# GRAND NATIONAL 2013



## Horselover39 (8 March 2013)

I have just seen an advert for this years meeting, apparently after last years "Casualties" number are down to attend the Great Race?
What do you guys think. Should this race be allowed to continue? Are Aintree getting it right or very wrong.....


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## bonny (8 March 2013)

It's a month away and I'm sure it will be a full house as usual ......


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## ribbons (8 March 2013)

Yes it should be allowed to continue.


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## JackAT (9 March 2013)

^^Ditto.


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## Alec Swan (9 March 2013)

The greater the scare-mongering,  the greater the interest in the race.  

The tragedy is that the Jockey Club invited the opinions of those equine authorities,  the rspca,  and acquiesced to the whipped up public demand,  lowered the fences,  made the race faster,  and guess what?  You've got it,  the accident rate rose. 

Such good sense,  don't you think? 

Alec.


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## Elf On A Shelf (9 March 2013)

Yes the race should continue. It's the media hype that people get wound up about. 2 horses died in one of Red Rum's races all those years ago but it didnt cause public outrage as, to be honest, the race was only popular to those involved with horses.

It is the media that is killing the race and it's vibe but without the press there would be no race.


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## Fintan (9 March 2013)

Well it is possible to train a horse in such a way that it is able to do the GN.

I believe most accidents do happen because the field is to tight, not really because of the fitness.

So they should reduce the amount of starting horses for safety reasons.

On the other hand side, most people like the thrill about broken legs and necks.

It is so exiting, will they survive, will they come back in one piece? The damage is a part of the party.   Sick

And no, I am not from the green party, I am in the game as well. But none of my horses would ever start at the GN. No matter if it was good enough or not.


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## Alec Swan (9 March 2013)

Fintan said:



			.......

On the other hand side, most people like the thrill about broken legs and necks.

.......
		
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Not in this house they don't.

Alec.


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## Fintan (9 March 2013)

Here in this forum house, yes I agree. Here is horse lovers and horse people.


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## Parachute (9 March 2013)

Yes of course it should continue. I personally love the Grand National and yes, I get saddened when horses get injured or die. But at the end of the day, it will continue for many more years. The fact that they're actually trying to improve the course makes me more confident that over the years there will be less fatalities. So I think the Grand National should continue as it really is fun and exciting to watch and many people look forward to it throughout the year.


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## alliersv1 (9 March 2013)

Alec Swan said:



			The tragedy is that the Jockey Club invited the opinions of those equine authorities,  the rspca,  and acquiesced to the whipped up public demand,  lowered the fences,  made the race faster,  and guess what?  You've got it,  the accident rate rose. 

Such good sense,  don't you think? 

Alec.
		
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A well meaning, but epic fail. Totally agree with you.



Fintan said:



			On the other hand side, most people like the thrill about broken legs and necks.
		
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Sorry, but you're wrong there. Thrills are what they are. Close racing, a race won on the nod, a stride taken out, a "save of the century" by a jockey with both legs on the same side of the horse, hanging round it's neck and somehow clinging on. THAT is thrilling. Broken legs and necks are not 
I love watching the GN, and I love the excitement, much as like I love watching motorbike racing. Falls and mayhem are common in both, but I NEVER enjoy seeing a serious injury/ fatality. That is just heartbreaking.


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## Ancient Hacker (9 March 2013)

I think (if I may be a bit presumptuous here) that Fintan's reference to "thrills" was more properly meant in the context of the sensationalism that is attendant upon any tragedy that occurs in the Grand National, or any major race. Certain of the media feast upon it somewhat disproportionately.... many a time I've been horrified at photographs taken nano-seconds apart showing some ghastly fall at a fence and splurged in technicolour across some publications. As Fintan notes: sick.

I do wish, instead, the media would take a more measured approach - in all things, actually!


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## Horselover39 (10 March 2013)

I think they need to raise the fences again and slow down the field. They lowered them and since then many more horses have died. It's ridiculous....


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## MillyMoomie (10 March 2013)

Grand National SHOULD continue. Aintree is actually one of the safest and hugest welfare courses around. Some of the others not so and they need to brush their ideas up. 

Alec Swan the more I see of what you have read the further I am convinced that you just have a vendetta against certain welfare organisations. Aintree has worked with the RSPCA ( david Muir) extensively with the fences, not simply lowering as many people put it but the profile and the inherent frame. He Also brought in special loose horse run in areas etc etc. Not to mention his work with the cushioned whip/hurdles and the water jump. This has only got to be positive.

It is the owners/trainers and jockeys who have GOT to take responsibility for the horses in the Grand National.


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## Honeylight (10 March 2013)

Horselover39 said:



			I think they need to raise the fences again and slow down the field. They lowered them and since then many more horses have died. It's ridiculous....
		
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This is true; a quick look at the statistics will show you that far more horses have died since the fences were lowered & the drainage re-done.
In the 1930s there were 6 deaths, the 1940s, (racing didn't take place in '41,42,43,44,45), 3, 1950s 6, 1960s 5, 1970s 9, 1980s 5, 1990s 10 & since 2000 12.
The jumps were initially altered in the early 1960s & again in the 1980s & twice since then.

Another factor is the type of horse competing. Although only three horses have won the race that were specifically bred to race on the flat: Double Chance in 1925, Battleship in 1938 & Red Rum in 1973, 1974 & 1977, there are increasing numbers of horses taking part in the race, that have flat pedigrees, or are of a lighter & more fragile build. Up to the 1960s horses came from old fashioned jumping pedigrees & were more likely to be out-breds with good bone. These were also "stores" & slowly matured to develop strong bone on limestone pastures.

Although less fashionable flat race stallions have long been recruited for  National Hunt breeding, there were more hardy out-crosses, from lines such as Hurry On & Son in Law, long consigned to history. Today we have Northern Dancer mega inbreds with shelly white feet & silver tails! They are the popular lines & some NH horses are now inbred to Northern Dancer.
The French bred horses, where they might be quick maturing & run over jumps young, do have a "bit of rough" & some like Neptune Colonges are Selle Francias, effectively half breds.

All this has conspired to produce a much faster race over smaller, narrower jumps, competed by lighter framed, fragile & in some cases horses inbred to North American stallions with their history of faulty conformation.
Recipe for disaster all round.


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## Bertieb123 (10 March 2013)

YES it should continue, and I will probably get loads of flack for saying this, Put all the fences and track back to how it used to be! You needed a good strong built, staying, jumping horse to win this race years ago, now the fences have been modified, the ground is testing, the speed over this course is now too fast, because the fences have been modified. Years ago you had a NATIONAL horse, they were special, probably not raced in much before the National, today they at Cheltenham in the Gold Cup then a month later they in the National? What does that say? not a test of stamina and jumping ability anymore (too much speed).


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## Honeylight (10 March 2013)

I have looked closely at the breeding of horses fatally injured in the race this century & the results are:
*Northern Dancer Male Line....
*Synchronised, flat bred & 2 crosses of Hail to Reason
According to Pete, flat bred, outbred
Hear the Echo, NH bred & 2 crosses of Sir Gaylord
Manx Magic, flat bred, crosses of Nearco 3X3 &4, Hyperion 2X4, Mahmoud 2X4
Thyne&tyneagain,  NH bred outbred
Dooney's Gate, NH bred, outbred

Other two horses
McKelvey, NH bred inbred to Le Haar 3X4
Last Fling NH bred 4X4 His Highness

I suppose the Northern Dancer statistic reflects the popularity of the line. Northern Dancer has a cross of Native Dancer who is a known factor in passing on unsoundness.


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## cptrayes (10 March 2013)

How often is a major steeplechase won by a horse who can go on to produce progeny?

I don't know what the answer is with the National this year, but for sure NH breeding is calculated to produce horses who can't cope with major steeplechases, because the winners at that game are mostly already gelded.

It's a crazy, crazy way to breed jumping racers. They'd be better off crossing out to good eventers wouldn't they?


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## Honeylight (10 March 2013)

Looking at the statistics, deaths began to increase as smaller lighter built horses began to compete in the race. Further back most horses are purpose bred for jumping & the conformation & frame of the winners/runners up, is solid with a lot of bone below the knee. After the 1960s winners became smaller & lighter, though horses like Gay Trip (& others by the stallion Vulgan) would look massive  today, compared to the likes of Synchronised, who probably shouldn't have been asked to jump the course.

NH horses to produce progeny have been Cheltenham Gold Cup winner from the late 1940s Fortina, Manicou, who one the King George VI chase (both bred in France). More recently Champion Hurdle winners Eboneezer, Saucy Kit, Monksfield & Alderbrook have been at stud. The last entire male Grand National winner was Battleship in 1938, who sired jumpers in his native USA. 
The last two mares to have won, Sheila's Cottage & Nickel Coin, didn't produce many winners. Tiberetta, a runner up in the 1950s threw the good horse Spanish Steps who was also placed at Aintree.

I personally agree with other posters that the jumps should be raised, the course softened to slow the ground & the race continued.

Another factor regarding the falls is that Aintree is one of the few courses with drop fences. Haydock had drops, but it made the jump course temporary some years ago, disgracefully in my mind, & there is no where to give a horse the experience of drop fences taken at racing speed any more. Some of the fences (on wheels) are a joke, more like small hurdles, no wonder horses come to grief when they experience a solid fence.


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## Alec Swan (10 March 2013)

cptrayes said:



			How often is a major steeplechase won by a horse who can go on to produce progeny?

I don't know what the answer is with the National this year, but for sure NH breeding is calculated to produce horses who can't cope with major steeplechases, because the winners at that game are mostly already gelded.

It's a crazy, crazy way to breed jumping racers. They'd be better off crossing out to good eventers wouldn't they?
		
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Para 1.  Most chasers are geldings,  so a horse is created as being the finite product,  and then it's back to the drawing board.

Para 2.  I don't understand the use of the word "Calculated".  Calculated by who?

Para 3.  How right you are,  but these known producers of the best NH horses,  are so mind numbingly expensive as to preclude them from the event breeding market.  Why there's a degree of thinking which holds back the very best NH Stallions from event bred mares,  is beyond me.

I'd also add that the best of the chasing bred horses are now coming from the flat bred lines,  and in my humbled and not to be valued opinion,  that's a huge error.  The "Jump" is being bred out of far to many horses.  Getting it back will be near impossible.

Alec.


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## cptrayes (10 March 2013)

Alec Swan said:



			Para 2.  I don't understand the use of the word "Calculated".  Calculated by who?
		
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The expression is commonly used and figurative.

It means, if you set out with a deliberate plan to breed National Hunt horses which will not be strong enough to do the job as safely as it can be done, then a very good way to do that would be to take the path which is being taken right now:

- geld the males before they ever prove whether they can do the job.


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## Elf On A Shelf (10 March 2013)

In regards to out crossing to eventing stock - look at what Angrove Stud did - they crossed a flat bred mare with a stocky, sports horse and they got a stocky jumping horse [content removed]. So it doesn't always work. The French have the right idea when crossing them with Selle Francais to give some bone and jumping ability.

As to entires jumping - mostly they become to protective of 'themselves' and jump too big and too slow and lose a lot of ground in the process. Can't really blame them to be honest!


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## Alec Swan (10 March 2013)

I accept your point,  but were there ever Stallions which ever "Jumped"?  The odd thing,  or so it seems to me,  is that the bulk of the very best NH and Chasing horses,  still arrive,  by chance.

I don't know,  and wish that I did!!

Alec.


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## cptrayes (10 March 2013)

EKW said:



			In regards to out crossing to eventing stock - look at what Angrove Stud did - they crossed a flat bred mare with a stocky, sports horse and they got a stocky jumping horse [content removed]. So it doesn't always work. The French have the right idea when crossing them with Selle Francais to give some bone and jumping ability.

As to entires jumping - mostly they become to protective of 'themselves' and jump too big and too slow and lose a lot of ground in the process. Can't really blame them to be honest!
		
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I'm not sure that Angrove are a good example    They crossed for colour when they should have been crossing for fast safe jumping, for which I'd go for a proven eventing sire if I couldn't have an NH winner.


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## Elf On A Shelf (10 March 2013)

cptrayes said:



			I'm not sure that Angrove are a good example    They crossed for colour when they should have been crossing for fast safe jumping, for which I'd go for a proven eventing sire if I couldn't have an NH winner.
		
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Yes, true, but they were the only ones I could think of as an example lol!


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## olop (10 March 2013)

Horselover39 said:



			I think they need to raise the fences again and slow down the field. They lowered them and since then many more horses have died. It's ridiculous....
		
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100% agree with this.  If you look at last year's Becher Chase over the national fences (although a shorter race) not one of the horses fell in this race & it had less than half the runners in the national.



Honeylight said:



			I have looked closely at the breeding of horses fatally injured in the race this century & the results are:
*Northern Dancer Male Line....
*Synchronised, flat bred & 2 crosses of Hail to Reason
According to Pete, flat bred, outbred
Hear the Echo, NH bred & 2 crosses of Sir Gaylord
Manx Magic, flat bred, crosses of Nearco 3X3 &4, Hyperion 2X4, Mahmoud 2X4
Thyne&tyneagain,  NH bred outbred
Dooney's Gate, NH bred, outbred

Other two horses
McKelvey, NH bred inbred to Le Haar 3X4
Last Fling NH bred 4X4 His Highness

I suppose the Northern Dancer statistic reflects the popularity of the line. Northern Dancer has a cross of Native Dancer who is a known factor in passing on unsoundness.
		
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I can kind of see your point but yo have to take into account the way these horse's died for that to be the main reason for the fatalities.

McKelvey for instance died as for some reason he tried to go under the rails whilst he was loose, he broke his back doing so   hence the reason there are now gaps between the fences so the loose horses can go around the fences instead of trying to go over the fence or under the rails.

The only NH breeding stallion (that I can think of off the top of my head) that was succesful in NH racing is Alderbrooke but even then he was a hurdler & I think even he comes from flat lines??


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## Elf On A Shelf (10 March 2013)

Yes Alderbrook was a flat horse who only hurdled 6 times. During those 6 runs he won and was 2nd in the Cheltenham Champion Hurdle and his final start was a winning one in the Scotyish Champion Hurdle. All 2mile hurdle races so not exactly the sort of horse you would see siring some of our best long distance chasers at the moment.


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## Bertieb123 (10 March 2013)

It is a one off horse who wins the National.


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## Dunlin (10 March 2013)

I look forward to the National each year, I love looking over the horses, riders and trainers and eying up my favourite. I'll always have a bet on a couple, one to win and one each way. I enjoy watching National day, all of it. Yes it's sad when a horse dies or a jockey gets injured but as has been proven in the past if a horse doesn't want to go then they won't. I was a bit disappointed last year about Synchronised, it was one of those situations that I saw coming before the race even started when he was off having his jolly, mistakes will always be made though and accidents will unfortunately always happen.

I think the number of entries is OK as has been proven for many years in the past but I think the height of the fences should be raised again as it does seem to slow them down and to a certain degree space them out as the higher the fence the more likely the horse will be to duck to the side to get in an extra stride rather than just plow straight through it, hence when the fences were bigger it seemed they were actually spaced out more. I also agree that the ground should always be on the soft side for the National, I've seen some real nasty falls when the ground has been fast and it really does make you hold your breath as 40 horses come pounding in to the first fence. But then you don't want it so soft that you end up with tired horses struggling to get over the last 5 jumping efforts or collapsing or needing oxygen. 

I go to airshows and without fail, every year, I am stood next to someone that is bored and will say "is that one gonna crash?" and you hear a collective gasp as an aircraft does a seemingly dangerous manoeuvre and some will go "awwww" in disappointment when the aircraft pulls up and away and doesn't plummet into the ground.

It's not what I would class as normal behaviour but unfortunately it seems to be common behaviour for spectators watching risk sports. I don't think the National is going to ever suffer with attendance figures unless they drastically change the course so it's utterly boring and easy.


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## Fintan (10 March 2013)

@ alliersc1
I think you did misunderstand me. Thrill for many people is a strange thing.

For the thrill I did nearly do everything. I was doing fight clubs, boxing, motorcycling and skydiving. As well riding and here my favorite is eventing but I am in the races as well.

The only difference here is, whenever I use a horse for my sport I have to think and take care for two. It is never the horses decision to jump with me some strange things, it is my decision and for this I have to take responsibility.
I have to reduce the risk in any possible regard in such a way that I can bring the horse home sound and save. 
OK, **** can happen but it is my job to sort it out without ignorance only because it is only a horse.

The thrill, yes. But did you ever think about the following?
Two headlines in the newspaper:

A Gang member did lead an old granny save over the road.

And now: 
A gang member did kill an old granny and did rob her.

What is the newspaper that will be bought? And why? 

People like bloody sensations but nobody is interested in a peaceful bingo game from the nursing home.
How interesting would the GN be without any unpleasant accidents? No injuries, neither a horse nor a jockey? Nobody killed? All this is a massive promotion and a massive magnet for people and betting.
The same phenomena like people sitting in front of the cage at an ultimate fight event.


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## fburton (11 March 2013)

Fintan said:



			Thrill for many people is a strange thing.
		
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The 'Thrills and Spills' videos one used to be able to buy (maybe still can) mainly contain people falling off horses and not horses having horrendous falls. In one sense, this is reassuring.


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## Dovorian (11 March 2013)

I do not have sufficient knowledge to comment but I wondered if other races such as the Pardubice mirror the issues of the National in any way?


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## Fintan (11 March 2013)

The Pardubice I did join once at a time long ago. A friend of mine had to ride a horse there. It was the old course.

What I did realize was that nearly behind every fence a man with a gun was positioned. Now we can discuss about this if we want. Was this because of an act of humanity or was it because the risk of a serious injured horse aproving calculated in?

Sometimes these games sell a bit better when they are a bit like the movie Gladiator or Rollerball.

And Tschech is not in the focus of the world, it is a country behind the curtain.

If a horse is fit and if it has space enough to sort out himself the risk of accidents is very well reduced.

But if you watch this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ur_hgbhX5gg

you realize it is not the the hight of the fence.

Most of the trouble takes place when the horse is in the middle of the scrum, locked in.

So the field is too tight, it is too packed. It is like a panic in a football stadium.

Again, I am not against the GN but reducing the risk does mean reduce the starter field to 20 horses. 

It is not only the horses killed during the race, it is also the horses killed afterwords because of injuries like wracked tendons and so on.


And many, if not most of these injuries are caused by jumping out of unlucky positions as well as the landing.

Waste, no more use for racing e.g. after the GN, so put him down. 

And this is what most people don`t see or also ignore or forget.


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## alliersv1 (11 March 2013)

Fintan said:



			@ alliersc1
I think you did misunderstand me. Thrill for many people is a strange thing.




How interesting would the GN be without any unpleasant accidents? No injuries, neither a horse nor a jockey? Nobody killed? All this is a massive promotion and a massive magnet for people and betting.
		
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I understood you didn't mean it literally, but replied to it as you posted. With the greatest respect, I'm finding your posts a bit hard to decipher.
I know where you are coming from, but I still have to take issue with the above which I have quoted.
How interesting would the GN be with nobody killed? VERY!
I like thrills and spills as much as the next person, but I draw the line at death, whether that be human or animal, and I suspect that most people feel the same..this side of a secure unit anyway.
Yes, falls etc can make racing interesting, but no normal human being wants to see a horse or jockey be fatally injured. It is not a massive promotion. In the last few years particularly, it has done the GN a massive disservice.

ETA. I have just read your last post Fintan. On that I totally agree with you. IMO, the field for the GN is too large, and that does not help give the horses the best chance to safely negotiate the course, particularly on the first circuit. I would far prefer to see the field reduced in priority to further altering fences etc.


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## bonny (11 March 2013)

If you further reduce the number of horses running and continue to lower the fences then the grand national would be no more. It's world famous because it is unique and any more changes would make it the same as any other staying handicap chase.


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## alliersv1 (11 March 2013)

bonny said:



			If you further reduce the number of horses running and continue to lower the fences then the grand national would be no more. It's world famous because it is unique and any more changes would make it the same as any other staying handicap chase.
		
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I wouldn't like to see the fences altered at all. They have already been made "safer", and I don't think any further changes will make much difference to the faller rate. I agree that they need to maintain the uniqueness of the course that makes the GN what it is, but I do still think the field should be reduced.


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## Honeylight (11 March 2013)

EKW said:



			In regards to out crossing to eventing stock - look at what Angrove Stud did - they crossed a flat bred mare with a stocky, sports horse and they got a stocky jumping horse that was plagued with soundness issues. So it doesn't always work. The French have the right idea when crossing them with Selle Francais to give some bone and jumping ability.

As to entires jumping - mostly they become to protective of 'themselves' and jump too big and too slow and lose a lot of ground in the process. Can't really blame them to be honest!
		
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Gosh EKW you'll have those Angrove people after you......!


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## Honeylight (11 March 2013)

Alec Swan said:



			I accept your point,  but were there ever Stallions which ever "Jumped"?  The odd thing,  or so it seems to me,  is that the bulk of the very best NH and Chasing horses,  still arrive,  by chance.

I don't know,  and wish that I did!!

Alec.
		
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Read my post. I have identified some of the NH horses who went to the stud. I think Vulgan also ran over hurdles as did Spartan General. Kadastrof is a winner over fences & he is currently at stud.


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## pec (11 March 2013)

I am by no means an expert but have listened to people who have ridden in the race and the main comment coming from them is that by lowering the fences and reducing the size differential accross the track has meant that all the horses cram to the inside and hurtle round at dangerous speeds.  Before these changes were made the horses who went for the inside neede to be bold jumpers to cope with the extra height, the faster less confident jumpers aimed for the outside where the jumps were not as daunting, now there is nothing to be gained by staying on the outside hence more crowding on the inside.
Perhaps people should take note of people who know what tyhey are talking about, rather than people who just want a good headline for their (political?) organisation.


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## Fintan (12 March 2013)

@ alliersv1

Yes, this is all I mean. Just reduce the field, don`t touch the fences.

If we touch the fences the horses will loose respect and then they will get in trouble.

@ Bonny

Yes it is world famous and I would ride it as well but only on my own just for the fun. 

But world famous does not mean we should calculate in a colateral damage only for to keep it famous. The Kolloseum and other gladiator arenas have been world famous as well.
The inquisition was world famous as well. Would you stick with this?

I think a modern world deserves a bit more.


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## Alec Swan (13 March 2013)

MillyMoomie said:



			.......

Alec Swan the more I see of what you have read the further I am convinced that you just have a vendetta against certain welfare organisations. Aintree has worked with the RSPCA ( david Muir) extensively with the fences, not simply lowering as many people put it but the profile and the inherent frame. ........
		
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It may appear that I've such a vendetta,  but that isn't the case.  What amazes me is that such an inept,  and from the equine,  the jump aspect and the the racing perspective,  that the rspca's opinion is given any credibility,  is beyond me,  and others too,  I suspect.  The opinions of jockeys and trainers would be of far greater value.



Fintan said:



			.......

What I did realize was that nearly behind every fence a man with a gun was positioned. 

.......
		
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And behind every race,  here in the UK,  a man with a gun follows.  He's called a vet.

Alec.


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## Double_choc_lab (13 March 2013)

I believe why there was such an outcry after last years race was due to the camera coverage.  With the overhead camera you could actually see a dead horse on the track, albeit it covered by a large tarp and you could partially see behind the screens.  Previously the cameras were only at ground level and you wouldn't notice any prone fallers.  Those who know their racing yes would realise what had happened but Joe Public on the whole would have no idea.  In days of old you wuold only be told at the end of the days coverage if a horse had been lost.  
I'm another for put the fences back up - so much tinkering has made it far to fast.


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## Charem (13 March 2013)

Double_choc_lab said:



			I believe why there was such an outcry after last years race was due to the camera coverage.  With the overhead camera you could actually see a dead horse on the track, albeit it covered by a large tarp and you could partially see behind the screens.  Previously the cameras were only at ground level and you wouldn't notice any prone fallers.  Those who know their racing yes would realise what had happened but Joe Public on the whole would have no idea.  In days of old you wuold only be told at the end of the days coverage if a horse had been lost.  
I'm another for put the fences back up - so much tinkering has made it far to fast.
		
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From what I remember it wasn't the overhead cameras (I think they've been there a while). It was the fact that when horses fell and couldn't get back up instead of dragging them away to the sidelines away from the cameras they were treated where they fell, and the field was directed around the fence. This drew attention to the fallen when previously you wouldn't have seen them.

I'm not 100% where I stand on the GN. I enjoy watching it and admire the horse's and the jockeys grit and courage however i'm not sure it's right that many people, including myself I think, just accept so easily that there's likely to be a horse fatality as a direct result of the race.


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## lcsd114 (13 March 2013)

Charem.  I totally agree.  It wasn't the camera angle, it was the fact that they left him out there instead of moving him.  Plus the fact that they made the field go around Bechers the second time around which also highlighted that there was a horse down.  I just don't understand why they did those things.  (In years past they've moved any injured horses from the first circuit out of sight.) That just led to more controversy and fanning the flames of hate.
  I've been watching (and loving) the GN for 30 plus years and my dream is still to ride in it myself.  Unfortunately, bowing to public and media pressure has reduced it from the best and most difficult race in the world to a slightly more difficult than normal steeplechase.  All the so-called safety measures (filling in the ditch and reducing the slope by Bechers, making the fences smaller, the run arounds by the fences) have just made it more appealing to owners of "lesser" horses - horses that are not bred or trained to run a 4 and a half mile steeplechase, who then fall and add to the swell of voices calling for more safety measures!!!  It's a vicious circle which needs to stop.


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## Honeylight (13 March 2013)

lcsd114 said:



			Charem.  I totally agree.  It wasn't the camera angle, it was the fact that they left him out there instead of moving him.  Plus the fact that they made the field go around Bechers the second time around which also highlighted that there was a horse down.  I just don't understand why they did those things.  (In years past they've moved any injured horses from the first circuit out of sight.) That just led to more controversy and fanning the flames of hate.
  I've been watching (and loving) the GN for 30 plus years and my dream is still to ride in it myself.  Unfortunately, bowing to public and media pressure has reduced it from the best and most difficult race in the world to a slightly more difficult than normal steeplechase.  All the so-called safety measures (filling in the ditch and reducing the slope by Bechers, making the fences smaller, the run arounds by the fences) have just made it more appealing to owners of "lesser" horses - horses that are not bred or trained to run a 4 and a half mile steeplechase, who then fall and add to the swell of voices calling for more safety measures!!!  It's a vicious circle which needs to stop.
		
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I have been watching it since Foinavon won after the pile up. I agree with your excellent post. All the meddling has resulted in a much more dangerous race. No one would have asked Synchronised to jump around in the 1950s, he would have been dwarfed by horses like Freebooter. Although all shapes & sizes have won, there was more of a "National" type in the past. 
I agree the jumps should be raised, it should be run in March not April or heavily watered.....or done away with all together.
It is highly likely that a horse will lose it's life over the GN fences at the meeting, lying under the tarp for all to see & then where will we be? It cannot be made 100% safe, no race can.


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## dominobrown (13 March 2013)

Also by changing every year you are making it harder to prepare for, because every year it is not the same race... i.e moved start, different fences etc. They need to make a decision and stick to it for a few years so the jockeys can get used to riding it, the horses used to the course and the trainers knowing what they are training for. Basically what I am saying every year it is an unknown quantity. 
Also people making the decisions on how to make the race safer should be experts in their field... i.e trainers/ jockeys etc who have ridden in the race or work with racehorse who know what they are talking about.

I am sorry but the British general public don't really know much/ anything about horses/ racehorses so Joe Bloggs opinion isn't any use. 
Also the Great British Public live in a culture that distances itself from death. People will happily eat chicken nuggets but couldn't kill a chicken, or buy a cheap ready meal and never think about where the meat comes from, or go to the races and put on a bet on a horse. I think we have lost a sense of reality and don't like to face facts.


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## Fintan (13 March 2013)

@ dominobrown

somehow your right. Facing the reality is for many people not comfortable. Some also have their own reality.

The confusing and many times repellent thing in this game is a mix out of many things.

My horses don`t start when I find that the ground is not save.

As well the rule with my horses is allways go from the front or from behind and the side so that you don`t come in trouble when a horse does go down.

Avoid any unnecessary risk.

And then I have to deal sometimes with owners and they are very special.

You tell them your horse is not sound, there is no point to run him.

They tell you the horse has to run because they have some friends comming to the race. A nice day out ......

You tell them that this is not good they should give the horse a chance to recover or what ever, they ignore it.

Some are more connected to their car or mobil phone than to the horse. 

These people don`t do well for the sport as well.

It is hard to find the middle way.


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## BigBuck's (14 March 2013)

lcsd114 said:



			All the so-called safety measures (filling in the ditch and reducing the slope by Bechers, making the fences smaller, the run arounds by the fences) have just made it more appealing to owners of "lesser" horses - horses that are not bred or trained to run a 4 and a half mile steeplechase, who then fall and add to the swell of voices calling for more safety measures!!!  It's a vicious circle which needs to stop.
		
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Actually this is the exact opposite of the current situation.  The race attracts better quality horses nowadays, such as the likes of Synchronised, Imperial Commander, Neptunes Collonges - all winners of or placed in the Gold Cup - to the point that the old situation of the bottom 3 or 4 horses being out of the handicap has gone.  These days you have to be allocated around 10-3 to have a chance of getting in.

Ironically, this may be contributing to the accident rate, along with the lowered fences as already noted.  The better and fitter the horse, the faster it will run from an earlier point in the race.  The historic 'hunt round the first circuit and start to race on the second circuit' days are over, so horses are going pretty much flat out from the outset before they and their riders have properly 'got their eye in', so to speak.

On the breeding front, while I don't necessarily agree with the way the breed is going, soundness-wise, I have to correct a few inaccuracies being presented as facts on this thread.  There has never been a National 'type' in terms of shape, size or breeding.  The greatest National horse ever was bred to be a Flat racer and won a selling race as a 2yo in 1967.  Historically, a National 'type' was considered to be a 2.5 mile chaser (because of the old tradition of only starting to race properly on the second circuit mentioned above) who was a careful jumper.  Battleship, the 1938 winner, stood 15 hands.  Also, Neptunes Collonges is not a 'half-bred' or a Selle Francais.  He is an AQPS, or Autre Que Pur-Sang.  AQPS horses are, on average, about 80% Thoroughbred these days.  The non-TB in NC's pedigree comes from his great-great-great grandam, making him 31/32 Thoroughbred.


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## Alec Swan (16 March 2013)

Fintan said:



			@ dominobrown

.....

Some are more connected to their car or mobil phone than to the horse. 

These people don`t do well for the sport as well.

It is hard to find the middle way.
		
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Well said.  

There is a chasm between those who "Wear A horse",  as a trinket,  and those who "Wear the horse".  I hope that makes sense.

Alec.


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## Mavis007 (16 March 2013)

My opinion is that if a horse makes a bad mistake and dies as a result in the GN then this is extremely sad but at least it made the mistake. What I HATE is seeing horses killed by being brought down by other horses and the pile ups that happen fill me with horror. Yet I love watching "normal" racing. It is simply not fair for this to happen through no fault of the horse. All that needs to happen us to reduce the number of starters. And I can see that raising the fences may also help, and could also be used to increase public interest. New "tougher" Grand National that you need to be one of the best to qualify for.....


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## Fintan (16 March 2013)

@ Alec

yes that`s it. Id did meet some owners at the trac, they did ask where is my horse. I did say up there, They did ask which one? I think it was a bay one wasn`t it? Yes the one n the middle.

Answer ah, yes allright. Looking nice.

@ Mavis

exactly. They can also have an accident in the field. Three weeks ago we had to put one down.

5 years old, unraced, just in the pretraining. He did rear on the ramp of the lorry, did tip over and did break his wither.

The hight of the fences, well a horse can do a puicance. So the hight can`t be a argument because there not really high.

It is just to tight with so many horses, so they can`t sort their bones.

This is causing the problems, the straight problems at the track and the unseen problems later on. 

How many horses will be put down at home because of injuries caused by a jump like this?

More than will die on the track. 

And there is no need for. But if you count them and pass the numbers on to the press with the real reason for it, what will happen?

It is not only what some see it is also nearly more what they don`t see. Or even don`t want to see.


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## silu (17 March 2013)

pec said:



			I am by no means an expert but have listened to people who have ridden in the race and the main comment coming from them is that by lowering the fences and reducing the size differential accross the track has meant that all the horses cram to the inside and hurtle round at dangerous speeds.  Before these changes were made the horses who went for the inside neede to be bold jumpers to cope with the extra height, the faster less confident jumpers aimed for the outside where the jumps were not as daunting, now there is nothing to be gained by staying on the outside hence more crowding on the inside.
Perhaps people should take note of people who know what tyhey are talking about, rather than people who just want a good headline for their (political?) organisation.
		
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Walked the course in the 60s and walked it again last year. hardly recognisable in comparison to how it used to be. The course is extremely flat so with the jumps/drops being dramatically reduced, going usually better than years ago all increases the chances of horses going too fast in the early stages of the race. More speed, less horses taking the outside and all bunched together,to my mind equals a far greater risk of horses making mistakes and others being brought down. The course management has done everything it can to allow horses escape routes when running loose which has reduced the numbers which continue in the race, a huge improvement. The PC changes have in some ways made the course more not less dangerous IMO. Let's hope the 2013 race is a great spectacle with no injuries to horses or jockeys.


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## lachlanandmarcus (21 March 2013)

Very pleased to see on BBC sport that the GN will in future be watered so it is minimum good to soft or softer.means a slower race and a softer landing. Good news.

Now they need to put the fences back up to a proper height to reduce speed further and increase horses respect for them but sadly the ignorant but well intentioned won't let that happen....:-(


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## lcsd114 (21 March 2013)

That's good.  I just wish the coverage was still on the BBC .


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## lcsd114 (21 March 2013)

BigBuck's said:



			Actually this is the exact opposite of the current situation.  The race attracts better quality horses nowadays, such as the likes of Synchronised, Imperial Commander, Neptunes Collonges - all winners of or placed in the Gold Cup - to the point that the old situation of the bottom 3 or 4 horses being out of the handicap has gone.  These days you have to be allocated around 10-3 to have a chance of getting in.
		
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I'm not saying that there are no runners in the race that are suited.  I'm just saying that the "safety changes" have made it more attractive to owners with horses who have less experience and less form.


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## applecart14 (21 March 2013)

Its pointless even debating this.  Because if you say you don't like horse racing and think that the National is a 'cruel' race you will get shot down in flames anyway.

I dislike racing, the figures from RaceHorse Deathwatch say it all and will not be watching the National this year.  And that is all I have to say on this.  Sometimes its safer (boring, but safer) to sit on the fence.  And this is one of those times me thinks


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## dressedkez (22 March 2013)

I see that according the Daily Torygraph today, the course will be watered and the race will never be run on anything better than soft in the future. The year when it was firm and Mr Frisk won it - how many horses were killed that year? 
I do seem to recall that a year when it was bottomless - and I think that there were only a couple of finishers - did Red Maureder (sic)  win it? and were a couple re-mounted - Blowing Wind? Jenny Pitman lost one? Smiths something?
I am pro NH racing (love it) but is tinkering with the course really going to make a difference to possible fatalities? 
How many runners at Cheltenham 2013 - how many losses - one that I know of, odds on 150+ to one? How many fatalities have their been at points this season to date? 
No owner  / trainer / jockey wants a fatality - sadly it happens, just as a horse in a field can be fatally injured - I would hate to see the demise of NH racing and pointing et al - but as long as the media triumphs the losses, and we all 'try to mitigate' then we might as well stop all racing over fences now. Sadly I cannot see a solution that is going to keep the pro and anti lobby comfortable.


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## bonny (22 March 2013)

the ground has been watered since Mr Frisk won, he has the course record and the authorities said it would never be firm again so he'll always hold it.


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## lachlanandmarcus (22 March 2013)

dressedkez said:



			I see that according the Daily Torygraph today, the course will be watered and the race will never be run on anything better than soft in the future. The year when it was firm and Mr Frisk won it - how many horses were killed that year? 
I do seem to recall that a year when it was bottomless - and I think that there were only a couple of finishers - did Red Maureder (sic)  win it? and were a couple re-mounted - Blowing Wind? Jenny Pitman lost one? Smiths something?
I am pro NH racing (love it) but is tinkering with the course really going to make a difference to possible fatalities? 
How many runners at Cheltenham 2013 - how many losses - one that I know of, odds on 150+ to one? How many fatalities have their been at points this season to date? 
No owner  / trainer / jockey wants a fatality - sadly it happens, just as a horse in a field can be fatally injured - I would hate to see the demise of NH racing and pointing et al - but as long as the media triumphs the losses, and we all 'try to mitigate' then we might as well stop all racing over fences now. Sadly I cannot see a solution that is going to keep the pro and anti lobby comfortable.
		
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The reason they are doing the watering is that numerically yes it does make a difference to the number of serious injuries and fatalities. That is exactly why it is being done. I think that should be supported, because it is one thing they can do which will not ruin the spectacle but may well help with safety - not with stopping horses falling (there might even be more) but making sure when  they do it is at lower speed and onto a giving surface.

From memory the bottomless GN year only two finished (plus two remounted which I think wouldnt be allowed now) but none was seriously hurt that year. Stand to be corrected.


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## Honeylight (22 March 2013)

lachlanandmarcus said:



			The reason they are doing the watering is that numerically yes it does make a difference to the number of serious injuries and fatalities. That is exactly why it is being done. I think that should be supported, because it is one thing they can do which will not ruin the spectacle but may well help with safety - not with stopping horses falling (there might even be more) but making sure when  they do it is at lower speed and onto a giving surface.

From memory the bottomless GN year only two finished (plus two remounted which I think wouldnt be allowed now) but none was seriously hurt that year. Stand to be corrected.
		
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You are correct there were no fatalities that year, just tired muddy horses.


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## BigBuck's (22 March 2013)

lcsd114 said:



			I'm not saying that there are no runners in the race that are suited.  I'm just saying that the "safety changes" have made it more attractive to owners with horses who have less experience and less form.
		
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I think you may have misunderstood.  It's actually HARDER to get into the Grand National these days, not easier.  One of the changes referred to is a tightening of the qualification criteria.  The minimum age for a horse to run has been raised from six to seven years, so removing some of those "less experienced" horses immediately, and a horse has to have finished in the first four in a steeplechase over 3m or further.

The fact that the number of entries dropped from 102 in 2011 - the last year before the new qualification criteria was introduced - to 82 last year and 84 this year bears out the fact that fewer "unsuitable" horses are being entered in the first place.


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## Louise12 (25 March 2013)

Most good NH horses dont arrive by chance, although there is a much greater opportunity for the horse with the mediocre pedigree making it over jumps than there is on the Flat due to more owner/breeder/trainers being involved at all levels.
On the Pardubice: I have been, and have not seen any man behind each fence with a gun. If he is there I must be blind. The only massive fence on the course is the taxis, all the more difficult as it comes up very early in the race, but other than that the fences are more akin to Punchestown and other cross country courses.
I was about to say something about breeding and the National type, but couldnt have put it better than BigBucks. All I will add is that in UK/Eire most NH stallions are and always have been from the flat, so you cant really say that we are getting more flat. We are, however, getting more obsessed with the precocious individual, due mainly to the shift in ownership patterns, and this has seen the rise of the speedier, racier type. Mare owners are also possibly less knowledgeable than in previous eras, and more inclined to be led by marketing/fashion rather than use their own eyes and ears and learn about bloodlines. The French are much better at standing stallions who have been campaigned over obstacles than we are (although we do have some), and finally, the Germans apparently have strict criteria regarding a stallions soundness, so it is good to see German blood making its way into the NH scene. 
On the National itself, as mentioned by other posters, speed is one of the riskiest elements of NH racing (a huge problem at Cheltenham also when the ground is fast, compared with years when it is slow). This is the result of many things. People have already mentioned lower fences, better quality (faster) horses and drainage, but the sport is also highly professional these days, and both horses and jockeys are fitter. The good, fast, fit horse is not by definition the safest jumper, but he is the one most likely to qualify and run. Its just a different race now from the original, and for so many reasons.


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## flashmans (27 March 2013)

Not sure if this is new news, but I was just reading a bit on ATR and at the end of the article it says the maximum field is 30 runners... down 10 isn't it?

http://www.attheraces.com/article.aspx?ref=RSS+Feed&nav=news&hlid=533535&lid=PA+Racing+Feed&title=Alfie+out+of+Irish+National&utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter


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## lachlanandmarcus (27 March 2013)

flashmans said:



			Not sure if this is new news, but I was just reading a bit on ATR and at the end of the article it says the maximum field is 30 runners... down 10 isn't it?

http://www.attheraces.com/article.aspx?ref=RSS+Feed&nav=news&hlid=533535&lid=PA+Racing+Feed&title=Alfie+out+of+Irish+National&utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

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BBC news today still saying 40. The horses will be lined up well behind the tape and riders have been told that false starts and headlong rushes at the beginning of what is after all a 9 minute race won't be tolerated, also that they will be looking for them to make use of more of the course width.


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## flashmans (27 March 2013)

Thought it might not be true as hadn't heard it anywhere else! Wonder why ATR have said 30, maybe just an error


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## wowzer22 (3 April 2013)

Does anyone know when we find out which horse is allocated to which number (as we have a syndicate at work) - and we've all drawn NUMBERS?

Thanks


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## cptrayes (3 April 2013)

lachlanandmarcus said:



			riders have been told that false starts and headlong rushes at the beginning of what is after all a 9 minute race won't be tolerated,
		
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Are they simply supposed to ignore the fact that the safest place to be in a big field is at the front, then?


They do  it for a reason, the answer is either to pacemake  the first portion of the race or reduce the number in the field.


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## cptrayes (3 April 2013)

Double_choc_lab said:



			I believe why there was such an outcry after last years race was due to the camera coverage.
		
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no, it was due to the horse deaths!

There would have been nothing for the cameras to see if the horses had not died. 

What you mean, surely, is that you want the deaths hidden so that the public do not see them and get upset about them.

 You cannot have this argument both ways. Either the deaths are acceptable and we should all see them as they are, or they are not. Suggesting that they should be hidden, as several posters have, just shows how wrong the people involved know that they are.


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## cptrayes (3 April 2013)

Alec Swan said:



			It may appear that I've such a vendetta,  but that isn't the case.  What amazes me is that such an inept,  and from the equine,  the jump aspect and the the racing perspective,  that the rspca's opinion is given any credibility,  is beyond me,  and others too,  I suspect.  The opinions of jockeys and trainers would be of far greater value.



And behind every race,  here in the UK,  a man with a gun follows.  He's called a vet.

Alec.
		
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Alec if the RSPCA came along and told you to do something to a horse of yours which you knew was wrong, would you do it? No, of course you would not.

So how is the RSPCA to blame if Aintree are stupid enough to make changes that they know make the race more dangerous???


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## Alec Swan (3 April 2013)

cptrayes said:



			Alec if the RSPCA came along and told you to do something to a horse of yours which you knew was wrong, would you do it? No, of course you would not.

So how is the RSPCA to blame if Aintree are stupid enough to make changes that they know make the race more dangerous???
		
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An interesting question.......

....in short,  those who've accepted the advice of a collection of well intentioned clowns,  have indeed,  been stupid.  Stupid in that they have acquiesced,  and whilst doing so,  empowered a group who whilst having no experience,  or interest in horses or racing,  are seen as having an opinion which is of value.  

Horse racing should be administered to,  monitored by,  and overseen,  by the Jockey Club,  but there was a most able man,  who a few years ago referred to the JC board,  as being spineless,  and he was right.

How those with authority can cosy up to idiots,  is beyond me.

Alec.


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## TelH (3 April 2013)

wowzer22 said:



			Does anyone know when we find out which horse is allocated to which number (as we have a syndicate at work) - and we've all drawn NUMBERS?

Thanks
		
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Tomorrow (morning I think)


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## LittleRooketRider (4 April 2013)

My point of view is based on the fact that I know as a rider if a horse doesn't want to do something, noboy is ever gonna be able to get it to it...simple as. That is why I think the GN should continue because at the end of the day the horses love it, its what they are bred for. Yes, I think alterations since the original fences e.g. bechers do make it more safe but I think changes need to stop because as many of you have already said as the fences get smaller the race gets faster.

Besides, I sometimes wonder how many of the 'protestors'/ RSPCA people have ever actually ridden/ have anything to do with horses?!


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## Baggybreeches (4 April 2013)

Absolutely fascinated by the advice imparted by those who have obviously ridden in plenty of races.............


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## Gamebird (4 April 2013)

Alec Swan said:



			And behind every race,  here in the UK,  a man with a gun follows.  He's called a vet.
		
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And sometimes, very occasionally, it's a woman with a gun


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## MotherOfChickens (4 April 2013)

LittleRocketRider said:



			My point of view is based on the fact that I know as a rider if a horse doesn't want to do something, noboy is ever gonna be able to get it to it...simple as.
		
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really, people still believe that?


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## fburton (4 April 2013)

peteralfred said:



			really, people still believe that?
		
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I certainly don't. It's pretty obvious to anyone that knows horses that, on the whole, they are highly compliant, easily coerced/trained animals. That is how they have been bred to be.

Furthermore, I don't believe that horses race _because_ they love to do it. It's not as simple as that, and anyone who thinks so has their head in anthropomorphic la-la clouds, in my opinion.


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## MotherOfChickens (4 April 2013)

fburton said:



			I certainly don't. It's pretty obvious to anyone that knows horses that, on the whole, they are highly compliant, easily coerced/trained animals. That is how they have been bred to be.

Furthermore, I don't believe that horses race _because_ they love to do it. It's not as simple as that, and anyone who thinks so has their head in anthropomorphic la-la clouds, in my opinion.
		
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quite-and I'm not a bunny hugger, horses need to have jobs-its just where the line is drawn.


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## Daffodil (4 April 2013)

I love my racing, love Cheltenham and all other meetings and mainly follow the jumps, BUT I LOATHE THE NATIONAL AND ALL RACES OVER THE NATIONAL COURSE.


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## Amymay (4 April 2013)

BigBuck's said:



			I think you may have misunderstood.  It's actually HARDER to get into the Grand National these days, not easier.
		
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In any national there are a small handful of horses who have the potential to run a really good race.

The rest merely make up the field.

Reading the race cards, and pundits comments, certainly makes for interesting reading, and you have to wonder how many of the horses in any way qualified to be entered.


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## Alec Swan (4 April 2013)

Daffodil said:



			I love my racing, love Cheltenham and all other meetings and mainly follow the jumps, BUT I LOATHE THE NATIONAL AND ALL RACES OVER THE NATIONAL COURSE.
		
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That's interesting.  Do you watch the race?  I could never put a horse through such an ordeal,  but the race,  itself,  has become a religion!

Alec.


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## Caledonia (4 April 2013)

amymay said:



			In any national there are a small handful of horses who have the potential to run a really good race.

The rest merely make up the field.

Reading the race cards, and pundits comments certainly makes for interesting reading, and you have to wonder how many of the horses in any way qualified to be entered.
		
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Go on then - what horses aren't qualified? And what's the criteria for qualification?


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## Amymay (4 April 2013)

Caledonia said:



			Go on then - what horses aren't qualified? And what's the criteria for qualification?
		
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Clearly all the horses listed as running _are_ qualified 

And yes, I'll hold my hand up and say that apart from what's readily available on the net: minimum age - seven,  runners must have finished fourth or better in a steeplechase of at least three miles, I have no real idea what the entry requirement for each horse is.

But you do have to do have to wonder why horses who have no form are allowed to run the most challenging race.


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## Caledonia (4 April 2013)

amymay said:



			Clearly all the horses listed as running _are_ qualified 

And yes, I'll hold my hand up and say that apart from what's readily available on the net: minimum age - seven,  runners must have finished fourth or better in a steeplechase of at least three miles, I have no real idea what the entry requirement for each horse is.

But you do have to do have to wonder why horses who have no form are allowed to run the most challenging race.
		
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So which ones do you consider to have no form, and why?


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## Amymay (4 April 2013)

Caledonia said:



			So which ones do you consider to have no form, and why?
		
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Weird Al - PF4PP
Mumbles Head - 1133FP
Tatenen -  5U676
Auroras Encore -  0P45F5
Pentiffic -  770165


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## Caledonia (4 April 2013)

amymay said:



			Weird Al - PF4PP
Mumbles Head - 1133FP
Tatenen -  5U676
Auroras Encore -  0P45F5
Pentiffic -  770165
		
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Pentiffic -  770165 - is a reserve.
Auroras Encore - immediate recent form not great, but was 2nd in the Scottish National less than a year ago. 
Tatenen - won just over a year ago, and his last run you can ignore as he was hampered twice and still finished 6th at Chelts out of 23 runners. 
Mumbles Head - has been off since Dec last year on the back of a F and a PU, so would agree that is a worry - that said, his form before that was fine, so maybe he had a niggle that's been sorted. 

There's horses in the race that I'd be more bothered about than those form wise.


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## Amymay (4 April 2013)

Caledonia said:



			There's horses in the race that I'd be more bothered about than those form wise.
		
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Oh, yes - I'd agree.  Just easier to put those down here who most immediately looked as if they perhaps shouldn't be. 

Either way, I look forward to Saturday, and hope that my beautiful Imperial Commander comes home safely and in front!


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## Caledonia (4 April 2013)

amymay said:



			Oh, yes - I'd agree.  Just easier to put those down here who most immediately looked as if they perhaps shouldn't be. 

Either way, I look forward to Saturday, and hope that my beautiful Imperial Commander comes home safely and in front!
		
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Sorry, forgot Weird Al - he hates soft ground, and will be far better on a sound surface. He ran well last year until he tipped up. 

I can't see IC winning, but he is class!


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## Daffodil (4 April 2013)

Alec:   I'm torn between needing to know what happens - and watching it, and running away from the whole thing, having recorded it to see later if they all come home safely.

Still haven't decided what to do on Saturday (or the other races over the National course either!)


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## wench (4 April 2013)

I love it and will be watching it all on the tv


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## teapot (4 April 2013)

All horses up after falls in the Foxhunters, including the one covered in foliage!


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## Elf On A Shelf (4 April 2013)

Well done to wee Jamie and Tartan Snow! 100/1! Wish I had put some money on him now!!!


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## amage (4 April 2013)

teapot said:



			All horses up after falls in the Foxhunters, including the one covered in foliage!
		
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Battlefront went down after he pulled up. Looked to be fairly significant damage...hope he's ok


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## teapot (4 April 2013)

amage said:



			Battlefront went down after he pulled up. Looked to be fairly significant damage...hope he's ok
		
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Didn't see that - fingers crossed 

ETS: bad news


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## amage (4 April 2013)

teapot said:



			Didn't see that - fingers crossed 

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The way he was wobbling it looked like a heart attack and certainly watching the rerun it sadly looks like he is gone.


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## Elf On A Shelf (4 April 2013)

Unfortunately Battlefront died


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## amage (4 April 2013)

amage said:



			The way he was wobbling it looked like a heart attack and certainly watching the rerun it sadly looks like he is gone.
		
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Been confirmed that after a serious injury he sadly collapsed and died. He has been a super super horse for the Walsh family. RIP Battlefront.


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## Horselover39 (4 April 2013)

He's gone....Bloody awful......
Wonder what the Hell is going to happen on Saturday.


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## Elf On A Shelf (4 April 2013)

I don't think C4 needed to say as much as they did about it as it will just give more ammunition for those who don't like the National. Yes the Foxhunters is run over the fences but this race is much shorter with a completely different quality of horse to the National itself.


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## teapot (4 April 2013)

Thing is, you can't blame fences/ground conditions/speed/colour of the grass if it was a heart attack. 

But guess the numpties don't realise this


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## Emma86 (4 April 2013)

Very sad, but they have just confirmed he didn't fall, Katie pulled him up and he then collapsed.

Meant to add, It wont make a difference how he died to people that want to add another death to their statistics of the anti National campaign


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## bonny (4 April 2013)

teapot said:



			Thing is, you can't blame fences/ground conditions/speed/colour of the grass if it was a heart attack. 

But guess the numpties don't realise this 

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Well said....it was a brilliant race and a brilliant result and a heart attack can happen anywhere....I thought the all the jumps rode well although some of them look much easier than before and some of them still up to height which maybe caught some of them out. Great that it was won by a small northern stable who beat all the big trainers.


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## alliersv1 (4 April 2013)

I was hoping for an incident free day, but sadly it was not to be.
RIP to Battlefront. I hope his suffering was brief.


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## Caledonia (4 April 2013)

So desperately sad for Katie and Ted - a small yard like that will really feel it. 

RIP, Battlefront.


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## fburton (4 April 2013)

bonny said:



			a heart attack can happen anywhere
		
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Presumably it's more likely to happen during exertion though?


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## Horselover39 (4 April 2013)

Out of interest. Where do fatalities go from Aintree?


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## bonny (4 April 2013)

Horselover39 said:



			Out of interest. Where do fatalities go from Aintree?
		
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There was a rumour during the horsemeat scandal that they ended up in pies although the authorities denied it, not surprisingly.


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## alliersv1 (4 April 2013)

Daffodil said:



			Alec:   I'm torn between needing to know what happens - and watching it, and running away from the whole thing, having recorded it to see later if they all come home safely.

Still haven't decided what to do on Saturday (or the other races over the National course either!)
		
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I'm usually the same. If I'm off work, I somehow manage to sit through it, peeping through my fingers, with my heart in my mouth. Enjoying the spectacle, but willing them all back safely at the same time.
This year, my (horsey!) friend, has rather selfishly decided to renew her wedding vows at 4pm on the day!
I will be at the do all evening, and am out on a hunt ride on Sunday, so will have to try and avoid all news/social media until I get a chance to watch it, because a) I don't want to know the winner, and B) I won't want to see it if something bad happens.

Something tells me I may fail in this quest!


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## alliersv1 (4 April 2013)

bonny said:



			There was a rumour during the horsemeat scandal that they ended up in pies although the authorities denied it, not surprisingly.
		
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Wasn't one of the dodgy owners of one of the horsemeat plants quoted as saying they took horses away from Aintree?

I can't imagine there's a racehorse in the land that hasn't has some "not for human consumption" drug or another.


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## Horselover39 (4 April 2013)

Yes there was.....
So where do they go???
Who collects them???


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## Caledonia (4 April 2013)

bonny said:



			There was a rumour during the horsemeat scandal that they ended up in pies although the authorities denied it, not surprisingly.
		
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The only horses that go for human consumption have to be slaughtered in an abattoir. They certainly won't be using bodies that have lain in the dead truck all day.


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## bonny (4 April 2013)

Caledonia said:



			The only horses that go for human consumption have to be slaughtered in an abattoir. They certainly won't be using bodies that have lain in the dead truck all day.
		
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I only said it was a rumour.....not that it was true ! I imagine they are incinerated.


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## Caledonia (4 April 2013)

fburton said:



			Presumably it's more likely to happen during exertion though?
		
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Horses have heart attacks in fields. Out hacking. Out hunting. In a stable. So no, like people, they can have a heart attack anywhere if their time is up.


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## teapot (4 April 2013)

fburton said:



			Presumably it's more likely to happen during exertion though?
		
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Possibly but not 100% definitely. Could quite easily happen on the gallops at home or in a stable, or walking back to the yard.

You CANNOT blame a course of fences for the cause of a heart attack but methinks that's what is going to happen given it's the National meeting and it was during a race over the GN fences. 

Just feel sad for the team and the lad/lass with an empty box


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## Elf On A Shelf (4 April 2013)

Most horses from racecourses will go for cremation. It is very rare, and hugely exspensive to take one home to bury. Some will go for PM's first - in the case of heart attacks or if there was anything suspicious about the horses injuries (that's how Howard Johnson got caught out).


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## fburton (4 April 2013)

Caledonia said:



			Horses have heart attacks in fields. Out hacking. Out hunting. In a stable. So no, like people, they can have a heart attack anywhere if their time is up.
		
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So _not_ more likely when exercising. Hmm, interesting.


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## Baggybreeches (4 April 2013)

fburton said:



			Presumably it's more likely to happen during exertion though?
		
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Not necessarily so if you haven't anything valid to say keep your ****wit opinions to yourself


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## Horselover39 (4 April 2013)

The rumour was that it was P. Boddy of Todmorden that collected them. Is this still the fact or would it be Turners.


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## bonny (4 April 2013)

fburton said:



			So _not_ more likely when exercising. Hmm, interesting.
		
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That's not strictly true, horses do not have heart attacks the same as people do and when it happens it is far more likely to happen after exertion.


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## Horselover39 (4 April 2013)

Could quite easily happen on the gallops at home or in the yard TEAPOT get Real!!!!!


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## Elf On A Shelf (4 April 2013)

As a complete turn around of the current argument for better times:

My ginger square Tap Night has just come 2nd to Captain Conan at Aintree in the Novices Chase    Cracking run, only slightly miffed as we beat CC at Kelso last year but hey ho! Rock On The Tap Night!!!


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## Caledonia (4 April 2013)

Horselover39 said:



			The rumour was that it was P. Boddy of Todmorden that collected them. Is this still the fact or would it be Turners.
		
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P Boddy acted as a knackerman and as an abattoir. So in his capacity as knackerman he would uplift carcasses from the racecourse. 

Mostly the racecourses use their local knackerman to uplift. The reason that JHJ was found out is because the Bush vet hospital routinely takes and examines the limbs of horses that have suffered catastrophic limb injuries at Musselburgh, and studies them.


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## alliersv1 (4 April 2013)

EKW said:



			As a complete turn around of the current argument for better times:

My ginger square Tap Night has just come 2nd to Captain Conan at Aintree in the Novices Chase    Cracking run, only slightly miffed as we beat CC at Kelso last year but hey ho! Rock On The Tap Night!!!
		
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Congrats EKW!


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## fburton (4 April 2013)

Baggybreeches said:



			Not necessarily so if you haven't anything valid to say keep your ****wit opinions to yourself
		
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Well either it is or it isn't, and presumably this is known?! I thought it was a reasonable question. Your rudeness was totally uncalled for.


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## Caledonia (4 April 2013)

EKW said:



			As a complete turn around of the current argument for better times:

My ginger square Tap Night has just come 2nd to Captain Conan at Aintree in the Novices Chase    Cracking run, only slightly miffed as we beat CC at Kelso last year but hey ho! Rock On The Tap Night!!!
		
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Great run - he stayed so well - up in trip again? !!!


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## Caledonia (4 April 2013)

fburton said:



			Well either it is or it isn't, and presumably this is known?!
		
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Why would it be so black and white in horses when it isn't in people? It's a poor attempt on your part to insinuate fault in the race.


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## Elf On A Shelf (4 April 2013)

Caledonia said:



			Great run - he stayed so well - up in trip again? !!!
		
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National horse in the making?!?

In all seriousness the day I met him I couldn't stop laughing! The previous horse that Jane had sent us from America was a stunningly pretty grey with supermodel legs! We picked Tap up from Ayr in January in a stableyard full of stripped, clipped racefit horses and there, in the corner travellers box was quite literally a ginger square! He was so fat you could barely tell his head from his back end, his coat could rival a shetlands and his mane was just wild! He's stripped down well


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## silu (4 April 2013)

For those old enough to remember Wide Awake,he had a heart attack and died during his lap of honor having just won Badminton. The reaction was nothing but sympathy for Lucinda Green and not an immediate call for Badminton to be abolished as being too much of a strain/dangerous for horses. When it's NH there seems very little sympathy for connections, double standards? which I fail to understand.RIP Battlefront.


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## Caledonia (4 April 2013)

EKW said:



			National horse in the making?!?

In all seriousness the day I met him I couldn't stop laughing! The previous horse that Jane had sent us from America was a stunningly pretty grey with supermodel legs! We picked Tap up from Ayr in January in a stableyard full of stripped, clipped racefit horses and there, in the corner travellers box was quite literally a ginger square! He was so fat you could barely tell his head from his back end, his coat could rival a shetlands and his mane was just wild! He's stripped down well 

Click to expand...

LOL - he jumped great! Will be interesting to see what AP feeds back! Great job by the yard!


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## Amymay (4 April 2013)

Congrats Ekw


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## amage (4 April 2013)

Massive Congrats EKW


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## Baggybreeches (4 April 2013)

fburton said:



			Well either it is or it isn't, and presumably this is known?! I thought it was a reasonable question. Your rudeness was totally uncalled for. 

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The tone of your question was objectionable, nothing is black and white with horse's hearts they can literally drop dead standing in the stable or field, the reason we think/assume it's more common in races is because we are all watching, we don't find out how many horses have dropped dead in the stable or field today, I would suggest it would be the same if not more than those who died at exercise today.


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## fburton (4 April 2013)

Caledonia said:



			Why would it be so black and white in horses when it isn't in people? It's a poor attempt on your part to insinuate fault in the race.
		
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With respect, Caledonia, that's a load of rubbish! I wasn't trying to insinuate fault in the race at all. What I was (and am still) trying to find out is the additional risk to horses of heart attack (if any) associated with running in races in general. Is that such an unreasonable request? 

Of course it's not black and white - I would never expect it to be. What I _would_ expect is that extreme exertion increases the risk of heart attacks.


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## fburton (4 April 2013)

Baggybreeches said:



			The tone of your question was objectionable, nothing is black and white with horse's hearts they can literally drop dead standing in the stable or field, the reason we think/assume it's more common in races is because we are all watching, we don't find out how many horses have dropped dead in the stable or field today, I would suggest it would be the same if not more than those who died at exercise today.
		
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Good grief! That is precisely what I am trying to ascertain. You may interpret my 'tone' any way you like, but even if you find what I write irritating (as I am sure we _all_ do with some of this forum's posts) is it really necessary to stoop to name-calling?


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## teapot (4 April 2013)

Congrats EKW 

As for 'Could quite easily happen on the gallops at home or in the yard TEAPOT get Real!!!!!'

I am being real, very real. A horse can have a heart attack anywhere. Here's one such example: http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/news/397/271231.html

You cannot lay all the blame on a race and a racecourse. 


This weekend could be rather testing on this forum I feel...


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## Dab (4 April 2013)

fburton said:



			With respect, Caledonia, that's a load of rubbish! I wasn't trying to insinuate fault in the race at all. What I was (and am still) trying to find out is the additional risk to horses of heart attack (if any) associated with running in races in general. Is that such an unreasonable request? 

Of course it's not black and white - I would never expect it to be. What I _would_ expect is that extreme exertion increases the risk of heart attacks.
		
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interesting, what about applying the same theory to unfit over weight horses, who are pulled out of a field and suddenly worked? do they have greater chance of suffering a heart attack? or is it just racing that you are interested in?


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## Caledonia (4 April 2013)

fburton said:



			With respect, Caledonia, that's a load of rubbish! I wasn't trying to insinuate fault in the race at all. What I was (and am still) trying to find out is the additional risk to horses of heart attack (if any) associated with running in races in general. Is that such an unreasonable request? 

Of course it's not black and white - I would never expect it to be. What I _would_ expect is that extreme exertion increases the risk of heart attacks.
		
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Nope, not rubbish. You're not nearly as clever as you think you are by pretending your posts are innocent questions when every time racing is mentioned you make a poor fist of inferring racing is at fault. 

And you are the one that said Well either it is or it isn't, and presumably this is known?!. That's the same as saying black or white.


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## fburton (4 April 2013)

Caledonia said:



			Nope, not rubbish. You're not nearly as clever as you think you are by pretending your posts are innocent questions when every time racing is mentioned you make a poor fist of inferring racing is at fault.
		
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Oh... whatever!  You've obviously made up your mind about my motives - I'm not going to convince you otherwise (and why should I anyway?).

I've never hidden the fact that there are aspects of racing which I dislike. Also, I'm liable to question any statement I think is false or inaccurate whether it's to do with racing or anything else - e.g. that horses running in races has nothing to do with the flight instinct (I believe it was you who said that). Finally, if you were to examine what I've written on the subject of the Grand National, you would see me agreeing with statements like "I don't want to see the National banned, but I don't think that these deaths should be shrugged off as part and parcel of racing either.  We need to find out exactly what were the factors that resulted in this horses falling and dying and use that knowledge to try and improve the race in future." 




			And you are the one that said Well either it is or it isn't, and presumably this is known?!. That's the same as saying black or white.
		
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You misunderstood - I meant either heart attacks are more likely during exertion or they aren't. You said they aren't; bonny said they are. It has to be one or the other - it can't be both! 'Black and white' would be if heart attacks _only_ occurred during extreme exertion and never at any other time, and I certainly don't believe that.


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## fburton (4 April 2013)

Dab said:



			interesting, what about applying the same theory to unfit over weight horses, who are pulled out of a field and suddenly worked? do they have greater chance of suffering a heart attack? or is it just racing that you are interested in?
		
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It wouldn't surprise me in the least if unfit, overweight horses were more prone to heart attacks. And no, it's not just racing I'm interested in - but that's what this thread is about.


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## Dab (4 April 2013)

fburton said:



			With respect, Caledonia, that's a load of rubbish! I wasn't trying to insinuate fault in the race at all. What I was (and am still) trying to find out is the *additional risk to horses of heart attack (if any) associated with running in races* in general. Is that such an unreasonable request? 

Of course it's not black and white - I would never expect it to be. What I _would_ expect is that extreme exertion increases the risk of heart attacks.
		
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fburton said:



			It wouldn't surprise me in the least if unfit, overweight horses were more prone to heart attacks. And no, it's not just racing I'm interested in - but that's what this thread is about.
		
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this thread might be about racing (GN) but you said you were trying to find out if there was additional risk to horses of heart attack associated with running in races there by you would need to consider all aspects other than just racing to ascertain if there was an associated additional risk


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## bonny (4 April 2013)

Horses don't have heart attacks like people do.....so being unfit or overweight does not make them more likely to have one.....it seems to happen with excertion, usually at the end of a race .....


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## Dab (4 April 2013)

bonny said:



			Horses don't have heart attacks like people do.....so being unfit or overweight does not make them more likely to have one.....it seems to happen with excertion, usually at the end of a race .....
		
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HI Bonny, can you explain further what you mean that horses dont suffer heart attacks like people? in what way?

are you saying that a fat and unfit horse that was exerted is just equally unlikely to suffer a heart attack as a horse that is fit and not over weight?


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## bonny (4 April 2013)

Dab said:



			HI Bonny, can you explain further what you mean that horses dont suffer heart attacks like people? in what way?

are you saying that a fat and unfit horse that was exerted is just equally unlikely to suffer a heart attack as a horse that is fit and not over weight?
		
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Horse's don't have heart attacks....they can suffer a major burst of a blood vessel which is always fatal. In all bar one of the horses that I've known it was at the end of a race, doesn't mean it can't happen in a stable or whatever but personally I've never known that happen.


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## happyhunter123 (4 April 2013)

Very sorry to hear of the loss of Battlefront, but it annoys the hell out of me that people are making such as fuss of it simply because it's Aintree and it's the National meeting. Look at what all of the papers are focusing on-this, instead of some of the great racing we had today.
Supposing a horse had had a heart attack at, say, Lingfield AW last week, would anyone much care? Would the course and the circumstances be scrutinised by press and public? No. It's ridiculous. 
I'm still saddened by it, as I am with every casualty, but the press are making too much of a thing about it.


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## Elf On A Shelf (4 April 2013)

It's Tartan Snow and wee Jaimie I feel for. He had his first ride over the National fences and won at 100/1 - normally that would be the main story but instead the main focus is on the death of Battlefront.


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## Cuffey (4 April 2013)

Personally I would equate what happened to Battlefront today with what frequently happens at eg the London Marathon when a perfectly fit and healthy young runner suddenly collapses without any prior warning.

If you check Battlefronts career, he was not raced before 5 yo and had won a whole string of Open Point to Points last year which are often run in 'more natural ground conditions'' than a properly prepared racecourse. 

Clearly a horse who really enjoyed his job.

 RIP Battlefront your family will miss you greatly.


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## cptrayes (4 April 2013)

bonny said:



			Horses don't have heart attacks like people do.....so being unfit or overweight does not make them more likely to have one.....it seems to happen with excertion, usually at the end of a race .....
		
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I'm sorry but I think that this is nonsense. I have been on a horse which ruptured and he dropped like a stone.

I have also seen two horses have heart attacks and they staggered and kicked and were quite obviously alive and in considerable pain and distress for a long time before dying.


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## silu (4 April 2013)

happyhunter123 said:



			Very sorry to hear of the loss of Battlefront, but it annoys the hell out of me that people are making such as fuss of it simply because it's Aintree and it's the National meeting. Look at what all of the papers are focusing on-this, instead of some of the great racing we had today.
Supposing a horse had had a heart attack at, say, Lingfield AW last week, would anyone much care? Would the course and the circumstances be scrutinised by press and public? No. It's ridiculous. 
I'm still saddened by it, as I am with every casualty, but the press are making too much of a thing about it.
		
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That's exactly the point I made in my post. The minute I heard there had been a fatality over The National Fences, I had a little bet with myself (about the only bet I've ever won!) that the sad fact would be the main topic of today's racing.  As an example Do it for Dalkey had a heart attack and died recently after winning a race. Was this fact splattered all over the press? NO. As I said before apart from sympathy; was there a huge uproar when Lucinda Green's Wide Awake collapsed and died during his lap of honor after winning Badminton? NO. I had a pony (aged 18 fit, NOT FAT and healthy) die over night in our field from a heart attack.

The National is an easy target BECAUSE it is the public eye. If any of you have ever evented at a reasobably high level you will know only too well that many horses get hurt (failed trot up/ not presented) but these incidents aren't headline news so eventing's image isn't tarnished. All horse fatalities/ injuries are regrettable, I just struggle with the hipocrisy.


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## cptrayes (4 April 2013)

I also agree that the death of this horse today was not primarily caused by it being in an NH race at the time. It really is just one of those things that happen to horses of all ages from time to time.


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## Echo Bravo (4 April 2013)

Cytrayes, just shut up.


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## cptrayes (4 April 2013)

Echo Bravo said:



			Cytrayes, just shut up.
		
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If you have to be so offensive can you at least spell my name right?


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## Echo Bravo (4 April 2013)

Sorry Cptrayes, just shut up. good enough for you.


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## Fools Motto (4 April 2013)

cptrayes said:



			I also agree that the death of this horse today was not primarily caused by it being in an NH race at the time. It really is just one of those things that happen to horses of all ages from time to time.
		
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Agree with you.


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## cptrayes (4 April 2013)

Echo Bravo said:



			Sorry Cptrayes, just shut up. good enough for you.
		
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If you do not want to read my posts please use the ignore function. That is what it is for.


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## Alec Swan (4 April 2013)

Echo Bravo said:



			Sorry Cptrayes, just shut up. good enough for you.
		
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E_B,  I'm sorry but there's no need for that.

I happen to agree with cpt,  but that's academic,  there's little to be gained,  by issuing instructions.

Alec.


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## Echo Bravo (4 April 2013)

Sorry but it was Cptrayes answer to Bonny that got to me.


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## bonny (4 April 2013)

Echo Bravo said:



			Sorry but it was Cptrayes answer to Bonny that got to me.

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Thanks .....I was right but Cptrayes is the fountain of all knowledge !


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## Alec Swan (4 April 2013)

bonny said:



			Thanks .....I was right but Cptrayes is the fountain of all knowledge !
		
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I'll agree with you that cpt can be an irritating old bag,  and I've certainly had my run-ins with her,  but her opinions are of worth,  they are entitled to consideration,  and to dismiss her,  out of hand,  because you don't agree with her,  is crass,  and wrong.

There are some idiots on here,  but cptrayes isn't one of them.

Alec.


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## bonny (4 April 2013)

I didn't dismiss her, I said she was the fountain of all knowledge........


although maybe not on heart failure in racehorses !!


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## Alec Swan (4 April 2013)

bonny said:



			I didn't dismiss her, I said she was the fountain of all knowledge........


although maybe not on heart failure in racehorses !!
		
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OK,  neither am I,  so I'll give in to that! 

Actually,  a horse when it suffers a heart attack,  probably isn't the same as,  say a human.  A ruptured heart-part is generally fatal,  and in truth,  when my end comes,  that'll do for me! 

Alec.


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## Amymay (4 April 2013)

Actually bonny, it's always worth paying attention to what cptrayes says. She usually speaks a lot of sense, and has probably forgotten what many of us have yet to learn when it comes to horses.


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## Laura_Grey (4 April 2013)

EKW said:



			National horse in the making?!?

In all seriousness the day I met him I couldn't stop laughing! The previous horse that Jane had sent us from America was a stunningly pretty grey with supermodel legs! We picked Tap up from Ayr in January in a stableyard full of stripped, clipped racefit horses and there, in the corner travellers box was quite literally a ginger square! He was so fat you could barely tell his head from his back end, his coat could rival a shetlands and his mane was just wild! He's stripped down well 

Click to expand...

Congrats! He ran a blinder, CC wasn't for beating today. 

We were over the moon with a running on 3rd in the last...at 33-1 too. Bring on the Topham tomorrow.


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## bonny (4 April 2013)

She doesn't know much about racing, as she herself says....
All I said is that horses don't have heart attacks the same as people do .....and that's a fact !


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## cptrayes (4 April 2013)

bonny said:



			She doesn't know much about racing, as she herself says....
All I said is that horses don't have heart attacks the same as people do .....and that's a fact !
		
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OK lets argue over the semantics of the word 'attack' then.

Horses do not suffer from coronary heart disease like humans do.

Horses do suffer from a number of other conditions which result in a relatively slow death from heart failure (minutes) that everyone I know would describe as a heart attack. Your statement that heart failure in horses is always due to rupture was incorrect. 

I have personally experienced one case of rupture and seen two cases of 'heart attack', and the way the horse dies is completely different.


Given my known dislike of NH racing deaths I was pretty astonished by being got at by two people after saying that this death was not caused by racing


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## Elf On A Shelf (4 April 2013)

Children! Children! Put the wooden spoons down! This thread isn't about who is right and who is wrong, it's about the runners, riders and press failures of the 2013 National meeting.

Oh and Tap and Hammy Hamster who won the last


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## bonny (4 April 2013)

no, let's not argue, life is too short !


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## Ancient Hacker (4 April 2013)

Well, to digress from the debate, why not have a look at the Daily Mail coverage of the "fashion".  I know I really, really shouldn't, but my first stop for information on major race days in the UK is, indeed the Daily Mail.

It's quite odd; I visit the UK a lot and generally the vast majority of people seem quite normal to me. But NOT through the lense of the Mail photographers!


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## fburton (5 April 2013)

happyhunter123 said:



			Very sorry to hear of the loss of Battlefront, but it annoys the hell out of me that people are making such as fuss of it simply because it's Aintree and it's the National meeting. Look at what all of the papers are focusing on-this, instead of some of the great racing we had today.
Supposing a horse had had a heart attack at, say, Lingfield AW last week, would anyone much care? Would the course and the circumstances be scrutinised by press and public? No. It's ridiculous. 
I'm still saddened by it, as I am with every casualty, but the press are making too much of a thing about it.
		
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It annoys me too that the press and public concentrate on just this one race, although they do it for understandable reasons.

Speaking personally, if there was a thread about Lingfield AW and the subject of fatalities came up in the same way, I would have posted about it in the same way - assuming I read the thread, of course. Ditto if it was a general thread about racing fatalities. For me, the fact that it's the GN is _totally irrelevant_, although I recognize it is much more in the public eye. (However, it isn't the public who are reading this, is it? Probably just as well!) However, I certainly do care, whether it's a big name race or not.


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## fburton (5 April 2013)

cptrayes said:



			I have also seen two horses have heart attacks and they staggered and kicked and were quite obviously alive and in considerable pain and distress for a long time before dying.
		
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There is or was a video on Youtube (shot by spectators a tad ghoulishly imo) of a racehorse collapsing on the course and lying breathing for what seems like an age until the vet arrived, though I think it was only a minute. I couldn't tell if the horse was in pain or distress, but it looked like it was still breathing. I would like to know if this was an aortic rupture or a different kind of 'cardiac incident'. Given how suddenly the went down suggests the first to me - but then ventricular fibrillation, assuming that occurs in horses too, would have a similarly sudden effect.


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## Baggybreeches (5 April 2013)

Having seen very close at first hand, a horse that has gone down with a rupture/heart attack post race they do 'appear' from a distance to still be breathing, but they are usually gone by the time they hit the ground, I would suggest this would be the case yesterday.


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## Amymay (5 April 2013)

Radio 2 will be discussing the GN after 12.00 today.


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## MurphysMinder (5 April 2013)

Oh gawd, does that mean more sensationalist crap from Jeremy Vine!


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## Caledonia (5 April 2013)

MurphysMinder said:



			Oh gawd, does that mean more sensationalist crap from Jeremy Vine!
		
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Undoubtedly ....

ETA, - I googled to see if there was a way to comment and it seems to be someone else - 

Jane Garvey sits in for Jeremy, presenting news, views and live guests.

FIRST BROADCAST: 12 Apr 2013


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## Leaf (6 April 2013)

amymay said:



			Weird Al - PF4PP
Mumbles Head - 1133FP
Tatenen -  5U676
Auroras Encore -  0P45F5
Pentiffic -  770165
		
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Bet you wished you backed it now


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## Potato! (6 April 2013)

All horses come back safe!


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## GrumpyHero (6 April 2013)

Brilliant that all runners are back safe!!


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## pines of rome (6 April 2013)

So pleased they have all come back!


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## Noodles_3 (6 April 2013)

Can totally breathe a sigh of relief! That was a MUCH better race!


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## Caledonia (6 April 2013)

Fantastic race!!


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## silu (6 April 2013)

Delighted that everybody is home safe and not the debacle of last year. However I don't think the GN can still be deemed the greatest steeplechase. As Barry Geraghty confirmed what I thought I was watching, horses were taking serious liberites with fences and getting away with it. Knew when I walked the course before last years National that the course was a shadow of it's former self. From now on true tests of horses jumping ability will be confined to Cheltenham (even those fences have been softened), the GN will be the preserve of ultimate stayers (the course will continue to be made artifically good to soft at best) with not too much weight, their jumping ability will not be a priority.


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## Elf On A Shelf (6 April 2013)

The fences are a shadow of their former self. There were horses at the back jumping what were basically hurdle height fences once all of the flumf had been brushed off. It didn't take much jumping. 

I kind of feel a bit deflated after this years National. I know I will probably get shot down in flames for this but there was no carnage.
 It just made it another race. As much as I admire the Smiths and love Ryan the horses owner buys horses specifically for the race every year rather than bring one up through the ranks - though it has paid off this time! And I also don't like the guy that looks after the winner but that's personal lol!

Glad they all came home safe.


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## Maesfen (6 April 2013)

I actually thought it was a rubbish race with exactly the same sentiments as EKW and Silu.

It's a shadow of what it was, just seems a simple long distance chase now, nothing special about it at all.


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## Ktrice1994 (6 April 2013)

Maesfen said:



			I actually thought it was a rubbish race with exactly the same sentiments as EKW and Silu.

It's a shadow of what it was, just seems a simple long distance chase now, nothing special about it at all.
		
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I agree, it is a watered down National and Beechers looked much the same as the other fences in terms of the drop and height


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## Alaadin (6 April 2013)

EKW said:



			The fences are a shadow of their former self. There were horses at the back jumping what were basically hurdle height fences once all of the flumf had been brushed off. It didn't take much jumping. 

I kind of feel a bit deflated after this years National. I know I will probably get shot down in flames for this but there was no carnage.
 It just made it another race. As much as I admire the Smiths and love Ryan the horses owner buys horses specifically for the race every year rather than bring one up through the ranks - though it has paid off this time! And I also don't like the guy that looks after the winner but that's personal lol!

Glad they all came home safe.
		
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How can horses dying make a race better? 

Glad they all came home safe but I still hate it. No doubt there were injuries sustained that will cause horses to be PTS when the get home


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## Elf On A Shelf (6 April 2013)

I dont mean horses dying you twonk! By carnage I mean mid air colisions, taxi's being hailed, super glue and welding to saddles being required, no dodgy jumping, nothing special or spectacular really. Thats what makes the National exciting! Not knowning if your chosen combination is still intact and what fantastic shapes they full over every fence.

I remember one year they showed the funniest fall I have ever seen in the National - you will appreciate this as both horse and jockey were fine - Sam Thomas had the jockey cam on, its was a bright sunny day, his horse refused a fence and all you saw from hat cam was his shadow starfishing towards the ground! Hat cam isn't used anymore as it never completed a circuit and the jockeys deemed it cursed and refused to wear it.


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## Elf On A Shelf (6 April 2013)

And as for horses being put down at home - none of them will be! None were injured seriously enough, if at all, to warrent it. They won't get shot because the didn't win, they will either retire, carry on or have a holiday before cracking on with next season. The owners and trainers owe the horses everything for giving them their dream.of a runner in the National - they will be looked after.


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## silu (6 April 2013)

Isn't it odd how there was dozens of posts pre the race and only 6 (1 being mine) since! I'd have thought all those who were so anti The GN of old would be coming on saying how fabulous the race was with hardly any fallers and how despite the spectacle being dramatically reduced, that it was wonderful that the powers that be have given in to pressure and made it not a lot more than a large extreme distance hurdle race. It's almost as tho people are disappointed that there weren't any fatalities, sick or what?


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## lcsd114 (6 April 2013)

Alaadin.  You have absolutely no proof that any of the horses were hurt in any way, so, no doubt, your inflammatory statement is baseless.
  I agree with the others who said the race is just another race with the fences built like that.  I'm a long time GN lover and I think it was missing some excitement today.  I don't want injuries, just for the course to be as challenging as it once was, before the media and the unknowledgable public somewhat neutered the race.


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## Alec Swan (6 April 2013)

Maesfen said:



			I actually thought it was a rubbish race with exactly the same sentiments as EKW and Silu.

It's a shadow of what it was, just seems a simple long distance chase now, nothing special about it at all.
		
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As others,  and I doubt that I'll bother to watch it,  next year.  It's little more than a mediocre marathon,  with as the London Marathon,  commentators struggling to find their lines.  Despite the fact that the presenters did their best to big it up,  they failed.

Alec.


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## ribbons (6 April 2013)

Silu, you make a good point.
Some people I think just love to have a drum to bang. 
My ex moans about everything. Sort out his complaints and he's still not happy. He just enjoys moaning you see.
Most protesters are probably gutted that their drum has been silenced. They just love to object with little experience and lots of self importance.
Well the race is now ruined.
 As others have said, a shadow of what it was, so of little interest to it's supporters, and nothing left for the GN bashers to get in a froth about.
A result indeed. A bloody awful one. A sad day for racing.


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## Elf On A Shelf (6 April 2013)

It's easy to say now but my lad would have won today if his legs had held together last summer. Gray was going to be aimed at this and whilst a decent jumper he wouldn't have come under the 'Good Jumper's category but those fences were very forgiving today. 

I think I'll change my year around to gear up to a different race now - maybe the 2.40pm at Hexham 0-75 Mares Novices Hurdle for Conditional Jockeys.


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## teapot (6 April 2013)

silu said:



			Isn't it odd how there was dozens of posts pre the race and only 6 (1 being mine) since! I'd have thought all those who were so anti The GN of old would be coming on saying how fabulous the race was with hardly any fallers and how despite the spectacle being dramatically reduced, that it was wonderful that the powers that be have given in to pressure and made it not a lot more than a large extreme distance hurdle race. It's almost as tho people are disappointed that there weren't any fatalities, sick or what?
		
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That's exactly what I was thinking. 

I too heard what BG said and thought it was an interesting point. If horses start making silly mistakes and get away with it, it's not going to improve the quality is it? Once word gets round that if you stay at the back, let 30 others take the fence apart and just hop over like a hurdle race, it'll be of detriment to the race IMHO. 

The flat atmsophere said a lot too... 

As for various shapes, any one remember that front page one Sunday of a jockey mid air, stick in hand looking to see if he was going to avoid the ditch on the other side?


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## Honeylight (6 April 2013)

I agree with many posters, the race has been emasculated & is, but a shadow of its former self. The Chair was a great big open ditch once, safe & inviting to jump, now it looked like a hurdle & was as flat as a pancake after only one jump of it.
I expect Animal Aid & Greg what's his name are really sad no horses were killed as they cannot completely get away with the destruction of the race, but they have made it rubbish.
Also Channel 4 only seemed to have 2 cameras; it was like a Pathe Newsreel from the 1930s, long shots, terrible views of the Chair & water jump, hardly any horses before the race & lots of pundits in a silly booth. Very disappointing all round.
Well done to the Smith stable though, I'm a native of Yorkshire, so that was good. Horse looked very light framed....that say's it all.


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## Holly Hocks (6 April 2013)

So it seems like people don't like it when there's carnage and some that prefer the carnage.  Personally I thought today was a wonderful race - in fact when it came to the fifth fence and all were still standing I felt a sense of relief.  The jockeys seemed to give the horses adequate room to see the fences and at least there was a good finish with lots of horses still standing.  Wonderful and long may it continue in the same way as today, and of course congratulations to all those connected to the winning horse.


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## Fintan (6 April 2013)

the thrill in sports.

When I read this, I ask myself a question. Who of these dissapointed GN fans did ever train a horse by themself to the possible max? 

Some of the best riders are always on the rails. 

The challenge will still be to train a horse in such a way that it is able to win the race. We can say tha Iron Man in racing.
And this is the sportive meassure stick, the "olympic thought" and no injured horses.

Will we honor the defiance of dead from some chancers, or the performance of a sportsman?


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## happyhunter123 (6 April 2013)

Honeylight said:



			Also Channel 4 only seemed to have 2 cameras; it was like a Pathe Newsreel from the 1930s, long shots, terrible views of the Chair & water jump, hardly any horses before the race & lots of pundits in a silly booth
		
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Agreed-the camera work was truly horrendous!
But otherwise I enjoyed it. It was nice not to have any fatalities, and by a certain stage of the race, I began to enjoy it properly instead of worrying like normal. I just pray that nothing else is meddled with now. Gavin Grant on twitter has_ now_  moved on to complaining about the number that pulled up (obviously as none died), and is asking for a reduction in numbers!!!  Well, there's no satisfying some people-I expect that Mr Grant wouldn't be happy until racing was finished off altogether 
Hopefully, Channel 4's coverage will be improved next year-I for one hope so because that was the only thing that spoiled this great race for me.


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## MillyMoomie (6 April 2013)

I think some of you are talking a load of twiddle, I was on the course standing right by a nation fence and a big screen, and I can assure you there were hailing cabs, near misses, some bloody good saves, jockeys shouting and jostling, a refusal, unseatings, even horse falls and brilliant atmosphere. The only thing missing was the lack of a green screen being held up and that is bloody marvellous. When l all horses cleared Beachers the first time the crowd cheered madly. First national I've enjoyed for a while. Stop moaning. Sport has to evolve.


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## dressedkez (6 April 2013)

MillyMoomie said:



			I think some of you are talking a load of twiddle, I was on the course standing right by a nation fence and a big screen, and I can assure you there were hailing cabs, near misses, some bloody good saves, jockeys shouting and jostling, a refusal, unseatings, even horse falls and brilliant atmosphere. The only thing missing was the lack of a green screen being held up and that is bloody marvellous. When l all horses cleared Beachers the first time the crowd cheered madly. First national I've enjoyed for a while. Stop moaning. Sport has to evolve.
		
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Milly you are very right - it was not the race of old - but this year it did have to be right, and so it was - or it was in danger of being banned, and then the slippery slope for NH racing thereafter. That a 66-1 horse won it was lovely too - I would have been gutted if it had been won by one of the bigger trainers - it had its fairy tale end.
Agree with all who said that the camera angles were dire - don't agree with the person who said it is now too easy, and that any donkey can win - look at the qualification - all horses have to be highly rated, and the horse that won, had come 2nd in a Scottish GN......40 horses in one race, always going to be exciting - but then 12 horses in the Gold Cup is as gripping. I watched some re-runs of old races on C4 last night - that Red Maurader race has to be a classic.

On another note, what did folk think of the Chase before the GN - won by the Kevin Bishop horse, though Kevin seemed to have little to do with it - and Johnny Faralley getting all the pundits - well he has certainly learnt a thing at two during his time at Pipes.......and then Brian Cooper - has to be champion in say 2015 - 2016 when AP decides to call it a day? 2012/13 has been a stella year for NH racing, one of the most enjoyable seasons for many a year.......


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## WandaMare (6 April 2013)

MillyMoomie said:



			I think some of you are talking a load of twiddle, I was on the course standing right by a nation fence and a big screen, and I can assure you there were hailing cabs, near misses, some bloody good saves, jockeys shouting and jostling, a refusal, unseatings, even horse falls and brilliant atmosphere. The only thing missing was the lack of a green screen being held up and that is bloody marvellous. When l all horses cleared Beachers the first time the crowd cheered madly. First national I've enjoyed for a while. Stop moaning. Sport has to evolve.
		
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Well said ^


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## Elf On A Shelf (6 April 2013)

dressedkez said:



			On another note, what did folk think of the Chase before the GN - won by the Kevin Bishop horse, though Kevin seemed to have little to do with it - and Johnny Faralley getting all the pundits - well he has certainly learnt a thing at two during his time at Pipes.........
		
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Battlegroup is a notoriously difficult ride, we had him as a youngster and he was a right toad. When he left us he went to Pipes and Johnny was about the only person who could get a tune out of him and he did well at Pipes with Johnny so it only seems sensible now that the jockey who got the best out of him moved that the horse moved. Not many owners would do that but they saw the change in the horse that Johnny created - and very much for the good. So yes, Hamster is very, very much Johnny's success and what a cracking job he has done of him!


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## dressedkez (6 April 2013)

EKW said:



			Battlegroup is a notoriously difficult ride, we had him as a youngster and he was a right toad. When he left us he went to Pipes and Johnny was about the only person who could get a tune out of him and he did well at Pipes with Johnny so it only seems sensible now that the jockey who got the best out of him moved that the horse moved. Not many owners would do that but they saw the change in the horse that Johnny created - and very much for the good. So yes, Hamster is very, very much Johnny's success and what a cracking job he has done of him!
		
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Absolutely - it was wonderful (and awesome) to see - and I am so glad that Johnny was wearing a jacket today - I had to tick him off a few years ago when he came to our local Gymkhana (that I was Sec at) and he won every SJ class not wearing a jacket, but some old anorack! Lovely stable name too - Hamster.....why is he called that?


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## Elf On A Shelf (6 April 2013)

Ummm - Sorry if his owners are reading this!!!! When we first got the horse and met his owner, the owner looked a fair bit like a Hamster ... But we never told him this and it was kind of an inside joke in the yard! Well you've got to get your fun somewhere!


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## dressedkez (6 April 2013)

This has made me LOL.....I thought it might be more about nocturnal ramblings, box walking et al - still chortling!


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## dressedkez (6 April 2013)

PS Memo to myself, don't sell a horse to these people - it will certainly be called Mad Woman / Bonkers et al


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## Elf On A Shelf (6 April 2013)

dressedkez said:



			PS Memo to myself, don't sell a horse to these people - it will certainly be called Mad Woman / Bonkers et al
		
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Hehehe! It was me who named him  *scuttles off giggling*


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## Vicstress (7 April 2013)

Chuffed to bits there were no fatalities!  Extremely offended that people feel that those anti national haven't posted because we are disappointed by the lack of carnage....I spent my day away from the pc!! 

So so pleased so watched it with oh just now.....call me fluffy but don't want to watch fatal falls.....whatever our views I think we're all agreed it was a great outcome for all.


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## EAST KENT (7 April 2013)

Alec Swan said:



			As others,  and I doubt that I'll bother to watch it,  next year.  It's little more than a mediocre marathon,  with as the London Marathon,  commentators struggling to find their lines.  Despite the fact that the presenters did their best to big it up,  they failed.

Alec.
		
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All that media build up to what? Another of our traditions gone.


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## Clodagh (7 April 2013)

I enjoyed the other races of the meeting very much but the National - what was the point!? I could probably have jumped round given a half decent jumper, particulary if everyone else had gone first so the jumps were only 2' high.
I can see it had to happen as the RSPCA seem to run Aintree but what a shame.


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## MillyMoomie (7 April 2013)

Another point to make is that as the National is so easy as some are trying to say, how come the favourites didn't win? Another long shot won, this has always been the story of the National, the 100-1 winner etc. look how tea for three tired at the end, Seabass who was third last year didn't even feature. Some of you need to grow up, or perhaps train a Grand National winner if you think it's so easy.


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## Dobiegirl (7 April 2013)

MillyMoomie said:



			Another point to make is that as the National is so easy as some are trying to say, how come the favourites didn't win? Another long shot won, this has always been the story of the National, the 100-1 winner etc. look how tea for three tired at the end, Seabass who was third last year didn't even feature. Some of you need to grow up, or perhaps train a Grand National winner if you think it's so easy.
		
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The winner was carrying 10.3 Imperial Comander 11.10 which says it all really, the tinkering with the fences has changed the GN for ever but if that is what it takes to keep it going then we have to live with it.

I think after yesterday it will attract a different type of horse, hey maybe Big Bucks but would be crucified by the weight.


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## fburton (7 April 2013)

I hadn't intended to watch the Grand National - not because I hate doing so but because I am usually busy doing something else - but yesterday ended up watching at my sister's place. My overriding emotion was relief that there weren't fatalities and that all came back "safe and sound". Sis and family, who had placed bets (something I did only once for fun at Ayr in all the years I was heavily into racing), were pleased at the lack of carnage and it seemed to me their enjoyment was in no way diminished.

For my part, it felt to me like I was watching another race and not the GN. Some of that was likely due to the different coverage, camera style etc., but also the fences simply didn't look the same. It was less obviously gruelling for the horses too, although I am sure they were all ridden to (or near) the limits of their ability. Consequently, it didn't seem as 'exciting'/anxious as I remember from previous years that I watched, 5+ years ago. 

However, if I had to choose between safety and excitement, I would choose safety. It will be interesting to see whether the changes are kept, and whether they continue to result in reduced casualty figures.


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## Honeylight (7 April 2013)

One swallow doesn't make a summer. Think we will have to wait a few more years to see if it has worked.
I thought it lacked any excitement, maybe to do with the change in coverage, the camera work was appalling & I couldn't see what was going on at all. The fences did look tiny, just hurdles covered in clippings from a leylandii.


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## teapot (7 April 2013)

Interesting thoughts from Jenny Pitman: http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/horse-racing/22054314


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## happyhunter123 (7 April 2013)

Clodagh said:



			I can see it had to happen as the RSPCA seem to run Aintree but what a shame.
		
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Sadly, Gavin bloody Grant *still* isn't happy.
'23 "failures to complete" should mean a smaller field next year' he put on Twitter.
He also complained in the Guardian that 'that a number of horses appeared very tired towards the end of the race'.

There's no pleasing some, is there?


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## Elf On A Shelf (7 April 2013)

Just heard that Ryan Mania has been airlifted to hospital after a fall at Hexham just now. 

I sincerely hope the lad is ok!


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## teapot (7 April 2013)

EKW said:



			Just heard that Ryan Mania has been airlifted to hospital after a fall at Hexham just now. 

I sincerely hope the lad is ok!
		
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Me too


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## fburton (7 April 2013)

happyhunter123 said:



			He also complained in the Guardian that 'that a number of horses appeared very tired towards the end of the race'.
		
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Erm, isn't that what's _meant_ to happen??


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## Crazy_cat_lady (7 April 2013)

The fences down the back straight by Valentines etc looked huge but the first few didn't look quite as big but that may have just been the camera angle and probably still something I wouldn't want to have to jump unless riding something like a v good hunter!

Did any one see the horse catchers? To me it looked like they were outside the course where the ambulances etc go so how were they meant to catch horses?! Sorry if I'm being dense!

Main thing is they were all safe.


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## alliersv1 (7 April 2013)

Clodagh said:



			particulary if everyone else had gone first so the jumps were only 2' high.
		
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I am fairly sure that I saw one horse on the second circuit gallop straight through a fence like it was a flattened hurdle. There were a few others that took no jumping at all.
Not necessarily saying it's a good or bad thing, but some of the fences were so lacking in substance that they were literally demolished.


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## MillyMoomie (7 April 2013)

Horse catchers were either side of every fence plus mounted horse catchers which very very well throughout the three days dotted around.
I'm not really sure what everyone is going on about saying the fences look small. Nothing major has happened at all to the fences in regard to the size and outward appearance. It's the inner solid core of SOME not ALL that has changed. This was in addition to other changes such as the start, horse catchers. Numbers of vets were doubled. Plus horse run offs were vastly different.


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## Zero00000 (8 April 2013)

Lots of horses were pulled up towards the end of the race, do you think they have been told new 'rules' and when to pull up?

Im sure having more of those horses (that where pulled up) continued to race then there would have been a lot more 'carnage'

I hate the grand national with a passion, I see it as a death run, and for what? Financial gain!

Horse love to race, if thats all they know, I have an ex racer and know that all too well, but the GN is one race I hate, well after this years, I may actually watch it live next year!

Horses fall, riders fall, it happens in sj/eventing well... anything really, Ive had a fall on my girl on a flat straight we both rolled a number of times, but its not nice to watch that as a public sport!


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## Alec Swan (8 April 2013)

Two further observations about the race,  apart from the fact that it's been rather lessened,  in my view;  

Firstly,  it was good to see exhausted animals pulled up,  when they patently hadn't a chance of a place,  

......and secondly,  more by way of a pondering,  and I may well be wrong now,  but _"generally,  it seems to me"_,  the bulk of the fatalities,  with the bypassed fences occurred when the race was still on its first lap.  Now that may be because the first lap weeded out those which were less than ideal,  or it maybe that horses need to tire a little,  before they settle and concentrate on the job in hand.

Just musings really.  Anyone with experience,  any thoughts?

Alec.


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## Jools2345 (8 April 2013)

Zero00000 said:



			Lots of horses were pulled up towards the end of the race, do you think they have been told new 'rules' and when to pull up?

Im sure having more of those horses (that where pulled up) continued to race then there would have been a lot more 'carnage'

I hate the grand national with a passion, I see it as a death run, and for what? Financial gain!

Horse love to race, if thats all they know, I have an ex racer and know that all too well, but the GN is one race I hate, well after this years, I may actually watch it live next year!

Horses fall, riders fall, it happens in sj/eventing well... anything really, Ive had a fall on my girl on a flat straight we both rolled a number of times, but its not nice to watch that as a public sport!
		
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personally i dont think horses 'love to race', they are a flight animal when a group of them run flat out until pulled up i think it its more out of fear/survival instinct than fun. yes they play about in the field but they rarely run flat out as a group as fast as they can leaping over hurdles/jumps they seem to leap and jump and spin with tails and heads up on alert instead.

so for those of you that dont like the GN but ar ok with other horse racing i am confused and dont understand where you are coming from cos making a flight animal act out its flight instinct is surely cruelty?


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## happyhunter123 (8 April 2013)

Have just watched the GN again on RUK's channel on YouTube, and I know realise why the race felt so _flat_ during this year's coverage. Largely, it's because Channel 4 didn't pick up the sounds of the crowd, and that makes a big difference to the feel and atmosphere of the race. Commentary on there was also far superior, as were the camera shots. It was the sound that made the difference though, the sound of the crowd and the sound of the horses. Watching it on that footage, it felt exciting, whereas on Channel 4 it was just a bit dull. I didn't fell the thrill I've felt in past years

Channel 4-you can do a LOT better


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## MillyMoomie (8 April 2013)

I must have some sort of masochistic nature. I keep reading the comments about the fences , mostly along the lines of the spruce all came off this year so the fence was only tiny, this made it easier etc etc. People you only need watch footage of old Nationals or even the brilliant ' how to win the National' by mark Evans to see this has always been the case. The first horses always bring down the spruce. It's put back on for the 2nd circuit.


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## BigBuck's (8 April 2013)

I'll preface this by saying that I am a bit of a traditionalist, I think that many of the earlier changes may have contributed to the fatalities of the previous couple of years rather than prevented them (i.e lowering fences = increased speed), that I abhor the hypocrisy of people who scream and shout and stamp their feet about the "cruelty" of the Grand National but who don't give the same amount of thought and attention to some 45-rated handicapper who unluckily shatters a leg on the AW at Wolverhampton on a wet Tuesday night in November when the cameras aren't there - or who, more importantly, isn't bothered to get off their ar$e to combat REAL cruelty - AND (deep breath) that one fatality-free year is a bit premature to start rejoicing and assuming all the problems are solved.

Having said all that, I think that we traditionalists need to accept that the Grand National is not a purist's race.  It is the public's race.  It will only continue if it is allowed to do so by the public, who don't understand or care about tradition or the finer points of racing, who accept unthinkingly what they are told by a predominantly biased media.  Governments run scared of public opinion even when it is based on flawed logic (cf foxhunting, the demonisation of benefit claimants etc) and if the tide of public opinion turns unequivocally against the Grand National, it is doomed.

So if the race has had to change and evolve so that it is slightly less of a jumping test, "just another long-distance handicap", the public don't care.  They don't notice that the spruce is knocked off slightly more easily or the horses at the back of the field have to make less of a jumping effort.  They only care that they still have their office sweepstake, their one chance a year to remind themselves who AP McCoy is, their annual bet on a horse named after their uncle - and they care that there are no green screens, no lumps under tarpaulins.

It won't necessarily be the thin end of the wedge and if by sacrificing a little of the 'tradition' of the Grand National we safeguard the rest of racing for future generations, then to my mind that's a sacrifice worth making.  There are thousands of other races for the serious fans to concentrate on.


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## MillyMoomie (8 April 2013)

BigBucks: am I going to have to repeat myself until I  blue in the face. 
Ok here goes; THE GRAND NATIONAL FENCES WERE THE SAME BLOODY HEIGHT AS PREVIOUS YEARS.
As I have said it is ONLY the timber frames that have been replaced with a plastic structure. 
Find someone with a Grand National program to read all about it yourself. Complete with diagram. 
This is annoying me now, I'm sure people just watched the race looking for reasons to criticise. 
I havnt heard anyone say that the changes are a brilliant success because of one year with no fatalities. 
And as for ' the people who stamp their feet at the GN but don't care about the other races' the RSPCA David Muir goes to nearly every single race, gets sent video footage and constantly works with every race course. He is responsible for the type of whip used. The new style water jumps, etc etc. 
some of this thread has convinced me further that people just love an arguement with having any knowledge.


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## BigBuck's (8 April 2013)

MillyMoomie said:



			BigBucks: am I going to have to repeat myself until I  blue in the face. 
Ok here goes; THE GRAND NATIONAL FENCES WERE THE SAME BLOODY HEIGHT AS PREVIOUS YEARS.
As I have said it is ONLY the timber frames that have been replaced with a plastic structure. 
Find someone with a Grand National program to read all about it yourself. Complete with diagram. 
This is annoying me now, I'm sure people just watched the race looking for reasons to criticise. 
I havnt heard anyone say that the changes are a brilliant success because of one year with no fatalities. 
And as for ' the people who stamp their feet at the GN but don't care about the other races' the RSPCA David Muir goes to nearly every single race, gets sent video footage and constantly works with every race course. He is responsible for the type of whip used. The new style water jumps, etc etc. 
some of this thread has convinced me further that people just love an arguement with having any knowledge.
		
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I don't think there's any need to be quite so rude, do you?

If you had read my post properly, you will see that I referred to "earlier" changes re height.  The fourth fence was lowered between the 2011 and 2012 runnings of the race.  Drops have been levelled off at a number of fences, including Becher's Brook, on a gradual basis over previous years - which effectively has the result of reducing the height of the fence from the landing perspective.  Nowhere did I say that I thought the fences had been lowered again before this year's race.

Equally, I'm fairly sure I didn't refer to anyone by name, including David Muir, nor implied in any way that I was referring to the RSPCA.  As it happens, we had an example of the exact mentality to which I WAS referring on the 'Fatality' thread from another HHO member.

If you think I'm a GN critic, read back through some of my previous posts on the subject and you'll see that you are very much mistaken.


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## happyhunter123 (8 April 2013)

MillyMoomie said:



			I havnt heard anyone say that the changes are a brilliant success because of one year with no fatalities.
		
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Ok-here you go then. They were a brilliant success, and I, for one am really pleased. It's a shame the the actual coverage of the race wasn't a little better, IMO it didn't feel like the normal National for that reason. 




			This is annoying me now, I'm sure people just watched the race looking for reasons to criticise
		
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Yes, for example Gavin Grant, who still doesn't seem to be satisfied.




			And as for ' the people who stamp their feet at the GN but don't care about the other races' the RSPCA David Muir goes to nearly every single race, gets sent video footage and constantly works with every race course. He is responsible for the type of whip used. The new style water jumps, etc etc.
		
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I wouldn't class him as 'one of those people' at all, I think BigBucks meant some of the members of the public. Mr Muir seems sensible and rational enough, and probaby knows his stuff, unlike his boss


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## redrumisthebest (20 April 2013)

Alec Swan said:



			The greater the scare-mongering,  the greater the interest in the race.  

The tragedy is that the Jockey Club invited the opinions of those equine authorities,  the rspca,  and acquiesced to the whipped up public demand,  lowered the fences,  made the race faster,  and guess what?  You've got it,  the accident rate rose. 

Such good sense,  don't you think? 

Alec.
		
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I have decided to post a message about the Grand National of 2013.There has been a lot of fors and against through various media outlets about the safety changes made to the Grand National course.The changes that have been inforced in my opinion are due to the general changes in National Hunt courses throughout Great Britain.Horses are not used to jumping the big obstacles that Haydock once had before moderations at the course.All birch fences are assessed for movement when jumped on every course.
More horses are now needed for speed rather then jumping ability and the style of winning high quality Grade One races and top class handicaps have changed dramatically within the last ten years.It is true that stamina over three miles is essential but the smaller horse is now more likely to have as much chance as old style 'bigger horse' over chase courses.
So with all of this,experience is not available for horses to jump bigger fences.
There has been 'tinkering' with the Aintree fences throughout the years,but has it gone too far?
These are the facts:
The fences before and after the second world war were upright with no judgement for the horses to take off,these were considered not suitable at the start of the 1960s so a slope was engulfed in the take-off side of all of the plain fences,including Bechers and Valentines,ditches excluded.The inner core of the fences were wooden logged construction and were not altered.A lot of 'packing' to fences help them from not folding under pressure from the horses jumping the obstacles.Further alterations to the take-off side of the plain fences with the slope being greater a few years ago has now made the fences more likely to collapse when jumped,the spruce is much narrower on the top of the fence and with the culmination of all that has been altered throughout the years it is now more likely that horses will glide through the fences rather then having to jump then totally clean.The inner core of the fences that was altered in the 1990s from a wooden log construction to a parellel solid wooden structure was a factor why horses fell.(The height of these were not uniformed throughout all of the fences),these have now been taken away and replaced with a plastic inner core structure.
The trickery of the landing side of the fences putting Bechers and Valentines aside has been altered also throughout the years also,with the landing side of the tenth fence being levelled in the 1950s and the first and fourth (also lowered to 4'10") being altered last year.Bechers has had changes on a number of occasions throughout the years with the landing side now a few inches lower then the take-off side,the difference between Bechers and Valentines is now very minimal.
In recent years course fence attendants replace spruce to the fences that have been removed from the first circuit.
Fences 1-6,9-13 have available exit points for loose horses to run away from the fences and also allows for fences to be omitted on second circuit (what would happen in the case of similar problems to fence 7 and fence 8 canal turn is unknown)  

Possible Facts:
A lot of talking about the fences in general:i.e. Fences 9-12 always have appeared to be built with less residence from around mid 1980s with the danger of horses being more tired when jumping them on the second circuit.Fence 1 made easier in recent years before levelling of the landing side.
Other changes to fences made on the 'Q.T.'
The claim culture which has engulfed the nations mind set with health and safety issues has had possible implications with the course layout.(there has been great pressure on the authorities from various sectors to try and stay away from life threatening injuries to horse and jockey)
When the Save The Grand National campaign was inserted in one of the Nations major newspapers in the era when the race was vulnerable to extinction,were the contributions from supporters who wanted to keep the race under any circumstances or were the donations with the thought that the race would not be altered in any way or form.
Media attention has for a number of years evaluated the race to the bare bones,has this helped keep the race for the purist?


The likelyhood of the race being run on soft/heavy ground is now less likely with the race being allocated a slot in early April rather then the last week of March,this is due to the meeting in general being now a mini-Cheltenham Festival meeting.

The Grand National will never get to the stage when it will never be run in one form or another,the gross amount of money that is staked and lost (as in this year) is just too great.The bookmakers love this race in general and is a big factor why they exist.The loss of income from the void race in the 1990s was far from good,so they do not care in what form the race is run.They cover themselves as any worthy business would do by pricing up the number of finishes/fallers and the horses odds to the climate the race is set.The public interest has a big say with how much money is laid down on the Grand National,a good proportion of them are only once a year backers and value for money on horses being backed is a big factor.A horse still in with a chance with two fences to go is a lot more encouraging then falling at the first fence.

Final Thought:
With everything considered has this taken away the art of specialist race riding for the Grand National?
Is it now considered that a safe Grand National is more important then a race with drama's?


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## Alec Swan (21 April 2013)

redrumisthebest said:



			.......

Final Thought:
.......

Is it now considered that a safe Grand National is more important then a race with drama's?
		
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An interesting and informative post.  I suspect that your final question,  is missing the point though,  and to ask a question which balances around the trade off between safety and drama,  is mistaken.  

For some,  it isn't quite that simple.  In many elitist sporting events,  there is risk to life and limb,  when the human is travelling at a greater speed than he's designed for,  motor racing being an example.  Do you suppose that the world wide band of F1 fans watch the racing to see drivers die?  Of course you don't,  and the same applies to the National.  Those who are true NH fans watch the race to see the victor overcome the odds,  the obstacles,  his fellow competitors,  and to achieve his Wimbledon!  It isn't about "Drama",  per se,  though with the implied risk,  there must be heart stopping moments.  

The fatalities are always regretted,  and all would wish that they didn't happen.  I'd also point out,  and though I've no idea of the percentage figure to quote,  the fatalities,  as a percentage of the fallers in the National,  must be very small. Most horses are back up on their feet and continue,  or when nearing the end of the race,  and exhausted,  stand to be caught quite easily.  

If it was your point,  then I'd agree with you that in many previous races,  loose horses brought down so many others,  and the introduction of "Drafting" systems have meant that it's rare for horses now to continue to the finish.  How these drafting systems work,  when a fence needs to be bypassed,  because of a fallen horse or rider,  I'm not too sure.

I also agree that the old fashioned NH horse is becoming ever more scarce,  with flat bred horses becoming ever more successful.  Whether this is because of a lesser need for an ability to jump,  and greater emphasis upon a gallop,  again,  I'm none too sure!  Is there a correlation between the lowering of fences and a lesser need for skilled and precise jumping?

Of course there is risk,  but then when the day arrives,  which it will,  when the obstacles over the National course are cavalletties,  there will still be horses which fall.  In my mind,  though I hate the falls,  to reduce the risk is to reduce the race.  

Down many of life's roads,  it's the overcoming of risk which makes the prize so prized. 

A final question for you,  if you will;  is it your opinion that the lowering of fences,  has rendered the National a "Safer" race? 

Alec.


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## redrumisthebest (21 April 2013)

Alec Swan said:



			An interesting and informative post.  I suspect that your final question,  is missing the point though,  and to ask a question which balances around the trade off between safety and drama,  is mistaken.  

For some,  it isn't quite that simple.  In many elitist sporting events,  there is risk to life and limb,  when the human is travelling at a greater speed than he's designed for,  motor racing being an example.  Do you suppose that the world wide band of F1 fans watch the racing to see drivers die?  Of course you don't,  and the same applies to the National.  Those who are true NH fans watch the race to see the victor overcome the odds,  the obstacles,  his fellow competitors,  and to achieve his Wimbledon!  It isn't about "Drama",  per se,  though with the implied risk,  there must be heart stopping moments.  

The fatalities are always regretted,  and all would wish that they didn't happen.  I'd also point out,  and though I've no idea of the percentage figure to quote,  the fatalities,  as a percentage of the fallers in the National,  must be very small. Most horses are back up on their feet and continue,  or when nearing the end of the race,  and exhausted,  stand to be caught quite easily.  

If it was your point,  then I'd agree with you that in many previous races,  loose horses brought down so many others,  and the introduction of "Drafting" systems have meant that it's rare for horses now to continue to the finish.  How these drafting systems work,  when a fence needs to be bypassed,  because of a fallen horse or rider,  I'm not too sure.

I also agree that the old fashioned NH horse is becoming ever more scarce,  with flat bred horses becoming ever more successful.  Whether this is because of a lesser need for an ability to jump,  and greater emphasis upon a gallop,  again,  I'm none too sure!  Is there a correlation between the lowering of fences and a lesser need for skilled and precise jumping?

Of course there is risk,  but then when the day arrives,  which it will,  when the obstacles over the National course are cavalletties,  there will still be horses which fall.  In my mind,  though I hate the falls,  to reduce the risk is to reduce the race.  

Down many of life's roads,  it's the overcoming of risk which makes the prize so prized. 

A final question for you,  if you will;  is it your opinion that the lowering of fences,  has rendered the National a "Safer" race? 

Alec.
		
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Maybe divorcing from the subject in question,I would like to add this.If everyone knew the dangers from the upset as in years gone by,would the owners and trainers enter possible unsuitable horses in the race.Another way to look at it is as follows,if you treated your child along the same route and you knew the dangers of sending him/her on a pertential dangerous holiday would the parents allow them to go?

So why is the blame aimed as much at the authorities and not aimed at the owners and trainers?

(1) The Grand National has always been a challenge of horse jumping/stamina,race riding ability and in some ways luck also.These abilities to win the race are being subdued to create a more controlled race,a similar path to how life is in general.

(2) The ratio of horse fatalities in the race has increased since 1990,this appears since alterations were made to the course from that period.

(3) So on basis (2) the answer to your question is that since 1990 the race is not 'safer'.

However the 'powers that be' will judge it from this year and will not take into consideration the facts from (2) so (1) is the way that the race is now heading.


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