# Is Hunting becoming ridiculously 'Elite'?



## spotty_pony2 (21 August 2015)

As title. 

Is it just me who is finding this, or is this the 'norm'? Cap and Subscription prices just seem to keep shooting up, and are pretty much unaffordable to most 'normal' horsey folk. I think this is extremely unfair, as it should be made available for all to support. How do they expect to get supporters with such high prices?! Are they trying to deter people from coming?! 

I have more or less had it implied that I 'should' subscribe this season but cannot afford to do so. Can Hunt on Caps but that would only allow me to do 4 days!  Don't know what to do, as I love my Hunting and so does my little horse but if we cannot afford it, I am simply just not going to be able to go.

Anyone else have this? Or is it a minority? Thinking of trying another pack but as I don't have my own transport this is highly annoying as the pack I am talking about is my local.


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## Orangehorse (21 August 2015)

Well it has always been expensive, they have the staff to pay and upkeep of horses, kennels, transport, etc.

However, when I was hunting regularly I was on a junior membership, under 25 I think,  and I know farmers families paid a lot less and I could only think that there were a certain few in the field that couldn't possibly afford a full subscription.  You know the sort, the old boy or gal that plodded along at the back on some ancient hunter that wouldn't see 20 again, yet there were always out season in, season out.

As you mention, some hunts do a limited sub, where you only go  a certain number of times, some do a sub for the less fashionable areas, some people will "pay" you to do their gate-shutting.  Do you go to Hunt Supporters, do you make yourself useful.  I used to think that these were the sorts of people who would have a quiet word in the corner about getting a reduced subscription.


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## Nicnac (21 August 2015)

Cheaper than eventing! It is expensive but everything in life is choices.  We choose to event in the summer and only go hunting a couple of days as can't afford full sub on top of BE costs.

Our bloodhound pack is cheaper (and friendlier!) than traditional hunt so go with them.

Unfortunately the fewer subscribers the higher the prices as costs remain.


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## spacefaer (21 August 2015)

You can buy a book of tickets with most packs,  which entitle you to a limited number of days - normally about 6-8. One pack local to me offers 8 days for £380 (approx) 

If you volunteer to go gate shutting,  you'll get a free day.  

Have a word with the Hon Sec - not everybody pays full sub and they'd rather have something from you than nothing


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## spacefaer (21 August 2015)

I would add that I think that hunting is the least elitist that it has ever been.  More people from all walks of life are hunting - the field is more inclusive and most packs are more welcoming of newcomers than ever 

(There are, admittedly,  still packs who let themselves down by their cliquey-ness but they are getting fewer)


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## Goldenstar (22 August 2015)

I think hunting is less elitist than it's ever been .
It costs about the same as a smart gym membership and the costs of running a hunt are eye watering .


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## Countryman (22 August 2015)

The best way to lower subscription costs is to encourage more and more people to come out hunting.


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## marmalade76 (22 August 2015)

Countryman said:



			The best way to lower subscription costs is to encourage more and more people to come out hunting.
		
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Agreed. And agree with you, OP, I can no longer afford to hunt. It may cost the same as going to a gym, but you only need some lycra and a pair of trainers to go to a gym (not that I need to use one..)

Some hunts are still cliquey, it is quite clear to me that some folks are certainly more welcome than others (money talks) and also agree that bloodhound packs are more friendly and much better value.


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## Bernster (22 August 2015)

Well, possibly elitist in the sense of those who can afford it, as it isn't cheap. But that's true of horses generally I find!  I'm trying a more local pack this season, and they are a lot cheaper. They do 7 days a season plus autumn, which will be enough for me. I think drag hunting might be cheaper too.


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## Dizzle (22 August 2015)

Speak to the secretary, you may be able to hunt in the week for less or just do a few Saturday's each season for instance.


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## Tiddlypom (22 August 2015)

It's always been expensive to hunt. As an adult, I could either compete in the summer or hunt in the winter, not both. I chose to compete.

I know of someone like you, without transport, who could only attend meets within hacking distance. She took on other people's gateshutting duties for the meets she could get to, and they in turn paid her cap, so she effectively hunted for free. 

You need to get out and get known for this to happen, though. And also be able to mount from the ground unassisted!


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## spotty_pony2 (22 August 2015)

It is the Secretary I have spoken to who has told me I need to subscribe! I am well known within the Hunt and have hunted 6 seasons with them! Last season I hunted 10 days at a reduced cap rate and helped with gate shutting on all of them and still I am being subject to this - words fail me!  maybe time to look for a new pack!


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## spacefaer (22 August 2015)

Sounds like they don't deserve your support and it's time to find a new pack.  I suspect they are a comparatively "big name" pack who get large fields and who therefore don't value individual contributors.  Does your pack begin with a C?


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## Goldenstar (23 August 2015)

spacefaer said:



			Sounds like they don't deserve your support and it's time to find a new pack.  I suspect they are a comparatively "big name" pack who get large fields and who therefore don't value individual contributors.  Does your pack begin with a C?
		
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I agree with this .


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## ester (23 August 2015)

It's pretty mean to only allow you to do 4 days on caps! 

I go whenever they are close enough for me to hack to, which is usually about once a month and we made it out about 6 times last year (plus some cubbing). They always seem very pleased to see me and they know there is no chance of me subscribing any time soon (same with previous somerset hunt too). - Old pony/no transport/full time job meaning weekdays limited .


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## Tiddlypom (23 August 2015)

OP, it's packs like this which give hunting such a bad name. Stuff 'em, and go and find a friendlier pack to go out with.


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## Goldenstar (23 August 2015)

ester said:



			It's pretty mean to only allow you to do 4 days on caps! 

I go whenever they are close enough for me to hack to, which is usually about once a month and we made it out about 6 times last year (plus some cubbing). They always seem very pleased to see me and they know there is no chance of me subscribing any time soon (same with previous somerset hunt too). - Old pony/no transport/full time job meaning weekdays limited .
		
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Yes I think four days on caps is a little mean as well .
We do eight plus pay on the day for as often as you want to go autumn hunting after you have used your eight hunting days  I think you can just go on paying daily cap.


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## spotty_pony2 (23 August 2015)

Hi spacefaer,

Yes it does! Inbox me who you think it is!


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## spotty_pony2 (23 August 2015)

Also Autumn Hunting is the same price as a day's Hunting after 1st October! :O


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## Ditchjumper2 (23 August 2015)

We allow people to buy a book of tickets which is for 6 days. In reality if you turn up, are no trouble then you can continue to pay a day cap. We don't have gates so no chance of hunting for free to do this. However as treasurer I can say that running a hunt and balancing the books is not easy! If you "do a deal" for one person you would soon find everyone wants one.

It is not cheap but then as others have said it is about choice. Unfortunately we can't all always do want we want to.


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## ester (23 August 2015)

But surely someone turning up and paying a day cap (£40-60 for me depending on the day) is better than them not coming at all and not getting that money? (I'm no trouble  )


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## Ditchjumper2 (23 August 2015)

I agree Ester we would not turn them away!! All In was saying was IF someone was more trouble than they were worth you COULD use it as an excuse. Not saying that is the case for OP.


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## Sealine (24 August 2015)

My local hunt only allows two day caps at £70 or £100 a day depending on the meet.  You can take a 6 day subscription at £540.  The cost of a full subscription is four times my annual gym membership fee! I don't mind paying the day cap but the two day limit is the issue with me.

The local bloodhounds subscription fees are considerably cheaper and don't limit the number of day caps.  This year I might do a few day caps with different hunts as I'm on the border of three combined with a some outings with the bloodhounds.  

Trying to hunt and work full time is difficult as I have to use my annual holiday to hunt in the week. Therefore I can't risk booking a day off to hunt if it might get cancelled on the day due to ground conditions/weather. 

I envy anyone who can afford to hunt and doesn't have to work


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## ester (24 August 2015)

Most out on weekdays round here seem to have their own businesses presumably with someone else they don't mind leaving in charge! Thankfully my workplace don't mind me taking holiday last minute/cancelling when it snows and just coming in!


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## Tory27 (24 August 2015)

spotty_pony2 said:



			As title. 

Is it just me who is finding this, or is this the 'norm'? Cap and Subscription prices just seem to keep shooting up, and are pretty much unaffordable to most 'normal' horsey folk. I think this is extremely unfair, as it should be made available for all to support. How do they expect to get supporters with such high prices?! Are they trying to deter people from coming?! 


I'm not sure if it varies on what part of the country you;re based, I'm based in the South East (Oxfordshire) Which is dominated by 3-4 large very well off hunts.  My local hunt charges £130 for a Saturday meet. Way toooo expensive for me, with the added snobby upper class attitudes to follow. Im not downing all the members of the hunt as there are some very nice ones, but more often than not one gets the impression (along with others in our area) if youre not in the club you not welcome.  To me this is wrong, hunts should be grateful for all the support they get especially the tough times theyve had to go through.  Im willing to pay no question but I think it should be reasonable and fair to all.  Theres nothing worse than going out hunting only to feel shunned to the side-lines because you are not the off-spring of a Lord or Lady.  Its a shame really, as kids we used to hunt every Saturday for £10 and loved every minute of it and have some great memories. 

Certain hunts dont do themselves any favours..

The past two seasons Ive hunted with the drag hounds  a completely different group altogether and better value for money. Nice down to earth people, caring and generally grateful for your support. Subscriptions offered and preferred but if you want to turn up for the odd day here and there no problem - more than welcome.
		
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## Alec Swan (24 August 2015)

Tory27 said:





spotty_pony2 said:



			&#8230;&#8230;.., hunts should be grateful for all the support they get especially the tough times they&#8217;ve had to go through.  &#8230;&#8230;...
		
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I suspect that ALL Packs are grateful for ALL support,  and though there will be certain members of all mounted fields,  who's self opinion may not meet with the agreement of everyone,  so Hunting in general is inclusive of all.

In the '70s when my employer was master of the Heythrop,  and when they met at my place of work,  so the field included a dustman,  a factory worker,  a lowly tenant farmer,  and a guy who was black.  ALL were welcome,  and when the meet was at the front of the House,  the butler served all with stirrup cups,  willingly and regardless of their possible 'station' in life.

Perhaps there's a perceived and newly found self importance amongst some packs,  but I've yet to see it.  Those who are not catholic in their welcome,  do hunting no service,  at all.

Alec.
		
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## spotty_pony2 (24 August 2015)

I agree Tory27 - it definitely appears to be who you are as to what you are expected to pay and how you are treated! Hunts will end up losing valuable support with this attitude and I agree - it should be made fair for all to be able to enjoy - and they wonder why Hunting is perceived as being for people who are stuck-up and snobby?! There is definitely not much equality when it comes to Hunting.


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## Alec Swan (24 August 2015)

OP,  which packs have treated you in such a fashion.  PM me if you'd prefer.

Alec.


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## L&M (24 August 2015)

Our pack allows us to pay for the season monthly by direct debit - makes it far more affordable and provides the hunt with an all year round income.

Worth asking if you could do the same?

Being heavily involved with my local pack, I can totally appreciate how much it costs just to keep it breaking even, let alone be in the black!


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## Ditchjumper2 (24 August 2015)

L & M we do Direct Debit too! With smaller pcks there is also the issue of the size of the country. Whilst we would love the income from a very large  field our farmers would not tolerate it. It is not easy balancing it all.


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## Goldenstar (24 August 2015)

We can do DD as well if you want to .


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## Sherston (24 August 2015)

In the past originally hunts did not charge a subscription caps or field money, this evolved to subscriptions that were not set but a recommendation was given and gentlemen subscribed to the level at which they were happy to do and caps were then started to be taken from visitors. This was in the times when packs were run by wealthy individuals or entities. Time has since moved on to where every pack I know has a set subscription structure and price list - so equality for everyone in modern terms as opposed to the elitism of old?

Hunts now have the challenge of setting a subscription pricing on a one size fits all basis with variations built in to provide a level of options but within a structure that does not undermine other subscriptions or subscribers.

As with any commercial entity the price elasticity of demand is key to working out how to price your subscriptions and this needs to be linked to the number of mounted followers likely to be out, (very few packs can handle more than 100+ mounted out regularly as the land owners do not want that many horses over their land) and the local competition. So pricing cannot be set individually as it upsets the balance of others (more generous or more wealthy) funding someone else's hunting but most hunt secretaries will help someone genuinely in need.

Comparisons to drag packs are erroneous as they will hunt a day a week with 10 couple of hounds in kennels and no other infrastructure, similarly harriers also have a cheaper infrastructure.

Final comment - supporting a hunt should not viewed by the subscriber as a purely commercial decision, its about being part of an organisation or club and buying into the hunt as an entity, not purely a transactional relationship. That is the relationship that the hunt needs to create.


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## L&M (25 August 2015)

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Totally agree with your last comment Sherston - what really annoys me is when certain subscribers moan about wasted money if we miss a few meets due to the weather , after all hounds still need feeding.....

As for being elitist, I am a single parent and work in a shop - to be able to hunt we do not compete, go on holiday, everything comes from ebay and hair cuts are done with the kitchen scissors, so it can be done on a budget!

Wishing all a fun and safe season.


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## Clodagh (25 August 2015)

I haven't read the whole thread but larger fields are not the answer. It may be OK in Leicestershire but here in Essex more than 50 out and there is an awful mess made in our small arable fields.
Yes hunting is expensive, I used to make so many sacrifices to go and I paid a full sub even though I could have hunted on a farmers donation. There are cheaper sports, maybe try those?


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## Happy Hunter (26 August 2015)

Hello Tory27 - You're in my neck of the woods  

One of the local packs around here does differing 'Young persons' and a 'Club 25-30' around 50 or 60% off rate for those who are no longer covered by the 'family' sub - but can't shell out £1500 ish for a full Adult sub. The hunts are trying their best to encourage anyone and everyone I believe. 

Currently I have 'chosen' to compete during the summer instead. Actually when I go back to visit on foot, whilst I do miss the day out I no longer miss the people - as all the faces around here have changed anyway  = That's not to say I dont like the new faces, but I just dont know them as well!

Oh how we all wish to climb back on that 13hh hairy jumping machine of a pony with our Pony Club tie on and pay £10 for the day!
Oh and when a friend rang to tell me her new Wales pack had a sub of around £400, I said something rather unpleasant in jealousy!


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## RunToEarth (27 August 2015)

Hunting is getting far less elite IMO. 

Cottesmore are a miserable bunch and I just wouldn't entertain them, first and last days' visiting them last season as half of them seem to have some misplaced sense of superiority. Go next door to the Belvoir, they are much more friendly and willing to take a view on cap days in you are willing to help. 

I can see why longer standing members of a hunt should subscribe, there needs to be some certainty to what subs the hunt will be expecting to receive as to gauge their own budgets/needs for the season.


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## Alec Swan (27 August 2015)

RunToEarth said:



			Hunting is getting far less elite IMO. 

&#8230;&#8230;..

I can see why longer standing members of a hunt should subscribe, there needs to be some certainty to what subs the hunt will be expecting to receive as to gauge their own budgets/needs for the season.
		
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An interesting point,  and one which has probably already been addressed by some packs.  Those who are stablished or are long standing members 'are' the pack,  and to encourage others to stay,  by way of introduction,  to have heavily discounted rates for 'visitors' makes perfect sense.

I agree with the first line of your post,  though it clearly doesn't apply to all packs.  I have no experience of the Cottesmore,  but being a respected and long established pack,  does no one any good by taking an elitist approach.  Preserving the integrity of a pack is one thing,  but how we go about it is something else!

Would now be the time to question the word 'Elite'?  Hunting is expensive,  and considering the cost of maintaining Hounds,  Staff and the myriad costs attached to an established pack,  I think that the subs are quite reasonable,  considering that it isn't a profit driven business.  If Elitism is considered to apply to those who can afford to ride to Hounds,  then so be it.  If however,  elitism is to be attached to the attitude of those who are long term or established pack members,  then they do themselves,  and Hunting,  a disservice.

Alec.


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## Bernster (27 August 2015)

Tis a fair point Alex.   Elite could mean a variety of things to people.  It's fairly expensive, so it's only for those who can afford it, so it's elitest in the sense of economics.  But if what people are saying is true about being exclusive/superior and non-welcoming to new comers, then yes that's elitest in the sense of being in favour of old timers and long established subscribers.  Which seems like a v poor strategy for the long term as you need to keep refreshing the membership as the older ones, ahem, toddle off.  Although I had some fab times and met some nice folk along the way, I'm trying a new hunt this year, and from initial contact they seem like a friendly bunch.


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## JenHunt (27 August 2015)

I think hunting is less elitist that it's ever been. Yes it's expensive, but everything with horses is. Plus, in my opinion it's better value than eventing (think of cost per minute competing vs hunting and your eyes will water!)

But, there is also an element of getting what you paid for IME. I changed who I was hunting with a few years ago, partly owing to being too close to the politics of the previous pack, but also because a few days with the new pack showed me a totally different few days hunting, which suited my horse better, and I enjoyed more. I then hear similar stories from around the country about how good the days with the big packs, or those with the best country are, and how it almost makes the cost seem worthwhile... Yes the 'new' pack is more expensive, but it is my sole expenditure on horses outside of just keeping them. It comes down to choice, and mine is to spend my money on hunting and go without other things to do so. 

That said, I limit my expenditure by taking a 6 day ticket at the start of the season. If i get to Christmas and have used them all up then I'll look at the meet card, decide if I'm likely to get enough days in the 2nd half of the season to warrant upgrading to a full sub. THat's only happened once. It means that if we end up with an injury thne I've not lost out, or if it's totally rubbish weather I don't feel like I have to go just to make it worthwhile. Last season I got to Feb before running out of days, but then really really wanted to go to 2 particular meets and spoke to the Hon Sec about what to do. We came to an arrangement about one of the meets, and the final one was a testimonial anyway so that was different again (and don't worry, i raided a piggy bank to put a decent lump in for Mr Townsend). 

thanks for the reminder all... must get the zip on my boots mended this year!


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## Lucyad (27 August 2015)

Just taken the plunge and subscribed for the year, have previously paid a day cap for the maximum 6 meets per year permitted.  it is direct debit over 6 months so not too bad, and, to be honest, I could spend the same on competing twice a month and not have half as much fun.  Just hope the weather hangs out well enough for me to get my moneys worth, though of course hunt costs are the same regardless so I don't grudge if it doesn't, as without the income then they can't keep going.


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## spacefaer (27 August 2015)

We hunt with several packs, as we live on the boundaries of several hunt countries.  We buy a book of tickets for each pack and then pick appropriate meets for the horses.  Seems to work well - some of the packs let unused tickets run over into the following season as well.


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## Alec Swan (27 August 2015)

spacefaer said:



			&#8230;&#8230;.. - some of the packs let unused tickets run over into the following season as well.
		
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Now that's forward planning and thinking too.

Alec.


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## JDH01 (29 August 2015)

Even a small unfashionable hunt is expensive to run circa £60 - 90k and unless you are a fashionable pack your subs and caps are unlikely to cover that.  There will need to be substantial fundraising by the supporters club and many will be running a deficit supported by the Masters as wages have to be paid and horses and hounds fed.  We have a full sub of £575 for 2 days a week and a basic sub of £200 for as many days as subscribers want but at a higher cap - you break even on about day 12!


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## JanetGeorge (29 August 2015)

JDH01 said:



			Even a small unfashionable hunt is expensive to run circa £60 - 90k and unless you are a fashionable pack your subs and caps are unlikely to cover that.
		
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That's rather high.  The moderate sized, and unfashionable hunt my husband was joint Master of had a guarantee of £40,000 2 years ago when he retired.  He wouldn't have retired if the committee had half a brain between them - they wanted to drop the guarantee to about £30,000.  My husband could have afforded to subsidise them but he couldn't see ANY reason why he should work his butt off AND cough up a 5 figure sum just so others could hunt on the cheap.

The subscription at the time I'm not SURE of but it was no more than £400 a year - and more likely been £350 - for a 2 day week with an occasional extra day.  It had been stuck solid at £350 for at LEAST 4 years.  Committee fund-raising was pretty limited!


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## Violet (29 August 2015)

I also found that I had to pay an extra insurance premium for each days hunting as I only did a couple.


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## Herne (2 September 2015)

I find that accusations of hunts being cliquey are often unrealistic - especially as I have heard newcomers accuse Hunt A of being cliquey, not like nice Hunt B, at exactly the same time as other newcomers are accusing Hunt B of being cliquey, not like nice Hunt A.

The reality is that whatever organisation you join, you are going to be at a disadvantage, because you are trying to enter already established friendship groups. You try joining a golf club and see how many established members will embrace you with open arms and invite you straight into their playing group, or join a gym and see how many people never talk to anyone else from entering to leaving.

When joining any new organisation it is usually dependant on the new member to make the effort to introduce themselves and be approachable - not just hunting.

In hunting, you actually have an advantage, because you are forced together with people in large groups simply by being "in the field" in a way that you are not with many other clubs. Don't sit there like a lemon. Introduce yourself to people, ask questions.

But, as I always tell people, the very best way to get ahead in a hunt is to join the Hunt Supporters Club and go to the functions - and then offer to HELP. At pretty much every function, there will be a team of poor sods who have to set it all up first and then clean up and put everything away afterwards - and it's nearly always the same people. Offer to be one of those and you will become extremely popular extremely quickly...


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## Bernster (2 September 2015)

Yes, am sure there is a lot in that Herne, but sadly a few 'less welcoming' folks can make a big impression.


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## Tiddlypom (2 September 2015)

Herne said:



			When joining any new organisation it is usually dependant on the new member to make the effort to introduce themselves and be approachable - not just hunting.

In hunting, you actually have an advantage, because you are forced together with people in large groups simply by being "in the field" in a way that you are not with many other clubs. Don't sit there like a lemon. Introduce yourself to people, ask questions.
		
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I wouldn't dream of going up to strangers and introducing myself. I'm quite shy and reserved. I've nevertheless been made very welcome by the seven different packs I've hunted with, and had great days out even with the three packs that I only hunted with once.

These were all small, friendly, non stuffy packs though. Wouldn't have ever gone out with a stuck up pack.


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## Herne (3 September 2015)

Tiddlypom said:



			I wouldn't dream of going up to strangers and introducing myself.
		
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But if they feel exactly the same way and don't go up to you - a stranger to them - and make you feel welcome, then they are cliquey or stuck-up...?




			These were all small, friendly, non stuffy packs though. Wouldn't have ever gone out with a stuck up pack.
		
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Convenient how all the stuck-up people live in one area and all the non-stuffy people live in another.

Imagine how confusing it would be if there was a mixture of both in every pack...


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## Judgemental (3 September 2015)

Having picked up my Western Daily Press this morning and read yet more unedifying information about the Huntsman of the Blackmore and Sparkford Vale Hounds, that he is on bail until 11 December 2015, until his next Crown Court appearance, where he has to answer a charge of GBH.

I would hardly call that ELITIST. 

I would call it the lowest nadir that hunting has reached and shockingly badly handled.

http://www.westerndailypress.co.uk/...latest-court/story-27723411-detail/story.html


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## Tiddlypom (3 September 2015)

Herne said:



			But if they feel exactly the same way and don't go up to you - a stranger to them - and make you feel welcome, then they are cliquey or stuck-up...?



Convenient how all the stuck-up people live in one area and all the non-stuffy people live in another.

Imagine how confusing it would be if there was a mixture of both in every pack...
		
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Ah, the difference is, in the packs I've been out with, the regulars soon strike up a conversation with any unfamiliar faces. 'Hello, we haven't seen you out with us before, have we?' and before long you're welcomed into a group, all happy to chat and to point out how best to enjoy the day.

Of course there are likely to be miserable types in every pack, but one hopes that they are very much in the minority.


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## Herne (3 September 2015)

Judgemental said:



			Having picked up my Western Daily Press this morning and read yet more unedifying information about the Huntsman of the Blackmore and Sparkford Vale Hounds, that he is on bail until 11 December 2015, until his next Crown Court appearance, where he has to answer a charge of GBH.

I would hardly call that ELITIST. 

I would call it the lowest nadir that hunting has reached and shockingly badly handled.

http://www.westerndailypress.co.uk/...latest-court/story-27723411-detail/story.html

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What happened to people being innocent until proven guilty?


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## ester (3 September 2015)

and elite people are never prone to violence??

My current newish pack are always asking me questions about my life whereas I'm quite happy to have a quiet day .


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## Judgemental (3 September 2015)

Herne said:



			What happened to people being innocent until proven guilty?
		
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Ask The Western Daily Press who following hunting stories with their usual tenacious zeal.

Chuckle :wink3: Clearly there will be no 'Whitewash' in the 'Blackmore Vale'


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## Judgemental (5 September 2015)

Tiddlypom said:



			Ah, the difference is, in the packs I've been out with, the regulars soon strike up a conversation with any unfamiliar faces. 'Hello, we haven't seen you out with us before, have we?' and before long you're welcomed into a group, all happy to chat and to point out how best to enjoy the day.
		
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Tiddlypom, how right you are, a very appropriate and timely comment at the beginning of the new season.

The old adage of, "always be nice to people on the way up, you never know who you might meet on the way down" is a very wise piece of advice in Hunting Circles.

There are some, especially at this time in the Blackmore Vale, who may care to reflect accordingly.


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## JanetGeorge (5 September 2015)

Herne said:



			What happened to people being innocent until proven guilty?
		
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You may well ask!!  After all, Mark Doggrell is NOT a 'huntsman' in our understanding of the word - he is a mounted follower, nothing more.  After watching the ruddy video at LEAST 20 times, I am convinced that the only thing Doggrell was guilty of - up to the crash - was riding with his eyes shut.

From the second of the crash he behaved like a moron with absolutely no concern about the state he had caused for a female sab - which urned out to be some rather nasty injuries.  (And no, I doubt they will put her off sabbing!)

The least he could/should have done would have been to pull up and ask if there was anything he could do - instead he kicked on and paid NO attention to what was probably one of the worst PR happenings of the last 12 months - and it's far from over - the trial is rescheduled for 11th December.

I think you knew me well enough Herne to know it's a bit odd that I am suddenly knowledgeable about a hunting PR incident.  What's even odder is that I have spent a lot of time chatting to antis (including some undoubtedly extreme ones) on a largely anti-hunting FB page - and even odder (if you'd told me it would EVER happen when I was still a the CA I'd have been doubled up laughing) but I find I agree with the majority of them on everything and anything about animals, except hunting.


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## Alec Swan (6 September 2015)

JanetGeorge said:



			&#8230;&#8230;..

From the second of the crash he behaved like a moron with absolutely no concern about the state he had caused for a female sab - &#8230;&#8230;..

The least he could/should have done would have been to pull up and ask if there was anything he could do - instead he kicked on and paid NO attention to what was probably one of the worst PR happenings of the last 12 months - and it's far from over - the trial is rescheduled for 11th December.

&#8230;&#8230;.. .
		
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Wrongly perhaps,  I've formed an opinion of Doggrell and though it's without ever meeting him,  it isn't favourable.  To ride on past someone who's clearly been knocked to the ground and by our own horse,  should be unthinkable.  As you say,  it doesn't show him in the best light,  does it?  Whilst such conduct may influence the Court at the point of summing up,  it's an irrelevance,  and whether a decision is handed down of guilt,  or not,  the question is - Is he guilty of causing gbh,  by his reckless or intentional conduct?  No one in their right minds would consider that the act was intentional because the risk to both horse and rider would have been considerable had the horse gone down.  I can't remember the stride of the horse,  but would it be reckless to canter or gallop a horse whilst Hunting?

Several points occur to me;  Firstly,  the injured lady quite clearly stepped in to the path of the horse,  and though only by a short stride,  it affected a contact,  and secondly, whether it was the horse or the rider,  we'll never know,  but an attempt to avoid her was clearly taken.  Further,  what ever we may think of the man himself,  if he was going about his lawful pursuit,  and the injured lady was trespassing and attempting to disrupt the day for him and for others,  then she in part,  clearly has to bear some responsibility for her own misfortunes.  To expect others to take responsibility for our own reckless conduct,  is a bit rich.

Considering the area where the trial will be held,  I also wonder how justice can prevail.  Most have views on Hunting,  one way or another,  and it will be bound to influence a Court decision. I don't know enough of Court proceedings,  will the trial be by jury?

I'd suggest that both Doggrell and Hunting are in the spotlight,  and though I care little for the man,  his conduct following the collision will do little to persuade the 'floating-voter' that the Hunting field is filled with decent and normal people.  That's the real shame of this sorry tale.

Alec.


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## Amicus (6 September 2015)

After years of not knowing what to think about hunting/hunters I finally started going out with a proper farmers hunt a couple of years ago. Everyone was lovely friendly and very tolerant to my muddling and when I finally had the option to go out enough for a Sub to me required they arranged one low enough that I could afford it. I know all hunts are different but I wouldn't consider them elitist at all, obsessed with hounds, horses and hunting maybe but that's surely no bad thing!

As to Doggrell agree completely with JG & Alec I can't see it being intentional not stopping is pretty idiotic not to mention callous whatever else was going on.


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## Fellewell (6 September 2015)

Trevor Morse lost his life to hunt saboteurs. Mike Lane was beaten unconscious with iron bars by hunt saboteurs. For all he knew, Doggrell was being ambushed and in imminent danger. He had a split second to decide. Would you have stopped?

Standing in front of a horse is a reckless act and another example of how saboteurs are oblivious to the consequences of their actions.


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## JanetGeorge (6 September 2015)

Fellewell said:



			Trevor Morse lost his life to hunt saboteurs. Mike Lane was beaten unconscious with iron bars by hunt saboteurs. For all he knew, Doggrell was being ambushed and in imminent danger. He had a split second to decide. Would you have stopped?
		
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Trevor Morse was a bit foolish - and careless - for the best of reasons.  The pilot Bryan Griffiths had a teensy couple of excuses for what was undoubtedly careless and stupid behaviour - and I will always blame the presence of John Curtin in the 'copter for what happened (he is undoubtedly THE most evil man involved in the anti-hunt movement - there are very few people who have made the hairs on the back of my neck stand up as he did when I met him.)


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## Fellewell (7 September 2015)

JanetGeorge said:



			Trevor Morse was a bit foolish - and careless - for the best of reasons.  The pilot Bryan Griffiths had a teensy couple of excuses for what was undoubtedly careless and stupid behaviour - and I will always blame the presence of John Curtin in the 'copter for what happened (he is undoubtedly THE most evil man involved in the anti-hunt movement - there are very few people who have made the hairs on the back of my neck stand up as he did when I met him.)
		
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Crikey! Well it's made my hackles stand up just reading the name. Were you prison visiting at the time?


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## JanetGeorge (7 September 2015)

Fellewell said:



			Crikey! Well it's made my hackles stand up just reading the name. Were you prison visiting at the time?
		
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lol, no, i was in a tv studio - if I remember accurately he was sprung on me - I didn't know he'd be participating - but it WAS nearly 20 years ago.

I DID have a policy when doing LOTS of tv/radio interviews about hunting was that IF someone was from an extreme group, I declined an opportunity to be interviewed in a head to head.  That virtually ALWAYS resulted in them being dropped and me getting someone more 'aceptable' to me.  The LAST time I remember doing it was at the first Countryside March - the BNP tried to jump in and grab some of our publicity and I ensured they didnt get the chance - I think it was Radio 4.    I said: 'no way, Hose' and THAT story was dropped completely (they had plenty more in store!)  I WOULD have done a head to head with a sab - or a sab representative, but not with John Curtin given HALF a chance.  He was FAR worse than the average sab.


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## Herne (10 September 2015)

What we don't know, unless I have missed something - which is possible, I haven't been following the case - is what was happening behind the camera. 

Why was he going like a bat out of hell through the gate in the first place?

If it was just because he is reckeless then that is one thing.

If on the other hand, he was going so fast because he was already fleeing from aggression by other antis - which is by no means impossible - then not stopping under those circumstances becomes a lot more understandable.

But as I say, I am not up on the facts, so I am reserving judgement...


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## tootsietoo (23 September 2015)

Going back to the OP - the subs do seem to be going up really fast.  And yes, I could only hunt in my twenties because I lived in an area of the country where subs were very low.  But it is still reasonable value in comparison to many other equestrian sports.  I had 26 days fun out of last season's sub (with the children included!).  To have the same number of days eventing would have cost me £1000 more than hunting, and I would have had to shell out for a lot more training!

I've recently started doing some running and triathlons, and although it's cheap to start training, I am always surprised at the price of entry fees to races considering there doesn't seem to be much to them.  If you do 10 or so of those a year you're still looking at between £500-1000 on entry fees!

I think the price of hunting is reasonable for what you get (and considering what the hunts need to pay for).  And it's definitely not elitist!


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