# Cubbing post ban?



## Floxie (27 May 2012)

Apologies for this rather political subject from a new member, but I've been wondering about this for some time. I stopped riding (and obviously hunting) right before the ban, so I know little about how it's progressed since - though I hope to be starting again soon  

At the time, I know we all laughed and joked about how it went on anyway, it was just called 'exercising the hounds'. I don't know how realistic that was, and I wouldn't ask anyone here to tell me since the old sport is still illegal and it's all probably against forum rules. But having spoken to friends who live in the path of a hunt, I know at least some have replaced the fox with drag hunting.

But what I don't understand is - what is cubbing now?! I keep seeing horses advertised who have 'cubbed and hunted last season'. Is cubbing literally just drag hunting but earlier in the season? Exactly the same thing but you have to wake up at a ridiculous hour and dress for both a freezing morning and a roasting afternoon?  Do you have to stand around for an hour while your horse tries to kill you before they drag the scent off? (sorry, we never quite got on with cubbing, can you tell?!)


----------



## combat_claire (27 May 2012)

The aim seems to be to retain the structure of the hunting year as it was pre-ban. Therefore autumn hunting takes place at the same hour as before.

Depending on the exemption being used by the pack this dictates the format of autumn hunting. Some flush to birds of prey or guns, others use two hounds only and some lay trails that try to replicate autumn hunting pre-ban. The scent aspects that made early starts necessary in september still apply to artificially laid trails.

For me I love the magical mornings as the field gather in the dawn, hounds singing on the lorry, steam rising from the horses' flanks and wouldn't change it for the world!


----------



## combat_claire (27 May 2012)

The aim seems to be to retain the structure of the hunting year as it was pre-ban. Therefore autumn hunting takes place at the same hour as before.

Depending on the exemption being used by the pack this dictates the format of autumn hunting. Some flush to birds of prey or guns, others use two hounds only and some lay trails that try to replicate autumn hunting pre-ban. The scent aspects that made early starts necessary in september still apply to artificially laid trails.

For me I love the magical mornings as the field gather in the dawn, hounds singing on the lorry, steam rising from the horses' flanks and wouldn't change it for the world!


----------



## Miss L Toe (27 May 2012)

So they are using birds of prey to catch young foxes. sounds bizarre, unlikely and ridiculous.
Exemptions.. what are these please?
I always though that cubbing was to control fox populations, and that young hounds were trained to work together at this time.


----------



## Sherston (27 May 2012)

Of course the same things apply to cubbing, or autumn hunting, pre and post ban, the reason for the early starts is to preserve scent of the quarry (drag post, fox pre, (subject to exemptions etc)) better than in the much warmer temperatures of the main part of the day, equally the scent preserves better in cover etc etc....... just like pre ban. So those very special mornings still reassuringly continue. Can't wait until end of August personally.


----------



## combat_claire (28 May 2012)

Miss L Toe said:



			So they are using birds of prey to catch young foxes. sounds bizarre, unlikely and ridiculous.
Exemptions.. what are these please?
I always though that cubbing was to control fox populations, and that young hounds were trained to work together at this time.
		
Click to expand...

Using a bird of prey to catch foxes is neither bizarre nor ridiculous. Golden eagles have been used in Kazakhstan for just such a task for centuries. They are also capable of taking small deer and other ground game. 

As already stated above the exemptions of the Hunting Act include hunting exempt species such as rats or rabbits, flushing to a bird of prey, flushing to guns, using a maximum of 2 hounds, hound exercise, research and observation, searching for a wounded animal or trail hunting. 

Pre-ban Autumn hunting was designed to disperse fox populations and to teach young hounds entering the pack what to do. Post-Ban autumn hunting simply attempts to replicate this as closely as possible, using the exemptions detailed above without flouting the law. Something that most packs have managed successfully since 2005. 

Sherston, I don't think I can wait until the end of August. Think I might slope off Westwards for a sneaky weekend on the moor!


----------



## Suziq77 (28 May 2012)

Floxie said:



			you have to wake up at a ridiculous hour and dress for both a freezing morning and a roasting afternoon?  Do you have to stand around for an hour while your horse tries to kill you before they drag the scent off?
		
Click to expand...





combat_claire said:



			For me I love the magical mornings as the field gather in the dawn, hounds singing on the lorry, steam rising from the horses' flanks and wouldn't change it for the world!
		
Click to expand...

Me too!




Sherston said:



			Can't wait until end of August personally.
		
Click to expand...

Not too much longer now, it's nearly June.....


----------



## Miss L Toe (28 May 2012)

combat_claire said:



			Using a bird of prey to catch foxes is neither bizarre nor ridiculous. Golden eagles have been used in Kazakhstan for just such a task for centuries. They are also capable of taking small deer and other ground game.
		
Click to expand...

OK, well tomorrow, I will go up to the Highlands of Scotland, steal a fledgling Golden Eagle, once it is fully grown [the size of a Very Large Turkey],  I will go to Khazakstan and find Borat's Uncle, the Jolly Green Giant and his 18.3hh Drum Horse so we can join the Quorn on cubbing days....  I don't think so.....


----------



## combat_claire (28 May 2012)

You prove that there is truth to the old maxim 'better to be kept quiet and be thought a fool then to open your mouth and remove all doubt'


----------



## combat_claire (28 May 2012)

Our golden eagle has been regularly catching foxes since the ban as well as other ground game he is flown at. The mastership have extensive footage of his training and kills. Still don't let the facts get in the way of your facetious remarks.


----------



## Floxie (28 May 2012)

Hmm, yes, quite!

Thank you to the helpful people who explained it properly! I find it really interesting that the same purposes can be replicated with scent - that's cool. I just couldn't see it until you explained.

I also absolutely loved the atmosphere, but unfortunately my horse just didn't understand that it was time to be quiet and walk nicely. He saw hounds, he wanted to ruuuuun! I'm hoping I'll get to experience it on someone less silly in future


----------



## Miss L Toe (28 May 2012)

combat_claire said:



			Our golden eagle has been regularly catching foxes since the ban as well as other ground game he is flown at. The mastership have extensive footage of his training and kills. Still don't let the facts get in the way of your facetious remarks.
		
Click to expand...

So you take this bird cubbing?


----------



## Miss L Toe (28 May 2012)

combat_claire said:



			Our golden eagle has been regularly catching foxes since the ban as well as other ground game he is flown at. The mastership have extensive footage of his training and kills. Still don't let the facts get in the way of your facetious remarks.
		
Click to expand...

Sorry, I see Eagles can catch foxes, under certain conditions, but I have never seen any footage of a Hunt doing it. 
To be honest I cannot see any difference between hunting with hounds and hunting with an Eagle from the point of view of the fox, either way I would rather increase the population of wild Eagles than captives.


----------



## Floxie (28 May 2012)

While I support and adore hunting, I would imagine a kill from an eagle is by far preferable to the chase and kill by hounds - and this is coming from someone who will always defend hunting with hounds.

It's even preferable (in my opinion) to gunshot, since I'm certain a raptor would make sure of a kill - which a gun cannot.

That wasn't really what this thread was about, though. I asked how cubbing worked since the ban, not whether we should be increasing the number of wild eagles 

I'd love to see an eagle hunt - is it common? How would you find out which hunts use birds of prey?


----------



## EAST KENT (29 May 2012)

Miss L Toe said:



			OK, well tomorrow, I will go up to the Highlands of Scotland, steal a fledgling Golden Eagle, once it is fully grown [the size of a Very Large Turkey],  I will go to Khazakstan and find Borat's Uncle, the Jolly Green Giant and his 18.3hh Drum Horse so we can join the Quorn on cubbing days....  I don't think so.....
		
Click to expand...

  So so funny,thankyou


----------



## combat_claire (29 May 2012)

Miss L Toe said:



			So you take this bird cubbing?
		
Click to expand...

Our falconer does, yes. Here is a photo of them out one morning. 

http://www.flickr.com/photos/combat_claire/7293613828/


----------



## combat_claire (29 May 2012)

Miss L Toe said:



			Sorry, I see Eagles can catch foxes, under certain conditions, but I have never seen any footage of a Hunt doing it. 
To be honest I cannot see any difference between hunting with hounds and hunting with an Eagle from the point of view of the fox, either way I would rather increase the population of wild Eagles than captives.
		
Click to expand...

I have never been quick enough to get a photo of the eagle in action, it is an impressive sight though. Some of our photographers with their telephoto lenses have got some awesome shots. 

Personally I would take outwitting the hounds over trying my luck against the eagle any time. The eagle will grab hold of the fox anywhere it can - it's back, it's eyes, it's face, death by an eagle without human intervention is also very slow as the talons ratchet tighter. Our falconer carries a knife to dispatch the quarry more rapidly. 

I guess the MFHA would know which packs were using golden eagles.


----------



## PaulT (29 May 2012)

That's interesting Claire. So although you accept that considerable suffering is caused by using a Golden Eagle to kill a fox, you're quite happy for your hunt to carry on using one regardless?

I'm reminded of the comment made by the chairman of the Hunting Alliance during the Burns Inquiry: 'If hunting was cruel, we wouldn't do it'. Have these sentiments now been forgotten?


----------



## combat_claire (29 May 2012)

Remember it was the antis that forced us into this. Rather rubbishes their claims that they were interested in animal welfare.


----------



## PaulT (29 May 2012)

combat_claire said:



			Remember it was the antis that forced us into this. Rather rubbishes their claims that they were interested in animal welfare.
		
Click to expand...

Forced you into it? Come on, at least try to be honest and take responsibilty for your own actions. No one's forcing you to do anything - your hunt *chooses *to set a Golden Eagle on foxes, and you choose to support their endeavours.

Attempting to score political points appears more important to you than concern about animal welfare, and such comments negate your claims about how 'humane' hunting was in the good old days.


----------



## Sherston (29 May 2012)

PaulT, I think you will find that percieved class war was more important than animal welfare, hence the ban, and the falconry exemption. To quote Prescot from radio 4 days after the ban "the ban had nothing to do with animal welfair", and to quote Skinner "thats one back for the miners".

No form of pest control is perfect - gassing, poisoning, shooting? and amazingly enough no close season while rearing young, this only existed in Hunting which was banned! Other methods are just far less visable or emotionally charged to the masses. I'm sure this debate will go on and you can proceed to trot out the usual rubbish, so i'll let you no doubt go next............. yawn


----------



## PaulT (29 May 2012)

Sherston, thank you ever so much for allowing me to go next. 

Why am I not surprised at yet another pro-hunter who presents sloppy generalisations as fact? You seem perfectly content to cite a handful of lefties as representative of the views of some two-thirds of the public, who happen to view your pastime as vile. 

Claire was telling us how her actions are controlled by antis nowadays. Do you find that as well?


----------



## happyhunter123 (29 May 2012)

Hello! This is my first ever post. 
I do love a nice summer morning of hunting, the mornings can be so beautiful. Can't wait until the autumn hunting season starts again. 

Anyway, in my opinion, having an eagle probably isn't as quick as killing with hounds. But it's a safer option than shooting at a running fox with a gun, as it is being flushed. There is too high a chance then that it'll be injured. At least with a bird you can be pretty sure that the bird will kill it.

I also agree that the 'class war' was more important than animal welfare. While I have no doubts that some MPs genuinely believed to be helping the welfare of animals, for many others it was a way at getting back at the Tories. If they all cared about the welfare of animals THAT much why did the Labour party allow the live export of calves (for veal) to the continent to resume? So much for 'animal welfare'.


----------



## Miss L Toe (29 May 2012)

Good post hh


----------



## Fiagai (29 May 2012)

PaulT said:



			Sherston, thank you ever so much for allowing me to go next. 
Why am I not surprised at yet another pro-hunter who presents sloppy generalisations as fact? You seem perfectly content to cite a handful of lefties as representative of the views of some two-thirds of the public, who happen to view your pastime as vile. 
Claire was telling us how her actions are controlled by antis nowadays. Do you find that as well?
		
Click to expand...

yada yada yada....

Well well if its not lil' ol PaulT - haven't been around since what? June 2011?
What have you been doing, I wonder in all that time? 

Funny thing is the only posts you do post here are always an attack on the interests of Forum members...bit perculiar that isn't it  Have you no positive horsey stories?  hows the horse?  Been to any shows, SJ, Dressage, Eventing ...no?  Taken up drag / trail hunting by any chance so you can educate yourself eh?

Hows your dog perhaps...I am sure the other forum members would to love to meet the real PaulT...

But anyway good to see you are trotting out the same level of drivel and lack of logic...


----------



## Vulpinator (30 May 2012)

PaulT said:



			Forced you into it? Come on, at least try to be honest and take responsibilty for your own actions. No one's forcing you to do anything - your hunt *chooses *to set a Golden Eagle on foxes, and you choose to support their endeavours.

Attempting to score political points appears more important to you than concern about animal welfare, and such comments negate your claims about how 'humane' hunting was in the good old days.
		
Click to expand...

Come on Mike weve seen this sort of attempt before your a LACS under ground investigator weve told you the way it works and you were the one that wanted this ludicrus law.


----------



## Alec Swan (30 May 2012)

Vulpinator said:



			Come on Mike weve seen this sort of attempt before your a LACS under ground investigator weve told you the way it works and you were the one that wanted this ludicrus law.
		
Click to expand...

Which by all accounts,  makes Vulpinator,  a terrier!  The question is,  will Charlie bolt?

Alec.


----------



## PaulT (31 May 2012)

It's so nice to be back amongst such welcoming and friendly people. Faigai, I have especially missed your intelligent contributions and willingness to engage in thoughtful debate. You really are a credit to the pro-hunting fraternity. I've little doubt you have a distinguished future ahead of you as PRO for your cause - as your contributions to last year's fox-baiting discussions will testify.

Is there anyone on this thread who doesn't share Claire's inability to control her own actions? I wonder whether this is an affliction peculiar to pro-hunters.


----------



## happyhunter123 (31 May 2012)

Oh dear, what a sarcastic individual. Sarcasm in the lowest form of wit, you know that right?


----------



## Vulpinator (31 May 2012)

PaulT said:



			It's so nice to be back amongst such welcoming and friendly people. Faigai, I have especially missed your intelligent contributions and willingness to engage in thoughtful debate. You really are a credit to the pro-hunting fraternity. I've little doubt you have a distinguished future ahead of you as PRO for your cause - as your contributions to last year's fox-baiting discussions will testify.

Is there anyone on this thread who doesn't share Claire's inability to control her own actions? I wonder whether this is an affliction peculiar to pro-hunters.
		
Click to expand...

Will the real PaulT please stand up


----------



## PaulT (1 June 2012)

Has none of the pro-hunters here got a mind of his/her own?

Not to worry, help is at hand. I thought the introduction is particularly apt:

"One big problem a lot of people have is that they slip into thinking of themselves as victims that have little or no control over their lives. In this headspace you feel sorry for yourself, the world seems to be against you and you get stuck. Little to no action is taken and you get lost in a funk of sadness and self-pity."

Just think, you could take Claire on a journey of group therapy to overcome this debilitating affliction.


----------



## Alec Swan (1 June 2012)

Those who are pro-hunting,  who are determined to argue with those who are staunchly opposed,  are on a hiding to nothing.  It's a completely pointless waist of time,  as the views of both sides are so entrenched as to make any form of progress impossible.

Most of the Antis have no interest whatsoever in wildlife,  but argue from the point of view of their perceived class structure,  and offer puerile arguments with no interest in resolve.

It must be obvious to all that Pault and the rest of his curious but occasionally entertaining friends,  are only interested in mischief and they have no interest in considering the views of those who's lives they do their best to disrupt.  They seem to me to only be interested in forms of wildlife protection which are actually counter productive and through their blinkered and distorted view of the world,  they seem to cause more distress than those who hunt.

I refuse to debate with imbeciles,  and I would suggest that those of you who follow my example will save a deal of your time.  It's your choice,  but do bear in mind that you are being toyed with.  Play into their hands if you wish,  it's your choice.

Good night.

Alec.


----------



## Fiagai (2 June 2012)

Well said Alec. I would also suggest that there is nothing to add to a vacuum so therefore any further 'discussion' is a you say pointless.


----------

