# Dunne v Frost



## Velcrobum (1 December 2021)

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/horse-racing/59460186

Does not look good for Robbie Dunne as he has admitted to one of the charges.


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## bonny (1 December 2021)

Velcrobum said:



https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/horse-racing/59460186

Does not look good for Robbie Dunne as he has admitted to one of the charges.
		
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Racing must be one of the last places where men think it’s acceptable to talk to a woman like that, hopefully they will throw the book at him and that will be the end of his career.


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## Elf On A Shelf (1 December 2021)

They have only heard one side of the story so far. Let's not jump the gun.


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## bonny (1 December 2021)

Elf On A Shelf said:



			They have only heard one side of the story so far. Let's not jump the gun.
		
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I know you don’t like her but the case is that she says he bullied her unless you think he has some reasonable excuse for what he said to her ?


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## Elf On A Shelf (1 December 2021)

Oh there's no excuse for bullying but I suspect a lot more will be coming out of this than has already been said so I'm just saying to hang fire on judgement til we hear the whole story.


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## bonny (1 December 2021)

I suspect there are still a lot of people who don’t like women jockeys especially the ones who are having a lot of success. I suspect this case is bringing out into the open what some of them have to put up with and racing will be forced to take action and stop living in the past. That has to be a good thing ?


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## Parrotperson (1 December 2021)

IMO he's lucky not to be arrested for indecent exposure after that silly stunt in the changing room. Although why female jockeys are expected too sore facilities with male ones is beyond me. No good saying the racecourses haven't had time to have woman only facilities, they've had plenty of time.


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## Orangehorse (1 December 2021)

Racecourses are to have separate changing rooms.


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## Parrotperson (1 December 2021)

Orangehorse said:



			Racecourses are to have separate changing rooms.
		
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goid. About time!


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## Gamebird (1 December 2021)

I think the problem is that the valets are based in the male changing rooms, so although most racecourses have separate female facilities, they still need to go into the male changing rooms to access the valets.


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## Velcrobum (1 December 2021)

Regardless of what comes out during the rest of this inquiry he has admitted to one of the charges which I am guessing will earn him a ban from racing for a period of time.


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## Elf On A Shelf (1 December 2021)

I have no doubt Robbie will get banned for a period of time. But what people seem to be forgetting is there are 2 sides to every story. He has kept quiet, she has been shouting from the rooftops. So let's just wait and see what he has to say first because this certainly isn't a one sided story by any stretch of the imagination!


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## teapot (1 December 2021)

I think this case is the one that could have more far reaching consequnces:

https://www.racingpost.com/news/lat...t-kempton-jim-crowley-tells-high-court/524751


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## Elf On A Shelf (1 December 2021)

teapot said:



			I think this case is the one that could have more far reaching consequnces:

https://www.racingpost.com/news/lat...t-kempton-jim-crowley-tells-high-court/524751

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Yes this one is going to have the biggest impact on racing and it makes the other argument seem pretty irrelevant in comparison.


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## Steerpike (1 December 2021)

I wouldn't say she has been shouting from the roof tops, she was brave to put in a complaint in so she was bound to have the press hunt her down. I am not surprised other jockeys haven't joined in as its typical old boys club.


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## Parrotperson (1 December 2021)

Steerpike said:



			I wouldn't say she has been shouting from the roof tops, she was brave to put in a complaint in so she was bound to have the press hunt her down. I am not surprised other jockeys haven't joined in as its typical old boys club.
		
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agreed. she is fighting the old boys club and people enabling them. Everyone who says 'oh well what did she expect" or (Sorry elf but have to respectfully disagree) or 'there are twosomes to this story" are enablers of a male dominated society that places women in dangerous and difficult situations every day. And sometimes gets them killed. 

The other female jockeys who just also have had their fair share of problems are keeping quiet for a quiet life. It's not helpful. 

I've had "banter" from men when working as a groom many times over that has made me uncomfortable at best and downright frightened at worst and done nothing to my eternal shame. 

It needs sorting. Now before it escalates any further.


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## minesadouble (1 December 2021)

Sorry but there are two sides to EVERY story, saying that makes no one an enabler!! 

Do you have some inside knowledge that other female riders are staying quiet for a quiet life or is there a possibility they are not supporting her because they disagree with her?


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## AFishOutOfWater (1 December 2021)

Out of interest Elf what is your reason for disliking Frost so much?


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## Elf On A Shelf (1 December 2021)

Slow.sleighbells said:



			Out of interest Elf what is your reason for disliking Frost so much?
		
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She's stuck up her own backside, expects people to bow down before her and isn't a nice person when there isn't a camera pointed at her. First hand experience. 

BUT

No one deserves to be bullied, no one deserves to be threatened or treated badly. No one deserves to be judged before the full story is heard.

There are 2 sides to this story. Only 1 side has been heard so far.


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## Steerpike (2 December 2021)

What ever the out come I hope this gives the BHA a kick up the backside, they have handled this appallingly and shows that parts of the racing industry is still in the dark ages.


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## NinjaPony (2 December 2021)

Frost isn’t the one on trial here, for the purposes of the case her personality is irrelevant. If Dunne had a professional issue with Frost that should have gone to the relevant authority. There is no excuse for behaving in the way that he has admitted to behaving, and it needs to be stamped out. Male violence against women is ignored and ignored until it’s too late. I have absolutely no opinion on Frost as I have never met her and don’t particularly keep up with racing, but it’s not just the ‘nice’ women who should be protected from male aggression.


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## Fred66 (2 December 2021)

bonny said:



			Racing must be one of the last places where men think it’s acceptable to talk to a woman like that, hopefully they will throw the book at him and that will be the end of his career.
		
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Just read the bbc report so far and whilst what he said was threatening the fact it was said in the heat of the moment when the mount he was riding had died would mitigate somewhat. Added to which blow ups like that are apparently quite common.

Other female jockeys appear to not be offering the same opinion of him and some have openly disputed some of Frosts  testimony.

As Elf on a Shelf said we have heard one side only.


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## bonny (2 December 2021)

Fred66 said:



			Just read the bbc report so far and whilst what he said was threatening the fact it was said in the heat of the moment when the mount he was riding had died would mitigate somewhat. Added to which blow ups like that are apparently quite common.

Other female jockeys appear to not be offering the same opinion of him and some have openly disputed some of Frosts  testimony.

As Elf on a Shelf said we have heard one side only.
		
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Back in the real world do you think it’s ok to openly shout, abuse people and threaten them because you are upset ? Try acting like that in almost any other job now and you would find yourself shown the door.


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## Fred66 (2 December 2021)

bonny said:



			Back in the real world do you think it’s ok to openly shout, abuse people and threaten them because you are upset ? Try acting like that in almost any other job now and you would find yourself shown the door.
		
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By all means let’s get back to the real world ! Sport has always been an exception, watch any tv coverage of sporting events and it is not unusual to see opposing players (and sometimes team mates) verbally abusing each other. Not saying that it’s right just that it is accepted in that context.

If you have just had your safety jeopardized and seen your horse killed then I can understand that there are some mitigating factors and that things said in the heat of the moment are not necessarily a reflection of the character of that person.

Please note I know neither of them and if she has been subjected to ongoing abuse by him then I hope they ban him.

I also hope that they put policies in place to ensure the alleged actions don’t happen in the future irrespective of the outcome of the case.  No one should be allowed to get away with intimidating or demeaning someone else.


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## Fred66 (2 December 2021)

…


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## Parrotperson (2 December 2021)

minesadouble said:



			Sorry but there are two sides to EVERY story, saying that makes no one an enabler!!

Do you have some inside knowledge that other female riders are staying quiet for a quiet life or is there a possibility they are not supporting her because they disagree with her?
		
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trying to have a civilised discussion so here goes!

Is there two sides to every story though?

Jimmy Saville, Wayne Couzens, Colin Pitchfork to name but a few? 

Misoginistic men always have an answer. and its usually "she made me do it. It was her actions"

and it wasn't just on the occasion when the horse sadly died (for which the stewards found no fault with Ms Frost) it was on multiple occasions. 

Todays evidence has been very interesting. Twos ides to every story? No. Not always. But it will be interesting to hear Mr Dunne's.


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## Fred66 (2 December 2021)

Parrotperson said:



			trying to have a civilised discussion so here goes!

Is there two sides to every story though?

Jimmy Saville, Wayne Couzens, Colin Pitchfork to name but a few?

Misoginistic men always have an answer. and its usually "she made me do it. It was her actions"

and it wasn't just on the occasion when the horse sadly died (for which the stewards found no fault with Ms Frost) it was on multiple occasions.

Todays evidence has been very interesting. Twos ides to every story? No. Not always. But it will be interesting to hear Mr Dunne's.
		
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There are always two sides.

However that doesn’t mean that both sides have valid views just that when listening to transcripts from court cases you need to hear the other side before forming a view. 

Reading some of the extract yesterday then whilst other women jockeys have not fully supported Frosts allegations they have acknowledged that he is not the most pleasant of individuals.


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## Velcrobum (2 December 2021)

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/horse-racing/59488658

Interesting reading!


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## bonny (2 December 2021)

Velcrobum said:



https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/horse-racing/59488658

Interesting reading!
		
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It’s not going well for him


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## ester (2 December 2021)

Ahh you have to hide away to be distressed, noted.


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## Rowreach (2 December 2021)

"Lewis Piper said Frost remained in the male changing room after the incident. "If she was distressed surely she would have gone to her own room and hid away?" he said."

Why the hell should she?


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## Elf On A Shelf (2 December 2021)

ester said:



			Ahh you have to hide away to be distressed, noted.
		
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They couldn't have used a worse term than hid away. 

My take on that would be - if she was offended by men walking around stark bullock naked then she would have swiftly left the male changing room. But the turn of phrase - Hid Away - is doing nothing for this case other than to make even more men look bad.


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## Fred66 (2 December 2021)

Elf On A Shelf said:



			They couldn't have used a worse term than hid away.

My take on that would be - if she was offended by men walking around stark bullock naked then she would have swiftly left the male changing room. But the turn of phrase - Hid Away - is doing nothing for this case other than to make even more men look bad.
		
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Agree. BHA have a case to answer however in respect of changing facilities. If the valets were in the female changing area and men felt free to walk in and out when women were changing there would be an outcry. The valets should be in a neutral area where people visiting them should be required to display a modicum of decorum.


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## BronsonNutter (2 December 2021)

Fred66 said:



			Agree. BHA have a case to answer however in respect of changing facilities. If the valets were in the female changing area and men felt free to walk in and out when women were changing there would be an outcry. The valets should be in a neutral area where people visiting them should be required to display a modicum of decorum.
		
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^ This. Maybe the male jockeys don't always want women wandering in to 'their' changing rooms either! 

I'm not saying Dunne is squeaky clean, but if I was on a horse that was fatally injured in a fall where I perceived another jockey to be at fault then I'd blow my lid at them too. I expect he would have spoken to a male jockey in the same way if it had been someone else perceived to be at fault. Racing is dangerous - people need to know if they're riding dangerously. They clearly don't get on (and from the looks of it, a lot of people in racing don't like Frost) - gender doesn't seem to come into it?


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## Rowreach (2 December 2021)

BronsonNutter said:



			^ This. Maybe the male jockeys don't always want women wandering in to 'their' changing rooms either!

I'm not saying Dunne is squeaky clean, but if I was on a horse that was fatally injured in a fall where I perceived another jockey to be at fault then I'd blow my lid at them too. I expect he would have spoken to a male jockey in the same way if it had been someone else perceived to be at fault. Racing is dangerous - people need to know if they're riding dangerously. They clearly don't get on (and from the looks of it, a lot of people in racing don't like Frost) - gender doesn't seem to come into it?
		
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Ah, so it’s ok to be abusive and threatening to someone you don’t like. You’d get on well with my ex-boss.


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## Elf On A Shelf (2 December 2021)

There is a lot more in today's report than the simple line - she should have gone back to her room and hid away. 

The bha guy in charge at the time, leaked loads of the issue and then quit was called in to answer questions about why a fair bit of statements made are missing or noted down rather than written to their full extent. Also questions about his relationship with Frost's father have been asked with regards to him asking for certain things - namely an apology - to be removed from the records.

There is still a lot to be said and done with this case. The bha have allocated 6 days to it in total so we are only half way through.


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## Elf On A Shelf (2 December 2021)

In almost all weighing rooms there is a separate female changing room but yes the valets work bench is in the men's. This does need to change. They should have it sectioned off with easy access to both genders of jockeys.


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## Steerpike (2 December 2021)

As Mick Fitzgerald said previously on the Morning show there is a difference between giving someone a rollicking and telling them what they did wrong to hopefully learn from it and bullying, by the sounds of it Dunne has stepped over the line in the continual harassment of Frost.


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## ester (2 December 2021)

Was it his job to give the rollocking though (stewards?!) it doesn't matter that he would have done the same to a male jockey if he shouldn't be doing it at all.


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## BronsonNutter (2 December 2021)

Rowreach said:



			Ah, so it’s ok to be abusive and threatening to someone you don’t like. You’d get on well with my ex-boss.
		
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If it was a one-off, heat-of-the-moment thing I’d say shouting at someone if you perceive their negligence to have killed a horse you were riding and endangered your life isn’t that unreasonable?

Yes, it should be the stewards job to do that. Yes, he has stepped over the line by persistently hounding her. 

Please re-read my post. I never said it was acceptable just because you didn’t like someone… I said they clearly didn’t like each other but gender didn’t seem to come into it?


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## Rowreach (2 December 2021)

BronsonNutter said:



			If it was a one-off, heat-of-the-moment thing I’d say shouting at someone if you perceive their negligence to have killed a horse you were riding and endangered your life isn’t that unreasonable?

Yes, it should be the stewards job to do that. Yes, he has stepped over the line by persistently hounding her.

Please re-read my post. I never said it was acceptable just because you didn’t like someone… I said they clearly didn’t like each other but gender didn’t seem to come into it?
		
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But it wasn’t a one-off.


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## ycbm (2 December 2021)

What an interesting choice of title for the thread.  It is the British Horseracing Authority taking the case against Dunne, not Frost.  This is BHA v. Dunne.   She is what is normally referred to as  "the victim", especially when one charge has already been admitted.
.


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## Velcrobum (2 December 2021)

BronsonNutter said:



			^ This. Maybe the male jockeys don't always want women wandering in to 'their' changing rooms either!

I'm not saying Dunne is squeaky clean, but if I was on a horse that was fatally injured in a fall where I perceived another jockey to be at fault then I'd blow my lid at them too. I expect he would have spoken to a male jockey in the same way if it had been someone else perceived to be at fault. Racing is dangerous - people need to know if they're riding dangerously. They clearly don't get on (and from the looks of it, a lot of people in racing don't like Frost) - gender doesn't seem to come into it?
		
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But the stewards decided her riding was not at fault in that incident apparently.


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## Velcrobum (2 December 2021)

As OP apologies my bad for poor thread header. I stand corrected it is indeed BHA v Dunne.


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## ycbm (3 December 2021)

Velcrobum said:



			As OP apologies my bad for poor thread header. I stand corrected it is indeed BHA v Dunne.
		
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I didn't mean to make you feel bad,  I thought it was a reflection on how this is being seen within racing circles.  It doesn't appear as if being the victim, or even just a witness,  in this case is foremost in racing people's minds,  if it's in them at all.  I think you just picked up on that.
.


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## TheOldTrout (3 December 2021)

Another jockey - Hannah Welch - has now spoken out against Dunne.
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2...dunne-contributed-to-her-leaving-horse-racing


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## fankino04 (3 December 2021)

Well neither of them are coming out of this looking good! I think the blowing up at her after his horse died could probably be taken out of the equation but if he has bullied and intimidated her at other times then he needs to pay the price for that, and if her riding is regularly as dangerous as him and now maybe others are staring then instead of letting rip they need to be reporting each and every occasion of this for her to be dealt with.


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## bonny (3 December 2021)

fankino04 said:



			Well neither of them are coming out of this looking good! I think the blowing up at her after his horse died could probably be taken out of the equation but if he has bullied and intimidated her at other times then he needs to pay the price for that, and if her riding is regularly as dangerous as him and now maybe others are staring then instead of letting rip they need to be reporting each and every occasion of this for her to be dealt with.
		
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Every single race is scrutinised by the stewards, they look into every incidence and every fall to see if blame can be attached. It’s a dangerous sport and safety is paramount, I have never been aware of Bryony being a danger to anyone and if she was the stewards would come down very heavily on her. 
It seems to me that what has been going on is personal, it is bullying and I hope they throw the book at him.


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## Andie02 (3 December 2021)

I do not think that Bryony would be getting rides in Grade 1's for Paul Nicholls if he thought that her riding is dangerous, and considering that she is booked to ride for Willie Mullins in Ireland on Sunday also a Grade 1,  I would think that he must be happy enough with her riding.


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## tristar (3 December 2021)

Elf On A Shelf said:



			She's stuck up her own backside, expects people to bow down before her and isn't a nice person when there isn't a camera pointed at her. First hand experience. 

BUT

No one deserves to be bullied, no one deserves to be threatened or treated badly. No one deserves to be judged before the full story is heard.

There are 2 sides to this story. Only 1 side has been heard so far.
		
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to be fair she is an outgoing personality.

she is in a tough game, that calls for tough thinking at the racecourse, perhaps she blocks out everything else, i know i do when i ride certain horses, its like i don`t see or hear those around me, i call it total focus, perhaps she has a dose of that, it helps with self preservation and contributes to success, because on a horse you have to go all the way and give everything to that horse and that race

and all that both sides of the story, i have often found involve a victim and a perpetrator, and sometimes the victim becomes the baddy

not saying you are wrong but i do feel the circumstances, ie.  a very tense, almost unique place where in ten minutes time you could be a hero or lying on floor with a broken neck is handled by an individual in their own way, i mean its not  `tele shopping`` chatter time with distraction, being nicey  nicey, it really is put your mind in gear because this is as high as it gets in racing and she is  a girl after all

and this is supposed to be sport, my backside, in any true sport the participants always show a sense of respect and friendliness

and who wants to see him bare yuk!


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## Velcrobum (3 December 2021)

This testimony is fairly damming and some of the jockeys do not appear to be doing themselves any favours either.

https://www.racingpost.com/news/lat...st-out-of-the-ordinary-fence-attendant/525045


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## ycbm (3 December 2021)

fankino04 said:



			if her riding is regularly as dangerous as him and now maybe others are staring then instead of letting rip they need to be reporting each and every occasion of this for her to be dealt with.
		
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I find it very difficult to believe that they wouldn't already have done that if she rode dangerously.  
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## Parrotperson (3 December 2021)

BronsonNutter said:



			If it was a one-off, heat-of-the-moment thing I’d say shouting at someone if you perceive their negligence to have killed a horse you were riding and endangered your life isn’t that unreasonable?

Yes, it should be the stewards job to do that. Yes, he has stepped over the line by persistently hounding her.

Please re-read my post. I never said it was acceptable just because you didn’t like someone… I said they clearly didn’t like each other but gender didn’t seem to come into it?
		
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 But it wasn’t a one off thing that’s the problem. He has carried on amusing himself by being a bully for several years…..


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## Keep Trying (3 December 2021)

What ever both sides of this situation are, they clearly highlight just how insular and backward the industry still is. Maybe there will be a positive outcome here and racing will be forced to drag it's sorry arse into the 21st century once and for all.


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## Mule (4 December 2021)

He sounds like a nasty piece of work. Can't believe what female jockeys have to put up with.


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## Rowreach (4 December 2021)

I'm doing a fair amount of work at the moment for Women in Sport, and not only my own experiences, but all the others I'm hearing, shows that this type of behaviour is alive and kicking. It's aided and abetted by those who choose to overlook it, see it as the way it's always been, are too scared of the bullies to call them out, or too scared (usually other women) of becoming the next target.

And the women who do stand up, do expose the bullies, do call into question the integrity of their organisations and their whole sport, they are never considered a *victim*, they are just  gobby opinionated entitled females who are only out to cause trouble and attention seek.  Been there, lost my job over it.


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## TheOldTrout (4 December 2021)

Rowreach said:



			I'm doing a fair amount of work at the moment for Women in Sport, and not only my own experiences, but all the others I'm hearing, shows that this type of behaviour is alive and kicking. It's aided and abetted by those who choose to overlook it, see it as the way it's always been, are too scared of the bullies to call them out, or too scared (usually other women) of becoming the next target.

And the women who do stand up, do expose the bullies, do call into question the integrity of their organisations and their whole sport, they are never considered a *victim*, they are just  gobby opinionated entitled females who are only out to cause trouble and attention seek.  Been there, lost my job over it.
		
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There's a lot of ignorance over it too. Just yesterday I was reading a post on LinkedIn with someone complaining about a girls only go-karting session, claiming it was discrimination. Although one or two people (white and male, no surprises there) agreed with the post, there were more people arguing against it and saying about the need for safe spaces in which people can practise sport (or do other things). You'd think the racism in cricket scandal would have shown that poster why some people might prefer segregated spaces, but apparently not...


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## planete (4 December 2021)

And another sportswoman on the receiving end https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...judo-stars-coach-cleared-of-domestic-violence.


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## Parrotperson (4 December 2021)

Rowreach said:



			I'm doing a fair amount of work at the moment for Women in Sport, and not only my own experiences, but all the others I'm hearing, shows that this type of behaviour is alive and kicking. It's aided and abetted by those who choose to overlook it, see it as the way it's always been, are too scared of the bullies to call them out, or too scared (usually other women) of becoming the next target.

And the women who do stand up, do expose the bullies, do call into question the integrity of their organisations and their whole sport, they are never considered a *victim*, they are just  gobby opinionated entitled females who are only out to cause trouble and attention seek.  Been there, lost my job over it.
		
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yep. this. 100%. well said. and argued.


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## Parrotperson (4 December 2021)

planete said:



			And another sportswoman on the receiving end https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...judo-stars-coach-cleared-of-domestic-violence.
		
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this is awful! Poor girl. she's living in terror now of what he might do next.


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## bonny (4 December 2021)

The public love her, that was a brilliant win in the Tingle Creek 😁


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## Rowreach (4 December 2021)

It's also noticeable that prominent sportswomen who openly step back due to stress, mental health concerns, any other reason actually, are deemed to be weak and not up to it, whereas the ones who like BF are toughing it out are seen as unpleasant people and open to character assassination (not least from other women).


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## teapot (4 December 2021)

Rowreach said:



			I'm doing a fair amount of work at the moment for Women in Sport, and not only my own experiences, but all the others I'm hearing, shows that this type of behaviour is alive and kicking. It's aided and abetted by those who choose to overlook it, see it as the way it's always been, are too scared of the bullies to call them out, or too scared (usually other women) of becoming the next target.

And the women who do stand up, do expose the bullies, do call into question the integrity of their organisations and their whole sport, they are never considered a *victim*, they are just  gobby opinionated entitled females who are only out to cause trouble and attention seek.  Been there, lost my job over it.
		
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Absolutely. Let alone the can of worms that is how women treat other women.


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## McGrools (4 December 2021)

bonny said:



			The public love her, that was a brilliant win in the Tingle Creek 😁
		
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No doubting her talent! Amazing win i am absolutely thrilled for her!


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## The Bouncing Bog Trotter (4 December 2021)

Just catching up this. I don't know enough of the facts to comment on the case as I am still reading upon the issue but I am horrified at some of the devastatingly misogynistic comments on some of the social media sites. I don't consider myself to be hugely naive but what some people are prepare to post on sites *under their own names* is staggering. Honestly thought we had moved on as a society but obviously not in a not insignificant minorities minds.


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## Velcrobum (4 December 2021)

There were 5 runners in the Tingle Creek of which 2 were ridden by women being placed 1st and 3rd. Then Bridget Andrews pulled off a big win at Aintree and also was 3rd in another race. I genuinely feel that there are some very misogynistic male jockeys who are lesser riders who hate the idea of women being better. Bryony's results from today 1st, 3rd x2 and a 4th!!


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## splashgirl45 (4 December 2021)

well i was pleased for her especially for the win,  there is no doubting her talent and grit and the horses seem to run well for her.  i think quite a few of the male jockeys hate being beaten by women and i would imagine thats part of the reason for the current case..i wonder if they would be so rude and aggressive to a male jockey who had made a mistake..


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## tristar (4 December 2021)

Rowreach said:



			It's also noticeable that prominent sportswomen who openly step back due to stress, mental health concerns, any other reason actually, are deemed to be weak and not up to it, whereas the ones who like BF are toughing it out are seen as unpleasant people and open to character assassination (not least from other women).
		
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and sometimes other women are women`s worst enemies in bringing them down

i`ve come across some stinkers in my time men and women, but unfortunately  for them  i have no fear of anyone or their character assassination attempts, yet i feel it is so sad it has to come to  BF going to court or anyone else for that matter when all they are doing is their job, personally if someone did the  exposure thing to me i`d wait till no one is looking and give him a  swift knee in the jaxy , all the other things are not worth risking one`s reputation for by retaliating and descending to their level of behavior, self control is everything or one can never present a case against them and get accused of 6 of 1 and half a dozen of another


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## Arzada (4 December 2021)

Elf On A Shelf said:



			In almost all weighing rooms there is a separate female changing room but yes the valets work bench is in the men's. This does need to change. They should have it sectioned off with easy access to both genders of jockeys.
		
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How does someone get a job as a valet? I can't find any career information and the very little I've found suggests that it's like the car transport drivers in days gone by, like the 70s, handed down father to son. White man to white man.


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## bonny (4 December 2021)

Arzada said:



			How does someone get a job as a valet? I can't find any career information and the very little I've found suggests that it's like the car transport drivers in days gone by, like the 70s, handed down father to son. White man to white man.
		
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A lot of them are ex jockeys


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## McGrools (4 December 2021)

Velcrobum said:



			There were 5 runners in the Tingle Creek of which 2 were ridden by women being placed 1st and 3rd. Then Bridget Andrews pulled off a big win at Aintree and also was 3rd in another race. I genuinely feel that there are some very misogynistic male jockeys who are lesser riders who hate the idea of women being better. Bryony's results from today 1st, 3rd x2 and a 4th!!
		
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The girls are certainly proving their worth. Its great to see x


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## Velcrobum (7 December 2021)

Oops not going very well at the hearing
https://www.racingpost.com/news/lat...nsel-over-virtual-grand-national-tweet/525896


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## Clodagh (7 December 2021)

Even if BF is unlikeable (not saying she is, I don't know her), she should be treated with professional courtesty by her competitors. They all left school many years ago.

I absolutely love her post race interviews, at least she shows a bit of enthusiam and love for the sport and the horse. Compare her to Ryan Moore. Not saying he is unlikeable either, but post race interviews are not his strength.


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## splashgirl45 (7 December 2021)

on reading that article dunne's representative is saying that other jockeys have felt the same about her riding.  even if her riding was suspect, which i havent seen, dunne should have reported her to the authorities and not acted the way he did,  he needs to be disciplined for his behaviour and told to grow up....will be interesting to hear what the other jockeys say and whether they back dunne


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## Elf On A Shelf (7 December 2021)

With regards to the Virtual Grand National tweet Dunne put out - he was the only one stupid enough to put down in written words, in the public domain what the majority of people that work in racing (all parts of racing) were thinking. 

The next few days will be interesting when the other jockeys have their say.


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## bonny (7 December 2021)

Elf On A Shelf said:



			With regards to the Virtual Grand National tweet Dunne put out - he was the only one stupid enough to put down in written words, in the public domain what the majority of people that work in racing (all parts of racing) were thinking.

The next few days will be interesting when the other jockeys have their say.
		
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That’s a horrible thing to say, is not even accurate to say you know what the majority of people were thinking.


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## Clodagh (7 December 2021)

Elf On A Shelf said:



			With regards to the Virtual Grand National tweet Dunne put out - he was the only one stupid enough to put down in written words, in the public domain what the majority of people that work in racing (all parts of racing) were thinking..
		
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Don’t you think that’s just sad that someone can be disliked for showing enthusiasm and love, and the ability to put across the teamwork you have when riding to people that don’t understand it?
I suppose ‘real’ racing people prefer the ‘it’s a machine’ attitude that all jockeys used to show?


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## Backtoblack (7 December 2021)

having read the reports in the link it seems there has been a lot of unproffessional swearing and threats made to Frost, if this was a work place tribunal im sure the perpetrator would be sacked and even the police involved for the death threats,its not the 1970s anymore the race issues in yorkshire cricket have highlighted this. imo  Dunne needs to be sacked, stopped from riding and made to find another job where is alledged uncouth and misoginistic comments will not be tollerated, made to come into the real world and not the closed boys club racing seems to be.


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## Andie02 (7 December 2021)

Backtoblack said:



			having read the reports in the link it seems there has been a lot of unproffessional swearing and threats made to Frost, if this was a work place tribunal im sure the perpetrator would be sacked and even the police involved for the death threats,its not the 1970s anymore the race issues in yorkshire cricket have highlighted this. imo  Dunne needs to be sacked, stopped from riding and made to find another job where is alledged uncouth and misoginistic comments will not be tollerated, made to come into the real world and not the closed boys club racing seems to be.
		
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And lets not forget the indecent exposure !

Makes me wonder what his wife thinks about all of this and how she is dealing with it.


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## Tiddlypom (7 December 2021)

Elf On A Shelf said:



			With regards to the Virtual Grand National tweet Dunne put out - he was the only one stupid enough to put down in written words, in the public domain what the majority of people that work in racing (all parts of racing) were thinking.

The next few days will be interesting when the other jockeys have their say.
		
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😬😬😬. Oh dear.

We get it, EKW, you don't like Bryony Frost, but your comments are not professional, and are not helpful to racing.


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## Andie02 (7 December 2021)

Tiddlypom said:



			😬😬😬. Oh dear.

We get it, EKW, you don't like Bryony Frost, but your comments are not professional, and are not helpful to racing.
		
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This exactly !


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## Elf On A Shelf (7 December 2021)

So we all have to suddenly change our opinions and worship the ground she walks on just because the press says so and because she talks like a 7yo child who has just jumped her first cross pole clear round on Twinkletoes the pony? 

Do you think Dunne being sent death threats and threats of serious violence by her family is OK because he is male? And by all accounts he is not the only one who has been on the end of these!

There is still a lot more to come from this case.


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## bonny (7 December 2021)

Elf On A Shelf said:



			So we all have to suddenly change our opinions and worship the ground she walks on just because the press says so and because she talks like a 7yo child who has just jumped her first cross pole clear round on Twinkletoes the pony?

Do you think Dunne being sent death threats and threats of serious violence by her family is OK because he is male? And by all accounts he is not the only one who has been on the end of these!

There is still a lot more to come from this case.
		
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Why not just wait and see, I really think you should stop commenting at least until the end of the case.


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## Steerpike (7 December 2021)

Elf On A Shelf said:



			So we all have to suddenly change our opinions and worship the ground she walks on just because the press says so and because she talks like a 7yo child who has just jumped her first cross pole clear round on Twinkletoes the pony?
		
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I'm sorry but you need to read that back, reading that out makes you sound like the 7 year old.
 I have known quite a few racing people with a similar attitude to yours and sadly they don't do racing any favours and are part of racing's problem.


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## Mrs. Jingle (7 December 2021)

Elf On A Shelf said:



			With regards to the Virtual Grand National tweet Dunne put out - he was the only one stupid enough to put down in written words, in the public domain what the majority of people that work in racing (all parts of racing) were thinking.

The next few days will be interesting when the other jockeys have their say.
		
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With your very knowledgeable and interesting insight into the world of horse racing that many of us on the forum enjoy, I personally find it very disappointing how you are demeaning yourself with your supposedly 'insider' comments on this thread.

You are losing the run of yourself, and in doing so any previously held respect for your knowledge of the industry is dwindling rapidly. Pity really.


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## Parrotperson (7 December 2021)

Well the whole thing smacks of jealousy to me. dunne is jealous of frost’s success and doesn’t like it cos she’s a girl. 

I’ve not seen an interview that BF has done that hadn’t praised the horse, trainer and staff. She’s enthusiastic and it’s nice to see. 

and if racing doesn’t like her enthusiasm then that’s v sad snd a loss to it.

As an aside do people hate Frankie who is just at enthusiastic? No? Because he’s a bloke? Was he hated as a youngster?

and by the sound of it there’s a few people who are jealous of her. It’s all so unnecessary.


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## The Fuzzy Furry (7 December 2021)

Elf On A Shelf said:



			So we all have to suddenly change our opinions and worship the ground she walks on just because the press says so and because she talks like a 7yo child who has just jumped her first cross pole clear round on Twinkletoes the pony?
.
		
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Elf, that's uncalled for and unprofessional. I thought a lot more of you than the quite frankly petty comment above 😥
.
It's very rare to see anyone on here diss their own chosen sport or fellow riders and competitors,  from dressage, sj to eventing etc in writing, on a very public forum. Most close ranks and stick up for the beleaguered ones on most occasions.

Most here are not privy to daily chat on and off course, nor Chinese whispers etc, but are following the reporting of the case as it happens.


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## Quigleyandme (7 December 2021)

As an aside there is a clip on H&H online of Harry Skelton shoving a jockey back into the saddle as he was falling out the side door following a blunder at a fence. Great sportsmanship displayed.


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## Andie02 (7 December 2021)

Quigleyandme said:



			As an aside there is a clip on H&H online of Harry Skelton shoving a jockey back into the saddle as he was falling out the side door following a blunder at a fence. Great sportsmanship displayed.
		
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Yes I saw that too, I have seen that happen a few times in Ireland as well.


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## Andie02 (7 December 2021)

bonny said:



			That’s a horrible thing to say, is not even accurate to say you know what the majority of people were thinking.
		
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Clearly her crystal ball isn't working bonny, because she certainly isn't getting what we are all thinking about the situation.


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## Shilasdair (7 December 2021)

I've just heard the news summary of the hearing - apparently Frost is a danger to everyone (then one wonders why the BHA haven't looked long and hard at the predominantly male stewards), Welch is lying, and Dunne's threats to put her through a wing were 'banter'.
Righty-o.


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## Exploding Chestnuts (7 December 2021)

T_he whole mess is going to do no one any good, now Chris Maude's valet's refuse to work for her, very petty, and makes life even more difficult in the weighing room. _


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## Rowreach (7 December 2021)

The thing about dangerous jockeys is that trainers (particularly the big names) don't put them up on their horses ....


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## Exploding Chestnuts (7 December 2021)

Arzada said:



			How does someone get a job as a valet? I can't find any career information and the very little I've found suggests that it's like the car transport drivers in days gone by, like the 70s, handed down father to son. White man to white man.
		
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Its usually ex jockeys, very few of them, not a career for anyone not already steeped in racing, very unlikely father to son, you are misinformed.


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## McGrools (7 December 2021)

Clodagh said:



			I absolutely love her post race interviews, at least she shows a bit of enthusiam and love for the sport and the horse.
		
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i agree totally. The racing bunch arent generally blessed with natural charisma with camera skills. It makes me cringe when the presenters ram the mike into the faces of the connections and most of them look they wish the ground would swallow them up! Racing needed an eloquent enthusiastic jockey to make the tv shows a bit more appealing.


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## stangs (7 December 2021)

Elf On A Shelf said:



			she talks like a 7yo child who has just jumped her first cross pole clear round on Twinkletoes the pony?
		
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I for one think it’s lovely that there are still equestrian professionals out there who haven’t succumbed to the “another day at the workplace”/“it’s cool to not care” attitude.


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## Clodagh (7 December 2021)

Elf On A Shelf said:



			she talks like a 7yo child who has just jumped her first cross pole clear round on Twinkletoes the pony?.
		
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Much as you are of course fully entitled to your opinion I think the reception she got at Sandown shows that the ignorant public, who racing needs on side, think she’s great. I love that she actually seems to like the horse.


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## ester (7 December 2021)

And in other equestrian sports I'd say quite a lot of competitors are as effusive about their mounts as they would have been as a 7 year old about twinkletoes. I'm struggling to see why that is such a bad thing when we are essentially just using horses for our own pleasure.


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## Rowreach (7 December 2021)

ester said:



			And in other equestrian sports I'd say quite a lot of competitors are as effusive about their mounts as they would have been as a 7 year old about twinkletoes. I'm struggling to see why that is such a bad thing when we are essentially just using horses for our own pleasure.
		
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I think that's how we should all feel when we get off our horses.


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## teapot (7 December 2021)

ester said:



			And in other equestrian sports I'd say quite a lot of competitors are as effusive about their mounts as they would have been as a 7 year old about twinkletoes. I'm struggling to see why that is such a bad thing when we are essentially just using horses for our own pleasure.
		
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Rowreach said:



			I think that's how we should all feel when we get off our horses.
		
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I was going to say how is it any different to CDJ gushing about Pumpkin post Tokyo tests and putting her medal around his ears? Or Laura Collett and London 52? Oh wait, it isn't...


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## splashgirl45 (7 December 2021)

well if frost is a danger on the racecourse, the BHA, stewards etc are not doing their job properly so lets go after them,  oh its ok they are mainly men in the old boys club.  this whole thing stinks and i am getting angry


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## minesadouble (7 December 2021)

Well I can't agree with the majority on this one. 
She looks like a bloody good actress to me and her interviews are way too 'twee' and over enthusiastic for my liking. 
I'm sure I saw last week that Richard Johnson will be making a statement as part of Dunne's defence. I have the utmost respect for Johnson who is a consummate professional and his opinion will count for a lot for me. 
I've nothing against female jockeys per se but feel Frost could learn a lot from the likes of Nina Carberry and others who went before her.


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## NinjaPony (7 December 2021)

Gosh this is really exposing the bullying cliquey attitudes that seem to be the norm in racing circles. Even if you don’t like a colleague, treating them with civility and a modicum of respect is a bare minimum. I repeat, if Frost has breached rules or ridden dangerously, that is a separate issue that should be dealt with by the proper authorities. The lack of professional attitudes on display does the racing industry no favours at all.


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## Shilasdair (7 December 2021)

splashgirl45 said:



			well if frost is a danger on the racecourse, the BHA, stewards etc are not doing their job properly so lets go after them,  oh its ok they are mainly men in the old boys club.  this whole thing stinks and i am getting angry 

Click to expand...

The fact that the BHA have undertaken an investigation already, and are the ones who have brought Dunne to court, is promising in itself.
Of course, no one is surprised that Dunne's misogynistic buddies (presumably eaten up by jealousy when beaten by a woman) are standing up for him.   But there are many racehorse owners, and trainers who will never let Dunne near their horses again.


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## minesadouble (7 December 2021)

Oh and in defence of Elf I have to say that there is probably no one on this forum who is in a better position to gauge the general feeling of the racing world to an individual high profile jockey, male or female.


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## Rowreach (7 December 2021)

minesadouble said:



			I've nothing against female jockeys per se but feel Frost could learn a lot from the likes of Nina Carberry and others who went before her.
		
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Ah, the ones who just took it on the chin you mean.


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## Elf On A Shelf (7 December 2021)

The valets are sticking up for themselves and setting the record straight about things at Fontwell today.


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## AdorableAlice (7 December 2021)

Rowreach said:



			Ah, the ones who just took it on the chin you mean.
		
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Never assume.  It can make an ass out of you and me.


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## splashgirl45 (7 December 2021)

it doesnt matter if elf doesnt like her in this instance as the BHA are investigating dunne, not frost..  no matter what dunne feels she has done, there is no excuse for bullying, sexist behaviour.  if the jockeys, as a whole, think she is endangering other horses and jockeys, then let them report her to the BHA.  if she hasnt, and its just sour grapes and she is not popular with the boys,  there is still  no excuse for dunnes behaviour.  i wonder if this sort of behaviour has been going on for a long time and frost is the first female to rebel against it..  all this is not good for racing or for my blood pressure....


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## ester (7 December 2021)

I'm not sure it matters what the general racing world feels about her for the purposes of this does it?


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## Clodagh (7 December 2021)

Elf On A Shelf said:



			The valets are sticking up for themselves and setting the record straight about things at Fontwell today.
		
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I didn’t know that valets were in trouble, I thought they were cannon fodder.
I don’t say you, Elf, have to like BF but saying you don’t like her because she’s enthusiastic is silly. IMO.


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## Rowreach (7 December 2021)

AdorableAlice said:



			Never assume.  It can make an ass out of you and me.
		
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I'm assuming nothing, unlike you assuming I know nothing.  I am quite a bit older than Elf and am a long time out of any real involvement in NH racing but I do know what it was like for women jockeys back then.


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## Clodagh (7 December 2021)

But I did think the BHA were hoping it would all go away, hence the big delay u til it was leaked, when they actually set a date. 
only my impression and possibly quite wrong.


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## Shilasdair (7 December 2021)

Elf On A Shelf said:



			The valets are sticking up for themselves and setting the record straight about things at Fontwell today.
		
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That's a response to something - where's the original article for context, please?


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## Elf On A Shelf (7 December 2021)

https://www.racingpost.com/news/lat...or-bryony-frost-in-wake-of-allegations/525935


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## Rowreach (7 December 2021)

Shilasdair said:



			That's a response to something - where's the original article for context, please?
		
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Chris Maude told the hearing that three of the valets had refused to work for her at Fontwell (Piper/Piper/Sinfield), so it's on record (ie not something made up by the Sun or the RP).


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## Shilasdair (7 December 2021)

Elf On A Shelf said:



https://www.racingpost.com/news/lat...or-bryony-frost-in-wake-of-allegations/525935

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Elfie, that doesn't make sense.
In the article it says that Chris Maude stated his employees (Piper, Piper and Sinfield) refused to work for Frost at Fontwell - but the response you posted above is from a Daniel Fortt - so presumably a different firm entirely?


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## ycbm (7 December 2021)

Elf On A Shelf said:



			With regards to the Virtual Grand National tweet Dunne put out - he was the only one stupid enough to put down in written words, in the public domain what the majority of people that work in racing (all parts of racing) were thinking.
		
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The only thing I can think when i read this is what a vile industry you must work in. 
.


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## splashgirl45 (7 December 2021)

its getting more and more bizarre,  makes racing look bad


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## Rowreach (7 December 2021)

ycbm said:



			The only thing I can think when i read this is what a vile industry you must work in.
.
		
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It's definitely not a glowing indictment of many of the people involved in it, certainly.


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## MotherOfChickens (7 December 2021)

splashgirl45 said:



			its getting more and more bizarre,  makes racing look bad
		
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nah, makes it look like the shower of shite it is behind the scenes that it’s always been .


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## AdorableAlice (7 December 2021)

Rowreach said:



			I'm assuming nothing, unlike you assuming I know nothing.  I am quite a bit older than Elf and am a long time out of any real involvement in NH racing but I do know what it was like for women jockeys back then.
		
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You made a statement that Nina Carberry and other lady riders 'took it on the chin'.  It is an unquantified statement and therefore assumption, unless of course, you personally know the lady riders and can speak for them and they are happy for you to publicise their experiences within their working environment.  Making assumptions in any sphere has pitfalls and needs serious thought before being done.


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## DiNozzo (7 December 2021)

minesadouble said:



			Well I can't agree with the majority on this one.
She looks like a bloody good actress to me and her interviews are way too 'twee' and over enthusiastic for my liking.
I'm sure I saw last week that Richard Johnson will be making a statement as part of Dunne's defence. I have the utmost respect for Johnson who is a consummate professional and his opinion will count for a lot for me.
I've nothing against female jockeys per se but feel Frost could learn a lot from the likes of Nina Carberry and others who went before her.
		
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So just because you don't like her means that Dunne threatening to put her through a wing is okay?


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## Rowreach (7 December 2021)

AdorableAlice said:



			You made a statement that Nina Carberry and other lady riders 'took it on the chin'.  It is an unquantified statement and therefore assumption, unless of course, you personally know the lady riders and can speak for them and they are happy for you to publicise their experiences within their working environment.  Making assumptions in any sphere has pitfalls and needs serious thought before being done.
		
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I am almost as gobsmacked by this post from you as I have been in the past by some of the incredible and insensitive assumptions you have made on this forum in the past.


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## Old school (7 December 2021)

Looking from a distance, this whole investigation is very odd. In that, a female suffers bullying at work in a particular industry. Normally, we all agree that it should not be tolerated and the perpetrators be punished. But some with deeper knowledge are not sympathetic. Does she provoke people? What causes folks to have so little sympathy? His (Dunne) behaviour is appalling and we can all read it and then he also admits it. Should be case closed. But no, it is still not resonating within the industry that Bryony has been wronged. Whatever the further info is that I cannot see, it seems to mysteriously place the blame back on her too. Will it surface or, will she have been bullied but still be presented as part of the problem. The conspiracy theorist in me wonders, who had someone's ear and why.....


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## minesadouble (7 December 2021)

DiNozzo said:



			So just because you don't like her means that Dunne threatening to put her through a wing is okay?
		
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In exceptional circumstances in the heat of the moment human beings say unacceptable things which they would never say in a calm and logical state of mind.


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## ester (7 December 2021)

So it's ok?


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## Old school (7 December 2021)

Rowreach said:



			I am almost as gobsmacked by this post from you as I have been in the past by some of the incredible and insensitive assumptions you have made on this forum in the past.
		
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Having a dull evening here, so re read the thread on page 4. I kind of picked it up that you were saying previous female jockeys may not have spoken up.....for whatever reason..... not fully understanding the feedback you have gotten.


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## stangs (7 December 2021)

minesadouble said:



			In exceptional circumstances in the heat of the moment human beings say unacceptable things which they would never say in a calm and logical state of mind.
		
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See, if I were to have had a bad day, and then came on here and said that I'm going to shank [insert HHO forum goer] the minute they come to my end of the country, somehow I don't think there'd be many people coming to my defence.


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## Mrs. Jingle (7 December 2021)

Let's face it folks, the bottom line is no matter what bullying and threats were made to her it is her own fault as she obvously 'asked for it' and nobody she works with likes her anyway. So that's it - case closed, nothing to see here,  back to work lads. 😠


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## tristar (7 December 2021)

minesadouble said:



			In exceptional circumstances in the heat of the moment human beings say unacceptable things which they would never say in a calm and logical state of mind.
		
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they should learn to control themselves


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## Old school (7 December 2021)

Mrs Jingle said:



			Let's face it folks, the bottom line is no matter what bullying and threats were made to her it is her own fault as she obvously 'asked for it' and nobody she works with likes her anyway. So that's it - case closed, nothing to see here,  back to work lads. 😠
		
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Exactly, it is so odd. I cannot work it out at all.


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## Shilasdair (7 December 2021)

_While Dunne did admit to being naked in front of Frost, he rejected the allegation she made last week that he “shook himself” in front of her.

When Dunne said: “It’s not against the law to shake yourself, is it?”, Weston replied: “I’m not joking, Mr Dunne.”_

https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/ra...e-but-denies-charges-at-bha-hearing-1.4749347

What a prince of a man.


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## Clodagh (7 December 2021)

Whistle blowers always get the blame it seems.
So in the office, if you are narky about the photocopier it’s OK for a fellow employee to threaten you with violence and wave his Willy at you? I’ve led a sheltered life!


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## Andie02 (7 December 2021)

tristar said:



			they should learn to control themselves
		
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Agree.

And senior jockeys should set a good example.


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## Fred66 (7 December 2021)

The BBC article reporting on the ongoing evidence certainly throws some of Frosts account in a different light (see extract below) It also seems that there was sufficient awkwardness between Dunne and Frost to warrant Frosts father trying to arrange a meeting to clear the air to which Dunne agreed but Frost declined.
Individuals perceptions can vary and whilst Frost may feel that she is being picked on it is possible that she is just over sensitive.
Please also note the jockeys are not work colleagues they are sportsmen/women who are competing against each other, sledging / banter is likely to be the norm.


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## Rowreach (7 December 2021)

Shilasdair said:



			What a prince of a man.
		
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Did you see it too?


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## Shilasdair (7 December 2021)

Rowreach said:



			Did you see it too?

Click to expand...

Like most men, I imagine he was inordinately proud of very little.

Personally, I think that behaviour is an implied thread of sexual violence.


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## NinjaPony (7 December 2021)

Fred66 said:



			The BBC article reporting on the ongoing evidence certainly throws some of Frosts account in a different light (see extract below) It also seems that there was sufficient awkwardness between Dunne and Frost to warrant Frosts father trying to arrange a meeting to clear the air to which Dunne agreed but Frost declined.
Individuals perceptions can vary and whilst Frost may feel that she is being picked on it is possible that she is just over sensitive.
Please also note the jockeys are not work colleagues they are sportsmen/women who are competing against each other, sledging / banter is likely to be the norm.

View attachment 83880

Click to expand...

Defence on the grounds of ‘well he was always nice to me,” isn’t much of a defence. One you see time and time again though. His good behaviour towards her doesn’t mean he didn’t behave badly towards Frost.


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## Rowreach (7 December 2021)

Shilasdair said:



			Personally, I think that behaviour is an implied thread of sexual violence.
		
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Indeed it is.


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## stangs (7 December 2021)

Fred66 said:



			Please also note the jockeys are not work colleagues they are sportsmen/women who are competing against each other, sledging / banter is likely to be the norm.
		
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Ah yes, did everyone forget that moment in this year’s Olympics where one of the divers threatened to drown the diver that got gold? It was the day after one of the showjumpers went around flashing his female competitors. And in the meantime, Valegro was on Horsebook posting about how TSF Dalera had about as much talent as a three legged donkey...


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## ycbm (7 December 2021)

Fred66 said:



			Please also note the jockeys are not work colleagues they are sportsmen/women who are competing against each other, sledging / banter is likely to be the norm.
		
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"Banter", now where have we heard that term recently?   Oh yes, just before 16 senior members of management of Yorkshire Cricket Club were forced to resign over failing to listen to players who were sick of the "banter".
.


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## Shilasdair (7 December 2021)

NinjaPony said:



			Defence on the grounds of ‘well he was always nice to me,” isn’t much of a defence. One you see time and time again though. His good behaviour towards her doesn’t mean he didn’t behave badly towards Frost.
		
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Firstly, calling someone some of the names reported (I won't repeat them here because of the HHO swearing rules) is not banter in any way, shape or form.  Nor is threatening to ride someone into the wings to injure them.

And the 'Well he never raped me' or 'If only we had agreed afterwards it was consensual, it would be fine'.

Frost can't win - if she stands up to Dunne despite being upset,  the men opine that she should have 'hid away'.  If she doesn't agree to meet her abuser, then she is being 'oversensitive'.

*Women have the right not to be abused, threatened, not to have penises waved at them, and can decide themselves if they are upset or not.*


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## Rowreach (7 December 2021)

Any minute now, there will be an apology issued along the lines of "I am sorry you got all upset by what I said".


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## Shilasdair (7 December 2021)

Rowreach said:



			Any minute now, there will be an apology issued along the lines of "I am sorry you got all upset by what I said".
		
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I think you mean 'I am sorry IF you all got upset by what I said'.

The implication being it's the victim's fault.


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## Fred66 (7 December 2021)

NinjaPony said:



			Defence on the grounds of ‘well he was always nice to me,” isn’t much of a defence. One you see time and time again though. His good behaviour towards her doesn’t mean he didn’t behave badly towards Frost.
		
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This was not what I was inferring.

The point is that Frost stated that other women jockeys would not back her because they wanted to protect their own backs. This report contras that albeit I’m sure some will say it corroborates it.
Additionally Frosts father asked one of the senior stewards to arrange a meeting to sort it out  between them but Frost withdrew at the last minute.
Which indicates that the issue was not one sided that there was ongoing animosity on both sides. Surely if her father thought that it was one sided bullying he would have reported it ?
As I said earlier if there was ongoing bullying then he should face the consequences but disagreements and heated words do not constitute bullying. Reading some of the reports he received threats and intimidation as well.
Please do not assume that women are automatically the weaker sex.


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## NinjaPony (7 December 2021)

Fred66 said:



			Please do not assume that women are automatically the weaker sex.
		
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Would love to know how you drew that conclusion from what I’ve posted?


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## Fred66 (7 December 2021)

NinjaPony said:



			Would love to know how you drew that conclusion from what I’ve posted?
		
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The final comment was not specifically aimed at your comment more at a number of other posts within this thread.

Whilst the evidence heard so far shows he has not behaved well I am not yet convinced that the evidence shows him guilty of bullying.

If nothing else comes from this case hopefully it highlights that the culture needs to change.


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## bonny (7 December 2021)

Fred66 said:



			The final comment was not specifically aimed at your comment more at a number of other posts within this thread.

Whilst the evidence heard so far shows he has not behaved well I am not yet convinced that the evidence shows him guilty of bullying.

If nothing else comes from this case hopefully it highlights that the culture needs to change.
		
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The definition of bullying is if the victim feels bullied. It’s not up to you to decide.


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## Fred66 (7 December 2021)

bonny said:



			The definition of bullying is if the victim feels bullied. It’s not up to you to decide.
		
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I‘m not deciding, thats what the hearing is about.

However the if definition of it follows other similar definitions then it’s likely to be what any reasonable person would think. Otherwise it’s impossible to try and avoid bullying unless you avoid any interaction at all, as we are all individuals and all feel and react differently.


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## Clodagh (8 December 2021)

IMO it’s actually irrelevant in this case if Frost is likeable or not. She may be the biggest PITA both sides of the Irish Sea but if what was said was said, which no one seems to dispute, it’s wrong.


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## ycbm (8 December 2021)

bonny said:



			The definition of bullying is if the victim feels bullied. It’s not up to you to decide.
		
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Sorry Bonny, I don't think that's true.  You only need to see how many times people on this forum say they have been bullied when actually all that's happened is that they have been disagreed with.  It's also possible for gaslighting to result in a victim who swears blind they don't feel bullied when they have been.

I think it diminishes what's happened to Bryony Frost to say it's bullying just because she feels bullied.


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## TheOldTrout (8 December 2021)

ycbm said:



			Sorry Bonny, I don't think that's true.  You only need to see how many times people on this forum say they have been bullied when actually all that's happened is that they have been disagreed with.  It's also possible for gaslighting to result in a victim who swears blind they don't feel bullied when they have been.

I think it diminishes what's happened to Bryony Frost to say it's bullying just because she feels bullied.
		
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Bonny's right when referring to, eg, workplace bullying. The perception of the person on the receiving end (I hate the word victim) is what counts, not the intent of the perpetrator. It does away with the 'banter' excuse. I think you quoted the case of racism in Yorkshire cricket club earlier - the perception of the cricketers who believed they were the targets of racist bullying means it was bullying, not the banter claimed by the other players.


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## Shilasdair (8 December 2021)

Fred66 said:



			Whilst the evidence heard so far shows he has not behaved well I am not yet convinced that the evidence shows him guilty of bullying.

If nothing else comes from this case hopefully it highlights that the culture needs to change.
		
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If calling a woman a f****** w****, a f****** c***, waving your penis at her, and threatening to physically hurt her by riding her into the wings isn't bullying, I'd be interested to hear your definition?


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## ycbm (8 December 2021)

TheOldTrout said:



			Bonny's right when referring to, eg, workplace bullying. The perception of the person on the receiving end (I hate the word victim) is what counts, not the intent of the perpetrator
		
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I don't think that is always true,  sorry.  I have known people claim their boss is bullying them when what the boss is doing is following the rules to sort out an issue of poor performance.  The "victim" feels bullied,  but isn't. 
.


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## ycbm (8 December 2021)

Shilasdair said:



			If calling a woman a f****** w****, a f****** c***, waving your penis at her, and threatening to physically hurt her by riding her into the wings isn't bullying, I'd be interested to hear your definition?
		
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I think you might have a point there Shils 👍


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## The Bouncing Bog Trotter (8 December 2021)

ycbm said:



			I don't think that is always true, sorry. I have known people claim their boss is bullying them when what the boss is doing is following the rules to sort out an issue of poor performance. The "victim" feels bullied, but isn't.
		
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So much this - in nearly every case of bullying I had to deal with in the workplace, it was more a case of a manager attempting to manage a poor performer.


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## Rowreach (8 December 2021)

The Bouncing Bog Trotter said:



			So much this - in nearly every case of bullying I had to deal with in the workplace, it was more a case of a manager *attempting to manage* a poor performer.
		
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Which begs the question of why they are not managing them properly, and why the employee feels "bullied" and not "managed".

In my experience a lot of undesirable behaviour in the workplace stems from crap management, and not dealing with raised issues before they escalate.

I know it is easy to shout "bully" just because you disagree with someone else's pov, but we really need to start giving a bit more credence to situations where concerns are raised and nothing is done to establish why someone feels strongly enough to say something.  It really isn't easy being a victim of this sort of thing, and it's even harder to stand up and call it out.

I see Gwent police are issuing an apology today ......


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## The Bouncing Bog Trotter (8 December 2021)

In reply to Rowreach  - the "attempting" was stated because the manager was trying to manage the situation but was being thwarted by the employee's accusations. Yes, some of the situations were caused by crap management and some were caused by a manager being very reluctant to deal with a tricky employee because they knew they were likely to be accused of bullying. However, a significant number were employees pushing back on well deserved performance plans which in many cases were constructive and were about positively trying to work with the employee to close the gap between required and actual performance, Bullying is unacceptable in any situation - workplace or in leisure or sport, but sadly not every accusation of bullying is genuine, and this needs to be recognised. 

As someone who stood up to workplace bullying (as a witness) and whistleblew to the detriment of my career and personal life, I do feel aggrieved by those who make unfounded accusations - it makes those with genuine bullying issues have to work even harder to get the issue resolved in what is already likely to be a hostile environment.


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## Rowreach (8 December 2021)

The Bouncing Bog Trotter said:



			In reply to Rowreach  - the "attempting" was stated because the manager was trying to manage the situation but was being thwarted by the employee's accusations. Yes, some of the situations were caused by crap management and some were caused by a manager being very reluctant to deal with a tricky employee because they knew they were likely to be accused of bullying. However, a significant number were employees pushing back on well deserved performance plans which in many cases were constructive and were about positively trying to work with the employee to close the gap between required and actual performance, Bullying is unacceptable in any situation - workplace or in leisure or sport, but sadly not every accusation of bullying is genuine, and this needs to be recognised.

As someone who stood up to workplace bullying (as a witness) and whistleblew to the detriment of my career and personal life, I do feel aggrieved by those who make unfounded accusations - it makes those with genuine bullying issues have to work even harder to get the issue resolved in what is already likely to be a hostile environment.
		
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I totally agree.


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## tristar (8 December 2021)

well i don`t think she is over sensitive, perhaps dunne was raised with different manners, attitude`s in a society where men do things like he does and people turn a blind eye

if everything he did was true, it goes beyond  bullying, exposing one`s self is sexual harassment, threatening to put someone through a wing and do them damage is intimidation with threats of violence to the person

my experience of men who expose themselves is that they have done it before

she did the right thing not meeting up with him, who in their right mind wants to sit across the table with an abuser, she is better to walk away and not get in deeper, and expose herself to a trauma that may well haunt her for life

i was once offered a meeting with an abuser, i declined, i preferred to keep the wall of my personal space intact, and could not see how anything good for me would come out of it


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## tristar (8 December 2021)

and if her riding is upsetting the other jockeys why have the stewards not taken action, with camera views poss from every angle


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## stangs (8 December 2021)

One would think that a man who's angered by someone's allegedly dangerous riding - which could seriously harm both horse and jockey - wouldn't threaten to do the same in response. Surely wanting to "ride someone into the wing" implies not really caring about her horse's welfare either?


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## Parrotperson (8 December 2021)

minesadouble said:



			Oh and in defence of Elf I have to say that there is probably no one on this forum who is in a better position to gauge the general feeling of the racing world to an individual high profile jockey, male or female.
		
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indeed. And that’s very worrying. If Ms Frost was known for riding dangerously why hasn’t action been taken by multiple stewards or the BHA?

Nicholls and the owners stand by her. That’s good enough for me.


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## teapot (8 December 2021)

https://www.racingpost.com/news/lat...t-bullying-claims-against-robbie-dunne/526091

'If something needs to change, that's for the future, that's a policy matter, a political matter. You can only judge Mr Dunne against the present weighing room'.

My reading of that is Roderick Moore thinks what happens in the weighing room isn't an issue/is ok because it continues to happens? Hmmmm. Times a' changing chaps.


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## Andie02 (8 December 2021)

An announcement has been made on Racing TV that a decision will be made by 12 noon tomorrow.


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## Velcrobum (8 December 2021)

teapot said:



https://www.racingpost.com/news/lat...t-bullying-claims-against-robbie-dunne/526091

'If something needs to change, that's for the future, that's a policy matter, a political matter. You can only judge Mr Dunne against the present weighing room'.

My reading of that is Roderick Moore thinks what happens in the weighing room isn't an issue/is ok because it continues to happens? Hmmmm. Times a' changing chaps.
		
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That is not the best of defence sIMHO. Just because it used to be OK does not mean it is now. It is interesting to see how sides have been taken and if this will impact on those currently riding. I can foresee some owners not wanting his supporters on their horses if he is found guilty of some or all the charges he has pleaded not guilty to. I understand some not wanting to be drawn into this so have sat firmly on the fence. I suspect the towel dropping and willy waving might bite him on the bum so to speak.


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## ycbm (8 December 2021)

Velcrobum said:



			That is not the best of defence sIMHO. Just because it used to be OK does not mean it is now. It is interesting to see how sides have been taken and if this will impact on those currently riding. I can foresee some owners not wanting his supporters on their horses if he is found guilty of some or all the charges he has pleaded not guilty to. I understand some not wanting to be drawn into this so have sat firmly on the fence. I suspect the towel dropping and willy waving might bite him on the bum so to speak.
		
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It's a very odd defence isn't it?   I'm trying to think of a parallel to show just how odd a defence it is and coming up short.  
.


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## Crazy_cat_lady (8 December 2021)

This has made me remember an old YO, when I expressed interest in potentially working on a racing yard warning me to steer well clear due to the amount of bullying that goes on. She was no pearl clutcher either. 

It sounds very much an old boys club, it's interesting he is still getting rides including one on Saturday in a televised meeting and nearly won. I'm surprised trainers aren't distancing themselves from using him until this is dealt with, as it just adds to the boys club image... 

There are several female jockeys now, I'm surprised they have to go into the men's room to access the valets - why can't a valet be set up in their changing room? What other work place would expect a female to walk into a men's changing room?

I get he was possibly aggrieved by what he perceived "dangerous" riding but you just don't use those words. You don't see stories in F1 about Hamilton and Verstappen who are bitter rivals swearing at each other and calling each other abusive terms

Surely he needs some sort of punishment, racing is going to look very bad if he breezes away unpunished


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## teapot (8 December 2021)

Crazy_cat_lady said:



			I get he was possibly aggrieved by what he perceived "dangerous" riding but you just don't use those words. You don't see stories in F1 about Hamilton and Verstappen who are bitter rivals swearing at each other and calling each other abusive terms
		
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I'm not so sure that's true! They're happy enough to try and take each other out at 200mph...


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## AFishOutOfWater (8 December 2021)

Crazy_cat_lady said:



			This has made me remember an old YO, when I expressed interest in potentially working on a racing yard warning me to steer well clear due to the amount of bullying that goes on. She was no pearl clutcher either.

It sounds very much an old boys club, it's interesting he is still getting rides including one on Saturday in a televised meeting and nearly won. I'm surprised trainers aren't distancing themselves from using him until this is dealt with, as it just adds to the boys club image...

There are several female jockeys now, I'm surprised they have to go into the men's room to access the valets - why can't a valet be set up in their changing room? What other work place would expect a female to walk into a men's changing room?

I get he was possibly aggrieved by what he perceived "dangerous" riding but you just don't use those words. You don't see stories in F1 about Hamilton and Verstappen who are bitter rivals swearing at each other and calling each other abusive terms

Surely he needs some sort of punishment, racing is going to look very bad if he breezes away unpunished
		
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Hmmm, F1 has had more than its fair share of punchups on and off the track over the years, and verbal abuse ....


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## ycbm (8 December 2021)

Slow.sleighbells said:



			Hmmm, F1 has had more than its fair share of punchups on and off the track over the years, and verbal abuse ....
		
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I'm not sure any of them have threatened to run the other off the track in a future race,  have they? 
.


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## Fred66 (8 December 2021)

ycbm said:



			I'm not sure any of them have threatened to run the other off the track in a future race,  have they?
.
		
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Not sure, however its largely irrelevant. From numerous sources the type of threat offered by Dunne to Frost is common place within the weighing room and whilst this should not be acceptable and changes should be made, if this is the case it would be unfair to punish a single individual.
If Frosts allegations of persistent harassment by Dunne are true then obviously that is different.
The BHA need to put their house in order.


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## ycbm (8 December 2021)

Fred66 said:



			Not sure, however its largely irrelevant. From numerous sources the type of threat offered by Dunne to Frost is common place within the weighing room and whilst this should not be acceptable and changes should be made, if this is the case it would be unfair to punish a single individual.
If Frosts allegations of persistent harassment by Dunne are true then obviously that is different.
The BHA need to put their house in order.
		
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Honestly Fred,  it's about bloody time someone was brave enough to insist on a proper case being taken against _someone_ if racing really is that toxic,  because its the only way it will stop,  isn't it? 

Well done Bryony for taking the risk, in my view.  This will mark the beginning of what sounds like a hugely overdue change in racing, whether he is found guilty of the charges he hasn't already admitted  or not.  
.


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## Fred66 (8 December 2021)

ycbm said:



			Honestly Fred,  it's about bloody time someone was brave enough to insist on a proper case being taken against _someone_ if racing really is that toxic,  because its the only way it will stop,  isn't it?

Well done Bryony for taking the risk, in my view.  This will mark the beginning of what sounds like a hugely overdue change in racing, whether he is found guilty of the charges he hasn't already admitted  or not. 
.
		
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Agree that the culture of the weighing rooms appears to need dragging into the 21st century but if Dunnes behaviour is typical of the overall culture and he is no worse no better than the others then I personally think it wrong for him to be made a scape goat. (caveats as before)
The authorities that have allowed this culture to flourish are the ones that should be on trial and should be ensuring that this attitude is consigned to the past.


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## ycbm (8 December 2021)

But they weren't going to,  so what was Bryony supposed to do,  just put up with it? 

It sounds like she's done the whole industry a favour.  
.


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## honetpot (8 December 2021)

Fred66 said:



			Not sure, however its largely irrelevant. From numerous sources the type of threat offered by Dunne to Frost is common place within the weighing room and whilst this should not be acceptable and changes should be made, if this is the case it would be unfair to punish a single individual.
If Frosts allegations of persistent harassment by Dunne are true then obviously that is different.
The BHA need to put their house in order.
		
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Really, so its OK to threaten you injure someone, just because it's common occurrence, and also have the means and opportunity to do so. It's a workplace, it just so happens that the worker has 500kg to control at speed to wipe someone out and give them life changing injuries.
  The irony is that racing depends on female workers, a lot do stables, travel and ride out, the grunt work, as soon as it's light to last stables, so before he gets the chance to but his bum on the plate, someone has done the basic graft for him. 
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2..._medium&utm_source=Twitter#Echobox=1638994196
   I feel that the women who support this industry behind the scenes are basically being treated as fools, or worse, and used as window dressing, they can play as long as they stay in their place, but step out of it, and expect to be called vile names and worse.


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## Fellewell (9 December 2021)

I don't doubt that this is a case of the 'princess' versus the MCP but she has had a ban for careless riding and I think this is one of his grievances. A lot of bickering could be cleared up by an outright disqualification for interference. Jockeys get a ban and lose a few days pay but the win still stands. A demotion that affected trainers , owners and the punters might focus the mind on less drifting and carelessness and more attention on actually seeing a gap.
As for the name calling, well these are Irish terms of endearment. Who can forget: _You're a bum, you're a punk, you're an old slut on junk, lying there almost dead with that drip in that bed. You scumbag you maggot you cheap lousy (mixture of beef and pork with breadcrumbs and sliced onions) _
Keeping it seasonal


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## Andie02 (9 December 2021)

https://www.racingpost.com/news/lat...-charges-in-bryony-frost-bullying-case/526196

Good news so far.


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## Velcrobum (9 December 2021)

He has been found guilty
https://www.racingpost.com/news/lat...-charges-in-bryony-frost-bullying-case/526196


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## bonny (9 December 2021)

I don’t see they had any choice but to find him guilty, I just hope he gets a serious ban not a rap on the knuckles.


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## Andie02 (9 December 2021)

He is booked to ride at Cheltenham on Saturday for his brother on a horse called 'Pretty Little Liar' .......apart from 'Pretty' ......how very apt !!!


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## Parrotperson (9 December 2021)

Fellewell said:



			I don't doubt that this is a case of the 'princess' versus the MCP but she has had a ban for careless riding and I think this is one of his grievances. A lot of bickering could be cleared up by an outright disqualification for interference. Jockeys get a ban and lose a few days pay but the win still stands. A demotion that affected trainers , owners and the punters might focus the mind on less drifting and carelessness and more attention on actually seeing a gap.
As for the name calling, well these are Irish terms of endearment. Who can forget: _You're a bum, you're a punk, you're an old slut on junk, lying there almost dead with that drip in that bed. You scumbag you maggot you cheap lousy (mixture of beef and pork with breadcrumbs and sliced onions) _
Keeping it seasonal 

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But then make me a jockey inc dunne who hasn’t had a ban for careless riding at some point!

are you referring to fa***ts?! 😂😂😂👏


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## Velcrobum (9 December 2021)

The updated report and it is very damming about Dunne.

https://www.racingpost.com/news/lat...-charges-in-bryony-frost-bullying-case/526196


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## Velcrobum (9 December 2021)

As he has been found guilty of all four of the more serious charges the three others of which one he had pleaded guilty to, have been set aside. The jockeys that backed him have all been criticised by the panel as well!! Awaiting to see how long he gets banned for and it will be interesting to see if he gets warned off as well.

Just seen this "The panel is set to hear submissions on penalties from the BHA and from Dunne's legal representatives after 2pm."


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## Steerpike (9 December 2021)

It's just been on the lunchtime news.


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## Shilasdair (9 December 2021)

Just read the Racing Post article, and three points stood out;

Dunne was clearly not believed by the panel - '_unable to accept Mr Dunne's sweep of denials, criticisms and his reasoning_' 
The panel was clearly also unimpressed by the witnesses who spoke on his behalf '_we have real concern that what was referred to by Mr Weston as the 'weighing room culture' is deep-rooted and coercive, and in itself is not conducive to the good health and the development of of modern day race-riding_ '.
In contrast Frost was found to be '_truthful, careful and compelling_'
A great result for women in racing - and more widely.


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## Rowreach (9 December 2021)

Shilasdair said:



			Just read the Racing Post article, and three points stood out;

Dunne was clearly not believed by the panel - '_unable to accept Mr Dunne's sweep of denials, criticisms and his reasoning_'
The panel was clearly also unimpressed by the witnesses who spoke on his behalf '_we have real concern that what was referred to by Mr Weston as the 'weighing room culture' is deep-rooted and coercive, and in itself is not conducive to the good health and the development of of modern day race-riding_ '.
In contrast Frost was found to be '_truthful, careful and compelling_'
*A great result for women in racing - and more widely*.
		
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BF has done more for women in sport than she will probably ever realise.

I am sickened by the women sticking up for Dunne, even now.


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## Mrs. Jingle (9 December 2021)

Fellewell said:



			As for the name calling, well these are Irish terms of endearment.
		
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Really???? Well I don't know which part of Ireland you are from or who you mix with, but I can assure you if anyone around this way called me by the names that little gobshite of a jockey used they would have pretty soon regretted it! And not at my hand either. We do have a few Irish gentlemen you know, they don't all behave like this gobshite did to that young woman, nor do they use the language quoted from that song that is supposedly about a down and out alcoholic and his wife!


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## bonny (9 December 2021)

Shilasdair said:



			Just read the Racing Post article, and three points stood out;

Dunne was clearly not believed by the panel - '_unable to accept Mr Dunne's sweep of denials, criticisms and his reasoning_'
The panel was clearly also unimpressed by the witnesses who spoke on his behalf '_we have real concern that what was referred to by Mr Weston as the 'weighing room culture' is deep-rooted and coercive, and in itself is not conducive to the good health and the development of of modern day race-riding_ '.
In contrast Frost was found to be '_truthful, careful and compelling_'
A great result for women in racing - and more widely.
		
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I think she’s been incredibly brave doing this but I worry that it won’t end well for either of them. I suspect it will lead to sweeping changes both in actions and hopefully attitudes which is so clearly needed but I fear she will pay a hard price for her bravery.
Racing must be about the last industry where men get to act like they do and everybody turns a blind eye.


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## Shilasdair (9 December 2021)

bonny said:



			I think she’s been incredibly brave doing this but I worry that it won’t end well for either of them. I suspect it will lead to sweeping changes both in actions and hopefully attitudes which is so clearly needed but I fear she will pay a hard price for her bravery.
Racing must be about the last industry where men get to act like they do and everybody turns a blind eye.
		
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This result indicates that no, men don't get to act like they do - no blind eye has been turned here.   
And hopefully, that's the start of change.


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## bonny (9 December 2021)

Shilasdair said:



			This result indicates that no, men don't get to act like they do - no blind eye has been turned here.  
And hopefully, that's the start of change.
		
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I think the lack of support that she got shows how everyone was turning a blind eye, it shows how backward thinking racing is that other jockeys couldn’t see that things had to change.


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## Shilasdair (9 December 2021)

bonny said:



			I think the lack of support that she got shows how everyone was turning a blind eye, it shows how backward thinking racing is that other jockeys couldn’t see that things had to change.
		
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I agree that racing needed to be dragged, kicking and screaming, into the 21st century.

This BBC report is even more damning of the patriarchal culture in racing - BBC news


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## honetpot (9 December 2021)

I think a lot of women go into the racing industry, because they love horses, and it is one of the few equine industries where you get a set rate of pay, and it's usually steady work. Even then women are routinely treated badly, my friend had to fight for her maternity pay, even though she was entitled to it, I think there is a background under currant that women are being done a favour.


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## paddy555 (9 December 2021)

Fellewell said:



			As for the name calling, well these are Irish terms of endearment. Who can forget: _You're a bum, you're a punk, you're an old slut on junk, lying there almost dead with that drip in that bed. You scumbag you maggot you cheap lousy (mixture of beef and pork with breadcrumbs and sliced onions) _
Keeping it seasonal 

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my favourite Christmas song of all time. Lets hope they never remove the F word. Your mixture of beef etc doesn't fit in very well with the tune.


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## tristar (9 December 2021)

they have demeaned her and dragged her down into a hearing, but i hope she feels she comes out of it with some justice and that it was  worth it, how could it have gone any longer?

having known men like this it always amazes me how they go on doing their thing in full knowledge of everyone around them.

rise above it gal, well done for having the courage


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## Shilasdair (9 December 2021)

I see some jockeys (Geraghty, Cawley) are crawling out of the woodwork to say that THEY never had a problem in the weighing room, THEY never experienced misogynism, that the weighing room was, for THEM, a great place to be, THEY have never had a problem with men waving penises at them, either presumably.

While other jockeys (Kelleway) are saying it is '40 years too late'.

If only I could work out who were the lucky penis-owners from the above....

They can't help themselves, can they, the fools?


----------



## Andie02 (9 December 2021)

18 months ban, 3 months suspended announced on Racing TV


----------



## Pearlsasinger (9 December 2021)

Definite echoes of Yorkshire Cricket Club in that witnesses simply could not see that was happening was wrong.


----------



## Velcrobum (9 December 2021)

I wonder if that ban extends to Ireland I am assuming there is reciprocity. I think he got off fairly lightly given he was found guilty of 4 separate charges. No financial penalty either!! I wonder if BHA is going to have to have a steward supervising the weighing room at all times to pull the other misogynists up on their behaviour. Perhaps they need to adopt the mindset of "would I like my mum, wife or daughter spoken to like that?"


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## Andie02 (9 December 2021)

Velcrobum said:



			I wonder if that ban extends to Ireland I am assuming there is reciprocity. I think he got off fairly lightly given he was found guilty of 4 separate charges. No financial penalty either!! I wonder if BHA is going to have to have a steward supervising the weighing room at all times to pull the other misogynists up on their behaviour. Perhaps they need to adopt the mindset of "would I like my mum, wife or daughter spoken to like that?"
		
Click to expand...

His legal fees will be extortionate. Agree, he got off lightly.


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## ArklePig (9 December 2021)

Fellewell said:



			I don't doubt that this is a case of the 'princess' versus the MCP but she has had a ban for careless riding and I think this is one of his grievances. A lot of bickering could be cleared up by an outright disqualification for interference. Jockeys get a ban and lose a few days pay but the win still stands. A demotion that affected trainers , owners and the punters might focus the mind on less drifting and carelessness and more attention on actually seeing a gap.
As for the name calling, well these are Irish terms of endearment. Who can forget: _You're a bum, you're a punk, you're an old slut on junk, lying there almost dead with that drip in that bed. You scumbag you maggot you cheap lousy (mixture of beef and pork with breadcrumbs and sliced onions) _
Keeping it seasonal 

Click to expand...



Yeah, no that song was about a miserable emigrant couple who hated each other and their situation. 

Referring to most Irish people by those words, myself included, would earn you a shoe up the hole. 

As for today's judgment- I am delighted. I don't care if Bryony Frost is a thundering b*** or the nicest person in racing. It doesn't matter. What happened to her is never okay, despite some people on this forum seeming to think she had it coming for... *checks notes* being enthusiastic about her job, getting the job done and not taking any sh1t.


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## Andie02 (9 December 2021)

Shilasdair said:



			I see some jockeys (Geraghty, Cawley) are crawling out of the woodwork to say that THEY never had a problem in the weighing room, THEY never experienced misogynism, that the weighing room was, for THEM, a great place to be, THEY have never had a problem with men waving penises at them, either presumably.

While other jockeys (Kelleway) are saying it is '40 years too late'.

If only I could work out who were the lucky penis-owners from the above....

They can't help themselves, can they, the fools?  

Click to expand...


Maybe THEY didn't have problems, or see anything occurring.

Clearly Gay Kellaway DID have problems.


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## Backtoblack (9 December 2021)

Banned for 18 months, good news


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## ycbm (9 December 2021)

Shilasdair said:



			I see some jockeys (Geraghty, Cawley) are crawling out of the woodwork to say that THEY never had a problem in the weighing room, THEY never experienced misogynism, that the weighing room was, for THEM, a great place to be, THEY have never had a problem with men waving penises at them, either presumably.
		
Click to expand...

I've tried to find out who these jockeys are because I had never heard of them and assumed therefore that they had never ridden top flight horses,  so were no threat to the men,  and their experiences weren't as relevant as a woman who had. 

But I can only find male jockeys with those names.  Why do they think their experiences are of any relevance,  when they were part of the very culture that was so ingrained that it never even noticed how toxic it was, and presented its own ingrained toxicity as a defence when finally challenged in a tribunal? 
.


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## ester (9 December 2021)

It's the male jockeys  

it's on the radio 4 hourly news.


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## MotherOfChickens (9 December 2021)

She’s a tough, resilient cookie to take all this on and be riding a winner while the decision was imminent.


----------



## Andie02 (9 December 2021)

ycbm said:



			I've tried to find out who these jockeys are because I had never heard of them and assumed therefore that they had never ridden top flight horses,  so were no threat to the men,  and their experiences weren't as relevant as a woman who had.

But I can only find male jockeys with those names.  Why do they think their experiences are of any relevance,  when they were part of the very culture that was so ingrained that it never even noticed how toxic it was, and presented its own ingrained toxicity as a defence when finally challenged in a tribunal?
.
		
Click to expand...


I cannot believe that you haven't heard of Barry Geraghty, one of the top Irish jockeys, though he has been retired now since July 2019, having last ridden at Cheltenham March 2019 (due to covid).  2nd to Ruby Walsh in the winning most Cheltenham Festival Jockeys table with 43 victories. Alan Cawley is still riding though mainly in the north.
Gay Kellaway has been training for many years.


----------



## Old school (9 December 2021)

Velcrobum said:



			I wonder if that ban extends to Ireland I am assuming there is reciprocity. I think he got off fairly lightly given he was found guilty of 4 separate charges. No financial penalty either!! I wonder if BHA is going to have to have a steward supervising the weighing room at all times to pull the other misogynists up on their behaviour. Perhaps they need to adopt the mindset of "would I like my mum, wife or daughter spoken to like that?"
		
Click to expand...

I think that type of man speaks to all women like that. Once it gets one snigger from an onlooker, they believe that they have support. They are stupid enough to think it is amusing. There are plenty like him, unfortunately. And the racing industry has always fallen short in calling out this behaviour. I wonder how many times Bryony was told 'not to make a fuss'.


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## Velcrobum (9 December 2021)

A quote from the chair of the independent panel a damming observation!!

"In the course of the days of this hearing you have adopted an aggressive attack on her personality in order to seek to justify your actions"


----------



## Rowreach (9 December 2021)

Velcrobum said:



			A quote from the chair of the independent panel a damming observation!!

"In the course of the days of this hearing you have adopted an aggressive attack on her personality in order to seek to justify your actions"

Click to expand...

Ah, this was him giving the other side of the story then


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## Andie02 (9 December 2021)

Andie02 said:



			He is booked to ride at Cheltenham on Saturday for his brother on a horse called 'Pretty Little Liar' .......apart from 'Pretty' ......how very apt !!!
		
Click to expand...

Oh dear, he won't be riding at Cheltenham now, his ban is with immediate effect.


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## AFishOutOfWater (9 December 2021)

Andie02 said:



			he won't be riding at Cheltenham now
		
Click to expand...

Good


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## Smitty (9 December 2021)

ycbm said:



			I've tried to find out who these jockeys are because I had never heard of them and assumed therefore that they had never ridden top flight horses,  so were no threat to the men,  and their experiences weren't as relevant as a woman who had. 

But I can only find male jockeys with those names.  Why do they think their experiences are of any relevance,  when they were part of the very culture that was so ingrained that it never even noticed how toxic it was, and presented its own ingrained toxicity as a defence when finally challenged in a tribunal? 
.
		
Click to expand...

EXACTLY:  they were men🙄!!!


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## Shilasdair (9 December 2021)

Smitty said:



			EXACTLY:  they were men🙄!!!
		
Click to expand...

Thanks, Smitty!

Clearly I am becoming far too subtle in my daemonic old age.


ETA: I particularly liked watching the video of a certain Irish jockey where he says (and I paraphrase) that he didn't see the problem; couples always call each other the likes of 'f****** w****' at home.   Let's all take a minute to feel sorry for whoever he's domestically abusing at home.

Edit 2: Just went to find the video - only to find it had been deleted off Sky Sports; and they have changed the reporting to give Kelleway priority....


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## Tiddlypom (9 December 2021)

Where are the *nod nod, wink wink, we're the ones who really know our stuff about the inside machinations of the racing world, just you wait til you hear the truth* anti Bryony Frost posters now?


----------



## Goldenstar (9 December 2021)

Well that’s the swamp started draining .
18 months is a fair time out of a jockeys career .
Misogynistic bulling with an under tone of sexual violence why should anyone have to put up with that in any circumstance at work or any where .
Good for her to standing up and being counted .


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## teapot (9 December 2021)

This is a beautiful read  https://www.racingpost.com/news/dis...SBxlbP1py0OnW4mYX5kUs0wZZbOPq9zc_rW95ov2swkao


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## Shilasdair (9 December 2021)

teapot said:



			This is a beautiful read  https://www.racingpost.com/news/dis...SBxlbP1py0OnW4mYX5kUs0wZZbOPq9zc_rW95ov2swkao

Click to expand...

That is indeed, a lovely read.


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## Goldenstar (9 December 2021)

Tiddlypom said:



			Where are the *nod nod, wink wink, we're the ones who really know our stuff about the inside machinations of the racing world, just you wait til you hear the truth* anti Bryony Frost posters now?
		
Click to expand...

Enablers and protectors of status quo.
Lots of people hate change .
Young woman like BF are the face of change ,professional jockeys making their in world because of their talent not as a novelty female jockey .
Racing cannot make its way in the modern world while it harbours the attitudes of fifty years ago .
They have made a great start here .


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## ihatework (9 December 2021)

teapot said:



			This is a beautiful read  https://www.racingpost.com/news/dis...SBxlbP1py0OnW4mYX5kUs0wZZbOPq9zc_rW95ov2swkao

Click to expand...

She is a brave lady in and out of the saddle.

Dunne on the other hand ….


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## splashgirl45 (9 December 2021)

a good outcome but i am very disillusioned about the jockeys who stood up for dunne... i would like to know exactly how they justified his behaviour. i heard that richard johnson was one of them and i always respected him as a jockey but feel very differently now.... the other female jockeys who say they have had no problem are not winning races consistantly so were not given the sort of unwelcome attention that frost had....i hope she can continue to be successful and she has plenty of support as that must have been very difficult for her to go ahead and report him  even though her dad said not to..


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## Goldenstar (9 December 2021)

Small man small brain small minded politely covers it .
And as guilty as a ferret in a hen house .


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## Shilasdair (9 December 2021)

And now - a deeply unpleasant read  - PJA (Patriarchical Jockeys Association)

This was the association that supposedly was 'supporting' both Frost and Dunne.   I wonder whose side they may have favoured... place your bets!


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## splashgirl45 (9 December 2021)

funny how the number and names of all of these female jockeys are not given.  if the culture is not rancid,  why did the other male jockeys support dunne when he had admitted some of the charges.  if they thought it was in order to use the language and intentions he did, then they are warped as well..


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## stangs (9 December 2021)

The PJA saying there’s nothing rancid about the weighing room culture is the equivalent of a Big Lick trainer saying the horses move like that naturally


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## Shilasdair (9 December 2021)

splashgirl45 said:



			funny how the number and names of all of these female jockeys are not given.  if the culture is not rancid,  why did the other male jockeys support dunne when he had admitted some of the charges.  if they thought it was in order to use the language and intentions he did, then they are warped as well..
		
Click to expand...

Indeed.  
There used to be a prolific poster on here, who when losing an argument in a thread used to say 'Ping ping go my PMs - so many people agree with me'.     She must be related....


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## minesadouble (9 December 2021)

He's clearly been 'made an example of', and in the current climate I feel the panel almost  had no alternative. 
I hate this practice,, it happens in law and is unfortunate for the individual concerned.


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## ester (9 December 2021)

wow


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## Goldenstar (9 December 2021)

There used to be a culture that woman had to succeed within the culture they found in all walks of life .
In order to succeed you had embrace and survive the culture you landed in .
The world has changed and things move on .

Sexism was rife when I started working with horses now no one who question if a woman could look after a horse as well as a man or ride as well as a man .


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## Goldenstar (9 December 2021)

minesadouble said:



			He's clearly been 'made an example of', and in the current climate I feel the panel almost  had no alternative. 
I hate this practice,, it happens in law and is unfortunate for the individual concerned.
		
Click to expand...

Well if he had behaved in a civilised fashion there would have been nothing to made an example for .


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## teapot (9 December 2021)

This is, umm, not so well written:


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1468994496688017409 (if you click the images you should be able to read them)


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## minesadouble (9 December 2021)

When I worked with horses I wouldn't say there was sexism as such but there was a big 'banter' culture but it was always given out and taken with equal good humour.
But in today's society I honestly don't think it would be classed as acceptable.


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## Goldenstar (9 December 2021)

Sometimes banter is just that banter but you don’t indulge in banter with people you don’t like .


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## Goldenstar (9 December 2021)

teapot said:



			This is, umm, not so well written:


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1468994496688017409 (if you click the images you should be able to read them)
		
Click to expand...

One thing is true that a sensible system to accommodate felmale jockeys needs and their need to access valets should have been  sorted out years ago .

This does not in any way negate the fact that this man had a huge issue with another jockey who was female and responded with in an entirely unacceptable way . 
You can be a band of brothers ( unisex use of the world ) and deal with unacceptable behaviour .

This is 2021 not 1921


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## splashgirl45 (9 December 2021)

I worked in banking for many years and at one meeting with only 3 females and 12 males the head office executive thought it was ok to use the F word when talking about our performance.  as a female  who had been in the organisation for many years i was appalled and told him, in front of the whole meeting, that his language was unacceptable.  not one person backed me but during the coffee break three quarters of them told me well done for speaking up....i was not very popular with the head office people but i stood up for what i thought was right.  in hindsight, i should have kept my head down and ignored it and my career would have progressed much quicker,  i hope bryony doesnt have a similar problem although i think paul nicholls is supportive..


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## Goldenstar (9 December 2021)

Paul Nicholas likes results if she continues to perform she should be ok there.
I think she might be in for a lonely time on the course though .
I wish her nothing but good luck and happy times .


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## splashgirl45 (9 December 2021)

Goldenstar said:



			Paul Nicholas likes results if she continues to perform she should be ok there.
I think she might be in for a lonely time on the course though .
I wish her nothing but good luck and happy times .
		
Click to expand...

it cant be any worse than what she has had to put up with over the last few months,  hope she keeps strong and gets loads of winners


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## ester (9 December 2021)

Can one presume they don't have an actual media person.....


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## ester (9 December 2021)

teapot said:



			This is, umm, not so well written:


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1468994496688017409 (if you click the images you should be able to read them)
		
Click to expand...

Interesting to read some of the replies too.


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## Goldenstar (9 December 2021)

Happiness is always the best revenge .


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## Cherryblossom (9 December 2021)

If I needed more proof of the toxic masculinity in racing, that statement shows it. I wonder if ‘a number’ of female jockeys had anonymously said they agreed with BF, would they have released that statement?


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## Tihamandturkey (9 December 2021)

minesadouble said:



			He's clearly been 'made an example of', and in the current climate I feel the panel almost  had no alternative. 
I hate this practice,, it happens in law and is unfortunate for the individual concerned.
		
Click to expand...


I have no words


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## stangs (9 December 2021)

teapot said:



			This is, umm, not so well written:


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1468994496688017409 (if you click the images you should be able to read them)
		
Click to expand...

 what next? “all the male jockeys have female friends…”


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## Tihamandturkey (9 December 2021)

My (male) friends who worked in the UK racing game 30 and 40 years ago are appalled that this behaviour is still being tolerated and are speaking out on social media.

If those still working in the industry are not it can only mean that:

a) they aren't bothered by it.

 or

 b) they feel threatened.

Either way it's extremely concerning.


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## moosea (9 December 2021)

Fred66 said:



			Not sure, however its largely irrelevant. From numerous sources the type of threat offered by Dunne to Frost is common place within the weighing room and whilst this should not be acceptable and changes should be made, if this is the case it would be unfair to punish a single individual.
If Frosts allegations of persistent harassment by Dunne are true then obviously that is different.
The BHA need to put their house in order.
		
Click to expand...

If they had all groped a female jockey would it be ok because all of them had done it and its accepted behaviour?


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## Shilasdair (9 December 2021)

I suppose the only encouraging point is that many of the men replying completely 'get it' - and the majority of responses are horrified.


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## Andie02 (9 December 2021)

You are not going to believe it .........some idiot has only gone and set up a Go Fund Me page for the barsteward.


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## OldNag (9 December 2021)

Andie02 said:



			You are not going to believe it .........some idiot has only gone and set up a Go Fund page for the barsteward.
		
Click to expand...

 the world's gone mad!


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## Shilasdair (9 December 2021)

Andie02 said:



			You are not going to believe it .........some idiot has only gone and set up a Go Fund Me page for the barsteward.
		
Click to expand...

That's actually really demeaning to Dunne.

Yay!  

I guess Frost won't need a Go Fund Me page given that she's a successful jockey who hasn't just been banned for 18 months.


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## ycbm (9 December 2021)

Andie02 said:



			I cannot believe that you don't know  ........
		
Click to expand...

Why would anyone who doesn't follow racing know the names of any  jockeys but the ones who make headline news outside the racing reports?   I don't expect anyone to be able to name the riders outside of the disciplines they themselves follow.  

I tell you what though,  I'll never forget Dunne or Frost, for very different reasons from each other. 

Well done Bryony, brave woman,  you risked your career and have done racing a very big favour.  
.


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## Andie02 (9 December 2021)

https://l.facebook.com/l.php?u=http...p8aKv_itRd-wvueWWIczZWfSPfgKNjGuLSMm8cAPMU8Cp

He became a new dad a few weeks ago.


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## Shilasdair (9 December 2021)

Andie02 said:



https://l.facebook.com/l.php?u=https://www.gofundme.com/f/support-jockey-robbie-dunne?utm_source=customer&utm_medium=copy_link&utm_campaign=p_cf%20share-flow-1&fbclid=IwAR0KgJORNoDTOXWM2WRH0MCMURDDf0OGPxHFEn8zurGoG099mGGWslSWatE&h=AT0N9kAHVHg7KYmUKXG03hIXDQq4X4_k9bMZOQHF87Xn1l6gl44wqXy2H2_wqcKdh3LnbmzZMIz9Wao_HFQTLE9KifAvIcqanD_uxCK_tuoAHsQo-SWO06L8L56edMp_6RcI&__tn__=R]-R&c[0]=AT2LDNXO8W4N-lUYwkYUjiKp1tZ1Imn0ATNfQn1xzoGT-BScrd7HtSiMvw-N5BTeA_hxHMZSwr8mEAhbYnjffOZ2h2DfH8v2gs_s2h23JqttsyawYBDSjfSc8SkkeKIoqjxp8aKv_itRd-wvueWWIczZWfSPfgKNjGuLSMm8cAPMU8Cp

He became a new dad a few weeks ago.
		
Click to expand...

If I were Bryony Frost, I would donate to it.


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## Keep Trying (9 December 2021)

The PJA must take a breath and accept that there are flaws in their world. Just because they feel their ways are normal does not mean that they are normal in modern life. 

Reportedly, Robbie Dunne was arrogant in the hearing. Where was the PJA then and what advice did they give him? Did he not know that that kind of behaviour would only serve to reinforce the allegations against him - what kind of fool would do that or take advice advocating that approach?

The PJA must take and accept advice on how to proceed as they seem to be lurching from one embarrassment to another. The statement given in the press issued on behalf of an undisclosed number of anonymous female riders speaks volumes on its own. Surely they can see that this stance only serves to validate a reluctance to stand up? If their environment was that welcoming and supportive they should be more than comfortable identifying themselves.


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## honetpot (9 December 2021)

Shilasdair said:



			If I were Bryony Frost, I would donate to it.  

Click to expand...

I feel like donating a £1, just to say how disgusted I am, in the comments


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## Crazy_cat_lady (9 December 2021)

Why on earth has someone donated £200, that's hardly small change


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## neddy man (9 December 2021)

Eeek just looked at the fund raising page its aim target was £1000, there are 37 donations raising £ 980 , a number of them are female, personally I think it's a wrong thing to do and he wont be seeing any of my money,  and well done Bryony. (wiki.ng says Dunne fortune  is approx £1M)


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## SO1 (9 December 2021)

Maybe Dunne is not the only jockey who has behaved inappropriately, if this sort of behaviour is endemic in racing maybe people supported him as they fear if Frost won then it might cause a "me too" situation where others both male and female who have been bullied or intimidated will come forward and others will be in the dock trying to defend their behaviour. 



splashgirl45 said:



			a good outcome but i am very disillusioned about the jockeys who stood up for dunne... i would like to know exactly how they justified his behaviour. i heard that richard johnson was one of them and i always respected him as a jockey but feel very differently now.... the other female jockeys who say they have had no problem are not winning races consistantly so were not given the sort of unwelcome attention that frost had....i hope she can continue to be successful and she has plenty of support as that must have been very difficult for her to go ahead and report him  even though her dad said not to..
		
Click to expand...


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## Elf On A Shelf (10 December 2021)

Tiddlypom said:



			Where are the *nod nod, wink wink, we're the ones who really know our stuff about the inside machinations of the racing world, just you wait til you hear the truth* anti Bryony Frost posters now?
		
Click to expand...

Spending the days trucking and racing the last few days, doing the same again today and tomorrow so I am trying to catch up on the reports when not driving.


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## ycbm (10 December 2021)

Keep Trying said:



			Surely they can see that this stance only serves to validate a reluctance to stand up? If their environment was that welcoming and supportive they should be more than comfortable identifying themselves.
		
Click to expand...

For whatever reason they actually did it,  the decision to remain anonymous suggests that they fear some kind of retribution if they don't,  doesn't it?  Not a good message right now.  

I'd want to know if they were winning jockies on good horses, and any threat to the men in "a man's game" before I could put any positive interpretation on it.  
.


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## Goldenstar (10 December 2021)

On the other female jockeys  I don’t think we can or should second guess what others are thinking and why they took the decision to act as they did .
Dunne chose to bully the wrong person, her sex may be incidental ( it’s a big may) she is made of stern stuff and her profile probably was one of the things that gave her the confidence to use the system as she did .
Do I think it was this individuals first foray into bulling heck no I don’t. I think it’s likely he was well practised at it when he ran into BF .
IME people don’t start this sort of behaviour as mature adults they have a pattern they follow learn over the years .


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## stangs (10 December 2021)

Quite liked this blog post on the matter by a female trainer: https://www.jodavisracing.com/single-post/racing-needs-to-up-its-game


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## Parrotperson (10 December 2021)

teapot said:



			This is, umm, not so well written:


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1468994496688017409 (if you click the images you should be able to read them)
		
Click to expand...

yes this is dreadful. Talk about not reading the room! And they’re supposed to represent BF too! Fat chance.


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## alibali (10 December 2021)

As a little bit of light hearted relief I did get a giggle when I saw the photo of Dunne and his lawyer en route to the hearing both decked out in pink. Presumably to give the impression of being in touch with their feminine sides or show solidarity with their female colleagues who of course all love pink..... The lengths lawyers will go to to try to influence proceedings in a subliminal manner does make me chuckle. I very much doubt the QC was been taken in at all. 

As for Dunne being made an example of. Having worked in a very patriarchal environment which has gradually reformed over the last 20 years it's unfortunate but the culture did not change by generalised directives to all employees it was only by the disciplining of the worst offender's that others were forced to examine their own actions and attitudes.


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## Andie02 (10 December 2021)

stangs said:



			Quite liked this blog post on the matter by a female trainer: https://www.jodavisracing.com/single-post/racing-needs-to-up-its-game

Click to expand...

A very interesting read.


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## ycbm (10 December 2021)

stangs said:



			Quite liked this blog post on the matter by a female trainer: https://www.jodavisracing.com/single-post/racing-needs-to-up-its-game

Click to expand...

The women who wanted the press release put out yesterday need to read it. 
.


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## minesadouble (10 December 2021)

Just to give some balance I have read this on my FB feed this morning from a female jockey 

"
This is my own experience on racing! 
I do not condone bullying of any sort! 
The amount of things I’m reading about the weigh room and the way us female jockeys are treated is absolute crap! 
All the boys and girls at some point will shout when adrenalines are high and we’re trying to get where we need to! The senior jockeys usually have words with the less experienced to help them and tell them what they have done wrong and advice on how to do it in the future! 
I have been shouted at and I have shouted at others when out on the course! When I go back in we’re all friends again and get on unless it was a dicition that could have been dangerous then usually it will be discussed then that’s it over! 
All the valets I have ever met have been absolute legends! Will make sure your right with everything you need and treat you with respect and kindness! 
Every course has a ladies changing room! 
Behind the scenes of racing we have the ijf (injured jockeys fund) if we need a councillor, physio, doctor or rehab we get it straight away, we’re constantly asked about our well-being (male and female) 
Racing to me is a big family! 
I am absolutely sick of reading the lies in the media stating how us women are afraid to talk and how we are bullied on a daily basis by our colleagues! 
Don’t believe everything you read listen to the people who are actually in it!"


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## bonny (10 December 2021)

minesadouble said:



			Just to give some balance I have read this on my FB feed this morning from a female jockey

"
This is my own experience on racing!
I do not condone bullying of any sort!
The amount of things I’m reading about the weigh room and the way us female jockeys are treated is absolute crap!
All the boys and girls at some point will shout when adrenalines are high and we’re trying to get where we need to! The senior jockeys usually have words with the less experienced to help them and tell them what they have done wrong and advice on how to do it in the future!
I have been shouted at and I have shouted at others when out on the course! When I go back in we’re all friends again and get on unless it was a dicition that could have been dangerous then usually it will be discussed then that’s it over!
All the valets I have ever met have been absolute legends! Will make sure your right with everything you need and treat you with respect and kindness!
Every course has a ladies changing room!
Behind the scenes of racing we have the ijf (injured jockeys fund) if we need a councillor, physio, doctor or rehab we get it straight away, we’re constantly asked about our well-being (male and female)
Racing to me is a big family!
I am absolutely sick of reading the lies in the media stating how us women are afraid to talk and how we are bullied on a daily basis by our colleagues!
Don’t believe everything you read listen to the people who are actually in it!"
		
Click to expand...

Did they put their name to it ?


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## Tiddlypom (10 December 2021)

Name?


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## stangs (10 December 2021)

Crossposted. Ignore.


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## Shilasdair (10 December 2021)

bonny said:



			Did they put their name to it ?
		
Click to expand...

It seems to me that there are only a few people in this debacle who have the courage to give their names, Frost being the key one.


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## RachelFerd (10 December 2021)

Good blog from Jo Davis. And a good result all in for shaking the sport into having to deal with these issues rather than continue to ignore them.

Much like Jo, in the 10 years I spent in racing I probably tolerated far too much nonsense, and would have happily stood up and said I was tough enough and that others weren't. Over time I've come to realise that was naivety on my part and that ignoring the problem continues to exacerbate it.

I'm certainly not surprised to hear about valets kicking off. My experience of running charity races was always marred by valets treating our charity fundraising participants like dirt on the floor because they weren't getting paid to help them out. We had to bung them money.... not right!


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## The Fuzzy Furry (10 December 2021)

Minesadouble, a little flaw in that,  even a year ago there were not seperate changing rooms at some tracks. 
Yes, all now have them, but at a few, they are no bigger than a small cloakroom, not enough room for a few to change or have valets in too.

Even today, there are several that only have 1 shower for ladies,  diabolical when there are ladies races run at those courses.


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## Andie02 (10 December 2021)

minesadouble said:



			Just to give some balance I have read this on my FB feed this morning from a female jockey

"
This is my own experience on racing!
I do not condone bullying of any sort!
The amount of things I’m reading about the weigh room and the way us female jockeys are treated is absolute crap!
All the boys and girls at some point will shout when adrenalines are high and we’re trying to get where we need to! The senior jockeys usually have words with the less experienced to help them and tell them what they have done wrong and advice on how to do it in the future!
I have been shouted at and I have shouted at others when out on the course! When I go back in we’re all friends again and get on unless it was a dicition that could have been dangerous then usually it will be discussed then that’s it over!
All the valets I have ever met have been absolute legends! Will make sure your right with everything you need and treat you with respect and kindness!
Every course has a ladies changing room!
Behind the scenes of racing we have the ijf (injured jockeys fund) if we need a councillor, physio, doctor or rehab we get it straight away, we’re constantly asked about our well-being (male and female)
Racing to me is a big family!
I am absolutely sick of reading the lies in the media stating how us women are afraid to talk and how we are bullied on a daily basis by our colleagues!
Don’t believe everything you read listen to the people who are actually in it!"
		
Click to expand...


Taken from Jo Davis Blog

We want to be accepted when we are young, the girls I have spoken to about the Bryony situation say "its just Robbie, unless you stand up to him that's what he does", fair play to them, however why should they??

I would rather believe this version !


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## ihatework (10 December 2021)

Andie02 said:



			Taken from Jo Davis Blog

We want to be accepted when we are young, the girls I have spoken to about the Bryony situation say "its just Robbie, unless you stand up to him that's what he does", fair play to them, however why should they??

I would rather believe this version !
		
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And that’s probably the crux of it isn’t it. Most of the time it’s just little comments here and there. Maybe made by Robbie. Maybe not called out by others. Often similar comments by others. Here and there a little bit of harmless banter. 

But at some point those lines get blurred. As nothing is said it’s inherently ‘accepted’. 

Then one day one of the worst offenders oversteps the mark and gets called out. Is so self unaware he goes on the attack. His mates are feeling a combination of shock, confusion and guilt. They know full well it could easily have been them.

And there you have it. Robbie was the one that took it far enough that the whole culture unravels.


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## minesadouble (10 December 2021)

Tiddlypom said:



			Name?
		
Click to expand...

Ali Johnson.


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## Rowreach (10 December 2021)

minesadouble said:



			Ali Johnson.
		
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Married to one of the old guard.


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## bonny (10 December 2021)

Rowreach said:



			Married to one of the old guard.
		
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It’s all just depressing


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## Andie02 (10 December 2021)

minesadouble said:



			Just to give some balance I have read this on my FB feed this morning from a female jockey

"
This is my own experience on racing!
I do not condone bullying of any sort!
The amount of things I’m reading about the weigh room and the way us female jockeys are treated is absolute crap!
All the boys and girls at some point will shout when adrenalines are high and we’re trying to get where we need to! The senior jockeys usually have words with the less experienced to help them and tell them what they have done wrong and advice on how to do it in the future!
I have been shouted at and I have shouted at others when out on the course! When I go back in we’re all friends again and get on unless it was a dicition that could have been dangerous then usually it will be discussed then that’s it over!
All the valets I have ever met have been absolute legends! Will make sure your right with everything you need and treat you with respect and kindness!
Every course has a ladies changing room!
Behind the scenes of racing we have the ijf (injured jockeys fund) if we need a councillor, physio, doctor or rehab we get it straight away, we’re constantly asked about our well-being (male and female)
Racing to me is a big family!
I am absolutely sick of reading the lies in the media stating how us women are afraid to talk and how we are bullied on a daily basis by our colleagues!
Don’t believe everything you read listen to the people who are actually in it!"
		
Click to expand...


Says it all doesn't it ..........stuff you Bryony, we're all right, he isn't bothering us. Talk about blinkered......pardon the pun !

So according to this account Bryony is lying !


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## Rowreach (10 December 2021)

RachelFerd said:



			Good blog from Jo Davis. And a good result all in for shaking the sport into having to deal with these issues rather than continue to ignore them.

Much like Jo, in the 10 years I spent in racing I probably tolerated far too much nonsense, and would have happily stood up and said I was tough enough and that others weren't. Over time I've come to realise that was naivety on my part and that ignoring the problem continues to exacerbate it.

I'm certainly not surprised to hear about valets kicking off. My experience of running charity races was always marred by valets treating our charity fundraising participants like dirt on the floor because they weren't getting paid to help them out. We had to bung them money.... not right!
		
Click to expand...

I'm so glad you posted this.  ime many women simply put up with it because it was "as it ever was", but with hindsight would wonder why the hell they did so.  Is it "tough" to put up with it or "tougher" to actually stand up against these people?


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## splashgirl45 (10 December 2021)

minesadouble said:



			Just to give some balance I have read this on my FB feed this morning from a female jockey

"
This is my own experience on racing!
I do not condone bullying of any sort!
The amount of things I’m reading about the weigh room and the way us female jockeys are treated is absolute crap!
All the boys and girls at some point will shout when adrenalines are high and we’re trying to get where we need to! The senior jockeys usually have words with the less experienced to help them and tell them what they have done wrong and advice on how to do it in the future!
I have been shouted at and I have shouted at others when out on the course! When I go back in we’re all friends again and get on unless it was a dicition that could have been dangerous then usually it will be discussed then that’s it over!
All the valets I have ever met have been absolute legends! Will make sure your right with everything you need and treat you with respect and kindness!
Every course has a ladies changing room!
Behind the scenes of racing we have the ijf (injured jockeys fund) if we need a councillor, physio, doctor or rehab we get it straight away, we’re constantly asked about our well-being (male and female)
Racing to me is a big family!
I am absolutely sick of reading the lies in the media stating how us women are afraid to talk and how we are bullied on a daily basis by our colleagues!
Don’t believe everything you read listen to the people who are actually in it!"
		
Click to expand...

i have just seen the name,  who on earth is she?  i follow racing on the tv and have never heard of her.  how much of a threat to the boys is she, and as she is married to one of them the men will watch how they talk to her.  she is not worth listening to and i prefer the truth as per jo davis and bryony...


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## Andie02 (10 December 2021)

honetpot said:



			I feel like donating a £1, just to say how disgusted I am, in the comments
		
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As much as that ! Too generous


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## Andie02 (10 December 2021)

Tiddlypom said:



			Where are the *nod nod, wink wink, we're the ones who really know our stuff about the inside machinations of the racing world, just you wait til you hear the truth* anti Bryony Frost posters now?
		
Click to expand...

Too funny TP and clearly its hit home !


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## ester (10 December 2021)

minesadouble said:



			The amount of things I’m reading about the weigh room and the way us female jockeys are treated is absolute crap!
All the boys and girls at some point will shout when adrenalines are high and we’re trying to get where we need to! The senior jockeys usually have words with the less experienced to help them and tell them what they have done wrong and advice on how to do it in the future!
I have been shouted at and I have shouted at others when out on the course! When I go back in we’re all friends again and get on unless it was a dicition that could have been dangerous then usually it will be discussed then that’s it over!
		
Click to expand...


Just don't shout at people, it's hardly the most effective form of communication is it 🤷‍♀️. Why should shouting at people be ok?


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## Andie02 (10 December 2021)

splashgirl45 said:



			a good outcome but i am very disillusioned about the jockeys who stood up for dunne... i would like to know exactly how they justified his behaviour. i heard that richard johnson was one of them and i always respected him as a jockey but feel very differently now.... the other female jockeys who say they have had no problem are not winning races consistantly so were not given the sort of unwelcome attention that frost had....i hope she can continue to be successful and she has plenty of support as that must have been very difficult for her to go ahead and report him  even though her dad said not to..
		
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Not forgetting of course Tom Scu and the hmmm ...... significance with the 'nod nod wink wink anti Bryony, we know our stuff ', ..........
trying to look good, where the Scu's are concerned. Tom Scu should be supporting Bryony, how 2 faced is he !


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## bonny (10 December 2021)

I’ve been watching today’s racing and I’ve just turned it off. I just found I was watching and not caring who won or lost and then it all got a bit pointless. They really need to sort out the image of jump racing or I suspect others will be joining me.
I found myself hoping Lucinda Russell’s horse didn’t win at Cheltenham and just feeling depressed when he did. I don’t want to feel like this, I love racing but I’m seeing it in a different light and it’s putting me right off.


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## splashgirl45 (10 December 2021)

why didnt you want her horse to win? surely not because of this thread


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## Andie02 (10 December 2021)

There has just been an interview with trainer Neil King on Sky Sports Racing from Doncaster where Briony is riding today and tomorrow, he is fully supporting Briony.


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## bonny (10 December 2021)

splashgirl45 said:



			why didnt you want her horse to win? surely not because of this thread
		
Click to expand...

I guess it was, the whole stable I assume feel the same way as Elf, no doubt influenced by the Scudamore connection. It’s just sad really.


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## Velcrobum (10 December 2021)

A well written comment from the Editor of the Racing Post.

https://www.racingpost.com/news/dis...s-situation-to-fester-that-must-change/526308


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## splashgirl45 (10 December 2021)

bonny, i find that quite sad... whatever elf etc think of the current situation i still support the stable as i like the insights into racing and hope elf continues to post .

  just looked at ali johnsons results,  no wonder she hasnt had any problems, she is no danger to anyone male or female...


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## teapot (10 December 2021)

Andie02 said:



			Taken from Jo Davis Blog

We want to be accepted when we are young, the girls I have spoken to about the Bryony situation say "its just Robbie, unless you stand up to him that's what he does", fair play to them, however why should they??

I would rather believe this version !
		
Click to expand...

'It's just Robbie' - fairly sure Met Officers were saying 'it's just Wayne' when Wayne Couzens was waving his knob around... Not comparing the two at all, but that attitude of oh it's just them rather than calling people out is why things never change.


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## splashgirl45 (10 December 2021)

commadores jockey has just said a lot of the jockeys are upset about the description of the culture of the weighing room,  he said it was tarring everyone with the same brush...if that is the case where was the support for bryony after dunnes behaviour, there was none and she was sent to coventry as they all closed ranks.  none of them were brave enough to stand up and support bryony when his behaviour crossed the line


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## Steerpike (10 December 2021)

Itv just had an interview with the jpa and he still couldn't say Briony was bullied, he kept saying 'felt' bullied, he said he had tried to help but yet he hasn't spoken to her since the verdict nearly 24hrs later...


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## Goldenstar (10 December 2021)

Rowreach said:



			Married to one of the old guard.
		
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Ah .


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## Goldenstar (10 December 2021)

Steerpike said:



			Itv just had an interview with the jpa and he still couldn't say Briony was bullied, he kept saying 'felt' bullied, he said he had tried to help but yet he hasn't spoken to her since the verdict nearly 24hrs later...
		
Click to expand...

She’s in for a rough time .


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## Steerpike (10 December 2021)

Yes which just goes to show how much racing is in the dark ages.


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## ycbm (10 December 2021)

The senior jockeys usually have words with the less experienced to help them and tell them what they have done wrong and advice on how to do it in the future!
		
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What happens if the issue is with a senior jockey?




			I have been shouted at and I have shouted at others when out on the course! When I go back in we’re all friends again and get on unless it was a situation that could have been dangerous then usually it will be discussed then that’s it over!
		
Click to expand...

Everyone agrees just to forget about dangerous situations instead of reporting them?




			All the valets I have ever met have been absolute legends! Will make sure your right with everything you need and treat you with respect and kindness!
		
Click to expand...

And yet yesterday one valet tweeted that a trainer who dared to complain about them was lucky to get all her tack back.





			Racing to me is a big family!
		
Click to expand...

Families are often extremely toxic and its not until an outsider points it out or you remove yourself from the family that you realise how dysfunctional it was.

I'm not saying that your experiences aren't absolutely how it was for you,  but it clearly wasn't that way for Bryony.


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## blodwyn1 (10 December 2021)

I think the presenters attitude has changed a bit today after the verdict. Especially the ex jockeys.


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## splashgirl45 (10 December 2021)

well they were supporting bryony last weekend before the result... both ed and mick were for her so they havent changed,


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## Andie02 (10 December 2021)

https://www.racingpost.com/news/dis...l-someone-else-to-sit-down-and-shut-up/526492


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## ihatework (10 December 2021)

Andie02 said:



https://www.racingpost.com/news/dis...l-someone-else-to-sit-down-and-shut-up/526492

Click to expand...

I think he’s got it right on balance.

For instance - Robbies ‘ride you into the wings’ threat. It was wrong 100%. But, in the heat of the moment with sky high adrenaline and anger I can understand how he might have said it.
Had he calmed down and reflected, gone to BF and admitted he was out of line and apologised, I bet he wouldn’t find himself where he is today.

ETA - the fact he couldn’t see at the time how utterly out of line he was, means he totally deserves the book throwing at him. No sympathy from me. I can’t abide people who don’t admit responsibility for their actions.


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## minesadouble (10 December 2021)

ycbm said:



			What happens if the issue is with a senior jockey?



Everyone agrees just to forget about dangerous situations instead of reporting them?



And yet yesterday one valet tweeted that a trainer who dared to complain about them was lucky to get all her tack back.




Families are often extremely toxic and its not until an outsider points it out or you remove yourself from the family that you realise how dysfunctional it was.

I'm not saying that your experiences aren't absolutely how it was for you,  but it clearly wasn't that way for Bryony.
		
Click to expand...

Just to clarify that was a post on my FB feed this morning, that I was quoting I've never ridden in a race in my life 😉


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## Andie02 (10 December 2021)

minesadouble said:



			Just to clarify that was a post on my FB feed this morning, that I was quoting I've never ridden in a race in my life 😉
		
Click to expand...

Yeah, we have already seen that.

BUT clearly you thought it was worth posting on here. As ycbm has pointed out there's more holes in it than a colander.


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## Kadastorm (10 December 2021)

Lots of very angry people on twitter throughout todays itv racing fixture regarding this case. The guy from the PJA was awful, Mick Fitzgerald fobbing off Francesca’s question about why the jockeys didn’t stand up for Bryony. But the chief executive of the BHA came across quite well. 

I really hope BF has good support around her, she has done a great job for women in sport and I really admire her for standing up and speaking out. She is a role model for the future jockeys.


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## Rowreach (10 December 2021)

ihatework said:



			I think he’s got it right on balance.

For instance - Robbies ‘ride you into the wings’ threat. It was wrong 100%. But, in the heat of the moment with sky high adrenaline and anger I can understand how he might have said it.
Had he calmed down and reflected, gone to BF and admitted he was out of line and apologised, I bet he wouldn’t find himself where he is today.

ETA - the fact he couldn’t see at the time how utterly out of line he was, means he totally deserves the book throwing at him. No sympathy from me. I can’t abide people who don’t admit responsibility for their actions.
		
Click to expand...

If it wasn't so serious, I'd be amused that RD and all those that spoke for him can't see that they confirmed to the inquiry absolutely everything that had been said about them, by their attitude, their tone and (post inquiry), by all the twaddle that they are writing about it.


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## Velcrobum (10 December 2021)

All these jockeys need to stop digging the hole Dunne created and they have joined him in.

I am bumping this comment
A quote from the chair of the independent panel a damming observation!!

"In the course of the days of this hearing you have adopted an aggressive attack on her personality in order to seek to justify your actions"

IMHO speaks volumes about his personality and his vindictiveness.


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## Goldenstar (10 December 2021)

People who have quietly put up with a system that harbours bullies often find it hard to accept someone who stands up and says no that’s it I am not bantering,appeasing or ignoring my way through this .
That’s because inside they feel bad.


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## Parrotperson (10 December 2021)

blodwyn1 said:



			I think the presenters attitude has changed a bit today after the verdict. Especially the ex jockeys.
		
Click to expand...

Really. I have to say it wasn’t noticeable. Francesca Cumani tried to challenge them but didn’t get very far when she asked why no support for bryony. Mick Fitzgerald just said ‘you’d have to ask them ‘ meaning the other jockeys. And he’s aboard member of the PJA the association that’s supposed to support Dunne AND Frost.
Grrrrrrrrrr🤬🤬


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## splashgirl45 (10 December 2021)

i didnt interpret it like you did, she asked about why other jockeys not supporting bryony and he couldnt speak for them as he is not in the weighing room ,  he has supported bryony on air and is always full of praise for her so i think you are on the wrong tack with going after MF


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## tristar (10 December 2021)

Goldenstar said:



			People who have quietly put up with a system that harbours bullies often find it hard to accept someone who stands up and says no that’s it I am not bantering,appeasing or ignoring my way through this .
That’s because inside they feel bad.
		
Click to expand...


most people would not have the guts to say enough is enough and carry it through to a result

an exceptional young woman in more than one way


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## minesadouble (10 December 2021)

Andie02 said:



			Yeah, we have already seen that.

BUT clearly you thought it was worth posting on here. As ycbm has pointed out there's more holes in it than a colander.
		
Click to expand...

I posted it for the sake of balance to demonstrate Bryony Frost's story does not reflect the experience of all female jockeys, in fact quite the contrary.


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## minesadouble (10 December 2021)

splashgirl45 said:



			i have just seen the name,  who on earth is she?  i follow racing on the tv and have never heard of her.  how much of a threat to the boys is she, and as she is married to one of them the men will watch how they talk to her.  she is not worth listening to and i prefer the truth as per jo davis and bryony...
		
Click to expand...

There are many many jockeys who rarely ride in your Saturday TV racesl, it doesn't make their opinion of weigh room culture any less valuable. 
How dare you say 'she's not worth listening too' that is an absolutely outrageous statement and says a lot about you as a person! She is just as entitled to opinion as you and she actually has first hand experience of the weighing room unlike yourself.


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## honetpot (10 December 2021)

minesadouble said:



			I posted it for the sake of balance to demonstrate Bryony Frost's story does not reflect the experience of all female jockeys, in fact quite the contrary.
		
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 I think you are missing the point, she was targeted. A long time ago I was bullied at work, not as badly as this, the art of bullying is picking on one person, so other people who should defend them feel safe, while they are having ago at the target. He was a senior jockey and looks like he has some influence, so it is easier to side with him, than call it out.
  I can not see any justification for exposing yourself, or calling someone sexually offensive names, which he admitted he did, that's not banter.


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## ycbm (10 December 2021)

minesadouble said:



			I posted it for the sake of balance to demonstrate Bryony Frost's story does not reflect the experience of all female jockeys, in fact quite the contrary.
		
Click to expand...

I've sat in a court and watched a video of a wife try and grind her husband's face onto a wine glass and then seen him in person cry and beg the court to let her home for Christmas. I've sat in a court and watched a young woman with black eyes from a thumping, with streams of mascara running down her face, as she begged us to let her boyfriend back home because it was all her own fault.

The tweet you posted likened racing to a family.  Yes,  and it sounds like, for many of the members, it's an abusive family,  where some of the participants don't realise that they are being abused until they are removed from the situation.

There's a blog post from a female trainer above which explains it perfectly from a first hand point of view. 
.


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## Old school (10 December 2021)

Mmm, here is my take on it after reading a fair bit on the topic.

I think that he had the hots for her at some point. She didn't reciprocate and his ego could not take rejection. Normally two people could avoid each other after this point. But no, their work environment required them to be in a state of undress in the same room. Maybe she cracked a joke with some other jock, got on ok with them. Mr. Bruised Ego could not hack it and decided to constantly have a go at her. The race riding incident was an aside that could conveniently be dragged into it..... Any thoughts??? Am I for the birds?

As any good Dub would say, he is a 'bleedin gobshite'.


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## Orangehorse (10 December 2021)

Yes, he is guilty, yes his behaviour was terrible and yes, Bryony was brave to speak out.

But I think the sentence is too harsh, he has lost his job, his livelihood.  He should have had a ban for a while, a big fine and then a "suspended sentence" to watch his conduct in future.


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## ycbm (10 December 2021)

Orangehorse said:



			Yes, he is guilty, yes his behaviour was terrible and yes, Bryony was brave to speak out.

But I think the sentence is too harsh, he has lost his job, his livelihood.  He should have had a ban for a while, a big fine and then a "suspended sentence" to watch his conduct in future.
		
Click to expand...

I suspect that the sentence was as much to do with his attitude in court and his "she was a cow and deserved it" and "don't point the finger at me everyone does it" defence. 
.


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## Parrotperson (10 December 2021)

splashgirl45 said:



			i didnt interpret it like you did, she asked about why other jockeys not supporting bryony and he couldnt speak for them as he is not in the weighing room ,  he has supported bryony on air and is always full of praise for her so i think you are on the wrong tack with going after MF
		
Click to expand...

 I shall beg respectful to differ.
He’s in the board of the PJA who have consistently backed dunne and not bryony. He had input to their stance. He does orsise get yes but crucially he’s not backing her in the way that’s needed.


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## Clodagh (10 December 2021)

splashgirl45 said:



			i didnt interpret it like you did, she asked about why other jockeys not supporting bryony and he couldnt speak for them as he is not in the weighing room ,  he has supported bryony on air and is always full of praise for her so i think you are on the wrong tack with going after MF
		
Click to expand...

I agree with Parrot, he had an opinion of everything said until she asked him that when he suddenly didn’t know.


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## Clodagh (10 December 2021)

I can see that the majority of people on the weighing room are decent people.
The Only Thing Necessary for the Triumph of Evil is that Good Men Do Nothing.
Excuse capitals, I copied it over from Google as couldn’t remember the exact wording.


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## Tihamandturkey (10 December 2021)

Old school said:



			Mmm, here is my take on it after reading a fair bit on the topic.

I think that he had the hots for her at some point. She didn't reciprocate and his ego could not take rejection. Normally two people could avoid each other after this point. But no, their work environment required them to be in a state of undress in the same room. Maybe she cracked a joke with some other jock, got on ok with them. Mr. Bruised Ego could not hack it and decided to constantly have a go at her. The race riding incident was an aside that could conveniently be dragged into it..... Any thoughts??? Am I for the birds?

As any good Dub would say, he is a 'bleedin gobshite'.
		
Click to expand...

I don't know where to start with this tbh.

Really? 

His "bruised ego" had to be because she rejected his advances and cracked a joke with "some other  jock" (male obviously) not because she's a sucessful jockey with better results and rides.

 Jesus wept as we might say here in Clare 😡


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## Old school (10 December 2021)

Tihamandturkey said:



			I don't know where to start with this tbh.

Really?

His "bruised ego" had to be because she rejected his advances and cracked a joke with "some other  jock" (male obviously) not because she's a sucessful jockey with better results and rides.

Jesus wept as we might say here in Clare 😡
		
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No way do I believe he was triggered into his despicable behaviour because she is a better jock. Nope, he is fairly second rung at best. He would be bullying a lot of folks if he was put out by those who are better than him.


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## stangs (10 December 2021)

Tihamandturkey said:



			I don't know where to start with this tbh.

Really?

His "bruised ego" had to be because she rejected his advances and cracked a joke with "some other  jock" (male obviously) not because she's a sucessful jockey with better results and rides.

Jesus wept as we might say here in Clare 😡
		
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I don't want to speculate, but I do think that it's worth noting that there was a distinctly sexual undertone to a lot of what he said/did. You could argue that that's just misogyny, but you could argue equally well that it was to do with possibly having been rejected by her.


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## neddy man (10 December 2021)

Maybe he has, but no one else has been brave / strong enough to speak out.


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## Shilasdair (10 December 2021)

Those poor male jockeys are all terribly upset at having their culture called 'rancid'.      What a terrible insult.  

Whereas calling someone a f****** sl**, a f****** w**** and a c*** - that's just banter!   

The male jockeys and in particular the PJA seem to be in an echo chamber with voices from the 1950s still reverberating.


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## Mrs. Jingle (10 December 2021)

ycbm said:



			I suspect that the sentence was as much to do with his attitude in court and his "she was a cow and deserved it" and "don't point the finger at me everyone does it" defence.
.
		
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This 100 percent - he hung himself and even bought his own rope to do it. I have no sympathy for him at all. 

He believed his own arrogance and untouchable popularity would carry him through, well he was wrong wasn't he, and thank God and justice for that!


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## AFishOutOfWater (10 December 2021)

Probably being dim here but, I'm not sure I understand the relevance of his being rejected by her anyway (which no one has any evidence for). His behaviour would be wrong regardless.


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## neddy man (10 December 2021)

Robbie's go fund me is now £1515 from 54 donations (£28 average) still a number of female donations including a £10 donation from  Bryony Frost, (probably not the racing one)


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## Steerpike (10 December 2021)

Orangehorse said:



			Yes, he is guilty, yes his behaviour was terrible and yes, Bryony was brave to speak out.

But I think the sentence is too harsh, he has lost his job, his livelihood.  He should have had a ban for a while, a big fine and then a "suspended sentence" to watch his conduct in future.
		
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He has lost his race riding, he can still ride out at trainers so I dispute that he's lost his job.


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## Elf On A Shelf (10 December 2021)

Andie02 said:



			Not forgetting of course Tom Scu and the hmmm ...... significance with the 'nod nod wink wink anti Bryony, we know our stuff ', ..........
trying to look good, where the Scu's are concerned. Tom Scu should be supporting Bryony, how 2 faced is he !
		
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Mate I left my house at 5.30am yesterday morning, trucked to Newcastle for a runner then carried on to Doncaster overnight for a runner today. I have literally just walked back in my door. I will be up again at 5.30am tomorrow morning before heading to Wolverhampton for a runner at 7.45pm and won't be home til the best part of 3am. I will catch up with this thread and the story when I have 5 minutes too. Right now I am going to find my dinner, have a shower and go to bed! I am only here just now because I was alerted to this comment. 

We can't all spend all of our days sitting on the Internet.


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## Rowreach (10 December 2021)

Steerpike said:



			He has lost his race riding, he can still ride out at trainers so I dispute that he's lost his job.
		
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Yeah exactly, he hasn't been warned off or anything.  Or indeed faced criminal charges.  And the only person to blame for him getting banned from racing for a bit is Dunne himself.  Not Bryony, not the inquiry, not the media.


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## Tihamandturkey (10 December 2021)

Old school said:



			No way do I believe he was triggered into his despicable behaviour because she is a better jock. Nope, he is fairly second rung at best. He would be bullying a lot of folks if he was put out by those who are better than him.
		
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So the reason you come up with is that he fancied her & she didn't fancy him & was joking with other jocks hence he was jealous - misogynistic much?


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## Goldenstar (10 December 2021)

minesadouble said:



			I posted it for the sake of balance to demonstrate Bryony Frost's story does not reflect the experience of all female jockeys, in fact quite the contrary.
		
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It’s more than a story she has proved her case .



Shilasdair said:



			Those poor male jockeys are all terribly upset at having their culture called 'rancid'.      What a terrible insult.  

Whereas calling someone a f****** sl**, a f****** w**** and a c*** - that's just banter!   

The male jockeys and in particular the PJA seem to be in an echo chamber with voices from the 1950s still reverberating.
		
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I think think it’s not the same as the 50’s in the fifties the patriarchy was still strong this meant that in most cases woman where treated very differently to today .
Unequal for sure but there was in most cases woman where protected by old fashioned manners .
It’s very different to the toxic misogyny on show in many places today .


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## splashgirl45 (10 December 2021)

minesadouble said:



			There are many many jockeys who rarely ride in your Saturday TV racesl, it doesn't make their opinion of weigh room culture any less valuable.
How dare you say 'she's not worth listening too' that is an absolutely outrageous statement and says a lot about you as a person! She is just as entitled to opinion as you and she actually has first hand experience of the weighing room unlike yourself.
		
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she had 4 rides in 2021 and no wins, she is no threat to the male jockeys where frost is


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## minesadouble (10 December 2021)

splashgirl45 said:



			she had 4 rides in 2021 and no wins, she is no threat to the male jockeys where frost is
		
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That does not render her sentiment 'not worth listening to'.
I don't consider Frost a 'threat' to the male jockeys at all either, if that were the reason behind Dunne's actions why didn't behave similarly towards Rachael Blackmore who is a way more successful rider  than Frost?


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## neddy man (10 December 2021)

Possibly because she's Irish.


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## patseyr (10 December 2021)

Fair Play to Bryony Frost, she has taken a stand that that will hopefully improve the welfare of female riders in the future. She could have very easily taken the abuse and given up, how many times has that happened before?
I hope  this will not adversly affect her career, however I feel it may have.

She may have changed the face of the sport for the better and this may allow more female jockeys to enter the sport.
Thank you Bryony


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## Goldenstar (11 December 2021)

minesadouble said:



			That does not render her sentiment 'not worth listening to'.
I don't consider Frost a 'threat' to the male jockeys at all either, if that were the reason behind Dunne's actions why didn't behave similarly towards Rachael Blackmore who is a way more successful rider  than Frost?
		
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Who knows it’s not relevant , what matters is that BF has been vindicated by the process .
I don’t know much about BF but I am amazed that any one is surprised that One person has had an issue and others have not .
That’s how bullies work they don’t bully everyone they pick on one or a few, part of whole process is separating the chosen victims and seeking to make them other and separate them from the group , while seeking to undermine  their self worth and confidence 
It makes me very annoyed when people say why did A not get bullied then and seek to put the blame on the person on the receiving end of the unacceptable behaviour that’s just plain wrong .
It does not matter a jot if BF is an abrasive individual ( I have no idea, non ) nothing excuses indulging in misogynistic bullying with strong intones of sexual violence in the workplace tbh in my view he lucky he’s not been charged with a criminal offence 
People are protected in law from that sort of treatment .
Also the fact that few have spoken up for me shows how toxic and dangerous the working environment on the racecourse can be for all jockeys not just woman and how much people keep their heads down .
This is a tip of the iceberg situation .
I suspect the we now see a look we have dealt with it narrative they have not they may have cut one head off the snake it will have others .


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## ycbm (11 December 2021)

Women win medals at Olympic eventing every time.  Women ride race horse exercise daily.  There is a reason there are not more women jockeys over a fifth of the way through the 21st century and it's got nothing to do with them being women.
.


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## ycbm (11 December 2021)

minesadouble said:



			I don't consider Frost a 'threat' to the male jockeys at all either, if that were the reason behind Dunne's actions why didn't behave similarly towards Rachael Blackmore who is a way more successful rider  than Frost?
		
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I refer you back to my post and the blog post by a female trainer/ex jockey,  that people who are in toxic families often don't even realise it until they leave it behind.

Can you answer the question I asked that was raised by the tweet you quoted? If it is senior jockeys telling younger jockeys how to behave what happens when the problem is a senior jockey?



ETA I think I'm probably known on this forum for believing that it is often too hard on men,  but I am shocked at the women who think Dunne has been treated unfairly. 
.


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## The Fuzzy Furry (11 December 2021)

ycbm said:



			Women win medals at Olympic eventing every time.  Women ride race horse exercise daily.  There is a reason there are not more women jockeys over a fifth of the way through the 21st century and it's got nothing to do with them being women.
.
		
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For balance....
There are more women jockeys at top level than there is in motorsport  (cars: from touring, formula to F1 etc, and same in BSB, WSB and Moto GP). 
More female jockeys than in PGA too.
It's not just horse racing.


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## ycbm (11 December 2021)

The Xmas Furry said:



			For balance....
There are more women jockeys at top level than there is in motorsport  (cars: from touring, formula to F1 etc, and same in BSB, WSB and Moto GP).
More female jockeys than in PGA too.
It's not just horse racing.
		
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I'm not saying those sports don't have issues,  they probably do. I'm also not sure that "these sports are just as bad" is balance rather than extra weight to one side.  I would be surprised if the proportion of women capable of the sheer physical effort of winning an F1 race equalled the proportion of men who can do it. In golf,  women play off a different tee than men, and there are a large number of top women's competitions.  There is a reason why we have sex/ gender categories in sport. 

But horse riding is overwhelmingly a female dominated sport.   I understand,  though I haven't looked it up,  that the proportion of female staff looking after and riding the horses at home is very high (higher than male)? There's just no excuse for there to be so few women jockeys, and so few  being offered rides on horses capable of winning.  
.


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## neddy man (11 December 2021)

I think it will be interesting to watch ITV racings " the opening show" 0n ITV4 channel 24 at 9:30 this morning (Saturday) to see their thoughts on the verdict and how racing may differ in the future.


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## Goldenstar (11 December 2021)

Very few woman would be strong enough to drive an F1 car it’s really out there in terms of physical strength .
It’s how ever not relevant because the issue here is treatment of a professional jockey in her workplace it’s not about access to the profession sport it’s about a straightforward case of workplace bullying in a unsuitable environment and lack of professional attitude and control of what is acceptable .
Those running the racecourses have allowed an old fashioned fiefdom to persist in the weighing room that’s way out of date .
The set up should have been sorted sometime ago .
The issues with the valets should have been foreseen and managed instead they allowed this dinosaur system to persist.


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## Steerpike (11 December 2021)

merry neddy Christmas said:



			I think it will be interesting to watch ITV racings " the opening show" 0n ITV4 channel 24 at 9:30 this morning (Saturday) to see their thoughts on the verdict and how racing may differ in the future.
		
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Yes I'm waiting to see what they say.


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## blodwyn1 (11 December 2021)

I did not feel a positive support there for Bryony this morning and there was careful editing of the pja guy.  I wonder if they have been told to hold back in case. Of an appeal


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## Parrotperson (11 December 2021)

blodwyn1 said:



			I did not feel a positive support there for Bryony this morning and there was careful editing of the pja guy.  I wonder if they have been told to hold back in case. Of an appeal
		
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was out on a dog walk so didn't see it but not at all surprised about that. From yesterday's coverage it seemed to me that Francesca Cumani was very concerned about the attitude they weer taking and tried to say so. Good for her. 

THERE SHOULD BE NO DOUBT HERE. Support for Bryony should be unequivocal and universal ESP rom the PJA and the BHA. 

The fact that it isn't is telling. 

I am going to email the CEO. here. ps@thepja.co.uk

Hers the address if you feel like writing 

The Professional Jockeys Association (PJA)
39B Kingfisher Court
Hambridge Road
Newbury
RG14 5SJ

I think we have a duty ti let them know how wrong they are.


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## Fellewell (11 December 2021)

minesadouble said:



			That does not render her sentiment 'not worth listening to'.
I don't consider Frost a 'threat' to the male jockeys at all either, if that were the reason behind Dunne's actions why didn't behave similarly towards Rachael Blackmore who is a way more successful rider  than Frost?
		
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Completely agree, Blackmore's faultless performance in the National was amazing. It is extremely patronising to portray female jockeys as Stepford wives. They just want to get on with their jobs away from this negative media circus.
This was a show trial, brought about by a very media savvy young woman who wanted to inflict maximum damage. She may live to rue the day she refused the option of conflict resolution suggested by her father.
It's also worth remembering that men are subject to bullying in the workplace and men can be sexually abused and threatened too. Lets not demonise them altogether.


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## DiNozzo (11 December 2021)

Fellewell said:



			Completely agree, Blackmore's faultless performance in the National was amazing. It is extremely patronising to portray female jockeys as Stepford wives. They just want to get on with their jobs away from this negative media circus.
This was a show trial, brought about by a very media savvy young woman who wanted to inflict maximum damage. She may live to rue the day she refused the option of conflict resolution suggested by her father.
It's also worth remembering that men are subject to bullying in the workplace and men can be sexually abused and threatened too. Lets not demonise them altogether.
		
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How disgusting.

Frost has been _proven_ to be bullied by Dunne. Whether she is 'media savvy' or not has nothing to do with it. A trial (/process?) has been conducted and found what she has said to be true. 

What do other men being bullied and sexually abused have anything to do with this? No one has said that it isn't true, it just isn't relevant to the true, and proven fact, that Dunne bullied Frost.


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## ycbm (11 December 2021)

Fellewell said:



			Completely agree, Blackmore's faultless performance in the National was amazing. It is extremely patronising to portray female jockeys as Stepford wives. They just want to get on with their jobs away from this negative media circus.
This was a show trial, brought about by a very media savvy young woman who wanted to inflict maximum damage. She may live to rue the day she refused the option of conflict resolution suggested by her father.
It's also worth remembering that men are subject to bullying in the workplace and men can be sexually abused and threatened too. Lets not demonise them altogether.
		
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I don't see anyone on this thread demonising men.  

If you're female this is enough to turn me into a badge carrying placard waving  feminist and that's really saying something! 

Bryony did not take this case to court,  the British Horseracing Authority did.  Bryony wasn't on the bench,  three independent lawyers(?) were.  

Oh,  and all grown women should obviously do what their daddies tell them to 🤣,  especially when Daddy is himself part of the old establishment.  
.


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## Fellewell (11 December 2021)

Oh it's justice you're after is it? Because most of you seem to want his head on a plate. Now that's disgusting!


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## NinjaPony (11 December 2021)

The attitudes of some posters helps to explain why Dunne was able to bully Frost for so long. No one wants his ‘head on a plate’, they want justice to be carried out, which it has. The case has been ruled, he has been found guilty and punished accordingly. Nothing disgusting about that. His behaviour? Now that’s disgusting.


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## Tiddlypom (11 December 2021)

It's a bit like the discussion about hunting, really. With 'supporters' like these, who needs enemies 🙄.

So very blind to the issues faced, and so very keen to deflect any blame.


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## Archangel (11 December 2021)

ycbm said:



			Oh,  and all grown women should obviously do what their daddies tell them to 🤣,  especially when Daddy is himself part of the old establishment. 
.
		
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Furthermore...
What did Dunne's father suggest his son should do?
Has anyone mentioned it?

Didn't think so.
.


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## Andie02 (11 December 2021)

Archangel said:



			Furthermore...
What did Dunne's father suggest his son should do?
Has anyone mentioned it?

Didn't think so.
.
		
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Or his wife. Guessing she wouldn't be too happy to find out he had been wanging his willy about, and considering she gave birth recently.


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## splashgirl45 (11 December 2021)

It wasn’t dumbed father is was jimmy frost who wanted them to sort it out , he probably knew his daughter wouldn’t come out of it well as the jockeys wouldn’t like a whistle blower


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## Shilasdair (11 December 2021)

Fellewell said:



			Oh it's justice you're after is it? Because most of you seem to want his head on a plate. Now that's disgusting!
		
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Oh stop with the 'Poor, poor, Roobie Dunne' emotive nonsense.
All the poor man did was systematically name-call, wave his penis at, and threaten a jockey who has a more successful record than him (not hard) at a much younger age.   All recorded on camera, by witnesses, incidentally so it isn't 'Frost's story' or 'Dunne's story'.
And an INDEPENDENT panel found him guilty, and banned him for 15 months with 3 months suspended (there's a good reason for that 3 months hanging over him too).
From the panel's findings, poor ickle Dunne wouldn't know the truth if it slapped him in the face either.
And here you are, victim-blaming.
YOUR opinion disgusts me.


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## splashgirl45 (11 December 2021)

Sorry, that should have said dunnes father , phone keeps changing the spelling


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## Shilasdair (11 December 2021)

splashgirl45 said:



			It wasn’t dumbed father is was jimmy frost who wanted them to sort it out , he probably knew his daughter wouldn’t come out of it well as the jockeys wouldn’t like a whistle blower
		
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I think the point Archangel was making was that everyone is implying that Frost's father 'owns' Bryony and therefore she should obey him in typical patriarchal style by meeting up with her willy-waving abuser to 'sort things out'.
Whereas no one is saying 'Dunne's father thought he should jump in the sea, he should have obeyed' (for example).


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## splashgirl45 (11 December 2021)

I must have missed dunnes father saying anything so assumed they meant hers.. it’s all getting very complicated


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## Shilasdair (11 December 2021)

splashgirl45 said:



			I must have missed dunnes father saying anything so assumed they meant hers.. it’s all getting very complicated
		
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And that's the point - why is Frost's father even brought into this?     Should NOT be his business.


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## splashgirl45 (11 December 2021)

I would assume he had tried to stop his daughter being the focus of so much I’ll will and wanted it sorted out behind closed doors. He obviously knows what the weighing room culture is like


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## Fellewell (11 December 2021)

Shilasdair said:



			Oh stop with the 'Poor, poor, Roobie Dunne' emotive nonsense.
All the poor man did was systematically name-call, wave his penis at, and threaten a jockey who has a more successful record than him (not hard) at a much younger age.   All recorded on camera, by witnesses, incidentally so it isn't 'Frost's story' or 'Dunne's story'.
And an INDEPENDENT panel found him guilty, and banned him for 15 months with 3 months suspended (there's a good reason for that 3 months hanging over him too).
From the panel's findings, poor ickle Dunne wouldn't know the truth if it slapped him in the face either.
And here you are, victim-blaming.
YOUR opinion disgusts me.
		
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Don't you dare tell me to stop. Your opinions are so ill-informed you don't know who's male and who's female when you're trying to insult the jockeys. You're a joke.


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## honetpot (11 December 2021)

Fellewell said:



			Don't you dare tell me to stop. Your opinions are so ill-informed you don't know who's male and who's female when you're trying to insult the jockeys. You're a joke.
		
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## minesadouble (11 December 2021)

There seem to be two different angles here, those saying that bullying  and sexism is endemic in racing and those saying BF was singled out. 
I don't  work in a racing yard but know a few who do and they all say they have never been aware of a bullying/sexist culture. 
I think a lot of people in racing are a bit upset that it is getting such a bad name when they love their jobs and have never witnessed the negativity people now seem to be assuming is commonplace. 

With regard to the Dunne/Frost situation the sentence was to make an example of him and discourage others from bullying behaviour. 
I always feel some sympathy for those who are 'made an example of' and receive a harsh sentence but, as (I think) GS said, if he hadn't got himself in that situation in the first place...


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## Parrotperson (11 December 2021)

Apropos nothing at all (but you know women and what we face) this just on Twitter. 



__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1466345896883494913
Honest to god you couldn’t make it up.

as to Dunne do I think his sentence too harsh?  On reflection no not particularly.
Let’s see if he takes it to a court of law. I wonder what his lawyers are advising him about whether he could win there.


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## minesadouble (11 December 2021)

OK, genuine question for everyone because I'm interested in the answers and because I feel my own personality affects the way I view the whole debacle :

From everything you have read would YOU have felt intimidated and upset enough to take action or would you have told him to F*** off and got on with your day? 
I know everyone is different but I know how I  would have dealt it and it certainly would not have upset or intimidated me personally.


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## Parrotperson (11 December 2021)

And here is a very good article. Sorry if it’s already been mentioned!
https://www.sportinglife.com/racing...nd-what-now-for-dunne-and-bryony-frost/196790


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## bonny (11 December 2021)

minesadouble said:



			OK, genuine question for everyone because I'm interested in the answers and because I feel my own personality affects the way I view the whole debacle :

From everything you have read would YOU have felt intimidated and upset enough to take action or would you have told him to F*** off and got on with your day?
I know everyone is different but I know how I  would have dealt it and it certainly would not have upset or intimidated me personally.
		
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That’s totally irrelevant, it wasn’t about you


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## cold_feet (11 December 2021)

minesadouble said:



			OK, genuine question for everyone because I'm interested in the answers and because I feel my own personality affects the way I view the whole debacle :

From everything you have read would YOU have felt intimidated and upset enough to take action or would you have told him to F*** off and got on with your day?
I know everyone is different but I know how I  would have dealt it and it certainly would not have upset or intimidated me personally.
		
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Probably both, and would have felt demeaned and threatened as a result.


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## minesadouble (11 December 2021)

bonny said:



			That’s totally irrelevant, it wasn’t about you
		
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No it wasn't, but as I said I'm interested in the views of others otherwise i wouldn't have asked.


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## bonny (11 December 2021)

minesadouble said:



			No it wasn't, but as I said I'm interested in the views of others otherwise i wouldn't have asked.
		
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You should start a new thread then and ask how much crap people are prepared to put up with but asking on here and saying what happened to Bryony wouldn’t have bothered you is insulting and like I said, irrelevant.


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## fankino04 (11 December 2021)

minesadouble said:



			OK, genuine question for everyone because I'm interested in the answers and because I feel my own personality affects the way I view the whole debacle :

From everything you have read would YOU have felt intimidated and upset enough to take action or would you have told him to F*** off and got on with your day? 
I know everyone is different but I know how I  would have dealt it and it certainly would not have upset or intimidated me personally.
		
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Maybe she didn't feel intimidated and upset by it maybe she felt angry and that enough was enough so she reported it, I don't know. Maybe instead of laughing along with the "banter" as all the others do (whether they find it funny or not), she did tell him to F off, just perhaps given that she doesn't seem to be a popular person behind the scenes, that F off was enough to tip the "banter" to targeted bullying (as elf said she is regarded as a two faced, arrogant b!tch, apologies for the paraphrasing elf), and as others don't like her they didn't step in to help her. Obviously I know nothing of what actually happened behind the scenes, but she didn't need to feel scared in order to take action, neither should she have had to put up with an outdated culture just because its how it always was.


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## Ellibelli (11 December 2021)

minesadouble said:



			OK, genuine question for everyone because I'm interested in the answers and because I feel my own personality affects the way I view the whole debacle :

From everything you have read would YOU have felt intimidated and upset enough to take action or would you have told him to F*** off and got on with your day?
I know everyone is different but I know how I  would have dealt it and it certainly would not have upset or intimidated me personally.
		
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I agree with other posters that it's not really relevant what you or I would do, but for the record if it had been a one off I would've told him to F*** off and got on with my day but if that didn't put a stop to his actions I would've then taken action - and this case was clearly not a one off! I worked in a very male dominated industry for years and when I think back to the sh*t I tolerated for a quiet life I shake my head in shame...


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## Kadastorm (11 December 2021)

She felt affected by it enough to report what was going on and so it doesn’t matter how anyone else may have reacted to it. I am a very anxious person who cannot deal with confrontation due to previous DV. I try not to show my emotions in front of people but behind closed doors, events from the day may really get to me.

anyway, I just feel really upset for BF as itvracing just kept going on and not really showing any support for her but kept going on about the use of the word rancid and how everyone was lovely inf the weighing room. Clearly that is not the case when RD has just been found guilty of bullying and harassment 😒


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## Arzada (11 December 2021)

Parrotperson said:



			And here is a very good article. Sorry if it’s already been mentioned!
https://www.sportinglife.com/racing...nd-what-now-for-dunne-and-bryony-frost/196790

Click to expand...

Excellent article. Thank you


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## honetpot (11 December 2021)

minesadouble said:



			OK, genuine question for everyone because I'm interested in the answers and because I feel my own personality affects the way I view the whole debacle :

From everything you have read would YOU have felt intimidated and upset enough to take action or would you have told him to F*** off and got on with your day?
I know everyone is different but I know how I  would have dealt it and it certainly would not have upset or intimidated me personally.
		
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I have bullied my self when I was young, and watched someone else being bullied at and supported them to take action. When it happened I would have been shocked and upset, and then I would have sewn him up like a turkey and sacked, which what I did in a work situation.
Bullies can make even the competent people doubt their judgement, and are experts at sowing doubts in other people minds.
It was difficult for BF because its obvious that the hierarchy and culture supported what was going on, so her only recourse was to as she did. Most work places have policies and procedures, there wasn't even a code of conduct for the changing rooms.
  What was apparent from ITV racing this morning was most didn't really understand the issues it raised, they were so focused on the word, 'rancid', which BF did not use, that they were making it worse.
  It also raises safeguarding issues, who is the safe guarding lead, and what is the safe guarding policy, as someone has rightly pointed out it's not just about women.


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## Pearlsasinger (11 December 2021)

minesadouble said:



			OK, genuine question for everyone because I'm interested in the answers and because I feel my own personality affects the way I view the whole debacle :

From everything you have read would YOU have felt intimidated and upset enough to take action or would you have told him to F*** off and got on with your day?
I know everyone is different but I know how I  would have dealt it and it certainly would not have upset or intimidated me personally.
		
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No, I wouldn't have been intimidated but I certainlhy would have reported Dunne's actions.  What on earth was he thinking of, exposing himself to her?  If he hadn't been  in the workplace, he should have been reprted to the police.  He was extremely lucky not to be reported to them and arrested as it was.


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## jnb (11 December 2021)

I am shocked tbh he hasn't found himself on a sexual assault charge, in any other workplace his behaviour is completely unacceptable and criminal.I can't get my head around how anyone can defend it. And the rest of the "old boy's club" (and their female, silent or otherwise, supporters), words fail me.


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## Steerpike (11 December 2021)

After watching the racing today I am actually quite disappointed in ITV and the jockeys, all they could concentrate on was the word rancid, well if the cap fits wear it, not one jockey or presenter stood up and said what happened was wrong, all of them were far to concerned about being called rancid which is pretty mild compared to what BF was called, and I can't see how they didnt know the bullying was going on. And as to the winning jockey Sam Twiston Davies saying about his Dad had big balls which was maybe why he had so many kids to Luke Harvey says a lot about the childish mentality of some of the jockeys.


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## Goldenstar (11 December 2021)

minesadouble said:



			OK, genuine question for everyone because I'm interested in the answers and because I feel my own personality affects the way I view the whole debacle :

From everything you have read would YOU have felt intimidated and upset enough to take action or would you have told him to F*** off and got on with your day? 
I know everyone is different but I know how I  would have dealt it and it certainly would not have upset or intimidated me personally.
		
Click to expand...

I would have thrown every book I could find at him .
The Willy waving incident was clearly misogynistic and had an undertone of sexual violence .
It’s a work place and the behaviour so below the standards I would expect to find in a work place that yes I would have formally pursued it .
I not a shrinking violet but why should anyone allow the workplace to descend in that sort of nonsense .


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## ycbm (11 December 2021)

minesadouble said:



			OK, genuine question for everyone because I'm interested in the answers and because I feel my own personality affects the way I view the whole debacle :

From everything you have read would YOU have felt intimidated and upset enough to take action or would you have told him to F*** off and got on with your day?
I know everyone is different but I know how I  would have dealt it and it certainly would not have upset or intimidated me personally.
		
Click to expand...


I would have told him to eff off,  got on with my day and then I hope I would have reported him for the sake of all the young/weaker men and women who don't have my combative nature and would accept that it's just racing "banter".

If I hadn't reported him it would not have been because I didn't think it should be reported,  but for fear of what I might bring down on myself if I did.

Bryony Frost has  my total respect.
.


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## tristar (11 December 2021)

Old school said:



			Mmm, here is my take on it after reading a fair bit on the topic.

I think that he had the hots for her at some point. She didn't reciprocate and his ego could not take rejection. Normally two people could avoid each other after this point. But no, their work environment required them to be in a state of undress in the same room. Maybe she cracked a joke with some other jock, got on ok with them. Mr. Bruised Ego could not hack it and decided to constantly have a go at her. The race riding incident was an aside that could conveniently be dragged into it..... Any thoughts??? Am I for the birds?

As any good Dub would say, he is a 'bleedin gobshite'.
		
Click to expand...


i was thinking on similar lines, and could not find a way of putting it, not exactly as you say,  but certainly a deeper undercurrent possibly

and we have no way of knowing bryony`s innocence  or experience of men, but as a young woman this was a very nasty way for any man to behave towards someone much younger than himself


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## YorksG (11 December 2021)

One of the things that strikes me about the indecent exposure, is that the way the women have to enter the male changing room, to access the valets, actually makes this slightly "defendable", in that it is likely that men will be naked in that room. It does not excuse his actions, but it would give him a smokescreen to hide behind iyswim.


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## Shilasdair (11 December 2021)

Fellewell said:



			Don't you dare tell me to stop. Your opinions are so ill-informed you don't know who's male and who's female when you're trying to insult the jockeys. You're a joke.
		
Click to expand...

Are you referring to this post?
https://forums.horseandhound.co.uk/threads/dunne-v-frost.812993/page-7#post-14787384


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## Tiddlypom (11 December 2021)

I don't think that poster does irony, Shils 🤣.


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## Shilasdair (11 December 2021)

Tiddlypom said:



			I don't think that poster does irony, Shils 🤣.
		
Click to expand...

Clearly I am overdoing subtlety , and will have to adopt a more accessible and inclusive style of posting.


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## tristar (11 December 2021)

minesadouble said:



			No it wasn't, but as I said I'm interested in the views of others otherwise i wouldn't have asked.
		
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i see it as she had the choices, she knees him in the knxckers, and is accused of being as bad as he is, takes no notice until its so bad she has an accident or breakdown, or gets the authorities to adjudicate on the situation

whatever she does someone will not approve

i wonder if social services approve of men who behave as he does, would there be any concerns for children raised by such individuals as he he appears to brazenly perform in public with no conception he is convicting himself


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## ozpoz (11 December 2021)

ester said:



			So it's ok?
		
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Aarghhh that is not what she is saying!
 Why can people not have opinions/ observations which might conflict with the majority? It is a worrying trend. .


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## ycbm (11 December 2021)

ozpoz said:



			Why can people not have opinions/ observations which might conflict with the majority? It is a worrying trend. .
		
Click to expand...

They can.  I often do.  You just have to accept that you are in a minority, unless you can come up with a more persuasive argument.

ETA being in a minority doesn't mean you are wrong,  (though it does make it more likely),  it just means you have not managed to convince others of your argument.  Either way,  that should give the person in the minority pause for thought.  
.


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## Shilasdair (11 December 2021)

minesadouble said:



			OK, genuine question for everyone because I'm interested in the answers and because I feel my own personality affects the way I view the whole debacle :

From everything you have read would YOU have felt intimidated and upset enough to take action or would you have told him to F*** off and got on with your day?
I know everyone is different but I know how I  would have dealt it and it certainly would not have upset or intimidated me personally.
		
Click to expand...

I haven't worked in racing but I can tell you what I did in as a student.
I studied a subject at Masters level, in a cohort of around 55 students, maybe 30 men to 25 women.  I was around Frost's age at the time - 25 or so.
I finished the Pg Dip (and won the Course Medal for being the top student  - this is relevant).
I then chose my Masters dissertation subject (60 credits worth) and booked my first tutorial with my tutor (we only were assigned one).
In my first meeting he said 'I don't think you should do this, it's far too difficult for a woman, it would be different if you were a bloke but a woman won't manage this'. 
We were not allowed to change tutor.  I went home, and didn't know what to do.  
He'd told me I couldn't do it - and we HAD to do it through our tutor, even submitting the final draft to them.
And then, a fellow livery who happened to be a lecturer at Stirling Uni said 'Do it without him!'.  
So I did.  I got permission to submit it to the Faculty Office rather than him.   I put in a complaint about his behaviour.   I did my MSc dissertation entirely on my own.  I did well, I got the course medal for the dissertation.   

But then, dear readers, I FORMALLY WITHDREW MY COMPLAINT.  I wanted a reference, I wanted a peaceful life.  
I regret my decision to this day - and the git is still 'lecturing' hapless women at the University.


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## ozpoz (11 December 2021)

ycbm said:



			They can.  I often do.  You just have to accept that you are in a minority, unless you can come up with a more persuasive argument.

ETA being in a minority doesn't mean you are wrong,  (though it does make it more likely),  it just means you have not managed to convince others of your argument.  Either way,  that should give the person in the minority pause for thought. 
.
		
Click to expand...

I think I have the minority view of looking at the whole picture, through a very wide lens, rather than going straight for who is right or wrong 😊 
It seems that it is not quite so very clear cut, saint and sinner.


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## minesadouble (11 December 2021)

I haven't read the full transcript, I don't even know if it is available. But with regard to the willy incident, if you're going into a male changing room you're probably going to see a penis! Maybe Dunne 'shook himself' at her because he felt affronted by her presence. 
Imagine we all compete in a female dominated sport and we all freely dress/undress and strip naked in the changing room then all of a sudden men start legitimately wandering in? I think there would be an outrage, I'm not quite sure why it's different for men?


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## bonny (11 December 2021)

ozpoz said:



			I think I have the minority view of looking at the whole picture, through a very wide lens, rather than going straight for who is right or wrong 😊
It seems that it is not quite so very clear cut, saint and sinner.
		
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There was six days of evidence, what do you think everybody else has missed?


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## ycbm (11 December 2021)

ozpoz said:



			I think I have the minority view of looking at the whole picture, through a very wide lens, rather than going straight for who is right or wrong 😊
It seems that it is not quite so very clear cut, saint and sinner.
		
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It was clear cut enough for a panel of 3 independent lawyers after a 6 day hearing.  That's good enough for me.  
.


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## Pearlsasinger (11 December 2021)

ozpoz said:



			I think I have the minority view of looking at the whole picture, through a very wide lens, rather than going straight for who is right or wrong 😊
It seems that it is not quite so very clear cut, saint and sinner.
		
Click to expand...


Whereas, because of my background, I look at it from the pov 'Is this acceptable behaviour in the workplace?'  And the answer is a resounding 'NO!'  Would there have been any discussion about it's acceptability in any other  workplace?  Of course not - and not just because most workplaces don't have changing rooms. Just imagine if, in a clothes shop, one of the assistants started exposing himself to a colleague.  If a customer did that, security would be straight in and the police called.


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## ycbm (11 December 2021)

minesadouble said:



			Imagine we all compete in a female dominated sport and we all freely dress/undress and strip naked in the changing room then all of a sudden men start legitimately wandering in? I think there would be an outrage, I'm not quite sure why it's different for men?
		
Click to expand...

All of a sudden?  There have been female jockies for a very long time now.  If the men were affronted by women being FORCED to use valets in their changing area they, being the vast majority,   had the power to get it changed.  The women,  I understand,  tried and have failed.   Decent men would have been insisting it was changed, for the sake of both sexes/genders when the first female jockey was allowed to race.  
.


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## minesadouble (11 December 2021)

ycbm said:



			All of a sudden?  There have been female jockies for a very long time now.  If the men were affronted by women being FORCED to use valets in their changing area they, being the majority,   had the power to get it changed.  The women,  I understand,  tried and have failed.   Decent men would have been insisting it was changed long ago.
.
		
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OK then, not 'all of a sudden' but imagine if men were, in any circumstance, permitted to enter a female changing area? There would be an absolute outrage. Is this because we women are so delicate we can't hear to be seen naked by the opposite sex and men are so tough they are expected to be happy to deal with it? If we are talking about equality we have a long way to go and need to recognise it works both ways.


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## ycbm (11 December 2021)

minesadouble said:



			OK then, not 'all of a sudden' but imagine if men were, in any circumstance, permitted to enter a female changing area? There would be an absolute outrage. Is this because we women are so delicate we can't hear to be seen naked by the opposite sex and men are so tough they are expected to be happy to deal with it? If we are talking about equality we have a long way to go and need to recognise it works both ways.
		
Click to expand...

They women weren't "permitted" to go into the male changing area,  they were forced!  They couldn't race if they didn't.  The men had  every opportunity to refuse to accept it,  and that's exactly what they should have done. 

Why didn't they?
.


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## ycbm (11 December 2021)

Minesadouble are you  questioning why women are more afraid of unwanted sexual attention/ violence from men than men are from women?  It sounds like it. 
.


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## SaddlePsych'D (11 December 2021)

minesadouble said:



			I haven't read the full transcript, I don't even know if it is available. But with regard to the willy incident, if you're going into a male changing room you're probably going to see a penis! Maybe Dunne 'shook himself' at her because he felt affronted by her presence.
		
Click to expand...

Just catching up on this thread but...wow...if you're "affronted by someone's presence" surely there are some steps before you get to take before resorting to waving your genitals around at them?!


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## minesadouble (11 December 2021)

ycbm said:



			Minesadouble are you  questioning why women are more afraid of unwanted sexual attention/ violence from men than men are from women?  It sounds like it.
.
		
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I made a pretty straightforward statement about men being expected to accept the oppsite sex in a changing area whilst the same would never be expected of women. 
Do we want equality or do we want special treatment when it suits us?


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## bonny (11 December 2021)

minesadouble said:



			I made a pretty straightforward statement about men being expected to accept the oppsite sex in a changing area whilst the same would never be expected of women.
Do we want equality or do we want special treatment when it suits us?
		
Click to expand...

I think you are missing the point, I have never heard a female jockey saying she had a problem with the set up, including Bryony frost. It’s what Robbie Dunne did to her that she objected to and I highly doubt that was normal behaviour by the male jockeys.


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## Goldenstar (11 December 2021)

minesadouble said:



			OK then, not 'all of a sudden' but imagine if men were, in any circumstance, permitted to enter a female changing area? There would be an absolute outrage. Is this because we women are so delicate we can't hear to be seen naked by the opposite sex and men are so tough they are expected to be happy to deal with it? If we are talking about equality we have a long way to go and need to recognise it works both ways.
		
Click to expand...

Woman had no choice but to enter the weighting room to do their job .Dunne had no right to be affronted by her presence .
As I said further up the thread this those running the racecourses needed to rethink and reorganise the whole valet /changing room situation earlier .
But that does not change the fact that those independently looking at the facts had no trouble in deciding that the Willy incident was an aggressive act .
Bullying in the work place is not ever acceptable .Those running racing have a duty of care in law in respect of this .
It was not BF’s fault that the organisation of the sport was behind the curve in sorting this changing weighting valet situation .
But Dunne was in control of his actions if he had behaved well he would not be in this situation .


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## DiNozzo (11 December 2021)

minesadouble said:



			I made a pretty straightforward statement about men being expected to accept the oppsite sex in a changing area whilst the same would never be expected of women.
Do we want equality or do we want special treatment when it suits us?
		
Click to expand...

Even if Dunne did have an issue (which he’d be well within his rights to have), the answer would be to campaign formally within the structures that exist.

He does NOT EVER have the right to do what he did to Frost.

Anyone who defends that sort of behaviour needs to take a long look at why they think that. It is NEVER okay to be abusive.

ETA: have edited because I was unaware of the connotations of the word I used previously. My apologies to anyone I upset or insulted with that word.


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## ycbm (11 December 2021)

minesadouble said:



			I made a pretty straightforward statement about men being expected to accept the oppsite sex in a changing area whilst the same would never be expected of women.
Do we want equality or do we want special treatment when it suits us?
		
Click to expand...

Are you seriously asking why women may be more concerned about being in an area with naked men in it than men (who may be naked or covered by choice)  are concerned about being in an area with clothed women in it?

Are you for real?
.


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## Rowreach (11 December 2021)

I’ve been reading the comments on and off today and I find the attitudes of some to be utterly disheartening.

From my own actual experiences of bullying in the workplace (twice by the same person with a two year gap) and the work I now do supporting women in coaching going through the same thing, I know far more about the subject than I would like.

Serial bullies don’t pick on the weakest. That’s no fun, no challenge, and doesn’t get the laughs. They pick on the ones who are tough, often not particularly popular with their peers (therefore lacking immediate backup) - ring any bells? - and they wear them down. Their mates also think the target is tough and can take it, so they do nothing to stop it and when it gets too uncomfortable, it’s too late, so they act like it’s just a bit of banter and the way it’s always been. The MO usually includes being very nice to other colleagues so that they can’t imagine what the victim can possibly mean when they call out the behaviour. Hence the “I never experienced any bullying” comments from others. 

What the inquiry found (for those of you who cba to read any of the reports yet still want to air your views) is that Dunne mounted a campaign of targeted bullying against Frost over a 7 month period.

So it’s not about kicking off in the heat of the moment, it’s not about “accidentally” dropping a towel in a changing room, it’s about a grown up man abusing and threatening an individual in the workplace with the intent to cause maximum distress (and to make himself feel like a big important person).

I find it incredibly sad that there are people (women) on here who have so little empathy or respect for someone who has had the strength and perseverance to call Dunne out, deal with all the vitriol, and still be doing her job, riding multiple winners, and not revelling in the vindication of the inquiry findings but just wanting to crack on and ride racehorses.


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## ycbm (11 December 2021)

Rowreach said:



			I’ve been reading the comments on and off today and I find the attitudes of some to be utterly disheartening.

From my own actual experiences of bullying in the workplace (twice by the same person with a two year gap) and the work I now do supporting women in coaching going through the same thing, I know far more about the subject than I would like.

Serial bullies don’t pick on the weakest. That’s no fun, no challenge, and doesn’t get the laughs. They pick on the ones who are tough, often not particularly popular with their peers (therefore lacking immediate backup) - ring any bells? - and they wear them down. Their mates also think the target is tough and can take it, so they do nothing to stop it and when it gets too uncomfortable, it’s too late, so they act like it’s just a bit of banter and the way it’s always been. The MO usually includes being very nice to other colleagues so that they can’t imagine what the victim can possibly mean when they call out the behaviour. Hence the “I never experienced any bullying” comments from others.

What the inquiry found (for those of you who cba to read any of the reports yet still want to air your views) is that Dunne mounted a campaign of targeted bullying against Frost over a 7 month period.

So it’s not about kicking off in the heat of the moment, it’s not about “accidentally” dropping a towel in a changing room, it’s about a grown up man abusing and threatening an individual in the workplace with the intent to cause maximum distress (and to make himself feel like a big important person).

I find it incredibly sad that there are people (women) on here who have so little empathy or respect for someone who has had the strength and perseverance to call Dunne out, deal with all the vitriol, and still be doing her job, riding multiple winners, and not revelling in the vindication of the inquiry findings but just wanting to crack on and ride racehorses.
		
Click to expand...

Well said.  I think I'm pretty well known for supporting men against what i perceive to be undue criticism on this forum,  but it's very depressing to read this thread,  RR. 
.


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## Goldenstar (11 December 2021)

DiNozzo said:



			Even if Dunne did have an issue (which he’d be well within his rights to have), the answer would be to campaign formally within the structures that exist.

He does NOT EVER have the right to do what he did to Frost. 

Anyone who defends that sort of behaviour is an absolute cretin. It is NEVER okay to be abusive.
		
Click to expand...

Please don’t call someone a cretin it’s unfair to those who are born with the condition.


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## Pearlsasinger (11 December 2021)

DiNozzo said:



			Even if Dunne did have an issue (which he’d be well within his rights to have), the answer would be to campaign formally within the structures that exist.

He does NOT EVER have the right to do what he did to Frost.

Anyone who defends that sort of behaviour is an absolute cretin. It is NEVER okay to be abusive.
		
Click to expand...


You might want to edit this, especially given what you said about it never being ok to be abusive


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## Flicker (11 December 2021)

From my own experience of being bullied by a man, in a male-dominated environment, so much of what BF reported resonates.  
I recognised the behaviour of a male who, for whatever reason and I really don’t care what his reason was, chose to target me for ridicule, condescension and rudeness.  To other women we worked with he was a cheeky, charming chap who made them laugh.  It was very difficult to demonstrate how his treatment of me was different, but his barbs were sharper, his put-downs crueller and when there was nobody to witness the conversation he was downright abusive.  He once told me to ‘do your *&^%$£@ job, if you are even capable of doing that’.
I did challenge him.  Once.  He’d levelled a particularly nasty and sarcastic comment to me in the form of a joke, in front of colleagues.  I asked him to please stop with the comments and leave me alone.  He told me I was being over-sensitive and hysterical.
I also recognise being told by the CEO of the company that the ‘banter’ was just part of the culture of the organisation and it was my problem if I was upset by it.  Perhaps, he suggested, I was just a bit uptight and maybe we did things differently in South Africa.  Anyway, he didn’t want me changing things to where people were afraid to be ‘spontaneous’.
When I finally left the company, I told him on my leaving do that part of the reason for leaving was him.  He tried to tell me that it was nothing personal, and the girl from the company he was seeing at the time told me that I had just misunderstood his humour and he was, really, ’a real softie’.
With behaviour like this, where the institution is stacked in favour of one particular demographic of employee, you really don’t stand a chance.  However you try to address the issue or deal with the behaviour, you will lose.  
I think BF has been incredibly brave.
The only good that can now come of this very unedifying spectacle is for the industry to sit down and take a long hard look at why it has found itself in the news a lot in recent months for all the wrong reasons.  It is clear that there is a real culture shift needed.


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## DiNozzo (11 December 2021)

Goldenstar said:



			Please don’t call someone a [] it’s unfair to those who are born with the condition.
		
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Pearlsacarolsinger said:



			You might want to edit this, especially given what you said about it never being ok to be abusive
		
Click to expand...

Have done. Apologies, I was unaware of the connotations of the word.


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## ester (11 December 2021)

ozpoz said:



			Aarghhh that is not what she is saying!
Why can people not have opinions/ observations which might conflict with the majority? It is a worrying trend. .
		
Click to expand...

Ermm it was a genuine question sincerely meant because it seemed like the question previoulsy posed had not been answered just skirted around it so I was requesting clarification that wasn't then given. I was requesting their opinion not saying they can't have it?! (albeit a few days ago now) 

Overall I'm not sure why people aren't just nice to others, why behave like an arsehole what does it give you?


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## neddy man (11 December 2021)

I have just had another look at his go fund me page (now £2.5k) and the comments are ridiculous, especially one about windmilling that sounds like his towel less wriggle, he got what he deserved.


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## MotherOfChickens (12 December 2021)

Rowreach said:



			I’ve been reading the comments on and off today and I find the attitudes of some to be utterly disheartening.

From my own actual experiences of bullying in the workplace (twice by the same person with a two year gap) and the work I now do supporting women in coaching going through the same thing, I know far more about the subject than I would like.

Serial bullies don’t pick on the weakest. That’s no fun, no challenge, and doesn’t get the laughs. They pick on the ones who are tough, often not particularly popular with their peers (therefore lacking immediate backup) - ring any bells? - and they wear them down. Their mates also think the target is tough and can take it, so they do nothing to stop it and when it gets too uncomfortable, it’s too late, so they act like it’s just a bit of banter and the way it’s always been. The MO usually includes being very nice to other colleagues so that they can’t imagine what the victim can possibly mean when they call out the behaviour. Hence the “I never experienced any bullying” comments from others.

What the inquiry found (for those of you who cba to read any of the reports yet still want to air your views) is that Dunne mounted a campaign of targeted bullying against Frost over a 7 month period.

So it’s not about kicking off in the heat of the moment, it’s not about “accidentally” dropping a towel in a changing room, it’s about a grown up man abusing and threatening an individual in the workplace with the intent to cause maximum distress (and to make himself feel like a big important person).

I find it incredibly sad that there are people (women) on here who have so little empathy or respect for someone who has had the strength and perseverance to call Dunne out, deal with all the vitriol, and still be doing her job, riding multiple winners, and not revelling in the vindication of the inquiry findings but just wanting to crack on and ride racehorses.
		
Click to expand...

thank you Rowreach, so sick of those who are victims of bullying being seen as weak, or not being able to stand up for themselves-it’s utter bull.


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## Tiddlypom (12 December 2021)

ycbm said:



			Well said.  I think I'm pretty well known for supporting men against what i perceive to be undue criticism on this forum,  but it's very depressing to read this thread,  RR.
.
		
Click to expand...

Me too. I'm very comfortable around blokes, and have copped some criticism in the past for saying that I have never personally felt threatened by a male presence, but some of the views spouted by females on this thread are so . 

Racing needs to step up and own and address the issues in its ranks, not dismiss them.


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## Berpisc (12 December 2021)

ester said:



			Ermm it was a genuine question sincerely meant because it seemed like the question previoulsy posed had not been answered just skirted around it so I was requesting clarification that wasn't then given. I was requesting their opinion not saying they can't have it?! (albeit a few days ago now)

Overall I'm not sure why people aren't just nice to others, why behave like an arsehole what does it give you?
		
Click to expand...

Sadly some people get a buzz out of it I think, or the feeling of power it gives them. Not a pleasant trait at all.


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## Goldenstar (12 December 2021)

ester said:



			Ermm it was a genuine question sincerely meant because it seemed like the question previoulsy posed had not been answered just skirted around it so I was requesting clarification that wasn't then given. I was requesting their opinion not saying they can't have it?! (albeit a few days ago now) 

Overall I'm not sure why people aren't just nice to others, why behave like an arsehole what does it give you?
		
Click to expand...

It’s is about power , and this case I do think the fact that BF is a woman was a factor in her being chosen as Dunnes target.


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## Pearlsasinger (12 December 2021)

ester said:



			Overall I'm not sure why people aren't just nice to others, why behave like an arsehole what does it give you?
		
Click to expand...


It gives some people with low self-esteem a feeling of power over others, particularly those they see as strong in some way.   Unfortunately there are people who are only happy when they bring other people down.  They measure their self-worth against other people's misery.  It's quite sad, really but it doesn't make bullying behaviour acceptable.


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## Rowreach (12 December 2021)

One of the cases I'm currently involved with is a woman in her 60s who targets every other woman in the team, especially the youngest. She's been in post for 6 years. The longest serving team member has been there just over a year, but was furloughed for most of that time, and is now off sick with stress. The others are actively job hunting. 

Quotes from management so far have been "she has high standards, that's why she is harsh", and "she's always been like that", and "it's her way of showing that she cares". 

In the same breath, management are asking why there's such a big turnover of people in the team and what they can possibly do to address it.

Managers are female. We've a long way to go.


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## Red-1 (12 December 2021)

I used to work in a very male dominated industry, and have some harrowing tales of sexual harassment and abuse.

The whole ethos was that women should see it as banter, but, TBH, it went way beyond that. If any woman complained, she was held up as an example as to why women should not be allowed in the group. They are weak and troublemakers to boot.

The trouble is, when you are there, you kind of have to buy into the banter - or leave.

One female had her breast fondled, complained, and was moved. Sure  made me less likely to try an official complaint. If you didn't allow the abuse, touching, sexualisation etc, you were told that you would be put into danger.

I did stand up to it, unofficially, and, unofficially, supported colleagues who were similarly beleaguered. I eventually moved to a different area, never did do anything official, I don't think I had the power to do so and also keep my job. I am no pushover, people would be surprised, knowing me, that I put up with any of it!

For this reason, I applaud Briony Frost. Never heard of her before, don't follow racing, never heard of whassisname Dunne either. But, I do know how these situations can pan out, and think that she is brave.

As for the changing room situation, yes, that is institutionalised sexism, and also needs to change. But, in an improved area of the organisation I worked for, we also had to change in front of each other. We managed to strip to knickers and bra, keeping ourselves to ourselves, no genital organs were waved in my face. No one stared, we just got on with it. We had shared, communal showers, but somehow managed to arrange times for females to use them and times for males.

It is called being professional and a decent human being.

I do remember when one person arrived, who had made complaints in the past. Everyone was wary. No need to worry, she too was a trailblazer and improved the working atmosphere for everyone, sending some people kicking and screaming into the present.

As for the 'me too' wave... I never did complain, and one perpetrator in particular was awful and should have been reported. But, if someone else did complain and was not believed, then I too would come out of the woodwork to tell my tale, even now, 30 years later, as I know that, if someone did complain, she would still likely not be believed. I wouldn't do it for myself, but would back up someone else. I guess I too would then be slated for joining the me too brigade?


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## Flicker (12 December 2021)

OMG Red-1 the example of the woman who was groped is horrific.

I’ve been re-reading this thread and reflecting on why some of the posts on here feel so problematic for me.  I think it’s because there seems to be a group of people who feel that BF has presented as the ‘wrong’ type of victim.  In other words, her behaviour or the way she has presented herself, has warranted some or all of the behaviour levelled against her.  That it is somehow a worse character flaw to be confident, or enthusiastic, or present differently in different situations than it is to threaten violence or use abusive language or aggressively and provocatively expose yourself in the workplace.

To me, this attitude is reminiscent of ’what was she wearing‘ or ‘she provoked him’ - that in some way women invite violence, abuse or aggression if they do not conform and comply with society‘s (frankly unachievable) standards for how they should behave, how they should look, how they should respond when attacked, how big, small, loud, quiet, fat, skinny, light, dark, successful, independent, nurturing they should be etc etc etc.

It’s disturbing.  We need to recognise it when it happens.


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## Shilasdair (12 December 2021)

I think this video may sum things up - warning NSFW - swearing.

A message from women everywhere


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## paisley (12 December 2021)

In support of venomous harridans everywhere


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## bonny (12 December 2021)

The PJA seem to have changed their tune today.


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## The Fuzzy Furry (12 December 2021)

bonny said:



			The PJA seem to have changed their tune today.
		
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Link?


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## Rowreach (12 December 2021)

The Xmas Furry said:



			Link?
		
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www.sportinglife.com


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## Tiddlypom (12 December 2021)

PJA

_“We have a job to support both and we had one member making very serious allegations and another maintaining their innocence of all bar one of them.

“We were trying to find the words that walked that tightrope and we understand why it has caused the issues that it has and why we do want to make clear that we do accept the disciplinary panel’s finding that Bryony was bullied and the language used was deeply and grossly inappropriate.

“We certainly accept we could have phrased it differently, I think there is that balance between the two polar opposite positions of the individuals involved in this case.”_


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## Old school (12 December 2021)

https://fb.watch/9RH3A4dVTV/

One media persons response about the overseeing bodies.


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## Pearlsasinger (12 December 2021)

Red-1 said:



			I used to work in a very male dominated industry, and have some harrowing tales of sexual harassment and abuse.

The whole ethos was that women should see it as banter, but, TBH, it went way beyond that. If any woman complained, she was held up as an example as to why women should not be allowed in the group. They are weak and troublemakers to boot.

The trouble is, when you are there, you kind of have to buy into the banter - or leave.

One female had her breast fondled, complained, and was moved. Sure  made me less likely to try an official complaint. If you didn't allow the abuse, touching, sexualisation etc, you were told that you would be put into danger.

I did stand up to it, unofficially, and, unofficially, supported colleagues who were similarly beleaguered. I eventually moved to a different area, never did do anything official, I don't think I had the power to do so and also keep my job. I am no pushover, people would be surprised, knowing me, that I put up with any of it!

For this reason, I applaud Briony Frost. Never heard of her before, don't follow racing, never heard of whassisname Dunne either. But, I do know how these situations can pan out, and think that she is brave.

As for the changing room situation, yes, that is institutionalised sexism, and also needs to change. But, in an improved area of the organisation I worked for, we also had to change in front of each other. We managed to strip to knickers and bra, keeping ourselves to ourselves, no genital organs were waved in my face. No one stared, we just got on with it. We had shared, communal showers, but somehow managed to arrange times for females to use them and times for males.

It is called being professional and a decent human being.

I do remember when one person arrived, who had made complaints in the past. Everyone was wary. No need to worry, she too was a trailblazer and improved the working atmosphere for everyone, sending some people kicking and screaming into the present.

As for the 'me too' wave... I never did complain, and one perpetrator in particular was awful and should have been reported. But, if someone else did complain and was not believed, then I too would come out of the woodwork to tell my tale, even now, 30 years later, as I know that, if someone did complain, she would still likely not be believed. I wouldn't do it for myself, but would back up someone else. I guess I too would then be slated for joining the me too brigade?
		
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I'm afraid that has left me feeling very disappointed.   Can I ask why you didn't make a complaint as you were leaving?  That might have helped those coming along behind you.


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## Pearlsasinger (12 December 2021)

Tiddlypom said:



			PJA

_“We have a job to support both and we had one member making very serious allegations and another maintaining their innocence of all bar one of them._

_“We were trying to find the words that walked that tightrope and we understand why it has caused the issues that it has and why we do want to make clear that we do accept the disciplinary panel’s finding that Bryony was bullied and the language used was deeply and grossly inappropriate._

_“We certainly accept we could have phrased it differently, I think there is that balance between the two polar opposite positions of the individuals involved in this case.”_

Click to expand...


Ther are plenty of unions that manage torepresent 2 opposing parties without making such a hash of it.  They could always have said they were unable to comment until after the hearing and then commented properly on the findings.


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## Flicker (12 December 2021)

Shilasdair said:



			I think this video may sum things up - warning NSFW - swearing.

A message from women everywhere

Click to expand...

That’s the best thing I have seen all year.  Especially the double-tap sign-off which should become the equivalent of the masonic handshake for women.


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## Flicker (12 December 2021)

Pearlsacarolsinger said:



			I'm afraid that has left me feeling very disappointed.   Can I ask why you didn't make a complaint as you were leaving?  That might have helped those coming along behind you.
		
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You may not have meant it this way, but your comment comes across as ’why did you not behave in the acceptable way for a victim to behave?’ and that Red-1 is somehow part of the problem.

While reporting inappropriate behaviour in an organisation that you are leaving may be a ‘safe’ way to raise concerns in respect of that particular organisation, remember that individual organisations are part of wider industries.  Complaints are not received and dealt with in isolation, and anyone who thinks that organisations within certain industry sectors don’t communicate informally regarding who is saying or doing what is quite naive.  There is a reason people don’t whistleblow and it is mainly that once they do blow the whistle they become unemployable in their particular sector.


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## teapot (12 December 2021)

Rowreach said:



			I’ve been reading the comments on and off today and I find the attitudes of some to be utterly disheartening.

From my own actual experiences of bullying in the workplace (twice by the same person with a two year gap) and the work I now do supporting women in coaching going through the same thing, I know far more about the subject than I would like.

Serial bullies don’t pick on the weakest. That’s no fun, no challenge, and doesn’t get the laughs. They pick on the ones who are tough, often not particularly popular with their peers (therefore lacking immediate backup) - ring any bells? - and they wear them down. Their mates also think the target is tough and can take it, so they do nothing to stop it and when it gets too uncomfortable, it’s too late, so they act like it’s just a bit of banter and the way it’s always been. The MO usually includes being very nice to other colleagues so that they can’t imagine what the victim can possibly mean when they call out the behaviour. Hence the “I never experienced any bullying” comments from others.

What the inquiry found (for those of you who cba to read any of the reports yet still want to air your views) is that Dunne mounted a campaign of targeted bullying against Frost over a 7 month period.

So it’s not about kicking off in the heat of the moment, it’s not about “accidentally” dropping a towel in a changing room, it’s about a grown up man abusing and threatening an individual in the workplace with the intent to cause maximum distress (and to make himself feel like a big important person).

I find it incredibly sad that there are people (women) on here who have so little empathy or respect for someone who has had the strength and perseverance to call Dunne out, deal with all the vitriol, and still be doing her job, riding multiple winners, and not revelling in the vindication of the inquiry findings but just wanting to crack on and ride racehorses.
		
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This, with spades on.


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## Pearlsasinger (12 December 2021)

Flicker said:



			You may not have meant it this way, but your comment comes across as ’why did you not behave in the acceptable way for a victim to behave?’ and that Red-1 is somehow part of the problem.

While reporting inappropriate behaviour in an organisation that you are leaving may be a ‘safe’ way to raise concerns in respect of that particular organisation, remember that individual organisations are part of wider industries.  Complaints are not received and dealt with in isolation, and anyone who thinks that organisations within certain industry sectors don’t communicate informally regarding who is saying or doing what is quite naive.  There is a reason people don’t whistleblow and it is mainly that once they do blow the whistle they become unemployable in their particular sector.
		
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I'm not sure if yo are aware that Red-1 is a former police officer and then has worked briefly for the Fire Service.  I'm not sure which organisation she was bullied in, I wouldn't be surprised if it was both. And that she now works in education, where ime bullying is usually dealt with appropriately, so long as one is a member of a union.  I very much doubt that making a complaint about bullying ineither the police or frie services would result in a problem for a person subsequently employed in, or seeking employment in, a school.

I simply don't understand your opening sentence.  What do you  consider to be an acceptable way for a victim to behave?   I would hope that, if a victim of workplace bullying did not feel able to report it while working within the organisation, for fear of reprisals/effect on her career, she would at least feel able to bring the bullying to the attention of HR/appropriate managers as she left


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## splashgirl45 (12 December 2021)

Love what Kevin Blake said, he was so right that this should never have got this far if the weighing room officials had sorted it out ,


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## splashgirl45 (12 December 2021)

Pearlsacarolsinger said:



			I'm not sure if yo are aware that Red-1 is a former police officer and then has worked briefly for the Fire Service.  I'm not sure which organisation she was bullied in, I wouldn't be surprised if it was both. And that she now works in education, where ime bullying is usually dealt with appropriately, so long as one is a member of a union.  I very much doubt that making a complaint about bullying ineither the police or frie services would result in a problem for a person subsequently employed in, or seeking employment in, a school.

I simply don't understand your opening sentence.  What do you  consider to be an acceptable way for a victim to behave?   I would hope that, if a victim of workplace bullying did not feel able to report it while working within the organisation, for fear of reprisals/effect on her career, she would at least feel able to bring the bullying to the attention of HR/appropriate managers as she left
		
Click to expand...

it doesn’t matter if you are going for a job in a completely different organisation you still need a good reference so I completely understand why someone wouldn’t rock the boat.  I left the bank I worked for when I had a breakdown which was caused by how I was treated in comparison to males doing the same job amongst other things , females had to be better at their job than the men and even in 2000 we were still paid less. If I had reported what happened to me it would have made no difference to their behaviour but would have caused me more stress and 20 years later I still have bad dreams about things which happened…. Some of us seem strong on the outside but the inside is jelly..


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## Red-1 (12 December 2021)

Pearlsacarolsinger said:



			I'm afraid that has left me feeling very disappointed.   Can I ask why you didn't make a complaint as you were leaving?  That might have helped those coming along behind you.
		
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Flicker said:



			You may not have meant it this way, but your comment comes across as ’why did you not behave in the acceptable way for a victim to behave?’ and that Red-1 is somehow part of the problem.

While reporting inappropriate behaviour in an organisation that you are leaving may be a ‘safe’ way to raise concerns in respect of that particular organisation, remember that individual organisations are part of wider industries.  Complaints are not received and dealt with in isolation, and anyone who thinks that organisations within certain industry sectors don’t communicate informally regarding who is saying or doing what is quite naive.  There is a reason people don’t whistleblow and it is mainly that once they do blow the whistle they become unemployable in their particular sector.
		
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However it was meant, I did find it accusatory.

I didn't complain as I didn't leave that particular organisation until 23 years after my issues had ceased. The culture changed whilst I was there.

I didn't complain at the time as I wanted to have a career. I had a mortgage to pay. I was wise enough at that time to know where the power laid. The supervisors and manager were part of the sexual harassment.

I did help that change by backing up fellow colleagues, by standing up to the bullies, but reporting officially would have been counterproductive.

I have since left two other organisations due to the way I have been treated, and complained about both on the way out, in my exit interviews. Neither time was due to sexual harassment though, just inept management. I have little tolerance for inept management. Both times, I did sit down with the person who was my line manager, to outline the issues, and each time was informed that nothing would change. So, I left and raised a complaint with top management.

I would hardly say I was a pushover.

I hasten to add that for the past 7 years, I have worked in an absolutely delightful school where staff feel more like family. There is appropriate discipline, along with care.


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## Rowreach (12 December 2021)

splashgirl45 said:



			Love what Kevin Blake said, he was so right that this should never have got this far if the weighing room officials had sorted it out ,
		
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This generally applies to all things.  If they are dealt with appropriately at the time, there is no need for them to escalate.

I've known situations that were ignored at the outset and ended up in the High Court as a result.


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## Flicker (12 December 2021)

Pearlsacarolsinger said:



			I'm not sure if yo are aware that Red-1 is a former police officer and then has worked briefly for the Fire Service.  I'm not sure which organisation she was bullied in, I wouldn't be surprised if it was both. And that she now works in education, where ime bullying is usually dealt with appropriately, so long as one is a member of a union.  I very much doubt that making a complaint about bullying ineither the police or frie services would result in a problem for a person subsequently employed in, or seeking employment in, a school.

I simply don't understand your opening sentence.  What do you  consider to be an acceptable way for a victim to behave?   I would hope that, if a victim of workplace bullying did not feel able to report it while working within the organisation, for fear of reprisals/effect on her career, she would at least feel able to bring the bullying to the attention of HR/appropriate managers as she left
		
Click to expand...

The point of my opening sentence is that it read, to me, that you were suggesting that Red-1 did not respond to being bullied in a manner that you thought she should (ie by reporting it when she left the organisation).  My post was to explain that sometimes people do not report things because they fear being excluded from the entire industry in which they work.  

I too would hope that individuals are able to raise concerns when they leave an organisation, either with senior managers or HR.  I know, however, from experience that this is just not always possible due to fear of reprisals from the industry as a whole.  

It is not for Red-1 (or any victim of bullying for that matter) to have to justify or explain why they did, or did not, follow a particular course of action.  Each victim will respond in each circumstance in a way that they consider the best way to keep themselves safe.  Until you have been there, you can’t judge.

Red-1, in no way was my post meant to insinuate that you had done anything wrong, but to explain to Pearlsacarolsinger why in certain circumstances people sometimes choose to follow a certain path of action.


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## AdorableAlice (12 December 2021)

Frost v Dunne … The Awkward Truth. | by Nancy Von Short | Dec, 2021 | Medium 

For me, this sums the whole sorry saga correctly.


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## ozpoz (12 December 2021)

bonny said:



			There was six days of evidence, what do you think everybody else has missed?
		
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At the start of this thread people were responding to newspaper articles, not the court case result?


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## Parrotperson (12 December 2021)

AdorableAlice said:



Frost v Dunne … The Awkward Truth. | by Nancy Von Short | Dec, 2021 | Medium

For me, this sums the whole sorry saga correctly.
		
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It’s good until she writes 

‘But I just can’t. Because when I look at Robbie I see a victim too’

he’s not and never will be the victim here. To call him such is utter nonsense and entire wrong.


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## misst (12 December 2021)

AdorableAlice said:



Frost v Dunne … The Awkward Truth. | by Nancy Von Short | Dec, 2021 | Medium

For me, this sums the whole sorry saga correctly.
		
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That is a sobering read


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## AdorableAlice (12 December 2021)

Parrotperson said:



			It’s good until she writes

‘But I just can’t. Because when I look at Robbie I see a victim too’

he’s not and never will be the victim here. To call him such is utter nonsense and entire wrong.
		
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The writer says 'a victim' not the victim.  Two very different meanings and the writer in context means both are victims of the poor handling of the case.  The writer is not judging who is more in the wrong and indicates that Dunne is way out of order, which he certainly is.


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## DiNozzo (12 December 2021)

AdorableAlice said:



Frost v Dunne … The Awkward Truth. | by Nancy Von Short | Dec, 2021 | Medium

For me, this sums the whole sorry saga correctly.
		
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Really? Someone who refers to a penis waggling idiot as "Robbie" but a woman she'd apparently really like to support as "Frost"?


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## Rowreach (12 December 2021)

AdorableAlice said:



			The writer says 'a victim' not the victim.  Two very different meanings and the writer in context means both are victims of the poor handling of the case.  The writer is not judging who is more in the wrong and indicates that Dunne is way out of order, which he certainly is.
		
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She goes on to specifically say that he is a victim of his upbringing, and the blokes he associates with.

And then to say that BF will forever be known as the woman who ruined his career. 

He did that himself.


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## DiNozzo (12 December 2021)

And the nonsense about mens mental health at the end makes the entire piece utter rubbish.* 

What bearing does men's mental health have on the case? "Robbie" would have far better mental health had he not systemically bullied Frost. So would Frost for that matter!

*Of course men's mental health matters in far wider contexts than the specifics of this case and Dunne's punishment, but it has nothing at all to do with the matter hand and should therefore have been excluded instead of shoe-horned in.


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## Rowreach (12 December 2021)

I think it needs repeating that BF did not launch the inquiry or dole out the penalty.


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## AdorableAlice (12 December 2021)

DiNozzo said:



			Really? Someone who refers to a penis waggling idiot as "Robbie" but a woman she'd apparently really like to support as "Frost"?
		
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Yes really, the whole saga was handled so badly.  Both will be adversely affected in differing ways as will racing in general sadly.


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## splashgirl45 (12 December 2021)

AdorableAlice said:



Frost v Dunne … The Awkward Truth. | by Nancy Von Short | Dec, 2021 | Medium

For me, this sums the whole sorry saga correctly.
		
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i agree with a lot of the article but find the willy waggling excuse a bit lame.  BUT the female jockeys should have had a proper changing room with their own valets a long time ago and maybe things wouldnt have gone so far if they had.  i agree that the way they have settled this is not good for either of them and i feel the punishment will alienate the other jockeys even more and bryony will continue to have a lonely time.  its interesting that the other female jockeys didnt feel able to empathise with what she had to go through.  its no good saying it never happened to them.,  quite a few of them are going out with or married to jockeys so they would be unlikely to get the same abuse but surely they could understand how it might affect someone.  the whole thing is a mess..


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## honetpot (13 December 2021)

Well, perhaps PJA have realised it's not a good look.
Jockeys’ union chief accepts Bryony Frost was bullied by Robbie Dunne | Horse racing | The Guardian 
 In my profession if you go to your professional representative body for support, against another member, they each a separate support team in any action. I just think it shows how unprofessional they are, that they hadn't thought the whole process through.


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## MotherOfChickens (13 December 2021)

Surely a culture of 'what happens in the weighing room, stays in the weighing room' doesnt exactly make for transparency or for a culture of care of employees? I get what the author in the medium piece is getting at, but its 2021, waving your dick at people hasnt been acceptable for a while now..


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## Rowreach (13 December 2021)

MotherOfChickens said:



			Surely a culture of 'what happens in the weighing room, stays in the weighing room' doesnt exactly make for transparency or for a culture of care of employees? I get what the author in the medium piece is getting at, but its 2021, waving your dick at people hasnt been acceptable for a while now..
		
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That sort of culture simply perpetuates the problem and is basically telling everyone that they have to put up with it or leave.


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## ycbm (13 December 2021)

honetpot said:



			Well, perhaps PJA have realised it's not a good look.
Jockeys’ union chief accepts Bryony Frost was bullied by Robbie Dunne | Horse racing | The Guardian
In my profession if you go to your professional representative body for support, against another member, they each a separate support team in any action. I just think it shows how unprofessional they are, that they hadn't thought the whole process through.
		
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I think it also shows that this has happened so rarely that they don't know how to handle it.  And for me,  in a sport this big with such tensions running through it just by its very nature, that speaks volumes about how people probably just leave when there is no means of complaining and no support if they try.
.


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## Parrotperson (13 December 2021)

AdorableAlice said:



			The writer says 'a victim' not the victim.  Two very different meanings and the writer in context means both are victims of the poor handling of the case.  The writer is not judging who is more in the wrong and indicates that Dunne is way out of order, which he certainly is.
		
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he’s not a victim. In any way.


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## Goldenstar (13 December 2021)

He’s a victim of his own actions .
Many men will have grown up in the system exactly as he did and did not behave as he did .
He will have to accept his own behaviour was way over the line not just a mistake that most people make from time to time in their relationships with others to move on .
I hope he can and some of sort reconciliation process can be brokered between Bf and RD as that would make the workplace issues easier to manage going on .


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## Keep Trying (13 December 2021)

This has happened because Robbie Dunne is a bully. If his career is over then he has orchestrated his own demise. If he is so well liked in the Weighing Room, then why have his friends stood back and allowed him to rampage along his path of destruction? Maybe, in his competitive world, they are not really his friends after all?

The term ‘rancid’ has been taken out of context and seized upon by the jockeys, seemingly, in an attempt to deflect the attention away from the real problem. This response and the reported backlash from the jockey community, portrays an image of a group that has segregated itself from reality and is unwilling or unable to accept its failings. If this is their mindset then, for me, it reinforces the findings of the disciplinary panel as correct.

Yes, there has been failings by the BHA and issues raised should have been addressed as soon as practicable but there are also failings by the PJA. For any productive progression to occur, the PJA must learn to accept that their opinions are not always the best way forwards and demonstrate a willingness to meet their counterparts halfway.


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## NinjaPony (13 December 2021)

As ever, it appears that there is more outcry about the image of the sport rather than the actions that resulted in this tarnished image. If the offended parties were half as concerned about the real damage done to Frost as they are about the perceived slight to themselves, then the sport wouldn’t be in this position one feels. It’s incredibly dismissive to ignore the huge personal cost to Frost and others like her in order to write defensive statements that diminish the seriousness of what has happened. Tale as old as time unfortunately.


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## Fred66 (13 December 2021)

MotherOfChickens said:



			Surely a culture of 'what happens in the weighing room, stays in the weighing room' doesnt exactly make for transparency or for a culture of care of employees? I get what the author in the medium piece is getting at, but its 2021, waving your dick at people hasnt been acceptable for a while now..
		
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If women were expected to put up with men walking into their changing rooms where they are potentially naked then I think the outcry would have been heard sooner. Why are men not afforded this level of privacy ?


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## ycbm (13 December 2021)

Fred66 said:



			If women were expected to put up with men walking into their changing rooms where they are potentially naked then I think the outcry would have been heard sooner. Why are men not afforded this level of privacy ?
		
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Have the men complained?  I doubt it, because they are so much in a majority it would have been sorted if they had.

Are you another one questioning why women feel more threatened by naked men than men are by naked women?

It beggars belief,  some of the reaction on this thread,  from women. 
.


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## Renvers (13 December 2021)

Rowreach said:



			She goes on to specifically say that he is a victim of his upbringing, and the blokes he associates with.

And then to say that BF will forever be known as the woman who ruined his career.

He did that himself.
		
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Although she does go onto state a connection with Dunne through her partner and their mutual connection to Liam Treadwell which made me wonder how impartial she can really be on the subject or how much she is exposed to that culture in the people she associates with. 

In my career I have seen a number of women who have some form of Stockholm syndrome and are either apologists for toxic male behaviour (like someone earlier in this thread seemed to be) or antagonistic towards women who did the brave thing and challenged it. So sad and however much he is the "victim of circumstance" we can choose how we act and this man chose not to be mature, polite or act with integrity towards a colleague and got called out.


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## honetpot (13 December 2021)

Fred66 said:



			If women were expected to put up with men walking into their changing rooms where they are potentially naked then I think the outcry would have been heard sooner. Why are men not afforded this level of privacy ?
		
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 Do you not think for some men, not all,its a bit of a frisson, also an unspoken challenge, you are working in a male dominated sport, so you have to man up. There may also be an aspect of sledging going on. I admire her even more, you want to do the best every time you ride, and you start off at a disadvantage.
In my job I have seen a lot of men without their clouts on, young and old, and I can tell you with five seconds which ones there could be problems with.
  We are focusing on BF, but this could also have happened to a young lad, we have heard a lot of testimonies from young men how they have been pressured, particularly in football, and been unable to speak out, due to the culture. There should be processes in place that protect everyone from bullying.


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## MotherOfChickens (13 December 2021)

Fred66 said:



			If women were expected to put up with men walking into their changing rooms where they are potentially naked then *I think the outcry would have been heard sooner*. Why are men not afforded this level of privacy ?
		
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And why do you think that would be?


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## Fred66 (13 December 2021)

ycbm said:



			Have the men complained?  I doubt it, because they are so much in a majority it would have been sorted if they had.

Are you another one questioning why women feel more threatened by naked men than men are by naked women?

It beggars belief,  some of the reaction on this thread,  from women.
.
		
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I find the double standards on this thread slightly nauseating. On the one hand you want the culture brought forward to the 21st century and for the boys will be boys attitude to be consigned to the past to be inclusive to women and then on the other that’s the reason men aren’t offered the same level of protection. Do you not think that some men are just as self conscious and feel intimidated but due to outdated culture feel obliged to put on a brave front ?
Many men are totally confused by what is expected of them, what they were brought up to believe has changed, they are meant to treat everyone the same, but if they do then half the time that’s wrong too.
The article “the awkward truth” hits the nail on the head, an 18 month ban with 12 months of it suspended and anger management and diversity awareness training would have been a more appropriate remedy. The BHA and PJA should also have worked together to resolve the circumstances in which it was allowed to get this far.
The outcome will divide the racing world and whilst publically many will take the PC route of supporting Frost privately I think she could find herself even more isolated. They will be wary in their contact (there but for the grace of god ….. etc), she may have hoped that the closure of the case would draw a line but personally I doubt it.
From what I’ve heard whilst many think he was wrong and deserved some level of reprimand they also feel he has been scapegoated.


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## paisley (13 December 2021)

Men are confused? Really? Even given the current awareness of violence against women, men shouldn’t need an explanation of why verbal threats and deliberate exposing of their genitals against anyone (male or female) isn’t appropriate in any circumstance or emotional state.


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## honetpot (13 December 2021)

Fred66 said:



			Do you not think that some men are just as self conscious and feel intimidated but due to outdated culture feel obliged to put on a brave front ?
		
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 So that this means that it is all the more important that code of conduct, processes for questioning and if necessary, a complaints procedure be put in place, that anyone can use.
 The first thing I would be thinking about was some sort of anonymous feedback form to bring out issues that may be a problem.


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## Arzada (13 December 2021)

Fred66 said:



			If women were expected to put up with men walking into their changing rooms where they are potentially naked then I think the outcry would have been heard sooner. Why are men not afforded this level of privacy ?
		
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What did the men do about the invasion of their privacy?


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## Peglo (13 December 2021)

Just caught up with this thread. So many great comments of support for BF. Couldn’t like them all without being annoying.

I felt bullied at work but nowhere near as bad as BF. I was made to feel stupid, pathetic and targeted. I was 17 and the guy was much older, been there a long time and well liked. It wasn’t anything big but constant digs and trying to get people to laugh at me. Little things like picking up a tampon i’d dropped and wafting it around the room of men asking who’s it was. When I said ‘It’s obviously mine’ completely embarrassed but trying to be strong I got the ‘woah, calm down!’ look at the crazy girl reaction from him. Just little things like that. I was miserable. And no one stuck up for me, the same way all these jockeys, valet’s etc are saying they never seen any bullying or was ever bullied themselves. Doesn’t mean it didn’t happen.

I’ve almost always worked with the majority of the workforce being men and I get on well with them. I enjoy the actual banter when your part of the joke and give as good as I get but being the joke is completely different. Maybe it’s hard to distinguish unless you’ve been in the situation.

I’m not innocent either. I have lacked sympathy for someone I haven’t liked, much like elf. Fortunately my sister or friends will call me out on it and make me see the bigger picture. In this case the judge has spoken and regardless of what BF is like, Dunne has been found guilty so I find it pretty shocking people are making BF the ‘bad guy’ and Dunne a victim.

I admire Bryony Frost for sticking up for herself and hopefully her actions will encourage others to stick up for themselves and make bystanders wake up and speak out too.


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## Rowreach (13 December 2021)

Fred66 said:



			I find the double standards on this thread slightly nauseating. On the one hand you want the culture brought forward to the 21st century and for the boys will be boys attitude to be consigned to the past to be inclusive to women and then on the other that’s the reason men aren’t offered the same level of protection. Do you not think that some men are just as self conscious and feel intimidated but due to outdated culture feel obliged to put on a brave front ?
Many men are totally confused by what is expected of them, what they were brought up to believe has changed, they are meant to treat everyone the same, but if they do then half the time that’s wrong too.
The article “the awkward truth” hits the nail on the head, an 18 month ban with 12 months of it suspended and anger management and diversity awareness training would have been a more appropriate remedy. The BHA and PJA should also have worked together to resolve the circumstances in which it was allowed to get this far.
The outcome will divide the racing world and whilst publically many will take the PC route of supporting Frost privately I think she could find herself even more isolated. They will be wary in their contact (there but for the grace of god ….. etc), she may have hoped that the closure of the case would draw a line but personally I doubt it.
From what I’ve heard whilst many think he was wrong and deserved some level of reprimand they also feel he has been scapegoated.
		
Click to expand...

You are forgetting that Dunne was safely covered up with his towel before choosing to drop it and wave his bits at Bryony.  If he was that concerned with his own modesty he'd have kept his boxers on and his towel up.

As for being "scapegoated", did you read what the inquiry found, not only about his previous behaviour but his behaviour in front of the panel?  Maybe if he'd shown more respect for the system and an iota of remorse they would have given him a choice of penalty.  He got what he deserved.  And the whole definition of "making an example" of someone isn't about giving them an overly harsh punishment, it's about giving them a suitable punishment for the offence committed with the aim of showing anyone else who maybe heading down that road a bit of a wake up call.


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## Renvers (13 December 2021)

Rowreach said:



			You are forgetting that Dunne was safely covered up with his towel before choosing to drop it and wave his bits at Bryony.  If he was that concerned with his own modesty he'd have kept his boxers on and his towel up.
		
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I don't want to dismiss this very serious and important discussion or the impact it had on Frost to be in this situation. But all I can imagine is pointing, laughing and asking if he is feeling the cold...


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## bonny (13 December 2021)

Renvers said:



			I don't want to dismiss this very serious and important discussion or the impact it had on Frost to be in this situation. But all I can imagine is pointing, laughing and asking if he is feeling the cold...
		
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You are dismissing it though


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## stangs (13 December 2021)

Renvers said:



			I don't want to dismiss this very serious and important discussion or the impact it had on Frost to be in this situation. But all I can imagine is pointing, laughing and asking if he is feeling the cold...
		
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Sometimes, just sometimes, people aren't capable of coming up with witty responses when being sexually harassed. 

I've had my fair share of threatening catcalls, drunk men stopping me from walking past, getting grinded on on the train. My initial response every time is to freeze and go on high alert. You'd think that I'd be used to it enough to come up with a sarcastic comment or something, but the response remains the same. I presume BF felt the same. And, arguably, making a humorous comment could put her in an even worse position.


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## Mule (13 December 2021)

alibali said:



			As a little bit of light hearted relief I did get a giggle when I saw the photo of Dunne and his lawyer en route to the hearing both decked out in pink. Presumably to give the impression of being in touch with their feminine sides or show solidarity with their female colleagues who of course all love pink..... The lengths lawyers will go to to try to influence proceedings in a subliminal manner does make me chuckle. I very much doubt the QC was been taken in at all.

As for Dunne being made an example of. Having worked in a very patriarchal environment which has gradually reformed over the last 20 years it's unfortunate but the culture did not change by generalised directives to all employees it was only by the disciplining of the worst offender's that others were forced to examine their own actions and attitudes.
		
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I thought the same about his pink clothes 🤣


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## SO1 (13 December 2021)

This should never have been deemed ok. 

Not all men would feel comfortable with women seeing them naked and women may feel uncomfortable seeing men naked. Would there ever be a scenario in any other work place where it would be impossible to do your job without the  risk of one of your colleagues of the opposite sex seeing you naked or seeing another colleague naked.



minesadouble said:



			I made a pretty straightforward statement about men being expected to accept the oppsite sex in a changing area whilst the same would never be expected of women. 
Do we want equality or do we want special treatment when it suits us?
		
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## splashgirl45 (14 December 2021)

That is the fault of the people running the racing. Facilities should be made available to each sex with access to valets for both without having to go into each other’s changing rooms.  Once female jockeys started competing they should have provided this., there is enough money in racing so no excuse IMO


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## Red-1 (14 December 2021)

splashgirl45 said:



			That is the fault of the people running the racing. Facilities should be made available to each sex with access to valets for both without having to go into each other’s changing rooms.  Once female jockeys started competing they should have provided this., there is enough money in racing so no excuse IMO
		
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These days, that wouldn't be enough either. There should be a move towards cubicles, so changing areas can accommodate people of all gender identities. It is the way of current thinking. Inclusive to everyone. Everyone has privacy.


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## paddi22 (14 December 2021)

Renvers said:



			I don't want to dismiss this very serious and important discussion or the impact it had on Frost to be in this situation. But all I can imagine is pointing, laughing and asking if he is feeling the cold...
		
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you are totally dismissing it though. now not only are you expecting a woman to accept and enable abuse, you are also expecting her to turn into an ad- lib witty comedian... I honestly have no words... and do you really think a man who called her a 'f*cking slut' in front of people is just going to  back down and say 'oh what a sassy remark, that put me in my place and I won't do that again'?   I wasn't aware womens humour could put a stop to mens bad behaviour.

I think women's automatic reaction is the blame the victim because if the victim acted incorrectly, then it wouldn't happen to you, because you know the right way to act and you'd be 'safe', you can kid yourself it wouldn't happen to you and you are OK.

But I can tell you exactly what would happen if she'd reacted like you suggested. The behaviour would naturally have escalated (because why not, no one pulled him up) and when it went to a tribunal later on everyone would have defended him by saying 'sure, she thought it was funny? we were all laughing and joking about it at the time'. and then she wouldn\'t have had a leg to stand on.

the reaction to a man abusing you isn't to have to come up instantly with a suitable cutting remark, despite your shock, embarrassment and stress. the solution is to have a culture when you know ANYONE can be pulled up for bad behaviour and the system supports you.


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## Steerpike (14 December 2021)

Bryony has spoken out
https://www.racingtv.com/news/bryon...5u16cXv-CQXba3x0-x9_zwc1YAKfRQq0g9_yzD-nlEqEg


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## splashgirl45 (14 December 2021)

that sounds more positive for her, at least some in the weighing room are reaching out to her..


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## Pearlsasinger (14 December 2021)

Good for her!  What a pity it has taken until  2021 for the change in attitude  to happen.


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## ycbm (14 December 2021)

I’ve already been made to feel I am part of the weighing room, they do want me to sit down and have a cup of tea with them. I haven’t felt like that for some time.
		
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That is great to read.  
.


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## Arzada (14 December 2021)

Steerpike said:



			Bryony has spoken out
https://www.racingtv.com/news/bryon...5u16cXv-CQXba3x0-x9_zwc1YAKfRQq0g9_yzD-nlEqEg

Click to expand...

Great to read. Maybe recognition of how badly she was treated, how brave she has been and what a torrid time she has had. And more good news for her, winning November 2021 Ride of the Month https://www.attheraces.com/rideofthemonth


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## Goldenstar (14 December 2021)

Steerpike said:



			Bryony has spoken out
https://www.racingtv.com/news/bryon...5u16cXv-CQXba3x0-x9_zwc1YAKfRQq0g9_yzD-nlEqEg

Click to expand...

Good to read that .



Arzada said:



			Great to read. Maybe recognition of how badly she was treated, how brave she has been and what a torrid time she has had. And more good news for her, winning November 2021 Ride of the Month https://www.attheraces.com/rideofthemonth

Click to expand...

This is what we should be knowing BF for that was a super ride .
She’s not the the victim of a bully she is a great jockey succeeding in a very tough job .


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## Andie02 (14 December 2021)

ycbm said:



			That is great to read. 
.
		
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Isn't it just, great to read. Some jockeys seeing sense at last.


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## Bob notacob (15 December 2021)

I had a wonderful evening last night a severely controlled  party,sitting next to a lady flat jock from the 70,s No names no pack drill. She explained that in her day ,she had to change in the st johns ambulance area . Couldnt speak more wonderful about her valet (former jockey ,rode foinavon in the national(go figure) . I got the vibe that she considered him a real man . Did her proud as a valet. She also explained that round the back of the course (pre cameras) she would endure a whip attack from some die hard misogynist jockeys ,which she cheerfully responded with some slashing cuts of her own. Her comment as I understand was . Two jockeys have now had their careers stuffed ,the real culprits remain the old guard of the jockey club. As I say , stright from the horses ,jockeys mouth. .


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## MotherOfChickens (15 December 2021)

I’m curious, what is a real man?


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## Clodagh (15 December 2021)

MotherOfChickens said:



			I’m curious, what is a real man?
		
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🤣🤣🤣


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## Red-1 (15 December 2021)

MotherOfChickens said:



			I’m curious, what is a real man?
		
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I'm not even sure you are allowed to ask that question.

Was a joke, but actually the gender of someone is now a private matter, if that is what is wanted, and never to be presumed. Hence suggesting cubicles.


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## rabatsa (15 December 2021)

Perhaps she meant Gentleman?


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## Parrotperson (15 December 2021)

MotherOfChickens said:



			I’m curious, what is a real man?
		
Click to expand...

mysoginistic old school jockey according to that post. 🙄


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## Rowreach (15 December 2021)

Ah, the days when ladies were only allowed to ride in the occasional ladies's race. I doubt any of them demanded too much time from the valets as there weren't too many races to be had. The first lady champion jockey only had a handful of rides (and even fewer wins) because of that.


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## Mrs. Jingle (15 December 2021)

rabatsa said:



			Perhaps she meant Gentleman?
		
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That's actually very funny rabasta... Just not actually sure it was meant to be!🤔😂😂


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## Goldenstar (15 December 2021)

Bob notacob said:



			I had a wonderful evening last night a severely controlled  party,sitting next to a lady flat jock from the 70,s No names no pack drill. She explained that in her day ,she had to change in the st johns ambulance area . Couldnt speak more wonderful about her valet (former jockey ,rode foinavon in the national(go figure) . I got the vibe that she considered him a real man . Did her proud as a valet. She also explained that round the back of the course (pre cameras) she would endure a whip attack from some die hard misogynist jockeys ,which she cheerfully responded with some slashing cuts of her own. Her comment as I understand was . Two jockeys have now had their careers stuffed ,the real culprits remain the old guard of the jockey club. As I say , stright from the horses ,jockeys mouth. .
		
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The culprit was the person,  man ,real man or any other way the person chooses to identify who did the bullying .


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## Clodagh (15 December 2021)

So what was said by Matt Chapman on ATR today? I see much outrage on FB so I expect he was being his usual endearing self but did anyone see it?


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## MotherOfChickens (15 December 2021)

Red-1 said:



			I'm not even sure you are allowed to ask that question.

Was a joke, but actually the gender of someone is now a private matter, if that is what is wanted, and never to be presumed. Hence suggesting cubicles.
		
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I was going to make a joke about Pinnocchio but expect its not funny.


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## Andie02 (15 December 2021)

I do not think that Bryony has had her career stuffed..........2 Grade 1's recently while she was under a lot of pressure with the situation.
Some jockeys have already been sociable towards her, give it time.

The real culprit is the ignorant vile bully.


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## Mrs. Jingle (15 December 2021)

Bob notacob said:



			wo jockeys have now had their careers stuffed ,the real culprits remain the old guard of the jockey club. As I say , stright from the horses ,jockeys mouth. .
		
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I hardly think Bryony's career is stuffed -far from it - she is an exceedingly talented young jockey in her own right and she kept her head down and kept riding winners while the 'in' crowd were busy ripping her reputation to shreds.  Lets not forget either, this was also whilst those eminently qualified to make decisions at the hearing got on with their job of sorting the wheat from the chaff of fact, innuendo, rumour and down right vicious lies.

Also lets not forget either, we did get some extremely ferocious 'insider' information thrown into the pot on this forum, if not straight from the horses or jockey's mouth, the most vile and childish part of it did come from a self professed 'right in the middle of it, I know all the facts you don't know' expert!


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## j1ffy (15 December 2021)

Bob notacob said:



			I had a wonderful evening last night a severely controlled  party,sitting next to a lady flat jock from the 70,s No names no pack drill. She explained that in her day ,she had to change in the st johns ambulance area . Couldnt speak more wonderful about her valet (former jockey ,rode foinavon in the national(go figure) . I got the vibe that she considered him a real man . Did her proud as a valet. She also explained that round the back of the course (pre cameras) she would endure a whip attack from some die hard misogynist jockeys ,which she cheerfully responded with some slashing cuts of her own. Her comment as I understand was . Two jockeys have now had their careers stuffed ,the real culprits remain the old guard of the jockey club. As I say , stright from the horses ,jockeys mouth. .
		
Click to expand...

I'm not sure that the experience of one woman who rode in races 50 years ago is relevant to the current scenario! How awful that she had to endure physical abuse to be able to ride - she's clearly very resilient and tough to have continued anyway, but the ability to withstand a beating shouldn't be part of the qualification to be a jockey. Nor should enduring misogynistic 'banter', constant jibes or willy-waggling.

Dunne is in his mid-30s, not from the dark ages. He's a few years younger than me and I can guarantee that no-one (of any gender) I work with would consider his behaviour to be acceptable. I'm pleased this has been brought into the daylight and hope it can ensure future generations of jockeys succeed because of their talent on a horse, not their resilience when handling human relationships.


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## Parrotperson (16 December 2021)

Clodagh said:



			So what was said by Matt Chapman on ATR today? I see much outrage on FB so I expect he was being his usual endearing self but did anyone see it?
		
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 Basically he said he’d heard that bryony had sacked the valets previously and employed her own valet.
Then when her own valet didn’t turn up the other valets were asked to work fir her and refused.
But lots of jockeys change charts for various reasons so dye hardly sacked them. She just employed someone else. 🤷‍♀️


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## Velcrobum (9 January 2022)

https://www.racingpost.com/news/lat...-month-ban-as-written-reasons-released/530694

Scary reading.


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## bonny (9 January 2022)

Velcrobum said:



https://www.racingpost.com/news/lat...-month-ban-as-written-reasons-released/530694

Scary reading.
		
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I don’t think anyone could read that and be in any doubt about the verdict.


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## Quigleyandme (9 January 2022)

Chilling. As for that poor jockey left paralysed due to another jockey’s dangerous riding - very sad.


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## Mrs. Jingle (9 January 2022)

Velcrobum said:



https://www.racingpost.com/news/lat...-month-ban-as-written-reasons-released/530694

Scary reading.
		
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I was reading this yesterday - it does enlighten some of the doubters who thought he was dealt with too harshly, not harshly enough reading that.


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## Petalpoos (9 January 2022)

Very interesting reading. Let's hope that the right people take note of it and that attitudes change. It sounds like it was only luck that stopped a serious incident occurring due to the aggressive riding.


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## Rowreach (9 January 2022)

So in summary, even allowing for the weighing room “culture” and non-intervention by his peers being taken in mitigation by the panel, his actions were so appalling he got an 18 (15) month ban.


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## ycbm (9 January 2022)

Rowreach said:



			So in summary, even allowing for the weighing room “culture” and non-intervention by his peers being taken in mitigation by the panel, his actions were so appalling he got an 18 (15) month ban.
		
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But RR you've forgotten that she deserved it because she does post race interviews like giddy schoolgirl talking about her pony.  🙄🙄🙄
.


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## ycbm (9 January 2022)

Coming back to this,  it really sheds light on how frightening his threat to put her through a wing must have been.  I am more and more incredulous that anyone,  especially women,  on this thread defended him.  
.


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## AFishOutOfWater (10 January 2022)

ycbm said:



			But RR you've forgotten that she deserved it because she does post race interviews like giddy schoolgirl talking about her pony.  🙄🙄🙄
.
		
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I don't understand why people criticise her for this....I've always been taught "if you don't think your {horse/dog/cat/chinchilla/insert as appropriate} is the best ever, you shouldn't have anything to do with them'.
Aren't we ALL giddy schoolgirls with ponies at heart? I know I am, when I have to resist the urge to shriek gleefully "PONYPONYPONY!" anytime I drive past a field of horses .... if that enthusiasm and love for the animals is criticised and put down endlessly then I think there is little hope for the industry considering it's based off them, really!


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## teapot (10 January 2022)

Snail said:



			I don't understand why people criticise her for this....I've always been taught "if you don't think your {horse/dog/cat/chinchilla/insert as appropriate} is the best ever, you shouldn't have anything to do with them'.
Aren't we ALL giddy schoolgirls with ponies at heart? I know I am, when I have to resist the urge to shriek gleefully "PONYPONYPONY!" anytime I drive past a field of horses .... if that enthusiasm and love for the animals is criticised and put down endlessly then I think there is little hope for the industry considering it's based off them, really!
		
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Apparently showing that you care isn't the done thing for the public face of racing


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## AFishOutOfWater (11 January 2022)

teapot said:



			Apparently showing that you care isn't the done thing for the public face of racing 

Click to expand...

 whilst I have no comment on the frost/dunne situation whilst it is ongoing, it is a sorry state of affairs indeed then if it's frowned upon to show compassion for the animals that pay your way in the world, and that is enough to bring a rider in any discipline into reproach. (....One is left wondering if that is the real reason.)


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## Cragrat (11 January 2022)

Snail said:



 whilst I have no comment on the frost/dunne situation whilst it is ongoing, it is a sorry state of affairs indeed then if it's frowned upon to show compassion for the animals that pay your way in the world, and that is enough to bring a rider in any discipline into reproach. (....One is left wondering if that is the real reason.)
		
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I  bought my ex racer direct from the trainer a few years ago.  He was being sold because he was consistently useless.  However, the trainer said everyone loved him, the jockeys loved to ride him, even though they knew they'd never win, his owner loved him, and that was the only reason they had tried an extra season with him - he was so loved by everyone. 

I  worked in in NH racing many years ago - and yes things may have changed - but back then most people ( as in any walk of life, there are exceptions)  loved the horses they worked with and rode - from 'lads', work riders, to jockeys of all levels.


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## neddy man (20 January 2022)

Robbie Dunne  has today appealed against his 18 month ban


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## Parrotperson (20 January 2022)

can't read the room can he 🙄


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## Mrs. Jingle (21 January 2022)

Parrotperson said:



			can't read the room can he 🙄
		
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Perfect response, I had to sit on my hands for fear of letting my keyboard rattle off a rather more colourful comment!🙊😉


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## LEC (21 January 2022)

Parrotperson said:



			can't read the room can he 🙄
		
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Well he thinks he has been hard done by and ultimately he loses a huge amount of income, so you would!


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## Ratface (21 January 2022)

As my dear departed mother used to say "Where it ain't, you can't find it . . .".


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## teapot (21 January 2022)

https://www.racingpost.com/news/lat...l-team-for-appeal-against-18-month-ban/533285


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## Mrs. Jingle (21 January 2022)

*"Robbie has maintained a dignified silence throughout and he will continue to do so."*

*😂🤣 * I doubt the appellant even knows what dignified means let alone how to adhere to it!


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## Quigleyandme (21 January 2022)

Don’t banned jockeys go to Hong Kong or Dubai or somewhere far away to ride?


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## bonny (21 January 2022)

Quigleyandme said:



			Don’t banned jockeys go to Hong Kong or Dubai or somewhere far away to ride?
		
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He’s a jump jockey so no.


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## ycbm (21 January 2022)

Mrs Jingle said:



*"Robbie has maintained a dignified silence throughout and he will continue to do so."*

Click to expand...

Well he's going to look a right idiot if  he doesn't keep his mouth shut (and blow any chance of reducing that ban) ,  isn't he,  because he really doesn't think he has done anything wrong.  

The only acceptable thing for him to say is "I'm sorry" and I don't see that happening any time soon.  
.


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## Velcrobum (22 January 2022)

ycbm said:



			Well he's going to look a right idiot if  he doesn't keep his mouth shut (and blow any chance of reducing that ban) ,  isn't he,  because he really doesn't think he has done anything wrong. 

The only acceptable thing for him to say is "I'm sorry" and I don't see that happening any time soon. 
.
		
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Very sadly not, his apparent arrogance and character attack on Bryony Frost during the hearing seriously went against him in the original inquiry!! John Francome was very blunt in his recent interview with Racing Post that this situation should never have arisen if the "weighing room culture" of more senior jockeys to Dunne had stepped in. Dunne was not very successful in Eire as a jockey so came to UK and realistically at best has been a journeyman who claimed "seniority" due to his age not results. JF then went on to praise the riding skills over fences of Rachel Blackmore and Bryony Frost then lambasted the skills of the flat pony racing source of jump jockeys which I am sure probably has put a few hackles up.

The PJA leadership needs to have a really good look at itself as it spectacularly failed with supporting one party ie took sides according to information currently in the public domain. Seriously out of order for a Professional institution IMHO. It is good that the CEO at that period of time has been forced to resign, hopefully the new CEO will do better!


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## Flying_Form (10 February 2022)

.


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## Clodagh (13 February 2022)

Quigleyandme said:



			Don’t banned jockeys go to Hong Kong or Dubai or somewhere far away to ride?[/QUOTE
 I think bans are worldwide.
		
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## Velcrobum (15 February 2022)

He seems to be throwing a lot of money at the appeal
https://www.racingpost.com/news/lat...nth-suspension-to-be-heard-on-march-30/538074


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## neddy man (15 February 2022)

Must be using his £6,430 go fund me money.


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## Velcrobum (15 February 2022)

neddy man said:



			Must be using his £6,430 go fund me money.
		
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That will not last long engaging a QC


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## honetpot (15 February 2022)

I think they were very aware that he could have caused real injury to her and the horses they were riding, so on that count alone he should be not working until retrained. All those that backed him should be ashamed.


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## ycbm (16 February 2022)

Velcrobum said:



			He seems to be throwing a lot of money at the appeal
https://www.racingpost.com/news/lat...nth-suspension-to-be-heard-on-march-30/538074

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Oh what a lovely guy he is!   He is appealing the verdict as well as the ban. I don't know why the headlines aren't making that clear.   If this was in an ordinary court,  this effectively means the "trial"  is going to be run again and he is going to put Bryony through it all over again.  

I might have to eat my words if the new tribunal panel find him not guilty,  but right now,  the man's a nasty guilty shite. 
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## neddy man (29 March 2022)

Robbie Dunne has his appeal case start  tomorrow,( 30 March ). I hope he looses again, if he looses could the sentence be altered or would it stay the same?


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## mypegasus (30 March 2022)

Was just thinking about this.

I think from my understanding that they can alter the punishment either way, but I would think that they have to have justifiable reasons for doing so if they lengthen it.

Will be interested to see the outcome.


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## ycbm (30 March 2022)

neddy man said:



			Robbie Dunne has his appeal case start  tomorrow,( 30 March ). I hope he looses again, if he looses could the sentence be altered or would it stay the same?
		
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It's a civil action not a criminal one, I'm not sure but I think they can do what they like.  
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## Mrs. Jingle (30 March 2022)

ycbm said:



			It's a civil action not a criminal one, I'm not sure but I think they can do what they like. 
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I have a horrible feeling that they will do exactly as they like and my bullsh**e antenna is on high alert. I do hope very sincerely I will be proved wrong.


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## ycbm (30 March 2022)

The problem is that since he is appealing against the guilty verdict, not just the sentence,  he gets a chance to rerun things without the obnoxious attitude he displayed in the first hearing.  And unfortunately it was that attitude which pretty much proved that what she said was going on was true.  If he comes over all humble this time and says it was just part off normal joshing in the weighing in room but he's sorry it was taken the wrong way but he understands why that happened and accepts he behaved less than well,  he might overturn the verdict. 

I'm not hopeful.
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## Parrotperson (30 March 2022)

his defence sounds ludicrous if reports are anything to go by. He should've just accepted the ban and moved on


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## Old school (30 March 2022)

It is incredible that he was advised to appeal. The transcripts are available and are going to do a huge amount of damage to racing in the eyes of Joe Public. I would have thought that someone higher up would have had the wit to manage this more effectively. Yes he is entitled to appeal,  but my God the damage he is doing to himself and the sport beggars belief. A very very toxic environment.


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## Clodagh (30 March 2022)

I can’t share the link but Racing Post online have a brief exchange between the two barristers about acceptable language.
I almost agree with Dunne’s man who says nowadays calling a woman a ‘who’re’ is as unacceptable as calling a man a c…
Both are unacceptable in the workplace (or anywhere) and I would prefer that be the case rather than you can call a man one thing and a woman not. Swearing is swearing.


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## Old school (30 March 2022)

He has had his suspension/sentence reduced.....to 10 months


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## neddy man (30 March 2022)

Old school said:



			He has had his suspension/sentence reduced.....to 10 months
		
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Hope the likes are for the update and not the sentence being reduced, it's a shame he won the appeal and will be back racing in October


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## Rowreach (30 March 2022)

My god, some of the comments on FB suggesting that BF should be "put down" and calling her all sorts of names.  There are some delightful people in racing   Another own goal for the sport I'd say,  nobody will come forward again if they are being bullied and put themselves through this sort of sh1t.


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## Clodagh (30 March 2022)

Rowreach said:



			My god, some of the comments on FB suggesting that BF should be "put down" and calling her all sorts of names.  There are some delightful people in racing   Another own goal for the sport I'd say,  nobody will come forward again if they are being bullied and put themselves through this sort of sh1t.
		
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Racing has exposed itself as having an awful lot of problems. Mainly it still thinks it’s 1950 I think.


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## YorksG (30 March 2022)

Rowreach said:



			My god, some of the comments on FB suggesting that BF should be "put down" and calling her all sorts of names.  There are some delightful people in racing   Another own goal for the sport I'd say,  nobody will come forward again if they are being bullied and put themselves through this sort of sh1t.
		
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Which will be an outcome that some will be more than happy with!


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## Clodagh (30 March 2022)

I’m not sure if it’s because she doesn’t have a penis or just anyone that ever spoke out against bullying would get the same treatment?


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## ycbm (30 March 2022)

neddy man said:



			Hope the likes are for the update and not the sentence being reduced, it's a shame he won the appeal and will be back racing in October
		
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I think I'm just grateful he didn't win the appeal against the verdict,  just the appeal against the sentence.  It could have been worse.
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## Mrs. Jingle (30 March 2022)

Clodagh said:



			I’m not sure if it’s because she doesn’t have a penis or just anyone that ever spoke out against bullying would get the same treatment?
		
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My best bet would be on the lack of penis being the issue here.


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## ycbm (30 March 2022)

It's clear from the only input we've had from someone in racing up thread that her "girliness" was something that really irritated racing people.
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## Steerpike (30 March 2022)

Terrible decision by the BHA it shows how backwards they are, I hope owners and trainers refuse to allow him to ride their horses.


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## Ratface (30 March 2022)

Nasty little image, isn't he.  
I'm in two minds about racing:  it's obvious how much stable staff, work riders and other connections love their horses. On the other hand, the stressors of long journeys,  strange stables, noise and stress of the actual race must be mentally and physically exhausting.


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## Andie02 (30 March 2022)

There is a couple of interesting posts on At the Races fb on the subject made by someone who has known Bryony's family for a very long time and knows first hand what has happened. Apparently violent conduct was shushed up/set aside because they didn't want the police involved.


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## TPO (30 March 2022)

Ratface said:



			it's obvious how much stable staff, work riders and other connections love their horses
		
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I'm on the fence about that. I'm sure that there are many who do but there seems to be a lot who don't have that connection or care. 

In Elfs latest Life of  work Rider post she writes about a Lad in temper who took it out on the horse "socked his horse in the gob with one rein ", then "the lad jabbed his horse in the mouth again" and caused an incident with another horse (that elf was riding). So not only did that Lad mistreat the horse he felt comfortable doing it in front of others. That makes me feel really uneasy and definitely questioning that all staff care about the horses on their yards. To some it seems its just a job and thr horses are purely a commodity. 

It's bad enough being on a livery where people are rough and/or cruel with horses never mind having to work in that kind of environment (or be a horse!). 

I do wonder if racing will ever fold completely? There is so much money in it but people are slowly waking up to the ethics of where some of that money comes from, never mind how some animals are kept and trained as well as the ethics of breaking and racing them so young.


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## Rowreach (30 March 2022)

For the first time ever I reported a comment on Facebook (At the Races post) and it’s been removed thank goodness.


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## Ratface (30 March 2022)

Rowreach said:



			For the first time ever I reported a comment on Facebook (At the Races post) and it’s been removed thank goodness.
		
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Well done, Rowrah.  Thank you.


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## Ratface (30 March 2022)

Rowreach, even!  Fat fingertips are to blame.


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## neddy man (30 March 2022)

Rowreach said:



			For the first time ever I reported a comment on Facebook (At the Races post) and it’s been removed thank goodness.
		
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I have just read the Facebook  " at the races page" there are more that should be removed, some idiots on that page, but some support for Bryony as well


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## Old school (30 March 2022)

The fact the suspension was reduced infers that the folks at the top are completely out of touch. It will be the death of the sport as they strangle it from moving with the times. 

Racing is rotten to the core. A few teary eyed staff and some emotional music as a winner is lead in is intended to fob off Joe Public about the desperate cruelty of the sport by confusing their emotions. I know, for years I was one of them that fell for it.


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## Clodagh (31 March 2022)

Andie02 said:



			There is a couple of interesting posts on At the Races fb on the subject made by someone who has known Bryony's family for a very long time and knows first hand what has happened. Apparently violent conduct was shushed up/set aside because they didn't want the police involved.
		
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I heard that went both ways.
Racing wonders why it has trouble recruiting and keeping staff and why there are so many MH issues with jockeys yet seems unable to see that it might actually be the problem. 
I love racing but am disgusted by its old boys run the show attitude.


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## Clodagh (31 March 2022)

TPO said:



			. 

In Elfs latest Life of  work Rider post she writes about a Lad in temper who took it out on the horse "socked his horse in the gob with one rein ", then "the lad jabbed his horse in the mouth again" and caused an incident with another horse (that elf was riding). So not only did that Lad mistreat the horse he felt comfortable doing it in front of others. That makes me feel really uneasy and definitely questioning that all staff care about the horses on their yards. To some it seems its just a job and thr horses are purely a commodity.
		
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I like ELF and do not want this to become another ELF bashing thread (not saying you were) but that incident sad badly with me too. He obviously knew there would be no ramifications for taking his temper out on the horse. Very bad attitude indeed.


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## Goldenstar (31 March 2022)

There sure are some interesting people in racing .


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## paddi22 (31 March 2022)

ycbm said:



			It's clear from the only input we've had from someone in racing up thread that her "girliness" was something that really irritated racing people.
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I remember being horrified by that, and it was a good indication of the amount of peer pressure and conforming that must be rife in the industry.  And at the time there was a general talk of 'well we haven't heard the other side..' as the only defense of it. it's awful that when we did 'hear the other side' it was actually worse than expected.

it must be awful to be in an industry where you are expected to downplay feminine aspects of your personality purely to fit in.


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## Rowreach (31 March 2022)

In my other sport, we are undertaking a review of club culture, with an emphasis on the treatment of women (athletes and coaches). Talking to other coaches from grassroots to high performance, alongside the problem of misogynistic men, the worst treatment many have experienced has come from other women. Certainly that tallies with my own experience, and it's so sad when it happens.


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## Clodagh (31 March 2022)

In an ideal world (ha!) gender should be irrelevant. Assholes are assholes. On fb I was annoyed by people saying that Dunne should not have spoken to a woman like that. No one should speak to anyone like that.


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## TPO (31 March 2022)

Clodagh said:



			I like ELF and do not want this to become another ELF bashing thread (not saying you were) but that incident sad badly with me too. He obviously knew there would be no ramifications for taking his temper out on the horse. Very bad attitude indeed.
		
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Definitely wasn't bashing Elf just using her "inside info" and what she shared as evidence of what appears to prevelant in the industry as it was so normalised. Quoted so as not to take out of context.


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## ihatework (31 March 2022)

Ratface said:



			Nasty little image, isn't he.  
I'm in two minds about racing:  it's obvious how much stable staff, work riders and other connections love their horses. On the other hand, the stressors of long journeys,  strange stables, noise and stress of the actual race must be mentally and physically exhausting.
		
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See I’m not sure they all do!
They say they do, but when push comes to shove there are a lot of actions that speak otherwise. Not everyone of course, but it’s not a minority.

I’m not sure what the cause of it is?
Probably a mix of the culture/normalisation of mild abusive ways combined with a tough job physically and mentally that means at times individuals behave in ways they might not really want to.

It needs looking at holistically and not in a blame-culture way, because that only gets backs up.

Plus this isn’t isolated to racing, it’s seen in all equine spheres. Unfortunately for racing due to the financial side of things it’s probably more in the spotlight


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## milliepops (31 March 2022)

Being surrounded by racing yards where i am, has not done much to improve my opinion of the behind the scenes side of racing either


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## minesadouble (31 March 2022)

TPO said:



			I'm on the fence about that. I'm sure that there are many who do but there seems to be a lot who don't have that connection or care.

In Elfs latest Life of  work Rider post she writes about a Lad in temper who took it out on the horse "socked his horse in the gob with one rein ", then "the lad jabbed his horse in the mouth again" and caused an incident with another horse (that elf was riding). So not only did that Lad mistreat the horse he felt comfortable doing it in front of others. That makes me feel really uneasy and definitely questioning that all staff care about the horses on their yards. To some it seems its just a job and thr horses are purely a commodity.

It's bad enough being on a livery where people are rough and/or cruel with horses never mind having to work in that kind of environment (or be a horse!).

I do wonder if racing will ever fold completely? There is so much money in it but people are slowly waking up to the ethics of where some of that money comes from, never mind how some animals are kept and trained as well as the ethics of breaking and racing them so young.
		
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Socking horses in the mouth is certainly not confined to racing. I saw a showjumper, high profile, a real 'people's favourite' give his horse two real jawbreakers after it rolled a pole in the warm up at the Great Yorkshire. 
He was surrounded by fellow SJers and the warm up was 3 deep with spectators so he  clearly had no qualms about doing this in public. 

I've bought 3 horses out of racing and all 3 were well balanced, well mannered individuals who loved humans and clearly been treated with love and care while they were in training so it often annoys me when I hear people saying they all have miserable lives and no one gives a hoot about them.


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## TPO (31 March 2022)

minesadouble said:



			Socking horses in the mouth is certainly not confined to racing
		
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I know, and I did also mention the casual cruelty and neglect to horses that I've witnessed on livery yards, but this thread was specifically about racing. I was responding to a comment about people who work/are involved in racing actually caring about the horses.


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