# ok really stupid question r.e shoes vs barefoot



## Brambridge04 (24 May 2011)

Typical chat in pub and mentioned to horsey friend mare getting full set on. Currently barefoot. Non horsey OH said he'd googled it out of interest and as her feet cant contract will her legs ache??? Got me thinking.....


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## FairyLights (24 May 2011)

Good question!


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## *hic* (24 May 2011)

I have no idea what you mean by "her feet can't contract". Shoes are nailed to dead protein. Dead protein is not noted for changing shape by itself. The part of the foot that is working and contracting is the frog and you are not going to have shoes nailed to that.

I currently only have one shod horse out of my six.


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## FairyLights (24 May 2011)

re contract and expand. Shoes are not nailed on near the heels. This allows for expansion and contraction. The barefoot brigade evangalisise about barefeet expanding ,but shod hooves do too.


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## Ladylina83 (24 May 2011)

Well something causes this Jemima ! 







(this horse has one shoe on - can you guess which leg ?? )


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## Brambridge04 (24 May 2011)

I thought so but it got me thinking so i googled n youtube and thoroughly confused myself. 

Originally considered fronts but full set going on in couple of days x


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## Zuzan (24 May 2011)

Hooves should expand on impact..   metal shoes will prevent this to a greater degree.  The hoof should touch down slightly heel first..  the open end of effectively a c spring.  

Hooves are far more complex than simply dead protein


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## ThePony (24 May 2011)

Shoes are supposed to allow the digital cushion to expand and contract as the foot hits the ground due to (as pointed out about) the placement of the nails not preventing this. That is the theory anyway, but something causes those contracted heels that slowly start to spread and repair themselves when out of shoes? I appreciate that the hoof still 'ought' to be able to contract just the same in shoes as out (and obv then the blood flow should not be compromised) as the moving area of the hoof isn't blocked by the placement of the nails, but I can't say that my experience of what I have seen in my own mares in and out of shoes matches with this.


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## Zuzan (24 May 2011)

Horsesforever1 said:



			re contract and expand. Shoes are not nailed on near the heels. This allows for expansion and contraction. The barefoot brigade evangalisise about barefeet expanding ,but shod hooves do too.
		
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However many shod hooves have contracted heels..  Heels typically decontract when un shod and correctly trimmed.


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## Angua2 (24 May 2011)

Zuzan said:



			However many shod hooves have contracted heels..  Heels typically decontract when un shod and correctly trimmed.
		
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which is exactly what I am seeing after taking my horses back shoes off, even after a short space of time (3 weeks).


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## AndySpooner (24 May 2011)

Why is it non horsey people always 'get' things like barefoot, as it makes so much sense, whilst horsey people just don't get it.


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## MagicMelon (24 May 2011)

Ladylina83 said:



			Well something causes this Jemima ! 







(this horse has one shoe on - can you guess which leg ?? )
		
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Wow, what an amazing pic!  I think the main issue is the lack of frog contact with the ground when shoes are on.  Contact with the frog helps pump blood round the leg doesn't it?


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## Flame_ (24 May 2011)

AndySpooner said:



			Why is it non horsey people always 'get' things like barefoot, as it makes so much sense, whilst horsey people just don't get it.
		
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Because you can tell non horsey people any horsey bollox you like and as they won't know any different, they'll believe you? 

I'm not against some horses working unshod btw.


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## fibelle (24 May 2011)

I've never been able to understand why people put shoes on horses who don't actually need them - mine both hack, hunt & compete with bare feet... Mostly because a good trim is about a third of the price of a set of shoes...


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## FairyLights (24 May 2011)

If a horse can cope with its work load without shoes then thats great. If it cant it needs shoes.Simples! I have had horses that I have had shod and horses that I havent and sometimes the shod horses have been shoeless as their work load decreased or they just went on grass. What I cant stand is the barefoot brigade who have a  holier than thou attitude.


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## ThePony (24 May 2011)

Our horses are now in harder work than when they were shod, and tbh they could take a hell of alot more as my arse is wearing faster than their horn does!!

I think some barefoot people come across abit evangelical - it is often because a much loved horse has been looking at pts as its next option due to long term lameness, then a wonderous and magical thing like barefoot comes along. A year down the line the death row horse is competing and hacking like never before. That sort of thing can make a person a bit thrilled with a different way of working and approaching a lameness problem!!


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## Damnation (24 May 2011)

AndySpooner said:



			Why is it non horsey people always 'get' things like barefoot, as it makes so much sense, whilst horsey people just don't get it.
		
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You know that is so true!!
Although I don't mind whether a horse is shod or not as long as it suits the horse. I just don't know alot about feet or understand it! 

I'm off to ring my farrier..


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## snopuma (24 May 2011)

Horses with shoes, every step is hard surface even in thick mud, imagine going everyway in flats with no flexibility, how your legs would ache!


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## Brambridge04 (24 May 2011)

She is a 5 year old forester, been barefoot all her life BUT now her road work, and hacking is increasing (some gravelly tracks leading to gallops) she is so footy and slow i think it is best.

i also had a flat footed Welsh c who needed shoes.


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## BlueCakes (24 May 2011)

I would go barefoot if it was possible, but I also wouldnt worry too much about shoes aslong as they are shod correctly. Bad shoeing and bad trimming are just as awful as each other. 

Mine has shoes front, because his feet break too easilly, and barefoot behind because those are better. 
His feet are generally good and he has been totally barefoot, but I thought it the best for him to have fronts on. x


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## Brambridge04 (24 May 2011)

Ive tried bare and sadly the roads and hacking we have cause her to be so footy and slow. I gave it a good few months. X


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## cptrayes (24 May 2011)

Brambridge04 said:



			She is a 5 year old forester, been barefoot all her life BUT now her road work, and hacking is increasing (some gravelly tracks leading to gallops) she is so footy and slow i think it is best.

i also had a flat footed Welsh c who needed shoes.
		
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Your flat footed Welsh cob and your currently footie New Forest almost certainly need a low sugar, and particularly a low grass diet, and not shoes. They probably only need shoes if you cannot give them the low sugar, low grass lifestyle, and if you choose a different lifestyle for them, then that is your prerogative to do so. But is does not mean that your horses cannot cope barefoot , it simply means that they cannot cope with the lifestyle that you choose/have to give them without shoes.

You also need to beware. You have a footie horse, which is the very first sign of laminitis. If you shoe her and remove the footiness, as shoes will do very well in the early stages, you may miss signs of her having problems coping with the grass and end up with a full blown laminitic "suddenly" one day.

In addition, laminitis is a gut issue, not a foot issue. The foot is a symptom, the cause is bugs in the gut getting into the bloodstream. Many of us with barefoot horses notice our horses becoming itchy, grumpy or lazy before they go footie. So you can mask the foot symptoms but you will still have an unhealthy horse who is itchy, grumpy or lazy.

Over to you, anti-barefoot-brigade brigade


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## Brambridge04 (24 May 2011)

She is grass kept with minimal feed of alfa a and fibre nuts and i am very sugar aware. She is fine on grass just gravel and concrete. X


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## Hippona (24 May 2011)

Horsesforever1 said:



			If a horse can cope with its work load without shoes then thats great. If it cant it needs shoes.Simples! I have had horses that I have had shod and horses that I havent and sometimes the shod horses have been shoeless as their work load decreased or they just went on grass. What I cant stand is the barefoot brigade who have a  holier than thou attitude.
		
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^^^^ This!

I have 3 horses.....all were shod at one point- now non are shod. They didn't need shoes- I hack, school, jump and show without shoes. However- if one of them needed shoes...front/ full set- then thats what I would do.

And its 1/3 of the price too

PS.....my horses are unshod- not barefoot


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## cptrayes (24 May 2011)

Brambridge she is footie almost certainly because she is eating too much grass. Try a test - take her off grass completely for a week and see if she is still footie on concrete then. All my horses would be footie on concrete if I did not keep them in during daylight hours when the grass sugars are highest. One of them is very sensitive and I am also having to muzzle him overnight.

I'm sorry, but if you wanted to keep your horse unshod, you are not "sugar aware" enough. If you cannot or will not restrict her grass access then you will need shoes.


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## cptrayes (24 May 2011)

poppymoo said:



			PS.....my horses are unshod- not barefoot

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My horses are barefoot. Any old horse can be ushod, only a barefoot horse can do what any shod horse can do, but without shoes on 

"put some shoes on it, I ain't ridin' no barefoot horse!" was in the original True Grit over 40 years ago. It's not a new faddish expression like people think it is. And the reason she wanted shoes on it was because she was about to ride it non-stop for days at a time when it had never worked in its life before, so its feet would not have stood the work. Properly conditioned, she'd never have needed shoes on a mustang.


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## Angua2 (24 May 2011)

cptrayes said:



			Your flat footed Welsh cob and your currently footie New Forest almost certainly need a low sugar, and particularly a low grass diet, and not shoes. They probably only need shoes if you cannot give them the low sugar, low grass lifestyle, and if you choose a different lifestyle for them, then that is your prerogative to do so. But is does not mean that your horses cannot cope barefoot , it simply means that they cannot cope with the lifestyle that you choose/have to give them without shoes.

You also need to beware. You have a footie horse, which is the very first sign of laminitis. If you shoe her and remove the footiness, as shoes will do very well in the early stages, you may miss signs of her having problems coping with the grass and end up with a full blown laminitic "suddenly" one day.

In addition, laminitis is a gut issue, not a foot issue. The foot is a symptom, the cause is bugs in the gut getting into the bloodstream. Many of us with barefoot horses notice our horses becoming itchy, grumpy or lazy before they go footie. So you can mask the foot symptoms but you will still have an unhealthy horse who is itchy, grumpy or lazy.

Over to you, anti-barefoot-brigade brigade 

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Due to these posts I looked again at my TB's diet, and suddenly realised that there is far more sugar in there than she needs, which possibly explains the minor footyness and lazyness that I am seeing since pulling her hinds 4 weeks ago.  Unfortunatly econmomics dictated diet for these last weeks, but will be weaning her off mollichaff and mollased sugarbeet this weekend so will happily report back.

I will say until she got used to her "new feet" and they hardened up, I was convinced I had done the worst thing possible to her, dispite the fact that economics dictated no other choice.  Now seeing the side effect of healthier backs, I am wondering if we can cope with going totally barefoot??


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## peaceandquiet1 (24 May 2011)

Horsesforever1 said:



			If a horse can cope with its work load without shoes then thats great. If it cant it needs shoes.Simples! I have had horses that I have had shod and horses that I havent and sometimes the shod horses have been shoeless as their work load decreased or they just went on grass. What I cant stand is the barefoot brigade who have a  holier than thou attitude.
		
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Agreed!


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## Zuzan (24 May 2011)

AndySpooner said:



			Why is it non horsey people always 'get' things like barefoot, as it makes so much sense, whilst horsey people just don't get it.
		
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Probably because horsey people are taught by "experts"


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## Brambridge04 (24 May 2011)

I am unable to take her off the grass. I do not have stable access and school is used by others so cant use it for a week to try it


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## amandap (24 May 2011)

ThePony said:



			Our horses are now in harder work than when they were shod, and tbh they could take a hell of alot more as my arse is wearing faster than their horn does!!

I think some barefoot people come across abit evangelical - it is often because a much loved horse has been looking at pts as its next option due to long term lameness, then a wonderous and magical thing like barefoot comes along. A year down the line the death row horse is competing and hacking like never before. That sort of thing can make a person a bit thrilled with a different way of working and approaching a lameness problem!!
		
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LOL love your first paragraph. Also agree with the rest. 

Perhaps the 'old way' of removing shoes for the winter or summer depending is a good compromise? Endurance horses seem to do especially well barefoot, exercise is clearly crucial.


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## cptrayes (24 May 2011)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Horsesforever1 
If a horse can cope with its work load without shoes then thats great. If it cant it needs shoes.Simples! I have had horses that I have had shod and horses that I havent and sometimes the shod horses have been shoeless as their work load decreased or they just went on grass. What I cant stand is the barefoot brigade who have a holier than thou attitude.


Agreed! "
unQuote


But it isn't simples. It can be very difficult to work out why your horse can't work without shoes. If you don't want to do that, fine, but your disrespect for people who have put a huge amount of research into getting their horses able to work without shoes is uncalled for.

In my own case, I could simply have shod my horses. THAT is simples. Instead, I did some research and I found out that my land is heavy in manganese and iron. More research told me that both block the absorption of copper. One more step and I now know that copper is implicated in the regulation of sugar and the regulation of sugar is implicated in foot sensitivity. I now supplement copper and my horses are rock crunching with lovely concave feet all year round when they used to go flat as pancakes every summer.

Now, since the sugar regulation affects the health of the whole horse, it is undeniable that my horses are now healthier than they would be if I had shod them and failed to find out why they were having any trouble.

Just WHAT in this effort by barefooters to do find out how to make their horses high-peformance without shoes is so much to be derided as a fad, can you tell me?

The fact remains that most horses could work shoeless to a high level. It is the owner who either cannot (no criticism there) or will not (your choice, do what you think is right) provide their horse with the perfectly tuned environment for it to do so.


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## cptrayes (24 May 2011)

horsemadmum1 said:



			Agreed!
		
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Brambridge04 said:



			I am unable to take her off the grass. I do not have stable access and school is used by others so cant use it for a week to try it 

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Then your options are to move yards, boot, or shoe. Just choose one and do it


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## cptrayes (24 May 2011)

ps I reckon it will cost you an additional £10 or so a week to shoe your pony. Factor that into your costs of whether you could afford to keep her somewhere where she can go out overnight and be in during the day.


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## Dizzle (24 May 2011)

I have a 7 year old ex-racer, end of 2009 he did this:





Horrible injury, farrier looked at it and said that I wouldn&#8217;t get shoes on in six months as the whole rear quarter of the hoof would like likely to come off and scar.

So start of 2010 I took his shoes off as it was the middle of winter and I thought I&#8217;d pre-empt not being able to shoe in summer.

Anyway, the broken chunk had grown out far earlier than farrier predicted (feet were growing quicker without shoes) and amazingly enough the hoof didn&#8217;t scar either, for a while there was a slight bulge in the scared area but now he has two normal feet.

...and for a horse that was once called &#8216;the worst moving horse i&#8217;ve ever seen, make sure you always ride him with brushing boots&#8217; he&#8217;s suddenly developed some rather nice natural paces  shoes currently aren&#8217;t going back on either!

(NB he injured himself whilst we were trying to teach him leg yield and totf, that's how uncordinated he used to be with his feet!!)


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## Zuzan (24 May 2011)

Dizzle said:



			I have a 7 year old ex-racer, end of 2009 he did this:





Horrible injury, farrier looked at it and said that I wouldnt get shoes on in six months as the whole rear quarter of the hoof would like likely to come off and scar.

So start of 2010 I took his shoes off as it was the middle of winter and I thought Id pre-empt not being able to shoe in summer.

Anyway, the broken chunk had grown out far earlier than farrier predicted (feet were growing quicker without shoes) and amazingly enough the hoof didnt scar either, for a while there was a slight bulge in the scared area but now he has two normal feet.

...and for a horse that was once called the worst moving horse ive ever seen, make sure you always ride him with brushing boots hes suddenly developed some rather nice natural paces  shoes currently arent going back on either!

(NB he injured himself whilst we were trying to teach him leg yield and totf, that's how uncordinated he used to be with his feet!!)
		
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Yes have seen very similar on a French Trotter..  Shoes are responsible for some horrific injuries and I guess some cases where people will PTS


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## Meowy Catkin (24 May 2011)

I'd be interested in people's opinions on this situation.

I have an elderly retired TB who has been unshod/barefoot for many years because once she retired from racing she was a broodmare. I use her as a companion, so all she needs to do is pootle about being lovely. 

She gets very stressed in the yard and cannot cope with being stabled. I have got her to the point where I can bring her to the yard for the farrier or a quick groom/check but she doesn't like it.

When I lived in Hertfordshire (flat paddocks), she coped fine although she would have small chips around the edges of her hooves if we went without rain and the ground was very hard. 

Now she is on the Welsh hills and last summer (very dry) she became footsore on all four feet, with much bigger chips than ever before. I got the farrier to put some shoes on her and she was looking alot better the same day. Once the ground softened in the autumn, I had her shoes taken off again and she coped without any trouble.

This spring I had her shod again when the ground started to get very hard and she'll go back to barefoot/unshod again in the autumn. I think that this works for this particular horse. Her temperament and job dictate that she needs to be turned out all the time. 






^ She's the bay.  This shows the contour of the land.






^ The old flat paddocks.

One point of interest, the old flat paddocks were much richer than the new hilly ones.


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## AndySpooner (24 May 2011)

To quote Zuzan 'horsey people are taught by 'experts', 

The ex, as in past it, and a spurt is a drip under pressure, more like.

I reckon lots of folk are told things by so called experts and it has the effect of closing the mind, for ever in some cases.


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## Brambridge04 (24 May 2011)

I tried keeping her barefoot, but she is not coping well with the roads and woodland hacking, she is very slow and tentative, where as very forward going on grass.

I considered fronts but feel a full set would suit her best.


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## cptrayes (24 May 2011)

Faracat I would check the mineral content of the Welsh land. I can't see any reason why she would be footie on a Welsh hillside if she wasn't on a plains paddock. So maybe there is low copper, high manganese, high iron, and I have also heard that some plants are high in natural steroids that can start footiness too. Chips in the summer may well be due to poor hoof laid down over winter, and being out 24/7 any imbalance in your grazing is going to have a big effect. It's not the slope of the paddock, that's for sure. Mine's just as bad !

Your routine of shoes on/off sounds like a good compromise for a paddock ornament to me, too.  She does "pootling about being lovely" rather well, doesn't she???


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## Meowy Catkin (24 May 2011)

cptrayes said:



			She does "pootling about being lovely" rather well, doesn't she???
		
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She is an absolute darling, very kind and gentle but still loves a good gallop.


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## binkymerlin (24 May 2011)

does this help? i have posted it before. WARNING GRAPHIC

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ayEJacuoJ7I&feature=related


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## MissMistletoe (24 May 2011)

AndySpooner said:



			I reckon lots of folk are told things by so called experts and it has the effect of closing the mind, for ever in some cases.
		
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AndySpooner said:



			#

This is very true ^


Im the only barefooter on my yard, nobody has ever questioned me about the lack of horseshoes on my mares (one of which is worked pretty hard for an oldie 5 days a week for 4-6 miles a time and grows horn like nothing else!!).

I would never preach to people about going BF, and that seems to be part of the fustration against the barefoot brigade. BF to me, is something that needs to be discovered. There is nothing holy about it at all, its just owning horses that when kept correctly and methodically and exercised well, can go without shoes. 

Now about the aching limbs question, well people with abnormally high arched  (supinated)feet will have more concusion during the gait cycle, so are more prone to strains and shin splints than a foot that rolls in (pronates) correctly which will absorb and distribute the force of weight during the gait cycle (think barefoot hoof). Just thinking outside the box a bit.
		
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## Jennyharvey (24 May 2011)

I think that with the amount of hoof boots on the market, shoes really are'nt as nessesary as believed.  New boots are always being designed, and many are suitable for everyday riding, roadwork, and competition.  Many even come with stud holes! 

For me, if my barefoot horse wasnt up to the amount of work i required of him, it would be easy enough to boot up, instead of nailing something to his feet.  Boots also have the ability of absorbing shock, wereas shoes increase concussion, especially on roads.  

So in reality, its not nessesary to shoe our horse's, (except in some rare instances where shoes are a life or death siuation), because there is a boot to cater for the majority of our needs.  Ideally, our horses would live in their ideal invironment, have the ideal diet, and have brilliant feet.  Unfortunately this isnt really a reality, and we sometimes have to provide our horses with something that makes there everyday working life easier.  Some people still rely on shoes, some rely on boots.  Its really a personal choice.


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## Brambridge04 (24 May 2011)

I know theres boots, personally im not keen on them, i know its a bit controverisal but i really think being fully shod will work for her.


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## cptrayes (24 May 2011)

I think you mean it will work for you   It's not controversial in the slightest. Most people do it and most horses have no obvious problem with it.

I would repeat my advice, though, particularly as she is out 24/7 to watch for laminitis like a hawk, because with shoes on you won't see the warning signs until it's too late.


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## Changes (24 May 2011)

Put shoes on. 

Barefoot is not the be all and end all, and only works for a proportion of horses. Don't make your horse suffer to appease the evangelical. 

And @ jennyharvey - studs in boots? Are you serious? Do you even have a clue about the stability needed to have people stud horses in the first place?


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## cptrayes (24 May 2011)

Changes said:



			Put shoes on. 

Barefoot is not the be all and end all, and only works for a proportion of horses. Don't make your horse suffer to appease the evangelical. 

And @ jennyharvey - studs in boots? Are you serious? Do you even have a clue about the stability needed to have people stud horses in the first place?
		
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Nobody on this forum has, to my memory, suggested that anyone's horse should "suffer" to go barefoot. So there is no question of appeasing anyone, evangelical or not. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you did not mean that to be as offensive as it sounded.

And yes, there are boots with studs that can be fitted to stop the boot slipping on grass. What is your problem with that? I for one would prefer the boot to give a little than I would to transmit all that pressure directly through to my horse's joints, which is what happens when you stud shoes. 

No-one is suggesting that you throw a horse at full speed around a BE cross country course in them. It sounds to me like you need to calm down a little !


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## intouch (24 May 2011)

Changes said:



			Do you even have a clue about the stability needed to have people stud horses in the first place?
		
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Whose stability are we talking about here?  ;-)


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## melandjazz (24 May 2011)

My horse used to be shod but us now barefoot. Its quite a long process as can take anything from a  month to a year for a horse to adjust. when they start to get the feeling back in their feet this is when they get 'footie'. It just takes time for there feet to harden up from having shoes on  

the impact on a horses leg with shoes:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fql-xsofeg0

and without:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_6yLEdr2EOM&feature=related


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## jeeve (25 May 2011)

I think it suits to do what you have always done, without thinking about it. There are some brilliant websites and information on the web about barefoot, of course I am not suggesting you should believe everything you read on the internet without question, but it is a good starting point. 

Have a look at the mustang natural trim, these horses travel huge distances over rough ground, self trim and have brilliant feet.

Even barefoot horses can have problems if they are not trimmed correctly, so yes you can have issues with a barefoot horse, there is more to it than just taking the shoes off.


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## amandap (25 May 2011)

Pod77 said:



			I would never preach to people about going BF, and that seems to be part of the fustration against the barefoot brigade. BF to me, is something that needs to be discovered.
		
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This is imo so very, very true. Sadly though the discovery all too often comes when the end of the road is reached or as a last resort. I am hoping this will change over time as we all learn more and people see the benefits for many horses general health.


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## Changes (25 May 2011)

cptrayes said:



			Nobody on this forum has, to my memory, suggested that anyone's horse should "suffer" to go barefoot. So there is no question of appeasing anyone, evangelical or not. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you did not mean that to be as offensive as it sounded.
		
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So the 'transition' to barefoot when the horse is frequently sore is not suffering? 
You have posted about restricted turnout times, making your horses wear muzzles etc - all so that you can 'go barefoot'. Not very natural for the horse - more about you following your ideals. 



cptrayes said:



			And yes, there are boots with studs that can be fitted to stop the boot slipping on grass. What is your problem with that? I for one would prefer the boot to give a little than I would to transmit all that pressure directly through to my horse's joints, which is what happens when you stud shoes.
		
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Because a sliding boot will damage the soft tissue as the horse moves. 



cptrayes said:



			No-one is suggesting that you throw a horse at full speed around a BE cross country course in them. It sounds to me like you need to calm down a little !
		
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So you would shoe and stud correctly for XC then?


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## Toby_Zaphod (25 May 2011)

Wether a horse is shod or barefoot does not matter to me in the slightest, mine however are shod & it suits them. The issue I have is when people decide to go barefoot & phone up a 'barefoot trimmer'. There are few of these who have any recognised training, they have a course over a few days, read a book & then go out hacking at horses feet. Some will go on holiday to America & while away do a quick course & come back 'Qualified'

If you wish to go barefoot then call a registered farrier. He will take the shoes off professionally & will professionally trim the horses feet so they are balanced & level. A farrier will also be able to tell you very often if your horse has a problem. You can't cram years of training into a few days of a course & expect to really know what you are doing.


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## tallyho! (25 May 2011)

Toby_Zaphod said:



			Wether a horse is shod or barefoot does not matter to me in the slightest, mine however are shod & it suits them. The issue I have is when people decide to go barefoot & phone up a 'barefoot trimmer'. There are few of these who have any recognised training, they have a course over a few days, read a book & then go out hacking at horses feet. Some will go on holiday to America & while away do a quick course & come back 'Qualified'

If you wish to go barefoot then call a registered farrier. He will take the shoes off professionally & will professionally trim the horses feet so they are balanced & level. A farrier will also be able to tell you very often if your horse has a problem. You can't cram years of training into a few days of a course & expect to really know what you are doing.
		
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Can you please tell me all about this few-day training course you know so much about? I was thinking about becoming a two-day trimmer and you seem to know most about it.... very interested to hear your thoughts as I don't like the idea of training for years on end just to learn about a hoof. I imagine it can be like learning to build a spaceship and sending it off into space and I'm not brainy enough to do that.

I really hope you can help. 

Thanks,

th!


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## Angua2 (25 May 2011)

melandjazz said:



			My horse used to be shod but us now barefoot. Its quite a long process as can take anything from a  month to a year for a horse to adjust. when they start to get the feeling back in their feet this is when they get 'footie'. It just takes time for there feet to harden up from having shoes on  

the impact on a horses leg with shoes:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fql-xsofeg0

and without:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_6yLEdr2EOM&feature=related

Click to expand...

Fasinating, as was the other video posted further up.

I was having a major wobble last night, about have I done the right thing, (and I have only done the hinds so far) and these yet again re-affirmed it all.  

I just wish there was a less "painful" way of doing the transition (and that is for the owner and not the horse!)

I can understand the OP's train of thought, but would like to thank her for posting this for those that are having less public wobbles.

Since diet is so important, how does one go around getting the paddock tested??


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## MissMistletoe (25 May 2011)

Paddock testing is done by getting a mineral analysis done on a sample of your grass, maybe soil as well, Im not really clued up in this area yet, but it's something that I am going to look into soon.

Try googling' mineral analysis for horse paddocks', or there are people on this board who have mentioned in their posts that they get their paddocks tested.....i think maybe Oberon on here does?.

Good luck with your horse.


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## tallyho! (25 May 2011)

Angua2 said:



			I just wish there was a less "painful" way of doing the transition (and that is for the owner and not the horse!)
		
Click to expand...

How about imagining that if the world ended tomorrow and there was no-one to nail a metal band on to a horses foot... which horses would survive longest?


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## tallyho! (25 May 2011)

Changes said:



			So the 'transition' to barefoot when the horse is frequently sore is not suffering? 
You have posted about restricted turnout times, making your horses wear muzzles etc - all so that you can 'go barefoot'. Not very natural for the horse - more about you following your ideals. 



Because a sliding boot will damage the soft tissue as the horse moves. 



So you would shoe and stud correctly for XC then?
		
Click to expand...

Are you saying that nailing shoes on and then turning out in squares is more natural? Or is that following ideals?

The IDEAL would be for them to run wild. Barefoot and muzzles is a better compromise in horse-human partnership than shoes and stable 24/7.

oh and lol about sliding boot... do you wear shoes? You do? Then does all your soft tissue fall off too?


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## Changes (25 May 2011)

tallyho! said:



			Are you saying that nailing shoes on and then turning out in squares is more natural? Or is that following ideals?

The IDEAL would be for them to run wild. Barefoot and muzzles is a better compromise in horse-human partnership than shoes and stable 24/7.

oh and lol about sliding boot... do you wear shoes? You do? Then does all your soft tissue fall off too?
		
Click to expand...

Ypou can't have it both ways - ie claiming it's not natural for a horse to wear shoes, and yet stabling them and restricting them (far more than my shod horses are) from grazing through the daytime? My shod horses, btw, are out 24/7, except in the worst of weather, and when they choose to let themselves stand inside in the shade of the barn. 

The ideal is that the horse is as happy and comfortable as we can make him because *we have domesticated him*. 
It's a spurious and ridiculous comment to say that the ideal is the horse running wild when we both know that doesn't and couldn't happen in the current world. 
ETA, except in the case of the New Forest ponies, Welshies and the Dartmoors,and that's not going well, is it?

Did I say the sliding boot caused soft tissue to fall off? If you want to question my post, at least read what I've written. 

Yes, I wear shoes, but then I'm human. And if your argument is failing to the extent that you have to compare a biped with a quadruped then you are seriously struggling..........


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## cptrayes (25 May 2011)

Changes said:



			So the 'transition' to barefoot when the horse is frequently sore is not suffering?
		
Click to expand...


The horse should be kept to surfaces where it is not sore. Suffering is not acceptable, nor necessary.



Changes said:



			You have posted about restricted turnout times, making your horses wear muzzles etc - all so that you can 'go barefoot'. Not very natural for the horse - more about you following your ideals.
		
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Do you think restricted turnout and muzzles are unique to barefoot horses? I do it to stop the bugs that are poisoning my horses systems from poisoning them. I know they are there because they go footie. Putting shoes on won't take those bugs away. Are you SERIOUSLY suggesting that I should shoe my horses so that they can continue to be sick?





Changes said:



			So you would shoe and stud correctly for XC then?
		
Click to expand...


No, I'd do THIS:

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_IaGqwoQlnmA/SKsobjsaQpI/AAAAAAAAAU4/Qo7zu6lPsBU/s1600-h/george080110-2.jpg

Take a good look at the landing surface. I have plenty of other pictures of five different horses on every type of going conceivable if you have any doubts about eventing barefoot.


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## Ladylina83 (25 May 2011)

Sorry guys I don't know why you are bothering (I gave up about post 5 on the 1st page) She's not interested in learning, she is just going to stick shoes on it end of:-(


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## cptrayes (25 May 2011)

This isn't the OP arguing, and other people read these threads and get good information from them. Besides, I'm babysitting an invalid and I have nothing better to do


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## Ladylina83 (25 May 2011)

cptrayes said:



			This isn't the OP arguing, and other people read these threads and get good information from them. Besides, I'm babysitting an invalid and I have nothing better to do 

Click to expand...

I know, and you always give really good solid advice ,but theres only so many times I can bear to read - My horse is out at grass full time 24/7 and can feel it's feet on stones so I think a full set is best .... why ask the question ? It's almost trollish when you know folk are so passionate about the topic

Sorry


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## Meowy Catkin (25 May 2011)

Ladylina83 said:



			I know, and you always give really good solid advice ,but theres only so many times I can bear to read - My horse is out at grass full time 24/7 and can feel it's feet on stones so I think a full set is best .... why ask the question ? It's almost trollish when you know folk are so passionate about the topic

Sorry
		
Click to expand...

That's a bit harsh. Most horse owners try to do the best for their horses. Sometimes there are good logical reasons as to why they come to the conclusions that they do. It can be very helpful to post a question on the forum to get other opinions but whatever they decide, they will not please everyone.


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## cptrayes (25 May 2011)

I know the trolls are there, but I also know that there are at least two horses alive and working now because I keep on answering these eejits and people who do want to know, but are afraid to comment, read them because they keep popping up in "new posts". So at the risk of boring others, I just keep going!


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## tallyho! (25 May 2011)

Changes said:



			Ypou can't have it both ways - ie claiming it's not natural for a horse to wear shoes, and yet stabling them and restricting them (far more than my shod horses are) from grazing through the daytime? My shod horses, btw, are out 24/7, except in the worst of weather, and when they choose to let themselves stand inside in the shade of the barn. 

The ideal is that the horse is as happy and comfortable as we can make him because *we have domesticated him*. 
It's a spurious and ridiculous comment to say that the ideal is the horse running wild when we both know that doesn't and couldn't happen in the current world. 
ETA, except in the case of the New Forest ponies, Welshies and the Dartmoors,and that's not going well, is it?

Did I say the sliding boot caused soft tissue to fall off? If you want to question my post, at least read what I've written. 

Yes, I wear shoes, but then I'm human. And if your argument is failing to the extent that you have to compare a biped with a quadruped then you are seriously struggling..........
		
Click to expand...

I did read it properly thank you and you were suggesting that boots compromises soft tissue when worn instead of shoes - i.e. damaging it so I exaggerated it just a little - ony a little because what you were saying was ridiculous enough. Don't try and change it.

Good for you that your horses are healthy and happy. Long may it continue. 

I AM having it both ways... I do not shoe anymore and I turn out 24/7. According to your ideal standards... I have only gone and achieved it. Hoorah. You putting people down who have already consciously made an educated decision is spurious and ridiculous. What are _your_ bases for this argument?


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## Changes (25 May 2011)

cptrayes said:



			The horse should be kept to surfaces where it is not sore. Suffering is not acceptable, nor necessary.
		
Click to expand...


If only that was feasible for everyone. It may be fine for you, but how many people that you are trying to push into going barefoot have those facilities?





cptrayes said:



			Do you think restricted turnout and muzzles are unique to barefoot horses? I do it to stop the bugs that are poisoning my horses systems from poisoning them. I know they are there because they go footie. Putting shoes on won't take those bugs away. Are you SERIOUSLY suggesting that I should shoe my horses so that they can continue to be sick?
		
Click to expand...

Of course restricted turnout is applies in all areas of horsemanship - it's practical and neccessary. But not natural - which is half the argument for barefoot. Practitioners argue the horse wasn't designed to have metal shoes, but neither was he designed to wear grazing muzzles and be confined to a box. You can't use what the horse does in the wild as a postivie for your argument then completely ignore it for another part. 

As for the second part, have you any idea how much nonsense that sounds?



cptrayes said:



			No, I'd do THIS:

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_IaGqwoQlnmA/SKsobjsaQpI/AAAAAAAAAU4/Qo7zu6lPsBU/s1600-h/george080110-2.jpg

Take a good look at the landing surface. I have plenty of other pictures of five different horses on every type of going conceivable if you have any doubts about eventing barefoot.
		
Click to expand...

And that proves what, exactly? I could post a photo of me jumping with shoes, what exactly are you trying to show? That surface landing is common and rarely slippy - studs would make no difference on such a surface. 
Studs are not about landing, they are about holding footing in all types of terrain, helping to grip when turning at speed, especially at the higher levels, and neccessarily in the showjumping when held on grass.


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## tallyho! (25 May 2011)

Changes said:



			If only that was feasible for everyone. It may be fine for you, but how many people that you are trying to push into going barefoot have those facilities?





Of course restricted turnout is applies in all areas of horsemanship - it's practical and neccessary. But not natural - which is half the argument for barefoot. Practitioners argue the horse wasn't designed to have metal shoes, but neither was he designed to wear grazing muzzles and be confined to a box. You can't use what the horse does in the wild as a postivie for your argument then completely ignore it for another part. 

As for the second part, have you any idea how much nonsense that sounds?



And that proves what, exactly? I could post a photo of me jumping with shoes, what exactly are you trying to show? That surface landing is common and rarely slippy - studs would make no difference on such a surface. 
Studs are not about landing, they are about holding footing in all types of terrain, helping to grip when turning at speed, especially at the higher levels, and neccessarily in the showjumping when held on grass.
		
Click to expand...

LOL - what????? You should go and get some facts down on paper and then come back and argue...


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## Changes (25 May 2011)

tallyho! said:



			I did read it properly thank you and you were suggesting that boots compromises soft tissue when worn instead of shoes - i.e. damaging it so I exaggerated it just a little - ony a little because what you were saying was ridiculous enough. Don't try and change it.
		
Click to expand...

So you admit to 'exaggerating' what I said, and then tell me to not try and change it? Don't put words in my mouth and then accuse me of being ridiculous about something I didn't say. Boots can cause soft tissue injury when thew move if the horse is going at any speed- they are not secure enough to guarantee not to move. Unless of course you just walk?



tallyho! said:



			I AM having it both ways... I do not shoe anymore and I turn out 24/7. According to your ideal standards... I have only gone and achieved it. Hoorah. You putting people down who have already consciously made an educated decision is spurious and ridiculous. What are _your_ bases for this argument?
		
Click to expand...

Erm - you jumped on a reply I made to someone who didn't turn out 24/7, so that wasn't directed at you? What is my basis for what argument? You seem to be randomly answering posts selectively. 
As far as ideal goes, I said:




			The ideal is that the horse is as happy and comfortable as we can make him *because we have domesticated him*.
		
Click to expand...

My horses are happy shod - you say yours are happy unshod - so what exactly is your problem? You guys are the ones saying that all horses should be barefoot, I'm saying some horses need shoes, and to compete at any *significant* level on grass, not a surface, horses need to be studded. 
Other than that, as long as the feet cope with the workload and the horse is not footy without shoes I couldn't care less what you do.


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## Changes (25 May 2011)

tallyho! said:



			LOL - what????? You should go and get some facts down on paper and then come back and argue...
		
Click to expand...

Too impatient to wait for me to reply to you? Frankly, it would be a waste of time writing facts for you, you've already admitted to changing what I write.


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## maggiesmum (25 May 2011)

changes -  you mention suffering so help me out here I had a TB diagnosed with navicular I researched and saw 2 options, I could have remedial shoes fitted and treat him with a whole host of drugs and there was a chance he'd be sound enough to be a hack OR I could try this 'new fangled' barefoot thing that seemed to be having a pretty good success rate? So thinks me, I can always re-shoe him if it doesn't work.

Yes he went through a transitioning period where he was footy while we worked on getting his diet right for him - it was at this point we discovered he was very prone to laminitis and that shoes had been masking the subtle signs for years - hence he'd been branded, nuts, bad tempered, dangerous etc etc  no he'd just been in pain and bloody miserable!

So nowadays he's sound and in work and actually pretty nice to be around without his shoes, and this is the bit i'd be interested to hear your opinion on - was I wrong to put him through a period of being uncomfortable to get him sound? 
should I not restrict his grazing and allow him to be in pain? 
Exactly what other management options does he have?
Its all very well to say if they need shoes put them on - but why on earth would I put on the very thing that made him lame in the first place? To mask the early warning signs of LGL so I can pretend it doesn't exist? 

For him there is no other option save a bullet, now i'm no softy and have no problem making the decision to PTS if and when necessary, but with a few management tweaks  he's fine so why would I do anything else?


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## AngieandBen (25 May 2011)

Whats the difference between barefoot and unshod? 

To me, my pony is barefoot although he wears front boots;  We don't call people not wearing shoes unshoed, we say they are walking around barefooted.


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## cptrayes (25 May 2011)

Changes said:



			If only that was feasible for everyone. It may be fine for you, but how many people that you are trying to push into going barefoot have those facilities?
		
Click to expand...

I am pushing no-one. No-one on this thread has been pushing anyone. If they do not have the facitilies of a soft grass field and a stable with a bed and their horse is sore (many never are, showing just how many horses wear shoes for absolutely no reason) then they should keep their horse shod.





Changes said:



			Of course restricted turnout is applies in all areas of horsemanship - it's practical and neccessary. But not natural - which is half the argument for barefoot. Practitioners argue the horse wasn't designed to have metal shoes, but neither was he designed to wear grazing muzzles and be confined to a box. You can't use what the horse does in the wild as a postivie for your argument then completely ignore it for another part.
		
Click to expand...

I do not advocate everything natural for a horse. I have never said anything about wild horses. I just advocate barefoot for the majority of domestic horses because they simply do not need shoes.

As to stupidity, which you accuse me of, I can think of nothing more stupid that to shoe a horse to mask the signs of early laminitis, leaving the bugs that cause it in the horse's bloodstream to cause the temperament, liver and itchy skin issues which are so rife in spring and summer. Do you realise that many cases of sweetitch can be completely cured by restricting the horse's access to grass? Does this not suggest to you that such restriction is far from the dreadful thing you make it out to be, but a matter of the health of the horse, since the sweetitch is resulting from a poorly functioning liver?



Changes said:



			And that proves what, exactly? I could post a photo of me jumping with shoes, what exactly are you trying to show? That surface landing is common and rarely slippy - studs would make no difference on such a surface. 
Studs are not about landing, they are about holding footing in all types of terrain, helping to grip when turning at speed, especially at the higher levels, and neccessarily in the showjumping when held on grass.
		
Click to expand...

You asked me what I would do and I showed you. Studs are not "necessary" for any discipline. I have done them all barefoot. No hunter jumping 6ft hedges has studs and yet every eventer arguing about barefoot says they need them to jump event fences. They may help you win, but they are not "necessary" and they put huge strain on the horses joints. You can do that to your horses if you like, I don't like. 

You really are looking for a fight over this, aren't you Changes?


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## Brambridge04 (25 May 2011)

Ok, i would like to thank you ALL for your replies.

Due to my current plans / circumstances, she will be shod, for summer, they will be off over winter regardless.

I will re-assess earlier next spring, when hacking and road work increases and ground hardens, i will attempt then to see if she can be accustomed to staying barefoot, as by the my circumstances will be different.

HOWEVER, if she shows signs of struggling, for more than what could be classed as transitioning / getting used to it etc, she will be reshod for summer.

Again, thank you for your opinions and responses.


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## tallyho! (25 May 2011)

AngieandBen said:



			Whats the difference between barefoot and unshod? 

To me, my pony is barefoot although he wears front boots;  We don't call people not wearing shoes unshoed, we say they are walking around barefooted. 

Click to expand...

Does it bloody matter?


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## Zuzan (25 May 2011)

AngieandBen said:



			Whats the difference between barefoot and unshod? 

To me, my pony is barefoot although he wears front boots;  We don't call people not wearing shoes unshoed, we say they are walking around barefooted. 

Click to expand...

I think it's to do with intention.. unshod is not intentional..  but simply because the horse / pony is precieved not to need shoes..  

With Barefoot there is an *intention to look at the hoof as fully functioning as the rest of the horse *  it is very much about getting the conditions and diet right and there are differences between a pasture trim as per unshod and a trim to encourage the hoof to function as well as it possibly can.  

I kind of think that shoes just plaster over hooves that really aren't up to much.. just as I wouldn't want to ride with girth galls (or cause them) I wouldn't want to ride if the hoof wasn't up to work either..


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## tallyho! (25 May 2011)

Changes said:



			Too impatient to wait for me to reply to you? Frankly, it would be a waste of time writing facts for you, you've already admitted to changing what I write.
		
Click to expand...

Impatient? No, I had to go off and ride my unshod/barefoot horse across some fields that have just been cut for silage 'cause farmer said I could use it as a "gallop"  Can't turn such offers down these days..!!!! I also had to practice  couple of SJ fences as got a comp on Sun. Boy do I feel good after that 

I only change what you say because what you write is a load of bullsnot and it's all the better for making sense of you dear.


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## tallyho! (25 May 2011)

Brambridge04 said:



			Ok, i would like to thank you ALL for your replies.

Due to my current plans / circumstances, she will be shod, for summer, they will be off over winter regardless.

I will re-assess earlier next spring, when hacking and road work increases and ground hardens, i will attempt then to see if she can be accustomed to staying barefoot, as by the my circumstances will be different.

HOWEVER, if she shows signs of struggling, for more than what could be classed as transitioning / getting used to it etc, she will be reshod for summer.

Again, thank you for your opinions and responses.
		
Click to expand...

It went off on a tangent regardless Bambridge, as is usual. Whatever, you know what is best for your horse... we're just having fun arguing about nothing...


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## intouch (25 May 2011)

Zuzan said:



			I think it's to do with intention.. unshod is not intentional..  but simply because the horse / pony is precieved not to need shoes..  

With Barefoot there is an *intention to look at the hoof as fully functioning as the rest of the horse *  it is very much about getting the conditions and diet right and there are differences between a pasture trim as per unshod and a trim to encourage the hoof to function as well as it possibly can.
		
Click to expand...

You might enjoy this - 

http://thehorseshoof.com/pdf_articles/BarefootParadigm.pdf


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## GingerCat (25 May 2011)

I'm still undecided over the whole 'barefoot V shoes' debate as I can see valid points in both sides of the arguements.

One thing that always gets me riled though, is barefoot advocates who use the wild mustang as an example of the 'natural foot' ...yes, I can see that it is , but what on earth does a wild mustangs foot have in common with a hoof that's been trimmed by human hand?
The foot of a wild horse is shaped by it's conformation, it's way of going and the terrain that it travels over, it's not shaped by trimming. 
So how can it be held up as an example of how things should be?


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## cptrayes (26 May 2011)

Because lots of us who are barefoot do have horses whose feet are "shaped by it's conformation, it's way of going and the terrain that it travels over, it's not shaped by trimming. "

I very rarely trim height off my horse's feet, I just smooth off sharp edges if I do anything. Hardworking baerfooters are self trimming. It a joy to see a horse produce feet which are perfectly tuned for its body and its work. Check out the blog for the rehab yard, Rockleyfarm.blogspot.com  Horses there are rarely trimmed, they are given the perfect environment to trim themselves and by doing so many written off "navicular spectrum" lame horses have come sound and back into full work.  

It's held up as an example, not by me by the way, because it is an ideal to aim for.  Like many other ideals it is unacheivable for many people but that does not make it any less of an ideal.


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## Changes (26 May 2011)

cptrayes said:



			I am pushing no-one. No-one on this thread has been pushing anyone. If they do not have the facitilies of a soft grass field and a stable with a bed and their horse is sore (many never are, showing just how many horses wear shoes for absolutely no reason) then they should keep their horse shod.





I do not advocate everything natural for a horse. I have never said anything about wild horses. I just advocate barefoot for the majority of domestic horses because they simply do not need shoes.

As to stupidity, which you accuse me of, I can think of nothing more stupid that to shoe a horse to mask the signs of early laminitis, leaving the bugs that cause it in the horse's bloodstream to cause the temperament, liver and itchy skin issues which are so rife in spring and summer. Do you realise that many cases of sweetitch can be completely cured by restricting the horse's access to grass? Does this not suggest to you that such restriction is far from the dreadful thing you make it out to be, but a matter of the health of the horse, since the sweetitch is resulting from a poorly functioning liver?



You asked me what I would do and I showed you. Studs are not "necessary" for any discipline. I have done them all barefoot. No hunter jumping 6ft hedges has studs and yet every eventer arguing about barefoot says they need them to jump event fences. They may help you win, but they are not "necessary" and they put huge strain on the horses joints. You can do that to your horses if you like, I don't like. 

You really are looking for a fight over this, aren't you Changes?
		
Click to expand...

No, I'm not looking for a fight, I'm disagreeing with you, which I am perfectly entitled to do. Jumping 6ft hedges out hunting is not comparable to eventing. The fact of you using it as a comparison shows how little you understand the needs of a decent level event horse. 

I don't disagree about restricting turnout, for whatever reason for a horse's health, it's the hypocrisy of the argument for the 'natural' foot, when 'naturally' horses are not on restricted grazing with stabling. As I said, you can'y have it both ways. 

As far as sweet itch goes, restricting grazing does make sense, to avoid the times of day when the midges are at their most vicious, early morning and evening. Sweet itch is an allergic reaction to the bite of the midge.


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## Changes (26 May 2011)

maggiesmum said:



			changes -  you mention suffering so help me out here I had a TB diagnosed with navicular I researched and saw 2 options, I could have remedial shoes fitted and treat him with a whole host of drugs and there was a chance he'd be sound enough to be a hack OR I could try this 'new fangled' barefoot thing that seemed to be having a pretty good success rate? So thinks me, I can always re-shoe him if it doesn't work.

Yes he went through a transitioning period where he was footy while we worked on getting his diet right for him - it was at this point we discovered he was very prone to laminitis and that shoes had been masking the subtle signs for years - hence he'd been branded, nuts, bad tempered, dangerous etc etc  no he'd just been in pain and bloody miserable!

So nowadays he's sound and in work and actually pretty nice to be around without his shoes, and this is the bit i'd be interested to hear your opinion on - was I wrong to put him through a period of being uncomfortable to get him sound? 
should I not restrict his grazing and allow him to be in pain? 
Exactly what other management options does he have?
Its all very well to say if they need shoes put them on - but why on earth would I put on the very thing that made him lame in the first place? To mask the early warning signs of LGL so I can pretend it doesn't exist? 

For him there is no other option save a bullet, now i'm no softy and have no problem making the decision to PTS if and when necessary, but with a few management tweaks  he's fine so why would I do anything else?
		
Click to expand...

I'm not going to argue with your personal experience, because you know far more about this particular horse than I do, obviously. I don't agree with him being footy and sore when you took the shoes off. Luckily, it seems to have worked for your horse. There are a lot that it doesn't work for. 
If his diet was the problem, then how is it the fault of the shoes? If a horse is sore, he's sore. Shoes won't mask laminitic pain. 
If the NS is the fault of the shoes, then that is poor farriery, no more, no less.


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## cptrayes (26 May 2011)

Changes said:



			No, I'm not looking for a fight, I'm disagreeing with you, which I am perfectly entitled to do. Jumping 6ft hedges out hunting is not comparable to eventing. The fact of you using it as a comparison shows how little you understand the needs of a decent level event horse. 

I don't disagree about restricting turnout, for whatever reason for a horse's health, it's the hypocrisy of the argument for the 'natural' foot, when 'naturally' horses are not on restricted grazing with stabling. As I said, you can'y have it both ways. 

As far as sweet itch goes, restricting grazing does make sense, to avoid the times of day when the midges are at their most vicious, early morning and evening. Sweet itch is an allergic reaction to the bite of the midge.
		
Click to expand...

Oh good, you're back, what fun 

I think I know exactly what the needs of a decent event horse are, and also how eventing and hunting differs.

Eventing:

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-igs2byMglc4/Td5Vr2_C4OI/AAAAAAAAAsM/pNBOeDtsicQ/s1600/Somerford+Tetley.jpg

Hunting:

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-...AAAAAArU/i1ToTVuMMkk/s1600/Coming+Down+WR.jpg


I have never advocated everything natural for a horse, there is no hypocrisy in anything that I write.

Your information about sweet itch is incomplete. In many horses the origin of the disease is a malfunction of the liver cause by too much sugar from grass and/or carrots. If the sugar is reduced or removed, the sweet itch which many horses suffer is also removed.


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## cptrayes (26 May 2011)

Changes said:



			I'm not going to argue with your personal experience, because you know far more about this particular horse than I do, obviously. I don't agree with him being footy and sore when you took the shoes off. Luckily, it seems to have worked for your horse. There are a lot that it doesn't work for. 
If his diet was the problem, then how is it the fault of the shoes? If a horse is sore, he's sore. Shoes won't mask laminitic pain. 
If the NS is the fault of the shoes, then that is poor farriery, no more, no less.
		
Click to expand...

Shoes DO mask laminitic pain. Shoeing is used as a therapeutic tool to reduce pain in critically laminitic horses and ponies. Check out the Veterinary thread for the vet Alsiola advocating their use for that very purpose. Horses with very mild laminitis causing them to be footie on gravel go sound with shoes on. That's why people shoe them.


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## AndySpooner (26 May 2011)

Doing something drastic like shoeing a horse, needs time to recover from if you decide to remove the shoes. Not to expect some footiness seems unreasonable to me during the transition period. This discomfort can be managed with boots and pads until it is passed, and is no reason not to go barefoot.
The very idea that short do not mask early signs of laminitis displays gross ignorance and stupidity, especially now there is so much information available.


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## AndySpooner (26 May 2011)

Doing something drastic like shoeing a horse, needs time to recover from if you decide to remove the shoes. Not to expect some footiness seems unreasonable to me during the transition period. This discomfort can be managed with boots and pads until it is passed, and is no reason not to go barefoot.
The very idea that shoes do not mask early signs of laminitis displays gross ignorance and stupidity, especially now there is so mu.      ch information available.


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## Tnavas (26 May 2011)

Ladylina83 said:



			Well something causes this Jemima ! 







(this horse has one shoe on - can you guess which leg ?? )
		
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I would  be concerned if I saw a thermograph with areas showing blue as this shows that the area is cold showing poor circulation!

This horse has shoes on the front - is in his early 20's is a riding school horse working at least a couple of hours daily. He has been in the school for 19yrs since coming off the race track. His lameness issues were ligament. Note the white areas (coronary band) are the same in the hind feet which have not had shoes on for 19yrs.







Apart from my youngsters all my horses have been shod, all have had excellent feet - lovely shape, well defined frogs no lameness bar an abscess or two over 40+years. None had contracted heels, I had an excellent farrier both in UK & in NZ. My current farrier in NZ spent some of his training time with my old farrier - small world!


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## Brambridge04 (26 May 2011)

UPDATE

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=459147


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## GingerCat (26 May 2011)

Off topic I know but....



cptrayes said:



			Your information about sweet itch is incomplete. In many horses the origin of the disease is a malfunction of the liver cause by too much sugar from grass and/or carrots. If the sugar is reduced or removed, the sweet itch which many horses suffer is also removed.
		
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Where have you got such information from?

Quote from The National Sweet Itch Centre'

_...Sweet-itch is a problem caused by an excessive reaction to the bites of midges. It begins with an intolerably itchy allergic reaction to the saliva of the midge, which is then followed by an autoimmune over-reaction as the horses immune system attempts to right the original wrong. During this process thickening and ulceration of the skin occurs and this only returns to normal at the end of the midge season. Both the allergy and the autoimmunity are caused by a dysregulation of the immune system to a mode known as Th2...._

No mention there about malfunction of the liver in response to sugars.


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## Changes (26 May 2011)

cptrayes said:



			Oh good, you're back, what fun 

I think I know exactly what the needs of a decent event horse are, and also how eventing and hunting differs.

Eventing:

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-igs2byMglc4/Td5Vr2_C4OI/AAAAAAAAAsM/pNBOeDtsicQ/s1600/Somerford+Tetley.jpg

Hunting:

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-...AAAAAArU/i1ToTVuMMkk/s1600/Coming+Down+WR.jpg


I have never advocated everything natural for a horse, there is no hypocrisy in anything that I write.

Your information about sweet itch is incomplete. In many horses the origin of the disease is a malfunction of the liver cause by too much sugar from grass and/or carrots. If the sugar is reduced or removed, the sweet itch which many horses suffer is also removed.
		
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Why oh why do you think you are more knowledgeable than the 3/4* riders who compete professionally? Do you think they stud for fun? Another pic of you jumping a plain old fence is not proof that you are right. 
And jumping big fences in an arena on grass means studs are essential. 

OK, I'm up for veterinary proof that my knowledge of sweet itch may be incomplete - please provide it. Or are you going to dispute it's an allergic reaction to midge bites too?


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## dizz4 (26 May 2011)

Hi just wanted to add my two penny worth opinion... we currently have 5 horses in work all Welsh Cobs and only one of them has shoes on at the front.... My horse has such soft horn that it just folds under and it sounds like he is wearing carpet slippers when he is unshod and he has virtually no hoof wall at all.... This works really well for my horse and he competes at County level and dressage...  

My daughters pony has had laminitus and is now back competing but she gets a little footy on the hard ground so she wears Easy boots which give her sole protection and she goes really well in these and it really makes a difference.... other than that I would keep them unshod as they seem to work well and have no real problems.  We don't do a lot of roadwork so they manage very well......  

The downside of having shoes is that when mine was shod all round, he managed to get his foot stuck in a gate pulled a new shoe off and was then subsequently lame for nearly 3 years.... so therebye hangs a tail... he is only shod at the front now....

Dizz4


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## Tnavas (26 May 2011)

tallyho! said:



			Are you saying that nailing shoes on and then turning out in squares is more natural? Or is that following ideals?

The IDEAL would be for them to run wild. Barefoot and muzzles is a better compromise in horse-human partnership than shoes and stable 24/7.

oh and lol about sliding boot... do you wear shoes? You do? Then does all your soft tissue fall off too?
		
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If I wear shoes and run through mud that leaches into my shoes then yes my feet would soon become sore and blistered.

I've seen first hand what some boots can do in less than ideal conditions, raw heels, grooves being dug into the wall of the foot by the friction of the boot against the horn.

My mare is currently overweight - I tried the muzzle - she became very depressed and angry so it has been removed. Horror of horrors she is out in the daytime and in at night with a slice of hay. She is losing weight! and is now far happier without her muzzle.

She has never yet worn shoes is trimmed by my qualified UK farrier - whose comments on 'barefoot training and trimming' is not repeatable on a public forum. She is a Clydesdale and I've had many people complement me on the shape of her feet. She has lovely feet. Except when she forgets where she is putting them! She doesn't need a barefoot trimmer.

A recent study on the wild horses of the Kaimanawa ranges showed horses and ponies with terrible feet. Many had low grade laminitis, splits, chips and poorly shaped feet.


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## Mitchyden (26 May 2011)

This debate on sweet itch is very interesting. Both of my horses suffer from this condition, Lana is just a bit itchy but Zara is one of the most horrendous cases I have ever seen.

I decided in December last year to try my horses barefoot, something I have been very sceptical about in the past. My reason for this is that Zara was lame with a bone spavin so I didn't want to keep forking out for shoes when I couldn't ride and I was fed up with them both coming in from the field with snowballs in their feet.

The minute Lana had her shoes off I could ride her and she changed from a horse that tripped numerous times out hacking and in the school to a horse that has probably only tripped up twice since December last year!

This spring I had to keep them in during the daytime and out at night until end of April but now they are out 24/7 on a track system to keep them moving. I have been careful what supplements they get and what I feed them which brings me back to the sweet itch.

Lana has had her boett rug removed for the last three weeks and hasn't tried to scratch at all. Zara is still wearing hers, but I'm only having to cream between her back legs every two to three days as opposed to twice daily. I thought this was down to the copper and zinc supplement I was feeding them but perhaps it's down to their general health.

I get really cross by people who call us "the barefoot brigade" as I'm only doing what I think is right for my horse and I don't preach to anybody else. It is a very satisfying feeling looking at Lana's feet after doing a 10 mile ride on very stoney tracks and there is not so much as a chip in sight! They are nicely rounded and self trimming and my farrier is very impressed with them. 

What annoys me is the other people on my yard who are desperate for me to fail but all I can see are benefits.


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## cptrayes (26 May 2011)

GingerCat said:



			Off topic I know but....



Where have you got such information from?

Quote from The National Sweet Itch Centre'

_...Sweet-itch is a problem caused by an excessive reaction to the bites of midges. It begins with an intolerably itchy allergic reaction to the saliva of the midge, which is then followed by an autoimmune over-reaction as the horse&#8217;s immune system attempts to right the original wrong. During this process thickening and ulceration of the skin occurs and this only returns to normal at the end of the midge season. Both the allergy and the autoimmunity are caused by a dysregulation of the immune system to a mode known as Th2...._

No mention there about malfunction of the liver in response to sugars.
	
	
		
		
	


	




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I have it from real life experience and from posters on this forum. Last year I took on a horse who, to prevent him from being put down, had to be removed from grass. He came with the instruction to use sweet itch rugs (he came with two) 24/7 even when he was in the stable. He never seemed to be the least itchy with me and those rugs never went on him. His previous owner, when I told her, said that she was tearing her hair out with frustration at me because if I did not get the rugs on before he started, then he would rub himself as raw as a piece of beef. He had scars on his tail to prove that he had done so in the past. I live near water and cannot myself work outside at 4pm without midge repellent and a hat on. 

I was, to say the least, gobsmacked, so I posted on this forum to see if any other people had a similar case, to be told that there were lots. It is very common for sweetitch symptoms to be reduced on a reduced grass diet. Not many people remove a horse from grass completely, of course, but I'll bet my bottom dollar that there are dozens of itchy horses out there who would be completely free of sweetitch if they were on a dry lot and not eating grass. 

I don't think that the National Sweet Itch Centre has the full picture.  I know what I saw in front of my own eyes, and I hear what other people found to be the case as well.


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## cptrayes (26 May 2011)

Evelyn said:



			A recent study on the wild horses of the Kaimanawa ranges showed horses and ponies with terrible feet. Many had low grade laminitis, splits, chips and poorly shaped feet.
		
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Yes, that was "neglect", not "keeping horses naturally". They were left in an area where the forage was far too rich for their genetic make-up. New Forest ponies have terrible feet too. It does not tell us much about barefoot horses to study groups like that.


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## cptrayes (26 May 2011)

Changes said:



			Why oh why do you think you are more knowledgeable than the 3/4* riders who compete professionally? Do you think they stud for fun? Another pic of you jumping a plain old fence is not proof that you are right. 
And jumping big fences in an arena on grass means studs are essential. 

OK, I'm up for veterinary proof that my knowledge of sweet itch may be incomplete - please provide it. Or are you going to dispute it's an allergic reaction to midge bites too?
		
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I don't think I know any better than 3* riders, where did you hear me say that? They don't stud for fun they stud to win. I have already stated that studs are necessary if you want to win. If you are going to put a horse around corners faster than his natural balance would make safe, then you need studs. On a dry dressage arena you need studs. 

I rode for fun and I chose not to stud my horse after the first couple of seasons because I do not like the unnatural forces that studs put on the leg joints. It doesn't bother me if other people want to stud, but it is not necessary to stud to event. 

Are you aware that there has been a barefoot 3* horse? They could not keep him sound in shoes so they ran him without.  There are people currently competing to Intermediate and they will go higher as the horses become more experienced.

I have plenty of other pics Changes, but you'll have to come to tea and look through my albums, I cannot be bothered to post any more, because you are entrenched in your corner and you aren't going to leave it no matter what evidence we come up with that we know what we are talking about. 

Plain old fence - I love it   Can I see your pics of the fences you jump please? Just to remind new readers, this is what Changes is calling a "plain old fence"   To give you the scale I am nearly 5ft 9 and the  horse is a very long backed 17.1hh. He has shoes on in this pic, I wasn't using it to show him barefoot but to counter Changes challenge that I did not know what was involved in eventing to "a decent level" :

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-igs2byMglc4/Td5Vr2_C4OI/AAAAAAAAAsM/pNBOeDtsicQ/s1600/Somerford+Tetley.jpg

But I will just say that as someone who has hunted and evented, you are kidding yourself if you do not think that in the course of a season starting in August and finishing in April, bold hunters do not jump more difficult fences from more treacherous take-offs onto more perilous landings than are found on any 4* event course. I have yet to find an event course with a take-off on tarmac or a landing covered in cowpats. No hunter wears studs.


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## Changes (26 May 2011)

cptrayes said:



			I have it from real life experience and from posters on this forum. Last year I took on a horse who, to prevent him from being put down, had to be removed from grass. He came with the instruction to use sweet itch rugs (he came with two) 24/7 even when he was in the stable. He never seemed to be the least itchy with me and those rugs never went on him. His previous owner, when I told her, said that she was tearing her hair out with frustration at me because if I did not get the rugs on before he started, then he would rub himself as raw as a piece of beef. He had scars on his tail to prove that he had done so in the past. I live near water and cannot myself work outside at 4pm without midge repellent and a hat on. 

I was, to say the least, gobsmacked, so I posted on this forum to see if any other people had a similar case, to be told that there were lots. It is very common for sweetitch symptoms to be reduced on a reduced grass diet. Not many people remove a horse from grass completely, of course, but I'll bet my bottom dollar that there are dozens of itchy horses out there who would be completely free of sweetitch if they were on a dry lot and not eating grass. 

I don't think that the National Sweet Itch Centre has the full picture.  I know what I saw in front of my own eyes, and I hear what other people found to be the case as well.
		
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That's an interesting viewpoint - however - you said it was the liver function earlier? I would still like to see veterinary proof of that. 
And until you conduct a study to see what happens with a lot of horses, you are just guessing, so please don't present a theory as fact as you did earlier. 
However, that said, have you contacted the Sweet Itch people with your findings? I'm sure they would like to hear about a solution.


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## Changes (26 May 2011)

cptrayes said:



			I don't think I know any better than 3* riders, where did you hear me say that? They don't stud for fun they stud to win. I have already stated that studs are necessary if you want to win. If you are going to put a horse around corners faster than his natural balance would make safe, then you need studs. On a dry dressage arena you need studs. 

I rode for fun and I chose not to stud my horse after the first couple of seasons because I do not like the unnatural forces that studs put on the leg joints. It doesn't bother me if other people want to stud, but it is not necessary to stud to event. 

Are you aware that there has been a barefoot 3* horse? They could not keep him sound in shoes so they ran him without.  There are people currently competing to Intermediate and they will go higher as the horses become more experienced.

I have plenty of other pics Changes, but you'll have to come to tea and look through my albums, I cannot be bothered to post any more, because you are entrenched in your corner and you aren't going to leave it no matter what evidence we come up with that we know what we are talking about. 

But I will just say that as someone who has hunted and evented, you are kidding yourself if you do not think that in the course of a season starting in August and finishing in April, bold hunters do not jump more difficult fences from more treacherous take-offs onto more perilous landings than are found on any 4* event course. I have yet to find an event course with a take-off on tarmac or a landing covered in cowpats. No hunter wears studs.
		
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I stud to SJ on grass, I stud to go XC, I stud to do dressage, if not on a surface. I stud to keep my horses safe from slipping, nothing to do with the need to win. Young horses ridden by pros are not studded to win. They are studded to keep them safely on their feet. You really have the wrong end of the stick on this. 

BTW, I have hunted for years, on loads of horses in all types of ground and never studded. The ground is far too unpredictable. Why do you assume that I don't know what I'm discussing? 

I'm no more entrenched in my corner than you are - it would be funny if you could only see it.
 I looked at 'barefoot', read up about it, decided each to their own and let them get on with it. It's the evangelical ones like you that come on and suggest that barefoot is the answer to everything that drives those of us that live and let live to distraction. But you don't see it, you seem to think that those of us that disagree are being confrontational or trolling, simply because we do not buy into the narrow system of barefoot that you have. 

I've also seen some serious damage done to horses feet by supposedly qualified trimmers. And some very sore horses being kept 'barefoot'. 
We took one on that was going to be put down because the owner couldn't keep him sound on her barefoot regime. She'd been trying for 18 months or so, and this poor horse was miserable, his legs were filling,he was abscessing etc. 
His feet were left alone for the first fortnight away from the owner, a set of shoes were put on and the horse has been sound ever since (over 2 years ago).


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## cptrayes (26 May 2011)

Oh you tease ! You do like an argument don't you???

Does it matter whether it was his liver or his penis, as long as it was the grass that was causing it???? That's the  point we were trying to discuss, but you specialise in picking holes in people's arguments which are not material to the main thing being discussed.


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## tallyho! (26 May 2011)

GingerCat said:



			Off topic I know but....



Where have you got such information from?

Quote from The National Sweet Itch Centre'

_...Sweet-itch is a problem caused by an excessive reaction to the bites of midges. It begins with an intolerably itchy allergic reaction to the saliva of the midge, which is then followed by an autoimmune over-reaction as the horses immune system attempts to right the original wrong. During this process thickening and ulceration of the skin occurs and this only returns to normal at the end of the midge season. Both the allergy and the autoimmunity are caused by a dysregulation of the immune system to a mode known as Th2...._

No mention there about malfunction of the liver in response to sugars.
	
	
		
		
	


	




Click to expand...

Actually that isn't technically correct - sweetitch loosely groups several types of itchyness/skin psoriases/lesions on horses. If you googled sweetitch you DO actually find sources that confirm the liver has a part to play in general health and disease tolerance. The saliva reaction is only ONE kind of sweetitch. It doesn't help those sufferers who are allergic to tree pollen, rapeseed, grass even. Not all sweetitch is an *autoimmune* disease. Most are simply an immune-reponse which (yes, is excessive) raises levels of histamines & cytokines which cause irritation (in the case of midges). TH2 are T-Helper Cells which are signal cells and in autoimmune disease is very complex and involves genetics and the presence of certain markers.

Auto-immune is when the body attacks ITSELF - like Rheumatoid Arthritis, Spondyloarthropathies, Ulcerative Colitis, Crohnes, Encephalopathy, Psoriasis etc. I'm not sure sweetitch falls into this category. It's more of an allergy category.

We ALL agree - even Dr Eustace who is one of the leading lights in lami - agrees excess sugar makes horses sick. They have sick feet, sick livers, sick skin - not all at once one hopes! He agrees that some have a higher tolerance to sugars than others but not which ones. That is like saying you can tell who has diabetes (i/ii) in a classroom of mixed people. Most doctors could tell you sugar makes humans sick nevermind an animal that wasn't built to handle it at all.

I think what is encouranging is that despite the bickering, people are beginning to question what is right. What you'll be surprised to hear is that, it is the work of conscientious, inquisitive OWNERS not professionals who will be making the biggest leaps forward in equine science, quietly, behind the scenes. It will take many years, perhaps not in my lifetime but I am confident things will change. Epidemics (i.e. laminitis) always bring about change.


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## cptrayes (26 May 2011)

Changes said:



			I stud to SJ on grass, I stud to go XC, I stud to do dressage, if not on a surface. I stud to keep my horses safe from slipping, nothing to do with the need to win. Young horses ridden by pros are not studded to win. They are studded to keep them safely on their feet. You really have the wrong end of the stick on this.
		
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They are studded to keep them safely on their feet when they are too young and/or too unbalanced to jump safely without studs. It is quite possible to showjump without studs and there are people who do. But with a young and unbalanced horse you may well have to take things slower. I have had one unshod horse slip and fall over with me. He didn't do it because he had no shoes or studs on. He did it because I misjudged the situation and put him round a 90degree turn on a severe slope on hard ground too fast. 

You stud whenever you want to. I don't mind. But don't tell me it's essential. It's not.



Changes said:



			BTW, I have hunted for years, on loads of horses in all types of ground and never studded. The ground is far too unpredictable. Why do you assume that I don't know what I'm discussing?
		
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Because you said earlier that hunters did not need studs when eventers did because they were doing jumps that did not need studs like eventers do. I can hardly believe that you do actually hunt and yet you don't think your horse does at least as tricky things hunting as it does eventing. How surprising! 



Changes said:



			I'm no more entrenched in my corner than you are - it would be funny if you could only see it.
		
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It IS funny, I am finding this discussion immensely diverting from my current task of babysitting an invalid 




Changes said:



			I looked at 'barefoot', read up about it, decided each to their own and let them get on with it. It's the evangelical ones like you that come on and suggest that barefoot is the answer to everything that drives those of us that live and let live to distraction.
		
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Do please enlighten me where I ever said any such thing.




Changes said:



			But you don't see it, you seem to think that those of us that disagree are being confrontational or trolling, simply because we do not buy into the system of barefoot that you have.
		
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If I believe that you are incorrect then I am entitled to say so. You are entitled to disagree with me.  Debate is good. 



Changes said:



			I've also seen some serious damage done to horses feet by supposedly qualified trimmers. And some very sore horses being kept 'barefoot'. We took one on that was going to be put down because the owner couldn't keep him sound on her barefoot regime. She'd been trying for 18 moths or so, and this poor horse was miserable, his legs were filling,he was abscessing etc. 
His feet were left alone for the first fortnight away from the owner, a set of shoes were put on and the horse has been sound ever since (over 2 years ago).
		
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There is good and bad trimming. There are good and bad farriers. There are horse owners who are brilliant and there are horse owners who are so stupid as to be dangerous. I could come up with a dozen stories about shod horses that counter yours and some more barefoot horror stories too. No-one should keep a horse barefoot that is miserable, abscessing etc. The owner was a cruel idiot. Unfortunately, the world has plenty of idiots. 

Plenty of horses stay sound all their lives in shoes. But plenty of them could have done perfectly well without them, so why on earth have those ones got them on???


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## Changes (26 May 2011)

cptrayes said:



			Plenty of horses stay sound all their lives in shoes. But plenty of them could have done perfectly well without them, so why on earth have those ones got them on???
		
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To put studs in? And you don't KNOW that they will have done perfectly well without them. 
I wouldn't bother debating with you if you weren't so sure you're right and the huge majority of experienced horseowners are wrong. You jump into as many posts as you can telling people to try barefoot. 

As I said - you can't tell what terrain you will be on for hunting, so how can you stud. Read what I said, it's not to do with the jumps, it's all about the surface.


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## cptrayes (26 May 2011)

Changes said:



			To put studs in? And you don't KNOW that they will have done perfectly well without them. 
I wouldn't bother debating with you if you weren't so sure you're right and the huge majority of experienced horseowners are wrong. You jump into as many posts as you can telling people to try barefoot. 

As I said - you can't tell what terrain you will be on for hunting, so how can you stud. Read what I said, it's not to do with the jumps, it's all about the surface.
		
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Changes if your horse can cope with any dreadful and unexpected takeoffs and landing out hunting without studs then I am at a loss to understand your argument that he could not event without them. The argument is not that studs are impractical for hunting (and dangerous to fallers). That is a given. The argument is that if you can hunt without them then it's perfectly clear to me that you can event without them. And I have and other people do to higher levels than I did. 

A very very very small proportion of the total horses in this country are ever studded Changes. Studs are one of the few genuine reasons to shoe. If you want studs for competition, you need to shoe. Fine.

But I would love to see us stop shoeing the horses who it is blindingly obvious can manage perfectly well without.

I do know that there are thousands of horses who will do fine without shoes because I am aware of hundreds and hundreds of horses doing identical work who do manage perfectly well without them. Those include a high proportion of horses, including my own, where farriers have said that the horse will never cope without shoes. And not a few where the horse was so foot-lame even after meds and remedial shoes that the owner was told to retire the horse or put it down. 

If I have a 100% success record in getting 5 horses eventing without shoes and another 5 hacking stony tracks/jumping/dressage without shoes, and not a single failure including one whose feet could be bent with my fingers, then I am absolutely certain that if you gave me another 100 horses I would get at least 80% of them (I actually think 95% or greater, but for the sake of argument let's say 80) doing their current workload without shoes.

Do you really think that every pony in the country who is currently shod, who in the fifties would not have been seen anywhere near metal shoes, needs them?

Do you really think that every cob with great big solid feet with shoes on needs them?

Do you really think that every dressage horse being taken from its stable to a prepared arena to work and back again, with a bit of turnout maybe, needs them?

I don't believe that even you can believe that. And if you don't believe that then it follows that  there are thousands and thousands of horses and ponies in this country with shoes on for NO GOOD REASON.


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## Oberon (26 May 2011)

You can't doubt CpTrayes' enthusiasm.

But to be fair to her and the Barefoot Taliban......

There are countless posts on here of owners facing hefty vets bills for diagnosis, drug treatment and even surgery. Remedial shoeing bills (head bangs the desk).

When all they need to do to take the horses pain away is to take the shoes off.

There are AT LEAST two horses from this forum who have been sent to Rockley farm following the BT banging the drum.

These two horses are doing just fine now.

They were facing a bullet before this.

Cptrayes personally saved and rehabbed a horse 24 hours from a bullet that even Rockley Farm didn't want to take on. He is having a great life now.

I'm not saying barefoot cures everything - but if I had a penny for everytime someone didn't do the right prep work and just pulled the shoes off and struggled on without doing the right things - then said, "I tried barefoot and my horse just couldn't cope."
I'd be a very rich woman.

If I had a penny for every time someone just said, "my horse could never cope without shoes." I'd also be a very rich woman

And while there could be a chance that a desperate owner is reading all this and another horse can be saved and be helped sound enough to enjoy life - then Cptrayes and the rest of us will carry on banging the drum - whether others like it or not


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## Changes (26 May 2011)

cptrayes said:



			Changes if your horse can cope with any dreadful and unexpected takeoffs and landing out hunting without studs then I am at a loss to understand your argument that he could not event without them. The argument is not that studs are impractical for hunting (and dangerous to fallers). That is a given. The argument is that if you can hunt without them then it's perfectly clear to me that you can event without them. And I have and other people do to higher levels than I did. 

A very very very small proportion of the total horses in this country are ever studded Changes. Studs are one of the few genuine reasons to shoe. If you want studs for competition, you need to shoe. Fine.

But I would love to see us stop shoeing the horses who it is blindingly obvious can manage perfectly well without.

I do know that there are thousands of horses who will do fine without shoes because I am aware of hundreds and hundreds of horses doing identical work who do manage perfectly well without them. Those include a high proportion of horses, including my own, where farriers have said that the horse will never cope without shoes. And not a few where the horse was so foot-lame even after meds and remedial shoes that the owner was told to retire the horse or put it down. 

If I have a 100% success record in getting 5 horses eventing without shoes and another 5 hacking stony tracks/jumping/dressage without shoes, and not a single failure including one whose feet could be bent with my fingers, then I am absolutely certain that if you gave me another 100 horses I would get at least 80% of them (I actually think 95% or greater, but for the sake of argument let's say 80) doing their current workload without shoes.

Do you really think that every pony in the country who is currently shod, who in the fifties would not have been seen anywhere near metal shoes, needs them?

Do you really think that every cob with great big solid feet with shoes on needs them?

Do you really think that every dressage horse being taken from its stable to a prepared arena to work and back again, with a bit of turnout maybe, needs them?

I don't believe that even you can believe that. And if you don't believe that then it follows that  there are thousands and thousands of horses and ponies in this country with shoes on for NO GOOD REASON.
		
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You are not reading what I'm writing, are you? You CANNOT stud for the variables in terrain out hunting - which part of that are you failing to grasp? 
So yes, the horse does run risks of slipping in deep mud. But, unlike on an XC course, you can choose to avoid or bypass terrain that might cause a problem. 
However, mostly,when you run on either XC or in a *grass *arena you can stud for the state of the ground which will generally be fairly consistent, and have already walked what course to take. 

I have already specified studs are not needed on a surface, so your dressage horse analogy is unneccessary and irrelevant. 

Shod or unshod, if it suits your horse then I don't have an issue with it, and and neither do I believe that every horse needs shoes. Again, read what I am writing! 

What I take issue with is your insistence that every horse can be without shoes, and I do not believe that in the slightest.


If you succeed with individual horses then I'm happy the horses are fine. I personally couldn't care less whether or not you shoe or stud, but I do get angry for horses that might well suffer at your insistance and pressure on posts that they can all be barefoot. 

It is people like you being so adamant of the notion that every horse can be barefoot that puts so many horses at risk by encouraging people to take shoes off when you have NO idea of their circumstances, experience or situation. 

I'm now just repeating myself here, as you clearly don't read what I'm writing before you reply, so I'll bow out. Just be careful what you might have on your conscience the next time you try and push a total stranger into having their horse's shoes off when they don't understand what they are doing.


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## Clava (26 May 2011)

Changes said:



			Just be careful what you might have on your conscience the next time you try and push a total stranger into having their horse's shoes off when they don't understand what they are doing.
		
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Just out of interest, what will be the consequences of an owner taking shoes off that would weigh heavily on someone's conscience?


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## Oberon (26 May 2011)

When they don't do the right background work or research. Continue to feed shiny packeted molassed feeds and have Rasping Rambo do the feet


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## Changes (26 May 2011)

Clava said:



			Just out of interest, what will be the consequences of an owner taking shoes off that would weigh heavily on someone's conscience?
		
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The case I quoted earlier, for ex? She was so indoctrinated by the barefoot ideology that she failed to see she and her insistence on keeping the poor sod barefoot was the reason her horse was suffering. She's by no means the only case I've come across. I hope her 'trained' EP cared about it. But then I doubt she even knew the damage she was inflicting. Because, having spoken to the current guru in the states who seems to train a huge proportion of these 'registered' trimmers, he doesn't give a toss - he's quite happy to send out people trimming on a week's course from his 'university' whilst accepting zero responsibility for the damage they inflict. 

I sent this man photos of various horrors done to horses feet ( one was PTS) under his name and his qualification, and he didn't care. He said he only issues a 'qualification' that they've attended a course, not a guarantee of competence. So he is not accountable for them. And neither are they answerable to him. 

Yet this person is held in high regard, and as a standard reference by so many barefooters.

So who does regulate these people? No-one.......

That's why I have huge concerns .


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## maggiesmum (26 May 2011)

Changes said:



			Just be careful what you might have on your conscience the next time you try and push a total stranger into having their horse's shoes off when they don't understand what they are doing.
		
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You might just want to check page 1 - this thread was started by someone who's horse was currently barefoot and had decided to shoe anyway. 
CP your conscience can sleep easily tonight!


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## Changes (26 May 2011)

maggiesmum said:



			You might just want to check page 1 - this thread was started by someone who's horse was currently barefoot and had decided to shoe anyway. 
CP your conscience can sleep easily tonight! 

Click to expand...

Yup, luckily the OP was sensible and made the right decision for her horse, despite pressure to do otherwise.


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## StrawberryFish (26 May 2011)

Does anyone who has a barefoot horse go barefoot themselves or their children? (and by that I mean no shoes or soft soled shoes) 
My children wear 'barefoot' shoes as I believe it is incredibly important for their foot health. 
Horse wise, if I were to get a youngster I would keep them 'barefoot' for as long as possible, but it's different if your horse has been shod it's entire life (as all my previous ones have) to suddenly take them off, and I personally would only do so with caution.
On an aside our mini shettie is barefoot and very happy foot wise


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## cptrayes (26 May 2011)

Changes said:



			You are not reading what I'm writing, are you? You CANNOT stud for the variables in terrain out hunting - which part of that are you failing to grasp? 
.
		
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I understand perfectly that you cannot stud for hunting. The fact that we do not stud for hunting demonstrates perfectly how unnecesary studs are for eventing. 



Changes said:



			So yes, the horse does run risks of slipping in deep mud. But, unlike on an XC course, you can choose to avoid or bypass terrain that might cause a problem. 
.
		
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I cannot choose to bypass terrain that the field master has led me through - I am on his heels, not pootling around at the back of the field. There is no deep mud or any other poor surface on BE cross country fence take-offs or landings, they are all prepared if they are not already on well drained land. All the more reason that studs are unnecessary.




Changes said:



			I have already specified studs are not needed on a surface, so your dressage horse analogy is unneccessary and irrelevant. 
.
		
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You seem absolutely fixated about studs Changes. The discussion at that point was not about studs, we both agree that if you want studs to compete with you have to shoe and that is a genuinely good reason to shoe, as I said. But the discussion by then was that you had challenged my assertion that there are thousands of horses out there are who are wearing shoes with no need. Dressage horses are some of those thousands, as are most ponies, most cobs, and most happy hacker horses.



Changes said:



			What I take issue with is your insistence that every horse can be without shoes, and I do not believe that in the slightest.
.
		
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Can you please point to me where I have stated this? I have repeated often that not every owner/horse combination can manage without shoes. Not all horses can manage without shoes either, but on the right diet, with the right exercise, and the right living conditions (all of which vary from horse to horse but which not all owners are able to provide) most of them can. 



Changes said:



			If you succeed with individual horses then I'm happy the horses are fine. I personally couldn't care less whether or not you shoe or stud, but I do get angry for horses that might well suffer at your insistance and pressure on posts that they can all be barefoot. 
.
		
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I do not insist that they can all be barefoot, I recommended this poster to have her horse shod if she could not restrict its grass intake, and she has done so and thanked me for my advice.



Changes said:



			It is people like you being so adamant of the notion that every horse can be barefoot that puts so many horses at risk by encouraging people to take shoes off when you have NO idea of their circumstances, experience or situation. 
.
		
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It is people like me who have now saved the lives of a number of horses which were to be put to sleep. I cannot help it if there are stupid people who allow their horses to be terribly sore. I state constantly that this is not acceptable, as I have on this thread. I am no more responsible for sore barefoot horses than I am for the army of horses crashing with laminitis because their owners allow them too much food.  Or for the lame creatures in shoes with badly balanced feet who you can see in the warm up of nearly every local competition that you go to.




Changes said:



			I'm now just repeating myself here, as you clearly don't read what I'm writing before you reply, so I'll bow out. Just be careful what you might have on your conscience the next time you try and push a total stranger into having their horse's shoes off when they don't understand what they are doing.
		
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If you are going to bow out, for that I am grateful  I read everything you write carefully but it would be nice not to have to read any more of it.

I push no-one to do anything and I challenge you to find any post where I have pushed anyone to do anything. I have nothing on my conscience, but I sure would have if owners had their horses shot because of navicular and I had not told them that there was another option.


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## Changes (26 May 2011)

Oh dear, that's some ego you have going on there. Goes with the territory, I suppose........ 

Best of luck, I just hope I've sown some seeds of doubt into the thoughts of those that you would otherwise have tried to bully into your way of thinking.


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## Jesstickle (26 May 2011)

Blimey cptrayes. I know you and I have not always seen eye to eye over the barefoot/shod thing but you're getting a right going over today! And actually I think you've been very reasonable in your posts too.

And as to the sweet itch thing, I've heard from the mouth of a vet no less, that sugar intake is suspected to have an impact on the condition in some cases.


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## cptrayes (26 May 2011)

StrawberryFish said:



			Does anyone who has a barefoot horse go barefoot themselves or their children? (and by that I mean no shoes or soft soled shoes) 
My children wear 'barefoot' shoes as I believe it is incredibly important for their foot health. 
Horse wise, if I were to get a youngster I would keep them 'barefoot' for as long as possible, but it's different if your horse has been shod it's entire life (as all my previous ones have) to suddenly take them off, and I personally would only do so with caution.
On an aside our mini shettie is barefoot and very happy foot wise 

Click to expand...

Co founder of UKNHCP Sarah Braithwaite uses barefoot shoes and credits them with solving her back problems. Other half of the other cofounder Nic Barker runs cross country  in barefoot shoes. I'll bet your kids love them  !


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## cptrayes (26 May 2011)

jesstickle said:



			Blimey cptrayes. I know you and I have not always seen eye to eye over the barefoot/shod thing but you're getting a right going over today! And actually I think you've been very reasonable in your posts too.

And as to the sweet itch thing, I've heard from the mouth of a vet no less, that sugar intake is suspected to have an impact on the condition in some cases.
		
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Cheque's in the post Jess !


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## cptrayes (26 May 2011)

Changes said:



			Oh dear, that's some ego you have going on there. Goes with the territory, I suppose........ 

Best of luck, I just hope I've sown some seeds of doubt into the thoughts of those that you would otherwise have tried to bully into your way of thinking.
		
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Well I always know I've won the argument when the poster resorts to personal insult Changes


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## Jesstickle (26 May 2011)

cptrayes said:



			Cheque's in the post Jess !
		
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Hehe. Well, as you were nice about my ridiculous lami ridden TB (vet confirmed what I thought despite them initially thinking I had gone bonkers) I thought I ought to speak up!


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## Changes (26 May 2011)

cptrayes said:



			Well I always know I've won the argument when the poster resorts to personal insult Changes 

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Hmmm .... truly, it was an observation? No more or less than you have demonstrated in reply.

But I'm guessing your response kind of proves my assessment.......


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## tallyho! (26 May 2011)

Changes said:



			Oh dear, that's some ego you have going on there. Goes with the territory, I suppose........ 

Best of luck, I just hope I've sown some seeds of doubt into the thoughts of those that you would otherwise have tried to bully into your way of thinking.
		
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CPTrayes does not have an ego...but you do. You go back on your words... you make things up and are very aggressive and not really making any sense with it. Which is why I think you are aggressive. Read it all back and I think you'd have to agree that YOU are the bully.

No barefooter on here has ever forced anyone into doing anything. What we have done is shared our experience. 

Thing is... I was once someone like you (except for the horrid bully bit) who couldn't imagine an unshod horse then had a problem which couldn't be fixed and I tried what convention spat upon... but now I have sound healthy horses. Without shoes. That does not mean to say I (or, we, barefooters) think ALL horses should be barefoot in the UK. I'm saying hey, it worked for me, it might for you? After all this is a forum where we can share things like this. You know, ideas that may work. If they don't, too bad but at least we are not saying go on nail more wedges on, cut the tendon, pts - we are just offering another chance. (Not the OPs horse, I think conversation moved on from a simple "shall I put shoes on?")

For anyone who has ever made the leap - that takes guts! To stand up to your vet, farrier, mum, dad whatever and say "no - I do not want to sever his tendon or resect his hoof".

Go on... mock us. Call us evangelists, taliban, we don't give two hoots because what matters is that the horses we save get us through the day... smiling and frankly that is all we need.

Well done CPT for carrying on with Changes and his/her ignorance. Hats off!


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## cptrayes (26 May 2011)

Gosh this is gonna cost me a fortune! Cheque in the post Tallyho 

Could'a sworn Changes said he/she wasn't going to write any more, must be going a bit senile


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## cptrayes (26 May 2011)

Just reread that and realised that it could be read two ways. I meant *I* must be going senile   Now I'm sure I am!


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## Tnavas (27 May 2011)

cptrayes said:



			Yes, that was "neglect", not "keeping horses naturally". They were left in an area where the forage was far too rich for their genetic make-up. New Forest ponies have terrible feet too. It does not tell us much about barefoot horses to study groups like that.
		
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Yoou obviously know little of the area they live in.These horses are totally wild, travel miles on pumice ground which is highly abrasive, live in the desert region of NZ where temperatures vary by extremes and in winter are under snow for much of the time. There are pockets of good grazing which any wild horse will take advantage of. 

They are not victims of neglect or not keeping horses naturally. No one owns these horses, they have evolved over the last century or so to their climate - but being barefoot and travelling constantly living on mostly very rough vegetation does not seem to have given them good feet.

These horses and ponies are mixtures of many breeds, some were army horses crossbreds, some UK natives and other european natives, some are escapees or stolen by stallions. The herds vary in different areas of the desert where a particular stallion has stamped his type on the herds. 

The Kaimanawa ranges cover 13000sq kilometres the horses have - If allocated on the basis of 1300 horses, the protected area provides some 64 hectares, or a little over 250 acres of land per horse. On the face of it, that area of land would appear to be more than adequate to permanently sustain a herd of horses many times the size of the Kaimanawa herd. That is until the altitude and the inhospitable climate of this rugged terrain is considered. In reality the native grasses in the area grow at an extremely slow rate and the exotic grasses which are gradually impinging on those native species, probably grow for less than 2 months of the year. In short, the country is rugged, the climate is harsh and the feed is sparse.
For more information - http://www.kaimanawa.com/history.shtml


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## Amaranta (27 May 2011)

cptrayes said:



			My horses are barefoot. Any old horse can be ushod, only a barefoot horse can do what any shod horse can do, but without shoes on 

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Sorry  but this is complete and utter rubbish, neither of my two riding horses are shod, they both hack, hunt and compete with no problems whatsoever and both have beautiful feet.

In an earlier post you also said that laminitis is a gut not a foot issue and in the main this is correct BUT concussive laminitis is not a gut issue but as the name suggests a foot issue.


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## Amaranta (27 May 2011)

Brambridge04 said:



			I am unable to take her off the grass. I do not have stable access and school is used by others so cant use it for a week to try it 

Click to expand...


Do not allow anyone to bully you into going barefoot, if you need to put shoes on your mare do so, some horses cannot cope and some can.  Mine are unshod but I would put shoes on in an instant if they needed them.


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## Amaranta (27 May 2011)

cptrayes said:



			I have it from real life experience and from posters on this forum. Last year I took on a horse who, to prevent him from being put down, had to be removed from grass. He came with the instruction to use sweet itch rugs (he came with two) 24/7 even when he was in the stable. He never seemed to be the least itchy with me and those rugs never went on him. His previous owner, when I told her, said that she was tearing her hair out with frustration at me because if I did not get the rugs on before he started, then he would rub himself as raw as a piece of beef. He had scars on his tail to prove that he had done so in the past. I live near water and cannot myself work outside at 4pm without midge repellent and a hat on. 

I was, to say the least, gobsmacked, so I posted on this forum to see if any other people had a similar case, to be told that there were lots. It is very common for sweetitch symptoms to be reduced on a reduced grass diet. Not many people remove a horse from grass completely, of course, but I'll bet my bottom dollar that there are dozens of itchy horses out there who would be completely free of sweetitch if they were on a dry lot and not eating grass. 

I don't think that the National Sweet Itch Centre has the full picture.  I know what I saw in front of my own eyes, and I hear what other people found to be the case as well.
		
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Hmmm anecdotal then, not supported by veterinary research.  You do have a habit of posting your opinions as pure fact, this is misleading at best and dangerous at worst.


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## touchstone (27 May 2011)

Evelyn said:



			Yoou obviously know little of the area they live in.These horses are totally wild, travel miles on pumice ground which is highly abrasive, live in the desert region of NZ where temperatures vary by extremes and in winter are under snow for much of the time. There are pockets of good grazing which any wild horse will take advantage of. 

They are not victims of neglect or not keeping horses naturally. No one owns these horses, they have evolved over the last century or so to their climate - but being barefoot and travelling constantly living on mostly very rough vegetation does not seem to have given them good feet

The Kaimanawa ranges cover 13000sq kilometres the horses have - If allocated on the basis of 1300 horses, the protected area provides some 64 hectares, or a little over 250 acres of land per horse. On the face of it, that area of land would appear to be more than adequate to permanently sustain a herd of horses many times the size of the Kaimanawa herd. That is until the altitude and the inhospitable climate of this rugged terrain is considered. In reality the native grasses in the area grow at an extremely slow rate and the exotic grasses which are gradually impinging on those native species, probably grow for less than 2 months of the year. In short, the country is rugged, the climate is harsh and the feed is sparse.
For more information - http://www.kaimanawa.com/history.shtml

Click to expand...

However in this veterinary research article http://www.kaimanawa.com/articles.shtml the pasture is said to be too rich:-

"The aetiology of the chronic laminitis described in this study is potentially linked to pasture-based nutrition. As Kaimanawa feral horses have unlimited access to pasture and browse through all seasons of the year, the importance of controlled nutrition for laminitis prevention is highlighted."  


As for the 'bullying into barefoot" accusations, as far as I have seen the poster has been supported in her decision to shoe by the barefooters and the aggressive and sarcastic/ridiculing posts tend to be from pro shoers in my experience. They certainly seem to be the ones who get more worked up about things. I don't  bother to post my experiences on the subject anymore due to the vitriol these threads create.


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## cptrayes (27 May 2011)

Evelyn said:



			Yoou obviously know little of the area they live in.These horses are totally wild, travel miles on pumice ground which is highly abrasive, live in the desert region of NZ where temperatures vary by extremes and in winter are under snow for much of the time. There are pockets of good grazing which any wild horse will take advantage of. 

They are not victims of neglect or not keeping horses naturally. No one owns these horses, they have evolved over the last century or so to their climate - but being barefoot and travelling constantly living on mostly very rough vegetation does not seem to have given them good feet.

These horses and ponies are mixtures of many breeds, some were army horses crossbreds, some UK natives and other european natives, some are escapees or stolen by stallions. The herds vary in different areas of the desert where a particular stallion has stamped his type on the herds. 

The Kaimanawa ranges cover 13000sq kilometres the horses have - If allocated on the basis of 1300 horses, the protected area provides some 64 hectares, or a little over 250 acres of land per horse. On the face of it, that area of land would appear to be more than adequate to permanently sustain a herd of horses many times the size of the Kaimanawa herd. That is until the altitude and the inhospitable climate of this rugged terrain is considered. In reality the native grasses in the area grow at an extremely slow rate and the exotic grasses which are gradually impinging on those native species, probably grow for less than 2 months of the year. In short, the country is rugged, the climate is harsh and the feed is sparse.
For more information - http://www.kaimanawa.com/history.shtml

Click to expand...

Then I have been misinformed about that study and I apologise, but I still do not see what relevance the study has at all to the keeping of horses barefoot in the UK. I do not myself advocate the wild horse model.


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## cptrayes (27 May 2011)

Amaranta said:



			Sorry  but this is complete and utter rubbish, neither of my two riding horses are shod, they both hack, hunt and compete with no problems whatsoever and both have beautiful feet.

In an earlier post you also said that laminitis is a gut not a foot issue and in the main this is correct BUT concussive laminitis is not a gut issue but as the name suggests a foot issue.
		
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There is a theory, to which I subscribe, that horses do not get concussion laminitis unless the foot function is already compromised. In addition to that, the wearing of shoes creates a much higher concussive force on the foot, so would those horses who have concussion laminitis have it if they had not been wearing shoes?

No-one disputes that there are other types of laminitis. Post-partum failure to shed the placenta, for example. Stress, cushings etc.  The discussion was about dietary laminitis in its early stages causing footiness in barefoot horses which can be masked with shoes - but should it be so masked?


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## cptrayes (27 May 2011)

Amaranta said:



			Do not allow anyone to bully you into going barefoot, if you need to put shoes on your mare do so, some horses cannot cope and some can.  Mine are unshod but I would put shoes on in an instant if they needed them.
		
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The OP has, at my suggestion and the suggestion of others already had the horse shod and made a point of thanking  ALL posters for our advice. She did not feel in the slightest bullied, and why would she, she wasn't.


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## cptrayes (27 May 2011)

Amaranta said:



			Hmmm anecdotal then, not supported by veterinary research.  You do have a habit of posting your opinions as pure fact, this is misleading at best and dangerous at worst.
		
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Tell me where in that quote that I have posted anything as fact that I cannot substantiate. And if you read the thread back there are posts from other people explaining that there is veterinary support for reducing sugar in the diet of some sweet itch sufferers, and that it is a disease which originates in a malfunctioning liver in some horses. Please read the thread if you intend to participate in such a forceful manner as to describe what I write as dangerous.

Now, do you have anything to actually add to this discussion?


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## Amaranta (27 May 2011)

cptrayes said:



			Tell me where in that quote that I have posted anything as fact that I cannot substantiate. And if you read the thread back there are posts from other people explaining that there is veterinary support for reducing sugar in the diet of some sweet itch sufferers, and that it is a disease which originates in a malfunctioning liver in some horses. Please read the thread if you intend to participate in such a forceful manner as to describe what I write as dangerous.

Now, do you have anything to actually add to this discussion?
		
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Ahh, I disagree with you so I have nothing to add?

The way you write your posts DOES indeed infer fact, you write things in such a way that the reader is led to assume this.  

Yes you did tell the OP to shoe her horse, but not after you had called her 'too sugar ignorant' to go barefoot, therefore implying that she was actually not good enough to become one of the enlightened.  You also inferred that she could not be bothered to take her horse off grass.  That was insulting to the OP and not a little patronising.

I actually agree with you on the subject of sugar (you might also want to consider starch too), the majority of leisure horses in the UK are fed far too much of it, and yes there IS anecdotal evidence that sugar in the diet can affect sweet itch, but it is just that, anecdotal, there is no hard and fast research on it and it is misleading to infer otherwise.

As mentioned, my own horses are unshod and carry out a workload that is probably harder than many leisure horses so I have no problem with anybody going shoeless, I do have a problem with those that are so evangelical that they seem to think that barefoot is a cure all, I do not deny that SOME horses have been improved or 'saved' (such an emotive word) but there have also been many shod horses 'saved' by shoes, not least those with laminitis.

Live and let live shoeing is right for some and wrong for others, just let people make up their own minds and stop influencing them with psuedo science.


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## cptrayes (27 May 2011)

Amaranta said:



			Ahh, I disagree with you so I have nothing to add?

The way you write your posts DOES indeed infer fact, you write things in such a way that the reader is led to assume this.  

Yes you did tell the OP to shoe her horse, but not after you had called her 'too sugar ignorant' to go barefoot, therefore implying that she was actually not good enough to become one of the enlightened.  You also inferred that she could not be bothered to take her horse off grass.  That was insulting to the OP and not a little patronising.

I actually agree with you on the subject of sugar (you might also want to consider starch too), the majority of leisure horses in the UK are fed far too much of it, and yes there IS anecdotal evidence that sugar in the diet can affect sweet itch, but it is just that, anecdotal, there is no hard and fast research on it and it is misleading to infer otherwise.

As mentioned, my own horses are unshod and carry out a workload that is probably harder than many leisure horses so I have no problem with anybody going shoeless, I do have a problem with those that are so evangelical that they seem to think that barefoot is a cure all, I do not deny that SOME horses have been improved or 'saved' (such an emotive word) but there have also been many shod horses 'saved' by shoes, not least those with laminitis.

Live and let live shoeing is right for some and wrong for others, just let people make up their own minds and stop influencing them with psuedo science.
		
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She did not seem to have the problems with my post that you have on her behalf, why do you feel such a need to fight for her? I stand by what I said and she has thanked me for my opinion. First of all the poster said that she was sugar aware, and then when questionned she said that the horse was on grazing 24/7 and that she had no facilities whatsoever to remove her from that grazing if it became necessary. For me, that is a person who is not sugar aware enough to safely keep a footie horse barefoot and she should shoe, which is what she has done. It is nothing to do with judgement on her as a person, it simply relates to the fact that if you have a barefoot horse which is going footie due to excess grass consumption, and you cannot reduce that grass consumption, then you have no option but to boot or shoe. She has chosen to shoe. Fine. 

I have never inferred that there is scientific evidence for the reduction of sugar leading to reduced sweetitch. Another poster said that her vet said there was "some" evidence". Not me. I simply described what I have seen with my own horse and what others then reported when I asked if anyone else had seen the same. What IS your problem with this???  What harm do you think it can possibly do if someone with a sweet itchy horse reduces its grass for a month to see whether it stops itching?  

You have no more proof that shoeing has saved any laminitic or navicular spectrum horse than I do that they would have been as well, or better, off without them. The scientific research that has been done on both was on numbers so small as to be statistically insignificant, without proper control groups. We have already had this discussion with a vet and every study she came up with was numbered at or below 10 horses, without shoeless control groups at all. There is no evidence whatsoever that those horses saved from laminitis and navicular spectrum lameness by shoes would not also have been saved without them. 

What I do know is that there are now dozens of horses which had been through the whole gamut of navicular spectrum treatments of drugs and remedial shoeing who were still lame and about to be retired or shot. They, including one of my own,  are now in full work without drugs. I call that a cure. I don't know what the definition for a cure is if it is not "in full work long term, drug free and sound".  I also find that miraculous, after all the years of being told that navicular was incurable. If my enthusiasm for that annoys you, so be it.  You'll wait until hell freezes over for me to stop trying to influence people to try a barefoot rehab before they have a much loved horse with pedal bone rotation or collateral ligament damage or navicular disease put to sleep.

I agree with you. Shoeing is right for some and wrong for others. I say so myself. Often. 
You are not disagreeing with me to put a constructive alternative point of view that we could all discuss, you just don't like the way I write things. If you don't like the way I write feel free to put me on ignore.


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## Serephin (27 May 2011)

*applauds cptrayes*


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## tallyho! (27 May 2011)

*applauds cptrayes*


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## Clava (27 May 2011)

tallyho! said:



			*applauds cptrayes*
		
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*stands and applauds too*


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## soloequestrian (27 May 2011)

More applause for cptrayes - where do you get your patience from??  I need to shop there.


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## MissMistletoe (27 May 2011)

soloequestrian said:



			More applause for cptrayes - where do you get your patience from??  I need to shop there.
		
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Agreed!


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## kickonchaps (27 May 2011)

My thoughts on the sweet itch front...

I don't presume to be an expert by any means, but would guess that keeping a horse off grass completely also means keeping it stabled and away from the worst of the midges, in which case it would be hard to say which thing caused the improvement, or if it was a combination of both.

Cptrayes, I'm guessing from what you post that you're also pretty clued up on nutrition and go for the natural basics, so the horse you mentioned earlier that used to rub itself raw until it came to you would presumably have had a change of diet as well? From my point of view, there's no point keeping a horse off the grass if you then go and stuff it full of cereals and molasses, not to mention the amount of c**p that gets sprayed on feed before it even makes it in the bag, so if the horse you had was sensitive to sugar in general (and if his itchiness was that severe, one could probably presume there was a heck of a lot of other stuff it couldn't tolerate as well) then the change of bucket feed could have had just as much effect as the grass restriction? I obviously know nothing about this case beyond what you've said, so would be interested to know the other changes you made besides restricting turnout?

Personally, both my competition horses have been shod, and while I've learned a lot about barefoot/unshod from these types of discussion, I freely admit that I'm not prepared to take the time out of riding and competing to give either of my horses the time they would have needed to potentially go barefoot (both had/have rubbish feet, though improved when I got them thanks to my genius farrier!) That said, I DO believe in the most natural diet possible, and my horse competes on a purely forage diet, so if I had a baby to bring on I'm pretty confident I've got the diet right, and I'd be prepared to give it a go


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## cptrayes (27 May 2011)

I guess you haven't had time to read back over what I wrote. I was told that the horse had to be rugged 24/7 inside a stable and out. The reduction was nothing to do with  him being stabled, he was never stabled for longer than half an hour a day.

His diet for the last nine months has been sugar beet (including molassed beet when he was with me), ad lib haylage and commercial horse and pony cubes. The change really was the grass, as has also been reported by other people. 

A good diet will help the feet whether you have shoes on or not. It is astonishing when you look at the bag labels how much sugar is added to feed these days. As has been stated by someone else, some horses are also sensitive to carbohydrates in general, particularly barley. These do appear to be the minority, though, when it comes to footie barefoot horses. Most of those are happily dealt with by removing their access to grass during daylight hours when the sugars are highest, but a small proportion (I have one) need more restriction than that. I muzzle mine at night. With him it is definitely grass. He is not fat and he has ad lib commercial ryegrass haylage all day and a nice breakfast of molassed sugar beet and commercial cubes.

There is just something about grass sugars which appears to be unrelated to total calorie intake that a fair proportion of horses simply cannot deal with, and it shows in their feet, but only if they are barefoot.

I completely understand that you do not want not to lose your competition season. I was forced to do my first horse or he would have been permanently lame and that helps focus the mind a little  It is rare to see someone in your situation with horses with difficult feet post without saying that your horses could not possibly manage barefoot. And it is great that you are aware that you would probably have to step down their work for a good amount of time while their feet improved in quality.  You have exactly the right atttitude to make it work with a horse with bad feet, if you choose to give it ago in the off season. 

Thanks for the support all you others guys, I can't afford to send any more cheques   It's lucky I touch type or I'd be at this PC all day. I have to admit I love a good argument too, so that helps. I have another few days of needing to be close to hand for a recovering invalid, which hopefully will coincide with weather in which I will actually want to ride my horses instead of just feeding them, and I won't be around as much. I hear a collective sigh of relief from some quarters  !!


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## tallyho! (27 May 2011)

Hope your invalid recovers soon cpt (hope nothing too serious either), and happy riding when you get chance! Don't go too mad though in case you slip or something... you know, not wearing shoes an all!!!!


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## cptrayes (27 May 2011)

Spotty bum, lovely! Appaloosa or Knabstrupper? Looks knabstrupper to me ? Very serious, but all over now bar the shouting, thankyou   Where DOES that expression come from ???


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## tallyho! (27 May 2011)

Reg. Appy PB but he's a bit of a kaleidoscope isn't he? To think it was Aug last year I was questioning his ridden life.... 

hmmm... bar the _____ yes, where does it come from... ?


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## kickonchaps (27 May 2011)

cptrayes said:



			I guess you haven't had time to read back over what I wrote. I was told that the horse had to be rugged 24/7 inside a stable and out. The reduction was nothing to do with  him being stabled, he was never stabled for longer than half an hour a day.
		
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Sorry, you're absolutely right, didn't have time to re-read and must have got muddled up with the comments later (half of which probably aren't even from you!!) about restricting grazing! 

I think horses and grass is a whole other thread, how many of us know well meaning owners of laminitics and fatties who turn their horses out on 'starvation paddocks' and wonder why they're still laminitic/fat? Take him off the grass for a week, the difference between today and 7 days ago is what he's eaten and there's your answer!! Just got back from hacking my TB who has gone completely loopy, to look at our bare paddock you would wonder why, but we've gone nearly 2 months without rain and all that grass has been doing in that time is making sugar, and not using it to grow because there's no moisture... but anyway. I think this thread seems to be reaching it's natural conclusion so will leave my ramblings there


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## MotherOfChickens (27 May 2011)

anecdotally: I know of two natives who developed SI after a photosensitivity problem caused by eating a certain plant (bog asphodel). After a few years of preventative SI measures they appear to be growing out of it. vets and breeder are convinced it was due to liver damage caused by eating this plant.

just throwing that in there.


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## Changes (28 May 2011)

tallyho! said:



			Thing is... I was once someone like you ...........
		
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I very much doubt it - I'm several decades past needing or railing against parental approval and I've always had an open mind.


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## cptrayes (28 May 2011)

Changes said:



			and I've always had an open mind.
		
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You  hide it well, I'll give you that


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## Changes (28 May 2011)

cptrayes said:



			You  hide it well, I'll give you that 

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But I've listened and looked and watched and seen, and mostly, it's a crock of......

See - that's trouble with your tunnel vision for what you perceive to be a 'new' idea, you think _you're_ open minded when in fact you've just been brainwashed. 

Never mind, you're just one of a couple of cults out there. I'm just trying to let other worried or less experienced people see just what cults you are.


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## cptrayes (28 May 2011)

I don't think it's a new idea Changes.  I refer constantly to the days when all sport horses had their shoes taken off during the closed season for their particular sport. Navicular syndrome was a rare disease then. Now we have no closed season and navicular syndrome is an epidemic. We used to feed horses straights, not mixes full of sugar. Laminitis was something people thought horses couldn't get. Now laminitis is an epidemic, and with it, people think that even ponies need shoes. 

It's not a new idea, and I have never claimed it was,  we just lost our way in the last 30 years.

If I have been brainwashed by a cult into a situation where I haven't paid for a set of shoes in 6 years even though I evented and now hunt, then it's a cult that I thoroughly recommend everyone succumbs to


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## Changes (28 May 2011)

cptrayes said:



			I don't think it's a new idea Changes.  I refer constantly to the days when all sport horses had their shoes taken off during the closed season for their particular sport. Navicular syndrome was a rare disease then. Now we have no closed season and navicular syndrome is an epidemic. We used to feed horses straights, not mixes full of sugar. Laminitis was something people thought horses couldn't get. Now laminitis is an epidemic, and with it, people think that even ponies need shoes. 

It's not a new idea, and I have never claimed it was, we just lost our way in the last 30 years.
		
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As I was heavily involved with SJ 30 years ago, I beg to differ. Navicular was the one most terrifying syndrome that everyone feared for their horses. It was the most common cause for PTS when the then treatments failed. 

And yes, taking shoes off and on was common then, but it still is today for turned away horses. 

So, are we back to talking about sports horses, (who need studs therefore shoes) or happy hackers, who have no closed season?


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## cptrayes (28 May 2011)

Well we have already established that sports horses do not need studs, though most riders want them and that's fine.

Navicular disease in showjumpers may have been common but it was far from common in ordinary riding horses (I was in a 60 horse livery for years and mine was the only horse there that got it). It is now rife to the point where some vets are beginning to use the word epidemic.

Of course turned away horses still have their shoes off. The point is that today horses are not routinely turned away. When there was a closed season for showing, showjumping, dressage and eventing they were. Those horses now compete and have shoes on all year round. 

In the old days many happy hackers never had shoes on in the first place, which is why I know that barefoot is not a new approach, just a rediscovery of what works for horses. Unfortunately the rediscovery has coincided with us having lost a lot of good things about the way we used to manage horses, like high fibre, low carb diets, proper exercise (not ten minutes in an arena in the dark and wet after work) and the combination gives quite a few people problems getting their horses working without shoes.

Can you tell me Changes, because I am intrigued. Are you against horses working hard hunting and eventing with no shoes on? And if not, does it not intrigue you how some of us manage it with horse after horse, and make you want to find out how we do it? 

Are you not intrigued by the number of horses that were recommended to be put to sleep, at the end of treatment with drugs and remedial shoes, whose owners found a way to get them back into full work without shoes? Does it not make you want to see more? 

Or is all that just a crock of **** too?


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## Changes (28 May 2011)

Specify particular questions for debate and I'll answer them. Otherwise, as you move the goalposts everytime, I'm fed up replying to you when you change tack on an issue. 

You just mentioned the closed season, not me, so when I answered that, you moved onto happy hackers. Which, IMO, didn't really exist in the way they do now 30 years ago.


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## cptrayes (28 May 2011)

Can you tell me Changes, because I am intrigued. Are you against horses working hard hunting and eventing with no shoes on? And if not, does it not intrigue you how some of us manage it with horse after horse, and make you want to find out how we do it?

Are you not intrigued by the number of horses that were recommended to be put to sleep, at the end of treatment with drugs and remedial shoes, whose owners found a way to get them back into full work without shoes? Does it not make you want to see more?

Or is all that just a crock of **** too?
__________________


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## Changes (28 May 2011)

cptrayes said:



			Can you tell me Changes, because I am intrigued. Are you against horses working hard hunting and eventing with no shoes on? And if not, does it not intrigue you how some of us manage it with horse after horse, and make you want to find out how we do it?
		
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1 - No, not against, IF, and there's the rub (sic) the horses really do cope. And I have unfortunately experienced people who tell me their horses are coping when in fact they are not, so forgive me if I don't believe the words of a total stranger on the internet when in RL I have seen people so convinced they were right about going barefoot that they blinkered themselves to the reality that their horses look sound because they are in fact equally sore on all 4 legs. I'm not saying this is your situation at all, but it's not uncommon.

Your intent to put your opinions (sweet itch being caused by liver problems, for ex) across as facts also makes me doubt you. 



cptrayes said:



			Are you not intrigued by the number of horses that were recommended to be put to sleep, at the end of treatment with drugs and remedial shoes, whose owners found a way to get them back into full work without shoes? Does it not make you want to see more?

Or is all that just a crock of **** too?
		
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Trouble is, it's a bit like the old furren rescue whose name can never be spoken, you only ever hear the success stories because they want to broadcast to the world how clever they are. There's not a load of posts saying I failed miserably and my horse died because I was dumb enough to buy into the barefoot nonsense. 

I said before, I have researched it - I have one very close friend who is a master farrier (he is also an examiner for new farriers), and I currently ride for a now retired farrier who is very much pro what the horse needs, either if it can or cannot go without shoes. Because the topic interests me, I discuss it. 

So yes, there will be success stories, but the nature of the barefoot beast followers is that they never admit that they are wrong. 

Those of us that shoe when neccessary, or don't if not neccessary, do what is right for the horse. Your push and belief that every horse can be barefoot is at best misguided.


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## Changes (29 May 2011)

cptrayes said:



			Well we have already established that sports horses do not need studs, though most riders want them and that's fine.
		
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To clarify - we have not established this at all. You might think that, but do not put words into my mouth. 

I firmly believe that to keep horses safe at a reasonable level of competition studs are totally neccessary, unless riding on an artificial surface.


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## Alyth (29 May 2011)

What a shame we haven't got a "like" button!!  I must also applaud cptrayes for her (I assume you are a "she"!!) patience and logical arguments.  Unfortunately sometimes we just have to bang our heads against a brick wall!! 
I would like to make a couple of comments....
restriction to grass does not have to = confinement.  The track system is amazing and enables horses and ponies to move a lot while searching for their feed.  Secondly grass varies a lot.  "Cow pasture" is not horse friendly.  Long, rank, unimproved, permament pasture is great.  Thirdly, there is a big difference between "unshod" and "barefoot trims.  There is heel length, "mustang" rolls, and bar consideration for a start.....Also barefoot trimmers do not rasp a flat surface to accomodate a shoe!!! And in this discussion I have not seen the words "hoof mechanism" mentioned once!!!  Thank you all for your reasoned arguments!!!  Alyth


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## amandap (29 May 2011)

Alyth said:



			What a shame we haven't got a "like" button!!  I must also applaud cptrayes for her (I assume you are a "she"!!) patience and logical arguments.
		
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Ditto.



Changes said:



			1 - No, not against, IF, and there's the rub (sic) the horses really do cope.
		
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Some obviously do.  Have a look at the hunting mileage on the left column on this blog and at some of the hunting videos. http://rockleyfarm.blogspot.com/

The big question for me is HOW/WHY do these horses cope when some others may not? We need to look at these and other horses being successful and learn lessons about management, diet etc. 
Or, we can slap a pair of shoes on and carry on regardless of any impact on the horse in the longer term. 
For me even if shoes are deemed necessary I'm sure looking at ways of improving a horses health is something we all want to do.


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## RolyPolyPony (29 May 2011)

Zuzan said:



			However many shod hooves have contracted heels..  Heels typically decontract when un shod and correctly trimmed.
		
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and contracted heels/frogs are prone to infections. My lad has VERY contracted heels - que him having VERY bad infections when he arrived.  He's been barefoot since i've had him (8months) and for around a year or so before i had him and his frogs are still very contracted from being shod.  My barefoot trimmer doesnt think they will decontract


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## RolyPolyPony (29 May 2011)

Changes said:



			I said before, I have researched it - I have one very close friend who is a master farrier (he is also an examiner for new farriers), and I currently ride for a now retired farrier who is very much pro what the horse needs, either if it can or cannot go without shoes. Because the topic interests me, I discuss it.
		
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ANY horse can go barefoot if the owners is willing to put in the effort.  Diet, trimming and work (are they the 3 - correct me if im wrong!) if all managed correctly, will allow any horse to go barefoot.  I've known several tbs with THE flatest most typical tb feet happily go barefoot.


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## Changes (29 May 2011)

amandap said:



			Ditto.


Some obviously do.  Have a look at the hunting mileage on the left column on this blog and at some of the hunting videos. http://rockleyfarm.blogspot.com/

The big question for me is HOW/WHY do these horses cope when some others may not? We need to look at these and other horses being successful and learn lessons about management, diet etc. 
Or, we can slap a pair of shoes on and carry on regardless of any impact on the horse in the longer term. 
For me even if shoes are deemed necessary I'm sure looking at ways of improving a horses health is something we all want to do.
		
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My horses are fit and healthy, thank you. 

I have looked at the site. As I said, I do my research. They are not successful with all their horses. I think it's an interesting concept, and great that they've done what they have, but it's not the 100% success rate it's claimed to be by some on here. And that is my point, really. 

This assumption that because we don't do 'barefoot', or 'paddock paradise' that somehow we are neglecting/damaging our animals is extremely insulting. 
We rehabbed a horse with navicular the conventional way, with shoes, careful work and a course of Isoxuprine and he carried on to event and SJ again - why is that so different?


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## Changes (29 May 2011)

KirstyLou said:



			ANY horse can go barefoot if the owners is willing to put in the effort.  Diet, trimming and work (are they the 3 - correct me if im wrong!) if all managed correctly, will allow any horse to go barefoot.  I've known several tbs with THE flatest most typical tb feet happily go barefoot.
		
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Wrong. What a ridiculous generalisation. Some horses can, some horses cannot.


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## touchstone (29 May 2011)

Changes said:



			My horses are fit and healthy, thank you. 

I have looked at the site. As I said, I do my research. They are not successful with all their horses. I think it's an interesting concept, and great that they've done what they have, but it's not the 100% success rate it's claimed to be by some on here. And that is my point, really. 

This assumption that because we don't do 'barefoot', or 'paddock paradise' that somehow we are neglecting/damaging our animals is extremely insulting. 
We rehabbed a horse with navicular the conventional way, with shoes, careful work and a course of Isoxuprine and he carried on to event and SJ again - why is that so different?
		
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I don't think any  barefooter that I know would suggest that a horse that isn't barefoot or on paddock paradise is being neglected?   Quite the opposite in that you do the best for your horse and if that means shoeing then fair enough.  It is simply a fact that horses that are on a lot of grass often struggle with going barefoot and so often some restriction is necessary.  Nothing whatsoever to do with an owner being neglectful.    I prefer to rehab without using shoes or drugs where possible, it worked for mine and so I have no need to resort to conventional methods.


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## Changes (29 May 2011)

touchstone said:



			I don't think any  barefooter that I know would suggest that a horse that isn't barefoot or on paddock paradise is being neglected?
		
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So are you disputing that the general barefoot mantra on this thread is that shoes damage feet, and they shouldn't be on grass to be healthy?

Do what you want to do with your horses, and if they are safe and sound then that is perfect. But don't insult those who do shoe their horses as some on here have done, with the implication being that we need to change to the 'barefoot' way of thinking. 

It's like arguing Parelli on here..........


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## foxy1 (29 May 2011)

Changes- Why do you think it is that some horses cope without shoes and others don't? What do you think makes them different?


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## Izzwizz (29 May 2011)

foxy1 said:



			Changes- Why do you think it is that some horses cope without shoes and others don't? What do you think makes them different?
		
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Hmmmn I'll ask my Farrier that one.  Probably due to the domestication and interbreeding of horses amongst many other reasons....


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## mystiandsunny (29 May 2011)

KirstyLou said:



			ANY horse can go barefoot if the owners is willing to put in the effort.  Diet, trimming and work (are they the 3 - correct me if im wrong!) if all managed correctly, will allow any horse to go barefoot.  I've known several tbs with THE flatest most typical tb feet happily go barefoot.
		
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I have one who came to me nearly crippled because someone had assumed the above, and she was a youngster not in work so they hadn't checked she was ok.  Congenital weakness in sole/horn (seen it in other progeny from same stallion, severity depends on horn quality passed on by the dam to mitigate it).  Sole paper thin, you could see the artery pulsing by just picking up the hoof.  Out at grass, moving around all the time, balancer for vits&mins.  Shod all round (initially with gel to help protect those soles), now happy as larry, sound and comfy.  Ok, it's expensive, but it's what she needs!

Everything else is barefoot except the one who had canker who still needs shoes in front to help correct the growth in the worst affected hoof.  Hopefully one day she won't need them any more.

And before you get excited about her - my TB is barefoot and has rock crunching hooves, so it's not like I don't give everything a chance!


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## Changes (29 May 2011)

foxy1 said:



			Changes- Why do you think it is that some horses cope without shoes and others don't? What do you think makes them different?
		
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Genetics. Why are some mammals predisposed to longevity and others not? Why can some horses jump and others not? Why do some have fine manes and others not?


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## Natch (29 May 2011)

Why is this thread so contraversial? Changes, you bring really interesting stuff to the table, but I honestly think you have misunderstood or are wildly generalising what people who are pro barefoot are saying.

To be honest, who's to say that barefoot can't work for all horses? Who's to say that some - many - horses can't cope in shoes all their lives with never a days lameness? The crux of the reason we are having this debate is that science is trying, but hasn't yet fully caught up with what are still relatively new theories on hoof care. In the meantime its becoming apparent that it never did much about existing theories, (shoeing) either 

So we rely on personal experience (obviously widely variable) and generally a collection of people's theories in order to decide.

Changes, what is the core issue that you object to in all of this? Because I don't believe anyone has criticsed you personally, or even made sweeping statements about paddock paradise etc. is it that people have beliefs which don't agree with your own?

I appreciate this post may come across as arsey. I don't mean it to be, but can't work out how to re-word it. I'm curious, not aggressive, but take me as you find me either way


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## amandap (29 May 2011)

Changes said:



			This assumption that because we don't do 'barefoot', or 'paddock paradise' that somehow we are neglecting/damaging our animals is extremely insulting. 
We rehabbed a horse with navicular the conventional way, with shoes, careful work and a course of Isoxuprine and he carried on to event and SJ again - why is that so different?
		
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That was not my intention but if you choose to be insulted that's your take. I choose not to be insulted by the many comments about about BF being a load of B****T and that I'm cruel not putting shoes on my horses. I used to but I no longer take comments personally when people are discussing their beliefs.

I prefer to learn and do what makes sense to me, I'm sure you do the same, we just see things differently. Glad you managed to rehab a navicular horse with shoes and drugs. Hope he/she has a long and happy sound life.

Re Rockley I suppose it depends what you mean by success. Many of the horses taken in for rehab are there as it's the last chance saloon where drugs and conventional treatment have failed. To me their success rate is incredible considering previous prognosis of many horses who go there for rehab.
To me success with a horse in severe pain is that horse being sound and free of pain. 
Mta... Anything else is a bonus to me.


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## touchstone (29 May 2011)

Changes said:



			So are you disputing that the general barefoot mantra on this thread is that shoes damage feet, and they shouldn't be on grass to be healthy?

Do what you want to do with your horses, and if they are safe and sound then that is perfect. But don't insult those who do shoe their horses as some on here have done, with the implication being that we need to change to the 'barefoot' way of thinking. 

It's like arguing Parelli on here..........

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Excuse me - but I'd like to see where I've insulted over anybody shoeing???

 Shoeing long term/incorrect shoeing does damage feet, and feet often are healthier without shoes, I don't even think any farrier would dispute that and most recommend a break from shoes at some point.   The fact remains that the type of grazing that many horses are on does have a negative impact on the horse so yes, grass intake may need controlling to keep a horse healthier.
I still don't see how those statements mean that it is insulting to suggest removing shoes or restricting grazing.


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## cptrayes (29 May 2011)

Changes said:



			Your push and belief that every horse can be barefoot is at best misguided.
		
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Why do you persist in accusing me of pushing and believing that every horse can be barefoot?  I have specifically stated that this is not the case.  You come across as really aggressive because you continue, time after time after time, to accuse me of saying things which not only have I not said, but where I have said quite the contrary.

Misguided barefooters are far from alone in believing that a horse marginally lame in all four feet is sound. That applies equally to the owners of shod horses, particularly ones which are bilaterally lame in both fronts, which I see at least one example of at practically every competition I go to. Misguided people exist everywhere, they are not limited to barefooters, more is the pity.

I would trust Master Farriers more if I did not own a horse who two told me would never work barefoot, because he was unable to stand to be shod if both fronts were off at the same time. He has now been barefoot and sound six years and he evented at BE Novice 10 months after they gave me that judgement. And also if I did not have a "navicular" horse who has now worked sound for naerly a year, whose farrier was completely unable to achieve that result with shoes and never attempted to achieve shoeless. Many farriers are unfortunately among those who have lost the art of keeping working horses without shoes and they are ill placed to advise on which horses can or cannot cope barefoot. Some, however, particularly those who are also members of UKNHCP are nothing short of brilliant.

I think other people have established that there is veterinary evidence that sweet itch originates in some horses as a liver disease, so I'm not sure why you bring that one back up again?

Thankyou for your answers, it is interesting to know your point of view.


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## cptrayes (29 May 2011)

mystiandsunny said:



			I have one who came to me nearly crippled because someone had assumed the above, and she was a youngster not in work so they hadn't checked she was ok.  Congenital weakness in sole/horn (seen it in other progeny from same stallion, severity depends on horn quality passed on by the dam to mitigate it).  Sole paper thin, you could see the artery pulsing by just picking up the hoof.  Out at grass, moving around all the time, balancer for vits&mins.  Shod all round (initially with gel to help protect those soles), now happy as larry, sound and comfy.  Ok, it's expensive, but it's what she needs!
		
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I am genuinely interested in this case and trying to learn, not cause trouble. PM me with your answers if you prefer.

Did anyone try removing that horse from grass completely before shoeing it? It sounds to me like a bad case of feet weakened by either EPSM or EMS, both of which are now being recognised in a surprising number of horses, and both diseases that were practically unknown until a few years ago. The hereditary aspect in this case could easily be that both diseases are genetic in origin and the stallion may well be a sufferer. As a stallion it is probably kept in most of the time, and if , so the worst aspects of intolerance of grass sugars in him would not show. Did anyone try the EPSM diet of high oil and high vitamin E with the filly?


The reason that the farrier of the rehab mentioned above did not believe the horse could go shoeless was because he had xrays showing his soles to be 3.5mm thick and his feet could be bent with your fingers. On the EPMS diet, he rapidly developed strong hard feet and can now work on any surface. He had been worked barefoot at 3 and 4 and was never comfortable on stones, so with him this started at around the age of that filly.


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## cptrayes (29 May 2011)

DISCUSS  :

Can all horses go barefoot?

No, some have medical conditions which I believe require shoes, like pedal bone fracture, keratoma or severe coronary band damage that requires stabilisation.

Can most horses go barefoot?

Probably not. Many people are not in a position to provide what their particular horse needs to go barefoot. For example, some horses could not hack out on stones at the weekend if they did not also get consistent levels of work during the week. Owners who work full time often cannot provide that and shoes are a good alternative for them. Some horses don't do well in wet turnout. Ditto shoes. There are many more examples.


Is "my horse just can't go barefoot" ever correct?

Probably, occasionally. But until you have perfectly balanced your horses diet by analysing every field he grazes and every batch of hay that is delivered, and balanced his work and living conditions to his own particular needs, and had him tested for insulin resistence, EMS and EPSM and Cushings, you just cannot tell whether your horse could work barefoot or not. 

This is one of the big sticking points between the "barefoot brigade" and the "barefoot brigade are evil/dangerous brigade".   

The best someone with a horse which is sore without shoes can usually say is "in the circumstances in which I have to, or choose to, keep him, my horse cannot work barefoot". And that is fine. In that case, shoe. 

There is no personal criticism implied in this. Lots of people, particularly in livery stables and working full time, simply haven't got the chance to give their horse what it would need to work barefoot. 

And THAT is why we keep on arguing with those of you who say "it depends on the horse". It does, but not in the way you mean it.

One big problem is  that for all the dozens of times I have heard "some horses can do it and some can't" I have only ever ONCE come across an example where the owner of a footie one has tuned the diet, the work, the turnout in the way a committed barefooter would.  

And the real frustration in these discussions is that we are working our socks off and  emptying our purses to find out how to tune our horses to enable them to work barefoot, as we believe nature intended, and yet when we talk about it we are attacked for "accusing" other people of neglecting their horses. 

We can't win, can we?


ps how can you tell it's raining  ?


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## tallyho! (29 May 2011)

Changes said:



			My horses are fit and healthy, thank you. 

I have looked at the site. As I said, I do my research. They are not successful with all their horses. I think it's an interesting concept, and great that they've done what they have, but it's not the 100% success rate it's claimed to be by some on here. And that is my point, really. 

This assumption that because we don't do 'barefoot', or 'paddock paradise' that somehow we are neglecting/damaging our animals is extremely insulting. 
We rehabbed a horse with navicular the conventional way, with shoes, careful work and a course of Isoxuprine and he carried on to event and SJ again - why is that so different?
		
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Who said that? Who insulted you? As far as I can see you have been the only one here dishing out the insults.


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## Jennyharvey (29 May 2011)

Lol i would be better to keep out of this discussion.  Might just watch from the sidelines lol.


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## cptrayes (29 May 2011)

Changes said:



			We rehabbed a horse with navicular the conventional way, with shoes, careful work and a course of Isoxuprine and he carried on to event and SJ again - why is that so different?
		
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I am reasonably certain that the stats for a successful return to previous levels of work unmedicated, even as a hack, with a shod and medicated rehab is less than 20%.

For Rockley Farm, the success rate with horses which are already among the 80% for which those treatments failed completely, with the horse not in work at all, is 80%. So 4 times as many, even though they were ones who had already failed to recover.
                                                      *******
A barefoot rehab at home with a trimmer or farrier costs less than conventional shoeing. 

A rehab with remedial shoes and medication costs thousands of pounds, unless you are insured where it may only cost hundreds for the shoes and insurance excess.
                                                      *******
Remedial shoes, heart bars or egg bars, are a total pain in the a*rse on a turned out horse and you are lucky to get through a week without one being pulled off. 

Barefoot horses never pull off  a shoe.
                                                       **********
How long did your rehab take to return to full work?

Many Rockley rehabs (and don't forget these are horses who have already failed with conventional treatment) go cross country jumping or hunting with their owner on the day they go to pick them up, generally between 3 and 4 months. My rehab did a farm ride with jumps at 14 weeks.
                                                      ***********


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## Changes (29 May 2011)

Our rehab took about 4 weeks to become fully sound, and was competing again within the same season. I didn't chart it. He was jumping Grade 'C' and Nov BHTA as it was then. The cost was nowhere near what you suggest. 




			I am reasonably certain that the stats for a successful return to previous levels of work unmedicated, even as a hack, with a shod and medicated rehab is less than 20%.
		
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Where did you find the stats for that, please? I'd like very much to see them. As I would the veterinary proof for liver damage causing sweet itch that supposedly materialised on this thread. 

I'm glad that you now admit that not every horse can go barefoot, because that's not what you said earlier on the thread. Thank you for clarifying what you meant.


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## Changes (29 May 2011)

tallyho! said:



			Who said that? Who insulted you?
		
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If the cap fits..........


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## Changes (29 May 2011)

touchstone said:



			Excuse me - but I'd like to see where I've insulted over anybody shoeing???

 Shoeing long term/incorrect shoeing does damage feet, and feet often are healthier without shoes, I don't even think any farrier would dispute that and most recommend a break from shoes at some point.   The fact remains that the type of grazing that many horses are on does have a negative impact on the horse so yes, grass intake may need controlling to keep a horse healthier.
I still don't see how those statements mean that it is insulting to suggest removing shoes or restricting grazing.
		
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Because your implication (again) is that those of us that shoe are somehow failing our horses and damaging them. That is insulting.


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## soloequestrian (29 May 2011)

cptrayes said:



			Can most horses go barefoot?

Probably not. Many people are not in a position to provide what their particular horse needs to go barefoot. For example, some horses could not hack out on stones at the weekend if they did not also get consistent levels of work during the week.
		
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Just to add a little bit to this - my hacking is very stoney (granite) forestry tracks, and I have one horse who is very happy on grass, roads etc but who doesn't like the stones.  He wears boots to hack, so he can be barefoot the rest of the time.  He probably only does 2 or 3 hours hacking per week, so it would be madness to feel that I had to shoe to manage that.  He schools well (and won a dressage test today!) with his bare feet.

I would argue that shoes do cause damage to feet, and I find it odd that people don't instinctively see that.  I can see that there are occasions where shoeing is a neccessary evil, but I can't see why it is done routinely rather than for short periods of time for specific situations.  The argument that some horses are shod for most of their lives with no apparant damage is a bit like arguing that some people can smoke 20 a day and live until the age of 90, so there can't be much wrong with smoking.

I will now leap back behind my parapet.


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## Changes (29 May 2011)

Naturally said:



			Changes, what is the core issue that you object to in all of this? Because I don't believe anyone has criticsed you personally, or even made sweeping statements about paddock paradise etc. is it that people have beliefs which don't agree with your own?
		
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I don't care what people believe as long as they are not harming their horses. My worry is the inexperienced persuaded by the forceful attitude of the barefoot evangelists to try and go barefoot, and keep their horse lame rather than stand up and say it's not working and their horse is sore. Because there are a lot of those. 

I don't like how some Paddock Paradise systems force the horse to walk a long way for water, for example. I've had this disagreement elsewhere. The horse should always have direct easy access to water.  
That applies especially with a sore horse whose shoes have just been removed. That is bordering on a welfare issue for me. 
Don't get me wrong, I'm not accusing anyone on here of doing that, but it happens and it's wrong. 

If you had seen the poor horse I referred to earlier you would have wept ........ all that pain because she couldn't bear to admit she was wrong and the horse desperately needed shoes........

The trouble is, there seems to be no middle ground from the barefoot side. For me, if you have a horse that is sound without shoes, then brilliant. There's no beef from me for that. Yet the barefoot people, as some are doing on this thread, continue to go on about how shoes damage horses. 

The horse has been domesticated, and if shoes are neccessary for him to be comfortable, then surely that is better than being sore? 

It's all a bit Emperor's New Clothes for me, I'm afraid.


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## cptrayes (29 May 2011)

Changes said:



			Our rehab took about 4 weeks to become fully sound, and was competing again within the same season. I didn't chart it. He was jumping Grade 'C' and Nov BHTA as it was then. The cost was nowhere near what you suggest. 

Where did you find the stats for that, please? I'd like very much to see them. As I would the veterinary proof for liver damage causing sweet itch that supposedly materialised on this thread. 

I'm glad that you now admit that not every horse can go barefoot, because that's not what you said earlier on the thread. Thank you for clarifying what you meant.
		
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Your rehab was unlikely to have had anything more than a minor strain of the DDFT or collateral ligament if he came sound that quickly. Research on cadavers and MRI of live horses has shown that most cases of "navicular syndrome" are actually a strain of the DDFT and most of the rest are collateral ligament damage. Radiographs of the navicular bone bear little correlation with the lameness of the horse, so even if yours had lesions on the navicular, current thinking would suggest that it is far more likely that he was lame because of a soft tissue injury.  

The cost today would be at least as much as I have said. Most insurance excesses are around £150, one vet callout is £70 without any treatment, higher in the southeast, one set of heart bars on the front only are £80. Trips to vets for stuff like radiographs/lameness workups where the diesel cannot be recovered on insurance would, for me, cost £25. Add it up!

Do your own research on the liver stuff Changes. A poster somewhere on this thread quoted a veterinary source but I'm b*ggererd if I'm going to spend the time looking it up again for you when you have already seen it once.

Can anyone else help me on the 20% recovery rate stats? It was quoted on here at some point but I don't know where to start looking for it.  I'll try googling it. 

I have ALWAYS said that not every horse can go barefoot. WHERE do you get that from? Quite honestly, it's beginning to make you seem more than a wee bit dense. It is so frustrating discussing things with you because you will keep on repeating things I have never said. If you research my previous posts you will find a lengthy one advising people just what horses are NOT suitable for barefoot. I wrote it about a year ago.


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## tallyho! (29 May 2011)

Changes said:



			I don't care what people believe as long as they are not harming their horses. 

Fantastic, we all agree then 

My worry is the inexperienced persuaded by the forceful attitude of the barefoot evangelists to try and go barefoot, and keep their horse lame rather than stand up and say it's not working and their horse is sore. Because there are a lot of those. 

Yawn! Zzzzzzzzz it's like a broken record in here

I don't like how some Paddock Paradise systems force the horse to walk a long way for water, for example. I've had this disagreement elsewhere. The horse should always have direct easy access to water.  
That applies especially with a sore horse whose shoes have just been removed. That is bordering on a welfare issue for me. 
Don't get me wrong, I'm not accusing anyone on here of doing that, but it happens and it's wrong. 

Are you infact a troll? I'm begnning to think you actually have a herd of mustangs on your estate and you're just bored

The trouble is, there seems to be no middle ground from the barefoot side. For me, if you have a horse that is sound without shoes, then brilliant. There's no beef from me for that. Yet the barefoot people, as some are doing on this thread, continue to go on about how shoes damage horses. 

Plenty of middle ground, background and foreground - if this isn't BEEF then I'd hate to see what is

The horse has been domesticated, and if shoes are neccessary for him to be comfortable, then surely that is better than being sore? 

Well, yes domesticated but hardly doing the work of a primary form of transport these days are they - or is it still horse and cart where you live?

It's all a bit Emperor's New Clothes for me, I'm afraid.

You're a bit Groundhog Day to me I'm afraid

Click to expand...

.


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## amandap (29 May 2011)

Changes said:



			I don't care what people believe as long as they are not harming their horses. My worry is the inexperienced persuaded by the forceful attitude of the barefoot evangelists to try and go barefoot, and keep their horse lame rather than stand up and say it's not working and their horse is sore. Because there are a lot of those. 

I don't like how some Paddock Paradise systems force the horse to walk a long way for water, for example. I've had this disagreement elsewhere. The horse should always have direct easy access to water.  
That applies especially with a sore horse whose shoes have just been removed. That is bordering on a welfare issue for me. 
Don't get me wrong, I'm not accusing anyone on here of doing that, but it happens and it's wrong. 

If you had seen the poor horse I referred to earlier you would have wept ........ all that pain because she couldn't bear to admit she was wrong and the horse desperately needed shoes........
		
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A horse shouldn't be made to walk for essentials when sore I agree, but it does depend to some extent on how sore. I mean do you think lame horses shouldn't be turned out as well? For horses with laminitis and thin soles etc. there are protocols to keep them comfortable, doing as you describe is not the fault of the system it's the responsibility of the owner surely. 




Changes said:



			The horse has been domesticated, and if shoes are neccessary for him to be comfortable, then surely that is better than being sore? 

It's all a bit Emperor's New Clothes for me, I'm afraid.
		
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I don't believe that horses genetic engineering by humans has changed a horses basic physiology or anatomy yet. Just because an animal is domesticated it doesn't mean it's needs change. I believe we are trying to fit horses into the lives we want for them. I believe it's time we looked more closely at what their needs truly are and make efforts to provide something more appropriate.
I include myself in this as well btw.

There is tremendous pressure on horseowners to conform all the time, the biggest thing barefoot has done for me is make me ask why rather than just do what everyone else might be doing or not doing.
If you have researched and come to your own conclusions and are happy with your decisions then that's great. What more can we all do. The fact that some of us don't agree is imo a positive as it keeps us all thinking.

Can't help on the stats cptrayes I'm afraid.


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## Changes (29 May 2011)

cptrayes said:



			Your rehab was unlikely to have had anything more than a minor strain of the DDFT or collateral ligament if he came sound that quickly. Research on cadavers and MRI of live horses has shown that most cases of "navicular syndrome" are actually a strain of the DDFT and most of the rest are collateral ligament damage. Radiographs of the navicular bone bear little correlation with the lameness of the horse, so even if yours had lesions on the navicular, current thinking would suggest that it is far more likely that he was lame because of a soft tissue injury.  

The cost today would be at least as much as I have said. Most insurance excesses are around £150, one vet callout is £70 without any treatment, higher in the southeast, one set of heart bars on the front only are £80. Trips to vets for stuff like radiographs/lameness workups where the diesel cannot be recovered on insurance would, for me, cost £25. Add it up!

Do your own research on the liver stuff Changes. A poster somewhere on this thread quoted a veterinary source but I'm b*ggererd if I'm going to spend the time looking it up again for you when you have already seen it once.

Can anyone else help me on the 20% recovery rate stats? It was quoted on here at some point but I don't know where to start looking for it.  I'll try googling it. 

I have ALWAYS said that not every horse can go barefoot. WHERE do you get that from? Quite honestly, it's beginning to make you seem more than a wee bit dense. It is so frustrating discussing things with you because you will keep on repeating things I have never said. If you research my previous posts you will find a lengthy one advising people just what horses are NOT suitable for barefoot. I wrote it about a year ago.
		
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I accept what you say about your horses, because I have not seen them, yet you can seemingly diagnose exactly what was wrong with a horse I used to have? 
I am fully aware of the changes in thinking over the years regarding navicular. Hence why it's no longer the death sentence it used to be, and why correctly done remedial shoeing works. 

You are also not the only person on the thread, there are others saying every horse can go barefoot, I am responding to those. As I don't hang on your every word, I haven't seen your post of a year ago. However, I did agree with you on here earlier when you said you didn't believe every horse could go barefoot. So I'm not sure why you are calling me dense for agreeing with you? 

If you claim these statistics, then it's up to you to prove them. Same as the liver damage causing sweet itch. Otherwise how can anything you say be taken with more than a pinch of salt?

Tallyho - you're not worth the keyboard time ........ 

I guess whatever I say is going to be twisted. I just hope this thread has made people think a bit more before they put their horses through attempting barefoot.


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## cptrayes (29 May 2011)

Changes said:



			I accept what you say about your horses, because I have not seen them, yet you can seemingly diagnose exactly what was wrong with a horse I used to have? 
I am fully aware of the changes in thinking over the years regarding navicular. Hence why it's no longer the death sentence it used to be, and why correctly done remedial shoeing works. 

You are also not the only person on the thread, there are others saying every horse can go barefoot, I am responding to those. As I don't hang on your every word, I haven't seen your post of a year ago. However, I did agree with you on here earlier when you said you didn't believe every horse could go barefoot. So I'm not sure why you are calling me dense for agreeing with you? 

I.
		
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I am diagnosing nothing, I am suggesting what is most statistically likely.

You have been replying directly to quotes of what I have written, repeatedly stating that I have said that all horses can go barefoot. Suddenly, now that I can point you to a thread a year old proving that I don't say any such thing, you say you are not addressing me. 

Good, at least you got the message at last.


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## Natch (29 May 2011)

As changes says, I hope the take home message is to do your homework thoroughly before any great change in lifestyle for your horse :grin: 

Ps the shoes damage your horses feet thing is well known by farriers, trimmers and laypeople alike, I think. Certainly the farriery texts recommend giving a horse a break from shoes where possible, to recover.  Thats obviously for a horse with no problems to keep it that way. Hickmans farriery says that no improvement may be made to the hoof with (normal) shoes, but damage is easily caused and that is where the skill on farriery lies; first, do no harm.


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## touchstone (29 May 2011)

Changes said:



			Because your implication (again) is that those of us that shoe are somehow failing our horses and damaging them. That is insulting.
		
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I have never said that anyone who shoes  is failing their horse or damaging them  - quite the contrary, and have recommended shoeing!!???


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## criso (29 May 2011)

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.2042-3306.2010.00081.x/abstract

This is the most recent study I think. Without a login I can only see the abstract but  I'm told that the detailed article breaks down to 78% of horses with ddft injuries and 83% of horses with collateral ligament didn't return to the previous level of work. Which I assume is where the 20% is coming from. 
Would love to see the whole thing if someone has a login to download the PDF.


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## cptrayes (29 May 2011)

Marvellous, thanks Criso. I'd like to see the whole thing too - anyone got a login to it?

And Rockley currently has about an 80% success rate with horses who have already failed with the conventional treatments. In a properly controlled study being overseen by a Professor at Leahurst, so not just anecdotal.

And people don't think that is a miracle worth getting evangelistic about. Well I do!


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## Natch (29 May 2011)

Criso, if you pm me your email addy I will see if I can get it when im on my laptop. Should be able to.


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## criso (29 May 2011)

Naturally said:



			Criso, if you pm me your email addy I will see if I can get it when im on my laptop. Should be able to.
		
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Will do, then I won't be quoting on hearsay


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## Changes (29 May 2011)

@ cptrayes - I just read some of your old blog. 
On that premise I really don't have any faith in your hypothesising so there is no point in continuing any discourse on here.


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## cptrayes (29 May 2011)

Nothing whatsoever has changed about your faith in me from reading my blog.

You had no faith in anything I wrote anyway Changes, irrespective of how well founded it is. I note that you aren't commenting on the research we found for you on cure rates for conventional treatment for horses with navicular syndrome, or the fact that there is veterinary support for liver malfunction being one cause of sweet itch. 

The horse you were probably reading about is sound, not on drugs, in full work and happy to be alive when he was 24 hours from being put to sleep by a desperate owner who could not bear to see him in pain any longer. He has been sound since twelve weeks after he arrived with me after two years of lameness and pain. I don't know what your problem is with that, and frankly neither he nor I could not care less.

What I do agree with you wholeheartedly on is that there is no point in you continuing your discourse with any of us who know how to cure a navicular horse or hunt or event barefoot horses because you simply don't have anything constructive to add to the discussion.


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## Changes (30 May 2011)

cptrayes said:



			Nothing whatsoever has changed about your faith in me from reading my blog.

You had no faith in anything I wrote anyway Changes, irrespective of how well founded it is. I note that you aren't commenting on the research we found for you on cure rates for conventional treatment for horses with navicular syndrome, or the fact that there is veterinary support for liver malfunction being one cause of sweet itch. 

The horse you were probably reading about is sound, not on drugs, in full work and happy to be alive when he was 24 hours from being put to sleep by a desperate owner who could not bear to see him in pain any longer. He has been sound since twelve weeks after he arrived with me after two years of lameness and pain. I don't know what your problem is with that, and frankly neither he nor I could not care less.

What I do agree with you wholeheartedly on is that there is no point in you continuing your discourse with any of us who know how to cure a navicular horse or hunt or event barefoot horses because you simply don't have anything constructive to add to the discussion.
		
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Again, more assumptions and reading my mind now. You're wrong, btw.  

It wasn't that horse on your blog that made me want to stop reading asap. I couldn't bear to get that far. It was another horse (amongst other stuff). 

Liver damage causing sweet itch - to clarify - there is still no vet proof about that put out there. 

Recuperation figures - there is the linked article (which I can't access in total) about returning horses from Navicular, but in the initial summary doesn't look as if it will back you up about the success rates. 
To relate them with your rehab figures you MUST compare like with like.

This is synopsis from the start of the article - the figures differ from yours.




			Results: Frequent abnormal structures included the navicular bone, the deep digital flexor tendon, the navicular bursa and the distal interphalangeal joint. Thirty-four of 56 horses (60.7%) failed to return to previous level of exercise due to persistent or recurrent lameness or owners' decision to decrease the horse's athletic level; however, 11 horses (32.3%) were being used for light riding. Prognosis for horses with concurrent deep digital flexor tendon, navicular bone and navicular bursa lesions was worse than horses with individual lesions. Deep digital flexor tendinopathy was strongly associated with persistent or recurrent lameness.
		
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In effect, 23 horses out 56 returned to work of some level. That's more than 20%.
One person's definition of return to full work varies from another, so unless the two studies are scientifically stood side by side, comparison is impossible. 

I have every right to post, and whilst you might not think it constructive, because I am questioning your statements, you don't own the topic. 

Finally, and I do mean it this time, I can't discuss with you, because you use notions as truth, sidestep and put words into my mouth. 

No doubt you will try and come back with some other theory presented as fact, which is essentially what made me doubt you to start with. 

I'll leave you with the last word on this. I expect you won't be able to resist


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## Mitchyden (30 May 2011)

I'm afraid Changes that you don't necessarily need vet proof to prove anything! 
My youngster was permanently tripping badly last year and I had a series of tests, nerve blocks, xrays, bone scans to find out why she was having this problem.
In the snow I took her shoes off and have been riding her barefoot ever since. She's never tripped once!!
The vets at The Royal Veterinary Clinic were gobsmacked that she suddenly stopped tripping but of course they still think they are right and still want me to have further tests. Why? 
I could of course put shoes back on to prove the point but why should I? I know what stopped her from tripping and it's about time that vets realised that sometimes the diagnosis is very simple!!


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## cptrayes (30 May 2011)

You keep promising us that you will stop writing, Changes, and you keep on letting us down 

No-one has stopped you trying to post, that is just your latest unfounded accusation.

Do, please, tell me what is on my blog that you find so distasteful, otherwise I have no option but to guess, do I?

Are you unable to bear the fact that I tie a horse down in a lorry when I travel him to prevent him damaging himself? For using draw reins to teach a baby not to buck and smack his neck into my face on a canter strike off? For having a blind horse put down? That I do not think it is unacceptable to wallop a badly behaved horse? 

Do enlighten me. 

If anyone else wants to see what Changes is so upset about that she cannot bear to read it, the address is smartiesdiary.blogspot.com

Changes, a discussion is where one person makes a point and the other person counters it, often adding other elements to further the discussion. It is not just "one person asks a question and the other answers it". You say you cannot have a discussion with me because I "sidestep", when I do no such thing. I do not step away from anything which I previously wrote (unless I was wrong when I say so freely), I do not change direction (unless I am wrong when I say so freely) I simply add to the previous argument to show you why I think you are wrong. That IS discussion. 

You're right of course, I can never resist the last word, but I'd be happy to have the answer to my question as to what you find so upsetting on my blog that you cannot bear to read how I managed to save a horse 24 hours from being put to sleep with a barefoot rehab. It's a shame you didn't get that far, you might actually have learnt something.


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## criso (30 May 2011)

Got the detailed study and makes interesting reading Only had a quick look so what jumps out is.

This was carried out using phone calls and questionnaires to owners.  Criteria was working at the same level as previously as it was felt this was less open to interpreation.

This was a study on foot pain and with MRI's leading to better diagnosis these can be split into different types which greatly influences the outcome.
There is a table that breaks  down the type of injuries and recovery rate which I am wary of posting as it stands as in case of copyright issues.

However summary

The figures I quoted before are correct though the percentage for collateral ligament injury is for moderate to severe with 16.6% making a full recovery, mild enlargement has 0% successful outcome making the average for all level collateral ligament injuries lower. If you average them it comes to 11%

DDFT injuries have a 21.8% return to previous level of work especially when combined with other problems and this study also refers to a Sue Dyson study from 2005 in which combined ddft and navicular bone lesions had a success rate of 5%.

Navicular bone issues fare better with successful  outcomes between 20% and 42% depending on the exact nature and location.

Mild Navicular bursa and Digital tendon flexor sheath injuries fare best with success rates of 50%.



Couple of quotes 


"One of the limitations of the study was the lack of a control
group. Although our study provides useful prognostic information
for horses with foot pain treated with corrective shoeing, rest and
rehabilitation and intrasynovial anti-inflammatory drugs it is
impossible to draw conclusions regarding any effect of this
recommended protocol without examining a group of horses with
similar spectrum and severity of lesions with no treatment."

So we have no  idea if chucking them out in a field and forgetting about them for a year would have had the same outcome.

"In conclusion, this study demonstrates that horses with foot
lesions managed with corrective shoeing, rest and rehabilitation,
and intrasynovial anti-inflammatory medication have a guarded
prognosis for long-term soundness. There is no apparent
association between clinical parameters and outcome; however, the
presence of a deep digital flexor tendinopathy influences long-term
prognosis for soundness."


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## amandap (30 May 2011)

Mitchyden said:



			I'm afraid Changes that you don't necessarily need vet proof to prove anything! 
My youngster was permanently tripping badly last year and I had a series of tests, nerve blocks, xrays, bone scans to find out why she was having this problem.
In the snow I took her shoes off and have been riding her barefoot ever since. She's never tripped once!!
The vets at The Royal Veterinary Clinic were gobsmacked that she suddenly stopped tripping but of course they still think they are right and still want me to have further tests. Why? 
I could of course put shoes back on to prove the point but why should I? I know what stopped her from tripping and it's about time that vets realised that sometimes the diagnosis is very simple!!
		
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Great story and so so familiar to me on Forums like this. Well done for listening to your horse, it certainly seems tests are totally unnecessary as the 'problem' has resolved.


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## cptrayes (30 May 2011)

Mitchyden said:



			I'm afraid Changes that you don't necessarily need vet proof to prove anything! 
My youngster was permanently tripping badly last year and I had a series of tests, nerve blocks, xrays, bone scans to find out why she was having this problem.
In the snow I took her shoes off and have been riding her barefoot ever since. She's never tripped once!!
The vets at The Royal Veterinary Clinic were gobsmacked that she suddenly stopped tripping but of course they still think they are right and still want me to have further tests. Why? 
I could of course put shoes back on to prove the point but why should I? I know what stopped her from tripping and it's about time that vets realised that sometimes the diagnosis is very simple!!
		
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Mitchyden if you check out any barefoot forum or barefoot blog you will find that immediate or almost immediate cessation of tripping is very, very widely reported. 

I also laugh at people always wanting scientific evidence. There is no statistically valid scientific evidence for remedial shoeing , or for many treatments used by vets. Take isoxuprine, used on Changes' horse, for example - we were told by Alsiola who posts  on this forum and is a vet that the clinical evidence for the success of isoxuprine is very, very weak.  I know a homeopathic vet. NO homeopathic treatment can be scientifically proven. 

Then there is aspirin. Since the earliest records, willow bark has been chewed as pain relief. That's because it is high in salicylic acid. What's salicylic acid? Aspirin! People do not need scientific evidence to know when something works. Anecdotal evidence is not invalid simply because it is anecdotal. The anecdotal evidence of willow bark chewers has saved many a person from pain over the centuries.


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## cptrayes (30 May 2011)

criso said:



			Got the detailed study and makes interesting reading Only had a quick look so what jumps out is.

This was carried out using phone calls and questionnaires to owners.  Criteria was working at the same level as previously as it was felt this was less open to interpreation.

..........

So we have no  idea if chucking them out in a field and forgetting about them for a year would have had the same outcome.
		
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Thanks Criso that's great.

One of the Rockley rehabs was included in this study or another done in  the same way, and her comments on it on the UKNHCP forum were interesting. She was asked to rate her own horse's soundness on a scale of 1 to 5. There was no objective veterinary assessment at all, they just took her word for it. How this would skew results I am not sure, but I suspect most people like to believe that their horses are sounder than they are. Given that most of the study (possibly all except her) were shod, this would make the result even worse.

Secondly, we need to be sure we are comparing like with like. The Rockley rehabs, my own, and most of the others that I know of return to full work, hunting and jumping. I rarely hear of a shod rehab doing better than "he is is full work but I am careful what I do with him on hard ground". That, for me, is NOT a return to full work. 

For me, your last sentence says it all. I think it's worth repeating:

"we have NO IDEA if chucking them out in a field and forgetting about them for a year would have had the same outcome."

There was a study done comparing recovery rates under different treatments. All the horses had their shoes taken off in order for them all to be judged on a level playing field. All the horses improved to some extent. No-one connected with the study made the connection that the only thing all those horses had in common was that they had no shoes on.


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## criso (30 May 2011)

Very true about how you can misinterpret. When frankie first went lame and was being remedially shod I starting taking pictures which I hoped which show improvements. Farrier and vet raved about how much his feet were improving.
Forgot about these until he went barefoot and his feet were being tracked as part of the research project at rockley when I dug them out. They clearly showed feet getting worse and worse, heels underrunning and contracting despite the best attempts of my farrier.

I look at the study and think with damage to the ddft, dsil  and collateral ligament in both feet, statistically I shouldn't be able to ride him never mind the jumping I've been doing.


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## tallyho! (31 May 2011)

criso said:



			Very true about how you can misinterpret. When frankie first went lame and was being remedially shod I starting taking pictures which I hoped which show improvements. Farrier and vet raved about how much his feet were improving.
Forgot about these until he went barefoot and his feet were being tracked as part of the research project at rockley when I dug them out. They clearly showed feet getting worse and worse, heels underrunning and contracting despite the best attempts of my farrier.

I look at the study and think with damage to the ddft, dsil  and collateral ligament in both feet, statistically I shouldn't be able to ride him never mind the jumping I've been doing.
		
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I never took any 'remedial' shoeing photos the three years he was remedially shod but started taking 'barefoot remedial' photos. I do remember that his hoof just got worse and worse and in the end was told either an op to cut the tendon or resection would be the only thing to do. He'd be on boxrest for 9 months minimum. Lucky I came across Pete Ramey who is also a farrier and some of his farrier friends...

I've shown this before but this is just after vet pulled shoes and 7 months into barefoot. The whole time in recovery period/transition he lived out 24/7 with no form of grass limitations, just him and his mates in about 4 acres in a hilly paddock through all that frozen weather we had. I have kept a log of sole & side plane views after each trim but this is just for a comparison. Note the white line seperation (vet called it seedy toe) and the "box foot" (contracted heels). I started riding him again in January with no boots or anything. It's the same horse, just his feathers had grown a bit over winter.


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## criso (31 May 2011)

Actually that would be my piece of advice for anyone with concerns about hoof health, take pictures. I do it every time the farrier visits. Worried about whether putting shoes on will have an effect, compare 6 or 12 months down the line. Trying remedial treatment do the same.  And don't just take front and side but take pictures of the bottom of the foot so you can see the frog and heels. I have the experience of everyone thinking something is working because that's what they expect/hope will happen but the photographs telling a different story.


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## Natch (31 May 2011)

Agreed photos are a good idea.


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## Alltheprettyhorses (31 May 2011)

Apologies if this has already been thrashed out elsewhere but this thread is SOOOO long i think I might be dead before I get through it all.  I've only recently started paying attention to the whole barefoot debate and at the moment, I like what I'm hearing.  Regarding the problem of not being able to stud up for competition - surely you really only need to stud behind and most foot related lameness problems are in front.  Why not just put back shoes on?


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## tallyho! (31 May 2011)

Hi Alltheprettyhorses, welcome. Hope you enjoy H&H as much as I do. 

Why not just put back shoes on? Well, that is a logical observation and I can see where you are coming from, but ime unshod horses don't need studs and they are better at balancing anyway and have better proprioception which helps in comp. In my village, it's about 40:60 shod:unshod (barefoot) horses and my neighbour on Monday came 2nd in regional ODE in the rain when lots of shod competitors called it a day after first few fences. The winner was shod and had studs all round. Not bad though for no shoes at all eh?


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## cptrayes (31 May 2011)

Alltheprettyhorses said:



			Apologies if this has already been thrashed out elsewhere but this thread is SOOOO long i think I might be dead before I get through it all.  I've only recently started paying attention to the whole barefoot debate and at the moment, I like what I'm hearing.  Regarding the problem of not being able to stud up for competition - surely you really only need to stud behind and most foot related lameness problems are in front.  Why not just put back shoes on?
		
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I think I'd be concerned about anything that tipped a horse more onto his forehand. A set of shoes plus a bit of foot growth on a big horse would make his back legs about half an inch longer than they should be and that could be just enough to tip more weight onto the front ones. 

I also found that they were completely unnecessary. I did Henbury after a night of rain once, and the competitors coming off the course were warning each other about how slippery it was. Mine, who had often slipped in shoes with studs, (I have a bad one on video on a perfect showjumping arena at Chatsworth) did not slip once.


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## Alltheprettyhorses (31 May 2011)

Thank you - how kind! 

Yes, indeed that's a very good result.  I don't like front studding - i think it's stupidly dangerous. The reason I made this suggestion was that I noticed the question arising at some point way back in the thread and I thought that might be a reasonable compromise for those who were wedded to their studs! Has anyone any experience of horses being shod behind only?


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## cptrayes (31 May 2011)

Photos are great! Typical navicular rehab part way to becoming sound:


http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_IaGqwoQlnmA/S7cj67-FVEI/AAAAAAAAApQ/MLNzOWsGrWY/s1600/PICT0153.JPG

With an event line so huge that you could balance a craft knife on it.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_IaGqwoQlnmA/S7cjdvnNbBI/AAAAAAAAApA/Ia88PPHDMYo/s1600/PICT0160.JPG

I'll be "some people" think I stuck it there with blue-tack    

I just heard that this horse won best novice Iberian and best in Championship at Warrington show yesterday! Not bad for a horse 24 hours off being put to sleep just over a year ago by a caring owner because of the pain he was still in after having been treated with remedial shoes, adequan, tildren and hyaluronic acid


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