# When will employers come into the 21st century?



## ponymum (3 October 2019)

I saw a post on Facebook a couple of days ago for an advert for a yard manager:

_"EXCITING JOB OPPORTUNITY WITH HORSES... We are currently recruiting for a client: If you are interested in the following opportunity, please contact us:
HEAD GROOM / YARD MANAGER
Competition Yard between *******
SALARY
Negotiable dependent on experience/ability but in the range Â£17,000 to Â£20,000 pa
THE OPPORTUNITY
XXXXX is currently recruiting on behalf of a client for a Head Groom / Yard Manager for their busy home competition yard in the Lincolnshire Wolds. This is an exciting opportunity for someone with excellent horsemanship skills, confidence and knowledge of working in a leadership capacity on a professional yard, and a desire to become part of a fabulous team who are passionate and meticulous about the equines in their charge. For the right person there will be opportunity to travel to competitions and develop the role.
THE ROLE
To lead a team of grooms in the smooth running of the yard. The duties will include, but are not limited to:
ï‚§ All aspects of the care of competition horses including stable duties
ï‚§ Exercising the horses using the walker, Pessoa training aids, long lining and lunging
ï‚§ Riding the horses both in the school and out hacking (not essential but is desirable)
ï‚§ Organising the team and managing rotas to ensure adequate staff cover at all times
ï‚§ Be responsible for running the yard when the owners are away travelling
ï‚§ Managing stock of feed and bedding etc.
ï‚§ Ensuring that tack and other equipment is kept clean and in good working order
THE HOURS
The position is full time and the hours are five days a week (start times can be discussed with owners who are flexible). The two days off will be consecutive days. You will be expected to work one day at the weekend (on a rotational shift with other team members).
THE IDEAL CANDIDATE
You will ideally:
ï‚§ Be self-employed and willing to work on this basis, with your own insurance cover
ï‚§ Have a mature and professional attitude to work
ï‚§ Be reliable, hard-working and flexible to the changing needs of the business during busy periods.
ï‚§ Have excellent knowledge of horses with ability to recognise and confidently deal with minor cuts and scrapes, dressings, etc.
ï‚§ Be a competent and confident rider at a level that you can school the horses (leg yielding etc).
ï‚§ Be extremely tidy with high standards of work.
In return the yard owners will offer the right candidate an excellent working environment where you will be handing eight large, beautiful, well behaved horses in a stunning location with facilities that are second to none. There will be a one-month probationary period._"

I commented that this job does not fulfil the criteria for being self-employed. The post was removed but has also been posted on other groups. 
When will people realise that this kind of "contract" is illegal?
I see lots of comments about yards not being able to find good, hard-working staff and that it's nigh on impossible to make a profit, but don't do it by treating your staff like dirt! 
You pay peanuts - you get monkeys!!


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## The Fuzzy Furry (3 October 2019)

Â£18k a year works out at Â£8.65 an hour. 20k is Â£9.62 an hour, working out on 40 hours a week which is very likely in an equestrian job.

When WILL the equine industry get into the 20th century let alone the 21st!
Potential employees could be far better off at a local supermarket in the warm and dry......


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## paddy555 (3 October 2019)

ponymum said:



			I commented that this job does not fulfil the criteria for being self-employed. 

You pay peanuts - you get monkeys!!
		
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and in this case it will be most definitely an EMPLOYED monkey


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## Bernster (3 October 2019)

Wow, expecting a lot, paying bugger all for it.


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## dogatemysalad (3 October 2019)

Who is to blame for the low wages ? Owners want the cheapest full livery and that's not feasible when yards pay their staff a decent wage. 
Full livery with exercise and hunter livery, including prep, bathing, plaiting etc, etc, locally, is around Â£130 per week. I've yet to hear anyone demanding the price should be increased. 
I'd like to see grooms rewarded for their hard work and professionalism, but the blame lies with horse owners who want the services as cheaply as possible.


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## Bernster (3 October 2019)

Well, yes, thatâ€™s market dynamics.  Maybe Iâ€™m in a minority and yes itâ€™s a chunk of money but I donâ€™t begrudge livery costs as itâ€™s not an easy job or industry.  Iâ€™m hugely grateful to those who look after my horses and appreciate the hard work and long hours

If I havenâ€™t said that enough Aus, then I should have ðŸ˜Š


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## be positive (3 October 2019)

Bernster said:



			Well, yes, thatâ€™s market dynamics.  Maybe Iâ€™m in a minority and yes itâ€™s a chunk of money but I donâ€™t begrudge livery costs as itâ€™s not an easy job or industry.  Iâ€™m hugely grateful to those who look after my horses and appreciate the hard work and long hours

If I havenâ€™t said that enough Aus, then I should have ðŸ˜Š
		
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I think you are in the minority but the ad in the OP  reads as if it is for a private competition yard not livery so it is rather irrelevant, they want to 'employ' a full time YM without the expenses involved with employing them, the job is full time so what they are doing is illegal and if an agency is involved they should not be acting for clients who are trying to avoid the employment laws and get their hobby subsidised, they say it is a pro yard but with only 8 horses it is unlikely to be running as a proper business, although it helps if they are cutting corners.


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## Rowreach (3 October 2019)

be positive said:



			I think you are in the minority but the ad in the OP  reads as if it is for a private competition yard not livery so it is rather irrelevant, they want to 'employ' a full time YM without the expenses involved with employing them, the job is full time so what they are doing is illegal and if an agency is involved they should not be acting for clients who are trying to avoid the employment laws and get their hobby subsidised, they say it is a pro yard but with only 8 horses it is unlikely to be running as a proper business, although it helps if they are cutting corners.
		
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Exactly, the salary is neither here nor there if they are flying in the face of employment legislation.

However it raises the conundrum of how equestrian businesses can continue to function if they are paying realistic salaries, pension contributions, being properly insured, paying business rates etc etc and clients don't "come into the 21st century" and start paying realistic livery charges.


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## be positive (3 October 2019)

Rowreach said:



			Exactly, the salary is neither here nor there if they are flying in the face of employment legislation.

However it raises the conundrum of how equestrian businesses can continue to function if they are paying realistic salaries, pension contributions, being properly insured, paying business rates etc etc and clients don't "come into the 21st century" and start paying realistic livery charges.
		
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Apart from the racing industry the equine world is going to struggle to catch up if owners will not or cannot pay realistic prices, I really do not know how many yards keep going and suspect most are subsidised by an outside income which means most are subsidising their clients hobby to keep going.


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## dogatemysalad (3 October 2019)

The dog kennel industry  is more of a scandal. Kennel workers earn even less while the cost of putting a dog into kennels is higher than paying full livery for a horse.


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## Bernster (3 October 2019)

MIght has been confusing folks but I was responding to the post above my reply, not directly to the OP.  But yes there is the separate point about employment status.  I know my yard does employ and meets these costs, as whenever those costs go up, so does the bill.


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## EllenJay (3 October 2019)

Why is being self employed in this position illegal? Genuine question. Thanks


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## ponymum (3 October 2019)

EllenJay said:



			Why is being self employed in this position illegal? Genuine question. Thanks
		
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It's a way of avoiding paying the correct amount of tax and national insurance as these are different for employees and self-employed. Also an employer now has to provide a pension, pay holiday etc. An employee has more rights than a self-employed contractor. There are certain "tests" that a position has to meet to be deemed self-employed: one of these is that you can set your own hours, or even send someone else to do the job in your place if you want to. You would also have the ability to work for more than one employer. 
Unfortunately, some unscrupulous employers force their staff to be self-employed but HMRC are clamping down.


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## EllenJay (3 October 2019)

But that isn't illegal.  If you are self employed you still have to pay tax and NI, it may be unethical in this case. The IR35 tests don't include anything about setting your own your hours. There is a clause about autonomy and substitution.

It is obvious in this particular case the prospective employer is trying to save costs, which as I said above is unethical.  But what if someone is a freelance instructor, is already self employed, and can fit this work around their teaching. They could possibly fulfill all the IR35 rules and therefore be able to take up this role, along with their teaching commitments?


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## milliepops (3 October 2019)

be positive said:



			Apart from the racing industry the equine world is going to struggle to catch up if owners will not or cannot pay realistic prices, I really do not know how many yards keep going and suspect most are subsidised by an outside income which means most are subsidising their clients hobby to keep going.
		
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Many yards I've been on have started up taking DIYs to subsidise the YO's hobby    Until the one I'm on now, I've never been on a yard where the YO's sole income was from their liveries.

tbf it's shown in the standard of the places. I'm just about teetering on not being able to afford 2 boxes where I am now because it's more than double what I paid before but it's run very well and I never have any concerns about the horses.  Low prices have enabled me to me more than a one horse owner but I totally accept that it is not a proper business model.


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## ihatework (3 October 2019)

EllenJay said:



			But that isn't illegal.  If you are self employed you still have to pay tax and NI, it may be unethical in this case. The IR35 tests don't include anything about setting your own your hours. There is a clause about autonomy and substitution.

It is obvious in this particular case the prospective employer is trying to save costs, which as I said above is unethical.  But what if someone is a freelance instructor, is already self employed, and can fit this work around their teaching. They could possibly fulfill all the IR35 rules and therefore be able to take up this role, along with their teaching commitments?
		
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A self employed person could indeed take the role, they could opt to work outside IR35 if the â€˜employersâ€™ working conditions allowed this, or they could run it inside IR35.

However no-one semi literate in employment law would take a job advertised in the 8.50-9.50ph as self employed, sheer lunacy and would leave them completely unprotected. The employers here are pulling a fast one.


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## Rowreach (3 October 2019)

ihatework said:



			A self employed person could indeed take the role, they could opt to work outside IR35 if the â€˜employersâ€™ working conditions allowed this, or they could run it inside IR35.

However no-one semi literate in employment law would take a job advertised in the 8.50-9.50ph as self employed, sheer lunacy and would leave them completely unprotected. The employers here are pulling a fast one.
		
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Also, a "self employed person" would not get away with making a tax return showing only one "employer".


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## ihatework (3 October 2019)

Rowreach said:



			Also, a "self employed person" would not get away with making a tax return showing only one "employer".
		
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Thatâ€™s debatable depending on the circumstances, they certainly could if they declared it inside IR35, but the way this advert is written it is pretty much employment in this case.

Itâ€™ll be a moot point come April when some employers are in for a shock!


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## dixie (3 October 2019)

IR35 is for personal service companies only, not sole traders.
However sole traders need to meet the "Badges of Trade" and by only working for one person and their hours, with their tools then they are not classed as self employed, they should be under PAYE.
The "employee" is dipping out from holiday pay, sick pay, pensions etc etc
The employer is currently gaining by not paying the above plus employers NI unless they have an investigation and then they will end up coughing the tax and NI anyway and probably with interest and penalties.
Whether they will ever be caught is another matter though.


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## Goldenstar (3 October 2019)

I use self employed grooms .
Thereâ€™s a huge difference is they are self employed they choose if they want to work when I need them if they donâ€™t I either do it myself or ask someone else .
They all work for other people in a variety of roles .
They are also not working many hours a week for me .
Often jobs like this can be an attempt to NI contributions


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## paddy555 (3 October 2019)

dixie said:



			unless they have an investigation and then they will end up coughing the tax and NI anyway and probably with interest and penalties.
Whether they will ever be caught is another matter though.
		
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the follow on of course from that is  if they are failing to operate PAYE what else are they doing. Might be a good idea to have at look at their business account just to make sure no problems in that area.


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## Pearlsasinger (3 October 2019)

EllenJay said:



			But that isn't illegal.  If you are self employed you still have to pay tax and NI, it may be unethical in this case. The IR35 tests don't include anything about setting your own your hours. There is a clause about autonomy and substitution.

It is obvious in this particular case the prospective employer is trying to save costs, which as I said above is unethical.  But what if someone is a freelance instructor, is already self employed, and can fit this work around their teaching. They could possibly fulfill all the IR35 rules and therefore be able to take up this role, along with their teaching commitments?
		
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It is illegal for the employer to advertise this f/t job as self-employment, it is f/t for the one employer


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## MotherOfChickens (3 October 2019)

dogatemysalad said:



			Full livery with exercise and hunter livery, including prep, bathing, plaiting etc, etc, locally, is around Â£130 per week. I've yet to hear anyone demanding the price should be increased.
		
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I know it depends on area but that sounds mad to me-near Watford in the late 80s full hunter livery was just below that-it included exercise but still, 30+ years ago!

I have posted this before but I remember a letter in H&H a very long time ago (i.e. decades), pointing out that only equestrianism would advertise a position that wanted the applicants to be skilful riding, handling, schooling, turning out and clipping expensive large beasts to a high standard, be able to work alone, work with young horses, drive an HGV, capable of looking after children and nannying kids and ponies for a pittance, and to be cheerful while doing it!


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## McFluff (3 October 2019)

EllenJay said:



			Why is being self employed in this position illegal? Genuine question. Thanks
		
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It is illegal in an employment law context because it would not pass the tests of employment. These are:

Mutuality of obligation - I.e. does Either party have any obligation to either offer or accept hours
Right of substitution - is personal service required or can the person send a suitably qualified substitute to work the hours
Control - how much control is exerted during the provision of services, ie is the person told how to do a task
Whether there is consequence from a breach of employment law will depend on whether the job holder challenges the arrangement (usually happens over sick pay, holiday pay or maternity). Itâ€™s stressful taking an employer to tribunal so many people put up or move on. So employers like the one in the above advert get away with it. 

The other risk that they will carry is a challenge from the inland revenue. Their tests are more likely to find employment than the ones above (the .gov website is good). The inland revenue are much more likely to Chase the employer.  Their incentive is back payments of missed employer NI  payments.  

Any person can be employed and have self employed work. Anyone taking the above contract should be employed, even if they also have self employed work. 

Iâ€™ve tried to give an overview - there is lots of case law to further refine the detail above.


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## Rowreach (3 October 2019)

MotherOfChickens said:



			I know it depends on area but that sounds mad to me-near Watford in the late 80s full hunter livery was just below that-it included exercise but still, 30+ years ago!

I have posted this before but I remember a letter in H&H a very long time ago (i.e. decades), pointing out that only equestrianism would advertise a position that wanted the applicants to be skilful riding, handling, schooling, turning out and clipping expensive large beasts to a high standard, be able to work alone, work with young horses, drive an HGV, capable of looking after children and nannying kids and ponies for a pittance, and to be cheerful while doing it!
		
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I was charging Â£125 per week for full hunter livery in 2000, with extras on top of that, in the south of England. And even then it probably wasnâ€™t enough.


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## honetpot (5 October 2019)

EllenJay said:



			But that isn't illegal.  If you are self employed you still have to pay tax and NI, it may be unethical in this case. The IR35 tests don't include anything about setting your own your hours. There is a clause about autonomy and substitution.

It is obvious in this particular case the prospective employer is trying to save costs, which as I said above is unethical.  But what if someone is a freelance instructor, is already self employed, and can fit this work around their teaching. They could possibly fulfill all the IR35 rules and therefore be able to take up this role, along with their teaching commitments?
		
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If you work in one place and your hours are set by the employer, you are not working at that job as self employed although you may registered as self employed. Why would anyone not to be paid by PAYE, with all the protection it gives in employment law.

 I employ a freelance helper, her hours worked for me are based on her availability,I can not dictate her hours, and she works few weekly hours, so she is self employed.
 I used to do a lot of agency work, some people used an umbrella company, this loophole has been closed.


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## Yardbird (5 October 2019)

To be self employed you set your pay rate and invoice for the work done.


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## dominobrown (7 October 2019)

I employ a part time employee. It is crippling to a small business. If she needs maternity I cannot afford to replace her, and I am unsure whether I would just have to shut the business.
I compelety agree that employment in the "horse world" needs to change, but its not exactly like YO are rolling about in wads of cash. I havent had a wage in 3 years now. 
For me to take a wage, and employ someone full time, with slightly more than minimum wage livery prices would be to be at least double what they are.
Think the whole horse industry needs to wake up!


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## ester (7 October 2019)

What I don't understand then is why people don't put their livery prices up.... People have been talking about the real costs for years. It's like we need some sort of reset? It's always the customers not wanting to pay more that are blamed, but they are just paying what is asked. I don't think most people are negotiating that down.


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## milliepops (7 October 2019)

ester said:



			What I don't understand then is why people don't put their livery prices up.... People have been talking about the real costs for years. It's like we need some sort of reset? It's always the customers not wanting to pay more that are blamed, but they are just paying what is asked. I don't think most people are negotiating that down.
		
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agreed, my yard is expensive for the area but has very long term clients so clearly people are prepared to pay for a good place.  I wouldn't ever move to a yard and then *offer* to pay more than what the YO is asking though!!


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## be positive (7 October 2019)

I think the base line for DIY is so low in most areas that to get the prices up would probably mean most would have a 100% increase and many owners would be forced to give up or look for cheaper and there will always be a place prepared to undercut.
A few years ago the owner of a local DIY yard had a meltdown and got rid of most of her liveries, just before that happened we met out riding and I asked her how it was going and what she charged I was shocked to find it was Â£18 per week, she has a decent yard, plenty of turn out but does restrict or stop in winter and no arena, at the time I was charging Â£40 for assisted DIY and still feel that is low, she has put the price up and is still busy but it is probably still lower than it should be.
Local full livery yards are now more realistic at around Â£175 per week for somewhere fairly smart but there are still very cheap options if you look around and are not fussy about facilities.


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## milliepops (7 October 2019)

I think the thing is livery prices never change. I have been on one yard (out of about 8 or so over the years) where there was a price increase for the DIYs.

The place I was on before this was Â£25 a week 6 or 7 years ago when I first went there, and was still Â£25 a week last year.
At some point I expect it will become uneconomic and she will have to put prices up and it will be a shock (bit like when farriers finally put up prices and everyone moans!) but up to now the solution to propping the business up has been to add extra boxes and reduce the turnout available to existing clients.


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## ester (7 October 2019)

DIY I think throws a bit of a spanner in the works of 'costing' as many are running it just because it means the cost of keeping their own is then zero'd and most don't have staff costs to cover. So there will often be people running it relatively cheap with good facilities because they want them for their own horses.


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## Clodagh (7 October 2019)

The Fuzzy Furry said:



			Potential employees could be far better off at a local supermarket in the warm and dry......
		
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That's me! Worked with horses for years, got little recognition, carpal tunnel and sciatica. I now stack shelves, I don't smell, I'm not crippled and I'm no worse off financially.


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## Rowreach (7 October 2019)

In England I had no problem charging a proper rate for the service and facilities I provided and increasing it when necessary in line with costs. That was 20 years ago. Over here I wouldnâ€™t be able to charge anything like that rate today, people here would just go, they donâ€™t seem to value good service, good facilities, good practice, they just want it to be cheap. And thereâ€™s beggar all customer loyalty either. I am SO glad I gave it up (and then had people expressing their amazement that I wasnâ€™t available to take their horses when they needed me to ðŸ™„). 

The plain fact is that if livery yards were run as a proper business, paying proper wages, charging proper prices, then the average person wouldnâ€™t be able to afford to keep a horse.


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## Rowreach (7 October 2019)

Clodagh said:



			That's me! Worked with horses for years, got little recognition, carpal tunnel and sciatica. I now stack shelves, I don't smell, I'm not crippled and I'm no worse off financially.
		
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Iâ€™m still working outdoors, getting rained on, still doing early mornings and occasionally getting muddy, but I donâ€™t smell anymore either ðŸ™‚


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## ester (7 October 2019)

I can't really afford one already . I'm pretty average (F's not 'technically' mine  )


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## SEL (7 October 2019)

ester said:



			What I don't understand then is why people don't put their livery prices up.... People have been talking about the real costs for years. It's like we need some sort of reset? It's always the customers not wanting to pay more that are blamed, but they are just paying what is asked. I don't think most people are negotiating that down.
		
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I've thought that for a while too. When I was looking for a new yard earlier this year I wasn't hugely price sensitive - but I did want decent all year round turnout. So many yards were over stocked in order to keep DIY at around Â£35 per week (South East) and had horses on tiny over-grazed paddocks.

It also means when the property developers come calling the land owners can't wait to sell up and make some decent money. Hard to argue with them really.

I feel very, very lucky to be on the yard I'm on now and have told both horses to polish their halos and behave.


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## Orangehorse (7 October 2019)

HMRC are on the warpath as far as "self employed" people are concerned, and they are certainly aware of the practice in the horse industry.


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## Firefly9410 (7 October 2019)

This in spades.! It is always customers being blamed for yard owner's poor business decisions. I think yard owners are scared to put prices up to what is needed to run a business out of fear that most of the customer would leave and the yard owner would have to face the reality that their business was not a viable one! Which they would not want to do because as @milliepops points out a lot of them are running a yard in the first place as a way of subsidising their own hobby. 

I get annoyed too about yard owners farmers etc claiming skint whilst forgetting the detached house they live in with land and all the horses they own which they are not paying livery for. A 20box DIY yard at Â£30 a week each is a lot of money. It is more than minimum wage even factoring expenses and time if yard owner spent 9-5 working on yard maintenance and paperwork which I am fairly sure they do not. The yard owner is not skint exactly they have just spent their money is all! If they had a regular job likely they would feel just as skint after bills like most people do. Only they could not afford a big detached house and pay livery for multiple horses with a regular job. So all the Too Skint To Pay Employee Properly gets to me. Either shut up moaning pay staff properly and be grateful customers fund their lifestyle of big house land and horses or charge what they think is necessary for proper business. Plenty people can genuinely afford a horse if livery goes up and would be pleases at proper maintenance and customer service. Not treated like a nuisance like livery clients sometimes are.



ester said:



			What I don't understand then is why people don't put their livery prices up.... People have been talking about the real costs for years. It's like we need some sort of reset? It's always the customers not wanting to pay more that are blamed, but they are just paying what is asked. I don't think most people are negotiating that down.
		
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## Rowreach (7 October 2019)

Firefly9410 said:



			This in spades.! It is always customers being blamed for yard owner's poor business decisions. I think yard owners are scared to put prices up to what is needed to run a business out of fear that most of the customer would leave and the yard owner would have to face the reality that their business was not a viable one! Which they would not want to do because as @milliepops points out a lot of them are running a yard in the first place as a way of subsidising their own hobby.

I get annoyed too about yard owners farmers etc claiming skint whilst forgetting the detached house they live in with land and all the horses they own which they are not paying livery for. *A 20box DIY yard at Â£30 a week each is a lot of money*. It is more than minimum wage even factoring expenses and time if yard owner spent 9-5 working on yard maintenance and paperwork which I am fairly sure they do not. The yard owner is not skint exactly they have just spent their money is all! If they had a regular job likely they would feel just as skint after bills like most people do. Only they could not afford a big detached house and pay livery for multiple horses with a regular job. So all the Too Skint To Pay Employee Properly gets to me. Either shut up moaning pay staff properly and be grateful customers fund their lifestyle of big house land and horses or charge what they think is necessary for proper business. Plenty people can genuinely afford a horse if livery goes up and would be pleases at proper maintenance and customer service. Not treated like a nuisance like livery clients sometimes are.
		
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That reads as if you have a rather large chip on your shoulder ....

Â£600 a week is damn all when you have to pay mortgage, business rates, insurance, tax, wages, water charges, electricity, maintenance for stabling, fencing, land, arena, not to mention feed yourself, run a car, clothe your children and pay the gas bill.  Not to mention put up with all the interesting human interactions that are part and parcel of being a YO and generally be working 24/7 ...

But hey, aren't we lucky to live in a nice house with a few stables and keep our own horse "free of charge" ...


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## ihatework (7 October 2019)

Rowreach said:



			That reads as if you have a rather large chip on your shoulder ....

Â£600 a week is damn all when you have to pay mortgage, business rates, insurance, tax, wages, water charges, electricity, maintenance for stabling, fencing, land, arena, not to mention feed yourself, run a car, clothe your children and pay the gas bill.  Not to mention put up with all the interesting human interactions that are part and parcel of being a YO and generally be working 24/7 ...

But hey, aren't we lucky to live in a nice house with a few stables and keep our own horse "free of charge" ... 

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That really was spoken with a true DIY mentality wasnâ€™t it! 

I admire anyone that can run a livery yard commercially and can make it pay and not have a mental breakdown in the process!


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## Clodagh (7 October 2019)

Firefly9410 said:



			I get annoyed too about yard owners farmers etc claiming skint whilst forgetting the detached house they live in with land and all the horses they own which they are not paying livery for. A 20box DIY yard at Â£30 a week each is a lot of money. It is more than minimum wage even factoring expenses and time if yard owner spent 9-5 working on yard maintenance and paperwork which I am fairly sure they do not. The yard owner is not skint exactly they have just spent their money is all! If they had a regular job likely they would feel just as skint after bills like most people do. Only they could not afford a big detached house and pay livery for multiple horses with a regular job. So all the Too Skint To Pay Employee Properly gets to me. Either shut up moaning pay staff properly and be grateful customers fund their lifestyle of big house land and horses or charge what they think is necessary for proper business. Plenty people can genuinely afford a horse if livery goes up and would be pleases at proper maintenance and customer service. Not treated like a nuisance like livery clients sometimes are.
		
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Gosh! Farmer hatred in spades!
Of course, if they didn't have horses shitting everywhere, breaking things and destroying the fields they could go and do something else. (Not sure what exactly) that wouldn't involve dealing with the general public. Many people with horses at livery are certifiably nuts, in my experience. Nobody needs to keep your horse for you, you know, you choose to have him. Everyone wants well maintained paddocks, decent hay, plenty of storage.


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## Firefly9410 (7 October 2019)

You are not living in the real world then. Lots of people will never be able to earn Â£600 per week at any point in their lives. That is reality. And everyone has either mortgage or rent and bills to pay. Some people's is less because they live in a tiny home. Lots of people have children too including low earners. I have a problem with people who are living in some degree of privilege who are not only scraping by without any luxuries like lots of people do and they are not recognising the privilege of their situation regardless of whether inherited or worked for and instead complain of being skint whilst putting their staff into real poverty by not paying properly or providing employees rights.


Rowreach said:



			That reads as if you have a rather large chip on your shoulder ....

Â£600 a week is damn all when you have to pay mortgage, business rates, insurance, tax, wages, water charges, electricity, maintenance for stabling, fencing, land, arena, not to mention feed yourself, run a car, clothe your children and pay the gas bill.  Not to mention put up with all the interesting human interactions that are part and parcel of being a YO and generally be working 24/7 ...

But hey, aren't we lucky to live in a nice house with a few stables and keep our own horse "free of charge" ... 

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## dominobrown (7 October 2019)

Its the maintenance costs people don't see and insurance where my money goes. Even to have DIYs (also have full) one DIY with 2 horses basically just about covers the insurance bill. 
Then there are things like getting rid of the muckheap... contractors where costing about Â£700  a year to dispose of it. Now we have tractors, muck spreaders, more land, sheep,  harrows, rollers, toppers. Do you have a clue how much these cost? Post knockers to do fencing.... 
General maintenance then yard improvements. I could also do with a quad and a new harrow for the arena.
Buy all that and tell me how much change ypu have from Â£20k.
Does anyone know how much a post and rail fence costs, or new arena surface, or 100 bales of hay?!


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## dominobrown (7 October 2019)

Firefly9410 said:



			You are not living in the real world then. Lots of people will never be able to earn Â£600 per week at any point in their lives. That is reality. And everyone has either mortgage or rent and bills to pay. Some people's is less because they live in a tiny home. Lots of people have children too including low earners. I have a problem with people who are living in some degree of privilege who are not only scraping by without any luxuries like lots of people do and they are not recognising the privilege of their situation regardless of whether inherited or worked for and instead complain of being skint whilst putting their staff into real poverty by not paying properly or providing employees rights.
		
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No one is earning Â£600 a week... take all the costs off and then god forbid the YO may want a small salary also?


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## ester (7 October 2019)

The thing is I think lots of us do know how much these things cost. In fact it always feels a bit patronising when it's suggested liveries don't.  ergo 'they just don't know the cost of things that's why they won't pay a sustainable rate' see previous note about paying what is charged.


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## Clodagh (7 October 2019)

dominobrown said:



			Its the maintenance costs people don't see and insurance where my money goes. Even to have DIYs (also have full) one DIY with 2 horses basically just about covers the insurance bill.
Then there are things like getting rid of the muckheap... contractors where costing about Â£700  a year to dispose of it. Now we have tractors, muck spreaders, more land, sheep,  harrows, rollers, toppers. Do you have a clue how much these cost? Post knockers to do fencing....
General maintenance then yard improvements. I could also do with a quad and a new harrow for the arena.
Buy all that and tell me how much change ypu have from Â£20k.
Does anyone know how much a post and rail fence costs, or new arena surface, or 100 bales of hay?!
		
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Man down the road had his long, narrow 10 acres fenced with post and rail and stock netting to keep dogs out and it cost Â£7000. Many people have absolutely no idea of the costs.


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## Clodagh (7 October 2019)

ester said:



			The thing is I think lots of us do know how much these things cost. In fact it always feels a bit patronising when it's suggested liveries don't.  ergo 'they just don't know the cost of things that's why they won't pay a sustainable rate' see previous note about paying what is charged.
		
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But you look at Firefly and she just thinks people who live in big houses should keep other peoples horses at a subsidised rate. So, either she has no idea or she doesn't care. Perhaps she is not representative of the general horse owning public but of the many I have met over the years most think the yard should look like Carl Hester's pad and cost Â£100 for full livery.


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## dominobrown (7 October 2019)

ester said:



			The thing is I think lots of us do know how much these things cost. In fact it always feels a bit patronising when it's suggested liveries don't.  ergo 'they just don't know the cost of things that's why they won't pay a sustainable rate' see previous note about paying what is charged.
		
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Oh I know a lot of liveries do. Milliepops mentioned that her yard is more expensive but well maintained etc so a lot of liveries do cotton on that the Â£20 a week diy yard is rough as hell. Problem is those who are subdised... lady down the road from me charges Â£80 a week for breaking and schooling!!

Also my quote function isnt working properly.


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## ester (7 October 2019)

I think the 'subsidised' ones make it tricky, ie some yard owners will be mortgage free with other good sources of income so can run a small yard without some of the costs that those who still have to cover that side have.


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## Clodagh (7 October 2019)

ester said:



			I think the 'subsidised' ones make it tricky, ie some yard owners will be mortgage free with other good sources of income so can run a small yard without some of the costs that those who still have to cover that side have.
		
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That is true, and lucky is the livery person who has their horse in one.


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## Firefly9410 (7 October 2019)

And farmers and yard owners have the right to do another job if they wish. If they choose farming or yard owning then bitch about their clients I have no sympathy. Nobody is forced to run livery like I said go do something else if livery makes them miserable or put prices up if want to earn more. Either clients stay because they like yard and can afford new price and yard owner happy with increases price or clients leave because unhappy or cannot afford it and business fails then yard owner finds new job and is hopefully happier. No hatred for farmers from me only annoyed with people who are really not hard done by at all complaining that they are. We all make our choices in life. Some people have more choices or better choices available than others. I choose to keep a horse on basic livery with pleasant yard owners cost is not the main factor. If cost is low I expect and happy to maintain fence weeds leaks and that also storage for feed bin x2 rug rail in stable few bales hay happy to source weekly. Not everyone is unreasonable. If nutty livery clients get you down change your life not bitch and moan and make clients feel unwelcome like what happens on some yards.


Clodagh said:



			Gosh! Farmer hatred in spades!
Of course, if they didn't have horses shitting everywhere, breaking things and destroying the fields they could go and do something else. (Not sure what exactly) that wouldn't involve dealing with the general public. Many people with horses at livery are certifiably nuts, in my experience. Nobody needs to keep your horse for you, you know, you choose to have him. Everyone wants well maintained paddocks, decent hay, plenty of storage.
		
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## milliepops (7 October 2019)

well the other thing about where mine are now, is he's not afraid of having a couple of empty boxes. The long term clients aren't about to up and leave so having a few empty stables isn't the difference between a viable business and going under.
It's not perfect but it's a yard that does stand out above the other local offerings, both in terms of having a sane and sensible YO, no yard politics and good tidy facilities.

There will always be the ones operating at the bottom end of the market and I understand that pricing realistically to run a good service would put ownership outside the reach of many people who scrape along at those really budget yards.

As a YO I think you have to make a decision which way to go though rather than trying to please everyone. A smaller number of happy clients has got to be less stress than double the number who are butting heads half the time. But it's a long term game to build up a business like that.  Tricky to pull off these days.

FWIW I do understand the costs, I have field kept horses that we look after entirely with all the maintenance that involves and OH does a fair bit of contract type work for local yards so I see both sides of it.


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## Firefly9410 (7 October 2019)

And they are gerting a salary and it is being spent on the bills of everyday life like what happens to everyone. If you break even with livery fees versus business and life expenses but you live in a big house with land in beautiful surrounding and 4 horses and get to choose your working hours because you are the boss , then you are doing better than someone who breaks even wages versus expenses and lives in a one bedroom flat in a scummy block in a rough part of town with no horse and works the hours their employer chooses. See what you have. Appreciate it. That is the point I am saying.


dominobrown said:



			No one is earning Â£600 a week... take all the costs off and then god forbid the YO may want a small salary also?
		
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## Rowreach (7 October 2019)

Firefly9410 said:



			You are not living in the real world then. Lots of people will never be able to earn Â£600 per week at any point in their lives. That is reality. And everyone has either mortgage or rent and bills to pay. Some people's is less because they live in a tiny home. Lots of people have children too including low earners. I have a problem with people who are living in some degree of privilege who are not only scraping by without any luxuries like lots of people do and they are not recognising the privilege of their situation regardless of whether inherited or worked for and instead complain of being skint whilst putting their staff into real poverty by not paying properly or providing employees rights.
		
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But you don't see the difference in going out to a job and earning Â£600 (or whatever amount you want to put in there), which is earnings that you can allocate whatever way you want to or need to, and having a Â£600 income from liveries (for example) with which you have to run your business as well as having to live off it.

Again, your post just sounds like you resent anyone who you consider "privileged".


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## Firefly9410 (7 October 2019)

No Row reach I onyl resent the ones who are bitching about being hard done by and using that as an excuse to rip off their employees like the advert in the original post.Or the ones who use their unhappiness at their lives as an excuse to act in a bad manner to their customers.


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## Pearlsasinger (7 October 2019)

We had a livery once, she was a friend, we did it as a favour - never again!


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## Rowreach (7 October 2019)

Firefly9410 said:



			Either shut up moaning pay staff properly and *be grateful customers fund their lifestyle of big house land and horses* or charge what they think is necessary for proper business.
		
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Firefly9410 said:



			No Row reach I onyl resent the ones who are bitching about being hard done by and using that as an excuse to rip off their employees like the advert in the original post.Or the ones who use their unhappiness at their lives as an excuse to act in a bad manner to their customers.
		
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Why resent anyone?  Each to their own.  If you don't like people like that, don't keep your horse there and don't go to work for them.


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## Firefly9410 (7 October 2019)

@Rowreach. Because I care about other people! An industry you can only work in it if you tolerate being ripped off. That is not right so I stand up and say so. And nobody wants to move to what they think is a nice yard only to discover that the yard owner is not happy with their own prices or their lives and takes it out on the liveries. Not nice for the liveries or their horses who have to then move home again . Would gladly never keep my horse at such a yard as I suspect would many others. Maybe yard owners could help with that be more honest say at viewing yes I want your money no I do not want liveries really though. Never going to happen is it so yes I resent the existence of those people.


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## Clodagh (7 October 2019)

Rowreach said:



			Why resent anyone?  Each to their own.  If you don't like people like that, don't keep your horse there and don't go to work for them.
		
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Firefly is an angry young person!


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## Clodagh (7 October 2019)

Pearlsasinger said:



			We had a livery once, she was a friend, we did it as a favour - never again!
		
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Oh God, same here. I rang her once to say her horse had colic, and explained what I had done so far, she said 'Oh that's great, call me if it gets any worse?' that was at 10pm.


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## Sussexbythesea (8 October 2019)

Clodagh said:



			Oh God, same here. I rang her once to say her horse had colic, and explained what I had done so far, she said 'Oh that's great, call me if it gets any worse?' that was at 10pm.
		
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My horse had colic once where I was paying around Â£700 a month  livery. Firstly she didnâ€™t recognise colic and secondly she left me to it and wouldnâ€™t even do a late night check. I lived 20 miles away at the time so I sat in my car on my own in the dark on an empty yard until I could be sure that he was ok.

I think we can all point to people who are unreasonable.


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## milliepops (8 October 2019)

Sussexbythesea said:



			I think we can all point to people who are unreasonable.
		
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definitely.

Horse on our yard colicked recently and owner also did the "call me if it gets worse" thing but she's a total novice and possibly didn't realise what she was saying. Fortunately YO is very hands on.

I had a call from a yard once saying my horse was colicking so they had called the vet (great, that's what I would hope for and the agreement I had with them). It was a 30 min drive so I shot out of work and headed over, to find a very very excited, shaking sweaty horse listening to the hounds, several hills away  YO was a bit sheepish but I was happy that they had taken action even if they hadn't realised my silly horse was just hunting mad


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## SEL (8 October 2019)

Whereas the yard I have just moved from (housing developers bought it) had 2 fatal colics while I was there. Both elderly horses and in each instance the yard staff went above and beyond. Not only did they spot the colic, stay with the horse, call the vet, support the owner, be with the horse when it was PTS but also arranged for the removal - with tears flooding down their face and knowing full well that however bad they were feeling the owner was a million times worse.

There are always going to be yards and YO which aren't great, but let's not tar them all with the same brush!

And like MP I'd rather pay the call out charge for the false alarm than be the one in tears because the vet came too late.


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## Goldenstar (8 October 2019)

Firefly9410 said:



			You are not living in the real world then. Lots of people will never be able to earn Â£600 per week at any point in their lives. That is reality. And everyone has either mortgage or rent and bills to pay. Some people's is less because they live in a tiny home. Lots of people have children too including low earners. I have a problem with people who are living in some degree of privilege who are not only scraping by without any luxuries like lots of people do and they are not recognising the privilege of their situation regardless of whether inherited or worked for and instead complain of being skint whilst putting their staff into real poverty by not paying properly or providing employees rights.
		
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This is why I will never ever have livery .
Just imagine having someone with mentality at your home every day .


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## abb123 (8 October 2019)

Goldenstar said:



			This is why I will never ever have livery .
Just imagine having someone with mentality at your home every day .
		
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Isn't this part of the problem though? You see it as your home and she sees it as a business?

I see it from both sides. I have had horses on DIY and had my own land where I have had to do everything myself. I also have lodgers. I understand how much everything costs and how annoying demanding clients are.

But it does frustrate me immensely when I see comments along the lines of DIYers wont pay what it is worth. It is your business, charge what you need to!! I wouldn't have a lodger and charge them less than what would make it worth while. I would rather have an empty room! I have also had to tell lodgers to leave when they don't fit in or get too demanding or don't follow the rules. It isn't hard.


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## Goldenstar (8 October 2019)

Its not hard but it would be a complete pita


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## ihatework (8 October 2019)

I get what you are saying abb123 - 
Anyone that takes money for a service (eg Livery) canâ€™t realistically expect it to be money for nothing - there will always be an element of defining the deal and managing the deal. No one is forcing someone to offer livery, if you donâ€™t want to manage a livery yard donâ€™t offer it (it really is that simple). If however you do offer it, then you need to work out how much you need to charge to make it pay and be worth the â€˜hassleâ€™, which there will be some. 
If you choose to go that route then you only have yourself to blame if you under charge and mismanage. If liveries wonâ€™t pay what you need then you donâ€™t have a viable business and should look elsewhere for employment.


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## ycbm (8 October 2019)

Why is Firefly being given a hard time for getting annoyed about the kind of bad livery owners which other people start whole threads about?  S/he isn't criticising all liveries, just the ones who moan to their liveries about their own lot while clearly having a decent lifestyle and paying their staff a pittance, this last being what the thread was about in the first place.



.


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## Rowreach (8 October 2019)

ycbm said:



			Why is Firefly being given a hard time for getting annoyed about the kind of bad livery owners which other people start whole threads about?  S/he isn't criticising all liveries, just the ones who moan to their liveries about their own lot while clearly having a decent lifestyle and paying their staff a pittance, this last being what the thread was about in the first place.



.
		
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Probably because she didnâ€™t actually clarify that point until about her fifth post, and her first few posts were rants about over privileged people living in nice big houses with stables and land?


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## Rowreach (8 October 2019)

Duplicate


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## Firefly9410 (8 October 2019)

Oh I missed this earlier clodah. No I absolutely do not think livery yards (whatever size house they live in) should keep people's horses at subsidised rates. I have never said that. 


Clodagh said:



			But you look at Firefly and she just thinks people who live in big houses should keep other peoples horses at a subsidised rate. So, either she has no idea or she doesn't care. Perhaps she is not representative of the general horse owning public but of the many I have met over the years most think the yard should look like Carl Hester's pad and cost Â£100 for full livery.
		
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## Firefly9410 (8 October 2019)

No that is just what you chose to see. Like when you quoted one of my posts with part of a sentence bolded out as if the rest of the sentence which put the comment in context did not exist. I have no problem whatsoever with people living in big houses with land and I never did. Have a problem with some of those people for their aattitude and the misery they spread throughout others lives, but not for where they live. I think my posts were clear enough to anyone who wanted to actually read them.

Really quite shocked at how much it has needed spelling out to some people that if they have a business it will need managing and that manager is them and also that people can view themselves as hard up just because they do not have spare cash left atr the end of the month (having spent it all on whatever they needed or chose to). Sad for people to be so unhappy when they have so much but just cannot see it.


Rowreach said:



			Probably because she didnâ€™t actually clarify that point until about her fifth post, and her first few posts were rants about over privileged people living in nice big houses with stables and land?
		
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## ycbm (8 October 2019)

Rowreach said:



			Probably because she didnâ€™t actually clarify that point until about her fifth post, and her first few posts were rants about over privileged people living in nice big houses with stables and land?
		
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Not so. This is her first post, my bolding, agreeing with the person who started the thread that yard owners often don't pay staff well.



Firefly9410 said:



			I get annoyed too about *yard owners farmers etc claiming skint *whilst forgetting the detached house they live in with land and all the horses they own which they are not paying livery for. A 20box DIY yard at Â£30 a week each is a lot of money. It is more than minimum wage even factoring expenses and time if yard owner spent 9-5 working on yard maintenance and paperwork which I am fairly sure they do not. The yard owner is not skint exactly they have just spent their money is all! If they had a regular job likely they would feel just as skint after bills like most people do. Only they could not afford a big detached house and pay livery for multiple horses with a regular job. *So all the Too Skint To Pay Employee Properly *gets to me. Either shut up moaning pay staff properly and be grateful customers fund their lifestyle of big house land and horses or charge what they think is necessary for proper business. Plenty people can genuinely afford a horse if livery goes up and would be pleases at proper maintenance and customer service. Not treated like a nuisance like livery clients sometimes are.
		
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## honetpot (8 October 2019)

I think that is nothing in general to do with people owning big farms and land, they usually have accountants and are well aware of employment law and they are added to the payroll.
 Everyone wants cheap livery but very few want to pay the real rate for the facilities and labour. How many people actually make a living from these yards, and then when they employ people why on earth would they pay the NMW and give their employment rights, because they are not making any money, or they are totally unaware of their responsibilities?
 Does your yard even have an a valid insurance certificate displayed? I have only seen them in large establishments.


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## abb123 (9 October 2019)

honetpot said:



			I think that is nothing in general to do with people owning big farms and land, they usually have accountants and are well aware of employment law and they are added to the payroll.
Everyone wants cheap livery but very few want to pay the real rate for the facilities and labour. How many people actually make a living from these yards, and then when they employ people why on earth would they pay the NMW and give their employment rights, because they are not making any money, or they are totally unaware of their responsibilities?
Does your yard even have an a valid insurance certificate displayed? I have only seen them in large establishments.
		
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I think the point here is that it isn't up to the client to demand that livery yard owners put their prices up so that they can pay what it should be.

Do you go into a shop and haggle up???

It is yard owners responsibility to charge an amount that makes it a viable business.

All DIY yards I have ever been on have had appropriate insurance.


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## Pearlsasinger (9 October 2019)

honetpot said:



			I think that is nothing in general to do with people owning big farms and land, they usually have accountants and are well aware of employment law and they are added to the payroll.
Everyone wants cheap livery but very few want to pay the real rate for the facilities and labour. How many people actually make a living from these yards, and then when they employ people why on earth would they pay the NMW and give their employment rights, because they are not making any money, or they are totally unaware of their responsibilities?
Does your yard even have an a valid insurance certificate displayed? I have only seen them in large establishments.
		
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A lot of people really can't afford to keep horses properly, so they seek out cheap Diy yards, that is the main problem.  those yards are cheap for a reason.

I can assure you that when we moved here, the increase in our mortgage cost *A LOT* more than the livery costs for 4 horses on a well-maintained yard, with pretty good facilities in a reasonable hacking area.  We certainly didn't move here to save money - and we had all our own maintenance to do on top of that.  Many people underestimate the cost of running a livery yard and are not prepared to pay a realistic amount to keep their horse on one..


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## EventingMum (9 October 2019)

As a YO I feel I have to speak up. On the surface, I probably look as though I have a nice lifestyle, decent house etc. I pay my staff properly including workplace pensions etc but not a huge amount, sadly I can't afford to. My overheads are high - rates, insurance, utilities, feed and bedding, maintenance etc so the income generated by my yard is quickly swallowed up to the point that on an hourly rate my staff earn way more than I do.  

I'm not moaning, my compensation is to able able to live where I do and keep my own horse but our living expenses are paid for buy by husband's earnings which are separate from the yard. I would love to pay my staff more, I genuinely appreciate their hard work but sadly my clients wouldn't pay more for livery etc so it's just not feasible, if I don't have clients there aren't jobs for the staff.  

If livery yards etc put their prices up enough to be able to pay their staff more many people wouldn't be able to afford horses and in the short term it would create a welfare crisis for some horses and unemployment for many staff. I honestly don't know what the answer is but please don't think all yard owners have a great lifestyle, yes I live in pleasant surroundings but it's hard going at times and selling up can sometimes look very attractive as I'd have money in the bank and could afford to take holidays etc. The flip side would be horse owners with nowhere to go and redundant staff which I wouldn't like to be responsible for either. It really isn't as black and white as people like Firefly9410 think it is!


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## BMWKIPP (9 October 2019)

Â£8.65 is above nation living wage so it's not peanuts.


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## BMWKIPP (9 October 2019)

And also everywhere that pays hourly does so on zero hour contracts these days. Therefore it is you OP that needs to come into the 21st century and realise this


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## windand rain (9 October 2019)

Saw a fancy ad for a job today that basically said you have to work like mad to do the job in time and we will pay you 2
Â£25 per session
 they wanted their new groom to arrive a 7am and work until 10am turnout, feed and muck out 7 stables make good the stables and fill hay nets water and make feeds for the night time. rural area so must have own transport


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## Red-1 (10 October 2019)

The thing is, the big houses and land with stabling did not just appear. These people did not just 'happen' to live in a big house, it all needed paying for initially. If they sold it, then they could get that money. No outgoings, no work, no hassle. Get the money and invest it. 

Over the past 5 years, even with Brexit uncertainty, people can expect to get 5% annually back on savings that are invested in stocks and shares. So, whatever the facilities cost, there also needs to be a 5% of the value added in for the loss of that money. IMO, it is this sum that is not factored in by yard owners, if being run as a purely business model. 

Â£600 a week is also not a wage at all once costs are taken out. Presumably the costs Firefly speaks of don't include the Tesco shopping, mobile phone, heating oil, petrol for personal car, clothes etc etc. along with the livery yard expenses. Â£600 a week may cover the costs of the actual yard, but that would not include household expenses. 

I don't see the relevance of people with low waged jobs or loads of kids not being able to afford a posh house. Presumably they can't afford a posh car or exotic holidays either. It does not mean that people with a nice house/land have to subsidise those who don't. 

I do agree that livery owners set their own prices and should price to what they think. When I did freelance teaching I set my rate at what I thought would make me feel good. Some 'better qualified' people charged less and thought I would have no clients, but I was good at what I offered, gave great value for money IMO, and never struggled to attract happy clients. I also stopped teaching anyone who I did not enjoy teaching. This kept me happy and fresh and better for the clients I did teach.

Our place (home) was once a livery yard and, in fact, still had a resident livery with 2 ponies when we purchased. The purchase was freehold, and when the old owners tried to pass the property over with the 2 ponies still here we were going to pull out. I was glad we stuck to our guns, when we moved in the stables were filthy, the fields trashed, litter all over. No way would I have a livery. 

If I did have liveries I would price it so I didn't mind, and ask anyone who did not fit in to leave. If that did not work then TBH I would rather sell up, invest the money and pay a decent amount for a proper service. Round here that would be around Â£160 a week for a service where you would not have to visit every day.


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## Sussexbythesea (10 October 2019)

BMWKIPP said:



			Â£8.65 is above nation living wage so it's not peanuts.
		
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It is for the job role in the advert though. Maybe not for someone who has no responsibility and very basic skills.


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## Sussexbythesea (10 October 2019)

Red-1 said:



			The thing is, the big houses and land with stabling did not just appear. These people did not just 'happen' to live in a big house, it all needed paying for initially. If they sold it, then they could get that money. No outgoings, no work, no hassle. Get the money and invest it.

Over the past 5 years, even with Brexit uncertainty, people can expect to get 5% annually back on savings that are invested in stocks and shares. So, whatever the facilities cost, there also needs to be a 5% of the value added in for the loss of that money. IMO, it is this sum that is not factored in by yard owners, if being run as a purely business model.

Â£600 a week is also not a wage at all once costs are taken out. Presumably the costs Firefly speaks of don't include the Tesco shopping, mobile phone, heating oil, petrol for personal car, clothes etc etc. along with the livery yard expenses. Â£600 a week may cover the costs of the actual yard, but that would not include household expenses.

I don't see the relevance of people with low waged jobs or loads of kids not being able to afford a posh house. Presumably they can't afford a posh car or exotic holidays either. It does not mean that people with a nice house/land have to subsidise those who don't.

I do agree that livery owners set their own prices and should price to what they think. When I did freelance teaching I set my rate at what I thought would make me feel good. Some 'better qualified' people charged less and thought I would have no clients, but I was good at what I offered, gave great value for money IMO, and never struggled to attract happy clients. I also stopped teaching anyone who I did not enjoy teaching. This kept me happy and fresh and better for the clients I did teach.

Our place (home) was once a livery yard and, in fact, still had a resident livery with 2 ponies when we purchased. The purchase was freehold, and when the old owners tried to pass the property over with the 2 ponies still here we were going to pull out. I was glad we stuck to our guns, when we moved in the stables were filthy, the fields trashed, litter all over. No way would I have a livery.

If I did have liveries I would price it so I didn't mind, and ask anyone who did not fit in to leave. If that did not work then TBH I would rather sell up, invest the money and pay a decent amount for a proper service. Round here that would be around Â£160 a week for a service where you would not have to visit every day.
		
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I actually offered a yard I was on more money to be able to increase my horses hay ration. It was clear they were on the cheap side for livery. However they totally refused the extra money and would not increase the hay. I used to arrive in the yard to ride about 6pm and my horse would be hay less. I couldnâ€™t bear the thought of riding him and then put him to bed hayless so I then bought extra off a friend to sneak in. Iâ€™m pretty sure the majority of the liveries that I associated with would prefer to pay the right amount to ensure their horses were properly cared for. In fact most of us bought in extras so it wasnâ€™t a money issue but availability of anything better.


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## hollyandivy123 (10 October 2019)

i was once on a yard that was rented by the yard manager to run as a business, not cheap livery from 550-800 per month depending on part or including riding etc. the problem was the manager had filled so many of the boxes with their own horses not bringing in a livery bill that they could not pay their rent and the staffing costs with the paying liveries. 

yes they complained about subsidizing the liveries life style whilst we could see that down sizing their stock would have made it a viable business, they where loosing about 60K a year.


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## luckyoldme (10 October 2019)

Hmmm .maybe cash in hand livery yards keep prices down?
How can a legitimate  business up their prices when there is so much competition  from folk who arent declaring their extra income?


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## honetpot (10 October 2019)

BMWKIPP said:



			And also everywhere that pays hourly does so on zero hour contracts these days. Therefore it is you OP that needs to come into the 21st century and realise this
		
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Even on a zero hours contract you are on PAYE, your know your hourly rate and you are entitled to holiday pay. You have a contract, you do not have to work.
 I have worked like this so I know. You can add your holiday pay fortnightly,or take as a lump sum.
 Working in a supermarket will pay minimum wage, without the risks and a chance to earn more if you want.
 When I left school I worked as a groom, I earned Â£3 a week pocket money, but I had a nice warm cottage, all bills paid, all the food I could eat, a lesson most days, and even some clothes provided. I learnt more in six months than most people would learn in two years of college. Even at sixteen although my passion was horses I realised it was not something that was sustainable long term.
 Cleaners, gardeners, dog walkers etc earn at least Â£12ph and some more. For the job advertised as self employed I would be asking at least Â£15ph or a session rate.


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## ponymum (10 October 2019)

BMWKIPP said:



			And also everywhere that pays hourly does so on zero hour contracts these days. Therefore it is you OP that needs to come into the 21st century and realise this
		
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The advert actually states an annual salary. Others have calculated the hourly wage based on a very conservative estimate of what hours the job would entail. For a Yard *Manager, *this is peanuts.
My point stands that stating that the successful candidate would need to be self-employed is an illegal requirement. The advert didn't ask for zero hours, they asked for self-employed.


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## McFluff (10 October 2019)

BMWKIPP said:



			And also everywhere that pays hourly does so on zero hour contracts these days. Therefore it is you OP that needs to come into the 21st century and realise this
		
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Iâ€™m not sure I understand what you mean by this. Iâ€™m responsible for over 1000 staff in a different industry. We employ people and donâ€™t have zero hours contracts. We advertise using hourly rates though, and that is normal now (actually a fairly recent change for us as we used to use salary levels, but that doesnâ€™t really work now for anything under about Â£25k). 
That salary is VERY low (even if it was proper employment, which they are trying to dodge). In other industries those responsibilities would earn at least Â£25k (properly employed, so with benefits).  The horse industry definitely is behind other industries in terms of how staff are treated. 
As eventing mum says, this is a complex issue, and if all livery prices shot up to where they should be to reflect the real costs, there would be a welfare crisis.  There are some yards that charge enough, but they are not the norm.


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## magicmoments (12 October 2019)

honetpot said:



			Even on a zero hours contract you are on PAYE, your know your hourly rate and you are entitled to holiday pay. You have a contract, you do not have to work.
I have worked like this so I know. You can add your holiday pay fortnightly,or take as a lump sum.
Working in a supermarket will pay minimum wage, without the risks and a chance to earn more if you want.
When I left school I worked as a groom, I earned Â£3 a week pocket money, but I had a nice warm cottage, all bills paid, all the food I could eat, a lesson most days, and even some clothes provided. I learnt more in six months than most people would learn in two years of college. Even at sixteen although my passion was horses I realised it was not something that was sustainable long term.
Cleaners, gardeners, dog walkers etc earn at least Â£12ph and some more. For the job advertised as self employed I would be asking at least Â£15ph or a session rate.
		
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Not all cleaners charge at least Â£12ph.  I am a cleaner/gardener and I charge Â£11ph and have recently seen an advert in the village shop (where I clean for 5 customers) for a cleaner charging Â£10ph. I was originally going to increase my charges last November after 3 years at the same rate, but what with the uncertainty over brexit and that advert they have remained at Â£11ph.  That is despite me being totally honest, reliable and hardworking and having a waiting list.


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## Dancing monkey (14 October 2019)

hi


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## Boulty (20 October 2019)

I do sometimes wonder if the smallish DIY yards where the liveries are subsiding the YOs own horses or where the owner has a â€œnormalâ€ job & the yard is secondary or where they want the company of the liveries / extra security of more people being about actually donâ€™t WANT to make a profit (as then theyâ€™d have to pay more tax etc) & are just happy to vaguely break even.  This of course makes it awkward for anyone who IS trying to run it as their main business to charge a realistic fee & still compete on price


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