# Has anyone taken a failed sheep dog as a pet?



## sam-b (15 July 2013)

How did it settle into home life?  Went to look at a dog n in the rescue Centre yesterday and the one we went to see appears not to be suitable as he can be snappy at other dogs?  He had lived with others previously but apparently it's now snapping.  I really wanted to give him a home but I am a bit worried as we have 3 already and would hate for him to meet them  and be fine then a week later all he'll break loose.  They suggested another dog instead as he gets on well with b other dogs.  He is a 2 year old failed sheepdog and is apparently  struggling with life in kennels (and he is staying himself thin) 

Its not known whether he has lived in a house before.  He seems really sweet  though  he would go to flyball and ability of he enjoyed it with my bitch.


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## sam-b (15 July 2013)

Arghh stupid predictive text and I can't edit on my phone!  I meant all hell breaking loose with the one we actually went to view and this one is stressing himself thin


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## HazyXmas (15 July 2013)

We got a Collie bitch from a rescue center six years ago now. Don't know where she come from as she'd already had four homes by the time she came to us, she was just coming up for six months old.

It appeared that she'd spent a large part of her young life in kennels & it did take quite a while for her to settle into home life. She was sweet but not affectionate, didn't like being touched or stroked. Luckily we have an elderly cat & that became 'her job'. If she wasn't out being walked or with me at the yard, she was rounding up the cat, even though cat spends 90% of it's life asleep, it still occupied the daft dog.

We still have her & she is still as mad as a box of frogs, but now very loving & cuddly.

I think that you will be fine if you have had Collie's before. They do need something to do, fly ball & agility would be great.

Good luck, hope that you can give him a home.


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## Ranyhyn (15 July 2013)

We don't have working dogs, however from the ones I've seen you could be looking at an under socialised, un housetrained, not lead trained quick thinking work machine worst case scenario. Best case scenario-none of those! It's really as good/difficult as the old owner I'd say. Alec is your man and also maybe never say never, she had collies I believe


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## sam-b (15 July 2013)

Well I spoke to the rescue again today as we are in the process of moving house , so really wouldn't want to take him until we are in,  but they can't hold him (offered to pay him fee plus money for him to stay there) but they are unable to keep him as they want the kennel space so will need to see if he is still there in a couple of weeks


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## hayinamanger (15 July 2013)

I have a 7 year old collie bitch, she was given to me at 6 months by a farmer as she would not go near the sheep.  She is a sweet and gentle girl and would be the most perfect solo pet.  I have 3 terriers as well and she constantly works them (if there was a competition for terrierdogs, she would be a champion) marks them, rounds them up and would run into/under any vehicle in her mission to get there first.  She needs to be fed separately as she will show aggression to them.

It makes life a bit difficult at times, especially for the terriers, and, with hindsight, I would not do it again.


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## CorvusCorax (15 July 2013)

Taken from a link from Agilitynet, the article I now cannot find, but here is an excerpt:

*Because they are very sensitive to movement, any fast movement that they cannot control can be very disturbing to them. No wonder so many Border Collies hate traffic.

Collies need to have very acute hearing to hear and interpret a shepherd's signals at a great distance, but sheep farms are generally quiet places and their sensitive hearing does not cause them problems. Urban and domestic life bombards our dogs with noise and this can cause them extreme stress. Be aware of this and if necessary protect your dog from excessive noise. Speak quietly to your Collie, he doesn't need you to shout at him.*


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## lizness (15 July 2013)

Not as a pet but I have attempted to train a failed sheepdog. Dog lives on OH'S farm and had been tried to work but failed, didn't do anything. He has absolutely no instinct with sheep, is think as anything. He now kind of heels, sits, stays runs off lead etc. However he still lives in a kennel. His main purpose in life is playing with my spaniel, which he loves. 
I think it really depends on the dog. I have known 4 or 5. One absolutely lived to work would have made an awful pet, one I would never trust snappy, very driven dog, OH's present dog soppy as owt, got more driven with age, lives to work. One above, one other kinda failed which as with one mentioned first would just ****** off if you raised your voice a bit much.
I would never choose one as a pet as they are far to driven.


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## BWa (15 July 2013)

Yes, got one aged 2 who was heading to Skipton sheepdog sales. He just wanted to chase and had no herding instinct. There was no out run just a flat out run to the nearest sheep. Which he did on his first day home with the neighbour's sheep! He was very wary of men and nervous of everything and a skinny little thing. We werent on a farm but did have a 6 acre field so he had plenty of space to run. He was awful on a lead but much better with a halti, we went down the route of ignoring bad behaviour and making a big fuss of the good as he wasn't food orientated at all. He did obedience and agility like demon and was good with most dogs until a Scotty went for him one day and hasn't been trusted since with unknown dogs. He is now 13 and an old, woolly bear. He has been devoted to my mum from day one and is a very sweet old man. My little niece plays hairdressers with him. 
He had a bad turn last autumn and the appointment was made but he picked up too quickly and the vet said to give him another chance but his time is passing now and he will leave a huge hole in all our hearts when his time is up. One in a million.
Sorry for the gushing! 
Anyway- we had routine, my mum didn't work so was around a lot, 4 walks a day and lots of love. I would now never be without a collie, they are something else.


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## Adopter (16 July 2013)

My border had a great time this afternoon.  We live at the top of a long drive so although he is a car at her he does not see many.

This afternoon farmer came to round up sheep to fly treat them, dog got into field as well and was chasing the quad bike so well that the sheep ran straight into the pen to get away from him.

I have rehomed border collies that were farm dogs successfully, they need time and understanding but the reward is a   great dog.


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## Dry Rot (16 July 2013)

I think someone ought to point out that a working sheep dog that cannot defend itself is not considered to be a lot of use. 

So they are a breed that is bred to bite. I will now retreat back to my woodshed. Just thought this worth a mention as no one else seems to have said it and I wouldn't want a child to get hurt. 

(Posted by an experienced dogman who has been bitten by more sheep dogs than any other breed, including an international champion and TV star!).


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## cptrayes (16 July 2013)

I've known a string of working sheep dogs owned by two farming families. One has the dogs outside. One has the dogs live with them. Of the ten or so that I've handled, all have been affectionate dogs that liked attention and I've never been nipped, never mind bitten. They are terribly active, intelligent dogs though, and can get problems if not kept occupied. The daughter of one family has one that doesn't work that is practically OCD about dust motes in the air.

Dry Rot I'm really confused?  What are working border  collies bred to defend themselves against?  Sheep don't generally bite and the dogs don't go for walks in the park and meet other dogs and no farmer wants his pair of dogs fighting each other?


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## lexiedhb (16 July 2013)

My friend had one- was utterly petrified of sheep- not much use to a Welsh farmer. This dog was AMAZING- the go anywhere do anything type- great with kids, other dogs, cats, bunnies old people everything.  Went on trains/buses, was never a bother. Proper dog of a lifetime. They are all different.


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## MurphysMinder (16 July 2013)

Interesting you say that Dry Rot.  The only dog I have ever had who I could not trust with my children was a working sheepdog (though not an ex working one).  In his defence he had been in rescue since around 6 months old (given up for snapping at his owners), and we took him on , or rather my ex did, as he wasn't coping in a kennel, had shredded his paws running up and down the run.  He improved a lot with us but was always unpredicatable, and when ex left, leaving the dog, I made the decision to rehome him to friends without children.  He proved to be a lovely dog for them so all ended well,


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## CorvusCorax (17 July 2013)

One of my trainers has always said that some sheepdogs (mostly farm dogs as opposed to family pets) are 'sneaky biters'. IE it's not apparent that you are about to be bitten, it just happens and they retreat, or they will do it while your back is turned etc.

(Expects flaming )


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## planete (17 July 2013)

I can certainly confirm the bit about the sneaky biting.  Well, more like a quick nip and run.  It happened to me once.  The dog came round the back of a parked Land-Rover, nipped my leg and was gone!  He did not break the skin but if I had been a sheep I would have got out of there fast!

Sheep dogs can be very high energy dogs, very highly strung and very driven.  You cannot know whether the one you are thinking of rehoming is like that.  A 'failed' sheep dog can mean that he has no herding instinct or that he has an uncontrollable herding/chasing instinct or somebody has messed up his training.  This dog may well thrive out of the rescue centre environment or he may be neurotic for the rest of his life.  But the fact that he shows no aggression to other dogs or humans is definitely in his favour and shows a friendly temperament.


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## sam-b (17 July 2013)

I probably  should add I already have 2 border collies, one I had as a pup from working parents, she is very driven, but a brilliant dog to have around, and is my baby. I also have a Merle who had 3 homes previous to me by the time he was 7 months when I had him. I'm hoping this one will also enjoy agility/fly ball like my bitch does.


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## Alec Swan (17 July 2013)

CaveCanem said:



			One of my trainers has always said that some sheepdogs (mostly farm dogs as opposed to family pets) are 'sneaky biters'. IE it's not apparent that you are about to be bitten, it just happens and they retreat, or they will do it while your back is turned etc.

(Expects flaming )
		
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No flaming from here.  Collies have the ability to reach a decision *and* act it out in the time that most dogs are still weighing up the pros and cons.  

In short,  and specifically "As pets",  I'd always advise against it.  If the work bred dog has nothing to occupy its mind,  as others have rightly said,  then they can display the most anti-social behaviour.  Whether it's because of me and the fact that my sheepdogs never socialise with other humans,  I'm not sure,  but almost all of them have been far from safe with strangers.

Alec.


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## Dry Rot (17 July 2013)

cptrayes said:



			Dry Rot I'm really confused?  What are working border  collies bred to defend themselves against?  Sheep don't generally bite and the dogs don't go for walks in the park and meet other dogs and no farmer wants his pair of dogs fighting each other?
		
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Yes, you are, aren't you! Or haven't been around sheep much. Or working sheepdogs, come to that.

Ewes with lambs? Young sheep that haven't learnt to respect a dog? Sheep being loaded/forced to go where they don't want to go? Tups? 

Sheepdogs are often asked to herd other species when biting, to teach respect, will be essential. 

My sheepdogs were always trained to walk up and give a sheep a nip on the nose on command. Consequently, they did what I wanted them to do -- the sheep I mean, but the dogs too! A sheepdog that won't bite on command is only 50% effective. You can't control that in a dog that doesn't have the instinct to bite in the first place -- hence the posts confirming the characteristic.


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## BWa (17 July 2013)

I have had lots of border collies in my life. Most as pets and they never nipped. Only since I married a sheep farmer have I had working ones too. We only have one that nips people and she is just a working dog, doesn't come in the house or attend social events! Our other one is also a pet and she is more than capable of using her teeth to get the sheep working but she never has on anyone. She is the sweetest dog, I will be training her to babysit when our baby arrives (joke!) 
Anyway as I before I wouldn't be without one, plenty of interaction creates happy BCs.


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## Alec Swan (17 July 2013)

Dry Rot said:



			.......

My sheepdogs were always trained to walk up and give a sheep a nip on the nose on command. ........
		
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I've always found that as soon as they understand the command to defend themselves,  they generally preempt the order,  and if a ewe looks like she wants a fight,  then she's got one!  Mostly,  Tups demand a bit of respect,  especially those wild-arsed Blackies which I used to keep,  but I've a dog here now who if a tup's head goes down to batter him,  the dog's in underneath in a twinkling,  and grips the tup by his nose.  They bleed a bit,  but they rarely want second helpings!  The dog's covered in scars from tup-fights,  but he loves it!

This very strange dog who's never turned his back on anything,  be it two legged or four,  when it comes to lambs is so unbelievably gentle,  and he would NEVER take a hold of one.  He pins them down!!  Collies,  when they're allowed the freedom of thought,  will generally work out their own work ethic,  and to a dog,  they develop individual skills which continue to amaze me.

Alec.


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## lachlanandmarcus (17 July 2013)

I've just taken on two working border collies (we have 50 sheep and 40 acres and I thought it was time). One focused worker aged 6, cattle and sheep dog, and the other her daughter aged 1 who shows some interest but don't know if enough. Previous owner didn't use standard commands hence so far I've only managed to get Mum to go and gather up the sheep, not bring them back to me, but it's only day 3. Previous owner was losing their land and selling flock. 

Both are delightful dogs, very affectionate. However I am walking them 5 times a day :-O and as we have two other dogs and horses to ride too that's quite a lot and I'm shattered and the Borders hardly break a sweat! On the positive side I will be getting very fit very quickly which I could do with. 

I have only taken these on because I am at the farm 24/7 and can give them regular attention and walks, I think they would be very unhappy otherwise. 

Haven't tried the intros with my other dogs yet, the rescue Dobie isnt brilliant with other dogs and the terrier is very bossy. 

Will update with how it goes....)


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## Dry Rot (18 July 2013)

The problem for sheepdogs on a small place is that they don't get enough work and eventually go "stir crazy"! Unless actually handling sheep, all that needs to be done during the sumer is to open a gate and let the flock into new grass. If you want to keep your dog's brain working, you will have to find work for it off those 50 acres. At least, that was my experience. 

I agree with Alec in dogs using their initiative and intelligence. I once had a chat with Bill Merchant about trials. He said they'd ruined the working sheepdog because they'd turned the dogs into automatons. He pointed to his dog and said, "If I sent that dog off to gather sheep, she'd get to the top of that hill and then stop and look back at me for signals. A hill dog has to do it without being told".


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## lachlanandmarcus (18 July 2013)

Dry Rot said:



			The problem for sheepdogs on a small place is that they don't get enough work and eventually go "stir crazy"! Unless actually handling sheep, all that needs to be done during the sumer is to open a gate and let the flock into new grass. If you want to keep your dog's brain working, you will have to find work for it off those 50 acres. At least, that was my experience. 

I agree with Alec in dogs using their initiative and intelligence. I once had a chat with Bill Merchant about trials. He said they'd ruined the working sheepdog because they'd turned the dogs into automatons. He pointed to his dog and said, "If I sent that dog off to gather sheep, she'd get to the top of that hill and then stop and look back at me for signals. A hill dog has to do it without being told".
		
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I agree, my sheep are in two groups ATM and are taking it in turns to be the victims to be gathered up every other day in order to give sheepdog her fix! we are planning to expand the flock once some fencing is done so there will be more work too then. 

If she went completely stir crazy she would have to be PTS I guess, but since that was the option had we not taken her on :-(, it's definitely worth the risk. Her daughter isn't nearly as driven, I think she would be happy as an active pet doing flyball or agility etc if not doing sheepy things.


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## debsandpets (18 July 2013)

I am reading this thread with interest, as we are considering taking on a working sheepdog for our flock, as being a mixed group with Shetlands in some of them are quite wild at times ......... We are now on some conservation grazing land and it will be hell come time to gather the sheep as there is literally nowhere to catch them to.
We have been considering offering a home to a failed trials dog or similar that doesn't work well with the pressure of competition any longer. So if anyone knows where I can source a nice tempered bitch from (can't have a dog as our current dog doesn't get on with males) that would be great


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## Sparkly Snowdrop (18 July 2013)

debsandpets try border collie rescue.


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## lachlanandmarcus (18 July 2013)

Debs and pets our flock is mainly Shetlands with a few Herdwicks and Herdwick Ryeland crosses so similar make-up. Even today the first time I worked out how to get dog to get the sheep into the pen, where to stand etc, it was amazing to have the Herdwicks where I wanted them, normally I have to try and entice them with food or wait until patient OH can help me. Even tho the dog we've taken on isnt very trained, she knows enough to make a difference! 

I do worry about what dry rot says about not being enough work tho, I might speak to my shearer etc about whether he may be able to use her for anything.


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## Ahrena (18 July 2013)

When I was very young, my parents nought a collie pup from a working farm.

In short it was a disaster, and it was a big mistake. My parents went through a couple of years of he'll with him - whenever he was off the lead he herded anything and EVERYTHING. This included getting onto a main road once and trying to bite car tires at 9 months old, running round my paddling pool (i was like 5) 'herding' water drops, ect. My parents tried very very hard, 2 long walks a day, plus agility and fly ball. They even got police dog trainer to work with him to no avail.

Eventually we lost him when he chased a squirrel across a road and was hit by a car, breaking his back.

I now have a collie of my own. She came from a family dog litter, and is amazing. She's a real pet, as long as she gets a decent walk a day, she'll happily sleep or amuse herself the rest of the time. She's incredibly loyal to me, even when I left her with my mum for a year due to work, whenever I visited, she clung to me.

My mum has 4 little dogs which she herds out on walks - but in a good way, I.e. She makes sure we don't have stragglers and has herded them away from aggressive dogs more than once. Besides that her only herding instinct ever shown was when I was walking an xc course and she tried to round up some decorative wooden cows


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## CorvusCorax (18 July 2013)

Working dogs like collies etc and GSDs, you can walk them all day but you won't tire them out, that's what they're built for, running up and down all day outside and not get tired. You need to exercise their brains...if not...I must get all of these sheep from point A to point B.....then I must jump this course of jumps in this order....I must discriminate this scent from that scent...I must fetch this ball and get it back to Mum as quickly as possible.
Working breeds thrive on work. 

TBH I think it would be a shame if such strong instinct was bred out for the pet market - it's happened to so many breeds, including my own.

Dry Rot, interesting what you say about independent thought! Know what you mean


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## Wundahorse (20 July 2013)

I have had Collies much of my life,most of them being lovely,affectionate and very trainable.My Dad used to take his Collie into the local playgroup and primary school at the request of staff,who knew them well as they were always at the school gates to pick up my children.This Collie was fantastic and really good with people,including kids,and other animals.Before that dog,i had another very similar in temperament.My current Collies are from working stock,both are excellent with children and people,no snapping , herding at all,and none of them bat an eyelid at other animals.They will watch a rabbit hop past their noses,but have no instinct to chase at all.My brown Collie will actively head toward children of any age,ball in mouth which he then plops in front of the little hands anticipating the child can be encouraged to play with him.He will do this all day.This dog is also able to amuse himself all day without interfering with anyone,or causing problems.My black and white Collie is a a different case in that he was gravely ill aged 8 months and nearly died.I nursed him for some time through his illness,which led to an unbreakable bond.He will only go out with me,is quite nervous and afraid of other dogs.He went through a stage of chasing dogs away from me,which i dealt with,and he no longer behaves in that way,although he may still snap if another dog harasses him.That dog i would not trust with children as he occasionally puts in a grip to the ankles when he is over excited.
Otherwise all of my collies have possessed lovely temperaments.


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## BWa (20 July 2013)

Mine cracked me up tonight, we encourage her to get in the water trough after she has done some sheep work as she gets hot quickly. So tonight we were putting lambs in a small paddock with just some water buckets. Yup she squeezed herself in and sat in one like a bath! 
Mine is very content to entertain herself in a good way: she loves watching tv, I have to limit it as I don't want her eyes to be ruined but she loves You've been framed and the be more dog advert!


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## DanceswithCows (22 July 2013)

I wouldn't have a collie as a pet - they are too much work to keep them happy.  We had a long string of them when I was a kid and they all had issues and they and jack russells are the only breed I've been regularly bitten by.  My current one is a working dog and a delight in the home, but god does he need some exercise and stimulation, and I second what was said about them being quick to make a decision, they are amazingly quick all round, oftentimes I've opened a gate and look around for the dog to go through and he's been through so quick I didn't even see it!  Like a little black ghost...


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## sam-b (22 July 2013)

I am not worried about collie's as pets in general, I already have 2 (who are wonderful with my baby girl I might add, and one is from working stock, just never worked) my concern was, could a collie that has started life as a working dog, settle into a none working life.

They have plenty of stimulation, walks etc, I am well aware of what collies require and I can offer that. What I didnt want to do was bring a dog home and him be stressed because he didnt have a job (though would be going to agility and flyball)


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## debsandpets (23 July 2013)

Snowdrop said:



			debsandpets try border collie rescue.
		
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Will do thanks Snowdrop


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## debsandpets (23 July 2013)

lachlanandmarcus said:



			Debs and pets our flock is mainly Shetlands with a few Herdwicks and Herdwick Ryeland crosses so similar make-up. Even today the first time I worked out how to get dog to get the sheep into the pen, where to stand etc, it was amazing to have the Herdwicks where I wanted them, normally I have to try and entice them with food or wait until patient OH can help me. Even tho the dog we've taken on isnt very trained, she knows enough to make a difference! 

I do worry about what dry rot says about not being enough work tho, I might speak to my shearer etc about whether he may be able to use her for anything.
		
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Yup this sounds so familiar !!! 


We already have 4 ESS which I did all the gundog training on successfully so I am not too worried on the training front or stimulation either for the times when the dog wouldn't be working sheep/cattle etc. the only thing we have to worry about is our eldest dog as he doesn't always take to other dogs or b1tches for that matter ...... So we would have to be rather selective where he is concerned :-(


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## lachlanandmarcus (23 July 2013)

debsandpets said:



			Yup this sounds so familiar !!! 


We already have 4 ESS which I did all the gundog training on successfully so I am not too worried on the training front or stimulation either for the times when the dog wouldn't be working sheep/cattle etc. the only thing we have to worry about is our eldest dog as he doesn't always take to other dogs or b1tches for that matter ...... So we would have to be rather selective where he is concerned :-(
		
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I'm feeling a bit more confident as have discovered that driven dog is actually very very fond of ball games too, so think she will be fine now. Younger one hasn't had any formal sheep training tho shes catching on, but she's less focused I think.


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## debsandpets (24 July 2013)

Glad to hear yours are doing as needed and also getting some fun too 
So many people don't allow their dogs to enjoy their working life which I find all too sad :-(


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## lachlanandmarcus (24 July 2013)

debsandpets said:



			Glad to hear yours are doing as needed and also getting some fun too 
So many people don't allow their dogs to enjoy their working life which I find all too sad :-(
		
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I agree, the reason we were given these dogs when the owner had to give up her flock (even tho dog is good with cattle and sheep and the neighbour farmer wanted to take them for his cattle herding) was that owner didn't want them chained up 23 hours a day, but to have more of a life.


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