# Legal requirements for Muck heaps??



## Crazy Friesian (30 July 2013)

After some advice please guys..

I have recently been told by my land lord that I am going to have to do something with my muck heap. Currently it is enclosed by sleepers on a hardcore base. It has been there for years. But this year Single Farm Payment peeps have been by and said that it is going to have to be moved or bunded.

So my question is - what is the minimum I can get away with having to do, to be SFP legal? - I say minimum as cost is obviously going to be an issue.

I am guessing that a concrete floor is going to be mandatory...


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## Crazy Friesian (31 July 2013)

No-one has any ideas???


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## Asha (31 July 2013)

I might be wrong, but i seem to remember being told that you need a concrete floor, with drainage, so that all the wet was captured. Apparently its not meant to drain into any nearby water/streams as its deemed an enviromental issue. Hopefully someone who knows a bit more will be along


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## martlin (31 July 2013)

Unless it has a run off somewhere near a watercourse, farmyard manure (which horse muck heap is classed as) doesn't need to be contained in any particular way... as far as I know, anyway.


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## Crazy Friesian (31 July 2013)

martlin said:



			Unless it has a run off somewhere near a watercourse, farmyard manure (which horse muck heap is classed as) doesn't need to be contained in any particular way... as far as I know, anyway.
		
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You would think... Thats my dilemma - its not near a water course, private, not commercial yard etc... But apparently RPA say it is illegal and needs containing.


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## Goldenstar (31 July 2013)

Can you not get it carted away then get a muck trailer and get it dumped off the yard regularily.


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## Suelin (31 July 2013)

I had a communication regarding this from DEFRA the other day.  From memory the heap must not be left longer than 2 years in one place and has to be moved about, and obviously not near a water course etc.  I will look the thing up later and get back to you about the details.  I guess if you have 2 areas and remove the first or compost on the land you would be okay but will check it out for you.


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## martlin (31 July 2013)

Crazy Friesian said:



			You would think... Thats my dilemma - its not near a water course, private, not commercial yard etc... But apparently RPA say it is illegal and needs containing. 

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What do you do with it in general? Do you spread it on the fields or have it removed? You can heap it on the edges of paddocks to be spread in due course. 
I have to say, it is the first time I'm coming across that sort of problem, maybe the way to go is to ring them and ask what they want doing, they will give you their requirements.


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## Crazy Friesian (31 July 2013)

Goldenstar said:



			Can you not get it carted away then get a muck trailer and get it dumped off the yard regularily.
		
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1. Cost (!)
2. Practicalities
3. Thats not what the RPA want, hence my question...

Sorry - but if that was a possibility, It would be done...
The muck heap is removed every 6 -8 months.


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## Goldenstar (31 July 2013)

Well then push back at them and ask them why it's not legal.


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## jrp204 (31 July 2013)

It is classed as temporary as its on hardcore which obviously is permeable. As temporary it should not be in the same place for more than 12 consecutive months and not returned to that position for 2 yrs. If you put in a concrete base it would then be permenant. Pretty sure this is correct. I think the landowner can claim SFP on a temporary pile if it is used as part of the agricultural growing of crops but cannot claim the area of a permenant one. 
I will stand to be corrected on this though.


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## Crazy Friesian (31 July 2013)

Suelin said:



			I had a communication regarding this from DEFRA the other day.  From memory the heap *must not be left longer than 2 years in one place and has to be moved about*, and obviously not near a water course etc.  I will look the thing up later and get back to you about the details.  I guess if you have 2 areas and remove the first or compost on the land you would be okay but will check it out for you.
		
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Practically speaking - they are not talking about PHYSCALLY shifting it about - they are talking about the muck heaps that are left for YEARS and grow into mountains etc - you know the sort...

This is a well managed, neatly contained muck heap.

I have been told by my Land Lord that I need to comply with RPA's request. It is the difference between him getting his payment and not...

I am trying to find out what the minimum I can get away with to stay legal is. Other suggestions, while on the face of it are helpful - are not, sorry...

I am a private yard, keep my horses at home on Estate rented property.(They won't help with removal either even tho they have ENORMOUS ones of chicken poop littered everywhere at various times of year! I have to stay within what my LL and RPA want (tho they not specified EXACTLY what (!). I am not made of money - hence regular removal is not an option - it would have to be done by a professional (If I were to take it by the letter of the law....) and there aren't many of those around...

I have been trawling the RPA website and am not coming up with anything particularly useful.


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## Crazy Friesian (31 July 2013)

Goldenstar said:



			Well then push back at them and ask them why it's not legal.
		
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I thought about that - been trying to get hold of LL to get definitive...

Just need some practical advice - it may also be a question of  (dare I say it) an awkward LL - as well as a little RPA madness. So need to find out the bare minimum I can get away with - just in case I need to have that argument / discussion with my LL :-/


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## jrp204 (31 July 2013)

CF, is the landlord claiming your land on his SFP?


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## Goldenstar (31 July 2013)

It could be moved by any local farmer.
You just need to get them to imform you in writing what they need you to do.


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## Crazy Friesian (31 July 2013)

martlin said:



			What do you do with it in general? Do you spread it on the fields or have it removed? You can heap it on the edges of paddocks to be spread in due course. 
I have to say, it is the first time I'm coming across that sort of problem, maybe the way to go is to ring them and ask what they want doing, they will give you their requirements.
		
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The muck is spread on my fields. This is ok as they see this as organic fertiliser etc.. But the madness is that the fields ARE by a watercourse - The water off the fields doesn't actually run towards the watercourse when we have lots of rain ( :-/ ) But they are closer to the watercourse than my muck heap which is in a totally different position to the watercourse and nowhere near it to run into it! (if that makes sense...)


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## martlin (31 July 2013)

Crazy Friesian said:



			it may also be a question of  (dare I say it) an awkward LL -
		
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yes, I suspect that is the case. Claiming SFP on the land you are renting on permanent basis puts your landlord on a bit of a dodgy ground, for starters.
There are no specific requirements for FYM heaps in any of SFP handbooks... it is excluded from nitrates management rules, unlike slurry.
I smell fish.


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## Crazy Friesian (31 July 2013)

jrp204 said:



			CF, is the landlord claiming your land on his SFP?
		
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It sits within a tract of land. My house and land is literally in the middle of it. He farms the fields round it. There are a few fields he rents out for cattle grazing. I am guessing that he may well be claiming my land on his SFP then... I just don't know - he is not the easiest Land Manager to get on with.


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## ILuvCowparsely (31 July 2013)

ours is not on concrete  just mud , it gets very squidgy and pudly round it and we have it taken away.  Sorry Can't help you.


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## Sussexbythesea (31 July 2013)

Crazy Friesian said:



			The muck is spread on my fields. This is ok as they see this as organic fertiliser etc.. But the madness is that the fields ARE by a watercourse - The water off the fields doesn't actually run towards the watercourse when we have lots of rain ( :-/ ) But they are closer to the watercourse than my muck heap which is in a totally different position to the watercourse and nowhere near it to run into it! (if that makes sense...)
		
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There are still restrictions on when and in what conditions you should spread including normally not within 10 metres of a watercourse more in certain sensitive areas. If done properly any nutrients which are the polluting substances should be taken up by the crop be that grass or something else and not end up in the watercourse. A muck heap however will just leach polluting substances into the ground and eventually these can end up in the water environment be that surface or groundwaters - Hence moving it from time to time to stop the ground being saturated.


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## Crazy Friesian (31 July 2013)

martlin said:



			yes, I suspect that is the case. Claiming SFP on the land you are renting on permanent basis puts your landlord on a bit of a dodgy ground, for starters.
There are no specific requirements for FYM heaps in any of SFP handbooks... it is excluded from nitrates management rules, unlike slurry.
I smell fish.
		
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Hence why I need to try to get some facts together incase I need to argue my case...

There are many other issues which if I was of a suspicious nature, would make me think he would like to get rid of us, but has no legal ground to do so because we have kept to our tenancy agreement - he on the other hand has not... :-/

I digress...


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## jrp204 (31 July 2013)

He must be, if no SFP is being claimed on the land you can do what you want with it, unless Environment Agency get involved. Is it in your agreement that they keep the SFP?


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## Crazy Friesian (31 July 2013)

jrp204 said:



			He must be, if no SFP is being claimed on the land you can do what you want with it, unless Environment Agency get involved. Is it in your agreement that they keep the SFP?
		
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SFP is not mentioned in my tenancy agreement. The tenancy agreement covers the house, yard, orchard etc. There is a fenced paddock area (exercise) and the 4 acre field out the back. I am required to keep the area round the house tidy etc (includes the area where the muck heap is - and was agreed it would go before taking on the tenancy)


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## Goldenstar (31 July 2013)

You could be in a bit of a sticky position if this goes wrong .
It's a bit much to tell you to sort it without explaining excactly how.
He must be claiming the SFP payment on the land you rent which is a bit tough on the taxpayers of EU to be honest .


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## Crazy Friesian (31 July 2013)

Goldenstar said:



			You could be in a bit of a sticky position if this goes wrong .
It's a bit much to tell you to sort it without explaining excactly how.
He must be claiming the SFP payment on the land you rent which is a bit tough on the taxpayers of EU to be honest .
		
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Yup.... and yup..... and yup....  Ethics don't always "register"...


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## Fluffy bunny (31 July 2013)

http://rpa.defra.gov.uk/rpa/index.nsf/home. 

Does this help?


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## Fluffy bunny (31 July 2013)

http://rpa.defra.gov.uk/rpa/index.nsf/UIMenu/12EAC3896620097B802573AA00553363


Try again, I'm rubbish at this!


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## JillA (31 July 2013)

And that is exactly why I stopped claiming SFP - way too many strings attached. Doesn't help your situation though. I suspect that the rent he is getting from you far outweighs the amount he would get for that relatively small amount of land - you could take the enormous risk of letting RPA know you are renting the land from him and therefore he should have reduced his area claimed for. Or tell him you will do that - and hope he doesn't call your bluff.  Landlords - who'd have 'em!


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## honetpot (31 July 2013)

I have recently  purchased a small farm which is the land is registered with RPA, and you do not have to comply with their terms unless you are claiming SFP. I would assume he is claiming for land he is not actually managing which he should not be doing.
 If you are renting a house with acreage then your contract comes under a farm tenancy agreement, there are a couple of websites that cover this, and have a lot more rights whatever contract you have signed. I would get him to shift it for you as if the RPA find out he is over claiming depending on the % of his total claim he could lose the lot.


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## TheFarmersWife (31 July 2013)

Honetpot is spot on, he shouldn't be claiming SFP on land he rents out. 
Seperate matter is the muck heap, it shouldn't be a permanent fixture of more than 12 months. I mean there shouldn't be a temporary muck heap in the same place for more than a year. Regardless of how old the actual manure is. We have to resite our heaps regularly. If you want the heap to be in the same place year in year out you will need to make a more substantial clamp/area for it. But first I would speak to Defra to find out exactly what they want. It could have something to do with NVZ's (nitrate vulnerable zones).


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## honetpot (31 July 2013)

http://uk.practicallaw.com/books/9781845920920/chapter05  Agricultural tenancies


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## Crazy Friesian (31 July 2013)

honetpot said:



http://uk.practicallaw.com/books/9781845920920/chapter05  Agricultural tenancies
		
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Thanks all - I'll toddle off and have a look - lots to think about.

It is a private tenancy though, not an agri one... The MH sits on a hardcore area, nowhere near the fields / water courses etc... I phoned RPA and apparently they would have issued a letter, so will ask to have a look at that. Whether he will or not is another matter... :-/


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## JillA (31 July 2013)

Don't the regulations (how long it is there for example and a proper (expensive) standing) apply to businesses only?


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## Sussexbythesea (31 July 2013)

One of the Q&A's on this note explains when horse manures are subject to NVZ Rules. Famers must comply with NVZ rules regardless of whether or not they claim SFP as they are Regulations in their own right.

http://www.environment-agency.gov.uk/static/documents/Business/NVZ_QA_Version9_Sept2011.pdf

Also there is this page which may be useful.

https://www.gov.uk/keeping-horses-on-farms


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## Bobbly (31 July 2013)

Tongue firmly in cheek here, can you not wait until the SFP people complain again and point out that as you personally are not claiming SFP nor is it mentioned in your tenancy contract that you have to comply by their rules that you are unaware that you personally have to do anything? If then your landlord owns up to claiming SFP  surely it is down to him to supply a suitable site for you to store your muck as part of your tenancy agreement for keeping horses on his land which he obviously is happy to rent it for?


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## OrangePepper (31 July 2013)

You need to check if you are in a Nitrate Vunerable Zone first because if you are then your landlord should have been aware of this and advised you of this when this first came in to force (assuming that this came in to force during your tenancy).

As regards Single Area Payment then this  goes to the person farming the land not the landlord unless they are both the same person.

If you have  a formal tenancy then you become the farmer and would apply for the Single Area Payment assuming that the land is over the minimun requirement and you want to.


If the Nitrate Vunerable Zone came in to force during the course of your tenancy then the loandowner should have made you aware of it and resolved the issue of your horse manure with you.

I would therefore suggest that your landlord has been claiming Single Area Payment from the Rural Payments Agence when he should not have done so and has also failed to advise you either of an existing Nitrate Vulnerable Zone or one that has been introduced.


I would suggest a quiet and calm chat with your landlord on how to resolve the issue to everyones mutual benefit is the way to resolve this issue.  It may be that you will need to muck out directly in to a waterproof trailer and have the manure removed to an appropriate place is the solution  to this most unfortunate situation.


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## Goldenstar (31 July 2013)

JillA said:



			Don't the regulations (how long it is there for example and a proper (expensive) standing) apply to businesses only?
		
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That's my understanding.


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## Suelin (31 July 2013)

If you are in a Nitrate Vulnerable Zone, according to the leaflet sent to me, you must store solid manure in a vessel, or on an impermeable surface, or in a roofed building, or in temporary field heaps.

You must not locate temporary field heaps within 10 metres of a surface water or land drain, or within 50 metres of a spring well or borehole, or on land likely to become waterlogged, or on land likely to flood, or in a single position for more than 12 successive months, or in the same place as an earlier heap constructed within the last 2 years.

The leaflet is The Guide to Cross Compliance in England (2013 updates to GAEC 19, SMR 4 & SMR7)  Probably on the website www.gov.uk/defra or www.rpa.defra.gov.uk

There are other things discussed in the leaflet but I think what I have outlined is what is required.  I hope that this helps you.

I think it is barking but that's just me.


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