# CS yesterday-please comments, condition, expression etc:



## Prince33Sp4rkle (30 July 2012)

please please please can everyone who knows the background, chime in with how you think he is looking now.
condition-has he put any on, lost any, stayed same (compared to last week when id just changed feed and he'd had a week of)
expression-angry,happy, tense etc etc

and anything else you see, and ill chime back in later and let you know how we got on (dont want to skew things by saying yet), and what ive done feed wise etc. i just need to know im seeing what i think im seeing etc 

thanks guys, your help as ever, is much appreciated


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## Tr0uble (30 July 2012)

Looking much stronger behind the saddle amd base of neck...neck looks more relaxed and less like he's holding it in place....if I'd seen these without seeing the last lot...id not even think to look closely at his condition (does that make sense?) so it was noticeable in the last pics, doesn't jump out in these.

I'd still say he's not quite as stacked as he was a short while ago....maybe three or four sets of pics ago?

Even in the filthy rain pic his face looks more relaxed too...less nostril pinching for sure!


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## Vetwrap (30 July 2012)

Really no expert, but IMHO, CS looks relaxed and forward in the pics.  The only one which gave me any slight impression of any degree of tension is he last one.  In the rest, he looks to me to be happy and swinging forward.

Hope that you had a successful day, despite the weather!


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## Tr0uble (30 July 2012)

Now I'm looking again I can't work out if that is rain? Or just. Dark pic!??!


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (30 July 2012)

absolute piss pouring rain! just for 15/20mins was vile, NMT took shelter in the inddor only to be rudely evicted when someone went in to ride, because she is well scary innit!!!!!!

thanks peeps 

anyone else?


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## BuzzLightyear (30 July 2012)

he looks a lot more forward to me, really stepping up to the bridle.
More uphill too if that makes sense?


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## Perfect_Pirouette (30 July 2012)

Agree- he looks stronger, more relaxed and more 'up' in his frame.


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## Baggybreeches (30 July 2012)

He looks very relaxed and as Booboos says the nostrils look relaxed (which I always take as a good sign!).
No idea re: condition in relation to before but he looks fine to me, and he seems to be more at ease if that makes sense?
I like the second pic


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## Alfami (30 July 2012)

Much better than last weeks pics.  Maybe not quite (condition wise) where he was, but definitely an improvement from last week and he looks happy to me!


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## TarrSteps (30 July 2012)

I would say he looks softer - literally and metaphorically - overall. 

I take it you've been tweaking the management again?


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## rowy (30 July 2012)

I think he looks really good. Much more uphill and stepping under in trot pics


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## Nicnac (30 July 2012)

He just looks....happier than last week.  I think he's gorgeous and if only out of training for less than a year, you have done an amazing job (sorry if that's wrong regarding time out of racing I'm quite new to being active on here so it's just what I've picked up from reading your posts).

He is coming through more behind than last week's pictures, whole frame looks more relaxed and his neck & back are softer. Especially in the 3rd picture where his self-carriage is evident.  

FWIW, my ex-racer has won at elementary and after 10 months off competing I took him out to a local RC show at prelim just to get him out and got 47% with judge telling me his back was seriously sore.  I told her that he was just back after breaking his withers and back, saddle etc etc had been done to the 'enth degree for her to tell me I should change my back person.  He was fine, just horribly anxious and tense - wish I knew what goes on in their heads sometimes.

Anyway, back to the point - what have you done to make such a difference in a week?


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (30 July 2012)

thanks nicnac, this is actually the more experienced ex racer, he's 7 and been out of racing since he was 4 (its Fig who only stopped racing last year  ) but still, i think he does well considering he isnt bred or built for it really.

do agree that TB's have a *special* way of looking horribly anxious and upside down that no other breed can quite pull off lol!!!!!!!!

will give it until lunch for people to chime in and will then give more info and maybe pick some more brains.

thanks you everyone who has commented so far, really appreciated.


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## MillionDollar (30 July 2012)

To me, in most of the pics he looks more relaxed, his mouth doesn't looked as screwed up as last time. Also looks to me like his topline is a LOT better! Especially on his hindquarters.


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## alwaysbroke (30 July 2012)

Had a god look at the pics before reading everyone else's comments and all I can say  is bhaa....as in seeing a more relaxed horse, softer, less nostril pinching, condition better than last week, but not quite as good as a few weeks ago.....will be interesting to hear the changes you have made


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (30 July 2012)

ok.....


he's been back in work for 2 weeks now, and we also increased his re-leve from 2.5 scoops a day to 3, so i think that accounts for the increase in muscle in the places it had dropped off-i do think he drops muscle easily when not in *proper* work and that may well account for him looking a bit weak in last weeks pics.
am going to swap from linseed to equijewel as that is designed to work with the re-leve, and i can be 100% confident the vit E is balanced.

at home he feels superb, really really forward from the word go,really taking me along, even in walk.

travelled him in a light rug and then piled a HW over 1/4's when we arrived. plus warmed up in 1/4 sheet.

he warmed up really well, probably the best he's warmed up all year in terms of softness over back and being in front of my leg and seat straight away.
i did a shorter warm up (down from an hour to 40mins with LOADS of walk breaks) and he pootled round AM98 very sweetly for 64.47% and 2nd, he made a mistake and i made a mistake so all in all pleased with that, as minus mistakes would have been 65% and change, which is solid for him at that level.
Did all the PSG stuff in that first warm up, then had 10mins on the lorry and 10 min of basic transitions before he went in to the PSG....................trot work fine, walk fine, canter zig zag fine, first piri (to his weaker side and where he blew up last week) fine, came out corner for 2nd (easier) piri and he tried to turn as soon as i collected, i said "no" and he absolutely errupted, slammed anchors on, ran backwards bucking and then stood up........pushed him forward, circled and tried again and this time he really said "GET LOST", rearing, spinning, leaping and running backwards whilst spinning, then going up again, at which point judge squeaked that i wasnt to try the piri again so had to be elim, but could finish tempis etc.
throughly peed off(him), the changes were erratic, an amalgamation of 4's,3's,2's and bucking.

took him in the warm up and ran through the easier piri a few times and every time he tried to take over and turn too tight/too soon, and when pushed forward tried to go up again, so we had some ugly galloping about before he consented to do a big, forward, working piri and we then called it a day.

am at a bit of a loss-really really do not think this is feed or ulcer related as he is SO forward (in a nice swingy way), and has done the piris at home without a murmur, and when tummy is sore he goes slower and slower behind the leg????

i accept they are not easy for him,and never will be his area of expertise, and thus am asking for big ones in the ring (got a 6 for the first one in the PSG and comment "little large" which was 100% fair and im happy with and indeed will be happy if we get 6's for them forever!)..............going to the right he has always been more prone to trying to take over as finds it naturally easier to come round tighter, and that obv makes his life more difficult/requires more effort and then if i try and correct him, i get sold to sod off lol!

really unsure how to play this:

* carry a whip in the ring and tap him coming out corner and ride piris even bigger to make point he has to stay forward off inside leg. this will mess up the changes as if i carry a whip he tends to run through them too flat and fast-can i *accidentally* drop the whip after the piris?!

*ride a few sacrificial tests with huge piris and get 4's but  be able to ride them with less collection until he accepts not to take over as soon as i collect.

*stop riding PSG (but not sure if he'll get over the issue really, as seems to only occur in ring, and he's very crafty about only playing up if he thinks i cant ride through it-it used to be the HP last year, fine in warm up, tight and threatening to blow up in ring, and i just had to plug away at it and accept some tests would go to rat **** and now the HP is fine).

i have a lesson fri with a new trainer, for a new opinion/set of eyes etc, in case i am OVER collecting.

in every other way he feels super, and the fact he did it to the left last week, and to the right this week, seems to rule out a one sided physical issue would you say?

im thrilled with general forwadness, the trot work, and the canter lateral work, just need to be able to ride him through the piris and not have him taking over.


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## rowy (30 July 2012)

Could it be that he still gets tense in competitions and the tenseness means he finds it really difficult to collect enough for the piris which he already finds difficult? 
The idea to do some sacrificial tests doing massive piris may be a good idea to see if he improves until he gets comfortable with doing them in tests.


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## BuzzLightyear (30 July 2012)

can you go HC in some classes and use them to work him through it?


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## daffy44 (30 July 2012)

How frustrating for you, i'm so sorry.  What does your usual, long term trainer say?  I do think a fresh pair of eyes is a good idea, but its always useful to have the opinion of a trainer who knows you both well.


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (30 July 2012)

that he's naughty.
trainer has a LOT of experience with dappy TB's and has seen the "agh cant do shoulder in", the "agh cant do HP" and the "agh cant do piaffe" phases, which incl the same leaping and launching, and have now passed, so is sure the "agh cant do piri" phase will pass too.

it does feel a bit naughty TBH, if i let him do it HIS way, he probably wouldnt have thrown the toys out...............but equally i want to coax him round to my way of thinking, not just beat him through it,and the other side of that is, i have to be able to do it in a safe way.


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## Perfect_Pirouette (30 July 2012)

Prince33Sp4rkle said:



			*ride a few sacrificial tests with huge piris and get 4's but  be able to ride them with less collection until he accepts not to take over as soon as i collect..
		
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This ^^^ who cares if you do 3/4 tests whereby you either enter HC or just go in and hope for the best? If it were me this is what i'd do, stuff getting a few crap scores, I think you're going to have to sacrifice something to push him through this so it may as well be them. If he's fine at home then I think this is the best thing to do atm.


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## rlhnlk (30 July 2012)

It's not much help necessarily but could it may just be him and his personality? Mine's a tb mare and she will chuck the toys when she finds things hard (on a less impressive scale than CS though!). She can pull it together and do as I ask, but once she get's it in her head that she can't then she get's hysterical and has a tantrum. I had this when restarting canter following 3 months off on box rest, again when starting lateral work, again when starting poles again etc. She kicked off again when we went back out competing (we were eliminated for leaving the arena sideways).

The only thing that helps her is repetition and keep doing the stuff when she's relaxed, if he is similar to her it may be worth either throwing a couple of test's and doing some massive piri's, or if you don't want to throw the scores as such then ask if you can borrow the arena for 5 mins in the break between tests once you've finished yours and see if you can work through it in a test environment but with more time to set up etc than you would have if you were doing the test?


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (30 July 2012)

def personality at least in part.

just had a *duh* moment-can go training, so if he behaves can still use the sheet for area sheets.

keep trying to hire vale view the eve of a show when arenas/flowers out etc but proving impossible, irritatingly.


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## AntxGeorgiax (30 July 2012)

I think he looks in lovely condition! I haven't seen before pics, but whatever you're doing, keep doing it! X


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## Tr0uble (30 July 2012)

God how annoying!! He def does look stronger and happier in the pics though.

Could you drop back to AM for a bit, but warm up for PSG? I know he only does it in the ring but could the tension start in the warm up and bubble over in the ring?

Clutching at straws but you never know.


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## HayleyUK (30 July 2012)

Is there a video of a test and tantrum - may spot something on that?

Agree it seems like freshness/naughtiness!my mare evades/tits about if she's too fresh - admittedly much lower level!


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (30 July 2012)

no vid, but will ask NMT to try and vid the *danger area* next time out to see if it can be captured (with any luck that will mean he DOESNT do it lol!)

trouble-not sure TBH, he did the canter HP ok after doing the piris in the warm up, and that was the previous major danger area, if he was feeling tense, id expect that to go a bit upside down too.

think im leaning towards asking for very baby collection and keeping them huge, and loads of patting for every step, i want him to stay on side i guess, but whilst realising he has to  put *some* effort in.


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## Worried1 (30 July 2012)

He looks softer and finitely looks more bulky in a good way.

Did you get a chance to test ride at home? I stand in the arena and yell at Mr W to do it again, do it again, blah blah. So that Blitz learns not to take over or anchor up which he has done in the past.

Basically we run once through to try and highlit any weak spots then drill ride the bits he challenges or fuds tricky.

It has really helped and Blitz has turned a bit of a corner.


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## daffy44 (30 July 2012)

Then if your usual trainer feels as you do that he is just being a bit of a monkey, then i'm sure your both right, and it just has to be worked through.  Exceedingly frustrating for you, but i think your idea of going Training and riding the piris big but under YOUR control is a very good one.  Very best of luck!


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## Saratoga (30 July 2012)

Hmm...I thought from the pics he looks much happier in his expression and mouth, so I would agree it doesn't look to be pain/ulcer/feed related as he would express unhappiness in training at home, warm up etc.

I think if it were me and he was doing working piris happily at home I would do a few PSG training sections, and go for really large piris just to get it out of his head that he doesn't have to down tools and say no. 

The one thing I would suggest, and I vaguely remember it from a photo you posted (but please tell me that I'm wrong if that's the case?!) is that your inside hand sometimes comes across his neck in the piri and shuts him down. I would just check in the test you're not drawing back on him when collecting and therefore making him feel he has no exit forward? I know my tendency to do bad things always crops up more in a test when I'm concentrating on the test and forget about me!


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (30 July 2012)

its a possibility saratoga (the hand thing), so will get NMT and trainer to see what they think. I need to find the balance between riding enough (and not sitting like a lemon) and not over riding it and trying to carry him through it.

perhaps i was too blase (as going right is his easy way) and he got confused and then when i  corrected him it annoyed him.

will see if i can work on the bad hand a lot(?amputation), as have a while until next show.


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## noname (30 July 2012)

Hey there,

Just wondered whether you did just the PSG straight off would work? The last two reports I've read he's gone really well in the first test and had his strop in the second.

Have you tried one of Harry's test riding clinics? I think BD NW have them about. Then you could maybe have a little word with him mid way and then get to do the whole thing again in test conditions so you if it is naughty he doesn't get away with it??

Anyway, best of luck, and well done he looks more supple in the neck in these pics.


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## RobinHood (30 July 2012)

Prince33Sp4rkle said:



			just had a *duh* moment-can go training, so if he behaves can still use the sheet for area sheets.
		
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Hopefully you will have PSG cracked by then but when the 2013 rule book comes into force on 1st Dec training sheets will no longer be accepted for area festivals.


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## MrsMozart (30 July 2012)

Just thinking of Saratoga's comment re hand. 

Maybe you're tensing/shifting balance/blocking without realising it. How about trying a few Equipilates sessions. Lynsey Wilcox-Reid instructs both ridden and in the studio. She has an interesting back story, and what she says and does makes a lot of sense 

Good luck with it all


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## Ferdinase514 (30 July 2012)

Very quickly (am supposed to be watching Olympic TV with MH) he looks weaker behind the saddle.

Sorry to hear he's being tricky


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (30 July 2012)

do you think weaker compared to *normal* or weaker compared to last week pics at swallowfield?

just trying to get lost of opinions, so thanks 

worried-have been riding portions of the test so he doesnt anticipate, but maybe i need to bite bullet and drill them a bit more, maybe he'd be happier knowing what was coming............


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## Firewell (31 July 2012)

I think he looks as though he has picked up a bit condition wise behind the saddle (not that he ever looked bad of course!).

I would also do the large piris and get rubbish marks for that one movement the next couple of times out. It might just be a bit of a confidence thing, finding it a bit difficult anyway combined with competition environment and then doing the whole TB 'I'm upset, which is making me even more UPSET... i CAN'T COPE WAAAAAAAAAAAH) thing...

I'd work on it at home, getting him stronger in the piris so he starts to find them easier and at comps just take it really easy on the movement to get through the PSG with no tantrums, then as he grows in confidence, get them more correct gradually.

What you don't want to do is push him to the point where he just gives up on you as that's not achieveing anything. 

To me, in my mind that seems to make the most sense...


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## BronsonNutter (31 July 2012)

Naughty Star  Does he only kick off mid-piri, or as soon as he thinks you are going to ask for a piri? I am far from a stressage expert (all bar one of my pirouette experiences have been involuntary ones in SJ prize givings ) but I remember reading (?) something about bringing them right back and setting up as if to go into a pirouette, but, on the point of being about to do one, kicking on instead. Just wondering if it might help, incase he is getting stressed on the run up to a piri - but then he might get more stressed because he won't know what to expect... 

Or could you just 'forget' the bad piri in the tests for now until he is feeling more consistent? Would lose marks but not as many as kung-fu-ninja-ponying would? Fingers crossed you get to the bottom of it!


(if it makes you feel any better, Wibbly spooked at his own feet today and had a mini-flid about that - the joys of TBs )


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## Pasha (31 July 2012)

He looks so much more softer relaxed and through to me... hard to tell condition wise as when they are all tense like he was before, they tend to look a bit poorer anyway IMO.

My boy (Arab) is very similar, although not working at the same level - if it's not right and I keep asking for it, he slams on the breaks and threatens to go up (I am lucky that we only get little hops) and often it takes me a while to work out what I am doing that's causing it - I am normally blocking him in some way I am unaware of!

My suggestions would be to try just doing the PSG on it's own - even in the training section until you get over this issue OR maybe ask you trainer to take him in the PSG to eliminate any blocking from you first?


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## Rouletterose (31 July 2012)

I would ride larger ones on the right rein, using slightly more outside rein, not allowing too much bend and keeping your inside hand a little wide. It does sound as though he becomes blocked, also I would do more on the left rein and work on these being smaller and asking for almost too much bend periodically, to stretch the muscles on the right side of his neck.
Make sure you are not blocking with your inside hand and using enough outside leg.


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## Leg_end (1 August 2012)

I think you should probably take a step back and get the piri's 110% at home before you take him back out at PSG, it sounds so stressful and he is clearly downing tools big time. If it is naughtiness then he will learn v quickly that he can argue with you at a comp and get away with it so you are simply making more problems for yourself in the long term. 

He is still so young and has lost condition over the last few weeks so things he found hard before holiday will be much harder now, is it really a big issue to build him up (or investigate why he's losing condition if he doesn't put it back on) over the next few weeks and see what happens then?


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## Amymay (1 August 2012)

I don't see a particularly physically strong horse.  And I wonder if at 7 you are simply asking too much of the horse.


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## horsemad32 (1 August 2012)

So you know the piri's are too much, probably both physically and mentally.  They make him ache, so the second lot he goes 'it hurts, but if I do it THIS way it'll be easier', you go 'no, do it my way' and he tells you to **** off!!!  

Your options as I see them:
1) Work on the strength and suppleness needed, at home (lots of collection, lots of suppleness, then lots of piris tbh), every other session or so until he can do more on each rein than you'd ever ask for in warm-up + test, easily and without thinking about it.
2) You could try not doing any in the warm-up, just suppleness and collection work, and see if just doing the test ones means he feels ok about it.
3) Just do the PSG test, to see if this is general tiredness exacerbating the weakest link.
4) Look at the lorry journey - what happens at home if you take him out in the lorry for that amount of time, then come back and simulate two tests + warm-up?  Is there an issue there?
5) See what happens if you let him do it his way (so long as it does actually result in a piri just not a pretty one), video it, compare with 'normal' and try to see where the issue lies - what is he protecting?
6) Give him more time - focus on getting better scores into the 70s in the AM on a consistent basis, focus on regionals next time etc, and worry about this later, when he's naturally stronger.


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## Tempi (1 August 2012)

amymay said:



			I don't see a particularly physically strong horse.  And I wonder if at 7 you are simply asking too much of the horse.
		
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I'm really sorry PS but i've got to agree with Amymay, and you know I love Star and you really have done a fantastic job with him.  I think 7 is far too young to be doing PSG with a horse like him that can down tools and get nervous.  Physically hes not strong enough IMO to be doing a PSG, he needs a lot more weight and muscle on his topline to be able to achieve the higher more collected movements.  I'm in no doubt that he can do it, but I think you need to wait a year before doing it and really get those consistent higher marks at Advanced/Adv Medium.  It all seems to me a bit rushed, begining of the year you were doing Medium (i think?) and now you're out doing a PSG to be honest I think most horses would have downed tools with all that pressure and especially at such a young age.

Take a step back, focus on the basics of getting him stronger and more consistent and equal/forwards in to the contact and work on your hands (they need to be kept level and forwards to the bridle in the lateral work, not crossing back and over the wither) - I mean that in the nicest possible way (please dont think I'm being nasty) as I have exactly the same problem as you in that I draw my hand back and it restricts the movement in the lateral work especially, then Bloss sticks two fingers up at me and says no; its always my fault because of my hands so i've had 7 weeks off competing working on me and my position and controlling my wild right hand and now everything is a million times better and Bloss is more confident into the bridle and in the half passes especially. 

At PSG you need to be at the top of the game and I think Star just needs some confidence rounds - why dont you drop back to Medium or even Advanced Medium and get him qualified for the regionals?  Just so you and him can gain confidence again.  At home work on all the little things, like your piri's etc so that then next year his bigger, bolder and more confident to take you around the test as opposed to you having to take him around the test.

Like I said above I do think he needs more weight, physically (and mentally) hes just not mature enough for PSG.


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## LCH611 (1 August 2012)

I would agree with the other posters that have suggested that you back off a bit and let him grow into himself (maybe do a bit of jumping, fun rides, anything to take te pressure off?) because in that last picture I think he looks really fed up. Sorry.


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## Booboos (1 August 2012)

It's a tough one but either he is finding the work a bit too challenging at the moment and he needs to take it slower, or he has a physical problem that causes pain/discomfort and leads him to react this way. If you have doubts in your mind about the possibility of a physical issue it might be worth taking him for a full work up at one of the major equestrian clinics like AHT.


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## Tempi (1 August 2012)

Booboos said:



			It's a tough one but either he is finding the work a bit too challenging at the moment and he needs to take it slower, or he has a physical problem that causes pain/discomfort and leads him to react this way. If you have doubts in your mind about the possibility of a physical issue it might be worth taking him for a full work up at one of the major equestrian clinics like AHT.
		
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I think to be honest if it was a physical problem then he would be showing more signs even at the lower levels, however hes only doing it when asked to do the more advanced movements/tests which to mean screams that hes just not ready mentally or physically for it.


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## TwoStroke (1 August 2012)

I agree that perhaps he needs more muscle for PSG level, but weight (i.e. fat) won't help him in the slightest, and imo people should bear in mind that he's a TB, so will never look like a WB.

It would be interesting to see what happens if he dropped back to medium for a few tests.


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (1 August 2012)

the thing is, he's a TB, not a WB, he's never going to look like the side of a house like a WB at the same level..................for a long, tall,rangey TB i think he looks about right weight wise and although yes he needs more muscle, doesnt everything always need more muscle! He looks an awful, awful lot better than any other pure TB ive seen competing at his level and i guess will always be prone to long lean muscle rather than short bulky muscle as thats just genetics?????
i am currently playing with feed (equijewel arriving fri) but since changing to re-leve he feels fitter, sharper and has more stamina. I think the winergy DID keep pure  fat based condition on him better, but he felt stodgy? and ive been wondering if he was actually carrying too much podge and that was making the work a bit of an effort?

horsemad & rouletterose-thanks  have actually just this morning been playing with all the seperate elements, coming back to piri canter, then forward, then back, playing with the bend in both collected and piri canter, and going shoulder in to 1/4 in on a circle keeping him off my inside leg.

i actually wondered too if i would be better to canter out corner, collect a bit later and let HIM chose when to come round....not ideal or technically correct, but im well used to having to think outside the box with him so i dont mind if thats how we have to do it.

he's ok with them at home, sometimes tries to take over going right, but doesnt go upside down like this if i say "no", and i can move them bigger/smaller/bigger/smaller and do a few each way on the trot, so its either me riding them badly at a show, or the tension affecting him in some way.......i just want to clarify that if i was having this problem at home, i wouldnt be doing the PSG 

interesting idea about ONLY doing them in the ring at a show, that may also be worth a try, thanks.

as far as adv med goes-he's got 3 points from qual and 3 from none qual so only needs 2 more points in each to be qual for the winters, so he's doing ok. He's never going to be a 70% horse.....the horses here i see getting 70% at open adv med are ULTRA flashy and getting 8/9 for every extension and trot half pass as they are such scopey movers. he isnt, never will be, so im aiming for solid 65/66% at adv med and feel like im getting there bit by bit now, after a bit of a bumpy start to the season (he started at adv med this year BTW and has done A105 too)

another clarification-it isnt always the 2nd piri, or the same way, that he goes up, if that helps anyones thought process!

will pick trainers brains fri and do a lesson report, (will see if i can beg the mothership to take some pics too), she knows me quite well, even though she doesnt know CS.

edited quickly to add-he hates jumping, but does do polework once a week and also do interval training in the field........fun rides are a total no go, as he'll break a leg and ill break both mine! I dont think he looks fed up, i think he's concentrating but i did ask in original post and most people seem to agree he generally looks relaxed???????


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## Amymay (1 August 2012)

the thing is, he's a TB, not a WB, he's never going to look like the side of a house like a WB at the same level..................for a long, tall,rangey TB i think he looks about right weight wise and although yes he needs more muscle, doesnt everything always need more muscle! He looks an awful, awful lot better than any other pure TB ive seen competing at his level and i guess will always be prone to long lean muscle rather than short bulky muscle as thats just genetics?????
		
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No, he's never going to look like the side of a house, thank goodness.  And I think you're right about his weight.  My comment was simply about his strength, and that I perceive he looks lacking in it.  Of course in the flesh it could be a completely different kettle of fish.  

But, I think at 7 years old, you are quite possibly not taking in to consideration the fact that he needs more physical (as well as mental) maturity to work consistently at PSG.  

Just my views, and obviously others will disagree.  However I think the fact that you have got as far with him is a testament to real hard work on your part - but there does come a time when regardless of hard work and talent in the end you will still hit a brick wall if the horse simply (at this point in time) is not up to it.  And at 7, it seems to be rushing it.


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## Tempi (1 August 2012)

TwoStroke said:



			I agree that perhaps he needs more muscle for PSG level, but weight (i.e. fat) won't help him in the slightest, and imo people should bear in mind that he's a TB, so will never look like a WB.

It would be interesting to see what happens if he dropped back to medium for a few tests.
		
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Yes sorry, my general term of weight I used loosely - what I meant was that he needs more bulk and maturity and muscle.  Obviously I didnt mean he needed to be fat!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## SpottedCat (1 August 2012)

Quick Q: following the premise that you should be working at home a level above that at which you're competing, so the competition is always easy and within their scope, what level is he working at at home? Is he working at Inter I? If he's not, then I'd agree with the fact that it's all too much for him in competition and you'd be better off taking him out at M/AM or even advanced whilst he's still working PSG at home, then moving up to PSG when he's working Inter I at home. 

Id say this is especially true after he's had a break because you've been away - even 4* horses come out at Open Intermediate and sometimes even open Novice after a break!


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## siennamum (1 August 2012)

I can't help thinking that he seems to do nothing but work, and at the age of 7 he doesn't appear to be having much fun in his life.

Can't you just get him hacking, spend some time doing nothing stressful and let him down a bit. I am not overly familiar with top level competition horse management, but think we kid ourselves that horses like school work, or don't need variety.


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## Leg_end (1 August 2012)

Prince33Sp4rkle said:



			the thing is, he's a TB, not a WB, he's never going to look like the side of a house like a WB at the same level..................for a long, tall,rangey TB i think he looks about right weight wise and although yes he needs more muscle, doesnt everything always need more muscle!
		
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I agree with amymay that I wouldn't want to see him fatter but I would want him heavier and far more muscled than he is right now. It takes years and years to build the right muscle for those movements and I think you would be surprised what you would get if you waited and consolodated him at AM in comps but worked PSG at home.



Prince33Sp4rkle said:



			He looks an awful, awful lot better than any other pure TB ive seen competing at his level and i guess will always be prone to long lean muscle rather than short bulky muscle as thats just genetics?????
		
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Maybe so, but are you comparing him with what you see locally as I have to say I have seen pure TBs working at that level (and even some working below) who look far far stronger than Star does now. I know its horses for courses and that they are all different but all you need to do is compare your photos to last years and see what a big change there has been so I would put money on the fact that is because they are all a bit older and have had time to develop their frame appropriately.



Prince33Sp4rkle said:



			as far as adv med goes-he's got 3 points from qual and 3 from none qual so only needs 2 more points in each to be qual for the winters, so he's doing ok. He's never going to be a 70% horse.....the horses here i see getting 70% at open adv med are ULTRA flashy and getting 8/9 for every extension and trot half pass as they are such scopey movers. he isnt, never will be, so im aiming for solid 65/66% at adv med and feel like im getting there bit by bit now, after a bit of a bumpy start to the season (he started at adv med this year BTW and has done A105 too)
		
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I may be getting the wrong vibe from you but you just seem to be in such a rush to get to the top just so you can say you compete as PSG/GP whatever. Would you not prefer to be performing really consistently at a level and then move up when you are both ready to do so? I've known many brilliant horses who have got to the top and even though they showed promise at a young age, like star has, things have been taken slowly to make sure they get it right and aren't overfaced.

I am not trying to be mean or nasty, the horse is trying to tell you something - listen to him before you both regret it.


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## jacksmum (1 August 2012)

amymay said:



			No, he's never going to look like the side of a house, thank goodness.  And I think you're right about his weight.  My comment was simply about his strength, and that I perceive he looks lacking in it.  Of course in the flesh it could be a completely different kettle of fish.  

But, I think at 7 years old, you are quite possibly not taking in to consideration the fact that he needs more physical (as well as mental) maturity to work consistently at PSG.  

Just my views, and obviously others will disagree.  However I think the fact that you have got as far with him is a testament to real hard work on your part - but there does come a time when regardless of hard work and talent in the end you will still hit a brick wall if the horse simply (at this point in time) is not up to it.  And at 7, it seems to be rushing it.
		
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Totally agree with Amymay.
He is telling you something and you need to listen.


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## Goldenstar (1 August 2012)

Do you ever hack him out ?
Or lead him from another horse I firmly believe horses need to get exercise sometimes that demands nothing from them just movement.
I think it's time for patience a step back and work at home and let him develop his muscle power more , when a horse has too little muscle bulk to support the movement he's making it the joints that take the strain and it's often away from home when when you add the stress of competition into the mix that they complain.Perhaps it's just to much physically to perform these movements in a test at this moment
One little thing that my trainer has just showed me is to reward the hard thing for them ( in my case the half steps ) with what they enjoy ( the extension for mine) this has transformed mines attitude to what he finds difficult as he's learnt if he  trys hard he might get rewarded  with a go at the thing he loves doing might that help with yours of course you can't do all the time but it's definatly helping mines attitude to the difficult things .


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## Feisty Mare (1 August 2012)

Some good comments/suggestions here which I agree with and won't repeat - have been following this and not sure I understand why you are not focussing on getting AM regionals qualification, taking a very established horse to the regionals, then going out at PSG afterwards?  I caveat the following very strongly with the fact that I don't know you from Adam but... the way it comes across is that you are trying to qualify for things at two levels at once and this is just a bit much for the horse. IMHO I think this has nothing to do with your feed/rugging regime but his/your mindsets which perhaps are at odds with one another


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (1 August 2012)

for the last time-i cannot hack this horse out, or do fun rides, or go xc, or jump! and i refuse to risk another horse by trying to pony him off them either,not worth endangering the lovely Bruce  (or indeed himself if he gets away from me and goes nobbing off down the road!)

again for the last time-he does pole work, which he loves, once a week, and also does canter work in the field for a change of scenery.

perhaps it appears he only works because i only do reports on lessons or shows,because i can assure you he works 5 days a week, one of those is polework and cantering in a light seat, so does 4 schooling sessions a week and competes 2 or (rarely)3 times a month which i dont think is excessive.
he goes out all day, every day, and has as much variety as i can give him, which has been explained umpteen times......i honestly think its ridiculous to say he has no fun in his life when he is generally very happy and forward at the minute and indeed at home has been a really good boy recently, im just having one problem in the ring, bit of a sweeping statement and i dont want what has been a very useful discussion, turn in to a bun fight (again).

as far as work at home goes, he plays with pi/pa once a week(just a few steps and transitions in/out of each and they are coming on SO well, so forward and active compared to last year   ) and is confidently doing a shallow canter zig zag (4 changes, so 3 zigs, or zags!!!) and on my good counting days (!) easily does 5 x 2's.
so he's working towards inter I in a very playful way, theres no drilling, minimal repetition etc.

Goldenstar-i like your thinking and do try and work with that in mind, he finds passage and changes an absolute lark, so they are his *fun* things (albeit only a few steps of the passage) and AS SOON as he makes an effort at his harder things, he's allowed to stretch and go forward and have a good gallop if he wants to. i give him LOADS of breaks too.

ive got loads of ideas here to work with, and am going to have to write them down in fact ive got so many, which is great, and exactly what i needed.

dont think i dont keep in the back of my mind whether he's being pushed too hard, because i absolutely do but i need to consider everything and every thing it could be.

im sure my riding doesnt help-i find piris hard to ride well, and a more genuine horse might just do a crappy one, but he's not a packer, so he tells me where to go-maybe he's right to, and it will certainly make me up MY game


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## SpottedCat (1 August 2012)

PS - if you find the piri's harder too, how about some schoolmaster lessons so you have them totally nailed, then at least one of you knows what they're aiming at! I did this to sort out half pass and changes, and felt a tiny bit smug when my dressage trainer started introducing canter half pass and asked after the first session if I'd been working on them before with my horse as they were test quality (and since she was highly placed at the nationals at Inter I I am happy she might be right). I hadn't at all, but the drilling me on body position on a horse that knew what it was doing made all the difference.


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## Goldenstar (1 August 2012)

I think he's lovely by the way just be grateful you are working him this summer not watching him grazing while he grows a new set of feet and the vet scratch their heads about the largish lump on his jaw that does not show on X-ray or MRI  that's what my TB dressage project is up to in his six year old summer.
Think of this way if luck and you always need a degree of luck with horses is on your side and careful management he will still be going in a decade look forward to the years  down the road and a step back now will seem nothing.


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## Amymay (1 August 2012)

for the last time-i cannot hack this horse out, or do fun rides, or go xc, or jump
		
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Sorry, I've missed where you've spoken about this in the past, so forgive my question - but is there a reason he can't hack?


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## Tempi (1 August 2012)

Goldenstar said:



			Think of this way if luck and you always need a degree of luck with horses is on your side and careful management he will still be going in a decade look forward to the years  down the road and a step back now will seem nothing.
		
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This is very good advice, hes young, step back a bit and both of you have an easier time for a while, take some of the pressure off.  You both have years ahead of you why hurry?


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (1 August 2012)

he's stupidly sharp. I dont just mean normally sharp, he doesnt spook or bolt but he works himself in to a total tizz, and once he's up, i cant get him to come down to earth again...............he rears, repeatedly and spins in the road, and broncs/fly bucks from a walk, and when he isnt trying to throw himself under traffic, he passages constantly like a nutcase, which is no good for his legs.

have had too many near misses with cars and ditches to contemplate it again and he has been 500% more settled in the warm up, since quitting hacking.


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## Amymay (1 August 2012)

Fair enough.  I wouldn't want to hack that either.


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## Polotash (1 August 2012)

He looks lovely and forward and very shiny. 

The only thing I'd say is he looks a bit "jumpers bum", but I think that's just his shape rather than lacking condition or muscle tone...


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## Booboos (1 August 2012)

Tempi said:



			I think to be honest if it was a physical problem then he would be showing more signs even at the lower levels, however hes only doing it when asked to do the more advanced movements/tests which to mean screams that hes just not ready mentally or physically for it.
		
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Perhaps, but then again not always. I have known horses which were able to ignore their pain/discomfort until a certain amount of pressure was added to it, e.g. they were asked to do something physically or mentally more demanding than usual/what they could do easily, and then they would explode.


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (1 August 2012)

he would probably do it at home and in the warm up though, too?


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## Tempi (1 August 2012)

Prince33Sp4rkle said:



			he would probably do it at home and in the warm up though, too?
		
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Yes thats what I would have thought aswell that if it was pain it wouldnt just be in a test situation.  Although maybe because he is more tense in the test it might be triggering a pain reaction?  Just trying to think outside the box! If only they could talk!!!


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## MillionDollar (1 August 2012)

I think doing some tests at home would be the first thing I'd do, just pretend you are in a test at a show, so do everything as you would at a show. If he can do it at home he can do it at a show 

Actually I would do Dressage Anywhere.....

http://www.dressageanywhere.com/

They even do PSG, and all classes are marked by a BD judge (and you win prize money even if you're the only entry )!!!!

This would be where I'd start. If he then explodes at home during a test then you can look at other factors!


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## maestro (1 August 2012)

Pain seems to come and go with some problems  We had a classic with my daughters eventer.  He did a 22 dressage with coments from friends that he should have had an even lower mark, clear show jumping which was unusual for him, but daughter said he felt difficult and not taking her so we withdrew him xc.  Two days later he bronced and dumped her, had vet out and scanned, a hole in hind leg suspensory.
So I would always say to anyone now if a horse is throwing his teddy out have him checked out thoroughly before any kind of sort out.


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## LCH611 (1 August 2012)

he hates jumping said:
			
		


			Yes, lots of people have commented on the fact that he looks a lot more relaxed, but to be honest that rather surprised me (or made me wonder what he looks like in other pictures) because although it may just be a moment in time that last picture makes him look very cross if you look at his eye & facial expression. It probably wouldn't have caught my attention especially though if it wasn' combined with the fact that he seems to be having some issues - ninja moves, ulcers etc. I can see that you take your management of him very seriously so  as yo have all those bases covered I think you should try taking the mental pressure off him a bit.

Maybe he is just a horse that resents being pushed out of his comfort zone - in which case you have to ask yourself whether you want to persist with doing that or not?
I suggested jumping because I thought I had seen pictures of him doing some small cross poles & looking happy (if not especially tidy in front!!). It's a shame he doesn't hack out safely because it can be incredibly beneficial to sweeten a horse up. Ditto hunting but I imagine that is a definite non-starter!!
		
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## Prince33Sp4rkle (1 August 2012)

lol there would be def PS death if we went hunting!!!!

there are pics of him jumping, but shortly after that we had a few sessions were he was very hot/cold about it (and this was only at 50/60/70cm height), and he started to refuse to even walk over a pole, so we now keep it at polework level to avoid any further upsets. as even i ahev limits to how much nobbing around i want to deal with-pick my battles and all that,poles is fun and easy and a break for him, jumping isnt a break, so no need to pursue it.
afraid i really dont see him looking cross, concentrated, but not cross.


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## Supanova (1 August 2012)

Prince33Sp4rkle said:



			lol there would be def PS death if we went hunting!!!!

there are pics of him jumping, but shortly after that we had a few sessions were he was very hot/cold about it (and this was only at 50/60/70cm height), and he started to refuse to even walk over a pole, so we now keep it at polework level to avoid any further upsets. as even i ahev limits to how much nobbing around i want to deal with-pick my battles and all that,poles is fun and easy and a break for him, jumping isnt a break, so no need to pursue it.
afraid i really dont see him looking cross, concentrated, but not cross.
		
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To be honest, until you said the above, i've really been thinking that perhaps there is actually no problem with this horse and its just his personality and sometimes he doesn't want to do what is being asked.  Sometimes we can over analyse things.  However, to refuse to go over a pole seems really odd to me.  I can't see why any horse would have an objection to jumping at that level or poles.  It does make me wonder if there is some pain related issue.  I think you said in previous posts that he has been thoroughly looked at by a vet though?  Sorry i can't remember all the details.


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## bananas_22 (1 August 2012)

I think he does look better in these photos than in the last set, but not quite back to how good he was before.  

FWIW, I don't see anger in the last photo-I _think_ I can see where others are drawing these conclusions from, but to me the eye is the tell-tale sign and I think it looks focused and accepting, not p**d off.  

I agree with some of the others that of course there are improvements to be made in your riding-particularly hand positioning (but won't there always be, however good a rider you are!), but the important point for me is that from the photos, your contact always looks pretty soft and forgiving and so I would be surprised if this _alone_ made for such explosive reactions.  Judging your seat and whether you are blocking movement which makes it very difficult/uncomfortable for him, is harder to tell from the photos I think - has it ever been mentioned in any of your lessons?  If this were the case, I would agree that a couple of sessions on a piri schoolmaster might help, or even if not it may help to eliminate this as a contributing factor!  

I'd be inclined to think that he is a difficult character (possibly from pain early in his life/ulcer issues and remembered pain/just being a bit of a t*rd) who's toys have a tendency to come out the pram very easily and therefore one issue that might be a minor hindrance to a more level-headed horse can subsequently create a more explosive reaction.  As to whether this is down to a mental or physical tension or a symptom of a riding habit or not is pretty difficult to tell from photos.  

Whatever the reason, he seems to be going in a generally upwards trend (in the good way, not hooves upwards!!!) and so everything that you are doing with him is slowly having a positive effect - unfortunately you could argue that this is because a) your riding is improving b) he is maturing mentally c) maturing physically d) learning to deal with his issues or e) becoming more physically comfortable from any stomach issues....or a combination of them all, so it doesn't really help zero-in on the issue.  In conclusion-I don't think I can be of much help from just looking at the photos lol!!


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (1 August 2012)

supanova-i wish you could see it in action.................he would come out happily, do a few warm up fences, pop a 60cm course full of beans, then just plant in a corner and say no more. after that, would plant at a pole on floor.
the next session he might jump everything fine, the time after he might not even do a warm up jump.no gradual worsening, just all or nothing, but no pattern.

the way it reads to me, and to people who see him/have seen him, is that he's a horse who has to have an agenda, and when theres nothing in it for him, he will do as much as HE wants and then ive had it...............so i try and keep him wanting to please, i certainly couldnt force him though it.

i always feels i have to meet him half way, and make a bit of a deal and we always quit whilst we are ahead, even if thats after 20mins, or else its like he resents being asked for MORE when he's already given me *a freebie* if that makes any sense.

has had legs, back,teeth, tack checked to umpteenth degree. I could MRI, or x ray back etc etc but where do you even start if so far everything comes up clear, i could spend thousands i dont have search for something that doesnt exist. if he EVER gave me anything definate to go on, lameness, soreness, one sidedness etc etc, i would jump on it.
I gambled on the omeprazole over a scope and thankfully it came off as has made a huge diff to him, but MRI or x ray has not alternative.

the one and only thing i did wonder, much as i would hate to do it, was if he needed shoes to support the increased collection. he trots up sound as a pound on tarmac, and flexes sound and doesnt respond to pressure testers so i dont think he has foot pain per se, but does he need shoes to support the fact that he's doing a job he isnt bred for? im not a mad believer in shoes supporting jack, but i dont want to dismiss it on that basis.


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## Supanova (1 August 2012)

I really feel for you PS!  It is so difficult to know for sure what causes a horse's behaviour, but it sounds like you've done pretty much all you can on the pain investigation front without getting him scanned.  You also have no real reason to do that given that actually he is going quite well most of the time!  He certainly looks very well from the pictures.  What does your vet think?  

I personally wouldn't think its the lack of shoes.  If his feet are in good condition and he's sound on tarmac and with hoof testers then no reason to think he needs shoes.

Perhaps as you've said, its just his personality? Perhaps he is just taking the mick as there are no real consequences of him misbehaving.  The planting you describe when you are jumping does sound like he's got a bit of an attitude.  

The only other thing i can think of - have you tried Winning Edge or Cool, Calm & Collected?  Winning Edge has helped my mare's brain like you wouldn't believe.  She is so much more relaxed but at the same time more energetic and willing to do her work.


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (1 August 2012)

he was a lovely boy when i rode this morning, at home he is 99% well behaved and the other 1% no worse than any other normal horse.
again, i hope this makes sense-he is always going to be idle, thats him, and given half a chance would drop behind my leg in a flash, but because ive been so *on it* he is now like a normal lazy horse, takes a few sharp transitions to get him truly in front of me and then we are away, where as before he was dangerously behind me at times and totally un-responsive to any forward aid.

im always going to have to be aware of him trying to drop behind me but no more so than some clients horses i ride.

its just,when he goes, he goes just as much as he always has! the explosion maybe less frequent, but are no less impressive, but its probably unrealistic to expect that-horses always have their *thing* be it bucking, rearing, getting fizzy or heavy in the hand etc, and when they arent happy (for whatever reason) they always resort to that same *thing*. his is to stand up.

im quite sure he's not madly happy to be a dressage horse, but he's a classic couch potato who would rather do nothing, and doing anything at all is a bit of a chore! so we have our agreements about how much of what we do etc and as long as he keeps improving, ill keep on working through this.

vet says he's a funny character and he wouldnt go in the field without me with him lol!

as another example of his *quirks*, one of his fave games is to wait for a big group of birds to settle in the paddock, then run at them and thus scatter them, then wait for them to re-settle and repeat....................he'll do it 4/5 times in a row, and will also run next doors sheep away from *his fence*, and run the yard cats off the paddock fence.
he really truly believes its HIS world, and he is in charge.

edited to add-that if a man he doesnt know goes in to the field, he will puff up and stand between them and the other horses..............a friends boyfriend walked up the field to meet us and CS very deliberately walked half way to meet us and then put himself right in front of us and squared up. as soon as it was just me he deflated. 

i think i said on a previous thread that when being bought in he will sometimes nip round the back of you and then stand up, or come round behind you and nip at you, he's very clever at getting in to your space before you've even realised!

tried the CC&C-made no diff .will google winning edge, ta


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## SpottedCat (1 August 2012)

If CCC didn't work, winning edge won't - it's CCC with an added balancer.


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (1 August 2012)

oh, bum 

will be interesting to see how he goes on the equijewel as really feel the re-leve has made him sharper but in a nice way, more concentrated??? so hopefully the EJ can bring his condition back up to scratch.


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## MillionDollar (1 August 2012)

Equi-Jewel is amazing stuff! So think they'll be a real difference with that.


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## alwaysbroke (1 August 2012)

Prince33Sp4rkle said:



			CC&C didnt work on a TB chestnut mare I had years ago, Winning Edge Gold did, since than a lot of research and testing has gone into these products and continues to do so, Malcolm at Equifeast is very approachable and helpful if you give him a call. My Irish TB J came to us scared stiff of men, and refused to contemplate going near a 18 inch filler, this year he has done his first BE90, ridden by a man. He is on Gold, with a 'tweak' on comp days (hasn't done anything recently weather related and then giving me a heartache with a paralysed front leg) but I am convinced the Gold and 'tweak' really helps him. He has also been an angel on box rest and limited in hand walking, has been a very pleasant surprise!
		
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## Sags_Deer (1 August 2012)

Ditto Tempi she sums it up very well.


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## MrsMozart (1 August 2012)

Love the Re-leave and the Equi-Jewel. Only thing that keeps weight on my DWB, IDxTB, and various ex-racers. All without heating them up


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## Booboos (1 August 2012)

Prince33Sp4rkle said:



			he would probably do it at home and in the warm up though, too?
		
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Maybe, maybe not. It could be the extra pressure at a show that tips him over the edge, as does the stress of hacking or (sometimes) jumping.

Have you tried a painkiller trial? Perhaps give him 3 weeks on Danilon and try competing (H/C) to see if there is any difference? It's not definitive, but since you are looking at all options, it's a relatively easy and cheap one to try.


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## wench (1 August 2012)

My horse had a glowing bill of health from my back woman... Five weeks later xrays showed severe kissing spines...


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## TrakehnerFilly (1 August 2012)

I have a horse here with me on loan as a field companion who used to have terrible strops like CS is going through. Hers turned out to be pain related eventually. She was ok on the flat and when asked to work long and low but as soon as she needed to come into a more up frame or when jumping she exploded. It was very hit and miss at first with no pattern so owner did all investigations like scoping for ulcers and vet work up but no xrays yet and came up clear and was put down to behaviour. Then she just completely downed tools and refused to do anything. She then had complete full body x rays and was found to have problems with the base of her neck. She was ok when allowed to stretch down as didn't affect her neck but when required to come up for more advanced moves or in a test, or when she jumped she would feel the pain. It could be worth having this investigated even just to rule out.

Hope you get to the bottom of it soon as you really have done an amazing job with him.


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## Supanova (1 August 2012)

Ditto alwaysbroke re ringing Malcolm at equifeast. Winning edge didn't work that well for me until I put her on magnesium free version. You need to balance it with what you're feeding.


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## Sameru (1 August 2012)

I think he is and will alway be a tricky character - take him out and only do a PSG test - see what you have then?


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## Saratoga (1 August 2012)

The only way anyone on here can really understand what's going on, or make comments on whether he is ready or strong enough for a certain level etc, is by watching him move on vid rather than pics. Can you get some video of him working?


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## mystiandsunny (1 August 2012)

Prince33Sp4rkle said:



			he would come out happily, do a few warm up fences, pop a 60cm course full of beans, then just plant in a corner and say no more. after that, would plant at a pole on floor. the next session he might jump everything fine, the time after he might not even do a warm up jump.no gradual worsening, just all or nothing, but no pattern.
		
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I know you were considering EPSM type things at one point.  The above would match that, and I know you said you work him 5 days a week.  Is there a pattern of how he is after a day off?  My EPSM girl is much stickier the day after a day off - so today for example did go out and jump ok, but less fluidly, less forward, more grumpy about any minor inconsistencies in her rider, simply because she was feeling more stiff herself.  We have to work her, and hard enough to get her heart rate up and racing, the day before, to get the best out of her.  Just a thought, esp as it's often the largest muscle groups that are affected, so the hindquarters, used so much in piris, that would show issues first.

It would also fit with the muscling up issues.  I have a TB at Elem level, and although she's older (13), she's more muscled up than your guy, which shouldn't be possible given the relative levels they're working at.  By contrast my super jumper EPSM mare, always looks undermuscled compared to her level of work, as she struggles to put it on, and does so extremely slowly.


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## charlie76 (1 August 2012)

If he was mine,  I would forget faffing about with his feed.  Every one on here will have a different feed that works for them but mat not work for you.
my first port of call would be to have the vet,  get him to see him ridden,  do some flexions and look at his back.  If he doesn't do it at home then show the vet the video.
if the vet gives him the all clear then you know its a mental rather than physical reason so you can then find a way to move forward be it taking ghetto pressure off,  dropping back a few levels and/or looking at the way you ride him at home and at shows.
Without eliminating a physical reason you are and always will be clutching at straws and if he is in pain,  at seven,  working at that level,  he will eventually jack it altogether which would be a shame.


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (2 August 2012)

i dont think its faffing with feeds, ive made ONE change (from winergy to re leve) and its made a BIG diff, which is a positive thing, no???? if it is EPSM then feed plays a huge role and its important to get it right, so not sure why you would dismiss that.

i also mentioned that he has seen the vet and the back lady that the vet reccomends and thus far nothing has shown up. If i had anything to pinpoint i could go down the scan/x ray route but at the moment its a wil goose chase. The only thing i guess i could do is thermal image him as its not that £££ and its very easy-will give them an email.

mysti-he too is stickier after a day off. adding loads of liquid oil didnt seem to help him at all, but the re leve made an instant difference so will stick with that and the equijewel when it arrives.
i always work him the day before an outing so he will never have been jumping or been to a show without being worked the day before but it could just be plain muscle fatigue, so i think either doing no piris in the warm up or only the PSG would be good things to try, to combat that????

saratoga-will try and get vid, but next show im going to NMT cant make it so it will depend on how good replacement slave is with the camera lol. I can get home footage no problem but if anyone wants to see the explosion it will need to be from a show (although thinking positive, maybe he wont do it again?!!!!!!)


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## jessamess (2 August 2012)

He is lovely, and you have done so well, I admire your posts every time! 

Just a thought, although don't know too much about your history ect to comment confidently, have you tried the Allen & Page barely/molasses free feeds, Such as Fast Fibre and the Molasses Free Hi-Fi/Alfa  A?


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## Sneedy (2 August 2012)

Ive not got much to add, I think you do a grand job with him and I'm sure you'd do anything to get him right!

So, my suggestion, for what it's worth! Why don't you ask your trainer to hop on him to see if he can feel anything? It may help eliminate the 'blame' being put on you or CS??


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## Ferdinase514 (2 August 2012)

Sorry to be slow to reply to you, been working reall yhard all week so I can take some time off to watch the Olympic stressage. 

Ummm, I think he does look a bit weaker. How about a couple of weeks of stuffing him with food and lunging? Might give him a bit a break and let him build himself. I did it with Finn a few times when he was coming back from colic and it worked really well.


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## stolensilver (2 August 2012)

He's telling you to F Off. That's very clear. The question is why?

 Since its only happening in the pirouettes and has happened to right and to left it's unlikely to be a single injury or single area of pain. Since its only happening at shows where you are both under more pressure and trying harder I believe he's saying that pirouettes are at the edge of his strength and ability right now. They are fragile both mentally and physically. He finds them hard. (Don't most horses?!) 

  How about keeping the mental image of the pirouette being fragile, like a spun piece of glass? If you put too much pressure on it, it will break. If you touch it too often, it will break. Work around the piris. Do other exercises. Give him time to get stronger. Don't push them right now or you risk him getting a big hang up about them mentally and his currently occasional explosions about them could turn into a consisitant flat out refusal to even attempt them. Coax him a little bit. :0) 

 This issue sounds as if it's stemming from a lack of strength and rolling into a mental issue. He finds pirouettes hard and a bit uncomfortable, like doing a very tough session at the gym. He's trying his best to do them at home but in a competition environment something else is added to the mix, maybe your body tension, maybe his, and it just puts him over the edge. If he was a human athlete he'd be given other exercises to do wouldn't he? The top dressage riders work each set of muscles separately rather than doing movements. Can you find someone who can teach you how to do that and back off the piris for a while till he's stronger? Keeping on doing them doesn't sound like a productive way to go and risks him breaking. They are so tough on the horse's hind legs.


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## stolensilver (2 August 2012)

Something else to have a think about is your body positioning. I'm sure you know that your body position isn't quite where it should be in the half passes. (not being critical, just trying to help) I'd be surprised if there wasn't something similar happening with your body position in the pirouettes.

It is incredibly easy to block a pirouette with your seat. You don't even have to be in the wrong position to do it, just having too much muscle tension in your gluteus muscles can be enough. And since a pirouette is controlled rearing while turning, most horses respond to being blocked by going up. Even horses that don't normally rear. 

The suggestion of riding a horse or two that are confirmed in the canter pirouettes is a good one. Make sure you can get a good piri on another horse, work on strengthening Star and then put the two elements back together. 

This part of the strengthening work towards GP is slow. It will probably be a year before he's truly strong enough to do the piris without struggling.


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (2 August 2012)

stolensilver said:



			He's telling you to F Off. That's very clear. The question is why?

 Since its only happening in the pirouettes and has happened to right and to left it's unlikely to be a single injury or single area of pain. Since its only happening at shows where you are both under more pressure and trying harder I believe he's saying that pirouettes are at the edge of his strength and ability right now. They are fragile both mentally and physically. He finds them hard. (Don't most horses?!) 

  How about keeping the mental image of the pirouette being fragile, like a spun piece of glass? If you put too much pressure on it, it will break. If you touch it too often, it will break. Work around the piris. Do other exercises. Give him time to get stronger. Don't push them right now or you risk him getting a big hang up about them mentally and his currently occasional explosions about them could turn into a consisitant flat out refusal to even attempt them. Coax him a little bit. :0) 

 This issue sounds as if it's stemming from a lack of strength and rolling into a mental issue. He finds pirouettes hard and a bit uncomfortable, like doing a very tough session at the gym. He's trying his best to do them at home but in a competition environment something else is added to the mix, maybe your body tension, maybe his, and it just puts him over the edge. If he was a human athlete he'd be given other exercises to do wouldn't he? The top dressage riders work each set of muscles separately rather than doing movements. Can you find someone who can teach you how to do that and back off the piris for a while till he's stronger? Keeping on doing them doesn't sound like a productive way to go and risks him breaking. They are so tough on the horse's hind legs.
		
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absolutely, and i hope no one thinks im drilling these repeatedly!

as per horsemads post, im doing all the suppling, the bending, the on and back, the balancing work and not just riding the actual piris......coming round a step then forward, then round a step, then forward, then tighter, then bigger etc etc to try and keep him on my seat better/build up the control.

completely agree re potential of blocking with seat, sadly the GP horse i used to have lessons on is now retired, so if anyone can point me in direction of schoolmaster lessons in Leics, that would be grand


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## Amymay (2 August 2012)

Can your trainer recomend a school master?


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## Amymay (2 August 2012)

Very interesting listening to the commentary on the dressage about the age of horses competing at the higher levels, and how the younger horses competed at those levels simply don't last.

About says it all for me PS.


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## Leg_end (2 August 2012)

Prince33Sp4rkle said:



			i dont think its faffing with feeds, ive made ONE change (from winergy to re leve) and its made a BIG diff, which is a positive thing, no???? if it is EPSM then feed plays a huge role and its important to get it right, so not sure why you would dismiss that.
		
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Well thats not entirely true as I know you've tried pure feeds recently and you came off something else to try the PF stuff.. 



Prince33Sp4rkle said:



			i also mentioned that he has seen the vet and the back lady that the vet reccomends and thus far nothing has shown up. If i had anything to pinpoint i could go down the scan/x ray route but at the moment its a wil goose chase.
		
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But he's not had a full lameness work up nor has the vet seen him ridden (from the posts you've previously written) so unless he was obviously lame the vet will not have picked it up. Also, the physio my old vet recommended missed something pretty major with my old horse so I would maybe get another opinion. Plus others have said they have had similar experiences and surely you must know he just isn't right at the moment otherwise why are you constantly posting about it asking for feedback??



stolensilver said:



			He's telling you to F Off. That's very clear. The question is why?

This issue sounds as if it's stemming from a lack of strength and rolling into a mental issue. He finds pirouettes hard and a bit uncomfortable, like doing a very tough session at the gym. He's trying his best to do them at home but in a competition environment something else is added to the mix, maybe your body tension, maybe his, and it just puts him over the edge. If he was a human athlete he'd be given other exercises to do wouldn't he? The top dressage riders work each set of muscles separately rather than doing movements. Can you find someone who can teach you how to do that and back off the piris for a while till he's stronger? Keeping on doing them doesn't sound like a productive way to go and risks him breaking. They are so tough on the horse's hind legs.
		
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stolensilver said:



			This part of the strengthening work towards GP is slow. It will probably be a year before he's truly strong enough to do the piris without struggling.
		
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^^Agreed - he needs more time.


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (2 August 2012)

yes, i did try pure feeds by that was a couple of months ago at least and tried for an entirely different reason, so not relevant to this at all, thus not mentioned, so kindly dont imply im trying to decieve. its not relevant to this post, and was long enough ago to have no knock on effect at all.

amymay-bit different though, to be competing at international GP at 8 (as some horses are) and to be doing local national PSG at 7.......if he does PSG again next year (which was always the intention), and even if he moves up a level a year after that (it may well take longer), he will be 11 by the time he does GP as a minimum, which doesnt sound excessively young to me.

its also completely OTT to say he isnt right at the min-he's more right than he's ever been in terms of work at home and rideability in the ring. We've had a duff start to the season due to my back and then his stomach, but as i keep repeating-at home, in the warm up, and until the last 2 shows, in the ring, he's felt fantastic. Yes im constantly musing about tweaking things because of thoughts over ulcers or EPSM, but everyone is (or should be) constantly thinking  about any improvements they could make, it would be slack not to do so, so i wont apologise for airing my musings to get feedback.

perhaps i should muse less openly and pretend everything is always SO easy and SO perfect all the time, like some do, to give the impression its all plain sailing?????????????

im sure i question myself no more than anyone else, i just out all my thoughts out there in the public domain............im sure plenty of you try new rugs, new feed, new warm up, different managment, and never post about it, so it seems like you never question yourself etc.

this is being hugely blown out of proportion-everyone has problems, and some horses are more *vocal* than others in saying "no".

the horse had a full lameness work up as a 4yo,incl nerve blocks, when his stifle was investigated and nothing was found. his behavior was far worse then, than now.
since then he has had 2 further check ups at home, incl hard flexions and lunging on a hard surface.
im looking in to thermal imagining as a final check up.


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## Amymay (2 August 2012)

amymay-bit different though, to be competing at international GP at 8 (as some horses are) and to be doing local national PSG at 7
		
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Yes, to a point, absolutely.

But as you clearly have a problem, it's certainly worth thinking about.  

You are eager, ambitious and determined.  But time to back off a bit I'd say - let your horse have some fun by taking the pressure off and going off and doing other things.  Having come out of racing he'll be more than capable of doing some of the things discussed earlier to help him relax and have a different focus on life.

I'm not sure I necessarily agree that there is a physical problem with your horse - but it would be pounds well spent given your plans for the future to have him checked out by a competent equine vet.




			this is being hugely blown out of proportion-everyone has problems, and some horses are more *vocal* than others in saying "no".
		
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You asked for feedback, it's interesting how much of it is the same.  As for horses being vocal in saying 'no'.  Most people listen......

Good luck.


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## Leg_end (2 August 2012)

Prince33Sp4rkle said:



			yes, i did try pure feeds by that was a couple of months ago at least and tried for an entirely different reason, so not relevant to this at all, thus not mentioned, so kindly dont imply im trying to decieve. its not relevant to this post, and was long enough ago to have no knock on effect at all.
		
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We'll agree to disagree on this one because I've had a quick look back at your threads and the feed queries have all been around the times you've been having issues and you thought he had ulcers so it is sort of related as ulcers = worse behaviour from him and you don't know 100% if this has been totally solved so could be relevant.



Prince33Sp4rkle said:



			its also completely OTT to say he isnt right at the min-he's more right than he's ever been in terms of work at home and rideability in the ring. We've had a duff start to the season due to my back and then his stomach, but as i keep repeating-at home, in the warm up, and until the last 2 shows, in the ring, he's felt fantastic.
		
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But he isn't right.. on more than one occasion he has gone bolt upright in the ring and is now frightening the judges and bolting in the warm up like he used to do - in no way is that right at all! He may be being a total git but as you havent investigated anything you do not actually know. You've said yourself that his behaviour has improved since he's been on the ulcer stuff so his worse behaviour before was pain related so I'm not sure why you think its totally unreasonable for it to be something like that this time round...



Prince33Sp4rkle said:



			perhaps i should muse less openly and pretend everything is always SO easy and SO perfect all the time, like some do, to give the impression its all plain sailing?????????????
		
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But we are all aware it is not plain sailing. We all know what great grounders horses can be. However I have learnt - and from all your previous threads you should as well - that as soon as you ask for people to get involved then you leave yourself open to critisism which is why many don't do it.

All decent owners will be questioning themselves and their training and we all should want the best for our horses, there is nothing wrong with that. What I find odd about all your posts is that they always ask for advice but you rarely follow it and get shirty when people pull you up on things.



Prince33Sp4rkle said:



			the horse had a full lameness work up as a 4yo,incl nerve blocks, when his stifle was investigated and nothing was found. his behavior was far worse then, than now.
since then he has had 2 further check ups at home, incl hard flexions and lunging on a hard surface.  im looking in to thermal imagining as a final check up.
		
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Im glad you are looking at thermal imaging, that should answer some questions for you but a lameness work up as a four year old will be in no way valid as a 7yo! He has changed so much in the last 12 months, let alone the last 3 years. I think you are silly to ignore so much good advice that has been given to you and to what your horse is telling you.

At the end of the day he is your horse and its your choice and only you will have to live with the repurcussions.


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## Quadro (2 August 2012)

Leg_end speaks an huge amount of sense!!! I have a horse who is now 8 although has done sod all for his age due to injury but that is another story! 
He is very very capable jumper and i bought him with 1m40 in mind. I know he can jump these heights as we have done it at home with my trainer and although he will never stops you can just tell he does not WANT to jump them.
He would much rather play at a level he is comfortable at and in fact has started eventing and seems to be doing pretty well!
Now i know its not what i wanted him to do but i would rather that he is happy enjoying himself rather than making him do something that he is not happy with.
Q


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (2 August 2012)

because ive in no way taken advice on ulcers, changed his feed after advice on here, or taken on board a lot of the ideas for training, or said i would try doing 1 class, or doing no piris in the warm up etc-its going to take time to work through every available option, i cannot try every idea at once!

no idea where you have the idea he's bolting in the warm up, please point out where ive said that?

ive also said he's seen the vet twice since that work up, and they saw no further reason to follow it up with more nerve blocks etc, and although i accept they are not gods, on a horse that shows no a single *off* step,is NEVER back sore, and performs well at home, what exactly should i be checking? the vet has seen the horse in the flesh.

amymay-not sure what you mean. i wont hack, he doesnt want to jump. he does poles and cnater work in the field, what else *should* he be capable of doing?!


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## wench (2 August 2012)

The thermal imaging I had done for my horse did not show up the kissing spines.


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## TarrSteps (2 August 2012)

Sometimes - especially with horses - the solution isn't to try harder, it's to try easier. 

I was lucky enough to talk to a car full of FEI judges once about a class they had just judged. They all raved about a horse that had effectively debuted at PSG that day, winning by a huge margin over more experienced horses, and the phrase that jumped out at me was their agreement he had 'joy in his work'. A lovely phrase. 

Sometimes, just as with people, the quickest way forward is backward. Go back to where he was happy and comfortable in his work. Figure it out from there.

No offence, but stop asking people's opinions about things they've not dealt with personally. I know training is training but you're now at the margins of what most horses can EVER do, and that's different territor than most of us ever touch on. Go to someone whose dressage horses you admire and would like to ride, ask for the benefit of their experience and the experience of all the people who have shaped it. I know you do go to get help but again,.you're playing a different game now and you have to trust the people who train you implicitly.


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## TarrSteps (2 August 2012)

And stolensilver talks a lot of sense.


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## MillionDollar (2 August 2012)

Just thought another good idea would be to do your test at home this weekend and get it filmed, and then at your next outing get that filmed too  Would be very interesting for you, you can pause/slow mo it to look at him and you, and then you can show others for suggestions (if he does explode at show test).

Also I agree with FMC that lunging would be good idea, prehaps 2/3 times per week for a few weeks. Will he lunge in a pessoa, you can then even lunge over raised poles!?


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## MillionDollar (2 August 2012)

Have to say after using thermal imaging on my boy I will never bother again with it. It completely missed where he was sore


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## charlie76 (2 August 2012)

When I first started introducing lateral work to my horse he would stand up. When he wouldn't work through it I had the vet who said there was nothing wrong, so I could work him through it was a clear conscious that he wasn't physically struggling.  
He simply found it mind blowing and in turn I discovered that in my ambitions to get him to a certain level I had missed some of the basics and not allowed him enough time mentally.  
I took some big steps back with him training and didn't compete for a long time.  Frustrating but I have a far better horse for it now


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## charlie76 (2 August 2012)

Finally,  if some one posted on here that their event horse suddenly started rearing and refusing mid course no one would suggest a feed change,  they would say to get the horse checked and drop down to a level the horse was happy with until it wad easy and then slowly move back up.  No reason why message should be any different.


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## charlie76 (2 August 2012)

Dressage! Not message


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## BeckyC (2 August 2012)

Something I find quite interesting in this forum is that if anyone has the slightest problem with their horse they are always jumped on for doing too much too early yet there are some 9yo that are competing at the very highest level in all disciplines. It is not generally considered maybe the horse is just a tricky horse and just needs a bit more work than the easier going types of horses.  Very rarely people seem to be applauded for persisting with a tricky horse (except for after the horse has begun to go well) and are just faced with judgement and criticism instead.  PS is obviously aware of the problems and is asking for help and the horse seems to want for nothing and have the best possible care and I for one think she is doing a great job with an obviously tricky horse.


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## KatB (2 August 2012)

Have to completely agree with tarrsteps. 

There are very few people on here (me included!) who have any idea about the training and management of higher level dressage horses, and there are so many ways to do things, it is a minefield! Chat to A (as I am sure you will), he knows you and the horse, and will be able to tell you what he thinks is the problem. Consolidating at the lower levels may be a plan though, keep playing with the higher movements at home until they are second nature and as easy as possible, and then see what you're left with  

Look forward to seeing more progressional posts, and tbh I think it should be applauded that you are always thinking of ways to improve matters, but sometimes I think it is better just to air these thoughts to people who best know you and the horse


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## meardsall_millie (2 August 2012)

BeckyC said:



			Something I find quite interesting in this forum is that if anyone has the slightest problem with their horse they are always jumped on for doing too much too early yet there are some 9yo that are competing at the very highest level in all disciplines. 




			No but they're not on here asking for advice about problems they're having with their horses 

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## MillionDollar (2 August 2012)

BeckyC said:



			Something I find quite interesting in this forum is that if anyone has the slightest problem with their horse they are always jumped on for doing too much too early yet there are some 9yo that are competing at the very highest level in all disciplines. It is not generally considered maybe the horse is just a tricky horse and just needs a bit more work than the easier going types of horses.  Very rarely people seem to be applauded for persisting with a tricky horse (except for after the horse has begun to go well) and are just faced with judgement and criticism instead.  PS is obviously aware of the problems and is asking for help and the horse seems to want for nothing and have the best possible care and I for one think she is doing a great job with an obviously tricky horse.
		
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Agreed! Valegro was 9 when he came out on the International GP scene...........didn't hear anyone saying he was too young.

I personally think Star is just a quirky horse and he just tries to get out of doing what he is supposed to b doing


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## wench (2 August 2012)

Becky -  how many people have had a tricky horse, and in hind site should have done something different, hence the suggestions they come out with.

I gave you an explination of my awkward TB in your post a few days ago. I should have sent him to a pro, no questions asked. He came from a home where he had been let to get away with blue murder, so threw the toys out of the pram when he couldnt be bothered to do something. In hindsite, he may have had a touch of KS, as was quite often cold-backed.

I also mentioned my mare who had KS. Things started going wrong with her well over a year ago. If I had taken her to a vets for more investigation, who knows, I may have been able to do more for her.


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## MillionDollar (2 August 2012)

Also agree KAtB. Everyone has their own views/opinions/ways of doing things. It's each to their own


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## charlie76 (2 August 2012)

And you do have to consider that most horses competing at that level are bred and produced from day one with Dressage in mind whereas this horse was bred and trained for a different job. Op has done well to get him to this level and I am not taking that away but maybe its too much too soon.  He is seven.,  even he was competing at medium this soon it would be an achievement.  You have plenty of time.


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## Amymay (2 August 2012)

BeckyC said:



			Something I find quite interesting in this forum is that if anyone has the slightest problem with their horse they are always jumped on for doing too much too early yet there are some 9yo that are competing at the very highest level in all disciplines. It is not generally considered maybe the horse is just a tricky horse and just needs a bit more work than the easier going types of horses.  Very rarely people seem to be applauded for persisting with a tricky horse (except for after the horse has begun to go well) and are just faced with judgement and criticism instead.  PS is obviously aware of the problems and is asking for help and the horse seems to want for nothing and have the best possible care and I for one think she is doing a great job with an obviously tricky horse.
		
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I can't agree.  This forum (CR) is hugely supportive of its posters.  I've rarely seen a criticism that the horse is 'too young' and have seen plenty of platitudes towards those who persist with a genuinely tricky horse.


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## Amymay (2 August 2012)

MillionDollar said:



			Agreed! Valegro was 9 when he came out on the International GP scene...........didn't hear anyone saying he was too young.
		
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I don't see how you can possibly compare Valegro and CS's horse.......


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## Pasha (2 August 2012)

I agree with Tarrsteps and KatB - yes there have been loads of useful suggestions on this thread but I think you need to revisit with your trainer (or their trainer) - someone who's trained dozens of horses up to and beyond PSG and take their advice! They will know where you are going wrong or if it's too much for him and can put a plan of action together for you.

Good luck - I hope to see a Red Rosette PSG post in the future from you


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## charlie76 (2 August 2012)

Omg.  You can't compare valegro and the posters horse.  Valegro was produced by the best riders in the world and if any of their horses did show this behavior in the ring you would never know.  They would simply be moved on to do a job they will do,  we would never hear of them.


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## toomanyhorses26 (2 August 2012)

I have a little TB mare that I purchased a year ago from the meat man who is beautifully bred and on the face of things should be a superstar but its what goes on between her ears that stops her. I spent most of last year on the floor,flying through the air and generally not where you should be on a horse  and we went so far back to basics that she was practically rebroken (obv not suggesting this for CS ) but just by taking that pressure off of what she had come to expect from being ridden. 

Obv given what you have said hacking isnt an option but that was the thing that worked for her we hacked and hacked and hacked until she was happy to take a contact and to keep going forward rather than immediately chucking her head between her knees the moment there was any rein contact. After the year from hell as such she came out on sunday and won her riding horse class - if i hadnt backed off and literally taken things as fast as she wanted she would def be ina can of pedigree by now.

You obv want to do the best by Star ,its obv through your posts how much you think of him and just by taking that pressure off both you and him - stay at a lower level,dressage to music etc i think you will find yourself with a more mentally established horse. My other TB is 11 this year and i have to be honest its only in the last year that the brain has caught up with the body as such and he is far far less reactive/spooky than he was this time last year - i havent done anything different just him growing up 

Kepp on posting I love to see the progress and your journey with him gives me something to aim for


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## Leg_end (2 August 2012)

Prince33Sp4rkle said:



			no idea where you have the idea he's bolting in the warm up, please point out where ive said that?
		
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Maybe bolting was the wrong definition, you actually said "ugly galloping about" which isnt quite the same, however I would be just as displeased with "ugly galloping about" and that does not show a happy horse.



Prince33Sp4rkle said:



			ive also said he's seen the vet twice since that work up, and they saw no further reason to follow it up with more nerve blocks etc, and although i accept they are not gods, on a horse that shows no a single *off* step,is NEVER back sore, and performs well at home, what exactly should i be checking? the vet has seen the horse in the flesh.
		
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I dont know.. as i said i'm throwing it out there as per your request for ideas. Its clear the horse is going through something, whether that is physical or mental, and as Charlie76 said if you check it and rule it out you wouldn't get replies such as mine and others. Surely it must be at the back of your mind that there *could* be something going on?


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## TarrSteps (2 August 2012)

I take BeckyC's point but I'd make two in reply.

One, it's not the tricky ones coming out at 9. The tricky ones are still at home, being tricky. A handful of horses - most of them purpose bred, I might add - find advanced work very easy. They have the natural strength, suppleness and trainability to need relatively little preparation. That's what those Young Horse classes are designed to spot and many of the real talents don't even do those, because they're home learning to be GP horses.

Two, a nine year old coming out at GP is NEVER the first horse someone has made to that level. And, I'd hazard a guess, is probably under the guidance of someone who has made a score of them if not more.

I get your point, that it takes work to reach a goal but I would say the horses you reference are actually 'easy' at least by the standards of their chosen discipline. They are not working harder, they are working easier.


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## BeckyC (2 August 2012)

TarrSteps said:



			I take BeckyC's point but I'd make two in reply.

One, it's not the tricky ones coming out at 9. The tricky ones are still at home, being tricky. A handful of horses - most of them purpose bred, I might add - find advanced work very easy. They have the natural strength, suppleness and trainability to need relatively little preparation. That's what those Young Horse classes are designed to spot and many of the real talents don't even do those, because they're home learning to be GP horses.

Two, a nine year old coming out at GP is NEVER the first horse someone has made to that level. And, I'd hazard a guess, is probably under the guidance of someone who has made a score of them if not more.

I get your point, that it takes work to reach a goal but I would say the horses you reference are actually 'easy' at least by the standards of their chosen discipline. They are not working harder, they are working easier.
		
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I completely agree with those points it just seems like PS is constantly jumped on when she is just requesting for help with many people reiterating the same point again and again which is just bound to annoy her as its irritating the crap out of me and im not even her   some horses also no matter what level they are doing will always be quirky, i have a ISH which is laid back to the point of being horizontal no matter what you do with it and i have my nutty TB who can throw a tantrum at even the easiest dressage test.


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## Tempi (2 August 2012)

amymay said:



			I don't see how you can possibly compare Valegro and CS's horse.......
		
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I was wondering that aswell..........


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## Leg_end (2 August 2012)

BeckyC said:



			some horses also no matter what level they are doing will always be quirky, i have a ISH which is laid back to the point of being horizontal no matter what you do with it and i have my nutty TB who can throw a tantrum at even the easiest dressage test.
		
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And that's the point, I bet you manage them completely differently and take the quirkiness into consideration - you should be able to do much more with the laid back horse because training him is 'easier'. 



BeckyC said:



			I completely agree with those points it just seems like PS is constantly jumped on when she is just requesting for help with many people reiterating the same point again and again which is just bound to annoy her as its irritating the crap out of me and im not even her 

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The reason PS gets the responses she does is because she asks for advice, only aknowledges the responses she wants to hear and gets shirty with people who reiterate points maybe thinking there's strength in numbers or she hasnt seen the original reply. 

People on forums will always reiterate what previous posters have said, the same as in RL. I am sure PS doesn't have an issue with it when people are complimenting her over and over again


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## Festive_Felicitations (2 August 2012)

Nothing to add that hasn't allready been said and discussed - other than he doesnt like to make life easy does he? 

Oh and I LOVE this picture! I think he looks relaxed, happy, and it is just generally a beautiful picture - his outline etc



Prince33Sp4rkle said:








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## Amymay (2 August 2012)

BeckyC said:



			I completely agree with those points it just seems like PS is constantly jumped on
		
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Again, I don't see that.  She has in fact opened what is very, very interesting discussion - when all the points are taken on board.




			she is just requesting for help with many people reiterating the same point again and again
		
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Which is also part of an active discussion.


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## Brecon (2 August 2012)

just thinking a break could help? He has done a lot without much of a break from the sound of it and you say yourself you cant use hacking or jumping even to do this.  My own horse often goes far better after some time off even if its only a week or so.  another friends dressage horse had just got to PSG when was turned away for a period of time, he was always prone to tantrums in the changes but having come back into work is going far better and doing them very easily.  just a thought espeically as hes come up the levels so quickly.


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## NR99 (2 August 2012)

CS, I'm not going to get into the level of work load you are asking in relation to what you are aiming to achieve as I'm not experienced at this level.

I just wanted to give you our experience of a horse who acted in a very similar way to CS.  He was a 7yo TB who could worked easily at novice level, he would jump and he would hack and seemed to enjoy all.  However he would get 45 mins through a flat lesson and be working really well and then suddenly explode.  He would always do his first test nicely in a comp and then have a real tantrum in the second.  He would get half way round the XC course and then explode, but would not be nappy and would happily carry on away from home.  He would not do it every time and never if he was on an easy hack or not being asked to work to hard on the flat.

He was fairly new to us and at first we thought he was just challenging R, but eventually I concluded he was in pain.  He would always once he had exploded and generally unseated R stop until she got her self organised and stirrups back like he generally did not want to hurt her.  But if asked to work again he would try and start up though he could be got through it.  It took ages to convince the vets it was pain related as he would always trot up sound, eventually they agreed he showed lameness all round after much investigation and persuasion from me.  He was diagnosed with PSD and they were going to operate, then a specialist looked at his MRI and picked up issues in the front feet and they said they wouldn't operate.  We decided to give him a year off, but 8 months later he was so uncomfortable in the field,  we had to say goodbye.

I'm not in any way suggesting CS has such serious issues, but I really think you should consider getting a more constructive work up done.  I know it is not cheap but you could end up spending a fortune trying to self diagnose, is he insured?

I also think Tarrsteps is right, talk to people experienced in your discipline at this level the people on this forum who despite meaning well do not have the experience to draw on to give you thorough advice.

Additionally, if your budget is really an issue then perhaps you could try Booboos idea of competing HC on painkillers, though take into account you should do a couple of times because as you will know horses can exhibit signs through memory.  This will give you something to talk to your trainer and vet about.

Good luck, I hope you get to the bottom of it.


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## Halfstep (2 August 2012)

In this situation after ruling out physical problems, I think you've got two options: 
Drop down a level or two, ease the work and build his strength and ring confidence, keep playing psg movements at home but make comps super easy. 
Or: send him to a v experienced professional (preferably female so not a strong big man as you are quite slight) to ride at psg and see what happens. I could recommend someone if you want.


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## kerilli (2 August 2012)

Halfstep said:



			In this situation after ruling out physical problems, I think you've got two options: 
Drop down a level or two, ease the work and build his strength and ring confidence, keep playing psg movements at home but make comps super easy. 
Or: send him to a v experienced professional (preferably female so not a strong big man as you are quite slight) to ride at psg and see what happens. I could recommend someone if you want.
		
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This looks like really really good advice to me.
TS's posts as ever contain a huge amount of serious horsesense, wisdom and experience.
The reason a lot of us keep on saying that it seems a lot to ask of a 7 yr old TB who keeps chucking his toys out of the pram is because, bluntly, it is!


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## Aces_High (2 August 2012)

Hi PS - I hope all is good!  Anyway you know how well I think you've done with Star but a couple of things ping to mind.  Firstly He's a TB and if he's quirky he'll always be quirky but as you are doing, you're looking out of the box and trying ways to kid him around to your way of thinking - best way with a quirky one.  Secondly I know some horses just don't hack but I am very surprised that he doesn't/won't having been in training.  I know you don't want people bleating on about this subject but a racehorses life is basically hacking with some hard work in the middle!  I know that Star is a rare one but I am yet to meet a racehorse who doesn't hack. (You know that all my experience is in racing!).  I understand his whipping round, rearing and car attacking isn't ideal though!  I am lucky as the traffic around us is mimimal and very good with horses broncing down the road!  Could you take him and Bruce to some local woods and just unbox and go for an amble around?  I currently ride a few horses who do not hack and have been told that due to my relaxed attitude that is why they chill and get on with it.  It's a real racing way to ride but loose rein and just act as if nothing will faze you.  You can generally tell if they are going to do something and that's when I pop a finger or two through my neckstrap so if they do go tonto I have my safety net in place.  Give them a few pats on the neck and continue - sounds stupid but when they are wired and fit and ready to run it's unfair to reprimand when they're having an easy day.  I doubt I am describing it very well - but that's the way the racehorses are ridden.  I am just trying to explain it from a racing point of view to see if that unravels anything - everything is very relaxed and chilled apart from work mornings and on the course.  I am not sure if you watched Frankel yesterday but the main aim in racing is to get a horse to relax, being too wound up means expending too much energy at the wrong time.  Frankel has changed hugely from his 3 to 4 year old career and was ambling around the paddock like a hack yesterday!  For the chasing of anything out of 'his field'.  I have had a number of TB's who do this - even the Princess does this and has killed several pheasants and unfortunately broke the shoulder of my old yard cat - but that's by the by.  Anyway back to the dressage - I don't know enough about it to comment!!  I wouldn't be expecting to see much change in a horses condition in a week!  I would be giving a change in feed 3-4 weeks before I'd expect to see/feel any marked improvement etc. Also for what it's worth I do think he looked better on he Winergy.  But as you know he's a TB and a drop in work etc they drop muscle, shape etc very quickly!!!  Also my favourite photo from this selection is the one that Felicity shared above.  He looks happy, relaxed, concentrating and listening to you.  Lastly huge congratulations on how far you've got and are going with Star - I think an inspiration to a lot of people on here who have kindly homed a racehorse off the track (we need more of you!!!).  Very lastly I've been watching the Olympic dressage and I will be expecting to see you in Rio


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## Lady La La (2 August 2012)

Aces_High said:



			Hi PS - I hope all is good!  Anyway you know how well I think you've done with Star but a couple of things ping to mind.  Firstly He's a TB and if he's quirky he'll always be quirky but as you are doing, you're looking out of the box and trying ways to kid him around to your way of thinking - best way with a quirky one.  Secondly I know some horses just don't hack but I am very surprised that he doesn't/won't having been in training.  I know you don't want people bleating on about this subject but a racehorses life is basically hacking with some hard work in the middle!  I know that Star is a rare one but I am yet to meet a racehorse who doesn't hack. (You know that all my experience is in racing!).  I understand his whipping round, rearing and car attacking isn't ideal though!  I am lucky as the traffic around us is mimimal and very good with horses broncing down the road!  Could you take him and Bruce to some local woods and just unbox and go for an amble around?  I currently ride a few horses who do not hack and have been told that due to my relaxed attitude that is why they chill and get on with it.  It's a real racing way to ride but loose rein and just act as if nothing will faze you.  You can generally tell if they are going to do something and that's when I pop a finger or two through my neckstrap so if they do go tonto I have my safety net in place.  Give them a few pats on the neck and continue - sounds stupid but when they are wired and fit and ready to run it's unfair to reprimand when they're having an easy day.  I doubt I am describing it very well - but that's the way the racehorses are ridden.  I am just trying to explain it from a racing point of view to see if that unravels anything - everything is very relaxed and chilled apart from work mornings and on the course.  I am not sure if you watched Frankel yesterday but the main aim in racing is to get a horse to relax, being too wound up means expending too much energy at the wrong time.  Frankel has changed hugely from his 3 to 4 year old career and was ambling around the paddock like a hack yesterday!  For the chasing of anything out of 'his field'.  I have had a number of TB's who do this - even the Princess does this and has killed several pheasants and unfortunately broke the shoulder of my old yard cat - but that's by the by.  Anyway back to the dressage - I don't know enough about it to comment!!  I wouldn't be expecting to see much change in a horses condition in a week!  I would be giving a change in feed 3-4 weeks before I'd expect to see/feel any marked improvement etc. Also for what it's worth I do think he looked better on he Winergy.  But as you know he's a TB and a drop in work etc they drop muscle, shape etc very quickly!!!  Also my favourite photo from this selection is the one that Felicity shared above.  He looks happy, relaxed, concentrating and listening to you.  Lastly huge congratulations on how far you've got and are going with Star - I think an inspiration to a lot of people on here who have kindly homed a racehorse of the track (we need more of you!!!).  Very lastly I've been watching the Olympic dressage and I will be expecting to see you in Rio 

Click to expand...

What a great, great post!


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## Munchkin (2 August 2012)

I'm another who suspects you are asking too much too soon from this horse. He wasn't bred or originally trained for this job - comparing him to other young GP horses is ridiculous.

My problem here is that you are not prepared to even examine this possibility, as you seem so desperate to be able to say "I compete my ex-racehorse in GP dressage." However, you will be doing no such thing if you continue to pressure and potentially sour him. What is the rush?

Why not listen to what the vast majority are suggesting... and just TRY backing off for a while? Work on perfecting the basics, and on doing some of the other things you talked about (field work, pole work etc.) for a few months... simply to SEE if it makes a difference?

If, when you build him back up, it has made no difference whatsoever, then at least you've written off the possibility and you are free to come back here with an "I told you so" post (and I'm sure you will  ). But you're then left feeling more comfortable that this is an attitude/feed/veterinary issue, rather than a maturity/stress one.

I fully expect you to ignore everything I've just said, but to be honest I'm more concerned about the welfare of your horse than your ego.

Also, yes, CS DOES look more relaxed in some of the pics at the beginning of this thread... but they are just moments in time and shouldn't be such a rarity as they seem to be.


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## charlie76 (2 August 2012)

Munchkin,  exactly !


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## MillionDollar (2 August 2012)

charlie76 said:



			Omg.  You can't compare valegro and the posters horse.  Valegro was produced by the best riders in the world and if any of their horses did show this behavior in the ring you would never know.  They would simply be moved on to do a job they will do,  we would never hear of them.
		
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Why ever not? What a load of tosh! 

Maybe, like I said, Star is just a bit of a stubborn git and just needs pushing through!? I'm pretty positive PS had explosive moments at every level until he was established!!!! I bet he wouldn't explode in a Elementary or Medium test.


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## caterpillar (2 August 2012)

MillionDollar said:



			Why ever not? What a load of tosh! 

Maybe, like I said, Star is just a bit of a stubborn git and just needs pushing through!? I'm pretty positive PS had explosive moments at every level until he was established!!!! I bet he wouldn't explode in a Elementary or Medium test.
		
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If he's not going to explode in an elem or medium test then why not stick at this level until he gains more competition experience?


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## Leg_end (2 August 2012)

MillionDollar said:



			Why ever not? What a load of tosh! 

Maybe, like I said, Star is just a bit of a stubborn git and just needs pushing through!? I'm pretty positive PS had explosive moments at every level until he was established!!!! I bet he wouldn't explode in a Elementary or Medium test.
		
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Maybe he is and from looking at his record he has been explosive at every level at some point and thats not a critisism - I have known of horses who needed the higher level, busier tests to keep their brains occupied but they have all stopped tw@tting around once they have that work to focus on. He is definitely a tricky character, no-one is saying otherwise, but the question is whether there is a reason for that. 

PS has confirmed that he has been happier since being on the ulcer supps but she has also dropped them down to maintainance levels now so could that be having an effect? 

As others have said, PS should be speaking to people who know her and the horse inside out, all the HHO lot can offer are suggestions based on their own experiences which may or may not be at that level but are possibly valid nonetheless.


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## TarrSteps (2 August 2012)

There probably aren't a hundred horses in the world to compare to Valegro right now. . .

Also, I missed the bits where he's been difficult.


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## TarrSteps (2 August 2012)

Hang on, scratch that . . .didn't Charlotte get the ride on that horse because Carl thought it would go better for her and a softer approach? So instead of grinding on, set on their original path, they listened to the horse and went another way with it. . .


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## kerilli (2 August 2012)

TarrSteps said:



			Hang on, scratch that . . .didn't Charlotte get the ride on that horse because Carl thought it would go better for her and a softer approach? So instead of grinding on, set on their original path, they listened to the horse and went another way with it. . .
		
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I think Carl has said he prefers the hotter ones, and didn't think Valegro quite suited his way as much as he suits Charlotte's. And that's a rider/trainer who has oodles of experience producing them to the top.
I'm another who really doesn't think it is fair to compare Valegro, purpose bred for the job for starters as well as having a truly exceptional brain and phenomenal physical talent, to an OTTB, however talented that OTTB is. Apples and pears...


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## trina1982 (2 August 2012)

Prince33Sp4rkle said:



			the way it reads to me, and to people who see him/have seen him, is that he's a horse who has to have an agenda, and when theres nothing in it for him, he will do as much as HE wants and then ive had it...............so i try and keep him wanting to please, i certainly couldnt force him though it.
		
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Have you thought of Clicker training?


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## Vizslak (2 August 2012)

as well as agreeing with the concept of dropping back a level for a while until hes so fundamentally established in PSG at home its like a walk in the park for him the other thing I would do in this situation, to put your mind at rest that there is no physical pain is simply bute trialling for a fortnight, in that time I would actually be inclined to do ALL the things he 'hates' hacking, jumping etc, as well as try and get him out PSG on a ticket and see if there is any marked improvement. No improvement you have part of your definative answer and can move on however you see fit. It's suprising how some physical pain related issues manifest and come to light at odd times, often with no real pattern and undetected by vets/specialists, the only real way to find out without spending thousands unneccassarily is to eliminate the possible pain. I think its worth a shot for your own peace of mind if nothing else.


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## MillionDollar (2 August 2012)

I think we'll agree to disagree, after all we all have our own opinions


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## dressagecrazy (2 August 2012)

I do fully understand where people are coming from with the pain issue, it certainly would be something I would be looking at with my own if I had a situation like this.
But if CS is suffering Ulcers then the last thing PS should be doing is a Bute trial, there are less harsh Anti Inflamatorys that can be used but all carry increased risks with Ulcer horses.
I myself have a horse that suffered Ulcers & Right dorsal Colitis & we have to be ultra careful as to which painkillers he can have if he ever needs them. 

PS if I where in your shoes I would be looking at getting a work up done by a really super vet not just a normal one. I was recently talking to my own trainer about my WB & her words where if you have a horse that is talented then they are worth going the extra mile for in every way. I totally agree with this.


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## Amymay (3 August 2012)

Aces_High said:



			Hi PS - I hope all is good!  Anyway you know how well I think you've done with Star but a couple of things ping to mind.  Firstly He's a TB and if he's quirky he'll always be quirky but as you are doing, you're looking out of the box and trying ways to kid him around to your way of thinking - best way with a quirky one.  Secondly I know some horses just don't hack but I am very surprised that he doesn't/won't having been in training.  I know you don't want people bleating on about this subject but a racehorses life is basically hacking with some hard work in the middle!  I know that Star is a rare one but I am yet to meet a racehorse who doesn't hack. (You know that all my experience is in racing!).  I understand his whipping round, rearing and car attacking isn't ideal though!  I am lucky as the traffic around us is mimimal and very good with horses broncing down the road!  Could you take him and Bruce to some local woods and just unbox and go for an amble around?  I currently ride a few horses who do not hack and have been told that due to my relaxed attitude that is why they chill and get on with it.  It's a real racing way to ride but loose rein and just act as if nothing will faze you.  You can generally tell if they are going to do something and that's when I pop a finger or two through my neckstrap so if they do go tonto I have my safety net in place.  Give them a few pats on the neck and continue - sounds stupid but when they are wired and fit and ready to run it's unfair to reprimand when they're having an easy day.  I doubt I am describing it very well - but that's the way the racehorses are ridden.  I am just trying to explain it from a racing point of view to see if that unravels anything - everything is very relaxed and chilled apart from work mornings and on the course.  I am not sure if you watched Frankel yesterday but the main aim in racing is to get a horse to relax, being too wound up means expending too much energy at the wrong time.  Frankel has changed hugely from his 3 to 4 year old career and was ambling around the paddock like a hack yesterday!  For the chasing of anything out of 'his field'.  I have had a number of TB's who do this - even the Princess does this and has killed several pheasants and unfortunately broke the shoulder of my old yard cat - but that's by the by.  Anyway back to the dressage - I don't know enough about it to comment!!  I wouldn't be expecting to see much change in a horses condition in a week!  I would be giving a change in feed 3-4 weeks before I'd expect to see/feel any marked improvement etc. Also for what it's worth I do think he looked better on he Winergy.  But as you know he's a TB and a drop in work etc they drop muscle, shape etc very quickly!!!  Also my favourite photo from this selection is the one that Felicity shared above.  He looks happy, relaxed, concentrating and listening to you.  Lastly huge congratulations on how far you've got and are going with Star - I think an inspiration to a lot of people on here who have kindly homed a racehorse off the track (we need more of you!!!).  Very lastly I've been watching the Olympic dressage and I will be expecting to see you in Rio 

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Such a great post.

What you need PS is just a good old fashioned 'nagsman' to hack him out for you.


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## KPM (3 August 2012)

amymay said:



			Such a great post.

What you need PS is just a good old fashioned 'nagsman' to hack him out for you.
		
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WHY?! Besides the fact that PS seems to be more than capable of staying in the plate, why is it SO important that CS can hack if he doesnt appear to enjoy it and nor does PS (understandably?!)? And also no doubt increasing the risk of injury to him.

If a horse doesnt like to jump, people don't tend to force the issue, so why with hacking?! PS has already stated she rides him in the field for a break, so why the need to make everyone unhappy just to go for a walk on lanes?! 

Of course in an ideal world everyone would have acres of beautiful hacking and a horse that breathes a deep sigh and ambles on the buckle, but I have said it before and I'll say it again, since when was this an ideal world?!


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## Amymay (3 August 2012)

WHY?! Besides the fact that PS seems to be more than capable of staying in the plate, why is it SO important that CS can hack if he doesnt appear to enjoy it
		
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Of course PS is more than capable of staying in the plate - but different sorts of riders offer up different sorts of skills.

As Aces High has already said, a racehorses life is essentially one of hacking, with cantering in between - and moments of real hard work in racing.  It will have been this horses life whilst in racing.  So whilst I appreciate that it may well be very exciting for him at the moment - chances are he'll have done it day in day out for a number of years either on his own, but more probably in company.  Someone with the ability to ride as Aces High describes can literally 'charm' a horse in to relaxing and enjoying their surroundings.

I've worked with a couple of people in racing, who break, and then 'nag' the horse - it's such an art.  And always worth considering imo.

Competition riders nowadays thankfully appreciate the benefits of giving their horses a break from training, by offering up some sort of other exercise routine.  And even the 'best' get to mooch around out of the school.


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (3 August 2012)

with all due respect to aces high, who has been a valubable source of TB info.....why do i want to force him to hack? to do something that obviously upsets him SO much? something that then impacts on his mental state at a competition? (since stopping hacking, he's been 500% more relaxed in the warm up).
This is not just high spirits, this is a complete meltdown and he's obviously very distressed by the time we get home. It seems a bit at odds to suggest he shouldnt be pushed in the ring when he doesnt want to do it, but should be pushed to hack, even though he quite obviously doesnt find it enjoyable.

and i should also add-he did this when racing, stood up, whipped round, napped, pigged and planted etc. so its not like he used to enjoy the hacking or the galloping then either! I dont want to make him think he's going back to that life again.

The other thing of course, is that is it actually a good idea to purposely put another person in the situation that they may get hurt, knowing he will stand up etc. WE have no hacking that doesnt include road work, and im not sure if morally, letting anyone else try and make him do it, is a wise plan.

we did actually do a bute trial, which oddly made no diff either way, no better, no worse. if anything (given his ulcers) you would expect him to have been a LOT worse, but typically for him, he is the 1 in 10,000 that didnt react lol!

ref the omeprazole-he's been on the maintenance dose a while now with no decline in performance until last weekend, but im going to start giving him extra the day before, day of, and say after, a comp. He's fine at home behaviour wise, so maybe just needs more help on show days?

i warmed him up in the field last night, before moving to the arena for *proper* work, and am going to try and do this a couple of times a week,ground permitting, in addition to his field cantering day. He was very chilled, but nicely forward and after one small nap to fig and bruce, then went and did his *proper* work very sweetly, incl some work on the piris, without a murmur, didnt even flick his tail or cock an ear.

munchkin-i actually found most of your post quite offensive, particularly - "you are free to come back here with an "I told you so" post (and I'm sure you will  )"...........because im not sure ive ever done that?! and its not helpful in any way shape or form.
If i was so worried about my ego i wouldnt post about the problems in the first place, and i also find it interesting that if in any pic he looks tense that means he's crippled with pain and mentally at breaking point, but if he looks relaxed, its just a moment in time! Show me a horse that NEVER looks tense , please.

Theres been loads of good ideas and suggestions, and its a shame that people have to start being inflamatory.

as far as asking the pro's close to me, rather than on here-i have, and  i will, but i love HHO as another resource and have had super advice re ulcers/omeprazole, feed, EPSM, ideas for the warm up etc, so if its ok, ill carry on asking. No one has to, or indeed can, take EVERY bit of advise given, and i wasnt aware you could only ask Q's if you intended to follow every reply to the letter so im also unsure why im being jumped all over for asking for help. Damned if you do and damned if you dont!

as i said, there has been LOADS of good advice given, which ill probably keep re-reading, and i would prefer its stayed on the clinical advise giving track and didnt go off at a personal slant.

if arena uk ever email me back, he's dropping down to 2 x adv med next wed(85 and 92 so easy tests as well), and will take it from there. 
will report back after lesson tonight with trainers thoughts


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## SpottedCat (3 August 2012)

KPM said:



			WHY?! Besides the fact that PS seems to be more than capable of staying in the plate, why is it SO important that CS can hack if he doesnt appear to enjoy it and nor does PS (understandably?!)? And also no doubt increasing the risk of injury to him.

If a horse doesnt like to jump, people don't tend to force the issue, so why with hacking?! PS has already stated she rides him in the field for a break, so why the need to make everyone unhappy just to go for a walk on lanes?! 

Of course in an ideal world everyone would have acres of beautiful hacking and a horse that breathes a deep sigh and ambles on the buckle, but I have said it before and I'll say it again, since when was this an ideal world?!
		
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If he displays the behaviour hacking (which he does) and jumping (which he does), then it is considered reasonable to not make him do these things. If he displays it during a dressage test/warmup (which he does) it is considered reasonable to ride him through it. Why the double standards? If it's not fair to put him through it to jump or hack, then it sure as hell isn't fair to put him through it to compete, which is something we do for our own ends entirely, not for the horses. 

Equally, if it is something he needs to be ridden through, then it seems reasonably logical that riding him through it in all situations may help - after all currently he knows that if he displays behaviour X in two out of 3 situations, he doesn't have to keep doing that activity. It's not unreasonable of him to keep trying it in another situation - after all, it's worked consistently before.....


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## Tempi (3 August 2012)

PS - Try the Protexin Quick Fix before you compete instead of upping the Omeprazole - might be worth a shot?  

I'm taking Bloss for a lesson on Monday, she wont have been out for about 6 weeks and shes now totally off the Omeprazole and is just on Feedmarks Ulcer Calm.  Am going to give the Protexin a go as I know she'll be a little bit stressed as shes not been out for a while.  I'll let you know how we get on.  If shes not been out she comes off the lorry quite tucked up and takes a while to relax so will be interesting to see if it works or not.


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (3 August 2012)

but playing devils advocate-jumping is not important to me, so why force that particular battle? and it would be an awful lot of prolonged battles.
Bit like saying if a SJ'er is happy to jump, it should be made to do perfect flatwork too?

the hacking is a totally different kettle of fish as it gets him absolutely lathered, blowing, and generally beside himself, which is entirely different to the competing problem.

had i not gone out and done the PSG the horse would have had several consistant AM results and more than likely be recieving praise for the improvement in attitude and work. Its not like every single aspect of his work has gone dramatically down hill and i cant do a thing with him-we seem to behaving 1 problem with 1 movement so it seems rather OTT to be saying he clearly doesnt want to do any of it at all!

edit-thanks tempi, please do let me know


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## Amymay (3 August 2012)

Bit like saying if a SJ'er is happy to jump, it should be made to do *perfect flatwork too?*

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Playing devil's advocate back, an awful lot are.......


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## SpottedCat (3 August 2012)

Prince33Sp4rkle said:



			had i not gone out and done the PSG the horse would have had several consistant AM results and more than likely be recieving praise for the improvement in attitude and work. Its not like every single aspect of his work has gone dramatically down hill and i cant do a thing with him-we seem to behaving 1 problem with 1 movement so it seems rather OTT to be saying he clearly doesnt want to do any of it at all!
		
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That kind of says it all though doesn't it? Why not stick at AM until the Adv/PSG stuff is totally solid in a 'safe' environment? Why pressurise him to do something he's clearly struggling with in competition? If the piris were 100% perfect all the time in both directions at home then fine, he needs to learn to reproduce that in competition, but from what you've said, they're not?


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## Leg_end (3 August 2012)

Prince33Sp4rkle said:



			ref the omeprazole-he's been on the maintenance dose a while now with no decline in performance until last weekend, but im going to start giving him extra the day before, day of, and say after, a comp. He's fine at home behaviour wise, so maybe just needs more help on show days?
		
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I think thats a good idea, be interesting to see if it make a difference - do they become resistent to the dose after a while or should 1 sachet (or however its dosed) be enough forever?



Prince33Sp4rkle said:



			No one has to, or indeed can, take EVERY bit of advise given, and i wasnt aware you could only ask Q's if you intended to follow every reply to the letter so im also unsure why im being jumped all over for asking for help. Damned if you do and damned if you dont!
		
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For me the issue was that you simply didnt acknowledge that pushing in or him being uncomfortable could even possibly be an issue when thats what the majority of posters were coming up with and he hasn't had a full work up recently. The posts got more irate as it wasn't even aknowledged and the comparisons people were coming up with were slightly ridiculous  



Prince33Sp4rkle said:



			if arena uk ever email me back, he's dropping down to 2 x adv med next wed(85 and 92 so easy tests as well), and will take it from there. 
will report back after lesson tonight with trainers thoughts 

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I hope the lesson goes well and I think it will be interesting to see what he's like in the second AM test next week. Would be great if you could video them.


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## Stoxx (3 August 2012)

PS, I haven't read the entire post, but the majority.  While I agree that he may need a little step back I've never personally seen him so to give that kind of advice is hard.

I do however have a fair amount of experience with horses that suffer with EGUS.
During the break between your tests do you give him a feed?  I'm just wondering if the extra collection and 'bounce' that is needed to perform a piri is causing a little acid splash and he remembers from the first one and says no to the second?  (which would account for it not being an issue at home (and maybe even in the warm up) because he will generally be more relaxed)
Also, on changing the dose around a competition day, whilst I know many vets advise this, do keep your mind open to the problems this may cause.  My horse is especially sensitive (to anything really!) and if his dose is changed his sensitivity becomes even more heightened.  After all the Omeprazole blocks some acid production so may make them feel different.

The other thing is have you thought about hind-gut ulcers?  I use a product called Succeed and have been having very good results with it along with his maintenance dose of GG.


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## Talented Mare (3 August 2012)

He's a lovely horse and i think maybe go out next time and just do the PSG. he obvs has stuff to work and has alot more stregthening to do so maybe the one class will ease this for him and you and him can work on streghening him for PSG's.  Piri's will come intime, you should probs make them easier for him and drop a  mark rather than him stuggling or having a tantrum. 
You and the boy will enjoy it and get the spring back in your steps......
Also try sit on a school master or someone elses horse and do the piris pref with trainer so they can access your position and the way you ask.


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## Goldenstar (3 August 2012)

I have been reading all this with interest and will continue to do so.
Horses need time and patience .
The hacking thing well I would never accept one of mine not hacking but many dressage horses are training with out this in the mix.
I am training a TB as well all be it in a much more easy ozzy way but I am older and freed from the shackles of ambition ,he too is inclined to the occasion explosions and came to be from a pro yard where I believe the roultine was altogether to his taste. 
I don't mind this in him he's a TB in his DNA to respond with explosive energy but he's sweet and wants to do well I am not sure they had him onside in his last home .
PS I applaud you for putting your self out there so to speak remember always your must enjoy your horse and your horse must enjoy you if you work hard to find the way to achieve this with every horse that comes your way you won't go far wrong .


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## SpottedCat (3 August 2012)

SpottedCat said:



			That kind of says it all though doesn't it? Why not stick at AM until the Adv/PSG stuff is totally solid in a 'safe' environment? Why pressurise him to do something he's clearly struggling with in competition? If the piris were 100% perfect all the time in both directions at home then fine, he needs to learn to reproduce that in competition, but from what you've said, they're not?
		
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Sorry - I totally missed you saying you were going to drop down to two AM tests next time out - that's what starting work at 2.30am will do for your reading and comprehension skills  Didn't mean to labour a point you'd already taken on board, sorry!


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## Scarlett (3 August 2012)

SpottedCat said:



			If he displays the behaviour hacking (which he does) and jumping (which he does), then it is considered reasonable to not make him do these things. If he displays it during a dressage test/warmup (which he does) it is considered reasonable to ride him through it. Why the double standards? If it's not fair to put him through it to jump or hack, then it sure as hell isn't fair to put him through it to compete, which is something we do for our own ends entirely, not for the horses. 

Equally, if it is something he needs to be ridden through, then it seems reasonably logical that riding him through it in all situations may help - after all currently he knows that if he displays behaviour X in two out of 3 situations, he doesn't have to keep doing that activity. It's not unreasonable of him to keep trying it in another situation - after all, it's worked consistently before.....
		
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That's a brilliant point - by not dealing with the jumping/hacking to a degree you're effectively teaching him he can misbehave and get out of doing something he doesn't want to do...

OP - I know his ulcer symptoms are under control but have you thought of giving him something for his stomach between tests? If the pressure is getting to him it may well be causing him discomfort - maybe a chaff feed with some kind of gastric supp or omazeprole in it would help? I feed mine some before travelling and take a bucket with me with Protexin or similar in it - they get that if the are stood for any time or start to get stressy. You may already do this as part of your management anyway but thought it was worth mentioning. It made a difference with my sharp TB girl, she definatley became more accepting of going in the warm up the second time round once we changed that routine and I've carried it on ever since.

Sounds like the right decision to continue with the AM. Will be interested to read how you get on with both that and the new trainer.


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## Scarlett (3 August 2012)

Stoxx said:



			PS, I haven't read the entire post, but the majority.  While I agree that he may need a little step back I've never personally seen him so to give that kind of advice is hard.

I do however have a fair amount of experience with horses that suffer with EGUS.
During the break between your tests do you give him a feed?  I'm just wondering if the extra collection and 'bounce' that is needed to perform a piri is causing a little acid splash and he remembers from the first one and says no to the second?  (which would account for it not being an issue at home (and maybe even in the warm up) because he will generally be more relaxed)
Also, on changing the dose around a competition day, whilst I know many vets advise this, do keep your mind open to the problems this may cause.  My horse is especially sensitive (to anything really!) and if his dose is changed his sensitivity becomes even more heightened.  After all the Omeprazole blocks some acid production so may make them feel different.

The other thing is have you thought about hind-gut ulcers?  I use a product called Succeed and have been having very good results with it along with his maintenance dose of GG.
		
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What I was trying to say but put much better - thank you Stoxx!


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (3 August 2012)

no that fine, dont worry!

i do think that nothing is ever 100% perfect every time, even at home though.......the piris are pretty ok at home, not perfect in terms of FEI definition, but certainly no looping the loop like this. Yes he sometimes tries to take over going right, but then will usually allow me *in* to correct it. Were i having the explosions all the time at home, i wouldnt even have thought of doing the PSG. I understand what you are saying completely, but dont feel like im *winging it* in any way, as if you saw them at home they are more than show ready.

he does have hay between tests (and does eat it) but can try taking some chaff instead for sure 

ref suceed-have heard very mixed reports on it, but will wait to hear tempi's report on the protexin and may try that next.


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## Stoxx (3 August 2012)

When you get a min would you PM me with the reports on Succeed please x

ETA: sorry just sorted PM's out!


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## caterpillar (3 August 2012)

SpottedCat has it spot on (no pun intended!). He has learnt that if he prats about he no longer has to do that activity (jumping and hacking) so he's trying it on in the dressage hoping that he will no longer have to do dressage. He's got one up on you and he knows it.


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## kerilli (3 August 2012)

caterpillar said:



			SpottedCat has it spot on (no pun intended!). He has learnt that if he prats about he no longer has to do that activity (jumping and hacking) so he's trying it on in the dressage hoping that he will no longer have to do dressage. He's got one up on you and he knows it.
		
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Sorry but I disagree with this. Horses just don't analyse like that imho, they react to their environment at the time. He won't be thinking "Oooh, I pratted about hacking so I don't get asked to do it any more, ditto jumping, so if I prat about dressaging I'll never be asked to do that either" - that is human extrapolation and logic, not a horse's!
While I personally would not give up on hacking because it is SO beneficial, I can see why PS doesn't if there's no alternative to roadwork etc. The safety of horse and rider, and other road users of course, is the most important thing. 
So, I'd take him with a quiet companion (and a walker if possible) somewhere with really quiet hacking, and give it a go, if he were mine. They eventually get over the stupidity and are then fine. Honestly. I have one here who now hacks out alone and is safe and boring (well, by my standards anyway) but last year was an utter nightmare who needed a walker every time. I doubt back then I'd have believed I could ever hack her up the drove on the buckle end while catching up on Facebook!   
Good luck with him PS, he's obviously worth the effort.


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (3 August 2012)

really?

so, anyone who has a horse that doesnt enjoy jumping, should go and force them to do it anyway?


you really think that he thinks he's got one over on me so well, that he only feels the need to throw the toys out in the piris?! you really think that makes any kind of sense?

have you read the parts about how he's better since i STOPPED hacking?! or the bit about him getting better and better at home and in the warm up? or the fact that the horse generally prats about a lot less now than he did as a 4/5 yo (when he was hacking and jumping).

so you really think that means he's decided he can bully me out of doing anything at all?

again-OTT reaction. this is ONE problem with ONE movement in ONE environment.

aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah.

now i  really am banging my head on anything and everything!


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## Amymay (3 August 2012)

I think to be fair PS this thread has opened up ponderings on 'all' horses, but referred back to you as it was your thread.

I agree with you that not all horses enjoy jumping.  However sticking a few cross poles up is hardly challenging for _any_ horse - and unless the horse has a physical problem (and ok the odd mental one) then we can all expect our horses to pop them.

But you did say previously that he seemed to enjoy it - then started stopping.  Which is either plain naughty or indicative of a problem.


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## SpottedCat (3 August 2012)

K - I agree they don't think dressage/jumping/hacking - but they do think 'hard work/more difficult' - and this could be what's manifesting here because it is only in the movement he finds difficult!


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## Munchkin (3 August 2012)

Prince33Sp4rkle said:



			i also find it interesting that if in any pic he looks tense that means he's crippled with pain and mentally at breaking point, but if he looks relaxed, its just a moment in time! Show me a horse that NEVER looks tense , please.
		
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Sorry, where did I say that?

I'm not the one suggesting this horse has a problem - YOU are! And yet, the one and only thing you have refused to even try until now, is giving the horse a break - the easiest thing you could possibly try, to rule out the mental stress possibility.

My point was that posting a couple of pics saying "I think he looks more relaxed here" is entirely meaningless if you're still saying he's unhappy and resisting his work, to the point he needs diet and routine changes, pain relief trials, vets... need I go on. That just isn't standard.





			if arena uk ever email me back, he's dropping down to 2 x adv med next wed(85 and 92 so easy tests as well), and will take it from there. 
will report back after lesson tonight with trainers thoughts 

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GOOD!


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## kerilli (3 August 2012)

Prince33Sp4rkle said:



			really?

so, anyone who has a horse that doesnt enjoy jumping, should go and force them to do it anyway?
		
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No, where did I say that? Very much not. Some horses don't enjoy jumping for all sorts of different reasons. I would NEVER try to force a horse to jump if it didn't enjoy it. They tell you very eloquently if they do! 



Prince33Sp4rkle said:



			you really think that he thinks he's got one over on me so well, that he only feels the need to throw the toys out in the piris?! you really think that makes any kind of sense?
		
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No, and I didn't say that either. Wtf are you on? 


Prince33Sp4rkle said:



			have you read the parts about how he's better since i STOPPED hacking?! or the bit about him getting better and better at home and in the warm up? or the fact that the horse generally prats about a lot less now than he did as a 4/5 yo (when he was hacking and jumping).
		
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Yes. And I also said I can see why you don't try to hack any more if you have to do roadwork.
I then explained why I, personally, persist, because I think it is very beneficial (to their brains and bodies), and what I would do if he were mine. That's all. 



Prince33Sp4rkle said:



			so you really think that means he's decided he can bully me out of doing anything at all?
		
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Erm, no, and I didn't say that either. 



Prince33Sp4rkle said:



			again-OTT reaction. this is ONE problem with ONE movement in ONE environment.

aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah.

now i  really am banging my head on anything and everything!
		
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Christ, over reaction or what?!  If this was the first time this horse had chucked his toys out of the pram I'd agree totally, but it isn't, so I disagree. It is not ONE problem at all, it is the latest in a succession of problems, it's just the piris in that environment that are triggering it at the moment.


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## KatB (3 August 2012)

Kerilli, PS wasn't replying to you in regards to the jumping etc.... read back to other posters....


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## kerilli (3 August 2012)

KatB said:



			Kerilli, PS wasn't replying to you in regards to the jumping etc.... read back to other posters....
		
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Her reply was right after my post, and I did have the temerity to say that I would keep trying with the hacking... oh well. Doesn't matter.


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## LCH611 (3 August 2012)

kerilli said:



			!
While I personally would not give up on hacking because it is SO beneficial, I can see why PS doesn't if there's no alternative to roadwork etc. The safety of horse and rider, and other road users of course, is the most important thing. 
So, I'd take him with a quiet companion (and a walker if possible) somewhere with really quiet hacking, and give it a go, if he were mine. They eventually get over the stupidity and are then fine. Honestly. I have one here who now hacks out alone and is safe and boring (well, by my standards anyway) but last year was an utter nightmare who needed a walker every time. I doubt back then I'd have believed I could ever hack her up the drove on the buckle end while catching up on Facebook!   
Good luck with him PS, he's obviously worth the effort.
		
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I completely agree. I think there are masses of benefits to be derived from hacking - I can see that being pressurised in a strange environment with lots of things to spook at can create a terrible downward spiral of stress, and there is no way I would advocate hacking something stressy on a public road, but I would definitely box up and go somewhere quiet with a rock steady companion - Bruce is sensible isn't he? 
I have honestly never met a horse that doesn't enjoy hacking out with ears pricked taking in the scenery, but perhaps that is just because I expect them to be good, don't overreact to spooking and by default it just becomes a highly enjoyable experience for both. For my baby horses it has been brilliant to just get them used to going forwards in a consistent rhythm and behaving calmly no matter what they encounter. I can see that if he doesn't enjoy doing any more than simple pole work it is counter-productive to insist that he does however.

Edited to add that I also agree with Kerilli that hacking is good for both brains & bodies


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## LCH611 (3 August 2012)

Prince33Sp4rkle said:



			really?

have you read the parts about how he's better since i STOPPED hacking?! or the bit about him getting better and better at home and in the warm up? or the fact that the horse generally prats about a lot less now than he did as a 4/5 yo (when he was hacking and jumping).
		
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Or maybe he prats about less now because he is more mature - mentally & physically?


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## MillionDollar (3 August 2012)

PS please put up those pics of him vertical with you when you were hacking


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## Saratoga (3 August 2012)

I believe any horse can be taught to hack safely eventually, but it just depends if you personally think its worth it. If you don't then I don't think he will be majorly missing out on anything, esp as he gets ridden in the field and turned out with other horses?


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## Leg_end (3 August 2012)

MillionDollar said:



			PS please put up those pics of him vertical with you when you were hacking 

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She could also post the pics of her out hacking, smiling and relaxed looking back at the camera... But its not an accurate account according to PS as he clearly doesn't rear all the time hacking, and nor does PS look so relaxed!


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## KatB (3 August 2012)

Completely agree Saratoga. There are lots of horses out there who don't hack and are fine for it. I hack, as I'm lucky to have fantastic hacking and my horse loves it, but if they don't, its not an issue as long as they're getting variety imho. I've known v.good event horses who didn't hack, didn't effect them as they did the job they were required to do. I don't see the point of making a song and dance about making a horse do something it can live perfectly well without!


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (3 August 2012)

K-post not aimed at you! think we posted at same time!!!! 

saratoga-thank you. yes he goes out in company and im going to up the poddling round the field work.

to the others-you are really advocating putting myself in a potentially dangerous situation just so i can tell you all i tried?! 
its all very well saying box to off road hacking but the second his feet touch grass he's on 2 legs and its absolutely exhausting, mentally and physically to try and stay on board, and keep him calm, and keep him out of harms way. He's no better in hand and i just dont have access to flat, enclosed hacking, so that if i DO come off, he cant get on the road etc.

not sure what you are getting at leg_end. I wont say anything as silly as "come and have a go yourself" because in reality id never let it happen, but if he COULD hack, dont you think i would? why would i lie so that i didnt have to, when in reality no one on HHO knows if i do, dont, can, cant etc.......doesnt make sense. not sure what you are trying to get at, but take it from me, the horse is not easy, and not really safe to hack and i value my pelvis as it is, in one bit, too much to keep trying.
of course there have been ok hacks, but the unpredictability, 0-60 reaction, and lack of self preservation far outweigh the possibility he might be good one day dont you think?


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## MillionDollar (3 August 2012)

It certainly isn't an issue if you don't hack. My horse hasn't hacked since November after he went to RVC London and both the top vets told me not to hack again (due to his flat feet). He's schooled 4 times per week, plus a lunging session, plus a fun session in the arena and he is happy as larry. Yes it's lovely if they can hack out twice per week on a long rein all relaxed but there are some horses that just won't, they're all individuals.


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## TarrSteps (3 August 2012)

You are hacking obsessed in this country!


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## LCH611 (3 August 2012)

TarrSteps said:



			You are hacking obsessed in this country!
		
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that's what makes us so good at riding XC & hunting. Tried to use a smilie to no avail....D'oh!


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## kerilli (3 August 2012)

I guess we are... but I think it keeps horses sweet mentally. However, I acknowledge that I'm VERY lucky to have safe hacking right outside the gate... rush hour round here is 2 cars an hour! I wouldn't persevere in the wrong environment, definitely not. 
You can do a lot of good training out hacking too, they're naturally forward (mostly!) so you don't have to make the forwardness. But if CS is a total psychopath to hack... fair enough. avoid and survive!


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## KPM (3 August 2012)

TarrSteps said:



			You are hacking obsessed in this country!
		
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Not all of us!


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## Leg_end (3 August 2012)

Prince33Sp4rkle said:



			not sure what you are getting at leg_end. I wont say anything as silly as "come and have a go yourself" because in reality id never let it happen, but if he COULD hack, dont you think i would?
		
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My point was aimed at MD hence why I quoted their post - showing a photo of him rearing is pointless as we all know he can do it and it could just as easily be counteracted with a photo of him being totally sane - its a snap shot and not a true picture. If you read my post correctly you would see I said he clearly doesn't rear all the time and you dont look so relaxed all the time.. I wasn't having a go!

You couldn't pay me enough to get on CS, I value my neck and don't think I'm gods gift to equestrianism 



Prince33Sp4rkle said:



			why would i lie so that i didnt have to, when in reality no one on HHO knows if i do, dont, can, cant etc.......doesnt make sense.
		
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I'm in no way suggesting that you have lied, if I thought that I'd call you on it. I don't really care if you hack or not!



Prince33Sp4rkle said:



			not sure what you are trying to get at, but take it from me, the horse is not easy, and not really safe to hack and i value my pelvis as it is, in one bit, too much to keep trying.
of course there have been ok hacks, but the unpredictability, 0-60 reaction, and lack of self preservation far outweigh the possibility he might be good one day dont you think?
		
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I agree with you, if you actually read my previous posts I have agreed that the horse is clearly difficult, he's never going to be a novice ride and I wouldn't want to get on him.

I haven't commented on the hack/don't hack as I don't really care! TBH I agree that your neck is far more valuable then pressing the point and if its not something you really want to do and the horse doesn't enjoy it then whats the point?


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## SpottedCat (3 August 2012)

In actual fact I don't disagree re the hacking, despite what it may seem  I have one who's sharp to hack and it's not much fun. I wasn't saying I thought you should hack, I was putting the idea out there that he's discovered a way of getting you to back off when work is a bit harder than he'd like (mentally or physically) and he's using it against you in the competition arena. I think if that is the issue (him finding them difficult), unless you either back off until he's strong enough not to find them hard, the other solution is to ride through all the other 'I don't want to' manifestations of the behaviour. 

I know I'd pick the backing off the pressure - I like my life!! FWIW I find hacking interminably dull and only do it for fitness and to keep my chap sweet. If I could get away without it I would!


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## toomanyhorses26 (3 August 2012)

Im not sure it comes down to whether you hack or not hack - your horse has the potential to be pretty damn amazing and a real example to what a TB can acheive but he is saying that something isnt right and if you are happy that it isnt feed or pain related then I think its a signal for some time out. He (and you) have travelled some serious distance over the last 3/4 years and perhaps you could both do with a breather. This is only my opinion but I was reading some of your older posts earlier and the tone of your posts have changed so much - you used to write about how pleased you were with him and how quick he was learning and his apitude for work - the more recent posts have been more about how he has done this or he isnt quite behaving. The sheer volume of replies on this post I think shows that people care about you and your horse


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (3 August 2012)

Leg_end-sorry, obv read it totally wrong 

toomanyhorses- dont get me wrong, i love the horse to bits, he makes me laugh and smile even when he's being a nob, and the good bits far outweigh the bad bits. I know he's no valegro but he's the most talented horse ive had the pleasure to sit on  and i thank my lucky stars (pardon the pun) every time i ride him.
i really do try and be *warts an all* on HHO, to capture the good and bad bits. Ive really come to appreciate the depth of knowledge and to take advantage of it, hence the increased Q's perhaps?
ive also had some REALLY nasty pm's accusing me of boasting, being spoilt etc etc when ive posted lesson or show reports previously, so maybe im too keen to show im having to work flipping hard for it lol.


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## kit279 (3 August 2012)

Sounds like his personality to be completely frank.  I know you've tweaked his management a lot and you might find it helps a bit her and there but in the end, that's who he is as a 'person' - sharp and occasionally explosive.

All I'd say is to give it time.  Yes, it's frustrating but look at Laura B and Alf - he was very sharp and strong and given time and consistency (the latter of which you undoubtably give CS), they are now sufficiently comfortable with each other and the routine of competition to be able to hold it together.  Alf will never lose that sharpness and probably CS won't but given a few more years, you may find (as you already have) that the explosions will get less frequent and eventually and hopefully stop.


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## Goldenstar (3 August 2012)

Prince33Sp4rkle said:



			Leg_end-sorry, obv read it totally wrong 

toomanyhorses- dont get me wrong, i love the horse to bits, he makes me laugh and smile even when he's being a nob, and the good bits far outweigh the bad bits. I know he's no valegro but he's the most talented horse ive had the pleasure to sit on  and i thank my lucky stars (pardon the pun) every time i ride him.
i really do try and be *warts an all* on HHO, to capture the good and bad bits. Ive really come to appreciate the depth of knowledge and to take advantage of it, hence the increased Q's perhaps?
ive also had some REALLY nasty pm's accusing me of boasting, being spoilt etc etc when ive posted lesson or show reports previously, so maybe im too keen to show im having to work flipping hard for it lol.
		
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nasty Pm's are out of order I dont know what people are thinking when they do that.
PS I hope you are getting something out of this .


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## toomanyhorses26 (3 August 2012)

oh I am in no doubt that you love this horse - who wouldnt to be honest and the fact that you are asking opinions,investigating different ideas etc shows this but (i am nowhere near the level of you and my tb is nowhere near the level that CS is ) its very easy to get 'bogged down' sometimes ( i have made a really poor attempt at explaining this ) - i guess what I am trying to say is have some fun with him even if that is in the school - i jump mine as his break from flatwork - he adores to jump and if i was braver we would go higher/wider/compete at it. He finds flatwork deathly boring and is a toad at simple things - music helps him gets a bit of spring in his step and probably brightens me up a bit.


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## daffy44 (3 August 2012)

Well, what a lot of responses!  It sounds like you are always trying to do the very best for your horse which is fantastic.  Personally, if your horse is dangerous to hack - dont!  I also think he sounds as if your work/feed/management routine suits the horse well.  I would say that 7 is very young for psg even with a horse that is purpose bred for the job with a rider that has produced many horses to the level.  I also think the jump from advanced medium to psg is a very big one, and not to be underestimated, so i would agree with those that have just said that your horse just needs a little more time to gain strength and confidence, both physically and mentally.  I would also add, look to your walk pirouettes, it is the same movement after all, albeit in a different pace, so use your walk pirouettes to perfect the positioning etc, that way you can work on correctness without hopefully upping the horses stress levels.  But i think time and patience are the most important things.


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## SpottedCat (3 August 2012)

That's bizarre and uncalled for re the PMs, though I can well believe it, this place attracts some very odd folk!


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## georgiegirl (3 August 2012)

Ignore the pm's - people can be incredibly jealous!!

I have no experience at all at riding at this kind of level but think you are right to drop him down a level at shows a few times even just to up both yours and his confidence and enjoyment of competing.

Did you ever get him scoped to confirm the diagnosis of ulcers? (Sorry if you have and I've missed this bit of information!)


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (3 August 2012)

the most bizarre (in am amusing way) was the one berating me for using a sheepskin poll pad as apparently this demonstrates that i use my horse as a fashion accessory, and am so spoilt i expect everything to fall in to place around me..............


nothing to do with padding out his bridle, and him liking it  :mindboggles:

that reminds me-will get trainer to look at walk piris in lesson later, thank you, had forgotten!!!!!


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## KatB (3 August 2012)

Name and shame, there are some sad cases on here!


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (3 August 2012)

sadly deleted them by now, no one  whose username i recognise though.


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## SpottedCat (3 August 2012)

Prince33Sp4rkle said:



			sadly deleted them by now, no one  whose username i recognise though.
		
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Oh, I bet you'd have recognised their normal username!


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## JGC (3 August 2012)

daffy44 said:



			Well, what a lot of responses!  It sounds like you are always trying to do the very best for your horse which is fantastic.  Personally, if your horse is dangerous to hack - dont!  I also think he sounds as if your work/feed/management routine suits the horse well.  I would say that 7 is very young for psg even with a horse that is purpose bred for the job with a rider that has produced many horses to the level.  I also think the jump from advanced medium to psg is a very big one, and not to be underestimated, so i would agree with those that have just said that your horse just needs a little more time to gain strength and confidence, both physically and mentally.  I would also add, look to your walk pirouettes, it is the same movement after all, albeit in a different pace, so use your walk pirouettes to perfect the positioning etc, that way you can work on correctness without hopefully upping the horses stress levels.  But i think time and patience are the most important things.
		
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Ooh, great tip about the walk pirouettes, will be trying me some of that!

PS, I think I fall into the same horse-owner category as you - I obsess constantly over the slightest thing that happens to mine, constantly analysing and trying to make things better. I used to talk about my older mare with the people who were training my youngster and I apparently managed to give them the impression that she was a bad-ass kung fu ninja chestnut mare!!! When actually, she's a lovely, gentle mare that needs careful management 99 per cent - and only 1 per cent of the time is she a little too keen on her own opinion! But who my beginner hubby learned to canter and jump on  Because I was constantly worrying about how to fix the small things that were wrong and have a long list of things that she has to eat/do/not do for her to be 100 per cent, they hadn't understood how great things were the rest of the time.

All that to say that I think that because you are asking for advice when things go wrong, not (funnily enough) when things go right, I think some people may have got a slightly distorted idea of the situation.

I hope you've got some useful advice from the thread.


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## georgiegirl (3 August 2012)

So did you get him scoped or not?

I would 100% get him scoped to actually confirm ulcer issues before you possibly continue barking up the wrong tree.

If they are confirmed they can be treated and if there's none there then instead of using time money, stress and not to mention giving him drugs he doesn't need!

In the grand scheme of things getting a quick scope done costs pittance compared to all the supps and different kinds of feed your using?


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## georgiegirl (3 August 2012)

Sorry that last post didn't make sense!

Was meant to say that if you confirmed diagnosis then great but if it was negative for ulcers then you could then start to search other avenues as well as saving yourself a fortune using supps and feeds he might not need!


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## Halfstep (3 August 2012)

I think there is an awful lot of over analysing going on here. Which is the curse of the one or two horse owner rider. Imagine if Star was just one of the x number of horses you had to ride per day, or to drive to a show to compete for an owner. What would you suggest then? Sometimes one gets so caught up in the minutiae that one neglects to see the easy answer. The horse has a job to do. Our job is to make it as easy as possible for him to do his. I don't understand the mentality that seems to assume that hacking out will cure all ills, why force an anxious horse into something that increases his anxiety? The issue is with the horses actual job, which is being a dressage horse. I've made my suggestions already. Would add doing in hand work and gymnastic pole work to increase strength and coordination. 
Also op: how do you ride the working piris? From travers or shoulder in? Is the problem in the collection do you think or in the turning? Can you ride a stride of pirouette canter at a given point with a straight neck while giving the reins? Sorry if this is all obvious...


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## Goldenstar (3 August 2012)

Prince33Sp4rkle said:



			the most bizarre (in am amusing way) was the one berating me for using a sheepskin poll pad as apparently this demonstrates that i use my horse as a fashion accessory, and am so spoilt i expect everything to fall in to place around me..............


nothing to do with padding out his bridle, and him liking it  :mindboggles:

that reminds me-will get trainer to look at walk piris in lesson later, thank you, had forgotten!!!!!
		
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God I hope they never get a look at my matchy matchy , toney toney , mixy matchy collection they'll blow a fuse.


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## Llanali (3 August 2012)

Halfstep said:



			I think there is an awful lot of over analysing going on here. Which is the curse of the one or two horse owner rider. Imagine if Star was just one of the x number of horses you had to ride per day, or to drive to a show to compete for an owner. What would you suggest then? Sometimes one gets so caught up in the minutiae that one neglects to see the easy answer.
		
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I think this is a very valid point. I am not knowledgable in the sphere of dressage at this level, but I admire your passion and absolute dedication to Star's management; it is to be commended.

I wouldn't know whether he needs a break/a massage/counselling/ a spliff or whatever, but I have to say I think there has been a very balanced debate in this thread which I have learnt a lot from.


I do honestly think though that if this happened to one of a string it would be very different. It also appears to be different in discipline- I can think of a rider on here whose horse had a strop before Sjing during an event, and she was commended for cracking down and waiting him out. On the same point, when one of the 4* riders horses wouldn't leave the start box- Tankers town??? I forget- everyone said what a shame, no one cried then that he was pushed to far or his management was wrong. SJ horses regularly need leading into the ring, but it is quite accepted.


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## MadisonBelle (3 August 2012)

Halfstep said:



			I think there is an awful lot of over analysing going on here. Which is the curse of the one or two horse owner rider. Imagine if Star was just one of the x number of horses you had to ride per day, or to drive to a show to compete for an owner. What would you suggest then? Sometimes one gets so caught up in the minutiae that one neglects to see the easy answer.
		
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Absolutely agree being a one horse owner myself!!!

Never ridden at this level and don't think I ever will but in the main this has been a great thread.

Good luck PS, I'm sure you'll figure it out.


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## oldvic (3 August 2012)

I haven't read through to see what others have said but just glanced at some bits. Hacking is fine if the horse enjoys it but it will achieve nothing if it makes the horse tense. Some horses take comfort from what they know and hacking takes them out of their comfort zone. It is quite possible to keep a horse sweet without taking to the countryside.
Some horses are better just doing 1 test particularly when they get up the levels. At PSG there is a greater physical effort required so maybe uou should save the energy that you are using ing the 1st test.


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (3 August 2012)

checking in to report on lesson:

was really really good, really feel i got a ton out of it.

started off by talking through our major weak areas, stuff i feel i need to work on etc which is obviously his being in front of my seat/leg. explained that you cant just use the leg off, kick, go, that i would use with any other horse as it falls on deaf ears and he gets resentful and more and more irritable.
we went off and warmed up and straight away she said she wouldnt give him a chance to settle in to his plink-plink-plink *comfort* trot, she would do a lot of walk so he was well warmed up,and then straight away in trot do lots of on and back, but coming almost to half steps on a soft contact, then forward, then half steps, then forward, collecting a little through every corner then forward along short side so he gets used to accelerating out the corner.
this is very different to how i usually warm up-which is to give him time to settle in his own rhythm and gradually ask a bit more with each gear change, but it did work, and we only had one minor explosion, then he accepted it very well and felt much sharper 

pretty much same thing in canter.

she had me gently tapping/tickling with a whip AS i applied the leg, so he gets used to giving a sharp reaction straight away to the leg, and its less of an issue that they become crafy to having to drop the whip, as they are SO used to leg=go (she trains with carl, and i love how electric but soft his horses are, so this makes total sense for me anyway).

picked him up in the trot and worked on keeping him poll high, my hands closer together and me sitting on my bum more. she really got on at me all the time about riding him UP, and SHARP and using EVERY corner and insisted we ride every stride for a 10 and not just tootle in to things. I really needed that, really needed that kick up the arse.

did LY and SI to medium, thinking quick quick on the hind leg through the entire movement.
in the half pass,think increased bend last few strides, dont let him subtely straighten out and lose the rib softness.

she loved his changes in the canter, and his medium canter 

worked the piris a fair bit, riding a 10m circle without letting him over collect, keeping him sharp and forward then bringing the hip over and using the whip not as punishment but to help keep the rhythm. he is stiffer to the left so she sent me away with homework to do on suppling him to that side a bit more.

said to ride them big (like i am doing) at home, working piris concentrating on being in control of every step and every inch of bend, them let HIM take them a bit tighter in the ring, so we arent arguing about size-this is a bit of a *meet him in the middle* movement, and again, makes sense to me and will probably stop him ejecting the toys.

in ref to shows, she agreed with the idea of getting my last few WQ points at adv med, then doing the PSG only at shows, she said she never does more than 1 class per day above adv med, and would also not do much piri work in the warm up.
so, he's already dropped to 2 x adv med next wed, and will then have a few weeks break whilst fig wig goes to the area festivals, and then hopefully we can pick up the PSG again on its own.

so thanks HHO for those suggestions, you were right!!!! 

FWIW she felt he wasnt overly pushed, and in fact said he really needs to pull his socks up a bit and man up, i cant baby him round in a wishy washy trot and wait for him to make the 1st move. I have to ask and he has to give, a little bit more 60/40 in my favour.
she also said was i going to do an inter I this year and had he started the 1's.
the answer is no to both, and neither will happen this year, but it was interesting that she didnt feel that would be unusual or irresponsible.
she fully expected him to be able to do pi/pa and at least some 2's based on his age,and whilst i have NO intention of pushing harder or faster, it was interesting to get insight in to where the pros expect them to be.

she didnt feel i was bonkers to aim for GP. agreed that clearly we wont give the selectors any headaches, but that if i ride for every mark and dont plink round like a lemon, we should do ok :grin:

loads and loads to work on and im shattered but i loved every second and will be booking another in a couple of weeks, as soon as my diary allows really 

halfstep-from SI, and yes to piri canter giving the reins 

prob i would say is the collection, not the turning.

he starts the equijewel tonight, and ill be interested to see how that works out. he felt really good and forward again tonight so i really dont think its feed or ulcer related, he accepted everything really sweetly, which he never would have done prior to the omeprazole.

he had his ears pricked throughout and she said he looked very content and relaxed, bit too dopey really, but a nice partnership and pleasing to the eye. we just need to up the ooomph to turn a nice 7 in to a wow 8.

phew, sleepy PS and CS!


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## BeckyC (4 August 2012)

Sounds a very productive lesson and very interesting about not letting him settle into a plink plink trot but keep him changing the trot to keep him thinking.  I may well borrow this to see if this works with my TB!  Sounds like you've got a very sensible plan of action to go forward with too so good luck


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## Amymay (4 August 2012)

Sounds like a really positive lesson. Thanks for the update.


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## LCH611 (4 August 2012)

[QUOTE I don't understand the mentality that seems to assume that hacking out will cure all ills, why force an anxious horse into something that increases his anxiety? ..[/QUOTE]

Not saying that hacking out will cure all ills, it was offered up as a suggestion to see if a break from schooling/competing would sweeten him up & enable him to come back to work with a better attitude. OP has explained that it is not an option.

In the meantime OP has come back to say that she has had a v productive lesson so all is good.


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## Perfect_Pirouette (4 August 2012)

Prince33Sp4rkle said:



			checking in to report on lesson:

was really really good, really feel i got a ton out of it.

started off by talking through our major weak areas, stuff i feel i need to work on etc which is obviously his being in front of my seat/leg. explained that you cant just use the leg off, kick, go, that i would use with any other horse as it falls on deaf ears and he gets resentful and more and more irritable.
we went off and warmed up and straight away she said she wouldnt give him a chance to settle in to his plink-plink-plink *comfort* trot, she would do a lot of walk so he was well warmed up,and then straight away in trot do lots of on and back, but coming almost to half steps on a soft contact, then forward, then half steps, then forward, collecting a little through every corner then forward along short side so he gets used to accelerating out the corner.
this is very different to how i usually warm up-which is to give him time to settle in his own rhythm and gradually ask a bit more with each gear change, but it did work, and we only had one minor explosion, then he accepted it very well and felt much sharper 

pretty much same thing in canter.

she had me gently tapping/tickling with a whip AS i applied the leg, so he gets used to giving a sharp reaction straight away to the leg, and its less of an issue that they become crafy to having to drop the whip, as they are SO used to leg=go (she trains with carl, and i love how electric but soft his horses are, so this makes total sense for me anyway).

picked him up in the trot and worked on keeping him poll high, my hands closer together and me sitting on my bum more. she really got on at me all the time about riding him UP, and SHARP and using EVERY corner and insisted we ride every stride for a 10 and not just tootle in to things. I really needed that, really needed that kick up the arse.

did LY and SI to medium, thinking quick quick on the hind leg through the entire movement.
in the half pass,think increased bend last few strides, dont let him subtely straighten out and lose the rib softness.

she loved his changes in the canter, and his medium canter 

worked the piris a fair bit, riding a 10m circle without letting him over collect, keeping him sharp and forward then bringing the hip over and using the whip not as punishment but to help keep the rhythm. he is stiffer to the left so she sent me away with homework to do on suppling him to that side a bit more.

said to ride them big (like i am doing) at home, working piris concentrating on being in control of every step and every inch of bend, them let HIM take them a bit tighter in the ring, so we arent arguing about size-this is a bit of a *meet him in the middle* movement, and again, makes sense to me and will probably stop him ejecting the toys.

in ref to shows, she agreed with the idea of getting my last few WQ points at adv med, then doing the PSG only at shows, she said she never does more than 1 class per day above adv med, and would also not do much piri work in the warm up.
so, he's already dropped to 2 x adv med next wed, and will then have a few weeks break whilst fig wig goes to the area festivals, and then hopefully we can pick up the PSG again on its own.

so thanks HHO for those suggestions, you were right!!!! 

FWIW she felt he wasnt overly pushed, and in fact said he really needs to pull his socks up a bit and man up, i cant baby him round in a wishy washy trot and wait for him to make the 1st move. I have to ask and he has to give, a little bit more 60/40 in my favour.
she also said was i going to do an inter I this year and had he started the 1's.
the answer is no to both, and neither will happen this year, but it was interesting that she didnt feel that would be unusual or irresponsible.
she fully expected him to be able to do pi/pa and at least some 2's based on his age,and whilst i have NO intention of pushing harder or faster, it was interesting to get insight in to where the pros expect them to be.

she didnt feel i was bonkers to aim for GP. agreed that clearly we wont give the selectors any headaches, but that if i ride for every mark and dont plink round like a lemon, we should do ok :grin:

loads and loads to work on and im shattered but i loved every second and will be booking another in a couple of weeks, as soon as my diary allows really 

halfstep-from SI, and yes to piri canter giving the reins 

prob i would say is the collection, not the turning.

he starts the equijewel tonight, and ill be interested to see how that works out. he felt really good and forward again tonight so i really dont think its feed or ulcer related, he accepted everything really sweetly, which he never would have done prior to the omeprazole.

he had his ears pricked throughout and she said he looked very content and relaxed, bit too dopey really, but a nice partnership and pleasing to the eye. we just need to up the ooomph to turn a nice 7 in to a wow 8.

phew, sleepy PS and CS!
		
Click to expand...

What a lovely, positive report. Some of the things she got you doing (obviously just the simpler lateral work ) is how my instructor gets me to do it so I am glad you agree with it lol!

It's so good to have a fresh pair of eyes and she sounds positive about you both so that's good.

I have to say, think she's right re the only doing one test. I loathe going to comps and only doing one test, it's all over far too soon and so much faffing for what, 5 mins? BUT, at the level you're at where the work is much more physically and mentally challenging, I think it'd probs be best.

Onwards and upwards hopefully!


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## KatB (4 August 2012)

Fantastic report, pleased it went well! Would you mind letting me know who it was you went for a lesson with please?


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## TPO (4 August 2012)

Glad that the lesson went so well and that you now have a plan to go forward with.

Looking forward to the next update


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## Festive_Felicitations (4 August 2012)

PS what a fantastic lesson report! Glad you felt you got a lot out of it and you've inspired me to find a DR instructor round here and have a few lessons myself!


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (4 August 2012)

thank you, am really really pleased and feel ive got something to get my teeth in to now 

kat-will pm you.


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## KatB (4 August 2012)

Thank you, got it, just can't reply to it on my phone!


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## MillionDollar (4 August 2012)

Sounds fab!  Fingers crossed dropping to one PSG test works  By the sounds of it he was just tired by doing an Adv Medium first and was basically like sod off I'm tired, I am NOT doing piris  he he.


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## MrsMozart (4 August 2012)

Excellent report 

Fingers crossed you're on the right track for some happy comps 


We're no-where near your level, but have a new instructor and she insists that even the walk into the school is alive and forward and that we look like we mean business. Seems to be, with a lot of horses and riders, the way to go . Does make for a tiring lesson until one is used to it though


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## Leg_end (5 August 2012)

Glad you had a great session, sounds like she's given you plenty to work with.


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