# Done to death I know but rider weight?



## poiuytrewq (9 July 2017)

What kind of weight would it be ok for a 15hh lightish cob to carry? He's a little toughie who always gets a clean bill of health off any and every back person/physio etc who has ever seen him. 
Rider is a decent rider and well balanced.


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## L&M (9 July 2017)

If it is a show type cob then I believe in the 'ring' a lightweight cob should be able to take up to 14 stone, and a heavyweight over 14 stone......

My cob is 15hh and would describe him as a l/w and has no problem with my 12 stone partner on him if that helps!


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## Leo Walker (9 July 2017)

L&M said:



			If it is an Irish cob then I believe in the 'showing' world a lightweight cob should be able to take up to 14 stone, and a heavyweight over 14 stone.
		
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And thats for a days hunting!


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## poiuytrewq (9 July 2017)

Thanks. It's such a sensitive issue! 
My daughter has gained a fair bit of weight and I'm worried about her riding! 
I have no clue what she weighs and she would never tell me (she knows she's not skinny)


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## Llee94 (9 July 2017)

If he is managing and is getting a clean bill of health, then I wouldn't worry to much if she is well balanced in the saddle.


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## rara007 (9 July 2017)

The horse knows best what he can carry- if he's as happy as ever then that's your answer


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## poiuytrewq (10 July 2017)

He's fine and to be fair she's so busy that she only rides once or twice a week now. I do him the rest of the time


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## DD (10 July 2017)

the RIDER , dressed to ride ( wearing at boots etc not naked on the scales at home!)to be no more than 15% of the horses weight  assuming the horse is at condition score 3 ie not too fat or too thin. less if horse is overweight or undeveloped eg a youngster. And I don't want to hear any rubbish about the horse carrying a heavy person who can ride well they are still too heavy no matter how good a rider they are.


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## jgmbng (10 July 2017)

That's me never being able to ride my 13.1, leg at each corner micro cob again !
So this rule applies whatever the build of the horse/pony and the rider ability ?


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## Antw23uk (10 July 2017)

Went on a fun ride at the weekend ... my god some of the riders ... too overweight and on too small a pony/ horse. Its pretty disgusting how some people think its acceptable to ride when there arse is bigger than the pony they are riding! It makes me so angry!

Yes shout me down, tell me im insensitive and rude, I do not care. Fat people riding horses and ponies is not healthy!


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## Farma (10 July 2017)

Downton Dame said:



			the RIDER , dressed to ride ( wearing at boots etc not naked on the scales at home!)to be no more than 15% of the horses weight  assuming the horse is at condition score 3 ie not too fat or too thin. less if horse is overweight or undeveloped eg a youngster. And I don't want to hear any rubbish about the horse carrying a heavy person who can ride well they are still too heavy no matter how good a rider they are.
		
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I agree with this, I think there are a lot of riders are way over this and don't admit it whilst their poor horses tolerate it.

I really wish their were a general ruling across the board as debatable as it may be because some of the shocking sights I see, especially at dressage should be stopped, there is no rule for the judge to refer to so nothing can be said, its really sad and desperately needs looking at. I feel so sorry for some horses


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## Wagtail (10 July 2017)

Downton Dame said:



			the RIDER , dressed to ride ( wearing at boots etc not naked on the scales at home!)to be no more than 15% of the horses weight  assuming the horse is at condition score 3 ie not too fat or too thin. less if horse is overweight or undeveloped eg a youngster. And I don't want to hear any rubbish about the horse carrying a heavy person who can ride well they are still too heavy no matter how good a rider they are.
		
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I agree with this, but such a difficult and delicate situation for the OP. Often people can be a lot heavier or a lot lighter than they look too.


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## jgmbng (10 July 2017)

Not sure I would be considered 'fat' at 9 stone 5.


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## Wagtail (10 July 2017)

jgmbng said:



			That's me never being able to ride my 13.1, leg at each corner micro cob again !
So this rule applies whatever the build of the horse/pony and the rider ability ?
		
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My own view is that the smaller the horse the bigger percentage of its weight it is able to comfortably carry, so long as it never goes beyond 20% including tack. For the average medium-sized horse I think that 15% is a good rule of thumb.


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## Antw23uk (10 July 2017)

jgmbng said:



			Not sure I would be considered 'fat' at 9 stone 5.
		
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I wouldnt consider you 'fat' at 9.5 stone .. but if i saw you on a 13.1 pony I might think you too heavy/ big!


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## ester (10 July 2017)

There can't be a general ruling because there is no decent info to back it up just a whole heap of opinions and far too many variables. Having never had frank on a weighbridge fit or otherwise I'd be guessing anyway  but going off what he was doing aged 23 and how happy the vet and Physio always were with him I reckon we did ok


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## jgmbng (10 July 2017)

ester said:



			There can't be a general ruling because there is no decent info to back it up just a whole heap of opinions and far too many variables. Having never had frank on a weighbridge fit or otherwise I'd be guessing anyway  but going off what he was doing aged 23 and how happy the vet and Physio always were with him I reckon we did ok 

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Agree..

My vet and physiotherapist have both said my weight/height not a problem, for my micro cob and I don't really care what I 'look' like.


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## jgmbng (10 July 2017)

Antw23uk said:



			I wouldnt consider you 'fat' at 9.5 stone .. but if i saw you on a 13.1 pony I might think you too heavy/ big!
		
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Lovely...thanks.


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## OldNag (10 July 2017)

Antw23uk said:



			Went on a fun ride at the weekend ... my god some of the riders ... too overweight and on too small a pony/ horse. Its pretty disgusting how some people think its acceptable to ride when there arse is bigger than the pony they are riding! It makes me so angry!

Yes shout me down, tell me im insensitive and rude, I do not care. Fat people riding horses and ponies is not healthy!
		
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I saw quite a few there... I wonder if the organisers said anything?


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## Sussexbythesea (10 July 2017)

ester said:



			There can't be a general ruling because there is no decent info to back it up just a whole heap of opinions and far too many variables. Having never had frank on a weighbridge fit or otherwise I'd be guessing anyway  but going off what he was doing aged 23 and how happy the vet and Physio always were with him I reckon we did ok 

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Agree having just ridden over 200km over 6 days on small Icelandic horses carrying various size adults often at fast paces with no problems and still full of energy at the end it's very much dependent on the particular combination.


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## Sukistokes2 (10 July 2017)

Antw23uk said:



			Yes shout me down, tell me im insensitive and rude, I do not care. Fat people riding horses and ponies is not healthy!
		
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I am going to assume you mean that fat people shouldn't ride horses/ ponies that are too small for their weight. Rather then they shouldn't ride at all. That would cut a lot of people out and make a lot of horses homeless and put them on the slaughter truck. 
If that's what you mean I agree ALL riders , fat or thin, tall or short should carefully select their mount. 

As a fat person I do so. However I would like to point as a short fat person my weight would still be below that of an average man, even through I could do with shifting three stone !? 

It's often hard to accurately measure the weight of a person by looking at them , body shapes can often be misleading.


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## Antw23uk (10 July 2017)

Sukistokes2 said:



			I am going to assume you mean that fat people shouldn't ride horses/ ponies that are too small for their weight. Rather then they shouldn't ride at all. That would cut a lot of people out and make a lot of horses homeless and put them on the slaughter truck. 
If that's what you mean I agree ALL riders , fat or thin, tall or short should carefully select their mount. 

As a fat person I do so. However I would like to point as a short fat person my weight would still be below that of an average man, even through I could do with shifting three stone !? 

It's often hard to accurately measure the weight of a person by looking at them , body shapes can often be misleading.
		
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I think you are right it can be misleading and obviously a very sensitive subject. I think I mean a bit of both to be honest. I think very obese people shouldn't ride until they are fitter but I also think heavy people should consider what type of horse/ pony they ride. 

I think all too often people are quick to say 'oh he's a weight carrier/ bred to carry weight etc' when in actual fact people should be saying no, you are obese and you need to stop making excuses, lose some weight and be fitter to ride that horse!


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## Farma (10 July 2017)

Antw23uk said:



			I think you are right it can be misleading and obviously a very sensitive subject. I think I mean a bit of both to be honest. I think very obese people shouldn't ride until they are fitter but I also think heavy people should consider what type of horse/ pony they ride. 

I think all too often people are quick to say 'oh he's a weight carrier/ bred to carry weight etc' when in actual fact people should be saying no, you are obese and you need to stop making excuses, lose some weight and be fitter to ride that horse!
		
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Definitely! but what is the answer? with the way things have changed over the years its becoming more accepted and nothing is ever said. If there was a ruling for the welfare of horses in general surely nobody would have a problem with that?

I would be shocked if anyone would send there horse to the 'slaughter truck' before they lost some weight?


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## Widgeon (10 July 2017)

Antw23uk said:



			I wouldnt consider you 'fat' at 9.5 stone .. but if i saw you on a 13.1 pony I might think you too heavy/ big!
		
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jgmbng said:



			Lovely...thanks.
		
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Hmmm....I'm quite tall and was 9.5 stone by the age of about 15 - the pony I rode regularly was a 13.2 NF built like a small house, and we used to bomb around the local army training areas, jump small jumps and generally have a whale of a time. I looked like a bit of a tool with my legs at the bottom of her tummy, but she never seemed to notice. And I know very well that if she had been at all unhappy I would have been decked. I think I'd probably agree with the poster who suggested that smaller horses (presumably including natives) can carry a bit more.


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## MotherOfChickens (10 July 2017)

Antw23uk said:



			I wouldnt consider you 'fat' at 9.5 stone .. but if i saw you on a 13.1 pony I might think you too heavy/ big!
		
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what if they were riding an Exmoor? or an Icelandic? or a Haffie? Or a Fell/Dales/Highland?


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## Antw23uk (10 July 2017)

MotherOfChickens said:



			what if they were riding an Exmoor? or an Icelandic? or a Haffie? Or a Fell/Dales/Highland?
		
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This post isnt about me or about me knowing the answers and from experience I am not getting any further involved in the too fat for your horse/ pony debate. As far as im concerned if your arse is bigger than the steed you are riding then you are too fat to be riding it!!


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## stormox (10 July 2017)

L&M said:



			If it is a show type cob then I believe in the 'ring' a lightweight cob should be able to take up to 14 stone, and a heavyweight over 14 stone......

My cob is 15hh and would describe him as a l/w and has no problem with my 12 stone partner on him if that helps!
		
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I honestly think 14stone- and I am assuming you dont mean 14stone rider + tack - is too heavy for ANY lightweight 15hh horse, cob or not.


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## Embo (10 July 2017)

Sukistokes2 said:



			...It's often hard to accurately measure the weight of a person by looking at them , body shapes can often be misleading.
		
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Definitely. 

I'm 5'6'' and weigh just over 13st. I wouldn't say I was vastly overweight, but overweight I am. 

By contrast, my OH is 6'2'' and slim build. He also weighs just over 13st.

I wonder how many people would look at the two of us and guess that either I was much heavier or that my OH was lighter.

A huge problem I think is that people do not know how much the actually weigh and just take a guess (or are in denial about it). I know someone who is much larger than me, but when it came up in conversation once, they put themselves at 12st.


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## poiuytrewq (10 July 2017)

My daughter isn't fat but it's something I may have to bring up at some point if she keeps gaining! I weigh roughly 9.5 ish and she's bigger than me- height and weight wise. They currently look ok together but like I say it's something I've become aware of since she became more independent and I'm no longer her sole source of food!!!


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## Follysmum (10 July 2017)

I do think these ponies can carry more than just a child of 6/7 stone ,  50 odd Years ago when I had my first pony he was ridden by my mum also , it wasn't unusual for 1 pony to be ridden by all the family members.


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## JFTDWS (10 July 2017)

stormox said:



			I honestly think 14stone- and I am assuming you dont mean 14stone rider + tack - is too heavy for ANY lightweight 15hh horse, cob or not.
		
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It may not be your intention, but the inclusion of "15hh" in your description of the inappropriate mount could be taken to imply that a larger horse may be more suitable.  I would suggest that a LW cob-build 17hh horse may well be less suited to carrying 14st than its 15hh counterpart.  I think the issues with % style "rules" is that it feed a general misconception that bigger is better, or that a heavy draught build horse may be an appropriate weight carrier (many really, really aren't). 

Fwiw, I've had 14odd stone on both my highlands - very different riders, different circumstances, but I deemed both to be acceptable for them at the time.


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## MotherOfChickens (10 July 2017)

Follysmum said:



			I do think these ponies can carry more than just a child of 6/7 stone ,  50 odd Years ago when I had my first pony he was ridden by my mum also , it wasn't unusual for 1 pony to be ridden by all the family members.
		
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yes, we had a Section C like that-although my dad was a skinny shortarse.


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## The Fuzzy Furry (10 July 2017)

I usually kill a conversation dead if someone asks to ride mine.

Yes, I'm happy for others to ride, but if I have an inkling that I feel they may be too heavy, then my response is: 
"Well, you wont mind getting on the yard scales with the tack etc before we go any further, do you?"
I've had 2 quick exits on that one....................


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## scats (10 July 2017)

I would say 12-13 stone max for a 15hh light cob.

It's a funny thing, weight.  I am a deceivingly heavy person.  I am 5ft 4, look fairly slender, not skinny, but athletic build I suppose.  I weigh in at 10 stone.  I don't have much fat on me in reality, although I'm constantly on a failed quest to lose weight as I feel I should be about 9.5 stone.  I ride a 14hh chunky cob and I feel that I am (with tack- synthetic saddle etc) the heaviest who should ride her.  Yet I don't look particularly large, I am horribly aware of how heavy I am in reality.  It's my legs I think, they are just absolutely solid from thigh to knee.  
  I have friends the same weight as me who look much larger, but equally, a really skinny friend who weighs the same.  Bizarre.
This was me and her on Saturday-


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## alainax (10 July 2017)

Downton Dame said:



			And I don't want to hear any rubbish about the horse carrying a heavy person who can ride well they are still too heavy no matter how good a rider they are.
		
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This bugs me for 2 reasons, people get it backwards, then it gets thrown back at them backwards! 

Of course you cant "ride light" but you can ride heavy! 12 stone is 12 stone, but that is not to say that a lighter rider would have more of a detrimental impact than a heavier, softer, balanced one.  Riders should chose a suitable mount, which is also taking into consideration their own fitness, skill and flexibility. It is not that the limit is increased by your ability, but lowered by your lack of. 

Flops off high horse and waddles back to soap box....


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## Batgirl (10 July 2017)

Love this old chestnut.
At 5 foot 6 and 16 stone I am 10 kgs under what my horse should carry with tack included.
I am however and athlete and very well balanced.
I would not let someone who is 16 stone and obese and unbalanced on my horse.

I agree with the poster who says riding light is not about being able to ride less than their weight but that someone can ride heavier!

The weight rule is daft for a number of reasons:
1) If my horse is obese apparently he can carry more rider weight
2) If my horse is a tb or a heavyweight cob that weigh the same the same rider weight applies
3) If my horse is young or old it makes no difference
4) If my horse is happy or unhappy it makes no difference
5) There is no robust science behind it


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## Farma (10 July 2017)

Batgirl said:



			Love this old chestnut.
At 5 foot 6 and 16 stone I am 10 kgs under what my horse should carry with tack included.
I am however and athlete and very well balanced.
I would not let someone who is 16 stone and obese and unbalanced on my horse.

I agree with the poster who says riding light is not about being able to ride less than their weight but that someone can ride heavier!

The weight rule is daft for a number of reasons:
1) If my horse is obese apparently he can carry more rider weight
2) If my horse is a tb or a heavyweight cob that weigh the same the same rider weight applies
3) If my horse is young or old it makes no difference
4) If my horse is happy or unhappy it makes no difference
5) There is no robust science behind it
		
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Its not daft if it gives people a general rule of thumb to work with, there has to be a happy medium met as where you would think common sense should prevail with regard to people keeping their weight down to ride there often isn't!

There will always be a million other factors to consider and this is why there is no ruling from a lot of the affiliated bodies because how do you create a rule and police it? 

I think it has to be agreed that something needs to be done and rather than arguing against an idea if there were more suggestion to what would be a good idea to help there be more understanding and for it to become a less emotive subject and a more practical subject that does need guidelines unfortunately due to the increasing size of riders.


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## Batgirl (10 July 2017)

Farma said:



			Its not daft if it gives people a general rule of thumb to work with, there has to be a happy medium met as where you would think common sense should prevail with regard to people keeping their weight down to ride there often isn't!

There will always be a million other factors to consider and this is why there is no ruling from a lot of the affiliated bodies because how do you create a rule and police it? 

I think it has to be agreed that something needs to be done and rather than arguing against an idea if there were more suggestion to what would be a good idea to help there be more understanding and for it to become a less emotive subject and a more practical subject that does need guidelines unfortunately due to the increasing size of riders.
		
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I am arguing against the idea being put forward as black and white as some people do, IMO if this were to be enforced blanket and black and white it would encourage overweight riders to make their horses overweight to compensate at competitions (though how you would weigh the horse separately to the rider...).

I think there should be a guideline rather than a rule and common sense applied however this would take some bravery on the part of the people enforcing it and would inevitably end up in some inconsistencies in application which I would consider to be better than what we have.


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## ester (10 July 2017)

I was discussing with a friend the other day how your perception changes when you aren't the skinny mini you were at 20. I suspect I am heavier than I look and that means I do tell people what I weigh before riding their horses and ponies these days but no one has yet been bothered. My own limits for others on frank have certainly changed with the knowledge of how he has been and given that I have that and several years of evidence I'm not quite sure how someone would convince me he shouldn't carry what he does. I see a few riders I don't think should be riding or on their current mounts but they are few and far between so I'm wondering if it is a phenomenon worse in certain areas?


Interestingly keeping a pony on diy and trying to fit in riding daily has definitely helped my weight situation!


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## Wagtail (10 July 2017)

It's a rubbish rule but it's all we've got. To be honest I am always surprised that some people do not even consider that they may be too heavy for their horses. The majority of threads on here from people worrying about it are from people who are nowhere near too heavy.


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## Antw23uk (10 July 2017)

I'm a guy, I'm 5'7 and weigh nearly 13 stone. I could be fitter but I'm fit enough to run most days, do weights etc. I have a 16.2 ex hunt horse ISH and a 16.1 ISH x Traditional cob. Both are solid leg in each corner types and both more than capable of carrying me fully tacked up. I would not get on my horses if I weighed 16 stone! 

Now me and weight is a sore subject and I'm probably body dysmorphic to a certain extent (with myself only). I suffered from bulimia as a teenager and into my early twenties so my brain doesnt compute weight very well, be that healthy or bad but in my head I would not let anyone as heavy as 16 stone ride my horses and people can sing until the cows come home about how healthy they are but I cannot see how being 5'6 and 16 stone is healthy or 'athletic' I just cannot see that, sorry.


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## Batgirl (10 July 2017)

Antw23uk said:



			I'm a guy, I'm 5'7 and weigh nearly 13 stone. I could be fitter but I'm fit enough to run most days, do weights etc. I have a 16.2 ex hunt horse ISH and a 16.1 ISH x Traditional cob. Both are solid leg in each corner types and both more than capable of carrying me fully tacked up. I would not get on my horses if I weighed 16 stone! 

Now me and weight is a sore subject and I'm probably body dysmorphic to a certain extent (with myself only). I suffered from bulimia as a teenager and into my early twenties so my brain doesnt compute weight very well, be that healthy or bad but in my head I would not let anyone as heavy as 16 stone ride my horses and people can sing until the cows come home about how healthy they are but I cannot see how being 5'6 and 16 stone is healthy or 'athletic' I just cannot see that, sorry.
		
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I am an ex north of england rugby player, I run 10ks, swim open water long distance and do triathlons, cycle 40miles easily and more. I can deadlift over 100kgs, push 160kgs on a prowler.  I promise you I am an athlete, a very muscley and heavy athlete.  Whether you see it or not doesn't make it any less true (if it gets the point across my personal trainer thought his scales were broken when he weighed me until he saw my strenght)

I am honest about my weight, I bought a horse to carry my weight (who at a fit lean weight I come in well under the 15% 'rule' and do not ride other peoples horses. My horses back and saddle are checked 6 monthly (and are fine) and he takes me on miles of hacking, galloping on beaches and we are working towards medium dressage.


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## Frumpoon (10 July 2017)

Muscle weighs more than fat so perhaps weight alone is not the right metric


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## poiuytrewq (10 July 2017)

Frumpoon said:



			Muscle weighs more than fat so perhaps weight alone is not the right metric
		
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Is that not irrelevant really though. 
A rider weighing 15 stone say weighs 15 stone weather it's a very fit muscley rider or a unfit rider who's just fat (nb I'm not saying 15 stone is fat simply that 15 stone of fat is the same as 15 stone of muscle!)


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## Frumpoon (10 July 2017)

Ok fair dos

However one thing - went to an unaffiliated jumping about a month ago and there were a high number of riders who were not I suppose too heavy for their horses but were very very unfit, flopping around, out of breath half way round the course, giving no clear aids, jabbing horses mouths etc etc


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## Frumpoon (10 July 2017)

Ok fair dos

However one thing - went to an unaffiliated jumping about a month ago and there were a high number of riders who were not I suppose too heavy for their horses but were very very unfit, flopping around, out of breath half way round the course, giving no clear aids, jabbing horses mouths etc etc


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## KittenInTheTree (10 July 2017)

Downton Dame said:



			the RIDER , dressed to ride ( wearing at boots etc not naked on the scales at home!)to be no more than 15% of the horses weight  assuming the horse is at condition score 3 ie not too fat or too thin. less if horse is overweight or undeveloped eg a youngster. And I don't want to hear any rubbish about the horse carrying a heavy person who can ride well they are still too heavy no matter how good a rider they are.
		
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I don't trust this calculation as 15% of my cob's weight would work out several stone more than I'm prepared to put on him! He has just a smidgeon over 10" of bone, so he's not a lightweight by any means. Would be interested in what would be considered an acceptable rider weight for him tbh.


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## fornema (10 July 2017)

Batgirl said:



			Love this old chestnut.
At 5 foot 6 and 16 stone I am 10 kgs under what my horse should carry with tack included.
I am however and athlete and very well balanced.
I would not let someone who is 16 stone and obese and unbalanced on my horse.

I agree with the poster who says riding light is not about being able to ride less than their weight but that someone can ride heavier!

The weight rule is daft for a number of reasons:
1) If my horse is obese apparently he can carry more rider weight
2) If my horse is a tb or a heavyweight cob that weigh the same the same rider weight applies
3) If my horse is young or old it makes no difference
4) If my horse is happy or unhappy it makes no difference
5) There is no robust science behind it
		
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This exactly! The weight rule is completely daft! 

For example, I cycle 15 miles to/from work, walk a couple of miles and ride for 2 hrs a day and therefore i would call myself reasonably fit and have reasonable muscle weight. I weigh in between 60-62kg, would you therefore equate me to an unfit, overweight, unbalanced rider of the same weight, i doubt it.

Both horses easily carry me, one at 13.2 and the other 17.2/3 4yr old - in fact i would say i am almost too light for the 17.2/3 as she can very easily chuck my weight out of the saddle by just being a little too powerful trot. This said because of her age i would not allow someone who is 17stone which is 15% of her weight to get on her.

The 13.2 goes out and wins everytime out round 90/95cm and is ridden largely schooling or fitness work 5 or 6 days a week, she still manages to haul me round miles of canter tracks and would be the first to say no!

It is entirely based on the build, age and back length of the horse and the larger the horse the less the horse is able to carry per kilo.


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## Gloi (11 July 2017)

I used to do some vetted endurance rides and I think that taking the heart/respiration rate of the horse/pony before and after work as they do there gives a good idea of how well he is coping with what he is being asked to do rather than any fixed figures.


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## Batgirl (11 July 2017)

poiuytrewq said:



			Is that not irrelevant really though. 
A rider weighing 15 stone say weighs 15 stone weather it's a very fit muscley rider or a unfit rider who's just fat (nb I'm not saying 15 stone is fat simply that 15 stone of fat is the same as 15 stone of muscle!)
		
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Agree it is irrelevant in rider weight, I am 16 stone, the fact that it is all muscle does not make me lighter.  It does make me fitter, more balanced etc so I ride 'lighter' than someone 16 stone and unfit.  But 16 stone is 16 stone!


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## AShetlandBitMeOnce (11 July 2017)

This is a touchy subject, and having a history of eating disorders I perhaps have a skewed idea of weight but I personally don't think anyone above 17 stone should ride anything. Just my opinion. Regardless of how much bone the horse has, it is still a lot of weight concentrated into an area on their back the size of the saddle. 

I am currently 12.5 stone and wouldn't ride a TB of any sort, I would feel uncomfortable on a ISH type under 16.2hh and the same again on a H/W cob type under 15.2hh.. but that's probably purely down to my skewed idea of how big I am. I used to question often if I was too heavy for my short backed 18hh-er at 12stone.   However I would much rather people are cautious, just because they can carry, doesn't mean they should. Especially a 13hh Section C with a 12 stone rider; there's one round here that makes me despair!


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## AandK (11 July 2017)

...


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## Orangehorse (11 July 2017)

TBs carry 12st 7 lb for racing, but that is including the saddle, so I wouldn't be to worried about riding a TB.  I noticed at the last point to point I went to that most of the horses running were carrying 12 stone.

But I agree with you about 17 stone being the maximum weight anyone should be for riding.  There just comes a point where it is too much.

I had a horse for sale once, one of the reasons was that I felt under horsed and too heavy for her, and someone wanted to buy her who was much bigger than me and I wouldn't sell the horse to her. Although I didn't say it was because it was because she was too heavy, I made some other feeble excuse.


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## KittenInTheTree (11 July 2017)

Personally, I won't ride at all whilst I'm over 12 stone, and as such I've been quietly losing weight since May 2016, by eating sensibly and exercising. I started this year with only six more pounds to lose, but then in March we gave in to peer pressure and got a car. Worst idea ever. My weight shot back up, my overall fitness levels dropped, and I've been battling with it ever since. Frustratingly, I've gone down two sizes in jodhpurs since May of last year but I'm actually heavier now than I was then. Yes, a lot of it is muscle but as my knees can confirm, too heavy is still too heavy. And now for the really fun part: according to MFP, I don't eat anywhere near enough for my activity levels, and this is what's slowing down my weight loss! TBH I'm flummoxed


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## Wagtail (11 July 2017)

KittenInTheTree said:



			Personally, I won't ride at all whilst I'm over 12 stone, and as such I've been quietly losing weight since May 2016, by eating sensibly and exercising. I started this year with only six more pounds to lose, but then in March we gave in to peer pressure and got a car. Worst idea ever. My weight shot back up, my overall fitness levels dropped, and I've been battling with it ever since. Frustratingly, I've gone down two sizes in jodhpurs since May of last year but I'm actually heavier now than I was then. Yes, a lot of it is muscle but as my knees can confirm, too heavy is still too heavy. And now for the really fun part: according to MFP, I don't eat anywhere near enough for my activity levels, and this is what's slowing down my weight loss! TBH I'm flummoxed 

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Have you had your thyroid checked? Are you on any medication? Both of these can alter the amount of food you need to maintain your weight.


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## MrsNorris (11 July 2017)

The Animal Health Trust is currently recruiting horses to run a study on exactly this so we might soon have some proper science based information. They are only studying the short-term effects, but it's a start. I'm in the 15% max camp personally.


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## huskydamage (11 July 2017)

Blimey! It's a wonder anybody rides at all looking at some of these.  
Out of interest does anyone know of any actual incidents were a horse was damaged by overweight rider? I can think of one were a big fat bloke sat on a minature donkey but that is exteme. Anyone have any actual experiences of having to get a vet out etc?  not working horses like leisure people/horses.


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## rachk89 (11 July 2017)

I do worry that I am too heavy for my horse and may have caused his kissing spine, or at least helped it along as the vet said it was down to conformation. 

I do need to lose weight although people say I dont, but I do. I'm 5'8", more muscle than fat (in my legs in particular), and weigh I think around 13st 8lbs now because I havent been riding for the past 2 months because my horse has been off with the kissing spine problem. He was weighed at the vets and he came in at 578kg, but he wasnt fully standing on the scales as he was scared of them, he had one hoof half off, but it was the best we could get. He probably does weigh closer to 600kg, which gives his 15% weight limit at 14stone, but I still feel I am too heavy really. Going to lose weight to help him out and so if I did cause this, I dont in the future.


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## ester (11 July 2017)

huskydamage said:



			Blimey! It's a wonder anybody rides at all looking at some of these.  
Out of interest does anyone know of any actual incidents were a horse was damaged by overweight rider? I can think of one were a big fat bloke sat on a minature donkey but that is exteme. Anyone have any actual experiences of having to get a vet out etc?  not working horses like leisure people/horses.
		
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well from the posts and photos on here over the years I don't think I have ever seen one horse with a physical issue being investigated that I have thought 'well that is clearly because XYZ user is overweight for that horse'. In fact those on here for whom some have expressed the views that they are too large for their mounts seem to have some of the soundest, happiest, issue free beasts .


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## [59668] (11 July 2017)

Sometimes I see things that make me think the rider is far too large for the horse.  But, dare I say it, I'm 74kg and my pony is a 13.2 NF x cob.  I am a weightlifter though, so hardly obese.  And am 5ft3.  We hack and jump tiny courses, and judging by how she is able to bog off with me I don't think she has any issues!


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## cally23 (11 July 2017)

So glad I just checked into the forum, OH snickers bar is now back in his secret stash draw


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## poiuytrewq (11 July 2017)

cally23 said:



			So glad I just checked into the forum, OH snickers bar is now back in his secret stash draw 

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Haha! I so wish there was a secret stash drawer in this house!


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## Farma (11 July 2017)

MrsNorris said:



			The Animal Health Trust is currently recruiting horses to run a study on exactly this so we might soon have some proper science based information. They are only studying the short-term effects, but it's a start. I'm in the 15% max camp personally.
		
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That's good to hear and exactly what is needed and not soon enough!


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## cally23 (11 July 2017)

poiuytrewq said:



			Haha! I so wish there was a secret stash drawer in this house!
		
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It has been a necessity, as I have felt to heavy for my cob, so I have lost a stone, 13 sounds and feels so much better than 14! I still want to lose at least one more. If I see sweet things, especially chocolate, I am a gonna but somehow (most) of the time, I totally forget about his (I can eat anything - God don't you just hate that?) not so secret stash.


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## AandK (11 July 2017)

huskydamage said:



			Blimey! It's a wonder anybody rides at all looking at some of these.  
Out of interest does anyone know of any actual incidents were a horse was damaged by overweight rider? I can think of one were a big fat bloke sat on a minature donkey but that is exteme. Anyone have any actual experiences of having to get a vet out etc?  not working horses like leisure people/horses.
		
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I expect it is more of a cumulative effect, so I doubt there would be many stories where 'damage' is attributed to an overweight rider.  There are probably horses who have had soft tissue injuries which may have been exacerbated by their rider being a bit too heavy for that particular horse.


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## poiuytrewq (11 July 2017)

cally23 said:



			It has been a necessity, as I have felt to heavy for my cob, so I have lost a stone, 13 sounds and feels so much better than 14! I still want to lose at least one more. If I see sweet things, especially chocolate, I am a gonna but somehow (most) of the time, I totally forget about his (I can eat anything - God don't you just hate that?) not so secret stash.
		
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Well done! It's hard going I know. I'm still considered relatively slim but I've gained over the past years jut a tiny bit here and there and I'm not totally comfortable In myself as it's not how I feel "right" 
So difficult though


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## AShetlandBitMeOnce (11 July 2017)

ester said:



			well from the posts and photos on here over the years I don't think I have ever seen one horse with a physical issue being investigated that I have thought 'well that is clearly because XYZ user is overweight for that horse'. In fact those on here for whom some have expressed the views that they are too large for their mounts seem to have some of the soundest, happiest, issue free beasts .
		
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I don't see how this is the point though...  I don't need to see physical injuries to decide that my horse probably doesn't want to lug someone around that's too heavy. I refer back to ''just because 'it' can, doesn't mean 'it' should''. 

Unless your idea of what we should/shouldn't make a horse do is based solely on whether it will be of any physical detriment to the horse or not.

ETA: Well done to those who have shifted some lb's! Wish I had the same motivation, lacking at the moment!


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## ester (11 July 2017)

Farma said:



			That's good to hear and exactly what is needed and not soon enough!
		
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Don't hold out much hope that it will be better than what we have already iirc their terms for horse recruitment were very narrow (which they have to be but again misses so much)


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## ester (11 July 2017)

AShetlandBitMeOnce said:



			I don't see how this is the point though...  I don't need to see physical injuries to decide that my horse probably doesn't want to lug someone around that's too heavy. I refer back to ''just because 'it' can, doesn't mean 'it' should''. 

Unless your idea of what we should/shouldn't make a horse do is based solely on whether it will be of any physical detriment to the horse or not.

ETA: Well done to those who have shifted some lb's! Wish I had the same motivation, lacking at the moment! 

Click to expand...

Well I do tend to work with evidence so what is too heavy to 'lug' though? How do you define lugging is it something you can observe in the horses way of going? If the horse is going well does that mean it isn't lugging? Or are you putting the emotion/feeling of 'why am I having the lug this around' onto the horse? In which case should we never expect them to physically exert themselves? Is it just the picture 'looking right' which varies from person and doesn't pertain to actual weight as we all carry it differently. It is all subjective opinion which is why I particular picked up the example of the people on here who have been deemed too big by other posters either based on weight or pictures, have owned their equids for many years and those equids are sound, happy and trouble free even as they get older. Whereas there are plenty of posts about issues generally on the forum, daily!


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## AShetlandBitMeOnce (11 July 2017)

ester said:



			Well I do tend to work with evidence so what is too heavy to 'lug' though? How do you define lugging is it something you can observe in the horses way of going? If the horse is going well does that mean it isn't lugging? Or are you putting the emotion/feeling of 'why am I having the lug this around' onto the horse? In which case should we never expect them to physically exert themselves? Is it just the picture 'looking right' which varies from person and doesn't pertain to actual weight as we all carry it differently. It is all subjective opinion which is why I particular picked up the example of the people on here who have been deemed too big by other posters either based on weight or pictures, have owned their equids for many years and those equids are sound, happy and trouble free even as they get older. Whereas there are plenty of posts about issues generally on the forum, daily!
		
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Right okay, I see what you mean!  I suppose my theory that people should judge what is appropriate for the horse to carry without needing physical injury limit would depend on the human sufficiently being able to do so; which is exactly the issue here.


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## Wagtail (11 July 2017)

huskydamage said:



			Blimey! It's a wonder anybody rides at all looking at some of these.  
Out of interest does anyone know of any actual incidents were a horse was damaged by overweight rider? I can think of one were a big fat bloke sat on a minature donkey but that is exteme. Anyone have any actual experiences of having to get a vet out etc?  not working horses like leisure people/horses.
		
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How would you know though? Most damage is cummulative. Most horses are very stoic animals. Those little donkeys still plod along with those fat tourists up the steep hill to Santorini. Where would you draw the line? Is this too heavy? Donkey is clearly charging off with him and doesn't appear to be staggering but most people would say he's too heavy. How do you measure it?


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## ester (11 July 2017)

Yup I understand what you are getting at too  I think we'd all like a nice little formula but it isn't going to happen so I imagine this being debated especially for those in the 'middle range' when I'm far too old to ride . Basically if I chopped my boobs off I reckon that must be pushing a stone  

I'm still in awe of the 100kg deadlift though, I did my first proper squat at 35 kg tonight!


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## Orangehorse (11 July 2017)

I thought the Army had done some weight calculations years ago for horses carrying troops and as packhorses and that was for being on the move all day, not just being ridden for a restricted time.  I know that the horses were regarded as transport, but they did expect them to have a reasonable length of service due to the investment in training.


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## Batgirl (11 July 2017)

ester said:



			Yup I understand what you are getting at too  I think we'd all like a nice little formula but it isn't going to happen so I imagine this being debated especially for those in the 'middle range' when I'm far too old to ride . Basically if I chopped my boobs off I reckon that must be pushing a stone  

I'm still in awe of the 100kg deadlift though, I did my first proper squat at 35 kg tonight!
		
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Thanks  you'll get there, there is a lot of technique involved


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## Leo Walker (11 July 2017)

duplicate


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## Leo Walker (11 July 2017)

Orangehorse said:



			I thought the Army had done some weight calculations years ago for horses carrying troops and as packhorses and that was for being on the move all day, not just being ridden for a restricted time.  I know that the horses were regarded as transport, but they did expect them to have a reasonable length of service due to the investment in training.
		
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It was 25% of their bodyweight


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## Xanthoria (11 July 2017)

ester said:



			Yup I understand what you are getting at too  I think we'd all like a nice little formula but it isn't going to happen
		
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After we get some data from the tests mentioned above, we just need a website where people can enter their own data and each horse can have a weight limit assigned to it. The website might start with a 15% limit and raise or lower the upper weight limit based on the inputs. You could have it set up to ask various questions, such as:

*1. The horse:*
Age
Height
Heart girth, length (to give us weight)
Bone measurement
Body type (light vs cobby)
Condition on Henneke scale
Fitness level
Past history of sore back etc

*2. The rider:*
Height
Weight
Experience level (more experience doesn't mean you weigh less: Less experience means you weigh more, potentially)

*3. Saddlery:*
Type (some saddles distribute weight better)
Weight including additional items
Professionally fitted to horse?

*4. Intended ride:*
Duration
Speed (e.g. all walk, mostly walk with 5 mins of canter etc)
Ambient temperature, wind, rain (hot weather making it harder for the horse etc)
Elevation 
Flat or hilly
Jumps or none
Footing (heavy sand/mud, groomed arena, rocky trails)

It would totally take the guesswork out of the equation, and a lot of the hurt feelings and arguing.


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## Xanthoria (11 July 2017)

Leo Walker said:



			It was 25% of their bodyweight
		
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Right about that yes - I found this info online from 'Horse, Saddles, and Bridles', by Colonel William Carter, 1902. The book goes into great detail on lessons learned in the Civil and Indian Wars regarding maintaining horses, endurance, equipment, and standard practices in the U.S. Cavalry.


The U.S. Cavalry saddle weighed 17 lbs.

Total equipment weight (including saddle, guns, boots, etc) 90 lbs.

Maximum allowed weight of Cavalry trooper 165 lbs.

Preferred weight of Cavalry trooper 130 to 150 lbs.

Average weight of US Cavalry horse 1052 lbs. 

Which makes the max allowed on the horse 272lbs but they preferred to keep it to 237-257lbs, which is 22.5-24.4% of the horse's weight. So not far off but they obviously wanted it lower because they recognized the impact.

About a million went to fight in various overseas wars. They were all either killed or left behind - horses were seen as expendable, so they were worked hard and a 15 year + career was not the goal of the army.

http://www.mustangs4us.com/unused/history_4-20thCentury.htm

So, I think if you want less impact/a longer working life, the army requirements might be reduced.


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## ester (11 July 2017)

Xanthoria said:



			After we get some data from the tests mentioned above, we just need a website where people can enter their own data and each horse can have a weight limit assigned to it. The website might start with a 15% limit and raise or lower the upper weight limit based on the inputs. You could have it set up to ask various questions, such as:

*1. The horse:*
Age
Height
Heart girth, length (to give us weight)
Bone measurement
Body type (light vs cobby)
Condition on Henneke scale
Fitness level
Past history of sore back etc

*2. The rider:*
Height
Weight
Experience level (more experience doesn't mean you weigh less: Less experience means you weigh more, potentially)

*3. Saddlery:*
Type (some saddles distribute weight better)
Weight including additional items
Professionally fitted to horse?

*4. Intended ride:*
Duration
Speed (e.g. all walk, mostly walk with 5 mins of canter etc)
Ambient temperature, wind, rain (hot weather making it harder for the horse etc)
Elevation 
Flat or hilly
Jumps or none
Footing (heavy sand/mud, groomed arena, rocky trails)

It would totally take the guesswork out of the equation, and a lot of the hurt feelings and arguing. 

Click to expand...

but the tests mentioned above aren't going to give you the data you need to generate an accurate algorithm from the above??


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## Leo Walker (11 July 2017)

I havent had chance to look into it properly, but this seems to uggest that they conducted fairly thorough tests to work out the best ratio and type of horse. There arent any references to verify it, but I cant imagine it would be hard to do if you had the time and inclination to look.


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## ester (11 July 2017)

I was talking about the new research plans just in case that is a cross wires situation.


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## KittenInTheTree (11 July 2017)

Wagtail said:



			Have you had your thyroid checked? Are you on any medication? Both of these can alter the amount of food you need to maintain your weight.
		
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Thyroid is fine, thanks, and I'm not currently on any meds that affect metabolism. I used to be on one though, for about twenty years, which is what caused me to end up overweight in the first place. Now I just need to wrap my head around eating more - very small appetite, always have had!


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## Wagtail (11 July 2017)

KittenInTheTree said:



			Thyroid is fine, thanks, and I'm not currently on any meds that affect metabolism. I used to be on one though, for about twenty years, which is what caused me to end up overweight in the first place. Now I just need to wrap my head around eating more - very small appetite, always have had!
		
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I thought you said you were over 12 stone. You are trying to lose weight? Why would you want to eat more? I'm confused.


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## ester (11 July 2017)

Because myfitnesspal has suggested that KITT is not currently consuming sufficient, I guess based on the starvation mode model. I'd think that might be even more of an issue if long term metabolism affecting meds have been a factor, or it at least might make losing weight more complicated.


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## Overread (11 July 2017)

Eating too little encourages the body to put on fat reserves and slow the metabolic rate. Essentially its preparing for a longer period where you might have lower food intake so its doing what it can to maximise what you get; which means less into growth and development and more into fat reserves. 

This can be made worse if you're eating too little to start with and then put yourself on a strict exercise program so you're trying to burn more energy and put the body under even more stress. 

Of course go extreme and increased activity and lower food will break this, but its a very unhealthy way to lose weight. 

Also don't forget that different foods will affect you differently, so its perfectly possible to eat an increased volume of food without it all being high sugar and high fat.


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## {97702} (11 July 2017)

I couldn't care less about BMI or any other stats - if you are concerned that you are too heavy for your horse, you probably are......


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## alainax (11 July 2017)

ester said:



			well from the posts and photos on here over the years I don't think I have ever seen one horse with a physical issue being investigated that I have thought 'well that is clearly because XYZ user is overweight for that horse'. In fact those on here for whom some have expressed the views that they are too large for their mounts seem to have some of the soundest, happiest, issue free beasts .
		
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It's true! The only horses I've know to have recurring back problems or lameness have slim riders. Both good and bad riders I might add! 



AShetlandBitMeOnce said:



			I don't see how this is the point though...  I don't need to see physical injuries to decide that my horse probably doesn't want to lug someone around that's too heavy. I refer back to ''just because 'it' can, doesn't mean 'it' should''. 
! 

Click to expand...

Same could be said about riding in general, or bits, shoes, rugs, stables... 



			
				Lévrier;13589726 said:
			
		


			I couldn't care less about BMI or any other stats - if you are concerned that you are too heavy for your horse, you probably are......
		
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I think the opposite actually, most people who think they are too heavy, usually aren't. Too tall often yes, but from the posters on here at least, rarely  too heavy.


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## ester (11 July 2017)

So on the basis of the weight lifting discussion, and the huge difference it is making to my form, posture, and daily comfort working under load .... maybe they are stronger from the 'lugging'

*aware of huge extrapolation and somewhat off the wall thinking


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## alainax (11 July 2017)

ester said:



			So on the basis of the weight lifting discussion, and the huge difference it is making to my form, posture, and daily comfort working under load .... maybe they are stronger from the 'lugging'

*aware of huge extrapolation and somewhat off the wall thinking  

Click to expand...

Haha I was thinking that but thought I better not open that can of worms


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## Orangehorse (11 July 2017)

Xanthoria said:



			Right about that yes - I found this info online from 'Horse, Saddles, and Bridles', by Colonel William Carter, 1902. The book goes into great detail on lessons learned in the Civil and Indian Wars regarding maintaining horses, endurance, equipment, and standard practices in the U.S. Cavalry.


The U.S. Cavalry saddle weighed 17 lbs.

Total equipment weight (including saddle, guns, boots, etc) 90 lbs.

Maximum allowed weight of Cavalry trooper 165 lbs.

Preferred weight of Cavalry trooper 130 to 150 lbs.

Average weight of US Cavalry horse 1052 lbs. 

Which makes the max allowed on the horse 272lbs but they preferred to keep it to 237-257lbs, which is 22.5-24.4% of the horse's weight. So not far off but they obviously wanted it lower because they recognized the impact.

About a million went to fight in various overseas wars. They were all either killed or left behind - horses were seen as expendable, so they were worked hard and a 15 year + career was not the goal of the army.

http://www.mustangs4us.com/unused/history_4-20thCentury.htm

So, I think if you want less impact/a longer working life, the army requirements might be reduced.
		
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The Army used Morgan horses, although they had more bone than the modern show Morgans, and they were around 15.00 hh but were broad and quite chunky.


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## Meowy Catkin (11 July 2017)

Linking to this old thread as I can't find the magazine with the info at the moment.

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/foru...e-and-weight-carrying-tests&highlight=crabbet

The interesting thing is that it shows that greater 'bone' or even a bigger horse doesn't always equal more weight carrying ability.


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## stormox (12 July 2017)

How do people justify their argument 'a muscled fit 15 stone rider is better for a horses back than a fat blobby 15 stone one'? I would have thought the slim fit muscled one would exert more pressure than a rider with a larger backside surface area? Weight÷ area=pressure......


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## nikkianddave (12 July 2017)

I have a 14.3hh cob and I was 15 stone. he is a medium weight cob and for hacking and schooling with a dressage session weekly he was absolutely fine. It did not affect his happiness or performance whether I rode him or my trainer who is I am guessing around 10 stone. He had a full vet check before he was sold and absolutely no problems with his back etc. I do agree that the level of rider may affect the horse as a rider who cannot carry their weight properly when riding, especially in rising and extended rising trot then this could hurt the horses back.
As long as the horse is happy, is being mounted happily and isn't showing any signs of discomfort he should be fine.

A thing to look out for though is that a heavier rider on a horse with a saddle, the saddle may not fit properly, I would get a saddle fitter out to check that the saddle fits correctly still with a heavier rider. I had this problem at first which was causing him to trip due to the saddle coming too far past his shoulder with me riding. The saddler recommended a thick fleece half pad and a riser on the front which worked wonders for him and didn't ever have any other problems.

good luck


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## Batgirl (12 July 2017)

stormox said:



			How do people justify their argument 'a muscled fit 15 stone rider is better for a horses back than a fat blobby 15 stone one'? I would have thought the slim fit muscled one would exert more pressure than a rider with a larger backside surface area? Weight÷ area=pressure......
		
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In theory (and in practice from what I have seen) it is about how that weight is controlled as not to 'slap' back down in the saddle, or be totally off balance and be putting weight unevenly.


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## Wagtail (12 July 2017)

stormox said:



			How do people justify their argument 'a muscled fit 15 stone rider is better for a horses back than a fat blobby 15 stone one'? I would have thought the slim fit muscled one would exert more pressure than a rider with a larger backside surface area? Weight÷ area=pressure......
		
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But it's all going through the same saddle so makes no difference.


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## Batgirl (12 July 2017)

alainax said:



			Haha I was thinking that but thought I better not open that can of worms 

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Lol, me too (though I think it is true - their back muscles will develop to carry the load theya re asked to carry, so twin ponies, one asked to carry a light rider for years, one asked to carry a heavy one would be muscled in totally different ways, and if you swapped riders the first one would struggle (and the second bog off with it's light load  )


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## stormox (12 July 2017)

Wagtail said:



			But it's all going through the same saddle so makes no difference.
		
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Yes it's all going through the same saddle. But the pressure points under the saddle can be monitored with a pad, and different riders show up different pressure distribution.


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## Leo Walker (12 July 2017)

Batgirl said:



			Lol, me too (though I think it is true - their back muscles will develop to carry the load theya re asked to carry, so twin ponies, one asked to carry a light rider for years, one asked to carry a heavy one would be muscled in totally different ways, and if you swapped riders the first one would struggle (and the second bog off with it's light load  )
		
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When I was riding I always looked for light weight riders to ride mine when I wasn't until my instructor said exactly the same. He was better off carrying similar weights all the time so he was used to it and strong. I stopped riding shortly afterwards so never had the opportunity to test it out, but I think there must be something in it!


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## sbloom (12 July 2017)

I'm glad someone mentioned the saddle, though not in detail.  If the rider is too big for the saddle then the PSI under it will be too high, and there may be issues with clearance and saddle balance.  A horse with a rider too heavy for the saddle may never show healthy back muscle, even if there is no pain associated.  There are a lot of horses with otherwise well fitting saddles who have shallow dents especially under the rear of the saddle, totally panel shaped.

In 8 years of saddle fitting ponies and cobs I have only seen one pony obviously struggling with weight, and it was a small child's pony being ridden by a teenager.  The damage is subtle and cumulative, and along with my colleagues we suspect that carrying too heavy a weight can possibly cause long term joint issues.

Army horses will be carrying the weight over more than the saddle area so I do not believe we should ever be approaching 25% with saddle and rider.  Highland ponies carry massive stags but they're not draped over a 17" saddle!

Short backed cobs etc are often rated as the best weight carriers but can often only take small saddles.  Sadly the longer the back the weaker, on average.

Once over the 15% mark then I would recommend as a minimum that a bulky saddle pad is used, preferably a good shock absorbing one, that "bounces back" where the flocking cannot.  Flocking can get compressed very quickly by a heavier rider which causes ongoing fitting issues.

As a saddle fitter I try never to offend (I hope my customers would almost all say that I'm kind with them ), but sometimes it does need saying that the rider is too heavy - unfortunately until all fitters, vets, physical therapists etc sing from the same hymn sheet I will lose work from doing so.


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## Damnation (12 July 2017)

I don't ride anymore because 1) I know I weigh too much and 2) my horse is retired through injury anyway (not through my fat arse but through a muscle tear we think she sustained catching her hindquater on a gate or something).

However, when I was younger I had a mare on loan and she was quite long in the back anyway but it was VERY dipped - her old owner was rather large and apparently the mare's back had been "normal" until this larger lady owned her....

But this was many years ago, if it is true I do not know as with a longer back it was always going to be prone to dipping..


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## Wagtail (12 July 2017)

sbloom said:



			I'm glad someone mentioned the saddle, though not in detail.  If the rider is too big for the saddle then the PSI under it will be too high, and there may be issues with clearance and saddle balance.  A horse with a rider too heavy for the saddle may never show healthy back muscle, even if there is no pain associated.  There are a lot of horses with otherwise well fitting saddles who have shallow dents especially under the rear of the saddle, totally panel shaped.

In 8 years of saddle fitting ponies and cobs I have only seen one pony obviously struggling with weight, and it was a small child's pony being ridden by a teenager.  The damage is subtle and cumulative, and along with my colleagues we suspect that carrying too heavy a weight can possibly cause long term joint issues.

Army horses will be carrying the weight over more than the saddle area so I do not believe we should ever be approaching 25% with saddle and rider.  Highland ponies carry massive stags but they're not draped over a 17" saddle!

Short backed cobs etc are often rated as the best weight carriers but can often only take small saddles.  Sadly the longer the back the weaker, on average.

Once over the 15% mark then I would recommend as a minimum that a bulky saddle pad is used, preferably a good shock absorbing one, that "bounces back" where the flocking cannot.  Flocking can get compressed very quickly by a heavier rider which causes ongoing fitting issues.

As a saddle fitter I try never to offend (I hope my customers would almost all say that I'm kind with them ), but sometimes it does need saying that the rider is too heavy - unfortunately until all fitters, vets, physical therapists etc sing from the same hymn sheet I will lose work from doing so.
		
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What an informative post. Thank you. We often hear on here how vets, physios, instructors etc have said a rider is fine. But in reality, there are very few who would tell someone the truth if it is that they are too heavy for their horse. I did try many years ago with a livery. She was a big girl for her age and was fine when she arrived with a 14hh stocky cob and she was only 11. However, 8 years later and over 15 stone, the horse had all kinds of physical issues. KS, PSD, shoulder lameness. I tried to be tactful and never said she was 'fat' but suggested she may need to think about getting a larger horse as she was no longer a child. It fell on deaf ears. I personally wouldn't bother saying anything to a livery now. It only causes hurt feelings and usually has no effect.


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## Leo Walker (12 July 2017)

Wagtail said:



			What an informative post. Thank you. We often hear on here how vets, physios, instructors etc have said a rider is fine. But in reality, there are very few who would tell someone the truth if it is that they are too heavy for their horse.
		
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You always say this and its not been my experience at all. In fact I had a discussion with my saddle fitter the other day about how I am too heavy for my current horse and would possibly always be too heavy even with a substantial amount of weight lost with his current saddle set up. And a similar conversation with my back lady a month or so ago, where we discussed what weight would be ok and how my current weight isnt ok. 

All of these people and lots more said I was fine to ride my last horse when I was lighter than I am currently but still at a weight that you find unacceptable. The majority of those people said it when I didnt ride him and had no intention of riding him, so they were under no pressure to say something to keep my business/not be embarrassed etc, etc.


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## ester (12 July 2017)

Not my experience either Leo .


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## Wagtail (12 July 2017)

Leo Walker said:



			You always say this and its not been my experience at all. In fact I had a discussion with my saddle fitter the other day about how I am too heavy for my current horse and would possibly always be too heavy even with a substantial amount of weight lost with his current saddle set up. And a similar conversation with my back lady a month or so ago, where we discussed what weight would be ok and how my current weight isnt ok. 

All of these people and lots more said I was fine to ride my last horse when I was lighter than I am currently but still at a weight that you find unacceptable. The majority of those people said it when I didnt ride him and had no intention of riding him, so they were under no pressure to say something to keep my business/not be embarrassed etc, etc.
		
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The difference is how you ask them. If someone who I thought was too heavy came to me and said ' I think I am too heavy for my horse, what do you think?' Then I would agree they were too heavy. However, I would not just tell someone who did not ask me that they were too heavy. Most people who are definitely too heavy do not even mention it. Also, if someone who was very sensitive and I knew had a real problem with their self esteme asked me if I thought they were too heavy, I may hesitate to tell them the truth. And that is me; someone who feels very strongly about horses not being made to carry too much weight. Other people who do not feel that strongly are even less likely to tell someone.


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## ester (12 July 2017)

You're assuming people ask and start the conversation, sometimes people do just tell them, just because you wouldn't doesn't mean others don't.


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## Wagtail (12 July 2017)

ester said:



			Not my experience either Leo .
		
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Are you saying this as an overweight person? I have no idea if you are or not. The facts are that people are worried about others' feelings regarding weight and would avoid telling them in most circumstances. I say that as someone who sees it all the time and have only once attempted to tell someone. You only see what people tell you personally, not what the majority of people are thinking.


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## stormox (12 July 2017)

I would (politely) attempt to discuss with an owner on my yard ANY form of cruelty, and how to remedy it. I would feel it my duty as a YO.


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## sbloom (12 July 2017)

Leo I'm really glad this has been your experience but it's not mine.  Did you bring the subject up or did they?  

And there is pressure, societal pressure, whatever, even if you're not riding the horse.  People worry that they're being rude, I worry about causing riders distress, that they may have SERIOUS food/diet issues and I'm going to trigger them.  I have got braver over the years but it's never easy, the horse HAS to be my priority, I just will try my best to be as tactful and objective, and sympathetic/empathetic, as possible.  I'm not a skinny minny myself but I don't look as heavy as I am for my height.  

Riders will tell you to your face that you've been very tactful, and even post publicly about it, then go away and never come back.  There can be a real emotional delay, and a delay in realising what the implications are.  It's NOT a small issue especially in this day and age when we're ALL trying to be supportive, feminist, not be body nazis etc.


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## Wagtail (12 July 2017)

ester said:



			You're assuming people ask and start the conversation, sometimes people do just tell them, just because you wouldn't doesn't mean others don't.
		
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I have never known anyone be told by a vet or instructor they are too heavy for their horse.


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## Wagtail (12 July 2017)

sbloom said:



			Leo I'm really glad this has been your experience but it's not mine.  Did you bring the subject up or did they?  

And there is pressure, societal pressure, whatever, even if you're not riding the horse.  People worry that they're being rude, I worry about causing riders distress, that they may have SERIOUS food/diet issues and I'm going to trigger them.  I have got braver over the years but it's never easy, the horse HAS to be my priority, I just will try my best to be as tactful and objective, and sympathetic/empathetic, as possible.  I'm not a skinny minny myself but I don't look as heavy as I am for my height.  

Riders will tell you to your face that you've been very tactful, and even post publicly about it, then go away and never come back.  There can be a real emotional delay, and a delay in realising what the implications are.  It's NOT a small issue especially in this day and age when we're ALL trying to be supportive, feminist, not be body nazis etc.
		
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Well said. It takes a lot of guts to tell someone, and more so if it may impact on your business. When I started out in the livery business, I used to try and help people by stepping in where I thought there were issues. Now I don't. I would if it was DIY and the horse was being neglected, but at least running a full livery service, that would never happen. But I have learned over the years that people don't thank you for advice that they find at all painful, and that includes being too heavy for their horse.


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## sbloom (12 July 2017)

I also get really annoyed by selecting seat size by length of thigh as the Thorowgood site, it's MUCH more about hip measurement.  Mine is around 40-41" and I need a 17.5 saddle, simple.  I am 5'8", so it suits me in flap length and block placement as well, but if we could have an honest discussion about bum size and saddle size it would help, a lot.  Someone who is only 5' but has a similar hip measurement will need the same seat size give or take but the flap will swamp them, especially as extra "padding" makes you sit high off the saddle so the block placement is all wrong, and it makes the flap fit EVEN longer so it needs customising in an ideal world.  Those sort of customisations cost money.


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## sbloom (12 July 2017)

Wagtail said:



			Well said. It takes a lot of guts to tell someone, and more so if it may impact on your business. When I started out in the livery business, I used to try and help people by stepping in where I thought there were issues. Now I don't. I would if it was DIY and the horse was being neglected, but at least running a full livery service, that would never happen. But I have learned over the years that people don't thank you for advice that they find at all painful, and that includes being too heavy for their horse.
		
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When it's a borderline case I try and feel that at least I will find the best possible fit to mitigate the issues, and recommend a sheepskin pad etc.


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## Wagtail (12 July 2017)

stormox said:



			I would (politely) attempt to discuss with an owner on my yard ANY form of cruelty, and how to remedy it. I would feel it my duty as a YO.
		
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The problem with weight though, is that it's subjective. We have no scientific evidence and so what one person thinks is a cruel amount of weight to put on a horse, another would completely disagree and think you are being rude, interfering and offensive. What I see as too heavy, I have no evidence for. If we had some proper research, then it would then become less personal. It would just be a fact. Like not feeding a horse, or not giving it company, or not exercising it for weeks and then having a blast on it for two hours. All of these things I would step in with. But weight, not anymore. Not whilst it all boils down to personal opinion.


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## ester (12 July 2017)

Wagtail said:



			Are you saying this as an overweight person? I have no idea if you are or not. The facts are that people are worried about others' feelings regarding weight and would avoid telling them in most circumstances. I say that as someone who sees it all the time and have only once attempted to tell someone. You only see what people tell you personally, not what the majority of people are thinking.
		
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See my other response. I am speaking both from experience of seeing other people told without asking and a conversation initiated by my instructor at the time once, although that would have been at a point where a change in my weight would have been more noticeable which is why I suspect it was brought up. And yes she would have known I was not in a good place at the time (and that I are the pony were in different counties) but we still had that conversation so again I am just saying that just because you wouldn't say anything and find it awkward it is my experience that people do have full and frank discussions about this, not always instigated by the rider.

It is definitely something people struggle with the concept of, and what weights do and don't look like so people are often looking at the asthetic view too not the facts. I was invited to ride another horse on the yard while mine was off, the advert that subsequently went up for him requested someone 2.5 stone lighter than I was at the time. (And he was a lovely irish type so not one I was concerned about my then weight on or I would have spoken to them about it).


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## cobgoblin (12 July 2017)

Wagtail said:



			I have never known anyone be told by a vet or instructor they are too heavy for their horse.
		
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There is a vet in Kent who covers various horsey events...if she considers someone too heavy for their horse she will not allow them to participate.


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## Wagtail (12 July 2017)

ester said:



			See my other response. I am speaking both from experience of seeing other people told without asking and a conversation initiated by my instructor at the time once, although that would have been at a point where a change in my weight would have been more noticeable which is why I suspect it was brought up. And yes she would have known I was not in a good place at the time (and that I are the pony were in different counties) but we still had that conversation so again I am just saying that just because you wouldn't say anything and find it awkward it is my experience that people do have full and frank discussions about this, not always instigated by the rider.
		
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Fair enough. Our experience is different, but both true. I wonder how to design a poll to find out? 

What would you personally find too heavy on say a 15.2 TB? I'm trying to get a weight that would be definitely too heavy but not as extreme as you sometimes see and causes outrage. Could anyone answer this question? Then I could do a poll asking whether people would give unsolicited advice to someone that they are too heavy for the horse, or only if asked, or not at all.


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## Wagtail (12 July 2017)

cobgoblin said:



			There is a vet in Kent who covers various horsey events...if she considers someone too heavy for their horse she will not allow them to participate.
		
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That's good. I wish there were more. What would you consider too heavy for a 15.2 TB? Average build and fitness.


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## sbloom (12 July 2017)

I would personally add saddle seat size to that, a 17" saddle for example, 18" footprint so small to medium for an adult, a typical fit on that size of horse.


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## Leo Walker (12 July 2017)

sbloom said:



			Leo I'm really glad this has been your experience but it's not mine.  Did you bring the subject up or did they?.
		
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With the previous horse it started with a vet calling me stupid and telling me to get on and ride when I said I didnt ride him, followed by my back lady at the time saying she had done her research paper into weight carrying abilities and I was more than fine. Then I had another vet out specifically to discuss weight carrying with the view that I thought I was too heavy. 

There have been lots of other people,all qualified and respected people in their own fields, who all said it was fine. I always brought it up along the lines of I think I might be too heavy for him. I'm not a sensitive person about it which is obvious from the way I talk about it. I even had an instructor out to look at me riding to give me an objective opinion. The only people who ever said I was too heavy were a handful of people on here. Wagtail said she would only allow a maximum of 10 stone on him including tack, which was 5 to 6 stones lighter than the qualified professionals who saw him.

Current horse I didnt actually bring it up, the saddler did and told me in no uncertain terms that I was too heavy. As it happens I know this and hes predominantly a driving horse, I only needed a saddle as other people ride him occasionally. With the back lady I cant remember how it came up but it was in the context of what would be a suitable weight for him as people on the yard wanted me to ride him and couldn't believe I didnt and I wanted a proper opinion to tell them why it wasnt ok. 

As it happens I dont actually think I will be able to ride again even if I lose weight as my back problems cant be rectified with surgery as I had hoped and actually I am obsessed with driving, and its much more suitable for someone who is now permanently disabled.


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## Wagtail (12 July 2017)

Leo Walker said:



			The only people who ever said I was too heavy were a handful of people on here. Wagtail said she would only allow a maximum of 10 stone on him including tack, which was 5 to 6 stones lighter than the qualified professionals who saw him.
		
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Which horse was that? Because if it was your 14hh leg on each corner cob, I would have said 14 stone including tack. Can you show me where I said 10 stone including tack? Ten stone plus tack would be my max for my little TBxWB so I have to be careful I don't put back the weight I lost.


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## Bruce17 (12 July 2017)

Can I ask how much people normally add on as tack weight?


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## windand rain (12 July 2017)

there has been several thermal imaging photos of this they usually chose a horse about 15hh cobby sort. they get a novice 8 stone rider and a 16 stone experienced balanced rider then do the thermal imaging it is clear from the photos the 8 stone novice does far more damage to the horse than the 16 stone balanced rider so yes a balanced rider of what ever weight is doing less damage to a horse than an umbalanced one. I also think science supports the view that a smaller horse with good flat bone and short cannon bones is mechanically more suited to carrying weight than the long boned and round boned heavy horses so a little mechanics have to be understood to work out the best weight and size of rider. Probably mkore even than the simple % weight desirable


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## Wagtail (12 July 2017)

Bruce17 said:



			Can I ask how much people normally add on as tack weight?
		
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Around 1.5 - 2 stone for tack and boots/hat etc


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## Leo Walker (12 July 2017)

Wagtail said:



			Which horse was that? Because if it was your 14hh leg on each corner cob, I would have said 14 stone including tack. Can you show me where I said 10 stone including tack? Ten stone plus tack would be my max for my little TBxWB so I have to be careful I don't put back the weight I lost.
		
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You said 10 stone. If I can be bothered later I will trawl through the thousands of posts I have made and find it. But you absolutely, definitely said 10 stone.


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## alainax (12 July 2017)

Immediately after I had my baby my saddler told me I was holding my weight differently, lower down, and it was effecting my saddle fit ( fit to me, not the horse).  I asked if I was too heavy, she said no not too heavy, just that I was now riding in a different position. I worked hard to get my muscle tone back and to get everything back in the right place... then fell pregnant again


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## WelshD (12 July 2017)

A general post and not directed at anyone on this thread:

 just dont know what has happened to common sense! surely common sense would tell someone to not ride or carefully choose their mount if they are heavy? surely we dont need a percentage point between 'ok' and 'not ok' ?

Riding is a sport, I dont know how people think they shouldn't have a basic level of fitness or body weight to participate effectively, to me its the height of selfishness for someone to have the attitude that they should be able to ride just because they want to, its typical of the 'I want' society that we live in. Riding school says they wont take you because you are too heavy? that's ok just buy a cheap horse, stick it on bin end livery and do what you like and just wait for the Facebook likes and 'awwww you go girl!' comments to roll in!

There was a lady at a recent local show so large that she was stuck on her not very chunky horse like a Lego figure, effectively stood upright in the saddle because her belly and the size of the saddle didnt allow her to bend at all - until people like this do start getting turned away from events I think it looks very socially acceptable which has to be a slippery slope

Obesity has become an untouchable 'no go' area for criticism, fair enough if people are mocking obese people trying to better themselves by jogging but when the welfare of an animal is involved I do think its time to speak up

The Showing Register has bravely recently started tackling this thorny subject but has had the usual outrage from the eight stone brigade over it, talk about missing the point.


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## Wagtail (12 July 2017)

Leo Walker said:



			You said 10 stone. If I can be bothered later I will trawl through the thousands of posts I have made and find it. But you absolutely, definitely said 10 stone.
		
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Not for the cob. You have me confused with someone else.


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## Wagtail (12 July 2017)

Here you go. I actually said 15 stone once mature... but that as he was very down hill until he matured no more than 10 stone. He also had quite a dipped back and was only five.  That's a lot different to an uphill, mature and well muscled cob which I would expect to be able to carry a 14 stone person with tack. 

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/foru...day-regarding-weight-carrying&highlight=stone


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## huskydamage (12 July 2017)

cobgoblin said:



			There is a vet in Kent who covers various horsey events...if she considers someone too heavy for their horse she will not allow them to participate.
		
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I have done both jumping and endurance on my pony and seen some seriously overweight people in the same event as me. I'm talking obese people. Heard lots of bitching but no one said anything to their face and endurance vet had no problem (the rider did not even trot the horse up themselves as unable to). But I have to wonder is a really fat person on a large horse much different to me as a large rider on a small pony? We are both going to be over the 15% or whatever it is. Whatever my opinion on it who I am to judge it tbh and esp if the vet doesn't say anything.  That's why I would be genuinely interested to see a study on actual damage/injuries caused to the horse by rider weight and would gladly volunteer myself and my pony for the research as we are still going after many years.


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## ester (12 July 2017)

WelshD said:



			The Showing Register has bravely recently started tackling this thorny subject but has had the usual outrage from the eight stone brigade over it, talk about missing the point.
		
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with regards to them riding section As etc or?


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## Leo Walker (12 July 2017)

Wagtail said:



			Here you go. I actually said 15 stone once mature... but that as he was very down hill until he matured no more than 10 stone. He also had quite a dipped back and was only five.  That's a lot different to an uphill, mature and well muscled cob which I would expect to be able to carry a 14 stone person with tack. 

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/foru...day-regarding-weight-carrying&highlight=stone

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I rest my case.


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## Wagtail (12 July 2017)

Leo Walker said:



			I rest my case.
		
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But you didn't give the whole story did you? You said I'd advised you ten stone for a 14.2 cob when I actually said 15 stone if he was mature and not down hill. But what you were presenting was a down hill 5 year old with a lot of maturing to do. I still wouldn't have put more than 10 stone on him at that stage in his development.


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## Xanthoria (12 July 2017)

ester said:



			but the tests mentioned above aren't going to give you the data you need to generate an accurate algorithm from the above??
		
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No it won't give all the data but I think there's already some out there: the study mentioned above "will investigate the effect of different rider-to-horse weight ratios."

https://www.horsetalk.co.nz/2017/06/20/heavy-science-rider-weight/

Other info online:

http://www.horsesciencenews.com/horseback-riding/how-much-weight-can-a-horse-carry.php
Study on rider to weight ratios

https://equusmagazine.com/management/weight_carry_062608
Effect of weight and incline

I think you'd need to dig deeper for more data, but some aspects could be guessed at reasonably well and you could adjust the weightings for certain outcomes based on common sense. We could say that any horse that's not mature in a musculoskeletal sense should not carry over 10% of it's weight for more than 20 minutes perhaps.

Then you'd need to take into account short vs long term use: is this horse going to repeat the same work with the same rider for a week or a year or 5 years? It might be fine in the short term but awful in the long term. And ideally the site would output suggestions to improve the results: get your saddle fitted professionally, avoid steep hills and heavy going, and hey - lose some weight!


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## Xanthoria (12 July 2017)

windand rain said:



			there has been several thermal imaging photos of this they usually chose a horse about 15hh cobby sort. they get a novice 8 stone rider and a 16 stone experienced balanced rider then do the thermal imaging it is clear from the photos the 8 stone novice does far more damage to the horse than the 16 stone balanced rider so yes a balanced rider of what ever weight is doing less damage to a horse than an umbalanced one. I also think science supports the view that a smaller horse with good flat bone and short cannon bones is mechanically more suited to carrying weight than the long boned and round boned heavy horses so a little mechanics have to be understood to work out the best weight and size of rider. Probably mkore even than the simple % weight desirable
		
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Agree with that last statement! Can you link to the thermal imaging stuff though? I am imagining that a floppy rider causes more heat stress on the back (which is visible with thermal imaging) which could be bad, but 16st is 16st and the affects on the muscles and skeleton of that long term just have to be more.


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## ester (12 July 2017)

Xanthoria said:



			No it won't give all the data but I think there's already some out there: the study mentioned above "will investigate the effect of different rider-to-horse weight ratios."

https://www.horsetalk.co.nz/2017/06/20/heavy-science-rider-weight/

Other info online:

http://www.horsesciencenews.com/horseback-riding/how-much-weight-can-a-horse-carry.php
Study on rider to weight ratios

https://equusmagazine.com/management/weight_carry_062608
Effect of weight and incline

I think you'd need to dig deeper for more data, but some aspects could be guessed at reasonably well and you could adjust the weightings for certain outcomes based on common sense. We could say that any horse that's not mature in a musculoskeletal sense should not carry over 10% of it's weight for more than 20 minutes perhaps.

Then you'd need to take into account short vs long term use: is this horse going to repeat the same work with the same rider for a week or a year or 5 years? It might be fine in the short term but awful in the long term. And ideally the site would output suggestions to improve the results: get your saddle fitted professionally, avoid steep hills and heavy going, and hey - lose some weight! 

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Yup I am aware of what is out there, but mostly as a scientist (and I've read the papers when I had access) how woefully inadequate most of it is. The terms of horse recruitment for the AHT study is (necessarily) very slim and I don't think will clarify the situation for an awful lot of people and as far as I have read is not considering any longer term effects either.


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## Leo Walker (12 July 2017)

Wagtail said:



			But you didn't give the whole story did you? You said I'd advised you ten stone for a 14.2 cob when I actually said 15 stone if he was mature and not down hill. But what you were presenting was a down hill 5 year old with a lot of maturing to do. I still wouldn't have put more than 10 stone on him at that stage in his development.
		
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You said 10 stone at that stage, everyone else said 15 stone at that stage. 

You also said 14 stone earlier and have now changed it to 15 stone. You've also said 14hh and 14.2hh. 

For the record the maturing you said he needed to do never happened and he was always croup high. Its just how he was built. He also had more than 10" of bone, very short cannon bones, was relatively short backed and incredibly wide across the loins. He was like that from rising 5.


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## Wagtail (13 July 2017)

Leo Walker said:



			You said 10 stone at that stage, everyone else said 15 stone at that stage. 

You also said 14 stone earlier and have now changed it to 15 stone. You've also said 14hh and 14.2hh. 

For the record the maturing you said he needed to do never happened and he was always croup high. Its just how he was built. He also had more than 10" of bone, very short cannon bones, was relatively short backed and incredibly wide across the loins. He was like that from rising 5.
		
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Sorry, if cannot remember the exact height of your horse. I changed it to 14.2 when I checked back on that very old thread. 14 stone was a weight I would put on a well built 14hh leg at each corner cob. 15 stone is what I would put on one 14.2. But at the time you posted that particular thread your cob was not a sturdy looking cob (though he did grow into one) he was a 5 year old that was bum high and in that photo looks like he had a dipped back (maybe from too much weight? Who knows? But he had a marked dip in his back). I don't care a flying fig what everyone else said at the time. My view was ten stone for that horse at that time. I did think he could carry more when I saw pictures you posted of him a few years later. But looking at that picture I don't think he should have been carrying you at that time.


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## sbloom (13 July 2017)

I have seen a mature croup high 14.1 cob with a fairly tall 15 stone rider, the pony could only take a 16-16.5" saddle was very unlikely to be able to take 15 stones, whether in soft or hard muscled condition. 

And thermal imaging is not accepted universally as a way to pick up on broad issues.  Pliance testing would be more useful, but ultimately I think we can all use some common sense and look at horses and riders, see whether backs are dented, whether saddles are sinking out of balance, and know whether there is likely to be an issue with rider's weight.


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## poiuytrewq (13 July 2017)

Okaaay, can I just ask everyone to stop and move back a second..... drum roll... 


This is officially my most popular ever started thread!!!! 
 go me! Totally unexpected I thought it very boring  

You may all resume....


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## Wagtail (13 July 2017)

Leo Walker. I just checked the thread again and he was actually 4. You described him as a rising 5 year old in Nov 2014 so he would not have been 5 until the following year. He was just a baby and you were riding him at over 15 stone (plus tack). No wonder I said 10 stone.


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## Wagtail (13 July 2017)

sbloom said:



			I have seen a mature croup high 14.1 cob with a fairly tall 15 stone rider, the pony could only take a 16-16.5" saddle was very unlikely to be able to take 15 stones, whether in soft or hard muscled condition. 

And thermal imaging is not accepted universally as a way to pick up on broad issues.  Pliance testing would be more useful, but ultimately I think we can all use some common sense and look at horses and riders, see whether backs are dented, whether saddles are sinking out of balance, and know whether there is likely to be an issue with rider's weight.
		
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I had not considered the saddle. I have the same problem with my mare. Whilst I am not too heavy for her, at 5'10" I need a 17.5" saddle. The maximum she can take is a 17". Saddler has recommended a close contact which fits us both. She's checking it again today as I'm still not convinced it isn't causing her problems although no soreness has been found by either vet or chiro.


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## sbloom (13 July 2017)

Always consider the saddle, it is much more the limiting factor, as weight carriers tend to be short backed.  Seen much more than larger riders on finer horses and ponies where the issue is more visibly obvious.


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## ester (13 July 2017)

sbloom when you say backs are dented, that isn't a phenomenon I have come across do you mean the saddle leaving an indent on removal or have I the wrong end of the stick?


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## Wagtail (13 July 2017)

ester said:



			sbloom when you say backs are dented, that isn't a phenomenon I have come across do you mean the saddle leaving an indent on removal or have I the wrong end of the stick?
		
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I have seen it too. We have a horse here that had it when he arrived as one of his saddles didn't fit correctly. The other one was fine. Strangely, they had both been fitted by the same saddler at the same time! I also had another gelding here a few years ago that had exactly the same. Again a too narrow saddle. When this was resolved he actually gained two inches either side on his back template. The muscle wasting thankfully recovered with correct saddle fit and back strengthening work.


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## Leo Walker (13 July 2017)

Wagtail said:



			Sorry, if cannot remember the exact height of your horse. I changed it to 14.2 when I checked back on that very old thread. 14 stone was a weight I would put on a well built 14hh leg at each corner cob. 15 stone is what I would put on one 14.2. But at the time you posted that particular thread your cob was not a sturdy looking cob (though he did grow into one) he was a 5 year old that was bum high and in that photo looks like he had a dipped back (maybe from too much weight? Who knows? But he had a marked dip in his back). I don't care a flying fig what everyone else said at the time. My view was ten stone for that horse at that time. I did think he could carry more when I saw pictures you posted of him a few years later. But looking at that picture I don't think he should have been carrying you at that time.
		
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I'd be very surprised if this supposed dip in his back was from too much weight, seeing as the heaviest weight he had had on his back at that time was 9 stone and he'd only been sat on about 20 times. Must be a weird dip that suddenly disappeared never to be seen again though when heavier people did start riding him. He didnt change from that photo.

The only difference was he was hogged and clipped and he put weight on which we then dieted back off him. Seeing as he died when he was rising 6, there werent any photos a few years later either.

You can not give a fig about anything you like  However the whole point of my post was that you said a 10 stone limit, although you are now clearly back tracking. Pretty sure you also said you would tell my tall but skinny 11 stone teenage rider to get off as he was too heavy. 

Every single qualified professional from vets to instructors said different. And some of those people are the ones now saying I am too heavy for my current horse, so clearly they are not of the opinion that horses should be made to carry anyone who wants to ride them.

This is the last time I'm going to read or comment on this thread as its these comments are derailing it. I will never agree with you, even more so as you've made it clear that you have huge issues with food and weight on other threads, which means your view will always be skewed.


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## Wagtail (13 July 2017)

Leo Walker said:



			I'd be very surprised if this supposed dip in his back was from too much weight, seeing as the heaviest weight he had had on his back at that time was 9 stone and he'd only been sat on about 20 times. Must be a weird dip that suddenly disappeared never to be seen again though when heavier people did start riding him. He didnt change from that photo.

The only difference was he was hogged and clipped and he put weight on which we then dieted back off him. Seeing as he died when he was rising 6, there werent any photos a few years later either.

You can not give a fig about anything you like  However the whole point of my post was that you said a 10 stone limit, although you are now clearly back tracking. Pretty sure you also said you would tell my tall but skinny 11 stone teenage rider to get off as he was too heavy. 

Every single qualified professional from vets to instructors said different. And some of those people are the ones now saying I am too heavy for my current horse, so clearly they are not of the opinion that horses should be made to carry anyone who wants to ride them.

This is the last time I'm going to read or comment on this thread as its these comments are derailing it. I will never agree with you, even more so as you've made it clear that you have huge issues with food and weight on other threads, which means your view will always be skewed.
		
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Huge issues with food and weight? Sorry, but as you are the one with the weight issue, not me, I don't understand why you think someone who is within the healthy weight range and who eats a healthy diet but also sweets and chocolates has a problem with food and weight. What problem is that? And as for back tracking, I am unable to remember the height and age of every horse that I have suggested a weight for on this forum 3 years ago. I still agree with my assessment then that a down hill, immature 4 year old should not be made to carry 15 + stone plus tack. Any expert advising otherwise should be ashamed of themselves. Ten stone is the maximum I would have put on him. This is the horse concerned a 14.1/2hh 4 year old who does not look like a horse that could carry 15 stone plus tack. His back looks weak and dipped, and quite long too.


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## Farma (13 July 2017)

sbloom said:



			Always consider the saddle, it is much more the limiting factor, as weight carriers tend to be short backed.  Seen much more than larger riders on finer horses and ponies where the issue is more visibly obvious.
		
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I agree with this! its such a problem with the riders weight wrongly distributed, often even hanging over the back of the saddle putting pressure on the lumbar spine, rather than centrally and balanced as intended. 

The hefty cobs and heavier types as you mention often only take up to a 16.5 to 17inch saddle and some even shorter and they simply don't fit the riders that these horses attract, I wish more people would consider this!


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## ycbm (13 July 2017)

I often wonder if we are right about saddle fit, though. We have a rule that English saddles mustn't bear with after the last rib. But Western saddles more than cover that area with a huge panel. I've no experience of the use of western saddles, do they cause issues in the loin area?


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## sbloom (13 July 2017)

Western saddles are constructed completely differently, look up saddle trees and see the difference.  And yes, dents under the back of the saddle, if you see some of the section Bs stripped in the show ring, as an example, you'll almost certainly see some.

And it's not just about being on the back of the saddle, it's about the average, not just peak, pounds per square inch under a saddle  even if you can keep it in balance and keep the rider just about in it.


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## sbloom (13 July 2017)

ester said:



			sbloom when you say backs are dented, that isn't a phenomenon I have come across do you mean the saddle leaving an indent on removal or have I the wrong end of the stick?
		
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I thought this needed a more specific answer than I put in the previous post.  It can range from a slight softness or flat spot, always towards the outer edge of the rear panels, but frequently further forwards than where the saddle ought to be as so many saddles run forwards, and therefore tip back placing too much weight on the back half.  It can progress through a visible shadow and very flat spot, right up to imprints the shape of the saddle on the horse's back, which are semi permanent, and in an older horse may never come back.

I will be posting some articles on this kind of thing, indicators your saddle no longer fits, keep an eye out because there will be photos showing mild cases.  I do have a photo of a severe case somewhere, it was for an article in Showing World in about 2009, but no idea where it is on my PC :-s


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## Alibear (13 July 2017)

ycbm said:



			I often wonder if we are right about saddle fit, though. We have a rule that English saddles mustn't bear with after the last rib. But Western saddles more than cover that area with a huge panel. I've no experience of the use of western saddles, do they cause issues in the loin area?
		
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The skirts on the western saddle are not weight bearing so they can come further back than an English saddle. 
If you want to know all the ins and outs this is a good place https://www.facebook.com/westernsaddlefit/?hc_ref=PAGES_TIMELINE

A western saddle shouldn't come further back than the whorl on the horses flank.


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## Jamima (14 July 2017)

I am sorry if this offends. 
But isn't it just common sense? If a horse is going well and improving with an over weight rider with no signs of anything wrong then surely they are a good partnership? 
If the horse is clearly showing signs of discomfort no matter how small then maybe time to lose weight/ find a more suitable horse? 

All this 15% stuff doesn't work for me, personally I would judge each individual as an individual.


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## SatansLittleHelper (14 July 2017)

I wonder if the weight ratios would work out differently depending on the work the horse is expected to Do??
Would a horse used as a happy hack be able to carry more weight than it's more competition type counterpart?


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## sbloom (14 July 2017)

Jamima said:



			I am sorry if this offends. 
But isn't it just common sense? If a horse is going well and improving with an over weight rider with no signs of anything wrong then surely they are a good partnership? 
If the horse is clearly showing signs of discomfort no matter how small then maybe time to lose weight/ find a more suitable horse? 

All this 15% stuff doesn't work for me, personally I would judge each individual as an individual.
		
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Very few will clearly show signs of discomfort, muscle damage under the saddle takes weeks or months, and hind leg issues can take years to show up.


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## ester (14 July 2017)

SatansLittleHelper said:



			I wonder if the weight ratios would work out differently depending on the work the horse is expected to Do??
Would a horse used as a happy hack be able to carry more weight than it's more competition type counterpart?[/QUOT

I think a horse hacking is likely to be able to carry more weight than when asked to be athletic. 
However those that are asked to be athletic, properly schooled to best carry a rider etc will be in better nick to carry a rider in the first place.
		
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## KittenInTheTree (14 July 2017)

Bruce17 said:



			Can I ask how much people normally add on as tack weight?
		
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I hop on the scales wearing whatever I'm going to be wearing to ride (including hard hat and BP), and carrying the saddle. I don't worry about the weight of the bridle or saddle cloth, but some people do opt to weigh those as well 

As mentioned up thread, I personally won't ride whilst I weigh more than 12 stone, but to be clear that's 12 stone before adding in any riding gear and saddle weight! I've been pondering why that's my line in the sand. I suppose that it's really because I don't personally feel fit enough to ride properly above that margin - I'm only 5'2", so not tall enough to carry myself gracefully when heavier than that. So I think that it's as much for my own sake as for the horse; I want to ride, ergo I need to be healthy and take care of myself.


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## stormox (14 July 2017)

I weighd my Albion saddle, le mieux numnah and bridle. It came to 2 stone 1 lb.


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## lauraea (14 July 2017)

well i've just sat and read through all of these replies, and now i am intrigued! I have always known I am slightly long legged for my pony (despite being only 5ft 2!)

but now i'm interested to hear your opinions?? His max carrying weight is 60kgs (agreed by osteopath, vet and stables where he is on livery) I weigh about 56kg fully dressed with boots, hat and holding his tack

So.... if you saw me out and about would you consider me too tall and heavy for this pony?? Honest answers welcome!


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## Wagtail (14 July 2017)

lauraea said:



			well i've just sat and read through all of these replies, and now i am intrigued! I have always known I am slightly long legged for my pony (despite being only 5ft 2!)

but now i'm interested to hear your opinions?? His max carrying weight is 60kgs (agreed by osteopath, vet and stables where he is on livery) I weigh about 56kg fully dressed with boots, hat and holding his tack

So.... if you saw me out and about would you consider me too tall and heavy for this pony?? Honest answers welcome! 






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If I saw you out and about I would think lucky you being able to ride ponies. I love ponies, but at 8 inches taller than you, I can't. My main observation from that photograph is that the saddle looks too big for him, though not for you. It may be the way he's standing but it looks as though it may be a bit far over his shoulder and a little long on his back. How big is he? I do think that ponies can carry more for their size than horses can and so I doubt you are too heavy.


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## ycbm (14 July 2017)

I'd think you would look a lot more harmonious, and possibly more effective a rider, and possibly more comfortable, on a bigger pony. But I wouldn't think you were too heavy for him as long as he was carrying you nicely.


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## lauraea (14 July 2017)

He's about 13.3hh and very slight with it. Interesting you mentioned the saddle as I am actually on the hunt for a new one. The saddle in the photo came with him and is an extremely old lightweight wintec saddle which I think was actually used to break him in. Not entirely sure on it's seat size (will have to check tomorrow) but it's definitely a factor to consider.

Admittedly I do ride several different horses at work, right up to 17.2hh and I do feel at my most comfortable on the horses between the 15 - 16hh mark, however nothing compares to the bond and fun I have with my own little boy so I certainly enjoy him a lot too!


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## Meowy Catkin (15 July 2017)

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/news/great-yorkshire-show-asks-heavy-riders-dismount-626324




			The Great Yorkshire Show (GYS) said it is &#8220;frustrated&#8221; by the fact people had to be asked to dismount as they were too heavy for their rides &#8211; a year after it first took a stand on the issue.

Of the 12 people asked to dismount during the 2017 show (11-13 July) four chose to be weighed, all of whom were found to be more than 25% of their ponies&#8217; weight.

Livestock and entries co-ordinator Amanda Stoddart-West said it was &#8220;disappointing to be in the same position&#8221; as last year&#8217;s show, at which eight people deemed too heavy, each more than 20% of the horse&#8217;s weight, were asked to dismount.

&#8220;It&#8217;s a sad state,&#8221; she told H&H. &#8220;All we&#8217;re doing is protecting horse welfare, but I don&#8217;t know how you go about changing the whole attitude.&#8221;

The GYS schedule stated that action would be taken regarding riders of inappropriate weight for their mounts, whether during, before or after classes, and the same message was displayed on signs on the showground.

But Mrs Stoddart-West said most of the offenders were adults on ponies, sometimes riding for &#8220;hours&#8221; in preparation for a child to compete, and that some of those who were asked to dismount were less than polite.

&#8220;It&#8217;s in our regulations, but they seemed to think they were above it,&#8221; she said.

&#8220;We were told we didn&#8217;t understand the sport, that we were getting at the profession, encouraging eating disorders. One argument was that there&#8217;s no scientific proof behind the maximum weight but usually, if the picture looks wrong, it probably is.&#8221;

Mrs Stoddart-West said that although arguments ensued when riders were asked to dismount, the decision also had a number of supporters.

&#8220;Having been screamed and shouted at, to then hear people coming up saying well done and that we were doing the right thing made it worth it.

&#8220;We don&#8217;t want to sound arrogant but if people want to come to our show, they have to abide by our rules.
		
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## KittenInTheTree (15 July 2017)

Faracat said:



http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/news/great-yorkshire-show-asks-heavy-riders-dismount-626324

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If a pony truly needs an adult to ride it for hours in order to prepare it, then it ain't a child's pony!


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## Wagtail (15 July 2017)

Faracat said:



http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/news/great-yorkshire-show-asks-heavy-riders-dismount-626324

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I wish this policy was more widespread.


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## Merrymoles (15 July 2017)

KittenInTheTree said:



			If a pony truly needs an adult to ride it for hours in order to prepare it, then it ain't a child's pony!
		
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And I wonder how many of these children's ponies with "behavioural issues" that require an adult to ride them in are actually suffering with back/hock pain due to having been ridden in by too heavy adults too many times and are protesting in the only way they can. I salute the GYS for sticking to its guns on this one.


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## Velcrobum (15 July 2017)

KittenInTheTree said:



			If a pony truly needs an adult to ride it for hours in order to prepare it, then it ain't a child's pony!
		
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^^^^ This. Perhaps the guilty parties should be reported to the relevant society and a watch list prepared and maintained.


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## Jamima (15 July 2017)

There does have to be a line drawn somewhere but seriously if your horse is comfortable, your tack fits and you look after it properly I don't see a problem. 
I wish people would care as much about proper horse abuse and not just the plus size rider ambling about on their more than capable horse!


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## Wagtail (15 July 2017)

Jamima said:



			There does have to be a line drawn somewhere but seriously if your horse is comfortable, your tack fits and you look after it properly I don't see a problem. 
I wish people would care as much about proper horse abuse and not just the plus size rider ambling about on their more than capable horse!
		
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But all the people who care about the too heavy rider, DO care about 'proper' horse abuse. The problem is, some people need to have a line drawn for them because it either doesn't occur to them that they might be too heavy, or they don't care. Where would your line be, as you say there does need to be a line drawn somewhere?


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## Jamima (15 July 2017)

My own personal line (at 16 stone) is that I wouldnt ride a pony! I wouldn't ride an elderly/weak horse. 
But do I ride my fit and improving well muscled TB x ? Yes I do. 
Do I ride and school my friends big exracehorse? Yes I do. 
I am yet to see anyone out and about  in the UK of someone I thought was underhorsed. 
I would let a heavier person than me ride my horse but as long as they could ride and carry themselves well. 
It's just my opinion, like you have yours.


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## ester (15 July 2017)

I do think to some extent that warm up for small pony classes (and potentially ridden M+M breed classes) is a different scale of issue to oversized 'leisure riders' pressure to win never helps these things. Three counties 6am was a who can lunge in the smallest circle with the tightest side reins competition (as I headed to the loo in my PJs). There were some discussions about adults on small show types overheard too but they seemed to mostly think it was just a bit of a joke so I don't think it will go away easily.


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## ycbm (15 July 2017)

Do you weigh 16 stone without clothes and tack?  If so, you are asking the horses you ride to carry about 18 stone. There isn't a pure thoroughbred in the world I'd be happy to see carry  that amount of weight, sorry. 




			I am yet to see anyone out and about in the UK of someone I thought was underhorsed.
		
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Really?  I am afraid that you may be fooling yourself in order to justify riding lightweight horses at your own weight. Apologies if this offends, but I don't know how else to put it.


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## Jamima (15 July 2017)

ycbm said:



			Do you weigh 16 stone without clothes and tack?  If so, you are asking the horses you ride to carry about 18 stone. There isn't a pure thoroughbred in the world I'd be happy to see carry  that amount of weight, sorry. 



Really?  I am afraid that you may be fooling yourself in order to justify riding lightweight horses at your own weight. Apologies if this offends, but I don't know how else to put it.
		
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Lightweight horses? My horse in a TB x god knows what I would say rhino! He is built like a bloody brick our house and even my vet said he would carry 2 big men hunting all day! 
The exracehorse is a big well muscled lad and goes extremely well for me as he does for other people at different weights. 
I don't need to justify myself to anyone but I am pretty certain with my own knowledge, experience and team of people I have to help me that I am not doing any harm to my horse or others that I ride.


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## Leaf (15 July 2017)

lauraea said:



			well i've just sat and read through all of these replies, and now i am intrigued! I have always known I am slightly long legged for my pony (despite being only 5ft 2!)

but now i'm interested to hear your opinions?? His max carrying weight is 60kgs (agreed by osteopath, vet and stables where he is on livery) I weigh about 56kg fully dressed with boots, hat and holding his tack

So.... if you saw me out and about would you consider me too tall and heavy for this pony?? Honest answers welcome! 






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I know that yard


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## Arzada (15 July 2017)

Jamima said:



			Lightweight horses? My horse in a TB x god knows what I would say rhino! He is built like a bloody brick our house and even my vet said he would carry 2 big men hunting all day!
		
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Simultaneously?


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## tankgirl1 (16 July 2017)

I weigh 12 stone and ride my 14hh cob mare in a lightweight saddle. I am however very aware that I am at the top end of what she can comfortably carry, so we tend to just plod about, although when she is fit and trim she has no problem with a flat out gallop, although we always pull up for a breather before the big un's do, and I don't school or jump her as a rule


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## rachk89 (16 July 2017)

Can you give me your opinions on what limit my horse has? He is 16.1hh, oldenburg x connie, been off work now for 2 months due to kissing spine but is healing. Not the best picture but it's the most recent I have.


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## SO1 (16 July 2017)

I agree. In the article the riders were 25% of the ponies body weight. I am an adult on a chunky new forest, he probably weights around 450/460 kilos 25% would be 17 stone. There is no way I would ride him if I was 17 stone. I am fluctuate between 8 stone and 8.5 stone and I think that is ok for him, but even at 20% that would be 14 stone which I think would still be a bit heavy for him.

If the ponies were being worked in by adults who weight more than 20% of the bodyweight of the pony at the show as the ponies were too sharp to be ridden by the child until the adult had tired them out a bit I expect this is not an occasional occurrence and they are probably being schooled by an adult outside the show as well. One would question if the ponies were suitable for the children anyway or that it was not the correct partnership eg novice pony with novice child. I expect a lot of the small ponies in the show rings are ridden by adults or larger children off the showground anyway due to the difficulty of finding someone at the correct weight with the ability to school them to the level required for the show ring and expect with nearly 1/3 children being overweight even finding a child rider of a suitable weight may become an issue in future. 





Wagtail said:



			I wish this policy was more widespread.
		
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## Wagtail (16 July 2017)

rachk89 said:



			Can you give me your opinions on what limit my horse has? He is 16.1hh, oldenburg x connie, been off work now for 2 months due to kissing spine but is healing. Not the best picture but it's the most recent I have. 






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If he didn't have KS then I would say 14 stone (including tack) as he's quite nicely built. However, with his current issues I would say as light as possible, ideally 10 stone or less, at least until he's fully fittened.


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## ihatework (16 July 2017)

Jamima said:



			My own personal line (at 16 stone) is that I wouldnt ride a pony! I wouldn't ride an elderly/weak horse. 
But do I ride my fit and improving well muscled TB x ? Yes I do. 
Do I ride and school my friends big exracehorse? Yes I do. 
I am yet to see anyone out and about  in the UK of someone I thought was underhorsed. 
I would let a heavier person than me ride my horse but as long as they could ride and carry themselves well. 
It's just my opinion, like you have yours.
		
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Oooo. I am overweight but significantly lighter than you.
I wouldn't ride any just backed horse unless they were a real chunk.
I wouldn't sit on a 15.2hh MW horse with back issues that I own but loan out to a lightweight,
I ride out for an event rider who has a couple of fit string 15.2/16hh types - I decline to excercise those

I have a young homebred sporthorse that will likely end up around 16.1hh and I've already Tod myself I will need to be under 13st if I hope to ride him myself


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## alainax (16 July 2017)

I'm torn both ways with this. I'm an over weight rider with a big fit chunky horse. My biggest fear at shows is someone calling me fat or telling me to get off the horse even though I know we are fine together. 

On the other hand I own a pony that I'm too heavy for so can't ride, so splash out on getting him broken and well schooled by excellent small trainers for the kids. When it comes to a show it will only be the kids riding, and do think it would be unfair for them to be up against something which requires an adult to knacker it before a child can be put on it.

I guess you could say I want the cake and to eat it


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## angrybird1 (16 July 2017)

What weight would you say is too heavy to ride at all?  Just out of interest.


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## Wagtail (16 July 2017)

angrybird1 said:



			What weight would you say is too heavy to ride at all?  Just out of interest.
		
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It depends on the horse. Those Belgian Draughts look as though they could carry around 20 stone with tack, but I may be totally wrong because I know nothing about the breed. Most draught horses are poor weight carriers for their size (Clydesdales and Shires). A really well put together Irish Draught, however, could probably carry 17 stone. For riding on the majority of large fit sport horses cobs  and pleasure horses, then an absolute maximum of 16 stone I would think is about right.


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## angrybird1 (16 July 2017)

Thank you.  Just wondered. I've seen some very large ladies at shows recently and I'm not always sure their horses can carry them.


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