# Thoughts on riding a horse with navicular?



## merliebug (20 March 2011)

Hi all, just looking for people's opinions and experiences really... (Bit long, sorry).

I have a rising 8 TB gelding, who has been diagnosed with navicular (by MRI) since summer 2009. Following intermittent lameness, originally attributed to an old suspensory injury, nerve blocks detected lameness lower down, so off pony went to horse hospital and was given a poor prognosis for returning to 'full' (competition) work. Luckily I had never planned to use him as a competition horse, but had planned for him to be a hacker/ dressage/ light jumping beastie.

He was given 8 months off, usually 24 hour turnout as it was summer, and had courses of navilox, tildren, strong joint supplement and of course remedial farriery (pads, wedges, etc, etc). Lameness was intermittent - sometimes sounds for months with only the odd 'lame day' - and he still insisted on galloping all day every day in the field, as he still does now. Ridden work was only ever light hacking and odd bit of schooling in field.

After having had more time off for another injury in winter 2010, he came back into work for a bit of summer and early autumn, but I didn't bother to do much knowing that I wouldn't be able to keep it regular over the winter with full-time work.

My question is, would you bother to bring back in again now it's spring? He is sound probably 95% of the time, and generally only 'off' when he's been galivanting too much in the field. I'm told by most people I'm being over-cautious, and my vet has said ride him when sound, using judgement as to what I do, but if he's having an off day or week just not to bother (goes without saying I guess). He still has wedge shoes and joint supplement, but not on bute. Prognosis was 'very poor' with off fore worse than near fore, but was reminded that prognosis was related to hosp vets thinking he was a sports horse not a pleasure horse.

What have your experiences been with navicular horses? He does enjoy getting out and about, and moves very freely, and I suppose if he was in any sort of pain he wouldn't be galloping around playing games out in the field? 

Would appreciate your thoughts (and tips!)

Thanks.


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## Samantha008 (20 March 2011)

My friends horse on may yard has navicular. Is it the syndrome or disease? One means it gets worse the other stays the same ( I could be wrong there) but basically, she does dressage and hacking on him. Shes been told not to jump becasue of the impact on his feet when he hits the ground. She will only canter on soft ground though and doesnt really ride out on hard ground all that much. 

He also has corrective shoeing. Hes in natural balance shoes i think?

Though on the other hand, another friend of mine, sent her horse to rockley farm rehabilitation for navicular and hes, fingers crossed, coming sound for the first time. She hasnt ridden him for years though and hes been really lame.

Good luck. I would ride if he enjoys it. Just dont go bolting around hard ground!!!


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## kirstyl (20 March 2011)

Get him working and see how it goes!  I personally think it is good for any horse to have a purpose and he sounds (by his field antics!) as if he is ready for work.  Certainly worth bringing him back into work and getting him fit sensibly and see how you go.  I have worked with a couple of horses with navicular and neither were the type (or age) just to be finished there and then.  Bet of luck x


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## Apercrumbie (20 March 2011)

I can't see any reason why you shouldn't bring him back into work.  He's only lame 5% of the time and on those days he can have a break.  He's only 8 and shouldn't be written off just yet, particularly when there are many horses with navicular in work quite happily.  As the vet said, use your judgement and try not to worry too much.


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## merliebug (20 March 2011)

Thank you! His will get progressively worse, so I guess it's the disease form, but they usually use the word 'syndrome' when they're not entirely sure as it covers them either way! I am always very very careful with the ground I trot/ canter on, and in fact very rarely do either! Hills are always welcome too, so as to alleviate excess weight on front feet!

It's good to hear that others are still riding, albeit lightly, and to be honest my confidence isn't great so it's sometimes a nice excuse to not go on a fast group hack!!! I am thinking of moving yards soon and the new school has a great springy rubber surface, so provided the corners don't cause him any issues, that will be a nice reliable place to ride 

I just wish I could tell HIM not to gallop around on hard ground  !!!

Thanks again for your reply, nice to have a positive one!


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## Apricot (20 March 2011)

In two minds about this!! Because lameness due to navicular is caused by pain... But what human doesn't feel a bit achey in the mornings, and often better after excercise. 

I have a horse with various joint issues (now retired). He would tell me very clearly if he didn't feel up to something, and I just avoided pushing him. He wasn't on bute either. I retired him for the same reason as you, he was a nutter if he didn't have decent excercise every day, obviously couldn't ride him on an off day, and it simply got to the point that it wasn't working, and decided to retire him, just because keeping him fit was so stressful, always worrying if he was in pain, and I could never predict when he would go lame. He was lame (unrideable) about 50% of the time. I think he misses work, and if I had a lot of time (and full body armour) on my hands, I would bring him back into work on bute.

What about feeding something such as Devil's Claw, or a buteless supplement? Expensive, but with my boy, the worrying about if he was in pain was probably a lot worse than the pain itself, and this would stop that worry.


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## RoseGrey (20 March 2011)

Work him ! He will be happier and healthier for it and so will you ! 
They get bored. 
Hacking in walk on roads and small amounts of faster work on soft ground will be fine for him.
If he was in pain he would stand still and be looking sad.
A happy horse will charge about and have some fun, which is what your horse is doing!
Light work (3-4 times a week) should be fine for him. 
Even the odd dressage test, showing class or in-hand competition ?
Don't let Navicular be the 'end of the world' because it isnt. 
I have stiff and sore hips, knees and elbows but I still work and it gets better with exercise. I couldn't cope with being in the house all day every day, horses must be the same !?
I have seen lame horses win dressage comps so there is hope for everyone !!


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## cptrayes (20 March 2011)

merliebug said:



			Thank you! His will get progressively worse, so I guess it's the disease form, but they usually use the word 'syndrome' when they're not entirely sure as it covers them either way! I am always very very careful with the ground I trot/ canter on, and in fact very rarely do either! Hills are always welcome too, so as to alleviate excess weight on front feet!

It's good to hear that others are still riding, albeit lightly, and to be honest my confidence isn't great so it's sometimes a nice excuse to not go on a fast group hack!!! I am thinking of moving yards soon and the new school has a great springy rubber surface, so provided the corners don't cause him any issues, that will be a nice reliable place to ride 

I just wish I could tell HIM not to gallop around on hard ground  !!!

Thanks again for your reply, nice to have a positive one!
		
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Take a look at rockleyfarm.co.uk and rockleyfarm.blogspot.com and you will see pictures of plenty of "navicular" horses whose owners were told by their vets and farriers that they would never be sound again, all of them in work and most of them jumping, hunting and perfectly sound. I owned one myself last year, lame for the previous year and more, treated with adequan, tildren, HLA and bar shoes and still lame. He was sound after ten weeks of a barefoot rehab and he has remained sound for what is now approaching a year, medication free, competing dressage and jumping with the people I gave him to.

Navicular syndrome is used when there is no specific diagnosis but lameness caused by pain in the back half of the foot. Navicular disease is used where there is damage to the navicular bone. Research has shown that there is almost invariably damage to the deep digital flexor tendon when there is damage to the navicular bone. Since the amount of damage to the navicular bone shown on radiographs bears little relation to the lameness of the horse, it is likely that the lameness is caused by the DDFT damage and not the navicular bone changes. Most other lameness in the "navicular syndrome" spectrum appears, if MRI'd, to be collateral ligament damage. All those things respond well to a barefoot rehab, your horse is far from being a write-off yet.

ps you will though need to be VERY careful how the wedges are removed because his DDFT will have shrunk by now and need careful stretching not to damage it.


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## honetpot (20 March 2011)

I had a horse that the owners had been paid out for loss of use as he had navicular. This was several years ago when the only treatment really was waferin. I had him for 8 years, hunted him and hacked him everywhere. He would occasionally have the odd footy day but generally keeping him fit, off uneven ground and riding him up kept him sound. He had no treatment and no special shoeing and never needed bute. 
It makes you very sensitive to very slight lameness and the simple thing is if something makes him unlevel don't do it do something else.


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## Tinypony (21 March 2011)

I echo what Cptrayes is saying.  At 8 years old I'd be thinking seriously long-term and considering taking a step back and sending my horse there for rehab, then learning about a completely different way to care for him and his feet.  I'm not being evangelical here, I now have two personal friends whose horses have been turned around from a diagnosis of navicular by some serious "barefoot" work.  If my horse was 8 years old and I was in your situation then that is what I would do, nothing else.
He does not have to get progressively worse.


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## tallyho! (21 March 2011)

I also echo what CPTRAYES is saying - my horse diagnosed navicular 2009 and even though tried remedial shoeing for over a year, trying barefoot was the best thing I did for him last Aug. We were back doing dressage and jumping and also driving at 6 months even though vet said it would be a year. Also, my vet recommended barefoot and I know that is a rare case.


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## j1ffy (21 March 2011)

Another vote for Rockley Farm. My RI's horse has just returned from there and the improvement in him is huge, though he has a wide-ranging set of issues so a way to go yet. Still, he is now being lunged and ridden every day and consistently improving yet 6 months ago he was almost PTS. Rockley is also a beautiful place - I would think it is a horse's idea of heaven!

Bailey W's owner is also on HHO and has posted very positive updated on their comp and hunting progress. Her username is Lainey then some numbers - worth taking a look.


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## svallis83 (21 March 2011)

Hi there, just to let you know I have sent my horse to Rockley (she is only 5 in April), She went lame last summer and wasnt diagnosed with 'navicular bursitis' until December after an MRI and very worth while trip to new market. She too has had all of the drugs associated including Tildren. I re x rayed her about 3 weeks ago and there were no changes whatsover in her awful foot balance even though she had graduated bar shoes and pads in. I have never been convinced that she was quite sound (mainly under saddle in the school) and I did not feel that light work and bar shoes along with drugs are a long term solution for a young horse. After much consideration and lots of only positive feedback from other people I decided to take the plunge and send her to Rockley (see Lucy in the Rockley blog). I went to see her for the first time on Thursday and she has never been happier. I got to ride her around what can only be described as the most wonderful country, we were up and down terrain that I would never have considered at home, and that was after only 2 weeks of having shoes removed, she already feels better than ever. Yours is only 8, which is still so young. I would really say give the barefoot route a shot and I have a feeling you will not look back. I was so sceptical, but I have not changed my plans to event and hunt my horse - and now feel closer to it than I have done for a very long time! Good luck and do not give up hope x


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## Farma (21 March 2011)

Totally agree with Rosegrey answer. Mine became a field ornament after being diagnosed at about 7 years old - I decided to try and started working her at the ripe age of 14 and that was 3 years ago - she has come on leaps and bounds and is so much better for being ridden - she has turned into a pretty decent dressage horse too and the more she does the better she feels!
With regard to barefoot and treatment - it didnt work for me despite much effort so she has had remedial shoeing for years and has stayed sound so do what works for you and your horse but navicular doesnt equal the end!


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## merliebug (21 March 2011)

Wow, it's a Monday morning and I'm actually smiling from ear to ear - that's a big deal! Thank you so much for your replies (and sorry to the earliest replies, yours hadn't come through when I posted mine).

I'm so glad you've all recommended doing something with him, as he really does seem too young and fresh to write off yet. I am moving him soon to my farrier's yard, so it may be an ideal time to try him without shoes; he can be kept an eye on at all times and trimmed when needed. I must admit I did try the barefoot route a couple of years ago but he got so footsore he wouldn't even come out of his stable so I relented and put shoes back on. (Even tried the daftly expensive boots, and had people ask me why my horse wore 'trainers'!)

I will look into Rockley Farm, it certainly sounds like it's something to consider (unless you all work there and get a commission for referrals!!) Joking aside, it's something I would think about if it had positive long-term implications.

Like many said, my horse isn't one to take pain lying down, so if he is footy he certainly lets me know! I also ride armoured-up to the hilt, but do find he's infinitely better when in a routine. He's a very very attractive boy (that's one good thing!) so maybe showing would be something interesting to do with him, and he moves beautifully, so I'd like to try a bit of dressage. 

Thank you again all so much for your replies 

Happy Monday! (At least it's sunny).


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## j1ffy (21 March 2011)

Great to hear that the forum has cheered you up!

Re: going barefoot, it's far more about the diet and management of the horse than the trim (Nic Barker at Rockley is very adamant about this).  It would be worth reading up and maybe having a chat with Nic about it - she's extremely friendly and helpful.

As for commissions, I don't think Nic employs anyone and doubt she could afford them


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## Tickles (21 March 2011)

It is possible for (at least) some horses with navicular syndrome (no experience with those who have significant navicular changes) to hack, school and even jump. I've followed owner's advice of never riding if lame (walking out in hand only), always warming up in walk for 15min first and basically, listening to what the horse wants (feels comfortable with). That horse has special shoes although the interweb is full of happy stories about barefoot too.


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## pines of rome (21 March 2011)

Mine has been barefoot for 10 months but is now getting lamer, my EP says he can do no more for him, having x-rays tomorrow and leverage test, i think we will have to now look at remedial shoeing to help him, such a shame be cause outwardly his feet look good , but he has coffin joint issues as well.


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## Tinypony (21 March 2011)

Farma said:



			Totally agree with Rosegrey answer. Mine became a field ornament after being diagnosed at about 7 years old - I decided to try and started working her at the ripe age of 14 and that was 3 years ago - she has come on leaps and bounds and is so much better for being ridden - she has turned into a pretty decent dressage horse too and the more she does the better she feels!
With regard to barefoot and treatment - it didnt work for me despite much effort so she has had remedial shoeing for years and has stayed sound so do what works for you and your horse but navicular doesnt equal the end!
		
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Rockley Farm isn't just going barefoot, it's a full scale rehabilitation programme.  
I'm pleased that everyone has put a smile on your face merliebug, that's a great thing to read on a Monday morning!
All I can say is that until you try you'll never know.  I think we severely under-estimate the long-term effect even a slightly incorrect balancing of the hoof can have.  Imagine if someone put a 1 cm wedge under one side of your foot inside your shoe.  And then it stayed there all the time you were walking for the next 3 years.  It would affect your body in all sorts of ways, you'd also see callus build up in areas on the sole of your foot.  Add to that the huge amount that can be done to help horses by feeding the right diet and taking a look at the conditions they live in.  For an 8 year old baby, it's got to be worth a go hasn't it?  
I've watched a lady I know have first one horse suffer from tendon problems, then another.  For years I've been trying to point out that her farrier isn't actually doing a great job of balancing the hooves, but she says he's really good and that's that.  (He is punctual and friendly).  She has a new gelding now, only 3 years old and never shod, and I can't help wondering if a different farrier or trimmer would be a good idea.  I guess I'll never know.


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## pines of rome (21 March 2011)

Out of interest has anyone else tried the barefoot route, found it not to have worked out and gone back to shoes?


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## merliebug (21 March 2011)

I'm just recalling what the MRI report said now (although it's been a while since I read it), but although there was no direct reference to navicular 'disease', there were reported changes in both the navicular bone and the ligament, so I guess that's what it must be. Either way, I guess you have to work with the symptoms you have and base it on that - if you read the report you'd expect him to be a million times worse than he is.

It's interesting to read the pros and cons of barefoot rehabilitation (I appreciate it's not 'just' going barefoot, as with any change in a horse's routine you have to look at it holistically) and I am open to ideas. It's funny when you think of it in terms of wearing high heels all day every day, even with just a 1cm heel, it still would make a difference to the structure of your muscles and also to your posture too I guess. Interesting to think about!!

I guess as with anything it's a case of listen to what your horse tells you and don't push it. I don't want to break him, but I don't want him to be written off just yet either! I will look into devil's claw as someone suggested earlier (thank you!) although I know I couldn't put him on warfarin as he has a habit of cutting himself quite badly and would no doubt bleed to death or something equally dramatic!

Thanks again for your replies, keep them coming if there are more out there!


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## Tinypony (21 March 2011)

pines of rome said:



			Out of interest has anyone else tried the barefoot route, found it not to have worked out and gone back to shoes?
		
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I should think lots of people would say that.  Barefoot doesn't work for all horses, and sometimes it isn't an option that the owners can deal with.  (Because it's about a lot more than just the trim).  I don't think many people have sent their horses to a specialist barefoot rehab place like Rockly Farm though, because there aren't a lot of options available like that.


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## criso (21 March 2011)

pines of rome said:



			Out of interest has anyone else tried the barefoot route, found it not to have worked out and gone back to shoes?
		
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The thing about that question (and my horse is Frankie on the Rockley blog) is that most of us when we sent our horse to Rockley had already tried and failed with the tradtional options and various types of farriery.

 I believe and you would have to check with Nic that a couple of the horses at Rockley while they improved did not return to full work.  The bone degeneration was too advanced but I don't know what happened next and if they were retired or went back to shoes or just used for light hacking.

There was also one horse there that was already barefoot and not coming right but did at Rockley so as said it's not just about taking shoes off but a whole rehab programme.  It's not hugely difficult though once your horse is on the right track.  I'm careful about diet and do alot of conditioning work over different surfaces but other than that I just enjoy him. 

Going back to the OP Navicular can be misleading, some vets still use the term some don't. I have a diagnosis of soft tissue damage (dsil, ddft and collateral ligament); a friend whose MRI shows similar damage has a diagnosis of Navicular from a different vet at the same practice.
You have an MRI that by the sounds of it show soft tissue damage and some associated bone changes.  You would have nothing to lose by talking to Nic, she would be able to look at the MRI and say whether it is within the range of other horses she has helped and it would be an option.


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## kaiko (21 March 2011)

My old mare had it from 6 yrs old (she was buted when i tried her twice and i was 12 yrs old, mistakes all round).  However i kept her until she passed away last year at 24 yrs old.  She was shod with the toe clips removed and slightly rolled up toes and worked in an appropriate manner into her twentys.  I was always aware of her good days or bad days and removed her from Bute over fears for her long term health.  I used devils claw in the summer when the ground hardened to help her out but in all honesty....................she was the best horse i've ever had.  I miss her greatly band despite us being a little more restricted ie no jumping on hard ground, only on a sand or rubber surface and having to watch my sis competing, i wouldn't have changed her for the world.

He'll tell you if he's unhappy so go on and enjoy him.  She hated to be left bored in the field, so if you know them well enough, and are sensible about your work just trust your instinct.


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## merliebug (21 March 2011)

Thanks so much Kaiko! That's really nice to hear  The new place I'm going to has the most amazing rubber school, so hopefully (if circles don't prove a problem) that will help us when the ground is hard in the summer. I will also try devil's claw and perhaps use instead of the joint supplement which I am getting from my vet (£60 a tub seems excessive anyway!!!)

To those who have had experience with Rockley, do you think if I sent an MRI copy to Nic that she would consider looking at it? It would be useful to get an expert's view on it, because whilst vets are experts in what they do on a general scale, their knowledge of navicular may not be quite so detailed!

Really appreciating all of your responses.


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## criso (21 March 2011)

Drop Nic an email, you have nothing to lose and she will tell you honestly if she thinks she can help.  You're not committing yourself to anything and at least then you'll know if it's an option.  I originally contacted her in autumn 2009 but didn't decide to send Frankie down till Feb 2010.  

Re Devil's Claw I wouldn't use it as a substitute for a joint supplement, it's more of a bute supplement in that it is supposed to act as a pain killer/anti inflammatory.  I would stick to some sort of joint supplement at the moment.


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## kaiko (21 March 2011)

No problem, i thought it was the end of the world at the time but it really wasn't.

Another thing I just remembered is we put rubber matting into her stable.  This made a difference, she had more good days with this and her warm up time seemed to decrease.

And agreed, Devil's claw wasn't a supplement, more a pain killer when i knew the ground was getting harder.  She also liked a good massage all round her fetlocks.  I used to sit on a bucket with her hoof on my knee


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## Orangehorse (21 March 2011)

I think Rockly Farm is probably the "ultimate" in barefoot management, and of course Nic has loads of experience now.

The management - diet, exercise, terrain - may not be possible for all owners due to their circumstances.  I know one endurance horse that didn't go to Rockley but another barefoot expert that had the same story - 12 months remedial farriery, injections, etc. etc. and was as lame at the end of 12 months as at the start and the vet said PTS.

After a matter of weeks barefoot it was sound and back to competition.  With this particular horse he is shod for the endurance competition season, as he couldn't manage barefoot for endurance for the high mileages and different terrain.  But his shoes are removed at the end of the season and hoof boots are used for winter exercising to keep him ticking over,and keeping his feet in good condition, and then shoes back on for the summer.


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## Fauvea (21 March 2011)

Recent research shows that heel first landing is the cause of navicular. Shoes generally cause heel first landing...that's the vicious circle.

Here is some info about navicular:
http://www.hoofrehab.com/NavicularSyndrome.htm
The whole website is a great ressource (http://www.hoofrehab.com/hoof%20articles%20by%20Pete%20Ramey.htm), this guy got back to soundness many horses that vets said they should be PTS!

The most important things when transitionning a horse to barefoot is to provide:
- a low starch and sugar diet,
- a lot of exercise (turnout, work),
- a suitable barefoot trim every 4 weeks (a lot of farriers can't do that, you might need a Jaime Jackson, Pete Ramey or KC Lapierre certified practitionner or learn to do a correct trim yourself from these people),
- a pair of well fitting hoof boots with pads.

Barefoot is not convenient, it's a long journey and you have to be on top of any issue right away (thrush, low grade laminitis...) that you might get away with shoes, but I truely believe that it's the key to long term soundness for most horses.


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## DanishWarmblood (21 March 2011)

Hi 

I have a Danish Warmblood 8 Years old 17.3hh. He went lame last August so had the vet out and had xrays. It showed that he had fractured his sidebone and has navicular Syndrome, ringbone and sheared heels. Prognosis was poor as vet said he will never be sound off of bute and will never be ridden again. The navicular bone has eaten the marrow and is just a solid bone with abrasion at the back but is not what made him lame. He came sound within 3 days of box rest and on Bute and is now completely sound to my vets amazement and i have been given the all clear to ride him. He has not had bute since August and does have some off days where he isn't lame but slightly off on the front. I hack him, school him and will be doing dressage in June. I will jump him and see how he goes as he will let me know if he is in any pain and i know that bute and box rest works to get him sound again. It is so hard not to worry about them but if they can gallop around the field (which mine does everyday) then hacking them out and doing dressage will not really be a problem. Plus you know what to look for if you think its feet are hurting. Mine also has eggbar shoes on which have been great for his sheared heels and fracture as the navicular is not what has been causing him a problem and the vet doesn't know why it doesn't hurt him as there is no marrow left.


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## tallyho! (21 March 2011)

Fauvea said:



			Recent research shows that heel first landing is the cause of navicular. Shoes generally cause heel first landing...that's the vicious circle.
		
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Really? I would check that... but I'm sure what you really meant was toe first landing.


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## merliebug (21 March 2011)

Wow, it's amazing how many people are affected by navicular. (Well, not people, but obviously horses can't type). It does seem that most people - myself included - jump to the worst possible outcome, when in fact no one knows how much these changes will affect each individual horse and what severity the changes will stop at. 

Good advice re devil's claw and joint supp, will ensure I do both in that case, not just one. He already has rubber matting in his stable which i got for that very reason, and he wears leg wraps at night when it's cold to keep the circulation going.

Thanks for the references to useful websites, I will have a good look at those when I get home. With my horse I do worry that barefoot wouldn't work, purely because with him it's mind over matter, if he thinks he's sore (as of course he will be to start with) then he'll continue to think he is. I guess it works in my favour that he's not brave or I'd never know if he was in pain!

It's so interesting hearing everyone's experiences and what does/ doesn't work for certain horses. DanishWarmBlood, it sounds like you have a similar number of structural problems with your horse as I do with mine - that's reassuring!!


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## Fauvea (21 March 2011)

tallyho! said:



			Really? I would check that... but I'm sure what you really meant was toe first landing.



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Yep, you're totally right.  Can't correct my typo now, but meant toe first landing.


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## DanishWarmblood (22 March 2011)

[/QUOTE]It's so interesting hearing everyone's experiences and what does/ doesn't work for certain horses. DanishWarmBlood, it sounds like you have a similar number of structural problems with your horse as I do with mine - that's reassuring!![/QUOTE]

Every horse is different and mine had a lot of problems structurally. I recommend having shoes if you think he will be sore and mine is now starting to have his toe shortened to try and encourage a balanced foot as he is toe landing first. People do always think the worst but the research i have done on it has been neither good or bad as no one seems to know much about it and each horse is so different as to whether they cope well or not. I rode my warmblood last night and he was absolutely fine and will take each day as it comes. If you need any advice or want to know more about what i do and what the vet and farrier have said don't hesitat to contact me.


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## merliebug (22 March 2011)

If you need any advice or want to know more about what i do and what the vet and farrier have said don't hesitat to contact me.[/QUOTE said:
			
		


			Thank you! I may well PM you. 
You're right, day by day is the best way to go.

Anna x
		
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## china (22 March 2011)

pines of rome said:



			Mine has been barefoot for 10 months but is now getting lamer, my EP says he can do no more for him, having x-rays tomorrow and leverage test, i think we will have to now look at remedial shoeing to help him, such a shame be cause outwardly his feet look good , but he has coffin joint issues as well.
		
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Im in the same boat! mine has been barefoot since october after remedial shoeing was working but he never kept the dam things on, his feet are looking fantastic but he isnt looking very sound, im going to give it a few more months and see if he settles. The farrier is reluctant to shoe him because his feet are looking so good without. 

OP- mine is a 13yr old tb who was diagnosed last august, he has been in walk work for 2 months then had the whole winter off without shoes and has now been back in work for 4 weeks, walking out inhand and on the lunge, still very light work as hes not completely sound but hopefully with time this will rectify. I would bring back into work and see where it takes you. you never know, you might get him out competing this time next year. only time will tell. im hoping mine will be sound enough to do search for a star as every year i have tried to do it something has come up! i dont care if i dont qualify but im determined to do it.


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## foxy1 (22 March 2011)

Just to say the person who mentioned barefoot horses need a specialist trim every 4 weeks..... mine and loads of other barefoot horses are almost never trimmed; once you get the diet right and with loads of work they wear down all by themselves!!


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## tallyho! (22 March 2011)

DanishWarmblood said:



			Every horse is different and mine had a lot of problems structurally. I recommend having shoes if you think he will be sore and mine is now starting to have his toe shortened to try and encourage a balanced foot as he is toe landing first. People do always think the worst but the research i have done on it has been neither good or bad as no one seems to know much about it and each horse is so different as to whether they cope well or not. I rode my warmblood last night and he was absolutely fine and will take each day as it comes. If you need any advice or want to know more about what i do and what the vet and farrier have said don't hesitat to contact me.
		
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Completely agree about the research as navicular is being dealt with in different ways in what could be different problems in that area.

Just to add experience with the remedial shoeing, we (farrier, vet and I) decided that shortening the toe worked in the short term and sorted breakover, which is cosmetic, but caused the toe to grow fast and created a wavy line growth at the coronet which proved he only put pressure on the outside walls and not the front which stressed the navicular even more as there was no support for the pedal bone at the very front. You can see the wavy line on this photo after we first pulled the shoes.







This made him short on that shoulder (a problem he still has now) as he changed his gait to compensate for the short breakover. And crucially, this contracted his heel even more.

I'm not saying barefoot is the answer, neither am I saying remedial is. Until we find out exactly why this happens (could be genetic some experts are claiming) then we can only try what is available to us.

For me, barefoot is the only way to let the foot GROW a shape that fits the horse and then if required, apply shoeing when we have a "correct" foot again. If this means, I can't ride for a year because thats how long it's going to take for a foot to grow normally, then so be it.


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## china (23 March 2011)

Having been down both routes, bare and shod, its what ever works for the horse. min had the same as tallyho, toes were taken back and he had straight bars on, this wasnt natural to him though and he kept coming up short. Then proceeded to pull a shoe off every week untill we had nothing to nail onto! The farrier is now amazed with his feet and has advised leaving him that way as if we shoe him again we will be back to square one. You dont need a specialist trimmer, i trimmer is no more qualified than a farrier. My farrier is excelent and does a fantastic job!


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## vicky_sut (23 March 2011)

Question for Tallyho,just wondering from looking at your picture where the nail holes are is the dark colour bruising?


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## criso (23 March 2011)

When he was still shod, my farrier tried shortening the toe as well and it only made him lamer.

When we took the shoes off, Frankie's feet grew down at a different angle so yes the toe is now shorter but the back of the foot developed  at the same time, it's as if the whole foot moved back. There are photos on the Rockley site if you do a search for Frankie.
That is what has impressed my farrier the most: - the change at the back of the foot and the fact he now has heels! 

Incidentally I'm another who wouldn't necessarily recommend 4 weeks trimming, Frankie's on about 6 - 8 week at the moment but that's mainly because I have to fit it with other people having their horses shod, he more or less self trims and just needs a tidy up really.  At Rockley he had minimal trimming too but it's something I would hope would be assessed on a case by case basis.


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## tallyho! (24 March 2011)

vicky_sut said:



			Question for Tallyho,just wondering from looking at your picture where the nail holes are is the dark colour bruising?
		
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No, bruising on his feet come out a pinky colour. What you see there is dead hoof, rust and dirt probably from where the nails have pulled the wall away from the live capsule. Easy to see on light coloured hooves.

I just think you need to read often and lots on this stuff yourself, don't rely solely on what the "professionals" tell you. It's going to be a steep learning curve whatever you do and it depends on the horse. I still question things like "why trim the frog?".


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## tallyho! (24 March 2011)

criso said:



			When he was still shod, my farrier tried shortening the toe as well and it only made him lamer.

When we took the shoes off, Frankie's feet grew down at a different angle so yes the toe is now shorter but the back of the foot developed  at the same time, it's as if the whole foot moved back. There are photos on the Rockley site if you do a search for Frankie.
That is what has impressed my farrier the most: - the change at the back of the foot and the fact he now has heels! 

Incidentally I'm another who wouldn't necessarily recommend 4 weeks trimming, Frankie's on about 6 - 8 week at the moment but that's mainly because I have to fit it with other people having their horses shod, he more or less self trims and just needs a tidy up really.  At Rockley he had minimal trimming too but it's something I would hope would be assessed on a case by case basis.
		
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Just looked at Frankie's blog - is this proof that nature + time = THE treatment for nav?


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## criso (24 March 2011)

tallyho! said:



			Just looked at Frankie's blog - is this proof that nature + time = THE treatment for nav?
		
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Well technically he wasn't diagnosed with Navicular though some vets would have used the term.

I would add to that, creating the right environment  to help nature work, the rehab work and environment made a difference I think, even the fact he was living out with different areas and tracks and surfaces so he was helping himself in his off time.

What I have taken from this experience is that TB feet can change and you do not have to accept long toes, thin soles, crumbly hooves and underrun heels as a genetic given, in the right environment they can change dramatically.


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## china (24 March 2011)

This was my boys feet last october when he went through an episode of pulling his remedial shoes off





and his feet 7 weeks ago, he is due another trim tuesday so you can imagine how even better they look. They look good but hes still not 100% sound.


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## superpony (25 March 2011)

One of my boys has navicular, hes sound with eggbars and still carrys on as normal, he dressages, jumps, does pc and rc. I have to be careful on hard ground and don't jump on grass in the summer but apart from that we don't have any issues.


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## tallyho! (27 March 2011)

annabel2009 said:



			One of my boys has navicular, hes sound with eggbars and still carrys on as normal, he dressages, jumps, does pc and rc. I have to be careful on hard ground and don't jump on grass in the summer but apart from that we don't have any issues.
		
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That's really good to hear and encouraging for anyone in this situation - if done well, I also think this method works and the eggbar is actually meant to support the frog and heel and help it open up done properly so you sound like you have a skilled farrier to help!!! Wish I did back when I really needed it 3 years ago...


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## Amymay (27 March 2011)

Have a chat with your farrier about using gel pads rather than the wedges. You may  find an improvement. Other than that I can only echo what others have said - ride when sound and play it by ear... 

And of course bar shoes are a must.


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## Aileen K (1 September 2013)

My 18-yr-old mare was dx'd with Navicular three years ago.  I am ready to try Tildren.  Does it work?  Did you give it IV?  Did your horse colic that day from the Tildren?  How is your horse now?    Thanks!


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## caramel (1 September 2013)

I do. I just lightly hack mine, he's semi retired but still has his moments in the field! just have to be careful. He's got a great farrier which helps no end. He enjoys the odd short hack. He's 16 now and on no medication for it.


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## cptrayes (1 September 2013)

This is a very old thread.

There is now a weight of evidence that the most effective way to treat, and cure, navicular syndrome is with a barefoot rehab.

Check out the two and a half years since this thread started on rockleyfarm.blogspot.com


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