horse, in the manner in which the video rider appeared to do (and rather too often for my liking).

Thoroughly agree that the run in and finish area seemed to be far too cramped and inadequate.


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## marmalade76 (21 February 2015)

Shrek-Eventing-SW said:



http://www.golden-button.co.uk/golden-button-challenge-review-statement/

That is a statement on the Golden Button website.

I happen to know one of the fallers and I've heard that response times to the injured were terrible, with only 2 paramedics to cover the whole 60 riders. 

Having watched the video, another thing that worried me was how short the run in was after the finishing posts. These horses would have been galloping and jumping for 3 miles at a fair speed and then have to come to almost a stand still in what looked like a very crowded area. At least at point to points and "proper" racecourses, the horses can gradually decrease speed instead of having to be pulled up to a stop almost. 

I have no reason to dislike the event, from what I could see on the videos, the majority of the horses looked fit and I certainly know that the people I actually know who took part, are all very experienced hunt/point to point jockeys who are more than capable of completing the race and not only that, but who know how to get the horses prepared for a race of this nature.

I do think however, that the organisers need to review the location of the event for next year because this is England, we are going to get unexpected rain and the ground has to hold up, or failing that, the event needs to be postponed. Not only that, but the area after the finishing posts definitely needs to be extended into a large field where the horses aren't all going to be on top of each other (for want of a better expression)
		
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Agree with you, he collecting ring at the end that included the finish was tiny.


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## amandaco2 (21 February 2015)

Looks horrific to me, not something id risk doing on my own horses nor enjoy watching others risk theirs....


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## MagicMelon (21 February 2015)

Looks awful, sure probably "fun" for the riders but why put your horse at so much risk?  I wouldn't ask my horse to gallop for 3 miles through deep mud and try to jump in and out of it whilst trying to swerve out of the way of other horses. Not surprised there were horses killed. Some people just take it too far IMO.


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