# Holding horse's tongue, the hyoid bones, and doing major damage. :(



## kerilli (4 February 2009)

I was shown years ago how to pull horse's tongue out to the side for worming. I've also done it to check teeth without a gag. I was NEVER told that I could do any damage doing this.
I have just (oh, god, i feel so guilty and ashamed) discovered that the horse's tongue is attached at the back of the mouth with a really delicate mechanism including the hyoid bones (i'm sure someone more scientific will describe this properly) and that pulling the tongue out to the side can do a LOT of irreparable damage. 
someone more experienced than me will hopefully give more info (vets, dentists, please?!) but in the meantime, I just wanted this info to be spread, in case anyone else was as ignorant as I was/am, and unwittingly risking damaging their horses.


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## Fletch (4 February 2009)

My EDT told me this years ago.  Holding it straight out but not pulling at it is OK but never to the side.  Everybody I have mentioned this to since looks at me like I am mad and carries on holding tongue to the side, so thanks for the confirmation!


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## MissDeMeena (4 February 2009)

I've not held a tongue out the side to worm for years, i just shove wormer in mouth, hold head up high and push plunger, holding head up untill horse has swallowed.. however i used to do the tongue thing and never knew that..  when you say damage, what sort of damage?


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## kerilli (4 February 2009)

bloody wish my EDT had told ME this years ago. i wormed them all yesterday and didn't grab their tongues, thank god!
apparently if the hyoid bones are broken it can permanently affect the horse's balance (like inner ear imbalance in humans.)
jeeeeez. whoever showed me how to pull their tongue to the side, i'd like to get up against a wall right now. 
	
	
		
		
	


	












poor horses.


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## BuckingHorse (4 February 2009)

Gosh, thanks for this.  I never knew that either.


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## rotters13 (4 February 2009)

How easily damaged exactly? My horse spends 97% of her time in the stable waving her tongue around to the side of her mouth! Ahhh!


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## LEC (4 February 2009)

It used to be a way of pulling their manes as well but actually is no longer done as a twitch is usually more beneficial. Have not held a horses tongue for years which sounds like its a good thing.


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## Zebedee (5 February 2009)

Same boat - only just found out by reading your post. I was shown how to hold the tongue for tooth rasping as a child by the vet. Racking my brain &amp; I am sure I only ever did this to my own animals, &amp; don't recall any of them having any problems, so hopefully got away with it. EDT's &amp; vets that I deal with these days seem to all use gags, but that's one piece of information that I won't forget in a hurry.
Thanks for posting.


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## BeckyD (5 February 2009)

Rather bizarrely Ronnie's shoulder was clicking when walking - physio discovered it was due to the muscle that connects to the hyoid process being in spasm.  She did some gentle manipulation and freed the tension and Ronnie visibly relaxed and stopped clicking - for a while.  I'd never heard of the hyoid until then and was baffled by it - so small and delicate.


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## kerilli (5 February 2009)

[ QUOTE ]
How easily damaged exactly? My horse spends 97% of her time in the stable waving her tongue around to the side of her mouth! Ahhh! 

[/ QUOTE ]

i think if they're choosing to wave it around, or loll it out the side of their mouths, it's fine, they're not going to damage it themselves... it's just when some misguided idiot (that would be me) has been told it's acceptable to pull on it that the damage can be done...
VERY delicate apparently... read something online where they'd done autopsies and checked hyoid bones of 160 horses and a high percentage had damage...


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## crackersluvrat (5 February 2009)

OMG thanks for posting this, my old yard owner taught me to hold the tongue whilst I wormed, luckily I stopped doing it a couple years ago as people gave me odd looks and it seemed to be pointless anyway...hope I haven't done any damage to my poor horse :S


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## PapaFrita (5 February 2009)

Eeeeek, how scary!!


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## Bossanova (5 February 2009)

One of ours sticks his tongue out to the side when he's cross- he pushes it out quite far. Stupid beast!!


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## Foxford (5 February 2009)

Well, I certainly know about human anatomy! And a LOT of structures are connected to the hyoid bone, so the attachments can be fairly delicate. 
Thanks for posting, hopefully it will make people more aware.


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## Chloe_GHE (5 February 2009)

does this relate to that old practise of tying a horse's tounge down?... I was told years by a firend who was having sj training from an 'expert' he latex bandaged the tounge down and around the lower jaw! I thought this sounded horrific, am i wrong? is this beneficial? surely this would go towards damaging the hyoid bones....


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## Seahorse (5 February 2009)

Oh Sh*t, I was also told to do this for worming and have been doing it for years, it was a very old school experienced lady that told me this too.

I had no idea it could cause damage either.


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## kerilli (5 February 2009)

[ QUOTE ]
does this relate to that old practise of tying a horse's tounge down?... I was told years by a firend who was having sj training from an 'expert' he latex bandaged the tounge down and around the lower jaw! I thought this sounded horrific, am i wrong? is this beneficial? surely this would go towards damaging the hyoid bones.... 

[/ QUOTE ]

yes, it would.
also, using the ear as a twitch can be detrimental too appara, it's all joined up in there somehow. (that trick i was shown... by an EDT.
i despair sometimes.


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## Chloe_GHE (5 February 2009)

it's crazy to think you could be doing damage due to some barmy old method. Tounge tying, twitching, hobbling all verging on the antiquated i think... there is definitly an need for applied force/pressure with horses some times but these crazy old methods are just so outdated.

Don't feel bad you didnt know any better..none of us did


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## ArcticFox (21 December 2012)

I think this is a good explanation of how the hyoid works and damage that can be caused. 

http://esiforum.mywowbb.com/forum1/670.html

Sorry I meant to post this on the wormer thread - didn't mean to bring up an old thread!


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## angelish (21 December 2012)

ArcticFox said:



			I think this is a good explanation of how the hyoid works and damage that can be caused. 

http://esiforum.mywowbb.com/forum1/670.html

Sorry I meant to post this on the wormer thread - didn't mean to bring up an old thread!
		
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pleased you did ,i missed this first time around 
i didn't know this either although i don't tend to grab the tongue to worm ,i have grabbed my horses tongue when he's chocked before so i could get my hand in to removed blockage  won't be doing that again


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## kerilli (21 December 2012)

I'd forgotten I'd even written this. Shame someone else advocated grabbing horse's tongue on the other thread...


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## star (21 December 2012)

You're ok to hold the tongue gently but if you were to yank it out or the horse pulls back while you're holding and you dont let go then you could quite easily damage the hyoid bones - they are a tiny flimsy little set of 4 bones each held together by a little joint.


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## 3Beasties (21 December 2012)

I had a chiro to my horse a few weeks ago who held her tongue out of both sides of her mouth to 'release' something. Had never seen it before and thought it was a bit weird. After having read this I am now   My horse became nappy after her treatment, not sure if it's a coincidence or not.

How likely is it that damage has been caused? She said she wasn't pulling the tongue but just holding it whilst the horse did the work


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## Honey08 (21 December 2012)

Never heard this, quite shocked.  Something I was taught too.  I wonder how you would find out if you had done any damage?


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## MillionDollar (21 December 2012)

I have never held a tongue out for anhything....thank gawd I haven't! 

Interestingly we had to worm horses at college and were told to hold horses head up high, put syringe in and then massage throat so they swallow (always works as well).


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## MillionDollar (21 December 2012)

3Beasties said:



			I had a chiro to my horse a few weeks ago who held her tongue out of both sides of her mouth to 'release' something. Had never seen it before and thought it was a bit weird. After having read this I am now   My horse became nappy after her treatment, not sure if it's a coincidence or not.

How likely is it that damage has been caused? She said she wasn't pulling the tongue but just holding it whilst the horse did the work 

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Eeek!  How is your horse now? I think if the horse is still nappy I would get it checked out tbh......and I would be phoning the chiro for an explanation.


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## Roasted Chestnuts (21 December 2012)

Well Ive watched the vets hold it to the side  when checking teeth, also how could it cause damage when your just holding it?? If the horse pulled away etc I could imagin it causing damage but Ive never had a horse pull away when I have had its tongue 

Just curious that the vets do it, they arent pulling it out they are just taking hold of it and holding it out the way......


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## 3Beasties (21 December 2012)

MillionDollar said:



			Eeek!  How is your horse now? I think if the horse is still nappy I would get it checked out tbh......and I would be phoning the chiro for an explanation.
		
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She's had a few weeks off since because of saddle issues, will see how she is at the weekend 

I wish I'd stuck to a chiro that I know and trusted


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## FfionWinnie (21 December 2012)

The chiro told me to do this to release tension in my mare's neck 

I didn't do it as I found it a bit icky...

She did do it tho and told me it was basically fool proof!  I do know and trust her and now I am really


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## unbalanced (21 December 2012)

Eeek! I was shown to do that years ago to check teeth without a gag - by a vet from the RVC! Won't be doing that any more then


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## kezimac (21 December 2012)

My Physio holds the tongue until the horse relaxes the tongue as she is sore thru her tmj, it is sort of myofascial release, it isn't pulled out but held to one side


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## kerilli (21 December 2012)

my chiro is excellent and very thorough (incl tmj release) and has never ever touched one of my horses' tongues. 
i don't know how you'd know if there was damage, or not, tbh. i have a vague wonder (and this is totally vague and probably 100% groundless, please don't quote me on it, it's pure guesswork on my part) of whether it might be one of the contributors to headshaking, if it can possibly upset the balance in the ear, if the hyoid bones are damaged? does that sound mental though? headshaking does seem to be a newish phenomenon... was tongue-holding done in the old days? i have no idea, need an ancient stud groom to ask!
fwiw I've had horses try to pull away when I had hold of their tongue, it doesn't automatically calm them.    something I'll never do again, to be sure.


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## lillie07 (21 December 2012)

Agh, this is something I have always done to syringe into a horses mouth- hope I haven't caused any damage :-(


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## kezimac (22 December 2012)

Mine puts her out to the left side and over the bit herself and once has done this she seems easier to ride as though she is releasing something herself higher up ??


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## SheadonSaffron (22 December 2012)

Holding the tongue to the side does not cause damage to the hyoid bone as far as I am aware, and I spent 7 years studying to become an equine physio plus a lifetime of experience riding and competing. Pulling the tongue, however, can very definitely cause irreversible damage, as described earlier, to the delicate hyoid bone. If you want to find out exactly how strong / weak the hyoid bone and related structures are, there are various options for attending equine dissections, including those organised by Gillian Higgins of Horses Inside Out. I use a technique involving the tongue, amongst many other techniques, to help release various muscular tensions, in particular around jaw, poll and neck, and even such seemingly unrelated issues such as pelvic asymmetry. This is not a technique that I recommend owners to use as it can be dangerous if you are unsure of what you are feeling for. In answer to one of the questions above, yes, holding the tongue out to the side has been used and abused for many years. Dr Kerry Ridgeway has written a very informative article on this subject, but I don't have a link to it on my phone.


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## flump (22 December 2012)

Does anyone know then if a tounge tie will cause much damage?


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## posie_honey (24 December 2012)

kerilli said:



			my chiro is excellent and very thorough (incl tmj release) and has never ever touched one of my horses' tongues. 
i don't know how you'd know if there was damage, or not, tbh. i have a vague wonder (and this is totally vague and probably 100% groundless, please don't quote me on it, it's pure guesswork on my part) of whether it might be one of the contributors to headshaking, if it can possibly upset the balance in the ear, if the hyoid bones are damaged? does that sound mental though? headshaking does seem to be a newish phenomenon... was tongue-holding done in the old days? i have no idea, need an ancient stud groom to ask!
fwiw I've had horses try to pull away when I had hold of their tongue, it doesn't automatically calm them.    something I'll never do again, to be sure.
		
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been reading this with interst as my horses physio does the holding the tounge out thing to release something (yeah i really should pay more attention to what it releases but i'm not very medically minded)
anyway - my horse is a confirmed headshaker - had to get vet cert back in the day when you needed one for comps to use a nose net.
physio started to do the tongue thing about a year ago - head shaking didnt get any worse for it
in fact - with additional bowen treatment and some other treatements etc the head shaking has now stopped 
physio still does the tongue thing
so i can def say that no it has not caused head shaking in my mare


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## BronsonNutter (24 December 2012)

I would *think* that it all depends on how hard and how much you are pulling on the tongue? Gently holding it to one side between the teeth (so for worming, checking teeth etc, as a horse will never deliberatly try to bite its own tongue) should mean that the bend is through the tongue, rather than dislodging the hyoid apparatus - like what might happen if you were to really yank the tongue. 

Try holding your own tongue gently to one side; the bend will come from the tongue itself, rather than further back, up to a point. (Or at least mine does )

Just out of interest, does anyone have a link to anything scientific/an explanation as to how the hyoid effects/might effect balance? I don't have anything about that in my uni notes, so am a bit sceptical, but not sure if it might be in a later module! (Or if I managed to miss that bit )


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## Jenni_ (24 December 2012)

Yeah I was told this years ago as a WP!


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## Nic (24 December 2012)

God thanks K, I had no idea!


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## golden_revolution (31 December 2012)

SheadonSaffron said:



			Holding the tongue to the side does not cause damage to the hyoid bone as far as I am aware, and I spent 7 years studying to become an equine physio plus a lifetime of experience riding and competing. Pulling the tongue, however, can very definitely cause irreversible damage, as described earlier, to the delicate hyoid bone. If you want to find out exactly how strong / weak the hyoid bone and related structures are, there are various options for attending equine dissections, including those organised by Gillian Higgins of Horses Inside Out. I use a technique involving the tongue, amongst many other techniques, to help release various muscular tensions, in particular around jaw, poll and neck, and even such seemingly unrelated issues such as pelvic asymmetry. This is not a technique that I recommend owners to use as it can be dangerous if you are unsure of what you are feeling for. In answer to one of the questions above, yes, holding the tongue out to the side has been used and abused for many years. Dr Kerry Ridgeway has written a very informative article on this subject, but I don't have a link to it on my phone.
		
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Gillian is holding a whole conference in February on Asymmetry and Assessment in February at Arena UK- I'm going for both days, but a friend is only doing one- I went last year and can highly recommend going! (especially as Yogi B is speaking, and Haydn Price who was VERY good last year!!!

http://www.horsesinsideout.com/conference2013.html


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## STRINGBEAN (24 April 2013)

We have owned our pony for nearly 6 years and he has always hated any firm contact on his mouth.  To stop him in canter you have to release the reins and pat his neck.  If you pulled on him he would go faster. We thought this was just him, but we had his annual back check up recently and the Chiropractor found that his hyoid bone was out of line which meant that his tongue would go into spasm if any pressure were applied to it - hence he would run away from pain    Just wish it had been spotted sooner.
He explained that the hyoid had to be in place for the rest of the body to work correctly.  Well our pony was good anyway, so now he will be brilliant 
Amazing how such a tiny bone can be so influential.


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## Orangehorse (24 April 2013)

Surely a tongue-tie is something completely different.  Some horses "swallow" the tongue when galloping and it is a strap put across the tongue to stop that.

Unless it is done very brutally, I doubt if simply pulling the tongue gently to one side would damage it.  Wouldn't it require quite a sharp yank on the tongue, and no one worming their horse would do that!


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