# Smaller mares to larger stallions?



## Twiggy14 (23 July 2013)

Hi guys!
My first post in breeding! 
Just a quick q.
Have been told that if you have a, for example, 12.2hh mare, and put her to a, for example, 15.2hh/16.2hh stallion, the mare would carry the foal to the biggest she could and it would grow the rest when born. 
Is this correct, and have you got any experiences with this?
Thanks 
Charlotte.


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## applecart14 (23 July 2013)

Don't know that much about breeding but know that that is not best practice as the mare might have trouble with foaling due to the extra size of the foal and the smaller size of her pelvis and therefore the room available for a foal to pass through.

Isn't that how it normally works???


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## Twiggy14 (23 July 2013)

applecart14 said:



			Don't know that much about breeding but know that that is not best practice as the mare might have trouble with foaling due to the extra size of the foal and the smaller size of her pelvis and therefore the room available for a foal to pass through.

Isn't that how it normally works???
		
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Was told that the foal will only grow to the size of the pelvis or whatever it is (sorry don't low much about breeding either!) so will be small when born but grow when out of the mare?


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## JanetGeorge (23 July 2013)

Twiggy14 said:



			Was told that the foal will only grow to the size of the pelvis or whatever it is (sorry don't low much about breeding either!) so will be small when born but grow when out of the mare?

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Total *******s!  When the foal gets too big for the mare's uterus, she will 1) go into labour and turf it out prematurely, 2) prolapse (and probably die).  IF it has got too big for the uterus and she tries to turf it out - and assuming for a moment it's not so dysmature that it dies shortly after - it might have serious delivery problems (and be born dead), or it might just be born with horrific leg problems whic prevent it standing properly!  They might - or might not - come good on box rest - or maybe they'll only come good with some expensive veterinary treatment - or maybe they won't come good at all!!!

If you were lucky, you could keep the mare on short rations and she might not grow the foal too big before birth!  But of course that might result in her being poor when she foals!  Or you MIGHT fluke a safe delivery of an ok foal - do you WANT to gamble??


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## Twiggy14 (23 July 2013)

JanetGeorge said:



			Total *******s!  When the foal gets too big for the mare's uterus, she will 1) go into labour and turf it out prematurely, 2) prolapse (and probably die).  IF it has got too big for the uterus and she tries to turf it out - and assuming for a moment it's not so dysmature that it dies shortly after - it might have serious delivery problems (and be born dead), or it might just be born with horrific leg problems whic prevent it standing properly!  They might - or might not - come good on box rest - or maybe they'll only come good with some expensive veterinary treatment - or maybe they won't come good at all!!!

If you were lucky, you could keep the mare on short rations and she might not grow the foal too big before birth!  But of course that might result in her being poor when she foals!  Or you MIGHT fluke a safe delivery of an ok foal - do you WANT to gamble??
		
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Thank you for this!


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## Meowy Catkin (24 July 2013)

This is an interesting read.



			The Infamous Shire/Shetland Breeding Study

I say infamous because so many people quote this study when saying its okay to breed large stallions to small mares. I knew I had read it years ago and in my mind totally disregarded it for many reasons but I couldnt remember the exactly why. 

A friend emailed me the "study" today and honestly I had to laugh reading it. By todays standards this wouldnt even be a real study. 

This study was done in 1936. The first two shetland mares bred to shires lost both their foals due to no one being there when they foaled and the foals smothered in the sacks. While the mares did not die giving birth to them no gestation is given so we dont even really know if those were full term foals or ? 

So bascially this study is based off of the 2 shire mares bred to shetland stallions and one shetland mare bred to a shire. So realistically one live foal and people say this proves you can breed large stallions to small mares with no bad affects? 

I call it luck they call it a study. You can get lucky several times breeding a big stallion to a small mare. As I said before it works until it doesnt and when it doesnt it results in the death of the mare. 

You also have to keep in mind this was done with European Shetlands which are much different from American Shetlands (especially now in 2011!) These older type Shetlands were much stockier than todays Shetlands. 

The study also shows the Shetland mares were only given hay over the winter. I know if all I gave my pregnant shetlands was hay over the winter I would get small foals for sure. Shetlands tend to really go down in condition over winter if not given grain during the last few months of gestation. 

So could that be another reason the foal was not large? Who knows? Again a real study would be controlled and would use more than one mare and better notes would have been taken etc.

Im sure for 1936 this was probably cutting edge but by todays standards it is really lacking in scientific information. 

Just my thoughts on the study that is repeatedly brought up as making it okay to breed large stallions to small mares. To each their own but just know you are staking your mares life on a study done in 1936 and one live foal. Not good percentages in my book.
		
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http://forum.horsetopia.com/breeding-genetics/130403-infamous-shire-shetland-breeding-study.html
http://www.aquilapre.com.au/The mat...nd pony crosses - Walton and Hammond 1938.pdf


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## Casey76 (24 July 2013)

I always thought that you shouldn't really breed a mare to a stallion who was more than 1 hand in height taller.  Build also needs to be taken into consideration, especially if you are considering a natural cover (either in hand or paddock)

The whole thing about the mare limiting the size of the foal is total codswallop.


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## Crugeran Celt (24 July 2013)

I bred my 13.3hh Welsh SectDX to a 16.2hh TB stallion, 20 years ago with the ok from the vet and she delivered a healthy foal which only made 14.2hh. I still have her she was 20 on 16th July. Obviously she was a chunky mare to a very fine stallion so don't know if that makes a difference.


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## JVB (24 July 2013)

It's probably not something I'd risk but then I did see a very healthy foal the other week and the mare is small prob 13h welsh type and the sire was Wolkenderry and he's about 16.3, the foal seemed right size for the mare.


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## flaxen (24 July 2013)

Absolute rubbish. We were called out one day by the rspca to a field of gypsy ponies ( all around 13hh mares running with very heavy 15.2hh stallion ) one of the mares was having problems foaling and had been for hours, foal was long dead and with the mare heavily sedated and down we had a hell of a job foaling it, even after removing its head and 1 foreleg it was still a tight fit, we did eventually get the foal out bit by bit. Despite our best efforts to stabalise her and iv fluids the mare died shortly after removal of her foal. The foal was soo big that it took 2 men to carry its remains to the gateway to await disposal. The mare was about 13hh.


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## Gloi (24 July 2013)

There was somebody near me who used to cover her section A mare with a 16h thoroughbred stallion every year. The mare was very unhappy about being covered but always foaled okay and the foals made about 13.2


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## Rollin (27 July 2013)

I personally would not risk my mares.  I decided against breeding my very small 15.2hh pure bred CB mare to my 16.3hh lots of bone CB stallion I put her to a Shagya stallion instead, the foaling was still a bit tricky.

Having said all that, I know that Borderfame Prince Charming 16.3hh CB stallion produced some nice foals out of pony mares but via AI.  So did Baydale Juryman (CB) who sired the Pony Eventer Baydale Velvet.

There was a pony in Central Scotland called Mr Giddy, he was the result of the accidental covering of a shetland mare by a Clydesdale stallion.


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## pegasus1986 (28 July 2013)

I was always told dont go more than 2hh higher than the mare. I bred my 14.2 new forest to a 16.1 oldenburg and i got a very nice outcome of it.


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## Spring Feather (28 July 2013)

I've done it a few times, never had any problems whatsoever but I do breed like for like, so I'd never use a stocky stallion on a fine mare.  I know a number of breeders over here who do it most years and they've never had any problems either.


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## Kacey88 (28 July 2013)

I think that the build of the mare definitely should be taken into account, also if she is a maiden mare or not. Some stallions throw huge foals, I put my 15hh mare to a 16.2hh stallion, but he throws smaller foals even to similar sized mares.


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## ILuvCowparsely (28 July 2013)

Personally  I would not breed a 12.2 to a stallion more than 2 hands bigger than her.



  A mare 16h  bred to a stallion 15 hand, the foal born  to make 15.1 max.  So the offspring did grow to the dads height, he would have to stand vertically to get on her.

A stallion more than 2 hands bigger I would be worried about damage to her  private area.


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## twiggy2 (28 July 2013)

Rollin said:



			There was a pony in Central Scotland called Mr Giddy, he was the result of the accidental covering of a shetland mare by a Clydesdale stallion.
		
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seriously?


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## twiggy2 (28 July 2013)

not something i would do as i would think the risk too high

and surely you risk getting a foal the height of the mare with the build of the stallion, or the height of the stallion and the build of the mare, or any combination thereof?

why would you want to do it what would you hope to achieve?

the risk of getting something not suited to what you want is huge too.

bit like breeding a yorkie to a flat coat you would have no idea what would be born

i dont get why you would consider it


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## Capriole (28 July 2013)

twiggy2 said:



			seriously?
		
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I know of a shetland that was covered by a Warmblood (accidentally), well actually it's the progeny I know...cute pony but not the ideal breeding.


One of my mares has large foals, if I didn't know this and put her to a significantly larger stallion, or one that was known to throw larger offspring, I would be in trouble.


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## Spring Feather (28 July 2013)

twiggy2 said:



			why would you want to do it what would you hope to achieve?
		
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Show ponies.  That's a reason for some breeders I know who do it regularly.  In the hope of getting a taller horse or a smaller horse, is another reason.  Or to get a heavier or lighter horse.  




			the risk of getting something not suited to what you want is huge too.
		
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Well that's a risk regardless lol!




			bit like breeding a yorkie to a flat coat you would have no idea what would be born
		
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Ah now you're talking about crossbreeds.  That's something entirely different to breeding a small mare to a taller stallion, both registered with the same breed registry.  Breeding with the same mares over many breeding seasons to different stallions and within the same registry you do have a fairly good idea of what you'll get unless you're a novice breeder or aren't adept enough to see, for some reason, what the mare throws.


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## Megibo (28 July 2013)

I've heard aswell that you should go no bigger than 2 hands. Hopefully my mare will be OK! 
She's 13.3 chunky welsh D and assuming all goes well will be in foal to a 15.2 arab.


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## twiggy2 (28 July 2013)

Spring Feather said:



			Show ponies.  That's a reason for some breeders I know who do it regularly.  In the hope of getting a taller horse or a smaller horse, is another reason.  Or to get a heavier or lighter horse.  


Well that's a risk regardless lol!


Ah now you're talking about crossbreeds.  That's something entirely different to breeding a small mare to a taller stallion, both registered with the same breed registry.  Breeding with the same mares over many breeding seasons to different stallions and within the same registry you do have a fairly good idea of what you'll get unless you're a novice breeder or aren't adept enough to see, for some reason, what the mare throws.
		
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yes always risks with breeding, is there really a need to breed smaller to larger for show ponies are there not enough good show ponies to put them to each other without what could be the risk on mixing such difference in heights?

so would a 12.2 mare and a 16.2 stallion registered with the same breed registry?


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## Spring Feather (28 July 2013)

twiggy2 said:



			yes always risks with breeding, is there really a need to breed smaller to larger for show ponies are there not enough good show ponies to put them to each other without what could be the risk on mixing such difference in heights?
		
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Hmm I don't know as I don't breed show ponies but it would seem that the breeders I know of who do it seem to produce stock which is desirable to certain purchasers.  From what I see they breed like to like also and I've actually never heard of any of them having foaling/raising problems although I'm sure they are all careful about making sure the foal is getting enough feed from the mother.




			so would a 12.2 mare and a 16.2 stallion registered with the same breed registry?
		
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12.2hh mare to a 16.2hh well now we are certainly stretching things lol!  Having said that, yes I do actually know of one breeder who has a 12.2hh mare who she bred to a 16hh stallion (will that do, it's a little smaller than your 'interesting' example) and yes she did get the mare approved with the same registry that the stallion was licenced by so her foals all get full registry pink papers.

As I say, if you're familiar with what your mares throw then yes you do have a fairly good idea of what you _should_ get.  Breeding a fine boned mare to a heffalump of a stallion would probably not be a good idea, breeding a short mare to a tall lightweight (or similar type) stallion isn't the biggest risk in the world.


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## twiggy2 (28 July 2013)

Spring Feather said:



			Hmm I don't know as I don't breed show ponies but it would seem that the breeders I know of who do it seem to produce stock which is desirable to certain purchasers.  From what I see they breed like to like also and I've actually never heard of any of them having foaling/raising problems although I'm sure they are all careful about making sure the foal is getting enough feed from the mother.


12.2hh mare to a 16.2hh well now we are certainly stretching things lol!  Having said that, yes I do actually know of one breeder who has a 12.2hh mare who she bred to a 16hh stallion (will that do, it's a little smaller than your 'interesting' example) and yes she did get the mare approved with the same registry that the stallion was licenced by so her foals all get full registry pink papers.

the OP gave those sizes so was a genuine question not one that i thought up


As I say, if you're familiar with what your mares throw then yes you do have a fairly good idea of what you _should_ get.  Breeding a fine boned mare to a heffalump of a stallion would probably not be a good idea, breeding a short mare to a tall lightweight (or similar type) stallion isn't the biggest risk in the world.
		
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interesting stuff, i have been more involved at the other end of the deal really whet unexpected foals arrive so have rarely known the breeding, when i have been involved at both ends of the events it has been a breeding when both mare and stallion are of the same breed, type and stamp.although a friend has recently put a 15hh irish sports horse (on the heavy side) mare to a 16.3hh kwpn stallion-will see what happens as he is only 4 yrs so has more growing to do


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## DarenCogdon (28 July 2013)

Just come across this thread randomly.



Rollin said:



			There was a pony in Central Scotland called Mr Giddy, he was the result of the accidental covering of a shetland mare by a Clydesdale stallion.
		
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I remember someone telling me about this a long while back, but nobody ever came up with a picture to prove it, so I doubted its authenticity ever since.  But at least I know his name now!  Anyone got a pic?


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## Alec Swan (29 July 2013)

JanetGeorge said:



			Total *******s!  .......
		
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Yes,  quite,  and that clearly explains the theory of it! 

Alec.


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## Gloi (29 July 2013)

I used to know of a Shetland cross Fell which was a most peculiar creature. He was just like a Thellwell pony with a great big body but really short legs for his size. He was about 12 hands.


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## JanetGeorge (29 July 2013)

Alec Swan said:



			Yes,  quite,  and that clearly explains the theory of it! 

Alec.
		
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You know me, Alex - I like short answers!  One thing that appals me about the idea of putting BIG stallions on small mares is that folk do not consider some possible disasters on the day of covering.  It's a bit hard to detail here as no doubt the filter would put ********* instead of the names of certain parts of the stallion - and mare's anatomy - but think on it.  A BIG stallion is usually well-equipped - a small mare is usually small in her breeding 'bits' - and ANY mare might be particularly small there!  We had one 16.1 hand mare in who was shorter in the nether regions than most Shetlands - my stallion would have killed her if we'd let him go ahead with natural cover!  I hae a 16.2 maiden mare at present with a wierd (and very rare) problem in HER nether regions t the point we have been unable to AI her - and a stallion would rupture her!  And of course a great big stallion covering a small mare is putting more weight on her back than she's capable of bearing - even for a couple of minutes!  And that's 11 months before you have to worry about foaling difficulties!


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## Megibo (29 July 2013)

My mum mentioned to me earlier today of a post in a facebook group- a 2 month filly foal out of a small 14 hand mare...and the sire is a 17.2 friesian! 
The foal's eye level is the height of the mare's rump already.


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## Calcyle (30 July 2013)

Megibo said:



			My mum mentioned to me earlier today of a post in a facebook group- a 2 month filly foal out of a small 14 hand mare...and the sire is a 17.2 friesian! 
The foal's eye level is the height of the mare's rump already.
		
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In the picture gallery on here there is a Welsh A x Friesian, Niaba, I think. Accidental mating, foal is rapidly outgrowing the mare. Lovely little creature, the owner has posted a few updates, and it's really interesting to see what she turns into. Can't see why anyone would do a cross like that on purpose, though.


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## Louise12 (30 July 2013)

If you breed a very big horse with a very small horse, you are more likely to get either a very big or a very small foal, rather than a medium one (read Tesio/Mendel), so yes there is a high risk of dangers at foaling, in addition to the damage caused by covering that has already been mentioned


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## Rollin (30 July 2013)

twiggy2 said:



			seriously?
		
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Yes, when I met him he was working at a Pony Trekking Centre as he became bored with his job at RDA nr. Stirling.  I understand that Princess Anne presented him with a saddle but cannot fill you in on the history behind that.

Someone said to me "the stallion must have had very dirty knees"  I replied " That is what the vet said".


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## HaffiesRock (30 July 2013)

I don't know anything about breeding, but I did buy an ex broodmare a few years back. I bought her to back and we had no end of problems. Her pelvis was not right and no amount of manipulation helped. She was very thin and had a strange way of moving. Turned out my sweet little fine 14hh Appy had been used as a breeding machine to a 17.2 warmblood. She had had 4 foals consecutively by him, each of which was huge and she struggled to foal them all. Then they took everything out of her as they grew so quick. Poor pony was in too much of a state so I sold her as a companion as at the age of 9.


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## ester (30 July 2013)

Niabi on here was a foal born out of a section a by a friesian (not planned my current owner!) - she seemed to grow quite quickly. 

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/foru...-Niabi-Welsh-Sec-A-x-Freisian&highlight=niabi


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## Spring Feather (30 July 2013)

ester said:



			Niabi on here was a foal born out of a section a by a friesian (not planned my current owner!) - she seemed to grow quite quickly.
		
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Yes that's what I've noticed from the breeders I know who regularly breed smaller mares to taller stallions.  Their foals all come out small/normal size (relative to the mare) and then they very quickly grow at an increased rate compared to if the stallion had also been small.  These foals often require extra supplementation as the mare sometimes isn't capable of feeding the foal the full amount it needs.


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## Rollin (30 July 2013)

HaffiesRock said:



			I don't know anything about breeding, but I did buy an ex broodmare a few years back. I bought her to back and we had no end of problems. Her pelvis was not right and no amount of manipulation helped. She was very thin and had a strange way of moving. Turned out my sweet little fine 14hh Appy had been used as a breeding machine to a 17.2 warmblood. She had had 4 foals consecutively by him, each of which was huge and she struggled to foal them all. Then they took everything out of her as they grew so quick. Poor pony was in too much of a state so I sold her as a companion as at the age of 9.
		
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Your post has really upset me.  Poor mare.  This is not something I would ever do.

One of the reasons why (imo) the pure bred CB is in decline, is because CB mares make good crosses with warmbloods and TB's.  They produce big strong foals.

A colt we lost, not through foaling difficulties, weighed over 70kgs at birth, which was uneventful.


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