# Stallion suggestions please :) *Pic to help*



## becca1305 (4 May 2012)

Ive always said I would love to put my mare in foal at some point, and have discussed it with instructor and vet, but due to circumstances I'm starting to think it might be best to put her in foal sooner than I initially thought so I would like to get some ideas on stallions . I have some experience with foals and yearlings having handled my instructors, and have had my WB from an unhandled 2 yo. Ive also worked out the costs inc worst case scenarios so I know what Im letting myself in for, I know it would be cheaper to go out and buy a foal but this mare means an awful lot to me and is the best horse Ive ever owned, having plenty of attributes I want passed on, and I'd love to have something out of her for me for the future as a keeper .

We think it is possible that she has already had a foal as a youngster over in Ireland. A SJ instructor asked me if she had had a foal based on the noise she made over a fence  and when I spoke to my vet about it he said it was perfectly possible.

She is 16hh 1/2 an inch ISH 3/4 TB (though she is pretty solid type) coloured. I would ideally LOVE a coloured foal from her (Im going to send off some hairs for testing on the off chance she is homozygous so then I wouldn't just focus on coloured stallions and particularly homozygous ones), but if I can't find the right coloured stallion then I would use a solid colour rather than breed from something based on colour. The foal would be as a keeper for me to hopefully event in the future . 

Mares best points - 

ridden work : XC - absolutely dream, genuine, scopey, honest with a '5th leg' and she absolutely adores it. 

Weaker points : DR - nice mover but not particularly flashy.

SJ - isn't as light on her feet as I would like naturally. Doesn't find tightish turns or short striding sequences easy. Doubtless will improve the more she does but not natural for her. + points = pretty scopey jumped 1.4m at home (not a course of), jumped round 1.15m course as practice for her debut 1.10m ODE at the end of last season pretty well but I'd say course was pretty generous on space.

Conclusion - perhaps BSJA stallion? with flashy movement or do I need to add more blood and focus on eventing TBs? Also must be MINIMUM of 16.2hh. Mare is only *just* big enough for me (6ft, most of it leg) at just over 16hh so ideally offspring would finish up a bit bigger than her. Also I would be looking at lighter stallions as mare is already rather solid.

Conformation : Im not sure theres any points which particularly stand out, she has pretty good feet - entirely BF atm. But I do find it hard to be objective when I look at her every day! Vet and instructor both said they would be happy to breed from her, but if theres any area that you think a particular stallion would really improve on please tell me .


The stallion I really like the look of is Airborn at the shovern stud. Would he be a suitable contender, or am I going off on completely the wrong track and would be better looking at pure TB stallions and sacrificing colour? 

Rubbish pic of podgy, grubby mare during her holidays enjoying the solarium lighting but its the only side shot minus rug/tack that I have! So normally more top line, less tummy , though I suppose this is more the condition they like them in for getting in foal rather than fully fit?






Shot to show solid type - big chest - (and nature ). (ETA I stopped holding her literally for the camera button to be pressed). She does seem to adore children and is ever so gentle and careful with him.






Jumping






Sorry for the sizings!

I recognise that whilst I do have experience with young stock I have no experience with selecting stallions. So recommendations from people experienced in breeding would be really welcome  I'll also mention again that I would be looking to breed solely to produce something for me to keep . Thankyou.


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## HashRouge (4 May 2012)

I don't know about stallions, but she is lovely!


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## JenHunt (4 May 2012)

I can't help with choosing stallions, but in terms of her conformation - I'd say she's a nice sort, nicely put together, but like most horses she has bits you might want to improve on for the next generation...

IMO (and while I'm an experienced horse person, I'm no professional)... 
her shoulder is quite upright, which is probably what stops her movement from being flashy.
she's relatively short backed, and I wouldn't want to make her any more compact which could reduce her flexibility on tighter turns.
I would want her to have shorter canon bones/ be more let down at the hock especially, to help reduce injury risk for jumping.

so nothing I'd worry about hugely, but things to consider. 

I would be inclined to look at a dressage/SJ stallion to give the scope and flashier paces and perhaps a little lightness of foot. 

good luck on your search!


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## becca1305 (4 May 2012)

Thankyou both 

JenHunt - its interesting you should say that about her back, I was thinking I'd need to make sure I bred to nothing with a shorter back than her as shes quite short, so good to know that Im not completely off in my thoughts! . She just fits a 17.5" saddle, I have her jump saddle with Fward cut panels but could do with an 18" for me really. Your other points arent things Ive really   noticed so thankyou .


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## rowy (4 May 2012)

There is a dun quarter horse stallion called "docs leaguer" and he is absolutely stunning with the best temperment and was champion at PSG level in switzerland for 2 years running. Very very trainable temperment as has competed to high level western before going to dressage and back to western again and still going strong at 19. 
He is only 15.2hh though. 
PM me if you want more details


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## becca1305 (4 May 2012)

thanks rowy, way too small though unfortunately! I'd need another hand on him . The downside of being tall!


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## eventrider23 (4 May 2012)

She is a lovely sort isn't she!

I like Airborn but I think if you are looking for something to event then you need to go for more blood as he is quite chunky.  Personally i would aim to inject quite a bit of either TB or Trakehner blood into her to add the refinement and movement especially if looking to breed an eventer.

It depends on your budget really overall....

A coloured stallion to consider is Commander.  Owned by the same person as Utah van Erpekom but he is half TB and blood himself whilst being a good mover and jumper.

A lovely BIG (in height not bone) coloured stallion is My Squire Caretino who stands at Brendon Stud in Sussex.  Excellent jumper - incredibly neat - with flashy paces he would possibly be a good non TB choice - especially if looking to add height.


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## crazycoloured (4 May 2012)

what a nice mare,if she were mine id use a good thoroughbred on her..if you look on stallionsonline they have a list on there...


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## jcoombs (4 May 2012)

I'm using the stallion zanzibar this year, his offspring have been very successful with a fab temperment, he's only 6 and is jumping 1m30's consitantly, and he's qualified for hoys this year.


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## mellissa (4 May 2012)

Utah van Erpekom is scopey and I think moves quite well.  Not sure if he passes colour on but he is coloured, and has some offspring jumping well. 

With regard to breeding from your mare, it depends what you are looking to do with the foal. I am into showjumping and so only really know SJ stallions.  There are few coloured stallions, as to be honest colour is pretty low on our list.  But go with one that is throwing good stock and jumped to a good level itself.  Your riding ability also would influence your decision- no good breeding a super star that you cannot ride one side of, like wise one that doesn't fulfill your expectations.

Breeding is a gamble, and you are aware of the risks and financial implications of it.  It is for you to keep, I don't know if you are a millionaire or not, but sometimes life throws curve balls.  If you still want to breed from your mare- try to make it more appealing to the Market should you have to sell one day.

You don't say if she has an affiliated comp record and looking at her she looks very sweet and lovely.  Use a stallion with a good record, temperament, movement and stock that is rideable and willing. There are many more leisure riders and amateurs than professionals, and a good allrounder will find a nice home if necessary. 

Check Utah out, I do not know much about him other than a friend has a lovely young stallion by him, and rates this young stallion highly.


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## becca1305 (4 May 2012)

thank you everyone, I'm just off to haul the horses in for their tea since they are looking miserable at me through the window, I will check out all the recommendations when Im back


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## maestro (4 May 2012)

As you are in Leics and so am I why not come and see what my boy Weston Justice is producing. He is back upto Stallions AI in Shropshire tomorrow but we have a number of youngstock by him here to show what he produces.  As an advanced Event stallion he has proved himself and his stock are too now.  He usually throws taller than himself and there has already been coloured youngsters by him.  Indeed whenever put to a coloured mare the offspring has been coloured, although that would be a gamble


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## becca1305 (4 May 2012)

well thank you all 

eventrider23 -thanks, commander looks lovely. do you happen to know where he is standing at stud etc so I can get more info? I can only find him on the logres farm website which says he is for sale. I will have a look at my squire caretino .

jcoombs - thanks. he is lovely . not sure whether he will be fine enough though, decisions decisions!

mellissa - I am very interested in utah van erpekom, thanks . I understand the points you make . Of course we can never know for certain about the future, I meant more I am not breeding to try and sell something to make a profit and covering my costs is not a concern. In fact more likely than a monetary based issue would be (being morbid), if something happened to me I'd want them to go to ridden homes rather than have an early and prolonged retirement at home. However equally breeding for me like this as a likely one off aiming to produce a forever horse is such a commitment I wouldn't go through it with the aim to produce a market pleaser rather than what I want. That said, whilst I have ridden difficult horses I want a horse I can enjoy and I far more enjoy something that is willing, honest and works with me rather than against me - which is usually a market pleaser anyway .

Mare has an excellent unaffill record she didn't come home without a top 3 rosette unaffil ODE-ing last year and finished the season at 1.10m level. She also did her first BE which she came 5th at. I think realistically she will become a good horse at novice in the future when I have the time to affiliate her properly. I am not looking to try and breed a 4* horse or anything silly  but equally more of an eventer than an all rounder- be nice to try and produce something with potential for novice/intermediate, so a middling level eventer I suppose . Though if foaly turns out anything like his mum he will be a very easily rideable all rounder as well as a decent eventer . I agree, and temperament in a stallion is important to me, however with a lovely mare who has been very willing and trainable (Ive had her since a just backed youngster and she was my first project to train) at least Im in the beneficial position of having a nice temperament and good attitude to work on the dam side . I am going to do some more research into Utah as he is gorgeous  my main dilemma atm is whether to choose a pure TB or not! 

maestro - thats interesting, I suggested weston justice to a friend after hearing such favourable reviews of him, she ended up going with mill law as she visited him and loved him and didn't look at any others. I can't believe I didn't think of him, I guess Ive just been focussed on coloureds as my heart would love her to have a coloured, but my head knows to pick the right stallion regardless of colour  will have a look now. ETA He's just a little too small for me I'm afraid, I've set my absolute minimum at 16.2hh as being a lanky so and so mare is a little small for me and I would like to try and produce something taller. thank you though, he is a stunning lad.

Also thankyou to everyone for the PMs


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## marie+bella (4 May 2012)

hi my sister bread her mare to handle and the filly is fantastic, extremely calm yet with fantastic huge flashy movements. also completely stunning and looks like she'l be making 16.2+. she really is a fab horse you couldn't ask for anything better . also know quite a few other people who have used him and he seems to of always produced brilliant foals.

what part of the country are you looking in though as that makes a big difference x


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## becca1305 (4 May 2012)

thankyou, will have a look . If AI pretty much any part of the country, I will visit any stallion before I use though so ideally not cornwall or cumbria. Im based in leics. If natural cover then it depends on the arrangements available and again ideally closer to home.


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## Lgd (5 May 2012)

I took a bit of a punt on this chap last year as he was a first season sire.

http://www.holdenfolddressage.co.uk/spyder.html

some pics of him jumping on their facebook page

https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.221441024567355.62816.221413857903405&type=3

He's got a lovely temperament and I wanted a little bit bigger, bit more refinement and something that could jump and move on the flat as the foal is intended for eventing.

Just waiting for foalie to land at the moment (due 18th May) but I know they are very pleased with the ones that are on the ground so far.

This is the mare - as you can see quite chunky (she is Orlov x TB/Connemara) and stands just on 15.3hh. Good little dressage horse and has competed to PSG, she also has one heck of a pop in her although is not supposed to jump after a field injury a few years back. (she has been known to jump the field fence for fun!)

https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.444010257977.229644.673237977&type=3&l=9655c92ce2

You  need to scroll down to near the bottom of the album to find her as this one is mixed with some of the others.

https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.35569552977.43359.673237977&type=3&l=d67711ecf8


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## eventrider23 (5 May 2012)

Commander was set to be standing at Pencarder Sport Horses with Roy Haggerty who has Ramexico so I would contact them for more info.


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## mellissa (5 May 2012)

Sorry I didn't see the eventing bit.  So can't help in that department!

Good luck


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## maestro (5 May 2012)

To try to get the height then I would go for Chilli Morning if he is in use this year, as he is blood enough for eventing.  I still would be not worrying about the colour, that would be a bonus as most coloured stallions would still rely on the mares being blood enough to come out and do the job.


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## Oscar (5 May 2012)

My friend has used and really likes Stanhopes Diddicoy, he has a lot of Trak and TB blood in his pedigree so should refine your mare.


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## Wagtail (5 May 2012)

From the first photograph I would say that she is just right in length through her back. I agree her shoulder is a little bit upright. She is also a little bit straight through her hocks and so I would be looking for a stallion with a nice sloping shoulder and good length to the hocks. Apart froom that, she is beautiful. Lovely neck and good forelegs. I would be looking for a good athletic stallion, probably a TB.


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## Wainwrights_Fells (5 May 2012)

Hi Becca, your mare looks a really nice type. I recommend you look at the following stallions:- Rubicell  http://www.facebook.com/l.php?u=http://youtu.be/PdCYrFSUmMI&h=CAQFcXzBW

:- Grafenstolz http://www.facebook.com/l.php?u=http://youtu.be/ZqGrSP9CzCQ&h=FAQG3q9nA

Royaldik http://www.facebook.com/l.php?u=http://youtu.be/5zmed2Rkmpk&h=xAQGuzteQ

The rider in the last video is the fabulous Ingrid Klimke!

I can see you are in Leics - if i were you i would contact Preci-Spark Event horses and ask if you can go and see some of their youngstock by the stallions i mentioned. Here is their address :- http://www.precihorses.com/


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## becca1305 (5 May 2012)

Lgd. thankyou . he is a smart lad, I think though I am going to focus on proven sires and that possibly he is a little solid for my mare. If Im going to take a risk on solidity it would be with airborn  as I adore him. Thankyou for suggesting him though, fingers crossed for foalie.

eventrider23 - thankyou for the info on commander . I like him but Im not entirely sure what he would add to improve on my mare, though Im certainly no expert which is the problem! . However I do like the look of Ustinov Van Elsenham who they are standing ( out of uta van erpekom)  he's out eventing . So I may contact them for some more info/pics on him.

Looking at pedigree, Uta seems to have more blood than Ustinov but Ustinov is the eventer and looks finer to me. Would ustinov be potentially suitable or not because of the lack of blood?
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=10758914
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=10416117
http://www.pencardersporthorses.co.uk/?p=109
http://www.pencardersporthorses.co.uk/?p=113


maestro - thankyou  Ive looked but am struggling to find chilli morning AI anywhere atm, presume due to the change of rider etc but will keep searching . Do you think he would be enough blood with my mare? she is 3/4 TB doesn't really look it! 

HoresyLad - thanks , I have to admit though I have heard some not so favourable reviews about him but will research some more.

Wagtail -thankyou, thats really helpful . Its so difficult to select as my eye keeps getting drawn to some of the finer more athletic WBs but worried that as my mare doesn't particularly show her 3/4 TB breeding that offspring may end up too solid with not enough gallop, so then perhaps I'd be better off then going for a pure TB. 

Wanwrights - Thankyou . Grafenstolz and Royaldik are actually one of the ones I have written down now  so good to know Im not completely off . I looked at rubicell but he is an oldenburg and the stallion company do advise to use him on TB mares to get an eventer, and I dont think my girl is fine enough! However I am interested in one of his progeny . Thankyou for that link to preci horses, really useful 


Ive written down anything that I thought might suit : So far on my (very long) shortlist I have -

WBs :
Airborn (Phanten) - http://www.shovernstud.co.uk/airborn.html
Rubicolor (Rubicell) - http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=10550187 (also unsure if still breeding from him)
Ustinov Van Elsenham (Utah van Erakom) - http://www.pencardersporthorses.co.uk/?p=109

Would any of these be possibilities? or should I just reject them and focus on horses with plenty of TB/ Trakehner in bloodlines?


Part TBs:
Glenhill Gold - http://www.theipsa.com/GlenhillGold.htm
All that Jazz AA - http://www.biddesdenstud.co.uk/26321.html
Welton Ambassador 7/8 TB - http://www.weltonhorses.co.uk/index.php/welton-ambassador.html
Grafenstolz TRK - http://www.******************.com/stallion_detail.php?stallion=2007025
Primmores Pioneer - http://www.teambleekman.co.uk/whorridge_stud_primmores_pioneer.html (essentially pure TB)
Sir Suave - http://www.stallionai.co.uk/stallions/sir-sauve/ up and coming eventing. (15/16th TB, so pretty much pure).
Hej Kuba? AA x partbred arab x TRK - http://europeaneventing.co.uk/index.php/stallions/hej-kuba
Opposition supremacy part TRK - http://www.landfordcommonstud.com/opposition-supremacy.html
Opposition Heracles part TRK - http://www.landfordcommonstud.com/opposition-heracles.html
Coded Country Gent 7/8 TB - http://www.countryfarmstud.co.uk/viewstallions.php?horse=Coded Country Gent (homozygous) - I like the look of this chap, but no recent pics of him jumping and not sure if he would improve on my mare? 
Royaldik 1/2 TB - http://www.******************.com/stallion_detail.php?stallion=2007031


TBs:
One More Tiger ? - http://www.greatbrockhamhurststud.co.uk/onemoretiger.htm I can't find any pics of him jumping etc but have heard great reviews about him as a sire for eveners.
Hand in Glove - http://www.precihorses.com/horses/hand-in-glove.html (thankyou for the link Wainwrights  )
Primitive Proposal - http://www.louellastud.co.uk/stallions/primitive-proposal
Mayhill (frozen) - http://www.teambleekman.co.uk/whorridge_stud_mayhill.html
Powerblade - http://www.harthillstud.com/power-blade.html - SJed to 1.3m
Stormhill Miller - http://www.harthillstud.com/stormhill-millerhorse.html 


Wow long list ! Any recommendations for any of those, or advice not to use based on stallion/ progeny/ suitability for my mare appreciated  and any more stallion recommendations also . thank you everyone.


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## foxy1 (5 May 2012)

I love Power Blade!! 

One More Tiger failed two gradings......


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## eventrider23 (5 May 2012)

Based on your list here is what I would say of them - 

Airborn (Phanten) - Nice horse but just don't think you will get enough blood from this mix
Rubicolor (Rubicell) - LOVE this boy and his foals have been superb but he is for sale and don't think standing at public stud now.
Ustinov Van Elsenham (Utah van Erakom) - Lovely boy - unproven as yet but of these 3 he would be my choice

Part TBs:
Glenhill Gold - Super horse and very underused.  Successful at 3 star eventing and was accepted at Badminton 4 star but injury forced retirement but definitely one of the top end competition stallions and great temp to boot.
All that Jazz AA - Don't know if really standing at stud although frozen available.  Question would be on his soundness as know he had long breaks from competition due to injuries, etc.
Welton Ambassador 7/8 TB - Is he still at stud?
Primmores Pioneer - Super eventing pedigree however he didn't do the job himself and not had anything stock wise that really impresses yet. ?? on temperament too as believe sharp.
Sir Suave - Super young horse and out there doing the job in competition now
Hej Kuba? AA x partbred arab x TRK - Not done much competition wise but produced by an amateur so clearly nice tempered.  Foals doing well in Futurities, 
Opposition supremacy part TRK - Super pedigree and being produced by the best event rider in the world so if he doesn't succeed there will be a reason but not proven as yet. 
Opposition Heracles part TRK - Did well in young horse classes and progeny just starting to come out
Coded Country Gent 7/8 TB - Don't think this boy is competing yet and so nothing proven in progeny or comp.


TBs:
One More Tiger ? - Might have failed gradings but so have other successful stallions.  Progeny seem absolutely lovely and doing well now under saddle eventing and showing.  Super pedigree!
Hand in Glove - Don't think any semen available anymore
Primitive Proposal - Progeny getting out and doing the job!
Mayhill (frozen) - can't remember how good his frozen is.  
Powerblade - SUPER horse and great assett to UK breeding now he has come back to the UK!! 
Stormhill Miller - Another superb sire and sire of 4 star eventer.


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## only_me (5 May 2012)

Glen hill gold is really, really nice! 
I am sightly biased as I have a horse by him (bought from the people that own GHG) and is just the nicest horse to work with!
Don't forget GHG is a 3* winner and plenty of good results in his career, but completely rideable and I really can't stress how good his attitude is  His progency is starting to compete now and of all the ones I have seen are really nice


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## lindajones (5 May 2012)

Have a look at the young stallion  " Jivetime Lochinvar " owned by Debby McDowell . I dont think that you would be disappointed .


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## becca1305 (5 May 2012)

thank you everyone, particularly eventrider23  that is super helpful, a few stallions to cross of my list there. You are correct with weston ambassador, he passed away. I assumed that they still had frozen since stud card was still on website but just seen its for 09 . Glenhill gold and sir suave were my favourites out of the part TB list  will be very interesting to see what sir suave does this season. Powerblade was also one of my favourites out of the TB list as hes clearly got the jump and lightness on his feet to have jumped 1.30ms. 

Lindajones - thankyou will have a look . ETA he is absolutely gorgeous but just too small for me unfortunately at 15.2hh.


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## becca1305 (5 May 2012)

also does anyone happen to know anything about glen hill golds temperament/ease of ride? or offspring? theres a couple of pics on his fb page of him rearing right up, one where he has struck (possibly not entirely purposely) the man leading him. I know every horse can have its moments but just wanted to get a feel for him as temperament and trainability are very much key points for me .


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## vroutledge (5 May 2012)

I only glanced at your thread but i think this stallion is stunning and his foals too.........http://www.longacresstud.co.uk/gpage4.html


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## vroutledge (5 May 2012)

This one too, my friend has too stunning youngsters out of him, both incredibly floaty pace and big look at me foals. http://www.countryfarmstud.co.uk/viewstallions.php?horse=Country Top Gun


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## eventrider23 (5 May 2012)

From what I know Glenhill Gold's temperament is fab - Declan rode him all his life and adores him.  Think his FB pics are simply tongue in cheek 'look at how funny he thinks he is' type of moments.  If I were able to I would use him in a shot!!! Stud fee also incredibly reasonable when you think what he has done...not many horses that have competed and won at 2/3 star level and qualified 4 star are under the £500 bracket!


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## NicoleS_007 (5 May 2012)

I have a mare by Glenhill Gold and she's the sweetest most easiest horse to work with  She can be spooky but she doesn't have a bad bone in her, shes got a good trainable brain to. From what I've heard most of his offspring tend to be sweet and easy to work with.


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## becca1305 (5 May 2012)

vroutledge - thanks  I looked at long acres samara fly and then completely forgot to add him to my list . he does have a bit of TB in his mix, again the only q being whether it would be enough! I looked at country farm stud's top gun and whilst he is lovely I just dont think he could improve on my mare as much as some other stallions.

eventrider23 - thanks  good to know. I really like him and think he's beautiful but had to check after seeing that display . 

Nicole - thankyou . Do you mind me asking what breeding she has from her dam side? .


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## imafluffybunny (6 May 2012)

What about Brendon studs Caretino Glory? He moves like a dressage horse, jumping grade A and he is light in frame so will refine your mare.


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## Wagtail (6 May 2012)

becca1305 said:



			TBs:
One More Tiger ? - http://www.greatbrockhamhurststud.co.uk/onemoretiger.htm I can't find any pics of him jumping etc but have heard great reviews about him as a sire for eveners.
Hand in Glove - http://www.precihorses.com/horses/hand-in-glove.html (thankyou for the link Wainwrights  )
Primitive Proposal - http://www.louellastud.co.uk/stallions/primitive-proposal
Mayhill (frozen) - http://www.teambleekman.co.uk/whorridge_stud_mayhill.html
Powerblade - http://www.harthillstud.com/power-blade.html - SJed to 1.3m
Stormhill Miller - http://www.harthillstud.com/stormhill-millerhorse.html

Click to expand...


Out of those, I would avoid Stormhill Miller as he tends towards similar conformational weaknesses as your mare (more upright shoulder and slightly straighter hock). Powerblade has the best shoulder, but looks quite heavy in front for a TB. One more tiger looks croup high, but the photograph is poor so may be misleading. I like all the others. I also really like Royaldik out of the non TBs. His trot is to die for.


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## GinnieRedwings (6 May 2012)

Becca, sorry if I have missed that, but what do you know for certain about your (very lovely) mare's pedigree?

ETA - she looks incredibly similar to a mare I have, down to the weaknesses (upright shoulder and slightly straight through the hock) who is out of an Irish mare (ID x TB, with more ID possibly, but unrecorded breeding) by Orlando.


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## becca1305 (6 May 2012)

Imafluffybunny - i will have a look 

Wagtail- thanks thats really helpful 

Ginnie- not huge amounts, shes not anything special on her bloodlines. She was bred in ireland. Her sire flash all I know is that he is ISHxTB. Her dam I cant find anything on online pedigree websites, but her damsire woodpas was a TB and from the info Im pretty sure her dam was a full TB.


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## NicoleS_007 (6 May 2012)

becca1305 said:



			Nicole - thankyou . Do you mind me asking what breeding she has from her dam side? .
		
Click to expand...

I think her Dam was just a bog standard ISH (by the name of Copperbeech Diana), can't find any records of it ever competing etc So both sides of her breeding is IDxTB


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## becca1305 (6 May 2012)

Thanks nicole  so a similar sort of weight to my girl or lighter? Im just trying to nab ideas from peoples experience as to if she would go well with him  .


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## GinnieRedwings (6 May 2012)

becca1305 said:



			Ginnie- not huge amounts, shes not anything special on her bloodlines. She was bred in ireland. Her sire flash all I know is that he is ISHxTB. Her dam I cant find anything on online pedigree websites, but her damsire woodpas was a TB and from the info Im pretty sure her dam was a full TB.
		
Click to expand...

I would be surprised if it was the whole picture.

It's just the colour that has me wondering - ****as far as I am aware**** & someone might be able to tell you otherwise, there is no tobiano in ID or TB lines (the couple of coloured racehorses around are not pure TB, the tobiano was imported from an outcross to a coloured warmblood). 

There are 2 notorious lines of warmblood who carry tobiano (Samber & Oberon) and of course there is a lot of tobiano in cobs.

The tobiano gene is dominant - which means that it is always expressed in a horse that carries it (albeit sometimes minimally - Eventrider123 has just had a tobiano filly who has 4 stockings and a blaze and no other white) - it doesn't "hide" and therefore cannot reappear down a line of bay or chestnut horses. One of your mare's parents MUST have been tobiano, so there has to be more than just TB & ID in her bloodline - if she was bred in Ireland, it ***may*** be more likely to be a cob, than a coloured European warmblood.

The colour genetics mean that unless BOTH her parents were tobiano, then she cannot be homozygous for tobiano. So, statistically:

50% of a tobiano foal if covered by a plain coloured horse
75% of a tobiano foal if covered by a heterozygous tobiano horse
100% of a tobiano foal if covered by a homozygous tobiano horse

If I were trying to produce an eventer out of your mare, I would go for a pure TB with a lovely shoulder - Power Blade as mentioned before, or perhaps Watermill Swatch.

Good luck & let us know what you decide. Breeding is one of the most amazing and exciting thing you can do, every step of the way, from picking the stallion, to the birth, to sitting on your homebred for the first time (which we did yesterday with our 4 year old ) and beyond... x


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## carmenlucy123 (6 May 2012)

one more tiger is gorgeous 
as is glenhill gold


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## becca1305 (6 May 2012)

Thankyou for the info on colours  really useful. Her sire is definitely a coloured  but his sire and dam one is listed as ISH and the other TB. Im right in thinking that ISH can be used for a multitude of breed crosses? So quite feasibly cob in there poss WB.

EDIT : just managed to find her dam's lines online, she is pure TB


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## GinnieRedwings (6 May 2012)

Mostly ISH is ID x TB, but you are right, I think,  any cross by a sire approved by the Irish Horse Board and out of a mare with Irish Horse Register full papers can be registered as ISH.

Irish breeders were notorious for being "relaxed" about breeding papers, registrations and keeping records... In fact there are very many Irish horses all over the world with no breeding info or the wrong papers... There is the old story of the breeding asking the buyer "who do you want her to be by, Sir?". They are straightening up and getting their act together now, but it's a bit late for a lot of the older horses. It would be useful for you to dig a bit deeper. Just so you know - especially if you are going to breed from her.

Sporthorse Ireland has a lot of info, freely accessible online nowadays and if you have the sire name, and the breeder's name, you might be able to find a record of her. Let me know if you need me to point you in the right direction x


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## becca1305 (6 May 2012)

Edit to add to above :also, with her sire I didn't explain properly. I only know half of his bloodlines which are ISH X TB, his dam is listed as unknown.

Thanks, I will have a look on sport horse ireland . If anyone knows anything about Flash (her sire) by Rainbows End it would interesting to know but probably a long shot . actually Im being compute illiterate again  I don't suppose you have the link to their pedigree database or search engine thingymajig pls?


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## GinnieRedwings (6 May 2012)

http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=10683211

http://www.horsesportireland.ie/stallions/publications.5793.html

Sorry, had a quick look, but no approved stallion by the name of Flash or Rainbows End - though the record is for 2009 only... 

Got to go, but will have another look later on if you want x

ETA: Sport Horse Data shows 2 progeny of Flash, both tobiano and both doing well eventing... one of them yours?


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## becca1305 (6 May 2012)

yeh thats all I could find the 2009 one. thanks for the help . if you happen to stumble across older records I would be very interested thanks but don't want to take up too much of your time


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## vroutledge (6 May 2012)

NicoleS_007 said:



			I think her Dam was just a bog standard ISH (by the name of Copperbeech Diana), can't find any records of it ever competing etc So both sides of her breeding is IDxTB
		
Click to expand...

Copperbeech Diana is my Colts Grand Dam :-D


http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/copperbeech+diana

Not sure if you have seen this.


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## vroutledge (6 May 2012)

Hi Becca1305 check http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/ there are a few horses called Rainbows end


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## vroutledge (6 May 2012)

found this http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/flash84


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## NicoleS_007 (6 May 2012)

vroutledge said:



			Copperbeech Diana is my Colts Grand Dam :-D


http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/copperbeech+diana

Not sure if you have seen this.
		
Click to expand...

Yea that's my mares dam  Your a good detective, I couldn't find anything on her lol 

Becca - My mares quite similar to yours (upright shoulder, short and compact), shes even ginge and white to  She has 8 inch bone.


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## GinnieRedwings (6 May 2012)

Look what I found!

http://www.theipsa.com/flash.htm

http://www.theipsa.com/RainbowsEnd.htm

No dam line recorded for Flash, but he isn't ISH, which is why he is not showing on sporthorse Ireland records, and neither is Rainbows End. They are both registered with the IPSA (Irish Piebald and Skewbald Association)

Rainbow's end stands in county Offaly in Ireland. Eothain (a member on here) lives in County Offaly and he might be able to help you. He is friendly and approachable and won't mind you sending him a pm, if you're interested in finding out more.


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## only_me (6 May 2012)

I think you missed my post re. Glenhill gold so will just re-post it 



only_me said:



			Glenhill gold is really, really nice! 
I am sightly biased as I have a horse by him (bought from the people that own GHG) and is just the nicest horse to work with!
Don't forget GHG is a 3* winner and plenty of good results in his career, but completely rideable and I really can't stress how good his attitude is  His progency is starting to compete now and of all the ones I have seen are really nice 

Click to expand...

Also to add my horse would almost look like a national hunt tb if he was bay - the opinion of others!




becca1305 said:



			also does anyone happen to know anything about glen hill golds temperament/ease of ride? or offspring? theres a couple of pics on his fb page of him rearing right up, one where he has struck (possibly not entirely purposely) the man leading him. I know every horse can have its moments but just wanted to get a feel for him as temperament and trainability are very much key points for me .
		
Click to expand...

All the ones I have seen by GHG have a fantastic temperament  Certainly my horse has a fabulous one, the nicest horse I have ever dealt with, very easy to train and everything is fun for him - including today on the gallops he showed up his superb turn of foot by galloping up the track leaving the others in his wake - GHG appears to produce really nice horses that find galloping effortless  
The pics on the site are of the trot up, led by declan (owner & rider) where a very very fit horse was showing off! He has a fab attitude and is easy to deal with.



becca1305 said:



			Nicole - thankyou . Do you mind me asking what breeding she has from her dam side? .
		
Click to expand...

Just to let you know, my horse is out of a tb mare 

Imo, GHG is pretty cheap for what he has achieved!


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## becca1305 (7 May 2012)

sorry have been out all day, why does everything with horses take so long?! I left the house at 1.20pm (yard at bottom of my drive) and groomed mare and boxed up to go to lesson. I didn't get back inside until ten past blinking 9pm! I did clear out the box when I got back and feed and rug the 5some, but still! whole blinking day gone! At least it was a good lesson . 

thankyou ginnie  thats really awesome. I would hazard a guess theres cob in her sire .   I can see parts of her in him, its really interesting . He's 17hh though, I wonder if her dam was small as lily is only just over 16hh.

Only_me - thankyou  sorry for missing your post earlier . thats really good to know, he is one of the top contenders on my list now .


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## becca1305 (7 May 2012)

Up date shortlist:-


Top 5 that I like:

Currently my No1: Glenhill gold (only_me he is gorgeous I am in love with him  and thank you to others who suggested him .) Does anyone happen to know how to get hold of him by AI in england? the ballinteggart stud website isn't working . From my calculations and then roughly rounded up (rather than working in /32ths! ) a foal out of my mare and him should be 7/10ths TB so should be enough blood . 

The other 4 in no particular order....
Opposition Heracles - I can't find any info about his progeny, does anyone know anything? any out competing?

Primitive proposal - nothing really I picked up on here. His progeny seem to be doing well eventing. Has anyone anything by him?

Grafenstolz - anyone know anything about his temperament? or temperament of offspring, particularly attitude to work, sharp/quirkiness? Again any offspring out eventing? particularly part TB dams?

Royaldik - on his stallion page he was listed as a good candidate to add blood to heavier mares & I love his movement. Again does anyone know of any progeny out competing? particularly out of non/part TB mares . 

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Other 4 I have down:
top 1 - Sir suave - I really want to see what he does BE this season before considering him. I really like his bloodlines though.

No particular order:

Powerblade - jumping 1.30ms = big + point, but as someone mentioned good shoulder but quite heavy fronted for TB and mare is already big chested.

Longacres samara fly - gorgeous, like the pic of him loose jumping. He hasn't done much jumping but has good bloodlines. The only thing really being can't find too much out about his youngstock, I think they are all young still. Is there anyway of searching how his young stock are doing in BEF futurities? The BEF - futurities information and results previous years - link isn't working. I think with favourable results from his young stock he would make up top 6 .

Ustinov van elsenham - I love him, he has a pretty immense if short SJ BE record - 8 SJ clears out of 10 runs up to 1* level. He had one big boob XC at Nov (Elim) and one refusal/runout at 1* level but still made the time . He is a WB so possibly not light enough for my chunky monster  but he did still make the time across country after a stop/run out at 1* level so Im guessing he's pretty nippy? . If 'light' enough he is another I would jump up my list to make a top 7 to then struggle to decide over .

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Mare has a great temperament, but equally I don't want to put her to something thats too temperamental/awkward to ride and/or handle so any reviews on temperaments also appreciated . 

Also these are mainly stallions that caught my eye, if any of them wouldn't be suited to improve on my mare conformationally, or certain ones are particularly suited then please let me know  . Thanks everyone for all your help so far .


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## foxy1 (7 May 2012)

I would be looking for something with a lot less bone than Glenhill Gold for your mare if I were you, or you are going to end up with a horse that doesn't gallop well.

Have you looked at Legrande?


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## becca1305 (7 May 2012)

hmm I did initially think that, but with limited info on him (ballinteggart stud website down) I looked up on a few of his progeny and there were a couple out of part/ non-TB mares doing well eventing (admittedly low level as all were quite young). One out of a SF mare if I remember rightly, and the pics on his FB page of them don't make them look too stocky. But this is not my area of expertise so willing to take opinions/ information on board . My mare is at least 11/16ths TB (one half of sires breeding unknown), she just doesn't look it unfortunately or choosing would be easier! .

I did look at Legrande, his owner kindly sent me a PM about him, and he is a stunning boy with a hell of a jump. But I was worried because of his breeding that he wouldn't breed something with enough gallop when put to my heifer. I really appreciate all the guidance I get and I'm not being deliberately obtuse honest! but could you explain how he would be a better choice? I know he's more of a 'modern type' WB, but Im just finding it a little confusing tbh as I thought the general theme was that WBs wouldn't be likely to produce an eventer out of my mare. If you think WBs are an option what do you think to Ustinov van elsenham please? (just trying to get a feel for what will work and what won't!) . Thankyou


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## maestro (7 May 2012)

Legrande is a beautiful stallion and the day I have a mare to suit himto have a youngster for my daughter to bring on for dressage (her passion) Iwill use him.  But IMO he is far too extravegant to produce an event unless to a pure TB.  I have 4 foals on the ground so far, 3 that typify what you want for for eventing, super light bold love to gallop.  They are by my own Weston Justice, Grafenstoltz and Chilli Morning.  The 4th although by a stallion promoted for eventing is by Royladik and is a lovely model but ponces grows roots and far rather pose than move.  I sure it will by a lovely horse in the end as long as it is educated and I do love its movement when it goes which it does when confident but still has too much suspension to cover the ground.


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## millitiger (7 May 2012)

I have a Primitive Proposal out of a 1/2 tb mare.

He is very blood (more tb type than my full tb!), has superb paces and more scope than he knows what to do with sometimes.
He is sensitive to ride but not sharp or malicious- he needs minimal aids and is very forward going.
He is admired by everyone who sees him (including many pro eventers) so it isn't just my rose tinted glasses, even though I think he is the best thing since sliced bread!

He is very tall (nearly 18hh) but both of his 1/2 brothers from the same mare are also over 17.2hh so think she throws rather huge horses!
I think he would add the blood and scope you want to improve your mare.


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## liznpatch (7 May 2012)

HI, YOUR MARE LOOKS LOVELY AND THIS IS A BIT OF A WIERD QUESTION, WHAT SADDLE DO YOU USE ON HER!? MY MARE IS VERY SIMILAR IN CONFORMATION AND I AM HAVING HELL FINDING A SADDLE TO ACCOMMODATE THE BIG SHOULDER AND LOW WITHER - MY MARE IS ALSO A ISH X SO VERY SIMILAR TO LOOK AT ASWELL!  SORRY THIS ISNT STALLION RELATED, BUT JUST SAW HER AND THOUGH I HAVE THE DOUBLE HERE AT HOME!  GOOD LUCK WITH FINDING HER A MAN!!!!


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## becca1305 (7 May 2012)

maestro - thank you thats really helpful. I do adore Le grande I think he's probably one of those kind of horses I could watch all day, but I was inclined to feel the same way you do. I love your boy, wish he was a hand taller! How are you finding the one out of grafenstolz? he is on my short list but I read a few things about possibly not having the best temperament/quirky to ride? though the underlying theme did seem to be dislike of the owner which perhaps poorly affected opinion on the stallion. Chilli morning doesnt seem to be at stud at the minute as I can't find him? Thanks for that info on royaldik offspring, I definitely want something that thinks forward, I have a TB who has a nervous disposition when ridden (Ive had him years, theres no reason for it that I can find so I can only assume its just personality) and I really don't want another paranoid freak again, when he's good he's brilliant but when he starts being a moron its so demoralising. Out of interest would you think Glenhill Gold would be too solid for her?

millitiger- he's stunning. thank you just the kind of thing I wanted to hear . all mine are very responsive and off the aids as they were trained that way, particularly my TB so I'm very used to that and would be perfectly suited . How do you find his attitude to work - is he a 'trier' for want of a better word? also confidence wise with jumping etc has he always been quite trusting/confident? I recognise they are all different but my mare is a trier and very trusting/confident/obliging, attributes that I would really like to try and keep by using a stallion with similar/producing similar offspring . 

liznpatch - thanks, no problem. She just has a jump which we also DR in at the mo. Its a mono flap equipe synergy. Fits perfectly, never had to have it altered (get it checked by saddler). I also love it . However they are latex panels which are not suitable for regular/minimal altering from the information I was given so not suitable for horse that changes shape regularly.  hope that helps. Im not sure if amerigo saddles are built on the same tree shape as the equipe, sure a search on here will tell you as that would open up quite a large range of jump saddles that would potentially suit . I also advise looking on the amerigo website they have a fantastic catalogue which tells you what type of shape horse each saddle is likely to suit .


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## maestro (7 May 2012)

The Graf. foal is a bit light of bone but is very likable It is a first foal out of a Weston Justice/ Irish mare belonging to a client andis independent and forward thinking. I could be biased and say that came from the dams side too  By the way Weston Justice has a full brother who is 17.1hh and the full brother to his dam was 17.1hh too and his stock do often make much taller than him it does depend on the dam and parentage.  I have got to try and make contact with the ChilliMorning owners for a COVERING CERT. SO i will ask his availabilty.  I am guessing West Kington will have some frozen and it is very good we have just got an FEI pony back in foal with some.


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## becca1305 (7 May 2012)

Oh thats interesting  so perhaps with my heifer graf might produce something just right on bone  & sounds like nice temperament. 
That would be good thanks, im not certain exactly when im going to put her in foal but earlier than I had initially planned so would be good to know if theyve planned to make him available somewhere AI. Do you think on my mare he would produce something too heavy as hes on 1/2 TB ? It seems a delicate balance trying to get movement and scope without losing gallop! Thanks for all your help and info


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## CILLA (9 May 2012)

Becca a friend has a Chilli Morning foal he is a lot bigger than all the other foals in the field by that i mean leggy has a very nice temperament however friend is an experienced breeder and he does seem to throw big which may suit you.
I have a two year old by Grafenstolz out of our warmblood mare Nimmerdor blood line he is clever , excellent movement and will hopefully be a good eventer for my daughter.
Does not seem fazed by anything she is at the moment halter training him ready for backing next year.


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## CILLA (9 May 2012)

Becca should have also said he is not quirky , gets on with all the other horses , has been well handled from birth picks his feet up in the right order for you , loves to be groomed but is spirited which i feel you need in an eventer he will not be plodding around !

If your mare has a good temperament will be fine with Graf.

His owner was always most helpful and still keeps in touch as likes updated photos and news every now and then .

If you want anymore info please ask.


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## becca1305 (9 May 2012)

thanks for the info  I do like chilli morning. what type of mare did she put him to do you happen to know please? I keep going round in circles  so many choices! graf is still on my list .


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## CILLA (10 May 2012)

Do not know the sire of the mare a 15.2 chestnut lighter frame than your mare put her in foal to CM because she has a good jump but is spooky XC and want something to event.

I know i am biased but our Graf foal has more about him if it stops raining !! i will get some photos taken. Graf has a facebook page lots of his foals and youngstock on there  including ours .


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## becca1305 (16 May 2012)

Hi Cilla. Just wanted to say thank you . I had my uni exam period followed by my birthday and entirely forgot to get back to you. 

And thank you to everyone else for all the helpful advice .


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## Gorvie (8 June 2012)

I have a 5 year old mare by Utah van Erpekom - she isn't coloured but she is beautiful and has super movement plus a super light, scopey jump. Her dam is a 15.2 TBX and as this was her first foal, I do not think the youngster will make much more than 15.2hh. This doesn't bother me as she was intended to be kept for ever anyway whatever her size. A friend also has a 5 yr old stallion by Utah, and he is also lovely. Utah does seem to push his quality through but as he isn't homozygous you cannot guarantee the outcome to be coloured. Good luck with your choice.


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## Lgd (8 June 2012)

Very pleased with my Spyder foalie - had forgotten about this thread until it tipped up again.

Has definitely given me a leggier  and lighter foal. He has got a helluva turn of speed on him  and likes jumping the docks in the field for fun, so looks like his new Mum has got her event horse 

https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.10150862743937978.434757.673237977&type=3&l=9ca7460d7b


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## Herts05 (9 June 2012)

Agree with Graf. Has some lovely offspring with good temperaments.
Also, not eventing, but have you thought about Argento? Saw him at Addington a couple of years ago before he started doing the big competitions. Spent a lot of time talking to John about him who said he rated him as one of his best ever. I know his fee will have gone up now, but it could be one to put into the mix.
Good Luck. Having bred my own - now 2 year old Luso x Warmblood - it is an exciting journey.


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## elijahasgal (9 June 2012)

I like Rubicell, with the stallion company, Hes not colored, but can move a dream, and is an eventer, and passing that on. I dont think he is drastically expensive either.


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## Asha (9 June 2012)

My royaldik filly is very bold, and has 2 gears - stop and full out gallop. We joke that she thinks shes a race horse. 

Why dont you visit a few BEF days that way you will get to see the eventing foals with their dams and see exactly what the stallion adds. Theres always plenty of graf foals/youngsters. Plus i believe Ken is expecting a good number of Royaldik foals too.


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## henryhorn (9 June 2012)

I'd use Armour G on her, having seen him in the flesh he has exceptionally light movement, is coloured, jumps really well and is a thoroughly nice tempered stallion. 
I tend to choose my stallions from a gut feeling watching them and he was absolutely fabulous under saddle. His competition record so far is excellent and he's a reasonable price too. Make the journey to go and see him, I promise you won't be disappointed, he would improve your mare in all the ways you want.


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## gadetra (9 June 2012)

My preference for this mare would be a full TB. I would choose Watermill Swatch, performance tested, showjumped, raced and retired sound. VERY refining, has very elegant long lined foals. He is a very fluid mover.
And with TB you can almost guarantee the refining influence-there aren't any sturdy surprises in the mix! 
If my mare had more bone it's where she'd be going!
http://kylemorestud.com/index.php?m...t,1&mff022albumid=4&mff022returnid=56&page=56


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## angrovestud (9 June 2012)

GinnieRedwings said:



			I would be surprised if it was the whole picture.

It's just the colour that has me wondering - ****as far as I am aware**** & someone might be able to tell you otherwise, there is no tobiano in ID or TB lines (the couple of coloured racehorses around are not pure TB, the tobiano was imported from an outcross to a coloured warmblood). 

There are 2 notorious lines of warmblood who carry tobiano (Samber & Oberon) and of course there is a lot of tobiano in cobs.

The tobiano gene is dominant - which means that it is always expressed in a horse that carries it (albeit sometimes minimally - Eventrider123 has just had a tobiano filly who has 4 stockings and a blaze and no other white) - it doesn't "hide" and therefore cannot reappear down a line of bay or chestnut horses. One of your mare's parents MUST have been tobiano, so there has to be more than just TB & ID in her bloodline - if she was bred in Ireland, it ***may*** be more likely to be a cob, than a coloured European warmblood.

The colour genetics mean that unless BOTH her parents were tobiano, then she cannot be homozygous for tobiano. So, statistically:

50% of a tobiano foal if covered by a plain coloured horse
75% of a tobiano foal if covered by a heterozygous tobiano horse
100% of a tobiano foal if covered by a homozygous tobiano horse

If I were trying to produce an eventer out of your mare, I would go for a pure TB with a lovely shoulder - Power Blade as mentioned before, or perhaps Watermill Swatch.

Good luck & let us know what you decide. Breeding is one of the most amazing and exciting thing you can do, every step of the way, from picking the stallion, to the birth, to sitting on your homebred for the first time (which we did yesterday with our 4 year old ) and beyond... x
		
Click to expand...

I assume your meaning our coloured racehorse he is by a 3/4 TB out of an I.d mare no warmblood in there! I would say that we use to own a Stallion who woul suit you if you want to breed eventers showjumpers he is called Ricco and stands in Cheshire I am sure you will find him through google! 
I have pics of his 2 sons so you can see what he produces


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## HelenE17Hh (28 March 2017)

Hi Becca I know it's 5 years since you posted but wondered which stallion you chose for your mare. We had a very successful event mare by Flash who looked exactly like yours, and bred 4 excellent foals, by Up with the Lark, Royaldik, Silvio and Amour G. Contact me if you get this, please as we'd love to know how things went


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