# Help for a horse in need! Please...



## Samantha008 (22 August 2011)

Do you know anyone that might be able to help my friends horse? Hes a 14.3hh appaloosax 15years old thats in need of a new home. Hes got cataracts so cant be sold really. At the minute, he can still be ridden, infact- hes great fun to ride! Willl happily hack anywhere and jumps XC etc. Only a few weeks ago he went out to Highclere fun ride and jumped everything. Hes a lovely boy-hence me saying id do this and put up a post on here....But one day his cataracts will make him blind. Hes got them in both eyes- one is worse that the other though. The vet says hes got years and years left...before it makes him blind. Hes got sarcoids too the poor soul. 

My friend has a heart of gold and doesnt want to put him to sleep as he is still perfectly sound and happy and she does ride him out most days. 

But she wants a horse she can do lots of things on and Puffin can only really be hacked and cant be jumped to the degree that she wants to and she cant afford to keep him as a companion.

her other option is a charity- i dont know if anyone knows of one that might be able to help? She doesnt want a penny for him- but she does want to know hes happy and hes not being passed around. 

If anyone knows anyone or any charity please let me know.

Thanks!


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## ABC (22 August 2011)

Where abouts are you? I'm on my phone so I can't see 

I'm interested


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## competitiondiva (22 August 2011)

why not loan him out, then your friend can retain ownership and ultimately control of what happens to him.  There are lots of people looking to loan horses especially ones that can be moved from the owners yard, as long as she keeps regular contact and checks up, this could be an answer for her.


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## *hic* (22 August 2011)

I'll keep my opinion of your friend's behaviour to myself.

As for finding this poor chap a new home, if he's a nice chap with a few years left then ask around local PC trainers, local PC and riding club and try to loan him so that she can make the kindest ultimate decision for him when he needs it.


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## devilwoman (22 August 2011)

pah !!!!!!


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## Samantha008 (22 August 2011)

Were in Reading in Berkshire. Shell trailer him over to the right person though im sure. 

I think she would rather gift him away- as she cant afford him to be sent back. But would probably consider a loan  Ill ask her!

Agreed about her behaviour. Having been there myself and making the decision to keep my horse its a decision i would make differently- however i can understand her reasoning.


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## Queenbee87 (22 August 2011)

jemima_too said:



			I'll keep my opinion of your friend's behaviour to myself.

As for finding this poor chap a new home, if he's a nice chap with a few years left then ask around local PC trainers, local PC and riding club and try to loan him so that she can make the kindest ultimate decision for him when he needs it.
		
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Agree! It saddens me how disposable horses are to some people  Hope for the horse's sake he finds a nice home and is not passed from pillar to post.

If your friend isn't willing to loan him out then the best bet may be to PTS if she wants to trade him in for a newer model as that way she can ensure he has a dignified end and is not passed from pillar to post etc.


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## muddygreymare (22 August 2011)

Why doesnt she loan him out? Then she knows he wont get passed around and has a safe future.


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## devilwoman (22 August 2011)

muddygreymare said:



			Why doesnt she loan him out? Then she knows he wont get passed around and has a safe future.
		
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She clearly isn't too fussed, BUT is worried that if she loans him he'll get sent back !


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## Samantha008 (22 August 2011)

Im sure she will loan him out if no-one is interested in having him! But as a first try- if she can find someone to take ownership of him that would be better for both her and the horse really.

Im texting now about the loan idea...


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## SGCR (22 August 2011)

Aww would he be sutible as a happy hacker/ companion. pm me as i might be able to help  x


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## ABC (22 August 2011)

I'm in Lancashire so I don't know if I'm too far for your friend? 

I'm looking for a companion mainly but possibly a happy hacker for short distances but this isn't nesscessary. Mainly looking for a good tempered horse who can be pampered by me and my younger brother.

PM me if you like, but if not good luck finding him a super home, I'm sure someone will snatch him up


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## competitiondiva (22 August 2011)

I'm sorry but on a whole I don't like this 'gifting' of horses, unless you happen to know the person that is.  I think to loan out is alot more responsible, he's given her alot of love over the years am sure and deserves NOT to be passed around and messed about.  A loan home should be easy enough to find, she can maintain control of where he goes and if by god he has to come back to her one day, then she may have to make a decision to pts then, but better this than he end up in some sales ring, because she didn't take responsibility for his  future at the time. Sorry if I sound harsh there, but don't like this 'gifting' of problem horses!


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## Samantha008 (22 August 2011)

devilwoman said:



			She clearly isn't too fussed, BUT is worried that if she loans him he'll get sent back ! 

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Shes happy to loan him out  I think anyone that has loaned a horse or has one on loan can say though- that loaning a horse isnt always as easy as it seems. My financial circumstances changed and i had to send back my loan horse- and i know it caused an awful mess for his owner and she cant afford to keep him really. 

So i can understand why she doesnt want to loan if theres someone that would like him to be theirs. Its a risk. But- if its the only option she is happy to do that. 

I think its hard to pass judgement on people that you dont know. This girl paid £2500 for this horse a few years ago. She sent him to have surgery on the cataracts that was going to cost in excess of £7000 (his insurance wouldnt cover half of that). She really has tried everything she can and has realised he needs a quieter home with a quieter life. 

So please kepp your opinions on my friend to yourselves. You have no idea of the heartache she has been through with this horse and how hard she has tried. Shes already got one horse out on loan and an old pony companion and is stretched to the limit. 

She doesnt want to advertise on classifieds as any person could come and collect him but at least on here people have a history you can look through ans chances are they are a bit less of a risk than anyone of the street!!!


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## cbmcts (22 August 2011)

I don't mean to be rude about your friend but if she's not prepared to fund a horse with (potentially very expensive and uninsurable) medical problems why does she think anyone else will?

It's one thing to loan out a horse like this but to give him away? It's insane IMO. I can understand that she wants to progress but not at the expense of the horse she has now... and giving him away leaves him with no safety net. No offence to anyone who has offered him a home here but in the past, there was a scammer on here asking for free or cheap horses to sell on nor is unheard of in the wider equine world.

Time for your friend to wake up and smell the coffee I think - retirement/light hack/loving homes are hard to come by for any horse let alone one with serious problems so IMO she has two sensible choices, either PTS or grow a pair and make the best of what she has until she can afford a second horse. It's tough being a caring adult sometimes.


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## ladyt25 (22 August 2011)

I'm hope she manages to find him a decent home but it really winds me up when people can't take responsibility for their horses when something goes wrong or they are no longer able to do the job they were bought for. Sorry, that is what happens with horses and that is what you NEED to factor in when you get one. What happens if the next horse your friend gets develops a problem and maybe they can no longer be ridden either? Will they try palm that one off too?

Sorry, i just don't agree with it at all. To me it's like having a dog and, when my dog develops arthritis and can no longer accompany me for runs etc I wouldn't then think about giving him/her away so i can get myself a younger model!!!


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## Samantha008 (22 August 2011)

Please read the thread...

He will be sent to a charity or loaned before he is "fobbed off" to just anyone.

Ohhh i love this forum sometimes


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## cbmcts (22 August 2011)

Samantha008 said:



			Shes happy to loan him out  I think anyone that has loaned a horse or has one on loan can say though- that loaning a horse isnt always as easy as it seems. My financial circumstances changed and i had to send back my loan horse- and i know it caused an awful mess for his owner and she cant afford to keep him really. 

So i can understand why she doesnt want to loan if theres someone that would like him to be theirs. Its a risk. But- if its the only option she is happy to do that. 

I think its hard to pass judgement on people that you dont know. This girl paid £2500 for this horse a few years ago. She sent him to have surgery on the cataracts that was going to cost in excess of £7000 (his insurance wouldnt cover half of that). She really has tried everything she can and has realised he needs a quieter home with a quieter life. 

So please kepp your opinions on my friend to yourselves. You have no idea of the heartache she has been through with this horse and how hard she has tried. Shes already got one horse out on loan and an old pony companion and is stretched to the limit. 

She doesnt want to advertise on classifieds as any person could come and collect him but at least on here people have a history you can look through ans chances are they are a bit less of a risk than anyone of the street!!!
		
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Like I said I didn't mean to be rude but you have to be realistic at the same time. I do know how hard it is - I have 2 retirees, one of whom I only had 2 years before he went lame and after a full year of treatment had to be retired.

Yes, it ***** but that's animals for you and I believe that once you bring them home they are your responsibility when they break...nobody elses.

Glad to hear he'll be loaned if need be but your post did say she didn't want to do that in case he came back and sorry but it is very unlikely a charity would have space in the current climate


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## Dancing Queen (22 August 2011)

PM ABC! She seems like a lovely lady who has quite openly said she wants a companion - seems perfect.


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## The Fuzzy Furry (22 August 2011)

Is he sane & sensible enough for RDA?
Has she tried her local groups?


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## Samantha008 (22 August 2011)

have done!!


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## Samantha008 (22 August 2011)

He is safe and sensible but hes not a plod...im not sure how suitable hed be for RDA. I wouldnt say hes exactly a complete novice ride :/


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## darkhorse123 (22 August 2011)

ladyt25 said:



			I'm hope she manages to find him a decent home but it really winds me up when people can't take responsibility for their horses when something goes wrong or they are no longer able to do the job they were bought for. Sorry, that is what happens with horses and that is what you NEED to factor in when you get one. What happens if the next horse your friend gets develops a problem and maybe they can no longer be ridden either? Will they try palm that one off too?

Sorry, i just don't agree with it at all. To me it's like having a dog and, when my dog develops arthritis and can no longer accompany me for runs etc I wouldn't then think about giving him/her away so i can get myself a younger model!!!
		
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this - plus please dont rely on charities - one example - google south wales amimal rescue the truth. 
Im not sayng all "rescues"are bad but some are despicable - 
but then i believe  "dogs are for life not just for christmas" - i also believe the same applies to our equestrian friends - very sad post  - how can she pass on a poorly horse who she once loved and presumably he still does her????


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## babymare (22 August 2011)

aged 13 my mare is going blind and im living on borrowed time. my daughter still rides her in school when bright day and people go WOW! she trusts emma and goes amazing  will i pass her off - nope sorry she will be PTS prob before need to so her last days are happy in the place she loves just brought in from herd on a sunny days and sweet dreams . where will a half blind horse with sacroids end up - ok maybe best intentions hun but charities are bulging so maybe your friend needs to say ok little one time to say sweet dreams - but only my thoughts  hugs to horsey xxx


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## ABC (22 August 2011)

Dancing Queen said:



			PM ABC! She seems like a lovely lady who has quite openly said she wants a companion - seems perfect.
		
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Awh thankyou!


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## Samantha008 (22 August 2011)




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## devilwoman (22 August 2011)

Seems like he has given her many happy times, shame she can't do the same for him now he's not quite up to the job she wants him to do, still each to their own, can only hope he gets a decent home that will give him a lifelong home.

P.S. the charities are full to busting point of abused/neglected horses, they really are not there for the likes of your friend who cast off unwanted/sick horses.


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## ABC (22 August 2011)

Samantha - I can't reply to your PM on my phone but I'll reply asap. I'm still interested 

Thanks!


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## devilwoman (22 August 2011)

ABC said:



			Samantha - I can't reply to your PM on my phone but I'll reply asap. I'm still interested 

Thanks! 

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Lucky horsey


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## babymare (22 August 2011)

agree devil so agree - give their all but then . . . . ..  . . .


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## *hic* (22 August 2011)

Samantha008 said:



			Please read the thread...

He will be sent to a charity or loaned before he is "fobbed off" to just anyone.

Ohhh i love this forum sometimes 

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Well I was going to keep quiet but this is one of the things that really gets on my wick, she can't be bothered to keep paying for him so she will send him to a charity and expect him to be paid for out of other people's donations, taking resources away from animals that are truly in need, just because she wants a newer model.

Terrific


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## misst (22 August 2011)

devilwoman said:



			Seems like he has given her many happy times, shame she can't do the same for him now he's not quite up to the job she wants him to do, still each to their own, can only hope he gets a decent home that will give him a lifelong home.

P.S. the charities are full to busting point of abused/neglected horses, they really are not there for the likes of your friend who cast off unwanted/sick horses.
		
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^^^This 

How sad, I suppose she is too cowardly to PTS


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## ABC (22 August 2011)

In fairness guys this lad has years ahead of him as a hacker or even low level competition. Surely he deserves the chance of a quieter life?

I understand why you think what you think but maybe the owner is just trying to give her horse a chance to live a calmer, more suitable life?


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## Dancing Queen (22 August 2011)

ABC said:



			In fairness guys this lad has years ahead of him as a hacker or even low level competition. Surely he deserves the chance of a quieter life?

I understand why you think what you think but maybe the owner is just trying to give her horse a chance to live a calmer, more suitable life?
		
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^^^^ this is a sensible response!


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## Samantha008 (22 August 2011)

You reall y think the horse in the above photos needs to be pts??? They were taken a few weeks ago!! 

She cant sell him- why not let someone else enjoy him? He deserves it. I understand what youre all saying, but it is not correct in this case.


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## misst (22 August 2011)

NO I don't think he needs to be PTS but I think if the owner does not want him he deserves security in his later years and I would not like to think of a horse going blind in changing circumstances. If he were mine I would not PTS I would give him the retirement he deserves even I had to go without the horse I wanted


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## noodle_ (22 August 2011)

Samantha008 said:



			You reall y think the horse in the above photos needs to be pts??? They were taken a few weeks ago!! 

She cant sell him- why not let someone else enjoy him? He deserves it. I understand what youre all saying, but it is not correct in this case.
		
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because people take responsibility for the horses till the end of their days - or if sellable - in a good condition/good prospects

I would never sell my horse with something like cataratcs /navicular etc  - if i couldnt afford to keep a horse with those conditions etc i would pts.

Yes he may have many years left - he may have a few months left.... people comment on the information given.


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## Samantha008 (22 August 2011)

Hes got years and a vet report to prove. I am many things but not a liar.


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## Syrah (22 August 2011)

The horse doesn't "need" to be PTS, he needs to have an owner who won't discard him when he becomes surplus to requirements and he obviously hasn't got that!

OP you've got to have expected the replies that have been posted.  Your friend has had years of service from this horse and now he can't fulfill her wants through no fault of his own, she's getting rid.  No love lost there


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## ABC (22 August 2011)

In my eyes the owner is being responsible.

She can't keep him for whatever reason, she's doing her best to find him a suitable home.

If she can't find him a decent home then obviously she will have to think harder but I do think the horse deserves a chance.

The horse could be on every website going, without mention of his condition, but he's not. 

Just my opinion, I think the owner is doing the best she can, and the fact she isn't advertising him proves a lot IMO


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## cptrayes (22 August 2011)

The bitchiness of some of these replies defies belief. The owner is trying to find the best compromise that she can between the fact that she is entitled to live life to the full and wanting to do the best for her horse when she can only afford to keep one.

I wonder how many of you are very young and do not realise that life is different when you are older and you see your chance of achieving something with your riding disappearing with each passing year as you lose your physical abilities.

Horses are not cats and they are not dogs. This horse is not in the house with her, he's in livery. He doesn't think she loves him, and he likes the people he sees around most and who give him his feed. He may like her, but he'll probably have no trouble at all liking  someone else who thinks he's the bees knees. Provided she is careful who he goes to, there is no moral problem at all in finding him a new home. Keeping a horse costing thousands of pounds a year in a livery yard and taking hours a week to manage in no way compares to keeping an old cat or dog for a couple of hundred at home. 

Give the woman a break. If you can't help her find a good home for this horse for crying out loud please stop preaching at her. Not everyone agrees with you that we owe every horse we buy a home for life. You are not saints, though many of you write as if you think you are. Your horses are no happier than ours and they may even be less happy. Why would a horse be happier being less than its owner needs, when it can live with someone for whom it is the bee's knees? Why do so many people think that no-one can possibly look after their horse as well as they can?

OP I hope your friend finds the right home for her horse and the right horse for what she needs.





ps noodle you would have a perfectly healthy horse with slightly fuzzy eyesight put to sleep just because you could not afford to keep him? REALLY?????  And you think somehow that makes you a better owner than the poster's friend?


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## ABC (22 August 2011)

Sorry, I don't think my previous post makes a lot of sense but hopefully you'll be able to figure it out


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## misst (22 August 2011)

Samantha008 said:



			Hes got years and a vet report to prove. I am many things but not a liar.
		
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I do not think you are a liar but horses deserve security in their retirement and should not be sold on when they start to fail even if they have years left. A condition like this will only get worse and blind horses need a constant and familiar environment. 
The point people are trying to make is that it is rather harsh to sell something because it is not as good as it used to be. Your friend may well want a more competitive horse - but surely she owes her present horse a comfortable retirement. If she is unwilling to give this why should she expect anyone else to?? Especially a charity. 
I honestly believe if she feels she cannot keep him then she owes him a safe outcome and if that is PTS then so be it. Horses do not fear PTS they have no concept of a future - but they can be afraid and in pain on a daily basis - that is much worse.


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## devilwoman (22 August 2011)

I can't believe a vet can certify that this horse has "years" of service left in him, my nan had catteracts and they progressed very quickly, yet my mum had them and they progressed slowly, its utter trash, she wants rid so she can get a better/newer model, if you post this kind of thing on here then you should expect critisism.


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## *hic* (22 August 2011)

ABC said:



			Just my opinion, I think the owner is doing the best she can, and the fact she isn't advertising him proves a lot IMO 

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Actually she IS advertising him - on here!  She has got a prospective home lined up already, fee free!


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## ABC (22 August 2011)

Samantha isn't the owner, she's a friend so the actual owner hasn't put an advert up.

Surely posting on a horse forum with all the details is better than posting an advert on preloved or something? 

I do see what you mean though


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## Dancing Queen (22 August 2011)

jemima_too said:



			Actually she IS advertising him - on here!  She has got a prospective home lined up already, fee free!
		
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NO SHE is not advertising, but a friend is asking and putting feelers out - this is NOT advertising.


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## *hic* (22 August 2011)

She (the owner) is definitely advertising the horse, she has asked a friend to put an advert on here, no different to asking a friend to stick an ad up in a tack shop.

She (the OP) is definitely advertising the horse and acting as agent for the owner.


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## BSJAlove (22 August 2011)

if she cant afford to have a horse sitting in a field with potential vets bills in the future, maybe loaning him out is the best option as he clearly has more to give someone! i would be doing the same! then when he cant do it anymore with his loaner, then id have him back and PTS. best outcome for both. this forum is a joke sometimes. people are so quick to judge and jump on a band wagon.


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## charlie76 (22 August 2011)

Sam would he be any good for the riding school? We have one or two with cataracts and the vet is fine with it in the inspection as long as we monitor them.x


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## Dancing Queen (22 August 2011)

jemima_too said:



			She (the owner) is definitely advertising the horse, she has asked a friend to put an advert on here, no different to asking a friend to stick an ad up in a tack shop.

She (the OP) is definitely advertising the horse and acting as agent for the owner.
		
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not really - but you know what, i cant be bothered to correct you anymore - try being thankful that someone is trying to sort out a home for him.


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## Samantha008 (22 August 2011)

charlie76 said:



			Sam would he be any good for the riding school? We have one or two with cataracts and the vet is fine with it in the inspection as long as we monitor them.x
		
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Very likely. Ill ask her  Hes a lovely horse and could do a mean dressage test  

Thanks!


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## *hic* (22 August 2011)

Dancing Queen said:



			not really - but you know what, i cant be bothered to correct you anymore - try being thankful that someone is trying to sort out a home for him.
		
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You don't need to correct me, I'm not wrong

He's been advertised, the advertising has worked with several offers of homes made, at no cost to the advertisers.


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## devilwoman (22 August 2011)

Hopefully the best thing to come out of this is that the horse is going to get a good home, and I agree with jemima OP has done the owner proud with the free advertising.


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## charlie76 (22 August 2011)

Have pm 'd You


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## competitiondiva (22 August 2011)

oh ............ advertising/not advertising, no money is changing hands so does it matter?? Now if it were for sale for a monetary value then maybe there'd be something to argue about!!

OP please don't place strain on charities/rescues that are already heaving by asking one to take this horse, if they took this one, the flood gates would open having everyone wanting to pass on their old or injured horses!!  

I'm not against a new suitable home being sought, in life things change, fact! My only plea would be that as the horse is not healthy (i.e a normal sale) I would ask not to 'gift' a horse to someone unknown to you.  Keep control of the horse by retaining ownership, by all means look at working livery at riding schools or colleges, loan, etc, but keep hold of his future.  Then when he gets to a point where he can't continue a working life and if there is no where to retire to, she can have him pts with him never ending up suffering.


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## Squeak (23 August 2011)

ABC said:



			In fairness guys this lad has years ahead of him as a hacker or even low level competition. Surely he deserves the chance of a quieter life?

I understand why you think what you think but maybe the owner is just trying to give her horse a chance to live a calmer, more suitable life?
		
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Totally agree with this.  It is unrealistic to think that the owner should HAVE to keep the horse for the rest of its life and it sounds like this horse could have years of pleasure to give someone else so would be a shame and waste to pts.


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## Box_Of_Frogs (23 August 2011)

Sorry if this has already been said but I can't read on to the end of the next 3 pages because I'm so cross. OP, hear what people are saying! For crying out loud, the horse has given your friend many years of fun and loyal service. Now he's got inoperable (due to cost) cataracts and sarcoids. What on earth does your friend think will happen when whatever home she finds for him realise that he's just about blind? They'll have exactly the same heartache that your friend has only they won't have the year's of partnership invested in him so may very well try to move him on again. And how many sighted years does he have left? If you think a reputable charity would take someone else's cast off then you're mistaken and nor would the RDA. As another poster has written tell your friend to do right by this horse and either pts with compassion and dignity or grow some and deal with it. Her horse runs the very real risk of ending up at a meat market. Great end for him eh?


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## CAYLA (23 August 2011)

Whilst I would never part with an animal I owned, I can see the point in those that compete and cannot keep horses they cannot ride for whatever reason (I personally could not) but as pointed out the are expensive animals to keep.

However the whole "he will not be palmed off" or words to that effect made me laugh, esp as the next sentance was " he will go to a charity" is that not the worst form of "palming off" ? do folk/OP think these charities are made of money and just sat awaiting that call for the next piss poor excuse of a hand in what a shameful way to think.

Otherwise I hope ABC can offer a great home for this horse and I would hope the owner would keep the insurance policy open for the new owner to take the offer of an operation if they feel they could/would like to and want to pay the extra funds or any further complications tha comefrom this condition. (because a new insurance cannot be taken now that would include this condition and im positive they wont accept a complete name change on the exisiting policy.........SO PLEASE GIVE THIS OPTION, its as easy as setting up a direct debit via new owner. It would be a shame if someone could give the operation and the chance is taken away. (is is the least the current owner could do before passing him off)!


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## Puppy (23 August 2011)

Samantha008 said:



			My friend has a heart of gold and doesnt want to put him to sleep as he is still perfectly sound and happy and she does ride him out most days. 

But she wants a horse she can do lots of things on and Puffin can only really be hacked and cant be jumped to the degree that she wants to and she cant afford to keep him as a companion.

her other option is a charity
		
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This attitude makes me too angry for words. 

I presume it's a typo and you in fact meant that your friend has a "heart of stone"


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## smellsofhorse (23 August 2011)

So much to say about this.
trith is we dont know all the facts.

What i do read though it that the owner would happily drop him off or say to someone free to collector.
She should be saying ( if she cared as much as she should) 
To right home only, home to be inspected, commited, reliable home only.

I hope he finds a great home with an owner that cares as much as the horse deserves.


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## charlie76 (23 August 2011)

Am I the only one who is a Bit shocked at some of the replies here? For one, horses can go for years with cataracts that never affect them,we have three older horses that Have them, They were picked up by the vet on our annual inspection.  Vet was more than happy to let them continue their working life in the school as long as we are aware and monitor and unusual behaviour which might be the result of the cataracts.  We had a livery that was diagnoised at seven, he went on until he was 25 doing all activities until he was put down for some thing unrelated.  
The owner is not hiding the issue from potential loaners/owners so where is the problem? Better than some would do, some some would have just advertised the horse at a cheap price in the hope of no vetting and not mention the issue. 
There is every chance,  as op stated the vet said, that this horse may had a full working life ahead of him yet there seems to be the theme to give him the death sentance! IME cataracts are easy to manage, unlike recurrent uveitis.


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## charlie76 (23 August 2011)

I think that people are maybe reacting To the fact that the owner wants To move him on as he is no longer suitable for her ambitions,  hard I know, but lets face it, she isn't the first person to do this! If the horse has a useful working life in another home and the owner is honest what's the problem?


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## burtie (23 August 2011)

charlie76 said:



			I think that people are maybe reacting To the fact that the owner wants To move him on as he is no longer suitable for her ambitions,  hard I know, but lets face it, she isn't the first person to do this! If the horse has a useful working life in another home and the owner is honest what's the problem?
		
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Because a large number of horses given away get sold on at some point later without their 'issues' being declared to the new unsuspecting owner. It is a very common scam and one the easiest ways to make money from horses.


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## Ranyhyn (23 August 2011)

Well lets hope Puffin goes to ABC and gets the happy pootling round he deserves.  But I tell you one thing I wouldn't be selling him, I'd be long term loaning him on the proviso that if he should ever need to come back - a good notice period is offered, in order for OP's friend to get her **** in order.
Why?  because circumstances DO change - and that horse does not need to be passed from pillar to post.  If god forbid, ABC's fortunes change - then I'd want that horse to come back to me, whatever the cost - even if it was only to come home to be pts.
Better the surity (sp) of death than the faintest possibility of god knows where he'd end up or in what situation.


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## charlie76 (23 August 2011)

How do you know how the owner will set up the situation? We have many horses come to us on a very similar basis,  talented horses that still have a working life but have niggles that need to be managed. When we take this horses we buy them for a nominal sum and the previous owner has a signed reciept to say that should we no longer want the horse we offer them the horse back for what we paid for it or should the horse deteriorate we have permission to put the horse down

One such horse is one from this website and I bet none of You would have suggested putting him down!

There was no suggestion that that the o.p friend would not vet homes first and having spoken To the op off the forum I can assure you that the owner of this horse could not be more fussy or concerned about where the horse goes. She is not about to pass it to any old person to get rid of it! 

Same old jumping to conclusions


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## Ranyhyn (23 August 2011)

Sorry Charlie how do I know the owner will set up what situation?  I'm just saying that like with your example I'd tie that horse up so tightly that his future would be as sure as though he were with me..


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## PeterNatt (23 August 2011)

Before your friend does anything your friend should have the horse Freezemarked on it's shoulder, microchipped and registered on the NED-online web site to ensure that if it ever goes missing it can be identified.


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## touchstone (23 August 2011)

Quote:-     "Shes already got one horse out on loan and an old pony companion and is stretched to the limit."

If that is the case then surely it is irresponible to be getting another just to further her ambitions?   What happens if the new horse needs expensive treatment too?   I'm sorry but she really needs to take care of her own responsibilities instead of adding to them and hoping others will pick up the pieces, as for expecting charities to take on your discarded horses, words fail me.


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## Dancing Queen (23 August 2011)

I hope that the horse finds a good home for the remainder of his days.


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## Samantha008 (23 August 2011)

Im sure he will  She wont let him go to anyone. His homes will be vetted. She will have a contract signed (if he goes out on loan) and im more than sure shed stay in contact with the owners.


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## BBH (23 August 2011)

This forum is so bloomin fickle.

I've seen posts exactly the same on here before and the OP has been congratulated on making a sensible decision because people can't be expected to keep a horse they've outgrown when their aspirations are greater than what the horse can achieve. And his health is not the difference as I remember one that was intermittently lame.

As for the OP she sounds like a sensible person who is trying to find someone who maybe interested in taking on a horse needing a quieter life. This happens all the time irrespective of age and health. As long as the horse's wellbeing  is fully monitored with who ever he goes to I can't see a problem.

I can't understand why people would PTS  a healthy horse rather than let him go to someone else, not all horse people are mad wicked demons looking for something to abuse 
Good luck.


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## ABC (23 August 2011)

Samantha - I'm on my phone, but I'll reply your PM asap! Sorry


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## charlie76 (23 August 2011)

BBH could not agree more! As stated before,  I have a number of horses in the school from this forum taken under very similar circumstances.  All of the horses are amazing and teach people so much. Just because the person who has asked advice isn't one of the hho 'favourites' everyone has jumped to the conclusion that They must be a heartless person!


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## mulledwhine (23 August 2011)

How many people sell ponies, sadly out grown, or sell horses because they need some thing more, because they want to advance their riding?

I understand he has got problems, but ATM is still a usefull prospect for some one just wanting to do happy hacking.


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## Ranyhyn (23 August 2011)

I don't know Daidydo, but I think the future is a little more certain for a healthy riding horse, than one who is deteriorating.  All most people are saying is be very cautious - which I don't think is a slight on the owner, just people who are only too aware of how easy it is for handicapped horses to end up making the long journey overseas as dinner..etc etc


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## Rueysmum (23 August 2011)

Sorry, but if she's "got a heart of gold" then she'd keep him and forgo buying a new one until he pops his clogs.


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## cptrayes (23 August 2011)

BoolavogueDC said:



			Sorry Charlie how do I know the owner will set up what situation?  I'm just saying that like with your example I'd tie that horse up so tightly that his future would be as sure as though he were with me..
		
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It's a lovely idea but it's impossible.

Your loan horse goes missing on loan - where do you find it?

You sell with a contract but the horse is being mistreated. You have no right to recover the horse because of your perception of "mistreatment", it belongs to someone else. You can report it to the RSPCA but there is no guarantee that anyone will act. If you go and fetch it you are guilty of theft and will end in a criminal court yourself. And don't think the Magistrates will approve, things can get a very different slant put on them in Courtrooms with good lawyers.

You sell with a contract and the new owner breaks the contract term. (This happened to me - she leased the horse to someone else.) If the new owner will not voluntarily give it up, you have to go to law to recover it. Have you got the money to do that, and if you have, by the time that process is complete the horse will have disappeared. 



Get off this owners back people! Not all of us think horses are pets who can't possibly be looked after by someone else as well as we can. After a couple of weeks, this horse isn't going to care two hoots if it goes to a new person who loves it and feeds it well.  And some of us actually, horror of horrors, believe that it is a person's right to maximise their own potential, provided they do others no harm. I've never read such a load of sactimonious rubbish as on this thread. I hope you all have the same standards for women who chuck out the father of their children and get another one because they aren't fulfilled in their marriage?


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## charlie76 (23 August 2011)

This is what it says about catarachts on horse and hound:
Horses with small cataracts show no clinical signs. If one is found, it is sensible to have it rechecked six months to a year later to ensure it has not progressed. Many owners do not bother because treatment is not an option, but I recommend having the eye checked to ensure that the horse is still safe to ride.

Where cataracts are causing a progressive loss of sight, the signs can include:

    * stumbling

    * walking into objects

    * an abnormal number of facial injuries

    * an alteration in head carriage

    * sudden shying

    * increased anxiety and jumpiness

The majority do not progress and are unlikely to affect vision, although some cataracts can be assessed only by repeated examination of the eyes on several occasions over a lengthy period of time. 


Please note the last paragraph, as the OP said, this was also confirmed by the vet. The horse many have YEARS of normal work.

It is also a well known fact that Appalossas are prone to them. I bet there are many appalossas working and leading a normal life with cataracts and because the owner has never needed to vet they are undetected and the horse is living a normal life!


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## Ranyhyn (23 August 2011)

Hasn't Charlie76 just proved it is possible?  Of course you are dealing also with peoples honesty and good nature but isn't that the best thing you can do - at least try?

I don't disagree the OP's friend deserves to be happy and fulfill her dreams but she also ultimately has a responsibility to try her hardest to secure his future as best she can.  I know it might be a bit pie in the sky to try and do so - but just the action of doing so shows a real dedication to a horse and is something that hopefully buyers/loaners will respond to in kind.


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## charlie76 (23 August 2011)

Rueysmum said:



			Sorry, but if she's "got a heart of gold" then she'd keep him and forgo buying a new one until he pops his clogs.
		
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I must be a heartless cow then because if I had a horse that was unable to do the job I wanted it to but it was suitable for someone else I would move said horse on, not sure what everyone elses circumstances are but I am not in a position to 'collect' horses that I cannot use for the job I want them for! If anyone on here is in a postion to maintain a sanctury for all of the horses in their life that are not suitable then good for you and I wish I had your money and time!

Ridiculous comment!

Its not like she is handing him over to some dodgy dealer just to get rid!!!!


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## ameeyal (23 August 2011)

What a nasty lot of replys, the op whats a home for this horse, NOT to slag the owner of this horse off, If you can not help with homing this horse or have suggestions, THEN DONT REPLY, as its not getting this horse rehomed.


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## Ranyhyn (23 August 2011)

Ameeyal, be realistic, people are just talking about the situation - as is liable to happen on an open forum.  I agree about not slagging off the owner as she isn't here to explain, herself, but as for the thread going off on a tangent and people talking in general - I think that's good.

The real thing to do to get the horse a home is to advertise it - the forum is not for advertising, hence the conversations going around NOT about rehoming the horse.


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## charlie76 (23 August 2011)

I really can't get my head round why people are obsessed with the fact that a horse having a cataracht is the end of its working life, its simply not the case:
Read:
http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/care/402/67330.html


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## Lady La La (23 August 2011)

cptrayes said:



			It's a lovely idea but it's impossible.

Your loan horse goes missing on loan - where do you find it?

You sell with a contract but the horse is being mistreated. You have no right to recover the horse because of your perception of "mistreatment", it belongs to someone else. You can report it to the RSPCA but there is no guarantee that anyone will act. If you go and fetch it you are guilty of theft and will end in a criminal court yourself. And don't think the Magistrates will approve, things can get a very different slant put on them in Courtrooms with good lawyers.

You sell with a contract and the new owner breaks the contract term. (This happened to me - she leased the horse to someone else.) If the new owner will not voluntarily give it up, you have to go to law to recover it. Have you got the money to do that, and if you have, by the time that process is complete the horse will have disappeared. 



Get off this owners back people! Not all of us think horses are pets who can't possibly be looked after by someone else as well as we can. After a couple of weeks, this horse isn't going to care two hoots if it goes to a new person who loves it and feeds it well.  And some of us actually, horror of horrors, believe that it is a person's right to maximise their own potential, provided they do others no harm. I've never read such a load of sactimonious rubbish as on this thread. I hope you all have the same standards for women who chuck out the father of their children and get another one because they aren't fulfilled in their marriage?
		
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Ahh Cptrayes, I'm sure there's a post somewhere of you revelling in the fact that the minute your horses are no longer 100% fit for purpose you stick a bullet in their heads... You don't keep any of your horses into retirement, do you?

...Whilst I'm all for securing a horses future (be it bullet, loan etc) I dont throw my horses out as soon as something goes bad. I keep lame horses until they are sound, I keep old horses until they dont want to be kept any more - where ever possible.
I dont expect every horse owner to be the same, I understand that peoples selfish 'needs' often come before that of their horses. I dont like it, but I understand it - The problem lies witht he fact that the owner of the horse in question was prepared to dump it on a charity/give it away FOC to pretty much anyone on a forum who asks for it...

The horse has gone wrong - do the right thing and take responsibility for it - in this instance as it can continue to live a useful and healthy life, (for me)  that would involve loaning him out locally to someone that she can keep an eye on, thus being able to ensure he's receiving the correct care and retaining the right to make any of those nasty decisions that may be required later in his life, when he becomes less useful...


... She could of course sell him - asking a fee would almost certainly put off most people with less than admirable motives, as it were. Good luck getting someone to pay anything for a (probably) uninsurable horse with potential vets bills though.....


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## Wagtail (23 August 2011)

BBH said:



			This forum is so bloomin fickle.

I've seen posts exactly the same on here before and the OP has been congratulated on making a sensible decision because people can't be expected to keep a horse they've outgrown when their aspirations are greater than what the horse can achieve. And his health is not the difference as I remember one that was intermittently lame.

As for the OP she sounds like a sensible person who is trying to find someone who maybe interested in taking on a horse needing a quieter life. This happens all the time irrespective of age and health. As long as the horse's wellbeing  is fully monitored with who ever he goes to I can't see a problem.

I can't understand why people would PTS  a healthy horse rather than let him go to someone else, not all horse people are mad wicked demons looking for something to abuse 
Good luck.
		
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^^^Totally agree.

The worst thing she could do IMO is PTS. Why are people on here so happy for horses to be PTS at the drop of a hat?  It seems that it is viewed as the brave and honourable thing to do regardless of whether the horse is capable of having a happy life as a hacker or companion etc. Of course, if the animal is suffering it should be PTS, but not just because it can no longer do the things an owner wants of it.

TBH though, I think that this owner should persevere with this pony until she can afford to have another. However, in the meantime, if someone comes along who can offer the pony a trusted and loving home, then there is nothing wrong in gifting him IMO. I have been gifted two medically unsound horses in the past and spent £000's putting them right. Not all gifties are not to be trusted. But you do have to be careful.


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## annaellie (23 August 2011)

In an ideal world we would all be able to keep the horses till the end of there days, at least owner is being honest it would be very easy to sell on and not declare as not everyone will have a vetting


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## soulfull (23 August 2011)

cptrayes said:



			The bitchiness of some of these replies defies belief. The owner is trying to find the best compromise that she can between the fact that she is entitled to live life to the full and wanting to do the best for her horse when she can only afford to keep one.

I wonder how many of you are very young and do not realise that life is different when you are older and you see your chance of achieving something with your riding disappearing with each passing year as you lose your physical abilities.

Horses are not cats and they are not dogs. This horse is not in the house with her, he's in livery. He doesn't think she loves him, and he likes the people he sees around most and who give him his feed. He may like her, but he'll probably have no trouble at all liking  someone else who thinks he's the bees knees. Provided she is careful who he goes to, there is no moral problem at all in finding him a new home. Keeping a horse costing thousands of pounds a year in a livery yard and taking hours a week to manage in no way compares to keeping an old cat or dog for a couple of hundred at home. 

Give the woman a break. If you can't help her find a good home for this horse for crying out loud please stop preaching at her. Not everyone agrees with you that we owe every horse we buy a home for life. You are not saints, though many of you write as if you think you are. Your horses are no happier than ours and they may even be less happy. Why would a horse be happier being less than its owner needs, when it can live with someone for whom it is the bee's knees? Why do so many people think that no-one can possibly look after their horse as well as they can?

OP I hope your friend finds the right home for her horse and the right horse for what she needs.





ps noodle you would have a perfectly healthy horse with slightly fuzzy eyesight put to sleep just because you could not afford to keep him? REALLY?????  And you think somehow that makes you a better owner than the poster's friend?
		
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Echo this.  Those of you that are happy to sacrifice your own happiness for that of keeping a horse no matter what, are welcome too.  Personally I would do what OP is doing.


BSJAlove said:



			if she cant afford to have a horse sitting in a field with potential vets bills in the future, maybe loaning him out is the best option as he clearly has more to give someone! i would be doing the same! then when he cant do it anymore with his loaner, then id have him back and PTS. best outcome for both. this forum is a joke sometimes. people are so quick to judge and jump on a band wagon.
		
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This ^^^^



burtie said:



			Because a large number of horses given away get sold on at some point later without their 'issues' being declared to the new unsuspecting owner. It is a very common scam and one the easiest ways to make money from horses.
		
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In that case find these people and name and shame.  Don't blame people like OP for other peoples actions!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!




charlie76 said:



			. Just because the person who has asked advice isn't one of the hho 'favourites' everyone has jumped to the conclusion that They must be a heartless person!
		
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Totally agree with this ^^^^

As for sending to a charity   I think the OP was just looking at the idea that a charity could find him a new home and they would monitor said home much better than an individual could!!  he would not be one of those horse that put major strain on resources.  Maybe she could ask them if they know of suitable homes as they used to have people waiting for horses that can be ridden rather than just companions.


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## charlie76 (23 August 2011)

Then you are lucky to be in the situation to be able to afford the time and the money to look after endless horses forever, not everyone is in that situation.
Again, I repeat, she is NOT simply getiing rid of him to any old tom, dick or dealer! She is looking for someone to take on the horse to get some enjoyment out of him. This horse is NOT a write off, he has a lot to offer some one. Why should a horse that has still got a working life be chucked out in the field!
The vet said he is fine and may well be fine for many years to come. 
Read the article I have posted and read the OP post. The horse did a xc ride last week! As far as I am aware he did not crash into anything that he couldn't see! He in NOT blind, he is NOT useless, he does NOT need to be retired!


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## Lady La La (23 August 2011)

charlie76 said:



			Then you are lucky to be in the situation to be able to afford the time and the money to look after endless horses forever, not everyone is in that situation..
		
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... She does have the money, she is just chosing to spend it on something 'better' as the horse in question can no longer do for her that which she requires.

...The rest of your statement, I agreee with. The horse can prove useful to someone, and can continue to live a decent standard of life. I certainly dont think it should be put down. I just find it hard to believe there are genuine people in the world prepared to take on a potentially large amount of vets fees just for a horse to hack lightly.. 
I'm cynical, I dont mind admitting that, but in order to do the best by the horse, if it were mine - I'd be looking to loan it locally, so that I could keep an eye and take him back if/when needed.
As I said, she could try and sell it but.... it's unlikely anyone would buy it.


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## Lady La La (23 August 2011)

soulfull said:



			In that case find these people and name and shame.  Don't blame people like OP for other peoples actions!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
		
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You must realise that's not how the world works, right?

I dont believe anybody is blaming the OP for 'other peoples actions' but the fact still remains that there are some a*s*holes in this world who will do all they can for a quick buck. Its up to you, me, everybody on this earth who owns an animal to do the very best for it when it leaves our care, and that includes trying to protect it from a*s*holes.

'naming and shaming' every idiot on this earth devoid of morals would be impossible - Dont put your horse in a situation where these people can get hold of it. Simples.


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## *hic* (23 August 2011)

There are cases on this forum IIRC where someone has "taken pity" on a horse advertised in just this way and then said horse has been sold on as having no problems.

I'm not saying that any of the people who have offered homes are likely to do this but right back at the beginning of the post I advised looking locally and gave suggestions for loaning by word of mouth to known individuals, not names on a forum, so that she could attempt to retain control of his life.


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## hayinamanger (23 August 2011)

OP I understand that you are trying to help Puffin by finding him a home, he looks a nice boy.  You are likely to get a few offers of homes, choose wisely.

Make sure the potential new owners are fully aware of the implications and responsibilities of taking on a horse with a degenerative eye condition.  A report from the vet who last examined him would be useful.

He will need monitoring very closely, a vet will show you how to test his vision.

My biggest fear is that, as his sight deteriorates, he will be left in a field and, when he loses his sight completely, he will get himself into real trouble and potentially die in extremis.

I'm always saying this, but there are far worse fates for a horse than PTS


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## Lady La La (23 August 2011)

jemima_too said:



			There are cases on this forum IIRC where someone has "taken pity" on a horse advertised in just this way and then said horse has been sold on as having no problems.

I'm not saying that any of the people who have offered homes are likely to do this but right back at the beginning of the post I advised looking locally and gave suggestions for loaning by word of mouth to known individuals, not names on a forum, so that she could attempt to retain control of his life.
		
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Exactly what I was trying to say... you just put it better


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## Luci07 (23 August 2011)

Interesting posts. I have no problem in selling on a horse that isn't right for me. I can't judge the OP because I have never had a horse whose ill health meant he/she had to slow down or couldn't do what I wanted. I do not count my old mare in this as I knew she would slow down eventually due to her age and chose to keep her at a time when I could have sold her on. I felt her I owed her and have done this before. I equally had no problem with selling on a horse I didn't click with. I had emotionial reasons for hanging onto my previous horse and bailed out of selling him many times but finally, with a bit of good luck, did put him up and sold him to a much better home - better as they never want to event so to them he is Mr Fantastic and Not Mr can't do what I want. 

I have had a friend - her relatively new horse developed nervicular, went through the treatment and, aged 6 was only going to be able to hack/light dressage. Now she did sell him (cheaply) with full disclosure and access to the vets to a woman who wanted a lovely looking horse but didn't want to do too much. Same friend hung onto the very end with an old pony she had loaned as he had given her so much and felt she owed him. She kept the pony till it was time for him to be PTS. 

I do agree you can't compare a horse with a dog or cat though. Vets bills for horses (as we all know) can mount up incredibly quickly, even with insurance plus livery. Says the woman whose young horse has required an emergency visit this morning and put the fear of god into me. Hopefully it is "just" a bad infection and thank god it wasn't colic as we originally thought. Now my bill will come in and be just around my excess..


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## Ranyhyn (23 August 2011)

The thing is, its great that charlie76, you have the indepth knowledge about cataracts - but is anyone IF (i know its a big if) this horse gets into the wrong hands, going to share your view?  

This horse has a target market, happy hackers now sometimes, not always, this can be synonymous with novices - will novices have the weath of knowledge you do?  Or take one look at this potential problem horse and pass him by in favour of a healthy horse?

I think the latter, and when the person who is naughtilly selling him on tires of him not shifting - will they start lying? Will they send him to a sale?  Will he end up on a meat wagon?

I know the only way to be sure that chain of events doesn't happen is to keep them yourselves but if you can also, you do your damn hardest to avoid by loaning, regular checks etc.  Which as we all agreed, OP's friend might well do


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## charlie76 (23 August 2011)

TBH, if everyone took the view that you should keep every horse until it died and you only ever sold a horse to someone you knew would look after it to yourstandard, ride it to your standard and then promised that they would never sell it on and if they did it would have to be to your standards no one would be getting very far! 
Part of selling horse whether they are 100% perfect or not, is judging the person you are selling it to and then having the ability to walk away and move on. This is part of the reality of horse ownership. 
A horse is NOT a pet, they cost a lot to keep and take up a lot of time. To expect people to keep horses that are not suitable for they want to do is unrealistic. If you are the lucky owner of stables and grazing then by all means keep them until their dying day but don't condem someone who is paying the best part of £200 a month for livery plus shoes, feed,hay,beddin etc etc ect when they want to move a horse on that is not up to the job they want to do.

Had the OP come on here and said ' can anyone reccomend a dealer with a horse I can Part ex my horse with potential sight problems with' I could understand the out rage, but she didn't, she came on to ask for suggestions for sensible ideas of what to do with a horse that has still a useful life.
And a good part of the response was to PTS, which surely is a last case resort IF and WHEN the horse ever looses its sight, and lets face it, chances are it will die of something else before that happen!

At no point did the OP say that the owner would simply hand the horse over without vetting homes ect but everyone jumped on the 'how heartless' band wagon.


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## misst (23 August 2011)

elderlycoupleindevon said:



			OP I understand that you are trying to help Puffin by finding him a home, he looks a nice boy.  You are likely to get a few offers of homes, choose wisely.

Make sure the potential new owners are fully aware of the implications and responsibilities of taking on a horse with a degenerative eye condition.  A report from the vet who last examined him would be useful.

He will need monitoring very closely, a vet will show you how to test his vision.

My biggest fear is that, as his sight deteriorates, he will be left in a field and, when he loses his sight completely, he will get himself into real trouble and potentially die in extremis.

I'm always saying this, but there are far worse fates for a horse than PTS
		
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^^^ This.  

I do not think a horse with cataracts needs to be PTS because he has cataracts anymore than for navicular or KS or any other degenerative condition that can be managed. However, if a horse develops a degenerative condition surely it is the owners responsiblity to ensure his future. Loaning may be an option with horse returned when it is no longer useful. However many have pointed out the dangers of missing horses on loan. The thing that annoyed me was the idea that he could be dropped off free to someone with no control over his future use. People can seem nice and have an ulterior motive and he is a pretty looking horse who could be sold on easily.
As for the charity option - don't even start me on that one 

If the owner cannot find a secure vetted loan home or forever home with someone she knows then she needs to either look after him herself or do the right thing by him. 
Interestingly my vet is from New Zealand and laughs at our British idea of "retirement". He looked at my 27yo, my 2yo and my 12yo that was not rideable and  said it was a pity I was saddled with them! He is a fab vet but believes they need a job. Sadly the 12yo deteriorated and was PTS later that year. But I am proud that we have stood by them and my daughter has managed without a competition horse for nearly 3 years rather than move them on or PTS early.


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## Rachaelpink (23 August 2011)

Poor horse. I can understand your friends point of view but it does seem quite harsh given she's kept him and done what she wants to done with him and now she can't do that anymore and he's now old and has problems that she wants to get rid. Personally I couldn't do that. My mare's 16 now and we've had our ups and downs, and I've considered selling her a few times when she was younger, but I couldn't part with her now. I wouldn't be able to cope not knowing how she was. There's too many horses looking for a new home.


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## Lady La La (23 August 2011)

charlie76 said:



			TBH, if everyone took the view that you should keep every horse until it died and you only ever sold a horse to someone you knew would look after it to yourstandard, ride it to your standard and then promised that they would never sell it on and if they did it would have to be to your standards no one would be getting very far! 
Part of selling horse whether they are 100% perfect or not, is judging the person you are selling it to and then having the ability to walk away and move on. This is part of the reality of horse ownership. 
A horse is NOT a pet, they cost a lot to keep and take up a lot of time. To expect people to keep horses that are not suitable for they want to do is unrealistic. If you are the lucky owner of stables and grazing then by all means keep them until their dying day but don't condem someone who is paying the best part of £200 a month for livery plus shoes, feed,hay,beddin etc etc ect when they want to move a horse on that is not up to the job they want to do.

Had the OP come on here and said ' can anyone reccomend a dealer with a horse I can Part ex my horse with potential sight problems with' I could understand the out rage, but she didn't, she came on to ask for suggestions for sensible ideas of what to do with a horse that has still a useful life.
And a good part of the response was to PTS, which surely is a last case resort IF and WHEN the horse ever looses its sight, and lets face it, chances are it will die of something else before that happen!

At no point did the OP say that the owner would simply hand the horse over without vetting homes ect but everyone jumped on the 'how heartless' band wagon.
		
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The point I made was she isn't very likey to sell this horse...
I did say in an earlier post that if she asked a fee for him it would more than likely put off anyone looking to make a quick buck.
At no point did I say only 'people should only sell their healthy, sound horses to people they know that live locally' - but when there are health issues concerned and the horse is unlikely to reach a fee, precautions DO have to be taken...


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## Ibblebibble (23 August 2011)

charlie76 said:



			TBH, if everyone took the view that you should keep every horse until it died and you only ever sold a horse to someone you knew would look after it to yourstandard, ride it to your standard and then promised that they would never sell it on and if they did it would have to be to your standards no one would be getting very far! 
Part of selling horse whether they are 100% perfect or not, is judging the person you are selling it to and then having the ability to walk away and move on. This is part of the reality of horse ownership. 
A horse is NOT a pet, they cost a lot to keep and take up a lot of time. To expect people to keep horses that are not suitable for they want to do is unrealistic. If you are the lucky owner of stables and grazing then by all means keep them until their dying day but don't condem someone who is paying the best part of £200 a month for livery plus shoes, feed,hay,beddin etc etc ect when they want to move a horse on that is not up to the job they want to do.

Had the OP come on here and said ' can anyone reccomend a dealer with a horse I can Part ex my horse with potential sight problems with' I could understand the out rage, but she didn't, she came on to ask for suggestions for sensible ideas of what to do with a horse that has still a useful life.
And a good part of the response was to PTS, which surely is a last case resort IF and WHEN the horse ever looses its sight, and lets face it, chances are it will die of something else before that happen!

At no point did the OP say that the owner would simply hand the horse over without vetting homes ect but everyone jumped on the 'how heartless' band wagon.
		
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oh but it's much more fun to jump on the bandwagon than to be realistic  according to some on here it's the devils own work to be selling or rehoming any horse ever!! if none of us ever moved a horse on for any reason, just kept them to the end of their days there would be no horses to buy


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## BBH (23 August 2011)

The industry would die if no horses were ever sold on and everyone kept them till their death. Just the same as not replacing your car till it was 26 yrs old and refused to start.

Very little money is generated by old horses

Breeders wouldn't be able to earn a living cos no one would buy until their oldie died which given horses can live till their 30+ is a very long time to wait.
Instructors would have fewer lessons or schooling work
livery yards would grind to a halt as most elderly horses are kept very cheaply at home or grass livery
Insurance wouldn't be needed as too expensive on an oldie or pre condition
Show centres wouldn't have the entries 

The whole industry is reliant on people moving horses around through buying and selling or loaning / sharing  and as long as its done with compassion it has to happen to keep horse sport be it pleasure or competition and livelihoods going.


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## 1973horse (23 August 2011)

misst said:



			NO I don't think he needs to be PTS but I think if the owner does not want him he deserves security in his later years and I would not like to think of a horse going blind in changing circumstances. If he were mine I would not PTS I would give him the retirement he deserves even I had to go without the horse I wanted

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this


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## felixlight (23 August 2011)

Samantha008 said:



			Do you know anyone that might be able to help my friends horse? Hes a 14.3hh appaloosax 15years old thats in need of a new home. Hes got cataracts so cant be sold really. At the minute, he can still be ridden, infact- hes great fun to ride! Willl happily hack anywhere and jumps XC etc. Only a few weeks ago he went out to Highclere fun ride and jumped everything. Hes a lovely boy-hence me saying id do this and put up a post on here....But one day his cataracts will make him blind. Hes got them in both eyes- one is worse that the other though. The vet says hes got years and years left...before it makes him blind. Hes got sarcoids too the poor soul. 

My friend has a heart of gold and doesnt want to put him to sleep as he is still perfectly sound and happy and she does ride him out most days. 

But she wants a horse she can do lots of things on and Puffin can only really be hacked and cant be jumped to the degree that she wants to and she cant afford to keep him as a companion.
her other option is a charity- i dont know if anyone knows of one that might be able to help? She doesnt want a penny for him- but she does want to know hes happy and hes not being passed around. 

If anyone knows anyone or any charity please let me know.

Thanks!
		
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Maybe your friend should just do the responsible thing and choose only to hack, rather than be a spoilt brat who can't keep this horse because she wants to jump!


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## michelleyork (23 August 2011)

I havent read all 11 pages of this thread, I got through to page 6 and could see where this was going.

The OP came on to the forum for some help and advice and has been shot down in flames!!  Its not even her own horse, she is asking on behalf of someone.

I realise it can be an emotive subject, horses coming to the end of their workings lives is it right to loan/gift/sell/PTS.  BUT at the same time, unless you know the whole of the story is it really fair to make a judemental opinion??

If you cant come on places like this forum for help and advice and get a civilised response where are people suposed to go??


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## Alibear (23 August 2011)

I usually stay out of these posts.

I think the whole PTS answer is because , on this forum and elsewhere over the years we've seen this situation go wrong for the horse many times. The owner has done their best and loaned or sent with a contract but things have gone wrong, the horse has gone missing and shown up either in very ill health or buted up to the eyeballs and competing despite a broken pedal bone etc. Or perhaps with new owners who are under the impression the horse is perfectly well fit and able and have paid lots for it!

None of us like seeing this happen or even hearing of it happen. It's horrible what some people will do. Heck there's a whole long running post in the stolen horses forum about horses missing on loan. Some are missing having probably been sent to potters which is just horrible when the original person loaned them out to a loving companion home and in several instances checked on them for months on end before they disappeared. 

Others have a great first new home, but then get ill and go onto a another lower level home which is just not quite so great, then they go on again , and so on until they end up in some of the above horrible situations. 

Heck I even know of one who spent 18 month very happily on retirement livery when he was starting to show signs of deteriorating the owner spoke with the livery owner about perhaps the time to PTS was coming that autumn, 2 weeks later the horse was "stolen" from retirement livery never to be seen by the owner again!

So it's very right to be very wary.

That said there are also a few cases on here and else where that horses did get a new loving home with someone they clicked with and they are either still having a great time or had a very caring retirement with a peaceful end when the time came.

What so many are wary of is we know the latter cases are few and far between, despite many of the former cases owners having done their best to ensure their horses future. although I do suspect there's some media type slant on this, I suspect we don't here about all the cases where it went well as it's not as interesting to many as the opposite sort. 

So yes a nice new home is possible but it will take time effort and long term hard work and checks. It could still go wrong even if you do all this. 

Someone mentioned freeze marking, micro-chipping etc, which is definitley a good starting point and register the horse with the companies for life not just a year. 

Good luck, what ever happens.

Oh and unless I completely misunderstood the first post I would say it's already been confirmed that this horse unfortunately has cataracts of the type that are getting progressively worse as time goes. They could reach a level and not deteriorate any more or the rate of deterioration could suddenly speed up. There's just no knowing what will happen with that type unfortunatley.


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## Syrah (23 August 2011)

I think there is a huge difference between moving a horse on because it's been outgrown/doesn't gel with new owner/won't achieve the level the owner expects etc but is physically 100% than because of a degenerative medical problem that has developed after several years of ownership.

PTS is extreme and unecessary in this case.

Hopefully the horse will find a forever home with one of the posters who have shown an interest on here.


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## Empy&Treacle (23 August 2011)

Just to offer something positive... Good luck to the OP's friend.

And now IMO, horses will continue to give right up until the day they physically can no longer.  This horse has time left to be loved by someone who wants what he can give and will not question it... and believe it or not there actually are honest people out there who would love a horse that can offer them this and won't be in it to make a cheap buck by selling him on - i know you are only warning the OP, but it p***es me off all horsey people who can't spend more than a couple of hundred/thousand basically get tarred with the same brush that they don't have the horse's best interest at heart and don't genuinely want to love a horse!!!  Cataracts in a horse that is otherwise fit and well are not compromising for an owner who wants to offer a quieter life. The new owner will be aware of the situation and therefore will be hyper-sensitive to any changes in this horse's character and will do what is right at the right time.  Before the PTS opinion comes along I've had two young horses PTS because physically they were in pain and all operations had been done and still they were not able to be hacked/used as a companion; this boy on the other hand is living with his condition and so long as he is sound and isn't walking in to things then he is more than able to offer someone some fun and the OP should not be shunned for trying to do this. 

It is everyone's choice to try to do what is best for their horse and we all have different opinions, however to say you would never sell a horse if it couldn't offer you what you wanted anymore then, good luck in setting up your own charity!!!  Horses are loved, but get outgrown in height and ability and are moved on to give someone else the pleasure of what that animal can offer... welcome to the real world of those of us who sadly do not have money growing trees!

OP, your friend's horse looks very sweet and I'm sure someone will responsibly take him on. Maybe ABC will be able to offer the home he needs


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## Lady La La (23 August 2011)

Ibblebibble said:



			if none of us ever moved a horse on for any reason, just kept them to the end of their days there would be no horses to buy  

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Doubtful.. what with all the idiots in this world breeding their ten a penny sh**e whenever they feel like it. 

... but just imagine if what you say is true... rescue centres no longer bulging at the seems, no horses going through the sale ring for 2 quid, no horses left neglected, starving or abused. Wouldn't that be just AWFUL


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## Flame_ (23 August 2011)

What to do with a not-100%-healthy but not-100%-knackered horse part 5000000000000010. 

Options

Reduced workload if sound/healthy enough
Total retirement if sound/healthy enough
Loan out to home offering one of the above with good references
PTS

Sell if horse has any value at all
Give away
Send to a market
Send it to a charity
Dump it in a random field and hope some mug adopts it

The first four are responsible, the last five are risky and/or pretty dubious in the ethics department, although some people would put PTS in that category too.


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## Natch (23 August 2011)

1) I find it distasteful that the owner thinks "out with the old, in with the new," but do think they are acting responsibly-ish. "Donating" to a charity IS palming the horse off.

2) I find it worrying that they want to gift, not loan. Hope the OP can talk them into sense there. All they need to do is save up 1 month's livery, diesel costs and disposal costs, to be able to ensure that if a loan is terminated they have the finances available to collect and rehome, or PTS.

3) I thought advertising was banned on this forum?


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## Spotsrock (23 August 2011)

he looks like my horse. I like him. Have Pm'd OP. I have one with cateracts at present but she is 31!


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## cptrayes (23 August 2011)

BoolavogueDC said:



			Hasn't Charlie76 just proved it is possible?  Of course you are dealing also with peoples honesty and good nature but isn't that the best thing you can do - at least try?

I don't disagree the OP's friend deserves to be happy and fulfill her dreams but she also ultimately has a responsibility to try her hardest to secure his future as best she can.  I know it might be a bit pie in the sky to try and do so - but just the action of doing so shows a real dedication to a horse and is something that hopefully buyers/loaners will respond to in kind.
		
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No one said that she should not try, but you said "I'd tie that horse up so tightly that his future would be as sure as though he were with me.. " and I was just pointing out that this is impossible.


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## cptrayes (23 August 2011)

Lady La La said:



			Ahh Cptrayes, I'm sure there's a post somewhere of you revelling in the fact that the minute your horses are no longer 100% fit for purpose you stick a bullet in their heads... You don't keep any of your horses into retirement, do you?
		
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What a stupid post. If you can find that reference about me Lady La La then I will give you £10,000. I have never had a horse shot who was capable of living a happy life for a day longer than he had. I would never have a horse shot who someone else was capable of giving a good life to. Where did you get that ridiculous, and incidentally libellous, idea? Care to let me know your real name so that I can start court proceedings against you or shall I contact the ISP to find out who you are?  Be VERY careful with statements like that, you may feel anonymous and big and brave because of it, but you are easily traceable through the unique reference of your IP address should anyone be more offended by your libellous rubbish than I am.


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## Lady La La (23 August 2011)

cptrayes said:



			What a stupid post. If you can find that reference about me Lady La La then I will give you £10,000. I have never had a horse shot who was capable of living a happy life for a day longer than he had. I would never have a horse shot who someone else was capable of giving a good life to. Where did you get that ridiculous, and incidentally libellous, idea? Care to let me know your real name so that I can start court proceedings against you or shall I contact the ISP to find out who you are?  Be VERY careful with statements like that, you may feel anonymous and big and brave because of it, but you are easily traceable through the unique reference of your IP address should anyone be more offended by your libellous rubbish than I am.
		
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Gosh that sounds a tad dramatic!
 - I'm sure we had a conversation together about a similar subject on one of the PTS threads that's done the rounds on here, in which you said if a horse cant do its job you get rid. You have my deepest and most heartfelt appologies if I'm incorrect, I didn't at any point say I was certain 

... My names Jenny, by the way. Feel free to PM me if you'd like the rest of my information, or like you say, you can trace my IP address 
I meant no offence by my comment, I genuinely thought it was something you said... 
...It must have been someone else..............

Out of interest, Do you keep your horses into retirement? You dont have to answer me at all, I'm just curious, that's all.


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## Syrah (23 August 2011)

Is it possible to be libelous against a forum persona?


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## cshw (23 August 2011)

Gosh, what a nasty lot of people you are in the main. I joined Horse and Hound forum very recently, but have now decided to leave it alone. Incidentally, I am a Vet, who's been qualified for 24 years, and unlike the vast majority of respondents, I would never pass judgement on this situation without knowing all the facts, clinical and non-clinical. Some people need to enter the real world. All my horses/ponies have a forever home, but that's my choice. I am astounded at the level of sheer uncalled-for nastiness that pervades here. Very unhealthy.


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## cptrayes (23 August 2011)

Lady La La said:



			Gosh that sounds a tad dramatic!
 - I'm sure we had a conversation together about a similar subject on one of the PTS threads that's done the rounds on here, in which you said if a horse cant do its job you get rid. You have my deepest and most heartfelt appologies if I'm incorrect, I didn't at any point say I was certain 

... My names Jenny, by the way. Feel free to PM me if you'd like the rest of my information, or like you say, you can trace my IP address 
I meant no offence by my comment, I genuinely thought it was something you said... 
...It must have been someone else..............

Out of interest, Do you keep your horses into retirement? You dont have to answer me at all, I'm just curious, that's all.
		
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Jenny WHAT?

You meant no offence!  "revelling in the fact that the minute your horses are no longer 100% fit for purpose you stick a bullet in their heads..." and you meant no offence! Don't make me laugh. You are either lying or stupid.

 I do not feel ANYONE is obliged to offer a horse a home for life. It is of no relevance whether I do so myself or not, and I have no problem with anyone else's choices in the matter as long as they do their absolute best to secure the horse's future.  I wish there was similar tolerance among some of the other people contributing to this thread.


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## cptrayes (23 August 2011)

Syrah said:



			Is it possible to be libelous against a forum persona?
		
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Yes. 

But I am not a forum persona. I detest the kind of bullying that has gone on on this thread and I believe it is caused primarily by anonymity. I never post under anything but my own name. I   AM C P TRAYES, not a "persona"


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## Ranyhyn (23 August 2011)

Cptrayes what are you going on about now?  Starting court proceedings?  This place has me howling some days - how people can say it's gone to the dogs I don't know.  It just gets more and more farcical every day


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## maggiesmum (23 August 2011)

Admittedly I haven't read all the posts but I've just seen an advert for a 17hh 7yo horse free to a good home, said horse was "rescued" in poor condition when a dealer was about to send it to the knackerman. 
Now I wonder if the inevitable hasn't just been delayed for this poor chap, he's apparently unrideable and 17hh is a bit on the big side for a companion so where does his future lie?

Offered as FTGH chances are he'll end up with someone who'll try and ride him and will spiral back down to the knackerman where he started - so being rescued by a do-gooder might not have done him any favours! 

Equally I have a difficult to manage (physically) and slightly 'tapped' TB, if I couldn't keep him i'd have him PTS, it would break my heart to do it but there's no way i'd pass him on to anyone for fear that he'd end up on that downward spiral.
Sometimes horses are better off PTS than the alternative. 

Slightly OT but on a similar vein I disagree with animal shelters that refuse to put a healthy animal down, our world is overcrowded with unwanted animals and as sad as it is some of them are always going to be difficult to rehome.

I do think that there should be some sort of PTS amnesty scheme, maybe then there would be fewer animals dumped at the side of the road in a box. :-/


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## Lady La La (23 August 2011)

cptrayes said:



			Jenny WHAT?

You meant no offence!  "revelling in the fact that the minute your horses are no longer 100% fit for purpose you stick a bullet in their heads..." and you meant no offence! Don't make me laugh. You are either lying or stupid.

 I do not feel ANYONE is obliged to offer a horse a home for life. It is of no relevance whether I do so myself or not, and I have no problem with anyone else's choices in the matter as long as they do their absolute best to secure the horse's future.  I wish there was similar tolerance among some of the other people contributing to this thread.
		
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I'm hardly likely to give you my full name across a public forum now, am I?
As already stated, you're welcome to PM me for the rest of my details if you wish to persue my comment further.

I'm certainly not lying, although, I may be stupid 
 - the poster in question was, essentially,  "revelling in the fact that the minute your horses are no longer 100% fit for purpose you stick a bullet in their heads..." - you're saying that poster is not you and unless I can locate proof, all I have to go on is my memory, which isn't the most reliable of tools. I've already offered you a heartfelt apology, amungst other things, for implying it was you who made those claims. Can I assume you're saying it's not?

If you take a second to actually read through the comments I've made on this thread, you'll see that I had no issue with people selling their horses - Certainly I never suggested that people should feel 'obliged' to keep their equines until the end of their days, (now who's making stuff up? ) I do, but that's just 'how I roll' 

... The only issue I have raised is that, when health issues are concerned, extra care does need to be taken. I feel that passing the horse off as FOC to any old forum member/member of the public COULD be detremental to the horses future. There are some nasty people in this world (besides myself, obviously  ) and I'd hate any animal thats ever been in my care to end up anywhere near one of those people.
It makes me cross that other people don't take the same precautions for their own animals.


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## cptrayes (23 August 2011)

BoolavogueDC said:



			Cptrayes what are you going on about now?  Starting court proceedings?  This place has me howling some days - how people can say it's gone to the dogs I don't know.  It just gets more and more farcical every day 

Click to expand...

Pointing out that Lady La La's vicious post about me was libellous and warning her and other people that the anonymity they hide behind will not protect them if they do this to someone to whom it matters.

If it makes one poster somewhere someday think twice about writing this incredibly nasty stuff it will have been worth the effort.

I'm glad the exchange gave you some amusement, but I think that it says a lot about your own character that you did not think what was written about me deserved some fairly sharp response.


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## cptrayes (23 August 2011)

Lady La La said:



			I'm hardly likely to give you my full name across a public forum now, am I?
		
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Why not I do and so do quite a few others on this forum, because we would not write anything which we are ashamed that anyone who knew us would read. For what reason do you not want people to know who you are?


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## Ranyhyn (23 August 2011)

I've seen more "vicious" snails than Lady la la's post.  Really cptrayes, I think you might be in the middle of a sugar rush or something


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## Ranyhyn (23 August 2011)

cptrayes said:



			Why not I do and so do quite a few others on this forum, because we would not write anything which we are ashamed that anyone who knew us would read. For what reason do you not want people to know who you are?
		
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cause there are some real nut cases out there cptrayes....


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## Lady La La (23 August 2011)

cptrayes said:



			Why not I do and so do quite a few others on this forum, because we would not write anything which we are ashamed that anyone who knew us would read. For what reason do you not want people to know who you are?
		
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Most people on here DO know who I am... 90% of them have me on facebook, and I've told you that Im quite happy to disclose that information to you, should you wish to try and sue me etc etc..

Its the crazy Bolton Rider Type folk that I could do without knowing who I am and where I live. I dont fancie getting stalked any time soon, understandabley, surely? 

***DISCLAIMER*** - No offence BR, I'm sure you're just grrrrrreat


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## Syrah (23 August 2011)

cptrayes said:



			Yes. 

But I am not a forum persona. I detest the kind of bullying that has gone on on this thread and I believe it is caused primarily by anonymity. I never post under anything but my own name. I   AM C P TRAYES, not a "persona"
		
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Ah right, I wasn't aware.

Why the bullying card?  People have different opinions, it doesn't make anyone from the opposing sides bullies.


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## cptrayes (23 August 2011)

Lady La La said:



			for asking (yes, if you read, I asked, not stated) whether it was you who made those claims. Can I assume you're saying it's not?
		
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How could it be? Do you think I would say I will pay you £10,000 if you can find it if there was the slightest chance that you can find it? 

Do you understand what libel means?  I suppose you can't do or you would have  realised the question was pointless.


Can I suggest that you find the quote and the right poster before you go writing such horrible things to a living human being again?


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## cptrayes (23 August 2011)

Syrah said:



			Ah right, I wasn't aware.

Why the bullying card?  People have different opinions, it doesn't make anyone from the opposing sides bullies.
		
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I would describe a lot of what has been said on this thread, including Lady La La's accusation to me, as bullying. There is no problem with a difference of opinion but some of the opinions expressed on this thread have been vicious in their expression.


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## YasandCrystal (23 August 2011)

cshw said:



			Gosh, what a nasty lot of people you are in the main. I joined Horse and Hound forum very recently, but have now decided to leave it alone. Incidentally, I am a Vet, who's been qualified for 24 years, and unlike the vast majority of respondents, I would never pass judgement on this situation without knowing all the facts, clinical and non-clinical. Some people need to enter the real world. All my horses/ponies have a forever home, but that's my choice. I am astounded at the level of sheer uncalled-for nastiness that pervades here. Very unhealthy.
		
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^^^ ditto this. People are far too judgemental. It is funny that everyone is quick enough to agree that a quirky/handful of a horse should be sold on to a more suitable home as the owner is no longer having 'fun' or having confidence issues, so just how does this differ?? When you sell or rehome a horse you have no more control over it's welfare whether it is has issues/veterinary problems or not. Actually the fact that this owner which is a real rarity amongst horse owners is being HONEST and telling the facts about the pony's problems upfront means that it will likely attract a person like a previous poster who has experience of this sort of progressive problem and knows what to expect if they take on the pony.
Just search this forum for the number of people conned by DISHONEST sellers - oh yes all horse owners lying about age and quirks and illnesses, risking the health of purchasers and ripping them off monetarily with absolutely NO REGARD for the horse!!!!!
Get real folks - this owner is VERY responsible which is more than can be said for many owners. Would you prefer she pts to be sure said pony doesn't go to a wrong home? Remember this pony has years of useful life left!


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## Ranyhyn (23 August 2011)

How is that horrible?  It's not horrible, plenty of people here have horses to work and would have them put down if they couldn't do their job any longer.  I think you are the only one who thinks that horrible cptrayes, so maybe it's more to do with the receptacle then the source..?

Is it ok to write those kind of things to dead members using the forum then   sorry couldn't help it


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## cptrayes (23 August 2011)

BoolavogueDC said:



			I've seen more "vicious" snails than Lady la la's post.  Really cptrayes, I think you might be in the middle of a sugar rush or something 

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When someone accuses you of revelling in having healthy horses shot because they can't do the work you want them to, then we'll see if you feel the same. I am astonished that you cannot see how utterly offensive that accusation is to a horse lover.


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## Lady La La (23 August 2011)

... You'll see i've amended that paricular quote 

According to you, there is no quote, I've had a hunt and I cant find one either. Since I've already offered you several heartfelt apologies AND my full name/address etc - I'm not entirely sure what you'd like from me now?
... From the moment you claimed it wasn't you, I've neither pushed that it was, nor called you a liar. I accepted what you said at face value and stopped looking for a quote which evidently will not exist.... 

... Not sure what else you'd like me to be doing now? .. Other than phoning my soliciter in preparation for court..


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## Ranyhyn (23 August 2011)

I just think you need to calm down cptrayes, that's all... it's a bit crazy to be bandying about law suits over a misunderstanding.  To me, that's all... maybe its completely normal to others..


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## Lady La La (23 August 2011)

BoolavogueDC said:



			I just think you need to calm down cptrayes, that's all... it's a bit crazy to be bandying about law suits over a misunderstanding.  To me, that's all... maybe its completely normal to others..
		
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I would say it seemed bonkers to me, but it probably wouldnt look good against me in court


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## cptrayes (23 August 2011)

Lady La La said:



			... You'll see i've amended that paricular quote 

According to you, there is no quote, I'vw had a hunt and I cant find one either. Since I've already offered you several heartfelt apologies AND my full name/address etc - i'm not entirely sure what you'd like from me now?
... From the moment you claimed it wasn't you, I've neither pushed that it was, nor called you a liar. I accrpted what you said at face value abd stopped looking for a quote which evidently will not exist.... 

... Not sure what else you'd like me to be doing now? .. Other than phoning my soliciter in preparation for court..
		
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I don't want you to do anything now except be more cautious about what you post about people in future. I have simply responded to each of the posts that you countered mine with.

I have no intention of suing you but not everyone would feel the same way and posting stuff you cannot substantiate might get you into hot water one day.

The reason you can't find the quote from me you were looking for is because it does not exist. It does not exist because nothing could be further from the way that I would treat a horse than what you wrote.

I accept your apology, thankyou.


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## Flame_ (23 August 2011)

cptrayes said:



			What a stupid post. If you can find that reference about me Lady La La then I will give you £10,000. I have never had a horse shot who was capable of living a happy life for a day longer than he had. I would never have a horse shot who someone else was capable of giving a good life to. Where did you get that ridiculous, and incidentally libellous, idea?
		
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Here you are explaining the outcome of giving a not-100%-up-to-work horse away and your good fortune at being able to buy it back, and why you are OK with PTS. 

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=458841&highlight=love+horses+riding&page=8


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## cptrayes (23 August 2011)

BoolavogueDC said:



			I just think you need to calm down cptrayes, that's all... it's a bit crazy to be bandying about law suits over a misunderstanding.  To me, that's all... maybe its completely normal to others..
		
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I don't care what you think Boolavogue. I do know that you think that accusing someone of revelling in shooting a healthy horse they own is an acceptable thing to write even when it is completely untrue, and that tells me all I need to  know about how valuable your opinion is, thanks.


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## Lady La La (23 August 2011)

cptrayes said:



			I don't want you to do anything now except be more cautious about what you post about people in future. I have simply responded to each of the posts that you countered mine with.

I have no intention of suing you but not everyone would feel the same way and posting stuff you cannot substantiate might get you into hot water one day.

The reason you can't find the quote from me you were looking for is because it does not exist. It does not exist because nothing could be further from the way that I would treat a horse than what you wrote.

I accept your apology, thankyou.
		
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No worries. Nice to hear you wont be suing me, cant tell you what a releif that is


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## cptrayes (23 August 2011)

Flame_ said:



			Here you are explaining the outcome of giving a not-100%-up-to-work horse away and your good fortune at being able to buy it back, and why you are OK with PTS. 

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=458841&highlight=love+horses+riding&page=8

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And in what way is that 

"revelling in the fact that the minute your horses are no longer 100% fit for purpose you stick a bullet in their heads... "  ???

Did you read the post? That did happen to be the first horse who I ever decided that I owed a home for life and I was forced on the advice of my vet to send him somewhere flat. It was that or move home myself.  

And what is this thread  now - the C P Trayes witchhunt????  I hit my horses as well as sell them. Have you got the ducking stool ready yet?





ps your pointer is to the wrong page of the thread.


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## Ranyhyn (23 August 2011)

cptrayes said:



			I don't care what you think Boolavogue. I do know that you think that accusing someone of revelling in shooting a healthy horse they own is an acceptable thing to write even when it is completely untrue, and that tells me all I need to  know about how valuable your opinion is, thanks.
		
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No need to get antsy cptrayes   I was only thinking about your mental well being - sheesh...


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## Ranyhyn (23 August 2011)

cptrayes said:



			And what is this thread  now - the C P Trayes witchhunt????
		
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Well it started out as the sue lady la la thread so natural progression is inevitable


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## Flicker (23 August 2011)

Oooh another one of these threads...
Just when my afternoon was getting slow


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## cptrayes (23 August 2011)

BoolavogueDC said:



			Well it started out as the sue lady la la thread so natural progression is inevitable 

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No, it started out as the "please help my friend" thread and a load of very nasty people turned it into something completely different.


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## Ranyhyn (23 August 2011)

and you are one of them cptrayes, so in the interest of not seeming like a hypocrite maybe you better stop posting?...


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## charlie76 (23 August 2011)

This needs To stop
 Earlier on I spoke to the owner of the horse who is a total stranger To me.  To speak to some one so upset by the content of this thread is terrible. Hopefully we have sorted this horses future So all of you Can sleep tonight.


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## Lady La La (23 August 2011)

cptrayes said:



			I don't care what you think Boolavogue. I do know that you think that accusing someone of revelling in shooting a healthy horse they own is an acceptable thing to write .
		
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I hate to be pedantic, but I didn't say anything about a healthy horse...
I said a horse that wasn't fit for purpose, which I intended to mean an UNhealthy horse, be it lame, sick etc...

I understand you're maintaining its not you who said it - I also embelleshed the words somewhat but SOMEONE who I thought was you (note im being very careful not to acuse you all over again, here...) said something along the lines of...  'if my horses become no longer rideable I would have them pts as they cost too much money to keep as pets - I dont keep any of mine into retirement, they get PTS.'

...Now, you're saying its not you - I'm saying, I accept that and I cannot find the quote to prove other wise. (I suspect it got heated and deleted, but thats only speculation.) But out of interest, Do you agree with the above quote that I've taken from someone ..that is definately not you?


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## Spring Feather (23 August 2011)

charlie76 said:



			This needs To stop
 Earlier on I spoke to the owner of the horse who is a total stranger To me.  To speak to some one so upset by the content of this thread is terrible. Hopefully we have sorted this horses future So all of you Can sleep tonight.
		
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Sounds very promising.  I hope it all works out well for the lady and her horse


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## Flame_ (23 August 2011)

cptrayes said:



			And in what way is that 

"revelling in the fact that the minute your horses are no longer 100% fit for purpose you stick a bullet in their heads... "  ???

Did you read the post? 

ps your pointer is to the wrong page of the thread.
		
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Maybe its due to different forum settings, its right for me. 

Yes I read it.

I think the "reveling" part was a bit of poetic license exaggeration, but the point was about right. 

You have come across as a strong advocate for why it is advisable to PTS horses who can't work if you aren't prepared to retire them, stating here your own personal bad experience of giving a horse away and now you seem to be advocating giving horses away again.


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## lara b (23 August 2011)

cptrayes said:



			The bitchiness of some of these replies defies belief. The owner is trying to find the best compromise that she can between the fact that she is entitled to live life to the full and wanting to do the best for her horse when she can only afford to keep one.

I wonder how many of you are very young and do not realise that life is different when you are older and you see your chance of achieving something with your riding disappearing with each passing year as you lose your physical abilities.

Horses are not cats and they are not dogs. This horse is not in the house with her, he's in livery. He doesn't think she loves him, and he likes the people he sees around most and who give him his feed. He may like her, but he'll probably have no trouble at all liking  someone else who thinks he's the bees knees. Provided she is careful who he goes to, there is no moral problem at all in finding him a new home. Keeping a horse costing thousands of pounds a year in a livery yard and taking hours a week to manage in no way compares to keeping an old cat or dog for a couple of hundred at home. 

Give the woman a break. If you can't help her find a good home for this horse for crying out loud please stop preaching at her. Not everyone agrees with you that we owe every horse we buy a home for life. You are not saints, though many of you write as if you think you are. Your horses are no happier than ours and they may even be less happy. Why would a horse be happier being less than its owner needs, when it can live with someone for whom it is the bee's knees? Why do so many people think that no-one can possibly look after their horse as well as they can?

OP I hope your friend finds the right home for her horse and the right horse for what she needs.





ps noodle you would have a perfectly healthy horse with slightly fuzzy eyesight put to sleep just because you could not afford to keep him? REALLY?????  And you think somehow that makes you a better owner than the poster's friend?
		
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Thank god there are some people left on here who aren't judgemental of everyone elses lives all the time!


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## YasandCrystal (23 August 2011)

charlie76 said:



			This needs To stop
 Earlier on I spoke to the owner of the horse who is a total stranger To me.  To speak to some one so upset by the content of this thread is terrible. Hopefully we have sorted this horses future So all of you Can sleep tonight.
		
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Well done Charlie76 - words of sanity! If the pony is going to you we know it's going to a good home judging by your recent gallery of beautiful healthy equines


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## Samantha008 (23 August 2011)

No please- every one carry on! This is hilarious! Thankyou cyprates for being realistic about what i was asking for!!!.

 Im thankful there are other level headed people out there!

I dont see the problem in what my friend is doing. I have a lawnmower and i love her to bits- but id be lying if i said i wouldnt prefer her if she could be ridden!!

Hhhmmm. i thought this post would just be ignored....not offerthis much exciting reading.

I dont count this as bullying. Its more of a joke. No one knows me (other than one poster) and no one at all knows sarah (Puffins owner). So its not offending really in any way.

People should have posted if they had an idea what to do with him. Thats all i was asking. Wasdnt asking for someone to turn around and actually want to take him on  that was just a bonus!! 

Ohh i love the horse world.

In other news, my mare came trotting over to call today and gave me the biggest sloppiest lick in the world. I must be such a monster  Poor horse.  I even put a rug on her to keep the rain off!! EVIL!!!!


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## cptrayes (23 August 2011)

charlie76 said:



			This needs To stop
 Earlier on I spoke to the owner of the horse who is a total stranger To me.  To speak to some one so upset by the content of this thread is terrible. Hopefully we have sorted this horses future So all of you Can sleep tonight.
		
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Great news Charlie. Please wish the owner all the best from me in finding a perfect new partner, and give the "blind horse  " a pat too when you get him.


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## ABC (23 August 2011)

charlie76 said:



			This needs To stop
 Earlier on I spoke to the owner of the horse who is a total stranger To me.  To speak to some one so upset by the content of this thread is terrible. Hopefully we have sorted this horses future So all of you Can sleep tonight.
		
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Glad to see he's got a nice home


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## Ranyhyn (23 August 2011)

Samantha008 said:



			Thankyou cyprates for being realistic about what i was asking for!!!.
		
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Its C P TRAYES not C Y PRATES lol  HEHE

I'm glad you don't think people are bullying you or OP, I dont think even some of the more forceful opinions count as bullying, so now cptrayes can stop bandying about the bullying card for anyone other than herself now  or himself, sorry cptrayes


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## blitznbobs (23 August 2011)

This is the meanest bitchiest thread I've ever read on here. I think myself lucky that my parents' have land and I can turn away my oldies... All you who say PTs rather than rehome should remember that when you get to 70 and your eyesight goes fuzzy.., a lot kinder to put you down and cheaper for the tax payer too...


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## Samantha008 (23 August 2011)

P.S. Charlie 76- Please post lost of photos when you get him to show everyone the blind horse that should be put to sleep


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## charlie76 (23 August 2011)

sam, I think you might get in H & H for the top 5 topics this week!!!!


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## Samantha008 (23 August 2011)

Who would ever have thought it  Will have to buy that one!!

Whens he coming Hailey???


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## lara b (23 August 2011)

cshw said:



			Gosh, what a nasty lot of people you are in the main. I joined Horse and Hound forum very recently, but have now decided to leave it alone. Incidentally, I am a Vet, who's been qualified for 24 years, and unlike the vast majority of respondents, I would never pass judgement on this situation without knowing all the facts, clinical and non-clinical. Some people need to enter the real world. All my horses/ponies have a forever home, but that's my choice. I am astounded at the level of sheer uncalled-for nastiness that pervades here. Very unhealthy.
		
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We aren't all like that, but must admit there are some threads on here that are best avoided!  Hope you change your mind, sure you have some very valuable advice/opinions to offer and there are quite a few posters about who are a lot more balanced in their opinions and who can be very helpful, so don't give up yet, even if you just come on a Friday and read Hovis's diary!


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## charlie76 (23 August 2011)

I'm not sure 100% that he is, she just needs to chat to her mum but fingers crossed!


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## aimeetb (23 August 2011)

competitiondiva said:



			oh ............ advertising/not advertising, no money is changing hands so does it matter?? Now if it were for sale for a monetary value then maybe there'd be something to argue about!!

OP please don't place strain on charities/rescues that are already heaving by asking one to take this horse, if they took this one, the flood gates would open having everyone wanting to pass on their old or injured horses!!  

I'm not against a new suitable home being sought, in life things change, fact! My only plea would be that as the horse is not healthy (i.e a normal sale) I would ask not to 'gift' a horse to someone unknown to you.  Keep control of the horse by retaining ownership, by all means look at working livery at riding schools or colleges, loan, etc, but keep hold of his future.  Then when he gets to a point where he can't continue a working life and if there is no where to retire to, she can have him pts with him never ending up suffering.
		
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/\/\/\/\/\/\ this please xx


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## Samantha008 (23 August 2011)

Amazing  I hope he does... id come and have a hack on him for sure


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## Lady La La (23 August 2011)

I'm really glad the horse has found a decent home - For what its worth, if anyone can be bothered to read back... I wasn't advocation it was PTS, I just suggested extra caution was taken in rehoming him... 

Oh, and Cptrayes... This is the quote I was talking about:



cptrayes said:



			I think a lot of people avoid having horses put to sleep because they can't face their own pain.

I would rather see a perfectly healthy, economically unviable horse put to sleep than I would see a horse who should have been put down days, weeks, months or even years before kept alive because the owner can't face her own emotions.
		
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cptrayes said:



			I am not ashamed to say that I keep my horses to ride. When they cannot be ridden to the standard at which I want to ride, I owe them either to find them a good home, or if that is not possible, to have them humanely killed. I don't feel that I owe them a home for life if they can't do what they were bred to do.  They don't know, or care, that they could have lived more years. It is only the owner that knows or cares about that.

For every horse whose owner thinks that they owe them the rest of their natural lives as a paddock ornament, there is another sound horse somewhere being killed for no reason at all.

Is it really anything to congratulate yourself for, and feel superior to those of us who do not think the way you do? You are simply saving one horse that you know and condemning another that you don't to death. Meanwhile you are depriving yourself of the absolute joy of riding a horse that you are at one with. Where is the special merit in any of that?
		
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http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=458841&highlight=society

... I appreciate, as already mentioned the "revelling" etc was added for poetic justice - but the content is the same.


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## Ranyhyn (23 August 2011)

I have the overwhelmingly childish urge to shout SHAZZAM!!!


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## Lady La La (23 August 2011)

..... I could buy a smashing horse for 10k


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## Ranyhyn (23 August 2011)

Lady La La said:



			..... I could buy a smashing horse for 10k 

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I could buy quite a lot of sour grapes for that!


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## mulledwhine (23 August 2011)

And relax !!!!  I am quite exhausted from reading all of this.

I hope tha the horse has found a good home, if I had the space I defiantly would have offered a forever home, as I always do to any horse or pony that comes my way, that does mean many years of not riding, but I have no big plans, other to enjoy my riding, ad to thank my friend when they can no longer work as hard as I would like, by offering them a safe haven until the end of their days.

I  luck to be able to do this, many are not.


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## mle22 (23 August 2011)

There was a thread on competition riders where an event rider was looking to sell her horse that she had had for many years and who had brought her through the grades, but due to soundness issues could no longer compete at the level she wanted. She was ambitious and needed a horse capable of doing what she wanted. She had not one word of criticism! What's the difference?


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## Tormenta (23 August 2011)

mle22 said:



			There was a thread on competition riders where an event rider was looking to sell her horse that she had had for many years and who had brought her through the grades, but due to soundness issues could no longer compete at the level she wanted. She was ambitious and needed a horse capable of doing what she wanted. She had not one word of criticism! What's the difference?
		
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None.


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## Wagtail (23 August 2011)

That is what pisses me off. People who think PTS is the answer. People do not generally get critisised on here for shooting a horse because it is a bit stiff and want to trade it in for a newer model. They usually trawl out the old 'he would never be happy not being ridden or just in the field,' chestnut, or 'no one else could possibly control him, he is so quirky'. In fact they are called 'brave', and 'responsible'. However, if someone wants to find a home for their unwanted horse, they are jumped on. They are told 'there are worse things than being PTS'. But yet people are happy for others to sell on horses at the drop of a hat and who knows what fate ANY horse has in store for it once it is sold?


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## Flame_ (23 August 2011)

mle22 said:



			There was a thread on competition riders where an event rider was looking to sell her horse that she had had for many years and who had brought her through the grades, but due to soundness issues could no longer compete at the level she wanted. She was ambitious and needed a horse capable of doing what she wanted. She had not one word of criticism! What's the difference?
		
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It was in Competition Riders.   FWIW, I generally prefer the perspectives in here, before anyone thinks I'm saying I agree with the lack of criticism of all things rider ambition based in there.


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## mle22 (23 August 2011)

So she should put her ambitions aside and keep this horse, who could quite happily downgrade and give another rider years of pleasure. Ooops - yes that was what was being suggested about the horse in this thread.


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## stencilface (23 August 2011)

Wagtail said:



			That is what pisses me off. People who think PTS is the answer. People do not generally get critisised on here for shooting a horse because it is a bit stiff and want to trade it in for a newer model. They usually trawl out the old 'he would never be happy not being ridden or just in the field,' chestnut, or 'no one else could possibly control him, he is so quirky'. In fact they are called 'brave', and 'responsible'. However, if someone wants to find a home for their unwanted horse, they are jumped on. They are told 'there are worse things than being PTS'. But yet people are happy for others to sell on horses at the drop of a hat and who knows what fate ANY horse has in store for it once it is sold?
		
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Not read all replies (in fact, just this last page  ) but Like this please!

We have a free horse, we've had him 8 years now.  He used to be ridden occasionnally, and did a little SJ with me (which he loved, the little b*gger!) but now at 27 is pretty much a field ornament and a nanny horse.  He is a TB, and required plenty of looking after (and feeding!), we have no long history with this horse, we don't 'owe' him a retirement as such.  However, we are lucky in that we have our own land, and are a bunch of mugs who are a sucker for a sob story (he was going to be PTS as she couldn't find a home for him)

Glad the horse has found a new home, hopefully it will be exactly the one he needs


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## Flame_ (23 August 2011)

mle22 said:



			So she should put her ambitions aside and keep this horse, who could quite happily downgrade and give another rider years of pleasure. Ooops - yes that was what was being suggested about the horse in this thread.
		
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Well I tend to be of that mindset, yes, although a loan would be the ideal scenario. If I had a horse work for me through its best years and then start breaking down, I wouldn't get rid permanently, move on to the next one and assume someone else would look after its future. Personally, I would either live with reducing the workload or loan out to a home with a reduced workload. If the horse became unfit to work at all I would retire or PTS.


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## mle22 (23 August 2011)

Well one of our much loved horses is an eventer who needed an easier life and who gave my daughter great experience round novice tracks so I'm glad not everyone agrees with you.


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## Puppy (23 August 2011)

An ironically timed post, that proves what so many of us are wary of:

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=478999


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## Syrah (23 August 2011)

Puppy said:



			An ironically timed post, that proves what so many of us are wary of:

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=478999



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Yes 

and I agree with Flame, I too am of the mindset that if your horse after years of service starts to break down, you don't get rid for a newer model.

It's entirely different to outgrowing or whatever a healthy, sound horse.


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## mle22 (23 August 2011)

Syrah said:



			Yes 

and I agree with Flame, I too am of the mindset that if your horse after years of service starts to break down, you don't get rid for a newer model.

It's entirely different to outgrowing or whatever a healthy, sound horse.
		
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Why not if it can still give someone else pleasure at the level it is capable of working. Why is that wrong!!


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## Syrah (23 August 2011)

mle22 said:



			Why not if it can still give someone else pleasure at the level it is capable of working. Why is that wrong!!
		
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It's what I think and how I feel.  You think and feel differently.  Challenging me won't change my mind I'm afraid.  I have read all of the replies with an open mind and still haven't changed my mind from my reply early in thread.


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## mle22 (23 August 2011)

Well all I can say is that I don't think I feel any less for my horses than you do but neither do I think that I'm the only person they can be happy with.


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## cptrayes (23 August 2011)

LadyLa La, you wrote:



Lady La La said:



			Ahh Cptrayes, I'm sure there's a post somewhere of you revelling in the fact that the minute your horses are no longer 100% fit for purpose you stick a bullet in their heads
		
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Lady La La said:



			... I appreciate, as already mentioned the "revelling" etc was added for poetic justice - but the content is the same.
		
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The content of me revelling in putting a bullet in the head of any of my horses the minute they are not capable of doing half pass or jumping five foot hedges is the same as this:

"I think a lot of people avoid having horses put to sleep because they can't face their own pain. I would rather see a perfectly healthy, economically unviable horse put to sleep than I would see a horse who should have been put down days, weeks, months or even years before kept alive because the owner can't face her own emotions."

and:

"I am not ashamed to say that I keep my horses to ride. When they cannot be ridden to the standard at which I want to ride, I owe them either to find them a good home, or IF THAT IS NOT POSSIBLE, to have them humanely killed."


What planet are you and your nasty little sidekick on?


ps I did buy a nice horse for £10k as you clearly know. He has been assessed by one of the Olympic judges as probable Grand Prix small tour material and possibly even more talented. Jealous are we girls? Is that where your nastiness is coming from, a thread I put up eight months ago about trying to find a big dressage horse?


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## Syrah (23 August 2011)

mle22 said:



			Well all I can say is that I don't think I feel any less for my horses than you do but neither do I think that I'm the only person they can be happy with.
		
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I didn't say you did feel any less for your horses   You have a different opinion.  I also have no doubts my horse could be happy with someone else, but I just couldn't switch off and get rid if something medical were to occur after years of service - that's just me.


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## ThePinkPony (23 August 2011)

To be hones,  i dont understand some of the posters on this forum,  it seems you are damned if you dont, damned if you do.

I remember a few weeks ago the post looking for a laminitic pony to be a companion for a ladys other lami pony, purely because the poor woman had purposely built a sand paddock for her beloved pony and felt its best companion would be lami so it would be fine in those conditions also and the comments on there, the amount of posters jumping on her...

I dunno, looks like a lovely horse and i hope he gets a lovely home, jeez id offer him one if it werent for the fact that there is a high possibility that he would need early PTS, and i would really strugle with that.


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## lexiedhb (23 August 2011)

Puppy said:



			An ironically timed post, that proves what so many of us are wary of:

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=478999



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THIS ^^^^^^^^^^

Personally I would rather see a horse I loved PTS when I out grew it, moved on, lost interest, its health failed, than subject it to years of misery in the wrong hands.


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## cbmcts (23 August 2011)

mle22 said:



			Why not if it can still give someone else pleasure at the level it is capable of working. Why is that wrong!!
		
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No, not at all.

I think what the majority of posters are saying though is that his future should be secured because of his medical issues- JMHO but it is next to impossible to do that if he is gifted away as you have lost all control.

A loan would be ideal but of course there is a risk he would be returned and the OP said in her first few posts that his owner didn't want that. I know that bad things could happen to any horse who was sold, healthy or not but because of his age and history he is more vulnerable than most.

PTS would be a very hard decision and while I wouldn't like to have to make it you have to admit that the horse wouldn't be in danger/vulnerable any longer.
It's not the answer to everything but it is a viable option in a lot of cases.

I have no problem when a horse is sold (after all where would you get a made horse otherwise?) but this isn't the classic scenario of moving on an animal that may not be 'for you' but is otherwise healthy. 

I expect HHO to get heated with lots of opposing views - and enjoy that TBH - but this fairly recent thing of screaming "creuuuuul" because you disagree is getting a bit boring. Lots of people say or do things that I disagree with and while I will say that I don't agree I don't think that I've ever said anything that implies another poster is personally bad/morally suspect as a result!


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## Dancing Queen (23 August 2011)

jesus - is this still going on??

To Sam and Charlie - THANK YOU for rehoming a horse with plenty of life left in him and being such lovely people. I will send you some carrots for Puffins home warming! xxx


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## Lady La La (23 August 2011)

Cpt, please..... I had no idea you bought a horse for 10 grand, why on earth would I have known?
You offered me 10 grand to prove that you pts your horses if they can no longer do their job... 
Which I did, that was the joke 
As already said perhaps you didn't 'revel' but judging by your comments regarding those of us who DONT rehome or shoot our horses as soon as they go wrong, you seem to enjoy looking down on us... for being good people...

Play on the use of the word revel all you like - you knew precisely what I was talking about when I brought this quote up, yet you chose not to reveal the conversation, in the hope that I wouldn't find it.

You're selfish for not offering your horses the retirement you owe to them, and the fact you tried to tell ME, someone who allows my animals to live out their useless, retirements with me, at home that im RESPONSIBLE for another horses death is a *******ing joke.
You, are a joke.

Crack on, sue me....


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## Puppy (23 August 2011)

cptrayes said:



			ps I did buy a nice horse for £10k as you clearly know. He has been assessed by one of the Olympic judges as probable Grand Prix small tour material and possibly even more talented. Jealous are we girls? Is that where your nastiness is coming from, a thread I put up eight months ago about trying to find a big dressage horse?
		
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What the badger has that got to do with the price of fish?!


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## angiebounty (23 August 2011)

mle22 said:



			There was a thread on competition riders where an event rider was looking to sell her horse that she had had for many years and who had brought her through the grades, but due to soundness issues could no longer compete at the level she wanted. She was ambitious and needed a horse capable of doing what she wanted. She had not one word of criticism! What's the difference?
		
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Exactly!


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## Holly Hocks (23 August 2011)

Puppy said:



			What the badger has that got to do with the price of fish?! 

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I read a few of the replies on here last night - I've just read the same as you and wondered the same thing!!  Why would anyone give a toss that she has spent 10k on a dressage horse??  Does it mean that because she probably spends more money on horses than the rest of us that her view is right?


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## DragonSlayer (23 August 2011)

mle22 said:



			There was a thread on competition riders where an event rider was looking to sell her horse that she had had for many years and who had brought her through the grades, but due to soundness issues could no longer compete at the level she wanted. She was ambitious and needed a horse capable of doing what she wanted. She had not one word of criticism! What's the difference?
		
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Coz we is all Fluffers and them's is the beez kneez doncha kno.....



Oh dear, Fluffers is rude, right??

OK.....fluffy buns then!


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## mle22 (23 August 2011)

DragonSlayer said:



			Coz we is all Fluffers and them's is the beez kneez doncha kno.....



Oh dear, Fluffers is rude, right??

OK.....fluffy buns then!



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Eh?


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## DragonSlayer (23 August 2011)

mle22 said:



			Eh?
		
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Yes, that's how this thread made me feel....

Translated-

It is because we all here look at the world through rose-coloured glasses, and those in CR are 'professionals', so they get away with it.....

All in jest of course....


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## mle22 (23 August 2011)

Ah!


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## Dobiegirl (23 August 2011)

ps I did buy a nice horse for £10k as you clearly know. He has been assessed by one of the Olympic judges as probable Grand Prix small tour material and possibly even more talented. Jealous are we girls? Is that where your nastiness is coming from, a thread I put up eight months ago about trying to find a big dressage horse?[/QUOTE]

I dont give a toss how much you spent on a horse that dosnt make your opinions right in fact you come across as a patronising boaster and who can prove that indeed you spent this amount on a horse. Does it matter how much you spent? personally I would rather spend the money on a racehorse.


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## JosieB (23 August 2011)

I still remember her cat thread, hillarious.


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## Dobiegirl (23 August 2011)

JosieB said:



			I still remember her cat thread, hillarious.
		
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Can you give us the link please.


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## Lady La La (23 August 2011)

... Then there's the thread about beating up her shetland in the feed shed in order to discourage him from going in there, as she cannot ensure the door is closed at all times..
Not to mention the Germans who 'burn their babies...'


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## Flame_ (23 August 2011)

TBF those threads aren't really relevant to this debate, however neither is the purchase of a 10k dressage horse.


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## TheEquineOak (23 August 2011)

Phew!

That took a lot of reading 

I bought my horse knowing fine well he has a diagnosed SI injury.  Old owner didn't want him because he would not be well enough to compete professionally but he suits me to a tee.

If we kept all these broken horses for life then I wouldn't have found my horse of a lifetime...


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## Lady La La (23 August 2011)

"TBF those threads aren't really relevant to this debate, however neither is the purchase of a 10k dressage horse. "

You're right Flame, having been through her posts trying to find that quote they're fresh in my mind, unfortunately..
I'm on my phone so unable to delete my comment concerning her other posts - so i'll make my apologies now as no doubt she'll be demanding them later, anyway.
Sorry for bringing up your other posts CPT's..


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## Dobiegirl (23 August 2011)

Lady La La said:



			... Then there's the thread about beating up her shetland in the feed shed in order to discourage him from going in there, as she cannot ensure the door is closed at all times..
Not to mention the Germans who 'burn their babies...'
		
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I remember the Shetland thread, she couldnt rely on her husband to shut the door, definately off her trolley.


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## Amaranta (23 August 2011)

cptrayes said:



			ps I did buy a nice horse for £10k as you clearly know. He has been assessed by one of the Olympic judges as probable Grand Prix small tour material and possibly even more talented. Jealous are we girls? Is that where your nastiness is coming from, a thread I put up eight months ago about trying to find a big dressage horse?
		
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Oh dear!  I suspect you have no idea how this post has just made you sound 

PS:  I was offered £25k for one of mine - I refused the offer having spent the last 5 years training her 

PPS:  I further suspect my PS has gone right over your head


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## vikkibeth (24 August 2011)

Wow ok now my brain hurts! I know we all have our own opinions and we all think we are correct but jumping down at each others throats never helped anyone! Am glad to see that there are people out there willing to answer the post rather than judge!


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## cptrayes (24 August 2011)

Lady La La said:



			..... I could buy a smashing horse for 10k 

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I was replying to this. I had completely forgotten challenging Lady La La to substantiate her claim that I put a bullet in my horses heads as soon as they can't do what I want them to do. It is so far from credible that the £10,000 I offered if she could do so was actually due to her that I forgot about it, and thought that she was talking about the horse I bought back in January. These things happen to humans, you know?

As for my other posts, I have no problem with anyone reading any of them. That's why I post in my own name, I don't write anything that I wouldn't say to anyone's face -

how many of you can say the same, hand on heart?


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## jendie (24 August 2011)

I think the question here is what do we do with horses who are past their sell by dates or who have a limited useful life. I personally feel that the owners have a big responsibility to them and that to simply wash their hands by passing the problem on to someone else is irresponsible. I don't care what the 'professionals' do, I don't believe the responsibility changes simply because of the level of riding. A horse is a horse. It is not a car, it is a living being with needs and feelings. If the current owner cannot offer a secure future herself she should look for someone who can....but if she simply wants to offload a problem then she should examine her motives and her behaviour. And if she cannot guarantee a secure future there is only one option - to have the horse put to sleep to save it from any further suffering that will result from her lack of responsibility and compassion. People so often see their animals as disponsible. That is why horse, dog and cat rescues are full to bursting. A dog is for life, not just for Christmas. A horse is for life not just for winning cups and kudos.


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## Lady La La (24 August 2011)

cptrayes said:



			I was replying to this. I had completely forgotten challenging Lady La La to substantiate her claim that I put a bullet in my horses heads as soon as they can't do what I want them to do. It is so far from credible that the £10,000 I offered if she could do so was actually due to her that I forgot about it, and thought that she was talking about the horse I bought back in January. These things happen to humans, you know?

As for my other posts, I have no problem with anyone reading any of them. That's why I post in my own name, I don't write anything that I wouldn't say to anyone's face -

how many of you can say the same, hand on heart?
		
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I can   ... Cross my heart and hope to die 

... I met a fair few people from here only a few weeks ago at a BBQ - not ashamed to put a face to my name on here in the slightest. I say what I think, and I think you are an idiot.

The sentence in which I quoted at you holds more water than you seem to want to admit... You've admitted to not keeping your horses into retirement, and if you cant rehome them you put them down so as to avoid having to pay out to keep a horse that cannot be ridden to the standard that you would like
...You also saw fit to preech at people like me, who give back to their horses that which they deserve (by allowing them to live a happy peaceful retirement, or seeing them through lameness, illness etc) that we are condeming other, fit horses to death...Ridiculous 

Have the courage of your convictions and, instead of attempting to deflect the 'argument' over to me because I used the word 'revel' stand up for these beleifs of yours and quit trying to weasle your way out of them.

You're selfish, plain and simple.


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## Samantha008 (24 August 2011)

Wow this has got mean between you two!!!


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## Ranyhyn (24 August 2011)

I got offered £30k for mine....

and half a crunchie


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## Amaranta (24 August 2011)

BoolavogueDC said:



			I got offered £30k for mine....

and half a crunchie 

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lol! Does a third of a KitKat count too?


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## PolarSkye (24 August 2011)

At the risk of hijacking this already pretty hijacked thread further . . . 

So what IS the difference between a competitive rider selling on (or loaning out) a horse that can't take them further due to ongoing soundness issues - but is still relatively healthy and rideable at lower levels . . . and a pleasure rider palming off a sick, degenerating horse (either to a charity or selling on or gifting) because they can no longer do the things they enjoy with their horse (ridden)?

I identify with the latter - primarily because I am not a competitive rider.  I bought Kali for my daughter and I to have some fun with.  He's a relative youngster at 9, so I do hope I won't have to worry about his retirement for a good while yet (although with horses one never knows), but when I bought him I did so with the intention that he would have a home with us for life.  I'm grown up and realistic enough to know never to say never . . . but I'll move hell and high water to keep him past his useful ridden life - as long as he has a decent quality of life - until it's time for him to be PTS.  

That said, I have no major ridden ambitions - sure I'd like to do some low level dressage on him - perhaps take up jumping again - and I'm really having fun watching my trainer get the best out of him and take him out doing things I'd never be brave (or good) enough to do.  But, if I couldn't ride him again, I'd keep him.  

I have an acquaintance who currently has three horses:  a loan pony for her daughter, her father's fully-retired mare and her own, elderly gelding who is sound and fit and still rideable.  Said gelding is sharp, though, and K doesn't like hacking him (all they have at the yard is road hacking) and is bored just riding him in the school.  She doesn't compete (has her hands full with two jobs and two young children).  But she has advertised this 19-year-old gelding for sale b/c she wants something she can "do more" with and can't afford to take on another and keep her boy.  I have to say that left me a little flummoxed.  She's had this horse 10 years.  Surely she owes him safety and dignity in his retirement?  

So what IS the difference?

P


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## kirstie (24 August 2011)

The beauty of the horse world is that it is diverse in it's members. There is a wealth of different ideas, methods and practices, some better than others. 
Just because someone has different methods and beliefs to you, does not neccessarily mean that they are wrong and you are right or vice versa.

My old horse had chronic recurrent uveitis at the age of 10. I did everything I could to save his eye but just couldn't. Everytime we thought we had control of it his eye flared up again. 
He was a very difficult horse who had a tendency to blind bolt, once so badly he ran into a tree and fractured his scapula and nearly had to PTS on the spot. (Before he was given to me.)

It was impossible to save his eye, he would have had to have his eye removed. The vet and I both felt that it would be very dangerous to ride him with one eye, so I made the decision to PTS.
He wouldn't happily live out and and I couldn't afford to have two. It is my passion to ride, I can't afford to spend out £300+ on a horse that I could not ride. I was upset but I never felt guilty and I never will.
I would not have kept him, I would not have fobbed him off on to someone else. Very different from the OP's friends horse who sounds like he has many useful years ahead of him.

My horse that I have now is my horse of a lifetime. She will always have a home with me. 

If someone has a horse no matter what, and doesn't care that they can't ride then that is great, good for them. I don't think that they have the right to condone others who do want to ride and can't afford to keep a horse that is not up to what they want. As long as said person is responsible in assuring the horses future, whether it be re homing or PTS, I don't see the problem.

Looking down on others because they don't have the same beliefs is rather narrow minded.


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## Lady La La (24 August 2011)

BoolavogueDC said:



			I got offered £30k for mine....

and half a crunchie 

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I'll give you the other half of a crunchie if you promise to be my 'nasty little sidekick' for the rest of your bitter old life 

...I'll give you two apples, a paper clip and 2/3rds of a bottle of my Juicey coture perfume ..for Clover, she's lushhh


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## Flame_ (24 August 2011)

Polarskye, to me it comes down to whether a horse is right or not. If it genuinely is sound, healthy and is likely to stay that way for years it will have a value and be sellable, if it isn't you're stuck with it (for want of a better way of putting it  ) to either loan out, retire or PTS.

I know many competition riders pass on horses which aren't right after years of hard work, to me it is sometimes even worse than a one horse owner who hasn't got their own land trying to rehome their only unrideable riding horse.


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## Ranyhyn (24 August 2011)

Is that what I've been branded, the nasty little sidekick?  What just because I was happy to find you WONT be going to court? Dear oh dear!


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## ThePinkPony (24 August 2011)

Thats the one thing i have always hated about the horse world.

When i was growing up i couldnt have possibly had a horse, so i waited until i was in the position where i could take on a horse, and have it until its days are no longer comfortable, but i was forever hearing horsey girls i knew going on about how they couldnt really be bothered with X so mummy is selling him, and weeks later a new horse took its place. they didnt give a second thought to where the horse was going or what would become of it. 

I was shocked to see lovely, well behaved horses being dumped because they no onger fitted in with these teenagers social lives, every other day a poster being put up, where a lovely ''prospect'' was being sold because its owner had ''discovered boys''. 

Makes me angry. i know that my horses have a place to go if my circumstances changed, and i wish more people would think like that!


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## Ranyhyn (24 August 2011)

Amaranta said:



			lol! Does a third of a KitKat count too?
		
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Only if its a kitkat chunky!!!


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## Ranyhyn (24 August 2011)

cptrayes said:



			What planet are you and your nasty little sidekick on?
		
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what's your name and full postal address please, I am going to start court proceedings against you for defamation of character.  I would clearly be the leader and she'd be MY nasty little sidekick 

Also your bank account and sort code number.....


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## Lady La La (24 August 2011)

BoolavogueDC said:



			what's your name and full postal address please, I am going to start court proceedings against you for defamation of character.  I would clearly be the leader and she'd be MY nasty little sidekick 

Also your bank account and sort code number.....



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can-ayy-avv-yorr-creddditt-carddd-detayalllsssss


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## *hic* (24 August 2011)

_So what IS the difference between a competitive rider selling on (or loaning out) a horse that can't take them further due to ongoing soundness issues - but is still relatively healthy and rideable at lower levels . . . and a pleasure rider palming off a sick, degenerating horse (either to a charity or selling on or gifting) because they can no longer do the things they enjoy with their horse (ridden)?_


As the mother of a teen who benefited from just such a horse as you describe in your first example and as the owner of a pony similar to the one second in your description, LOTS!

The first case is a healthy horse, no longer capable of being a top athlete but to all intents and purposes more than up to the job he is being reallocated to.

The second case is in your words sick and degenerating and can no longer be ridden. There are few people who can afford to take on an ill, progressively worsening animal and at the risk of winding a lot of people up it should be remembered that the person who appears to be going to take on the horse in this thread is getting an additional horse for use in their riding school which will in fact be making them money, without the associated costs of having to travel to choose the horse and pay for it.

I'm not knocking the person for that, they have the experience and knowledge to deal with the horse's particular needs and it should all work out very well as it would seem to be a perfect match and her horses always look very well but it is not done for entirely altruistic reasons.


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## PooJay (24 August 2011)

Don't normally post in these threads as everyone has different circumstances and opinions on these matters and i hate this bandwagon cr@p that goes on in here. 

However, CPtrayes (sp) is a really valuble and helpful poster on this forum and with advice given out has probably helped more horses than most. I think it's unfair to jump on him/her for this one "opinion" when they have offered such valid and helpful advice in the past. I would hate to think that he/she would refrain from posting in future because of this kind of thing.


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## Ranyhyn (24 August 2011)

Poojay she wont   even though cptrayes has branded me nasty, I just found it funny that she threatenned to take someone to court for saying something, which the poster later substantiated.  No malice in that - it's just funny.  If cptrayes chooses not to post after this then she clearly has no sense of humour, because to most people, that's quite amusing.


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## PooJay (24 August 2011)

yeah it's all a bit personal though isn't it, it's a public forum and although opinions are opinions and everyone's entitled to them (blah blah blah etc etc) in MY opinion, it's just a bit silly and shouldn't be done in public. 

Like i said, i normally don't post in threads like this but i have read a lot of cptrayes posts and i can't say i've read any of them that have been unhelpful or judgmental and it would be a shame for someone to pull an opinion of cptrayes from this and discount their advice in future. 

Sorry, imo of course.


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## Lady La La (24 August 2011)

PooJay said:



			yeah it's all a bit personal though isn't it, it's a public forum and although opinions are opinions and everyone's entitled to them (blah blah blah etc etc) in MY opinion, it's just a bit silly and shouldn't be done in public. 

Like i said, i normally don't post in threads like this but i have read a lot of cptrayes posts and i can't say i've read any of them that have been unhelpful or judgmental and it would be a shame for someone to pull an opinion of cptrayes from this and discount their advice in future. 

Sorry, imo of course. 

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Dont really understand how it has become personal... other than CPT's previous posts being brought up once or twice (which are already in the public domain for people to see)  the only personal information being handed over was my own...


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## lexiedhb (24 August 2011)

PooJay said:



			Don't normally post in these threads as everyone has different circumstances and opinions on these matters and i hate this bandwagon cr@p that goes on in here. 

However, CPtrayes (sp) is a really valuble and helpful poster on this forum and with advice given out has probably helped more horses than most. I think it's unfair to jump on him/her for this one "opinion" when they have offered such valid and helpful advice in the past. I would hate to think that he/she would refrain from posting in future because of this kind of thing.
		
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Seriously it is not just this one opinion!! She'll be back the next time a thread catches her eye........ In fact post a barefoot thread....


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## PooJay (24 August 2011)

Lady La La said:



			Dont really understand how it has become personal... other than CPT's previous posts being brought up once or twice (which are already in the public domain for people to see)  the only personal information being handed over was my own...
		
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 fair do's. I haven't read all of the thread, virtually none at all in fact but i did read a few bits which seemed to get nasty and i just wanted to add my peace making two penneth


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## ThePinkPony (24 August 2011)

lexiedhb said:



			Seriously it is not just this one opinion!! She'll be back the next time a thread catches her eye........ In fact post a barefoot thread....
		
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lexie can you not just post another story about your ''dangerous dog'' Dex  im sure she will have something to say about him and your ownership skills


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## PooJay (24 August 2011)

lexiedhb said:



			Seriously it is not just this one opinion!! She'll be back the next time a thread catches her eye........ In fact post a barefoot thread....
		
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which she ALWAYS offers brilliant advice on. 

Anyway, enough of me. I won't say anymore on the matter.


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## lexiedhb (24 August 2011)

ThePinkPony said:



			lexie can you not just post another story about your ''dangerous dog'' Dex  im sure she will have something to say about him and your ownership skills 

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Quite


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## *hic* (24 August 2011)

In fact if you can ask about whether he'd be better shod or just needs doggy wellies you'd get her here double quick


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