# PTS



## mary pearce (6 May 2021)

Has anyone ever had to sign a disclaimer half way through having their horse PTS? I am deeply scarred by the severity of such unexpected,  conduct.


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## shortstuff99 (6 May 2021)

No never, did something go wrong? Hope you are okay.


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## PapaverFollis (6 May 2021)

I've never had to sign anything, before or after... and definitely not part way through. 😕  that doesn't sound at all correct.


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## mary pearce (6 May 2021)

I have been trying to find some peace in what happened, but cant. The decision itself was traumatic enough, but after sedating them, the vet pulled out a disclaimer and said, sign here or I cannot continue. On top of the decision itself I am really disturbed by it.


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## mary pearce (6 May 2021)

None of the paperwork adds up, and when I had stopped crying and examined it, I saw that my little pony had an asterisk mark beside his name, but not my mare, so something is not right and its pain on top of pain not knowing why.


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## gallopingby (6 May 2021)

Maybe something new, l was asked to sign one recently, not for a horse but had never been asked to sign anything previously for horses or other animals.


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## mary pearce (6 May 2021)

It was not nice, surely it should have mentioned beforehand, not half way through.


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## Redders (6 May 2021)

As a vet (small animal) we get owners to sign consent forms for any treatment, including euthanasia. It used to be that implied verbal consent was fine, but now a lot of vets ask for a signed form in case of disputes of ownership and that sort of thing. It was likely a consent form rather than a disclaimer that you were asked to sign. I am very sorry for your loss, and understand how very hard the decision was for you. Regarding the asterix, it was probably some mental note for the vet about nothing particularly important for you but paper work based for the vet to compete when they got back, but I think it might make you feel better to maybe call your vets office and ask them what it meant, so you can put your mind at ease. They won’t mind doing this at all


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## mary pearce (6 May 2021)

Hi, thank you. I have already asked the vets this and why the drugs used were only sedatives. They have refused to correspond any further with me.


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## Redders (7 May 2021)

Have they said they refuse to correspond with you further, and why? If you are concerned, then my suggestion would be to write to the practice manager with your queries, that is usually the best way to get queries resolved because the vets are generally not at a desk or near a phone, and the manager can look into things for you x


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## paddy555 (7 May 2021)

mary pearce said:



			Hi, thank you. I have already asked the vets this and why the drugs used were only sedatives. They have refused to correspond any further with me.
		
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I have had quite a few PTS and the vet has always sedated them first. Sometimes it has been a case of the vet arriving to a horse in distress and just getting sedation straight into them before we even discuss anything. Was this a planned PTS on a very calm horse or an emergency on a horse in pain? I have never been asked to sign anything for a horse however I am well known at my vets and they have a lot of my history on record so perhaps they don't need to worry about ownership. 
The last one that was PTS was in the worst distress ever.. Vet got the sedative in with no questions or discussion. Her instruction over the phone when I called them was PTS asap (for the horse's sake) She asked after the horse had been sedated if I was sure I wanted to PTS. I suppose if she didn't know me she could have asked me to sign. The space between sedation and PTS gave me the chance to change my mind. It was also the breathing space to allow me to say goodbye to my now calm horse. Some owners may have  considered alternatives when the horse was sedated. 

The asterix may mean something about the handling. One of mine has, quite rightly, got a black mark against his name as he is a pig to sedate. I am happy with that. It is for everyone's safety. 

None of that may apply to you it is only a suggestion. 

I am sorry you lost your horse and the distress it has caused you.


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## mary pearce (7 May 2021)

Yes they did refuse, they have said there is nothing more to say or conclude. Yet there are many unanswered questions. Valid questions regarding conduct, paper work and drugs, drugs that my old vet said are not used to PTS, merely sedatives.
Why the little pony was marked up. Why was his passport stamped at the back without our knowledge in January when he had his injections. (regarding exclusion from human consumption) No vet has ever signed this prior. 
Why was there only mention of two drugs in the conformation email received afterwards at my request, but now after asking questions yesterday a third drug, being the correct one, has now been added on new paperwork. 
It is soul destroying to say the least x


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## mary pearce (7 May 2021)

paddy555 said:



			I have had quite a few PTS and the vet has always sedated them first. Sometimes it has been a case of the vet arriving to a horse in distress and just getting sedation straight into them before we even discuss anything. Was this a planned PTS on a very calm horse or an emergency on a horse in pain? I have never been asked to sign anything for a horse however I am well known at my vets and they have a lot of my history on record so perhaps they don't need to worry about ownership.
The last one that was PTS was in the worst distress ever.. Vet got the sedative in with no questions or discussion. Her instruction over the phone when I called them was PTS asap (for the horse's sake) She asked after the horse had been sedated if I was sure I wanted to PTS. I suppose if she didn't know me she could have asked me to sign. The space between sedation and PTS gave me the chance to change my mind. It was also the breathing space to allow me to say goodbye to my now calm horse. Some owners may have  considered alternatives when the horse was sedated.

The asterix may mean something about the handling. One of mine has, quite rightly, got a black mark against his name as he is a pig to sedate. I am happy with that. It is for everyone's safety.

None of that may apply to you it is only a suggestion.

I am sorry you lost your horse and the distress it has caused you.
		
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Th


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## mary pearce (7 May 2021)

I understand you and thanks for the time to comment, but pulling paperwork out half way through when we were already upset, does not sit correctly with me.
We had owned them for near on 14 years and the small marked up one was very quiet. The point is why are the vets unwilling to answer direct questions. But fast to send a bill the same day. Very upsetting indeed.


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## paddy555 (7 May 2021)

all my horse passports have been requested by the vets and signed accordingly. I think that is normal practice?

I know how upset you are ( have been there) but can you perhaps list the drugs used (which should be detailed on your bill) It may be easier then for any vets on here to explain their purpose. 
A lot of people on here have had experience of PTS and can probably help you with a little more info. Was your pony in distress, was this an emergency callout or a long planned  PTS?


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## honetpot (7 May 2021)

You need a bill that is itemized, mine lists all drugs by name and the amounts given, and the cost.
There is sometimes an inclusive charge for the procedure, otherwise syringes and items used, like tubing are listed.
 When it's a planned PTS, mine usually bring the drugs in a prefilled syringe, but when its and emergency they be just using what they have in the car, so I suppose there is always a chance they may not have enough of one particular drug.
  I have never been asked to sign a consent for PTS, without paperwork, its implied consent, there will be a record of the appointment, the fact you are there and are watching would show consent.
  I am really sorry it's been a tough time for you, it's never easy.


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## southerncomfort (7 May 2021)

When I had our little Welsh B PTS a few years ago now, the attending vet had a sheet with a few standard questions regarding what I wanted done with her afterwards etc, and was then asked to sign to give consent for the vet to proceed. She wasn't sedated but that was because she had a catastrophic leg injury and could barely stand.

I had another PTS a couple of years ago and she was sedated prior to being euthanised and I was glad of it because she knew nothing about it and went very peacefully.

I'm with a different practice now and they don't require written consent, however it seem quite a sensible thing from the vets point of view though and not something that I'm concerned about.

You are understandably upset and traumatised as its a horrible thing to go through. In the kindest possible way, the guilt at having to make the decision and the overwhelming grief may be slightly clouding your view of the vets conduct on the day.  It does sound like the practice have tried to answer your questions and reassure you.

Maybe give it a few days to allow emotions to settle and if you still feel the same way write a letter to the practice manager to outline your concerns.

Above all be kind to yourself.  When the first pony I mentioned above was PTS I suffered depression and horrible flashbacks for a long time because it was so traumatic.  You need to try and find a way to be at peace with it all and remember that above all you made a kind and selfless decision that prevented the pony from suffering.


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## MiJodsR2BlinkinTite (7 May 2021)

Sooohh......... my understanding is, having had three in my life now PTS by injection, is that what happens is that firstly the vet administers a general sedative, just to calm the horse down and relax it - just the same as if you were doing minor/standing stuff like teeth.

Then the vet inserts a cannula, if I remember rightly this goes into jugular vein in the neck, and the next stage then commences, i.e. deeper sedation - or Part 1 of the 2 doses that are necessary - but not enough to be a fatal dose, basically. This is the stage at which I suspect the vet asked OP to sign a disclaimer....... ?? Because this is basically "the point of no return"; when the vet injects the final syringe then that is the dose that is the fatal dose and should the owner change their mind at that point then there is nothing that can be done to reverse it.

Feel very sorry for OP; but not knowing the circumstances it is difficult to comment. It may, and I say "may", have been the case that there was a need to allow space after the first syringe, before the second (fatal dose) was administered, to perhaps allow the owner to take stock and think about things, but if this is what happened it is not the normal procedure. I cannot remember TBH whether I signed a form or not, prior to the PTS. But then again, perhaps I did......

Basically ANY PTS procedure by injection is going to involve some form of sedative because what happens is that the dosage is increased to what essentially is a fatal level (sorry, this isn't an easy subject at the best of tmies); OP if you do have the paperwork from the vets you may see something called "Somulose" which is basically the drug that is used to PTS. So I'm not sure what you mean when you say the drugs were "only sedatives". ANY PTS procedure is basically an overdosage of sedative.

So sorry this has happened to you; if you are not happy with what has occurred I would ask to speak to the Senior Partner at your vet practice as I feel all this should have been explained to you beforehand, and it obviously hasn't been. If you are still not happy I would refer the matter to the Royal Veterinary College. However at the end of the day, PTS is never going to be an easy decision; and for whatever reason, it had to be done and you had to deal with it. Would you permit me to say to you that you were the best owner possible; you made a hugely tough choice and carried it through, and at the end of the day - whilst the actual procedural aspects of what happened give rise to questions - for your horse, on the day, he/she wouldn't have known anything but gently going off into a deep sleep.


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## Elf On A Shelf (7 May 2021)

I have never been asked to sign a consent form nor disclaimer for pts but then none of my horses gave me a choice in what needed done. I think I am lucky in that respect, there were no other options or outcomes and so did not have any time to think about the issue. My job does harden me to it every so slightly though it is never easy.

The one that bugged me was getting an email bill from the vet the day after Mr F was pts demanding it be paid in full within 7 days as they have a business to run, overheads to pay and were struggling from covid. Yes I get that, I totally do and I ALWAYS pay my bills as soon as I am able to but to be quite so harsh about it? No need. I did also ask for them to keep some of his tail for me which they never did.


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## mary pearce (8 May 2021)

Thank you for your comments. So, as one of you has said there are two injections, can anyone explain to me why the need for three drugs then, two sedatives and the main drug that has now been spotted an inch above a barely visible faded link, on an otherwise well printed page above the two sedatives sat beneath it. Yet only two syringes were used? 
I understand each practice may have its own way of dealing with paperwork, but, a person should be told in advance, not half way through in front of an already upset family. 
Much of the paperwork now in my possession does not add up, times, dates, names and the asterisk mark used on a perfectly well behaved pony?  the vets are refusing to comment, in fact have closed their doors to any further questions. 
If everything was correct why the reluctance to answer valid questions. Questions that would help us let go and offer some peace. 
Thanks for the information so far, and yes I agree when four people are present who had to make a decision based on terrible circumstances, why the need for a disclaimer.


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## Amymay (8 May 2021)

Was the procedure successful and calm (for the horse)?


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## paddi22 (8 May 2021)

it's so traumatic making the choice to PTS and it's easy to get hung up on details in your grief.  The mark beside the name could be a simple reminder for the vet. I had a pony pts and there was a mark on the paperwork beside its name, when I queried it is was a note because the pony actually required more sedatives and other stuff as it was older and had a weaker heart. it took longer to pts than the younger horse I had done before it. I got the bill back and it had more stuff on it than it usually would, but I could see the vet was having to make a call on the fly about what was needed gauging by the reaction of the pony in front of it. I have had horses put to sleep where I asked what was being used and the vet described it as a 'strong sedative' but I assume that was simplifying it for me? 
Vets put horses to sleep every day as a day to day job and, saying this kindly, they don't usually have conspiracy theories behind the process, and paperwork errors do happen.   We get in very old horses as rescues that get PTS all the time and sometime the vets do make errors and it goes wrong on the day and is extremely distressing, but if you have a vet practice you trust then you have to assume they are making the best call that they can on the day.  from your post it sounds like it is the 
paperwork errors that are causing you the stress though? 

Was the PTS an emergency one? and did the pony got to sleep peacefully?


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## ycbm (8 May 2021)

Mary,  I have been present at one where three drugs were used,  a sedative, a lethal anaesthetic dose and a heart stopper.  The consent form is normal-ish, and signed before any irrevocable step is taken,  so after initial sedation (done as much to prevent the owner's upset from disturbing the horse as anything) is the right timing.  I'm sorry the vet was brusque,  but I'd rather they got the horse bit right and the human bit wrong than the other way around.  The billing was insensitive but the practice might have cash flow issues after Covid, I know two of my local practices have and one has sold out because of it.


You are understandably very upset about the death of your two ponies,  but when the shock and hurt have faded I hope you will be able to see that the only thing that really matters is that they had a calm and peaceful end.  You did them the last and greatest kindness any owner can do.
.


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## Kat (8 May 2021)

I know this is hard and it is an upsetting time but have a think about what you want to achieve and why your questions matter. 

If the animals were put to sleep calmly then does it matter what drugs were used, how many needles there were or whether there is an asterisk against a name? It won't change anything now. 

The consent form sounds like good practice to me, especially if it was not a situation where PTS was the only option and required urgently. 

I understand that you are upset but take a step back and consider where you are going with this, what you want to achieve and whether it makes a difference.


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## meleeka (8 May 2021)

I remember being asked to sign a consent form for my dog.  I think it’s pretty standard but should be done as soon as pts is decided. 

It sounds as though you’ve gone all guns blazing to the vet and they are now refusing to speak to you because you were rude to them.  

It won’t change the outcome, but if you really think there’s been malpractice, contact the practice manager/ governing body and make an official complaint.


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## mary pearce (8 May 2021)

No I did not go all guns blazing, on the contrary I have been very calm and polite, assumption is not a helpful answer. But thanks for taking the time to write. 
At the end of the day, as a client why is it so hard to answer simple questions which I have a right to ask.


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## teddypops (8 May 2021)

mary pearce said:



			Yes they did refuse, they have said there is nothing more to say or conclude. Yet there are many unanswered questions. Valid questions regarding conduct, paper work and drugs, drugs that my old vet said are not used to PTS, merely sedatives.
Why the little pony was marked up. Why was his passport stamped at the back without our knowledge in January when he had his injections. (regarding exclusion from human consumption) No vet has ever signed this prior. 
Why was there only mention of two drugs in the conformation email received afterwards at my request, but now after asking questions yesterday a third drug, being the correct one, has now been added on new paperwork. 
It is soul destroying to say the least x
		
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The part of the passport that is signed not for human consumption has to be signed by a vet if pony has had drugs such as Bute, however as normal as it is, they usually tell you as the owner has to sign it too. I’m sorry for your loss and heartbreak (I had one pts a year ago, so know how it feels), but I think you are reading a lot into what is probably nothing sinister because of your upset. A lot of vets use consent forms, and maybe they just realised you hadn’t signed it.


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## TheMule (8 May 2021)

Amymay said:



			Was the procedure successful and calm (for the horse)?
		
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This is really the most important question.
Did the horse suffer because of the vet's negligence?
If the answer is 'No' then I'm not really sure what result you're looking to achieve here?


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## ycbm (8 May 2021)

You haven't answered our repeated question about whether their end was calm and peaceful,  Mary.

Assuming that it was,  because you haven't said not,  can't you see that is far more important than an asterisk by a name or how many syringes drugs were given in?

You're a new poster and we know nothing about you, but I'm going to make an assumption that you are displacing your grief at the ponies' deaths into anger at the vet who carried it out, and it's helping none of you. 

Are you challenging the cost?  Because unless you are,  I can't see what it matters what drugs are on the invoice.  If you are,  just pay what you think you owe and ask in writing for an explanation of the rest.

Are you planning to sue for negligence? If so,  then I can see why your vets won't take your calls,  they will need everything in writing for their insurers.

If it wasn't for knowing how grief can affect people,  I would be baffled about being upset that the vet records have an asterisk against a horse name.  If the horse was treated correctly what on earth does it matter?   It doesn't,  but you need something to fight at the moment to assuage your own grief.  That's a completely normal part of the grieving process and I'm very sorry you are going through it. 

Many vets have a hard time being asked to kill animals.  If your ponies had a kind and peaceful end,  please consider the effect of your actions on the veterinary practice and the vets who have to do a job must of us would not countenance.
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## mary pearce (8 May 2021)

No the horse did not suffer, but the paperwork is pitted with mistakes and I see no reason not to answer simple everyday questions as a polite paying client.


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## ester (8 May 2021)

Pony dies quietly = correct drugs were used. PTS without sedation is poor practice.
The signing out of the food chain was correct, and signing a disclaimer seems pretty usual to me (and depending on the circumstances reasons to sedate asap before doing so).


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## mary pearce (8 May 2021)

So, thanks for your opinions, but I also have my own, so lets leave it there because as you say I am new and you don't know me or the anything surrounding the decisions made that day.
So thank you all again.


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## ycbm (8 May 2021)

mary pearce said:



			No the horse did not suffer, but the paperwork is pitted with mistakes and I see no reason not to answer simple everyday questions as a polite paying client.
		
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You haven't described anything which would suggest that the paperwork is incorrect,  though. 

What do you expect to achieve? 
.


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## ycbm (8 May 2021)

mary pearce said:



			So, thanks for your opinions, but I also have my own, so lets leave it there because as you say I am new and you don't know me or the anything surrounding the decisions made that day.
So thank you all again.
		
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OK, I hope you can come to terms with your loss.  You did the last act of a caring owner.  
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## ester (8 May 2021)

We can only go from the information that you have given.


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## Mrs. Jingle (8 May 2021)

I am so sorry you are finding the aftermath of PTS so stressful. Of all the horses I have had to PTS all bar one were given an initial sedative and then a different dose of the 'final' stronger heart stopper, in one horse they did need a larger second dose of the heart stopper as he was not going quietly unfortunately.  So in those cases just two different sedatives were used for the whole process.

My last horse PTS was not given the initial sedative, just straight in with immediate lethal heart stopper and I always regret I did not insist on an initial sedative as it was very distressing to watch him trying to fight the drug.

You do not answer if the horse/pony was an emergency PTS - I think if it is not a pre arranged PTS but an emergency then it could be a vastly different criteria your vet used for PTS than would be under normal end of life circumstances.

Perhaps take a few days to digest everything then write a very clear and concise letter to the practice manager, pointing out that you would just appreciate if someone could take the time to clarify the points that are still concerning you.  I would word it very carefully to show that at this stage anyway, you are not trying to apportion any blame but just trying to understand the sequence of events on the day to help you come to terms with it all, if this is your first PTS of a large animal it could be worth pointing that out to your vet too.

Edited to say all my horses have drugs administered noted on their passport  and signed signed by my vet. This is normal practice.


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## mary pearce (8 May 2021)

Thank you x


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## ycbm (8 May 2021)

Spoiler: euthanasia details



The heart stopper is potassium chloride and it is sometimes given if the lethal dose of anaesthesia is not working quickly enough to kill the horse,  it's not the same drug.  The horse must be heavily anaesthetised before it's used. That's what happened when the one I was with was PTS, it simply wasn't dying,  even though it was right out of it,  so the vet stopped the heart with potassium chloride.  This was a few years back,  there may be better drugs now.


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## Chianti (8 May 2021)

mary pearce said:



			Thank you x
		
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I'm sorry you're so upset. My last horse was PTS but that was nearly ten years ago. I didn't have to sign any paperwork but things may have changed as I expect vets now feel the need to protect themselves by having a record of the client's agreement. I would be very distressed if the form was produced during the process rather than before. It's possible that it should have been done earlier but the vet simply forgot but didn't like to say that they had. My horse couldn't be PTS by the senior vet in the practice as he was away so one of the younger vets came out to do it. I was so focused on my horse that I hadn't realised that her hands were shaking badly as she did the last injection. Someone else who was there noticed it and told me afterwards. I did wonder how many she had actually had to do- she did do it as well as it could be done. I would put everything in writing to the practice manager with copies of any paperwork you have. I think you need to do that to help you come to terms with what's happened. If you don't you will always be questioning it. You are a client and they should have a clear complaints process. If you feel that their response doesn't answer your concerns then raise it with the RCVS. Losing a horse is awful and however it happens there will always be things that you wish could have been done differently.


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## paddi22 (8 May 2021)

Watching a loved animal being PTS causes a massive amount of grief and emotion. That emotion is an energy that has to be channelled somewhere and it's very easy to channel it towards the different target (if that makes sense) instead of really sitting and processing the grief.  We put a lot of horses to sleep here at the rescue and nothing the vet has done seems out of the ordinary at all. They should have explained the consent form to you beforehand as that has distressed you, but it makes sense that the first thing they would do when they arrived was sedate the pony, as animals can get worked up and increase their heart rate when the smell vets and the drugs don't work as well, so it makes sense the first priority was to calm the pony and then deal with paperwork. it is an awful situation for you, and I'd imagine if it was a pony you have to deal with the emotions of younger family members.  but please please for your own sake, don't get too obsessed on paperwork and cause more distress with potentially legal situations or falling out with a vet you normally use. it all genuinely sounds like normal process and a vet who did a professional job and gave a kind end to your much loved pony. grief is a powerful thing and it's very natural not to think clearly after such a traumatic thing. take a few days before you do anything and change your focus to maybe getting a nice memorial for the pony.


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## mary pearce (8 May 2021)

Chianti said:



			I'm sorry you're so upset. My last horse was PTS but that was nearly ten years ago. I didn't have to sign any paperwork but things may have changed as I expect vets now feel the need to protect themselves by having a record of the client's agreement. I would be very distressed if the form was produced during the process rather than before. It's possible that it should have been done earlier but the vet simply forgot but didn't like to say that they had. My horse couldn't be PTS by the senior vet in the practice as he was away so one of the younger vets came out to do it. I was so focused on my horse that I hadn't realised that her hands were shaking badly as she did the last injection. Someone else who was there noticed it and told me afterwards. I did wonder how many she had actually had to do- she did do it as well as it could be done. I would put everything in writing to the practice manager with copies of any paperwork you have. I think you need to do that to help you come to terms with what's happened. If you don't you will always be questioning it. You are a client and they should have a clear complaints process. If you feel that their response doesn't answer your concerns then raise it with the RCVS. Losing a horse is awful and however it happens there will always be things that you wish could have been done differently.
		
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Thank you x


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## mary pearce (8 May 2021)

ester said:



			Pony dies quietly = correct drugs were used. PTS without sedation is poor practice.
The signing out of the food chain was correct, and signing a disclaimer seems pretty usual to me (and depending on the circumstances reasons to sedate asap before doing so).
		
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Correct or not, we should have been informed of any signature going into his passport, we were not. thank you.


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## ester (8 May 2021)

It's interesting you think so, I don't think I ever was as it had to happen to have the treatment.
Very sorry for your loss and hope you get some more closure.


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## brighteyes (8 May 2021)

ycbm said:



			You haven't answered our repeated question about whether their end was calm and peaceful,  Mary.

Assuming that it was,  because you haven't said not,  can't you see that is far more important than an asterisk by a name or how many syringes drugs were given in?

You're a new poster and we know nothing about you, but I'm going to make an assumption that you are displacing your grief at the ponies' deaths into anger at the vet who carried it out, and it's helping none of you.

Are you challenging the cost?  Because unless you are,  I can't see what it matters what drugs are on the invoice.  If you are,  just pay what you think you owe and ask in writing for an explanation of the rest.

Are you planning to sue for negligence? If so,  then I can see why your vets won't take your calls,  they will need everything in writing for their insurers.

If it wasn't for knowing how grief can affect people,  I would be baffled about being upset that the vet records have an asterisk against a horse name.  If the horse was treated correctly what on earth does it matter?   It doesn't,  but you need something to fight at the moment to assuage your own grief.  That's a completely normal part of the grieving process and I'm very sorry you are going through it.

Many vets have a hard time being asked to kill animals.  If your ponies had a kind and peaceful end,  please consider the effect of your actions on the veterinary practice and the vets who have to do a job must of us would not countenance.
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THIS x 1000


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## milliepops (8 May 2021)

ester said:



			It's interesting you think so, I don't think I ever was as it had to happen to have the treatment.
Very sorry for your loss and hope you get some more closure.
		
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no I've never been expressly asked about that, latest one was my homebred when they came to give her first vaccinations.  Vet filled that bit out at same time as filling in batch details etc. I guess it's been a requirement for so long now they don't think it needs mentioning.


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## brighteyes (8 May 2021)

mary pearce said:



			Correct or not, we should have been informed of any signature going into his passport, we were not. thank you.
		
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And here, any sympathy I have lies solely with the vets. They turned up and performed what must be, singly and cumulatively, the hardest of procedure of all and you are moaning about a signature in a passport...

I _always_ thank my vets for their attendance and help after a PTS because I know that while it was hard on me, they have the awfulness of the upset and sadness and loss multiple times a week. We have often cried together.


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## teddypops (8 May 2021)

mary pearce said:



			Correct or not, we should have been informed of any signature going into his passport, we were not. thank you.
		
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Why is this an issue?


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## brighteyes (8 May 2021)

teddypops said:



			Why is this an issue?
		
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I'm struggling to see, too. And am actually upset for the vets involved.


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## MiJodsR2BlinkinTite (8 May 2021)

ycbm said:



			Mary,  I have been present at one where three drugs were used,  a sedative, a lethal anaesthetic dose and a heart stopper.  The consent form is normal-ish, and signed before any irrevocable step is taken,  so after initial sedation (done as much to prevent the owner's upset from disturbing the horse as anything) is the right timing.  I'm sorry the vet was brusque,  but I'd rather they got the horse bit right and the human bit wrong than the other way around. 
.
		
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^^^ This is what was done for mine. 

I would respectfully suggest to you OP that perhaps, just perhaps, your vets are not the best at doing paperwork!! This is often the case; a vet perhaps will be rushed and/or harried, and trying soooh incredibly hard to be a "good vet" and treat the (animal) patient respectfully and well if it is a PTS event, as well as looking out for the owner, that perhaps the paperwork is less than desirable. I would much much rather have a damn good vet who does a difficult (and sad) job well, but who's paperwork is a total disaster, than t'other way round.

I rather think this might be the case with your vet here on this sad occasion.

May I, as respectfully and gently as possible, and alongside the wisdom of others on here, encourage you to move on from this........ I feel you are causing yourself unnecessary distress by dwelling on what you perceive as a "paperwork" and/or "billing" issue. I would also very gently suggest that you might be deflecting your very natural feelings of loss and sadness, and grief, by focussing on this issue.

I feel you would really benefit from talking through your feelings with a professional; seriously, grief whether over a human friend or an animal one, is a very real thing and I think you would find it helpful to share this with someone. I have seen posters up in vets about this, and recommending an organisation, but can't remember what it is (sorry). Whatever, I would gently but firmly urge you to seek help............ sending hugs.


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## Mrs. Jingle (8 May 2021)

I believe BHS  do have an end of life bereavement service for horse owners.  Here is the link to the Blue Cross one that encompasses all pets small or large, hopefully you might get some help to resolve any issues that are preventing you from moving on from you sad experience. https://www.bluecross.org.uk/pet-bereavement-and-pet-loss


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## Redders (8 May 2021)

Is there a cost implication for disposal if signed out of food chain? I chose not to go into equine vet practice so don’t follow costs for disposal, but if it’s more expensive to dispose when signed out of food chain, maybe OP was expecting one method of disposal and found out that couldn’t happen due to PTS by injection and previous medications given and hadn’t realised this was the case? 
if it doesn’t make a difference then I’m just making leaps and I apologise


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## ester (8 May 2021)

Excellent point MrsJ


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## milliepops (8 May 2021)

misunderstood redders - ignore!


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## Murphy88 (8 May 2021)

OP, I'm an equine vet and would be happy to answer questions re the drugs used to help put your mind at rest. I would standardly use 2 syringes for euthanasia, one with sedative (either one drug or a combo of 2-3) and one with euthanasia solution. There are a couple of main euthanasia drugs and choice of which to use depends on vet preference. 

Re the passport - as others have mentioned, it is now standard to sign it and is a legal requirement. Basically every horse has had a sachet of bute at some point in their life, and if you don't know their full history you have to assume they have. It is our legal responsibility to sign that section of the passport, and isn't actually up to the owner whether it is signed unless the owner can guarantee the horse has never received drugs that make it ineligible for the food chain (ie owned the horse it's whole life and it has never needed veterinary treatment). 

Also re the consent form (which I would guess is what the disclaimer was). Unfortunately, in the current litigation culture, vets have to cover themselves against all eventualities - gone are the days when those older male vets could do whatever they wanted, those of us now in the profession sadly live our life in fear of being sued and it is reflected in extra paperwork. One part of this is signed consent for procedures including euthanasia. Now, there are definitely cases where some vets may choose not to do this, perhaps where they have a long term relationship with clients, but even if they do ask for a form, it is not meant to cause distress or as a suggestion that you are not a "good client" but simply as part of protocol.


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## brighteyes (8 May 2021)

I have always asked that they please do not send me a bill as I can't bear to look at the details. I call up later or first thing the following day and settle in full. The amount I have paid always seems very fair.
Also, as we bury ours, nobody signs anything, but that bit would be the least of my worries or sadness.


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## paddy555 (8 May 2021)

mary pearce said:



			Yes they did refuse, they have said there is nothing more to say or conclude. Yet there are many unanswered questions. Valid questions regarding conduct, paper work and drugs, drugs that my old vet said are not used to PTS, merely sedatives.
Why the little pony was marked up. Why was his passport stamped at the back without our knowledge in January when he had his injections. (regarding exclusion from human consumption) No vet has ever signed this prior.
Why was there only mention of two drugs in the conformation email received afterwards at my request, but now after asking questions yesterday a third drug, being the correct one, has now been added on new paperwork.
It is soul destroying to say the least x
		
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there are so many explanations to your questions and none of them are sinister. 
Why did you have to sign to allow PTS? I have looked online and it does seem to happen for horses. 

This is a quote from one vet firm, Priors farm. Just one I picked at random 
_Once the decision has been made we will need a consent form signed by the owner to allow us to carry out the procedure. In certain circumstances this may not be possible so if this is the case a signature of consent from an agent present will be needed._

Possibly this should have been produced at the start but then again the vet may have thought sedation was the most important thing. Possibly he wondered if you would want to change your mind and gave you a chance to do so after sedating. I suspect some people may have done when they really had to sign the form. (that of course may well not have been in the best interests of their pony) 

Why 2 doses of sedation? I have had several horses where the vet has given the normal dose based on the weight (both PTS and just to operate on the horse) and has then seen it is not enough so they top it up. They cannot always tell how a horse will react to sedation, some need sufficient to sedate an elephant, some are just within normal guidelines. They could well have used the 2 syringes for the sedative if they had to top it up. 

The final injection.This appears not to have been included on your e mail/bill to start with. It was obviously used. It could simply have been omitted from the paperwork, vet didn't note it down and presumed the clerical staff would do as it would obviously have been required. Why only 2 syringes? Possibly vet reused one of the syringes for the final injection. 

I can see one explanation for the asterix and that could simply be to note a sadly deceased animal. It could well be their practice after PTS that vet notes the record with an asterix. Possibly this is known in the practice so that no one inadvertently talks to the owner as if the horse is still alive. Another reason could be to note that passport has been signed out of the food chain.

As for signing and stamping the passport this is really nothing sinister and not even something I would think they would need to discuss or even ask you. It is a requirement for certain drugs. Some vets have been very lax about this. My old practice had a panic about this and rang quite unexpectedly and asked me to get all my passports down that day to get the vet to sign them. No choice, bring them or none of the drugs you want. I picked them up the next day and from the receptionists comments I guessed they had previously been lax in this department. Your vets  may simply have been given the instruction when you go out to vaccinate make sure the passport is signed out. When I got a new horse that needed vaccinating vet not only filled in the tetanus he also signed it out. Just standard practice. 

I'm really sorry you are still so distressed. Like many on here my criteria for PTS are that vet turns up asap, he gets sedative in and the horse calm asap and then it is PTS as calmly as possible with no struggle or upset from the horse. If that happens it has been a good day at a terrible time. 

If you are paying for a call out, possibly examination and 3 injections then that seems to be in order. I'm not sure why it matters about the paperwork unless of course they charged you for anything over and above the PTS injections and associated costs. 

We all feel for you (and everyone else ) when a horse has to be PTS but it is really difficult to see what particular part is causing your distress. Of course your vets should provide the info you want but maybe they are struggling a little as well?


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## piglet2001 (8 May 2021)

In all honesty I don’t know what all the fuss is about. It seems your vets have done everything by the book and your horse had a peaceful end. I genuinely cannot see any problem. Personally I can see why your vets are no longer communicating with you.


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## MadJ (9 May 2021)

mary pearce said:



			Yes they did refuse, they have said there is nothing more to say or conclude. Yet there are many unanswered questions. Valid questions regarding conduct, paper work and drugs, drugs that my old vet said are not used to PTS, merely sedatives.
Why the little pony was marked up. Why was his passport stamped at the back without our knowledge in January when he had his injections. (regarding exclusion from human consumption) No vet has ever signed this prior.
Why was there only mention of two drugs in the conformation email received afterwards at my request, but now after asking questions yesterday a third drug, being the correct one, has now been added on new paperwork.
It is soul destroying to say the least x
		
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If it helps you in anyway regarding the passport being stamped, my vet informed me at the last visit that they were having to clamp down on that particular part of the passport being signed. This is orders coming from above so I was told. I found out I had missed filling in that part for one of mine.

Regarding the pts issue, I can sympathise as I've have been in a similar position and although my horse also passed peacefully once it was completed, the unnecessary delay from the vet after the sedative was administered made the whole experience much more traumatising for me than it needed to be. I knew what the procedure entailed and was mentally prepared so to have a spanner thrown in to the works at such an emotional time was horrific. I totally agree that once the vet had started, ie sedated your horse, they should not have then pulled out paperwork for you to sign. This should have been done either before or after.


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## Red-1 (9 May 2021)

I think the one thing the vet did wrong was not answer your queries after the event. I suspect that is because they fear a complaint of some sort and their advice from insurers will be to not talk with the client in that case.

When Charlie Horse was PTS, he had a sedative as soon as the vet arrived, and was then left in peace while we did paperwork. He was led down the yard to the lawn, swaying a bit, and the vet did a final "are you sure" before the injection went in.

I had made a special request, to have 6X the dose required available to give. My old vet had told me of a time when he had 3x the required amount and it was the worst day of his working life as the horse fought it and was plunging round the driveway, refusing to go down. Needing a top up isn't as unusual as you may think.

TBH, I don't remember the details of what I signed, my attention was on my horse. I just signed. It needed signing for PTS to happen, I wanted PTS to happen, so I signed. I can well imagine people, in the past, have watched the administration of the final injection and changed their minds. I can see why the vet feels the need to protect themselves. I did value the kindness of the vet, the peaceful passing and the efficiency with which they had arranged collection.

I have no idea what the asterix was for, it could simply be for a pony. My passports have all had to be signed out, the vet won't give any treatment without.

TBH, it sounds like you have now lost the trust with this vet, I would change vets to a new practice. I don't think they have done anything wrong, but at times of grief, we can put meaning on stuff. Changing vets would mean a fresh start for you and your other horse.

I can't see that pursuing this vets will get you anywhere. The relationship has broken down. I don't think they owe you money, as you wanted PTS and they did, with a calm end for the horse. The horse is PTS, the bill (presumably) paid, but the relationship broken. A new vet, new start would be in order, I think.


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## mary pearce (9 May 2021)

MadJ said:



			If it helps you in anyway regarding the passport being stamped, my vet informed me at the last visit that they were having to clamp down on that particular part of the passport being signed. This is orders coming from above so I was told. I found out I had missed filling in that part for one of mine.

Regarding the pts issue, I can sympathise as I've have been in a similar position and although my horse also passed peacefully once it was completed, the unnecessary delay from the vet after the sedative was administered made the whole experience much more traumatising for me than it needed to be. I knew what the procedure entailed and was mentally prepared so to have a spanner thrown in to the works at such an emotional time was horrific. I totally agree that once the vet had started, ie sedated your horse, they should not have then pulled out paperwork for you to sign. This should have been done either before or after.
		
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## mary pearce (9 May 2021)

MadJ said:



			If it helps you in anyway regarding the passport being stamped, my vet informed me at the last visit that they were having to clamp down on that particular part of the passport being signed. This is orders coming from above so I was told. I found out I had missed filling in that part for one of mine.

Regarding the pts issue, I can sympathise as I've have been in a similar position and although my horse also passed peacefully once it was completed, the unnecessary delay from the vet after the sedative was administered made the whole experience much more traumatising for me than it needed to be. I knew what the procedure entailed and was mentally prepared so to have a spanner thrown in to the works at such an emotional time was horrific. I totally agree that once the vet had started, ie sedated your horse, they should not have then pulled out paperwork for you to sign. This should have been done either before or after.
		
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Thank you x


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## mary pearce (9 May 2021)

milliepops said:



			no I've never been expressly asked about that, latest one was my homebred when they came to give her first vaccinations.  Vet filled that bit out at same time as filling in batch details etc. I guess it's been a requirement for so long now they don't think it needs mentioning.
		
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mary pearce said:



			Thank you x
		
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mary pearce said:



			Thank you x
		
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brighteyes said:



			I'm struggling to see, too. And am actually upset for the vets involved.
		
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teddypops said:



			Why is this an issue?
		
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teddypops said:



			Why is this an issue?
		
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Because the human consumption part states, to be signed on new ownership and we had had fourteen years. It doesn't matter now does it. So thanks anyway.


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## paddi22 (9 May 2021)

mary pearce said:



			Because the human consumption part states, to be signed on new ownership and we had had fourteen years. It doesn't matter now does it. So thanks anyway.
		
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but the vet had given the pony drugs that would be lethal if eaten by a human. the vet would have no control over what you decided to do with the body, they HAD to sign it out of the human food chain as correct practice.


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## mary pearce (9 May 2021)

It was signed January 15 2021 when he had his jabs, I only noticed this a few days ago, as no vet has ever gone into the back of his passport in the past. Equally the bit next to it where the new owner should sign beside the vet, is blank, so its not just grief. thank you anyway.


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## mary pearce (9 May 2021)

piglet2001 said:



			In all honesty I don’t know what all the fuss is about. It seems your vets have done everything by the book and your horse had a peaceful end. I genuinely cannot see any problem. Personally I can see why your vets are no longer communicating with you.
		
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See no reason not to answer logical questions.


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## teddypops (9 May 2021)

mary pearce said:



			It was signed January 15 2021 when he had his jabs, I only noticed this a few days ago, as no vet has ever gone into the back of his passport in the past. Equally the bit next to it where the new owner should sign beside the vet, is blank, so its not just grief. thank you anyway.
		
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Why did you not sign it? Why did you not get the vet to sign it when you first got the horse?  Why do you think the vet is at fault?


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## Apizz2019 (9 May 2021)

mary pearce said:



			Has anyone ever had to sign a disclaimer half way through having their horse PTS? I am deeply scarred by the severity of such unexpected,  conduct.
		
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Firstly, I'm very sorry for your loss. 

Our pony was pts in Feb 2020.
I didn't have to sign a disclaimer but have been with the same vet practice for a good few years. Our pony being pts was discussed and organised a few days before the sad event.

The vets signed the back of our boys passport when they visited a few months previously to give vaccinations - I believe this is now standard practice, unless explicitly stated otherwise, to ensure they don't enter the food chain. 

I'd imagine, given the sue culture we live in, that many vets nowadays ask for consent forms to be signed, to ensure there can be no comeback from clients at a later date, though signing midway through being pts does seem a little insensitive. 

That said, your post doesn't say if this was planned euthanasia or an emergency, nor how long you've been with the practice - all of these would influence the situation. 

I do agree however, that your queries should be answered. I'm not sure why your practice won't give you the answers you need to give closure to the matters concerning you. 

What I will say is, I don't believe euthanasia is something a vet ever sees as just part of their job. The vet who put our pony to sleep stayed with me while I kissed our pony goodbye, she clutched his headcollar and cried with me. Her tears and the compassion she showed will stay with me forever. 

The practice sent me a lovely card and told me not to worry about the bill and to call them to pay when I was ready to. They also organised disposal for me and even the chap who took him away was compassionate and gave me a hug and treated our boy with the utmost of respect. 

I echo what others have said about reaching out for support. I'm very resilient, nothing really bothers me, but this broke me. I've never felt a sorrow like it and I got professional help. 

Sending you strength and love - you're not alone.


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## Pearlsasinger (9 May 2021)

I hope that a few days' distance from the sad event has given you a chance to look back and be glad that the pony went peacefully and be grateful for that.  I have had 2 pts by injection and I can't say that either procedure was smooth or peaceful, despite the fact that there was no other option left for either horse, which is why all my other horses have been shot when pts became necessary.

It is very sad when a beloved pet has come to the end of its life, whatever the reason.  I always try to make sure that there isn't a crowd of upset bystanders and the professional can get on with the job unhindered.

As Red-1 says, it sounds as if your relationship with the vet practice has broken down and you will both be happier if you change practice.  I hope there is another equine practice not too far away from you.


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## mary pearce (9 May 2021)

teddypops said:



			Why did you not sign it? Why did you not get the vet to sign it when you first got the horse?  Why do you think the vet is at fault?
		
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I have been using vets for 14 years for him and no one ever said it needed signing, but then there was never any new ownership.


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## mary pearce (9 May 2021)

Apizz2019 said:



			Firstly, I'm very sorry for your loss.

Our pony was pts in Feb 2020.
I didn't have to sign a disclaimer but have been with the same vet practice for a good few years. Our pony being pts was discussed and organised a few days before the sad event.

The vets signed the back of our boys passport when they visited a few months previously to give vaccinations - I believe this is now standard practice, unless explicitly stated otherwise, to ensure they don't enter the food chain.

I'd imagine, given the sue culture we live in, that many vets nowadays ask for consent forms to be signed, to ensure there can be no comeback from clients at a later date, though signing midway through being pts does seem a little insensitive.

That said, your post doesn't say if this was planned euthanasia or an emergency, nor how long you've been with the practice - all of these would influence the situation.

I do agree however, that your queries should be answered. I'm not sure why your practice won't give you the answers you need to give closure to the matters concerning you.

What I will say is, I don't believe euthanasia is something a vet ever sees as just part of their job. The vet who put our pony to sleep stayed with me while I kissed our pony goodbye, she clutched his headcollar and cried with me. Her tears and the compassion she showed will stay with me forever.

The practice sent me a lovely card and told me not to worry about the bill and to call them to pay when I was ready to. They also organised disposal for me and even the chap who took him away was compassionate and gave me a hug and treated our boy with the utmost of respect.

I echo what others have said about reaching out for support. I'm very resilient, nothing really bothers me, but this broke me. I've never felt a sorrow like it and I got professional help.

Sending you strength and love - you're not alone.
		
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Thank you for your kind words, I was not offered any words of comfort, the whole thing was very unexpected and cold, what I would have given for some compassion that day. I feel destroyed by the whole conduct. Thank you for being real.


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## paddy555 (9 May 2021)

mary pearce said:



			I have been using vets for 14 years for him and no one ever said it needed signing, but then there was never any new ownership.
		
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why would anyone need to say. It is in black and white in the passport for the owner to read and comply with. 

Looking at one of  my Pet ID passports it says, section 1X

medicinal treatment, 
excludes the animal from slaughter for human consumption etc must be re confirmed when animal changes hands

date and place, name and sig of owner, name and sig of vet 

This is a declaration of:- I as the owner declare the animal is not intended for human consumption. 

(There is a part underneath where it can be signed that the animal is intended for human consumption)

many official documents need the owner's signature. You  may not have been aware of it and no harm done but it is really not the fault of the vet who simply complied with the law by completing it.


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## brighteyes (9 May 2021)

mary pearce said:



			Thank you for your kind words, I was not offered any words of comfort, the whole thing was very unexpected and cold, what I would have given for some compassion that day. I feel destroyed by the whole conduct. Thank you for being real.
		
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That is very unusual - were decisions made there and then with some uncertainty and reluctance? It sounds almost as though you disagreed with the PTS and events are replaying in your head now. The length of time you have been with the practice makes this seem even stranger. Were you in shock at the outcome of the visit? None of this is very clear and you seem fixated on trivia, which is what we aren't getting the relevance of.


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## ester (9 May 2021)

I really am confused why the vet legally doing what is required in order to give medication is a problem.


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## Cherryblossom (9 May 2021)

Part of me wonders whether it became clear to the vet during the process of PTS that you were likely to blame/go after them.
I work in medicine and for some things verbal consent is enough but if you anticipate the person causing difficulties or claiming they weren’t told of XYZ then I’d always get written consent so it’s there in black and white. I wonder whether your vet initially thought they should get the bad bit done and have you fill in the paperwork afterwards, but then realised that was going to be a bad idea.

I don’t say this to get at you, but unless there’s a lot you’re not telling, your reaction seems extremely out of proportion. I wonder if you’re having an extreme grief reaction, which is totally understandable, and are clutching at whatever you can to be able to blame someone for losing your horse. At the end of the day, you made sure your friend of 14 years didn’t suffer for any longer, they were let go gently and with their person there and they’re not living a life of pain. You did the right thing by them, and your vet did too; even if they didn’t manage you well, it sounds like they managed your horse well. And that surely is the most important thing.


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## brighteyes (9 May 2021)

The more I think about it, the more I get a feeling of 'partial refund'. The professionals have decided trying to be reasonable is going nowhere and the OP has come here looking for backup.

Having heard first-hand recounts of 'after the event previously satisfied customers becoming suddenly dissatisfied' and only being pacified with a refund...


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## poiuytrewq (9 May 2021)

So sorry for your loss op.
I agree with the majority though that the signature is perfectly normal. Would you expect permission to be sought before stamping the vaccination page? I think it’s the exact same thing. 
I did once argue a euthanasia bill, well my OH did on my behalf. It took one call and the bill was wiped, along with a huge apology. In this situation though, to me it sounds like the vet came and did the job required. I do think the signature on a disclaimer (something I’ve never seen or signed) should have been done prior to the start of the procedure. 
I think you could be driving yourself mad over this and maybe need to try and let it go for your own sanity. 
Be kind to yourself, you need time to grieve and I almost feel you can’t face that and are keeping going with this fight to put off the inevitable?


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## paddi22 (9 May 2021)

It seems like you were very unhappy with the manner and approach of the vet on the day.  That is a valid point if it caused you upset and you have constructive feedback that could give them to improve the process. But it seems like you are trying to get back at the vet and punish  by searching for these paperwork issues.  And everything you have mentioned they did has been completely normal and correct behaviour by them.


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## Ownedby4horses (9 May 2021)

OP, I just don’t understand what the issue is. Ive always filled out the excemption bit on all my horse’s passports as soon as I got them (for me it is usual to flick through the whole passport when I’ve got a horse, as I would imagine it is for most.   I signed the excemption bit for two reasons, I’m a veggie, so it’s just too weird to think about any of my horses ending up in the food chain and also, I’m a realist, I’ve owned horses for a very long time and with past experience, most horses will at some point have something from the vet that will exclude them from the food chain. I had a new livery and the vet signed the exception page immediately during vaccination. Every vet I’ve ever had has checked that page is signed, so it is routine.

With regards to the vet, they’ve done absolutely nothing wrong, I don’t believe you have explained if it was planned PTS or emergency yet?  I’ve had many animals PTS, the last was last July, while in the UK, it was an emergency and the priority was sedation and pain relief to allow me to sign the authorisation and for me to make absolute certain that was my decision and to say farewell (there was an extremely small percentage chance of recovery). The vet that put my lovely boy to sleep was noticeably traumatised as I was so incredibly upset and she was in floods of tears too and despite social distancing, we just had to hug each other (we were both in masks) and I told her how very grateful I was that she was able to end his pain for him.

Do not underestimate the effect that putting an animal to sleep can have on a vet. It may well have been that the vet in question finds that the way that they only can deal with having to carry that out, as being ”business like”, rather than collapsing into pieces themselves.

I can’t recall the figures but there is an incredibly high percentage of suicides in vets and I can imagine dealing with PTS and owners in that awful situation is a big part of that.  I would really hate to know how your vet is currently feeling, as you seem to be pursuing something that isn’t obvious.

The Asterix for me - the most logical reason for me would simply be an office mark, a way of signifying that the animal has been PTS, so that they didn’t cause any distress sending out vaccination reminders etc.

Youve been given some really good advice on here already and I am sure your heart and head is all over the place, i definitely would recommend using the BHS service to talk to someone and help you come to terms with your grief.

You have my thoughts and prayers at this sad time. x


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## brighteyes (9 May 2021)

Ownedby4horses said:



			OP, I just don’t understand what the issue is. Ive always filled out the excemption bit on all my horse’s passports as soon as I got them (for me it is usual to flick through the whole passport when I’ve got a horse, as I would imagine it is for most.   I signed the excemption bit for two reasons, I’m a veggie, so it’s just too weird to think about any of my horses ending up in the food chain and also, I’m a realist, I’ve owned horses for a very long time and with past experience, most horses will at some point have something from the vet that will exclude them from the food chain. I had a new livery and the vet signed the exception page immediately during vaccination. Every vet I’ve ever had has checked that page is signed, so it is routine.

With regards to the vet, they’ve done absolutely nothing wrong, I don’t believe you have explained if it was planned PTS or emergency yet?  I’ve had many animals PTS, the last was last July, while in the UK, it was an emergency and the priority was sedation and pain relief to allow me to sign the authorisation and for me to make absolute certain that was my decision and to say farewell (there was an extremely small percentage chance of recovery). The vet that put my lovely boy to sleep was noticeably traumatised as I was so incredibly upset and she was in floods of tears too and despite social distancing, we just had to hug each other (we were both in masks) and I told her how very grateful I was that she was able to end his pain for him.

Do not underestimate the effect that putting an animal to sleep can have on a vet. It may well have been that the vet in question finds that the way that they only can deal with having to carry that out, as being ”business like”, rather than collapsing into pieces themselves.

I can’t recall the figures but there is an incredibly high percentage of suicides in vets and I can imagine dealing with PTS and owners in that awful situation is a big part of that.  I would really hate to know how your vet is currently feeling, as you seem to be pursuing something that isn’t obvious.

The Asterix for me - the most logical reason for me would simply be an office mark, a way of signifying that the animal has been PTS, so that they didn’t cause any distress sending out vaccination reminders etc.

Youve been given some really good advice on here already and I am sure your heart and head is all over the place, i definitely would recommend using the BHS service to talk to someone and help you come to terms with your grief.

You have my thoughts and prayers at this sad time. x
		
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Good reply BUT * <-- this is an asterisk
Whereas _this_ is Asterix!


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## Ownedby4horses (9 May 2021)

Ha, you got me! Love the pic! My head is currently a mix of English and Danish with learning the language and my English spelling is now all over the place. x


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## Mrs. Jingle (9 May 2021)

It has occurred to me since previous post, that perhaps you had one of two choices going on, and that is why you are having difficulty moving on. You do not give any detail and unfortunately that will lead to you get some not very helpful replies when people  are not given the full facts about why your horse was PTS? It would perhaps be helpful and useful for those of us that have tried to help with your concerns and grief so far if you could clarify?

One: the vet came out to your horse and whatever he found when he examined the horse he felt very strongly that the horse should immediately be PTS - you may not have entirely agreed with his opinion. A vet will never 'tell' someone to PTS an animal but will give their opinion and quite clearly tell you by not PTS the animal is unnecessarily suffering a great deal of pain etc. Perhaps this is why you are obviously not happy with the vet who PTS for you?

or

Two: For your own personal reasons you wanted your horse PTS but when your vet arrived and examined the horse they felt you were asking them to PTS a perfectly happy and sound animal. Of course that is your choice, but a vet can refuse in which case you would have to source another vet to PTS for you, or they may agree but tell you quite strongly that they are not happy carrying out your wishes. Perhaps this second example is why you are not happy with this vet?


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## brighteyes (9 May 2021)

Ownedby4horses said:



			Ha, you got me! Love the pic! My head is currently a mix of English and Danish with learning the language and my English spelling is now all over the place. x
		
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You aren't the first offender on this thread - but yours got a capital A


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## brighteyes (9 May 2021)

Mrs Jingle said:



			It has occurred to me since previous post, that perhaps you had one of two choices going on, and that is why you are having difficulty moving on. You do not give any detail and unfortunately that will lead to you get some not very helpful replies when people  are not given the full facts about why your horse was PTS? It would perhaps be helpful and useful for those of us that have tried to help with your concerns and grief so far if you could clarify?

One: the vet came out to your horse and whatever he found when he examined the horse he felt very strongly that the horse should immediately be PTS - you may not have entirely agreed with his opinion. A vet will never 'tell' someone to PTS an animal but will give their opinion and quite clearly tell you by not PTS the animal is unnecessarily suffering a great deal of pain etc. Perhaps this is why you are obviously not happy with the vet who PTS for you?

or

Two: For your own personal reasons you wanted your horse PTS but when your vet arrived and examined the horse they felt you were asking them to PTS a perfectly happy and sound animal. Of course that is your choice, but a vet can refuse in which case you would have to source another vet to PTS for you, or they may agree but tell you quite strongly that they are not happy carrying out your wishes. Perhaps this second example is why you are not happy with this vet?
		
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Ooooh -  

The lack of detail makes me wonder what the situation actually was and everyone to these perplexed replies.


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## brighteyes (9 May 2021)

Disclaimer - I am sure there are occasionally legitimate complaints arising from an attending vet's actions but these are usually settled behind the scenes quietly and quickly. It'd have to be a seriously bad and definite fault for me to think of questioning a vet and/or asking on a forum without giving specifics.


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## Mrs. Jingle (9 May 2021)

brighteyes said:



			Ooooh - 

The lack of detail makes me wonder what the situation actually was and everyone to these perplexed replies.
		
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I am not trying to make the OP feel uncomfortable about whatever way the decision to PTS arrived, just feel now I have read more from others and on reflection, it does seem a little unfair on those of us who have tried to help and have taken the time to reply not to simply clarify that very important detail.  

To me it is the only thing that makes sense why the OP is clinging on to these very minor details to castigate the vet and feel better about the decision if they get answers on purely minor paperwork matters?


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## Apizz2019 (9 May 2021)

mary pearce said:



			Thank you for your kind words, I was not offered any words of comfort, the whole thing was very unexpected and cold, what I would have given for some compassion that day. I feel destroyed by the whole conduct. Thank you for being real.
		
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I've yet to meet a vet that hasn't been compassionate when the end has come. This is very sad to hear and I'm sorry you didn't have the best experience, if there can ever be a good experience in the most terrible circumstances. 

Reaching out to professionals helped me no end. I still have the odd day when I break down over it but it doesn't consume every waking moment quite like it did.


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## southerncomfort (9 May 2021)

Apizz2019 said:



			I've yet to meet a vet that hasn't been compassionate when the end has come. This is very sad to hear and I'm sorry you didn't have the best experience, if there can ever be a good experience in the most terrible circumstances. 

Reaching out to professionals helped me no end. I still have the odd day when I break down over it but it doesn't consume every waking moment quite like it did.
		
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I've found male vets to be quiet and respectful rather than openly comforting. 
I guess this could be misconstrued as being uncaring.


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## Apizz2019 (9 May 2021)

southerncomfort said:



			I've found male vets to be quiet and respectful rather than openly comforting. 
I guess this could be misconstrued as being uncaring.
		
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You could be right there., although I've found male vets to be openly comforting too, albeit minus tears.


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## poiuytrewq (9 May 2021)

I don’t think I’d want a vet to try and comfort me. I can hold it together calmly until they leave. If a vet cried I’m not sure I’d handle that... is that weird?!


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## Griffin (9 May 2021)

OP, I am sorry for the loss of your horse.

I have always had to sign a consent form before having any pet PTS (with the exception of when the hunt has come out) but it has always been in advance of the procedure starting.

I think also vets and veterinary practices can vary in how good they are at these most sensitive of times but that is often not intentional. It must be hard to PTS a much loved pet with their distressed owner there, they only have one chance to get it right. In my experience, I have never had a vet hug me or pat me on the arm (I wouldn't expect them too, especially at the moment) but they have always been very sympathetic.  

I had a cat PTS during the first lockdown and it was really upsetting (we had to do it outside in the car park). My cat went very peacefully and it was undoubtedly the right thing for him but doing it outside in full view of anyone who walked past the car park was not the best situation for me. Then I got the bill the next day asking to be paid within seven days due to lack of money and Covid-19.  While I was not particularly impressed with that (it seemed a bit callous), it was obviously just their standard bill format and information, it was not intentional.

I think what I am trying to say in a very meandering way is that sometimes we have to try to accept that a good death for the animals we love may still be traumatic for us in different ways.


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## ycbm (10 May 2021)

southerncomfort said:



			I've found male vets to be quiet and respectful rather than openly comforting.
I guess this could be misconstrued as being uncaring.
		
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There are also vets who find killing a horse very upsetting,  and maybe they have to shut down a bit to hold it together themselves and get through the process.  That would come across as very uncaring,  when it is anything but.  The last thing anyone needs is a vet falling apart, I'll settle for distant but professional if that's how they cope with a job they find distressing.
.


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## Pearlsasinger (10 May 2021)

poiuytrewq said:



			I don’t think I’d want a vet to try and comfort me. I can hold it together calmly until they leave. If a vet cried I’m not sure I’d handle that... is that weird?!
		
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No, I thought the same as you when I read about the vet crying.


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## meleeka (10 May 2021)

I had a horrible experience with one of mine.  By the time the decision to pts was made i’d had enough of the attitude of the attending vet.  This was over the course of three visits during the day.  I think part of my anger was directed at him because i was obviously distraught, but he was awful.  In the end I left my OH to deal with the deed while i took my other one for a walk. I made sure I didn’t even see the vet on that last visit.   Thankfully his pts skills were better than his bedside manner and I vowed never to let him on my yard again.  luckily he left the practice shortly after. 

I did pay my bill because ultimately, my horse didn’t suffer unduly he did the job that I paid him for.  subsequent times i’ve had one pts have been calm and kind, but not emotional for the vet and I think they were spot on.


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## paddy555 (10 May 2021)

ycbm said:



			There are also vets who find killing a horse very upsetting,  and maybe they have to shut down a bit to hold it together themselves and get through the process.  That would come across as very uncaring,  when it is anything but.  The last thing anyone needs is a vet falling apart, I'll settle for distant but professional if that's how they cope with a job they find distressing.
.
		
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this. I don't want vets putting their arm around me although I have one who would and he would be equally upset as i was. (lovely man) 
My policy is get them here, get horse PTS (and if I have already decided they are told not to examine it) try and remain cheerful with normal conversation,  thank them many times and get them out. Then I can deal with me. 

I would prefer distant. Their job is to remain detached. All I care about is if they are good at  getting the stuff in.
If he was an efficient vet I would use him again whatever his bedside manner. Efficiency is all that matters to me at a time like this.


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## Gamebird (10 May 2021)

Murphy88 said:



			OP, I'm an equine vet and would be happy to answer questions re the drugs used to help put your mind at rest. I would standardly use 2 syringes for euthanasia, one with sedative (either one drug or a combo of 2-3) and one with euthanasia solution. There are a couple of main euthanasia drugs and choice of which to use depends on vet preference.

Re the passport - as others have mentioned, it is now standard to sign it and is a legal requirement. Basically every horse has had a sachet of bute at some point in their life, and if you don't know their full history you have to assume they have. It is our legal responsibility to sign that section of the passport, and isn't actually up to the owner whether it is signed unless the owner can guarantee the horse has never received drugs that make it ineligible for the food chain (ie owned the horse it's whole life and it has never needed veterinary treatment).

Also re the consent form (which I would guess is what the disclaimer was). Unfortunately, in the current litigation culture, vets have to cover themselves against all eventualities - gone are the days when those older male vets could do whatever they wanted, those of us now in the profession sadly live our life in fear of being sued and it is reflected in extra paperwork. One part of this is signed consent for procedures including euthanasia. Now, there are definitely cases where some vets may choose not to do this, perhaps where they have a long term relationship with clients, but even if they do ask for a form, it is not meant to cause distress or as a suggestion that you are not a "good client" but simply as part of protocol.
		
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I am also an equine vet, of over 20 years standing. Threads like this make me want to either cry, or hang up my stethoscope. There is just no way of doing right for doing wrong. I think it is time to retire from social media.


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## paddi22 (10 May 2021)

paddy555 said:



			I would prefer distant. Their job is to remain detached. All I care about is if they are good at  getting the stuff in.
If he was an efficient vet I would use him again whatever his bedside manner. Efficiency is all that matters to me at a time like this.
		
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yeah I'd be the same. I don't expect a vet to put their energy towards comforting me or dealing with my emotions. they have a hard enough day without having to act as counsellors for every client as well. we don't pay them to be therapists, we pay them to put the animal to sleep as peacefully as possible using their professional skills.


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## MurphysMinder (10 May 2021)

paddy555 said:



			this. I don't want vets putting their arm around me although I have one who would and he would be equally upset as i was. (lovely man)
My policy is get them here, get horse PTS (and if I have already decided they are told not to examine it) try and remain cheerful with normal conversation,  thank them many times and get them out. Then I can deal with me.

I would prefer distant. Their job is to remain detached. All I care about is if they are good at  getting the stuff in.
If he was an efficient vet I would use him again whatever his bedside manner. Efficiency is all that matters to me at a time like this.
		
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I think it very much depends on your relationship with the vet.   When I had my pony pts last year the vet who came out was one who had dealt with her many problems over the years   She juggled her appointments so she could be the one to do the deed,  was absolutely lovely and yes did have tears in her eyes and gave me a hug.   She also sent me in the house while pony was taken away and dealt with all that too.   I very much appreciated her care and approach when I was facing a horrible decision on my own.


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## Pearlsasinger (10 May 2021)

paddy555 said:



			this. I don't want vets putting their arm around me although I have one who would and he would be equally upset as i was. (lovely man)
My policy is get them here, get horse PTS (and if I have already decided they are told not to examine it) try and remain cheerful with normal conversation,  thank them many times and get them out. Then I can deal with me.

I would prefer distant. Their job is to remain detached. All I care about is if they are good at  getting the stuff in.
If he was an efficient vet I would use him again whatever his bedside manner. Efficiency is all that matters to me at a time like this.
		
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Absolutely this!  We usually use the local Equine Crem and because she is horsey, we know her socially.  When she comes, she remains practical, sorts out where the deed is to be done, and waits until afterwards to do any chatting to try to remove the emotion from the situation.  I remember on one occasion a discussion about the haylage bale we had in the yard.  We always go in and leave her to do the winching on.  That is one memory that I really don't want or need.  And I certainly don't need her, or a vet patting me on the arm or bursting into tears.


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## Apizz2019 (10 May 2021)

Pearlsasinger said:



			Absolutely this!  We usually use the local Equine Crem and because she is horsey, we know her socially.  When she comes, she remains practical, sorts out where the deed is to be done, and waits until afterwards to do any chatting to try to remove the emotion from the situation.  I remember on one occasion a discussion about the haylage bale we had in the yard.  We always go in and leave her to do the winching on.  That is one memory that I really don't want or need.  And I certainly don't need her, or a vet patting me on the arm or bursting into tears.
		
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Each to their own I guess. I don't think there is a right or wrong way for vets to behave in this situation.

Some of us owners need a hug and some don't.

Either way, I'm sure we all appreciate vets have an incredibly hard job to do and whether we think it or not, they do counsel us through issues with our beloved equines, intentionally or not.

I know a vet very well in a personal capacity and it is the client counselling he finds to be more emotionally draining than the animals he treats.


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## Birker2020 (10 May 2021)

I had a nasty experience when a previous much loved horse was pts as the vet didn't explain about movement/noises afterwards and it greatly affected me when I touched the horse and he moved and grunted (twice).

I was so distressed that I wrote to Horse & Rider Magazine Q&A page and had a lovely one page reply dedicated to euthanasia and what happens before, during and after.

I would urge all vets to explain to owners that this can and does happen and its just the body shutting down.  I too came up with all conspiracy theories and goodness knows what until I read the letter from the vet who the magazine use for replies and I will never forget the kindness shown in explaining it to me in detail.  I just hope it helped other owners.

And the sadness and anger at the vet at the hospital who never took the time to explain and left me frightened and very very upset.


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## paddy555 (10 May 2021)

Birker2020 said:



			I had a nasty experience when a previous much loved horse was pts as the vet didn't explain about movement/noises afterwards and it greatly affected me when I touched the horse and he moved and grunted (twice).

I was so distressed that I wrote to Horse & Rider Magazine Q&A page and had a lovely one page reply dedicated to euthanasia and what happens before, during and after.

I would urge all vets to explain to owners that this can and does happen and its just the body shutting down.  I too came up with all conspiracy theories and goodness knows what until I read the letter from the vet who the magazine use for replies and I will never forget the kindness shown in explaining it to me in detail.  I just hope it helped other owners.

And the sadness and anger at the vet at the hospital who never took the time to explain and left me frightened and very very upset.
		
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I'm sorry you were distressed.

On a more general note there are lots of sites eg BHS an vets giving details as to what happens. If anyone hasn't been  thro this it may help if they do some research so they have a good idea what is going to happen and what they are actually going to do on the day. Do you want to stay with your horse? prefer to leave? how do you get the crem out? would you prefer shooting even what is that policy of your vet. 
Pre warned may help with the distress


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## paddy555 (10 May 2021)

Gamebird said:



			I am also an equine vet, of over 20 years standing. Threads like this make me want to either cry, or hang up my stethoscope. There is just no way of doing right for doing wrong. I think it is time to retire from social media.
		
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I hope you stay. All of mine (about 12 or possibly more) have been PTS by injection. Several different vets and all brilliant. All horses sedated, calm, kissed goodbye and final injection and that was it. No mistakes, all good vets. I don't now what OP's problem was. I suspect that the vet was worried there would be comeback and took the correct action to get the form signed. We will never know. I think the majority on here think you are all doing a pretty good job with PTS and one which many of us would hate.


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## Tiddlypom (10 May 2021)

I'd want a vet to remain practical and slightly detached on the day of PTS.

When the late maxicob was PTS, my usual vet did a superb job as usual, and the only indication that she was upset herself was when she had a slight crack in her voice when she asked after he was gone whether we had something to cover him up with.

I later rang through to the office for them to pass on my thanks to my vet for the fact that everything had gone as well as it could, and the girls were very grateful for the call, they said how hard it is for the vets.


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## ester (10 May 2021)

Mum was a bit surprised to have a hug from the vet the other week but I don't think she minded  actually I know she didn't mind, it had been a pretty bad evening and she had no horsey  person support while going through it.


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## SEL (10 May 2021)

Tiddlypom said:



			I'd want a vet to remain practical and slightly detached on the day of PTS.

When the late maxicob was PTS, my usual vet did a superb job as usual, and the only indication that she was upset herself was when she had a slight crack in her voice when she asked after he was gone whether we had something to cover him up with.

I later rang through to the office for them to pass on my thanks to my vet for the fact that everything had gone as well as it could, and the girls were very grateful for the call, they said how hard it is for the vets.
		
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We had a golden oldie PTS last year and when I saw the vet a few weeks later she said the owner (who had moved hours away but decided not to move her OAP) had sent her a lovely card.

I also sent a card through to the practice who looked after my little pony when she had her operation. They did an incredible job with her and also with the slightly panicking owner who couldn't visit due to covid.

Please, please don't hang up your stethoscopes vets reading this. Its so easy to be disillusioned when you go into a career to help animals and feel that you aren't living your dream. Vet suicide statistics are really bad too, so we really need to put ourselves in their shoes more often and understand how tough their job is.


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## meleeka (10 May 2021)

Birker2020 said:



			I had a nasty experience when a previous much loved horse was pts as the vet didn't explain about movement/noises afterwards and it greatly affected me when I touched the horse and he moved and grunted (twice).
		
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This happened to me too at the first pts I saw (not my horse but a friend who couldn’t cope and left me to it). it really affected me at the time, even though the vet explained once it had happened.  I think it’s the reason I don’t hang around anymore after it’s done.  When it was my own I walked away as she fell.


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## MurphysMinder (10 May 2021)

As the mother of a vet can I say how much your cards , thank you gifts etc are appreciated by the vets who must get so disheartened reading some of the comments posted .


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## SEL (10 May 2021)

MurphysMinder said:



			As the mother of a vet can I say how much your cards , thank you gifts etc are appreciated by the vets who must get so disheartened reading some of the comments posted .
		
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I think we also need to remember how young some of them are. On my last yard we had one of those emergency colics on a wet, cold, rainy winter night. It was an old horse and obvious to all of us that there was no hope. The vet on the call out was really young and I suspect was hoping for an easy 'get some fluids into it' type case. She did her job quickly and professionally but looked absolutely broken as she left.


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## honetpot (10 May 2021)

ycbm said:



			There are also vets who find killing a horse very upsetting,  and maybe they have to shut down a bit to hold it together themselves and get through the process.  That would come across as very uncaring,  when it is anything but.  The last thing anyone needs is a vet falling apart, I'll settle for distant but professional if that's how they cope with a job they find distressing.
.
		
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 I was having a discussion about this yesterday with someone from the emergency services, in their role they see things no one would wish to see, and would be difficult for anyone to process. In the old days, self care was fags and a drink at the back of the wagon.
  I know I have a 'mode', even when handling difficult situations at home, I was in that mode when my mother and father died. I know I look sometimes blank, which sometimes more perceived of not being aware what is going on, when I am fully aware and going through the options. At work, especially when my children were small, it was something I used every shift I worked on the children wards.
  I was watching  an interview with the actress Helen McCorey who described when playing Medea every night, who kills her children, she could not go through those emotions every night, so she learned the skill, to play the part, but not feel the part, still be aware of everything of every thing on stage and covey those emotions to an audience. You need that separation to protect yourself.
 Unfortunately we are often judged on how we appear, and not how competent we are, do you want someone who expresses their emotions or someone who is competent in a difficult situation, but will still internally process what happened later? Are we allowed to be human, and accept some people are less good at looking sympathetic, or so affected by situations their only option is to shut down, but are capable.
  The rate of suicide amongst vets is high as a proportion of the workforce, and there may be other factors that affect this, other 'emergency and health care' teams tend to work in larger groups and have established support networks  
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/18192654/


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## Birker2020 (10 May 2021)

paddy555 said:



			I'm sorry you were distressed.

On a more general note there are lots of sites eg BHS an vets giving details as to what happens. If anyone hasn't been  thro this it may help if they do some research so they have a good idea what is going to happen and what they are actually going to do on the day. Do you want to stay with your horse? prefer to leave? how do you get the crem out? would you prefer shooting even what is that policy of your vet.
Pre warned may help with the distress 

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Thanks, I know more now and I've watched an excellent video on YouTube showing a grey horse called Sugar PTS with injection should anyone feel they want to watch it 



 which is very helpful and cleared up a lot of questions which I didn't really want to ask on here for fear of being picked apart again.

I'm just surprised all vets don't mention this.  My own vet and I had this conversation one evening when she stopped to watch my horse for a while before leaving after I'd called her out for colic.  She said she'd always told people about movement/noise after a horse is pts to warn them.


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## Lurfy (10 May 2021)

There are so many worse ways for horses to die than humane euthanasia. I've been present for several of these endings with different vets and am eternally grateful for their expertise in quickly and quietly dispatching my much loved horses. If the horse had a peaceful ending there is nothing else that matters to me. Signing whatever, asterisks wherever would not eclipse the fact that the horse was pts calmly.


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## Mrs. Jingle (10 May 2021)

I do really hope any vets that might read this thread are not adversely affected by it. I am sure 95 per cent of us on here appreciate what a difficult time any PTS must be for you, and soul destroying if you find yourself in a run of bad luck, with several animals to PTS over a short period of time, and add to that even one owner criticising the sequence of actions that you took during PTS must be very, very difficult to deal with.

My vet when I lived in the UK was sadly one of those who chose to take his own life, you couldn't have met a more caring and compassionate man, and his skills as a vet were second to none.  

No I don't need you to comfort me on a PTS day, that is not part of your job.  I just need you there being professional and efficient and helping me to help my horse leave this world as calmly and quickly as possible. My personal thanks to all of you that do this emotionally draining job day in and day out.


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## Amymay (10 May 2021)

Well said Mrs Jingle 💕💕


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## Apizz2019 (10 May 2021)

Perfectly put, as always @Mrs Jingle  ❤️


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## Pearlsasinger (10 May 2021)

Amymay said:



			Well said Mrs Jingle 💕💕
		
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When I was sitting at my late OH's bedside in hospital, having been called in early in the morning, one of the nurses offered me a hug.  I declined because I knew that would be my undoing and the important thing was  that my OH had a peaceful death.   
I feel the same about  hugs etc from a vet.  I would rather they saved their tears for the journey back to the surgery as I will save mine until after they have left my yard.  I have appreciated a card and flowers after pts from a small animal vet surgery in the past.


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## paddi22 (10 May 2021)

Pearlsasinger said:



			When I was sitting at my late OH's bedside in hospital, having been called in early in the morning, one of the nurses offered me a hug.  I declined because I knew that would be my undoing and the important thing was  that my OH had a peaceful death. 
I feel the same about  hugs etc from a vet.  I would rather they saved their tears for the journey back to the surgery as I will save mine until after they have left my yard.  I have appreciated a card and flowers after pts from a small animal vet surgery in the past.
		
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this totally makes sense. when my mum died we had a night nurse who basically put her to sleep with morphine. she was a lovely down-to-earth lady who was calm and gentle, but didn't hug us or engage with us too much and left very quickly afterwards. I think that was wise behaviour on her part. I think if the professional was to encourage or allow a grieving person to suddenly release a huge amount of emotion in an interaction with them, then they can't just walk off after 5 mins and go to the next job leaving a wailing upset person. if someone is encouraging another person  to release a lot of emotion then they need to be there to help them deal with it and process it.  vets can't be everything to everyone, they are medical professionals there to do a job for the animal. much as they probably would want to comfort the person on a human level, they can't sit and hold someone while they cry for an hour, it's not practical time wise or healthy on any level for either of the parties. I can see why vets need to steel themselves a bit and be workmanlike. obviously if the have a very close relationship with the owner or pet they might let the mask slip a bit, but otherwise their job is to deal with the animal, not us really? .


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## Pearlsasinger (10 May 2021)

paddi22 said:



			this totally makes sense. when my mum died we had a night nurse who basically put her to sleep with morphine. she was a lovely down-to-earth lady who was calm and gentle, but didn't hug us or engage with us too much and left very quickly afterwards. I think that was wise behaviour on her part. I think if the professional was to encourage or allow a grieving person to suddenly release a huge amount of emotion in an interaction with them, then they can't just walk off after 5 mins and go to the next job leaving a wailing upset person. if someone is encouraging another person  to release a lot of emotion then they need to be there to help them deal with it and process it.  vets can't be everything to everyone, they are medical professionals there to do a job for the animal. much as they probably would want to comfort the person on a human level, they can't sit and hold someone while they cry for an hour, it's not practical time wise or healthy on any level for either of the parties. I can see why vets need to steel themselves a bit and be workmanlike. obviously if the have a very close relationship with the owner or pet they might let the mask slip a bit, but otherwise their job is to deal with the animal, not us really? .
		
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Yes, I don't want to be in the position of having to comfort the vet who is in tears on the yard, when I need to concentrate on my own grieving process.


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## poiuytrewq (10 May 2021)

Gamebird said:



			I am also an equine vet, of over 20 years standing. Threads like this make me want to either cry, or hang up my stethoscope. There is just no way of doing right for doing wrong. I think it is time to retire from social media.
		
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I’d say on the contrary, 99% of the replies are on your side.


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## Red-1 (10 May 2021)

poiuytrewq said:



			I don’t think I’d want a vet to try and comfort me. I can hold it together calmly until they leave. If a vet cried I’m not sure I’d handle that... is that weird?!
		
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I am with you there. I used to have to deliver extremely bad news to people, strangers, and I was the same. I was there as a professional, to do a job. I would not have been able to complete my tasks, which were necessary, if I broke down each time.

I have had 2 PTS here, both times the vet was respectful, business like and calm. That is what I need. I will deal with my own emotions afterwards.


Gamebird said:



			I am also an equine vet, of over 20 years standing. Threads like this make me want to either cry, or hang up my stethoscope. There is just no way of doing right for doing wrong. I think it is time to retire from social media.
		
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That would be a shame. I used to work for a vet, looking after post op, as well as reception (and cleaning). I always thought of it as the animal is my client, not the person. It sounds like the animal was taken care of beautifully in this case. Thank goodness we have vets, like you, to help us with out critters.


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## The Jokers Girl (10 May 2021)

mary pearce said:



			Correct or not, we should have been informed of any signature going into his passport, we were not. thank you.
		
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Is your anger based on the fact your pony was signed out of the food chain, but you didn't want it to be and only found out after pts?  It comes across this way in your posts.  I'd be relieved if the vets signed my beloved pet out the food chain, not angry at them, as I wouldn't have to worry about what horrors they would  go through once the end had come. 
 As far as I was aware the vets have a legal obligation to sign that section of the passport if they give them drugs, I.e. bute that means people can't eat the animal. 

 I'm sorry for what may be perceived as a blunt response but I am so confused by some of the posts I don't know how else to word it  Have you misunderstood and thought they were signing them in?
Also why does it matter whether 2 or 3 drugs were used if you pony had a peaceful end?

I am sorry for your loss and hope you recover from your grief and anger and are able to move and on remember the wonderful times you had with your pet with happiness and not sadness x.


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## PurBee (10 May 2021)

Gamebird said:



			I am also an equine vet, of over 20 years standing. Threads like this make me want to either cry, or hang up my stethoscope. There is just no way of doing right for doing wrong. I think it is time to retire from social media.
		
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Whatever actions are taken, in anything, there’s always people who can complain about it. While at the same time there will be those who applaud that action. That’s humanity for you.

Any action we take, if we’re trying to do the best we can, with the information we have at the time, we can walk through life with relative ‘self-ease’.
We can consider others opinions, sure, but ultimately in any moment, all a person has is _their_ knowledge and experience at the time, and try to use it for the best outcome. 

Even if at a future point having gained more experience/knowledge and we look back realising we did wrong, we can be thankful we now have learnt better and won’t repeat the mistake, while taking comfort that at the time, our intent was to do our best.


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## windand rain (10 May 2021)

Having read this thread I am even more convinced I am better having mine shot by a recognised knackerman. Never had any of these issues the bang stays with you but the rest is far more efficient
I say this because I feel for the vet whose job is to save lives not take them the knackermans job is to quickly dispose of life so comes from a different perspective


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## The Jokers Girl (10 May 2021)

Birker2020 said:



			Thanks, I know more now and I've watched an excellent video on YouTube showing a grey horse called Sugar PTS with injection should anyone feel they want to watch it 



 which is very helpful and cleared up a lot of questions which I didn't really want to ask on here for fear of being picked apart again.

I'm just surprised all vets don't mention this.  My own vet and I had this conversation one evening when she stopped to watch my horse for a while before leaving after I'd called her out for colic.  She said she'd always told people about movement/noise after a horse is pts to warn them.
		
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Thank you for posting this.  As hard as it was for me to click on it, knowing it's that quick and painless and peaceful will be a massive comfort When the time comes for mine.  
I'm crying now thinking about it  😢


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## Spirit2021 (10 May 2021)

Don’t get the issue where you against having the horse put to sleep.


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## Birker2020 (10 May 2021)

Spirit2021 said:



			Don’t get the issue where you against having the horse put to sleep.
		
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Is that directed at me?


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## Amymay (10 May 2021)

Birker2020 said:



			Is that directed at me?
		
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?? the op surely 🤷🏻‍♀️


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## Ownedby4horses (10 May 2021)

Ownedby4horses said:



			OP, I just don’t understand what the issue is. Ive always filled out the excemption bit on all my horse’s passports as soon as I got them (for me it is usual to flick through the whole passport when I’ve got a horse, as I would imagine it is for most.   I signed the excemption bit for two reasons, I’m a veggie, so it’s just too weird to think about any of my horses ending up in the food chain and also, I’m a realist, I’ve owned horses for a very long time and with past experience, most horses will at some point have something from the vet that will exclude them from the food chain. I had a new livery and the vet signed the exception page immediately during vaccination. Every vet I’ve ever had has checked that page is signed, so it is routine.

With regards to the vet, they’ve done absolutely nothing wrong, I don’t believe you have explained if it was planned PTS or emergency yet?  I’ve had many animals PTS, the last was last July, while in the UK, it was an emergency and the priority was sedation and pain relief to allow me to sign the authorisation and for me to make absolute certain that was my decision and to say farewell (there was an extremely small percentage chance of recovery). The vet that put my lovely boy to sleep was noticeably traumatised as I was so incredibly upset and she was in floods of tears too and despite social distancing, we just had to hug each other (we were both in masks) and I told her how very grateful I was that she was able to end his pain for him.

Do not underestimate the effect that putting an animal to sleep can have on a vet. It may well have been that the vet in question finds that the way that they only can deal with having to carry that out, as being ”business like”, rather than collapsing into pieces themselves.

I can’t recall the figures but there is an incredibly high percentage of suicides in vets and I can imagine dealing with PTS and owners in that awful situation is a big part of that.  I would really hate to know how your vet is currently feeling, as you seem to be pursuing something that isn’t obvious.

The Asterix for me - the most logical reason for me would simply be an office mark, a way of signifying that the animal has been PTS, so that they didn’t cause any distress sending out vaccination reminders etc.

Youve been given some really good advice on here already and I am sure your heart and head is all over the place, i definitely would recommend using the BHS service to talk to someone and help you come to terms with your grief.

You have my thoughts and prayers at this sad time. x
		
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I just wanted to add, my vet was absolutely amazing, so calm and dealt with the PTS so professionally. After the event was when the tears trickled, I have known her for sometime and she knew the struggles we were going through at the time with our toddler grandson fighting for his life on a ventilator at the time (and subsequently didn’t survive).  

It was a very different set of circumstances for me that time. Would I have expected it in different circumstances and from another vet, god no.

I would just like to say any vets on this thread/reading this thread. Please never give up, you are so valued and you have my utmost admiration For the job you do for us. x


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## Birker2020 (10 May 2021)

Ownedby4horses said:



			I would just like to say any vets on this thread/reading this thread. Please never give up, you are so valued and you have my utmost admiration For the job you do for us. x
		
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Here, here or hear, hear whichever is correct.


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## paddy555 (10 May 2021)

windand rain said:



			Having read this thread I am even more convinced I am better having mine shot by a recognised knackerman. Never had any of these issues the bang stays with you but the rest is far more efficient
I say this because I feel for the vet whose job is to save lives not take them the knackermans job is to quickly dispose of life so comes from a different perspective
		
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it is everyone''s personal choice as to how they would like to PTS but sometimes there is no choice it has to be the vet. For the last 3 of mine it was the vet. 
Each time the horse had colic. These were older horses where colic does happen. Unexpected, unplanned and we had no way of knowing. It came out of the blue. The last one I was tucking up in bed and just about to give his evening hay at 8.30 pm. By 10.30 the vet had PTS. He was in terrible distress. With these sort of incidents some recover and some don't. Often you don't know until the vet arrives and assesses which it is going to be. So you have a horse in agony a vet saying no way out and you would then have to ring the knackerman and, even if he is there and available to drop everything and come straight out, keep the horse in agony for another period of time. 

Planned PTS is different but emergencies are not. You have to do whatever is available and quickly. 

 I always use a vet. I have never had any problems with them failing to PTS efficiently. I have known cases personally where shooting didn't work as it should by a knackerman and it was not quick both for the horse and especially for the owner. 
The vet's job is certainly to save lives but IMHO to also end suffering as quickly as possible. If you have a dog in agony it would be the vet who dealt with it,, not the knackerman and whilst they would try to save it's life they would also have no choice but to take the life. I cannot see it is any different with horses. 

Someone will reply to this with their experiences of PTS by injection and what went wrong. There are always potential problems. It is a case of studying the choices and working out what you will do if you have to. 

that final para or indeed the  post is not aimed at you W & R it is just a comment to try and encourage any "Newbies" to this very sad fact of life to read what they can and be prepared. I hope none of this post sounds patronising. It is not meant to.


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## Spirit2021 (10 May 2021)

Birker2020 said:



			Is that directed at me?
		
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Nope it’s for the op


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## Orangehorse (10 May 2021)

The Jokers Girl said:



			Thank you for posting this.  As hard as it was for me to click on it, knowing it's that quick and painless and peaceful will be a massive comfort When the time comes for mine.  
I'm crying now thinking about it  😢
		
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I hadn't seen a PTS by injection, so thanks for that.  The two I had were shot and it was instantaneous, they just dropped, with their head in a bucket of food, didn't feel a thing (Sugar did react to the injection slightly).  But they were ponies, and I don't know for my large horse ..................  it is a hard choice to make.


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## brighteyes (10 May 2021)

It seems the overwhelming majority are in deep gratitude to their vets. I most certainly am and ensure my thanks are given on the day and again when I call to settle up. 

You need to separate the professional from the cost, too. It's almost shameful how little they actually earn from any service they provide but especially the trauma of attending to PTS.

In the replies, as has been pointed out by the vets and their connections, having their skills and manner discussed or at the best almost overlooked is something of an insult. I hope I am right in saying where it isn't mentioned it is an unintentional oversight.


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## poiuytrewq (10 May 2021)

Birker2020 said:



			Here, here or hear, hear whichever is correct.
		
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🤷‍♀️ Which is correct?!


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## Meowy Catkin (10 May 2021)

poiuytrewq said:



			🤷‍♀️ Which is correct?!
		
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'Hear, Hear!' is correct.


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## chaps89 (10 May 2021)

windand rain said:



			Having read this thread I am even more convinced I am better having mine shot by a recognised knackerman. Never had any of these issues the bang stays with you but the rest is far more efficient
I say this because I feel for the vet whose job is to save lives not take them the knackermans job is to quickly dispose of life so comes from a different perspective
		
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Mine was pts by the knackerman last week. 
It was expected and so I was able to arrange it and inform my vet beforehand too. 
My vet knew the pony very very well, and part of my decision to use a knackerman not my vet in this instance is how hard it is for the vet, especially when it's a horse they've known a very long time, I didn't feel I could or wanted to ask her to do it. Thankfully i have a preference to gun rather than injection anyway. 
The knackerman had no emotional involvement and that's their job through and through. Knackerman was exceptionally professional and kind but not over familiar which was absolutely what I needed. The process went smoothly and with dignity and I was glad it was done that way.
I had a lovely card in the post from the vets, which was personal and touching, and I shall be dropping some flowers and chocolates off in due course to say thankyou to them for everything they did over the years.

I do however completely agree with the subsequent poster who also mentioned plans changing if it's an emergency or using a vet if they're already there. In that instance I absolutely concur that whatever is best for the horse be done and if that's injection because the relevant professional is there or can get there first then so be it. The important thing I think is that as owners we think about and prepare ourselves for this in advance.

OP, I'm not sure of the reasons behind the issues you seem to have, it sounds like the actual Pts went as well as it could all things considered, which is most important. Hopefully other posters have explained why the vet may have seemed distant. 
Maybe although you were with them for 14 years, they didn't know you well if they've only been out for routine stuff and so don't really know you that well? 
The paperwork sounds unfortunate but they really shouldn't need to explain internal lingo/scribblings to you.
When my vet saw my horse last summer, even though she had seen her many many times previously, she did a thorough examination of passport against horse, checked markings, microchip and that the horse was signed out of the food chain. The visit was for something entirely unrelated, but it was obviously something that was required, she said regulations and checks were getting tighter and they had to check all paperwork was present and correct. Maybe that's what your vet was doing (and assumed you would want your horse signed out of the food chain) or maybe they were administering drugs in which instance they would have to sign them out regardless. 
We don't really have enough info here on the situation that led to pts etc to be able to offer you any more specific or useful advice. But hopefully the range of replies from lots of different view points helps. 
If you're struggling please don't feel afraid or embarrassed about seeking professional help (counselling or the like) I hope you can take comfort in knowing your horse had a peaceful end and find some closure.


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## Pearlsasinger (10 May 2021)

Orangehorse said:



			I hadn't seen a PTS by injection, so thanks for that.  The two I had were shot and it was instantaneous, they just dropped, with their head in a bucket of food, didn't feel a thing (Sugar did react to the injection slightly).  But they were ponies, and I don't know for my large horse ..................  it is a hard choice to make.
		
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Your large horse will also just drop with his head in a bucket.  I have had Clydesdales, a Shire and a Westphalian Kaltblut (Draft) shot and they all just dropped.  The ID was an emergency pts by injection, while the vet was on the premises.  She stood up on her back legs, which was horrific and could have been very dangerous.


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## poiuytrewq (10 May 2021)

Meowy Catkin said:



			'Hear, Hear!' is correct. 

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Thank you! Not one I’d considered before and would have taken either to be right without a second thought.


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## Meowy Catkin (10 May 2021)

It's apparently short for 'hear them, hear them'* when someone has said something that you agree with and you want others to listen to what they are saying.

* I guess that him, her or them would work.


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## ycbm (10 May 2021)

Orangehorse said:



			I hadn't seen a PTS by injection, so thanks for that.  The two I had were shot and it was instantaneous, they just dropped, with their head in a bucket of food, didn't feel a thing (Sugar did react to the injection slightly).  But they were ponies, and I don't know for my large horse ..................  it is a hard choice to make.
		
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Spoiler:  euthanasia by gun



Well,  to be brutally honest,  they crash.  600kg hitting the floor goes with a whump. It's violent for the handler,  big bang,  big whump, but instant for the horse. I had a big horse shot last year and he made it very difficult.  He would not hold his head still for the gun.  Luckily,  I had sedative to hand,  but it was a fluke and the wait while it took hold was absolutely awful.   I have made a note to myself to have a tube available the next time, but for the first time ever I question whether I will use a vet and lethal injection next time.


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## paddy555 (10 May 2021)

ycbm said:





Spoiler:  euthanasia by gun



Well,  to be brutally honest,  they crash.  600kg hitting the floor goes with a whump. It's violent for the handler,  big bang,  big whump, but instant for the horse. I had a big horse shot last year and he made it very difficult.  He would not hold his head still for the gun.  Luckily,  I had sedative to hand,  but it was a fluke and the wait while it took hold was absolutely awful.   I have made a note to myself to have a tube available the next time, but for the first time ever I question whether I will use a vet and lethal injection next time.




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oh dear, couldn't really like that but it was probably a good idea to post it so people learn. I'm sorry it was so rotten.


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## Errin Paddywack (10 May 2021)

Having had horses since 1969, often multiple at a time and keeping many of them to the end I have unfortunately had to have many put down.  In that time only three have gone by injection, a foal with a broken leg, a brood mare after a disastrous foaling and a colic.  All the others were planned and shot either by the local hunt or a brilliant knacker.  I have had one die from an enlarged heart and one found dead in the field.  Both were removed by the hunt.  My preference is shooting but I have no problem with injection.  I stay with them for injection but hand over to the knacker and walk away.  He can deal with them more effectively without an owner getting in his way.  My husband watched him shoot a little mare who had gone blind suddenly.  She was panicky and couldn't stand still.  My husband said he was very patient waiting till exactly the right moment.  He was very impressed with him.
Our current three will not have any invasive surgery or loads of money spent on them.  My sister and I are very much on the same page in this respect thankfully.  They will get the best care we can give them while we have them.


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## palo1 (10 May 2021)

Such a sad and difficult subject @mary pearce and I am sorry for your loss and the difficult time you are having.  I too had a 'difficult' experience with a vet during a PTS.  It was 'planned' in as much as I spoke to the vet early that morning to say that due to the on-going difficulties my horse was having, the prognosis re his injury and his age that I did not want to proceed with treatment & rehab.  The vet agreed that this was the best way forward and that he would come later that day to euthanise my horse.  He arranged for me to collect some sedative from a large local race yard and specified a time I was to give that.  Going to collect the sedative was an awful job tbh but my OH was with me.  The sedative was given to the horse who I had spent all day with.  The vet was 3 hours late with no explanation, nor communication.  He was clearly unhappy with me wanting to attend the PTS but the horse's vet notes from the practice were clear that I should be required to handle him due to his rather extreme behavioural issues.  This was never questioned previously nor discussed in relation to euthanasia even though injection was not safe.   There was clearly not much option.  I told the vet that I would hold the lead-rope, standing in front but to one side.  The vet questioned me twice as to whether this was ok; it was extremely difficult for me but eventually with an increasingly restless horse, the vet shot him.  I dropped the rope, the horse dropped immediately and I walked away. My OH thankfully dealt with the body and disposal.  The vet walked away, got in his car and drove off without a word whilst I sobbed standing next to my vehicle.  That horse was a very much loved friend who had been with me, and with that veterinary practice a very long time.  

The whole experience was dire tbh - a combination of difficult circumstances and probably some issues that the vet had but never actually discussed with me (his late arrival, lack of a second sedative or communication about his late arrival to enable me to delay sedation) including the difficult and potentially dangerous situation of me being so close to a horse being euthanased with a captive bolt.  This was an 'excellent' vet  - hugely experienced, pragmatic and very well respected but really at that time, no compassion was shown and I was in a really bad way subsequently.  I don't know why it had to be like that - it was very confusing tbh.  It took a very long time to get over the experience but for me it was easier to simply change vet practices as a response - I chose not to ask questions about the sequence of events or conduct of the vet and perhaps that might be possible for you too. 

I still feel huge sadness about the way that I was dealt with on such a difficult day but my horse was euthanased quickly and successfully even though it was a very difficult time for me.  The horse being dealt with was thankfully the most important thing and I am thankful that his passing was 'managed' well in the end.  I would never, ever want a referral to that vet /practice again (and they are regularly recommended and viewed as an excellent practice) but walking away was definately better for me to draw a line under that 'relationship'.  Hard though these words seem if I were you I would pay my bill and leave your practice for a different one.  That may help you to move on from such a sad and upsetting time. I am sorry if my experience or words are not helpful for you.


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## AdorableAlice (10 May 2021)

Let’s be mindful of the fact that large animal vets have one of the highest suicide rates.  A few of us on here will know our vets as dear friends as well as outstanding professionals, I certainly do.  The pressures vets work under are immense.


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## Pearlsasinger (10 May 2021)

I would never want a vet to shoot a horse, they do it so rarely.  Far better, imho to use a knacker/hunt who is used to doing the job regularly.  I don't think it would be fair to the owner, horse or vet.


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## Auslander (10 May 2021)

AdorableAlice said:



			Let’s be mindful of the fact that large animal vets have one of the highest suicide rates.  A few of us on here will know our vets as dear friends as well as outstanding professionals, I certainly do.  The pressures vets work under are immense.
		
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This, 100%.
My vet is calm, quiet and empathetic when she comes to euthanise a horse here. She blocks out a big chunk of her diary, so she doesn't have to rush off afterwards, and she deals with the horse and the owner with kindness and respect. 
When I had Ted PTS, she sat on the ground next to him and stroked his neck after he'd gone. It was really touching, and I'll never forget it.


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## palo1 (10 May 2021)

Pearlsasinger said:



			I would never want a vet to shoot a horse, they do it so rarely.  Far better, imho to use a knacker/hunt who is used to doing the job regularly.  I don't think it would be fair to the owner, horse or vet.
		
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I do agree with this and I also recognise the awfully difficult job that vets have - both in managing their daily crisis cases as well as the sad and difficult job of euthanasing animals under their care.  I have huge respect for vets and have been thankful for their wisdom for many years but there are many reasons too why our experience of a veterinary situation can be difficult.  I don't think it is necessarily anyone's fault - more often it is situational.  I could not, in the end, reconcile my experience so I chose to use a different vet - I certainly wouldn't have wanted to complain about my specific experience and I am glad I could recognise that it probably wasn't an easy situation for my vet in the instance I have described.  I just never wanted to see him again and that was fairly easily managed without personal feelings or professional difficulties with the situation having to be expressed or exposed.


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## ycbm (10 May 2021)

Pearlsasinger said:



			I would never want a vet to shoot a horse, they do it so rarely.  Far better, imho to use a knacker/hunt who is used to doing the job regularly.  I don't think it would be fair to the owner, horse or vet.
		
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I don't know of any vets who would.  Do any of them still have a gun?


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## criso (11 May 2021)

ycbm said:



			I don't know of any vets who would.  Do any of them still have a gun?
		
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Mine offered when I said that was what I wanted to do, he is quite experienced. I don't know if he carries it with him, probably not.

However I chose not to because I didn't want the stress of having to coordinate 2 people,  I preferred to have someone do it and take the body away. When I explained vet went over to Frankie to say goodbye, they had been meeting frequently for a long time.


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## Tiddlypom (11 May 2021)

ycbm said:



			I don't know of any vets who would.  Do any of them still have a gun?
		
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My vets used to use the gun, but none of them do now. Even the older vets who formerly used the gun have switched to injection only now.

They always heavily sedate the horse first, which should be mandatory on welfare grounds, but bizarrely and sadly it doesn't seem to be.


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## palo1 (11 May 2021)

I think it is very rare for vets to use a captive bolt these days which makes choosing a method of euthanasia slightly more tricky for some people.  If they have a good existing relationship with a vet then they are pretty much limited to lethal injection as it is more difficult to engage with a complete stranger for the task of PTS I think even if a gun is the preferred option.


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## ycbm (11 May 2021)

Tiddlypom said:



			They always heavily sedate the horse first, which should be mandatory on welfare grounds, but bizarrely and sadly it doesn't seem to be.
		
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I'm not sure I understand what you're saying here TP?  Why do you think it's necessary to sedate horses on welfare grounds to shoot them? 
.


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## scats (11 May 2021)

I’ve had 5 of my own put to sleep and been there for countless others.
All my own have had the injection and the vets have been nothing but compassionate and caring.  They explained everything they are going to do and treated the horse they were dealing with with tremendous kindness.

The vet who put Diva to sleep knelt down and kissed her afterwards, then gave me the biggest hug.  I’m not really a hugger, but it was a lovely thought and I accepted and appreciated that act of comfort.
She had two students with her who had come to watch (absolutely fine by me, the next generation of vets need to learn) and one got very upset and had to sit down for a while.


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## ester (11 May 2021)

Our vet still had a gun, there was no way the horse could wait for the knackerwoman to do it. Vet very experienced and happy to do so so not sure why that wasn't fair on the horse, vet or owner. Vet's preference, owner's preference and a horse out of pain ASAP.

Given that our main vet retired last year I wasn't sure if any of the others could as I know fewer do now.


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## ycbm (11 May 2021)

You wouldn't wait for a knacker if the vet doesn't have a gun and the need is immediate,  though,  would you (one)  Ester?  They would just do the injection, wouldn't they?

I wouldn't expect any vet now to go to the bother of gun licensing, safe gun storage,  and the dangers of gun owning when they have the drugs available to do it. 
.


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## ester (11 May 2021)

No, not sure how I suggested that would be the case?

I was more replying to 'I'd only have a knacker shoot a horse not a vet' and letting you know that our vets still shoot and are happy to do so, though I was surprised they still did as you queried whether vets still did.


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## paddy555 (11 May 2021)

in an emergency we have around 6 horse vets who come out. There is no choice, it is just the first and nearest one that can be sent. I guess vets must carry sufficient drugs in their cars at all times to PTS a horse in an emergency. I cannot see that 6 vets would carry  guns in their cars at all times.


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## ester (11 May 2021)

I'm not sure anyone else in the practice can (3 vet practice) and she possibly doesn't have it with her all the time but if you're emergency out of hours on call heading to a colic you probably chuck it in the truck.

I'm a bit confused as it seems like I might have said something about preferences in an emergency- I maybe didn't word it well? if there isn't a choice it's not a decision is it you just PTS how the vet can but I have no issue with a vet shooting if they don't.


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## Pearlsasinger (11 May 2021)

ycbm said:



			I don't know of any vets who would.  Do any of them still have a gun?
		
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Not that I know of.  I think those who did have probably retired now.  Our 1st horse had a field accident, young vet attended wasn't certain that he had broken his spine, thought it could be bruising, wanted to give him time to recover.  A few hours later, the decision was made to pts.  The Farmer whose land he was on arranged for the knackerman to come out, even then 40 yrs ago, the vet wasn't asked to shoot the horse.  Mind you that might have been the farmer's sensibilities, I suppose.  The vet was a young woman and farmer had daughters around our age..

Much more recently a horse was severely injured by a car on a local road, around midnight.  After some non-productive phone calls, she was shot by the local terrier man who was the nearest person who was licensed to do the job.  No-one could find a vet who could get there.


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## paddy555 (11 May 2021)

ester said:



			I'm not sure anyone else in the practice can (3 vet practice) and she possibly doesn't have it with her all the time but if you're emergency out of hours on call heading to a colic you probably chuck it in the truck.

I'm a bit confused as it seems like I might have said something about preferences in an emergency- I maybe didn't word it well? if there isn't a choice it's not a decision is it you just PTS how the vet can but I have no issue with a vet shooting if they don't.
		
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I didn't take it about preferences I was just wondering about practicalities.   Leaving on an out of hours to colic is pretty obvious but if you are on your normal day of vaccinations and abscesses and get called away to PTS an emergency it may not be practical. 

I have no issue with a vet shooting if that is the way they personally wish to PTS and think they are better at it than injecting. In theory I would always go with how that particular vet wished to do it. Efficiency not method,


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## Tiddlypom (11 May 2021)

ycbm said:



			I'm not sure I understand what you're saying here TP?  Why do you think it's necessary to sedate horses on welfare grounds to shoot them?
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Both the vets at my equine practice and the neighbouring one, when they used to use the gun, would sedate the horses before shooting them. 

Belt and braces, gold standard if you like, in case the horse threw its head around at the last minute.


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## criso (11 May 2021)

Tiddlypom said:



			Both the vets at my equine practice and the neighbouring one, when they used to use the gun, would sedate the horses before shooting them.

Belt and braces, gold standard if you like, in case the horse threw its head around at the last minute.
		
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While I see that, my choice to go with shooting was knowing my horse and how much he hated and fought sedation.  I didn't want his last moments to be unpleasant.


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## Pearlsasinger (11 May 2021)

Tiddlypom said:



			Both the vets at my equine practice and the neighbouring one, when they used to use the gun, would sedate the horses before shooting them.

Belt and braces, gold standard if you like, in case the horse threw its head around at the last minute.
		
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Yet some people choose to have their horse shot because they are needle phobic.  Some horses hate the feeling of sedation and will fight it.  Ours always go with their head in a bucket of feed, that tends to keep their heads still.


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## Roasted Chestnuts (11 May 2021)

When my lad was PTS I had to sign a form and have the passport checked for the food chain part being signed.

I was then asked again for permission which I gave and then he was sedated and the cannula put in. He was given another round of sedation then led out the stable to the area for him to lie down. He was cuddled and given the final dose after which the vet took the lead rope. He lay down then the vet let me cuddle him and he went.

At no point despite how distraught I was at having to our my soul horse of 18yrs down did I think anything the vet did paperwork wise or action wise was inappropriate. Yes signing stuff could be classed as distasteful but at the end of the day my boy was elderly and now in pain and needed his long sleep so popping my name and signature in a bit of paper was the least of my concerns that day. I was also sent a standard bill requesting it be paid in the usual time within the week of the PTS,  I ignored that as it was a standard bill format. It was paid by my mother from my account the next day anyway so the bill was cleared before I got it in the post. I still have it along with everything else including some of his teeth and whole tail. 

Maybe your mannerism on that day contributed to how this all went down for you, considering how you have been in this thread it wouldn’t be a far stretch. My vets sent me a lovely card with all the vets and nurses signatures on it which I have treasured and have on my mantelpiece today and he was out down 2.5yrs ago now. Anyone else I know their vets have been respectful and lovely. They hate putting animals down as well and it’s the main reason I couldn’t be a vet TBF.

Yes you are hurting, we all do after we have to make that decision and then live with it after but going after your vet for it isn’t in good taste nor will it change anything for you.


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## The Fuzzy Furry (11 May 2021)

Just a small aside, if anyone here ever wants to talk though choices or anything to do with pts, drop me a message and I'll try to help. 
Over the years I've said goodbye to a number of mine, and up till 2 years ago I was a BHS friend at the end, so again have been out to quite a number of other people. 
It's never an easy decision to elect to pts, unfortunately in some situations its taken away from you as pts is the only way out from a fatal injury, trauma or sudden colic etc. 
It's hard, but part of ownership, talking to someone can sometimes help, some prefer not to x


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## paddy555 (11 May 2021)

ycbm said:



			I'm not sure I understand what you're saying here TP?  Why do you think it's necessary to sedate horses on welfare grounds to shoot them?
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I'm a bit lost. Because of your earlier post and experience?


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## hopscotch bandit (11 May 2021)

Tiddlypom said:



			Both the vets at my equine practice and the neighbouring one, when they used to use the gun, would sedate the horses before shooting them.

Belt and braces, gold standard if you like, in case the horse threw its head around at the last minute.
		
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Yep having had my youngster shot twice (i was in hearing distance but not sight of horse thank God) I strongly believe this to be best.


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## hopscotch bandit (11 May 2021)

paddy555 said:



			I guess vets must carry sufficient drugs in their cars at all times to PTS a horse in an emergency. I cannot see that 6 vets would carry  guns in their cars at all times.
		
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But they are captive bolt and not actual firearms that they use aren't they? So maybe this is different, I'm not sure? Wouldn't they need a licence for firearms?


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## windand rain (11 May 2021)

I would prefer them shot but obviously if a vet was there you wouldn't wait for the knackerman but given an accident or a severe colic then the knackerman would be called as in most cases he can be there at the same speed as a vet
My vet when he used a gun used a pistol not captive bolt. so did need a gun license.
Our local knackerman has been shooting horses since he was 13 he is in his 60s he proudly told me in all that time he has only ever had to shoot 3 twice. He is the best horseman I have ever known he even managed to get the head shy horse to lower his head in his arms while he was talking to him  and stroking his face it was wonderful to see how caring he was


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## YorksG (11 May 2021)

Our knacker woman uses a free bullet, not a captive bolt. My understanding is that captive not guns are not much in use any more. 
The only time we've had one be difficult at the end was the previous appy and she settled with me holding her head,  the only one I've actually been next to when shot,  out of a fair few.


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## hopscotch bandit (11 May 2021)

One of the more well known Equune Hospitals in the Midlands back in 1999 had a contraption like a bicycle pump or that was the way it was described to me by the groom. She said it was held with one hand and the palm of the other slammed against the end firing into the head. She said they used it a lot on racecourses - I think this place attended race meetings quite a lot.

Not long after Mum called me to say the hospital wanted me to ring them. I made the call and they told me my horse hadn't responded and needed to be pts. I can remember being more upset about the method than the horse, although i was in deep shock at the time but managed to blurt out that I didn't want that contraption anywhere near my horse and I wanted lethal injection. I was over 60 miles away but to the best of my knowledge Biggles did go with a needle in the end.

P.s I am on my phone as no internet connection at work arrggh so another username


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## Tiddlypom (11 May 2021)

Pearlsasinger said:



			Yet some people choose to have their horse shot because they are needle phobic.  Some horses hate the feeling of sedation and will fight it.  Ours always go with their head in a bucket of feed, that tends to keep their heads still.
		
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criso said:



			While I see that, my choice to go with shooting was knowing my horse and how much he hated and fought sedation.  I didn't want his last moments to be unpleasant.
		
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In that case, I'm sure that the vet would have been open to discussion and would have omitted the sedation for a needle shy horse.

It worked very well for my horses that went by the sedation/shooting route. They weren't needle shy.


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## criso (11 May 2021)

Tiddlypom said:



			In that case, I'm sure that the vet would have been open to discussion and would have omitted the sedation for a needle shy horse.

It worked very well for my horses that went by the sedation/shooting route. They weren't needle shy.
		
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Yes, as I said I discussed the method with my vet and why I was opting to shoot and he offered but it was easier to get one person to do everything.


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## Michen (11 May 2021)

Yep my vet still has a gun and it’s his preferred method. 

I wouldn’t sedate either, I’d rather they went with their head in a bucket rather than an injection being the last thing they properly have.


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## ycbm (11 May 2021)

hopscotch bandit said:



			But they are captive bolt and not actual firearms that they use aren't they? So maybe this is different, I'm not sure? Wouldn't they need a licence for firearms?
		
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Most use firearms now,  not captive bolt guns.  Mine uses a pistol. 
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## ycbm (11 May 2021)

paddy555 said:



			I'm a bit lost. Because of your earlier post and experience?
		
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There was no welfare issue (except for me, having to wait being emotionally difficult).  I sedated the only headshy horse I've ever had shot.  All the rest I've been with,  and there are many,  were clean shot without having needles poked in them by a vet.

There is no welfare issue when the shooting is done by someone experienced with horses.
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## minesadouble (11 May 2021)

Pearlsasinger said:



			I would never want a vet to shoot a horse, they do it so rarely.  Far better, imho to use a knacker/hunt who is used to doing the job regularly.  I don't think it would be fair to the owner, horse or vet.
		
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At my equine Veterinary practice none of the younger Vets have a gun licence. I've used both methods, depending on the situation and the horse in question. Vet for injection and Knacker man for shooting. I have no issue with either method.


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## Amymay (11 May 2021)

Tiddlypom said:



			Both the vets at my equine practice and the neighbouring one, when they used to use the gun, would sedate the horses before shooting them.

Belt and braces, gold standard if you like, in case the horse threw its head around at the last minute.
		
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It was always the same whenever our vets used a gun.  Absolutely done on safety grounds for the vet.  Understandably.


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## teddypops (11 May 2021)

paddy555 said:



			in an emergency we have around 6 horse vets who come out. There is no choice, it is just the first and nearest one that can be sent. I guess vets must carry sufficient drugs in their cars at all times to PTS a horse in an emergency. I cannot see that 6 vets would carry  guns in their cars at all times.
		
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I worked at a vets where a few of the older vets would use a gun, but that gun stayed at the practice locked in a safe. If a client wanted their horse shot, they had to make vet aware so correct vet and gun could be sent to the call out.


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## windand rain (11 May 2021)

Our vet told me to call the knackerman to a friends horse as that was his preferred method for his own horses. It was elective so time wasn't relevant but it was good of him to put his perceived welfare of the horse first.


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## Cragrat (11 May 2021)

One of our old mares fought colic thorugh the night - many vet visits, each time leaving us with a bit of hope that she'd pull through, but by the early hours it was clear she had gone downhill, so the decison to PTS was made (in mine and vets opinion, never a suitable candidate for an op).  I said I would prefer her to be shot (having been present for injection and gun a few times, the gun is my preference). The vet repiled that it would have to be the gun anyway, as she was 'too toxic' for the injection to work porperly. 

So if vets aren't carrying guns, what would they do in this situation?


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## windand rain (11 May 2021)

Leave you with a sick animal to go to the surgery to get it but most vets will have one or know someone who has


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## chaps89 (11 May 2021)

I presume the vet would have contacts. Failing that, knackerman/fallen stock man/the hunts, just ring round, I'm sure they'll all be used to emergency calls?!

Both of the horses I've had pts were done at 6.30am on a bank holiday Monday, planned. 
When the mare was pts last week, the knackerman  had been out already that morning to remove a horse who had passed away overnight, so that must have been somewhere around 5am so I'm guessing that unsocial hours/emergency call outs form part of their job


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## criso (11 May 2021)

The fallen stock company local me to have a 24 hours service with someone on call at all times so in a broken leg type emergency would be as quick if not quicker than the vet depending on who is on another call.


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## Mrs. Jingle (11 May 2021)

Warning not very nice memory on PTS!

Can someone tell me if I am correctly remembering a childhood incident of horse being shot by the huntsman. Not very nice and sort of hope it is a false memory.  I have vague memories of an injured horse being shot (no idea if captive bolt or actual firearm.) and the poor horse did not die immediately and the huntsman/knackerman had a long metal instrument that they had to put in the hole made by the gun and wriggle it around, presumably in the brain area, until the horse actually succumbed totally?

Sorry if that is difficult for some to read but it has always been a vague memory in the back of my mind, I must have been very young, and it might explain why I am so anti the gun method of euthanasia.


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## ycbm (11 May 2021)

Mrs Jingle said:



			Warning not very nice memory on PTS!

Can someone tell me if I am correctly remembering a childhood incident of horse being shot by the huntsman. Not very nice and sort of hope it is a false memory.  I have vague memories of an injured horse being shot (no idea if captive bolt or actual firearm.) and the poor horse did not die immediately and the huntsman/knackerman had a long metal instrument that they had to put in the hole made by the gun and wriggle it around, presumably in the brain area, until the horse actually succumbed totally?

Sorry if that is difficult for some to read but it has always been a vague memory in the back of my mind, I must have been very young, and it might explain why I am so anti the gun method of euthanasia.
		
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That is the normal way to shoot a horse with a captive bolt. It is not aware of the rodding to destroy the brain stem.  
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## Mrs. Jingle (11 May 2021)

ycbm said:



			That is the normal way to shoot a horse with a captive bolt. It is not aware of the rodding to destroy the brain stem. 
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Oh yes I am not questioning the actual shooting - it was the memory of the long piece of metal being wriggled around in the hole.  Is that common and a usual thing to do, why would they need to do that, do you know?  The only horse I had shot certainly didn't have that done?


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## Tiddlypom (11 May 2021)

That is called pithing, Mrs J. It is normal procedure following captive bolt pts.


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## Mrs. Jingle (11 May 2021)

Tiddlypom said:



			That is called pithing, Mrs J. It is normal procedure following captive bolt pts.
		
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Well I'll be damned - over 70 yeas around horses and I never knew that. Just shows we can still learn something new everyday! How odd then when I had the huntsman do one of mine that he didnt do this?


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## chaps89 (11 May 2021)

It's for this reason I never stay and watch - I actually don't know/haven't witnessed the full pts of a horse. I had them ready, had a handful of treats, passed the rope and treats over and retreated to my car whilst it's done. Went back and said a final goodbye when it was done and horses head was covered, pre loading onto the trailer.
In fairness last week the chap said that was always his preference and that he rarely found the presence of an owner/helper actually helpful/necessary. (I know that doing that is more for the owners sake than to help to be fair)
I was so glad I did that for my first horse, I had so many subsequent nightmares about him being alive but in horrific circumstances and I was helpless to do anything about it after he was pts, having seen his body meant I was able to be rational about it when I woke up.


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## Pearlsasinger (11 May 2021)

Mrs Jingle said:



			Well I'll be damned - over 70 yeas around horses and I never knew that. Just shows we can still learn something new everyday! How odd then when I had the huntsman do one of mine that he didnt do this?
		
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He probably used a bullet, rather than a captive bolt.


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## laura_nash (11 May 2021)

chaps89 said:



			Mine was pts by the knackerman last week.
It was expected and so I was able to arrange it and inform my vet beforehand too.
My vet knew the pony very very well, and part of my decision to use a knackerman not my vet in this instance is how hard it is for the vet, especially when it's a horse they've known a very long time, I didn't feel I could or wanted to ask.
		
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Sorry about your pony.

I did similar when I had to have our pony PTS last year.  I deliberately used the farm vet we use for the cows rather than the pet and equine vet that had been treating him for years.  I thought it would be easier for the vet (who'd never seen him before), easier for me not having to deal with the vets emotions as I prefer to shut down and get on with it, plus I suspected she was more experienced with PTS of large animals.  I also worried having the usual vet there would tempt me to change my mind, though the decision had been made months before if he had another severe attack.  It worked very well for me, the process went as well as it could do in the circumstances and the vet was very professional and efficient which was exactly what I wanted.


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## Mrs. Jingle (12 May 2021)

Pearlsasinger said:



			He probably used a bullet, rather than a captive bolt.
		
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I think he must have done after reading this,  I didn't actually watch - I stood nearby with a friend and turned my head away and just heard the bang, I had assumed the bolt but perhaps it wasn't?  Either way, never again unless absolutely necessary to use that method.


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## southerncomfort (12 May 2021)

I do hope poor Mary has stopped reading.

  It's an interesting discussion, but I think the poor OP was already feeling very traumatised.


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## hopscotch bandit (12 May 2021)

Mrs Jingle said:



			Oh yes I am not questioning the actual shooting - it was the memory of the long piece of metal being wriggled around in the hole.  Is that common and a usual thing to do, why would they need to do that, do you know?  The only horse I had shot certainly didn't have that done?
		
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When we went on a school outing many years ago part of the outing was to a dairy farm. I remember the curious 12 year olds around me asking about 'killing animals' and distictly remember the farmer telling us about that procedure (its called pithing). Wasn't aware it was done on horses though.

It really disturbed me, more than the farmers glee at trying to shock a bunch of 12yr olds by going into great details about it.


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## paddi22 (12 May 2021)

southerncomfort said:



			I do hope poor Mary has stopped reading.

  It's an interesting discussion, but I think the poor OP was already feeling very traumatised.
		
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yeah she sounded totally in shock, an awful situation. I couldn't even make sense of the random paperwork issues, I'd say her vets were equally confused.


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## hopscotch bandit (12 May 2021)

southerncomfort said:



			I do hope poor Mary has stopped reading.

  It's an interesting discussion, but I think the poor OP was already feeling very traumatised.
		
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I was just thinking that. Poor lady, she sounded very upset. My heart goes out to her.


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## windand rain (12 May 2021)

Very educational for all horse owners though. The most part it hasnt been littered with dreadful scenarios of either method and comes to everyone who owns a large animal for its lifetime


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## hopscotch bandit (12 May 2021)

chaps89 said:



			It's for this reason I never stay and watch - I actually don't know/haven't witnessed the full pts of a horse. I had them ready, had a handful of treats, passed the rope and treats over and retreated to my car whilst it's done. Went back and said a final goodbye when it was done and horses head was covered, pre loading onto the trailer.
In fairness last week the chap said that was always his preference and that he rarely found the presence of an owner/helper actually helpful/necessary. (I know that doing that is more for the owners sake than to help to be fair)
I was so glad I did that for my first horse, I had so many subsequent nightmares about him being alive but in horrific circumstances and I was helpless to do anything about it after he was pts, having seen his body meant I was able to be rational about it when I woke up.
		
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Agree about being able to see the body post agonal gasping though.


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## meleeka (12 May 2021)

hopscotch bandit said:



			Agree about being able to see the body post agonal gasping though.
		
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it’s funny how we are all different.  I definitely do not want to see the body.  I’ve always walked away as the injection went in and not looked back.  To me, once they are dead they aren’t ‘mine’ anymore and just a body.


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## MurphysMinder (12 May 2021)

southerncomfort said:



			I do hope poor Mary has stopped reading.

  It's an interesting discussion, but I think the poor OP was already feeling very traumatised.
		
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But at least it will hopefully help her see that her pony had a quick end which is surely the most important thing .


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## Elf On A Shelf (13 May 2021)

I personally would not choose the gun unless the horse was sedated first. We had one done at work and the horse moved it's head just as the trigger was pulled. The bolt took off the front of the eye ball and the horse took off. Caught him, blindfolded him with a towel and started again. To be fair the knackerman was mortified. He had never had that happen to him before.


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## Birker2020 (13 May 2021)

Elf On A Shelf said:



			I personally would not choose the gun unless the horse was sedated first. We had one done at work and the horse moved it's head just as the trigger was pulled. The bolt took off the front of the eye ball and the horse took off. Caught him, blindfolded him with a towel and started again. To be fair the knackerman was mortified. He had never had that happen to him before.
		
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Yes that sounds horrific.  I dread to think what actually happened to my horse when he was shot twice, the YO who had been holding Mikki was white as a sheet after and went in the house for a large Brandy, the vet lied and said that they shoot big horses twice as a matter of course.


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