# Horse and Hound lost the plot?



## horsebenny (12 March 2015)

Is it just me or is it very wrong for a reputable equestrian magazine like Horse and Hound to publish in it's centre pages a pic of 'H&H's Sarah Jenkins' riding a stallion in no hat and in what look suspiciously like Ugg boots.  Really? Is that a good example to be setting? To me that is wrong on so many levels...


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## Summer pudding (12 March 2015)

horsebenny said:



			Is it just me or is it very wrong for a reputable equestrian magazine like Horse and Hound to publish in it's centre pages a pic of 'H&H's Sarah Jenkins' riding a stallion in no hat and in what look suspiciously like Ugg boots.  Really? Is that a good example to be setting? To me that is wrong on so many levels...
		
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I don't think they should include pics of anyone riding without a hat and that inc the Queen..I expect to be shot down...am ducking!


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## webble (12 March 2015)

I agree



Summer pudding said:



			I don't think they should include pics of anyone riding without a hat and that inc the Queen..I expect to be shot down...am ducking!
		
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## fatponee (12 March 2015)

Apart from sending the wrong message to it's readers, she should know better anyway!


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## Cheshire Chestnut (12 March 2015)

At least the queen kind of makes an effort and at least wears a scarf on her head


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## popsdosh (12 March 2015)

fatponee said:



			Apart from sending the wrong message to it's readers, she should know better anyway!
		
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I expect I will get shot down! however she is doing nothing that is illegal !!  Luckily it is still personal choice not saying I advocate it however she is perfectly entitled to ride without a hat if she wishes.


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## Clodagh (12 March 2015)

popsdosh said:



			I expect I will get shot down! however she is doing nothing that is illegal !!  Luckily it is still personal choice not saying I advocate it however she is perfectly entitled to ride without a hat if she wishes.
		
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I'm with you. Reading everyone elses comments you can see where the Nanny State came from. Health and Safety is a growth industry.


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## horsebenny (12 March 2015)

I don't dispute that she can choose to ride without a hat and in Ugg boots (the stupid woman can ride in high heels and a tiara for all I care!) however completely dumb that might be, but they shouldn't publish pictures like that in Horse and Hound


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## catkin (12 March 2015)

In the article they explain that it is an old picture and that they wouldn't do it now.

Make of that what you will....


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## Summer pudding (12 March 2015)

horsebenny said:



			I don't dispute that she can choose to ride without a hat and in Ugg boots (the stupid woman can ride in high heels and a tiara for all I care!) however completely dumb that might be, but they shouldn't publish pictures like that in Horse and Hound
		
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The point I was trying to make.....H&H make it policy..simples..if you don't wear a hat your pic won't be included whoever you are.


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## Clodagh (12 March 2015)

I never rode without a hat when I was young, even though lots of people didn't bother then. I do think you have to give some people some credit, we are not all completely sheeplike.


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## fatponee (12 March 2015)

IMHO as the Editor of the world's most well known equestrian magazine, not only should she set an example to readers who may be influenced by what they see, but that she must know only too well the risks of riding without a hat.

My opinion only, not trying to cause a fight!


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## Polar Bear9 (12 March 2015)

Probably not their greatest move ever. I have no problem with people risking their own heads in their spare time (if they are over 18) but to publish it in such a well known magazine is asking for criticism. Although I have just had to carefully scan the pages to find it, from the OP I thought it was gonna be a huge spread.


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## SpringArising (12 March 2015)

Clodagh said:



			I do think you have to give some people some credit, we are not all completely sheeplike.
		
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Meaning?


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## skint1 (12 March 2015)

Summer pudding said:



			The point I was trying to make.....H&H make it policy..simples..if you don't wear a hat your pic won't be included whoever you are.
		
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Except for the Queen surely!


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## Summer pudding (12 March 2015)

skint1 said:



			Except for the Queen surely!
		
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Missing my original point..inc the Queen.  By not wearing a hat she is sending the message that it's OK and safe. H&H is not being asked to comment but just to have a blanket ban on everyone who doesn't wear a hat, what's not to like....or am I missing the point - are there lots of people out there who don't always wear a hat?!


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## Arizahn (12 March 2015)

I haven't read the issue and this thread isn't going to change that. The Queen may do as she pleases, as may everyone else regarding hats, imo.


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## Beausmate (12 March 2015)

Why not just Photoshop a hat onto the head concerned?

Job done


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## vanrim (12 March 2015)

I don't think any of you know the history of that photo. There was a feature in 2008 about Diamond Hit and she went to Germany to interview Emma Hindle about him. I remember because I had used him on my mare that year. She did not expect to ride anything and so had not gone prepared. Emma obviously trusted the horse and offered to let her ride him which she did. I have to confess I would have said yes too given the opportunity to ride such a great stallion and I NEVER ride without a hat. Obviously times have changed now and it wouldn't happen today which is what H&H says in the article!


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## Dunlin (12 March 2015)

H&H is not a "serial offender", this genuinely seems like a one off thing, as vanrim says above, she was not expecting to ride so to get some lovely photographs of her riding such a great Stallion it would be a shame not to publish them. This is Horse and Hound, not Pony magazine, if the audience had been strictly children then there may be a point as you can see children as being influenced more than adults by what others wear but where does this end? What next, to not publish Hunting pictures where the rider is wearing a Patey or a Dressage rider in a top hat?


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## vanrim (12 March 2015)

Exactly.




Dunlin said:



			H&H is not a "serial offender", this genuinely seems like a one off thing, as vanrim says above, she was not expecting to ride so to get some lovely photographs of her riding such a great Stallion it would be a shame not to publish them. This is Horse and Hound, not Pony magazine, if the audience had been strictly children then there may be a point as you can see children as being influenced more than adults by what others wear but where does this end? What next, to not publish Hunting pictures where the rider is wearing a Patey or a Dressage rider in a top hat?
		
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## Mike007 (12 March 2015)

H&H havnt HAD the plot since the days of Oaksey.


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## popsdosh (13 March 2015)

Summer pudding said:



			Missing my original point..inc the Queen.  By not wearing a hat she is sending the message that it's OK and safe. H&H is not being asked to comment but just to have a blanket ban on everyone who doesn't wear a hat, what's not to like....or am I missing the point - are there lots of people out there who don't always wear a hat?!
		
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So H&H have to conform to what you feel is acceptable ? You say you are not asking them to comment but you are by their actions! 
There are plenty that still dont wear a hat and they tend to be from one discipline!


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## horsebenny (13 March 2015)

That wasn't the point, the point was that H&H shouldn't publish pics of hatless riders.


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## horsebenny (13 March 2015)

vanrim said:



			I don't think any of you know the history of that photo. There was a feature in 2008 about Diamond Hit and she went to Germany to interview Emma Hindle about him. I remember because I had used him on my mare that year. She did not expect to ride anything and so had not gone prepared. Emma obviously trusted the horse and offered to let her ride him which she did. I have to confess I would have said yes too given the opportunity to ride such a great stallion and I NEVER ride without a hat. Obviously times have changed now and it wouldn't happen today which is what H&H says in the article!
		
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And that exactly why they shouldn't have published the picture.


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## DabDab (13 March 2015)

Summer pudding said:



			Missing my original point..inc the Queen.  By not wearing a hat she is sending the message that it's OK and safe. H&H is not being asked to comment but just to have a blanket ban on everyone who doesn't wear a hat, what's not to like....or am I missing the point - are there lots of people out there who don't always wear a hat?!
		
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Horse riding IS dangerous - so why stop there? Why not insist on everyone wearing a back protector? In fact you should probably get rid of the whole racing, hunting and eventing sections. And once you have cleaned up H&H you can start on the motoring magazines, because getting in my car every day must be statistically several thousand times more dangerous than riding without a hat, so I definitely need protecting from that.


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## popsdosh (13 March 2015)

horsebenny said:



			That wasn't the point, the point was that H&H shouldn't publish pics of hatless riders.
		
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Why?

 If not because you think they should conform to your views! Like I say I always wear a hat however its other peoples choice if they do or not I dont see the issue being raised here because at present it is only illegal for any youngster under 14 not to wear a hat! and then only on a road.


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## Welly (13 March 2015)

she can do as she pleases, H&H can print what they like, and you have the right to comment on it, It's called a free country. But if you feel so strongly about hats lobby your MP and the government to stop the VAT on them!


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## horsebenny (13 March 2015)

popsdosh said:



			Why?

 If not because you think they should conform to your views! Like I say I always wear a hat however its other peoples choice if they do or not I dont see the issue being raised here because at present it is only illegal for any youngster under 14 not to wear a hat! and then only on a road.
		
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Because they are allegedly a responsible journal.


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## DabDab (13 March 2015)

horsebenny said:



			Because they are allegedly a responsible journal.
		
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But you are imposing on them your idea of what is responsible - personally I have more of an issue with pictures of obese showing horses than riders without hats when it comes to being a responsible journal TBH.


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## Nightmare before Christmas (13 March 2015)

If people are influenced not to wear a hat by a picture then more fool them! It's not law to wear one and everyone can make their own decision. Im sure people are stronger than to not wear a hat because they saw a photo in a magazine. if someone doesn't want to wear one, chances are they won't no matter what anyone else does.


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## ribbons (13 March 2015)

How many films and tv programmes do we watch and love, especially the historical ones. First to mind is poldark.
Should all actors and stunt riders wear a hat in case they influence a viewer.
Ban all western riders being seen in public as well.

The reason many riders today should wear a hat, body protector, shin pads, elbow covers and probably a body cage is because they can't ride one side of a rocking horse. 
The rest can make up their own mind. 
Of course its sensible to protect your head, but when its your head it's your choice.


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## horsebenny (13 March 2015)

ribbons said:



			How many films and tv programmes do we watch and love, especially the historical ones. First to mind is poldark.
Should all actors and stunt riders wear a hat in case they influence a viewer.
Ban all western riders being seen in public as well.

The reason many riders today should wear a hat, body protector, shin pads, elbow covers and probably a body cage is because they can't ride one side of a rocking horse. 
The rest can make up their own mind. 
Of course its sensible to protect your head, but when its your head it's your choice.
		
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Roy Kinnear died after falling from a horse while filming, so it does happen.


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## D66 (13 March 2015)

I would still wear a hat even if ALL the photos in Horse and Hound were of bare-headed riders.  Give the readers some credit for common sense please.  
btw I read the whole issue including the article and I didn't notice the hatless picture.


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## horsebenny (13 March 2015)

Digger66 said:



			I would still wear a hat even if ALL the photos in Horse and Hound were of bare-headed riders.  Give the readers some credit for common sense please.  
btw I read the whole issue including the article and I didn't notice the hatless picture.
		
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Young people are easily influenced.  There's nothing big or clever about head injury and brain damage and that's the message Horse & Hound should be trying to get across.


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## ribbons (13 March 2015)

Of course it happens. So do car accidents, plane crashes and lung cancer.
Its all about assessing your own life and making your own decisions.
The trouble is these days, health and safety rules fool people into believing that if they follow the rules they will be healthy and safe, and that's just not the case, but it lulls everyone into a false sense of security.

We seem to have lost the ability to make decisions about anything for ourselves, even notice a wet floor or uneven surface and walk carefully. 

By the way, a reinforced steel helmet wouldn't have saved Christopher Reeves from his injuries.


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## horsebenny (13 March 2015)

ribbons said:



			Of course it happens. So do car accidents, plane crashes and lung cancer.
Its all about assessing your own life and making your own decisions.
The trouble is these days, health and safety rules fool people into believing that if they follow the rules they will be healthy and safe, and that's just not the case, but it lulls everyone into a false sense of security.

We seem to have lost the ability to make decisions about anything for ourselves, even notice a wet floor or uneven surface and walk carefully. 

By the way, a reinforced steel helmet wouldn't have saved Christopher Reeves from his injuries.
		
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Therefore H&H should lead by example.


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## D66 (13 March 2015)

The message I want H&H to get across is the current horsey news.  There was a big article on the changes in hat standards; I read that properly. 

I don't wear a back protector - my choice, my risk. Once you have made hat wearing compulsory will you be round to check I have done up the girth properly and the snaffle is the right way up?  Could be dangerous if the horse gets upset!  

IMO H&H does a very good job on health and safety issues, and doesn't need wet blankets ramming (perfectly legitimate) concerns down our throats (to mix a couple of metaphors) at every turn.


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## ribbons (13 March 2015)

Digger66 said:



			The message I want H&H to get across is the current horsey news.  There was a big article on the changes in hat standards; I read that properly. 

I don't wear a back protector - my choice, my risk. Once you have made hat wearing compulsory will you be round to check I have done up the girth properly and the snaffle is the right way up?  Could be dangerous if the horse gets upset!  

IMO H&H does a very good job on health and safety issues, and doesn't need wet blankets ramming (perfectly legitimate) concerns down our throats (to mix a couple of metaphors) at every turn.
		
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Agreed.

Its the job of a magazine  like H&H to inform us of what's available and keep us up to date with safety issues. Then allow us to make our own decisions once armed with that information.

If anyone relies on a picture of what other people do or don't wear in respect of their own safety,  they should stay well away from horses altogether.


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## horsebenny (13 March 2015)

Digger66 said:



			The message I want H&H to get across is the current horsey news.  There was a big article on the changes in hat standards; I read that properly. 

I don't wear a back protector - my choice, my risk. Once you have made hat wearing compulsory will you be round to check I have done up the girth properly and the snaffle is the right way up?  Could be dangerous if the horse gets upset!  

IMO H&H does a very good job on health and safety issues, and doesn't need wet blankets ramming (perfectly legitimate) concerns down our throats (to mix a couple of metaphors) at every turn.
		
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I'm far from a wet blanket thank you and I just hope those who choose not to protect themselves when riding remember that choice with a wry smile when they are sitting in a spinal or head injury unit using precious NHS resources on a preventable injury.


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## D66 (13 March 2015)

horsebenny said:



			I'm far from a wet blanket thank you and I just hope those who choose not to protect themselves when riding remember that choice with a wry smile when they are sitting in a spinal or head injury unit using precious NHS resources on a preventable injury.
		
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Better not ride then - any of us.


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## marmalade88 (13 March 2015)

DabDab said:



			But you are imposing on them your idea of what is responsible - personally I have more of an issue with pictures of obese showing horses than riders without hats when it comes to being a responsible journal TBH.
		
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This. 


Should also photos also show body protectors?
The horse with boots on?
Or more?

Common sense must prevail, you can advertise wearing any safety gear all you like, in this society people have a choice. 

There's a law saying you have to wear a seat belt, although some people still don't.


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## marmalade88 (13 March 2015)

horsebenny said:



			Young people are easily influenced.  There's nothing big or clever about head injury and brain damage and that's the message Horse & Hound should be trying to get across.
		
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Them showing a photo of someone without a has doesn't equal them saying don't wear a hat. You interpreting things that way says more about you than H&Hs standpoint imo. Stop putting words in people mouths and reading too much into things, get a grip. 

If people don't have the wherewithal to wear a hat in the first place then there's obviously not much left in their heads to protect.


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## NellRosk (13 March 2015)

vanrim said:



			I don't think any of you know the history of that photo. There was a feature in 2008 about Diamond Hit and she went to Germany to interview Emma Hindle about him. I remember because I had used him on my mare that year. She did not expect to ride anything and so had not gone prepared. Emma obviously trusted the horse and offered to let her ride him which she did. I have to confess I would have said yes too given the opportunity to ride such a great stallion and I NEVER ride without a hat. Obviously times have changed now and it wouldn't happen today which is what H&H says in the article!
		
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Eh could she have not just borrowed a hat? If I found myself in Germany with the chance to ride an unfamiliar horse I would just ask to borrow a hat, surely someone else on the yard would have one..


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## ribbons (13 March 2015)

horsebenny said:



			I'm far from a wet blanket thank you and I just hope those who choose not to protect themselves when riding remember that choice with a wry smile when they are sitting in a spinal or head injury unit using precious NHS resources on a preventable injury.
		
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Oh dear, I wondered  when NHS resources would be brought up.
Ok let's look at,
Smoking
Drinking
Skiing
Snowboarding
Roller skating
Ice skating
Fell running
Trampolining
And spectacularly obesity.
Etc etc etc 

While NHS continues to fund non medical procedures like fertility I will not accept that argument.


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## ycbm (13 March 2015)

horsebenny said:



			I'm far from a wet blanket thank you and I just hope those who choose not to protect themselves when riding remember that choice with a wry smile when they are sitting in a spinal or head injury unit using precious NHS resources on a preventable injury.
		
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No hat will protect you from a spinal injury. And some of the most expensive patients will be those who would have died without a hat on, and cost nothing. Their choice.


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## armchair_rider (13 March 2015)

Dunlin said:



			H&H is not a "serial offender", this genuinely seems like a one off thing, as vanrim says above, she was not expecting to ride so to get some lovely photographs of her riding such a great Stallion it would be a shame not to publish them. This is Horse and Hound, not Pony magazine, if the audience had been strictly children then there may be a point as you can see children as being influenced more than adults by what others wear but where does this end? What next, to not publish Hunting pictures where the rider is wearing a Patey or a Dressage rider in a top hat?
		
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ribbons said:



			Agreed.

Its the job of a magazine  like H&H to inform us of what's available and keep us up to date with safety issues. Then allow us to make our own decisions once armed with that information.

If anyone relies on a picture of what other people do or don't wear in respect of their own safety,  they should stay well away from horses altogether.
		
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I agree with both of these posts. I think that the equestrian media should promote the use of hats (and hi vis, body protectors and appropriate footwear) but it's dubious to suggest that pictures in magazines are the major influence on whether people wear them or not. It's also worth remembering that H&H has a primarily adult readership - as ribbons says it can, and should, inform rather than having 'wear a hat' printed in inch high letters on every page. However a magazine that is aimed at children or teenagers probably should carry a more overt message.

And I definitely think it's double standards to suggest that no hat is bad but not complain about top hats, pateys etc. Either somebody is wearing a hat which gives them a good level of protection or they aren't


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## horsebenny (13 March 2015)

HenleyRider said:



			Them showing a photo of someone without a has doesn't equal them saying don't wear a hat. You interpreting things that way says more about you than H&Hs standpoint imo. Stop putting words in people mouths and reading too much into things, get a grip. 

If people don't have the wherewithal to wear a hat in the first place then there's obviously not much left in their heads to protect.
		
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Nope, doesn't say 'more about (me)' thanks. And my original point before all the vitriol started was it is personal choice whether folk risk riding without a hat or not but H&H shouldn't publish a picture of a senior member of staff (and therefore in an influential position) riding a stallion in Ugg boots with no hat.


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## Nicnac (13 March 2015)

horsebenny said:



			I just hope those who choose not to protect themselves when riding remember that choice with a wry smile when they are sitting in a spinal or head injury unit using precious NHS resources on a preventable injury.
		
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Please do tell of examples when a spinal/head injury could be preventable?  As someone who has worked with people with both SCI & ABI for many years, I would love to know how they can be prevented.  

Your statement is frankly ludicrous.

As to H&H, they do a great job in informing us of risk; products to manage those risks and this photo is a one-off.


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## D66 (13 March 2015)

I dont disagree that its safer to wear a hat or that it would be best if Horse and hound supported that stance.  In my mind they do.  I don't think they have "lost the plot" by printing one picture of someone riding hatless.

I would prefer to choose the level of protection to employ when I ride and not have it dictated to me.  I support the right of other riders to make a different choice to mine.


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## pennyturner (13 March 2015)

Should no media outlet show any photos which don't conform to an accepted contemporary consensus?  Photos of people smoking, films showing driving without seat-belts?  How about historical activities (elephant hunting?) or taking place abroad where the norm is different.

What a patronising and ridiculous attitude.


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## Abacus (13 March 2015)

It seems to be the whole point of the article and photo combined that he is such a fantastic (and 'safe') horse, so the photo in exactly that form is highly relevant. Of course it's still taking an excessive risk, ideally she'd have popped on a hat, and so on. But I can see exactly why they used that photo in the context of the article,


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## oldie48 (13 March 2015)

Its clearly stated that it's an old photo and is included to emphasise the faith that Emma Hindle has in his temperament. In the context of the article it seems fine to me that it's included. H&H often include old photos, some have shown riders wearing hats without chinstraps, or well known riders as children jumping huge fences without a body protector for example but I can't see that it encourages anyone to copy. I like to see these old photos, it would be a huge pity if they had to excluded for H&S reasons or photo shopped to match current safety standards!


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## pennyturner (13 March 2015)

I just wanted to post this to upset the hat-nazis.

Huaso (1933 - August 24, 1961), ridden by Chilean Captain Alberto Larraguibel, setting the high-jump world record on February 5, 1949, by jumping 2.47 m (8 ft 1 in) in Viña del Mar, Chile, one of the longest-running unbroken sport records in history (64 years).

Caution - should not be viewed by anyone after 1986 as contains scenes of riding without a hat - and apparently the horse (a stallion - pass me the smelling salts) was a nutter too!
Don't try this at home folks
;o)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9DpcObFMaCs


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## horsebenny (13 March 2015)

pennyturner said:



			I just wanted to post this to upset the hat-nazis.

Huaso (1933 - August 24, 1961), ridden by Chilean Captain Alberto Larraguibel, setting the high-jump world record on February 5, 1949, by jumping 2.47 m (8 ft 1 in) in Viña del Mar, Chile, one of the longest-running unbroken sport records in history (64 years).

Caution - should not be viewed by anyone after 1986 as contains scenes of riding without a hat - and apparently the horse (a stallion - pass me the smelling salts) was a nutter too!
Don't try this at home folks
;o)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9DpcObFMaCs

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For 'hat nazis' read 'safety conscious', boy you have a chip on your shoulder...


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## pennyturner (13 March 2015)

horsebenny said:



			For 'hat nazis' read 'safety conscious', boy you have a chip on your shoulder...
		
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No; 'safety conscious' is putting your own hat on every time (and anyone you're responsible for, obviously).  
Publicly pressuring someone else to not show an old photo of an unconnected party riding without = hat nazi.


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## horsebenny (13 March 2015)

pennyturner said:



			No; 'safety conscious' is putting your own hat on every time (and anyone you're responsible for, obviously).  
Publicly pressuring someone else to not show an old photo of an unconnected party riding without = hat nazi.
		
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Never heard such nonsense...


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## marmalade88 (13 March 2015)

8-|


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## Aleka81 (13 March 2015)

pennyturner said:



			No; 'safety conscious' is putting your own hat on every time (and anyone you're responsible for, obviously).  
Publicly pressuring someone else to not show an old photo of an unconnected party riding without = hat nazi.
		
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Well said!


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## applecart14 (13 March 2015)

Summer pudding said:



			Missing my original point..inc the Queen.  By not wearing a hat she is sending the message that it's OK and safe. H&H is not being asked to comment but just to have a blanket ban on everyone who doesn't wear a hat, what's not to like....or am I missing the point - are there lots of people out there who don't always wear a hat?!
		
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I agree.  Having lost a fellow livery who had a head injury and died (was wearing a hat but not her own) and me that was fitting with eyes rolling into the back of my head and intensive care overnight after a bad concussion, again whilst wearing a hat, it beggars belief that people will ride without one, like people drive without a seatbelt, drink when drunk, ride without fluorescent, etc, etc.  But its their decision at the end of the day.  

But I agree a blanket ban in publications, and a ban on riding on road and livery yards too for those that ride without hats.  Just out of interest I would love to know if anything could ever come back  on a livery yard owner that let someone without a hat ride in their school and something happened.  I assume it would come back on a competition centre for example.


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## applecart14 (13 March 2015)

pennyturner said:



			I just wanted to post this to upset the hat-nazis.

Huaso (1933 - August 24, 1961), ridden by Chilean Captain Alberto Larraguibel, setting the high-jump world record on February 5, 1949, by jumping 2.47 m (8 ft 1 in) in Viña del Mar, Chile, one of the longest-running unbroken sport records in history (64 years).
		
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The simple reason?  Because in those days people didn't realise the consequences of riding without a hat.  The head injury and the resultant problems that come with such an injury.  Roll on 18 years and my head injury classed 'severe concussion' still has an impact on my life.  I suffered from migraines for years afterwards, and I have problems with recognition of faces, long term memory, relating something to someone with a 'thread' and sometimes get very frustrated trying to explain things to people, sometimes it results in me becoming angry with frustration and teary. Those that know me well understand.  

Just because they did something in 'the old days' doesn't mean it was sensible or clever!


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## Arizahn (13 March 2015)

applecart14 said:



			I agree.  Having lost a fellow livery who had a head injury and died (was wearing a hat but not her own) *and me that was fitting with eyes rolling into the back of my head and intensive care overnight* after a bad concussion, again whilst wearing a hat, it beggars belief that people will ride without one, like people drive without a seatbelt, drink when drunk, ride without fluorescent, etc, etc.  But its their decision at the end of the day.  

But I agree a blanket ban in publications, and a ban on riding on road and livery yards too for those that ride without hats.  Just out of interest I would love to know if anything could ever come back  on a livery yard owner that let someone without a hat ride in their school and something happened.  I assume it would come back on a competition centre for example.
		
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As someone who has often woken up in hospital after a serious neurological event, I'm offended by your choice of words here.


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## applecart14 (13 March 2015)

Arizahn said:



			As someone who has often woken up in hospital after a serious neurological event, I'm offended by your choice of words here.
		
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Sorry I'm not sure what you mean.  After the fall I had (horse went down on shoulder and I was catapaulted off landing on my head) - an off duty police lady who was a livery on the yard drove me to hospital as she suspected I had a head injury.  I started talking strangely to her on the way and she knew I was in trouble.  On arrival at hospital I was combative with the consultant (typical head injury) and I was fitting and my eyes were rolling back into the back of my head.  I was blue light to a hospital with a CAT scanner as my hospital didn't have one at the time.  I was in intensive care overnight. Wasn't being glib in the slightest.  There was a suspicion that I had a bleed on the brain, fortunately I didn't but the problems that I have now (much less than before) are as a result of this injury, all those years ago.


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## Firefly9410 (13 March 2015)

I have not read all the replies so I apologise if this has already been said. H&H is a hunting magazine, there are no hat rules in hunting other than dress code rules. How could they ban photos of people who do not wear hats to a modern safety standard or at all? They could end up with no pics left! As for the Queen, I love her and like to see photos of her I do not care what she wears on her head. She is happy with her choice and always looks smart that is good enough for me. I sometimes buy magazines just because there is a photo of her. magazines are not a public service they are a business and will mostly be concerned with what sells. If you dislike hatless photos maybe you could refuse to buy anything with them in? It would have bigger impact I think than moaning on here.


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## armchair_rider (13 March 2015)

oldie48 said:



			Its clearly stated that it's an old photo and is included to emphasise the faith that Emma Hindle has in his temperament. In the context of the article it seems fine to me that it's included. H&H often include old photos, some have shown riders wearing hats without chinstraps, or well known riders as children jumping huge fences without a body protector for example but I can't see that it encourages anyone to copy. I like to see these old photos, it would be a huge pity if they had to excluded for H&S reasons or photo shopped to match current safety standards!
		
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I would hate to see old photos being excluded/photoshopped to make them more acceptable to modern viewers. And i'm not sure they'd be very influential anyway - people are no less likely to leave their hat off because of an old photo than they are to hack out in a hacking jacket



applecart14 said:



			The simple reason?  *Because in those days people didn't realise the consequences of riding without a hat*.  The head injury and the resultant problems that come with such an injury.  Roll on 18 years and my head injury classed 'severe concussion' still has an impact on my life.  I suffered from migraines for years afterwards, and I have problems with recognition of faces, long term memory, relating something to someone with a 'thread' and sometimes get very frustrated trying to explain things to people, sometimes it results in me becoming angry with frustration and teary. Those that know me well understand.  

Just because they did something in 'the old days' doesn't mean it was sensible or clever!
		
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I think it's more a case of not having effective hats on offer - I get the impression that, as hats have improved, people have become more likely to wear them. People certainly understood the potential consequences of head injuries even if they didn't understand the mechanisms.

I do agree with the last sentence of your post though


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## SpringArising (13 March 2015)

If someone doesn't wear a hat because they 'have faith in their horse', then I am truly in awe of their naïvety. Has no safe horse ever tripped over, fallen down, been spooked by a bird suddenly jumping out of a hedge or simply had a fright and taken off? 

Any sane horse person never 100% trusts any horse. It's impossible to believe that nothing unexpected will ever happen around something with a brain of its own. 

For those saying "So where does it stop? Should we all wear back protectors or stop riding completely?" - no. That's not what anybody is saying. It's about taking the steps to reduce unnecessary risks. You obviously know that riding is dangerous, so why would you not want to do everything in your power to make it as safe as possible? 

If some people don't want to wear a hat, I really don't care; as long as you don't have any family or friends who will be the ones wiping your a$$ after your faithful horse has had a bucking fit and you have knocked your skull on the way down.


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## ycbm (13 March 2015)

horsebenny said:



			Never heard such nonsense...
		
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You've led a sheltered life


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## horsebenny (13 March 2015)

ycbm said:



			You've led a sheltered life 

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How would you know?


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## The Fuzzy Furry (13 March 2015)

Helmets were not safety items many years ago, for horse riders and motorbikers.
Seatbelts in cars were not mandatory.

Fast forwards to this century & its been found that using both the above does save lives as proven by facts.
Its mandatory to wear seatbelts in moving vehicles, also for motorbikers to wear helmets.
Also mandatory to wear recognised safety helmets when competing on horseback, some even (shock horror to some here) having to wear body protectors too!

Anyways, back to the OP - totally agree that H&H ought to be setting standards not applying it as & when they think its required.


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## JFTDWS (13 March 2015)

Fwiw, I think getting up in arms about a single photo of a hatless rider with an explanation in the text is in the realms of the professionally offended.  Like a previous poster, I feel more strongly about the multitude of photos of obese show horses every week. 

It's one photo of an unusual situation. They're hardly publishing photos of dozens of kids with the title "hatless is fun! Who cares if you become a vegetable!"

Also, if I hear one more mention of "back protectors" I'm going to scream. Body protectors. Because that's what they're designed to protect :/


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## applecart14 (13 March 2015)

JFTD said:



			Fwiw, I think getting up in arms about a single photo of a hatless rider with an explanation in the text is in the realms of the professionally offended.  Like a previous poster, I feel more strongly about the multitude of photos of obese show horses every week. 

It's one photo of an unusual situation. They're hardly publishing photos of dozens of kids with the title "hatless is fun! Who cares if you become a vegetable!"

Also, if I hear one more mention of "back protectors" I'm going to scream. Body protectors. Because that's what they're designed to protect :/
		
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Ha ha, you would hate me then as I keep referring to my air jacket as an air bag. lol


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## minesadouble (13 March 2015)

I do think we need to remember that whilst wearing a hat is sensible and advisable it is not a legal requirement (unless a minor riding on roads).
As for body protectors I'm interested to know how far they have come. I am old enough to remember the introduction of body protectors into the horsey community and I also remember that they would protect you from bruising but that they would not prevent broken bones. I assume they must have progressed since those days.
However I see quite frequently in Facebook people saying 'my body protector saved my life' I have to say I very much doubt that that is the case!
Photos in H&H of hatless riders do not concern me at all, the 'nanny state' mentality bothers me a lot!


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## JFTDWS (13 March 2015)

AppleCart, whilst the colloquial nature of that term is one I would be disclined to use personally, it is not deeply and erroneously misleading in the manner in which "back protector" is - no back protector offers significant spinal protection, other than possibly from penetrating injuries...


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## Clodagh (13 March 2015)

SpringArising said:



			If someone doesn't wear a hat because they 'have faith in their horse', then I am truly in awe of their naïvety. Has no safe horse ever tripped over, fallen down, been spooked by a bird suddenly jumping out of a hedge or simply had a fright and taken off? 

Any sane horse person never 100% trusts any horse. It's impossible to believe that nothing unexpected will ever happen around something with a brain of its own. 

For those saying "So where does it stop? Should we all wear back protectors or stop riding completely?" - no. That's not what anybody is saying. It's about taking the steps to reduce unnecessary risks. You obviously know that riding is dangerous, so why would you not want to do everything in your power to make it as safe as possible? 

If some people don't want to wear a hat, I really don't care; as long as you don't have any family or friends who will be the ones wiping your a$$ after your faithful horse has had a bucking fit and you have knocked your skull on the way down.
		
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But those of us who think you are being ridiculous don't necessarily not wear hats - I always wear a hat, my chidren wear hats and body protectors (when younger) I just don't see a pic of someone riding without one and think 'dammit that looks cool' and take off bareheaded. Earlier, when I said sheeplike that was what I meant - I can see a picture of a page 3 girl and keep my top on too. (Thank goodness say the population).


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## ycbm (13 March 2015)

Mimi



JFTD said:



			AppleCart, whilst the colloquial nature of that term is one I would be disclined to use personally, it is not deeply and erroneously misleading in the manner in which "back protector" is - no back protector offers significant spinal protection, other than possibly from penetrating injuries...
		
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It's older people that it's come from jftd. The first ones back in the mists of time only covered your back, not the front of your body, and so they were called back protectors, not body protectors, and people have just stuck with the habit.


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## Bustermartin (13 March 2015)

ycbm said:



			Mimi

It's older people that it's come from jftd. The first ones back in the mists of time only covered your back, not the front of your body, and so they were called back protectors, not body protectors, and people have just stuck with the habit.
		
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'Back in the mists of time........'  how old do I feel now!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## horsebenny (13 March 2015)

SpringArising said:



			If someone doesn't wear a hat because they 'have faith in their horse', then I am truly in awe of their naïvety. Has no safe horse ever tripped over, fallen down, been spooked by a bird suddenly jumping out of a hedge or simply had a fright and taken off? 

Any sane horse person never 100% trusts any horse. It's impossible to believe that nothing unexpected will ever happen around something with a brain of its own. 

For those saying "So where does it stop? Should we all wear back protectors or stop riding completely?" - no. That's not what anybody is saying. It's about taking the steps to reduce unnecessary risks. You obviously know that riding is dangerous, so why would you not want to do everything in your power to make it as safe as possible? 

If some people don't want to wear a hat, I really don't care; as long as you don't have any family or friends who will be the ones wiping your a$$ after your faithful horse has had a bucking fit and you have knocked your skull on the way down.
		
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Totally agree.  When I was a kid a lady in our village had the safest, quietest horse you could find - she even used to hack to the local shop and throw her shopping over his back.  She did that for years.  One day, out of the blue, he got a fright and bolted. She died.


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## marmalade76 (13 March 2015)

popsdosh said:



			I expect I will get shot down! however she is doing nothing that is illegal !!  Luckily it is still personal choice not saying I advocate it however she is perfectly entitled to ride without a hat if she wishes.
		
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I agree.


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## DabDab (13 March 2015)

SpringArising said:



			If someone doesn't wear a hat because they 'have faith in their horse', then I am truly in awe of their naïvety. Has no safe horse ever tripped over, fallen down, been spooked by a bird suddenly jumping out of a hedge or simply had a fright and taken off? 

Any sane horse person never 100% trusts any horse. It's impossible to believe that nothing unexpected will ever happen around something with a brain of its own. 

For those saying "So where does it stop? Should we all wear back protectors or stop riding completely?" - no. That's not what anybody is saying. It's about taking the steps to reduce unnecessary risks. You obviously know that riding is dangerous, so why would you not want to do everything in your power to make it as safe as possible? 

If some people don't want to wear a hat, I really don't care; as long as you don't have any family or friends who will be the ones wiping your a$$ after your faithful horse has had a bucking fit and you have knocked your skull on the way down.
		
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The point is that the vast majority of people do wear hats and one photo in a magazine among a sea of photos of riders with hats is not going to stop them wearing one.

I neither need nor want protection from seeing images of people being irresponsible. And I don't want to read a magazine that I know has been censored in such a way.


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## Sleighfarer (13 March 2015)

In the same issue of H&H there is a cover line about Jo Hamilton, the dressage rider, who recently sustained a brain injury falling in the school. She was wearing a hat, but the injuries would have been worse without it. As it is, she was in hospital for nine weeks and is still unable to ride.


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## Jericho (13 March 2015)

Seeing someone ride without a hat doesn't make me think oh I will do that. I have a young daughter and I hope I have brought her up to understand the importance of wearing a hat AND not to do something just because someone else has...


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## ribbons (13 March 2015)

DabDab said:



			I neither need nor want protection from seeing images of people being irresponsible. And I don't want to read a magazine that I know has been censored in such a way.
		
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This just about sums it up for me.


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## popsdosh (13 March 2015)

Perhaps a challenge for the Zealots would be to go through horse and hound and check out how many riders are wearing hats that conform to safety standards. To be blunt for every rider that becomes a burden on the NHS by not wearing a hat there will be one that is because they were! wearing hats does not stop riders becoming vegetables ! However I suspect that will go straight over your head!!


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## popsdosh (13 March 2015)

ribbons said:



			This just about sums it up for me.
		
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Exactly! Next they will stop pictures of jumping ,because they may fall off an injure themselves . I once saw a picture in the paper of somebody jumping off Beachy Head but something told me that was not a good idea!


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## horsebenny (13 March 2015)

popsdosh said:



			Exactly! Next they will stop pictures of jumping ,because they may fall off an injure themselves . I once saw a picture in the paper of somebody jumping off Beachy Head but something told me that was not a good idea!
		
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Totally missing the point which was, whatever your stance on hats or no hats, that a responsible magazine shouldn't publish a picture of it pseudo-Editor riding a stallion without a hag and wearing Ugg boots.


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## DabDab (13 March 2015)

horsebenny said:



			Totally missing the point which was, whatever your stance on hats or no hats, that a responsible magazine shouldn't publish a picture of it pseudo-Editor riding a stallion without a hag and wearing Ugg boots.
		
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Why not - what effect do you think publishing that picture will have? (genuinely curious)


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## Kaylum (13 March 2015)

I was riding in the school on a bomb proof horse just trotting he tripped I went down with him he stood on my head am still alive, the hat has died though.  irresponsible yes just like those photo shoots without hats and wedding dresses.


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## popsdosh (13 March 2015)

horsebenny said:



			Totally missing the point which was, whatever your stance on hats or no hats, that a responsible magazine shouldn't publish a picture of it pseudo-Editor riding a stallion without a hag and wearing Ugg boots.
		
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Have you never heard the term . 'When you find yourself in a hole stop digging' !!


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## JFTDWS (13 March 2015)

horsebenny said:



			Totally missing the point ...
		
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No, not missing it - disagreeing with it - it's a subtle distinction but a significant one...


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## npage123 (13 March 2015)

pennyturner said:



			I just wanted to post this to upset the hat-nazis.

Huaso (1933 - August 24, 1961), ridden by Chilean Captain Alberto Larraguibel, setting the high-jump world record on February 5, 1949, by jumping 2.47 m (8 ft 1 in) in Viña del Mar, Chile, one of the longest-running unbroken sport records in history (64 years).

Caution - should not be viewed by anyone after 1986 as contains scenes of riding without a hat - and apparently the horse (a stallion - pass me the smelling salts) was a nutter too!
Don't try this at home folks
;o)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9DpcObFMaCs

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I'm not joining this discussion - just wanted to thank you for that link pennyturner.  I never would have found that video by chance whilst browing the web.  What an amazing jump, but I hope the horse didn't have to do it at that height very often - his poor joints!


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## horsebenny (13 March 2015)

DabDab said:



			Why not - what effect do you think publishing that picture will have? (genuinely curious)
		
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The should set a consistently good example as they are in a responsible position.


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## Pennythetank (13 March 2015)

Honestly if somebody refuses to wear a hat because they saw a picture of somebody riding in uggs, call it natural selection..... 
A picture like that, surrounded by tons of other pictures of hat wearing riders isn't going to affect many people at all.


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## popsdosh (13 March 2015)

horsebenny said:



			The should set a consistently good example as they are in a responsible position.
		
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TO do what! You still have not explainedf why its such an issue! You obviously only think your view has any merit when most responses really cant see an issue! Bizarre!!


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## horsebenny (13 March 2015)

popsdosh said:



			TO do what! You still have not explainedf why its such an issue! You obviously only think your view has any merit when most responses really cant see an issue! Bizarre!!
		
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Oh for goodness sake! If you really don't think H&H should be setting an example then THAT is bizarre!


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## JFTDWS (13 March 2015)

horsebenny said:



			Oh for goodness sake! If you really don't think H&H should be setting an example then THAT is bizarre!
		
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Should H&H also not post photos of riders in top hats?


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## popsdosh (13 March 2015)

horsebenny said:



			Oh for goodness sake! If you really don't think H&H should be setting an example then THAT is bizarre!
		
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Example of what and for what Purpose? Serious question. If it was not in there we would not be having this discussion so maybe it has achieved more than if it had not been shown! . I dont need anybody to tell me not to put my hand in the fire. What would not showing that picture achieve or are you jealous of the Uggs!


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## horsebenny (13 March 2015)

popsdosh said:



			Example of what and for what Purpose? Serious question. If it was not in there we would not be having this discussion so maybe it has achieved more than if it had not been shown! . I dont need anybody to tell me not to put my hand in the fire. What would not showing that picture achieve or are you jealous of the Uggs!
		
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'Jealous of the Uggs'?? What on earth are you on about?


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## popsdosh (13 March 2015)

horsebenny said:



			'Jealous of the Uggs'?? What on earth are you on about?
		
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Take a chill pill ? Getting bored now!


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## DabDab (13 March 2015)

horsebenny said:



			The should set a consistently good example as they are in a responsible position.
		
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Yes, I appreciate that. But I'm not sure what they are responsible for - the average reader*or every mindless idiot that may flick through their magazine? 

Btw, I am not saying that everyone who chooses to ride without a hat is a mindless idiot, just those that would do so because of*one picture in a magazine.


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## xch4r (14 March 2015)

I didn't read all of these comments, I got to about page 6 and was peeing myself with laughter.

It's not up to you to decide if people should wear hats or not. I wear a hat because I'm not a muppet and value my brain however if people don't want to wear a hat that's their choice. I also wouldn't penalise HandH for publishing pics of people not wearing hats. I mean for gods sake when is it going to stop? Will every article have to have people wearing full body armour, and horses wearing every type of protective boot possible?

I'd like to point out that the NHS argument is also absurd, as Im pretty sure obese people probably cost us more than the few people who fall off and actually need to go to hospital. My father fell off and broke his back... And he was decked to the eyeballs in body armour as he was playing polo so just because you are wearing protective gear doesn't mean you are not going to have an injury. 

Another point.... How many children actually read... And I mean READ H&H and not just flick through? I know I didn't read it, i was in to pony magazine and if I ever looked at H&H I just flicked to the for sale pages!! 

People can make their own decisions as it is their own life and we shouldn't judge. H&H can publish whatever photos they like, really. If people are silly enough to be swayed by a photograph then more fool them.


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## silv (14 March 2015)

xch4r said:



			I didn't read all of these comments, I got to about page 6 and was peeing myself with laughter.

It's not up to you to decide if people should wear hats or not. I wear a hat because I'm not a muppet and value my brain however if people don't want to wear a hat that's their choice. I also wouldn't penalise HandH for publishing pics of people not wearing hats. I mean for gods sake when is it going to stop? Will every article have to have people wearing full body armour, and horses wearing every type of protective boot possible?

I'd like to point out that the NHS argument is also absurd, as Im pretty sure obese people probably cost us more than the few people who fall off and actually need to go to hospital. My father fell off and broke his back... And he was decked to the eyeballs in body armour as he was playing polo so just because you are wearing protective gear doesn't mean you are not going to have an injury. 

Another point.... How many children actually read... And I mean READ H&H and not just flick through? I know I didn't read it, i was in to pony magazine and if I ever looked at H&H I just flicked to the for sale pages!! 

People can make their own decisions as it is their own life and we shouldn't judge. H&H can publish whatever photos they like, really. If people are silly enough to be swayed by a photograph then more fool them.
		
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Couldn't have put it better myself!  well said.


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## horsebenny (14 March 2015)

silv said:



			Couldn't have put it better myself!  well said.
		
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Absolute arrogant rot.


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## horsebenny (14 March 2015)

xch4r said:



			I didn't read all of these comments, I got to about page 6 and was peeing myself with laughter.

It's not up to you to decide if people should wear hats or not. I wear a hat because I'm not a muppet and value my brain however if people don't want to wear a hat that's their choice. I also wouldn't penalise HandH for publishing pics of people not wearing hats. I mean for gods sake when is it going to stop? Will every article have to have people wearing full body armour, and horses wearing every type of protective boot possible?

I'd like to point out that the NHS argument is also absurd, as Im pretty sure obese people probably cost us more than the few people who fall off and actually need to go to hospital. My father fell off and broke his back... And he was decked to the eyeballs in body armour as he was playing polo so just because you are wearing protective gear doesn't mean you are not going to have an injury. 

Another point.... How many children actually read... And I mean READ H&H and not just flick through? I know I didn't read it, i was in to pony magazine and if I ever looked at H&H I just flicked to the for sale pages!! 

People can make their own decisions as it is their own life and we shouldn't judge. H&H can publish whatever photos they like, really. If people are silly enough to be swayed by a photograph then more fool them.
		
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Perhaps you should've read more closely then. I said people can wear what they like, I couldn't care less if they want to risk their own heads, but H&H should set a good example.


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## RaposadeGengibre (14 March 2015)

horsebenny said:



			Absolute arrogant rot.
		
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I have a clear vision of the thread and OP going down in flames but without glory...


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## horsebenny (14 March 2015)

RaposadeGengibre said:



			I have a clear vision of the thread and OP going down in flames but without glory...
		
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Nope. I just won't submit to the forum bullies.


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## RaposadeGengibre (14 March 2015)

horsebenny said:



			Nope. I just won't submit to the forum bullies.
		
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oh, please, dont flatter yourself, people are just disagreeing with you.

(I wondered how long before term "bullying" would be in the air)


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## horsebenny (14 March 2015)

RaposadeGengibre said:



			oh, please, dont flatter yourself, people are just disagreeing with you.

(I wondered how long before term "bullying" would be in the air)
		
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I'm perfectly happy for people to disagree with me but then get called things like 'hat nazi' just for having a different view.  I've seen it happen loads of times on this forum.  It's about time some people left the playground mentality behind.


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## Clodagh (14 March 2015)

But, HB, if everyone agreed all the time what would be the point of forums? Or discussion boards?


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## horsebenny (14 March 2015)

Clodagh said:



			But, HB, if everyone agreed all the time what would be the point of forums? Or discussion boards?
		
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Totally, totally agree and that's what I was hoping for, intelligent debate. As I said early on, I don't care if Sarah Jenkins rides in thigh heels and a tiara I just don't think a publication like Horse and Hound should publish a picture of their most senior editorial staff member doing so.


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## catkin (14 March 2015)

Actually, if this thread is a sample of discussions within their readership, H&H have got it spot on.

The primary responsibility of the H&H staff, like it or not, is to put together a magazine that sells - and a bit of controversy and discussion is a great way of getting publicity. How many having read this thread have either re-read their copy or gone out to find one?


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## horsebenny (14 March 2015)

catkin said:



			Actually, if this thread is a sample of discussions within their readership, H&H have got it spot on.

The primary responsibility of the H&H staff, like it or not, is to put together a magazine that sells - and a bit of controversy and discussion is a great way of getting publicity. How many having read this thread have either re-read their copy or gone out to find one?
		
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Good point, and given the number of views of this thread that may be a lot.


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## littleshetland (14 March 2015)

Good thread - very thought provoking and quite funny. 
Avery good friend of mine, some years back was shopping on the High Street - crossed the road to chat to friend, second later was mown down by a car and killed - whilst standing on the pavement chatting.  My point here is, we can find real risks in everything we do - granted - some activities a far more risky than others, and it's up to us to make the decisions for ourselves and our dependants on the probability of harm coming our way.  If H and H print a picture of a hatless rider - so what? big deal - use it to promote a discussion on riding hats and safety issues - make it a positive thing (which is whats happening here).... If we fill our lives with only sanitised and politically correct images that conform at all times to the correct safety standards - how can that leave room for debate and independent thought?
Perhaps we should stop watching F1 on tv - after all - we don't want people to think they can drive their cars everywhere at 150mph?

BTW Horsebenny - you're not MrsD123 are you?


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## horsebenny (14 March 2015)

littleshetland said:



			Good thread - very thought provoking and quite funny. 
Avery good friend of mine, some years back was shopping on the High Street - crossed the road to chat to friend, second later was mown down by a car and killed - whilst standing on the pavement chatting.  My point here is, we can find real risks in everything we do - granted - some activities a far more risky than others, and it's up to us to make the decisions for ourselves and our dependants on the probability of harm coming our way.  If H and H print a picture of a hatless rider - so what? big deal - use it to promote a discussion on riding hats and safety issues - make it a positive thing (which is whats happening here).... If we fill our lives with only sanitised and politically correct images that conform at all times to the correct safety standards - how can that leave room for debate and independent thought?
Perhaps we should stop watching F1 on tv - after all - we don't want people to think they can drive their cars everywhere at 150mph?

BTW Horsebenny - you're not MrsD123 are you?
		
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Mrs who? No I'm not. I'm simply a life long horse owner with a concern over a pic I think it was irresponsible to print, although I know (and knew) some others would disagree.


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## JFTDWS (14 March 2015)

horsebenny said:



			Totally, totally agree and that's what I was hoping for, intelligent debate.
		
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Except that all you've done the entire thread is reiterate that you think H&H should set an example without explanation or expansion on that concept, with a few poorly reasoned platitudes thrown in for good measure.

You still haven't answered my question about whether they should also ban photos of riders in top hats...


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## horsebenny (14 March 2015)

JFTD said:



			Except that all you've done the entire thread is reiterate that you think H&H should set an example without explanation or expansion on that concept, with a few poorly reasoned platitudes thrown in for good measure.

You still haven't answered my question about whether they should also ban photos of riders in top hats...
		
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Of course not and that is totally missing the point (again). Sarah Jenkins is the Editor (by another name) and is therefore in a position of responsibility. It was a naive editorial decision.


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## DabDab (14 March 2015)

horsebenny said:



			Of course not and that is totally missing the point (again). Sarah Jenkins is the Editor (by another name) and is therefore in a position of responsibility. It was a naive editorial decision.
		
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So what about if (hypothetically), top hats were no longer permitted in competition, but they showed an historical picture of a dressage rider (for argument's sake this rider is also an editor), wearing one?


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## horsebenny (14 March 2015)

DabDab said:



			So what about if (hypothetically), top hats were no longer permitted in competition, but they showed an historical picture of a dressage rider (for argument's sake this rider is also an editor), wearing one?
		
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For me that would largely depend on the context. If it was truly 'historical' and added something to the piece then it would be appropriate (one assumes this hypothetical rider would also be wearing suitable footwear and not Ugg boots?). I trained as, and have been, a journalist on newspapers and magazines and for me this pic added nothing to the piece (except maybe a bit of self promotion for the Editor) and was something best kept in the archives for a piece on how not to dress to ride a stallion.


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## ycbm (14 March 2015)

horsebenny said:



			Totally, totally agree and that's what I was hoping for, intelligent debate. As I said early on, I don't care if Sarah Jenkins rides in thigh heels and a tiara I just don't think a publication like Horse and Hound should publish a picture of their most senior editorial staff member doing
		
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You wanted intelligent debate?. In fact you have not offered any debate at all. You have simply stated this point of view over and over and over again without putting forward a single reason to support that point of view.

Like most people on the thread, I disagree with you.


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## horsebenny (14 March 2015)

ycbm said:



			You wanted intelligent debate?. In fact you have not offered any debate at all. You have simply stated this point of view over and over and over again without putting forward a single reason to support that point of view.

Like most people on the thread, I disagree with you.
		
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I would disagree that most people disagree. Those who have chosen to be vocal are a tiny minority compared to those who have read the thread. Many of those, I suspect, don't reply because they don't want to put themselves in the firing line to be shouted down, which often happens on this forum. You have your opinion, I disagree with it.


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## Nancykitt (14 March 2015)

I have to say that I wasn't aware of who the editor was...I just pick up the magazine and read it, in my preferred order (news, letters, hunting stuff, etc etc). 
As far as the hat thing is concerned, yes, I don't really like to see pictures of hatless riders anywhere. But if we were to consider the number of photos of riders with hats compared to hatless in a publication like H&H, I'm sure that the proportion of hatless photos would be absolutely miniscule. It is very much the exception and not the norm and that's how it should be. So I'm not going to worry too much about a single photo, especially as no-one is putting a positive spin on it - ie, saying it's 'cool' to be hatless, or anything like that. 
Good points about banning hats that are regarded as 'unsafe' too. I would not personally choose to ride in a top hat or a Patey but the photos do not offend me in any way. 
I have a Charles Owen 'Fiona' hat for hunting and I love it but it will no longer be 'competition legal' soon. As I don't compete I will continue to wear it for hunting. Once people start to dictate what can and can't be worn outside competition regulations it's a slippery slope!


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## ycbm (14 March 2015)

horsebenny said:



			I would disagree that most people disagree. Those who have chosen to be vocal are a tiny minority compared to those who have read the thread. Many of those, I suspect, don't reply because they don't want to put themselves in the firing line to be shouted down, which often happens on this forum. You have your opinion, I disagree with it.
		
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For a journalist, you aren't very effective at debate, I'm afraid.  I said 'most people * on this thread*'  , not 'most people on this forum', which is how you have answered me. No-one has been shouted down on this thread.


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## DabDab (14 March 2015)

horsebenny said:



			For me that would largely depend on the context. If it was truly 'historical' and added something to the piece then it would be appropriate (one assumes this hypothetical rider would also be wearing suitable footwear and not Ugg boots?). I trained as, and have been, a journalist on newspapers and magazines and for me this pic added nothing to the piece (except maybe a bit of self promotion for the Editor) and was something best kept in the archives for a piece on how not to dress to ride a stallion.
		
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Oh ok I see - so you thought the photo was self absorbed and had little journalistic merit. You don't think any harm could come from the picture but it irritates you that someone could put themselves in the public eye in such a shallow and mindless way? 

And whether it does any damage or not, you prefer editors with more integrity?


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## ribbons (14 March 2015)

horsebenny said:



			I would disagree that most people disagree. Those who have chosen to be vocal are a tiny minority compared to those who have read the thread. Many of those, I suspect, don't reply because they don't want to put themselves in the firing line to be shouted down, which often happens on this forum. You have your opinion, I disagree with it.
		
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Why is it that when a poster gets more in the way of disagreement the reason is usually given that those who are in agreement, although numerous, dare not post, for fear of being bullied or shouted at.
I doubt that's true, although its an amusing idea.


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## horsebenny (14 March 2015)

ycbm said:



			For a journalist, you aren't very effective at debate, I'm afraid.  I said 'most people * on this thread*'  , not 'most people on this forum', which is how you have answered me. No-one has been shouted down on this thread.
		
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Wrong again I'm afraid.  I said most people who had read this tread as opposed to posting on it . That's very different to everyone on this Forum.  I haven't allowed myself to be shouted down on this forum (much to some people's evident frustration).


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## horsebenny (14 March 2015)

DabDab said:



			Oh ok I see - so you thought the photo was self absorbed and had little journalistic merit. You don't think any harm could come from the picture but it irritates you that someone could put themselves in the public eye in such a shallow and mindless way? 

And whether it does any damage or not, you prefer editors with more integrity?
		
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Partly right.  I don't think the photo should be published because it sets a bad example which someone in her position should be aware of. That is was published with no contextual merit does smack of vanity to me.


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## horsebenny (14 March 2015)

DabDab said:



			Oh ok I see - so you thought the photo was self absorbed and had little journalistic merit. You don't think any harm could come from the picture but it irritates you that someone could put themselves in the public eye in such a shallow and mindless way? 

And whether it does any damage or not, you prefer editors with more integrity?
		
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Partly right.  I don't think the photo should be published because it sets a bad example which someone in her position should be aware of. That is was published with no contextual merit does smack of vanity to me.


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## horsebenny (14 March 2015)

ribbons said:



			Why is it that when a poster gets more in the way of disagreement the reason is usually given that those who are in agreement, although numerous, dare not post, for fear of being bullied or shouted at.
I doubt that's true, although its an amusing idea.
		
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You might be right, but then again I might be...


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## RaposadeGengibre (14 March 2015)

horsebenny said:



			I'm perfectly happy for people to disagree with me but then get called things like 'hat nazi' just for having a different view.  I've seen it happen loads of times on this forum.  It's about time some people left the playground mentality behind.
		
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Of course "arrogant rot" sounds much better :lol:

If somebody keeps shoving opinion for a trivial matter (and to clarify straight away by "trivial" I mean an old photo of a hatless rider only)  despite the fact that majority is disagreeing, oh yes, its being hat nazi. imho obviously .


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## DabDab (14 March 2015)

horsebenny said:



			Partly right.  I don't think the photo should be published because it sets a bad example which someone in her position should be aware of. That is was published with no contextual merit does smack of vanity to me.
		
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Ok, in that case I just don't agree with you. I haven't seen the photo but would probably find it irritating too - a horse isn't proven to be safe just because someone gets on it without a hat so it's a bit of a pointless example. 

But I don't think it does any harm and I certainly wouldn't advocate a ban based on a bad journalistic decision (otherwise the media would soon be left with very little to print).


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## horsebenny (14 March 2015)

DabDab said:



			Ok, in that case I just don't agree with you. I haven't seen the photo but would probably find it irritating too - a horse isn't proven to be safe just because someone gets on it without a hat so it's a bit of a pointless example. 

But I don't think it does any harm and I certainly wouldn't advocate a ban based on a bad journalistic decision (otherwise the media would soon be left with very little to print).
		
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Good points and we agree to disagree.


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## horsebenny (14 March 2015)

DabDab said:



			Ok, in that case I just don't agree with you. I haven't seen the photo but would probably find it irritating too - a horse isn't proven to be safe just because someone gets on it without a hat so it's a bit of a pointless example. 

But I don't think it does any harm and I certainly wouldn't advocate a ban based on a bad journalistic decision (otherwise the media would soon be left with very little to print).
		
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Good points and we agree to disagree.


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## RaposadeGengibre (14 March 2015)

ribbons said:



			Why is it that when a poster gets more in the way of disagreement the reason is usually given that those who are in agreement, although numerous, dare not post, for fear of being bullied or shouted at.
I doubt that's true, although its an amusing idea.
		
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I am really perplexed now...
How anybody could be able to know whats peoples opinions and why they are not posting? Another question is how would you "shout" on a forum? :lol:
In my short life here I have seen quite a few threads where people was going "against the grain" without consequences .


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## EquiEquestrian556 (14 March 2015)

Very interesting thread.

I haven't seen the photo, and would probably find it quite unprofessional if I did, but we are all free spirits, and if Sarah Jenkins wishes to ride without a hat, then that's her decision, and I respect her. We have *no right* to tell others what to do, and what not to do with *their* own heads. Yes, there _are_ many scenarios that could of happened, the horse could of spooked or tripped, and she could of hit her head etc, but thankfully they* didn't* happen. 

Should H&H *not* post photos of this sort of thing? Personally I'd say no, as I don't think it's a regular occurrence, and *people must very silly to ride without a hat due to seeing a photo in H&H,* but that's just my personal opinion. 

I personally don't like seeing people out hunting with just a Patey on (no body protector or air jacket), or horses jumping stone walls without knee boots, but that's their choice and decision, and we must respect that.

I don't advocate riding without a hat, however it's your choice.


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## only_me (14 March 2015)

I think it's a bit much to expect HH to only publish photos that show the rider wearing a hat. As someone else has said, just because a publication publishes something doesn't mean that everyone will follow it like gospel! 

I rode hatless while working on safari. It doesn't mean I won't wear a hat at home! 

It's personal choice - you might think others are stupid for not wearing one but that's your opinion  
And for those who say the NHS will have to pick up the pieces - they have to do it for drunks, druggies, morbidly obese patients etc. so whats the difference?!


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## AmieeT (14 March 2015)

EquiEquestrian556 said:



			Very interesting thread.

I haven't seen the photo, and would probably find it quite unprofessional if I did, but we are all free spirits, and if Sarah Jenkins wishes to ride without a hat, then that's her decision, and I respect her. We have *no right* to tell others what to do, and what not to do with *their* own heads. Yes, there _are_ many scenarios that could of happened, the horse could of spooked or tripped, and she could of hit her head etc, but thankfully they* didn't* happen. 

Should H&H *not* post photos of this sort of thing? Personally I'd say no, as I don't think it's a regular occurrence, and *people must very silly to ride without a hat due to seeing a photo in H&H,* but that's just my personal opinion. 

I personally don't like seeing people out hunting with just a Patey on (no body protector or air jacket), or horses jumping stone walls without knee boots, but that's their choice and decision, and we must respect that.

I don't advocate riding without a hat, however it's your choice.
		
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Agree. 

Think this is OTT tbh. People that ride without a hat know the risk they take. Children should be well educated about the dangers and that responsibility lies with the parents and instructors. We are lucky to have a publication that advocates the use of a hat, considering that in a lot of other countries it's fairly uncommon to wear one.

Ax


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## SpringArising (14 March 2015)

only_me said:



			And for those who say the NHS will have to pick up the pieces - they have to do it for drunks, druggies, morbidly obese patients etc. so whats the difference?!
		
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The difference is that the things you have mentioned above are addictions. Not wearing a hat isn't an addiction, it's a choice.


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## Goldenstar (14 March 2015)

No they have not lost the plot .
They are not the health and safety executive they are a lifestyle magazine .
They cover safety issues all the time.
I am not so soft minded that a picture of someone on a horse in UGG boots makes me want to do commit such an act myself .
H and H is an adult magazine I wish to treated as an adult .


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## Goldenstar (14 March 2015)

No they have not lost the plot .
They are not the health and safety executive they are a lifestyle magazine .
They cover safety issues all the time.
I am not so soft minded that a picture of someone on a horse in UGG boots makes me want to do commit such an act myself .
H and H is an adult magazine I wish to treated as an adult .


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## only_me (14 March 2015)

SpringArising said:



			The difference is that the things you have mentioned above are addictions. Not wearing a hat isn't an addiction, it's a choice.
		
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People can choose to go out and drink themselves stupid, doesn't mean they are addicted. Morbidly obese people could exercise more, eat less. Yes druggies may ve addicted but what about the people who take uppers at a party to try? 

For those not addicted it is a choice - just like those who choose to not wear a hat.


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## JFTDWS (14 March 2015)

horsebenny said:



			Of course not and that is totally missing the point (again). Sarah Jenkins is the Editor (by another name) and is therefore in a position of responsibility. It was a naive editorial decision.
		
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I think you'll find that you're missing my point, actually.  If riding without proper head protection is irresponsible, and should not be shown in the media, why is it acceptable to show photos from competitions (of any sort) where improper protection is worn?  You can't have it all ways, and shout that everyone is missing your point...  We get your point - but it's not a very sophisticated line of argument...


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## teabiscuit (14 March 2015)

Whilst I disagree vehemently with the P irelli notion that wearing a hat means you've not trained your horse to the right standard, as long as the editor wasn't advocating hatless riding I don't see the problem.


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## horsebenny (14 March 2015)

JFTD said:



			I think you'll find that you're missing my point, actually.  If riding without proper head protection is irresponsible, and should not be shown in the media, why is it acceptable to show photos from competitions (of any sort) where improper protection is worn?  You can't have it all ways, and shout that everyone is missing your point...  We get your point - but it's not a very sophisticated line of argument...
		
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It's quite a simple point which I would've thought most people could understand even if they don't agree with it. Or so I thought...


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## JFTDWS (14 March 2015)

It's a very "simple" line of argument.  That's exactly the issue with it.


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## horsebenny (14 March 2015)

JFTD said:



			It's a very "simple" line of argument.  That's exactly the issue with it.
		
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No, that's the point of it.


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## JFTDWS (14 March 2015)

And there's absolutely no point in continuing this discussion if you are unwilling or unable to discuss beyond that point.


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## popsdosh (14 March 2015)

horsebenny said:



			I would disagree that most people disagree. Those who have chosen to be vocal are a tiny minority compared to those who have read the thread. Many of those, I suspect, don't reply because they don't want to put themselves in the firing line to be shouted down, which often happens on this forum. You have your opinion, I disagree with it.
		
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Of course it could not be that a large majority totally disagree with you. I have never found others are slow coming forward when they agree with a thread. I think you are just upset nobody agrees with you full stop.

Please explain what damage has that picture caused? Please try and answer it as trotting out the same old 'its irresponsible' line is wearing thin and frankly making you look stupid beyond belief. Plenty have asked the question and up till now you have refused to answer it in any way that makes sense . Do you wish to read a magazine that is censored ,please accept people are very capable of making up their own minds on this subject.


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## horsebenny (14 March 2015)

popsdosh said:



			Of course it could not be that a large majority totally disagree with you. I have never found others are slow coming forward when they agree with a thread. I think you are just upset nobody agrees with you full stop.
		
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That's nonsense. I don't care if people agree with me or not and you may be right that the vast majority disagree with me or I may be right that they don't. It is an emotive subject and as I know from PMs folk don't always want to put themselves in the firing line. I however don't give a damn.


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## popsdosh (14 March 2015)

horsebenny said:



			That's nonsense. I don't care if people agree with me or not and you may be right that the vast majority disagree with me or I may be right that they don't. It is an emotive subject and as I know from PMs folk don't always want to put themselves in the firing line. I however don't give a damn.
		
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Obviously !! Why is it an emotive subject? People just dont agree with your point of view !
 How old are you as you are acting like a spoilt teenager to be honest!  I guess your PMs are another fantasy.


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## SpringArising (14 March 2015)

popsdosh said:



			I think you are just upset nobody agrees with you full stop.
		
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I think that's a bit of a false statement. A few people have said it's very daft not to wear a hat; myself included.


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## horsebenny (14 March 2015)

popsdosh said:



			Obviously !! Why is it an emotive subject? People just dont agree with your point of view !
 How old are you as you are acting like a spoilt teenager to be honest!  I guess your PMs are another fantasy.
		
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And this personal attack is exactly why people don't post. I'm 50 so don't try to bully me, it won't work, sorry.


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## milliepops (14 March 2015)

popsdosh said:



			Of course it could not be that a large majority totally disagree with you. I have never found others are slow coming forward when they agree with a thread.
		
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Just chiming in as one who doesn't care either way about a picture of someone without a hat. I will nag my nearest and dearest to wear a hat when on a horse, but don't give two hoots about a magazine pic.

No need for any personal comments  but I'm one of the mystery silent readers of the thread so thought I'd add my 2p, for the avoidance of doubt as to my opinion.


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## popsdosh (14 March 2015)

SpringArising said:



			I think that's a bit of a false statement. A few people have said it's very daft not to wear a hat; myself included.
		
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I said I have no problem with wearing a hat(I wont ever let anybody ride without) but the OP wants H&H to be subject to conditions that are not logical or necessary.


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## horsebenny (14 March 2015)

popsdosh said:



			I said I have no problem with wearing a hat(I wont ever let anybody ride without) but the OP wants H&H to be subject to conditions that are not logical or necessary.
		
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I said it is irresponsible for them to publish a picture of the editor riding a stallion in Ugg boots and no hat...when did I say anything about illogical or unnecessary conditions??


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## popsdosh (14 March 2015)

horsebenny said:



			And this personal attack is exactly why people don't post. I'm 50 so don't try to bully me, it won't work, sorry.
		
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 You still have not answered the question though ,are you a politician maybe trying to avoid the answer, every other poster has put forward a logical argument ,you have failed to even try so far! I will leave you to it as I take exception to you accusing me of bullying.  Please look closer to home with what you are trying to force H&H to do!


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## horsebenny (14 March 2015)

popsdosh said:



			You still have not answered the question though ,are you a politician maybe trying to avoid the answer, every other poster has put forward a logical argument ,you have failed to even try so far! I will leave you to it as I take exception to you accusing me of bullying.  Please look closer to home with what you are trying to force H&H to do!
		
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I'm not trying to 'force' Horse and Hound to do anything, I have an opinion of what is appropriate or not, as do you.


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## YorksG (14 March 2015)

horsebenny said:



			I'm not trying to 'force' Horse and Hound to do anything, I have an opinion of what is appropriate or not, as do you.
		
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What is your opinion of H&H showing pictures of people wearing top hats or Pateys while riding horses?


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## armchair_rider (14 March 2015)

JFTD said:



			I think you'll find that you're missing my point, actually.  If riding without proper head protection is irresponsible, and should not be shown in the media, why is it acceptable to show photos from competitions (of any sort) where improper protection is worn?  You can't have it all ways, and shout that everyone is missing your point...  We get your point - but it's not a very sophisticated line of argument...
		
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Well I get your point and I agree entirely. Either it is acceptable for a magazine to contain photos of people riding without hats or it isn't. If it isn't acceptable then the 'must wear a hat' rule should apply to everyone appearing in the magazine be it editorial staff, random people out hunting or famous riders. Apart from much else people are far more likely to be swayed by a picture of, for example, Mary King riding without a helmet then they are by a picture of the H&H editor doing the same thing.


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## horsebenny (14 March 2015)

YorksG said:



			What is your opinion of H&H showing pictures of people wearing top hats or Pateys while riding horses?
		
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As I've previously said it depends on the context. I personally think appropriate hats and footwear should always be worn but obviously people don't always do so and that is reflected in the magazine (less so in other equestrian titles I might add). However, in the picture concerned it was the Editor, riding a stallion, wearing UGG boots and no hat. For me that's a perfect storm of factors that mean the picture shouldn't have been used.


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## YorksG (14 March 2015)

horsebenny said:



			As I've previously said it depends on the context. I personally think appropriate hats and footwear should always be worn but obviously people don't always do so and that is reflected in the magazine (less so in other equestrian titles I might add). However, in the picture concerned it was the Editor, riding a stallion, wearing UGG boots and no hat. For me that's a perfect storm of factors that mean the picture shouldn't have been used.
		
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I can see that Ugg boots are offensive in any context, but fail to see how riding a stallion in a dressage test, while wearing a top hat (presumably the "correct" context) is any safer, therefore more appropriate, than the picture shown.


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## JFTDWS (14 March 2015)

YorksG said:



			I can see that Ugg boots are offensive in any context...
		
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*snorts*


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## Nancykitt (15 March 2015)

Just had another look at H&H...to be honest, that picture didn't even register with me so I'm struggling to think that it would be a bad influence on younger riders. But something I did notice was that on another page there's a photo of a bloke riding in a cowboy hat. Presumably this is OK because it'a appropriate for the 'context' (ie, Western riding) even though the hat would be pretty useful in the event of a fall? That's the bit I have trouble with. Where is the line drawn, exactly, and what is the rationale for thia?


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## Beausmate (15 March 2015)

Why does riding a stallion in particular, make it worse?  Not just riding with no hat and ugg boots on her feet, no, riding a STALLION with no hat and ugg boots on her feet.

Come on H&H, what on earth were you thinking?  Who'd have thought such an innocuous publication could hit such depths?  

That's it, the end of civilisation as we know it....


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## hackneylass2 (15 March 2015)

In the end it will always come down to survival of the fittest.  If the nannying we have here now gets much worse no one will be able to think for themselves in future generations.  

As for riding stallions, should they not be kept in a cage and thrown raw meat twice a week....shudder.


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## OldNag (15 March 2015)

hackneylass2 said:



			In the end it will always come down to survival of the fittest.  If the nannying we have here now gets much worse no one will be able to think for themselves in future generations.  

As for riding stallions, should they not be kept in a cage and thrown raw meat twice a week....shudder.
		
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No you let them out twice a week and they go and catch their own meat.


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## horsebenny (15 March 2015)

OldNag said:



			No you let them out twice a week and they go and catch their own meat. 

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This is just silly.  Stallions ARE a different matter. I despair of this forum..


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## horsebenny (15 March 2015)

Beausmate said:



			Why does riding a stallion in particular, make it worse?  Not just riding with no hat and ugg boots on her feet, no, riding a STALLION with no hat and ugg boots on her feet.

Come on H&H, what on earth were you thinking?  Who'd have thought such an innocuous publication could hit such depths?  

That's it, the end of civilisation as we know it.... 

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Sarcastic yes, helpful to the debate no. Anything useful to add? Or just here to take the p?


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## OldNag (15 March 2015)

horsebenny said:



			This is just silly.  Stallions ARE a different matter. I despair of this forum..
		
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Erm they aren't all flesh-eating monsters. Bit of a sweeping generalisation.

 But back to the original point... I would rather magazines did not print pics of riders riding hatless.  I would hope that readers did not think it makes it a good idea to ride hatless but I think it gives the impression that it is OK.


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## AmieeT (15 March 2015)

So you're saying if the editor were riding a mare or a gelding you wouldn't have found it so disappointing? 

I think that's the point people are trying to make.


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## pennyturner (15 March 2015)

horsebenny said:



			This is just silly.  Stallions ARE a different matter. I despair of this forum..
		
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HB, you're just so wrong.  Stallions are just horses.  Half my herd are entire , and live/work happily alongside geldings.  They share their hay piles, nuzzle each other affectionately, pass other horses quietly on hacks and put up with all manner of things which most horses wouldn't.  They even do the baby rides at the local fete!
The 3 being sat on after a ride in this photo are entire (ignore the no-hat thing for a moment if you can - this was after a long, fast ride, after the kids had removed hats and were relaxing and talking).  They're kind, reliable and utterly bombproof.  I'm pretty sure that the rest of the world, where stallions are routinely used as working horses would provide similar references.







Off topic, but this was a good example of herd-training.  The pony on the far end whilst quiet is only 4, and initially a little unsure about being mounted bareback and expected to stand still (a spontaneous whim from one of the children).  However, because his more experienced buddies just continued eating their hay, it took a matter of seconds for him to relax.  This is how they end up bombproof!


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## ribbons (15 March 2015)

horsebenny said:



			This is just silly.  Stallions ARE a different matter. I despair of this forum..
		
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I know many stallions, correctly kept, that are far more trustworthy than the many unruly, overweight, underworked geldings that are kept like pets.

Not that it makes a difference to wearing a hat, except in op's opinion.

The fact remains, riding any horse is risky, its sensible to wear a hat but I think the bee in your bonnet is getting a bit OTT.

As someone else said, all this H&S is actually becoming detrimental. Its no use relying on magazines to learn how to look after your self, in any walk of life.
I suspect we already have a huge chunk of the population incapable of thinking for themselves.


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## ycbm (15 March 2015)

horsebenny said:



			This is just silly.  Stallions ARE a different matter. I despair of this forum..
		
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Have you ridden any? The one I rode for two years was no different from any other horse, easier than many. You were looking for context and that was the context for that photo, as we have already been told very early in the thread by someone, that the horse was sweet and kind and that both the owner and the fashion victim in the ugg boots felt perfectly ok to do what they did


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## ycbm (15 March 2015)

ribbons said:



			As someone else said, all this H&S is actually becoming detrimental. Its no use relying on magazines to learn how to look after your self, in any walk of life.
I suspect we already have a huge chunk of the population incapable of thinking for themselves.
		
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Have you tried using a busy pelican crossing recently?  People stand like robots while the man is red and the road is completely devoid of cars, and the moment the man turns green they step out even if someone has jumped a red light and a car is about to mow them down.


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## Bede (15 March 2015)

Lovely pic pennyturner.

Some articles in H&H are instructive; how things should be done.
Most of the content is news; things that other people have done.
I never get the two confused, and would be surprised if anyone else did


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## ribbons (15 March 2015)

pennyturner said:



			HB, you're just so wrong.  Stallions are just horses.  Half my herd are entire , and live/work happily alongside geldiings.  They share their hay piles, nuzzle each other affectionately, pass other horses quietly on hacks and put up with all manner of things which most horses wouldn't.  They even do the baby rides at the local fete!
The 3 being sat on after a ride in this photo are entire (ignore the no-hat thing for a moment if you can - this was after a long, fast ride, after the kids had removed hats and were relaxing and talking).  They're kind, reliable and utterly bombproof.  I'm pretty sure that the rest of the world, where stallions are routinely used as working horses would provide similar references.







Off topic, but this was a good example of herd-training.  The pony on the far end whilst quiet is only 4, and initially a little unsure about being mounted bareback and expected to stand still (a spontaneous whim from one of the children).  However, because his more experienced buddies just continued eating their hay, it took a matter of seconds for him to relax.  This is how they end up bombproof!
		
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You are going to be in such trouble now. OP is going to give you what for, Posting on a public forum a picture like that.
Two of those girls are HATLESS !!!!!
Not to mention a lack of saddles and bridles, AND ON STALLIONS.


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## pennyturner (15 March 2015)

ribbons said:



			You are going to be in such trouble now. OP is going to give you what for, Posting on a public forum a picture like that.
Two of those girls are HATLESS !!!!!
Not to mention a lack of saddles and bridles, AND ON STALLIONS.  

Click to expand...


I know, and if you look carefully, you can see they're just about to EAT the elderly gelding in the middle!!


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## horsebenny (15 March 2015)

AmieeT said:



			So you're saying if the editor were riding a mare or a gelding you wouldn't have found it so disappointing? 

I think that's the point people are trying to make.
		
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As I have repeatedly said it was a perfect storm of factors but my main point is suitable foot and headwear which I, and I assume others, learnt as a Pony Club basic.  All horses are unpredictable but arguably stallions more so.


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## horsebenny (15 March 2015)

ribbons said:



			I know many stallions, correctly kept, that are far more trustworthy than the many unruly, overweight, underworked geldings that are kept like pets.

Not that it makes a difference to wearing a hat, except in op's opinion.

The fact remains, riding any horse is risky, its sensible to wear a hat but I think the bee in your bonnet is getting a bit OTT.

As someone else said, all this H&S is actually becoming detrimental. Its no use relying on magazines to learn how to look after your self, in any walk of life.
I suspect we already have a huge chunk of the population incapable of thinking for themselves.
		
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So are you saying that no-one in a position if authority has a responsibility to set a good example?


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## horsebenny (15 March 2015)

ribbons said:



			You are going to be in such trouble now. OP is going to give you what for, Posting on a public forum a picture like that.
Two of those girls are HATLESS !!!!!
Not to mention a lack of saddles and bridles, AND ON STALLIONS.  

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Calm down Ribbons you really do need to try to keep up with the debate. If Penny a turner wants to allow her children (I am assuming that they ARE her children or that the children's parents are aware they are riding hatless and are OK with that) then that us her choice. I think she is wrong but she is aware of the consequences and prepared to take that risk on behalf of the children. To me it doesn't set a good example as ALL horses and even ponies can be unpredictable. I would expect a professional yard to insist on proper hats and footwear.


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## Nancykitt (15 March 2015)

ribbons said:



			I know many stallions, correctly kept, that are far more trustworthy than the many unruly, overweight, underworked geldings that are kept like pets.

Not that it makes a difference to wearing a hat, except in op's opinion.

The fact remains, riding any horse is risky, its sensible to wear a hat but I think the bee in your bonnet is getting a bit OTT.

As someone else said, all this H&S is actually becoming detrimental. Its no use relying on magazines to learn how to look after your self, in any walk of life.
I suspect we already have a huge chunk of the population incapable of thinking for themselves.
		
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This. 

First of all, the stallions that come out with the hunt are incredibly mannerly. Well-behaved and sensible stallions definitely do exist.
Secondly, would it really have been more acceptable if the rider had been on a mare or gelding? What a bizarre thought. I would rather ride the Friesian stallion that comes out with our hunt than some of the crazy mares and geldings that make an appearance from time to time. 

Lastly, we give young people little credit if we think that seeing a single, small photo of a hatless rider, amongst hundreds of pictures of riders with hats, will influence them to the extent that they will make a choice to put themselves at risk. There are many, many risks that young people are exposed to that are nothing to do with riding. At some point they have to make a choice; education is not about hiding risks, it's about confronting them and having a sensible discussion.


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## ribbons (15 March 2015)

horsebenny said:



			So are you saying that no-one in a position if authority has a responsibility to set a good example?
		
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Since when has a magazine editor been in a position of authority, other than to their staff.


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## horsebenny (15 March 2015)

Nancykitt said:



			This. 

First of all, the stallions that come out with the hunt are incredibly mannerly. Well-behaved and sensible stallions definitely do exist.
Secondly, would it really have been more acceptable if the rider had been on a mare or gelding? What a bizarre thought. I would rather ride the Friesian stallion that comes out with our hunt than some of the crazy mares and geldings that make an appearance from time to time. 

Lastly, we give young people little credit if we think that seeing a single, small photo of a hatless rider, amongst hundreds of pictures of riders with hats, will influence them to the extent that they will make a choice to put themselves at risk. There are many, many risks that young people are exposed to that are nothing to do with riding. At some point they have to make a choice; education is not about hiding risks, it's about confronting them and having a sensible discussion.
		
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The point is as a person in authority as the editor of horse and hound is she should know better. And yes, I do think she is sending a message that it's OK to disregard all the teaching of responsible instructors and the Pony Club. I have, for the record, known many stallions, some reasonably quiet some butters. I have also known a normally docile gelding suddenly take fright and bolt. No matter what anyone says, the fact is horses are living,breathing creatures and therefore unpredictable.


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## horsebenny (15 March 2015)

ribbons said:



			Since when has a magazine editor been in a position of authority, other than to their staff.
		
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Are you being sarcastic? Clearly the editor of Horse and Hound is in a position of authority. Or are you saying what Horse and Hound says and does doesn't matter in the equestrian community?


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## ribbons (15 March 2015)

horsebenny said:



			Calm down Ribbons you really do need to try to keep up with the debate. If Penny a turner wants to allow her children (I am assuming that they ARE her children or that the children's parents are aware they are riding hatless and are OK with that) then that us her choice. I think she is wrong but she is aware of the consequences and prepared to take that risk on behalf of the children. To me it doesn't set a good example as ALL horses and even ponies can be unpredictable. I would expect a professional yard to insist on proper hats and footwear.
		
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You are funny, me calm down?

There is actually no debate. 

My tongue in cheek post clearly sailed straight over your head.


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## ribbons (15 March 2015)

horsebenny said:



			Are you being sarcastic? Clearly the editor of Horse and Hound is in a position of authority. Or are you saying what Horse and Hound says and does doesn't matter in the equestrian community?
		
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I think you are muddling up authority with influence.
No magazine editor has any authority over me or any other member of public, come to think of it, no influence either.

I thought you were a journalist, isn't understanding of basic language a prerequisite.


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## horsebenny (15 March 2015)

ribbons said:



			I think you are muddling up authority with influence.
No magazine editor has any authority over me or any other member of public, come to think of it, no influence either.

I thought you were a journalist, isn't understanding of basic language a prerequisite.
		
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Yes she has influence and also authority. Look it up.


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## horsebenny (15 March 2015)

ribbons said:



			I think you are muddling up authority with influence.
No magazine editor has any authority over me or any other member of public, come to think of it, no influence either.

I thought you were a journalist, isn't understanding of basic language a prerequisite.
		
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And you didn't answer. Do you think what Horse and Hound says does is of no consequence in the equestrian community?


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## JFTDWS (15 March 2015)

horsebenny said:



			Yes she has influence and also authority. Look it up.
		
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You need a better dictionary.


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## horsebenny (15 March 2015)

JFTD said:



			You need a better dictionary.
		
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Very smart! She determines what goes into the magazine therefore she has authority.


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## JFTDWS (15 March 2015)

horsebenny said:



			Very smart! She determines what goes into the magazine therefore she has authority.
		
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Over the content of the magazine - which may, or may not, give her influence over the reader.  Not authority - she cannot make a reader ride hatless, however hard she might try.


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## horsebenny (15 March 2015)

What this thread has demonstrated to me is that the self a
Pointed forum 'experts' clearly know far less than they profess to. A very wise horsewoman of my youth once said of the equestrian community 'she who shouts loudest knows least'


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## horsebenny (15 March 2015)

JFTD said:



			Over the content of the magazine - which may, or may not, give her influence over the reader.  Not authority - she cannot make a reader ride hatless, however hard she might try.
		
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But she had the authority to authorise a picture demonstrating that to be published.


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## YorksG (15 March 2015)

YorksG said:



			I can see that Ugg boots are offensive in any context, but fail to see how riding a stallion in a dressage test, while wearing a top hat (presumably the "correct" context) is any safer, therefore more appropriate, than the picture shown.
		
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hb please can you address this point, I think you must have missed it


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## horsebenny (15 March 2015)

YorksG said:



			hb please can you address this point, I think you must have missed it 

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I personally don't think it is any safer and I am pleased to see Carl Hester and Charlotte Dujardin leading the way in changing that and there are fewer and fewer examples in the magazine. As I have said, my main point is that it was wrong for the Editor to publish a picture of herself in no hat and Ugg boots giving the implicit message that it's OK.


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## YorksG (15 March 2015)

horsebenny said:



			I personally don't think it is any safer and I am pleased to see Carl Hester and Charlotte Dujardin leading the way in changing that and there are fewer and fewer examples in the magazine. As I have said, my main point is that it was wrong for the Editor to publish a picture of herself in no hat and Ugg boots giving the implicit message that it's OK.
		
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I think more people will be influenced by international riders, than by the editor of any magazine. Tbh your objection is looking somewhat personal, rather than a rational objection.


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## horsebenny (15 March 2015)

YorksG said:



			I think more people will be influenced by international riders, than by the editor of any magazine. Tbh your objection is looking somewhat personal, rather than a rational objection.
		
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Honestly, it's not personal. I don't care what she wears in her personal life (I said she could wear 'high heels and a tiara' for all I care in an earlier post) but in her position as Editor and in charge of what goes into the magazine she should know better.


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## horsebenny (15 March 2015)

Thanks everyone for a lively debate, nothing anyone has said has changed my view and I still think it was wrong for the picture to be published. It's a shame some people resort to sarcasm and name calling in place of a formed view but I guess that will always be the way in an open forum. Cheers.


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## OldNag (15 March 2015)

horsebenny said:



			Thanks everyone for a lively debate, nothing anyone has said has changed my view and I still think it was wrong for the picture to be published. It's a shame some people resort to sarcasm and name calling in place of a formed view but I guess that will always be the way in an open forum. Cheers.
		
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Name calling?  Haven't noticed any?

I don't have a problem with sarcasm on a forum, it's to be expected. 

My own view is that it's wrong to have a picture of a hatless rider, but I also think that the fact she's riding a stallion is immaterial and stallions are not inherently more dangerous to ride than anything else.


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## ycbm (15 March 2015)

There are downsides to wearing a hat. Many people find them uncomfortable, and if you do a decent amount of work, they make your head sweat and your hair sticky even in winter. It is legal for people to ride without one, and if they choose not to, they are as entitled to in my opinion, then they are also equally as entitled to see pictures of people in a magazine doing the same thing as anyone else who pays the newsagent for a copy.

We are, after all, the only country in the world where anything like a majority of rider wear a safety helmet the majority of the time they ride.


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## armchair_rider (15 March 2015)

I don't think there's been any name calling, or indeed bullying as was suggested a few pages ago, a fair bit of sarcasm admittedly but I'd be quite worried about an HHO thread where there wasn't any. Still if the OP does feel victimised she can  complain to the forum admins.

What a nice picture Penny Turner.

On the stallion thing, all horses can be unpredictable, and I don't think it's any more dangerous riding a well behaved stallion than it is riding a well behaved mare or gelding. Riding any horse hatless and wearing ugg boots is pretty daft.


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## Rollin (15 March 2015)

ycbm said:



			There are downsides to wearing a hat. Many people find them uncomfortable, and if you do a decent amount of work, they make your head sweat and your hair sticky even in winter. It is legal for people to ride without one, and if they choose not to, they are as entitled in my opinion, to see pictures of people in a magazine doing the same thing as anyone else who pays the newsagent for a copy.

We are, after all, the only country in the world where anything like a majority of rider wear a safety helmet the majority of the time they ride.
		
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I am pleased you make that point.  Riding in France in summer with a helmet is a very unpleasant experience.  I NEVER ride without a hat I know plenty of people who NEVER ride with one.

Most French equestrian magazines will feature riders without hats for some of their articles.


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## popsdosh (15 March 2015)

horsebenny said:



			What this thread has demonstrated to me is that the self a
Pointed forum 'experts' clearly know far less than they profess to. A very wise horsewoman of my youth once said of the equestrian community 'she who shouts loudest knows least'
		
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Says a lot about you then!!!!


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## ribbons (15 March 2015)

horsebenny said:



			What this thread has demonstrated to me is that the self a
Pointed forum 'experts' clearly know far less than they profess to. A very wise horsewoman of my youth once said of the equestrian community 'she who shouts loudest knows least'
		
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Interesting saying your wise horsewoman used.

As its a forum and we can't hear the volume we must interpret it to be who bangs on about their point the most.

Looking back over this thread, its apparent who is shouting the loudest.


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## fburton (15 March 2015)

horsebenny said:



			As I have repeatedly said it was a perfect storm of factors but my main point is suitable foot and headwear which I, and I assume others, learnt as a Pony Club basic.
		
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Much better to dress safely, I agree. However, one can get away with less than ideal on odd occasions without making a habit of it. In the past I have caught loose racehorses (3 at Hereford) wearing totally unsuitable footwear (I won't say what!).




			All horses are unpredictable but arguably stallions more so.
		
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I'm not sure that is true - at least, it hasn't been my experience. Arguably stallions are _more_ predictable in some situations.


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## applecart14 (16 March 2015)

pennyturner said:



			HB, you're just so wrong.  Stallions are just horses.  Half my herd are entire , and live/work happily alongside geldings.  They share their hay piles, nuzzle each other affectionately, pass other horses quietly on hacks and put up with all manner of things which most horses wouldn't.  They even do the baby rides at the local fete!
The 3 being sat on after a ride in this photo are entire (ignore the no-hat thing for a moment if you can - this was after a long, fast ride, after the kids had removed hats and were relaxing and talking).  They're kind, reliable and utterly bombproof.  I'm pretty sure that the rest of the world, where stallions are routinely used as working horses would provide similar references.







Off topic, but this was a good example of herd-training.  The pony on the far end whilst quiet is only 4, and initially a little unsure about being mounted bareback and expected to stand still (a spontaneous whim from one of the children).  However, because his more experienced buddies just continued eating their hay, it took a matter of seconds for him to relax.  This is how they end up bombproof!
		
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The photo above is in mho indicative of those that think 'nothing will happen to them'.  It takes a split second for a horse to change from calmly eating hay to doing a full blown shy, even the most bomb proof of horses will react, its ingrained into them, its nature and this is something that CANNOT be changed, no matter how bomb proof a horse is.  They are flight animals. 

In the same way big cats will sometimes reach the end of their tether after years of captivity attacking their owners, elephants will storm marquees 'after losing the plot', and dogs will suddenly turn on their masters.  At the end of the day no animal is 100% reliable and cannot be expected to be.  I know you can't compare big cats to horses, but you get what I'm saying.

I used to walk down the field years ago and vault on my horse hatless and ride back in nothing more than a headcollar, but I was young and very naïve.  Amazing how quickly a head injury will change your perspective on hatless riders.

They look a nice bunch of ponies by the way.  My friend has a stallion and it acts just like a gelding, soft as butter, and very kind and sensible x


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## SpringArising (16 March 2015)

applecart14 said:



			The photo above is in mho indicative of those that think 'nothing will happen to them'.  It takes a split second for a horse to change from calmly eating hay to doing a full blown shy, even the most bomb proof of horses will react, its ingrained into them, its nature and this is something that CANNOT be changed, no matter how bomb proof a horse is.  They are flight animals.
		
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I agree.


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## Equi (16 March 2015)

I'm not a hat nazi but I cringe when I see a toddler up on a big horse bareback no hat for a photo.


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## pennyturner (16 March 2015)

Horses are flight animals, but they can learn to accept just about anything, so how 'bombproof' they are is a product of their environment.

In the above photo, they're at home, a bit tired, and completely relaxed, even by our standards, (and believe me these ponies can be ridden by novices through a field full of pigs, or past an active crow-scarer - we've done both). 
However, that doesn't mean I'm unaware of how unpredictable horses can be.  Dressage markers, would probably scare them witless.


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## ycbm (16 March 2015)

The photo above is in mho indicative of those that think 'nothing will happen to them'.
		
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Well the fact is that the overwhelming odds are that nothing _will_ happen to them. I am one of the very, very, very small percentage of riders who would probably be dead if I'd left my hat at home one hot day, as I often used to. And I never ride without one now. But I still know that the vast, vast majority of riders in the world don't wear hats, and only a tiny, tiny percentage of those will get a head injury which a hat would have saved them from. So I never look down on people who've made a conscious decision not to wear a hat, or force their child to.  It is possible to worry too much.


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## SpringArising (16 March 2015)

ycbm said:



			It is possible to worry too much.
		
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Worry too much? Yes. Be too safety conscious? No.


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## pennyturner (16 March 2015)

ycbm said:



			Well the fact is that the overwhelming odds are that nothing _will_ happen to them. I am one of the very, very, very small percentage of riders who would probably be dead if I'd left my hat at home one hot day, as I often used to. And I never ride without one now. But I still know that the vast, vast majority of riders in the world don't wear hats, and only a tiny, tiny percentage of those will get a head injury which a hat would have saved them from. So I never look down on people who've made a conscious decision not to wear a hat, or force their child to.  It is possible to worry too much.
		
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Very true.  Otherwise no-one would allow their child to ride, ever.  It's also a fact that the worst head injury I ever got was as a direct result of wearing a hat - I came off in such a way as the back of my head being pushed forward by the hat as I rolled gave me whiplash!  

People are very poor at judging risk.  If one of those ponies pulled back, the kids in the most danger would be the ones behind them on the ground... which is statistically where you're most likely to be when your horse kills you!


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## littleshetland (16 March 2015)

ycbm said:



			Well the fact is that the overwhelming odds are that nothing _will_ happen to them. I am one of the very, very, very small percentage of riders who would probably be dead if I'd left my hat at home one hot day, as I often used to. And I never ride without one now. But I still know that the vast, vast majority of riders in the world don't wear hats, and only a tiny, tiny percentage of those will get a head injury which a hat would have saved them from. So I never look down on people who've made a conscious decision not to wear a hat, or force their child to.  It is possible to worry too much.
		
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^^ this.
I absolutely agree - it is possible to worry to much - I'm in my 50's now and only just recently started riding every time out with my hat on since I acquired a three year old.  Over the years I've ridden a lot without my hat on - fallen off a few times, and injured plenty of other bits of me, but luckily I suppose, not my head.  I actually like riding without a hat.  I seem to remember spending most of the 1980's not wearing a seatbelt in the car, mucking about in boats in deep water without a life belt on for a lot my childhood, riding motorbikes without a helmet in countries where the law allows you to do this.  I am mindful of a friend of mine who was tragically killed whilst standing on a pavement in the high street, when an out of control car mounted the pavement and mowed him down.    Sure, I think as we get older we get more 'sensible' and perhaps our sense of self preservation becomes more honed, but we must try not to let this tip over into paranoia.


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## blitznbobs (16 March 2015)

I have fractured my skull twice in my life once coming off a loopy horse( skull cap in place) and once getting out of the bath ( no skull cap ) but perhaps I should wear my hat in the bath too&#128540;


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## ycbm (16 March 2015)

blitznbobs said:



			I have fractured my skull twice in my life once coming off a loopy horse( skull cap in place) and once getting out of the bath but perhaps I should wear my hat in the bath too&#55357;&#56860;
		
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Definitely!


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## littleshetland (16 March 2015)

blitznbobs said:



			I have fractured my skull twice in my life once coming off a loopy horse( skull cap in place) and once getting out of the bath ( no skull cap ) but perhaps I should wear my hat in the bath too&#55357;&#56860;
		
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Oh dear! according to stats, most accidents occur in the home apparently..... I do think how we perceive risk is quite a personal issue - it seems to vary a lot from person to person and country to country.  I've lost quite a few friends over the years to cancer who have never smoked or drank (I do both), and one or two to highly improbable accidents (I'm still here...)  It's a real balance between enjoying life and taking the odd risk and keeping ourselves safe.....but I do find myself becoming quite cross when I see people foisting their paranoia upon young people - but I suppose it's all about perception and personal experience of yourself and those around you.


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## Arzada (16 March 2015)

blitznbobs said:



			I have fractured my skull twice in my life once coming off a loopy horse( skull cap in place) and once getting out of the bath ( no skull cap ) but perhaps I should wear my hat in the bath too&#55357;&#56860;
		
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And hi viz so the emergency services can locate you.


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## armchair_rider (16 March 2015)

blitznbobs said:



			I have fractured my skull twice in my life once coming off a loopy horse( skull cap in place) and once getting out of the bath ( no skull cap ) but perhaps I should wear my hat in the bath too!
		
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Arzada said:



			And hi viz so the emergency services can locate you.
		
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And waterproof, non slip shoes?


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## Arizahn (16 March 2015)

armchair_rider said:



			And waterproof, non slip shoes?
		
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And one of those GPS locater things!


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## D66 (17 March 2015)

I have made use of my hat in a fall, but have damaged both knees in two separate incidents, should all riders wear knee pads?


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## Aoibhinn (17 March 2015)

IMO it is down to the person riding to choose what they want to do. It is a high risk sport already so I think that wearing a hat is a sensible habit to have. Saying that, it also depends on the horse. With my own horse, I wouldn't dream of riding him without a hat AND body protector but I would often ride my pony in a head collar and leadrope bareback without a hat as she is more trustworthy.


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## FairyLights (17 March 2015)

I used to ride hatless and with the pony wearing a headcollar. no saddle. now I'm grown up I wear a hat to snell standard hi viz a hat cam and a gps locator [incase I come off in the woods or moors] the horse is saddled and bridled. Ignorance isnt bliss. 
I also wear a seat belt when in a vehicle, didnt used to , used to zoom along the motorway unbelted with dad driving. Times have changed we now know better.


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## SpringArising (17 March 2015)

Digger66 said:



			should all riders wear knee pads?
		
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You can't give yourself a fatal brain haemorrhage by knocking your knee. I don't know why these posts always bring out sarcasm and immaturity in people.


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## pennyturner (17 March 2015)

SpringArising said:



			You can't give yourself a fatal brain haemorrhage by knocking your knee. I don't know why these posts always bring out sarcasm and immaturity in people.
		
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Because it's funny, and most of us enjoy reading it.  Lighten up!  
(and you can give yourself an embolism by knocking your knee, which would be just as fatal as your hypothetical head injury)


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## ronakyra63 (17 March 2015)

my friend didn't wear a hat for years despite us saying she should - it's ok she said - just a quiet pony & cobs - no problem.....until the day on a quiet offroad country lane, the quiet pony spooked, she fell off and hit her head. She now can't walk properly, has lost her full mental capacity (equivalent to age 7/8 now) and is unable to look after her children herself. Her husband has had to give up work to look after her and the family and they now can't afford to keep the quiet pony & cobs. So photos of 'no hat' riders are sending the wrong signal. You don't need to be on a stallion, a TB or be racing, hunting or eventing to have an accident. No need to stop the sports but just take the precautions you can.....it's not a question of nanny state here....you can't stop all accidents but you can try to minimise the severity of injury. Her life and that of her family has been devastated and medical opinion was that if she'd had a hat on, she'd have got up with nothing worse than a mild concussion......


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## horsebenny (17 March 2015)

ronakyra63 said:



			my friend didn't wear a hat for years despite us saying she should - it's ok she said - just a quiet pony & cobs - no problem.....until the day on a quiet offroad country lane, the quiet pony spooked, she fell off and hit her head. She now can't walk properly, has lost her full mental capacity (equivalent to age 7/8 now) and is unable to look after her children herself. Her husband has had to give up work to look after her and the family and they now can't afford to keep the quiet pony & cobs. So photos of 'no hat' riders are sending the wrong signal. You don't need to be on a stallion, a TB or be racing, hunting or eventing to have an accident. No need to stop the sports but just take the precautions you can.....it's not a question of nanny state here....you can't stop all accidents but you can try to minimise the severity of injury. Her life and that of her family has been devastated and medical opinion was that if she'd had a hat on, she'd have got up with nothing worse than a mild concussion......
		
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That is my view too and has been all through this thread. I too don't think it's a subject for levity and sarcasm but that's all too prevalent 
here.


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## Wagtail (17 March 2015)

I have ridden without a hat in the past, even as recent as 8 years ago. But no more. In fact I very rarely even handle horses on the ground without wearing my riding hat. I would probably be dead if I hadn't have been wearing it one day when unloading a mare from the lorry.


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## Serianas (17 March 2015)

pennyturner said:



			HB, you're just so wrong.  Stallions are just horses.  Half my herd are entire , and live/work happily alongside geldings.  They share their hay piles, nuzzle each other affectionately, pass other horses quietly on hacks and put up with all manner of things which most horses wouldn't.  They even do the baby rides at the local fete!
The 3 being sat on after a ride in this photo are entire (ignore the no-hat thing for a moment if you can - this was after a long, fast ride, after the kids had removed hats and were relaxing and talking).  They're kind, reliable and utterly bombproof.  I'm pretty sure that the rest of the world, where stallions are routinely used as working horses would provide similar references.







Off topic, but this was a good example of herd-training.  The pony on the far end whilst quiet is only 4, and initially a little unsure about being mounted bareback and expected to stand still (a spontaneous whim from one of the children).  However, because his more experienced buddies just continued eating their hay, it took a matter of seconds for him to relax.  This is how they end up bombproof!
		
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Nothing to add on the hat debate, because I wouldnt not wear one (though i had a photoshoot on ratbag without one and bricked it the entire time... all of five mins) but is Pennyturner is the horse on the left at least part NF? he looks alot like Jack


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## oldie48 (17 March 2015)

yes, how many of us wear a hat when handling horses, or always wear gloves and proper footwear? But the OP was suggesting the H&H had "lost the plot" by showing a rather small old photo of someone riding a horse without proper footwear or a hat which was relevant to the article. It didn't start out as a thread about whether we should or should not wear a hat and this has tended to get lost. I am an adult capable of making my choices and in common with most people, I suspect, I am not  influenced by a small photo or a full page spread for that matter! I just wish someone would  invent a hat that protected my hairstyle as well as my head. I'd spend a lot of money on that!! 



Wagtail said:



			I have ridden without a hat in the past, even as recent as 8 years ago. But no more. In fact I very rarely even handle horses on the ground without wearing my riding hat. I would probably be dead if I hadn't have been wearing it one day when unloading a mare from the lorry.
		
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## horsebenny (17 March 2015)

I think the debate moved on from my original post to one on hats/footwear and safety in general.


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## SpringArising (17 March 2015)

oldie48 said:



			I just wish someone would  invent a hat that protected my hairstyle as well as my head.
		
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I think that's something we can all agree on!


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## applecart14 (17 March 2015)

Arzada said:



			And hi viz so the emergency services can locate you.
		
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ha ha very funny 

Although the subject is all to real and serious.


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## pennyturner (17 March 2015)

Serianas said:



			Nothing to add on the hat debate, because I wouldnt not wear one (though i had a photoshoot on ratbag without one and bricked it the entire time... all of five mins) but is Pennyturner is the horse on the left at least part NF? he looks alot like Jack 

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Nope, he's a Dartmoor.  The far 2 are NF.


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