# Dog Groomer has injured our puppy



## alison247 (22 September 2013)

I took my 10month old puppy to a local salon in Sevenoaks,
She seemed very happy to see me when I returned to pick her up wagging her tail etc
When I got home she was visibly shivering.
We thought she was cold due to losing her coat and the weather has changed here.
The next day she was still shivering but also kept turning round and looking at her tail.
We thought her tail looked a bit wonky, not sitting central on her back.
Over the weekend she got worse, shivering and looking at her tail and whimpering.

We took her to the vet on Monday to ask is it possible the groomer has held her up by her tail to clip her backside and dislocated her tail. She thought it was her anal glands bothering her. Her screams on examination were horrendous 
Took her home on metacam.
The next day she refused to leave the house and did not do no 1 or 2 all day.
Took her back to vets. saw a man this time who thought she had pain in her lumber area.
More painkillers.
Today took her back because she is crying all the time looking at her tail and not going to the loo.
Diagnosed with slipped disc.
Monday MRI and consultation with neurologist.
MRI scan £1,975.00
Consultation £300.00
Operation if needed plus £4k
Do I go back to the dog grooming salon and ask what happened?


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## bonny (22 September 2013)

I would have thought it would be difficult/impossible to prove anything, even the vet thought it was her anal glands bothering her to start with and the dog groomer is hardly going to admit to injuring your dog, if indeed she did.....


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## PucciNPoni (22 September 2013)

Ooooohhhh where to start!

First of all, I'm a dog groomer.  I've groomed for ten years (so far) and have seen all sorts of weird and wonderful things in my salon.  Accidents can and do happen, particularly so with puppies who are not used to being groomed.  You don't say whether this was your pup's first visit or what breed it is.   A ten month old pup who is experiencing their first ever professional groom will behave VERY differently from one that has been to the salon 3 or 4 times - a ten month old pup is also an adolescent and behaves very differently from one that is 4 months and very submissive or one that is 18 months and has lots of grooming miles and is a calm recipient rather than a matted wild animal that is scared of anything that makes as much noise as vibrating clippers, loud dryers, barking dogs et cetera.  I've also known juvenile Lhasa apsos who want their coats shaved off to make it easier to maintain - and then the dog who isn't used to the feel of their own tail on their back will then attack their own tail and strip the hair off so that it's a bleeding mess!  I went thru hoops to try to help a client find the solution to this one as we tried different shampoos, had the vet check the a/g, checked for any sign of injury (all were negative) - and it turns out that the dog just hated a naked back!  But the owner still wanted it clipped short so started to learn to live with this dog stripping it's own tail every time it was clipped.  Happened every time. 

Injuries and accidents can happen with dogs who are great on the table and just a slight movement can result in an injury.  It's impossible to tell just now what may have happened, but if there is an injury which was a result from a grooming accident, then hopefully your groomer will co-operate with you and their insurance will pay up.   However, they will need as much information from you - and to get the best result you  need to approach them without being confrontational.

I would have thought that an obvious mishap would not go unreported, but sometimes something happening could be so fast and seem so insignificant at the time that it won't seem worth remembering if you know what I mean?  If there was a pre-existing injury or weakness there then a minor knock or slip could cause a more serious injury, but even an experienced groomer might not realise what's happened.  If the dog is standing and behaving much the same way at the end of the groom as before, then they wouldn't think to report anything.  (I think my clients must think I'm nuts because I tell them everything the dog isn't quite as cooperative over a visit as they might have been in  the past - or indeed if they're cooperating TOO well when I expect a bit more of a lively behaviour - and often I've been able to get them to go to the vet and find that the dog has a medical issue caught early - but I wouldn't have known to even report anything unless I knew the dog's behaviour very well from a long history).

Some breeds of dogs are prone to slipped disc (again, some lhasas, dachshunds and breeds with longer backs).  It IS entirely possible too that the dog suffered the injury just before or after the visit to the groomer.  I can remember one groomer telling me that she'd clipped a dog and it went away good as new.  Owner called later that day to say that there was blood POURING from a paw... Groomer was mystified as to why this wasn't noticed by herself or the owner when leaving (especially as it was a light colored floor and dog jumping all over the owner).  Then it turns out the dog went with owner to the nearby play park and there was lots of broken glass.  But it was the groomer's fault  

But having said all of the above, there are groomers through inexperience and or negligence that do cause injury.  Sadly it does happen.  It's one of the reasons I'm personally in favour of the new scheme coming out from PIF (formerly PCT) which is a star rating system for groomers.  It is there to help the client choose a potential groomer based on their experience, their qualifications, their continued learning and training.  It's a costly exercise for the groomer, but because there has been so much bad press as of late, incidents of dogs being injured or killed in a groomer's care, I think that something must be done to help weed out the good from the bad..

So, my suggestion to you is to contact the groomer - let them know that there was a problem, be as non confrontational and factual as possible.  Your groomer will perhaps ask to speak to the vet and want to have a written statement from them with itemised bills (for their insurance purposes).  

I hope your pup is feeling better soon and that it's nothing too serious.


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## LovesCobs (22 September 2013)

Hi, you say when you got home. Could something have happened on the way home? How do you travel her? I'm only asking as I looked after a small dog for a friend (can't spell the breed, starts with chi lol) she jumped off the sofa (very low sofa) and slipped a disc. Any drop or twist could result in it. There's no way of knowing when it happened. It will be well worth asking the groomers if anything happened however small. I hope she recovers well (my friends dog recovered completely after being completely paralysed)


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## s4sugar (22 September 2013)

Wagging her tail when collected does suggest she was ok then. 

A slipped disc can happen getting into or out of a car, jumping on/off a sofa or just twisting wrongly when playing and of these getting into a car is probably the most common as the dog often jumps and twists. (I have a lot of dealings with basset hounds)
I'm surprised an MRI was done before an x ray as that would be most vets approach IME. Dogs can recover from slipped discs. Have you been told no jumping & no off lead exercise?


As a groomer, like PucciNPoni, I tell the owner if I've noticed anything and have told owners to go to the vet ASAP when I've picked up signs of pyometra or, for example, glaucoma. In one case I spotted discharge with the owner still present and refused to do the bitch. Handed them my phone (few mobiles then) to call their vet & they went straight to the surgery - somehow it was my fault they had a vet's bill.


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## PucciNPoni (22 September 2013)

s4sugar said:



			Wagging her tail when collected does suggest she was ok then. 

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My thoughts too.


FWIW, I had an elderly dog suffer a slipped disc.  Haven't a clue how it happened, but it coincided with a large group of people coming to my house for a meal, possible she got a knock from someone walking and didn't see her.  She recovered really well with a bit of rest, no surgery.  Cost me a single trip to the vet, some steroids and a sedative (to keep her quiet for a day).  She was as good as before within a week.  Hopefully you'll have a similar result.

I did a wee straw poll on a grooming forum to ask other groomers how they respond to owners coming forth with reports of injury, and or do they report mishaps in the salon.  The reply was a unanimous "always be upfront and honesty is the best policy" from several groomers of varying degree of experience and skill.  So don't assume that a groomer will "not admit to wrong doing"


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## Umbongo (22 September 2013)

As stated, it may have happened at the groomers but it also may not have, I am not sure that you could prove it did happen. I would phone the groomers and ask if she had an accident whilst there, although I would expect any groomer to have told you so on collection if she did.

Slipped discs can happen just from getting into/out of the car, jumping up/down stairs/sofa. How do you travel her? Is she loose in the back seat/boot? Could she have twisted/fallen over when going round a bend or braking?

They can recover with pain relief and rest, depending on the severity. Obviously an MRI and a consult with a neurologist would be gold standard, but I do not understand why your vets have not x-rayed her already? 

Has she not been to the loo since Monday???

Good luck!


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## gina2201 (22 September 2013)

Another dog groomer here, what has been said above is all very true and relevant. It would help to have a little more information, particularly the breed of your pup and was this their first visit to a groomer? As other have said as she was happy to see you and wagging her tail suggests she was not in pain or had dislocated anything at this point! Fingers crossed for a quick recovery.


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## alison247 (22 September 2013)

Thanks for your replies.
I have felt all along the dog groomer will not say if she dropped her, held her up by her tail or whatever. 
The vets say from how tender she is in her lumber region she has been dropped onto her back.
They offered X-rays with GA at £400 but said it would not show discs etc so to go for MRI on Monday.
She is not going to the loo as it hurts to squat. She has had her bladder emptied at vets and has been given laxatives. She really whimpers when she goes 
She did wag her tail when I collected her but was quite and shivery in her crate in the car on the way home.
We tried to walk her the next morning and she kept lying down and crying.
This was her third visit to this salon. She is a Cavachon- Cavalier king Charles x Bichon


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## {97702} (22 September 2013)

In all honesty I would get an opinion from another vet!  I would be very uncertain about a practice which suggested anal gland problems then escalated that to pain in lumbar region then to a slipped disc so quickly without any evidence, particularly since they have suggested such expensive exploratory treatment.  Presumably she is insured so cost will not be an issue.


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## SusieT (22 September 2013)

If she was in good form when you picked her up, the liklihood is that she was injured on the way home in the car. IF she had a slipped disc when you picked her up she would have been unhappy then as well as it is a serious injury.


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## LovesCobs (22 September 2013)

as others have said, I would get other opinions on how it could happen (maybe from whoever does the MRI?) The slipped disc the dog I was looking after was severe (did not need surgery as it popped back into place) but needed physio and lots of work for him to walk again; did not happen because he was dropped. he did just jump off a low sofa and slip or twist. I'm not saying nothing did happen at the groomers, it may have but your vet is being very presumptuous. where is the MRI taking place? I was sent to Leahurst in Liverpool ad those vets took over his care so you may get a second opinion after the scan. I suggest doing this first and then contacting the groomer. if I was the groomer I'd want to know and I'd go through everything that happened with you. as people on here have said.


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## PucciNPoni (22 September 2013)

I think actually the OP has already made up her mind that a) the groomer is at fault and b) that the groomer would never own up to it if it DID happen there and therefore is justified in just making the assumption and not wanting any further investigation.


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## {97702} (22 September 2013)

PucciNPoni said:



			I think actually the OP has already made up her mind that a) the groomer is at fault and b) that the groomer would never own up to it if it DID happen there and therefore is justified in just making the assumption and not wanting any further investigation.
		
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I think you are right there PP


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## GeeGeeboy (22 September 2013)

Sorry to hear about your puppy OP. I'm just curious to know why you assumed the groomer wouldn't have told you if there had been an incident?


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## Camel (22 September 2013)

I think the title of the post would indicate OP 's assumption of the groomers guilt! Hope your pooch is okay op 

X


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## PucciNPoni (22 September 2013)

Camel said:



			I think the title of the post would indicate OP 's assumption of the groomers guilt! Hope your pooch is okay op 

X
		
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Assumption is one thing.  Having one's mind up despite many suggestions and advice is very much another.  I'm not sure the point of posting unless she wanted to just have a rant.


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## TeamChaser (22 September 2013)

Difficult situation. Once had my cocker spaniel clipped and had to have friend pick him up for me as I was called out to work. Noticed that evening that his eye was swollen and very sore. Friend hadn't noticed when they picked him up .... not a dog person! Took him to vets next day and vet confirmed he had suffered trauma to the eye - either a pretty hefty knock or poke in the eye. I didn't ask groomer what had happened (mainly because it wasn't noticed when he was initially collected), but nor did I ever use that dog groomer again. Maybe this is unfair but given the injury, vet seemed to suggest that there would have been some force - it could of course have been a complete accident and easily done with a wriggly dog I guess but the fact is they didn't willingly offer up an explanation. If they had, I would have been absolutely fine about it - accidents happen

My point is that whilst there are many reputable groomers out there who would of course behave exactly as some of you on this thread have described (I have used several who are absolutely fab and I would trust completely), there are some who may be less honest for fear of repercussion

I can understand how upset OP must be - aside from any cost, it must be very upsetting to see a loved pet so distressed and in pain.  I hope she's feeling much better soon x


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## s4sugar (22 September 2013)

PucciNPoni said:



			Assumption is one thing.  Having one's mind up despite many suggestions and advice is very much another.  I'm not sure the point of posting unless she wanted to just have a rant.
		
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And changed her story when it was pointed out the mongrel was ok when picked up. I hope groomers in the area are able to access this page with her original post. 
Sounds like the vets are on a money trip -  MRI before x ray? - that has to be a first.


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## TeamChaser (22 September 2013)

s4sugar said:



			And changed her story when it was pointed out the mongrel was ok when picked up. I hope groomers in the area are able to access this page with her original post. 
Sounds like the vets are on a money trip -  MRI before x ray? - that has to be a first.
		
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Is there any need for that? How do you know the groomer wasn't at fault in this instance?


Clearly you have veterinary experience so I'll bow to your superior wisdom on the x ray v's MRI debate


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## Honey08 (22 September 2013)

Poor OP, you are really getting a hard time on here.  Its awful when you're upset and worried about your puppy, and you're watching it hurting.   I would go back to the groomers, tell them what happened, as calmly as you can, see what they say.  They may be really useful and helpful, you never know.  If not, you're no worse off than you are now.  Hope that puppy is on the mend and more comfortable soon.


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## Camel (22 September 2013)

I think you lost public support OP when you referred to you dog as a 'Cavachon' fancy Dan hybrids tend to go down like a cup of cold sick on HHO! 
Xx


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## PucciNPoni (22 September 2013)

Sorry no - I offered a fair amount of support, mixed in with some possibilities for the OP to consider.  I don't think my support "went away" until it was obvious to me that the OP wasn't really looking for more than a bit of a rant about the horrible dog maiming groomer.  An injured dog is an injured dog, and she has my full sympathy as does the dog.  But if she is genuinely looking for an answer as to whether or not she should approach the groomer - what is her end goal? Is it to confront the groomer and say "you did this...now pay up" or is it to find out perhaps what did happen in hopes of giving the veterinary staff something to consider prior to expensive MRI?  She said she assumes she won't get a straight answer out of the groomer, and THAT's what gets my knickers in a twist.


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## s4sugar (22 September 2013)

To Teamchaser - 
We don't know the groomer was not at fault but the title of the post and the change to the story suggest that the groomer may not be.
 I do, unfortunately, have extensive knowledge of disc problems with bassets ( not my breed but I do rescue) and an x ray can often show enough that an MRI is not needed. I have never heard of an MRI referral before an x ray.

Or did you mean the mongrel bit as you highlighted it? IME people who get conned into buying crossbreeds with made up names are usually not people I want as clients.


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## PucciNPoni (22 September 2013)

I felt the breeding of the dog pertinent and interesting.  I couldn't care less whether it was a purebred dog or not.  Many breeds (and cross bred dogs) can suffer from back injury. 

No we do not know if the groomer was at fault or not.  But when it comes to any old illness, injury or other ailment, somehow the fault is put on to the groomer.  Can't tell you how many times a day I hear about groomers getting blamed for stuff that had nothing to do with grooming. Yes, they can and do cause problems sometimes - but not nearly as folk seem to think.  In fact, more often than not we as groomers find pre-exisiting issues and raise them with the owners.  Sometimes it's followed up and dog's lives are saved, treatment obtained.  And sadly very often it goes on to deaf ears and dogs suffer.


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## TeamChaser (22 September 2013)

Wouldn't disagree with you at all PucciNPoni - groomer I use now raised a couple of things when she clipped Barney for the first time, which I knew about, but was very grateful for the obvious care she'd taken

In fairness, I don't think OP was trying to convey at all that groomers are bad people - but she clearly has her suspicion about this one in question and she may well be right. As much as some feel she is blindly making accusations, some are equally as blindly leaping to the side of the defence!

Oh and s4sugar, your posts have potentially changed my opinion of your trade far more than the OP's! Rest assured, neither my Cocker Spaniel (I believe I can call him that?!) or my "Splurcher" will be requiring your services!


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## PucciNPoni (22 September 2013)

TeamChaser said:



			Wouldn't disagree with you at all PucciNPoni - groomer I use now raised a couple of things when she clipped Barney for the first time, which I knew about, but was very grateful for the obvious care she'd taken

In fairness, I don't think OP was trying to convey at all that groomers are bad people - but she clearly has her suspicion about this one in question and she may well be right. As much as some feel she is blindly making accusations, some are equally as blindly leaping to the side of the defence!

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I would hope she doesn't think that groomers are bad.  But other than an injury (which may or may not have occurred while being groomed) she doesn't give any character information which might make it suspicious that the groomer a) injured the dog and b) would have reason to be dishonest about the event.

For example, a dog could have slipped while scrabbling and trying to get out of the bath tub and fallen on to it's back.  I've had dogs literally try to take a flyer out of the bath while it's tethered there - and then just about garrotte itself on the grooming loop.  If it was the former, I wouldn't think to mention it because the incident was a fairly insignificant one.  However, if questioned, I might say "yeah, dog tried to jump out of bath, slipped and fell over".  

If it was the latter (garrotting it self) then I would mention it upon the check out procedure as I would feel that a significant enough event that would be worthy of mentioning. 

I find it sad that just because something may have happened that the proprietor is assumed to be a liar before even being questioned.  Again, that's why I stressed the "non confrontational" method of asking.
		
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## s4sugar (22 September 2013)

TeamChaser said:



			Wouldn't disagree with you at all PucciNPoni - groomer I use now raised a couple of things when she clipped Barney for the first time, which I knew about, but was very grateful for the obvious care she'd taken

In fairness, I don't think OP was trying to convey at all that groomers are bad people - but she clearly has her suspicion about this one in question and she may well be right. As much as some feel she is blindly making accusations, some are equally as blindly leaping to the side of the defence!

Oh and s4sugar, your posts have potentially changed my opinion of your trade far more than the OP's! Rest assured, neither my Cocker Spaniel (I believe I can call him that?!) or my "Splurcher" will be requiring your services!
		
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Where have I defended the groomer - I have just pointed out what the OP stated - & then changed. Sounds like a change of vet is needed and I would bet money that the first question they asked was about insurance. As PucciNPoni says accidents can happen but this OP hasn't asked the groomer but just assumed the Groomer did something. Dogs can injure themselves at home, in a car, on a flat field or getting out of bed but a dog wagging when picked up but unable to wag when getting home doesn't sound like anything the groomer did.


I refuse to pander to the puppy farm stupid names for mongrels trend and turn them away as I have found, having groomed professionally for over 30 years, that people who support poor breeding are not ones I want as clients. I don't apologise for this.


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## PucciNPoni (22 September 2013)

Something else to consider - sometimes groomers are "afraid" to tell an owner that a dog is a nightmare to groom.  Not me personally - if the dogs are horrific, I want the owner to not just know about it, but DO something about it.    I may even offer some solutions such as training tips, an offer to have the dog come for frequent visits etc. 

However, some groomers, for fear of losing custom and or have the client think that their dog is less than perfect, might conceal their dog's behavioural issues.  You know the customer is always right, and Poopsie is always a perfect angel.  

But if confronted with "my dog was injured" the truth may well out.


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## PucciNPoni (22 September 2013)

Oh, and another thing!  

Many groomers who belong to a professional body (such as EGG, SPGN, PIF) all have a voluntary code of conduct they are asked to adhere to.  Of course, that means diddly squat to the dishonest lot, but there ARE many of us who do take this seriously.  Further, many of those who belong to professional bodies will also belong to grooming forums where sharing of information and ideas is a main lifeline for some groomers who work alone.  They will usually get the idea from other groomers what that code of conduct is and it is always encouraged to be forthcoming with the client in all cases. 

So, does your groomer belong to a professional body?


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## Cinnamontoast (22 September 2013)

I was in a groomers the other day. The dog being groomed wasn't restrained in any way. It promptly fell off the table because the groomer was totally ignoring it. She did not subsequently mention this to the owner. It was a little dog, bichon, maybe, I dunno. She has also cut two dogs in the past couple of weeks. Just balancing out the whole thread


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## SusieT (23 September 2013)

pucciponi-I think you need to change your practices if your clients dogs are able to garrot themselves or slip over on such a regular basis... A groomer with the dog in full control (albeit restrained by a device) should have their hands on the dog and prevent such incidents. Just leaving them tethered in the bath is not a great idea!

s4sugar-as an xray invariably shows up very little and doesn't show the cord, it's actually money grabbing vets insisting on xray before mri that is the problem-mri will show if any changes you might see on xray (in the case of discs-unlikely to be picked up) are actually significant...
OP-if she is that sore  something is going on, you will know better after the tests. Doesn't sound groomer related to me tbh, even holding a dog up by its tail for grooming shouldn't really do any damage!


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## PucciNPoni (23 September 2013)

SusieT said:



			pucciponi-I think you need to change your practices if your clients dogs are able to garrot themselves or slip over on such a regular basis... A groomer with the dog in full control (albeit restrained by a device) should have their hands on the dog and prevent such incidents. Just leaving them tethered in the bath is not a great idea!

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Oh Susie, when I say it happens on a regular basis?  I'm saying that even the most diligent of groomers can and do have mishaps.  In a ten year grooming career I would say I have a pretty darn good safety record.  If anything in fact, I'm a huge advocate for safety in my work place.  I am also a huge advocate for keeping the professional grooming industry a professional, safe, one, keeping the groomers up to date with training and making sure the whole integrity of the industry is one that can be relied upon to give dogs a safer, happier grooming experience.

I don't have accidents on a regular basis like you like to imply.  Sure, I had the young dog try to clothesline herself (garrott is not quite right) and I'm glad I had the safety measures in place that I did or it'd have been a completely different outcome.  I don't have dogs slipping and falling - but it DOES happen.  Elderly dogs, young nervous dogs, dogs that simply stand like a rigid statue but can't seem to keep their feet under them - spend some time in a grooming salon before you make comments like that please!

My point of using that as an example was to say that  Yes, these things do and can happen - and I for one would always mention (or own up to) any mishap.  So SuzieT, keep it in context please. You make it sound like my listing a few possibilities makes me a careless person.  I do not for a single second think that there is a groomer out there that has been working for more than five minutes has not made a mistake or had an injury of some sort.  And yes you are right that if an accident does occur, it is time to review what happened and how to prevent it from occurring again.


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## PucciNPoni (23 September 2013)

cinnamontoast said:



			I was in a groomers the other day. The dog being groomed wasn't restrained in any way. It promptly fell off the table because the groomer was totally ignoring it. She did not subsequently mention this to the owner. It was a little dog, bichon, maybe, I dunno. She has also cut two dogs in the past couple of weeks. Just balancing out the whole thread 

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And that IS appalling.  I've never once for a moment suggested that there was no way an accident (in and that case was pure negligence!!! and then to not even tell the owner is even more shocking to me) could have occurred.  

How do you know the groomer cut dogs in the past two weeks?  Sorry, just out of curiosity - do you work there?  Are you a friend?  What were the circumstances in which they were cut? Is the groomer new/inexperienced?

Believe me when I say I know for a fact there are some really *****E groomers out there - there is no regulation for the industry at present so anyone with a set of clippers can hang a shingle and call themselves a groomer.  Regulation won't make a bad groomer good, and it would take some time before the system works. There are plenty of good experienced groomers out there who will resist change (ie having to pay for the licensing seems to be a bit stopping point) and there are some groomers that will slip through the cracks.  But I do think that having a set of guidelines, where everyone is following the same code of conduct, the AWA is adhered to, etc etc, will make it generally a safer place for dogs.  The good groomers won't change anything of what they're doing and will just see it as a "tax" on their business.

It will also mean that grooming itself will become more expensive.  So price shoppers will be shocked when their low budget groomers either up their prices to afford to come in to line with the new regulation...or they will cease trading....or...they may just become cowboys and operate without the "license" so it will be very much a case of buyer beware.

Sorry, I'm prattling on a bit.


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## alison247 (23 September 2013)

s4sugar said:



			And changed her story when it was pointed out the mongrel was ok when picked up. I hope groomers in the area are able to access this page with her original post. 
Sounds like the vets are on a money trip -  MRI before x ray? - that has to be a first.
		
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There is absolutely no excuse to be so rude.
Is it only acceptable if a pedigree dog was injured?
My assumption she has been injured by the dog groomer is that when I got her home she was shivering, which I put down to her being cold.
Any dog injured or not would wag its tail when seeing its owner.
My dog was dying of cancer and after a major op on deaths door still wagged his tail at me.
I did not come here for a rant. I came here to ask for advice re the dog groomer. I think she should have told me if she had to handle my puppy roughly or dropped her.
I would not want another dog injured this way!
I am not insured- silly me. I expect I will also be berated for that as well as buying a mongrel!


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## Calcyle (23 September 2013)

alison247 said:



			There is absolutely no excuse to be so rude.
Is it only acceptable if a pedigree dog was injured?
My assumption she has been injured by the dog groomer is that when I got her home she was shivering, which I put down to her being cold.
*Any dog injured or not would wag its tail when seeing its owner. *
My dog was dying of cancer and after a major op on deaths door still wagged his tail at me.
I did not come here for a rant. I came here to ask for advice re the dog groomer. I think she should have told me if she had to handle my puppy roughly or dropped her.
I would not want another dog injured this way!
I am not insured- silly me. I expect I will also be berated for that as well as buying a mongrel!
		
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Actually, in a lot of cases, a slipped disc could render a dog physically incapable of wagging it's tail, which is the point they were making.


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## twiggy2 (23 September 2013)

s4sugar said:



			I refuse to pander to the puppy farm stupid names for mongrels trend and turn them away as I have found, having groomed professionally for over 30 years, that people who support poor breeding are not ones I want as clients. I don't apologise for this.
		
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you would do be better to educate rather than belittle/insult -it would prove more beneficial for the dogs in the long term.

do you realise how many of these cross breeds are in rescue and are being homed by people who are educated and informed about puppy farming and are trying to put right some of the wrong that has been done. Do your tar all owners with the same brush?

OP whatever happened i hope things turn out for the best


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## SusieT (23 September 2013)

you used the word garrot first...yes they are always unintended but those are things that shouldnt happen (and I have spent time in grooming parlours..the mishaps you describe only happen with inadequate handling and shouldn't happen to clients dogs)


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## s4sugar (23 September 2013)

twiggy2 said:



			you would do be better to educate rather than belittle/insult -it would prove more beneficial for the dogs in the long term.

do you realise how many of these cross breeds are in rescue and are being homed by people who are educated and informed about puppy farming and are trying to put right some of the wrong that has been done. Do your tar all owners with the same brush?

OP whatever happened i hope things turn out for the best
		
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Actually as I do rescue I get a lot and the people who have rescued tend to use x breed rather than silly names or are happy for their pet to be listed as Y x Z. 
Why are so many in rescue? Because they are bred for a quick sale and people are told what they want to believe and then rarely get support from the person they purchased from. These idiots are the ones I turn away. They are often convinced their dog is a breed & cannot possibly have any health problems even when hopping on three legs or with eyes that reflect green & of course they don't need brushing or training.... until the people get fed up & hand them to rescue & go & buy the next fad puppy. Some people don't want to be educated. If they did they would not buy from dealers or without seeing Mum as so many do.
 Rescued mutts are welcome -along with their owners.

The OP might like to check prices on the main refferal vet's site for Kent.


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## twiggy2 (23 September 2013)

s4sugar said:



			Actually as I do rescue I get a lot and the people who have rescued tend to use x breed rather than silly names or are happy for their pet to be listed as Y x Z. 
Why are so many in rescue? Because they are bred for a quick sale and people are told what they want to believe and then rarely get support from the person they purchased from. These idiots are the ones I turn away. They are often convinced their dog is a breed & cannot possibly have any health problems even when hopping on three legs or with eyes that reflect green & of course they don't need brushing or training.... until the people get fed up & hand them to rescue & go & buy the next fad puppy. Some people don't want to be educated. If they did they would not buy from dealers or without seeing Mum as so many do.
 Rescued mutts are welcome -along with their owners.

The OP might like to check prices on the main refferal vet's site for Kent. Their vets
		
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you know many people buy these puppies and I agree are ill informed and have not done their research but then many of them choose to live with what they have taken on and dont make the same mistake again (many do it over and over again too) your posts just seem very judgemental/aggressive on this topic. Maybe a groomer that responds in the way you have may put people off taking these cross breeds to the groomers for fear of the reception they may receive?


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## s4sugar (23 September 2013)

twiggy2 said:



			you know many people buy these puppies and I agree are ill informed and have not done their research but then many of them choose to live with what they have taken on and dont make the same mistake again (many do it over and over again too) your posts just seem very judgemental/aggressive on this topic. Maybe a groomer that responds in the way you have may put people off taking these cross breeds to the groomers for fear of the reception they may receive?
		
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There are plenty of places that take them & quite a few groomers around who produce them so it is their choice. Some of the biggest puppy farms offer grooming.


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## twiggy2 (23 September 2013)

s4sugar said:



			There are plenty of places that take them & quite a few groomers around who produce them so it is their choice. Some of the biggest puppy farms offer grooming.
		
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so they just stay in the clutches of the people farming these dogs with no opportunity to be educated, sounds like a missed opportunity on to educate these people (nicely)


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## s4sugar (23 September 2013)

twiggy2 said:



			so they just stay in the clutches of the people farming these dogs with no opportunity to be educated, sounds like a missed opportunity on to educate these people (nicely)
		
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The ones that won't use reasonable terminology e.g. poodle cross cocker don't want to be educated. Will be interesting how many insist on silly names when I do a free microchipping session in a couple of weeks. I will only put crossbreed in the breed section with YxZ in the description part. If they don't want this they can go elsewhere.


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## GeeGeeboy (23 September 2013)

Why is using the word 'mongrel' rude?! It is a description of a non-pedigree dog. As soon as S4sugar wrote the word mongrel she was accused of being rude! People need to accept the fact that these designer dogs are cross breeds/mongrels and you're only paying for a stupid, made-up name!!


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## LovesCobs (23 September 2013)

OP (Alison)
I think the vibe I'm getting is that you have decided it happened at the groomers and your vet has said she would have had to have been dropped on her back for this injury (backing up what you think).
what you have on this thread is advise from people who have experience of slipped discs that have not been caused in this way and also questions such as how do you travel your dog? sorry if I have missed this but I don't think you answered. I travel mine with crash tested harnesses (obviously not crash tested by me...) on the back seat. some people use crates in the back or have a dog gate type partition in the boot. some people do non and just get in. whichever you do an injury can occur (mine have come off the seat if I've breaked suddenly).
when the dog I was in charge of slipped a disc x-ray was the first port of call in case he had broken his back, no it didn't show up the slipped disc but it ruled out something else that could cause the issue. the MRI was the next step. this dog would not have wagged his tail, he was paralysed and couldn't wee or use his back legs at all, severe I know and it obviously isn't as severe for you.
but I am questioning your vets opinion. I know this dog was not dropped in any way and slipped on jumping off something.
this is why I suggested you get a second opinion from the vets who do the MRI if it will be done else where.
you haven't answered or commented on any of the other advise you have been given as far as I can see. we are trying to help you look at all angles. not every one has said it didn't happen at the groomers, you have had overall advise to help you move forward. please think about it. I hope you dog recovers, when is the scan booked for?


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## ester (23 September 2013)

I don't understand why you wouldn't at least ask the groomer if anything had happened as the dog wasn't right when you got it home even if you think she might not be truthful. If she is surely it would be better to know what happened as to what the subsequent injury might be??


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## GeeGeeboy (23 September 2013)

ester said:



			I don't understand why you wouldn't at least ask the groomer if anything had happened as the dog wasn't right when you got it home even if you think she might not be truthful. If she is surely it would be better to know what happened as to what the subsequent injury might be??
		
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Exactly! Seems OP would just rather blame the groomer as obviously we are all untrustworthy people who drop dogs on their backs! I'm sick of people blaming their groomers for everything that goes wrong with their dogs!


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## Cinnamontoast (24 September 2013)

PucciNPoni said:



			How do you know the groomer cut dogs in the past two weeks?  Sorry, just out of curiosity - do you work there?  Are you a friend?  What were the circumstances in which they were cut? Is the groomer new/inexperienced?
		
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I walked past and saw a dog fall and the girl who works with her told me its a regular occurrence and about the cuts and how customers rang up to complain after realising. Scary. The person offered to groom my dog, I refused!


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## PucciNPoni (25 September 2013)

cinnamontoast said:



			I walked past and saw a dog fall and the girl who works with her told me its a regular occurrence and about the cuts and how customers rang up to complain after realising. Scary. The person offered to groom my dog, I refused!
		
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Yikes - well that's not acceptable at all.  And it's not a regular or normal occurrence in about 90% of the grooming establishments that I'm aware of.  Most people when they cut or injure a dog it's traumatic for the groomer - way more than it ever usually is for the dog.   I certainly wouldn't bring my dog there.


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## Patterdale (25 September 2013)

GeeGeeboy said:



			Why is using the word 'mongrel' rude?! It is a description of a non-pedigree dog. As soon as S4sugar wrote the word mongrel she was accused of being rude! People need to accept the fact that these designer dogs are cross breeds/mongrels and you're only paying for a stupid, made-up name!!
		
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Totally agree! 
Someone who was a supposed home for one of my puppies has just turned up with a 'Westiepoo.' I kid you not. The thing looks like something Disney forgot to draw at Halloween.

Oh and at £400 was more than twice the price of one of my lovely Patterdales!


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## samlg (25 September 2013)

The thing looks like something Disney forgot to draw at Halloween.


  Brilliant!!


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## GeeGeeboy (25 September 2013)

samlg said:



			The thing looks like something Disney forgot to draw at Halloween.


Ha ha ha!!
		
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## Arizahn (25 September 2013)

s4sugar said:



			Actually as I do rescue I get a lot and the people who have rescued tend to use x breed rather than silly names or are happy for their pet to be listed as Y x Z. 
Why are so many in rescue? Because they are bred for a quick sale and people are told what they want to believe and then rarely get support from the person they purchased from. These idiots are the ones I turn away. They are often convinced their dog is a breed & cannot possibly have any health problems even when hopping on three legs or with eyes that reflect green & of course they don't need brushing or training.... until the people get fed up & hand them to rescue & go & buy the next fad puppy. Some people don't want to be educated. If they did they would not buy from dealers or without seeing Mum as so many do.
 Rescued mutts are welcome -along with their owners.

The OP might like to check prices on the main refferal vet's site for Kent.
		
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Off topic but can you clarify the reflecting green eyes part please? I walk mine at night sometimes, and occasionally use a torch, sometimes we have yellow eyes, sometimes they look green. Not sure which is which - will check if it is important! I have one who is blind, but I haven't had him out with a torch so no idea how his reflect. Shall have to check.

Quick rant: feel free to ignore 

As to the whole name thing, here in Northern Ireland, you have to have a dog licence. And you are not allowed to put mongrel any more. You used to be able to, but it has changed, since compulsary microchipping came in. You have to put either the breeds involved, the closest/best guess if unknown, or the popular name if known - eg cavapoo, etc. Breeders must microchip and register pups prior to rehoming. You are not allowed to home a dog without the new owner having a valid licence for it, and they cannot get one unless it has a chip! So with pups, the breeder gets to call them whatever they decide on the chip papers. Which must match the licence. Or else the licence is invalid.

As we are generally the test bed for new things, this may well happen on the mainland too. Sorry. Mongrel is being got rid of as a term, it appears. And as if you write say labrador cross collie, the council put labrador cross, well you are better putting borador, as at least no one can later say that your labrador collie cross could be a labrador pitbull cross, iyswim! We all remember Lennox after all. 

You are also lucky if they put the correct name on your licence...of course any mistake is something that you can be fined for, even if the council staff are the ones who clearly cannot spell! My dog is not named Ferris. I am tired of correcting them. It is spelled out very clearly as Fenris, yet they consistently change it!

Rant over.

Hope your puppy is soon on the mend OP.


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## Venevidivici (26 September 2013)

As an aside,I imagine this new trend in recent years of crossing every other breed under the sun with a poodle has resulted in grooming/poodle parlour tills all over the country to be ringing with delight! Never have so many small pooches needed so many haircuts...


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## PucciNPoni (26 September 2013)

Venevidivici said:



			As an aside,I imagine this new trend in recent years of crossing every other breed under the sun with a poodle has resulted in grooming/poodle parlour tills all over the country to be ringing with delight! Never have so many small pooches needed so many haircuts... 

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Well, not exactly.  Many of the crosses are with other coated breeds so the  number of trips to the salon stays about the same - or even if a bit less.  People who have poodles often know that these are a high maintenance breed of dog.  People with cockers know that they have to be groomed as well.  However, enter the cockerpoo - and very recently there was a video by a breeder of cockerpoos who was showing how it should be done (and it was horrific, btw) and it should be done twice a year allegedly - she even goes so far as to say that the coat doesn't need to be brushed except for when it's going to the groomer.   So there are many new owners who are getting this advice from breeders and what we are presented with are unruly (in behaviour) and matted to the skin dogs.  The dogs haven't a clue what's going on because they're not trained from a young age to be handled and the owners are distraught when we as groomers don't buy in to the "only needs done 2x a year" and offer to humanely shave the dog naked.   So there is tension between dog owner and groomer from the beginning because the groomer doesn't want to cause the dog to be distressed and the owner doesn't want a naked dog.

Another thing that causes groomers to groan (inwardly of course) is people who say "I have a rare breed, it's a LhasaYorkieChon.  You DO know the breed standard trim for this right?"   Or when people come in with something like a Bichon x LHGSD (yes, I've seen one with my own eyes - bred by a breeder of bichons who sells bichons for £450 and this cross for £500).  We get a bit tetchy because we haven't got a clue what kind of coat we're going to be presented with.  We don't WANT to make every dog naked, but sometimes that's all you can humanely do.  We don't spend thousands in training per year going to seminars, learning about new techniques, products and tools only to have the latest in cross breds come to our door for styling only to find that it's not going to be able to be styled but stripped back.  We are generally heartbroken when we find people are duped in to thinking they bought a healthy specimen and in reality it's anything but.  <yes, I know this happens with purebred dogs too but the heartbreak is the same and perhaps more frequent in the crosses>

However, I do rather like many doodles and other crosses.  But not more than any purebred dog that I do.  They're all just dogs at the end of the day.  I like having owners who listen to advice about care, training, coat care, feeding and have happy healthy pets who enjoy being groomed.  I love learning about their quirks and their triumphs.  With the cross breeds you have a bit more scope for creativity but that's only if the owner is willing and they are handy with a brush.


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## PucciNPoni (26 September 2013)

Arizahn said:



			As to the whole name thing, here in Northern Ireland, you have to have a dog licence. And you are not allowed to put mongrel any more. You used to be able to, but it has changed, since compulsary microchipping came in. You have to put either the breeds involved, the closest/best guess if unknown, or the popular name if known - eg cavapoo, etc. Breeders must microchip and register pups prior to rehoming.
		
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I remember once a girl came in to my salon with a dog to use as a test groom.  It looked rather like a working collie.  I asked her what she was going to do (I had specifically asked her to bring a dog that could be clipped and styled so was a bit mystified as to why she chose a collie type).  She said it was a Labradinger.  Labradinger?  Yes, she says, it's a lab x springer.  However that was because dad was a lab.  If dad was a springer, it would have been a Springador.  She said it with a perfectly straight face.


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## Venevidivici (26 September 2013)

It wasn't a dig,in any way and I feel for you...I can't even begin to imagine the upsurge in 'But PootlePerkins (I loved The Flumps) absolutely must keep her hair just so and what do you mean she's matted/lame/cross-eyed/undershot/overshot/two-headed?!' 
(And I love any dog (pure or cross) so have no bias. My sister has a Cockerxpoodle and he's a sweet little (crazy!) dog but she's also had labs,lab crosses and an Irish wolfhound,so isn't in the PootlePerkin brigade... I just find fluffy bunny, ignorant owners (of any type of animal!) difficult to tolerate!)


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## Venevidivici (26 September 2013)

^^^ Pahaahaaha! PucciP,your last post just made me lol!!


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## PucciNPoni (26 September 2013)

Venevidivici said:



			It wasn't a dig,in any way and I feel for you...I can't even begin to imagine the upsurge in 'But PootlePerkins (I loved The Flumps) absolutely must keep her hair just so and what do you mean she's matted/lame/cross-eyed/undershot/overshot/two-headed?!' 
(And I love any dog (pure or cross) so have no bias. My sister has a Cockerxpoodle and he's a sweet little (crazy!) dog but she's also had labs,lab crosses and an Irish wolfhound,so isn't in the PootlePerkin brigade... I just find fluffy bunny, ignorant owners (of any type of animal!) difficult to tolerate!)
		
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Oh don't worry, I wasn't taking it as a dig. I was just having a predawn musing - sitting here ready to down the maximum number of Ibuprophen before I start yet another day...along with joint supplements and a good healthy dose of humour.    In the past two days I've had a completely out of control Briard, who SuzieT you will be happy to note that the dog flung himself to the floor and against the walls while his Dad was leaving him.  I literally had to stand braced (as if a horse were dragging me) against the temper tantrum.  He hit the floor and walls so hard I thought we were going to have to check for broken ribs.   He then got up, marched straight to the bath tub and looked at me as if to say "well c'mon, lets get this over with".  He stood like a perfect angel for the rest of the groom.  Then dad arrived and he then leapt at dad, biting his arms, legs, lead, tried to knock him over.  I had  serious chat with dad about the dominance he was showing.  Dad seemed to take it on board.  And yes, I did tell him I was concerned about him flinging himself to the floor!   So that whole episode took a lot out of my back.  

Then the sheer amount of brushing and scissoring and handstripping the past few weeks, my hands, wrists and elbow are knackered.  I would LOVE a few "little crosses" but it seems most of the ones I get are horse sized 

Hey, fwiw  I have some right nutty owners of purebred dogs too.  I took delight in losing one owner of a bichon who for the life of her couldn't seem to get to an appointment on time, always had to nitpick about the groom, couldn't maintain a schedule.  Woman called me a Rottweiler when I told her straight out that if she couldn't keep her dog brushed and on a schedule that I would be shaving the coat off.


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## Venevidivici (26 September 2013)

I reckon that the animal owning section of the public has more than its fair share of nutters...perhaps that's what attracts them to have animals-poor pets have to put up with the insanity/stupidity without too much complaint..


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## PucciNPoni (26 September 2013)

^aint that the truth!  

There are plenty of dog groomers who have been injured in the line of work....not the least by bites by dogs who's owners are completely uncaring and or seem to think that it is or should just be part of our job.  They don't think to tell us that the dog has been chucked out of x amount of salons because of its aggression.  Instead of looking for compensation many groomers assume the fault is theirs and then go on canine behaviour courses.  Funny old world.


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## Arizahn (26 September 2013)

PucciNPoni said:



			I remember once a girl came in to my salon with a dog to use as a test groom.  It looked rather like a working collie.  I asked her what she was going to do (I had specifically asked her to bring a dog that could be clipped and styled so was a bit mystified as to why she chose a collie type).  She said it was a Labradinger.  Labradinger?  Yes, she says, it's a lab x springer.  However that was because dad was a lab.  If dad was a springer, it would have been a Springador.  She said it with a perfectly straight face.
		
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Lol! I am sad to say that I know a few people very like this. 

My dogs are mixes, except for the labrador. The labrador is delightfully mad. The mixes are far better to work with, especially the collie who is technically a smooth coat collie cross australian kelpie. None of them go to the grooming parlour I do them myself. Generally in the river, tbh.

Had a small fluffy type once. I loved him, but he tried to eat my husband, and then was revealed to have a long history of random aggression. Took him back to the rescue and refuse to have another adult rescue ever as they had stated when we first asked about him that he was never aggressive.

Still miss him. Husband is still convinced all small fluffy dogs will attack him on sight. When our current large chaps all pass away, I intend to get the smallest fluffiest thing I can find and spoil it rotten, as by then I should be approaching my fifties and entitled to have a lapdog. Meanwhile the collie is helping me practice. Twenty kilos of wet dog on my knee as I type


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## FinnishLapphund (28 September 2013)

Arizahn said:



			Lol! I am sad to say that I know a few people very like this. 

My dogs are mixes, except for the labrador. The labrador is delightfully mad. The mixes are far better to work with, especially the collie who is technically a smooth coat collie cross australian kelpie. None of them go to the grooming parlour I do them myself. Generally in the river, tbh.

Had a small fluffy type once. I loved him, but he tried to eat my husband, and then was revealed to have a long history of random aggression. Took him back to the rescue and refuse to have another adult rescue ever as they had stated when we first asked about him that he was never aggressive.

Still miss him. Husband is still convinced all small fluffy dogs will attack him on sight. When our current large chaps all pass away, I intend to get the smallest fluffiest thing I can find and spoil it rotten, as by then I should be approaching my fifties and entitled to have a lapdog. Meanwhile the collie is helping me practice. Twenty kilos of wet dog on my knee as I type 

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Since you mentioned having plans on one day getting "the smallest fluffiest" dog you can find, I'm taking the opportunity to post a few Pomeranian photos I've seen on my Google image searches:


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## Crugeran Celt (28 September 2013)

I have a mongrel, she is out of an English Springer bitch to a Welsh Collie dog and is known as a Sprollie. I am aware that she is a mongrel and paid a pittance for her as her breeder knew she was a mongrel!!  She is a fantastic dog and the most intelligent and has been the easiest to train out of all the dogs we have ever had, namely labradors and sringers. The first time I had her clipped I asked if I could stay with her as she is an anxious dog and the groomer had no problem with that at all. She was extremely kind and calm around my dog and the next time I took her she ran into the groomer's with tail wagging. I now take her twice a year and she runs in willingly and seems totally happy going there. I think it is so important to have someone your dog trusts to clip and groom them and the only way to be sure is to stay with the dog the first time.


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## Moomin1 (28 September 2013)

GeeGeeboy said:



			Exactly! Seems OP would just rather blame the groomer as obviously we are all untrustworthy people who drop dogs on their backs! I'm sick of people blaming their groomers for everything that goes wrong with their dogs!
		
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First thing that stood out to me about OP's post was the list of costs.

Next thing - OP seems immediately accusing of the groomer, and reluctant to accept it could have happened any other way.

My guess is OP wants compensating.


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## PucciNPoni (29 September 2013)

Moomin1 said:



			First thing that stood out to me about OP's post was the list of costs.

Next thing - OP seems immediately accusing of the groomer, and reluctant to accept it could have happened any other way.

My guess is OP wants compensating.
		
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Well yes, but me giving the benefit of the doubt, I tried to come up with some nice ways for her to approach the situation.  Her only response was to disbelieve anything the groomer might possibly say.  I guess that goes for me too, as a groomer and all 

I am sure the OP is worried about her dog, and I would be too.  But unless she approaches the groomer and speaks to them, how will she even get compensation?  Going in all guns blazing she may find she has a fight on her hands rather than discussing like adults.


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