# Vote a p mccoy for sports personality - tonight!



## teagreen (19 December 2010)

Remember!

7pm tonight is the start of Sports Personality of the Year 2010. Let's hoist McCoy up to the top spot - a truely dedicated sportsman who loves horses and is the biggest inspiration for young people that I can think of. Grand National winner this year, as well as winning a champion hurdle. He rides at one and a half stone lower than his natural weight, has broken almost every bone in his body including his back, can lose 10lb through sweating alone and does not take a day off from the starvation. Does he moan? Never. 

A dedicated champion - over 3000 winners, 15 times champion jockey.

YOUR VOTE COUNTS! The number will be released tonight, 15p per vote - please please vote for this total champion, do it for equestrianism!


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## JDChaser (19 December 2010)

Absolutely agree, he's a fantastic jockey and a great bloke to boot. It'll be so criminal if he does not win tonight, so we all need to get behind him and vote (preferably more than once!)  x


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## Haniki (19 December 2010)

I'm ready to vote for Mr McCoy!


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## mon (19 December 2010)

I'm split between McCoy Daley and Swann, Daley for such a young age is a credit to sport and family and achieved alot inhis sport , Swann locally born son has one of his jumpers and played against his brother and achieved alot in his sport and mcCoy as horsey


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## teagreen (19 December 2010)

Daley is going to win Young Sports Personality again and hasn't achieved enough to win the 'other' sports personality this year. Amazing sportsman, but not for this competition, so I wouldn't vote for him - his day will undoubtedly come in the Olympics.

I just think that the things McCoy has achieved over his career, culminating in winning the Grand National this year - he is amazing. He doesn't drink or smoke, is dedicated to several charities and his family, what better role model for young people can you get than that? His injuries, his self sacrifice, his love of the horse, it just makes him incredible. I have amazing respect for the man, he's a legend. 

Plus, lets face it, he doesn't have all that long left - he's been at the top for so long, this is our one and probably only chance to recognise a true equestrian great!


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## oldvic (19 December 2010)

What other sportsman has been at the top of his game all year round virtually every day of the week for 15 years? He gives such wisdom to connections of the horses regardless of whether he is likely to ride it again or whether it is ordinary or a superstar and is a great example to us all. He deserves all our votes (several times)!


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## mon (19 December 2010)

couldnt vote for darts players.


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## JDChaser (19 December 2010)

The number is: 09015 22 23 05


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## Wimbles (19 December 2010)

Just rang and spoke to Sue Barker (well a recording) lol! AP has got my vote - first time I've ever voted in anything like that (telephone vote) so he had better win!


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## pastie2 (19 December 2010)

Just done it. 05 is the number!!


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## mon (19 December 2010)

voted


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## Trinity Fox (19 December 2010)

Lets get behind him and vote he is a legend.


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## Django Pony (19 December 2010)

Done!


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## Teaselmeg (19 December 2010)

Voted !!


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## JDChaser (19 December 2010)

Love your dog on the right, so cute!


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## fuzz (19 December 2010)

teagreen said:



			Daley is going to win Young Sports Personality again and hasn't achieved enough to win the 'other' sports personality this year. Amazing sportsman, but not for this competition, so I wouldn't vote for him - his day will undoubtedly come in the Olympics.
		
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To be honest he is a double gold commonwealth champion. How many 16 year olds can say that.

On another note i've voted!!


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## flutterby321 (19 December 2010)

Everyone in my house has just voted for AP, he certainly deserves it!


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## fuzz (19 December 2010)

He won!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## JDChaser (19 December 2010)

Oh God, beyond happy!


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## Wimbles (19 December 2010)

Hugely well deserved!  Yay!!!!


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## Teaselmeg (19 December 2010)

Fantastic !!!


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## Teaselmeg (19 December 2010)

Fantastic !!  So good I had to say it twice ( He He !)


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## TelH (19 December 2010)

Excellent


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## Daffodil (19 December 2010)

Brilliant!!!!!!!!


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## scotlass (19 December 2010)

Excellent result!

Congratulations AP - a quiet and unassuming yet supremely talented jockey


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## silu (19 December 2010)

Yippie, at last, AP should have won it years ago. I hate to think what my phone bill will be but don't care, to still be alive doing what he does is a miracle. Had decided that if he didn't win I was never going to watch the progamme again after over 50 years of watching.A true living legand even if he hadn't won The Grand National.


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## Doris68 (19 December 2010)

Delighted!  Well deserved.


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## Seth (19 December 2010)

He got over 40% of the votes, with 2nd place only getting 10% and 3rd 8%. Pretty cut and dry.


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## Maesfen (19 December 2010)

Great news, he so deserved it and a cracking margin to win by too; definitely not a hollow victory.


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## Alec Swan (20 December 2010)

McCoy owes me a fiver!!

Alec.
Ets,  he's the greatest jump jockey of all time. a.


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## Over2You (20 December 2010)

I am sorry, but is this not the same rider who has been banned multiple times for abusing the whip? I bet they never received a mention during the show. That would be like them awarding it to a racing driver who had been banned several times because of reckless driving. How typical of the BBC.


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## pastie2 (20 December 2010)

Over2You said:



			I am sorry, but is this not the same rider who has been banned multiple times for abusing the whip? I bet they never received a mention during the show. That would be like them awarding it to a racing driver who had been banned several times because of reckless driving. How typical of the BBC.
		
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Another mealy mouthed, misguided, uniformed forum member.


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## Over2You (20 December 2010)

nativetyponies said:



			Great bloke isn't he?


typical bollox from O2Y
		
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Yeah, a top bloke alright.  

Typical garbage response from NP.

PS: Bollox is spelled incorrecly. Run a spell check and you will see.


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## teagreen (20 December 2010)

Over2You said:



			I am sorry, but is this not the same rider who has been banned multiple times for abusing the whip? I bet they never received a mention during the show. That would be like them awarding it to a racing driver who had been banned several times because of reckless driving. How typical of the BBC.
		
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Name the last time McCoy was given multiple bans for using the whip


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## pastie2 (20 December 2010)

nativetyponies said:



			pastie2..we are agreeing again
		
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Its just got to stop! Anyway you cant spell BOLLOX!!


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## Over2You (20 December 2010)

teagreen said:



			Name the last time McCoy was given multiple bans for using the whip 

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Use Google and you will find out. Or what about the time he was furious for not winning the Cheltenham Gold Cup. Hurling his whip to the ground and shouting angrily because Gloria Victis had broken his leg.


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## teagreen (20 December 2010)

Over2You said:



			Use Google and you will find out. Or what about the time he was furious for not winning the Cheltenham Gold Cup. Hurling his whip to the ground and shouting angrily because Gloria Victis had broken his leg.
		
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Where have you got your information from, Animal Aid? He was in tears, not shouting because the horse has broken a leg.

Anyway, I've just read through your previous posts and realised the kind of person you are  So all I'm going to say is I'm very sorry you feel this dedicated, inspirational sportsman shouldnt have won last night, but he did, because he's amazing racing united behind him - hundreds of thousands of votes more than his nearest rival. So go and have a paddy somewhere else, there's always one


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## pastie2 (20 December 2010)

Over2You said:



			Use Google and you will find out. Or what about the time he was furious for not winning the Cheltenham Gold Cup. Hurling his whip to the ground and shouting angrily because Gloria Victis had broken his leg.
		
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Ap was so upset that Gloria Victis had a broken leg that, if I remember right he gave up all his other rides that day. I think that if you knew anything about this man, or had ever listened to any of his intervues, that day at Cheltenham was one of the worst days of his life.  No doubt your knowledge of jump racing and your capabilities on a racehorse would far exeed the brilliance of AP. paddock Jockey springs to mind.


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## 1stclassalan (20 December 2010)

Over2You said:



			I am sorry, but is this not the same rider who has been banned multiple times for abusing the whip? I bet they never received a mention during the show. That would be like them awarding it to a racing driver who had been banned several times because of reckless driving. How typical of the BBC.
		
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You are not alone my friend. Though I have often been racing and thus guilty by association - I can't stand the manner in which some jockeys feel it necessary to literally flog their poor mounts over the line - and the Rules seem to have changed attitudes very little over the years with different standards being applied at the various courses. 

I'm not sure if I've heard Mr McCoy's opinions on horses directly but Ruby Walsh for instance said that he doesn't think much of them at all apart from it's his job. Just don't start me on Lester Piggott!

The whole industry has much to answer for - seeming to delight in breeding highly strung nutcases then keeping them in for 23 out of the 24 hours, teaching them to gallop and little else at the age of two and that's just for the ones that make it - lord help the ones that don't.


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## teagreen (20 December 2010)

I wish I could remember the huge, highlighted quote from yesterdays Racing Post, but it went along the lines of 'People forget us jockeys get into racing because we love horses' - AP McCoy has stated at all times during this campaign that he loves horses, is heartbroken when they get hurt and does it for the love of the horse.

Here is his Twitter post from earlier today:
_Thank you everyone for all your votes and support,also to all the horses and people who made it possible.An amazing once in a lifetime night _

He even thanks the horses - and you say he doesnt love and respect them?! Ruby Walsh may have made his views clear, but don't tar them all with the same brush - AP is totally different, he adores them.

On another note - ever been to a racing yard? The NH horses get plenty of turnout, Jackdaws Castle (Jonjo O'Neills place, Tony mostly rides his horses) has a public footpath through it and you can walk up and see all the poor, mistreated horses lounging about in their paddocks for hours on end. They are treated like kings and loved by their owners, their lads, their trainer and their jockey. Especially AP.

I wish people would do their own research (not look at Animal Aids page or read something from the Daily Mail) before they start on about racing. If you are talking about National Hunt racing, research National Hunt racing. Also have a read on the BHA site about whip rules - probably the most tightly enforced and regulated rules in the world for racing.


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## 1stclassalan (20 December 2010)

teagreen said:



			I wish I could remember the huge, highlighted quote from yesterdays Racing Post, but it went along the lines of 'People forget us jockeys get into racing because we love horses' - AP McCoy has stated at all times during this campaign that he loves horses, is heartbroken when they get hurt and does it for the love of the horse.
		
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Truly wonderful - I did admit that I hadn't heard any personal quotes. I now understand that he says one thing yet does quite another.

How can you love something and then beat it - I'll try it on her indoors shall I? I'm off to have my tea in a moment - hello dear, can't you get that dinner on a bit quicker thrash!

I did what someone else suggested and Googled McCoy whip abuse and received a string the length of my arm along with some very interesting stuff from animal rights folk who may well have an agenda but seem to have collected a vast amount of data that would be hard to dispute of general misuse of the whip by all jockeys.





			On another note - ever been to a racing yard?
		
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Many times, I was almost an owner more than once. 




			The NH horses get plenty of turnout............mistreated horses lounging about in their paddocks for hours on end. They are treated like kings and loved by their owners, their lads, their trainer and their jockey.
		
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Yes, admittedly, I think in general the NH horses get a far better deal all round but when racing are still kept worse than prisoners - indeed if you were to treat prisoners in similar manner you'd likely find yourself banged up!  Some stablestaff truly do love their job and charges but here we are discussing the jockeys.




			I wish people would do their own research.
		
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I do. I have felt the whip to be totally unacceptable in the hands of jockeys for years - they are simply not to be trusted with one - and in many instances I can recall - completely detrimental to their own chances of winning.

I've even had quite a good debate about it with John Francombe who is quite the equal to Mr McCoy and is a strong adherent to the use of the whip, he maintained that one often needs to give a quick slap up the neck to straighten a horse for safety's sake but I feel this is just an excuse.

I grew up in the age of bronco busting cowboys and thank the lord that has long gone - we now live in the age of Monty Roberts.


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## pastie2 (20 December 2010)

1stclassalan said:



			You are not alone my friend. Though I have often been racing and thus guilty by association - I can't stand the manner in which some jockeys feel it necessary to literally flog their poor mounts over the line - and the Rules seem to have changed attitudes very little over the years with different standards being applied at the various courses. 

I'm not sure if I've heard Mr McCoy's opinions on horses directly but Ruby Walsh for instance said that he doesn't think much of them at all apart from it's his job. Just don't start me on Lester Piggott!

The whole industry has much to answer for - seeming to delight in breeding highly strung nutcases then keeping them in for 23 out of the 24 hours, teaching them to gallop and little else at the age of two and that's just for the ones that make it - lord help the ones that don't.
		
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You are clearly emotive of an industry that you dont have a clue about. What about the breeding of ponies on the hills that dont have any chance at all, only to be slaughtered and fed to zoo animals. I have been involved in racing most of my life, the horses have a life that suits them with people that understand them. I am sick and tired of people slagging off racing. Look at the big picture, where there are horses there are idiots, in every spectrum. No horse be it a plodder to a racehorse is safe from ignorance or cruelty.


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## teagreen (20 December 2010)

Okaaaaay  Whatever you think.

Luckily there were 293,152 not so fluffy people who made sure last night that the inspirational legend, one of the best sportsmen of our time, was finally given the crown he deserves.


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## rosie fronfelen (20 December 2010)

Pastie2 these ignoramouses are not worth writing about,Monty Roberts? well that says it all and how progress has progressed, backwards!!!


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## pastie2 (20 December 2010)

rosiefronfelen said:



			Pastie2 these ignoramouses are not worth writing about,Monty Roberts? well that says it all and how progress has progressed, backwards!!!
		
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Lol, Ro, I shall breathe!!!


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## rosie fronfelen (20 December 2010)

i've alwaysbeen your fan,NP, you just never realised- in any case what is a squabble???


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## rosie fronfelen (20 December 2010)

ok then, we make a truce just in time for Christmas.


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## Over2You (20 December 2010)

rosiefronfelen said:



			Pastie2 these ignoramouses are not worth writing about,Monty Roberts? well that says it all and how progress has progressed, backwards!!!
		
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You prefer the good old sacking out method where 'beat 'em til they submit' is the way to go? 

Gee, you happen to give a stuff about animal welfare and you are an ignoramus? I would hate to be your horse.

PS: The plural of ignoramus is spelled ignoramuses. Do not try to insult someone if you can not even spell your insulting nouns properly.


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## pastie2 (20 December 2010)

Over2You said:



			You prefer the good old sacking out method where 'beat 'em til they submit' is the way to go? 

Gee, you happen to give a stuff about animal welfare and you are an ignoramus? I would hate to be your horse.

PS: The plural of ignoramus is spelled ignoramuses. Do not try to insult someone if you can not even spell your insulting nouns properly.
		
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Oh, go and boil your head. We are more concerned about animal welfare than you would ever believe. Less concerned about spelling though.


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## rosie fronfelen (20 December 2010)

Over2You said:



			You prefer the good old sacking out method where 'beat 'em til they submit' is the way to go? 

Gee, you happen to give a stuff about animal welfare and you are an ignoramus? I would hate to be your horse.

PS: The plural of ignoramus is spelled ignoramuses. Do not try to insult someone if you can not even spell your insulting nouns properly.
		
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have you worked in racing at all? i have for years and you talk utter tripe!!!


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## Alec Swan (21 December 2010)

This thread started out as a celebration of the greatest jump jockey,  of all time,  and a brilliant ambassador,  for the sport of kings.  It has become an embarrassment.

Is simple decency,  so completely lacking?

Alec.


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## Over2You (21 December 2010)

pastie2 said:



			Oh, go and boil your head. We are more concerned about animal welfare than you would ever believe. Less concerned about spelling though.
		
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Why don't you go an boil yours first. Let me know what it feels like. As for you and your buddies being concerned about animal welfare. Supporting a 'sport' which kills hundreds of horses a year, racing them at 2-years-old when they haven't finished growing, and sending them hurtling over perilous obstacles from a gallop. Yeah, real concerned.


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## Over2You (21 December 2010)

rosiefronfelen said:



			have you worked in racing at all? i have for years and you talk utter tripe!!!
		
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Thankfully, I have never been involved in racing. I used to love it as a child. Would even be able to predict outcomes of races. Then, I started to question my love of it when I would continually see downed horses not getting up again. I also became more aware of how often horses were thrashed and forced to race (i.e. being blindfolded and shoved into starting boxes). I did a lot of research and was horrified by what I learned. Horses being slaughtered in their hundreds for not being fast enough. Countless foals being shot for having conformation defects (that would not affect their ability of being general riding horses). Also discovering that the racing industry supports (and funds) horrific animal experimentation programs and the shady world of race fixing and doping.

The rose tinted glasses were blown right off my face in other words.


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## Over2You (21 December 2010)

pastie2 said:



			You are clearly emotive of an industry that you dont have a clue about.
		
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Would that be the same industry that funds vivisection and ritualistically kills horses for not being up to the job? I think anti-racing people are more than knowledgeable about it.



			
				pastie2 said:
			
		


			What about the breeding of ponies on the hills that dont have any chance at all, only to be slaughtered and fed to zoo animals.
		
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Like the racing industry has _never_ done that. 



			
				pastie2 said:
			
		


			I have been involved in racing most of my life, the horses have a life that suits them with people that understand them.
		
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They understand them enough to know that their bones and joints have not finished developing at 2-years-old?



			
				pastie2 said:
			
		


			I am sick and tired of people slagging off racing.
		
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People slag it off because it is cruel and barbaric.


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## Over2You (21 December 2010)

1stclassalan said:



			You are not alone my friend. Though I have often been racing and thus guilty by association - I can't stand the manner in which some jockeys feel it necessary to literally flog their poor mounts over the line - and the Rules seem to have changed attitudes very little over the years with different standards being applied at the various courses. 

I'm not sure if I've heard Mr McCoy's opinions on horses directly but Ruby Walsh for instance said that he doesn't think much of them at all apart from it's his job. Just don't start me on Lester Piggott!

The whole industry has much to answer for - seeming to delight in breeding highly strung nutcases then keeping them in for 23 out of the 24 hours, teaching them to gallop and little else at the age of two and that's just for the ones that make it - lord help the ones that don't.
		
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Thank you for your greatly appreciated support.  You are absolutely right. The industry has a lot of questions to answer. The whip rules are a joke. Jockeys will usually only be off for a few days following a ban. As for suspended bans - they are the biggest joke of all. You can break the rules, but you can continue riding for the rest of the day/meeting. So, there is not much incentive to obey the rules.

Regarding breeding. They simply can not stop over producing. There are no penalties whatsoever for this practice. The horses are always the ones who pay the ultimate price.


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## Over2You (21 December 2010)

nativetyponies said:



			PMSL...

Are you some kind of Billy Graham for Animal Aid?
		
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How did you guess??


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## rosie fronfelen (21 December 2010)

Over2You said:



			Why don't you go an boil yours first. Let me know what it feels like. As for you and your buddies being concerned about animal welfare. Supporting a 'sport' which kills hundreds of horses a year, racing them at 2-years-old when they haven't finished growing, and sending them hurtling over perilous obstacles from a gallop. Yeah, real concerned.
		
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you are showing your ignorance dearie, 2 year olds race on the flat, not over  fences- dear oh dear- lol!!


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## Over2You (21 December 2010)

rosiefronfelen said:



			you are showing your ignorance dearie, 2 year olds race on the flat, not over  fences- dear oh dear- lol!!
		
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I was merely summarizing racing by stating several FACTS. Did you not understand that? I know fine well two-year-olds are not raced over jumps.


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## rosie fronfelen (21 December 2010)

Over2You said:



			I was merely summarizing racing by stating several FACTS. Did you not understand that? I know fine well two-year-olds are not raced over jumps.
		
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Ha,Ha,Ha-yeah right!!!


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## rosie fronfelen (21 December 2010)

Over2You said:



			I was merely summarizing racing by stating several FACTS. Did you not understand that? I know fine well two-year-olds are not raced over jumps.
		
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Instead of arguing the toss on this forum, being as you are so knowledgeable and anti racing why not post your views to the Jockey Club instead of making this thread that started out very light heartedly, so emotive??


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## Over2You (21 December 2010)

Cocobeans said:



			I haven't read all this thread but wondered if anyone knew why our WEG teams weren't mentioned in the programme?
		
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It was because Zara didn't compete in the eventing. If she had, it would have been all over the news, and would probably have received a mention during the awards show. People say she has drawn a lot of interest to the sport, but it is ONLY when she is competing herself. Mind you, when Badders XC was shown in its entirety live on BBC2 a few years ago, the BBC got a number of complaints because of the amount of coverage. That was when Zara WAS competing. Sadly, the days of equestrianism getting decent airtime on terrestrial television are long gone.


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## Over2You (21 December 2010)

rosiefronfelen said:



			Ha,Ha,Ha-yeah right!!!
		
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Looks like you have yet to grasp the concept of basic punctuation. That as well as not being able to spell properly. Commas are used to separate sentence elements. Therefore, my sentence did NOT state that two-year-old horses are jump raced.  Your desperate attempts to split hairs will NEVER bother me.


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## rosie fronfelen (21 December 2010)

You sound a very sad and bitter person- i nearly feel sorry for you.


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## rosie fronfelen (21 December 2010)

Over2You said:



			Looks like you have yet to grasp the concept of basic punctuation. That as well as not being able to spell properly. Commas are used to separate sentence elements. Therefore, my sentence did NOT state that two-year-old horses are jump raced.  Your desperate attempts to split hairs will NEVER bother me.
		
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Oh do get off your high horse,and stop nitpicking, iam too old and knackered for english lessons thank you!Nothing desperate about me sweet pea.


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## Over2You (21 December 2010)

rosiefronfelen said:



			You sound a very sad and bitter person- i nearly feel sorry for you.
		
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I am perfectly happy and just as able to dish out praise. I could say the same about you, but you love a horrifically cruel sport. So, I can not pity you.


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## Over2You (21 December 2010)

rosiefronfelen said:



			Oh do get off your high horse,and stop nitpicking, iam too old and knackered for english lessons thank you!Nothing desperate about me sweet pea.
		
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It has been many moons since I was at school. Yet, I still make an effort to spell and punctuate properly. I think it is called having standards. I am also sick of the countless posts on the internet which are more like undecipherable alien codes than English. I blame  sheer laziness and that horrendous 'text speak' for today's illiteracy. 

Here is a link you might find useful. 

http://www.google.com/intl/en_uk/toolbar/ie/index.html


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## rosie fronfelen (21 December 2010)

Over2You said:



			It has been many moons since I was at school. Yet, I still make an effort to spell and punctuate properly. I think it is called having standards. I am also sick of the countless posts on the internet which are more like undecipherable alien codes than English. I blame  sheer laziness and that horrendous 'text speak' for today's illiteracy. 

Here is a link you might find useful. 

http://www.google.com/intl/en_uk/toolbar/ie/index.html

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Considering i only have one working hand to type  with i reckon i cope pretty well!!


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## martlin (21 December 2010)

Oh, good grief, I'm hyperventilating now, I really would never in my wildest dreams have imagined agreeing with Rosie and Pastie... and yet, here I am
O2Y, you are one of a kind and it is not the kind I like.


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## martlin (21 December 2010)

nativetyponies said:



			Scientific Experiments usually are.
		
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## A1fie (21 December 2010)

I was delighted that Tony won SPOTY - he really deserved it.  He is the best  jockey of his time, quite possibly of all time.  

I don't think racing is cruel.  The majority of people who are in it work very hard, for long hours, for very little money.  They do it for the love of the horse.  

The use of the whip is very tightly regulated.  AP said in interview the other week that if the whip were banned - he would be able to manage perfectly without it but that it was useful as an aid. 

It is very easy to look at something and have an opinion without being in full possession of the facts.  It is easy to say 'I don't like the look of this so it is cruel and should be banned'.  

People did that with hunting - the ban hasn't helped the welfare of the fox at all.

If you ban racing - as well as the thousands of people that would be out of a job - you would likely see the end of the thoroughbred.  Then what?  

People could look at every discipline and find fault; dressage is cruel because horses just spend their time going around in circles doing funny moves.  Showjumping is cruel because horses just spend their time going around in circles jumping things.  Eventing then would surely go because it's a combination of both of those plus cross country which is galloping the horse over fixed obstacles.

Endurance - poor horse has to walk/trot/canter for miles.  Showing - horse spends it's time being tarted up to look pretty.  I think even hacking would end up coming in for criticism because surely it's cruel actually sitting on an animal and making him do something you want him to do.  

I can't bear some of the attitudes on here because if you follow them to their natural conclusion - there would be no animals left because people wouldn't be let near them at all.


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## rosie fronfelen (21 December 2010)

Over2You said:



			It has been many moons since I was at school. Yet, I still make an effort to spell and punctuate properly. I think it is called having standards. I am also sick of the countless posts on the internet which are more like undecipherable alien codes than English. I blame  sheer laziness and that horrendous 'text speak' for today's illiteracy. 

Here is a link you might find useful. 

http://www.google.com/intl/en_uk/toolbar/ie/index.html

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wot is thislinkto do wiv me-b is it edukashun?


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## oldvic (21 December 2010)

A1fie said:



			I was delighted that Tony won SPOTY - he really deserved it.  He is the best  jockey of his time, quite possibly of all time.  

I don't think racing is cruel.  The majority of people who are in it work very hard, for long hours, for very little money.  They do it for the love of the horse.  

The use of the whip is very tightly regulated.  AP said in interview the other week that if the whip were banned - he would be able to manage perfectly without it but that it was useful as an aid. 

It is very easy to look at something and have an opinion without being in full possession of the facts.  It is easy to say 'I don't like the look of this so it is cruel and should be banned'.  

People did that with hunting - the ban hasn't helped the welfare of the fox at all.

If you ban racing - as well as the thousands of people that would be out of a job - you would likely see the end of the thoroughbred.  Then what?  

People could look at every discipline and find fault; dressage is cruel because horses just spend their time going around in circles doing funny moves.  Showjumping is cruel because horses just spend their time going around in circles jumping things.  Eventing then would surely go because it's a combination of both of those plus cross country which is galloping the horse over fixed obstacles.

Endurance - poor horse has to walk/trot/canter for miles.  Showing - horse spends it's time being tarted up to look pretty.  I think even hacking would end up coming in for criticism because surely it's cruel actually sitting on an animal and making him do something you want him to do.  

I can't bear some of the attitudes on here because if you follow them to their natural conclusion - there would be no animals left because people wouldn't be let near them at all.
		
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Well said. This post is about the genius called A.P.McCoy and how the public have acknowledged his hard work, dedication, ability and the fact that he is an example to us all. Those that want to argue about spelling and boiling heads, go and do it somewhere else - preferably a playground -and let those who admire A.P.'s talents enjoy his very well deserved success.


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## Over2You (21 December 2010)

rosiefronfelen said:



			wot is thislinkto do wiv me-b is it edukashun?
		
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That was hilarious!! Resorting to sarcasm now you can not provide a shred of evidence to contradict ANY of the facts I have stated??


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## Over2You (21 December 2010)

A1fie said:



			I was delighted that Tony won SPOTY - he really deserved it.  He is the best  jockey of his time, quite possibly of all time.  

I don't think racing is cruel.  The majority of people who are in it work very hard, for long hours, for very little money.  They do it for the love of the horse.  

The use of the whip is very tightly regulated.  AP said in interview the other week that if the whip were banned - he would be able to manage perfectly without it but that it was useful as an aid. 

It is very easy to look at something and have an opinion without being in full possession of the facts.  It is easy to say 'I don't like the look of this so it is cruel and should be banned'.  

People did that with hunting - the ban hasn't helped the welfare of the fox at all.

If you ban racing - as well as the thousands of people that would be out of a job - you would likely see the end of the thoroughbred.  Then what?  

People could look at every discipline and find fault; dressage is cruel because horses just spend their time going around in circles doing funny moves.  Showjumping is cruel because horses just spend their time going around in circles jumping things.  Eventing then would surely go because it's a combination of both of those plus cross country which is galloping the horse over fixed obstacles.

Endurance - poor horse has to walk/trot/canter for miles.  Showing - horse spends it's time being tarted up to look pretty.  I think even hacking would end up coming in for criticism because surely it's cruel actually sitting on an animal and making him do something you want him to do.  

I can't bear some of the attitudes on here because if you follow them to their natural conclusion - there would be no animals left because people wouldn't be let near them at all.
		
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*NONE* of the other disciplines you mentioned have claimed anywhere near as many lives as racing. I have *NEVER* heard of a dressage horse dying during a test. I have watched hundreds upon hundreds of hours of show jumping over the past twenty-or-so years, and can literally count on one hand the number of fatalities I have been witness to. Does eventing kill more than 200-horses a year? Do racehorses get multiple veterinary checks during a race? If they did, many of them would not die of heart attacks.

Did you know your beloved AP has had *FOURTEEN* horses die under him since 1997? For a list of their names, visit: http://www.animalaid.org.uk/h/n/NEWS/news_horse//2403// 

Also this: http://www.animalaid.org.uk/h/n/AA/HOME/ALL/600/ 

Do *NOT* trash Animal Aid. It actually praises some jockeys, but not McCoy for some glaringly obvious reason.


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## pastie2 (21 December 2010)

Over2You said:



*NONE* of the other disciplines you mentioned have claimed anywhere near as many lives as racing. I have *NEVER* heard of a dressage horse dying during a test. I have watched hundreds upon hundreds of hours of show jumping over the past twenty-or-so years, and can literally count on one hand the number of fatalities I have been witness to. Does eventing kill more than 200-horses a year? Do racehorses get multiple veterinary checks during a race? If they did, many of them would not die of heart attacks.

Did you know your beloved AP has had *FOURTEEN* horses die under him since 1997? For a list of their names, visit: http://www.animalaid.org.uk/h/n/NEWS/news_horse//2403// 

Also this: http://www.animalaid.org.uk/h/n/AA/HOME/ALL/600/ 

Do *NOT* trash Animal Aid. It actually praises some jockeys, but not McCoy for some glaringly obvious reason.
		
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You are quite right over2you, horses do die in all sports, people die aswell. Lets all give up and listen to Animal Aid. Because they as an organisation have no bias at all, their jounalism is sensational and of course, would appeal to a silly woman like you.


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## teagreen (21 December 2010)

Ok Over2You, so say racing is banned. What do you propose we do with the thousands of horses left behind? They won't all go to spiffing homes with a loving owner to pat their nose and braid the manes, so what do you think we should do with them all?

The billions racing makes for the economy - where do you propose we get that income from? The thousands who work in racing, namely the stable staff - what do you propose we do with them?

Racing is regulated as tightly as it has ever been, animal welfare has never been higher. The standards of at home and at course care for the horses in second to none - they recieve better vet care than any of my horses would get, because I'd never be able to afford it. Racing isn't ever going to go away, so I'd stop reading Animal Aids sensationalist journalism and get over the fact that racing is here to stay. The success of McCoy in SPOTY proves that.


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## oldvic (21 December 2010)

Over2You said:



*NONE* of the other disciplines you mentioned have claimed anywhere near as many lives as racing. I have *NEVER* heard of a dressage horse dying during a test. I have watched hundreds upon hundreds of hours of show jumping over the past twenty-or-so years, and can literally count on one hand the number of fatalities I have been witness to. Does eventing kill more than 200-horses a year? Do racehorses get multiple veterinary checks during a race? If they did, many of them would not die of heart attacks.

Did you know your beloved AP has had *FOURTEEN* horses die under him since 1997? For a list of their names, visit: http://www.animalaid.org.uk/h/n/NEWS/news_horse//2403// 

Also this: http://www.animalaid.org.uk/h/n/AA/HOME/ALL/600/ 

Do *NOT* trash Animal Aid. It actually praises some jockeys, but not McCoy for some glaringly obvious reason.
		
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All equestrian sports cause death either directly or indirectly. Less horses die eventing but then considerably less horses compete than in racing so the figures are not comparable. Also the other sports are not televised as much or reported to the same extent in the media so the figures are not so much in the public eye. How can you do multiple veterinary checks during a race any more than mid xc or sj round or in the middle of a dressage test? Not necessary or practical. Also, to put into perspective the amount of horses that have died with A.P., 14 horses from well in excess of ELEVEN THOUSAND rides is not so extreme. 
We get the message that you don't like racing. There are many, both human and equine, that love it so accept it and move on. Animals die in many worse situations with extreme suffering. They are the ones we should all be concerned about.


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## LittleTina (21 December 2010)

im so pleased he won. I went to watch racing for the first time ever at Cheltenham 2 weeks ago and it was the best day ive ever had, I really hope I can work in the racing business one day. We shouted hello at Tony and he waved back and was so nice,  x


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## rosie fronfelen (21 December 2010)

Over2You said:



			That was hilarious!! Resorting to sarcasm now you can not provide a shred of evidence to contradict ANY of the facts I have stated??
		
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Do you know,you are a vile and sad person-you need to lighten up or your Christmas will be equally as sad,also what is this evidence you keep harping on about, do you find cheer in carrying on like you are-all i can say is i know from alot of experience about racing, especially NH,nothing to do with your "evidence". i'm getting bored now with your rubbish so i bid thee farewell and a happy Christmas!


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## rosie fronfelen (21 December 2010)

nativetyponies said:



			jamie gray had far more than 14 in less than a year..and he doesnt even fking ride..

i suggest you, and your propaganda machine..that is if you can get anyone to take your campaign seriously, go out and target the REAL perpertrators of horse "cruelty"/"murder" or whatever else you evangelical types like to call it

Do NOT trash Animal Aid?..why ever not?
This country prides itself on free speech, does it not?
		
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NP, you can't educate pork, so you might as well let it stew!!


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## Over2You (22 December 2010)

rosiefronfelen said:



			Do you know,you are a vile and sad person-you need to lighten up or your Christmas will be equally as sad,also what is this evidence you keep harping on about, do you find cheer in carrying on like you are-all i can say is i know from alot of experience about racing, especially NH,nothing to do with your "evidence". i'm getting bored now with your rubbish so i bid thee farewell and a happy Christmas!
		
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Actually, my Christmas will be very happy. I have lots of friends in the real world, not to mention a big family. I will certainly not be thinking of you. Also, with all the rude remarks you have dished out, you are the last person to be calling anybody else "vile." Pot calling the kettle black springs to mind. You also seem to think the racing industry is wonderful and rosy. There are mountains of evidence and facts to suggest otherwise. 

You were getting bored with my rubbish? I was thinking the same about yours.

Goodbye!


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## 1stclassalan (22 December 2010)

pastie2 said:



			You are clearly emotive of an industry that you dont have a clue about. What about the breeding of ponies on the hills that dont have any chance at all, only to be slaughtered and fed to zoo animals. I have been involved in racing most of my life, the horses have a life that suits them with people that understand them. I am sick and tired of people slagging off racing. Look at the big picture, where there are horses there are idiots, in every spectrum. No horse be it a plodder to a racehorse is safe from ignorance or cruelty.
		
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On the contrary, I know quite a lot about the racing world. I will forgive your intended insult as you seem to be passionate in its defence. Racing is undoubtedly exciting, challenging and skillful - what Mr McCoy does is done very well - all I am questioning is whether it SHOULD be done in that particular way.

I am well aware that thousands of horses are kept for no other purpose than racing and that while they are racing, they have a pretty good life but a life that I would equate to a plastic product going through a modern factory when I would prefer handmade craftsmanship.

If you are fed with folks critisizing without all the information you think they need - then I am just as insensed by people like you trying to justify one abuse by exposing another. Use of the whip is wrong. Stupid over breeding is wrong. However; if I was to compare the two in a cold light - I would side with the treatment of pony left completely wild on the moors -it's more akin to nature even it's shot for meat in the end as no one has hit it, kept it banged up etc., during its life.

I agree that there are abuses everywhere - I can't stop any of them but I can offer my opinion in the hope it might influence someone. The journey of a thousand miles begins with the first step.


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## 1stclassalan (22 December 2010)

teagreen said:



			Ok Over2You, so say racing is banned. What do you propose we do with the thousands of horses left behind? They won't all go to spiffing homes with a loving owner to pat their nose and braid the manes, so what do you think we should do with them all?

The billions racing makes for the economy - where do you propose we get that income from? The thousands who work in racing, namely the stable staff - what do you propose we do with them?

Racing is regulated as tightly as it has ever been, animal welfare has never been higher. The standards of at home and at course care for the horses in second to none - they recieve better vet care than any of my horses would get, because I'd never be able to afford it. Racing isn't ever going to go away, so I'd stop reading Animal Aids sensationalist journalism and get over the fact that racing is here to stay. The success of McCoy in SPOTY proves that.
		
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I feel that I am straddling both camps here. I do not campaign for the abolition of Racing - I have merely pointed out Mr McCoy's obvious and undoubted misuse of the whip.

Yes, racing is exciting, it makes a lot of money for the economy and livelioods depend on it but that is no excuse. Reforms have been made - but I would counter that by saying only after most in the industry were brought kicking and screaming into the modern world.

Use of the whip is deeply engrained in the industry - woebetide a jockey that doesn't pick up and looses - it's a steward's enquiry at the least, owners, trainers and punters baying outside. So it needs a firm hand to bring changes about.

Ban the whip. I also question sitting on two year olds but that will ne pushing my luck as the greatest speed is accomplished only in the young - at a cost.


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## 1stclassalan (22 December 2010)

rosiefronfelen said:



			Pastie2 these ignoramouses are not worth writing about,Monty Roberts? well that says it all and how progress has progressed, backwards!!!
		
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Without dwelling too much on personal attributes - do expand your conjecture that anyone with views presumably in opposition to yours are "ignoramouses" - ignorant of what may I ask - you will find me a more than adequate debating partner in many subjects from Nuclear Physics to Mycology with around fifty years detailed experience as an owner and rider.

Do tell how Monty Roberts has progressed backwards. I don't particularly like the man but his ideas are good.


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## 1stclassalan (22 December 2010)

Alec Swan said:



			This thread started out as a celebration of the greatest jump jockey,  of all time,  and a brilliant ambassador,  for the sport of kings.  It has become an embarrassment.

Is simple decency,  so completely lacking?

Alec.
		
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We are discussing the indecent amount of horse thrashing this man has done - in public!


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## Double_choc_lab (22 December 2010)

Over2You said:



			I am sorry, but is this not the same rider who has been banned multiple times for abusing the whip? I bet they never received a mention during the show. That would be like them awarding it to a racing driver who had been banned several times because of reckless driving. How typical of the BBC.
		
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It's actually the public who voted for him - not the BBC so it would appear the an awful lot of people don't agree with you.  We voted three times in our house.


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## 1stclassalan (22 December 2010)

Over2You said:



			It was because Zara didn't compete in the eventing. If she had, it would have been all over the news, and would probably have received a mention during the awards show. People say she has drawn a lot of interest to the sport, but it is ONLY when she is competing herself. Mind you, when Badders XC was shown in its entirety live on BBC2 a few years ago, the BBC got a number of complaints because of the amount of coverage. That was when Zara WAS competing. Sadly, the days of equestrianism getting decent airtime on terrestrial television are long gone.
		
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Horsey sport is toff sport and does not suit the polyunsaturated organic treehugging leftish yoghurt knitters now in charge of the BBC!

The Royal connection is only tolerated because it can be used as a counterbalance.


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## 1stclassalan (22 December 2010)

A1fie said:



			The use of the whip is very tightly regulated.  AP said in interview the other week that if the whip were banned - he would be able to manage perfectly without it but that it was useful as an aid.
		
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Good! Let's ban it today!!!




			It is very easy to look at something and have an opinion without being in full possession of the facts.  It is easy to say 'I don't like the look of this so it is cruel and should be banned'.  

People did that with hunting - the ban hasn't helped the welfare of the fox at all.
		
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The Hunting Act was passed as a blatant lefty hissyfit at the percieved toffs on horses - and that is why it has failed - they forgot the thousands of "ordinary" folks who join in. Of course, that said, you also have to consider that thousands of ordinary folks liked to see Bearbating and Cockfights both of which are banned and that not many people would want to see even if they were allowed. Dog fights are still a blackmarket problem for some.




			People could look at every discipline and find fault; dressage is cruel because horses just spend their time going around in circles doing funny moves.  Showjumping is cruel because horses just spend their time going around in circles jumping things.  Eventing then would surely go because it's a combination of both of those plus cross country which is galloping the horse over fixed obstacles.

Endurance - poor horse has to walk/trot/canter for miles.  Showing - horse spends it's time being tarted up to look pretty.  I think even hacking would end up coming in for criticism because surely it's cruel actually sitting on an animal and making him do something you want him to do.  

I can't bear some of the attitudes on here because if you follow them to their natural conclusion - there would be no animals left because people wouldn't be let near them at all.
		
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Now, you really are stretching your point way beyond all possible elastication! What some of us are concerned with is :- unnecessary cruelty. Misuse of the whip is bad. I would say that any use is bad while others, as do the Jockey Club at present, think that some use is acceptable - however as this will always be debateable a complete ban has no arguement.


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## 1stclassalan (22 December 2010)

Double_choc_lab said:



			It's actually the public who voted for him - not the BBC so it would appear the an awful lot of people don't agree with you.  We voted three times in our house.
		
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The BBC decide who is on the list! They EDIT everything - including the news! On top of that - by your own admission - they accept three votes from one house - I do hope that was from different phones!


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## rosie fronfelen (22 December 2010)

1stclassalan said:



			Without dwelling too much on personal attributes - do expand your conjecture that anyone with views presumably in opposition to yours are "ignoramouses" - ignorant of what may I ask - you will find me a more than adequate debating partner in many subjects from Nuclear Physics to Mycology with around fifty years detailed experience as an owner and rider.

Do tell how Monty Roberts has progressed backwards. I don't particularly like the man but his ideas are good.
		
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Look here,i've had enough of you buggers  going on about as i said before was a light hearted thread about SPOTY but its turned into something unpleasant, i'm a frigging farmerswife and ex-hunter and not into Nuclear Physics or Mycology, whatever that is(what do these things have to do with the subject in hand god knows!)why would i want to  debate it with you anyway???As for Monty, im a non believer- does that make me a devils disciple?


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## 1stclassalan (22 December 2010)

rosiefronfelen said:



			Look here,i've had enough of you buggers  going on about as i said before was a light hearted thread about SPOTY but its turned into something unpleasant, i'm a frigging farmerswife and ex-hunter and not into Nuclear Physics or Mycology, whatever that is(what do these things have to do with the subject in hand god knows!)why would i want to  debate it with you anyway???As for Monty, im a non believer- does that make me a devils disciple?
		
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Hmm..... I rather think it was you who, if not starting this thread to be "unpleasant" has certainly sought to purpetuate it as such! Reference "you buggers" ( kindly think on what that actually means!) and substitute expletives "frigging." 

I would much rather you enter the debate properly and maintain your cool! And yes, I do believe that you want to debate the subject or else you'd stay away. Explain why you think it's O.k. to whip your horse - or watch someone else do it - if you truly believe it - you should be able to justify.

If you don't "believe" in Monty - tell us how you break-in - your methods might be just as understanding - don't immediately jump to the conclusion that I will be anti just because your views are different.


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## rosie fronfelen (22 December 2010)

1stclassalan said:



			Hmm..... I rather think it was you who, if not starting this thread to be "unpleasant" has certainly sought to purpetuate it as such! Reference "you buggers" ( kindly think on what that actually means!) and substitute expletives "frigging." 

I would much rather you enter the debate properly and maintain your cool! And yes, I do believe that you want to debate the subject or else you'd stay away. Explain why you think it's O.k. to whip your horse - or watch someone else do it - if you truly believe it - you should be able to justify.

If you don't "believe" in Monty - tell us how you break-in - your methods might be just as understanding - don't immediately jump to the conclusion that I will be anti just because your views are different.
		
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Just to please you i am pulling out of this thread cos enough is enough, i was taught the traditional way of breaking in, lunging, long reining over a good period of time,but that is alll i am prepared to say!!


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## pastie2 (22 December 2010)

rosiefronfelen said:



			Just to please you i am pulling out of this thread cos enough is enough, i was taught the traditional way of breaking in, lunging, long reining over a good period of time,but that is alll i am prepared to say!!
		
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Well said Rosie, the above poster to whom you replied, has I think been reading too many posts by judgemental, he has that same tone!


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## MotherOfChickens (22 December 2010)

Over2You said:



			. Also discovering that the racing industry supports (and funds) horrific animal experimentation programs
		
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those studies benefit all horses and ponies and actually, racing funds the majority of equine veterinary research in the UK.racing funds research into lameness and disease. very little equine research involves experimentation in the way you are inferring anyway. people like you bleating on about animal experimentation without explanation does nothing but harm research that benefits horses all over. I am not a fan of the industry itself but more than any other part of the equine industry, they put back in wrt research.


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## Over2You (23 December 2010)

Cocobeans said:



			Thanks for replying to me. That is so sad. I have to say I get really annoyed about the lack of horse sports on TV. Horse & Country show some but say they can't always get permission to film at events which is really bad.
		
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You are very welcome.  Your question warranted a reply. I think it is such a shame that equestrianism is all too often overlooked. As 1stclassalan pointed out, the BBC (or those Bloody British Channels as I like to call them) seem to think equestrian sport is for "toffs". However, they will show blanket coverage of F1 racing where each of the cars cost millions of pounds (i.e., way out of the reach of most people). Horse riding is something a lot more people can do than driving around in one of those cars. They would also much rather broadcast endless repeats of Murder, She Wrote, Diagnosis Murder, and a gargantuan amount of mediocre quiz shows. Oh, and please do NOT get me started on Wimbledong. To think Hickstead was dropped this year in order to devote more time to that strawberries and cream fest.  

You also mention that Horse and Country have been denied filming permits. That too is a great pity. You'd have thought show organisers would have been all too happy for the publicity. Their loss I suppose.

If I don't encounter you again, then I hope you have a wonderful Christmas. 

Bye for now.


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## Holly Hocks (28 December 2010)

Wow, only just read this - can't believe I missed a good scrap!!
Can those who are against racing please explain to me, how why,  when I took my 20 year old ex-racer to a local trainer's gallops last year - a gallops he had never been on in his life before, he lit up, came alive and showed more enthusiasm than he had done in years??  God he  really must have hated it mustn't he??

On the other hand, I can also see some of the views of those who aren't keen on racing.  An acquaintance of mine is friends with some of the top flat racing trainers in the country.  He went to a sales recently with some of the staff from one of these yards.  They left a horse behind - when acquaintance asked why, the man's reply was " Should have run faster then shouldn't it - let the gypos have it, it's no use to us".  Not exactly the words of a caring trainer/owner.  Trainers and owners are very caring.........when the horse is winning and making them money.


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## 1stclassalan (28 December 2010)

rosiefronfelen said:



			Just to please you i am pulling out of this thread cos enough is enough, i was taught the traditional way of breaking in, lunging, long reining over a good period of time,but that is alll i am prepared to say!!
		
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You pulling off, without being prepared to debate your methods won't please me at all - what makes you think it has any bearing on the subject?

I was also taught "traditional way of breakin-in" which involved every abuse right up to the same sort of bronco busting that made Monty Roberts question it - there has to be a better way. If you don't know, please be advised that Monty was treated almost the same by his father in order to make him into a cowboy - and he was - Champion Cowboy for quite a few years so I think someone who has done one sort of thing but decides to change deserves a listen.

You can certainly "break" a horse by violent means "cruel to be kind" and all that sort of thing but in my opinion they all belong in the cockpit of history now that more human methods are available and shown to work.


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## 1stclassalan (28 December 2010)

Holly Hocks said:



			Wow, only just read this - can't believe I missed a good scrap!!
Can those who are against racing please explain to me, how why,  when I took my 20 year old ex-racer to a local trainer's gallops last year - a gallops he had never been on in his life before, he lit up, came alive and showed more enthusiasm than he had done in years??  God he  really must have hated it mustn't he??

On the other hand, I can also see some of the views of those who aren't keen on racing.  An acquaintance of mine is friends with some of the top flat racing trainers in the country.  He went to a sales recently with some of the staff from one of these yards.  They left a horse behind - when acquaintance asked why, the man's reply was " Should have run faster then shouldn't it - let the gypos have it, it's no use to us".  Not exactly the words of a caring trainer/owner.  Trainers and owners are very caring.........when the horse is winning and making them money.
		
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My dad used to thrash the living daylights out of me for no other reason but that I was handy! I still go to see him and have a laugh. 

Horses have a deeply rooted fleeing mechanism - I'm sure we've all departed into the distance at a speed not of our bidding when our mounts suddenly picked up the urge! But this is not necessarily because they "like" it - they are just slaves to their hormones. They sense chemicals left by other horses or even react to perceived scary places and take off in a perfectly natural desire to outdistance a threat - whether real or imaginary. 

And my dear old mare was still doing this aged 33 ten minutes before she died but I didn't hit her to make her do it.

Your other point is the downside of racing - it has a lot of members who I'd gladly put in a tin.


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## Maesfen (28 December 2010)

1stclassalan said:



			I was also taught "traditional way of breakin-in" which involved every abuse right up to the same sort of bronco busting that made Monty Roberts question it - there has to be a better way. .
		
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You weren't taught very well then if that's the case.  No bullying needed at all if it's done (like Rosie says) gently and methodically as so many of us do to get an enjoyable, happy horse that's happy in its work.  Your teacher had to be rubbish if they used any bullying methods, it's totally unnecessary but I wouldn't bow down to the church of Monty for anything, I wouldn't trust him with a rocking horse..


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## 1stclassalan (28 December 2010)

Maesfen said:



			You weren't taught very well then if that's the case.  No bullying needed at all if it's done (like Rosie says) gently and methodically as so many of us do to get an enjoyable, happy horse that's happy in its work.  Your teacher had to be rubbish if they used any bullying methods, it's totally unnecessary but I wouldn't bow down to the church of Monty for anything, I wouldn't trust him with a rocking horse..
		
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If you aren't promoting a "bashing about" method - I don't know why you are arguing. This side of the thread developed out of Mr McCoy's undoubted misuse of the whip and that is the ONLY thing I was discussing. 

That said, I'm interested in just why you wouldn't trust Monty - I don't think he comes across in life as he does in his books so I'm willing to hear the bad and any good.


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## Caledonia (28 December 2010)

Well how sad that a thread celebrating the most incredible jockey we have ever seen is sullied by the usual suspect and a relative newbie (or possibly a trolling alter ego of a current member  ) promoting one of the biggest charlatans the horse world has ever seen. 

This is the LATEST NEWS section, perhaps you'd get a better response about such old hat in New Lounge.


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## 1stclassalan (28 December 2010)

Caledonia said:



			Well how sad that a thread celebrating the most incredible jockey we have ever seen
		
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May he's the greatest that you have seen but I remember John Francombe, ( at least on a par if not better, Dunwoody, Pat Taft and even guys like Ben DeHaan who were good but failed through politics to get enough good rides.




			is sullied
		
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It's not me that's thrashing a horse with a whip.




			a relative newbie (or possibly a trolling alter ego of a current member )
		
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Don't shoot me - I'm only the piano player.




			promoting one of the biggest charlatans the horse world has ever seen.
		
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I would dearly love you to fully explain that comment.


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## Caledonia (28 December 2010)

1stclassalan said:



			May he's the greatest that you have seen but I remember John Francombe, ( at least on a par if not better, Dunwoody, Pat Taft and even guys like Ben DeHaan who were good but failed through politics to get enough good rides.
		
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I remember them too - I even know one of them. They might prefer you to have spelt their names correctly, however; John Francome, Pat Taffe. 

Ben DeHaan was a decent jockey, as are so many journeyman jockeys that don't get the chance to shine. I'm sure he'd agree he's not exceptional enough to be compared with AP any more than plenty other unheralded jockeys.

AP has taken riding in racing to a whole new level, and that is why he is the most incredible (I didn't say greatest) jockey I have seen. He wouldn't necessarily be my choice of jockey for certain horses, but that is not to denigrate the man. We are in an era of incredible talent on the racetrack, and AP has not let riding at top level stop him working just as hard at his sport as he did when he was trying to get to the top. 

I'm not about to fall into the infantile pedantry of tit for tat answering, so suffice to say that you have no REAL understanding of racing with your knee -jerk comments and reactions. 
As far as the whip goes, if you have no comprehension of how useful a tool it is in keeping a horse straight, then you have no understanding of the horse in the first place. These guys are dealing with different horses several times a day, every day of the week. Some will not respond to a whip, some don't need it, some need a tap to stop them running through the wings or drifting across into other horses. Sure, AP being possibly the strongest jockey riding might not need it, but I bet most trainers would rather their jockey had a whip to possibly avert a problem than have the horse or jockey get hurt because the steering went a bit wonky.  

As far as fully explaining my other comment, feel free to start a thread elsewhere, and I may or may not be bothered repeating myself for the hundredth time on the topic of charlatans. But I won't do it on this thread.


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## Holly Hocks (28 December 2010)

1stclassalan said:



			My dad used to thrash the living daylights out of me for no other reason but that I was handy! I still go to see him and have a laugh. 

Horses have a deeply rooted fleeing mechanism - I'm sure we've all departed into the distance at a speed not of our bidding when our mounts suddenly picked up the urge! But this is not necessarily because they "like" it - they are just slaves to their hormones. They sense chemicals left by other horses or even react to perceived scary places and take off in a perfectly natural desire to outdistance a threat - whether real or imaginary. 

And my dear old mare was still doing this aged 33 ten minutes before she died but I didn't hit her to make her do it.

Your other point is the downside of racing - it has a lot of members who I'd gladly put in a tin.
		
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Whilst I appreciate that you are entitled to your opinion and I can see both sides of the racing argument - I love watching racing, going to the races and having a flutter.  I am also fully aware of what happens to SOME horses after their career and I am not narrow minded enough to only be able to see the positives, or the negatives in racing, as I previously pointed out.  I am fortunate enough to have two ex-racers and have had a third who was rehomed to a lovely person as he was rather to big for me at 17.1hh!
I am also fully aware of the flight reaction of horses but I do not wish to be told that when I took my beautiful boy on the trainers gallops, he was fleeing through instinct and fear.  I know my horses well enough to know when they are happy or unhappy.  He was not out of control bolting, he was enjoying every minute with his ears pricked.  Afterwards, if he was ever hacked in the direction of the gallops, he would get a spring in his step and wake up.  It is no different from having a canter out on a hack in a field, or would you prefer it if horses were only ever walked or moved at a pace they chose, or in fact not ridden at all??
I do respect your views, but without knowing me, or my horses, please don't tell me when they are happy or unhappy or acting through instinct.  My old boy is almost 21, and despite injuries from racing and since being in racing, he is amazingly beautiful, happy, fit and still competing in dressage (or do you consider that to be cruel as well?)


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## oldvic (28 December 2010)

John Francome is a superb horseman and his show jumping experience showed in his ability to get horses jumping in a rhythm but he would be the 1st to admit he didn't have A.P.'s commitment to the lesser lights round the gaffes. He also rode when there was no summer jumping and fewer race meetings.
Pat TAAFFE was renowned for his work out in the country but not in a finish and of course for his association with Arkle and Flyingbolt and winning the National on Gay Trip. He would not have ridden winners day in day out like A.P.
Richard Dunwoody was a very fine jockey and horseman and was very committed but didn't inspire horses in the way A.P does on a day to day basis (my opinion although a great admirer of Richard's).
I am sure Ben de Haan would be amused at being compared to A.P. While a good rider, he didn't get more opportunities for a reason. 

A.P.'s whip infringements were a long time ago at a time when the rules were changing. Strength and power have nothing to do with abuse. The man loves horses (and they him)and has a great feel for them. He seldom gets "done" nowadays. There are many horses that are inadvertently abused by equine do-gooders and it is these people that might be better suited to 1stclassalan's attention.
Caledonia is absolutely right that this post is dedicated to an incredible jockey and an inspirational man, not for making uninformed statements.


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## Over2You (29 December 2010)

Maesfen said:



			You weren't taught very well then if that's the case.  No bullying needed at all if it's done (like Rosie says) gently and methodically as so many of us do to get an enjoyable, happy horse that's happy in its work.  Your teacher had to be rubbish if they used any bullying methods, it's totally unnecessary but I wouldn't bow down to the church of Monty for anything, I wouldn't trust him with a rocking horse..
		
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Rosie did NOT say gently. Her exact words were: " i was taught the traditional way of breaking in, lunging, long reining over a good period of time,but that is alll i am prepared to say!!". 

She would not elaborate on how much force she uses. Not being willing to divulge such information is a sure sign of hiding something. Not a good something either.

As for Monty. When he was just a child, he had almost every single bone in his body broken by an extremely abusive father. He also witnessed him abusing a great many horses with his 'traditional methods'. He vowed to make the world a better one for horses and humans. One without cruelty or abuse. He is not against racing, but has been a long term advocate for whip-less racing. He works with more horses in one year than most would in a lifetime. He has proven countless times that horses can still win races without one. I am a lot more inclined to believe him than anybody who thinks it is okay to thrash another living  being. Besides, if you can not ride without a whip, then you should not be riding at all. I for one have NEVER used one.


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## Over2You (29 December 2010)

oldvic said:



			John Francome is a superb horseman and his show jumping experience showed in his ability to get horses jumping in a rhythm but he would be the 1st to admit he didn't have A.P.'s commitment to the lesser lights round the gaffes.
		
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The same John Francome who thinks the best place for those not fast enough is in the belly of a greyhound. He is quoted as having said that in ITV's Network First racing expose (They Shoot Horses Don't They?).  



			
				oldvic said:
			
		


			A.P.'s whip infringements were a long time ago at a time when the rules were changing.
		
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What? A lot of his bans have been within the past few years. One of the most recent being last year. 



			
				oldvic said:
			
		


			The man loves horses (and they him)and has a great feel for them. He seldom gets "done" nowadays.
		
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 So he shows that love by thrashing them? As I said he was given a ban only last year.  



			
				oldvic said:
			
		


			Caledonia is absolutely right that this post is dedicated to an incredible jockey and an inspirational man, not for making uninformed statements.
		
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Uninformed statements? The man has been banned on numerous occasions for breaking the rules. This is *FACT*. He keeps on doing it, so what is incredible or inspirational about that?


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## Maesfen (29 December 2010)

Excuse me if I don't find the violins for him (MR) but this has nothing to do with the OP so it would be good to get back to congratulating AP on his hard earned success; that's what this thread is about, nothing else.


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## Over2You (29 December 2010)

Maesfen said:



			Excuse me if I don't find the violins for him (MR)
		
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That has to be one of the coldest, most callous comments written on these boards. Child abuse is clearly okay in your books. 



			
				Maesfen said:
			
		


			so it would be good to get back to congratulating AP on his hard earned success; that's what this thread is about, nothing else.
		
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Yes, this thread is about his winning the BBC award. But, it should also be open to those who question his win. I find it beyond reproach that he was even nominated. It does not say much for sport when someone who continually breaks the rules wins an award for his conduct. This is akin to an athlete being congratulated for repeated doping offences.


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## teagreen (29 December 2010)

Then kindly start your own thread about how cruel McCoy is and don't take over my thread. You are clearly outnumbered on this thread, so go and take your Animal-Aid-influenced views to another thread where fellow racing-haters can applaud you. I do not wish to argue with you, but why don't you conduct some research into showjumping? I've been to many an unaffiliated event where I have seen some APPAULING sights, far worse than I have seen at any racecourse, and you know that that abuse does not stop when the horse leaves the showground. Racehorses are treated 100x better than a lot of general purpose horses I know - I'd rather be a racehorse than the poor sods I saw driving past a field today, thin and out in the cold with no human contact at all, but the authorities will do nothing about them because they are not 'starving' and their owner peers at them every so often.

You don't like racing and don't like the fact AP won SPOTY. WE GET IT. Now move on and, if you think other people will like to hear what you have to say, start your own thread in New Lounge.


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## Caledonia (29 December 2010)

Over2you - what do you think happens to all the unwanted showjumpers? Or dressage horses? 

I'd like you also to justify how a doping ban compares to a whip ban? 

And finally, if you knew the tricks a few of top show jump riders employed to get horses into the air, you'd be disgusted. But instead you attack the ONLY horse sport where EVERY race is visible and therefore EVERY action is accountable. 

Wake up - if you want to do something to prevent animal abuse, stand at the docks and watch the dodgy dealers trading abattoir animals back and forth and selling them on in the UK as sound, well-bred WBs. And guess what? A lot of those dealers are involved as or in the sport of show jumpers.

APs strength, unlike some other jockeys, is not whip reliant. Yet again you dive in on any racing thread you can to repeat your ignorant and offensive opinions. I think you need to learn the difference between facts and your chosen tunnel-visioned viewpoint.


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## Over2You (29 December 2010)

Caledonia said:



			Over2you - what do you think happens to all the unwanted showjumpers? Or dressage horses? 

I'd like you also to justify how a doping ban compares to a whip ban? 

And finally, if you knew the tricks a few of top show jump riders employed to get horses into the air, you'd be disgusted. But instead you attack the ONLY horse sport where EVERY race is visible and therefore EVERY action is accountable. 

Wake up - if you want to do something to prevent animal abuse, stand at the docks and watch the dodgy dealers trading abattoir animals back and forth and selling them on in the UK as sound, well-bred WBs. And guess what? A lot of those dealers are involved as or in the sport of show jumpers.

APs strength, unlike some other jockeys, is not whip reliant. Yet again you dive in on any racing thread you can to repeat your ignorant and offensive opinions. I think you need to learn the difference between facts and your chosen tunnel-visioned viewpoint.
		
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I know all about the cruelty involved in other sports. Such as rapping, rollkur, and electrified top poles. However, NO other sport (besides racing), competes horses when they are still babies. Nor do they have as much wastage. I have watched show jumping for at least twenty-years, and can literally count on one hand, the number of equine fatalities I have been witness to. Whereas with racing, a similar death toll can occur at ONE meeting.  

My ignorance? Look at this:

http://www.google.co.uk/search?sour...&rlz=1T4ACPW_enGB386GB386&q=ap+mccoy+whip+ban


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## teagreen (29 December 2010)

Over2You said:



			My ignorance? Look at this:

http://www.google.co.uk/search?sour...&rlz=1T4ACPW_enGB386GB386&q=ap+mccoy+whip+ban

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Maybe you're looking at a different link to me, but all I can see from that is something about a one day ban in 2009, then some stuff from 1999-2004 when McCoy admits he had a problem with the whip, got heavily banned for it, then worked hard on the mechanical horse to fix it. His last ban (of one day, not for overuse of the whip, but for using it once on the wrong area) was on New Years day 2010. So a year ago. I think you'll find there are very heavy penalities for actually marking the horse with the whip - which might, obviously, have hurt it. If a horse is found to be marked, there are harsh penalities for the jockey involved. Not one or two day bans. Ever held a racing whip? Think it hurts the horse when it's flat out galloping? If you think it does, I suggest you do some proper research.

Open your eyes, go to some Affiliated and Unaff SJ competitions, or to some local riding schools. There may not be any deaths, but look at some of the sustained abuse that goes on. Racehorses are treated like kings - a lot of your everyday horses are not. Why not campaign for areas of real animal abuse?


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## Caledonia (29 December 2010)

Over2You said:



			I know all about the cruelty involved in other sports. Such as rapping, rollkur, and electrified top poles. However, NO other sport (besides racing), competes horses when they are still babies. Nor do they have as much wastage. I have watched show jumping for at least twenty-years, and can literally count on one hand, the number of equine fatalities I have been witness to. Whereas with racing, a similar death toll can occur at ONE meeting.  

My ignorance? Look at this:

http://www.google.co.uk/search?sour...&rlz=1T4ACPW_enGB386GB386&q=ap+mccoy+whip+ban

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Bless you, if you think that's all than happens then you really don't have a scooby, do you? 

Please direct me to;

The records of ALL horses bred to do SJ and dressage? Including those that survive and those that do not, whether stillborn or whatever?

The records that document EVERY time a horse enters or leaves a competition yard?

The records of every horse bred to SJ or dressage that then competes with EVERY time it has competed? 

The records that detail the medical history of that horse? 

The records that show how often that horse is checked by the vet for proof of ID every time it competes? 

The records that hold the blood typing and DNA for EVERY horse that competes to prove ID?

Until that evidence and documentation exists for all horses in EVERY discipline, then the sports are incomparable. 

Racing is an easy target simply because all that information is accessible. It doesn't even EXIST in other sports, so statistical comparison means nothing. If you are naive enough to not know the wastage rate in dressage and SJ horses that is hidden behind the scenes then maybe you need to find out. But I wish you luck if you choose to pursue that as your next vendetta. There are no such records. 

Just as a point of interest, how young do you think some of these high performance horses are started abroad? Have you watched the sales where the (top range, very expensive ) 3yos are already performing intensively trained lateral movements?

Now, don't for a minute get me wrong, I believe that there are horses capable of working at a young age, just as there are those that are not. 

Your ignorance in dismissing a lot of veterinary research into the proven fact that working 2yos actually strengthens their soft tissues and bones, moreso than those of their unworked age group, is incredulous.

Back to AP - your search was for a whip ban - what did you expect to come up? His landing on the moon? Get real - google AP McCoy on it's own, and the whip is not mentioned. 

You know, I try very hard to make my argument on forums factual and not personal, but your hypocrisy and venom towards a sport you clearly know very little about makes that extremely difficult for me.


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## oldvic (29 December 2010)

Absolutely right Teagreen. There is far more abuse through ignorance and poor riding than what you see on the racecourse. A 1 day ban is more of a warning to be careful than anything else. I don't expect the critics of A.P. have had anything to do with the horses that A.P. has ridden so they wouldn't know how the horses come out of their races. He is incredible for his willpower, strength, humour, consistency, dedication, etc. He is inspirational for his feel and understanding of horses, compassion, ability, will to win, etc. He commands great resect from "those in the know", it is just those who don't know who fail to see his merits.


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## CorvusCorax (29 December 2010)

AP got 40% of the vote.
Those who think he is a cruel, horse beating monster, are clearly in the minority.
Oh dear, what a pity, never mind, The End.


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## Fantasy_World (29 December 2010)

oldvic said:



			Absolutely right Teagreen. There is far more abuse through ignorance and poor riding than what you see on the racecourse. A 1 day ban is more of a warning to be careful than anything else. I don't expect the critics of A.P. have had anything to do with the horses that A.P. has ridden so they wouldn't know how the horses come out of their races. He is incredible for his willpower, strength, humour, consistency, dedication, etc. He is inspirational for his feel and understanding of horses, compassion, ability, will to win, etc. He commands great resect from "those in the know", it is just those who don't know who fail to see his merits.
		
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Very well said!
 I have been lucky enough to see a few of McCoy's mounts at very close range both pre and post race. While I do admit that in his younger days he was partial to a bit of overuse of the whip, he has since learned a lot about race-riding since then and is very much a reformed character. 
He wasn't champion jockey 15 times for nothing. It wasn't just his will to win that helped to secure those victories. They also derived from loyal trainers and owners and not forgetting a very good agent!
He is admired by many people in National Hunt racing and if an owner or trainer thought he would abuse a horse today just to win then they are barking ( not aimed at you, Oldvic btw). 
Fact is that if he wasn't respected for his riding abilities and ability to try and secure a win without damage to a horse, physically or mentally then he wouldn't get the rides.
Trainers want winners so that it helps to pay all the yard bills and provide them with a 'status' in the sport. Most owners want their horses to achieve multiple successes not one hit wonders. If a horse was broken down physically or mentally would it be able to achieve a high success rate, the answer is no.
Trainers have to ensure that the horses keep as sweet as possible, as they are not machines and even the sanest of horses in racing can become to set in a routine. Hence why the likes of trainers such as Kim Bailey ( for example) would send horses such as Gold Cup winner Master Oats out hunting. 
The jockeys that ride also have a demanding job. 
It is their responsibility to look after the welfare of a horse they are riding. To not over exert an unfit horse for example. 
It is not just a case of getting a leg up and riding the horse around a couple of circuits of a track.
Racing is far more complex than that. 
It can take months, even years to line a horse up for a particular target or targets for a season. How could those successes take place if a horse was over-raced, abused or over-faced throughout its career.
Whilst it may be fair to say that some horses perhaps don't have that winning ability, Quixall Crossett springs to mind as a classic example. Racing 103 times under rules and only achieving 2 seconds and 6 thirds during that time. I don't see how it would be fair to say that the horse did not enjoy its racing. 
If connections of horses did not look after their charges both on and off the track then would the likes of a horse like Quixall have been able to race every season from 1990 to 1999? Amazing when you consider just how little financial reward connections of that horse received as a result of his failure on the track. 
I would like to hear about any other horse sport that would have allowed a horse to compete mainly for appearance money. If he had been in some other sports I can think of then the horse would have most likely been placed in a hack home if it was lucky. It certainly wouldn't have been afforded the duty of care of a racehorse for so long in other sports. 
Yes horses do compete a young age in racing and I personally do have a few issues with 2 year olds racing and some 3 year olds jumping hurdles. 
However the same could be said about other horse sports. It's just that most of that training of youngsters goes on behind closed doors and is not televised on TV, unlike racing!


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## A1fie (29 December 2010)

Brilliant post cazee and very well said.


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## 1stclassalan (30 December 2010)

I would agree with much of your post Cazee - many other disciplines exert unacceptable punishment on horses. I have personally seen a member of the German National Dressage team merciless lay into his mount just outside the ring -( luckily I had a few words of his own tongue ) he was later cautioned by the Stewards after many complaints. I have also witnessed many cruelties in showjumping too. Most of these abuses can be laid firmly at the door of profit - bash the horse to make more money. 

As a boy I actually rode in country races in the days when you would have been certified if you didn't want to thrash your mount home - it was expected, just so you looked like a jockey. I was once boxed by several farm boys who obviously objected to me beating them the week before so they laid about me aswell - the funny thing was, this frightened my horse so much we won again.

Of course all the folks in racing want the gravy train to continue and provide great stable care, food etc., on average but we still come up this business of the whip and in the case in point - although Mr McCoy has managed to win a lot of races - I do wonder whether he should be considered The "Sports" Personality of the Year in the same way I shuddered at Norman Hunter ( Leeds United) getting ( oh, my memory - it was certainly a similar award ) just before being filmed having an almighty punch-up on the pitch.


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