# Pinch boots, rapping and other forms of SJ torture



## FfionWinnie (30 December 2016)

I'm not a real show jumper. However I've trained quite a few unlikely horses to jump now with the help of a really good sj coach. Most were cobs, perhaps not known for their supreme athleticism but they all have one thing in common. They are careful. They hardly ever touch a pole and if they do you can guarantee it was my riding that caused it.  None of them have worn any sort of torture device to achieve this, it's just proper training done by someone who only half knows what they are doing. 

So with that in mind, I have to ask why anyone, particularly people who are proper show jumpers with horses bred to jump so should be supremely athletic and able, still use outdated torture devices to achieve the elusive clear round and why it is even allowed. 

I'm no bunny hugger but it makes me very sad that my new horse who IS a show jumper is noticeably more anxious showjumping than doing anything else despite the fact he had never done "anything else" until he came to me.


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## Cortez (30 December 2016)

Well, that's human beings for you.....totally selfish, stop-at-nothing, competitive, nastly domineering little primates that we are!


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## Sukistokes2 (30 December 2016)

Cortez said:



			Well, that's human beings for you.....totally selfish, stop-at-nothing, competitive, nastly domineering little primates that we are!
		
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Here here!!!!!!!


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## junglefairy (30 December 2016)

Is rapping really still widely used? I've never seen it used or heard anyone admit to it. 

Pinch boots are such a bizarre, crude and uncivilised concept, do they actually work? 

From what I see one of the worst practices in SJ is over working young horses. I see so many nice 3 and 4 year olds for sale that are already jumping courses which suggest they've done much more work than a horse that age should be doing. Funnily enough I see far less nice, sound, 10 year olds; I suspect these over-produced youngsters don't last long.


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## Goldenstar (30 December 2016)

So much more fun to get all hot under the collar about what others do ,so much less hard work than setting about improving yourself .


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## Sukistokes2 (30 December 2016)

junglefairy said:



			Is rapping really still widely used? I've never seen it used or heard anyone admit to it. 

Pinch boots are such a bizarre, crude and uncivilised concept, do they actually work? 

From what I see one of the worst practices in SJ is over working young horses. I see so many nice 3 and 4 year olds for sale that are already jumping courses which suggest they've done much more work than a horse that age should be doing. Funnily enough I see far less nice, sound, 10 year olds; I suspect these over-produced youngsters don't last long.
		
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I think this is down to the idiots who buy them. When starting my young horse I didn't even consider jumping until he was five and even then it was just an odd pop. People are just so impatient these days. They want them young, jumping and working in an " outline" long before they are ready! Then bleat when they break !!  If people didn't buy over produced horses the market would bottom out.


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## Pinkvboots (30 December 2016)

What are pinch boots I have never heard of them?


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## Damnation (30 December 2016)

Cortez said:



			Well, that's human beings for you.....totally selfish, stop-at-nothing, competitive, nastly domineering little primates that we are!
		
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Totally agree!!!

Pinch boots are a new one on me (so I've had a quick google) but then I never was a jumper, bit jeeeez why on earth would you use those??!

I'll stick with my non booted horse!


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## Clodagh (30 December 2016)

Rapping is still well used, so I hear. Also rumours abound that there are always people developing sensitivity chemicals who are one step ahead of the testers.
The trouble is to jump at absolutely top level you need a top level horse, which probably make up 0.5% of the SJ population. The rest are decent horses but need a bit of motivation to extend themselvews to the point of never touching anything. 
FW, I doubt whether or not your horses touch a pole will cost you thousands of pounds, the top competitors it will. I am not condoning the cruelty but it will never stop.
Look t dressage horses, for every capable one like Valegro there is some poor little thing being stabbed and hauled into the same shape.


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## Damnation (30 December 2016)

Pinkvboots said:



			What are pinch boots I have never heard of them?
		
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From what I gather they pinch the back of the leg when the horse takes off. Presumibly to make the horse reflexively pick their legs up.


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## milliepops (30 December 2016)

Goldenstar said:



			So much more fun to get all hot under the collar about what others do ,so much less hard work than setting about improving yourself .
		
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Ouch! :blue:  I think it's possible to do both at the same time, and IMO no one can accuse FW of not setting about to improve!!



Clodagh said:



			The trouble is to jump at absolutely top level you need a top level horse, which probably make up 0.5% of the SJ population. The rest are decent horses but need a bit of motivation to extend themselvews to the point of never touching anything. 
FW, I doubt whether or not your horses touch a pole will cost you thousands of pounds, the top competitors it will. I am not condoning the cruelty but it will never stop..
		
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^^ this, I think. Rules tighten up around things, and then someone dreams up the next gadget.  I don't think I'd have it in me to push a horse to the limit using these techniques, but then that probably explains why I'll never be a top rider.
There are probably such things that are... less unacceptable... in skilled hands, but the popularity and availability means that they are tempting for less experienced but ambitious hands. This holds true throughout the horsey world - think of the naive teenager who sees someone using draw reins and decides to have a go to get their horse 'on the bit'.

** HHO disclaimer, not having a bash at teenagers or draw reins, lol, just one example**


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## ihatework (30 December 2016)

Pinkvboots said:



			What are pinch boots I have never heard of them?
		
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They are a fetlock boot where the hind strap is positioned so that when tightened their is a propriception response - it is believed to improve hind limb technique in some horses. FEI legal (although it wouldn't surprise me if it wasn't in future). Like everything, they are open to abuse.


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## Sukistokes2 (30 December 2016)

Damnation said:



			From what I gather they pinch the back of the leg when the horse takes off. Presumibly to make the horse reflexively pick their legs up.
		
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Just a thought but in the end won't that make the horse reluctant to jump? Now I'm not a jumper and I would never use stuff like that anyhow but.......if there is pain when the horse takes off , won't that in the end cause the horse just not to take off?


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## shadeofshyness (30 December 2016)

Someone I know was posting about buying pinch boots the other day on FB. Legal or not, the thought makes me very uncomfortable


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## popsdosh (30 December 2016)

Torture is an emotive word .
Im afraid most techniques are legitimate if used in careful hands and they will always carry on. Its when they are used by the inexperienced they become a problem. The one exception being hyper sensitising of the lower limbs there is no excuse!


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## Cortez (30 December 2016)

milliepops said:



			Ouch! :blue:  I think it's possible to do both at the same time, and IMO no one can accuse FW of not setting about to improve!!



^^ this, I think. Rules tighten up around things, and then someone dreams up the next gadget.  I don't think I'd have it in me to push a horse to the limit using these techniques, but then that probably explains why I'll never be a top rider.
There are probably such things that are... less unacceptable... in skilled hands, but the popularity and availability means that they are tempting for less experienced but ambitious hands. This holds true throughout the horsey world - think of the naive teenager who sees someone using draw reins and decides to have a go to get their horse 'on the bit'.

** HHO disclaimer, not having a bash at teenagers or draw reins, lol, just one example**
		
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Yes, exactly. Having worked in top level dressage for a while (not in this country), I saw enough going on to convince me I didn't have the requisite killer drive to make it at top level. 

Hey, I like horses; nothing could induce me to do stuff that I didn't feel was fair to horses just to win at competitions.


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## Shay (30 December 2016)

Every discipline and every level has things that others find unacceptable.  I think that is just humans.  I have no direct comparison but I would not be surprised if the same types of things (i.e. things others don't like) also goes on in dog or cat showing.  Or anything else.  Some of the practices at Ballet school are astounding - and that's humans on humans!

All we can do - as Goldenstar suggests - is look to the plank in our own eye.  I don't mean to be sanctimonious - but I'm sure every one of us has one or two practices with our own horses that others on here think are wrong.  Lunge with a pessoa?  Ever thought about Parelli?  Bit?  Don't bit?  Shoe?  Don't shoe?

Good emotive topic for a holiday though!


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## FfionWinnie (30 December 2016)

I'm afraid pinch boots are torture because as far as I understand it the horse has no way to escape the action of the boots regardless of how well it jumps the fence. 

The action which is discomfort to pain depending on who is using these devices and how much they know about what they are doing and how to achieve it, is negative. 

The horse cannot escape the pain even if it does snap its legs up as they are designed to make it do.  It's not a well timed punishment for doing it wrong it's a punishment regardless of how well they do it - that is the bit I really dislike. 

So it's not training at all really, only cheating. 

As for me needing to remove the stick from my eye I'm not sure what my ability has to do with other people deliberately causing discomfort to a horse. I am always looking at what I am doing and if I can do it better, with better technology etc for the comfort of the horse. There is I believe no bigger critic of myself than I!

The reason I posted about it was I saw someone was wondering why pinch boots would be rubbing the horse raw after a *prolonged* period of wearing them. 

Horses are lovely animals who carry us on their backs very good naturedly. Causing them deliberate discomfort is not in my opinion acceptable at any level.


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## stencilface (30 December 2016)

See I jumped my horse as a 5yo over a 1.30m puissance wall, didn't plan on it, but he found it so easy, I had never schooled over it!

He's a horse that hates knocking things and can panic a bit, despite the fact that he's never been hit for it ever. Having a horse that is so naturally neat and careful, and is far from bred for it (unknown luso x tb) makes me wonder why people would go to such lengths I'll agree. Then I wonder why eventers bother with horses that hate water etc.

I admit I used pinch boots when I worked for a showjumper as I was told to. They were put on at the last minute and removed asap. She was imho a nice showjumper, and only used them on one horse and as much as I saw from the other competitors, she was the very very thin end of the wedge.


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## TuscanBunnyGirl (30 December 2016)

Cortez said:



			Having worked in top level dressage for a while (not in this country), I saw enough going on to convince me I didn't have the requisite killer drive to make it at top level.
		
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Unfortunately top level equestrian sport is a cruel place to be I find.  It's sickening what some do to their horses to get there. Such a shame 
I trained with an olympic sjer for a little while...well he had all the gadgets...rapping, lead poles, electric spurs and lord help the horse if he didnt get it juuuuust right   Also knew a racehorse that had his backside set on fire with petrol..you know, to encourage him to jump out of the start gates....


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## Micropony (30 December 2016)

I am very glad that although I have been around some pretty high level jumpers I have never seen any of those practices. When you're based on a yard with liveries, some of whom are pretty knowledgeable horse people in their own right  (and I don't include myself in that) shady practices like that would become common knowledge very quickly.

No excuse for deliberate cruelty in the name of ambition, but there are probably more horses who suffer as bad or worse in the hands of well intentioned, even loving, but inexperienced leisure riders. For example are pinch boots worse than being jabbed in the mouth over every jump by a novice, or in the sides by someone riding in spurs before they have proper control of their lower leg? Have seen plenty of both of those, for sure.


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## HashRouge (30 December 2016)

Clodagh said:



			Rapping is still well used, so I hear.
		
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This is true in some respects. I could certainly name a big name British show jumper that might shock some people. But I also hope people don't assume every professional show jumper uses these methods. I worked as an SJ groom for several years, for a number of different riders, and none of those riders would have dreamed of using any of these methods. That said, working in the industry you do hear some shocking stories that you don't want to believe but kind of have to because of who you've heard them from! I've also heard things like horses being tied up all night so they can't get at their water because they've jumped a bad round, or having a leg tied up on the lorry for the same reason. Utterly bizarre to me, but then maybe I was just lucky with the riders I worked for. I mean, we turned out horses out...regularly, so perhaps we weren't normal!


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## Shadowdancing (30 December 2016)

Someone who has worked as a groom in top showjumping yards once told me I wouldn't belive what goes on behind the scenes...  chilling.


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## junglefairy (30 December 2016)

Micropony said:



			No excuse for deliberate cruelty in the name of ambition, but there are probably more horses who suffer as bad or worse in the hands of well intentioned, even loving, but inexperienced leisure riders. For example are pinch boots worse than being jabbed in the mouth over every jump by a novice, or in the sides by someone riding in spurs before they have proper control of their lower leg? Have seen plenty of both of those, for sure.
		
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I agree, although there's no excuse for deliberate cruelty. I also noticed, when watching Olympia last week, that's there's some pretty shoddy riding at the top level (legs unstable, hands not independent, jabbing in the side with spurs, hauling on mouths). Maybe I'm just getting older, but I think the quality of riding in SJ seems to be deteriorating.


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## EventingMum (30 December 2016)

Sadly, I've heard from very reliable sources about some fairly awful practices in both sj and dressage yards. I think when people are earning their living from competing and producing horses they feel some methods are a means to an end and therefore are justified. One trainer I knew constantly used false groundlines to trick horses so they would hit the fence to sharpen them up before shows - if the horses were too smart for this other more unpleasant methods were employed.


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## ElleSkywalker (30 December 2016)

I've seen a 'well respected' FBHS rapping a horse :mad3:


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## TuscanBunnyGirl (30 December 2016)

Elleskywalkingintheair said:



			I've seen a 'well respected' FBHS rapping a horse :mad3:
		
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its so bloomin disgusting grrrrr ive been unable to teach for the past 2 months due to a broken leg, spoke to one of my clients the other week about how their horse was going....she said shes been having lessons with a 'bhs instructor' and its been going really well...apparently if you pull the reins side to side in halt and walk-the horse mainly stays in an 'outline'...safe to say I'm not going back to fix a horse twice. Grrrrr  Really puts a bee in my bonnet as I teach the complete opposite. My horses won't even be 'top' horses and ill never be up there either...mainly because I dont have someone to buy me million pound horses and because welfare is so important to me. I know one of the UK top dressage rider has their horses steroid injected before theyre even being ridden properly (eg 3yr olds) so on earth is that going to make a horse last


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## sky1000 (31 December 2016)

Well I've had lots of thoughts on reading this.  I know people can't name the baddies, although I'd love to know.  But maybe they could name people who didn't do this sort of thing?  Also I thought one post was a bit hard on OP.   My main experience of people trying to get to the top has been tennis.  The mental torture some people were prepared to inflict on their children to that end was insane (literally).  And it didn't work (not that that would have justified it).


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## AShetlandBitMeOnce (31 December 2016)

HashRouge said:



			I've also heard things like horses being tied up all night so they can't get at their water because they've jumped a bad round, or having a leg tied up on the lorry for the same reason.
		
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See, this I really don't understand (not that I do any other). This is just pure, mindless anger. The horse lives in there here and now, you cannot punish them for things that they had done hours ago. They would never understand why they were being 'punished' so why do it, it won't better any future performance? Just cruel. 

I am not sure what false groundlines is, or rapping (hitting back legs as they jump?) but I don't understand any of it. My enjoyment in horses comes number 1 from the partnership, second to being the best in anything.


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## sky1000 (31 December 2016)

ASBMO I completely agree.  It can't help them achieve their goals.  Not that it would be ok if it could, but completely pointless cruelty.  I also agree that enjoyment of horses comes from the partnership.  I think rapping (from reading my pony books, particularly a Pony for Sale by DPT  - I think - I haven't checked this so could be wrong) is having two people, one at each side, suddenly raising the pole, so the poor horse, who thinks it has judged the pole right, hurts its legs on it and therefore jumps higher to make sure.


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## stencilface (31 December 2016)

Withholding water is used on  horses that are out if control full of themselves, the next day due to dehydration they will be more controllable, it's not a punishment in the same way as other methods. Still cruelty obviously!

I know a dressage person competing at a high level who's also a pony club instructor. I also know they've punished a horse after a bad session at home by cross tying it and repeatedly throwing water at its head.  What that is trying get to achieve is unfathomable


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## blitznbobs (31 December 2016)

I find it unfathomable but I'm glad to say I see things at the other end of the spectrum that also work... A few years ago I was helping a friend at a biggish dressage comp. I'd watched one of the big stars warm up and their horse was going ok. It was the horses early days of Grand Prix . The match were going in so I went to watch ... The first half of their freestyle was as you'd expect from a rider of this calibre... Complicated, technical stuff, and then something (nothing I could see obvious) spooked the horse just a half side step nothing dramatic but I watched the rider change his riding instantly. Not as I thought might happen to ' blinking we'll get on with it' but to ' ok you're stressed let's make this easy' the contact was softened and the routine basically cahnged to long sweeping half passes with no quick changes of direction ... At the time my posse and I thought he was a bit too soft... I am very happy to announce that history has deemed me oh so wrong.


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## LD&S (31 December 2016)

I know I'm really soft and a wuss but this thread has made me sob.

I really struggle to understand this level of hatred towards a horse, or any animal for that matter, that would make you want to torture it.


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## SpringArising (31 December 2016)

LD&S said:



			I know I'm really soft and a wuss but this thread has made me sob.

I really struggle to understand this level of hatred towards a horse, or any animal for that matter, that would make you want to torture it.
		
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The type of people who do this type of thing are not right in the head. 

Purposely inflicting pain or distress on any animal is totally sociopathic.


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## ester (31 December 2016)

AShetlandBitMeOnce said:



			See, this I really don't understand (not that I do any other). This is just pure, mindless anger. The horse lives in there here and now, you cannot punish them for things that they had done hours ago. They would never understand why they were being 'punished' so why do it, it won't better any future performance? Just cruel. 

I am not sure what false groundlines is, or rapping (hitting back legs as they jump?) but I don't understand any of it. My enjoyment in horses comes number 1 from the partnership, second to being the best in anything.
		
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Just to inform a false ground line would be one put under the top rail so the horse gets too close and bashes itself
rapping, front or back, depends on the horse.

As anything when you are talking big money or even just your source of income partnership isn't always on the top of the list.


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## rachk89 (31 December 2016)

I hate to imagine what would happen to my horse if he was owned by these people. He could be talented in jumping but while he can jump high he is not overly neat with his front legs and hits them off the poles a lot. I wouldn't dream of putting pinch boots on him to make him pick up his legs. The pro showjumper that did jump him said its not a big issue and he would eventually learn. He hasn't jumped a lot but the few times he has he is better and he managed to bounce through a set of raised poles without knocking any of them so he is getting more coordinated. But I left him to grow I didn't force results. 

I think itshorrible to see the young horses being over worked when they haven't developed fully. Mine is still growing and he is 7. How broken would he be by 10 if pushed too much at a young age?


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## Cortez (31 December 2016)

SpringArising said:



			The type of people who do this type of thing are not right in the head. 

Purposely inflicting pain or distress on any animal is totally sociopathic.
		
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Purposely OR not (and I believe most cruelty is inflicted through a lovely combination of ignorance and laziness), there's too much of it about.


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## popsdosh (31 December 2016)

SpringArising said:



			The type of people who do this type of thing are not right in the head. 

Purposely inflicting pain or distress on any animal is totally sociopathic.
		
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The word torture makes this subject emotive a lot of things some think should not happen are used by some who understand what they are doing without being detrimental to the horse. It does not make it acceptable for inexperienced hands and to be honest there is nothing to be gained by frightening a horse. I would be interested in knowing how many condenming them actually know the theory behind 'pinch  boots' and whether they actually inflict pain or work in a more subtle way.
Where do you stand on riding a horse as to some that would seem just as bad and may describe that as torture, Just riding a horse is alien to them and causes them injury which would not happen in their natural state.


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## junglefairy (31 December 2016)

popsdosh said:



			The word torture makes this subject emotive a lot of things some think should not happen are used by some who understand what they are doing without being detrimental to the horse. It does not make it acceptable for inexperienced hands and to be honest there is nothing to be gained by frightening a horse. I would be interested in knowing how many condenming them actually know the theory behind 'pinch  boots' and whether they actually inflict pain or work in a more subtle way.
Where do you stand on riding a horse as to some that would seem just as bad and may describe that as torture, Just riding a horse is alien to them and causes them injury which would not happen in their natural state.
		
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I'll hold my hands up and admit my understanding of pinch boots is limited more or less to the description provided by another poster earlier on this thread. Please do enlighten us if there's more to add.

As an additional comment, just because someone does something "professionally" does not mean they do it expertly or with due care and consideration.


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## stencilface (31 December 2016)

I'll be honest, I never had too much issue with pinch boots, no worse than a strong bit, only on the back legs and on for minimal time to have the most effect.


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## amandaco2 (31 December 2016)

I've not seen many sj yards but seen one where they clearly adored the horses, never saw anything untoward....another yard where I could imagine rapping and so on being used.....
Outdated and deliberately nasty...a novice rider accidentally catching a horses mouth is just that -accidental. Rapping and so on is a premeditated act of causing pain to the horse.


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## Ceifer (1 January 2017)

Years ago I walked out of a job on a showjumping yard when the guy running it wanted to rap his horse (is that even the right way to say it?!) 

Told him to stick his £6.00 an hour I didn't need it. Then survived the winter eating beans on toast but at least I kept my morals


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## popsdosh (2 January 2017)

skewbaldmillie said:



			[Content removed]
		
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I wouldnt make comments like that if I was you ,you should not name people in that way.


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## rachk89 (2 January 2017)

popsdosh said:



			I wouldnt make comments like that if I was you ,you should not name people in that way.
		
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Agreed although with what said rider has done in the past its not at all surprising and there's probably many who won't work with her now.


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## sport horse (2 January 2017)

There is one common denominator on here and that is that most of the posters are not show Jumpers or indeed dressage riders or eventers!

Can I suggest that the average amateur riders lack of proper riding ability is actually also cruel - the lack of a good seat meaning that their balance is all over the place thus twisting their horses back, also meaning that their hands cannot stay still so that their horses's mouth is compromised, the lack of ability to keep a good canter rhythm to a fence and keep their lower leg 'on' the  horse, their lack of ability to go with the horse over the jump and so catch it in the mouth with their hands and be behind the movement on landing. I could go on for hours!

I have seen far more cruelty (should I substitute 'torture' here?) across the board at the bottom end of the riding network than from the professionals - yes of course there are always those who try to take short cuts and there is no excuse for them but there is also no excuse for not learning to ride properly.


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## Cortez (2 January 2017)

Cortez said:



			Purposely OR not (and I believe most cruelty is inflicted through a lovely combination of ignorance and laziness), there's too much of it about.
		
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Already said this ^^


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## ester (2 January 2017)

The difference is intentionality. Might not make it ok but still the difference.


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## popsdosh (2 January 2017)

ester said:



			The difference is intentionality. Might not make it ok but still the difference.
		
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See this is the issue I have with this thread .Because a showjumper does it it is torture!!!! Where is the line drawn as some of these techniques are no more than extensions of what has happened from year dot with horses.  Any form of aid used when riding is designed to cause a degree of discomfort to the horse to help it comply with what we require it to do and all of them are wrong if used in the wrong way unintentional can apply just the same to some of these so called 'Torture ' techniques as for a muppet riding in a poor way. I can think of occassions when any boots put on badly by an inexperienced rider are likely to do a lot more harm than pinch boots ever would with an experienced trainer yet one is ok because of ignorance. Since when has ignorance been a defence for abuse!


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## ester (2 January 2017)

It hasn't, neither has money.

I don't think either are right or ok or any more wrong than the other, but I also never think that other bad stuff happening precludes the discussion of specifics elsewhere.


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## Sukistokes2 (2 January 2017)

Us dear old amateur rides could ride in the most shocking and cruel way, how would we really know , we lack the ability (according to some) to tell or we are too lazy to do anything about it! On top of that we are taught by people who know nothing.  However, if we are indeed that bad, that ignorant and that unbalanced, the truth of the matter is , even if we cruely attempt to jump our poor long suffering horses it's bound to be very low , very intermittent and unlikely to cause the pain and sufferering a " professional " or a " would be professional " could inflict  over an extend period training for the show ring. I prefer to believe that most people, professional or amateur get in to horses because they have a passion for the animal. They strive to be the best they can within their ability. I am a weekend rider, even after forty years I know where my ability is and where my strengths and weaknesses lay, I do strive to be the best I can within my limited talent and limited time and I choose to belive that my animals are not too cruelly ridden. I chose to believe that most people are about the same. However I also acknowledge that there are people out there for who the winning is more important then the welfare of the animal. I include in that so called amateurs and so called professionals. Also I include those who are prepared to take short cuts, rather then using appropriate training methods. I also believe that it's important not to Tar everyone with the same brush be they professional or amateur .


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## FfionWinnie (2 January 2017)

Disappointing how novice riders learning to ride is comparable to some to top riders deliberately inflicting pain on a horse.


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## Drzoidberg2 (2 January 2017)

I think there's a huge difference between someone unintentionally causing pain in the process of learning to better the horses experience as well as their own, and someone intentionally causing pain or discomfort in the process of earning money...


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## popsdosh (2 January 2017)

ester said:



			It hasn't, neither has money.

I don't think either are right or ok or any more wrong than the other, but I also never think that other bad stuff happening precludes the discussion of specifics elsewhere.
		
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Im not condoning anything but im not sure money is the driver for this either. In my experience most of these schooling methods get out of hand when the inexperienced people start using them as a short cut  because they have seen a pro use them to correct an issue in a horse . To me having seen Rapping( not as its portrayed) used by some very experienced household names back in the past in controlled settings it is no worse than dressage riders schooling with long whips its all in the degree and to be frank the lower down the tree of experience you go riders do not understand the subtleties that are involved and thats when it becomes abuse to me.


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## popsdosh (2 January 2017)

Drzoidberg2 said:



			I think there's a huge difference between someone unintentionally causing pain in the process of learning to better the horses experience as well as their own, and someone intentionally causing pain or discomfort in the process of earning money...
		
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Surely pain is pain and neither is acceptable!


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## popsdosh (2 January 2017)

FfionWinnie said:



			Disappointing how novice riders learning to ride is comparable to some to top riders deliberately inflicting pain on a horse.
		
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Im not condoning it but where do you draw the line neither should be acceptable ! Just because somebody is a novice rider does not make it ok. We have all seen it thats why I would rather come back as a showjumping horse than in a riding school!


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## Drzoidberg2 (2 January 2017)

Absolutely but learning to ride is about improving the process for both horse and rider, so the reason pain or discomfort is caused goes away as the rider learns to be more correct. Also, a rider learning to ride under correct supervision will in my opinion cause a lot less damage than methods that force a horse to lift its legs or carry it's head in a certain position.

As a horse trained using methods such as rapping/ pinch boots or rollkur in dressage progress, the results desired increase so the "training" increases... It's a vicious circle, not comparable to a rider learning to ride under supervision.


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## popsdosh (2 January 2017)

Drzoidberg2 said:



			Absolutely but learning to ride is about improving the process for both horse and rider, so the reason pain or discomfort is caused goes away as the rider learns to be more correct. Also, a rider learning to ride under correct supervision will in my opinion cause a lot less damage than methods that force a horse to lift its legs or carry it's head in a certain position.

As a horse trained using methods such as rapping/ pinch boots or rollkur in dressage progress, the results desired increase so the "training" increases... It's a vicious circle, not comparable to a rider learning to ride under supervision.
		
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So what do pinch boots do ?  I would suggest badly fitted boots of any sort will do more damage to the horse!


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## Goldenstar (2 January 2017)

Drzoidberg2 said:



			I think there's a huge difference between someone unintentionally causing pain in the process of learning to better the horses experience as well as their own, and someone intentionally causing pain or discomfort in the process of earning money...
		
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Not to the horse there isn't .


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## FfionWinnie (2 January 2017)

popsdosh said:



			Im not condoning it but where do you draw the line neither should be acceptable ! Just because somebody is a novice rider does not make it ok. We have all seen it thats why I would rather come back as a showjumping horse than in a riding school!
		
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I didn't say being a novice rider makes it ok but it's not a comparable situation. The novice rider will indeed make the life of the horse they are riding perhaps less than perfect for the first few lessons in each pace but it's up to the professional - the instructor, to minimise the effect of the novice rider on the horse. 

For instance my daughter is 7 and has just been given an absolutely superstar eventing pony. He often takes a stride out and will clear everything by miles, no pinch boots needed!  Initially she got left behind on nearly every fence. 

I could have continued allowing her to sock him in the chops, being as she is 7 and a tiny skinny thing and he is 14.1 it's debatable if he even noticed. Or I could as I did do get her to hold the neck strap, got some elastic rein inserts and  most importantly paid a large amount in tuition to a very good SJ coach for lots of lessons to train the problem away. So the getting left behind part of their relationship lasted a very short time. 

That scenario is not comparable to me buying her a pony with a lazy hind end and me deliberately inducing pain or fear to the pony to get it jumping cleanly when I could instead train it. 

I earn my living as an animal trainer, I don't need to be a top show jumper to understand the learning process for a horse. 

In my experience short cuts don't work - they might work for some animals some of the time -usually a short time.  However, if you want to turn out every animal you train to the highest standard it can achieve, then you need to put in the hours of training.  Things like I mentioned in the title need expert timing and knowledge. Being a top show jumper does not mean you necessarily have that expert knowledge and plenty of horses will suffer rather than learn the desired outcome. 

Lastly I am sure if we could ask him, my horse would chose his new life over his old life, even if I do get left behind now and again!


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## Cortez (2 January 2017)

Drzoidberg2 said:



			I think there's a huge difference between someone unintentionally causing pain in the process of learning to better the horses experience as well as their own, and someone intentionally causing pain or discomfort in the process of earning money...
		
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I doubt the horse sees the difference!


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## FfionWinnie (2 January 2017)

Cortez said:



			I doubt the horse sees the difference!
		
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If you stood on my foot accidentally I'd see it in a different light to you stamping on me deliberately.


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## Cortez (2 January 2017)

FfionWinnie said:



			If you stood on my foot accidentally I'd see it in a different light to you stamping on me deliberately.
		
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Not if you were a horse you wouldn't.


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## popsdosh (2 January 2017)

As an animal trainer I guess you use many techniques as many do and my argument would be that some have been given a bad name by their misuse however that does not stop them being a useful tool in the right circumstances and used in a non abusive way. People over the years hear the horror stories and think they are the norm! For example I have seen Rapping used in a way that no one could feel was abusive and it did what it set out to achieve, but I guess today you would send me to the tower for having witnessed it,however I will not accept abuse of any animal the abuse comes from the person using it not the technique per se!


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## Goldenstar (2 January 2017)

FfionWinnie said:



			If you stood on my foot accidentally I'd see it in a different light to you stamping on me deliberately.
		
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You are a human a horse is a horse .
They don't reason like we do .


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## FfionWinnie (2 January 2017)

I'm quite aware horses don't think like humans do. 

However the point of this thread is that as the thinking humans it's up to us to ensure the horse doesn't get stamped on deliberately and that the accidental standing on is at a minimum with an eye to improving the rider at all times.


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## RunToEarth (2 January 2017)

FfionWinnie said:



			I'm quite aware horses don't think like humans do. 

However the point of this thread is that as the thinking humans it's up to us to ensure the horse doesn't get stamped on deliberately and that the accidental standing on is at a minimum with an eye to improving the rider at all times.
		
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But in reality? You will see far more awful riding in the lower levels of equine sports- some have very very little desire to improve. Riders of 20+stone riding regularly with a complete disregard to the pain they are inflicting. Those children in the pony jump off at Olympia were almost all displaying dreadful riding. 

It is no better or worse than people using pinch boots or any other method.


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## Drzoidberg2 (2 January 2017)

popsdosh said:



			As an animal trainer I guess you use many techniques as many do and my argument would be that some have been given a bad name by their misuse however that does not stop them being a useful tool in the right circumstances and used in a non abusive way. People over the years hear the horror stories and think they are the norm! For example I have seen Rapping used in a way that no one could feel was abusive and it did what it set out to achieve, but I guess today you would send me to the tower for having witnessed it,however I will not accept abuse of any animal the abuse comes from the person using it not the technique per se!
		
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But often techniques that achieve results get misused to achieve more desirable results. I'll be honest I only have a passing connection with the showjumping world, but I fail to see how intentionally setting a horse up to hit a pole is an ethical training method. I may be oversimplifying as I've only had a fleeting dip into the world and decided I didn't like what I saw so left, and later did the same when my chosen part of the industry started to leave a bad taste in my mouth for similar reasons, so I'm obviously sensitive to intentionally causing pain.

But I'm now one of these amature horse owners, and my horse doesn't ever wear tack designed to cause pain, and is never forced to go a certain way. To my mind that is kinder. We will never ever do a grand prix dressage test or jump 1:40 but I feel it's a kinder partnership, even if I occasionally kick her on the bum getting on or go out of balance for a few strides. She's never set up to hurt herself or forced to wear tack that causes pain, that's the difference in my mind.


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## Goldenstar (2 January 2017)

FfionWinnie said:



			I'm quite aware horses don't think like humans do. 

However the point of this thread is that as the thinking humans it's up to us to ensure the horse doesn't get stamped on deliberately and that the accidental standing on is at a minimum with an eye to improving the rider at all times.
		
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The fact still remains the horse being badly ridden by an insenestive novice feels pain and is effected by the pain in exactly the same way as the horse being ridden in pinch Boots .


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## rachk89 (2 January 2017)

Goldenstar said:



			The fact still remains the horse being badly ridden by an insenestive novice feels pain and is effected by the pain in exactly the same way as the horse being ridden in pinch Boots .
		
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So basically no one should ever start riding ever again? And no one should ever ride again?

I mean every person who rides makes mistakes. Someone who says they don't is a liar. So we are all causing our horses pain and should stop. Someone above admitted that they can go out of balance on their horse at times which will cause him pain. We have all seen pictures of people on here jumping and getting it wrong so they have pulled the horses mouth. Should they never ride again?

Ffionwinnies point is we learn from our mistakes. Those riders using gadgets don't. They continue to cause the horse pain deliberately. They continue to put things onto the horse that will knowingly hurt it. Us novice riders make mistakes yes but we try to correct them and make sure we don't do them again.


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## ester (2 January 2017)

popsdosh said:



			Im not condoning anything but im not sure money is the driver for this either. In my experience most of these schooling methods get out of hand when the inexperienced people start using them as a short cut  because they have seen a pro use them to correct an issue in a horse . To me having seen Rapping( not as its portrayed) used by some very experienced household names back in the past in controlled settings it is no worse than dressage riders schooling with long whips its all in the degree and to be frank the lower down the tree of experience you go riders do not understand the subtleties that are involved and thats when it becomes abuse to me.
		
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How is money not the driver when the aim of the pros/experienced household names using them is either to win more classes or sell the horse for more money? What other advantage is there of doing it?

Again as always I don't see why one bad thing means another bad thing cannot be discussed or are we back to the age old well you aren't pros/experienced enough so you cannot possibly judge a pro thing?


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## Goldenstar (2 January 2017)

rachk89 said:



			So basically no one should ever start riding ever again? And no one should ever ride again?

I mean every person who rides makes mistakes. Someone who says they don't is a liar. So we are all causing our horses pain and should stop. Someone above admitted that they can go out of balance on their horse at times which will cause him pain. We have all seen pictures of people on here jumping and getting it wrong so they have pulled the horses mouth. Should they never ride again?



Ffionwinnies point is we learn from our mistakes. Those riders using gadgets don't. They continue to cause the horse pain deliberately. They continue to put things onto the horse that will knowingly hurt it. Us novice riders make mistakes yes but we try to correct them and make sure we don't do them again.
		
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Don't put stupid words in my mouth .
BTW How do you know people who do these silly foolish things to attempt to make horses careful don't learn the error of their ways .
I will repeat over and over again pain is pain to the horse it makes no difference to the horse what intent the rider has .


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## FfionWinnie (2 January 2017)

Goldenstar said:



			The fact still remains the horse being badly ridden by an insenestive novice feels pain and is effected by the pain in exactly the same way as the horse being ridden in pinch Boots .
		
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Well if you want to look at it like that the pinch boot using pro at one time was the novice and unintentionally inflicted pain at that time however now is doing so deliberately so they are still worse than the novice who does it at one time unintentionally while they learn.


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## popsdosh (2 January 2017)

ester said:



			How is money not the driver when the aim of the pros/experienced household names using them is either to win more classes or sell the horse for more money? What other advantage is there of doing it?
		
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Well if thats the case why are riders at the lower levels trying to use the same techniques? 

And its ok judging everybody else as long as you are armed with the true facts. IE pinch boots do not cause pain! Otherwise nobody would ever put boots on a horse as they work in exactly the same way as any boot which will bring about a subtle change in gait. Weve all seen a horse with boots on for the first time and its reaction it is no different. If you used pinch boots all the time you would lose that effect. The old way used in Eventing was to just tighten up the boots before going in.


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## popsdosh (2 January 2017)

FfionWinnie said:



			Well if you want to look at it like that the pinch boot using pro at one time was the novice and unintentionally inflicted pain at that time however now is doing so deliberately so they are still worse than the novice who does it at one time unintentionally while they learn.
		
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Its your perception they cause pain! 
Pinch boots are not intended to inflict pain where do you get that from. most horses ive come across can have a fairly violent reaction to pain .


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## Goldenstar (2 January 2017)

FfionWinnie said:



			Well if you want to look at it like that the pinch boot using pro at one time was the novice and unintentionally inflicted pain at that time however now is doing so deliberately so they are still worse than the novice who does it at one time unintentionally while they learn.
		
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They are not worse to the horse .
I would not let someone rap my horse and I would not let lots of the riders I see hacking about on his back either neither would be ethically acceptable to me .


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## rachk89 (2 January 2017)

Goldenstar said:



			Don't put stupid words in my mouth .
BTW How do you know people who do these silly foolish things to attempt to make horses careful don't learn the error of their ways .
I will repeat over and over again pain is pain to the horse it makes no difference to the horse what intent the rider has .
		
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How are they stupid words? Please explain how a novice rider is meant to learn everything about horse riding without making a mistake and hurting the horse? Do you never make mistakes? I doubt it.

Pain is pain yes but there is a difference between knowingly causing it and unknowingly causing it. When you are knowingly causing an animal pain and don't care you are cruel no matter what your intentions. You are not fixing a problem. You are causing one.

I don't know if they learn the error of their ways. I don't know all of these people personally or follow their lives. If they do great. If they don't that's a problem.


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## popsdosh (2 January 2017)

rachk89 said:



			How are they stupid words? Please explain how a novice rider is meant to learn everything about horse riding without making a mistake and hurting the horse? Do you never make mistakes? I doubt it.

Pain is pain yes but there is a difference between knowingly causing it and unknowingly causing it. When you are knowingly causing an animal pain and don't care you are cruel no matter what your intentions. You are not fixing a problem. You are causing one.

I don't know if they learn the error of their ways. I don't know all of these people personally or follow their lives. If they do great. If they don't that's a problem.
		
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So you are accepting that if a novice rider can cause pain ,they knowingly are no better than somebody more experienced using training aids


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## ester (2 January 2017)

popsdosh said:



			Well if thats the case why are riders at the lower levels trying to use the same techniques?
		
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Because they presume that if the pros are using gadgets, gadgets must be the only way to success because they presume pros are using them for a reason. Success is success at whatever level and will still give you that 'boost' which is just hormones and neurotransmitters . The fact that pros use such techniques just normalises it as the thing to do and you can see what effect normalisation has in sports with mass drug cheating problems.

But surely you cannot deny that the pros that are doing it are doing it for money? The non pros are doing it out of ignorance. I don't see that either is better or worse than the other.


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## Cortez (2 January 2017)

rachk89 said:



			How are they stupid words? Please explain how a novice rider is meant to learn everything about horse riding without making a mistake and hurting the horse? Do you never make mistakes? I doubt it.

Pain is pain yes but there is a difference between knowingly causing it and unknowingly causing it. When you are knowingly causing an animal pain and don't care you are cruel no matter what your intentions. You are not fixing a problem. You are causing one.

I don't know if they learn the error of their ways. I don't know all of these people personally or follow their lives. If they do great. If they don't that's a problem.
		
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They are stupid words because that is NOT what GS is saying. It is perfectly feasable to learn to ride PROPERLY, without causing distress to horses on a continual basis. No one can say they haven't given the occassional poke or inconvenience, but that is very different to habitually riding in ill fitting or inapropriate tack, to riding  when overweight or very unbalanced, to hauling on the reins, etc. THAT is ignorance, and it can be just as cruel as inflicting pain deliberatly.


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## rachk89 (2 January 2017)

popsdosh said:



			So you are accepting that if a novice rider can cause pain ,they knowingly are no better than somebody more experienced using training aids
		
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No because how can they know? They are learning they don't know what they are doing is wrong. You can't expect them to know everything straight away. I would however expect a professional to know that rapping is cruel. I wouldn't expect a novice person to be able to do sitting trot perfectly straight away because they can't. They will bounce around. You teach them how not to.


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## fburton (2 January 2017)

Elleskywalkingintheair said:



			I've seen a 'well respected' FBHS rapping a horse :mad3:
		
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Doesn't the BHS have a guiding principle that would prohibit this sort of thing (probably not as strong as the Oath that vets take but similar in intent)? If not, should they?


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## rachk89 (2 January 2017)

Cortez said:



			They are stupid words because that is NOT what GS is saying. It is perfectly feasable to learn to ride PROPERLY, without causing distress to horses on a continual basis. No one can say they haven't given the occassional poke or inconvenience, but that is very different to habitually riding in ill fitting or inapropriate tack, to riding  when overweight or very unbalanced, to hauling on the reins, etc. THAT is ignorance, and it can be just as cruel as inflicting pain deliberatly.
		
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And a novice rider wouldn't know that if they aren't taught would they? Do you expect them to know how to fit tack? If they are taught correctly then they will cause the horse no pain through learning. But otherwise it is unknowingly causing psin. Its still not fine but they do need to be taught what to do.


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## ester (2 January 2017)

Interstingly the minutes from this IEOC meeting suggest a study was being done to determine if pinch boots were 'abuse of the horse' I wonder what the results were.

http://www.ieoc.info/sites/default/files/IEOC-Minutes-Badminton-2013.pdf


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## popsdosh (2 January 2017)

fburton said:



			Doesn't the BHS have a guiding principle that would prohibit this sort of thing (probably not as strong as the Oath that vets take but similar in intent)? If not, should they?
		
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I am not aware that in general Rapping is banned ,I know the disciplines dont allow it in warm up . I think it can only be dealt with under animal welfare laws and to be frank there are so many different degrees I dont see it could be.

I want to make it very clear I dont condone it but have seen it done where the horse was not even aware of what was happening it was that skillfully done. I suppose if it is banned maybe so should all riders whose horses have cricket scores SJ. However an experienced trainer would only ever use the technique with a horse that is naturally careful as thats the only one you will influence to improve its technique

I


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## popsdosh (2 January 2017)

ester said:



			Interstingly the minutes from this IEOC meeting suggest a study was being done to determine if pinch boots were 'abuse of the horse' I wonder what the results were.

http://www.ieoc.info/sites/default/files/IEOC-Minutes-Badminton-2013.pdf

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Logic says they were not an issue otherwise they would have been banned by now which maybe proves a point after all they banned weighted boots that worked in a similar manner. It may however be to do with interpretation because a layman would find it very difficult to distinguish between them and standard fetlock boots .


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## ester (2 January 2017)

I think there are two issues really, the latter might be more relevant to weighted boots but both are important for sport, abuse of the horse and 'performance enhancement' therefore making the competition unfair. It was interesting to read quote from what some of the pros thought anyway!

I'm not sure my logic says that, my logic would say only one lot of research, probably low number of horses etc might not have been enough to draw sufficient conclusions . There are a couple of papers about (most include weighted too) but nothing I have access to.


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## stencilface (2 January 2017)

You can't even really get or wear pinch boots now, the only ones available on sale are not much different from normal boots.


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## Goldenstar (2 January 2017)

rachk89 said:



			No because how can they know? They are learning they don't know what they are doing is wrong. You can't expect them to know everything straight away. I would however expect a professional to know that rapping is cruel. I wouldn't expect a novice person to be able to do sitting trot perfectly straight away because they can't. They will bounce around. You teach them how not to.
		
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But it's all irrelevant for the horse on the receiving end of the treatment .
the horse doesn't care what the person thinks only what they do .


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## RunToEarth (2 January 2017)

rachk89 said:



			And a novice rider wouldn't know that if they aren't taught would they? Do you expect them to know how to fit tack? If they are taught correctly then they will cause the horse no pain through learning. But otherwise it is unknowingly causing psin. Its still not fine but they do need to be taught what to do.
		
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There are a lot of novice owners out there who know full well their saddle is not a good fit, but aren't prepared to put up the cash to sort it out. Go down to your local unaff. Sj circuit and look at the amount of horses in ill fitting tack/boots/complete with overweight jockeys - it's not that they're all unaware, they are just choosing to be ignorant, and in my mind that is deliberate.  I told a teenager last week out hunting that her saddle was too big for her horse - she knew, she was getting a new one for her birthday in May...


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## popsdosh (2 January 2017)

This is an explanation of how the different boots work.

http://kentauraustralia.com/how-and-when-to-use-performance-enhancing-boots


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## junglefairy (2 January 2017)

RunToEarth said:



			There are a lot of novice owners out there who know full well their saddle is not a good fit, but aren't prepared to put up the cash to sort it out. Go down to your local unaff. Sj circuit and look at the amount of horses in ill fitting tack/boots/complete with overweight jockeys - it's not that they're all unaware, they are just choosing to be ignorant, and in my mind that is deliberate.  I told a teenager last week out hunting that her saddle was too big for her horse - she knew, she was getting a new one for her birthday in May...
		
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You see the exact same thing at affiliated events! I don't know any professional SJ producers that have a saddle fitted for each horse, they'll have a few saddles and make adjustments with pads/thick wool numnahs etc.


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## fburton (2 January 2017)

popsdosh said:



			I want to make it very clear I dont condone it but have seen it done where the horse was not even aware of what was happening it was that skillfully done.
		
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The fact that the horse changed its behaviour (presumably) must mean the treatment impinged at some level and I can quite imagine that it may have _seemed_ the horse wasn't aware of what was happening - but _knowing_ that this was the case is another matter entirely (imo)!


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## fburton (2 January 2017)

Goldenstar said:



			But it's all irrelevant for the horse on the receiving end of the treatment .
the horse doesn't care what the person thinks only what they do .
		
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Nevertheless, an action may be abuse in one case and not in another - even if it was the same action in both cases.


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## Cortez (2 January 2017)

fburton said:



			Nevertheless, an action may be abuse in one case and not in another - even if it was the same action in both cases.
		
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Don't agree. It may not be DELIBERATE abuse, but still it still occurs.


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## Micropony (2 January 2017)

junglefairy said:



			You see the exact same thing at affiliated events! I don't know any professional SJ producers that have a saddle fitted for each horse, they'll have a few saddles and make adjustments with pads/thick wool numnahs etc.
		
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There is a difference between an experienced horseman who knows when a saddle fits and when it doesn't making adjustments with padding from one horse to another, and an inexperienced nitwit who either doesn't know or doesn't care about the damage she could be doing. I know people with more horses than saddles, but they have the nous and experience to recognise when a saddle is causing a problem and know what to do about it. Someone like me, on the other hand, who lacks the experience or confidence in my own judgement to know whether the issue is the saddle or my riding, needs to have the saddler out every 3 months or so to make sure things are as they should be.

None of this excuses anyone employing unethical training methods, of course it doesn't, but these things aren't black and white. Most of us keep horses because we want to ride them, and if our riding and horsemanship isn't perfect, however good our intentions are, and however hard we are trying to learn and improve, that can have welfare implications for the horse. If you're vaguely ethical and responsible, which I imagine most users of this forum consider themselves to be, you try incredibly hard to minimise those impacts, and hopefully succeed most of the time.

I have always tried to do my sincere best for and with my horses, but on the occasions I have got it wrong, the horse neither knew nor cared whether it was through a well intentioned mistake or deliberate cruelty, he just knew things were not pleasing to him.


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## popsdosh (2 January 2017)

fburton said:



			The fact that the horse changed its behaviour (presumably) must mean the treatment impinged at some level and I can quite imagine that it may have _seemed_ the horse wasn't aware of what was happening - but _knowing_ that this was the case is another matter entirely (imo)!
		
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Maybe it looks prettier to you if a horse learns the same lesson in the ring crashing its legs at a fence which we see all to often.I suppose its down to your perception of what rapping entails or whether you just assume however it is carried out its bad. Have you ever seen it done as that is the only true thing you can base your comments on! Like a lot of things done properly it is a stress free training aid (less stressful than knocking poles out) Done by the wrong person in the wrong way it is not acceptable and I would be the first person to sort them out!


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## ester (2 January 2017)

Surely it is the difference between the jump being the jump and if the horse doesn't jump high enough or opts to stop regardless of the reason, then the horse acted based on what the jump was. 
If you are rapping you are moving the goal posts for the horse, the jump isn't actually the jump. Horse assesses jump, decides which action to take (jump or stop) could quite possibly have assessed totally accurately the height to jump but bashes it because the jump has been changed.


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## Shadowdancing (2 January 2017)

Woah. If it's taking that sort of training to get a horse to 'jump correctly' maybe its time to accept that the horse is actually not a jumper and should be redirected to another discipline. Sounds horrendous!


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## popsdosh (2 January 2017)

ester said:



			Surely it is the difference between the jump being the jump and if the horse doesn't jump high enough or opts to stop regardless of the reason, then the horse acted based on what the jump was. 
If you are rapping you are moving the goal posts for the horse, the jump isn't actually the jump. Horse assesses jump, decides which action to take (jump or stop) could quite possibly have assessed totally accurately the height to jump but bashes it because the jump has been changed.
		
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I think you will find you have a different idea of rapping to what I have which is the point I am trying to make. As I have seen it done there is no bashing anything just a rubbing sensation for the horse no different to a dressage rider using a schooling whip to encourage a movement. As I say it does not help ungenuine horses at all and actually works best with naturally careful jumpers to help them improve their technique over a fence.


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## ester (2 January 2017)

I'd happily substitute bashing for rubbing or any sort of word you would like to use for contact in my post, the point about changing the goalposts stands regardless of the resulting pressure detected by the horse.


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## popsdosh (2 January 2017)

ester said:



			I'd happily substitute bashing for rubbing or any sort of word you would like to use for contact in my post, the point about changing the goalposts stands regardless of the resulting pressure detected by the horse.
		
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Ive never seen the height of the fence change!


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## Micropony (2 January 2017)

popsdosh said:



			Ive never seen the height of the fence change!
		
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I thought I knew what rapping was, now I think I need to ask for an explanation. 

I thought it was where people held each end of the pole and raised it as the horse jumps the fence so that the horse hits it. Can't figure out how that would be done without changing the height of the fence, so I must have got it wrong?


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## fburton (2 January 2017)

Cortez said:



			Don't agree. It may not be DELIBERATE abuse, but still it still occurs.
		
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We may be at cross-purposes here? My point was that an action may be abuse in one context but not in another.


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## YorksG (2 January 2017)

The thing that stands out for me in this thread is the way that supporters of the methods of training in the thread tittle, seem to be saying that because pain can be inflicted in all sorts of ways, it makes it acceptable for pain/discomfort to be inflicted by the above methods. There also seems to be the suggestion that if "professional" producers/riders cause the pain/discomfort that too is more acceptable than if caused by "leisure" riders. That all appears a little odd to me.


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## FfionWinnie (2 January 2017)

popsdosh said:



			I think you will find you have a different idea of rapping to what I have which is the point I am trying to make. As I have seen it done there is no bashing anything just a rubbing sensation for the horse no different to a dressage rider using a schooling whip to encourage a movement. As I say it does not help ungenuine horses at all and actually works best with naturally careful jumpers to help them improve their technique over a fence.
		
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The word is *rapping* it's not rubbing or giving it a cosy. It's done with a cane and the horses legs are hit as it goes over the jump.  The definition of rap is a strike, sharp blow, smack. It doesn't mean rub, however you want to "wrap" it up.


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## Goldenstar (2 January 2017)

FestiveG said:



			The thing that stands out for me in this thread is the way that supporters of the methods of training in the thread tittle, seem to be saying that because pain can be inflicted in all sorts of ways, it makes it acceptable for pain/discomfort to be inflicted by the above methods. There also seems to be the suggestion that if "professional" producers/riders cause the pain/discomfort that too is more acceptable than if caused by "leisure" riders. That all appears a little odd to me.
		
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Not sure what thread your reading .
No one on here has supported these methods of training .


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## fburton (2 January 2017)

FfionWinnie said:



			The word is *rapping* it's not rubbing or giving it a cosy. It's done with a cane and the horses legs are hit as it goes over the jump.  The definition of rap is a strike, sharp blow, smack. It doesn't mean rub, however you want to "wrap" it up.
		
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Ah, so different from 'poling' where the pole is lifted at the last moment deliberately to cause the horse to hit itself?

(See, e.g. http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?221416-Poling-(not-Rapping!)-the-show-jumper)


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## FfionWinnie (2 January 2017)

fburton said:



			Ah, so different from 'poling' where the pole is lifted at the last moment deliberately to cause the horse to hit itself?
		
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I've never heard of that.


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## Goldenstar (2 January 2017)

popsdosh said:



			I think you will find you have a different idea of rapping to what I have which is the point I am trying to make. As I have seen it done there is no bashing anything just a rubbing sensation for the horse no different to a dressage rider using a schooling whip to encourage a movement. As I say it does not help ungenuine horses at all and actually works best with naturally careful jumpers to help them improve their technique over a fence.
		
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I don't really think you even seen rapping it's not a rubbing senesation you can not rub the legs of a horse as it goes over a fence .
It's called rapping for a reason that is what it sounds like when I saw it done it was done with an alluminium pole .
It's not nice and it's not fair and it does not work .


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## rachk89 (2 January 2017)

Goldenstar said:



			Not sure what thread your reading .
No one on here has supported these methods of training .
		
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Popsdosh is. They think pinch boots and rapping is fine.


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## twiggy2 (2 January 2017)

fburton said:



			Ah, so different from 'poling' where the pole is lifted at the last moment deliberately to cause the horse to hit itself?

(See, e.g. http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?221416-Poling-(not-Rapping!)-the-show-jumper)
		
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Same thing just using a different item to strike / rap the horses legs with.


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## gunnergundog (2 January 2017)

FfionWinnie said:



			The word is *rapping* it's not rubbing or giving it a cosy. It's done with a cane and the horses legs are hit .
		
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So do you differentiate between rapping with a cane over a jump and the work that Mandolo Mendez (amongst many others) will do with a bamboo cane and a horse in hand in order to establish straightness/forwardness or whatever or what the dressage peeps do to enhance piaffe?

Surely, it's just a matter of degree?  If the hind limbs aren't elevated sufficiently in piaffe in response to the touch then the force behind the touch increases in order to stimulate a reaction.


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## ester (2 January 2017)

FfionWinnie said:



			The word is *rapping* it's not rubbing or giving it a cosy. It's done with a cane and the horses legs are hit as it goes over the jump.  The definition of rap is a strike, sharp blow, smack. It doesn't mean rub, however you want to "wrap" it up.
		
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I guess popsdosh uses some dead sheep then??!


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## twiggy2 (2 January 2017)

gunnergundog said:



			So do you differentiate between rapping with a cane over a jump and the work that Mandolo Mendez (amongst many others) will do with a bamboo cane and a horse in hand in order to establish straightness/forwardness or whatever or what the dressage peeps do to enhance piaffe?

Surely, it's just a matter of degree?  If the hind limbs aren't elevated sufficiently in piaffe in response to the touch then the force behind the touch increases in order to stimulate a reaction.
		
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The issue for me is that using a cane (or similar) to encourage a horse in ground work is more controlled (not that I do it) and the handler can control the level of contact. When lifting an item for a horse to strike when the horse is moving towards it at speed, with power removes a large element of control, also the horse when jumping is already trying and being penalised for not succeeding.


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## FfionWinnie (2 January 2017)

gunnergundog said:



			So do you differentiate between rapping with a cane over a jump and the work that Mandolo Mendez (amongst many others) will do with a bamboo cane and a horse in hand in order to establish straightness/forwardness or whatever or what the dressage peeps do to enhance piaffe?

Surely, it's just a matter of degree?  If the hind limbs aren't elevated sufficiently in piaffe in response to the touch then the force behind the touch increases in order to stimulate a reaction.
		
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I don't know anything about dressage so I've no idea what they get up to but I would imagine it would be much easier to genuinely touch rather than strike a horse who's on the ground compared to one that is in the air clearing large fences with extreme forward motion.  Also, once the horse is committed and in the air it's completely unable to change what its doing where as in the situation you describe the horse has the opportunity to immediately do it differently and then escape the touch which is (potentially) a positive training situation where as rapping a show jumper never is in my opinion.  Works well if you want to teach the horse to be scared of people standing near the fence tho!


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## FfionWinnie (2 January 2017)

ester said:



			I guess popsdosh uses some dead sheep then??!
		
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Ah yes dead sheep - cure any show jumping issue. 

Gives shepherds nightmares. I'm so conflicted!


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## fburton (2 January 2017)

gunnergundog said:



			Surely, it's just a matter of degree?  If the hind limbs aren't elevated sufficiently in piaffe in response to the touch then the force behind the touch increases in order to stimulate a reaction.
		
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I think whether it was a difference in degree or in kind would depend on whether, in the piaffe example, the tapping is administered continually until the desired reaction is obtained - in which case it would be negative reinforcement - in contrast to what is in effect a one-off (though possibly repeated) punishment for the undesired behaviour of not lifting the feet high enough. However, it is  true that an aversive stimulus is used in both cases. A practical consequence of this difference was mentioned a couple of posts above by twiggy2.


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## Goldenstar (2 January 2017)

FfionWinnie said:



			I don't know anything about dressage so I've no idea what they get up to but I would imagine it would be much easier to genuinely touch rather than strike a horse who's on the ground compared to one that is in the air clearing large fences with extreme forward motion.  Also, once the horse is committed and in the air it's completely unable to change what its doing where as in the situation you describe the horse has the opportunity to immediately do it differently and then escape the touch which is (potentially) a positive training situation where as rapping a show jumper never is in my opinion.  Works well if you want to teach the horse to be scared of people standing near the fence tho!
		
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It certainly teaches them to be afraid of people in the ring .
When H arrived he would bronc if some one on the ground went near a fence it was seriously anti social it took years to gain his confidence .
It did not make him careful it made him anxious because he simply could not work out how to solve the problem because his canter was not good enough .


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## Cortez (2 January 2017)

gunnergundog said:



			So do you differentiate between rapping with a cane over a jump and the work that Mandolo Mendez (amongst many others) will do with a bamboo cane and a horse in hand in order to establish straightness/forwardness or whatever or what the dressage peeps do to enhance piaffe?

Surely, it's just a matter of degree?  If the hind limbs aren't elevated sufficiently in piaffe in response to the touch then the force behind the touch increases in order to stimulate a reaction.
		
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Good analogy, and no, I wouldn't see a huge amount of difference between the two. Tapping a horse to elicit an elevation response in a commonly used technique, which has, like any other form of training, various degrees of intensity. Whacking the horses legs, whether in piaffe or over a jump, is excessive and unkind (and unlikely to achieve the perceived goal). A judicious, expertly timed tap, however is entirely different and I have seen this used with excellent results in both dressage training AND jumping - i.e. the horse calmly accepting and understanding the request to lift the legs higher/put more effort in. The difference is in the degree, and the skill of the trainer: badly done it CAN be torture; expertly done it is a beneficial tool. As has been the theme of this thread all along, it all depends on the education and the tact of the rider/trainer.


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## Leo Walker (2 January 2017)

FestiveG said:



			The thing that stands out for me in this thread is the way that supporters of the methods of training in the thread tittle, seem to be saying that because pain can be inflicted in all sorts of ways, it makes it acceptable for pain/discomfort to be inflicted by the above methods. There also seems to be the suggestion that if "professional" producers/riders cause the pain/discomfort that too is more acceptable than if caused by "leisure" riders. That all appears a little odd to me.
		
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It is!


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## Cortez (2 January 2017)

No,  it's about not about whether someone is a pro or an amateur, it's not about "inflicting pain in all sorts of ways", it's about using a technique PROPERLY, with restraint, timing, and above all knowledge. Cruelty occurs when something is done improperly, crudely, spitefully, ignorantly or in any way that abuses the animal.


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## popsdosh (2 January 2017)

rachk89 said:



			Popsdosh is. They think pinch boots and rapping is fine.
		
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Dont think I have !! However I have pointed out that many things are done to horses that are alien to them and cause discomfort  many which normal riders seem to accept as its not intended. I have said many times I do not condone mis treatment of horses . I think its all to do with intention of the action. For example a rider goes into the ring with over tight boots on the effect is exactly the same as using pinch boots  however you would deem one acceptable and one not ,Whats the difference. One of the reasons pinch boots are not banned is because nobody can distinguish them from normal fetlock boots easily, weighted boots were banned because it was easy to set a limit and police it.Rapping is a very different kettl;e of fish and has been born out there are many interpretations of how its carried out and I merely said the method I have seen is nothing like FW describes or others  so maybe my views are tempered by what I have seen.
So please dont accuse me of things I have not said I have chosen my words very carefully!


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## ester (2 January 2017)

Who said overtight boots were acceptable? Just because you cannot tell they are tight? I don't deem tight boots acceptable and I presume there is a reason for the boot rules for young horses- the specifics of which are to ensure one cannot over tighten?


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## popsdosh (2 January 2017)

FfionWinnie said:



			Ah yes dead sheep - cure any show jumping issue. 

Gives shepherds nightmares. I'm so conflicted!
		
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Dead sheep the ultimate achievement for a sheep!! Im sure you will agree


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## popsdosh (2 January 2017)

ester said:



			Who said overtight boots were acceptable? Just because you cannot tell they are tight? I don't deem tight boots acceptable and I presume there is a reason for the boot rules for young horses- the specifics of which are to ensure one cannot over tighten?
		
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The poster I was replying to has stated many times previously that unintentional misdemeanours were ok and an acceptable part of the learning process and I indeed all along have tried to say they are no different.I am actually with you, and would rather see a no boot rule for show jumping as it would bring things back to basics and no little advantage could be arrived at to the detriment of the horse the game has been cleaned up no end from where it was a few decades ago why not go that bit further.


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## paddi22 (2 January 2017)

i was on a yard as a kid where they had dead hedgehogs nailed to a pole and used it for horses who were 'lazy' with their legs.


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## FfionWinnie (2 January 2017)

popsdosh said:



			Dead sheep the ultimate achievement for a sheep!! Im sure you will agree 

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Well I'm afraid I won't agree about that either. Do I need to give you my sick sheep lecture now or will that spoil the mood.


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## stencilface (2 January 2017)

popsdosh said:



			Dead sheep the ultimate achievement for a sheep!! Im sure you will agree 

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As our neighbouring farmer says 'sheep were born to die'

Fwiw horses do have to be far more careful these days, hopefully mainly achieved through breeding and kind training. Poles used to be heavy wooden things, hexagonal or sometimes square, these days if you breathe too hard on them they drop.


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## popsdosh (2 January 2017)

FfionWinnie said:



			Well I'm afraid I won't agree about that either. Do I need to give you my sick sheep lecture now or will that spoil the mood. 

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Obviously even have different sheep north of the border! how bizarre.


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## FfionWinnie (2 January 2017)

You've provoked me into it. Sheep are not born to die at all. Acting normally when they are ill is their only line of defence against predators (or farmers). Thus by the time they admit they are ill they are very ill. Or indeed dead. 

Much easier to notice illness in a horse or a cow than a sheep for most. 

I nearly lost a contract lambing once for a real old curmudgeon of a farmer because when he took me round the ewes there was a dead one. I said that it was typical, meaning, of all the days to have a dead animal it was typical to have someone you don't know in tow. He had taken it to mean that I thought it was typical for sheep to die!  Not a good attitude for a shepherd. Luckily he listened to my explanation!


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## popsdosh (2 January 2017)

The Vet school put forward a similar but subtly different reasoning . They said of all animals sheep had one of the highest thresholds to stress so when ill it is to late by the time they show symptoms. That doesnt account for the suicidal ones though where the shepherd always have to be one step ahead of the sheep to out think them,Im sure we both have those funny anecdotes!


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## Micropony (2 January 2017)

popsdosh said:



			Rapping is a very different kettl;e of fish and has been born out there are many interpretations of how its carried out and I merely said the method I have seen is nothing like FW describes or others  so maybe my views are tempered by what I have seen.
		
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I am sorry to be thick, and I am asking because I don't understand what you mean, not to try and make any sort of point, but please will you describe the method you have seen used? There are lots of posts on this thread, so sorry if I have missed it!


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## FfionWinnie (2 January 2017)

It's why I like Shaun the sheep. Reminds me of my life. Less so now I've got shot of the Shetland sheep!!


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## popsdosh (2 January 2017)

Micropony said:



			I am sorry to be thick, and I am asking because I don't understand what you mean, not to try and make any sort of point, but please will you describe the method you have seen used? There are lots of posts on this thread, so sorry if I have missed it!
		
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I wont mention names because that would not be fair . I was shown maybe 30 years ago by a current top rider. 

A cane or in certain circumstances a rolled up lunge whip were used. used in a way that it was hidden behind the top rail and as the horse jumped just slightly raised so as it came above the top bar and the horses back legs rubbed against it to create the sensation in the horse that their legs were not high enoughthe skill in this is in the timing. At no time was any attempt made to actually strike the horses legs in any way and thats what I am basing my replies on . I am fully aware other practices go on under the term 'Rapping' and I am as opposed to them as the next man! However the degree of discomfort in what I just described is more down to the person performing it and their skill as opposed to any person doing it for the wrong reasons.  All the time we have showjumping there will always be people trying to go that one step to far to gain advantage


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## Micropony (2 January 2017)

popsdosh said:



			I wont mention names because that would not be fair . I was shown maybe 30 years ago by a current top rider. 

A cane or in certain circumstances a rolled up lunge whip were used. used in a way that it was hidden behind the top rail and as the horse jumped just slightly raised so as it came above the top bar and the horses back legs rubbed against it to create the sensation in the horse that their legs were not high enoughthe skill in this is in the timing. At no time was any attempt made to actually strike the horses legs in any way and thats what I am basing my replies on . I am fully aware other practices go on under the term 'Rapping' and I am as opposed to them as the next man! However the degree of discomfort in what I just described is more down to the person performing it and their skill as opposed to any person doing it for the wrong reasons.  All the time we have showjumping there will always be people trying to go that one step to far to gain advantage
		
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Thank you, that does help me understand.


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## popsdosh (2 January 2017)

FfionWinnie said:



			It's why I like Shaun the sheep. Reminds me of my life. Less so now I've got shot of the Shetland sheep!!
		
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Yes we have muppets around here who get a few Soays or Herdwick  and ring up and say 'why cant I keep them In' and I reply 'A rifle is your friend'


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## ycbm (3 January 2017)

FfionWinnie said:



			You've provoked me into it. Sheep are not born to die at all. Acting normally when they are ill is their only line of defence against predators (or farmers). Thus by the time they admit they are ill they are very ill. Or indeed dead. 

Much easier to notice illness in a horse or a cow than a sheep for most. 

I nearly lost a contract lambing once for a real old curmudgeon of a farmer because when he took me round the ewes there was a dead one. I said that it was typical, meaning, of all the days to have a dead animal it was typical to have someone you don't know in tow. He had taken it to mean that I thought it was typical for sheep to die!  Not a good attitude for a shepherd. Luckily he listened to my explanation!
		
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They don't have to be ill to seek creative ways to die, though, do they FW?  All the sheep farmers around me laugh at how suicidal sheep are. Heads stuck through fences, stuck on their back in a dip in the grass, stuck between a stone wall and the wire fence six inches in front of it, stuck with a leg twisted between two strands of top wiring, out on a busy A road, rams that head butt each other and break their necks, lambs with a mother that won't feed them, male lambs with a mother that will only feed females, lambs with a mother that bit off its foot instead of the umbilical cord .......

I'm sure there are more, but those are the ones I've personally seen living in sheep country.

Sheep just love dying!


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## ycbm (3 January 2017)

popsdosh said:



			Yes we have muppets around here who get a few Soays or Herdwick  and ring up and say 'why cant I keep them In' and I reply 'A rifle is your friend'
		
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My friend thought breeding 'Erdwicks would be fun and profitable. It's cost her a fortune to fence them in!


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## FfionWinnie (3 January 2017)

ycbm said:



			They don't have to be ill to seek creative ways to die, though, do they FW?  All the sheep farmers around me laugh at how suicidal sheep are. Heads stuck through fences, stuck on their back in a dip in the grass, stuck between a stone wall and the wire fence six inches in front of it, stuck with a leg twisted between two strands of top wiring, out on a busy A road, rams that head butt each other and break their necks, lambs with a mother that won't feed them, male lambs with a mother that will only feed females, lambs with a mother that bit off its foot instead of the umbilical cord .......

I'm sure there are more, but those are the ones I've personally seen living in sheep country.

Sheep just love dying!
		
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Yep commercial sheep breeds generally aren't fit for purpose. Wonder who bred them to be unfit for purpose...

You won't find a primitive sheep getting into those situations. 

Not just cos it's run off.


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## ycbm (3 January 2017)

I forgot the one that decided to jump into the blades of a topper. Shredded sheep, anyone?


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## ohmissbrittany (3 January 2017)

I find most of the people who use those sorts of gimmicks are the "almost but not quite big" trainers that are essentially cheating to try and win; you see it less at upper levels where they have the money to go out and buy something else rather than rush a horse's training or mash it into something it doesn't want to do. I've known people who use electrified spurs, and all sorts. My trainer in TX got one whose brain was FRIED by one of these people. You could school XC and natural fences all day long but the minute you started laying out white/colored poles on the ground and building a grid or SJ style course she'd just melt down.

My trainer used to try to get my horse to rub a pole before a class by raising the jump until she did, but gave up when she wouldn't touch it- no sense warming up over 1.25m when you're only jumping a meter class. XD


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## ljohnsonsj (3 January 2017)

I haven't read all of this,and while I don't agree with rapping, tying up cruelty etc I don't see the issue with pinch boots. 
Used properly and most efficiently, They are worn in the warm up for 1 or 2 jumps, to sharpen up the back end then took off. 
I compete all over the country, and while I agree some things that some people may do behind closed doors is truly hideous, it's a minority. I jump age classes- but my horses don't do a lot before hand jumping wise, its just experience. 
This horse had done 1 small training show pre this show, here he is jumping 4yos.






This one jumping 5yos, again only had done a handful of shows. Never been rapped or anything, naturally talented and properly produced






I think inexperience people ruin horses too young by doing to much training and drilling. All my horses jump age classes and NEVER have had an issue.


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## JFTDWS (3 January 2017)

FfionWinnie said:



			Sheep are not born to die at all.
		
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Well they are.  All animals are born to die.  Possibly having managed to reproduce first, but ultimately, there's only one certainty in life...


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## ester (3 January 2017)

ljohnsonsj said:



			I haven't read all of this,and while I don't agree with rapping, tying up cruelty etc I don't see the issue with pinch boots. 
Used properly and most efficiently, They are worn in the warm up for 1 or 2 jumps, to sharpen up the back end then took off. 
I compete all over the country, and while I agree some things that some people may do behind closed doors is truly hideous, it's a minority. I jump age classes- but my horses don't do a lot before hand jumping wise, its just experience. 
This horse had done 1 small training show pre this show, here he is jumping 4yos.






This one jumping 5yos, again only had done a handful of shows. Never been rapped or anything, naturally talented and properly produced






I think inexperience people ruin horses too young by doing to much training and drilling. All my horses jump age classes and NEVER have had an issue.
		
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I though it was age/young horse classes that they were banned in? Surely that would include the warm up?


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## Casey76 (3 January 2017)

Goldenstar said:



			It certainly teaches them to be afraid of people in the ring .
When H arrived he would bronc if some one on the ground went near a fence it was seriously anti social it took years to gain his confidence .
It did not make him careful it made him anxious because he simply could not work out how to solve the problem because his canter was not good enough .
		
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I know a couple of horses/ponies on my yard who became absolutely terrified of the sound of a pole hitting the ground, to the point if they touched a pole they would rocket off.  both had been under the instruction of one particular coach.

Generally he would use really heavy poles for the top and not put boots on lazy legged animals, but he was well known for rapping/poling even with the 15kg poles (when most of our poles are light plastic practice poles).


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## merlinsquest (3 January 2017)

ester said:



			I though it was age/young horse classes that they were banned in? Surely that would include the warm up?
		
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She didn't say she used them on her young horses but said she competes a lot & explained how the boots should be used correctly


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## ljohnsonsj (3 January 2017)

merlinsquest said:



			She didn't say she used them on her young horses but said she competes a lot & explained how the boots should be used correctly
		
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This. I don't find they really benefit young horses much at all to be honest- young horses tend to over jump due to inexperience anyway. However older horses who are often cock sure of themselves and can get a bit lacksy I think they do help.


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## amandaco2 (3 January 2017)

I think the difference is moral. unknowingly or accidentally inflicting pain (eg getting left behind at a jump, learning to do rising trot etc) to achieve something is different morally to deliberately planning and inflicting it(planning to rap your horse or pin it in tight draw reins for hours or whatever).
for dramas sake its a bit like the difference of manslaughter to murder.
the victim/ horse doesn't necessarily know the difference but the perpetrator does. and that is the difference to me.


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## FfionWinnie (3 January 2017)

amandaco2 said:



			the victim/ horse doesn't necessarily know the difference but the perpetrator does. and that is the difference to me.
		
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You've hit the nail on the head.


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## NiceNeverNaughty (3 January 2017)

Ive got some Herdwicks - they are the only ones so far that havent escaped!!


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## FfionWinnie (3 January 2017)

NeverEver said:



			Ive got some Herdwicks - they are the only ones so far that havent escaped!! 

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I bet you have fences and not dykes. If you have dykes and herdwicks your life is a living hell. Similarly bad if you have soays without rabbit netting buried under the ground and meshed gates


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## ester (3 January 2017)

ljohnsonsj said:



			This. I don't find they really benefit young horses much at all to be honest- young horses tend to over jump due to inexperience anyway. However older horses who are often cock sure of themselves and can get a bit lacksy I think they do help.
		
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Thanks that's why I was clarifying as was a bit confused as to why it related to you specifically  doing age classes that was all given that is the one place they aren't permitted, it seemed a bit incongrous in my reading but that is probably because I was on the phone. 

It was my understanding that yes, they don't work for long because of habituation but some people then opt not to use them in the warm up but then put them on for in the ring or is that not correct?


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## ester (3 January 2017)

We had 8 herdwicks in a fenced and ditched paddock across the road from us, totalling oh about a tenth of an acre. They were purchased because they couldn't get the purebreds the daughter wanted at the time (they have normal sheep too). After getting out a couple of times previously one dog, 3 experienced people trying to load them, nope! A local knitting lady was the only person pleased they existed I think .


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## sky1000 (3 January 2017)

When I was reading this thread Black Beauty came to mind.   There's a lot in there about appearance and arrogance but also well meaning ignorance causing problems.

My view of herdwicks is that they are delicious.


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## gunnergundog (3 January 2017)

ester said:



			It was my understanding that yes, they don't work for long because of habituation QUOTE]

Precisely the same as proprioceptive bracelets............so should all chartered physios be banned from using them?  They work on stimulation principles, same as other techniques discussed above.
		
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## FfionWinnie (3 January 2017)

ester said:



			We had 8 herdwicks in a fenced and ditched paddock across the road from us, totalling oh about a tenth of an acre. They were purchased because they couldn't get the purebreds the daughter wanted at the time (they have normal sheep too). After getting out a couple of times previously one dog, 3 experienced people trying to load them, nope! A local knitting lady was the only person pleased they existed I think .
		
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My friend got some for training young dogs. They didn't like this job so would just hop the 6ft walls any time they heard her car coming down the lane. I'm surprised the knitting lady liked them they are better for carpets. 

Funnily enough don't see them up here often yet there are two in a field with some texels near me. I did think wonder if they are supposed to be in there as it's not a very well fenced field!


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## popsdosh (3 January 2017)

The reason they dont stay on is their effect diminishes within 10 mins as they work on pressure points in theory.
Do none of you accept that the rider deliberately dropping a horse into a fence in a warm up may be doing a lot more damage than being schooled in a more controlled way . I SJ steward at  BE events and it is very common to see horses deliberately given an impossible shot at a warm up fence but nobody seems to care IMO the horse is more likely to be caused suffering by this .If you say anything the TD or whoever just says we cant prove anything and these things happen funny they had just took its boots off.


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## popsdosh (3 January 2017)

FfionWinnie said:



			My friend got some for training young dogs. They didn't like this job so would just hop the 6ft walls any time they heard her car coming down the lane. I'm surprised the knitting lady liked them they are better for carpets. 

Funnily enough don't see them up here often yet there are two in a field with some texels near me. I did think wonder if they are supposed to be in there as it's not a very well fenced field!
		
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No they make better Rugs!!

Sheep farmers round here keep small numbers as it gives them something to talk about in the PUB They hold a census once a month with a prize for the one with the least as they are so mobile.

 yes not sheep but we have feral cattle here . The so called cattle manager at the local grazing project went down to Exmoor and bought a group of Newly weaned Belted Galloway calves to graze the electric fenced grazing . They duly arrived and they dropped the ramp to let them straight out to graze . As their A***s disappeared that was the last they saw of them!! Some have met their maker( and very tasty they were) and a few turn up in other herds for day or so before moving on.


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## NiceNeverNaughty (4 January 2017)

lol we have dykes with a couple of lines of wire fence as well..  so far they&#8217;ve stayed in and Ive worked my dog on them ok. They seem to heavy to put in much effort for anything ?!  Prior to that the blackies I had were out on a daily basis!! And lets just not speak about my experience with Hebrideans!


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## fburton (4 January 2017)

gunnergundog said:



			Precisely the same as proprioceptive bracelets............so should all chartered physios be banned from using them?  They work on stimulation principles, same as other techniques discussed above.
		
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Sorry, you lost me there. _How_ do they work? If anyone can point me to a good ref to explain this, I'd be very grateful.


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## ester (4 January 2017)

gunnergundog said:





ester said:



			It was my understanding that yes, they don't work for long because of habituation
		
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Precisely the same as proprioceptive bracelets............so should all chartered physios be banned from using them?  They work on stimulation principles, same as other techniques discussed above.
		
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Err where did I say that was wrong?? Oh yes I didn't, just stated a scientific fact as I often do!


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## ljohnsonsj (4 January 2017)

ester said:



			Thanks that's why I was clarifying as was a bit confused as to why it related to you specifically  doing age classes that was all given that is the one place they aren't permitted, it seemed a bit incongrous in my reading but that is probably because I was on the phone. 

It was my understanding that yes, they don't work for long because of habituation but some people then opt not to use them in the warm up but then put them on for in the ring or is that not correct?
		
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I'm sure it varies massively how people use them, I find the most common practice is to use them in the warm up to 'wake them up' then after a few jumps they're being much more useful with there back end, so no need to keep them on as they are no longer effective/ the horse gets used to the feeling of it.

As I said, I personally don't use them, no need to as I've young horses whom are naturally talented/ inexperienced so jump big anyway,but I don't have an issue with the boots and don't find them cruel unlike rapping etc.

I referenced the young horses as it seems people who don't do much competition wise ( maybe I'm generalising here, I don't mean too) Have a lot to say about young horses doing these classes and how it instantly 'ruins' them and 'they won't be jumping into their teens' which is just incorrect and gets quite annoying tbh. I think they assume the horses are hammered and drilled every day at home to make them this way, when truth is many aren't doing much at home and in-between shows other than jumping age classes at premier shows, 9/10 of these horses can go out with not much experience at all and jump well, because they're bred for the job and are usually under pro's or very experienced riders who fill the horse with the confidence it needs.


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## Caol Ila (4 January 2017)

I really don't think arguing that lots of horses experience pain when ridden by novices making novice mistakes is much of a defense for rapping (which I always assumed was the practice of whacking a horse's legs with a bamboo pole as it went over a jump), but any thread on any forum where someone decries an abusive practice at the top levels of any equestrian sport always seems to end up with posters saying "Amateurs abuse their horses too!"  As if that's some kind of mitigation.  Read any rollkur thread, and someone will always be kvetching about people at the lowest levels of dressage who yank their horses' heads in.  Does one really mitigate the other?  Does it have anything whatsoever to do with other?  I don't think so.  

That's like starting a thread complaining about armed robbery, and then someone arguing that we shouldn't be just talking about armed robbery and singling out armed robbers, because lots of people commit internet fraud as well.  The most useless defense lawyer in the world would not be daft enough to argue that his client shouldn't be prosecuted because somewhere in the world, someone else has committed another totally unrelated crime.


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## Wagtail (4 January 2017)

Caol Ila said:



			I really don't think arguing that lots of horses experience pain when ridden by novices making novice mistakes is much of a defense for rapping (which I always assumed was the practice of whacking a horse's legs with a bamboo pole as it went over a jump), but any thread on any forum where someone decries an abusive practice at the top levels of any equestrian sport always seems to end up with posters saying "Amateurs abuse their horses too!"  As if that's some kind of mitigation.  Read any rollkur thread, and someone will always be kvetching about people at the lowest levels of dressage who yank their horses' heads in.  Does one really mitigate the other?  Does it have anything whatsoever to do with other?  I don't think so.  

That's like starting a thread complaining about armed robbery, and then someone arguing that we shouldn't be just talking about armed robbery and singling out armed robbers, because lots of people commit internet fraud as well.  The most useless defense lawyer in the world would not be daft enough to argue that his client shouldn't be prosecuted because somewhere in the world, someone else has committed another totally unrelated crime.
		
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Completely agree! This happens all the time.


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## Shadowdancing (4 January 2017)

Caol Ila said:



			I really don't think arguing that lots of horses experience pain when ridden by novices making novice mistakes is much of a defense for rapping (which I always assumed was the practice of whacking a horse's legs with a bamboo pole as it went over a jump), but any thread on any forum where someone decries an abusive practice at the top levels of any equestrian sport always seems to end up with posters saying "Amateurs abuse their horses too!"  As if that's some kind of mitigation.  Read any rollkur thread, and someone will always be kvetching about people at the lowest levels of dressage who yank their horses' heads in.  Does one really mitigate the other?  Does it have anything whatsoever to do with other?  I don't think so.  

That's like starting a thread complaining about armed robbery, and then someone arguing that we shouldn't be just talking about armed robbery and singling out armed robbers, because lots of people commit internet fraud as well.  The most useless defense lawyer in the world would not be daft enough to argue that his client shouldn't be prosecuted because somewhere in the world, someone else has committed another totally unrelated crime.
		
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Very true this.


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## Micropony (4 January 2017)

Caol Ila said:



			I really don't think arguing that lots of horses experience pain when ridden by novices making novice mistakes is much of a defense for rapping (which I always assumed was the practice of whacking a horse's legs with a bamboo pole as it went over a jump), but any thread on any forum where someone decries an abusive practice at the top levels of any equestrian sport always seems to end up with posters saying "Amateurs abuse their horses too!"  As if that's some kind of mitigation.  Read any rollkur thread, and someone will always be kvetching about people at the lowest levels of dressage who yank their horses' heads in.  Does one really mitigate the other?  Does it have anything whatsoever to do with other?  I don't think so.  

That's like starting a thread complaining about armed robbery, and then someone arguing that we shouldn't be just talking about armed robbery and singling out armed robbers, because lots of people commit internet fraud as well.  The most useless defense lawyer in the world would not be daft enough to argue that his client shouldn't be prosecuted because somewhere in the world, someone else has committed another totally unrelated crime.
		
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I don't remember reading a response from anyone that was suggesting that novice riders' mistakes made it okay for professionals to use unethical training techniques.


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## popsdosh (4 January 2017)

Micropony said:



			I don't remember reading a response from anyone that was suggesting that novice riders' mistakes made it okay for professionals to use unethical training techniques.
		
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I dont either! however its how things get twisted. It was more to point out that horses get damaged in all sorts of ways with intent or not but the horse doesnt know the difference. Nobody can use it as an excuse IMO both are as bad as each other. Others obviously find it acceptable as long as you have no intent really!!


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## FfionWinnie (4 January 2017)

popsdosh said:



			I dont either! however its how things get twisted. It was more to point out that horses get damaged in all sorts of ways with intent or not but the horse doesnt know the difference. Nobody can use it as an excuse IMO both are as bad as each other. Others obviously find it acceptable as long as you have no intent dream on.
		
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You talk about twisting things and in the next few lines are doing the same yourself!


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## Goldenstar (4 January 2017)

No it's been pretty clear on the thread that some people think that pain inflicted is different because of intent of the person inflicting the discomfort .
Lots of us think there's no difference to the horse .
There is a difference to the human but that's not what we are talking about.


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## fburton (4 January 2017)

popsdosh said:



			I dont either! however its how things get twisted. It was more to point out that horses get damaged in all sorts of ways with intent or not but the horse doesnt know the difference. Nobody can use it as an excuse IMO both are as bad as each other. Others obviously find it acceptable as long as you have no intent really!!
		
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I think one kind of badness compounds another. It's bad if a horse is made to feel pain unnecessarily, but worse if there is also the intention to do it and a knowledge that it will happen.


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## fburton (4 January 2017)

Goldenstar said:



			No it's been pretty clear on the thread that some people think that pain inflicted is different because of intent of the person inflicting the discomfort .
Lots of us think there's no difference to the horse .
There is a difference to the human but that's not what we are talking about.
		
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Why shouldn't we be talking about it? It's highly relevant, in my opinion. The fact that there's no difference to the horse isn't the only consideration. If that were the case, some sexual abuse of horses (for example) wouldn't actually be abuse on the grounds that "there is no difference to the horse". We can't simply take the perpetrator out of the equation (again, in my opinion).


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## popsdosh (4 January 2017)

fburton said:



			Why shouldn't we be talking about it? It's highly relevant, in my opinion. The fact that there's no difference to the horse isn't the only consideration. If that were the case, some sexual abuse of horses (for example) wouldn't actually be abuse on the grounds that "there is no difference to the horse". We can't simply take the perpetrator out of the equation (again, in my opinion).
		
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So in essence what you are saying is and i am not talking about rapping here . Its ok to discomfort a horse for the benefit of the human learning experience but not to educate the horse to jump in a better way or more subtly to move away from your leg in dressage using a whip. Horses would never get trained if we followed that logic surely we all know that is causing the horse a degree of discomfort and certainly with intent . What do we do with those amateur ,inexperienced riders who cannot see the errors of their ways as we all know they are out there. to use your analogy if the perpetrator could make the case that they did not know what they were doing was wrong the abuse isnt taking place is that correct ?
Sorry if it sounds pedantic but all of us that are interested in horse welfare are not a long way apart on this and there have been huge strides forward in Show jumping welfare .


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## fburton (4 January 2017)

popsdosh said:



			So in essence what you are saying is and i am not talking about rapping here . Its ok to discomfort a horse for the benefit of the human learning experience but not to educate the horse to jump in a better way or more subtly to move away from your leg in dressage using a whip.
		
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I think you're interpreting what I wrote in a very strange way, and not one I intended at all. We shouldn't knowingly inflict pain or extreme discomfort on a horse to achieve ends that can also be achieved in gentler ways. If we inflict unknowingly, it is also bad, but less so. That's where education comes in.

Inflicting mild discomfort is well nigh unavoidable in training, unless you want to go the purely positive (rewards only) route which I personally don't and which may sometimes entail problems of its own (imo).

The question is, as always, where does one draw the line between mild and extreme discomfort? When does it become 'unacceptable'?

My view is that, rather than drawing a line and sticking to it rigidly, we should do what we possibly can within real life restrictions always to _reduce_ the amount of discomfort we need to inflict on our horses in order to achieve our goals.

I'm glad to hear that there have been huge strides in SJ welfare. Some (maybe most) of these welfare improvements have been as a result of pressure from outside. And that's why I believe it's important that a sensible degree of pressure is maintained, to motivate further improvement.


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## Goldenstar (4 January 2017)

Well of course we can talk about but the thread has been about the treatment of the horse no ones discussed the effect of behaving in a undesirable way on the human .


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## popsdosh (4 January 2017)

fburton said:



			I think you're interpreting what I wrote in a very strange way, and not one I intended at all. We shouldn't knowingly inflict pain or extreme discomfort on a horse to achieve ends that can also be achieved in gentler ways. If we inflict unknowingly, it is also bad, but less so. That's where education comes in.

Inflicting mild discomfort is well nigh unavoidable in training, unless you want to go the purely positive (rewards only) route which I personally don't and which may sometimes entail problems of its own (imo).

The question is, as always, where does one draw the line between mild and extreme discomfort? When does it become 'unacceptable'?

My view is that, rather than drawing a line and sticking to it rigidly, we should do what we possibly can within real life restrictions always to _reduce_ the amount of discomfort we need to inflict on our horses in order to achieve our goals.

I'm glad to hear that there have been huge strides in SJ welfare. Some (maybe most) of these welfare improvements have been as a result of pressure from outside. And that's why I believe it's important that a sensible degree of pressure is maintained, to motivate further improvement.
		
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It is all down to where we draw the line! I totally agree with you! However with success boundaries tend to creep somewhat.

 Its ok blaming it all on greed at the top which has been suggested but how do we deal with those at the lower levels who put no effort into improving or frankly cant see they need to ,the ones who every time they get on a horse cause it damage. Olympia at Christmas is our shop window out to the general public what message did some of those kids in the pony jumping send out. If I did that when I was their age I would have been stopped mid round and dragged off the pony,however it does show the pressure to achieve creeps in everywhere. If we dealt with it there then maybe the whole sport in time would benefit.


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## fburton (4 January 2017)

I don't think we are that different in our viewpoints, popsdosh.


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## Micropony (4 January 2017)

fburton said:



			I think you're interpreting what I wrote in a very strange way, and not one I intended at all. We shouldn't knowingly inflict pain or extreme discomfort on a horse to achieve ends that can also be achieved in gentler ways. If we inflict unknowingly, it is also bad, but less so. That's where education comes in.

Inflicting mild discomfort is well nigh unavoidable in training, unless you want to go the purely positive (rewards only) route which I personally don't and which may sometimes entail problems of its own (imo).

The question is, as always, where does one draw the line between mild and extreme discomfort? When does it become 'unacceptable'?

My view is that, rather than drawing a line and sticking to it rigidly, we should do what we possibly can within real life restrictions always to _reduce_ the amount of discomfort we need to inflict on our horses in order to achieve our goals.

I'm glad to hear that there have been huge strides in SJ welfare. Some (maybe most) of these welfare improvements have been as a result of pressure from outside. And that's why I believe it's important that a sensible degree of pressure is maintained, to motivate further improvement.
		
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Steady on old girl, or we'll all be agreeing!!


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## Caol Ila (5 January 2017)

I think they are different problems.  My beef was with the way any discussion of abuse in the elite levels inevitably turns into a discussion about bad riding and abuse at the pleb levels.  Try this analogy: if I start a thread bemoaning poverty in the UK and wondering what can be done to alleviate it, saying that there is worse poverty in Africa is true, but mostly irrelevent.  

The intent question is interesting.  We live in a society with a few hundred years of criminal justice predicated on intent -- punishing someone for their guilty mind as well as their illegal acts.  That's why most places have an insanity defense, grounded by the notion that it's unjust and immoral to punish someone who cannot appreciate nor understand the wrongfulness of their actions.   That's also why (as someone on this thread said earlier) there is a substantial difference between murder and manslaughter sentences.  It makes no difference to the victim -- they are still dead -- but our jurisprudence has long held that killing someone willfully and deliberately (with malice aforethought, they say in the business) is worse than killing someone by doing something so unbelievably negligent and stupid that you should have known it might cause harm, but didn't actually intend on anyone ending up dead.

Bad riding and mistakes made through ignorance should be dealt with, through education, and there isn't enough of it, but someone who sticks thumbtacks in splint boots to make horse jump higher (to use an extreme example) is committing a worse wrong than a novice who socks their horse in the mouth over every jump because they can't balance.  Both hurt the horse, but from a moral standpoint, willfully and deliberately causing the horse pain is worse.


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## Cortez (5 January 2017)

I agree that deliberate cruelty is wholely different to ignorant cruelty: both need to be dealt with, but ignorance is no defense, legally or morally. Education is the key to tackling the latter and prosecution the former, but there are times when there is crossover between the two also.


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## ihatework (5 January 2017)

Caol Ila, I totally take your point and do not disagree.

But what about where 'abuse' or 'torture' to quote to emotive terms on this thread are not so clear cut.

2 examples on this thread are pinch boots and rapping. Of which it would appear very easy to immediately jump to the 'abuse' stance without really understanding what you protest about.

I have had some (not a lot) of experience with pinch boots. I had on heart do not believe these are abusive to the horse if used in moderation and for the intended purpose. I do not believe they hurt horses although there is no strong evidence to either support or defy that statement. I do believe though that it can be as detrimental to some horses jump as it is positive to others. The FEI are in a very strong phase of cutting out dodgy practise and these boots have been on their radar for a while, if they were abusive they would be banned. I do perhaps think there is a case for banning them on a performance enhancing type argument.

In terms of rapping I have virtually zero experience so do not feel qualified to comment. I witnessed a trainer many years ago rap (in my understood definition) a couple of horses, so heavy top pole lifted with the intention of forcing the horse to hit it. It is in my ethical opinion abuse and has no place in horse training. That said, I'm intrigued by popsdosh explanation of a skilfully used cane to gently brush and heighten awareness of a particular limb. I'd be interested to observe that in action by someone experienced.


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## Wagtail (5 January 2017)

ihatework said:



			I have had some (not a lot) of experience with pinch boots. I had on heart do not believe these are abusive to the horse if used in moderation and for the intended purpose. I do not believe they hurt horses although there is no strong evidence to either support or defy that statement. I do believe though that it can be as detrimental to some horses jump as it is positive to others. The FEI are in a very strong phase of cutting out dodgy practise and these boots have been on their radar for a while, if they were abusive they would be banned. I do perhaps think there is a case for banning them on a performance enhancing type argument.
		
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If they do not hurt the horse (and causing discomfort is hurting in my book), then why would they make them snap up their legs more or even as you say, have a detrimental effect on some horses?


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## Cortez (5 January 2017)

I too have seen horses "rapped" (more like tapped...) with a very light bamboo cane; it certainly wasn't an abuse, any more than tapping a horse on the croup to encourage sitting in the piaffe.

I have also seen horses rapped with a very heavy pole; this WAS abusive, and the people doing it were ignorant, not very experienced amateurs. So again: a training method which is open to abuse, either through ignorance or design?


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## ihatework (5 January 2017)

Wagtail said:



			If they do not hurt the horse (and causing discomfort is hurting in my book), then why would they make them snap up their legs more or even as you say, have a detrimental effect on some horses?
		
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They work on propriception / pressure points, some horses will have a stronger reaction than others. Maybe because of the fitting of the boot, maybe they are just more sensitive to it naturally!
The 2 adverse reactions I have heard of are either that they just don't like the Sensation and want the boots off (think a bit like putting on tall travel boots!) or a more subtle reaction can be that as they become more aware of the hindlimb they almost forget about the forelimb.


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## Wagtail (5 January 2017)

ihatework said:



			They work on propriception / pressure points, some horses will have a stronger reaction than others. Maybe because of the fitting of the boot, maybe they are just more sensitive to it naturally!
The 2 adverse reactions I have heard of are either that they just don't like the Sensation and want the boots off (think a bit like putting on tall travel boots!) or a more subtle reaction can be that as they become more aware of the hindlimb they almost forget about the forelimb.
		
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Thanks for explaining that. I have been a good few years out of competing and pinch boots are not something I came across whilst I was show jumping. You are saying it is a bit like the high stepping action you see when you put boots on horses that are not accustomed to them? That makes sense to me. However, would the effect not wear off over time unless the pressure points were actually uncomfortable?


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## ihatework (5 January 2017)

Wagtail said:



			Thanks for explaining that. I have been a good few years out of competing and pinch boots are not something I came across whilst I was show jumping. You are saying it is a bit like the high stepping action you see when you put boots on horses that are not accustomed to them? That makes sense to me. However, would the effect not wear off over time unless the pressure points were actually uncomfortable?
		
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It can vary but yes a WTF have you put on my leg type response.
If they find it uncomfortable or not then that reaction would subdue over time but either way the boots wouldn't serve the purpose you need so continuing to use them would be at best pointless and at worst detrimental. These boots really are just used for 5 mins at a type to heighten awareness of hind limbs


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## stencilface (5 January 2017)

Pinch boots kind of cause the reaction my horse has when I put travel boots on I think.

Rapping I think of as the people who put an invisible to the horse metal Pole above the normal Pole so they end up hitting it. I also know of people (from being told about them, haven't seen it) with a pole on a pullets which allows the Pole to be raised after the horse has taken off. Have also heard of both these methods having electric shocks involved. 

Brushing a horses leg with a cane or whip I wouldn't count as rapping, anymore than I think of a forwards whip aid if the leg is ignored as a beating.


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## ester (5 January 2017)

Cortez said:



			I agree that deliberate cruelty is wholely different to ignorant cruelty: both need to be dealt with, but ignorance is no defense, legally or morally. Education is the key to tackling the latter and prosecution the former, but there are times when there is crossover between the two also.
		
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I though that caol Ila's point was that it actually often is a defence legally?


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## ihatework (5 January 2017)

ester said:



			I though that caol Ila's point was that it actually often is a defence legally?
		
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Didn't appear to work for the fat bint that took that skinny horse on a fun ride who just got done.


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## ester (5 January 2017)

I did say often not always! I think it also depends on the level of cruelty and whether it is beyond what a lay person would be expected to know. - I guess Im thinking more of the more complicated veterinary situations that can occur with the more vulnerable of society.


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## popsdosh (5 January 2017)

ester said:



			I though that caol Ila's point was that it actually often is a defence legally?
		
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You dont get off a speeding ticket with that defence . Ignorance of the law is not a defence under our legal system at all which is why that reference baffled me. Our legal system would collapse if it was we would all be totally ignorant wouldnt we!


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## ester (5 January 2017)

we're not talking ignorance of the law though are we? We are talking ignorance of an animals needs, those are two totally different bits of knowledge and it is well documented that those in a professional position are expected to have greater knowledge of the welfare requirements of animals in their care than a lay person. Which is why I questioned it as I don't think saying that ignorance isn't ever a defence in law is quite right. I certainly know of magistrates rspca cases where someone thought they were doing the best for an animal, had sought vet advice but struggled to follow it for whom their lack of in depth veterinary knowledge was a successful defence.


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## popsdosh (5 January 2017)

ester said:



			we're not talking ignorance of the law though are we? We are talking ignorance of an animals needs, those are two totally different bits of knowledge and it is well documented that those in a professional position are expected to have greater knowledge of the welfare requirements of animals in their care than a lay person. Which is why I questioned it as I don't think saying that ignorance isn't ever a defence in law is quite right. I certainly know of magistrates rspca cases where someone thought they were doing the best for an animal, had sought vet advice but struggled to follow it for whom their lack of in depth veterinary knowledge was a successful defence.
		
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So what line do you take when the village idiot raps a horse because they have seen somebody else do it but can legitimately say oh I didnt know that would hurt the horse. If its wrong its wrong it makes no difference who is doing it IMO. The inexperienced amateurs are not immune from responsibility I really dont see the issue with that. Maybe any punishment will be tempered by it but the guilt is the same. However most of what we going on about is only a moral issue anyhow as none of it is illegal surprisingly.


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## ester (5 January 2017)

I am only pointing out facts in response to others posts, or questions when I am not sure blanket statements can be wholly correct if that is what they are trying to say. I've never said inexperienced amateurs are immune from responsibility but even if you dint think so the law in other cases (not rapping obv but animal welfare to at least keep it relevant rather than driving!)  do hold professionals more responsible for their actions if they are found to be failing.


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## ycbm (5 January 2017)

popsdosh said:



			So what line do you take when the village idiot raps a horse because they have seen somebody else do it but can legitimately say oh I didnt know that would hurt the horse. If its wrong its wrong it makes no difference who is doing it IMO. The inexperienced amateurs are not immune from responsibility I really dont see the issue with that. Maybe any punishment will be tempered by it but the guilt is the same. However most of what we going on about is only a moral issue anyhow as none of it is illegal surprisingly.
		
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I don't feel the guilt is the same.


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## popsdosh (5 January 2017)

ycbm said:



			I don't feel the guilt is the same.
		
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Guilt is a moral judgement the crimes the same.


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## YorksG (5 January 2017)

FfionWinnie said:



			Yep commercial sheep breeds generally aren't fit for purpose. Wonder who bred them to be unfit for purpose...

You won't find a primitive sheep getting into those situations. 

Not just cos it's run off. 

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I was thinking about this today, given the number of sheep in the national flock and the number that make it to slaughter, along with the number who at least provide their replacements via breeding, then sheep are probably no more accident prone than any other species of domestic herbivore. It is perhaps a reflection of the nature of the husbandry of sheep in general that they are not "supervised" as much as other species are and so maybe, in some areas, the problems are not headed off as well as for other species.


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## FfionWinnie (5 January 2017)

FestiveG said:



			I was thinking about this today, given the number of sheep in the national flock and the number that make it to slaughter, along with the number who at least provide their replacements via breeding, then sheep are probably no more accident prone than any other species of domestic herbivore. It is perhaps a reflection of the nature of the husbandry of sheep in general that they are not "supervised" as much as other species are and so maybe, in some areas, the problems are not headed off as well as for other species.
		
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One only has to compare them to the scrapes the horses on this forum get into!


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## YorksG (5 January 2017)

FfionWinnie said:



			One only has to compare them to the scrapes the horses on this forum get into!
		
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Exactly


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## horselady (5 January 2017)

Have just got to say that I have never even carried a whip on a horse as I haven't needed to I understand that isn't cruel when used properly but stuff described here...horrific.


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## Tnavas (5 January 2017)

popsdosh said:



			Torture is an emotive word .
Im afraid most techniques are legitimate if used in careful hands and they will always carry on. Its when they are used by the inexperienced they become a problem. The one exception being hyper sensitising of the lower limbs there is no excuse!
		
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Rapping is illegal as far as I am aware - I believe it is in the FEI Rules. I'd never heard of pinch boots so am heading off to Google.


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## ycbm (6 January 2017)

popsdosh said:



			Guilt is a moral judgement the crimes the same.
		
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Exactly. And I don't feel the guilt is the same if someone hurts a horse out of ignorance doing exactly the same thing as another person does to gain competitive advantage .


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## Goldenstar (6 January 2017)

ycbm said:



			Exactly. And I don't feel the guilt is the same if someone hurts a horse out of ignorance doing exactly the same thing as another person does to gain competitive advantage .
		
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Again we are talking about the effect on the human .
To the horse that's irrelevant .
And it's the horses that matter not want the humans feel about things .


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## ycbm (6 January 2017)

Well, yes, that's where the discussion had moved on to. 

I didn't say it mattered less. I said I felt the guilt was less.

This all started with someone suggesting that the guilt of a professional showjumper is somehow lessened in the context of less knowledgeable owners causing similar amounts of problems through ignorance. I don't think that's true.


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## popsdosh (6 January 2017)

ycbm said:



			Well, yes, that's where the discussion had moved on to. 

I didn't say it mattered less. I said I felt the guilt was less.

This all started with someone suggesting that the guilt of a professional showjumper is somehow lessened in the context of less knowledgeable owners causing similar amounts of problems through ignorance. I don't think that's true.
		
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Actually if you go back through the post nobody actually said that!!

 its how the comments were twisted by others that could not accept that they may be doing harm as well ,some even suggested if you were doing harm it was excused by being inexperienced.


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## popsdosh (6 January 2017)




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## fburton (6 January 2017)

Goldenstar said:



			Again we are talking about the effect on the human .
To the horse that's irrelevant .
And it's the horses that matter not want the humans feel about things .
		
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It's all that matters to the horse, yes - but that's not _all_ that matters in the bigger picture. You personally may not consider the 'bigger picture' worthy of consideration, but it is the world all of us have to operate in and from which real consequences flow (e.g. punishment for wrongdoing) - and quite right too, imo. That's why I think that, although what the horse feels is crucial, limiting the discussion to just that is unhelpful.


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## popsdosh (6 January 2017)

Surely it could be rightly argued that some techniques are less discomforting to the horse if carried out by somebody who understands what they are doing and thats more likely in the top end rather than at the lower levels where they see something and dont understand how it is used properly ie: pinch boots.

I have never seen any 'Top' pro use rapping as described by some and to some I think it has become along with other techniques a bit of an urban myth, Im sure it happens and god help anybody I saw doing it. The problem is somebody hears of something and not knowing the full story invents their own way of doing things and as it moves down the food chain gets exagerated.  The method of rapping I was shown and was explained to me was by somebody at the top of the game using their top horse at the time ,at that level .5mm makes a difference and schooling technique is what its about. Do you not think professionals know there is no point scaring a horse as they dont tend to perform for you.


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## Asha (6 January 2017)

popsdosh said:



			Do you not think professionals know there is no point scaring a horse as they dont tend to perform for you.
		
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Absolutely agree. SJ horses are bred for the job, they are usually sensitive souls, and love to do it. However, introduce a bit of discomfort and most ( not all I accept) will have a dip in performance. How many threads do we see, with my horse has started refusing, and somewhere down the line they then establish changes such as arthritis etc etc. The fact that they are sensitive helps make them good jumpers, they don't want to touch the poles. Start showing them that pain = jumping they soon stop.

My lad is super sensitive, and very careful. He has an amazing back end technique. As a youngster he would dangle his front legs a bit. As well s correct training ( V Poles etc ) We put back boots on, ( recommended by a friend) , and guess what, his front end improved. It gave him something to think about, and helped him focus. I can assure you if they had hurt him in anyway, the rider would have been deposited.

Pro riders, need to make money. To do that they need correctly trained horses, that want to do the job, not have to do the job.


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## ihatework (6 January 2017)

Popsdosh and Xmas Morning Star I think I love you, lol!!

Seriously though I remembered last night a more recent experience of observing the bad rapping I described earlier - witnessed it the best part of 20 years ago by a local idiot 'trainer' and then 2 years ago when we went to Ireland on a young event horse shopping trip. Arrived down the lane to a well known production/selling yard to witness a horse being rapped before our very eyes. Not the one we we're going to see, but still - if they were doing that in front of clients what goes on behind closed doors?!!!! We didn't by the horse.


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## Casey76 (6 January 2017)

OK, I'm pleading ignorance here... what is the difference between pinch boots and "normal" wrap around fetlock boots? (or have I been inadvertently been using pinch boots for the past 10 years?)


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## popsdosh (6 January 2017)

Casey76 said:



			OK, I'm pleading ignorance here... what is the difference between pinch boots and "normal" wrap around fetlock boots? (or have I been inadvertently been using pinch boots for the past 10 years?)
		
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Not a lot to be honest it is difficult to tell the difference which is why possibly it was unfortunate they were in the title.
I think many are sold as pinch boots as theres a new market(latest fashion) and the Placebo effect is wonderful.


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## Caol Ila (6 January 2017)

I didn't say ignorance is a legal defense (it isn't).  I said insanity was, to illustrate the point that our criminal justice system punishes the intent to commit a crime as well as the criminal act itself.

Premeditation or lack thereof can effect the charges or sentencing, because modern jurisprudence presumes that planning and being fully aware of a crime you are committing is worse than not. "I didn't know there was drug money in that suitcase" might not get you out the rap, but if you can convince the judge and jury that you really didn't, you might get a reduced sentence.  Maybe.  

I said that a professional or experienced amateur who knowingly hurts a horse is, to me, committing a greater wrong than a novice who makes mistakes out of ignorance.  A moral wrong, not a legal one.  They are different.  The professional should have the expertise to know better.  Of course, the horse doesn't know the difference, but we, as humans, should deal with the problems differently.  That said, it depends on what it is.  I would say that some things are more black and white than others.  Whacking a horse's legs with a pole as it goes over a jump, or putting caustic substances on it to cause maximum pain, for instance, is not ambiguous; one need not be a horseperson to recognize that.


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## fburton (6 January 2017)

popsdosh said:



			Not a lot to be honest it is difficult to tell the difference which is why possibly it was unfortunate they were in the title.
I think many are sold as pinch boots as theres a new market(latest fashion) and the Placebo effect is wonderful.
		
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So it's possible that the only difference is _intent_?!


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## popsdosh (6 January 2017)

Caol Ila said:



			I didn't say ignorance is a legal defense (it isn't).  I said insanity was, to illustrate the point that our criminal justice system punishes the intent to commit a crime as well as the criminal act itself.

Premeditation or lack thereof can effect the charges or sentencing, because modern jurisprudence presumes that planning and being fully aware of a crime you are committing is worse than not. "I didn't know there was drug money in that suitcase" might not get you out the rap, but if you can convince the judge and jury that you really didn't, you might get a reduced sentence.  Maybe.  

I said that a professional or experienced amateur who knowingly hurts a horse is, to me, committing a greater wrong than a novice who makes mistakes out of ignorance.  A moral wrong, not a legal one.  They are different.  The professional should have the expertise to know better.  Of course, the horse doesn't know the difference, but we, as humans, should deal with the problems differently.  That said, it depends on what it is.  I would say that some things are more black and white than others.  Whacking a horse's legs with a pole as it goes over a jump, or putting caustic substances on it to cause maximum pain, for instance, is not ambiguous; one need not be a horseperson to recognize that.
		
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Dont disagree but then nobody has suggested they are OK but like all things it can blur around the edges as cruelty has a habit of being subjective. I do not think most riders would consider pinch boots to cause equine torture but some may.


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## ihatework (6 January 2017)

fburton said:



			So it's possible that the only difference is _intent_?!
		
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Intent of what?
Intent to cause hurt to your horse or Intent to improve jumping technique?
Because the crux of the argument boils down to 'are pinch boots abusive'


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## popsdosh (6 January 2017)

fburton said:



			So it's possible that the only difference is _intent_?!
		
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Intent to what?

Sorry now getting into matchy matchy.


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## ihatework (6 January 2017)

popsdosh said:



			Intent to what?

Sorry now getting into matchy matchy.
		
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Now matchy matchy is definitely abuse and should be banned!! Horses die of shame over that


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## fburton (6 January 2017)

ihatework said:



			Intent of what?
Intent to cause hurt to your horse or Intent to improve jumping technique?
Because the crux of the argument boils down to 'are pinch boots abusive'
		
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I meant intent to cause discomfort for the purpose of changing behaviour that leads to better jumping. So both, I guess.

However, if there really isn't a significant _practical_ difference between pinch boots and "normal" wrap around fetlock boots - as popsdosh seemed to be suggesting - maybe the difference lies elsewhere. (Which is why I asked about intent.)


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## ihatework (6 January 2017)

fburton said:



			I meant intent to cause discomfort for the purpose of changing behaviour that leads to better jumping. So both, I guess.

However, if there really isn't a significant _practical_ difference between pinch boots and "normal" wrap around fetlock boots - as popsdosh seemed to be suggesting - maybe the difference lies elsewhere. (Which is why I asked about intent.)
		
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But it's all about uncertainties isn't it?
Do pinch boots cause a horse discomfort. It hasn't been proven either way as far as I'm aware. If they do cause discomfort is this more or less than the discomfort of hitting a fence? Again unknown. If they do cause discomfort then is this sufficient discomfort to be abuse? I believe not from both observing their use and by the fact the FEI allow their use, although monitor their application closely.

Do pinch boots work? Again I don't know if any concrete evidence either way. My belief is they can help some horses although I wouldn't dispute there could be a placebo element too them. Pinch boots look virtually identical to regular fetlock boots, there aren't any hidden lumps/bumps in them, my understanding is their effect comes from how the strap is placed over the fetlock joint.

I think whether they work or not it pretty irrelevant really. Surely anyone paying the price and choosing to use them must think they work.

With any training tool there is potential to abuse, be that boots, whip, spur, noseband, lunging gadget etc. If someone is uneducated enough to think that inflicting pain/forcing a horse will improve performance long term then they are deluded. Yet good sympathetic riders who care greatly about horse welfare will use many of the above mentioned tools at some stage.

My point is, people should educate themselves first before jumping on any moral high horse. 

I think this has been a really good thread but will bow out now


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## fburton (6 January 2017)

Just to be clear, I'm not saying pinch boots _are_ abusive. I know almost nothing about them but would like to learn more.

I totally agree with your point about the potential to abuse any training tool.


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