# American School Shooting



## Fools Motto (14 December 2012)

Those poor children. Just Why?? 
A whole classroom is still missing, while 27 dead inc 18 poor little innocent ones.. 

Why are guns such a big thing in America? Surely they should be banned now??


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## Marydoll (14 December 2012)

This is heartbreaking, and so reminicent of Dunblane, it makes me feel sick watching this unfold in the news


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## Fantasy_World (14 December 2012)

I have just seen this on the news and it has deeply saddened me 
Adults I can understand, I can understand a grievance or issue that caused someone to open fire and tip over the edge.
Children though, I simply cannot get my head around at all. 
Why the kiddies, why take away all those innocent little lives


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## Fools Motto (14 December 2012)

It really is a cruel word, but this, this is just the lowest of the low.


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## tinap (14 December 2012)

Horrific


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## Ibblebibble (14 December 2012)

absolutely terrible feel so sorry for all those affected


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## PolarSkye (14 December 2012)

The right to bear arms is written into the American Constitution . . . not saying I agree with it (b/c I don't), just telling you how it is.  It originated from the rights of individual states to raise a militia before the US civil war and before the US really was united . . . and it's been contentious ever since.  It's hard to convey how deep rooted the right to bear arms is in the US . . . it's just part of life.  Police officers and security guards alike are armed . . . and there is a large proportion of the population who feels they should have the right to defend themselves against the criminal element by arming themselves . . . it's a sick, cyclical, self-fulfilling prophesy.  I will arm myself so that you can't shoot me . . . I will arm myself with a bigger, more powerful gun so that I CAN shoot you.  Sigh.

P


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## LittleBoPeep (14 December 2012)

Hearing (the normally aloof) Obama speak tonight one would hope that the gun laws in the USA will be reviewed. Im not entirely sure that this will be the case. 

May the families be comforted by the outpouring of grief and love surrounding them. As the lives of their kin have been wasted, I hope they can find peace. xx


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## Nollaig Shona (15 December 2012)

R.I.P. The poor souls 




PolarExpress said:



			The right to bear arms is written into the American Constitution . . . not saying I agree with it (b/c I don't), just telling you how it is.  It originated from the rights of individual states to raise a militia before the US civil war and before the US really was united . . . and it's been contentious ever since.  It's hard to convey how deep rooted the right to bear arms is in the US . . . it's just part of life.  Police officers and security guards alike are armed . . . and there is a large proportion of the population who feels they should have the right to defend themselves against the criminal element by arming themselves . . . it's a sick, cyclical, self-fulfilling prophesy.  I will arm myself so that you can't shoot me . . . I will arm myself with a bigger, more powerful gun so that I CAN shoot you.  Sigh.
		
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It's quite frightening how voraciously Americans are defending their right to bear arms after this horrific incident, some are claiming it was the shooter who was evil, not the guns and that he could have done just as much using knives or baseball bats.  I hope they are attempting to be ironic or sarcastic.

_IF_ gun control laws are brought in, what at the pro-gun lobby going to do, emigrate?


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## winslow (15 December 2012)

It is a horrendous situation, reports today say he may have been mentally ill. He shot his mother, took her guns (which she legally obtained) and for some reason we may never know shot 20 children (5-10yrs) and 6 adults before turning the gun on himself.
We have guns in our house, if it became illegal to own fine we would turn them in. But what about the type of people that do this do you think they would?
This is truly awful situation that should not have happened and I feel for the families involved.


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## millhouse (15 December 2012)

Absolutely terrible.  May they all rest in peace and God bless.


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## Luci07 (15 December 2012)

If you would like a greater insight, go and read Piers Morgan on twitter. Whatever you think about him he is making a lot of noise in the US about gun laws and yes I agree, people there seem to be diametrically opposed. Various awful stats coming out, such as 88 out of every 100 people own a gun in the US.

Yes the killer apparently had a mental disability. Yet his mother ( whom he murdered) had taken him for shooting lessons. He used her 5 licensed guns to murder the children.  I think the attempted focus on his mental state is somewhat misleading as this event is very sadly becoming a regular occurrence now. 

and RIP to the brave 27 year old school teacher, Victoria Soto who hid her entire class and told the gunman they had gone to the gym. He murdered her as well. RIP to all those who lost their lives and condolences to the families of those who have lost loved ones, and to the families of the survivors whose children lost their childhood innocence in one savage afternoon and will be living with the aftermath for the rest of their lives.


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## starryeyed (15 December 2012)

What a tragedy  Rest in peace to those brave, brave teachers and those poor children with their whole lives ahead of them. My heart goes out to everyone affected. It's just awful.


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## GTs (15 December 2012)

All of this took place just 2 hours from where I live. It is incredibly sad and I do not think any of us can get our minds around the events. Many people outside the US do not understand our gun laws or previous gun control measures put in place. We are not opposed to creating laws that save needless loss of life, however we don't believe you can legislative out crazy. If it wasn't guns, would it have been a bomb? Arson? Or?


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## Luci07 (15 December 2012)

What previous controls? Genuine question? The son used his mothers 5 legal weapons to murder. He had legal training. It could well be argued that knives, arson etc could " possibly" cause fewer deaths just due to timescales. Bombs are far harder to get hold of, particularly with the constant vigileance over terrorisim. The US has a scary statistic of owning between 30-35% percent of the worlds handguns for 5% of the population with an estimated 88 out of 100 people on average owning a gun.  It is almost becoming an expected news item now...another gun massacre. "Can't legislate against crazy" no you can't, but you can make it a lot harder to give them the weapons. 

I don't know all the answers, I do understand it is a very emotive area and I was quite amazed when I actually started to look into this ( oh boy do emotions run high on this ). I get quite peed off when I have American friends attempting to give me a history lesson over the rights and wrongs of the dreadful English over the years and am most certainly not attempting to push my own views onto anyone.

But, as an outsider, how can a country which sets itself up as a senior statesman have such laws still in place? 

I would very much like to hear your perspective and views to give me a better understanding.


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## Dizzydancer (15 December 2012)

Massive respect to the teacher who hid her class. Above and beyond- 
god bless them all r.i.p x


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## angrovestud (16 December 2012)

So horrific I would like to see a link between medical records and the issue of a gun licence, both here and the US anyone with a known problem of either dependance on any meds illegal or other wise and alchol as well should never be issued with a gun licence


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## GTs (16 December 2012)

Previous controls like required classes, waiting periods for guns and background checks. My wife is a concealed weapons carrier - it's no easy task to get one. You can state bombs are harder to get ahold off, but that's not true. You can buy propane at any gas station, and look at Oklahoma City bombing. It isn't hard and can be devistating. 

I want my country to be safe I just don't think it will be with stricter  gun laws! Look at the massacre in Sweden......


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## Mince Pie (16 December 2012)

Norway.


The difference being is how many "person shoots up school/tech/cinema" incidents do you hear about from the US compared to UK or Europe...?


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## quirky (16 December 2012)

GTs said:



			I want my country to be safe I just don't think it will be with stricter  gun laws! Look at the massacre in Sweden......
		
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They had a table of the worst classroom killings by gun in the paper yesterday, 50% of them were in America. I think that speaks volumes. 
Utoya (Norway) wasn't one of them as they weren't in a school.

I am incredulous that people can go round arming themselves legally. I can't see any positives in it at all and am thankful that the UK's gun laws were tightened up after the Dunblane tragedy.


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## Alec Swan (16 December 2012)

As this truly hideous and irrational event is still fresh in our minds,  reaching rational and workable answers may not be possible.

My OH tried to post a quote from the wonderful,  and angry and saddened Morgan Freeman,  who had what may have been a potential answer as to the apparently unfathomable question "Why".  The post wouldn't leave her ipod and arrive with me!!

The gist of his argument was this;

The American media (he mentioned Fox News,  but there were others,  and his comments would apply equally to the UK),  who in clamouring for viewing figures always trip over themselves,  and each other,  in an effort to release what would seem to be,  the most solicitous news programmes,  and they are in fact,  fostering those who wish to leave this life in a blaze of glory,  and I'm tempted to agree with him.

Consider this,  we all know the name of the murderer,  but do we know the names of any of his victims?  Very few of us do,  I suspect.  All that we're doing with this coverage is prepping the next mass killer.

To support his argument,  the bulk of those who commit these atrocities,  end up topping themselves,  and as there seems to be little thought given to escape,  their heightened sense of self worth is being,  or would be,  bolstered by press coverage.  

I watched Obama last night,  and he seemed genuinely distressed as are the rest of mankind.  His immediate reaction,  understandably,  was that there needs to be tighter control of firearms licensing.  I remember the events at Dunblane,  and the immediate reaction was for a campaign to start which would effectively ban the ownership of handguns.  It was a successful campaign and now handguns are no longer allowed to be legally kept by the general public,  here in the UK.  When the next atrocity happens here,  then the person involved will probably use a shot gun.  Banning handguns hasn't removed the risk of another such occurrence.  I'd also point out that tightening the legislation surrounding firearms ownership wouldn't have prevented this tragedy,  the guns were owned by his mother,  and he had access to them.

If a child is murdered by someone with a cricket bat,  do we ban cricket?  If a classroom filled with children was doused in petrol,  and set alight,  would be ban petrol sales?

The knee jerk reactions are nothing but a salve to those who demand action.  They generally achieve nothing.  I wish that it wasn't so,  but it is,  sadly.

I wish that I had answers,  but I don't believe that they're there to be found.

I was staggered at the display of dignity from the guy (a parent),  who whilst in the depths of shock, grief and despair,  thought to offer his condolences to the family of the murderer.  How he managed it,  I just don't know.

RIP little ones.

Alec.


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## Fantasy_World (16 December 2012)

I_shot_Santa said:



			As this truly hideous and irrational event is still fresh in our minds,  reaching rational and workable answers may not be possible.

My OH tried to post a quote from the wonderful,  and angry and saddened Morgan Freeman,  who had what may have been a potential answer as to the apparently unfathomable question "Why".  The post wouldn't leave her ipod and arrive with me!!

The gist of his argument was this;

The American media (he mentioned Fox News,  but there were others,  and his comments would apply equally to the UK),  who in clamouring for viewing figures always trip over themselves,  and each other,  in an effort to release what would seem to be,  the most solicitous news programmes,  and they are in fact,  fostering those who wish to leave this life in a blaze of glory,  and I'm tempted to agree with him.

Consider this,  we all know the name of the murderer,  but do we know the names of any of his victims?  Very few of us do,  I suspect.  All that we're doing with this coverage is prepping the next mass killer.

To support his argument,  the bulk of those who commit these atrocities,  end up topping themselves,  and as there seems to be little thought given to escape,  their heightened sense of self worth is being,  or would be,  bolstered by press coverage.  

I watched Obama last night,  and he seemed genuinely distressed as are the rest of mankind.  His immediate reaction,  understandably,  was that there needs to be tighter control of firearms licensing.  I remember the events at Dunblane,  and the immediate reaction was for a campaign to start which would effectively ban the ownership of handguns.  It was a successful campaign and now handguns are no longer allowed to be legally kept by the general public,  here in the UK.  When the next atrocity happens here,  then the person involved will probably use a shot gun.  Banning handguns hasn't removed the risk of another such occurrence.  I'd also point out that tightening the legislation surrounding firearms ownership wouldn't have prevented this tragedy,  the guns were owned by his mother,  and he had access to them.

If a child is murdered by someone with a cricket bat,  do we ban cricket?  If a classroom filled with children was doused in petrol,  and set alight,  would be ban petrol sales?

The knee jerk reactions are nothing but a salve to those who demand action.  They generally achieve nothing.  I wish that it wasn't so,  but it is,  sadly.

I wish that I had answers,  but I don't believe that they're there to be found.

I was staggered at the display of dignity from the guy (a parent),  who whilst in the depths of shock, grief and despair,  thought to offer his condolences to the family of the murderer.  How he managed it,  I just don't know.

RIP little ones.

Alec.
		
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Very well said x


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## La Fiaba (16 December 2012)

I don't think reactions to this tragedy are 'knee jerk', because this is not the first time something like this has happened, or the second, or the third.... 

That young man killed almost 30 people in 2 minutes, could you do that with a cricket bat? Yes, he *could* have used a bomb, or knives or set fire to the place, but he didn't, and if it is 'just as easy' to commit these kind of crimes with these other weapons, why don't they? Over 10,000 people killed by guns in the states last year, if I lived there I would be campaigning for tighter gun laws for sure. 

RIP dear children and your brave teachers xxx


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## fburton (16 December 2012)

Imo, it's not just gun ownership and the availability of guns that is to blame for the high rate of such shootings in the US; it's also the _culture_ which normalizes their use in a variety of imagined situations. An obvious sign of this is the prominent role that gun have in many movies and the fact they are given pride of place on movie posters and DVD artwork. (For examples, see http://www.imfdb.org/wiki/Main_Page.) Isn't it a little unhealthy (and distasteful) to revel in guns for their supposed empowering aspects or for their own sake?


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## Luci07 (16 December 2012)

Alec, normally I agree with what you say but not in this case. It is not a knee jerk reaction. This entire debate is extremely hot and emotive in the US and these discussions have been going on for a while. Rational people are talking about control not outright ban. Lets not forget that the mother had 5 guns. The murderer used his mothers bush assault rifle (assault rifle WHAT????). Some of the children had up to 11 bullets in them. Here are some facts. US has some 30-35% of the worlds total handguns and 5% of the population.  It is sadly becoming almost expected for yet another US massacre. Norway was mentioned. ( well it was when the next poster corrected the poster) part of the reason ( this was in the summing up during the trial ) that police and authorities took so long to react was that this was such an unusual event.

I fully agree that controls won't stop murderers who are really hell bent but i hope that the US make it far tougher for this dreadful people to get these weapons in the first place.


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## Big Ben (16 December 2012)

I do not, can not grasp the sense in the American love affair with guns, and their much lauded right to bear arms, especially when it interferes with the rights of 22 innocent children to grow up, and a whole community to live a life of any normality going onwards.

When we lived in the UK, both as town dwellers, and out on the farm, I saw no need to own a gun, didn't need more than an air rifle to pot a few pigeons in the barn.

Now we live in the wilds in Canada, and as a family we own a cabinet full of guns, and I have used them all. We have predators, pests, and unwanted visitors, I feel better owning a gun. We live far enough from the vet that we have also used the guns to euthanize injured animals. When we wanted to buy a gun we had to do a safety course and then pass an exam that gave us a safety certificate. Then we applied to the RCMP for a gun licence, which means form filling,  sending in the form, there is a minimum months processing time, as a cooling off period, and you have to provide 2 references, and those people are contacted and interviewed about your state of mind, and your suitability to own a weapon. Once you get your Possession and Acquisition  Licence (PAL) you are then free to go shopping, I have a range of long guns I can buy, anything from the little .22 that carry for pest control, up to a gun that would stop a bear if needed.

The PAL does not allow me to buy a handgun, nor a automatic or semi automatic rifle, for those you have to take a further test, and you have very strict rules and regulations to follow, for instance you can only legally carry your hand gun on the way to and home from a registered gun range, and that is the only place you are allowed to shoot it. 

So with my licence I have the right to buy and own as many guns as I want, as do all my neighbors who have licences, and most everyone does. I am well aware that there are 100's of guns kept in houses in this area, but no one brags about it, no one yells about their rights, the street signs and empty houses are not shot up. I hear many shots during hunting season, and some during off season. There is a steady crack of .22 fire during the summer as the small pests are tracked down, but you don't, well I don't feel scared.

We quietly get on with our lives, don't shout about it, and it is a non issue.


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## Alec Swan (16 December 2012)

When I say that the current reaction is a knee jerk,  I mean that little is said or heard about the need for legislation,  until there is an event such as this,  then Obama (or who ever),  leaps up and says "We need legislation".  If you'll forgive the mixed metaphors here,  it is an immediate reaction,  and it also smacks of horses and stable doors.

"The right to bear arms" brigade will win the day.  You see if I'm not right.  They will prevaricate and filibuster,  until this tragedy has left our forethoughts,  and there will be more pressing issues for Congress to deal with,  and who knows,  perhaps rightly.  

I'm all for any country,  America included,  who take a pride in their history,  but we have to remember that the good ol' boys of the 18th. & 19th. centuries,  lived in a different world.  This is today,  the right to bear arms that applied and perhaps correctly,  100 years ago,  doesn't apply today.  They didn't have machine pistols then,  and a firearm (a hand gun,  anyway)  was for self defence.  There are quoted levels in excess of 10.000 people,  in America,  annually who are killed with guns,  and the bulk of those weapons,  are hand guns.

The murderer's mother owned an assault rifle.......... FFS,  why did she need it,  and even given that she did,  would she have actually known how to use it?  

America is a vast country,  and such a huge and sweeping change in legislation,  would cost billions,  and with no will for any eventual change,  then we'll just have to sit back and watch.  I'm not supporting them,  and no,  I don't like it either.

fburton and luci07,  I agree with you both,  but thinking that there will be,  or campaigning for change,  in my view,  is whistling into the wind.

Alec.


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## SusannaF (16 December 2012)

Nobody needs a semi-automatic.

It also sounds like his mother was struggling to cope with a mentally ill son. The US doesn't have much of a social safety net for those who find themselves in that situation, and state mental institutions are vanishing fast. 

http://gawker.com/5968818/i-am-adam-lanzas-mother


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## Luci07 (16 December 2012)

I_shot_Santa said:



			When I say that the current reaction is a knee jerk,  I mean that little is said or heard about the need for legislation,  until there is an event such as this,  then Obama (or who ever),  leaps up and says "We need legislation".  If you'll forgive the mixed metaphors here,  it is an immediate reaction,  and it also smacks of horses and stable 

fburton and luci07,  I agree with you both,  but thinking that there will be,  or campaigning for change,  in my view,  is whistling into the wind.

Alec.
		
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but someone has to stand up and make a change?

You could have said about another formally approved institution, which supported the economy and way of life for huge numbers of people. That was changed, that was slavery! Granted, extreme example but change can happen.

I actually think the volume in the US is increasing and while many keep trying to bury it, these seems to be a real groundswell of opinion changing...


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## SusannaF (16 December 2012)

Sadly the Morgan Freeman "letter" is a hoax.

He never wrote or said that. 


http://now.msn.com/morgan-freeman-newtown-statement-is-a-hoax


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## Alec Swan (16 December 2012)

SusannaF said:



			Sadly the Morgan Freeman "letter" is a hoax.

.......
		
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That's a pity,  and thank you for the correction.  None the less,  I agree with the sentiments,  who ever it was!

Alec.


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## RutlandH2O (16 December 2012)

I am American and I am horrified! In all the years I lived there (close to 50) none of my friends or family owned guns or had anything to do with them. It was a non-issue. It has been only since I have lived abroad that this whole "right to bear arms" rubbish has entered my psyche, and I am ashamed to call myself American. Twenty babies have been ripped from their parents' arms, and seven good, decent, brave adults were gunned down trying to protect them. The NRA, the media, the religious right (yes, you read that correctly), the red-necks, the hunting (shooting) lobby have much for which to answer. If I hear one more remark along the lines that people, not guns, kill, I'll scream! Now I am aware of the culture of guns in the US, something that never touched my life when I lived there. In the last 48 hours, there was an incident in California where some lunatic fired 50 rounds in a car park, 2 shooting incidents in Alabama, and one in Oklahoma. Enough is enough!


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## Alec Swan (16 December 2012)

Luci07 said:



			.......

I actually think the volume in the US is increasing and while many keep trying to bury it, these seems to be a real groundswell of opinion changing...
		
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RutlandH2O said:



			.......

... Enough is enough!
		
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I suspect Luci07 that you may well have struck the right note there,  BUT it will need a groundswell of gargantuan public opinion,  for there to be change.

A short story for you;  A friend of mine,  a Brit went to visit his bother in the States.  His brother took him to meet a neighbouring family;  a family with several young children.  The conversation got around to firearms,  a common interest amongst the men present,  and would my mate like to look at the hosts firearm collection?

Of course he would.  He was handed a Glock,  with the advice,  "Be careful,  it's loaded".  

How has such a culture developed,  HOW? 

Change will only come about,  by common consent.

Alec.


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## SusannaF (16 December 2012)

I_shot_Santa said:



			I suspect Luci07 that you may well have struck the right note there,  BUT it will need a groundswell of gargantuan public opinion,  for there to be change.

A short story for you;  A friend of mine,  a Brit went to visit his bother in the States.  His brother took him to meet a neighbouring family;  a family with several young children.  The conversation got around to firearms,  a common interest amongst the men present,  and would my mate like to look at the hosts firearm collection?

Of course he would.  He was handed a Glock,  with the advice,  "Be careful,  it's loaded".  

How has such a culture developed,  HOW? 

Change will only come about,  by common consent.

Alec.
		
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Here's a long form piece on the politics of it:

http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2012/04/23/120423fa_fact_lepore

When I graduated I wanted to do a PhD on US gun culture (couldn't find any profs to sponsor me - they thought it was too trendy). I doubt any of these organisations would let me near them to ask questions - I'd be shouted out as a liberal, even if I were just trying to observe and understand.


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## Caol Ila (16 December 2012)

I cynically agree with Alec on this one.  I'm an American expat, now living in Britain, and I was in high school in Colorado when the Columbine shooting happened and the same noises were made then, like they are every time this happens.  I sadly don't hold out any hope that Americans are going to pull their fingers out of their collective butts and take any decisive actions with regards to decreasing the availability of guns or, for that matter, increasing the availability of mental health services (that would involve taxing people and making healthcare cheaper and more affordable for everyone, which is a profoundly unAmerican and socialist idea). It's not just down to the NRA and the gun lobby. It's the the beliefs of a lot of the general population. Far too many people, average citizens, honest-to-God believe that they are better off with *more* guns and they argue that if someone in this school (or any other site where such a massacre occurred, like the CO movie theatre) had a gun, it wouldn't have happened. 

I've seen people compare it to the action Brits took to ban handguns after Dunblane.  But here, there was the collective will to do it.  British people aren't blinded by a collective love affair with firearms and the notions of "freedom" that having unfettered access to them seems to represent. Any attempt to pass legislation regulating gun ownership causes people to go apoplectic because they see it as an attack by the government on freedom (however, if the government fancies passing legislation, i.e. the Patriot Act, that throws away habeas corpus, which is also a Constitutional right, that's okay).

After the Norway thing, a Fox news pundit said something to the effect of, "Norway isn't a democracy because not even the police carry guns."  Yeah.  That's the problem, right there.  Concepts like "freedom" and "democracy" are completely entangled with firearms ownership.  It's nuts.  

Maybe my fellow countrymen will prove me wrong.  I hope so, but I'm not remotely optimistic.


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## RutlandH2O (16 December 2012)

Caol Ila said:



			I've seen people compare it to the action Brits took to ban handguns after Dunblane.  But here, there was the collective will to do it.  British people aren't blinded by a collective love affair with firearms and the notions of "freedom" that having unfettered access to them seems to represent. Any attempt to pass legislation regulating gun ownership causes people to go apoplectic because they see it as an attack by the government on freedom (however, if the government fancies passing legislation, i.e. the Patriot Act, that throws away habeas corpus, which is also a Constitutional right, that's okay).

This^^^^

After the Norway thing, a Fox news pundit said something to the effect of, "Norway isn't a democracy because not even the police carry guns."  Yeah.  That's the problem, right there.  Concepts like "freedom" and "democracy" are completely entangled with firearms ownership.  It's nuts. 

Remember the source, Fox News. 

Maybe my fellow countrymen will prove me wrong.  I hope so, but I'm not remotely optimistic.
		
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Nor am I.


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## Caol Ila (16 December 2012)

RutlandH2O said:



			Remember the source, Fox News
		
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Aye!  What's terrifying is that there are a lot of people in the United States who don't think Fox just makes ***** up.  But I used that snippet as an illustration of how deeply and indeed, intransigently, gun ownership is intertwined with what people think is "freedom."


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## Luci07 (16 December 2012)

Caol Ila said:



			I cynically agree with Alec on this one.  I'm an American expat, now living in Britain, and I was in high school in Colorado when the Columbine shooting happened and the same noises were made then, like they are every time this happens.  I sadly don't hold out any hope that Americans are going to pull their fingers out of their collective butts and take any decisive actions with regards to decreasing the availability of guns or, for that matter, increasing the availability of mental health services (that would involve taxing people and making healthcare cheaper and more affordable for everyone, which is a profoundly unAmerican and socialist idea). It's not just down to the NRA and the gun lobby. It's the the beliefs of a lot of the general population. Far too many people, average citizens, honest-to-God believe that they are better off with *more* guns and they argue that if someone in this school (or any other site where such a massacre occurred, like the CO movie theatre) had a gun, it wouldn't have happened. 

I've seen people compare it to the action Brits took to ban handguns after Dunblane.  But here, there was the collective will to do it.  British people aren't blinded by a collective love affair with firearms and the notions of "freedom" that having unfettered access to them seems to represent. Any attempt to pass legislation regulating gun ownership causes people to go apoplectic because they see it as an attack by the government on freedom (however, if the government fancies passing legislation, i.e. the Patriot Act, that throws away habeas corpus, which is also a Constitutional right, that's okay).

After the Norway thing, a Fox news pundit said something to the effect of, "Norway isn't a democracy because not even the police carry guns."  Yeah.  That's the problem, right there.  Concepts like "freedom" and "democracy" are completely entangled with firearms ownership.  It's nuts.  

Maybe my fellow countrymen will prove me wrong.  I hope so, but I'm not remotely optimistic.
		
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But thank you for explaining some of the culture behind this. I follow Piers Morgan on twitter who is obviously very anti guns. OMG does he have some truly bizarre and awful people tweeting at him, which he is quite happy to RT so everyone can see what idiots these people are. An awful lot revert to " if American didnt have guns, He (Piers) would be speaking German now." I did bite on that point but that particular tweeter didnt respond!  obviously lacks a grasp of common history..

Well I am glad that my American friends don't seem to share these views we keep see being aired


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## RutlandH2O (16 December 2012)

Caol Ila said:



			Aye!  What's terrifying is that there are a lot of people in the United States who don't think Fox just makes ***** up.  But I used that snippet as an illustration of how deeply and indeed, intransigently, gun ownership is intertwined with what people think is "freedom."
		
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You've hit it square on the head!!! Very well written. Thank you.


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## RutlandH2O (16 December 2012)

Latest news: a Roman Catholic church in Newtown, Connecticut, had to be evacuated during noon mass due to an anonymous phone threat. An unidentified man called the rectory and threatened to "kill everyone." He then said "my friend didn't finish the job." State police and SWAT team members surrounded the church.


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## case895 (16 December 2012)

When the US 2nd amendment was written, the prevailing firearms technology was muzzle loading flintlock muskets. I do not think the Founding Fathers had semi automatic rifles in mind. I received my shotgun and firearms certificates through yesterday and had to provide referees, they spoke to my GP, checked my land and the FAC needed a valid reason (just wanting one or a 250 year old piece of paper not being valid reasons). I also have to demonstrate that only I the certificate holder can access my rifle safe.


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## Orangehorse (17 December 2012)

There was an interesting interview with a USA Congresswoman, whose husband had been killed and son seriously injured by a random gunman, who shot them down when they alighted from a train, I don't know if anyone else was hurt.  It was random, he wasn't targetting them in particular.

She got elected and one of her aims is to get the gun laws altered.  One thing she said was that in the UK we have the NHS and mental health issues are reasonably easy to spot and get treatment, whereas in the USA somepeople have little or no access to help. Invariably these random killers do have mental health problems (otherwise called nutters) by definitition.  It is obviously possible for such people to get a gun licence in the UK, but much, much harder.

However, the whole situation is complicated by the fact that the guns belonged to the mother.  

Just so sad, no explanation.


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## BBH (17 December 2012)

I don't think this has anything to do with guns directly, goodness knows anything is dangerous in the wrong hands, cars, axe's, lawn mowers etc etc. Its all about using things in the correct way.

My thoughts are that people need to get on board with mental illness issues and parents need to stop being in denial that there is something wrong with their little darlings and get the appropriate treatment even if that means sectioning them.  For a mother to have guns available to someone recognised as having problems defies belief.  

America, like here, because lets face it we have psychopaths on the loose, needs to address some of these weird cult, thinking type things I believe the mother had some weird beliefs about Armageddon and get to grips with mental health.

In the Victorian era people were placed in Sanatoriums because they didn't have the wherewithal to know how to treat patients but these days we have more knowledge but need to invest in treatments.

Everyone always decries these acts but they will keep happening unless something radical is done.

The events in Newtown are about as distressing as I have ever seen, those beautiful children and heroic teachers wiped out is awful beyond belief.


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## CorvusCorax (17 December 2012)

tescoexpress said:



			When the US 2nd amendment was written, the prevailing firearms technology was muzzle loading flintlock muskets. I do not think the Founding Fathers had semi automatic rifles in mind. I received my shotgun and firearms certificates through yesterday and had to provide referees, they spoke to my GP, checked my land and the FAC needed a valid reason (just wanting one or a 250 year old piece of paper not being valid reasons). I also have to demonstrate that only I the certificate holder can access my rifle safe.
		
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Exactly, and militias were roaming the land. A semi-automatic rifle can kill a lot more people than a shotgun or a rifle in one fell swoop and you don't have to be skilled to use one.

Another issue is that you can walk into a gun show, pay some money and carry out an assault rifle with no background checks.

For those who have not, please look out a short documentary called Living For 32, and consider supporting the Brady campaign. They don't want to 'take people's stuff away', they want stricter controls on who can buy stuff in the first place.


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## case895 (17 December 2012)

CaveCanem said:



			A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed. well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.xactly, and militias were roaming the land. A semi-automatic rifle can kill a lot more people than a shotgun or a rifle in one fell swoop and you don't have to be skilled to use one.

Another issue is that you can walk into a gun show, pay some money and carry out an assault rifle with no background checks.

For those who have not, please look out a short documentary called Living For 32, and consider supporting the Brady campaign. They don't want to 'take people's stuff away', they want stricter controls on who can buy stuff in the first place.
		
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The second amendment can be interpreted as saying you need to belong to a militia to possess and to bear Arms. The equivalent to the militias nowadays would be law enforcement agencies, the military, military reserve and National Guard. So, it could be interpreted that there is no right for private individuals to own arms. 

As an aside, when I was at school, I was in our cadet force and had ready unsupervised access to the armoury and arsenal. We had sniper rifles and sever light machine guns.


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## combat_claire (17 December 2012)

angrovestud said:



			So horrific I would like to see a link between medical records and the issue of a gun licence, both here and the US anyone with a known problem of either dependance on any meds illegal or other wise and alchol as well should never be issued with a gun licence
		
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This was debated recently in the UK. Personally I am against the medical records being linked to records of gun ownership. Do you seriously think if that was the case then a gamekeeper or anyone else relying on their guns for their livelihood and suffering from depression or such like would consult medical professionals if there was a chance of having his guns taken away.


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## Wundahorse (17 December 2012)

It is a very sad fact that the level of disturbance which precipitated the offenders actions was probably well under the radar before preventative action could be taken.Often these perpetrators rarely reveal their underlying thoughts,impulses and plans as they tend to be socially isolated and therefore not in contact with any professional who may be able to appraise that persons mental health and form an assessment of the risk they present to others.Sometimes there are simmering resentments and angst which can continue for years until for some reason they suddenly boil over into catastrophes. also they may not actually fulfill the criteria for a mental health diagnosis and treatment,particularly in the case of Personality Disorder and psychopathy.Usually there people harbor hatred towards certain people for various reasons and the ultimate act is revenge.Killing helpless children is the single,most cruel and dreadful act which the perpetrator uses to gratify hatred against the people they despise.This is the method which hurts adults the most,such as what happened in Dunblane.Unfortunately most of these perpetrators kill themselves as the last act of vengeance thus there is very little valid research into the mental health of these individuals,only retrospective case studies.One common theme is that these killers are invariably socially isolated.Often they are unknown to services and their intent then cannot be predicted.I can only guess that in this latest case,the family dynamics appears to be dysfunctional,but more will be revealed as more information comes to light.
RIP the poor victims of yet another atrocity.


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## GTs (17 December 2012)

combat_claire said:



			This was debated recently in the UK. Personally I am against the medical records being linked to records of gun ownership. Do you seriously think if that was the case then a gamekeeper or anyone else relying on their guns for their livelihood and suffering from depression or such like would consult medical professionals if there was a chance of having his guns taken away.
		
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But what about pilots - probably the largest group who doesn't go to the doctor because of concerns over their livelihood.


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## Big Ben (17 December 2012)

CaveCanem said:



			They don't want to 'take people's stuff away', they want stricter controls on who can buy stuff in the first place.
		
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Gets my vote, to a point, I do want to take away assault rifle's, but the biggest issue is making sure that there is some sort of screening for gun owners.

No one has an issue that you need to take a test and have a licence to handle that other deadly weapon, a vehicle, why should a gun be different.


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## Luci07 (17 December 2012)

BBH said:



			I don't think this has anything to do with guns directly, goodness knows anything is dangerous in the wrong hands, cars, axe's, lawn mowers etc etc. Its all about using things in the correct way.

My thoughts are that people need to get on board with mental illness issues and parents need to stop being in denial that there is something wrong with their little darlings and get the appropriate treatment even if that means sectioning them.  For a mother to have guns available to someone recognised as having problems defies belief.  

America, like here, because lets face it we have psychopaths on the loose, needs to address some of these weird cult, thinking type things I believe the mother had some weird beliefs about Armageddon and get to grips with mental health.

In the Victorian era people were placed in Sanatoriums because they didn't have the wherewithal to know how to treat patients but these days we have more knowledge but need to invest in treatments.

Everyone always decries these acts but they will keep happening unless something radical is done.

The events in Newtown are about as distressing as I have ever seen, those beautiful children and heroic teachers wiped out is awful beyond belief.
		
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There is a eye opening story which I cannot now find the link to but it is written by the mother of a seriously disturbed 13 year old in the US. Heartbreaking as she recognises his condition, she deals with it as best she can but had no support..she was advised to try have her son arrested for a crime as that was the only way he would be acknowledged by the system.  I starts " I am the mother of .." Read it..


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## CorvusCorax (17 December 2012)

BBH said:



			I don't think this has anything to do with guns directly, goodness knows anything is dangerous in the wrong hands, cars, axe's, lawn mowers etc etc. Its all about using things in the correct way.
		
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You get a semi-automatic firearm, you hold the trigger down, you spray, you can kill a whole room full of people. You can't do that with any of the other items you mention. WHY do people need these types of weapons if they are not in the military.


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## Caol Ila (17 December 2012)

The purpose of a semi-automatic gun, when used "correctly," is to kill a lot of people.  The purpose of a car, a lawn mower, or a rock, isn't.  In any case, it takes more training and paperwork to own and drive a car in the US than it does to have a gun.  

There is also no question that mental health care -- healthcare in general really -- in the United States SUCKS.  Don't get me started.  

To go slightly off-topic, but needs must: I did a PhD on Victorian psychiatry and just to be horribly pedantic, they didn't put people in asylums (Sanatoriums??) because "they didn't have the wherewithal to know how to treat patients," but rather because they had very clearly stated views regarding the causes and treatments of insanity and believed the best possible treatment available was in a purpose-built lunatic asylum.  There was a "care-in-the-community" system in Scotland, which they called boarding-out, and archives are filled with writings about how great it is when it works, but how it can also be really crap.  Victorian psychiatrists did not believe at all that restraint was a remotely okay form of treatment, and when they found that people who were getting money from the local parochial board to care for their insane relatives were tying said insane relatives out in the shed and leaving them mostly naked, they were not happy.  

Anyway, large-scale institutional care for the mentally ill lasted well beyond the Victorian era.  In the US, it was slowly decreasing but still common until the 1980s, when the Reagan administration all but killed it.


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## case895 (17 December 2012)

QUOTE=CaveCanem;11356740]You get a semi-automatic firearm, you hold the trigger down, you spray, you can kill a whole room full of people. You can't do that with any of the other items you mention. WHY do people need these types of weapons if they are not in the military.[/QUOTE]

Wrong. That is an automatic weapon.Semi-auto means you have to pull the trigger for each shot, but it reloads itself using either gas or recoil.


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## CorvusCorax (17 December 2012)

Okie dokie. Never used one!! 

I see a gun shop owner on the news saying that Monday was his busiest day in 20 years.
Hmm, am I wrong to read people are thinking 'Obama's gonna take all our guns away'.......


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## Mogg (17 December 2012)

what an utterly tragic event, but i fear it wont be the last.  i realise that controlling gun ownership is a mammoth task and even if it happened there's still be 'illegal' guns around, after all there are hand guns and assault weapons used by criminals in the UK despite all our laws.

Other than the actual act for which we will probably never know the real reason, what iv hated was the media mad rush to get the story out there asap, before any facts were verified. The initial newsflashes said that there had been a shooting and 36 children had been killed as well as teachers including his mother, and the boys father at his home. the 'shooters' name was released based on ID they'd found on his body, only to be retracted later when it was realised he was carrying his brothers id.  Then the body count changed, then it was his mother not his father dead in the home....
i know they report on breaking stories but  i cant imagine how distressing it must have been for families hearing about it on the news.  The older brother lost his mother and brother and possibly thought his father was also dead, and had his name spread world wide as a mass killer and heard it all on the news.
The families and community will recover, and i hope the media give then the time and space to heal.

Three things i do struggle to understand....if the shooter was mentally ill then why would his mother introduce him to guns and leave them where he could access them?
a Republican pro-gun guy declared that if the head teacher had been carrying a gun then she maybe could have stopped his rampage by killing him first.  Do Americans seriously want teachers in a primary school, or any school for that matter, to walk around armed??  Iirc the same guy said a similar thing after the cinema shooting a couple of months ago....a shootout in a darkened cinema? Really??
Why is there the need for anyone outside of law enforcement or the military to have a semi automatic assault weapon. 

I admit to not understanding the attraction of guns, nor the 'right to bear arms' mentality.  And i struggle to understand anyone who could look at the picturs of those children and teachers who lost their lives and declare that the answer is 'more gun ownership'.

Finally, whilst not detracting at all from the loss suffered by the families and friends, it was briefly mentioned on the news today that 10 Afghan children, ages 9 -11 were killed by a mine/i.e.d whilst collecting firewood.  Are their lives worth less than the American children? going by the media coverage given to both events then yes. and i find that very very sad indeed.


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## fburton (18 December 2012)

Mogg said:



			Finally, whilst not detracting at all from the loss suffered by the families and friends, it was briefly mentioned on the news today that 10 Afghan children, ages 9 -11 were killed by a mine/i.e.d whilst collecting firewood.  Are their lives worth less than the American children? going by the media coverage given to both events then yes. and i find that very very sad indeed.
		
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Coincidentally, I have just finished reading the following piece which makes the same point. More violence, more disregard for human life, more love of killing machines.

http://www.monbiot.com/2012/12/17/&#8216;bug-splats&#8217;/

"These children are just as important, just as real, just as deserving of the world&#8217;s concern."

I think this is a flaw in Monbiot's argument. These children are clearly (and understandably) not as important to/as Americans.


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## Caol Ila (18 December 2012)

Well said, Mogg.  But didn't you know that America is the best country in the world and its citizens are far more important than a bunch of Afghans?

The American exceptionalism mentality is another stick in the mud.  People will not examine what other countries with smaller gun death rates (so, in short the rest of the world, except for places actually having civil wars) have done because "No other country has the freedoms that we have here in the United States."  The US is clearly the best.

*sigh*


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## RutlandH2O (18 December 2012)

I've just read a news item on Google News US, stating that sales of assault rifles, like the one used in the Newtown massacre, have vastly increased since the tragic event. Apparently, thousands of people are stocking up in advance of possible new legislation banning those weapons. This is the mind-set of a substantial proportion of the American population. The NRA should be so proud. Their silence is deafening and speaks volumes!


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## Mike007 (18 December 2012)

tescoexpress said:



			QUOTE=CaveCanem;11356740]You get a semi-automatic firearm, you hold the trigger down, you spray, you can kill a whole room full of people. You can't do that with any of the other items you mention. WHY do people need these types of weapons if they are not in the military.
		
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Wrong. That is an automatic weapon.Semi-auto means you have to pull the trigger for each shot, but it reloads itself using either gas or recoil.[/QUOTE]

They are also incredibly easy to turn into fully automatic. The old "SLR" could become fully automatic with a strategicly placed machstick!


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## Isabeau (19 December 2012)

Caol Ila said:



			I cynically agree with Alec on this one.  I'm an American expat, now living in Britain, and I was in high school in Colorado when the Columbine shooting happened and the same noises were made then, like they are every time this happens.  I sadly don't hold out any hope that Americans are going to pull their fingers out of their collective butts and take any decisive actions with regards to decreasing the availability of guns or, for that matter, increasing the availability of mental health services (that would involve taxing people and making healthcare cheaper and more affordable for everyone, which is a profoundly unAmerican and socialist idea). It's not just down to the NRA and the gun lobby. It's the the beliefs of a lot of the general population. Far too many people, average citizens, honest-to-God believe that they are better off with *more* guns and they argue that if someone in this school (or any other site where such a massacre occurred, like the CO movie theatre) had a gun, it wouldn't have happened. 

I've seen people compare it to the action Brits took to ban handguns after Dunblane.  But here, there was the collective will to do it.  British people aren't blinded by a collective love affair with firearms and the notions of "freedom" that having unfettered access to them seems to represent. Any attempt to pass legislation regulating gun ownership causes people to go apoplectic because they see it as an attack by the government on freedom (however, if the government fancies passing legislation, i.e. the Patriot Act, that throws away habeas corpus, which is also a Constitutional right, that's okay).

After the Norway thing, a Fox news pundit said something to the effect of, "Norway isn't a democracy because not even the police carry guns."  Yeah.  That's the problem, right there.  Concepts like "freedom" and "democracy" are completely entangled with firearms ownership.  It's nuts.  

Maybe my fellow countrymen will prove me wrong.  I hope so, but I'm not remotely optimistic.
		
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Sorry but I live in NJ and I can't contradict you.   

Malcolm Gladwell explains the concept of meme pretty well in Tipping Point.  In that book he talks about how one suicide led to a series of others, but the idea is the same.  Once a meme http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meme with traction is generated, it can be impossible to arrest the momentum.

Michael Moore made the point in Bowling for Columbine that Canadians have plenty of guns, but they just DON'T go around shooting people with them.  They are NOT generally afraid of their fellow human.  And they are not generally expecting an apocalypse any day now....  

America's problem is, truly, NOT a gun problem.  It is a culture in decline problem.  It is a culture that cannot come to grips with the true measure of it's past.  (As in, yeah, the USA is just dandy and all that, but you have to admit that committing genocide against the native population during the initial 'acquisition' phase was, um, ya know, wrong.....etc)  It is a culture that is succumbing to the dereliction of it's desires (Big Mac anybody? Walmart low prices?  Wanna live your whole life sittin' on your butt playing video games? etc)  

Currently, the gun is a most beloved mode of self destruction.  But yes, even if we eliminate the guns, America will still self destruct.


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## Luci07 (20 December 2012)

Thank you for posting. I am fed up,with simply seeing the truly uninformed ranting on the Internet and it is a breath of fresh air to read a post from an American which is rational. My US friends and family don't share the views that we see so frequently in the media either.


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## Wundahorse (20 December 2012)

It's not so much the weapons that are dangerous,but the people wielding them,many of who should be kept well away from anything which can inflict harm.People with any hint of mental instability should not have access to weapons,in my view,and at least in the UK there are laws around this.In the US any nutter can have a gun.I still don't get why US citizens need semi automatic and other military type firearms,unless there are terrible dangers stalking American society on a mass scale.I have a theory that the perpetrators of mass shootings invariably have an Autistic spectrum disorder,having studied the psychological profiles and had discussions at work with other clinical staff.We have treated such people and look at the risk they present to the public,and i have to say there are some seriously worrying folk out there,who under different circumstances could inflict serious harm.It is sad there are folk out there who are well under the radar who suddenly erupt,although retrospectively there are usually warning signs which are rarely elicited and managed as the few people around them have no insight into the potential risks.Another poster referred to care in the community compared to what would have been provided historically.The old asylums managed such people which tended to keep society safe. Now there are precious few resources and most people(and children) with autism rarely fit the criteria for a service,and when the do pop up on the radar,the criteria usually rejects them.In this latest case the perpetrator had a diagnosis of Aspergers,but no indication anybody out there clearly understood the implications and risk factors associated with this socially disabling developmental disorder.These people,at the more severe end of the spectrum find it difficult to relate to the world around them,or  their own feelings,and they can become increasingly frustrated and isolated from peer groups and society.They often harbor unusual and unhealthy interests and cannot always distinguish between reality and fantasy.This is at the most extreme end of the spectrum before anyone jumps on me.I apologize to anyone who has a mild form of the disorder who does function at a good level.I deal with extremes in my job and it is this perspective i am referring to.


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## Clava (20 December 2012)

How about this paranoid reaction to the shooting....words fail me that some can see it as a government attempt to take away their guns.
http://shortlittlerebel.wordpress.com/2012/12/16/urgent-update-on-connecticut-shooting/

This is where I came across it http://www.horseforum.com/news-politics/can-anyone-explain-me-146965/


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## Wundahorse (20 December 2012)

The conspiracy theories always materialize and are quite shocking to the extent they detract from the reality of this tragic event and trivializes the suffering of the poor victims and their families.These incidents are always confusing and chaotic which is why it is so hard to obtain definitive eye witness accounts,as each person has their own experiences to relate to which can vary greatly from one person to another.The lesson which needs to be addressed is the firearms licensing system in the states.Unless the USA legislates for a licensing system am afraid this will not be the last tragedy of this magnitude.Anyone with a mental health problem should be assessed for fitness to own a gun,and such assessments should be frequent as mental health problems can vary in nature and degree.


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## Caol Ila (20 December 2012)

I am also a member of that forum and I avoid the politics section like the plague, as it generally makes me want to throw heavy objects at the computer screen.  You guys, being from a socialist state like the UK that just doesn't understand "freedom," should do the same.    It makes me realise how many right wing conservatives in the US can be quite reasonable, sane sounding horse owners.  People marginally to the left of Charlton Heston are in a minority on that site.  I got into a political tangle over there once or twice (I think it was about gay marriage and healthcare) and all I could think was, oh.... dear. 

The old asylums had their issues, but as someone who has studied them, I think they had benefits as well and it is pretty clear that de-institutionalisation has socially isolated a lot of people in the US and the UK.  At least in the UK, other services (like the one my husband works at) were created to manage and help people in the wake of de-institutionalisation.  They're not perfect either, but they don't do badly. The US, because of its fabulous healthcare system based on capitalist profiteering and rugged-individualist mindset that decries spending tax dollars to help the less fortunate, has feck-all.  There's nae money to be had in social care.


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## Wundahorse (20 December 2012)

I work in Forensic Psychiatry which is a service that has proliferated at a phenomenal rate since the closure of the psychiatric hospitals.This has increased as community care has also suffered huge cutbacks and staff are struggling to maintain their patients.Recently even more hospital beds have been closed,resulting in some very unwell people at large in the community,with few support networks and the occasional contact from a CPN or other mental health professional.I mainly concentrate on Police custody liaison and i am finding a huge number of psychiatric patients going through the criminal justice system,simply for want of care and treatment.The Government are still intent on forcing more cutbacks in the next financial year.Luckily,and i do believe it is only luck,there have been no terrible tragedies here of late,but here but the grace of God go we.


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## typekitty (20 December 2012)

Clava_Christmas said:



			How about this paranoid reaction to the shooting....words fail me that some can see it as a government attempt to take away their guns.
http://shortlittlerebel.wordpress.com/2012/12/16/urgent-update-on-connecticut-shooting/

This is where I came across it http://www.horseforum.com/news-politics/can-anyone-explain-me-146965/

Click to expand...

I clicked on that second link and have now been sucked in. The ignorance on there is so frustrating. Thankfully there is some voice of reason.


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## Clava (20 December 2012)

typekitty said:



			I clicked on that second link and have now been sucked in. The ignorance on there is so frustrating. Thankfully there is some voice of reason.
		
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Not many though, very scary.

That thread is now closed, which is odd, but apparently many forums do not even allow th etopic to be discussed over there.


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## Caol Ila (20 December 2012)

Yes, thank you, Tories.   I think Scotland may be feeling it a bit less, but it's still not good.  :/

On the argument of more guns = more freedom... well, that's pants.  In fact, the opposite of a free, civil society is an armed society.  The US also has the First Amendment, the right to freedom of speech.  How comfortable would you be having a debate with someone carrying a gun on his hip?  Nothing stifles discourse so well as people being armed.  The way people interpret the Second Amendment now (probably not the way the guys who wrote it intended, but nevermind) pit it at odds with the First.  Michel Foucault, who has looked at the mechanisms of power as thoroughly as anyone, has argued that nothing suits an autocratic government more than exteme individualism.  What keeps a government in check is a community who can assemble and organise.  It is easier to manipulate a collection of atomistic and independent individuals than a community, and private gun ownership promotes a retreat into extreme individualism and corrodes community.  After all, a society where everyone is armed is a society pervaded by suspicion, fear, and mistrust, all of which undermine community and civic cooperation.  

I would venture to say that the United States is one of the few countries in the world to more or less create a successful democracy (for white men anyway) after an armed insurrection.  In other cases that come to my mind at least, the armed revolution has lead to a different, but equally as autocratic and repressive, government taking power.


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## Alec Swan (20 December 2012)

Isabeau said:



			Sorry but I live in NJ and I can't contradict you.   

Malcolm Gladwell explains the concept of meme pretty well in Tipping Point.  In that book he talks about how one suicide led to a series of others, but the idea is the same.  Once a meme http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meme with traction is generated, it can be impossible to arrest the momentum.    *An interesting argument,  and one which would suggest that Humans and Lemmings have something in common.*

Michael Moore made the point in Bowling for Columbine that Canadians have plenty of guns, but they just DON'T go around shooting people with them.  They are NOT generally afraid of their fellow human.  And they are not generally expecting an apocalypse any day now....   *Moore made a very good point,  and as your thoughts progress,  so the argument,  correctly in my view,  is that the "Right of ownership" (sic) may not actually be the problem.*

America's problem is, truly, NOT a gun problem.  It is a culture in decline problem.   *I agree with you.*  It is a culture that cannot come to grips with the true measure of it's past.  (As in, yeah, the USA is just dandy and all that, but you have to admit that committing genocide against the native population during the initial 'acquisition' phase was, um, ya know, wrong.....etc)  It is a culture that is succumbing to the dereliction of it's desires (Big Mac anybody? Walmart low prices?  Wanna live your whole life sittin' on your butt playing video games? etc)   *Now there,  I can't agree with you.  Whilst I understand the history of the problem,  explaining our deficiencies,  by blaming it all on what happened,  300 years ago,  isn't on.  We've moved on.  Or have we?  If we haven't,  then we need to.*

Currently, the gun is a most beloved mode of self destruction.  But yes, even if we eliminate the guns, America will still self destruct.   *Again,  I'm not so sure.  There has to be change,  but change in approach and attitude and vitally,  a deeper or clearer understanding of how the rest of the world views America.........*

Click to expand...

...... and importantly that as we in the UK seem to be inexplicably welded to America,  so this also affects us,  here.

I have a very good forum friend,  also an American,  and as he's taken me to task previously,  then with luck he may not see this!   America is so vast,  and so closed,  and so narrow and so insular,  that as a Nation,  they haven't,  over the last few decades anyway,  needed to consider how the remainder of the world,  views them.  

Just as after 9/11,  when I was in Scotland and when I met up with two Americans,  they were staggered at the lack of support from the bulk of the UK public.  These were intelligent men,  but they had been so protected by their own media,  to be near cocooned.  

I'm not too sure where the answer lies.  My liking of American individuals is a separate issue from my loathing of previous American foreign policies,  and even more so,  of my intense loathing of the apparent UK support for such atrocities as Guantanamo Bay.

Sooner or later,  America will have to start to consider the rest of the world,  and the opinions of those who are outside their shores.  One thing's for certain,  it ain't going to happen overnight.  Bowling for Columbine was a step in the right direction.  There needs to be a deal more introspective thought though,  and it needs to start at the beginning.

Isabeau,  and Rutland20.  Excellent posts from both of you.

I wonder if it's because I'm old that I despair of change.

Alec.


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## Luci07 (20 December 2012)

I doubt there is anyone in the UK who could say we have it right in how we support those with any degree of mental illness. It would just seem that we are further down the road than the US in this instance albeit we have a very very long way to go. Am I in the minority in thinking it is quite unacceptable to keep throwing mental illness as the reason why all these horrendous murders happen? Seems to me that the mentally ill are an easy target and scapegoat. Absolutely understand there are dangerous mentally ill and unstable people in both our societies  and think that even in 20 years time our current views will seem oppressive and uneducated. Lets not forget, in the UK, it wasn't that long ago that epileptics were thought to be mentally ill too..

So ..can any good come out of this tragedy? Maybe. If it encourages society to look under the covers and try to start to facilitate change. It has happened before, it can happen again..


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## CorvusCorax (20 December 2012)

Some great points on here and nice to get the inside view from R20, Isibeau and CI (where in CO, by the way?)

I saw this and thought of you guys:
"If you think the government is going to take away your guns, you are crazy & should have your guns taken away."

Have I mentioned Living for 32 enough times?


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## Luci07 (20 December 2012)

Just read Alec's post which came in while I was writing and I whole heartedly share the majority of his sentiments, although I am more optimistic.  I have worked for a number of huge well known US companies and the attitude towards " the rest of the world" is truly staggering at times, though I have found that most New Yorkers tend to have a more global stance ...no idea why! remember sailing into Russia on a sales trip and the night before, we were all warned by a senior staff member to be careful as " we are Americans" yes, I did go up afterwards, ably supported by 2 girlfriends and introduced ourself as xxx, British. Luckily he did have a SOH and apologised...


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## Clava (20 December 2012)

From discussing this issue on the US horse forum, I can't see how there will ever be meaningful change to their gun laws, having guns seems to be so ingrained into their culture that not having so many guns is unthinkable. The only answer suggested to the gun crimes seemd to be more guns to protect people - some even suggested that if the teachers had been armed then it would not have happened.


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## Caol Ila (20 December 2012)

CaveCanem, I'm from Boulder.  I like your quote!  

I manned up and read through part of the thread.  No surprising or new arguments -- just what you see on Fox News, or on reader comments for news articles online.  Except for the person who said buying an assault rifle just because you want one is no different than buying a fancy, fast car because you want one.  You just want to say, Really?????   It is illustrative of the point I made earlier in this thread -- how ingrained it all is in American psyche.  

As for "blaming" these tragedies on "mental illness," well, if you read literature on the insanity defense, which has existed in one form or another since the Middle Ages (or earlier, in some cultures), there's endless discussion on whether or not the nature of the crime itself can or should be constituted as a symptom of mental illness.  There isn't a straightforward answer and we haven't figured it out any more than the Victorians did.  

In any case, I made the point in my thesis that there have always been individuals in any given society classified as crazy or abnormal or mad.  How the crazy manifests itself is then dependent on socio-cultural factors.  People's delusions, paranoias, and so on are very clearly derived from their contemporary political and social events.  Unfortunately in the US, there is a sort of madness born out of isolation and social dysfunction that leads people to engage in these mass shootings.   Do the perpetrators of this fit the "classical" insanity defense paradigm?  Not knowing the difference between right and wrong, nor appreciating the nature and consequences of their action?


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## CorvusCorax (20 December 2012)

PMing you!


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## Wundahorse (20 December 2012)

Mental illness certainly explains why some violent crimes are perpetrated and the causal factors are numerous and often very individual.There is the other argument about psychopathic disorder,where there is no evidence of mental illness,just amoral,remorseless,impulsive behavior with no hint of victim empathy.Even with psychopathy the jury is out as it is abnormal to express these antisocial traits,therefore either nature,nurture or both may be the triggers.Research suggests a frontal lobe problem,but not in all cases. There are similarities between Autistic traits,personality disorder and schizophrenia which does confuse the picture,but with a thorough assessment the different elements which define these disorders should be apparent.There is a lot of research around whether people are born "bad" or they become bad through their upbringing and experiences.Some of the best longitudinal research by Farrington and West  suggests there is a genetic link in some cases.The rest may be influenced  by upbringing,culture,values and beliefs and biological causes.I have dealt with some cases where the individuals are fixated on war,firearms,death and all manner of morbid themes.One of the biggest indicators is childhood cruelty to animals. Believe me, i have nursed some very psychopathic people in my time who have no comprehension of the difference between right and wrong,good or bad,and they have absolutely no emotional empathy to any living thing.If such individuals had access to firearms they would not hesitate to use them.Fortunately the ones i have dealt with are locked up for life.It is the lone wolf we need to be aware of.I wonder how many more are lurking out there waiting for that catalyst which could  trigger the next massacre.From the insights i have of these crimes,revenge is often a central theme.In a country as big as the States i can only assume there are plenty of odd bods who go totally unnoticed.


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## ClobellsandBaubles (20 December 2012)

Mogg said:



			Finally, whilst not detracting at all from the loss suffered by the families and friends, it was briefly mentioned on the news today that 10 Afghan children, ages 9 -11 were killed by a mine/i.e.d whilst collecting firewood.  Are their lives worth less than the American children? going by the media coverage given to both events then yes. and i find that very very sad indeed.
		
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I found this incredibly distressing that some children can be viewed as more important than other 


Isabeau said:



			Michael Moore made the point in Bowling for Columbine that Canadians have plenty of guns, but they just DON'T go around shooting people with them.  They are NOT generally afraid of their fellow human.  And they are not generally expecting an apocalypse any day now....  

America's problem is, truly, NOT a gun problem.  It is a culture in decline problem.   

Currently, the gun is a most beloved mode of self destruction.  But yes, even if we eliminate the guns, America will still self destruct.
		
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Luci07 said:



			remember sailing into Russia on a sales trip and the night before, we were all warned by a senior staff member to be careful as " we are Americans" yes, I did go up afterwards, ably supported by 2 girlfriends and introduced ourself as xxx, British. Luckily he did have a SOH and apologised...
		
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I don't think it just the rest of the world either. My dad was posted to America in the 80's and made friends with a largely black community as he was British he wasn't seen as threatening although I won't pretend to understand much about it your story just reminded me.


Caol Ila said:



			CaveCanem, I'm from Boulder.  I like your quote!  

I manned up and read through part of the thread.  No surprising or new arguments -- just what you see on Fox News, or on reader comments for news articles online.  Except for the person who said buying an assault rifle just because you want one is no different than buying a fancy, fast car because you want one.  You just want to say, Really?????   It is illustrative of the point I made earlier in this thread -- how ingrained it all is in American psyche.  

As for "blaming" these tragedies on "mental illness," well, if you read literature on the insanity defense, which has existed in one form or another since the Middle Ages (or earlier, in some cultures), there's endless discussion on whether or not the nature of the crime itself can or should be constituted as a symptom of mental illness.  There isn't a straightforward answer and we haven't figured it out any more than the Victorians did.  

In any case, I made the point in my thesis that there have always been individuals in any given society classified as crazy or abnormal or mad.  How the crazy manifests itself is then dependent on socio-cultural factors.  People's delusions, paranoias, and so on are very clearly derived from their contemporary political and social events.  Unfortunately in the US, there is a sort of madness born out of isolation and social dysfunction that leads people to engage in these mass shootings.   Do the perpetrators of this fit the "classical" insanity defense paradigm?  Not knowing the difference between right and wrong, nor appreciating the nature and consequences of their action?
		
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You have put my thoughts much better than I could. There is mental illness in every culture but something about America cultivates this sort of mass shooting. 

This has been a very enlightening debate for me about the healthcare, media, attitudes and issues that seem to be a melting pot ATM. People in Europe could drive into schools with cricket bats and yet they don't something about guns makes killing easier, detached making them less available will go some way to helping the symptoms of a far more deep rooted problem but would mask real issues.


In my limited experience I find a lot of American attitudes to the outside world bewilderingly ignorant as mentioned above, how are they more free or so much better than the rest of us?? To me Americans especially on the linked forum seem afraid of each other, strangers, an unknown armed attack, some sort of apocalypse, wild animals. I would hate to live with that level of fear that I thought it vital to have a gun to defend myself. But then I don't feel I have anything to defend myself from.


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## Isabeau (21 December 2012)

ClobellsandBaubles said:



			In my limited experience I find a lot of American attitudes to the outside world bewilderingly ignorant as mentioned above, how are they more free or so much better than the rest of us?? To me Americans especially on the linked forum seem afraid of each other, strangers, an unknown armed attack, some sort of apocalypse, wild animals. I would hate to live with that level of fear that I thought it vital to have a gun to defend myself. But then I don't feel I have anything to defend myself from.
		
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Fear is an essential component of the culture of consumption.  

You are encouraged to be afraid of the social stigma of acne so you will buy the acne treatment cream.   Afraid of the wrinkles, so you buy wrinkle cream.  Afraid of appearing poor, so you buy the status symbol car.  Afraid of paying high prices so you shop at Walmart.  Afraid of slow service or an 'unknown' product so you buy fast food at McDonalds.  Afraid of old age so you buy investment 'products.'  Afraid of being a single female living alone so you buy a gun.  

Encouraging fear is a very effective way of driving the purchase of many different consumables.  "You should be afraid.  You ARE afraid.  Do you want your fear to go away?  Buy this."

When discussing health care with opponents of a national system, I often hear "But I am just terrified of the government controlling my health care."  Terrified.  Their argument against national health care is that they are afraid.  They expect that to be argument enough.  They expect their fear to be the final word, the final argument.  They are afraid.


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## DraftLVR (21 December 2012)

While the loss of life war horrific, I would like to make some observations about what I have read on this Forum

If the Lady had her guns locked in a safe as any good Gun owner should, her son who was obviously mentally ill would have not had access to the guns.

In 1927 45 Children were killed at their school by a Bomb made with dynamite

More Gun Laws or bans on certain weapons or magazine capacities will not do any good, actually since the last ban expired guns deaths have actually gone down from 10,000 in 2005 to 7,000 as of 2011, most deaths by a gun were suicides and criminals.

The US is 3.7 Million Square Miles with 320 Million people, the UK is 94,000 Square miles with 64 million people.

Chicago and Washington DC have the toughest Gun Laws in the US, almost NO ONE can own a Handgun or even carry one even if they are the select few that can legally buy one, but yet they have the highest Murder rate in the Country

The US borders Mexico with some of the worse crime coming across the border into the US, every day there are these drug lords coming across the border murdering and robbing US citizens, the Mexican Gangs are also rampant in most major cities in the US

If guns are outlawed, what is to stop the criminals from Mexico bring in a few thousand weapons every month along with the few thousand tons of drugs they bring into the US?

The Average Response time for Police during a Home Invasion, Robbery or Rape is 8 Minutes in the City and 27 Minutes in the Country

The US has Bears, Mountain Lions, Bobcats and Cougars, try defending your Family, Horses and property with a knife or club.

The US averages 14,000 innocent people killed every year by Drunk Divers, where is the Outrage on this Forum about that 

I find it interesting that someone who has no idea of what goes on in the US would judge things they know nothing about 

The Media never tells you the complete story about what happens in the US, of course the media in the US is just as bad.


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## Wundahorse (21 December 2012)

I don't think anyone on this forum is saying Americans cannot use guns against predatory wildlife or violent assailants.The issue is the ease in which Americans have access to guns,and that there is a minority who for whatever reason,abuses the power of the weapon in their hands by killing innocent children and people in irrational massacres.We will never understand the reason why this occurs as the perpetrators tend to kill themselves,thus it is left to hypothesis as a means to try and gain insights into the nature of the gunmen or women.It is to prevent these atrocities that action needs to be taken,not to remove firearms from farmers who need them to protect their stock or hunt .


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## Clava (21 December 2012)

DraftLVR said:



			The Average Response time for Police during a Home Invasion, Robbery or Rape is 8 Minutes in the City and 27 Minutes in the Country.....

Chicago and Washington DC have the toughest Gun Laws in the US, almost NO ONE can own a Handgun or even carry one even if they are the select few that can legally buy one, but yet they have the highest Murder rate in the Country....
.
		
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Our police are not regularly armed anyway, so although better response times (in some areas) they wouldn't be bringing guns with them anyway.

The US has a homicide rate of 3.7 people per 100,000 due to guns and the UK has  0.4 - more guns equates to more gun deaths, but gun laws to work they needs to be enforced properly.


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## Clava (21 December 2012)

DraftLVR said:



			The US averages 14,000 innocent people killed every year by Drunk Divers, where is the Outrage on this Forum about that 

I find it interesting that someone who has no idea of what goes on in the US would judge things they know nothing about 

The Media never tells you the complete story about what happens in the US, of course the media in the US is just as bad.
		
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Not sure what drunk drivers has to do with this, just because there are other terrible things happening doesn't lessen gun crime.

I think a perspective from outside the US where things can be very different (in the UK) and we can feel safe without having to have a gun is perhaps exactly the input you may need to make a radical change as whatever you are doing now the high death rate implies that it is not working so well.


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## SusannaF (21 December 2012)

Yes, because we spend all our time on this forum saying that drunk driving is a good thing 


The fact that the mother seemed to believe all that Fox News crazy about the collapse of civilization can't really have helped the situation.


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## Caol Ila (21 December 2012)

DraftLVR said:



			While the loss of life war horrific, I would like to make some observations about what I have read on this Forum

If the Lady had her guns locked in a safe as any good Gun owner should, her son who was obviously mentally ill would have not had access to the guns.

In 1927 45 Children were killed at their school by a Bomb made with dynamite

More Gun Laws or bans on certain weapons or magazine capacities will not do any good, actually since the last ban expired guns deaths have actually gone down from 10,000 in 2005 to 7,000 as of 2011, most deaths by a gun were suicides and criminals.

The US is 3.7 Million Square Miles with 320 Million people, the UK is 94,000 Square miles with 64 million people.

Chicago and Washington DC have the toughest Gun Laws in the US, almost NO ONE can own a Handgun or even carry one even if they are the select few that can legally buy one, but yet they have the highest Murder rate in the Country

The US borders Mexico with some of the worse crime coming across the border into the US, every day there are these drug lords coming across the border murdering and robbing US citizens, the Mexican Gangs are also rampant in most major cities in the US

If guns are outlawed, what is to stop the criminals from Mexico bring in a few thousand weapons every month along with the few thousand tons of drugs they bring into the US?

The Average Response time for Police during a Home Invasion, Robbery or Rape is 8 Minutes in the City and 27 Minutes in the Country

The US has Bears, Mountain Lions, Bobcats and Cougars, try defending your Family, Horses and property with a knife or club.

The US averages 14,000 innocent people killed every year by Drunk Divers, where is the Outrage on this Forum about that 

I find it interesting that someone who has no idea of what goes on in the US would judge things they know nothing about 

The Media never tells you the complete story about what happens in the US, of course the media in the US is just as bad.
		
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Dude, reread the thread!  Some of us who posted here ARE American.  We know exactly what goes on and can judge it all we want.  As can Brits and the rest of the world.  Surely by your logic, you can't judge the way the Taliban, say, treated women, because you're not Afghan and you have no idea what goes on in Afghanistan.  

I've seen that argument elsewhere -- the international perspective getting dismissed on the grounds of "you're not American; you just don't understand."  Well, for one, that tells me that you actually don't have a good argument and for two, plenty of Americans agree with the international perspective.  Not everyone over there is a raging gun nut.   However, the US can't get over the national myth that it is "exceptional" and looking at the rest of the world, what seems to work in other countries, would imply that another county is doing something better, undermining that myth.  

I would have to double check the regulations as per guns in DC and Chicago, but at the end of the day, it has to be a federal law.  You should cite your statistics.  Given that there are no border controls between any states, anyone can buy a gun in a neighbouring state and take it into Chicago or DC.  This is done for less serious things -- we used to buy booze in New Hampshire and bring it back to Massachusetts because it was cheaper in NH (probably not really, if you add the price of petrol to get to the NH border, but we're talking student mentality here).  

I saw on the news this morning that four people were shot in Colorado -- a family domestic that turned into a murder-suicide.  Very sad.  

I think what Isabeau said about fear making people want things, or not want things (i.e. state-run healthcare) was  a beautifully written post.  The far right fears tyranny?  That's why they need all their guns?    The far right rhetoric, exacerbating fear, fear of liberals, gays, their neighbours, European socialists, change, immigrants, elitists, education, atheists, sex, the government, ad nauseam, is where tyranny ferments.  Autocratic governments maintain power through a fearful, easily-manipulated citizenry.


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## Alec Swan (21 December 2012)

Whether others feel that my modest observations about mankind,  also apply to Americans,  will be for those others,  to decide.

Having spent some considerable time all around the UK,  I've noticed that be a person,  English,  a Scot,  a Welsh or an Irishman,  when he's travelled away from his home land,  when he's worked away,  or been in the forces,  when he's travelled and considered others,  apart from those who are in his immediate environment,  then he tends to be a more worldly man,  and all so often a more tolerant man,  too.  

When I've travelled to Scotland,  Wales or Ireland,  and I've met with those who've "Bin nowhere,  and done nuffink",  then whilst not always,  but all so often,  I've met with the narrow minded and the bigot.

America is the World to an awful lot of Americans.  Expecting every American to travel and consider different cultures and mind sets isn't being realistic.  

Regardless of the country of origin,  those who live within a narrowed world,  will have a similar view of life.

America has a sense of history,  which I suspect is distorted.  Those "Good 'ol boys",  who were promoted as gun wielding heros,  during the second half of the 19th. century,  by the media at the time,  and so many of the writers of the day,  were actually murdering criminals,  in reality.  Where shall we start the list?  Jesse James? Doc Holliday?  Wyatt Earp?  Murderers,  nothing more or less.  So why are they held aloft as heros to whom the common man should aspire?  The firearm may well have had a place in the lives of many,  150 years ago.  So did the horse,  but that's changed too.  

Children are where the world needs to start,  with adjusting twisted viewpoints,  but as with the parental influence upon racism,  I suspect that it's going to take a long time,  and it wont be easy!! 

I've particularly enjoyed the contributions from all those who are resident in America,  and whilst DraftLVR,  I really struggle with some of your statements,  your opinions are of value too.

If you're to shoot at me,  would you please do so,  but quietly? 

Alec.


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## cefyl (22 December 2012)

Good post Alec

I have spent the past 35 years living for much of the time in America, I am married to an American, and though mostly resident back in the UK we still own several business interests there and property.  

Guns are ingrained into the American psyche, maybe as Alec says partly a throwback to the hero status of the Wild West gun toting figures like Wyatt Earp, and further back to the conquering Pilgrim Fathers.  I cannot see how or who can change this.

Before I got married in the early 1980's a neighbour at the next town home in the gated community I lived at was burgled.  A policeman investigating the crime saw me going into my home and came over asking if I had seen anyone suspicious.  When he determined I lived alone he asked outright if I had a gun.  I did not so I was told to get one, if someone broke in and I was home to shoot them, if they tried to get away shoot them, if they were injured outside shoot them again and drag them back in - then call the police!!!  I never did get a gun.  But that was very much the attitude of the time.

My late father in law had a loaded gun, sometimes 2 or 3 in every room.  Most of our friends in the states do the same, or at least 2 loaded guns in a house.  Now we are not talking about those living in low income neighbourhoods but the high end very wealthy portion, multi-million dollar homes with full security, staff.  They see it as the norm, and their right.

15 years ago I lost a friend who was gunned down by a boyfriend after breaking up with him.  He was a successful business man, pillar of the community, who turned up in the afternoon at her house with a semi-automatic and kicked the door in and shot her as she tried to get out the back door, then he also gunned down her neighbour who had been there as she tried to run away down the drive.  Hear of so so many similar instances.  He got off with 6 months in jail due to dimished mental responsibility, a good lawyer and a doctor who said his mind was altered by anti-depressants prescribed because he was depressed about the break up.

Had another friend who came to my office one day, there she received a phone call from her husband who had stopped at a convenience store (in a quite neighbourhood) to use a phone because his cell phone had died and he was telling her he was on the way home.  While on the phone she heard 2 loud pops, he stopped talking but she could here someone yelling in the background.  He had  been shot, in the back, by an opportunist at 3.00 o'clock in the afternoon hoping to grab some cash or jewellery.  Just too too easy.  Just walked up, gun in the pocket - bang.

The drive by shootings, the mall shootings, the restaurant shootings, all the ones that happen every day, every week that NEVER make the news outside of the USA because, well it happens all the time, just normal.  Did anyone in the UK hear of the mass shooting that killed 23 at a Luby's cafeteria in Killeen, Texas in 1991?  It barely made news outside of the state.  The response of the Texas legislature was to start issuing licences to carry concealed handguns in 1996 following pressure to allow this (prior to 1996 is was an offence in Texas to carry a concealed weapon though to have one loaded hanging on a gun rack inyour car was perfectly OK), citing it would serve for people to better protect themselves.  Fighting fire with fire???  

Yet what did the UK do after the 1996 Dunblane massacre ?  Quickly ban public ownership of handguns.  What did Australia do after the 1996 Tasmanian massacre of 35 people by a man with a semi-automatic?  Quickly banned semi-automatics, assault rifles, and seriously controlled private gun ownership - there has not been one mass shooting there since.

What does the US do normally?  Actually INCREASES the right to bear arms, more and more states now allows concealed weapons, encourages more people to carry loaded weapons (now the call for all teachers to have a loaded weapon in each classroom).  Perhaps it really has gone way to far to turn back.


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## typekitty (22 December 2012)

cefyl said:



			Good post Alec

I have spent the past 35 years living for much of the time in America, I am married to an American, and though mostly resident back in the UK we still own several business interests there and property.  

Guns are ingrained into the American psyche, maybe as Alec says partly a throwback to the hero status of the Wild West gun toting figures like Wyatt Earp, and further back to the conquering Pilgrim Fathers.  I cannot see how or who can change this.

Before I got married in the early 1980's a neighbour at the next town home in the gated community I lived at was burgled.  A policeman investigating the crime saw me going into my home and came over asking if I had seen anyone suspicious.  When he determined I lived alone he asked outright if I had a gun.  I did not so I was told to get one, if someone broke in and I was home to shoot them, if they tried to get away shoot them, if they were injured outside shoot them again and drag them back in - then call the police!!!  I never did get a gun.  But that was very much the attitude of the time.

My late father in law had a loaded gun, sometimes 2 or 3 in every room.  Most of our friends in the states do the same, or at least 2 loaded guns in a house.  Now we are not talking about those living in low income neighbourhoods but the high end very wealthy portion, multi-million dollar homes with full security, staff.  They see it as the norm, and their right.

15 years ago I lost a friend who was gunned down by a boyfriend after breaking up with him.  He was a successful business man, pillar of the community, who turned up in the afternoon at her house with a semi-automatic and kicked the door in and shot her as she tried to get out the back door, then he also gunned down her neighbour who had been there as she tried to run away down the drive.  Hear of so so many similar instances.  He got off with 6 months in jail due to dimished mental responsibility, a good lawyer and a doctor who said his mind was altered by anti-depressants prescribed because he was depressed about the break up.

Had another friend who came to my office one day, there she received a phone call from her husband who had stopped at a convenience store (in a quite neighbourhood) to use a phone because his cell phone had died and he was telling her he was on the way home.  While on the phone she heard 2 loud pops, he stopped talking but she could here someone yelling in the background.  He had  been shot, in the back, by an opportunist at 3.00 o'clock in the afternoon hoping to grab some cash or jewellery.  Just too too easy.  Just walked up, gun in the pocket - bang.

The drive by shootings, the mall shootings, the restaurant shootings, all the ones that happen every day, every week that NEVER make the news outside of the USA because, well it happens all the time, just normal.  Did anyone in the UK hear of the mass shooting that killed 23 at a Luby's cafeteria in Killeen, Texas in 1991?  It barely made news outside of the state.  The response of the Texas legislature was to start issuing licences to carry concealed handguns in 1996 following pressure to allow this (prior to 1996 is was an offence in Texas to carry a concealed weapon though to have one loaded hanging on a gun rack inyour car was perfectly OK), citing it would serve for people to better protect themselves.  Fighting fire with fire???  

Yet what did the UK do after the 1996 Dunblane massacre ?  Quickly ban public ownership of handguns.  What did Australia do after the 1996 Tasmanian massacre of 35 people by a man with a semi-automatic?  Quickly banned semi-automatics, assault rifles, and seriously controlled private gun ownership - there has not been one mass shooting there since.

What does the US do normally?  Actually INCREASES the right to bear arms, more and more states now allows concealed weapons, encourages more people to carry loaded weapons (now the call for all teachers to have a loaded weapon in each classroom).  Perhaps it really has gone way to far to turn back.
		
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^ Spot on.

I watched a video of a witness giving testimony regarding the Texas cafeteria shooting. She was saying that, from where she hid, she had a clear shot to get the gunman, had she had her pistol in her purse (it was left in the car due to the law) and it was the laws fault that she wasn't able to shoot him and more people were killed. 

It annoys me that people think, that in the heat of the moment, they can stop a gunman in the middle of a shoot out if they are armed. I think this is ridiculous, as you never know how you're going to respond in any sort of situation like that, or what else could happen! So to just think, 'Well, if I had a gun, he'd be dead and that would do it' just seems... ridiculous.

Edited to add: It also grinds my gears that Americans seem to think that democracy and freedom goes hand in hand with owning a gun.


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