# Stubborn pony napping badly for my daughter



## book_lover (21 March 2015)

Helllp! You guys have helped me before, and I put a lot of the advice into practice and we really made leaps and bounds. My daughter (10 next month) has a Welshie who can be very stubborn and difficult. We'll have had her for about 9 months. When she first arrived she was great, no issues, but then the bucking started - we got through that (my daughter now has a great seat!). Things were great for a bit, then we had a lot of snow up here over the winter which stopped us from working as we don't have an indoor school.... Since getting back into work since February, she's never really been going properly - not bucking (well hardly at all) - but the new trick is stopping, walking backwards, and turning around when L lifts her hand to smack her on the bum.... it really seems to be working in the pony's favour - which is strange because my daughter had got a lot stronger and assertive with her. She'll go forward for a bit but slow down  at the ends of the school then stop - or near the gate. She's worse if there are people in the school (naps to them) or another pony stood doing nothing. Even though L was winning about 2 weeks ago - it seems to have escalated and now the pony is winning. I guess she knows that L is a child... it really interferes with her progress. We've joined L up to the PC as we thought it would help, but they didn't get on well at her first rally (same problem). She is off for XC training tomorrow and I have no idea how it will go! Today we eventually won by lungeing the pony with L on her, then letting them go but me occasionally cracking the lunge whip nearby. But really - this isn't going to cause behavioural change I doubt? Plus when my own horse is shod next week I'll be back in the saddle and not on the ground.... today I even had a little meltdown about and felt so sorry for my daughter who is a good strong rider and should really be out competing by now. I don't know at what stage you give in - but I certainly want to try one last push as this pony is amazing when she is going and has huge potential, plus they are bonded (at least on the ground) and L loves her. Even I do!! Worth mentioning that she only ever had adult or teen rider before. What kind of support can we seek? People keep saying I should get on her, or another adult - but we feel she'll just revert to her old behaviour once she has a child on her again... any advice on exercises or tactics or anything - much appreciated.
Editing to add teeth done recently and back checked - saddle fitted a few months ago but seems fine to me? She's 8 y old and a welsh D, sound and good healthy strides - fit but hairy and we missed our chance to clip (although the napping starts early in the schooling).


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## 3Beasties (21 March 2015)

Have you tried long-reining her?

It might be worth you getting on her occasionally; it is more likely to help than do harm! 

I know a 14.2hh that used to be very strong/take off in open spaces with a 12 year old on him. For ages the owner didn't want anyone else to ride him as he thought that pony would then take the p!ss more with the child but I eventually got on him. Put him in the same situation that he would be in with a child, he went to take off with me and he was told in no uncertain terms that it was not acceptable. Pony was much better for the child afterwards and if he started reverting I would get back on ad remind him of his manners!! It also allowed me to get a feeling for the pony and I was able to offer tips/advice when the child was riding.


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## book_lover (21 March 2015)

Thanks 3Beasties... I am willing to do that - just hope she doesn't start the bucking trick with me as my most recent experience of that goes back to my first horse over 20 years ago - eek! In fact I have only recently started riding properly again with my own horse, who is a gentleman (although a wuss and can spook) so I'm not used to bad manners - let's hope my riding is good enough for her. I may actually not be a better rider than my daughter now - although I will most likely be a stronger one! Long reining, no only lunging, could be an idea?!


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## ladyt25 (21 March 2015)

From what I understand napping can be down to various reasons,  two of these being lack of confidence (horse I mean)  and/or discomfort (ie saddle not fitting correctly). 
So, I would suggest first getting the saddle checked and back checked and, if all deemed ok work on building up the pony's confidence. Maybe some private tuition to see if a fresh pair of eyes on the issues and they may have some specific advice.


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## 3Beasties (21 March 2015)

If you don't feel confident enough to get her it may be worth getting a teenager on her or another adult. 

Ponies always seem to go through some 'testing' stages with new riders so try not to be too disheartened! She sounds like she will be fab once over this little blip!


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## book_lover (21 March 2015)

lady25, as the problem is new, I think you could be right. I have a super lady I can call up for saddle fitting, and a highly recommended back checker! 3Beasties I am confident enough to give it a go at least - we have a very soft school  Yeah she really will be fab, but I don't want my daughter to have to wait for 2 years before she can progress on her so really want to get this fixed if at all possible. Ponies - who'd have 'em!


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## book_lover (21 March 2015)

also lady25 the confidence thing - she is quite a confident pony as far as I can work out, and she's familiar with the school, the work etc. It perhaps might explain her behaviour away from home, or maybe she needs more gentle treatment - although most people are certain she's just taking the mick out of her small rider. Wishing I'd spent three times as much on a "perfect" pony now although knowing our luck, such a pony might develop issues anyway!


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## 3Beasties (21 March 2015)

Another tip which I use with my nappy horse (not a confidence issue!) is if she won't go forward when I ask I turn her tightly in a circle repeatedly until she will go forward (usually only have to turn her a couple of times!). If you are sure there are no physical problems this might be worth trying (although it may not be a suitable exercise for your daughter!).


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## Equi (21 March 2015)

Pressure and release might work. Do this on the ground and work with her like that. Then try the same voice ques in the saddle. 

Just to add is there a chance she's just overhorsed? She can be confident as you like but if she hasn't got the strength and assertiveness the horse is used to it won't matter how confident she is.


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## book_lover (21 March 2015)

thanks 3Beasties, we can try that with her. Equi I am indeed starting to wonder this. We did take advice on this when purchasing (because we'd already struggled with one smaller loan pony who had to go home eventually as he was just a bucking bronco then started to rear - after several checks we suspect some underlying stiffness is to blame, but his owner didn't listen and put him out to another child as far as I know!). So she didn't seem over horsed at first or even during the 1 month trial as the pony was so very sensitive to commands and forward going (her owner had trained her to voice commands but my daughter found this hard to maintain and reverted to mostly body commands). I really do suspect that it's a case that the pony is trying stuff on more with her as she knows she's smaller. But I want to do one really good push at cracking this before we change the pony AGAIN (starting to feel like a real failure tbh I don't know if I could face going through it again!) so any tips on how to do this big push to crack it welcome. Bearing in mind they've been great together before. The very thought of going through it all again, plus - how do you even sell a nappy pony? How do I raise the £4k I'd probably need to pay the premium for a well behaved pony? Argh. Will try the pressure and release, thank you.


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## YorksG (21 March 2015)

What is the pony like out hacking? It sounds as if she is fed up of the school, plus if it is "soft" it may be very hard work for her.


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## book_lover (21 March 2015)

Hi YorksG - she's great hacking in company - although she can put in an excited buck in the canter (but only when she's coming back into work and first cantering). She'll go anywhere and do anything if she's with another horse. We took her out today on her own for the first time ever - she was great mostly but DID try to turn around a few times, none the less my daughter got her to trot and canter (she was "racing" my little boy on his bike!). Only a few strides of canter then she was trying to turn around! And she refused point blank to canter in the wee field that we have a canter in on the way home - clearly she'll follow her friends anywhere but it's a different story if it's just her! Bearing in mind though that's the first time we've had her out on her own. We then tried to take her into the school for 10 minutes and a couple of jumps, and she was REALLY bad - but perhaps this is partly because she never normally does that after a hack (but we only did a short hack today). However, the others at the yard say this is me making excuses for her again.... the school is soft, it's the ripped up rubber school.... I would like to do more hacking with her (and we usually do) but my horse has been "footy" so I've been giving him a break hence no hacking. Actually thinking about it perhaps this problem has been worse since then? Anything in the school can make her decide to be nappy - seeing a friend being put back in the field; other horses stopping in the middle of the school; other horses arriving home in their boxes. You name it!


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## Tess Love (21 March 2015)

My Welsh D used to be very nappy when I first got her and definitely think she was testing me out! What I found through trial and error was voice commands put me back in complete control, strong, very athortative voice commands. If she napped a no nonsense 'walk on' worked better than anything else. I haven't looked back  and can go anywhere now. It also doesn't reply on strength just voice tone.  Ive know a few Welshies who work better with voice commands. It might be worth a go?


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## honetpot (21 March 2015)

Its very hard with young children, the pony knows more about being ridden, and learns a new trick with every rider whilst the child is trying to catch up. 
  I have a very clever welsh A, who is almost perfect in every way apart from the fact he's smarter than most children he would be bought for. I have tried selling him on a couple of occasions, he did PC, hunted, broken to drive WHP, good in traffic, snaffle mouth, not sharp, so he should be perfect as FR but no he is far too clever for a small child, a child 10+ and they have an amazing time. Think ATV with legs. 
  I would not put an adult on him, tried that and the pony will be clever enough to know the difference and the leg aids are in totally the wrong place. To be honest I would avoid the issue as much as possible. He hates schooling and napes, what small pony likes schooling. Find out what he will cooperate with the least amount of hassle and do that. Do a different thing every day, if its only a walk to the shops, you will do a lot of walking and running. Get him and your daughter thinking forward. Get her to use her voice as an aid, it will let her breathe, get her to sing, get the tension out. Do not get him fit, if you give him three or four days on don't worry about days off as long as its consistent and the work varied. Find a field out on hack, and do an oval in trot, work on small steps of success.
  Most teachers ( most of forgotten want its like to be small)will try and make the pony or the child do it, which ends up most of the time the pony winning, you have to stack the odds in your childs favour and be smarter than the pony. The more saying yes becomes ingrained your daughter will relax and get the measure of him. I wish you well, I have been though this at least twice and have seen enough naughty ponies at PC, but even the best pony will start to say no if its bored or can see the easy way out, that just the way they are.


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## Tobiano (21 March 2015)

oh gosh, sorry OP, its horrible when this happens!

My daughter had some struggles with her horse (I bought one that was too big and strong for her then couldn't sell him as he developed arthritis) and the one thing that worked was to send them both to our wonderful RS for a week where Polly had lessons with him a couple of times a day and really got her confidence up and gave her the tools to deal with his behaviour.  The key is to act BEFORE the evasion really takes hold.   

From being frightened to ride, my daughter, all 8 stone of her, was riding her 16.1hh Welsh x TB bareback in canter.  If you have the option to do this then it may help with a solution.  Good luck in any case


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## book_lover (21 March 2015)

Tess great idea and interesting you should suggest this - when she came to us her owner had trained her with mostly voice - although Laura found it hard to work that way so reverted to body commands. I will get her to try this. Honetpot thank you - I am ingraining this sentence in my brain: "The more saying yes becomes ingrained your daughter will relax and get the measure of him." Tobiano that would work I am sure, but not sure when/how we would be able to do that. I am going to emplore her instructor to come more often, or if not I need to find someone who can.... I am now wondering if she's in season. She can be hard work but this is one of her "phases" and I think the last ones may have coincided with that, too! Bloomin' heck is it not bad enough having to deal with my own PMT??? But then - it may not be that at all.


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## jakkibag (21 March 2015)

Does the whip work, will the pony go forward when tapped! I had a particularly naughty native who knew all the tricks in the book, to get out of everything, what I found to help was to carry two schooling whips, I know your daughter will have small hands but you can get them with very thin handles, and thin reins, when pony was grinding to a halt or trying to turn/nap to gate,I was able to tickle behind the leg without taking hands off the reins, trying to turn away from the tickle resulted in the other side, pony soon got bored and realised he wasn't getting away with it, keep schooling short, sweet and fun, games, handy pony type things.


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## baymareb (22 March 2015)

Another trick when they begin to back up is for the rider to immediately ASK them to back, and then keep them backing. It puts the rider back in control of what the horse is doing and the horse finds itself working when it was trying to get out of work. Then rider asks horse to move on and 9 times out of 10, the horse does.

It does require confidence and timing but can be effective.


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## Exploding Chestnuts (22 March 2015)

If you ring round you can find a small instructor, or send him away for a week or more, the longer it goes on, the more ingrained.
 If she leans back, it will be uncomfortable and he may move forward.


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## WelshD (22 March 2015)

You may not have the money for a ready made pony but is there some money you can throw at this one? I'd be inclined to invest in some private lessons with a really good instructor.

Does the pony have a good level of schooling already? She may ne eight but could still be green and unsure of what she is being asked

If she isn't green I would crack on and school her yourself for a while  

If she is green then sending her away for schooling may be a good idea, if you go on to sell her you may not get the cost of this back but it will make the pony far more sellable

I would very tentatively add that if the last pony was difficult and this one is too is there a chance you are overestimating your childs ability? It could be that a loaned more experienced more forgiving pony could be the way to go


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## Flicker (22 March 2015)

My only experience of a nappy horse was a little mare I had who used to nap in the yard when I tried to ride her up to the school.  YO stood behind her with a carriage whip (lunge whip is fine too, anything long enough to put a safe distance between human and hooves).  I put my leg on, mare stepped back and got a sharp tap with the whip. She jumped forward and got a pat and asked to move on.  We repeated this a few times and she got the picture quite quickly that it was easier to just move forward.
However, she was a lazy little ID cross who was just after an easy life.  Clever ponies can be trickier!


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## Spotsrock (22 March 2015)

It is quite sensitive to suggest but you've now had 2 ponies who were perfect on arrival that have now manifested poor behaviour. I think some lessons with a really good instructor may be the solution as these behaviours appear to be being learnt by the ponies once they are with you.


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## book_lover (17 April 2015)

jakkibag said:



			Does the whip work, will the pony go forward when tapped! I had a particularly naughty native who knew all the tricks in the book, to get out of everything, what I found to help was to carry two schooling whips, I know your daughter will have small hands but you can get them with very thin handles, and thin reins, when pony was grinding to a halt or trying to turn/nap to gate,I was able to tickle behind the leg without taking hands off the reins, trying to turn away from the tickle resulted in the other side, pony soon got bored and realised he wasn't getting away with it, keep schooling short, sweet and fun, games, handy pony type things.
		
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Jakkibag thanks (sorry for late reply I hand't realised there were more replies here).  this idea has a lot of potential - sounds very similar to her behaviour too. Will try that.


thanks


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## book_lover (17 April 2015)

baymareb said:



			Another trick when they begin to back up is for the rider to immediately ASK them to back, and then keep them backing. It puts the rider back in control of what the horse is doing and the horse finds itself working when it was trying to get out of work. Then rider asks horse to move on and 9 times out of 10, the horse does.

It does require confidence and timing but can be effective.
		
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this is a fantastic idea. It's similar to tricks I had to use on my own horse when I was 15 - she came with all sorts of problems but we eventually worked through them. thanks


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## book_lover (17 April 2015)

Bonkers2 said:



			If you ring round you can find a small instructor, or send him away for a week or more, the longer it goes on, the more ingrained.
 If she leans back, it will be uncomfortable and he may move forward.
		
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will ask her instructor to be ready to get on if needed next time - thanks Bonkers. But I suspect that if she goes away, she will come back and just realise she has a smaller rider again and pull out the tricks once more. I do think it would be better to fix with her main rider.


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## book_lover (17 April 2015)

WelshD said:



			You may not have the money for a ready made pony but is there some money you can throw at this one? I'd be inclined to invest in some private lessons with a really good instructor.

Does the pony have a good level of schooling already? She may ne eight but could still be green and unsure of what she is being asked

If she isn't green I would crack on and school her yourself for a while  

If she is green then sending her away for schooling may be a good idea, if you go on to sell her you may not get the cost of this back but it will make the pony far more sellable

I would very tentatively add that if the last pony was difficult and this one is too is there a chance you are overestimating your childs ability? It could be that a loaned more experienced more forgiving pony could be the way to go
		
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Laura has been told by many people (pro and otherwise) that she is a cracking rider. Really good for her years in the saddle (now 4 years). In hindsight a schoolmaster would have been better, yes. BUT I think with additional lessons (they are not regular enough, I agree - the instructor tends to come only when she can pull together a group, but I have asked her to come more frequently). This is the pony we have though, she doesn't do anything to endanger her rider and is a sweet pony, so I think we can work with her.


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## book_lover (17 April 2015)

Flicker said:



			My only experience of a nappy horse was a little mare I had who used to nap in the yard when I tried to ride her up to the school.  YO stood behind her with a carriage whip (lunge whip is fine too, anything long enough to put a safe distance between human and hooves).  I put my leg on, mare stepped back and got a sharp tap with the whip. She jumped forward and got a pat and asked to move on.  We repeated this a few times and she got the picture quite quickly that it was easier to just move forward.
However, she was a lazy little ID cross who was just after an easy life.  Clever ponies can be trickier!
		
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This sounds promising. I know she will go forward if she sees a lunge whip out the corner of her eye. Ultimately we want a better result though as in Laura being totally independent. will use this idea though if we have another bad day - thank you


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## book_lover (17 April 2015)

Spotsrock said:



			It is quite sensitive to suggest but you've now had 2 ponies who were perfect on arrival that have now manifested poor behaviour. I think some lessons with a really good instructor may be the solution as these behaviours appear to be being learnt by the ponies once they are with you.
		
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Spotsrock you are entitled to your opinion, although I don't recall ever saying the ponies were perfect. The first one especially it turns out had a history of bucking (it was played down when we went to view him). Actually I believe he should be given early retirement as he is not safe for children (according to many of the professionals around us), but the loaner may have had other ideas. Becky was perfect when we viewed her - but that doesn't mean she was perfect. She was green if I remember correctly but responding very well to her adult rider's aids. 

I would have to agree that the behaviours are learned. But with respect - not through any fault of my daughter's. She is a great little rider (I have that on authority from multiple instructors and experienced peers at the livery) but yes - the pony is clever, and the pony learns! She learns she has a smaller rider who she can take advantage of. This is classic for Welsh Ds. 

You know when you wish you hadn't come back to see if there were more replies?? Jeez. If you knew us, and knew my daughter's riding, you would know that we are spending a lot of time with the pony, investing a lot of work into her - we are doing the best we can with guidance from professionals (and I thought it would be a good thing to come here and ask for more ideas - thanks to all who offered constructive advice). To have it suggested that we are ruining ponies is neither constructive nor particularly kind.


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## book_lover (17 April 2015)

Also to give a little example of her the other day - she was behaving beautifully for my daughter - just me riding my horse, and her with her pony in the school. Warming up, trotting and some canter work, all fine. Then my husband arrived with the inlaws to meet their granddaughter's new pony - though they stood up on the bank quite far outside of the school. As soon as the audience showed up her behaviour changed. L got her going forward again in the end.


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## debserofe (17 April 2015)

Sounds like you have a smart little pony who has got a little arena sour and knows how to get a rest - you could try letting the pony go to the gate, side, pony, person, etc., and then when it gets there start moving its feet in circles, working on transitions, leg yield, back up, etc., just keep its feet moving - when the pony moves away, take the pressure off and let the pony rest when it offers to move away (initially it might happen by mistake).  The distance should increase to the point where you should find the pony moves away on request, without protest or having to resort to hitting with a stick - on said note, I would take away the stick and get your instructor to help you with getting the pony off the leg, a stick should be used as a schooling aid not as a punishment - every time your daughter turns her hand to use the stick, it upsets her balance, the pony's balance and the bond!  Good luck and hope your lovely pony will soon return so that your daughter is soon enjoying the ridden work again.


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## Gloi (17 April 2015)

I would be concentrating on building up your daughters confidence again by hacking her out with another horse on a regular basis rather than doing school work for a while. If your horse cannot hack at the moment maybe you can borrow one to accompany her. Ponies often get quickly sickened of school work and if she is taking advantage of your daughter in the school I would take the pressure of your daughter for a while and just let her hack out and maybe get her instructor or similar person to do some school work with the pony instead. She could then have lessons with the person so they can work on the problems together. I do agree with other people though who have said that the pony may just be too big and strong for your daughter; a Welsh Cob is a considerable amount of horse for a small person.


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## muckypony (17 April 2015)

How big is the pony? For a 10 year old, when you said a Welshie, I though you meant an A or B, maybe a C. But if it is a Welsh D, the chances are that this is far too much for your daughter. They are renowned for being quirky and having a quirky one myself, there's no way a 10 year old would be able to ride him no matter how good a rider they are.


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## book_lover (18 April 2015)

debserofe said:



			Sounds like you have a smart little pony who has got a little arena sour and knows how to get a rest - you could try letting the pony go to the gate, side, pony, person, etc., and then when it gets there start moving its feet in circles, working on transitions, leg yield, back up, etc., just keep its feet moving - when the pony moves away, take the pressure off and let the pony rest when it offers to move away (initially it might happen by mistake).  The distance should increase to the point where you should find the pony moves away on request, without protest or having to resort to hitting with a stick - on said note, I would take away the stick and get your instructor to help you with getting the pony off the leg, a stick should be used as a schooling aid not as a punishment - every time your daughter turns her hand to use the stick, it upsets her balance, the pony's balance and the bond!  Good luck and hope your lovely pony will soon return so that your daughter is soon enjoying the ridden work again.
		
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great ideas, thanks debserofe.


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## book_lover (18 April 2015)

Hi Gloi, good idea thanks. Gloi and Muckypony - in hindsight yes a Welsh D is a lot for her to take on, but whilst they are still having some successes we will persevere. We went XC training the other day - although the instructor had pony following me on my horse a lot of the time, she also had her do a couple of things herself which went ok. Pony Club ladies think the pony is cracking and at least looks after her rider and has a good bond with her on the ground. I do think we have something to work with here. Also of course my daughter is bonded with the pony now (despite her naughtiness I do believe the pony is fond of my daughter). With the first pony we had on loan - they were well matched for size but he had underlying problems that caused him to be unsuitable. With this one - we took (perhaps misguided) advice that the pony would be suitable despite her larger size. Changing ponies again would be a huge wrench, and given her stubborn nature I doubt would be easy to sell (at least to a decent home). Bearing in mind my daughter is a chunkier 10 year old, but even so I do realise the pony is a bit large for her. Yet it's more about the nature than the size in my opinion - my 15.2hh horse is an absolute gent for my daughter (he is 17 though) and she can canter him round the school and jump him no problem... Obviously it's a massive disappointment that L's progress is being blocked by the pony. As I said I am wondering if we need to try a different pony but my daughter is determined to make it work with this pony (who can be absolutely cracking some of the time for her, even now). 

I had a lady on FB offer her services for behavioural work (she messaged me based on something I said in passing on a horse group). It turned out she was quite far and I knew nothing about her credentials. So I said no. Also can be problematic with the different approaches confusing my daughter and the pony (instructor feels the pony needs a firm assertive hand, natural horsemanship people will often feel the reverse??). So I am keen to seek help and support (before moving on to a new pony) - but how should I do that? More intensive lessons with existing instructor? Or find someone very different in their approach? We are very keen to put the effort in here.


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## book_lover (18 April 2015)

I wonder if it's worth mentioning too - some of the things she used to be naughty at she is now very good. Like standing still for my daughter to mount. Used to take several attempts - now she just does it. She is also very fond of praise and attention.


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## Luci07 (18 April 2015)

It really won't hurt your pony if you get on board and school her/give her a reminder. My trainer rides my horse for me quite regularly and it really helps. He isn't the most confident but doing it this way saw his education come on leaps and bounds. It also has really helped how I ride him. As others said, get your basic checks out of the way. Make a note of how your pony behaved after having time off for next year. Up the work (lunging, long reining) and yes, do ride the pony as well. Once pain has been ruled out, the best behaviour improvement I have ever seen is a proper work regime. Really sounds a lot like time off, bored pony, possibly didn't fit her tack so tried her luck. My boy will change shape quickly and when he went from proper work to 2 weeks walking in hand due to a knock...I had to pad out his saddle when I rode again. That is how quickly he had lost sufficient top line and specifically muscle around his wither.


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## Smurf's Gran (18 April 2015)

3Beasties said:



			Another tip which I use with my nappy horse (not a confidence issue!) is if she won't go forward when I ask I turn her tightly in a circle repeatedly until she will go forward (usually only have to turn her a couple of times!). If you are sure there are no physical problems this might be worth trying (although it may not be a suitable exercise for your daughter!).
		
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3B  we did this with our pony when he started testing my daughter ( she was only 12 at the time with a sharp NF)  he was not very confident, but he had also started to do half rears as well, and she was losing her confidence quickly - this method was very very effective.  He had stopped napping within a week , and later if he considered not going forward she would only need to turn him once and he would go forwards again - very good strategy to know about.  (works for rearing too)

Also what about pony club.  Is she's not a member she could join and they would help her (and you)


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## book_lover (18 April 2015)

Luci07 - good reminder - I'll actually give our excellent saddle fitter a call and get this ruled out. She has lost weight over the winter (but nowhere near underweight as she lives on fresh air!). Good point about work regime too - we need to get up there more often. Now we have lighter evenings this is getting easier.

Smurf's Gran - great! Glad it worked for you. With the first pony we had, once he started rearing we decided to give up - was too afraid of him toppling backwards and squashing Laura. But that was the last in a long line of problems and I truly believe that despite all his checks saying he was good to ride, he had some underlying stiffness issues (never tracked up properly). He came wearing this awful plastic saddle that was way too narrow on his spine so this probably caused the damage. Doubt that little pony would ever want to work again  I really hope he has been given an early retirement but his owner seemed to take the huff with us (whenever we messaged her to ask her how he is, it was one word replies). I am pretty sure she was planning to put him out to another child (but is from a different part of Scotland so will never really know). Shame as we were fond of him and would have liked to hear how he was.


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## book_lover (18 April 2015)

So today - once my little boy is dressed - we're off to the ponies. I'm going to not ride today, but instead be on the ground observing Laura. When these issues hit before, Laura did a lot of ground work. Seemed to work in earning pony's respect. So we'll do that again. Planning to do the friendly game from Parelli this morning. Maybe some of the Porcupine game too. Then Laura will ride her. Shall I be ready to ride her too? I am worried that Laura might actually be a better rider than me (but obviously my aids will be stronger). If she bucks I may come off  Laura has way the better seat for that! But she hasn't been bucking for a long time. 

In the school we'll do some flatwork and poles, maybe a couple of jumps (the pony strangely prefers jumping to flatwork). 

Will take some pictures, although am sure some people will say the pony is too big - but we've established that she's on the big side  Maybe a video and you can see how they are doing.

thanks to everyone and sorry if I have come across as defensive, I've used forums before and I know some people can be more frank than others, doesn't stop me being a softie


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## Exploding Chestnuts (18 April 2015)

book_lover said:



			So today - once my little boy is dressed - we're off to the ponies. I'm going to not ride today, but instead be on the ground observing Laura. When these issues hit before, Laura did a lot of ground work. Seemed to work in earning pony's respect. So we'll do that again. Planning to do the friendly game from Parelli this morning. Maybe some of the Porcupine game too. Then Laura will ride her. Shall I be ready to ride her too? I am worried that Laura might actually be a better rider than me (but obviously my aids will be stronger). If she bucks I may come off  Laura has way the better seat for that! But she hasn't been bucking for a long time. 

In the school we'll do some flatwork and poles, maybe a couple of jumps (the pony strangely prefers jumping to flatwork). 

Will take some pictures, although am sure some people will say the pony is too big - but we've established that she's on the big side  Maybe a video and you can see how they are doing.

thanks to everyone and sorry if I have come across as defensive, I've used forums before and I know some people can be more frank than others, doesn't stop me being a softie 

Click to expand...

I have not read all the advice, but ponies are like children, they need to know the boundaries, they will not be bribed however, and will not understand reasoned argument or "threats", get on and go is what they need to understand, a good rider will make a good horse and vice versa.
Don't let a pony get fat, they can get laminitis, which is a painful disease and can recur.


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## book_lover (18 April 2015)

thanks Bonkers2, yes and let's bear in mind she is 8, and comes across as a young 8 - so she is essentially a child (or worse, a teenager!). Thanks, we're going to be super strict with her this year and the grass, as we've seen how easily she blows up.


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## el_Snowflakes (18 April 2015)

Could it be that she is coming into season & more interested in the other horses than her riders aids?


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## book_lover (18 April 2015)

el_Snowflakes said:



			Could it be that she is coming into season & more interested in the other horses than her riders aids?
		
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very good point el_Snowflakes, when she is coming into season she is much worse. It's just so very regular though isn't it??


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## book_lover (18 April 2015)

And certainly yes she is bonded with certain of the other horses, if she sees them she becomes distracted and may go from behaving very nicely to playing up.


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## LinzyD (18 April 2015)

Gosh, a Welsh D is a lot of pony for a child.  I started reading because I've recently experienced similar issues with a pony stopping at me/the gate/the cat while in the school, but this was a Welsh A with a tall 8 year-old child.  I resolved the problem with a combination of some of the things suggested in this thread: lots of hacking out to build confidence, long-reining without a rider so that the pony got used to going forward in the school and being obedient and not stopping unless asked, lunging and free schooling the pony with lots of transitions using voice commands so that he got used to focusing on instructions and going away from me rather than being near me and stopping.  Then I put the rider back on and helped from the ground with my voice commands while she used her aids.  My voice backed up her aids (child cannot replicate my voice commands effectively), and now the pony listens to the aids and is going sweetly.  

Welshies are always strong-willed and wily and get bored easily.  We find it much easier to keep the pony focused and forward with lots of transitions and pole work so that he is too busy to think about ambling over to the gate or stopping at me.


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## book_lover (18 April 2015)

thanks Linzy, some good ideas here. Do you think it a good (or bad) idea to lunge first in the school before L rides?


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## ester (18 April 2015)

As the owner of a small D who is pretty saintly he'd start to push boundaries on a youngster and a lot of pony for an 8yo. His previous owner got him at 12 and looked diddy. I know they are clever but I do think someone else rideing or long reining would help. ATM he's worked out he can do it every time if he could at least only do it half the time it would help! Better schooling/exercise being put on is never a bad idea. Does he set his neck when napping?


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## LinzyD (18 April 2015)

book_lover said:



			thanks Linzy, some good ideas here. Do you think it a good (or bad) idea to lunge first in the school before L rides?
		
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I would probably not ride in the school for now.  Just stop doing the thing where she has an opportunity to nap.  Just lunge/long-rein/free school, so that the school is a place where she HAS to go forwards, and do lots of hacking out.  I did a couple of weeks of working the pony every day for just 15 minutes either lunge/long-rein/free school, and never putting the rider on at all.  Keep it short and frequent and fun.  The next time I put the rider on, the pony went round like clockwork and had forgotten all about napping or stopping.  Within a couple of sessions with the rider, he tried it on again, I stepped forwards and used my voice and he went forwards.  I think, in my experience, just doing the lunge before you ride thing, won't be an instant fix and may even reinforce the boredom, it's more a case of using lunging instead of riding in the school in order to break the cycle and get the pony thinking forwards and not napping.  One thing that might help if you can get the pony out of the napping on the lunge, is then for the rider to be on the pony on the lunge, as an interim step.  This doesn't mean that Laura is in any way not capable, it is a training method for the pony.


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## LinzyD (18 April 2015)

Ooh, just thought of another thing that helped with a very idle Section C and my other niece.  The pony used to take her to the gate all the time, so I put a diamond of poles on the floor in the centre of the arena and called it 'the magic box'.  She had to mount inside the box, do transitions through the box, so doing lots of figures of 8 with trot-walk-trot through the magic box, walk-halt-walk, etc, and if the pony tried ambling off with her we'd do small turns in and out of the box (a bit like the circling thing mentioned above), and at the end of the session - and this was key - she would dismount inside the box and give the pony lots of praise and a treat.  It didn't take him long to learn that the gate was not the way to the end of the session, but the magic box might yield a treat or signal the end.  These Welshies - it's a constant game of wits!!!


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## book_lover (18 April 2015)

ester said:



			As the owner of a small D who is pretty saintly he'd start to push boundaries on a youngster and a lot of pony for an 8yo. His previous owner got him at 12 and looked diddy. I know they are clever but I do think someone else rideing or long reining would help. ATM he's worked out he can do it every time if he could at least only do it half the time it would help! Better schooling/exercise being put on is never a bad idea. Does he set his neck when napping?
		
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Hi Ester, yes a bit with the neck, shoulder shuffles and whips tail. When more naughty it is bucking. Actually today went really well until we started canter work - although from the start she was highly strung and forward. So actually we had no issues with going forward until when they were doing canter over poles, then Becky started to doing rocking horse bucks once over poles and at end of school. We tried the tight circles as rec'd by a few people here. Works quite well in getting her moving forward again actually. But each time she cantered she did rocking horse bucks. Laura has such an amazing seat and was just pushing her through it. But I did wonder why - so I have messaged the saddle fitter to ask when she can come to check the fit. She's in Thailand on a long holiday at the mo though...

I have noticed Becky being more wired/forward and more spooky and silly when in the school on her own. Separation from the herd? Better behaved when there's other ponies but then can nap to them...


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## book_lover (18 April 2015)

ester said:



			As the owner of a small D who is pretty saintly he'd start to push boundaries on a youngster and a lot of pony for an 8yo. His previous owner got him at 12 and looked diddy. I know they are clever but I do think someone else rideing or long reining would help. ATM he's worked out he can do it every time if he could at least only do it half the time it would help! Better schooling/exercise being put on is never a bad idea. Does he set his neck when napping?
		
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I do wonder whether my schooling would be "better" though.... certainly wouldn't have the seat that Laura has!


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## book_lover (18 April 2015)

LinzyD said:



			I would probably not ride in the school for now.  Just stop doing the thing where she has an opportunity to nap.  Just lunge/long-rein/free school, so that the school is a place where she HAS to go forwards, and do lots of hacking out.  I did a couple of weeks of working the pony every day for just 15 minutes either lunge/long-rein/free school, and never putting the rider on at all.  Keep it short and frequent and fun.  The next time I put the rider on, the pony went round like clockwork and had forgotten all about napping or stopping.  Within a couple of sessions with the rider, he tried it on again, I stepped forwards and used my voice and he went forwards.  I think, in my experience, just doing the lunge before you ride thing, won't be an instant fix and may even reinforce the boredom, it's more a case of using lunging instead of riding in the school in order to break the cycle and get the pony thinking forwards and not napping.  One thing that might help if you can get the pony out of the napping on the lunge, is then for the rider to be on the pony on the lunge, as an interim step.  This doesn't mean that Laura is in any way not capable, it is a training method for the pony.
		
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OK good thinking. We did today (hadn't seen this). Went well until canter work (see my reply above). So tomorrow we can hack, then Monday - hack. Rest of week I can do some lunge or long reining on way to work. Errr - will need to learn how to long rein though. Then Friday hack again - and so on for a couple of weeks?


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## book_lover (18 April 2015)

LinzyD said:



			Ooh, just thought of another thing that helped with a very idle Section C and my other niece.  The pony used to take her to the gate all the time, so I put a diamond of poles on the floor in the centre of the arena and called it 'the magic box'.  She had to mount inside the box, do transitions through the box, so doing lots of figures of 8 with trot-walk-trot through the magic box, walk-halt-walk, etc, and if the pony tried ambling off with her we'd do small turns in and out of the box (a bit like the circling thing mentioned above), and at the end of the session - and this was key - she would dismount inside the box and give the pony lots of praise and a treat.  It didn't take him long to learn that the gate was not the way to the end of the session, but the magic box might yield a treat or signal the end.  These Welshies - it's a constant game of wits!!!
		
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Great idea!

Also, if we'd had jumps up in the school today she may have been better - she seems to prefer those, but she needs to be able to work without jumping!


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## Exploding Chestnuts (18 April 2015)

More work, less feed, more lessons, in any order you think appropriate, lungeing is OK if you know how to do it, ie not whizzing round on a string as fast as possible like most people seem to do. Lungeing is an skill, though most people have no idea about that.................!!!!


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## book_lover (18 April 2015)

Bonkers2 said:



			More work, less feed, more lessons, in any order you think appropriate, lungeing is OK if you know how to do it, ie not whizzing round on a string as fast as possible like most people seem to do. Lungeing is an skill, though most people have no idea about that.................!!!!
		
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Great thanks Bonkers. At the moment we don't give a hard feed. She just gets a lick after work. ONE treat on going back in the field (any more and she loses her manners). At the mo the sweet grass is coming thick and fast so she's prob full of sugar. We need to tape her off soon I think. Will get onto instructor and get more lessons scheduled - once a month just not enough. Lungeing - I'm ok at it, BUT seem to struggle to slow her down. I know how I should be doing it (I think) - but she just wants to zoom around.


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## ester (18 April 2015)

get someone to teach you how to long rein and to lunge with two reins. I really think it would be invaluable for your to be able to do this and will reinforce any voice cues she has 

I just wondered whether it was case of horse fixing neck and dragging rider back in one direction and rider not being strong enough to keep the horse straight in which case I might ask if you were happy with the current bitting arrangement or whether something else for a bit might help make the point. If you aren't good enough I'd get a  small pro to ride her once a week or so for a bit. 

I think I would actually see if you can have someone but that will teach daughter but also school pony. If you could manage for pony to be schooled once a week, daughter to have a lesson once a week and you to long rein/lunge once a week and hack the rest of the time you might resolve it pretty quickly. I would err on the side of not having daughter ride in school without instructor for a little bit just to start producing good habits again.

and what lick?


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## book_lover (18 April 2015)

Hi Ester, ok some good ideas here. I'm currently 12 and a half stone (and falling!) lost a stone since Christmas. Still wonder if she'd buckle under the weight of me though 

OK no school riding for a bit then except lessons. Will contact instructor and ask if she can do 1 hour private lessons. Would it work to have her school the pony for 30 minutes then have Laura being taught for 30? Would that maybe work? Or better to have two individual visits? (I might struggle financially with that one though). 

Lick - the minty one (can't remember brand). We went from small feeds to lick, do you think it's a bad idea? People seem divided on this one.


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## Gloi (18 April 2015)

She's a substantial welsh cob, she won't buckle. It's not like you are going to be taking her hunting all day. Mind you , she'd probably enjoy that.


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## ozpoz (18 April 2015)

Licks can be full of sugar. 
I am struggling with the combination of a 10yr old rider and a green Welsh D. ( I love Welshies, and have had a few.) I would never have considered one for my daughter when she was 10. I honestly think at that age, however talented your little jockey may be, a pony who instils confidence is the way forward.
I think stronger bits etc can cause problems in a childs hands and I see no benefit in "games" except to the novice owner who isn't managing to ride through problems, sorry. Why not find an older rider to teach your girl her job, and look for a pony your child can have fun with. Take the pressure off both of you. : )


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## book_lover (18 April 2015)

hi Ozpoz, I think I agree re the bit, as Laura has fairly quiet hands but is still a child... we have a flash on and I have been wondering about taking that off.

I agree it's not the best match, in hindsight I wish I had held out for a smaller pony - but we aren't flush enough to keep this pony and buy a third. We've put a lot of work into this pony and while ever we're making progress we will persevere. If progress stops then we will have to reconsider. But buying a third pony (I have a horse too) is not an option financially and I doubt I could afford the perfect pony - Becky was £1200 and I wonder whether I could even ask that whilst she is being unwilling. So I doubt we could find the £3k for a perfect schoolmaster type.


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## book_lover (18 April 2015)

And also it is worth reiterating that things do get better when she is worked and ridden more - the question is whether they will get better ENOUGH for my daughter to be getting what she deserves out of the partnership.


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## ozpoz (18 April 2015)

Lots of people prefer to loan their outgrown ponies , rather than sell on and lose control of where they might end up - Maybe loaning both ways is worth looking into?


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## book_lover (18 April 2015)

Possibly, I hadn't thought of that. I wonder if then, she could get Becky back in a couple of years... I did find it hard to find a  suitable loan pony for her before though, so I'm not sure it would be so easy to loan one for her... 

I was wondering about giving it until the summer and if no improvement (after all we'll be working more, and she improves with more work), then we have to find another pony...


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## TGM (18 April 2015)

book_lover said:



			OK no school riding for a bit then except lessons. Will contact instructor and ask if she can do 1 hour private lessons. Would it work to have her school the pony for 30 minutes then have Laura being taught for 30? Would that maybe work?
		
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 I think with a pony that only naps in the school, doing an hour's work in the school is likely to be counter-productive.

Any chance you can send pony to instructor's yard, or another trainer's yard, for a couple of weeks or so, where pony can be trained to obey the forward aids, AND daughter can have lessons as well?

I think you really do need to have an experienced eye assess the combination of pony and daughter to work out where the problem lies - is pony in discomfort (eg saddle, hocks, feet, back, rider's hands, bit etc) or has it learned to take advantage of a less mature rider, or has pony never been properly been trained to be obedient to the leg.   If there is no physical discomfort, then pony needs very clear, consistent training to obey the forward aids, which may difficult for a young rider to do on their own.  I think if you can have some intensive training with a good trainer for a while it will give you a much clearer idea whether to persevere with this pony or look for a more straightforward schoolmaster.   They don't have to be expensive if they are older ponies, and as said above, there are often reliable ponies available for loan. (By the way, when I say 'intensive', I don't mean hours in the school, but consistent, regular sessions).


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## Penumbra (18 April 2015)

If the pony is a Welsh D, it's probable that her backing and bringing on was done entirely by adults. It also sounds like before she came to you, she wasn't used to all the traditional aids. Part of the problem could well be that the pony is a bit confused about what is being asked of her and your daughter can't quite reach all the right buttons. 

A Welsh D really is a lot of pony for a child to take on, no matter how good a rider they are, most children will lack the strength, co-ordination and timing needed to deal with issues like this, especially on a larger pony. She's unlikely to be able to follow the advice about turning in small circles or forcing the pony to back up further than it wants to. Some schooling by an adult will hopefully help, but it won't necessarily solve the problem entirely. 

It would obviously be sad to have to sell your pony, but if you want your daughter to continue to enjoy riding, you need to keep her confidence up. In some ways, I do think it would be a good idea for you to get on the pony- not just to help school her, but also to see what your daughter is dealing with. In some ways, backing up can feel quite scary from on top, especially if you know there's nothing you can do about it. 

Have you asked your daughter at all what she would like to do? I don't think it's fair to make a decision either way without at least asking her if she wants to persevere or not.


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## vanrim (19 April 2015)

Don't rule out pain as a cause of the napping. My mare started napping for no reason about 6 months after being backed. I assumed she was trying me out and put up with it for a whole 12 months before I got the vet out. Turned out she had grade iv pyloric stomach ulcers which the vet said are incredibly painful. I am gutted I didn't listen to her sooner.


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## Kaylum (19 April 2015)

If the saddle touches the soft part of the spine this can cause bucking and pain


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## book_lover (21 April 2015)

TGM said:



			I think with a pony that only naps in the school, doing an hour's work in the school is likely to be counter-productive.

Any chance you can send pony to instructor's yard, or another trainer's yard, for a couple of weeks or so, where pony can be trained to obey the forward aids, AND daughter can have lessons as well?

I think you really do need to have an experienced eye assess the combination of pony and daughter to work out where the problem lies - is pony in discomfort (eg saddle, hocks, feet, back, rider's hands, bit etc) or has it learned to take advantage of a less mature rider, or has pony never been properly been trained to be obedient to the leg.   If there is no physical discomfort, then pony needs very clear, consistent training to obey the forward aids, which may difficult for a young rider to do on their own.  I think if you can have some intensive training with a good trainer for a while it will give you a much clearer idea whether to persevere with this pony or look for a more straightforward schoolmaster.   They don't have to be expensive if they are older ponies, and as said above, there are often reliable ponies available for loan. (By the way, when I say 'intensive', I don't mean hours in the school, but consistent, regular sessions).
		
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Thanks TGM - I've started getting advice from the people around us and am still waiting for instructor to reply to my message! I'm going to post an update thread, but we've been riding every day for last few days and are seeing a huge improvement. Perhaps we just weren't working her enough.... but time will tell.

Penumbra thanks, absolutely and we had chatted about it before, she's adamant she wants to persevere with Becky but would consider a loan of a smaller pony only as a very last resort.

Vanrim and Kaylum thank you - have contacted my saddle fitter as a first port of call, she's excellent, will take it further if needed too.


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## sportsmansB (21 April 2015)

Just a point you have probably considered... If an adult got on a pony BECAUSE it was known to be misbehaving a bit, they would ride it very positively from the beginning... Is it possible that your daughter who loves her pony is giving her the benefit of the doubt each time and not catching the naughty behaviour soon enough? For example if yesterday she napped at the gate, I would be giving her a few good reminders on the neck on the outside approaching it for the first time the day after (and, to be honest, every day after until all problems were resolved!) to get her attention and show I was one step ahead- maybe a kid riding doesn't want to 'punish' her pony until she does something wrong, but the pony is spotting every opportunity!!


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## book_lover (21 April 2015)

sportsmansB said:



			Just a point you have probably considered... If an adult got on a pony BECAUSE it was known to be misbehaving a bit, they would ride it very positively from the beginning... Is it possible that your daughter who loves her pony is giving her the benefit of the doubt each time and not catching the naughty behaviour soon enough? For example if yesterday she napped at the gate, I would be giving her a few good reminders on the neck on the outside approaching it for the first time the day after (and, to be honest, every day after until all problems were resolved!) to get her attention and show I was one step ahead- maybe a kid riding doesn't want to 'punish' her pony until she does something wrong, but the pony is spotting every opportunity!!
		
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good point SportsmanB! Yes she would naturally only remind pony AFTER something had gone wrong. But yesterday the livery owner (after she had napped the first time at my horse) was getting her to put the leg on just before she got to my horse... she would trot past other horses fine yesterday but was trying not to canter past them. Another thing I have to point out to Laura is that, just because it's going well, don't push it. Especially as we're still getting her fit. Laura loves cantering, so when Becky is being good she wants to canter a lot - I got her to stop before Becky became too tired and sweaty though (at which point we might start having problems again).


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## muckypony (21 April 2015)

ozpoz said:



			I am struggling with the combination of a 10yr old rider and a green Welsh D. ( I love Welshies, and have had a few.) I would never have considered one for my daughter when she was 10. I honestly think at that age, however talented your little jockey may be, a pony who instils confidence is the way forward.
I think stronger bits etc can cause problems in a childs hands and I see no benefit in "games" except to the novice owner who isn't managing to ride through problems, sorry. Why not find an older rider to teach your girl her job, and look for a pony your child can have fun with. Take the pressure off both of you. : )
		
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Sorry but I completely agree with this. Height being irrelevant (I agree that temperament is key), Welshies are very different to ponies than what people think, generally they are more like small horses than ponies. As someone else mentioned, they are usually backed by adults only. My boy is wonderful but he has his moments and they would be terrifying for a child to deal with. Not to mention the fact that he probably wouldn't be wonderful with a sole child rider in the first place. £1,200 is quite cheap for a Welsh that is going well under-saddle (which I assume she was when you bought her for a child?) I am all for people persevering but this situation involves a child. Unless you are willing to invest in regular lessons, then I think you may be better off cutting your losses before you end up with a nightmare pony and a child that doesn't want to ride at all anymore. Sorry..


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## book_lover (21 April 2015)

muckypony said:



			Sorry but I completely agree with this. Height being irrelevant (I agree that temperament is key), Welshies are very different to ponies than what people think, generally they are more like small horses than ponies. As someone else mentioned, they are usually backed by adults only. My boy is wonderful but he has his moments and they would be terrifying for a child to deal with. Not to mention the fact that he probably wouldn't be wonderful with a sole child rider in the first place. £1,200 is quite cheap for a Welsh that is going well under-saddle (which I assume she was when you bought her for a child?) I am all for people persevering but this situation involves a child. Unless you are willing to invest in regular lessons, then I think you may be better off cutting your losses before you end up with a nightmare pony and a child that doesn't want to ride at all anymore. Sorry..
		
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And you would have us do that when the situation is improving? I cannot stress enough that this pony is not dangerous (we have had a dangerous pony, and I know the difference!). So you are entitled to your opinion but we will be persevering - thanks. If this comes across as defensive you must forgive me - you did feel the need to put "sorry" at  the end of the statement. My most recent post indicates that we are now seeing a huge improvement and I also stated that they had been super together in the past. I don't think you can generally say that no Welsh is ever suitable for a child.

Sorry  I am getting more assertive in my responses if I don't agree with what people are saying.


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## book_lover (21 April 2015)

I do agree with you when you say height is irrelevant though. The pony is 14.1hh so yes on the larger side. But she CAN be very biddable. I am not of the opinion that a child should have a perfect push button pony - Becky has taught Laura SO much. I think they are going to be great together if we keep up the good work, which I've talked about in my most recent thread "Update on cheeky pony". I would only reconsider if she didn't improve when out and about with Laura.


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## book_lover (21 April 2015)

muckypony said:



			Sorry but I completely agree with this. Height being irrelevant (I agree that temperament is key), Welshies are very different to ponies than what people think, generally they are more like small horses than ponies. As someone else mentioned, they are usually backed by adults only. My boy is wonderful but he has his moments and they would be terrifying for a child to deal with. Not to mention the fact that he probably wouldn't be wonderful with a sole child rider in the first place. £1,200 is quite cheap for a Welsh that is going well under-saddle (which I assume she was when you bought her for a child?) I am all for people persevering but this situation involves a child. Unless you are willing to invest in regular lessons, then I think you may be better off cutting your losses before you end up with a nightmare pony and a child that doesn't want to ride at all anymore. Sorry..
		
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Also - this part "before you end up with a nightmare pony and a child that doesn't want to ride at all anymore. Sorry" - this happened with her first pony (a Dartmoor) who was a NIGHTMARE. We did exactly as you have suggested. But this situation is different - and I know the difference. Laura still loves riding her - there is no chance this pony will affect her confidence in that way. When I posted this we were having a bad patch (we tend to after Bex has had a break) but things are improving again and she's practically perfect for L now. Why would we sell her?? That would be more traumatic for my daughter, I do think people underestimate that. I've sought advice from the pros around me and they say "no way get a different pony for Laura, it's not straight forward but she is doing very well with this one".


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## ester (21 April 2015)

sportsmansB said:



			Just a point you have probably considered... If an adult got on a pony BECAUSE it was known to be misbehaving a bit, they would ride it very positively from the beginning... Is it possible that your daughter who loves her pony is giving her the benefit of the doubt each time and not catching the naughty behaviour soon enough? For example if yesterday she napped at the gate, I would be giving her a few good reminders on the neck on the outside approaching it for the first time the day after (and, to be honest, every day after until all problems were resolved!) to get her attention and show I was one step ahead- maybe a kid riding doesn't want to 'punish' her pony until she does something wrong, but the pony is spotting every opportunity!!
		
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Yup that is where I was coming from with regards to daughter not riding without instruction and someone else working the mare to try and set some better boundaries. You do always have to keep on top of them though. Mine is 14.2 22yo and would be described by most as a schoolmaster, especially as if you do it correctly he will reward you, schooled and competed up to elem dressage, fair amount of jumping, hunting etc generally a good egg. 

But if the fancy take him he will occasionally try it, he tried it with a pro at the first fence on an XC course and she couldn't believe it as he had been going and straight- he was told under no uncertain terms was that acceptable and didn't try it again. He tries it with my mum, either spooking or more amusingly spending half the session desperate to demonstrate his medium trot, he's tried it with my sister, and still occasionally with me...after 10 years. He particularly likes to check whether he is really going to have to go forwards and if you say yes then spooking to see if that unnerves you. 

His previous owner had him as a small 12 yo and was an excellent rider and not put off by him and he has been used by a local girl for lessons too and is also ridden by a more novice sharer - but she either has a lesson from the YO or me and I think he can only do that, like a lot of ponies , if someone is keeping on top of them the rest of the time too.


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## book_lover (21 April 2015)

ester said:



			Yup that is where I was coming from with regards to daughter not riding without instruction and someone else working the mare to try and set some better boundaries. You do always have to keep on top of them though. Mine is 14.2 22yo and would be described by most as a schoolmaster, especially as if you do it correctly he will reward you, schooled and competed up to elem dressage, fair amount of jumping, hunting etc generally a good egg. 

But if the fancy take him he will occasionally try it, he tried it with a pro at the first fence on an XC course and she couldn't believe it as he had been going and straight- he was told under no uncertain terms was that acceptable and didn't try it again. He tries it with my mum, either spooking or more amusingly spending half the session desperate to demonstrate his medium trot, he's tried it with my sister, and still occasionally with me...after 10 years. He particularly likes to check whether he is really going to have to go forwards and if you say yes then spooking to see if that unnerves you. 

His previous owner had him as a small 12 yo and was an excellent rider and not put off by him and he has been used by a local girl for lessons too and is also ridden by a more novice sharer - but she either has a lesson from the YO or me and I think he can only do that, like a lot of ponies , if someone is keeping on top of them the rest of the time too.
		
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Thanks Ester. You see - why would anyone want a push button pony when you can have a character like our two?  

I've posted a happy update - see here:

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?697645-Update-on-cheeky-pony

Feeling much more positive now. Will be even better when the instructor decides to reply to my message about extra lessons!


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## book_lover (21 April 2015)

ester said:



			especially as if you do it correctly he will reward you, schooled and competed up to elem dressage, fair amount of jumping, hunting etc generally a good egg.
		
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Also, it is worth reiterating that I think Laura will learn better riding because as you said - if you do it correctly they reward you. She's really having to learn to be a responsive and actually a pre-emptive rider. She still has a lot to learn and on a push button pony that just did anything regardless - I don't think she'd learn AS much.

Am hoping the instructor (a small adult who schools ponies and events for a living too) will ride Becky too - think you're right and it will really help.


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## rowan666 (21 April 2015)

LinzyD said:



			Ooh, just thought of another thing that helped with a very idle Section C and my other niece.  The pony used to take her to the gate all the time, so I put a diamond of poles on the floor in the centre of the arena and called it 'the magic box'.  She had to mount inside the box, do transitions through the box, so doing lots of figures of 8 with trot-walk-trot through the magic box, walk-halt-walk, etc, 
and if the pony tried ambling off with her we'd do small turns in and out of the box (a bit like the circling thing mentioned above), and at the end of the session - and this was key - she would dismount inside the box and give the pony lots of praise and a treat.  It didn't take him long to learn that the gate was not the way to the end of the session, but the magic box might yield a treat or signal the end.  These Welshies - it's a constant game of wits!!!
		
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^^ This is a great idea, will be giving this ago with my naughty sec A!


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## book_lover (21 April 2015)

rowan666 said:



			^^ This is a great idea, will be giving this ago with my naughty sec A!
		
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Welshies - who'd have 'em eh?


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