# Phillipa Dobby...(sp?)



## show_jumper (2 July 2007)

hi there....

am interested to hear from those of you that saw the round....

what is your view on riders hitting a horse in a class that goes out on national television???

should you smack the horse because its nappy, or bite your tongue so as not to upset the public???

this isn't a personal attack - it goes for all riders - am just intersted in hearing views....


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## Laafet (2 July 2007)

see the ben maher thread. most people seem appalled


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## Weezy (2 July 2007)

If you feel the horse deserves to be reprimanded, then you should do it, whether the cameras are on you or not.  We do not know what the mare is like, looked like a tricky ride to me, so I will neither applaude nor condemn her decision to give it a hiding.  Just glad it didn't go over backwards with her!


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## kirstyfk (2 July 2007)

It has nothing to do with going out on telly or not. If she believed the best thing to do was to smack the horse it was her choice. However in anyway she knew that if would rear then she shouldn't have done it. However it did add to the excitment of the tv coverage.


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## CastleMouse (2 July 2007)

I thought the horse was about to fall over backwards, she persevered with her, but I don't think hitting her like that was the correct thing to do...


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## Maesfen (2 July 2007)

Ditto Weezy!

I can see both points of view but I am of the opinion that if a horse needs a belt it should get it there and then, it's no good later so in that case, begger the public but I do not agree in a thrashing if that makes sense - whether in public or not.
I have to say I was appalled at her attitude and pitied the horse as they came down the ring, that was definitely not nice to see but at the same time, I admired her for being able to sit that and get it to jump the ditches reasonably neatly afterwards.
I hope it was a 'heat of the moment' type thing and not something that happens regularly with her.


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## eventing_chick (2 July 2007)

Pony was very bad, a real dirty stop.
IMO it deserverd a smack botty.


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## flyingfeet (2 July 2007)

I think you should do what you feel is correct and sod whether it is politically correct. Is it any worse than a jockey hitting a horse just to make it go faster?

That horse did a very dirty stop and was clearly having a go - softly softly may teach them that if the piss about they get to go back, probably not very good for a SJ'er.


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## lizzie_liz (2 July 2007)

IMO I believe the horse put in a dirty stop and deserved it. Once it had its tantrum it jumped through the double nicely so the whip must have had some affect


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## nuffield (2 July 2007)

I emailed the BBC about this . to ask if they condoned animal cruelty.The RSPCA should investigate uder the new Animal Welfare Act.
Geoff Bilington won without a whip!


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## Baggybreeches (2 July 2007)

Totally agree, the TV coverage is irrelevant. The nappy horse needed a smack, I do think it looked a bit switched off from the start but thats just my opinion. There was some excellent rounds and a couple of ropy ones (the big german's round springs to mind)! But I think the result was excellent.


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## SpottedCat (2 July 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
I emailed the BBC about this . to ask if they condoned animal cruelty.The RSPCA should investigate uder the new Animal Welfare Act.
Geoff Bilington won without a whip! 

[/ QUOTE ]


Seriously?! Whilst I was surprised she took a horse that does not like ditches in the derby, I think she smacked it for a dirty stop, which is not unreasonable. It's reactions like yours which will IMO get equestrianism taken off the TV. Mind you, when it went up she did not look well balanced and how it did not go over backwards I have no idea!


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## Reashi (2 July 2007)

I don't disagree with the smack, but I disagree with the timing. IMO she left it waaaaaay too late, the horse had already practically walked a circle! Probably had no idea what it was being smacked for.


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## skewbaldpony (2 July 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
I emailed the BBC about this . to ask if they condoned animal cruelty.The RSPCA should investigate uder the new Animal Welfare Act.
Geoff Bilington won without a whip! 

[/ QUOTE ]

oh really, i didn't see the round, but before you know it we'll all have rolf harris snivelling into his beard and the little horsey worseys will not be forced to jump the fencey wenceys any more!
they condone cruelty to people, otherwise they wouldn't cover so much darned politics!


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## Mel85 (2 July 2007)

I agree with you Reashi - she was right to smack the horse...but it was definitely too late. Also not sure why she attempted the derby on a ditchy horse, but she must have had reasons.  To be fair to her, she's 17 (I think?) and riding at a very high level...she can't be doing too much wrong!


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## seza (2 July 2007)

What a difficult decision for her to have to make on the spur of the moment.  The horse deserved a smack and luckily it did not go over.  It jumped fine after and she looked neat and tidy through the double.  My beef is that she kept her whip turned the wrong way round which looks dreadful.  All in all I would think it is an experience she is not likely to forget.  How lovely to see andrew jump what must be the round of his life to take second.  He is a rider that doesn't get the limelight that he deserves and this may change that.


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## SpottedCat (2 July 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
What a difficult decision for her to have to make on the spur of the moment.  The horse deserved a smack and luckily it did not go over.  It jumped fine after and she looked neat and tidy through the double.  My beef is that she kept her whip turned the wrong way round which looks dreadful.  All in all I would think it is an experience she is not likely to forget.  How lovely to see andrew jump what must be the round of his life to take second.  He is a rider that doesn't get the limelight that he deserves and this may change that. 

[/ QUOTE ]

Really do agree with all you have just said.


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## show_jumper (2 July 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What a difficult decision for her to have to make on the spur of the moment.  The horse deserved a smack and luckily it did not go over.  It jumped fine after and she looked neat and tidy through the double.  My beef is that she kept her whip turned the wrong way round which looks dreadful.  All in all I would think it is an experience she is not likely to forget.  How lovely to see andrew jump what must be the round of his life to take second.  He is a rider that doesn't get the limelight that he deserves and this may change that. 

[/ QUOTE ]

Really do agree with all you have just said. 

[/ QUOTE ]


totally agree!!


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## Reashi (2 July 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
What a difficult decision for her to have to make on the spur of the moment.  


[/ QUOTE ]

No excuse IMO.


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## eventing_chick (2 July 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
I emailed the BBC about this . to ask if they condoned animal cruelty.The RSPCA should investigate uder the new Animal Welfare Act.
Geoff Bilington won without a whip! 

[/ QUOTE ]

You can't be serious  
	
	
		
		
	


	




I smell a bunny hugger.


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## SpottedCat (2 July 2007)

From what I saw the horse dropped its shoulder and spun out of the second - yes if she'd realised a bit earlier she could have got the smack in earlier, but it looked like a v dirty stop to me. Mind you, that is probably why you do well and I am a happy amateur.


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## Maesfen (2 July 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
I emailed the BBC about this . to ask if they condoned animal cruelty.The RSPCA should investigate uder the new Animal Welfare Act.
Geoff Bilington won without a whip! 

[/ QUOTE ]

You have to be joking?!

You're not an experienced horseman then?


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## SpottedCat (2 July 2007)

Maybe if PD had used a carrot stick it would have been ok?!


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## severnmiles (2 July 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
It has nothing to do with going out on telly or not. If she believed the best thing to do was to smack the horse it was her choice. However in anyway she knew that if would rear then she shouldn't have done it. However it did add to the excitment of the tv coverage. 

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you think it was the best thing to do in that situation?  

She said it doesn't like ditches....if you want to ride in a Derby find a bolder horse.  Like I say BM was elm in two classes over two days that they broadcast...what was his reaction....?


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## severnmiles (2 July 2007)

P.s isn't the time to do that sort of thing at home?  I'll help the girl dig a ditch....


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## eventing_chick (2 July 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
Maybe if PD had used a carrot stick it would have been ok?! 
	
	
		
		
	


	





[/ QUOTE ]
I dare not say *whispers* carrot stick...... I'm frightened of the wrath of the articulate ones. 
	
	
		
		
	


	




...you know the ones that write pages and pages with really lovely long words.


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## Maesfen (2 July 2007)

That much of a deterrent, now you're talking!


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## show_jumper (2 July 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I emailed the BBC about this . to ask if they condoned animal cruelty.The RSPCA should investigate uder the new Animal Welfare Act.
Geoff Bilington won without a whip! 

[/ QUOTE ]

You can't be serious  
	
	
		
		
	


	




I smell a bunny hugger.






[/ QUOTE ]

I know!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I hope this is a joke!!!!! if not - it makes me VERY mad!!! people like this need a serious talking to!!!!! argh!


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## SpottedCat (2 July 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
P.s isn't the time to do that sort of thing at home?  I'll help the girl dig a ditch.... 

[/ QUOTE ]

Dunno - my horse events happily over ditches, never faulted at one XC, SJs up to 1.10, took him in a 3' derby, he took a dislike to the devil's dyke and had all 3 bits down, and yes, I did smack him before each element, and whilst he did jump it, he did also destroy it all. However, he did not even look at the ditches under the next two fences, and has never had a problem with them XC beyond being a bit looky - what do you do in that situation!? It's not schooling he needs in order to these classes (my horse I mean), it's ringcraft, and how do you get that without entering the comps?


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## Baggybreeches (2 July 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
Maybe if PD had used a carrot stick it would have been ok?! 
	
	
		
		
	


	





[/ QUOTE ]
Hey dont skit, I have actually tried bribing a water phobic horse into water by throwing bread in front of us, and it worked ( the orange greedy moo)!!!!! Now I hope I cant be tried for cruelty to dough based products!


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## SpottedCat (2 July 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Maybe if PD had used a carrot stick it would have been ok?! 
	
	
		
		
	


	





[/ QUOTE ]
I dare not say *whispers* carrot stick...... I'm frightened of the wrath of the articulate ones. 
	
	
		
		
	


	




...you know the ones that write pages and pages with really lovely long words. 
	
	
		
		
	


	













[/ QUOTE ]

PMSL


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## SpottedCat (2 July 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Maybe if PD had used a carrot stick it would have been ok?! 
	
	
		
		
	


	





[/ QUOTE ]
Hey dont skit, I have actually tried bribing a water phobic horse into water by throwing bread in front of us, and it worked ( the orange greedy moo)!!!!! Now I hope I cant be tried for cruelty to dough based products! 

[/ QUOTE ]

Now that I love! Hysterical - would it be considered 'outside assistance' if at a comp you could get someone to swear blind they were just feeding the ducks?!


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## severnmiles (2 July 2007)

But you didn't practise a devils dyke at home - quite different to eventing.

They should follow in Tim Stockdales footsteps...


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## ihatework (2 July 2007)

The mare did a dirty stop, and yes she might be a bit ditchy but managed to jump it fine second time around. If a horse had done such a horrible stop to me then (provided I was still on board LOL) I would probably have clouted it too.
The rearing looked worse than it was IMO, nappy naughty temper but I didn't once think it was going over, the mare seemed to have too much self preservation.
I don't doubt the rider was furious though and I do think her timing could have been better.


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## severnmiles (2 July 2007)

QR...Oi people, lets not get bitchy...  That is extreme but then Amy Tryon thinks all of us are extreme for kicking up a fuss about LS.  The line gets crossed...just people have different views on just where the line lies.


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## SpottedCat (2 July 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
But you didn't practise a devils dyke at home - quite different to eventing.

They should follow in Tim Stockdales footsteps... 

[/ QUOTE ]

Do not follow at all how a devils dyke is much different to a coffin - rail in down a slope, ditch in the middle, rail out up a slope? Not being pedantic, just think they are v similar, which is possibly where I went wrong?


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## severnmiles (2 July 2007)

Two rails and a ditch in a coffin...how many rails in a devils dyke?  Think like a horse...


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## SpottedCat (2 July 2007)

Again, do not follow - rail, trakehner, rail then - what's the difference? Done that schooling XC...I think you will have to spell it out to me. They are expected to jump a treble, one of which has a ditch under it. I do that XC both competing and schooling, and when I tell him to go, I expect him to do it! Poles are an irrelevance at this stage - he has seen plenty of ditches, including in combinations and more to the point when they are hidden behind a big first element and cannot be seen until he lands, so now he needs to learn that in the context of a SJ arena, he still goes, but is a bit more careful! I just do not understand how this is so different to anything he will have seen before - he is not a spooky horse, has never stopped at a filler, will jump anything you put him at, so what is the difference, why would he find it so different? By your reckoning I should buy a filler for every possible design you could ever come up with to practice over at home, which is not practical.


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## CastleMouse (3 July 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
I emailed the BBC about this . to ask if they condoned animal cruelty.The RSPCA should investigate uder the new Animal Welfare Act.
Geoff Bilington won without a whip!

[/ QUOTE ]
That isn't neccessary I think... Maybe I might not agree with her reaction to the horses stop, but I honestly don't consider it to be animal cruelty...


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## Rambo (3 July 2007)

I think a bit of a reality check might be in order here...

Firstly, PD was far from being the only rider to use her whip...hell, if you're not going to use one why bother carrying one 
	
	
		
		
	


	




 There were several cases of riders giving their horse a good smack after they'd stopped, especially in the speed derby, which didn't make it onto TV.

Yes, it was unfortunate that the horse chose to throw it's toys out of the pram where it did...right in front of the grandstand and in full view of the cameras...but it did and she reprimanded it accordingly. 

One may well question the wisdom of taking a 'ditchy' horse into the Derby, but you have to realise that she has qualified to be in that class by her placing in the Trial on Friday...and that course involves ditches and banks. They will also have jumped the same in the outside rings and elsewhere if they are competing at that level.

Different horses need different incentives...some respond to the 'firm' approach whereas others require a softer one...in this case the horse was taking the p155 and got a reasonable reprimand imo.

I can't comment on PD directly as I don't know her, but what a lot of people don't realise is just what does go on at home or in the outside rings to get some of these horses to jump. If you are ever in any doubt just take a stroll around the outside rings next time you're there...it ain't always pretty !


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## Sugarplum Furry (3 July 2007)

"he took a dislike to the devil's dyke and had all 3 bits down, and yes, I did smack him before each element, and whilst he did jump it, he did also destroy it all"

Please explain the logic of that to me.

I would have thought that if you smack a horse before he jumps he is going to get less and less inclined to jump anything at all.


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## SpottedCat (3 July 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
"he took a dislike to the devil's dyke and had all 3 bits down, and yes, I did smack him before each element, and whilst he did jump it, he did also destroy it all"

Please explain the logic of that to me.

I would have thought that if you smack a horse before he jumps he is going to get less and less inclined to jump anything at all. 

[/ QUOTE ]
'
Because I could feel him backing off and he needed reminding to go forwards - mind you the point I was making was not whether I did the right thing or not, it was that how did Severnmiles know PD had not practiced over ditches for hours and the horse just needed ringcraft experience? I know this board is full of people who would never mack their horse and I open myself up to being derided for doing so, but it's your choice not to, the smae as it is my choice to use the whip.


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## Jemayni (3 July 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I emailed the BBC about this . to ask if they condoned animal cruelty.The RSPCA should investigate uder the new Animal Welfare Act.
Geoff Bilington won without a whip! 

[/ QUOTE ]

You have to be joking?!

You're not an experienced horseman then? 

[/ QUOTE ]

Seriously, whilst I dont agree with this person's (nuffield) opinion, everyone is entitiled to their own opinion &amp; whilst you might not agree to it; comments like this are not the way to encourage a decent debate on a a controvertial issue!


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## Angua2 (3 July 2007)

I am going to dare to put my twopenneth in !

Yes the horse put in a dirty stop, yes it deserved a wollop (or two).... BUT her timing was out, and thus the temper tantrum of that mare... In my eyes that was self inflicted.  from what I percieved the rider had also lost her temper.
The comments in my house were, "i wouldn't like to be that mare when they get out" 

It is unfortunate that it was televised, as that kind of action does tend to bring out the "bunny huggers"


I am now gonna run and hide!


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## MurphysMinder (3 July 2007)

Only slowly working my way thro Hickstead video.  Have now watched this incident.  I think it did deserve a smack as it was a dirty stop, however my daughters instructor would have said she used the whip far too late, she was hitting the horse for standing still!  Commentators commented on the mares "attitude problem" but I actually thought the rider had more of an attitude problem as she left the ring.  Didn't like the way she was nagging at its mouth, looked to me as if the mare was going to have another telling off once it left the ring which I don't like to see.  I haven't read though all the threads here so apologies if I am repeating what others have said.


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## MurphysMinder (3 July 2007)

Sorry, have worked my way through posts now and realise I am repeating what quite a few others have said, that'll teach me to post in a hurry.  Don't really think it was a case for the RSPCA tho!


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## Baggybreeches (3 July 2007)

Spot on Rambo, well said.


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## bandit (3 July 2007)

I totally agree with her first taking the horse into the class - as Rambo said she'd qualified it.

It's a ditchy horse so possibly she either over rode the first bit, or under rode it, and then the nappy b*gger put in a dirty one.  She recovered and then told it that she wasn't going to accept that again - Good on her IMO.  Horses need to learn, and you can't recreate the atmosphere of somewhere like that at home regardless of facilities.  I can't bear / bare bunny hugger who claim it's cruel.  The damn horse nearly put her in the ditch and she could have been quite badly injured.  I have had a very ditchy horse and I've seem the insides of most ditches going - I also have carried my whip like she has - acts as an incentive as horse can see it our of the corner of their eyes, however I may be wrong, but I htink there is now a rule to say you can't? Correct if wrong.

I would also like to point out that there were many people whipping thier horses into the water jump - I can't recall their names but there were definately 2 who got 3 up the side going into it.  No one seems to have mentioned that????

I think sour grapes for alot of people not getting as far as some - congrats to all who did qualify and get to jump the derby -  no mean feat.

As for the bitting issues those people have - I don't think you should comment on a horse you don't know.  If plain snaffles with caveson nose bands got the same results, I bet they'd use them.....

AS for getting the RSPCA involved - I think we need to call a Psych Doctor for you and for you to be put in a padded cell - you sound quite unwell.

Rant over.


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## suestowford (3 July 2007)

[ QUOTE ]

I would also like to point out that there were many people whipping thier horses into the water jump - I can't recall their names but there were definately 2 who got 3 up the side going into it.  No one seems to have mentioned that????


[/ QUOTE ]

There seemed to be a fair amount of whip use in general, not just going into the water, and it did seem to coincide with a deterioration in performance. Now to me it looked like encouragement (that didn't always work) of a flagging horse, but I can see how it could look to someone who hadn't ridden much.

I have to agree with the posters above who said that P.Dobby's timing was out, she was a bit late with her stick and it didn't look good, but my goodness, can't she stick on?!


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## seansheep (3 July 2007)

there were patently a lot of flagging horses at the end - and a good few paddled thru the mud on the turn into the water and lost momentum - coupled with the uphill and the wide water a good few riders did issue some 'encouragement' - tbh never seen so many horses in the water and perhaps the course could have put a take off board on the water just for this year to help the horses instead of the open water

as for the other girl - there are 6 ditches on that course - did she honestly think that mare - anti-ditch - was really going to get round that course ? surely not ?


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## BBs (3 July 2007)

My spies tell me the mare is difficult, and even they were suprised the combination were put in the class.
Apparently has a lot to do with the trainer! but then again, whats the point of having a trainer if you dont listen to them?

I think anyone who had seen my incident at BCA 2 wks ago, Snoop wasnt far off reacting in the same way after i smacked him! equally i wasnt in front of millions of spectators/TV viewers.


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## kayleigh_and_rocky (3 July 2007)

I might get shot down here but i think in the case of PD that mare deserved a bloody good smack - she knows that horse inside out, she must know what its capable of doing and she must know its a nappy sod with an attitude problem.  Perhaps hitting it twice however was not acceptable - one hard smack would have done!
At the end of the day horses need discipline whether they are on tv or not - these are big animals and hugely capable of taking the pi$$.  If you let them get away with it in the ring because you're scared of what people will say then your horse will quickly learn that it can get away with mucking about without being reprimanded when its in the ring.  End of.  Theres a reason there are so many horses on project horses these days and that is the extremes of the two attitudes - complete bunny huggers who wont discipline the horse and then the other extreme where they use too much discipline.  Its about finding a happy medium.  

So, i for one was not surprised when PD smacked her horse because it was being naughty and needed telling off - though twice mm not so much needed.


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## kayleigh_and_rocky (3 July 2007)

YES here here, thats what i was trying to say but you put it a LOT better than me lol


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## orton (3 July 2007)

I can't believe my eyes reading some of this dribble!!!

I watched the derby and whilst I know that the horse world is fast becoming a "My pretty pony" lot, I can't believe people are condeming PD.  That horse proper dropped the shoulder on her at the 2nd part of the double and its only the fact she had a good seat she stayed on at all.  Now if she had fell off everyone would have been singing a different tune of what a dirty so and so the horse was and how it needed a good smack. If the horse was genuinely scared of the fence, fair enough but you could tell that was just plain dirty on the behalf of the horse.  I for one think she did the right thing, I know people are saying she smacked it too slow but the horse lurched off and she was prob trying to get her backside back in the plate properly.  PD was exceptionally lucky that the horse didn't go over backwards as it stood bolt upright, skewed and then stood on one back leg.  Only the fact she has a good seat and balance that she didn't come off then as well.  

As for the RSPCA comment, well sorry what a bunch of P**** they are anyway.

I know I'm going to have some bi***y comments back but really don't care.  This country has become too much of a nanny state, too politically correct thats why we're in such a state with these extremists as everyone so scared to do anything just incase it upsets some complete and utter nutter that lives in the realms of fairyland and not reality. Next we will have people crowing on about its cruel to ride full stop and that we should just keep them for the sake of their good looks and companionship.


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## The Voice (3 July 2007)

The riders are caught between a rock and a hard place on occasions like this are dammed if they do and dammed if they don't. If there was any misuse of the whip at an event like this a rider will be pulled up to the judges box which has happened on occasions before and they are called over the PA so everyone knows. Obviously the FEI judges thght that the use was ok (not pretty to watch) but acceptable.The rider I am sure will watch the tape and have learnt lessons from it.

I think instead of focusing on one incident we should congratulate all the horses, riders and the arena staff on putting on a tremendous effort in conditions which were terrible and providing entertainment for us to enjoy.

With regards to the bits, they look severe but are not, just complicated not to make them severe (if that make sense). If they were too severe the horses would not jump and make the distances.


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## severnmiles (3 July 2007)

So in your opinion an open ditch is the same as a trakehner?  Come on, next you'll be telling me a corner and an arrowhead are the same, yes both accuracy fences but not the same.


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## The Virgin Dubble (3 July 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
QR...Oi people, lets not get bitchy...  That is extreme but then Amy Tryon thinks all of us are extreme for kicking up a fuss about LS.  The line gets crossed...just people have different views on just where the line lies. 

[/ QUOTE ]

Well said Severnmiles.

Everybody is entitled to their opinion whether we agree with it or not.

The horse did indeed do a dirty stop, and looked a handful most of the way through the round.
Had it been me, I would have walloped it too.

However, I do think her timing was out, and she appeared to hit the horse out of anger/embarrassment, rather than administering a swift sharp reprimand for the horses behaviour.

Somebody has been ridiculed for emailing the BBC (or whoever it was), but I'm betting that it won't be the only email sent...


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## severnmiles (3 July 2007)

So because Amy knows LS inside out then she was the only one who was qualified to say whether she should pull up or not.  Often the whole adrenalin, atmosphere e.t.c gets to someone and in a different situation they would react very differently.

How would you suggest Ben Maher should have reacted to his bay horse in the speed class when it stopped dead at the first fence?  Wallop it so it stands up?

How do we know it was a dirty stop?  I can't replay it but maybe it slid on the ground/stood on an overreach boot/something in the crowd caught its eye bla bla bla.


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## SpottedCat (3 July 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
So in your opinion an open ditch is the same as a trakehner?  Come on, next you'll be telling me a corner and an arrowhead are the same, yes both accuracy fences but not the same. 

[/ QUOTE ]
Not the same, but I do not see how rail, trakehner, rail (for example) is that far off devil's dyke. My point was not whether or not I had done my prep correctly, but that you can do all the prep in the world and if the horse lacks ringcraft it can lok like you need to school more!

I just think that when I tell my horse to go I expect him to do just that - I have not schooled over every type of XC jump he will ever meet, but I still don't expect him to kick up a fuss every time there is something a bit new/different on a course. 

If he has jumped lots of fences with ditches in varying places in relation to other fences, then he should be able to jump through a devil's dyke IMO and will therefore get a smack if he gives me the impression that he is thinking otherwise! I couldn't care less that he had the poles down, but I did expect him to go when I said so!

Anyway, back to my actual point, which was that sometimes you can practice all you like at home, but you lack experience in the ring, what should you do then? All you can do is jump and jump and jump at comps until your ringcraft improves, surely?


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## severnmiles (3 July 2007)

Preperation is 9/10's.  I had it drilled into me, always have a horse working a level above what he is competing at.  Practise until you don't get it wrong - not until you get it right...

I agree, she may have had her going beautifully over a rail and ditch at home and the mare didn't play ball at Hickstead, perhaps she didn't like the ground, who knows?!


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## bandit (3 July 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
Preperation is 9/10's.  I had it drilled into me, always have a horse working a level above what he is competing at.  Practise until you don't get it wrong - not until you get it right...

I agree, she may have had her going beautifully over a rail and ditch at home and the mare didn't play ball at Hickstead, perhaps she didn't like the ground, who knows?! 

[/ QUOTE ]

With all due respect, how can you practice at a level above the Derby?  Surely it's the biggest course there is?

There isn't an option on the ground at Hickstead - and the ground staff did a fine job on it, and arranging events not to be held in it so the best of the ground remained.

I also think that the ones in the middle had the worst ground as by the end it had dried up a bit.

Bx


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## SpottedCat (3 July 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
Preperation is 9/10's.  I had it drilled into me, always have a horse working a level above what he is competing at.  Practise until you don't get it wrong - not until you get it right...

I agree, she may have had her going beautifully over a rail and ditch at home and the mare didn't play ball at Hickstead, perhaps she didn't like the ground, who knows?! 

[/ QUOTE ]

Gosh, I wasn't saying don't prepare, far from it! Just that sometimes it's ring practice you need, and the only way to get that is, well, in the ring. Plus, you cannot practice over every type of fence the course builder may come up with (although I grant that the derby is different as the course never changes), but you can school until your horse knows that you mean it when you say go! Surely the point of competative jumping is that your horse trusts you enough to try and jump for you, even if it hasn't seen the fence before?

There are so many 'what-ifs' the mare did not look an easy ride, and hats off to her for attempting the derby at all, I would not have done!


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## severnmiles (3 July 2007)

Sorry Bandit perhaps you should read the whole conversation between Spottedcat and I - we were referring to her horse who didn't take to a dyke.


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## Pasha (3 July 2007)

From my viewpoint (was sitting right in front of the double of water - probably could have touched it) PD deliberately turned her whip upside down and repeatedly whacked her horse on the bum in a temper.... I haven't yet watched it back on TV but the reaction of the crowd in my grandstand was shock! 

I 100% agree that sometimes horses should be given a smack BUT there is a line and IMO she crossed it!

I compare it to Robert Whitaker - he smacked his horse ONCE for a refusal and continued. He stayed calm and cool - he was probably every bit as dissapointed as PD and there is the difference! He's a professional!


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## SpottedCat (3 July 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
Sorry Bandit perhaps you should read the whole conversation between Spottedcat and I - we were referring to her horse who didn't take to a dyke. 

[/ QUOTE ]

PMSL sorry but if you read that to someone who is not horsey


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## jesterfaerie (3 July 2007)

My opinion on the matter....

I do think she right for smacking the horse for refusing, no doubt about that but the fact she hit her more than once made me wonder if she was telling the horse off for embrarrasing her more so for refusing (not saying she was but it is the impression I got). 

Either way I do not agree with the people who consider that it was wrong to hit the horse, and certainly would not have classed it as an act which the RSPCA needed to be contacted over! Would you have classed it as cruelty if the horse had not reacted the way she did? When I used to compete at small shows around 5 years ago I saw kids my age (13) or younger smack their ponies worse than that.

I think this country is getting out of hand, everyone is sueing everyone for little or no reason, putting a horse in it's place is cruelty, what is next?

I do agree that different jumps such as ditches have to be done inside out at home to help the horse but I agree that you can have it foot perfect at home and it can all go to pot in the ring so it will have to be sorted out with experience in the ring.

One other thing I did not like about PD's round was the way she exited the ring. Seemed the be riding the mare's head into her chest. I got the impression that she was very annoyed at the horse because of that and not doing it due to the horse's 'attitude problem'. Granted I do not know the horse nor have I ever ridden it, but if it was down to the horse's attitude would a walk on a long rein be better for her whist exiting the ring? If any of you follow me?


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## severnmiles (3 July 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Sorry Bandit perhaps you should read the whole conversation between Spottedcat and I - we were referring to her horse who didn't take to a dyke. 

[/ QUOTE ]

PMSL sorry but if you read that to someone who is not horsey
	
	
		
		
	


	

















[/ QUOTE ]

PMSL!!!


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## Artois (3 July 2007)

I thought she rode well - not easy mare to ride.

Ridiculous its certainly is not cruelty.

What do you want her to do - pat the horse and bring it back round - ha ha - that really wont work on that horse lol


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## Troggy (3 July 2007)

I don't see much wrong with what she did, she knows her horse better than the rest of use, and I can sympathise being the owner of a nappy mare! After the horses tantrum it jumped the ditches and she didn't have to repeat the "smacks", surely that's better than having to keep re-facing a fence if she is just going to keep refusing, then getting eliminated and the horse "winning" the argument?? Just my opinion.....


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## Sal_E (3 July 2007)

Nuffield - I seriously hope you are joking. 
	
	
		
		
	


	





If you thought it unfair/unjust/whatever, complain to the BJSA &amp; let them deal with it. Complaining to the BBC who everyone is desperately trying to encourage to have MORE equine tv coverage is short sighted &amp; pretty pointless. 

Even if they agreed with you, what do you think they'd do - certainly they won't take it up with the rider, they'll just do LESS bloody coverage - especially after the latest disasterous Badminton, they're probably questionning why they bother!!!


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## khan (3 July 2007)

A few of the people up my yard (definately NOT 'bunny huggers') wished that the horse did chuck her off!!!  When we need more coverage of this sport on television etc, I think that it is damaging to our sport when we get this sort of aggression etc, I know what Matt Ryans comments were in H&amp;H last week, and we do need 'good guys' and 'bad guys', but not in this instance, are we now going to risk people thinking about our sport being full of aggressive, spolit, rich kids??  my point is, if it p*sses off horsey people, it certainly will p*ss off non horsey people and animal lovers who did witness this?

Please don't attack me for my opinion!


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## spaniel (3 July 2007)

I think the mare deserved her rear.  Theres no doubt at all that she deserved a smack for her behaviour coming into that fence HOWEVER to turn her away and ride so far forward away from the fence and THEN give her what for was IMO not the most sensible thing to do.  If you are going to have an argument then make it quick after the tantrum, or whatever, so the horse does at least associate your actions with its own.

Pleased to see it didnt come down on her and fair play to Phillipa, thats not an easy horse!!!

As to the original posters question....no I dont see why any allowance should be made for the fact that a rider has an audience.


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## xspiralx (3 July 2007)

Personally I don't think there was anything wrong with what she did. It was a very dirty stop, and yes, maybe she should have reacted a bit quicker, but I don't doubt that the horse knew what it was being told off for - it jumped perfectly well afterwards.

Looked a very difficult horse, and one with an attitude problem IMO - I would have done the same thing. I don't doubt she was angry with the horse, but it was a couple of sharp smacks, not excessive beating .


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## MissDeMeena (3 July 2007)

I don't think it was a dirty stop, she was riding out of her depth and chased it into the first part making it jump flat leaving not alot of hope for the second part!!

Don't get me wrong, she is doing VERY well to be riding at that level at only 17, but she was out of her depth there...

unlike a certain Mr M.


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## teapot (3 July 2007)

anyone remember when Jane Annett did exactly the same thing on Cullawn Diamond a couple of years ago?

Look at that horse now, very very consistant in the Derby

Not condoning or sticking up for Phillappa Dobby but the use of the whip at the right time can be effective. From where I was it did look like a dirty stop - may well have spooked last minute at something in the water, reflection - who knows. Sitting in the crowd at the time, we were more worried about the horse going over backwards.


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## severnmiles (3 July 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
I thought she rode well - not easy mare to ride.

Ridiculous its certainly is not cruelty.

What do you want her to do - pat the horse and bring it back round - ha ha - that really wont work on that horse lol 

[/ QUOTE ]

Not really...but I have to say giving it a wallop didn't do much good either...

I don't have a problem with someone disciplining a horse, I had a problem with the fact she appeared to do it out of anger/embarrassment rather than for the good of her horse or jumping round.


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## severnmiles (3 July 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think it was a dirty stop, she was riding out of her depth and chased it into the first part making it jump flat leaving not alot of hope for the second part!! 

[/ QUOTE ]

For a mo I was beginning to think I was the only one who saw that and my eyes were decieving me!  She'd be on the floor xc if she did that in eventing!


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## Gonetofrance (3 July 2007)

She didn't look to ride in with enough pace, and the mare rightly said no. It wasn't a dirty stop, it was a sensible one. She was far too late to smack it, and wrong anyway. It was looking out of it's depth a bit, as she was, and thank gawd she didn't go any further than she did. 
I thought she was disgusting sawing at her mouth like that on the way out.


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## severnmiles (3 July 2007)

Oopsie...I've had my wrists slapped!


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## teapot (3 July 2007)

bad Severnmiles ~sends SM to her room~


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## ruthdrummond (3 July 2007)

Was wondering if i was the only person out who looked as if the mare was not helped by the rider not riding as well as some others.
I know the girl is young, but my impression was that her inexperience was part of the reason for the stop. If i thought she has smacked the horse fairly then that wouldnt bother me, but she hit the horse in a tantum, not in a way that should be done for reprimanding for a stop.


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## Gonetofrance (3 July 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
Oopsie...I've had my wrists slapped! 

[/ QUOTE ]

Me too!!


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## MagicMelon (3 July 2007)

I agree that I think she wasnt experienced enough to be doing the Derby. I think its THE most difficult course in the world therefore allowing someone who is inexperienced (purely because of her age) to enter is just dangerous IMO. She said she knew her horse had problems with ditches, surely you wouldnt enter a horse in this class if you KNEW it had a problem since there's plenty in it!

I dont think it should matter who's watching (ie. its on TV) as to how a person acts. Its a sport, they're in it to win - they couldnt give a crap about the public and why should they! I dont stop and think about my actions if Im in a ring which spectators are watching! 

I dont think she should have smacked her horse as I also think it was done in a stroppy way as if she was embarassed. Plus, you'd think she'd know her horse would react like that if smacked it (everybody knows their own horses and what they do and dont accept - this one clearly does NOT appreciate being wacked!). She's damn lucky it didnt fall on her.


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## FRESHMAN (3 July 2007)

Ok. I have refrained from this post, but I have had loads of messages &amp; texts etc.
1. Congratulating Andy &amp; 
2. Asking my thoughts on this thread. I hope I dont regret posting my thoughts as mainly I feel at this stage it is worse to say nothing. I almost feel accused of trying to hide something. If you know what I mean.
Firstly, everyone says If PD Qualified  to run in the Derby then she had proved to be up to it. Well If you check the results from the Derby Trial you will see that PD was eliminated. (At the same double of ditches that first caused the problem on Sunday) The fact is every horse that started in that class Qualified. &amp; that maybe the issue. Note both Robert Whitaker &amp; Steven Smith put other riders on there horses because a start in that one class, (even jumping one fence &amp; retiring takes you through to the big one). Should that be the case? I really do not know, &amp; maybe the organisers of Hickstead may consider this for future years. I know that Andy wanted a crack at the Puissance at HOYS &amp; Olympia. Permission was refused on the grounds that unless you have jumped a puissance &amp; cleared 2 m you could not enter without a personal invite as part of the top 10 (or whatever) This was said to be a protection against someone being out of there depth whilst on National TV. 
Andy &amp; Special Diamond were joint winner in the 5th round with Ellen Whitaker &amp; Locarno in a  6 bar at 1.95m 

Should PD have smacked the horse. Yes, I think so. I am a big believer in carrot &amp; stick. However IMO It should have been instantly &amp; not several seconds after the run out. (it was a run out &amp; not a dead stop) I am not going to get into pro's &amp; cons of right or wrong. 
I do not believe that a rider of her age should be barred from a class just because she may be inexperienced &amp; in fact is only 14 month younger than my own son that managed to finish as runner up. 
At the end of this month she will be travelling to France for the Europeans, On that basis I hope we can draw a line under this unfortunate incident. So perhaps we might just lay off the pressure &amp; let her get on with her job in trying to bring medals back with the rest of the Team.
Trust me, not one of these riders go in there to make a fool of themself. Age &amp; experience plays a big part in there learning curve. My own story could have been so different, &amp; still maybe another year.


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## k1963 (3 July 2007)

The rider had said beforehand that her horse disliked ditches .
I must admit that part of me admired her for getting the horse over in the end , another part wanted to see her face down in the mud after being chucked off by the horse &amp; another part thought it looked ugly &amp; more like a schooling round .

Only time will tell if she really 'won' that argument , imho .
I didn't think it cruel though - just rather an ugly spectacle .


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## JM07 (3 July 2007)

i dislike public transport but i still use it.....


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## FRESHMAN (3 July 2007)

Erm sorry but dont get it? &amp; I am not blond.


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## k1963 (3 July 2007)

I don't get it either - not blonde either !
I have difficulty in making my mind up at times , but not when I'm XC fence judging


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## jesterfaerie (3 July 2007)

Maybe I am the only one but if my horse refused those fences and I was eliminated due to that in the trial I probably would not have taken the horse into the main derby. But take it home and work more on the horse in order to save it for another day and possibly make a better attempt at it next year.

But then again if I were faced at the prospect of being the youngest ever derby rider, and having that title over all of the greats such as the Whitakers/Smiths/and every other top rider then maybe I would have done the same and taken the horse in.


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## Rambo (3 July 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
Ok. I have refrained from this post, but I have had loads of messages &amp; texts etc.
1. Congratulating Andy &amp; 
2. Asking my thoughts on this thread. I hope I dont regret posting my thoughts as mainly I feel at this stage it is worse to say nothing. I almost feel accused of trying to hide something. If you know what I mean.
Firstly, everyone says If PD Qualified  to run in the Derby then she had proved to be up to it. Well If you check the results from the Derby Trial you will see that PD was eliminated. (At the same double of ditches that first caused the problem on Sunday) The fact is every horse that started in that class Qualified. &amp; that maybe the issue. Note both Robert Whitaker &amp; Steven Smith put other riders on there horses because a start in that one class, (even jumping one fence &amp; retiring takes you through to the big one). Should that be the case? I really do not know, &amp; maybe the organisers of Hickstead may consider this for future years. I know that Andy wanted a crack at the Puissance at HOYS &amp; Olympia. Permission was refused on the grounds that unless you have jumped a puissance &amp; cleared 2 m you could not enter without a personal invite as part of the top 10 (or whatever) This was said to be a protection against someone being out of there depth whilst on National TV. 
Andy &amp; Special Diamond were joint winner in the 5th round with Ellen Whitaker &amp; Locarno in a  6 bar at 1.95m 

Should PD have smacked the horse. Yes, I think so. I am a big believer in carrot &amp; stick. However IMO It should have been instantly &amp; not several seconds after the run out. (it was a run out &amp; not a dead stop) I am not going to get into pro's &amp; cons of right or wrong. 
I do not believe that a rider of her age should be barred from a class just because she may be inexperienced &amp; in fact is only 14 month younger than my own son that managed to finish as runner up. 
At the end of this month she will be travelling to France for the Europeans, On that basis I hope we can draw a line under this unfortunate incident. So perhaps we might just lay off the pressure &amp; let her get on with her job in trying to bring medals back with the rest of the Team.
Trust me, not one of these riders go in there to make a fool of themself. Age &amp; experience plays a big part in there learning curve. My own story could have been so different, &amp; still maybe another year. 

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, i for one wasn't aware that everyone who started the Trial qualified for the Derby itself. In my opinion that de-values the Trial itself, and as was the case here, puts people in a situation that potentially they are not ready for. Why she decided to start the Derby itself having been eliminated in the Trial, only she (and possibly her trainer) will ever know.

That said, i still take my hat off to her for having the balls to try, and wish her and the British team the best of luck in Auvers later this month.


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## JM07 (3 July 2007)

the emphasis on the fact that P D's horse doesn't like ditches...

doesn't mean the damn thing shouldnt jump them!!!


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## FRESHMAN (3 July 2007)

Well perhaps that would be the best way of looking at it dont you think.


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## k1963 (3 July 2007)

Message understood now , RHT !


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## FRESHMAN (3 July 2007)

Ahh now I see, Sorry I am obviously being very blonde. Its been a long week. I think that was very quick. Good on yer


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## JM07 (3 July 2007)

either that, she could dismount, take a carrot from her jacket pocket, ASK the horse NICELY to walk beside her, lower the bar, ASK nicely again for the horse to walk beside her, then stand, NICELY, whilst she puts bar back up, proceed to second element of jump, repeat, then remount. Apologise to her horse for the trauma that it's been through and carry on her round until the horse has another "mental block" and repeat above, untill horse realises that what she is doing isnt detrimental to it's well-being and things will all come out in the wash...BLESS!!


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## FRESHMAN (3 July 2007)

I also was not aware of that until after the trial. But I agree, lets wish the whole team the best of luck in Auvers.


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## SpottedCat (3 July 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
I also was not aware of that until after the trial. But I agree, lets wish the whole team the best of luck in Auvers. 

[/ QUOTE ]

Indeed. It is a long while since I have watched the derby and it is clear that there is some serious talent in up and coming riders competing for this country, and may they continue to prove that!


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## jesterfaerie (3 July 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
Well perhaps that would be the best way of looking at it dont you think. 
	
	
		
		
	


	





[/ QUOTE ]

Was that meant in a good way or a bad way? Sorry I am really not with it tonight


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## FRESHMAN (3 July 2007)

Trust me, I will be very honest, my son takes no prisoners. If a horse deserves a smack it will get one. &amp; probably a damn sight harder than Phil's horse. I am sticking my neck out here but IMO a very quick &amp; sharp reprimand is far better than constant niggling after the event. &amp; did anyone else notice that once Sister Bing had jumped the wall she actually gave it a pat. Unfortunately it started napping again. You just can not do right for doing wrong. Talk about a rock &amp; a hard place.


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## FRESHMAN (3 July 2007)

It was meant in a good way as a reply to hardcore. She said maybe if she was faced with being the youngest rider in the Derby maybe she would go ahead.


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## SpottedCat (3 July 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
Trust me, I will be very honest, my son takes no prisoners. If a horse deserves a smack it will get one. &amp; probably a damn sight harder than Phil's horse. I am sticking my neck out here but IMO a very quick &amp; sharp reprimand is far better than constant niggling after the event. &amp; did anyone else notice that once Sister Bing had jumped the wall she actually gave it a pat. Unfortunately it started napping again. You just can not do right for doing wrong. Talk about a rock &amp; a hard place. 

[/ QUOTE ]

Everyone sees things differently is the problem  - what others saw as sawing at the mouth on the way out I (as the rider of a persistent rearer in times gone by) thought was probably her trying to stop a repeat rear by keeping the head down and the quarters less engaged by moving the horse about. Of course I have no idea what was going through her head, just that my interpretation of her actions was probably very different to a lot of people's as I come from a different angle if you see what I mean? The same is true for everyone I guess.


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## JM07 (3 July 2007)

as you have said, FRESHMAN..if your son's horse had napped, then he too, would of had a smack, 

unless you've either been at that level, or are at that level then keep quiet...

professional riders wouldn't put their livelyhoods at risk for a couple of cracks to a moody mare......

she may be young, but she could well be, along with your son FRESHMAN, the future of GB showjumping...

my slant on this is...if you were a spectator...then you were/are just that, nothing else

ETS."you" meaning collectively of the negatives through this thread.


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## Weezy (3 July 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
Trust me, I will be very honest, my son takes no prisoners. If a horse deserves a smack it will get one. &amp; probably a damn sight harder than Phil's horse. I am sticking my neck out here but IMO a very quick &amp; sharp reprimand is far better than constant niggling after the event. &amp; did anyone else notice that once Sister Bing had jumped the wall she actually gave it a pat. Unfortunately it started napping again. You just can not do right for doing wrong. Talk about a rock &amp; a hard place. 

[/ QUOTE ]

And IMHO, Andy's way is the RIGHT way - I would happily send another horse to him (might even be a better one next time 
	
	
		
		
	


	




 ).  I did notice PD pat her horse, and I agree, you cannot do right for doing wrong.  As for the fact your entry in the Trial means you go into the Derby proper - wow, never knew that - so what is the point of the Trial...?

I stand by what I said at the beginning of this thread - her horse, her ride, her choice and I am glad it didn't go over with her, but it deffo needed a telling off, shame the timing was slightly off.  Lesson learnt and I do hope they bring some gold back for Team GB


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## Weezy (3 July 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
Everyone sees things differently is the problem  - what others saw as sawing at the mouth on the way out I (as the rider of a persistent rearer in times gone by) thought was probably her trying to stop a repeat rear by keeping the head down and the quarters less engaged by moving the horse about. Of course I have no idea what was going through her head, just that my interpretation of her actions was probably very different to a lot of people's as I come from a different angle if you see what I mean? The same is true for everyone I guess. 

[/ QUOTE ]

The way I saw it was she felt utterly humiliated (as we all do, low level upwards) that she didn't get to show what she is capable of doing, in front of a huge audience and probably jumping in the class that was fulfilling her childhood dreams - therefore I saw her as keeping herself busy, head down, sparing her blushes, and keeping the horse working, whilst, possibly, trying not to burst into tears - but I do not know her and that could just be the mother coming out in me LOL!


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## SpottedCat (3 July 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Everyone sees things differently is the problem  - what others saw as sawing at the mouth on the way out I (as the rider of a persistent rearer in times gone by) thought was probably her trying to stop a repeat rear by keeping the head down and the quarters less engaged by moving the horse about. Of course I have no idea what was going through her head, just that my interpretation of her actions was probably very different to a lot of people's as I come from a different angle if you see what I mean? The same is true for everyone I guess. 

[/ QUOTE ]

The way I saw it was she felt utterly humiliated (as we all do, low level upwards) that she didn't get to show what she is capable of doing, in front of a huge audience and probably jumping in the class that was fulfilling her childhood dreams - therefore I saw her as keeping herself busy, head down, sparing her blushes, and keeping the horse working, whilst, possibly, trying not to burst into tears - but I do not know her and that could just be the mother coming out in me LOL! 

[/ QUOTE ]

And therein lies my point - maybe we are both right, maybe neither of us are! Perhaps the moral of the story is if you put yourself in the public eye, be prepared to take some flack as you cannot please all of the people all of the time?! (Or is that the moral of posting on HHO...)


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## Weezy (3 July 2007)

Indeed Spotted! (And yes, deffo the moral of posting on HHO too!)


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## k1963 (3 July 2007)

RHT - We all have a right to express an opinion . I speak as someone who has never ridden at top level &amp; never will ( did get a rosette for a clear round at my local riding school when I was 13 though ( my only one ! )


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## jesterfaerie (3 July 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
RHT - We all have a right to express an opinion . I speak as someone who has never ridden at top level &amp; never will  

[/ QUOTE ]

Me too.


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## k1963 (3 July 2007)

You left out my one &amp; only rosette !

I've still got it , won in 1976


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## FRESHMAN (3 July 2007)

Bloody hell K1963. Thats a lot more recent than me then. You must be a mere whippersnapper.  I  won my last rosette when Adam was a lad. 

On a serious note though, I believe everyone is entitled to an opinion &amp; it is pefectly acceptable to voice it. Whichever side of the fence you sit on. None of us are wrong it is just personal opinion.  I am sure we are all agreed that the sport of 'HORSES COMPETING' needs a lift &amp; not a kick in the teeth.
This incident was hardly an AT @ Kentucky situation. &amp; yes that is definately the Mother side of me coming to the fore. 
	
	
		
		
	


	




PS I have still got all my rosettes tucked in a suitcase. I am so sad.


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## jesterfaerie (4 July 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
You left out my one &amp; only rosette !

I've still got it , won in 1976 
	
	
		
		
	


	





[/ QUOTE ]

Well only the first part applied to me, but then again I haven't got many more rosettes than you. We are both in the same boat thought


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## jesterfaerie (4 July 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
It was meant in a good way as a reply to hardcore. She said maybe if she was faced with being the youngest rider in the Derby maybe she would go ahead. 

[/ QUOTE ]

Phew, I wasn't sure if it was ment in a bad way or not, since i mentioned she may have entered the horse for a reason of being faced with the youngest rider title.
Glad it wasn't meant in a bad way


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## k1963 (4 July 2007)

I'm younger than some on here  
	
	
		
		
	


	





Yes , my only rosette is still treasured , like yours


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## FRESHMAN (4 July 2007)

LOL I meant you was definately younger than me at least. Isnt it strange though how we all treasure our rosettes from donkeys years ago. They bring back so many happy memories. My first show was in a bonny pony class. The farmer &amp; his wife where I kept my NF pony used to show shires. They plaited its mane like a shire horse with bright orange wool wired in. I thought we was the bees knees &amp; we only came 3rd. I was so damn proud. That was in 1962.


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## skewbaldpony (4 July 2007)

[ QUOTE ]

PS I have still got all my rosettes tucked in a suitcase. I am so sad. 
	
	
		
		
	


	





[/ QUOTE ]

Mine are in a carrier bag! Even sadder. My kids were going through them the other day. Saying 'aren't they SMALL?'


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## chestnut cob (4 July 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
I emailed the BBC about this . to ask if they condoned animal cruelty.The RSPCA should investigate uder the new Animal Welfare Act.
Geoff Bilington won without a whip! 

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you serious?!  LMFAO!!  Animal cruelty?  Could you have ridden that horse and got a better result without a whip when it put in that dirty stop?  None of us was the rider so I don't think anyone can come up with comments like that.  When you're on national TV doing the Hickstead Derby then you can comment.


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## bandit (4 July 2007)

HI Freshman,

I noticed that as i was sitting in the stands after the wall - the horse is obviously a difficult one, and whilst she is a determined rider and got it over the ditches, she is also rewarding - horse just isnt' the easiest...

Perhaps she'll not mention anything on telly next time - for if she'd kept quiet, I doubt this debate would still be going some 3 days later.

Bx


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## severnmiles (4 July 2007)

As you say she was eliminated in the Derby Trial then I think that backs up what I originally said, the horse should not have been in there.  As you say its compulsory once you have competed in the Derby Trial had I been PD then I'd have jumped the first fence and retired even if my excuse had been that the mare didn't feel right on the ground.

Freshman - what is the qualification for the Derby?


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## severnmiles (4 July 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
unless you've either been at that level, or are at that level then keep quiet...
. 

[/ QUOTE ]

Thats the biggest load of bull5hit I've ever heard.

Are you going to tell Tracy Robinson not to give advice to our British eventing team because she's never ridden in a pre-n let alone a championships!  
	
	
		
		
	


	





Also I take it by that comment none of us should be condemning Amy Tryons decision to carry on over the last fence and the finish line because 'none of us have ridden at 4*'.  What a bizarre take on things.


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## The Voice (4 July 2007)

Blimey Freshman you won a rosette before man had walked on the moon 
	
	
		
		
	


	





It is amazing that someone gives a couple of whacks to a horse and it generates over 100 posts yet the actual achievement of the winner who by his own admission is not a natural athlete and pushing for a pension  
	
	
		
		
	


	




 winning one of the physically hardest courses in showjumping gets far less  
	
	
		
		
	


	




 and with the second place going to someone less than half his age! Strange and slightly sad.

She is a young rider who will learn from the experience and anyone who is comparing her to RW round needs to look back and see what he did when he was younger as he made mistakes, but has matured as he has got more experience like all riders do.


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## Rambo (4 July 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
Freshman - what is the qualification for the Derby? 

[/ QUOTE ]

The qualification for the Derby is as follows :-

- The first 35 'prizewinners' in the Derby Trial

- Past winners of the Derby


So, if 35 or less start the Trial then they all qualify. Anyone can enter the Trial


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## severnmiles (4 July 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Freshman - what is the qualification for the Derby? 

[/ QUOTE ]

The qualification for the Derby is as follows :-

- The first 35 'prizewinners' in the Derby Trial

- Past winners of the Derby


So, if 35 or less start the Trial then they all qualify. Anyone can enter the Trial 
	
	
		
		
	


	





[/ QUOTE ]

Not the greatest of systems then!


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## kayleigh_and_rocky (4 July 2007)

Good point The Voice - i remember RW's first ever derby - it was painful to watch.  Infact im sure i still have it on video somewhere (ah the times before sky plus) horse stopped, he smacked about 3-4times, spun round within a stride, horse stopped again (well duh) smacked it another few times then held onto front end while jump was infront of it and dug in spurs.

Everyone learns from their mistakes.


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## severnmiles (4 July 2007)

Fair point, look at Joe W, he asked his horse about a stride away to pop the fence onto the bank in the speed derby.


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## Seahorse (4 July 2007)

I didn't see it, but from what I can gather the horse stopped, she smacked it and it reared up???

Also don't forget that different horses react in different ways to being smacked, my friends horse doesn't react at all when its been hit quite hard, but my horse will buck and/or rear when he has a little tap down the shoulder. It doesn't mean that I've hit him harder!


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## kayleigh_and_rocky (4 July 2007)

Also - in reply to those saying she hit it too late - well surely she was just trying to gain some control?  Especially if this horse is known to react like that - which im sure it is, im sure thats not the first time its reared and had a hissy fit.  Would have been a lot worse if she smacked it straight away when she didnt have balance and control - then the horse really would have gone over on her.


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## jesterfaerie (4 July 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
Good point The Voice - i remember RW's first ever derby - it was painful to watch.  Infact im sure i still have it on video somewhere (ah the times before sky plus) horse stopped, he smacked about 3-4times, spun round within a stride, horse stopped again (well duh) smacked it another few times then held onto front end while jump was infront of it and dug in spurs.

Everyone learns from their mistakes. 

[/ QUOTE ]

Very true, RW did not have the best first time in the Derby, after the fence you are talking about the commontators expected him to retire but he carried on and I think the horses ended up IN the ditch at the end of the course due to another stop.


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## katherinef (5 July 2007)

I saw it.  The horse nearly went over backwards it reared up absolutely vertical
I think my comment here was "needs to do some work at home"
the use of the stick was justified the way in which it was used was not. the horse was treated quite roughly and I do wonder what happened once the horse was away from the cameras.


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## Puzzles (6 July 2007)

http://www.newrider.com/forum/showthread.php?p=1322423#post1322423

view this link.

what do you think of these responses to the incident?


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## cheeky girl (6 July 2007)

Are you just trying to cause trouble


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## kayleigh_and_rocky (6 July 2007)

I'm not even gonna bother trying anymore.  At the end of the day PD knows her horse - maybe i'm seeing this with totally different eyes but she hit the horse after she had gained control, probably knowing it would react badly (if she had smacked it straight away it really would have gone over backwards as unbalanced or maybe bolted).  Then she PATTED the horse after the wall, yes PATTED it.  
And the sawing on the mouth after, to me that was a person trying to stop her horse from going up again and make it work so it doesn't think its got away with it.

Would have done the exact same thing in that situation.

BTW this reply was to lemony


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## seansheep (6 July 2007)

I think that the horse shouldn't have been in the event - the 'qualification' was merely 'cos she 'appeared' in the trial earlier on in the show - and didn't do well there - so perhaps horse wasn't ready for this event

the horse was stated to have an issue with ditches - so yes - you still must try and compete it in classes with ditches and presume some training/schooling has gone on at home - BUT there are 6 ditches out of a total of 20 jumping efforts on that course - so 30% of the course involves ditches - so in that regard perhaps a course of 15 efforts with one ditch may be more suitable until this problem has been solved.

the horse was wrong at the fence 2nd part and maybe would have jumped it had it not been a ditch but it didn't and put in a dirty stop - so it did need to be sorted and did go back and jump the fence on a better stride and get patted later

my issue tbh is with the sawing at mouth at the exit of the arena - now by the time she'd gotten to the exit the horse would have known that it was 'finished' in that class so why would PD have expected it to rear again - it hadn't reared en route from where it finally got eliminated to the exit, it had been in the arena before that week so knew that it was the exit

so my bigger issue is not with the horse being disciplined (I counted 2 hits but didn't see if the whip was right way up or not) but I don't like seeing horses that have had bad rounds jabbed and/or spurred in the collecting ring/arenaexit- that to me is pure rider temper/frustration being taken out on the horse as it is not anywhere near where any horse (or rider!!) error has occured in the round and it's already been discussed that the discipline should be applied as close in time and place as possible to the error


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## Gonetofrance (6 July 2007)

[ QUOTE ]


And the sawing on the mouth after, to me that was a person trying to stop her horse from going up again and make it work so it doesn't think its got away with it.



[/ QUOTE ]

I mentioned the sawing on the mouth too, and if you tried that on a horse that is a rearer the most likely result is that it will flip up again, not keep it down........ 
	
	
		
		
	


	




 It was horrible to watch and certainly nothing to advocate.  
She hit the horse in temper, I believe it stopped because she didn't have enough impulsion coming into the double and couldn't make the distance properly, thereby doing the sensible thing and stopping rather than crashing thro it. If it was really dirty, it wouldn't have gone the second time. Her mismanaged use of the whip unsettled the horse, and contributed to the round deteriorating.
But she is young, and will hopefully have learned from the experience.


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## Seahorse (6 July 2007)

Just a thought, but if she was eliminated at the same ditch/fence the day before maybe she wanted to take the horse back in the ring to give it a bit of schooling over the same fence.


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## severnmiles (6 July 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
Just a thought, but if she was eliminated at the same ditch/fence the day before maybe she wanted to take the horse back in the ring to give it a bit of schooling over the same fence. 

[/ QUOTE ]

Not the time to school infront of so many hundred thousand.  She would have been better off to have had a quiet word with the organisers.


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## Seahorse (6 July 2007)

true, but would they have let her do you think? Especially with the ground as bad as it was.


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## prose (6 July 2007)

Is this incident available to see online? Also, how did the commentators react, just out of curiosity?

I remember watching Hickstead on TV about 15 years ago (an earlier class--not the Derby), when an Italian rider's horse panicked midway through the Devils' Dyke (cue rider whalloping the horse and Raymond Brooks-Ward saying, rather furiously, "Well, I think we've had quite enough of  _that!_"

I am by no means an expert rider, but I did ride some absolute stinkers growing up, the majority of which were 500 quid liabilities from the local horse market. I can't remember ever using more than a light tap with a schooling whip/loads of leg/sheer bloodymindedness (a "bugger you, you're not throwing me off" type of mindset 
	
	
		
		
	


	




) to solve an apparent problem, whether that was caused by rider error/horse obstinance.


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## severnmiles (6 July 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
true, but would they have let her do you think? Especially with the ground as bad as it was. 

[/ QUOTE ]

Perhaps not, when we run the point to point we always allow others to school around the course but who knows?


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## Laafet (8 July 2007)

Interesting, I think did she hit it too late and as I've said before it is something that at one or another most people have done, just unfortunate after her previous comments on camera that the horse didn't like ditches. Did you see the pic of it in H&amp;H?


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## CharCharSlide (9 July 2007)

severnmiles     [ QUOTE ]


[/ QUOTE ] 

So because Amy knows LS inside out then she was the only one who was qualified to say whether she should pull up or not. Often the whole adrenalin, atmosphere e.t.c gets to someone and in a different situation they would react very differently.

How would you suggest Ben Maher should have reacted to his bay horse in the speed class when it stopped dead at the first fence? Wallop it so it stands up?

How do we know it was a dirty stop? I can't replay it but maybe it slid on the ground/stood on an overreach boot/something in the crowd caught its eye bla bla bla. 




Im not gonna get myself in trouble but there is a reason why both Bens horses stopped in the derby and dont think that because he didnt smack it on telly that they wont of had a telling off since. Just remember everything is not always as it seems.


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## severnmiles (9 July 2007)

Be careful, someone on here has a horse with Ben!


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## jess_asterix (18 July 2007)

She was told by the selectors not to jump that hors ein the derby, she carried on and did it regardless, and from what i have been told has most certainley lost herself a place on the team.


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## KarenX (19 July 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
She was told by the selectors not to jump that hors ein the derby, she carried on and did it regardless, and from what i have been told has most certainley lost herself a place on the team. 

[/ QUOTE ]

Sister Bing isnt her team horse - Utah is and she has been named on the European team, so dont think that is true.


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