# How to care for a litter of puppies?



## Patterdale (10 October 2013)

For those who didnt see the original thread, my 7 Patterdale puppies are now 4 weeks old  and beautiful! 
I was in the pet shop yesterday and got talking to the lady about them. She was asking if I'm finding it hard work and I said 'no not really.' She asked and when I described my routine she seemed shocked at how I'm caring for them which has got me wondering - am I wrong?? I don't know anyone else who breeds dogs so don't know how others do it, I've just tried to use common sense. 

For the first 3 weeks they lived in the horse trailer in some hay. I left the jockey door open during the day after the first week and shut it at night with the bitch inside. After 3 weeks I moved them into a round feeder in an empty cattle shed so the bitch can come and go as she pleases 24/7 (our dogs live outside free-range). At 3 weeks I put a bowl of puppy food in the feeder and top it up when it gets empty. 
So aside from doing a head count twice a day when I'm passing and worming them, I don't do anything. 

I was told I should be giving bread and milk or weetabix and milk 4 times a day and giving them a new bed each day, and that they should be totally shut away 'so the other dogs don't get them' for the first few weeks at least, and that I should shut the bitch in with them or she won't feed them. I was told I should also give them set meal times and throw away any uneaten food after 10 mins or so, and also that they shouldn't be outside because of infection risk. This seems wasteful with the food and needlessly time consuming with everything else. But am I just being cavalier about it?

They look v healthy so I'm not worried as such it just got me wondering about how other people raise a litter of puppies? And are different breeds different?

Thank you!


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## MurphysMinder (10 October 2013)

You are rearing your pups like a lot of farm dogs are reared, so I am not about to say you are wrong.  However, most breeders would do things differently .  At 4 weeks my pups would be on 3 or 4 feeds a day, and yes any uneaten food would be taken away.   However bread and milk is the last thing they should be having, you are right to give them puppy food.They would be loose with me in the house a lot, getting used to various household noises, tv, hoover, washing machine etc. They would have had their nails clipped a couple of times to stop them scratching their mum when feeding.   I would be happy to take them outside and would do this a lot, not a problem with my own dogs being about but wouldn't allow any other dogs on the premises.   And lastly,  I would be wasting hours playing with them,  puppies are the biggest time wasters ever, so yes I do find having a litter very hard work and time consuming, but love it.


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## satinbaze (10 October 2013)

I spend a lot of time with my puppies but this is mostly because I enjoy it. I give each puppy it's own food bowl as this reduces the risk of food aggression as adult dogs and I would remove uneaten  food but then my lot never leave food anyway. I play with and handle the pups a lot but this all depends on the bitch being happy with your presence I also use a sounds tape to familiarise the pips with day yo day sounds such as vacuum cleaners, police sirens, children crying etc. it all depends on the environment the pups will be going to. If they are all going to be outside working dogs then you won't need to do a lot more, but if they are going to b house pets then I suggest you need to start to prepare them for such an environment.
The blue cross used to produce a really good early socialisation guide so it may be worth checking their website. 
Good luck and enjoy the pups, it doesn't last long


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## Clodagh (10 October 2013)

I would just worry they won't be very well socialised, like MM says they won't have been in a house, heard any sudden noises, met different people, seen life at all. When we got out pup although she lived outside they had a lot of time spent with them and were well handled. They had been in a play pen on the lawn a lot so had met/seen cyclists, chickens, cars and so on.


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## Patterdale (10 October 2013)

Oh I do play with them lots!! But I don't consider that 'work'  

Reading back my OP looks like I just abandon the poor things, I don't! There's usually someone in there having a scive, covered in puppies  it's just as far as the actual 'work' goes.....I don't feel like I do much. 

Out if interest, why should you take away uneaten food rather than feed adlib? And what puppy food do you feed? They're having John Burns as they do a small bite one but the others have CSJ That'll Do!
I fed the sheepdog pups weetabix and milk as that's what I was recommended by someone I thought knew their stuff, but after realising it was wrong changed it. They seemed ok though.


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## Dry Rot (10 October 2013)

It sounds to me as if you are doing everything right (except the bit about listening to fools!) . The only thing I would worry about is temperature. Puppies need to be kept warm which is why they have bare bellies to absorb heat from their siblings and mother. If they can't do that, they can become chilled which I suspect is the root of many evils.

The farmer I spent my student days with was a hunt terrierman and his terriers always whelped deep inside a stack of small hay bales in the barn. We never even saw them until they followed the bitch out! I think that would be the ideal set up. My own dogs were not warm enough in purpose built whelping boxes barely large enough for the bitch to stretch out in at full length but lined on all six sides with 50mm of polystyrene sandwiched between marine ply with a double flap door. I solved that problem by cutting a hole in the roof and suspending a heat lamp outside (but shining through the hole) and monitoring the temperature carefully. Other than providing the ideal environmental conditions, I'd leave strictly alone until at least 14 days and by four weeks I still wouldn't know numbers or sexes! I don't believe in meddling.

Young pups can eat meat at a surprisingly young age. They will chew away at a solid chunk or lap up raw minced meat. I feed nothing else. I gave up feeding anything at all liquid as pups will get their noses in it and can inhale fluids which cannot be a good thing. The bitch will clear up any food left over. I always try to provide food 24/7 when they are a bit older but probably remove the bitch for a few hours to give her peace, or at least provide some means of escape.

Yes, breeds are different. Many of the pet/show breeds are fussed over and pampered and only survive because of that. Yours, as mine, are working dogs and tough. Responsible breeders want them to stay that way. So leave the cotton wool to others. You know all this anyway and you know by listening to the sounds of a litter whether they need attention without prodding and poking them every five minutes! 

Just a few thoughts from an extremist who hates what they are doing to working breeds. Dons asbestos suit and retires....

Edited to say that socialisation in dogs mostly takes place between five and eight weeks, so any interfering before that is just an excuse. No harm in it and good fun, but not necessary.


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## vieshot (10 October 2013)

All three of my dogs have come from environments where they have lived outside as puppies, one of which had had very little handling. They have all adjusted just fine to everyday life, although the unhandled one is and I dare say always will be, quite timid in new situations.


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## CorvusCorax (10 October 2013)

As others, if they are going into pet homes I would want them used to household noises at some stage. The rest does sound a bit OTT.

You said yourself you wanted them to go to pet homes 

My working dog was raised in a house with a young baby, other animals around etc, but it hasn't impacted on his ability to work.


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## s4sugar (10 October 2013)

CaveCanem said:



			As others, if they are going into pet homes I would want them used to household noises at some stage. The rest does sound a bit OTT.

You said yourself you wanted them to go to pet homes 

My working dog was raised in a house with a young baby, other animals around etc, but it hasn't impacted on his ability to work.
		
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Agree with this.
 Spacing feeds allows intake to be monitored and also gives the pups motivation. 
I would be very concerned about pups destined for pet homes not being given the opportunity to feel different surfaces nor having clear demarcation between bed, food & poo areas. IME shed reared puppies ( which your's are for want of a better term) take more time to housetrain than those given every chance to move away from bed to empty themselves. 
I do hope you have a radio playing? A household sounds recording would be even better.


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## Aru (10 October 2013)

Sounds like yours are been reared as outdoors farm dogs not as pups destined for the indoors pet market tbh. ..to make life easier and less scary for them socialisation to normal indoor noises.,sights, surfaces and sounds from around 4 to 5 weeks would be a good idea. ..so a playpen in the house or some thing along those lines might be a good idea. 
also basic house training is much essier of the pups begin to learn young to differences between sleeping wating playing and pooping  spots. 


from 4 weeks or so most litters should be starting on solids 3 to 4 times a day. .puppy foods softened is the way to go rather than the old fashioned milk and weetabix as pups can struggle with digesting the latter. 

being reared away from people can have them missing out on normal human interactions and in some cases outdoor pups can be that bit more timid and wary of new experiences within a household...like the washing machine going off..struggling and hating walking on lino or wood floors etc..finding children screaming and playing a bit much..whereas if the are exposed and socialised to all of theses experiences young most are completely unfazed.....


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## Ditchjumper2 (11 October 2013)

My singleton pup went to his new home last Friday. He was whelped in the kitchen and lived there in his basket, before went made a run out of shavings bales so mum could jump in and out and he could stay out when we were not there. By the time he went to his new home he was sleeping alone in a cage and was more or less house trained.

He was used to washing machine, cars, horses, hoovers and was a real cracker. I cried when he went!!!


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## springtime1331 (11 October 2013)

My best friend breeds labs and by 4 weeks they would be paper trained and used to lots of household noises. They have lots of toys for stimulation and would be going out in the garden regularly and mixing with cats and her other dogs. She has several breeding bitches and all puppies are born and reared in the house. They are all extremely well adjusted and transition to a new home easily because of the effort she puts in. I have a patterdale and knowing they can be fiesty and a bit aggro having lots of socialisation at a young age would be important to me.


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## Clodagh (11 October 2013)

I think it is like breeding anything else - from horses to humans! The more effort and inconvenience when they are young the better they are set up for the future.


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## Crugeran Celt (11 October 2013)

I have never bred from my dogs but both springers I now have were raised the same as your pups Patterdale, outside with little interference and not really 'handled' until they were almost ready to wean and rehome. They are both loving and settled dogs with no issues at all so can't really see any harm in what you are doing. Saying that a friend of mine has just had a litter of 9 pups and they have been kept in the house with loads of interaction from people, children and my dogs as well as their mum from the day they were born and again they well socialised, happy puppies so I am sure there are many right ways of doing it.


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## milo'n'molly (11 October 2013)

Whilst it isn't the way I would do it my dog was raised in a shed, quite literally. He settled into being a pet very easily when he came home at 6 weeks


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## Bobster1234 (11 October 2013)

I would just say give them set food times and then have a time for mum to go in and then have a time for her to come out and have a rest from them.


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## Dry Rot (11 October 2013)

Lots and lots of research has been done into the best way of rearing puppies by the Guide Dogs for the Blind, Seeing Eye Dogs of the USA, etc. 

These dogs need to be especially well socialised and stable. They are not introduced to a normal family environment until 6 - 7 weeks of age which has been found to be the best age. So there you go!

http://www.guidedogs.org.uk/support...an-do-to-volunteer/puppywalking/#.UlhsZdKTiSo

http://www.seeingeye.org/raise/default.aspx?M_ID=425


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## MurphysMinder (12 October 2013)

Yes they do go to puppy walkers at 6-7 weeks but the socialisation starts before then.   When they place their brood bitches with people they ask that puppies are born " Ideally in your home, so that the puppies can be well socialised".  (That is the Guide Dogs for the Blind, no experience of Seeing Eye Dogs.)


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## Dry Rot (12 October 2013)

MurphysMinder said:



			Yes they do go to puppy walkers at 6-7 weeks but the socialisation starts before then.   When they place their brood bitches with people they ask that puppies are born " Ideally in your home, so that the puppies can be well socialised".  (That is the Guide Dogs for the Blind, no experience of Seeing Eye Dogs.)
		
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Just found this site. Can't find any information on homing a brood bitch but they do seem to breed an awful lot of puppies "in house" and stress "At our centre we aim to create a calm and ordered environment for all who visit and work here - and especially for our dogs. We hope you will do all you can to help us achieve this", so presumably no washing machines or screaming kids?

http://www.guidedogs.org.uk/aboutus/national-breeding-centre/#.UlkBcNKTiSo


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## Sandstone1 (12 October 2013)

Guide dog pups live with the brood bitch holder til 6 weeks before going to the puppy walker. They see all normal household things from day one.


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## twiggy2 (12 October 2013)

Dry Rot said:



			Just found this site. Can't find any information on homing a brood bitch but they do seem to breed an awful lot of puppies "in house" and stress "At our centre we aim to create a calm and ordered environment for all who visit and work here - and especially for our dogs. We hope you will do all you can to help us achieve this", so presumably no washing machines or screaming kids?

http://www.guidedogs.org.uk/aboutus/national-breeding-centre/#.UlkBcNKTiSo

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it states children must be supervised.

and I love the idea that a washing machine is not calm and orderly.

my understanding is that the pups are introduced to as many things as possible that they would encounter in a normal household but in a calm manner. a friend of mine puppy walked for GD and when pup arrived she was cool calm and collected and nothing in the house phased her as she had seen it all before.

I have a few friends that breed dogs (grump) outside but all of the litters will spend time in the house everyday from 10-14 days old as a whole litter and individually too so that if they go on to live inside the house with new owners they cope better with the move. the only exception to that is one friend who breeds a litter of cheasapeake bay retrievers every 3rd year (so he can replace his own working dogs) they do not ever come in the house and he only homes them to working homes where they will be kept outdoors as he does not believe his lines make good house dogs


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## Patterdale (12 October 2013)

Thanks for all the replies 

Just to reiterate - I am not just ignoring them! It's just that, as work goes, checking they're all present and topping the food and water up is all I do. 
They do get played with lots now, and as far as socialisation goes no they won't know about washing machines but they're totally fine with tractors, cars, loud people coming and going and most animals. They also, importantly know how to behave with other dogs, having grown up in a pack mentality. 

I totally get what people are saying about them being in a house to be socialised, and while its probably another good way of doing it, I don't feel that my way is a bad way. 
Before I banned dogs from the house I had 2 collies and one patt (the mother) who had been reared outside and made the transition to house dog very smoothly at 7 weeks, so while some would probably like dogs reared in the house I don't think it makes a huge amount of difference, particularly if they are very good around people and general farm noises. 

I don't know how you would paper train puppies by 4 weeks though!??? Or why, tbh? 
Ididnt interfere with mine much at all apart from worming for the first almost 3 weeks. I think it would have stressed the bitch. 

She doesn't sleep with them any more though, and does t want to, so I'd hate to think she was ever shut in with them and couldn't get away. 

So I think there are many different 'right' ways 
(But I still prefer mine as I think it's more natural )


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## Patterdale (12 October 2013)

twiggy2 said:



			I have a few friends that breed dogs (grump) outside but all of the litters will spend time in the house everyday from 10-14 days old as a whole litter and individually too
		
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See I just wouldn't dream of doing this. The bitch had them all in a nice nest and was understandably protective over them. I wouldn't have even contemplated stressing her out by taking them all into the house, or worse, individually.


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## Dry Rot (12 October 2013)

Elliesmemory1 said:



			Guide dog pups live with the brood bitch holder til 6 weeks before going to the puppy walker. They see all normal household things from day one.
		
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I don't think you can have looked at the link I quoted:

http://www.guidedogs.org.uk/aboutus/.../#.UlkBcNKTiSo

_Quote: Our new National Breeding Centre will allow us to increase our capacity to breed puppies from 1,100 to 1,500 a year. In addition it provides modern facilities that will enhance dog and staff welfare and provide much better facilities for our volunteers. The new centre also allows us to cater for large groups of visitors and show them where life begins for a guide dog and how these life changing animals are bred._

Can't see what you are quoting nor any reference to brood bitch holders. Can you supply a link or reference please as this intrigues me?

Incidentally, my source on socialisation is Scott & Fuller, "Dog Behaviour - the Genetic Basis". You'll find "socialization" in the index. 

Patterdale, you'll do just fine!


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## MurphysMinder (12 October 2013)

Dry rot , the page referring to brood bitch holders is on the link you first posted.


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## SusieT (12 October 2013)

Yours are going to be farm dogs that you then want to be 'pets' without any acclimitisation. Farm machinery is different to a tv a couple of inches away. Dont' be surprised if they become difficult to home without any formal socialisation to become pets.


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## Patterdale (12 October 2013)

SusieT said:



			Yours are going to be farm dogs that you then want to be 'pets' without any acclimitisation. Farm machinery is different to a tv a couple of inches away. Dont' be surprised if they become difficult to home without any formal socialisation to become pets.
		
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Like I say - based on my own experience (and that of friends) I don't think most pups struggle going to live in a house at 7 weeks old. Perhaps 7 MONTHS would be a problem, or perhaps I'd have a problem if they weren't used to people at all, but they are. 
They're very friendly, sociable happy little pups who haven't been fazed by any new sights or sounds so far, so hopefully a TV if and when they do meet one shouldn't cause them to combust 

I think if you are not used to keeping dogs in this way you may feel that it's poles apart from anything else, but it's really not. They are used to being handled by lots of different people and good with/respectful of other dogs. They see 'new' things all the time, and although they may not have sat next to a washing machine the new things that they HAVE seen have been no problem whatsoever. 

Like I've said - there are many 'right' ways of doing something. But to suggest that my pups will be no good for pet homes because they were born outside is a little unfair IMO.


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## Spring Feather (12 October 2013)

Patterdale, every single puppy I've ever bought in my life was born outside on a farm.  There were times in my life that our dogs lived free-range in our houses but I haven't had dogs living inside my houses for about 15 years now, although they do have beds in a large room just off our kitchen (with a 'fenced' half stable door) so I see and chat to them if I'm in the kitchen and they're in the dog room.  When I bought all of my farm-raised puppies who had full access to my houses they acclimatised with absolutely no problems at all.  All of them were pretty much housetrained as they knew not to soil their straw beds at their birth farms and instead go on the grassy area outside the stable/barn etc.

My own litters are born in the house and after a few days moved back out to a puppy pen area in the dog room next to my kitchen.  The pen is not high so the mother can jump in and out as she pleases.  The dog room has a dog flap and my dogs have 24/7 access to outside and they're free to go where they choose on the farm through the day.  All my other dogs interact initially with the puppies through the pen and then once the puppies are mobile enough they can run around in the dog room and outside with the big dogs.  My collie pups left here at around 6/7 weeks and all (apart from the one we kept) live in houses as pet dogs.  They were all pretty much house trained with just the very odd accident apparently.  The pup we kept never had any mishaps in the dog room as she knew how to get out the dog flap (as did the others prior to them leaving for their homes).

I did used to bring the puppies in for a little while in the evenings once they were playing and rolling around, but only for about an hour a night.  They also were out on the farm for hours every day so used to tractors and machinery etc.  I love having puppies around and I also don't see it as work, it's fun to me.

My puppies are fed 5 or 6 times daily and yes I do take the bowls away when they're done but only because there was little left and I washed out the bowls, and had I left them in there the puppies would have been covered in gooey puppy food.  I can't see any problem with leaving the bowls in there though; it's pretty easy to spot a puppy who isn't doing as well as the others and you just make sure you get it eating well to pick up the weight again.

Your pups will be just fine I'm sure :smile3:


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## CorvusCorax (12 October 2013)

OT but a lot of dogs destined to be guide dogs are bred from generations of dogs with very, very calm, non-reactive characters, so genetics as well as socialisation comes into play. Plus the training they receive is very intensive - one mistake can mean big trouble for the handler so it has to be very clear.
All part of a combination!


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## Sandstone1 (14 October 2013)

Dry Rot said:



			I don't think you can have looked at the link I quoted:

http://www.guidedogs.org.uk/aboutus/.../#.UlkBcNKTiSo

_Quote: Our new National Breeding Centre will allow us to increase our capacity to breed puppies from 1,100 to 1,500 a year. In addition it provides modern facilities that will enhance dog and staff welfare and provide much better facilities for our volunteers. The new centre also allows us to cater for large groups of visitors and show them where life begins for a guide dog and how these life changing animals are bred._

Can't see what you are quoting nor any reference to brood bitch holders. Can you supply a link or reference please as this intrigues me?

Incidentally, my source on socialisation is Scott & Fuller, "Dog Behaviour - the Genetic Basis". You'll find "socialization" in the index. 

Patterdale, you'll do just fine!

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I didnt look at the link, I know about guide dogs because I work there!  Some pups are born at the centre but most are born in the brood bitch holders home.  the pups are  used to every day sights and sounds from day one


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## misst (14 October 2013)

I got my JRT from a lady who never had them in the house. They were born and raised in a kennel and run. Her children played with them in the run but the dogs never ever went in the house. I got her at 10 weeks. She never had a problem adapting to being a house dog and is the laziest, most spoiled lap dog when at home. She was dead easy to house train and never ever had problems socialising. She is a lousey ratter though!


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## EAST KENT (16 October 2013)

Sorry but no,I would not be buying a puppy reared in a horse trailer,and then an empty round bale feeder!Talk about "minimal care" ,well this is it really,not much better than a puppy farm.Some of my litters are indeed outside,but in proper accommadation that can be cleaned properly,fed several times a day on raw food.Just bunging in some pellets?Not good enough.So,of course,you clip their toe nails weekly,check for fleas and lice?You KNOW absolutely if any of them are even slightly loose?Not shocked often,but I am afraid this does shock me,foxhounds get far better attention in hunt kennels.
Please leave breeding a litter to someone a bit more savvy with a litter`s needs.


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## Sandstone1 (16 October 2013)

I have to say that if this was a planned litter I would have thought that more time and effort should have gone in to finding out more about raising a litter well beforehand not after pups are already here.  I too would not buy a puppy as a pet that was brought up this way im afraid.


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## Patterdale (16 October 2013)

EAST KENT said:



			Sorry but no,I would not be buying a puppy reared in a horse trailer,and then an empty round bale feeder!Talk about "minimal care" ,well this is it really,not much better than a puppy farm.Some of my litters are indeed outside,but in proper accommadation that can be cleaned properly,fed several times a day on raw food.Just bunging in some pellets?Not good enough.So,of course,you clip their toe nails weekly,check for fleas and lice?You KNOW absolutely if any of them are even slightly loose?Not shocked often,but I am afraid this does shock me,foxhounds get far better attention in hunt kennels.
Please leave breeding a litter to someone a bit more savvy with a litter`s needs.
		
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Wow.
Different opinions I can take but comparing me to a puppy farm!??
FYI I put a LOT of thought into this litter. You think they're badly off because they lived in the horse trailer (rubber lined, warm, well ventilated, can be moved right next to the house) and then in a round feeder (secure, well ventilated, easy access for bitch to come in or out, easily cleaned/moved)!???? Tell me, would they have been better off had I spent a grand on a fancy branded puppy run? 
I think not!

You've clearly not read the rest of the thread or you would have seen that no, I do NOT just 'bung in a few pellets.' 
I spend ages playing with them every day, I just do not consider this to be 'work.' 
So yes, I do know each puppy individually. They are all very happy, sociable little things. 

I found your post incredibly insulting. I have always respected your opinion in here but I feel most of the things you've said and accused me of we're totally uncalled for and unfounded. 

Luckily the people who have so far reserved pups are more than happy with their welfare and upbringing. In fact 2 have commented that it is lovely to see a litter raised in such a natural manner with an obviously happy and comfortable mother. I have raised healthy, happy and well socialised pups, and although it may not have been achieved using a brand new puppy run and round the clock pedicures I don't think I've done badly at all.


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## Spring Feather (16 October 2013)

EAST KENT said:



			Sorry but no,I would not be buying a puppy reared in a horse trailer,and then an empty round bale feeder!
		
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Just to play devil's advocate here; what in your opinion is the difference between ^^ and a kennel with a run, like you see at so many commercial breeders/working dogs homes?  I haven't highlighted the rest of your post as you can't possibly know what sort of care Patterdale's puppies are getting.


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## Patterdale (16 October 2013)

There's no difference, it's ridiculous. 

And why, EASTKENT, do you seem to be vilifying me for feeding them top quality dry food? YOU may prefer to feed raw meat, which is fine. But I am feeding dry food - as many, MANY breeders do.


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## EAST KENT (17 October 2013)

If any Environmental Health Officer saw the conditions described he would freak,purely on the lack of cleanliness system or heating in place.I actually think everybody breeding a litter should have to adhere to minmal care and hygeine,being born and reared should not be a test to see if the puppy is "tough and natural" enough to make it.Funny thing is..if you were indeed a "puppy farmer" housing many litters in exactly the same way it would be on the telly.Dry food? Oh the lazy way,not for us old school do it properly breeders I`m afraid.  My mentor`s would have an absolute fit! There are loads of litters brought up your way,but these days it ain`t good enough.


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## s4sugar (17 October 2013)

There is actually a big difference between a well constructed kennel & run and the improvised conditions described here.  BTW you mention other litters -do you have a breeders licence?


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## Amymay (17 October 2013)

Patterdale's puppies have been born and thus far brought up in a farm environment - this is perfectably acceptable, and by no means sub standard care.  They have been safe, warm, dry and well cared for from day 1.  They have not received minimal care. And have not merely been left to get on with it.

S4ugar - wind your nasty little neck in.


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## Patterdale (17 October 2013)

EAST KENT said:



			If any Environmental Health Officer saw the conditions described he would freak,purely on the lack of cleanliness system or heating in place.I actually think everybody breeding a litter should have to adhere to minmal care and hygeine,being born and reared should not be a test to see if the puppy is "tough and natural" enough to make it.Funny thing is..if you were indeed a "puppy farmer" housing many litters in exactly the same way it would be on the telly.Dry food? Oh the lazy way,not for us old school do it properly breeders I`m afraid.  My mentor`s would have an absolute fit! There are loads of litters brought up your way,but these days it ain`t good enough.
		
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Oh I'm sorry, I didn't realise you'd inspected my premises??
Oh that's right - you haven't. 

Exactly what kind of 'heating arrangements' would you like me to have for terrier puppies born at the end of summer, where its sunny and 17degrees here as I type??

And since when is a hay bed 'unclean'!?

I don't even know why I'm trying to justify myself here.......thankfully there are plenty of practical, sensible, knowledgeable and well mannered posters on here to make up for the ones here quoted.


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## Spring Feather (17 October 2013)

s4sugar said:



			There is actually a big difference between a well constructed kennel & run and the improvised conditions described here.
		
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And again to play devil's advocate, S4ugar and East Kent;  what, specifically, are those differences?  Is a horse trailer not well constructed?  Or a bale feeder inside a barn in any way dangerous or detrimental in the raising of puppies?  Is PDs bedding not cleaned out in the same fashion?  Is the trailer not able to be disinfected as and when necessary?  Is it that cold in England during summer to need to put heating in the containment area where puppies are living?  Dry food?  Plenty of breeders use good quality dry food so that's just a plain silly argument.  

I've already said how I raise puppies and that way works for me, but I'm not so dogmatic as to believe the way I raise mine should be everyone's way of doing it.


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## Dry Rot (17 October 2013)

EAST KENT said:



			If any Environmental Health Officer saw the conditions described he would freak,purely on the lack of cleanliness system or heating in place.I actually think everybody breeding a litter should have to adhere to minmal care and hygeine,being born and reared should not be a test to see if the puppy is "tough and natural" enough to make it.Funny thing is..if you were indeed a "puppy farmer" housing many litters in exactly the same way it would be on the telly.Dry food? Oh the lazy way,not for us old school do it properly breeders I`m afraid.  My mentor`s would have an absolute fit! There are loads of litters brought up your way,but these days it ain`t good enough.
		
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If you are so well qualified to give advice, why do you need mentoring?

Just curious.


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## Dobiegirl (17 October 2013)

Dry Rot said:



			If you are so well qualified to give advice, why do you need mentoring?

Just curious.
		
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I think the clue is in the word would which to me implies past tense but im sure EK will be along to confirm it.

Ive never bred a litter of puppies but did think about it having a show winning well bred DNA tested rare vulnerable breed bitch, I decided not to, too many unwanted dogs in rescue etc plus we love her so much we couldnt bear the thought of losing her. I would have had the whelping pen sorted well in advance and would have had a breeding friend on standby.  I wouldnt have bred Patterdales either, I see too many in rescue and they are a dog very difficult to rehome, temperment being the biggest reason.


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## Clodagh (17 October 2013)

I do think getting overexcited because the pups are being fed dry food is a bit OTT! I would much prefer any puppy I got to be fed on it, I am not faffing about with raw when I have it at home so would rather it ate dry already. It is perfectly acceptable to feed dogs whatever you choose, as long as it is a decent product.

I too have never bred a litter and never will but I think comparing Patterdale to a puppy farmer is offensive and unnecessary.


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## s4sugar (17 October 2013)

Clodagh said:



			I do think getting overexcited because the pups are being fed dry food is a bit OTT! I would much prefer any puppy I got to be fed on it, I am not faffing about with raw when I have it at home so would rather it ate dry already. It is perfectly acceptable to feed dogs whatever you choose, as long as it is a decent product.

I too have never bred a litter and never will but I think comparing Patterdale to a puppy farmer is offensive and unnecessary.
		
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But Patterdale, by her own admission, IS a puppy farmer - these pups have been bred purely to sell as pets.

Dry food is not the problem, how it is being fed is - just as these puppies are not getting the early experiences you would expect pups destined to go as pets to have. The situation is very similar to the barns full of dogs being bred for the pet trade on Welsh farms but on a smaller scale.


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## Amymay (17 October 2013)

Patterdale is not a puppy farmer.

And you can't compare one litter of puppies with barns full of puppies in any part of the country.

S4sugar, you are vile.


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## Patterdale (17 October 2013)

amymay said:



			Patterdale is not a puppy farmer.

And you can't compare one litter of puppies with barns full of puppies in any part of the country.

S4sugar, you are vile.
		
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Can't say much more than this really!

But wait - must get back to my puppy farming. Perhaps ill go and hurl insults at some kittens soon, before pelting them with harmful dry food. 
If time permits. 

:rolleyes3:


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## s4sugar (17 October 2013)

amymay said:



			Patterdale is not a puppy farmer.

And you can't compare one litter of puppies with barns full of puppies in any part of the country.

S4sugar, you are vile.
		
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No, not vile - honest & sick of people making excuses for poor breeding practices. The only difference is scale -one litter or many but raised the same way with the same intent.
I just wonder why you are being so defensive?


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## Amymay (17 October 2013)

s4sugar said:



			I just wonder why you are being so defensive?
		
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Simply because you have made assumptions that are way off base. Have insulted a very honest poster.
 And cast wild aspersions upon my friend.


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## Dobiegirl (17 October 2013)

amymay said:



			Simply because you have made assumptions that are way off base. Have insulted a very honest poster.
 And cast wild aspersions upon my friend.
		
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So, unbiased then.


http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/foru...f-breeding-raising-a-litter&highlight=vizslak


Perhaps a read of the above of a responsible bred litter wouldnt go amiss, notice there is no mention of hay bales.


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## EAST KENT (17 October 2013)

Obviously Mentored was in the past tense..some forty years ago now,by the top breeders in my breed for some forty years.Eva Weatherill was a pre-war nursing sister,that should give you a clue to her hygeine standards,she was my mentor. Hay/straw is dirty stuff,a trailer or bale feeder is never going to be as clean as it should for a litter of puppies. The puppies may well survive,but I do not believe a growing puppy should be challenged to actually survive,they deserve better.Truly,I would like every litter to be born and reared under licence in proper facilities,there is no defence for substandard litters reared entirely for sale.For you info,they should have had toenails trimmed weekly..so your bitch does`nt get scratched to bits,they should have been wormed from 14 days and then fortnightly,mother done at the same time.A decent box indoors,newspapers with a clean vet bed on top..that is normal practice.Hay??I don`t think so.


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## Clodagh (17 October 2013)

I must say I don't raise chicks on hay or straw, which are the only things I breed, as it is damp and hard to keep properly clean, so I give you that point. I have already said I think they are missing out on stuff living out all the time and I even give you that Patterdale is a farmer and has puppies...


BUT surely all puppies are bred for profit? Except the very, very few bred because the owner wants a pup from their bitch. The other 99% are bred for profit.


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## Dry Rot (17 October 2013)

All a puppy wants is a warm bed and a belly full of good food.

It does not matter whether that is in the middle of a large bale of hay in a feeder or in an enlarged rabbit hole! These days, there are plenty of properly formulated puppy feeds and I have no doubt there are some good dry ones.

I don't know where this idea came from that dogs are, by human standards, always clinically clean. They are not. They are programmed by thousands of years of natural selection to eat things which are decomposing. They are naturally opportunist feeders. If it is not decomposing, they'll bury it until it is, then dig it up and eat it with relish.

How do I know this? Because I have twenty years _more_ experience of dogs than East Kent claims to have -- and on a large scale too. No, not puppy farming, but hounds first, then a long career mostly with gundogs. And you know what? All those gundogs were reared outside and absolutely relished the sound of a gunshot! Never tried them with a washing machine because they were outside dogs, but I'm sure they would have coped with that too.

Just love the posts that read "I've never bred a litter but...." (Insert here "I'm an expert"). I wouldn't sell a pup to you lot or you'd soon have it ruined and suited to a role in "Pedigree Dogs Exposed". Working dogs are incredibly tough and don't need pampering and fawning over, just a warm bed and a full belly....and an appreciative owner, which I am. I hate what show people are doing to our working dogs.


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## Clodagh (17 October 2013)

Dry Rot said:



			All a puppy wants is a warm bed and a belly full of good food.

It does not matter whether that is in the middle of a large bale of hay in a feeder or in an enlarged rabbit hole! These days, there are plenty of properly formulated puppy feeds and I have no doubt there are some good dry ones.

I don't know where this idea came from that dogs are, by human standards, always clinically clean. They are not. They are programmed by thousands of years of natural selection to eat things which are decomposing. They are naturally opportunist feeders. If it is not decomposing, they'll bury it until it is, then dig it up and eat it with relish.

How do I know this? Because I have twenty years _more_ experience of dogs than East Kent claims to have -- and on a large scale too. No, not puppy farming, but hounds first, then a long career mostly with gundogs. And you know what? All those gundogs were reared outside and absolutely relished the sound of a gunshot! Never tried them with a washing machine because they were outside dogs, but I'm sure they would have coped with that too.

Just love the posts that read "I've never bred a litter but...." (Insert here "I'm an expert"). I wouldn't sell a pup to you lot or you'd soon have it ruined and suited to a role in "Pedigree Dogs Exposed". Working dogs are incredibly tough and don't need pampering and fawning over, just a warm bed and a full belly....and an appreciative owner, which I am. I hate what show people are doing to our working dogs.
		
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I do agree with you but...Patterdale wants her pups to go to pet homes, not working.


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## Dry Rot (17 October 2013)

Clodagh said:



			I do agree with you but...Patterdale wants her pups to go to pet homes, not working.
		
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They are hers so, unless the law of property has changed, she is free to sell them to whoever she wishes. So what?

I've bred a few litters of Fell terriers and some went as pets, one to a pair of old ladies with a family cat. Yes, I warned them! They took great delight in reporting back a year later to tell me what a great success the pup was (from a long line of fox killers, I might add!) and that the cat was still alive and well and the dog and cat were the best of friends! (No mention of washing machines though).

Puppies, as I attempted to explain in a previous post, are best socialised between the ages of 6 and 8 weeks. But then the "experts" emerged and I was shouted down. But what do I know?

I usually keep out of these discussions but when innocent people get so rudely flamed, as the OP has been, enough is enough.


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## Patterdale (17 October 2013)

Thank you Dry Rot, and amymay. 
As experienced and practical people I greatly value and respect your opinions, so it means a lot.


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## Spring Feather (17 October 2013)

Clodagh said:



			I do agree with you but...Patterdale wants her pups to go to pet homes, not working.
		
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What does it matter though?  Puppies just take what comes their way and they'll fit in with whatever their home life is, and if it changes, they'll still fit in easily.  That's why they are such good companion animals because they are adept at dealing with change.

As to where to birth and raise puppies.  Every year a breeding pair of coyotes whelp in my woods.  In a hole.  I don't think they read your manual East Kent ...


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## Dobiegirl (17 October 2013)

Patterdale said:



			Thank you Dry Rot, and amymay. 
As experienced and practical people I greatly value and respect your opinions, so it means a lot.
		
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I grant you Dry rot has experience but Amymay dosnt even own a dog lol


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## Patterdale (17 October 2013)

Dobiegirl said:



			I grant you Dry rot has experience but Amymay dosnt even own a dog lol
		
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That doesn't stop her from having a practical and sensible outlook on life, which I admire and respect.


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## Patterdale (17 October 2013)

Spring Feather said:



			As to where to birth and raise puppies.  Every year a breeding pair of coyotes whelp in my woods.  In a hole.  I don't think they read your manual East Kent ...
		
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## Dobiegirl (17 October 2013)

Spring Feather said:



			As to where to birth and raise puppies.  Every year a breeding pair of coyotes whelp in my woods.  In a hole.  I don't think they read your manual East Kent ...
		
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In the third world women give birth while working in the field, I dont suppose if you had children you would choose to have them this way.


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## Spring Feather (17 October 2013)

Dobiegirl said:



			In the third world women give birth while working in the field, I dont suppose if you had children you would choose to have them this way.
		
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Meh wouldn't bother me to be honest.


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## ester (17 October 2013)

not quite sure how much the domestic dog is programmed by thousands of years of natural selection anymore... and I thought Amymay had a bichon??


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## Patterdale (17 October 2013)

Oh dear, my poor little doggies seem to have moved from a puppy farm to the third world.......I dread to think where they'll be when I look at this tomorrow...!


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## Vizslak (17 October 2013)

Spring Feather said:



			As to where to birth and raise puppies.  Every year a breeding pair of coyotes whelp in my woods.  In a hole.  I don't think they read your manual East Kent ...
		
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Yes but they will loose a few to nature before they hit maturity and moreover they won't be off to live in a house when they hit 8 weeks

As for the rest of this thread *whistles nonchalantly and walks away whilst pretending not to have seen*


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## Vizslak (17 October 2013)

Patterdale said:



			Oh dear, my poor little doggies seem to have moved from a puppy farm to the third world.......I dread to think where they'll be when I look at this tomorrow...!
		
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Dead? Would you even notice?


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## Spring Feather (17 October 2013)

Vizslak said:



			Yes but they will loose a few to nature before they hit maturity
		
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More than likely.  The bitch usually brings out 4 to 6 pups in the spring, so not too bad a result and they have the older pups (yearlings) who help raise the puppies.  Coyotes are pretty resilient creatures and appear to have very high success rates around here.




			and moreover they won't be off to live in a house when they hit 8 weeks
		
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No, they get taken off away from the hole in my woods and learn to live outside in the wilds.


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## Spring Feather (17 October 2013)

Vizslak said:



			Dead? Would you even notice?
		
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That is sooo out of order.


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## Teaselmeg (17 October 2013)

Patterdale said:



  

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Coyotes are wild animals who live outdoors and are not going to be pets !!  Early socialisation is key, particularly for dogs that are going to be pets.

http://www.thepuppyplan.com/?page_id=27


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## Vizslak (17 October 2013)

It's all a little irrelevant, they are wild friggin coyotes not domestic dogs. 

Not sure how that remark was that out of order. Merely an observation that it would unlikely go unnoticed until morning. I would think they are particularly vulnerable right now, at 3 weeks old and no bitch even in with them. Even my most unmaternal bitches have still slept happily with the pups at 3 weeks, and that's indoors where they are unlikely to come to much harm anyway


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## Patterdale (17 October 2013)

Vizslak said:



			Yes but they will loose a few to nature before they hit maturity and moreover they won't be off to live in a house when they hit 8 weeks
		
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Well thank goodness I abandoned my original 'hole in the woods' idea then.....:rolleyes3:



Vizslak said:



			Dead? Would you even notice?
		
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What a disgusting comment. 

Why I'm even bothering to justify myself to a few rude strangers on the Internet I DON'T know.....
My puppies are all healthy, happy, warm, well cared for, loved and well socialised. The people who have already reserved pups are more than happy with their condition, temperaments and living arrangements. 
And anyone who has a problem with the probably needs to get out more. 

I've tried to stay polite, but don't think I will manage it much longer, so will bow out now. But this thread has opened my eyes to some of the truly nasty and spitefully minded posters on this forum. 
And also some of the nicer ones.


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## Patterdale (17 October 2013)

Vizslak said:



			It's all a little irrelevant, they are wild friggin coyotes not domestic dogs. 

Not sure how that remark was that out of order. Merely an observation that it would unlikely go unnoticed until morning. I would think they are particularly vulnerable right now, at 3 weeks old and no bitch even in with them. Even my most unmaternal bitches have still slept happily with the pups at 3 weeks, and that's indoors where they are unlikely to come to much harm anyway
		
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They're almost 6 weeks old, learn to read.


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## Spring Feather (17 October 2013)

Vizslak said:



			It's all a little irrelevant, they are wild friggin coyotes not domestic dogs.
		
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Not irrelevant imo.  They are dogs, albeit wild, who give birth in a hole.  Not a kennel, not indoors and not in a horse trailer.




			Not sure how that remark was that out of order. Merely an observation that it would unlikely go unnoticed until morning.
		
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You know your comment was out of order hence your back peddling now.


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## Vizslak (17 October 2013)

No I geniunely don't think it was out of order. Though as above at 6 weeks it's less concerning than 3, not sure where I got that from so probably as irrelevant as your coyote post.
Ets unlikely to go unnoticed made no sense I meant likely to go unnoticed!


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## Dobiegirl (17 October 2013)

I think this thread should be entitled Coming to a rescue near you, Patterdales reared outside,unsocialised being sold as pets is a recipe for disaster.


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## Vizslak (17 October 2013)

Also your comment about the coyotes is even more irrelevant as I just took the time to read the thread in which they were being born...had they had no human intervention....experienced or otherwise....patterdale probably would have lost thé bitch and thé entire litter. So yes, the bitch is a domestic dog and thé puppies are going to be domestic dogs.


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## Patterdale (17 October 2013)

Dobiegirl said:



			I think this thread should be entitled Coming to a rescue near you, Patterdales reared outside,unsocialised being sold as pets is a recipe for disaster.
		
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All pups going with the agreement that they can come back to me at any time if owners circumstances change. 
But again, why justify myself?? 

And terriers, reared outside!? :eek3: What a thought!!

And I can probably think of a few more choice titles for this thread...'HHO at its finest' perhaps being the most polite.......


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## Dobiegirl (17 October 2013)

No problems with Terriers being bred outside its the circumstances, youve winged it basically, all very last minute, asking for advice when bitch is whelping, I also live on a farm and even the farm Collies in the past were whelped and reared in the house.


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## Moomin1 (17 October 2013)

amymay said:



			Patterdale is not a puppy farmer.

And you can't compare one litter of puppies with barns full of puppies in any part of the country.

S4sugar, you are vile.
		
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Wow, that's a bit harsh.


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## Amymay (17 October 2013)

Moomin1 said:



			Wow, that's a bit harsh.
		
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which part?


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## Moomin1 (17 October 2013)

amymay said:



			which part?
		
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The vile bit.  

I can't see anything 'vile' which S4sugar has really said?


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## Vizslak (17 October 2013)

I've also bred litters outside, and don't have an issue with dogs being reared outside....if they are working dogs for working homes. I agree with dgs other comments, you have winged it all a bit patterdale. You can't say you havnt. At 6 weeks is it not a little late to be saying, 'oh I didn't know that, how are you meant to rear pups?' Even litters I have raised outside in the past have been incredibly hard work and time consuming.


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## Patterdale (17 October 2013)

Dobiegirl said:



			No problems with Terriers being bred outside its the circumstances, youve winged it basically, all very last minute, asking for advice when bitch is whelping, I also live on a farm and even the farm Collies in the past were whelped and reared in the house.
		
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I've never ever heard of collies whelped (or even living) in a house. 

And yes, I did post on here when she was whelping. As you'll know, being such an expert, there's a lot of waiting around and I wanted to share it with someone. 
I was also, if you'll read, on the phone to the vet the whole time (who was too far away to attend). 
Having delivered literally hundreds, if not thousands of animals I am very comfortable with the birth process. However, I don't have as much experience with dogs. 
So I had lots of help and advice running up to, throughout the birth, and beyond. 

You may think that is 'winging it,' but I think you are being needlessly spiteful. 
So there we are.


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## Patterdale (17 October 2013)

Vizslak said:



			I've also bred litters outside, and don't have an issue with dogs being reared outside....if they are working dogs for working homes. I agree with dgs other comments, you have winged it all a bit patterdale. You can't say you havnt. At 6 weeks is it not a little late to be saying, 'oh I didn't know that, how are you meant to rear pups?' Even litters I have raised outside in the past have been incredibly hard work and time consuming.
		
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That's not what I'm saying though, is it?
I was saying, this is how ive done it, and asking how others do it. 
As with anything with animals, there can be many 'right' ways and hearing about them is one of the interesting aspects of this forum. 
Ill think twice another time though...!


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## Vizslak (17 October 2013)

With all due respect.  I don't know anyone who has managed to pull a tail off a puppy during whelping! However I commend that you were at least in attendance with a vet on the phone. As i stated before had you let nature take it's course you likely would have had a disaster on your hands. It makes me wonder though, how, if you are the type that doesn't believe in just letting the bitch get on with it DURING whelping why you took that stance more once they had arrived? Anyway that's just a random musing and of little consequence.


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## Vizslak (17 October 2013)

I've also never heard of anyone adlib feeding a litter, that's possibley shocked me the most bizarrely. So I do wonder where your expert advice or research on weaning etc came from!


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## Vizslak (17 October 2013)

Regardless, it's all a bit late, they are here, they are 6 weeks, you have done it in whatever way you have done it, they have pet homes etc etc, nothing will change any of that now, unless you change your mind and sell them all to the local terriermen! If you want puppy guide templates for your new owners pm me and I will send you. I would suggest if you intend to contract the pups which again, admirable, you send comprehensive guides out on how to train correctly and settle into the house environment, I'm not sure how useful my guides will be, in terms of the fact my puppies are raised very differently but it will certainly give you a rough mark of points to include so you can tweek accordingly


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## Dobiegirl (17 October 2013)

Patterdale said:



			I've never ever heard of collies whelped (or even living) in a house. 

Just because youve never heard of it before dosnt make it unusual, the bitches in the past often came into the 2nd kitchen for scraps etc and were happy to be whelped in there, they certainly were not encouraged into the rest of the house. Their living quarters were adjacent to the farmhouse so they were hardly living in the house.
		
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## Vizslak (17 October 2013)

Off topic but I know loads of farm collies that live in houses. In that they come into a utility room or the kitchen to sleep by the aga in the evenings


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## Dobiegirl (18 October 2013)

Vizslak said:



			Off topic but I know loads of farm collies that live in houses. In that they come into a utility room or the kitchen to sleep by the aga in the evenings
		
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Maybe its a Mendip thing, where they lead others may follow lol.


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## EAST KENT (18 October 2013)

Vizslak said:



			With all due respect.  I don't know anyone who has managed to pull a tail off a puppy during whelping! However I commend that you were at least in attendance with a vet on the phone. As i stated before had you let nature take it's course you likely would have had a disaster on your hands. It makes me wonder though, how, if you are the type that doesn't believe in just letting the bitch get on with it DURING whelping why you took that stance more once they had arrived? Anyway that's just a random musing and of little consequence.
		
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  Pulled A TAIL OFF???Dear God,that would take some doing!Why defend the indefensible?You knew she was pregnant,the arrangements are not within a mile of being adequate,just don`t do it again.By the way...did someone dock them for you?Or perhaps the tails fell off at just the right length ,conveniently.Poor bloody dogs.


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## FinnishLapphund (18 October 2013)

Personally I don't believe that you can only be a good dog owner if you feed raw/BARF. Since I doubt that there is anybody holding a gun to your head, and trying to force you to stop feeding your dogs raw *EAST KENT*, I don't understand why you have to talk so condescending about dry food. 

Even though I rode and spent a lot of my youth in stables, even though that I continue to read a lot about horses, and that I'm interested in their behaviour etc, I don't own a horse. So judging by *Dobiegirl*'s reply on this thread, I presume that there is people on HHO that thinks that I shouldn't respond to horse questions, but I have no intention to stop replying on horse threads when I feel for it. 

To me, it sounds as if *Vizslak* expects good breeders to somehow be able to watch a litter 24 hours per day for 8 weeks so closely, so that they would immediately notice if one of the puppies died. Maybe that is not how she meant it, but it is how it sounded to me. Anyhow, personally, I tried to sleep as much as possible during the nights when I had a litter of puppies (which I did, by the way, breed to get a puppy to keep for myself). And even though I kept the litter in my bedroom, there is definitely a possibility/risk that I would not instantly have noticed if a puppy had died during night (after all, unless they did something that woke me up, I slept). Or day for that matter, e.g. I didn't take them with me to the toilet. I didn't think (and still don't) that there was such a big risk for that they would keel over and die at any possible moment, that I felt that such precautions was necessary.  



I know that UK laws might be different, but according to Swedish law, quoted from "A compendium of animal welfare regulations applicable maintenance of dogs and cats", owners are to provide their dogs with the possibility to sleep/rest on something soft, a "surface that is thick enough so that the dog is comfortable and so that bed sores do not occur, may consist of straw, durable blankets, mattresses, soft mattresses etc."
It also says that whether the whelping box is in- or outdoors, "it should provide extra protection against cold temperatures."   

As far as I know, hay or straw is rather good materials to use for insulation. So even though I don't currently know anybody that have straw beds for their dogs, adults or puppies, I don't automatically think that there is something wrong with the care that Patterdale gives their litter of puppies, it is fully possible that they're just doing it different from how I did it.


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## EAST KENT (19 October 2013)

Hay and straw can have been accessed by rats and mice prior to use;these rodents carry killer diseases ..Lepto and Hepatitus,no puppy will survive them likely as not.THAT is the reason it is unacceptable bedding. In this country licensed breeders are made to provide accommadation capable of being heated,and quite right too.Even my local foxhound pack have whelping kennels with heat lamps,not hard to install at all.


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## NellRosk (19 October 2013)

Patterdale please do not listen to these idiot fools (although I'm sure you aren't). My terrier bitch raised 5 pups outside and these are all (shock horror) alive/ in pet homes. I'm not sure why some of these breeders are getting quite so hysterical but they are really crossing the line with some comments and I'm not sure why they feel it their prerogative to do so!


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## Dry Rot (19 October 2013)

NellRosk said:



			Patterdale please do not listen to these idiot fools (although I'm sure you aren't). My terrier bitch raised 5 pups outside and these are all (shock horror) alive/ in pet homes. I'm not sure why some of these breeders are getting quite so hysterical but they are really crossing the line with some comments and I'm not sure why they feel it their prerogative to do so!
		
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Well put.

Hay and straw harmful to dogs?

Sometimes it is better to keep your mouth shut and appear a fool rather than open it and remove all doubt.


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## EAST KENT (20 October 2013)

I would assume then that Dry Rot has probably never heard of Leptospirosis or Hepatitus,much less vaccinated against it.The remark more applies to your good self,the conditions were inadequate,end of story.


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## hnmisty (20 October 2013)

Well patterdale, I must say that's not how we bred and raised our pups (Labs), ours were born in the kitchen and stayed there for their first few weeks before they were moved to the shed with a heat lamp. We had a board across the door so mun could come and go as she wanted, and they were fed 5 times a day in individual dishes (cat food bowls actually... Gosh, I'm waiting for the knock on the door from the police for animal abuse!)

...but...you don't deserve to be called a puppy farmer, and whilst as I said whilst it's not the way we raised ours, I'm pretty certain your pups are doing just fine 

I've seen some pretty um...interesting views on this thread...laughing at hay and straw being too dirty for animals that eat quite literally *****! Some people don't seem to realise that there's a slight difference between humans and animals. And if hay and straw are too dirty, what about the bare ground that animals are often born onto? Heaven forbid but our sheep usually lamb out in the field. I must make the case for concerting the living room into a sterile hospital ward.

I'm adding two things before I duck and run:

1) our puppies were on hay once they were moved outside

2) my dad (the breeder) is a vet


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## Spring Feather (20 October 2013)

EAST KENT said:



			Hay and straw can have been accessed by rats and mice prior to use;these rodents carry killer diseases ..Lepto and Hepatitus,no puppy will survive them likely as not.THAT is the reason it is unacceptable bedding.
		
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Oh for goodness sake; puppies, like almost all mammals, receive passive immunity from their mothers via placenta and then through the mothers colostrum.  This gives them a good deal of protection against diseases in the early weeks until they are old enough to be vaccinated.


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## Crugeran Celt (20 October 2013)

I am astounded where this thread has gone since I saw it first. I am quite sure Patterdale's pups are happy, healthy and thriving and will be ready for their new pet homes soon. For the few very rude and condescending posters, I thought this was a forum where people could expect constructive advice and a friendly animal savvy community to help us less knowledgeable animal owners not rude unnecessary criticism.


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## Patterdale (21 October 2013)

Thanks everyone. 

For a moment there I thought I had stepped into a parallel universe where hay and straw is toxic to animals and fresh air can kill in seconds. 



Vizslak said:



			I've also never heard of anyone adlib feeding a litter, that's possibley shocked me the most bizarrely. So I do wonder where your expert advice or research on weaning etc came from!
		
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Going by farm animals, and using pet lambs as an example, if you give a bottle (or creep feed) every 4 hours, they bolt it down crazily and then lie in a corner with full bellies. 
If you put them onto the milk machine, or a creep feeder, they regulate their own intake, eat just as much as they need, and mealtimes never become a crazy scrum. 
This has been exactly the same with my puppies. They are all a healthy weight, and there is no competition for food as they all have constant access. They've regulated their own intake, as other animals do. 
I don't regret for a moment feeding them adlib at this stage and I would do it again. 

So again - not 'winging it' - but carefully thought out and executed. 



EAST KENT said:



			Pulled A TAIL OFF???Dear God,that would take some doing!Why defend the indefensible?You knew she was pregnant,the arrangements are not within a mile of being adequate,just don`t do it again.By the way...did someone dock them for you?Or perhaps the tails fell off at just the right length ,conveniently.Poor bloody dogs.
		
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If you had actually READ......
The first pup was stuck for a long time. We waited to hear back from the vet (it was out of hours) and when he rang he was an hour away. The puppy was breech and upside down. It was swollen, not moving and looking very dead. The bitch was exhausted. 
The vet told us, as we already knew, that we had to get that puppy out if the others (and the bitch) were to be saved. We couldn't wait for him so he instructed us over the phone. 
The pup was stuck fast and took some pretty hard pulling to get out. With only a tail and the tips of 2 tiny feet to go at, the tail took the worst of it. 
The vet instructed us that this was preferable to a leg. If the tail broke, the pup would bear it much better than a broken leg. 
The tail DID break, but the puppy came out, and the rest of the litter followed swiftly afterwards. It was only the very tip, half a centimetre if that. 
The pup didnt breathe for a while but we eventually got it going and it's now just as bouncy as all the others. 

And FYI, EASTKENT, in answer to the rest of your vitriolic bile - the rest of the litter are NOT DOCKED. I have left their tails well alone, as the mothers is, and as nature intended. 

Thank you though, for your malicious assumptions, they've served very well to show your character as it truly is, even if they have no other use whatsoever.


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## Crugeran Celt (21 October 2013)

Quite interesting that feeding add lib is not recommended as many midwives recommend feeding babies on demand these days which is the same thing as it is more natural!!!! I get so frustrated by people who probably do know more about this but instead of passing on their knowledge and being prepared to learn themselves they climb up on their pedestal and start dictating, just remember it can be a hard fall from such a high height.:wink3:


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## twiggy2 (21 October 2013)

Crugeran Celt said:



			Quite interesting that feeding add lib is not recommended as many midwives recommend feeding babies on demand these days which is the same thing as it is more natural!!!! I get so frustrated by people who probably do know more about this but instead of passing on their knowledge and being prepared to learn themselves they climb up on their pedestal and start dictating, just remember it can be a hard fall from such a high height.:wink3:
		
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midwives recommend breast feeding on demand very different to solid food available all the time


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## Crugeran Celt (21 October 2013)

twiggy2 said:



			midwives recommend breast feeding on demand very different to solid food available all the time
		
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Do your horses have access to forage constantly? Just wondering.


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## Amymay (21 October 2013)

Anyone watch Countryfile??


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## twiggy2 (21 October 2013)

Crugeran Celt said:



			Do your horses have access to forage constantly? Just wondering.[/QUOTE/]

my horse is not a 5 week old puppy 

even adult horses and dogs digestive system and diet have no resemblance to one another-you cannot compare them.
		
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## twiggy2 (21 October 2013)

amymay said:



			Anyone watch Countryfile??
		
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yes I did and it made me think of this thread and the opinions that had been expressed so forthrightly


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## Patterdale (21 October 2013)

I watched Countryfile with interest. 

I wonder if some contributors to this thread will be calling Ofcom - cruel heartless people bedding puppies on STRAW :eek3: :rolleyes3:

They must be total novices, 'winging it,' or puppy farmers.....

:rolleyes3:


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## Amymay (21 October 2013)

:eek3: :rolleyes3::rolleyes3:


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## DabDab (21 October 2013)

I haven't been on HHO for a while and I just thought I'd go on the dog section because it is usually quiet in here and sometimes some interesting topics - but this thread is bonkers!

I am particularly intrigued by the notion that you have to keep an animal in its early life, in the way it will be kept in its adult life. Out of 3 dogs, 2 cats and 1 horse that I currently own, only one of them spent their early life in a situation even remotely similar to the one that I took them out of. 

If people on here are breeding dogs so neurotic that they struggle to cope living in a different way from that which they were bred, or so lacking in immunity that they can't step outdoors without first having shots, then I think that says more about their breeding programme than how anyone else chooses to raise their animals.


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## Spring Feather (22 October 2013)

Crugeran Celt said:



			Do your horses have access to forage constantly? Just wondering.
		
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My horses have ad-lib food available to them at all times.  As do my dogs.  And my parrots.  And my cats.  And my family.  And me :smile3:  

And my puppies, although not fed ad-lib when they are first being weaned, once they are out and running around out of their pen, yes they are able to crunch away on the big dogs food if they so desire and as soon as they are fully integrated with my big dogs I also have ad-lib puppy food available to them at all times.


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## Patterdale (22 October 2013)

No apology then EASTKENT, for your wild and malicious accusations?


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## EAST KENT (26 October 2013)

Patterdale said:



			No apology then EASTKENT, for your wild and malicious accusations?
		
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absolutely none,try harder if there is a next time


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## Patterdale (26 October 2013)

EAST KENT said:



			absolutely none,try harder if there is a next time
		
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Lol, tbh I think this thread says far more about you than it does about me....


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## JFTDWS (26 October 2013)

This thread is... barking :eek3:

I've never bred a litter...

But I'd have one of Patters' (or DryRot's, not that he'd let me!) in an instant. 

I think some of the posts on this thread are disgusting - and I'm not one to advocate excessive mincing of words.


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## Patterdale (26 October 2013)

JFTD said:



			This thread is... barking :eek3:

I've never bred a litter...

But I'd have one of Patters' (or DryRot's, not that he'd let me!) in an instant. 

I think some of the posts on this thread are disgusting - and I'm not one to advocate excessive mincing of words.
		
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Thanks. I did think that some of the replies were pretty far past the line....!


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## Amymay (26 October 2013)

JFTD said:



			This thread is... barking :eek3:

I've never bred a litter...

But I'd have one of Patters' (or DryRot's, not that he'd let me!) in an instant. 

I think some of the posts on this thread are disgusting - and I'm not one to advocate excessive mincing of words.
		
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I'd have had one like a shot too. Just npt a possibility until our move in December.  But a baby Patterdale would make a great companion for our Bichon.


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## JFTDWS (26 October 2013)

Patterdale said:



			Thanks. I did think that some of the replies were pretty far past the line....!
		
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Beyond the pale, I'd say.  But hey, I know who I think comes out of this ok, and who comes out of it having shown themselves up something rotten - for what little that's worth.


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## Slightlyconfused (27 October 2013)

JFTD said:



			This thread is... barking :eek3:

I've never bred a litter...

But I'd have one of Patters' (or DryRot's, not that he'd let me!) in an instant. 

I think some of the posts on this thread are disgusting - and I'm not one to advocate excessive mincing of words.
		
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Agree with the above.

Our Cocker was reared the same way as patterdales pups, we brought her from a farmer from his barn......she then cane to live in our house, mum was a child minder and we never ever had a problem. She was the sweetest dog you could ever own, put up with the kids like she had been round them her entire life, we sadly lost her five years ago at the grand old age of 13.

All of my Grampys gun dogs were reared as above as well, he then had them at home indoors no problem adjusting to family/kids/grand kids life.

Patterdale, ignore them, sometimes humans interfere too much in things.


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## gunnergundog (28 October 2013)

Sadly this thread throws up just a few more names to add to the 'ignore' list.  I hasten to add, not you, Patterdale!


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## meesha (28 October 2013)

Sorry not read most of the rubbish spouted, only your posts patterdale.  All I have to say is... I would have a pup from you in a heartbeat...... And ...... Thank god you have used common sense with the pups, they sound happy, healthy and very very lucky, especially little stuck short tail !


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## echodomino (28 October 2013)

I've not read the whole thread but get the jist that this is turning into a typical HHO shoot down, unfortunate really as AAD used to pretty much avoid that even when people voiced opinions. Whilst it's not the way I'd do it, if the puppies are healthy, happy and growing surely that's the important thing?? 

My JR Millie is now 12 years old, she's a fab dog and I had her from someone who didn't even put in what Patterdale has! She was in a barn in the pitch black, in a rabbit hutch that hadn't been cleaned out, with little to no contact and reared on dinner scraps and bits of bone! Yet they let her out for us to see and she was the most delightful little thing. She was the last of the litter and luckily there was nothing wrong with her. Rightly or wrongly I took her and I have no regrets.

And regarding the tail incident it can happen, Mouse had to have a c-sec after 3 pups of her first litter were born due to the fourth being breach and stuck. Before the vet decided to operate she tried to aid pup out and whilst trying the tip of his tail came off. Unfortunately by the time she got in to get him out we'd lost him, turns out he was actually side ways. But goes to show something like that can happen to a professional, doesn't mean that the owner was doing a bad job whelping the litter!!


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## ribbons (29 October 2013)

Having read through this thread I'm laughing my head off at the rubbish spouted by some.

I echo dabdab's post.
If those of you slating patterdale breed such nervous creatures they can't cope with life indoors after not seeing a washing machine in their first 10 weeks or so you should not be breeding.

If you breed pups so delicate they cant survive without artificial heat in the temps we've had and with such a low immune system through their mother they will die without constant steralising of everything you shouldn't be breeding.

A litter of terrier pups, born and reared out of the house in warm dry conditions, in lovely late summer climate, by a responsible owner, is pretty near perfect.

Far preferable to petting, poking and removing pups individually from mum and each other at 10 days old to "socialise" them

Far better than living in sterile conditions with no opportunity to build an immune system, then constantly jabbing them to make up for it.

Puppies  born outside will adjust easily to indoor life when they go to their new homes, carefully selected by their breeder.

Those bred in centrally heated homes, kept well away from anything less than sterile will suffer considerably when their new owners, (not so carefully selected by many holier than thou breeders) get fed up and put them out in the shed.

Carry on patterdale. Your doing fine. The world is full of experts who know nothing. As you must know if you have horses.!!


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## CorvusCorax (29 October 2013)

**Looks into future. Patterdale's puppies are now four years old. This thread is still rumbling on**


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## EAST KENT (29 October 2013)

CaveCanem said:



			**Looks into future. Patterdale's puppies are now four years old. This thread is still rumbling on**
		
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HAHA..you`re so right there CC! pmsl


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## {97702} (29 October 2013)

CaveCanem said:



			**Looks into future. Patterdale's puppies are now four years old. This thread is still rumbling on**
		
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Only 4 years?  This thread will be going til the next bloody millennium the way people keep going back to poke and stir a bit more....


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## echodomino (29 October 2013)

CaveCanem said:



			**Looks into future. Patterdale's puppies are now four years old. This thread is still rumbling on**
		
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Had to re read that ^^ managed to read as they WERE four years old, didn't really go back and check the date the thread started!!! Lmao


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## FinnishLapphund (29 October 2013)

CaveCanem said:



			**Looks into future. Patterdale's puppies are now four years old. This thread is still rumbling on**
		
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Picklenash said:



			Only 4 years?  This thread will be going til the next bloody millennium the way people keep going back to poke and stir a bit more....
		
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Off topic, but I think that your siggy is funny Picklenash  ("HHO - hypochondriacs here online ")


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## stargirl88 (29 October 2013)

Blimey. Now I remember why I don't frequent here anymore....

Patterdale, hope your puppinos are okay! Are there photos anywhere?!?


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## Patterdale (29 October 2013)

Thank you for the very nice things which have been written 

My puppies are *shock horror* still clinging to life. I'm still forcing the poisonous dry food down their ungrateful necks at regular intervals, and now and then I dunk them in the slurry pit to toughen them up a bit. 
Chased them around with a Hoover yesterday though, on a long extension out to the shed, before strapping them all into a purpose built little amphitheatre to watch the washing machine do a few cycles. Had the smelling salts on hand but they all seemed to come through it unscathed, little darlings 

I can always do a weekly update until they're 4 if people would like? That is - if I can remember which litter it was. Being a puppy farmer, it's easy to lose track!


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## {97702} (29 October 2013)

FinnishLapphund said:



			Off topic, but I think that your siggy is funny Picklenash  ("HHO - hypochondriacs here online ")
		
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I dont think they like it in Club House   But then that is where all the hypochondriacs post


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## Dry Rot (30 October 2013)

"As You Like It", Act 5, Scene 1.


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## Patterdale (30 October 2013)

Dry Rot said:



			"As You Like It", Act 5, Scene 1.
		
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Touchstone?


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## {97702} (30 October 2013)

Dry Rot said:



			"As You Like It", Act 5, Scene 1.
		
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 I had to google that....,


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## Amymay (30 October 2013)

Picklenash said:



			I had to google that....,
		
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Me too!


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## TrasaM (30 October 2013)

Just WOW! Wondered why such an innocuous titled thread had gone on for so long
Dogs living and whelping in a barn! Goodness gracious me! Whatever next! Someone fetch me the smelling salts I think I'm about to swoon.


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## RunToEarth (30 October 2013)

Patterdale said:



			Thank you for the very nice things which have been written 

My puppies are *shock horror* still clinging to life. I'm still forcing the poisonous dry food down their ungrateful necks at regular intervals, and now and then I dunk them in the slurry pit to toughen them up a bit. 
Chased them around with a Hoover yesterday though, on a long extension out to the shed, before strapping them all into a purpose built little amphitheatre to watch the washing machine do a few cycles. Had the smelling salts on hand but they all seemed to come through it unscathed, little darlings 

I can always do a weekly update until they're 4 if people would like? That is - if I can remember which litter it was. Being a puppy farmer, it's easy to lose track!     

Click to expand...

I followed this thread and never replied, to put your mind at rest I bought my terrier from a neighbouring farmer, the bitch had been reared in a coal shed and she is now in her seventh year of not soiling herself whenever she hears "household noises" not crapping when the floor surface changes and not chewing the hell out of everything - unfortunately she does often come into the kitchen with a rat/pheasant/bunny in her mouth, and she also dunks herself in the slurry pit on the not so rare occasion.
 I got lynched by the same mob a few years ago for my irresponsible breeding - don't let it get to you.


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## CorvusCorax (30 October 2013)

I did see a FB contact with a litter of GSD puppies in a kennel in a plastic bed with a few strands of straw for bedding and it made me think of this thread!!


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## doriangrey (31 October 2013)

OMG!  I bed my pony down on straw!  What if she eats a bit with mouse pee on it?


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## hairycob (31 October 2013)

Saw this thread was still going & popped in to check Patterdale wasn't feeding them ragwort - if we could combine the 2 threads it could be a halloween special - the thread that will never die & leap out at you when you least expect it.


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## Patterdale (1 November 2013)

hairycob said:



			Saw this thread was still going & popped in to check Patterdale wasn't feeding them ragwort - if we could combine the 2 threads it could be a halloween special - the thread that will never die & leap out at you when you least expect it.
		
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This made me actually lol - Halloween special! *snort*


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## misterjinglejay (2 November 2013)

hairycob said:



			Saw this thread was still going & popped in to check Patterdale wasn't feeding them ragwort - if we could combine the 2 threads it could be a halloween special - the thread that will never die & leap out at you when you least expect it.
		
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PMSL - very good!


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