# I post this link with a heavy heart



## Cuffey (26 July 2010)

No doubt there will be arguments for and against the actions of welfare groups

Perhaps all ponies running in natural conditions should be removed?

Friends who saw a clip of these ponies on Border TV said they were in good condition, the vet in attendance was happy with their condition, one in the herd needed pts

This man's reason for living was taken away so he took his own life
http://www.newsandstar.co.uk/cumbri...ound-hanged-1.737226?referrerPath=home/2.1962


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## Over2You (26 July 2010)

Bloody RSPCA!! Another example of them doing more harm than good!! Poor man - doing right by his animals and punished for it. My condolences to his family.


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## madlady (26 July 2010)

Absolutely fecking disgusting!

So many people in this country harp on about horses being kept in a 'natural state' and when someone tries to do that then some do-gooder who probably knows nothing about horses has involved the RSPCA who know even less.  I wonder if the RSPCA officers even bothered to speak to the local equine vets?


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## BBH (26 July 2010)

I think its very sad but the charities involved are all experienced and I think there has to be some reason for ponies to be removed. Normally the authorities advise people about welfare issues before taking action so maybe there is more to this.

If the charities were wanting to prevent mass indiscriminate breeding, for wild or otherwise stock,  I don't think this is necessarily a bad thing. 

As for the suicide that is very sad for his family but his own choice. I personally cannot imagine any circumstances in which I would put my family through that.
( maybe I'm not sympathetic today cos I was delayed for three hours on a train over the weekend because of a jumper ).


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## Cuffey (26 July 2010)

A bit late but the RSPCA are apparently offering the ponies back to the widow
Nothing can bring her husband back

http://www.newsandstar.co.uk/news/w...-to-owner-s-widow-1.737957?referrerPath=sport


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## Sussexbythesea (26 July 2010)

Its very sad that someone took their own life but seeing as no-one here knows the actual facts then its a bit soon to be slagging off the charities involved (which include more than the RSPCA) or is this just another excuse for RSPCA bashing? We all know vets have proclaimed horses to be OK when many of us would absolutely disagree. Quite honestly people have been through a lot worse than that and not taken their own lives - the guy probably had other problems that we don't know about.


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## maletto (26 July 2010)

QR:
so sad. poor man.


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## lindsayH (26 July 2010)

sussexbythesea said:



			Its very sad that someone took their own life but seeing as no-one here knows the actual facts then its a bit soon to be slagging off the charities involved (which include more than the RSPCA) or is this just another excuse for RSPCA bashing? We all know vets have proclaimed horses to be OK when many of us would absolutely disagree. Quite honestly people have been through a lot worse than that and not taken their own lives - the guy probably had other problems that we don't know about.
		
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Agree with this whole-heartedly, but I still think the situation sounds like it warranted extremely sensitive handling. The fact that the poor chap has taken his own life only underlines this. 

Locking him up while they removed the ponies with no prior warning seems heartless to me. It does sound like the situation had got a bit out of control, but it's terribly sad that it had to end up the way it did.


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## Kellys Heroes (26 July 2010)

No comment about the RSPCA there must have been a reason for them to take them away - I know they have made mistakes in the past, but haven't we all?
Such a shame as they've been there for so long, but condolences to the family


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## Over2You (26 July 2010)

LHS said:



			If the charities were wanting to prevent mass indiscriminate breeding, for wild or otherwise stock,  I don't think this is necessarily a bad thing.
		
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At least the man took some responsibility and had the stallions gelded. This is almost always the case with the RSPCA. They would rather seize instead of working with the individuals. I saw the programme about the Australian RSPCA when they were called to a house where an elderly owner had quite a number of dogs and a cat. Most were in poor condition and the smaller dogs were kept in cages. Instead of removing the animals, they improved the living conditions, gave the animals the necessary veterinary treatment, and donated food. The woman got to keep her pets and the RSPCA were satisfied they were being looked after properly. It was a win/win situation for all involved. Surely something similar could have been done in this situation.


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## sykokat (27 July 2010)

Awful, just awful. So sad. Condolences to his family.x


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## SusannaF (28 July 2010)

This seems odd. Surely, legally, they have to give a warning and advice before they can remove horses? The second report said one of them had to be put down.


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## Fenris (31 July 2010)

Comments on the Telegraph site are already filling with condolences for the family.  What a tragedy.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/...217/Did-the-RSPCA-drive-a-man-to-suicide.html


*Did the RSPCA drive a man to suicide?*

Alan Brough commited suicide after the RSPCA took his herd of Shetland ponies, writes Christopher Booker.


Several times in recent years I have reported on the change which has come over one of Britains richest charities, the RSPCA. Its officials too often seem bent on harrying genuine animal lovers, luridly misrepresenting alleged cases of cruelty in order to win the publicity which will keep funds rolling in, to the tune of some £115 million a year.

Last week I was alerted to a particularly chilling case by the SHG (Self Help Group, online at the-shg.org), set up to advise animal owners on RSPCA persecution. It involved Alan Brough, a 68-year-old retired builder from Newbiggin near the Cumbrian fells. He bought Shetland ponies 30 years ago for his daughters, who in time outgrew them. Mr Brough released them onto the nearby moorland of Caldbeck Fell where, thanks to his continued care  which included rising at five oclock each morning to bring them hay  they flourished and became a herd. Eventually the picturesque sight of 90 wild ponies became something of a tourist attraction and a distinctive feature of that northern corner of the Lake District.

Eleven days ago, at the instigation of the RSPCA, Mr Brough was arrested at 8.30am and held in custody at Carlisle police station while officials of the charity put the ponies onto lorries bound for RSPCA-approved sanctuaries. When Mr Brough was released at 3pm and discovered what had happened, he was, according to his family, trance-like. He drove to a nearby church, then to a riverbank, where some time later his 18-year-old grand-daughter found him. He had hanged himself.

The RSPCA issued a statement: We are saddened by what has happened, and our thoughts are with Mr Broughs family. They offered to return the ponies to his widow, but then insisted on keeping them, on the grounds that  although there was no evidence of ill-treatment  the animals might suffer sometime in the future. Mr Brough was cremated on Friday, The RSPCA were wise to stay away from his funeral.


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## WishfulThinker (31 July 2010)

His family should Sue(I am usually not for suing) the RSPCA as their actions caused his death.  Or at least his reason for killing himself, so they made him commit a crime - Suicide.


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## Haha (1 August 2010)

Over2You said:



			At least the man took some responsibility and had the stallions gelded.
		
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He did not have them gelded 




			In an effort to control numbers, a castration programme was started by landowners, The Lake District National Park Authority, two years ago. Mr Brough co-operated with the programme
		
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Which I take as he agreed to let someone else pay


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## Haha (1 August 2010)

The article also states it was not only the RSPCA that removed the ponies 



			Redwings Horse Sanctuary, World Horse Welfare, the British Horse Society and Horse World were involved in Wednesdays operation and they are housing the ponies in undisclosed locations. Mr Broughs family have not been told where they are.

A statement from the RSPCA and other horse charities involved in Wednesdays operation said: We are saddened by what has happened and our thoughts are with Mr Broughs family at this time.

Paragon Veterinary Group has castrated many of the ponies over the last two years.
		
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Also agree with this




			Originally Posted by sussexbythesea  
Its very sad that someone took their own life but seeing as no-one here knows the actual facts then its a bit soon to be slagging off the charities involved (which include more than the RSPCA) or is this just another excuse for RSPCA bashing? We all know vets have proclaimed horses to be OK when many of us would absolutely disagree. Quite honestly people have been through a lot worse than that and not taken their own lives - the guy probably had other problems that we don't know about.
		
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The man also kept lions at his house as he wanted to start a zoo!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## OneInAMillion (1 August 2010)

:O


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## irishdraught (1 August 2010)

WishfulThinker said:



			His family should Sue(I am usually not for suing) the RSPCA as their actions caused his death.  Or at least his reason for killing himself, so they made him commit a crime - Suicide.
		
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Sorry to be pedantic but suicide is not a crime, although assisting it is. 

There has to be more to this than is being reported. Sad as it is, and I am not a huge fan of the RSPCA as an organisation, they are damned if they do and damned if they don't. The RSPCA did not make the man in question do anything, we all make choices, and this appears to have been the choice he took, without going into mental health territory. The family, as human nature does, wants to blame somebody and I am sorry that they have been put in that position.

I agree with sussexbythe sea and LHS on this but don't know how to multi quote.


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## Over2You (1 August 2010)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Over2You  
*At least the man took some responsibility and had the stallions gelded.* 



			
				Haha said:
			
		


			He did not have them gelded
		
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Quote:
In an effort to control numbers, a castration programme was started by landowners, The Lake District National Park Authority, two years ago. Mr Brough co-operated with the programme  



			
				Haha said:
			
		


			Which I take as he agreed to let someone else pay
		
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So, therefore, he *DID* have them gelded as I *STATED* in my post. Why say I was wrong, then quote something which *CONFIRMED* I was right?


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## Tormenta (1 August 2010)

Well I find it incredibly sad and my thoughts go to his family who must have been distraught.  

In this situation some more tact and diplomacy could certainly have been used. 

Then you hear of cases where the people involved are regularly reported and no active measures are taken until it is too late?  I just don't 'get' it.


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## YorksG (1 August 2010)

This is purely annecdotal, but has a similar feel, an elderly woman had a number of horses, as she became less mobile she found ways of caring for the horses that were somewhat unconventional, but the horses were ok. The RSPCA became involved and eventually removed the horses, after months of harassment, the very large house and land then became a 'countrey hotel' now owned by one of the people who were so keen to get all the agencies, including animal charities, involved. I hasve often wondered if the subsequent owner was a benefactor of the RSPCA.


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## bexwarren24 (2 August 2010)

You hear more and more stories daily about the rspca and their under hand tactics. Bullying, coercing witnesses and vets. Ok, this man probably was a little unstable but treating him like a first class criminal pushed him over the edge. Its disgusting behaviour and defanetly not the only time its happened.


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## LeanneRSPCA (2 August 2010)

This is the statement given to the Cumberland News last Thursday (29 July 2010) on behalf of the RSPCA, Redwings Horse Sanctuary, World Horse Welfare, the British Horse Society and HorseWorld Trust:

"The RSPCA has this week (Monday 26 July 2010) met with Mrs Brough and one of her daughters who have expressed a desire to have all of the 102 ponies removed from Caldbeck Common, Uldale Common and Mr Broughs stables returned to them. 

"The RSPCA and leading equine charities Redwings Horse Sanctuary, World Horse Welfare, the British Horse Society and HorseWorld Trust removed the ponies with the assistance of Cumbria Constabulary on veterinary advice because of a genuine and grave concern for their welfare. Two of the animals were in such poor condition that a veterinary surgeon decided that the only appropriate course of action was euthanasia. 

"All of the animals removed are in places of safety and the majority are being housed with the charities involved where they are being provided with the utmost care. Many of the ponies require extensive and indeed expensive veterinary treatment which has been neglected in some cases for many years. 

"We have not been able to secure sufficient reassurance that the needs of 102 animals can be met to the standard required by law if they were returned. 

"The RSPCA is awaiting specific veterinary advice and reports as to the appropriateness or otherwise of returning a small number of animals provided all the charities involved can be satisfied that the animals will be properly cared for and their needs met. That is an ongoing process and it may take some time to consider the animals suitability before any returns can be considered. 

"If this isnt possible the RSPCA may find it necessary to bring the matter before a court to secure ownership of the ponies and thereby secure their wellbeing.

"We appreciate that the local community are divided in their response to last weeks events. We express our deepest condolences to Mr Broughs family and we are sure that the sooner the future wellbeing of these animals can be resolved the better for all concerned."

Leanne Plumtree, RSPCA north regional press officer


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## Tormenta (2 August 2010)

I can understand the view that he was out of his depth and that something needed to be done, however, holding him at a police station to the extent he possibly thought the worst of this situation was unnecessary.


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## spaniel (2 August 2010)

' although there was no evidence of ill-treatment  the animals might suffer sometime in the future.'

Just about sums up the RSPCA in all this.....nobody can possibly look after an animal like they do.....yeah right.

Heavy handed in the extreme.

It doesnt actually matter if the ponies are in decent condition or not,  the way this was does STINKS.


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## Haha (2 August 2010)

Over2You said:



			Quote:
Originally Posted by Over2You  
*At least the man took some responsibility and had the stallions gelded.* 




Quote:
*In an effort to control numbers, a castration programme was started by landowners, The Lake District National Park Authority, two years ago.* Mr Brough co-operated with the programme
		
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 He co-operated which normally means he had no choice than to agree to let them do this.  This to me answers your next question? Yes?





			So, therefore, he *DID* have them gelded as I *STATED* in my post. Why say I was wrong, then quote something which *CONFIRMED* I was right?
		
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## YorksG (3 August 2010)

Haha said:



			He co-operated which normally means he had no choice than to agree to let them do this.  This to me answers your next question? Yes?
		
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I have to say that I find your deffinition of co-operation a little odd, I think you are thinking of coertion (sp), rather than co-operation


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## Tinypony (3 August 2010)

Hey, LeanneRSPCA, please could you let me know when the RSPCA are going to act on a situation that has been going on in Kent, near Brands Hatch, for many years?  The local RSPCA will know where I mean, they have been called out often enough.  I believe the field is about 270 acres, and it's full of horses and ponies in varying conditions, said to be destined for the meat market.  It is also full of ragwort.  Every year, normally in the winter but not always, horses and ponies die in this field.  I was present when a foal was found hanging in the barbed wire one summer, it must have been about 8 years ago, that had to be put to sleep.  In the winter they starve to death hidden in the trees.  A dead foal laid in sight of the local primary school for several days before the council removed it. The RSPCA and other welfare agencies are well aware of this situation, and have been for years.  Every winter they allow themselves to be fobbed off by a couple of round bales being dropped in (between maybe 50 equines), and every summer they turn a blind eye to the horses grazing in a sea of yellow ragwort.
Nobody can argue that these horses and ponies are not being kept to "the standard required by the law", and yet year after year they struggle on in these conditions.  When the gullible public respond to your television campaigns they think that you are the charity that would save animals in these sad situations, and yet in this case you fail year after year.  Is it a case of deal with the easy targets (like the case here) and look away when you are faced with more challenging members of the public?


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## bexwarren24 (3 August 2010)

Tinypony said:



			Hey, LeanneRSPCA, please could you let me know when the RSPCA are going to act on a situation that has been going on in Kent, near Brands Hatch, for many years?  The local RSPCA will know where I mean, they have been called out often enough.  I believe the field is about 270 acres, and it's full of horses and ponies in varying conditions, said to be destined for the meat market.  It is also full of ragwort.  Every year, normally in the winter but not always, horses and ponies die in this field.  I was present when a foal was found hanging in the barbed wire one summer, it must have been about 8 years ago, that had to be put to sleep.  In the winter they starve to death hidden in the trees.  A dead foal laid in sight of the local primary school for several days before the council removed it. The RSPCA and other welfare agencies are well aware of this situation, and have been for years.  Every winter they allow themselves to be fobbed off by a couple of round bales being dropped in (between maybe 50 equines), and every summer they turn a blind eye to the horses grazing in a sea of yellow ragwort.
Nobody can argue that these horses and ponies are not being kept to "the standard required by the law", and yet year after year they struggle on in these conditions.  When the gullible public respond to your television campaigns they think that you are the charity that would save animals in these sad situations, and yet in this case you fail year after year.  Is it a case of deal with the easy targets (like the case here) and look away when you are faced with more challenging members of the public?
		
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Tinypony I think you have sumed it up beautifully in your last sentence


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## Laura1812 (3 August 2010)

I have nothing good to say about the RSPCA. They don't deal with the real issues - I was stuck on a roundabout in Nottingham city centre with a duck and 8 duckilngs - no car as was staying in a hotel and they didnt want to know.

The will NEVER have a penny of my money.

And as for animal welfare, the RSPCA put down healty animals and castrate cats and dogs at 8 weeks old. Criminal.


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## Amymay (3 August 2010)

Tinypony said:



			Hey, LeanneRSPCA, please could you let me know when the RSPCA are going to act on a situation that has been going on in Kent, near Brands Hatch, for many years?  The local RSPCA will know where I mean, they have been called out often enough.  I believe the field is about 270 acres, and it's full of horses and ponies in varying conditions, said to be destined for the meat market.  It is also full of ragwort.  Every year, normally in the winter but not always, horses and ponies die in this field.  I was present when a foal was found hanging in the barbed wire one summer, it must have been about 8 years ago, that had to be put to sleep.  In the winter they starve to death hidden in the trees.  A dead foal laid in sight of the local primary school for several days before the council removed it. The RSPCA and other welfare agencies are well aware of this situation, and have been for years.  Every winter they allow themselves to be fobbed off by a couple of round bales being dropped in (between maybe 50 equines), and every summer they turn a blind eye to the horses grazing in a sea of yellow ragwort.
Nobody can argue that these horses and ponies are not being kept to "the standard required by the law", and yet year after year they struggle on in these conditions.  When the gullible public respond to your television campaigns they think that you are the charity that would save animals in these sad situations, and yet in this case you fail year after year.  Is it a case of deal with the easy targets (like the case here) and look away when you are faced with more challenging members of the public?
		
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LeanneRSPCA can you respond to this please?


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## CeeBee (3 August 2010)

Yes, please respond Leanne!


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## marmalade76 (3 August 2010)

I agree that the RSPCA prefer soft targets or those that will get them lots of media attention. You only have to watch their TV programmes to see it. They are forever poking their noses in where they're not needed, but ignoring other cases of real neglect. On one reacent episode of 24/7, an 'inspector' visited a family who had taken in an abandoned kitten and bullied them into handing it over, saying it might have all sorts of health problems and were they sure that they could afford to keep a cat. This went on for some time, the folks wanted to keep the cat but eventually gave in. "Are you sure you can afford to keep a cat????", I cannot think of a pet much cheaper to keep!! The vet that examined the kitten after it had been taken by the 'inspector' said it was in perfect health and didn't even have a flea on it!

The RSPCA will not be getting a single penny of my money either.


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## BBH (3 August 2010)

I think its like Social Services, they're dammed if they do and dammed if they don't.

I am sure the RSPCA don't do things right all the time but I for one would still want some animal charities and welfare groups to be in existence as surely the fact that people are aware they do exist and can be reported to has saved some animals from abuse or neglect.    

And as for not addressing travellers ( which is who I have assumed the above post is referring to ) is no different to the police or any other government body paralysed by fear of being accused of racism etc.

Having seen some of the individuals and nutters these charities have to deal with it can't be easy and I couldn't do it.


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## Over2You (3 August 2010)

Leanne, I am also curious as to what your reply to TinyPony will be.

Please also explain why the RSPCA have (for many years) been conning Scots out of money. Scottish animals don't receive a penny of the donations.


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## YorksG (3 August 2010)

Interestingly the statement does not give any indication of the measures which were taken prior to this man being arrested and his ponies removed. I can only assume, as I am sure that others also will, that there were no measures taken prior to this 'swoop', while the man was in custody. There has been no suggestion that the man offered any violence to anyone, so surely should have been present during the removal of his animals.


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## Tinypony (3 August 2010)

LHS said:



			And as for not addressing travellers ( which is who I have assumed the above post is referring to ) is no different to the police or any other government body paralysed by fear of being accused of racism etc.
		
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Sorry LHS, I don't agree with you on this one.  Animal cruelty crosses racial boundaries and I don't think any welfare agency need fear accusations of racism when they are dealing with animals that are clearly neglected and starved.

Of course it's not an easy job, and I think people recognise that.  Which is why the RSPCA captures the public imagination and trust so strongly.


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## BBH (3 August 2010)

Yes I see where your coming from but I do think the authorities are sometimes scared of intervening when different cultures are involved.

Even with Appleby i'm sure if you or I started treating horses the way of some we've seen it'd soon be put a stop to but because its cultural no-one stops it.
Extra tolerance prevails often to the detriment of the animals.

Regarding children I'm old enough to remember the death of Anna Climbie and in that case there was very strong feeling that had the child been white intervention would have happened a lot quicker. The same with that poor child recently who was starved to death by Muslim Parents.

Now I know white people abuse / kill children but there is a lot of fear around getting it ' right' with other cultures and this results in delays.

PS in the case of our localish travellers its fear of violence and the lack of the necessary manpower that stops the police going into the local camp. And yes I do think racial, cultural sensitivities create added pressure.


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## Tinypony (3 August 2010)

Well LHS, it's just a field, but it's a very sad field for those of us who drive past regularly.  Many reports have been made, but nothing is ever done.  If the RSPCA just come out with it and say "We're not going to do anything because we're too afraid of the consequences" then fine, at least we know.  This has been going on for at least 10 years.  It's not far off being another Spindles Farm in the depths of winter.  What on earth is going to happen this year, with hay prices as they are in the South East?  Will they even get the odd couple of round bales that are put out from time to time?


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## BBH (3 August 2010)

Yes its awful for all of them, its like only the fittest will survive.

The telegraph the other day had an article on the hay shortages and they had a charity saying they expected an awful lot of horses to be PTS this coming winter. 

I would just document what happens there and try and get a local paper or radio station interested. And keep badgering the authorities. Hopefully the nuisance factor may come into play. 

Good luck it must be very distressing to see that.


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## Indy (3 August 2010)

Leanne RSPCA is the North of England Press Officer.  The last time I looked at a map Kent is at the opposite end of the country. How on earth is she meant to comment sensibly on something happening miles away?


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## BBH (3 August 2010)

Indy said:



			Leanne RSPCA is the North of England Press Officer.  The last time I looked at a map Kent is at the opposite end of the country. How on earth is she meant to comment sensibly on something happening miles away?
		
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Presumably by picking the phone up to ask her counterpart in Kent for an update on the situation and then post back. Or ask her counterpart to respond directly.

Radical eh !


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## Indy (3 August 2010)

Well I would like to think that perhaps she's got enough on with her own area without being hassled by people on here to start dealing with things down south.  Would that not be what the Southern Regional press officer is for?


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## BBH (3 August 2010)

Indy said:



			Well I would like to think that perhaps she's got enough on with her own area without being hassled by people on here to start dealing with things down south.  Would that not be what the Southern Regional press officer is for?
		
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Yes I think it was good of her to post anything really as it can end up a witch hunt on here for the RSPCA. At least by her posting it is an acknowledgment that the RSPCA are aware of the discussion here and will be aware of people's thoughts on the handling of the case in question.


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## Tinypony (3 August 2010)

Yes LH, this is a bit of "nuisance factor" in action.
It is not a witch hunt either.  I'm think it would be very simple for one regional officer to email a link to another don't you?  Besides which, I think it's relevant as it shows a marked contrast in how situations that sound quite similar were dealt with.


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## Serenity087 (3 August 2010)

I recently had a talk in which they boasted about how only 1/3 of the calls made to their hotline are responded to, and how most of their donations actually go to their scientific research department.

And yet, when we asked the RSPCA representative in person "If you multiply the number of chickens in the UK by the minimum amount of space the RSPCA wants for them, you'd need an entire county devoted to chicken farming, so where would you suggest we put them?" they were stunned to silence.

All your monies are going to a department who lack even basic common sense.

It does not surprise me someone has finally died as a result of RSPCA bullying tactics.  I lost a friend to a similar group (lots of money, very little action, a whole TV show about how rubbish they are... worked it out?) after they bullied him to death.  Similar tactics, they took everything he had.

It's frustrating, but the RSPCA machine will cover it up and move on.  Same as they cover up the numerous other 'incidents' where they messed up.

But, another question for Leanne, if the ponies are to be retained in custody due to "fears they may suffer in the future", how come whenever we report animals suffering in the now, we're ignored?  Have had problems with RSPCA in the South East who claim as long as the animals are being fed and watered, you can lock them in boiling buildings when it's almost 35 degrees outside without problem...


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## Fenris (4 August 2010)

Perhaps Leanne could tell us what went wrong in this one?

    This little dog has now been rescued - No thanks to the RSPCA!

    There is a long thread but here is the first posting - so glad they have rescued him now.

    It is well worth reading the entire thread.

http://www.ecademy.com/node.php?id=153167

    Social : My dog needs help The RSPCA is a totally useless organisation

    by Fay OlinskyBlackStarVerified SafeNetworking on 3-Aug-10 1:19pm


    For 28 hours my little dog has been buried underground inside a huge collapsed hay barn.
    After ringing umpteen organisations including RSPCA and getting nothing but recorded messages, I rang 999 for the fire service. They came out last nigh around 6.30 fully dressed in protective clothing and stated they could do nothing...too many stinging nettles!

    They went away and we all continued searching until dark. The Fire Brigade said the RSPCA had been notified and would call first thing in the morning because they had equipment that could locate the dog.
    Nothing...absolutely no call at all. Tried calling them for the third time today.. I have to try and get through to the animal cruelty department because that is the only number available. The answer every time since yesterday at 11 am has been. All of our lines are busy please call back at another time or visit the website.

    My little dog is silent now, I am exhausted but will still dig until I make a breakthrough.
    I know the RSPCA had been informed from the call back from the 999 call I made yesterday late afternoon.

    I hope those people who make large donations to this organisation read this.

    I have tried every source of possible help. The vet the police the rescue centres...all direct me to call RSPCA who just do not answer or even have a service where I can leave a message.

    My dog is going to die if I cannot get to her. The task is enormous like digging for an earthquake victim.

    If anyone knows of any organisation that might help me could you answer this blog.

    Fay


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## Fenris (4 August 2010)

A comment culled from the Telegraph site:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/...217/Did-the-RSPCA-drive-a-man-to-suicide.html

lukefromdubai
Today 01:36 AM
I have lived within a mile of these horses for many years and am genuinely saddened to see them go. They did live wild on the bottom of the fells but to say they were aggressive to walkers and farmers is ridiculous. Many tourists would stop their cars to get out and stroke the ponies, they loved to be petted and were very peaceful as anyone who has encountered them will tell you.

One did bite my friend on the knee once but it certainly wasn't aggressive, more jealousy when the nose of another was being stroked. We did get some lovely photos of them on a couple of occasions and I will upload them and link here.

The ponies have been part of the landscape here for many years and didn't exist without some controversy among the farming community due to their wandering ways that had no boundaries on fields and what they would eat on their way.

I was very sad to hear that Mr Brough "Broughy" had committed suicide. My thoughts go to his family and friends. I'm surprised that the article didn't mention that before the ponies he had lions and tigers, his picture in our local paper was from the 70s where he is lovingly cuddling a lion cub.

The finer details of this case will likely not surface, it should be mentioned that the National Park paid a vet to castrate the ponies to prevent further breeding, and although that commenced some of us hoped that the existing ponies would at least see a year or two more.


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## bexwarren24 (4 August 2010)

Harper_Gal said:



			I recently had a talk in which they boasted about how only 1/3 of the calls made to their hotline are responded to, and how most of their donations actually go to their scientific research department.

And yet, when we asked the RSPCA representative in person "If you multiply the number of chickens in the UK by the minimum amount of space the RSPCA wants for them, you'd need an entire county devoted to chicken farming, so where would you suggest we put them?" they were stunned to silence.

All your monies are going to a department who lack even basic common sense.

It does not surprise me someone has finally died as a result of RSPCA bullying tactics.  I lost a friend to a similar group (lots of money, very little action, a whole TV show about how rubbish they are... worked it out?) after they bullied him to death.  Similar tactics, they took everything he had.

It's frustrating, but the RSPCA machine will cover it up and move on.  Same as they cover up the numerous other 'incidents' where they messed up.

But, another question for Leanne, if the ponies are to be retained in custody due to "fears they may suffer in the future", how come whenever we report animals suffering in the now, we're ignored?  Have had problems with RSPCA in the South East who claim as long as the animals are being fed and watered, you can lock them in boiling buildings when it's almost 35 degrees outside without problem...
		
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Harper girl, hate to tell you this but he isnt the first person to have had taken his life because of the RSPCA, there have been a few. They just dont get published widely because the newspapers (with the exception of the telegraph) dont want to write any thing bad about the RSPCA. Sorry about your friend by the way, very sad indeed.


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## Fenris (4 August 2010)

Can those of you who have posted that you know about suicides (or attempts) that resulted from RSPCA investigations/raids/prosecution please contact the SHG.  We are particularly interested in documenting as many of these cases as possible.

You can contact us by e-mail shg@the-shg.org or by telephone 0844 700 66 90.

Thanks


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## Fenris (5 August 2010)

And now this poor man has been cleared after three years of hell and collapsing with a stroke during the stress of the trial.


http://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/nor...cleared-of-neglect-accusation-55578-26999995/

Anglesey horse breeder cleared of neglect accusation

Aug 5 2010 by Owen R Hughes, Daily Post

A HORSE breeder on Anglesey endured a three-year ordeal after being accused of neglecting his animals in an RSPCA prosecution.

Michael ONeill, of Rainbow Farm, Pentraeth, had his good reputation for breeding horses damaged after he was accused of neglecting two horses back in 2007.

The drawn out legal process was further delayed in March 2009 when he collapsed during his trial in Holyhead Magistrates Court with a stroke.

Doctors wanted the case withdrawn but Mr ONeill, who is in his 50s, was desperate to clear his name.

Last week Mr ONeill was cleared of all the charges at Caernarfon Magistrates Court and told his reputation as a breeder was untarnished.

Zoe McKenna, of Rhoscefnhir, who was accused alongside him, has also had charges against her dropped.

Mr ONeill said: It has been very hard on me, it has been a terrible thing to go through.

His solicitor Gareth Parry said: This has hung over my client for three years. The judge has cleared him of all charges and told him his reputation is completely untarnished. This threatened his entire livelihood as a horse breeder, he risked bankruptcy to fight this.

His legal costs will now be paid from the courts.

Mr ONeill, who is originally from Ireland, is the fifth generation of horse breeders in his family and had an excellent reputation.

In August 2007 he spent around £10,000 to buy two horses from Ireland.

They developed a bacterial infection called strangles, which causes lymph nodes around the throat to swell, forming abscesses. It also causes a loss of appetite.

Treatment of the infection is difficult but Mr ONeill arranged care and veterinary attention.

In September he was required to return to Ireland several times as his daughter was seriously ill.

While away he arranged for Ms McKenna to keep an eye on the horses, which she did.

But when they were seen in a field near Rhostrehwfa in a poorly condition it was reported to the RSPCA, who investigated.

They believed that the collars on the horses were causing the sores and ONeill and McKenna were accused of causing unnecessary suffering to the two horses.

Ms McKenna saw the charges dropped earlier this year.

In a statement through his solicitor, Mr ONeill said: I am relieved that my reputation remains untarnished and grateful for the support of my family, friends, and legal team.

Friend Sue Rimmer said justice had been done.

He said: We knew all along that he had not neglected his horses. Mr ONeill was determined to clear his name and now he has. He would never mistreat any animal.


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## BeckyX (5 August 2010)

This is just awful   poor poor man and his poor family


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## horseygirl28 (5 August 2010)

The RSPCA are a disgrace. They exploit innocent people and cause huge amounts of distress and upset.


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## Equibrit (5 August 2010)

I think this poor guy has become a victim of the gubmints attempts to turn common land in to Disneyland.  http://www.defra.gov.uk/rural/protec...land/index.htm


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## Fenris (5 August 2010)

Equibrit said:



			I think this poor guy has become a victim of the gubmints attempts to turn common land in to Disneyland.  http://www.defra.gov.uk/rural/protec...land/index.htm

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They have moved the page - can you give us a summary please?


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## Equibrit (5 August 2010)

http://www.naturalengland.org.uk/ourwork/farming/commonland/default.aspx


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## MagicMelon (6 August 2010)

LHS said:



			I think its very sad but the charities involved are all experienced and I think there has to be some reason for ponies to be removed. Normally the authorities advise people about welfare issues before taking action so maybe there is more to this.

If the charities were wanting to prevent mass indiscriminate breeding, for wild or otherwise stock,  I don't think this is necessarily a bad thing. QUOTE]

I agree. So many of you on here harp on about how the RSPCA never do anything and then when they DO do something you complain about that too!  We weren't there, Im sure SOME of the 100-and-something ponies were in good condition (or full of worms - I very much doubt he wormed that many!!).  Its very sad he killed himself but at the end of the day nobody should have that many horses in the first place and I think its only right that if the RSPCA had concerns for their welfare then they be removed.
		
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## Equibrit (6 August 2010)

Equibrit said:



http://www.naturalengland.org.uk/ourwork/farming/commonland/default.aspx

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Just a spot of land clearing.


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## Cuffey (8 August 2010)

BHS have issued a statement and published pictures of some of the ponies removed
http://www.bhs.org.uk/Press_Centre/BHS_News/Cumbria_Statement.aspx


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## MotherOfChickens (8 August 2010)

thanks for posting that Cuffey  I feel sorry for the man and his family but he was obviously way out of his depth.


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## nativetyponies (8 August 2010)

Good Grief


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## Fenris (8 August 2010)

Cuffey said:



			BHS have issued a statement and published pictures of some of the ponies removed
http://www.bhs.org.uk/Press_Centre/BHS_News/Cumbria_Statement.aspx

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There is a facebook page supporting Mr. Brough and it seems that the RSPCA and BHS are posting pictures of horses that were already being treated by Mr. Bough and his vets at the time of the seizure - but are failing to tell anyone!  See

http://en-gb.facebook.com/pages/Tut...nds-of-Caldbeck-Common/143354495690305?v=info

http://en-gb.facebook.com/pages/Tuttys-Shetlands-of-Caldbeck-Common/143354495690305?v=wall

http://www.slow-life.co.uk/2010/08/07/the-shetland-ponies-of-caldbeck-common/


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## SirenaXVI (8 August 2010)

I am sorry for the death of Mr Brough and would normally be the first to call the RSPCA useless, but having seen the pictures of those horses, their condition was unacceptable and how anyone could deny that is beyond me 

Mr Brough seems to have been a collector of animals, he probably loved every one of them but he was unable to meet their needs, the photographs only confirm that, much as it pains me to say it.


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## Tormenta (8 August 2010)

I really don't understand this case??  Was he liasing with authorities?? Was there a probability an old man had become out of his depth and the liasing would result in numbers being reduced and a few fit geldings and mares allowed back onto the common?? Was he refusing all help?  Why if animals were being treated and something seemed to be being done was he taken to a police station and all animals confiscated??

I'm confused


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## competitiondiva (8 August 2010)

Fenris said:



			Can those of you who have posted that you know about suicides (or attempts) that resulted from RSPCA investigations/raids/prosecution please contact the SHG.  We are particularly interested in documenting as many of these cases as possible.

You can contact us by e-mail shg@the-shg.org or by telephone 0844 700 66 90.

Thanks
		
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So can I get this straight that if anyone commits/ed suicide after an rspca visit/investigation you want it documented to be rspca's fault??

OK what about police visits/investigations?, Social services? or to be fair shouldn't you be looking at any investigation by any investigatory body???? Or are you just going after rspca??!!!!  mmm me thinks bee in your bonnet!!!


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## competitiondiva (8 August 2010)

Laura1812 said:



			And as for animal welfare, the RSPCA put down healty animals and castrate cats and dogs at 8 weeks old. Criminal.
		
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HAHAHAHAHAHA, sorry just fell off sofa laughing!!! 8 weeks old???!!!???!!! mmmm I think you have your facts there a little wrong!! I doubt that it's even possible at 8 weeks!!  As for putting down healthy animals unfortunately sometimes it may prove to be the only option, places such as dogs trust and cpl have a simple solution to not having to make this decision they just close their doors and say they are full........ rspca do not have this option, despite being full, and in many cases still have to find a solution .......................... It's great to live in an ideal world, but one doesn't exist I am afraid......


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## bexwarren24 (9 August 2010)

Tormenta said:



			I really don't understand this case??  Was he liasing with authorities?? Was there a probability an old man had become out of his depth and the liasing would result in numbers being reduced and a few fit geldings and mares allowed back onto the common?? Was he refusing all help?  Why if animals were being treated and something seemed to be being done was he taken to a police station and all animals confiscated??

I'm confused 

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In answer to this maybe he did become out of his depth but if you read into it it sounds like these animals were being treated by his own vets. If you have that many ponies surely some of them are going to be ill! Maybe he should hav had some of these ponies PTS. Doesnt sound like ant help was offered by the rspca. The rspca dont normally bother to check if these animals are being treated, they seem to wade in feet first. There have been many cases reported where when it comes to trial you discover that said animal was previously under vets supervision.


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## bexwarren24 (9 August 2010)

competitiondiva said:



			HAHAHAHAHAHA, sorry just fell off sofa laughing!!! 8 weeks old???!!!???!!! mmmm I think you have your facts there a little wrong!! I doubt that it's even possible at 8 weeks!!  As for putting down healthy animals unfortunately sometimes it may prove to be the only option, places such as dogs trust and cpl have a simple solution to not having to make this decision they just close their doors and say they are full........ rspca do not have this option, despite being full, and in many cases still have to find a solution .......................... It's great to live in an ideal world, but one doesn't exist I am afraid......
		
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Ok, I think the castrating thing is defanetly a good thing, not one we should complain about but the RSPCA have closed their doors at many sancturies. Have you even read a newspaper recently? Its the smaller charities that are taking in the animals turned away by the rspca.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article7102322.ece

 RSPCA will turn away stray or unwanted pets from animal shelters from next month to cut costs and focus on policing animal cruelty, according to a memo obtained by Channel 4 News. 

The decision could affect as many as 75,000 unwanted animals a year which are currently taken to RSPCA centres across England and Wales. 

It comes after the RSPCA admitted that the number of abandoned pets is soaring. 

The documents show that from May 4, 17 RSPCA animal centres will only take in animals which are RSPCA generated, which means seized by inspectors in cruelty cases or those which are at immediate risk or cruelty. 

Pets belonging to people who are taken into hospital, evicted from their homes or are simply unwanted or found as strays will from that date normally be turned away. Unfortunate visitors holding the animal will be told to contact the police, the local council, or a vet. 

The move has been criticised by animal lovers; one leading charity called it a "dereliction of duty". 

Harvey Locke, president-elect of the British Veterinary Association warned if the RSPCA begins turning away animals which are merely unwanted, it could result in even more pets being abandoned. 

I think the concern is that more unwanted pets may be left to fend for themselves, that people will just leave them on the streets or turf them out of their cars on the motorway. I would like to think that that would not happen but that is a risk, he told Channel 4 News. 

The RSPCA defended the decision to phase out the service, saying it had no alternative but to make the change because of financial pressures. 

Like any organisation at the moment we have to answer some difficult economic challenges. RSPCA has always prioritised which animals it takes in. We are looking to formalise that... to make sure that our finite resources go to the animals that need them most, said Tim Wass, head of inspectorate. 

He said if there was evidence more animals were being simply abandoned they would take action and would refocus its work. 

The report will be screen on Channel Four news tonight. 

The RSPCA is Britains eighth largest charity, with an income of £119 million in 2008. The move comes as the organisation is making savings of £54 million over three years, with donations falling due to the recession. 

In recent years it has expanded its role as the unofficial animal police, bringing criminal cases against owners for cruelty and neglect. 

The charity investigated 140,575 cases in 2008, up from 110,841 three years earlier. It spent £11.1 million on prosecutions in 2008, compared with £7 million in 2007. 

The rise is in part the result of the Animal Welfare Act, which came into effect in 2007 and which was strongly supported by the RSPCA, which introduced new offences of failures in animal welfare, rather than just cruelty.


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## Fenris (9 August 2010)

competitiondiva said:



			HAHAHAHAHAHA, sorry just fell off sofa laughing!!! 8 weeks old???!!!???!!! mmmm I think you have your facts there a little wrong!! I doubt that it's even possible at 8 weeks!!  As for putting down healthy animals unfortunately sometimes it may prove to be the only option, places such as dogs trust and cpl have a simple solution to not having to make this decision they just close their doors and say they are full........ rspca do not have this option, despite being full, and in many cases still have to find a solution .......................... It's great to live in an ideal world, but one doesn't exist I am afraid......
		
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The RSPCA have admitted to spaying and castrating puppies as young as six weeks of age.
http://www.doglistener.co.uk/neutering/rspca.shtml

Concerns have been raised in several papers.
http://www.stonedance.ca/images/Early Spay-Neuter1.pdf
and
http://www.naiaonline.org/pdfs/longtermhealtheffectsofspayneuterindogs.pdf

But some still support it
http://www.ukdoodles.com/spayneuter.htm

In terms of No Kill shelters I suggest you read
http://www.nathanwinograd.com/


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## MotherOfChickens (9 August 2010)

Fenris, what has that to do with these ponies though? and are the RSPCA really responsible for current thoughts and trends in how/when spaying/neutering is carried out? stop deflecting-they arent a perfect organisation, they are hugely inefficient but really what they do is insanely difficult and they are dammed if they do or dont.

the issue here is these ponies but I don't think we are going to get the true story from you. the fact is they were left to breed indiscriminantly, I doubt they had basic care such as worming, feet etc and its doubtful looking at the ponies that any nutrition on the moor was adequate. the ones rescued from his stables were in a disgusting state and I do sympathise with the family but he was obviously not coping.


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## Knick78 (9 August 2010)

I work for Redwings and I can say in response to Fenris' comment regarding the photos, that the photos currently displayed on the Redwings website are the same as those provided by the RSPCA and they are of animals that are currently in the care of the charities, not ones that have previously been treated by a vet as Fenris suggests. I would also say that charities like Redwings, WHW and the British Horse Society, not to mention the RSPCA, would never get involved in such a big and complex rescue operation if they did not genuinely believe there was good reason. We are publicly funded and resources are always stretched so we don't take any such decisions lightly.


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## BBH (9 August 2010)

bexwarren24 said:



			In answer to this maybe he did become out of his depth but if you read into it it sounds like these animals were being treated by his own vets. If you have that many ponies surely some of them are going to be ill! Maybe he should hav had some of these ponies PTS. Doesnt sound like ant help was offered by the rspca. The rspca dont normally bother to check if these animals are being treated, they seem to wade in feet first. There have been many cases reported where when it comes to trial you discover that said animal was previously under vets supervision.
		
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This is rubbish, horses shouldn't suffer to that degree because they are unfortunate to be one of a number. The other thing I would say is that they should have had veterinary treatment way before they ever got into the state on those photo's. People who care about their animals and ' Love them' do not let them starve like that. It looks like if they were being treated by his own vet it was only after they were discovered and he was told to get his act together. Horses don't look like that overnight. 

It is very sad this man took his own life but that was his choice at the end of the day. At least the horses stand a better chance of treatment now they have been rescued.


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## Fenris (9 August 2010)

competitiondiva said:



			So can I get this straight that if anyone commits/ed suicide after an rspca visit/investigation you want it documented to be rspca's fault??

OK what about police visits/investigations?, Social services? or to be fair shouldn't you be looking at any investigation by any investigatory body???? Or are you just going after rspca??!!!!  mmm me thinks bee in your bonnet!!!
		
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When we have as many statistics as we can get we can compare them to those for the other organisations you have mentioned (and some others!)

All we are doing is collectiong the numbers at the moment.  Why are you so upset about that?


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## Fenris (9 August 2010)

peteralfred said:



			Fenris, what has that to do with these ponies though? and are the RSPCA really responsible for current thoughts and trends in how/when spaying/neutering is carried out? stop deflecting-they arent a perfect organisation, they are hugely inefficient but really what they do is insanely difficult and they are dammed if they do or dont.

the issue here is these ponies but I don't think we are going to get the true story from you. the fact is they were left to breed indiscriminantly, I doubt they had basic care such as worming, feet etc and its doubtful looking at the ponies that any nutrition on the moor was adequate. the ones rescued from his stables were in a disgusting state and I do sympathise with the family but he was obviously not coping.
		
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I did not post the original reference to early spay/neuter.  I posted a link to correct a claim that it was impossible and also links to the arguments on both sides.  

People have to make their own minds up about what is going to work for them and their animals, taking into account their own circumstances and their animal's medical history.  The only way they can do that is by reading the claims from both sides and then discussing matters with their own vet.

The problem of people who get older not coping with animals that they have owned for many years and are clearly emotionally attached to needs addressing in the horse world. (Note that this is not a comment on the care of the Brough's ponies, since that is now going to come out in court.)

The Cinnamon Trust help elderly people who have become either too old or ill to cope with the daily care or their animals.  They do not condemn them or drag them through the courts.  http://www.cinnamon.org.uk/

When did you last hear of the RSPCA going to anyone and cleaning up after their animals or sending volunteers round to feed, groom or exercise them?

Instead they prefer the kudos of glamorous court cases and to separate owner and animal without a care for the mental distress felt by both.


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## YorksG (9 August 2010)

I still cannot find any information as to what, if any, discussion had taken place between Mr. Brough and the agencies involved. I still find it odd that he was arrested and held at a police station while the animals were removed, rather than being present to assist with the removal, or at least to allow him to see them removed in the most humane manner.


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## Sparky86 (10 August 2010)

Those ponies are in an awful state. If we'd seen those pictures and been told they hadn't been removed then everyone would be complaining that the rspca never act. Having seen those pictures i really cannot see why people think the rspca did the wrong thing in removing them. It's so sad that the man killed himself but no one should be allowed to let animals suffer like that. Even if they were  being treated by his vet i still think they were right to remove them, they didn't get in that state overnight and their well being clearly was neglected over a long period of time. He was either unable or unwilling to care for them but either way no one has a right to keep animals like this whatever their circumstances. This is a really sad case but i can't see that there was any choice than to remove them given their condition. He probably didn't need to be taken to the police station but as we weren't there we don't know the circumstances. It is a massive job to remove that many horses so maybe they felt it was easier for him not to be there.


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## Kittykins (10 August 2010)

Sparky86 said:



			Those ponies are in an awful state. If we'd seen those pictures and been told they hadn't been removed then everyone would be complaining that the rspca never act. Having seen those pictures i really cannot see why people think the rspca did the wrong thing in removing them.
		
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Having seen the pictures it seems clear that the state of some of the ponies at least did warrent removal and immediate veterinary attention. I don't think the question is really whether or not the RSPCA should have removed them now, it's more a question of how well the case was handled by them overall. If the ponies were in prominent view of the public, as seems to be the case, why were some of the ponies allowed to get into such a terrible state - and why was it only then that the RSPCA saw fit to wade in in this heavy handed way? 

Surely a much more humane approach - for both ponies and owner alike - would have been to have worked with the owner at a much earlier stage to ensure that he kept the ponies in a more suitable manner. He clearly cared very much about the animals, so why not help him to look after them properly, by giving advice / working with him? The only reason they should have had for removal would be if he was no longer able financially to look after them - which I'm sure, with a little gentle, kind persuasion, could have been done with his co-operation. 

It does appear that the RSPCA too often removes animals when working to educate owners who do actually care about the animals but are unaware of their shortcomings as owners might be a better approach for all involved.


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## bexwarren24 (10 August 2010)

Kittykins said:



			Having seen the pictures it seems clear that the state of some of the ponies at least did warrent removal and immediate veterinary attention. I don't think the question is really whether or not the RSPCA should have removed them now, it's more a question of how well the case was handled by them overall. If the ponies were in prominent view of the public, as seems to be the case, why were some of the ponies allowed to get into such a terrible state - and why was it only then that the RSPCA saw fit to wade in in this heavy handed way? 

Surely a much more humane approach - for both ponies and owner alike - would have been to have worked with the owner at a much earlier stage to ensure that he kept the ponies in a more suitable manner. He clearly cared very much about the animals, so why not help him to look after them properly, by giving advice / working with him? The only reason they should have had for removal would be if he was no longer able financially to look after them - which I'm sure, with a little gentle, kind persuasion, could have been done with his co-operation. 

It does appear that the RSPCA too often removes animals when working to educate owners who do actually care about the animals but are unaware of their shortcomings as owners might be a better approach for all involved.
		
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Kittykins I think you have sumed this up well. No-one can argue that the ponies in the photos dont need vetenary care. If you listen to the family though (and I have through facebook) they are certain that they were recieving it. I guess thats one to be argued in court, its all one persons word vs another but if true will easily be proved in a court of law when they get their own vets up to defend them. Its the way the RSPCA go about things. Instead of educating and helping they persecute and terrorise.


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## competitiondiva (10 August 2010)

I love the way everyone seems to think the rspca is all for prosecutions, being bully's, tackling only 'easy' targets!!! If any of you had actually worked with the charity you would know how wrong you are!!!!!

Also everyone loves to assume.... and on this forum in particular people automatically assume the worst of the rspca, really they are damned if they do and damned if they don't!!! If they had offered advice or help when they discovered these ponies in need of immediate vet care everyone on here would have been playing merry hell about it! If the rspca discover an outright offence of un-necessary suffering and the animal needs immediate care then how can the rspca be accused of being wrong to do that, and be accused of heavy handedness???!!!  If minor offenses are discovered then the rspca do offer time and if possible help for the owner to help themselves out of a problem.  It all depends on the situation, and of course anyone who doesn't work with them would only ever hear about the cases where the animals are removed, not those that are able to stay with their owner with assistance, those don't get headlines!!!! So no one hears about them!!!  

Now with regard to this gentleman being held at a police station, this is not common practice.  The police are always in attendance when animals are seized and if this man started to cause trouble or obstruct the removal then the police (not the rspca) would remove him.... (if this was the case)


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## MotherOfChickens (10 August 2010)

competitiondiva said:



			Now with regard to this gentleman being held at a police station, this is not common practice.  The police are always in attendance when animals are seized and if this man started to cause trouble or obstruct the removal then the police (not the rspca) would remove him.... (if this was the case)
		
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quite. as noone has the facts why is the RSPCA being held as the villain? why not wait and see....oh because waiting and seeing is far more difficult than being outraged.

I would be very interested to hear what the man's vets have to say although I have known cases of vets continuing to treat animals under difficult circumstances because it was better that someone was treating them than noone.


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## Kittykins (10 August 2010)

competitiondiva said:



			I love the way everyone seems to think the rspca is all for prosecutions, being bully's, tackling only 'easy' targets!!! ... 

It all depends on the situation, and of course anyone who doesn't work with them would only ever hear about the cases where the animals are removed, not those that are able to stay with their owner with assistance, those don't get headlines!!!! So no one hears about them!!!
		
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So it's not damned if you do, damned if you don't. If they'd handled the case better, there would have been no story in the paper, and we wouldn't be discussing this right now.


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## MotherOfChickens (10 August 2010)

Kittykins said:



			So it's not damned if you do, damned if you don't. If they'd handled the case better, there would have been no story in the paper, and we wouldn't be discussing this right now.
		
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we don't know if they've handled the case badly. he took it badly but at the moment we do not have the facts in order to judge.


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## Fenris (11 August 2010)

peteralfred said:



			I would be very interested to hear what the man's vets have to say although I have known cases of vets continuing to treat animals under difficult circumstances because it was better that someone was treating them than noone.
		
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The only comment from his vets that is in the public domain is this from
http://www.cumberlandnews.co.uk/new...ound-hanged-1.737226?referrerPath=2.1825/home

"Paragon Veterinary Group has castrated many of the ponies over the last two years.

David Black from the group said this week: Of the ponies we saw, considering their management as wild ponies, the vets involved did not have concerns about their body condition."


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## Double_choc_lab (12 August 2010)

As with all cases I think it's best to see the evidence before commenting.  The horses photograpahed are very obviously suffering.  IF the RSPCA had not acted they would have been accused of negligence.  However nothing detracts from the very sad situation that the man concerned took his own life.


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## DragonSlayer (12 August 2010)

competitiondiva said:



			I love the way everyone seems to think the rspca is all for prosecutions, being bully's, tackling only 'easy' targets!!! If any of you had actually worked with the charity you would know how wrong you are!!!!!

Also everyone loves to assume.... and on this forum in particular people automatically assume the worst of the rspca, really they are damned if they do and damned if they don't!!! If they had offered advice or help when they discovered these ponies in need of immediate vet care everyone on here would have been playing merry hell about it! If the rspca discover an outright offence of un-necessary suffering and the animal needs immediate care then how can the rspca be accused of being wrong to do that, and be accused of heavy handedness???!!!  If minor offenses are discovered then the rspca do offer time and if possible help for the owner to help themselves out of a problem.  It all depends on the situation, and of course anyone who doesn't work with them would only ever hear about the cases where the animals are removed, not those that are able to stay with their owner with assistance, those don't get headlines!!!! So no one hears about them!!!  

Now with regard to this gentleman being held at a police station, this is not common practice.  The police are always in attendance when animals are seized and if this man started to cause trouble or obstruct the removal then the police (not the rspca) would remove him.... (if this was the case)
		
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I agree with all you say.

I've had nothing but good dealings with the RSPCA. Every call answered, every concern always followed up. I hate the way some people seem to be sheep here and follow on and all scream 'WE HATE THE RSPCA!'....I think you really need to check out the bigger picture...

The pictures shown of why the horses were removed is clear. Can some people not see that? As for the case where it had been strangles that had caused the abcesses on the horses....the horses were in poor condition, THAT was admitted, the charity was only doing it's best by taking action as it did. The man was cleared in the end, and was sad he suffered ill health through it all, but justice prevailed.....

Why are some of you so quick to slate when you seem to over-look the good work they DO get done? There are only so many hours in a day. There are only so many people the charity can afford to pay. It's not just paying them...what about the vans, and insurance, and the rescue centres? You think those are cheap to run?

Look at the Police, they are also over-strecthed, I had chickens stolen 3 times in as many years, not once did they come to the scene of the crime 'because we don't have the man-power to investigate chickens'....might seem trivial to some, it was a big deal to me...

We are over-populated in this country and it's bound to get worse over time, due to advances in medicine etc. We can safely say then, that the people who get animals will increase too, thus meaning more animals will find themselves possibly in bad situations.

The RSPCA is over-stretched and is doing it's very best. Get out of your heads this 'RSPCA are bullies and hound innocents' way of thinking.

The COURTS will decide that. It's not for you to lay judgement. Sure, an opinion is fine, just make sure it's warranted and not just a load of bull***** just coz you read the title of the thread and couldn't be bothered to investigate more, afterall, if it's posted as a thread, it's GOT to be true, right??


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## DragonSlayer (12 August 2010)

Fenris said:



			The only comment from his vets that is in the public domain is this from
http://www.cumberlandnews.co.uk/new...ound-hanged-1.737226?referrerPath=2.1825/home

"Paragon Veterinary Group has castrated many of the ponies over the last two years.

David Black from the group said this week: Of the ponies we saw, considering their management as wild ponies, the vets involved did not have concerns about their body condition."
		
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The key phrase here is '....of the ponies we SAW'....


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## bexwarren24 (12 August 2010)

DragonSlayer said:



			I agree with all you say.

I've had nothing but good dealings with the RSPCA. Every call answered, every concern always followed up. I hate the way some people seem to be sheep here and follow on and all scream 'WE HATE THE RSPCA!'....I think you really need to check out the bigger picture...

The pictures shown of why the horses were removed is clear. Can some people not see that? As for the case where it had been strangles that had caused the abcesses on the horses....the horses were in poor condition, THAT was admitted, the charity was only doing it's best by taking action as it did. The man was cleared in the end, and was sad he suffered ill health through it all, but justice prevailed.....

Why are some of you so quick to slate when you seem to over-look the good work they DO get done? There are only so many hours in a day. There are only so many people the charity can afford to pay. It's not just paying them...what about the vans, and insurance, and the rescue centres? You think those are cheap to run?

Look at the Police, they are also over-strecthed, I had chickens stolen 3 times in as many years, not once did they come to the scene of the crime 'because we don't have the man-power to investigate chickens'....might seem trivial to some, it was a big deal to me...

We are over-populated in this country and it's bound to get worse over time, due to advances in medicine etc. We can safely say then, that the people who get animals will increase too, thus meaning more animals will find themselves possibly in bad situations.

The RSPCA is over-stretched and is doing it's very best. Get out of your heads this 'RSPCA are bullies and hound innocents' way of thinking.

The COURTS will decide that. It's not for you to lay judgement. Sure, an opinion is fine, just make sure it's warranted and not just a load of bull***** just coz you read the title of the thread and couldn't be bothered to investigate more, afterall, if it's posted as a thread, it's GOT to be true, right??
		
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If the RSPCA are over streched then why spend money taking such people to court? It cost tens of thousands to get the strangels trial through the courts. Money which could be spent better elsewhere. I agree some ppl need to be prosecuted but anyone could see that this case was nowhere near strong enough to even been considered to have gone through the courts. I am sure the RSPCA do some good but I also think they are extremly wasteful. Millions of pounds on expensive offices.

Its ok for you to say "its ok he was proved innocent" but how would you like it if one of your horses got ill and you were known in your local area as an animal abuser? Were dragged through a 3 year ordeal? Oh and had your horse taken away from you for this time too?

As for being sheep, I seem to be going against the grain so would defanetly not class myslef as a sheep.


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## DragonSlayer (12 August 2010)

bexwarren24 said:



			If the RSPCA are over streched then why spend money taking such people to court? It cost tens of thousands to get the strangels trial through the courts. Money which could be spent better elsewhere. I agree some ppl need to be prosecuted but anyone could see that this case was nowhere near strong enough to even been considered to have gone through the courts. I am sure the RSPCA do some good but I also think they are extremly wasteful. Millions of pounds on expensive offices.

Its ok for you to say "its ok he was proved innocent" but how would you like it if one of your horses got ill and you were known in your local area as an animal abuser? Were dragged through a 3 year ordeal? Oh and had your horse taken away from you for this time too?

As for being sheep, I seem to be going against the grain so would defanetly not class myslef as a sheep.
		
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Why take people to court? Isn't it because they COULD be breaking the law? simple answer, that one...why put laws in place if they could be percieved as never being enforced? 

Yes, it IS ok for me to be saying that because it's never happened to me, of that I agree, but life is NEVER fair I'm afraid. These things happen. The officers were acting to the best of their intentions, whether you agree or not doesn't come into it. The judge was the presiding figure in this case and by all accounts agreed the man was innocent.

A friend I know was jailed for quite a few weeks over something her ex had set her up for. Case was thrown out of court and he was heavily punished for wasting the courts time, and the time of the police. It all wasn't fair and she suffered for it...but it happens. She walked away with an untarnished reputation as they say, but yeah....times were difficult.

Innocent people go through hardships. You don't like it when it happens to you....but it's life. 

As for being a sheep....well, you draw your own conclusions as to whether you fall into that category, I named no names....


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## Xlthlx (12 August 2010)

We have wild deer which are often left to die from 'natural causes'.  Would it be so bad if in the wilder places in Britain we had truly wild ponies?  You'd have the problem of over population but this could be resolved by pony stalkers and also re introducing wolves.

Or hunting of course although some people might have moral qualms about using horses to hunt other ponies.


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## MotherOfChickens (12 August 2010)

Xlthlx said:



			We have wild deer which are often left to die from 'natural causes'.  Would it be so bad if in the wilder places in Britain we had truly wild ponies?  You'd have the problem of over population but this could be resolved by pony stalkers and also re introducing wolves.

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I don't see where we have the room and considering the outcry that happens about wild horse culls in australia and the US I can't see it happening. and introducing wolves, are you for real? estate managers up here are still poisoning raptors!  they've had some success in population control on Chincoteague using immunocontraceptives.

the closest think we have to feral ponies in the UK are the semi-feral exmoor herds on exmoor, cumbria and scotland but they still have to be managed.


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## Xlthlx (12 August 2010)

Hi I was partly satirising the belief that we should not intervene and manage wildlife.  I am sure it would be illegal for someone to have truly wild horses on their land.

A lot of it is a cultural thing.  People would be outraged if horses were left to die of 'natural causes'.  Of course dieing of lung worm/ starvation isn't really a natural cause at all.  In the true wild horses with those conditions would be hunted down killed and eaten.

However there are people that think we should re introduce wolves in some of our truly wild places in scotland although I understand they will be fenced off.

Why not chuck a few wild ponies in to keep them happy?


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## Xlthlx (12 August 2010)

Article here on rewilding:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/environment/article6850789.ece

It would of course not work properly or be horribly cruel if you did not either introduce large carnivores to keep the population under control or have some form of stalking/hunting to take out the large herbivores because otherwise they would over breed and decimate the flora.


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## MotherOfChickens (12 August 2010)

Xlthlx said:



			Hi I was partly satirising the belief that we should not intervene and manage wildlife.  I am sure it would be illegal for someone to have truly wild horses on their land.

A lot of it is a cultural thing.  People would be outraged if horses were left to die of 'natural causes'.  Of course dieing of lung worm/ starvation isn't really a natural cause at all.  In the true wild horses with those conditions would be hunted down killed and eaten.

However there are people that think we should re introduce wolves in some of our truly wild places in scotland although I understand they will be fenced off.

Why not chuck a few wild ponies in to keep them happy?
		
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aahh, I see. I agree with the sentiment-alot of waffle goes on about how lovely feral horses have it and it just aint the case. I personally would not like to see horse or wolves shot at from a helicopter or killed with poison. I might get a bit upset about exmoor ponies being food for wolves as well 

as for Scotland, I live up here and they've been on about introducing wolves for years and its still not happened and I can't see it, unless they open it up as a sort of game reserve for shooting. rural income depends on shooting up there. on an encouraging note however (and completely OT) they have just discovered beavers living up here in the wild and that they've been here quietly building dams while everyone thought them extinct  

wrt to the ponies in this case, I don't know how big a space they were kept in, what forage was available to them, what breeds they were (don't all look to be Shetlands and although undoubtedly tough, they are a domestic breed) and what the breeding stock were to begin with. were all the ponies descended from the orignal ones?


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## Xlthlx (12 August 2010)

I'd love to have beavers in our wet wooded valley


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## Kittykins (12 August 2010)

DragonSlayer said:



			I've had nothing but good dealings with the RSPCA. Every call answered, every concern always followed up. I hate the way some people seem to be sheep here and follow on and all scream 'WE HATE THE RSPCA!'....I think you really need to check out the bigger picture...

Why are some of you so quick to slate when you seem to over-look the good work they DO get done?
		
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Why are you so quick to insist that the RSPCA never does anything but good? 

I don't think anyone here would dispute that, when it sticks to it's remit, the RSPCA does good work (bar the puppy / kitten spaying thing, which isn't great). But so do lots of other charities, and as a result they have a good reputation. There's no smoke without fire. The reason many people don't like the RSPCA is because all too often they stray well beyond their remit, and when they do that, often get it wrong. I for one was disgusted at their stance on the hunting ban. For a charity that's supposedly all about animal welfare, they didn't give much thought to the welfare or correct management of fox populations. 

That makes it all the easier, when something like this case arises, for people to assume the worst of the RSPCA.


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## gemin1eye (12 August 2010)

Why are people ignoring the fact that other horse charities were involved such as WHW and Redwings, who I believed to have very good reputations on this forum? Clearly those ponies needed help and clearly that man could not cope with the amount of ponies he had. If someone had simply posted the photos of the ponies, you would all be shouting about how they needed taking away from the cruel owner who was letting them starve. Ultimately nobody is responsible for this mans death except himself.


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## YorksG (12 August 2010)

I have been following this thread with some interest, particularly the comments about the man who committed suicide, a good job the dead can't sue for deformation of charachter in this case! If the man appeared to be unstable, mentaly unwell etc he SHOULD have been assessed under the Mental Health Act 1983, at the police station. If he was arrested as they felt that he was unstable, then he should have been examined by the fornesic medical examiner on duty on the day. As to those who say it was his responsibility as to whether he took his own life or not, do they not believe that their actions have consequences to and effects on those around them?


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## gemin1eye (13 August 2010)

yorksG said:



			As to those who say it was his responsibility as to whether he took his own life or not, do they not believe that their actions have consequences to and effects on those around them?
		
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I take responsibility for my actions but I am not responsible for how others respond to them. Is this man not responsible for the state his horses were in, and did his actions (or lack of them) not have an effect on the starving animals supposedly under his care?


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## YorksG (13 August 2010)

'take responsibility for my actions but I am not responsible for how others respond to them.'
I think that you are responsible for how others respond if you are in a position of power and can remove someones liberty, potentially removing their goods and chattles and inprisoning them, for a period of time. To think otherwise would be peverse to my mind. (I speak from the position of being in a profession where I am in a postion to deprive people of their liberty)


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## Maisie2 (14 August 2010)

Well said Gemin1eye.  Not only were other charities involved, but this chap had a family apparently, so where have they been for the last however many years, they must have known some of his problems?    The photos were ghastly and I'm sorry but I find it unforgivable to leave any animals in that state.  The RSPCA may not be perfect, but then who is:-(


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## JanetGeorge (14 August 2010)

bexwarren24 said:



			If the RSPCA are over streched then why spend money taking such people to court? It cost tens of thousands to get the strangels trial through the courts. Money which could be spent better elsewhere.
		
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The RSPCA prosecutes for one of several reasons:

First - as in the Spindles Farm case - the neglect and cruelty is SO bad that the charity seeks to take the animals away from the owner permanently (and unless the owner agrees to sign the animals over, a court case is necessary for that outcome!)  There is also the advantage of - hopefully - getting the courts to impose a lifetime ban on the guilty party - preventing them treating other animals in similar fashion.

Second, where the cruelty/neglect is not SO bad as in the first, but where the owner of the animals won't accept help and/or won't give up the animals - so neglect/mis-treatment are likely to continue.

And third - if the prosecution will benefit one of their campaigns!!  This includes many past prosecutions most of which have failed/or been over-turned on appeal:  anyone remember the 'horse on the gate' case?  THAT prosecutionwas undertaken purely because it provided fuel for the anti-hunt campaign.

In the first, I don't think ANYONE would argue that the Amersham horses should not have been seized - nor that James Gray should not have been prosecuted!  But what if James Gray had committed suicide the day after the seizure??  Would some people have said the RSPCA had been heavy-handed??  With the information we have NOW, no!  But IF James Gray had committed suicide at the start, no doubt the RSPCA would NOT have released much of the information we now have out of respect for the family.

In THIS case, I suspect the problem was more of a scenario 2 - that the owner of the ponies was perhaps reluctant to accept advice/help - but ponies were suffering.  In that case I think the charities concerned did the best they could in the circumstances.

I recall a case some years ago where an elderly lady who was in a nursing home was let down by the person who was being paid to care for her horses.  The horses were seized by the RSPCA - at least one had to be put down.  While the owner was very confused and not capable of much,she KNEW she loathed the RSPCA and wouldn't sign the horses over so the RSPCA intended to prosecute.  The BHS - who had taken 3 of the horses to its rescue centre (all stallions) - intervened and the then Head of Welfare spent many hours with the owner (in her lucid moments) and persuaded her to sign the horses over to the BHS; the RSPCA did NOT prosecute as it was notnecessary then to secure the horses' future and would have been pointless as the owner was never going to acquire any MORE horses.

I am NOT a fan of the RSPCA - and rarely feel inclined to defend it - but I DO respect many of the people who work for it (most are not loonies like some of the RSPCA Council who make the rules!)  In this very sad case, the RSPCA worked with other responsible equine charities - including the BHS - yet no-one is criticising the other charities for the sad outcome. 

There is NO doubt that some of the horses WERE suffering considerably - and they didn't get into that condition overnight!   The owner was obviously over-stretched and not coping; but the outcome was a tragedy that almost certainly could not have been foreseen - and thus could not have been prevented.


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