# RIP Fox Hunt



## Vicki_Krystal (31 March 2012)

Very sad.

http://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/31032012/58/racing-richest-day-marred-tragedy.html


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## LizzieJ (31 March 2012)

It looked awful  RIP Fox Hunt.


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## LizzieJ (31 March 2012)

I was impressed with how quickly the Jockeys pulled up, I can't imagine it is easy to notice people telling you too in a 1m flat race!


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## Guylian (31 March 2012)

R.I.P fox hunt  sounded like a nasty fall but at least he's not suffering now and can cross the rainbow bridge :'(


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## Shantara (31 March 2012)

I was admiring how lovely the horse was, thinking how pretty it was...then it fell. I don't watch racing a lot and I had turned it on while I waited for my parents to be ready to go out. 
Poor horse, I hope the jockey is ok too. Utterly horrible to watch 
R.I.P Fox Hunt


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## LizzieJ (31 March 2012)

The jockey is luckily fine


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## Elf On A Shelf (31 March 2012)

Such a shame as he was a very tallented horse. The jockey is ok and the race is being re-run at the end of the card. 

Quick, good thinking by officials to get the race stopped before the horses got back round to him.


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## Shantara (31 March 2012)

I'm glad the jockey is ok (Just read the article, that'll teach me!) I recently read an article from the jockey's point of view and stupidly, it hadn't occurred to me how badly the rider could be hurt in such a situation.


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## Phoebe (31 March 2012)

That was one horrible thing to witness but dealt with very professionally indeed


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## teapot (31 March 2012)

And in the re-run of the race, it looks like at least two horses were pulled up VERY quickly and on 3 legs


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## Phoebe (31 March 2012)

One definite fatality in the rerun. How sad.


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## Dobiegirl (31 March 2012)

Very sad about Fox Hunt and Bronze Cannon was the other fatality in the rerun. A lot of people on the Racing Post site are saying it shouldnt have been rerun including a commentator who expressed his concern before the race.


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## dominobrown (1 April 2012)

It was horrible to watch, however they dealt with it very well. However I think they re-run would of been best off being today, or at the next meeting there, just so the other horses would be at their best.


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## LadyRascasse (1 April 2012)

Grand Vent was also PTS, 3 horses in one race is terrible. I knew as soon as the commentator said the ground was firm there was going to be trouble. they should never had re run it. RIP Fox Hound, Bronze Cannon and Grand Vent


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## ILuvCowparsely (1 April 2012)

RIP Fox Hunt



 what a tragedy


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## Milanesa (1 April 2012)

Oh how sad rip all 3 horses.


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## freckles22uk (1 April 2012)

I saw the first race, and thought how bad it was for one to break a leg, but then to see another do it.. its awful,

why are these horses breaking legs by just galloping?. are they not as strong boned as they used to be?


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## LadyRascasse (1 April 2012)

The ground was declared firm. The race should never have been staged once let alone twice. Firm ground is almost like galloping down a road for 2 miles!


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## amage (1 April 2012)

freckles22uk said:



			I saw the first race, and thought how bad it was for one to break a leg, but then to see another do it.. its awful,

why are these horses breaking legs by just galloping?. are they not as strong boned as they used to be?
		
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Not exactly unusual for a horse to break a leg galloping...its basic physics. Half ton weight on one small cubic area and if it doesn't hit the ground spot on or jinks or any bazillion number of things goes wrong then ACCIDENTs happen!


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## SusannaF (1 April 2012)

I'm reading a history of the early days of the TB, and way back then, the horses ran many heats every day over considerably longer distances. I wonder if it would be worth combing through those old records to see how many horses shattered legs while running.


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## freckles22uk (1 April 2012)

amage said:



			Not exactly unusual for a horse to break a leg galloping...its basic physics. Half ton weight on one small cubic area and if it doesn't hit the ground spot on or jinks or any bazillion number of things goes wrong then ACCIDENTs happen!
		
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Yes I understand all that,  but ive watched racing on and off for years, it just seems all of a sudden lots seem to be breaking legs, or I wonder if the same amount did break them say 20 years back, but it was never news..


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## luckyoldme (1 April 2012)

the owners and trainers and everyone involved only have the horses best interests at heart.
The horses come first last and foremost.
In no way can it ever be suggested that the race could be the cause of the horses' deaths.
Its just an unfortunate coincidence that three horses snapped their legs in one race .
And my dads the pope.


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## amage (1 April 2012)

freckles22uk said:



			Yes I understand all that,  but ive watched racing on and off for years, it just seems all of a sudden lots seem to be breaking legs, or I wonder if the same amount did break them say 20 years back, but it was never news..
		
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Well technology has alot to do with the information being more instantly available be it good news or bad news so people not necessarily interested in racing or following the results will hear of injuries & fatalities where in the past they probably wouldn't have.

"the owners and trainers and everyone involved only have the horses best interests at heart.
The horses come first last and foremost.
In no way can it ever be suggested that the race could be the cause of the horses' deaths.
Its just an unfortunate coincidence that three horses snapped their legs in one race .
And my dads the pope. "

Funny all you racing bashers aren't slating eventing on the thread about Sir Roscoe dying today....double standards alive and well on HHO


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## tristar (1 April 2012)

i can only think of the distress, terror and pain of those horses, so young, so beautiful, so vulnerable, god bless dear horses.


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## Elf On A Shelf (1 April 2012)

I am a bit of a breeding geek when it comes to TB's and over the last 6-7 years have looked into many, many bloodlines. From what I've seen and taken note of you have 3 types of TB - 
The Coolmore ones which generally have good conformation, breed good conformation and are fairly set though they don't always have the most straight forward of tempraments.

The Darley ones which are usually devestatingly pretty and dainty, have decent depth to them, a good attitude but they tend to lack back ends and don't always have the best basic conformation or the best feet.

The Juddmont ones. These are usually heavier set that the previous 2 in all respects. The ones I have come across have all had big heads, good shoulders, big bums and a decent set of pins on them - though not always the straighest of legs.

They say conformation can be overlooked if the horse does the job required of it. Dodgy conformation will always lead to a higher risk of injury with the speed the legs are being required to work at. 

2 of the fatally injured horses were Darley/Godolphin bred. The 3rd had half of their bloodlines on the dams side. Go figure. 

It's the mass inbreeding of these horses that start to produce the conformation faults. These horses are then trained, are sucessful and then bred from again thus producing more of the fault. And so on and so forth. If you removed every TB that had a fault big enough to possibly induce injury from the paddocks then you would be left with a mere handful. It's the same with everything - you choose the lesser of two evils when crossing horses and hope the offspring turns out better basically than it's parents.


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## Elf On A Shelf (1 April 2012)

tristar said:



			i can only think of the distress, terror and pain of those horses, so young, so beautiful, so vulnerable, god bless dear horses.
		
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Try wired to the moon on adrenaline! Feeling no pain and pumped full of drugs before they can begin to feel any! Injury assessed, decision made and horse either being trucked off to horsepital or put down within 10mins. 

VS

Pony in field, galloping along, breaks leg - how long until they get checked again and someone notices? How long until the vet gets there? How long until damage assessment is done? How long until the decision is made?

And people say racing is cruel.


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## freckles22uk (1 April 2012)

EKW said:



			I am a bit of a breeding geek when it comes to TB's and over the last 6-7 years have looked into many, many bloodlines. From what I've seen and taken note of you have 3 types of TB - 
The Coolmore ones which generally have good conformation, breed good conformation and are fairly set though they don't always have the most straight forward of tempraments.

The Darley ones which are usually devestatingly pretty and dainty, have decent depth to them, a good attitude but they tend to lack back ends and don't always have the best basic conformation or the best feet.

The Juddmont ones. These are usually heavier set that the previous 2 in all respects. The ones I have come across have all had big heads, good shoulders, big bums and a decent set of pins on them - though not always the straighest of legs.

They say conformation can be overlooked if the horse does the job required of it. Dodgy conformation will always lead to a higher risk of injury with the speed the legs are being required to work at. 

2 of the fatally injured horses were Darley/Godolphin bred. The 3rd had half of their bloodlines on the dams side. Go figure. 

It's the mass inbreeding of these horses that start to produce the conformation faults. These horses are then trained, are sucessful and then bred from again thus producing more of the fault. And so on and so forth. If you removed every TB that had a fault big enough to possibly induce injury from the paddocks then you would be left with a mere handful. It's the same with everything - you choose the lesser of two evils when crossing horses and hope the offspring turns out better basically than it's parents.
		
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Interesting stuff... thank you,


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## tristar (1 April 2012)

there is a direct correlation between conformation and soundness.

a lot of american tbs have their legs operated on before they make it to the racetrack.

the only fair way to breed is to put the most perfect  to the most perfect or  don't breed, we make the decisions, the responsibility lies with us.


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## freckles22uk (1 April 2012)

EKW said:



			Try wired to the moon on adrenaline! Feeling no pain and pumped full of drugs before they can begin to feel any! Injury assessed, decision made and horse either being trucked off to horsepital or put down within 10mins. 

VS

Pony in field, galloping along, breaks leg - how long until they get checked again and someone notices? How long until the vet gets there? How long until damage assessment is done? How long until the decision is made?

And people say racing is cruel.
		
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have to agree there, I was hacking my last horse on the road (when I lived in the UK)  when she spooked (at something in the grass) into the path of a lorry, we were thrown to the ground and she broke her back pastern and dislocated a front fetlock, we had to strap her up and get her off the road into the yard (30 metres away) and then wait 30-40 mins for the vet to come and PTS...  if she had been on the track she would of been put out of pain within minutes..  it was one of those things, but people still ride on the roads


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## tristar (1 April 2012)

EKW try being a highly sensitive and intelligent animal that is totally aware of what is happening, then to lose your life in painfull and tragic circumstances, very young, when you have personally experienced this you will be qualified to speak for the animals.

if a pony hurts itself in the field here, it will be dealt with immediately and quietly, there is always someone here, horses are our life and their welfare comes before all else.

sadly a large part of the problem is that they are so young, they have not yet gained their full skeletal strength, are in a state of growth and therefore somewhat unbalanced, maybe this contributes.


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## Dobiegirl (1 April 2012)

Tristar what planet are you on, a horse on the racecourse is dealt with immediately a horse or pony in the field if it is only checked once a day could have to wait 24 hours before anyone found it.


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## amage (1 April 2012)

tristar said:



			EKW try being a highly sensitive and intelligent animal that is totally aware of what is happening, then to lose your life in painfull and tragic circumstances, very young, when you have personally experienced this you will be qualified to speak for the animals.

if a pony hurts itself in the field here, it will be dealt with immediately and quietly, there is always someone here, horses are our life and their welfare comes before all else.

sadly a large part of the problem is that they are so young, they have not yet gained their full skeletal strength, are in a state of growth and therefore somewhat unbalanced, maybe this contributes.
		
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Have you ever personally had a serious injury? Pardon me if you have but I speak from experience when I say you would be amazed at how powerful adrenaline is. people often comment on how young and unbalanced etc flat tbs are...any I have ridden are far from unbalanced. There are also a huge amount of them put away and not brought out until they are older as they need more time. I have a two year old sport horse that I bred, by a TB X Warmblood mare. There is no comparison between him and the average fit to race tb two year old....they are so forward! The horses in the race where three horses died in Meydan were aged 4-7 so were mature. While I agree that they are highly sensitive and intelligent animals they do not have human thoughts...they do not think my leg is broken so I am going to die. They are dead before the adrenalin has left their system which if a horse has to go I feel is the best circumstances in which to go.


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## amage (1 April 2012)

Dobiegirl said:



			Tristar what planet are you on, a horse on the racecourse is dealt with immediately a horse or pony in the field if it is only checked once a day could have to wait 24 hours before anyone found it.
		
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I think Tristar was referring to her own personal horses and ponies


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## kerilli (1 April 2012)

ditto what amage said. i broke my arm years ago, i'm the world's biggest wimp but i felt NOTHING at all until the paramedic pulled it straight, then nothing again for about another 20 minutes. then i must admit it really really really chuffing well did hurt... 
don't underestimate the strength of adrenalin.
as for the race - awful if it was down to the going. RIP horses.
the big blue wheelie bin trundles again...


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## tristar (2 April 2012)

yes thankyou, i have hurt myself several times.!!

i would not wish that on any horse, we make the decisions, we put them at risk, i personally feel 6 years is the right age for ANY horse in ANY discipline to start work under pressure, achieving  true balance is not just a simple thing it takes years of training, there are far more than three types of tbs,.

i see nothing that can make it 'acceptable' for three horses to die in one race, that is after all what the discussion is about, hopefully something will be learned, but too late for the horses concerned.


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## SusannaF (2 April 2012)

EKW said:



			I am a bit of a breeding geek when it comes to TB's and over the last 6-7 years have looked into many, many bloodlines. From what I've seen and taken note of you have 3 types of TB - 
The Coolmore ones which generally have good conformation, breed good conformation and are fairly set though they don't always have the most straight forward of tempraments.

The Darley ones which are usually devestatingly pretty and dainty, have decent depth to them, a good attitude but they tend to lack back ends and don't always have the best basic conformation or the best feet.

The Juddmont ones. These are usually heavier set that the previous 2 in all respects. The ones I have come across have all had big heads, good shoulders, big bums and a decent set of pins on them - though not always the straighest of legs.

They say conformation can be overlooked if the horse does the job required of it. Dodgy conformation will always lead to a higher risk of injury with the speed the legs are being required to work at. 

2 of the fatally injured horses were Darley/Godolphin bred. The 3rd had half of their bloodlines on the dams side. Go figure. 

It's the mass inbreeding of these horses that start to produce the conformation faults. These horses are then trained, are sucessful and then bred from again thus producing more of the fault. And so on and so forth. If you removed every TB that had a fault big enough to possibly induce injury from the paddocks then you would be left with a mere handful. It's the same with everything - you choose the lesser of two evils when crossing horses and hope the offspring turns out better basically than it's parents.
		
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Definitely very interesting. I wrote an over-long and meandering blog post musing on this after a study came out showing that TBs were a few generations away from an inbreeding crisis. I'd been interested to discover that a major farm like Three Chimneys actually recommended linebreeding, and linebreeding for a stallion that had major unsoundness issues in its career.


As to adrenalin and injuries: I sat by a friend who'd just lost one leg and had the other smashed in a road traffic incident, and he was telling jokes... It was a ten to fifteen minutes before he got his ketamin from the paramedics and I don't think he felt pain in that time.


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## cefyl (2 April 2012)

tristar said:



			a lot of american tbs have their legs operated on before they make it to the racetrack.
QUOTE]

???  Name ONE...or more, go on !  

I know personally many American TB breeders, racehorse owners, and trainers.  In over 40 years have not known, or even heard of personally or "through the grapevine / chinese whispers" of one, let alone "alot" who have been operated on BEFORE they get to the track.
		
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## cefyl (2 April 2012)

tristar said:



			if a pony hurts itself in the field here, it will be dealt with immediately and quietly, there is always someone here, horses are our life and their welfare comes before all else.
QUOTE]

Ehhhh???  In the field, dealt with immdediately, always someone here???

What do you do, stand guard over them 24 hours a day?  From this your horses are NEVER EVER out at night, unless of course you have floodlit fields with again someone on night duty observing them.  And how long are they turned out for, 30 minutes so they can be watched?  All your fields are within direct view of someone 24 hours a day?

IF, and just IF one of your's broke a leg in the field, and you call the vet immediately (because of course you are by it's side 24 / 7 ) how long does your vet take to get to you?
		
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## Honeylight (2 April 2012)

EKW said:



			I am a bit of a breeding geek when it comes to TB's and over the last 6-7 years have looked into many, many bloodlines. From what I've seen and taken note of you have 3 types of TB - 
The Coolmore ones which generally have good conformation, breed good conformation and are fairly set though they don't always have the most straight forward of tempraments.

The Darley ones which are usually devestatingly pretty and dainty, have decent depth to them, a good attitude but they tend to lack back ends and don't always have the best basic conformation or the best feet.

The Juddmont ones. These are usually heavier set that the previous 2 in all respects. The ones I have come across have all had big heads, good shoulders, big bums and a decent set of pins on them - though not always the straighest of legs.

They say conformation can be overlooked if the horse does the job required of it. Dodgy conformation will always lead to a higher risk of injury with the speed the legs are being required to work at. 

2 of the fatally injured horses were Darley/Godolphin bred. The 3rd had half of their bloodlines on the dams side. Go figure. 

It's the mass inbreeding of these horses that start to produce the conformation faults. These horses are then trained, are sucessful and then bred from again thus producing more of the fault. And so on and so forth. If you removed every TB that had a fault big enough to possibly induce injury from the paddocks then you would be left with a mere handful. It's the same with everything - you choose the lesser of two evils when crossing horses and hope the offspring turns out better basically than it's parents.
		
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I have been following racing since I was very small & studied TB pedigrees since my early teens; I am now in my 50s. 
Firstly horses were raced younger (there used to be yearling races up to the mid 20thc) & harder. The racecourses were never watered then & summers were in many cases drier. If you look at the Derby there were not frequent leg breaks until the 1950s & then they were very rare & sporadic ditto 1960s & 1970s, as we move into the 1980s there were more. You very rarely saw a horse break it's leg on the flat, either in between fences & hurdles or in a flat race. It seems to becoming very, very common.
Secondly if you pick up a stallion book, look in the breeding section of an old Horse & Hound from before the 1980s you will see a difference. That difference is in the size of the gene pool of stallions. As recently as the 1980s there were male lines of Hyperion & Blandford available & earlier than that of Hurry On. I think the last significant stallion from the Hurry On line was Sheshoon & what a fine specimen he was, with superb limbs.
What has happened? Fashion & greed. Northern Dancer, Northern Dancer....too many of his sons at stud, some with poor conformation. Then Mr Prospector as well. These are the only two real blood lines in the world constantly being crossed & recrossed. Look in the paddock before the race, lots of washy bays with white in their tails, that is from Northern Dancer. If a visual artist & art lecturer can see it why can't the horse breeders? 
The trouble is there is very little blood , if any to outcross to, perhaps they will eventually have to introduce rough blood from another breed, because if things go on like this the bone will get brittler & brittler.


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## SusannaF (2 April 2012)

Honeylight said:



			Secondly if you pick up a stallion book, look in the breeding section of an old Horse & Hound from before the 1980s you will see a difference. That difference is in the size of the gene pool of stallions. As recently as the 1980s there were male lines of Hyperion & Blandford available & earlier than that of Hurry On. I think the last significant stallion from the Hurry On line was Sheshoon & what a fine specimen he was, with superb limbs.
What has happened? Fashion & greed. Northern Dancer, Northern Dancer....too many of his sons at stud, some with poor conformation. Then Mr Prospector as well. These are the only two real blood lines in the world constantly being crossed & recrossed. Look in the paddock before the race, lots of washy bays with white in their tails, that is from Northern Dancer. If a visual artist & art lecturer can see it why can't the horse breeders? 
The trouble is there is very little blood , if any to outcross to, perhaps they will eventually have to introduce rough blood from another breed, because if things go on like this the bone will get brittler & brittler.
		
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Breeding advice I found on the website for Three Chimneys which backs up your theory:




			Champion BIG BROWN has a very special pedigree pattern to make a successful sire. Although inbred 3×3 to Northern Dancer via speed sons Danzig and Nureyev, BIG BROWN inherits classic speed from inbreeding to a rare combination of the Damascus/Round Table affinity. His genetic pattern indicates it was no fluke he became a Champion racehorse with clean airflow. Damascus carries the strain of elite mare Perfume II (Badruddin  Lavendula II, by Pharos), a female genetic relative of Nasrullah and Royal Charger. Thus, it makes sense to reinforce the superior mix of Nearco, Blenheim and Mumtaz Mahal with the double of Northern Dancer in BIG BROWNs pedigree.

    BIG BROWN needs mares with a daughter of Northern Dancer (especially daughters of More Than Ready or Southern Halo), as they will reinforce superior genes. Mares with Hail to Reason, Seattle Slew, Blushing Groom, and especially Mr. Prospector are ideal test matings. Mr. Prospector will supply a son of Champion Native Dancer to any foal sired by BIG BROWN, thus balancing Natalma, daughter of Northern Dancer.
		
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## Caledonia (2 April 2012)

There is virtually no similarity in the bloodlines of those three horses until the 4th generation where Northern Dancer is great grandsire of Fox Hunt on the distaff line, and great grandsire of Grand Vent also on his distaff line. 

I'd say the historical training methods of these horses, and surfaces they are running/trained on have a lot more to do with what happened to those horses. 

I sadly agree about the overuse of fashionable stallions at the top of the gene pool, but survival of the fittest dictates that sound horses tend to be the ones whose genes carry on. Sadler's Wells is a prime example - loads of his progeny carried on running as 5yos, or went jumping. Istabraq springs to mind, and Hurricane Fly is by a son of sadlers Wells. Genes of various horses die out because the offspring don't win. 

I googled Hurry On, as i hadn't heard of him before, I think he disappeared from British pedigrees because his stallion sons look to have been sold abroad. 

As for the three fatalities, I love my racing, but I can't defend the instance of them re-running the race. It was a disgrace and should not have happened. And I was adamant beforehand that it shouldn't be rerun, so I'm not talking with hindsight.


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## SusannaF (2 April 2012)

I think sometimes the "fittest survive" gets a little distorted. Big Brown, for instance, ran his best races on steroids, and some sires retire after only a handful of races (Danzig, Nureyev, Lammtarra).

I don't think it's a remotely simple issue, but there does need to be some long-term analysis to see when fatalities have risen or fallen and what seemed to bring that about. I love racing too. And I'm scared it's going to go the way of hunting.


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## LEC (2 April 2012)

I have read some very interesting information that Native Dancer bought about inherent weaknesses into the TB. Basically Native Dancer was a very heavy build on very spindly legs and this has been passed down. Both Native Dancer and Northern Dancer both retired young with tendons that did not stand up. 

You only need to look at Kayf Tara and his youngstock are renowned for wonky legs. Ok so they are not Gr1 winners but he is still being regularly used.

Just off on a tangent - I do think its sad that we will probably never see another triple crown winner. I do think for me that its the sign of the ultimate racehorse and they do go down in history. 

I love everything about horse racing and like everything there is good and bad.


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## Caledonia (2 April 2012)

SusannaF said:



			I think sometimes the "fittest survive" gets a little distorted. Big Brown, for instance, ran his best races on steroids, and some sires retire after only a handful of races (Danzig, Nureyev, Lammtarra).

I don't think it's a remotely simple issue, but there does need to be some long-term analysis to see when fatalities have risen or fallen and what seemed to bring that about. I love racing too. And I'm scared it's going to go the way of hunting.
		
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Interesting all those three go back to ND! Did they retire through injury, though? 
I thought it was to protect their stud value?

I think that Darley have a lot to answer for with the offer they set up a while back that no breeder would lose their money if they used a Darley stallion. Horse breeding should not be lowered to the supermarket money back guarantees....... that produced so many bad horses from bad mares it was appalling. Then they had to shoot a load of them. 

I can't stand the Godolphin operation. At least Coolmore have successfully prevented them having the monopoly in British racing they aimed for.


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## Caledonia (2 April 2012)

LEC said:



			I have read some very interesting information that Native Dancer bought about inherent weaknesses into the TB. Basically Native Dancer was a very heavy build on very spindly legs and this has been passed down. Both Native Dancer and Northern Dancer both retired young with tendons that did not stand up.
		
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Native Dancer won 21 out of his 22 starts, and raced over 3 seasons?


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## tristar (2 April 2012)

i agree with LEC those horses are top heavy with problematic limbs, they have speed and the very best of breathing apparatus, but their legs let them down.

looking at the breeding of Sea The Stars he has one direct northern dancer in the fourth generation, he is a big horse, but has very good bone, is well proportioned and does not look top heavy, and although would be impossible to afford would add something to competition horse breeding i think.

if i had a horse that won the derby as a three year old, as lamtarra did, on his first outing i believe, i would'nt race him again.


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## SusannaF (2 April 2012)

Caledonia said:



			Interesting all those three go back to ND! Did they retire through injury, though? 
I thought it was to protect their stud value?

I think that Darley have a lot to answer for with the offer they set up a while back that no breeder would lose their money if they used a Darley stallion. Horse breeding should not be lowered to the supermarket money back guarantees....... that produced so many bad horses from bad mares it was appalling. Then they had to shoot a load of them. 

I can't stand the Godolphin operation. At least Coolmore have successfully prevented them having the monopoly in British racing they aimed for.
		
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Danzig had knee problems, Nureyev was knocked out by a virus and they just don't seem to have wanted to test Lammtarra as much as other Derby winners. But there wasn't much chance to work out if Nureyev or Lammtarra were very sound in general as their careers were so short.


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## Caledonia (2 April 2012)

tristar said:



			i agree with LEC those horses are top heavy with problematic limbs, they have speed and the very best of breathing apparatus, but their legs let them down.

looking at the breeding of Sea The Stars he has one direct northern dancer in the fourth generation, he is a big horse, but has very good bone, is well proportioned and does not look top heavy, and although would be impossible to afford would add something to competition horse breeding i think.
		
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Sea The Stars has no less ND than any of those that broke down at Meydan. And if you are agreeing with LEC, he has Native Dance 5th generation. So that makes him exactly what you are arguing against? 

There is NOTHING wrong with Northern Dancer, he was a small wiry tough horse - he won 14 from 18 - there is no way he'd have had the influence he has if his offspring weren't tough and sound. Also, with other horses, don't confuse early retiral to stud to protect the stallion value with retiral through unsoundness.


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## Honeylight (2 April 2012)

Northern Dancer was a good horse & tough by today's standards; there is nothing wrong with him or Sadlers Wells but they have been over used. Ok Phalaris line horses were used a lot & their descendants like Nearco; so was St Simon. when this was happening there were other bloodlines available & horses could be sourced from overseas. Now racing & breeding have become so global this is less possible.
Hurry On's stock were stayers, St Leger & Ascot Gold Cup winners who didn't sire the precocious fashionable stock required. Writers on breeding were aware of this trend as being dangerous for the breed in the 1950s (Read John Hislop).

I actually put some of the blame at Coolmore's door in flooding the market with Northern Dancer stallions.
It isn't healthy to have the industry dominated by two operations; flat racing has become a bit boring when runners for the big races are only owned by two owners. However the days of the old owner breeder have long gone.

I also wonder if synthetic surfaces, interval training, treadmills & modern cubes could have a leaning on fatalities. In the old days yearlings were finished in limestone areas to promote healthy bone, big stud owner like Lord Derby & the Aga Khan had nurseries in Ireland or Yorkshire for this reason. Does anyone know if this practice still occurs? suppose it's all supplements now, but they might just not be as good as the real thing, my old GP said that eating three oranges was better than taking a vitamin c supplement.


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## Elf On A Shelf (2 April 2012)

A fair few horses retire to stud to protect their futures in the breeding sheds. That is why most flat good flat horses rarely see a 5yo season, not because their legs went wrong.

You then also get the likes of George Washington who proved infertile and so Holy Roman Emperor was retired from racing as a 2yo to take over his stud duties as he was the closet living, entire, good relative. We never got the chance to see his true brilliance on the track. A 3yo year between HRE and Teofilo would have been mouth watering!


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## tristar (2 April 2012)

Honeylight, i visited the aga khan's stud, where i saw sea the stars, his bone was what impressed me, and the fact he is very impressive without being top heavy, so maybe that  region, kildare, is why the stud is situated there, on limestone like the blue grass regions of  usa, not sure though.!


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## cefyl (2 April 2012)

tristar said:



			EKW try being a highly sensitive and intelligent animal that is totally aware of what is happening, then to lose your life in painfull and tragic circumstances, very young, when you have personally experienced this you will be qualified to speak for the animals.

if a pony hurts itself in the field here, it will be dealt with immediately and quietly, there is always someone here, horses are our life and their welfare comes before all else.

sadly a large part of the problem is that they are so young, they have not yet gained their full skeletal strength, are in a state of growth and therefore somewhat unbalanced, maybe this contributes.
		
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Tristar as you ingnored a previous question re: your above claims let me ask again.

So your ponies will be dealt with IMMEDIATELY if it hurts itself in your field?  How?  How do you know IMMEDIATELY it injures itself?  Do you have someone stand watch 24 / 7?  Day and night?  Or do your ponies only ever go out when there is someone available to stand supervising them?  And your vet must live and work from your premises to be available immediately too!


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## amage (2 April 2012)

cefyl said:



			Tristar as you ingnored a previous question re: your above claims let me ask again.

So your ponies will be dealt with IMMEDIATELY if it hurts itself in your field?  How?  How do you know IMMEDIATELY it injures itself?  Do you have someone stand watch 24 / 7?  Day and night?  Or do your ponies only ever go out when there is someone available to stand supervising them?  And your vet must live and work from your premises to be available immediately too!
		
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In fairness to Tristar it is not beyond the realms of possibility that there could be someone always around when horses/ponies are turned out and if the poster has their own gun no reason why they could not put their own animal down if necessary. It wouldn't be common but could be the case


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## Luci07 (2 April 2012)

Can we go back to the breeding debate? as I am woefully uninformed on this and finding the commentary fasinating! From a purely personal perspective, when last at Ascot sales there were a lot of poor confirmation types but they seemed to sell well by record. A keen racing friend had shares in what was a good racehorse, but boy was it poorly put together and broke down early. I did say that purely from an equine viewpoint, he would be better off if his syndicate went for form AND confirmation as horse would always have a second career (as his syndicate like to give their horses another life after racing).

Many times when humans breed to improve we end up having to go back several steps. Perhaps, after reading the more well informed commentaries on this post, that would seem to be the case now with TB's


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## cefyl (2 April 2012)

amage said:



			In fairness to Tristar it is not beyond the realms of possibility that there could be someone always around when horses/ponies are turned out and if the poster has their own gun no reason why they could not put their own animal down if necessary. It wouldn't be common but could be the case
		
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And you are from what planet ???  Even at night they are "on watch"?  

I or another person "is always around" here at our UK home or at our property in the USA but no one stands watch over each field that has stock in it, we have security cameras on all gates but it cannot possibly scan every section of field and be watched all day, there will always be a lag.  The OP implied that even at the top racecourses they cannot respond as quickly to humanly destroy an animal as they will at their own property which is a preposterous presumption.

Even the greatest meet unfortunate fates when turned out and may not be noticed immediately.  The late and great Blue Hors Matine springs to mind (sadly).


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## SusannaF (2 April 2012)

Honeylight said:



			I also wonder if synthetic surfaces, interval training, treadmills & modern cubes could have a leaning on fatalities. In the old days yearlings were finished in limestone areas to promote healthy bone, big stud owner like Lord Derby & the Aga Khan had nurseries in Ireland or Yorkshire for this reason. Does anyone know if this practice still occurs? suppose it's all supplements now, but they might just not be as good as the real thing, my old GP said that eating three oranges was better than taking a vitamin c supplement.
		
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The TB history book I'm reading quoted the Duke of Cavendish in the seventeenth century. He remarks on the incredible bone density of the kind of Arab, Turk and Barb horses that are the ancestors of the modern TB and said that by comparison, Flemish horses had terrible legs. 

Not sure if that's of use or not, but I wonder how much of that is nature or nurture.


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## amage (2 April 2012)

cefyl said:



			And you are from what planet ???  Even at night they are "on watch"?  

I or another person "is always around" here at our UK home or at our property in the USA but no one stands watch over each field that has stock in it, we have security cameras on all gates but it cannot possibly scan every section of field and be watched all day, there will always be a lag.  The OP implied that even at the top racecourses they cannot respond as quickly to humanly destroy an animal as they will at their own property which is a preposterous presumption.

Even the greatest meet unfortunate fates when turned out and may not be noticed immediately.  The late and great Blue Hors Matine springs to mind (sadly).
		
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eh you don't have to be rude to me....I said it was a possibility not that what I said was fact. I merely offered an opinion. This forum is getting worse by the minute


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## cefyl (2 April 2012)

amage said:



			eh you don't have to be rude to me....I said it was a possibility not that what I said was fact. I merely offered an opinion. This forum is getting worse by the minute
		
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Not being rude, just realistic.  And as you, an opinion.


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## amage (2 April 2012)

cefyl said:



			Not being rude, just realistic.  And as you, an opinion.
		
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Asking me what planet am I on just because you disagree with what i wrote is rude! And reread what I said....I at no stage said it was a definite, in fact described it as not beyond the realms of possibility ie not likely but certainly possible! I do feel it is highly unlikely a horse would be sent on its way quicker at home than at the racecourse but it is not impossible!!


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## amage (2 April 2012)

Luci07 said:



			Can we go back to the breeding debate? as I am woefully uninformed on this and finding the commentary fasinating! From a purely personal perspective, when last at Ascot sales there were a lot of poor confirmation types but they seemed to sell well by record. A keen racing friend had shares in what was a good racehorse, but boy was it poorly put together and broke down early. I did say that purely from an equine viewpoint, he would be better off if his syndicate went for form AND confirmation as horse would always have a second career (as his syndicate like to give their horses another life after racing).

Many times when humans breed to improve we end up having to go back several steps. Perhaps, after reading the more well informed commentaries on this post, that would seem to be the case now with TB's
		
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When discussing breeding I am always reminded by what an old trainer told me about horses being blown up because they are closely related to a very good horse: "I am a fine upstanding citizen who contributes to the community, my brother is in jail for fraud, my sister in jail for murder and don't even ask about the cousins!!". He was saying it in jest but it did open my eyes....when buying tbs the OH goes for what he likes in the flesh, pedigree is important but the mare line is far more important than the sire. There are a couple of sires we stay away from if they have known issues eg breeding wind issues. that being said we don't have the huge budgets to buy the big money horses so tend to go for the lesser known pedigrees that we like the look of! So far (touch wood;-)) it's working.


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## Honeylight (2 April 2012)

amage said:



			When discussing breeding I am always reminded by what an old trainer told me about horses being blown up because they are closely related to a very good horse: "I am a fine upstanding citizen who contributes to the community, my brother is in jail for fraud, my sister in jail for murder and don't even ask about the cousins!!". He was saying it in jest but it did open my eyes....when buying tbs the OH goes for what he likes in the flesh, pedigree is important but the mare line is far more important than the sire. There are a couple of sires we stay away from if they have known issues eg breeding wind issues. that being said we don't have the huge budgets to buy the big money horses so tend to go for the lesser known pedigrees that we like the look of! So far (touch wood;-)) it's working.
		
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That is a very interesting & wise theory! Conformation is so important; remember the horse by Northern Dancer that Sheik Mohammed spent a fortune out bidding Coolmore for in the 1980s Snaafi Dancer. That one had flat feet, club foot & small ears....it never raced!
I had a quick look at the pedigrees of the horses that died; Foxhunt has any number of crosses to Northern Dancer & Native Dancer. Grand Vent is in bred to Northern Dancer at the 4th & 3rd remove, he was sired by Sirrocco who has some stout & solid blood on his top line & Bronze Cannon has three crosses of Northern Dancer & four of Native Dancer.
It is practically impossible to find a stallion in the UK or Ireland that hasn't any Northern Dancer.


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## Elf On A Shelf (2 April 2012)

Honeylight said:



			It is practically impossible to find a stallion in the UK or Ireland that hasn't any Northern Dancer.
		
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And this is why Coolmore, Godolphin ad Juddmont should take note and come and pay an absolute fortune for some of my own wee beasties! 

http://www.horsetalk.co.nz/news/2012/01/200.shtml

Proper British Shetlands - not that daft dainty American one in the picture!


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## SusannaF (3 April 2012)

EKW said:



			And this is why Coolmore, Godolphin ad Juddmont should take note and come and pay an absolute fortune for some of my own wee beasties! 

http://www.horsetalk.co.nz/news/2012/01/200.shtml

Proper British Shetlands - not that daft dainty American one in the picture!
		
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I loved this!

The TB history I'm reading was written before this was known. As I read through all the "modern" theories about TB origin I want to say, "IT'S SHETLANDS! SHETLANDS!"

I wonder what a scaled up shetland would look like and how it would move?


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## Elf On A Shelf (3 April 2012)

Probably like a fell at middle height and a suffolk punch when they go into horse size!! Lol


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## SusannaF (3 April 2012)

EKW said:



			Probably like a fell at middle height and a suffolk punch when they go into horse size!! Lol
		
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A friend of mine had a shettie that could keep up with her ex-racer. Made me think of a mate's Jack Russell chasing a retriever...


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## tristar (3 April 2012)

well they do have shetland grand national races at some of the big shows, complete with little jockeys in colours etc. one of the most entertaining and cute events, and  no-one  gets injured or killed.


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## Fantasy_World (3 April 2012)

Vicki_Krystal said:



			Very sad.

http://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/31032012/58/racing-richest-day-marred-tragedy.html

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Race should never have been re-run after his demise. Will there be pms on all the horses that died at the track that day as we do in the UK?


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## freckles22uk (3 April 2012)

Im glad I asked why the horses might of broke their legs.... fasinating thread...


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## Fantasy_World (3 April 2012)

EKW said:



			Try wired to the moon on adrenaline! Feeling no pain and pumped full of drugs before they can begin to feel any! Injury assessed, decision made and horse either being trucked off to horsepital or put down within 10mins. 

VS

Pony in field, galloping along, breaks leg - how long until they get checked again and someone notices? How long until the vet gets there? How long until damage assessment is done? How long until the decision is made?

And people say racing is cruel.
		
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EKW I agree with you on this having seen a horse suffer for at the very least over an hour waiting for a vet to come to end its suffering. It was not known at the time that the horse had a broken leg though, it wasn't obvious. It had fractured its humerus and the weather was awful, very, very cold which would have added to the pain as he was shivering with the cold and shock combined. Owner and I did everything we could for the horse until the vet arrived. It was very sad and not least because I did not dare give any bute in case it masked anything. In hindsight wish I had now to take off the edge.
If this had been a horse in a race it would have been dealt with in a very short space of time. 
Yes the adrenaline is pumping which masks a lot of -if not all the pain- which you do not get with ponio at home in the field.
Accidents can happen anytime, anywhere, but in the case at Cheltenham and the Cross Country course I blame the going and the same in Dubai where 3 horses died in one race.
Too much of a coincidence that as the pace was not strong in the re-run ( didn't see the first running). 
You have mentioned conformation and its affect on racehorses, yes it is a factor.
However I too have witnessed more fatalities on both codes in the last ten years than I ever have. 
I have watched racing for nearly 30 years, worked in the industry and have friends who work in various jobs throughout the industry, even at the top level.
I have been accused quite wrongly of being anti racing ( not by you) which is laughable. There is no one quite committed to the sport as I. I live and breathe it. In fact when I worked in racing my holidays were worked around racing, not the other way around and that is for someone who was being paid peanuts for their job and loyalty.
I did it for the love of racing and to be near horses which I admire immensely.
If I have something to say about the sport either positive or negative I will say it.
No other equine sport looks after their horses as well as in racing in my opinion.
However there is room for improvement as no one is perfect.
I too have also mentioned breeding and its effect on the sport.
There is too much dainty and speedy flat racing pedigree being bred into National Hunt racing for instance. My own opinion is to supply the demand for horses to be ready to race earlier over jumps. Very few people want or can afford store horses these days.
We have lost a lot of the lords and ladies on the National Hunt scene and many of their children don't seem to be interested in taking over.
Apart from a few business magnates like Wylie, Hales and McManus ( first ones to spring to mind) there are not as many owners these days in that code who can afford to stick their horses in fields for a few years to grow and mature.
Racing partnerships, clubs and syndicates are on the increase. They want horses that can run now, not race a few years down the line.
Forget the likes of Elite Racing club, they have been around a while, have their own breeding programme and have enough paying members to cover costs.
I miss the good old fashioned chasing types I used to see over jumps. Even many of the hurdlers are changing with the increase in smaller, lighter framed individuals who you know will struggle in size, heart and legs to become a chaser.
In the past many of the hurdle races were seen as a prelude to the following seasons novice chase campaign, although the hurdles that they have at tracks like Haydock perhaps seem better suited to the job ( being like mini fences, rather than flights).
As for the flat it is an area I am not as well versed in as jump racing is my passion although I do still follow it.
Breeding certainly has a part to play and I think that horses with poor conformation and a poor racing record should be left out of the breeding game.
You cannot make a good racehorse by mixing a substandard mare with an amazing stallion, or vice versa, in my opinion. Odd flukes do occur though, but generally speaking no.
A quick look through the racecard on any given day and you will see low grade handicaps, sellers and claimers at most meetings.
Which horses fill these races, mostly poor ones?
Horses getting on in years and past their best, horses returning from layoffs/injuries and what I would refer to as 'chaff' horses.
Yes one could argue these races have a place in racing on one hand but in the other you have to question are these races being run as a filler on racecards or to supply a need for demand of poor and low grade horses? 
The breeding of racehorses seriously needs to be looked at. Most of the problems in racing stem from this, over production and the production of inferior stock.


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## SusannaF (3 April 2012)

Thank you for the considered contribution, Fantasy World.


One thing that puzzles me. Surely it's common knowledge that most horses will never earn enough to break even with the expense of keeping them. If that's the case, why not leave 'em in a field a while longer? Or race them less?

Or is it all about betting or owners with unrealistic expectations or overambitious trainers?


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## Elf On A Shelf (3 April 2012)

I think a lot of the new, younger generation of owners are the ones that want instant results. I would say that a 30yo that has made a quick buck and bought a racehorse to show off is one of these people - instant results, instant popularity. Then say a 60-70yo has saved up and bought a horse to enjoy in their retirement, they are more likely to wait, be patient and enjoy their racing much more than the yoingsters. Unfortunately we seem to be getting much more of the former and not enough of the latter these days.


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## Elf On A Shelf (3 April 2012)

As to the breeding - as much as I love the Coolmore stud they have flooded the market with the same lines. And then between them and Godolphin being so pig headed and not crossing their lines over they are now both pretty much line breeding within themselves.


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## tristar (3 April 2012)

well i was thinking about very young trainers, not wishing to insult anyone or deny their success,  but i was wondering how can they have the experience and comprehensive knowledge necessary?, it takes most  people a lifetime to learn about horses, unless of  course you are born to it, and cope with the all important finances and pressure of  giving owners a result, not to  mention  selection of horses bought at auction etc. they can't all be like Aiden O'brien.


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## Miss L Toe (3 April 2012)

EKW said:



			I think a lot of the new, younger generation of owners are the ones that want instant results. I would say that a 30yo that has made a quick buck and bought a racehorse to show off is one of these people - instant results, instant popularity. Then say a 60-70yo has saved up and bought a horse to enjoy in their retirement, they are more likely to wait, be patient and enjoy their racing much more than the yoingsters. Unfortunately we seem to be getting much more of the former and not enough of the latter these days.
		
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Trainers will ask the owner what type he wants, and price to pay. 
So a footballer might want a small syndicated two year old to run several times in a year at minor courses. The social side will be of greater importance than the quality of the race.
An older more experienced owner might want something to run at Royal Ascot, be prepared for failure, and yet pay out a fair amount of cash, plus train at a top yard with the best facilities.


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## Miss L Toe (3 April 2012)

tristar said:



			well i was thinking about very young trainers, not wishing to insult anyone or deny their success,  but i was wondering how can they have the experience and comprehensive knowledge necessary?, it takes most  people a lifetime to learn about horses, unless of  course you are born to it, and cope with the all important finances and pressure of  giving owners a result, not to  mention  selection of horses bought at auction etc. they can't all be like Aiden O'brien.
		
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They usually have it in their family lines, maybe riding out from their teenage years, pupil apprentice trainer in top yards and maybe worked in the US or Australia. 
To get a licence to train they have to go through various hoops and hurdles, including business and practical courses, plus have a letter of intent from a number of owners, plus enough cash to see them through the first year or so, and premises lined up. Then they need good results in their first year to pull in fresh owners.
Read Paul Nicholls autobiography for a few NH pointers.
Some trainers [like ex-footballers] take up training later in life, they will need good staff to help them through the first few years, a good portion of their previous earnings, and loads of sporting contacts.


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## Fantasy_World (3 April 2012)

SusannaF said:



			Thank you for the considered contribution, Fantasy World.


One thing that puzzles me. Surely it's common knowledge that most horses will never earn enough to break even with the expense of keeping them. If that's the case, why not leave 'em in a field a while longer? Or race them less?

Or is it all about betting or owners with unrealistic expectations or overambitious trainers?
		
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I would say with the latter comment it is a combination of both. Some owners really don't realise that they have essentially a tin of dog food on four legs. A bit harsh I know but true. With some horses you don't know their true potential until they are raced as that is when they are truly tested, but surely the horse has shown some ability at home either up the gallops or over the schooling jumps or hurdles?
However there are horses racing every day that will never amount to much and at best will become a good hack for someone. 
Only when the trainer and/or owner acknowledges this do they eventually leave racing.
I have friends who own racehorses. Some still own them whilst others have in the past.
They have always seemed cheerful about the horses even when I am sure they know they will not be a worldbeater. 
It is not always the end product that matters to them but the taking part. In other words the prestige of owning a racehorse even if that amounts to owning a leg, ear or other part of the body. Knowing that you will be able to turn up at the track, walk into the owner and trainers bar. Stand in the parade ring in front of crowds of people who have come to see your horse race. At times it even allows you entry to premier meetings if your horse is good enough or your trainer is bold enough to run.
Not necessarily snobbery, although I have met owners who have acted with that attitude at the races, usually women in fact. Well off gentlemen have been just that, very polite on the whole, but cannot say all their wives have acted the same. Perhaps it is just the occasion that gets to them or that the horse becomes yet another status symbol alongside their fancy clothes, expensive handbags and stand out cars. 
I am not stereoptyping, this is true! Seen and heard with my own eyes when working in racing.
As for leaving horses in a field a while longer or racing less it depends on the age of the horse, the code it is racing over, its sex, who owns it and what (if any) its targets are?
Most flat horses start at 2. If they are exceptionally good they will win graded races and the lesser ones nurseries ( or handicaps for 2 year olds). Those horses who will excel at distances of a mile and upwards and if good enough will be aimed at races like the guineas, derby and oaks as 3 year olds. The lesser individuals, unless they have earned a ridiculous rating well above their ability at that stage will contest handicaps for 3 year old and above.
The number of races depends largely on their ability and what they will be aimed for.
If the horse is a decent handicapper for instance but the target is later in the year or even for its career as a 4 year old then chances are it will be entered into races when not fully fit, over the wrong trip/ground or too high a grade to get its rating to a winnable mark.
This does not factor in any potential injuries or sniffles the horse may endure that season.
The 3 year old classic contenders are generally quite lightly raced since they want the horse to have enough experience but still be on the upgrade before its target of say the guineas or derby. Usually any races which come after that are an afterthought if the horse was not good enough, or it was the wrong trip for it.
Betting does come into it as I have met very few owners who don't bet. Even if they didn't then you can guarantee either a stable hand, good friend or relative will enjoy a flutter on the horse.
It can be easier to achieve more winnings as an owner through betting than it is in prize money when you consider the average prize money for races less the usual expenses it concurs. 
Take the owner of Son of Flicka who won almost a million in betting on his horse when it won the Coral Cup hurdle at this year's Cheltenham Festival, compared to the prize money of just over £39,000 ( before expenses).
I personally know of owners winning at available odds of 66/1 on their horse and pocketing a fair bit. Betting public none the wiser as horse back after a lay off, but connections knew the horse had not missed a beat and well handicapped. Top jockey booked and horse romped home, I backed the horse myself as I had seen it at the yard whilst it was not racing and just coming back into work. I had a feeling about it but the owner had more than a feeling since it was his horse.
I would always argue until I am blue in the face that without betting there would be no racing since owners and those connected with the horses on the whole like to have a bet, besides the racing public. 
So betting does play a part in how often horses run in my view, particularly when handicappers are concerned. Of course owners and trainers plan a coup, it doesn't always come off as the horse could have an off day, slip up/fall/get brought down, be badly drawn, not enough rain ( needs it soft) or too much rain ( need it good or faster). 
Owner/trainer Barney Curley is perhaps the best known gambling owner of our lifetime and the coups he has landed. JP Mcmanus over jumps is another who is not afraid to land big bets either. 
Handicaps are manipulated and so can races be too so as to increase the odds of a horse next time it runs. With the cameras and technology available today it is becoming harder but still it goes on. I have seen horses particularly on the all weather purposely boxed in on the rails and unable to get out for a run. Some jump tracks have blind spots at fences where a horse could be pulled up or jockey ship off and before anyone questions that comment, check out racing threads and see how many times you will read people say that jockeys have had a very light seat.
There have also been high profile cases involving jockeys on both codes with regard to race fixing and this was made more profitable once there were markets in which horses could be layed to lose. If people 'in the know' knew a horse quite prominent in the betting could not win then there is a high chance of making money on it to lose and most likely in some cases more than would be made by backing it to win. Easy money, only snag comes when the horse is a lucky winner ie a horse falling or pulling up in front, or favourite not firing and it being too obvious for the horse to then lose a race. 
I have seen a lot of racing, I have recorded many years of it too and I have seen races in which I have questioned either the winners ability to win such a race or of horses that should have won not winning and there have not always been plausible excuses.
cont ......


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## Fantasy_World (3 April 2012)

As for national hunt in Britain then as I think may have been stated by EKW either on this thread or another most start their career proper at 4 or 5.
It can be either in a national hunt flat race, novice/maiden hurdle or novice/maiden chase.
There are some juvenile hurdle races in the UK for 3 year olds which are primarily used by either flat raced horses or those with a flat pedigree.
Some horses entering the National hunt scene ( even in bumpers) may have already raced between the flags at point to points, the majority of which coming from Irish meetings.
Horses over the jumps have many options available to them. Those which start in bumpers (NHF) may decide to stay in that sphere the whole season or progress to hurdles/chases later on.
Some horses which start a novice hurdle campaign may stick to the novice route, go handicapping ( once rated) or switch to chasing.
Novice chasers again may stick to that route, go handicapping or even revert to hurdles again ( that season or in the future) either handicapping or novice hurdling depending on if they have already won a hurdle race and when. 
The rules to handicapping are similar to the flat with 2 mile hurdlers being about the same I would say as 6 furlong horses in their ability to be able to turned out quickly again to race. 
3 mile horses find it more taxing and so do not run as often. 
A horse could rattle up a sequence over hurdles or fences either as a novice or handicap. 
Trainer Martin Pipe was well known for this back in the day and also for turning out horses quickly again before the handicapper could re-assess ( before 7 days) if they believed that the horse would end up being a lower rating with a penalty on its back compared to the new BHB rating. 
This would affect how many times a horse would run. If a horse had a decent chance of completing a hat trick or four timer, especially at the start of a season over jumps ( when a lot of big guns don't play their hands) then they would run them, sometimes in quick succession. Ground is also a key factor, hence why you will see some NH horses out in September/October and then do not resurface until the following spring as they need better ground. The big trainers tend to bring out their better horses towards the middle of November onwards as there are usually good races on the calendar then across all levels, and juice in the ground is guaranteed.
Likewise some horses do not make their debut or seasonal debut over jumps until November and then race up until April at the latest ( or earlier if we have a dry spring).
This happens in the flat game too with horses who turn out in March and April being the ones who usually re-appear in late autumn with some juice. Although AW racing complicates matters a tad as some horses can adapt to turf and fibresand equally and so can race as often as their bodies will allow them too.
Some trainers also use AW racing for their jumpers too in order to get them fit. Twice now the tracks have put on flat races for jumpers when we had bad weather and abandonments. Horses that would otherwise been at home and either in a pool, or up the fibresand ( if they had it) were now racing as the turf tracks were frozen off or else under snow. 
I think I will stop there but I hope the post has offered a few angles upon which to consider as possible answers for your questions?


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## Dobiegirl (3 April 2012)

Considering the sad subject of the initial posting this has turned into a delightful and informative thread. Had we had the anti racing posters on here we would never have  got  the educating and thought provoking posts .


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## alliersv1 (3 April 2012)

Dobiegirl said:



			Considering the sad subject of the initial posting this has turned into a delightful and informative thread. Had we had the anti racing posters on here we would never have  got  the educating and thought provoking posts .
		
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Agreed. I feel I have nothing to add to the discussion, but have found it fascinating reading.


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## Dab (3 April 2012)

Dobiegirl said:



			Considering the sad subject of the initial posting this has turned into a delightful and informative thread. Had we had the anti racing posters on here we would never have  got  the educating and thought provoking posts .
		
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alliersv1 said:



			Agreed. I feel I have nothing to add to the discussion, but have found it fascinating reading. 

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^^^ agreed. i was flicking through the thread expecting to see fisty cuffs and a right ding dong about 'too-race' or 'not-to-race', but instead was wondefully enlightened about the merits or otherwise of TB racing breeding lines.


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## SusannaF (3 April 2012)

I'm enjoying the insight too! Thank you again, Fantasy  World.

Has anyone written and published anything critical about the Darley operation, if it is all that people here are saying it is?


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## Echo Bravo (3 April 2012)

Have enjoyed reading the posts on the horses breeding,hadn't realised how thin the bloodlines have become,but what you are really saying is that it all comes down to money either way.


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## Honeylight (4 April 2012)

If we look at fairly recent history a lot of intense inbreeding occurred in the racing empire of Marcel Boussac, who in the 1940s & 50s was France's leading owner.
Here are links to some pedigrees some may find interesting:
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=10247690
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=10130843
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=769217

Coronation V the last of these was an outstanding filly who was second in the Epsom Oaks & won the Prix D l'arc de Triomphe. There were high hopes for her as a broodmare but she was infertile & didn't conceive at all. There is dispute over whether this was to do with her close inbreeding.
This policy of line breeding within a stud worked well for Boussac for a while but eventually the quality of the foals was compromised & the winners ceased to flow. I don't recall anyone doing such intense incestuous breeding in more recent times. However the generally shrinking gene pool is not a good thing; if Boussac had wanted he could have sourced out-crosses at this time, now it is difficult.
In NH breeding past winners have been mainly outcrossed but now with the introduction of cast off Northern Dancer stallions into the mix many are in bred to him. This might well be a real problem in the future as regards soundness.


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## katina (5 April 2012)

a sigh of relief....coming onto a thread about a racehorse and not having ex racing people jumping down your throat for loving and working in the sport! keep it up people! its all about educating those that dont know about the sport (yes people claim they know what racing is about...but do they?) unfortunately northern dancer is in too many bloodlines - as a result of the coolmore and darley feud, but having done a dissertation on inbreeding, it is not as bad as people make out...


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## Honeylight (5 April 2012)

Inbreeding has gone on for years of course......
Really interested in hearing about your dissertation findings Katina.
For any one interested I have a racing & breeding blog:
http://crepello.tumblr.com/


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## katina (5 April 2012)

yep agreed has gone on for years but at least its becoming more recognised now...am not at home at the moment but will send you some info! was a really interesting diss to do!


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## Clodagh (5 April 2012)

I haven't read all the replies so sorry if I am repeating but do you remember that programme last year where they dissected the racehorse? A lady that was interviewed said they couldn't get any faster as we had now peaked and skeletal weakness would come now,. (Not her exact words, but her gist).


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## georgie0 (5 April 2012)

So refreshing to see such an interesting debate on HHO!  Love it, very enlightening.


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## SusannaF (6 April 2012)

katina said:



			a sigh of relief....coming onto a thread about a racehorse and not having ex racing people jumping down your throat for loving and working in the sport! keep it up people! its all about educating those that dont know about the sport (yes people claim they know what racing is about...but do they?) unfortunately northern dancer is in too many bloodlines - as a result of the coolmore and darley feud, but having done a dissertation on inbreeding, it is not as bad as people make out...
		
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I'd be interested in seeing the dissertation!

There was a report last year which said that inbreeding in TBs was not as bad as it is in pedigree dogs but that there was a danger of that in the future. 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/wondermonkey/2011/11/bred-to-destruction.shtml




			The study showed that there had been a small but significant (i.e. real) increase in inbreeding over the past 40 years, and that most of the increase was from the mid 1990s to present.

Which is the time period during which many things have changed in the breeding of Thoroughbred horses, says Dr Binns. In the 1960s it was usual for each stallion to cover 40-50 mares per season, in the mid-1990s this number jumped to 150+.

Nowadays, high quality stallions are also shuttled around the world to cover mares, for example, being sent to the southern hemisphere to breed with mares during the quiet season for breeding in the northern hemisphere.

This in part is to meet the modern demand for producing yearlings that sell for high prices at auction rather than the previous breeding goal of producing superior racehorses.

Overall that means fewer stallions are siring a greater proportion of offspring.

The current trend toward greater inbreeding is worrisome, say the scientists in the journal Animal Genetics, which has published their research.

Dr Binns says he doesnt believe the inbreeding is, at the moment, greatly contributing to the number of fractures sustained by racehorses, and there is no evidence it directly led to the fractures of Eight Belles, Barbaro or Rewilding.

But he suspects it is contributing to the failure rate of pregnancy among breeding Thoroughbreds. So called reproductive depression is one of the first signs of inbreeding problems seen in populations of animals.
		
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## Honeylight (6 April 2012)

Yes Susan I read that article & the comments are very interesting. It seems I am not alone in thinking that losing the Blandford, Gainsborough & Hurry On lines was something of a disaster.
One of the difficulties is the racing of horses using diuretics & painkillers in the USA; there are two many USA bloodlines in pedigrees.
This has been a most interesting thread.
Last Good Friday I saw Foxhunt at the Middleham Open Day, very sad he should have lost his life in such a tragic manner.


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## SusannaF (15 April 2012)

Apologies if anyone posted this further up-thread, but who saw this New York Times exposé on drug use and fatalities in US horse racing?


http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/25/u...acks.html?scp=1&sq=maimed horse racing&st=cse


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## alliersv1 (15 April 2012)

SusannaF said:



			Apologies if anyone posted this further up-thread, but who saw this New York Times exposé on drug use and fatalities in US horse racing?


http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/25/u...acks.html?scp=1&sq=maimed horse racing&st=cse

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That's fascinating and depressing in equal measures.
Thanks for posting .


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## Dab (15 April 2012)

SusannaF said:



			Apologies if anyone posted this further up-thread, but who saw this New York Times exposé on drug use and fatalities in US horse racing?


http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/25/u...acks.html?scp=1&sq=maimed horse racing&st=cse

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That makes for very uncomfortable reading, but thanks for posting.

Is this the reason why we appear (no research by me) to be experiencing a higher number of breakdowns and fractures in this country? or the failures with the breeding lines? or both?


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## Honeylight (15 April 2012)

Since we have been mentioning breeding & its relation to injuries I post a link to Neptune Collonges  pedigree because it is an interesting one:
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?d=neptune+collognes&x=18&y=13
His dam is a Selle Francias & if you look at images of some of the stallions in the bottom half of his pedigree you will see they have a lot of substance.

Interesting as well & I hope something of a coincidence is that the two horses who died in the Grand National yesterday had Sadlers Wells very close up in their breeding.


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## tristar (15 April 2012)

looking for reasons of breakdown etc, QUOTE:  'modern  methods may try to achieve more than has been done by men who laid the foundations of british stud success, why attribute our present day failures to inbreeding and kindred causes, are causes not more easily found in in the paddock and food house?  a hundred and less years ago breeders bred horses for themselves under natural conditions, nowadays,  quite 75 per cent are bred for sale at doncaster, new market, or dublin, the result is that these sale yearlings are unnaturally forced, and when they come to bear the strain of training they break down' 

bloodstock breeders review,  1913, it would seem they having a similar conversation then!


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## SusannaF (15 April 2012)

tristar said:



			looking for reasons of breakdown etc, QUOTE:  'modern  methods may try to achieve more than has been done by men who laid the foundations of british stud success, why attribute our present day failures to inbreeding and kindred causes, are causes not more easily found in in the paddock and food house?  a hundred and less years ago breeders bred horses for themselves under natural conditions, nowadays,  quite 75 per cent are bred for sale at doncaster, new market, or dublin, the result is that these sale yearlings are unnaturally forced, and when they come to bear the strain of training they break down' 

bloodstock breeders review,  1913, it would seem they having a similar conversation then!
		
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VERY interesting! And if they were saying that _then_... Hmmm.

And yes, after the discussion in this thread I thought it was very interesting that Neptune was French-bred and wondered if there was a little more "substance" in his pedigree.

A couple of months ago a friend posted footage that PETA collected of US 2yos breaking down while they were being breezed for buyers at a major auction. I couldn't watch it and I hate PETA, but the evidence was pretty damning. Even if they were just editing together the fatalities, that's still a LOT of fatalities.

http://blogs.equisearch.com/horsehealth/2011/09/13/peta-video-thoroughbreds-breakdown-twoyearold/

Does the same thing happen at British sales? I doubt it. But I don't know for certain. The stats that compared US, British and Australian fatalities showed that dirt was the most lethal surface for horses to run on. It must be a major factor but surely not the only one. 

Whatever this issue is, it's complex, but the big owner-breeders need to start paying attention and the US really has to do something about drugs. They have just managed to ban Rick Dutrow for ten years, after multiple, multiple violations  he's the guy that dosed all his horses with all the steroids that were legal, regardless of whether they needed them or not.


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## Honeylight (15 April 2012)

I haven't heard of this sort of thing happening over here, but then it isn't something that would necessarily be publicised. 
We do not know what time scale these were collected over. there are serious things wrong in US racing & it made me angry to see someone from over there blogging about our "cruel Grand National". At least none of the horses ran with painkilling drugs, steroids or huge doses of diuretic.


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## SusannaF (15 April 2012)

This is the WSJ article that goes with it:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424053111904103404576558850352746750.html

Doesn't say where these were all collected.


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## tristar (16 April 2012)

re: neptune collonges being part selle francais, i see that interestingly diamant de semilly, world champion of show jumping by  team, has in fact the afore mentioned' hurry on' through 'ultimate' no less than four times in his sire and dam lines and 'orange peel' through his sire twice so is related to neptune, and 'vieux manoir' figures in a lot of selle francais show jumping pedigrees, 'diamant' is a big strong horse almost heavy hunter style.


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## Elf On A Shelf (16 April 2012)

The French have the right idea. They aren't breeding purebred thorouhgbreds. They aren't crossing for speed, or stamina as their only desire. They are breeding horses that will last. They bring them on slowly and build them up over time. In Britain especially there seems to be a trend of buying horses that have stayed a mile and a half or so on the flat and then training them for jumping. THe true old fashioned chasers are dying out and being replaced but daintier flat horses. Gone are the days when you would wait for your horse, you would Point it for a season to educate it. You would spend a season on 2 over hurdles to give it real track experience and then you would sed it chasing. The longevity of these horses careers says it all. These day your 'flat turned jumper' last no where near as long. If they don't break physically then they break mentally. 

Britian needs to open its stud book up again slightly and bring in some new blood to put some stoutness back into the breed. All it takes is for one major owner/breeder to invest the time and effort into it then I am sure it will take off and everyone will be breeding for toughness and longevity, not instant 15mins of fame.


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## tristar (17 April 2012)

EKW hits the nail on the head for me, all done in too much of rush.
agree with the outcrossing.
i only once used a nijinsky line stallion and bred a filly with a wonky leg, first ever, so outcrossed to arab blood the result has legs like iron rods.

i don't know the figures for darley, coolmore etc, but a breeder called james ben ali haggin in usa, owned the  44,000 acres stud called rancho del paso in california, in 1901 he sold 241 yearlings bred on that estate, and when the stud was dispersed  in 1905,  464 mares were catalogued.


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## SusannaF (28 May 2012)

My brother sent me some info about a new study which shows that TB inbreeding has accelerated since the 1990s  I thought I'd revive this thread as it seemed to be one where we were having an unusually civilised discussion for HHO 

http://susannaforrest.wordpress.com/2012/05/28/racehorse-inbreeding-accelerates/


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