# Stallion discussion



## nomis (8 February 2010)

All too often we hear people chosing stallions abroad over the UK based ones.  So I thought I would start a thread for people to debate which UK based stallions are of the same calibre as their European counterparts.

By these I mean that the stallions or their youngstock are equalled to that of their counterparts abroad.

For instance at the KWPN Stallion Show at the weekend the Irish based "Mermus R" (by Burggraaf) was awarded "Keur".  Congratulations to his connections.  I also read that the Irish based KWPN stallion "Lancelot" has been given his full Approved Status back again by the KWPN for the success of his children.

We have Animo that was ranked 8th best stallion in the WBFSH Showjumping Stallion Rankings.  Cruising that was ranked 30th in the same list.

Of young stallions I like the look of Brendon Studs "Warrier", who did well in Lanaken in 2009, also his sire Tangelo was awarded "Keur" at the weekend.

I also got my FEI book from Germany and "Don Aqui"  youngstock are doing well for themselves in sport.  According to the book he is doing very well for stallions among his age group.

Then we have Arko III and Russell. Although I heard that Arko III is not standing in the UK this season?

For eventing there is "Master Imp" ranked 3rd in the WBFSH sire rankings with "Cruising" in 4th.

Am sure other people have other thoughts.


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## eventrider23 (8 February 2010)

Of other young stallions there are also:

Quirfino Quainton Z - jumping with Ben Maher, was 4th in the Derby at Hickstead last year (if I remember correctly) and now going GP I believe.

Vangelis S - jumping internationally with Robert Smith.  Was reserve squad for Euros, jumped in Puissances.  3rd in WC Qualifier last November and winner of a big class at Olympia last year.


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## no_no_nanette (8 February 2010)

Would definitely agree with all the names that you have up there ..... and with a particular interest in the breeding of eventers, I'd want to add in Caretino Glory, also standing at Brendon Stud, whose offspring promise to be doing well in eventing in the future - he has already had a yearling win his in-hand class at the BYEH championship, Tweseldown, in 2008, best British bred, and best British colt.

Another exciting development is that there seem to be several young TB stallions appearing recently in the UK, of potential interest to the breeders of eventers.  TB sporthorse sires of real quality, robustness and bone have been rarer than hen's teeth here and on the continent - but we pick up on the grapevine that a lovely boy has just arrived at Groomsbridge Stud (American Agent), and we have recently viewed a couple of very impressive stallions at Templar Stud (Templar Spirit - Hand in Glove X Primitive Rising; and Templar Mayfaer - Mayhill X Ben Faerie).  All currently young and unproven as far as progeny are concerned, but looking at their pedigrees and the real classics appearing there, it could be exciting days ahead!  American Agent has Storm Cat, Mr Prospector, SIr Ivor and Secretariat in his pedigree .... yum!!


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## angrovestud (8 February 2010)

Groomsbridge also have a Cremello Stallion standing for the first time Electrum he is Pure TB and the only one in the UK hes lovely.


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## madmare22 (8 February 2010)

Dimaggio now back in the UK. Certainly produces the goods.


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## ESH_Jess (8 February 2010)

There is a number of quality stallions that stand over here but i think people tend to think if them as substandard, which is fustrating, particularly in the case of our stallion as we have a Oldenburg stallion called Santo Hit, he is a young dressage stallion bred in the UK by us out of our mare Waikiki, we registered him Oldenburg as a foal and then sent to Germany for licensing so he is now Oldenburg Licensed and Performance Tested.  

Although not that many born and bred in the UK have gone to Germany or Holland to be licensed there are some which is a credit to UK breeding to be able to license on a equal level to the stallions abroad.   Via these stallions standing in german or dutch stables they have proved themselves to be of completely equal quality on pedigree and performance when licensing and being performance tested, but still people will go abroad when choosing stallions when we for one can offer exactly the same.


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## linali (8 February 2010)

Where does Animo stand, I did try and find him with google but I couldnt find any contact details for him?
Oh and I think Warrier is fantastic I look forward to seeing his offspring mature.


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## cadefan (8 February 2010)

Animo stands (quite literally, as his field borders the road!) on the A281 at Strood Green near Horsham in West Sussex. He is still owned by his Olympic rider Morten Aasen. I read in the Zangersheide or KWPN magazine that he is still covering around 20 mares a year.


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## eventrider23 (8 February 2010)

Then there are also the Billy boys what with Cevin Z, etc.

Not to mention Unbelievable Darco who himself has not managed to go to the highest heights as promised in his early career due to extenuating circumstances, but who has proven to be a fab sire and who has progeny coming through every day.


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## volatis (8 February 2010)

Echo Dimaggio, really produces the goods even out of slightly sub standard mares, and i would say Keystone's other two stallions Walentino and Rhondeo are equal to their German counterparts

Woodlander's young Wawavoom is very smart and in the Trakehner world Holme Grove Legend was licensed and performance tested in Germany, as was new young arrival at Keatinge, Cristobal. An older Trakehner sire over here who is easily up to 'German' standards is Trocadero at Bluewood stud in Sussex.

I think Lauriston is an under used SJ sire over here and also think, old fashioned as he may be, Demonstrator would have been just at home in Germany as he is here. Unproven as a sire yet but with the performance side in the back is Peppermill


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## ruby1 (8 February 2010)

I was thinking of Demonstrator but not sure if he is used as much as he used to be.
Have seen some nice stock by Monte Carlo also.


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## druid (8 February 2010)

[ QUOTE ]



Then we have Arko III and Russell. Although I heard that Arko III is not standing in the UK this season?


[/ QUOTE ]

Neither is Russel - he's returning to Co.Tipperary to stand at Lissava Stud


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## shirleyno2 (8 February 2010)

Thank you for the votes for my stallions, they are ALL still standing in GB!! 

I think it is a mistake to even THINK our stallions are substandard. Simply not true. Many a time I have thought I should have called my stud "Holland", why do people love to say "I've been to Holland to see some stallions/buy a horse".
We are GREAT Britain and should breed proudly from our stallions. I'm not saying that we shouldn't go to Europe at all for our equine shopping, just have a very good look here first. 
Animo is 1/2 hour up the road from me and still looking fabulous.
Its the Business has also produced a lot of nice horses over the years.
Peppermill has to be one to watch surely, Handel, Demonstrator, several Catherston and Welton stallions, [I'm thinking there are several dressage ones too.....]

I think, no I know, we have improved our breeding stallions dramatically over the last 10 years, heres to the nest 10 and more.....


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## Eothain (9 February 2010)

How much is Peppermill's covering fee?


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## linali (9 February 2010)

http://www.peppermillstallion.com/  all the details like price and terms are here


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## sywell (9 February 2010)

The problem in the UK unlike France and other Continental countries we do not get support for our breeders from Goverment and we have no central body like the German FN to get co operation in the horseworld overall. Stallions in particular that are making an impact on eventing are Medoc (Hann) and Classic Juan (Hann). Medoc is the sire of Red Baron ridden by Zara and now in Ireland. For some years now a good dressage score is essential and stallions bred from jumping and dressage lines have a great start. Volume is also important this last year 800 stallions were entered for the licensing and only about 70 got through so with numbers like that you must produce some winners.


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## linali (9 February 2010)

Not exactly the same debate (sorry ) but should we all also register the foals we produce with a GB based stud book?


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## lucydelaroche (9 February 2010)

Volatis - Thank you for the comment re Lauriston.  I think you are quite right about him being under used as a SJ sire since being imported to the UK, especially considering the calibre of offspring he produced on the continent.  

However, over the last few years the showing world really seems to have embraced Lauriston as a stallion to produce quality stock for the show ring &amp; those presented at BEF Futurity have done very well.  I suppose it is nice to have a boy that is so versatile!  

There are now some very nice youngsters by him coming out jumping age classes, so watch this space maybe the showjump breeders will be reminded of him.

My vote for quality stallions standing in the UK (again often rather under utilised!) Showjumpers: Handel II; Cap Calando. Pony:  Bernwode Brokat.   Dressage: Donnersohn


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## Eothain (9 February 2010)

[ QUOTE ]
Not exactly the same debate (sorry ) but should we all also register the foals we produce with a GB based stud book? 

[/ QUOTE ]

Absolutely


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## volatis (9 February 2010)

[ QUOTE ]
Not exactly the same debate (sorry ) but should we all also register the foals we produce with a GB based stud book? 

[/ QUOTE ]

Bizarely we have just started a discussion on this on the horse breeders forum based on an interview with Lynne Crowden that the magazine did.
I made the mistake of registering a foal with a German based stud book and I have no idea why I did tbh. I am breeding British sporthorses and they will always have British passports from now on, and hopefully the more of us that do that, the more our buyers will stop flocking to Germany and Holland to do their shopping


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## ruby1 (9 February 2010)

Completely agree,how can we possiblly promote British bred horses when the same horses don't hold British passports.
Any future youngsters we may have will be holders of British passports.
It all has to start somewhere.


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## LynneB (10 February 2010)

mine will always be British Warmblood registered, I 100% agree with what others have said regarding the reason to register British


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## Bearskin (10 February 2010)

Yes


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## magic104 (11 February 2010)

Medoc is quiet a decent UK based stallion.  Is there not a call for a grading programme to match the likes of Germany.  Where they can be tested in the same way, would that give people more faith in a UK bred stallion?


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## sywell (12 February 2010)

The idea of a multi studbook grading program has been much discussed. One of the main problems would be getting the principles agreed. What age should be stallions be brought forward.? How do you mark down the results of older stallions to compare the differing age groups? Should you have progeny inspection at an age where 10 progeny are selected for evaluation 3 from the stallion owner and seven randomly selected. How should the judgeing panel be selected? What performance requirements should the stallion have to achieve at different age groups? The problem is to get a general agreement you could end up with the lowest standard as all would agree to it. You mention Medoc and it is worth noting that Red Baron now in Ireland was sired by Medoc out of a SHGB mare. Younger promising horses by Medoc like Overstones Matisse ridden by Piggy French show much promise.


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## maestro (12 February 2010)

Its about time that there was agreement on a transparent grading system and then it should be compulsory to grade stallions but only then.  It should also made public in a constructive way what marks the stallions get, ideally older stallions can be marked on their progeny to bring the system up todate.
I am appalled at the number of failed stallions are stood at high level studs/stations and I do think the mare owner should be aware of that and why.  If it was all out in the public british breeder would move along a lot quicker and those already reaching high standards (and there are plenty in this country) would have much more kudos.


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## magic104 (12 February 2010)

One of the main problems would be getting the principles agreed - Does that mean that the format in Europe differs?  What age should be stallions be brought forward.? - What age do the Euopen stud books put forward?  I dont mean to be thick, but what is wrong with taking what the others in Europe have already been doing for donkeys years &amp; modifying it to fit a UK system?  I though for instance that some of these stallions actually perform over XC fences as part of the 70 or 100 day test (someone will correct me).  We can do that here surely.


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## nomis (12 February 2010)

[ QUOTE ]
I dont mean to be thick, but what is wrong with taking what the others in Europe have already been doing for donkeys years &amp; modifying it to fit a UK system? I though for instance that some of these stallions actually perform over XC fences as part of the 70 or 100 day test (someone will correct me). We can do that here surely. 

[/ QUOTE ] 

Well magic we agree twice in one day 
	
	
		
		
	


	




.  I think that what you are saying above has merit, in that why is the system not copied and modified for the UK.  Surely that would not be a difficult thing to do.

Or even for a UK Studbook to arrange for stallions to take part in performance tests abroad, at the same time and within the same age group, so that the statistics were based on the same age range of stallions.

Also none of the UK based Studbooks (other than the SSH) publish the marks of the stallions at gradings.  This I think is poor because it would give mare owners some indications to the stallions strengths and weaknesses at the point grading, and may give more unbiased values to their stallion choices.  

This I think is the good system that the KWPN has, especially at the performance test where all marks are available to mare owners and then indexes can be produced of the stallions traits.


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## cruiseline (12 February 2010)

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Not exactly the same debate (sorry ) but should we all also register the foals we produce with a GB based stud book? 

[/ QUOTE ]

Absolutely 

[/ QUOTE ]

Definitely and I think it should be made law. Why do UK breeders feel the need to boost European economies with their hard earned cash by handing it over every year to register their foals outside the country. 

If UK based studbook were getting the money, they might be more willing to put it back into the industry and sponsor more events. I don't see why my money should be given to a European studbook so they can use if to benefit their breeders and their industry.

Why are some breeders ashamed to admit their horses are British Bred???

Edited to say:

Surely breeders should have more faith in their breeding policies and the mare and stallions they are choosing rather than putting all their bets on the fact that a European passport will make their youngster a better horse. It just does not make sense to me


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## angrovestud (12 February 2010)

Here here cruiseline, its also very hard when you have invested money to  keep a UK based Stallion that is seen as inferior, but if the same stallion stood on foreign soil, it would  seen by the UK breeders as  better.
 what would any warmblood be if Europeans stud book and breeders   had not used our  British TBs to improve them still ploughing fields.


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## magic104 (12 February 2010)

Barry Gardiner MP, Minister for the Horse Industry - Is he still in office?  If so has he been asked why there is not more help for the breeding industry?  Are none of the UK stud books willing to band together to devise a proper grading system along the lines of our European counter parts?  What do we actually do in the UK to promote our sporthorses?  Why are there not more auctions in place so there is a one stop market place?  I remember someone mentioned that there was a centre nr Cambridge I think, using government funding.  The downside it seemed was most of the horses were European bred rather then UK, if this is so why?

Below is a comment from a person who purchases show jumpers mainly from Europe.  I had asked why they did not purchase many from the UK (though the last one is UK bred by Hello Oscar).

There may be a few breeders trying very hard, but sadly we have yet to tap into that for what we want.  It is horses for courses, there are some great event &amp; dressage mares &amp; stallions here, but I dont think as a country we have yet to get a handle on show jumpers, even the Billy stud, which has some very good horses and the odd great horse!

Going abroad isnt without its risks, they have clear breeding lines, excellent facilities and hot housed young horses pushed too quickly, they look brilliant over there but are not always so great when home. Rs trainer is a European Stallion grader so we hear and see a lot.

We trawl about looking, but the pattern is established, with a few reliable contacts, video first then a look see, but there are not that many with the undefined x factor. Can go months &amp; see nothing then 2 in a month.

Not easy on or off a budget.

So when are the stud books &amp; breeders going to unite &amp; work as one to improve buyers perception of UK bred horses?


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## Joshua92 (29 March 2020)

no_no_nanette said:



			Would definitely agree with all the names that you have up there ..... and with a particular interest in the breeding of eventers, I'd want to add in Caretino Glory, also standing at Brendon Stud, whose offspring promise to be doing well in eventing in the future - he has already had a yearling win his in-hand class at the BYEH championship, Tweseldown, in 2008, best British bred, and best British colt.

Another exciting development is that there seem to be several young TB stallions appearing recently in the UK, of potential interest to the breeders of eventers.  TB sporthorse sires of real quality, robustness and bone have been rarer than hen's teeth here and on the continent - but we pick up on the grapevine that a lovely boy has just arrived at Groomsbridge Stud (American Agent), and we have recently viewed a couple of very impressive stallions at Templar Stud (Templar Spirit - Hand in Glove X Primitive Rising; and Templar Mayfaer - Mayhill X Ben Faerie).  All currently young and unproven as far as progeny are concerned, but looking at their pedigrees and the real classics appearing there, it could be exciting days ahead!  American Agent has Storm Cat, Mr Prospector, SIr Ivor and Secretariat in his pedigree .... yum!!
		
Click to expand...

Do you know where the Templar stallions are now? I can’t find anything about them.


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## sallyf (29 March 2020)

Joshua92 said:



			Do you know where the Templar stallions are now? I can’t find anything about them.
		
Click to expand...

Templar spirit has done to Ireland this year.


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