# The 3.15 at Newcastle?



## Alec Swan (26 February 2011)

Over 4 miles?  Going such as it was?  2 horses finished?

I am the greatest fan of jump racing,  but those who would criticise,  on this occasion,  will have a point.  It was a disgrace.

Alec.

ets,  I stand corrected,  a third horse finished,  but that doesn't alter the fact that it was a not particularly edifying.  a.


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## Allover (26 February 2011)

Why what happened?


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## Dottie (26 February 2011)

I don't watch racing that often, but i thought the same. Those poor horses were exhausted. I can't believe the 2nd placed horse managed to jump the last fence from a standstill without hurting its self!


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## Bustermartin (26 February 2011)

12 started - 3 finished.  To be fair most of the others either pulled up or refused.  But it was totally horrid to watch and will give the anti racing gang fuel.  Horses were completely out on their feet and a couple nearly fell over whilst trying to keep going.  I haven't heard of any injuries, but you must wonder how many of them will come back and try again after that.

ets    The third horse finished so far back that the commentary team thought it had pulled up too.


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## Maesfen (26 February 2011)

It's an old race on the calendar contested by out and out stayers and they usually finish a lot better than that.  It was just the going was sapping, that was the cause, not that the horses hadn't been fit enough to run the distance normally.  It was just the ground that caused the damage although none fell as far as I'm aware.  
The third placed jumped superbly the whole way round, would make a fantastic hunter!

I agree, the last two furlongs were not nice to watch but full marks to the winner, he deserved it.


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## pastie2 (26 February 2011)

It wasnt a pretty sight to see horses so exhausted, it was clearly going to be a stamina sapping race with such heavy ground, and I agree that a few of those horses will jack it in future races. Could the powers that be, have shortened the race to 3.5 miles knowing the condition of the ground, or would that defeat the object of the race?


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## Allover (26 February 2011)

Maesfen said:



			The third placed jumped superbly the whole way round, would make a fantastic hunter!

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You have a one track mind!!!!!


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## Allover (26 February 2011)

Pastie2: I would have thought it would be down to the trainers to make sure the horses were in a fit state to go into the race, and if they thought the going was too tough for them then pull them, and the jockeys job to ride them according to the conditions?


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## pastie2 (26 February 2011)

Allover said:



			Pastie2: I would have thought it would be down to the trainers to make sure the horses were in a fit state to go into the race, and if they thought the going was too tough for them then pull them, and the jockeys job to ride them according to the conditions?
		
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Yup, good point.


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## Kadastorm (26 February 2011)

i agree, me and my dad were watching and were shocked. those poor horses could barely put one foot infront of the other and how that second place horse managed to jump the last, i do not know!
I dont know what they could have done, they wouldnt have shortened it and it is down to the trainers to decide if the should scratch or not. 
It'll be interesting to see what is said...


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## JDChaser (26 February 2011)

A lot of people in racing aren't happy about it either and Newcastle officials will be facing some interrogation, don't worry.


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## Maesfen (26 February 2011)

They'll be damned whatever is decided but their hands would have been tied as the race is down in the calendar as at that distance (as it has been and completed successfully for many years) so they wouldn't have been allowed to shorten it else they would be accused of missing good entries from horses that would have run a shorter distance and that would have put the original 4-milers at a disadvantage from the start.  Everyone would have been in uproar if that had happened.
I agree, the last call was down to the trainers who would all have trained their charges specifically for this race and all assumed that whatever the going, they would have been fine and given good accounts of themselves, which in normal circumstances, they would have done.  Nobody could have reckoned on the ground being so sapping, if they had, I think the race may have been cancelled altogether but not altered after the entries had been declared.  Hindsight is a wonderful thing.


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## rosie fronfelen (26 February 2011)

I knew i was right to watch the rugby as i hate watching the racing in dodgy conditions, better to watch muddy brawn than struggling horses--lol


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## Alec Swan (26 February 2011)

Maesfen said:



			They'll be damned whatever is decided but their hands would have been tied as the race is down in the calendar as at that distance (as it has been and completed successfully for many years) so they wouldn't have been allowed to shorten it else they would be accused of missing good entries from horses that would have run a shorter distance and that would have put the original 4-milers at a disadvantage from the start.  Everyone would have been in uproar if that had happened.
I agree, the last call was down to the trainers who would all have trained their charges specifically for this race and all assumed that whatever the going, they would have been fine and given good accounts of themselves, which in normal circumstances, they would have done.  Nobody could have reckoned on the ground being so sapping, if they had, I think the race may have been cancelled altogether but not altered after the entries had been declared.  Hindsight is a wonderful thing.
		
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Maesfen

you are,  of course,  entirely right.  Had the connections of Companero,  faced a shortened course,  and if their horse hadn't won,  then justifiably,  they wouldn't have been too pleased.

To their credit,  most of those jockeys who were on horses,  which were failing,  pulled up.  I wouldn't have been that impressed,  with the rider who appeared to use a fence to stop his horse,  and as has been mentioned,  how the second horse to finish coped with the last fence,  was a miracle.

In going such as there was,  the race should have been postponed.  The winner finished the race,  and all credit should be given to him.

As a matter of interest,  and though "Twitter" is a complete anathema to me,  there are many serious racegoers who are offering the opinion that Newcastle shouldn't have contemplated racing today,  and that to a man,  they were sickened.  It was a sickening spectacle,  and the race should have been held over,  to a later date.  I would hope that a lesson has been learned.

Alec.


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## teagreen (26 February 2011)

I think that if it had been any other raceday, it'd have been fine. But they knew there was a race over 4m, so I don't think it should have gone ahead.

However, I agree that they were damned if they did, damned if they didn't. The trainers and jockeys were obviously happy to run, and it is a massive day for Newcastle, and with so many other abandonments this season they were probably thinking almost purely financially. I can see why they did race - it was raceable going and everyone must have been happy, although I agree it wasn't nice to watch.

However, all the horses returned absolutely fine, no one finished totally exhausted and most jockeys pulled up when they realised it was hopeless, no one pushed further than they had to. They were lucky the horses were ok though, and I'm sure a lesson has been learned thanks to the negative reaction from a lot of racing people.


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## scotlass (26 February 2011)

Was painful to watch.   Think the worst moment was watching the horse who finished second, Giles Cross, jump the last.  The horse quite literally landed over the fence on all four feet and for a moment, just stood there.


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## pastie2 (26 February 2011)

scotlass said:



			Was painful to watch.   Think the worst moment was watching the horse who finished second, Giles Cross, jump the last.  The horse quite literally landed over the fence on all four feet and for a moment, just stood there.
		
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Yes! that was the most awful bit of the race. I am sure he will be fine in the morning though, he might not be inclined to put himself out in his next race. I wouldnt blame him either.


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## Baggybreeches (26 February 2011)

I haven't seen the race but, I guess the going was heavy/soft, and the temperature was fairly mild this afternoon, factors like that all make a difference over a race as long as this.
FWIW my horse would be an out and out stayer but he is slow, could the race have been run a little quick for most?
If a race is advertised as 4 miles it can't just be shortened can it?


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## Dobiegirl (26 February 2011)

I watched this race and as an avid NH fan it didnt make for pleasant viewing.

According to the Racing Post site trainers were aware of the expected going a few days in advance and the expectio of more rain.

This meeting was abandoned last year after even worse conditions.

This race is used as a Grand National Trial and I would have thought any chance Comply Or die will win a second Grand National would be pretty slim after today. Although I think most jockeys would have nursed their horses as much as possible those horses lok murdered to me.

No horse was injured or put down and statistics say under those conditions horses are less likely to get hurt I presume as its speed that causes horses to make mistakes and get injured.


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## Bustermartin (26 February 2011)

The commentators said part way through that they were going a sensible pace given the attrocious conditions and  I read on another forum that the time was 62 seconds slower than the next slowest time for this race.  So, no, in my opinion it wasn't that they went too fast.  The going was very, very bad.  I suspect that we have been really extraordinarily lucky that this didn't turn into another tragedy for the horses and for the sport.  

Hindsite is a wonderful thing though - but clearly questions should be asked about whether the ground really was good enough for racing to go ahead at Newcastle today.


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## Baggybreeches (26 February 2011)

I just watched the race and TBH it looked to me like they where all just outclassed by Companero who ran his own race.


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## Baggybreeches (26 February 2011)

Bustermartin said:



			Hindsite is a wonderful thing though - but clearly questions should be asked about whether the ground really was good enough for racing to go ahead at Newcastle today.
		
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Is it ever nice ground at Newcastle?


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## Mike007 (26 February 2011)

Baggybreeches ,I was just thinking about you and your boy,while trying to reply. (and wondering if I would upset you if I compared the runners with your boy).The fundamental problem with racing is that the winner is the first past the post and in all normal circumstances that means the fastest. Speed in a racehorse is highly desirable ,but a weakness. The length of pastern that gives speed puts huge strain on the tendons. Big heavy horses that can stay are just too slow or break down. The kind of horse that could pick up the odd race ,back in the 60,s would make BB,s horse look like Desert Orchid."Improvements " in drainage ,and sizes of fences ,have speeded up races and left little room for the old fashioned "mud plugger". This is not a good thing.We now breed for weakness and speed. Dont feel too sorry for a few gutsy horses who ran a tough race. There are not enough races like this.We need to keep the sort of stamina and strength this requires in the gene pool.


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## Baggybreeches (26 February 2011)

Mike007 said:



			"Improvements " in drainage ,and sizes of fences ,have speeded up races and left little room for the old fashioned "mud plugger".
		
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This is a huge point IMO, the guys at Aintree are constantly told to 'water the course' but what the powers that be seem to forget is that all the effort that has been spent on drainage, renders the watering pretty pointless!

And Mike I would never be offended by somebody using my boy as an example, I know his weaknesses and I love him because he is a nice person!


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## Dobiegirl (26 February 2011)

The old pluggers(mudlarks) are alive and well and winning races in Ireland where todays conditions are the norm at this time of year.


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## Mike007 (26 February 2011)

Baggybreeches said:



			This is a huge point IMO, the guys at Aintree are constantly told to 'water the course' but what the powers that be seem to forget is that all the effort that has been spent on drainage, renders the watering pretty pointless!

And Mike I would never be offended by somebody using my boy as an example, I know his weaknesses and I love him because he is a nice person!
		
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I love old fashioned stayers , they may not win many races but they have given so many owners  so many great days racing. The kind of owners who secretly dont really care if "Dobbin" comes in last as long as he is safe.(I also have a lot of time for owners like that)


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## oldvic (26 February 2011)

I only know the view of one trainer at Kempton but their feeling was that it was a very poor spectacle. The jockeys are not to blame - the race took 9 1/2 mins, 69 secs over the standard. If they had gone much slower they wouldn't have had the momentum to jump the fences and even the winner had to make a huge effort at the last couple of fences. The 2nd landed virtually in trot and was in trot as he crossed the line and the 3rd horse stopped for a bit before continuing to finishes ages after the others. There was certainly an element who questioned the wisdom of racing taking place at Newcastle in those conditions. It wasn't racing, it was survival.


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## Mike007 (26 February 2011)

I dont blame the jockeys either ,but I feel they are a product of their times. 40 years ago the race would have been ridden very differently,simply because the jockeys would have been more experienced in dealing with these conditions. Yes it is about survival.You need to hunt round as a pack and get the first 2.5 miles out the way, then pick up the pace. Burn it up too soon and you grind to a halt. Weather is unpredictable,I have ridden in a race when there was a freak thunderstorm 10 minutes before the off . It flooded the course. Too late to stop the race (jockey club rules) .We jumped in 6 inches of water at times. Everybody was looking out for each other till the last three,(afterwhich anything goes). learnt a lot in that race. Lost my whip ,taking a fence ,horse and rider as a triple and discovered that "hands and heals" realy do work better. Oh gawd I must be getting old.


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## JDChaser (26 February 2011)

Is is still more like that in Ireland, where the races go off so much slower.


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## Mike007 (26 February 2011)

Thats cos the Irish know how to ride


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## JDChaser (26 February 2011)

Hmm but there are quite a lot of Irish jockeys in English races remember!


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## Dobiegirl (26 February 2011)

In the autobigiography of Ruby Walsh he did say that In Ireland races were ridden differently than in England.

Dont forget 2 fences were omitted in the 3.15 at Newcastle.


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## Mike007 (26 February 2011)

Seriously , Yup you are right , so why ride differently. Its because a jockey relys on getting rides. If you ride in an english race and ride the safe course and nobody else supports you . If you win you are a hero but how often do you win, loose and you wernt trying, dont book him ever again. To add to this all is the fact that a horse gets an easy ride within a pack , front running is a hard game and takes a lot out of a chaser,suits some but as we saw , its a long time to be in front over 4 miles . I only saw this race by pure chance, early start pick up horse from gloucester and bring back to Epsom, return home and crash out in front of telly. Missed the first half but watched in amazement. Showjumping a chase fence and trotting off is not the worst thing in the world. Beating that horse into the fence tired and it falling would be. It was a tough race for tough horses. Respect.


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## Zerotolerance (27 February 2011)

Just for info, one horse, Overquest, did have a leg injury on the final circuit and was taken off in the horse ambulance. Not heard how he is since.


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## Wimbles (27 February 2011)

I have just been catching up with yesterdays racing and this race in particular didn't make for very easy viewing I'll admit but I do feel that praise is due to the jockeys who listened to their mounts. For example, the jockey on Comply or Die who knew the horse was unlikely to stand up if made to jump the fence and let him refuse it despite being in third place which would have carried decent prize money.

I'm not sure what the answers are to this but if I owned a racehorse I would want a jockey that would listen to my horse.


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## Vicki_Krystal (27 February 2011)

I watched the race and as a avid Comply or Die fan it was saddening to see what is a great horse grind to a halt 2 from home.
I do hope the injured horse from the race was ok.

I love racing - im not a bunny hugger, but yesterdays race was uncomfortable to watch.


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## oldvic (27 February 2011)

Vicki_Krystal said:



			I watched the race and as a avid Comply or Die fan it was saddening to see what is a great horse grind to a halt 2 from home.
I do hope the injured horse from the race was ok.

I love racing - im not a bunny hugger, but yesterdays race was uncomfortable to watch.
		
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I totally agree especially with the last comment. I have also watched racing from Ireland when they have sloshed through standing water but the difference is the type of soil. Some heavy ground is like galloping through soup but this was deep glue. I feel they did hunt round. In fact that is all they did as it never turned into a race as everything was exhausted before it got to that stage. I haven't seen irish ground have that effect. The jockeys should be commended for keeping their horses balanced and together as best they could and not resorting to the whip. I felt they were not comfortable with the situation they were put in and when professionals within the sport find it distasteful then, to me, it says something.


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## Dobiegirl (27 February 2011)

I dont know if anyone has seen todays racing Post but believe there was an article written by Alistair Downe which has said much of what we have all said on here.

All Im basing this on is the replies on the Racing Post site which are really slating him for this article and sayng he is betraying his NH roots. If this article is indeed true for someone of his stature to critize this is quite amazing. He is a widely respected journelist and I hope his views are taking up by the powers to be t ensure this dosnt happen again.


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## applecart14 (4 March 2011)

Bustermartin said:



			12 started - 3 finished.  To be fair most of the others either pulled up or refused.  But it was totally horrid to watch and will give the anti racing gang fuel.  Horses were completely out on their feet and a couple nearly fell over whilst trying to keep going.  I haven't heard of any injuries, but you must wonder how many of them will come back and try again after that.

ets    The third horse finished so far back that the commentary team thought it had pulled up too.
		
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Theres been no deaths of british racetracks since 12th Feb so obviously March is a lucky month so far.

http://horsedeathwatch.com/


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## pastie2 (4 March 2011)

applecart14 said:



			Theres been no deaths of british racetracks since 12th Feb so obviously March is a lucky month so far.

http://horsedeathwatch.com/

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I think you will find that there has been 8 fatalities since the 12th Feb.


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## applecart14 (6 March 2011)

pastie2 said:



			I think you will find that there has been 8 fatalities since the 12th Feb.
		
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When I copied and pasted the link I looked on the website and the last one recorded was the 12th Feb.  They have obviously updated it since my posting.  Thank you.


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