# THE DUTCH GAG BIT



## MICHAELA8228 (3 November 2008)

Hi all

Can some one please give me some info on the Dutchb gag bit - ie. who it's suitable for, what it's action is, how it works etc.

Thank you


----------



## merlinsquest (3 November 2008)

Dutch gag in my understanding works with poll pressure to lower the head.

Thats as far as I understand it..... not sure how it acts on the bars or the tongue etc.


----------



## Stateside (3 November 2008)

http://www.shop4bits.com/item--Eldonian-by-Jeffries-KY-Single-Mouth-Rotary-Dutch-Gag--BI-RB6050.html

I hope the info helps


----------



## saddlesore (3 November 2008)

Welcome to the forum! For some reason this bit seems to be quite contentious! personally i quite like them, although i'm not keen on them with jointed mouthpiecces, prefer straight bar. Not wildly dissimilar in action to a pelham IMO and have never had a horse react badly to one - guess with any bit its only as strong as your hands! Many people use them for fast work/ jumping where a bit more stopping power is needed. you can also fit a strap (similar to a curb) on the back of these to limit the rotation of the bit and make it a bit milder.


----------



## MandyMoo (3 November 2008)

the dutch gag generally acts to lower the horses head as it produces poll pressure. xx


----------



## OneInAMillion (3 November 2008)

a dutch gag bit is a very common option for a strong horse as it has a leverage action which exerts pressure on the horses poll forcing him to drop his head and listen (usually(!!) ) 

it is often used with younger riders who dont use their hands properly and it is then a very sharp bit 

If a horse is using a dutch gag often they don't suit a horse and you can easily tells this because every time you take a pull the horse throws his head to try and get away from the pressure 

whereas horses that it suits just tends to get on with it

you can get it in different severenesses as some are fatter than others, some have a link in the middle and you can also get happy mouth versions in white, pink, lilac and baby blue

hope this helps


----------



## angiebaby (4 November 2008)

In the write up shop4bits says gags have a head raising action?! 
My pony's ridden in a Jeffries threee ring with revolver. I don't find it lowers his head at all.


----------



## pootler (4 November 2008)

I had a problem with my horse bearing down on kimblewicks and pelhams and generally being forehandy at speed.  I find he keeps his head up with a 3 ring.  

I started out, once or twice, using the bottom hole only for hunting.  I then moved up to the second hole only.  I am now toying with the idea of using the bit ring and first hole with a rounding.  It has taken about 3 years to move up thorough the rings as he is more balanced and better schooled.


----------



## PapaFrita (5 November 2008)

[ QUOTE ]
Dutch gag in my understanding works with poll pressure to lower the head.


[/ QUOTE ]
I notice several people say this (so nothing personal, you just happened to be the first 
	
	
		
		
	


	




 ) I use a DG with A and I don't think it DOES actually have much poll pressure unless it's used with a curb strap in which case yes, it would. Without a curb strap I think the action is more one of raising the head. But that might just be me


----------



## Honeypots (5 November 2008)

Gags are for raising the head not lowering it


----------



## PapaFrita (5 November 2008)

[ QUOTE ]
Gags are for raising the head not lowering it 
	
	
		
		
	


	





[/ QUOTE ]
Yes indeed 
	
	
		
		
	


	




 HOWEVER, I've also read that the dutch gag is not a true gag (whatever that is! 
	
	
		
		
	


	




) ... I suppose is depends if you use it with a strap or not


----------



## Honeypots (5 November 2008)

Sorry PF ...that was just QR


----------



## PapaFrita (5 November 2008)

LOL! No probs 
	
	
		
		
	


	




 I thought we were having a nice chat


----------



## Honeypots (5 November 2008)

You see, I don't think I've ever seen anyone use one with strap tbh...or two reins


----------



## PapaFrita (5 November 2008)

[ QUOTE ]
You see, I don't think I've ever seen anyone use one with strap tbh...or two reins






[/ QUOTE ]
Ah (adjusts geek hat) I've tried it with a strap (WAY too strong- A dumped me 
	
	
		
		
	


	




 ) and with 2 reins which worked quite well until I tried jumping in them and kept losing them 
	
	
		
		
	


	








 I've now got roundings because Antifaz is behaving himself better (or perhaps my riding has improved 
	
	
		
		
	


	




 )
I don't see why people get so strict about the 'correct' way to use a bit; they don't seem to mind if you take a curb OFF a pelham after all and I know a young lady who rides her horse beautifully in a pelham with one rein on the curb ring.


----------



## merlinsquest (5 November 2008)

But surely using a strap will limit the poll pressure as it stops the rotation of the bit rings which is what causes the poll pressure in the first place????

Not claiming to know what I am talking about though..... but I ride in a DG and it certainly lowers merlins head.....

An English Gag is a different bit and different action altogether though..... as the bit rises in the mouth thus raising the head.


Disclaimer for MQ..... I dont really know anything at all


----------



## PapaFrita (5 November 2008)

Nope, without the stap the bit is lifted in the mouth. WITH the strap leverage is created on the jaw and so IMO creates more poll pressure.
I don't really know anything at all either but I did have a play around the other day, put my finger under the headpiece etc, and that was my conclusion


----------



## merlinsquest (5 November 2008)

If the strap stops the bit rotating, surely the pressure is then put on the curb groove??  but doesnt the bit lifting creates poll pressure in itself..... and the more the bit can rotate, the more poll pressure there will be....???


Like I say, I am just guessing, as with anything that rotates or tightens, the pressure must be dispersed to another point.







  Not a clue in reality though...... all I know is that snaffle = terror...... gag = moderated terror


----------



## PapaFrita (6 November 2008)

Well, yes, it does stop the bit rotating, which I think is when the poll action comes in, making the action more like a jointed pelham.
Course, that's just what I think, and I could be totally wrong. As long as A goes OK in it! 
	
	
		
		
	


	





Gosh, aren't we nice and polite? If only all the forum were as charming


----------



## MICHAELA8228 (6 November 2008)

Thanks peeps!!!  That's clear as mud!! 
	
	
		
		
	


	













Only joking, I'll sift through that a make my decision..........


----------



## merlinsquest (6 November 2008)

But if the bit doesnt rotate, how does the poll get the pressure.... to rotate would cause the cheeks to lower and therefore the poll to be pressurised 
	
	
		
		
	


	




  If the cheeks dont lower coz the bits restricted in its rotation, then surely its more bar, tongue and curb pressure???

Gosh, we are polite  
	
	
		
		
	


	









I do pride myself on being practically perfect in every way though


----------



## merlinsquest (7 November 2008)

Having ridden out today and chatted about this personal dilemma I have (whether it raises or lowers the head) I will now agree that without a strap it will rotate in the mouth but that the cheeks are not really pulled downwards as I assumed they would be.......  And now having had PBS pull and twist poor Sparkle about, I can see how a curb strap would cause the cheeks to lower as the strap comes into action.














  Never one to mind being proved wrong 
	
	
		
		
	


	





However in my experience (on merlin) it does make 'him' lower his head, never bring it up 
	
	
		
		
	


	













Nice debate


----------



## PapaFrita (7 November 2008)

[ QUOTE ]
 And now having had PBS pull and twist poor Sparkle about, I can see how a curb strap would cause the cheeks to lower as the strap comes into action.


[/ QUOTE ]
Ah yes. My technique as well 
	
	
		
		
	


	





[ QUOTE ]










  Never one to mind being proved wrong 
	
	
		
		
	


	





[/ QUOTE ]
LOL, me neither 
	
	
		
		
	


	





[ QUOTE ]
However in my experience (on merlin) it does make 'him' lower his head, never bring it up 
	
	
		
		
	


	














[/ QUOTE ]
Doesn't make PF bring her head up either. Not sure about A as he's got quite a high headcarriage anyway. What mouthpiece have you got? I used to use a happy mouth on PF which might've encouraged her to take a contact?

[ QUOTE ]
Nice debate 
	
	
		
		
	


	









[/ QUOTE ]
Yes, I agree


----------



## Murphy88 (7 November 2008)

I used a copper mouthpiece gag on my jumping pony, on the middle ring. She has a very high head carriage anyway, and I don't suppose any bit would have got her to lower her head so can't really comment on that action. When she was on loan someone tried jumping her on the bottom ring though, and had zero control - pony just tanked off, and the bit seemed to just turn in her mouth.


----------



## lauraanddolly (9 November 2008)

There are many misconceptions regarding the action of this bit!! 
 In simple terms, gags raise the head, and should always be used with two reins. However not many people do or remember this nowadays! 
 When I was training for my AI, we had a pop quiz with our instructor the night before the stage 2 exam. One if his questions to us was: what was the action of the gag bit? We all answered very confidently that it lowers the head, however we were all wrong!! Lucky we had that pop quiz I got asked that question on the exam, which I would have got wrong had it not been for the pop quiz. 
 This is not to say anyone using a gag without 2 reins is wrong really, if it works for you then fine.
 Personally I hate them. Oh and if you want head lowering a pelham does that!


----------



## mle22 (9 November 2008)

It definitely raises the head. We used one on a horse that used to get longer and lower jumping round a course. This bit raised her so that she was easier to keep between hand and leg for small rider. Worked a treat and the horse went sweetly in it, lots of clear rounds instead on 4 faults. She seemed to take her job more seriously in it if that makes sense.


----------



## flyingfeet (10 November 2008)

You are all right and wrong

1. This is not a proper gag bit - those are running gags which purely raise the head and have no poll leverage. 

2. The action depends on 2 discreet factors
     - Firstly how you set up this bit, many people set too high in the mouth using a snaffle wrinkle set up. This means that there is very little slide on the ring and the bit will be almost totally head lowering from the leverage of the shanks and poll pressure

     - Secondly how much you use the reins (assuming you've set it correctly in the mouth), a light contact will tend to raise the head as the mouthpeice slides up the ring, strong / heavy contact will lower the head as you'll reach the end point of the gag action.


----------



## merlinsquest (10 November 2008)

Glad to read that I am not completely wrong 
	
	
		
		
	


	













But worried now that as he puts his head down, that it must be too high and me too heavy handed


----------



## flyingfeet (10 November 2008)

Well except I managed to get that the wrong way around - setting it high in the mouth will give most "gag action", setting lower in the mouth will give more poll action... *doh*

However you only get around 2" of gag action, so most common to be head lowering. 

Its often set low, not high, as your cheek peices won't go up high enough.


----------



## merlinsquest (10 November 2008)

They do if they are shetland size on a cob headpiece like mine


----------

