# "Wrong" show jumping team member going to Olympics?



## TPO (18 July 2021)

Firstly, please excuse the source 😬

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9798389/Nightclub-bosss-anger-daughters-Olympic-snub.html

The woman in question is apparently ranked 40 places higher than the travelling reserve and she has exceeded all of the selection criteria.

I don't follow show jumping at all so have no idea who ranks where in regards to team selections but this seems a bit odd if true?


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## CanteringCarrot (18 July 2021)

Now I wonder, out of pure ignorance, if we look at all other teams and reserves, are they all top ranking? If not, what are the gaps?

I know there are a variety of factors when assembling assembling Olympic team and reserves, but the 40 number/gap in rankings is a bit odd.


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## DiNozzo (18 July 2021)

Could it be horse experience/coping ability with the conditions in Tokyo are unknown vs known?


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## milliepops (18 July 2021)

pure speculation, but I would guess they would say something like that.  plus building a team is probably a part of it. the horse has to be right for the show, the rider has to be right for the team, etc...

in terms of other teams, i think the dressage one is about right re rankings?  I'm not up with the eventing stuff any more.


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## Rowreach (18 July 2021)

Hmm I wouldn’t call the Charles family “old guard”, given what Peter had to go through before being accepted into the GB squad. Head down, work hard, show them what they’re missing was his attitude. 

Harry’s record since breaking into children on horses has been exceptional, and he’s only just 22. He has shown he can ride a range of horses in tough international competition, plus he has the backing of a Gold medal winning Olympian in the family, which must be handy in terms of all round preparation, so he’s a good choice for travelling reserve imo.

Sounds like sour grapes from a bloke who thinks money buys everything. I doubt he’s done his daughter any favours for the future.


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## Kat (18 July 2021)

milliepops said:



			pure speculation, but I would guess they would say something like that.  plus building a team is probably a part of it. the horse has to be right for the show, the rider has to be right for the team, etc...

in terms of other teams, i think the dressage one is about right re rankings?  I'm not up with the eventing stuff any more.
		
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The eventing one is about right, no surprises really, there is a huge choice at the top and perhaps a bit of a surprise that Ros Canter isn't going but I think it is fairly well known that AllstarB would find the conditions and travel tough.

I don't follow show jumping that closely but will see if I can get any inside gossip from someone I know.

The article is a bit odd. Lots of talk about dynasties when only the traveling reserve is from a sj family, not a single Whitaker is going this time. 

They also seem to be under a misapprehension about what the world class development pathway means.

I'm not sure you can blame chauvinism when we have our first female SJ team member.

There are lots of high profile experienced riders who aren't going, and world ranking points aren't the only selection criteria.


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## Rowreach (18 July 2021)

Much more likely to be a dynasty thing at future Olympics if the rest of Peter’s children carry on as they’re doing currently 😂


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## shortstuff99 (18 July 2021)

I can see her point though, must be a bit of a kick in the teeth when you were the integral member of getting the team finally qualified for the Olympics, kept up your great form and then not be selected?


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## Ambers Echo (18 July 2021)

I think the horse world is incredibly cliquey. Even at pony club, the same kids got the better instructors, the better times, team selection, invites to senior camp etc. I abandoned PC a while ago as I got so sick of Katie being put with far more novice riders, overlooked for camps and comps and just jumping cross poles, when she had already been out competing successfully. PC can be amazing or a complete waste of time, effort and money depending on who you are. In my experience anyway.

I imagine those attitudes are entirely unconscious. Bias usually is unconscious not deliberate but the impact is the same. 

That unconscious bias/attitude going up through all the levels would not surprise me in the least.


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## Ambers Echo (18 July 2021)

ETA the attitude that 'non horsey' people should not be involved typifies the problem. Gareth Southgate has a load of non footballing pros who advise him: Kath Grainger, Mathew Syed, David Braillsford. Southgate was roundly condemned for including non footballing people. But it is well known that using people who think like you already turns organisations into echo chambers. Far better to have divergence of opinion and critical thinking from outside the world of showjumping. They seriously need to recognise how outdated and damaging letting he old guard runs things forever is. 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-57698821


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## Rowreach (18 July 2021)

Ambers Echo said:



			ETA the attitude that 'non horsey' people should not be involved typifies the problem. Gareth Southgate has a load of non footballing pros who advise him: Kath Grainger, Mathew Syed, David Braillsford. Southgate was roundly condemned for including non footballing people. But it is well known that using people who think like you already turns organisations into echo chambers. Far better to have divergence of opinion and critical thinking from outside the world of showjumping. They seriously need to recognise how outdated and damaging letting he old guard runs things forever is.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-57698821

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Pete grew up in Bootle in a non horsey family.


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## Goldenstar (18 July 2021)

Honestly there’s a huge list of things that could have led to to the choice .
Top of the list the horse it’s soundness and type .
Position in rankings can be greatly effected by your firepower horse wise lots of horses its easier to get up there .
But do I think it helps in showjumping to be from the right sort of SJ dynasty , I sure do .


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## teapot (18 July 2021)

Could be 101 different reasons right down to how much family members throw their weight around.


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## shortstuff99 (18 July 2021)

teapot said:



			Could be 101 different reasons right down to how much family members throw their weight around.

Also Harry Charles is the travelling reserve, and Emily Moffitt didnt make the long list...
		
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I thought she was a non-travelling reserve?


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## teapot (18 July 2021)

shortstuff99 said:



			I thought she was a non-travelling reserve?
		
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Oh must have scrolled past her - ok so she made the long list with three others that Harry was selected over to actually travel though (plus William who broke his ankle).


*William Funnell* (55) based in Dorking, Surrey, with The Billy Stud’s *Equine America Billy Diamo* (chestnut, gelding, 16.1hh, 11yrs, Cevin Z x Andiamo, Breeders: William Funnell and Donal Barnwell GBR)
*Emily Moffitt* (22) based in Evesham, Worcestershire, with Poden Farms and Neil and Heidi Moffitt’s *Winning Good* (bay, gelding., 16.3hh, 12yrs, Winningmood x Sir Corland, Breeder: WFM van Gestel NED)
*Alexandra Thornton* (28) based in Valkenswaard, The Netherlands with Dunwalke Ltd’s* Cornetto K* (dark bay, gelding, 16.2hh, 15yrs, Cornet Obolensky x Calido, Breeder: Johann Krull NED)
*Ellen Whitaker* (35) based in Barnsley, South Yorkshire and Europe, with Norman Oley’s *Arena UK Winston* (black, gelding, 17hh, 12yrs, s. Waldo van Dungen x Hamilton Tropics, Breeder: Brenda Morelli IRL)
*James Wilson* (26) based in Frome, Somerset and Europe, with Heather Larson and Susan Larson’s *Imagine de Muze* (black, mare, 16.2hh, 13yrs, s. Nabab de Reve x Chin Chin, Breeder: Joris De Brabander BEL)
Actual team:

*Scott Brash* (34) based in Horsham, West Sussex, with Lady Pauline Harris and Lady Pauline Kirkham’s *Hello Jefferson* (bay, gelding, 16.1hh, 12yrs, s. Cooper van de Heffink, Breeder: Bernard Mols BEL)
*Ben Maher* (38) based in Bishop Stortford, Hertfordshire, with Charlotte Rossetter, Pamela Wright and his own *Explosion W* (chestnut, gelding, 16.1hh, 12yrs, Chacco-Blue x Baloubet de Rouet, Breeder: W Wijnen NED)
*Holly Smith* (30) based in Loughborough, Leicestershire, with Ian Dowie’s *Denver* (bay, gelding, 17.1hh, 13yrs, Albfueheren’s Memphis x Chico’s Boy, Breeder: MG and AA Woertman NED)
*Harry Charles* (22) based in Alton, Hampshire, with Ann Thompson and his own *Romeo 88* (bay, gelding, 17hh, 12yrs, Contact van de Heffinck x Orlando, Breeder: Picobello Horses BEL) (travelling reserve)


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## Rowreach (18 July 2021)

I wonder if anyone else’s daddy will kick off.


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## Goldenstar (18 July 2021)

TBH who knows and who cares SJing ruined itself years ago .


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## shortstuff99 (18 July 2021)

The response from BEF is quite weird to me and kind of admits that they do what they like?

I've spent a long time in the horse world from PC up and it is mostly who you know. I know other sports can be as bad but horse sports already have a reputation as elitist and then they don't do anything to dispel it.


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## teapot (18 July 2021)

Having just read the rest of the article he clearly has no idea how the world development pathway works


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## TGM (18 July 2021)

I think it is a difficult one, we see this time and time again with team selection (although perhaps not with such a tantrum from the enraged parent)!  Selection of team members is not solely done on rankings - it also takes account of things like how well riders work together in a team, how well their horses cope with long distance travel, etc.  While people call for transparency, it is difficult for the governing body to give their real reasons for inclusion or not in a team.  For example, they can't really say 'we haven't included Bessie Blogs because she has proved to be a real diva, doesn't follow instructions and upsets the rest of the team'.  (Not saying that is the case here, but sometimes the reasons are not always able to be publicly stated).  

And yes I've seen similar in PC/RC teams.  Yes there are cases whether people are left out for the wrong reasons, but often team organisers go for people who are real team players, easy to deal with and consistent results rather than the high flyer with pushy parents who upset the equilibrium of the whole team and have the potential to let the whole team down if things don't go their way.


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## Nicnac (18 July 2021)

The fact he hired a QC to challenge the selection and didn't win speaks volumes.  It's tough but to have made the long list is pretty awesome imo.  You can't buy your place.

These are the top 10 Eventers in 2021: 

1st*Tom McEwen*GBR - Great Britain619
2nd*Piggy March*GBR - Great Britain599
3rd*Tim PriceNZL* - 
4th*Oliver Townend*GBR - Great Britain477
5th*Jonelle PriceNZL*
6th*Harry Meade*GBR - Great Britain463
7th*Tom Jackson*GBR - Great Britain445
8th*Laura Collett*GBR - Great Britain422
9th*Bubby Upton*GBR - Great Britain376
10th=*Izzy Taylor*GBR - Great Britain365

So following his theory team should have been Tom, Piggy and Oliver whereas Laura wouldn't have been selected as both Harry and Tom are higher ranked.   Actual selection is Tom,Oli and Laura with Piggy as travelling reserve.


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## Ambers Echo (18 July 2021)

The eventing one makes a lot more sense - it’s not just on ranking, of course and all the selected rider are ranked very high. 

But 40 places is a hell of a lot of places!
Not being a team player could be a factor. But also absolutely ripe for unconscious bias. It’s a short hop from ‘not really one of the team’ to ‘not really one of us’.

I don’t know why any individual does/doesn’t get selected but the comments about ‘what Peter had to go through to be accepted’ suggests he found it uphill going too. Credit to him for making it but maybe it shouldn’t have been so hard for him?


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## Rowreach (18 July 2021)

Ambers Echo said:



			The eventing one makes a lot more sense - it’s not just on ranking, of course and all the selected rider are ranked very high.

But 40 places is a hell of a lot of places!
Not being a team player could be a factor. But also absolutely ripe for unconscious bias. It’s a short hop from ‘not really one of the team’ to ‘not really one of us’.

I don’t know why any individual does/doesn’t get selected but the comments about ‘what Peter had to go through to be accepted’ suggests he found it uphill going too. Credit to him for making it but maybe it shouldn’t have been so hard for him?
		
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My point was that he was never one of the old guard of sj families, and therefore the implication that that was why Harry was selected was ridiculous.

imo PC should never have had to take the route he did to get on the GB squad (although it would be quite nice having his whole family on the Irish one).

In any sport there are only x number of spots to be filled. The best athletes suck it up and prove why they should get one.


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## ycbm (18 July 2021)

Rowreach said:



			My point was that [Peter Charles] was never one of the old guard of sj families, and therefore the implication that that was why Harry was selected was ridiculous.
		
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But Harry is the son of someone who did make it,  however he made it,  and so he is now yet another one from a showjumping family dynasty.

It must be completely gutting to be a member of the team that got the qualification,  then dropped for someone 40 paces below you in the rankings even though you haven't lost your own form.  I think her father has a point.  
.


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## spacefaer (18 July 2021)

Her father may have a point but I'm not sure going to the Daily Mail is the right way to assert it, or to get her
selected in the future.
Would you pick a team player, with a back up team that works well within the teams unit, or one who's father has already used a QC to bully his point home?


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## teapot (18 July 2021)

ycbm said:



			But Harry is the son of someone who did make it,  however he made it,  and so he is now yet another one from a showjumping family dynasty.

It must be completely gutting to be a member of the team that got the qualification,  then dropped for someone 40 paces below you in the rankings even though you haven't lost your own form.  I think her father has a point.
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Getting the qualification is just that though - qualifying a nation to compete. It doesn't guarantee the individual anything, especially not when the event is a year later than planned.


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## Rowreach (18 July 2021)

ycbm said:



			But Harry is the son of someone who did make it,  however he made it,  and so he is now yet another one from a showjumping family dynasty.

It must be completely gutting to be a member of the team that got the qualification,  then dropped for someone 40 paces below you in the rankings even though you haven't lost your own form.  I think her father has a point. 
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Well your first point is arguable both ways.  But as has been pointed out by several posters, selection is based on many many things, not just rider ranking.

It is the bane of any selector/coach's life, that regardless of their decisions, someone won't be happy.  And if she's selected for something else, will someone else's parent come along and suggest that the selectors have bowed to parental pressure?

Any athlete that gains a rep as too much like hard work is quite likely to never be considered for anything.


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## ycbm (18 July 2021)

Rowreach said:



			Well your first point is arguable both ways.  But as has been pointed out by several posters, selection is based on many many things, not just rider ranking.

It is the bane of any selector/coach's life, that regardless of their decisions, someone won't be happy.  And if she's selected for something else, will someone else's parent come along and suggest that the selectors have bowed to parental pressure?

Any athlete that gains a rep as too much like hard work is quite likely to never be considered for anything.
		
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I get your point and I'm not criticising the selectors' decision,  the basis of which I don't know and they have an unenviable task.   I was just  empathising with the rider, I can see why she would be upset about the situation.

Luckily it's not a position I'm ever likely to be in myself 🤣
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## Rowreach (18 July 2021)

ycbm said:



			I get your point and I'm not criticising the selectors' decision,  the basis of which I don't know and they have an unenviable task.   I was just  empathising with the rider, I can see why she would be upset about the situation.

Luckily it's not a position I'm ever likely to be in myself 🤣
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Nor me 😁 but as a parent of an athlete, and a coach (not horse sport) I think there are better ways to support your offspring when they don’t get selected than going to the HC and waving your cheque book around. He sounds like the sort of parent I’d run a mile to get away from 😳


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## SO1 (18 July 2021)

I can see why she was upset and presume part of the problem may have been poor communication as to why she was not selected.

If she has no idea as to why she was not selected and someone 40 places lower in the rankings was and her ambition is to be part of the Olympic team then she needs transparent feedback so she can improve her performance or make changes in order to fulfill her dream. It maybe that if she came to SJ later in life that she does not have the experience some of the other riders do who have come up through the ponies and that was taken into consideration not just recent form.


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## hobo (18 July 2021)

I do not think daddy shouting is going to help her in the future she needs to tell him to button it she is young there will be other chances. Picking a team must be a nightmare.
The way things are going hardly anyone will be fit to compete anyway they will all be isolating!


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## teapot (18 July 2021)

I don't follow showjumping so does anyone know if the horse, rider, and horse rider has been tested over four rounds? The Olympics is a different comp to most in that respect, let alone factor in Tokyo temps etc


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## humblepie (19 July 2021)

With show jumping not being on the BBC these days and not having competed show jumping for years, I am so out of touch with it - I recognise the names of those picked and think Harry has done amazingly well in teams hasn't he ? but some of the names I haven't even heard of.    It is such a disconnect these days unless you are actively involved in a sport, which can't be good for the sport as a whole.


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## TGM (19 July 2021)

Just an observation on the FEI rankings - they have been affected by both Covid and EHV.  I note that Emily was able to continue competing and gaining in the results in the USA (presumably because she had the funds to do so).   Harry, on the other hand, has a two month gap in his results when the European EHV crisis was on.  Surely this was taken into account by the selectors when assessing positions in the rankings.


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## Ambers Echo (19 July 2021)

That's interesting. Yes that might make a lot of difference.


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## NinjaPony (19 July 2021)

Honestly regardless of the wrongs and rights of the team selection, it does seem to highlight just how reliant showjumping is on big money and/or nepotism. And yes I know it’s hardly unique in that respect, but it does seem to be more noticeable than in other equestrian sports, and that makes it feel quite ‘closed’ to outsiders.


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## ownedbyaconnie (19 July 2021)

Ah the classic “daily Mail sad face” photo.


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## YorkshireLady (20 July 2021)

well the team selection criteria is available to read...

https://www.britishshowjumping.co.uk/_files/V2 Final Jumping Selection Policy 2020 Games.pdf

look at the last 2 bullets perhaps as well as other criteria


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## myheartinahoofbeat (21 July 2021)

Selection can be further complicated by the all important owners whose wishes have to be considered as well. This is what has happened to Piggy March who is now out of the eventing team. Although this doesn't apply to Emily because I assume her Dad owns her horses.


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## eahotson (13 August 2021)

Perhaps the selection criteria should be more transparent.


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## spacefaer (13 August 2021)

eahotson said:



			Perhaps the selection criteria should be more transparent.
		
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It's very clear if you read post no 38 

The penultimate requirement seems to rule Emily out by virtue of her father's behaviour!


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## eahotson (13 August 2021)

The show jumping sscene has changed a lot.Most of the old timers like Harvey Smith\John Whitaker etc.didn't come from horsey background although Johns mother ran a riding school.Horses were much more varied.Remember Ryan's Son?There wasn't as much money around and the whole thing was much more amateur.It is much more professional now an there is a huge amount of money in it.


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## eahotson (13 August 2021)

spacefaer said:



			It's very clear if you read post no 38

The penultimate requirement seems to rule Emily out by virtue of her father's behaviour!
		
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So she is responsible for her father's behaviour??


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## shortstuff99 (13 August 2021)

She has been selected for the European championships so her Dad's 'behaviour' hasn't ruled her out from future teams.


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## TGM (13 August 2021)

eahotson said:



			So she is responsible for her father's behaviour??
		
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Given the wording in the document, I think any potential team member should be aware that the actions of anyone in their 'support team' (whether relative or employee) might be taken into account when selection decisions are made.  It would be different, of course, if her father was not actively involved in her support team.


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## eahotson (13 August 2021)

As far as


TGM said:



			Given the wording in the document, I think any potential team member should be aware that the actions of anyone in their 'support team' (whether relative or employee) might be taken into account when selection decisions are made.  It would be different, of course, if her father was not actively involved in her support team.
		
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As far as I can make out her father intervened only after she wasn't selected.


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## teapot (13 August 2021)

shortstuff99 said:



			She has been selected for the European championships so her Dad's 'behaviour' hasn't ruled her out from future teams.
		
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Euros close to home are very different to an Olympic environment though. 

It's a very baby team going to the Euros too I noticed.


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## Rowreach (13 August 2021)

eahotson said:



			The show jumping sscene has changed a lot.Most of the old timers like Harvey Smith\John Whitaker etc.didn't come from horsey background although Johns mother ran a riding school.Horses were much more varied.Remember Ryan's Son?There wasn't as much money around and the whole thing was much more amateur.It is much more professional now an there is a huge amount of money in it.
		
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They were all dealers and farmers and bought and sold horses in order to fund the sj'ing.  And of course it was seasonal back then, you went round the shows in the summer months and there were few indoor shows and a definite closed season when most of them dealt in hunters.  Quite a few of the horses did both jobs.  Some of them even pulled carts!


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## oldie48 (15 August 2021)

I don't understand how the FEI rankings work but if a rider has more horses competing then do they all count? If this is so then the ranking is not that relevant as it's about choosing the right rider/horse combination for the competition and the team.


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## Winters100 (23 August 2021)

I suppose if it were just done on rankings then there would be no need for a selection committee.  And rankings can presumably be affected by many things, such as having your top horse out for a period, or recovering from illness or injury yourself.  

I would presume that it is, in many ways, no different to hiring employees. One does not always take the most qualified, but also would consider work ethic, how they will fit into the existing team, personality etc 

I don't want to be unkind, but this article has not presented her in a good light. If she feels that she truly deserves a place on the team she should deal with it herself. Right now all anyone outside her circle can see is an adult woman, who competes using Daddy's money, and then has Daddy complaining that she was not selected.  To be honest that would put me off hiring her in any capacity, let alone for a high pressure sports team.


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