# Bussard Control



## mtj (24 May 2012)

www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-18183204

Just heard this story on Radio 4 and I am appalled.

Are there any petitions I can sign against these measure?  Obviously I will write to my MP.

Just in case anyone is wondering, yes I do live in the countryside and yes I am aware of the harm caused by game birds to ground nesting species.

Cameron and co can all sod off if they are expecting my vote with this attitude.


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## Miss L Toe (24 May 2012)

err, the article concentrates on buzzards which are predating on tree roosting pheasants, not ground nesting game birds like grouse. Game birds are defined under the Wildlife and Countryside Act  as any pheasant, partridge, grouse (moor game), black (heath) game or ptarmigan.
Obviously most gamekeepers don't want ANY birds of prey near their pheasants, but due to current laws they are not allowed to shoot them, which is at least preferable to poisoning which is non species specific.
The UK Department for the Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Defra) is to research ways of keeping buzzards from targeting the game birds???. are    they going to train them to eat heather? 
Defra says it wants to maintain a "balance between captive and wild birds"???????? what does this mean, they want more buzzards kept in cages?

The RSPB said the idea of taking wild buzzards into captivity or destroying their nests was "totally unacceptable"............... I agree.

I am totally gobsmacked by DEFFRA wasting hundreds of thousands of taxpayers money on a flawed idea which is quite rightly, considered to be unacceptable by the experts in bird management and conservation.


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## mtj (24 May 2012)

With regards to ground nesting, I was referring to birds such as Skylarks. I understand pheasants are an issue with this species.


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## jrp204 (24 May 2012)

"--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
err, the article concentrates on buzzards which are predating on tree roosting pheasants, "

No, it is the buzzards targeting pheasant release pens, the pheasants are hatched and reared commercially the shoot usually buying them off heat putting them into pens where they are fed, when big enough the pen is opened up for the birds to free range, coming back to be fed. Obviously there is a massive food station for raptors, 100's of young pheasants.
Not sure i agree with the plan, i think the shoots should rear more pheasants to allow for slightly higher losses, raptors will only take so many and it will be over a fairly short time scale, until the birds are too big to be taken. Buzzards are highly territorial so nesting numbers within a certain area will be fairly static.


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## Miss L Toe (24 May 2012)

jrp204 said:



			"--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
err, the article concentrates on buzzards which are predating on tree roosting pheasants, "

No, it is the buzzards targeting pheasant release pens, the pheasants are hatched and reared commercially the shoot usually buying them off heat putting them into pens where they are fed, when big enough the pen is opened up for the birds to free range, coming back to be fed. Obviously there is a massive food station for raptors, 100's of young pheasants.
Not sure i agree with the plan, i think the shoots should rear more pheasants to allow for slightly higher losses, raptors will only take so many and it will be over a fairly short time scale, until the birds are too big to be taken. Buzzards are highly territorial so nesting numbers within a certain area will be fairly static.
		
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I agree about extra to allow for losses,  round here the pens are in trees so the buzzards can't fly in, but as you say there won't be all that many, not like seagulls on a landfill site.
I  am still unclear as to the "plan"..... walking round the countryside destroying nests [more new laws needed],  the other plan was to capture them to balance captive and wild populations


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## jrp204 (24 May 2012)

Miss L Toe said:



			I agree about extra to allow for losses,  round here the pens are in trees so the buzzards can't fly in, but as you say there won't be all that many, not like seagulls on a landfill site.
I  am still unclear as to the "plan"..... walking round the countryside destroying nests [more new laws needed],  the other plan was to capture them to balance captive and wild populations 

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Sorry, never heard of pens in trees, guess they learn to fly fairly quickly then! lol. Just have this vision of all these young pheasants dropping out of trees..........


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## Rowreach (24 May 2012)

If Mr Cameron is trying to make out he's not an upper class twit protecting the interests of his mates, he's failing epicly   What a stupid idea, not to mention currently illegal


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## Miss L Toe (24 May 2012)

jrp204 said:



			Sorry, never heard of pens in trees, guess they learn to fly fairly quickly then! lol. Just have this vision of all these young pheasants dropping out of trees..........
		
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Yes they move from the little covered coops in to the forest, the interim stage is more of an enclosed area with small feeders, once they are bigger they move in to the main forest which has feeding stations, again under cover of the trees, presumably to save them from buzzards.
Grey squirrels are rife.


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## EAST KENT (24 May 2012)

If we were allowed to deal with sparrow hawks too I`d be happy! I used to have a loft of white fan tail doves..until a bloody sparrow hawk pair wiped them out;the few survivors were so terrified they left to roost somewhere safer. Too many hawks are now around due to their complete protection,to the point of extreme nuisance. Many pigeon racing folk will attest to this,where their extremely valuable birds are just used as a feeding station,we need to be allowed to protect our birds.


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## Alec Swan (24 May 2012)

Dear Lord,  where to start?  There are so many factually incorrect statements as to make clear replies near impossible.

If the article offered by mtj is to be taken seriously,  and I'm sorry,  but some of the responses on here too,  then those statements offered as facts,  are so wrong as to be laughable.

I have to go out,  but will give this some thought,  later today.  The best way to deal with a serious tangle,  all so often,  is to chuck it out,  and start again.  Generally,  the unravelling process isn't worth the effort,  but we'll have a go!!

Alec.


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## Freddie19 (24 May 2012)

Alec Swan said:



			Dear Lord,  where to start?  There are so many factually incorrect statements as to make clear replies near impossible.

If the article offered by mtj is to be taken seriously,  and I'm sorry,  but some of the responses on here too,  then those statements offered as facts,  are so wrong as to be laughable.

I have to go out,  but will give this some thought,  later today.  The best way to deal with a serious tangle,  all so often,  is to chuck it out,  and start again.  Generally,  the unravelling process isn't worth the effort,  but we'll have a go!!

Alec.
		
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Now now Alec, please concentrate on your driving.  We wait with baited breath, for your answer to the incorrect statements.


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## Archangel (24 May 2012)

To quote DEFRA "We are looking at funding research to find ways of protecting these young birds"  
Err when they say protecting don't they mean "making sure they grow into big birds and then we can shoot them"

It is all relative surely, round here it is carnage on the roads when the young pheasants are released. I should think cars wipe out more than buzzards ever do.


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## Miss L Toe (24 May 2012)

EAST KENT said:



			If we were allowed to deal with sparrow hawks too I`d be happy! I used to have a loft of white fan tail doves..until a bloody sparrow hawk pair wiped them out;the few survivors were so terrified they left to roost somewhere safer. Too many hawks are now around due to their complete protection,to the point of extreme nuisance. Many pigeon racing folk will attest to this,where their extremely valuable birds are just used as a feeding station,we need to be allowed to protect our birds.
		
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Oh dear, my neighbour had these too, no longer, my fat cat took care of that. I think they were too well fed to leave the ground.


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## amandap (24 May 2012)

Oh yes, we must have plenty of pheasants... to shoot and bury some because there are too many to bloomin eat! 

Yes, I am a country person, my father was an avid shooter until his late middle age when he said to me... why did I did I enjoy that? 
I dined on pheasant every week in the season from as early as I can remember.

Of course there are loads of buzzards, there are loads of 'sitting ducks' for them as easy prey.

Round and round we go it seems.  I'm sure there wont be as many left again soon one way or another.


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## Pale Rider (25 May 2012)

Rowreach said:



			If Mr Cameron is trying to make out he's not an upper class twit protecting the interests of his mates, he's failing epicly   What a stupid idea, not to mention currently illegal 

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^^Fantastic.^^


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## eahotson (25 May 2012)

Rowreach said:



			If Mr Cameron is trying to make out he's not an upper class twit protecting the interests of his mates, he's failing epicly   What a stupid idea, not to mention currently illegal 

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Like!!!


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## Maesfen (25 May 2012)

We've got far too many buzzards around here and they need culling same as magpies and badgers, none of which have any predators.  People need to wake up and recognize the true natural facts that if something hasn't any predators that they will gradually be so strong as to wipe out it's natural diet.  Why haven't we any hedgehogs?  Because the bloody badgers eat them.

Knocking nests out will discourage them from that nesting place so will only drive them to other areas.


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## marmalade76 (25 May 2012)

Rowreach said:



			If Mr Cameron is trying to make out he's not an upper class twit protecting the interests of his mates, he's failing epicly   What a stupid idea, not to mention currently illegal 

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Agreed. Also agree that the roads account for far more phesant deaths, probably more than all preditors put together! Lets get rid of our native birds in favour of the non-native that's only going to be shot anyway! They want to do this and foxhunting is still illegal?? Unbelieveable.


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## Miss L Toe (25 May 2012)

I await the Swan's posting with great anticipation. 
I am not one for shooting, but tend to  support country pursuits in general, though as far as I can see, the guns round here are very poor sportsmen and not very sociable, also poor shots. More interested in telling all their pals about "Lunching with Lord Tiddleypush" than conservation and the environment.
I think that there will be as many buzzards as their country can support with their food prey, if that includes a pheasant or two, so be it, pheasant are a non native species, and need to be farmed, unlike the buzzards.
Magpies predate on young birds nests, badgers spread disease and have no natural predators, that is the reason they need to be culled imho.


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## Archangel (25 May 2012)

Miss L Toe said:



			I await the Swan's posting with great anticipation.
		
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Me too.  Come on Mr Swan. *drums fingers on desk*


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## suestowford (25 May 2012)

Maesfen said:



			We've got far too many buzzards around here and they need culling same as magpies and badgers, none of which have any predators.
		
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We don't have too many buzzards here - but the population rises and falls with the local rabbit population. So when there was an outbreak of myxi about ten years ago the buzzard numbers dropped dramatically. Nature does have ways of evening things out - I just wish she would sort out the magpies. They do need their numbers reducing IMO.


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## stencilface (25 May 2012)

marmalade76 said:



			Agreed. Also agree that the roads account for far more phesant deaths, probably more than all preditors put together! Lets get rid of our native birds in favour of the non-native that's only going to be shot anyway! They want to do this and foxhunting is still illegal?? Unbelieveable.
		
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This echoes my opinions completely.  I am aware we need money in the countryside to maintain jobs etc, but if buzzards are getting the  baby pheasant, then build better pens fgs!  They'll be protecting grey squirrels next...... 

We don't need natural predators in this country anymore for the top dogs, cars and us do enough of that.


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## Miss L Toe (25 May 2012)

RebelRebel said:



			To quote DEFRA "We are looking at funding research to find ways of protecting these young birds"  
Err when they say protecting don't they mean "making sure they grow into big birds and then we can shoot them"

It is all relative surely, round here it is carnage on the roads when the young pheasants are released. I should think cars wipe out more than buzzards ever do.
		
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Road kill supports carrion crows, and rats , I suppose.


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## marmalade76 (25 May 2012)

Miss L Toe said:



			Road kill supports carrion crows, and rats , I suppose.
		
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AFAIA buzzards eat carrion too.


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## Caol Ila (25 May 2012)

Lets just eliminate all native predators so greedy estates can make even more money off people who want to shoot grouse or pheasants.  

Oh, wait, they're doing that.  My OH lives in the Southern Uplands near the Buccleuch Estate and that's a completely managed ecosystem, all for the sake of grouse.  Anything -- raptors, stoats, foxes - that eats grouse is shot, trapped, poisoned, legality be damned.  You can see on the hills that it's a complete monoculture, and because predators that eat grouse also eat rabbits, the place is crawling with the bloody things.  Yet you hardly see a raptor in the area.  

If you go to places which are not managed in this way, where there is more balance in the ecosystem, there is far more diversity in terms of plant life as well as wildlife.


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## Pale Rider (25 May 2012)

I saw some old photographs of the Gamekeepers haul, when they used to hang the bodies on fences, apart from all the birds of prey, weasels, stoats and the rest were row upon row of red squirrel, heart breaking really.


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## amandap (25 May 2012)

Not that many years ago I walked into a dead crow hanging from a tree, then I saw rows of them...

Nature, left to itself will find a balance but humans interfering so much especially for so called sport will always lead to explosions of predators/raptors and humans will always want to eradicate them so they can carry on killing for fun. 

Anyway, what sport is it using a twelve bore.lol Only a blind numpty could miss when a bird is driven in front of you. 
Why don't they just have garden parties or country booze ups if they want entertainment?  Or go out and kill to eat to live?


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## competitiondiva (25 May 2012)

Maesfen said:



			We've got far too many buzzards around here and they need culling same as magpies and badgers, none of which have any predators.  People need to wake up and recognize the true natural facts that if something hasn't any predators that they will gradually be so strong as to wipe out it's natural diet.  Why haven't we any hedgehogs?  Because the bloody badgers eat them.

Knocking nests out will discourage them from that nesting place so will only drive them to other areas.
		
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Not sure where you live, no hedgehogs??!!! lol

Just to add though that the buzzard is not 100% predator, they are scavengers, they eat carion, grubs, and easy prey, so I tell you what, to stop or reduce the baby pheasants from being taken, don't make them easy prey for them!!

They are also often brought down and injured or killed by the common crow, so no they do not live without a natural predator, though the crow isn't killing/injuring to eat so not a predator in the true sense, they kill/injure to defend their own territory.


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## competitiondiva (25 May 2012)

Now this makes interesting reading:
http://www.snh.gov.uk/docs/A253112.pdf

'What do common buzzards eat?
The common buzzard has a wide-ranging diet, however it largely takes rabbits and
other small mammals though birds may also be an important prey item at some
nests. Carrion of dead animals may also form a significant part of the diet, with
invertebrates (particularly in the winter). The hunting behaviour of using perches
gives rise to the colloquial Scots name for the common buzzard of telegraph pole
eagle.
It has been stated that common buzzards can take significant numbers of game
birds, although a study designed to assess levels of game bird predation by raptors
in general were found to be on average of the order of 1-2%, and exceptionally 5%
(BASC). Predation of mammals of conservation concern (such as red squirrels)
varies between regions of Scotland, with very few taken in some areas and higher
numbers in others. Common buzzards pose no threats to domestic farm livestock.'


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## Miss L Toe (25 May 2012)

I am surprised at the lack of support on here for country pursuits, and rural employment, I think it indicates how far the average horse owner is removed from traditional agricultural practices, without which there would now be no bridleways, no drover routes, no copses, no grass drives, no hedges, nothing but boggy march and unimproved land which would not allow biodiversity or riding. A number of "country parks" are part of former estates.


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## lachlanandmarcus (25 May 2012)

If the OP was really committed to the protection of buzzards they might want to look up how to spell their name :-((((

Blanket protection of predator species which are in no way endangered does no species any favours. Limited targeted control whilst maintaining protection where they are not causing such a problem is not an unreasonable way to go IMO.


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## Orangehorse (25 May 2012)

I like to see the Buzzards flying around.  There don't seem to be so many as in previous years so either they have found a convenient game farm to sit by (I suspect this is the case, locally) or there is less food for them.

Buzzards will take hares as well, as witnessed by a local tractor driver.

PS - it is true that badgers kill hegehogs, or at least eat all the things that hedgehogs like, it even said this on the BBC!  When badger numbers get too high, hedgehog numbers go down.


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## Hairy Old Cob (25 May 2012)

Orangehorse said:



			I like to see the Buzzards flying around.  There don't seem to be so many as in previous years so either they have found a convenient game farm to sit by (I suspect this is the case, locally) or there is less food for them.

Buzzards will take hares as well, as witnessed by a local tractor driver.

PS - it is true that badgers kill hegehogs, or at least eat all the things that hedgehogs like, it even said this on the BBC!  When badger numbers get too high, hedgehog numbers go down.
		
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Badger are total oppurtunists they will take anthing they can get hold of Lambs chickens Hedgehogs anything, they were not given their teeth and Jaws to eat Slugs and Worms as the bunny huggers would have you believe. The Fox gets Blamed for a LOT of the Badgers work.


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## Dobiegirl (25 May 2012)

We have a fair few Buzzards around here and its a lovely sight to see them catch the thermals. When I used to have my free range hens if a Buzzard came over they would squak and run for their houses. Never had a problem though unlike hot air balloons which really terrified them and put them off lay for a few days.

In winter when everyone is muck spreading the Buzzards gather and follow them out across the fields after worms I guess.

Badgers not only take hedgehogs but also have an impact on wild bees, digging up their nests for honey.


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## marmalade76 (25 May 2012)

Miss L Toe said:



			I am surprised at the lack of support on here for country pursuits, and rural employment, I think it indicates how far the average horse owner is removed from traditional agricultural practices, without which there would now be no bridleways, no drover routes, no copses, no grass drives, no hedges, nothing but boggy march and unimproved land which would not allow biodiversity or riding. A number of "country parks" are part of former estates.
		
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Shoots have nothing to do with agriculture, they are for stinking rich townies up from London for a weekend jolly 'cause it's the thing to do. Yes, I know a few farmers who shoot, but on their own land, not these big estate shoots. Here speaks the wife of a man who has worked in agriculture all his life and couldn't give a stuff if we never see a weekend shooter again!!


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## Tormenta (25 May 2012)

Maesfen said:



			We've got far too many buzzards around here and they need culling same as magpies and badgers, none of which have any predators.  People need to wake up and recognize the true natural facts that if something hasn't any predators that they will gradually be so strong as to wipe out it's natural diet.  Why haven't we any hedgehogs?  Because the bloody badgers eat them.

Knocking nests out will discourage them from that nesting place so will only drive them to other areas.
		
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And Jesus then wept  For Crying out loud, the reason we have imbalances in nature is because we constantly interfere.

Please research your facts. Birds of Preys have TERRITORIES, they can not outbalance each other!!!! I am sick of the absence of true facts on this forum regarding predators and their prey. Birds of Prey WILL actually catch and prey on each other, depending on size. 

Let's just wipe every predator out in the UK then you will all be happy campers with an abundance of prey animals to get rid of.

By the way, make sure you get rid of your pet cats at the same time. Hypocrites.


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## Miss L Toe (26 May 2012)

marmalade76 said:



			Shoots have nothing to do with agriculture, they are for stinking rich townies up from London for a weekend jolly 'cause it's the thing to do. Yes, I know a few farmers who shoot, but on their own land, not these big estate shoots. Here speaks the wife of a man who has worked in agriculture all his life and couldn't give a stuff if we never see a weekend shooter again!!
		
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Estates manage the land to promote wildlife and conservation, sowing crops to provide cover and feed, these increase biodiversity for insects and birds. Hedges are maintained [cf farmland these days], grass is not ploughed and re-seeded with rygrass monoculture, rapeseed [an abomination due to pollen], is limited, winter barley and wheat will not be doused in herbicides and pesticides if game are reared on the estate. Forest drives will be maintained, and the whole estate will be kept neat and tidy. 
The more work which can be generated in the countryside, the better as far as I am concerned: employment is available for the gamekeeper, his assistant, and all the beaters, drivers, catering staff, guest houses and the local pub will gain income. Children are born, keeping the local school in business.
The agricultural industry contributes only 1% to GDP, and one percent to the UK vote, but if the rich and powerful do a bit of shooting, they are worth pandering to!.... politically and economically.


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## mtj (26 May 2012)

First off apologies for my thread title. Bit tragic as i have an A level in English....

I just don't see how it would be managed ethically.

So, no I do not know how long a Buzzard will live in captivity.  Are they planning to trap them for several weeks and then re-release, or will shots soon has barracks of avaries for all the Buzzard they have captured over the years.  Who will monitor, and at what cost, these captive buzzards?  I do know that pheasants are not raised in tree houses!

I live in shooting country ie midst of a country estate (with Buzzards), but I do not recognise the description given by Miss L Toe.   Rape is flowering in abundance,  farmers are spraying and the village school (and community) still exists courtesy of a housing estate.

But have to say,  shooting is probably the only reason broadleaf woodland survives in my area.  Everything else is under the plough.


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## Alec Swan (26 May 2012)

I apologise for disappearing,  I had no choice.  Anyway,  I do have clear thoughts,  and they've grown and coalesced through the years.  These are only _my thoughts_,  and I'm not insisting that I'm right!!

Firstly,  I was previously employed for a good few years on commercially run shoots,  as a game keeper.  I still shoot,  but am starting to view the commercialisation of shooting with some distaste.  I try not to let that cloud my views though!!

Buzzards are curious birds,  in that they are neither hawks nor falcons nor eagles,  and were never of use to the falconer,  for the simple reason that they were too slow,  and too clumsy to actually catch anything.  

I was always under the impression that they relied upon carrion,  and as they were in such limited numbers,  they managed to eke out a living.  Now that there has been a population explosion,  I've had to do a bit of research,  and have discovered that the bulk of the buzzard's diet is made up from earth worms and beetles.  That seems to me to be a very strange diet for one of our largest birds of prey.   Those simple facts,  in themselves make them of little threat to the game keeper,  and I always found that during the months of September to November,  when pheasants would stray from home,  and I used to spend most of my waking hours,  "Dogging" birds home.  When the Buzzard was about,  straying across open fields was minimised.  He was something of an ally!!  

There's no doubt that buzzards will catch the odd early released poult against netting,  but the damage at the release pen is for from the disturbance factor,  than the birds which are killed,  and they can be a bloody nuisance.  Of greater nuisance factor,  are Tawny Owls and they can wreak costly havoc.  It's generally adult owls teaching their fledged youngsters how to kill,  and they can go on a spree.  I once had a release pen with 2500 birds in it,  and with nightly attacks,  within ten days,  I was feeding about 250 birds every morning.  The attacks only stopped when I sat in the pen,  on a chair,  all night.  It was heart breaking,  and I was at a level of exhaustion which I haven't known since!

Generally speaking,  when we have huge population rises,  in any bird or mammal,  it's because the environment is suitable.  Just what has been responsible for the massive lift,  for instance in Magpies and Buzzards,  I don't understand,  because neither are reliant upon reared game,  and as we now rear so many pheasants,  we tend to ignore the naturally produced wild birds,  no matter what your local 'keeper will tell you!!

We seem to have our world,  no matter how you look at it,  altered so that common sense has been abandoned.  Just as we have an employment system,  where the power of the unions has been severed,  so we now have a system whereby the employer seems able to do as he pleases.  So with wild life,  we live in a world where the charities,  the conservationists,  and I'm sorry,  but the bunny huggers,  have a power which they seem unable to manage.  Everything has to live for ever,  we have badgers in numbers where there is no control,  we have urban foxes which are,  or soon will be living in greater numbers than their rural cousins.

With moderation,  every living creature needs to be predated,  but within reasonable bounds.

My meal's ready so I'm off!!

Alec.


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## Mrs B (26 May 2012)

Alec Swan said:



			I apologise for disappearing,  I had no choice.  Anyway,  I do have clear thoughts,  and they've grown and coalesced through the years.  These are only _my thoughts_,  and I'm not insisting that I'm right!!

Firstly,  I was previously employed for a good few years on commercially run shoots,  as a game keeper.  I still shoot,  but am starting to view the commercialisation of shooting with some distaste.  I try not to let that cloud my views though!!

Buzzards are curious birds,  in that they are neither hawks nor falcons nor eagles,  and were never of use to the falconer,  for the simple reason that they were too slow,  and too clumsy to actually catch anything.  

I was always under the impression that they relied upon carrion,  and as they were in such limited numbers,  they managed to eke out a living.  Now that there has been a population explosion,  I've had to do a bit of research,  and have discovered that the bulk of the buzzard's diet is made up from earth worms and beetles.  That seems to me to be a very strange diet for one of our largest birds of prey.   Those simple facts,  in themselves make them of little threat to the game keeper,  and I always found that during the months of September to November,  when pheasants would stray from home,  and I used to spend most of my waking hours,  "Dogging" birds home.  When the Buzzard was about,  straying across open fields was minimised.  He was something of an ally!!  

There's no doubt that buzzards will catch the odd early released poult against netting,  but the damage at the release pen is for from the disturbance factor,  than the birds which are killed,  and they can be a bloody nuisance.  Of greater nuisance factor,  are Tawny Owls and they can wreak costly havoc.  It's generally adult owls teaching their fledged youngsters how to kill,  and they can go on a spree.  I once had a release pen with 2500 birds in it,  and with nightly attacks,  within ten days,  I was feeding about 250 birds every morning.  The attacks only stopped when I sat in the pen,  on a chair,  all night.  It was heart breaking,  and I was at a level of exhaustion which I haven't known since!

Generally speaking,  when we have huge population rises,  in any bird or mammal,  it's because the environment is suitable.  Just what has been responsible for the massive lift,  for instance in Magpies and Buzzards,  I don't understand,  because neither are reliant upon reared game,  and as we now rear so many pheasants,  we tend to ignore the naturally produced wild birds,  no matter what your local 'keeper will tell you!!

We seem to have our world,  no matter how you look at it,  altered so that common sense has been abandoned.  Just as we have an employment system,  where the power of the unions has been severed,  so we now have a system whereby the employer seems able to do as he pleases.  So with wild life,  we live in a world where the charities,  the conservationists,  and I'm sorry,  but the bunny huggers,  have a power which they seem unable to manage.  Everything has to live for ever,  we have badgers in numbers where there is no control,  we have urban foxes which are,  or soon will be living in greater numbers than their rural cousins.

With moderation,  every living creature needs to be predated,  but within reasonable bounds.

My meal's ready so I'm off!!

Alec.
		
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Agree with everything, except about the loss of power by the Unions - blackmailing, dinosuar-type, greedy personages... (being as polite as I can type here)


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## Hairy Old Cob (26 May 2012)

marmalade76 said:



			Shoots have nothing to do with agriculture, they are for stinking rich townies up from London for a weekend jolly 'cause it's the thing to do. Yes, I know a few farmers who shoot, but on their own land, not these big estate shoots. Here speaks the wife of a man who has worked in agriculture all his life and couldn't give a stuff if we never see a weekend shooter again!!
		
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Marmalade 76 I was always told if you do not know what you are talking about then it is better to keep your mouth SHUT and listen to those that DO Their are the Big Shoots that I dont go along with but most are like the syndicate I am in you walk 18 Miles and are lucky if you get half a dozen shots.
And yes I have been a guest gun on some of the Big posh Shoots and if you had wanted you could have had a massacre but most guns are like myself pick and choose the birds you shoot. Because getting 3-4 shots per drive is a luxury, not having a second gun and a loader. 
I am not one of the stinking rich brigade but one of the 80 hour a week Brigade I earn Good money but work Fuc**** hard for it, and Yes I am No Townie and I left Agriculture Begrudgingly So that I could earn BETTER MONEY.


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## marmalade76 (27 May 2012)

Miss L Toe said:



			Estates manage the land to promote wildlife and conservation, sowing crops to provide cover and feed, these increase biodiversity for insects and birds. Hedges are maintained [cf farmland these days], grass is not ploughed and re-seeded with rygrass monoculture, rapeseed [an abomination due to pollen], is limited, winter barley and wheat will not be doused in herbicides and pesticides if game are reared on the estate. Forest drives will be maintained, and the whole estate will be kept neat and tidy. 
The more work which can be generated in the countryside, the better as far as I am concerned: employment is available for the gamekeeper, his assistant, and all the beaters, drivers, catering staff, guest houses and the local pub will gain income. Children are born, keeping the local school in business.
The agricultural industry contributes only 1% to GDP, and one percent to the UK vote, but if the rich and powerful do a bit of shooting, they are worth pandering to!.... politically and economically.
		
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Red bit - a bit of a joke considering what this thread is about!

These local schools you talk of, unfortunately for us, we cannot afford to live where my husband works what with all the house prices being driven up by the influx of townies (who have to be fairly well off to move there), even a place with an ag tie is expensive 'cause the ties are so easy to get rid of these days, so, we are unable to support the village school. No, instead we have to live in a town and spend a fortune on fuel to so my husband can drive to and from work whilst the country dwelling townies drive the other way!

 No estste or shooting business puts any work our way.


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## marmalade76 (27 May 2012)

Hairy Old Cob said:



			Marmalade 76 I was always told if you do not know what you are talking about then it is better to keep your mouth SHUT and listen to those that DO Their are the Big Shoots that I dont go along with but most are like the syndicate I am in you walk 18 Miles and are lucky if you get half a dozen shots.
And yes I have been a guest gun on some of the Big posh Shoots and if you had wanted you could have had a massacre but most guns are like myself pick and choose the birds you shoot. Because getting 3-4 shots per drive is a luxury, not having a second gun and a loader. 
I am not one of the stinking rich brigade but one of the 80 hour a week Brigade I earn Good money but work Fuc**** hard for it, and Yes I am No Townie and I left Agriculture Begrudgingly So that I could earn BETTER MONEY.
		
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Traitor! 


My reply was aimed at Miss L toe who suggested that large estate shoots were part of agriculture, as someone married to some who works in agriculture, I disagree. She was also talking about large estate shoots, which my husband informs me costs a hell of a lot of money to shoot at, I assume is bit different from what you do.

She also states that this is about pandering to the rich and powerful, which you have been obviously keen to point out that you are not.


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## marmalade76 (27 May 2012)

Anyway, I admit you are right, Hairy, I don't really know much about it, despite being in agriculture and all 

Someone tried to set up a shooting school right next to where my ponies are. PP was turned down due to the fact that there is a bridleway  and public footpath running right through their farm.  Plenty of buzzards round here and I hope that that's the way it stays


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## Faithkat (27 May 2012)

I have buzzards in my fields most of the time - they do a wonderful job keeping the pesky wild rabbits down, but what I don't understand with regard to the original post/link is that - quote - "The species is protected under the Wildlife and Countryside Act 1981 and it is an offence to kill, injure or take a buzzard, or to take, damage or destroy an active nest or its contents."   So the law is going to be changed to suit someone's purpose again, is it?


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## Miss L Toe (27 May 2012)

I may have painted an ideal situation, but they do exist.
http://www.ukagriculture.com/conservation/purdey_award.cfm
... not all the awards are to Lords of the Realm, but it is fitting that the largest landowners should be at the forefront of conservation, and I would point out that they do own a lot of farmland, and have a good grip of farming practices on their land.
Over the last twenty years grants have been made available to help with countryside stewardship, many mistakes have been made, but even on a local scale, biodiversity is seen as  progression not regression in the countryside.
Agriculture has shaped the landscapes of the UK, but we have to remember that there is not only the GDP of agriculture to consider, but also wider implications for tourism, country crafts, rural employment in general. not everyone wants to live in a city, or in a rural area, but most ordinary people enjoy the countryside, and use it for their leisure pursuits.


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## Miss L Toe (27 May 2012)

Faithkat said:



			I have buzzards in my fields most of the time - they do a wonderful job keeping the pesky wild rabbits down, but what I don't understand with regard to the original post/link is that - quote - "The species is protected under the Wildlife and Countryside Act 1981 and it is an offence to kill, injure or take a buzzard, or to take, damage or destroy an active nest or its contents."   So the law is going to be changed to suit someone's purpose again, is it?
		
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Quite a few people on here took exception to hundreds of thousands being put in to research which is flawed, and looks at illegal practices, it is a waste of money, nothing will be done, nor should it, time and time again we have seen people state that buzzards are territorial, and will adjust their territory to adapt to the prey available.
A lot of UK voters once considered that hunting foxes in pink coats was an offence to their political views, so it became a vote catching exercise, after that [ban on hunting] fiasco, I don't see this law being altered.


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## Fantasy_World (27 May 2012)

Firstly raising game birds for shooting is nothing like a farmer rearing stock. One is to sustain a hobby and the other for food. 
Game was a vital part of the diet many, many years ago now and even butchers that I know used to have more game displayed than they do now. I might see the occasional rabbit and odd pheasant but that is about it.
I can understand that shooting and raising game birds to be shot does support jobs and the local economy where the shoots take place, but then so did hunting and that was considered a hobbyist sport too.
I have no issue with people raising game birds to be shot as long as they are raised humanely and dispatched as quickly and as pain free as possible.
I would prefer the birds to be wild however in today's modern Britain that is near high impossible unless shooting takes place in remote places in the UK.
What I do have an issue with is the killing of any raptor just so their culling would lead to a higher number of game bird survival ( or so is thought).
I agree that buzzard numbers have increased over the years. When I was child the only place I would see them was in Wales or Devon on holiday. There was a couple that lived in woodland near to me around 14 years ago but I am now seeing more buzzards in the area and can even hang out washing and watch them rise on the thermals. I do live in a semi rural area though.
I enjoy watching them and I want to continue seeing them.
Buzzards do eat rabbits and they do also feed on carrion.
Has anyone thought that the reason that the carrion eaters are surviving in numbers is due to the carrion that we as humans are providing them.
I do not know the exact figures but I do know that the number and widths of roads has increased since my childhood to adulthood. There has also been a huge increase on the traffic on the roads. Not just in towns but the country roads too. 
Improved engines, increases in road speed ( and handling) coupled with quieter cars means that animals on the roads ( or verges) are more at risk now than they ever were. Add to this more vehicles on the roads and you can see the developing picture.
It would be interesting if anyone has ever conducted an average annual tonnage of road kill per year in the UK. Wild birds and animals as well as pets and livestock.
I would put my life on this to say that there is more roadkill now in the UK than there was say in the 1970's and even the 80's!
This roadkill is part of what is feeding the animals and birds that eat carrion as part of their diets.
Human intervention yet again. We have fuelled the problem and now we are trying to kill the animals to sort an issue that we have helped to create in the first place. It always the animals that get it though isn't it. We never tackle the real issues though do we like too many cars, too many humans in the UK and the destruction of habitat for human gain?
If the killing of buzzards does go ahead then I can see this opening up the flood gates for requests to kill other birds of prey


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## Miss L Toe (27 May 2012)

In Ye Olden Days the gamekeeper and his pals shot or poisoned anything that moved, this is now illegal, hence more buzzards, more Red Kite [carrion elective] and so on.
Dieldrin has been banned, so eggshells are stronger and more birds have more breeding success. 
There may be more road kill, but birds of prey have greater breeding success and are in less danger when adult.
Pheasant are non native and would not last long if left to themselves, Grouse are subject to severe population swings, but appear to need extensive and expensive moorland habitat management. Grey Partridge and other native game birds need a particular habitat which means that landowners have to manage their environment.
PS I am no particular expert on these things, though I do have some education in things agricultural, it is common knowledge among people raised in the country.


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## Fantasy_World (27 May 2012)

[ no particular expert on these things, though I do have some education in things agricultural, it is common knowledge among people raised in the country.[/QUOTE]

Is this meant to be wit?


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## Miss L Toe (27 May 2012)

Fantasy_World said:



			[ no particular expert on these things, though I do have some education in things agricultural, it is common knowledge among people raised in the country.
		
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Is this meant to be wit?[/QUOTE]
Not really, I just think  lot of the postings on this thread are from people who have strong opinions, with minimal understanding of farming and conservation.


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## Fantasy_World (27 May 2012)

How can you make those assumptions of people who you have A) not met and B) know nothing about their life and experiences?


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## Alec Swan (27 May 2012)

Fantasy_World said:



			How can you make those assumptions of people who you have A) not met and B) know nothing about their life and experiences?
		
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I'd say that's fairly simple.  You read their thoughts,  and propositions,  and draw your own conclusions.  

Alec.


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## Dobiegirl (27 May 2012)

Some of us are lucky enough to have a crystal ball.


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## jrp204 (28 May 2012)

My brothers farm 500 acres, mostly cereals, over the last 15 yrs we have had a massive explosion of buzzards, my OH counted 33 in the field he was ploughing last year. We have ravens, sparrowhawks, kestrels, buzzards, magpies, jays, barn and tawny owls, you name it we have them! There is also a syndicate of shooters on the farm which puts down about 200 poults a year, have they had a problem with buzzards, no, roadkill yes. The shoot has also meant my brother has a real willingness to plant game cover etc which is a huge boost to other farmland birds which are generally in decline. We have exeter uni monitering the barn owls around the farm and they have had a major problem with the tawny's taking the chicks, neither owl box last year fledged chicks, they were all taken which was rather gutting.


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## marmalade76 (28 May 2012)

Fantasy_World said:



			Firstly raising game birds for shooting is nothing like a farmer rearing stock. One is to sustain a hobby and the other for food. 
Game was a vital part of the diet many, many years ago now and even butchers that I know used to have more game displayed than they do now. I might see the occasional rabbit and odd pheasant but that is about it.
I can understand that shooting and raising game birds to be shot does support jobs and the local economy where the shoots take place, but then so did hunting and that was considered a hobbyist sport too.
I have no issue with people raising game birds to be shot as long as they are raised humanely and dispatched as quickly and as pain free as possible.
I would prefer the birds to be wild however in today's modern Britain that is near high impossible unless shooting takes place in remote places in the UK.
What I do have an issue with is the killing of any raptor just so their culling would lead to a higher number of game bird survival ( or so is thought).
I agree that buzzard numbers have increased over the years. When I was child the only place I would see them was in Wales or Devon on holiday. There was a couple that lived in woodland near to me around 14 years ago but I am now seeing more buzzards in the area and can even hang out washing and watch them rise on the thermals. I do live in a semi rural area though.
I enjoy watching them and I want to continue seeing them.
Buzzards do eat rabbits and they do also feed on carrion.
Has anyone thought that the reason that the carrion eaters are surviving in numbers is due to the carrion that we as humans are providing them.
I do not know the exact figures but I do know that the number and widths of roads has increased since my childhood to adulthood. There has also been a huge increase on the traffic on the roads. Not just in towns but the country roads too. 
Improved engines, increases in road speed ( and handling) coupled with quieter cars means that animals on the roads ( or verges) are more at risk now than they ever were. Add to this more vehicles on the roads and you can see the developing picture.
It would be interesting if anyone has ever conducted an average annual tonnage of road kill per year in the UK. Wild birds and animals as well as pets and livestock.
I would put my life on this to say that there is more roadkill now in the UK than there was say in the 1970's and even the 80's!
This roadkill is part of what is feeding the animals and birds that eat carrion as part of their diets.
Human intervention yet again. We have fuelled the problem and now we are trying to kill the animals to sort an issue that we have helped to create in the first place. It always the animals that get it though isn't it. We never tackle the real issues though do we like too many cars, too many humans in the UK and the destruction of habitat for human gain?
If the killing of buzzards does go ahead then I can see this opening up the flood gates for requests to kill other birds of prey 

Click to expand...

Excellent post and agree 100%! 

A lot of it was what I was trying to say but not clever enough to say it quite so well!

Re buzzards in semi-rural areas - I live in Tewkesbury, right in town and I see buzzards flying around here. The flood meadows provide the right habitat for them - no pheasants put out there!


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## stencilface (28 May 2012)

As an aside, I live near one of the places where red kites were released, they spread further each year it seems.  This year is the first year I have seen them in a truly urban area, an area dominated by 'restaurants' and tens of takeway joints.  I can only assume that the red kites have learnt the the curry and fried chicken waste is too good to miss


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## EAST KENT (28 May 2012)

Sparrow hawks are my hate,and of anyone with a loft of very expensive (thousands of pounds each bird) racing pigeons  that has these pests lunching off their pride and joys.Bloody nuisance; mine were only ornamental doves,but that family I had had since 1970, we need the right to deal with the nuisance if it affects us.
   Not many buzzards over this way,but with the population explosion of foxes our country ones need the rabbits to live off. Everything was fine before the bunny huggers interfered.


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## Dobiegirl (28 May 2012)

jrp204 said:



			My brothers farm 500 acres, mostly cereals, over the last 15 yrs we have had a massive explosion of buzzards, my OH counted 33 in the field he was ploughing last year. We have ravens, sparrowhawks, kestrels, buzzards, magpies, jays, barn and tawny owls, you name it we have them! There is also a syndicate of shooters on the farm which puts down about 200 poults a year, have they had a problem with buzzards, no, roadkill yes. The shoot has also meant my brother has a real willingness to plant game cover etc which is a huge boost to other farmland birds which are generally in decline. We have exeter uni monitering the barn owls around the farm and they have had a major problem with the tawny's taking the chicks, neither owl box last year fledged chicks, they were all taken which was rather gutting.
		
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I would say your brother has provided the perfect habitat for wildlife, Ravens are on the decline and confined to certain areas so your brother must be very pleased. Its a big shame about the Barn Owl chicks and Im sure the mortality from Tawny Owls is under estimated.


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## Miss L Toe (28 May 2012)

Stencilface said:



			As an aside, I live near one of the places where red kites were released, they spread further each year it seems.  This year is the first year I have seen them in a truly urban area, an area dominated by 'restaurants' and tens of takeway joints.  I can only assume that the red kites have learnt the the curry and fried chicken waste is too good to miss  

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I can't "blame" foxes, red kites, or rats for taking the opportunity to eat the debris left lying around by the most evil, manipulative, and destructive species on the planet..... Homo Sapiens.


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## marmalade76 (28 May 2012)

Miss L Toe said:



			I can't "blame" foxes, red kites, or rats for taking the opportunity to eat the debris left lying around by the most evil, manipulative, and destructive species on the planet..... Homo Sapiens.
		
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Agree with you there, it's humans that need thinning out, not buzzards.


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## Miss L Toe (28 May 2012)

Fantasy_World said:



			Firstly raising game birds for shooting is nothing like a farmer rearing stock. One is to sustain a hobby and the other for food. 
Game was a vital part of the diet many, many years ago now and even butchers that I know used to have more game displayed than they do now. I might see the occasional rabbit and odd pheasant but that is about it. 

Click to expand...

Several points to  pick up on here, one man's hobby is another persons lively-hood, look at any of the leisure industries. 
There is a similarity to raising game birds and farmers rearing stock,  young birds are hatched [like chickens] then  kept in small pens with feed, then fed more. Then killed.
Butchers are running a business, and what with Environmental Services, and customer squeamishness, etcetera, the butcher who is also a game dealer no longer preps the birds on the premises. He sells frozen prepared birds, that is the main reason for not seeing fully feathered birds and furry bunnies on sale,  the modern housewife expects her meat to be free of feather and fur.
Game may have been part of the rural diet, but subsistence farmers preferred rabbits, deer, pigeons too.  It depends how far you wish to go back, in the Middle Ages,  a Warrener was a person employed to keep rabbits to provide food over the winter, Dovecotes, with live pigeons provided  birds for meat in winter. 
The taking of deer was always contentious, with poor forest dwelling peeps not averse to killing a deer to prevent their families starving, while The King maintained his Parks for Hunting. Even today the Landowner in the Highlands objects to locals taking meat for the pot, though poaching is a lucrative "hobby"


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## 1life (28 May 2012)

EAST KENT said:



			Sparrow hawks are my hate,and of anyone with a loft of very expensive (thousands of pounds each bird) racing pigeons  that has these pests lunching off their pride and joys.Bloody nuisance; mine were only ornamental doves,but that family I had had since 1970, we need the right to deal with the nuisance if it affects us.
   Not many buzzards over this way,but with the population explosion of foxes our country ones need the rabbits to live off. Everything was fine before the bunny huggers interfered.

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Oh pleeeeeeeease . The culling of wild birds so that they don't cause a 'nuisance' and  (while acting in a perfectly natural way), kill a pigeon! Before you raise your arms in protest, I am not belittling the fact that the pigeons meant a lot to you, I am sure they did. But to call a sparrow hawk 'a pest, that needs 'dealing with' because it preys in your vicinity is another example of humans thinking they should have everything as they like it. You were raising it's dinner for it! Maybe you were in it's area, not vice versa?

p.s. not a bunny hugger, just a WILD life lover.


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## Fantasy_World (28 May 2012)

Miss L Toe said:



			Several points to  pick up on here, one man's hobby is another persons lively-hood, look at any of the leisure industries. 
There is a similarity to raising game birds and farmers rearing stock,  young birds are hatched [like chickens] then  kept in small pens with feed, then fed more. Then killed.
Butchers are running a business, and what with Environmental Services, and customer squeamishness, etcetera, the butcher who is also a game dealer no longer preps the birds on the premises. He sells frozen prepared birds, that is the main reason for not seeing fully feathered birds and furry bunnies on sale,  the modern housewife expects her meat to be free of feather and fur.
Game may have been part of the rural diet, but subsistence farmers preferred rabbits, deer, pigeons too.  It depends how far you wish to go back, in the Middle Ages,  a Warrener was a person employed to keep rabbits to provide food over the winter, Dovecotes, with live pigeons provided  birds for meat in winter. 
The taking of deer was always contentious, with poor forest dwelling peeps not averse to killing a deer to prevent their families starving, while The King maintained his Parks for Hunting. Even today the Landowner in the Highlands objects to locals taking meat for the pot, though poaching is a lucrative "hobby"
		
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I knew a lot of the latter as I researched the role of Warrener for an article I wrote about ferreting, as I also happen to keep ferrets and have been rabbiting in the past. 
Not every housewife wants the animals fur and feather free, only those raised on supermarket style meat I would imagine. I have no issues paunching and skinning rabbits, or plucking birds. I also happily dispatch fish then gut and fillet when I catch them too. 
Birds may be raised to be shot and the eaten, however shooting in the main today is a hobby. The modern man has no need to be a hunter/gatherer now. Not when we have so many food options readily available. Birds are not being shot in the UK so that families will not starve. 
Raising a bird to be released to be killed may be similar to a farmer raising pigs, sheep and cattle for instance, but it is not the same. The latter are mostly raised commercially to fuel the demand for cheap meat. The average pheasant raised to be shot will most likely end up on someone's plate, but this will be as a delicacy, unlike a piece of pork, chicken or beef for instance. 
The only similarities is the raising of stock and the actual penning up and fattening/maturing. 
The gamekeeper is making a living out of his or her work and so is the farmer.
However my point is that I do not feel there is enough justification to allow the destruction of nests and the harming/killing of birds of prey purely on the basis to supposedly protect birds which are not native ( in some cases) and do not form part of today's staple diet.
I feel this is very different from a farmer protecting their free range chickens from foxes for instance.
Chickens are part of the staple diet for most meat eaters, pheasants are not.


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## Fantasy_World (28 May 2012)

Miss L Toe said:



			I can't "blame" foxes, red kites, or rats for taking the opportunity to eat the debris left lying around by the most evil, manipulative, and destructive species on the planet..... Homo Sapiens.
		
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I do agree with this though ^^^^


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## Alec Swan (28 May 2012)

Fantasy_World said:



			.......

The modern man has no need to be a hunter/gatherer now. Not when we have so many food options readily available. 

.......
		
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I quite enjoyed your post,  with the exception of the above remark.  You're right,  of course,  man has no need to hunt for food,  just as he has no need to tie fishing flies,  and test himself against the willy trout.  He needn't set the "Bender",  to snare the hedge living rat,  but he does it,  again to test himself.

There are lots of things that man needn't do,  but within some there's a base instinct,  and whilst killing is only an aspect of the doing,  obviously living creatures die at the hand of man,  when there is no "apparent" reason,  or need.

When I was young,  during the early '60s,  the average farm workers wage was probably about £8-9 per week.  I could earn that,  and more during my Easter and Winter school holidays,  ferreting,  and how I loved it.  My mother was appalled that I earned so much money,  certainly as much as she did,  and during my straightened childhood,  the money was handy!  

Anyway,  we're wandering away from the current theme of this thread.  30 years ago when I worked as a game keeper,  shooting had to be paid for,  of course,  but I find todays let shooting rather distasteful,  and it has little to do with the skill of anyone,  it seems to me,  but everything to do with just how much money those who shoot are prepared to spend.

Going back to the massive increase in the populations of certain birds,  I generally recon that there needs to be a feed structure in place,  for this to happen,  but just why Magpies and Buzzards should have prospered as they have,  is a mystery.

Alec.


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## rhino (28 May 2012)

Caol Ila said:



			Oh, wait, they're doing that.  My OH lives in the Southern Uplands near the Buccleuch Estate and that's a completely managed ecosystem, all for the sake of grouse.  Anything -- raptors, stoats, foxes - that eats grouse is shot, trapped, poisoned, legality be damned.  You can see on the hills that it's a complete monoculture, and because predators that eat grouse also eat rabbits, the place is crawling with the bloody things.  Yet you hardly see a raptor in the area.
		
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Which of their estates?  I livery on their main estate at Bowhill and see no resemblance whatsoever to what you've posted.


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## EAST KENT (28 May 2012)

1life said:



			Oh pleeeeeeeease . The culling of wild birds so that they don't cause a 'nuisance' and  (while acting in a perfectly natural way), kill a pigeon! Before you raise your arms in protest, I am not belittling the fact that the pigeons meant a lot to you, I am sure they did. But to call a sparrow hawk 'a pest, that needs 'dealing with' because it preys in your vicinity is another example of humans thinking they should have everything as they like it. You were raising it's dinner for it! Maybe you were in it's area, not vice versa?

p.s. not a bunny hugger, just a WILD life lover.
		
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 It is probably quite "natural" for foxes to kill lambs,but we shoot them as nuisances..same difference. As for it being "natural" to kill incredibly expensive racing pigeons ..words fail me. Simply put,these predators ,since protection,have over populated and need control.


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## Alec Swan (28 May 2012)

Caol Ila said:



			.......

Oh, wait, they're doing that.  My OH lives in the Southern Uplands near the Buccleuch Estate and that's a completely managed ecosystem, all for the sake of grouse.  Anything -- raptors, stoats, foxes - that eats grouse is shot, trapped, poisoned, legality be damned.  You can see on the hills that it's a complete monoculture, and because predators that eat grouse also eat rabbits, the place is crawling with the bloody things.  Yet you hardly see a raptor in the area.  

.......
		
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I hadn't noticed this post until it was pointed out to me.  Are we to assume that you have evidence of these claims,  and accusations?  Without clear proof,  you really have no right to make such unfounded and shameful accusations.  Produce the evidence,  and I'll withdraw my words.

Alec.


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## 1life (28 May 2012)

EAST KENT said:



			It is probably quite "natural" for foxes to kill lambs,but we shoot them as nuisances..same difference. As for it being "natural" to kill incredibly expensive racing pigeons ..words fail me. Simply put,these predators ,since protection,have over populated and need control.
		
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No, not 'same difference'. In fact, very different! Lambs are probably being reared for food consumption, expensive racing pigeons are being reared for a leisure time pursuit.

The sparrow hawk is hardly going to notice the price tag on the top of a pigeon's head and leave it be if it's a home-bred expensive pet. So yes, the kill IS natural to them!

Yes, they are predators. That IS natural.


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## Dobiegirl (28 May 2012)

The Sparrow Hawk has been the bane of my life at times taking the wild birds I spend a fortune feeding. Now that the Swallows are here the wild birds stand more of a chance as the Swallows see them before they strike and give their warning cry.

I also have Pigeons and have lost a lot to the Sparrow Hawk but was luckily enough if you can call it luck to see a Peregrine come in and take one. It wasnt until a few moments after I thought Oh flip that was my Pigeon.


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## Tormenta (28 May 2012)

EAST KENT said:



			It is probably quite "natural" for foxes to kill lambs,but we shoot them as nuisances..same difference. As for it being "natural" to kill incredibly expensive racing pigeons ..words fail me. Simply put,these predators ,since protection,have over populated and need control.
		
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Lambs are someone's livelihood, racing pigeons are a hobby. Not the same difference IMO. I'm quite sure the Sparrowhawk doesn't differentiate on how much it's lunch cost you. They have as much right to be on this planet as you have.


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## Fantasy_World (29 May 2012)

Tormenta and 1life I agree with both of you. The hawks are behaving naturally and killing other birds, that is what they do. They do it so they can eat, survive and raise chicks. How their supply derives is up to us. We feed birds in the gardens and other areas which encourages wild birds to collect in areas. Hawks notice this and will be quick on the uptake and will take birds that they can catch. As for pigeons, again they are prey to them. They are not a natural source of food as the pigeons are 'man-made' ie we breed them for speed, and homing instincts and they are far removed from their wild relatives, the rock dove wasn't it? It must be upsetting to lose prize birds however to eradicate the predator of them ( the hawks) is immoral and also un-natural. 
Most predators in the wild have no other feathered, furred or scaled predator. The top predator is us and don't we revel in that fact. Predator populations on the whole are governed by food sources, as are all wild animals in the world. When the source of food diminishes then so does the animal or bird that was using it to thrive.
When nature does go awry it is always the humans that are behind it. A fact we should always remember. Flora and fauna co existed quite happily on this earth before man's arrival and we could do well to remember that.


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## EAST KENT (29 May 2012)

Fantasy_World said:



			Tormenta and 1life I agree with both of you. The hawks are behaving naturally and killing other birds, that is what they do. They do it so they can eat, survive and raise chicks. How their supply derives is up to us. We feed birds in the gardens and other areas which encourages wild birds to collect in areas. Hawks notice this and will be quick on the uptake and will take birds that they can catch. As for pigeons, again they are prey to them. They are not a natural source of food as the pigeons are 'man-made' ie we breed them for speed, and homing instincts and they are far removed from their wild relatives, the rock dove wasn't it? It must be upsetting to lose prize birds however to eradicate the predator of them ( the hawks) is immoral and also un-natural. 
Most predators in the wild have no other feathered, furred or scaled predator. The top predator is us and don't we revel in that fact. Predator populations on the whole are governed by food sources, as are all wild animals in the world. When the source of food diminishes then so does the animal or bird that was using it to thrive.
When nature does go awry it is always the humans that are behind it. A fact we should always remember. Flora and fauna co existed quite happily on this earth before man's arrival and we could do well to remember that.
		
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 Your very name says it all PMSL


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## rhino (29 May 2012)

Fantasy_World said:



			When nature does go awry it is always the humans that are behind it. A fact we should always remember. Flora and fauna co existed quite happily on this earth before man's arrival and we could do well to remember that.
		
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Not true, there has always been evolution, speciation and extinction, it's nothing new.

*Prior* to us coming along and 'wrecking everything', it is estimated that 99.9% of all species that have ever existed became extinct 

Not such a happy existence after all...


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## Fantasy_World (29 May 2012)

EAST KENT said:



			Your very name says it all PMSL

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Gosh you are so funny ha ha I almost choked on my sandwich


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## Fantasy_World (29 May 2012)

rhino said:



			Not true, there has always been evolution, speciation and extinction, it's nothing new.

*Prior* to us coming along and 'wrecking everything', it is estimated that 99.9% of all species that have ever existed became extinct 

Not such a happy existence after all...
		
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Where was this information cited and also it also an estimation. As humans we can never know exactly what happened in the past without hard evidence to support claims.
I cannot be bothered to delve into environmental studies but I will say one thing that cannot be rebuked, that mankind has had a far greater effect on this planet than any other living species.


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## fburton (29 May 2012)

rhino said:



*Prior* to us coming along and 'wrecking everything', it is estimated that 99.9% of all species that have ever existed became extinct 

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Yes, but that was over millions of years. Apparently, we/humanity have accelerated the process enormously:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2010/mar/07/extinction-species-evolve

The IUCN created shock waves with its major assessment of the world's biodiversity in 2004, which calculated that the rate of extinction had reached 100-1,000 times that suggested by the fossil records before humans.

No formal calculations have been published since, but conservationists agree the rate of loss has increased since then, and Stuart said it was possible that the dramatic predictions of experts like the renowned Harvard biologist E O Wilson, that the rate of loss could reach 10,000 times the background rate in two decades, could be correct.


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## amandap (29 May 2012)

fburton said:



			No formal calculations have been published since, but conservationists agree the rate of loss has increased since then, and Stuart said it was possible that the dramatic predictions of experts like the renowned Harvard biologist E O Wilson, that the rate of loss could reach 10,000 times the background rate in two decades, could be correct.[/color]
		
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Perhaps there is hope for human 'happyness' then.  They will have the world to themselves with _their_ friendly species... 

Glad I wont be here to see it.

Very depressing info fburton.


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## stencilface (29 May 2012)

Ah, EO Wilson, genius man


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## Alec Swan (29 May 2012)

fburton said:



			.........


....... and Stuart said it was *possible* that the dramatic predictions of experts like the renowned Harvard biologist E O Wilson, that the rate of loss *could* reach 10,000 times the background rate in two decades, *could* be correct.

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And it's also entirely *possible,*  that within two decades the thoughts of the experts *could* be considered to be complete and utter nonsense.  We have a long way to go,  and all that's being offered is hypothesis and possibilities,  and yes,  I agree,  anything's possible. 

Alec.


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## rhino (29 May 2012)

Fantasy_World said:



			I cannot be bothered to delve into environmental studies
		
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No, facts have never appeared to be your 'thing' 

Figure comes from Newman, M (1994) A mathematical model for mass extinction (Cornell University) and is cited in a huge number of journal articles. Estimation? Of course it is, since it is covering several million years of evolution  Not so sure how 'hard facts' would be possible 

And as we have no idea of the numbers of species existing at the present time, _everything_ is an estimate! Still, feel free to pick and choose the bits of research that you like the sound of


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## brighteyes (29 May 2012)

Alec Swan said:



			I quite enjoyed your post,  with the exception of the above remark.  You're right,  of course,  man has no need to hunt for food,  just as he has no need to tie fishing flies,  and test himself against the willy trout.  He needn't set the "Bender",  to snare the hedge living rat,  but he does it,  again to test himself.

There are lots of things that man needn't do,  but within some there's a base instinct,  and whilst killing is only an aspect of the doing,  obviously living creatures die at the hand of man,  when there is no "apparent" reason,  or need.

When I was young,  during the early '60s,  the average farm workers wage was probably about £8-9 per week.  I could earn that,  and more during my Easter and Winter school holidays,  ferreting,  and how I loved it.  My mother was appalled that I earned so much money,  certainly as much as she did,  and during my straightened childhood,  the money was handy!  

Anyway,  we're wandering away from the current theme of this thread.  30 years ago when I worked as a game keeper,  shooting had to be paid for,  of course,  but I find todays let shooting rather distasteful,  and it has little to do with the skill of anyone,  it seems to me,  but everything to do with just how much money those who shoot are prepared to spend.

Going back to the massive increase in the populations of certain birds,  I generally recon that there needs to be a feed structure in place,  for this to happen,  but just why Magpies and Buzzards should have prospered as they have,  is a mystery.

Alec.
		
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Ah, the 'willy trout'. Alec, once again, you have made me smile  

The rest of the thread makes for very interesting but inconclusive reading. Are buzzards under threat or not?


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## fburton (29 May 2012)

Alec Swan said:



			And it's also entirely *possible,*  that within two decades the thoughts of the experts *could* be considered to be complete and utter nonsense.  We have a long way to go,  and all that's being offered is hypothesis and possibilities,  and yes,  I agree,  anything's possible. 

Alec.
		
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Your thoughts on the previous paragraph?

The IUCN created shock waves with its major assessment of the world's biodiversity in 2004, which calculated that the rate of extinction had reached 100-1,000 times that suggested by the fossil records before humans.



rhino said:



			And as we have no idea of the numbers of species existing at the present time, _everything_ is an estimate!
		
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Of course, and statistics is an essential tool in this area - just because we don't _count_ the oats in a scoop doesn't mean we can't feed the correct amount.


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## rhino (29 May 2012)

fburton said:



			Your thoughts on the previous paragraph?

Of course, and statistics is an essential tool in this area - just because we don't _count_ the oats in a scoop doesn't mean we can't feed the correct amount. 

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Shockwaves, and criticism of research methods aplenty 

I wasn't the one discounting estimates


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## Fantasy_World (30 May 2012)

rhino said:



			No, facts have never appeared to be your 'thing' 

Figure comes from Newman, M (1994) A mathematical model for mass extinction (Cornell University) and is cited in a huge number of journal articles. Estimation? Of course it is, since it is covering several million years of evolution  Not so sure how 'hard facts' would be possible 

And as we have no idea of the numbers of species existing at the present time, _everything_ is an estimate! Still, feel free to pick and choose the bits of research that you like the sound of 

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Gosh you have a real issue with me don't you? Did I decapitate you in a former life maybe lol.
Actually for the record facts are my thing and seeing as I have many academic qualifications to my name and also used to be employed in a job in which facts were a must then I can assure you that I am well aware of facts thankyou 
I also know how to cite too since essays and articles have been very much my thing.
The reason I don't cite on here very much is because I cannot be bothered too. At the end of the day this is just a forum, that is all it will ever be. I prefer to concentrate my efforts in real life to be honest and not in cyber space.


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## Fantasy_World (30 May 2012)

fburton said:



			Yes, but that was over millions of years. Apparently, we/humanity have accelerated the process enormously:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2010/mar/07/extinction-species-evolve

The IUCN created shock waves with its major assessment of the world's biodiversity in 2004, which calculated that the rate of extinction had reached 100-1,000 times that suggested by the fossil records before humans.

No formal calculations have been published since, but conservationists agree the rate of loss has increased since then, and Stuart said it was possible that the dramatic predictions of experts like the renowned Harvard biologist E O Wilson, that the rate of loss could reach 10,000 times the background rate in two decades, could be correct.

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Very interesting reading and I happen to share the same views. I have been interested in wildlife and ecology for many, many years. I even studied EVS at A level years ago. 
It is very doubtful that the human race will ever become extinct but if it did I would be 99.9% sure it would be by our own hands.


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## rhino (30 May 2012)

Fantasy_World said:



			Gosh you have a real issue with me don't you?
		
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 No, I don't have an issue with you, just your statement that 



Fantasy_World said:



			When nature does go awry it is always the humans that are behind it. A fact we should always remember. Flora and fauna co existed quite happily on this earth before man's arrival and we could do well to remember that.
		
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which I felt was simplistic and untrue, so I responded 

Seems a bit hypocritical that you 'can't be bothered' citing yet request it of others , but then so does 



Fantasy_World said:



			I cannot be bothered to delve into environmental studies .
		
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Fantasy_World said:



			I have been interested in wildlife and ecology for many, many years.
		
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Ah, the old cherry...



Fantasy_World said:



			I prefer to concentrate my efforts in real life to be honest and not in cyber space.
		
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Love it


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## EAST KENT (30 May 2012)

Yes ..amusing is`nt FW,well, I reserve the right,legal or otherwise ,to deal with anything that causes my property injury or death..so there.


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## marmalade76 (30 May 2012)

brighteyes said:



			Ah, the 'willy trout'. Alec, once again, you have made me smile  

The rest of the thread makes for very interesting but inconclusive reading. Are buzzards under threat or not?
		
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It appears not 

http://www.countryside-alliance.org...sappointed-by-defra-u-turn-on-buzzard-control


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## mtj (30 May 2012)

Good result


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## horserugsnot4u (30 May 2012)

amandap said:



			Perhaps there is hope for human 'happyness' then.  They will have the world to themselves with _their_ friendly species... 

Glad I wont be here to see it.

Me to. The thought of a world full of humans and their b****y pet cats!  
Perhaps the declining songbird population should be considered more of an issue rather than a few artificially reared pheasants.
		
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## lazybee (30 May 2012)

Just kill everything that causes us a minor inconvenience........... That's all


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## Luci07 (30 May 2012)

Interesting but inconclusive. I sit on the fence regarding shooting as I don't know what I a talking about ...which would not always seem to be the case on this post!! shooting has been in the background  it not one of my interests but the discussion about buzzard control did catch my eye, particularly when Alec suggests that the taking of young pheasants could be reduced by changing basic management.

I do however, hang my head in shame. I am one of those who wants their meat nicely sanitised and packaged up. I was brought up and consider myself a country girl but a couple of sessions helping clean up, gut amd pluck my uncles shot pheasants put me off for life.  Logically, as I like to eat meat, I should be able to do this. Weakly and somewhat hypocritically...I can't!


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## Fantasy_World (30 May 2012)

marmalade76 said:



			It appears not 

http://www.countryside-alliance.org...sappointed-by-defra-u-turn-on-buzzard-control

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Brilliant news and seemingly very sensible too


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## Alec Swan (4 June 2012)

brighteyes said:



			.......

Are buzzards under threat or not?
		
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An interesting question,  and in short,  no they aren't.  It's a strange thing,  but if we can accept the use of the word "Vermin",  and include buzzards,  within that,  then "Vermin",  in what ever form,  are the greatest of survivors.  

It seems strange to me,  but we nurture and protect our game birds and we find them incredibly fragile.  We turn our hand against "Vermin",  and despite our best efforts at eradication,  they seem to prosper.  "Vermin" doesn't seem to need an environment which is conducive,  as do our game birds,  "Vermin" seems to survive,  no matter what we do,  and I for one wouldn't have it any other way.  

Consider the European Fox;  I would be prepared to bet that now effective hunting has been outlawed,  and despite the fact that the hand of everyone,  or so it seems,  is turned against Reynard,  the actual numbers have increased to a level which aren't sustainable,  which again,  is turning the hand of the unqualified and inexperienced towards a far greater degree of cruelty than previously.  That's factually correct,  and desperately sad,  I think.

brighteyes,  I wouldn't worry to much,  those who live by their wits aren't actually the one's in need of protection,  and yes,  we can include buzzards in that! 

Alec.


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## EAST KENT (4 June 2012)

Anything that is a bloody nuisance ,of any sort including people do seem to reproduce alarmingly


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