# Serious dressage riders - which one of these two?



## cptrayes (20 December 2010)

Can I ask for your help? If you were looking to buy, and price was the same, which one of these two would you choose, and why? Please ignore the fact that the chestnut has not yet been backed and allow for the brown being a year older (but only three months under saddle).  I'm not interested in breeding, either, just how they move. Both are 17+ hands and "backward"  babies if you could allow for that.

Alll comments very gratefully received 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bvmQ1QuBEcs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xmCWuGYaj6o


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## millitiger (20 December 2010)

bay has a lot of contact issues which would need to be undone imo.

neither have a good enough hindleg for me or enough lift and suspension but I would go for the chestnut purely because he is more of a blank canvas.


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## sarahhelen1977 (20 December 2010)

I would want to see the chestnut moving loose without sidereins and would want to see both horses in walk before I made any decisions.


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## Oscar (20 December 2010)

Hard to compare one ridden and one lunged, but the chestnuts hocks look a little too close, and in freedom in the school I would have liked to see more lift in the shoulder and more power from behind. Nice horse though and very mannerly.

The bay had real wow! Look at me, but why was his head dipping all the time? Either the rider was holding on for dear life or something is not quite right! Might have been backed in draw reins or something? 

I'd have to sit on the bay or see it lunged, it looks the better machine - but the head bobbing is a worry?  Tack could pinch who knows?


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## La Fiaba (20 December 2010)

agree with above, couldnt even watch that video of the bay.


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## kezimac (20 December 2010)

bay looked lovely but again as previous ppl have said contact issues but watch rider she is using alot of hand - which may be to help him 'look' round and help him balance but i would prefer her to leave him alone and not hold him up and see how he goes- it depends how much needs to be undone with him.


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## tristar (20 December 2010)

one is restricted by side reins, the other is overbent, i'd look for a horse that no one as mucked around.


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## dominobrown (20 December 2010)

to me the bay horse is not ready for that walk yet. I don't think it understands what the bit is yet, looks a bit forced. He hasn't been mouthed properly at all.


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## cptrayes (20 December 2010)

Useful comments, thanks. Perhaps I should mention that they aren't mega-budget. I'm happy to accept some issues to get the best mover that I can for less than £10k  and this pair are by far the best I've found, including horses that dealers are selling at £15k. That's huge money to me, but not compared to what my friends are spending on horses that don't look to me as if they move as well as either of this pair. I'm seeing the bay tomorrow and have already told them I want to see him loose. He does have some issues with his mouth, that's pretty clear, but at least I should be able to ride him and find out what they are.


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## rowy (20 December 2010)

bay looks nice but agree he isnt being ridden very well :S
Really dont like the chestnuts hind leg confo. hocks really close and too sort of loopy from point of buttock to hock and strung out behind body- think you would have soundness issues.


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## Orangehorse (20 December 2010)

I would be worried about the bay's unsteady headcarriage.  Wouldn't that be very hard to eradicate and he might revert at any time?  The chestnut was nice, although didn't have wonderful hind leg conformation.


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## Bryndu (20 December 2010)

Here I go!......ducking hastily whilst posting!
Neither! ....save your money and keep looking....VERY flat canters from both.
Chestnut in preference although tail set too low for my liking.
Black turns a toe in too badly for me and regardless of the head movement, I was surprised at the lack of an uphill canter.
Sorry if this was not what you wanted to hear.....just my opinion and no malice attached to it, just think there are nicer beasties out there.
Bryndu


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## LEC (20 December 2010)

The bay will be stunning. I have had very similar contact issues with my horse who was  broken a couple of months ago and having his wolf teeth out has altered most those issues as he will now take the contact forwards rather than just curling or throwing it back at you. Its not perfect but its getting there. 
The chestnut is not terribly special. I am surprised at the money mentioned and if you are looking for 3yos especially at this time of year. 
It would be well worth your while speaking to http://www.brownscombestud.co.uk/ as they had some super 3yos who were big as I need over 16.2hh. I was really interested in one of them but they did not have enough TB blood as ultimately mine go eventing. The money was very reasonable because they want the progeny to go to decent sporting homes to show off the stallion.


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## carthorse (20 December 2010)

No wonder so many people have problems with dressage if this is how some people are starting them . Bay already looks bridle lame , is pulled in with slow hindlegs. 
Why oh why do these people do this to horses?


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## seabsicuit2 (20 December 2010)

Not a serious dressage rider sorry! But these are my thoughts!
Chestnut- not great hock confo, but that could look better as its gets older and stronger behind. Would expect it to have a lot more jump in canter and better hock action once those side reins had been taken off. Was impressed that it was balanced enough to softly change legs onto the the correct leg in canter after it had struck off wrong initially- great sign IMO!  I get the feeling that it could be a really trainable easy horse, with a good temperment, and that it would be willing to work well for you. His paces are very soft and he's light on his feet. I'd be willing to take a punt on him. He'd move up the grades quite quickly.

The bay- firstly, alarm bells ringing that something like this has ended up in such amateur hands. There must a story there behind this! proceed with caution!
Would expect his paces and way of going to be completly different with a much better rider. He needs a hell of a lot of work to undo all the damage done to him by this yard. Yes he could definately be smart tho, but I would do some carefull digging about his history.


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (20 December 2010)

neither, chesnut is very long and very average.

bay has an awful mouth already and a horribly earth bound canter.

walk away.


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## lynds81 (20 December 2010)

I think it would depend on the feel the bay gives when you sit on him, and how he moves when loose, but I wouldn't buy the chestnut - doesn't have great hindleg conformation and doesn't have the "look at me" factor of the bay. I like the bay horse


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## tweedette (20 December 2010)

I agree neither, would pass them both no matter what money they were. I like to see youngsters loose and also a walk is a must!! still none are good enough in my opinion - dont rush!! there will be plenty out there come jan/feb - its a buyers market.


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## dressager (20 December 2010)

I am a firm believer that dressage is all about training and I'm sure both horses in a few years from now would look very different. For your budget you would be very lucky to find a big extravagant mover, and if anything, you could have more problems training a horse like that than one with more managable, ridable paces.

But I already do not like the way the bay is being ridden and it is soooo important to start a young horse correctly. I would rather buy a cheaper unbroken horse and send it to a professional than buy a horse that was being ridden in that manner.

Both have very average paces with little hindleg action, but with good training this could be improved. The chestnut does not have the best hocks and this could really affect its ability to sit when you ask for collection. 

I am sure you can find better horses for that budget, but it really depends how far you want to go and what you want to achieve. A less talented horse with a fantastic temperament can still be fantastic for an amateur.


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## mystiandsunny (20 December 2010)

I got a better mover for MUCH less, and I was only looking to start out in dressage with a decent youngster, who will hopefully be competing next spring.  Mine was cheap 'cause she was 'too much' for her owner - she's not crazy, just sensitive!  Neither of those are 'wow', and in this climate, you should be able to get that for your budget.


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## angelish (20 December 2010)

dressager said:



			I am a firm believer that dressage is all about training and I'm sure both horses in a few years from now would look very different. For your budget you would be very lucky to find a big extravagant mover, and if anything, you could have more problems training a horse like that than one with more managable, ridable paces.

But I already do not like the way the bay is being ridden and it is soooo important to start a young horse correctly. I would rather buy a cheaper unbroken horse and send it to a professional than buy a horse that was being ridden in that manner.

Both have very average paces with little hindleg action, but with good training this could be improved. The chestnut does not have the best hocks and this could really affect its ability to sit when you ask for collection. 

I am sure you can find better horses for that budget, but it really depends how far you want to go and what you want to achieve. A less talented horse with a fantastic temperament can still be fantastic for an amateur.
		
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i'm no dressage diva  but this makes a whole load of sense to me


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## shell2 (20 December 2010)

For me it would be the chestnut, it is slightly straight in the hind leg but more of a blank canvas.

The bay has got the look at me factor but it looks like it may have been ridden in draw reins quite a bit.


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## cptrayes (20 December 2010)

Perhaps I need to point out that although I am not paid to ride I am far from a normal amateur. I have no intention of getting anyone else to make the horse for me, it will be mine to make. I particularly want the kind of movement that true amateurs don't buy because they do not think that they will be able to sit it. For me, that's fun, as is the sharpness that usually comes along with presence.

I'm intrigued that people reckon I can find better horses from for the price. I have been looking everywhere online, and aside from one three year old that the owner declines to show me, I have not seen better videos for the price I have available (or indeed up to £15,000), nor have I seen better moving horses at a major dealer I went to in person, though they were all £15k or more. Please point them out to me if you know where they are. My spec is  - Nothing over 7 or under 3 (born 2007). Nothing that has already competed with points, I want my money to pay for the basic quality, not someone else's training. Nothing grey unless currently black. Nothing that will mature less than 16.3hh/170cm. Within 3 hours travel of Manchester because further than that I can get to Holland and Germany more easily, see 20 at a clearing centre or production-line stud,  and bypass the profit-taker in this country.

I will see the bay in the flesh tomorrow and be looking hard at the issues you have identified, thanks everyone.


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## SusieT (20 December 2010)

I would query why if you are such above the average person you a)need the advice of forum people you have never met
b)seem to have missed/not been as aware of the faults that said forum members (of varying experience) have pointed out.


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## hrhmika (20 December 2010)

How about this, not sure on money but probably best of all worlds??? still quite young and showing potential still.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eet-Vbg-YJ4


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## cptrayes (20 December 2010)

Oh what a stupid post SusieT. Just because I know that I am not an average amateur rider does not mean that I do not appreciate other people's advice. I asked people which of the two they would choose of two horses that I am interested in viewing within my price range. I very much appreciate the answers that people with more sense than you seem to have spent their time giving me.


ps I found an  interesting comment by you on another thread "Or perhaps some other posters need to wind their necks in and stop trying to post bitchy remarks"


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## cptrayes (20 December 2010)

hrhmika - oh in my dreams!!!   

(though I would want to work on the fact that his hind leg action does not match his front leg action in medium and extended trot!)


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## DarkHorseB (20 December 2010)

I don't quite fit the serious dressage riders request but I much prefer the bay. Chestnut does not do it for me at all - did not have the wow factor at all and did not think the confirmation looked great in that shot at the beginning.
Bay definitely could have the wow factor but a lot to put right first. Would be interesting to feel what he felt like to ride. Also a couple of times I did think looked very stiff in hocks so would want that thorughly vetted. Hard to tell though as he is currently being forced into a way of going he's not ready for.


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## toomanyhorses26 (21 December 2010)

http://www.oldencraig.com/g_page.php?pageid=55&Pagetitle=Horses+for+sale+page+1

What about be cool on this page - think its probably over 3 hrs though from you.


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## SirenaXVI (21 December 2010)

The chestnut looks a little 'flat' in his paces, with that breeding I would expect more extravagance tbh.  Really don't like his hindleg.

The bay is flashy, but he is being really badly ridden and with a lot of hand, he looks bridle lame at times, I would really like to see him ridden by a rider who relies less on her hands before I made a decision.


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## georgiegirl (21 December 2010)

How about buying something thats 3, has the breeding/super flashy movement and then breaking it in yourself - you will definately get that for your budget!!!


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## cptrayes (21 December 2010)

Just off to see him this morning, thanks for the extra comments. One of my faults is inconsistent contact, so we may be a very poor match! We'll see.

I think both are very backward because they are so big, but I want the size, so I may have to accept less extravagant action for now and hope what I buy will grow into it with time.


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## georgiegirl (21 December 2010)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6r9wKrzmeYs&feature=player_embedded

there you are.... nicely bred big moving youngster 3yo - on the market for 6k on horsequest - much nicer and hasnt been faffed about with!


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## mik (21 December 2010)

cptrayes said:



			Just off to see him this morning, thanks for the extra comments. One of my faults is inconsistent contact, so we may be a very poor match! We'll see.

I think both are very backward because they are so big, but I want the size, so I may have to accept less extravagant action for now and hope what I buy will grow into it with time.
		
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I agree they are both babies and you may need to start again, but that is possible. I agree the chestnuts hocks are not the greatest and as he is broken, you need to sit on the bay, you always need to sit on, I think, to really know.

Good luck, if they don't suit have a look at the woodlander stud youngsters, I expect they are too expensive, but they have some super horses. Hope to hear how you got on!


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## mik (21 December 2010)

georgiegirl said:



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6r9wKrzmeYs&feature=player_embedded

there you are.... nicely bred big moving youngster 3yo - on the market for 6k on horsequest - much nicer and hasnt been faffed about with!
		
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Nice..........


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## Passage... (21 December 2010)

georgiegirl said:



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6r9wKrzmeYs&feature=player_embedded

there you are.... nicely bred big moving youngster 3yo - on the market for 6k on horsequest - much nicer and hasnt been faffed about with!
		
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Very nice


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## icestationzebra (21 December 2010)

Out of the two I prefer the chestnut.  He is very very weak and if produced correctly (without having his head strapped down and lunged on a 15m circle!) I think the paces will come.  He's no Alf, but he is sweet and seems biddable.  

I'm afraid though I feel that both of these horses have been/are being spoilt due to having their heads pulled in when they are big and weak.  They need to learn to go forward, find their balance and build their muscles - then the movement will improve.  Quite sad really


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## ScarlettLady (21 December 2010)

georgiegirl said:



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6r9wKrzmeYs&feature=player_embedded

there you are.... nicely bred big moving youngster 3yo - on the market for 6k on horsequest - much nicer and hasnt been faffed about with!
		
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Much better hind leg action!! very nice, looks like lots of personality too


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## ihatework (21 December 2010)

georgiegirl said:



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6r9wKrzmeYs&feature=player_embedded

there you are.... nicely bred big moving youngster 3yo - on the market for 6k on horsequest - much nicer and hasnt been faffed about with!
		
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That is one to be viewing ....


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## MissMincePie&Brandy (21 December 2010)

cptrayes said:



			I'm intrigued that people reckon I can find better horses from for the price.QUOTE]

It is possible. I just have. You can buy a heck of a lot with £6k if you work hard to find it 
If you are viewing horses at dressage yards, then of course they will be priced accordingly, but by looking for privately owned youngsters, in my experience, you can get more horse for your money. Try letting all of your trainers know you're in the market, and if you're going out to competitions, just chat to people and let them know your looking. Wanted ads worked well for me too. Word of mouth is how the best deals are done though I think!  Also, keep an eye on all the websites, twice a day, as if something good comes up, you'll need to be first to view.
My 5yr old kwpn was not advertised as being dressage potential, but I was first to view, and was blown away by the movement, he has a very active hindleg and is naturally very uphill, and he is also very level headed and loves to work and learn. 

keep looking, you'll get there! It took me nearly 4 months of hard graft before I finally found the one.
		
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## dressager (21 December 2010)

georgiegirl said:



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6r9wKrzmeYs&feature=player_embedded

there you are.... nicely bred big moving youngster 3yo - on the market for 6k on horsequest - much nicer and hasnt been faffed about with!
		
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Much nicer this horse. I really like the off the floor canter. Again it depends what kind of rider you'd put on it, one who will allow the ridden paces to develop into what we see there being free schooled, or one who will ride it like the other bay and lose that lovely looseness and spring.


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## mystiandsunny (21 December 2010)

^^^^^^^

I agree the one in that youtube link is v nice.  I bought similar (but much smaller) for under 1k (owner had paid much more as a foal, but hadn't bargained on the sharpness that comes with the breeding!).


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## charlie76 (21 December 2010)

The bay on horsemart is much nicer. I would not touch the dark bay, I bought 2 horses that had been ridden/backed in this manner( ie draw reins) and is had taken me over 2 years  to get any kind of improvement out of them, one refused to take the contact out and forward and the other to this day stands up whenever you try to put him to an equal contact, he also took a long long time to develop any balance esp in the canter.


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## Luci07 (21 December 2010)

cptrayes said:



			Oh what a stupid post SusieT. Just because I know that I am not an average amateur rider does not mean that I do not appreciate other people's advice. I asked people which of the two they would choose of two horses that I am interested in viewing within my price range. I very much appreciate the answers that people with more sense than you seem to have spent their time giving me.


ps I found an  interesting comment by you on another thread "Or perhaps some other posters need to wind their necks in and stop trying to post bitchy remarks"
		
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Agreed - I thought the different views from people who clearly do know what they are talking about was very interesting. And even though I have horse hunted many times, I do know it is very easy to get carried away when a bit of cold common sense would make you look harder! 

I did like the bay, but funnily enough was telling myself NOT to be swayed because he does have "look at me" and is pretty. I absolutely agree with the comments about the contact but also (which isn't an issue for you) - looking at how the rider sat, this is clearly a very big moving horse already so might be quite hard to sit.

Anyway, I for one, am very much looking forward to hearing OP's comments having seen the horse in the flesh..


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## diggerbez (21 December 2010)

QR- i don't really like either that much...not if you have a 10k ish budget anyway- i think that you could get a lot more for your money. i honestly don't think that you need to pay mega money- i would rather buy a 3 year old out of the field that moved nicely loose and do everything myself with it- will cost a lot less and won't have any bad habits...


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## Smile_and_Wave (21 December 2010)

neither really impress me but SS sports horses (bay) have usually got some nice stock if they have others to look at 

Try little tree dressage they have a very nice Johnson mare although a bit smaller than your probably looking


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## K27 (21 December 2010)

I think the chestnut is a lovely looking horse and very light on its feet- although only a real baby, the hind leg action is not naturally active enough for me -although bearing in mind there is so much you can do to improve the trot at a later stage, so I wouldn't be overly concerned.

The bay is a lot stronger in his frame as he is older, and he is a "look at me" sort of horse who would stand out and has  naturally nice big active paces- yes there are contact issues and he's over round/behind the vertical and he just needs to stretch out in more of a baby/prelim type frame, I wouldn't be worried though as can be improved, will just take a bit of works that's all.

If I had to choose 1 out of the 2 if I were looking for a serious prospect I'd choose the bay I think because he's naturally active, but, I would have a look at the chestnut as you have to see through what you see in front of you when looking at a baby!


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## Tempi (21 December 2010)

georgiegirl said:



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6r9wKrzmeYs&feature=player_embedded

there you are.... nicely bred big moving youngster 3yo - on the market for 6k on horsequest - much nicer and hasnt been faffed about with!
		
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Lovely horse! I would definitely be viewing that one, totally un spoilt and a super mover with a very good motoring hind leg.

Neither of the ones you have posted i would give a second look at.  The chestnut looks almost cow hocked to me and the movement is nothing special.  The bay has been ruined already, his head is held in so tight that regardless of the contact issues you are going to get a horse that has been trained to be over bent.  Having had one of these myself they are a nightmare to train to carry themselves properly, regardless of the fact that its still young.  If a young horse isnt trained correctly from the start it is far harder to correct.  I wouldnt even pay 4k for either of those i am afraid.


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## georgiegirl (21 December 2010)

Id be viewing the one I found on youtube/horsequest myself if a) I had room and time for another and b) if I had the money.

I would much much much rather pay the 6k mark for that one than be pushing the 10-15k some of these other people want and have already been started. Getting a horse trotting round looking pretty is VERY easy. Doing it properly, not so much.

Save your pennies, have less risk and go view the other fella ;-)


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## georgiegirl (21 December 2010)

http://www.youtube.com/user/JLDIXONUK#p/u/5/4Muc0awrvaY

another video of said horse in the early days.......

drool..........


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## ihatework (21 December 2010)

georgiegirl said:



			Id be viewing the one I found on youtube/horsequest myself if a) I had room and time for another and b) if I had the money.




			I have to say I'm very tempted by him too! Unfortunately my sensible head has kicked in and the main reason I haven't called is because he would probably be slightly too much horse / too good for me.
		
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## wench (21 December 2010)

What about a nice tb? Cheap and you can get some really cracking ones!


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## anuvb (21 December 2010)

How did the viewing go?  For it it's worth I think they both look too stiff in the back for me - and I think you will be spending time getting them to loosen up before you see any improvement in the contact or their paces.  

I agreed with Misinterpreted though - keep looking.  I bought a lovely 5 year old a year ago when prices were slightly higher for aprrox £5k.  He needed a fair amount of work and in some ways restarting again, but the horses are out there if you keep an open mind.  

The only thing I would say is that because the market is so awful at the moment that people are overpricing their dross.  If you don't want to take on a completely unbacked youngster also try looking at those not advertised as dressage horses - you'll pick something much cheaper - and often - better started than many of the so-called 'dressage' horses which are IMHO often pulled in, ridden tensely by dealers to get a quick turnaround.  As soon as you stick the dressage tag on people up their prices by £3k-5k but because the WB studbooks are so open many with good SJ/even lines have dressage lines in them somewhere and can make super dressage horses too.


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## princess_skills (21 December 2010)

I dont really think either are that special.  The Chestnut looks forced and the bay isnt ridden very well. 

Out of the 2 I would opt for the bay as it is more striking looking which always helps


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## Halfstep (21 December 2010)

Just a quickie: I've been to see the chestnut, and wasn't impressed. He has a bad twist in a front leg that you can't see on the video, and is close behind. 

Bay, too tricky in the contact, that is hard to fix, why buy someone else's problem.....


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## mik (21 December 2010)

So ture, and there are a lot of youngsters on the market now, case of biding your time?


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## MillionDollar (21 December 2010)

Wow, he is really really lovely. Looks like he has a nice nature too and he's done a bit in-hand


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## cptrayes (21 December 2010)

georgiegirl said:



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6r9wKrzmeYs&feature=player_embedded

there you are.... nicely bred big moving youngster 3yo - on the market for 6k on horsequest - much nicer and hasnt been faffed about with!
		
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The owner will not show me this horse because I put a thread on here asking about the temperament of Krack C offspring. She did tell me though that he has been sold twice and both sales fell through, which is why he is now so cheap.


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## cptrayes (21 December 2010)

Very intrigued by people's reactions to the Krack C colt (now a gelding). I would have gone to see it if she had let me, but I would also make HUGE allowances for the fact that it is, in the video, an over-excited entire running up and down the fence line showing off to a bunch of brood mares and foals. Look at the tail!  Most horses will produce a fairly spectacular passage in that situation, making their owners wonder why they move like the milkman's pony when they do a Riding Club Prelim


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## Oscar (21 December 2010)

Sooooooooo?!!!!!!!!!! How did you get on?

My friend is a GP dressage rider, PM if you are still looking and she will find you something - she has a business partner in Germany.


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## noname (21 December 2010)

I wouldn't bother with the 3rd one either. Its hind legs are much higher than the front end which will make training so much harder longer term. Yes it moves ok but the chesnut looked more trainable and neither looked like world beaters. You could be suprised how much the movement improves with training. You need a good walk and a good canter where the hindleg comes well under.  The paces need to be regular rather than flashy (as that comes with training). The Front end must be higher than the back end and the horse must suit you. A good 4 beat work is very important. Big walks are more difficult to train in the collected work but get good extended marks.


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## ofcourseyoucan (21 December 2010)

if you want to view the Krack C one then you need to be clever. get someone else to phone and get the info and arrange to view, and go along for the ride so to speak. view together and get OP to bid if you fancy. would wonder why a sale has fell through twice? did he pass the vet? As for the original 2 the chs was restricted and everytime you thought he was going to go big trot he just broke to canter, weak backend didnt like the way his tail sat or hind leg movement or lack of. bay would be a lot of work i would like to see how he worked long and low (after the explosion i guess!!) when someone isnt carrying him around, drops behind the bit a lot and movement looks a little mincy to me. the chs i feel will be average but trainable, the bay will take a lot to settle through his head and neck and has already learnt to evade very successfully. but they are someones special babies and both will be useful in time. for the budget i am sure you could find better.. i have a hunter with more movement than the chs with no dumblood to be found in his breeding (tho a bit of welsh d!!!!) and he is big!


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## tweedette (21 December 2010)

Is it essentail to have someone 'wind ' these horses up - can none of them be seen relaxed and walking about freely, or is it the done thing to have the poor sould wound up to the hilt - hey , its flashy but shows nothing really. Even I could move if someo was chasing me.............. well, sort of anyway


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## mbequest (21 December 2010)

ofcourseyoucan said:



			if you want to view the Krack C one then you need to be clever. get someone else to phone and get the info and arrange to view, and go along for the ride so to speak. view together and get OP to bid if you fancy.
		
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I completely disagree with this, there is more to this than meets the eye. If she wont show it because you enquired about Krack C temperament etc then she doesnt deserve your money.

The effort should be on the seller not the buyer!! IMO anyway.

Why not trying a few jumping yards that have youngstock? They might not good enough over a fence but be smart movers. I have sold a couple like this and one went on to win at the nationals and the other two both qualified for the nationals.  It comes down to training. 

Usually, if they are  not good enough over a fence then they wont be too expensive. One of the ones I sold was only 3500, went to nationals 12 months later and was sold for £30k........


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## dressager (21 December 2010)

cptrayes said:



			I would also make HUGE allowances for the fact that it is, in the video, an over-excited entire running up and down the fence line showing off to a bunch of brood mares and foals. Look at the tail!  Most horses will produce a fairly spectacular passage in that situation, making their owners wonder why they move like the milkman's pony when they do a Riding Club Prelim 

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Do you not believe that correct training can utilise the horse's natural paces then, or do you think that spectacular passage could never be achieved when ridden? Would you only buy a horse based on having watched a rider on board then? Not criticising, just interested to hear your opinions


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## cptrayes (21 December 2010)

I would have wanted to see the horse as a gelding, without being hyped up, and see what his true natural paces are, not when he is an over-excited stallion near mares.. I did want to see him. She will not show me him, and that raises so many doubts that I no longer want to see him.


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## georgiegirl (21 December 2010)

hmmm very odd they didnt want you too see him? maybe worth calling in a different guise and seeing if you get a different response? it is very strange though.....

I hardly doubt now its been gelded it moves 'like the milkmans pony'

Maybe height will have to be compromised on in order to find the right one? Do you really NEED one so big? (not meaning to sound patronising - I've no idea how tall you are!!!)

anyway.... I trawl the for sale sites (not because im after one, more than happy with my two) simply because I'm a geek and dont like the crap on the telly so if I see something I'll point it your way!


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## siennamum (21 December 2010)

The Peternells breed quality horses. My friend bought a really stunning, large, homebred 4 year old from them. Might be too far for you, might not have anything, but might be worth enquiring:
www.dressagehinton.com


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## georgiegirl (21 December 2010)

I disagree with the fact though that the effort should be with the seller and not the buyer though! Anyone is entitled to pick and choose who comes to view and ride their horses in my opinion. I rather embarassingly have told someone to get off a horse of mine they were trying before.

disclaimer: this is no slight on the original poster by the way - the sellers of this horse in particular might just be funny buggers! (theres a lot of them about!)


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## mbequest (21 December 2010)

I do agree Georgie, and have myself told people that horses arent right for them, and asked them to get off. I am saying that you cannot make that judgement until you have seen the person, in person and made your decisions about their suitability to the horse.


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## georgiegirl (21 December 2010)

Completely agree.....

We've had people phone up before and from speaking to them I've had reservations about but have been lovely competant people when you meet them.

OP - I didnt know you had called this horse - did they tell you why you couldnt go and see it?


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## cptrayes (21 December 2010)

They will not show it to me because I posted a thread on here - it's still, here and you can read it, asking about the temperament of Krack C (I spelt it Crack C) offspring because I had heard that they could be difficult and I did not want to buy an unbroken horse to find it difficult to back. She said that as a matter of policy she will not sell to anyone who regularly posts on a forum. She confirmed this on the thread, although I had not, and would not have, indentified the horse as hers.

In answer to the person who said do I NEED such a big horse. No. But I WANT one. I love riding big horses. And this is an awful lot of money for me to spend on a present for myself, and I won't spend it if I can't get what I want for it.

In answer to the person suggesting Woodlanders - they weren't anywhere near my budget before Woodlander Farouche won the National 4 and 5 year old  potential dressage horse Championships, never mind now. If I could raise £250,000 and buy Farouche, I'd even forgive her being a chestnut mare


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## georgiegirl (21 December 2010)

its very bizarre she said she wont sell to someone who posts on a forum? Your only doing research on temprements which is what most responsible people should do!


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## shell2 (21 December 2010)

Hi I dont know if you have ever looked at any horses by the stallion Monte Carlo (freckleton stud), but I know a few people who have bought youngstock from them that have gone on to very well in the show ring and in the dressage ring. 
Don't know what they have available but may be worth a look


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## Hels_Bells (21 December 2010)

I'm not a "serious" dressage person but do take my eventing quite seriously.  I haven't read any of the other responses cos I think it's important not to get corrupted by other people's thoughts on confirmation but...

The chestnut seems pretty outwardly pigeon-toed in the 360 degree view before it started lunging which would be a total no-no to me as it would probably cause problems later on if you wanted to do higher level stuff.

The black/dark bay (a bit colour blind!) was a lovely looking horse but I don't get a good feeling about it for some reason.  I think it's meant to "look" serious, but there's something not 100% right with it which I can't put my finger on.  Seems quite over-produced for a horse of it's age perhaps??

***trundles back to start of post to see what everyone else thought (all 8 pages)!!***


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## coreteam1 (21 December 2010)

cptrayes said:



			They will not show it to me because I posted a thread on here - it's still, here and you can read it, asking about the temperament of Krack C (I spelt it Crack C) offspring because I had heard that they could be difficult and I did not want to buy an unbroken horse to find it difficult to back. She said that as a matter of policy she will not sell to anyone who regularly posts on a forum. She confirmed this on the thread, although I had not, and would not have, indentified the horse as hers.
		
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A friend of mine has a Krack C Mare and she is fab.  Never put a foot wrong and competing at a high level


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## Hels_Bells (21 December 2010)

***Have now read full thread***  Keen to know how you got on with the bay.

I wouldn't touch the Krack C with a barge pole just on the way the owner is behaving - stinks to high heaven IMO!!!


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## Herpesas (21 December 2010)

The chestnut seems to have a nice trainable temperament but looks a bit dull.  His tail is set a little low for my liking and he isn't very expressive, although this could come with age, confidence and sensitive training.

The bay does have contact issues but it could be something as simple as incorrect bitting.  Mine would do the same with a single joint bit in his mouth - he just doesn't like the action.  I wouldn't write him off.

Both seem a little stiff in the back leg and neither has much power there but, again, that will probably come with age.

I would go for the bay but be prepared to spend time taking him back to basics bitting-wise.


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## diggerbez (21 December 2010)

Hels_Bells said:



			***Have now read full thread***  Keen to know how you got on with the bay.

I wouldn't touch the Krack C with a barge pole just on the way the owner is behaving - stinks to high heaven IMO!!!
		
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ditto this! she sounds like a right loony!


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## bigboyrocky (22 December 2010)

diggerbez said:



			ditto this! she sounds like a right loony! 

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my first thought to her reaction was that it might be because if something went wrong in the sale, then she might get made publically known for it?


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## diggerbez (22 December 2010)

bigboyrocky said:



			my first thought to her reaction was that it might be because if something went wrong in the sale, then she might get made publically known for it?
		
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i know but what a stupid thing to say (the seller, not you BBR!)- loads of people go on forums- you wouldn't possibly be able to police this as a vendor...surely??


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## Hels_Bells (22 December 2010)

diggerbez said:



			i know but what a stupid thing to say (the seller, not you BBR!)- loads of people go on forums- you wouldn't possibly be able to police this as a vendor...surely?? 

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Well, frankly if she's worried about that sort of thing she's clearly got something to hide...  It wouldn't bother me if I was selling a great little horse in a genuine manner, probably quite the opposite??


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## DarkHorseB (22 December 2010)

cptrayes said:



			They will not show it to me because I posted a thread on here - it's still, here and you can read it, asking about the temperament of Krack C (I spelt it Crack C) offspring because I had heard that they could be difficult and I did not want to buy an unbroken horse to find it difficult to back. She said that as a matter of policy she will not sell to anyone who regularly posts on a forum. She confirmed this on the thread, although I had not, and would not have, indentified the horse as hers.

In answer to the person who said do I NEED such a big horse. No. But I WANT one. I love riding big horses. And this is an awful lot of money for me to spend on a present for myself, and I won't spend it if I can't get what I want for it.

In answer to the person suggesting Woodlanders - they weren't anywhere near my budget before Woodlander Farouche won the National 4 and 5 year old  potential dressage horse Championships, never mind now. If I could raise £250,000 and buy Farouche, I'd even forgive her being a chestnut mare 

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Did you get to see the first bay then? Sorry if I have missed the update. What did you think?


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## MadisonBelle (22 December 2010)

DarkHorseB said:



			Did you get to see the first bay then? Sorry if I have missed the update. What did you think?
		
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Ditto this ^^^^^


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## cptrayes (23 December 2010)

I have bought the bay gelding. In the flesh he is superb, with a beautiful frame, and a heck of a lot more to come yet as he matures.

His mouth issues were resolved by the removal of his wolf teeth and he is completely unspoilt, a total blank slate.

He has a comprehensive set of clean x-rays.

His temperament is absolutely exceptional, both at home and away from home in a strange place.

His paces are to die for, rythmic, balanced, straight. 

He was assessed, after five weeks under saddle, by a WEG/Olympic dressage judge, who says that for a horse with that level of training, his hind leg placement is exceptional, correct every time and that he is certainly Small Tour material and quite possibly higher than that.

This is his father, and he is very, very like him:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eXSl-jEGGH0&feature=related

I did not post before because I didn't want anyone else to know that he was as good as he is until I had sealed the deal. I'm a very happy, and lucky, bunny


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## DarkHorseB (23 December 2010)

Fabulous news! Wondered if that was why you went quiet!
I did much prefer him over the chestnut and do think he definitely will have the wow factor  but then I am a sucker for a dark bay 
Do keep us posted as to your progress!


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## carthorse (23 December 2010)

Look forward to following his future progress


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## georgiegirl (23 December 2010)

glad you got sorted in the end - great stuff!


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## jessamess (23 December 2010)

Wow what a lucky person you are he is GORGEOUS!!! And the dad YUM!!! 

Please keep us updated with lots of pictures and video!!! 

xxxx


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## _jetset_ (23 December 2010)

Glad to hear you bought him... I have been waiting for an update!!!


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## Bryndu (23 December 2010)

Congratulations
Glad you went to see him in person and may that be a lesson to all of us that the camera CAN sometimes lie.
Best of luck
Bryndu


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## mik (23 December 2010)

excellent news. Well done, and happy xmas, what a present!
Ps: I too would forgive Farouche for being a chestnut mare!!!!


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## fharvey (23 December 2010)

good luck!


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## seabsicuit2 (24 December 2010)

Fantastic news on your new horse, we thought he would be rather super!



cptrayes said:



			He was assessed, after five weeks under saddle, by a WEG/Olympic dressage judge, who says that for a horse with that level of training, his hind leg placement is exceptional, correct every time and that he is certainly Small Tour material and quite possibly higher than that.
		
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And this is very exciting!!


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## houndsplease (24 December 2010)

bay didnt look right behind to me and the chestnuts confo was poor.


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## Festive_Felicitations (24 December 2010)

OOH lovely! He was stunning and I'm glad to hear that the erm... 'issues' ... could be sorted out so easily!

I hope you have lots of fun with him and if he turns out anything like his dad - WOW! 
Merry Christmas!


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## posie_honey (24 December 2010)

i'd not commented on the first question as i'm by no means a dressage person - let alone a serious one - so was just reading with interest - but great news about the bay! and great that you found out the bitting/mputhing problem etc. 
many congrats - we're wanting updates on him now though don't you know?


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## kyanya (24 December 2010)

What an interesting thread, I'm no dressage expert but really enjoy comparing my opinions to those of more experienced peoples.

Congratulations OP on your purchase, a fantastic Christmas pressie to yourself. I look forward to updates on his progress


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## Hels_Bells (24 December 2010)

kyanya said:



			What an interesting thread, I'm no dressage expert but really enjoy comparing my opinions to those of more experienced peoples.
		
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I second this and also to say

CONGRATULATIONS!!  His dad looks amazing and he is stunning so I think you have an exciting future ahead the two of you!

Happy Christmas!!!


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## georgiegirl (24 December 2010)

As long as the bays contact issues (head bobbing etc) are not really a massive problem then congratulations he is a stunner and has an awful lot of potential.

I must say though, Im not massively keen on his dads neck!

Will look forward to hearing and seeing updates about him! good luck!


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## measles (24 December 2010)

Fantastic news!   Have lots of fun with him and let us know how you are getting on.


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## diggerbez (24 December 2010)

oooh exciting...pony for xmas  good luck with him


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## Luci07 (24 December 2010)

He's lovely with a real look at me..and you lot who are still offering critisism... deal is done - hes a bought pony so don't play so nastily! He is now a "pride and joy".

I very much look forward to hearing how he progresses and I also enjoyed the commentary and "look out fors" from other posters too (prior to his sale!)


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## FrodoBeutlin (24 December 2010)

A Riccione!! Well done!! He is a popular stallion in Germany, his offspring seem to have a temperament to die for!! We had a Riccione at the yard until recently, he was a lovely horse, extremely rideable and super easy to do.

I could not comment before on the videos as I was in Germany and I could not see the first one (copyright issues with youtube from a German IP address! Always happens :/ ) and I did not like the chestnut, whose video I could see, at all.

But I have now seen the bay and think he is stunning -- lovely, expressive paces, and as for the contact issues, if he has been recently backed they are to be expected! I really doubt that all the HHO horses immediately went in a textbook contact the second they were backed .......


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## cptrayes (24 December 2010)

FrodoB he does seem to me to have the most exceptional temperament. He is quiet and gentle, but outgoing and very interested in life.  His mouth issues are totally resolved, I have video of both her and me on him (not at the same time  ) and he is naturally poll high, slightly in front of the verticle, and absolutely steady in both his mouth and head carriage. His wolf teeth were apparently huge.

Thankyou to everyone who was unqualified in wishing us luck. Merry Christmas everyone!


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## kezimac (24 December 2010)

cptrayes said:



			I have bought the bay gelding. In the flesh he is superb, with a beautiful frame, and a heck of a lot more to come yet as he matures.

His mouth issues were resolved by the removal of his wolf teeth and he is completely unspoilt, a total blank slate.

He has a comprehensive set of clean x-rays.

His temperament is absolutely exceptional, both at home and away from home in a strange place.

His paces are to die for, rythmic, balanced, straight. 

He was assessed, after five weeks under saddle, by a WEG/Olympic dressage judge, who says that for a horse with that level of training, his hind leg placement is exceptional, correct every time and that he is certainly Small Tour material and quite possibly higher than that.

This is his father, and he is very, very like him:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eXSl-jEGGH0&feature=related

I did not post before because I didn't want anyone else to know that he was as good as he is until I had sealed the deal. I'm a very happy, and lucky, bunny 

Click to expand...


well done  good luck when you getting him


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## soupdragon71 (24 December 2010)

becca_norrey said:



			Much better hind leg action!! very nice, looks like lots of personality too 

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Agree on the personality! Was surprised that the 2 the OP was asking about looked a bid dead, as in no personality. At their ages there should be a bit of life to them - look a bit world weary to me. Also agree about all the other issues re use of draw reins/side reins/being strapped in.


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## cptrayes (25 December 2010)

The OP bought one of the dead ones soupdragon. He seemed very alive to me 

Merry Christmas everyone, no-one is happier with what Santa brought today than I am!


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## foxy1 (25 December 2010)

I wish Santa would buy me a horse like that

You are very lucky OP!


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## soupdragon71 (26 December 2010)

cptrayes said:



			I would have wanted to see the horse as a gelding, without being hyped up, and see what his true natural paces are, not when he is an over-excited stallion near mares.. I did want to see him. She will not show me him, and that raises so many doubts that I no longer want to see him.
		
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That's very interesting, and telling, I think. Did not realise he was an entire when that video was taken. Maybe should have paid more attention!! 

Glad to hear that the bay had a problem with teeth (in the best way, in that you have a problem that you can put finger on and get sorted). He was definetely the better of the 2 and explains so much as to why he was evading the contact and being a bit quiet (some will react to pain in an explosive way and others will revert into themselves).  I'm sure he will be lovely once you get him going and he understands that a bit doesn't mean pain.

Hope you have a fab time with him - nice Xmas present! Got one last year and he has been an absolute star - hope you have as much fun as I have had.


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## cptrayes (26 December 2010)

Thanks Soupdragon, we'll be trying hard to enjoy ourselves!

Partly Ace (what a nice name, eh??  ) is quiet because he has such a delightful personality. Partly because he is very unfit. And partly because "your average buyer"  wants to see horses that they think will be safe on, and dealers don't generally overfeed their horses for that reason. I'm not saying he was short of food, far from it, he looks well, but he is only being fed haylage and no corn. If I want spark, I know where to find it - at my feed merchant or on Tesco's cooking oil display!


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## TableDancer (26 December 2010)

Congratulations, C, I'm afraid I haven't waded through all the replies or even *whispers* watched the vids  but read the first page and the last and I'm delighted you have secured a horse who sounds fab and who you adore


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## angelish (26 December 2010)

fab xmas pressi 
congratulations hope you have lots of fun with him


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## GlamourDol (26 January 2011)

Didnt read entire post so my post was not necessary. Cant get it to delete whole thing tho.


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