# Semen. Fresh, chilled, frozen- How long does each last?



## PapaFrita (9 December 2007)

And what are the pros and cons please?
How hard are each to 'keep'?

To cut a long story short, I've been offered frozen from a stallion I adore, but they're collecting for themselves as he's for sale and they don't have the equipment to transport it to me (I live 800km away) I could possibly get hold of fresh and go and get it and bring it back myself when PF is in season, but is this realistic or not?
I could also ship her to him, but the distances involved are discouraging and livery over there would be HIGH.
Other suggestions welcome


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## JanetGeorge (9 December 2007)

Chances of success are lousy!  Fresh it's just too far to transport - you can stick a couple of straws down your bra and travel for a couple of hours - but that's about it.  Chilled would be ok IF it was properly extended and chilled and transported in a suitable container - but even then you're talking 24 hours - 36 hours.  Frozen - unless it's SKILLFULLY handled and frozen will be less than useless.


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## AndyPandy (9 December 2007)

Haven't got time for a full reply, will do that later... but frozen is NOT useless. If the semen freezes OK and has reasonable post-thaw, then when properly managed, it can acheive pregnancy rates equal with chilled semen. You've clearly had a bad experience, but this is not the norm.

Back later.


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## AndyPandy (9 December 2007)

It's not realistic to transport "fresh" semen over 800km. Chilled would be fine for 48hours (maybe more or less depending on the stallion). 

My recommendation would be that you purchase a "Gyrotainer". It's a fantastic disposable frozen semen shipper that costs about 70GBP from IMV and its distributors. Then get them to send the frozen in this around the right time. The shipper keeps the semen at the right temp for about 7 days without any problems.

Alternatively, you can use chilled. Disposable chilled shippers retail at about 20GBP, and work very well. You'd have no problems with this, except I don't know how reliable the postal service is in Argentina. 

I am a little surprised that they're offering frozen, but don't have equipment to transport it... are they freezinig it, or has it been frozen "professionally". Find out what the post thaw progressive motility of this stallion's frozen semen is. If it's 25% or higher, then you should be OK.

Can you give us more details about your vet and their repro experience? This will also alter whether or not you go for the frozen semen. Frozen has great pregnancy rates, when it's used by vets and repro technicians that aren't numpties 
	
	
		
		
	


	





Let us know some more info


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## PapaFrita (9 December 2007)

The gyrotainer sounds just what I need. I'll look into it. 
They're not actually offering frozen semen; the owner is stockpiling (so to speak!) as the stallion is for sale. I believe they have regular couriers from Buenos Aires that the vets here in Cordoba use, so it should arrive fine.
The vet I'm using is excellent and is in fact a specialist in AI and embryo transfer so I have total faith in her. I'm going to ask her to have a chat with _their_ vet and see what they can sort out. 
Thanks for the advice; it's been very helpful and interesting


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## JanetGeorge (9 December 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
Haven't got time for a full reply, will do that later... but frozen is NOT useless. If the semen freezes OK and has reasonable post-thaw, then when properly managed, it can acheive pregnancy rates equal with chilled semen. You've clearly had a bad experience, but this is not the norm.


[/ QUOTE ]

I didn't say frozen was useless - just that it would be if not frozen properly!  OP has said the stallion owners do not normally offer frozen - but are 'stockpiling'.  For all we know that means they're whacking it in the home freezer!

I would NOT recommend that anyone use frozen UNLESS they know exactly how it has been handled and that it HAS been used successfully to produce pregnancies. Not all stallions' semen freezes well; many people who collect and freeze semen haven't a clue.

I'm perfectly happy to use frozen if I am sure of its source (I am a qualified AI technician) but a hell of a lot of frozen semen IS useless.  And even the best frozen semen does NOT acheive pregnancy rates equal with chilled semen.


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## PapaFrita (9 December 2007)

Oh, I'm pretty sure they're doing it properly- this is a very valuable stallion and I'm leaving the whole inseminating business to my vet and their vet... assuming any of this comes to fruition.
Can I ask why some frozen semen would be useless? I mean, what would make it useless and surely if someone were taking semen for freezing they would make sure it wasn't?


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## JanetGeorge (9 December 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
Oh, I'm pretty sure they're doing it properly- this is a very valuable stallion and I'm leaving the whole inseminating business to my vet and their vet... assuming any of this comes to fruition.
Can I ask why some frozen semen would be useless? I mean, what would make it useless and surely if someone were taking semen for freezing they would make sure it wasn't? 

[/ QUOTE ]

Some stallions' semen doesn't freeze well - no-one knows exactly why - they just don't.  And the ONLY useful test of whether a stallion's semen freezes well is whether it has been used and resulted in pregnancies.  So - for starters - I wouldn't want to be the first user of frozen semen from any particular stallion.

2nd, even if a stallion DOES freeze well, the handling of the semen from the moment it is collected is crucial.  Have a look at http://www.stallionai.com/pages/templates/general.asp?articleid=6&amp;zoneid=5 - starting half way down the page with Collection of Semen.  It details all the necessary steps - get just one of them wrong = duff semen.

Frozen semen has a very poor reputation in some parts of the world precisely because there IS so much duff frozen semen doing the rounds. Of course even if the semen is great, it still has to be thawed properly and every step of the AI process has to be spot on.  Fresh semen will live in the mare for at LEAST 2 days - sometimes up to 4 - meaning the timing is not critical.  Frozen semen needs to be used no more than 6 hours pre or post-ovulation for a good chance of conception.

The final problem with semen coming from Argentina is the health checks.  You would need an import licence and - to get one - the stallion must have undergone quarantine and health checks in an approved collecting station prior to semen being collected and frozen.

ETA - silly me - just noticed that you are IN Argentina so the health checks probably wouldn't apply UNLESS there are equine STDs in one part of Argentina and not another.


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## AndyPandy (9 December 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
 ...and I'm leaving the whole inseminating business to my vet and their vet... assuming any of this comes to fruition.
Can I ask why some frozen semen would be useless? I mean, what would make it useless and surely if someone were taking semen for freezing they would make sure it wasn't? 

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, the fact that you're leaving it to the vets is a good sign. Is your vet from CRIA or a similar place? 

I am assuming that the semen being sent out is of adequate quality. I've yet to come across frozen semen in this country that has been sent out and is not of adequate quality. Post-thaw motility of &gt;25% is good enough for me in most cases. And locally, a pregnancy with a dose with PTM in single figures has been acheived.

JG - I'm afraid the fact that you're a qualified AI tech does not mean that your inseminations with frozen are the golden standard. Low dose inseminations by the papilla of the oviduct on the size of the dominant follicle are necessary to acheive high pregnancy rates with frozen, and these inseminations can only be carried out by very experienced techs or vets using rectal palpation or endoscopes to guide the long catheter.

If these people are freezing in the wrong way or storing it in their freezer, then obviously, the semen will be no good. But I would say that, in general, people who would make these mistakes don't even attempt to freeze semen. Home freezing is perfectly viable.

Information from commercial websites like the one linked above should be taken with a pinch of salt. A company that makes its money from freezing semen want everyone to believe that freezing semen is a high-tech process, requiring expensive kit and extensive expertise. While the latter may help, basic equipment and some care will produce viable frozen semen in a lot of cases.

PF - definitely investigate if the semen has produced pregnancies, but don't be scared off. A good vet will produce a well timed season using PG, hCG/GnRH, and will be able to inseminate the frozen semen at the right time and give you a really good probability of getting a pregnancy.

Hope that helps.


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## AndyPandy (9 December 2007)

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And even the best frozen semen does NOT acheive pregnancy rates equal with chilled semen. 

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Well, based on international averages, you are correct. Current statistics suggest that pregnancy rates using frozen semen are approximately 10% lower than with chilled. However, the most modern techniques have improved timing, improved freezing of semen, and improved post-insemiation treatment of the mare to the point where pregnancy rates from AI with frozen semen are effectively equal to AI with chilled.

I think I quotes some stats on here some time ago from a 2006 American paper on inseminations with chilled and frozen semen. The pregnancy rates were 81.2% for chilled and 80.6% for frozen using a double insemination, low dose protocol. Fair enough, not EXACTLY the same, but it's pretty close! Things will only improve, and we can expect this pattern to be repeated at reputable breeding establishments across the world over the next few years.


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## JanetGeorge (9 December 2007)

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JG - I'm afraid the fact that you're a qualified AI tech does not mean that your inseminations with frozen are the golden standard. 

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I don't inseminate with frozen!  I stand a stallion and it's only his daughters who will be AI'd - and the one we plan to use frozen with will go to Twemlows.

[ QUOTE ]

Information from commercial websites like the one linked above should be taken with a pinch of salt. A company that makes its money from freezing semen want everyone to believe that freezing semen is a high-tech process, requiring expensive kit and extensive expertise. While the latter may help, basic equipment and some care will produce viable frozen semen in a lot of cases.

[/ QUOTE ]

Tell that to hundreds of breeders every year who spend a small fortune trying to get their mares in foal with frozen, doing everything right their end, and failing!  And if I want to freeze a stallion, I'd sure rather it was done at Twemlows - with extensive expertise and the best equipment rather than taking the risk that I may not be the lucky one who falls into the 'lot of cases' category.


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## AndyPandy (9 December 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
I don't inseminate with frozen!  I stand a stallion and it's only his daughters who will be AI'd - and the one we plan to use frozen with will go to Twemlows.

[/ QUOTE ]

Fair enough... I only mentioned it because you said you were a qualified AI tech when justifying your disapproval of frozen semen. Have you had any problems with frozen semen using vets?

[ QUOTE ]
 Tell that to hundreds of breeders every year who spend a small fortune trying to get their mares in foal with frozen, doing everything right their end, and failing! 

[/ QUOTE ]

Tell _that_ to the thousands of breeders every year who get their mares in foal with frozen semen. 

Doing everything "right", according to who? ... well, having dealt with a number of vets who say that they are experienced with frozen semen, and then seeing and hearing about what they do when AI'ing with frozen... I'm not sure that many people in the UK actually know what is "right" when it comes to using frozen semen.

The number of vets who think that post-ovulation inseminations are "the only way" with frozen semen is terrifying. It is globally accepted that fertility decreases exponentially with every hour after ovulation. There are a couple of excellent protocols that can be used for insemination with frozen semen, but very few vets in the UK are even aware of them, let alone use them.

[ QUOTE ]
And if I want to freeze a stallion, I'd sure rather it was done at Twemlows - with extensive expertise and the best equipment rather than taking the risk that I may not be the lucky one who falls into the 'lot of cases' category. 

[/ QUOTE ] 

70% of stallions have semen that will freeze and have acceptable to good post thaw motility. The equipment makes no difference, other than it is slightly labour saving. The centres and manufacturers would have you believe the you need a controlled rate freezer and other expensive, hi-tech equipment to freeze semen... but it has been shown over and over in scientific studies, that the standard "vapour freeze" method using less than £100 worth of equipment produces frozen semen of the same quality as that frozen using one of the machines that costs £7k-£20k.


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## Anastasia (9 December 2007)

Well being a studfarm that this year used natural covering, chilled semen and frozen semen, the best results we got were with the natural and frozen semen.

Everybody is very willing to blame everything on the semen, and as AP says, much more comes into it than that.

I have just had my own stallion have his semen frozen at Twemlows, with quite good results PM.  Tullis told me that as long as they can ship out the frozen at a minimum of 35% PM then it means that the person doing the AI'ing cannot fully blame the stallion semen.

A lot has to do with the person doing he insemination, and the internal makeup of the mare.

Each year you can get different results using the same semen, the same person doing the AI'ing and the mare.  Breeding is a lottery.......not any different to humans or any other animal breeding.... sometimes it works and others it does not.

I would have no problem using frozen and if it is good quality semen then at least you know its there for when your mare is in season.  With fresh or chilled you have to make sure you have a bloody reliable shipper.....otherwise it makes no difference if you use the best AI expert in the world....

Our biggest waste of money this year was with chilled semen...huge bill for a mare being away for a few months with nothing at the end of it, and with semen arriving on time etc....

Last year we had mares go into foal with no problems at all.  This year they were given about every drug under the sun to make them cycle and ovulate.....all I got was very high bills and one of my mares not in foal.  This was using the same people we did last year....who do around 120+ inseminations a year.  I am certainly not blaming the stallion semen because the frozen was excellent quality.

We have even had problems through natural covering and the semen being excellent quality...so with no handler in the middle....it can only then come down to the mare...either not being the right time, or some other reason etc....


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## Fahrenheit (9 December 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
And locally, a pregnancy with a dose with PTM in single figures has been acheived.

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 I am sooo glad I didn't throw that semen out when I was told to 5 years ago!!


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## Anastasia (9 December 2007)

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO HG......whats with the new avator..........love the new air brushed picture of you..........LOL....


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## Fahrenheit (9 December 2007)

I hit the wrong picture! 
	
	
		
		
	


	




 but hey I am sure you are not going to complain about having such a dish to be staring back at you whenever you read my posts


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## Anastasia (9 December 2007)

Would prefer to look at a bar of galaxy or cadburys if I had the choice.....LOL


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## Fahrenheit (9 December 2007)

ahhhhhhhhh but my picture has far less calories


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## Anastasia (9 December 2007)

Well you would certainly lose weight with your picture in real life...........PMSL....


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## Fahrenheit (9 December 2007)

Ooooooooooooo for a night of naughties with enrique  
	
	
		
		
	


	




.................ha ha ha! 
Look you...........you are such a bad influence Tinsel Bum, how many times have I told you i am going to bed at 9pm tonight and what time is it now??


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## htobago (9 December 2007)

I see the terrible twins are lowering the tone of the debate again!


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## JanetGeorge (9 December 2007)

[ QUOTE ]


Information from commercial websites like the one linked above should be taken with a pinch of salt. A company that makes its money from freezing semen want everyone to believe that freezing semen is a high-tech process, requiring expensive kit and extensive expertise. While the latter may help, basic equipment and some care will produce viable frozen semen in a lot of cases.



[/ QUOTE ]

Mmm - just one more question.  What makes the information on the Twemlows site any more unbelievable than the claims on http://www.equinereproduction.co.uk/index.html

other, of course, than the fact that Twemlows have 17 years in the business and a totally proven track record?  When your company has that sort of track record, you may be a little pi**ed off if some relative newcomers suggest YOUR site is misleading.


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## PapaFrita (10 December 2007)

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I see the terrible twins are lowering the tone of the debate again! 
	
	
		
		
	


	

















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Ooh, are they? It's all absolutely fascinating though


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## pocomoto (10 December 2007)

Just a cautionary note check the rules of the breed/type registration to make sure that they can still sign off the covering if they have sold the stallion.  Some organisations don't allow a previous owner to sign off on covering certificates etc once the horse is sold on.


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## PapaFrita (10 December 2007)

Thanks for that, but I'm sure it'll be ok as owner is planning to breed his own babies 
	
	
		
		
	


	




 I'll check just in case though.


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## Fahrenheit (10 December 2007)

JG - I think you completely missed APs point and that is, that it need not be so expensive to freeze semen.

For a very long time the semen freezing business has been contolled by a few centres in the UK but now there are alot more places opening up and more competition which is healthy for the industry because they are doing the same as 'the big few' but showing it doesn't have to cost so much..

A word of advice - just because you feel you are losing a debate, in which other people are expressing their opinions that may not agree with your own, does not mean you then launch a personnal attack on someones business, this board is for discussion and not everyone is going to share the same view points.


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## Anastasia (10 December 2007)

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I see the terrible twins are lowering the tone of the debate again! 
	
	
		
		
	


	

















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Htobago......you know us so well...... 
	
	
		
		
	


	





LLT2 - What on earth time were you up at this morning........! 
	
	
		
		
	


	





PF - Glad you are enjoying our banter.....welcome to our world in the breeding forum... 
	
	
		
		
	


	





JG - I agree with HG, all AP was trying to say was that freezing semen need not be expensive.  He has never advocated his own business on HHO, so think that is a little unfair on your comment, as it was you who pulled that into the conversation.


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## JanetGeorge (10 December 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
JG - I think you completely missed APs point and that is, that it need not be so expensive to freeze semen.

For a very long time the semen freezing business has been contolled by a few centres in the UK but now there are alot more places opening up and more competition which is healthy for the industry because they are doing the same as 'the big few' but showing it doesn't have to cost so much..

A word of advice - just because you feel you are losing a debate, in which other people are expressing their opinions that may not agree with your own, does not mean you then launch a personnal attack on someones business, this board is for discussion and not everyone is going to share the same view points. 

[/ QUOTE ]

No - I think YOU missed it.  I referred the OP to information on the Twemlow's site to give some background on the way the industry leaders do things. It was BrAndyPandyButter who said:

 [ QUOTE ]
 Information from commercial websites like the one linked above should be taken with a pinch of salt. A company that makes its money from freezing semen want everyone to believe that freezing semen is a high-tech process, requiring expensive kit and extensive expertise. 

[/ QUOTE ] 

That sounds rather like an attack on someone's business to me!!

It MAY be that freezing semen CAN be done cheaper - and be successful.  If so, that's great - although I'd personally want to see some proof of success rates before I tried.  But I'm actually not interested in 'winning' this debate - I WAS trying to give the OP useful background information so he/she would know some of the potential problems in what can be an expensive and disappointing process.


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## PapaFrita (10 December 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
 I WAS trying to give the OP useful background information so he/she would know some of the potential problems in what can be an expensive and disappointing process. 

[/ QUOTE ]
And I thank you and the other posters for your imput. I might know what the vet's talking about now


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## htobago (10 December 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
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I see the terrible twins are lowering the tone of the debate again! 
	
	
		
		
	


	

















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Ooh, are they? It's all absolutely fascinating though 
	
	
		
		
	


	





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By Terrible Twins I mean Horsegroupie and Anastasia - not JG and AP!

It is all fascinating, though, I agree. I only wish that more vets would be willing/able to use frozen semen - it would mean much less wear and tear on my little stallion!

AP you mentioned ages ago a method of inseminating with frozen that does not require the usual scans every 6 hours (which put a lot of vets off using frozen, especially if they are inseminating at the mare's home)! What is happening with this new method - is it becoming more widely known/available? And does it have a name? 

I'm asking partly because one of the breeders who used my boy last year now has a very enthusiastic/competent vet who is happy to use frozen semen. The breeder would like to use frozen this year (purely out of concern for my boy, bless her) so I would like to tell her and her vet about this new method, to save them some trouble if possible!


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## JanetGeorge (10 December 2007)

[ QUOTE ]


AP you mentioned ages ago a method of inseminating with frozen that does not require the usual scans every 6 hours (which put a lot of vets off using frozen, especially if they are inseminating at the mare's home)! What is happening with this new method - is it becoming more widely known/available? And does it have a name? 



[/ QUOTE ]

I suspect AP was referring to deep uterine insemination; as far as I am aware (and no doubt AP will correct me if I'm wrong) this method improves results and allows lower dose rates to be used, but doesn't buy much time.  Frozen semen doesn't 'last' as long in the mare once thawed so frequent scanning to determine the optimum time is still essential.


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## AndyPandy (10 December 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
AP you mentioned ages ago a method of inseminating with frozen that does not require the usual scans every 6 hours...

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes indeed. This is not deep uterine insemination alone, but a programme of drug treatment and double deep insemination. It takes a lot of the stress and hassle out of using frozen semen.

Here is the protocol:

1) PG to destroy CL and initiate estrus
2) Scan until 35mm follicle present
3) Give hCG (call this time 0h)
4) Inseminate (deep uterine) at 34h
5) Inseminate (deep uterine) at 40h

Feel free to spread the word to your vets!


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## AndyPandy (10 December 2007)

JG; here's a quick quote from Paul Loomis of Select Breeders Services (they really are industry leaders in frozen semen), from a paper of his from 2001:

"These data support the position that comparable pregnancy rates may be obtained using frozen and liquid cooled semen in a commercial setting."

Bear in mind that this was in 2001. We're 6 years further on in terms of technology, and in terms of pregnancy rates when using frozen semen.

With regards to using vapour freezing as opposed to computer controlled freezing... in 2005, Ed Squires (probably one of the best known equine fertility researchers in the world) who is based at CSU wrote a review of how modern technology has helped, and will continue to aid the equine breeding industry in years to come.

The point of controlled rate freezers, is that they allow you to change the rate of cooling down to -196 degrees C. The review by Squires says:

"They found no difference in post-thaw motility or viability for sperm cooled at any of these cooling rates."

Loomis and Squires both go on to say, in a later review, that there is NO difference in pregnancy rates between semen frozen using the "traditional" method and semen frozen using the computer controlled method.

I am not having a dig at any companies. Hence me saying that "commercial websites" (that would mean all company websites) should be read with a pinch of salt when trying to gather information about breeding (or any other service), because at the end of the day companies are there to make money, and their websites must reflect that to some extent.


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## JanetGeorge (10 December 2007)

[ QUOTE ]

Yes indeed. This is not deep uterine insemination alone, but a programme of drug treatment and double deep insemination. It takes a lot of the stress and hassle out of using frozen semen.

Here is the protocol:

1) PG to destroy CL and initiate estrus
2) Scan until 35mm follicle present
3) Give hCG (call this time 0h)
4) Inseminate (deep uterine) at 34h
5) Inseminate (deep uterine) at 40h
Feel free to spread the word to your vets! 

[/ QUOTE ]

Sounds fine - but it's not really a 'new treatment' - just a variation on standard protocol for frozen which would probably work if your mare is one of the approx. 85% who will ovulate 24-48 hours after hCG on a 35 mm follicle - with the other 15% you've probably wasted the semen.

And how many scans might you need to get to the 35mm stage?  This year, we had a couple of problem mares - including a 10 year old maiden, a 17 year old who hadn't foaled for 10 years,(both retained fluid first time around)  and an 18 year old who - after being easy-peasy for the last 4 years suddenly decided not to get into foal at all.  So we scanned more than normal (for natural cover.)

One mare was PG'd with a 25 mm follicle - took a week to get to 35.  Was hCG'd on the 35 m follicle and was STILL refusing to stand for the stallion 6 days later with a 50mm follicle.  We covered her the next day, gave her L/A oxytocin 12 hours later and got a pregnancy.

Another mare was PG'd on a 35 mm follicle - it was STILL 35 mm a week later and she hadn't come into season.  So we PG'd again and hCG'd her AND covered her 4 days later when a scan showed follicle was 45 and 'ripe'.  Again, got a pregnancy.  And these are just 2 for whom the absence of a scan prior to insemination would have resulted in no pregnancy.

And what if the mare hasn't ovulated 48 hours after hCG - even with deep uterine insemination - how long will thawed semen last in the mare??

I think that cutting a couple of scans may well prove to be false economy for MANY mare owners.


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## AndyPandy (10 December 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
Sounds fine - but it's not really a 'new treatment' -

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I didn't say it was new, but a surprising number of vets don't seem to do this, or know about it.

[ QUOTE ]
 ...just a variation on standard protocol for frozen which would probably work if your mare is one of the approx. 85% who will ovulate 24-48 hours after hCG on a 35 mm follicle - with the other 15% you've probably wasted the semen.

[/ QUOTE ]

These figures are heavily exaggerated. You've widened the time frame, and increased the number of mares that don't respond to treatment, making it seem like it's unlikely to work. 

Samper demonstrated that the majority of mares (94%) ovulate 3642 h following induction of ovulation with either hCG or deslorelin if the mare is in estrus, and a dominant preovulatory follicle and endometrial edema are present at the time of drug administration.

[ QUOTE ]
One mare was PG'd with a 25 mm follicle - took a week to get to 35.  Was hCG'd on the 35 m follicle and was STILL refusing to stand for the stallion 6 days later with a 50mm follicle... 

Another mare was PG'd on a 35 mm follicle - it was STILL 35 mm a week later and she hadn't come into season.  So we PG'd again and hCG'd her AND covered her 4 days later when a scan showed follicle was 45 and 'ripe'.  Again, got a pregnancy.  And these are just 2 for whom the absence of a scan prior to insemination would have resulted in no pregnancy.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why PG on a 35mm (or even a 25mm) follicle? PG should be used on mares with follicles &lt;30mm, or preferably &lt;20mm. 

While the use of PG may be an easy way to induce estrus, it is not without considerable complications that are often not understood and which can result in failure.

[ QUOTE ]
And what if the mare hasn't ovulated 48 hours after hCG - even with deep uterine insemination - how long will thawed semen last in the mare??

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Well, as said above, 94% of mares ovulate 36-42h after hCG administration. For the remaining 6%... well, yes - these ones might pose a problem, but it's quite a small proportion. The semen won't last that long 6-18 hours I believe, but using the protocol above, or similar ones will help to give the best chance of getting a pregnancy.

[ QUOTE ]
I think that cutting a couple of scans may well prove to be false economy for MANY mare owners. 

[/ QUOTE ]

I think that scans every six hours are impractical and perhaps become preventative for many vets and breeders. I think the protocol gives a well established system for acheiving good pregnancy rates.

Would love to know your thoughts on these points


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## JanetGeorge (11 December 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
These figures are heavily exaggerated. You've widened the time frame, and increased the number of mares that don't respond to treatment, making it seem like it's unlikely to work.

Samper demonstrated that the majority of mares (94%) ovulate 3642 h following induction of ovulation with either hCG or deslorelin if the mare is in estrus, and a dominant preovulatory follicle and endometrial edema are present at the time of drug administration.

[/ QUOTE ]

No - I haven't - just quoted DIFFERENT research that showed slightly different results.  And another group of researchers (lost the reference at present) showed a slightly lower % again.  But it would appear that most researchers find at LEAST 10% of mares don't ovulate within 48 hours which would suggest that omitting ANY scanning after hCG reduces your chances quite a bit.

[ QUOTE ]
Why PG on a 35mm (or even a 25mm) follicle? PG should be used on mares with follicles &lt;30mm, or preferably &lt;20mm. 

[/ QUOTE ]

Partly because that's the size the follicle WAS at the time of scanning - with no sign of the mare coming into oestrus - but also because in our (my vet's and my) experience, PG'ing on a 20 mm follicle is usually a waste of time when it comes to inducing oestrus. 

We USED to PG on a smaller follicle - say 20 mm - then after a week of teasing we'd scan again and find a 30mm follicle and no sign of approaching oestrus.  I don't like using PG more than necessary - hell, I don't like scanning more than necessary (my stallion teases very effectively and is never wrong - even when the mare is shy) - but if you've got older maidens with potential fluid problems then managing the cycle is more critical.

[ QUOTE ]

I think that scans every six hours are impractical and perhaps become preventative for many vets and breeders.  

[/ QUOTE ]  

I'd agree - every 6 hours could be problematic unless the mare is at a specialist AI centre -  I think Jonathon Pycock suggests that every 10-12 hours after hCG should be a minimum.


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## AndyPandy (11 December 2007)

That is a fair comment. I find Samper's figures to be most reliable taking into account the number of mares examined in his studies. However, I do accept that other figures have been found.

I certainly wouldn't say one should NOT scan at all 
	
	
		
		
	


	




 that would be silly, Jonathan's suggestion on 10-12 hours seems good, but I'm sure for some places and some vets, it could again become a preventative issue.

I think we would probably both agree that :

1) frozen semen needs to be better regulated (in terms of when frozen semen should be destroyed, although this is difficult taking into account the PTM of &lt;5% resulting in a pregnancy), and when we are better able to predict fertility of semen that has been frozen, it will be a more effective.

2) many vets and breeders need to be better educated about frozen semen, and how it can be used for maximum efficiency.

3) frozen semen has the potential to be an extremely useful for the majority of breeders in the near future

What do you think JG?


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## JanetGeorge (11 December 2007)

[ QUOTE ]


I think we would probably both agree that :
1) frozen semen needs to be better regulated (in terms of when frozen semen should be destroyed, although this is difficult taking into account the PTM of &lt;5% resulting in a pregnancy), and when we are better able to predict fertility of semen that has been frozen, it will be a more effective.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yep - and I think there needs to be FAR more information available about the quality of frozen semen - particularly things like the 1st cycle success rate.  Success figures are often quoted over 3 cycles (and then look good!) but I sure wouldn't be happy using frozen if a majority of mares were taking 2-3 cycles to conceive.  Makes it a veryu expensive exercise - quite apart from mares getting later and later.

[ QUOTE ]
2) many vets and breeders need to be better educated about frozen semen, and how it can be used for maximum efficiency.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed - and I think those selling frozen semen should ensure that the buyers and their vets know how to use it successfully - and then stand by it - rather than leaving the buyer with a massive gamble. (I've decided NOT to go ahead with frozen from one stallion because the deal was: 2 straws cost £xxx.  No guarantee at all.  No more straws if you need them (unless you pay another £xxx)  BUT, if you get mare in foal with one straw, you have to return the other.  A win/win situation for the semen owner - the mare owner can just hope and pray.)

[ QUOTE ]
3) frozen semen has the potential to be an extremely useful for the majority of breeders in the near future 

[/ QUOTE ]

Agree 100% - although the first two points could be limiting factors.  Mare owners need to have confidence that they stand a reasonable chance of success - provided they do it properly.

From my point of view, breeding Irish Draughts, where there is a relatively limited number of stallions 'suitable' for any mare because of narrowing bloodlines, frozen looks very attractive to get outcrosses.  But the risks - and costs - and the need to send mares away to a reputable AI centre - means I won't use it much at this stage - despite real difficulty finding suitable stallions available by chilled semen (which we can 'do' at home and I would therefore prefer - I don't trust ANYONE to look after my babies as I would!)


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## irishdraught (16 December 2007)

Back to the issue.......

My mare was inseminated by our vet after we bought frozen semen to preserve bloodlines. The stalion had been dead 6 years so as long as it is stored, transported and thawed correctly my yearling is proof that it works!!!!


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