# Arthritis - remedial shoeing or barefoot



## MissJessica (24 September 2016)

As the title says...

Reasons for both please?
Never considered barefoot before.


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## ester (24 September 2016)

arthritis where? what sort of shoeing? 

barefoot means the horse 1) can develop a fairly good shock absorber system, 2) can develop a hoof that may not be symmetrical but provide a supportive system, for instance the side mine has a hock spavin on he has generated his own small lateral extension.


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## MissJessica (24 September 2016)

Pastern arthrtis


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## planete (24 September 2016)

As far as I understand, increasing breakover and minimising concussion are important as well as keeping the foot balanced. I  would personally prefer to try and achieve this barefoot but it would depend on how skilled a trimmer I could find and whether I could supply the optimum environment for a barefoot horse to thrive.  It may be that the only skilled professional around is a remedial farrier in which case I would use him/her.  Having the very best professional to look after this horse's feet would be the priority for me.


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## AmberThePony (24 September 2016)

This post has just made me think, what would be best for hock arthritis?


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## ycbm (24 September 2016)

I've had a horse with arthritis on the hocks barefoot, and I saw his feet change from week to week with the weather conditions. When it was damp and cold and his hocks hurt he grew feet that were deeper on one side than the other, to suit what he needed that week.

For that reason, I would not shoe a horse with arthritis, but neither would I allow a trimmer to 'balance' his feet for him. 

Some horses do not find barefoot easy to adapt to. Some livery yards are not easy places to make it work.


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## applecart14 (25 September 2016)

ycbm said:



			I've had a horse with arthritis on the hocks barefoot, and I saw his feet change from week to week with the weather conditions. When it was damp and cold and his hocks hurt he grew feet that were deeper on one side than the other, to suit what he needed that week.

For that reason, I would not shoe a horse with arthritis, but neither would I allow a trimmer to 'balance' his feet for him. 

Some horses do not find barefoot easy to adapt to. Some livery yards are not easy places to make it work.
		
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 i think the last paragraph is important. i had a horse on six wks box rest which i had to walk out in hand twice daily. was due to be shod so farrier suggested taking shoes off for a rest. was happy with this suggestion only to get a call from the yard owner on the 2nd day to say horse lying prone in stable groaning and sweating in pain due to the flinty track he had to be walked on and the fact he couldnt cope without shoes. he had to be buted and i gave him a week or so to see if he would adapt and also as i couldnt get the farrier out. Maybe with time he may have adapted but it became clear quite quickly he couldnt have coped with the pain. but they are all different. i dont know enough about BF tbh. present horse with sucessfully ethanol fused hocks has lateral extensions which he had years ago for a time and then coped for five or six years without very well. he now has them for foot placement issues and now places the foot much much better. due to exp with previous horse i personally wouldnt go down that route again but can understand how it might benefit some horses. think WB's can be quite sensitive to change they can be quite a challenge!


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## JillA (25 September 2016)

I think good hoof boots are the key - very few horses can cope with stony ground to begin with and it is a shame to abandon bf because of that if there are going to be big benefits longer term


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## BethH (25 September 2016)

My horse had KS as a baby 11yrs ago which was successfully operated on and then had suspected spavins caused by poor farriery a couple of years ago so he is a prime case where everyone says ooh - probably wouldn't take his shoes off!

I took him barefoot 3yrs ago (slightly against vet advice because of his KS history and they wanted shoeing with wedges) as I felt it was better for his whole body health and the vets didn't really want to understand how he was compromised with shoddy foot balance.  Diet and environment are key, you need to have access to all the different types of terrain.  We have had waves of it working & not working and at the moment vet wants shoes as think footiness is causing soreness in pelvis but I have found a good remedial farrier who understands how to manage his heels and is supporting my efforts to keep him barefoot.  I have moved yards with access to much better hacking have been gradually starting to work him and his feet have suddenly toughened up, frogs on the back feet have doubled in width showing me his is starting to use himself correctly again and I have worked him gently for 5days in a row this week and his back isn't sore.

I guess in a nutshell, get the foot trimming right and make sure he has the right environment and IMHO (given how tough my horse's journey has been over the last couple of years) barefoot is better for their health in so many ways.  I never regretted operating for KS despite everyone telling me to PTS and I am glad I am persevering barefoot despite everyone telling me to shoe.  Taking the easy option isn't always the right answer.  Barefoot can be hard work but the knowledge I have gained and the twinkle in my horse's eye tells me I'm on the right track.  Hopefully he will continue onwards and upwards!


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## ester (25 September 2016)

TBF walking a horse on a flinty track the day after taking the shoes off without making sure the horse was ok on more forgiving surfaces or using other forms of protection is a bit bonkers and asking for trouble and rather unnecessary.  That is not how to try a horse without shoes OP! Most of us do not end up with them groaning in pain because you manage their access to surfaces and boot as required.


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## stencilface (25 September 2016)

Exactly ester.


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## Pc2003 (25 September 2016)

My horse has hock arthritis and has been very successfully taken barefoot. He was due to be pts so it really has been a game changer for us


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## FfionWinnie (25 September 2016)

I can't see how shoes can ever really be better for joints than the shock absorbing amazing structure that is a healthy foot. 

Yes it's harder for some than others to achieve that but it's what I would always do first with all my horses.


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## applecart14 (25 September 2016)

ester said:



			TBF walking a horse on a flinty track the day after taking the shoes off without making sure the horse was ok on more forgiving surfaces or using other forms of protection is a bit bonkers and asking for trouble and rather unnecessary.  That is not how to try a horse without shoes OP! Most of us do not end up with them groaning in pain because you manage their access to surfaces and boot as required.
		
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thx for that Ester. The vet said with his injury he couldnt go in the school and had to be walked up the drive in hand down the lane and back. this was 16 yrs ago now and the vet probably hadnt realised the significance of the drive in the over picture as he had not anticipated the farrier suggesting to take of the shoes. but i dont think he was the type of horse that would have coped BF anyway.


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## soloequestrian (25 September 2016)

Barefoot - allows the horse to grow the hoof it needs to give support where necessary and change as necessary.  There is no way even the best farrier can achieve this.


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## MissJessica (25 September 2016)

Can anyone tell me how they went barefoot? Their journey?

I've been told removing the shoes and not trimming is recommended & this will reduce any immediate soreness. I think coming into winter would also be an ideal time. Re ground softening. 

Do you remove backs first, then fronts weeks later or both together?


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## ester (25 September 2016)

Just didn't want the OP to think that was typical or how to do it AC as it seemed to be lacking common sense all round I was fairly gobsmacked to read that! I really don't think that was the sort of livery yard situation ycbm was getting at, more lack of control over grazing and turnout. 

MissJessica. 
aged 19 November 2011 I think! Frank went lame in front, he lost his medium trots then went proper lame, blocked to coffin joint (no arthritis on xray) , pedal bones reverse rotated in both feet, heels under run as farrier been shoeing short. Treated with steroids into the coffin joint and bar shod. 

After 2 shoeing cycles heels and other angles all looked much better but the minute work increased to include trotting he went off again. 

Now having frequented this forum a fair bit by then I had decided if he had a navicular diagnosis the shoes would come off, that wasn't the diagnosis and vet seemed to think it would be a simple fix hence sticking with the shoes but I did say I wouldn't give them a chance for long. 

Slow motion footage gave some indication as to why although both looked equally bad on xray only one was lame, he was landing very laterally on that hoof so suspect at least some collateral ligament damage. 

Shoes came off in the March and we started 5 mins daily in hand walking on smooth tarmac and we installed a track round the edge of the field (just with elec tape) to limit grazing and encourage movement. Walking increased slowly
After 6 weeks he went sore, this is fairly usual as the feet 'wake up' and become more sensitive. So at that point he was booted in easyboot gloves for most of his work just doing 5 mins or so a day without. 

Cantered when we had some rain and the ground softened in the september, started doing some schooling in the october (everything had been in straight lines until then) went out to dressage in the november and never looked back. We moved to wilts 3 years ago and the more he did the better his feet were, hunted once every fortnight or so the last couple of seasons. 

He has just retired to hacking aged 23 but that is because of a problem with his annular ligaments behind, no one has ever spotted a front hoof problem again! We had another 4 years I never anticipated!

He has never had amazing sole concavity but better than we started, and thick, so his pedal bones probably aren't in ideal position but he lost the bull nosed look to his front feet so presumed they are better situated than when we started.

If you aren't dealing with a current in front lameness issue you could take hinds off first, a fair few will step out of hinds without any trouble  we certainly never booted behind.


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## MissJessica (25 September 2016)

Excellent Ester. Thank you, such positive reading. 

I unfortunately can't follow your great advise the turnout but I love what you did with the field


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## JillA (25 September 2016)

Mine has always had thin soles, and doesn't do hacking so although he often went without shoes it was mainly in the field or the school. LAst August he developed acute laminitis and on vet advice I had him shod by local remedial farrier with heartbars. They supported his pedal bone through the risky stage but I was clear I didn't want him in them for the rest of his days. So in April a very good EP removed them and he went into boots and pads, for turnout as well as anything else because X rays still showed some sinkage. The pads provided the support and the boots protected his soles.
He is developing thicker soles than he ever had before, thanks to the stimulation of now being in the (dry) paddock without his boots, and perfectly sound. The change in the angle of growth was clearly visible and is now almost a complete new foot.
The main problem with not trimming when the shoes come off is that you need to measure post trim for boots, and boots really can be the key to keeping them comfortable while their feet adjust. There are several pads you can insert to start with soft supportive ones and then adjust through to the hardest ones or even no pads at all.


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## ester (25 September 2016)

Yes I can't remember what we did with that, I know that trimmer brought a fit kit with her for easycare, I wonder if that was at second visit and then I ordered asap. We didn't trim on first visit. F is a bit odd though as he still fits the same size gloves he did back then!


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## applecart14 (26 September 2016)

ester said:



			Just didn't want the OP to think that was typical or how to do it AC as it seemed to be lacking common sense all round I was fairly gobsmacked to read that! I really don't think that was the sort of livery yard situation ycbm was getting at, more lack of control over grazing and turnout. 

MissJessica. 
aged 19 November 2011 I think! Frank went lame in front, he lost his medium trots then went proper lame, blocked to coffin joint (no arthritis on xray) , pedal bones reverse rotated in both feet, heels under run as farrier been shoeing short. Treated with steroids into the coffin joint and bar shod. 

After 2 shoeing cycles heels and other angles all looked much better but the minute work increased to include trotting he went off again. 

Now having frequented this forum a fair bit by then I had decided if he had a navicular diagnosis the shoes would come off, that wasn't the diagnosis and vet seemed to think it would be a simple fix hence sticking with the shoes but I did say I wouldn't give them a chance for long. 

Slow motion footage gave some indication as to why although both looked equally bad on xray only one was lame, he was landing very laterally on that hoof so suspect at least some collateral ligament damage. 

Shoes came off in the March and we started 5 mins daily in hand walking on smooth tarmac and we installed a track round the edge of the field (just with elec tape) to limit grazing and encourage movement. Walking increased slowly
After 6 weeks he went sore, this is fairly usual as the feet 'wake up' and become more sensitive. So at that point he was booted in easyboot gloves for most of his work just doing 5 mins or so a day without. 

Cantered when we had some rain and the ground softened in the september, started doing some schooling in the october (everything had been in straight lines until then) went out to dressage in the november and never looked back. We moved to wilts 3 years ago and the more he did the better his feet were, hunted once every fortnight or so the last couple of seasons. 

He has just retired to hacking aged 23 but that is because of a problem with his annular ligaments behind, no one has ever spotted a front hoof problem again! We had another 4 years I never anticipated!

He has never had amazing sole concavity but better than we started, and thick, so his pedal bones probably aren't in ideal position but he lost the bull nosed look to his front feet so presumed they are better situated than when we started.

If you aren't dealing with a current in front lameness issue you could take hinds off first, a fair few will step out of hinds without any trouble  we certainly never booted behind.
		
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Hi Ester.  So far you have described my actions as bonkers and also lacking common sense. I think that is a shame when I was going on the advice of my farrier who is a professional and I didn't think to question him. I was told he might be foot sore but I did not think to question this statement as I had never done this before.  I took appropriate action as soon as the horse was hurting by giving him pain relief and the farrier was called immediately although he couldn't come out as I was told he had a weeks waiting list and in desperation I contacted another farrier who was due on the yard later that week.  The horse was bedded on deep shavings bed and I did everything I could to ensure he was as comfortable as possible.  

I can't change the past.  None of us are perfect, we all make mistakes and we learn from our mistakes by doing so.


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## Casey76 (26 September 2016)

My horse had been barefoot for 6 years when he was diagnosed with an aggravation to an existing spavin.  He had remedial shoeing for 1 year (rocked toes in the front and high heels at the back which slowly decreased in height).  After about a year, he was 100% sound, so the shoes came off, and we went back to being barefoot.

Pinto never had any issues with transitioning, he just continued on.  The only thing which changed was the width of his frogs, but he was never footy.


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## ester (26 September 2016)

applecart14 said:



			Hi Ester.  So far you have described my actions as bonkers and also lacking common sense. I think that is a shame when I was going on the advice of my farrier who is a professional and I didn't think to question him. I was told he might be foot sore but I did not think to question this statement as I had never done this before.  I took appropriate action as soon as the horse was hurting by giving him pain relief and the farrier was called immediately although he couldn't come out as I was told he had a weeks waiting list and in desperation I contacted another farrier who was due on the yard later that week.  The horse was bedded on deep shavings bed and I did everything I could to ensure he was as comfortable as possible.  

I can't change the past.  None of us are perfect, we all make mistakes and we learn from our mistakes by doing so.
		
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Do you think it showed common sense to take a horse's shoes off and it be walked up and down a flinty track straight after? If you do that is fine but it defies logic to me - I didn't say it was you lacking the common sense or you being bonkers I am just as shocked that the yard staff apparently carried on without much thought. If the farrier didn't know where the horse was going to be walking perhaps that is why his professional advice didn't fit the situation. You know I am one of the biggest barefoot advocates out there, it has given me and Frank years extra and I wouldn't want someone to be put off by your description of your horse recumbent in pain because mistakes were made as you say and the situation totally avoidable. I am not questioning the action you took afterwards I am questioning the fact that no one who knew that was where the horse was going to be required to walk, thought that might be an issue before continuing. 

That is not a normal situation for anyone doing a barefoot rehab to get into.


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## FlashyP (26 September 2016)

Slightly off topic, but I was interested to read that a lateral landing could be a sign of ligament damage. I have often heard that the medial-lateral balance is important, but never knew what an imbalance could be a sign of. I've slo-mo video-ed my horse and she lands laterally on one front hoof.


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## ycbm (27 September 2016)

FlashyP said:



			Slightly off topic, but I was interested to read that a lateral landing could be a sign of ligament damage. I have often heard that the medial-lateral balance is important, but never knew what an imbalance could be a sign of. I've slo-mo video-ed my horse and she lands laterally on one front hoof.
		
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Is she shod?  If she is shod and continues to be shod the same way you are risking collateral ligament strain inside the foot.

If she is not shod, and she has a trimmer, then stop whoever is trying to 'balance' her foot from trimming. If yon leave her completely untrimmed and work her on some abrasive surfaces then she should stop the lateral landing.

Have a look at rockleyfarm.blogspot.com for lateral imbalance if you want to know more.


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## FlashyP (27 September 2016)

Sorry for hijacking your thread MissJessica!

ycbm - thanks for your reply, that is good advice and I will look for those posts on the Rockley blog. She was shod up until 10 days ago  My other pony was diagnosed with navicular syndrome and a ddft tear by MRI a couple of months ago and I am now trying to rehab her barefoot myself (after chatting to various people and studying the Rockley blog, etc.), this means I have been doing lots of slo-mo vids of her from the side and front (she lands beautifully heel first and with no med-lat imbalance!). So I thought I'd just check out my other horse on video, as having one lame horse on a rehab program is never enough  She is 18 yrs old and has been shod for most of the 8 years I've had her, she had started to be a bit uneven when she first starts trot work, but after a few strides looks fine, the physio seemed to think it'd be normal 'age-related' hoof issues and unless she gets worse not to worry about it. I had a major panic when I watched her videos as she landed completely toe first on her fronts. When I videoed her from the front she definitely lands on the lateral side of her right fore, flat on the left. So I whipped her shoes off (well a barefoot trimmer did) and after a couple of hairy days thinking I'd totally wrecked my horse, she is doing great, trotting and cantering in the field and school (just very short sessions in the school atm, but hooning around the field as usual) and is walking 10 mins a day on the tarmac. I had read that med-lat imbalances weren't good, but could not find out why anywhere. Thanks for the info I will keep on videoing and letting her 'tarmac-trim'


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## ester (27 September 2016)

age related hoof issues, pah  

Fwiw once shoes were off frank stopped landing laterally, in fact he actually does it more on the 'good' hoof now'. But sound. He rolls of laterally though so is a nightmare for getting long toes on the inside which is why he will never be self trimming.


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## nikkimariet (27 September 2016)

Please don't go down the remedial shoeing route J.

I'm sure there are exceptions to every case, but truly, I've yet to see one for myself.


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## FlashyP (27 September 2016)

ester said:



			age related hoof issues, pah  

Fwiw once shoes were off frank stopped landing laterally, in fact he actually does it more on the 'good' hoof now'. But sound. He rolls of laterally though so is a nightmare for getting long toes on the inside which is why he will never be self trimming.
		
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The odd thing is the few times I have had her in the school doing ground work since her shoes came off she has not looked uneven in trot at the start......but this seems a bit too good to be true, so I'm probably imaging it


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## stencilface (27 September 2016)

I'm also going to hijack this thread, sorry!

My sisters horse is 25, been shod full time since he was 4, he has upright boxy feet on chunky Connie x legs. Now he's starting with some arthritis, obviously uncomfortable during shoeing in his hinds and reluctant to pick one leg up I think due to having to weight bear on the other, although he is generally sound. He also slips behind and has fixed road studs at the back, and think he scuffs both back feet. 

I will get shot down in flames for suggesting when he next gets shod that they leave shoes off behind, but just want to check it's not a nuts idea before I raise it gently??!


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## ester (27 September 2016)

not bonkers 
the only thing I might do if he were mine and if I were thinking of poss taking them all off would be to cushings test just so I know where I stood on that front.


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## stencilface (27 September 2016)

Hmm, I don't think he has any symptoms of cushings, but yes worth thinking about. Regarding taking all four off, did you just see some pigs fly past there? We need to start slowly lol.


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## JillA (27 September 2016)

Go on.........make a proper job of it! And get some boots with the money you will save (as well as a decent trimmer) just in case he struggles for a week or two.


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## ester (27 September 2016)

Ha SF send JillA into talk to your family


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## stencilface (27 September 2016)

I don't think that would work! It's kind of a case of if it ain't broke don't fix it, but potentially given how much he'd done when we got him aged 4 he'd been shod since 3, he also has a very tubular shaped body which maybe suggests that working him that early didn't allow him to develop (this was 20 years ago now remember!). And now he's 25 he may need a slight regime change.  He has thin walled upright feet which can be tricky to shoe and it's been kind of accepted for years that he might be footy for a few days post shoeing due to nail bind, or something!

Yes, I know.

Fwiw my bf horse hasn't had his feet touched since he had his wedge shoes in December pre rockley. It will only take 4-5 years of no shoes to recoup the cost of rockley  but fingers crossed I'll save on the seemingly annual vets fees too


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## ester (27 September 2016)

Yeah, but then you end up buying new saddles you wouldn't have otherwise needed!!!


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## MissJessica (27 September 2016)

nikkimariet said:



			Please don't go down the remedial shoeing route J.

I'm sure there are exceptions to every case, but truly, I've yet to see one for myself.
		
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Thanks NikkiMariet <3 babbled onto Fran & spoken to my farrier, putting together a barefoot plan of action xx


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## stencilface (27 September 2016)

ester said:



			Yeah, but then you end up buying new saddles you wouldn't have otherwise needed!!!
		
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Yeah, but who doesn't need a new wardrobe every 10 years?! We all know horses are money pits!


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## stencilface (29 September 2016)

Well, went as expected with the mothership!

'He's always hated picking his legs up' and 'the farrier has to be careful in his thin walls to get the shoe on' 
Also 'his feet aren't as good as your horses, they crumble more'

Sigh. I'll work on my neutral phone voice and try my sister when I have the energy.


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## ester (29 September 2016)

With F's I said to vet he is struggling more to be trimmed, they said oh is he difficult for the farrier then? I said no me, that's how I know 

Letting go of his feet is a big thing now he has moved, and with me moving even further we are going to let the farrier have a go hoping he takes my guidance in the right way!


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