# New Foal, but has a problem. What to do. VIDEO



## RuthnMeg (23 February 2011)

Born on monday, 3 weeks over due. 
As you can see from this vid all is not well with her legs. So, what can be done to help and how long will it take to get 'normal' if at all.
The breeder is not happy with her, and after losing a lovely colt a few weeks ago their 2011 breeding season has not started well.

These horses are in my care, and I do not own them.
I can't seem to get the vid to upload straight, so appologies to any cranked necks later!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IGQ-Cg2TOq4


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## equinim (23 February 2011)

i have seen foals a lot worse than this that have came straight.
it has just been very tight and restricted in the womb but now out with excercise im sure will straighten up. both front and hinds legs need to lenghten which may come on own or if not poss vet would rec treatment.
personally i would not have as thick a bed as makes foal walking around harder work,
good luck im sure all b ok in few days/weeks


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## SusieT (23 February 2011)

Can't see very well in straw and light and camera quality..
If concerned get the vet out..


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## RuthnMeg (23 February 2011)

I was reluctant to bed down so much, due to 'struggling-to-walk foal,  but did as I was told! I might just be a bit sneaky and accidently take out a bit more next time?!
She is very sweet, and alert but the way the breeders were talking, it gave me the awful impression they want to get rid of her as she isn't worth 'getting right'. I hope she proves to be a feisty little thing that can prove them right, although I can't see her being a champion sprinter.


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## SKY (23 February 2011)

i cant seem to view video, but if the foal is born and legs are not straight, is that right.  i always foal my mare in field, i have had a 3 foals in that last 18 years that have been born like that. i put mare and foal in a field with a steep hill, fence the hill of if need be, i am lucky i have 3 fields that is all steep hills.  leave them there and feed as normal rug if you need to but the foal needs a steep hill to straighten legs, i have had a foal that i was told i would be saver putting down told this by a vet, i put on a very steep hill in 10 days -2 weeks was brilliant vet couldnt believe it thats a few years ago now.  was told this by a old horse man.  it has worked on my 3 foals.  i am lucky to have 3 fields all hill but if you havent 1 field fence of a steep hill, it makes the use the legs even just getting up and down and just standing on it makes the legs work and straighten all the time, and i mean i had a foal that was really bad and legs are straight as anything now.  good luck


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## Maesfen (23 February 2011)

It won't let me see the video so I presume it has bent legs then time is a marvellous healer.
We had one here that was very small (first foal) and his legs were crossed over at the knees and hocks, if you looked at him from behind, it looked like an X.  Vet said to give him a few days and assess then, if there was improvement, it would probably come better.  Within a month you could hardly tell, he just straightened up of his own accord.  He was only allowed out for an hour a day and was changed onto shavings to help him get through the bed better, as described before.  He ended up racing (NH) and had several successful seasons, even winning for Sir Clement Freud.
Another filly was born with a very crooked hind leg.   Perfect until the hock downwards when the leg went quite straight to the ground, no shaping of the fetlock on the inside at all and a very bent cannon bone (think almost quarter circle shaped bow!)  I thought the worse but vet persuaded me to try to leave her alone.  Again, limited exercise for the first month, by six months it was hardly noticeable and if you didn't know about it you'd never even notice.  She's now hunting and RC, having a ball.  BTW, neither of them were ever lame or unlevel, just very dodgy to look at.

Pics of the colt, and he was much improved then but you can still see


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## RuthnMeg (23 February 2011)

link should work better now.


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## Maesfen (23 February 2011)

Still not working for me.


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## SKY (23 February 2011)

just found a few pics of a filly foal, one is when she was born, look at legs and other is 2 weeks later being on a steep hilled field.


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## sprite1978 (23 February 2011)

It does have a bilateral fixed flexion, but to me the fact that its bilateral is a positive. Boney abnormality in both is unlikely, so id say its just a case of time until the soft tissues stretch out.


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## Enfys (23 February 2011)

I had a filly born with legs that _looked_ like that, impossible to say if it _is_ the same of course. What is the Vet saying? 

Mine was on restricted exercise, 15 minutes out twice a day, and from Day 1 I was doing physio with her. My Vet had me back her into a corner (for support) and I was doing foreleg stretches (and pushing down on the knee, sounds worse than it was) to strengthen the leg. By Day 3 smartie pants had it sussed, she'd see me coming, go off to her corner and hold her leg out for me 

She's coming back to me this weekend as a 3 year old, legs are sound as a pound and apparently, so her owner says, she still holds her front legs out straight in front for you!

I wouldn't give up on this one yet, I have seen far worse get better.


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## Gucci_b (23 February 2011)

Lovely looking foal, I know nothing about this problem as a 1st time breeder (foal due in April) The advise given on here is good advise, but i would be consulting with my vet   keep us all posted on the outcome.


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## GinnieRedwings (23 February 2011)

From the video, which isn't very good, I wouldn't say you needed to call the meat man just yet 

Basically, as others have said, I've seen a lot worse, & by the time they were 2 years old, you just wouldn't have known. Depending on exactly what the problem is (a vet specialising in orthopaedic issues in foal needs to be called, I think), an awful lot can usually be done, from stretches, restricted turnout, corrective farriery etc...

I know she doesn't belong to you. Are the owners experienced in breeding? Is this a racehorse? Are owners not bothered trying to put it right because they think it is unlikely to win a race if legs aren't perfect?

I don't think this is what is wrong with this foal, but have a look at the following article. When it was first published, it was linked to a forum and lots of racing TB breeders/stud owners/stud workers & managers came in and said a lot of the TB foals are born with such difformities... often doesn't stop them from having good racing careers:

http://horsebreeders.myfastforum.org/archive/my-experience-with-carpal-valgus...__o_t__t_5911.html


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## cptrayes (23 February 2011)

Personally I'd be quite surprised if that filly doesn't look "normal" by the end of the week if she can walk in straw like that and was born yesterday. Her tendons and ligaments just aren't long enough. They'll stretch. I'd turn them out and get her as much movement as I could.


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## rachi0 (23 February 2011)

Judging by the video.. (which again.. isn't very clear... due to deep bedding!) the foal has contracted tendons both fronts...

Have the vet out asap to have a look... If it was my foal... it would be bandaging both fronts.. and depending on the severity of the contracture (I can't tell from the video) - possibly talking to the vet about oxytet to help relax the legs. 

Also.. another thought might be to give it some pain relief.. upright / contracted foals tend to have a bit of a cycle going on.. whereby.. they are upright + over at the knee.. which eventually becomes a bit painful (they won't be lame just uncomfortable) - which makes them more over at the knee... - AGAIN - VETS ADVICE is crucial for any of the above mentioned.... I am just talking from my experience and advice I've had from vets I have worked with.

restricted exercise is important.. but also.. they do need to move and exercise a bit so they don't just concentrate their energy into getting fat and heavy... - which won't help their legs!!

Again.. can't see all that clearly.. but the foal looks weak and windswept behind. that will resolve itself with time when the foal strengthens. But it would be an idea for the vet and farrier to have a look at the foal sooner rather than later.


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## JanetGeorge (23 February 2011)

Foal has contracted tendons and is a bit windswept.  I would have the vet look at it with a view to a shot of terramycin - or two (helps with the tendons for some strange reason.)  As others have said, less bedding will make it easier for foal to get the exercise he needs (but not TOO much until he straightens behind.)  I've seen FAR worse come good - and would expect that one to be pretty much normal within a week.


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## wonder (23 February 2011)

We had a foal like this 2 years ago.  It was exercised in our school to start with for 15 mins for the first 2 weeks and then gradually made it up to an hour.  The contracted tendons did come right without shoes.  But her back leg had a sway on it and thankfully other half is a farrier so we put a lateral extension plastic shoe on it and it did come right.  For the contracted tendons we did exercises every day with the foal gently extending the legs 10 time forwards to encourage the tendons to stretch after 2 weeks you would never know its legs were contracted.  Hope this helps.


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## henryhorn (23 February 2011)

I have seen a lot worse come completely right. 
It takes a few days to straighten out anyway, but you can help by gently pulling the leg towards you and massaging it. 
I would in this case ask the farrier to check the foal in a week's time but I reckon within two weeks it will look hugely better. 
I would not reject it if I were the owner, it should be fine given time and a careful eye on it.


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## shirleyno2 (23 February 2011)

Hi, if little un was here here, my vet would prob oxytet and cast leg for 24 hours, but that would need doing immediatly by experienced vet, and hardly any straw or turnout, needs to strengthen up behind. I had a really badly windswept one last year, she's grand now.
Has vet seen foal?


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## Amymay (24 February 2011)

What is your vet saying OP???


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## Tempi (24 February 2011)

amymay said:



			What is your vet saying OP???
		
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^^^ This - theres lots of good advice on here but IMO i would be asking the vet to take a look.


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## Touchwood (24 February 2011)

God, please don't give it plenty of turnout as suggested!!  It needs restricting!  It also needs far less bedding.
That foal is not too bad, the vet might inject it for the front tendons which are a tad contracted, but I've seen worse ones come right on their own.  Those back legs will strengthen and straighten up a lot on their own.  I would have a very good farrier look at it from a week old though, just in case it needs a bit of extra help.


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## Amymay (24 February 2011)

God, please don't give it plenty of turnout as suggested!
		
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Completely agree.  TOTALLY agree.

My own experience is that in situations like this strict restriction on turnout is needed.

But obviously - your very experienced equine vet will (hopefully) have told you this.  Or will be telling you this when they come and see the foal.........


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## RuthnMeg (24 February 2011)

I have just started to look after some mares who are due to foal. This is ''my'' first foal, and as I was gawping at her the owner/breeder was telling me how utterly disapointed they are. I am not in charge of making vet calls (unless emergancy of course) and this filly has been seen by a vet, and the vet was due again yesterday PM after I went off duty. I will find out more tomorow when I return as I am only p/t.
I only asked on here if there was anyting I could do, and the feeling I got was to reduce the amount of bedding she has, which goes against what I was told to do, but I will try to be sneaky. The owner gave the impression that he was so disapointed he didn't think she was worth 'keeping', now take that how you will. She is a TB, bred for the track and first impression on filly was she is never going to be a champion.
Personally, I have never seen a foal with such windswept hocks, and that is my worry, not the contracted tendons which I know have a very good habit of correcting themselves.
I hope that the next foals (due 3rd march onwards) will be big strong healthy colts, which is what they have ordered!


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## RuthnMeg (24 February 2011)

Should add, that I suggested to owner that foal should stay IN for quite a while, and I hope that my words of wisdom have been heard. 
I will say again, I AM NOT THE OWNER, just the groom and upto a point do as Iam told!


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## Amymay (24 February 2011)

New Foal, but has a problem. What to do. VIDEO - Page 3 - Horse and Hound Forums
		
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How disappointing that another novice breeder with no clue as to what they are doing fecks up the life of a young animal who stands every chance of having the most positive outcome when it comes to those legs.  I too have seen worse - with the adult horse ending up having perfect limb conformation....

I guess at the end of the day OP it is up to the YO who has ultimate charge over his equine responsibilities to start making some decisions on how to deal with this situation - both in terms of the responsibility to the foal but also the position you may have been put in.

Makes me so cross.  And days like this I really think that numpty novice breeders should be banned!!!!!!


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## RuthnMeg (24 February 2011)

I am not a numpty, just the groom. I've done 2 mornings p/t work and feel that I am learning something new as have not dealt with mares and foals in 15 years! 
The owner has been breeding for many years, and I respect his words, I have to! If he tells me how disapointing this filly is, then it comes across as 'bad' for the filly.


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## Amymay (24 February 2011)

RuthnMeg said:



			I am not a numpty, just the groom. I've done 2 mornings p/t work and feel that I am learning something new as have not dealt with mares and foals in 15 years! 
The owner has been breeding for many years, and I respect his words, I have to! If he tells me how disapointing this filly is, then it comes across as 'bad' for the filly.
		
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I'm not insinuating you are a numpty.  And as for the owner - respect is gained, not assumed.

As I said though, ultimately the responsibilty for the welfare of this little scrap to ensure the best positive outcome lies with the YO - not you, who is merely following orders.  And hopefully he will step up to the mark.

And as for the owner - if he has many years of experience I'll eat my hat.


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## Maesfen (24 February 2011)

amymay said:



			And as for the owner - if he has many years of experience I'll eat my hat.
		
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RM has already said he is an owner with many years experience and I hope he will do what is right for the foal but I imagine his attitude is only that of deep disappointment,  which I know from my own experience, can take a couple of days to change and look on the positive side, especially where stock that is intended for a working career as this one is are concerned.  I understand his reaction only too well I'm afraid and can only sympathise with him.


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## Amymay (24 February 2011)

I understand his reaction only too well I'm afraid and can only sympathise with him.
		
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But you've bred enough foals to know how crooked they can be initially - and how well they usually straighten up.

Sorry, he sounds like a knob.


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## cptrayes (24 February 2011)

I'm not a breeder though I've seen much benter foals than this one come right and I am interested, not trying to cause a fight.

For those who are saying she should not be turned out and saying that they speak from experience, do you have experience of turning one like this out and having it go wrong, or have they been kept in because we humans (and some vets fearing being sued) like to err on the side of caution, and because they came right it has been assumed that they came right because they were kept in?

If I had a bent foal I would want it to have as much movement as it felt it was happy to take while its body was as light as possible to avoid overdue strain. In a few days she will weigh 50% more than the weight she was born and that won't help her at all.

So - any genuine comparisons showing the old-wives-tale-approach which other posters have had such success with compared with keeping in?


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## Amymay (24 February 2011)

It's because veterinary science has shown that restricting the movement will _not_ put undue strain on weekend tendons and ligaments.  You risk making the problem much worse with too much exercise in the first couple of weeks, whilst they are straightening and strengthening.  

You do turn out - but with restriction.

Nothing to do with old wives tales.  Just good old science and common sense.


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## Spring Feather (24 February 2011)

amymay said:



			But you've bred enough foals to know how crooked they can be initially - and how well they usually straighten up.

Sorry, he sounds like a knob.
		
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He doesn't sound like a knob to me .  He just sounds like a disappointed breeder.  The more foals you have that come out straight, the bigger the disappointment when one comes out overly curled.  Yes they do normally straighten up, and as seasoned breeders we all know this, however it doesn't change the initial upset of it.  People who have only had one foal or are novice breeders might not be so disappointed because they're so caught up in the "miracle" of it all.  Experienced breeders have the hope that these foals straighten but it's natural for them to assess foals immediately at birth and legs like this are an emotional setback even when they know the chances are that the legs will straighten in time.


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## Amymay (24 February 2011)

The more foals you have that come out straight, the bigger the disappointment when one comes out overly curled.
		
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Foals very rarely come out straight - and as a seasoned breeder he will (or should) know this - and again should recognise quite quickly the signs indicating a severe problem or a minor one which will rectify quite quickly.

I've never known a breeder disappointed with a crooked foal - because it's pretty much a fact of life - and very rarely a situation that can't be rectified.


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## Spring Feather (24 February 2011)

amymay said:



			Foals very rarely come out straight - and as a seasoned breeder he will (or should) know this - and again should recognise quite quickly the signs indicating a severe problem or a minor one which will rectify quite quickly.

I've never known a breeder disappointed with a crooked foal - because it's pretty much a fact of life - and very rarely a situation that can't be rectified.
		
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How many foals have you personally bred?   I've bred lots and I would say 95% of my foals come out straight.  We must move in very different breeding circles as every breeder I know has been disappointed when they've had the odd foal come out crooked.


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## Touchwood (24 February 2011)

Crooked foals are certainly not a rareity, and they are becoming more and more common as generally they are caused by the mare being fed too much!  With modern stud feeds and this constant fashion to have horses too fat, it happens a lot unfortunately.

Regarding the restriction on exercise, the main problem is that a foal does not generally know how much activity their weak or crooked legs can take.  So they will boing around, mum often doesn't help either as something they keep the foal moving rather than letting it rest.  When the muscles get too tired you are then left with the tendons and ligaments supporting more....they then continue to develop in the incorrect way rather than evening out.


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## tristar (24 February 2011)

people lose foals altogether, this one is alive and walking round quite well i think, looks like wants to move around a bit more, i've seen legs going in all directions come right, its a lovely foal the owners should realise how lucky they are.


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## ihatework (24 February 2011)

amymay said:



			Foals very rarely come out straight - and as a seasoned breeder he will (or should) know this - and again should recognise quite quickly the signs indicating a severe problem or a minor one which will rectify quite quickly.

I've never known a breeder disappointed with a crooked foal - because it's pretty much a fact of life - and very rarely a situation that can't be rectified.
		
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I can't see what the breeder (or OP) has done wrong and I think you are being a bit harsh.
The foal is on restriction, and has seen vet.
A breeder is perfectly entitled to be disappointed in what they have bred, and there is no real indication from this thread that they are disappointed purely because of the limb issues - perhaps they are disappointed with the overall quality of the foal?
Honestly, do long time experienced breeder like everything they breed - if they are realists I suspect not!


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## magic104 (24 February 2011)

OMG how confusing for anyone reading these posts.  I have not read them all but enough, one person saying turn out on a steep hill, plenty of excercise & those (like I have been informed by vets) to restrict turn-out.  Your first port of call should always ask your vet, if you want clarification or other views then ask on the forum.  But your vet is the one seeing & feeling what is going on, the forum it far too remote.  I am just wondering if the vet had been (would not have thought so judging by the bed), so (and forgive me if this was futher along in the thread) has he/she been now & what was the verdict.  Will slap myself for you if this has been updated!


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## Rollin (24 February 2011)

Magic I do agree.  The TB breeders on horsebreeders forum gave very good advice last year to a very crooked foal .. the results were amazing and a full set of photos posted.

They recommended restricted T/O to begin with i.e stable, t/o stable etc for short periods.

Worth asking Lynne for a ref to the photos.

The filly did very well.


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## Sabre Girl (24 February 2011)

I have seen  a few foals like this & all the advice re restricted turn out & the leg stretching excerises is completely right. Re the bed I have always been advised by the vet to get rid of the straw & use rubber matting & a thin layer of shavings so that the faol is standing & walking on a flat surface. Walking on a lumpy thick bed will not help at all to encourage the legs to straighten & will encourage the swing of the back legs. I have yet to see one that didn't come right. Hope this helps.


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## cptrayes (24 February 2011)

amymay said:



			It's because veterinary science has shown that restricting the movement will _not_ put undue strain on weekend tendons and ligaments.  You risk making the problem much worse with too much exercise in the first couple of weeks, whilst they are straightening and strengthening.  

You do turn out - but with restriction.

Nothing to do with old wives tales.  Just good old science and common sense.
		
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But it's not science is it Amymay? If no-one has taken a set of bent foals (due to soft tissue stretching and/or contraction, not joint/bone malformation which quite obviously will not correct itself), matched them for bentness, turned half of them out and restricted the exercise of half of them and checked them at maturity, then there is nothing whatsoever to show that it is the restricted exercise that is resolving the problem or not.

The old wives tale is the turnout. The modern way is to err on the side of caution and keep in. There is no scientific evidence, as far as I can find out, to show whether one of these approaches is better than the other at straightening a bent foal or not.


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## Touchwood (24 February 2011)

Actually, I think there is some scientific basis to the research....carried out by the TB industry IIRC.  I will try and find it!!


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## Maesfen (25 February 2011)

cptrayes said:



			The old wives tale is the turnout. The modern way is to err on the side of caution and keep in. There is no scientific evidence, as far as I can find out, to show whether one of these approaches is better than the other at straightening a bent foal or not.
		
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But what if you're wrong and you just happened to have been lucky that yours have gone right when they could have gone the other way?  
Do you really think people should risk turning out like you did just on your say so when all the veterinary evidence and experience says to be very careful and not over tire the foal and the limbs when they are compromised already?  Yes, there is the case for controlled exercise but not to the extent of physically tiring the foal (which could/would happen in your example) on already compromised limbs; little and often would be better than continuous I feel.
I, for one,  would not risk it with a foal of mine I'm afraid and would err on the tried and tested way, the side of caution but it's up to each to make their own minds up to what they would do because every foal and circumstances will be different.

OP.  How's foal today?


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## RuthnMeg (25 February 2011)

OP. How's foal today? 


Foaly is ok. She HAS to go out for 1 hour each day, any more than that she gets tired and weak, and any less and her dam goes insane! Her dam actually isn't the nicest mare, very ginger and is a very firey character!!
We have to do this for 2 weeks, then re-assess and hope we can increase time out after that. Mare should go back to stud in 4 weeks, but that all hangs in the balance of how foaly will be by then.


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## Allover (25 February 2011)

Thanks for the update, are you and the owner feeling a little more hopefull about it all now?


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## RuthnMeg (25 February 2011)

Allover said:



			Thanks for the update, are you and the owner feeling a little more hopefull about it all now? 

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Mr owner is still disapointed but Mrs owner has better hopes. I am with Mrs owner. Time is a great healer in many ways and it will be at least 2 years until she is anywhere near the track.


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## Maesfen (25 February 2011)

Typical man, always in a hurry, lol!  Glad things look a bit more positive now.


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## Allover (25 February 2011)

I suppose with the TB breeding industry there are so many born each year, there is generally more money invested in the stud fee etc and there is far more competition, that anything less than perfect can be seen as a disappointment, TBs also do not have the luxury of time when they are put into training so young. 

Give baby a big cutey kiss from me please, she really is adorable


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## cptrayes (25 February 2011)

Maesfen said:



			But what if you're wrong and you just happened to have been lucky that yours have gone right when they could have gone the other way?  
Do you really think people should risk turning out like you did just on your say so
		
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On my sayso, Mrs Angry? I said that if she was mine I would turn her out. I gave no advice to anyone else to do so, but you seem angry with me, why? Is it that I have questionned the scientific basis for keeping them in - don't shoot the messenger, it's not my fault if there isn't any, is it? What do I really think? I really think people should be doing what they feel is right and like it or not there are actually two alternative approaches, neither of which seems to be supported by any scientific evidence and both of which can produce evidence of cures.

In your haste to attack me, you didn't read what I wrote. I don't breed so I have never had a bent foal and I risked nothing. Tempted as I have often been to breed my own, when I do the sums I can buy a straight four year old for less than it costs to breed it, without any of these risks of bent or dead foals, or injuries in the first four years.


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## LynneB (25 February 2011)

but if that is the case and you don't breed foals and never have, why would you even say you would go against the advice of those who have been breeding foals for years?  If you have no experience of this you have no basis at all for saying you would turn out if she was yours.  When a new breeder or someone inexperienced in breeding (and I very much count myself in that group) asks for help, it is only really helpful to have advice from people who have experience of it - not someone who assumes they would do something completely different IF they ever bred a foal....don't you think


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## rachi0 (25 February 2011)

What works for one person might not work for another.. everyone has their own way of doing things that works for them!!! 

I have had the luxury of working at studs in UK and Australia. 

At the stud I worked at in Aus.. if we had a foal like that .. it would be out 24/7 in a yard (about 10 metres by 10 metres) so turnout is restricted.. but it would be outside in something bigger than a stable! 

When I first saw foals like the one in the video outside all the time.. i was shocked!! i wanted to lock them up in boxes and turn them out for a limited time per day.. BUT.. their way works too - foals came good in no time!!

In my opinion.. the key is to restrict their exercise but give them enough to prevent them getting heavy but help them stengthen. Obviously Australia has the luxury of 24/7 turnout even through winter without being 3ft deep in mud!!!

Good luck with the foal.. it will come right.. I personally wouldn't be worried about it being windswept.time and strength will resolve that, but I'd keep an eye on how upright it is! Please keep us updated.. maybe post some more photos as the weeks go by to show us how it's improving!


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## cptrayes (25 February 2011)

LynneB said:



			but if that is the case and you don't breed foals and never have, why would you even say you would go against the advice of those who have been breeding foals for years?  If you have no experience of this you have no basis at all for saying you would turn out if she was yours.  When a new breeder or someone inexperienced in breeding (and I very much count myself in that group) asks for help, it is only really helpful to have advice from people who have experience of it - not someone who assumes they would do something completely different IF they ever bred a foal....don't you think
		
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I don't breed myself as I think, moneywise, it's a mug's game. It doesn't mean to say that I don't have experience of breeding, that is your very arrogant assumption, and one that is incorrect.

Which do you think is more likely to damage the foal in the video? Turnout for one hour a day when either she or her mother may go nuts at the unaccustomed freedom? Or turnout in a small area 24 hours a day where she can move for 10 mins and then rest, move then rest, move then rest for the whole day, with no incentive to go bananas once a day? Swings and roundabouts, I would say, between the likelihood of an explosion versus too much activity in the 24 hour period.

There are two sides to this discussion and I am intrigued at the attempt to shut down any discussion of the other side, in spite of a poster able to show a severely deformed foal and later pictures of it in full health.

The poster is not the breeder, she was posting in the hope of being given information that would prevent the owner from giving up on the foal. She is not in a position to take anyone's advice on this thread, she is the stud groom and will do what she is told by the owner, yard manager and the vet. So please get off your high horse preaching at me.


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## rachi0 (25 February 2011)

cptrayes said:



			Which do you think is more likely to damage the foal in the video? Turnout for one hour a day when either she or her mother may go nuts at the unaccustomed freedom? Or turnout in a small area 24 hours a day where she can move for 10 mins and then rest, move then rest, move then rest for the whole day, with no incentive to go bananas once a day? 



			I agree with this.. BUT. unfortunately.. in this country at this time of year this isn't practical!!!

(not meaning to butt in here!) 

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## Alec Swan (25 February 2011)

O_P,  there's only one thing which your foal needs.  *TIME*.  Certainly I'd give the foal and mare,  restricted turnout,  but beyond that,  I really wouldn't worry too much.  All so often,  we worry ourselves over something which with growth,  will sort itself out.  I fail to see what's so wrong with your foal,  to be truthful. 

There are many Group 1 winners,  which have started life,  as your foal has,  and have got where they are without undue interference.  Be patient.

Alec.


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## omen62 (26 February 2011)

Alec Swan said:



			O_P,  there's only one thing which your foal needs.  *TIME*.  Certainly I'd give the foal and mare,  restricted turnout,  but beyond that,  I really wouldn't worry too much.  All so often,  we worry ourselves over something which with growth,  will sort itself out.  I fail to see what's so wrong with your foal,  to be truthful. 

There are many Group 1 winners,  which have started life,  as your foal has,  and have got where they are without undue interference.  Be patient.

Alec.
		
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As she is not the owner her patience is irrelevant.  There is a difference between turn-out on steep hills & restricted which does not necessary mean 1hr turn-out.  Not everyone though has access to a small area other then the stable.  Every now & again one of these would be born to one of the cob mares as the mares were on chains, restriction was automatic & the foals all came good with no vets intervention.   Each situation is different & shouting people down does not help but reading all this would have most confused as to the right course.  That is why I stick with check with your vet & go from there.  This instance is slightly different anyway as the poster is not the owner & as it has rightly been stated can only follow orders.


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## SirenaXVI (26 February 2011)

Alec Swan said:



			O_P,  there's only one thing which your foal needs.  *TIME*.  Certainly I'd give the foal and mare,  restricted turnout,  but beyond that,  I really wouldn't worry too much.  All so often,  we worry ourselves over something which with growth,  will sort itself out.  I fail to see what's so wrong with your foal,  to be truthful. 

There are many Group 1 winners,  which have started life,  as your foal has,  and have got where they are without undue interference.  Be patient.

Alec.
		
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Totally agree, I have seen lots of foals with very bent legs that have come right with time and restricted turnout, try not to worry too much OP, I have seen a lot worse than your friend's foal come right.  The vet is the best one to advise you.


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## SirenaXVI (26 February 2011)

cptrayes said:



			But it's not science is it Amymay? If no-one has taken a set of bent foals (due to soft tissue stretching and/or contraction, not joint/bone malformation which quite obviously will not correct itself), matched them for bentness, turned half of them out and restricted the exercise of half of them and checked them at maturity, then there is nothing whatsoever to show that it is the restricted exercise that is resolving the problem or not.

The old wives tale is the turnout. The modern way is to err on the side of caution and keep in. There is no scientific evidence, as far as I can find out, to show whether one of these approaches is better than the other at straightening a bent foal or not.
		
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Really?  Are your telling us that vets would routinely recommend treatments that have no basis in science but are purely anecdotal?

Interesting that you have never bred a foal, have never even seen one with bent legs yet you still feel that you are in a position to advise


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## cptrayes (26 February 2011)

SirenaXVI said:



			Really?  Are your telling us that vets would routinely recommend treatments that have no basis in science but are purely anecdotal?

Interesting that you have never bred a foal, have never even seen one with bent legs yet you still feel that you are in a position to advise 

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Where do you get your information that I have never seen a foal with bent legs? It is incorrect. And I repeat, I have advised no-one. Other people have advised keeping the foal in a stable. I have only said that if she was mine I would not do so. Why do you feel it necessary to attack me????


The answer to your other question is yes, it is happening all the time. 

Examples:
There was a discussion on the treatment of laminitis with heart bar shoes on another thread recently and some barefooters, me among them, challenged the vet who was discussing this with us to come  up with the scientific evidence for the effectiveness of heart bar shoes versus no shoes at all. She could not. There is none. Yet this is routinely recommended by vets for foundered horses. The only research that has been done is between different types of shoes and dorsal wall resection. Dorsal wall resection, a drastic move, is being done  on the basis of studies with TEN horses, five treated one way and five another. Those numbers are a long way from scientifically significant.

During that discussion, the vet concerned indicated that the evidence for the use of adequan in cases of navicular syndrome is very weak. And yet you will find adequan prescribed on a regular basis for just that purpose.

Dectomax is being prescribed for the treatment of leg mites in horses. Scientfically untested, it's an injectable cow wormer and not licenced for use in horses.

I know a homeopathic vet. Far from there being no scientific evidence of the efficacy of homeopathy, there is a ton of it. And ALL of it shows that homeopathy does not work. Yet homeopathic vets are routinely prescibing homopathic remedies when the weight of science is fully against them.

A year or two back I went to a presentation on skin diseases in the horse presented by someone who was introduced as a national expert. She recommended the use of an Avon beauty product for the prevention of sweet itch. Now I'm guessing, but I'd be reasonably sure that no scientific research has been done on the efficacy of that product for that purpose!

I could go on but you are probably bored already.


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## JanetGeorge (26 February 2011)

cptrayes said:



			There is no scientific evidence, as far as I can find out, to show whether one of these approaches is better than the other at straightening a bent foal or not.
		
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Nope - but there's a LOT of experience from a lot of breeders that suggests that restricted exercise is the best management for some forms of neo-natal limb deformities (for others, more exercise is best.)

20 years ago there was NO scientific evidence to prove that lambs who were left wet and cold after birth, died - although thousands of sheep farmers KNEW it was true.  Not good enough for the scientists.  MAFF sponsored research in which new-born lambs had their temperatures dropped abnormally.  Guess what??  They died!!


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## cptrayes (26 February 2011)

JanetGeorge said:



			Nope - but there's a LOT of experience from a lot of breeders that suggests that restricted exercise is the best management for some forms of neo-natal limb deformities (for others, more exercise is best.)
:
		
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JanetGeorge you are not correct in that statement, I'm sorry (genuinely, I really wish this was cut and dried for people as that would make things a lot easier for anyone with a decision to make, but it isn't). What there is, is a lot of experience from a lot of breeders that foals with bent legs due to soft tissue contraction/elongation will come right with restricted exercise. There is none that I can find that says that those foals would not also have come right with turnout in a small paddock 24/7, or even on a steep hillside. There is evidence from two other posters on this forum that they would. 

Why is it so difficult for people to accept that there is more than one approach to this problem? The original foal, from the video, has so little obviously wrong with it that it would be very surprising if it doesn't come right no matter what anyone does with it, bar shooting it as the owner wants to do!


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## RuthnMeg (26 February 2011)

Have new, and hopefully better, video of foal taken today which I will download shortly for you to see.
I appriciate everyones opinions, in fact, I didn't realise there was such a contradiction in whether or not the foal should have turnout or not! Personally, I would opt for turn out, like in the wild. After all, those foals born wild don't have stables or restrictions!! 
But, this foal isn't mine, and due to the cost of the mating between sire and dam, is already, well should be, worth £4k. Better not do what I would then eh?!


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## Maesfen (26 February 2011)

RuthnMeg said:



			I appriciate everyones opinions, in fact, I didn't realise there was such a contradiction in whether or not the foal should have turnout or not! Personally, I would opt for turn out, like in the wild. After all, those foals born wild don't have stables or restrictions!!
		
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Can understand your viewpoint and totally respect it but just remember the difference between those born in the wild and thoroughbred foals.  The difference, not only in the situation/conditions  they are reared in but also their constitutions too.  Also their value will come into it and people would be less willing to risk it going pear shape than if it was a pony off the moor so better to stick with the usual methods for now - until there is scientific results to prove differently of course.


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## Allover (26 February 2011)

Maesfen said:



			Can understand your viewpoint and totally respect it but just remember the difference between those born in the wild and thoroughbred foals.  The difference, not only in the situation/conditions  they are reared in but also their constitutions too.  Also their value will come into it and people would be less willing to risk it going pear shape than if it was a pony off the moor so better to stick with the usual methods for now - until there is scientific results to prove differently of course. 

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Hear hear 

p.s. Looking forward to the vid


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## tristar (27 February 2011)

in one post someone said about the mother going galloping round madly as a reason not to turn out the foal, but i always turn out the first few times and i hold the mare in a bridle and bit while the foal takes what exercise it needs or feels like for short periods, unless i was advised otherwise by a specialist vet, the movement is what straightens the legs of foal and generally unfurls it, i"d be worried if it was'nt getting any exercise a all, i like to idea about putting the foal on matting, but would prefer paper to shavings,


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## sybil (27 February 2011)

At the end of the day, experience from breeders is not, and never will be, scientific evidence. You have to account for the fact that there are breeders out there that just dont report things like this because they either see it so bad and just put it down or they just deal with it. There are also those breeders who do one thing and then proclaim its the way forward and so all their friends then try something similar, etc etc etc. There are several ways things like this can be treated and encouraged to come good and not all of them have been tried by every body who has ever had a windswept foal or one with contracted tendons. 

To actually produce scientific evidence for which way works best you need huge groups of foals, all of which have the same degree of "windsweptness" or tendon contraction, control what they eat, the climate they live in, the food the mare eats, what breed they are etc etc etc... when you factor in the fact that genetic factors may have an impact on how things respond to treatment aswell, the variables that could affect the outcome are so huge in numbers that it makes it nigh on impossible to find research groups large enough (even if you do it over 10 years). The likelihood that research like this is logistically possible is very slim.

We all have to remember that what is one person's hell is another's heaven- if you dont have a yard you can turn out in, then there isnt much you can do but just turn it out for an hour or so a day. Likewise, if you have a mare that literally WILL NOT abide being boxed for long periods of time then perhaps its the lesser of two evils to turn them out in the smallest paddock you have (even if it is bigger than you would like). At the end of the day there are usually things you can do to fix things like this- there isnt much you can do about a foal with its head mashed in because the mare is steamrollering around her box.

I have seen much much worse come good and I am relatively certain that by reducing bedding a little and being patient that the foal will eventually straighten up. We all know that not everyone on here will agree with turn out, just as not every one on here agrees with keeping them boxed up, but if the mare isnt the easiest then perhaps turning them out in the smallest paddock you have is less of an evil than letting her box walk all over the foal? especially when you dont have a choice in the amount of bedding you use.


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## omen62 (28 February 2011)

Allover said:



			Hear hear 

Further proof in the difference is the ave time taken to foal down.  TB's take longer & would be at risk in the wild, plus they seem to need more assistance then most.  How would anyone know about research, I am sure plenty goes on that never reaches google!  Also there are very few cases in the wild, so again not really comparable.  You may get them a bit down on their fetlocks, but otherwise they are pretty straight forward.
		
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## omen62 (28 February 2011)

JanetGeorge said:



			20 years ago there was NO scientific evidence to prove that lambs who were left wet and cold after birth, died - although thousands of sheep farmers KNEW it was true.  Not good enough for the scientists.  MAFF sponsored research in which new-born lambs had their temperatures dropped abnormally.  Guess what??  They died!! 

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Well you only had to be at High Street, Lake District at Easter time about 16/17yrs ago, it was littered with dead lambs after the snow that year


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## GinnieRedwings (28 February 2011)

RuthnMeg said:



			I appriciate everyones opinions, in fact, I didn't realise there was such a contradiction in whether or not the foal should have turnout or not! Personally, I would opt for turn out, like in the wild. After all, those foals born wild don't have stables or restrictions!!
		
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I am a great advocate of doing as nature intended as much as possible, but in the "wild", foals born with difformities simply die eaten by predators - that sort of natural selection is less acceptable in a commercial breeding situation... especially when something can be done about it relatively easily!!!


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## magic104 (28 February 2011)

GinnieRedwings said:



			I am a great advocate of doing as nature intended as much as possible, but in the "wild", foals born with difformities simply die eaten by predators - that sort of natural selection is less acceptable in a commercial breeding situation... especially when something can be done about it relatively easily!!!
		
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I dont think there are many Predators here in the UK, so would think they are pretty safe.  I think the thing is that flim taken of Zebra, Wild Ass, Camargue ponies etc show a quicker birth process then that of our domestic horses especially TB's.  Again just a generlisation, & the only natural selection is that where man has no interference what so ever.


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## GinnieRedwings (28 February 2011)

magic104 said:



			I dont think there are many Predators here in the UK, so would think they are pretty safe.
		
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That's what you think... my friend's gelding has been trying to convince us of the presence of a mountain lion in the woods next to his paddock even since he moved in!

Seriously though, if you think a fox can't take down a Dartmoor pony foal that can't follow the herd because he can't walk properly, you are seriously mistaken. And mum would probably not bother trying to defend it for too long knowing that it isn't realistically viable - as a handicapped animal will always put the herd in danger. 

There may not be any mountain lions in the UK, but there are predators large enough to take down wild or feral horses in other parts of the world and horses, even here in the UK, even domesticated for a very long time, are incredibly close to their instinct - That same instinct that tells my friend's gelding (he wasn't gelded until he was 10 years old and ran with a herd where he was the "protector") that he does not feel comfortable living quite so close to the woods, where the mountain lions might be on the prowl!!!


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## glenruby (28 February 2011)

Just to add to the mix -the coloured foal shown turned out on steep hills has not got the same DOD as the foal in the first video. The reasoning behind limite turnout (whether that be by turning out in a small pen 24hrs or 1 hour in a foal paddock daily) is to gently stretch the tendons without putting them under undue pressure for long periods of time. I have no doubt the majority of mild cases would correct regardless of management however xs turnout could cause damage to tendons and ligaments by tearing and stretching. Contracted tendons are not a painful condition and turning out in a large field/hills a foal will no doubt explore and trot/canter about. By keeping in a small pen or mare and foal paddock, there is limitd space for mare to have a gallop and also the foal will never be far from the mare so no need to repeatedly trot or canter after her as she moves her grazing spot.
In severe cases, further medical or surgical intervention is required to correct these disorders.
Foals in the wild born with very severe developmental disorders are as said before removed by natural selection but anything less than v severe will most likely survive. Thats not to say their legs will straighten, nor that they would be rideable. Thats not their purpose, galloping away from predators may not seem unlike the strain induced by racing but their is the mere factor of 8-12stone weight to carry which makes them very different things.

ETA - the coloured foal has (from memory as i havent looked at page one for a few days) lax tendons, little risk of stetching tendons or ligaments except perhaps extensor tendons which of course we know are not as vital to athletic performance as the flerure tendons.


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## magic104 (28 February 2011)

GinnieRedwings said:



			Seriously though, if you think a fox can't take down a Dartmoor pony foal that can't follow the herd because he can't walk properly, you are seriously mistaken. And mum would probably not bother trying to defend it for too long knowing that it isn't realistically viable - as a handicapped animal will always put the herd in danger. (QUOTE]

I know foxes can work in pairs because I have seen them.  As for taking out a foal, I would have to witness that one or see a film of it, sorry not convienced.  Same as I am not convienced that UFO's exist just on the say so of eye witnesses, or even myself seeing a light leave one star & travel & appear to settle on another!

PS
And yes mine has a problem with crocs in water, cant convience him otherwise!
		
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## Allover (28 February 2011)

omen62 said:





Allover said:



			Hear hear 

Further proof in the difference is the ave time taken to foal down.  TB's take longer & would be at risk in the wild, plus they seem to need more assistance then most.  How would anyone know about research, I am sure plenty goes on that never reaches google!  Also there are very few cases in the wild, so again not really comparable.  You may get them a bit down on their fetlocks, but otherwise they are pretty straight forward.
		
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I dont understand your point on this one?
		
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## GinnieRedwings (28 February 2011)

magic104 said:



			PS
And yes mine has a problem with crocs in water, cant convience him otherwise!
		
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Ah, yes, probably his uncle has told him about a friend who had told him about a distant relative in Florida, who once saw a friend get eaten by a crocodile whilst crossing water...  ... or so goes the story Monty Roberts is fond of telling when demonstrating the beginnings of helping horses with their fear of water - very entertaining.


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## magic104 (1 March 2011)

Allover said:





omen62 said:



			I dont understand your point on this one?
		
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The poster ref the wild, for some reason that part of the quote did not follow over.  There is no comparison to the wild as TB's would struggle to survive anyway.  If they were out in Kenya & took as long as some to foal down they would have been eaten, obviously if they were in the New Forest they have a better chance.
		
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