# Got a bit unsettled today...League Against Cruel Sports



## skewby (9 December 2009)

This post is not intended to be provocative, just to get information.

A few of the guys I work with taunt me about being into "blood sports" - I don't go on about it, but while I was getting my horse used to hunting I went on weekday meets, on the secretary's advice.  I was open about why I needed the days, as odd days off are frowned upon, and also, they think you're off to interviews!

It's all good natured, and I don't get drawn in (apart from sometimes asking, do they know where the chicken roll in their sarnies has come from) but today one sent me a link to the LACS site.

I have to say, I was a bit unnerved.  I am going hunting to make my own mind up, but some of the stuff on there was distressing.  Foxes and cubs being clubbed to death with spades - is this correct?  Sorry if I am hugely naive and I should know that this is what happens, whilst I am chatting away swigging port.

I don't know that it would stop me going, if it did - I suppose I am politely asking, what your thoughts are?  We are clearly all animal lovers of one ilk or another.  How do we reconcile it?   I have always believed, foxes will be culled one way or another - and another can be snaring or shooting, neither of which I approve.

Slate me if you must!  Just a question.  Thank you all for any replies.


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## Dogstar (9 December 2009)

There are scumbos who abuse animals in all animal/horse related sports; thankfully they are few and far between in hunting, but when it does happen it is the individuals to blame- it should not tarnish the whole of hunting (though of course it does). Also, not everything the antis say is true believe it or not! and some of the stuff they use is decades old.


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## popsicle (9 December 2009)

There is a ban on hunting fox, you are just going to follow a pre laid scent and enjoy a good fast hack.  Remind them of that


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## Tinkerbee (9 December 2009)

I'd just think...

Are the facts on such an organisations website likely to be unbiased and indicative of hunting as a whole? 

I've seen "terriermen" not affiliated with any hunt to horrid things to foxes. The LACS would probably pick up on incidents such as this and paint them as the norm/widespread. Do such things go on in hunting circles? Probably. But its definately not the norm. Go hunting, see for yourself, make up your own mind based on real knowledge rather than propaganda.


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## spacefaer (10 December 2009)

The League must find it frustrating that despite their best attempts, that we are still operating within the law that they wanted put in place - and so must be floundering somewhat with nothing to fight against. Their prosecutions for the most part have been thrown out and it must be like fighting a marshmallow for them.

They are bound to use old and emotive photos to try to stir up anti-hunting feeling, but trail hunting, following a man laid scent .... it's hard to get the most virulent anti worked up about that..... what may have happened in the past with some rogue individuals is just that - in the past.


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## cptrayes (10 December 2009)

I can't reconcile it Skewby, which is why I don't do it any more, I go with a Drag Hunt.

If you just think about cubbing, how can you do it if what you have read distrubs you? Position loads of people around a wood that you know there are adolescent foxes in. Get them to slap their boots or make any other noise, to turn the cubs back into the copse if they try to get out. Then put a pack of hounds in..........    Please correct me if it's changed folks, but that's how the Berkeley did it 20 years ago.

If your hunt is hunting fox, not a trail, (we know it's illegal but let's be honest, it's being done) then you need to decide whether you can reconcile yourself to getting your fun courtesy of an animal's discomfort. The last fox hunt I went on I saw the fox running for its life, ears flat against its head, hounds fifty yards behind and catching up. I couldn't go again.

I have no problem with them being shot if there are too many. I just have a problem with me, (no-one else, reader, you do whatever you want), getting my own fun by chasing an animal with a pack of hounds.

Then again, I'm lucky, I have two drag packs and a bloodhound pack to choose from within travel distance. You might not have that option.


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## combat_claire (10 December 2009)

You have to make your mind up, anti-hunting websites are very skilled at using images taken abroad or road traffic victims to say 'look what those evil hunting types do'. A notorious picture of digging out turned out to be filmed in America.

There was also a big claim that hunts pre-ban were breeding foxes to hunt, we don't need to, foxes can breed all by themselves. The major 'evidence' for this was  a photograph supposedly taken in Sinnington country of caged fox cubs. The fox cubs were then supposedly released for being in poor condition. There were never any photos of hunt members near the cage and lets face it if you were going to breed foxes to hunt, you'd keep them in tip top condition. The evidence suggests that the reasons no member of hunt staff were seen visiting was that they didn't know they were there! 

Thirdly there was the case of Copper the Fox, who was being hunted, found his way blocked by saboteurs and went to ground in a rabbit hole which was too small to get all of him in. This fox was later smuggled out up a sab's jumper and presented as evidence that hunting produced shock and stress for the hunted animal. The major flaw being that forced into a burrow, sat on by a sab and then carried in a human jumper is not typical of a hunting day and can hardly be relied on as a scientific study. 

If the anti-hunting brigade has to falsify evidence on three very large planks in their argument - that of hunting not being necessary for pest control, cruelty to hunted animal and terrierwork, does that not make you wonder just what else they are making up on their websites?? 

One thing that the anti-hunting opponents have not truly managed to grasp is that fox populations will still be controlled whether hunting makes a return or not. Hunts may now be restricted to legal methods, which incidentally CPtrayes they are doing their utmost to abide by as the handful of cases successfully prosecuted shows; but landowners will simply shoot more foxes or use un-regulated terriermen. At the present time every hunt terrierman or countryman has to be registered with the MFHA and work to a strict code of conduct. If they break these then disciplinary measures can and will be taken. 

On the flip side hunting has many benefits for farming, the environment and the local community. Prof Roger Scruton has written extensively on social cohesion created within hunting; it is no secret that the fallen stock scheme provides the cheapest form of compliance with the animal-by products regs and that hunting and shooting people plant more hedges and woodland than any other group in the UK, with significant benefits for species other than the quarry. 

I can only reiterate what other posters have said in that only you can make your mind up. If you see things you dislike, that cannot have an explanation then give up hunting when the ban is overturned.


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## combat_claire (10 December 2009)

Cptrayes, do you really think that drag hunting as a sport will survive if the next election provides an unfavourable result and hunting disappears for ever?? It is a fact that many drag hunts exist on the back of quarry hunts. Some kennel with these packs and rely on this reduction in costs to keep going, our local MFH even clears country with the landowners to keep the drag going because the masters of the drag hounds do not have the time, inclination or connections to complete this work themselves. What do drag hunts provide the landowner with? Nothing there is no fallen stock collection, no legal pest control in any way, shape or form but the horses still create damage to the land. 

Autumn hunting has changed due to the ban, many packs now flush to a bird of prey or a gun which is allowed. Pre-Ban autumn hunting was always a job of work - the secretive early morning slaughter was a load of bollocks written up by an imaginative PR department. The fact is that juvenile cubs who are independent of their families are dispersed from woodland and one or two older foxes would be culled. There would have been no point in slaughtering everything in sight as the hunt would have folded by early December! Population management not population extermination. As for the secretive early mornings, it is far too hot later in the day in August to be riding about in thick tweed and pretty pointless as the scent was non-existent. Yet another lie perpetuated by the anti-hunting lobby. 

Interestingly you claim that everyone knows hunts are breaking the law. I ask where your evidence is of this? There are over 300 packs of hounds going out on average twice a week for about 30 weeks of the year making approximately 18,000 hunting days a year. That makes over 80,000 hunting days since the ban, yet in that period we have seen 8 prosecutions of hunts - I don't count the poaching convictions under the Act. Of the 8 prosecutions (Percy, Ullswater, Isle of Wight, Heythrop, Exmoor, Minehead Harriers, Quantock Staghounds, D &amp; S Staghounds) - of these 5 were thrown out through lack of evidence, The Exmoor was overturned on appeal. The Quantocks believed they were abiding by the two hound exemption but were found guilty and the Harriers wrongly believed that hunting a mangy fox could be exempt. This equates to 0.0025% of hunts being found illegally hunting. Suggests to me that given how many monitors are out harrassing hunts,  finding no evidence of illegal hunting suggests that they are either crap at their work or hunts are largely obeying the law. 

To me hunting with hounds will be the most effective and humane method, there was only ever one outcome - a quick death or a clean get away. I'm not sure the fox that was seen with its jaw shot off or indeed the one limping around with a missing front leg will agree that shooting is not a problem! The fact that I enjoy riding across country and following hounds does not detract from the fact that hunting is the management method of choice.


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## RunToEarth (10 December 2009)

I will comment on how worrying it is that not even the field out hunting seeming understand the law, or the sport.


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## combat_claire (10 December 2009)

You can't really blame them, when not even the judiciary fully understand the law and its implications. How can you even begin to determine the intent of someone to break the law??? 

I hunt with three different types of hounds under the Hunting Act 2004 and I am always getting out my Hunting Handbook at the start of their respective seasons for a salient explanation of the main points of the act.


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## zefragile (10 December 2009)

Nothing there is no fallen stock collection, no legal pest control in any way, shape or form but the horses still create damage to the land.
		
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I think cptrayes hunts with the Cheshire Farmers who I believe do collect fallen stock.


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## combat_claire (10 December 2009)

That is fair enough, but I would guess they are in the minority of drag packs.


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## Maesfen (10 December 2009)

Nothing there is no fallen stock collection, no legal pest control in any way, shape or form but the horses still create damage to the land.
		
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I think cptrayes hunts with the Cheshire Farmers who I believe do collect fallen stock.
		
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Forgive me if I'm wrong but I was under the impression there isn't a Cheshire Farmers' pack of hounds;  I'll certainly take it back if I'm wrong but in Cheshire there are -
The Cheshire Hounds (fox)
The Cheshire Forest Hounds (fox)
The North East Cheshire Draghounds
The Vale Royal Bloodhounds who hunt in Cheshire, Wynnstay, North Shropshire and North Staff's countries.
The Royal Rock Beagles
The Cheshire Beagles.
The Wynnstay (fox) also hunt part of Cheshire.

That's it as far as my old brain goes so are they a new pack, which type and where are they based? (sorry, supposed I should have asked cptrayes but you were the one to mention them so you drew the short straw, lol!).


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## zefragile (10 December 2009)

They are a drag pack, based in Wilmslow.


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## Maesfen (10 December 2009)

Aah, thank you!  Slapped wrist for me then though my excuse is it's up the other end of the county so we'd never encounter them!  I'll keep it shut in future, lol.


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## zefragile (10 December 2009)

Haha, no probs!


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## BigBird146 (10 December 2009)

Cptrayes, do you really think that drag hunting as a sport will survive if the next election provides an unfavourable result and hunting disappears for ever?? It is a fact that many drag hunts exist on the back of quarry hunts. Some kennel with these packs and rely on this reduction'
Cheshire Farmers &amp; NECD hunt were both around well before the ban actually.
		
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## RunToEarth (10 December 2009)

You can't really blame them, when not even the judiciary fully understand the law and its implications. How can you even begin to determine the intent of someone to break the law??? 

I hunt with three different types of hounds under the Hunting Act 2004 and I am always getting out my Hunting Handbook at the start of their respective seasons for a salient explanation of the main points of the act.
		
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Cetainly not suggesting that, I think there are VERY few people in this country that FULLY understand the hunting act, in ever its most simple of terms.
But no basic understanding. Trail hunting?


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## combat_claire (10 December 2009)

Where did I say they weren't?? I am looking at a scenario post-2010 where there are no quarry packs left because of a tightening of the legislation, how are those packs who have heavy reliance on kennels, country clearing and pest control services of the quarry packs going to make ends meet and continue to exist. 

I have no problem with drag packs and people who go dragging, but they give little back to the countryside other than being a jolly for the riders.


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## combat_claire (10 December 2009)

Hmmm okay that is a little bit dim, if they can't grasp that basic idea then we're doomed, Captain Mannering, doomed, doomed.....


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## RunToEarth (10 December 2009)

I don't really like coming into loggerheads with you CC, because you seem out to have an argument, and the way this day is progressing, I think it's best you don't lure me into one. 
In a perfect world, we would all be hunting the we used to, but in the public eye we aren't.
I think it would do for fields to know what type of hunt they are on, so when some little oik in the office tries to make you feel like a criminal, you have a dignified response.


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## Paris1 (10 December 2009)

On a different note isn't that bullying at work?

 I would not be happy being sent something like that at work.


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## cptrayes (10 December 2009)

Cptrayes, do you really think that drag hunting as a sport will survive if the next election provides an unfavourable result and hunting disappears for ever??.
		
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Ummmm...... since two of the packs that I have hunted with have co-existed with fox packs for decades and the one that I now subscribe to began years  before the ban and all are self-financing in complete independence of fox hunts .......errr..... call me stupid if you like, but .......  well....... yes, I do.


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## cptrayes (10 December 2009)

You can't really blame them, when not even the judiciary fully understand the law and its implications. How can you even begin to determine the intent of someone to break the law???
		
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Intent to break the law is unfortunately not relevant. You are guilty if you break the law whether you intended to, didn't intend to, or were completely ignorant that you were breaking the law. That's the law.

And we can't pick and choose what laws we intend to stick by and which we don't. There are plenty of people in this country who think paedophilia is harmless and should be legal. Whilst I accept this is an extreme example, if people are allowed to pick and choose which laws to ignore and which to stick by, the whole of society would break down.

The hunting law is a badly conceived law, but it does need to be repealed and not ignored. You have a continuing fight on your hands I'm afraid.


PS on a separate note, yes my drag picks up fallen stock. If you think that your hunt offers a "service" to farmers by killing foxes don't make me laugh. One of the key arguments of the anti-hunting lobby was how few foxes were actually caught. Another was how foxes thrive in hunted areas. And any farmer who wants his foxes killed without any damage to his land or fences simply calls in a couple of the multitude of people queueing up to be allowed to shoot them!  Farmers let you on their land for the same reasons exactly as they let us - we collect their fallen stock and they love to see riders and hounds enjoying themselves in the country.


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## RunToEarth (10 December 2009)

I never really understood where drag hunting came from. 
I mean, was it for the love of hounds working- and if so why not just hunt quarry? 
Or was it for a little bit of a free for all around the countryside? 
I have been out with a drag pack before, but I fondly recall my friend comparing it to her rampant rabbit- it's all very well and good, but it anyone's ideal world, who the hell would ever have need or use for one?


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## spacefaer (10 December 2009)

PMSL - fab Rosiie - couldn't have put it better myself 

good question too - what is the origin of drag hunting - bit of a bastard son of the original surely?


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## Starbucks (10 December 2009)

Guys - lots of bickering again.

I don't see why OP is in the wrong for questioning her beliefs.  I do!  I'm not into some arrears of hunting (i.e. terrier work) but I'm not going to stop people from doing it.


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## tootsietoo (10 December 2009)

That is the best way of describing the difference between draghunting and foxhunting that I have ever heard


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## cptrayes (10 December 2009)

"If you think that your hunt offers a "service" to farmers by killing foxes don't make me laugh." 
when we killed 99 brace above ground and another 83 brace with terriers between 1 aug and 12 mar
is that not a service , drag hunts dont do anythin for farmers and i would suggest you are biased against fox hunting
		
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Couldn't care less about fox hunting myself. Your hunt is unusual in the number it kills but it doesn't take away from the fact that, around here at least, there are shooters queueing up to provide the same service with no damage to the ground or fences whatsoever.

Why do you think riders are needed anyway? A foot pack would do the same job!

We do the same irreplaceable  service as you do -pick up fallen stock.

Bias? not from me, but I sense plenty from you!


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## cptrayes (10 December 2009)

Why do a minority of fox hunters have such a problem with the idea that some of us may fox hunt and drag hunt for the pure thrill of riding horses across country that we cannot get access to any other way?

Can we not just accept that we have two completely different sports which look superficially similar?

Or does is so bug the hell out of "pure" fox hunters that a substantial proportion of their field are perfectly happy to be allowed to hunt following a trail with no fox involved that you cannot let it rest without trying to tell the rest of us that we are wrong in enjoying what we enjoy?


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## cptrayes (10 December 2009)

"A foot pack would do the same job"

exactly my point , why waste a good day with horses around interfereing with the job
		
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Perhaps because they are the ones who pay for it?


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## GreenMill (10 December 2009)

Firstly let me apologise for this being my first post, i'm not a troll, simply someone who's anti parents are far to techy. 

Firstly i have to say i believe firmly that in a debate over such an emotive subject we can never expect everyone to play nice. You will constantly have the extremists on both sides.

Sometimes i compare both pro parties and anti parties to football hooligans. You get some people who are so wrapped up in the emotion of the sport and are truly willing to fight for what they believe, and you also get those who are purely there for the fight. And that IMHO is where the problems mainly lie. I think plenty of regular hunters and hunt staff constantly prove how civilised and willing to accept other peoples opinions they are, same with anti's. Although a few of you pro's on here are doing a good job of proving how they can also not take in anything anyone else says! CC i admire how politically you word your posts, and how obviously well informed they are. 

In reply to the original post, to be quite honest with you anyone that calls themself and animal lover that isn't at lease partly distressed by some of the images on there doesn't have the right to call themselves an animal lover. So at least you have that. However i would say that some of those images may either be fake or something taken extremely out of context, and that doesn't only happen on the anti side.

I shan't state which hunt but i took my horse cubbing early this season, and actually left because of how awful i thought the amount of foxes being slaughtered was. And that was from one covert. However i was then talkied into going out again once cubbing had stopped and did not see anything but a hare killed, a hare they didn't even intend to kill. And yet it says on their website "hunting within the law", clearly though they aren't. SO how is a mounted field, of which a lot only go because they think it's banned supposed to know any different?

I am starting to sound very anti now, and in truth i'm not. I am pro controlling a fox population, i feel hunting with hounds is a far more humane method than shooting or indeed poison!! However i have been witness far to many times to people from the hunting community hunting and killing animals for their own pleasure. I speak from experience after a few seasons hunting, relationships with hunt staff and many of my friends being within the hunting community. 

To be honest with you i fail to see how i could of ever justified paying for this barbaric act, however after experience with another hunt i am starting to see why i am pro in a purely anti family. Some hunts tarnish all the others with a bad brush, as do some people. 

And in reply to the comment about a mounted field, how do you think a hunt would have the up-keep of however many couple of hounds, lorry's, staff, buildings etc WITHOUT a mounted and PAYING field? Your naieve if you think hunting would be better off without paying 'customers'. 

I don't see anything wrong with drag hunting, it's upto the farmer whether or not they allow them onto his/her land. And IMO what's wrong with a group of people having a nice enjoyable day whilst crossing country and following hounds just because they don't want to see a fox killed?

Sorry for the novel, when your in an anti family with pro friends it's hard to have a decent discussion about it!


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## cptrayes (10 December 2009)

So it's a foot pack. Your point?

If that's your game just play it. Why do some people, not necessarily you, try to tell other people that they shouldn't be playing the game they want to play? Beats me, it really does.


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## Starbucks (10 December 2009)

i want to know where snobby Rosiie came from?  Last time I saw her she was a really nice girls.  apparently things change!


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## Starbucks (10 December 2009)

really Rosiie, as someome who knows you, you aren;t doing yourself any favours.


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## RunToEarth (11 December 2009)

I'd really love you to pick apart my posts on this thread and point out where I am so snobby, sarah? 
What is it to you anyway, I'm happy, I haven't said anything to upset you, let me be.


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## RunToEarth (11 December 2009)

really Rosiie, as someome who knows you, you aren;t doing yourself any favours. 

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Yikes didn't see this one either, two posts in a row, I am on the front of your mind...
Honestly S? I haven't seen you or spoken to you in person for 3years + now, thats quite a substantial amount of time, I hardly think you can play the "thats not the Rosie I used to know" card. Anyway, not particularly bothered about a public argument on here. PM me is you have a problem with...me.


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## Starbucks (11 December 2009)

You are right no need to argue.. sorry for being a bitch.


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## combat_claire (11 December 2009)

What are you talking about? My last post was agreeing with you in the light of the new information you supplied that people in your hunt didn't understand the concept of trail hunting.


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## combat_claire (11 December 2009)

You are not reading my posts. I am looking at a scenario where quarry packs have gone altogether. The drag packs that make no contribution to farming are unlikely to be tolerated unless some arrangement is made to compensate the farmer for the damage caused to his land.  Penalties for landowners being in breach of cross compliance regulations are becoming far too stringent for many to risk damage to their land without return.

I admitted earlier that I hadn't realised that your drag pack collected fallen stock, but I still believe they are in the minority among drag packs. Our local pack certainly feed biscuit as they kennel with the beagles.


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## combat_claire (11 December 2009)

It would be easier to debate with you if you actually understood the  the Hunting Act 2004. The High Court Judgement upheld the acquittal of Tony Wright 

In legal terms the judgment limits the definition of 'hunting' to the pursuit of a mammal with dogs; it upholds the presumption of innocence for people involved in legal hunting by putting the burden of proof on the prosecution to prove that any hunting is illegal; and it confirms that 'hunting' can only be intentional - you cannot hunt by accident.

So having cleared that one up, do you now concede that the majority of UK hunts are working within this confusing law to the best of their ability. Or do you have some staggering evidence of widespread law breaking?? 

Don't worry we will be fighting for repeal, in the mean time we work within the law as written. We are not picking and choosing which laws we obey.

Once again you fail to read or understand any of my post before responding. Hunting pre-ban was always about population management not extermination. I have seen some of the ridiculous bags where people go out lamping and kill every fox within sight, regardless of health and age. Some foxes are good for farms, they eat rabbits and slugs, too many foxes become a problem and that is when targeted population management based on natural selection against the weak or sick fox, which is most likely to predate livestock comes into play. If you go out with a rifle, how can you guarantee that the fox that killed lambs the night before is the same one you shot. Skiddaw Lad will be able to tell you about the lambing call outs that the fell packs were engaged with. Now the Act only allows terriers to be used to protect gamebirds, not livestock. Makes no sense at all does it?? 

I would also like to reiterate that shooting does not have a 100% record in clean kills, that would be impossible, especially shooting at night. Horrendous wounding injuries which condemn a fox to starvation or a lingering death to gangrene will never be acceptable in my view.


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## combat_claire (11 December 2009)

One of our subscribers stated that hunting with a drag pack was like kissing your sister, fun but not as good as the real thing!


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## combat_claire (11 December 2009)

Good post Greenmill. Can't be easy for you in your situation. Hope you stick around with your contributions. Has anyone seen Scratchline about recently?? 

I guess it all depends on what exemption the pack was attempting, not all hunts trail hunt as their main activity, a lot flush to guns or a bird of prey or use other exemptions within the Act,  but we are using hounds who are not robots, and if they pick up an interesting smell that isn't the laid trail then the whips must be well on the ball to prevent any unfortunate incidents.


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## Simsar (11 December 2009)

And we can't pick and choose what laws we intend to stick by and which we don't. There are plenty of people in this country who think paedophilia is harmless and should be legal. Whilst I accept this is an extreme example, if people are allowed to pick and choose which laws to ignore and which to stick by, the whole of society would break down.

I wasn't going to join in with this argument but I fail to see how ANY decent person could compare the hunting argument with the above on PAEDOPHILIA.

  Since this government came to power there has been no society left to break down IMHO!!

I understand what the OP was trying to get at but shame on you for such a comparison.


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## abb123 (11 December 2009)

I think RosiiePimms has a point. People should be aware of what type of hunt they are going which can be difficult for newcomers. I consider myself definately as a newcomer and was considering going on a drag hunt or a pre-ban fox hunt. I decided against the fox hunt as, after reading around I became aware that fox hunting still occurs but within the law (example using hawks). I dont know much about that and to be honest I dont want to. I am far more comfortable knowing that I can go out and enjoy the riding AND the hounds without worrying about being involved in fox hunting.


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## combat_claire (11 December 2009)

I applaud you for researching and making your own mind up. The majority of packs will make an announcement as to which exemptions they will be employing on a hunting day.

For example our minkhound masters will stand up at the meet and announce that we will be hunting rats, hound exercising or following a pre-laid trail. This way there is no confusion about what is supposed to be happening.


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## skewby (11 December 2009)

I think it would do for fields to know what type of hunt they are on, so when some little oik in the office tries to make you feel like a criminal, you have a dignified response.
		
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Gosh, did I say I found myself in a field of horses and hounds, and didn't know what the aim of the day was?  I do apologise for not making myself clear.

I also don't see how my OP was about the legality of it - though that's an interesting turn the thread has taken, and I have learned a lot, so thank you to those who have taken the time to share their considerable knowledge, it has helped clarify things for me.

I consider asking questions on here, of you knowledgable hunting folk, to be part of my research.  I find out as much as I can, and inevitably I find conflicting information or am not sure about something.  So shoot me for not being born with the knowledge, I don't care   and clearly neither do the others who give me their advice and help freely on here, and via PM.

As far as I am concerned, my hunt has been fabulously welcoming and encouraging to me, and they are the ones who matter, really.  If they took the view I should know it all before I went out with them, they'd have to make me sit an entrance exam.  Luckily this does not seem to be their stance, and they don't penalise me for being new to the sport - they field my many questions quite happily and I have actually been commended for being unafraid to ask "dumb" questions when I'm out.  I'm new, I don't really know what's going on, I really don't see why I should need to pretend that I do!

It's a shame that others on the field have pointed out they are impressed with my forthrightness, as they clearly didn't feel comfortable enough to ask what they wanted to know when they were in my position.

Perhaps my OP was ridiculous, but I still don't truly see why.  The mounted field is kept pretty much away from the "action" the times I have been out.  I wanted to find out more of the detail, I have two sources - MFHA and LACS, I thought that here would be the best place to ask those who will know more, and will tell me the truth.  It was just a question 

If I have to apologise for not being born on the back of a horse, to a hunting family, then so be it, if it makes you feel happy or superior to me, knock yourself out


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## cptrayes (11 December 2009)

It would be easier to debate with you if you actually understood the  the Hunting Act 2004. The High Court Judgement upheld the acquittal of Tony Wright etc etc etc etc etc.
		
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Thankyou for your lecture but I am actually a Justice of the Peace and I do know how the law works 

I know from the horse's mouth that the fox hunt nearest me is hunting fox. They asked me to go out with them. As  a JP I cannot break the law so I asked them if they were hunting fox and they said yes.

My drag do not feed the hounds with the meat run, they are not allowed by current H&amp;S or DEFRA or some other rules. If you read the article in H&amp;H last week you would have known that we have a meat run, how much it costs, and how it cannot be fed to our hounds.


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## Starbucks (11 December 2009)

Was gonna say earlier, hunts have to pay to get rid of fallen stock, not so easy as just feeding to hounds nowadays.


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## cptrayes (11 December 2009)

And we can't pick and choose what laws we intend to stick by and which we don't. There are plenty of people in this country who think paedophilia is harmless and should be legal. Whilst I accept this is an extreme example, if people are allowed to pick and choose which laws to ignore and which to stick by, the whole of society would break down.

I wasn't going to join in with this argument but I fail to see how ANY decent person could compare the hunting argument with the above on PAEDOPHILIA.

  Since this government came to power there has been no society left to break down IMHO!!

I understand what the OP was trying to get at but shame on you for such a comparison.
		
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I am not comparing the hunting argument with paedophilia. I am comparing a decision to break the law in one area with a decision to break the law in another, both on the basis that you consider what you do is acceptable. While one is clearly much less unacceptable to society than the other, the point was valid.

I could not give a fig about the hunting argument, you hunt what you like. My conscience is my conscience and yours is yours.  But there is undoubtedly a growing trend among hunts, (fuelled by the Association of Chief Police Officers statement that prosecuting hunting is to be considered very low priority) of ignoring what is admittedly a deeply flawed law, and my point is that in a civilised, democratic society we cannot pick and choose what laws we stick by and which we don't . 

I am sure that a lot of hunting people are simply hoping that the law will "fade away" and not be enforced. It won't, the LACS will see to that and bring private prosecutions if the Police and CPS won't act. You need to continue your fight to get the law repealed.


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## fitzaud2 (11 December 2009)

i know what you mean, my mother gave me a note for school once apon a time that said i was missing school the previous day because i was hunting, i could have killed her.  it started world war 3 with the teacher.  i've been hunting since i was 13, i'm now 30. I met my ex out hunting, and have 2 children because of it.  Digging out is against the law now, even though it does still hapen.  I dont agree with it.  I think that if the fox goes to ground, and gets away from the hounds, then it should be left aslone.  Hunting is much better then being snared, shot or poisioned. Those anti fox hunting people wreck my head, do they even know what they are campaining against? Someone shot a fox that ended up on our land at one point, and i followed the trail of blood for a mile, so tell me, is it more humane to have them suffer or die in a split second.


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## fitzaud2 (12 December 2009)

Give them time and they will ban rat hunting.


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## Clodagh (12 December 2009)

Digging out is not illegal, its a bizarre part of the HUnting Act that they didn't want to upset the shoots so allowed digging out to continue.
I'm a long time hunter who is getting old and soft and slowly turning anti. We lamp the foxes now with a rifle and its a damn sight more efficient and humane than fox hunting, although we kill a lot more than the hunt would.


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## cptrayes (12 December 2009)

That's the first time I have heard from a lamper, and it's a very interesting report, particularly as there is nothing else but lamping in my area. It's good to know that you believe it's humane. I dont' think you need to apologise for killing numbers. If my friends lose many more hens in the daytime they'llpay your train fare to come up and sort them out!  Thankyou for risking some negative feedback by posting.


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## Clodagh (13 December 2009)

Lol! We only go lamping when we start losing daytime hens so I sympathise with your friends.


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## combat_claire (14 December 2009)

In that case you will know that there are plenty of legal ways to hunt a fox, just because your pack are hunting fox, does not mean they are necessarily breaking the law. 

I don't read Horse &amp; Hound regularly and I have already apologised for not realising that your pack organise a flesh round so you really don't have to keep banging on about it. 

Current rules have made the practices relating to feeding flesh more stringent, but has by no means banned it. So long as the meat is stored separately from where skinning takes place, filtering of waste water, bunding areas of hard standing, after burners on the incinerator etc etc. This has cost hunts thousands of pounds to comply with so many decided it just wasn't worth the expense.


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## combat_claire (14 December 2009)

Having had first hand experience of going knackering and more recently feeding flesh to our minkhounds I can assure you that the flesh round is still an integral part of many packs. The costs have increased in complying with the Animal By-Products regs but thankfully packs have managed to raise the funds to upgrade facilities or find other ways of complying with the rules.


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## rosie fronfelen (14 December 2009)

our hounds are fed dried feed(hence no meat) they are very fit and going well. we then dont have the dreaded inspections regarding the flesh facilities!! by the way, off topic altogether, did you see the Fitzwilliam on telly, " A Ride Through Middle England." they are near you i believe?


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## Starbucks (14 December 2009)

Oh right I see.

That's good then.


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## combat_claire (14 December 2009)

Our minkhounds love the bakery waste that they get served with the flesh after a hard day on the river. Quite cute seeing them with whipped cream round their chops, but not so nice when they want a hug before bedtime! 

Dammit, I was watching that programme and then switched over to watch Harry Potter DVD! Will try and catch the re-run on H &amp; C TV.  :grin:


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## rosie fronfelen (14 December 2009)

CC, it was the second from last of the series- very good too.


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## combat_claire (14 December 2009)

Seen it, very good. Old footage considering it was supposed to be the world premiere!


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## rosie fronfelen (14 December 2009)

oh bugger these damned repeats!! sorry for giving you old news Claire- lol!


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## combat_claire (14 December 2009)

Nope, I meant the footage was old but I hadn't seen it until today! Their website claims the recent shows are a premiere!


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