# wwyd dilemma



## Parisexx (19 January 2014)

Hi all, moral dilemma here. I have a 20+ mare that I have owed for 6 years.  Long story but didnt realise she was this old when I bought her (passport wrong/fake) .
Dilemma is that I cannot afford her anymore. I need /want to move out of home as im 25 years old and want to start a life of my own. Trouble is what to do with the mare? 
She has sweet itch and arthritis but not currently on any medication. I dnt enjoy horses anymore and resent the fact that I could be stuck at home for another ten years or so and me and my OH desperately want a place of our own. Shes a lovely mare and its not her fault 
Open to ideas please thanks


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## AdorableAlice (19 January 2014)

Give her a decent bucket of grub and put her down at home.


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## Foxy O (19 January 2014)

Some people might come on here and suggest you pts but I took on an old horse on permanent loan and lots of other people on this site have done the same and said how great it has been for them. So if I were you I would try and find a permanent loan home for her as a happy hacker. I don't think people would be willing to pay for a horse of that age though.


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## hnmisty (19 January 2014)

AdorableAlice said:



			Give her a decent bucket of grub and put her down at home.
		
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Afraid that's your only option. You could try rehoming her as a companion but that market is saturated, and the charities are overflowing with welfare cases. Only responsible thing you can do is PTS and realise that horses can live into their 30s.


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## crazyhorse37 (19 January 2014)

A horse is for life, not just for when it suits you.  This is something that you need to think about before you buy a horse, no matter whether you were misled.  At some point she still would have got to this age.  Putting her down for your own benefit is totally irresponsible.  When family become a burden we don't give them a meal and 'put them down'.  Sorry, I think that you have to find a solution other than the easy way out above.  Charities are over-run because of people not thinking about the consequences of buying a horse.


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## oldjumper (19 January 2014)

AdorableAlice said:



			Give her a decent bucket of grub and put her down at home.
		
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Thats what I'd do as well and stay with her to the end. If more people made such a brave decision, we would have fewer neglected old horses.


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## Flicker51 (19 January 2014)

If she is ok to hack I would try to get her a happy hacker type home - if not I think Adorable Alice is right - I wouldnt risk selling her on as you dont know where she will end up.


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## crazyhorse37 (19 January 2014)

oldjumper said:



			Thats what I'd do as well and stay with her to the end. If more people made such a brave decision, we would have fewer neglected old horses.
		
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Brave?  Did you not see the part about the horse NOT being ill.  This is a selfish and irresponsible act that is only because the owner can't be bothered any more.  That is NOT responsible horse ownership. 

I have an older horse and I get fed up with not being able to join in with everyone else jumping and schooling, but my mare is happy and is not ready to die just because I want to do more.  She is 24 and could live for another 10 years.  I will just have to continue to look after her well and enjoy her company until she is ready to go.  Of course I would love a faster model and/or no responsibility, but I took on my mare and so I must look after till the end.   I knew that when I bought her as an 8 year old and she has spent the majority of the time out of work or recovering, but that's just what comes with the territory.  They are pets first and work animals second.  You have to look after them even if they are no longer what you wanted.


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## Parisexx (19 January 2014)

Sorry forgot to put, she is unrideable as well due to the arthritus in the neck as well. I realise horses are for life not just when they are useful yes she has been retired for nearly two years now. Its keep her and live at home for how ever long which I dnt want to do or something has to happen with the mare x


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## Parisexx (19 January 2014)

Do u live at home crazy horse??? Are u prepared to live with ur mummy until the horse is old/ill enough to be put to sleep. My OH is totally unhorsey yet doesnt want her put down but we desperately want a place. We have been together 8 years and still cannot afford to move out due to the horse


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## hayinamanger (19 January 2014)

Please, do the decent thing and put her to sleep.


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## cptrayes (19 January 2014)

crazyhorse37 said:



			A horse is for life, not just for when it suits you.  This is something that you need to think about before you buy a horse, no matter whether you were misled.  At some point she still would have got to this age.  Putting her down for your own benefit is totally irresponsible.  When family become a burden we don't give them a meal and 'put them down'.  Sorry, I think that you have to find a solution other than the easy way out above.  Charities are over-run because of people not thinking about the consequences of buying a horse.
		
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So speaks someone who has never had a horse which they thought they had rehomed to a really smart yard, with a really nice person who gave references, starved to within an inch of his life.

OP the only way to guarantee this horse a safe future is to have her put to sleep at home.

Whatever you do, do not respond to anyone from south Wales offering a home for life from this forum. Sorry to tar all of you in south Wales with the same brush, but buddy's mummy is a serial offender with many different logins.

Do not feel guilty. If you put your horse to sleep, the few and far between people who might have offered her a secure future will take on another horse from somewhere which will then not be put to sleep. To the totality of horse kind, it makes no difference. To your own pace of mind, it will make plenty.


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## be positive (19 January 2014)

crazyhorse37 said:



			A horse is for life, not just for when it suits you.  This is something that you need to think about before you buy a horse, no matter whether you were misled.  At some point she still would have got to this age.  Putting her down for your own benefit is totally irresponsible.  When family become a burden we don't give them a meal and 'put them down'.  Sorry, I think that you have to find a solution other than the easy way out above.  Charities are over-run because of people not thinking about the consequences of buying a horse.
		
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Having a horse pts is not always taking the easy way out, charities would not be so overrun if people used this option rather than passing "useless" horses on without thinking of the long term future, especially the old and unsound ones, not all can end up as companions.
I think having her pts is the responsible solution, yes in an ideal world they would be kept forever until they die quietly in their sleep but we do have the option of giving a peaceful end to older horses that have come towards the end of their life, many people would actually prefer this option rather than be kept going but that is best kept for another thread.


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## Foxy O (19 January 2014)

As she can't be ridden then you probably won't be able to rehome her, would your parents look after her if you moved out? If not and you are set on moving out then pts may be your answer, personally though I don't think I could live with myself if I did that, but each to their own


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## cptrayes (19 January 2014)

crazyhorse37 said:



			Brave?  Did you not see the part about the horse NOT being ill.  This is a selfish and irresponsible act that is only because the owner can't be bothered any more.  That is NOT responsible horse ownership. 

I have an older horse and I get fed up with not being able to join in with everyone else jumping and schooling, but my mare is happy and is not ready to die just because I want to do more.  She is 24 and could live for another 10 years.  I will just have to continue to look after her well and enjoy her company until she is ready to go.  Of course I would love a faster model and/or no responsibility, but I took on my mare and so I must look after till the end.   I knew that when I bought her as an 8 year old and she has spent the majority of the time out of work or recovering, but that's just what comes with the territory.  They are pets first and work animals second.  You have to look after them even if they are no longer what you wanted.
		
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Please stop telling the rest of us who do not agree with your views what we 'have' to do.

And please understand that you do what you do with your old horse because it makes you feel good about yourself.

If it does not make the OP feel good about herself or what she is imposing on her partner, then it is my opinion, equally as valid as yours, that the responsible thing to do for all concerned is to put this horse down.


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## cptrayes (19 January 2014)

Foxy O said:



			As she can't be ridden then you probably won't be able to rehome her, would your parents look after her if you moved out? If not and you are set on moving out then pts may be your answer, personally though I don't think I could live with myself if I did that, but each to their own
		
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You'd seriously choose to do the wrong thing by your partner than offer a dignified end and a pain free future to a disabled horse?

Really???????


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## Parisexx (19 January 2014)

Pts is what I have been thinking, obviously id feel horrendously guilty and my partner thinks id regret it x


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## Foxy O (19 January 2014)

I think everybody is entitled to their own opinion. I was just saying that if it was my old boy I couldn't bear to part with him just because my OH wanted us to move out and move on. If my horse was suffering then I would pts but if he was happy enough and like this horse, not on any medication then I personally would keep him until it was time to pts but I understand that this person has to make up her own mind.


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## amandap (19 January 2014)

What you do is up to you op and you alone I'm afraid. 

I am dreading if I can no longer look after mine as I don't think I could pts as they are healthy even though two are old. I have had a very sick pony pts but I was 100% certain it was the best for him and have never had a moments regret.


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## Magnetic Sparrow (19 January 2014)

For what its worth, I would pts under these circumstances.


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## SillySausage (19 January 2014)

OP I feel for you as I have an old horse who has been retired for a year now, and I cannot afford another until he passes (I do not live with parents and am self sufficient).

In the summer I have found him a large field which he shares with four other ponies, two of which never leave the field. I do not go down every day (as the field owner does) and he costs me peanuts as he is not fed and I pay basic grass livery. In the winter I pay for him to come on to a yard so that he can be stabled through the wet (he gets chronic mud fever) and be fed so that he doesn't drop weight. In saving money in the summer, I can then afford for him through the winter. I am on a very low wage and I appreciate that I was lucky in finding the field that I have, but maybe you could find a similar set-up? Or all year grass livery if he can live out in winter?

If I could not guarantee his future I would have him PTS.


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## cptrayes (19 January 2014)

Foxy O said:



			I think everybody is entitled to their own opinion. I was just saying that if it was my old boy I couldn't bear to part with him just because my OH wanted us to move out and move on. If my horse was suffering then I would pts but if he was happy enough and like this horse, not on any medication then I personally would keep him until it was time to pts but I understand that this person has to make up her own mind.
		
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Says a heck of a lot about your relationship if you really would force your OH to continue living with your parents for the sake of an old unrideable horse.  Takes all sorts


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## Arizahn (19 January 2014)

As this mare is elderly, and has arthritis to the point that she has been retired for two years already, I would consider PTS for her sake. Maybe discuss her quality of life with your vet first, and arrange to let her have this final summer, if the vet feels that it is for the best. That allows you to arrange everything properly, including disposal. I wouldn't sell her, and if you do loan you will have to allow for them returning her. Another option is retirement livery at grass - would this suit her?

Where moving out is concerned, I think you and your OH should start saving up for a deposit in the area where you want to live. Moving out is really stressful and expensive, so it isn't something to rush. It can take months to find a nice place that suits both people. I also doubt that the cost of keeping one retired horse will cover the cost of running a home, sorry. So you may need to look at the finances too.

All the best to your mare, and hope you figure something out.


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## Parisexx (19 January 2014)

Thank u all for being understanding x


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## Arniebear (19 January 2014)

Can you not find a field/herd to put her in and just leave her to be a horse? I realise this isnt always an option but i paid £14 a week to put an injured horse out to grass, i wasnt obliged to see him everyday as the herd were checked on twice daily, the only extra thing he cost me was a £10 trim every 3 months, thats only a takeway less a week  if this isnt an option then i would also pts


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## Parisexx (19 January 2014)

I live in essex so livery with t/o is hard enough to find let alone grass livery/field to rent x


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## HaffiesRock (19 January 2014)

I can see this from all the angles previously stated. In an ideal world we keep a horse for life, all those years ago when OP bought the horse, she wasn't to know what the future held either financially or personally. OP also states she has lost her love of horses so in that sense it is unfair on the horse in question to live out its days unloved and a burden. If I was the OP I would have the horse put to sleep and know in my heart I have done the best thing for the horse, as well as my personal future.

Some of the people claiming the horse must be kept till its dying day is unfair. For example, I love my ponies more than anything, but if anything ever happened to them that meant a considerable amount of time on box rest or colic surgery for example even if a positive outcome in the end was likely, I wouldn't put them through that and would have them put to sleep. Is that wrong? No, of course it isn't, its me making a decision based on the welfare of my ponies and myself, just as the OP is trying to do here.

I don't agree horses should be put down for the convenience of a human, but in this case I think its the kindest option for the horse so the OP can start her future. 

Good luck with whatever you choose to do OP. x


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## Foxy O (19 January 2014)

cptrayes said:



			Says a heck of a lot about your relationship if you really would force your OH to continue living with your parents for the sake of an old unrideable horse.  Takes all sorts 

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My husband and I bought a house with land so I can keep the horses at home as he knows how important they are to me and I have a feeling they are growing on him as well as he can't walk past them without making a fuss of them, the pony is only a companion and not ridden but when I go out riding my husband takes the pony for walks or makes a fuss of him


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## Sugar_and_Spice (19 January 2014)

Foxy O said:



			I think everybody is entitled to their own opinion. I was just saying that if it was my old boy I couldn't bear to part with him just because my OH wanted us to move out and move on. If my horse was suffering then I would pts but if he was happy enough and like this horse, not on any medication then I personally would keep him until it was time to pts but I understand that this person has to make up her own mind.
		
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The OP isn't only considering it because of their partner, the OP also wants to move out for themselves and is resentful of the horse. 

OP I can't say if you'd regret it or not,but for various reasons I have been in the position several times of resenting a horse, but with a change in circumstances I've always been glad I didn't sell or PTS. I think for me it was the poor quality of my life (at the time) that I resented, rather than the horse itself. I just somehow ended up viewing the horse as the problem each time.

In the current market I don't think you have any chance of finding a home for your horse (who would care for her rather than sell on for a profit, I mean). I would PTS if you can't/don't want to keep her any more. Even if you was lucky enough to find a genuinely lovely home, people have a tendency to treat it as a 'loan' situation (even if you sold) and expect you to take the horse back, possibly at short notice, when a problem occurs meaning they can no longer keep the horse and/or it needs to be PTS.


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## Parisexx (19 January 2014)

Thank u haffiesrock, put it across better than me. I have lost the love of horses unfortunately but still care enough for the mare that she cannot b sold as she will end up god knows where x


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## Jesstickle (19 January 2014)

cptrayes said:



			Says a heck of a lot about your relationship if you really would force your OH to continue living with your parents for the sake of an old unrideable horse.  Takes all sorts 

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I often find myself thinking this when I come on here!

OP, she's a horse, she won't have any idea about it. There are many worse fates than a bullet. If you do decide that is what you have to do then don't beat yourself up over it. I'm sure she has had a nice life with you and it is quality not quantity which matters. 

I certainly wouldn't hesitate in your position to PTS. Sorry if that offends people but I wouldn't even question my decision!


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## Parisexx (19 January 2014)

The OH is happy for me to keep her but we both want to move out and its not fair on him especially as im not enjoying it anymore x


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## Parisexx (19 January 2014)

Thanks jesstickle, think I needed someone to tell me not that it was the right thing but I shouldn't feel bad x


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## Pinkvboots (19 January 2014)

Parisexx said:



			Pts is what I have been thinking, obviously id feel horrendously guilty and my partner thinks id regret it x[/have you tried to find a way of keeping her as cheaply as possible? I only ask as you seem unsure about pts right now, not that I think it would be the wrong choice but I think you have to be sure about it, there will be people that think its wrong but at the end of the day its nothing to do with them.
		
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## babymare (19 January 2014)

in an ideal world yes we would keep all our horses to they take their last breathe naturally but sadly it is not and sometimes circumstances can reflect in our decisions. OP if you cant secure her future PTS.Be there for her at end. And ,i say this from personal expetience, hold no guilt(though if like me you will  ). she is an aged mare wth athritis and with the equine situation in saturation state yes you may find a companion hime but personally you will struggle to rehome. Far far worse can happen to her than PTS. Reality of life sometimes gives us hard decisions. hugs x x


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## HaffiesRock (19 January 2014)

Parisexx said:



			Thank u haffiesrock, put it across better than me. I have lost the love of horses unfortunately but still care enough for the mare that she cannot b sold as she will end up god knows where x
		
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Ignore the people on here preaching to you. You need to do what is best for you and your future and the fact you care enough about the mare to make a decision on her welfare is to your credit. It would be very easy to offer her free to a good home and pass her over to the first taker. You don't want to do this so I would give you vet or local hunt a call and make some arrangements for her to go over rainbow bridge. In this case, it is the kindest thing for all involved. x


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## cptrayes (19 January 2014)

Foxy O said:



			My husband and I bought a house with land so I can keep the horses at home as he knows how important they are to me and I have a feeling they are growing on him as well as he can't walk past them without making a fuss of them, the pony is only a companion and not ridden but when I go out riding my husband takes the pony for walks or makes a fuss of him
		
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You bought a house with land?

How many people do you think can afford that option????????????

Certainly not an option for this poster. Knowing that, do you still think she should force her OH to continue to live with her parents for the sake of an old infirm horse?


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## Love (19 January 2014)

OP you have 2 options. 

1.) try and find someone else to take this mare on, knowing that once you do there is nothing to stop her ending up having an uncertain future, ending up who knows where and in who knows what state. Yes you might luckily find someone genuine to take her but you don't know that until it's too late. I know I wouldn't take the risk with such an old, unrideable horse. 

2.) have her pts knowing she went without realising a thing and that you have secured her future and know she will never ever end up in the wrong hands. 

I know which I'd pick, but essentially those are your options. In a nutshell.


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## hnmisty (19 January 2014)

Even if you kept her cheaply, at the end of the day you are still having to put the time into looking after her.

There is no shame in having an elderly pony whose future would be uncertain with a new owner PTS. Just make sure her final days are in comfort, and be with her at the end.

If you had come on here saying you were giving her away as a companion you would also have people telling you that's wrong. It's easily said if they aren't in your shoes.

Good luck.


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## Parisexx (19 January 2014)

Thanks all, (most!) have been lovely and understanding x


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## crazyhorse37 (19 January 2014)

Actually wasn't preaching to parisexx who said nothing in her original post about pts, but to the others who all just jump on the band wagon of they are a tie, get rid.  They are a tie.  I do not live with my mum, but would do so if I needed to for my girlie.  I do feel she is a heck of a burden, but that doesn't give me the right to pts.  My mare is actually on meds for her arthritis and I myself am a physio, so know better than most what it is like for the horse and how a life in a field will be perfectly fine for her.  I do understand the dilemma, but unfortunately don't think pts is fair on the mare to make your life easier.  There is a place in devon that takes horses for retirement.  The lady does all the looking after and it is cheaper for this service than most DIY places.  Don't know if this is maybe a good option for you?  The horse will be looked after in herd turnout for the rest of her days and given a graceful end when the time is right for her rather than you.  I can get details for you if you are interested in giving her a call.


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## Jesstickle (19 January 2014)

crazyhorse37 said:



			Actually wasn't preaching to parisexx who said nothing in her original post about pts, but to the others who all just jump on the band wagon of they are a tie, get rid.  They are a tie.  I do not live with my mum, but would do so if I needed to for my girlie.  I do feel she is a heck of a burden, but that doesn't give me the right to pts.  My mare is actually on meds for her arthritis and I myself am a physio, so know better than most what it is like for the horse and how a life in a field will be perfectly fine for her.  I do understand the dilemma, but unfortunately don't think pts is fair on the mare to make your life easier.  There is a place in devon that takes horses for retirement.  The lady does all the looking after and it is cheaper for this service than most DIY places.  Don't know if this is maybe a good option for you?  The horse will be looked after in herd turnout for the rest of her days and given a graceful end when the time is right for her rather than you.  I can get details for you if you are interested in giving her a call.
		
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That's nice that you are happy to put your poor mother out to look after a horse. 

I know what my Mother would say if I said I was moving back home due to some insane need to keep an elderly, arthritic horse going. It wouldn't be polite! 

I eat animals, I refuse to be sentimental over a horse and give it special status. If I will eat a lamb I can certainly PTS a horse if it is unfeasible for me to care for it without seriously damaging my own life/


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## BBH (19 January 2014)

cptrayes said:



			You bought a house with land?

How many people do you think can afford that option????????????

Certainly not an option for this poster. Knowing that, do you still think she should force her OH to continue to live with her parents for the sake of an old infirm horse?
		
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Many people have a house with land. Why the surprise. Makes much more financial sense than paying livery for years on end with nothing to show for it. 

As for the OP I don't agree with PTS for convenience sake but if the mare is pain free then I'd personally give her a good last summer and PTS before winter . If you parents are happy to check her it wouldn't hinder your plans to move.


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## noodle_ (19 January 2014)

OP i agree with the pTS camp....if you cannot afford her pts.... only way to guarantee her future...



for the "buy a house with land" camp...........REALLLY?!!!!!!!!!

i cant even afford to buy a house!!!......never mind one with land!.... i wish!!


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## BBH (19 January 2014)

Work harder then, think outside the box, buy land to self build, buy in a cheap area and move when more financially established . Make sacrifices , second jobs.

I'm s firm believer if you want something badly enough you'll find a way.


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## Love (19 January 2014)

BBH said:



			Work harder the
		
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I think that's uncalled for


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## Jesstickle (19 January 2014)

I work very hard and have a good income, as does OH, and I can't afford to buy a house with land?! Confused as to how working harder would change this as it wouldn't magically double my salary, just mean I worked a lot of unpaid overtime!


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## BBH (19 January 2014)

No it's not. Aspiration is a good thing.


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## HaffiesRock (19 January 2014)

BBH said:



			Work harder then, think outside the box, buy land to self build, buy in a cheap area and move when more financially established . Make sacrifices , second jobs.

I'm s firm believer if you want something badly enough you'll find a way.
		
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Its not always that simple BBH and its unfair to claim that it is. I earn good money, OH earns excellent money, we are well off, we own a home but we certainly couldn't afford to buy one with land or we would have by now. Not everyone is as fortunate as others, no matter how hard they work.


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## Love (19 January 2014)

BBH said:



			Work harder then, think outside the box, buy land to self build, buy in a cheap area and move when more financially established . Make sacrifices , second jobs.

I'm s firm believer if you want something badly enough you'll find a way.
		
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Guessing you pressed send before you meant to as this comment was unfinished when I quoted it. This makes more sense so want to apologise for my comment above


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## BBH (19 January 2014)

People are either the sort to accept their 'lot 'or they aren't .
We live in a society where we are free to become whatever we wish and anyone can make money with a bit of entrepreneurial spirit and vision.
The choice is ours to make.


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## BBH (19 January 2014)

Love said:



			Guessing you pressed send before you meant to as this comment was unfinished when I quoted it. This makes more sense so want to apologise for my comment above
		
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Haha sorry its my iPhone , a bit quick sometimes. Edited for spelling and I still see an s instead of an a


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## Jesstickle (19 January 2014)

BBH said:



			People are either the sort to accept their 'lot 'or they aren't .
We live in a society where we are free to become whatever we wish and anyone can make money with a bit of entrepreneurial spirit and vision.
The choice is ours to make.
		
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ahh but that assumes money is everything. I want a house with land, but I also want to do the job I do as I feel it is very important. So to buy what I want I would have to leave the poorly paid but worthwhile industry I work in. It isn't just a case of work harder, people have to balance things. If we all just chased money the world would be a much poorer place...


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## hnmisty (19 January 2014)

Buying property these days as a young person starting out isn't easy. I'm 25, and the only friends of mine who have bought a house have done so with help from their parents. I am very fortunate that my nanny left everything between her grandchildren, my friends who aren't so fortunate have got a long slog ahead of them. That includes my friend who is a civil engineer who frequently works 12 hour days and weekends without overtime so he can get his chartered status. If I didn't have the money from my nanny I would never have bought Barry, I would be desperately saving for a house deposit.


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## BBH (19 January 2014)

Is Barry your horse ? Such a cool name.

People who really want something will find a way of getting it. People who just talk about the 9 -5 are not those with the necessary vision and outlook. An entrepreneur will be looking at ways of generating income from other means aswell as salary , ie starting a business on the side.
Even something like buying a big house / land as a group like a commune achieves the goal . 
It's just thinking differently .
But as jess says not everyone wants it but those that do will find a way .nothing worth having is easy and I'm not saying it is .


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## cptrayes (19 January 2014)

BBH said:



			We live in a society where we are free to become whatever we wish and anyone can make money with a bit of entrepreneurial spirit and vision.
The choice is ours to make.
		
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What utterly simplistic and total nonsense, showing no understanding whatsoever of the range of abilities, temperament and personality that are found in the human race.

So you seriously think that anyone on the till at Tesco can choose to become a self made rich entrepreneur, if only they try hard enough??

How utterly insulting to the vast majority of lovely ordinary people In this country.


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## Exploding Chestnuts (19 January 2014)

OK lets all calm down............... OP has asked our opinion, she has had enough opinions, now she has to decide what to do, there are few options............
remember when she bought the mare she was only 19 and she did not think she would have a horse for life. We don't all want a horse for life, personally my view was that I would take one on, improve it and then find a more suitable home.


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## BBH (19 January 2014)

CPtrays why can't you add anything of value instead of putting down everyone who says something you don't agree with.
You come across as a miserable old bint.


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## cptrayes (19 January 2014)

BBH said:



			Many people have a house with land. Why the surprise. Makes much more financial sense than paying livery for years on end with nothing to show for it.
		
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I have a house with land. I know first hand how difficult it was to achieve my dream. It took many changes of job and of location, and many years. Yes, it makes more financial sense than paying livery.

But the OP is needing to stop paying for a horse simply to leave home.

No-one who lives in the real world can think that she will be able to buy a house with land to keep the horse on, can they? Do you have any idea that in this part of the world it adds at least a hundred thousand to the value of a house for it to come with a pony size paddock?

My friend was recently sent details for an ex council semi detached two bed in a less than attractive area with a small paddock and a stable  - £275,000 when that house alone would sell at around £100,000.

Your views are unreal BBH.


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## cptrayes (19 January 2014)

BBH said:



			CPtrays why can't you add anything of value instead of putting down everyone who says something you don't agree with.
You come across as a miserable old bint.
		
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Last resort of those who don't have a decent argument is to descend to personal abuse.

I would rather be anyone than someone who thinks low paid people are only low paid because they can't be bothered to be anything else.


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## Parisexx (19 January 2014)

No i cannot afford to buy a one bed room flat let alone a house with land! How ridiculous,  me and my partner work full time Jobs but the 200 pound that I spend on our elderly unridden horse needs to go towards a flat (renting!) The place in Devon for retirement livery is still 200 a month


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## Wagtail (19 January 2014)

Heck I feel guilty enough putting my lovely mare to sleep when it was done for her own benefit as she had no future and I couldn't bear to see her deteriorate, knowing I would never be able to turn her out in a field again. So I would feel even worse if I PTS a horse for my own benefit.

However, if your mare has arthritis in her neck, then this can be extremely painful. It may be that she is not enjoying life. There are not many options open to a 20 year old horse that cannot be ridden. And if you don't want her, then you have to ensure her future. The only thing that will do that is to PTS at home. Only you know if you would feel guilty. Everyone is different.


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## Gingerwitch (19 January 2014)

I would much rather someone pts then keep a horse they dont really want anymore, especially when they are older and have health issues.


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## BBH (19 January 2014)

Where did I ever say someone can leave home and buy a house / land as their next home? 
It takes years of hard slog but it can be done if you want it .

My views are not unreal. I started with nothing and now have all I want through bloomin hard work and doing a lot of what I've suggested on my posts.

I hate it when people pidgeon hole ' those poor people on the checkout ' as if they can't possibly want to better their lot and never mind they should have the wherewithal to do it. How arrogant .


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## honetpot (19 January 2014)

You have to do what's best for you and your partner in the long term. You know this horse will never get any better and the day it breathes its last breath will seem like any other day to the horse as long as its not in distress or pain. So having her put to sleep is sad but there are many positives for her and for you.
 I have my own land and a variety of old ponies many in their twenties but I would not think twice about having them PTS if I thought my relationship with my husband and family was likely to suffer. You are being realistic and responsible.


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## HazyXmas (19 January 2014)

Hi OP

i personally think that you know what the right & sensible thing to do is?

 I have children around your age & i would give them the same advice. It's time for you to move on with your life & if an elderly, arthritic mare that you can't ride & don't enjoy any more, is stopping that then the kindest option is to have her PTS. This country is over-run with old, un-wanted, neglected & poorly bred horses & i wish that more people, including the charities, you step up to the mark & put these horses out of their misery. I do know how difficult this decision is, i have sadly had to make it three times & currently have my daughter's old event pony who will be 23 in May so it is never far from my mind.

You are grown up & the decision is yours alone to make, but it is what i personally would do. Best wishes.


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## babymare (19 January 2014)

nicely put hazyXmas. x


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## Parisexx (19 January 2014)

U made me cry hazyxmas  thank u for being honest and frank but lovely xx


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## noodle_ (19 January 2014)

BBH said:



			Where did I ever say someone can leave home and buy a house / land as their next home? 
It takes years of hard slog but it can be done if you want it .

My views are not unreal. I started with nothing and now have all I want through bloomin hard work and doing a lot of what I've suggested on my posts.

I hate it when people pidgeon hole ' those poor people on the checkout ' as if they can't possibly want to better their lot and never mind they should have the wherewithal to do it. How arrogant .
		
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But you said it like suggesting go buy a house with land now??! 

Those on an average 20k a year cannot afford to buy a house.... So land is a no no! 

I'm grateful I have a job tbh.... I'd love a house with land ain't gna happen anytime soon unless I rent!


Back to the post.....


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## DJ (19 January 2014)

I don`t think you`d be doing her a disservice putting to sleep with a bucket full of food. 

I have an old mare out on permanent loan, they know if they ever can`t keep her, she can come back to me .... If she ever did come back to me, she`d have one last summer and i`d then PTS before winter set in. I have field livery, and i`m not in a position to cater for a 20 year old aged TB (no matter how much i love her) ... 

I really cannot see the big hoohar about PTS ..... Seriously??? ..... It is so much better for ANY horse, ill or not (if it isn`t useful), to go peacefully with it`s owner, instead of being passed about from pillar to post and ending up on a live export meat wagon or worse. There are dead and abandoned horses turning up left right and centre every day at the minute, surely it is better to prevent that happening to our much loved equines. 

I know what i`d do, and it wouldn`t be passing her on to someone else .... you have given her a good life, that is what you should focus on.


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## SatansLittleHelper (19 January 2014)

BBH said:



			CPtrays why can't you add anything of value instead of putting down everyone who says something you don't agree with.
You come across as a miserable old bint.
		
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Crikey...how downright rude!!!!
CPtrays is a realist who has made sensible comments. You however sound like some kind of money crazed Alan Sugar wannabe :eek3:

OP...put your horse down guilt free. And good luck xxx


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## Parisexx (19 January 2014)

Thanks again all xx


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## ridefast (19 January 2014)

I think the best option would be pts OP, You have then guaranteed she will never suffer from pain or hunger or any other form of neglect or abuse. Don't feel bad about it, the decision has to be made with every horse and better that it happens to yours in a place where she knows and is settled, and before she really deteriorates.


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## LittleRooketRider (19 January 2014)

i'm not saying pts is 100% no questions asked is what you should do but I don't think it would be the wrong thing to do if that makes sense  all the best whatever you do


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## windand rain (19 January 2014)

Dnt feel guilty if you have to PTS to move on with your life she has no sense of future only cares that she gets her next meal and is loved and not in pain. Sounds to me like after two years of retirement the time has come for both of you. She is in pain if she is arthritic I am so I know. She doesnt have a future her quality of life will deteriorate and so a little time too soon is always better than a little time too late. Bless you there is no market You are heading out into a new life and you should make the best of that She has reached the end of hers and will be out of pain and will never suffer if that is the decision you make it is the final kindness anyone can give an animal just wish it was an option for some humans too


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## Goldenstar (19 January 2014)

OP your choice is your own .
But based on what you have posted I would understand if you PTS your old girl on a nice day with her head in a bucket.
A dignified end at home is much much better than the risk of passing on old lame horse on to god knows where.
It is a hard desision but if I where you I would PTS .


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## Crugeran Celt (19 January 2014)

I to have an elderly mare that has had health issues for the majority of her life, bred her myself and she was retired by the age of about seven, is now rising 21 and has been a field ornament for all that time. Luckily I can afford to keep her this way but if ever there was a time I couldn't I wouldn't hesitate to PTS. Having read so many horror stories of horses who have been loaned out to 'forever homes' only to find out they have been either sold for meat or drugged up and sold as riding horses. I would never risk this happening to my mare and feel it is kinder to PTS than to possibly put the animal under huge stress by rehoming to an uncaring new owner.  I really don't think making a decision to PTS can be called uncaring, sometimes it is the most caring thing you will have ever have to do for your horse.


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## Tobiano (19 January 2014)

It is a horrible situation for you OP but I imagine it is more common than many of us may like to think.  A horse is just too big a commitment and expense to keep and pay for for life, come what may.  I certainly dont think I can judge because I have never yet had an old horse to keep that I cannot ride or afford quite comfortably.  Many people (not talking about the regulars on here who seem to be a nobler breed!) probably only keep horses in their prime and sell them on when still young enough to have a secure (immediate anyway) future.  I have certainly done that though I know where all bar one of mine are.  

To be honest I think that if an owner gives their horse 2 years of retirement, more if they can, and then has them PTS humanely at home, that is responsible horse owning and people should not feel guilty about it or be judged by others.


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## Parisexx (19 January 2014)

U have been ever so kind xx


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## Goldenstar (19 January 2014)

Parisexx said:



			U have been ever so kind xx
		
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Perhaps you should contact the BHS and see if they have one of their friend at the end people near you . They will talk to you one to one and help you through it.


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## julie111 (19 January 2014)

I think you have already decided what to do with her!


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## Parisexx (19 January 2014)

Julie leave off please
Golden star I have not heard of the service x


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## Bestdogdash (19 January 2014)

Crazy horse - you are well named ! A horse is not a pet - it is a working animal and should have a job to do - sometimes the job is companion, but it is still a job.  This old horse has had a couple of years enjoyable retirement according to the OP, and the best option here is, as many have suggested, a bucket of super grub and shot  by a professional at home. If only all old horses were that lucky. CH your attitude is ridiculous. OP do the decent thing and PTS.


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## julie111 (19 January 2014)

Parisexx said:



			Julie leave off please
Golden star I have not heard of the service x
		
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I am entitled to comment, and yes I do believe you had already made the decision to pts!


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## Goldenstar (19 January 2014)

They are volunteers who support people taking this desision I don't know if anyone is near you but if you ring the BHS they will tell you how it works .
Failing that do have a older horsey friend who would talk with you I would if I knew you and lived near.
The problem with threads like this is they can get a bit heated with everyone giving their views ( as they ought ) but sometimes a bit of one to one is needed .
I for one admire your honesty in posting your dilemma .


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## Parisexx (19 January 2014)

I hadnt and still havnt made any decisions.  Any decision will be throughly thought about and will be the best for me and the mare. I could have got rid when I found out the mare was much older than what I thought but I didnt, I gave her a couple years of retirement but now I need to move on in my life. I will not get another horse, I want a life with my long term Oh


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## Louby (19 January 2014)

Gosh, prepared to get hung drawn and quartered for this 
I had a 12 yr old mare, its years ago now, she was unrideable due to Navic was a LOU claim, yes I realise things have now moved on a bit, was basically a pet and I cared for her well, but deep down I wanted to ride and couldnt imagine the next 10 to 20 years not doing so, so I found her a 'forever home' and went on to buy another horse, then months later I received a call asking for more details about her.  I couldnt believe it, she was up for sale, the seller hadnt hidden anything and had told the prospective buyer everything, even giving my number to verify! but I wasnt in a position to buy her back   I never heard from that person again, was so upset about it and regret the day I parted with her, to what I thought was a secure future as a companion.  I would never do this again, still beat myself up about it and feel incredibly guilty.  What Im getting at OP is IMO if your horse was healthy but old then maybe Id say hang on a minute its not her fault, but she isnt and if you decide to PTS then do not feel guilty, she is an old girl with health issues and deserves a better ending than my poor girl did.


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## Parisexx (19 January 2014)

I will definitely do that golden star thank u x


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## Parisexx (19 January 2014)

Im so sorry to hear that louby, how awful  xx


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## Little Alfie (19 January 2014)

Goldenstar said:



			OP your choice is your own .
But based on what you have posted I would understand if you PTS your old girl on a nice day with her head in a bucket.
A dignified end at home is much much better than the risk of passing on old lame horse on to god knows where.
It is a hard desision but if I where you I would PTS .
		
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This

Good luck whatever you decide to do


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## Louby (19 January 2014)

Thanks Parisexx, Ive never said it before as I still feel so guilty about it  but read your post and do feel for you.   My boy isnt well at the moment and I fear I will have similar decisions to make in the near future, its not easy, infact its awful.  You have been very brave to post your situation on a forum and what ever you decide to do, just think of your horses future then hopefully you will have a clear conscience,  Hugs.


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## sophspot (19 January 2014)

I'm genuinely surprised by the answers in this thread.I would only pts with regards to the horse's quality of life, not because I wanted to move out from home. Please think of your long term life changes next time you purchase an animal. I worked 2 jobs to pay for my horse at 17 so i could pay for my horse & yes it was tough put it taught me about


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## sophspot (19 January 2014)

Being responsible .........


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## Parisexx (19 January 2014)

Being responsible is not passing on an old lame horse when u cannot keep her anymorr


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## babymare (19 January 2014)

parisexx. I fully understand how you are feeling. Baby had been abused before i got her resulting in major stress issues which in time i managed but were always there.Add to mix her failng sight, a move for me 45 miles from yard to be with OH,a monthly bill of £300 + a month, petrol &time, elderly mother with dimentia i also had to sit down and make decisions. I could have tried to move baby but i knew, as did people who knew baby, mentally she would not have coped. someone offered to take her but I couldnt pass her off like that given her problems so I planned the day and said sweetdreams to her. i had owned her for 7 years she was my friend,my rock through my own abusive relationship. Oh i did fill guilt at beginning but now i feel relieved. My life is calmer. im no longer living on credit card.My life with my Lovely kind OH is the  happiest ive been for many years. But not a day goes by that i dont miss her and some days i still cry. She was 14. guess what im saying(prob very badly) you have to think of your future and that of your OH. Please please if you make that decision do not be hard onself. x X


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## Goldenstar (19 January 2014)

sophspot said:



			I'm genuinely surprised by the answers in this thread.I would only pts with regards to the horse's quality of life, not because I wanted to move out from home. Please think of your long term life changes next time you purchase an animal. I worked 2 jobs to pay for my horse at 17 so i could pay for my horse & yes it was tough put it taught me about
		
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This is a personal desision it's not a right or wrong situation .
OP has had this horse for six years not six months and few of us have a crystal ball .the economic situation is harsh and the cost of keeping the horse is the difference between paying rent or not being able to .
She's not casting off the horse for someone esle to deal with she's taking responibilty herself if the horse was six everyone would be telling her to sell the mare but she can't sell the mare in this situation  .


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## Goldenstar (19 January 2014)

babymare said:



			parisexx. I fully understand how you are feeling. Baby had been abused before i got her resulting in major stress issues which in time i managed but were always there.Add to mix her failng sight, a move for me 45 miles from yard to be with OH,a monthly bill of £300 + a month, petrol &time, elderly mother with dimentia i also had to sit down and make decisions. I could have tried to move baby but i knew, as did people who knew baby, mentally she would not have coped. someone offered to take her but I couldnt pass her off like that given her problems so I planned the day and said sweetdreams to her. i had owned her for 7 years she was my friend,my rock through my own abusive relationship. Oh i did fill guilt at beginning but now i feel relieved. My life is calmer. im no longer living on credit card.My life with my Lovely kind OH is the  happiest ive been for many years. But not a day goes by that i dont miss her and some days i still cry. She was 14. guess what im saying(prob very badly) you have to think of your future and that of your OH. Please please if you make that decision do not be hard onself. x X
		
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Brave post babymare .


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## Meowy Catkin (19 January 2014)

To quote the BHS's recent article...

_'Lets lose the view that good welfare always means keeping animals alive. We can't afford to think like this any longer. Finding a horse a new purpose or new home so we can avoid putting them down really is not always the best solution. Humane euthanasia is far from the worst fate that can befall a horse.'_


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## AdorableAlice (19 January 2014)

sophspot said:



			I'm genuinely surprised by the answers in this thread.I would only pts with regards to the horse's quality of life, not because I wanted to move out from home. Please think of your long term life changes next time you purchase an animal. I worked 2 jobs to pay for my horse at 17 so i could pay for my horse & yes it was tough put it taught me about
		
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Arthritic and unsound.  OP could bute it up and loan/sell for a fiver to an unknown future. Or lets throw it into a wet field and 'retire' it.  Or the OP could be a responsible owner and ensure a pain free peaceful end.

Some of the comments on the thread are sensible and offered by long term experienced horse owners.  Other comments are fanciful, novice, irresponsible and down right ridiculous.


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## LaMooch (19 January 2014)

Not read all the posts but I think this post sums up the original Posters dilemma perfectly and wish more owners would make this decision when in the same position. I wish you best whatever your decision



Faracat said:



			To quote the BHS's recent article...

_'Lets lose the view that good welfare always means keeping animals alive. We can't afford to think like this any longer. Finding a horse a new purpose or new home so we can avoid putting them down really is not always the best solution. Humane euthanasia is far from the worst fate that can befall a horse.'_

Click to expand...


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## NellRosk (19 January 2014)

I think the bravest and most kindly thing you can do is have her PTS. If I were to sell/ give away a horse like yours it would be because I'm too cowardly and reliant on my own feelings of guilt than to do the right thing by the horse. Better now when she's in relative good health than in a few years when she's suffering more from her arthritis, needing pain meds and being demented by the tormenting feeling of itchiness in summer with her SI. At 25 you must be feeling so cramped and restricted at home so get out there and start living your life together with your OH and don't listen to anyone else's narrow mindedness and clouded views.  x


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## Fairynuff (19 January 2014)

crazyhorse37 said:



			A horse is for life, not just for when it suits you.  This is something that you need to think about before you buy a horse, no matter whether you were misled.  At some point she still would have got to this age.  Putting her down for your own benefit is totally irresponsible.  When family become a burden we don't give them a meal and 'put them down'.  Sorry, I think that you have to find a solution other than the easy way out above.  Charities are over-run because of people not thinking about the consequences of buying a horse.
		
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What utter nonsense


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## sophspot (19 January 2014)

Surely the op post is about she can afford to keep her horse but she wants to put the money towards getting a new place with her partner. Plus she's not enjoying being with the horse anymore. To me this is a right & wrong answer ? Yes life throws you tough thing's sickness/divorce/deaths/redundant... Etc... OP I would have my vet out for their opinion and if the horse was happy and able to enjoy life without being in pain everyday I wouldn't pts. End of the day its your horse to with what you wish.


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## Regandal (19 January 2014)

I think you are being responsible.  As Goldenstar says, none of us have a crystal ball, and times are hard.  The days of a job for life are long gone, and we all do what we have to do.  She knows you, it would kinder to let her go whilst in your care.  Good luck.


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## babymare (19 January 2014)

Brave? No just honest and realistic. Yes I could have passed her on as said someone wanted her (personally i didnt trust why she offered )but I owed it to baby to be responsible for her. by far worse could have happened to her. x


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## Parisexx (19 January 2014)

I was really worried about posting my dilemma on this for fear of being shot down (scuse the pun!) But u have been really lovely and seen things from mine and the mares point.of view  xx


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## Goldenstar (19 January 2014)

sophspot said:



			Surely the op post is about she can afford to keep her horse but she wants to put the money towards getting a new place with her partner. Plus she's not enjoying being with the horse anymore. To me this is a right & wrong answer ? Yes life throws you tough thing's sickness/divorce/deaths/redundant... Etc... OP I would have my vet out for their opinion and if the horse was happy and able to enjoy life without being in pain everyday I wouldn't pts. End of the day its your horse to with what you wish.
		
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In a nutshell you think its ok for at 25 for OP to have her parents supporting her so she can own a horse and many of us don't .
A horse with an arthritic neck is likely to have a degree of pain .
A vet is no help in making what is an economic decision .


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## Cortez (19 January 2014)

Fairynuff said:



			What utter nonsense 

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Yes, I agree. Who says a horse is for life? Horses are bought and sold (and PTS) every day. 

Charities are NOT over run because people don't consider the consequences; they are over run because not enough people are prepared to do the decent thing and TAKE RESPONSIBILITY.


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## Fairynuff (19 January 2014)

oldjumper said:



			Thats what I'd do as well and stay with her to the end. If more people made such a brave decision, we would have fewer neglected old horses.
		
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Goldenstar said:



			In a nutshell you think its ok for at 25 for OP to have her parents supporting her so she can own a horse and many of us don't .
A horse with an arthritic neck is likely to have a degree of pain .
A vet is no help in making what is an economic decision .
		
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someone is talking sense


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## Fairynuff (19 January 2014)

Cortez said:



			Yes, I agree. Who says a horse is for life? Horses are bought and sold (and PTS) every day. 

Charities are NOT over run because people don't consider the consequences; they are over run because not enough people are prepared to do the decent thing and TAKE RESPONSIBILITY.[/QUOTE

This^^^^^^^ 

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## Mince Pie (19 January 2014)

Isn't it funny that recently there have been a lot of comments about people in their 20's should be moving out of home, now we have a 25 year old trying to do just that and she is being shot down! We don't know her home situation, it could be that relations between her and her mum are strained, I also wouldn't expect a non horsey OH to put his plans on hold for an elderly, unrideable horse. The op has given this horse 2 years of quiet retirement, the conditions are only going to deteriorate and if the op is struggling now what will happen when the horse needs daily bute etc? 
Op I would pts and enjoy your life with your oh


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## sophspot (19 January 2014)

Goldenstar....lol no that's not what I wrote, its very difficult because no one knows the full financial situation of the op (and quite rightly so !) Again I will say it's not about the horse is in pain and I feel she is suffering should I put to sleep. Which yes I feel she should if she is. Its I want to move out & don't enjoy my horse anymore. Which are two very different scenario's. That's the great thing of forums you get very different answers and people gravitate to what they feel helps them. Yes I know its crap being skint and horse's make us even poorer, I rented my flat on minium wage and I struggled but I wouldn't swap those years with my first horse when he retired, I would always do what's best for my horse... Btw the government are doing some great mortgage offers at the moment on new properties worth chatting to them fir advice too.


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## LD&S (19 January 2014)

Love said:



			OP you have 2 options. 

1.) try and find someone else to take this mare on, knowing that once you do there is nothing to stop her ending up having an uncertain future, ending up who knows where and in who knows what state. Yes you might luckily find someone genuine to take her but you don't know that until it's too late. I know I wouldn't take the risk with such an old, unrideable horse. 

2.) have her pts knowing she went without realising a thing and that you have secured her future and know she will never ever end up in the wrong hands. 

I know which I'd pick, but essentially those are your options. In a nutshell.
		
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Option 2 for me.


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## hnmisty (19 January 2014)

sophspot said:



			Btw the government are doing some great mortgage offers at the moment on new properties worth chatting to them fir advice too.
		
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Seriously? OP should take out a 95% mortgage with her partner so she can keep an elderly pony alive for a bit longer?

I am sentimental, sometimes overly so. But those going on about keeping the pony going are talking utter tosh IMHO. Animals don't understand death. This pony won't understand that she will be PTS on X date. She won't know what is going to happen even if the marksman waves his gun in her face. For the last time, A DECENT AND DIGNIFIED DEATH IS NOT THE WORST THING THAT CAN HAPPEN TO AN ANIMAL. 

No one would bat an eyelid if OP had come on here saying she no longer enjoyed her horse and wanted to be able to save for a deposit so she was planning on selling it. She can't do that, as she has an elderly and unusable pony, and we've all heard enough horror stories about companion pony loans going wrong (so very sorry for those who have had this happen to them). No one would be telling her to keep a young and healthy 7 year old as a field ornament because she's fallen out of love with horses, yet PTS is the only way to ensure your horse's welfare. 

I had my old pony for almost 12 year until she was 35. For 6 of those years (the middle 6) I couldn't ride her at all. I wouldn't have parted with her for the world, and it broke my heart when she died, but she was a tie. As much as I wanted a horse I could ride, I would never have got one whilst I still had Misty.


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## doriangrey (19 January 2014)

I am going to get in trouble for this .. but what is it about horses that pts is so much more acceptable?  Is it the money aspect?  Would the same debate be happening if the OP was talking about a dog or a cat (for instance) that they had for 7 or so years?


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## Parisexx (19 January 2014)

The majority understand were I am coming from thank u xx


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## Parisexx (19 January 2014)

A dog or a cat does not hold the same financial and time burden as a horse? X


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## touchstone (19 January 2014)

It isn't just about costs though is it? 

 The op has said that she has fallen out of love with horses, why should she tie down the next goodness knows how many years working hard and spending all money on something she doesn't even enjoy any more?   If the horse was young and healthy it would be a different scenario, but there is nothing wrong with pts an ederly arthritic horse because you want/need your life to move on.

Pts is alleviating any suffering or prospect of suffering.


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## Parisexx (19 January 2014)

Touchstone exactly  x


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## Angus' yard (19 January 2014)

Do you have support from the people on your yard? Or horsey friends who can support you with this decision?


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## doriangrey (19 January 2014)

touchstone said:



			It isn't just about costs though is it? 

 The op has said that she has fallen out of love with horses, why should she tie down the next goodness knows how many years working hard and spending all money on something she doesn't even enjoy any more?   If the horse was young and healthy it would be a different scenario, but there is nothing wrong with pts an ederly arthritic horse because you want/need your life to move on.

Pts is alleviating any suffering or prospect of suffering.
		
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No, I totally agree with you.  What I am saying is would she get the same response if she said that she'd fallen out of love with her dog/cat.  With horses is it purely a financial aspect that makes it easier to say pts?  Maybe it's a question for another thread and I do hope that it can be resolved for all concerned.


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## zigzag (19 January 2014)

I would PTS. You can't sell her or loan her she has arthritis, so is going to be in pain, and she isn't going to get better.  I had an old Welsh D who was arthritic, He was buted up, but was struggling, I kept saying I must ring the vet, but I didn't, went down the field to find him down, he had been struggling all night to get up from the marks, I felt so guilty, never again, will PTS a horse sooner rather than later.

Good luck and don't feel guilty if you decide to PTS


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## crazyhorse37 (19 January 2014)

Parisexx said:



			No i cannot afford to buy a one bed room flat let alone a house with land! How ridiculous,  me and my partner work full time Jobs but the 200 pound that I spend on our elderly unridden horse needs to go towards a flat (renting!) The place in Devon for retirement livery is still 200 a month
		
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I think there is one much cheaper than that.  I'll find out for you and let you know if you want, but getting the impression that it's not what you want


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## touchstone (19 January 2014)

doriangrey said:



			No, I totally agree with you.  What I am saying is would she get the same response if she said that she'd fallen out of love with her dog/cat.  With horses is it purely a financial aspect that makes it easier to say pts?  Maybe it's a question for another thread and I do hope that it can be resolved for all concerned.
		
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Sorry doriangrey, I was replying to a previous poster who'd suggested mortgages etc, I should have quoted in my post. 
A dog or a cat is easier to care for, and not such a drain on finances; they also tend to be in the house as part of the family, and although my horses are always part of the family, there are those who view them differently, they are a much larger commitment and don't always fit in with life changes like cats/dogs can.   I don't believe it is 'just' finances that make pts a more viable option for horses, there are more horses than good homes at the moment and having witnessed some poor creatures at sales in my time I think pts can be a kindness for many.


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## khalswitz (19 January 2014)

I feel like a horrible witch reading this lot, and can imagine I'll get flamed for my view. For me, horses are a *hobby*, one which I take seriously and invest a lot of money and time into, and I give my horses the best care I can, but ultimately I spend that money to get enjoyment out of them. 

It does actually offend me a bit when people preach about owing a horse a retirement on here. If I had my own land, and could just turn out in the field with a share of the hay/odd trim/odd vacc etc then of course I would retire a horse and give it as long and happy a life as possible. But paying for livery (and already having to live with my parents in order to afford horses at all) puts a whole new slant on things. If my horse isn't able to let me enjoy my hobby, then why am I paying for it? Yes, it's selfish, but if I was really selfless I wouldn't ride at all, I would just let my horse run free and happy...

People are quick to say sell if a horse is too much for someone, or they want to compete at a higher level than the horse can, or the horse is getting older and is now a hack etc&#8230; and yet putting a horse to sleep because they are lame/old and retired is a horrible thing to do? At least they have had a long life, and presumably at least the time with you has been happy. 

There are so many broken and useless horses in this country that should have been put to sleep rather than passed around/ended up in charities. I worked at the SSPCA previously, and the number of phone calls every day asking if we would take their old, retired, unrideable horses was ridiculous. The same with cats and dogs. If an animal is old, and you can no longer look after it, whether by circumstance or inclination, PTS is by far not the worst thing to do. At least you have given the horse a good life whilst it has been with you.

If I waited until I knew I could support a horse for the rest of it's life with no uncertainties, I would never have owned a horse yet. And yet I would say my horses have had a good life, whether they have been sold on to be useful or PTS. My last horse broke my heart when he was PTS - he was sore, and still field lame after four months, and whilst I was very close to giving up riding to just keep him going, it wasn't fair on either of us - our relationship was deteriorating as I resented the fact that he couldn't get better, and his behaviour was worse as he was in pain. I still feel guilty over him being PTS, and tbh I still cry even thinking about him, over a year later, but I am happier now I'm riding again. With Geoff, if he went unrideably lame, I would PTS him too after a summer in the field - much as I love him, I'm not spending all the money I do just to look at him in a field, I do want to compete, and without my own land to turn him out on, I would have to give up riding to keep him.


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## hnmisty (19 January 2014)

crazyhorse37 said:



			I think there is one much cheaper than that.  I'll find out for you and let you know if you want, but getting the impression that it's not what you want
		
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I don't think bunging your old horse off on someone where it's not going to get the same love aponntion as it would from a private owner and to never be visited is exactly a nice thing to do. The warn fuzzy feeling from doing so is a load of hypocritical tripe in my opinion.

this pony is only going to get worse, and tbh I don't trust many people to make the right decision when it's needed, far too many skinny and knackered horses are kept going simply because their hearts are still beating.


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## crazyhorse37 (19 January 2014)

doriangrey said:



			I am going to get in trouble for this .. but what is it about horses that pts is so much more acceptable?  Is it the money aspect?  Would the same debate be happening if the OP was talking about a dog or a cat (for instance) that they had for 7 or so years?
		
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thank you, I totally agree.  I was 15 when I got my mare and personally would turn her loose on the moors rather than pts.  But that's just it, this is my opinion.  It's not going to be my opinion or the opinion of anyone else on here that matters.  It is how YOU will feel when you have your mare pts.  If you are already feeling guilty and needing reassurance from others, that will not help when you have done the deed.  You need to be sure in your mind of what you are doing.  Those offering you support on here will not be the ones feeling the guilt after if you are not convinced that it is the right thing to do.  You alone have to live with the decision.  Make sure it is the right one for you in your heart before you do it.  I know many people who thought they were taking the easy option.  I get the impression you do still care a lot for this mare, spare some time to think how you will honestly feel afterwards beforehand.  'This is one doodle that can't be undid.'


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## zigzag (19 January 2014)

crazyhorse37 said:



			thank you, I totally agree.  I was 15 when I got my mare and *personally would turn her loose on the moors rather than pts*.  But that's just it, this is my opinion.  It's not going to be my opinion or the opinion of anyone else on here that matters.  It is how YOU will feel when you have your mare pts.  If you are already feeling guilty and needing reassurance from others, that will not help when you have done the deed.  You need to be sure in your mind of what you are doing.  Those offering you support on here will not be the ones feeling the guilt after if you are not convinced that it is the right thing to do.  You alone have to live with the decision.  Make sure it is the right one for you in your heart before you do it.  I know many people who thought they were taking the easy option.  I get the impression you do still care a lot for this mare, spare some time to think how you will honestly feel afterwards beforehand.  'This is one doodle that can't be undid.'
		
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And she is really going to survive happily on the moors...


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## crazyhorse37 (19 January 2014)

hnmisty said:



			I don't think bunging your old horse off on someone where it's not going to get the same love aponntion as it would from a private owner and to never be visited is exactly a nice thing to do. The warn fuzzy feeling from doing so is a load of hypocritical tripe in my opinion.

this pony is only going to get worse, and tbh I don't trust many people to make the right decision when it's needed, far too many skinny and knackered horses are kept going simply because their hearts are still beating.
		
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Personally I wouldn't send my horse off to be looked after by someone else, but for some it is a good option.  The place in question is amazing.  The woman checks all the horses 3 times a day.  They are all kept in small herds and out all year round.  They are well cared for and the horses are all happy being horses with horses.  She is very pragmatic about when the time to pts has come and will do this as they need it.  She doesn't keep them going unnecessarily.  I just thought it may be a good option as if she was sure about pts being the right option she wouldn't have asked about it on here.


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## ester (19 January 2014)

sophspot said:



			Surely the op post is about she can afford to keep her horse but she wants to put the money towards getting a new place with her partner. Plus she's not enjoying being with the horse anymore. To me this is a right & wrong answer ? Yes life throws you tough thing's sickness/divorce/deaths/redundant... Etc... OP I would have my vet out for their opinion and if the horse was happy and able to enjoy life without being in pain everyday I wouldn't pts. End of the day its your horse to with what you wish.
		
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But OP can only afford to keep the horse because she is subsidised by her parents by living with them, not while she is living an independent life.


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## hnmisty (19 January 2014)

zigzag said:



			And she is really going to survive happily on the moors...
		
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I'm glad it's not just me who read that and thought "wtf?!".

Excellent example of responsible ownership. I won't make the decent decision to allow my horse a pain free end to its life in return for the years of friendship he has given me, I'll just throw them out into the wild. It's OK, there aren't any wolves in the UK so he'll be absokutely fine as he dies a slow and painful death.


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## ester (19 January 2014)

I threaten to leave Frank with the Quantock ponies if he is naughty.....


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## Bestdogdash (19 January 2014)

crazyhorse37 said:



			thank you, I totally agree.  I was 15 when I got my mare and personally would turn her loose on the moors rather than pts.  But that's just it, this is my opinion.  It's not going to be my opinion or the opinion of anyone else on here that matters.  It is how YOU will feel when you have your mare pts.  If you are already feeling guilty and needing reassurance from others, that will not help when you have done the deed.  You need to be sure in your mind of what you are doing.  Those offering you support on here will not be the ones feeling the guilt after if you are not convinced that it is the right thing to do.  You alone have to live with the decision.  Make sure it is the right one for you in your heart before you do it.  I know many people who thought they were taking the easy option.  I get the impression you do still care a lot for this mare, spare some time to think how you will honestly feel afterwards beforehand.  'This is one doodle that can't be undid.'
		
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You 'would turn you elderly horse out on a moor' rather than shoot it? You are not only  stupid but also cruel.


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## touchstone (19 January 2014)

hnmisty said:



			I'm glad it's not just me who read that and thought "wtf?!".

Excellent example of responsible ownership. I won't make the decent decision to allow my horse a pain free end to its life in return for the years of friendship he has given me, I'll just throw them out into the wild. It's OK, there aren't any wolves in the UK so he'll be absokutely fine as he dies a slow and painful death.
		
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Exactly, an example of life at all costs I'm afraid, perhaps a read of this might help to enlighten those who think it is a sensible solution. http://www.worldhorsewelfare.org/Article/Mare-found-with-dead-foal-amongst-100-horses


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## be positive (19 January 2014)

crazyhorse37 said:



			thank you, I totally agree.  I was 15 when I got my mare and personally would turn her loose on the moors rather than pts.  '
		
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In what way could that be considered a responsible way to deal with a horse that suffers from sweet itch and arthritis, throwing it out to survive, if it could, until it finally dies a slow lingering death, a very helpful suggestion for the OP to consider so she does not feel guilty.

We are not talking about a pet dog or cat but an old horse with issues that require managing, will be causing some degree of discomfort if not yet pain, having her pts is not the worst thing that can happen.


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## MerrySherryRider (19 January 2014)

Oh great, just seen this. another disposable horse thread.
Yes OP. Shoot the mare and go on holiday/rent a flat/move abroad/ or anything else that makes being responsible for your horse inconvenient.

A horse is just for Christmas, not for life.


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## Goldenstar (19 January 2014)

crazyhorse37 said:



			thank you, I totally agree.  I was 15 when I got my mare and personally would turn her loose on the moors rather than pts.  But that's just it, this is my opinion.  It's not going to be my opinion or the opinion of anyone else on here that matters.  It is how YOU will feel when you have your mare pts.  If you are already feeling guilty and needing reassurance from others, that will not help when you have done the deed.  You need to be sure in your mind of what you are doing.  Those offering you support on here will not be the ones feeling the guilt after if you are not convinced that it is the right thing to do.  You alone have to live with the decision.  Make sure it is the right one for you in your heart before you do it.  I know many people who thought they were taking the easy option.  I get the impression you do still care a lot for this mare, spare some time to think how you will honestly feel afterwards beforehand.  'This is one doodle that can't be undid.'
		
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And on the moor the mare might be lucky she might have a heart attack but more likely malnutrion or lameness would cause her go down she would struggle to stand and struggle and struggle slowly her lungs would congest her breathing would become more and more laboured until finally her heart would stop beating under the strain .
Yes you might feel better turning her lose on the moor I doult very much the horse would .
I saw many old turned out retired horses when I was a welfare officer that why I can lead my
Horses round the corner and look into their  eyes as they are shot I am sad but guilt no I feel no guilt when I put an old horse to sleep .
I can give them a dignified end not for them the pain and lack of mobility of extreme old age .

That anyone could think that turning a horse lose on a moor might an acceptable thing to do completely freaks me out .


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## Bestdogdash (19 January 2014)

MerrySherryRider said:



			Oh great, just seen this. another disposable horse thread.
Yes OP. Shoot the mare and go on holiday/rent a flat/move abroad/ or anything else that makes being responsible for your horse inconvenient.

A horse is just for Christmas, not for life.
		
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That is a really uncalled for response  - the mare is old and arthritic - frankly the responsible thing is to shoot it.  A horse is not a pet, it is an animal that should have a purpose. Your response is 'yet another' unrealistic bleeding heart post that shows one of the reasons we have a crisis in uncared for horses in the UK. Get real.


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## crazyhorse37 (19 January 2014)

I'm fortunate enough that I will hopefully never be in a position to have to wonder about the costs involved with looking after my horse.  Of course that is something I took into consideration before I got a horse, but circumstances change.  Maybe I was being a little blasé when I said I would turn her out on the moors.  I hope I would never be in such a situation, but I do live near moors and for those of you who don't realise many people graze there horses on the moors.  You are right, in my situation I guess I wouldn't send her out there as I medicate her daily.  But horses are horses, they are designed to live in the wild.  Of course if a horse was that unwell I would support pts.  I just think we are in a bit of a throw-away state where we take on a responsibility and then ditch it when it suits.  When children become too much of a burden do you pts?! For me my animals are part of my family and if we take them into our lives I believe that we owe them a duty of care.  I have said my opinion and as I mentioned in an earlier post  it really isn't our opinions that count at the end of the day for this mare, but her owners.


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## sophspot (19 January 2014)

Op you've obviously been struggling with this since your posts in 2011. Do you have any friends that can give you support & advice in what to do for the best for your horse can you chat to your yard manager (if you have one) in confidence.


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## touchstone (19 January 2014)

MerrySherryRider said:



			Oh great, just seen this. another disposable horse thread.
Yes OP. Shoot the mare and go on holiday/rent a flat/move abroad/ or anything else that makes being responsible for your horse inconvenient.

A horse is just for Christmas, not for life.
		
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The horse is old and arthritic, what would you suggest she does instead?  Is keeping a horse that has already been retired for two years for health reasons, to be rehomed or kept grudgingly really the best thing for it?   

There are plenty of people who don't have the option of continuing to care for their horses, I would imagine being judged for their imo sensible options will be hurtful and offensive.


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## windand rain (19 January 2014)

cat, dog, elephant, horse, donkey, rat all the same if you cant give them a superb quality of life then take responsibility for them at the end. I cant really credit anyone who would turn loose a horse anywhere to die a slow and lingering death from starvation but perhaps CH thinks its a reasonable solution as she wouldnt have to watch. Age and health dont really matter if you cant afford to live your life and for what ever reason cant keep paying the bills use the last of your money to make sure your animals, pet or not are safely dispatched and are not sent to an uncertain future. Cat and dog homes are full to the brim too if people took responsibility for those there would be less of the have a puppy and dump to buy another one. I could see the point some are making if the OP had said she was going to PTS a healthy horse to buy a younger model of the same type but not when the animal is old and sick and she needs to move her life forward. I despair of some people and their bunny hugging life at all costs views as very often those are the ones inflicting the most horrendous cruelty on animals. I am as soft as butter would take on the world of animals in a heart beat if I had the money to PTS when she was ready but I don't I will have my useless un homeable ones PTS if I cant afford to keep them as I can take responsibility for mine not the whole world.
Do what makes you happy op the horse wont know the difference and if you were made to keep her going the only result will be resentment and ultimately neglect even if fed and and her needs met  she will miss out on love attention and true care
Oh and as to the jibe about horses being disposable that is absolute nonsense horses have always changed homes good care has seen them live longer, and it is a poor show as no one would have a horse if no one sold one
Rescues are full of ill bred cruelly treated animals there is no room for them to be retirement homes for those that cant look after them anymore


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## MerrySherryRider (19 January 2014)

touchstone said:



			The horse is old and arthritic, what would you suggest she does instead?  Is keeping a horse that has already been retired for two years for health reasons, to be rehomed or kept grudgingly really the best thing for it?   

There are plenty of people who don't have the option of continuing to care for their horses, I would imagine being judged for their imo sensible options will be hurtful and offensive.
		
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Old and arthritic ? Hang on, its only 20 and not needing any medication. No excuses.
This selfish attitude to not taking responsibility makes me blooming angry.


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## hnmisty (19 January 2014)

Crazy horse obviously expects all her horses to pop their clogs in their sleep. If she actually has kept any to the end of their days then she should know that's pretty damn unlikely, and people have to make this decision because their animals are I'll and suffering.

We can only hope that she comes across a vet who will see her prosecuted for transporting an ill and suffering horse without veterinary supervision, abandonment and neglect.

I've come across some fairly ignorant people during my life,but this is up there at the top of the list of idiotic things I've read. 

Frankly, I am scared that she actually has animals in her care, and I am worried for their welfare given the opinions she has stated in this thread.


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## LaMooch (19 January 2014)

So lets turn an elderly horse who is aging and is going to need pain relief because this on to the moor to suffer, possibly mate with a wild stallion and add to the problem of abandoned  and 'useless' horses, die a painful death. Actually why don't we all do that instead of giving the animal who has given so much to us a dignified end.


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## Jesstickle (19 January 2014)

Faracat said:



			To quote the BHS's recent article...

_'Lets lose the view that good welfare always means keeping animals alive. We can't afford to think like this any longer. Finding a horse a new purpose or new home so we can avoid putting them down really is not always the best solution. Humane euthanasia is far from the worst fate that can befall a horse.'_

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WHW say the same thing

''For some owners, rehoming isnt a responsible or realistic option for their horse. In these cases, having the horse put down may be the kindest thing to do if you can no longer meet his needs yourself. Many people may feel guilty even considering this option. However it is one of the most responsible decisions an owner can make when they cannot safeguard their animals future welfare by any other means and it is certainly not the worst possible outcome for the horse. It is always better to have a horse put down in familiar soundings rather than to rehome unwisely.''

So both these charities, according to some posters at least, are wrong?


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## MurphysMinder (19 January 2014)

MerrySherryRider said:



			Old and arthritic ? Hang on, its only 20 and not needing any medication. No excuses.
This selfish attitude to not taking responsibility makes me blooming angry.
		
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The OP says 20+ which I read as more than only 20, and has arthritis. I had a WHW pony with arthritis, when she began to struggle she was pts, after discussion with and full support from the WHW.  The OP is taking responsibity for this mare if she decides to pts,  she would not be doing so if she passed her on.
I write this as someone who has 4 equines over the age of 20,  I have my own land so am lucky.  However if circumstances change they would be pts, not rehomed .


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## touchstone (19 January 2014)

crazyhorse37 said:



			I'm fortunate enough that I will hopefully never be in a position to have to wonder about the costs involved with looking after my horse.  Of course that is something I took into consideration before I got a horse, but circumstances change.  Maybe I was being a little blasé when I said I would turn her out on the moors.  I hope I would never be in such a situation, but I do live near moors and for those of you who don't realise many people graze there horses on the moors.  You are right, in my situation I guess I wouldn't send her out there as I medicate her daily.  But horses are horses, they are designed to live in the wild.  Of course if a horse was that unwell I would support pts.  I just think we are in a bit of a throw-away state where we take on a responsibility and then ditch it when it suits.  When children become too much of a burden do you pts?! For me my animals are part of my family and if we take them into our lives I believe that we owe them a duty of care.  I have said my opinion and as I mentioned in an earlier post  it really isn't our opinions that count at the end of the day for this mare, but her owners.
		
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And that 'duty of care' for a reponsible owner involves euthanasia when in the horse's best interests, whether for health, financial or other reasons.


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## Goldenstar (19 January 2014)

MerrySherryRider said:



			Old and arthritic ? Hang on, its only 20 and not needing any medication. No excuses.
This selfish attitude to not taking responsibility makes me blooming angry.
		
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OP is taking responsibly for her horse .
This whole thread is about her taking responibilty she's 25 living at home with her OH at her parents She wishes to move with her life and money is very tight and the horse is old and suffering from two conditions one is progressive and likely to make grazing difficult and the other makes the horse unsuitable for mass turnout retirement livery what is OP to do she can't sell the horse, won't quite rightly pass it on she is being responsible .


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## Arzada (19 January 2014)

crazyhorse37 said:



			I think there is one much cheaper than that.  I'll find out for you and let you know if you want, but getting the impression that it's not what you want
		
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You're right, there are cheaper retirement places in Devon. I've been thinking ahead to retiring Arzada and have looked at yards. The recent weeks of rain and days of gales have really focused my mind. I thought retirement livery was a good plan and I've looked at 2 yards but I've had a rethink over the last month of appalling wet and windy weather (and wet muddy slippery fields). There is no way that I would have my horse at a yard that does not offer or have the facilities to bring horses in from day after day of heavy rain and high winds. Anyone visiting retirement livery yards that look lovely in decent weather must really try to imagine them in the worst of winter weather and then ask if they really want to retire their horse there. PTS for an elderly arthritic mare is the kinder option. And for the owner too - I wouldn't be able to rest by day or sleep by night if my beloved horse was retired to a field in the kind of weather we've had recently.


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## dogatemysalad (19 January 2014)

OP's opening post mentions a moral dilemma. The moral dilemma is, is it justifiable for a horse not requiring medication to be PTS because the owner wants to spend her money on something else instead. 

This is quite different to putting a sick/in pain animal down,
The owner is not facing a financial or health crisis in her own life. She simply doesn't want 'the lovely mare'.


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## Jesstickle (19 January 2014)

dogatemysalad said:



			OP's opening post mentions a moral dilemma. The moral dilemma is, is it justifiable for a horse not requiring medication to be PTS because the owner wants to spend her money on something else instead. 

This is quite different to putting a sick/in pain animal down,
The owner is not facing a financial or health crisis in her own life. She simply doesn't want 'the lovely mare'.
		
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I would say that it is a financial crisis to be living off your parents mid twenties due to a horse. But that's because I care more about my Mother than I do a horse. Call me weird and all that...


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## Echo Bravo (19 January 2014)

Sweet itch doesn't get better it get worse, I had my old mare put down over a year ago due to her sweet itch, she was in constant pain with it and rubbed herself raw umpteen times over the years and not many people who know about sweet itch would want to take a horse that has it on, I certainly wouldn't having dealt with it for over 11 years.


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## noodle_ (19 January 2014)

Jesstickle said:



			I would say that it is a financial crisis to be living off your parents mid twenties due to a horse. But that's because I care more about my Mother than I do a horse. Call me weird and all that...
		
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i agree


i love my horse - but having a break (her living away) has made me realise how much she took over every aspect of my life...i just didnt have a life outside of her.... did my nut in... to take over UTTERLY financial to to restrict moving out etc - im sorry but horse comes 2nd.... they are not a pet they are a working animal


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## doriangrey (19 January 2014)

touchstone said:



			Sorry doriangrey, I was replying to a previous poster who'd suggested mortgages etc, I should have quoted in my post. 
A dog or a cat is easier to care for, and not such a drain on finances; they also tend to be in the house as part of the family, and although my horses are always part of the family, there are those who view them differently, they are a much larger commitment and don't always fit in with life changes like cats/dogs can.   I don't believe it is 'just' finances that make pts a more viable option for horses, there are more horses than good homes at the moment and having witnessed some poor creatures at sales in my time I think pts can be a kindness for many.
		
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I think I agree, horses are much more a working animal especially if they are competing or hunting or working regularly, none of which mine are as one is retired and one is too young.  I have my own land and they still cost me enough at the moment even though I can afford it easily.  It's hard to explain though but I'll try .... even though my cat can come in and warm itself by the fire and jump on my lap I get just as much a high as when my pony wants attention with a scratch or a nuzzle - when they push their head into you seeking that attention it's magical and just because the cat can fit in the kitchen I don't feel a difference in the affection.  I think it's amazing what they (horses) give us, especially as they are ridden, maybe because they are ridden and still give us that extra attention.  That's why I feel - as they give us so much - we should at least give them what they deserve in return.  Having said that, I have the land and resources to do this and pts at home for some horses will be the kindest and most logical way to go.


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## Arzada (19 January 2014)

crazyhorse37 said:



			Personally I wouldn't send my horse off to be looked after by someone else, but for some it is a good option.  The place in question is amazing.  The woman checks all the horses 3 times a day.  They are all kept in small herds and out all year round.
		
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Out all the time in the last month must have pretty grim. Did you go there to see how the horses were enjoying the elements?


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## Flame_ (19 January 2014)

dogatemysalad said:



			OP's opening post mentions a moral dilemma. The moral dilemma is, is it justifiable for a horse not requiring medication to be PTS because the owner wants to spend her money on something else instead. 

This is quite different to putting a sick/in pain animal down,
The owner is not facing a financial or health crisis in her own life. She simply doesn't want 'the lovely mare'.
		
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My morals say its OK to pts a horse you don't want but shouldn't or couldn't sell. When society says we can't be breeding animals to serve a purpose and trading them for values in the first place I might be converted to that if I'm still alive to see it, but as long as the system is that we breed and buy horses because they're worth a lot to us use-wise, there has to be a plan in place for what happens when they aren't worth anything to us. The two best options here are enjoying them as a (very) expensive pet or pts, Taking away and disapproving of the pts option leaves a lot of useless horses up **** creek when nobody wants them as expensive pets. Its just realistic.

OP, keep your horse, stay at home, enjoy her company and move out later, or put her down and move out now. They're both fine by my wobbly little principle line, just don't give her away to some liar or numpty.


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## dogatemysalad (19 January 2014)

If I only had the experience of HHO forum members, I'd think it was perfectly acceptable to have any horse PTS because the owner didn't want it.
Happily, in over 50 years, I have been fortunate to have known both professional and private owners who did not think this way, with the exception of just 2 people. 
 Sometimes RL, is a breath of fresh air.


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## Little Alfie (19 January 2014)

Flame_ said:



			OP, keep your horse, stay at home, enjoy her company and move out later, or put her down and move out now. They're both fine by my wobbly little principle line, just don't give her away to some liar or numpty. 

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There ya go someone who tells it straight


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## Jesstickle (19 January 2014)

dogatemysalad said:



			If I only had the experience of HHO forum members, I'd think it was perfectly acceptable to have any horse PTS because the owner didn't want it.
Happily, in over 50 years, I have been fortunate to have known both professional and private owners who did not think this way, with the exception of just 2 people. 
 Sometimes RL, is a breath of fresh air.
		
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More likely people in RL wouldn't tell you what they actually thought/did in fear of being on the sharp end of your tongue and having you sit in judgement of them...


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## dogatemysalad (19 January 2014)

Jesstickle said:



			More likely people in RL wouldn't tell you what they actually thought/did in fear of being on the sharp end of your tongue and having you sit in judgement of them...
		
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No sharp tongue, Jesstickle and no judgement from me for friends in difficult circumstances. I do chose my friends carefully though.


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## Fools Motto (19 January 2014)

Whatever the OP does, if under the guidance of us, here on this thread, or her vet, or even her family members, it is the right thing. I don't think any of us can judge her situation for her. We should be here to offer her support for her decision, and not criticise IF WE think it is wrong.  I wish the OP luck in finding the answer, and I wish the old mare well on her travels, whatever journey that may be.


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## Goldenstar (19 January 2014)

It is surely acceptable to PTS a lame old horse with a condition that makes summer turnout difficult when money is very tight and you are struggling .


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## Jesstickle (19 January 2014)

dogatemysalad said:



			No sharp tongue, Jesstickle and no judgement from me for friends in difficult circumstances. I do chose my friends carefully though.
		
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Good stuff. 

I do find people are more willing to voice their actual opinions/ideas on the forum. In life, if you ask people I find they are more likely to try and tell you what you want to hear, or not commit to any answer either way, or say what makes them seem like the better person,so you do get different ideas in RL and here. 

I suspect the online world is actually a better representation of what people really think. And I certainly don't have the experience in RL that you do on this matter. I chose my friends very carefully too


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## Pearlsasinger (19 January 2014)

crazyhorse37 said:



			Charities are over-run because of people not thinking about the consequences of buying a horse.
		
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Actually charities are over-run because people won't be responsible and pts horses that no-one wants.


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## be positive (19 January 2014)

Pearlsasinger said:



			Actually charities are over-run because people won't be responsible and pts horses that no-one wants.
		
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Or breeding from the unwanted mare, doubling the problem then dumping them on the charities one way or another.


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## dogatemysalad (19 January 2014)

Fools Motto said:



			Whatever the OP does, if under the guidance of us, here on this thread, or her vet, or even her family members, it is the right thing. I don't think any of us can judge her situation for her. We should be here to offer her support for her decision, and not criticise IF WE think it is wrong.  I wish the OP luck in finding the answer, and I wish the old mare well on her travels, whatever journey that may be.
		
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The thread is entitled WWYD dilemma. OP calls it a moral dilemma. It isn't an 'only post if you agree with me' thread. 

Posters now describe the mare as old, suffering from debilitating sweetitch, crippling arthritis that affects the quality of the horse's life and yet the OP describes the mare as a lovely horse with sweetitch and arthritis. The OP is not homeless or jobless. 

The dilemma is not one of illness or poverty, so lets not make excuses to sweeten the reality. 

The question is, would you PTS a horse just because you don't fancy having it anymore. 

Those who are honest enough to say yes, at least have some integrity. Those who pretend it is in the best interests of the horse, do not.


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## dogatemysalad (19 January 2014)

Jesstickle said:



			Good stuff. 

I do find people are more willing to voice their actual opinions/ideas on the forum. In life, if you ask people I find they are more likely to try and tell you what you want to hear, or not commit to any answer either way, or say what makes them seem like the better person,so you do get different ideas in RL and here. 

I suspect the online world is actually a better representation of what people really think. And I certainly don't have the experience in RL that you do on this matter. I chose my friends very carefully too 

Click to expand...

How do you know what happens in my life better than me ? I think I can recognise the difference between a sick horse and a healthy horse.


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## Goldenstar (19 January 2014)

dogatemysalad said:



			The thread is entitled WWYD dilemma. OP calls it a moral dilemma. It isn't an 'only post if you agree with me' thread. 

Posters now describe the mare as old, suffering from debilitating sweetitch, crippling arthritis that affects the quality of the horse's life and yet the OP describes the mare as a lovely horse with sweetitch and arthritis. The OP is not homeless or jobless. 

The dilemma is not one of illness or poverty, so lets not make excuses to sweeten the reality. 

The question is, would you PTS a horse just because you don't fancy having it anymore. 

Those who are honest enough to say yes, at least have some integrity. Those who pretend it is in the best interests of the horse, do not.
		
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I am very happy to say that a horse with an arthritic neck who has sweet itch currently receiving no medication is unlikely to be have a peachy time retired .


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## Mithras (19 January 2014)

In real life, as opposed to the internet, I know so many people who own elderly and/or unsound horses that they can't ride any more but who still put a lot of effort into caring for them.  Yes, it disrupts your life, but if you buy an elderly horse (appreciate you didn't know she was 19 when you got her but you must have known she was no spring chicken) that's inevitable.  People go to university and manage horses either at livery, or loaning them out (as I did, as a companion) or people's live change in different ways.  People get new jobs, go abroad, etc..  

There was an elderly mare with cushings at my yard until recently, who the owner had lost interest in to the extent that she had two sharers.  However I was so impressed with them because when she developed laminitis and the vet was pessimistic, they all pulled together to care for her round the clock, the owner paid the large vet's bills and then she was rehomed with a charity.  It is possible.  None of them were at all wealthy but they cared for the horse (and for two of them, it wasn't even their horse) which recovered and leads a happy life at the charity.

So the answer is OP, you have a choice between keeping the horse at DIY livery near wherever you move to, which is what tens of thousands of horse owners do, you try to rehome her to a charity or as a companion, you pay for her to go onto full livery, or you put her to sleep.  I also know of several people who keep retired horses on full livery while they work full time or buy second horses.  

Obviously, with this being HHO, and people being far more ready to put horses to sleep in the real world where people have consciences and things, you will be told repeatedly to pts.  But since you have lost interest, you probably won't miss her anyway, and as she is an old unwanted horse, she is meant to be grateful for dying and no-one will miss her.  

This is why I won't sell any of my horses once they are past 11 or 12 - I want to ensure they get good homes for life, with people that recognise that they deserve a retirement once they are past working age.  I know where 4 of the horses I'd had for a while are, although 3 of them are old and retired now, and they are still in those homes I sold them to.  Lucky horses.

Up to you entirely OP.


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## Jesstickle (19 January 2014)

dogatemysalad said:



			How do you know what happens in my life better than me ? I think I can recognise the difference between a sick horse and a healthy horse.
		
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Huh?! It was more of a philosophical musing. I don't see where I claim to know anything about your life?

And then it was a statement of fact about very similar situations to the OP that people in my real life have dealt with and how they are clearly different from the ones you have come across according to your own post?

Sorry if that wasn't clear


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## Moomin1 (19 January 2014)

Pearlsasinger said:



			Actually charities are over-run because people won't be responsible and pts horses that no-one wants.
		
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Correct to an extent. However, the main issue is that irresponsible people are breeding horses left right and centre.


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## MerrySherryRider (19 January 2014)

Goldenstar said:



			I am very happy to say that a horse with an arthritic neck who has sweet itch currently receiving no medication is unlikely to be have a peachy time retired .
		
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Not much hope for my lad then.

I'm leaving this thread, it's not often something on a forum sickens me, but some of the trendy attitudes on here have.


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## Goldenstar (19 January 2014)

MerrySherryRider said:



			Not much hope for my lad then.

I'm leaving this thread, it's not often something on a forum sickens me, but some of the trendy attitudes on here have.[/

There's nothing sickening in PTS an old horse who is unsaleable nothing sickening in keeping it either as long as you can afford its unkeep and medication ongoing into the future .
		
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## Flame_ (19 January 2014)

dogatemysalad said:



			I think I can recognise the difference between a sick horse and a healthy horse.
		
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Really? This is a massive grey area, summed up in my brain in about five main stages for horses - 

1 Peak physical condition
2 Ifs, buts and niggles but still pretty much fit for purpose
3 Soundness or health problems ending desired career but suitable for general riding and or hacking
4 Unridable but field sound
5 Uncomfortable or in distress at rest

Unsellable lies somewhere between 1 and 4, unhealthy lies somewhere between 2 and 5 and honestly if the OP's horse has sweet itch, its a 5 for me, unless it can be totally managed.


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## noodle_ (19 January 2014)

Moomin1 said:



			Correct to an extent. However, the main issue is that irresponsible people are breeding horses left right and centre.
		
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agree with this too.....

OP you will get shot down by some who are in the "rehome on loan" camp....in this economy who wants a companion when a ridable horse costs the same to keep??

I know what i would do (and have done!)


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## Goldenstar (19 January 2014)

noodle_ said:



			agree with this too.....

OP you will get shot down by some who are in the "rehome on loan" camp....in this economy who wants a companion when a ridable horse costs the same to keep??

I know what i would do (and have done!)
		
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Only an idiot would take a companion with sweet itch when so many horses are looking for homes .


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## Mithras (19 January 2014)

dogatemysalad said:



			If I only had the experience of HHO forum members, I'd think it was perfectly acceptable to have any horse PTS because the owner didn't want it.
Happily, in over 50 years, I have been fortunate to have known both professional and private owners who did not think this way, with the exception of just 2 people. 
 Sometimes RL, is a breath of fresh air.
		
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Same here.  I've only ever met one person who did it.  I was really horrified and shocked.

And I compete a lot and know a lot of competitive showjumping riders as well as people just happy to hack or not ride at all but at any level so much of it is about the partnership you have with your horse, how could you possibly just have it killed when it can no longer work.

Then again, I don't know any of those people who abandon dogs at the side of the road because they've bought a new puppy (at least hopefully I don't).

As for arthritis, there must be very few horses who have led a full working life and in their teens who do not have some traces of arthritis.  I would say the decision time comes when the horse struggles to get up or looks dull and listless.  Not because its a little stiff when an older horse.


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## Cortez (19 January 2014)

How do you think 95% of horses end their lives? The vast majority of horses are PTS, either by a vet or a slaughter house. A "natural" death is usually not very pleasant.


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## LaMooch (19 January 2014)

dogatemysalad said:



			The question is, would you PTS a horse just because you don't fancy having it anymore. 

Those who are honest enough to say yes, at least have some integrity. Those who pretend it is in the best interests of the horse, do not.
		
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There s a difference in putting down a horse that is healthy because you don't want it and one that you cant afford and who's health will detirate especially with arthritis in her neck she going to be in pain grazing sooner or later. The original poster doesn't want to sell her or loan her out in case she ends up in the wrong hands and I've seen the outcomes on this forum with lame/unrideable horses being sold as sound and rideable,


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## Adopter (19 January 2014)

OP you have been very honest about your situation.  

Last week BHS in an article discussed on this forumn, advised people to give their old unrideable equines a dignified end, and not pass on the pro blem to someone else.

25 is a very good age, many horses do not make it to such an age, and there is nothing for you to feel guilty about, you have cared for her, given her a good life, now the good times have past, let her go peacefully and move on with your life.  

Remember the good times and know that she is free of pain.


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## dogatemysalad (19 January 2014)

Former YO was an idiot then. Took a freebie sweetitch pony, with the worst skin condition I've ever come across and treated it. On her yard the sweetitch subsequently became a very manageable condition. The pony turned out to be an absolute little cracker which surpassed the abilities of the daughter's very expensive show pony.

There is nothing wrong in having a sick horse PTS. No humane owner allows a animal to suffer, 
The question here is- is it acceptable to put a horse that is not suffering, down simply because the owner doesn't want it ?

Like any older (or young horse) horse, tomorrow it may be sick or suffering. today it is not.


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## honetpot (19 January 2014)

''There was an elderly mare with cushings at my yard until recently, who the owner had lost interest in to the extent that she had two sharers. However I was so impressed with them because when she developed laminitis and the vet was pessimistic, they all pulled together to care for her round the clock, the owner paid the large vet's bills and then she was rehomed with a charity. It is possible. None of them were at all wealthy but they cared for the horse (and for two of them, it wasn't even their horse) which recovered and leads a happy life at the charity.''

 This is a prime example of why I will not give money to animal charities that stockpile elderly chronically sick animals and the people that pass on their responsibilities to them are not finding a good home for them they are passing the buck. I feel sickened when people who have little disposable income are guilt tripped into handing over cash for their care. When you have livestock you have dead stock, that's the responsibility of animal ownership.

  ''But since you have lost interest, you probably won't miss her anyway, and as she is an old unwanted horse, she is meant to be grateful for dying and no-one will miss her.''

   First of all this is a childish thing to say, (it reminds me of having a spate with my Mum when I was 12), and you are confusing loss of interest with not caring for her welfare. I have lost interest in looking after my children, one has left home and the other is on the runway but I do care what happens to them.
  I would also quite happily guide someone in having their animal PTS if it was right for the animal or their circumstances in person, I find it sad that people have to wait until an animal is distress before they will let go. I have a 29 year old pony and if I ever go down the field and find him unable to get up or in distress I would be truly ashamed.


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## Mithras (20 January 2014)

Deleted - too disgusted to reply.


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## Goldenstar (20 January 2014)

It's nor bravado in my case I do put all my horses to sleep only one my first pony has ever died ( it's assumed he had a heart attack ) I saw him in the morning he was ful of hell and at lunchtime he was dead .
Every single one I have PTS (except the  every few I sold all of whom where under eight .)
If you commit to keeping them and don't pass issues on I can't see any way round it.


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## dogatemysalad (20 January 2014)

honetpot said:



			I find it sad that people have to wait until an animal is distress before they will let go. I have a 29 year old pony and if I ever go down the field and find him unable to get up or in distress I would be truly ashamed.
		
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 We are not talking about having a suffering horse PTS though. 

How much value does a horse's life have ? Is it acceptable to end a horse's life just because the owner doesn't want the responsibility ? 

Why do some posters make excuses and invent scenerio's to sugar coat the reality? 

Basically, it seems some HHO posters think its fine to have any horse PTS simply because they want to.


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## dogatemysalad (20 January 2014)

Mithras said:



			Deleted - too disgusted to reply.
		
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I'm feeling much the same. Disgust is about right.


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## Goldenstar (20 January 2014)

dogatemysalad said:



			We are not talking about having a suffering horse PTS though. 

How much value does a horse's life have ? Is it acceptable to end a horse's life just because the owner doesn't want the responsibility ? 

Why do some posters make excuses and invent scenerio's to sugar coat the reality? 

Basically, it seems some HHO posters think its fine to have any horse PTS simply because they want to.
		
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That's it , yes I do think it's my desision when I put my horse down not sure who else's desision it could be .


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## dogatemysalad (20 January 2014)

Goldenstar said:



			That's it , yes I do think it's my desision when I put my horse down not sure who else's desision it could be .
		
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That is not the question here though. Do you put them down because you are bored with them then ?


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## Goldenstar (20 January 2014)

dogatemysalad said:



			That is not the question here though. Do you put them down because you are bored with them then ?
		
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No I don't .
But I think there's more to OP's dilemma than boredom .
But I will confess to putting down a perfectly healthly horse in November because I chose not to manage his behaviour anymore .
I know he was healthly because I had spent a fair bit trying to find a reason for his outbursts I decided enough was enough and it was only a question of time before he hurt someone ,he could not be turned out with other horses as well, I will also admitt that it was a relief after I did it .


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## Copperpot (20 January 2014)

I always think healthy includes mind as well as body. GS your horse obviously had a healthy body but maybe not mind, therefore he wasn't entirely healthy or happy I imagine. 

Personally and this is just my opinion, no I wouldn't pts a horse cos I couldn't ride it or was bored with it. But that's me. However I also wouldn't pass it on to someone else. But I would have difficulty in my mind justifying pts an animal that still had quality of life.


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## Cherryade (20 January 2014)

The horse in question may be healthy and happy in the present situation, if sold on who knows where it could end up. Buted up passed from dealer to dealer, health problems mis-managed etc so the question is pts now whilst happy and healthy or take a risk andd sell on where it could encounter neglect and suffer for years until the next kind person makes the right decision


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## Parisexx (20 January 2014)

I am not "bored" with the mare. I do not enjoy horses anymore and want to do tje right thing. This horse is preventing me from living my life. She has awful sweet itch in the summer needing 24/7 rambo hoody and electric fence all round or else will and has rub herself till she bleeds. The arthritis has been confirmed by a vet. I have looked after her and given her my best but now I need and want to move on in my life. I cannot live at home forever just to keep an elderly horse, how is it disgusting now I have to look at other options? ? Off to see to the "poor" mare now who will have another day in the field and tonight will be bk in to a lovely shavings bed. The horse is not hard done by believe me.


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## babymare (20 January 2014)

parisexx. Please please ring BHS and speak to them. Get some support and advice. Please be assured if you do devide to PTS there are many on here that will offer support to (myself inc) as they did to me when i was in smliar position. Please PM if you want. Just a hug to say i understand totally x x


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## luckyoldme (20 January 2014)

Hi op, this is just such a diverse forum with such a huge range of views. There are plenty of people on here who have working horses who would nt entertain the idea of keeping a horse till its 24. Plenty of working horses who are pts the day they can t do their job anymore.
You look after your horse well and when you decide to call it a day thats your business.


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## Parisexx (20 January 2014)

I think I will ring the bhs as well. I have diverse views on here and only have one or two horsie friends and they are my age x


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## Exploding Chestnuts (20 January 2014)

Copperpot said:



			Personally and this is just my opinion, no I wouldn't pts a horse cos I couldn't ride it or was bored with it. But that's me. However I also wouldn't pass it on to someone else. But I would have difficulty in my mind justifying pts an animal that still had quality of life.
		
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I am answering this post because the above is a perfectly reasonable argument, however it is a personal viewpoint by someone who is in a position [financial and or lifestyle] to keep a horse properly.
The OP's horse has health issues which will not improve. Now at the moment she could manage to continue with costs, and a lot of people are saying "don't p-t-s  a horse just because it is no longer of any use" but what if the OP suddenly had no income to pay for the horse,she would "have" to p-t-s ........ there would be no difference from the mare's point of view. 
Not sure if I have made my point, but it seems obvious to me [but not to some others], that if the OP found this an easy decision, she would not be posting on here.


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## Wagtail (20 January 2014)

Jesstickle said:



			I would say that it is a financial crisis to be living off your parents mid twenties due to a horse. But that's because I care more about my Mother than I do a horse. Call me weird and all that...
		
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Actually, most mothers hate it when their children leave home, no matter how old they are. It doesn't sound like the mother wants her daughter to leave at all. It is the daughter who wants to leave. So I really don't think how much you love your mother comes into it.

Of course the OP wants to leave home. That is absolutely natural. But I find all this comparing of love for an animal and love for her mother rather OTT and irrelevant (yours is not the only post highlighting this). Her mother probably dreads her going! I speak from experience.


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## cptrayes (20 January 2014)

Mithras said:



			There was an elderly mare with cushings at my yard until recently, who the owner had lost interest in to the extent that she had two sharers.  However I was so impressed with them because when she developed laminitis and the vet was pessimistic, they all pulled together to care for her round the clock, the owner paid the large vet's bills and then she was rehomed with a charity.  It is possible.  None of them were at all wealthy but they cared for the horse (and for two of them, it wasn't even their horse) which recovered and leads a happy life at the charity.
		
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I personally think what this poor old horse has been put through is disgusting.




			So the answer is OP, you have a choice between keeping the horse at DIY livery near wherever you move to, which is what tens of thousands of horse owners do, you try to rehome her to a charity or as a companion, you pay for her to go onto full livery, or you put her to sleep.  I also know of several people who keep retired horses on full livery while they work full time or buy second horses.
		
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That is not her range of options. She cannot afford rent and livery. She can only afford livery if she continues to live, and make her partner live, with her mother and father.

As for defining a horse with sweet itch as a companion, ignoring all the buddy's mummy risks, who in their right minds would take it?

And what is the point of rehoming to a charity? It simply means that they will not have room for some other horse, which will then be put down, so no life will have been saved.


I admire your attitude to your own horses. I am currently deciding how long to keep my oldest horse, eleven this year, because if he's with me much longer I feel I will owe him a home for life. But that home for life would not include an endless retirement, far less allowing his life to dictate where and with whom I live.


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## Patterdale (20 January 2014)

Mithras said:



			In real life, as opposed to the internet, I know so many people who own elderly and/or unsound horses that they can't ride any more but who still put a lot of effort into caring for them.  Yes, it disrupts your life, but if you buy an elderly horse (appreciate you didn't know she was 19 when you got her but you must have known she was no spring chicken) that's inevitable.
.
		
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I agree, I don't find RL anywhere near as trigger happy as HHO. 



MerrySherryRider said:



			it's not often something on a forum sickens me, but some of the trendy attitudes on here have.
		
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The phrase 'trendy attitudes' is spot on. 



Parisexx said:



			I am not "bored" with the mare. I do not enjoy horses anymore and want to do tje right thing.
		
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This is where I wish people would not beat around the bush and try and 'sugarcoat' everything. 
You are not trying to do 'the right thing' (Which would be to find a way to take responsibility for the mare and keep her until her quality of life is genuinely compromised). You are trying to do the easy thing (PTS to save yourself this hassle).

Is that wrong? That's not for me to say, that's down to your own conscience. 

But a lot of the phrases on this thread really annoy me, with people clearly just trying to justify to themselves. 
'Its the kindest thing' - no, the kindest thing would be to keep her as long as she's happy and care for her. 
'You're securing her future' - no, you're deleting her future so you don't have to worry about it. 
'Its kinder than passing her on' - but who says you have to pass her on? Put some effort into finding some cheaper retirement livery and do without a few takeaways and new shoes. 
'You're so brave' - no, brave would be to solve your problems head on, not simply eliminate them. 

OP, if you want to have the mare PTS then that's up to you. Im not against it to prevent suffering. 
But I just WISH that the people on this forum were capable of calling a spade a spade, and not coming out with the above crap to make the fact that you want to PTS your horse because you're fed up of it, a bit more palatable.


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## touchstone (20 January 2014)

I dreaded my children leaving home, but actually I would have dreaded them being tied to working to keep an unwanted horse more.  A few years ago a friend was rehoming a pony that I was very attached to, and I would have loved to taken but finances wouldn't permit.   My daughter wanted to take him for me and make all the payments and look after him, even though she isn't 'horsy' at all.   I wouldn't let her as I knew it would affect her future long term.   Ideally the OP wouldn't have got a horse in the first place that she couldn't look after long term, but as it has happened then it has to be dealt with in a way that doesn't affect the welfare of the horse.   I love my children at home, but I want them to be independent adults too.

It is all very well wanting to 'save' the individual, but when there are horses abandoned left right and centre and neglect soaring then a dose of reality isn't a bad thing.    I know of someone who recently had two yearling colts dumped on their land, they made an attempt at rehoming, which was unsucessful and ended having them pts.   Given the comparison, I think pts an older horse with medical issues isn't the worst thing that can happen.    The bottom line is that horses are sadly disposable in society today, through overbreeding and rising costs there are hundreds that are neglected, and until the issues of too many horses for too few homes is resolved then pts is not a wrong choice for welfare reasons.


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## BBH (20 January 2014)

Patterdale said:



			I agree, I don't find RL anywhere near as trigger happy as HHO. 



The phrase 'trendy attitudes' is spot on. 



This is where I wish people would not beat around the bush and try and 'sugarcoat' everything. 
You are not trying to do 'the right thing' (Which would be to find a way to take responsibility for the mare and keep her until her quality of life is genuinely compromised). You are trying to do the easy thing (PTS to save yourself this hassle).

Is that wrong? That's not for me to say, that's down to your own conscience. 

But a lot of the phrases on this thread really annoy me, with people clearly just trying to justify to themselves. 
'Its the kindest thing' - no, the kindest thing would be to keep her as long as she's happy and care for her. 
'You're securing her future' - no, you're deleting her future so you don't have to worry about it. 
'Its kinder than passing her on' - but who says you have to pass her on? Put some effort into finding some cheaper retirement livery and do without a few takeaways and new shoes. 
'You're so brave' - no, brave would be to solve your problems head on, not simply eliminate them. 

OP, if you want to have the mare PTS then that's up to you. Im not against it to prevent suffering. 
But I just WISH that the people on this forum were capable of calling a spade a spade, and not coming out with the above crap to make the fact that you want to PTS your horse because you're fed up of it, a bit more palatable.
		
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Totally agree.


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## biggingerpony (20 January 2014)

Patterdale said:



			I agree, I don't find RL anywhere near as trigger happy as HHO. 



The phrase 'trendy attitudes' is spot on. 



This is where I wish people would not beat around the bush and try and 'sugarcoat' everything. 
You are not trying to do 'the right thing' (Which would be to find a way to take responsibility for the mare and keep her until her quality of life is genuinely compromised). You are trying to do the easy thing (PTS to save yourself this hassle).

Is that wrong? That's not for me to say, that's down to your own conscience. 

But a lot of the phrases on this thread really annoy me, with people clearly just trying to justify to themselves. 
'Its the kindest thing' - no, the kindest thing would be to keep her as long as she's happy and care for her. 
'You're securing her future' - no, you're deleting her future so you don't have to worry about it. 
'Its kinder than passing her on' - but who says you have to pass her on? Put some effort into finding some cheaper retirement livery and do without a few takeaways and new shoes. 
'You're so brave' - no, brave would be to solve your problems head on, not simply eliminate them. 

OP, if you want to have the mare PTS then that's up to you. Im not against it to prevent suffering. 
But I just WISH that the people on this forum were capable of calling a spade a spade, and not coming out with the above crap to make the fact that you want to PTS your horse because you're fed up of it, a bit more palatable.
		
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I completely agree, while I can see the reasons to put to sleep to prevent suffering. I could not face putting a horse to sleep for selfish reasons. I own one 22 yr old mare who is on retirement livery, now on paper it would be much easier to put her to sleep (I am a 22yr old constantly skint final year uni student) but I just could not live with myself for putting her to sleep. So I forgo nights out, new clothes etc for the reason that my lovely mare is living out her days happily. I owe her everything and I'm sure she will tell me when the time has come and I won't just do it when it is convenient for me!

But that is just my opinion, I hate the thought of anything suffering and if you think that is the case then PTS may be the best option.


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## Cortez (20 January 2014)

It would be interesting, purely from an academic curiosity, to know the backgrounds of those who are pro putting the elderly, arthritic, sweet itch afflicted, unwanted mare down, and those who are con. 

Here's a guess: Pro = people who have had multiple horses over a long time period (i.e. more than 10 years). Con = people who have never actually yet been in the situation.

P.S. I prefer putting down BEFORE there is suffering myself.


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## lilacjackie (20 January 2014)

Cortez said:



			It would be interesting, purely from an academic curiosity, to know the backgrounds of those who are pro putting the elderly, arthritic, sweet itch afflicted, unwanted mare down, and those who are con. 

Here's a guess: Pro = people who have had multiple horses over a long time period (i.e. more than 10 years). Con = people who have never actually yet been in the situation.

P.S. I prefer putting down BEFORE there is suffering myself.
		
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This


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## Patterdale (20 January 2014)

Cortez said:



			It would be interesting, purely from an academic curiosity, to know the backgrounds of those who are pro putting the elderly, arthritic, sweet itch afflicted, unwanted mare down, and those who are con. 

Here's a guess: Pro = people who have had multiple horses over a long time period (i.e. more than 10 years). Con = people who have never actually yet been in the situation.

P.S. I prefer putting down BEFORE there is suffering myself.
		
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I'm a freelance trainer/rider and keep most of my own personal horses until the end. I've had (and have clients who've had) many elderly horses so I am not coming at this from a whimsical view. 

Only last summer I had a 16 year old PTS because of cushings and various related laminitis/condition problems. But that truly was to prevent suffering - not because I'd 'gone off him.'


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## Zebedee (20 January 2014)

This is really a very simple problem to solve.
Will all those in the 'a horse is for life camp' please form an orderly queue so that the OP can select which one of you gets to take it on.

OP this is not a dilemma. Have it PTS and move on with your life. (I would say more but many already have so no point repeating them)
Good luck.


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## Goldenstar (20 January 2014)

luckyoldme said:



			Hi op, this is just such a diverse forum with such a huge range of views. There are plenty of people on here who have working horses who would nt entertain the idea of keeping a horse till its 24. Plenty of working horses who are pts the day they can t do their job anymore.
You look after your horse well and when you decide to call it a day thats your business.
		
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Like this ,
While I enjoy these airings of views I basically happy in myself with what my approach is .
I do know that that if I felt I had got to the point where I had to PTS one of my pampered retired horses because it was suffering I would be disgusted with my self I would like to think I would never let that happen ( acute disease and injury aside of course ) .
I know other people take different views and as now thankfully I no longer have to engage with views of others in the real world unless I chose to.
I have lived abroad in a society where they don't believe they should PTS animals although the inconstancy of an attiude that makes it ok to eat meat but not ok to PTS say a racehorse i was something i struggled to understand the whole time I was there , that hardened my view considerably as did my time as a welfare officer .


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## Parisexx (20 January 2014)

I give up, I cnt win either way


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## Zebedee (20 January 2014)

Parisexx said:



			I give up, I cnt win either way
		
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You don't need the permission of an online community to have your mare PTS regardless of circumstances. If that's your decision then get on with it.
(FWIW I don't have a problem with the PTS option, and if money is tight get the hunt rather than the vet)


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## Goldenstar (20 January 2014)

Parisexx said:



			I give up, I cnt win either way
		
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This thread is not about you winning any thing this a pretty frank exchange of views on a emotive subject, which may or may not be helping you in the position you are in .
Talk to people in RL about this now your parents your OH your horsey friends and the BHS if you feel it might help.
You do have my best wishes .


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## Parisexx (20 January 2014)

I dnt have anyone to talk to about it thats why I put it on here. I will ring bhs though as suggested and feel slightly better getting it off my chest, feel trapped at the moment


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## Arizahn (20 January 2014)

You guys do know we're all going in circles arguing about this whilst the OP has left, right? The OP is new here, and appears to have either gotten the answer they need/want, been scared off, or was a sociologist. 

If a horse has an ongoing medical issue, then it should be under the care of a vet, even if not on medication. It should be checked at regular intervals to assess how things are. The vet is the one who should advise on quality of life and whether PTS is the right thing to do at a given point.

Personally, I will PTS when the animal is deemed to have insufficient quality of life, or when sustaining that quality is impossible, as opposed to merely inconvenient. But I am calling sociologist on this particular thread, and would suggest that we all take a step back, lower our assorted weapons and move on for now. 

If the OP returns with more information or questions, then we should of course respond, but for now this has gotten far too personal for a lot of those involved. And by a lot I mean everyone who is currently seething and/or feeling bad because of it. So hugs to all that are upset, and respect to all who have had to care for an ailing horse, or who have had or currently do have the PTS issue in their lives.


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## Parisexx (20 January 2014)

I havnt left I have replied numerous times


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## *hic* (20 January 2014)

Zebedee said:



			This is really a very simple problem to solve.
Will all those in the 'a horse is for life camp' please form an orderly queue so that the OP can select which one of you gets to take it on.
		
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Fabulous idea - but need to beware of buddy'smummy/jessicabeau etc.

I offered a group of cockerels to someone on here who was outraged that I was going to kill them for the pot as they were surplus to requirements. I even offered to transport them to her. She declined.

As for me, I go out each morning to see if the 30yo is still looking over his stable door. I've made sure I can keep mine for life. The cost of buying somewhere inconvenient to live so that the horses can be provided for is similar to buying in a convenient location with no land. So in this household the horses are catered for at the expense of the humans. Still, it's only an hour each way to my husband's work.


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## HazyXmas (20 January 2014)

Cortez said:



			It would be interesting, purely from an academic curiosity, to know the backgrounds of those who are pro putting the elderly, arthritic, sweet itch afflicted, unwanted mare down, and those who are con. 

Here's a guess: Pro = people who have had multiple horses over a long time period (i.e. more than 10 years). Con = people who have never actually yet been in the situation.

P.S. I prefer putting down BEFORE there is suffering myself.
		
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Spot On Cortez


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## *hic* (20 January 2014)

Parisexx said:



			I give up, I cnt win either way
		
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Unfortunately it's an emotive subject and other people want to give you their stories. What matters here is what you can cope with. If you can't cope with your mare then you need to solve that problem.  IMHO the decision needs to be one that you and your partner are most content with so: stay as you are, for as long as it takes; loan and take the risk that you may be trying to do all this again in a hurry if she comes back; or pts at a time of your choice.


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## Arizahn (20 January 2014)

Parisexx said:



			I havnt left I have replied numerous times
		
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Apologies, I was typing very slowly after reading a batch of replies. In the meantime, you returned. Ask your vet re mare's quality of life. Explain the financial side of things to them too - if you don't PTS there will be the ongoing costs of caring for her, if you do PTS there are the costs of that and disposal. You need to know your options and what it is going to cost. And talk to your OH and your parents - they need to know how you feel. It isn't about being horsey: it's about supporting you.

I am fairly certain that by the time I finish typing this, the thread will have moved on. Hopefully everyone will be yelling at me instead of at each other.


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## Moomin1 (20 January 2014)

BBH said:



			Totally agree.
		
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Completely agree


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## ester (20 January 2014)

Patterdale said:



			I agree, I don't find RL anywhere near as trigger happy as HHO. 



The phrase 'trendy attitudes' is spot on. 



This is where I wish people would not beat around the bush and try and 'sugarcoat' everything. 
You are not trying to do 'the right thing' (Which would be to find a way to take responsibility for the mare and keep her until her quality of life is genuinely compromised). You are trying to do the easy thing (PTS to save yourself this hassle).

Is that wrong? That's not for me to say, that's down to your own conscience. 

But a lot of the phrases on this thread really annoy me, with people clearly just trying to justify to themselves. 
'Its the kindest thing' - no, the kindest thing would be to keep her as long as she's happy and care for her. 
'You're securing her future' - no, you're deleting her future so you don't have to worry about it. 
'Its kinder than passing her on' - but who says you have to pass her on? Put some effort into finding some cheaper retirement livery and do without a few takeaways and new shoes. I don't see how retirement livery is an option for a horse with sweet itch?
'You're so brave' - no, brave would be to solve your problems head on, not simply eliminate them. 

OP, if you want to have the mare PTS then that's up to you. Im not against it to prevent suffering. 
But I just WISH that the people on this forum were capable of calling a spade a spade, and not coming out with the above crap to make the fact that you want to PTS your horse because you're fed up of it, a bit more palatable.
		
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I have no issue with PTS whatever the reason really, the animal doesn't know and I do think some oldies are left too long.


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## Mithras (20 January 2014)

Cortez said:



			It would be interesting, purely from an academic curiosity, to know the backgrounds of those who are pro putting the elderly, arthritic, sweet itch afflicted, unwanted mare down, and those who are con. 

Here's a guess: Pro = people who have had multiple horses over a long time period (i.e. more than 10 years). Con = people who have never actually yet been in the situation.

P.S. I prefer putting down BEFORE there is suffering myself.
		
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Actually, in my experience, its the opposite.  I know so many people who come from horsy families, or have had horses most of their lives, like me, who retire their old horses, whether that be from all work or in active work and just retired from competition, and keep them for years, when pts would save them time, money and effort.  Whereas the few people I know who have pts horses tend to the be the newer horse owner type, which goes from one horse to another quite quickly, rather than working for a few years with a horse to get a partnership.

Often these are the people who tend to be quite tough in competition too, or in business, but I would say they have their values in the right place and are genuine, decent people.  I guess its in situations like these that the real character of a person comes out.

If you pts horses BEFORE there is suffering, how do you know there is a reason to put them to sleep?


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## Bestdogdash (20 January 2014)

Cortez said:



			It would be interesting, purely from an academic curiosity, to know the backgrounds of those who are pro putting the elderly, arthritic, sweet itch afflicted, unwanted mare down, and those who are con. 

Here's a guess: Pro = people who have had multiple horses over a long time period (i.e. more than 10 years). Con = people who have never actually yet been in the situation.

P.S. I prefer putting down BEFORE there is suffering myself.
		
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I completely agree with this. 

OP you have had a lot of posts with opinions, and I thought some practical advice may help if you have this mare shot. I had a six year old TB shot last week, who probably could have been passed on as a 'light hack'/companion etc. but I thought way too much of him for that. It isn't the 'kind' option, it is the cowards way of passing the buck.

I contacted the hunt who advised me to get a professional slaughter man in for the job. The huntsman (who is my godson) said that they shoot an horse about every two weeks. A professional does about 10 a day and is much much better at it. My horse had a week of pampering, a big bucket of grub and a sedative. The (exceptionally kind ) chap arrived, came to the stable, and 10 seconds later the horse was dead. I retired to the house and he took the body away. He charged £200. Much better than a vet, quicker, cleaner and no chance of it taking time. 

I don't remotely feel guilty, I feel that I have done my duty by a very sweet horse.


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## Exploding Chestnuts (20 January 2014)

Arizahn said:



			Apologies, I was typing very slowly after reading a batch of replies. In the meantime, you returned. Ask your vet re mare's quality of life. Explain the financial side of things to them too - if you don't PTS there will be the ongoing costs of caring for her, if you do PTS there are the costs of that and disposal. You need to know your options and what it is going to cost. And talk to your OH and your parents - they need to know how you feel. It isn't about being horsey: it's about supporting you.

I am fairly certain that by the time I finish typing this, the thread will have moved on. Hopefully everyone will be yelling at me instead of at each other.
		
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A vet, who hardly knows a horse or the OP should really not be asked to be the arbiter of whether a horse is p-t-s or not ......
That is not to say that a vet could not be consulted in the same way as a BHS Officer could be consulted, more to increase OP's knowledge, and help her to make a decision.  I might ask a vet for his opinion if it it were a condition I were unsure about, but in this case we know that mare has issues, which will not improve, and probably need medication some time in the future.
It is ok to say current costs are £200 per month, but then there is regular vet bills , £200 per annum, and there could easily be more veterinary expenses, more likely with age.


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## Goldenstar (20 January 2014)

Mithras said:



			Actually, in my experience, its the opposite.  I know so many people who come from horsy families, or have had horses most of their lives, like me, who retire their old horses, whether that be from all work or in active work and just retired from competition, and keep them for years, when pts would save them time, money and effort.  Whereas the few people I know who have pts horses tend to the be the newer horse owner type, which goes from one horse to another quite quickly, rather than working for a few years with a horse to get a partnership.

Often these are the people who tend to be quite tough in competition too, or in business, but I would say they have their values in the right place and are genuine, decent people.  I guess its in situations like these that the real character of a person comes out.

If you pts horses BEFORE there is suffering, how do you know there is a reason to put them to sleep?
		
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The reason is based on many things is  that I have decided its time .
The last oldie I PTS was the field boss in his prime he had a slight undiagnosed lameness that did not repond to anti inflammatories he was almost field sound but not quite sometimes you see a slight unlevelness on tight turns .
He had lost his position as boss and the other horses started pushing him about him he had lost his sparkle it was the end of summer, I just got up one morning had coffee and made the call he was gone at lunchtime .
He still looked a picture but I knew him well I just felt it was time.
 I see many less sound horses being ridden .


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## Patterdale (20 January 2014)

Cortez said:



			. 

Here's a guess: Pro = people who have had multiple horses over a long time period (i.e. more than 10 years). Con = people who have never actually yet been in the situation.
		
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This kind of attitude really annoys me actually. 
'If you disagree it's because you're too novicey/inexperienced and have never been in that situation.' Basically. 
Isn't it possible that people can just have a different view, without being clueless?


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## Crugeran Celt (20 January 2014)

I think the same applies to a dog or cat, if they are ill and you are no longer in a position to be able to care for them properly they would be better off PTS than passed on to an unknown future. I wouldn't hesitate to have my dogs PTS if I could no longer keep them same as my horses.


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## Mithras (20 January 2014)

cptrayes said:



			I personally think what this poor old horse has been put through is disgusting.
		
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Don't be so ridiculous.  It had to be kept in, hence the sharers had to come up and muck out although they couldn't ride.  The horse was under constant veterinary supervision, and recovered, looks fantastic, coat shining, excellent condition, sound, shining eyes.  Are you seriously suggesting that every horse that suffers an illness should be pts?  Or that every single horse which develops laminitis or Cushings should be immediately killed?

Is this not taking the HHO obsession with pts a bit far?  I know it also seems to extend to putting to sleep every young healthy horse which occasionally shies or spooks or does something slightly untoward.  My older horse went through a phase of stopping at jumps, from previously being a regular winner BS.  Has always been a difficult horse to handle, I managed fine because I know what I'm doing.  Some people suggested I pts.  Guess what?  After a year off competing, he has come back good as ever and if I'd listened to those idiots, I would have pts a damned good horse which people were projecting had all sorts of things wrong with it.  But if he hadn't wanted to come back and just wanted to mooch around the field, I could not pts such a healthy active horse just because I'd moved onto a new one.



cptrayes said:



			That is not her range of options. She cannot afford rent and livery. She can only afford livery if she continues to live, and make her partner live, with her mother and father.
		
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In that case, I don't think people should buy horses if they do not consider what they will do with them in a few years time, should their circumstances change or the horse become ill or unsound.  I think when you buy any animal, you make a commitment, as the greater species, to look after that animal for its natural lifespan.   You see it with people who buy puppies and then want rid of them because they can't train them or its no longer so cute when it become an adult dog.  I think treating horses as disposable material goods to be killed when they are no longer convenient to their owners isn't something that should be encouraged, by making pts healthy horses mainstream.




cptrayes said:



			And what is the point of rehoming to a charity? It simply means that they will not have room for some other horse, which will then be put down, so no life will have been saved.
		
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Whats the point in any charities?  Some people want to run them, I don't see why they should be criticised (unless they're of that obsessive horse hoarder variety).  Why not pts all horses automatically on reaching age 14 then, since this will undoubtedly mean more space for young horses with owners who want a horse for only a few years.



cptrayes said:



			I admire your attitude to your own horses. I am currently deciding how long to keep my oldest horse, eleven this year, because if he's with me much longer I feel I will owe him a home for life. But that home for life would not include an endless retirement, far less allowing his life to dictate where and with whom I live.
		
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I've kept horses on virtually no money while at university, and through various life changes.  It is possible.  I couldn't live with myself for pts a healthy horse which had served me well and which I had a partnership with.  Of course there comes a time when a horse may not be healthy or suffering, in which case pts is the most humane option.  Or as in the thread on here recently, a dangerous horse even in the field.


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## Arizahn (20 January 2014)

MrsD123 said:



			A vet, who hardly knows a horse or the OP should really not be asked to be the arbiter of whether a horse is p-t-s or not ......
That is not to say that a vet could not be consulted in the same way as a BHS Officer could be consulted, more to increase OP's knowledge, and help her to make a decision.  I might ask a vet for his opinion if it it were a condition I were unsure about, but in this case we know that mare has issues, which will not improve, and probably need medication some time in the future.
It is ok to say current costs are £200 per month, but then there is regular vet bills , £200 per annum, and there could easily be more veterinary expenses, more likely with age.
		
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The vet can however give her the costs of any treatment, assess the mare, and will actually know what they are talking about. Given that the OP's thread has devolved into an argument, I suspect that professional advice would be useful to her.


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## Exploding Chestnuts (20 January 2014)

Crugeran Celt said:



			I think the same applies to a dog or cat, if they are ill and you are no longer in a position to be able to care for them properly they would be better off PTS than passed on to an unknown future. I wouldn't hesitate to have my dogs PTS if I could no longer keep them same as my horses.
		
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I have already "decided" to have my little one [cat1] put down if she ever needs any stressful daily medication, she is just too nervy. The other one [Cat2] would probably cope. 
I am having no more ponies, its just too stressful for me!


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## ester (20 January 2014)

but whatever your forward planning as you say Mithras we all know circumstances do change... and what you plan to do with them if they do is then very dependent on their age and health as to whether it is appropriate to pass the horse on. - In this case it really isn't.


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## Exploding Chestnuts (20 January 2014)

Arizahn said:



			The vet can however give her the costs of any treatment, assess the mare, and will actually know what they are talking about. Given that the OP's thread has devolved into an argument, I suspect that professional advice would be useful to her.
		
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I think that is what I said in post.
She knows current costs of treatment, but there is no crystal ball, from experience we know that the vet bills will not decrease.


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## Arizahn (20 January 2014)

MrsD123 said:



			I think that is what I said in post.
She knows current costs of treatment, but there is no crystal ball, from experience we know that the vet bills will not decrease.
		
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I am using the word treatment as code for PTS and disposal.


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## Wagtail (20 January 2014)

dogatemysalad said:



			If I only had the experience of HHO forum members, I'd think it was perfectly acceptable to have any horse PTS because the owner didn't want it.
Happily, in over 50 years, I have been fortunate to have known both professional and private owners who did not think this way, with the exception of just 2 people. 
 Sometimes RL, is a breath of fresh air.
		
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I too have found this. There is a stark contrast between here and real life. I hate the flippant way people can't wait to say PTS on here. However, I have also seen some horses that have been kept going far too long because their owners could not bear to part with them. 

In this particular case I am unsure what to think. The mare is not on any medication. I wonder why that is if she is so bad that she cannot be ridden. However, I do think that this mare has a poor outlook if her owner does not want her, and she does not want her. She resents her. It is not her OH that is pushing for the horse to be PTS, on the contrary, he is discouraging it. He knows his girlfriend far better than any of us in a forum could know her. She is also wanting to leave home, not for her mother, but for herself. This is perfectly natural, and I would want to do the same in her shoes.

There is no good option for this mare other than for the OP to retire her and keep her whilst she is still comfortable and has a quality of life, or she is PTS. And the former is not a good option if the horse is resented. So sadly, in this case, I feel the only option is to put the mare to sleep.


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## Elvis (20 January 2014)

Much has already been discussed and valid points have been made from both sides of the discussion. However from my point of view, age and health conditions aside...

The owner has fallen out of love with horses, she no longer has that passion which is so important when having horses. If the mare was young and sound, everyone would be suggesting that she sells her. However I don't believe this, or loaning is an option, the risk of an uncertain and potentially awful future is just too high. 

So that means, money problems aside, the owner has to keep a horse for potentially another 10 years that she no longer has a passion for. It's not her fault she was duped into buying an older horse and it isn't her fault she fell out of love with horses- that certainly isn't something you can foresee. 

Yes I do understand that when you buy a horse you have to be committed, and those who argue that it isn't the horses fault that the owner no longer has an interest in horses have a point. However the mare clearly needs a lot of time and money to maintain her with the SI, and the arthritus will only get worse. 

The owner despite no longer wanting horses has continued to give this horse a high level of care and foregone her own aspirations, surely as time goes on she will only start to resent the mare, and that isn't good for either parties. 

It's hard enough living on the breadline so you can afford to maintain an unrideable elderly horse, can you imagine doing that when you no longer love horses? 

I'm not saying there is a 'right' answer to this dilemma, but the well being of the owner as well as the mare need to be considered.


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## Wagtail (20 January 2014)

Mithras said:



			In real life, as opposed to the internet, I know so many people who own elderly and/or unsound horses that they can't ride any more but who still put a lot of effort into caring for them.  Yes, it disrupts your life, but if you buy an elderly horse (appreciate you didn't know she was 19 when you got her but you must have known she was no spring chicken) that's inevitable.  People go to university and manage horses either at livery, or loaning them out (as I did, as a companion) or people's live change in different ways.  People get new jobs, go abroad, etc..  

There was an elderly mare with cushings at my yard until recently, who the owner had lost interest in to the extent that she had two sharers.  However I was so impressed with them because when she developed laminitis and the vet was pessimistic, they all pulled together to care for her round the clock, the owner paid the large vet's bills and then she was rehomed with a charity.  It is possible.  None of them were at all wealthy but they cared for the horse (and for two of them, it wasn't even their horse) which recovered and leads a happy life at the charity.

So the answer is OP, you have a choice between keeping the horse at DIY livery near wherever you move to, which is what tens of thousands of horse owners do, you try to rehome her to a charity or as a companion, you pay for her to go onto full livery, or you put her to sleep.  I also know of several people who keep retired horses on full livery while they work full time or buy second horses.  

Obviously, with this being HHO, and people being far more ready to put horses to sleep in the real world where people have consciences and things, you will be told repeatedly to pts.  But since you have lost interest, you probably won't miss her anyway, and as she is an old unwanted horse, she is meant to be grateful for dying and no-one will miss her.  

This is why I won't sell any of my horses once they are past 11 or 12 - I want to ensure they get good homes for life, with people that recognise that they deserve a retirement once they are past working age.  I know where 4 of the horses I'd had for a while are, although 3 of them are old and retired now, and they are still in those homes I sold them to.  Lucky horses.

Up to you entirely OP.
		
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Excellent post. If only everyone thought that way.


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## ester (20 January 2014)

I guess all the people who are uphauled would continue to live with their parents for the next 10+ years then given that this mare really doesn't have any other optimistic looking options?


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## TarrSteps (20 January 2014)

Mithras it's clear you feel strongly about your stance, and that is absolutely your right. I am pleased that you have always been in a position where you have been able to home and care for your retired horses.  (I have had one horse that was still with me in old age and I had him for 24 years, just for the record. Every other horse I have owned, I know where it is or how it lived out its life, so I am not speaking with a guilty conscience. I currently have one standing in a field who could reasonably be there another 15 years!). But this is not everyone's reality. Of course people should think before purchasing and make arrangements but life does not always go according to plan. 

What I am most interested in on this thread is that no one has mentioned the OPs parents! Why are they not due any consideration? (I have to say, horsey people seem to have a higher than normal sense that their parents should infinitely indugle their horsey interests.) So the OP lives at home until what? The mare dies of natural causes? The bills become too large for the OP to handle? 

As far as passing the horse on. . .what was the stat this week? The conservative estimate is that there are now 7000 - 7000!! - horses in the UK "at risk". I suspect this doesn't include the ones already with the full up charities. How can people possibly kid themselves that there is a huge untapped resource of people just waiting to care for older horses?? How can sending an old horse out into that environment possibly be guaranteed to end well? 

I'm going to say something really unpopular now. During the last recession there was a huge "correction" in the equine population. Some of it was due to lower breeding numbers but I bet not all of it. We may not want to see it but that is, of course, how populations work in the wild and, frankly, it gives the ones left a fighting chance. I would like to know that every horse born would go to a caring home but that ain't going to happen. Failing that, I'd like everyone to be able to keep their old horses in the manner to which they have become accustomed. Hmm, probably not going to get that, either. So, being a realist, I hope that at least every horse lives its life being comfortable and well cared for, however long or short that life. 

Horses are expensive. I love the fact that people are happy to take money for them when they sell them but somehow when it comes to this situation, then money is not supposed to enter into it at all. I would love to live in that world.

As to people not being "pts" . . .not everyone agrees with you there! There are lots of ill people who would be happy to save their families the agony and yes, the expense, on many levels, of fighting a losing battle. 

No one is happy about putting horses down. We would love there not to be a need for it. But I'd rather people faced reality and saw the cost of their choices than lived in some fantasy land where other people will make it okay if they can't. I really do not think people are "telling" owners to put horses down in posts like this, I think they are, consciously or not, "giving permission". No one is really going to make that decision because of what people on the Internet say. Posters are merely saying that yes, that decision gets made every day and no, it's not nice but sometimes the options are worse.

Btw, it's an offshoot of my business that I do sometimes see horses put down that I, personally, would make a different choice for. But it isn't my choice. So I save my breath (most of the time) and do the best for the ones I can help.


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## touchstone (20 January 2014)

Tarrsteps - agree totally.


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## undergroundoli (20 January 2014)

BBH said:



			Work harder then, think outside the box, buy land to  self build, buy in a cheap area and move when more financially  established . Make sacrifices , second jobs.

I'm s firm believer if you want something badly enough you'll find a way.
		
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People have commitments that are not compatible with all this though, especially living in a cheaper area. 

I'd love to own a house with land, and if I moved to Scotland I could probably afford one. However my partner spends most of his weekends in Bognor Regis helping his parents look after his grandfather who has dementia, and I check in on my mother in Oxford fairly regularly. The is a distinct lack of cheap areas in the South East and we live in a scuzzy part of South London, where two bed flats conveniently located for stabbings start at about 300,000. 

I bet loads of people on hear have ties that make owning a home with land unrealistic.

Life is the art of the possible. 



Love said:



			OP you have 2 options. 

1.) try and find someone else to take this mare on, knowing that once you do there is nothing to stop her ending up having an uncertain future, ending up who knows where and in who knows what state. Yes you might luckily find someone genuine to take her but you don't know that until it's too late. I know I wouldn't take the risk with such an old, unrideable horse. 

2.) have her pts knowing she went without realising a thing and that you have secured her future and know she will never ever end up in the wrong hands. 

I know which I'd pick, but essentially those are your options. In a nutshell.
		
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Aside from the lunatic turn her out on a nice moor idea I agree. You've provided her with two years of retirement. People do need to move on with their lives, its not healthy to be economically stuck in kidulthood.


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## Patterdale (20 January 2014)

ester said:



			I guess all the people who are uphauled would continue to live with their parents for the next 10+ years then given that this mare really doesn't have any other optimistic looking options?
		
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No, as previously stated I'd face up to my responsibilities and get an evening job/forego a couple of luxuries to put it on retirement livery. This is because I personally could not have it on my conscience that I'd killed a happy horse because I'd gone off it and didnt want the hassle.

You asked, and that's my own personal opinion


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## LadyGascoyne (20 January 2014)

I think that if we strip the motivation away, we have an old, unwanted, unsound, arthritic horse which cannot be ridden. This story does not have a happy ending.

This does not mean that I agree with the motivation. On the surface, I probably disagree with it- but that is all these posts ever are: just the surface.

My opinion would be to have the poor old mare PTS. I cannot see that there is any other option for her. The whole situation is desperately sad.


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## Wagtail (20 January 2014)

Cortez said:



			It would be interesting, purely from an academic curiosity, to know the backgrounds of those who are pro putting the elderly, arthritic, sweet itch afflicted, unwanted mare down, and those who are con. 

Here's a guess: Pro = people who have had multiple horses over a long time period (i.e. more than 10 years). Con = people who have never actually yet been in the situation.

P.S. I prefer putting down BEFORE there is suffering myself.
		
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I am a pro. I've had many horses. I have had to make that 'decision' only once. And it was my favourite horse ever. Lots of people told me to PTS on here a whole two years before I did. But only I knew when it was time. I am thankful in the knowledge that she was PTS at EXACTLY the right time. She never got to suffer and was happy and perky the day she died. But I knew that it was all down hill from there. If I had PTS sooner as urged by people on here, then I would have been plagued by guilt as it was way too soon. It was hard enough making that decision when the time was exactly right.

The other horses that have been PTS have been so because it was a medical emergency such as colic or broken limb. And that is in 40 years of ownership. None of my horses have ever been sold on. Only one left my care and that was to go to my sister.


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## Mithras (20 January 2014)

TarrSteps said:



			Mithras it's clear you feel strongly about your stance, and that is absolutely your right. I am pleased that you have always been in a position where you have been able to home and care for your retired horses.  (I have had one horse that was still with me in old age and I had him for 24 years, just for the record. Every other horse I have owned, I know where it is or how it lived out its life, so I am not speaking with a guilty conscience. I currently have one standing in a field who could reasonably be there another 15 years!). But this is not everyone's reality. Of course people should think before purchasing and make arrangements but life does not always go according to plan.
		
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If I'm giving the impression that I'm against pts in the right circumstances, then I apologise.  Its just that I'm honestly rather disgusted at the increasing number of pts threads on here recently from what is in the main rather novice horse owners.  I also wonder if its a regional thing - I must admit to being quite critical of the Scots at times but from what I see of a lot of people here, particularly in the Central Belt and the Borders, is that they are really doting on their horses.  Sometimes the people that act the toughest are the ones that do everything they can by their horses when they are no longer doing the job they were bought for, whether they are rich or poor.  Maybe I just mostly know people like that in the horse world.  I know when I moved to a quite different part of Scotland, I was quite shocked by the different attitudes to pts and horsemanship.

As for the OP, well I guess no-one who ever left home and didn't live with their parents ever had a horse at livery before.


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## babymare (20 January 2014)

agree tarrsteps


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## undergroundoli (20 January 2014)

Mithras said:



			In that case, I don't think people should buy horses if they do not consider what they will do with them in a few years time, should their circumstances change or the horse become ill or unsound.  I think when you buy any animal, you make a commitment, as the greater species, to look after that animal for its natural lifespan.   You see it with people who buy puppies and then want rid of them because they can't train them or its no longer so cute when it become an adult dog.  I think treating horses as disposable material goods to be killed when they are no longer convenient to their owners isn't something that should be encouraged, by making pts healthy horses mainstream.
		
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As much as I'd love a dog I wouldn't get one (or a cat), I'm not stable enough to grantee I could provide it with a home for life. However I'd get a youngish horse with the idea I'd probably be selling it as my circumstances changed. Horses with some experience are valued, and I'm confident I could find it a good home. Loads of horse owners don't have the experience to own a youngster, and I'm not sure how one would acquire it without having owned an older horse. The horse loving community is strengthened by the sale of middle aged horses, and it allows us to care for our horses better. 

I wouldn't get an 18 year old, say, but if my theoretical horse developed some issue that meant it was unsuitable to be sold I'd PTS in a heartbeat rather than not be in an economic position to have children.


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## MissMoo (20 January 2014)

Agree Tarrsteps


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## Goldenstar (20 January 2014)

This all about personal opinions and views personally I never keep a horse that's not sound ( not talking about 12m circles on the hard on the lunge here ) can't graze at least 70% of the time in summer ,who can't have the company of its fellows , who is too stiff to be stabled ( it's just too exposed here ).
You have to find the right time for you based on all sorts of things and the economics is part of that for some people .
I don't feel guilty about any horse I have PTS I did feel a bit strange about CF but that was an unusual situation and it was done after a very frightening experiance .


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## undergroundoli (20 January 2014)

Patterdale said:



			No, as previously stated I'd face up to my responsibilities and get an evening job/forego a couple of luxuries to put it on retirement livery. This is because I personally could not have it on my conscience that I'd killed a happy horse because I'd gone off it and didnt want the hassle.

You asked, and that's my own personal opinion 

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I don't think I know nearly enough about the OP's education and plans for furthering it, current job, location, transport costs, family commitments, relationship or spending patterns to have an opinion about how she can provide for the horse.


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## TarrSteps (20 January 2014)

undergroundoli said:



			People have commitments that are not compatible with all this though, especially living in a cheaper area. 

I'd love to own a house with land, and if I moved to Scotland I could probably afford one. However my partner spends most of his weekends in Bognor Regis helping his parents look after his grandfather who has dementia, and I check in on my mother in Oxford fairly regularly. The is a distinct lack of cheap areas in the South East and we live in a scuzzy part of South London, where two bed flats conveniently located for stabbings start at about 300,000. 

I bet loads of people on hear have ties that make owning a home with land unrealistic.

Life is the art of the possible. 



Aside from the lunatic turn her out on a nice moor idea I agree. You've provided her with two years of retirement. People do need to move on with their lives, its not healthy to be economically stuck in kidulthood.
		
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Love the quote.


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## HazyXmas (20 January 2014)

LadyGascoyne said:



			I think that if we strip the motivation away, we have an old, unwanted, unsound, arthritic horse which cannot be ridden. This story does not have a happy ending.

This does not mean that I agree with the motivation. On the surface, I probably disagree with it- but that is all these posts ever are: just the surface.

My opinion would be to have the poor old mare PTS. I cannot see that there is any other option for her. The whole situation is desperately sad.
		
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Well said. Also totally agree with Tarrsteps.

Surprised at Patterdale & Wagtails views, i'm guessing that neither of you have grown up children that need to start making their own way in the World? This old mare has health issues which need very careful management. She has had the last 6 years in the same home, 2 of which have been retirement. If she ends her days there having been loved & well cared for she will be a very lucky horse.


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## HazyXmas (20 January 2014)

Goldenstar said:



			This all about personal opinions and views personally I never keep a horse that's not sound ( not talking about 12m circles on the hard on the lunge here ) can't graze at least 70% of the time in summer ,who can't have the company of its fellows , who is too stiff to be stabled ( it's just too exposed here ).
You have to find the right time for you based on all sorts of things and the economics is part of that for some people .
I don't feel guilty about any horse I have PTS I did feel a bit strange about CF but that was an unusual situation and it was done after a very frightening experiance .
		
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More sensible advice  My sentiments exactly.


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## Wagtail (20 January 2014)

HazyXmas said:



			Well said. Also totally agree with Tarrsteps.

Surprised at Patterdale & Wagtails views, i'm guessing that neither of you have grown up children that need to start making their own way in the World? This old mare has health issues which need very careful management. She has had the last 6 years in the same home, 2 of which have been retirement. If she ends her days there having been loved & well cared for she will be a very lucky horse.
		
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I have a 20 year old and an 18 year old.


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## Mithras (20 January 2014)

HazyXmas said:



			Well said. Also totally agree with Tarrsteps.

Surprised at Patterdale & Wagtails views, i'm guessing that neither of you have grown up children that need to start making their own way in the World? This old mare has health issues which need very careful management. She has had the last 6 years in the same home, 2 of which have been retirement. If she ends her days there having been loved & well cared for she will be a very lucky horse.
		
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For goodness sake, do we have to be subjected to the repeated "how lucky a horse is to die" line?

The horse won't know anything about it, and has no concept of being "lucky".  At least be honest and admit its the owner that will feel good about the certainty provided by pts, and not the horse, which will simply cease to exist.


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## TarrSteps (20 January 2014)

Mithras said:



			If I'm giving the impression that I'm against pts in the right circumstances, then I apologise.  Its just that I'm honestly rather disgusted at the increasing number of pts threads on here recently from what is in the main rather novice horse owners.  I also wonder if its a regional thing - I must admit to being quite critical of the Scots at times but from what I see of a lot of people here, particularly in the Central Belt and the Borders, is that they are really doting on their horses.  Sometimes the people that act the toughest are the ones that do everything they can by their horses when they are no longer doing the job they were bought for, whether they are rich or poor.  Maybe I just mostly know people like that in the horse world.  I know when I moved to a quite different part of Scotland, I was quite shocked by the different attitudes to pts and horsemanship.

As for the OP, well I guess no-one who ever left home and didn't live with their parents ever had a horse at livery before.
		
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Fair enough but I restate my point that arguing people shouldn't buy in the first place is a bit shutting the door after the horse has bolted. Having spent most of my horsey life in a part of the world where horse purchase and ownership is more expensive I'm amazed at the number of people who live very close to the economic line here and have horses. Fine if it all works out, quickly disastrous if it doesn't! 

I think it's a useful conversation to keep having though. Again and again. So those people who have not had personal experience keep thinking about the possibilities. 

Especially in the current economic climate. 

Having had horses put down for people and, even worse, having been the poor sucker who has had to take horses to auction because the owners can't or won't care for them, I have no illusions. 

My only point to the OP is don't kid yourself about the chance of the horse having a long and happy life with someone else.  It's all very well to say get another job or whatever but given how many people now can't even get that done to look after their kids, don't count on it.


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## ester (20 January 2014)

Patterdale said:



			No, as previously stated I'd face up to my responsibilities and get an evening job/forego a couple of luxuries to put it on retirement livery. This is because I personally could not have it on my conscience that I'd killed a happy horse because I'd gone off it and didnt want the hassle.

You asked, and that's my own personal opinion 

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but what if you already have an evening job and don't really do luxuries... 

I've been there, done that and only just had enough money to fund myself... and as I said before are you really suggesting that retirement livery is suitable for a mare with sweetitch?????


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## Goldenstar (20 January 2014)

I have done the auction thing too although I did not take the horse in the ring .
I touched her nose prayed she had a soft landing and left her in the stable .
I have also had the appalling experiance more than once as a welfare officer of realising with horror the aged horse we where preparing to PTS on extreme suffering grounds was a horse I had known in its competitive prime .
I have seen a mare waiting to go to slaughter wicker and force her way through the group when she saw me at one point her life she had a blonde owner who perhaps dressed and sounded like me .
She haunted me for months .
Bad bad things happen to some old horses .


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## ester (20 January 2014)

Mithras said:



			The horse won't know anything about it
		
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Is this not the point?


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## marmalade76 (20 January 2014)

crazyhorse37 said:



			A horse is for life, not just for when it suits you.  This is something that you need to think about before you buy a horse, no matter whether you were misled.  At some point she still would have got to this age.  Putting her down for your own benefit is totally irresponsible.  When family become a burden we don't give them a meal and 'put them down'.  Sorry, I think that you have to find a solution other than the easy way out above.  Charities are over-run because of people not thinking about the consequences of buying a horse.
		
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Cripes, it's a good thing that your view is a minority, otherwise anyone looking for a been there, done that schoolmaster type (novices, children) would be completely stuffed! 

And as for irresponsible, charities are over run due to people NOT doing the responsible thing!


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## Mithras (20 January 2014)

TarrSteps said:



			Fair enough but I restate my point that arguing people shouldn't buy in the first place is a bit shutting the door after the horse has bolted. Having spent most of my horsey life in a part of the world where horse purchase and ownership is more expensive I'm amazed at the number of people who live very close to the economic line here and have horses. Fine if it all works out, quickly disastrous if it doesn't!
		
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In East Central Scotland, within reasonable commuting distance of Edinburgh, you will need to spend around £650,000 to get anything with land attached.  I appreciate the Borders are cheaper and you might get something around the 400k mark, or even 350k.  Properties with land are like hen's teeth though and go for a premium.  So my experiences there were mainly of DIY livery at around £150 a month plus costs, or full livery at £400 a month.  There are of course cheaper places to buy with land in Scotland but I wouldn't want to live there/wouldn't be practical to live there which is why it will be another year before I get my own place.

Isn't it strange how there seems to be less outcry over horses no longer being wanted and pts than dogs and cats?  There are people out there who will just abandon an animal once it grows up or proves slightly difficult to handle, whether that be a dog, cat or a horse.  Personally don't find it acceptable and I don't think pointing that out is harmful, quite the opposite!


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## HazyXmas (20 January 2014)

Mithras said:



			For goodness sake, do we have to be subjected to the repeated "how lucky a horse is to die" line?

The horse won't know anything about it, and has no concept of being "lucky".  At least be honest and admit its the owner that will feel good about the certainty provided by pts, and not the horse, which will simply cease to exist.
		
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You mis-understand Mithras, i'm am not saying that the horse is lucky to die. My opinion is merely that she is lucky to have been in the same home for 6 years & if she ends her days, whether that be now or in 10 years time, in the same home, having been suitably cared for, she will be lucky.

I believe that there are worse fates that a quick, painless death. I have my own stiff elderly horse & one that suffers with SI so i do know the realities of dealing with these problems. I currently have 6 horses & have owned many, many other's. I love them to bits & they are a huge part of my life. I care for them alone & worry about their every move. However, i also have four children & at the end of the day they are most important to me, i would not put a horses welfare above that of a person.

This is what makes the forum so interesting, the fact that everyone has different views & ideas. Can we agree to disagree?


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## Patterdale (20 January 2014)

HazyXmas said:



			Surprised at Patterdale & Wagtails views, i'm guessing that neither of you have grown up children that need to start making their own way in the World? This old mare has health issues which need very careful management. She has had the last 6 years in the same home, 2 of which have been retirement. If she ends her days there having been loved & well cared for she will be a very lucky horse.
		
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I have a child, but not grown up. I will always teach him that if he has pets, they are his responsibility and it is up to him to make provision for their care if his circumstances change. 
If I found out that my son was planning to have a previously much loved pet killed because he'd gone off it/didn't want the hassle of it, I would be mortified. 
I managed to move out of home with an elderly pony with Cushings without the necessity to have it shot. It's not impossible, or uncommon. 



Mithras said:



			For goodness sake, do we have to be subjected to the repeated "how lucky a horse is to die" line?

The horse won't know anything about it, and has no concept of being "lucky".  At least be honest and admit its the owner that will feel good about the certainty provided by pts, and not the horse, which will simply cease to exist.
		
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This. 
The sugary language on this thread is really getting quite sick inducing. Say it like it is or don't say it.


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## Patterdale (20 January 2014)

ester said:



			... as I said before are you really suggesting that retirement livery is suitable for a mare with sweetitch?????
		
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OP said she's fine with a rug on, so why not?


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## Goldenstar (20 January 2014)

Patterdale said:



			OP said she's fine with a rug on, so why not?
		
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Only in a fully electric fenced paddock and the retirement liverys I know dont stable during the worse times of day  or remove rugs daily , the retirement liverys I know would not be suitable for a sweet itch horse .


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## Wagtail (20 January 2014)

Goldenstar said:



			I have seen a mare waiting to go to slaughter wicker and force her way through the group when she saw me at one point her life she had a blonde owner who perhaps dressed and sounded like me .
She haunted me for months .
Bad bad things happen to some old horses .
		
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That has really upset me. Poor little mare. It's just heart breaking.


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## MerrySherryRider (20 January 2014)

Cortez said:



			It would be interesting, purely from an academic curiosity, to know the backgrounds of those who are pro putting the elderly, arthritic, sweet itch afflicted, unwanted mare down, and those who are con. 

Here's a guess: Pro = people who have had multiple horses over a long time period (i.e. more than 10 years). Con = people who have never actually yet been in the situation.

P.S. I prefer putting down BEFORE there is suffering myself.
		
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In answer to your question;
I am against the disposal of animals for convenience. 

I think it is 51 years since I was first lifted onto a saddle. In my adult life, I have owned and paid for 7 horses and cared for many more. 
One of those, magnificent mare was PTS aged 10 due to aggressive and severe arthritis and currently, I have one that will never be ridden again, aged 16yrs. I have no qualms about having her PTS when medication is no longer keeping her pain free and an active and full member of a herd. My decision will be based on her best interests, not mine.

With each horse I've bought or taken responsibility for, I have first thought realistically about whether I could forsee a time when I would not be able to offer a home for life. For any of us, unforeseen circumstances happen and when one's back is against the wall, euthanasia may well a responsible option for a horse with severe issues.
 This is not the case with the OP. Her's is a lifestyle choice. I do have some respect for her though. She at least sees it as a moral dilemma, not taken lightly. Unlike some of the posters here who so often rush to join the chorus of shouts to have an wanted horse put down.

My impression is that a significant number of those shouting to PTS, are young and inexperienced and have never faced the dilemma themselves.


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## undergroundoli (20 January 2014)

Patterdale said:



			If I found out that my son was planning to have a previously much loved pet killed because he'd gone off it/didn't want the hassle of it, I would be mortified.
		
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Living with your parents aged 25 is not just 'hassle' though, is it?


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## ribbons (20 January 2014)

And it's also the owner who feels good about doing anything other than pts, not the horse.

If the decision is the wrong one, either way, I'd rather it was pts sooner than necessary than keep it alive longer for our own feelings.

I know someone who has a dog with a paralysed hind end. It is taken out to toilet by way of a towel under middle as a sling because only the front legs operate. 
It lies in corner of kitchen annoying her when it barks whilst she's busy or on phone, it barks for various reasons, one being thirsty and couldn't  get to bowl and relied on bowl being brought to it.
When I asked why she didn't put to sleep she said, because he's not in any pain. 
Not in physical pain maybe but must be in mental torture.

Basically she hasn't  got the guts to make the right decision, despite the dogs condition driving her nuts. 

Who's the winner there. Miserable owner, miserable dog.


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## HazyXmas (20 January 2014)

Wagtail said:



			I have a 20 year old and an 18 year old. 

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Don't know how to do a 'smiley face'!! 

You wait till they're 25 & still living at home with their 24 yr old arthritic, SI mare, you might be pleased to see the back of them then 
Everyone's circumstances are different. I'm very lucky that i'm willing & able to keep our horses even when my daughter heads off to Uni in a years time. I'd be pulling my hair out if i had my boys stuck at home because of a horse, but maybe i'm just a mean mummy.


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## Mithras (20 January 2014)

Patterdale said:



			I have a child, but not grown up. I will always teach him that if he has pets, they are his responsibility and it is up to him to make provision for their care if his circumstances change. 
If I found out that my son was planning to have a previously much loved pet killed because he'd gone off it/didn't want the hassle of it, I would be mortified. 
I managed to move out of home with an elderly pony with Cushings without the necessity to have it shot. It's not impossible, or uncommon.
		
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Thank goodness for someone saying this.  I must have been brought up that way too.  I am shocked at the parents who are saying how awful it would be if their children were inconvenienced by having a horse they had got bored with - do they not think there is a greater lesson to be learned in what type of person they are raising?  I don't think encouraging people to throw away animals like an old pair of shoes is to be encouraged.  How sad that its become some kind of radical, extreme viewpoint.



Patterdale said:



			This. 
The sugary language on this thread is really getting quite sick inducing. Say it like it is or don't say it.
		
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The "horses would prefer to be dead than maybe something one day perhaps bad happening to them" line is sad to read.  I prefer the more honest ones.


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## khalswitz (20 January 2014)

The work harder line offends me. I am 22, live with my parents, work a full time job and work in a bar at night, don't drink, don't really go out, don't buy clothes, don't spend money on luxuries. I can comfortably afford my horse, anything he requires incl emergency vet and Physio/chiro/new rugs etc. However, there's no way I would live like this for a horse that was un rideable.

I tend to buy young horses, as then I know they can be sold on, but I wouldn't keep an old, lame horse in the same way I wouldn't keep a young horse that wasn't right for me or doing the job I want it for. The difference is that there are fewer options for an old, unrideable horse, so PTS is further up the list.

My attitude comes from a combination of havin owned lots of horses with old injuries/conformational problems/ mild lameness that I've managed and kept ridden, but that weren't insured for that reason, and the deal with my parents was always that if they went lame, I had to have enough money in my hand to fix the problem, or else PTS. My first horsey job was at a riding school, and whilst if they could they would rehome as a companion or a light hack, if not they were pts - there was no money for horses not working.

So I have quite a utilitarian view on horses. Doesn't mean I don't love them to bits, but they ARENT children, they are animals, and being pts means that the buck ends with me and I know that I have  taken responsibility. I don't have the money for two, an I spend all this money to ride and compete, not for an equine pension fund. 

Equally though, I've never kept a horse from a youngster to the point of retirement. I might feel differently then.


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## Wagtail (20 January 2014)

It's funny how sweet itch is a perfectly manageable problem in a rideable horse, but suddenly becomes a major problem when it's retired. We have one here that has it. He's been her 7 years and it is no big problem to keep him comfortable, so long as he wears his rug in the summer. When I was looking for my latest horse, I went to see a mare with sweet itch. Quite prepared to take her on, except I found she was lame. I would expect to have the price reduced for a horse with sweet itch, but it's not a deal breaker. All the horses here wear fly rugs in the summer.


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## noodle_ (20 January 2014)

Patterdale said:



			I have a child, but not grown up. I will always teach him that if he has pets, they are his responsibility and it is up to him to make provision for their care if his circumstances change. 
If I found out that my son was planning to have a previously much loved pet killed because he'd gone off it/didn't want the hassle of it, I would be mortified. 
I managed to move out of home with an elderly pony with Cushings without the necessity to have it shot. It's not impossible, or uncommon. 



This. 
The sugary language on this thread is really getting quite sick inducing. Say it like it is or don't say it.
		
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it isnt a dog/cat/gerbil though is it? its a horse which cost a  lot of money.....

I would never rehome/pts one of my dog's if they "didnt fit in"....but my dog's are my family  - my life does literally work around them!

the horse however, is not a pet.....and yes if mine was old/unsellable i wouldnt hesitate to pts (i did once.... he was lame though and wasnt viable to keep him for another 10 + years.. paying for a lawn mower...)

so yes - call me horrible/cruel but an old horse with no decent prospects would be pts if mine...there are fate's worse than death....!


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## Patterdale (20 January 2014)

undergroundoli said:



			Living with your parents aged 25 is not just 'hassle' though, is it?
		
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Well what is it then!? Unless her parents are sticking pins in her or putting arsenic in her cocoa it's not really anything more than a hassle or inconvenience, is it??


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## Goldenstar (20 January 2014)

Wagtail said:



			That has really upset me. Poor little mare. It's just heart breaking.
		
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I saw many bad things but that affected me the most so badly I think I knew then I needed to give it up .
I seriously considered going back for her I knew it would be seriously frowned upon and I would have had to give money to a horrible man and my OH would have gone potty she cost me my detachment  that mare .


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## babymare (20 January 2014)

MSR I am neither young or, with 44 years of owning,loaning and working with horses , inexperienced and i have had to face this issue. Whilst my situation differed from OP in some ways I did make that decision for both my horse AND my sake. my life changed very dramatically which i could not have forseen or wished for trust me.yes ideally a horse is for life but sometimes life takes control  But baby had 7 more good happy years with me which she prob wouldnt have had if i hadnt bought her. It is such an emotive subject and not aleays so black and white sadly x


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## HazyXmas (20 January 2014)

Mithras said:



			Thank goodness for someone saying this.  I must have been brought up that way too.  I am shocked at the parents who are saying how awful it would be if their children were inconvenienced by having a horse they had got bored with - do they not think there is a greater lesson to be learned in what type of person they are raising?  I don't think encouraging people to throw away animals like an old pair of shoes is to be encouraged.  How sad that its become some kind of radical, extreme viewpoint.

 Or you could view it that my children were being brought up to be practical & responsible. Far too many horse owners aren't either, which is why we end up with so many old, lame, unwanted horses trawling around the country at low end auctions before being drugged up & mis-sold or ending up at Potters.
		
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## Mithras (20 January 2014)

Wagtail said:



			It's funny how sweet itch is a perfectly manageable problem in a rideable horse, but suddenly becomes a major problem when it's retired.
		
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In the same way you get all these competitive riders who have horses purely to compete on - what sort of level are they competing at that they can simply pts a horse because it goes lame?  I mean, how important is the competition to them?  Are they likely to be selected for World and European teams, or are we just putting a few rosettes before the value of a life?

If you're any good in the horse world, people will get you to ride their horses for them.  If you're not, or you can't be bothered with the hassle, how high is the level you're competing at anyway?


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## amandap (20 January 2014)

Wagtail said:



			It's funny how sweet itch is a perfectly manageable problem in a rideable horse, but suddenly becomes a major problem when it's retired.
		
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Nothing to do with op's decision making but I find this perplexing as well, especially in light of the job v pet thread.
Individual horses basic needs are the same whether retired or working. 

The questions around pts really are, is the horse suffering with no hope of any meaningful recovery/quality of life or is the owner left with no other option surely?
How you ended up in a situation is meaningless to the decision but may well be a stark learning experience!


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## ester (20 January 2014)

Goldenstar said:



			Only in a fully electric fenced paddock and the retirement liverys I know dont stable during the worse times of day  or remove rugs daily , the retirement liverys I know would not be suitable for a sweet itch horse .
		
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^^ this, it can be a pretty high maintenance condition which I don't think most retirement liveries would cater for, in which case your alternative is that the OP potentially stays with her parents, does not get her own family life etc until she is 35? (on the assumption that finances continue to be prohibitive)


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## undergroundoli (20 January 2014)

Patterdale said:



			Well what is it then!? Unless her parents are sticking pins in her or putting arsenic in her cocoa it's not really anything more than a hassle or inconvenience, is it??
		
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Living in the family home means living by family rules, which inevitably get in the way of growing up. While comparing electricity providers, for example, is no fun it is part of becoming an adult that you miss out on if you live at home. It stops you learning to depend on yourself the same way. 

We also don't know how the OP's parents feel about her living at home. They might be really upset about her leaving, but they might be wishing they could go back to being a couple. They could be begging her to stay, or they could be guilting her out, we don't know.


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## MerrySherryRider (20 January 2014)

HazyXmas said:



			Or you could view it that my children were being brought up to be practical & responsible. Far too many horse owners aren't either, which is why we end up with so many old, lame, unwanted horses trawling around the country at low end auctions before being drugged up & mis-sold or ending up at Potters.
		
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But I don't think the OP or anyone else is suggesting drugging the horse and sending it to auction. Being practical and responsible means thinking ahead to the milestones in life. Growing up and wanting to leave home is hardly an unforeseen life event.
 If every young person who left home to go to uni or get their own home, had their horse put down, the livery yards would be empty. 
 My children were taught to take responsibility for the commitments they took on.


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## ester (20 January 2014)

amandap said:



			Nothing to do with op's decision making but I find this perplexing as well, especially in light of the job v pet thread.
Individual horses basic needs are the same whether retired or working. 

The questions around pts really are, is the horse suffering with no hope of any meaningful recovery/quality of life or is the owner left with no other option surely?
How you ended up in a situation is meaningless to the decision but may well be a stark learning experience!
		
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yes but if the horse had a job the OP could sell/loan etc and someone would consider taking on the sweetitch for a rideable horse, fewer wanting to take that on with a retired animal (and we all know the pitfalls of passing them on anyway). Essentially it is much easier to get rid of a horse if finances are problematic if it is younger.


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## khalswitz (20 January 2014)

Mithras said:



			In the same way you get all these competitive riders who have horses purely to compete on - what sort of level are they competing at that they can simply pts a horse because it goes lame?  I mean, how important is the competition to them?  Are they likely to be selected for World and European teams, or are we just putting a few rosettes before the value of a life?

If you're any good in the horse world, people will get you to ride their horses for them.  If you're not, or you can't be bothered with the hassle, how high is the level you're competing at anyway?
		
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I've done the riding other peoples competition horses whilst keeping an unrideable horse going, and when you are working every hour god sends to afford the horse, plus finding time to head to another yard and school/do fitness work with the comp horse becomes a major strain. I do this because I enjoy it - I want a horse to ride and compete, winning irrespective. Not to say I wouldn't try everything treatment wise including long term rest if I think my horse will come sound, but if that's it? No.


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## Ceriann (20 January 2014)

I left my two at my parents for years before i could afford to move them with me - i do now have a house with land but its been a long time coming!  I sometimes wonder if, with hindsight, i would have done things differently - they lived v happily together semi retired during that time but did miss out on the TLC my horses get now.  It was also a lot of responsibility for my mum and i do realise that i was quite selfish - i couldnt keep them myself but wanted to keep them (i got an offer to place one on loan (at a very good place with someone i trusted) but as the two were devoted to each other i couldnt do it). I was very lucky that during that time they were never sick and with decent rugs they lived out.  I would go home generally every other weekend in that time (and holidays would be spent at home) but i cant honestly say anything other than i left my mum to carry the burden (she does however now miss them terribly!).  In your circumstances OP i dont know what i would do - its not easy.  One of my mares is now in her twenties and will have a home with me forever.  Only you know how you will feel/cope with the decision but i know i wouldnt let mine go somewhere else as a companion or loan etc now - as an older slightly arthritic companion mare i wouldnt want to risk where she could end up.


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## Mithras (20 January 2014)

khalswitz said:



			I've done the riding other peoples competition horses whilst keeping an unrideable horse going, and when you are working every hour god sends to afford the horse, plus finding time to head to another yard and school/do fitness work with the comp horse becomes a major strain. I do this because I enjoy it - I want a horse to ride and compete, winning irrespective. Not to say I wouldn't try everything treatment wise including long term rest if I think my horse will come sound, but if that's it? No.
		
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Yes. but competing in any sport is difficult.  Its usually those people who are prepared to make sacrifices who do well in the end.  And you will have developed certain approaches and coping strategies and discipline which will help you when you are competing.  

Perhaps though in the horse world there is a certain element of buying success which you cannot do for instance in athletics.


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## amandap (20 January 2014)

ester said:



			yes but if the horse had a job the OP could sell/loan etc and someone would consider taking on the sweetitch for a rideable horse, fewer wanting to take that on with a retired animal (and we all know the pitfalls of passing them on anyway). Essentially it is much easier to get rid of a horse if finances are problematic if it is younger.
		
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This might come under the owner having no other option?


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## Mithras (20 January 2014)

undergroundoli said:



			Living in the family home means living by family rules, which inevitably get in the way of growing up. While comparing electricity providers, for example, is no fun it is part of becoming an adult that you miss out on if you live at home. It stops you learning to depend on yourself the same way.
		
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Equally, the OP could find that once she leaves home, everything becomes much more achievable, once she is in control of her own life, and that her motivation comes back...


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## Wagtail (20 January 2014)

The thing is, it is perfectly understandable that the OP wants to move out and set up with her boyfriend. I don't think anyone is arguing against that very natural desire. And in this particular case, the mare does not have many options open to her. It is either retirement paid for by the OP, or PTS. The OP said she cannot afford to retire her. Her posts come across that she resents the mare. Her boyfriend does not want her to PTS. Nothing has been said about the view of her mother. Boyfriend thinks she might regret it. Yet strangers who do not know her are urging her to PTS. What if the person who knows her is actually right and she ends up regretting it and being haunted by her decision? 

From the horse's POV it seems like the best outcome would be for her to be retired, but OP is not prepared to do this and so the only solution is to PTS.


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## undergroundoli (20 January 2014)

Mithras said:



			Equally, the OP could find that once she leaves home, everything becomes much more achievable, once she is in control of her own life, and that her motivation comes back...
		
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Absolutely, but the OP can't afford to find out.


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## Billy the kid (20 January 2014)

crazyhorse37 said:



			A horse is for life, not just for when it suits you.  This is something that you need to think about before you buy a horse, no matter whether you were misled.  At some point she still would have got to this age.  Putting her down for your own benefit is totally irresponsible.  When family become a burden we don't give them a meal and 'put them down'.  Sorry, I think that you have to find a solution other than the easy way out above.  Charities are over-run because of people not thinking about the consequences of buying a horse.
		
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Agree 100%


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## HazyXmas (20 January 2014)

Wagtail said:



			The thing is, it is perfectly understandable that the OP wants to move out and set up with her boyfriend. I don't think anyone is arguing against that very natural desire. And in this particular case, the mare does not have many options open to her. It is either retirement paid for by the OP, or PTS. The OP said she cannot afford to retire her. Her posts come across that she resents the mare. Her boyfriend does not want her to PTS. Nothing has been said about the view of her mother. Boyfriend thinks she might regret it. Yet strangers who do not know her are urging her to PTS. What if the person who knows her is actually right and she ends up regretting it and being haunted by her decision? 

From the horse's POV it seems like the best outcome would be for her to be retired, but OP is not prepared to do this and so the only solution is to PTS.
		
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It's already been retired for two years at OP's expense. She can't afford to move out & continue with livery fees i believe?


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## khalswitz (20 January 2014)

Mithras said:



			Yes. but competing in any sport is difficult.  Its usually those people who are prepared to make sacrifices who do well in the end.  And you will have developed certain approaches and coping strategies and discipline which will help you when you are competing.  

Perhaps though in the horse world there is a certain element of buying success which you cannot do for instance in athletics.
		
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Exactly - competing any any sport is difficult enough as it is, without starting out with a lame horse and relying on people's goodness to let you ride their horses. No one will see you ride and therefore invest their time into you if you aren't out doing it, and you can't with a lame horse! Not a case of buying success, but trying your damnedest to succeed, which includes having the right horse for the job.

If it was a horse that, say, loved dressage but refused when jumping, and therefore we were struggling to succeed eventing, how many people would tell me to sell it? With a lame horse, irrespective of age, you have no option to sell. So why limit all your hard work, dreams and ambition because of that?

I understand that not everyone will agree with me, and to be fair if I had my own land and could keep them in a field for their retirement without the expense of livery limiting me to one horse, then sure, I would. But those aren't my circumstances, and why I should then have to stop trying to achieve my dreams doesn't add up to me. I also would never own a horse that I wasn't seeing to myself daily, so one of these stick-em-in-a-field retirement liveries in anathema to me.


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## Mithras (20 January 2014)

Wagtail said:



			The thing is, it is perfectly understandable that the OP wants to move out and set up with her boyfriend. I don't think anyone is arguing against that very natural desire. And in this particular case, the mare does not have many options open to her. It is either retirement paid for by the OP, or PTS. The OP said she cannot afford to retire her. Her posts come across that she resents the mare. Her boyfriend does not want her to PTS. Nothing has been said about the view of her mother. Boyfriend thinks she might regret it. Yet strangers who do not know her are urging her to PTS. What if the person who knows her is actually right and she ends up regretting it and being haunted by her decision? 

From the horse's POV it seems like the best outcome would be for her to be retired, but OP is not prepared to do this and so the only solution is to PTS.
		
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This might be entirely projection on my part, but I get the impression the OP has not had to pay livery fees or travel to do the horse at a DIY yard before, but has always kept her at home. 

There are plenty of people who do so.  Unless the OP is on benefits and the breadline, how can she not find the money to continue to pay for her horse at a cheap DIY yard, or pay someone local to look after her for at home?  Or is it more of a case of can't be bothered?  In which case, I think the OP should give it a go at least, as otherwise she might regret it.

Its not as if loads of horseowners don't face this dilemma - life changes, not everyone has the benefit of keeping horses at home and not livery.


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## Goldenstar (20 January 2014)

I don't think OP ever said she kept her horse at home she did say it cost around £200 a month .


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## ester (20 January 2014)

Seriously Mithras you think anyone who works should have £200 a month spare??


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## Mithras (20 January 2014)

ester said:



			Seriously Mithras you think anyone who works should have £200 a month spare??
		
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You shouldn't enter into horse ownership in the first place if you don't have £200 a month to spare.


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## undergroundoli (20 January 2014)

Mithras said:



			There are plenty of people who do so.  Unless the OP is on benefits and the breadline, how can she not find the money to continue to pay for her horse at a cheap DIY yard, or pay someone local to look after her for at home?
		
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I rather assumed she did keep the mare at the yard, I thought the OP said something about going off to see her. She is in Essex though, so cheap DIY yards are thin on the ground and 24hr turn out even more so.


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## Jesstickle (20 January 2014)

ester said:



			Seriously Mithras you think anyone who works should have £200 a month spare??
		
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THIS EXACTLY

Mithras you are being soo unrealistic it is untrue. When I worked with horses I earned minimum wage and there is NO way I could have afforded £200 a month to run a horse.


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## undergroundoli (20 January 2014)

Wow, cross posted with loads of people. 



Mithras said:



			You shouldn't enter into horse ownership in the first place if you don't have £200 a month to spare.
		
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But given that she has...


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## ester (20 January 2014)

and as said earlier.... situations change...


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## Goldenstar (20 January 2014)

undergroundoli said:



			Wow, cross posted with loads of people. 



But given that she has...
		
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We are all making assumptions here , but if the only reason someone has £200 to keep a horse is because at 25 she and her OH are living in the hotel of mum and dad she does not really have a spare £200 .


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## Flame_ (20 January 2014)

The human comparisons are pointless. We don't put down people so we shouldn't put down horses? Well we don't eat people either so should we not eat animals? We don't sell people so should we not sell animals? We've got a different set of ethics for animals (rightly or wrongly) and as long as we're breeding animals under these terms not the human ones slaughter has to be ok. Unwanted animals have to be slaughtered or wtf else happens to them?

To the people not ok with putting down unwanted horses, are you ok with, say, sheep slaughter? What about all the excess cockerels like mentioned before? I'm ok with putting down unwanted animals of any kind because if I wasn't I'd think myself a hypocrite for enjoying the view of the fields full of happy spring lambs, even though many of their little lives will be short and if you took one home and got to know it it would surely have a charming individual personality.  Unless you are a vegan, you've no moral high ground by claiming that (fairly) healthy horses shouldn't be pts as far as I can see.


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## Jesstickle (20 January 2014)

Flame_ said:



			To the people not ok with putting down unwanted horses, are you ok with, say, sheep slaughter? What about all the excess cockerels like mentioned before? I'm ok with putting down unwanted animals of any kind because if I wasn't I'd think myself a hypocrite for enjoying the view of the fields full of happy spring lambs, even though many of their little lives will be short and if you took one home and got to know it it would surely have a charming individual personality.  Unless you are a vegan, you've no moral high ground by claiming that (fairly) healthy horses shouldn't be pts as far as I can see.
		
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I always ask this question. And everyone usually tells me horses and dogs are different from farm animals? 

Have never had a straight answer from anyone other than vegetarians. Obviously they are different


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## Mithras (20 January 2014)

Flame_ said:



			To the people not ok with putting down unwanted horses, are you ok with, say, sheep slaughter? What about all the excess cockerels like mentioned before? I'm ok with putting down unwanted animals of any kind because if I wasn't I'd think myself a hypocrite for enjoying the view of the fields full of happy spring lambs, even though many of their little lives will be short and if you took one home and got to know it it would surely have a charming individual personality.  Unless you are a vegan, you've no moral high ground by claiming that (fairly) healthy horses shouldn't be pts as far as I can see.
		
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Funny you should ask that, as I can't bring myself to eat lamb.  No problem with people who do, but I just can't eat it.  I don't eat that much at all actually.

Jess_Tickle - the best answer I've had to that dilemma is don't make pets of the animals you want to kill and eat.


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## khalswitz (20 January 2014)

Jesstickle said:



			I always ask this question. And everyone usually tells me horses and dogs are different from farm animals? 

Have never had a straight answer from anyone other than vegetarians. Obviously they are different 

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I don't think so. Even a dog, if my situation were to change and, for example, I had to go into council housing where a pet was not allowed, I would PTS my dog before becoming homeless (and obviously if he wasn't rehomable). However since pet dogs don't work, unlike most horses, rehoming is easier. They are also less expensive, and less time consuming (still need exercise, but no long drive to the yard, mucking out, turn out, ride etc drive back).


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## noodle_ (20 January 2014)

Jesstickle said:



			I always ask this question. And everyone usually tells me horses and dogs are different from farm animals? 

Have never had a straight answer from anyone other than vegetarians. Obviously they are different 

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lambs and cows are raised to eat.... dog's are raised to be my pets/family


if horses were farmed to eat i too would have no issue with this

(im not veggie!!)


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## cptrayes (20 January 2014)

Interesting how people think the PTS option is the trendy one.

In my view is completely the reverse. The new attitude is to treat horses as pets, which are indeed owed a home for all their healthy life, in my opinion.

Trendy is believing a horse is owed a home for life even when it can no longer be ridden, and is not even fit to be a companion.

I had never come across that attitude until I came onto HHO.


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## Jesstickle (20 January 2014)

So an animal raised for meat has less right to life than one raised as a pet? 

Why?

Does it make a difference to the animal? No of course not. 

This is what I mean by a straight answer. Totally illogical to suggest a pet horse has more rights than one raised for meat. They are capable of the same thoughts etc. 

I will never understand people. I really won't.


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## noodle_ (20 January 2014)

Jesstickle said:



			So an animal raised for meat has less right to life than one raised as a pet? 

Why?

Does it make a difference to the animal? No of course not. 

This is what I mean by a straight answer. Totally illogical to suggest a pet horse has more rights than one raised for meat. They are capable of the same thoughts etc.
		
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no...i didnt explain myself very well...


every animal on the planet has a right to live, breathe and be treated with respect - even those going for meat....

as long as they are pts humanely i have no issues....

no less right to life - just the path they are set to go on really....?


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## Mithras (20 January 2014)

Jesstickle said:



			So an animal raised for meat has less right to life than one raised as a pet? 

Why?

Does it make a difference to the animal? No of course not. 

This is what I mean by a straight answer. Totally illogical to suggest a pet horse has more rights than one raised for meat. They are capable of the same thoughts etc. 

I will never understand people. I really won't.
		
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Perhaps that's because you've got a very specific answer in mind that you want them to say?


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## Jesstickle (20 January 2014)

noodle_ this is what I think. Hence me thinking it is ok to PTS any unwanted horse frankly.

I wouldn't chide a farmer for having his cows slaughtered after all as long as it was humane. But so many people make a distinction and for the life of me I will never get it!


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## amandap (20 January 2014)

Putting down pets and especially horses involves lots of ethical and moral decisions and most are very personal to each of us! I don't believe you can compare it to farming.


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## Zebedee (20 January 2014)

cptrayes said:



			Interesting how people think the PTS option is the trendy one.

In my view is completely the reverse. The new attitude is to treat horses as pets, which are indeed owed a home for all their healthy life, in my opinion.

Trendy is believing a horse is owed a home for life even when it can no longer be ridden, and is not even fit to be a companion.


I had never come across that attitude until I came onto HHO.
		
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This.

I just couldn't be bothered to try & make such a complex reply on my phone.


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## Jesstickle (20 January 2014)

Mithras said:



			Perhaps that's because you've got a very specific answer in mind that you want them to say?
		
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I want a logical answer. Because I am a logical person.


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## Jesstickle (20 January 2014)

amandap said:



			Putting down pets and especially horses involves lots of ethical and moral decisions and most are very personal to each of us! I don't believe you a compare it to farming.
		
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But that is only looking at it from a human perspective. And I see no ethical problem other than the ones we construct. If you'd eat a pig you should be happy to shoot a horse surely?

They are only different from the shooter's perspective. From the animal's POV they amount to the same thing do they not?


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## Mithras (20 January 2014)

Jesstickle said:



			I want a logical answer. Because I am a logical person.
		
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In that case, just tell people what you want them to say?

What is it then?


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## Jesstickle (20 January 2014)

Mithras said:



			In that case, just tell people what you want them to say?

What is it then?
		
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I want to know why it is not ok to shoot an unwanted horse but it is ok to kill cattle/pigs/chickens to eat.  From the animal's side the end result is the same. It died to serve a human purpose. So why is one acceptable and one not?


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## noodle_ (20 January 2014)

Jesstickle said:



			noodle_ this is what I think. Hence me thinking it is ok to PTS any unwanted horse frankly.

I wouldn't chide a farmer for having his cows slaughtered after all as long as it was humane. But so many people make a distinction and for the life of me I will never get it!
		
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amandap said:



			Putting down pets and especially horses involves lots of ethical and moral decisions and most are very personal to each of us! I don't believe you a compare it to farming.
		
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this and this - -  i dont think you can compare cows (bred for meat say...) and a horse bred to be a working horse as someones pet/working animal (not actually bred for meat)




so to me the distinction between meat and "pet"...cannot be seen as the same

hope i have made sense in my little head !!


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## Mithras (20 January 2014)

Jesstickle said:



			But that is only looking at it from a human perspective. And I see no ethical problem other than the ones we construct. If you'd eat a pig you should be happy to shoot a horse surely?
		
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I've already answered that above, and I said that you don't make animals you are going to kill and eat your pets, you don't work with them for hours each day, you don't learn their personalities.  Its basic common sense.  The alternative is you see every living animal as your next dinner - if that works for you, then fine, but be aware that some people may have differing ethical standpoints.  We are not cavemen with our existence based on whether we can catch our next dinner, so as the higher species we are afforded that luxury.  Its evolution.


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## Jesstickle (20 January 2014)

Mithras said:



			I've already answered that above, and I said that you don't make animals you are going to kill and eat your pets, you don't work with them for hours each day, you don't learn their personalities.  Its basic common sense.  The alternative is you see every living animal as your next dinner - if that works for you, then fine, but be aware that some people may have differing ethical standpoints.  We are not cavemen with our existence based on whether we can catch our next dinner, so as the higher species we are afforded that luxury.  Its evolution.
		
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But what difference does it make to the animal?

You assume you are the only one who counts in this...


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## Mithras (20 January 2014)

Jesstickle said:



			But what difference does it make to the animal?

You assume you are the only one who counts in this...
		
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Well, it wouldn't make any difference to me either if someone shot me tomorrow, as I would then be dead and would know no more about it.


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## noodle_ (20 January 2014)

Mithras said:



			I've already answered that above, and I said that you don't make animals you are going to kill and eat your pets, you don't work with them for hours each day, you don't learn their personalities.  Its basic common sense.
		
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basically this ^^^ 

my horse is a working animal (suppose for category sake  - pet... i.e i wouldnt eat her!)... as she was bought to work.... if the meat man bought her - shes would have been bought to eat...

that kinda thing.

its not nice but - its the way of the world.


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## Jesstickle (20 January 2014)

Mithras said:



			Well, it wouldn't make any difference to me either if someone shot me tomorrow, as I would then be dead and would know no more about it.
		
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so why chide someone for wanting to humanely destroy a horse then?  As you say, you'd know nothing about it if someone killed you after all.

The horse wouldn't either. 

therefore OP is really not doing much wrong surely?


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## undergroundoli (20 January 2014)

Logically the is no reason not to slaughter a horse like we slaughter cows. 

We are scared of where logic takes us and have areas we act on by feeling to protect our core values from too much logic, and for lots of us that line divides horses from pigs.

Probably because it would make it ok to shoot people with no families and friends if we were too brutally logical about things.


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## Exploding Chestnuts (20 January 2014)

Jesstickle said:



			I want to know why it is not ok to shoot an unwanted horse but it is ok to kill cattle/pigs/chickens to eat.  From the animal's side the end result is the same. It died to serve a human purpose. So why is one acceptable and one not?
		
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My cousins are farmers, but when one jersey cow [the only dairy type cow on a beef farm] was sick..........  because it was a favourite QUOTE "we even sent for the vet" so some animals are special even among beef farmers.
It was living on the farm because it was a present to my God Daughter, it was a birthday present when she was 10! and it lived to the age of 18!!!


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## Mithras (20 January 2014)

Jesstickle said:



			so why chide someone for wanting to humanely destroy a horse then?  As you say, you'd know nothing about it if someone killed you after all.

The horse wouldn't either. 

therefore OP is really not doing much wrong surely?
		
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Because its illogical.  Its a sport, albeit not all people do it competitively, but whatever you do is based on the partnership you build and maintain with your horse.  So logically, if you are the type of person to pts a horse when you get bored with it/lose motivation/it no longer suits your purposes, unless you are a very talented rider, how else are you going to succeed in that sport?

And even if you give up that sport, how are you going to come across to other people as a nice genuine person, if that's the way you treat a horse which you have had for several years?


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## amandap (20 January 2014)

Jesstickle said:



			But that is only looking at it from a human perspective. And I see no ethical problem other than the ones we construct. If you'd eat a pig you should be happy to shoot a horse surely?

They are only different from the shooter's perspective. From the animal's POV they amount to the same thing do they not?
		
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Of course it's all from a human perspective we are all humans! Farmers have already made their decision about producing and killing animals to eat and those animals have to be happy and healthy. I wonder if they view their dogs the same way?

It isn't the same for many humans nor is it the same for farm animals v most large pets who are killed at home. Yes they all end up dead but we humans are the ones making the choices and most of us do see it differently!


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## Wagtail (20 January 2014)

Jesstickle said:



			I want to know why it is not ok to shoot an unwanted horse but it is ok to kill cattle/pigs/chickens to eat.  From the animal's side the end result is the same. It died to serve a human purpose. So why is one acceptable and one not?
		
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Well I don't eat meat because I don't see a difference between horses and dogs and cows, pigs and sheep. But the thing that stopped me eating meat was the guilt I felt every time I saw a lorry packed to the sides with live animals destined for slaughter. The ones on the outside freezing cold in the winter, all of them over heated in the summer. Then to arrive at the abattoir smelling the blood in the air and often being treated inhumanely by some of the workers. I don't see any difference between that and sending a horse for slaughter. Thankfully, most horses are PTS at home and so have a much more humane experience. So actually, I think it is worse sending meat animals to slaughter than shooting a horse at home. I used to love my meat and it took a lot of will power to stop eating it. I especially miss it when eating out, but it's a sacrifice I have to make for my principles.

I am not against eating meat per se, though. I would like to see it made 10 times more expensive, so that people started to appreciate it more and value the animals more (farmers would have more money to enrich their lives). I would also like to see slaughter taking place on the premises or very locally.

But I can understand why people who eat meat still are against killing a horse for convenience. Horses and dogs have become our close companions and it is only human nature to therefore view them differently to animals we haven't had close to our lives.


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## Exploding Chestnuts (20 January 2014)

amandap said:



			Of course it's all from a human perspective we are all humans! Farmers have already made their decision about producing and killing animals to eat and those animals have to be happy and healthy. I wonder if they view their dogs the same way?

It isn't the same for many humans nor is it the same for farm animals v most pets who are killed at home. Yes they all end up dead but we humans are the ones making the choices and most of us do see it differently!
		
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I have worked with farmers for 30 years, and yes they do look at dogs in the same way as we look at horses, in fact they may even have horses!
They usually need working dogs to work.
and often they are used for that alone.
but good dogs are special dogs and are often treated as pets.
Old dogs are not often "put down" but it happens.


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## Jesstickle (20 January 2014)

amandap said:



			Of course it's all from a human perspective we are all humans! Farmers have already made their decision about producing and killing animals to eat and those animals have to be happy and healthy. I wonder if they view their dogs the same way?

It isn't the same for many humans nor is it the same for farm animals v most pets who are killed at home. Yes they all end up dead but we humans are the ones making the choices and most of us do see it differently!
		
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So does that mean it is ok for some people on this thread to be really quite rude to the OP as they have made a different choice? If we accept that from the animal's perspective it is all the same?

That is really what I am driving at I suppose.


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## Mithras (20 January 2014)

Jesstickle said:



			So does that mean it is ok for some people on this thread to be really quite rude to the OP as they have made a different choice? If we accept that from the animal's perspective it is all the same?

That is really what I am driving at I suppose.
		
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I think its a poor strategy for life in general.


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## Parisexx (20 January 2014)

I keep my mare at a livery yard, she costs me more than 200 pound in winter but less in summer so its an average of 200 a month.
I do not want to live at home for another 5/10 years until im 30/35!!! I want a life with my OH . If I could afford the horse and move out it would be a different issue completely.  I am on minimum wage and need the 200 a month to go towards a flat.


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## TarrSteps (20 January 2014)

Goldenstar said:



			I have done the auction thing too although I did not take the horse in the ring .
I touched her nose prayed she had a soft landing and left her in the stable .
I have also had the appalling experiance more than once as a welfare officer of realising with horror the aged horse we where preparing to PTS on extreme suffering grounds was a horse I had known in its competitive prime .
I have seen a mare waiting to go to slaughter wicker and force her way through the group when she saw me at one point her life she had a blonde owner who perhaps dressed and sounded like me .
She haunted me for months .
Bad bad things happen to some old horses .
		
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When I was quite young I went with a boss at the time to deliver a horse we had been sent to try in the riding school. It was lame and badly trained and totally unsuitable but the owner could no longer afford it so she thought that we would take it.

My boss was a super tough, dealer type who never kept "useless" horses around.  Lots of people on here would have found her hard to take. We dropped the horse off at the place the owner told us to, which turned out to be a very low end dealer who mostly collected horses up to be shipped off. There were a couple of horses there already in the pens, fed and sheltered okay, but it was pretty grim. My boss and I cried the whole time, from handing the mare over to putting up the ramp to driving away. When we got back she had a massive rant at her husband about the owner not even having the guts to put the horse down or really see what she had consigned her to. 

On that day I knew is was "okay" to feel awful about that sort of situation, that I would never have to get hardened to it even as I accepted the reality that many horses end their days that way and even worse. (A famous jumper showed up at the same auction house a few years later.) 

If the people who don't agree with my view think I am "happy" to see an old horse put down, think again. If you think I'm happier to see that than it ending its days in a cold, crappy, muddy pen, with the prospect of an uncomfortable journey and an unpleasant end, then yes, I am.


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## amandap (20 January 2014)

Jesstickle said:



			So does that mean it is ok for some people on this thread to be really quite rude to the OP as they have made a different choice? If we accept that from the animal's perspective it is all the same?

That is really what I am driving at I suppose.
		
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I see what you're driving at and I've taken pains not to support, justify reasons or admonish op. In the end it will be her decision but I hope that decision is reached after consideration of practicalities and her own ethical perspective which may be in the light of current pressures on her. We all can only make the best decision we can at the time and not forget to remember that time in hindsight.


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## TarrSteps (20 January 2014)

cptrayes said:



			Interesting how people think the PTS option is the trendy one.

In my view is completely the reverse. The new attitude is to treat horses as pets, which are indeed owed a home for all their healthy life, in my opinion.

Trendy is believing a horse is owed a home for life even when it can no longer be ridden, and is not even fit to be a companion.

I had never come across that attitude until I came onto HHO.
		
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I would agree. I was raised in a much more agricultural setting than I currently live in and horses were put down all the time for reasons that were not strictly to do with their health. Margins were slim and few people felt that every expensive animal deserved to die from natural causes.

To the dog question, even that it completely contextual. I saw a documentary years ago containing an interview with a dog farmer in, I think, Cambodia. He had dogs in cages and he had a pet dog running around his feet. The interviewer was trying to get him to admit the irony of this but he wasn't having any of it. The dog at his feet had one name - like "cow" - and the ones in the cages had another - "beef". It's all in perception.


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## Jesstickle (20 January 2014)

Not you obviously amandap. You are always extremely fair, I hope you didn't read that as meaning  yourself 

I swerve too far the other way. I can't bear people being upset, I tend to always say what is most soothing (although in this instance I would PTS myself, that isn't a lie). I obviously like people more than I think I do!


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## TarrSteps (20 January 2014)

MrsD123 said:



			My cousins are farmers, but when one jersey cow [the only dairy type cow on a beef farm] was sick..........  because it was a favourite QUOTE "we even sent for the vet" so some animals are special even among beef farmers.
It was living on the farm because it was a present to my God Daughter, it was a birthday present when she was 10! and it lived to the age of 18!!!
		
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I used to work for some people who owned a stock yard and had a pet cow! 

They also had a big breeding operation and the owner was very stern about how they never kept any useless animal. Yet his old riding horse had had two colic surgeries and lived a - very overweight - life of leisure, and there were mares in the broodmare band who hadn't had foals for years.

As someone observed the toughest talkers aren't always the cold fish when it comes to their own choices, they are just realistic about the rest of the world.

I will also say these people were very well off. All the animals lived well, their kids had whatever they needed, having old pets cost them very little. I thought it was less sweet. But I though it was a lot less sweet when some other people i worked for made their son give up hockey, which he loves and was very good at, because they made some bad horse choices and would not be sensible, so everyone else had to pay. (Me, the vets, the yard owners . . .all being constantly stiffed and guilt tripped because they couldn't pay for the number of horses they had.)


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## ester (20 January 2014)

I am along the same lines of you Jess - animal doesn't know so it really doesn't matter.


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## Mince Pie (20 January 2014)

Mithras said:



			In that case, I don't think people should buy horses if they do not consider what they will do with them in a few years time, should their circumstances change or the horse become ill or unsound.  I think when you buy any animal, you make a commitment, as the greater species, to look after that animal for its natural lifespan.
		
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OP has already said the mare was older than she thought, perhaps her plan was to buy the horse and then sell it on when she wanted to move out. However, this mare is not saleable so this option is no longer open to her. This mare could live on for another 5-10 years - would you expect her parents to put her and her OH up until she is in her 30's? Would you ask that of your partner as well? I would not.


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## amandap (20 January 2014)

Jesstickle said:



			Not you obviously amandap. You are always extremely fair, I hope you didn't read that as meaning  yourself 

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No I didn't, got waffling and forgot to answer the question! lol Being rude happens on forums when people feel strongly and don't see eye to eye. I don't think it's helpful but can understand why it happens and have been rude myself I'm sorry to say. Sadly these delicate subjects do attract more controversy so I hope op takes what she finds useful/helpful from the thread and files the rest!


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## luckyoldme (20 January 2014)

I have a 23 year old who will cost me a fortune probably over the next few years . I could never imagine putting him down until he no longer has a quality of life. Thats my preference for my horse. If i fall on hard times i will have to make the descision to pts sooner than i would like, but he is 23 he has had a good long life and I would never ever evan consider rehoming him.
Its a very personal descision.......some folk might think im daft after all i could keep a younger saner horse for a fraction if the cost.
If the op has looked after her horse and feels that the time has come for whatever reason to put a 24 year old to sleep then that is her business........ personally though I would nt have left myself open to the obvious onslaught by posting the dilema on here.
My horse, i decide when and i don t have to justify it to anyone.


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## Adopter (20 January 2014)

Parisexx said:



			I keep my mare at a livery yard, she costs me more than 200 pound in winter but less in summer so its an average of 200 a month.
I do not want to live at home for another 5/10 years until im 30/35!!! I want a life with my OH . If I could afford the horse and move out it would be a different issue completely.  I am on minimum wage and need the 200 a month to go towards a flat.
		
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Have you contacted the BHS to talk this over with them yet.  They will be supportive you are proposing to do what they and the equine charities suggest.  A horse that can no longer be ridden does not have to have years of retirement, a short period of quality retirement followed by euthanisia before pain gets worse is a good way to go.

It is hard to have much choice about your lifestyle if you are paid at the minimum wage rate, accept that not everyone will think the same way, that's what makes life interesting.  

Horses are flight animals, they do not show they are in pain until it is really bad, because nature tells them not to appear vulnerable, as someone with painful joints myself, pts is a kind option for your horse.


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## Polos Mum (20 January 2014)

Given it's in the news this week, just an observation that PTS is rather old fashioned rather than trendy.  After WW1 all the horses that managed to survive serving their country through the worst conditions imaginable were shot and fed to the prisoners of war!   To save the cost of shipping them home and locating their previous owners. 

The absolute kindest thing to do would be to continue to pay for her, but equally the 'kindest' thing a lot of us could do is donate all our earning above minimum wage to charity and give up our time with our horses to go our and volunteer for charities - we don't because life has to be a little practical. 
The worst thing you could do is pass her on to an unknown future (likely to be unpleasant given her age/ medical condition) 
So PTS is somewhere in the middle of the two possible extremes. 
Just my personal view.


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## jrp204 (20 January 2014)

Mithras said:



			I've already answered that above, and I said that you don't make animals you are going to kill and eat your pets, you don't work with them for hours each day, you don't learn their personalities.  Its basic common sense.  The alternative is you see every living animal as your next dinner - if that works for you, then fine, but be aware that some people may have differing ethical standpoints.  We are not cavemen with our existence based on whether we can catch our next dinner, so as the higher species we are afforded that luxury.  Its evolution.
		
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We are farmers, we breed pedigree sheep. These sheep probably are handled as much as a young horse, some will be halter broken and will be shown. We put a huge amount of work into the animals, they are all treated with care and respect, should they not make the grade as in being conformationally correct since this will make them un sellable into the breeding market they will be taken to a local abbatoir. No they are not pets they are our living so in my view they are more important. We have had horses for years, my daughter has produced and competed several youngsters, I wouldn't class them as pets either, they had a job to do. Our last mare had an injury 2 weeks after buying her, after 6 months on box rest a second opinion told us she would never become sound, yes she would walk happily and stand in a field, we decided we would advertise her for sale as a broodmare since she had good breeding, if she didn't sell in 6 wks we would PTS. Ok, it may sound heartless but we hear too many horses being sold on as sound when they're not and we were not prepared to put her in this position. We were lucky, a local breeder, 4 miles away saw her advertised and bought her and she will be going to the stallion this year.
I have no problems with people keeping animals as pets, what I have a problem with is people not taking responsibility for their elderly/unsound animals, an animal is for life but we have the responsibility for how long that life is.


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## horsefeed (20 January 2014)

I have an elderly TBx he's 36 and still in light work, my OH occasionally hacks him out. He will never ever be sold and if if came to not being able to afford him he would be PTS, the same with my current although only 7 and a very talented show jumper, if she was human she would be autistic! She can be awkward to handle sometimes danergous, she has fits if something upsets her to the extend she will chuck herself literally on the floor, very similar to spoilt child in a supermarket not getting her own way and I would not risk her with anyone else, if you were to smack or shout at her, it would completely blow her brain and you would have a nutter on your hands very quickly. 
I am a firm believer in owners should take responsiblity on their issues and elderly and PTS at home. Rescue centres are to take in rescues not old horses that no one had the bottle to PTS.


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## cptrayes (20 January 2014)

Mithras said:



			I've already answered that above, and I said that you don't make animals you are going to kill and eat your pets, you don't work with them for hours each day, you don't learn their personalities.  Its basic common sense.  The alternative is you see every living animal as your next dinner - if that works for you, then fine, but be aware that some people may have differing ethical standpoints.  We are not cavemen with our existence based on whether we can catch our next dinner, so as the higher species we are afforded that luxury.  Its evolution.
		
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OK, let's turn this round a bit and talk about milk cows. They are bred for their milk. When they can no longer give enough milk they are slaughtered for the same sort of value as a horse, because the meat is by then old and tough. In fact when BSE was in full swing they were slaughtered and incinerated because they were over thirty months old.

What is the difference between killing milk cows and killing horses that can no longer do their jobs??

Many farmers know all their cows by name, and one I know cries when he has them slaughtered. Tell me the difference between that and a horse?


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## undergroundoli (20 January 2014)

cptrayes said:



			Many farmers know all their cows by name, and one I know cries when he has them slaughtered. Tell me the difference between that and a horse?
		
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Perhaps that no one could financially provide for all the retired dairy cows, but because some are able to retire their horses it changes peoples perceptions?


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## cptrayes (20 January 2014)

undergroundoli said:



			Perhaps that no one could financially provide for all the retired dairy cows, but because some are able to retire their horses it changes peoples perceptions?
		
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Good point.

So it's money, in that case.

Would all you people who drink milk and don't believe in putting horses without a job to sleep be prepared to pay a lot more to give the cows a retirement? And if not, why not?


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## budley95 (20 January 2014)

We put our 18 year old out on loan 5 years ago, but he's still ridden and the loaner has now moved him onto the same yard as me so still see him everyday again!


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## ribbons (20 January 2014)

It was that mare's lucky day when the previous owner lied about her age and sold her to OP. 
she has had several lovely years of good care, the last two in retirement. She could have gone to someone else who would have sold/given her away when they could no longer manage to keep her, in effect passing on the responsibility with no guarantee she would be well cared for, but at least they would feel ok
or even better, set her free out on the moor, where the cold wet winters would do her arthritis the world of good and the midge infested summers would be heaven for a sweet itch horse.

At the end of the day the horse has no idea it is to be pts, it will know nothing and suffer nothing, unlike some of the poor creatures kept going to help the selfish people who own them feel better about themselves. 

OP, it will be a sad day for you, but ignore the nonsense being spouted here and put her to sleep and get on with your life.

I remember having a dog with cancer pts. The vet said, as the dog slipped away. It's days like this I'm so glad I'm a vet not a doctor and I can do this.

We are all dying. It's the quality of life up until that point that counts.


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## cptrayes (20 January 2014)

Mithras said:



			I've already answered that above, and I said that you don't make animals you are going to kill and eat your pets, you don't work with them for hours each day, you don't learn their personalities.  Its basic common sense. .
		
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You don't seem to know a lot about farming Mithras.  I spend time every spring bottle feeding orphan lambs with my farming friends. You don't get closer to an animal than having it suckle from your hand.  Stumpy, whose mother bit off his foot mistaking it for the umbilical cord, was hand reared for six months until he was strong enough to make it on his own. He's far from rare in being an animal destined for meat that farmers get really close to.  The last farmer I saw in tears was regretting the fact that his bull Fine'n'Dandy had sired too many offspring to stay on his farm, but had also become too boisterous for him to feel safe to sell him on except for slaughter.


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## undergroundoli (20 January 2014)

cptrayes said:



			Would all you people who drink milk and don't believe in putting horses without a job to sleep be prepared to pay a lot more to give the cows a retirement? And if not, why not?
		
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Well, I do believe in putting horses to sleep because they are too much for their person and not suitable for sale and I also believe in paying more for meat to finance better welfare for the animals. I don't want to pay for cows to spend a decade in a field though; My income is fairly limited and I'd rather spend it on other things, like riding. 

Perhaps another difference is that finding the space for all the ex-dairy cows and their replacements is more obviously problematic than finding the resources to care for the UK's impressive collection of useless horses.


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## cptrayes (20 January 2014)

budley95 said:



			We put our 18 year old out on loan 5 years ago, but he's still ridden and the loaner has now moved him onto the same yard as me so still see him everyday again!
		
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And I sold a ten year old with spavin to go down to flat ground on the instructions of my vet, and he was starved and I had to plot and spend a lot of money to engineer to buy him back. He never recovered full health, was left with a chronic cough and desperate weaving and I often wished  I'd had him put down instead.

If rather ten like the OPs were shot than have one treated like mine was.


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## cptrayes (20 January 2014)

undergroundoli said:



			Perhaps another difference is that finding the space for all the ex-dairy cows and their replacements is more obviously problematic than finding the resources to care for the UK's impressive collection of useless horses.
		
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Good point.


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## touchstone (20 January 2014)

ribbons said:



			We are all dying. It's the quality of life up until that point that counts
		
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^^^^And this sums it up perfectly.


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## MerrySherryRider (20 January 2014)

cptrayes said:



			Good point.

So it's money, in that case.

Would all you people who drink milk and don't believe in putting horses without a job to sleep be prepared to pay a lot more to give the cows a retirement? And if not, why not?
		
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Best steak a chef (interviewed on radio 4) ever had was a 16 yr old milker in a remote American eating house. 
I drink milk but wouldn't pay for a cow's retirement for the same reason I wouldn't pay for the retirement of someone else's horse. My responsibility is to my animals and anything else I can afford to spare after that goes to the WHW and RSPCA. On a practical level, I have always helped any horses that needed a bit of extra help or a voice on their behalf. 

Next you'll be wanting us to put neoprene wet suits on salmon. I like salmon. On a plate. 

If you buy a horse, you are responsible for its welfare, not everyone else. Don't dump it on rescues and don't have it PTS because it isn't wanted any more. Save euthanasia for the time when the animal is no longer able to enjoy life.


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## undergroundoli (20 January 2014)

MerrySherryRider said:



			I drink milk but wouldn't pay for a cow's retirement for the same reason I wouldn't pay for the retirement of someone else's horse. My responsibility is to my animals and anything else I can afford to spare after that goes to the WHW and RSPCA.
		
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But as a milk drinker (sorry if you are not), you ARE responsible for dairy cows, YOU create the market that brings these animals into being.


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## cptrayes (20 January 2014)

undergroundoli said:



			But as a milk drinker (sorry if you are not), you ARE responsible for dairy cows, YOU create the market that brings these animals into being.
		
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This. Absolutely the point.


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## Parisexx (20 January 2014)

Im going to take some more time to think thanks all x


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## cptrayes (20 January 2014)

MerrySherryRider said:



			don't have it PTS because it isn't wanted any more. Save euthanasia for the time when the animal is no longer able to enjoy life.
		
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Why not?

Why does a nice retirement for a horse take precedence, in your view, over a fulfilling life for the owner???


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## Parisexx (20 January 2014)

anyone know any grass livery in thurrock ? Even then I dnt know if that will be fair on her to live out 24/7 cold wet winter with arthritis and sweet itch in the summer. They would have to electric fence


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## Jesstickle (20 January 2014)

undergroundoli said:



			But as a milk drinker (sorry if you are not), you ARE responsible for dairy cows, YOU create the market that brings these animals into being.
		
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I like you


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## Parisexx (20 January 2014)

Cptrayes thats my point. Its not like I havnt given the horse a retirement.  She has had two years x


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## LaMooch (20 January 2014)

undergroundoli said:



			But as a milk drinker (sorry if you are not), you ARE responsible for dairy cows, YOU create the market that brings these animals into being.
		
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Agree with this. Its supply and demand and if there a demand they have to supply simples


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## cptrayes (20 January 2014)

Parisexx said:



			Cptrayes thats my point. Its not like I havnt given the horse a retirement.  She has had two years x
		
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Quite.  You have done enough, it's time for you and your partner now. Best wishes whatever you decide to do.


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## undergroundoli (20 January 2014)

cptrayes said:



			Why not?

Why does a nice retirement for a horse take precedence, in your view, over a fulfilling life for the owner???
		
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Or that of a cow? Do you think dairy farmers have a moral obligation to plough their 'profits' into providing their cows with a retirement? (genuine question)


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## LaMooch (20 January 2014)

Parisexx said:



			Cptrayes thats my point. Its not like I havnt given the horse a retirement.  She has had two years x
		
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You have given this mare more then what many people would off you have let her enjoy her last few years pain free and that's something we can do for animals (not humans).


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## cptrayes (20 January 2014)

undergroundoli said:



			Or that of a cow? Do you think dairy farmers have a moral obligation to plough their 'profits' into providing their cows with a retirement? (genuine question)
		
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Me? Of course not. I don't think this poster owes the horse any more, never mind any dairy farmer owing their cows a retirement.

For me, the quality of the life and a humane death are what matter entirely with farm animals, and with horses it has to depend on how the individual owner squares it with themself.

What I do wish people who keep their horses in a long retirement would realize is that they do it because it makes them feel good. That does not give them the right to try to impose their own values on people who it does not make feel good to pay out time and money  to keep a retired horse.


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## undergroundoli (20 January 2014)

cptrayes said:



			Me? Of course not. I don't think this poster owes the horse any more, never mind any dairy farmer owing their cows a retirement.
		
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Sorry, I meant to multi quote and ask MerrySherryRider why horses deserve retirement but dairy cows don't.


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## MerrySherryRider (20 January 2014)

undergroundoli said:



			But as a milk drinker (sorry if you are not), you ARE responsible for dairy cows, YOU create the market that brings these animals into being.
		
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Okay, I very much like hazelnut milk or rice milk. So lets not have any cows except in projects to save them from extinction. 

I think you're clutching at straws in desperation to justify the unjustifiable.


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## Cortez (20 January 2014)

MerrySherryRider said:



			I think you're clutching at straws in desperation to justify the unjustifiable.
		
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Well I think CPT is making a hell of a lot more sense than a lot of people.........


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## Jesstickle (20 January 2014)

MerrySherryRider said:



			Okay, I very much like hazelnut milk or rice milk. So lets not have any cows except in projects to save them from extinction. 

I think you're clutching at straws in desperation to justify the unjustifiable.
		
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And I think you are being completely illogical. I think undergroundoli's argument is totally sound. Why is it unjustifiable to PTS a horse but dairy cows are fine? You haven't really answered why one offends and one doesn't. Just washed your hands of the cows completely...


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## cptrayes (20 January 2014)

undergroundoli said:



			Sorry, I meant to multi quote and ask MerrySherryRider why horses deserve retirement but dairy cows don't.
		
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No problem, gave me a chance for a rant 

Over to you MSR


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## MerrySherryRider (20 January 2014)

cptrayes said:



			Me? Of course not. I don't think this poster owes the horse any more, never mind any dairy farmer owing their cows a retirement.

For me, the quality of the life and a humane death are what matter entirely with farm animals, and with horses it has to depend on how the individual owner squares it with themself.

What I do wish people who keep their horses in a long retirement would realize is that they do it because it makes them feel good. That does not give them the right to try to impose their own values on people who it does not make feel good to pay out time and money  to keep a retired horse.
		
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Should no pet owner have a moral obligation to care for their animal ? Would it be ok to have my 2 dogs put down before I go on holiday as it would be cheaper than paying for their care. I could get 2 new ones on my return. Until the next holiday. 
Its doesn't make me feel good to pay out for them when I go away.

ETA. No one is imposes their values on the OP. She asked the question and I bet she wishes she hadn't. She does not find it as simple as some of you do and has some integrity.


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## ribbons (20 January 2014)

Exactly right cptrayes. These people provide retirement because they feel good doing it. That's not the case for everyone. Since the animal has no idea of the alternatives to their situation, providing the end is humane its not about the animal. It's about the owner and what is best for them. 
Sadly, the retirement option is not always the best for the horse, but that doesn't stop some people, because it is best for them.
As I said earlier, better pts too soon a few times than too late once.


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## cptrayes (20 January 2014)

MerrySherryRider said:



			Should no pet owner have a moral obligation to care for their animal ? Would it be ok to have my 2 dogs put down before I go on holiday as it would be cheaper than paying for their care. I could get 2 new ones on my return. Until the next holiday. 
Its doesn't make me feel good to pay out for them when I go away.
		
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My point entirely.

If it would make you feel worse to pay for them while you were on holiday than to have them shot, you'd have them shot.

But it wouldn't. It would make you feel foul. So you won't.


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## amandap (20 January 2014)

ribbons said:



			Exactly right cptrayes. These people provide retirement because they feel good doing it.
		
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Whats wrong with that if the horse is content and looked after appropriately? Whats wrong about feeling good? Surely people buy a horse to feel good in the first place?


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## Jesstickle (20 January 2014)

amandap said:



			Whats wrong with that if the horse is content and looked after appropriately? Whats wrong about feeling good? Surely people buy a horse to feel good in the first place?
		
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Nowt wrong with it unless they feel the need to go round being offensive to people who don't agree with them. Which plenty of them seem to judging from this thread


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## cptrayes (20 January 2014)

amandap said:



			Whats wrong with that if the horse is content and looked after appropriately? Whats wrong about feeling good? Surely people buy a horse to feel good in the first place?
		
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Who said there was anything wrong with it?


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## honetpot (20 January 2014)

Does anyone have any statistic of the amount of TB's that are PTS at the end of their working life aged about 3-4 years plus? In the past a horses working life was relatively short, not many lived into their teens, now its not unusual for a horse to live till they are twenty, which is great if they are doing the job they were bought for but not so good if you bought something to ride and you feel obligated to keep it till its 20+. 
 Basically most domesticated animals are bred because humans want them for a purpose, whether that to eat them, use them for work or they are companion animals. The animal has no concept of the future, in the horses case as long as there is food and sufficient water they would get along with out us, thinking they need us other than to provide the next snack is deluding ourselves. Somewhere in America they have studied a horses responses to cars used in training and they responded like they would to people.
 I do not like horses kept in isolation in stables, this is acceptable to most people and I do not think that most people that do it are uncaring, just that's their management style though choice or circumstances. We make choices for animals all the time, just because its not what do you doesn't mean its wrong.


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## honetpot (20 January 2014)

ribbons said:



			Exactly right cptrayes. These people provide retirement because they feel good doing it. That's not the case for everyone. Since the animal has no idea of the alternatives to their situation, providing the end is humane its not about the animal. It's about the owner and what is best for them. 
Sadly, the retirement option is not always the best for the horse, but that doesn't stop some people, because it is best for them.
As I said earlier, better pts too soon a few times than too late once.
		
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 Any thing you do with an animal usually works out that is that is what is best for the human, whether it lives or dies.


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## undergroundoli (20 January 2014)

MerrySherryRider said:



			Should no pet owner have a moral obligation to care for their animal ? Would it be ok to have my 2 dogs put down before I go on holiday as it would be cheaper than paying for their care. I could get 2 new ones on my return. Until the next holiday. 
Its doesn't make me feel good to pay out for them when I go away.
		
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I believe you have an obligation to ensure your dogs have shelter, food, exercise, company and medical attention, because dogs notice whether these needs are met. I believe that if you can no longer provide it you have a duty to ensure your dogs future, weather by re-homing or PTS. 

I'd be very surprised if anyone put a dog to sleep for a holiday, but I think its better than abandoning them for a fortnight. I'm sure you don't enjoy paying for them while you are away, but I bet you enjoy coming home to them. 



MerrySherryRider said:



			Okay, I very much like hazelnut milk or  rice milk. So lets not have any cows except in projects to save them  from extinction. 

I think you're clutching at straws in desperation to justify the unjustifiable.
		
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I'm fine with cows being killed off because they aren't economically viable. I am part of the market forces that bring this situation into being and I'm happy getting cheapy milk from Fresains and only having Guernseys in rare bread centres. I don't understand why you think horses deserve retirement but cows don't?



Parisexx said:



			anyone know any grass livery in thurrock ? Even  then I dnt know if that will be fair on her to live out 24/7 cold wet  winter with arthritis and sweet itch in the summer. They would have to  electric fence
		
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Sorry OP, can't help.


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## be positive (20 January 2014)

amandap said:



			Whats wrong with that if the horse is content and looked after appropriately? Whats wrong about feeling good? Surely people buy a horse to feel good in the first place?
		
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There is nothing wrong with it provided the owner can afford to keep the horse, if struggling financially to do so considering another option should not make them feel guilty. At the end of the day it is a choice and having kept a horse in retirement for 2 years and now wishing to move on to a new stage of life the OP should not feel awful for considering pts.


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## undergroundoli (20 January 2014)

honetpot said:



			Basically most domesticated animals are bred because humans want them for a purpose, whether that to eat them, use them for work or they are companion animals. The animal has no concept of the future, in the horses case as long as there is food and sufficient water they would get along with out us, thinking they need us other than to provide the next snack is deluding ourselves
		
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So true, both parts.


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## Wagtail (20 January 2014)

At the end of the day, everyone must be comfortable with their own choices. I was uncomfortable with my choice to eat meat and now feel a lot more at peace with myself since I gave it up. But I there are loads more things I could do to be even more at peace with myself, but I choose not to because on balance I am very comfortable with where I personally draw the line, and it is not always logical! We are all human after all. 

The OP asked the question 'What would YOU do?' and people should be able to answer that question without being slated for it. By asking WWYD? There is no right or wrong answer, just a load of opinions on what each person feels comfortable with. So all this logical reasoning is completely irrelevant as people are just saying what THEY would do.

We all have our morals and our values, and hopefully, most of us are comfortable with where we draw the line.


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## amandap (20 January 2014)

cptrayes said:



			Who said there was anything wrong with it?
		
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Perhaps I misread the context? If I did then I see no point in the comment, we'd all rather feel good than bad surely if at all possible?

Be positive, I am not trying to make the op feel bad whatever she decides is up to her!


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## cptrayes (20 January 2014)

amandap said:



			Perhaps I misread the context? If I did then I see no point in the comment, we'd all rather feel good than bad surely if at all possible?
		
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But that IS the point of the comment Amanda. It makes some people feel bad to keep a horse in retirement and have to spend large amounts of time and/or money on it.

Those people should, I believe not be looked down on if they choose to make themselves feel less bad by having the horse put to sleep. And likewise, it is not something to get sanctimonious about if keeping a horse alive makes the owner feel better.


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## Zebedee (20 January 2014)

cptrayes said:



			But that IS the point of the comment Amanda. It makes some people feel bad to keep a horse in retirement and have to spend large amounts of time and/or money on it.

Those people should, I believe not be looked down on if they choose to make themselves feel less bad by having the horse put to sleep. And likewise, it is not something to get sanctimonious about if keeping a horse alive makes the owner feel better.
		
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Nail hit well & truly on the head.

All that matters is that the end (whenever it comes) is humane.

Owners should not be pressured either way unless the animal is at the stage where its welfare is compromised by keeping it alive.

One the decision is made & the deed is done by all mean grieve for your loss, but then move on. All this angst, weeping, wailing & guilt tripping is totally unnecessary IMO. Being able to deal with things in a practical manner doesn't detract from what the animal has meant to you over the years, it does mean that the chances are you'll make the right decision at the right time FOR BOTH OF YOU.


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## khalswitz (20 January 2014)

cptrayes said:



			But that IS the point of the comment Amanda. It makes some people feel bad to keep a horse in retirement and have to spend large amounts of time and/or money on it.

Those people should, I believe not be looked down on if they choose to make themselves feel less bad by having the horse put to sleep. And likewise, it is not something to get sanctimonious about if keeping a horse alive makes the owner feel better.
		
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This this this. It doesn't mean you are a bad person if you don't give your horses a retirement, just that different things are a priority in your life. If you can and want to, great, if not you shouldn't be castigated for it.


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## amandap (20 January 2014)

cptrayes said:



			But that IS the point of the comment Amanda. It makes some people feel bad to keep a horse in retirement and have to spend large amounts of time and/or money on it.
		
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Well, it doesn't make me feel bad to keep a non ridden horse for the same (or less) than a ridden one, so I missed that subtlety in the point.


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## khalswitz (20 January 2014)

amandap said:



			Well, it doesn't make me feel bad to keep a non ridden horse for the same (or less) than a ridden one, so I missed that subtlety in the point.
		
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But some people it does. Especially if you have lost interest in horses and are being held back from moving on with your life because of one?


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## amandap (20 January 2014)

honetpot said:



			Does anyone have any statistic of the amount of TB's that are PTS at the end of their working life aged about 3-4 years plus? In the past a horses working life was relatively short, not many lived into their teens, now its not unusual for a horse to live till they are twenty, which is great if they are doing the job they were bought for but not so good if you bought something to ride and you feel obligated to keep it till its 20+.
		
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I was just pondering how many think all sport horses who don't make the grade should be pts... just in case? Many end up neglected or passed from pillar to post.


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## be positive (20 January 2014)

amandap said:



			Perhaps I misread the context? If I did then I see no point in the comment, we'd all rather feel good than bad surely if at all possible?

Be positive, I am not trying to make the op feel bad whatever she decides is up to her!
		
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I was not implying you were trying to make to OP feel bad, it is a personal choice but some have made their feelings very clear to the point where they are making a hard decision even harder, if it makes some people feel good to keep retired horses that is great, I have kept mine but realise it is not so easy if finances are stretched. 
It is not always possible to take on extra work, move to cheap areas and the other suggestions that have been made so that one horse can live a few years longer, I think the OP is probably regretting starting this thread as her head must be far more confused than it was before, whatever she does will make her feel guilty in some way.


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## amandap (20 January 2014)

khalswitz said:



			But some people it does. Especially if you have lost interest in horses and are being held back from moving on with your life because of one?
		
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I understand that! Just stating my position!


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## Inthesticks (20 January 2014)

Its close to my heart, and I think the OP is in a difficult position but I could never PTS in her situation. Just my opinion.


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## Mithras (20 January 2014)

Parisexx said:



			Cptrayes thats my point. Its not like I havnt given the horse a retirement.  She has had two years x
		
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Yes, at least you have given the horse a retirement. And she is in her twenties.

Personally I couldn't do it, and im glad im not in the situation where I have to, but I do find it hard to fathom people who are out competing their horses one month and the next month they are dead, and not due to any sudden onset catastrophic condition either.


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## Wagtail (20 January 2014)

Mithras said:



			Yes, at least you have given the horse a retirement. And she is in her twenties.

Personally I couldn't do it, and im glad im not in the situation where I have to, but I do find it hard to fathom people who are out competing their horses one month and the next month they are dead, and not due to any sudden onset catastrophic condition either.
		
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I know. I find it strange too. I particularly hate it when a person has had a lot of good years out of a horse and then as soon as it can't do it's job it is shot. Usually with the old 'he would never be happy retired' quote. Yeah, you keep telling yourself that.


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## dunkley (20 January 2014)

The OP obviously does care about her horse, because A) she is struggling to make the decision and, B) she hasn't merely advertised it on Projects, Cheapies and Freebies as a 'companion' or, heaven forbid, a broodmare.

If the horse were saleable, I'm sure she would find it a suitable, appropriate home.  As it is, the horse _isn't_ saleable, for various reasons, and therefore she is considering what *I* believe to be the most caring and responsible course of action.  It doesn't make it an easy choice, but I can understand why she would do it, and support her in that.  I have done similar. 

However much you love a horse, it is still a _horse_ and keeping it at the expense of everything else is, IMO, unacceptable.  The decision is no one's business but the OP's, and no one should make her feel bad if she makes The Decision.


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## Mithras (20 January 2014)

Parisexx said:



			Cptrayes thats my point. Its not like I havnt given the horse a retirement.  She has had two years x
		
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Wagtail said:



			I know. I find it strange too. I particularly hate it when a person has had a lot of good years out of a horse and then as soon as it can't do it's job it is shot. Usually with the old 'he would never be happy retired' quote. Yeah, you keep telling yourself that. 

Click to expand...

Well yes. Not relevant to the OP, but I was told by a once very well known showjumper, now an in demand coach, that so many horses in their teens come right again with a decent break in the field. Obviously not all, but how stupid it must be to miss even another good 18 months on a decent horse, when it costs so much to buy one you click with, because on paper it seems a good idea to pts asap.


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## MissCandy (20 January 2014)

OP, it doesn't really matter what anyone says as the only person who has to live with the decision is you.

So all I will say is, make sure you have made peace with it BEFORE you go through with it as believe me if you think it's hard enough to make the decision, carrying it through is a million times harder.  

The only obligation you have as a pet owner is to ensure that the animal does not suffer from your decision.  

I personally would think less of a person who dumps their horse on 'retirement livery' or re-homes (including selling) to an uncertain future as it really is just passing the buck which is not fair on the horse or the person who (sometimes) unwittingly finds themselves the fall guy.


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## Clare85 (20 January 2014)

I wonder how this thread would've gone if op had said "I've lost my job and have no means of caring for my elderly arthritic mare, I am considering pts as I don't feel her future would be secure if I passed her on"? This girl's life is effectively on hold (as well as her oh's) because she is having to pay for this mare. She is not getting enjoyment out of her and is probably resenting her because she is unable to progress her life. I understand the position the op is in absolutely.

Ideally, yes, we would all have endless funds and acreage to enable us to retire and care for our retired horses and ponies forever more - unfortunately this just unrealistic. Life changes, life moves on, and sometimes difficult and heartbreaking decisions have to be made in order for that to happen. If the pony was useful, very few people would have an issue with the mare being sold on to another home. This would still effectively be "getting rid".

OP, if you pts this mare, I for one would understand why. It will not be easy and you may well carry guilt for it in years to come. On the other hand, how will you feel in 10 years time if she is still going and you are still living with your parents? Will your oh wait that long? How will your parents feel about that? 

IMO there are much worse fates for a horse than the bullet - and your mare unfortunately falls into the category of those who would be likely to meet that worse fate if passed on. She has had nice years with you, a caring home in her twilight years - more than many can hope for.

Good luck with whatever you decide op.


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## Zebedee (20 January 2014)

amandap said:



			I was just pondering how many think all sport horses who don't make the grade should be pts... just in case? Many end up neglected or passed from pillar to post.
		
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One of the bigger studs in Germany will breed about 400 foals a year. On average 200 of them will be culled (killed) as yearlings, & only about 50 will make it as far as being broken in, & of those 50, 20 might make it in to competition. An Irish stud does something similar, & any mares who throw foals with inherited problems  like poor conformation would also be culled because as far as the breeders are concerned they must not be bred from as they are producing inferior stock which could tarnish the reputation of their bloodlines. 
I don't like this any more than anyone else on here will, but it happens, & I doubt things will ever change at that level.


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## LaMooch (20 January 2014)

dunkley said:



			The OP obviously does care about her horse, because A) she is struggling to make the decision and, B) she hasn't merely advertised it on Projects, Cheapies and Freebies as a 'companion' or, heaven forbid, a broodmare.

If the horse were saleable, I'm sure she would find it a suitable, appropriate home.  As it is, the horse _isn't_ saleable, for various reasons, and therefore she is considering what *I* believe to be the most caring and responsible course of action.  It doesn't make it an easy choice, but I can understand why she would do it, and support her in that.  I have done similar. 

However much you love a horse, it is still a _horse_ and keeping it at the expense of everything else is, IMO, unacceptable.  The decision is no one's business but the OP's, and no one should make her feel bad if she makes The Decision.
		
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Well put. Completely agree with this post


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## Luci07 (20 January 2014)

LaMooch said:



			Well put. Completely agree with this post
		
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As do I. Very easy to judge behind the safety of a keyboard but how hard it must be when you work out money and know how tied you are. 

Good luck OP in whatever you do.  I applause you looking at your options..there are more and most posts coming up now on FB showing starved horses. Whatever happens, you have spared your mare that end.


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## Wagtail (20 January 2014)

MissCandy said:



			So all I will say is, make sure you have made peace with it BEFORE you go through with it as believe me if you think it's hard enough to make the decision, carrying it through is a million times harder.
		
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Agree with this. I don't understand when people saying that making the decision is the hardest bit. For me, going through with it was far harder. But only with my latest mare as she was my horse of a lifetime and I loved her to bits. Others have been sad but I was spared any form of guilt as they were medical emergencies and just a complete release for the horse. When a horse is relatively perky, you can feel like a murderer, even if you know they have no future, as was the case for my mare.


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## Swirlymurphy (20 January 2014)

Clare85 said:



			I wonder how this thread would've gone if op had said "I've lost my job and have no means of caring for my elderly arthritic mare, I am considering pts as I don't feel her future would be secure if I passed her on"? This girl's life is effectively on hold (as well as her oh's) because she is having to pay for this mare. She is not getting enjoyment out of her and is probably resenting her because she is unable to progress her life. I understand the position the op is in absolutely.

Ideally, yes, we would all have endless funds and acreage to enable us to retire and care for our retired horses and ponies forever more - unfortunately this just unrealistic. Life changes, life moves on, and sometimes difficult and heartbreaking decisions have to be made in order for that to happen. If the pony was useful, very few people would have an issue with the mare being sold on to another home. This would still effectively be "getting rid".

OP, if you pts this mare, I for one would understand why. It will not be easy and you may well carry guilt for it in years to come. On the other hand, how will you feel in 10 years time if she is still going and you are still living with your parents? Will your oh wait that long? How will your parents feel about that? 

IMO there are much worse fates for a horse than the bullet - and your mare unfortunately falls into the category of those who would be likely to meet that worse fate if passed on. She has had nice years with you, a caring home in her twilight years - more than many can hope for.

Good luck with whatever you decide op.
		
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Very good post.


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## jrp204 (20 January 2014)

Zebedee said:



			One of the bigger studs in Germany will breed about 400 foals a year. On average 200 of them will be culled (killed) as yearlings, & only about 50 will make it as far as being broken in, & of those 50, 20 might make it in to competition. An Irish stud does something similar, & any mares who throw foals with inherited problems  like poor conformation would also be culled because as far as the breeders are concerned they must not be bred from as they are producing inferior stock which could tarnish the reputation of their bloodlines. 
I don't like this any more than anyone else on here will, but it happens, & I doubt things will ever change at that level.[/QU

More breeders should use this system, it is no different to what breeders of pedigree farm stock have being doing for years apart from in this country the culled animals (horses) have no real value. There are too many inferior animals being bred from and too much indiscriminate breeding.
		
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## khalswitz (20 January 2014)

Mithras said:



			Well yes. Not relevant to the OP, but I was told by a once very well known showjumper, now an in demand coach, that so many horses in their teens come right again with a decent break in the field. Obviously not all, but how stupid it must be to miss even another good 18 months on a decent horse, when it costs so much to buy one you click with, because on paper it seems a good idea to pts asap.
		
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Sorry amandap, I wasn't implying you hadn't understood, just backing up the point.

There is a difference between trying everything (including long term rest) to get your horse sound again, and accepting funding an indefinite retirement for a horse that may live 10 more years and prohibit you moving on. I've given horses a year's rest before, sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. If the horse is still completely unrideable, even if it is not in pain, it goes, I'm afraid. I'm not prepared to fund ten years in a field.


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## luckyoldme (20 January 2014)

I suppose like a lot of things it depends if you are a realist or an idealist.
Im a realist.


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## luckyoldme (20 January 2014)

And i am 46 if it was a choice between pts my 23 year old horse or move back in with my mother someone get me a gun now!


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## undergroundoli (20 January 2014)

luckyoldme said:



			And i am 46 if it was a choice between pts my 23 year old horse or move back in with my mother someone get me a gun now!
		
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For yourself, the mother or the horse?


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## LaMooch (20 January 2014)

undergroundoli said:



			For yourself, the mother or the horse?
		
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Lol I'd say my mother


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## honetpot (20 January 2014)

I had a imported Belgium draft horse, bought over to make up a lorry load. I was talking to a dealer telling them what a good temperament he had and his comment was,' if they are no good they eat them'.


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## luckyoldme (20 January 2014)

undergroundoli said:



			For yourself, the mother or the horse?
		
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The horse........if that doesnt work then me.


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## MotherOfChickens (20 January 2014)

Zebedee said:



			One of the bigger studs in Germany will breed about 400 foals a year. On average 200 of them will be culled (killed) as yearlings, & only about 50 will make it as far as being broken in, & of those 50, 20 might make it in to competition. An Irish stud does something similar, & any mares who throw foals with inherited problems  like poor conformation would also be culled because as far as the breeders are concerned they must not be bred from as they are producing inferior stock which could tarnish the reputation of their bloodlines. 
I don't like this any more than anyone else on here will, but it happens, & I doubt things will ever change at that level.
		
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I know of a stud in another European country whereby every mare that they don't keep for breeding is culled and that decision is mostly made at weaning.  They don't sell mares ever. When I first heard this 10/11 years ago I was pretty shocked but it was explained to me that they really value their mares and it makes sense. Obviously, their culture is to not castrate males but they are graded for breeding and their horses are very highly regarded. I don't know if this is still true for this stud but was told it by the owner.


I have an older pony, he was a long term loan sort of dumped on me. Owner told me to have him shot if he was of no further use. He's healthy atm and I can't bring myself to do it, having had to have an 11 yo PTS last year. But he takes up a stable, doesn't really have a job anymore, is hard to manage in the summer and could go on another ten years easily given his breed! Thats a lot of trims, wormers, hay and bedding! 

I would not try and rehome him in the current economy, although I have mulled it over, nor will he have a lot of money spent on him if something was to happen. And if having him means less resources for the other two at any point I will do the deed. This pony suffered at low end sales rings from weaning until he was 4yo and its probably what ruined him from being an easy pony-I'd not risk doing it to him again in his old age. I am very fond of him so won't risk him.


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## Spring Feather (20 January 2014)

Parisexx said:



			anyone know any grass livery in thurrock ? Even then I dnt know if that will be fair on her to live out 24/7 cold wet winter with arthritis and sweet itch in the summer. They would have to electric fence
		
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Everyone seems to be so busy arguing about what they would do that it seems no-one has answered your question.  I have no idea where Thurrock is so I can't answer that part for you, however I have lots of retired horses living on my farm and all of them live outside 24/7/365 in temperatures from -40 to +40 and they deal with it all quite happily.  Being out is far better for horses such as yours which only has mild arthritis.  Sweet itch rugs are available and work well for in the summer and in winter a good turnout rug will keep the oldie warm.  I don't know how much grass livery is in your part of the UK but it's most likely cheaper than 200 pounds a month.

And in answer to the moral dilemma you have and asking for others options, I'd look after my old horse in the best way I could.  There is plenty of time to live the life I might want later.


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## Parisexx (20 January 2014)

Thurrock is in essex, areas such as aveley grays tilbury etc x


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## Spring Feather (20 January 2014)

Interesting that a couple of you mention culling in equine breeding programs in Europe meaning the animals are killed.  That's not the usual meaning over here.  Most horse breeders here have culls every once in a while, it means they remove that horse from their breeding program and find it something else to do, generally they're backed and sold or sold cheaply as youngsters.


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## Jesstickle (20 January 2014)

Parisexx said:



			Thurrock is in essex, areas such as aveley grays tilbury etc x
		
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Deleted as better said privately!


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## undergroundoli (20 January 2014)

Is a horses potential and temperament particularly obvious at weaning?


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## kerrieberry2 (20 January 2014)

I have a 29yr old mare, whose recently been diagnosed with cushings which is costing me an extra £135 a month to treat, she's not been ridden for a year and im still living at home at 31, I wouldn't consider putting her down so I could move out!  I work a full time job, I've spent the last 3 yrs at college doing hairdressing, so spend a lot of evenings and weekends doing hair so that I can save the money for a deposit on a house!  but my girl has been with me for 13 yrs and I wouldn't put her down so I could move out!  any guy I've been with has always been aware that they come 2nd to my horses


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## Spring Feather (20 January 2014)

undergroundoli said:



			Is a horses potential and temperament particularly obvious at weaning?
		
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Of course it is lol!  You can tell very early on whether a foal is broodmare or stallion prospect.


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## kerrieberry2 (20 January 2014)

Spring Feather said:



			I don't know how much grass livery is in your part of the UK but it's most likely cheaper than 200 pounds a month.
QUOTE]
I'm in an expensive area and have 3 on a farm, with the use of 8 stables and plenty of grazing and a bit shelter and I pay £200 a month for that!  so you can defo get grass livery for much less
		
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## undergroundoli (20 January 2014)

Spring Feather said:



			Of course it is lol!  You can tell very early on whether a foal is broodmare or stallion prospect.
		
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They just look so gangaly, judging the confo it'll have as an adult seems like a skill that would be a bit of a dark art.


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## crazyhorse37 (20 January 2014)

As to living out 24/7 there is a lady in Devon who is a grand prix dressage rider.  She believes in natural horse management and thinks any horse can live out unrugged 24/7.  I've seen her horses and they all look healthy and happy.  This may be taking it a little far, but with a good rug I think most horses can live out all year round.  Mine is a very hairy, good doer and lives out for almost all the year.  She would be fine out all year round (and in her field there are all sorts including TB's also out for the same times) but they insist we bring in to save the grass.  They only come in for the overnight and for just 3 months of the year.  We do have a small herd that are out all year and they are all elderly and live out most of the year rugless.  Again all fine.  I think as long as they have trees/ bushes/ field shelters the horses actually prefer to be out in the elements.  I'm sure there are plenty of finer horses out there who would struggle, especially if they have lived in all their lives, but at the end of the day horses are horses and were designed to live out, often in very harsh conditions.  So with management most horses are very happy out all year  Hope this answers the question about being out?  My mare has arthritis and she is definitely better when she is out all day.  She gets a bit stiff in the mornings when she has been stuck in all night.


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## Spring Feather (20 January 2014)

kerrieberry2 said:



			I'm in an expensive area and have 3 on a farm, with the use of 8 stables and plenty of grazing and a bit shelter and I pay £200 a month for that!  so you can defo get grass livery for much less
		
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Ye I was sure I'd seen people talking about the costs they pay being much less than 200 a month.  Thanks.


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## Jesstickle (20 January 2014)

undergroundoli said:



			They just look so gangaly, judging the confo it'll have as an adult seems like a skill that would be a bit of a dark art.
		
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Breeders are pretty good at knowing pretty early on! After all most of them have seen hundreds of foals grow up to get their eye in


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## Spring Feather (20 January 2014)

undergroundoli said:



			They just look so gangaly, judging the confo it'll have as an adult seems like a skill that would be a bit of a dark art.
		
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No, not really.  The ones who have stallion/broodmare potential stand out quite easily.  No different to seeing the potential riding discipline a foal shows excellence in at a very young age.  You watch them move and evaluate their conformation.


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## zigzag (20 January 2014)

My daughter has a 12 hand pony, pony supposed to be 17 but I think older, chances are she will have another 6/7 years on her ( daughter is nearly 3) I doubt in 7 years time I can afford two ponies, pony will be about 27, difficult to rehome .. ( Do I PTS pony or tell my daughter she can't have another pony til this one is gone ...  theoretically of course as daughter may no longer like riding.


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## Flame_ (20 January 2014)

Spring Feather said:



			Interesting that a couple of you mention culling in equine breeding programs in Europe meaning the animals are killed.  That's not the usual meaning over here.  Most horse breeders here have culls every once in a while, it means they remove that horse from their breeding program and find it something else to do, generally they're backed and sold or sold cheaply as youngsters.
		
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That's what I thought "culls" meant in the breeding sense. I don't see why they would have to be destroyed just because they're not of a standard for breeding, unless they're so badly conformed they'd be unlikely to stand up to another job. Aren't just about all of our riding horses breeding culls, or have I got that completely wrong?


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## Spring Feather (20 January 2014)

Flame_ said:



			That's what I thought "culls" meant in the breeding sense. I don't see why they would have to be destroyed just because they're not of a standard for breeding, unless they're so badly conformed they'd be unlikely to stand up to another job. Aren't just about all of our riding horses breeding culls, or have I got that completely wrong?
		
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Well if you've got it wrong about the meaning in Europe, so have I lol!  I was under the impression that a huge amount of breeding culls from WB studs in Europe are the WB horses that end up in the UK as riding horses.  I know a few breeders in Germany and they don't kill their undesirables, they just sell them as riding horses.


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## cptrayes (20 January 2014)

Spring Feather said:



			And in answer to the moral dilemma you have and asking for others options, I'd look after my old horse in the best way I could.  There is plenty of time to live the life I might want later.
		
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For a twenty five year old who wants to commit to a home with her partner, get that home established and then maybe have children, this horse could scupper those plans if it lives another five years.


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## Spring Feather (20 January 2014)

cptrayes said:



			For a twenty five year of who wants to commit to a home with her partner, get that home established and then maybe have children, this horse could scupper those plans if it lives another five years.
		
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If money is still so tight in 5 years then I'd imagine children will not be on the OPs agenda.


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## cptrayes (20 January 2014)

Spring Feather said:



			If money is still so tight in 5 years then I'd imagine children will not be on the OPs agenda.
		
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Well they certainly won't if she keeps this horse and all the medical bills that are likely to be in store as it gets old!


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## Exploding Chestnuts (20 January 2014)

undergroundoli said:



			They just look so gangaly, judging the confo it'll have as an adult seems like a skill that would be a bit of a dark art.
		
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Its not a dark art, its what everyone who breeds should have as a given. It is a lot easier when one is working with them every day and not seeing one foal once in a blue moon.
The best foal of the year from a stud is often obvious within a few weeks of birth, because it is "outstanding"


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## Spring Feather (20 January 2014)

cptrayes said:



			Well they certainly won't if she keeps this horse and all the medical bills that are likely to be in store as it gets old!
		
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Really?  And how many old horses in their 20s, 30s and 40s have you kept?  I have had loads and only a couple of them have ever needed the odd supplement and certainly not 'all the medical bills' that you are implying.


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## cptrayes (20 January 2014)

kerrieberry2 said:



			I have a 29yr old mare, whose recently been diagnosed with cushings which is costing me an extra £135 a month to treat, she's not been ridden for a year and im still living at home at 31, I wouldn't consider putting her down so I could move out!  I work a full time job, I've spent the last 3 yrs at college doing hairdressing, so spend a lot of evenings and weekends doing hair so that I can save the money for a deposit on a house!  but my girl has been with me for 13 yrs and I wouldn't put her down so I could move out!  any guy I've been with has always been aware that they come 2nd to my horses
		
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Do you think that there might be a possibility that you are unconsciously using your horse as an excuse to avoid committing to an adult relationship and grow up and leave home?

Your situation seems rather extreme to me, still at home at 31 because of a horse.


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## cptrayes (20 January 2014)

Spring Feather said:



			Really?  And how many old horses in their 20s, 30s and 40s have you kept?  I have had loads and only a couple of them have ever needed the odd supplement and certainly not 'all the medical bills' that you are implying.
		
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I've seen my friends spend hundreds/into thousands a year a year on stuff like Cushings medication, eye drops for sunken eyes, Bute for arthritis etc


I have so far avoided keeping horses into old age, and have now made a decision to sell my eleven year old this autumn for the same reason. He is not a horse who I would want to owe a retirement to.


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## Exploding Chestnuts (20 January 2014)

kerrieberry2 said:



			I have a 29yr old mare, whose recently been diagnosed with cushings which is costing me an extra £135 a month to treat, she's not been ridden for a year and im still living at home at 31, I wouldn't consider putting her down so I could move out!  I work a full time job, I've spent the last 3 yrs at college doing hairdressing, so spend a lot of evenings and weekends doing hair so that I can save the money for a deposit on a house!  but my girl has been with me for 13 yrs and I wouldn't put her down so I could move out!  any guy I've been with has always been aware that they come 2nd to my horses
		
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A bit off topic, or maybe not, but can anyone really save enough cash to buy a house by doing hairdressing......... I thought it was about £15k to £30K for a deposit nowadays. 
What about the horse, I liked to make time to pamper my horse, and in return for all the costs I get would pleasure, its not much pleasure to go out on a dark wet night, tramp through a muddy field and throw some hay at him, then change and go and do someone's hair.


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## amandap (20 January 2014)

MotherOfChickens said:



			I know of a stud in another European country whereby every mare that they don't keep for breeding is culled and that decision is mostly made at weaning.  They don't sell mares ever. When I first heard this 10/11 years ago I was pretty shocked but it was explained to me that they really value their mares and it makes sense. Obviously, their culture is to not castrate males but they are graded for breeding and their horses are very highly regarded. I don't know if this is still true for this stud but was told it by the owner.
		
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Out of interest do you know what did they do/did with all the colts and older stallions who failed grading? Surely they didn't all pass?


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## Goldenstar (20 January 2014)

It was a fairly open secret that culled foals / yearlings  ended up in Ireland .
Cattle where shipped to Germany foals got shipped back years ago before microchipping passports etc .


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## zigzag (20 January 2014)

zigzag said:



			My daughter has a 12 hand pony, pony supposed to be 17 but I think older, chances are she will have another 6/7 years on her ( daughter is nearly 3) I doubt in 7 years time I can afford two ponies, pony will be about 27, difficult to rehome .. ( Do I PTS pony or tell my daughter she can't have another pony til this one is gone ...  theoretically of course as daughter may no longer like riding.
		
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Il quote my own post, no comments on this then?


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## amandap (20 January 2014)

Goldenstar said:



			It was a fairly open secret that culled foals / yearlings  ended up in Ireland .
		
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That doesn't surprize me and perhaps then went (back?) to UK as Irish horses if not slaughtered for meat? lol


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## undergroundoli (20 January 2014)

MrsD123 said:



			A bit off topic, or maybe not, but can anyone really save enough cash to buy a house by doing hairdressing......... I thought it was about £15k to £30K for a deposit nowadays. 
What about the horse, I liked to make time to pamper my horse, and in return for all the costs I get would pleasure, its not much pleasure to go out on a dark wet night, tramp through a muddy field and throw some hay at him, then change and go and do someone's hair.
		
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Depends where you live and if you are happy taking on a 90-95% mortgage when interest rates are definitely going to go up.


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## MotherOfChickens (20 January 2014)

amandap said:



			Out of interest do you know what did they do/did with all the colts and older stallions who failed grading? Surely they didn't all pass?
		
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colts that they weren't interested in keeping were sold as 2/3 year olds as riding horses, this is a breed whereby the mares traditionally aren't ridden, although they are sometimes driven but they are graded for breeding. Colts are run on in herds until three and they start work. I am sure they wouldn't sell/keep anything on for that long that wasn't worth it, filly or colt. It wasn't typical of this breed, just one of the largest, oldest breeders. This stud is centuries old, I think they know their horse flesh, their horses are still worth good money and are prized out there.

I know the difference between breeding culls and culls-they definitely meant shot as I asked, I was quite shocked. (and fwiw I think I know the stud that zigzag was referring to as a friend visited and came back with similar info) but this stud was attempting to keep value on their lines. I am also not condoning it exactly but I can see the potential value in it.


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## Adopter (20 January 2014)

zigzag said:



			Il quote my own post, no comments on this then?
		
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With a Mum to support it is perfectly possible that your daughter maybe ready for a second pony in 4 or 5 years, and that you will have the contacts to loan first pony.

I think good first ponies are probably easier to loan out than an unrideable 25year old horse!

However, you are right moving children on to new ponies when they outgrow a current one is an emotional rollercoaster!


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## Goldenstar (20 January 2014)

amandap said:



			That doesn't surprize me and perhaps then went (back?) to UK as Irish horses if not slaughtered for meat? lol
		
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I assume people bought them as ISH .


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## Spring Feather (20 January 2014)

zigzag said:



			My daughter has a 12 hand pony, pony supposed to be 17 but I think older, chances are she will have another 6/7 years on her ( daughter is nearly 3) I doubt in 7 years time I can afford two ponies, pony will be about 27, difficult to rehome .. ( Do I PTS pony or tell my daughter she can't have another pony til this one is gone ... theoretically of course as daughter may no longer like riding

Il quote my own post, no comments on this then?
		
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Old childrens ponies who know their job and are fantastic at it never have any problem finding their next rider.  Most that I know are never sold, they're just loaned onto the next family with a tiny tot.  Usually PC word of mouth goes a long way.


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## Queenbee (21 January 2014)

Well, I've no idea what turn this thread took after I stopped reading the first page complete with ops initial posts.  But all I can say is urgh, I find ops thread and attitude incredibly distasteful.


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## Exploding Chestnuts (21 January 2014)

She does not have an attitude, she has a problem, and has had advice, there are no perfect lives and no one is perfect but we all try our best.


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## Roasted Chestnuts (21 January 2014)

BBH said:



			CPtrays why can't you add anything of value instead of putting down everyone who says something you don't agree with.
You come across as a miserable old bint.
		
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God that's rich coming from you with a past history of doing the same 

Op I have an elderly horse he's 23 has arthritis but is still rideable, he is on Loan to a lovely friend for her daughter which right now as I'm I able to work or care for him is a blessing. I am also another who is stuck at home living with parents sure to circumstances and low earnings.

I could afford him on full wage and working but I would be unable to save not afford a place of my own, so I am resigned to being here until he is called over rainbow bridge or until my circumstances at work change (going back to uni) so I feel your pain, horses do not know the next day is coming, it is us humans who contemplate such things not animals yes I'm one that won't put down on a whim but I would rather PTS my old boy than try to permanently regime or sell him.

I'm sure you will so what's best for you your OH and your mare.

Take care


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## undergroundoli (21 January 2014)

Queenbee said:



			Well, I've no idea what turn this thread took after I stopped reading the first page complete with ops initial posts.  But all I can say is urgh, I find ops thread and attitude incredibly distasteful.
		
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You missed among many other things people saying it would be better to turn the horse loose on the moors. Crazy. 

What if she PTSd her mare, but started donating the cost of keeping an Egyptian horse to Prince Fluffy Karem every month? Would the stay at home till horse dies of natural causes brigade find that morally acceptable? Her horse would have been sent to rainbow bridge none the wiser after two years of well cared for retirement but OP could get on with her life and an Egyptian horse could have some of its suffering alleviated. 

OP, I'm not suggesting you do this. You certainly don't need to justify your actions to a bunch of internet people and besides I think you would be doing your duty by your horse if you sent her to sleep.


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## Patterdale (21 January 2014)

undergroundoli said:



			. 

What if she PTSd her mare, but started donating the cost of keeping an Egyptian horse to Prince Fluffy Karem every month? Would the stay at home till horse dies of natural causes brigade find that morally acceptable? Her horse would have been sent to rainbow bridge none the wiser after two years of well cared for retirement but OP could get on with her life and an Egyptian horse could have some of its suffering alleviated. 
.
		
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Eh?? Isn't the whole point that the OP doesn't want to pay for the cost of a horse?
What a bizarre post...


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## undergroundoli (21 January 2014)

Patterdale said:



			Eh?? Isn't the whole point that the OP doesn't want to pay for the cost of a horse?
What a bizarre post...
		
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A months keep of an Egyptian horse would cost a fraction of the cost of keeping a horse here.


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## Jesstickle (21 January 2014)

Patterdale said:



			Eh?? Isn't the whole point that the OP doesn't want to pay for the cost of a horse?
What a bizarre post...
		
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It's a hypothetical Patts. Not an actual suggestion

As in, if one horse dies but another gets a chance is it then ok? Or does the OP's horse _ specifically _ have to be the one that stays alive and has the money spent on it just because it is the OP's horse. Isn't any horse a horse at the end of the day? Why single one out over another?


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## ester (21 January 2014)

Spring Feather said:



			If money is still so tight in 5 years then I'd imagine children will not be on the OPs agenda.
		
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Apart from the fact that you can get financial help with children, others don't seem to see horses in the same way though!


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## Mithras (21 January 2014)

Jesstickle said:



			As in, if one horse dies but another gets a chance is it then ok? Or does the OP's horse _ specifically _ have to be the one that stays alive and has the money spent on it just because it is the OP's horse. Isn't any horse a horse at the end of the day? Why single one out over another?
		
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More of a general comment, but its all just a game of random chance, isn't it?  As in most of life.  Horses are dependent on who comes into their lives, who buys them, etc and therefore luck as to whether they will be cherished and loved.  I don't ride for a job - I did once, and I chose to make a career in a field which allows me to keep horses as my hobby (leaving home at 18 to do so), hence for me a very hard hearted attitude towards horses doesn't work for me.  For instance, if my young horse went lame and could never be ridden again, I would still keep him for his natural lifespan, because I've come to realise that you get more out of horses than just competing them.  Likewise, an older horse gives an awful lot of pleasure.  This from someone who competes BS all year round, most weekends!  But I'm fortunate enough to be in a position to afford more than one horse.

As for the posts from some of the pro-pts-ers - its not my duty to make someone feel good about their choice, or to suppress my views so that they don't feel guilt.  Its not something I would do myself, in general I don't think the attitude of treating animals as disposable when they are inconvenient is a good one - whether that be a dog, or a cat, or a horse.  And I think these things should be said because there is an increasing tendency out there for people to acquire horses and then blame the horse and get rid of it in all sorts of ways, rather than spending more time thinking about whether they should buy a horse in the first place.

I'm not saying this to the OP - I think someone who has given an older horse a couple of years of a decent retirement is not really in that more callous category.  I still couldn't do it myself though and I'm so glad I'm not the OP having to make such a decision.


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## amandap (21 January 2014)

Mithras said:



			Its not something I would do myself, in general I don't think the attitude of treating animals as disposable when they are inconvenient is a good one - whether that be a dog, or a cat, or a horse.  And I think these things should be said because there is an increasing tendency out there for people to acquire horses and then blame the horse and get rid of it in all sorts of ways, rather than spending more time thinking about whether they should buy a horse in the first place.
		
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As a general comment I 100% agree with this. Problem is the attitude of the whole of society towards animals needs to change!


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## TarrSteps (21 January 2014)

amandap said:



			As a general comment I 100% agree with this. Problem is the attitude of the whole of society towards animals needs to change!
		
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I agree as well, but would point on that it HAS changed dramatically.  Not that long ago this would have been a ridiculous discussion and, for many people, even a conversation about going out of your way to care for an ill child or old person would have raised eyebrows.  I suspect this is still true in many parts of the world.  Someone who is struggling to feed their family on a daily basis is not going to be having too many conversations about their beloved pet's retirement.  The debate over horses being beaten until they fall over dead and left in the gutter is not that long in the past! ("Black Beauty", a book now most consider a sort of horror story/self evident tale, was written as a polemic in the fight for changes in animal welfare laws and very much reflected the reality of the day.)

In some ways, I suspect the change IS the problem!  Many people now see it as their "right" to have any pet they want because it gives them pleasure. (I do not think this is the case with the OP, just following along to the above comments.)  They give little thought to what will happen if the best case scenario does not play out and they end up with a horse that needs more than they can give it.  I think this it true across the spectrum to a varying degree. Insurance has not helped this as people now assume their only health cost will be the insurance premium, which is a) not true and b) only covers a narrow part of what a horse that "isn't working out" might need.  So you end up with quite a high proportion of people with "useless" horses because they have fully bought the dream or horse ownership and not been too troubled by the reality.  (Although you would think a quick trawl through HHO would set anyone straight!)  In that way I agree with Mithras entirely - more thought going in would save a lot of tears down the line.  But, in my experience, horse people are optimists (delusional?) by nature.


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## Perfect_Pirouette (21 January 2014)

:Walks in..................and then straight out again:

Oh.My.God. I have been on this forum a long ol' time but this thread is honestly one of the worst I've seen.

Yet again the sanctimonious, holier than thou attitudes of the posters in NL (sorry, the Tack Room) have shone through. 

Don't worry OP- I too have been smacked with the moral stick in here.

Please do what is best for your mare. Unless you can be confident of a secure and happy future for her if you do pass her on, then please don't. 

Good luck! x


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## khalswitz (21 January 2014)

amandap said:



			As a general comment I 100% agree with this. Problem is the attitude of the whole of society towards animals needs to change!
		
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The thing is, generally I agree with this too. 'Getting rid' shouldn't be the easy, first option, and certainly it's not the horse's fault 9.9/10. However if everything else has been tried, and you have a horse that just isn't right for you, whether young, old, lame or sound, then keeping it and sacrificing all else is like staying in a bad relationship because of the kids - not good for you, or ultimately them. Unfortunately, some horses you can't sell - and I don't think in that scenario PTS should be cried down as evil.

Some people care more about that individual horse than their riding or anything else going on in their life - if they have the resources, then I admire those people for keeping those horses going. For me, a lame horse is a choice between riding, or giving up riding, as my resources don't allow for both, and my love of horse riding in general is greater than any individual horse. So for me, if the horse doesn't fit the job, then it is sell, or if unsellable, PTS. 

However I do think time and effort should be put into making the 'relationship' work before giving up. Trying to get a horse sound and rideable, trying out a new career, taking the work level down etc. But ultimately if it's not right, it's not right.


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## touchstone (21 January 2014)

I also believe that the easy availability of horses is the crux of the matter.   

 I cringe when I see totally non horsey novices buying a horse with no real concern about future costs and commitments.  When I worked as an instructor there were always those who thought their child was ready for a pony to keep at home after just a few lessons, or riders would view horses to buy that were totally unsuited to their abilities.

It seems to be the same with all material goods now too, when we got married in the distant past everything was second hand, and my son was six months old before we managed to afford a stair carpet.  We had to make do and mend and have what we needed, not what we wanted.   I waited until my children were seven and nine before buying my current horse, and made sure that it was a true family type that would never have to be sold; seventeen years on and we still have her.  

I have seen my daughters acquaintances go out and get an ex racing tb, simply because it was cheap and they fancied riding, but once the work and financial commitment hit them and an unrideable horse, it would be dumped on a dealer.

I have to say that I've seen this with experienced owners too, who overstock simply because there is a cheap horse available or they make a pity buy and then struggle financially to support them all and it puts all their horses at risk.


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## amandap (21 January 2014)

khalswitz said:



			The thing is, generally I agree with this too. 'Getting rid' shouldn't be the easy, first option, and certainly it's not the horse's fault 9.9/10. However if everything else has been tried, and you have a horse that just isn't right for you, whether young, old, lame or sound, then keeping it and sacrificing all else is like staying in a bad relationship because of the kids - not good for you, or ultimately them. Unfortunately, some horses you can't sell - and I don't think in that scenario PTS should be cried down as evil.
		
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Neither do I. Every individual situation is different and the only person able to come to a decision is the owner.
Asking for advice or opinion on a public forum is bound to illicit conflicting views and more general discussion but op must remember none of us are there in her situation.


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## TarrSteps (21 January 2014)

I think the discussion is worth having though, even if it irritates people.  Important ideas DO irritate people. 

It's quite possible that forums like this do encourage/enable people who buy horses when they probably shouldn't but then maybe they should pay a role in underlining the sometimes harsh reality that GETTING the horse is the easy part.  How often are there questions on here from 16 or 17 year olds, flush with money from a first "proper" job, feeling they can now (most likely still living at home) afford their own horse.  A year later they're back, wondering what to do with the horse when they enter higher education and/or want to leave home.  Maybe a few of them will read a thread like this are clue in to what they REALLY will be signing up for.


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## Honey08 (21 January 2014)

It would be nice to think that Tarrsteps, but it seems that for every thread like this there are ten "I'm going to uni and think I can afford a horse if I stay at home..." threads, with loads of people saying "do it, do it, do it!" to them.


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## TarrSteps (21 January 2014)

Honey08 said:



			It would be nice to think that Tarrsteps, but it seems that for every thread like this there are ten "I'm going to uni and think I can afford a horse if I stay at home..." threads, with loads of people saying "do it, do it, do it!" to them.
		
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Absolutely!  More reason for people who have learned from bitter experience to speak up!  You aren't going to save them all but even one or two having a rethink is progress.


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## Goldenstar (21 January 2014)

This definatly a debate worth having .
I just hope the progress has not upset OP to much , her excess of honesty about what she is feeling has really got us going .
When I was first got going with horses ( my parents were not horsey ) I had horsey mentors in the village including a old army officer who was endlessly patient with me and older kids from more horsey families  a couple of local hunting farmers they all nudged my mum in the right direction after I got my first pony ( I learnt at a great old fashioned riding school ) .
I not sure that happens for many people today a shame because if you are a grand prix dressage rider or a adult learning to ride with no more desire than to hack a mentors are a great thing.


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## EstherYoung (21 January 2014)

OP, please have a chat with your vet and with the BHS helpline - they will be able to give you impartial advice and support.

For what it's worth, over the last couple of years we've made 'the decision' for four of our oldies. It has been a heartbreaking time. I'm confident that we got the timing exactly right for three of them, but one I guess was 'too early'. We weighed up the retirement home options (money wasn't the issue)  but figured that moving him from the field where he'd lived happily for the last few years was too much disruption for an old boy, for the sake of a year or so extra, when he had a few niggling health issues and arthritis was encroaching.

I know people say rather a day too early than a day too late, but I'll tell you now a day too early hurts like hell when they look so ruddy well.

I do feel guilt. One heck of a lot of guilt. But I also feel relief. Relief that he went calm and happy, in the field that he knew, with his friends around him, with the sun on his back and a belly full of good grass, rather than in the middle of winter in distress because he'd colicked or choked (his teeth were on the way out). I feel relief that he hasn't had to cope with the minging weather we've had recently and all the sloppy mud (he would have abscessed, he always did when the weather turned). I feel relief that he didn't have to cope with a new herd at his age, when he could have lost his 'top' position and got bullied. Our vet fully supported our decision and the reasons for it.

Take care of yourself, OP, and your mare. There are no right decisions in your situation, so you need to find the one that is 'least wrong' that you feel you can live with. Kudos to you for not wanting to pass her on. Respect also to your OH for supporting you and not putting pressure on you - it sounds like he is a keeper.


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## Wagtail (21 January 2014)

EstherYoung said:



			I know people say rather a day too early than a day too late, but I'll tell you now a day too early hurts like hell when they look so ruddy well.
		
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This is SO true. I think on paper I got it exactly right with my mare, but the day she went she was not suffering. She was marching up and down in the roped off bit in front of her stable block. Watching me intently in the house. Full of vigour, gleaming coat, bright eyes... I had fought against laminitis and had got her sound again and she'd been enjoying full turnout in the field. But then she re did a tendon injury which would have meant several months box rest and even after that, I could never have risked her in the field again as the vet said the next time she did it could be catastrophic. That coupled with the fact that she would be on box rest on a very restricted diet due to her laminitis, meant that she soon would not be the happy perky mare I knew and loved. So when I decided to end her life it felt too soon in a way, but my head told me it was right. It still hurts like hell.


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## PolarSkye (21 January 2014)

Perfect_Pirouette said:



			:Walks in..................and then straight out again:

Oh.My.God. I have been on this forum a long ol' time but this thread is honestly one of the worst I've seen.

Yet again the sanctimonious, holier than thou attitudes of the posters in NL (sorry, the Tack Room) have shone through. 

Don't worry OP- I too have been smacked with the moral stick in here.

Please do what is best for your mare. Unless you can be confident of a secure and happy future for her if you do pass her on, then please don't. 

Good luck! x
		
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This.  Honestly, what a load of "holier than thou" drivel there is on this thread.  OP, in your shoes I would PTS . . . but it is, ultimately, your decision .

P


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## ridefast (21 January 2014)

There. Is. Nothing. Wrong. With. P.T.S.


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## Roasted Chestnuts (21 January 2014)

PolarSkye said:



			This.  Honestly, what a load of "holier than thou" drivel there is on this thread.  OP, in your shoes I would PTS . . . but it is, ultimately, your decision .

P
		
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Like much


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## Janah (21 January 2014)

I am so glad I took the decision with my boy to be PTS with no one other than my vet.  he had been head shaking due to teeth.  He had had several treatments and more could have been done at rather large expense, which may or may not have worked with more teeth going the same way.

He was in extreme pain, biting the walls of his stable and anything else he could get his teeth into, including me, and he was the kindest boy.  He was dangerous to stay in the stable with at times, as he didn't know 'what to do with himself'. He would trample anyone in the way.

He had also spent 5 months on box rest for an annular ligament strain and was cushings.  At 22 yrs of age I called it a day.

That was 9 months ago, I still miss him.  I still have all of his tack, rugs etc, can't bear to part with it.

Only one person took me to task over PTS and made it quite clear I should have put him through whatever treatment the vet could offer.

I however have no longer a problem with my neck, shoulder and hip. (I am an older rider).

I have longer to spend with my dogs and OH.

Money was not the issue.  I had however spent thousands on previous horses in the past sorting out behaviour and medical issues and swore I wouldn't go down that road again.

I, in an ideal world would love to have my boy back,m but only if his quality of life was good.  He was only 22 yrs old and I had been owned by him for 12 years.

For the OP do what is right for you, ignore the rest. Arthritis is bad enough, horses are very stoic and cope with low grade pain, but why should they. sweet itch can be very painful and stressful, imagine being itchy for long periods of time and no way of relieving it.

we have duty of cAre
 for our animals and if that means PTS, then so be it.


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## Janah (21 January 2014)

Sorry about grammar done on ipad


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## WelshD (21 January 2014)

I think the OP's mistake was to post so generally hoping that the PTS idea they had would be confirmed and their concience eased

Had they worded it differently I think they would have had a lot more people on side

I personally would PTS rather than pass on to someone else. I think its unrealistic to expect this particular person to have a big change of heart re staying at home and keeping the horse for years


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## amandap (21 January 2014)

I would never jump up and down advising pts, or not, over the internet to someone I have never met and whose situation I have no real idea of. It's far too complex a decision in most cases. It may be black and white for some on Fora but not for me I'm afraid.


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## Wagtail (21 January 2014)

That's what I don't get. Why are people so ready to shout PTS, often even before the OP mentions it? They don't know the horse, and they don't know the person. We are talking about taking a life here. It may be the right thing to do, it maybe the wrong thing. The fact is that no one but the OP knows for sure. So I find all the calls to PTS just flippant. One thing I keep mentioning, but no one seems to consider, is that the person she is closest to (her OH) thinks she will regret it. She has said so herself. I guess if people have never known what it feels like to regret having an animal PTS it does not occur to them that it can actually affect some people very deeply and for a long time.

OP what you must remember is that you asked people what THEY would do, and so there are no right and wrong answers here. I hope that reading the experiences of people on both sides of the fence, it will help you in some way to decide what is right for you and your mare.


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## Magicmillbrook (21 January 2014)

I wouldn't condemn you for putting her to sleep, it would be the responsible thing to do in your situation, the horse will know nothing about it.


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## ester (21 January 2014)

I think people are more saying that it is t wrong to PTS a horse under these circumstances rather than jumping up and saying do it. Obviously others disagree too.


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## Queenbee (21 January 2014)

undergroundoli said:



			You missed among many other things people saying it would be better to turn the horse loose on the moors. Crazy. 

What if she PTSd her mare, but started donating the cost of keeping an Egyptian horse to Prince Fluffy Karem every month? Would the stay at home till horse dies of natural causes brigade find that morally acceptable? Her horse would have been sent to rainbow bridge none the wiser after two years of well cared for retirement but OP could get on with her life and an Egyptian horse could have some of its suffering alleviated. 

OP, I'm not suggesting you do this. You certainly don't need to justify your actions to a bunch of internet people and besides I think you would be doing your duty by your horse if you sent her to sleep.
		
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If op made decision to PTS, then personally I think that's fine and acceptable.  I'm no stranger to the idiotic mentality of some people who think its acceptable and suitable to turn loose on the moors and have and always will flip my lid at such imbeciles, shocking suggestion.

My personal feelings are that to say one is bored with horses, has an oh who isn't horsey and wants to shirk any and all responsibility because of the above and wanting to move in with oh is pretty disgusting.  In my opinion you take on a responsibility for a life, you do not then just decide that it doesn't suit you for the above reasons (not morally anyway). I completely agree, that my or anyone else's judgement on on ops reasonings do not matter, they are just points of view, but for what it's worth, unless the op is willing to respect that mare and go out and find a forever home at a sanctuary for this mare (which given the current equine situation nationally is unlikely) she should PTS, at home and treat this mare with love, respect and dignity.


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## Wagtail (21 January 2014)

OP did not even mention PTS but immediately got a call to PTS followed by lots of people agreeing. This went on for several pages with only a couple of people saying not to do it (and one making a stupid suggestion that she'd turn her horse loose on the moor, but I think we all agree that that is wrong). Only later did some more people say that actually they wouldn't PTS and then the debate started.


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## marmalade76 (21 January 2014)

If an owner chooses to PTS it's nobodies' business but their's and they shouldn't have to justify themselves to anyone.


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## DJ (21 January 2014)

3 years ago today i made the call to PTS my youngster .... he had been poorly, and his quality of life was compromised .. He had nose dived again, and my vet gently told me enough was enough .... yet i was vilified for that decision as i made the mistake of sharing it online .... thank fully i had a lot of support, and though i miss him dearly it was the right thing to do FOR HIM.

OP ... that is what it comes down to, what is best for your mare, and only you know her enough to make that call x


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## Wagtail (21 January 2014)

marmalade76 said:



			If an owner chooses to PTS it's nobodies' business but their's and they shouldn't have to justify themselves to anyone.
		
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But I don't think the OP has even once said she wants to put the horse to sleep. This was suggested by other HHO members. I agree that PTS is the business of the owner, though of course, once it is posted about on an open forum you can hardly complain if others discuss it.


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## Spring Feather (21 January 2014)

People will do whatever they decide to do in the end.  The OP asked for opinions and everyone gave theirs.  The vast majority said they would PTS their horse in that situation.  Only a small handful said they wouldn't have their horses PTS.  OP will do what she wants in the end.  

I have a problem with those suggesting that anyone who does not have the same opinion as them should be branded with some derogatory term.  There is nothing 'holier than thou' in not killing a horse who is still ticking along quite happily, it's simply a choice that some of us would not consider doing.  I value life I'm afraid.  Greatly.  Including the lives of my old horses.  I won't see any of my animals suffer, however I also have no intention of killing them before they are ready to go.  I also have a problem with some members on this forum making horses conditions sound FAR worse than the OP says.  In this particular scenario the OP has stated the horse has arthritis, obviously mild as the horse is on no medication.  Arthritis is a manageable condition, as is sweet itch.  The way some posters have described the horse you'd think it was crippled and on deaths door.

OP do what you want with the horse.  No one can tell you what to do.  Make your own mind up about what's best, just like we all would were it one of our horses.


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## Mithras (21 January 2014)

marmalade76 said:



			If an owner chooses to PTS it's nobodies' business but their's and they shouldn't have to justify themselves to anyone.
		
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In that case, why are there so many threads about it on here?

If people must put their horses to sleep and tell themselves what a good job they are doing, do other people really have to hear about it and the constant discussion of the relative merits of various ways of doing so?

There is a search function after all.

I always think there is quite a high incidence of Munchausen's by Proxy amongst horse owners, and pts is the ultimate manifestation for some.


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## Spring Feather (21 January 2014)

Mithras said:



			I always think there is quite a high incidence of Munchausen's by Proxy amongst horse owners, and pts is the ultimate manifestation for some.
		
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I think you are absolutely spot on!  My husband and I have discussed this very thing numerous times.


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## doriangrey (21 January 2014)

Spring Feather said:



			People will do whatever they decide to do in the end.  The OP asked for opinions and everyone gave theirs.  The vast majority said they would PTS their horse in that situation.  Only a small handful said they wouldn't have their horses PTS.  OP will do what she wants in the end.  

I have a problem with those suggesting that anyone who does not have the same opinion as them should be branded with some derogatory term.  There is nothing 'holier than thou' in not killing a horse who is still ticking along quite happily, it's simply a choice that some of us would not consider doing.  I value life I'm afraid.  Greatly.  Including the lives of my old horses.  I won't see any of my animals suffer, however I also have no intention of killing them before they are ready to go.  I also have a problem with some members on this forum making horses conditions sound FAR worse than the OP says.  In this particular scenario the OP has stated the horse has arthritis, obviously mild as the horse is on no medication.  Arthritis is a manageable condition, as is sweet itch.  The way some posters have described the horse you'd think it was crippled and on deaths door.

OP do what you want with the horse.  No one can tell you what to do.  Make your own mind up about what's best, just like we all would were it one of our horses.
		
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I totally agree with this.  If you ask you might not get the answer you like.  Everyone has their own conscience to deal with, what might be right for some might not be right for others but ultimately the decision and consequences lie with you alone.


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## Wagtail (21 January 2014)

Like the one whose horse went lame on Christmas eve, never even saw a vet and was dead by NYE with a tribute thread complete with photographs. But was well enough to have a hooly in the field.


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## Goldenstar (21 January 2014)

Mithras said:



			In that case, why are there so many threads about it on here?

If people must put their horses to sleep and tell themselves what a good job they are doing, do other people really have to hear about it and the constant discussion of the relative merits of various ways of doing so?

There is a search function after all.

I always think there is quite a high incidence of Munchausen's by Proxy amongst horse owners, and pts is the ultimate manifestation for some.
		
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Well I  would never feel the need a WWYD on this subject because I am very clear about the steps I take when I make this desision .
I did however post after I PTS CF after his last outburst but that was more I was alone and a bit shell shocked by the whole affair .
But to some people I can understand why a process like one of these threads might you find your way forward ,a search of the subject is perhaps not the same as typing down where you are at.


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## Goldenstar (21 January 2014)

Wagtail said:



			Like the one whose horse went lame on Christmas eve, never even saw a vet and was dead by NYE with a tribute thread complete with photographs. But was well enough to have a hooly in the field.
		
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Tbh Wagtail we PTS one and did not need the vet to tell us we where stuffed .
We did get the vet who confirmed it was a catastrophic injury with very little chance of recovery and no chance of soundness ,I did not need the vet to tell me that and knew that the year in stable it would have taken would have been no option for a twenty yo with bone spavin.


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## khalswitz (21 January 2014)

Mithras said:



			In that case, why are there so many threads about it on here?

If people must put their horses to sleep and tell themselves what a good job they are doing, do other people really have to hear about it and the constant discussion of the relative merits of various ways of doing so?

There is a search function after all.

I always think there is quite a high incidence of Munchausen's by Proxy amongst horse owners, and pts is the ultimate manifestation for some.
		
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This makes me very sad. I am all up for discussion, and I can at least see things from your point of view - but accusing all of us who PTS horses instead of giving them a long retirement of being mentally ill is a bit ridiculous.

I do the best I can for my horses - to a point. I have never actually HAD to follow through on my knowledge and decision to PTS an unrideable horse - I've always bought youngish horses, and either sold on, or I've PTS'd on welfare grounds (as in, colic, broken leg, still obviously lame in the field after six months type welfare grounds). I've only had one horse go unrideably lame, and thankfully I was in the situation that his previous owner (who I kept in touch with), who loved him like a pet but was scared to ride him, immediately said she'd have him as a companion/field ornament as the pressure was off to ride him, and she could just enjoy him. HOWEVER I'm being honest in that, if left with no reasonable options for recovery (even enough to do a different job for someone else), I would PTS an unrideable horse.

This doesn't mean I go around inventing reasons to put my animals down, or don't try my best to aid recovery (with long term rest if need be). But in my situation, an unrideable horse precludes me enjoying a hobby that I spend thousands and thousands of pounds a year to enjoy.


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## Wagtail (21 January 2014)

Goldenstar said:



			Tbh Wagtail we PTS one and did not need the vet to tell us we where stuffed .
We did get the vet who confirmed it was a catastrophic injury with very little chance of recovery and no chance of soundness ,I did not need the vet to tell me that and knew that the year in stable it would have taken would have been no option for a twenty yo with bone spavin.
		
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But you are very experienced and knowledgeable.


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## Dusty85 (21 January 2014)

This topic comes up a lot on here- it always provokes the same response- those that say they would rather pts then pass an old horse on, and those who seem horrified by this idea. Again and again it comes up, and again and again it ends up in argument and name calling. 

I think a few things are clear: 

It is up to the OP and the OP alone what happens to this horse. 

Horses are an expensive hobby and in todays economic climate it may not always be suitable to keep them, even when they are old. 

Some people who take on elderly horses as happy hackers/companions are genuine, and unfortunately as demonstrated by Buddysmum- others are not. 

At the end of the day- as long as no harm/abuse comes to the horse and it does not suffer then does it matter? Surely we all agree on that? 

For what its worth- I have always been a realist on these matters- It would break my heart more to know that Id passed my horse onto someone who caused them suffering, rather then Id put them down a few years early. But hey- feel free to call me a callous cow!


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## LaMooch (21 January 2014)

Dusty85 said:



			This topic comes up a lot on here- it always provokes the same response- those that say they would rather pts then pass an old horse on, and those who seem horrified by this idea. Again and again it comes up, and again and again it ends up in argument and name calling. 

I think a few things are clear: 

It is up to the OP and the OP alone what happens to this horse. 

Horses are an expensive hobby and in todays economic climate it may not always be suitable to keep them, even when they are old. 

Some people who take on elderly horses as happy hackers/companions are genuine, and unfortunately as demonstrated by Buddysmum- others are not. 

At the end of the day- as long as no harm/abuse comes to the horse and it does not suffer then does it matter? Surely we all agree on that? 

For what its worth- I have always been a realist on these matters- It would break my heart more to know that Id passed my horse onto someone who caused them suffering, rather then Id put them down a few years early. But hey- feel free to call me a callous cow!
		
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Very well put and true


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## dogatemysalad (21 January 2014)

Mithras said:



			I always think there is quite a high incidence of Munchausen's by Proxy amongst horse owners, and pts is the ultimate manifestation for some.
		
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My vet said exactly that just the other day. He smiled wryly and said rather than calling a vet every 5 minutes for an imagined illness, they should ride the bloody things.

 Having caught up again with this thread, thank goodness for the sensible posts from Spring Feather, Tarr Steps and others.


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## Goldenstar (21 January 2014)

dogatemysalad said:



			My vet said exactly that just the other day. He smiled wryly and said rather than calling a vet every 5 minutes for an imagined illness, they should ride the bloody things.

 Having caught up again with this thread, thank goodness for the sensible posts from Spring Feather, Tarr Steps and others.
		
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So you would rather an inexperienced owner just cracked on with a horse they thought was not right rather than seek advice .
Do you think that would be better than a few unneeded call outs .


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## Flame_ (21 January 2014)

Dusty85 said:



			At the end of the day- as long as no harm/abuse comes to the horse and it does not suffer then does it matter? Surely we all agree on that?
		
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Well we don't agree because to some people death to a horse is great harm, to others it isn't harm at all and to others it is harm, but its less harm than declining welfare.

It matters because every time there's a thread like this judging people wanting to put down horses it must influence weak minded people to be all the more likely of bottling out of doing the decent thing by their horses which often is pts. It has to be OK. No "ifs" or "buts "or "how could you's?" making people feel guilty for not maintaining field ornaments, because for every person that bottles pts and finds a way to maintain their field ornament, there'll be another who cracks at some point during the years and expense and finds any old way to pass it on. 

Its lovely when people want to keep their field ornaments, lucky old horses to have all those years safe and happy and comfortable and not having to work for it. Fantastic. But pressing for this to be generally accepted practice by making one horse owners feel guilty just seems short sighted, idealistic and irresponsible to me, not to mention a bit mean.


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## Spring Feather (21 January 2014)

Goldenstar said:



			So you would rather an inexperienced owner just cracked on with a horse they thought was not right rather than seek advice .
Do you think that would be better than a few unneeded call outs .
		
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I have to say, my vets have all said the same thing. MBP seems to be on the up in the horseworld.  I personally think people who don't have enough knowledge or experience to own a horse shouldn't have one unless they are intelligent enough to keep a close knowledgeable network of people around them.


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## dogatemysalad (21 January 2014)

Goldenstar said:



			So you would rather an inexperienced owner just cracked on with a horse they thought was not right rather than seek advice .
Do you think that would be better than a few unneeded call outs .
		
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He's an amazing vet with plenty of time for everyone. I don't think he was referring to inexperienced owners, do you ?


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## amandap (21 January 2014)

Dusty85 said:



			For what its worth- I have always been a realist on these matters- It would break my heart more to know that Id passed my horse onto someone who caused them suffering, rather then Id put them down a few years early. But hey- feel free to call me a callous cow!
		
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I think many of us are also realists we just see individual situations differently perhaps? I have some younger horses but dread the thought of passing any of them on! Not because I am great owner or better than anyone else, just fear of where they might end up. The thought of pts my happy, healthy horses I've had for years and know well, is perhaps worse/harder for me? I wont know until or if the situation arises.


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## Spring Feather (21 January 2014)

Dusty85 said:



			This topic comes up a lot on here- it always provokes the same response- those that say they would rather pts then pass an old horse on, and those who seem horrified by this idea. Again and again it comes up, and again and again it ends up in argument and name calling.
		
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Yes and there's just no need for those who are for PTS readily name calling those who don't agree.  Just because almost every PTS thread has 100 times the amount of people telling the OP to PTS, doesn't mean that the 4 or 5 people who don't believe PTS is always the right answer, doesn't make their opinions any more valid, they're just louder and greater in number.  It's always the PTS crowd who shout down anyone else who may not agree with them, not the other way around.





			For what its worth- I have always been a realist on these matters- It would break my heart more to know that Id passed my horse onto someone who caused them suffering, rather then Id put them down a few years early. But hey- feel free to call me a callous cow!
		
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How many have you put down a few years early?


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## doriangrey (21 January 2014)

Flame_ said:



			Well we don't agree because to some people death to a horse is great harm, to others it isn't harm at all and to others it is harm, but its less harm than declining welfare.

It matters because every time there's a thread like this judging people wanting to put down horses it must influence weak minded people to be all the more likely of bottling out of doing the decent thing by their horses which often is pts. It has to be OK. No "ifs" or "buts "or "how could you's?" making people feel guilty for not maintaining field ornaments, because for every person that bottles pts and finds a way to maintain their field ornament, there'll be another who cracks at some point during the years and expense and finds any old way to pass it on. 

Its lovely when people want to keep their field ornaments, lucky old horses to have all those years safe and happy and comfortable and not having to work for it. Fantastic. But pressing for this to be generally accepted practice by making one horse owners feel guilty just seems short sighted, idealistic and irresponsible to me, not to mention a bit mean.
		
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Just to be clear, what does the term 'field ornament' mean to you?


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## Goldenstar (21 January 2014)

Spring Feather said:



			I have to say, my vets have all said the same thing. MBP seems to be on the up in the horseworld.  I personally think people who don't have enough knowledge or experience to own a horse shouldn't have one unless they are intelligent enough to keep a close knowledgeable network of people around them.
		
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But they have got them, and while I would not disagree with you it would be better if they did not have horses they have them .
And let's not demean people with mental illness who suffer a condition so serious that it causes them to harm people often family member and even to kill them for the rush and attention and I also really don't think owners are harming their horses so they can call the vet .( ok I admit it's possible but not surely in large numbers )

For ever over protective novice owner there's an owner  blind to the horses issues I see both types all the time .
Perhaps better the overprotective than the other sort.


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## Flame_ (21 January 2014)

doriangrey said:



			Just to be clear, what does the term 'field ornament' mean to you?
		
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Horses that can live comfortably if not worked but if put in work health or soundness issues show up.


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## windand rain (21 January 2014)

Goldenstar said:



			But they have got them, and while I would not disagree with you it would be better if they did not have horses they have them .
And let's not demean people with mental illness who suffer a condition so serious that it causes them to harm people often family member and even to kill them for the rush and attention and I also really don't think owners are harming their horses so they can call the vet .( ok I admit it's possible but not surely in large numbers )

For ever over protective novice owner there's an owner  blind to the horses issues I see both types all the time .
Perhaps better the overprotective than the other sort.
		
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I agree with this mbp is not simply over anxious people but people who actively set out to harm the animal/child relative to class horse owners as such is mildly ridiculous as the vast majority do anything they can to protect their animals and panic because they want to do the best they can. They are largely speaking scammed into paying for a variety of so called professionals (not vets) in the name of horse care ok if you want to waste money on them and you have it to waste but to be honest most novices and their horses would benefit more by some good old fashioned horseman classes than the variety of alternative treatments advocated on sites like this Not saying some dont work but a lot are totally bogus


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## Goldenstar (21 January 2014)

dogatemysalad said:



			He's an amazing vet with plenty of time for everyone. I don't think he was referring to inexperienced owners, do you ?
		
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I have no idea who he felt it was apporiate to disscuss with another cilent .
I made no comment on him personally i don't know him.
Surely better the unneeded call out inexperianced or other wise than the other side of the coin.
I will admit I  have seen overhorsed riders looking for medical reasons the horse won't go for them but hey no ones perfect some people are not blessed with self awareness .
But I also know a rider desperately seeking reason from her increasing unpredictable horse who was told to get on and ride the thing she did it hurled itself over a enormous bank side ways and died of a brain tumor she was luckily to escape badly battered .
I wonder how the vet who told her just to get on with it felt about that at the pm her husband demanded .


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## Dusty85 (21 January 2014)

Spring Feather said:



			How many have you put down a few years early?
		
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Thankfully, none. I haven't had any of the horses I've owned for long enough to be faced with this decision 

I'm not saying the decision is an easy one, I'm also not saying that I believe my opinion is the right one. 

But, when thinking about what I would do if I put myself into OPs shoes, then I would PTS. That is all I was referring to.


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## amandap (21 January 2014)

Whats MBP please Spring Feather? Can't work it out.

ps. Worked it out! Doh!


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## dogatemysalad (21 January 2014)

Goldenstar said:



			And let's not demean people with mental illness who suffer a condition so serious that it causes them to harm people often family member and even to kill them for the rush and attention and I also really don't think owners are harming their horses so they can call the vet .( ok I admit it's possible but not surely in large numbers )
		
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I think you miss the point. It's a valid observation about a trait that may not necessarily be  severe enough to impede the person's ability to function with daily living.
Not everyone with MBP will kill a family member. Those are extreme cases. Depression is similar in that it can range from a simple case of the blues to a psychotic episode. 
 The remarks by vets are based on their experience, I don't think it demeans anyone. It's part of being a vet (or doctor).


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## windand rain (21 January 2014)

MBP Munchhausen by proxy
An illness where a person damages hurts or harms someone or some living thing to get attention from medical professionals
Munchhuasens itself is self harming to get the attention of others usually doctors but may be other family members
sufferers can be so convincing they can endure serious surgical interventions and tend to be aware enough to go from hospital to hospital in order not to be discovered by appearing to often at one sometimes even travelling round the country and when wealthy enough round the world


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## Regandal (21 January 2014)

I took on a horse from Horses4Homes.  He's lovely, 13 yrs old and capable of light hacking, just what I need.  What upset me was the amount of older horses/ponies on that site, most unrideable and seeking a home as a companion.   "Captain, 23 years young, plenty left in the tank" etc.  Whilst acknowledging that people fall on hard times, the number of older/unrideable horses outnumber the young ones hugely, and you have to wonder how realistic the prospect of rehoming them is.  They must have been someone's pride & joy at some point in their lives, how sad to see.  I'd rather euthanise mine than send them away at that age.


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## dogatemysalad (21 January 2014)

Goldenstar said:



			I have no idea who he felt it was apporiate to disscuss with another cilent .
I made no comment on him personally i don't know him.
Surely better the unneeded call out inexperianced or other wise than the other side of the coin.
I will admit I  have seen overhorsed riders looking for medical reasons the horse won't go for them but hey no ones perfect some people are not blessed with self awareness .
But I also know a rider desperately seeking reason from her increasing unpredictable horse who was told to get on and ride the thing she did it hurled itself over a enormous bank side ways and died of a brain tumor she was luckily to escape badly battered .
I wonder how the vet who told her just to get on with it felt about that at the pm her husband demanded .
		
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Are you nit picking ? The vet did not mention a particular client. It was a generalization . He's also astute enough to know the difference between an owner needing advice and one that is attention seeking and using their horse to satisfy a need for drama.


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## Goldenstar (21 January 2014)

dogatemysalad said:



			I think you miss the point. It's a valid observation about a trait that may not necessarily be  severe enough to impede the person's ability to function with daily living.
Not everyone with MBP will kill a family member. Those are extreme cases. Depression is similar in that it can range from a simple case of the blues to a psychotic episode. 
 The remarks by vets are based on their experience, I don't think it demeans anyone. It's part of being a vet (or doctor).
		
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I did not say all people with MBP kill family members it's incredibly rare .
MBP does not cover the overprotective ,people with MBP harm people , people with Munshausens harm themselves .
The Overprotective are more likely to suffering from anxiety not the same thing at all or they are inexperianced and trying to do the right thing or they are on the forum a lot and realise most horses have ulcers , KS , cushings disease need a new saddle massive amounts of stuff doing to their teeth ( vet , EDT help which one Ahhh ) or perhaps a bodyworker or a chiro or a Bowen therapist . Ps that last bit is ironic .


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## Flame_ (21 January 2014)

Re. MBP, do you mean hypochondria by proxy?

I just think standards have raised in exactly how sound and well people expect to horses to be. Its no longer acceptable to crack on oblivious relying only on bute, ventapulmin and denial.


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## Goldenstar (21 January 2014)

dogatemysalad said:



			Are you nit picking ? The vet did not mention a particular client. It was a generalization . He's also astute enough to know the difference between an owner needing advice and one that is attention seeking and using their horse to satisfy a need for drama.
		
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If people call the vet to seek attention then I think thats profoundly sad I really do .


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## Goldenstar (21 January 2014)

Flame_ said:



			Re. MBP, do you mean hypochondria by proxy?

I just think standards have raised in exactly how sound and well people expect to horses to be. Its no longer acceptable to crack on oblivious relying only on bute, ventapulmin and denial.
		
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Munshausens by proxy a mental illness where sufferers harm others often by say feeding them salt because they get hooked on the rush of it .
People with Munshausens harm themselves .


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## MerrySherryRider (21 January 2014)

windand rain said:



			MBP Munchhausen by proxy
An illness where a person damages hurts or harms someone or some living thing to get attention from medical professionals
Munchhuasens itself is self harming to get the attention of others usually doctors but may be other family members
sufferers can be so convincing they can endure serious surgical interventions and tend to be aware enough to go from hospital to hospital in order not to be discovered by appearing to often at one sometimes even travelling round the country and when wealthy enough round the world
		
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The sufferer just commonly largely exaggerates or makes up symptoms.

 At the far end of the spectrum, the sufferer may inflict harm of varying degrees. 

Most of us have met someone who always has the worst flu, which is really a sniffle, and likes to make sure everyone knows about it.


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## Flame_ (21 January 2014)

Goldenstar said:



			Munshausens by proxy a mental illness where sufferers harm others often by say feeding them salt because they get hooked on the rush of it .
People with Munshausens harm themselves .
		
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Yep, sorry, what I was trying (and failing) to get at was that I think when MBP was first mentioned by whoever it was, they really were talking about hypochondria not Munshausens, just getting the two confused? Maybe not though.


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## Goldenstar (21 January 2014)

Flame_ said:



			Yep, sorry, what I was trying (and failing) to get at was that I think when MBP was first mentioned by whoever it was, they really were talking about hypochondria not Munshausens, just getting the two confused? Maybe not though.
		
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Hypochondria is thinking your ill 
People with Munshausens cause harm to them selves .


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## MerrySherryRider (21 January 2014)

Flame_ said:



			Yep, sorry, what I was trying (and failing) to get at was that I think when MBP was first mentioned by whoever it was, they really were talking about hypochondria not Munshausens, just getting the two confused? Maybe not though.
		
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I know this is a bit off topic, but hypochondria is when the person believes themselves to be sick. Munchausen occurs when the person lies and /or fakes an illness to gain attention.


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## Goldenstar (21 January 2014)

Munshausens is characterised by self harm .


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## Flame_ (21 January 2014)

MerrySherryRider said:



			I know this is a bit off topic, but hypochondria is when the person believes themselves to be sick. Munchausen occurs when the person lies and /or fakes an illness to gain attention.
		
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Yeah, thanks I get that. Never mind, I must not be making the point I was attempting to at all. Was just a thought, and like you say, OT.


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## doriangrey (21 January 2014)

Flame_ said:



			Horses that can live comfortably if not worked but if put in work health or soundness issues show up.
		
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Thanks for clarifying that.  It's the term 'field ornament', sounds harsh.  I have a retired mare, but would not regard her in that way, she's me friend!


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## MerrySherryRider (21 January 2014)

Goldenstar said:



			Munshausens is characterised by self harm .
		
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 The main feature is disceit and may not be realised by physical self harm.


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## Froddy (21 January 2014)

AdorableAlice said:



			Give her a decent bucket of grub and put her down at home.
		
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Got to about page 18/19, not sure exactly as lost the plot 

AA the voice of reason IMO


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## Meowy Catkin (22 January 2014)

Flame_ said:



			Yeah, thanks I get that. Never mind, I must not be making the point I was attempting to at all. Was just a thought, and like you say, OT. 

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I understood what you were getting at.


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## Box_Of_Frogs (22 January 2014)

I'm struggling to believe your selfishness Parisexx. You resent the fact that you could be stuck at home for another 10 years. God forbid if you ever have kids! You and OH been together 10 years but you bought the horse 8 yrs ago??? The horse: you can't be bothered to look after her any more and she no longer suits your current lifestyle. Great. Anyway, let's look at the options. It's unlikely you'd be able to sell her because of her age, her health problems and the fact that she can't be ridden. Horses that are given away often face very uncertain futures (because they're always given away for a reason). You could take her to market but she'd probably only make meat money. No charity would touch her unless you abandon her at the side of a road somewhere (please don't). Couldn't you find grass livery nearby and feed/rug her properly or is that too expensive as well? Now hear this: there are a lot...a LOT...worse things for a horse than being put down. A horse doesn't worry about tomorrow or next summer...it only worries about the NOW. If pts is done with compassion and dignity then you remove all the uncertainty of that horse ending up crammed alive in a meat wagon or abandoned and left to starve in a bare field. Do the decent thing and pts. Then off you go, away from mummy and have a lovely life.


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## khalswitz (22 January 2014)

MerrySherryRider said:



			The main feature is disceit and may not be realised by physical self harm.
		
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It is deceit, and exaggeration or *causing* of symptoms in order to deceive. Causing symptoms is not considered high end, causing severe illness and death is high end.

Hypchondrism I agree many, many horse owners display this - and exaggeration of behaviour/severity of symptoms. Intending to deceive a vet, though? Most not. 

Implying that a high % of horse owners are actively trying to deceive their vet for attention, and comparing a rational choice to PTS to that, is ridiculous.

The point of MBP, is that it is hard to spot because the assumption that a parent wants the best for their child is natural - not that they are inventing illness and causing symptoms for the rush it gives them to deceive medical professionals. So I'm suspicious of the vet (on a personal level, not medical) who can see that illness in so many clients, as it is notoriously difficult to spot for starters, and very rare. Doesn't say a lot of what he thinks of his clients either tbh.


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## TarrSteps (22 January 2014)

Flame_ said:



			Re. MBP, do you mean hypochondria by proxy?

I just think standards have raised in exactly how sound and well people expect to horses to be. Its no longer acceptable to crack on oblivious relying only on bute, ventapulmin and denial.
		
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 Although I might add resignation/acceptance. When there was less we could do we more easily accepted that there were limits and not everything was fixable.

Re the tangential discussion, I have met lots of paranoid owners (some rightly, some wrongly) but only one with full blown MBP and she was, frankly, terrifying. We didn't believe it for ages until the horse sustained a mild injury which she blamed on yard negligence, except that it was simply impossible for it to have happened in the way she said. I actually still remember the shock and horror when the yard owner and I realised that our joking diagnosis was probably true.


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## luckyoldme (22 January 2014)

I don t get this whole debate. I have a horse. He is 24 and at the moment he is sound and happy. I wouldnt evan consider any invasive treatment if he had colic or suchlike.thats because it is to exspensive for a horse of his age and ive allready given him 5 years of semi retirement. Does this make me selfish? Money does come into it...in the real world. Whatever the op s reason the horse is unaware of it. Your horse op dont feel the need to base your descision on what a load of strangers on the internet are saying.


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## Mithras (22 January 2014)

MerrySherryRider said:



			The main feature is disceit and may not be realised by physical self harm.
		
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Exactly.  The motivation may also be characterised by seeking out the attention of other people, especially those in positions of authority and in the professions.

Munchausens by Proxy is where the deceit is inflicted on a proxy ie a substitute.

Or deceit may not be involved, but there may be a psychological need for attention which causes the sufferer to believe that they suffer from a real problem.

OP -  none of this is aimed at you in the slightest, its just that the discussion has moved on.  Your problem is very much genuine.


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## Mithras (22 January 2014)

khalswitz said:



			It is deceit, and exaggeration or *causing* of symptoms in order to deceive. Causing symptoms is not considered high end, causing severe illness and death is high end.  I know a couple of genuine hypochondriacs and they just tend to make stupid decisions around horses, rather than exaggerate or imagine fake problems with their horses.

Hypchondrism I agree many, many horse owners display this - and exaggeration of behaviour/severity of symptoms. Intending to deceive a vet, though? Most not. 

Implying that a high % of horse owners are actively trying to deceive their vet for attention, and comparing a rational choice to PTS to that, is ridiculous.

The point of MBP, is that it is hard to spot because the assumption that a parent wants the best for their child is natural - not that they are inventing illness and causing symptoms for the rush it gives them to deceive medical professionals. So I'm suspicious of the vet (on a personal level, not medical) who can see that illness in so many clients, as it is notoriously difficult to spot for starters, and very rare. Doesn't say a lot of what he thinks of his clients either tbh.
		
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Who said it was a high proportion of horse owners?  In real life, I've only met one, plus a farrier who seemed to attribute various fictional ailments to a high number of horses he shod, to impress their owners I suppose.

On here though the constant number of threads about pts is noticeable.  I don't think its beyond the realms of probability that you could get a very mild manifestation of it played out by posting on a website about what is for many, the most taboo, final and private of things, and by constantly commenting on the topic and claiming to be an expert on it.

I became aware of it because I had a client who almost certainly had Munchausens by Proxy - its something anyone working in the professions has to be aware of, because sufferers so frequently try to attract attention from doctors, lawyers, etc for their perceived condition.  The senior partner instructed me to research it in some detail and he concluded that it would be unethical to continue to take fees from that client.  It was sad, but absolutely fascinating.

Some sufferers can be very clever in their deceit indeed, and it is important to realise that they may be suffering from an actual mental disorder and are not necessarily "bad" people.

I also suspect a lot of it has to do with control - sufferers of Munchausens by Proxy are known to target the professions for attention, because professionals are bound by professional standards of conduct and it is very difficult for them to refuse to take them seriously - they are almost compelled to listen to them, for a time at least.


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## khalswitz (22 January 2014)

Mithras said:



			Who said it was a high proportion of horse owners?  In real life, I've only met one, plus a farrier who seemed to attribute various fictional ailments to a high number of horses he shod, to impress their owners I suppose.

On here though the constant number of threads about pts is noticeable.  I don't think its beyond the realms of probability that you could get a very mild manifestation of it played out by posting on a website about what is for many, the most taboo, final and private of things, and by constantly commenting on the topic and claiming to be an expert on it.

I became aware of it because I had a client who almost certainly had Munchausens by Proxy - its something anyone working in the professions has to be aware of, because sufferers so frequently try to attract attention from doctors, lawyers, etc for their perceived condition.  The senior partner instructed me to research it in some detail and he concluded that it would be unethical to continue to take fees from that client.  It was sad, but absolutely fascinating.

Some sufferers can be very clever in their deceit indeed, and it is important to realise that they may be suffering from an actual mental disorder and are not necessarily "bad" people.
		
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Actually, you guys did. "high incidence" to be exact.



Mithras said:



			I always think there is quite a high incidence of Munchausen's by Proxy amongst horse owners, and pts is the ultimate manifestation for some.
		
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dogatemysalad said:



			My vet said exactly that just the other day. He smiled wryly and said rather than calling a vet every 5 minutes for an imagined illness, they should ride the bloody things.
		
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Spring Feather said:



			I have to say, my vets have all said the same thing. MBP seems to be on the up in the horseworld.
		
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I would completely have understood if you had said HYPERCHONDRISM - but MBP, as you have said yourself, is a mental disorder, and I stand by my opinion that claiming that there is a "high incidence" and it is "on the up" is ridiculous. It's like saying that the high incidence of matchy on the forums is due to a rise in OCD...

I know what MBP is, I am sorry to say. And it is shockingly difficult to pick up on, especially when symptoms are caused by parents in children and presented to medical professionals. So I do think the comparison of horsy owners worrying about small/no symptoms, and needing to 'get on with it' as was quoted, to this illness are belittling what is a serious disorder.

I agree that there are too many threads on this subject, and personally I think it is very sad - I don't go around posting about the death of my loved ones, yes it is part of life but a choice between cremation, burial, whether to bring the casket home etc are very personal and I don;t feel should be shared, same as when pts-ing an animal - it's about respect. But I think comparing this to MBP is ridiculous in the extreme.


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## Arizahn (22 January 2014)

Parisexx said:



			Hi all, moral dilemma here. I have a 20+ mare that I have owed for 6 years.  Long story but didnt realise she was this old when I bought her (passport wrong/fake) .
Dilemma is that I cannot afford her anymore. I need /want to move out of home as im 25 years old and want to start a life of my own. Trouble is what to do with the mare? 
She has sweet itch and arthritis but not currently on any medication. I dnt enjoy horses anymore and resent the fact that I could be stuck at home for another ten years or so and me and my OH desperately want a place of our own. Shes a lovely mare and its not her fault 
Open to ideas please thanks
		
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To get back to the actual topic of this thread.


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## Pigeon (22 January 2014)

crazyhorse37 said:



			Brave?  Did you not see the part about the horse NOT being ill.  This is a selfish and irresponsible act that is only because the owner can't be bothered any more.  That is NOT responsible horse ownership. 

I have an older horse and I get fed up with not being able to join in with everyone else jumping and schooling, but my mare is happy and is not ready to die just because I want to do more.  She is 24 and could live for another 10 years.  I will just have to continue to look after her well and enjoy her company until she is ready to go.  Of course I would love a faster model and/or no responsibility, but I took on my mare and so I must look after till the end.   I knew that when I bought her as an 8 year old and she has spent the majority of the time out of work or recovering, but that's just what comes with the territory.  They are pets first and work animals second.  You have to look after them even if they are no longer what you wanted.
		
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What so palming her off on someone else is the responsible option?!?!? Putting her at risk of an uncertain future? 

Horses don't know that they're being put down, their brains don't work that way. Far better a peaceful end than many of the (likely) possibilities.


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## Mithras (22 January 2014)

khalswitz said:



			Actually, you guys did. "high incidence" to be exact.
		
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I think you must realise that not everyone will know if you classify people in a certain way in your head.  I have no idea whom you are referring to as "you guys".  However I will repeat what I said above - I do not think that Munchausens by Proxy has a high incidence in the horse world at all.  This is not the same however as its not existing, and it does have different levels of severity.  Some sufferers may manifest just by talking about it and making suggestions.



khalswitz said:



			I would completely have understood if you had said HYPERCHONDRISM - but MBP, as you have said yourself, is a mental disorder, and I stand by my opinion that claiming that there is a "high incidence" and it is "on the up" is ridiculous. It's like saying that the high incidence of matchy on the forums is due to a rise in OCD...

I know what MBP is, I am sorry to say. And it is shockingly difficult to pick up on, especially when symptoms are caused by parents in children and presented to medical professionals. So I do think the comparison of horsy owners worrying about small/no symptoms, and needing to 'get on with it' as was quoted, to this illness are belittling what is a serious disorder.

I agree that there are too many threads on this subject, and personally I think it is very sad - I don't go around posting about the death of my loved ones, yes it is part of life but a choice between cremation, burial, whether to bring the casket home etc are very personal and I don;t feel should be shared, same as when pts-ing an animal - it's about respect. But I think comparing this to MBP is ridiculous in the extreme.
		
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No, I'm quite clear that its Munchausens by Proxy that I'm talking about, and it doesn't only attract people to seek attention from the medical profession.  It is a phonomenon well known in all professions - I suspect its rarity is what makes sufferers stand out, and to anyone in a position of authority, whether they are a professional or not.  Sometimes people seek to persuade an audience that what they are saying is true.  

A horse could certainly be a proxy, and in many ways is an ideal proxy, as they cannot speak out for themselves.  It is absolutely illogical to argue that no sufferer of Munchausens by Proxy could ever not use a horse as their proxy, or that that disorder could not eventually lead to putting to sleep that horse unnecessarily, or to talking about it in a less grossly manifested presentation of the disorder.

I'm not aware of any guidelines which restrict its manifestation to the limited and rather specific categories you outline.


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## HazyXmas (22 January 2014)

Anyone got any idea how the thread got here????

Poor OP, she must be very confused, i know that i am.


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## undergroundoli (22 January 2014)

Mithras said:



			I always think there is quite a high incidence of Munchausen's by Proxy amongst horse owners, and pts is the ultimate manifestation for some.
		
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Mithras said:



			However I will repeat what I said above - I do not think that Munchausens by Proxy has a high incidence in the horse world at all.
		
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Well, I'm confused.


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## Mithras (22 January 2014)

undergroundoli said:



			Well, I'm confused.
		
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Oh well fair enough.  I think we can assume that I now do not think it has a high incidence!  I don't really concentrate when I'm writing on here, I do it for relaxation believe it or not!  I think theres definitely an incidence of a manifestation of it, at varying levels.


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## khalswitz (22 January 2014)

undergroundoli said:



			Well, I'm confused.
		
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Me too.

I also never said it was purely medical, just that it usually is, or that a horse may NOT be a proxy - but you yourself said a high incidence in horse owners, and went on to compare to posting lots of threads about PTS. I think that this whole comparison of MBP to owners wanting to PTS horses/worrying over horses medical status is ridiculous. I think it downplays the seriousness of the medical disorder.


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## Mithras (22 January 2014)

khalswitz said:



			Me too.

I also never said it was purely medical, just that it usually is, or that a horse may NOT be a proxy - but you yourself said a high incidence in horse owners, and went on to compare to posting lots of threads about PTS. I think that this whole comparison of MBP to owners wanting to PTS horses/worrying over horses medical status is ridiculous. I think it downplays the seriousness of the medical disorder.
		
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I suspect theres a fine line between making yourself feel better about something uncomfortable, trying to control other people's views by imposing them on others and using websites to try and claim that they are mainstream, and certain disorders of the mind.

I'm not sure why denying the existence of Munchausens by Proxy should be such a big issue at all, since most of the professionals who are targeted seem to be aware that it is a known problem - we were certainly made aware of it in law school and it cropped up in our traineeship, and lawyers aren't targeted nearly as much as doctors.


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## Blurr (22 January 2014)

I'm not so sure about MBP in the horse world.  But there're certainly a lot of people seeking validation for their actions/proposed course of action on HHO when it comes to putting to sleep an older but healthy horse because it no longer suits to keep it.  How many people do you need to say 'pts' to assuage the guilt of a selfish decision?  That's not to say one shouldn't pts in that situation, I'm well aware of the 'there're far worse things' argument and fully endorse it.  I just think some owners need to grow a pair and take responsibility for their actions without whining about it to all and sundry, garnering sympathy for themselves instead of the poor old ned they're about to have shot.


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## khalswitz (22 January 2014)

Mithras said:



			I suspect theres a fine line between making yourself feel better about something uncomfortable, trying to control other people's views by imposing them on others and using websites to try and claim that they are mainstream, and certain disorders of the mind.

I'm not sure why denying the existence of Munchausens by Proxy should be such a big issue at all, since most of the professionals who are targeted seem to be aware that it is a known problem - we were certainly made aware of it in law school and it cropped up in our traineeship, and lawyers aren't targeted nearly as much as doctors.
		
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I'm obviously not getting my point across very well - I'm not denying the existence of it, not by a long shot, but to what I read, you had implied that you had inferred a high rate of MBP due to the high number of queries regrading pts, and discussion around pts, and had therefore implied that horse owners coming on here looking for validation in their decisions are actually mentally ill.

This is probably not how you intended it to be read, but this is what I have been trying to argue against - I think comparing owners who do not want to keep a horse on in retirement for whatever reason, so someone who is mentally ill, is ridiculous.


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## TarrSteps (22 January 2014)

But forums pretty much exist as sounding boards, don't they? Users seek like minded individuals who will provide the information they want and validate their choices. 

After all, everyone on hho is here because they have horses in common. That doesn't mean they will agree on everything but it does mean people assume a commonality of experience and a likelihood of informed opinions. They discuss the sort of things horsey people are interested in, including what to do with a big, expensive animal when you can't/don't want to care for it. This is probably more pressing for more people right now - if not, why are rescues full to overflowing?

Re the change in subject, that's what I like about forums, they are discussions. OPs don't own a thread any more than anyone who starts a conversation gets to control what everyone else says. Re MBP, I think there is a world of difference between people thinking their horse has the Disease Of The Week and actually HURTING it on purpose. In some ways, you could argue, that is at least an illness. Pretending your horse has a bizarre malady in order to avoid dealing with a more benign issue, or ignoring an obvious problem because it doesn't suit you seems more morally suspect. At least the OP (see, I got there ) didn't just shut up and pass the horse on to someone else.


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## ester (22 January 2014)

khalswitz said:



			I'm obviously not getting my point across very well - I'm not denying the existence of it, not by a long shot, but to what I read, you had implied that you had inferred a high rate of MBP due to the high number of queries regrading pts, and discussion around pts, and had therefore implied that horse owners coming on here looking for validation in their decisions are actually mentally ill.

This is probably not how you intended it to be read, but this is what I have been trying to argue against - I think comparing owners who do not want to keep a horse on in retirement for whatever reason, so someone who is mentally ill, is ridiculous.
		
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That is how I read it too, and yes it is ridiculous!


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## LaMooch (22 January 2014)

Pigeon said:



			What so palming her off on someone else is the responsible option?!?!? Putting her at risk of an uncertain future? 

Horses don't know that they're being put down, their brains don't work that way. Far better a peaceful end than many of the (likely) possibilities.
		
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I agree this mare shouldn't be passed on and orginal poster doesn't want this either so PTS is the best idea in my honest opinion to prevent that.


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## Fellewell (23 January 2014)

When half-starved youngsters are being dumped what hope is there for the older horse?
Families with 'old retainers' have the respect and affection for a horse who very likely owes them nothing. You have cared for this mare, even though she has arthritis and sweet itch you have managed without meds.It's quite possible a new owner will want to see what she is still capable of and then she will need meds. They won't have the investment of your history with her.

I don't know if horses can sense abandonment. It's always sad to see an older horse at the sales who was once someones pride and joy.
A quote from an old PC manual; _a horse or pony knows the voice of the one who feeds him or from whom some kindness is to be expected_. Let the last voice she hears be yours OP.
Sure I get that your OH is worried that you may resent him or that this may come up in an argument somewhere down the line. Just tell him he should know you better, your mother never liked him and you've given him the best years of your life (always works for me


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## Clare85 (23 January 2014)

Fellewell said:



			A quote from an old PC manual; _a horse or pony knows the voice of the one who feeds him or from whom some kindness is to be expected_. Let the last voice she hears be yours OP.
		
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This actually brought a tear to my eye as it is exactly how I would feel about any elderly horse of mine. I just couldn't pass on an older horse, even if it was 100% sound. I would hate the thought of uprooting an oldie to new people, sounds and smells where they may never truly settle. It would break my heart because I would be worried it would break the horse's heart to be taken away from its home and security. I know that might sound silly but it's the way I would feel.


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## PolarSkye (23 January 2014)

crazyhorse37 said:



			horses are horses, they are designed to live in the wild.
		
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What utter tosh.  Natives are indeed designed to live on the moors/fells, etc., but today's modern sport horses have had a lot of the hardiness bred out of them . . . long/spindly legs (not ideal for encountering potholes), different metabolisms/muscle structure (more fast-twitch versus slow-twitch muscles and burning fuel in different ways with differing fuel requirements).  

I realize you back-pedaled a little from your "chuck it out on the moors rather than shoot it" statement, but I do think you are being unbelievably unrealistic.  If the OP is struggling financially, resenting her (elderly and infirm/unrideable) mare and decides that for her (and the mare's) future the best thing is to PTS on a sunny day with a belly full of lovely forbidden grub, then that's HER decision - and personally, I salute her for it.  

I can't remember who said it - I know there were several - but I wholly agree that rescues are full to bursting (and therefore can't take on more deserving cases in dire need of true "rescue") simply because owners won't make the practical and sensible decision to PTS rather than passing horses from pillar to post.

Sigh.

P


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## PolarSkye (23 January 2014)

Clare85 said:



			This actually brought a tear to my eye as it is exactly how I would feel about any elderly horse of mine. I just couldn't pass on an older horse, even if it was 100% sound. I would hate the thought of uprooting an oldie to new people, sounds and smells where they may never truly settle. It would break my heart because I would be worried it would break the horse's heart to be taken away from its home and security. I know that might sound silly but it's the way I would feel.
		
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This is exactly why we will be Kali's last home - and why, when I think we've reached the end of the road . . . for whatever reason and in consultation with my vet . . . he will be PTS.

P


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## PercyMum (23 January 2014)

For me, this is about facing up to responsibilities.  OP bought her horse 6 years ago, when she was 19 (by my calculations). She thought it was younger than it was, but in reality it couldnt have been hugely younger than she thought, maybe 5 years (assuming it was vetted or she had someone with knowledge look at it first?).  So to be fairly harsh, why did she buy what was (technically) an aged horse, when she herself was young, living at home, with a realm of possibilities in fornt of her, all of which require cold hard cash?  If he had been with the OH for 4 years at that point, was there no discussion of their future and the impact that a horse might have? So essentially, she bought a horse, on minimum wage, with no thought as to what the future might hold.  This to me is irresponsible.

However, she does clearly care for the mare.  I am glad she does not want to move her on to an uncertain future and frankly, it shouldnt  even cross her mind.  I know she wants to move on with her life but we make our choices and we live by their outcomes.  It is very sad that PTS is a convenient option (although I am not saying its easy by any stretch)- if only everything could be sorted with such convenience.  In this case, PTS would appear to be OPs only option if she is unwilling to give the mare a retirement until she cannot comfortably go on. I feel sorry for the mare and can only hope tha the OP thinks very carefully before getting any other animal in the future.


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## TarrSteps (23 January 2014)

PercyMum said:



			For me, this is about facing up to responsibilities.  OP bought her horse 6 years ago, when she was 19 (by my calculations). She thought it was younger than it was, but in reality it couldnt have been hugely younger than she thought, maybe 5 years (assuming it was vetted or she had someone with knowledge look at it first?).  So to be fairly harsh, why did she buy what was (technically) an aged horse, when she herself was young, living at home, with a realm of possibilities in fornt of her, all of which require cold hard cash?  If he had been with the OH for 4 years at that point, was there no discussion of their future and the impact that a horse might have? So essentially, she bought a horse, on minimum wage, with no thought as to what the future might hold.  This to me is irresponsible.

However, she does clearly care for the mare.  I am glad she does not want to move her on to an uncertain future and frankly, it shouldnt  even cross her mind.  I know she wants to move on with her life but we make our choices and we live by their outcomes.  It is very sad that PTS is a convenient option (although I am not saying its easy by any stretch)- if only everything could be sorted with such convenience.  In this case, PTS would appear to be OPs only option if she is unwilling to give the mare a retirement until she cannot comfortably go on. I feel sorry for the mare and can only hope tha the OP thinks very carefully before getting any other animal in the future.
		
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But then people do that sort of thing all the time on here and are met with almost universal encouragement. So many people own multiple horses, even in jobs and situations where there is clearly a lot of volatility. It really is a mixed message - that it's worth *anything* to have/keep a horse . . .right up until the reality is undeniable.

I'm still amazed how many people think it's completely reasonable to expect to live at home indefinitely in order to be able to keep a horse. I guess parents must be okay with this but surely that is a bit of a debatable message, too?


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## PercyMum (23 January 2014)

TarrSteps said:



			But then people do that sort of thing all the time on here and are met with almost universal encouragement. So many people own multiple horses, even in jobs and situations where there is clearly a lot of volatility. It really is a mixed message - that it's worth *anything* to have/keep a horse . . .right up until the reality is undeniable.

I'm still amazed how many people think it's completely reasonable to expect to live at home indefinitely in order to be able to keep a horse. I guess parents must be okay with this but surely that is a bit of a debatable message, too?
		
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I agree with all your points!  I don't think people should buy horses and keep horses on a shoestring budget - unless they are prepared to make huge and long term sacrifices.  Which the OP is not prepared to do, and didn't give enough thought to in the first place.

And I don't think people should live at home indefinately either - its not healthy imo.  My Mum 'kicked' me out at 17 (in a nice way!!) and said I could either pay full rent, or find alternate means.  It was done with the kindest intentions, ie, making me stand on my own 2 feet.  Clearly I had some wobbles and she was there to help me but there was no molly-coddling and she most definately would not have entertained the idea of buying a horse whilst still living at home and not paying my way!! I did buy my first horse whilst renting and quickly bought my first house after.  But then I was on a bloody good wage and could afford to do so. And I accepted the reality of what if I coudlnt ride/lost my job etc etc and planned accordingly

I sometimes think people need to factor in the realities of life and how much it costs, especially if you have horses and it goes wrong.  And I am sorry if this comes across as snobby and judgemental but I would like to think of it more as cold hard truth!


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## MotherOfChickens (23 January 2014)

PercyMum said:



			I sometimes think people need to factor in the realities of life and how much it costs, especially if you have horses and it goes wrong.  And I am sorry if this comes across as snobby and judgemental but I would like to think of it more as cold hard truth!
		
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yes, but many 19yos aren't capable of planning that far ahead (and before I get jumped on, I'm sure there are some that are but not those still living at home I'd be guessing). I left home at 16, didnt get my own horse until I was 34 but that doesnt help the OP.


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## PolarSkye (23 January 2014)

MotherOfChickens said:



			yes, but many 19yos aren't capable of planning that far ahead (and before I get jumped on, I'm sure there are some that are but not those still living at home I'd be guessing). I left home at 16, didnt get my own horse until I was 34 but that doesnt help the OP.
		
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Agree on both counts . . . no point beating up the OP for the choices she made (while still relatively young) . . . that doesn't help her make a decision based on her current situation.  

P


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## honetpot (23 January 2014)

PercyMum said:



			For me, this is about facing up to responsibilities.  OP bought her horse 6 years ago, when she was 19 (by my calculations). She thought it was younger than it was, but in reality it couldnt have been hugely younger than she thought, maybe 5 years (assuming it was vetted or she had someone with knowledge look at it first?).  So to be fairly harsh, why did she buy what was (technically) an aged horse, when she herself was young, living at home, with a realm of possibilities in fornt of her, all of which require cold hard cash?  If he had been with the OH for 4 years at that point, was there no discussion of their future and the impact that a horse might have? So essentially, she bought a horse, on minimum wage, with no thought as to what the future might hold.  This to me is irresponsible.

However, she does clearly care for the mare.  I am glad she does not want to move her on to an uncertain future and frankly, it shouldnt  even cross her mind.  I know she wants to move on with her life but we make our choices and we live by their outcomes.  It is very sad that PTS is a convenient option (although I am not saying its easy by any stretch)- if only everything could be sorted with such convenience.  In this case, PTS would appear to be OPs only option if she is unwilling to give the mare a retirement until she cannot comfortably go on. I feel sorry for the mare and can only hope tha the OP thinks very carefully before getting any other animal in the future.
		
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 Gosh that first paragraph is a bit harsh. You usually buy older horses because they are schoolmasters and a bit cheaper, although the true cost of the horse is always  their keep. I bought my teenage daughter a 17 year old TB as her first horse, we bought him knowing that he may have health issues in the future but could not afford a horse with his schooling as a nine year old, he passed a two stage vetting which I was surprised at. 
   They had a great couple of years together and bless him he was never sick or lame, he was kept like a king and cost me a fortune in feed. She then went to uni, even working part time she could never had afforded to keep him, if she had not had my support she would have to had to try and sell a 19 year old TB who was a money pit or have him PTS. I kept him for seven years until unfortunately we could no longer maintain his body weight  and he was becoming progressively stiffer and he was PTS in his field. If I had had to have him PTS when he was 19 he would have not have known anything, the only reason for keeping him was we cared for him, we had are own land and I could afford the haylage and hard feed that he needed to keep him going, it would have just as hard to have him PTS in fact it would have been worse.
  Everyone who buys a pony for their child knows that one day they will grow out of it whether they are six or sixteen, either physically, they want something to progress on or they are just want to do something else, usually its boys. I am lucky, at one point I had five of my children's' outgrown equines sat in fields ranging from 12-16 hands, most of them completely unsalable even if I had wanted to sell because of their age, this does not make me a better person. I have a friend who is totally unattached to her daughters ponies/horses and when they are no longer required they are sold or shot, I am not a nicer person than her and all her animals are well looked after.
  Life for all of us is not certain, we plan things, we make choices, we get married and sometimes things just not turn out how we thought they would do.


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## PercyMum (23 January 2014)

Yes, it is harsh, but its true.

And no it doesn't help the OP, but I was merely commenting on the situation.

Honetpot - YOU were prpared to pay for the horse, regardless of your daughters choices.  You comments also show that you thought through the whole process responsibly.  I suspect in the OPs case, she did not.  Yes life throws unfortunate and unplanned events at you.  However, buying a horse at 19 with a long-term boyfriend surely would inevitably throw up the possibility of a future lack of funds when INEVITABLY she would want to move out???

I am not being deliberately unkind, I'm really not.  And fwiw, PTS would be the most responsible option she has, given her comments.  But its a position that she shouldn't have got herself into tbh.


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## MotherOfChickens (23 January 2014)

in the last 6 years there's also been a recession and a credit crunch. Many older people around the UK have been struggling with financial decisions and existing animals. I am sure the whole thing has been a life lesson for her. you know, those things that we learn from when we are younger.


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## Swirlymurphy (23 January 2014)

TarrSteps said:



			I'm still amazed how many people think it's completely reasonable to expect to live at home indefinitely in order to be able to keep a horse. I guess parents must be okay with this but surely that is a bit of a debatable message, too?
		
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Not all parents would be okay with this!  But to be honest it is also up to the parents to have thought ahead and to have advised their (presumably) teenage daughter.  19 year olds are not renowned for their foresight.


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## Jesstickle (23 January 2014)

MotherOfChickens said:



			in the last 6 years there's also been a recession and a credit crunch. Many older people around the UK have been struggling with financial decisions and existing animals. I am sure the whole thing has been a life lesson for her. you know, those things that we learn from when we are younger.
		
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No no. Everyone should just be born with the innate knowledge of where life will take them and what will be involved. Even though they have never experienced it 


Do you know how responsible I was at 19? Not very. If you'd asked me if I wanted to move out, have kids, have a boyfriend I'd have said horses were more important to me. They're not now. In ten years a lot has changed as I have gone through life. Funny that. 

Perhaps you would all like to chastise me for having the audacity to be young and naive when I was young and naive. Clearly I ought to have known then what I do now somehow....


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## TarrSteps (23 January 2014)

Jesstickle said:



			No no. Everyone should just be born with the innate knowledge of where life will take them and what will be involved. Even though they have never experienced it 


Do you know how responsible I was at 19? Not very. If you'd asked me if I wanted to move out, have kids, have a boyfriend I'd have said horses were more important to me. They're not now. In ten years a lot has changed as I have gone through life. Funny that. 

Perhaps you would all like to chastise me for having the audacity to be young and naive when I was young and naive. Clearly I ought to have known then what I do now somehow....
		
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Everyone has been in that situation! And lots of people have had to make hard, unpleasant decisions when those choices have caught up with them, often in the face of opinions from other people who disagree. 

I would agree that this is a particular problem now - the world was literally a different place 6 or 7 years ago and MANY people - most of them grown ups with much more experience of the world - made choices that reflected the outlook at the time. They are now, unfortunately, having to make decisions based on the new reality, one of which is giving up or even putting down beloved animals. Hence the full rescues.  

I guess that's why I got a bit annoyed earlier with the number of people saying that, things being what they are, the OP should be prepared to stay at home indefinitely (regardless of her parents' wishes) or "get another job" in a situation where both might be completely unfair expectations.

I guess my only point is that I do wish people - kids, parents, everyone - thought a bit more about what MIGHT happen not just what they hope will happen. I get annoyed when horse people think this is pessimistic or "raining on the parade".

Growing up sucks quite a lot of the time. There are teenagers who are sole carers for their families, let alone a horse, and I bet they have to make sorts of decisions people on the Internet wouldn't agree with. 

Good luck, OP. Part of being a grown up is making YOUR OWN decisions and you have to make the best one for you. There is no absolutely right or wrong. If you meet a 16 year old looking to buy a horse in the future, though, you should probably recount your story to them, just for balance.


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## honetpot (23 January 2014)

I think my point is I took on an older horse and as an older adult I took that choice knowing of the consequences whether I had him PTS six months or six years later. The choice is mine, I am not a better person for keeping him alive in fact if he was not kept properly, I could have kept two for what it cost to feed him, I would have been bad owner.
 Now when I was eighteen I got my first pony, my family had no money and I learnt to ride scrounging rides off other people. My mum paid £150 for it I was ecstatic, something I had dreamed about from when I was six, and  I left school at sixteen to work on a stud farm. About six months later I got a job, worked shifts, didn't drive and then the tin lid, I got a boyfriend. The pony I had dreamed of most of my life was sold with not really much thought. Fortunately or not my mum was not a great thinker about the future and at eighteen I certainly wasn't, and lots of people can not see what is around the corner even though its well sign posted. Most of us are not bad people you just do not know what you don't know and many of us of learn by experience however glowingly obvious its is to an outsider.


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## khalswitz (23 January 2014)

TarrSteps said:



			Everyone has been in that situation! And lots of people have had to make hard, unpleasant decisions when those choices have caught up with them, often in the face of opinions from other people who disagree. 

I would agree that this is a particular problem now - the world was literally a different place 6 or 7 years ago and MANY people - most of them grown ups with much more experience of the world - made choices that reflected the outlook at the time. They are now, unfortunately, having to make decisions based on the new reality, one of which is giving up or even putting down beloved animals. Hence the full rescues.  

I guess that's why I got a bit annoyed earlier with the number of people saying that, things being what they are, the OP should be prepared to stay at home indefinitely (regardless of her parents' wishes) or "get another job" in a situation where both might be completely unfair expectations.

I guess my only point is that I do wish people - kids, parents, everyone - thought a bit more about what MIGHT happen not just what they hope will happen. I get annoyed when horse people think this is pessimistic or "raining on the parade".

Growing up sucks quite a lot of the time. There are teenagers who are sole carers for their families, let alone a horse, and I bet they have to make sorts of decisions people on the Internet wouldn't agree with. 

Good luck, OP. Part of being a grown up is making YOUR OWN decisions and you have to make the best one for you. There is no absolutely right or wrong. If you meet a 16 year old looking to buy a horse in the future, though, you should probably recount your story to them, just for balance.
		
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It is difficult, because I was that 16 year old as well, did the responsible thing and sold on before going to uni... and then two years later ended up at uni with another horse! Haven't not had one since, despite shoestring budgets etc. However, I realised how much riding meant to me while I was there, and how much having a horse to ride made my whole life better and more enjoyable. Up until starting my own business, I managed perfectly well on my own finances, and now having started my own business thankfully I've been able to move back in with my parents to take the strain off - but this is something I'd have had to do without a horse as well.

However I've had to give up a lot for horses - I don't spend money on going out socialising (cheap nights in all the way), I don't drink very often, I don't ever buy clothes for myself unless I have no jodhpurs left, I don't spend money on luxuries... even buying new riding boots for myself takes planning ahead. I shop in car boots/secondhand tack shops/Facebook buy/swap/sells. But would I expect everyone to do this, and for 6 or 7 years like I have, with no prospect of it getting better in the next few? No. And I wouldn;t recommend it either, but I am a grownup, and it's my choice. However I *really* wouldn't live like this for a horse I couldn't enjoy riding ever again.


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## undergroundoli (23 January 2014)

TarrSteps said:



			I would agree that this is a particular problem now - the world was literally a different place 6 or 7 years ago and MANY people - most of them grown ups with much more experience of the world - made choices that reflected the outlook at the time. They are now, unfortunately, having to make decisions based on the new reality, one of which is giving up or even putting down beloved animals. Hence the full rescues.
		
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This is so true. Who knows what OP has gone through since she got the horse. Redundancy, training programs ended, pay rises not arriving when promised... Its not been the best six years to be starting out in and she wasn't necessarily feckless getting the horse.


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## EstherYoung (23 January 2014)

undergroundoli said:



			This is so true. Who knows what OP has gone through since she got the horse. Redundancy, training programs ended, pay rises not arriving when promised... Its not been the best six years to be starting out in and she wasn't necessarily feckless getting the horse.
		
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Indeed. I got my first horse at around the same age, then the late 80s early 90s recession hit and the jobs I thought I'd be able to get as a college leaver didn't materialise. I managed to keep my mare because my parents supported me, but it wasn't easy. 

We've got very scant information about the situation here, so don't judge a man till you've walked a mile in his shoes and all that. Lots and lots and lots of teenagers and young adults buy horses.


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