# How do I breed a racehorse. Advice for beginner needed.



## GMT (27 November 2011)

Hello All

I am hoping some forumites might help with advice and information with my very early plans to breed a racehorse.

My Situation
My daughter owns two horses, (unsuitable for breeding). she is at present taking her degree in equine science at Bishop Burton. We live in the North-East of England. We both have an interest in breeding a racehorse. Because we do not have our own land we have livery for the two horses, its always been a major barrier to breeding. Lately we have made an enquiry to a large stud near Otterburn which is close to our home where we are going to visit and discuss our hopes of breeding a racehorse. The stud has several very good stallions available.

What I want out of this venture
The experience of breeding a beautiful athletic animal. To go through the process of breeding so as to benefit my daughters career. And a little bit is so I can recieve the Gold Cup at cheltenham !

How do I breed this horse
This is the area I struggle with, should I go down to Doncaster sales and buy a cheap mare who is well bred and use this as my broodmare ? If this is the way forward how do I make sure the pedigree matches the stallions I have on offer ? Do I lease a mare ? If so where do I find well bred Tbds available for lease, and how much would I be looking at paying ? When I manage to find a suitable mare and take it to the stud my thoughts are I would have to leave it there long term so as to be covered and staying there until she foals, is this a typical way to do this ? Noting the livery we have at home is no way suitable for foals.

Costs
My very initial thoughts on costs are that for the first year the costs would be around:
One year livery for the mare £4000
Stud Fee £2000
Foaling £200
Cost of purchasing a mare £3000
Vets fees £1000
Total £10.2K
Any views on these numbers would be greatly appreciated.

Overall
Any and I mean any advise or suggestions would be fantastic, apart from ordering several breeding books and my iminent meeting with the owners of the local stud I have knowhere alse to look for advise and to be able to ask questions, so feel free, the sort of thing I would love to hear is "well this is the way I would do it ".

Thanks for reading

rgds GMT


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## be positive (27 November 2011)

If this is a serious plan you have,your daughter should be learning that in her studies, to buy a mare , get a foal on the ground and to the racecourse, let alone winning, is at best a lottery at worst a financial and emotional disaster.

I would suggest that as you do not have either the facilities or the mare, you approach a reputable breeder and buy a share or shares in a mare or youngster, this will enable you to buy into an ongoing project with hopefully some proven success. You can get as involved as you can and many studs would probably welcome some financial input.

If you go ahead with your original plan your figures stopped at birth of the foal, once it arrives you have 2 to feed, worm, vet bills etc. Weaning of the foal would then incur 2 livery bills or would you then get rid of the mare or breed again, more stud fees etc. The list just goes on. 

It is a lovely idea in theory but if it was easy there would be less unwanted failed racehorses around.


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## GMT (27 November 2011)

Yes it is a serious plan. My daughter is just into her second year and is learning as you say but in no way in a position to make decisions at this point.
Unfortunately I dont like the idea of sharing or syndicating, I prefer to be in this with my daughter only. I hate that sort of expression "get rid" of the mare, we would always look after any horse we are resposible for. Of course I realise the costs of having two to feed and its at that point we would be making decisions about selling or keeping, seems a long way off at the moment.

Rgds GMT


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## starryeyes (27 November 2011)

Hi i thought you'd like to know about the ongoing experience i've having with breeding a racehorse.  We have at livery with us a mare who is owned by a syndicate hoping to breed a flat horse.  The mare is well bred but has appalling conformation (i wouldn't have bred from her) but has been placed in her only 3 starts before being injured.

She has been put to one of the stallions you are looking at.  The mare is due to foal early next year & i'm not sure her owners quite realised the cost involved in doing so.  

Livery costs of the mare kept at stud you can easily work out from the relevant stud website but read all the small print as to what is & is not charged for.  We are going through about £50 in feed alone for this mare per month, not including supplements (that takes it nearer £100)  

'Extras bills' ie. supplements, feet, worming, all need special attention when your mare is in foal & can very quickly mount up without you realising it.

Take a very good look around the stud you choose as proper care, attention & feeding during pregnancy can make all the difference to breeding a healthy foal.

Choose very carefully the stallion as well as the mare.  The mare should have good breeding as well as conformation & good 'breeding' conformation.  There are numerous ex-racehorses that you can pick up via the sales but a lot will have only produced mediocre progency even to very good stallions or are simply not good enough horses to have bred from.

If you want to breed a flat horse choose a flat bred mare & flat bred stallion & likewise jumping mare to jumping stallion (flat horses will cost more as a general rule)

I think to sum it up its a dream of mine (i have 2 very well bred racehorse mares) but also a bit of an unrealistic one.  To breed a racehorse that is any good costs nearer the £50,000 mark & even then is not a guaranteed success and its a different business alltogether going into the thoroughbred industry to the sports horse one.

Tread carefully, choose wisely & remortgage the house before you start!!!


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## magic104 (27 November 2011)

GMT said:



			Hello All

What I want out of this venture
The experience of breeding a beautiful athletic animal. To go through the process of breeding so as to benefit my daughters career. And a little bit is so I can recieve the Gold Cup at cheltenham !

Costs
My very initial thoughts on costs are that for the first year the costs would be around:
One year livery for the mare £4000
Stud Fee £2000
Foaling £200
Cost of purchasing a mare £3000
Vets fees £1000
Total £10.2K
Any views on these numbers would be greatly appreciated.


rgds GMT
		
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I know winning the Gold Cup is probably a tongue in cheek comment, but have you checked out the breeding of previous winners?  Have you then checked out how much the stud fees for the sires & what the mares cost to purchase?  Somehow I think you will be lucky with a 3k budget for the mare even in this climate.  Not impossible but if the expects struggle & they are churning out 1000's of horses a year why do you want to add to the carnage?  Your circumstances may change, then what?  A friend has just been given a perfectly sound 9yo with winnings of over 17k & earnings of over 29k just because he is now sick of racing.   A good home was quickly needed & he was given away.  There is not a thing wrong with him & he has taken to being a riding horse very well including jumping coloured poles.

Why not wait until you have both gained more experience?


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## magic104 (27 November 2011)

You may already have seen this if so then the one thing that stands out are the amount of Irish bred horses, so perhaps you could either move to Ireland or invest in an Irish bred mare put to an Irish bred stallion!

Cheltenham Gold Cup 


1924 - Present 
Compiled by Catherine Dewick and Patricia Erigero, assisted by Derek Gay
3 1/4 miles weight-for-age steeplechase, Prestbury Park 


Year Horse Owner Statistics Sire - Dam - Dam's Sire Family No. 
1924 Red Splash  Major Humphrey Wyndham  ch.g. 1919  Copper Ore - La Manche  11 - d 
1925 Ballinode (IRE)  Christopher Bentley ch.m. 1915  Machakos - Celia  11 - e  
1926 Koko (IRE) Frank Barbour  b.g. 1918  Santoi - Persister  5 - f  
1927 Thrown In  Lord Henry Stalbridge  ch.g. 1915  Beau Bill - Va Largo  4 - b  
1928 Patron Saint  F.W. Keen  b.g. 1923  St. Girons - V.M.C.  31  
1929 Easter Hero (IRE) John Hay Whitney  ch.g. 1920  My Prince - Easter Week  Arab Maid Family  
1930 Easter Hero (IRE) John Hay Whitney  ch.g. 1920  My Prince - Easter Week  Arab Maid Family  
1931 No Race  
1932 Golden Miller (IRE) Dorothy Paget  b.g. 1927  Goldcourt - Miller's Pride  16 - a  
1933 Golden Miller (IRE) Dorothy Paget  b.g. 1927  Goldcourt - Miller's Pride  16 - a  
1934 Golden Miller (IRE) Dorothy Paget  b.g. 1927  Goldcourt - Miller's Pride  16 - a  
1935 Golden Miller (IRE) Dorothy Paget  b.g. 1927  Goldcourt - Miller's Pride  16 - a  
1936 Golden Miller (IRE) Dorothy Paget  b.g. 1927  Goldcourt - Miller's Pride  16 - a  
1937 No Race  
1938 Morse Code  Lt.-Col. Dealtry C. Part  b. or ch. g. 1929 The Pilot - Heliograph  2 - h  
1939 Brendan's Cottage (IRE)  Mrs. Jean Smith-Bingham  b.g. 1930  Cottage- Brendan's Glory  22  
1940 Roman Hackle (IRE)  Dorothy Paget  b.g. 1933  Yutoi - Wanoya  8  
1941 Poet Prince David Sherbrooke  ch.g. 1932  Milton - Welsh Princess  23  
1942 Medoc II (FR)  Lord Hugh Sefton  b.g. 1934  Van - Menthe Poivre  7  
1943 Suspended 1943-44  
1945 Red Rower  Lord Henry Stalbridge  b.g. 1934  Rameses the Second - Red Maru  52  
1946 Prince Regent (IRE) James V. Rank  b.g. 1935 My Prince - Nemaea 5  
1947  Fortina (FR) Lord Ralph Grimsthorpe  ch.h. 1941  Formor - Bertina 4 - e 
1948  Cottage Rake (IRE) Frank L. Vickerman  br.g. 1939  Cottage - Hartingo  22  
1949  Cottage Rake (IRE) Frank L. Vickerman  br.g. 1939  Cottage - Hartingo  22  
1950  Cottage Rake (IRE) Frank L. Vickerman  br.g. 1939  Cottage - Hartingo  22  
1951  Silver Fame  Lord Hugh Bicester  ch.g. 1939  Werwolf - Silver Fairy  23 - a  
1952  Mont Tremblant (FR)  Dorothy Paget  ch.g. 1946  Gris Perle - Paltoquette 3 - f  
1953 Knock Hard  Mrs. Moya Keogh  ch.h. 1944 Domaha - Knocksouna  5 - i  
1954 Four Ten  Alan Strange  b.g. 1946  Blunderbuss - Undue Praise  2 - o  
1955 Gay Donald  Philip J. Burt  b.g. 1946  Gaylight - Pas de Quatre  8 - i  
1956 Limber Hill  James Davey  ch.g. 1947  Bassam - Mindoon  13 - a  
1957 Linwell (IRE)  David Brown  b.g. 1948  Rosewell - Rubia Linda  17 - b  
1958 Kerstin George H. Moore  br.m. 1950  Honor's Choice - Miss Kilcash  17 - b 
1959 Roddy Owen  Lord Oliver Fingall  b.g. 1949  Owenstown - Desla's Star  19 - c  
1960 Pas Seul  John Rogerson  b.g. 1953  Erin's Pride - Pas de Quatre  8 - i  
1961 Saffron Tartan Col. Guy R. Westmacott  br.g. 1951  Tartan - Kellsboro Witch  12  
1962 Mandarin Madame Peggy Hennessy  b.g. 1951  Deux pour Cent - Manada by Canot  1 - u  
1963 Mill House  Bill Gollings  b.g. 1957  King Hal - Nas na Riogh 21-a  
1964 Arkle (IRE) Anne, Duchess of Westminster  b.g. 1957  Archive - Bright Cherry  41  
1965  Arkle (IRE) Anne, Duchess of Westminster  b.g. 1957  Archive - Bright Cherry 41 
1966  Arkle (IRE) Anne, Duchess of Westminster  b.g. 1957  Archive - Bright Cherry 41  
1967  Woodland Venture  Harry H. Collins  b.g. 1960  Eastern Venture - Woodlander  5 - d  
1968  Fort Leney  Col. John Thomson  b.g. 1958  Fortina - Leney Princess  23  
1969 What a Myth  Lady Lucy Weir  ch.g. 1957  Coup de Myth - What a Din 5 - h  
1970 L'Escargot (IRE) Raymond R. Guest  ch.g. 1963  Escart III - What a Daisy 3 - i  
1971 L'Escargot (IRE) Raymond R. Guest  ch.g. 1963  Escart III - What a Daisy  3 - i  
1972 Glencaraig Lady  Patrick Doyle  ch.m. 1964  Fortina - Luckibash  4 - f  
1973 The Dikler  Mrs. Peggy August  b.g. 1963  Vulgan - Coronation Day  19 - c  
1974 Captain Christy  Mrs. Jane Samuel  b.g. 1967  Mon Capitaine - Christy's Bow  26  
1975 Ten Up  Anne, Duchess of Westminster  b.g. 1967  Raise You Ten - Irish Harp  3 - i  
1976 Royal Frolic  Sir Edward Hanmer  b.g. 1969  Royal Buck - Forward Miss 1 - g  
1977 Davy Lad  Anne Marie McGowan  b.g. 1970  David Jack - Jim's Mother  3 - i  
1978 Midnight Court  Mrs. Olive Jackson  b.g. 1971  Twilight Alley - Strumpet  9  
1979 Alverton  Snailwell Stud Co.  ch.g. 1970  Midsummer Night - Alvertona  1 - m  
1980 Master Smudge  Arthur Barrow  ch.g. 1972  Master Stephen - Lily Pond  4 - n  
1981 Little Owl (IRE) Robin and Jim Wilson  b.g. 1974  Cantab - Black Spangle  4 - c  
1982 Silver Buck Mrs. Christine Feather  br.g. 1972  Silver Cloud - Choice Archlesse  15 - a  
1983 Bregawn (IRE) James Kennelley  ch.g. 1974  Saint Denys - Miss Society  4 -d  
1984 Burrough Hill Lad  R. Stan Riley b.g. 1976 Rich Boy - Green Monkey  9 - e  
1985 Forgive n' Forget (IRE)  Tim Kilroe & Sons Ltd. ch.g. 1977  Precipice Wood - Tackienne  8 - j 
1986 Dawn Run (IRE)  Charmian D. Hill  b.m. 1978 Deep Run - Twilight Slave  6 - f  
1987 The Thinker Tom McDonagh  b.g. 1978  Cantab - Maine Pet  21  
1988 Charter Party (IRE)  Mrs. Claire Smith & Mrs. Jenny Mould  b.g. 1978  Document - Ahoy There  22 - d  
1989 Desert Orchid (Dessie)  Richard Buridge  gr.g. 1979  Grey Mirage - Flower Child  13 - a 
1990 Norton's Coin  Sirrell Griffiths  b.g. 1981 Mount Cassino - Grove Chance  3 - o 
1991 Garrison Savannah  Autofour Engineering  b.g. 1983  Random Shot - Merry Coin by Current Com  4 - d  
1992 Cool Ground Whitcombe Manor Racing Stables  b.g. 1982 Over the River - Merry Spring  23 - a  
1993 Jodami (IRE)  John N. Yeadon  b.g. 1985 Crash Course - Masterstown Lucy  8 - a  
1994 The Fellow  Marquesa Soldata de Moratalla  b.g.1985  Italic (SF) - L'Oranaise  12 - b*  
1995 Master Oats  Paul A. Matthews  ch.g. 1986 Oats - Miss Poker Face  10  
1996 Imperial Call (IRE)  Lisselan Farms  br.g. 1989  Callernish - Princess Menelek  7  
1997 Mr. Mulligan (IRE)  Michael and Geraldine Worcester  ch.g. 1988  Torus - Miss Manhattan  6 - f  
1998 Cool Dawn  Diane Harding  b.g. 1988  Over the River - Aran Tour  11  
1999 See More Business  Paul Barber  b.g.1990 Seymour Hicks - Miss Redlands  15 - a  
2000 Looks Like Trouble (IRE) Tim Collins  b.g. 1992  Zaffaran - Lavengaddy  10 - d  
2001  Cancelled due to Hoof and Mouth Disease Outbreak  
2002 Best Mate (IRE)  Jim Lewis  b.g. 1995  Un Desperado (FR) - Katday (FR) by Miller's Mate  1 - e  
2003 Best Mate (IRE)  Jim Lewis  b.g. 1995  Un Desperado (FR) - Katday (FR) by Miller's Mate 1 - e  
2004 Best Mate (IRE)  Jim Lewis  b.g. 1995  Un Desperado (FR) - Katday (FR) by Miller's Mate 1 - e  
2005 Kicking King (IRE)  Conor Clarkson  b.g. 1998  Old Vic - Fairy Blaze (IRE) by Good Thyne (USA) 8 - c 
2006 War of Attrition (IRE)  Gigginstown House Stud  br.g. 1999  Presenting (GB) - Una Juna (IRE) by Good Thyne (USA) 1 - l 
2007 Kauto Star  Clive D. Smith ch.g. 2000  Village Star - Kauto Relka by Port Etienne 12 - b 
2008 Denman  Barber/Findlay ch.g. 2000  Presenting (GB) - Polly Puttens (IRE) by Pollerton (GB) 4 
2009 Kauto Star  Clive D. Smith ch.g. 2000  Village Star - Kauto Relka by Port Etienne 12 - b 
2010 Imperial Commander (IRE)  Our Friends in the North b.g. 2001  Flemensfirth (USA) - Ballinlovane (IRE) by Le Moss (IRE) 2 - a 
2011 Long Run (FR)  Gabeur/Waley-Cohen b.g. 2005  Cadoudal (FR) - Libertina (FR) by Balsamo (FR) 1 - s


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## Alec Swan (27 November 2011)

Have I missed something,  or is there any purpose behind two identical threads,  running parallel with each other? 

Alec.


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## GMT (27 November 2011)

Sorry Alec, didnt mean to post the thread twice.

Magic, how do you invest in a brood mare ?

Rgds Glenn


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## magic104 (27 November 2011)

GMT said:



			Magic, how do you invest in a brood mare ?

Rgds Glenn
		
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I think breeding a race horse is a far greater risk then a sports horse & wouldnt even bother so there would be no investment.  I have known too many people try & fail.  My grandfather was a race horse lover/gambler who had many friends who owned/bred horses both here & in Kenya.  Horses who do well in sport are those that have not just the ability, training, but the heart for it.  No one can breed heart/will to win into an animal or human.  

Though there is no better thrill then watching a horse you have bred come under saddle & do well, it does not take away from the fact it is the most expensive way to go about getting a riding horse.  I would never add to the race horse population because the market it flooded already.  Therefore I am biased against it and negative in my attitude.  To date I have been lucky with what I have chosen to breed, but I spend a long, long time researching.  Only this last time I got caught out, but fate has a funny outlook sometimes!


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## GMT (27 November 2011)

Thanks for your words Magic, have to say I am shocked at the negativity on the Tbd breeding scene. Thankfully I love horses and dont see it simply as a financial position.

One thing I would like to find more about is investing in a broodmare, amazing that there isnt a site where you can find broodmares for sale, surely with so many Tbds out there there must be many for sale, but where ?

RgdsGMT


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## Spring Feather (27 November 2011)

GMT said:



			Thanks for your words Magic, have to say I am shocked at the negativity on the Tbd breeding scene. Thankfully I love horses and dont see it simply as a financial position.
		
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 It's not negativity it's realism.  Your budget does not sound inkeeping with your wants.




			One thing I would like to find more about is investing in a broodmare, amazing that there isnt a site where you can find broodmares for sale, surely with so many Tbds out there there must be many for sale, but where ?

RgdsGMT
		
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Racing people tend to buy at the bloodstock sales; Tattersalls, Doncaster, Goffs, Ascot Brightwells.


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## Luci07 (27 November 2011)

Why not try a different angle? So look into breeding and get an idea of the lines you like then why not approach the stud to see which syndicates are sending their mares to them? I have a racing mad friend and the way he can share a racehorse is to - as he says - own a foot in a syndicate!  

That's if you are set on a tb racing. You could maybe try the same thing with horses being bred for dressage or eventing.


I have always wanted to be involved with breeding a really nice foal and one day I will ( for eventing). Sadly when I originally did my homework the sums and reality did not add up. I have reset my hopes but now have to wait till I am im the financial position to do it.


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## angrovestud (27 November 2011)

Having bred my racehorse and owned his sire and dam he will be tested in training this spring I have found it to be the thrill of a life time, from tearing his coat open when he was born to researching his sires and dams pedigree- I have seen him on the gallops, and I have created our own syndicate our horse is a coloured racehorse he will be going in to national hunt training we know he has stamina and can keep up with fast 8 furlong sprinters but not quiet fast enough  for the flat he can jump so we are going for it!
Hell you only live once and nothing is ever achieved by not trying.

My advise to you is find the right mare the doncaster  sales for mare and foal sales are on soon racing post is a very useful site if you look up bloodstock you will be able to see which sales are on and see the catalogue do your research you want to be buying the dam of a winner if you can if you get chance buyer the dam of two or three its all about dams far more then most peope realise. if you want any further help please pm me as we have done this from scratch 
its not always bank breaking


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## Clodagh (27 November 2011)

My Grandpa, the ultimate hobby breeder, owned two mares, one at a time. He bred about 8 foals and one won at the Goodwood festival, so it can be done. He also ended up with 7 rubbish ones that he gave away, I must add.


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## JanetGeorge (27 November 2011)

GMT said:



			Costs
My very initial thoughts on costs are that for the first year the costs would be around:
One year livery for the mare £4000
Stud Fee £2000
Foaling £200
Cost of purchasing a mare £3000
Vets fees £1000
Total £10.2K
Any views on these numbers would be greatly appreciated.
		
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One year's livery probably won't get you as far as foaling - unless you buy her at JUST the right time and she looks at the stallion once and gets pregnant!  Then costs treble in the second year!

Your mare cost is ridiculously low - any TB mare for sale at that price has very little going for her as a racing brood mare - even in this climate.

If you're serious, the best place to RESEARCH (not buy!) is next week -at the Tattersalls Dec mare sale - see http://docs.tattersalls.com/cat/december/2011decmares.pdf

See what the mares who are winners and dams of winners go for.

There will be a LOT of horses going cheap - or being taken home - but they will be cheap for a reason.  To see the range in likely prices, see last year's prices from the same sale - http://www.tattersalls.com/decmares-sale-top10s.php   Yes, there were a few sold at your budget price - and below - but there'll be a reason they were so cheap!

Stud fee is also low.  For a very good jumping sire, expect to pay double that!  The stud fee is a relatively small part of the costs of producing a foal - so you might as well use a GOOD one!

Your vet's fees and foaling cost are also low.  If a mare is a bit tricky, you could easily spend £1,000 just getting her in foal - and then you have routine stuff like CEM/EVA/Strangles swabs/blood tests, EHV vaccination as well as anything that goes wrong before foaling - and if something goes wrong AT foaling you could easily run up another thousand (or 3!)


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## sam4321 (27 November 2011)

The above poster has given you some good advice. 

We struggled for 10 years, before realising we were doing it the wrong way. But, we knew a lot about racing/breeding/pedigrees before we lept in. But..... everything that could go wrong, did go wrong!! Starting with 2 mares, one died (after 2k operation), the other was downright dangerous, almost killed my mum, had only 3 foals in 10 years, one had to be put to sleep, one sold for 800 (stud fee was 3k) the other we raced (10k in racing fees and she didnt win) we then had the dangerous mare put to sleep after she got worse and worse. We had our own land, i'd hate to think what it would have cost otherwise!!!

3 years later, we are pooling money to buy one good  (and sane!) mare, with a very decent pedigree, putting her in foal to decent stallions (i would say you want the mares value to be 3-5 times the stud fee of the stallion you are sending her to). So for your £2000 stud fee, you really want to spend 6-10k on the mare. 

I am looking at it as an investment, but..... only because i have done a LOT of research on each and every mare that i will be looking at (about 8 mares out of 1000 or so in the sale). And mum has been researching racing/pedigrees her whole life. 

my advice would be, 
1 research
2 go to the sales (yearling sales, foal sales, mare sales, (all of them!) go the the stallion parades)
3 go home and do some more research.....

as soon as you think you know enough to dive in, stop and do some more research!........


what will you do with the foal?

if you send it to the sales, it will be about £1500 for sale prep and entry fees,  and if it makes 800 then you have lost that 10k you started out with OR you can have it trained which will set you back 1k per month minimum + vets bills + travelling expenses etc etc. 

It is a tough industry, there is a reason why the best players stay at the top and the smaller operations struggle and often go out of business, and that reason would be.............................................. Money! 

(and lack of research!)


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## druid (28 November 2011)

Some vague figures for this year from a mare syndicate I have an interest in:

Mare bought at Sales in November 13,000 (i/f) plus 780 in commission and 500 in agent's fees

Livery per year  12,000+ for mare, plus a separate keep fee for the foal from September when weaned adding several thousand to the bill! 

Vet repro package 850 (drugs not included came to another 150 or so)

Foaling down 800

Stud fee 8,500 (and that's with a discount/deal) plus a walk-in fee of 250

Farriery for the year about 500 (trims only, front shoes whack that up)

Misc. vet fees (vaccinations for m & f, bloods and micro chipping for foaletc.) - 500

That's not counting the add-ons....when the staff bandaging a leg can cost 5-10 a pop etc. it all starts to add up.


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## GMT (28 November 2011)

Just thinking out loud now, the sort of money involved in my aim of breeding from decent lines and hopefully achieving some sort of success is a high % of livery costs due to not having any facilities myself. I was wondering if it would be a possibility to find someone who does have the facilities in my local area(North-East) and becoming partners in the sense that I would purchase a nice mare and pay for all the stud fees on the basis that general livery and day to day care would be covered by my partner.

How do you find a really enthusistic, nice, trustworthy and decent person with facilities who would be interested in this type of venture, if anyone knows of such a person please let me know !

My thoughts were that with this type of overhead taken care of the amount of money available to invest in the quality of the mare purchased and the strength of the sire would be significant.

So if you are nice and interested please get in touch ! Ideally live with 25 miles of Newcastle Upon Tyne.

Rgds GMT


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## GMT (28 November 2011)

Thanks Sam & Janet, great advice I know I have a lot to learn, but ignorance is bliss and topped up with some unrealistic expectations and over/enthusiasm, im probably a lost cause, one life and all that !

But seriously I will take on board your advice and its much appreciatted, allready I have altered my strategy a little which is reflected a little in my last post on this thread, maybe I need a partner who has facilities !

Learning and listening all the time though, thanks again for you help.

RGDS GMT


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## Kaylum (28 November 2011)

Mare you can get from racing yards or bloodstock sales.  There are thousands that brake down during racing and dont even make it to the sales as they are shot but can make good brood mares but they have broken down for a reason.   Many of them have winnings under their belts. 

Livery, seriously you can put your TB on grass livery for most of the year.  

Its the stud livery fee you initially and finally need.  

My friends breed and sales prep themselves.  If you know about young stock and how to handle get them leading out and the youngsters are long reined around a field everyday a couple of months before the sales.  They are very well bred but they get hardly anything for them and I think they are considering giving up and breeding heavy horses. 

You can throw as much money at it as you want but if you want to be involved then you can do as much yourself as you want.


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## GMT (28 November 2011)

Thanks Kaylum, I suspected as much that many fantasticly bred horses will not make to the racetrack for various reasons which would not effect there broodmare capabilities other than the fact that they are unproven !

Is it relistic to send a standard letter to every decent trainer and ask if they have anything that needs a good home ?

Any views appreciated

I did send a letter to Mark Johnstones stable in Middleham a few years ago asking if they had any horses retiring for my daughter, I got a lovely reply from his wife and she actually rang me as she was boarding a helicopter to go to the races in Ireland one Saturday, she was so helpful for an obviously wealthy and busy lady, she was very keen on finding good homes for the horses who hadnt made it, it didnt work out unfortunately as at the time my daughter wasnt good enough a rider for a horse fresh out of a racing stables. Just thought I would add this as its always stuck in my head how decent Mrs Johnstone was and how much she cared about her horses.


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## wench (28 November 2011)

£2k for stud fee - thats a little underestimated, unless you use real rubbish.


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## GMT (28 November 2011)

Thanks Wench that didnt really help too much though!


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## wench (28 November 2011)

Unfortunatly laws of breeding rubbish + rubbish = rubbish

On a plus point a mare with good breeding but useless race record should be cheap to buy.


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## Kaylum (28 November 2011)

Go to doncaster bloodstock sales and have a look round but dont go with a view to buy just look and get the feel of the place, also we used to do TB stallion parades their many many years ago, dont know if they do them anymore but well worth a look if they do.


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## sallyf (28 November 2011)

GMT said:



			Thanks Kaylum, I suspected as much that many fantasticly bred horses will not make to the racetrack for various reasons which would not effect there broodmare capabilities other than the fact that they are unproven !

Is it relistic to send a standard letter to every decent trainer and ask if they have anything that needs a good home ?

Any views appreciated

I did send a letter to Mark Johnstones stable in Middleham a few years ago asking if they had any horses retiring for my daughter, I got a lovely reply from his wife and she actually rang me as she was boarding a helicopter to go to the races in Ireland one Saturday, she was so helpful for an obviously wealthy and busy lady, she was very keen on finding good homes for the horses who hadnt made it, it didnt work out unfortunately as at the time my daughter wasnt good enough a rider for a horse fresh out of a racing stables. Just thought I would add this as its always stuck in my head how decent Mrs Johnstone was and how much she cared about her horses.
		
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Ive got a mare that might suit you that i'm looking to rehome for free as long as it is the right home and she wont be passed on.
Shes won a couple of races and produced a winner over hurdles.
She has unfortunately been dumped on me and when i spoke to the owner the other day they said just pts they dont want her back.
Shes 13 and reproductively sound so just trying to rehome her somewhere suitable as dont think it is right to pts .
She had a yearling go through Tattersalls last week by a very unfashionable stallion for 6k so she must throw good looking stock as most have sold well.
She ran 20 times so a sound mare .


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## Minxie (28 November 2011)

Oh I can completely understand why you'd want to do what your planning - but as a few others have said I think its a huge risk.  I promise I'm not being negative just cautious. 

The country is awash with unwanted stock just now with some of the Thoroughbred studs in ireland not even allowing the mares to foal before sending them to the abattoir as unfortunately (for some) the bottom has fallen out of the market a bit.  

However it could mean a good opportunity to pick up a quality mare but think your looking at having to spend a fair bit more than £2k.  Re the stallion again if your wanting something with good winning form again you'll have to stump up more than your planning.

If part of this is for your daughter to gain experience (and if she couldn't get work at a stud) I'd have thought of looking at producing a good quality sports horse instead.  Get a niceish mare around your budget and be able to get a really nice stallion too which has lots of prodgeny on the ground to let you assess what ability he is likely to pass onto your foal.


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## seabsicuit2 (28 November 2011)

I have to strongly disagree with the fact that you need £££ for a top mare and £££ for the best stallion- prices are all set on fashion and trends!! You can buy a beautiful mare with impeccable breeding and damline full of black type for £1500 ish. Also use an out of fashion stallion or an up and coming stallion and the stud fee is as little as £1k. You don't have to spend spend spend just to follow what everyone else is doing and what's in fashion! 

Just because something is not expensive and the stallion is not expensive does not mean that it can't be a good horse, especially if you are wanting to produce a NH horse.
I could give you so many examples but good luck! 

& whoever it was that was going to get a horse from Johnstons- don't touch, trainers don't buy them because they don't train on well, they are basically knackered when they leave his yard..


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## stolensilver (28 November 2011)

I've always dreamed of breeding a NH horse (although I probably never will). A stallion who has great statistics is Midnight Legend. His stud fee is 4K though. 

http://pitchallstud.co.uk/ml.html

There are a couple of mares by Mtoto at the sales Janet George linked to. I LOVE Mtoto. He also happens to be the sire of Presenting, (whose stud fee is a whole lot more than 4K!) sire of Gold Cup winners Denman and War of Attrition and Grand National winner Ballabriggs amongst countless other top quality NH horses.


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## Miss L Toe (29 November 2011)

Go to the sales if you want to buy a broodmare, but to be honest there are too many TB's at the moment, far better to buy a yearling and go from there.


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## Miss L Toe (29 November 2011)

seabsicuit2 said:



			I

& whoever it was that was going to get a horse from Johnstons- don't touch, trainers don't buy them because they don't train on well, they are basically knackered when they leave his yard..
		
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Deirdre Johnstone was being asked about horses who were not in training any more, obviously they don;t sell winners, they keep them.


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## Silent Knight (29 November 2011)

Minxie, is that a naked man riding that horse?


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## Miss L Toe (29 November 2011)

Clodagh said:



			My Grandpa, the ultimate hobby breeder, owned two mares, one at a time. He bred about 8 foals and one won at the Goodwood festival, so it can be done. He also ended up with 7 rubbish ones that he gave away, I must add.
		
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^^^^This is the more likely scenario. even  knowledgeable owners steeped in tradition of racing struggle to breed from good mares.
Only one in thee make it to the racecourse, of course you can breed a slow horse and race it, but really, that is not a great spectacle.
Your daughter will not learn much about breeding as every time there is a problem you will have to pay a professional  to sort it out.
There are courses with work experience which will be more intense and beneficial.
#


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## Thistle (29 November 2011)

GMT, take Sallyf's offer seriously, she knows what she is on about!


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## vicijp (29 November 2011)

An owner of mine succesfully bred a winner from his first foal, as an accountant he worked out it took £10k to get it to a broken 3yo cantering and ready to go into training. The horse was in training all winter and won first time out in the spring as a 4yo - this cost £15k.

The start up costs were - 
Purchase of mare - £6k (this mare was still in training, but as a retired racehorse she would have been £3k max, no pedigree but won several OR 120ish).This cost not included as he raced her before he bred from her.
Stallion - £1k (below advertised fee, was already proven, and became quite fashoinable over the next couple of years, only then to die!).
Vets fees at stud - £250. This is a standard all in cost at most studs.
The rest of that 10k was made up by my fees(cheap compared to most), and standard vets fees such as tet/flu/teeth.

The mare is now 16 and is probably worth nothing - you will find others like her about.
The foal in question went to the sales after his win and had a genuine bid at £50k.

When looking at pedigrees anything with winners through the first 2 generations are worth a look, make sure the genes are filtering down to the generation you are looking to produce. All pedigrees have to start somewhere. Black type is nice, but remember in the NH market you have 4yrs over which the page is going to change - find out where the youngstock from the family is in training before you buy the mare.
There are lots of reasonably priced NH stallions around, you do not have to spend load to be fashoinable - fashoins will change before the foal gets to the track anyway.


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## Sportznight (29 November 2011)

MrsD123 said:



			Deirdre Johnstone was being asked about horses who were not in training any more, obviously they don;t sell winners, they keep them.
		
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Not true!  A racehorse is usually always for sale for the right money.  If winners were never sold, then how do you explain the top lots yesterday at Tatts - all were HITS or HOTS!

WRT what was said about getting anything from Mark Johnston - if it's run a lot and won with him, it's a tough cookie and worth it as a breeding prospect, I wouldn't have one to race on with or turn into a riding horse though.....


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## Minxie (29 November 2011)

Ringworm the Red Nosed Reindeer said:



			Minxie, is that a naked man riding that horse?

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Yup. 

And that naked man is RUSSELL CROWE


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## GMT (29 November 2011)

Just to say thanks to everyone for all the support and input on my plans. So many decent people out there you just sometimes forget.

Had a few really nice PMs from people and I am starting to change direction a little in that I am thinking finding someone who has the right facilities to keep a mare and see it at least through to foaling is the way forward. So I am thinking if I could find someone ideally in the North-East and have an arrangement where they look after the horse and I do the investing, this would save a lot of money to spend on a better sire and mare, although this way you find yourself losing full ownership its probably the sensible way forward. How do you find a really nice person who is interested and lives locally, well hopefully this thread leads to that ! Actually one very nice lady has been in touch through the PMs and sounds perfect, knowledgeable, enthusiastic, even has a beatifully bred Mare available, along with all the facilities, unfortunately she lives a bit of a hike away, as I explained to her I will have to have a look and see if there is anything else available locally before I come back to her. So thats where I am now please keep posting I am learning and enjoying learning all the time. Thanks again.

Rgds GMT


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## GMT (29 November 2011)

I forgot to ask, when selecting an ideal sire for your mare, whats the typicall process ? I would have thought such a complex formulative type process would be something ran on a software programme ? If so is this sort of service free ? Is it on the internet, how much does this service cost if there is a charge, Who does this ? Any pointers please.

Tks GMT


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## Dizzle (29 November 2011)

angrovestud said:



			our horse is a coloured racehorse
		
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Hi, sorry to hijack but how do you get a coloured racehorse? I thought TB's were any solid colour?


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## Faithkat (29 November 2011)

Tattersalls December Mare Sale is on at the moment.  I was sent this press release last night - have a look at the prices  . . . . 
http://campaign.r20.constantcontact...BJeR-xISA0rqClPAGIJ02deaQj5fhgxNdcgtdQKM_JjGn


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## Alec Swan (29 November 2011)

GMT said:



			I forgot to ask, when selecting an ideal sire for your mare, whats the typicall process ? I would have thought such a complex formulative type process would be something ran on a software programme ? If so is this sort of service free ? Is it on the internet, how much does this service cost if there is a charge, Who does this ? Any pointers please.

Tks GMT
		
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I posted the answer,  on this,  or your other thread,  I'm not sure! 

Go into Weatherby's website.  I can't remember how I did it,  but you type in your mares breeding (sire and dam),  you pay your 50 bob,  or thereabouts,  and up will come the results of what *others* have done.  Many of these others will be highly experienced,  and from them you may learn.  There's a *BUT* attached to it,  and it's a huge but.......

The stallion who sired your mare,  may well be of little consequence.  It's the *Black Type*,  within your mare's pedigree which matters,  and just how many race winning progeny have her first,  second and third dam produced.

There are breeding agents who will offer advice,  but the problem is that they may well represent a stallion,  and attempt to head you,  in that direction!  It's a highly complex business,  and as you will gather from the sound advice offered so far,  you will,  at best,  lessen the chances of costly failure,  and that's all that you'll manage!!

Good luck!!

A.


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## Sportznight (29 November 2011)

GMT said:



			I forgot to ask, when selecting an ideal sire for your mare, whats the typicall process ? I would have thought such a complex formulative type process would be something ran on a software programme ? If so is this sort of service free ? Is it on the internet, how much does this service cost if there is a charge, Who does this ? Any pointers please.

Tks GMT
		
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Some studs use Goldmine and enicks.  Often they are available on their websites.  For example, Pour Moi, the winner of this year's Epsom Derby, will be standing his first season at stud in 2012 at Coolmore in Ireland. If you click on this link http://www.coolmore.com/stallions-view.php?list=ireland&id=127 you will see under his conformation photo links to both of these.  If you follow them, and type in a mares name, they will show you what the cross looks like and should tell you how successful that nick has been.  What it can't and won't tell you though, is if it is a good physical and temperamental match.


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## angrovestud (29 November 2011)

Dizzle said:



			Hi, sorry to hijack but how do you get a coloured racehorse? I thought TB's were any solid colour?[/QUOTE

A quick anwser I bred him hes 7/8ths Tb we have introduced the Tobiano gene to the TB along with a good bone, & feet lovely temprement and an easy to train attitude our broodmares have all come to us out of training and their owners wanted them to have good homes  they did not want them to go to the sale's we have two from one owner who is a tyre magnet he does not like his horses sold on as they carry his name he also only races them as flat horses and mainly two years olds so they are re homed at 4 
we are breeding for National hunt
		
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## kit279 (29 November 2011)

I also advise caution.  Breeding can be a seriously expensive business.  I live next door to a stud in Newmarket and I've had a lot of fun over the last year seeing the horses foal and seeing them grow up.  I absolutely LOVE the foals and I can well believe that the process of breeding and training and maybe even winning is a buzz that can't be matched.

However. 

Breeding a truly successful racehorse is often a completely freak event.  I've watched the stud next door put Grade 1 winning mares (who were expensive) to stallions with very expensive fees and get very average foals.  That may be a risk that you are willing to take.  I would strongly strongly encourage you to spend your money on a foal rather than a mare and a stallion.  You buy what you want and you get what you breed.

By all means, get involved with a local stud.  Go to the birth.  Follow the foals from then on.  But pick a foal that looks like the real deal - otherwise you are gambling the 10K you budget for from day 1.

If you'd rather do it your way, then by all means, give it a go.  But make sure that you are 100% prepared to kiss the money goodbye with no returns whatsoever.  You may lose the mare and the foal (I've seen it happen sadly) and be left with nothing and a stonking vet bill to comfort you.  Racing money is silly money and you've got to be prepared to burn it basically, you can't see it as an investment of any kind.  I would also encourage both you and your daughter to spend a good week on a stud farm during foaling season to see what it really involves and how much experience racing breeders have and need.


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## Miss L Toe (29 November 2011)

kit279 said:



			I also advise caution.  Breeding can be a seriously expensive business.  I live next door to a stud in Newmarket and I've had a lot of fun over the last year seeing the horses foal and seeing them grow up.  I absolutely LOVE the foals and I can well believe that the process of breeding and training and maybe even winning is a buzz that can't be matched.

However. 

Breeding a truly successful racehorse is often a completely freak event.  I've watched the stud next door put Grade 1 winning mares (who were expensive) to stallions with very expensive fees and get very average foals.  That may be a risk that you are willing to take.  I would strongly strongly encourage you to spend your money on a foal rather than a mare and a stallion.  You buy what you want and you get what you breed.

By all means, get involved with a local stud.  Go to the birth.  Follow the foals from then on.  But pick a foal that looks like the real deal - otherwise you are gambling the 10K you budget for from day 1.

If you'd rather do it your way, then by all means, give it a go.  But make sure that you are 100% prepared to kiss the money goodbye with no returns whatsoever.  You may lose the mare and the foal (I've seen it happen sadly) and be left with nothing and a stonking vet bill to comfort you.  Racing money is silly money and you've got to be prepared to burn it basically, you can't see it as an investment of any kind.  I would also encourage both you and your daughter to spend a good week on a stud farm during foaling season to see what it really involves and how much experience racing breeders have and need.
		
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Sensible advice which will not be taken, unfortunately.


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## GMT (29 November 2011)

A little presumptious Mrs D surely !

I appreciatte and consider every well meant post on here. Going ahead and failing would not be because I havent taken onboard well meant advice but because of a passion for the sport and the acceptance that things might well go wrong not absorbing that passion.

If you dont have a dream etc etc !


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## Miss L Toe (29 November 2011)

Fine to have a dream etc, but first you need to have some experience. We are talking about flesh and blood.
To be frank,you don't know anything [enough] about horses or the TB industry.
Yesterday, I had some lady come to ride my horse, she was struggling to get on and to dismount, she was so lacking in knowledge,  she had no idea she could not ride.
You obviously know how to drive a car, do you think they would let you loose at Monacco F1?


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## GMT (29 November 2011)

Cmon MrsD be fair.

We have two horses at present, one an ex-racehorse who through lots of money and care now lives a fantastic life, despite a vet standing over her shaking his head 3 years ago and saying she would have to be PTS if she didnt improve in an hour. Any horse I am responsible for will be looked after. You cant tar everyone with the same brush MrsD. 

Rgds GMT


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## JoBird (29 November 2011)

Hi GMT.  Hope you got my email .... and thanks for the nice words!


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## Miss L Toe (29 November 2011)

GMT said:



			Cmon MrsD be fair.

We have two horses at present, one an ex-racehorse who through lots of money and care now lives a fantastic life, despite a vet standing over her shaking his head 3 years ago and saying she would have to be PTS if she didnt improve in an hour. Any horse I am responsible for will be looked after. You cant tar everyone with the same brush MrsD. 

Rgds GMT
		
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I don't have any tar or any brush, if anyone asks for advice on how to breed a racehorse, I tell it as I see it. 
If you were in business you would not keep "lame ducks" you would get rid of them. you want a racehorse, therefore you want to win, not keep a field full of "write offs"
There is nothing to stop you breeding horses, just don't ask for advice on how to breed a racehorse, ie an animal whose career is to win on the track.
As long as you can afford to fill your fields with nice well fed types, good luck.


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## GMT (29 November 2011)

MrsD

"lame ducks" "get rid", I thought we were talking about "flesh & blood"

Please !


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## Miss L Toe (29 November 2011)

GMT said:



			MrsD

"lame ducks" "get rid", I thought we were talking about "flesh & blood"

Please !
		
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Exactly, I am trying to bring you out of your dreamland into reality, breeders cannot fill their fields with the "losers", they have to fork out hard cash to bring on the "winner", so EVERY foal they breed to keep is  a liability, and will cost maybe  £15K, most people do not have that kind of cash when multiplied by ten.


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## Changes (29 November 2011)

Totally agree with Mrs D. 

Although my concerns aren't so much as you parting yourself from 10k, as to adding to the already saturated horse population which is resulting in the increasingly common situation in this thread -

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=499631

If you want a racehorse, buy one at the sales for 10k. 

If you want your daughter to see foals being born, send her to a local stud to watch. 

But please don't bring another slow racehorse into the world unless you are guaranteeing said foal a home for life.


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## GMT (29 November 2011)

At the risk of being seen as argumentative I have to respond:

Why would I be bringing "another" slow horse into the world ? Surely I have as much chance of having a fast one as most, and you wouldnt want to stop all breeding or we would all be out of a sport !

I am sure my daughter will end up seeing many foals being born in her career, but they wont be hers, I think its been established the joy of breeding your own offers many rewards, this being one of them.

I think I have mentioned that I have always looked after any animal under my responsibility.

Rgds Glenn


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## Miss L Toe (29 November 2011)

GMT said:



			Why would I be bringing "another" slow horse into the world ?
		
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I don't know why you want to do it, but you seem determined.


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## kit279 (29 November 2011)

GMT said:



			At the risk of being seen as argumentative I have to respond:

Why would I be bringing "another" slow horse into the world ? Surely I have as much chance of having a fast one as most
		
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I feel the need to stop you right there!  Realistically, this is not correct.  The reason that good broodmares and good stallions cost thousands and thousands of pounds is simply that you have a better chance of breeding a fast racehorse if the parents are fast.  Both genetically and temperamentally.

It is NOT enough to have speed.  Winning racehorses have more about them - they have to have the winning personality. 

Therefore, if you set out with a limited budget, you will realistically have to buy lesser quality mares and put them to lesser quality stallions.  I do understand that £10K is a lot of money but it is absolutely bargain basement in terms of what it will buy you in terms of stallion fees and calibre of broodmare - please don't be offended by this, it is the difference between buying a Ford Mondeo and a BMW Z4 and just the way of the world and racing particularly!

Don't be deceived when I say that breeding is a lottery.  It is a lottery in terms that even if you spent ££££££ on mare and stallion, you could still get a wonky foal that was conformationally so poor that it would never race or the foal might die.  But the lottery that drives racing is the myth that you can get something out of nothing - ie. take a poor mare and breed to a poor stallion and get a Shergar.

When that actually happens is so rare that they make Disney films about it eg. Seabiscuit!!!

If as you say, you are motivated to have the experience itself and do not care about the outcome (and please, as poster before me have said, you are prepared to give the foal a home for life), then by all means take the chance.  But you are following a well worn path - one that more experienced people cripple themselves financially and emotionally going through!


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## JoBird (29 November 2011)

Just want to butt in that many a horse with great potential hasnt shown its true ability as a) it needed more time to mature and was written off or b) it wasnt trained very well!  The training plays a HUGE part in the actual success of the horse, whatever you start with.  Horses are individuals and sometimes this gets overlooked in the training process with detrimental results.  Trainers get their monthly fee from the owner whatever happens and naturally favour and spend their time and effort on certain horses rather than others.


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## Miss L Toe (29 November 2011)

I used to work in racing, we sold our rejects at the sales for £5K, so when a lady told me her horse cost a lot [it was her daughter's dressage horse] I asked how much, she said £5K, well I kinda choked. It may have seemed a lot to her, but it was nothing to me, we bought most of our horses or about for £50K [National Hunt], untried in the UK.
Obviously, flat  horses are a good bit more.


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## Changes (29 November 2011)

GMT said:



			At the risk of being seen as argumentative I have to respond:

Why would I be bringing "another" slow horse into the world ? Surely I have as much chance of having a fast one as most, and you wouldnt want to stop all breeding or we would all be out of a sport !

I am sure my daughter will end up seeing many foals being born in her career, but they wont be hers, I think its been established the joy of breeding your own offers many rewards, this being one of them.

I think I have mentioned that I have always looked after any animal under my responsibility.

Rgds Glenn
		
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Hi Glenn, I've been involved off and on in racing for a long time, and I know several owner breeders. To a man they have stopped, because of the lack of return and the expenses of keeping a horse that may not be fast enough to race, nor have the temperament/soundness due to being on the track to be turned round into a viable proposition for an alternative future.

I understand your enthusiasm, it's shared by thousands of people. The sad reality is it's a rarity to breed a successful racehorse. 

What if you have a still born foal, or a deformed foal, what will you do with the mare? Will you breed her again?  

What if you have a cracking looking foal - will you breed her again because 'your' baby is gorgeous? And make no mistake, many many people fall into that trap. 

Then what do you do if they are all slow, or unable to stand up to training, or have temperaments which make them dificult to work with?

Do you know how much it is to have a horse in training with a decent trainer who will give your homebred baby a chance?

I absolutely understand your dream, but if you care about horses at all then you shouldn't do this with your self-confessed lack of knowledge. 

I'm sorry. I see so many of these horses end up at the botton end of the market. I don't for a minute think any of them were bred to go to slaughter abroad, or in the UK if they're lucky. There doesn't need to be any more. 

You're as likely to win the lottery as breed a champ racer in the way you are going about it. As I said, I don't care what you do with your money, but I do care that you might be bringing another unwanted and needless life into the world. 

This is not meant to be aggressive, and I'm sorry if it comes across like that. But please heed what I'm saying.


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## Miss L Toe (29 November 2011)

JoBird said:



			Trainers get their monthly fee from the owner whatever happens and naturally favour and spend their time and effort on certain horses rather than others.
		
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err ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, rubbish


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## kit279 (29 November 2011)

Changes said:



			Hi Glenn, I've been involved off and on in racing for a long time, and I know several owner breeders. To a man they have stopped, because of the lack of return and the expenses of keeping a horse that may not be fast enough to race, nor have the temperament/soundness due to being on the track to be turned round into a viable proposition for an alternative future.

I understand your enthusiasm, it's shared by thousands of people. The sad reality is it's a rarity to breed a successful racehorse. 

What if you have a still born foal, or a deformed foal, what will you do with the mare? Will you breed her again?  

What if you have a cracking looking foal - will you breed her again because 'your' baby is gorgeous? And make no mistake, many many people fall into that trap. 

Then what do you do if they are all slow, or unable to stand up to training, or have temperaments which make them dificult to work with?

Do you know how much it is to have a horse in training with a decent trainer who will give your homebred baby a chance?

I absolutely understand your dream, but if you care about horses at all then you shouldn't do this with your self-confessed lack of knowledge. 

I'm sorry. I see so many of these horses end up at the botton end of the market. I don't for a minute think any of them were bred to go to slaughter abroad, or in the UK if they're lucky. There doesn't need to be any more. 

You're as likely to win the lottery as breed a champ racer in the way you are going about it. As I said, I don't care what you do with your money, but I do care that you might be bringing another unwanted and needless life into the world. 

This is not meant to be aggressive, and I'm sorry if it comes across like that. But please heed what I'm saying. 

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I so very agree with all of the above.  There's a little horse in my field who the owner is going to ship out to Qatar to a very uncertain future because he thinks it is worth a lot as a racehorse (because HE BRED IT) when it may not be worth anything at all.

I'd feel quite differently about what you're proposing if you had your own land - that at least offers a little more security for the foal and mare.  But I know that livery costs can be and are crippling especially over years, training costs even more so (seriously a not-very-successful-trainer will charge you £40-50 per DAY!!!), and I've seen a lot of horses go  on to bad outcomes.  And I don't mean death, which is not the worst thing that can happen to a horse.


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## angrovestud (30 November 2011)

We have a horse in training and I can assure you there are good trainers that will do a very good ob for £25 -£30 per day both flat or national hunt. 
I started out without much knowledge I have quickly learnt a lot! and I would guess a lot more to Jo bird is right some trainers will be very selective to certain owners and horses she is not talking rubbish! I have used three trainers aand I can assure you they are all very different the ones you want to avoid are the gamberling yards they are not interested in anything but making money for themselves 
I think if you got £5K for your bad ones you were lucky we get offered free ones all the time! good ones as well and non starters I would not consider a broodmare that has come from a mare line that is unproven I would want to see as many winners and progeny that have won.


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## xspiralx (1 December 2011)

I don't necessarily think its a bad thing for the OP to try and breed a racehorse, if that's what they really want to do - provided they go into it with their eyes open to the likelihood that whatever they breed will not turn out to be successful, and that probably they will lose a lot of money along the way.

Yes its adding another horse into the flooded industry, but at least this is one that is guaranteed to be cared for and looked after responsibly rather than discarded at the sales like so many others.

What I would suggest to the OP is to look for a mare and stallion that have good conformation and good temperament as well as racing form or good breeding. Then if your foal isn't successful as a racehorse, there is a good chance it will be able to go on and have a successful career in another discipline.


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## katastrophykat (1 December 2011)

Hi! As an owner-breeder (but my one off was for a competition horse) I can see where you're coming from. I had a great mare who was injured at pasture. She had good confirmation, was quick (brain and feet!) and extremely competetive. I couldn't afford to replace her with a five year old ready to go, so sat down and priced up breeding my own against buying one. Costs (sensibly worked out) were more or less the same over five years to get my foal to maturity and break him in. So off we went. I used a nice eventing stallion, who was a bit more laid back than my mare, she took first time and we were off! 

Then at the first scan we found twins. £600 later, and one popped twin, and I waited with baited breath. When the time came, I slept at the yard for two weeks. If you want your daughter to see the fowling I suggest CCTV... My mare went in and out of first stage for bloody days- til I chucked her out in disgust (as I work full time and two hourly checks at a livery yard- even when I was sleeping in my wagon outside her box were taking their toll and I was heading towards being sacked...!) so she foaled outside, only that night the sheep went through the bottom slat of a fence, leaving a small gap through which the foal was delivered. I arrived at first light to find a foal being used as a football by the herd next door who were running him off. Mare then wouldn't feed him so we bottle fed for the first day- vet cost to come out, jab foal and milk mare and following checkups- £500 approx. Weaning was easy, I've shown the foal with success as a yearling and two year old, and he'll be out again next year as a three year old hunter. I adore him, he has a home for life with me and is a pleasure to be around. But that is because I've spent hours upon hours with him ensuring that he has manners, doing the groundwork, mouthing, longreining and taking him out and about whenever I can. It all sounds rather great, until I confess that I think he's far too quiet for what I originally wanted him for (eventing and jumping) and although he'll never be sold, he just doesn't have the sparkle that both of his parents do. Whether it will come out under saddle, I have no idea. If it does, great... All systems go, if it doesn't, I've bred a lovely happy hacker- but my hopes and dreams go with him as I'll never breed another one. Taking away the economics and what everyone has said about overbreeding (I can't comment at all on this as I bred one to replace one!) are you prepared for the disappointment that may come (may!!) if it's not what you want it to be? And is your daughter? Is there a contingency plan for it (showing/happy hacker/riding club) if it doesn't make the grade for racing- or are you going to look at it in a few years time and wonder what you were thinking... I do that occasionally when I look at Gunner, and he means everything to me!! You're welcome to come visit if you want practice btw- even my dead quiet two year old can be a pig to handle at times, I'm in Sunderland so not far from you at all. 

Sorry, I'm no use on breeding racehorses, just thought a different opinion might be of use!


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## katastrophykat (1 December 2011)

Oh- and as a two year old he's already cost most of our five year budget on day to day costs...!


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## magic104 (2 December 2011)

Reality is that in-foal mares are going for meat on a regular basis & if people where honest about it they would confirm that figs are up the last 2yrs.  Because of the posters circumstances I still believe she is better off either buying one of these mares or a foal rather then bring yet another into this climate.


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## amage (2 December 2011)

To be frank....you are being incredibly unrealistic! going out to buy a good well bred mare with decent confirmation, good results in her line etc will cost a few quid. Yes there are some out there for peanuts but you don't sound as if you have3 the experience or knowledge to pick them out. Secondly 2k for stud fee....forget it! TB stud fees are alot bigger than half bred stud fees...I have often noted the lower priced tbs breed more halfbreds anyway. You also need a proven sire and to know who to avoid. TB sires do not have to be approved....you could breed wind problems that will need operated on, leg trouble, soundness. 

You could pick up a nice 3 year old and get it in training for that 10k and see how you like the experience. The saying fools breed horses for wise men to buy rings very true. You could pick up something nice and get it into training for a nice return at selling if it was good enough. I know pointers in the UK don't seem to make the same money here though....our winning 4 year olds in Ireland can get massive money from UK trainers. I know breeding is what you want to do but lay the foundations correctly....meet with trainers, discuss current popular stallions, be obssessive at looking at mare lines, don't expect a computer programme to pick a sire for you!!!! You have alot of homework to do to make this work


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## sallyf (2 December 2011)

2k for a stud fee is realastic.
Coolmore stand multiple G1 winners in the NH sector for between 2 and 2.5 k
Yes there are some very expensive flat stallions about but even Haafd who is a G1 winner and flat sire is standing up in Yorshire next season for 2.5k 
5k is generally the top end for a NH sire and a majority are under 3k
The OP is looking to breed a jumping horse not a derby winner


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## amage (2 December 2011)

sallyf said:



			2k for a stud fee is realastic.
Coolmore stand multiple G1 winners in the NH sector for between 2 and 2.5 k
Yes there are some very expensive flat stallions about but even Haafd who is a G1 winner and flat sire is standing up in Yorshire next season for 2.5k 
5k is generally the top end for a NH sire and a majority are under 3k
The OP is looking to breed a jumping horse not a derby winner
		
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5K top end for a National Hunt sire???? Eh Flemensfirth, Presenting, Beneficial, Oscar, Milan, Catcher in the Rye, King's Theatre....sorry but for a proven sire at 2K budget for stud fee you are very limited and there is far more than just Coolmore in the breeding market!


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## tristar (2 December 2011)

hope you don't me saying,but, one of the biggest probs with your plan to me  is the fact that you seem as if you will be dependent on other people to do the majority of the rearing, training and caring, it sounds like most of it will be done when you are not around, to control what is happening to your youngster,  and question decisions.

if you really believe in your project i think to succeed you need put in 100 per cent of your own efforts, one to one attention and management could pay dividends.

do you feel you have that rare gift, a good eye for a horse, and the ability to 'marry' two horses and breed something better than the parents?


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## sallyf (2 December 2011)

amage said:



			5K top end for a National Hunt sire???? Eh Flemensfirth, Presenting, Beneficial, Oscar, Milan, Catcher in the Rye, King's Theatre....sorry but for a proven sire at 2K budget for stud fee you are very limited and there is far more than just Coolmore in the breeding market!
		
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Both Milan and Oscar are both 5000 euros which equates to 4,295.50 pounds
Catcher in the rye when he last stud in Ireland was 4000 euros 3,436.40pounds
Flemensfirth equates to about £8500
Presenting and Kings theatre would be considerably more but then again i doubt they would be available to anything other than the very top mares so you could count them out anyway.
There are many very good stallions in this country such as Midnight legend ,Tobougg ,Black Sam Bellamy etc etc that are all £4000 or under .
Kayf Tara who has just sired the first 2 home in the Hennesey is 5K.
And lets face it if you have a nice mare that has won a race or 2 or it a bit later in the year you wouldnt pay the advertised fee anyway so i say again there really is no need in my opinion (and it is that my opinion) to spend anymore than 2K to get a very good stallion.
I have my eye on a mutiple group 1 winning stallion first season sire for a mare here at the moment who is advertised at 3k .
She has won a couple of races so i wouldnt be expecting to pay more than 2k for the stud fee.


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## druid (3 December 2011)

sallyf said:



			Yes there are some very expensive flat stallions about but even Haafd who is a G1 winner and flat sire is standing up in Yorshire next season for 2.5k
		
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Possibly because the vast majority of flat breeder's outside of, oh say Turkey and India wouldn't touch Haafhd with a barge pole? He's had less than 1% black type winners to runners to date (His sole G1 winner is over fences, he has one G2 and one G3 winner on the flat....for 4 crops of racing age that's pretty poor). His yearling sales results this season were pretty dismal too. Just the fact he's being moved by Shadwell out to Breechwood Grange says his record isn't impressing them.


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## Fools Motto (3 December 2011)

I'd like to see this outcome of this thread in a few years time!
Breeding is expensive, no doubt about that. If you have the finances that is one thing, you also need luck, time, a helping hand, luck, more money and much more luck!!


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## druid (3 December 2011)

Christmas Crackers said:



			Breeding is expensive, no doubt about that. If you have the finances that is one thing, you also need luck, time, a helping hand, luck, more money and much more luck!!
		
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Indeed. Breeding thoroughbreds is something best done with someone else's money!


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## sallyf (3 December 2011)

druid said:



			Possibly because the vast majority of flat breeder's outside of, oh say Turkey and India wouldn't touch Haafhd with a barge pole? He's had less than 1% black type winners to runners to date (His sole G1 winner is over fences, he has one G2 and one G3 winner on the flat....for 4 crops of racing age that's pretty poor). His yearling sales results this season were pretty dismal too. Just the fact he's being moved by Shadwell out to Breechwood Grange says his record isn't impressing them.
		
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Totally agree Araafa is a another with the same problem .
But then again if Haafhd has sired a G1 winner over fences from 4 crops it does make him a reasonably priced possible NH sire.
Not many NH sires would manage that from there first 4 crops.
At the end of the day it is a total lottery out there anyway although the fact they have moved Haafhd to Beechwood Grange and not shipped hime off to Turkey and India like Darley and Coolmore do with there failures means they obviously still think he has something to offer.


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## Toast (3 December 2011)

*shakes head* why on earth would you want to bring another tb foal into an already massively overpopulated industry. Especially since it is clear you have little experience. What are you going to do if you breed a crap foal? keep trying whilst filling a field full of crap foals? Breeding a winner really is a lottery. Open your eyes. Sorry to be blunt but people like you are whats wrong with this industry.


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## brighteyes (3 December 2011)

GMT said:



			At the risk of being seen as argumentative I have to respond:

Why would I be bringing "another" slow horse into the world ? Surely I have as much chance of having a fast one as most, and you wouldnt want to stop all breeding or we would all be out of a sport !

I am sure my daughter will end up seeing many foals being born in her career, but they wont be hers, I think its been established the joy of breeding your own offers many rewards, this being one of them.

I think I have mentioned that I have always looked after any animal under my responsibility.

Rgds Glenn
		
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Just as long you absolutely do - right the way through, til every equine life YOU are responsible for ends, then that's fine. Carry on.


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## Spring Feather (3 December 2011)

GMT said:



			What I want out of this venture
The experience of breeding a beautiful athletic animal. To go through the process of breeding so as to benefit my daughters career. And a little bit is so I can recieve the Gold Cup at cheltenham !
		
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Breed a sportshorse then.  Something useful, so that when it doesn't win that Gold Cup or the Olympic Gold or the Badminton Trophy, then someone, somewhere, will still have a use for it.  You still get the experience of breeding a beautiful athletic animal, the breeding process will still give your daughter benefits for her career and the animal will have more chance of living a decent life beyond the age of 6!


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## sallyf (3 December 2011)

Spring Feather said:



			Breed a sportshorse then.  Something useful, so that when it doesn't win that Gold Cup or the Olympic Gold or the Badminton Trophy, then someone, somewhere, will still have a use for it.  You still get the experience of breeding a beautiful athletic animal, the breeding process will still give your daughter benefits for her career and the animal will have more chance of living a decent life beyond the age of 6!
		
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Im going to be controversial here.
Just because this possible foal is being bred with National hunt racing in mind why does it preclude it from doing anything else if it isnt fast enough.
I would say that if it wasnt fast enough as long as the foal is bred with temperament in mind there is absolutely no reason why the horse wouldnt make a high class event horse or even show horse.
The way everyone is speaking you would think that racehorses were the only thing bred without any consideration.
Well get real there is a glut of extremely badly bred sport horses and natives adding to the list of over production n this country.
It isnt only the TB industry ,who actually have cut there numbers by 35% in the last 5 years.


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## Miss L Toe (3 December 2011)

sallyf said:



			Im going to be controversial here.
Just because this possible foal is being bred with National hunt racing in mind why does it preclude it from doing anything else if it isnt fast enough.
I would say that if it wasnt fast enough as long as the foal is bred with temperament in mind there is absolutely no reason why the horse wouldnt make a high class event horse or even show horse.
The way everyone is speaking you would think that racehorses were the only thing bred without any consideration.
Well get real there is a glut of extremely badly bred sport horses and natives adding to the list of over production n this country.
It isnt only the TB industry ,who actually have cut there numbers by 35% in the last 5 years.
		
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Yes fine, if OP wants to breed another unwanted TB for racing, and after spending £50K, it turns out to be a slow racehorse, then maybe it can do something else, eeks! What a clever breeding program, personally I like pure TBs for one day eventing, but I would want to start them off at age four or five, not buy something at 7 year old which has not been schooled for the job, and has already proved to be pretty useless.!
I just don't think the OP has £50K to lose on the flip of a coin.
a few NH horses would make good Eventers, but not many.


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## Spring Feather (3 December 2011)

sallyf said:



			Im going to be controversial here.
Just because this possible foal is being bred with National hunt racing in mind why does it preclude it from doing anything else if it isnt fast enough.
I would say that if it wasnt fast enough as long as the foal is bred with temperament in mind there is absolutely no reason why the horse wouldnt make a high class event horse or even show horse.
The way everyone is speaking you would think that racehorses were the only thing bred without any consideration.
Well get real there is a glut of extremely badly bred sport horses and natives adding to the list of over production n this country.
It isnt only the TB industry ,who actually have cut there numbers by 35% in the last 5 years.
		
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For me the biggest problem I can see is that the OPs horse, when it doesn't make it in racing, will become an "ex-racer".  Unfortunately there is a lot of negativity towards ex-racers, hence they tend to sell for peanuts initially.  Someone with experience and time can develop the horse to being a useful sort who could absolutely be super as a competition horse but sadly they're often not given this chance.  I do often think that the low purchasing price of the horse when it comes out of racing hinders it.  When people are paying just a few hundred pounds for an animal I think it can be difficult for that horse to raise it's value.  When people are paying 6k or 7k these horses don't appear to be quite as dispensible as the ones selling for 400 or 500 quid because people have so much more tied up in the horse.  Obviously I'm stereotyping, as you have, but I think when a horse starts with a high value once in the private market, the depreciation is far more gradual.  There are too many unscrupulous buyers at the bottom end of any market and the risks for low priced horses are greater than those commanding much higher prices.


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## Sportznight (3 December 2011)

sallyf said:



			Im going to be controversial here.
Just because this possible foal is being bred with National hunt racing in mind why does it preclude it from doing anything else if it isnt fast enough.
I would say that if it wasnt fast enough as long as the foal is bred with temperament in mind there is absolutely no reason why the horse wouldnt make a high class event horse or even show horse.
The way everyone is speaking you would think that racehorses were the only thing bred without any consideration.
Well get real there is a glut of extremely badly bred sport horses and natives adding to the list of over production n this country.
It isnt only the TB industry ,who actually have cut there numbers by 35% in the last 5 years.
		
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Couldn't have said that better myself!  Spot on!


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## sallyf (3 December 2011)

Spring Feather said:



			For me the biggest problem I can see is that the OPs horse, when it doesn't make it in racing, will become an "ex-racer".  Unfortunately there is a lot of negativity towards ex-racers, hence they tend to sell for peanuts initially.  Someone with experience and time can develop the horse to being a useful sort who could absolutely be super as a competition horse but sadly they're often not given this chance.  I do often think that the low purchasing price of the horse when it comes out of racing hinders it.  When people are paying just a few hundred pounds for an animal I think it can be difficult for that horse to raise it's value.  When people are paying 6k or 7k these horses don't appear to be quite as dispensible as the ones selling for 400 or 500 quid because people have so much more tied up in the horse.  Obviously I'm stereotyping, as you have, but I think when a horse starts with a high value once in the private market, the depreciation is far more gradual.  There are too many unscrupulous buyers at the bottom end of any market and the risks for low priced horses are greater than those commanding much higher prices.
		
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But this is relevent in any breeding ,take a look at foal ads at the moment there are many many foals and youngsters for sale for peanuts at the moment most the product of covering poor quality mares with either too good a stallion for the mares ability or the most popular at the moment covering with a coloured stallion of some description thinking that if its coloured or unusual it will sell.
At least the original poster isnt breeding to try and make a quick buck she is trying to breed something to race herself and will take responsibility for its future which it more than i can say for a whole heap of people breeding these days.
Sorry but you only have to read alot of the other posts on this board and to me the OP has thought it through better than most.


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## sister duke (3 December 2011)

dont do it!!!!! the poor things are way waaaaay overbred already, the reason being you can get the best stallion and the best mare you can find but it doesnt guarantee you will breed a champ, or even anything considered half decent in the race world. thats why so many are thrown on the scrap heap every year, in their thousands. even foals.

 its well known that its all a lottery and a bit of a mystery and as said before no one can breed that "X factor" into a foal. theyve either got it or they havent.

i know this has all been said before in other posts. why not save an ex racehorse instead? far more ethical to give one of these lovely horses a good home and retrain them, and give them the chance of a longer life rather than a bullet. sorry its not what you want to hear but and the last thing the race industry needs is more breeders.


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## magic104 (3 December 2011)

sallyf said:



			The way everyone is speaking you would think that racehorses were the only thing bred without any consideration.
Well get real there is a glut of extremely badly bred sport horses and natives adding to the list of over production n this country.
It isnt only the TB industry ,who actually have cut there numbers by 35% in the last 5 years.
		
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I think the difference is the sheer volume the racing industry produces, even with that 35% cut.  Sadly Sally its a fact there are more TB in-foal mares going for meat then there are sporthorse mares or natives.  And lets be honest it is a bigger gamble & with the training involved you may end up with a TB who is not upto the job & has also picked up some stable vice.  Again a higher number of TB's from racing background develope stable vices, ulcers then those bred for sport.  I am not saying that sporthorses dont go onto develope the vices, but generally not until they are in work & being stabled for longer.  And yes plenty of ex racers have gone onto make excellent riding, sports & show horses.  Also I think some of us are concerned that if the experts struggle how on earth is this poster going to buck the trend?


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## Luke7 (3 December 2011)

The only people to blame are the stud farms.

They control the population of the throughbred industry not the prospective breeder/owner.

Go easy on the threadstarter.


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## Alec Swan (3 December 2011)

Luke7 said:



			The only people to blame are the stud farms.

......./QUOTE]

If we use the word "Blame",  then presumably that would imply that the Stud Owners,  should have known better.  Without a crystal ball,  few could have predicted our current economic problems.

The racing industry is (or was!) dependent upon a steady supply of racing stock,  on an annual  basis.  Many,  including me,  thought that this recession would be like most,  in that after a year or two,  the world would return to normal,  and that those who had the where-withall to ride the storm,  would come out of it with value improved assets.  That hasn't happened,  and it isn't going to,  for some while.  We've yet to hit rock bottom,  and it's some way off.

Within the next two years,  I predict,  there will be a great many TB stud farms which go out of business.  This will have a knock on effect upon trainers and those veterinary practices who rely upon the racing industry.  It hasn't happened yet,  but it will.

Strangely,  I suspect that my portents of doom and gloom will be for the long term good.  Refining the business of breeding will mean that the better horses,  stud farms,  vets and trainers will hang on,  and when an upturn occurs,  they will be positioned to grow.

On a more positive note,  I understand that there are those owners of stud farms,  specifically around Newmarket,  who are leasing or renting out their premises,  and who are coming to realise that their often monstrous rents need reviewing.  Reducing rents,  means that keep charges are reduced,  and who does that affect?  Those of us who keep mares at stud,  that's who!!

Alec.
		
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## angrovestud (3 December 2011)

sallyf said:



			But this is relevent in any breeding ,take a look at foal ads at the moment there are many many foals and youngsters for sale for peanuts at the moment most the product of covering poor quality mares with either too good a stallion for the mares ability or the most popular at the moment covering with a coloured stallion of some description thinking that if its coloured or unusual it will sell.
At least the original poster isnt breeding to try and make a quick buck she is trying to breed something to race herself and will take responsibility for its future which it more than i can say for a whole heap of people breeding these days.
Sorry but you only have to read alot of the other posts on this board and to me the OP has thought it through better than most.
		
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Sally I think you are so right the breeding of coloured horses in the years I have seen it escalate since 2006 when we bought our stallion to now where if its coloured keep it entire its sick making and now very pleasing to see so many who jumped on the band wagon selling there so called precious coloured stallion, I have bred coloured horses on and off for 30 years but as a buisness we decided to go in a different direction to the world and his wife hence breeding colour and bone in to the TB our Investment has been huge in terms of time money and effort but its thrilling to breed a horse for racing I wish the OP much luck you do need luck and good contacts and you need to be able to trust the people who care for your horse thats so important


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## Miss L Toe (3 December 2011)

sallyf said:



			At least the original poster isnt breeding to try and make a quick buck she is trying to breed something to race herself and will take responsibility for its future which it more than i can say for a whole heap of people breeding these days.
Sorry but you only have to read alot of the other posts on this board and to me the OP has thought it through better than most.
		
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But she knows next to nothing about TB racing, otherwise she would not be asking such a naive question!


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## Dizzle (3 December 2011)

angrovestud said:



			Sally I think you are so right the breeding of coloured horses in the years I have seen it escalate since 2006 when we bought our stallion to now where if its coloured keep it entire its sick making and now very pleasing to see so many who jumped on the band wagon selling there so called precious coloured stallion, I have bred coloured horses on and off for 30 years but as a buisness we decided to go in a different direction to the world and his wife hence breeding colour and bone in to the TB our Investment has been huge in terms of time money and effort but its thrilling to breed a horse for racing I wish the OP much luck you do need luck and good contacts and you need to be able to trust the people who care for your horse thats so important
		
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Hi,

Can you explain to me how you breed coloured tb's? I thought they had to be of solid colour to be Wetherby's registered? Sorry I though I'd asked this already on this thread but I can't see it, sorry to hijack but I've never seen or heard of a coloured tb!


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## Miss L Toe (3 December 2011)

Dizzle said:



			Hi,

Can you explain to me how you breed coloured tb's? I thought they had to be of solid colour to be Wetherby's registered? Sorry I though I'd asked this already on this thread but I can't see it, sorry to hijack but I've never seen or heard of a coloured tb!
		
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There is at least one coloured TB, and  one white one, they have to have registered TB parents. Not sure how it came about, but there must be a few rare genes  [recessive] which will produce a coloured foal if crossed to another. With advanced DNA testing, there will be more manipulation of colour 
http://www.horsetalk.co.nz/news/2009/01/051.shtml
http://www.horsetalk.co.nz/archives/2006/0603/017.shtml

http://www.horsetalk.co.nz/archives/2007/06/040.shtml


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## Dizzle (3 December 2011)

MrsD123 said:



			There is at least one coloured TB, and  one white one, they have to have registered TB parents. Not sure how it came about, but there must be a few rare genes  [recessive] which will produce a coloured foal if crossed to another. With advanced DNA testing, there will be more manipulation of colour 
http://www.horsetalk.co.nz/news/2009/01/051.shtml
http://www.horsetalk.co.nz/archives/2006/0603/017.shtml

http://www.horsetalk.co.nz/archives/2007/06/040.shtml

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Very very interesting, although I can't find either of the UK youngsters on racing post and the stud fee for the sire of the skewbald is £1000 and he doesn't appear to have ever raced.

Is it wrong that I would love a palamino tb?!


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## sallyf (3 December 2011)

magic104 said:



			I think the difference is the sheer volume the racing industry produces, even with that 35% cut.  Sadly Sally its a fact there are more TB in-foal mares going for meat then there are sporthorse mares or natives.  And lets be honest it is a bigger gamble & with the training involved you may end up with a TB who is not upto the job & has also picked up some stable vice.  Again a higher number of TB's from racing background develope stable vices, ulcers then those bred for sport.  I am not saying that sporthorses dont go onto develope the vices, but generally not until they are in work & being stabled for longer.  And yes plenty of ex racers have gone onto make excellent riding, sports & show horses.  Also I think some of us are concerned that if the experts struggle how on earth is this poster going to buck the trend?
		
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I dont know where you mean perphaps Ireland(if rumours are to be believed) but certainly not around here that is for sure.
Yes i have just ended up with an empty mare who i am trying to rehome (if not she will stay here) but she would never have gone for meat just pts.
They may be culling empty mares or rehoming them but certainly not in foal ones.
The results from Tattersalls since October have seen an increase in prices for all stock from foals upwards which is in response to better quality and less numbers being produced.
On the other hand i read lots of horror stories of Welshes and Dartmoors and more recently high profile sport horse studs stock going to sales where they have been purchased by the meat man for a £1 a head.
Unlike a lot of people who try and do it on a shoestring with no experience the OP has set herself a reasonable budget and is asking questions which suggests she wont be going blindly into it and will take plenty of proffesional advice.
I really cant see how you can compare her to studs that mass produce any type of horse for the industry.
As for vices i have several ex racehorse mares and stallions here and none have any vices despite being in training for several years.
I have 4 TB ex race horse stallions here at present and all at some point have had long spells of box rest including one that is coming to the end of 10 weeks now and none have vices.
In fact out of around 30 possibly more over the years one has cribbed and that is it.
Now sport horse mares that come onto the stud or are resident here thats a differant matter altogether we have crib biters ,box walkers and weavers.
All did it before they arrived ,some we have managed to stop to a point with a careful management routine.
Some are English bred ,some are German and most are by high profile competition stallions .
There is always 2 sides to every story.
Im departing this thread now and i wish the OP the best of luck with whatever choice she makes because at the end of the day it is a free country and she can do as she pleases.
She asked for some advice not a slating.


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## Sportznight (3 December 2011)

Playing devil's advocate, where does this 'fact' regarding in-foal broodies come from?

And again, well said Sally!


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## Luke7 (4 December 2011)

I dispise the idea of breeding coloured throughbreds who only serve as a marketing purpose and novelty value.

From the current coloured TB I've seen, it has absolute shocking conformation and I wouldn't of paid £50 for it.


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## Miss L Toe (4 December 2011)

Dizzle said:



			Very very interesting, although I can't find either of the UK youngsters on racing post and the stud fee for the sire of the skewbald is £1000 and he doesn't appear to have ever raced.

Is it wrong that I would love a palamino tb?! 

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The young TBs are un-raced so won't be on RP database yet


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## seabsicuit2 (4 December 2011)

Interesting about TB's with stable vices- i work on a TB stud and we have nearly 100 horses here , about 70 of them are currently in training have raced ,or were in  training for a year- a few years . Hand on heart I can honestly say that not one of them have a stable vice?! 
There are no in foal mares going to the meatman either - is that in Ireland?


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## magic104 (4 December 2011)

seabsicuit2 said:



			Interesting about TB's with stable vices- i work on a TB stud and we have nearly 100 horses here , about 70 of them are currently in training have raced ,or were in  training for a year- a few years . Hand on heart I can honestly say that not one of them have a stable vice?! 
There are no in foal mares going to the meatman either - is that in Ireland?
		
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No it is not just a problem in Ireland, it has increased over here.  I am sure the people who are actually despatching these animals are not going to lie about it.


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## magic104 (4 December 2011)

Sportznight said:



			Playing devil's advocate, where does this 'fact' regarding in-foal broodies come from?

And again, well said Sally!
		
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As I already answered in previous post from the people whose living it is to deal with these animals.  People can bury their heads in the sand all they like, it is happening & has happened for years.  In-foal mares from top studs were being despatched back in the 70's, a fact.


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## magic104 (4 December 2011)

Why are people so convinced that in-foal mares are not finding their way to the meat man?  That this has increased over the last 2yrs and NOT just in Ireland.  If it was not for the fact that I have heard it from the people involved then I suppose I would be like the rest of you.  Something I have also noticed is the increase in the amount of Deceased TB's listed on NED for horses that are 10 & under.  And yes I am sure quiet a few are down to things like injuries, colic etc.


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## Changes (4 December 2011)

Luke7 said:



			The only people to blame are the stud farms.

They control the population of the throughbred industry not the prospective breeder/owner.
		
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There are hundreds of small breeders out there producing plenty horses. The stud farms mostly just stand the stallions and livery the mares. 

However, I think Godolphin have a lot to answer for having offered what in effect was a free service to breeders.

The mare owners didn't need to pay the stud fee until the horses was sold, and if it didn't make the fee, they took what it did make. Or if Godolphin wanted the horse, they paid for it less the fee. 
A shocking way to play the numbers game with their own stallions.


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## Clodagh (4 December 2011)

I don't see that what the OP wants to do is any worse than anyone who breeds their own horse. I bred from my mare because I wanted to! It would have been much cheaper to have bought a foal and I would have got exactly what I wanted with no 'gambling'.
If I hadn't bred Piper presumeably I would have bought another horse therefore creating a home for one...but I had a dream and the dream was to breed my own.
Just because OP wants to breed a racehorse and I wanted to breed a hunter...Piper might be no good at hunting!
We all have to have dreams or life would get awful hum drum.


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## Alec Swan (4 December 2011)

Changes said:



			There are hundreds of small breeders out there producing plenty horses. The stud farms mostly just stand the stallions and livery the mares. 

However, I think Godolphin have a lot to answer for having offered what in effect was a free service to breeders.

The mare owners didn't need to pay the stud fee until the horses was sold, and if it didn't make the fee, they took what it did make. Or if Godolphin wanted the horse, they paid for it less the fee. 
A shocking way to play the numbers game with their own stallions. 

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"Shocking"?  Or is it sound business sense?

A.


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## Sportznight (4 December 2011)

magic104 said:



			As I already answered in previous post from the people whose living it is to deal with these animals.  People can bury their heads in the sand all they like, it is happening & has happened for years.  In-foal mares from top studs were being despatched back in the 70's, a fact.
		
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magic104 said:



			Why are people so convinced that in-foal mares are not finding their way to the meat man?  That this has increased over the last 2yrs and NOT just in Ireland.  If it was not for the fact that I have heard it from the people involved then I suppose I would be like the rest of you.  Something I have also noticed is the increase in the amount of Deceased TB's listed on NED for horses that are 10 & under.  And yes I am sure quiet a few are down to things like injuries, colic etc.
		
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Again, can you point me in the direction of hard factual evidence?  Not hearsay, evidence.


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## Changes (4 December 2011)

Alec Swan said:



			"Shocking"?  Or is it sound business sense?

A.
		
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Of course it's business sense, but so is the shipping of horses back and forth across the channel to slaughter. Doesn't make then right.


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## angrovestud (4 December 2011)

Dizzle said:



			Hi,

Can you explain to me how you breed coloured tb's? I thought they had to be of solid colour to be Wetherby's registered? Sorry I though I'd asked this already on this thread but I can't see it, sorry to hijack but I've never seen or heard of a coloured tb!
		
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Hello Drizzle we bred the coloured Tb using a placed mare (the Dam) out of a well bred mare line grandam Mille fleurs sister to Mill reef,  our mares sire is a group 1 winning sire who is also a sire of group 1 winners the coloured racehorses sire is a Tobiano 3/4 Tb stallion 1/4 I.D type we used this stallion as his sire Captan maverick own brother is a sire of a group 1 winner and their dam is a group 3 winner and there is also other winners in this pedigree we have gone a very different route to the US bred ones which carry the Frame Overo gene we did not want to introduce this gene to the UK TB for our own reasons.
I hope this gives you an idea of how we went about this our programme has been 10 years in the planning and 7 years in the making its not a marketing gimick try telling that to the coloured horses who now win at Hoys!
there are many coloured Pured breds now in the EU and its growing it will happen and trainers we have spoken to love it!


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## magic104 (4 December 2011)

Sportznight said:



			Again, can you point me in the direction of hard factual evidence?  Not hearsay, evidence.
		
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Oh Im sorry Sportznight, I was not aware that someone who worked in the industry & saw it first hand then related it back was hearsay.  How about you take a trip over to any of the slaughterhouses taking horses or talk to the guys who come out to despatch horses for a living.  Is it hearsay that someone I know took one of these mares home to foal down & then had to return her once the foal was weaned.  Are the numerous U-tube footages completely out of context?  I agree the organisation that put them out do like to make a meal of it, but it does not alter the FACT it is happening.  Last week someone took their cattle & there in a pen were 3 in-foal TB mares waiting to be processed.  What the hell were they put in-foal for if they were to end up there a few months later!

Sportznight it was not difficult to find the info out, I am sure someone as smart as yourself can do exactly the same investigating.  Mind I was not even investigating it, the matter came up inconversation.  Same as when I had a chat with the guy who came to PTS my mare.  It is his business & he volunteered the info, so it does not seem to be a huge secret.  Though not sure how much confidentiality is involved, as no one actually wants to name the studs.  Again I repeat why would anyone of them lie about it?  This is someone who has seen them & another 3 who work in the industry.  But as I said if people want to bury their head in the sand, so be it.  I pretty damned shocked at the numbers, but then got told to actually think about the numbers that are bred each year, did I really think those that did not make it to the track, along with those coming out of racing actually found nice homes.  A bit like the greyhound, there are more bred then there are homes.


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## magic104 (4 December 2011)

"Figures from the British Horseracing Authority show the recession is starting to have an impact on the breeding of thoroughbred horses, with the number of new foals being registered in Britain declining 23% between 2008 and 2010.

The BHA pointed to its own slaughter figures, based on official Food Standards Agency returns, of British-born horses registered with an independent company, Weatherbys. These showed 499 racehorses were slaughtered in 2010, a drop of 9% on the previous year. A total of 340 British-born and registered racehorses were slaughtered for meat in 2008. The BHA figures do not include thoroughbreds born abroad, chiefly in Ireland, that have never been in training in Britain or horses lost in the tracking system.

According to a BHA submission to parliament in 2009: "Thoroughbreds that have never raced are also killed in abattoirs; our initial analysis shows around 800 such animals in England, Scotland and Wales were in that category last year and a considerable proportion of these will be former breeding stock."


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## magic104 (4 December 2011)

There is also a thread about 2 TB mares & their foals going for slaughter, though the foals have been re-homed.
http://origin-forums.horseandhound.co.uk/showthread.php?p=10213975#post10213975


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## magic104 (4 December 2011)

As for vices there was an update supposed of been done in 2004 by Dr Christine Nicol, University of Bristol, and Amanda Waters, Hartpury College, on the effects weaning has towards developing stereotypic behaviour.  

Quote "Reassess your weaning technique. Bristol University and Hartpury College are looking into the importance of this by following the progress of different groups of foals. They are comparing thoroughbred foals, destined to go into training at two years old, with future eventers, who are brought on much more slowly. Conclusions will be published next year."


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## Miss L Toe (4 December 2011)

sallyf said:



			Im departing this thread now and i wish the OP the best of luck with whatever choice she makes because at the end of the day it is a free country and she can do as she pleases.
She asked for some advice not a slating.
		
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Yep, but she refused to accept advice given by well meaning and experienced people, so why ask.
Basically a beginner should not dabble in a difficult industry unless she has some experience, and or professional support, well meaning amateurs are  sometimes difficult to reason with.


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## Sportznight (4 December 2011)

Regarding the subject of slaughter - the numbers are relatively meaningless without reason for slaughter or %.  Worse things can happen to horses than death! 

As for the OP lacking experience, we all have to start somewhere!


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## Spring Feather (5 December 2011)

Sportznight said:



			As for the OP lacking experience, we all have to start somewhere!
		
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I agree which is why I never get het up about those who have taken time to try to cover their bases when embarking down the breeding route.  I just don't like to see people losing significant amounts of money that's all and unfortunately, as good as their plans may be, I think this OP will.  I do however wish him very good luck and would LOVE to see success from this venture!


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## magic104 (5 December 2011)

Sportznight said:



			Regarding the subject of slaughter - the numbers are relatively meaningless without reason for slaughter or %.  Worse things can happen to horses than death! - But no need to add to it

As for the OP lacking experience, we all have to start somewhere!
		
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 - They do but for the animals sake it is usually better to get a bit more experience behind you first.  Rather then breed in this climate what is so wrong in buying a weanling?  They asked for advice, well not all of us are going to agree, not when it comes down to the welfare of an animal who is ten a penny right now.  We have taken into account what has been put before us & advised accordingly.


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## woodlander (10 December 2011)

There is a lot of sense in caution but part of the joy of breeding is working out HOW to do it. 

We started breeding racehorses nearly 30 years ago and it was the breeding strategies of racing that formed the basis of Woodlander breeding. The importance of "black type" (that means Group and Listed race performance) in the dam line is a good indicator of likely price and also likely success as the two are directly connected and, more so than conformation!

We bred, as we do now, using line breeding. You need a mare that is related through the mother lines (not the Sire) to a good stallion and then breed back in going third dam to third dam. Some scientists say this is a spurious approach but it is a commonly held view I think and it certainly worked for us. If you buy a mare with performance in her back pedigree you can also see which lines have crossed well with her dam and grand dams. We bred several money winners from very few foals including a horse that ran in the Grand National and won £56,000. He was bred from a. then. 340guinea mare from Ascot covered by a 150 guinea stallion. The decision was based on the breeding of the full brother and half brother to the mare both of whom had Group or Listed form.

We are breeding thoroughbreds again but not now for racing. I went last week to Tattersalls to the Mare sale and the rock bottom prices were more than 3K by the time you add it all up. Some went for £2.4million! My first TB mare cost me 10,000 guineas in 1983 and I thought that was a lot but it was nothing for the premier league of racing.

Flat racers, particularly sprinters can be more expensive because they give a quicker return to owners and trainers. Real classically bred mares  will also fetch money if there is form. You just have to sit and wait for the one that you can afford. The wrong sale is often a good place to look as buyers are going for reasons other than buying a filly or mare perhaps. Also go for the earliest or latest lots when interest is at the lowest.

Do your research and the thoroughbred industry is miles ahead of sportshorse breeding with sire data. Don't buy a mare with her own or her dam's breeding record showing a lot of unraced stock or barren years. That will be expensive too in lost time and opportunity.

Have fun


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## Miss L Toe (12 December 2011)

Yes Lynn, 
fine to start breeding if the reason is sensible, to try breed a racehorse these days is not, but it seems only part of the reason, it is mainly to allow daughter to gain breeding knowledge, well she would be better working at a stud for twelve months, then going to college to learn the genetics side, and business management.
I suspect if OP is still reading her post she has gone off the idea. Lets hope she starts nearer the finishing post by finding a good trainer [who will look after her interests] and he buys her a good four year old. 
This will get her in to racing, and give her plenty of interest, to wait seven years for such a project to mature from sperm to Cheltenham, well its hopeless.


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## AMH (12 December 2011)

I've not had time to read the whole thread, so apologies if I'm repeating what's already been said.

I'm someone who's just embarked on breeding a racehorse. She's now 6 months old and due for weaning. We've already had our first setback - I went to see her at stud a couple of weeks ago and she was lame in the field. I think she'd gone over and tweaked herself, she's better now than she was but still a little stiff.

We all know that foals, and especially TB foals, are four-legged accidents waiting to happen. My costs were very modest. I paid only a few hundred pounds for the stud fee but the stallion has decent results for what he's produced. The mare was no great shakes on the track but is nice and good in her conformation, and has produced a very, very nice foal - to be honest she's exceeded my expectations. If my mare was poorly conformed or vice-ridden, I wouldn't have bred from her. But she's a 'nice' mare with a good temperament and not bad form in her pedigree (no black type, but winners). She has good things to pass on.

My OH and I are breeding for ourselves. We will own the filly always, unless she wins a big race and someone offers us the earth for her! We intend to gather a group of friends to share in the costs and, hopefully, the fun of owning a racehorse, and already have several people interested. 

Regarding all the comments about irresponsible breeding - I agree that in recent years there has been a lot of mediocrity in breeding which inevitably leads to wastage. But not everyone has the money to own a Group or Grade horse - I'm never expecting this filly to run above Class 4 hurdles, and I'm certainly not expecting her to pay for herself. 

I would also say that breeding costs for NH are cheaper, and at the moment it's not unreasonable to expect to pick up dams of winners for very reasonable sums. 

I will never be Khalid Abdulla or the Aga Khan. I have a nice mare and would like to see if she can produce something that will win races. I don't think that's such a bad goal. I'm aware of the potential costs involved and if at some point we're faced with huge vet bills and have to make a decision that's driven by financial contraints rather than emotion, then so be it, but that's how I've always been with my horses.


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## Alec Swan (12 December 2011)

It's just occurred to me,  that the OP posed the question "*How* do I breed a racehorse"  rather than "*Should* I"!   The "How to"  offerings have been rather less,  than the "Should I"  responses,  though I accept that the latter were well reasoned,  and well intended.

Racehorses are a gamble,  whether we stand in a betting shop,  or own the mares,  it seems to me.  It also seems to me,  strangely,  that the single,  or limited mare owners,  seem to have proportionally greater success than the multi-mare-owning people.  Perhaps I'm wrong.

Having doubtless digested the well thought out arguments on here,  GMT,  are you to persevere?  I for one hope that you do,  and if you do,  then I'm sure that I'm not alone in wishing you well.

Alec.


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## Miss L Toe (12 December 2011)

Alec Swan said:



			It's just occurred to me,  that the OP posed the question "*How* do I breed a racehorse"  rather than "*Should* I"!   The "How to"  offerings have been rather less,  than the "Should I"  responses,  though I accept that the latter were well reasoned,  and well intended.

Racehorses are a gamble,  whether we stand in a betting shop,  or own the mares,  it seems to me.  It also seems to me,  strangely,  that the single,  or limited mare owners,  seem to have proportionally greater success than the multi-mare-owning people.  Perhaps I'm wrong.

Having doubtless digested the well thought out arguments on here,  GMT,  are you to persevere?  I for one hope that you do,  and if you do,  then I'm sure that I'm not alone in wishing you well.

Alec.
		
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I don't think the OP [who has disappeared] has ever been in a betting shop probably never been to the races, in fact knows nothing about racing.
Lets hope she forgets the whole idea.


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## Miss L Toe (12 December 2011)

AMH said:



			ntial costs involved and if at some point we're faced with huge vet bills and have to make a decision that's driven by financial contraints rather than emotion, then so be it, but that's how I've always been with my horses.
		
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So you are happy to shoot the horse you have bred?


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## emlybob (12 December 2011)

MrsD123 said:



			So you are happy to shoot the horse you have bred?
		
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MrsD123 i think you are being completely unrealistic with this comment.  No one WANTS to shoot a horse they have bred but we all have to look at the financial cost of vets fees as well as being realistic in whether a horse that is injured has the chance to fulfill it's potential in whatever we intend to do with it.  Breeders sadly to have to make decisions about their stock sometimes as accidents do happen and horses do get pts.  Its not being harsh its just real life.  If we breed without thinking about the risks and the costs of vets fees then i feel we shouldn't be breeding as accidents do occur and it is not just the thought that "it won't happen to me" as it can and it does


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## Alec Swan (12 December 2011)

MrsD123 said:



			So you are happy to shoot the horse you have bred?
		
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If needs be,  then that's what I'd do.  I shoot my own sheep and cattle,  so why not my horse?

Alec.


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## angrovestud (13 December 2011)

In The Spirit of all things festive I wish the OP Good luck Good fortune, and I for one am not anyones keeper or judge I hope you have much fun and please let us know if you do well Best wishes Heather and Merry Christmas


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## Sportznight (13 December 2011)

Ditto Angrove!


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## AMH (13 December 2011)

MrsD123 said:



			So you are happy to shoot the horse you have bred?
		
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I'm sorry, I don't usually make personal remarks about people's posts, but this is a completely idiotic comment.

There come times when horses have injuries which might well be treatable with a degree of success, but that treatment might be hugely expensive. It's not common (in fact it's very rare) to buy vet fee cover for racing TBs, mainly because the premiums are extortionate. I'm afraid I don't have the resources to pay for a horse to have expensive surgeries or spend weeks in a vet clinic.

But just because I'm prepared to make a decision based on economics, that doesn't mean I'd be 'happy' about it or find it in any way easy. I did it earlier this year - in hindsight I saved money because hospitalising the animal would have done no good at all, its condition was untreatable. 

Anyway, I don't want to hijack this thread - I wish the OP all the luck in the world. It's very exciting to breed horses in expectation of future success, and all the so called, and often self-proclaimed, 'experts' had to start somewhere.


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## magic104 (14 December 2011)

Just to prove that sometimes you can make money from racehorses & as we are talking broodmares

Diary by Green Desert she was bought as an unraced 2yo Oct 2001 for about £7,350 sent to Greece where she won 3 races 2005 came back sold through Tattersalls for £11,500 having produced 1 foal.  Totol Gallery failed to sell when he first went through the sale ring but did rather well on the race course.  Her 3rd foal Lady Darshann finished runner-up in a top 2yo race causing Diary's value to rise & in the Tattersalls Nov 2010 sale & in-foal to Galileo she sold for £1,365,000.  At the same sale her daughter Lady Darshann sold for £630,000 & the foal sold for £210,000.  Not a bad return on £7,350, even with all the costs from 2yrs to 11yrs!


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## Sportznight (14 December 2011)

magic104 said:



			Just to prove that sometimes you can make money from racehorses & as we are talking broodmares

Diary by Green Desert she was bought as an unraced 2yo Oct 2001 for about £7,350 sent to Greece where she won 3 races 2005 came back sold through Tattersalls for £11,500 having produced 1 foal.  Totol Gallery failed to sell when he first went through the sale ring but did rather well on the race course.  Her 3rd foal Lady Darshann finished runner-up in a top 2yo race causing Diary's value to rise & in the Tattersalls Nov 2010 sale & in-foal to Galileo she sold for £1,365,000.  At the same sale her daughter Lady Darshann sold for £630,000 & the foal sold for £210,000.  Not a bad return on £7,350, even with all the costs from 2yrs to 11yrs!
		
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And on the flip side, Diary produced a dead foal having been purchased for that sum...!  Oh and Lady Darshaan was bought for 600,000Gns   And is now in the USA expecting her first foal to a top international stallion


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## magic104 (14 December 2011)

Sportznight said:



			And on the flip side, Diary produced a dead foal having been purchased for that sum...!  Oh and Lady Darshaan was bought for 600,000Gns  

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So 600,000gns x £1.05 = £?


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## Sportznight (14 December 2011)

Lol Magic!! Tiz true! Love that you pick up on that and not that the foal her dam was carrying was born dead after such an investment


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