# Livery Yard Rules



## KittyG1980 (17 June 2014)

Morning 

I am just after a bit of advice - we have kept our horse on a DIY livery yard  in Northumberland for the past few of months and other than the usual yard politics it has all been fine.  However, last night a sign has gone up to say that horses are no longer allowed to be left out in the filed on their own and that if i bring my horse in and leave one out on its own I would be kicked off the yard!  

One of the reasons we moved there is because we were told our horse would be fine to be left out on his own (he is perfectly happy to be left and just calmly grazes until we bring him in).  The bringing in other peoples horses also brings up all sorts of liability issues as if I am bringing someone else's horse and it panics / kicks / gets injured then where do i stand as i was moving it at the time - as it is a DIY yard there are no staff on site to help and not all of the horses have liability insurance.

I am happy to help people out but I own one horse and if i wanted more than I would get one.  Does anyone else know where we would stand on this?

Cheers

K


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## BlackRider (17 June 2014)

I'd try and find out who / what had instigated this, and maybe have a chat with the YO and explain your horse is fine on his own.


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## WelshD (17 June 2014)

Who put the sign up? if there are no staff is it a livery trying their luck? I'd find out who put it up and ask them how they feel the rule is workable/sensible  - I am sure they will have thought it through  It is standard rule at a lot of yards so must work there - what do the other liveries think?


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## schneeko (17 June 2014)

It's a normal rule at most yards to be honest, I would hate for my horse to be left alone, though we do have a couple of horses for whom expects are made. Just talk to your yard manager


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## dornrose (17 June 2014)

schneeko said:



			It's a normal rule at most yards to be honest, I would hate for my horse to be left alone, though we do have a couple of horses for whom expects are made. Just talk to your yard manager 

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This.  The only occasion my horse was left out on her own she galloped up and down the fence line, thankfully she was unhurt and I sorted it for other nights.  I would never leave a horse out on their own.


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## KittyG1980 (17 June 2014)

Hi all

Thanks for your responses.  My question is really around what the liability is if I bring someone else's horse in from the field and the horse / me / a passer by / property particularly as I would not be comfortable bringing in some of the the other horses  in from the field.  My horse is liability insured but i know that a lot of the other horses are not 

Cheers


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## KittyG1980 (17 June 2014)

KittyG1980 said:



			Hi all

Thanks for your responses.  My question is really around what the liability is if I bring someone else's horse in from the field and the horse / me / a passer by / property particularly as I would not be comfortable bringing in some of the the other horses  in from the field.  My horse is liability insured but i know that a lot of the other horses are not 

Cheers
		
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*the horse / me / a passer by / property gets hurt / damaged*


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## abb123 (17 June 2014)

Most yards have this rule. It stops horses getting distressed on their own and damaging themselves or the field. Most yards also insist that horses/owners have 3rd party liability insurance.

It isn't a big deal to bring in another horse or to work around it so that a horse isn't left on its own. Usually you can figure something out so that you don't end up having to bring another in. For example asking if anyone is putting out soon and hanging on for a bit.


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## Carrots&Mints (17 June 2014)

I don't understand why everything has to involve legalities or insurance etc, at my yard if theres one horse left out when your bringing yours in you bring it in as well, the horse being insured 3rd party has never even crossed my mind, you just do it.

Todays culture of 'where there's a blame there's a claim' is beyond a joke


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## JJS (17 June 2014)

Carrots&Mints said:



			I don't understand why everything has to involve legalities or insurance etc, at my yard if theres one horse left out when your bringing yours in you bring it in as well, the horse being insured 3rd party has never even crossed my mind, you just do it.

Todays culture of 'where there's a blame there's a claim' is beyond a joke
		
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I couldn't agree more. My yard has the same rule, and insurance and legalities have never crossed my mind either. My horse is okay on his own, but I know that some of the others aren't so I'm perfectly happy bringing them in.


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## PolarSkye (17 June 2014)

Carrots&Mints said:



			I don't understand why everything has to involve legalities or insurance etc, at my yard if theres one horse left out when your bringing yours in you bring it in as well, the horse being insured 3rd party has never even crossed my mind, you just do it.

Todays culture of 'where there's a blame there's a claim' is beyond a joke
		
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Agree.  And if you're that worried about getting hurt, wear a hat and some gloves and lead in a bridle.

P


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## Spring Feather (17 June 2014)

I think it's an awful rule and I'd never keep my horses on a yard with this rule, however, it does seem to be a usual rule these days at many DIY yards in the UK.  I think you will just have to grin and bear it or move to a yard which doesn't insist on people having to do this.  As to liability if you were to injure yourself/horse/vehicles etc whilst bringing in someone else's horse, I've no idea where you'd stand on this.  I suspect your own insurance will cover you to handle other horses on the premises.  As others have said, I'd find out who actually wrote this sign, if it was the YO then you have no choice but to either accept it or discuss it with them stating your distaste for it.  If it was one of the other DIYers then I'd discuss it with them.


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## claracanter (17 June 2014)

I was on a yard with this rule. I think it's fairly standard. However it was abused by one particular owner who never got their horse in because they knew someone else would as it was always going to be last one left out.


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## Loulou2002 (17 June 2014)

Carrots&Mints said:



			I don't understand why everything has to involve legalities or insurance etc, at my yard if theres one horse left out when your bringing yours in you bring it in as well, the horse being insured 3rd party has never even crossed my mind, you just do it.

Todays culture of 'where there's a blame there's a claim' is beyond a joke
		
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I agree, we have this rule on our yard. We don't want horses left on their own, galloping around pulling tendons etc. As a yard owner of course we are insured but i would never leave one out incase its not insured and it trampled me etc. All liveries agree.


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## Carrots&Mints (17 June 2014)

claracanter said:



			I was on a yard with this rule. I think it's fairly standard. However it was abused by one particular owner who never got their horse in because they knew someone else would as it was always going to be last one left out.
		
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At my previus yard it was abused by someone, but normally it works very well, stops horses becoming stressed!!

Last week whilst the weather was pretty crap, thundering and lightening... a girl who keeps her pony out with mine came up to the yard at 11 oclock at night in her PJ's and took her pony into his stable and left mine out on his own, needless to say mine went crazy and jumped the fence after they had disappeared!! Luckily hes unhurt, but because someone did not follow the rules he could have been seriously injured if he had wandered further or gone onto the road


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## JennBags (17 June 2014)

Carrots&Mints said:



			I don't understand why everything has to involve legalities or insurance etc, at my yard if theres one horse left out when your bringing yours in you bring it in as well, the horse being insured 3rd party has never even crossed my mind, you just do it.

Todays culture of 'where there's a blame there's a claim' is beyond a joke
		
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JJS said:



			I couldn't agree more. My yard has the same rule, and insurance and legalities have never crossed my mind either. My horse is okay on his own, but I know that some of the others aren't so I'm perfectly happy bringing them in.
		
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Me too.  And to be honest, if you're that nervous around other people's horses, do you really think you're in a position to have your own?


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## Carrots&Mints (17 June 2014)

JennBags said:



			Me too.  And to be honest, if you're that nervous around other people's horses, do you really think you're in a position to have your own?
		
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agreed


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## KittyG1980 (17 June 2014)

Dear All

Thank you for those that have given helpful advice.  

I came on here to get some advice, not to be abused by certain individuals and told I shouldn't own a horse as i am not confident around other peoples horses - HOW DARE YOU - YOU HAVE NO IDEA OF MY BACKGROUND SO STOP BEING A TROLL AND IF ALL YOU CAN DO IS JUDGE THEN DON'T SAY ANYTHING!!!

I will be logging off here now and not logging back on again


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## Spring Feather (17 June 2014)

JennBags said:



			Me too.  And to be honest, if you're that nervous around other people's horses, do you really think you're in a position to have your own?
		
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I don't believe she said she was nervous around other horses, she implied she was concerned about the damage that could be done to vehicles/people/property/horse should anything go wrong.  It's a valid concern.


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## Blurr (17 June 2014)

KittyG1980 said:



			Dear All

Thank you for those that have given helpful advice.  

I came on here to get some advice, not to be abused by certain individuals and told I shouldn't own a horse as i am not confident around other peoples horses - HOW DARE YOU - YOU HAVE NO IDEA OF MY BACKGROUND SO STOP BEING A TROLL AND IF ALL YOU CAN DO IS JUDGE THEN DON'T SAY ANYTHING!!!

I will be logging off here now and not logging back on again
		
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I don't blame you.  That comment was completely uncalled for.    I think it's a terrible rule and since you've been on that yard for a while without that rule, and very happy, I'd be cross that it changed for what appears to be no reason.  Perhaps if someone's horse cannot be left out alone they should make arrangements themselves rather than relying on the goodwill of others to ensure their horse does not pull a tendon or whatever.  Maybe horses in pairs so that there's only ever the same horse to bring in with yours and you and the other owner can work out your times etc.  Or perhaps the YO/YM can do the honours, with a suitable bill to the last out, it's their rule, after all.  There must be some way round it rather than leaving it completely to chance as to who brings in the last horse.  As for getting suited, booted and bridled to do the honours, who has the time or inclination?   If you're DIY it's to look after your own horse, not someone else's.  The same as the rule of 'first one on the yard feeds'.  If you don't have that rule the horses soon work out who DOES feed them and ignore everyone else.  Being on a yard with either of those rules would drive me nuts!


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## OWLIE185 (17 June 2014)

It depends what was in the original contract that you signed when you started at the yard.
If there was no contract then they need to issue a contract with this in it but give everyone fair one month notice of the new terms of keeping the horse at the yard.
If there was a contract but this was not in it then a new contract needs to be issued but giving everyone one months notice of the day it becomes effective.
Absolutely no one should be obliged to bring in someone else's horse unless it has been agreed between the two parties and all horses at a yard should have third party public liability insurance of no less than £10,000,000 (Ten Million Pounds).  A recent court case demonstrated that the owner of the horse is responsible for any accident that it causes wherever the blame lies.


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## Spring Feather (17 June 2014)

OWLIE185 said:



			A recent court case demonstrated that the owner of the horse is responsible for any accident that it causes wherever the blame lies.
		
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Interesting.  And should be very worrying for those who do this on a daily basis.


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## Toby_Zaphod (17 June 2014)

claracanter said:



			I was on a yard with this rule. I think it's fairly standard. However it was abused by one particular owner who never got their horse in because they knew someone else would as it was always going to be last one left out.
		
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This is the problem, someone always abuses it & uses someone else to bri8ng their horse in. I was at a yard that said the first one on the yard would feed all horses. again there were some liveries that never came down early. It wasn't work commitments it was sheer lazyness.


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## JennBags (17 June 2014)

KittyG1980 said:



			Hi all

Thanks for your responses.  My question is really around what the liability is if I bring someone else's horse in from the field and the horse / me / a passer by / property *particularly as I would not be comfortable bringing in some of the the other horses  in from the field*.  My horse is liability insured but i know that a lot of the other horses are not 

Cheers
		
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Spring Feather said:



			I don't believe she said she was nervous around other horses, she implied she was concerned about the damage that could be done to vehicles/people/property/horse should anything go wrong.  It's a valid concern.
		
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I think if you're worrying about liability, it is because you are worrying that you cannot control the horse, and therefore in my mind that equates to being nervous - maybe it's just the way my mind works though.  She did say she's not comfortable bringing in some of the horses - again, that indicates being somewhat nervous.

It's a fairly standard rule on a lot of livery yards - it may not be ideal, but if you don't like the rules (whether they are new rules or ones already existing) then you need to either do something about them or move yards.  Maybe the rule was an unwritten one that was always there, and recently there have been issues with leaving a horse alone, so it has become a written rule.

I think the OP had a completely bizarre response - and if she reacts like that in RL, then there's no wonder that she's being threatened with eviction from her yard.


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## dogatemysalad (17 June 2014)

I agree SF. It is a valid concern, I know a very experienced YO who nearly lost her life after being double barrelled by a livery's very rude horse and is now disabled. 
 There are one or two (DIY) owners at my current yard that have an arrangement for their horses to be brought in first by the YO because they are rude and will run over anything in their way, at the gate. It's a solution that prevents needless risk to other owners and horses.
 When you have a fluid horse population, it's usual to have a no-horse-alone rule on yards to prevent horses getting stressed and injured. People should just ensure it can be done safely by arranging to have someone else to help if needed or agree that the bargy one's are the first to be brought in.
 In order to survive on DIY, everyone needs to communicate and work together.


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## Spring Feather (17 June 2014)

JennBags said:



			She did say she's not comfortable bringing in some of the horses
		
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Yes, because of the liability issues.


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## el_Snowflakes (17 June 2014)

Carrots&Mints said:



			I don't understand why everything has to involve legalities or insurance etc, at my yard if theres one horse left out when your bringing yours in you bring it in as well, the horse being insured 3rd party has never even crossed my mind, you just do it.

Todays culture of 'where there's a blame there's a claim' is beyond a joke
		
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Agree with this!

However if there's a horse on the yard you are not happy to handle I would tell the YO.


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## Moomin1 (17 June 2014)

JennBags said:



			Me too.  And to be honest, if you're that nervous around other people's horses, do you really think you're in a position to have your own?
		
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What a ridiculous comment.

Just because a person is comfortable and happy in handling their own horse, who they are used to handling day in, day out, does not mean they should be comfortable handling someone else's, who's horse may well be a completely different kettle of fish to handle than their own.

I am pregnant, and still look after my horse entirely on my own. A 16.3 big, strong and sometimes flighty mare.  Yet I refuse to lead another livery's horse in from the field currently because it is known to barge and be extremely bolshy, sometimes running straight through you.  I am not willing to take that risk currently. Does that mean I should sell my horse because I am 'not in a position to have her'?


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## Orangehorse (17 June 2014)

No matter how experienced you are, there are some horses you would far rather leave to their owners than try and struggle to bring in with your own.  That comment about the OP was completely uncalled for!

OP, in this case, as you know your horse is OK if left alone, then I would ask the YO if you can be an exception and have a little note on the field gate and on his stable, the only exception would be if you made a specific arrangement with someone to bring him in if you were going to be away, for instance.


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## Spring Feather (17 June 2014)

I'm just milling over the implications of this practice, based on Owlie's comment above.  To everyone who has not considered these implications, imagine the worst case scenario here; someone else is bringing in your horse from the field one night, say the horse freaks for some reason and either runs onto a laneway/road/parking area and collides with a car with passengers in killing a passenger in the process, OR kills the handler.  Their next of kin decides to sue you, as owner, for involuntary manslaughter (or whatever the UK term is).  That's okay with you all?  You'd accept being charged/convicted with that whilst someone else had been handling your horse and inadvertantly killing someone?  Sure as heck wouldn't be okay with me.


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## Maiko (17 June 2014)

Gosh, what a judgemental lot some of you are!

The OP has raised a genuine concern. She hasn't stated she is nervous/novice, or otherwise incapable, she has raised a very valid point about handling other peoples horses, and the potential for things to go wrong. 

It is a "rule" at my yard that horses are not left out on their own. This only applies to those horses grazed in the large groups, which is why I have my own horses on individual turnout. Neither my lad nor my mare are particularly upset if their respective field buddies are taken out of their paddocks (they graze two to a field). I have them this way so that not only are they left in peace to graze for as long as I choose, but that they are not handled by anyone I haven't approved. Sounds a bit snotty I know, but I am sure everyone has a few numpties at their yard.... 

I have nearly 50 years horse experience, but I would not be inclined to handle some of the ill disciplined and rowdy horses favoured by some owners, particularly those who seem to ALWAYS be the last horses to come in. I know full well that at least one of the people at my yard play the system to their advantage, and don't bother coming back to the yard in the evening, knowing that someone else will put the horse in for them. Its just a way of getting out of paying the yard groom to do it for them. This did backfire on her for a while though, as one of the ladies who got fed up doing it would bring the horse in but remove the evening feed bucket, and then text the girl to tell her the horse was in but the feed and hay had been removed, meaning that the owner then HAD to come up. It stopped her doing it for a while until this lady left, and she is back to her old ways now.


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## Pinkvboots (17 June 2014)

Spring Feather said:



			I'm just milling over the implications of this practice, based on Owlie's comment above.  To everyone who has not considered these implications, imagine the worst case scenario here; someone else is bringing in your horse from the field one night, say the horse freaks for some reason and either runs onto a laneway/road/parking area and collides with a car with passengers in killing a passenger in the process, OR kills the handler.  Their next of kin decides to sue you, as owner, for involuntary manslaughter (or whatever the UK term is).  That's okay with you all?  You'd accept being charged/convicted with that whilst someone else had been handling your horse and inadvertantly killing someone?  Sure as heck wouldn't be okay with me.
		
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No I wouldnt its a fair point, another situation is when my horse was a colt on a livery yard this rule applied, I always made an effort to get to the yard early so my colt was in although he was in a field alone and would not have been upset by the other horses leaving, on one occasion I got delayed some guy on the yard decided to fetch him in and proceeded to yank him around bellowing at him because he jogged back, and he was never a bolshy rude colt so totally unecessary for the roughing up.


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## YorksG (17 June 2014)

Every time I see one of these threads I thank goodness we got our own place. Over the years I have met a few horses I wouldn't have wanted to handle, as not everyone trains their horses to behave in a manner I am comfortable with. When we were at livery I would sometimes bring two of ours in together, do people really expect others to lead a third as well? To suggest that someone who is not happy leading other than their own shouldn't have a horse is ludicrous!


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## Carrots&Mints (17 June 2014)

Spring Feather said:



			I'm just milling over the implications of this practice, based on Owlie's comment above.  To everyone who has not considered these implications, imagine the worst case scenario here; someone else is bringing in your horse from the field one night, say the horse freaks for some reason and either runs onto a laneway/road/parking area and collides with a car with passengers in killing a passenger in the process, OR kills the handler.  Their next of kin decides to sue you, as owner, for involuntary manslaughter (or whatever the UK term is).  That's okay with you all?  You'd accept being charged/convicted with that whilst someone else had been handling your horse and inadvertantly killing someone?  Sure as heck wouldn't be okay with me.
		
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'Where theres a blame there a claim' once again!! I doubt anyone would be charged if there horse escaped and killed said person in car or handler. We have horse we all know horses are unpredictable we all take the risks end of, its once of the most dangerous sport if not thee most dangerous sport/hobby in the world and its our choice to have horses as a hobby.

If you are not happy about bringing someone elses horse in then take it up with the yard owner and ask them or a member of staff to bring the lone horse in, the YO will have acceptable insurance to allow a horse to be brought in 'legally'

What a joke!!


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## Bertolie (17 June 2014)

Thankfully my yard does not have this rule or the one about first up feeds all horses. I am on a DIY yard which is exactly that - Do It Yourself! None of the horses on the yard expect to be fed just because another horse is getting breakfast. Equally none of the horses expect to be brought in because their field mate leaves the field. These rules seem to me to cause more trouble than they are worth! The only time I brought another horse in (at YO request) I received the most horrific verbal abuse.....never again!


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## Spring Feather (17 June 2014)

Carrots&Mints said:



			'Where theres a blame there a claim' once again!! I doubt anyone would be charged if there horse escaped and killed said person in car or handler.
		
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You "doubt" anyone would be charged.  That's comforting.


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## dogatemysalad (17 June 2014)

But It isn't a joke. I choose to have well trained and well mannered horses. I am not putting myself at risk because someone else can't be bothered to train their own horse. 

It's nothing to do with being nervous or inexperienced. Those of us who have been around horses for years and have the been there and done that T-shirt,  are more aware of the risks than an owner of one  single gentle horse on a small yard.


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## PollyP99 (17 June 2014)

Blurr said:



			I don't blame you.  That comment was completely uncalled for.    I think it's a terrible rule and since you've been on that yard for a while without that rule, and very happy, I'd be cross that it changed for what appears to be no reason.  Perhaps if someone's horse cannot be left out alone they should make arrangements themselves rather than relying on the goodwill of others to ensure their horse does not pull a tendon or whatever.  Maybe horses in pairs so that there's only ever the same horse to bring in with yours and you and the other owner can work out your times etc.  Or perhaps the YO/YM can do the honours, with a suitable bill to the last out, it's their rule, after all.  There must be some way round it rather than leaving it completely to chance as to who brings in the last horse.  As for getting suited, booted and bridled to do the honours, who has the time or inclination?   If you're DIY it's to look after your own horse, not someone else's.  The same as the rule of 'first one on the yard feeds'.  If you don't have that rule the horses soon work out who DOES feed them and ignore everyone else.  Being on a yard with either of those rules would drive me nuts!
		
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Totally agree with this and the ops case the rule just changed out of the blue, that's nuts.

DIY is DIY and we have 36 horses on our yard, no daft rules of this nature exist, the feeding in the morning is a special joke, imagine doing all 36 just because you have to be at work early!  We have shared paddocks and my mare can be a little stressy if left so I make sure she's not last, my horse, my problem, if I'm late I phone a friend!


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## WelshD (17 June 2014)

Bertolie said:



			Thankfully my yard does not have this rule or the one about first up feeds all horses. I am on a DIY yard which is exactly that - Do It Yourself! None of the horses on the yard expect to be fed just because another horse is getting breakfast. Equally none of the horses expect to be brought in because their field mate leaves the field. These rules seem to me to cause more trouble than they are worth! The only time I brought another horse in (at YO request) I received the most horrific verbal abuse.....never again!
		
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I agree with this. The rule about bringing in would drive me nuts. If someone's horse cant cope with being left on its own then they should make da*n sure they don't put it in that situation and if others are happy left out grazing to make the most of the light then they should be left out


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## Lunchbox legend (17 June 2014)

Whether or not the '_where there's blame, there's a claim_' thing is a joke, isn't really the issue here - personally, I hate the culture of sueing at the drop of a hat, but it exists.  It does impact negatively on us and we do need to consider it.  I think the OP was asking a perfectly reasonable question.  After all, horses *are* big, powerful, expensive things and can very quickly and very easily do a lot of damage and/or cause serious injury (not meaning to teach granny to suck eggs and all that  ).  It's certainly something I'd want to know if I was asked to regularly do something with someone else's horse/s.


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## Orson Cart (17 June 2014)

WelshD said:



			I agree with this. The rule about bringing in would drive me nuts. If someone's horse cant cope with being left on its own then they should make da*n sure they don't put it in that situation and if others are happy left out grazing to make the most of the light then they should be left out
		
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Couldn't agree more.


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## dogatemysalad (17 June 2014)

WelshD said:



			I agree with this. The rule about bringing in would drive me nuts. If someone's horse cant cope with being left on its own then they should make da*n sure they don't put it in that situation and if others are happy left out grazing to make the most of the light then they should be left out
		
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In theory that's fine but on my yard it isn't. 
I have 2 horses, a mare and a gelding. This yard keeps the sexes in separate fields.
In winter the owners bring the geldings in around 4 pm. The mares owners bring in anytime from noon to 3 pm. Two women come together and bring in most of the mares for their friends. The remaining owners may arrive anytime during that period. 
 I have waited some days for 2 hours for the mares to be brought in. I do not want my girl stabled for 18 hours if she can stay out longer, so I wait . 
 I have paid the YO (£10 extra p/w) to bring her in rather than waste half my life sitting around during the winter months, but if he's not there, the grooms do it and some of them may leave her til last by which time she has become distressed. Other wise, the last livery will bring her in, but by then she's upset. So, I still end up coming and waiting.


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## Darkwater (17 June 2014)

We don't really have it as a 'rule' on my yard, but if there was a horse left on it's own that is getting upset, it will probably be brought in. However, we are a DIY yard but do have staff so most of the time a member of staff will bring the horse in. It isn't often a problem in summer as they are turned out in large herds, and in winter we have a rota, and again the staff will have arrangements with those that can't get to up to bring in, to make sure horses aren't left on their own if they aren't happy. If the horse is happy alone, they are left, I would be annoyed if it was a 'rule' because my mare is happy on her own and hates being in and she is often turned out alone in winter. I think on a DIY yard it is a very hard rule to enforce, and personally I don't think other DIY liveries should have to be responsible for other peoples horses. I think if there are certain horses who cannot be left alone, the owners of these horses should make arrangements with the other owners who share their field, but otherwise I think if the horses are happy alone, the OP shouldn't be made to have hers brought in by others or to bring other peoples in.


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## abb123 (17 June 2014)

Its the sort of rule where there is always someone not happy with or without it. 

For me, my horse can't be left out alone and weaves in the stable. I had so much trouble I bought a companion (good excuse for 2nd horse  ) and it isn't a worry now. 

People tend to work together or around it. For example, rather than bring both mine in I will leave one out to avoid leaving one on its own. 

Our YO is quite on top of things though and anyone caught slacking and taking advantage would soon get spoken to.


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## twiggy2 (17 June 2014)

people need to be responsible for providing the level of care the horse they are responsible for needs.

I have worked with horses for over 25yrs, I keep mine at a yard with about 60 stables, I will not feed, turn out, bring in etc for anyone unless they ask me in person, there is only one I do (my cousins) free of charge as we help each other out. In an emergency I will do what is needed of me, being a groom is my job that pays my bills I refuse to do it for free.

there are 2 woman at the yard who have horses that I would class as dangerous when they are not handled correctly on a daily basis-i have previously handled both of them over extended periods of time, after a while they become well behaved and polite horses so the owners take over again and a few weeks later I get them back on my books because behaviour has deteriorated, I now refuse to do them unless I do them permanently, the owners regularly leave them for others to deal with as they are scared of them. since when is that fair?

as for the 'if you are nervous of others horses should you have a horse' comment, I think it is more fitting to say 'if you cannot be responsible for your horses care and meet its needs you should not have one'


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## missk (17 June 2014)

Good old DIY....some people really don't understand the meaning of it...And yes I have been on yards where this is an unwritten...well, not rule exactly but more left to the devices of each livery. I've had horses belonging to other people that I'd gladly bring in, groom and even put to bed...then there's the ones that are as rude as their owners whom I wouldn't touch with a barge pole, but to say someone shouldn't own a horse if they are not confident in handling other peoples horses is as bad as saying a horse who doesn't like being left out on its own should only be kept on a yard offering assisted livery.


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## Blythe Spirit (17 June 2014)

Although I have been on several yards with this rule - I do find it frustrating for several reasons 
1. if by the nature of your work you are often the last person the person who feels they have to bring your horse in every night may feel put out by this. I can't help that I work till 5 and I made it clear that if she didn't want to fetch my horse in he could be left alone - none the less by the end of the winter she was furious because she 'had' to bring in my horse every day.
2. secondly if I just want to ride for an hour mid day its a pain to bring in other horses to do that and then you have to decide if they have water in the stable and if the owner would want them left with or without hay and what about the feed the owner has left in the stable for 'tonight'? its hard to do the right thing. 
3. one yard it was a long walk to the field and one of the horses had terrible in hand manners, plunging about rearing, kicking etc (did it with owner too) - not fun to lead a long way in a headcollar. He was way too tricky to lead in side by side with my own horse so I had to fetch him then go back for my own.

so whilst I understand the rule it can bring its own difficulties


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## skint1 (17 June 2014)

dogatemysalad said:



			But It isn't a joke. I choose to have well trained and well mannered horses. I am not putting myself at risk because someone else can't be bothered to train their own horse. 

It's nothing to do with being nervous or inexperienced. Those of us who have been around horses for years and have the been there and done that T-shirt,  are more aware of the risks than an owner of one  single gentle horse on a small yard.
		
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Exactly this.  I bring and and turn out for fellow liveries all the time in winter and they do the same for me, I have no problem at all with that. In summer, the horses live out, they can usually see other horses even if all the horses in their field went out on a ride, so I guess we don't have the problem.  

However, there are horses on the yard  I won't handle because they are too bargey or very spooky and  I am not a professional, or a trainer,  I am a horse owner on DIY and my own horses are well within my ability, I have nothing to prove and I don't want to be injured by someone else's  rank or troubled beast.  I bet that if I were to handle a horse and it got away from me and was injured the owner would be all over me like flies on sugar too, no thank you.


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## twiggy2 (17 June 2014)

the other side to this is I do not want all who feel the need to at the yard handling my horse, one of the people that does services at the yard owns one of the dangerous horses, she tries to handle it by feeding it sweeties all the time-my mare would sit someone on their a@@e if they fed her continuous sweets and did not insist on manners.

unless it is an emergency I want my mare left where i put her


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## Lunchbox legend (17 June 2014)

This rule sounds hideous.  I'm clearly so, soooooo lucky where I am.  I do believe we're responsible for our own animals and if we can't do what needs to be done, then we make firm arrangements with a specific, reliable person.  It all sounds too iffy with this 'yard rule'.  The more I read/hear, the more I think I've struck lucky.


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## Sugar_and_Spice (17 June 2014)

Blurr said:



			I don't blame you.  That comment was completely uncalled for.    I think it's a terrible rule and since you've been on that yard for a while without that rule, and very happy, I'd be cross that it changed for what appears to be no reason.  Perhaps if someone's horse cannot be left out alone they should make arrangements themselves rather than relying on the goodwill of others to ensure their horse does not pull a tendon or whatever.  Maybe horses in pairs so that there's only ever the same horse to bring in with yours and you and the other owner can work out your times etc.  Or perhaps the YO/YM can do the honours, with a suitable bill to the last out, it's their rule, after all.  There must be some way round it rather than leaving it completely to chance as to who brings in the last horse.  As for getting suited, booted and bridled to do the honours, who has the time or inclination?   If you're DIY it's to look after your own horse, not someone else's.  The same as the rule of 'first one on the yard feeds'.  If you don't have that rule the horses soon work out who DOES feed them and ignore everyone else.  Being on a yard with either of those rules would drive me nuts!
		
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This.

To all those who say "its no bother"...it is to me. If I have half hour riding time (5min tack up, 20min ride, 5min untack) I don't want my time in the saddle cut in half due to 'only' a 5min walk to the field (and back, so 10min) to bring in another horse or go round 30boxes putting feeds in.

I think the OP is right to be worried about liability too. People (including me) may hate the blame+claim culture, but it *does* exist. No point slating the OP for it, all she wants is to not get sued due to someone else's horses behaviour. The easiest way to achieve that is to not handle other peoples horses.

As for confidence and experience, as long as a person can manage their own horse, where's the problem? I can manage all kinds of difficult horses, but I go to the yard to relax with my own who is well trained and pleasant to be around. I have no desire to get splattered in mud, pulled/shoved around and potentially injured by someone else's unruly or panicking horse. I expect people whose horses can't be left out alone to put them on part livery or make some other arangement so the horse isn't left alone, rather than expecting all the other liveries to take on that responsibility.


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## Sugar_and_Spice (17 June 2014)

Carrots&Mints said:



			'Where theres a blame there a claim' once again!! I doubt anyone would be charged if there horse escaped and killed said person in car or handler. We have horse we all know horses are unpredictable we all take the risks end of, its once of the most dangerous sport if not thee most dangerous sport/hobby in the world and its our choice to have horses as a hobby.
		
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The general public does not choose to take the risk though. I can't remember if the car driver was killed or just injured. Mirvahedy versus Henley was the test case. The horses owner was found liable despite there being no negligence on their part.


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## Goldenstar (17 June 2014)

This is simply an issue with yet another badly run yard .
Any YOer who allows a horse on their yard who the owner has no third party cover for is frankly nuts .
I read these threads and I am just so thankful my horses are at home .


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## Mince Pie (17 June 2014)

JennBags said:



			She did say she's not comfortable bringing in some of the horses.
		
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To be fair JB it depends on the other horse, there are a couple on my yard which do require a bit of special handling as one can stand bolt upright, and the other is very handy with her feet (all of them - she's a baggage!). Whilst I could deal with them I wouldn't particularly want to as the chances of me getting hurt are higher.


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## zaminda (17 June 2014)

It is quite often a rule on many yards, although tbh I think it needs to be more open.
As to liability, there was a poster on here a while ago, who was probably going to have to sell her horse as she had been off work due to being injured bringing someone else's horse in. The attitude appeared to be she should have cover in place to make sure she could still pay her bills if she was injured. Personally, while I am happy to handle other people's horses, (I work with them) and do have reasonable insurance, I can understand why many people are not happy to do so.
I have also known it to be abused by people, and can understand why people get fed up.


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## Merrymoles (17 June 2014)

As I am nearly always last to the yard, I have a permanent arrangement in the winter that the owner of my horse's fieldmate brings him in. She also poo picks and checks the water. In return, I turn hers out in the morning, muck him out and hay in the field. We are DIY but this sort of co-operation is invaluable. In the summer they are out 24/7 and if one is out of the field working or being fed, the other has to put up with it.

However, I am confident handling her horse and she is happy with mine. Both can forget their manners on occasions but neither is particularly difficult and neither is likely to bog off further than the nearest patch of long grass.

There are horses in the world that I would not want to be responsible for. I would be concerned that I might not be able to hang on to them or prevent an accident and would not, therefore, be happy with any assumption that I would be willing to turn out or bring in.

This is not because I am a wimp or incapable of dealing with difficult horses - indeed, I handle the YO's 17.2 (or more) mare who is known to stand straight up on occasions - but because I am self-employed and if I get injured I cannot work and therefore cannot pay the mortgage or the livery. I don't think it is anything to do with capability but more to do with self preservation and the concern that either the horse or someone else might be injured.

Yes, I am willing to handle the YO's mare because the YO trusts my judgement and knows I would take a view on whether I could handle her safely in any given situation. She would also be perfectly happy if I said that I hadn't brought xx in because she was being a monster but had left something out to keep her company until she arrived to handle her herself.

This rule is one that I do understand, having seen distressed horses out on their own, but if you are not happy with it, please discuss it with the YO. There may well be a compromise somewhere. For example, some horses settle with hay in the field so perhaps instead of bringing in, you could bung an armful of hay in until the owner arrives.


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## Zero00000 (17 June 2014)

Carrots&Mints said:



			I don't understand why everything has to involve legalities or insurance etc, at my yard if theres one horse left out when your bringing yours in you bring it in as well, the horse being insured 3rd party has never even crossed my mind, you just do it.

Todays culture of 'where there's a blame there's a claim' is beyond a joke
		
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Because if the horse/a n other person/ property gets hurt/damaged, you can bet your @** they will be seeking compo from the person handling the horse....


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## Goldenstar (17 June 2014)

zaminda said:



			It is quite often a rule on many yards, although tbh I think it needs to be more open.
As to liability, there was a poster on here a while ago, who was probably going to have to sell her horse as she had been off work due to being injured bringing someone else's horse in. The attitude appeared to be she should have cover in place to make sure she could still pay her bills if she was injured. Personally, while I am happy to handle other people's horses, (I work with them) and do have reasonable insurance, I can understand why many people are not happy to do so.
I have also known it to be abused by people, and can understand why people get fed up.
		
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Liability would not cover the example above .


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## ILuvCowparsely (17 June 2014)

KittyG1980 said:



			Morning 

I am just after a bit of advice - we have kept our horse on a DIY livery yard  in Northumberland for the past few of months and other than the usual yard politics it has all been fine.  However, last night a sign has gone up to say that horses are no longer allowed to be left out in the filed on their own and that if i bring my horse in and leave one out on its own I would be kicked off the yard!  

One of the reasons we moved there is because we were told our horse would be fine to be left out on his own (he is perfectly happy to be left and just calmly grazes until we bring him in).  The bringing in other peoples horses also brings up all sorts of liability issues as if I am bringing someone else's horse and it panics / kicks / gets injured then where do i stand as i was moving it at the time - as it is a DIY yard there are no staff on site to help and not all of the horses have liability insurance.

I am happy to help people out but I own one horse and if i wanted more than I would get one.  Does anyone else know where we would stand on this?

Cheers

K
		
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 Not reading other post.

 I think that is a bit strong to put up a sign without warning or notifying owners of this.


 Would should have happened is the Y/O   or Y/M  should have verbally told each and everyone of their intentions and say you have a months notice of this  going to happen  so people can put a plan in place. 

 Its wrong to put a notice up without pre warning / notifying people.



 As for you get kicked off the yard - that too is strong expecting an owner to risk leading a strange horse in when they may not know that horse for fear of being kicked off.


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## ILuvCowparsely (17 June 2014)

So many posters say this is normal etc etc.

  But still bad practice to put a sign up without some sort of time frame where liveries can work out a system between them.  Its one thing if the rule is always there but to put one up without telling them is wrong on the yards part.


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## zaminda (17 June 2014)

Goldenstar said:



			Liability would not cover the example above .
		
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That was the problem, she couldn't claim from the owner, and got properly Sc***** because she felt she had to bring the horse in.


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## LynH (18 June 2014)

I think the OP is right to be concerned. 

I was at a yard with this rule a few years ago and one livery was bringing another livery's horse in and arguably led it too close to a third person's brand new very expensive car knocking the wing mirror off. The car owner had huge problems recovering the cost of the broken wing mirror as neither the person leading the horse nor the owner of the horse would pay out. It got very nasty and as I left before legal action was taken so I never found out who ending up paying. It was a horrible situation for all three and as in previous posts it would have been a lot nastier if someone had been physically injured or if the horse had sustained a bad injury. 
It's all very well not agreeing with the litigious culture but when something goes wrong you may have to face it head on without the appropriate insurance to cover you. 

I was lucky to have two horses in the same field so never had to rely on others to bring my horses in and I'm glad of that as there were several that I wouldn't have trusted to bring my 'good' horse in let alone my big nervy mare. I think she would have got away from the majority of the other liveries and all of them were more than capable of looking after their own horses.


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## EstherYoung (18 June 2014)

So glad I'm not at livery any more..... A friends horse where there was this rule ended up very headshy. Turned out the person bringing him in was slapping him round the head. Another friend finds her horse is brought in at lunchtime during the summer when she was expecting the horse to be out for the day, or that none of the other liveries want to turn out at all because rain is forecast. And that's before you get into the issues of dealing with rude, unruly horses or those you can't catch. Unless it's a private mutually beneficial agreement between a couple of people it can be a PITA.


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## quirky (18 June 2014)

I agree with this rule as someone who has a horse who goes bonkers if left alone.

The 'make damn sure you don't leave it on it's own' then' sentiment is great until droopy drawers who usually comes down at 6 to bring in has an afternoon off and brings in at 2. Said owner of lone pony rocks up at 5, an hour to spare before last one comes in, but no, it's out there screaming and going mental.
The so called horse lovers on the yard are happy to hear and see this kerfuffle and stand idly by.

This is precisely why I won't have mine on DIY yards. They seem to attract a certain breed of person. 
Out of 25 years on livery, 2 years of DIY were the unhappiest/most stressful time I have spent as a horse owner.
Some people seem to treat making other peoples lives a misery!

Back to the OP.....
I can see your issues. There are some horses I would have to steel myself to bring in but I would do it and suing the owners would be the last thing on my mind.
Deep breath, brave pants on and away you go


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## chocolategirl (18 June 2014)

So all you people who are saying 'I don't know what the big deal is', what would you be saying if somebody was leading your horse in and it escaped, slipped broke a leg and had to be pts?? Or here's  another scenario for you, what if, as your horse bolted being led, it lashed out to the side and kicked the person leading it in the head killing them, what then? These are both incidents that I know for a fact have happened when dealing with horses, and while we are all prepared to take this risk when dealing with our own horses, why the hell should we take it with somebody else's?? From experience, you rarely get a thank you from the owner anyway, and has others have said, you will always get those that abuse this rule and use it so that they only have to come and see to their horse once a day. Why can't people accept that we do live in a ridiculously litigious society and stop playing down the implications of accidents that happen in the course of doing someone a favour! If it was me OP, I would look for another yard if this rule is staying. DIY stands for DO IT YOURSELF!


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## View (18 June 2014)

Carrots&Mints said:



			'Where theres a blame there a claim' once again!! I doubt anyone would be charged if there horse escaped and killed said person in car or handler. We have horse we all know horses are unpredictable we all take the risks end of, its once of the most dangerous sport if not thee most dangerous sport/hobby in the world and its our choice to have horses as a hobby.

If you are not happy about bringing someone elses horse in then take it up with the yard owner and ask them or a member of staff to bring the lone horse in, the YO will have acceptable insurance to allow a horse to be brought in 'legally'

What a joke!!
		
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I think it unlikely that the CPS would prosecute and bring a criminal conviction - but as you point out, we all know that horses are unpredictable.  In itself, that is sufficient grounds for some people to bring a civil claim against the owner of the horse.


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## Blurr (18 June 2014)

quirky said:



			The 'make damn sure you don't leave it on it's own' then' sentiment is great until droopy drawers who usually comes down at 6 to bring in has an afternoon off and brings in at 2. Said owner of lone pony rocks up at 5, an hour to spare before last one comes in, but no, it's out there screaming and going mental.
The so called horse lovers on the yard are happy to hear and see this kerfuffle and stand idly by.

This is precisely why I won't have mine on DIY yards. They seem to attract a certain breed of person. 
Out of 25 years on livery, 2 years of DIY were the unhappiest/most stressful time I have spent as a horse owner.
		
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Yep, probably DIY was not for you, it takes a certain something to be able to organise that your own horse (who you know will stress if left alone and you care about very much) is never left alone rather than leaving it to chance.

As for your derogatory comment about DIYers, you may have just alienated a big proportion of this forum who look after their own horses and are proud to do so.    We don't all have very low standards.  It may depend on which yard you're on but the same goes for full livery yards, some of which have very low standards of care and treat their clients like idiots (I hasten to add that others are jolly nice indeed, but was just illustrating that there's good and bad in both camps (yards)).


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## SpottyMare (18 June 2014)

quirky said:



			I agree with this rule as someone who has a horse who goes bonkers if left alone.

The 'make damn sure you don't leave it on it's own' then' sentiment is great until droopy drawers who usually comes down at 6 to bring in has an afternoon off and brings in at 2. Said owner of lone pony rocks up at 5, an hour to spare before last one comes in, but no, it's out there screaming and going mental.
The so called horse lovers on the yard are happy to hear and see this kerfuffle and stand idly by.
		
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Basing the management of your horse on what somebody else 'usually' does is not going to be a recipe for success...  And I say that as the owner of a young horse who couldn't be left on her own, so I have arrangements in place to make sure she isn't.


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## gembear (18 June 2014)

JennBags said:



			I think if you're worrying about liability, it is because you are worrying that you cannot control the horse, and therefore in my mind that equates to being nervous - maybe it's just the way my mind works though.  She did say she's not comfortable bringing in some of the horses - again, that indicates being somewhat nervous.

It's a fairly standard rule on a lot of livery yards - it may not be ideal, but if you don't like the rules (whether they are new rules or ones already existing) then you need to either do something about them or move yards.  Maybe the rule was an unwritten one that was always there, and recently there have been issues with leaving a horse alone, so it has become a written rule.

I think the OP had a completely bizarre response - and if she reacts like that in RL, then there's no wonder that she's being threatened with eviction from her yard.
		
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That was pretty uncalled for. No wonder the OP left after that rude response.


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## gembear (18 June 2014)

My loan shares a field with one - an older, sometimes bolshy highland pony that will throw in the odd kick if he feels like it (thankfully never done it yet, but has threatened).

Sometimes I leave him in the field if bringing mine in to ride, or bring them both in.... I normally ask his owner/YO beforehand. If his owner isn't around, i'll also do his feed, hay, muck out etc. She also does the same for my ride if myself or my horses owner aren't around.

However, that's a happy agreement between us. If this rule has just been thrown on the OP without any discussion, that is completely unfair.

I'll also help/offer to bring in the other horses from the other field if need be. And may I add, i'm a "novice" - doesn't mean i'm nervous... not that the OP said she was.


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## AnyChance (18 June 2014)

The problem with DIY is, as you can see from replys on here, everyone has different views on how things should be done. Everyone has different routines and other demands in life.

Reading this thread I am so thankful to now be on a yard that for £50 per week they feed turn out and bring in 7 days a week. All the horses are settled, some are out overnight some out during the day. All this and only 5 mins from my house! I now can simply enjoy the time at the yard with my horse. 

OP has had some ridiculous, uncalled for and callous comments.


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (18 June 2014)

Goldenstar said:



			This is simply an issue with yet another badly run yard .
Any YOer who allows a horse on their yard who the owner has no third party cover for is frankly nuts .
I read these threads and I am just so thankful my horses are at home .
		
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and me!

TBH its unlikely that i would ever be on a yard with just 1 horse, as NMT and i work together with them, so as being as ours would be ok to be left alone(in paddocks side by side so not really alone) i certainly would not be risking myself or wasting time bringing in anyone elses horses and i wouldnt go to a yard that insisted on it.

I might swap favours with a friend by prior arrangement, but end up bringing in every tom dick and harrys bolshy mannerless pig just because.....no bleeding way!

if people's horses are not ok to be left they need to make an arrangement with a friend, pay someone on the yard, or pay staff, to get them in earlier (if they cant do it them self).

same with feeding, i wouldn't want someone else putting my feeds in and i wouldn't go round doing every horse on the yard just because i can be assed to get up earlier than everyone else.


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## fatpiggy (18 June 2014)

I think it is a pretty common rule at many DIY yards and I can see both sides - the YO isn't going to come down and find the one remaining horse trashing the field in its distress, and its owner isn't going to come down and have to call the vet because the horse has tried to jump the gate, pulled a tendon in the mud by the gate, pulled a shoe off from doing a handbrake turn every ten yards, whatever.   BUT, what if you are the last person down because another owner has shirked their responsibilities and known full well that some sucker is going to bring their horse in for them (stable is ready, haynet and water in), and having fetched your horse in, you go back for theirs which is now in a right state, tries to barge the gate, and flattens you in the process.  No-one else is going to come down and find you (not all YOs do a bedtime check) and if it happened to me, being single, the first person to realise something was wrong would be a work colleague when I didn't turn up in the morning.  I could have bled to death, or died from head injury or whatever by that time.  This might seem far fetched but I had several near misses over the years and I was a very experienced owner and not fazed by other horses' antics.  Just removing my horse from a field with 11 others in winter, no grass and everyone desperate to get in to a nice dry stable with the thought of food in the forefront of their minds, proved to be pretty hazardous (one girl got kicked when she was 4 months pregnant).  In the end I had to rely on my horse who, getting on in years, had more or less given up being an idiot, and I could let her take herself through the field gate, across the yard and into her stable without me, while I beat the others back from the gate, then try to catch her up.  Bless her, apart from accidentally going into someone else's stable once (she was losing her sight and I think she just mistook it) she never let me down, but I really wouldn't recommend it, and supposing the yard had been on the other side of the road from the field (not uncommon in semi-suburban yards)?  It was pitch black at the field gate and the mud was almost up to the top of my boots during a wet winter - not good for trying to get out of the way of a determined 16.3hh heavyweight coming at you at the gallop!

I think that as the OP is happy that their horse is fine left in the field on its own, that the YO should ask them to sign a disclaimer that it is on their own head, and they aren't to abuse the trust by leaving the horse out all night when everyone else has to bring in,  and then treat every horse as an individual and consider other requests on a case by case basis.  It is much like when the rule is that horses have to be in by 5pm in winter - great if you are at school and finished by 4, or able to work flexi, but hopeless if you can't finish until 5 and then it is an hours drive to the yard.  I'm afraid I wouldn't go there in the first place.


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## Spring Feather (18 June 2014)

fatpiggy said:



			I think it is a pretty common rule at many DIY yards and I can see both sides - the YO isn't going to come down and find the one remaining horse trashing the field in its distress, and its owner isn't going to come down and have to call the vet because the horse has tried to jump the gate, pulled a tendon in the mud by the gate, pulled a shoe off from doing a handbrake turn every ten yards, whatever.
		
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Well my opinion on that is if a YO does make this rule, that's absolutely fine, however the responsibility of bringing in the last horse lies with the YO, not some other livery.


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## Fides (18 June 2014)

Another slant on it - I wouldn't want my horse bringing in. I would want them out as long as possible... Also when I was on DIY I used to be short on time in the morning so would go down, turn out and leave. I wouldn't be happy for my horse to be brought in and put in a dirty stable, nor to feel obliged to do hay and water needlessly just in case another livery brought my horse in. I also wouldn't be happy for other liveries handling my horses - I've seem some overly harsh and others that overly treat, neither of which I do with my own.


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## Moomin1 (18 June 2014)

quirky said:



			I agree with this rule as someone who has a horse who goes bonkers if left alone.

The 'make damn sure you don't leave it on it's own' then' sentiment is great until droopy drawers who usually comes down at 6 to bring in has an afternoon off and brings in at 2. Said owner of lone pony rocks up at 5, an hour to spare before last one comes in, but no, it's out there screaming and going mental.
The so called horse lovers on the yard are happy to hear and see this kerfuffle and stand idly by.

This is precisely why I won't have mine on DIY yards. They seem to attract a certain breed of person. 
Out of 25 years on livery, 2 years of DIY were the unhappiest/most stressful time I have spent as a horse owner.
Some people seem to treat making other peoples lives a misery!

Back to the OP.....
I can see your issues. There are some horses I would have to steel myself to bring in but I would do it and suing the owners would be the last thing on my mind.
Deep breath, brave pants on and away you go 

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On the contrary...I personally would never have my horse on anything other than DIY, looked after by myself, in order to ensure that she is looked after 100% correctly.


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## dogatemysalad (18 June 2014)

It's all very well to say that you have an arrangement for someone to bring your horse in, but what happens when your friend takes her horse out to ride, leaving yours happily in the company of a few others and then the others happen to be  brought in, and the last person doesn't bother about your now, alone horse ?

With turnout time in winter being a premium, would you not mind if you came down at 5pm, expecting to find your horse had been in for 30 minutes, only to discover it'd been brought in at 11am ?

The rule for not leaving a horse out alone is a sensible one, however with  difficult horses, the owner should make arrangements that doesn't put other people and horses at risk. That's the price you pay for having an ill mannered horse. 

I'm fortunate enough to have the choice whether to keep mine at home or on a yard, but I choose livery as I  love my horses having lots company, better facilities and opportunities to work with other horses. Surviving on a yard means being tolerant, flexible and a reasonable communicator- and avoiding groups of three people or more when you hear the words being spoken; 'she never....' or 'I told him straight..'


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## sport horse (18 June 2014)

The thought that anyone owns a horse without having Public Liability Insurance is mind boggling and that any yard owner permits such horse to be in their yard is beyond belief. A horse is a flight animal and anything can and often does scare them with disastrous consequences. To hack out, lead a horse around etc etc in a public place (& yes a livery yard of any sort would probably be deemed to be a public place in these terms)  without cover is ridiculous. Get real folk and join the BHS/BS/BE etc etc Your membership will give you automatic Public Liability cover for all your horses and support the work of the Society.


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## Ranyhyn (18 June 2014)

In the real world its only sensible to guard yourself against those who do live in a blame society.  I dont think the issue of liability shows a lack of competence, rather a lack of desire to be held accountable for someone elses horse - which I think is fair and understandable.
OP in this instance I assume everyone will have to sign something saying that if another person is hurt/property damaged etc etc etc  its their responsibility (the owners) not the handlers?  How legal that is and how it stands up in court would only live to be seen but I, like you, would be safeguarding myself against ever having to be in that situation.


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## Goldenstar (18 June 2014)

Ranyhyn said:



			In the real world its only sensible to guard yourself against those who do live in a blame society.  I dont think the issue of liability shows a lack of competence, rather a lack of desire to be held accountable for someone elses horse - which I think is fair and understandable.
OP in this instance I assume everyone will have to sign something saying that if another person is hurt/property damaged etc etc etc  its their responsibility (the owners) not the handlers?  How legal that is and how it stands up in court would only live to be seen but I, like you, would be safeguarding myself against ever having to be in that situation.
		
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You cannot sign away your rights in English law so if in law a handler was held liable they would be liable no matter what the owner had signed .


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## quirky (18 June 2014)

Blurr said:



			Yep, probably DIY was not for you, it takes a certain something to be able to organise that your own horse (who you know will stress if left alone and you care about very much) is never left alone rather than leaving it to chance.

As for your derogatory comment about DIYers, you may have just alienated a big proportion of this forum who look after their own horses and are proud to do so.    We don't all have very low standards.  It may depend on which yard you're on but the same goes for full livery yards, some of which have very low standards of care and treat their clients like idiots (I hasten to add that others are jolly nice indeed, but was just illustrating that there's good and bad in both camps (yards)).
		
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Clueless!

How can you ensure your horse is never left alone when people do not have the common courtesy to tell you the routine they follow 99.9% of the time is changing?
Oh yes, never turn the horse out......just in case.

Don't know what makes you think I don't look after my own horse, her being led out to a field and back in again, does not make that groom a full time carer.

Yes, there are people on the yard who don't see their horse from one week to the next, that is their prerogative. Just as it is mine to see and ride mine everyday.


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## Ranyhyn (18 June 2014)

Goldenstar said:



			You cannot sign away your rights in English law so if in law a handler was held liable they would be liable no matter what the owner had signed .
		
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What about in Welsh law?  Is there such a thing? 

In that case, I wouldn't touch anyone elses horse - and I'd be quite happy to tell the YO just that.


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## niagaraduval (18 June 2014)

I'm so glad I'm no longer on a yard.

I can see why the rule is put in place (in some cases) but do find it totally ridiculous. 

Does this mean you have to lead the 2 horses in at once ? or can they stay alone whilst you put the other one in ? Would everyone have to arrange separate riding times so no one is out whilst the neighbor is riding ?

Where does it stop ? I would be miffed too.

Regarding the comment about OP shouldn't have a horse - what a ridiculous, rude comment to make, very constructive. I rarely post on HHO now, I get shot down for almost every single thing I post, I don't even know why I'm still here after all these years.


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## Marydoll (18 June 2014)

If a yo wants to introduce that rule where there are problem horses around let them be there to bring the last horse in, or reconsider the rule, why should anyone else be put at risk handling others arsey horses.
Most folks are ok handling most horses  but there are some horses who can be absolute barstewards,  in the past ive had to bring in an idiot in a chiffney because the owner cba to teach him how to lead , erm thats their job, not mine, after a few close calls with it rearing and boxing out they were left to their own devices, stuff that !!! If it was mine it would have been schooled and sorted but it wasnt , if i get injured who's going to look after mine ! Im another glad to be in my own place when i read things like this. Also looking at it from another pov, there are some folks i wouldnt want handling my horses at all


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## Amymay (18 June 2014)

Carrots&Mints said:



			'Where theres a blame there a claim' once again!! I doubt anyone would be charged if there horse escaped and killed said person in car or handler.
		
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It's already happened, thankfully none of those involved were killed.


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## Cinnamontoast (18 June 2014)

If you agree to catch in someone's horse voluntarily and it injures you, it is pretty much impossible to sue, because you agreed to the arrangement (and thereby agree to taking the risk of handling). 

I would not agree to catching in any horse I was concerned about. I am loathe to catch in more than one at a time these days, although I will get mine and his best mate, but only because the mate is solid as a rock. If I were the OP, I'd simply state that I wouldn't be catching in random horses.


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## Pearlsasinger (18 June 2014)

Well, I'm another who is even more delighted than before that our horses are at home!

I cannot believe that at least one poster feels that other DIY-ers should organise their lives around someone else's horse that can't be left out on its own.  
Nor that people are expected to feed/put out/bring in other people's horses because their jobs or other commitments mean that they have to be at the yard earlier or later than most other people.  
Who the hell wants to have to get up half an hour earlier because they have a dozen horses that don't belong to them to feed? 
And I certainly wouldn't want other people handling my horses  just because they happened to finish work early one day.


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## PolarSkye (19 June 2014)

Sort of tangential, but are there really THAT many unhandleable horses about these days?  This thread is making me a little sad thinking about how many people are cagey about handling other people's horses in case they kick off - or have had experience with dangerous horses on the ground . . . or perhaps I've just been either really lucky or really naive when handling other people's horses.

I've turned out three very fresh, bouncy OTTBs at once before now - yes, they were lively but nothing too awful.  I used to routinely bring in/turn out mine and my dressage trainer's nutjob TB together - without incident.  In fact, the only horse I've met so far (and I've met/handled hundreds) that I wouldn't lead with mine is a mare at our current yard who is extremely unpredictable with her back legs - but I have no issues dealing with her on her own.  

My comment isn't an indictment on the handlers - I'm asking a genuine question about the number of "dangerous" horses mentioned on this thread as reasons for not wanting to handle other people's horses.  

P


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## Blurr (19 June 2014)

quirky said:



			Clueless!

How can you ensure your horse is never left alone when people do not have the common courtesy to tell you the routine they follow 99.9% of the time is changing?
Oh yes, never turn the horse out......just in case.

Don't know what makes you think I don't look after my own horse, her being led out to a field and back in again, does not make that groom a full time carer.

Yes, there are people on the yard who don't see their horse from one week to the next, that is their prerogative. Just as it is mine to see and ride mine everyday.[/QUOTE}

'Clueless' is not making arrangements and just leaving  things to chance or, indeed, 'common courtesy'.  If you hadn't made arrangements then there was no onus on the other person to phone you, was there?  What makes you so special that other liveries have to check in out of courtesty to tell you what they're doing?  

I've no idea about what you do with your horse, and care less.  But thank goodness someone else has the responsibility of organising putting it out and back in, as you don't seem to have the gumption.  Nice that you turn up to ride though, well done for that.
		
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## ILuvCowparsely (19 June 2014)

]

Its not down to Yard owner, its a diy yard - do it yourself.  Its up to the owner to arrange the horse to come in if they can not be there

 If this yard owner has the options of extra catch in 's then the owner can use this facility and pay for the horse to come in on days the owner cannot.

 Or arrange with a fellow livery to do each others on alternate days which can help both so owners can have a day off from going to yard.  This system is the cheaper option and can benefit both parties.

My DIY have the options of extra catch in- they do use it and I get a text to bring her mare in, If I don't then she remains out till owner gets there which is never long after the 4pm catch in time.

 I fail to see how a Yard Owner has to be responsible for bring a horse in when there is no system set up in place.


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## zaminda (19 June 2014)

But the reason behind this thread is that they are putting the onus on bringing someone else's horse in on whoever is one but last to bring their own horse in! Surely that's not right either.
Its not a situation I am ever likely to be in again, but I have had mine handled by other people in the past. On the whole they are fine, if they don't like a person they won't be able to catch them anyway so no problem. There have been people on yards I have been on in the past who I would have been very unhappy with touching my horses if I'm honest.


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## PolarSkye (19 June 2014)

Blurr said:





quirky said:



			Clueless!

How can you ensure your horse is never left alone when people do not have the common courtesy to tell you the routine they follow 99.9% of the time is changing?
Oh yes, never turn the horse out......just in case.

Don't know what makes you think I don't look after my own horse, her being led out to a field and back in again, does not make that groom a full time carer.

Yes, there are people on the yard who don't see their horse from one week to the next, that is their prerogative. Just as it is mine to see and ride mine everyday.[/QUOTE}

'Clueless' is not making arrangements and just leaving  things to chance or, indeed, 'common courtesy'.  If you hadn't made arrangements then there was no onus on the other person to phone you, was there?  What makes you so special that other liveries have to check in out of courtesty to tell you what they're doing?  

I've no idea about what you do with your horse, and care less.  *But thank goodness someone else has the responsibility of organising putting it out and back in, as you don't seem to have the gumption.  Nice that you turn up to ride though, well done for that.*

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Rather uncalled for . . . 

P
		
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## PolarSkye (19 June 2014)

Blurr said:



			'Clueless' is not making arrangements and just leaving  things to chance or, indeed, 'common courtesy'.  If you hadn't made arrangements then there was no onus on the other person to phone you, was there?  What makes you so special that other liveries have to check in out of courtesty to tell you what they're doing?
		
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What this comes down to really is communication - on all sides.  If you share a field with someone who routinely brings in at (say) 5.00 p.m. and you factor that into your own schedule, surely it is just common courtesy of the other livery to give you a heads up if they'll be changing their routinie and bringing in early so that you can make appropriate arrangements . . . and vice versa?  

Since when did DIY mean "I'm alright Jack?"

P


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## Blurr (19 June 2014)

PolarSkye said:





Blurr said:



			Rather uncalled for . . . 

P
		
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So was calling me "Clueless".
		
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## Blurr (19 June 2014)

PolarSkye said:



			What this comes down to really is communication - on all sides.  If you share a field with someone who routinely brings in at (say) 5.00 p.m. and you factor that into your own schedule, surely it is just common courtesy of the other livery to give you a heads up if they'll be changing their routinie and bringing in early so that you can make appropriate arrangements . . . and vice versa?  

Since when did DIY mean "I'm alright Jack?"

P
		
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I think a lot of people think that if it's important that your horse is not left alone, then you make an effort with the arrangements.  If this was a first occurrence, how was the other horse owner to know it was so imortant if they'd not been spoken to?

Since when did DIY mean "do it for myself and every other Tom, Dick or Harry whether they ask me to or not"?  Of COURSE communication and cooperation is important, but if a horse is stressy on its own, the onus is on the owner to make arrangements, not for other liveries to guess (and potentially get it wrong).  Aside from that, how was the other owner to contact the owner of the stressy horse?  I rarely have a phone with me, perhaps they're the same?


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## PolarSkye (19 June 2014)

Blurr said:



			I think a lot of people think that if it's important that your horse is not left alone, then you make an effort with the arrangements.  If this was a first occurrence, how was the other horse owner to know it was so imortant if they'd not been spoken to?

Since when did DIY mean "do it for myself and every other Tom, Dick or Harry whether they ask me to or not"?  Of COURSE communication and cooperation is important, but if a horse is stressy on its own, the onus is on the owner to make arrangements, not for other liveries to guess (and potentially get it wrong).  Aside from that, how was the other owner to contact the owner of the stressy horse?  I rarely have a phone with me, perhaps they're the same?
		
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I get it - you're not a fan of the "rule" and you would feel hard done by having to take other people's horses into consideration.  

However, I'm afraid I couldn't leave a distressed horse by itself in a field . . . and if I share a field (or even adjoining fields) with people, I make sure I have a rough idea of their comings and goings in case any of the horses need rescuing/bringing in - theirs and mine.

By way of example . . . Christmas Day a year or so ago, I went up to fetch mine in - fieldmate had blood on his face and his leg . . . I left mine out while I brought the other horse in, cleaned him up, cold hosed him and put him in his stable - and then went back and got mine and the remaining horse in the field.  At the time, the owner of the injured horse wasn't speaking to me - and was routinely bringing the other two in and leaving mine out to run around in a panic without telling the person I had arranged to bring mine in (because I couldn't be there at half past two in the afternoon) that she was going up to the field (knowing that mine panics if left alone).  Even though I couldn't stand the owner, I still had my own horse to sort out, and my family were waiting at home for me to finish cooking the Christmas dinner, I did the right thing by both of the other horses - because it was the right thing to do.  I'm willing to bet that most people would do the same - including you.  That's all this thread is about - putting the horses first.  

I agree that whoever put up the sign could have chosen a better way to communicate the change in the rules, however I can't agree that the rule that all liveries on a DIY yard should be mindful and considerate of horses being left alone is a bad one . . . and I wouldn't be wanting to keep my horse on a yard where people weren't prepared to look after each other and their horses.

P


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## fatpiggy (19 June 2014)

PolarSkye said:



			Sort of tangential, but are there really THAT many unhandleable horses about these days?  This thread is making me a little sad thinking about how many people are cagey about handling other people's horses in case they kick off - or have had experience with dangerous horses on the ground . . . or perhaps I've just been either really lucky or really naive when handling other people's horses.

I've turned out three very fresh, bouncy OTTBs at once before now - yes, they were lively but nothing too awful.  I used to routinely bring in/turn out mine and my dressage trainer's nutjob TB together - without incident.  In fact, the only horse I've met so far (and I've met/handled hundreds) that I wouldn't lead with mine is a mare at our current yard who is extremely unpredictable with her back legs - but I have no issues dealing with her on her own.  

My comment isn't an indictment on the handlers - I'm asking a genuine question about the number of "dangerous" horses mentioned on this thread as reasons for not wanting to handle other people's horses.  

P
		
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I suspect there are more rude horses these days simply because there seem to be so many ignorant owners who haven't a clue how to train and discipline their animal, or treat it like my little pony which can do no wrong.    

A friend of mine had a big young horse. She is an intelligent person, has a good job which requires use of her management skills and brain power generally, but that horse literally ran circles around her.  I led it down to the field once and it was a total nightmare. Mind you after I'd read it the riot act very loudly it remembered its manners.  My horse was a bit impetuous when I first got her and we spent the first month establishing ground rules and what behaviour I expected of her.  It paid off as the little grandson of the next door livery adored her and I could trust her entirely to be led about by him around the yard. He wasn't even 3 at the time and she took tiny steps so that she didn't get ahead of him - I trained her to walk by my shoulder unless I sent her up ahead.


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## fatpiggy (19 June 2014)

HGA-12 said:



			]

Its not down to Yard owner, its a diy yard - do it yourself.  Its up to the owner to arrange the horse to come in if they can not be there

 If this yard owner has the options of extra catch in 's then the owner can use this facility and pay for the horse to come in on days the owner cannot.

 Or arrange with a fellow livery to do each others on alternate days which can help both so owners can have a day off from going to yard.  This system is the cheaper option and can benefit both parties.

My DIY have the options of extra catch in- they do use it and I get a text to bring her mare in, If I don't then she remains out till owner gets there which is never long after the 4pm catch in time.

 I fail to see how a Yard Owner has to be responsible for bring a horse in when there is no system set up in place.
		
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I know of one local DIY yard that absolutely forbids the swapping of duties as you describe.  If you can't come up you HAVE to pay the YO to do whatever is required.  A nice little earner...


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## MileAMinute (19 June 2014)

At the end of the day, as a DIY livery, you are responsible for your horse and your horse only. If you have an arrangement with another livery to help each other that's different.
I wouldn't expect to have to bring another horse in all because I'm there before the other livery....likewise I wouldn't expect another livery to bring my boy in because I work shifts and sometimes don't get to the yard until 8pm. If my horse stressed when left out alone I would arrange for him to be brought in prior to my arrival (there are people on the yard that offer that service).

I can understand OP not wanting to bring other horses in, 100%. Do you have a contract OP?


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (19 June 2014)

PolarSkye said:



			I get it - you're not a fan of the "rule" and you would feel hard done by having to take other people's horses into consideration.  

However, I'm afraid I couldn't leave a distressed horse by itself in a field . . . and if I share a field (or even adjoining fields) with people, I make sure I have a rough idea of their comings and goings in case any of the horses need rescuing/bringing in - theirs and mine.

By way of example . . . Christmas Day a year or so ago, I went up to fetch mine in - fieldmate had blood on his face and his leg . . . I left mine out while I brought the other horse in, cleaned him up, cold hosed him and put him in his stable - and then went back and got mine and the remaining horse in the field.  At the time, the owner of the injured horse wasn't speaking to me - and was routinely bringing the other two in and leaving mine out to run around in a panic without telling the person I had arranged to bring mine in (because I couldn't be there at half past two in the afternoon) that she was going up to the field (knowing that mine panics if left alone).  Even though I couldn't stand the owner, I still had my own horse to sort out, and my family were waiting at home for me to finish cooking the Christmas dinner, I did the right thing by both of the other horses - because it was the right thing to do.  I'm willing to bet that most people would do the same - including you.  That's all this thread is about - putting the horses first.  

I agree that whoever put up the sign could have chosen a better way to communicate the change in the rules, however I can't agree that the rule that all liveries on a DIY yard should be mindful and considerate of horses being left alone is a bad one . . . and I wouldn't be wanting to keep my horse on a yard where people weren't prepared to look after each other and their horses.

P
		
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i dont think there are many more truly dangerous horses, but i see an awful lot of ignorant horses......out of all those i see on yards whilst teaching, i can think of a mere handful (excl clients horses) that would walk at my shoulder, back away from the gate, stand and wait, then walk away...........most do some variation of hanging back, pulling ahead, barging and snatching, pulling to grass, refusing to back up, then farting off kicking out................and you know what, i can think of better ways to spend my time than being a free bring in/turn out/manners installing service to any of those horses!

whilst i doubt i would get seriously injured, i dont want bruises, pulled muscles, squashed toes,scrapes cuts etc and neither do i want to get **** up to the eyeballs being dragged through mud and undergrowth by a bargey pig of a horse.

so thanks but no thanks. if it was on 3 legs or bleeding/colicking of course i would 100% drop everything to sort it. But on an average day, no way am i wasting time or effort dealing with other peoples ignorant horses (which is why i wouldnt be on a yard without some sort of staff to do it).

i suppose i wouldnt have a problem if it was an easy horse and i could bring our 2 plus 1 in together..................but then where do you draw the line, can you say to someone "i left your horse out because its got no manners and i CBA to deal with it"?! probably best to not do it full stop for any horse i guess!!!! although it might make the owner wise up and sort it out!

this is all hypothetical thankfully as mine are at home and only livery pony is a gem to handle!


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## equestriansports (19 June 2014)

After sitting and reading this thread for a decent hour (in between watching I Wanna Marry Harry) I find it absolutely ridiculous. If I was perhaps more confident with other horses then sure, once in a blue moon I'd be like okay, brave pants on, deep breath, think positive, off we go.. though I'd be more inclined to scrap my plans of bringing my horse in to avoid handling some horses at my yard.
My horse is an absolute saint. Rarely silly though will occasionally walk very quickly back to the stable (keep in mind I'm 5'0 worth of short legs!) I still wouldn't want other people handling him in case something really did scare him and he freaked out. He does sometimes flick his left hind out in the field if a horse gets up his bum although he wouldn't dream of doing this to someone. There are some young girls at my yard that have little experience in handling horses who I really wouldn't want touching my horse as he is very sensitive and can be headshy if you move quickly or make sudden loud noises.
I do see how this could work but certainly wouldn't be a happy bunny if this was to be enforced at my yard.


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## pip6 (19 June 2014)

Last DIY I was at had this issue. They started putting another mare in our field of 3, who was huge, rude, aggressive, would box, owner scared of it (wouldn't even ride it). You went to catch your horse and it was being aggressive trying to dominate you at the gate to get in, ruddy dangerous tbh. Friend had her quiet welsh cob on walker which bordered field (with 6' post and rail around walker), this mare took exception to it and doubled barrelled fence and kept lash out until it has wrecked fence. Horse genuinely dangerous. Owner only worked part time, didn't come down at regular times. I refused to ever handle this horse, for which yo & owner gave me massive grief. I told them it was dangerous and they didn't believe me. I heard after I left it went to box someone else who went in field. Can't help thinking 'told you so'. My life more important than staying on yard.
t 
I work, always came down at same time every day. Would have been easy for other owner to be there when I was, but she didn't care as long as she wasn't inconvenienced. Yo seemed to run yard around her for some reason I've never understood, rest of us were absolutely fine leaving ours out. We knew when people would be down and worked with it.


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## jenki13 (21 June 2014)

quirky said:



			Clueless!

How can you ensure your horse is never left alone when people do not have the common courtesy to tell you the routine they follow 99.9% of the time is changing?
Oh yes, never turn the horse out......just in case.

Don't know what makes you think I don't look after my own horse, her being led out to a field and back in again, does not make that groom a full time carer.

Yes, there are people on the yard who don't see their horse from one week to the next, that is their prerogative. Just as it is mine to see and ride mine everyday.
		
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Buy a companion for it. 
My horse has learnt to be out on her own, if she didn't I'd make arrangements so she always had company, that didn't rely on other people.

My horse gets a bit possessive around me & will kick out at other horses who don't listen to her warnings to move away. I wouldn't be able to lead two at a time so scenario: I take mine up & then go back to the field mate who is running round like a idiot, who then drags me out the field & disappears up the road to get to the yard, slips as he's galloping in & breaks a leg is it still my fault that he's injured? 

Also I wouldn't want every Tom, Dick & Harry bringing my horse in. I can lead her like a dog on the end of the rope even after not being out of the field for 2 months! My Dad who handles her on rare occasions also has no problem. My Aunt however always has a problem the Mare barges/tried to get away/was trampling everything on the yard/had to be controlled with food (just a few examples!) ... My aunt is experienced with horses & has 4 of my cousins to handle.


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