# Lame on both hinds, my poor, sore horse.



## Spot_the_Risk (25 April 2015)

Arrived at the field this morning to find Tinner having a snooze lying down, when he finally got up he was not at all right, couldn't decide which foot to bear weight on, didn't want to walk, roach back.  Clicky left stifle a,d dropped left hip.  Panic!  Called vet as I though maybe somehow he had broken a bone somewhere, in the meantime he had walked a little.  Vet had a good feel and gentle manipulation etc, couldn't find anything obvious, not lammi, not azoturia, slightly raised digital pulse, six hours later and he's just the same but now his breathing rate has increased a fair bit.  I'm not looking for a wonder diagnosis, but a few H&H vibes and good wishes would be nice for my poor Tinner. He's not six years old yet, and vet couldn't rule out that there might just be a hairline break somewhere deep...


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## Traveller59 (25 April 2015)

Sorry to hear this.

Must admit I'd be thinking that lameness in both hinds at this time of year combined with digital pulses would be pointing towards lammi.... I'd treat for that in the mean time, then review.


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## Spot_the_Risk (25 April 2015)

Yes I know what you mean, except she was completely sure.  He was last ridden on Friday of the previous week, eight days ago, and this Wednesday threw up a splint on his near fore, I have no idea what's going on but I'm very worried.  I am going back to the field in 20 minutes or so prepared to call the vet again and ready to go back to work to collect a lot of bedding (all my horses live out...)


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## ester (25 April 2015)

Poor tinner, I wouldn't rule out lami without an xray (and even then that is sort of after the event) I would think best to treat as a possibility in case at the moment.


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## skint1 (25 April 2015)

Aw poor boy, and what a worry for you. I hope you get to the bottom of it soon, sending you both good thoughts x


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## Tiddlypom (25 April 2015)

All best vibes for Tinner.

We found a neighbours mare in a similar pickle when neighbour was away on holiday. My immediate thought was lami (as she was overweight), but vet diagnosed it as fractured wing of ilium. She came good after 10 or so weeks box rested in cross ties.


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## EquiEquestrian556 (25 April 2015)

Poor Tinner! Sending lots of healing vibes for him, hope you find out what it is.
Please keep us updated xx


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## Archie73 (25 April 2015)

Has the vet ruled out poisining? Wish you the best? X


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## Princess16 (25 April 2015)

Hoping Tinners is better soon , positive vibes from me


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## _HP_ (25 April 2015)

ester said:



			Poor tinner, I wouldn't rule out lami without an xray (and even then that is sort of after the event) I would think best to treat as a possibility in case at the moment.
		
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Agree with this.
My friends mare was like this and had started chewing on the heels of her back feet. Friend thought lami on her hinds but X-rays showed rotation in both fronts. The back feet were fine but sore because o the extra weight they were carrying.


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## Spot_the_Risk (25 April 2015)

Thank you everyone, I am hoping that it really is a simple answer, vet said he was very tight in all the muscles over the rump so it could even be a hard kick with a haematoma brewing in there somewhere... Poor lad is walking steadily and slowly in a straight line, very obviously lame when he tries to turn.  She did say it wasn't impossible that there's a hairline crack deep in the area, further investigation if required, I guess it is a few days of wait and see.  She wanted him out, felt pottering about in the field was better than standing in.  Tinner is feeling very sorry for himself and is looking for cuddles which is endearing, but I'd rather have him fit and well (and if the splint could disappear too that would,be a bonus!)


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## touchstone (26 April 2015)

I'm afraid I'd be treating as laminitis too, years ago I was told mine didn't have laminitis by a vet, it was only x rays at a later date that proved she did.  The muscles over the quarters would also be tight with laminitis.  I'd be getting him off the grass - better safe than sorry until you know exactly what is going on.


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## Spot_the_Risk (26 April 2015)

Vet out again at 6am, tinnerhad shallow breathing and was sweaty and shifting weight from side to side on his hinds.  So we've had all hooves tested, nothing there but it could be a deep abscess.  Had an internal, nothing obvious.  Definitely not laminitis.  He's now in on a deep shavings bed, on soaked hay and strong drugs, feeling a bit better too.  The other two horses are doing shifts in and out so he isn't alone...


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## Britestar (26 April 2015)

Mine last year had sinking in both hind feet, but the 4 weeks before they sunk, did not have any digital pulses, nor was he reactive to hoof testers. I still wouldn't rule out laminitis, but at least he's getting the right treatment regardless.
Good luck. Mine was in for 11 months!


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## EquiEquestrian556 (26 April 2015)

Poor boy. Does the vet have any idea what it could be? Truly hope he'll be OK.
Do please keep us updated.
Lots of healing vibes for Tinner xxx


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## touchstone (26 April 2015)

Oh dear, I'd be interested to know why your vet says it is definitely not laminitis though, it sounds like pretty classic symptoms, mine recently had a mild attack in the hind feet and was weight shifting and had a slightly raised digital pulse.   At least he's off the grass, so doing the right thing if it is.


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## Spot_the_Risk (26 April 2015)

Vet is convinced not laminitis, the problems seem to stem from either the pelvis area or (please God!) left foot ie abscess.  Even if it is Lami he's now in, on a deep bed, on soaked hay, on pain relief so treatment is essentially the same.  It's so difficult when there isn't an obvious issue, I've not had anything like this today (my lot are generally healthy cob types), the worst I've had before is an open kick wound that way you can see the problem.  

Went to the local clay shoot for an hour to take our mind of it, bumped into the local knackerman, all I needed!!


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## Traveller59 (26 April 2015)

Agree with touchstone, I'd be interested to know how the vet can say definitely not laminitis,  because the only real and scientific way to rule out lammi is x rays and close examination of the white line.   Unfortunately bruising may not be evident for a few weeks.  
 What does your farrier say?  I've had an incorrect diagnosis from the vet in the past, but Farrier was spot on, and now any lameness issues I have, I tend to think laminitis first, then anything else secondary. 
Sounds like you're doing the best thing with deep bed and soaked hay.
Good luck, hope things improve.


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## touchstone (26 April 2015)

Hopefully it will be just an abscess then, the raised digital pulse would shout that at least it is the foot that is the issue to me, so fingers crossed he just needs a bit of time, but I would keep treating as laminitis until proven otherwise.   Fingers crossed he makes a full and speedy recovery from whatever it is!


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## Spot_the_Risk (26 April 2015)

Digital pulse normal again this morning though, and only very slightly raised yesterday (I know not very technical but all four feet have felt normal temp to me all the way through).  I would prefer anything to a break...


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## nettle (26 April 2015)

Any sycamore trees near your field?


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## Spot_the_Risk (26 April 2015)

Thank you nettle, no there isn't, atypical myopathy has been ruled out.


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## Spot_the_Risk (26 April 2015)

Farrier's been, not laminitis, nothing obviously foot related, he too is thinking pelvis.


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## Tiddlypom (26 April 2015)

Tiddlypom said:



			vet diagnosed it as fractured wing of ilium. She came good after 10 or so weeks box rested in cross ties.
		
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Should read #hairline fracture of wing of ilium#, no displacement. Mare was very unhappy initially, and owner decided against transporting her to horsepital for confirmatory x rays. The diagnosis was based on clinical signs. She was a big shire cross mare, and a portable x ray wouldn't have been up to the job.


Advice was not to use painkillers, to keep her in enough pain to be reluctant to move, and she stayed in the crossties for over two months. She was absolutely forbidden to lie down, in case the fracture opened. Somehow she ended up in my stables, due to the owner being abroad when it initially happened.

The mare coped very well. We hung water buckets and haynets up within easy reach, and made sure something was turned out in close proximity at all times.


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## Yellow_Ducky (27 April 2015)

With it being both backs has the vet investigated to see if it is a possible Neurological issue?


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## Spot_the_Risk (27 April 2015)

Hi yellow sucky, no they haven't.  So far we are going down the box rest and bute route and waiting a few days to see if it eases as she is pretty convinced it's either the splits or a deep muscle problem somewhere in the pelvis area.  He's definitely improved today and yesterday, still very sore but better.  So worrying and frustrating.


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## touchstone (28 April 2015)

Glad to hear he's improving.


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## ester (30 April 2015)

How's he doing STR?


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## Spot_the_Risk (30 April 2015)

Hi ester, thanks for asking.  He's still on box rest, bright and happy and I've dropped from four to two bute a day today.  Vet is due back tomorrow pm to reassess.  He can walk in a fairly straight line now with only the occasional sway, the back is still tight, hind legs have stopped shaking, and his hind leg stride is now about two feet long, on Saturday it wasn't six inches so there is definite improvement.  Feet have remained cool throughout, there is heat equally on both sides on the stifles, the point of hips, and the poverty lines running down the quarters.  So whilst he is better than he was we still don't know what happened or exactly where and what the damage is, I think it's going to be a long haul...


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## EquiEquestrian556 (30 April 2015)

Spot_the_Risk said:



			Hi ester, thanks for asking.  He's still on box rest, bright and happy and I've dropped from four to two bute a day today.  Vet is due back tomorrow pm to reassess.  He can walk in a fairly straight line now with only the occasional sway, the back is still tight, hind legs have stopped shaking, and his hind leg stride is now about two feet long, on Saturday it wasn't six inches so there is definite improvement.  Feet have remained cool throughout, there is heat equally on both sides on the stifles, the point of hips, and the poverty lines running down the quarters.  So whilst he is better than he was we still don't know what happened or exactly where and what the damage is, I think it's going to be a long haul...
		
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Good to hear that there's some improvement. Hope that your vet can find out what's the matter with him.
Do keep us updated x


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## ester (1 May 2015)

thanks for the update, at least he has gone the right way poor chap. x


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## Sprout (1 May 2015)

So glad to hear he is improving with box rest etc, but what a worry for you. Hope the vet can give you a more definite diagnosis soon.

I found one of my terribly lame in both hinds one morning - vet diagnosed laminitis which was a huge shock as he was trim and on very little grass etc, but we then tested for Cushings and that was the cause.

Hope yours makes a full and speedy recovery.


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## Spot_the_Risk (1 May 2015)

Sprout, now your story is starting to sound familiar after today's vet visit.  Vet reckons it is probably laminitis but as your horse, not 'fat' related.  Possible a kind of toxic shock and we'll probably never find out what caused it, could be a reaction to the pain from doing the splits, could have eaten something he shouldn't have done.  Front shoes off now too, Tinner is stil on box rest for another week, treatment has been as if it's laminitis anyway so we're hopefully doing the right thing.  his stance is completely different to how it was on Saturday, then we was wobbling like a drunk and kind of cramped up behind, now he has a laminitis stance.  Do wish there was a way of kindling out what has caused this (mind reading skills required here!)


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## ester (1 May 2015)

Worth testing for cushings/Ems in case?


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## Spot_the_Risk (1 May 2015)

Yes I think various tests will be in order soon, ironically I just had my 23 year old tested for Cushings and he was clear.  I think we have many challenges ahead.


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## Britestar (2 May 2015)

Sorry to hear this.  Mines was a toxic cause as well.  Mke sure they xray the fronts as well.  Mine had in all 4 feet but the backs were worst. Next Monday is one year from the first day we noticed there was something wrong.  He's back out in a bare field now, not ridden yet but getting there.  I had an amazing vet and farrier who have worked together to get him right, and it defo hasn't been cheap,  but worth all the money and effort.


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## _HP_ (2 May 2015)

If you suspect laminitis and he has been in that much pain the X-rays really need to be taken ASAP to see what if any rotation there is so that it can be corrected straight away to make him more comfortable. Box rest and diet change alone won't help if there is rotation.
Re Cushings diagnosis....the test is only reliable alongside clinical signs as its very hard to detect in the early stages. No a negative result may be false if the hrse is showing clinical signs and should be repeated.

This is a useful site run by some very knowledgable people using the latest scientific research and their own experiences . 
http://www.thelaminitissite.org/laminitis.html


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## Spot_the_Risk (2 May 2015)

Thank you both.  My vet and farrier will work together on this, and I know I'll be seeing the vet very often for a long time yet.


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## Spot_the_Risk (2 May 2015)

HP, excellent site, thanks for that!


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## Britestar (2 May 2015)

Also check CARE about laminitis website
i can pm you info on the treatment we used when i get home.


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## Spot_the_Risk (20 May 2015)

An update.  Tinner has been definitely improving over the last couple of weeks, to the point that he's been on one Danilon per day and 2mg sedalin(equivalent, cannot remember the name).  He's been in the stable except for a couple of occasions when we needed to see how he moved.  The muscles over the quarters have relaxed and he happily moves around on his deep shavings bed.  He's been lying down a lot, and the heat in the hips and stifles has gone.

Vet and farrier visited together today for X-rays, these showed a very slight rotation in all four feet, slightly more in front, and generally less than Was expected.  Walked him out and vet was very happy with how he moved.  Farrier has trimmed accordingly today and will glue on Impriint shoes in a fortnight, the next time it will be heart bars.  Vet a week after that for tests/assessment, he will be testing for EMS, if that proves clear then we won't know what caused it.  We will build a track system if he can go out on grass again, I am thinking he will need a muzzle too and still come in for half a day on soaked hay, but we'll deal with that later.

So it could be a lot worse, and boy am I grateful that I have a good vet and farrier, and also that they work well together.  Tinner was entranced by five people, two laptops and a lot of high tech expensive equipment in his stable!


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## Britestar (20 May 2015)

Glad today went well, Imprints are great, but expensive  I used them on another horse a few yers ago, and they certainley did the trick.
Mine hated me for the starved night before the insulin bloods!
Hopefully you'll get some good results, and the rotation will begin to improve shortly.


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## _HP_ (21 May 2015)

Glad he is improving...
Barefoot is definitely best if you can do it with laminitis 
Did you test for Cushings? Finding the cause is the key to preventing it in future and if it's Cushings it can be treated.
Re his stance behind...he may benefit from some bodywork to help ease the muscles that have been tense through the pain of his feet.


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## ycbm (21 May 2015)

I'm really glad he is getting better. I have had a fit six year old with it too.. I found out later that my land is very high in manganese and iron and that those prevent copper absorption, and that lack of copper disrupts insulin usage. You could perhaps consider putting him on an iron free, high copper supplement like Forage Plus our Progressive Earth sell. My other horse was fine, he was just more susceptible to it.

I think your vet let you down a bit to be honest. She told you to turn him out when even posters on here were telling you it sounded like laminitis. It was only for a short time and probably did no more harm, but I'm not quite sure she justifies the faith you have in her. If things don't go smoothly (iI expect they will)  can i suggest that you get a second opinion?


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## Britestar (21 May 2015)

_HP_ said:



			Barefoot is definitely best if you can do it with laminitis
		
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I think it needs to be on a case by case basis. Mine would have been dead without heartbars TBH. Ultimately I would like him to go barefoot, but even a year down the line he is not ready yet. Its something I have discussed with both the farrier and Vet, and they are both happy to try when the time is suitable.


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## Spot_the_Risk (21 May 2015)

The laminitis is a secondary to whatever happened initially, there have been two vets and my farrier and so I'm happy and agree with what they found.  I don't want to go barefoot from choice, although will do whatever the farrier and vet think is best, and imprints and heartbars are on the future menu for now.  Thanks for all your input, I am hoping that one day I will have a happy six year old that I can work on.


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## _HP_ (24 May 2015)

I think the main reason for barefoot initially is so that if there is rotation, it can be trimmed more regularly than usual to correct it.
A compromised hoof will often grow much quicker than a normal one.
Barefoot just makes it much easier to treat and to detect any flares ups in the early stages of recovery.
http://www.thelaminitissite.org/realigning-trim.html


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## _HP_ (24 May 2015)

Just to mention...once the cause has been identified and the laminitis correctly treated, there is no reason why lamintics can't return to a fully functioning life. It's not a death sentence anymore but there is a lot of conflicting and outdated information out there. I always mention The Laminitis Site because it's well researched and up to date .

Good luck with your horse OP


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## Spot_the_Risk (25 May 2015)

Thanks HP, he's had his shoes off pretty much since this happened and has had a trim after vet and farrier assessed him together, of course I'm going to do whatever is best for him, and hopefully we an come through this and learn from it....


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## Spot_the_Risk (3 June 2015)

Imprints on this afternoon, wow Britestar you were right, they are VERY expensive but there was an instant improvement in his ability to walk - first time out of the stable for a week or two and he fair towed me towards the field, two weeks ago he had to be encouraged to walk at all.  Farrier says pulses in each foot are still very high, higher than he would expect, so I'm going to ring the vet about that tomorrow...


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## Britestar (3 June 2015)

At least he's comfier now, even though your bank account won't be!
Keep him inside - its the best thing for him.


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## Fun Times (3 June 2015)

Gosh what a horrible few weeks it must have been for you OP. If you don't already have one it may be worth investing in either an equilibrium massage pad or the massage mitt (or similar products) to see if that helps ease the muscles in his back and rump. I realise this is secondary to the laminitis, but it may help him feel more comfortable. Good luck, i hope he returns to full soundness soon.


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## _HP_ (4 June 2015)

Spot_the_Risk said:



			Imprints on this afternoon, wow Britestar you were right, they are VERY expensive but there was an instant improvement in his ability to walk - first time out of the stable for a week or two and he fair towed me towards the field, two weeks ago he had to be encouraged to walk at all.  Farrier says pulses in each foot are still very high, higher than he would expect, so I'm going to ring the vet about that tomorrow...
		
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If he has pulses he really should still be on box rest...certainly no grass

You really need to find the cause as he shouldn't still be so sore . Have your vet tested for EMS and Cushings yet? And has the rotation been corrected?


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## eggs (4 June 2015)

Another who wouldn't give him any grass whilst he has pulses.  In fact I would want him off all meds and totally comfortable for at least a week before putting back on grass.

Some years ago one of my horses got stress induced laminitis - he very definitely was not overweight and did not enjoy the enforced food restriction.  He had 6 months box rest before being allowed to start work again and then another month before going out in the field - fortunately he was a very level headed horse.  He returned to full work and never had another episode.

Hope all continues well with your boy.


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## Pearlsasinger (4 June 2015)

I had a 6 yr old Shire with laminitis.  She was, if anything, underweight.  The vet (from a specialist equine practice) had no clue what was wrong - diagnosed abscess, even though she also had skin lesions.  Blood tests apparently showed nothing useful.  After about 3 months of no real improvement, following vet instructions to the letter, she was pts when she foundered.  My farrier still blames the vet, many years and horses later.  Research seems to suggest that she had some form of Cushings which could have been improved if she had been treated properly at the beginning.
Please ask for a 2nd opinion, from a different practice.


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## _HP_ (5 June 2015)

If a horse is still sore and on medication a week after getting laminitis then the cause hasn't been identified and treated.
Box rest and diet isn't enough if there are underlying causes such as cushings or if there is rotation which can really only be seen by X-ray.
The trouble with laminitis is that there is so much conflicting and out dated info out there. 
OP...if you have Facebook, try the group EMS, PPID (cushings) and Laminitis UK for some great help and advice


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## Regandal (5 June 2015)

There are alternatives to heartbars.  My gelding went from putty pads straight into RX therapy boots with pads.  Fabulous boots.  He came sound.


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## Spot_the_Risk (8 June 2015)

Ah he's not on grass and still on box rest, the lead into the field (about a 20 foot walk) was simply to see how he moved.  Cushings and EMS tests on Thursday.


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## paddy555 (9 June 2015)

Regandal said:



			There are alternatives to heartbars.  My gelding went from putty pads straight into RX therapy boots with pads.  Fabulous boots.  He came sound.
		
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yes they are brilliant. They would be my first choice.


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## Spot_the_Risk (12 June 2015)

Thank God, tests show no Cushings and no EMS.  We can only assume it was a toxic laminitis although we won't ever know exactly what caused it.  We won't be using the field that caused the problem again, and will be implementing a track system for all three boys.  Tinner has left the stable and been released into a small paddock for 30 mins this evening, vet says build up to two hours, lead out in hand and/or ride, this will take as long as needed but he should be out full time again at some point and back in full work.  He was predictably so very excited to be out, it was buck buck buck!


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## Peregrine Falcon (12 June 2015)

Glad tests showed nothing nasty!

Fingers crossed he's back to his normal self soon.


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## Archie73 (16 June 2015)

Spot_the_Risk said:



			Thank God, tests show no Cushings and no EMS.  We can only assume it was a toxic laminitis although we won't ever know exactly what caused it.  We won't be using the field that caused the problem again, and will be implementing a track system for all three boys.  Tinner has left the stable and been released into a small paddock for 30 mins this evening, vet says build up to two hours, lead out in hand and/or ride, this will take as long as needed but he should be out full time again at some point and back in full work.  He was predictably so very excited to be out, it was buck buck buck!
		
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Glad things are on the mend. Just a note to say my boy suffers with toxic laminitis when fed anything that has been fertilised with nitrogen compound. Took years to work out.,,,,


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## Spot_the_Risk (13 July 2015)

Thanks Archie, and everyone who's taken the time to respond.  11 weeks in now and Tinner is on his second set of imprint shoes, in by day on soaked hay and out at night with a muzzle on.  When the shoes came off we could see the extent of the bruising on all four feet, looked pretty grim to me but farrier was unsurprised.  I have no idea how everything will pan out long term, I seem to spend a lot of time stareing at him and scratching my head (and mucking out and soaking hay)...


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## Spot_the_Risk (13 August 2015)

A month since my last post, and there has been great improvement.  He still has Imprints on, farrier due Monday.  On the vets advice I have ridden Tinner a couple of times with no problems at all, maximum 20 minutes on flattish roads, walk only of course.  He's out by night, in by day on soaked hay.

A couple of weeks ago I said to my OH that I had a gut feeling we were over the worst of it and had turned the corner... And that evening Tinner jumped over the barn door, a good four feet high.  He didn't even have a good reason for it as his mates were stood in their usual stables and nothing was different at all, so it can only have been high spirits... Anyway, no harm done!


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## Britestar (14 August 2015)

That's great news.  He's coming on well.


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