# Horses losing condition in the winter



## Wagtail (4 July 2011)

Whilst we are in the midst of summer and all our horses are looking great, I thought I would raise the contentious subject of horses that lose condition in the winter.

I have cared for many horses over thirty years. No horse has ever lost condition over the winter whilst in my care. My personal belief is that if a horse can look great during the summer, then so long as it is adequately fed and kept warm and dry, there is no reason for it to lose condition over the winter months. 

People might argue that it is because the horse is old or losing teeth, or ill. These are all valid reasons for a horse to lose condition, but these horses will lose condition at any time of the year, not just the winter. If they can eat enough to keep the weight on during the summer then provided they are given the correct forage (hay replacers etc) during the winter and kept warm, then they will thrive.

What do others think?

Incidentally, I think it is also bad to let horses get overweight. The yoyoing of weight from fat in the summer to thin in the winter is even worse IMO.

ETA there may be the occasional horse that loses condition due to the stress of being kept in during the winter. I can accept this scenario, even though I have not experienced it myself.


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## Bug2007 (4 July 2011)

Generally there is no reason as to why a horse should loose condition in the winter, you adjust feeding etc.... to reflect the conditions.

But I do believe in keeping the horses natural way of living asa close as possible and that is to include allowing them to drop some weight in the winter....NOTE drop weight not condition they ARE two different things!!!!

As if wild they would lose weight in the winter and then put it back on in the summer. You will rarely see a fat wild pony. Or for that matter one with laminatis.


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## Wagtail (4 July 2011)

Bug2007 said:



			Generally there is no reason as to why a horse should loose condition in the winter, you adjust feeding etc.... to reflect the conditions.

But I do believe in keeping the horses natural way of living asa close as possible and that is to include allowing them to drop some weight in the winter....NOTE drop weight not condition they ARE two different things!!!!

As if wild they would lose weight in the winter and then put it back on in the summer. You will rarely see a fat wild pony. Or for that matter one with laminatis.
		
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Of course wild horses lose weight in the winter. That is because the grass loses its nutrients and there is not so much food around generally. However, we are keeping domestic horses that we expect to work for us and we can provide them with the forage needed so they do not drop weight. Just because animals drop weight in the wild, or even starve, does not mean that is how we should manage them.

Do you also cut down your dogs food in the winter? As if he was in the wild he would drop lots of weight as food would be scarce.


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## Wagtail (4 July 2011)

Anyone else?


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## Colleen_Miss_Tom (4 July 2011)

My 5 year old mare drops weight, she gets as much haylage as she can possibly manage in winter , She does get hardfeed whenever shes in work if the weather allows etc . 

At the minute she is now out of work again due to my hospitalisation and she has dropped weight due to not enough grass (haylage being fed out in the paddock) . 

Good haylage can never make up for Dr green  in my opinion . 

So I do disagree with yourself .


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## Wagtail (4 July 2011)

Colleen_Miss_Tom said:



			My 5 year old mare drops weight, she gets as much haylage as she can possibly manage in winter , She does get hardfeed whenever shes in work if the weather allows etc . 

At the minute she is now out of work again due to my hospitalisation and she has dropped weight due to not enough grass (haylage being fed out in the paddock) . 

Good haylage can never make up for Dr green  in my opinion . 

So I do disagree with yourself .
		
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Unless your horse just does not eat enough then it just does not make sense. Is it because she simply does not like haylage enough to keep her weight on? Have you tried feeding readigrass or graze-on? Or Allen and page fast fibre? My suggestion would be that if you found a forage that she likes as much as grass, that she would not drop weight.


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## touchstone (4 July 2011)

I do feel that there are exceptions to simply a lack of feed being the only reason for weight loss.

An older horse's metabolism isn't the same as when he was younger and this can affect weight, it may also have dentition problems that can affect it and yet still gain weight in the summer; good grass is highly calorific and fairly easy to digest whereas hay and haylage do take much more chewing/digesting, so winter can be much more challenging anyway, with harsher conditions, lower temperatures etc all contributing to weight loss.

I have seen older horses and those with health issues deteriorate in winter despite ample food, even after doing well in the summer and this is one of the reasons that I am in favour of giving horses that are approaching the end of their lives a last summer rather than putting them through another winter.

I also feel it is beneficial to allow a slight weight loss over the winter, especially in overweight animals.  Horses are often kept rather too well all year round and this can contribute to problems, allowing the metabolism problems to creep in such as insulin resistance and laminitis.  A thinner horse has much less stress on joints, lungs/heart etc so winter can be a good opportunity for those that struggle with gaining weight over the summer months.  (I'm certainly not condoning starving or underweight horses here btw.)

Other management issues also need to be looked at, such as dentistry, worming, rugging, clipping or not etc, they all combine alongside good diet to keep a horse healthy in winter.


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## Colleen_Miss_Tom (4 July 2011)

I'd rather not spoil my horse, Shes abit like my 2 boys, if they dont eat what they are given then tough .....I know its good for them so thats their problem ......  

She looses weight but not in the sense its unhealthy so I really dont see a problem .


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## Amaranta (4 July 2011)

Wagtail said:



			Unless your horse just does not eat enough then it just does not make sense. Is it because she simply does not like haylage enough to keep her weight on? Have you tried feeding readigrass or graze-on? Or Allen and page fast fibre? My suggestion would be that if you found a forage that she likes as much as grass, that she would not drop weight. 

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NONE of your suggestions have a higher DE than Haylage - especially the  Fast Fibre which has a DE below maintenance and therefore should be fed to a good doer to keep weight down!


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## siennamum (4 July 2011)

Although I have no scientific reasons for thinking this, I do like my horses to look covered going into Winter and to look leaner going into Spring. Mine live out and are really not pampered, they always lose weight over Winter, compared to Summer, I think there's something natural about it.


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## Wagtail (4 July 2011)

Amaranta said:



			NONE of your suggestions have a higher DE than Haylage - especially the  Fast Fibre which has a DE below maintenance and therefore should be fed to a good doer to keep weight down!
		
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I have known people get weight on their horses by using fast fibre. I add it to hard feed and it works wonders on poor doers that are too fizzy on conditioning feeds.


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## Amaranta (4 July 2011)

Wagtail said:



			I have known people get weight on their horses by using fast fibre. I add it to hard feed and it works wonders on poor doers that are too fizzy on conditioning feeds.
		
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That will be because it is fibre and will help the horse's digestive system work more efficiently - it is NOT a subsitute for good haylage or indeed hay, although it is useful for horses who can no longer chew long fibre you would also have to add calories for weight gain.


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## Wagtail (4 July 2011)

I have never known a horse that did not eat more than enough haylage. I honestly have the problem of making sure horses don't GAIN weight over the winter. I don't feed ad lib, although I'd like to because they would all look pregnant if I did. I DO feed an average of 16 kg of haylage per horse per day split into five feeds.


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## Wagtail (4 July 2011)

Amaranta said:



			That will be because it is fibre and will help the horse's digestive system work more efficiently - it is NOT a subsitute for good haylage or indeed hay, although it is useful for horses who can no longer chew long fibre you would also have to add calories for weight gain.
		
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I would never substitute good haylage, but with a horse that is not eating enough haylage, I would offer it in addition. I must have cared for well over 100 horses of all ages and breeds, and never had one lose weight, so I really do not understand it.


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## Bug2007 (4 July 2011)

Obviously you don't allow the weight to drop like they do in the wild, that would be stupid, i was making the point that generally most horses in work or not (domesticated) will put on weight in the summer due to the grass and weather conditions. So letting them drop some weight in the winter is not a bad thing as it stops you have an unhealthy fat horse in the summer. 

My horses are by no means skinny in the winter, they are perfect weight for the breeds that they are, but they are allowed to drop to this weight from the summer so they don't turn into hippo's come the spring. 

I did at no point say that they should be skinny and starving.


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## Bug2007 (4 July 2011)

Wagtail said:



			I have never known a horse that did not eat more than enough haylage.
		
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Mine boy won't touch the stuff.

Not a hay fan either. Out 24/7 and is fine on grass and hard feed.


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## Ellies_mum2 (4 July 2011)

siennamum said:



			Although I have no scientific reasons for thinking this, I do like my horses to look covered going into Winter and to look leaner going into Spring. Mine live out and are really not pampered, they always lose weight over Winter, compared to Summer, I think there's something natural about it.
		
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I am with you on this one. To my mind it is more natural for the horse to do this. 


BUT are we talking about weight or condition? The two are very different


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## Wagtail (4 July 2011)

What is 'natural' is not always better. It is not natural for horses to be ridden, so why should they be left to lose weight in winter when they actually need more fat to insulate them? Similarly, it is natural for them to gain weight during the summer, but this is not healthy for them. I think it is up to us as horse owners to ensure that our horses' weight stays at a steady healthy level throughout the year.


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## spaniel (4 July 2011)

Horses are designed to pile on weight through the spring to prepare them for breeding and foaling and again in the autumn to prepare them for winter.  It is totally UN Natural to come through the winter without losing that store of fat.

Guard against obesity and starvation and accept the fact that horses actually know what they are doing!

Maybe Wagtail would like to illustrate her point with some pictures of the 100 horses she has had over the years.  Im sure im not the only one who would be interested in seeing how well they all look.


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## Colleen_Miss_Tom (4 July 2011)

Ellies_mum2 said:



			I am with you on this one. To my mind it is more natural for the horse to do this. 


BUT are we talking about weight or condition? The two are very different
		
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Well as the title suggests condition .....Ill go with condition in that case , I think practically every horse in this country looses condition no matter how little . 

Due to the lovely weather its not possible for me personally to keep the same condition as I would in summer .


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## Baggybreeches (4 July 2011)

Wagtail said:



			I have never known a horse that did not eat more than enough haylage. I honestly have the problem of making sure horses don't GAIN weight over the winter. I don't feed ad lib, although I'd like to because they would all look pregnant if I did. I DO feed an average of 16 kg of haylage per horse per day split into five feeds.
		
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I assume that they dont get any hard feed ration with that amount of haylage?


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## Wagtail (4 July 2011)

spaniel said:



			Horses are designed to pile on weight through the spring to prepare them for breeding and foaling and again in the autumn to prepare them for winter.  It is totally UN Natural to come through the winter without losing that store of fat.

Guard against obesity and starvation and accept the fact that horses actually know what they are doing!

Maybe Wagtail would like to illustrate her point with some pictures of the 100 horses she has had over the years.  Im sure im not the only one who would be interested in seeing how well they all look.
		
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Why do you find it so difficult to accept that horses can look in the same excellent condition throughout winter and summer? That is very strange. I started aged just 8 helping to look after my pony. At age nineteen I was groom and riding instructor at a riding school and hunting yard and became manager at age twenty looking after 36 horses and two staff. The horses were rapidly being bought and sold so I had experience of getting on for a hundred of them at that yard alone. I then went to uni as a mature student and gave up working with horses caring DIY for my own. After another ten years I gave up my job to work at home and bring up my two children. I took in horses for training and schooling at a rented yard. Eight years ago we bought our own yard and I opened my livery yard where I care for full and part livery and take in horses for training. So easily a hundred.

And why would you think anyone would post up pictures of their own or clients horses on a forum like this one? Especially if they run a horse related business.


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## Amaranta (4 July 2011)

spaniel said:



			Horses are designed to pile on weight through the spring to prepare them for breeding and foaling and again in the autumn to prepare them for winter.  It is totally UN Natural to come through the winter without losing that store of fat.

Guard against obesity and starvation and accept the fact that horses actually know what they are doing!

Maybe Wagtail would like to illustrate her point with some pictures of the 100 horses she has had over the years.  Im sure im not the only one who would be interested in seeing how well they all look.
		
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Quite


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## Amaranta (4 July 2011)

Wagtail said:



			I have never known a horse that did not eat more than enough haylage. I honestly have the problem of making sure horses don't GAIN weight over the winter. I don't feed ad lib, although I'd like to because they would all look pregnant if I did. I DO feed an average of 16 kg of haylage per horse per day split into five feeds.
		
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Well I have one in my present herd, she will not touch haylage but will eat hay quite happily.  She is also very aged (32) and can drop off dramatically over winter if I don't keep an eye on her.

I agree with Spaniel that horses are actually designed to drop weight over winter and the fact that some uninformed owners think this is wrong is one of the reasons laminitis is so prevalent today.


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## Damnation (4 July 2011)

I generally agree, obviously there are exceptions. My last mare, a tb who was a hat rack when I bought her was always a good doer.
The mare I have now was described to me as a poor winter doer but she is now what I would class as a good doer.
I don't feed much hard feed. I just ensure they are warm enough with enoughad lib hay/hayledge as possible.
Touch wood I have never had anything come very lean out of winter. Slightly lean if I know they will balloon on spring grass but apart from that they look rather good.


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## Ellies_mum2 (4 July 2011)

spaniel said:



			Horses are designed to pile on weight through the spring to prepare them for breeding and foaling and again in the autumn to prepare them for winter.  It is totally UN Natural to come through the winter without losing that store of fat.

Guard against obesity and starvation and accept the fact that horses actually know what they are doing!

Maybe Wagtail would like to illustrate her point with some pictures of the 100 horses she has had over the years.  Im sure im not the only one who would be interested in seeing how well they all look.
		
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Where is the  LIKE button when you want it?


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## Maesfen (4 July 2011)

Agree totally with Touchstone, Spaniel and Siennamum plus the others that agree it's no bad thing in moderation.


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## Wagtail (4 July 2011)

Baggybreeches said:



			I assume that they dont get any hard feed ration with that amount of haylage?
		
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They get Alfa A and high fibre cubes. A couple who are in medium work also get competition mix. The good doers obviously get less than the others. But I never understand how anyone maintains a horse's condition on only 10 kg of haylage unless they are on loads of hard feed. 

Also during the winter, my horses do not go out on grass. They have haylage nets in an all weather turnout, so the 16 kg of haylage is the only forage they get.


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## spaniel (4 July 2011)

Thaks for the CV although I dont think that was really necessary.  A photo would have done just as nicely.


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## Maesfen (4 July 2011)

Amaranta said:



			I agree with Spaniel that horses are actually designed to drop weight over winter and the fact that some uninformed owners think this is wrong is one of the reasons laminitis is so prevalent today.
		
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Agree with this totally.  Kindness and ignorance really can be the biggest killers.


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## Wagtail (4 July 2011)

Amaranta said:



			Well I have one in my present herd, she will not touch haylage but will eat hay quite happily.  She is also very aged (32) and can drop off dramatically over winter if I don't keep an eye on her.

I agree with Spaniel that horses are actually designed to drop weight over winter and the fact that some uninformed owners think this is wrong is one of the reasons laminitis is so prevalent today.
		
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I don't think it is so much a matter of design as being able to 'cope with' fluctuations in food availability. As I said earlier, dogs will dramatically drop weight in the winter if they live wild. Why do you not then cut down their food in the winter? They too are 'designed' for it.

I believe that horses (and dogs) are healthier if they maintain a steady ideal weight throughout the year.

ETA Laminitis is so prevalent because people put their horses out onto pasture that is too lush.


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## Wagtail (4 July 2011)

bakedbean said:



			are you confusing FF with calm and condition?

its quite easily done, made by the same feed co., in the same colour bag and well soaked to feed.

but they achieve different things, believe it or not
		
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No  I am not confusing the two.


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## siennamum (4 July 2011)

I'm not talking about a dramatic weight loss. Because mine are out and live on grass & hay & nothing else (apart from vits/mins) they are more prone to the goodness in the grass and the weather conditions. The can com ein if they want and will do so if the weather is really nasty or if we have lots of mud, but that is a rare occurence.
This is last years herd coming out of winter. There is a TB, who had his rugs off for the 1st time (in the sunshine) and x2 ISH, on in the background, one youngster in the foreground. As you can see - not poor, just maintaining a reasonable condition.


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## Hippona (4 July 2011)

Wagtail said:



			Incidentally, I think it is also bad to let horses get overweight. The yoyoing of weight from fat in the summer to thin in the winter is even worse IMO.

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Whilst its not good for horses to get fat obviously....the gaining condition in summer and losing it in winter is natural. I read somewhere that when we try to keep our horses in good condition over winter and they enter spring already looking good...then we are increasing the risk of laminitis.

I dont starve mine over winter- they have ad-lib hay - but I purposely don't rug them unless its particularly wet. I prefer them to drop a bit of weight and go into spring leaner looking.

Mind you - mine are natives- they are looking 'good' on well-scrappy grazing right now


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## Amaranta (4 July 2011)

Wagtail said:



			But I never understand how anyone maintains a horse's condition on only 10 kg of haylage unless they are on loads of hard feed.
		
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Really?  Perhaps you need to make a change in your stable management, either that or you have only had to manage TBs or the like!  

Most horses in this country do not do enough work to need 'hard' feed and can exist totally on either good quality hay or haylage, with perhaps the addition of a vit/min supplement.  Unless a horse is working hard, and by hard I mean eventing or hunting or the like, they actually don't need cereals.  We should feed according to workload and far far too many horses are overfed, hence the fact we are seeing more and more nutritionally caused diseases like laminitis and EMS and calming products are the biggest selling additives in the UK.


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## Maesfen (4 July 2011)

Amaranta said:



			Really?  Perhaps you need to make a change in your stable management, either that or you have only had to manage TBs or the like!  

Most horses in this country do not do enough work to need 'hard' feed and can exist totally on either good quality hay or haylage, with perhaps the addition of a vit/min supplement.  Unless a horse is working hard, and by hard I mean eventing or hunting or the like, they actually don't need cereals.  We should feed according to workload and far far too many horses are overfed, hence the fact we are seeing more and more nutritionally caused diseases like laminitis and EMS and calming products are the biggest selling additives in the UK.
		
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Where's the Like button when you need it?


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## Wagtail (4 July 2011)

bakedbean said:



			are you sure? 

go on, tell me..it'll be our little secret
		
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I caught my teenaged daughter trolling the other day. Got her banned from the internet for a couple of days. You are not her are you?


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## touchstone (4 July 2011)

Wagtail said:



			ETA Laminitis is so prevalent because people put their horses out onto pasture that is too lush.
		
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Not always; there is scientific research that shows an overweight horse is far more likely to develop laminitis whether on good grass or not.


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## Spudlet (4 July 2011)

Wagtail said:



			Do you also cut down your dogs food in the winter? As if he was in the wild he would drop lots of weight as food would be scarce.
		
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As a matter of interest - my dog did drop condition last winter because he worked, and although he was fed extra, was in good condition to begin with and only worked once a week at most he still came out of winter a bit skinnier and a lot thinner than he went in. I fully expect the same to happen this year.

I also agree that lots of horses are overfed and that hard feed is not always as vital as people think. And that for many horses, dropping a bit of chub in the winter is no bad thing!


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## Amaranta (4 July 2011)

Wagtail said:



			ETA Laminitis is so prevalent because people put their horses out onto pasture that is too lush.
		
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Oh dear, you really really need to read up on the causes of laminitis.

Yes, SOME cases are caused by a pasture that is too lush or stressed, but the root cause is too much starch in the diet, this can be from many areas including the overfeeding of cereals, I have known horses stabled 24/7 who have gone down with laminitis.


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## Wagtail (4 July 2011)

Amaranta said:



			Really?  Perhaps you need to make a change in your stable management, either that or you have only had to manage TBs or the like!  

Most horses in this country do not do enough work to need 'hard' feed and can exist totally on either good quality hay or haylage, with perhaps the addition of a vit/min supplement.  Unless a horse is working hard, and by hard I mean eventing or hunting or the like, they actually don't need cereals.  We should feed according to workload and far far too many horses are overfed, hence the fact we are seeing more and more nutritionally caused diseases like laminitis and EMS and calming products are the biggest selling additives in the UK.
		
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I care for mainly TBs and warmbloods, but also have two cobs on the yard. Yes they get quite a bit less. They practically live on fresh air and it would be hard to make them lose weight during the winter. But the others need far more than is often recommended.


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## spaniel (4 July 2011)

Im surprised to hear you say that if ref to warmbloods,  after all they are in essence draft horse/tb crosses and IME live pretty much on fresh air unless hunting.


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## Ibblebibble (4 July 2011)

totally agree with all the reasons for letting horses come out of winter leaner than when they went in, nature really does know best, it's just us interfering humans who cause the problems.
 comparing horses to dogs is silly, totally different feeding systems! horses are designed to feed almost continuously, little and often, dogs on the other hand are designed to eat larger meals farther apart, sometimes days apart in the wild!


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## Amaranta (4 July 2011)

Wagtail said:



			I care for mainly TBs and warmbloods, but also have two cobs on the yard. Yes they get quite a bit less. They practically live on fresh air and it would be hard to make them lose weight during the winter. But the others need far more than is often recommended.
		
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The TBs I can understand, but many WBs are good doers, I appreciate that not all are though.  If you are having to feed that much I would be getting my pasture tested tbh as you must be one of the only yards in the country who is having to feed MORE than the manufacturers recommended levels!  Most people feed far less and add a vit supplement so whilst you are at it - get your hay and haylage tested too as it does not sound up to scratch!


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## Wagtail (4 July 2011)

Amaranta said:



			Oh dear, you really really need to read up on the causes of laminitis..
		
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Ah an attempt to ridicule the person you are arguing with on the forum in order to score brownie points from the others. That's a real shame. I must be talking to another kid then. 



Amaranta said:



			Yes, SOME cases are caused by a pasture that is too lush or stressed, but the root cause is too much starch in the diet, this can be from many areas including the overfeeding of cereals, I have known horses stabled 24/7 who have gone down with laminitis.
		
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Preaching to the converted here.  My horses get lots of forage and practically no cereals.


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## Wagtail (4 July 2011)

spaniel said:



			Im surprised to hear you say that if ref to warmbloods,  after all they are in essence draft horse/tb crosses and IME live pretty much on fresh air unless hunting.
		
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You are joking! I only have one warmblood that is a good doer on the yard. I have a Belgian, a Danish, a Dutch, and a Hanovarian. Can you guess which one is the good doer?


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## Baggybreeches (4 July 2011)

Wagtail said:



			. But I never understand how anyone maintains a horse's condition on only 10 kg of haylage unless they are on loads of hard feed. 

Also during the winter, my horses do not go out on grass. They have haylage nets in an all weather turnout, so the 16 kg of haylage is the only forage they get.
		
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My horses race on 14lb of haylage per day and 6lb of hard feed (Spillers slow release mix), this is more than enough for them, and they never looked the leanest horses in the paddock. Fit and toned. 
Too many people feed horses far too much all year round and again it is overfeeding which is causing so much laminitis all year round.
Even now my big TB (17.1hh raw boned type) is getting 18lb of haylage with 3lb of hard feed to cover his light/medium work he looks amazing and is definitely not short of energy


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## Amaranta (4 July 2011)

Wagtail said:



			Ah an attempt to ridicule the person you are arguing with on the forum in order to score brownie points from the others. That's a real shame. I must be talking to another kid.
		
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I don't feel the need to point score, and I was not arguing but debating, you obviously do not know the difference.  I merely pointed out that you should read up on laminitis as there were obvious gaps in your knowledge on it.  But I see you feel you are losing this 'argument' and have felt the need to get personal - shame really


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## rhino (4 July 2011)

Wagtail said:



			You are joking! I only have one warmblood that is a good doer on the yard. I have a Belgian, a Danish, a Dutch, and a Hanovarian. Can you guess which one is the good doer?
		
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Is it the BWP? If not, then my boy has the 'fat genes' for both of them


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## Lady La La (4 July 2011)

Wagtail said:



			Preaching to the converted here.  My horses get lots of forage and practically no cereals.
		
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no cereals... just comp mix


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## Wagtail (4 July 2011)

Baggybreeches said:



			My horses race on 14lb of haylage per day and 6lb of hard feed (Spillers slow release mix), this is more than enough for them, and they never looked the leanest horses in the paddock. Fit and toned. 
Too many people feed horses far too much all year round and again it is overfeeding which is causing so much laminitis all year round.
Even now my big TB (17.1hh raw boned type) is getting 18lb of haylage with 3lb of hard feed to cover his light/medium work he looks amazing and is definitely not short of energy
		
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I would not expect him to be (if you mean kg) You must be talking about kg not lbs surely? 18lb of haylage is bearly a haynet and a half. 3 lb of feed is bearly a scoop.


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## Dolcé (4 July 2011)

I do agree that horses CAN be kept looking just as good in winter as they do in summer but I disagreed in the poll.  We deliberately allow ours to lose both weight and condition over winter, not quite to negligence levels but certainly on the lean side.  Since deciding on this, which was accidental the first time I admit due to a change in circumstances meaning ad lib hay or haylage but no hard feed, we have had some interesting results.  We have had no signs of lami whatsoever in the 4 very susceptible ones, including the one who is very portly and the only one of 14 NOT to lose weight, more interesting is the one who has been completely cured of sweet itch.  This boy was home bred and had worn a rug 24/7/365 from his first winter because the minute you took it off he started rubbing.  He has now not worn a rug of any kind, nor been treated in any way for sweet itch, since the winter 2009/10.  He does not rub at all and has a full mane and tail for the first time in his life.

Whilst we allow the drop in condition I should explain that none are working in any way at the moment, all live out and all are monitored very closely to check they do not lose too much, there is a big difference between what the tb and warmbloods are allowed to drop compared to the native ponies.

ETA we don't ever feed cereals any more, all hard feed is forage based and the ponies are fed hay or haylage weighed according to their needs.


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## Baggybreeches (4 July 2011)

Wagtail said:



			I would not expect him to be (if you mean kg) You must be talking about kg not lbs surely? 18lb of haylage is bearly a haynet and a half. 3 lb of feed is bearly a scoop.
		
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Nope I do mean lbs. Which exactly illustrates my point, that horses are overfed by vast quantities. 'Save your purse, save your pony' should be the BHS's welfare strapline!


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## Wagtail (4 July 2011)

Lady La La said:



			no cereals... just comp mix 

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Yes, the two that compete regularly get a scoop of comp mix a day. Sometimes one has to have two scoops a day if his owner wants him to have more oomph. The others have virtually no cereals at all. 

Are you trying to imply that they will get laminitis?


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## Wagtail (4 July 2011)

Amaranta said:



			I don't feel the need to point score, and I was not arguing but debating, you obviously do not know the difference.  I merely pointed out that you should read up on laminitis as there were obvious gaps in your knowledge on it.  But I see you feel you are losing this 'argument' and have felt the need to get personal - shame really 

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Rather than trying to look clever by attacking the other _person_. Try sticking to the subject at hand and maybe you won't come across as point scoring. Debating is discussing the matter at hand, not the person you are arguing with.

For the record, I have never once had a horse with laminitis in all my years of caring for horses. That is a fact. If you think that means I have a lack of knowledge then so be it. I know otherwise.


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## Wagtail (4 July 2011)

rhino said:



			Is it the BWP? If not, then my boy has the 'fat genes' for both of them 

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No, actually, she is quite a poor doer.


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## Amaranta (4 July 2011)

Wagtail said:



			Rather than trying to look clever by attacking the other _person_. Try sticking to the subject at hand and maybe you won't come across as point scoring. Debating is discussing the matter at hand, not the person you are arguing with.

For the record, I have never once had a horse with laminitis in all my years of caring for horses. That is a fact. If you think that means I have a lack of knowledge then so be it. I know otherwise.
		
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Well dear (yes that WAS patronising) I thought I was sticking to the subject in hand but I can see now that you feel you already know everything there is to know and you are the only one in the whole world who knows how to look after horses of all shapes and sizes, perhaps we should all bow down to your obviously superior knowledge.

Can't stop, I am waiting for the vet to come and do a 5* vetting on my horse, we are off competing this weekend.

Now that *was* point scoring


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## Wagtail (4 July 2011)

Baggybreeches said:



			Nope I do mean lbs. Which exactly illustrates my point, that horses are overfed by vast quantities. 'Save your purse, save your pony' should be the BHS's welfare strapline!
		
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I have to say that this completely surprises me. My TBs would be walking skeletons on that amount of food. They would also have ulcers as that would not be enough to keep their digestive juices going. Studies have shown that ulcers can form if horses are left without forage for more than 3 hours at a time. Even feeding 16 kg of haylage a day I struggle to ensure that this does not happen. 

But then studies have also shown that around 80 - 90% of race horses have ulcers.


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## Wagtail (4 July 2011)

Amaranta said:



			Well dear (yes that WAS patronising) I thought I was sticking to the subject in hand but I can see now that you feel you already know everything there is to know and you are the only one in the whole world who knows how to look after horses of all shapes and sizes, perhaps we should all bow down to your obviously superior knowledge.

Can't stop, I am waiting for the vet to come and do a 5* vetting on my horse, we are off competing this weekend.

Now that *was* point scoring 

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   LMAO I'm sending you a friends request.


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## Baggybreeches (4 July 2011)

Wagtail said:



			I have to say that this completely surprises me. My TBs would be walking skeletons on that amount of food.
		
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In which case I might suggest that feeding is not the be all and end all of a horses well being?

My horse doesn't have ulcers, in fact I would say apart from his box walking (which I manage by keeping him out as much as possible and using a horse walker in winter) there is very little damage been done by him being a racehorse.
I will quite happily walk to the field now and get you a snapshot of how he looks this very day on such meagre rations.
BTW if it makes any difference I also have an IDx and a Welsh Sec A and neither of those get any bucket feed at all, I don't understand why people would rather feed chop/fibre nuts when hay or haylage is just as good/the same thing?


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## tallyho! (4 July 2011)

I thought horses/ponies were meant to lose some weight over winter... well this is what is widely accepted where I come from.

I find it's imperative mine loses weight as he is laminitic and the "buffer zone" it creates is very important.


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## touchstone (4 July 2011)

Wagtail said:



			I have to say that this completely surprises me. My TBs would be walking skeletons on that amount of food. They would also have ulcers as that would not be enough to keep their digestive juices going. Studies have shown that ulcers can form if horses are left without forage for more than 3 hours at a time. Even feeding 16 kg of haylage a day I struggle to ensure that this does not happen. 

But then studies have also shown that around 80 - 90% of race horses have ulcers.
		
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I think though that you've got to bear in mind that you have to follow the rules of feeding - feed according to condition, work being done etc and if the horse maintains health and condition on a small amount then he should be fine. 

There is also new research that says iit is safe to feed as little as one percent of bodyweight to horses in order to initiate weight loss if overweight.  http://www.equinescienceupdate.co.uk/wlrhd.htm

An average horse maintains/gains weight when fed at 2 - 21/2% bodyweight which would equate to only 10kg -12kg total feed for a 500kg horse.  I know the majority of horses I've cared for would be overweight on 16kg haylage daily.


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## Hippona (4 July 2011)

Baggybreeches said:



			In which case I might suggest that feeding is not the be all and end all of a horses well being?
		
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Absolutely.....my last horse- when on a livery yard....could NOT keep the weight on him. Spent a fortune on build-up cubes/blue chip/alfa a oil- you name it- I've fed it.

Moved him to my own place.....no stress, settled herd of 3 ( all mine) he positively bloomed.....

All 3 now get hay at night- poor-ish grazing through the day and a handfull (literally - a handfull- scoop not required) of chaff with Pink Powder for tea. And to my mind they are overweight on that.

_ I will purposefully use winter to drop some weight off them._


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## Dolcé (4 July 2011)

tallyho! said:



			I thought horses/ponies were meant to lose some weight over winter... well this is what is widely accepted where I come from.

I find it's imperative mine loses weight as he is laminitic and the "buffer zone" it creates is very important.
		
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I have learned from a rather nasty experience that this is a huge part of managing laminitis, and it means I don't have to keep them in a starvation paddock all summer too, they can stay out with the rest of the herd.


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## Baggybreeches (4 July 2011)

touchstone said:



			I think though that you've got to bear in mind that you have to follow the rules of feeding - feed according to condition, work being done etc and if the horse maintains health and condition on a small amount then he should be fine. 

There is also new research that says iit is safe to feed as little as one percent of bodyweight to horses in order to initiate weight loss if overweight.  http://www.equinescienceupdate.co.uk/wlrhd.htm

An average horse maintains/gains weight when fed at 2 - 21/2% bodyweight which would equate to only 10kg -12kg total feed for a 500kg horse.  I know the majority of horses I've cared for would be overweight on 16kg haylage daily.
		
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But touchstone if it says it on the back of the bag it must be right? 

FWIW I feed my dogs in a similar fashion which equates to roughly half what the feed comapny tell you, the only exception is my old dog who gets as much as I can feed him because he has a blood condition.
I know that if I fed my horse what the feed company recommended that a) I couldn't afford my mortgage as all my money would go on feed and b/c) he would be overweight and completely unrideable!


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## tallyho! (4 July 2011)

hch4971 said:



			I have learned from a rather nasty experience that this is a huge part of managing laminitis, and it means I don't have to keep them in a starvation paddock all summer too, they can stay out with the rest of the herd.
		
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Yes! Absolutely, mine gets to live out with his chums and probably wouldn't be able to if he was fat coming out of winter. We still keep a muzzle handy during spring though...


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## Wagtail (4 July 2011)

Baggybreeches said:



			In which case I might suggest that feeding is not the be all and end all of a horses well being?

My horse doesn't have ulcers, in fact I would say apart from his box walking (which I manage by keeping him out as much as possible and using a horse walker in winter) there is very little damage been done by him being a racehorse.
I will quite happily walk to the field now and get you a snapshot of how he looks this very day on such meagre rations.
BTW if it makes any difference I also have an IDx and a Welsh Sec A and neither of those get any bucket feed at all, I don't understand why people would rather feed chop/fibre nuts when hay or haylage is just as good/the same thing?
		
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I would love it if I could cut my feed bills in half BB. I actually agree regarding the haylage being better for keeping condition than hard feed. I always recommend it on threads as opposed to hard feed. However, my liveries expect hard feed as well as haylage. I also think that horses need some sort of additional feed just to get their full range of vitamins and minerals. But only a very small amount is necessary.

Regarding the ulcers though, there is no way without scoping to say your horse does not have them. I could not guarantee ANY horse did not have them, especially as the majority of competition horses do. All I can do is try to minimise the risk and the biggest risk is standing without forage for any length of time.


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## siennamum (4 July 2011)

I get this with most horses which come to my yard. Owner comes with bags of food and a horse which has to be in a lot.

After a couple of months of old mixed grazing, in a happy herd and out 24/7 they are struggling to keep the weight off them and they are completely chilled.

My ISH (hunter in old English) was 3rd in a 2DE last year on grass/hay alone. I can't even give my lot haylage as they get too fat.

It's easy to say all this of course when you have plenty of grazing, but i really think keeping them naturally like this - hand in hand with letting them get leaner over Winter (instead of filling them with sugar/starch) and bloom & grow in the Summer - leads to happy/healthy horses.

If I had a horse which needed hard food - I hasten to add - it would get it.


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## aimsymc (4 July 2011)

my last horse a 16h tb, was a quite good doer. in summer she looked amazing on good grazing only and in winter she had 1 net of haylege in morn and 1 net at night she never finished it all. she also had 1 scoop of mix morn and night. i found the thing that kept her looking the best was work.


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## Wagtail (4 July 2011)

Baggybreeches, do you have your horses on grass in the winter? Or are they only on haylage?


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## aimsymc (4 July 2011)

sorry sent before i was finished! My new horse is a ish/wb and appears to be a very good doer (only had her a month). she doesnt get any extra hay at the mo and no hard feed shes still a wee bit chubbier than id like. come winter i will only feed enough to maintain her weight as i hate overweight horses. Id say pretty much all the other horses on my yard are grossly overweight!


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## Lady La La (4 July 2011)

Deleted. cant be bothered..


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## Baggybreeches (4 July 2011)

Wagtail said:



			Baggybreeches, do you have your horses on grass in the winter? Or are they only on haylage?
		
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No only haylage in the winter, when the field gets too wet they get turned out in my sand arena, with a pile of haylage (small pile so it doesn't get spread about and the ID hoover can clean up easily). Have done this for 5 of the last 6 winters as I only got the field at the back last year.


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## ThePinkPony (4 July 2011)

Well what about this. Her owner mentioned she thinks shes chubby.  i  would personally like her covered a bit better and will start working on the topline once shes been here another week. she was on no grass, hay and lots of hard feed. Now shes in a paddock with okay grazing and ive been giving her a scoop each of fibre cubes and coolmix and mchaff in the evening.












You cant see very well, but her ribs are visible and her hips protrude quite a bit.


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## Wagtail (4 July 2011)

Baggybreeches said:



			No only haylage in the winter, when the field gets too wet they get turned out in my sand arena, with a pile of haylage (small pile so it doesn't get spread about and the ID hoover can clean up easily). Have done this for 5 of the last 6 winters as I only got the field at the back last year.
		
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Same here, I use an all weather turnout during the winter.

Okay, then I am really puzzled. You feed 18 lbs (8 kg) of haylage a day to a 17.1 hh that has no other forage and is in medium/hard work? That is only one large net a day. Yet he looks stunning and has loads of energy?

I feed almost double to my 16.1 hh TB that is in light work (schooled/hacked 5 times a week) and he is not in the slightest overweight and lovely and calm but still plenty of energy when needed. Same is true of my two WB mares.

Something doesn't add up.


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## Wagtail (4 July 2011)

ThePinkPony said:



			Well what about this. Her owner mentioned she thinks shes chubby.  i  would personally like her covered a bit better and will start working on the topline once shes been here another week. she was on no grass, hay and lots of hard feed. Now shes in a paddock with okay grazing and ive been giving her a scoop each of fibre cubes and coolmix and mchaff in the evening.

You cant see very well, but her ribs are visible and her hips protrude quite a bit.
		
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I agree with you. She is too thin. Lovely potential though once she muscles up. Can't imagine why anyone would say she was chubby!


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## Maesfen (4 July 2011)

Interestingly, a good friend of mine, used to be a trainer's wife (flat) that had a lot of success was talking about this at a feed evening recently.  They did several trials on all different ages of racehorses in training with them and without exception, as they got fitter and nearer to race so their appetite for both forage and feed would go down rapidly and they wouldn't eat any more than they wanted.  They weren't stressed at all and the majority of them always scoped clear for ulcers too.  The same used to happen with some hunters I had here too; as much as I wanted them to have more they just wouldn't eat it even though it was there in front of them.  Some can obviously self regulate!


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## ThePinkPony (4 July 2011)

It doesnt help that she is in with my fat pony. 

What would you suggest, she is only 4 and not backed yet. i was going to put her on haylage and d+h build up. 

She will look fab once i get her working properly, its just having the space to do it as complications have arisen .


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## Wagtail (4 July 2011)

ThePinkPony said:



			It doesnt help that she is in with my fat pony. 

What would you suggest, she is only 4 and not backed yet. i was going to put her on haylage and d+h build up. 

She will look fab once i get her working properly, its just having the space to do it as complications have arisen .
		
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Even though she is thin, I would not go OTT with the feeding, especially if she's not used to it. I would gradually inroduce haylage and apart from a half scoop of good quality cubes a day, she should not need any more until her work gets harder. The more muscle she builds, the more calories she will burn. I think she will be stunning.


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## cptrayes (4 July 2011)

I deliberately bring my horses into spring leaner. Then when they put on weight with the spring grass I do not have to restrict their grazing too much.

I also do it because I have found that if I feed them in March to keep their weight on, they can suddenly balloon in weight in a couple of days if I misstime the hard feed with the grass starting and that would be very unsafe.

Lastly, horses on grass carry a lot of water and look fatter than horses on winter diets.


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## Wagtail (4 July 2011)

Maesfen said:



			Interestingly, a good friend of mine, used to be a trainer's wife (flat) that had a lot of success was talking about this at a feed evening recently.  They did several trials on all different ages of racehorses in training with them and without exception, as they got fitter and nearer to race so their appetite for both forage and feed would go down rapidly and they wouldn't eat any more than they wanted.  They weren't stressed at all and the majority of them always scoped clear for ulcers too.  The same used to happen with some hunters I had here too; as much as I wanted them to have more they just wouldn't eat it even though it was there in front of them.  Some can obviously self regulate!
		
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Personally I have never had a TB that refused any amount of haylage. However, I agree that that this is probably not the norm. It is probably that I get all the slow ones that eat too much.


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## Megibo (4 July 2011)

my native mare often gets overweight in the summer unless worked 6 days a week. she came into summer this year not too fat, just right but her paddock was moved and then she 'exploded'. she's currently on a diet on a starvation paddock with nibble-length grass and soaked hay. recreating her natural conditions as advised and it is working.
i much prefer her to be a little bit lean in the winter as it means she doesn't get awfully fat in the spring and summer months. not underweight, just lean. and she's a healthy happy chap-well as happy as you can be in winter...

due to her being overweight this year she'll be going into the winter months with no hard feed and no rug until she looks slim again. then she'll get as much feed as she needs to keep her there and a lightweight rug.


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## ThePinkPony (4 July 2011)

Wagtail said:



			Even though she is thin, I would not go OTT with the feeding, especially if she's not used to it. I would gradually inroduce haylage and apart from a half scoop of good quality cubes a day, she should not need any more until her work gets harder. The more muscle she builds, the more calories she will burn. I think she will be stunning. 

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she is used to  alot more than i give her actually.  ive taken her down from 2 sc chaff, 1 sc mix, 1 SB, 1.1/2 sc fibre cubes and ad lib haylage from her previous owner who had no grazing (btw that pic was 1st day we got her) because shes now on grazing.  im taking my time with food because you can really tell shes got grass now little madam and its not been a week and a half yet. 

and thanks, she is very pretty and cant wait to get her going.


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## Wagtail (4 July 2011)

The problem with weight fluctuating so much between summer and winter is because losing weight over winter actually slows the metabolism down. Then the weight just piles on in the summer when they go onto the grass. The problem therefore only gets worse. People doubting this only have to read the studies on people who crash diet. Slimming lowers your metabolism. You need less food then to maintain your weight. It is self defeating. If a person wants to maintain a healthy weight then losing weight for half the year and then quickly gaining it is not the way to do it. The same is true for any animal. When food reduces and the body loses weight, the metabolism slows. So I would argue that weight loss during the winter will actually make a horse gain weight FASTER in the spring.


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## Wagtail (4 July 2011)

ThePinkPony said:



			she is used to  alot more than i give her actually.  ive taken her down from 2 sc chaff, 1 sc mix, 1 SB, 1.1/2 sc fibre cubes and ad lib haylage from her previous owner who had no grazing (btw that pic was 1st day we got her) because shes now on grazing.  im taking my time with food because you can really tell shes got grass now little madam and its not been a week and a half yet. 

and thanks, she is very pretty and cant wait to get her going.
		
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Be sure to post photos!


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## Baggybreeches (4 July 2011)

Wagtail said:



			Same here, I use an all weather turnout during the winter.

Okay, then I am really puzzled. You feed 18 lbs (8 kg) of haylage a day to a 17.1 hh that has no other forage and is in medium/hard work? That is only one large net a day. Yet he looks stunning and has loads of energy?
		
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No at the moment he is in light/medium work (for him) as he doesn't really do 'let down' so his hard feed is reduced to 3lbs (a little more than 1/2 a round scoop twice a day) and his haylage is up to 18lbs, he is out for 12hrs a day but my field has very little grass because the ground is baked clay and we haven't anywhere to put them. They are all including him in perfect condition (although the other two could be described as tubby).


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## Baggybreeches (4 July 2011)

ThePinkPony said:



			she is used to  alot more than i give her actually.  ive taken her down from 2 sc chaff, 1 sc mix, 1 SB, 1.1/2 sc fibre cubes and ad lib haylage from her previous owner who had no grazing
		
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I am glad you have reduced her feed because grazing or no grazing that sound far too much for a youngster, and I would guess that there is little point in feeding so many fibre sources unless there is some kind of problem?


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## Wagtail (4 July 2011)

Baggybreeches said:



			No at the moment he is in light/medium work (for him) as he doesn't really do 'let down' so his hard feed is reduced to 3lbs (a little more than 1/2 a round scoop twice a day) and his haylage is up to 18lbs, he is out for 12hrs a day but my field has very little grass because the ground is baked clay and we haven't anywhere to put them. They are all including him in perfect condition (although the other two could be described as tubby).
		
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I don't think we are comparing like for like then. Mine are out on very poor grazing (clay soil and parched) and only on 6kg haylage a day at present so less than yours.  They are just nicely maintaining their condition. The grass is very sparse but as they are out 24/7 at the moment they are obviously getting SOME nourishment from it or they would lose weight. They have one hard feed a day. My TB has a scoop of Alfa A Half a scoop of fast fibre and half a scoop of high fibre cubes.


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## Cuffey (4 July 2011)

A racehorse ''fit to run'' is likely to weigh in at below 1000lbs so Baggybreeches will be feeding 2% of bodyweight of good quality food.

A ''leisure'' or ''show'' TB likely to weigh 1200lbs or more
Cuffey is 16hh TB/ID and was weighed once when competing at Moreton Morrell--484kg and pronounced very fit for the job--many were too fat for XC in hot weather.

There is a huge variation in quality of haylage/hay depending on many things, so anyone needing to feed larger quantities than 2-2.5% to maintain bodyweight is possibly buying a higher fibre but lower digestible energy product.

Last winter was the worst I have been through in over 30years in Scotland with temperatures well below -10C for weeks, horses frogs were freezing literally and my elderly Cushings pony did lose weight, despite rug and adlib hay and twice daily bucket feed. He has put the weight back.


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## ThePinkPony (4 July 2011)

her previous owner had lots of feeds and supplements for all her horses, i just dont think she needs it.  I want her weight up to start with lunging so she has something to turn into muscle, but she can live without a million different mixes until then. Ive only bought the single sacks of mix and cubes so its not to much of a shock, her coming to her new home and her new mum basically STARVING her!!! she is very food orientated obviously  Hopefully by then the grazing will be showing. Its good to know that people think im doing the right thing.


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## Enfys (4 July 2011)

Wagtail said:



			Same here, I use an all weather turnout during the winter.

Okay, then I am really puzzled. You feed 18 lbs (8 kg) of haylage a day to a 17.1 hh that has no other forage and is in medium/hard work? That is only one large net a day. Yet he looks stunning and has loads of energy?

I feed almost double to my 16.1 hh TB that is in light work (schooled/hacked 5 times a week) and he is not in the slightest overweight and lovely and calm but still plenty of energy when needed. Same is true of my two WB mares.

Something doesn't add up.
		
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Whatever happened to managing each horse _*as an individual *_then, how can anyone, without personal knowledge of a horse, say what is right and what is wrong for that particular horse? 

I have absolutely no idea how much forage my horses get...no grass for 5 months that's for sure, we don't even _see_ the ground for that long, they have round bales and just eat what they like, when they like. I'll be blowed if I am filling, weighing and hanging nets around paddocks for over 20 horses every day   If something looks as if it needs more then it gets grained accordingly and another blanket bunged on.


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## JessandCharlie (4 July 2011)

I have always been under the impression that a horse should lose condition over the winter? Feel free to correct me, I haven't read all the posts though I'm afraid 

J&C


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## Wagtail (4 July 2011)

Enfys said:



			Whatever happened to managing each horse _*as an individual *_then, how can anyone, without personal knowledge of a horse, say what is right and what is wrong for that particular horse?
		
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It turns out we have been talking at crossed purposes and actually BB is feeding more to her horse than I am to mine at present. That is why I queried it.


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## Wagtail (4 July 2011)

JessandCharlie said:



			I have always been under the impression that a horse should lose condition over the winter? Feel free to correct me, I haven't read all the posts though I'm afraid 

J&C
		
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I think that opinion is outdated and old fashioned (and also an excuse for SOME to skimp on feeding costs), but others will agree with it. I actually voted for the third option on the poll, in that I think that loss of condition is USUALLY down to poor management, but that there are exceptions.


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## JessandCharlie (4 July 2011)

It's difficult, but if a horse was feral, they would not doubt lose condition over the winter and put it back on over the summer, would it not? So is this not a natural way for it to kept? Just for the record, mine don't tend to lose much weight through the winter, they just go a bit squishy and lose muscle tone (can't ride much over winter with the light ) But, I won't worry too much if they do start to lose condition within reason 

J&C


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## PapaFrita (4 July 2011)

Wagtail said:



			BB is feeding more to her horse than I am to mine at present. That is why I queried it.
		
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Well now I'm very confused. I thought you were querying because you thought it was too little?


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## Girlracer (4 July 2011)

Generally i'd say poor management, but it can be difficult to work out the right management for a particular horse therefore un-intentionally the horse looses weight. 

But there's no excuse for a horse getting REALLY under weight, i havea 27yo tbx that's a very poor doer with hardly any teeth that can't eat hay and i manage to keep a decent covering on him!


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## *hic* (4 July 2011)

Yes, but it's part of her always twisting what she has already said in order to try to fool people that she knows what she's talking about.


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## honetpot (4 July 2011)

For those of you who can wade through it

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1939-1676.2010.0503.x/pdf

''In this context, it has been suggested that horses and ponies
evolutionarily adapted to survival in nutritionally
sparse environments are especially predisposed to obesity
and IR under modern management conditions in which
plentiful feed is available year round. For example, feral
and native pony breeds retain strong seasonality with respect
to appetite and body condition. Under feral
conditions these ponies gain weight during the summer
months when food is abundant before losing it again during
the winter.a Seasonal changes in insulin sensitivity also
may occur, reflecting alterations in food availability, physical
activity, and body condition. Season affected resting''
serum insulin concentrations in 1 study of obese mares,
with higher concentrations detected in December, compared
with September, October, and November.11 In the
context of domesticated equids experiencing a chronic
state of overnutrition, these seasonal changes in body condition
and insulin sensitivity may be replaced by
progressive obesity and IR with associated adverse health
consequences. ''
I know it is based on native ponies but as a alot of are horses are 'good doers and bred from native x's and draught cold blood types, so for some horses the pre spring diet is a good idea.


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## PapaFrita (4 July 2011)

jemima_too said:



			Yes, but it's part of her always twisting what she has already said in order to try to fool people that she knows what she's talking about.
		
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Ahh, a cunning ploy; "If you can't baffle them with brilliance, befuddle them with b________"


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## Serenity087 (4 July 2011)

Let me get this straight.

As Dorey drops condition over winter, I need to give her more hay (even though she doesn't eat everything she has...) - or better still, give her haylage (and therefore the runs!), then up her hard feed from a handful to a bucketfull and presumably put a grill over her stable door to stop her climbing out as she "wall of death"s round her stable with no where else to go...

... and if all else fails, I should pop another rug on so that by "warm" she's actually "dripping with sweat".

You know what, I'm gonna stuff Wagtails excellent advice on this one and stick to my horse dropping a couple of kilos in condition - for her own sake, as well as the safety of my fellow liveries!

What utter tosh!


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## *hic* (4 July 2011)

Serenity087 said:



			What utter tosh!
		
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Yup, I reckon that just about sums it up!


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## ChesnutsRoasting (4 July 2011)

For me, weight gain/loss in a horse depending on the season is a perfectly natural occurance. At the moment my mare is looking a bit a too good grazing a virtually bare paddock. Come the colder weather when the grass packs up, she'll lose some and look leaner ready to pick up again in the spring. I will not stuff her full of hard feed in a fruitless attempt to maintain her summer weight, it would not suit her disposition


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## showqa (4 July 2011)

Haven't read all the replies so sorry if I'm repeating.

I think the OP is perhaps generalising somewhat.

This winter I had nowhere to exercise my horses for 5 weeks - literally nowhere at all due to being in minus 17. Now, my one horse didn't lose any weight and in fact probably put on a bit, but lost fitness and muscle and so looked very flabby. My TB on the other hand, looked dreadful, again because she lost muscle and is very lean. I can assue the OP that every care and consideration was taken regarding her welfare, very well fed, ad lib quality hay and heavily rugged - but just like humans some simply don't do as well in the conditions as others and this is not always down to ignorance. They both look marvellous at the moment, and providing we can work all through the winter they will continue to do so. But if we have a repeat performance weather wise .....


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## tallyho! (4 July 2011)

ThePinkPony said:



			Well what about this. Her owner mentioned she thinks shes chubby.  i  would personally like her covered a bit better and will start working on the topline once shes been here another week. she was on no grass, hay and lots of hard feed. Now shes in a paddock with okay grazing and ive been giving her a scoop each of fibre cubes and coolmix and mchaff in the evening.

You cant see very well, but her ribs are visible and her hips protrude quite a bit.
		
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Nice... and indeed.. pink! You won't get topline on feed though... work work work...


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## touchstone (4 July 2011)

Wagtail said:



			Regarding the ulcers though, there is no way without scoping to say your horse does not have them. I could not guarantee ANY horse did not have them, especially as the majority of competition horses do. All I can do is try to minimise the risk and the biggest risk is standing without forage for any length of time.
		
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Although horses are meant to trickle feed, they don't need huge amounts to keep the gut healthy, just small amounts little and often.   Competition horses are usually fed quite large amounts of concentrates and very little forage which can be  a problem, although I think this  is changing nowadays. The stresses involved competing and travelling will be bound to have an effect  too I'd have thought.  The average horse will usually have no problems if the recommended fibre amounts are fed and restricted by small hole nets etc if it eats it too quickly.


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## Serenity087 (4 July 2011)

I reckon the OP has Bayer models... explains why she's never had one lose condition...


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## siennamum (4 July 2011)

Wagtail said:



			The problem with weight fluctuating so much between summer and winter is because losing weight over winter actually slows the metabolism down. Then the weight just piles on in the summer when they go onto the grass. The problem therefore only gets worse. People doubting this only have to read the studies on people who crash diet. Slimming lowers your metabolism. You need less food then to maintain your weight. It is self defeating. If a person wants to maintain a healthy weight then losing weight for half the year and then quickly gaining it is not the way to do it. The same is true for any animal. When food reduces and the body loses weight, the metabolism slows. So I would argue that weight loss during the winter will actually make a horse gain weight FASTER in the spring.
		
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It's this kind of statement which does my head in.

You have absolutely no real scientific basis for your opinions, just half baked Bull ***t!! A bit like your "supplements damage horses digestive systems", theory. You have made this stuff up, but are determinedly positing yourself as an expert on every subject.


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## touchstone (4 July 2011)

Hmm, but if  the horse's metabolism is slowing down then surely  he needs less food?

It actually speeds up in winter anyway:-

"Weight Building After Winter
Story by Eleanor Kellon, VMD

If you found a skinny horse under that winter hair coat this spring, here's why and what to do about it.


As the forsythia blooms and your horse begins to shed his winter coat, you may find that there's not as much horse left underneath. Your horse's wintertime metabolic changes can burn more calories, causing winter weight loss, as seen here.

Horses have a remarkable ability to withstand winter weather. But wintertime can sometimes exact a price on horses in terms of calories. If you found there wasn't as much horse left underneath that thick winter coat when your horse shed out this spring, you're not alone.

Winter Metabolism
Your horse's body uses several different strategies to keep warm in the winter. His hair coat of course is a big part of it, but some breeds are better at growing the dense, insulating coats than others. Good coat or not, when it gets very cold, or your horse gets wet, he needs other ways to generate heat.

To avoid heat losses through the skin, blood flow to the legs decreases. Heat generated by the organisms fermenting fibrous foods in the horse's large intestine helps warm from the inside out. But that's not all. The horse's metabolism also changes.

Levels of active thyroid hormone normally increase in the winter. This is a metabolic strategy found in many species. This makes your horse burn his feed more quickly-"fast metabolism"-and also makes the burning of feeds less efficient in producing energy for the cells. When energy production is less efficient, more of your horse's calories are lost as heat, which helps keep your horse warm. As essential as this extra warmth is, it also means fewer calories are available to maintain weight.

If you understand your horse's winter metabolism, then it'll make sense when you find your horse is a little lighter in the spring. As the weather warms up, his metabolism will return to normal. In many cases, you don't really have to "do" anything for your horse to gain back the weight he lost over the winter. If the diet you were feeding him all winter had kept him at a good weight the prior summer and fall, he'll return to that quickly with no change in feeding."


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## tallyho! (4 July 2011)

A HORSES metabolism is NOTHING like a HUMANS!!

Wagtail, what ARE you going on about woman???


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## Fun Foals (4 July 2011)

A little condition/weight loss is not a bad thing. For breading reasons horses get in foal better when putting on weight so are better comeing out of winter abit leaner. 

Plus every horse is different!

I know a tb stallion that you can give him 5 or 6 scopes of stallion feed (split between 4 meals) a day plus haylege in the day and out at night and he will eat it. Other times you put more than a scoop in at a time and it will overface him. He just grazes on his feed he is confident that it will be there when he goes back to it, so he choses what is eats,when he eats and how much. 
Others will just eat whatever you put infront of them however much it is. Which proves you got to treat them differently and one rule doesnt work for everyone. 

In moderation abit of loss is not a bad thing.


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## AMW (4 July 2011)

native ponies have evolved to put weight on in the summer on good grass and lose some over the winter.
By keeping a pony in constant condition especially natives makes them more susceptible to EMS.
This especially applies to natives living out.
My ponies lose weight over winter, they need to, and they are happy healthy & well.

I am sure the same applies to horses 

obviously there is a difference between losing a summer belly and becoming emaciated


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## JessandCharlie (4 July 2011)

Odd, isn't it; when I bought my older chap a year ago, his old owner said he wasn't the easiest to keep weight on, and got a scoop of A&P Calm and Condition, a scoop of Alfa-A and oil, plus comp mix depending on how pingy I wanted him, twice a day. Plus turnout or hay if he was in.

He is currently having no hard feed, and turned out 24/7 on ok, but by no means good grazing (albeit a bit better after the rain) He is worked 5/6 days a week for around an hour at a time, either schooling quite hard, or hacking with a lot of trotting and cantering, all on hills (not flat around here ) 

To me, he is still a bit too round, he's not overweight per se, but on the upper end of healthy. 

I also have a 4yo TB living on the same grazing, with a stubbs scoop of high fibre nuts and Equine America More Muscle a day. He's worked every other day, sometimes more, for 40mins-1hr schooling or hacking and looks super imo.

Then again, I would be pretty happy with the horse PinkPony showed, I like she's lovely! Needs more muscle, but I wouldn't personally put more fat on her. But that's me, and tbh, so long as the horse isn't in any danger, each to their own 

J&C


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## Fii (4 July 2011)

Pinkpony- i would rather see a four yr old looking like that, then have a lot of weight stacked on, she will look great when in work and muscled up!
 For the record, my ponies loose weight in winter, they are on rough grazing ALL year round , they onley get fed hay, if it snows. Because they are on such a large acerage and have such a diverse forage they actually live very well. If one was to drop weight over what i consider good, then i would move it in with the horses for hay.
 My horses are on over nine acres (three of them) I like them to drop a bit of weight also through the winter, it would be a wast of time to start feeding them hay to early in the winter, as they wont eat it while the grass is still under them.
Just to add all out 24/7, except two who are lami prone , in summer they have axcess to the yard.


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## Dolcé (4 July 2011)

It is quite scary really, I really hope that nobody reads the rubbish that OP is spouting as if it is gospel and follows her advice.  I would like to make clear though that our deliberate allowing of ours to drop weight is nothing to do with 'skimping' on feed costs over winter, and I found that comment quite offensive.  You can carry on feeding your horses as much as you want and I, along with many others I am sure, will completely ignore the very wrong advice that you are giving and continue to do the right thing by ours!


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## PapaFrita (4 July 2011)

bakedbean said:



			some kind of record i feel...its taken 11 pages this time for the OP to start backtracking/twisting to confuse the issue, just incase someone cottons on to the fact that actually, she has no idea whatsoever what she is talking about..usually she changes tack long before now..

Click to expand...

Well, TBF, I only got back from work (and therefore reading) when the thread had got to 11 pages...


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## Pearlsasinger (4 July 2011)

hch4971 said:



			It is quite scary really, I really hope that nobody reads the rubbish that OP is spouting as if it is gospel and follows her advice.  I would like to make clear though that our deliberate allowing of ours to drop weight is nothing to do with 'skimping' on feed costs over winter, and I found that comment quite offensive.  You can carry on feeding your horses as much as you want and I, along with many others I am sure, will completely ignore the very wrong advice that you are giving and continue to do the right thing by ours!
		
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I quite agree, it is indeed scary.
We will continue to allow ours to drop weight over the winter (in fact we were concerned this Spring, after the first winter having to fed haylage that they were too fat going into spring).
Those of us who know what we are doing and understand how horses digestive systems/metabolism work will indeed ignore the incorrect advice.
I do like the Pink Pony (we used to have 2 pink horses - the Pink Pair) but I certainly wouldn't be feeding it up.  That photo doesn't show its ribs.  Admittedly it needs muscle but contrary to popular belief you cannot turn fat into muscle.


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## brighteyes (4 July 2011)

Wagtail said:



			Of course wild horses lose weight in the winter. That is because the grass loses its nutrients and there is not so much food around generally. However, we are keeping domestic horses that we expect to work for us and we can provide them with the forage needed so they do not drop weight. Just because animals drop weight in the wild, or even starve, does not mean that is how we should manage them.

Do you also cut down your dogs food in the winter? As if he was in the wild he would drop lots of weight as food would be scarce.
		
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Not starve, but since natives have a metabolism which adjusts over the winter to cater (ha ha) for a shortage/reduction in food, I suggest it is neglect NOT factoring this into our management.

And yes, I remember you accusing my mare's previous owner of neglect on this very issue.  And I still disagree.


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## StormyMoments (4 July 2011)

my ISH looses weight in the winter he is usually rugged in a heavy weight with a neck and a medium and no he is not hot... he is fed 30lbs of haylage at night and adlib in the field he is stabled at night and is fed a large hard feed with spedibeet, chaff, build up and conditioning mix, he has come though the winter ribby he is in full work and i always get him fatter at the end of summer so i have a chance to keep his weight on.. if im doing something wrong please tell me as he costs so much to keep at a good weight...


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## Baggybreeches (4 July 2011)

Just out of interest this is what a class a good condition for a large TB who leads an active life hacking during the summer and hunting/pointing during the winter.
https://www.facebook.com/#!/photo.p...1446212568293.56012.1622522214&type=1&theater

https://www.facebook.com/#!/photo.p...1446212568293.56012.1622522214&type=1&theater


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## martlin (4 July 2011)

Baggybreeches said:



			Just out of interest this is what a class a good condition for a large TB who leads an active life hacking during the summer and hunting/pointing during the winter.
https://www.facebook.com/#!/photo.p...1446212568293.56012.1622522214&type=1&theater

https://www.facebook.com/#!/photo.p...1446212568293.56012.1622522214&type=1&theater

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He looks rather nice and shiny  but regardless of that, he can't put any weight on or he won't fit through that door


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## Baggybreeches (4 July 2011)

martlin said:



			He looks rather nice and shiny  but regardless of that, he can't put any weight on or he won't fit through that door  

Click to expand...

Oh but he does fit through that door! That is the feed room, my OH was agenius when planning the stable layout!
And he doesn't need a key he has his own slave who opens the door for him


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## martlin (4 July 2011)

Baggybreeches said:



			Oh but he does fit through that door! That is the feed room, my OH was agenius when planning the stable layout!
And he doesn't need a key he has his own slave who opens the door for him 

Click to expand...

He does now, but if you keep feeding him such vast quantities of food, he soon won't


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## Baggybreeches (4 July 2011)

bakedbean said:



			Liar.
what do you want a feed room far as you obviously dont feed him.
		
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Shhh nobody else spotted that the blue bucket was empty!


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## rubysmum (4 July 2011)

obs i havnt been rideing since 1862 or owned 2,00 horses - so prob not really qualifed to post here - but my 21 yr old mare is still alive - so will throw my thought in.............
any horse i have owned has always lost an element of condition in the winter - less turnout & that pesky thing called work [ mine not theirs]  equals far less work = less muscle tone + less fitness - so i suspect that most hobby riders' horses have something similair
my mare who now lives out 24/7 generally drops some weight by the end of winter - but in my obs limited experience - this gives my some weight control slack when the much richer spring grass comes through - the only year this didnt happen [ lush grazing & hay bale feeders in the field] - she was obese within a couple of weeks of the spring growth, giving me a much trickier management issue than a horse coming out of winter a little lean


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## Wagtail (4 July 2011)

touchstone said:



			Although horses are meant to trickle feed, they don't need huge amounts to keep the gut healthy, just small amounts little and often.   Competition horses are usually fed quite large amounts of concentrates and very little forage which can be  a problem, although I think this  is changing nowadays. The stresses involved competing and travelling will be bound to have an effect  too I'd have thought.  The average horse will usually have no problems if the recommended fibre amounts are fed and restricted by small hole nets etc if it eats it too quickly.
		
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Agree with that.


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## Wagtail (4 July 2011)

jemima_too said:



			Yes, but it's part of her always twisting what she has already said in order to try to fool people that she knows what she's talking about.
		
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After seeing your previous post to Pink Pony and now this one, I have identified you as a troll and you are now on 'ignore', so forgive me if I do not acknowledge any more of your posts.


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## Wagtail (4 July 2011)

PapaFrita said:



			Well now I'm very confused. I thought you were querying because you thought it was too little?
		
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No,  I thought she was describing her winter regime. Now I find out that she is talking about her current regime where her horse (who she feeds 18lbs of haylage a day to) is out on pasture. She actually is feeding more than I am during this time which makes absolute sense considering her horse is both larger than mine and in harder work.

In a nutshell, BB was describing her current (summer feeding) and I was talking about my winter feeding (as this was what my post was about -winter). Hence the confusion.


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## Wagtail (4 July 2011)

bakedbean said:



			some kind of record i feel...its taken 11 pages this time for the OP to start backtracking/twisting to confuse the issue, just incase someone cottons on to the fact that actually, she has no idea whatsoever what she is talking about..usually she changes tack long before now..

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*yawn* you can do better than that Baked, I know you can


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## Wagtail (4 July 2011)

Serenity087 said:



			Let me get this straight.

As Dorey drops condition over winter, I need to give her more hay (even though she doesn't eat everything she has...) - or better still, give her haylage (and therefore the runs!), then up her hard feed from a handful to a bucketfull and presumably put a grill over her stable door to stop her climbing out as she "wall of death"s round her stable with no where else to go...

... and if all else fails, I should pop another rug on so that by "warm" she's actually "dripping with sweat".

You know what, I'm gonna stuff Wagtails excellent advice on this one and stick to my horse dropping a couple of kilos in condition - for her own sake, as well as the safety of my fellow liveries!

What utter tosh!
		
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Excuses...shoestring...


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## Holly Hocks (4 July 2011)

I've two thoughts here.
My elderly TB gelding went into winter looking fine - a bit chubby.  I kept him fed through winter - he had turnout, ad lib haylage and two feeds a day.  He looked better through winter than he has ever looked.  But in hindsight I wish I hadn't fed him quite so well.  He went into Spring looking too well and is now rather obese...so this winter I will be letting him lose a bit as I don't think it's good for him to be as fat as he is right now..


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## Wagtail (4 July 2011)

hch4971 said:



			It is quite scary really, I really hope that nobody reads the rubbish that OP is spouting as if it is gospel and follows her advice.  I would like to make clear though that our deliberate allowing of ours to drop weight is nothing to do with 'skimping' on feed costs over winter, and I found that comment quite offensive.  You can carry on feeding your horses as much as you want and I, along with many others I am sure, will completely ignore the very wrong advice that you are giving and continue to do the right thing by ours!
		
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Strange how the majority have voted for the third option (as I have) then isn't it? That it is usually down to bad management with a FEW exceptions? I think I have obviously touched a few nerves. I simply offer my opinion as an option. Of course you are free to do what you like, without a conscience if you know you are right. Right? but I think a few people here protest too much.


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## Baggybreeches (4 July 2011)

Wagtail said:



			No,  I thought she was describing her winter regime. Now I find out that she is talking about her current regime where her horse (who she feeds 18lbs of haylage a day to) is out on pasture. She actually is feeding more than I am during this time which makes absolute sense considering her horse is both larger than mine and in harder work.

In a nutshell, BB was describing her current (summer feeding) and I was talking about my winter feeding (as this was what my post was about -winter). Hence the confusion.
		
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I initially described my winter rations because you were talking about winter? I feed more haylage in the summer and my horses are turned out but there is more clay than grass in my field. Horses don't need oodles of lush grass that is what is wrong with the poor ponies that are being kiiled with kindness because of their lovely lush green fields


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## *hic* (4 July 2011)

Wow, I can post what I want and imagine Wagtail with her fingers in her ears chanting "LA LA LA I can't hear you".


Except of course you just had to look to see what I'd posted, didn't you Wagtail.

Oh and whilst you're looking, do check up on the definition of a troll and then work out WHY I posted what I did to the Pink Pony.


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## Wagtail (4 July 2011)

StormyMoments said:



			my ISH looses weight in the winter he is usually rugged in a heavy weight with a neck and a medium and no he is not hot... he is fed 30lbs of haylage at night and adlib in the field he is stabled at night and is fed a large hard feed with spedibeet, chaff, build up and conditioning mix, he has come though the winter ribby he is in full work and i always get him fatter at the end of summer so i have a chance to keep his weight on.. if im doing something wrong please tell me as he costs so much to keep at a good weight...
		
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Which is why I voted for option 3 - there ARE some exceptions. You obviously have no management issues at all IMO.


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## Wagtail (4 July 2011)

Baggybreeches said:



			Just out of interest this is what a class a good condition for a large TB who leads an active life hacking during the summer and hunting/pointing during the winter.
https://www.facebook.com/#!/photo.p...1446212568293.56012.1622522214&type=1&theater

https://www.facebook.com/#!/photo.p...1446212568293.56012.1622522214&type=1&theater

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Yep, lovely. But BB do you let him drop weight in the winter? He looks fabulous in those photos.


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## Wagtail (4 July 2011)

StormyMoments said:



			my ISH looses weight in the winter he is usually rugged in a heavy weight with a neck and a medium and no he is not hot... he is fed 30lbs of haylage at night and adlib in the field he is stabled at night and is fed a large hard feed with spedibeet, chaff, build up and conditioning mix, he has come though the winter ribby he is in full work and i always get him fatter at the end of summer so i have a chance to keep his weight on.. if im doing something wrong please tell me as he costs so much to keep at a good weight...
		
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As I said I voted option 3. I accept that there are some exceptions. It seems you are doing all you can to keep him in good condition. It is the people who don't feed enough hay (when it's needed) during the winter that I have issue with.


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## Wagtail (4 July 2011)

Holly Hocks said:



			I've two thoughts here.
My elderly TB gelding went into winter looking fine - a bit chubby.  I kept him fed through winter - he had turnout, ad lib haylage and two feeds a day.  He looked better through winter than he has ever looked.  But in hindsight I wish I hadn't fed him quite so well.  He went into Spring looking too well and is now rather obese...so this winter I will be letting him lose a bit as I don't think it's good for him to be as fat as he is right now..
		
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It's true. It's a juggling act! Trouble is if they get too thin (which I doubt your boy will) their metabolism will get lower. Then they need less food to get fat again. Just like us humans.


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## Dolcé (4 July 2011)

Wagtail said:



			Strange how the majority have voted for the third option (as I have) then isn't it? That it is usually down to bad management with a FEW exceptions? I think I have obviously touched a few nerves. I simply offer my opinion as an option. Of course you are free to do what you like, without a conscience if you know you are right. Right? but I think a few people here protest too much.
		
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I know I am right where my horses are concerned!  Funnily enough my vet agrees with me, especially regarding the management of laminitis and of course the 'disappearing' sweet itch. You haven't touched a nerve as such, it just annoys me that you preach all your rubbish and then, because someone disagrees with you, try to infer it is about saving money rather than a concious decision.  Perhaps the wording of your poll was deliberate to try and get people to 'agree' with your point of view on that, I don't believe I have seen one single post on this thread that actually agrees with the rubbish you are coming out with.  When you are spouting your 'CV', I can assure you that mine is as, if not more than, impressive regarding my experience with horses, I have also studied equine nutrition just to ensure I was doing the right thing by my animals.  You really are the most narrow minded person, it is one thing to have your opinion but quite another to sit there and type the rubbish you are coming out with as though you know what you are talking about and as if anyone who doesn't agree is obviously neglecting their animals.  I don't think anyone protests too much, you should just accept that you don't know it all and that there are better qualified people than yourself to give information on feeding over winter.


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## Wagtail (4 July 2011)

Baggybreeches said:



			I initially described my winter rations because you were talking about winter? I feed more haylage in the summer and my horses are turned out but there is more clay than grass in my field. Horses don't need oodles of lush grass that is what is wrong with the poor ponies that are being kiiled with kindness because of their lovely lush green fields
		
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Baggy, when have I ever said horses should be on oodles of lush grass? My issue is with people who allow their horses to lose condition over winter to save money. If you do not do that then why the *** are we argueing?


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## Wagtail (4 July 2011)

hch4971 said:



			I know I am right where my horses are concerned!  Funnily enough my vet agrees with me, especially regarding the management of laminitis and of course the 'disappearing' sweet itch. You haven't touched a nerve as such, it just annoys me that you preach all your rubbish and then, because someone disagrees with you, try to infer it is about saving money rather than a concious decision.  Perhaps the wording of your poll was deliberate to try and get people to 'agree' with your point of view on that, I don't believe I have seen one single post on this thread that actually agrees with the rubbish you are coming out with.  When you are spouting your 'CV', I can assure you that mine is as, if not more than, impressive regarding my experience with horses, I have also studied equine nutrition just to ensure I was doing the right thing by my animals.  You really are the most narrow minded person, it is one thing to have your opinion but quite another to sit there and type the rubbish you are coming out with as though you know what you are talking about and as if anyone who doesn't agree is obviously neglecting their animals.  I don't think anyone protests too much, you should just accept that you don't know it all and that there are better qualified people than yourself to give information on feeding over winter.
		
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You think maintaining a sleek healthy condition through the winter (and summer) is rubbish?


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## miss_bird (4 July 2011)

Well wagtail by your assumptions i will be a person that starves my horses to save money
As 2 winters ago i was dumping round bales of haylage out in th fields and getting through 18 bales a week, and along with hard feed, cant say any of the horse came out the winter looking fab but not skinny either and were all in lovely warm H/W rugs (first winter for the horses in this country)
So last winter i cut back on the haylage and hard feed oh yeah and half of them not rugged and a couple in L/W and do you know what they all came out the winter better than the year before.
So yes i cut my bills prob in half and still did not have 20 horses dead from starvation, and last years was a worse winter


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## Dolcé (4 July 2011)

Wagtail said:



			Baggy, when have I ever said horses should be on oodles of lush grass? My issue is with people who allow their horses to lose condition over winter to save money. If you do not do that then why the *** are we argueing?
		
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Funnily enough you don't mention feed bills (as in halving your own) until your post 23 and don't mention that being the reason for people allowing their horses to lose weight until your post 33.  I think you are changing the goal posts as you go along!


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## LizzyandToddy (4 July 2011)

I have a horse who hunt's 3 days a week in the winter, only gets a blanket clip, is in for all but 6 hours turnout daily. He has unlimited hayledge out and in, has 3 feeds a day and even still it is a fight to keep the weight on him despite being rugged up to the hilt. So yes I do disagree.


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## Dolcé (4 July 2011)

Wagtail said:



			You think maintaining a sleek healthy condition through the winter (and summer) is rubbish?
		
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I think the duff information that you are spouting is rubbish!  You should at least do a bit of research and get some links up here to back up what you are saying, I suspect you would have difficulty finding any!


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## Maesfen (4 July 2011)

hch4971 said:



			I think the duff information that you are spouting is rubbish!  You should at least do a bit of research and get some links up here to back up what you are saying, I suspect you would have difficulty finding any!
		
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Like button please.


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## Dolcé (4 July 2011)

miss_bird said:



			Well wagtail by your assumptions i will be a person that starves my horses to save money
As 2 winters ago i was dumping round bales of haylage out in th fields and getting through 18 bales a week, and along with hard feed, cant say any of the horse came out the winter looking fab but not skinny either and were all in lovely warm H/W rugs (first winter for the horses in this country)
So last winter i cut back on the haylage and hard feed oh yeah and half of them not rugged and a couple in L/W and do you know what they all came out the winter better than the year before.
So yes i cut my bills prob in half and still did not have 20 horses dead from starvation, and last years was a worse winter
		
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Christ, and I thought we had it bad feeding 14!  Funnily enough ours came out of this one better too, on the same haylage but forage based hard feed for the horses rather than the cereal based OH insisted on using before we converted him!  We also only had the TB and warmbloods rugged for the whole winter too.


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## YorksG (4 July 2011)

So when did this become about saving money? The original (incorrect premise) was that horses should not follow the natural pattern of weight loss which they have evolved, to accomodate the changing calorific content of their natural feed. Having recently had some quite in depth conversations with vet and farrier about feeding, the increasing incidence of lamminitis in winter etc, I am very concerned that someone is setting themselves up as an expert and then posting absolute rubbish. The suggestion that the metabolism of the horse is the same as that of a human, is very concerning. The digestive systems of the two animals are not the same, one being a herbivore and the other being an omnivore, something which the OP went on at length about in a different thread.


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## Dolcé (5 July 2011)

Wagtail said:



			It's true. It's a juggling act! Trouble is if they get too thin (which I doubt your boy will) their metabolism will get lower. Then they need less food to get fat again. Just like us humans.
		
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I really feel the need to put you right on this as it is the second time you have said it and you obviously don't really understand it!  A horse's metabolism slows down naturally in cold weather so that it can store fatty tissue under the skin to keep it warm rather than slowing because it has lost weight.  If a horse is not being fed enough forage to produce enough heat from the hind gut to keep it warm then it will shiver and this will SPEED UP the metabolic rate to create warmth for the horse, causing weight loss!  A thin horse will feel the cold more than a fatter one so will have a faster metabolic rate than the fatter one.  Stop quoting rubbish!


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## miss_bird (5 July 2011)

hch4971 said:



			I really feel the need to put you right on this as it is the second time you have said it and you obviously don't really understand it!  A horse's metabolism slows down naturally in cold weather so that it can store fatty tissue under the skin to keep it warm rather than slowing because it has lost weight.  If a horse is not being fed enough forage to produce enough heat from the hind gut to keep it warm then it will shiver and this will SPEED UP the metabolic rate to create warmth for the horse, causing weight loss!  A thin horse will feel the cold more than a fatter one so will have a faster metabolic rate than the fatter one.  Stop quoting rubbish!
		
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hch i like that, simple, straight to the point and CORRECT rather than a lot of the rubbish that has been put in this thread


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## Bop! (5 July 2011)

I have a good do-er.

I could feed him the "recommended" amount during the winter so he maintains his "ideal" body weight all winter.  Then restrict his grazing all summer, meaning he has to spend the majority of the time alone (either in a taped off section of the field or in his stable).  This way he would maintain the same condition all year round.

Instead, I choose to feed him so that he looses weight in the winter and comes into spring looking lean, ribs being easily felt and sometimes even showing .  He spends the summer with his friends out 24hrs, on reasonable but not good grazing, getting a little fatter week by week and being ridden daily to keep him fit (and cause we both quite like it really). He goes into the winter looking a little too round but not obese.

Have tried it the other way (lack of knowledge when I first got him many moons ago) and I know which way we both prefer .  Nothing to do with economics, just what appears to be best for MY horse.

Interestingly, he doesn't seem to get fatter and fatter each summer as you suggest he should?


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## Dolcé (5 July 2011)

Bop! said:



			I have a good do-er.
Interestingly, he doesn't seem to get fatter and fatter each summer as you suggest he should?
		
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(whispers) That's because Wagtail didn't really understand how the metabolism of a horse works, hopefully that has now been remedied!!


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## Bop! (5 July 2011)

hch4971 said:



			(whispers) That's because Wagtail didn't really understand how the metabolism of a horse works, hopefully that has now been remedied!!

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Ahh, right, thought I had some sort of enigma horse for a minute there


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## fidleyspromise (5 July 2011)

I've learned that my ponies know what's best for them.
2 winters ago I put haynets out to highland in field (ground was frozen and covered in snow so no grass) and she barely went through one (6kg) haynet in a 24 hour period.  She came out of winter fatter than she went in but I couldn't give her any less hay.  I gave her what she would eat and there was some hay left.  I gradually managed to get her up to one a half haynets max occassionally.

Unlimited good quality hay, no rugs except for the absolute harshest days/nights and out 24/7 has served me well with her.    

I do prefer to see a little weight drop off in winter and then in summer rather than cut their grazing down and therefore the amount of space for them to move about in, they can stay in each paddock with the grass.


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## Wagtail (5 July 2011)

hch4971 said:



			Funnily enough you don't mention feed bills (as in halving your own) until your post 23 and don't mention that being the reason for people allowing their horses to lose weight until your post 33.  I think you are changing the goal posts as you go along!
		
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No, I am not. This thread was always aimed at all the people who use 'horses are meant to lose condition over winter' as an excuse not to feed horses that need it. (Hence the reference to 'poor management'). I wanted to hear all the excuses first, as who knows, it may not have been the case. And indeed there are a few exceptions and very good reasons why some people cannot keep the weight on their horses in winter. All in all an interesting discussion.

There really is no need for people to get ratty if they know they are doing the right thing. After all, in horses, we all differ in our opinions.


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## Serenity087 (5 July 2011)

Wagtail said:



			Excuses...shoestring...
		
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Huh?  I have never ever in my life cut corners as far as my horses feed is concerned!

Seriously, once she even had a bucket of topline, sugarbeet and chaff for breakfast lunch and dinner because she was so thin (that WAS when I bought her mind...).

Funnily enough she turned psycho and has never, ever had SB again.

Dorey thrives on a handful of food.  She had half a scoop when she was in work but isn't now and it would be dangerous to keep that up - she went out for a walk yesterday in a bridle and STILL did a rather alarming stallion impression down the middle of the road!

My issue with your so called advice is that to keep weight on her over winter, I would need to substiture what she doesn't eat calorie wise in hay (because she's stuffed full of high fibre low energy feed) with cereals - which would turn her phsyco.
You also suggest she would be underrugged as I physically couldn't feed her any more roughage, but any more rugs and she'd be sweating.

You are showing a basic lack of understanding of the basic principle of balancing requirement and appitite.  Despite what even your most dogged shetland will insist, horses DO have a limit.  Throwing poor hay (because by midwinter, it is usually the poorer stuff) and poor grazing at an animal with a limitited appitite will not result in it keeping weight on - it will not eat it.
To balance, an overabundance of cereals must be fed to correct which can only result in digestive upsets (colic) and nutritional disorders (laminitus).  

Feeding cows "Wagtail Style" can be fatal, in fact.

Now my CV includes a degree in animal science which includes modules in animal nutrition.  So I don't really care how many model ponies you've collected on your window sill in 30 years, or whatever it is, I actually UNDERSTAND the BASIC PRINCIPLE of why my horse drops weight in winter.

And, as it happens, she looked bloody good despite it!!!


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## Wagtail (5 July 2011)

miss_bird said:



			Well wagtail by your assumptions i will be a person that starves my horses to save money
As 2 winters ago i was dumping round bales of haylage out in th fields and getting through 18 bales a week, and along with hard feed, cant say any of the horse came out the winter looking fab but not skinny either and were all in lovely warm H/W rugs (first winter for the horses in this country)
So last winter i cut back on the haylage and hard feed oh yeah and half of them not rugged and a couple in L/W and do you know what they all came out the winter better than the year before.
So yes i cut my bills prob in half and still did not have 20 horses dead from starvation, and last years was a worse winter
		
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Your horses did not drop condition because of your management if they came out of winter better than when you fed them more. Though this is, indeed a strange one. Any ideas why this was the case?


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## Serenity087 (5 July 2011)

And, if it makes you feel any stupider than you already do right now, I will dig out the mathematical equations to show you how you achieve an animals energy requirement taking into account the energy supplied by roughage and cereals limited by the appitite of the animal...

You cannot give an animal limiteless energy in roughage.  It just doesn't fit in there!


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## Wagtail (5 July 2011)

hch4971 said:



			I think the duff information that you are spouting is rubbish!  You should at least do a bit of research and get some links up here to back up what you are saying, I suspect you would have difficulty finding any!
		
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Which bit of information is rubbish?


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## Wagtail (5 July 2011)

YorksG said:



			The suggestion that the metabolism of the horse is the same as that of a human, is very concerning. The digestive systems of the two animals are not the same, one being a herbivore and the other being an omnivore, something which the OP went on at length about in a different thread.
		
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All animals start to shut down their metabolism when underfed. It is part of survival. A quick search regarding horses specifically came up with this:

http://en.allexperts.com/q/Horses-Diet-Nutrition-3330/2009/10/underwight-standardbred.htm

There are more but I really can't be bothered when people are so set in their ways.


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## Wagtail (5 July 2011)

Serenity087 said:



			Huh?  I have never ever in my life cut corners as far as my horses feed is concerned!

Seriously, once she even had a bucket of topline, sugarbeet and chaff for breakfast lunch and dinner because she was so thin (that WAS when I bought her mind...).

Funnily enough she turned psycho and has never, ever had SB again.

Dorey thrives on a handful of food.  She had half a scoop when she was in work but isn't now and it would be dangerous to keep that up - she went out for a walk yesterday in a bridle and STILL did a rather alarming stallion impression down the middle of the road!

My issue with your so called advice is that to keep weight on her over winter, I would need to substiture what she doesn't eat calorie wise in hay (because she's stuffed full of high fibre low energy feed) with cereals - which would turn her phsyco.
You also suggest she would be underrugged as I physically couldn't feed her any more roughage, but any more rugs and she'd be sweating.

You are showing a basic lack of understanding of the basic principle of balancing requirement and appitite.  Despite what even your most dogged shetland will insist, horses DO have a limit.  Throwing poor hay (because by midwinter, it is usually the poorer stuff) and poor grazing at an animal with a limitited appitite will not result in it keeping weight on - it will not eat it.
To balance, an overabundance of cereals must be fed to correct which can only result in digestive upsets (colic) and nutritional disorders (laminitus).  

Feeding cows "Wagtail Style" can be fatal, in fact.

Now my CV includes a degree in animal science which includes modules in animal nutrition.  So I don't really care how many model ponies you've collected on your window sill in 30 years, or whatever it is, I actually UNDERSTAND the BASIC PRINCIPLE of why my horse drops weight in winter.

And, as it happens, she looked bloody good despite it!!!
		
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You are talking about one of your horses (therefore an exception) not all of them. I have already said many times that there are exceptions to this. If your horse's generally do not lose weight over winter, then why are you supporting weight loss for horses over winter?

FYI I hate cereals for horses too and only feed them on request of the owners. Mine get none.


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## rhino (5 July 2011)

Wagtail said:



			There are more but I really can't be bothered when people are so set in their ways.
		
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People aren't set in their ways at all! I would love to see some more articles, although would prefer some peer reviewed journal articles if possible.

I have a couple of biochem degrees and am finding this fascinating


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## Wagtail (5 July 2011)

rhino said:



			People aren't set in their ways at all! I would love to see some more articles, although would prefer some peer reviewed journal articles if possible.

I have a couple of biochem degrees and am finding this fascinating 

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Great! I am going to search for some peer reviewed studies then. In the meantime this is an interesting artical in the New Zealand Journal of Agricultural that supports my opinion that metabolic rates decrease when horses are underfed:

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=...&resnum=5&ved=0CDcQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q&f=false

And this is very interesting regarding the heating qualities of various forages and feeds, and also touches on the effects of feed on metabolic rate:
http://www.mitavite.com.au/mitavite06/PDF/Nutritional Information PDF/Vet notes/Winter Feeding.pdf


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## ThePinkPony (5 July 2011)

In general any animal, or humans, metabolic rate decreases when they are underfed. My metabolism is at a snails rate from years of eating disorders so i can vouch for that bad boy.

And i have to agree, they may not be horses but during winter all our dogs get fed more but dont put on any weight, usually they come out of winter looking a tad on the lean side, when they spend most of summer just being walked and then when autumn starts they go into the full days work. Our dogs are more likely to drop weight in summer, especially in this heat weirdly.


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## siennamum (5 July 2011)

I didn't realise we were talking about horses which are going into starvation mode. I read your premise as that if horses lose condition over Winter it is because the owners are trying to cut costs by not feeding them.

1. It is healthy & natural for horses to have faster metabolisms in Winter because they are burning more rougage to assist in keeping warm. Many owners try to keep their horses as naturally as possible and see this as normal.

2. Some owners will in fact use this natural weight loss as a means of buffering against the sudden arrival of Spring grass and the impact that may have on the horses waistline.

3. These horses are in great condition and well cared for, no expense is spared in their management BUT their condition does fluctuate over the year.

Do you agree with any of the above Wagtail or do you think these practices are bad management?


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## Dolcé (5 July 2011)

siennamum said:



			I didn't realise we were talking about horses which are going into starvation mode. I read your premise as that if horses lose condition over Winter it is because the owners are trying to cut costs by not feeding them.

1. It is healthy & natural for horses to have faster metabolisms in Winter because they are burning more rougage to assist in keeping warm. Many owners try to keep their horses as naturally as possible and see this as normal.

2. Some owners will in fact use this natural weight loss as a means of buffering against the sudden arrival of Spring grass and the impact that may have on the horses waistline.

3. These horses are in great condition and well cared for, no expense is spared in their management BUT their condition does fluctuate over the year.

Do you agree with any of the above Wagtail or do you think these practices are bad management?
		
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I didn't realise we were talking about animals in starvation mode either (which totally changes things), as I said, the goal posts are changing constantly!  I think there is a huge difference between owners allowing their horses to drop weight over winter and allowing their horses to starve.  If we are talking starvation then that should have been made clear from the start and would have changed the results of the poll completely, as would mentioning horses dropping weight because the owners are too tight to feed their horses properly.  The poll is completely pointless as it is obviously worded incorrectly and has misled people as to what the actual question refers to!


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## touchstone (5 July 2011)

The article in the first link you've posted Wagtail is from 1959, I think that more recent articles would be more relevant and the second confirms that metabolic rate speeds up in colder underfed horses as the roughage isn't providing heat so the horse needs to produce its own from fat reserves.

Also it states that there are two types of ponies, those that have laminitis and those that will get lammintis and that winter should be an opportunity to drop some weight for these animals.


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## rhino (5 July 2011)

Thanks for the articles.

(a) interesting but over 50 years old and about dairy cows, whose metabolism will be rather different from horses (it is amazing how much research on ruminants simply cannot be translated to other animals)

(b)not sure what this was meant to prove but I took these points from it:




			making it important to prevent excess condition in winter as risk of laminitis (founder) is higher when spring pastures come through.
		
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 obviously the important word here is 'excess' although this would also suggest that having a leaner horse coming out of winter could be beneficial




			Thin horses have a higher metabolic rate just to maintain body temperature because they lack insulation
		
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 self explanatory




			To sustain a high metabolic rate without losing condition, horses must be given more feed or feed with a higher energy-density
		
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 self explanatory

Again interesting, although hardly a respected journal article (and no sources given). Thanks


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## Wagtail (5 July 2011)

siennamum said:



			I didn't realise we were talking about horses which are going into starvation mode. I read your premise as that if horses lose condition over Winter it is because the owners are trying to cut costs by not feeding them.

1. It is healthy & natural for horses to have faster metabolisms in Winter because they are burning more rougage to assist in keeping warm. Many owners try to keep their horses as naturally as possible and see this as normal.

2. Some owners will in fact use this natural weight loss as a means of buffering against the sudden arrival of Spring grass and the impact that may have on the horses waistline.

3. These horses are in great condition and well cared for, no expense is spared in their management BUT their condition does fluctuate over the year.

Do you agree with any of the above Wagtail or do you think these practices are bad management?
		
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I agree that some people truly believe that as horses go through this pattern in the wild then it is best for them to go through this pattern in a domestic circumstance. I beleive that when this is done because they believe it is for the best of the horses then it is not poor management but a different opinion/philosophy to my own. I presume that these people are also not riding their horses or shoeing them or rugging them or stabling them or anything else that would be deemed unnatural for them? 

I do not believe that horses NEED to contend with the effects of Spring Grass. I never SUDDENLY expose horses to Spring grass. It should be a gradual process. I also believe that it is far worse to have sudden weight gain than keeping a horse at a constant healthy weight throughout the year.

But no, I do not have issue with people who manage their horses to be lean in winter because they GENUINELY believe it is good for them (even though I disagree with that opinion). However, I do have issue with people who use it as an excuse to save money 'because horses are meant to lose weight in the winter'.


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## touchstone (5 July 2011)

Wagtail said:



			I agree that some people truly believe that as horses go through this pattern in the wild then it is best for them to go through this pattern in a domestic circumstance. I beleive that when this is done because they believe it is for the best of the horses then it is not poor management but a different opinion/philosophy to my own. I presume that these people are also not riding their horses or shoeing them or rugging them or stabling them or anything else that would be deemed unnatural for them? 

I do not believe that horses NEED to contend with the effects of Spring Grass. I never SUDDENLY expose horses to Spring grass. It should be a gradual process. I also believe that it is far worse to have sudden weight gain than keeping a horse at a constant healthy weight throughout the year.

But no, I do not have issue with people who manage their horses to be lean in winter because they GENUINELY believe it is good for them (even though I disagree with that opinion). However, I do have issue with people who use it as an excuse to save money 'because horses are meant to lose weight in the winter'.
		
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Then many vets and nutritionists would disagree with you!  Interesting to note that the horses in the second article were only fed 5 -6 kg of hay rather than the 30kg you seem to feed.


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## Baggybreeches (5 July 2011)

Wagtail said:



			Baggy, when have I ever said horses should be on oodles of lush grass? My issue is with people who allow their horses to lose condition over winter to save money. If you do not do that then why the *** are we argueing?
		
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No, you said it was because of poor management, which can be done by people who spend a fortune of feed and still have a horse looking rough. My horse doesn't lose condition in the winter but he does 'lean up' thats because he might be hunting 1 or 2 days a week, and I increase his hard food. Most (average) people would consider him to be thin, whereas other people would call him fit. And FWIW you can see his ribs all year round because he has a massive rib cage.


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## Natch (5 July 2011)

18 pages and half an hour of my life I'll never get back 

The misinformation around in the horse world is shocking.

If you can intensively manage your horses to be a stable good BCS all year round, then fine, good for you. Many of us struggle with horses putting on weight with the spring grass, so like our horses to come out of winter a bit leaner. I don't think anybody can reasonably justify that the natural cycle is a bad thing, as long as it isn't allowed to get to its extremes. 

As for why dogs aren't managed like that, consider how controlled our dog's diets and environments are compared with horses. We feed a food source which is nutritionally stable all year around, and they are kept in a temperature controlled environment (the house, heated in winter) with an unchanging exercise routine all year around. OK so the air is colder when  they go on walkies, but in general for most domestic dogs not a lot changes for a dog over the course of a year. Horses on the other hand have to contend with massive nutritional differences in grass quality, changes in management regimes, huge temperature fluctuations and seasonal exercise regime changes. And that's why some people prefer to manage their horses seasonally.

Pages ago someone cited the study done on overweight horses losing weight and the 1% of bodyweight feed required to cause it in some horses. The study is the first I know of, of its kind, and I would caution against people using that to justify feeding horses 1%, because the study was limited to studying weight loss. I can't actually find the original article (anyone fancy PMing me with it?) but having searched for it before and read the abstracts/write ups, they did not appear to examine the adequacy of things like vitamin and mineral content of the diet, or behavioural implications, or scope the horses for ulcers, and I could probably find you some more limitations if I had the time (doing a bit of a rush job posting now!). As far as I can understand it, the study looked at food intake ONLY as a means of weight loss, and will be a springboard for future studies into those things I have just listed, no doubt. So please don't consider this the new gospel quite yet


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## Wagtail (5 July 2011)

hch4971 said:



			I didn't realise we were talking about animals in starvation mode either (which totally changes things), as I said, the goal posts are changing constantly!  I think there is a huge difference between owners allowing their horses to drop weight over winter and allowing their horses to starve.  If we are talking starvation then that should have been made clear from the start and would have changed the results of the poll completely, as would mentioning horses dropping weight because the owners are too tight to feed their horses properly.  The poll is completely pointless as it is obviously worded incorrectly and has misled people as to what the actual question refers to!
		
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The poll shows that around 40% of people believe that it is not poor management to let their horses drop weight in the winter. Around 60% believe, as I do that it IS usually bad management although there are exceptions. This bad management may in some circumstances be due to not wanting to pay for the extra hay and haylage required, or not being able to afford it. The rest is due to a difference of opinion. Obviously, the 40% who support your view will believe that maintaining a horse's weight during winter is wrong and therefore bad management. 

At the end of the day, with the exception of people who will not or cannot afford to care properly for their horses, and the occasional horse that is impossible to keep weight on, it is down to a difference of opinion.


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## siennamum (5 July 2011)

I think there are few horse owners who don't try to do things as naturally as possible. Increasingly we seem to avoid shoeing unneccesarily, avoid stabling as much as possible and provide more forage and less straights. Things have changed a lot in the last few years IMO. People would once have managed ponies like this to cut costs and are now increasingly managing competition horses more naturally because it is better for them.

You are also doing things to keep the horse in the best 'natural' way Wagtail. You feed litle & often, you feed more forage, you don't feed animal products. How is letting the horses metabolism speed up in the Winter because you leave them in the field more eating hay not just a part of that.

I think the danger of Spring grass is when you suddenly turn out on to it. My preference is that horse is on the same pasture and so there is no sudden change. Because they are a bit leaner, I can see their weight increase and that is what warns me the grass is coming through (amongst other things). 

So you have agreed that letting horses fluctuate is in fact not BAD management presumably. In fact it seems from many of the posts on here from highly knowledgeable people that it may be something you should consider, rather than your rather unnatural current routine.


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## Wagtail (5 July 2011)

Baggybreeches said:



			No, you said it was because of poor management, which can be done by people who spend a fortune of feed and still have a horse looking rough. My horse doesn't lose condition in the winter but he does 'lean up' thats because he might be hunting 1 or 2 days a week, and I increase his hard food. Most (average) people would consider him to be thin, whereas other people would call him fit. And FWIW you can see his ribs all year round because he has a massive rib cage. 

Click to expand...

Nope, I still cannot see why we appear to have an argument. But sometimes people are just determined to. Sounds like you keep your horses pretty much as I would. And FWIW you can always see one of my mare's ribs too, for the same reason! But her bottom always has a dip in the top. That would give her a score of being overweight. She is not. It is all muscle. It's the way she is built.


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## Natch (5 July 2011)

Wagtail said:



			I agree that some people truly believe that as horses go through this pattern in the wild then it is best for them to go through this pattern in a domestic circumstance. I beleive that when this is done because they believe it is for the best of the horses then it is not poor management but a different opinion/philosophy to my own. I presume that these people are also not riding their horses or shoeing them or rugging them or stabling them or anything else that would be deemed unnatural for them?
		
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Yes because _god forbid _people customise a regime for their horses taking the best/most suitable/most logical bits from each school of thought in order to balance their horse's and the owner/rider's needs . 



Wagtail said:



			But no, I do not have issue with people who manage their horses to be lean in winter because they GENUINELY believe it is good for them (even though I disagree with that opinion). However, I do have issue with people who use it as an excuse to save money 'because horses are meant to lose weight in the winter'.
		
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So do or don't you have a problem with those joe average people who allow their horses to drop a bit of weight in winter but rug and shoe their horses? 

What about those people who have to put up with the changes in grass at the rate that our British summer demands it? Not everybody can intensively manage their horses as you seem to be able to do. And not everybody wishes to... quite justifiably so in my opinion. Are these the people who you deem their horse management is at fault? Should they not be allowed horses unless they can intensively manage them?


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## siennamum (5 July 2011)

How can you intensively manage a yard of competition horses anyway, when you spend your life on an internet forum.

I can sit on here all day if I like cause mine are all in the field shovelling grass down their necks in anticipation of me starving them all winter......


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## Wagtail (5 July 2011)

siennamum said:



			I think there are few horse owners who don't try to do things as naturally as possible. Increasingly we seem to avoid shoeing unneccesarily, avoid stabling as much as possible and provide more forage and less straights. Things have changed a lot in the last few years IMO. People would once have managed ponies like this to cut costs and are now increasingly managing competition horses more naturally because it is better for them.

You are also doing things to keep the horse in the best 'natural' way Wagtail. You feed litle & often, you feed more forage, you don't feed animal products. How is letting the horses metabolism speed up in the Winter because you leave them in the field more eating hay not just a part of that.

I think the danger of Spring grass is when you suddenly turn out on to it. My preference is that horse is on the same pasture and so there is no sudden change. Because they are a bit leaner, I can see their weight increase and that is what warns me the grass is coming through (amongst other things). 

So you have agreed that letting horses fluctuate is in fact not BAD management presumably. In fact it seems from many of the posts on here from highly knowledgeable people that it may be something you should consider, rather than your rather unnatural current routine.
		
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I have nothing against keeping horses as naturally as possible, except that I believe we should keep the weight on them in winter, because we CAN and I believe it is not good for any animal to have vast fluctuations in weight. Besides, if I did let my horses or my liveries lose an ounce of condition over winter they would wonder what on earth they were paying me for. There would be an outcry! If you pay someone to look after your horse and pay for full livery, then you do not expect them to lose condition when you are paying for them to be fed! 

My sister keeps her horses unrugged, unshod, and practically no hard feed. She has 10 acres of good grazing and far too much grass for 2 horses and a native pony. Somehow she manages to maintain their weight throuhout the year. They are not too fat in summer, or too thin in winter. So it CAN be done naturally.


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## Amymay (5 July 2011)

siennamum said:



			How can you intensively manage a yard of competition horses anyway, when you spend your life on an internet forum.

I can sit on here all day if I like cause mine are all in the field shovelling grass down their necks in anticipation of me starving them all winter......
		
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Touche!!!!

Fin de Jeu


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## rhino (5 July 2011)

I will be brave (or foolish) and put up a couple of pics of my boy, taken about March/April IIRC. Bear in mind he is in his 20s and had been out of work for several months (damn the Scottish weather!)












Had he lost weight over the winter? Yes.
Has he now put some back on? Yes.
Am I happy with that? Yes.


Oops, massive pics, sorry!


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## henryhorn (5 July 2011)

Having been directed to this thread by someone, all I can say is Wagtail you may claim to have lots of experience but you need a lot more in how to get your point across. 
I'm afraid the tone is generally, "Listen to me I KNOW I'M RIGHT !" which doesn't really work...
Using data that is 50 years old really won't wash with the horse owners of today, they are far better informed nowadays and I would say 95 % really do their best for their horses. 
I would also suggest before you make such sweeping statements you think who else could be reading your posts, there are those on here with a much greater level of experience when it comes to running yards and feeding horses to the highest of competition levels, and you just sound silly. 
Sorry but that's the truth.
There are many many methods of feeding that work, and there are horses who need incredibly specialised feeding to maintain weight , so please allow people some credit. 
You do seem pretty blinkered in your views.. 
We can all learn from each other, but you have to be open minded to do that.


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## Wagtail (5 July 2011)

siennamum said:



			How can you intensively manage a yard of competition horses anyway, when you spend your life on an internet forum.

I can sit on here all day if I like cause mine are all in the field shovelling grass down their necks in anticipation of me starving them all winter......
		
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Mine are all out 24/7. It is an easy time of year for me. Later on I have a lesson to give and a horse to ride in the evening when it's cooler. I will pop down and put haylage in the fields later on too as the grass is poor this year and they need more forage. They were also given a hard feed at 6 am. So yes, I have lots of free time at the moment!


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## Dolcé (5 July 2011)

Wagtail said:



			I agree that some people truly believe that as horses go through this pattern in the wild then it is best for them to go through this pattern in a domestic circumstance. I beleive that when this is done because they believe it is for the best of the horses then it is not poor management but a different opinion/philosophy to my own. I presume that these people are also not riding their horses or shoeing them or rugging them or stabling them or anything else that would be deemed unnatural for them? 

I do not believe that horses NEED to contend with the effects of Spring Grass. I never SUDDENLY expose horses to Spring grass. It should be a gradual process. I also believe that it is far worse to have sudden weight gain than keeping a horse at a constant healthy weight throughout the year.

But no, I do not have issue with people who manage their horses to be lean in winter because they GENUINELY believe it is good for them (even though I disagree with that opinion). However, I do have issue with people who use it as an excuse to save money 'because horses are meant to lose weight in the winter'.
		
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The thing is Wagtail, as anyone with a lami prone horse or pony will tell you, it is not just spring grass that is the problem, it is any grass, if the animal is even slightly overweight (and sometimes even where it is at optimum weight).  Our herd have been far healthier and far happier since we changed our winter management.  In my case, my lami prone ponies can stay with their herd all year round as opposed to standing in a starvation paddock from march to december with hay provided in small holed nets.  My home bred pony, which had to be rugged all year round since his first winter due to sweet itch, no longer wears a rug at all, EVER, he receives no other management for that condition!  The lami prone ID/TB is no longer at risk of losing his life, which another serious episode would have led to, despite the management that was in place.  Whilst I now like mine to come out of winter thin, this does not mean skeletal.  I have several warmbloods, a 7/8TB, and far too many natives, the natives are managed on a different level to the horses, every ounce of hay/haylage weighed throughout the winter to ensure they are not overfed, they are all unrugged.  Some of the the horses are fed a high forage, high oil diet with absolutely no cereal, some just small token feed on the same basis, all live out 24/7/365 with constant access to large bale haylage and are rugged from MW to HW according to need.  The condition of all is monitored constantly and feeding adapted as necessary.  

My winter feed bill is not far off 1k a month, far more than I would have been paying had I kept them the way I used to, with a haynet in the stable overnight, a hard feed morning and night and turnout through the day with a bit of hay if the ground was covered.   Not one of ours has had a sudden weight gain into spring and summer, they have put weight on but it has come on gradually and they are all blooming.  They are still evaluated very regularly to ensure none put too much on too early, they will be allowed to gain much more ready for going into winter.  I truly doubt that any conscientious owner allows their horse to lose weight because they want to save money, difference in opinion is one thing but don't try to make people feel guilty about their management by insinuating that, it really is not nice!  Your mission should really be to convert your liveries from the cereals they are using onto a forage based diet, I am surprised you are not more forceful of your opinions to them!


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## penhwnllys_stardust (5 July 2011)

I'm surprised my horse is still alive


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## Miss L Toe (5 July 2011)

touchstone said:



			I do feel that there are exceptions to simply a lack of feed being the only reason for weight loss.
I also feel it is beneficial to allow a slight weight loss over the winter, especially in overweight animals.  Horses are often kept rather too well all year round and this can contribute to problems, allowing the metabolism problems to creep in such as insulin resistance and laminitis.  A thinner horse has much less stress on joints, lungs/heart etc so winter can be a good opportunity for those that struggle with gaining weight over the summer months.  (I'm certainly not condoning starving or underweight horses here btw.)
Other management issues also need to be looked at, such as dentistry, worming, rugging, clipping or not etc, they all combine alongside good diet to keep a horse healthy in winter.
		
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^^^^^
I agree with this, in fact I like to lose about 5-10 kilos over the six weeks before turnout, and then keep him in at night with a haynet until the first flush of grass has been eaten off [ usually by greedy natives!]. This is good management, and gives me a chance to control his weight at a time of the year when he might get laminitis. No one has ever said anything other than how well he always looks. Feed and exercise over the winter have to be balanced.


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## siennamum (5 July 2011)

Wagtail said:



			I believe it is not good for any animal to have vast fluctuations in weight. Besides, if I did let my horses or my liveries lose an ounce of condition over winter they would wonder what on earth they were paying me for. There would be an outcry! If you pay someone to look after your horse and pay for full livery, then you do not expect them to lose condition when you are paying for them to be fed!
		
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Who said anything about vast fluctuations in weight. Again you have moved the goal posts. Your original premise related to horses simply losing condition. My assumption was that you meant horses losing some weight, not vast amounts of weight. No-one would be happy about horses losing vast amounts of weight. I'm a bit flummoxed now.


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## Wagtail (5 July 2011)

henryhorn said:



			Having been directed to this thread by someone, all I can say is Wagtail you may claim to have lots of experience but you need a lot more in how to get your point across. 
I'm afraid the tone is generally, "Listen to me I KNOW I'M RIGHT !" which doesn't really work...
Using data that is 50 years old really won't wash with the horse owners of today, they are far better informed nowadays and I would say 95 % really do their best for their horses. 
I would also suggest before you make such sweeping statements you think who else could be reading your posts, there are those on here with a much greater level of experience when it comes to running yards and feeding horses to the highest of competition levels, and you just sound silly. 
Sorry but that's the truth.
There are many many methods of feeding that work, and there are horses who need incredibly specialised feeding to maintain weight , so please allow people some credit. 
You do seem pretty blinkered in your views.. 
We can all learn from each other, but you have to be open minded to do that.
		
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Thanks Henryhorn. I take on board what you say. I don't pride myself on my tact! But I speak as I see it. Of course there are loads of people more experienced than I am. I don't doubt that for a second. With repsect though, we are not discussion the feeding of competition horses. We are discussing horses being allowed to drop condition during the winter and whether this is a good or a bad thing.

I agree I have very strong views which I have no qualms about voicing and many people don't like me for it. That does not bother me in the slightest. I am under no illusions. I am not a popular member of this forum, though many do PM me and say I have been brave to say what I have and that they support me but would rather not say on the forum. For obvious reasons!


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## Miss L Toe (5 July 2011)

siennamum said:



			Who said anything about vast fluctuations in weight. Again you have moved the goal posts. Your original premise related to horses simply losing condition. My assumption was that you meant horses losing some weight, not vast amounts of weight. No-one would be happy about horses losing vast amounts of weight. I'm a bit flummoxed now.
		
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You should be aware that no matter what you post on here there is someone who will take an extreme viewpoint, or assume that you have done so, that is the way of this forum.


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## Wagtail (5 July 2011)

siennamum said:



			Who said anything about vast fluctuations in weight. Again you have moved the goal posts. Your original premise related to horses simply losing condition. My assumption was that you meant horses losing some weight, not vast amounts of weight. No-one would be happy about horses losing vast amounts of weight. I'm a bit flummoxed now.
		
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The reason given by most for allowing their horses to drop weight in the winter is in preparation for the sudden weight increase in the summer.


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## touchstone (5 July 2011)

Naturally said:



			Pages ago someone cited the study done on overweight horses losing weight and the 1% of bodyweight feed required to cause it in some horses. The study is the first I know of, of its kind, and I would caution against people using that to justify feeding horses 1%, because the study was limited to studying weight loss. I can't actually find the original article (anyone fancy PMing me with it?) but having searched for it before and read the abstracts/write ups, they did not appear to examine the adequacy of things like vitamin and mineral content of the diet, or behavioural implications, or scope the horses for ulcers, and I could probably find you some more limitations if I had the time (doing a bit of a rush job posting now!). As far as I can understand it, the study looked at food intake ONLY as a means of weight loss, and will be a springboard for future studies into those things I have just listed, no doubt. So please don't consider this the new gospel quite yet 

Click to expand...

It was me that quoted that study Naturally    There is a link here:-http://www.equinescienceupdate.co.uk/wlrhd.htm

I agree that it is aimed for weight loss not maintenance and for horses that are getting little/no exercise.  My point was to try to show that not all horses require the 30kg of haylage per day that the op was suggesting, in fact I don't think mine could even eat that much, and some can indeed manage on very little feed without becoming underweight and would quickly become overweight/obese when fed too much.  As with all things horses it depends on the individual, you can't say that all horses need the same thing feed/management wise.

I believe that the 1% was recommended short term to reduce weight and there were no health issues or stereotypical behaviour traits shown in the horses involved in the study, which was over 16 weeks. They also recommended a balancer so that vit/mins would be addressed.

Hope that helps.


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## Wagtail (5 July 2011)

touchstone said:



			My point was to try to show that not all horses require the 30kg of haylage per day that the op was suggesting, in fact I don't think mine could even eat that much, and some can indeed manage on very little feed without becoming underweight and would quickly become overweight/obese when fed too much.  As with all things horses it depends on the individual, you can't say that all horses need the same thing feed/management wise.
		
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I never said that. I said that I feed an average of 16 kg of haylage a day during the winter when my horses are on no grass. I said that this is the amount I needed to feed to maintain their weight during the winter.


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## spaniel (5 July 2011)

Wagtail said:



			The reason given by most for allowing their horses to drop weight in the winter is in preparation for the sudden weight increase in the summer.
		
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Sorry Wagtail but thats simply NOT the case.   You are making this up as you go along now!

Sudden increase????   Thats not what happens at all.   Most horses experience a gentle but prolonged weight gain,  which is why some owners get rather caught out - they havent noticed the pounds going on over the weeks.

Please,  if you are going to debate,  dont twist the results of your poll to suit the direction you choose to take.


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## Natch (5 July 2011)

touchstone said:



			It was me that quoted that study Naturally    There is a link here:-http://www.equinescienceupdate.co.uk/wlrhd.htm

I agree that it is aimed for weight loss not maintenance and for horses that are getting little/no exercise.  My point was to try to show that not all horses require the 30kg of haylage per day that the op was suggesting, in fact I don't think mine could even eat that much, and some can indeed manage on very little feed without becoming underweight and would quickly become overweight/obese when fed too much.  As with all things horses it depends on the individual, you can't say that all horses need the same thing feed/management wise.

I believe that the 1% was recommended short term to reduce weight and there were no health issues or stereotypical behaviour traits shown in the horses involved in the study, which was over 16 weeks. They also recommended a balancer so that vit/mins would be addressed.

Hope that helps. 

Click to expand...

Thanks Touchstone


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## Wagtail (5 July 2011)

So is no one going to answer my post regarding what would happen if I allowed my livery horses to drop weight during the winter? They pay me full livery and would be extremely miffed if their horses dropped weight, as would I.


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## chestnut cob (5 July 2011)

Bop! said:



			I have a good do-er.

I could feed him the "recommended" amount during the winter so he maintains his "ideal" body weight all winter.  Then restrict his grazing all summer, meaning he has to spend the majority of the time alone (either in a taped off section of the field or in his stable).  This way he would maintain the same condition all year round.

Instead, I choose to feed him so that he looses weight in the winter and comes into spring looking lean, ribs being easily felt and sometimes even showing .  He spends the summer with his friends out 24hrs, on reasonable but not good grazing, getting a little fatter week by week and being ridden daily to keep him fit (and cause we both quite like it really). He goes into the winter looking a little too round but not obese.

Have tried it the other way (lack of knowledge when I first got him many moons ago) and I know which way we both prefer .  Nothing to do with economics, just what appears to be best for MY horse.

Interestingly, he doesn't seem to get fatter and fatter each summer as you suggest he should?
		
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^^ You've just described my situation ^^

I have a very good doer who always drops weight around Oct/Nov time.  Last winter and the one before, I panicked and increased his haylage/hard feed to compensate, got him back to "optimum" then spent the rest of the winter battling his weight.  Don't even get me started on how difficult spring is when he comes out of winter looking so "well"!  Last summer he was on poor grazing yet still needed to be ridden every day (1-2 hours each day including intervals, fast canter work, jumping, schooling, loads of hacking) PLUS 3 walker sessions a week to keep his weight in check.  All because he came out of the winter well covered.  This year he came out of winter less well covered and so has been far easier to manage.  He usually needs to be stabled all day, every day with only soaked hay but this year he has mainly lived out with a bit of (sometimes soaked) hay to keep him occupied when the other horses come in.  Going into the coming winter, he will be allowed to drop weight as that seems natural to him and I'll let him stay slimmer throughout in the hope I have a horse who won't need his grazing restricted so much next spring/summer.

It's all well and good to say horses should maintain a good weight all year but when you have a good doer who only needs to look at a blade of grass to get fat, it's an ongoing struggle.  Even when I think I've got him just right, my vet will come along and tell me to get another 50kg off - and I like my horses on the slim side so it just goes to show that most of us probably overestimate how much covering our horses should have!


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## Wagtail (5 July 2011)

spaniel said:



			Sorry Wagtail but thats simply NOT the case.   You are making this up as you go along now!

Sudden increase????   Thats not what happens at all.   Most horses experience a gentle but prolonged weight gain,  which is why some owners get rather caught out - they havent noticed the pounds going on over the weeks.

Please,  if you are going to debate,  dont twist the results of your poll to suit the direction you choose to take.
		
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A few pages back someone used the phrase 'ballooned overnight' or words to that effect. I really can't be bothered looking. I am fending off so many of the pack right now.


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## Amymay (5 July 2011)

Wagtail said:



			So is no one going to answer my post regarding what would happen if I allowed my livery horses to drop weight during the winter? They pay me full livery and would be extremely miffed if their horses dropped weight, as would I.
		
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It depends on the reasons for the weight loss.

My horses are always fitter in the winter than the summer - so loose weight and are leaner.  But through fitness not deprivation.


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## joeanne (5 July 2011)

Wagtail said:



			So is no one going to answer my post regarding what would happen if I allowed my livery horses to drop weight during the winter? They pay me full livery and would be extremely miffed if their horses dropped weight, as would I.
		
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Well I would be very miffed if my native got lami in your care, which would sound a likely prospect, given you wouldn't allow him to drop weight over winter.....
Oh but that won't happen, because having read the last 7 pages of your drivell I wouldn't send you flea's let alone one of my ponies!


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## Dolcé (5 July 2011)

chestnut cob said:



			^^ You've just described my situation ^^

I have a very good doer who always drops weight around Oct/Nov time.  Last winter and the one before, I panicked and increased his haylage/hard feed to compensate, got him back to "optimum" then spent the rest of the winter battling his weight.  Don't even get me started on how difficult spring is when he comes out of winter looking so "well"!  Last summer he was on poor grazing yet still needed to be ridden every day (1-2 hours each day including intervals, fast canter work, jumping, schooling, loads of hacking) PLUS 3 walker sessions a week to keep his weight in check.  All because he came out of the winter well covered.  This year he came out of winter less well covered and so has been far easier to manage.  He usually needs to be stabled all day, every day with only soaked hay but this year he has mainly lived out with a bit of (sometimes soaked) hay to keep him occupied when the other horses come in.  Going into the coming winter, he will be allowed to drop weight as that seems natural to him and I'll let him stay slimmer throughout in the hope I have a horse who won't need his grazing restricted so much next spring/summer.

It's all well and good to say horses should maintain a good weight all year but when you have a good doer who only needs to look at a blade of grass to get fat, it's an ongoing struggle.  Even when I think I've got him just right, my vet will come along and tell me to get another 50kg off - and I like my horses on the slim side so it just goes to show that most of us probably overestimate how much covering our horses should have!
		
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And doesn't it feel much nicer being able to see him in the field, I love it, rather than feeling sooo guilty about shutting them away all day and keeping them off the grass.


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## *hic* (5 July 2011)

Ah, you have now changed to call it "dropping weight" not "losing condition". Obviously you are open minded enough to learn from others more knowledgeable than yourself. Well done.

As for what your liveries would say - probably absolutely nothing if you railroad them as you try to do with people on here.


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## siennamum (5 July 2011)

Wagtail said:



			So is no one going to answer my post regarding what would happen if I allowed my livery horses to drop weight during the winter? They pay me full livery and would be extremely miffed if their horses dropped weight, as would I.
		
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My liveries all lose weight in the Winter. They gain some weight in the Summer. The upside is they have unlimited turnout, virtually zero hard food bills and extremely happy healthy horses/ponies. They often come to me with horses ponies which apparently are hard to get weight on and with lots of hard feed. Within a short space of time they are feeding no hard food, considering bringing their horses in over the Summer to keep the weight off them (ours are in more in the Summer than Winter as a rule) and are amazed at how calm and happy they are.

I am lucky, I have lots of land. I appreciate that if horses have to be stabled more they will not see these benefits. It's a shame your circumstances don't allow you to move your liveries horses over to a more natural lifesyle.


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## touchstone (5 July 2011)

Wagtail said:



			I never said that. I said that I feed an average of 16 kg of haylage a day during the winter when my horses are on no grass. I said that this is the amount I needed to feed to maintain their weight during the winter.
		
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In which case I apologise, I'm getting all my kg and lb's mixed up because my old brain is starting to fry! 

Even so, 16kg is equivalent to 35lb, which would be a lot for many horses.


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## Wagtail (5 July 2011)

joeanne said:



			Well I would be very miffed if my native got lami in your care, which would sound a likely prospect, given you wouldn't allow him to drop weight over winter.....
Oh but that won't happen, because having read the last 7 pages of your drivell I wouldn't send you flea's let alone one of my ponies!

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Never had a case of lami in 30 years, but don't worry, you wouldn't get on my yard, I could spot you a mile off, so everyone is happy


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## Dolcé (5 July 2011)

Wagtail said:



			A few pages back someone used the phrase 'ballooned overnight' or words to that effect. I really can't be bothered looking. I am fending off so many of the pack right now. 

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So one person used that phrase and you have translated that as 'most' use that reason?


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## joeanne (5 July 2011)

Wagtail said:



			Never had a case of lami in 30 years
		
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You are so funny Wagtail.
I do wonder if you scare your liveries a tad....that or you just find the most gullible so you can feed (and charge them) for feed and copious amounts of hay/haylage they simply dont need.
And I LOVE the fact that with all your wisdom, and multi-tasking abilities, you can sit here all day typing twaddle AND manage to pump all this feed and forage into your liveries at the same time!
Amazing!


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## Wagtail (5 July 2011)

siennamum said:



			My liveries all lose weight in the Winter. They gain some weight in the Summer. The upside is they have unlimited turnout, virtually zero hard food bills and extremely happy healthy horses/ponies. They often come to me with horses ponies which apparently are hard to get weight on and with lots of hard feed. Within a short space of time they are feeding no hard food, considering bringing their horses in over the Summer to keep the weight off them (ours are in more in the Summer than Winter as a rule) and are amazed at how calm and happy they are.

I am lucky, I have lots of land. I appreciate that if horses have to be stabled more they will not see these benefits. It's a shame your circumstances don't allow you to move your liveries horses over to a more natural lifesyle.
		
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I would love to have the facilities to do that! Lucky you. I only have an acre per horse and turnout in winter is in an all weather specially constructed area. I won't have horses standing in mud. But the horses on the yard are extremely calm and happy, so it obviously suits them. Apart from the two liveries that ask for comp mix, all of them are on forage only with Alfa A and fast fibre plus a few hi fibre cubes. I don't feed cereals unless specifially requested.


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## touchstone (5 July 2011)

Wagtail said:



			So is no one going to answer my post regarding what would happen if I allowed my livery horses to drop weight during the winter? They pay me full livery and would be extremely miffed if their horses dropped weight, as would I.
		
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I for one would be very happy to have a lean, fit horse.   Like my old Dad says, you don't see a fat racehorse do you?  

No one is saying a horse should drop weight drastically (unless it's needed) over winter and I'd be the first to say when a horse is too thin.


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## Amymay (5 July 2011)

Wagtail said:



			I would love to have the facilities to do that! Lucky you. I only have an acre per horse and turnout in winter is in an all weather specially constructed area. I won't have horses standing in mud. But the horses on the yard are extremely calm and happy, so it obviously suits them. Apart from the two liveries that ask for comp mix, all of them are on forage only with Alfa A and fast fibre plus a few hi fibre cubes. I don't feed cereals unless specifially requested.
		
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It sounds as if you have too many horses.  Reducing the numbers would allow for improved turnout facillities all year round.  And it could be one of the reasons why you need to forage them all year around, if you simply don't have enough grass for the number of horses.


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## Miss L Toe (5 July 2011)

joeanne said:



			Well I would be very miffed if my native got lami in your care, which would sound a likely prospect, given you wouldn't allow him to drop weight over winter.....
Oh but that won't happen, because having read the last 7 pages of your drivell I wouldn't send you flea's let alone one of my ponies!

Click to expand...

I do wish people would try to take a mature attitude and cut out the venom, it makes for very unpleasant reading.


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## Wagtail (5 July 2011)

I guess I should put this thread to bed now. It has all been highly predictable stuff, with the usual suspects ganging up.  I did say it was a contentious issue at the start. Thanks for the discussion. Am happy to continue discussing with polite people with no axe to grind, but will have to ignore all future aggressive/personal posts.


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## Wagtail (5 July 2011)

amymay said:



			It sounds as if you have too many horses.  Reducing the numbers would allow for improved turnout facillities all year round.  And it could be one of the reasons why you need to forage them all year around, if you simply don't have enough grass for the number of horses.
		
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Completely agree, which is why I feed extra haylage. You need at least 3 acres per horse if you want to keep them on grass only. Most people do not have that luxury. 

However, I am quite happy the way things are.


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## bensababy (5 July 2011)

Wagtail said:



			ETA Laminitis is so prevalent because people put their horses out onto pasture that is too lush.
		
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And you dont think over feeding and people feeding haylage is a common factor??


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## Dolcé (5 July 2011)

Wagtail said:



			I would love to have the facilities to do that! Lucky you. I only have an acre per horse and turnout in winter is in an all weather specially constructed area. I won't have horses standing in mud. But the horses on the yard are extremely calm and happy, so it obviously suits them. Apart from the two liveries that ask for comp mix, all of them are on forage only with Alfa A and fast fibre plus a few hi fibre cubes. I don't feed cereals unless specifially requested.
		
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Now it becomes clear!  If you don't have horses on grass over winter then you are not facing the same challenges as most other owners and your limited summer grazing would make it far easier for you to maintain a horse's weight all year round than the average owner.  I can probably understand why you manage them the way you do now, livery horses dropping weight over winter standing out in an enclosed non grass area as opposed to living out on acres of land would be a different matter.  Personally I wouldn't keep my horses on a yard where grass turnout was restricted in any way, we have stables but choose not to use them.  If they are not getting any grass over winter then you would have to feed optimum amounts of forage without worrying about how much they are eating from the field.  Perhaps you should consider reducing the number of liveries so that you have the facilities to keep them more naturally.  If you didn't have too many horses in the field then you wouldn't get mud other than gateways!


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## Wagtail (5 July 2011)

MrsD123 said:



			I do wish people would try to take a mature attitude and cut out the venom, it makes for very unpleasant reading.
		
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Yes, me too. We can all disagree but no need for the vitriol.


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## Amymay (5 July 2011)

Wagtail said:



			Completely agree, which is why I feed extra haylage. You need at least 3 acres per horse if you want to keep them on grass only. Most people do not have that luxury. 

However, I am quite happy the way things are.
		
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But surely if you reduced the number of liveries you could offer a better service?

And is it really a luxury?  You have decided how many liveries you want, thereby providing only limited turnout and grazing.

I've also never stabled my horses anywhere where there isn't ample grazing and turnout.  As a customer it's what I look for and expect.  I most certainly don't consider it a luxury.


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## kerilli (5 July 2011)

Wagtail said:



			So is no one going to answer my post regarding what would happen if I allowed my livery horses to drop weight during the winter? They pay me full livery and would be extremely miffed if their horses dropped weight, as would I.
		
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they gain a little weight here and there, they lose a little weight here and there. i doubt many people can claim that their horse(s) carry exactly the same amount of weight all year round.
one of mine was on livery last winter and lost a little bit of weight (in spite of totally ad lib hay/haylage, a good warm HW turnout, and daily hard feed incl balancer etc) - not a lot, just a little bit. she was in foal too. did i have a headfit about it? no, we just altered/upped her hard feed a little and she picked it up again very nicely. no problem at all.
minor fluctuations aren't anything at all to get upset about imho. it's natural to have those fluctuations depending on the time of year, temperature, quality of grass, how thick the horse's coat is, its breed, yadda yadda.
fluctuations from 'i can see every rib, call the RSPCA' to 'OMG it's waddling and a mm from laminitis' are more serious.  
there are LOTS of different ways of keeping horses well, and happy. some need specific care (lami prone for e.g.), some can look pretty good with minimal involvement, some are very 'special needs'.
i'll go away now before someone tells me off for having to Point Out The Flipping Obvious, though!


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## joeanne (5 July 2011)

MrsD123 said:



			I do wish people would try to take a mature attitude and cut out the venom, it makes for very unpleasant reading.
		
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Ahhh MrsD123 of the "I shall blame my negligent yard for the awful state of my now unsellable pony"
Another one of the cloud cuckoo brigade!
There is a simple solution however.....dont like me? Use your U.I function....its what it is there for!


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## martlin (5 July 2011)

Wagtail said:



			I guess I should put this thread to bed now. It has all been highly predictable stuff, with the usual suspects ganging up.  I did say it was a contentious issue at the start. Thanks for the discussion. Am happy to continue discussing with polite people with no axe to grind, but will have to ignore all future aggressive/personal posts.
		
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Not going our way then, is it?
And that old chestnut - ''I have tonnes of support by PM''

Classic


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## Wagtail (5 July 2011)

hch4971 said:



			Now it becomes clear!  If you don't have horses on grass over winter then you are not facing the same challenges as most other owners and your limited summer grazing would make it far easier for you to maintain a horse's weight all year round than the average owner.  I can probably understand why you manage them the way you do now, livery horses dropping weight over winter standing out in an enclosed non grass area as opposed to living out on acres of land would be a different matter.  Personally I wouldn't keep my horses on a yard where grass turnout was restricted in any way, we have stables but choose not to use them.  If they are not getting any grass over winter then you would have to feed optimum amounts of forage without worrying about how much they are eating from the field.  Perhaps you should consider reducing the number of liveries so that you have the facilities to keep them more naturally.  If you didn't have too many horses in the field then you wouldn't get mud other than gateways!
		
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I'm afraid it is the type of land. We are on clay. Before I opened the livery, I had just two horses on seven acres. It still poached dreadfully and so I started using the all weather in the winter, even for just two horses. They were much happier. If I was on a different type of soil then it would be something that I would consider though, yes. But no point at all where we are.


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## Dolcé (5 July 2011)

Wagtail said:



			I guess I should put this thread to bed now. It has all been highly predictable stuff, with the usual suspects ganging up.  I did say it was a contentious issue at the start. Thanks for the discussion. Am happy to continue discussing with polite people with no axe to grind, but will have to ignore all future aggressive/personal posts.
		
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Wagtail, I haven't seen any ganging up on this thread (well not since very early on and you did give as good as you got), as far as I can see it is just people with differing opinions attempting to convert others to their way of thinking.  You come across as being very set in your ways, there are so many ways you could have had this discussion without riling people, I am happy to discuss my own horse management with anyone but do not expect to be derided for it, it is my opinion that I am doing the right thing by my horses.  It is such a shame really, this could have been such a useful thread as it has so many ideas put forward by so many different people.  There are so many ways of keeping horses, some totally wrong but many that are different but right for the horses involved.  As long as owners 'listen' to their horses and react accordingly then tweaks can be made to get it right for all of them.


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## Wagtail (5 July 2011)

martlin said:



			Not going our way then, is it?
And that old chestnut - ''I have tonnes of support by PM''

Classic 

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Blimey, I had a narrow escape! 

On the contrary, the thread has gone exactly my way. The poll results sow 60% in favour of my view that horses dropping weight during winter is usually down to poor management. I am just sick of talking to people who cannot argue reasoably and like to get personal instead. Pointless.


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## Hippona (5 July 2011)

Wagtail said:



			So is no one going to answer my post regarding what would happen if I allowed my livery horses to drop weight during the winter? They pay me full livery and would be extremely miffed if their horses dropped weight, as would I.
		
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But then...would you be looking after the horses with their best interests in mind....or pandering to your clients?

ETA.....as I said previously- I CHOOSE to use winter to get the summer weight off my horses. I do not starve them. I can afford to keep them. I don't rug. I don't shoe. They do come in at night for a haynet, and have hay out in the winter paddock when needed.
This live as naturally as I can get them.

I don't agree with your methods and rationale....but that up to each of us to manage our horses accordingly.

I would be mighty miffed if you were implying that I don't know what I'm doing, or why I'm doing it though......


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## chestnut cob (5 July 2011)

Wagtail said:



			Blimey, I had a narrow escape! 

On the contrary, the thread has gone exactly my way. The poll results sow 60% in favour of my view that horses dropping weight during winter is usually down to poor management. I am just sick of talking to people who cannot argue reasoably and like to get personal instead. Pointless.
		
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Not true.

The poll statistics that I can see on page 1 show:

11% agree that horses dropping weight is usually due to poor management

40% disagreed

48% said it is *generally* due to poor management BUT there are exceptions

So that is not the same thing as "60% said it is due to poor management".


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## Wagtail (5 July 2011)

You have not been ganging up, no. But there are some who regularly do. And I ahve zero respect for them. Even though we may disagree, I am quite happy to continue discussing with people like you who use facts and examples rather than try to score points by getting personal. I left all that behind at school. But then this forum does remind me of school sometimes.


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## Dolcé (5 July 2011)

Wagtail said:



			I'm afraid it is the type of land. We are on clay. Before I opened the livery, I had just two horses on seven acres. It still poached dreadfully and so I started using the all weather in the winter, even for just two horses. They were much happier. If I was on a different type of soil then it would be something that I would consider though, yes. But no point at all where we are.
		
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Oh yes, the dreaded clay, we have that too but fortunately ours have enough acreage for it not to be too much of a problem, other than the obligatory gateways and preferred loitering areas!  Fortunately we have enough dry spots for putting out the large bales through winter and have never yet had a case of mud fever so suspect we have been lucky!


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## Amymay (5 July 2011)

Wagtail said:



			The poll results show 60% in favour of my view that horses dropping weight during winter is usually down to poor management.
		
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Which poll are you looking at - because the one on this thread certainly doesn't show that.


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## s4sugar (5 July 2011)

Wagtail said:



			Blimey, I had a narrow escape! 

On the contrary, the thread has gone exactly my way. The poll results sow 60% in favour of my view that horses dropping weight during winter is usually down to poor management. I am just sick of talking to people who cannot argue reasoably and like to get personal instead. Pointless.
		
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I haven't done the poll as is asks about condition, not weight.

Mine spend the winter slobbing so do lose tone so by default they lose condition but don't necessarily lose any weight.


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## Wagtail (5 July 2011)

chestnut cob said:



			Not true.

The poll statistics that I can see on page 1 show:

11% agree that horses dropping weight is usually due to poor management

40% disagreed

48% said it is *generally* due to poor management BUT there are exceptions

So that is not the same thing as "60% said it is due to poor management".
		
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Yes, but I voted for the third option - the majority. I think it is generally down to poor management with some exceptions. I have said this at least 4 times. So that added to some who think it is USUALLY down to poor management makes the majority.


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## Amymay (5 July 2011)

Yes, but I voted for the third option - the majority
		
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Which is not 60% - it's 48%.


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## kerilli (5 July 2011)

hch4971 said:



			The thing is Wagtail, as anyone with a lami prone horse or pony will tell you, it is not just spring grass that is the problem, it is any grass, if the animal is even slightly overweight (and sometimes even where it is at optimum weight).  Our herd have been far healthier and far happier since we changed our winter management.  In my case, my lami prone ponies can stay with their herd all year round as opposed to standing in a starvation paddock from march to december with hay provided in small holed nets.  My home bred pony, which had to be rugged all year round since his first winter due to sweet itch, no longer wears a rug at all, EVER, he receives no other management for that condition!  The lami prone ID/TB is no longer at risk of losing his life, which another serious episode would have led to, despite the management that was in place.  Whilst I now like mine to come out of winter thin, this does not mean skeletal.  I have several warmbloods, a 7/8TB, and far too many natives, the natives are managed on a different level to the horses, every ounce of hay/haylage weighed throughout the winter to ensure they are not overfed, they are all unrugged.  Some of the the horses are fed a high forage, high oil diet with absolutely no cereal, some just small token feed on the same basis, all live out 24/7/365 with constant access to large bale haylage and are rugged from MW to HW according to need.  The condition of all is monitored constantly and feeding adapted as necessary.  

My winter feed bill is not far off 1k a month, far more than I would have been paying had I kept them the way I used to, with a haynet in the stable overnight, a hard feed morning and night and turnout through the day with a bit of hay if the ground was covered.   Not one of ours has had a sudden weight gain into spring and summer, they have put weight on but it has come on gradually and they are all blooming.  They are still evaluated very regularly to ensure none put too much on too early, they will be allowed to gain much more ready for going into winter.  I truly doubt that any conscientious owner allows their horse to lose weight because they want to save money, difference in opinion is one thing but don't try to make people feel guilty about their management by insinuating that, it really is not nice!  Your mission should really be to convert your liveries from the cereals they are using onto a forage based diet, I am surprised you are not more forceful of your opinions to them!
		
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i'd like to hear more of hch471's way of keeping horses and ponies, personally, as it sounds as if it having excellent results for some challenging equines. please?


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## chestnut cob (5 July 2011)

Wagtail said:



			Yes, but I voted for the third option - the majority. I think it is generally down to poor management with some exceptions. I have said this at least 4 times. So that added to some who think it is USUALLY down to poor management makes the majority.
		
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You just add statistics together to make them give the answer you want!  Otherwise why bother giving the option in the first place?


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## PolarSkye (5 July 2011)

I have what might seem to be a naive question . . . doesn't it depend on how good (or not) your grazing is, how good (or not) a doer your horse is and what stabling arrangements you have?

If Kal were living out all winter on relatively poor grazing, I'd want him to carry more condition through winter and into spring than if he had stabling at night through the winter and his grazing in the spring was likely to be very good (which is the case where we are now and tbh he came out of winter a little too "well" b/c I didn't realize just how good the spring grass would be at this yard).

This isn't a "one size fits all" discussion and I'm not really sure what the OP's point is?  Managing Kali's condition (he has a high degree of TB in his breeding) is something I need to keep on top of . . . but it's simply a matter of monitoring how much turnout he has on rich grass, soaking his hay as appropriate, increasing or decreasing his hard feed as necessary and managing his exercise.  Surely this is what every horse owner does . . . good or poor doer, good or poor grazing, living in or out?  I just don't get the point of the thread/discussion?

P


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## Hullabaloo (5 July 2011)

joeanne said:



			having read the last 7 pages of your drivell I wouldn't send you flea's let alone one of my ponies!

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lol
No way would I entrust the care of my horse to someone who has such entrenched views and will not consider that there may be other/better ways of doing things.  I don't set myself up as an expert, but I do have the common sense to know when I need advice and ask for it.  Thankfully, I also have enough common sense to know not to ask Wagtail.

Wagtail - you seem to ask people for their opinion purely to tell them they are wrong if they disagree with you.  How you can call it a discussion is beyond me - diatribe seems much more appropriate!  Henryhorn (as always) has given you a very sensible response.  I think you should take on board what she has said.


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## Ibblebibble (5 July 2011)

there is no real point polar skye lol


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## Dolcé (5 July 2011)

Ibblebibble said:



			there is no real point polar skye lol

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The thing is, there was a point, it just wasn't worded very well nor were the goal posts made clear and fixed.  It could have been a really useful discussion with some good ideas floated and, who knows, some may have learned something that would benefit their own horses.  I always find it very sad that people cannot share their views and be open minded to others ideas/experiences, we all have so much to learn.

PolarSkye, it certainly isn't a one size fits all discussion and is also very much down to personal preference.  Personally I like mine to lose considerable weight over winter and come into spring on the lean if not thin side.  My own experience has shown me that this is better for my horses and ponies - it may not be for everyone's.  Wagtail was apparently wanting to know if it was because people were skimping on feeding their horses to save money that was leading to them saying that horses should lose weight over winter, although that isn't clear in the poll introduction.  In my own experience it is far more expensive for us to keep our horses more naturally than it was to keep them in at night out through the day with 2 bucket feeds and a haynet. (almost double the cost actually).


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## Onyxia (5 July 2011)

JessandCharlie said:



			I have always been under the impression that a horse should lose condition over the winter? Feel free to correct me, I haven't read all the posts though I'm afraid 

J&C
		
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Wagtail said:



			I think that opinion is outdated and old fashioned (and also an excuse for SOME to skimp on feeding costs), but others will agree with it. I actually voted for the third option on the poll, in that I think that loss of condition is USUALLY down to poor management, but that there are exceptions.
		
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The horse is an old fashioned animal 
It IS normal for animals to drop and put weight back on in keeping with the seasons- constant stffing of 1001 suplements and bags of mix into horses does them no good.

Treat your horses as as indivual,use the guide on the bag _as a guide only_ and don't ass bucket feed unless it is needed.
I see very few horses at livery who need any bucket feed,but they still get plenty :s

If you are worried about bad habbits/the horse being left out at feed time,give it some chaff/an apple/carrot ect in a bucket when the feed go around.


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## jenki13 (5 July 2011)

Wagtail said:



			So is no one going to answer my post regarding what would happen if I allowed my livery horses to drop weight during the winter? They pay me full livery and would be extremely miffed if their horses dropped weight, as would I.
		
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If I was your livery I'd be worried that my horse hadn't lost any weight over the winter! I think you said they are stabled mostly in the winter? (correct me if wrong) so they then go out on spring grass surely? If mine did that she'd be obese within a week.

I like mine to come out of winter a bit leaner, it means that she doesn't need such strict management over the summer. This year it went wrong.. I was at uni & with easter being so late I didn't get back to ride her & realise how fat she was getting (on just grass & no hard feed / forage at this point). This is from a field that she had been grazing on since February at least.. she's still on the field because she was bordering obese at Easter.
Over the winter she got fed 1/2 scoop pony nuts & about 1/4 bale of hay a day. When the hay ran out she got some haylage & no pony nuts.. the nuts were more of a "token" feed anyway & the hay was fed as the ground was frozen solid & covered in snow.. lugging out water 3 times a day to make sure it didnt freeze was fun  . 
She cost £15 to feed over winter & still came out overweight!


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## jenki13 (5 July 2011)

Wagtail said:



			I'm afraid it is the type of land. We are on clay. Before I opened the livery, I had just two horses on seven acres. It still poached dreadfully and so I started using the all weather in the winter, even for just two horses. They were much happier. If I was on a different type of soil then it would be something that I would consider though, yes. But no point at all where we are.
		
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Umm.. we have clay soil & my horse is out 24/7/365 year... It got bad in the one "paddock" which is where she had her hay (in a tyre to keep it together) but we bricked the gateways (this particular paddock has 3 off it!) & it doesn't get too deep. I walk across it in work boots & the horse doesn't get mud fever. In fact she's only had it once & she was coming into the stable every night that winter & in a drier paddock but had much poorer feet at the time & had more hard feed (don't know if this is a coincidence!).

The difference is we don't crowd the acreage that we have available for the horses, I wouldn't keep a horse on less than 2 acres so that I had minimum an acre for winter & an acre for summer.


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## MegaBeast (5 July 2011)

Well,  I'm going to go against the grain and say that my poor doer TB mare with a limited appetite actually gains weight in Winter when she comes off grass (needed a 56" girth to go round her tum last Winter) and loses weight come April when they go back in the fields, so go figure!  She is rather "special needs" though and very much the exception.


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## Wagtail (5 July 2011)

jenki13 said:



			If I was your livery I'd be worried that my horse hadn't lost any weight over the winter! I think you said they are stabled mostly in the winter? (correct me if wrong) so they then go out on spring grass surely? If mine did that she'd be obese within a week.

I like mine to come out of winter a bit leaner, it means that she doesn't need such strict management over the summer. This year it went wrong.. I was at uni & with easter being so late I didn't get back to ride her & realise how fat she was getting (on just grass & no hard feed / forage at this point). This is from a field that she had been grazing on since February at least.. she's still on the field because she was bordering obese at Easter.
Over the winter she got fed 1/2 scoop pony nuts & about 1/4 bale of hay a day. When the hay ran out she got some haylage & no pony nuts.. the nuts were more of a "token" feed anyway & the hay was fed as the ground was frozen solid & covered in snow.. lugging out water 3 times a day to make sure it didnt freeze was fun  . 
She cost £15 to feed over winter & still came out overweight!
		
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Ours will have the odd day out in the fields in winter and very early spring if it has been dry enough and the ground is not frozen. That way the grass gets nibbled and there is therefore never a sudden rush of grass. Occasionally when this has not been possible they are strip grazed to avoid too much intake. If I had loads of acres then I would cut it for hay and so again, there would not be too much spring grass for them to go out on.


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## honetpot (5 July 2011)

A topic very simular to this was on another forum and atracted the same sort of differences of oppion.
My take on it what ever the horses is gereral condition facter like,how much fat in proportion to muscle,the age of animal,the amount its working, etc all play a role.
Because a horse is a human size 10, doesn't mean it less healthy than if it was a human size 16. In fact the slimmer one with a balanced diet  and correct exercise would probabely be healthier.
 Why are horse owners so quick to judge other people's animals on how they look when the have no knowledge of the amount of work or feeding regeme?The reasonig seems to be if your horse is slimmer than mine you must be , a bad owner and not feeding it enough. Yet if the rider was slimmer we would be asking for the formula.
  I once went to a sale where a women I knew bought a poor thin pony to save it, took it home fed it and turned in it out in a nice green field and it promptly within 2 days was crippled with laminitis.
 I have posted this link please look at the pictures as I think it shows in a normal home situation a pony that had loads of fat 'condition' and unwell to a pony that is in a good condition for the work that it does. 
http://horsegossip.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=health&action=display&thread=82453
Lets not confuse condition with fat, we are not going to a fatstock show and have them bought by a butcher.


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## Wagtail (5 July 2011)

jenki13 said:



			Umm.. we have clay soil & my horse is out 24/7/365 year... It got bad in the one "paddock" which is where she had her hay (in a tyre to keep it together) but we bricked the gateways (this particular paddock has 3 off it!) & it doesn't get too deep. I walk across it in work boots & the horse doesn't get mud fever. In fact she's only had it once & she was coming into the stable every night that winter & in a drier paddock but had much poorer feet at the time & had more hard feed (don't know if this is a coincidence!).

The difference is we don't crowd the acreage that we have available for the horses, I wouldn't keep a horse on less than 2 acres so that I had minimum an acre for winter & an acre for summer.
		
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Good. If I kept horses out 24/7 all year round I would need 3 acres per horse. I have always said that. I only have one acre per horse which is why I supplement throughout the year with haylage. 

However, even with the acreage, I doubt I would like them out 24/7. I don't think it wrong, but most of mine a whimps and they like to come in. They just seem happier to me so long as they have turn out every day and a routine.


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## Wagtail (5 July 2011)

MegaBeast said:



			Well,  I'm going to go against the grain and say that my poor doer TB mare with a limited appetite actually gains weight in Winter when she comes off grass (needed a 56" girth to go round her tum last Winter) and loses weight come April when they go back in the fields, so go figure!  She is rather "special needs" though and very much the exception.
		
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That's interesting. I must admit that I have far more trouble keeping the weight of my two fatties in the winter than I do in the summer. But that is because it is easier to put them on a bare paddock when they can keep nibbling away and it's better for them than standing without forage in a stable. I don't think horses should stand without forage for too long.


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## brighteyes (5 July 2011)

*Wagtail*  With repsect though, we are not discussion the feeding of competition horses. We are discussing horses being allowed to drop condition during the winter and whether this is a good or a bad thing.

No we aren't - or weren't to start with   The poll was "Horses losing condition during the winter is usually down to poor management"  and some options given as to whether this was a correct statement or not.

You could always do another poll to that effect of course...


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## Ibblebibble (5 July 2011)

hch4971 said:



			The thing is, there was a point, it just wasn't worded very well nor were the goal posts made clear and fixed.  It could have been a really useful discussion with some good ideas floated and, who knows, some may have learned something that would benefit their own horses.  I always find it very sad that people cannot share their views and be open minded to others ideas/experiences, we all have so much to learn.

PolarSkye, it certainly isn't a one size fits all discussion and is also very much down to personal preference.  Personally I like mine to lose considerable weight over winter and come into spring on the lean if not thin side.  My own experience has shown me that this is better for my horses and ponies - it may not be for everyone's.  Wagtail was apparently wanting to know if it was because people were skimping on feeding their horses to save money that was leading to them saying that horses should lose weight over winter, although that isn't clear in the poll introduction.  In my own experience it is far more expensive for us to keep our horses more naturally than it was to keep them in at night out through the day with 2 bucket feeds and a haynet. (almost double the cost actually).
		
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you are of course right there was an underlying good point but it sadly was put across very badly and suggested neglect rather than people doing right in their particular circumstances for their individual horses


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## RutlandH2O (5 July 2011)

Wagtail, 

I must commend you on your post and your demeanour
throughout this thread. 

As soon as I read the title of your post and its contents,
I felt a kindred spirit. I have to agree with virtually all you've
said. My 5 Shires come out of winter with a bit of condition loss, but not weight loss. My horses are over-wintered in an enormous pole barn, open to the prevailing winds, but with "wind break" areas within. The barn is separated into 3 sections, each 45' x 30'. There are eight 8' x 4' Perspex windows and many more roof lights to let in ample daylight. They are fed ad lib quality hay day and night. In the past, they got a forage-based meal day and night depending on the quality of the hay. This past winter they were fed hay exclusively. They are not rugged.

We are on heavy clay on very sloping land. The decision to
over-winter them came after a couple of bad slips and falls.
There are enough reasons that cause losses of precious
animals...slipping and falling I can control, somewhat, that's
why they are in during the worst of the winter.

When the Spring grasses start growing, they are turned out
for an hour for several days, then a couple of hours the
following week, etc. We've never had a problem.

The condition they acquire in the fields is a direct result of the
topography of the land. Their field shelter is way at the top of
one of our fields (it was one of the only pieces of level land
to accommodate the shelter). Their water trough is right near
the entrance to the paddock. These distances require them to
do a bit of hiking which, in turn, aids condition.

In a normal Summer, they are at grass 24/7 with no additional
food. This year, I'm still giving them a large haynet each at
night (in field shelters). I started giving them Readigrass and
chaff once a day last week because there is no grass. And, they
are very hungry.

My lot are not in work. They live as natural a life as I can 
provide for them. 

I find it very disconcerting that there are so many disrespectful,
nasty people out there. Character assassination seems to be
the rule. Why? What is the point?

I never got the feeling that you are lording it over other posters
regarding your stance on this subject (I have read every post).
Nor did I think you were changing the goal posts. In the normal
course of communication, there are tos and fros in the 
interaction of ideas. That's not to say one totally discards one's
point of view. You have remained a gentleperson throughout -
good on you!


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## TheEquineOak (5 July 2011)

Christ almighty!!

I'll be taking advice from my Yard Owner this winter. She knows my horse as well as I do.

I fear that novices will act upon some of the drivvel posted here. My eyes crossed with all the contradictions here!!


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## Ellies_mum2 (5 July 2011)

hch4971 said:



			Oh yes, the dreaded clay, we have that too but fortunately ours have enough acreage for it not to be too much of a problem, other than the obligatory gateways and preferred loitering areas!  Fortunately we have enough dry spots for putting out the large bales through winter and have never yet had a case of mud fever so suspect we have been lucky!
		
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Same with us. We like our horses to drop a bit of weight over the winter.We give *some* of them *a* hard feed every day while the rest are just on ad-lib hay and grass.If we thought any of them were dropping too much weight then we would adjust our feed regime. Each one of them is happy and healthy and they live out 24/7/365. On clay.



ETA Some of them also wear rugs through the winter and are also shod


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## fatpiggy (5 July 2011)

Surely it is all about balance? In the summer they eat plentiful grass, don't need much if any hard feed (and I'm a firm believer that most horses can actually work perfectly well off grass alone) but are probably working harder - long hacks, more riding in the evenings, shows.  In the winter they burn calories keeping themselves warm, so we assist them by using rugs as appropriate, giving hay or haylage but given the recent winters, unless you have access to an indoor , or a very well surfaced outdoor which doesn't freeze, I bet many don't get much REAL work.  I took on the care of an extremely elderly but healthy pony which was frankly a hat-rack.  Her owner told me she had lost weight every winter for the last 20 years and it was normal for her.  It turned out that despite having no really functioning teeth except her front incisors, she never received any feed, couldn't eat hay that was put out and her rug was almost as old as her, ill-fitting and pretty well useless so no wonder the poor old girl got so thin.  When I took her on she weighed 500lbs.  The following winter she was over 700lbs and I had to put her on a diet before the spring grass came through. The only changes made were a decent warm, waterproof rug (she lived out, no available shelter) and a big and carefully thought through and weighed bucket of soaked feed.


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## brighteyes (5 July 2011)

*RutlandH2O* That's all as maybe, but what did you vote?


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## RutlandH2O (5 July 2011)

Generally agree....


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## POLLDARK (5 July 2011)

If a horse loses CONDITION not just weight because there is a health problem then the problem should be addressed be it teeth, age whatever. Feed can be adjusted to suit , adequate rugging, heat lamps, the list is long I'm afraid & could be expensive in time, effort & money. It's up to the individual owner how far they are prepared to go so long as suffering is not involved I feel. Just my opinion but that's it.


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## Wagtail (5 July 2011)

RutlandH2O said:



			Wagtail, 

I must commend you on your post and your demeanour
throughout this thread. 

As soon as I read the title of your post and its contents,
I felt a kindred spirit. I have to agree with virtually all you've
said. My 5 Shires come out of winter with a bit of condition loss, but not weight loss. My horses are over-wintered in an enormous pole barn, open to the prevailing winds, but with "wind break" areas within. The barn is separated into 3 sections, each 45' x 30'. There are eight 8' x 4' Perspex windows and many more roof lights to let in ample daylight. They are fed ad lib quality hay day and night. In the past, they got a forage-based meal day and night depending on the quality of the hay. This past winter they were fed hay exclusively. They are not rugged.

We are on heavy clay on very sloping land. The decision to
over-winter them came after a couple of bad slips and falls.
There are enough reasons that cause losses of precious
animals...slipping and falling I can control, somewhat, that's
why they are in during the worst of the winter.

When the Spring grasses start growing, they are turned out
for an hour for several days, then a couple of hours the
following week, etc. We've never had a problem.

The condition they acquire in the fields is a direct result of the
topography of the land. Their field shelter is way at the top of
one of our fields (it was one of the only pieces of level land
to accommodate the shelter). Their water trough is right near
the entrance to the paddock. These distances require them to
do a bit of hiking which, in turn, aids condition.

In a normal Summer, they are at grass 24/7 with no additional
food. This year, I'm still giving them a large haynet each at
night (in field shelters). I started giving them Readigrass and
chaff once a day last week because there is no grass. And, they
are very hungry.

My lot are not in work. They live as natural a life as I can 
provide for them. 

I find it very disconcerting that there are so many disrespectful,
nasty people out there. Character assassination seems to be
the rule. Why? What is the point?

I never got the feeling that you are lording it over other posters
regarding your stance on this subject (I have read every post).
Nor did I think you were changing the goal posts. In the normal
course of communication, there are tos and fros in the 
interaction of ideas. That's not to say one totally discards one's
point of view. You have remained a gentleperson throughout -
good on you!
		
Click to expand...

Thank you Rutland! Though you are very brave in voicing your support!  The problem is there are a few very bossy and vocal people on this forum that band together and try to batter somene into submission by attacking the person rather than the view expressed. It is always the same vocal few. Despite the fact that around 50% agree with my view and a further 10% would go even further, this whole thread is dominated by the mob of would be bullies. They are soooo mean! Lol. People do not usually dare speak out. Doesn't bother me though as I don't care a jot about what people like them think.

Your horses are lucky to have some one like you looking after them.


----------



## Wagtail (5 July 2011)

fatpiggy said:



			Surely it is all about balance? In the summer they eat plentiful grass, don't need much if any hard feed (and I'm a firm believer that most horses can actually work perfectly well off grass alone) but are probably working harder - long hacks, more riding in the evenings, shows.  In the winter they burn calories keeping themselves warm, so we assist them by using rugs as appropriate, giving hay or haylage but given the recent winters, unless you have access to an indoor , or a very well surfaced outdoor which doesn't freeze, I bet many don't get much REAL work.  I took on the care of an extremely elderly but healthy pony which was frankly a hat-rack.  Her owner told me she had lost weight every winter for the last 20 years and it was normal for her.  It turned out that despite having no really functioning teeth except her front incisors, she never received any feed, couldn't eat hay that was put out and her rug was almost as old as her, ill-fitting and pretty well useless so no wonder the poor old girl got so thin.  When I took her on she weighed 500lbs.  The following winter she was over 700lbs and I had to put her on a diet before the spring grass came through. The only changes made were a decent warm, waterproof rug (she lived out, no available shelter) and a big and carefully thought through and weighed bucket of soaked feed.
		
Click to expand...

Agree entirely with this. The horse was needlessly losing condition and good management solved the problem.


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## Dolcé (5 July 2011)

RutlandH2O said:



			Wagtail, 

I must commend you on your post and your demeanour
throughout this thread. 

As soon as I read the title of your post and its contents,
I felt a kindred spirit. I have to agree with virtually all you've
said. My 5 Shires come out of winter with a bit of condition loss, but not weight loss. My horses are over-wintered in an enormous pole barn, open to the prevailing winds, but with "wind break" areas within. The barn is separated into 3 sections, each 45' x 30'. There are eight 8' x 4' Perspex windows and many more roof lights to let in ample daylight. They are fed ad lib quality hay day and night. In the past, they got a forage-based meal day and night depending on the quality of the hay. This past winter they were fed hay exclusively. They are not rugged.

We are on heavy clay on very sloping land. The decision to
over-winter them came after a couple of bad slips and falls.
There are enough reasons that cause losses of precious
animals...slipping and falling I can control, somewhat, that's
why they are in during the worst of the winter.

When the Spring grasses start growing, they are turned out
for an hour for several days, then a couple of hours the
following week, etc. We've never had a problem.

The condition they acquire in the fields is a direct result of the
topography of the land. Their field shelter is way at the top of
one of our fields (it was one of the only pieces of level land
to accommodate the shelter). Their water trough is right near
the entrance to the paddock. These distances require them to
do a bit of hiking which, in turn, aids condition.

In a normal Summer, they are at grass 24/7 with no additional
food. This year, I'm still giving them a large haynet each at
night (in field shelters). I started giving them Readigrass and
chaff once a day last week because there is no grass. And, they
are very hungry.

My lot are not in work. They live as natural a life as I can 
provide for them. 

I find it very disconcerting that there are so many disrespectful,
nasty people out there. Character assassination seems to be
the rule. Why? What is the point?

I never got the feeling that you are lording it over other posters
regarding your stance on this subject (I have read every post).
Nor did I think you were changing the goal posts. In the normal
course of communication, there are tos and fros in the 
interaction of ideas. That's not to say one totally discards one's
point of view. You have remained a gentleperson throughout -
good on you!
		
Click to expand...

The thing is RutlandH2O, nobody is disagreeing with this or saying it is wrong as far as I can see, in fact if I had the facilities I would prefer to barn mine over winter rather than have them in muddy fields.  I would however still want them to lose weight over winter, because in my experience my horses are happier and far, far healthier on that regime.   I would never try to ram that down anyone's throat or say they are wrong for the sort of management that you have, but for the most, on livery yards and little choice of how to manage their horses, we do our best for them.  Whilst I will agree there have been a couple of heated posts, that is more out of frustration at Wagtails stance and changing views.  I originally posted on this thread in good faith only for the inference to then be made that people who let their horses lose weight in winter do so to save money, I had to respond! There was also a lot of information quoted that was completely wrong and had to be corrected in case novices thought it was correct.  I have posted throughout the thread but do not feel I have been disrespectful or nasty, I have tried to say it how I see it, other than in a direct response to Wagtails comments to myself.


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## Fii (5 July 2011)

Wagtail said:



			Thank you Rutland! Though you are very brave in voicing your support!  The problem is there are a few very bossy and vocal people on this forum that band together and try to batter somene into submission by attacking the person rather than the view expressed. It is always the same vocal few. Despite the fact that around 50% agree with my view and a further 10% would go even further, this whole thread is dominated by the mob of would be bullies. They are soooo mean! Lol. People do not usually dare speak out. Doesn't bother me though as I don't care a jot about what people like them think.

Your horses are lucky to have some one like you looking after them. 

Click to expand...

I don't think you have been bullied, quite a few people disagreed with you, and some even stated that some of what you had said was utter nonsense.
 However you picked out the ones you deemed bullies and replyed to them, having ignored some who did'nt actually argue with you but just stated there ways of management, that involved some degree of weight loss.


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## blitznbobs (5 July 2011)

Ok so I'm willing to learn... I have a 18hh 24 year old Gelderlander cross that doesn't like hay or haylage (but loves grass). If you give him totally adlib hay and haylage he leaves it. He has 4 hard feeds a day in the winter (full amount of slobber mash and also barley and large amounts of chop) and he drops weight A LOT over the winter. How do I stop him losing weight?

Thanks

BnBx


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## RutlandH2O (5 July 2011)

hch4971:

I'm not going to start a he-said-she-said post. Suffice to say, as
I was reading the responses I could feel myself becoming very
agitated. The right to disagree with, or counter, a point of view
is healthy and adds to dialogue. But, when it involves contempt, vindictiveness and discourtesy, it reflects very negatively on the persons sending those posts. Wagtails conceded that there are
exceptions to the premise of her original post. As well, she
never lowered herself to words of derision or ridicule.


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## Bop! (5 July 2011)

Wagtail said:



			I agree that some people truly believe that as horses go through this pattern in the wild then it is best for them to go through this pattern in a domestic circumstance. I beleive that when this is done because they believe it is for the best of the horses then it is not poor management but a different opinion/philosophy to my own.
		
Click to expand...

So if what you believe is correct and I am incorrect, in your opinion, in the way that I manage my good doer - how would you manage him differently?



Wagtail said:



			I presume that these people are also not riding their horses or shoeing them or rugging them or stabling them or anything else that would be deemed unnatural for them?
		
Click to expand...

That's a fairly silly comment......


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## Fools Motto (5 July 2011)

Nothing wrong with my horse except her brain it seems! She loses weight in winter, condition drops a bit too, but only a trained eye would notice. She isn't worked in winter, lives out 24/7. Fed hay every morning, and if weather is terrible same in evenings with a feed. She WILL NOT eat what I'd love to give her, seems to get bored with munching and will simply p1ss off accross the field. Many a late, dark evening I am found trudging after her willing her to eat up! If I add anything seemingly tasty and fattening she literally turns her nose up and complains that I am trying to poison her! Only pony nuts cut the mustard with a handful of alfa a. I've had her 11 years, and she has not changed yet. I'd love to see a 'better' person understand her, and feed her up for me!! She won't eat anything in a stable, hence out 24/7 and if I rode her, she would lose even more weight.
Should add, that the summer causes us no problems what so ever. She starts being silly with her food roughly at the time of the clocks changing.
But, I did opt for the 'generally agree but...' as far as I am concerned, there are always exceptions to the rule.


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## Wagtail (6 July 2011)

blitznbobs said:



			Ok so I'm willing to learn... I have a 18hh 24 year old Gelderlander cross that doesn't like hay or haylage (but loves grass). If you give him totally adlib hay and haylage he leaves it. He has 4 hard feeds a day in the winter (full amount of slobber mash and also barley and large amounts of chop) and he drops weight A LOT over the winter. How do I stop him losing weight?

Thanks

BnBx
		
Click to expand...

I think that he obviuosly falls into the exceptions I mentioned earlier. Have you tried feeding readigrass?


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## Wagtail (6 July 2011)

cool mix said:



			Nothing wrong with my horse except her brain it seems! She loses weight in winter, condition drops a bit too, but only a trained eye would notice. She isn't worked in winter, lives out 24/7. Fed hay every morning, and if weather is terrible same in evenings with a feed. She WILL NOT eat what I'd love to give her, seems to get bored with munching and will simply p1ss off accross the field. Many a late, dark evening I am found trudging after her willing her to eat up! If I add anything seemingly tasty and fattening she literally turns her nose up and complains that I am trying to poison her! Only pony nuts cut the mustard with a handful of alfa a. I've had her 11 years, and she has not changed yet. I'd love to see a 'better' person understand her, and feed her up for me!! She won't eat anything in a stable, hence out 24/7 and if I rode her, she would lose even more weight.
Should add, that the summer causes us no problems what so ever. She starts being silly with her food roughly at the time of the clocks changing.
But, I did opt for the 'generally agree but...' as far as I am concerned, there are always exceptions to the rule.
		
Click to expand...

As I acknowledged, right from the start, there are going to be exceptions. Sounds like you have one of them. And sounds like she couldn't have a 'better person' looking after her.


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## Lady La La (6 July 2011)

bakedbean said:



			most of them are.

you just need to bite the bullet, sift through, and try hard to find one that isn't...
think of it as character building.
		
Click to expand...

l.m.f.a.o


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## Wagtail (6 July 2011)

Fii said:



			I don't think you have been bullied, quite a few people disagreed with you, and some even stated that some of what you had said was utter nonsense.
 However you picked out the ones you deemed bullies and replyed to them, having ignored some who did'nt actually argue with you but just stated there ways of management, that involved some degree of weight loss.
		
Click to expand...

No, of course I haven't been bullied. I said 'would be bullies' there is a difference. You have to be bothered by the behaviour to make it bullying. I just think they are silly. I can't believe that any of them is over the age of thirteen TBH. Though sadly, knowing human nature, most of them most probably are.


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## Miss L Toe (6 July 2011)

blitznbobs said:



			Ok so I'm willing to learn... I have a 18hh 24 year old Gelderlander cross that doesn't like hay or haylage (but loves grass). If you give him totally adlib hay and haylage he leaves it. He has 4 hard feeds a day in the winter (full amount of slobber mash and also barley and large amounts of chop) and he drops weight A LOT over the winter. How do I stop him losing weight?

Thanks

BnBx
		
Click to expand...

I assume he has his teeth done at the beginning of winter, have you tried soaking hay and haylage or chopping it with a chaff cutter?...... try Ebay or advertise in  local farming paper.
I would also try feeding from floor in case of neck/back issues.
It might be more economical to go for a speedy beet diet, adding barley rings and mins and vits, but if he is eating chop, which is usually chopped hay with mollasses, there is the answer!
Aim for keeping his summer condition by feeding from September onwards, as once the weight comes off it is difficult to put it back on, weigh out his grub and make sure he is getting enough, he is a big horse, might weigh 7-800 kilos, so 2.5% of that is 17 to 20 kgs per day, which is a lot!
Is the barley micronised [more nutritious] or unprocessed?


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## Ellies_mum2 (6 July 2011)

Why do you seem to think you would need 3 acres per horse for them to just live at grass??   We keep ours at grass and don't have 3 acres each and they winter just fine. Even without rugs.


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## MurphysMinder (6 July 2011)

Wagtail said:



			Ours will have the odd day out in the fields in winter and very early spring if it has been dry enough and the ground is not frozen. That way the grass gets nibbled and there is therefore never a sudden rush of grass. Occasionally when this has not been possible they are strip grazed to avoid too much intake. If I had loads of acres then I would cut it for hay and so again, there would not be too much spring grass for them to go out on.
		
Click to expand...

I have to take issue with you re the grass getting nibbled occasionally stops a sudden rush of grass.  I take hay off my 6 acres, the horses then are out 24/7 over winter, with very occasional hay when there is snow/heavy frost, and come spring it still shoots up.  They have been on less than an acre since about March, and it is still growing.
As to the original question, I like ours to drop a little weight over winter but didn't manage it last winter, they do drop condition/muscle tone as don't have much work.


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## Miss L Toe (6 July 2011)

blitznbobs said:



			Ok so I'm willing to learn... I have a 18hh 24 year old Gelderlander cross that doesn't like hay or haylage (but loves grass). If you give him totally adlib hay and haylage he leaves it. He has 4 hard feeds a day in the winter (full amount of slobber mash and also barley and large amounts of chop) and he drops weight A LOT over the winter. How do I stop him losing weight?

Thanks

BnBx
		
Click to expand...

I start winter feed in September, the grass is  not as good as it looks, [though beware of magnesium deficiency / laminitis if there is an autumn flush of grass]
The cost of your feed is so great that you can benefit from buying straights rather than branded feeds, but you have to be careful.
I would suggest micronised barley rather than ordinary barley
Seaweed meal and linseed meal, limestone flour and other straights from natural horse supplies, make a study of the feeding regime as it is difficult ot get the balance right.
See if you can get a chaff cutter [local farming paper] to make your own chop [hay, straw, limestone flour sprayed with molasses]
Alfa-oil is good for another source of fibre plus oil


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## Thistle (6 July 2011)

blitznbobs, have a look at simple system horse feeds


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## Amymay (6 July 2011)

MurphysMinder said:



			I have to take issue with you re the grass getting nibbled occasionally stops a sudden rush of grass.
		
Click to expand...

I must admit, I felt the same reading that statement.  It's certainly an odd one to make...........


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## Wagtail (6 July 2011)

Ellies_mum2 said:



			Why do you seem to think you would need 3 acres per horse for them to just live at grass??   We keep ours at grass and don't have 3 acres each and they winter just fine. Even without rugs.
		
Click to expand...

Of course you can keep a horse on less, but they need supplementary feeding and your land will get trashed (if it's clay like ours). I know from experience. Dear me, I get attacked for having my horses on an acre of land and now for suggesting that ideally horses need three acres. What a shower!


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## Wagtail (6 July 2011)

MurphysMinder said:



			I have to take issue with you re the grass getting nibbled occasionally stops a sudden rush of grass.  I take hay off my 6 acres, the horses then are out 24/7 over winter, with very occasional hay when there is snow/heavy frost, and come spring it still shoots up.  They have been on less than an acre since about March, and it is still growing.
As to the original question, I like ours to drop a little weight over winter but didn't manage it last winter, they do drop condition/muscle tone as don't have much work.
		
Click to expand...

It's not just the nibbling. When I allow the horses out during the winter and early spring, the conditions are dry. This too will prevent the grass being so lush, as it has done the previous two years. It's the way I like it as it allows me to control weight more effectively, though it is loads more expensive.


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## lexiedhb (6 July 2011)

Wagtail said:



			It's not just the nibbling. When I allow the horses out during the winter and early spring, the conditions are dry. This too will prevent the grass being so lush, as it has done the previous two years. It's the way I like it as it allows me to control weight more effectively, though it is loads more expensive.
		
Click to expand...

So your horses stay in for most of winter/spring??


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## Ellies_mum2 (6 July 2011)

Wagtail said:



			Of course you can keep a horse on less, but they need supplementary feeding and your land will get trashed (if it's clay like ours). I know from experience. Dear me, I get attacked for having my horses on an acre of land and now for suggesting that ideally horses need three acres. What a shower! 

Click to expand...




Please show where I 'attacked' you with my query   We have about an acre per horse and yes it is on clay and no it doesn't get trashed in the winter as we have got stones/gravel etc in gateways to prevent this. Yeah we get mud but it recovers each summer


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## Wagtail (6 July 2011)

lexiedhb said:



			So your horses stay in for most of winter/spring??
		
Click to expand...

No they are out every day but in the massive all weather turnout, with haylage. They have never missed a day's turnout ever even when the snow has meant all other yards around here have not been able to get their horses out.


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## Amymay (6 July 2011)

lexiedhb said:



			So your horses stay in for most of winter/spring??
		
Click to expand...

It would seem so.  Too many horses, on too little acreage


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## Wagtail (6 July 2011)

Ellies_mum2 said:



			Please show where I 'attacked' you with my query   We have about an acre per horse and yes it is on clay and no it doesn't get trashed in the winter as we have got stones/gravel etc in gateways to prevent this. Yeah we get mud but it recovers each summer
		
Click to expand...

_You_ didn't, no. We have all gateways hardcored and gravelled, but even when we had two horses on 7 acres it got trashed. Our land is very clay and on a slope so this doesn't help. Of course, the land recovers, but I have had too many accidents happen in muddy fields to risk any more. The final straw was when my beloved mare broke her shoulder and had to be retired. I will not have horses in muddy fields. It is just not worth the risk (for me).

They love the all weather turnout, and never get mud fever.


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## why1040 (6 July 2011)

Okay, I got to page 26 before I gave up and just had to say something.

To the OP:
A) your poll is poorly worded (I come from a research background here) and is biased towards your own view.  That'll be why most people "agree" with you, because they didn't necessarily read the whole diatribe you then spouted.  Had I not actually read the rest of the thread (well okay, most of it) I probably would have clicked the wrong choice too.

B) your science is dodgy and you put your own beliefs in as fact.

C) you are constantly changing the goalposts, which makes it quite hard to discuss anything with you because we don't know what you ACTUALLY mean!

There's a massive difference between losing a bit of weight over winter and going into starvation mode (which does slow the metabolism).  It takes a LOT of weight loss to go into starvation mode.  It has been proven scientifically that horses' metabolism goes UP in winter.  It only goes DOWN if SIGNIFICANT weight loss (ie starvation) is achieved.  Thus your statement that constant losing and gaining of weight is a bad thing is actually not proven.  Whereas several studies show that losing some weight in winter is a good thing.

It makes sense nutritionally to keep our horses eating as naturally as is possible considering their circumstances, because that's how they were designed to be fed.  Hence why things are changing so we trickle feed more, add more roughage, etc.  So why are you so against the concept that horses were designed to lose a bit of weight in the winter for their health?  

You can say that you were aiming to hear from the people who are just skimping on their horses' diets all you like, as that's not what you stated originally, that's just backtracking I'm afraid.  Your statement was that weight loss during the winter is down to poor management.  It's not.  It's good management.  Except where it isn't because there is already poor management.


----------



## lexiedhb (6 July 2011)

Wagtail said:



_You_ didn't, no. We have all gateways hardcored and gravelled, but even when we had two horses on 7 acres it got trashed. Our land is very clay and on a slope so this doesn't help. Of course, the land recovers, but I have had too many accidents happen in muddy fields to risk any more. The final straw was when my beloved mare broke her shoulder and had to be retired. I will not have horses in muddy fields. It is just not worth the risk (for me).

They love the all weather turnout, and never get mud fever.
		
Click to expand...


Blimey- so your horses spend alot of time in during wet weather- what a shame for them.


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## Baggybreeches (6 July 2011)

why1040 said:



			Okay, I got to page 26 before I gave up and just had to say something.

To the OP:
A) your poll is poorly worded (I come from a research background here) and is biased towards your own view.  That'll be why most people "agree" with you, because they didn't necessarily read the whole diatribe you then spouted.  Had I not actually read the rest of the thread (well okay, most of it) I probably would have clicked the wrong choice too.

B) your science is dodgy and you put your own beliefs in as fact.

C) you are constantly changing the goalposts, which makes it quite hard to discuss anything with you because we don't know what you ACTUALLY mean!

There's a massive difference between losing a bit of weight over winter and going into starvation mode (which does slow the metabolism).  It takes a LOT of weight loss to go into starvation mode.  It has been proven scientifically that horses' metabolism goes UP in winter.  It only goes DOWN if SIGNIFICANT weight loss (ie starvation) is achieved.  Thus your statement that constant losing and gaining of weight is a bad thing is actually not proven.  Whereas several studies show that losing some weight in winter is a good thing.

It makes sense nutritionally to keep our horses eating as naturally as is possible considering their circumstances, because that's how they were designed to be fed.  Hence why things are changing so we trickle feed more, add more roughage, etc.  So why are you so against the concept that horses were designed to lose a bit of weight in the winter for their health?  

You can say that you were aiming to hear from the people who are just skimping on their horses' diets all you like, as that's not what you stated originally, that's just backtracking I'm afraid.  Your statement was that weight loss during the winter is down to poor management.  It's not.  It's good management.  Except where it isn't because there is already poor management.
		
Click to expand...

*standing ovation*


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## siennamum (6 July 2011)

why1040 said:



			Okay, I got to page 26 before I gave up and just had to say something.

To the OP:
A) your poll is poorly worded (I come from a research background here) and is biased towards your own view.  That'll be why most people "agree" with you, because they didn't necessarily read the whole diatribe you then spouted.  Had I not actually read the rest of the thread (well okay, most of it) I probably would have clicked the wrong choice too.

B) your science is dodgy and you put your own beliefs in as fact.

C) you are constantly changing the goalposts, which makes it quite hard to discuss anything with you because we don't know what you ACTUALLY mean!

There's a massive difference between losing a bit of weight over winter and going into starvation mode (which does slow the metabolism).  It takes a LOT of weight loss to go into starvation mode.  It has been proven scientifically that horses' metabolism goes UP in winter.  It only goes DOWN if SIGNIFICANT weight loss (ie starvation) is achieved.  Thus your statement that constant losing and gaining of weight is a bad thing is actually not proven.  Whereas several studies show that losing some weight in winter is a good thing.

It makes sense nutritionally to keep our horses eating as naturally as is possible considering their circumstances, because that's how they were designed to be fed.  Hence why things are changing so we trickle feed more, add more roughage, etc.  So why are you so against the concept that horses were designed to lose a bit of weight in the winter for their health?  

You can say that you were aiming to hear from the people who are just skimping on their horses' diets all you like, as that's not what you stated originally, that's just backtracking I'm afraid.  Your statement was that weight loss during the winter is down to poor management.  It's not.  It's good management.  Except where it isn't because there is already poor management.
		
Click to expand...

Hooray - a voice of reason. Wagtail, please address this post. Or please tell me how my horses losing and gaining a small amount of seasonal weight (and there are no exceptional circumstances) is due to poor management.


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## spaniel (6 July 2011)

Applauds why1040


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## honetpot (6 July 2011)

We are on clay and live on the edge of a flood plain so some of the land get flooded some years to a depth of two feet. 
 My animals are out all year, you just have to close your eyes to the mud, have a scarifice paddock and acccept that you have to harrow and reseed in the spring. I have 6 on aproxiametly 5 acres. 
 If the mud is really bad I make islands of straw for them to stand on out of the wet, but I have never had any with mud fever even the TB. Come the spring they come onto a smaller area and the rest of the land is fertilised ,harrowed and seeded and even in this dry spring the grass has recovered.
 It does take some thinking about but I think they are better out than stood in a stable, even if the pasture is not perfect and sometime resembles a bog.


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## Wagtail (6 July 2011)

why1040 said:



			Okay, I got to page 26 before I gave up and just had to say something.

To the OP:
A) your poll is poorly worded (I come from a research background here) and is biased towards your own view.  That'll be why most people "agree" with you, because they didn't necessarily read the whole diatribe you then spouted.
		
Click to expand...

I got this far before realising you are not worth answering as you are unnecesarily rude. I have an hons degree in psychology and therefore had to do a lot of research in my time too. I also can completely see through you and others of a similar disposition.


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## Wagtail (6 July 2011)

lexiedhb said:



			Blimey- so your horses spend alot of time in during wet weather- what a shame for them.
		
Click to expand...

No they are out all day every day. Come in at nights in winter.


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## Wagtail (6 July 2011)

honetpot said:



			We are on clay and live on the edge of a flood plain so some of the land get flooded some years to a depth of two feet. 
 My animals are out all year, you just have to close your eyes to the mud, have a scarifice paddock and acccept that you have to harrow and reseed in the spring. I have 6 on aproxiametly 5 acres. 
 If the mud is really bad I make islands of straw for them to stand on out of the wet, but I have never had any with mud fever even the TB. Come the spring they come onto a smaller area and the rest of the land is fertilised ,harrowed and seeded and even in this dry spring the grass has recovered.
 It does take some thinking about but I think they are better out than stood in a stable, even if the pasture is not perfect and sometime resembles a bog.
		
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I could not have my horses kept like that. I would have no liveries! Fine if that is what your own horses prefer, but mine would hate it. They go out every day in a large safe area free of mud and puddles and with pleanty of room for a canter and roll. I feel happier that they are not sliding about and risking injury due to mud. That is my own (and my liveries') preference. And yes, they do get the choice.


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## *hic* (6 July 2011)

Wagtail said:



			I got this far before realising you are not worth answering as you are unnecesarily rude. I have an hons degree in psychology and therefore had to do a lot of research in my time too. I also can completely see through you and others of a similar disposition.
		
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ROFLMFAO

What IS this person on


Has any one else spotted that the impresson given of a large livery yard with one horse per acre actually consists of seven acres, so presumably seven horses, several of which are the OP's own?


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## why1040 (6 July 2011)

Wagtail said:



			I got this far before realising you are not worth answering as you are unnecesarily rude. I have an hons degree in psychology and therefore had to do a lot of research in my time too. I also can completely see through you and others of a similar disposition.
		
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Well IBD...

I've actually never been accused of being rude before!  

I feel quite proud!

If we're going to compare qualifications, I have an Hons in Equine Industry Management (First), a dip HE in Nursing and 7 years of writing and conducting clinical pharmaceutical studies.  I know my research and I know my science.

And I'm sorry, but assuming that everyone who allows their horses to lose condition in the winter is managing their horses poorly (which is what you said in your OP) is a diatribe (A forceful and bitter verbal attack against someone or something. Courtesy Dictionary.com).  

Your science remains dodgy.  You come out with personal opinion and claim that it's fact.  And you do constantly change the goalposts.


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## jhoward (6 July 2011)

Wagtail said:



			I got this far before realising you are not worth answering as you are unnecesarily rude. I have an hons degree in psychology and therefore had to do a lot of research in my time too. I also can completely see through you and others of a similar disposition.
		
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this poster was not rude, they in fact posted as far as i can see a well thought out post, you how ever felt the need to big your slef up show lack of respect for any bodies opinion, its really not needed and if your so clever prehaps with your degree in psycology you could respond with an intelligent well though out reply, as for much of this thread im enjoying the debates. much smarter than being rude. 

now i have read all of this post and i would like to ask. 

you say
_Ours will have the odd day out in the fields in winter and very early spring if it has been dry enough and the ground is not frozen._

but then you say your horses never miss a days turnout, if you are suffereing with the conditon of your horses, many of which if im not mistaken are liveries then prehaps you need to listen to some of the posts on here and the forum in general about the managment of the diet, as it would seem that your ways are not working. 

i do think.. to agree with you on one thing about the turnout space a lot does depend on the land, size of horse, shod/unshod etc.


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## martlin (6 July 2011)

jemima_too said:



			ROFLMFAO

What IS this person on


Has any one else spotted that the impresson given of a large livery yard with one horse per acre actually consists of seven acres, so presumably seven horses, several of which are the OP's own?
		
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Oh, yes, Jemima  and a little bit of imaginative googling will easily bring you to the right website, too


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## Wagtail (6 July 2011)

martlin said:



			Oh, yes, Jemima  and a little bit of imaginative googling will easily bring you to the right website, too 

Click to expand...

I have a website? That's news to me.


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## *hic* (6 July 2011)

martlin said:



			Oh, yes, Jemima  and a little bit of imaginative googling will easily bring you to the right website, too 

Click to expand...

Oooh I hadn't thought of that. 

Very interesting

I have now found out though that this person prefers novices for the five spaces she has for liveries on her yard. Wonder why that would be then!


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## martlin (6 July 2011)

jemima_too said:



			Oooh I hadn't thought of that. 

Very interesting

I have now found out though that this person prefers novices for the five spaces she has for liveries on her yard. Wonder why that would be then!
		
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Easier to brainwash


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## Baggybreeches (6 July 2011)

why1040 said:



			Well IBD...

I've actually never been accused of being rude before!  

I feel quite proud!

If we're going to compare qualifications, I have an Hons in Equine Industry Management (First), a dip HE in Nursing and 7 years of writing and conducting clinical pharmaceutical studies.  I know my research and I know my science.

And I'm sorry, but assuming that everyone who allows their horses to lose condition in the winter is managing their horses poorly (which is what you said in your OP) is a diatribe (A forceful and bitter verbal attack against someone or something. Courtesy Dictionary.com).  

Your science remains dodgy.  You come out with personal opinion and claim that it's fact.  And you do constantly change the goalposts.
		
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why1040, are you actually my 'other' personality? You say so eloquently what I am thinking but can't be bothered to write in reply. If wagtail doesn't appreciate your contribution to the thread I sure as hell do. And FWIW I am pretty sure you haven't been rude either?


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## Enfys (6 July 2011)

Wagtail said:



			I have a website? That's news to me. 

Click to expand...

Oh, not yours? Shame, because it is a little cracking yard.

Wagtail, I have a question, perfectly civil and purely just out of curiosity on my part. You said that you fed five times a day, how on earth do you manage to do anything else (house, shopping, social life etc, etc) during the day if you are tied to a regime like that, or do you keep staff as well?


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## Amymay (6 July 2011)

Wagtail said:



			I got this far before realising you are not worth answering as you are unnecesarily rude. I have an hons degree in psychology and therefore had to do a lot of research in my time too. I also can completely see through you and others of a similar disposition.
		
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Actually Wagtail, Why1040 made a very well worded post.  She disagreed with you - but was not rude in any way.


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## Rollin (6 July 2011)

I have not read all the posts.

Just to say my first horse was 15 years old when I bought him.  He lost so much condition in winter he was kept stabled and became unrideable.

He is now 32 years old never bucked after I bought him and never loses condition in winter - just a little bit that is managed.  I keep him warm let him gain some weight in October and lose some weight before spring grass.  I adjust feed with seasons.

He has never given me a vet bill.


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## Zebedee (6 July 2011)

Oh dear Wagtail...................feed them 5 times a day? They'll never pass the 5 stage vetting you insist on before any piece of serious work or competiton if you do that ! There wouldn't be time beween meals for a start !

FWIW nature dictates that horses (& in particular ponies) lose weight in the winter & put it back on in the spring. Of course most of us are far too clever to let that happen, so we rug, & feed to keep their weight up. This is a good thing however, because trying to stop them gaining even more weight when the spring grass comes through gives us something to do.


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## joeanne (6 July 2011)

Wagtail said:



			I got this far before realising you are not worth answering as you are unnecesarily rude. I have an hons degree in psychology and therefore had to do a lot of research in my time too. I also can completely see through you and others of a similar disposition.
		
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That roughly translates as:
Why1040....as you are far cleverer than I am, and I can't fool you with my psychobabble, I shall brand you as rude thus avoid answering some very logical questions.....

Would you like a spade Wagtail or are you ok to continue digging that rather large hole with your bare hands?


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## *hic* (6 July 2011)

joeanne said:



			That roughly translates as:
Why1040....as you are far cleverer than I am, and I can't fool you with my psychobabble, I shall brand you as rude thus avoid answering some very logical questions.....

Would you like a spade Wagtail or are you ok to continue digging that rather large hole with your bare hands?
		
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Oops, there goes my coffee all over the screen!

Wagtail I'm still imagining you with your fingers in your ears mumbling "La la la I can't hear you".

It's a long time since you announced you were "putting this thread to bed". If you can't leave it alone may I suggest you take up joeanne's very kind offer of a spade?


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## Maesfen (6 July 2011)

Wagtail said:



			I got this far before realising you are not worth answering as you are unnecesarily rude. I have an hons degree in psychology and therefore had to do a lot of research in my time too. I also can completely see through you and others of a similar disposition.
		
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Wagtail, you're so entertaining.  Such a shame that you can't recognise  - or accept - constructive criticism.  The post you're complaining about was very well written with not a rude word or comment in it; such a shame that you can't accept that.


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## spaniel (6 July 2011)

Wagtail said:



			I got this far before realising you are not worth answering as you are unnecesarily rude. I have an hons degree in psychology and therefore had to do a lot of research in my time too. I also can completely see through you and others of a similar disposition.
		
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Well its not often that im reduced to hysterical laughter at my desk but Wagtail you did it.

A degree in fairystudies.....I now have a complete picture of you.  I cant take anything you say seriously, sorry..........


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## lexiedhb (6 July 2011)

Just out of curiosity- what is the average time your liveries stay with you for Wagtail?


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## Wagtail (6 July 2011)

Enfys said:



			Oh, not yours? Shame, because it is a little cracking yard.

Wagtail, I have a question, perfectly civil and purely just out of curiosity on my part. You said that you fed five times a day, how on earth do you manage to do anything else (house, shopping, social life etc, etc) during the day if you are tied to a regime like that, or do you keep staff as well?
		
Click to expand...

Regarding the yard. I think I know the one you mean. This is getting into very serious territory and I will be dropping them an email pointing them to this thread. I am not aiming this at you BTW but Martlin.

Yes, I feed haylage five times a day in the winter. It is now summer and only feed it twice (if the grass is poor as now).


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## Wagtail (6 July 2011)

lexiedhb said:



			Just out of curiosity- what is the average time your liveries stay with you for Wagtail?
		
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Oh, about a week. That's good, no?


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## Wagtail (6 July 2011)

spaniel said:



			Well its not often that im reduced to hysterical laughter at my desk but Wagtail you did it.

A degree in fairystudies.....I now have a complete picture of you.  I cant take anything you say seriously, sorry..........
		
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That's okay. I'm cool with that.


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## lexiedhb (6 July 2011)

Wagtail said:



			Oh, about a week. That's good, no?
		
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I was just wondering as most folk I know would not stay somewhere where their horses did not have access to their field in wet weather..... but if you want to think of it as a personal dig- feel free.


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## Wagtail (6 July 2011)

lexiedhb said:



			I was just wondering as most folk I know would not stay somewhere where their horses did not have access to their field in wet weather..... but if you want to think of it as a personal dig- feel free. 

Click to expand...

Yes they absolutely hate it here.


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## lexiedhb (6 July 2011)

Wagtail said:



			Yes they absolutely hate it here. 

Click to expand...

Do you actually read posts? or just what you want to read?

You have stated you do not put horses out in mud- but they are out all day in winter- where? a pen? I'm just saying it would not be MY first choice, or that of many horsey folk I know......


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## Amymay (6 July 2011)

lexiedhb said:



			You have stated you do not put horses out in mud- but they are out all day in winter- where? a pen? I'm just saying it would not be MY first choice, or that of many horsey folk I know......
		
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Wagtail has stated some time back that horses are turned out in a pen (or it may have been the school) - anyway not a field.


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## lexiedhb (6 July 2011)

Due to horse dissolving mud?


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## martlin (6 July 2011)

Wagtail said:



			Regarding the yard. I think I know the one you mean. This is getting into very serious territory and I will be dropping them an email pointing them to this thread. I am not aiming this at you BTW but Martlin.
		
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And am I supposed to feel scared? What serious territory have you got in mind?


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## Fii (6 July 2011)

I would just like to clarify my post.
 Edit.
 But whats the point!


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## joeanne (6 July 2011)

Fii said:



			I would just like to clarify my post.
 Edit.
 But whats the point!
		
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Would you like to share the brick wall we are all bashing our heads on Fii?


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## Tinypony (6 July 2011)

why1040 said:



			Okay, I got to page 26 before I gave up and just had to say something.

To the OP:
A) your poll is poorly worded (I come from a research background here) and is biased towards your own view.  That'll be why most people "agree" with you, because they didn't necessarily read the whole diatribe you then spouted.  Had I not actually read the rest of the thread (well okay, most of it) I probably would have clicked the wrong choice too.

B) your science is dodgy and you put your own beliefs in as fact.

C) you are constantly changing the goalposts, which makes it quite hard to discuss anything with you because we don't know what you ACTUALLY mean!

There's a massive difference between losing a bit of weight over winter and going into starvation mode (which does slow the metabolism).  It takes a LOT of weight loss to go into starvation mode.  It has been proven scientifically that horses' metabolism goes UP in winter.  It only goes DOWN if SIGNIFICANT weight loss (ie starvation) is achieved.  Thus your statement that constant losing and gaining of weight is a bad thing is actually not proven.  Whereas several studies show that losing some weight in winter is a good thing.

It makes sense nutritionally to keep our horses eating as naturally as is possible considering their circumstances, because that's how they were designed to be fed.  Hence why things are changing so we trickle feed more, add more roughage, etc.  So why are you so against the concept that horses were designed to lose a bit of weight in the winter for their health?  

You can say that you were aiming to hear from the people who are just skimping on their horses' diets all you like, as that's not what you stated originally, that's just backtracking I'm afraid.  Your statement was that weight loss during the winter is down to poor management.  It's not.  It's good management.  Except where it isn't because there is already poor management.
		
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Where's the like button?  Complete common sense.


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## Wagtail (6 July 2011)

martlin said:



			And am I supposed to feel scared? What serious territory have you got in mind?
		
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I don't know Martlin. You are encouraging people to google a business website. You are not anonymous yourself, and if someone emails them and points them to this thread it could be seen as defamatory. They could sue. If it is the website I think it is, they look like they would have the money too. Just saying. It's one thing having an argument on a forum, a complete new ball game making assumptions about real identities (right or wrong) and thinking it clever to do this on a public forum. To think that you are an instructor too and you behave like this?


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## Maesfen (6 July 2011)

Lol, watch it Tiny else you'll be off Wagtail's Christmas card list too.....like most of us that dare to disagree with her.


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## Baggybreeches (6 July 2011)

Maesfen said:



			Lol, watch it Tiny else you'll be off Wagtail's Christmas card list too.....like most of us that dare to disagree with her.
		
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Is that why I don't get many Christmas cards then?


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## martlin (6 July 2011)

It's OK Wagtail, I don't aim to be anonymous. 
Defamatory? the only words put here were that it's a cracking yard...
But, feel free to e-mail them.

ETS: I am delighted every time somebody googles my website, after all, that's what it is there for - for other people to see


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## Amymay (6 July 2011)

Wagtail said:



			I don't know Martlin. You are encouraging people to google a business website. You are not anonymous yourself, and if someone emails them and points them to this thread it could be seen as defamatory.
		
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The clue is in the words business and website......

And there has been no defamation within this post - unless you are just trying to stir it to get it removed.  Which if that is the case, is very ungracious of you


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## Ibblebibble (6 July 2011)

gosh is it illegal to google websites now


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## joeanne (6 July 2011)

Ibblebibble said:



			gosh is it illegal to google websites now

Click to expand...

Not as illegal as disagreeing with Wagtail though....


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## Wagtail (6 July 2011)

martlin said:



			It's OK Wagtail, I don't aim to be anonymous. 
Defamatory? the only words put here were that it's a cracking yard...
But, feel free to e-mail them.

ETS: I am delighted every time somebody googles my website, after all, that's what it is there for - for other people to see 

Click to expand...

And you think that you give out a professional impression on here, do you?

And don't worry, I _will_ be emailing them or any other yard that you imply I might own, if I see it again on here.


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## rhino (6 July 2011)

Wagtail said:



			And you think that you give out a professional impression on here, do you?

And don't worry, I _will_ be emailing them or any other yard that you imply I might own, if I see it again on here.
		
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Absolutely, I would happily send a horse to martlin. Unlike.... others


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## martlin (6 July 2011)

Wagtail said:



			And you think that you give out a professional impression on here, do you?

And don't worry, I _will_ be emailing them or any other yard that you imply I might own, if I see it again on here.
		
Click to expand...

What I think, Wagtail, is none of your business, frankly. 
Off you trot to do your e-mailing now, chop, chop.


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## Amymay (6 July 2011)

Wagtail said:



			And don't worry, I _will_ be emailing them or any other yard that you imply I might own, if I see it again on here.
		
Click to expand...


Mind boggles.  Not sure what you think will happen, as no one has made any criticsm of any yards.......


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## spaniel (6 July 2011)

Martlin Im so sorry,  I just Googled your website and had a look.......*holds hands out for cuffs*   its a fair cop.


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## Lady La La (6 July 2011)

amymay said:



			Mind boggles.  Not sure what you think will happen, as no one has made any criticsm of any yards.......

Click to expand...

This. I can imagine the email now..

"Someone mentioned something about being able to google your yard online, they also said it looked like a cracking yard."

...

'Ok... thanks for the err... warning.'


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## martlin (6 July 2011)

spaniel said:



			Martlin Im so sorry,  I just Googled your website and had a look.......*holds hands out for cuffs*   its a fair cop.
		
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you'll be hearing from my solicitors.... 
as soon as I Google you and find your address, that is


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## Enfys (6 July 2011)

_Quote:
Originally Posted by Enfys  
Oh, not yours? Shame, because it is a cracking little yard.

Wagtail, I have a question, perfectly civil and purely just out of curiosity on my part. You said that you fed five times a day, how on earth do you manage to do anything else (house, shopping, social life etc, etc) during the day if you are tied to a regime like that, or do you keep staff as well? 

Regarding the yard. I think I know the one you mean. This is getting into very serious territory and I will be dropping them an email pointing them to this thread. I am not aiming this at you BTW but Martlin.

Yes, I feed haylage five times a day in the winter. It is now summer and only feed it twice (if the grass is poor as now). _


I don't believe that anything derogatory in the least has been said about the yard I am thinking of, in fact, quite the opposite.

Mine all have access to hay as well, all year, but mainly round bales, I simply could not find the time to feed over 20 horses in 7 paddocks several times a day.


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## Wagtail (6 July 2011)

No, should I decide to email them I would say words to this effect:

Dear ------, as a member of the H&H forum, I have had a number of disagreements over horse management issues with a small minority who like to ridicule other members when the opportunity arises. I feel you should be aware that one member (Martlin) is implying that my identity 'Wagtail' is in fact yourselves. By implying that I am the owner of your yard then anything said to defame me is a defamation of yourselves. Should you want any further information, please let me know. I would be pleased to help.


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## Dolcé (6 July 2011)

why1040 said:



			Okay, I got to page 26 before I gave up and just had to say something.

To the OP:
A) your poll is poorly worded (I come from a research background here) and is biased towards your own view.  That'll be why most people "agree" with you, because they didn't necessarily read the whole diatribe you then spouted.  Had I not actually read the rest of the thread (well okay, most of it) I probably would have clicked the wrong choice too.

B) your science is dodgy and you put your own beliefs in as fact.

C) you are constantly changing the goalposts, which makes it quite hard to discuss anything with you because we don't know what you ACTUALLY mean!

There's a massive difference between losing a bit of weight over winter and going into starvation mode (which does slow the metabolism).  It takes a LOT of weight loss to go into starvation mode.  It has been proven scientifically that horses' metabolism goes UP in winter.  It only goes DOWN if SIGNIFICANT weight loss (ie starvation) is achieved.  Thus your statement that constant losing and gaining of weight is a bad thing is actually not proven.  Whereas several studies show that losing some weight in winter is a good thing.

It makes sense nutritionally to keep our horses eating as naturally as is possible considering their circumstances, because that's how they were designed to be fed.  Hence why things are changing so we trickle feed more, add more roughage, etc.  So why are you so against the concept that horses were designed to lose a bit of weight in the winter for their health?  

You can say that you were aiming to hear from the people who are just skimping on their horses' diets all you like, as that's not what you stated originally, that's just backtracking I'm afraid.  Your statement was that weight loss during the winter is down to poor management.  It's not.  It's good management.  Except where it isn't because there is already poor management.
		
Click to expand...


Wagtail, I pointed out several pages back that the horses metabolism goes up in winter due to the cold and you totally ignored that too!  I for one would have been genuinely interested to see you reply to this, I don't have a degree or a research background but knew this to be correct because I understand the way a horse's system works, something I looked into when researching equine nutrition to make sure I did the best I could for my horses!  I think the response you gave left you wide open to ridicule because WHY1040 was not rude and it just looked like you were making excuses because you knew you were wrong regarding this.  If you had the guts to admit when you were wrong then you may be taken a little more seriously.  Personally I think you probably have a lot of experience that you should be able to share, but you need to be cautious to make sure that what is your opinion and what is fact is clear, in order to avoid novices following you and making mistakes.  You do appear to quote 'facts' that are actually just your opinion and in some cases have been wrong.   It is not so bad to back down and can be done honourably rather than just making yourself look silly by continuing to stand by facts that have been proven to be incorrect.


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## PopStrop (6 July 2011)

Wagtail said:



			No, should I decide to email them I would say words to this effect:

Dear ------, as a member of the H&H forum, I have had a number of disagreements over horse management issues with a small minority who like to ridicule other members when the opportunity arises. I feel you should be aware that one member (Martlin) is implying that my identity 'Wagtail' is in fact yourselves. By implying that I am the owner of your yard then anything said to defame me is a defamation of yourselves. Should you want any further information, please let me know. I would be pleased to help.
		
Click to expand...

But Martlin didn't name any yard.... just said your website could be found with some imaginative googling I believe? YOU'RE the one who has jumped to conclusions about which yard is being discussed...


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## spaniel (6 July 2011)

Wagtail said:



			No, should I decide to email them I would say words to this effect:

Dear ------, as a member of the H&H forum, I have had a number of disagreements over horse management issues with a small minority who like to ridicule other members when the opportunity arises. I feel you should be aware that one member (Martlin) is implying that my identity 'Wagtail' is in fact yourselves. By implying that I am the owner of your yard then anything said to defame me is a defamation of yourselves. Should you want any further information, please let me know. I would be pleased to help.
		
Click to expand...

Well I will save you the trouble of emailing then wagtail.

I can state that Wagtail is NOT the yard owner of the nice looking yard that Martlin may have alluded to in a past comment. 

There.....are we all happy now?


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## Dolcé (6 July 2011)

Wagtail said:



			No, should I decide to email them I would say words to this effect:

Dear ------, as a member of the H&H forum, I have had a number of disagreements over horse management issues with a small minority who like to ridicule other members when the opportunity arises. I feel you should be aware that one member (Martlin) is implying that my identity 'Wagtail' is in fact yourselves. By implying that I am the owner of your yard then anything said to defame me is a defamation of yourselves. Should you want any further information, please let me know. I would be pleased to help.
		
Click to expand...


FGS Wagtail, assuming the yard you are thinking of emailing is a neighbour of yours, or even somewhere in the same county, just think about what you are saying.  It is bad enough making yourself look silly on here without moving it into real life too.


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## why1040 (6 July 2011)

Wagtail said:



			No, should I decide to email them I would say words to this effect:

Dear ------, as a member of the H&H forum, I have had a number of disagreements over horse management issues with a small minority who like to ridicule other members when the opportunity arises. I feel you should be aware that one member (Martlin) is implying that my identity 'Wagtail' is in fact yourselves. By implying that I am the owner of your yard then anything said to defame me is a defamation of yourselves. Should you want any further information, please let me know. I would be pleased to help.
		
Click to expand...

PML

No one has at any point named the yard in question, nor given any real detail as to how one would go about googling for it.

Also...defamation: the communication of a statement that makes a claim, expressly stated or implied to be factual, that may give an individual, business, product, group, government, or nation a negative image. It is usually a requirement that this claim be false and that the publication is communicated to someone other than the person defamed (the claimant). (courtesy of Wikipedia-I know, I know, but it was a good definition)

As far as I can see, no one has at any stage said anything that is demonstrably false.  Calling you on factual errors or disagreeing with your statements isn't defamation (nor is it rude, fyi).


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## martlin (6 July 2011)

PopStrop said:



			But Martlin didn't name any yard.... just said your website could be found with some imaginative googling I believe? YOU'RE the one who has jumped to conclusions about which yard is being discussed...
		
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Precisely 
I merely pointed out that one can easily find you on Google... If it's not true, you have absolutely nothing to worry about, do you now?


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## Wagtail (6 July 2011)

hch4971 said:



			Wagtail, I pointed out several pages back that the horses metabolism goes up in winter due to the cold and you totally ignored that too!  I for one would have been genuinely interested to see you reply to this, I don't have a degree or a research background but knew this to be correct because I understand the way a horse's system works, something I looked into when researching equine nutrition to make sure I did the best I could for my horses!  I think the response you gave left you wide open to ridicule because WHY1040 was not rude and it just looked like you were making excuses because you knew you were wrong regarding this.  If you had the guts to admit when you were wrong then you may be taken a little more seriously.  Personally I think you probably have a lot of experience that you should be able to share, but you need to be cautious to make sure that what is your opinion and what is fact is clear, in order to avoid novices following you and making mistakes.  You do appear to quote 'facts' that are actually just your opinion and in some cases have been wrong.   It is not so bad to back down and can be done honourably rather than just making yourself look silly by continuing to stand by facts that have been proven to be incorrect.
		
Click to expand...

I may well agree with every word. I do not know as I stopped reading after the first paragraph due to its histrionic tone. I will give the rest of it a read since you put it so politely.


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## Wagtail (6 July 2011)

martlin said:



			Precisely 
I merely pointed out that one can easily find you on Google... If it's not true, you have absolutely nothing to worry about, do you now? 

Click to expand...

I don't, no. But maybe you should think before you drag innocents into your battles. I always think it is extremely sinister character trait of some people on forums such as this when they start to try and impinge on others real lives, and something that I always make a point of highlighting whether it is about me or about any other member. I wonder what motivates these people? Bunny boiler comes to mind.


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## martlin (6 July 2011)

Dear Wagtail, I think you are imagining battles I am supposed to have. I'm nosy, comment on things I see fit to comment on and that's about it, really. 
I wonder why you want to split your life into real and... I don't know, imaginary perhaps?


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## spaniel (6 July 2011)

You didnt buy that degree on the internet did you Wagtail??!


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## Maesfen (6 July 2011)

Does this mean you are not that very smart yard that somebody mentioned they had googled earlier, how disappointing that must be for you to be mistaken for them or vice versa?


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## kerilli (6 July 2011)

Wagtail said:



			I don't, no. But maybe you should think before you drag innocents into your battles. I always think it is extremely sinister character trait of some people on forums such as this when they start to try and impinge on others real lives, and something that I always make a point of highlighting whether it is about me or about any other member. I wonder what motivates these people? Bunny boiler comes to mind.
		
Click to expand...

Yes, it does, but not with regards to Martlin!
Honestly, she gave NO details, and the only comments about the website she alluded to were positive anyway.
Seriously, are you just looking for anything to argue about, and then grabbing it and running with it? Most odd.


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## brighteyes (6 July 2011)

Wagtail said:



			I may well agree with every word. I do not know as I stopped reading after the first paragraph due to its histrionic tone. I will give the rest of it a read since you put it so politely.
		
Click to expand...

Are you sure it's 'histrionic' you mean?   You might be up for legal action if you infer someone to be 'attention-seeking' and seductively flirtatious' in a purely factual piece of writing!


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## brighteyes (6 July 2011)

Baggybreeches said:



			*standing ovation*
		
Click to expand...

Sit down, will you.  It's my turn to clap!


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## why1040 (6 July 2011)

brighteyes said:



			Are you sure it's 'histrionic' you mean?   You might be up for legal action if you infer someone to be 'attention-seeking' and seductively flirtatious' in a purely factual piece of writing!  

Click to expand...

LMAO!  I was most decidedly NOT seductively flirtatious!  

Are we back to discussing defamation?  

One might be tempted to think someone is avoiding certain issues...but that would be rude, wouldn't it?


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## jhoward (6 July 2011)

Wagtail said:



			No, should I decide to email them I would say words to this effect:

Dear ------, as a member of the H&H forum, I have had a number of disagreements over horse management issues with a small minority who like to ridicule other members when the opportunity arises. I feel you should be aware that one member (Martlin) is implying that my identity 'Wagtail' is in fact yourselves. By implying that I am the owner of your yard then anything said to defame me is a defamation of yourselves. Should you want any further information, please let me know. I would be pleased to help.
		
Click to expand...

my husband has spent much time in psyciatric units, I can give you some advice if needed?


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## Dolcé (6 July 2011)

why1040 said:



			One might be tempted to think someone is avoiding certain issues...but that would be rude, wouldn't it?  

Click to expand...

Really?


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## Wagtail (6 July 2011)

Okay, this is my reply Why1040 for you all to jump on. 



why1040 said:



			Okay, I got to page 26 before I gave up and just had to say something.

To the OP:
A) your poll is poorly worded (I come from a research background here) and is biased towards your own view.  That'll be why most people "agree" with you, because they didn't necessarily read the whole diatribe you then spouted.  Had I not actually read the rest of the thread (well okay, most of it) I probably would have clicked the wrong choice too.

*Having read my initial post again and the wording of the poll, I fail to see why it is at all unclear or what part of my post could be realistically described as a 'diatribe*

B) your science is dodgy and you put your own beliefs in as fact.
*Please show where I have stated that it is fact. They are my beliefs, yes.][/B

C) you are constantly changing the goalposts, which makes it quite hard to discuss anything with you because we don't know what you ACTUALLY mean!
No, the goal posts have remained the same throughout. As RutlandH2O has confirmed was his/her understanding too.

There's a massive difference between losing a bit of weight over winter and going into starvation mode (which does slow the metabolism).  It takes a LOT of weight loss to go into starvation mode.  It has been proven scientifically that horses' metabolism goes UP in winter.  It only goes DOWN if SIGNIFICANT weight loss (ie starvation) is achieved.  Thus your statement that constant losing and gaining of weight is a bad thing is actually not proven.  Whereas several studies show that losing some weight in winter is a good thing. I have seen MASSIVE weight losses on many horses supposedly cared for by experienced horse people. And they see nothing wrong with it. I agree that yes it is 'starvation mode' that lowers metabolism, but this can be triggered within a surprisingly small amount of time in humans (diet studies). I don't think there are any specific studies relating to horses and so yes, this is my belief that it would be similar across species as it is such a basic survival mechanism. 

It makes sense nutritionally to keep our horses eating as naturally as is possible considering their circumstances, because that's how they were designed to be fed.  Hence why things are changing so we trickle feed more, add more roughage, etc.  So why are you so against the concept that horses were designed to lose a bit of weight in the winter for their health?  

If a horse is too fat after summer then yes, some weight loss should be healthy. My argument was against horses dropping weight after being in GOOD condition. I still do not believe that dropping weight over winter is healthier for horses than maintaining a constant good condition throughout the year.

You can say that you were aiming to hear from the people who are just skimping on their horses' diets all you like, as that's not what you stated originally, that's just backtracking I'm afraid.  Your statement was that weight loss during the winter is down to poor management.  It's not.  It's good management.  Except where it isn't because there is already poor management. No, I asked a very simple question 'Is horses losing condition during winter usually down to poor management? The fact that I believe that SOME people allow their horses to do this for financial reasons is neither here nor there. I wanted to know what others thought. 11 % agreed that it WAS usually down to poor management and 50% agreed that it was usually down to poor management with a few exceptions. Leaving only 40% who disagreed.*

Click to expand...


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## Amymay (6 July 2011)

Wagtail, you're on a hiding to nothing.  I would really let it drop.


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## Wagtail (6 July 2011)

why1040 said:



			LMAO!  I was most decidedly NOT seductively flirtatious!  

Are we back to discussing defamation?  

One might be tempted to think someone is avoiding certain issues...but that would be rude, wouldn't it?  

Click to expand...

Look the word up.


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## *hic* (6 July 2011)

Well, ignoring all the rest as I really cba, lets deal with hard figures. 11% think poor mgt, 50% agree poor mgt with exceptions, 40% disagree. That is 101%. 

Lies, damned lies and statistics, eh?


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## Dolcé (6 July 2011)

jemima_too said:



			Well, ignoring all the rest as I really cba, lets deal with hard figures. 11% think poor mgt, 50% agree poor mgt with exceptions, 40% disagree. That is 101%. 

Lies, damned lies and statistics, eh?
		
Click to expand...

LOL, I work in statistics and I hate them!!


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## *hic* (6 July 2011)

hch4971 said:



			LOL, I work in statistics and I hate them!!
		
Click to expand...

LOL, I'm married to a statistician and I . . . oh hang on, no, I'm really rather fond of him


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## Tinypony (6 July 2011)

Oh stop it!  I'm supposed to be working.  Wagtail, seriously, get a grip.  )

I'm old-school, horses losing a bit of weight during winter is as it should be and an indication of good management in my opinion.  Made it a bit hard to decide about the survey.


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## brighteyes (6 July 2011)

Wagtail said:



			Look the word up. 

Click to expand...


I didn't need to, and it doesn't even fit with the less sensational 'meaning' - the post was FACTUAL and quite impartial, I thought.


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## Wagtail (6 July 2011)

hch4971 said:



			LOL, I work in statistics and I hate them!!
		
Click to expand...

She is quite right though. It doesn't add up . The number disagreeing has actually gone right down. It must be the persuasive nature of the massive majority of posts made by the 'disagree' minority.


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## Dolcé (6 July 2011)

Wagtail said:



			She is quite right though. It doesn't add up . The number disagreeing has actually gone right down. It must be the persuasive nature of the massive majority of posts made by the 'disagree' minority. 

Click to expand...

I hate them even more when they don't agree with what I think!


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## Amymay (6 July 2011)




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## Dolcé (6 July 2011)

amymay said:








Click to expand...

Now be nice!


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## *hic* (6 July 2011)

Wagtail said:



			She is quite right though. It doesn't add up . The number disagreeing has actually gone right down. It must be the persuasive nature of the massive majority of posts made by the 'disagree' minority. 

Click to expand...

Or just the massive number of new users you've created in order to vote and fudge the figures.


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## Dolcé (6 July 2011)

jemima_too said:



			Or just the massive number of new users you've created in order to vote and fudge the figures.
		
Click to expand...

Thanks for that, I've just spat coffee all over my blurdy laptop!!!


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## why1040 (6 July 2011)

I'm going to have to do this without the proper quotations as it won't let me quote a quote and I'm not really up on the proper scripts.  Thank you for replying.


A) your poll is poorly worded (I come from a research background here) and is biased towards your own view. That'll be why most people "agree" with you, because they didn't necessarily read the whole diatribe you then spouted. Had I not actually read the rest of the thread (well okay, most of it) I probably would have clicked the wrong choice too.

*Having read my initial post again and the wording of the poll, I fail to see why it is at all unclear or what part of my post could be realistically described as a 'diatribe*

_You say you've done research, but you can't spot a biased poll question?  A better question would have been "do you believe some weight loss over the winter to be healthy or unhealthy" or "can weight loss over the winter be attributed to X Y or Z" giving examples of reasons why people might allow their horses to lose a bit over the winter.  This leaves the bias out.  It is unclear what you're aiming at_

B) your science is dodgy and you put your own beliefs in as fact.
*Please show where I have stated that it is fact. They are my beliefs, yes.*

_You have on several occasions stated that horses losing weight is bad for them because it slows their metabolism.  You stated that as a fact (I'm sorry, I'm not wading through 37 pages of posts to quote every single time), just as a starter.  You have done the same with several other "facts"._

C) you are constantly changing the goalposts, which makes it quite hard to discuss anything with you because we don't know what you ACTUALLY mean!
*No, the goal posts have remained the same throughout. As RutlandH2O has confirmed was his/her understanding too*.  

_You were the one who suddenly introduced the idea that you wanted to hear the excuses of those who just let their horses lose weight because they were cheap several pages in.  That's definitely moving the goalposts.  One person agreeing with you doesn't make you right, it means one person read it the way you were thinking it.  The rest of us quite clearly don't.  The way it sounds in your head isn't always the way it comes across on the net._

There's a massive difference between losing a bit of weight over winter and going into starvation mode (which does slow the metabolism). It takes a LOT of weight loss to go into starvation mode. It has been proven scientifically that horses' metabolism goes UP in winter. It only goes DOWN if SIGNIFICANT weight loss (ie starvation) is achieved. Thus your statement that constant losing and gaining of weight is a bad thing is actually not proven. Whereas several studies show that losing some weight in winter is a good thing. 

*I have seen MASSIVE weight losses on many horses supposedly cared for by experienced horse people. And they see nothing wrong with it. I agree that yes it is 'starvation mode' that lowers metabolism, but this can be triggered within a surprisingly small amount of time in humans (diet studies). I don't think there are any specific studies relating to horses and so yes, this is my belief that it would be similar across species as it is such a basic survival mechanism. *

_See, you're changing the goalposts again.  You didn't ask about MASSIVE weight loss, you asked about weight loss.  Starvation mode takes a huge reduction in necessary calories even in humans (whose body mass is smaller than a horse).  Starvation mode involves the body using up muscles as fuel, so we're talking about a VAST reduction in body weight, not allowing the horse to get a little ribby (do feel free to read up on starvation mode 
http://www.livestrong.com/article/458832-signs-symptoms-of-starvation-mode/
and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starvation_response

There is however a huge difference between a response in a 60kg human omnivore designed to eat a couple of times a day and a 600kg herbivore designed to eat pretty much all the time.  You can't compare apples with oranges.  Allowing the horse to lose a bit of weight over the winter (and incidentally we humans did this too before central heating and heaters) doesn't trigger a starvation response, it's just natural._

It makes sense nutritionally to keep our horses eating as naturally as is possible considering their circumstances, because that's how they were designed to be fed. Hence why things are changing so we trickle feed more, add more roughage, etc. So why are you so against the concept that horses were designed to lose a bit of weight in the winter for their health? 

*If a horse is too fat after summer then yes, some weight loss should be healthy. My argument was against horses dropping weight after being in GOOD condition. I still do not believe that dropping weight over winter is healthier for horses than maintaining a constant good condition throughout the year.*
_
See you didn't say that either.  Regardless, it's not a question of what you believe or don't believe.  Provide some actual scientific basis for that statement, or it is just a belief.  I can believe the grass is blue, it doesn't make it correct.  There is also a wide range of "good condition" for a horse.  They can be at the upper end and the lower end and it would still be losing weight-in some cases, quite a lot of weight.
_

You can say that you were aiming to hear from the people who are just skimping on their horses' diets all you like, as that's not what you stated originally, that's just backtracking I'm afraid. Your statement was that weight loss during the winter is down to poor management. It's not. It's good management. Except where it isn't because there is already poor management. 

*No, I asked a very simple question 'Is horses losing condition during winter usually down to poor management? The fact that I believe that SOME people allow their horses to do this for financial reasons is neither here nor there. I wanted to know what others thought. 11 % agreed that it WAS usually down to poor management and 50% agreed that it was usually down to poor management with a few exceptions. Leaving only 40% who disagreed.*

_Your statements in your OP and further along states that horses dropping condition is poor management.  You were the one that then brought in the idea that you'd worded it the way you had because you wanted to know about the ones who did it for financial reasons.   

You can't take that percentage as remotely accurate as I've already pointed out that your poll is wildly unscientific and biased.  The people who disagreed may have read the whole thread before voting rather than after-something I nearly did myself._

Now, I've not been rude, histrionic or anything else.  I'm simply pointing out fallacies and factual inaccuracies.


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## brighteyes (6 July 2011)

jemima_too said:



			Or just the massive number of new users you've created in order to vote and fudge the figures.
		
Click to expand...

I just voted, having forgotton that was the whole point of the thread!   I have tried to keep to the spirit of the thread, though.


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## brighteyes (6 July 2011)

why1040 said:



			I'm going to have to do this without the proper quotations as it won't let me quote a quote and I'm not really up on the proper scripts.  Thank you for replying.


A) your poll is poorly worded (I come from a research background here) and is biased towards your own view. That'll be why most people "agree" with you, because they didn't necessarily read the whole diatribe you then spouted. Had I not actually read the rest of the thread (well okay, most of it) I probably would have clicked the wrong choice too.

*Having read my initial post again and the wording of the poll, I fail to see why it is at all unclear or what part of my post could be realistically described as a 'diatribe*


_You say you've done research, but you can't spot a biased poll question?  A better question would have been "do you believe some weight loss over the winter to be healthy or unhealthy" or "can weight loss over the winter be attributed to X Y or Z" giving examples of reasons why people might allow their horses to lose a bit over the winter.  This leaves the bias out.  It is unclear what you're aiming at_

B) your science is dodgy and you put your own beliefs in as fact.
*Please show where I have stated that it is fact. They are my beliefs, yes.*

_You have on several occasions stated that horses losing weight is bad for them because it slows their metabolism.  You stated that as a fact (I'm sorry, I'm not wading through 37 pages of posts to quote every single time), just as a starter.  You have done the same with several other "facts"._

C) you are constantly changing the goalposts, which makes it quite hard to discuss anything with you because we don't know what you ACTUALLY mean!
*No, the goal posts have remained the same throughout. As RutlandH2O has confirmed was his/her understanding too*.  

_You were the one who suddenly introduced the idea that you wanted to hear the excuses of those who just let their horses lose weight because they were cheap several pages in.  That's definitely moving the goalposts.  One person agreeing with you doesn't make you right, it means one person read it the way you were thinking it.  The rest of us quite clearly don't.  The way it sounds in your head isn't always the way it comes across on the net._

There's a massive difference between losing a bit of weight over winter and going into starvation mode (which does slow the metabolism). It takes a LOT of weight loss to go into starvation mode. It has been proven scientifically that horses' metabolism goes UP in winter. It only goes DOWN if SIGNIFICANT weight loss (ie starvation) is achieved. Thus your statement that constant losing and gaining of weight is a bad thing is actually not proven. Whereas several studies show that losing some weight in winter is a good thing. 

*I have seen MASSIVE weight losses on many horses supposedly cared for by experienced horse people. And they see nothing wrong with it. I agree that yes it is 'starvation mode' that lowers metabolism, but this can be triggered within a surprisingly small amount of time in humans (diet studies). I don't think there are any specific studies relating to horses and so yes, this is my belief that it would be similar across species as it is such a basic survival mechanism. *

_See, you're changing the goalposts again.  You didn't ask about MASSIVE weight loss, you asked about weight loss.  Starvation mode takes a huge reduction in necessary calories even in humans (whose body mass is smaller than a horse).  Starvation mode involves the body using up muscles as fuel, so we're talking about a VAST reduction in body weight, not allowing the horse to get a little ribby (do feel free to read up on starvation mode 
http://www.livestrong.com/article/458832-signs-symptoms-of-starvation-mode/
and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starvation_response

There is however a huge difference between a response in a 60kg human omnivore designed to eat a couple of times a day and a 600kg herbivore designed to eat pretty much all the time.  You can't compare apples with oranges.  Allowing the horse to lose a bit of weight over the winter (and incidentally we humans did this too before central heating and heaters) doesn't trigger a starvation response, it's just natural._

It makes sense nutritionally to keep our horses eating as naturally as is possible considering their circumstances, because that's how they were designed to be fed. Hence why things are changing so we trickle feed more, add more roughage, etc. So why are you so against the concept that horses were designed to lose a bit of weight in the winter for their health? 

*If a horse is too fat after summer then yes, some weight loss should be healthy. My argument was against horses dropping weight after being in GOOD condition. I still do not believe that dropping weight over winter is healthier for horses than maintaining a constant good condition throughout the year.*
_
See you didn't say that either.  Regardless, it's not a question of what you believe or don't believe.  Provide some actual scientific basis for that statement, or it is just a belief.  I can believe the grass is blue, it doesn't make it correct.  There is also a wide range of "good condition" for a horse.  They can be at the upper end and the lower end and it would still be losing weight-in some cases, quite a lot of weight.
_

You can say that you were aiming to hear from the people who are just skimping on their horses' diets all you like, as that's not what you stated originally, that's just backtracking I'm afraid. Your statement was that weight loss during the winter is down to poor management. It's not. It's good management. Except where it isn't because there is already poor management. 

*No, I asked a very simple question 'Is horses losing condition during winter usually down to poor management? The fact that I believe that SOME people allow their horses to do this for financial reasons is neither here nor there. I wanted to know what others thought. 11 % agreed that it WAS usually down to poor management and 50% agreed that it was usually down to poor management with a few exceptions. Leaving only 40% who disagreed.*

_Your statements in your OP and further along states that horses dropping condition is poor management.  You were the one that then brought in the idea that you'd worded it the way you had because you wanted to know about the ones who did it for financial reasons.   

You can't take that percentage as remotely accurate as I've already pointed out that your poll is wildly unscientific and biased.  The people who disagreed may have read the whole thread before voting rather than after-something I nearly did myself._

Now, I've not been rude, histrionic or anything else.  I'm simply pointing out fallacies and factual inaccuracies.
		
Click to expand...

And you haven't resorted to applying incorrect adjectives by way of backhanded insults. Based on what you have written, you'd _never_ get into RADA


----------



## *hic* (6 July 2011)

why1040 said:



			I'm going to have to do this without the proper quotations as it won't let me quote a quote and I'm not really up on the proper scripts.  Thank you for replying.


A) your poll is poorly worded (I come from a research background here) and is biased towards your own view. That'll be why most people "agree" with you, because they didn't necessarily read the whole diatribe you then spouted. Had I not actually read the rest of the thread (well okay, most of it) I probably would have clicked the wrong choice too.

*Having read my initial post again and the wording of the poll, I fail to see why it is at all unclear or what part of my post could be realistically described as a 'diatribe*

_You say you've done research, but you can't spot a biased poll question?  A better question would have been "do you believe some weight loss over the winter to be healthy or unhealthy" or "can weight loss over the winter be attributed to X Y or Z" giving examples of reasons why people might allow their horses to lose a bit over the winter.  This leaves the bias out.  It is unclear what you're aiming at_

B) your science is dodgy and you put your own beliefs in as fact.
*Please show where I have stated that it is fact. They are my beliefs, yes.*

_You have on several occasions stated that horses losing weight is bad for them because it slows their metabolism.  You stated that as a fact (I'm sorry, I'm not wading through 37 pages of posts to quote every single time), just as a starter.  You have done the same with several other "facts"._

C) you are constantly changing the goalposts, which makes it quite hard to discuss anything with you because we don't know what you ACTUALLY mean!
*No, the goal posts have remained the same throughout. As RutlandH2O has confirmed was his/her understanding too*.  

_You were the one who suddenly introduced the idea that you wanted to hear the excuses of those who just let their horses lose weight because they were cheap several pages in.  That's definitely moving the goalposts.  One person agreeing with you doesn't make you right, it means one person read it the way you were thinking it.  The rest of us quite clearly don't.  The way it sounds in your head isn't always the way it comes across on the net._

There's a massive difference between losing a bit of weight over winter and going into starvation mode (which does slow the metabolism). It takes a LOT of weight loss to go into starvation mode. It has been proven scientifically that horses' metabolism goes UP in winter. It only goes DOWN if SIGNIFICANT weight loss (ie starvation) is achieved. Thus your statement that constant losing and gaining of weight is a bad thing is actually not proven. Whereas several studies show that losing some weight in winter is a good thing. 

*I have seen MASSIVE weight losses on many horses supposedly cared for by experienced horse people. And they see nothing wrong with it. I agree that yes it is 'starvation mode' that lowers metabolism, but this can be triggered within a surprisingly small amount of time in humans (diet studies). I don't think there are any specific studies relating to horses and so yes, this is my belief that it would be similar across species as it is such a basic survival mechanism. *

_See, you're changing the goalposts again.  You didn't ask about MASSIVE weight loss, you asked about weight loss.  Starvation mode takes a huge reduction in necessary calories even in humans (whose body mass is smaller than a horse).  Starvation mode involves the body using up muscles as fuel, so we're talking about a VAST reduction in body weight, not allowing the horse to get a little ribby (do feel free to read up on starvation mode 
http://www.livestrong.com/article/458832-signs-symptoms-of-starvation-mode/
and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starvation_response

There is however a huge difference between a response in a 60kg human omnivore designed to eat a couple of times a day and a 600kg herbivore designed to eat pretty much all the time.  You can't compare apples with oranges.  Allowing the horse to lose a bit of weight over the winter (and incidentally we humans did this too before central heating and heaters) doesn't trigger a starvation response, it's just natural._

It makes sense nutritionally to keep our horses eating as naturally as is possible considering their circumstances, because that's how they were designed to be fed. Hence why things are changing so we trickle feed more, add more roughage, etc. So why are you so against the concept that horses were designed to lose a bit of weight in the winter for their health? 

*If a horse is too fat after summer then yes, some weight loss should be healthy. My argument was against horses dropping weight after being in GOOD condition. I still do not believe that dropping weight over winter is healthier for horses than maintaining a constant good condition throughout the year.*
_
See you didn't say that either.  Regardless, it's not a question of what you believe or don't believe.  Provide some actual scientific basis for that statement, or it is just a belief.  I can believe the grass is blue, it doesn't make it correct.  There is also a wide range of "good condition" for a horse.  They can be at the upper end and the lower end and it would still be losing weight-in some cases, quite a lot of weight.
_

You can say that you were aiming to hear from the people who are just skimping on their horses' diets all you like, as that's not what you stated originally, that's just backtracking I'm afraid. Your statement was that weight loss during the winter is down to poor management. It's not. It's good management. Except where it isn't because there is already poor management. 

*No, I asked a very simple question 'Is horses losing condition during winter usually down to poor management? The fact that I believe that SOME people allow their horses to do this for financial reasons is neither here nor there. I wanted to know what others thought. 11 % agreed that it WAS usually down to poor management and 50% agreed that it was usually down to poor management with a few exceptions. Leaving only 40% who disagreed.*

_Your statements in your OP and further along states that horses dropping condition is poor management.  You were the one that then brought in the idea that you'd worded it the way you had because you wanted to know about the ones who did it for financial reasons.   

You can't take that percentage as remotely accurate as I've already pointed out that your poll is wildly unscientific and biased.  The people who disagreed may have read the whole thread before voting rather than after-something I nearly did myself._

Now, I've not been rude, histrionic or anything else.  I'm simply pointing out fallacies and factual inaccuracies.
		
Click to expand...

LIKE


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## skewby (6 July 2011)

I think this is the nastiest case of bullying I have ever seen on this forum (and have seen a few).  People should be ashamed of themselves, honestly.  Wagtail your responses are measured and I don't know how you have the patience but I hope you are as ok as you seem to be with this!


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## brighteyes (6 July 2011)

*Wagtail*  Why do you find it so difficult to accept that horses can look in the same excellent condition throughout winter and summer? That is very strange.
		
Click to expand...

Because it's not how they would do it! The fact it is the keeper who is interfering (further than is wise) to keep them thus, is a major contributing factor to the many metabolic issues we see today.  Combined with the ever-increasing and bewildering array of available mixes and supplements and proportionally decreasing basic knowledge of 'Joe horse-owner' (which ironically forms the underlying true interpretation of this thread's title poll) we have the reason for so much dietary-linked disease in the horse and pony population today.


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## brighteyes (6 July 2011)

skewby said:



			I think this is the nastiest case of bullying I have ever seen on this forum (and have seen a few).  People should be ashamed of themselves, honestly.  Wagtail your responses are measured and I don't know how you have the patience but I hope you are as ok as you seem to be with this!
		
Click to expand...

*Wagtail* has also resorted to thinly veiled insults, accusing one poster of 'histrionics'.  Hardly a flattering thing to say about the author of an easy to assimilate piece of scientific 'soundness' which contained no hints of vitriol or over dramatic/emotional undertones. In fact the OP openly admitted to having dismissed the majority of the reply purely due to it's attention-seeking tone.


----------



## Wagtail (6 July 2011)

skewby said:



			I think this is the nastiest case of bullying I have ever seen on this forum (and have seen a few).  People should be ashamed of themselves, honestly.  Wagtail your responses are measured and I don't know how you have the patience but I hope you are as ok as you seem to be with this!
		
Click to expand...

Thanks Skewby. Yes, they are quite a pack, aren't they? Thing is they are up in arms because I have touched a nerve.  No, it doesn't hurt me, but I am disappointed that people can act this way. I see it time and time again on this forum. Some poor sod makes an error or says something 'novicy' and they are ridiculed! The only time I really take it seriously is when people act like this and then start trying to guess who the real person is behind the identity they are attacking. That is when it starts to get sinister and pretty disturbing. If people can act like this on a forum what kind of people must they be in real life? Or is it a bit like 'road rage'? Very interesting really.

But Amymay is quite right. I AM on a hiding to nothing. Why I bother, I really don't know.


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## Serenity087 (6 July 2011)

Wagtail.

Can I just suggest something here.

It's a suggestion, mind.

You don't have to follow it.

But if you run such a fabulous livery yard and are such an expert, then you get off internet forums, stop having spats with people you don't know, and actually go and run this yard?

In the duration of this thread you have posted from 7am in the morning to goodness knows when at night.

Now I only have one horse, and I can't keep up with this thread for caring for my one horse.  So only the Gods must know how you can run a livery yard and post on here 25 hours a day...


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## Nocturnal (6 July 2011)

Whoa, look at this thing! I'm having flashbacks to the Totilas' shoes thread .

My two penneth would be that whilst in the wild horses would naturally drop weight over winter and have evolved to cope with this (kind of like humans used to...) they haven't evolved to cope with dropping weight in winter AND stay in full work. So no, I don't let my horse drop weight in the winter.

And I really can't see what the fuss is about!


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## skewby (6 July 2011)

Nocturnal said:



			And I really can't see what the fuss is about!
		
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Well flipping said!!!


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## Amymay (6 July 2011)

What nerve has been touched? 

Genuinly??


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## joeanne (6 July 2011)

BB if I didn't know otherwise I would have said Wagtail was a clever anagram for deluded!!!


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## teagreen (6 July 2011)

Wagtail - I don't mean to be mean at all (and I mean it!) but I do find the tone of your posts very patronising. You obviously have very strong opinions about things, which is fine, but there is something about your tone which strikes me as 'I know lots, you know nothing - look at my qualifications over the years!' and it just seems to rub people up the wrong way. Things seem to quickly descend into posts which shout "What a shame dear, you've resorted to personal insults " and the sarcasm coming from all corners is just too much!

Perhaps you should consider how you come across in posts. Even if you DO know everything and ARE genuinely smarter than everyone else on that post, it is good to come across as willing to accept corrections and opinions and to show that you don't have to be the best/most knowledgable/most experienced at all times...


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## henryhorn (6 July 2011)

Am I being deluded if I say I find the wording of your proposed message a bit of a fib ? 
ie "a small minority"   
Surely that should read a "huge majority"?   or
"Virtually everyone that has replied to my original post disagreed with me ? "  !!!!


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## touchstone (6 July 2011)

I don't know if I should post again in here or not, as it just seems to keep on going! 

However, as for the survival mechanisms of horses and humans, they really are quite different!  It was quoted that starvation mode would be triggered in a short space of time as it was in humans.

Horses have various adaptations that help them to survive in cold conditions, this article is quite informative:- http://www.paardnatuurlijk.nl/index_js.htm?http://www.paardnatuurlijk.nl/weetjes/howwarm.htm


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## Wagtail (6 July 2011)

Interesting article. I would like to see some proper peer reviewed research done into this as there does not appear to be any. One thing I completely agree with is that digesting lots of fibre makes horses warmer. That is another good reason, I feel to always ensure they have lots of hay or haylage if the grass is poor over the winter. Of course, horses are very different to humans regarding their digestion and metabolic rate amongst most other things. There is loads of research into the effectiveness of crash diets for humans and how they can actually cause people to gain weight quicker once they are off the diet. This may, or may not apply to horses. Personally I don't see why it shouldn't but that is just my opinion.


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## ChesnutsRoasting (6 July 2011)

Wagtail, although I disagreed with you on the poll, I think you have stood your ground exceptionally well. I see the BUMs (see a long ago post) are out in force and they like to give it out but seem to get incredibly poisonous when having to take it.  Such is life. Personally, I would tell them they are all right, thoroughly decent human beings and no offence taken at their rhetoric. Their aim will be to keep this thread going for as long as possible to enable them to vent whatever venom they have stored in their being and thus relieve themselves of it. Don't give them the pleasure.


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## skewby (6 July 2011)

blazingsaddles said:



			I see the BUMs (see a long ago post)
		
Click to expand...

???  Please explain!!  (Or provide link )


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## Wagtail (6 July 2011)

blazingsaddles said:



			Wagtail, although I disagreed with you on the poll, I think you have stood your ground exceptionally well. I see the BUMs (see a long ago post) are out in force and they like to give it out but seem to get incredibly poisonous when having to take it.  Such is life. Personally, I would tell them they are all right, thoroughly decent human beings and no offence taken at their rhetoric. Their aim will be to keep this thread going for as long as possible to enable them to vent whatever venom they have stored in their being and thus relieve themselves of it. Don't give them the pleasure.

Click to expand...

Thank you blazing saddles. So nice to read a mature post. Nothing at all wrong in having different opinions where horses are concerned. My closest friend and I are on different sides on many horsey issues! Just a shame that things get so nasty on here. I will take your advice and leave this thread to the BUMs. No good feeding them any more - wouldn't want them to gain too much weight.


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## Wagtail (6 July 2011)

skewby said:



			???  Please explain!!  (Or provide link )
		
Click to expand...

I think it's this one http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?p=9761479#post9761479


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## Amaranta (6 July 2011)

Wagtail said:



			I don't know Martlin. You are encouraging people to google a business website. You are not anonymous yourself, and if someone emails them and points them to this thread it could be seen as defamatory. They could sue. If it is the website I think it is, they look like they would have the money too. Just saying. It's one thing having an argument on a forum, a complete new ball game making assumptions about real identities (right or wrong) and thinking it clever to do this on a public forum. To think that you are an instructor too and you behave like this?
		
Click to expand...


Sorry but you are talking drivel - no one has said anything in the least bit defamatory (unless you think that it being perceived as YOUR yard is defamatory) au contrair people have said what a nice yard it is!


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## skewby (6 July 2011)

Wagtail said:



			I think it's this one http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?p=9761479#post9761479 

Click to expand...

Thank you for that.  Well summed-up blazingsaddles!


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## PapaFrita (6 July 2011)

bakedbean said:



			Selective ridicule of other members..mmmm..
Another classic case of Thread Diversion. If things aren't quite going in the direction that the OP had hoped for, then divert.
But, as a master of "moving the goalposts" i'm surprised you dont have a part time job with the ground staff at Man Utd.
		
Click to expand...

Ahh, but when one has no reasonable argument, the only remaining recourse is ridicule. Course if anyone else does it, it's bullying...


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## Serenity087 (6 July 2011)

Do you think Wagtail has followed my advice and gone down the yard to see her fabulously conditioned horses?

Cos she hasn't responded to me pondering the amount of time she spends on here and still manages to run a yard... 

My YO hasn't had time to sit down today and we only have 7 horses...


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## PapaFrita (6 July 2011)

bakedbean said:



			Ah  i must be a bully as i called the OP bonkers a couple of pages back.
		
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Well durr! 

On a more serious note, there are few things I hate more than double standards. If one is going to bleat about bullying, victimisation, ganging up, etc, one should probably not fall into the same trap, eh?


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## Serenity087 (6 July 2011)

P.S. - Do I count as the Founder of BUM?  As very few, Kieran, Giles and BBs, have come close to being banned as many times as I have!  And I told two of them how to ban evade!!

P.P.S. - I have never hidden my true identity... if people haven't twigged that Bundle and I both have amazingly similar horses and lifestyles then that's not my problem!!!


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## Baggybreeches (6 July 2011)

skewby said:



			I think this is the nastiest case of bullying I have ever seen on this forum (and have seen a few).  People should be ashamed of themselves, honestly.  Wagtail your responses are measured and I don't know how you have the patience but I hope you are as ok as you seem to be with this!
		
Click to expand...

Why do you ALWAYS claim that people are being bullied when people disagree with them? As far as I can see nobody has resorted to insults, we are all free to agree or disagree, in this instance more people disagree with the OP than agree with her, but she did post a poll!


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## why1040 (6 July 2011)

bakedbean said:



			Ah  i must be a bully as i called the OP bonkers a couple of pages back.
		
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As opposed of course to calling me rude and histrionic...

Seriously though...my post was certainly not meant to be unpleasant in any way and I'd really challenge anyone to find anything in it that was rude.  It was factual, but was ridiculed by the OP.  However, I will say again: it was not meant to be rude and IF the OP genuinely thought that it was somehow having a go at her, then I will apologise for that.  I would personally appreciate it if she'd take back her assertions that I'm rude or histrionic, but I won't hold my breath on that.

I don't have any issues with her choosing to keep her own horses in the same condition all year round.  That's entirely up to the individual.  What I think everyone has taken offense at is the assertion that anyone who doesn't must be managing their horses poorly.  THAT has been said over and over again and every fact, every scientific discussion after that has been to prove that this is incorrect.

Personally, I couldn't care less if someone wants to keep their horses blue with pink spots.  But if they tell everyone else that if they don't, they are damaging their horses, THEN it becomes a problem.  I would imagine that THAT is the "nerve" that has been touched.


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## blitznbobs (6 July 2011)

Thanks for the comments about the feeds for my horse... I'm ignoring the bickering... I forgot to mention if u stop feeding him slobbermash all( literally) his fur/ hair falls out( he's been seen by a equine dermatologist) and been presented as a case at the international conference of equine dermatology because of this and the only advice they could come up with is don't stop giving him slobbermash! So he gets 3 feeds all year round and barely maintains weight in the summer... I'd love to put extra weight on him over the summer but this just doesn't happen(it's a b^*^#}y good job he doesn't hot up on 4 buckets of corn a day cos he's a very big boy. Oh and his barley is micronised. I do worry about him tying up tho with all that corn and no work... Oh and he wears two of the highest tog rugs there are available when he's cold and is stabled quite a lot as he just mopes in the gate in bad weather asking to come in... Oh and I add liniseed to his non slobbermash feeds... Can't think of any way to get more calories in to him really... This is not thru lack of vet /nutritionist/ or willingness to buy feed- he gets thru 2 sacks of corn a week ( my other two don't get that between them in 3 months!)


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## Flame_ (6 July 2011)

Wagtail said:



			I think it's this one http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?p=9761479#post9761479 

Click to expand...

That is actually pretty funny. 

How did i miss this thread? I'm going to have to read it all now.


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## teddyt (6 July 2011)

Ibblebibble said:



			it's just us interfering humans who cause the problems.
		
Click to expand...

Agree with this



Ibblebibble said:



			comparing horses to dogs is silly, totally different feeding systems! horses are designed to feed almost continuously, little and often, dogs on the other hand are designed to eat larger meals farther apart, sometimes days apart in the wild!
		
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And this


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## skewby (6 July 2011)

Baggybreeches said:



			Why do you ALWAYS claim that people are being bullied when people disagree with them?
		
Click to expand...

Lol for someone with my paltry post count I'm flattered.  When have I claimed this?  And who are you I don't know your username, apols if I should.


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## skewby (6 July 2011)

bakedbean said:



			Oh Skewby 
and i thought we were getting on so well on FB.
		
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Gosh I naively thought you were banned!!  There's only one person you can be...an yes we were/are, we're clearly having a difference of opinion on this thread though.  We're big and ugly enough for that, aren't we?


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## Baggybreeches (6 July 2011)

skewby said:



			Lol for someone with my paltry post count I'm flattered.  When have I claimed this?  And who are you I don't know your username, apols if I should.
		
Click to expand...

I don't have any 'clout' so to speak, but whenever I come across your posts they are always accusing people of bullying someone


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## skewby (6 July 2011)

Baggybreeches said:



			I don't have any 'clout' so to speak, but whenever I come across your posts they are always accusing people of bullying someone 

Click to expand...

Quote please.  As I strongly dispute that.  Still flattered to be noticed tho, obv.


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## DragonSlayer (6 July 2011)

Well, thanks a flippin' lot....

I WAS meant to be working, but this damn thread has taken OVER AN HOUR!!! and now it's nearly bedtime....

BAD people....SHAME!!

Mind you, I've had 2 cups of tea, a bag of crisps and a packet of ginger creams to help me through it.... 

...and as for the original question...what the hell was it??


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## skewby (6 July 2011)

bakedbean said:



			one of us is, certainly!!  

Click to expand...

I'll take that as a compliment  I am still laughing at being named on a thread I'd never even seen, by a poster claiming I'd rear my "ugly head"!  Tho if I remember rightly, on doing a tad bit research, I found it to be by a BUM who took offence at my "alligater40(sic) she feckin wrecks this forum" thread


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## Trot_On_Dressage (6 July 2011)

Bug2007 said:



			Generally there is no reason as to why a horse should loose condition in the winter, you adjust feeding etc.... to reflect the conditions.

But I do believe in keeping the horses natural way of living asa close as possible and that is to include allowing them to drop some weight in the winter....NOTE drop weight not condition they ARE two different things!!!!

As if wild they would lose weight in the winter and then put it back on in the summer. You will rarely see a fat wild pony. Or for that matter one with laminatis.
		
Click to expand...

Havent read all the posts so apologise if this has already been said. Totally agree with this. Horses naturally lose weight in the winter. This is normal and what all creatures have endured over million of years. Im not talking about being thin or ribby just losing that summer grass belly. I am a usual reader of the posts on here and everyday someone is going on about how today soooooo many horses get lami etc and it must be down to what we feed them as didnt happen 50 years ago. Where the truth is probably down to horses being well fed and well rugged all year round. Pony gains to much weight through summer, then winter comes and there still being well fed and 3 rugs on so dont loose any weight, then next spring comes and more grass= fatter pony etc etc. Im not saying we shouldnt be feeding our ponies or not rugging them but i think the increase in laminitis we have seen over the years has a lot factors involved, and this is one o them!

Again, sorry if anyone else has said this!


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## Mince Pie (6 July 2011)

bakedbean said:



			Ahhh...but who is/was aligator40?
Was it confirmed she/he was a previously banned user? no i dont think it was.
As i remember, through lurking, that member (A40), was banned, not through breaking T&C's, but other members using a previously banned members RL name in association with a previously banned member, whilst replying on here, therefore leading Admin to assume said member was a previously banned member and then banning that member.

Clear? 

Click to expand...

Does that mean that A40 was JM07?


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## Dolcé (6 July 2011)

broke_but_happy said:



			Does that mean that A40 was JM07?
		
Click to expand...

Did JM07 used to be JM7?


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## jhoward (6 July 2011)

bakedbean said:



			Ahhh...but who is/was aligator40?
Was it confirmed she/he was a previously banned user? no i dont think it was.
As i remember, through lurking, that member (A40), was banned, not through breaking T&C's, but other members using a previously banned members RL name in association with a previously banned member, whilst replying on here, therefore leading Admin to assume said member was a previously banned member and then banning that member.

Clear? 

Click to expand...

*snorts*



broke_but_happy said:



			Does that mean that A40 was JM07?
		
Click to expand...

no no of course not that a40 was giles. wasnt it


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## showqa (6 July 2011)

I agree with what you have pointed out here Trot on Dressage. Fact is, a horse has rarely lost its' life through being a bit underweight wheras there are many these days for whom a few extra pounds really is life threatening.

Likewise, I think we have become slightly conditioned to expect and desire rounded horses. Just like humans no two horses are the same, and what is "normal" for one is clearly "abnormal" for another. I honestly think that to generalise about any element of horsecare, rather than judging each as an individual, and judging them on a daily basis, is a dangerous route to follow in any case.


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## Dolcé (6 July 2011)

bakedbean said:



			Alledgedly 

Click to expand...

I liked JM7, came out with a lot of sense during the spindles ruck


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## Trot_On_Dressage (6 July 2011)

showqa said:



			I agree with what you have pointed out here Trot on Dressage. Fact is, a horse has rarely lost its' life through being a bit underweight wheras there are many these days for whom a few extra pounds really is life threatening.

Likewise, I think we have become slightly conditioned to expect and desire rounded horses. Just like humans no two horses are the same, and what is "normal" for one is clearly "abnormal" for another. I honestly think that to generalise about any element of horsecare, rather than judging each as an individual, and judging them on a daily basis, is a dangerous route to follow in any case.
		
Click to expand...

Im glad someone else thinks the same!


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## Natch (6 July 2011)

I thought jm07 was tfc!?


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## Dolcé (6 July 2011)

Naturally said:



			I thought jm07 was tfc!? 

Click to expand...

AW, I heard that too, but then thought it couldn't have been after the ban - or was that just a ruse??????


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## CorvusCorax (6 July 2011)

Naturally said:



			I thought jm07 was tfc!? 

Click to expand...

WTF?!


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## YorksG (6 July 2011)

Oh my goodness, this is going to turn into a 'Sparticus' thread now isn;t it


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## YorksG (6 July 2011)

Well I might be if I could spell it! It could indeed get messy


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## Dolcé (6 July 2011)

YorksG said:



			Oh my goodness, this is going to turn into a 'Sparticus' thread now isn;t it  

Click to expand...


I'm not Spartacus


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## MaisieMooandCometToo (6 July 2011)

Oh dear, I must be an awful horse owner. 
My experience is that winters are hard. My pony isn't a particularly good doer at the best of times (despite being a section D!) so come winter when there's no grass in the field, the weight starts plummeting. However stabling isn't ideal due to his COPD and hip injury. I have found that our current yard's regime of alternative turnout, whilst whined about by other liveries, is the best for balancing his needs. He gets adlib haylage one day and he gets to stretch with fresh air the next, both days with high energy feeds. He refuses to be clipped which is a nightmare as he works a fair amount throughout winter so he's rugged to prevent the growth of an uncomfortable mammoth coat and it also prevents him from shivering off any fat to keep warm (but please don't think he overheats, he never comes in with sweat under his rugs and if he ever did he would have the next weight down on him!!) Last winter was quite successful, yes he was skinnier than in the summer and yes it's damned hard work keeping him in condition but I've never seen him without a shine to his coat.

Our mare thankfully just has to be fed a bit more and she's more than happy to chill in a stable if need be (such as when it's her turn to be in the muck heap field!!)


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## Dolcé (6 July 2011)

bakedbean said:



			There is guaranteed to be at least 1....

Click to expand...

LOL, couldn't resist!


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## YorksG (6 July 2011)

bakedbean said:



			what is a vowel between friends, eh? 

Click to expand...

*'m c*ns*d*r*ng n*t *s*ng th*m *t *ll *n f*t*r


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## Mince Pie (7 July 2011)

YorksG said:



			*'m c*ns*d*r*ng n*t *s*ng th*m *t *ll *n f*t*r   

Click to expand...

And if I understood that correctly you missed a * at the end too!


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## Dolcé (7 July 2011)

broke_but_happy said:



			And if I understood that correctly you missed a * at the end too!
		
Click to expand...

LOL, brilliant


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## CrazyHorse! (7 July 2011)

I Agree With YouCompletly, There Is No Reason, I Have A 23 Yeah Old Arab Mare, And Shes Is A Beautiful Unblivable Condition! 
I Dont Think She Has Ever Been Wintered In, Well, Atleast No In My Books  Im Thinking That Next Summer I Do Need To Stable Her, Only Due To Her Age, And Since We Live In Northern Ireland, Not The Very Best Of Winters  But Then Again, She Still Will Be In An Amazing Condiontion, Theres No Reason Why She Shouldnt Be! 
Clo


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## Enfys (7 July 2011)

bakedbean said:



			i like you.

probably now means you will be tarred with BUM brush and for that i apologise in advance, why1040 

Click to expand...

Bum Brush, the mental image!!!   
	
	
		
		
	


	





OFGS! I've just choked on my coffee, LMAO here.


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## Enfys (7 July 2011)

deleted


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## Natch (7 July 2011)

But who is the messiah?

Enfus; thats a priceless smiley!


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## Natch (7 July 2011)

Oh no, the vowels are rebelling against me too!


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## Mince Pie (7 July 2011)

Naturally said:



			Oh no, the vowels are rebelling against me too! 

Click to expand...

"If there's one thing I can't stand, it's loose vowels.." 

(For anyone who has seen Nanny McPhee)


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## bensababy (7 July 2011)

broke_but_happy said:



			"If there's one thing I can't stand, it's loose vowels.." 

(For anyone who has seen Nanny McPhee)
		
Click to expand...

Love Nanny McPhee


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## spaniel (7 July 2011)

Bum brush.......fnar.....snigger.....hehehehe

sorry


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## Enfys (7 July 2011)

spaniel said:



			Bum brush.......fnar.....snigger.....hehehehe

sorry
		
Click to expand...

Good for loose vowels ?


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## martlin (7 July 2011)

Enfys said:



			Good for loose vowels ?
		
Click to expand...

pmsl


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## brighteyes (7 July 2011)

Trot_On_Dressage said:



			Havent read all the posts so apologise if this has already been said. Totally agree with this. Horses naturally lose weight in the winter. This is normal and what all creatures have endured over million of years. Im not talking about being thin or ribby just losing that summer grass belly. I am a usual reader of the posts on here and everyday someone is going on about how today soooooo many horses get lami etc and it must be down to what we feed them as didnt happen 50 years ago. Where the truth is probably down to horses being well fed and well rugged all year round. Pony gains to much weight through summer, then winter comes and there still being well fed and 3 rugs on so dont loose any weight, then next spring comes and more grass= fatter pony etc etc. Im not saying we shouldnt be feeding our ponies or not rugging them but i think the increase in laminitis we have seen over the years has a lot factors involved, and this is one o them!

Again, sorry if anyone else has said this!
		
Click to expand...

Apology accepted


----------



## brighteyes (7 July 2011)

MaisieMooandCometToo said:



			Oh dear, I must be an awful horse owner. 
My experience is that winters are hard. My pony isn't a particularly good doer at the best of times (despite being a section D!) so come winter when there's no grass in the field, the weight starts plummeting. However stabling isn't ideal due to his COPD and hip injury. I have found that our current yard's regime of alternative turnout, whilst whined about by other liveries, is the best for balancing his needs. He gets adlib haylage one day and he gets to stretch with fresh air the next, both days with high energy feeds. He refuses to be clipped which is a nightmare as he works a fair amount throughout winter so he's rugged to prevent the growth of an uncomfortable mammoth coat and it also prevents him from shivering off any fat to keep warm (but please don't think he overheats, he never comes in with sweat under his rugs and if he ever did he would have the next weight down on him!!) Last winter was quite successful, yes he was skinnier than in the summer and yes it's damned hard work keeping him in condition but I've never seen him without a shine to his coat.

Our mare thankfully just has to be fed a bit more and she's more than happy to chill in a stable if need be (such as when it's her turn to be in the muck heap field!!)
		
Click to expand...

Sorry, this counts as neglect   - though not in _*my*_ book, obviously   I think you need to have him pts as apparently that would be kinder and release both you from further accusations and him from further suffering.  I think you may find you haven't tried hard enough to accomodate your horse's needs, basically and that = neglect.


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## brighteyes (7 July 2011)

CrazyHorse! said:



			I Agree With YouCompletly, There Is No Reason, I Have A 23 Yeah Old Arab Mare, And Shes Is A Beautiful Unblivable Condition! 
I Dont Think She Has Ever Been Wintered In, Well, Atleast No In My Books  Im Thinking That Next Summer I Do Need To Stable Her, Only Due To Her Age, And Since We Live In Northern Ireland, Not The Very Best Of Winters  But Then Again, She Still Will Be In An Amazing Condiontion, Theres No Reason Why She Shouldnt Be! 
Clo
		
Click to expand...

How difficult was that to type because it was flippin hard to read - even harder than YorksG's post with no vowels and even one missing!


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## MaisieMooandCometToo (7 July 2011)

brighteyes said:



			Sorry, this counts as neglect   - though not in _*my*_ book, obviously   I think you need to have him pts as apparently that would be kinder and release both you from further accusations and him from further suffering.  I think you may find you haven't tried hard enough to accomodate your horse's needs, basically and that = neglect.
		
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I was considering this option, I mean he is 12 now so is obviously getting a bit too old to be worked anyways. I don't think I could put him through the unbearable suffering he must be in and lets be honest, it costs a bomb to keep him ticking over 

At least I hope you were being sarcastic??!!


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## *hic* (7 July 2011)

CrazyHorse! said:



			I Agree With YouCompletly, There Is No Reason, I Have A 23 Yeah Old Arab Mare, And Shes Is A Beautiful Unblivable Condition! 
I Dont Think She Has Ever Been Wintered In, Well, Atleast No In My Books  Im Thinking That Next Summer I Do Need To Stable Her, Only Due To Her Age, And Since We Live In Northern Ireland, Not The Very Best Of Winters  But Then Again, She Still Will Be In An Amazing Condiontion, Theres No Reason Why She Shouldnt Be! 
Clo
		
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brighteyes said:



			How difficult was that to type because it was flippin hard to read - even harder than YorksG's post with no vowels and even one missing!
		
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psssst It's magic! IF YOU TYPE IN ALL CAPITALS THE FORUM DOES IT FOR YOU TO SAVE PEOPLE'S EYES FROM THE SHOUTING, THEN YOU JUST NEED TO FORGET YOUR GRAMMAR AND SPELLING AND BOB'S YOUR UNCLE.

Edited to add. PMSL - my bad, no it doesn't ROFL.  In Which Case You're Right It's A RIght Blighter To Type.


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## joeanne (7 July 2011)

No the most famous of aunts was Sally BB!
Though I cant say I would want Worzel as an uncle......


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## *hic* (7 July 2011)

bakedbean said:



			not forgetting Fannys your aunt..cant be seen to be sexist now..
		
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And to be truly modern and non genderist: A quick snip here, a quick snip there and Bob's your aunty.


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## mymare (7 July 2011)

Having just spent way too much of my evening reading this online comedy, all I can say is HA HA HA HA HA HA HA!!! 

What a load of bollards!


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## brighteyes (8 July 2011)

MaisieMooandCometToo said:



			I was considering this option, I mean he is 12 now so is obviously getting a bit too old to be worked anyways. I don't think I could put him through the unbearable suffering he must be in and lets be honest, it costs a bomb to keep him ticking over 

At least I hope you were being sarcastic??!!
		
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I most certainly was, but I can see your points above and am reconsidering...


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## skewby (11 July 2011)

Sorry to resurrect, but just had to say, after the hiding the OP got...49.15% agreed with her.  Not to mention the 12.29% who were out and out, yes it's the owner's fault/responsibility.  Bullyfest!  Hope you're all happy you derailed a potentially very decent discussion.


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## Bettyboo222 (11 July 2011)

My 44 year old looses weight over winter, and even though she is not in the best condition in summer she still has more weight on her because of the spring grass.


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## bumblelion (11 July 2011)

I never have any problems with my stressy tb losing weight in the winter, everyone always comments on how well he looks all winter. I ensure he eats a hi fibre diet, corn oil and ad lib haylage and is rugged suitably.


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## bumblelion (11 July 2011)

Bettyboo222 said:



			My 44 year old looses weight over winter, and even though she is not in the best condition in summer she still has more weight on her because of the spring grass.
		
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Wow, 44 year old! That's amazing!!!


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## Enfys (12 July 2011)

skewby said:



			Hope you're all happy you derailed a potentially very decent discussion.
		
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Oh, I don't know, I think it was pretty well discussed from most directions actually


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## PapaFrita (12 July 2011)

skewby said:



			Sorry to resurrect, but just had to say, after the hiding the OP got...49.15% agreed with her.  Not to mention the 12.29% who were out and out, yes it's the owner's fault/responsibility.  Bullyfest!  Hope you're all happy you derailed a potentially very decent discussion.
		
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I think you'll find 49.15% only _partly_ agree with the OP. 
As for the rest... I could comment, but then you'd make up an amusing little acronym to ridicule me with....


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## BonneMaman (12 July 2011)

It is totally natural for a horse to lose condition in the winter and in the case of native breeds should be actively encouraged.

If however you have a thoroughbred type serious loss of condition can be avoided with good management.

It is not the end of the world though!


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## BonneMaman (12 July 2011)

Wagtail said:



			Strange how the majority have voted for the third option (as I have) then isn't it? That it is usually down to bad management with a FEW exceptions? I think I have obviously touched a few nerves. I simply offer my opinion as an option. Of course you are free to do what you like, without a conscience if you know you are right. Right? but I think a few people here protest too much.
		
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It is not an opinion when you try so desperately to ram it down everyone's throats!  Please do not put up any more polls on subjects that you cannot take criticism on.  YOU ARE NOT ALWAYS RIGHT!  You need to realise that dismissing everyone else because you do not agree with what they BELIEVE is not a good debating policy!  Your posts are rude and your demeanour is belittleing and P I S S E S people off!!!!!!!


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## TicTac (12 July 2011)

At the stud where I work all the horses are barned over the winter from october to march/april. The barns are overcrowded and allthough the horses have ad lib hay by the end of the winter most have all lost a considerable amount of weight and look awfull. Unfortunately there is not alot I can do about it except make sure that they can all get to the hay and water etc. IMO the main reason for the loss of weight is due to lack of proper excercise, bullying and probably not being able to eat as much as they need. So in this situation management is the problem. In the summer all the horses look fab and are much more relaxed and happy as they are out 24/7 which is so nice. keeping horses for commercial reasons is sometimes the worst care they can get but it makes them tough!


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## DragonSlayer (12 July 2011)

470+ posts later and this is STILL raging on?

Not been around, it's the end of term next week so been a tad busy elsewhere.....

This comes down to two things I reckon.

Those people who feed their horses to their condition.

....and those people that don't.


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## Wagtail (12 July 2011)

PapaFrita said:



			I think you'll find 49.15% only _partly_ agree with the OP. 
As for the rest... I could comment, but then you'd make up an amusing little acronym to ridicule me with.... 

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Wrong, Papa. I voted the third option myself (as did almost 50% of respondents) Around 12% felt even MORE strongly than I do that horses losing condition over winter is USUALLY down to bad management. So that makes a majority of around 62% that either agree or feel even more strongly than I do.


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## Wagtail (12 July 2011)

BonneMaman said:



			It is not an opinion when you try so desperately to ram it down everyone's throats!  Please do not put up any more polls on subjects that you cannot take criticism on.  YOU ARE NOT ALWAYS RIGHT!  You need to realise that dismissing everyone else because you do not agree with what they BELIEVE is not a good debating policy!  Your posts are rude and your demeanour is belittleing and P I S S E S people off!!!!!!!
		
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At first I couldn't read this as it was just a loud noise. All the shouting and exclamation marks. Anyway, when I finally read past the dazzling punctuation, I see that you think my posts are rude and that you are pissed off. Please therefore can you quote where you think I have been rude? I have not shouted or sworn at anyone to my knowledge, and never once attacked anyone. I may have replied sarcastically when people have been rude to me. If I am wrong I am sure you will be able to quote where I am apparently _ always _doing it.


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## why1040 (12 July 2011)

Wagtail said:



			At first I couldn't read this as it was just a loud noise. All the shouting and exclamation marks. Anyway, when I finally read past the dazzling punctuation, I see that you think my posts are rude and that you are pissed off. Please therefore can you quote where you think I have been rude? I have not shouted or sworn at anyone to my knowledge, and never once attacked anyone. I may have replied sarcastically when people have been rude to me. If I am wrong I am sure you will be able to quote where I am apparently _ always _doing it.
		
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Well just for a start, you resorted to calling me rude and "histrionic" despite there being no rudeness in my original answer to you, only facts (yes, I took the piss out of that particular reaction originally because quite frankly I thought you were trolling...I still do).  And even though I didn't in fact put any rudeness in my post, I STILL apologised for you managing to take it that way...you have yet to do the same to me for calling me names.  Darned lucky I wasn't holding my breath, isn't it?


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## Wagtail (12 July 2011)

why1040 said:



			Well just for a start, you resorted to calling me rude and "histrionic" despite there being no rudeness in my original answer to you, only facts (yes, I took the piss out of that particular reaction originally because quite frankly I thought you were trolling...I still do).  And even though I didn't in fact put any rudeness in my post, I STILL apologised for you managing to take it that way...you have yet to do the same to me for calling me names.  Darned lucky I wasn't holding my breath, isn't it?  

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No, I said that your POST was histrionic - big difference. The first part of it was quote:

'diatribe you then spouted' 

There is no way on earth my OP was diatribe, and to use the word 'spouted' is hardly polite. Therefore your post came over as histrionic to me. I didn't at first read past the first paragraph because of this initial rudeness. However, the rest of your post was absolutely fine.

You will find that I am always polite and will listen to anyone who is polite and sticks to the subject at hand. I even changed my views as a result of a succinct and well informed post made by Touchtone yesterday.

I am not here to exchange insults, though I do find that a certain minority on here resorts to them as soon as anyone disagrees with their views, or they take a disliking to someone for whatever reason. I guess my mistake is to engage with them.


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## Maesfen (12 July 2011)

Wagtail said:



			Wrong, Papa. I voted the third option myself (as did almost 50% of respondents) Around 12% felt even MORE strongly than I do that horses losing condition over winter is USUALLY down to bad management. So that makes a majority of around 62% that either agree or feel even more strongly than I do.
		
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Look at it this way.

This thread has had 477 replies (several of them from the same people, in fact, Wagtail, you probably make up a third of them - no, I haven't counted them)  but 11,860 views.

But, it's a big but - there has only been, out of all those viewing, only 243 voters.
Of those 243 voters, only 29 agreed, 90 disagreed, 121 said there could be exceptions and 3 were unsure.

Unless you get the majority of the 11,860 to vote too, not exactly representative but the majority of those that voted did agree that there could be exceptions to it being bad management alone, possibly due to the individuality of each different horse.

Not sure your poll actually tells us anything that experienced horse keepers didn't know already - each horse is an individual and should be treated as such all year round.


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## Flame_ (12 July 2011)

I think everyone is coming at this from the wrong angle. I think, ideally, horses should be maintained at their optimum weight/condition all year round. Surely the OP should be asking "Is it OK for us to allow horses to gain condition over the summer". Generally, not really, so if we were to practice good weight management over the spring/summer and not allow horses to get fatter, we wouldn't really want to be allowing them to lose much condition over the winter. or they would be poor, IYSWIM.


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## Wagtail (12 July 2011)

Maesfen said:



			Look at it this way.

This thread has had 477 replies (several of them from the same people, in fact, Wagtail, you probably make up a third of them - no, I haven't counted them)  but 11,860 views.

But, it's a big but - there has only been, out of all those viewing, only 243 voters.
Of those 243 voters, only 29 agreed, 90 disagreed, 121 said there could be exceptions and 3 were unsure.

Unless you get the majority of the 11,860 to vote too, not exactly representative but the majority of those that voted did agree that there could be exceptions to it being bad management alone, possibly due to the individuality of each different horse.

Not sure your poll actually tells us anything that experienced horse keepers didn't know already - each horse is an individual and should be treated as such all year round.
		
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I expect that out of the 11 thousand odd views, most were people viewing on many occasions. I think that 243 voters is actually a very good number for a statistically significant result. I am happy with that. 121 voted the same way as I did. 

I agree that each horse is an individual. Of course it is. I treat (and feed) all of mine differently (though in the same routine/feeding times of course).

This poll result does not mean that I am right or that those opposing me are wrong, just that around 60% of respondents tend to agree with the original premise. We have had some interesting exceptions along the way. For example a horse that just will not eat hay or haylage (even though her teeth are fine). This is a new one to me, and of course this poses huge problems in winter. So as I said right from the beginning, there ARE some exceptions.


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## Wagtail (12 July 2011)

Flame_ said:



			I think everyone is coming at this from the wrong angle. I think, ideally, horses should be maintained at their optimum weight/condition all year round. Surely the OP should be asking "Is it OK for us to allow horses to gain condition over the summer". Generally, not really, so if we were to practice good weight management over the spring/summer and not allow horses to get fatter, we wouldn't really want to be allowing them to lose much condition over the winter. or they would be poor, IYSWIM.
		
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Yes, in retrospect, I agree I should have asked that question. I could start another poll? 

Should the poll have been:

Do you think letting horses get fat over summer and then thin over winter is a usually result of poor management?

Yes, horses should be kept in optimum condition throughout the year
No, it is perfectly natural and healthy for horses

Maybe not, after the scrapping on this one.


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## ILuvCowparsely (12 July 2011)

general no

 Biscuit number 1 lost weight scouring  she went down to bone and fur and i mean that no exaggeration   wont post pictures upsets me  she was on codeine tables to slow gut down  had all test done never found the cause  I did everything i could for as long as i could even vet applauded me in the end due to her weakness  she had a stroke and couldn't get up  we stayed all night with her till vet came in morning  and PTS

 my other horse last year  would not eat stopped eatin would go out in field and stand all day  same when in she went vvvvvery thing   cause viral  , bought alpha oil and other expensive feeds to tempt her, eventually after 3 months she turned corner.   those are the only 2 cases here


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## Wagtail (12 July 2011)

Sounds like they were both poorly. One of my mares had a mystery illness one summer. No other horse had it, but she was severely ill. Thankfully she recovered well, but it was several months.


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## Fellewell (12 July 2011)

As someone said each horse is individual.
Specimen feed table circa 1960;
WINTER
16.2hh Hunter. Stabled, clipped and rugged. Hunting 2 days per week.

7am. oats 2lb, bran1lb with chaff, hay 2lb.
12 noon. oats 3lb, bran 1lb with chaff, carrots.
12.30 pm. hay 5lb.
4.30pm. oats3lb, bran1lb, linseed jelly 1lb, chaff.
7.30pm. oats 4lb, bran 1lb, chaff, hay 7lb. 

SUMMER
16.2hh hunter
At grass, no work.

Grazing only. Late summer Oats 4lb or cubes 4lb with bran.


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## PapaFrita (12 July 2011)

Wagtail said:



			Wrong, Papa. I voted the third option myself (as did almost 50% of respondents) Around 12% felt even MORE strongly than I do that horses losing condition over winter is USUALLY down to bad management. So that makes a majority of around 62% that either agree or feel even more strongly than I do.
		
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Agree in part means also disagree in part with your original statement. Including yourself it would seem.


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## Wagtail (12 July 2011)

PapaFrita said:



			Agree in part means also disagree in part with your original statement. Including yourself it would seem.
		
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Yey you are right there. 50% agree with me (option 3 that it is usually down to poor management with some exceptions) and almost 12% think that it is usually down to poor management with _no_ exceptions. Have to get these things absolutely right.


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## BonneMaman (12 July 2011)

Wagtail said:



			I could start another poll? 

. 

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No!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Please, could someone disable the poll button or restrict polls to one per person per erm LIFETIME!!!!!


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## Wagtail (12 July 2011)

BonneMaman said:



			No!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Please, could someone disable the poll button or restrict polls to one per person per erm LIFETIME!!!!!
		
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But I LIKE polls. They're fun


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