# Philippe Karl



## L.G.S. (2 February 2012)

I have read his book twisted truths of modern dressage, watched his dvds as well as practiced methods on my own horses (medium to PSG working GP), clients young horses and my 30+ clients and horses. 

At first I thought it looked odd and never thought it would work but it has made differences beyond anything I thought possible. Top dressage horses, behavioural problems, horses with bad conformation etc turned into relaxed light and happy horses. Even the most lazy, stuborn horses! My scores have gone from mid 60's to 74% in the last test (on average horses with average movement too)!!! 

What are other peoples opinions on him and his methods. I am aware people either love him or hate him.


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## Keenjean (2 February 2012)

I have ordered one of his DVDs recently, should arrive this week. I'm looking forward to watching


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## Booboos (2 February 2012)

I found his book incomprehensible. In my opinion it was a conceptual muddle, jumping from fairly ranty and vague criticisms of others to unhelpful, generalised advice. 

To be fair I have never seen his DVDs. He is based relatively close to me, but his system of accepting people to watch him train seemed insanely restrictive when I last looked at the details, so popping by to watch him live seems out of the question.

I've also read Baucher and not been very impressed with his ability to communicate training techniques - but by all accounts neither were his horses!


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## classicalfan (2 February 2012)

Big fan - but then he uses classical mehtods - allowing the horse to work lightly and relaxed.  Never any tension, never any force, beautiful to watch.


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## Sults (2 February 2012)

Am interested to hear peoples thoughts on the dvd as thinking of getting them. Do they start right at the start/basics?


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## L.G.S. (2 February 2012)

Yes they do. The classical dressage series 1-4 go through every movement from introducing the horse to lunging and inhand flexions to flying changes, piaffe, spanish walk and passage. 

The classical versus classique dvd is really good to watch too. It compares the teaching of Philippe to Christoph Hess (head of the training department of the German National Equestrian Training Federation). A debate using a chosen riding example from each and also an unknown candidate. 

The school of legerete dvds don't show as much of the basics in detail but show him teaching lots of different people through the levels. 

I am maybe a little obsessed haha! But his methods changed my horses so much


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## luckyhorseshoe (2 February 2012)

Im intrigued - sounds like the DVDs could be right up my street.

LGS - can you tell me a bit more?


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## Sol (2 February 2012)

I've watched the dvds, got the book etc - my last instructor taught along the lines of his methods. I like them, but tend to just ride now as works, throw in a few of his ideas, a few others, and what just seems to work. I like to remain flexible!


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## L.G.S. (2 February 2012)

Yes of course I can. His methods are based on the biomechanics of the horse using research from the ancient dressage masters so they are true classical principles keeping the horses welfare a priority. So no tight nosebands, over flexion, harsh training methods or any 'gadgets' of any kind just to name a few. He makes a clear method that respect the nature of the horse and that ANY horse can do dressage. 

He uses a different training scale to the German on we use. At the centre is respect to the horse. Around this are relaxation (legerete to the hand), balance (legerete to the seat) and impulsion (legerete to the leg). These three points are linked meaning you can't have one without the other. These points combined lead to legerete (lightness) enabling the rider to work on flexibility leading towards suppleness. Working on this leads to straightness and rhythm. All these lead to cadence and collection. 

The work starts with working he jaw using flexions in halt. This creates lightness to the hand and promotes self carriage. The hands are lifted to act on the corners of the mouth rather than backwards onto the sensitive tongue and lowered as an end result when the horse gives. This begins in hand and continues through ridden work. If the horse loses the flexions or resists it is halted and reflexed so work never becomes a battle. When the horse is relaxed voltes and lateral bend and lateral work are introduced. As work progresses the horse is asked to flex at the poll (through maintaining a light outside contact). 

It takes time and focuses on balance and lightness. The methods are so easy to follow. I have never seen a horse resist or become tense when this training is used.

To have one method to work perfectly on almost 40 horses I think is proof in itself that can work for any horse and rider. A lot of competition riders disregard it as at first you can't have a fixed hand position and judges won't accept it. It is not a quick fix but after practicing it for less than 5 months on my horses I now just need and upward vibration on the rein.

Hope that all makes sense!


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## luckyhorseshoe (2 February 2012)

That sounds really interesting and like something I would want to learn more about.

I am really determined to train my horse correctly and think the DVDs could be useful.

I think some of the things I have been doing lately with my trainer may be similar.

Is there a particular one you would recommend starting with to see if it's for me and give me some inspiration for my young lady?


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## trina1982 (2 February 2012)

Hi

This might help give an idea of what vol 1 in his DVD series is like...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8OgBfZhzm18

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IMi4aKMh7eo&feature=related


I have his 'twisted truths' book, and have been experimenting with what is suggested in the 'hands' chapter, and it really does change the way you ride, the way the horse responds etc. I have an interest in biomechanics anyway, and i found the twisted truths book fascinating. I am saving up for the dvd's!

Trina x


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## Zuzan (2 February 2012)

The system he uses certainly works for us..  I found his books very good..  I have his long reining book, Academic Art of Riding and Twisted Truths.. Its basically the French military school which is largely Baucherist tho not completely..  The DVDs are good but the thing to watch is that he makes it look very very simple and they don't give an realistic impression of real time in their progression.

Personally I think his amended scales of training make a lot of sense.


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## Booboos (2 February 2012)

It is worth pointing out that even Baucher was not a Baucherist having renounced his earlier training methods of mobilizing the lower jaw and neck of the horse through severe flexions. Ironically what led him to revise his position was an accident that reduced the strength of his legs, so he could no longer force the horses forwards (at his own time Baucher was criticised for causing horses to refuse to go forwards through the severity of the jaw and neck flexions). The later Baucher advocates the flexions only for the young horse.


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## L.G.S. (2 February 2012)

Philippe Karl bases his methods on all the classical masters though and not just baucher! He doesn't use a great flexion when the horse is moving only halt (same as carrot stretches)... And he certainly never FORCES horses forward.

I also second volume 1. It starts with the real basics in-hand and then ridden


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## L.G.S. (2 February 2012)

Philippe Karl bases his methods on all the classical masters though and not just baucher! He doesn't use a great flexion when the horse is moving only halt (same as carrot stretches)... And he certainly never FORCES horses forward.

I also second volume 1. It starts with the real basics in-hand and then ridden


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## Zuzan (2 February 2012)

Booboos said:



			It is worth pointing out that even Baucher was not a Baucherist having renounced his earlier training methods of mobilizing the lower jaw and neck of the horse through severe flexions. Ironically what led him to revise his position was an accident that reduced the strength of his legs, so he could no longer force the horses forwards (at his own time Baucher was criticised for causing horses to refuse to go forwards through the severity of the jaw and neck flexions). The later Baucher advocates the flexions only for the young horse.
		
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mm the term Baucherist is not a great one when one compares the his first and second manner.. they are very different.. I tend to forget that for most Baucherist implies his first manner when I really only think of his second..  ho hmm 

For those who aren't at all Baucherist.. his 2nd manner is subtler and softer.. as a result of a riding accident he could no longer use the force he used in his first..  There's a great little red book written by one his followers Beudant..  Horse Training Out-Door and High School..  terrific pics of pre Danloux / Caprilli jumping

Highly recommended also is Effective Horsemanship by G N Jackson (polo rider who trained at Mafra) also unfortunately out of print


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## Orangehorse (2 February 2012)

I have very recently come across this, and still at the tentative, beginner stage, but it is making a difference to my horse.  I feel a bit lonely as I don't know anyone else in my area.
Where abouts are you LGS?


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## Hurry Up (2 February 2012)

Orangehorse said:



			Where abouts are you LGS?
		
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In Philippe Karl's pocket perhaps?


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## L.G.S. (2 February 2012)

Hurry Up said:



			In Philippe Karl's pocket perhaps?
		
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Haha very amusing!!! Obviously not a fan of his methods

I'm in staffordshire


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## Hurry Up (2 February 2012)

I have never met him nor studied his methods.

You seem to be an uber-fan, judging by the threads you have started today.  Try not to repeat yourself so often, you will appear more trustworthy.


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## L.G.S. (2 February 2012)

Hurry Up said:



			I have never met him nor studied his methods.

You seem to be an uber-fan, judging by the threads you have started today.  Try not to repeat yourself so often, you will appear more trustworthy.
		
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Then don't get involved on something you know nothing about and don't judge others for their opinions. There was no need for that comment it just makes you look pathetic and bitchy especially as you have no knowledge or interest of the topic. 

An uber fan I am not. If a method works, gets my horses to improve while being relaxed and happy then I'm all for it I actually want to succeed in this sport.

Read the reason I actually wrote the thread... for OPINIONS on his method of teaching. I am not here to promote it. People asked and I answered. I actually expected a lot of people to object to his methods. Every horse I have tried it on it has worked but I expect there are ones that haven't been successful and I was interested to hear about those.


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## Orangehorse (3 February 2012)

I can't see why anyone would object - I think any objection would come from picking up a single thing and not getting the whole picture.  Sadly too common in the horse world.

I have to say that I was rather shell-shocked at my first introduction.  It was all so different; throw out all your dressage books!  However, the proof was in the riding and I watched my horse being ridden and he has never looked better, I could see he was using himself correctly and when I rode him it was like riding a new horse.

Even the farrier noticed that his shoes are wearing differently, for the better and the physio was very pleased with him at the last visit, so hopefully we are doing the right thing.

The DVD is very good, very clear.  The Twisted Truths of Modern Dressage is a bit of a mish-mash, although very interesting all the same.  

I am not a dedicated dressage person, and both me and my horse are getting on a bit now, but if I had a youngster I would definitly start him in this way (  ................ now don't start looking at For Sale sites).


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## Sults (3 February 2012)

Think i will order the series 1 now...!

Can someone please explain how you mobilise the jaw? and do you always come back to a halt to do this?


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## luckyhorseshoe (3 February 2012)

LGS - think i may have some online shopping to do!


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## Keenjean (6 February 2012)

My DVD arrived and I've just watched it, very interesting and easy to understand what he does and the reasoning behind it seems logical and makes sense to me... Now to go and have a go with my youngster and see what she makes of his in hand principles!


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## ihatework (6 February 2012)

If I'm honest I'm pretty ignorant about the whole thing but am interested in learning more. I might get the first DVD and see what I think.

I do have the DVD 'classical versus classique' and although it was interesting viewing I didn't come away feeling inspired!

Has anyone else seen it and what did you think?

CH's demo horse - I agreed with PK that the horse's fundemental way of going (esp the Piaffe/passage) was wrong, however I supported CH's view that the horse looked happy and relaxed in his work and fitted the CH description of 'happy athlete'

PK's demo horse - very impressive that such a bog standard horse could be taught those moves. However I supported CH's view that the moves were staged / circus like and the horse didn't look happy in it's work ... until they put up a fence and it then looked a different creature!

I found CH far clearer in explaining his views and I found PK disappointing in an educational way, he didn't offer constructive views, just ranted a lot!!!


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## dressage_diva (6 February 2012)

Out of interest, which of PK's dvd's is the best one to start with?

The classical dressage vol 1:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Classical-D...TF8&coliid=I2T7IP8H62MFPJ&colid=3R7DV20O6LRNI
OR
The School of Legerete Part 1:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Philippe-Ka...6RRI/ref=sr_1_6?ie=UTF8&qid=1328540328&sr=8-6

I'm interested in learning more about his methods, but am not sure which dvd to get?


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## ester (6 February 2012)

Was it PK who appeared in the video of a demo on a friesian, who really didn't respond to the flexions? Not sure if anyone can remember it was an old thread


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## ihatework (6 February 2012)

ester said:



			Was it PK who appeared in the video of a demo on a friesian, who really didn't respond to the flexions? Not sure if anyone can remember it was an old thread
		
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No I think that was Gerd Herschmann.

If you can get to see the GH basic biomechanics lecture that is utterly amazing.

The same couldn't be said of the bits of ridden clinics I watched!


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## ester (6 February 2012)

ah so it was thanks ihw

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=389302


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## TarrSteps (6 February 2012)

I feel similarly about Phillipe Karl as I do about Monty Roberts - lots of interesting stuff and methods which dovetail with my own interests and experiences, but the man himself puts me off!  Which is not to invalidate the information but in both cases they represent schools of thought that I think have much more realistic and sympathetic practioners.  As they say, riding is like religion and I'm naturally suspicious of fanatics and demi-gods. I understand that PK has to define his methods by their opposition to the current majority practice but I think it does a disservice to say it's the only light touch around.

Re the average horses, the same could be said of Eric Herbermann's _The Dressage Formula_ They don't come more average than his lot! 

(Disclaimer - I am not primarily a dressage rider and have a pretty eclectic background and practice so am perhaps less inclined than some to follow a single school of thought or even discipline. 

On a related note I saw Heuschman when he was doing the "anti-rolkur roadshow" with Balkenhol and Debbie MacDonald.  But the subsequent videos I've seen and some insider knowledge of his own riding background have not helped the cause, in my opinion.  Or maybe they have - by showing that have theories and knowing how things SHOULD be is not always the same thing as being able to put them effectively into practice.

One thing I have noticed about great horsemen is they are curious and interested in anyone working with horses well, even if they don't share all their beliefs and practices.  It makes me nervous when anyone says "My way is the only way to end up with a sane, sound, well trained horse."


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## Orangehorse (6 February 2012)

As I said before, I am very, very new to this and still having to absorb everything new concepts. 

I find it interesting that PK does clinics in this country and will only take Riding Instructors and they have to apply with a CV, so he is obviously only wants to teach the French method to educated riders who can see the whole picture and have lots of experience.  So although I found the DVD very clear, I would be wary of thinking that one 60 minute DVD is the whole story.

The end result - a light, obedient horse that can do the full range of dressage movements with ease - is the same whether you try the German or French way, but currently the most widely understood and taught is the German school and I for one didn't even know there was another method (shows my ignorance).  I only knew that I wasn't making any progress with my horse's schooling and I wondered why despite having lots of lessons.  This French method obviously suits my horse's conformation and he seems very happy with everything I am doing at the moment.


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## Booboos (6 February 2012)

Just to say that I am not too sure to what extent PK represents any current sort of French school. He has no pupils round here and no one knows of him.


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## Orangehorse (6 February 2012)

He was at the Cadre Noir for many years.


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## TarrSteps (6 February 2012)

I think we're using "Fench" (or French Lght) in the academic sense, as the name of the school of riding, not the country.  

It's not like the French are really a current dressage power, though.  Despite their military dressage/CN history.  They made a big fuss years ago now about starting to produce more dressage lines (since they can't ride anything for Teams that isn't French) but nothing really seemed to come of it.


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## Orangehorse (6 February 2012)

Ha!  Sport dressage v. classical dressage is a whole different can of worms!

Needs a different thread.


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## viola (6 February 2012)

L.G.S. - do you know if PK's methods are biomechanically similar to Jean Luc Cornille's Science of Motion? 
I do have PK's book/DVDs in my amazon basket ;-) - intrigued to click purchase now...


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## Keenjean (6 February 2012)

TarrSteps, I know completely what you mean about PK, I found him as a person a bit irritating but what he was saying/doing made sense and appeared to work. 

Im not saying I will do exactly as he does as I believe there is a balance between classical dressage and sport dressage for the rider who isn't looking to be an Olympian but I found his methods interesting and the way it can be related to an 'average' horse made me want to try some of what he did in DVD 1.


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## TarrSteps (6 February 2012)

Pixiepoo said:



			TarrSteps, I know completely what you mean about PK, I found him as a person a bit irritating but what he was saying/doing made sense and appeared to work. 

Im not saying I will do exactly as he does as I believe there is a balance between classical dressage and sport dressage for the rider who isn't looking to be an Olympian but I found his methods interesting and the way it can be related to an 'average' horse made me want to try some of what he did in DVD 1.
		
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They say you should never meet your heroes.  It's so personal preference, too, as I've met horsemen I really liked as people, knowing full well that's not the majority view.  By and large, too, people who are good with horses aren't always that good with people . . .

You are completely right, it doesn't take away from the methods, it just makes me a bit nervous when people get evangelical, especially when they have the gift of the gab and all of a sudden have people following them who perhaps don't have the experience or support around them.  The flip side is then, if/when it does go wrong then everyone around them blames the system, which isn't fair either.  There seems to be such a trend now to these big productions, which can turn people's heads a bit, particularly if they're not operating in a competitive atmosphere.  I don't think it's good for people, let alone horsemen, to be surrounded by acolytes and positoned against an enemy all the time. 

I think it's great when people examine different views and start to ask how and why things work, no matter what the original motivation.


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## TheMule (6 February 2012)

Separated from whatever you think of his methods, I'd like to say that PK is an exceptionally kind man with a deep love for his horses. He has been more generous to my family in a desperate time of need more than you could imagine and it upsets me to read that people will form a judgement on him based on no personal knowledge.


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## Keenjean (6 February 2012)

Woah woah woah, themule, I'm not saying he isn't kind, generous etc! I think your misinterpreting what I've written. At no point has anyone said they don't respect him for what he does or expressed dislike for him as a person. It's just personal preference, everyone prefers different people, I think he's a great horseman! And everyone forms opinions of people they watch/read about, it's human nature.


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## TarrSteps (6 February 2012)

Pixiepoo said:



			Woah woah woah, themule, I'm not saying he isn't kind, generous etc! I think your misinterpreting what I've written. At no point has anyone said they don't respect him for what he does or expressed dislike for him as a person. It's just personal preference, everyone prefers different people, I think he's a great horseman! And everyone forms opinions of people they watch/read about, it's human nature.
		
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This. 

I don't know him as a person and would never judge his personal life, his generosity, or his humanity.  I was merely commenting on how I personally, perceive him in his public performance, which is, after all part of what he's selling, and how it relates to my personal thoughts on how trainers are often promoted these days.  You have to admit he's been quite outspoken and is justifiably confident in his methods, so I doubt he would mind other people speaking their opinions in turn.  I'm very glad to hear he's lovely.


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## dressage_diva (6 February 2012)

dressage_diva said:



			Out of interest, which of PK's dvd's is the best one to start with?

The classical dressage vol 1:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Classical-D...TF8&coliid=I2T7IP8H62MFPJ&colid=3R7DV20O6LRNI
OR
The School of Legerete Part 1:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Philippe-Ka...6RRI/ref=sr_1_6?ie=UTF8&qid=1328540328&sr=8-6

I'm interested in learning more about his methods, but am not sure which dvd to get?
		
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Anyone?


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## Keenjean (6 February 2012)

I've got the legrete part 1 and it's conprehendible if not a little pricey!


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## Calvo (6 February 2012)

I found his DVDs a good insight to what he all about and the results in the last DVD is impressive for me. I do like Phillipe Karl.


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## dressage_diva (6 February 2012)

Pixiepoo said:



			I've got the legrete part 1 and it's conprehendible if not a little pricey!
		
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Thanks 



			
				Calvo said:
			
		


			I found his DVDs a good insight to what he all about and the results in the last DVD is impressive for me. I do like Phillipe Karl.
		
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By the last DVD do you mean the more recent "Classicial dressage" series?


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## Kelpie (7 February 2012)

if any of you guys are particularly interested in PK, he's running a teacher training course in the UK at the moment (and I'm one of the "auditors" on it).  Unfortunately as he does like people to sign up to watch the whole course, there are no new places for this course but he may well be doing another one starting in 2014.  

In the meantime, one of his established teachers is now coming over to the UK for regular clinics, over in Northants.  

TarrSteps, I know what you mean about the not meeting your heros thing.... but I couldn't resist    .... tho I have to say in this case I'm glad I have.  (Also on a Mark Rashid clinic in May - yikes, I hope that particular hero will also come through it OK in my mind, I'm such a big fan of his books....!)


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## TarrSteps (8 February 2012)

Ooh, where and when is the Mark Rashid one? Have you read his latest book?

I have to say, every time I've met someone I really admire, I've liked them - even if that's not the majority view!


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## Booboos (8 February 2012)

Out of interest does anyone know who PK trains at the 'top level', i.e. competing internationally, selected for teams, etc.? Or which horses which have been trained by him or his instructors are out competing internationally?

It's not a definitive indicator of a trainer's skill but these kinds of results are interesting to see. It was very interesting to see Jan Bemelmans take over the Spanish DR team and break all the stereotypical worries about PREs.


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## Pasha (8 February 2012)

After reading this thread I brought Classical Dressage Vol 1 - The School of Aids and I found is refreshingly simple 

The lungeing bit was great - exactly what I do with my boy, although I didn't know changing the rein like that was good for the reasons PK stated... it's just how i've always done it, but given me the confidence to do more... I tend to just lunge if i haven't got much time. But so nice to see a horse going like my horse and it's ok! Phew!

The in-hand stuff was completely new to me and I havent tried that yet, but the over-all principle of lifting the head and acting on the corners or the mouth rather than the tongue is exactly how I was trained and very similar to what Michael Peace got me to do with my boy when he came to visit us last year!

I also really like how he explained SI, renvers and travers.... off to buy the next one


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## TPO (8 February 2012)

TarrSteps said:



			Ooh, where and when is the Mark Rashid one? Have you read his latest book?
		
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http://www.amandabarton.co.uk/pages/mark.htm Clinic details for England and Scotland

P.S. What book is his new one?


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## zandp (8 February 2012)

My RI is one of the people he's training at the moment. I only started having lessons from her a few months ago but she's already made a difference to me and my 2 horses.  The older one who's always been heavy on the forehand is now much more light and flexible, I'm learning to ride well, rather than just being able to ride and my younger horse is being prepped for rebacking in a very thorough way, and she's loving the way she's being taught and then asked to do things.  

I do need to see his DVD's but have read some stuff he's written.


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## Orangehorse (8 February 2012)

I don't think PK does train anyone "at the top level" as such.  From what I can gather from his books, he is more interested in the art of classical riding for its own sake, not to go out and beat the competition.

Again, from what I read, he left the Cadre Noir in order to go around the world and teach riding instructors, for the sake of the horses.

As for Mark Rashid - well he may look like a cowboy, but by crickey I was impressed when I saw him at a clinic. I was lucky that there was a dressage lady as a pupil and he was able to sort her dressage problem easily.


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## TarrSteps (8 February 2012)

TPO said:



			P.S. What book is his new one?
		
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http://www.amazon.co.uk/Nature-Horsemanship-Mark-Rashid/dp/1616083506/ref=ntt_at_ep_dpt_4

Anyway, I thought you were trying to get rid of books.


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## Booboos (8 February 2012)

Orangehorse said:



			I don't think PK does train anyone "at the top level" as such.  From what I can gather from his books, he is more interested in the art of classical riding for its own sake, not to go out and beat the competition.
		
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To be honest I suspected that might be the case and it's this kind of stuff that bugs me. So the guy is brilliant but won't share his brilliance with anyone else competing at the top levels of the sport? Why ever not? Good trainers attract top riders whether they like it or not, has he been turning them down to concentrate on his lesser known pupils?

Presumably he has a yard full of amazing GP horses but won't sell them to anyone or allow anyone to ride them to represent his country (which is fairly average when it comes to dressage and could do with a serious boost). 

And if he is so keen on the art of riding for its own sake why doesn't he set up a charitable foundation and give out his lessons/DVDs for free? It's love for the art of riding as long as you're willing to pay him.


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## Zuzan (8 February 2012)

Booboos said:



			To be honest I suspected that might be the case and it's this kind of stuff that bugs me. So the guy is brilliant but won't share his brilliance with anyone else competing at the top levels of the sport? Why ever not? Good trainers attract top riders whether they like it or not, has he been turning them down to concentrate on his lesser known pupils?
		
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He does.. he trains teachers so that they can spread his knowledge..  far better than some elite competitor might..  



Booboos said:



			Presumably he has a yard full of amazing GP horses but won't sell them to anyone or allow anyone to ride them to represent his country (which is fairly average when it comes to dressage and could do with a serious boost).
		
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 I think having spent time and effort training his horse/s according to his methods I imagine someone else who did not ride that way probably wouldn't manage to get the best from them...  



Booboos said:



			And if he is so keen on the art of riding for its own sake why doesn't he set up a charitable foundation and give out his lessons/DVDs for free? It's love for the art of riding as long as you're willing to pay him.
		
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 He has to pay for his and his horse's keep


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## Kelpie (8 February 2012)

booboos, PK is actually quite involved with the FEI/ liaising with them on the structuring of dressage tests, etc, etc...... unfortunately, though, because he's got himself a bit of a reputation for challenging some of the FEI's practices (e.g. not banning Rolkhur, etc), it's probably fair to say that he is "contraversial" at top level.  

As I understand it from attending various of PK's lectures, actually there are a number of GP riders that go to him, but they tend to be for specific issues, when more mainstream competitive methods have been exhausted already.  So I'm not sure there is anyone competing at GP level who would say that PK is their only trainer, but that's not to say that he doesn't get involved in training people at that level. 

Also, one of the things I really like about PK, is his belief that you don't need to have a warmblood to be able to do piaffe/ passage, etc, etc.  If you look through his books, you'll see that he regularly takes on students (generally for a year at a time) and often those students will have perfectly "normal" horses that train up to do the GP movements in the year they are with him.  However, of course because we're still talking about horses not blessed with the naturally extravagant movement expected for GP competition, you won't see them out on the international dressage circuit.  

For me, the measure of a trainer is not just who he's trained to GP level, but to see him ride and to see how he is with his horses and his students, and the results that he can get with them.  It also says a lot to me that an individual is happy to train horses that are "nothing special" and not only believe that they can do the GP movements, but proove that they indeed can.


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## L.G.S. (8 February 2012)

dressage_diva said:



			Out of interest, which of PK's dvd's is the best one to start with?

The classical dressage vol 1:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Classical-D...TF8&coliid=I2T7IP8H62MFPJ&colid=3R7DV20O6LRNI
OR
The School of Legerete Part 1:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Philippe-Ka...6RRI/ref=sr_1_6?ie=UTF8&qid=1328540328&sr=8-6

I'm interested in learning more about his methods, but am not sure which dvd to get?
		
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The classical dressage vol 1 is best. It's clear, starts with and explains the basics


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## mik (8 February 2012)

Tarr I am pretty impressed with the french guys riding and schooling down here at the moment at the tour, they are training with  Hans Heinrich Meyer zu Strohen. https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=706053145


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## TarrSteps (8 February 2012)

They have some lovely riders but let's face it, their highest ranked rider is 93rd! (riding a Spanish horse no less!) Even CANADA has someone in the top 50! And their studbook is 22nd.

All that aside, this isn't really a discussion about competition dressage and that doesn't bother me one bit.  There are lots of great horsemen who don't compete and/or don't focus on the FEI disciplines.  It is interesting though that PK is quite open that FEI competitive dressage is not his main goal yet he seems so involved and invested in the process.  I realise he wants to effect change from the inside but I wonder if the two schools are even compatible now?


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## Kelpie (8 February 2012)

good question, Tarrsteps - I wish I knew the answer...... 

...... my take from hearing PK's lectures is that it wouldn't take that much in terms of changes to FEI rules to stop some of the "so called" abusive practices in some aspects of competitive dressage and certainly that is one of PK's goals - I don't think he can give up hope in terms of campaining to make changes and trying to prove that dressage training doesn't need to involve said practices.  However, that's of course my take after hearing him, I wouldn't like to pretend to know exactly how he feels about this.  

When you hear him speak, it's quite clear that he sees a lot in the competitive dressage world that really isn't what it should be..... stress fractures in jaws/ soap in the mouths so the judges can't hear the teeth grind, etc, etc..... but anyway, that stuff is another thread, I think.....


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## Booboos (9 February 2012)

I'll QR a number of points (and the reason I keep at this is because I find some of PK's approach hypocritical and that bugs me):

1. If you are a successful, proven trainer, everyone flocks to you, you'll have them beating down your door. People like Hubertus Smidt and Jans Bemelmans have produced over 50 horses each to GP, this is not a 'I produced my one and only horse to GP and can't bear to part with him' area of expertise. The thought that he is 'not interested' in training these people is disingenious.

2. To attend his clinics you need to be vetted and you need to pay at least 50 euros a day. If he was serious about disceminating knowledge he could at least make attendance free to anyone who is interested. 

3. He is not interested in top competition...other than criticising others and attempting to advise the FEI. If he is really not interested then he should leave those who are interested to get on with it. If he wants to contribute to the process he should be part of it. He is so knowledgeable about competitions WITHOUT competing? That is quite a feat! What is his competition record? How many horses has he competed to GP and with what results? 

4. He doesn't compete, he doesn't judge, he doesn't train...because it is all done wrongly! There is an Aesop's fable about the fox that couldn't reach the grapes so said they were sour.

5. From the little I have seen all trainers train all types of horses, it's just that some types of horses are more likely to be competitive and are the naturally  choice of the competition rider. I completely agree that the messure of a trainer is not just how he rider but how his students ride - where are his students? A couple of years I ago I looked at his website and he had no training clinics in France - where did this idea that he is a well known name in France come from? The guy is in his 50s-60s? He should have hundreds (if not thousands) of pupils around - at least some of these would compete even by default!

6. Top names go to him for specific problems: fair enough, who would that be? Where do they talk about it?


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## TPO (9 February 2012)

TarrSteps said:



http://www.amazon.co.uk/Nature-Horsemanship-Mark-Rashid/dp/1616083506/ref=ntt_at_ep_dpt_4

Anyway, I thought you were trying to get rid of books. 

Click to expand...

Thank you

Means more room for new ones


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## Kelpie (9 February 2012)

ok, Booboos, you don't like him..... so fine, that's your perogative.  I try and avoid internet arguments nowadays


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## dressage_diva (9 February 2012)

L.G.S. said:



			The classical dressage vol 1 is best. It's clear, starts with and explains the basics 

Click to expand...

Thank you


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## Booboos (10 February 2012)

Kelpie said:



			ok, Booboos, you don't like him..... so fine, that's your perogative.  I try and avoid internet arguments nowadays 

Click to expand...

Oh no I don't know him, but I don't like his approach. He is not just a trainer who goes about his business and makes his ideas available through books and DVDs. He actually seems to spend a lot of his time, effort and publications trashing everyone else. Other trainers, riders and judges appear to be quite useless at best, or harmful to their horses at worst according to him. If you are going to be THAT critical of other people, start up petitions, expect to be consulted by governing bodies, and generally set up yourself as an expert, you need to have some justification for adopting that position. When someone claims to be a horse expert and know better than others I would want to see evidence to back it up, i.e. they are a great rider themselves and/or a great trainer of horses and/or a great trainer of riders. Failing that why exactly should I believe he knows what he is talking about? Riding is a practical pursuit and the proof of the pudding is in the eating so to speak! If he has never actually rider a GP test in competition, never trained a horse or a rider that has done so, in what sense exactly is he supposed to be an expert?


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## PooJay (10 February 2012)

Booboos said:



			Oh no I don't know him, but I don't like his approach. He is not just a trainer who goes about his business and makes his ideas available through books and DVDs. He actually seems to spend a lot of his time, effort and publications trashing everyone else. Other trainers, riders and judges appear to be quite useless at best, or harmful to their horses at worst according to him. If you are going to be THAT critical of other people, start up petitions, expect to be consulted by governing bodies, and generally set up yourself as an expert, you need to have some justification for adopting that position. When someone claims to be a horse expert and know better than others I would want to see evidence to back it up, i.e. they are a great rider themselves and/or a great trainer of horses and/or a great trainer of riders. Failing that why exactly should I believe he knows what he is talking about? Riding is a practical pursuit and the proof of the pudding is in the eating so to speak! If he has never actually rider a GP test in competition, never trained a horse or a rider that has done so, in what sense exactly is he supposed to be an expert?
		
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Do you have to compete or have trained someone that has competed to be exceptionally good at something though? 

Isn't the point of what he teaches is that a lot (but not all) of competition dressage training is not always in the horses best interest? The whole RK debate being a prime example. The manufactured gaits of these horses (such as Totillas) seem to wow the judges but from a classical perspective the way these horses are trained is considered cruel and not born from a partnership between horse and rider but achieved through force.  PK would not do well infront of the judges that award the higher marks to these horses because he works the horse in what he considers a correct and productive way and not in a way that would damage the horse long term. 

If he did compete now, it would probably be counter productive for him. Imo (and it is only my humble opinion) i think he's doing the right thing. He's training teachers who educate young and new riders in the classical ways and he's trying to stop these young riders aspiring to be like the RK riders within the sport. He may not be able to change the system now (but he obviously is trying) but if he changes the views of up and coming riders then potentially the future of competition dressage may change and we may see competition dressage go back to being about a partnership between the horse and rider and the horse working in it's optimum and correct way and not just to create a pretty picture for the judges.


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## Blackadder (10 February 2012)

If you are near West Yorkshire area, check out Ravenroyd Farm website.


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## Booboos (10 February 2012)

PooJay said:



			Do you have to compete or have trained someone that has competed to be exceptionally good at something though? 

Isn't the point of what he teaches is that a lot (but not all) of competition dressage training is not always in the horses best interest? The whole RK debate being a prime example. The manufactured gaits of these horses (such as Totillas) seem to wow the judges but from a classical perspective the way these horses are trained is considered cruel and not born from a partnership between horse and rider but achieved through force.  PK would not do well infront of the judges that award the higher marks to these horses because he works the horse in what he considers a correct and productive way and not in a way that would damage the horse long term. 

If he did compete now, it would probably be counter productive for him. Imo (and it is only my humble opinion) i think he's doing the right thing. He's training teachers who educate young and new riders in the classical ways and he's trying to stop these young riders aspiring to be like the RK riders within the sport. He may not be able to change the system now (but he obviously is trying) but if he changes the views of up and coming riders then potentially the future of competition dressage may change and we may see competition dressage go back to being about a partnership between the horse and rider and the horse working in it's optimum and correct way and not just to create a pretty picture for the judges.
		
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Yes I would expect someone who claims to be an expert trainer to be either an accomplished rider himself, or have horses or students competing at the top level - otherwise how do you know he is any good? I don't have any competition experience past medium, nor have I trained horses to any decent level nor do I have any students working at top level...could it be that I am a top trainer?!!! I could collect my CC comments from HHO and publish them (I would probably end up with more text than PK's book which is very heavy on photos and general ranting), would that make me a top trainer?!!!

The "I am brilliant, but others fail to see my brilliance, so I won't bother" is not an argument I find very convincing. There are plenty of not rollkured horses doing very well, with no problems from the 'prejudiced' judges, e.g. Uthopia, Mistral Hojis, Valegro, Fuego, to name but a few. Or does PK contest that these horses are not well trained and happy athletes either?


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## PooJay (10 February 2012)

Booboos said:



			Yes I would expect someone who claims to be an expert trainer to be either an accomplished rider himself, or have horses or students competing at the top level - otherwise how do you know he is any good? I don't have any competition experience past medium, nor have I trained horses to any decent level nor do I have any students working at top level...could it be that I am a top trainer?!!! I could collect my CC comments from HHO and publish them (I would probably end up with more text than PK's book which is very heavy on photos and general ranting), would that make me a top trainer?!!!

The "I am brilliant, but others fail to see my brilliance, so I won't bother" is not an argument I find very convincing. There are plenty of not rollkured horses doing very well, with no problems from the 'prejudiced' judges, e.g. Uthopia, Mistral Hojis, Valegro, Fuego, to name but a few. Or does PK contest that these horses are not well trained and happy athletes either?
		
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But he is a very accomplished rider, he has trained horses past "medium" but medium wouldn't apply to him because he's not competitive. I have only watched his first DVD and some snippets of him riding here and there and i have to say i am impressed and would really love to train with him. I think at the end of the first dvd there's a clip of him riding a horse that he's trained for a number of years (if this is wrong, i stand corrected, i lent the dvd out and haven't seen it back so it's been a while since i've seen it! ) but that level of work was beautiful and so harmonious to watch. 

If he wasn't a good trainer, why on earth would people be fighting to get on these courses with him - equally, why would they be paying 50 euro's a day to train with him? Surely we would've heard just how rubbish he actually is if people were coming away from the training they'd paid for dissatisfied?

I don't think he contests that ALL competition dressage involves force (i did mention that in my original post) but that there is a lot of room for improvement within the sport - which he clearly is fighting for and i think that's a real positive and should be admired.  

I'm afraid i'm not up to date on how he feels about Carl Hester and friends but i would be very interested to hear about it if anyone knows 

I am not hugely competive at all, i do the sport for the love of it and equally i do not seek out trainers who have a proven track record within competition because good competition results don't always follow a good solid training regime.


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## TarrSteps (10 February 2012)

PooJay said:



			If he wasn't a good trainer, why on earth would people be fighting to get on these courses with him - equally, why would they be paying 50 euro's a day to train with him? Surely we would've heard just how rubbish he actually is if people were coming away from the training they'd paid for dissatisfied?
		
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I refer you to my earlier Monty Roberts comment.  

I'm actually quite pro PK's methods (well, not "his" but of that school) as they dovetail more with what appeals to me, BUT I don't make the mistake of thinking that training in an "alternative" system will necessarily make one more competitive in the dominant system.  It MIGHT but let's face it, if the point is to win, then you go to the trainer who is producing winners.

What I find interesting about "classical" riding now (leaving aside definitions) is that the people who train that way say they don't care about the status quo but then get upset that it's not they way they want it to be in the ring and they're not always competitive.  I understand that it's upsetting to think horses are being trained in ways that you personally find repugnant but the fact remains you can only ever control your own situation (and horses), you can't force other people to share your views.  If competition is not the benchmark then why compete or even care what happens in competition?  

I also see people (NOT PK) who take refuge in their "classical" approach to explain lack of success when that's not really the issue, but more to do with generally not up to snuff riding.  I'm sure PK would address these people accordingly but it's what many of us on the lower rungs SEE and it informs opinions.


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## PooJay (10 February 2012)

TarrSteps said:



			I refer you to my earlier Monty Roberts comment.  

I'm actually quite pro PK's methods (well, not "his" but of that school) as they dovetail more with what appeals to me, BUT I don't make the mistake of thinking that training in an "alternative" system will necessarily make one more competitive in the dominant system.  It MIGHT but let's face it, if the point is to win, then you go to the trainer who is producing winners.

What I find interesting about "classical" riding now (leaving aside definitions) is that the people who train that way say they don't care about the status quo but then get upset that it's not they way they want it to be in the ring and they're not always competitive.  I understand that it's upsetting to think horses are being trained in ways that you personally find repugnant but the fact remains you can only ever control your own situation (and horses), you can't force other people to share your views.  If competition is not the benchmark then why compete or even care what happens in competition?  

I also see people (NOT PK) who take refuge in their "classical" approach to explain lack of success when that's not really the issue, but more to do with generally not up to snuff riding.  I'm sure PK would address these people accordingly but it's what many of us on the lower rungs SEE and it informs opinions.
		
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I didn't read the monty roberts comment but i can guess what you mean by it 

I like to think i could take a mixture of classical and "competition"??? and use what works for my horse. I also don't find competition dressage repugnant, hyperflexion and force however i do and i find it an insult to the sport. 

I can certainly see that some people do take refuge in the classical approach, but there are always going to be people that make excuses for themselves in any sport, in fact in any walk of life. They can't admit that they're actually, just a a little bit **** at what they do!  However, i don't believe PK falls into that category and just because he doesn't compete, it doesn't make him any less of a trainer or rider. 

i imagine that the "classical" riders probably feel so strongly about the way some competition horses are trained purely because they don't like to see horses in the industry abused for the glory of winning....i should imagine they'd all like to compete but not at the cost of the horse which makes it probably a tad hard to swallow when horses that are trained using hyperflexion (or whatever they call it now) win. 

Incidentally, i don't think all "classical" trainers are quite so sensitive and softly softly either....but the end to the approach usually ends up with the horse working properly over it's back and moving as it should without the exaggerated gaits of some of the horses we see in competition nowadays.


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## Orangehorse (10 February 2012)

I agree with you TarrSteps.  We have to remember that dressage competitions are sport, and if you want to win you have to fit the picture.

The Spanish Riding School and the Cadre Noir train horses in dressage, up to and including the Airs Above the Ground, for art's sake, not for sport, for displays and to keep the art of classical riding alive.  Dressage was not envisaged as a "sport" but to have a well trained, horse for its own sake, when riding horses was only for the rich and those with time to spend perfecting their art.  The common man didn't ride horses, mostly.

The sport of dressage started out to test the training of horses, but it has developed so that riders want a horse that will fill the "picture" of what the judges are looking for.  So you might have a perfectly trained horse, but doesn't have natural paces, particularly extensions, or conformation then it won't gain high places in competition.  For instance,you might have a cob that is doing excellent, correct dressage, and is capable of doing all the movements, but how would it get on in an international dressage competition?  The sport of dressage has gone past just correctness.  Also the sport of dressage has fashions. Didn't one famous horse tend to bolt in the collecting ring?  Yet its power was then considered the correct way to go.  In otherwords, a powerful warmblood is bred to be able to do well in modern dressage competitions.

Would it be too  simplistic to say that it is like comparing ballet to dance theatre?

What PK teaches is the training for any horse to be able to be taught dressage, which should be like physiotherapy for the horse to enable him to carry the rider with ease for many years, not necessarily win competitions.  His horse Odin who features in the Art of Riding, had reached the age of 29 when the book was reprinted in 2009.

Sorry, a bit of a ramble!


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## PooJay (10 February 2012)

Orangehorse said:



			I agree with you TarrSteps.  We have to remember that dressage competitions are sport, and if you want to win you have to fit the picture.

The Spanish Riding School and the Cadre Noir train horses in dressage, up to and including the Airs Above the Ground, for art's sake, not for sport, for displays and to keep the art of classical riding alive.  Dressage was not envisaged as a "sport" but to have a well trained, horse for its own sake, when riding horses was only for the rich and those with time to spend perfecting their art.  The common man didn't ride horses, mostly.
		
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I was under the impression that classical dressage came about through war and the need for riders to be agile


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## Hollycatt (10 February 2012)

I think it looks very interesting and that it looks like it has a lot to offer for the average rider or serious competition rider alike. One thing I often find about trainers is that they don't teach a system. In many respects I always felt that what I needed was to be taught how to teach the horse, not just a lesson once a week where we work on improving things but I don't actually learn how to train the horse.

However I would be very suspicious of riders that say they go there for a year and train their horses to GP.  I mean - that sort of training doesn't happen in the space of 12 months   The physical strength and flexibility of the horse required to do some advanced movements correctly would be difficult to build in 12 months - so is some of this 'GP' work more of a circus trick as such?  Genuinely asking not being bitchy. For example if the horse understands the question, I can see it is possible to teach passage  - but would this actually be a correct passage?  Now maybe this leads a fight into what is correct or not between competition and classical dressage which is not really my aim. And also remembering that many horses may produce a passage that is the best they will ever produce but would be a 1 or 2 in competition as they simply do not have the athleticism.  

I can see many reasons why students would not compete at top level. Lack of horsepower to be competative, money etc etc. Very few horse and rider combos can produce all of the GP movements and put them TOGETHER within the scope of a test.  In an advanced test movements come up very, very quicky and it may seem to the non competitive schooling at home 'yes my horse is at GP I can do half pass, changes etc' - but in reality the rider has done about 5 circuits of the school to get them!


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## ScarlettLady (10 February 2012)

I had a trainer who used PKs approach when I was 15, this trainer told me that in 4 yrs time my horse and I would be at a level to start Piaffe, not 4 months....
 a friends trainer watched the end of this lesson and told me I could do it in 4months, so I left my trainer, and trained with the other one, being young and nieve. Unfortunately that wrecked my horse, and my riding.  
2 yrs later I returned to the PK method trainer, before she passed her work on to someone else who I continued to train with, guess what, 4 years later my horse and I could piaffe... 

Its not about achieving quick fixes and results....


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## luckyhorseshoe (10 February 2012)

Scarlettlady - I think you've hit the nail on the head!


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## Booboos (10 February 2012)

What sorts of numbers of people attend his demos?

Off the top of my head I think Anky had about 4k at the BD convention, Schmidt slightly less I would say at 3.5k, Bemelmans had low numbers the first year at about 2k but then word got round that he was very good and he had a lot more the second year, about 3.5. The Bartles I didn't attend but watching it on TV numbers looked low-ish, maybe 2k?


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## TarrSteps (11 February 2012)

Booboos said:



			What sorts of numbers of people attend his demos?

Off the top of my head I think Anky had about 4k at the BD convention, Schmidt slightly less I would say at 3.5k, Bemelmans had low numbers the first year at about 2k but then word got round that he was very good and he had a lot more the second year, about 3.5. The Bartles I didn't attend but watching it on TV numbers looked low-ish, maybe 2k?
		
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To be fair though, especially in your first example, I'm not sure everyone came to pay homage to Ceasar.  Being successful AND contentious will put bums in the seats better than anything, especially the first year. I know some people go to George Morris clinics just to see if he'll make someone cry.  

Also, people charge wildly different rates which can affect venue size, ticket prices and promotional effort.  Although, again in your first example, I know exactly what they were charging at the height of their fame as my bosses looked into getting her (you pay for them both) but they decided they couldn't sell enough tickets in Canada to cover the fee and the long list of "green room extras".  The clinician also stipulated a minimum audience size, which we could not guarantee, with the proviso she could pull out if sufficient tickets were not sold even on the day of!

I know that PK is contentious but he's not the right "sort" of contentious to pull huge numbers.  That is true of lots of people who give very good value for money.  How many people does Stephen Clarke usually bring in?  Mark Todd? We got maybe 1.5 k over three days the last time he came to Canada.  Monty Roberts did that in one evening when he came just after his bestseller came out.   George Morris always brings them in but again, I think you're usually talking sub-2k.  I would be VERY surprised if the Mark Rashid (even with a spiffy new book) clinics in May do the sorts of numbers you're talking about but I'll be happy to be wrong.

And some big names prefer to teach "closed" clinics open only to the participants and their connections. (I once had a complete fit because our FN bankrolled one and I was very annoyed our membership money was used to bring a big name trainer to Canada specifically without allowing members of the public to benefit.  ) The reasoning is it allows them time and space to do things the way they want and doesn't make the paying participants nervous.  I can kind of see that, especially if you can get enough money from the riders to not have to have auditors.

I don't think you can necessarily correlate gate proceeds and "success" on other fronts.


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## Booboos (11 February 2012)

No, not necessarily but as previous posters suggested that people flock to PK I was wondering what sorts of numbers they had in mind (since he doesn't have high profile riders, or high profile horses, or high profile results, if he doesn't have high numbers of followes why exactly should he have any influence and demand change?).

Anky was very interesting to watch. I do agree with you that many people went because she was controvercial, but I think she changed the mood of the crowd. With the guinea-pigs she (and Sjef) advised very reasonable stuff (some of which has made its way into BD tests, like the give and retake inside rein) and she got massive applause from the crowd - if they weren't with her at the start they were with her at the end.

Bemelmans had low attendance because he was lesser known (this was pre Spanish team transformation) but was, in my mind, the best value for money. Very good trainer, but also very good at putting his point across to the rider and the audience - enteraining without being disparaging, encouraging without becoming disinteresting, talkative without becoming boring. When he rode it was just incredible fun (I don't know if you have heard of this already but he did flying changes while lying backwards on the horse to push his tail down so that he could get more engagement - trememdous fun!).


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## Rouletterose (11 February 2012)

Booboos said:



			Yes I would expect someone who claims to be an expert trainer to be either an accomplished rider himself, or have horses or students competing at the top level - otherwise how do you know he is any good? I don't have any competition experience past medium, nor have I trained horses to any decent level nor do I have any students working at top level...could it be that I am a top trainer?!!! I could collect my CC comments from HHO and publish them (I would probably end up with more text than PK's book which is very heavy on photos and general ranting), would that make me a top trainer?!!!

The "I am brilliant, but others fail to see my brilliance, so I won't bother" is not an argument I find very convincing. There are plenty of not rollkured horses doing very well, with no problems from the 'prejudiced' judges, e.g. Uthopia, Mistral Hojis, Valegro, Fuego, to name but a few. Or does PK contest that these horses are not well trained and happy athletes either?
		
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PK was ecuyer at the cadre noir saumur for thirteen years, it is one of the most prestigious horsemanship schools in the world. Some of the riders have reached the highest levels of international sport being olympic or world champions.

PK spends 4 or 5 months of the year all over the world teaching, he hasn't the time to keep his horses at top level training now as he is away so much.

Watch every one of his cd's and read his books. When watching his cd's just look at the master and see how his horses perform for him, no tension, no tightness.

There are so many teachers around and a lot of them charge around the same as PK, but they are not as good as him, he has to earn a living why should he put in a days work teaching and not charge? would you?  His aim is to teach riders how to achieve lightness and balance and harmony without rollkur,tight nosebands, side reins, draw reins etc, that is only a good thing surely?

As for why should you believe in him? who cares whether you do or not? it's a free country and he has plenty of followers.


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## Rouletterose (11 February 2012)

Kelpie said:



			good question, Tarrsteps - I wish I knew the answer...... 

...... my take from hearing PK's lectures is that it wouldn't take that much in terms of changes to FEI rules to stop some of the "so called" abusive practices in some aspects of competitive dressage and certainly that is one of PK's goals - I don't think he can give up hope in terms of campaining to make changes and trying to prove that dressage training doesn't need to involve said practices.  However, that's of course my take after hearing him, I wouldn't like to pretend to know exactly how he feels about this.  

When you hear him speak, it's quite clear that he sees a lot in the competitive dressage world that really isn't what it should be..... stress fractures in jaws/ soap in the mouths so the judges can't hear the teeth grind, etc, etc..... but anyway, that stuff is another thread, I think.....
		
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Exactly^^^^^well put, he will never give up trying to stop the abuse by some of the 'so called' top riders.


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## Cortez (11 February 2012)

For those arguing about competition VS just talking about others, PK did compete at a high level (on Odin, who is/was a French-bred Lusitano, at Intermediaire level) many years ago, and either won or placed very highly. This was whilst he was at the Cadre Noir. FWIW I like a lot of what he says re the abusive methods now seen at some dressage competitions, but without instruction to back up his methods I find a lot of his writing a bit incomprehensible.


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## Booboos (11 February 2012)

Rouletterose said:



			As for why should you believe in him? who cares whether you do or not? it's a free country and he has plenty of followers.
		
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I would imagine the OP cares which is why she asked for opinions on PK! But feel free to start a new thread in which you point out how much you don't care for my opinions, it is indeed a free country.


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## L.G.S. (11 February 2012)

Booboos said:



			I would imagine the OP cares which is why she asked for opinions on PK! But feel free to start a new thread in which you point out how much you don't care for my opinions, it is indeed a free country.
		
Click to expand...

I am interested in opinions! In my opinion being a part of the cadre noir for so long plus competing is a fair background to begin 'on his own'. I agree on your point of high level competitors though. If in his position I would want a high level competitor or to compete myself just to show it can be done, classical dressage is relevant today and can present horses of top level in a better way than 'conventional' training always keeping horse welfare as a priority. However, perhaps he and his instructors do have top level competitors? I am not in a position to say! 

Regarding FEI and judging etc can you or would you want to be a part of something you don't agree with? Plus it would take so much time away from what he actually wants to achieve. The welfare of the horse as a priority, the FEI guidelines adhered, to resulting in incorrectly trained horses marked down, promoting correct classical training. Competition dressage after all originated from classical roots. Do we see this now? RK, tight nosebands etc. Short cuts, harsh methods and all going against biomechanics of the horse. Top level dressage should be something to aspire to. It should be near perfect not have horses constantly behind the vertical. How can you train a horse over bent then go into the arena and expect it to be in front of the vertical and in self carriage? No not all do BUT a lot do. Dressage: training the horse to do what it does naturally on command... PK wants to bring back the real dressage, the beauty and harmony. 

No one gets everything right but that was the way he chose to do things. I'm not judging his business ethics I'm more interested in his actual methods. Maybe it would be better to do larger demos for free to allow more people to be educated or at least see his methods in real life? But he has to earn a living and to a point can see the view of limiting as many people will go to one and become an 'expert'. The main point of the 'vetting' is to educate a small amount of people very correctly especially regarding the instructor courses. 

I think any input in improving the sport, training methods and horse welfare is a great thing. It doesn't matter who does it and how they do it but changes need to be made and why not start with the FEI? They are the ones with the power to change things not a few 'top riders' or one man.


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