# Management of arthritis



## DD265 (15 July 2016)

Looking for any and all suggestions for things to consider 

So far I'm aware of:

- Bute (under veterinary advice we've started on 2x a day with the hope to go down to 0.5 a day)
- medicating joints not viable; vet felt we'd have too many to do and never get past the issues given age and history
- flat land is preferable but we live in the wrong place for that
- increasing movement
--- not sure whether we can manage a track system or not
--- field companion "pesters" which gets my boy moving a bit
--- thinking of adding a field shelter to make winter more comfortable but not sure whether this will reduce movement?
--- 24/7 turnout might be possible although pony was very happy with 3-5 hours turnout a day last winter and coped well (I'm blaming the deterioration on ridden work)
--- if not 24/7 turnout we'll look to do longer hours out then stable at night
- looking to switch from linseed oil to greater quantities of linseed meal
- already on a joint supplement (CortaVet) and turmeric
- has regular SCENAR
- haven't tried magnetic therapy but not convinced
- barefoot (was booted for ridden work)
- exercise
--- may or may not come back into work
--- if he does, as I can't hack during the week in winter, I might look for somebody to hack him for me
--- long-ish but slow rides rather than short and fast
--- aware he'll need longer to warm up
--- thoughts on a circular horse walker?


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## Goldenstar (15 July 2016)

Have you looked at tildren and cartofen ?
Both drugs treat the whole horse but act differently .


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## DD265 (15 July 2016)

Goldenstar said:



			Have you looked at tildren and cartofen ?
Both drugs treat the whole horse but act differently .
		
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The vet mentioned them but said he thought D was past that point. I don't actually know what they are/do though so I'll do some research and if needs be get the vet back to discuss, thank you.


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## Pc2003 (15 July 2016)

My horse isn't medicated. When initially diagnosed tried both steroids and Tildren but neither worked. After years or trial and error he is now fully hacking sound in all paces. We mainly do a combo of some of your list, but to summarise 
- barefoot (prob made biggest difference)
- weight kept down
- reasonable turn out BUT does not do well in muddy, wet, cold conditions so t/o limited in winter as per ground conditions 
- bute as req, but normally only gets 1 sachet if staying in
- hacked as often as poss, even if just 15mins up road
- if going down a steep hill I get off
- don't trot/canter on hard or deep ground
- only school in walk as we have a rubbish surface
- don't lunge
- joint supplement (flex I joint)
- physo every 8 weeks
- saddle done every 4-6 months
- if he ever doesn't feel right (not happened in long time) then I get off straight away and turn him away for week to let things settle

The above may sound way ott but my horses case isn't straight forward and he was total right off/lou so we have muddled thru to find a way


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## DD265 (15 July 2016)

Pc2003 said:



			The above may sound way ott but my horses case isn't straight forward and he was total right off/lou so we have muddled thru to find a way
		
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I don't think it's OTT! I believe we ran into issues hacking because I'd asked him to slow down going downhill as he has a tendency to lengthen his stride and rush off. Getting off instead is definitely a good idea; luckily for me he'll stand like a rock against most things to be mounted again.


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## Pc2003 (15 July 2016)

For us it's been a lot of trial and error. I know a lot of horses have arthritis and can manage a fair level of work but never been the case with mine. 
The turnout thing has been really interesting. I initially moved him to a large field and he lived out 24/7 for the movement aspect..... Didn't work for us. He really seemed to hate standing in wet, muddy and cold conditions. Moved him back to a yard and winter turn out was restricted and he has done better than ever. I could ride him straight from stable with no issues really. 
At the time I did post here re winter turnout and arthritis and a lot of responses said their horses did better in than out in yuk conditions


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## YasandCrystal (16 July 2016)

My veteran mare is managed by living out 24/7, she has a field  shelter in which I put down a bed and she uses, but she spends less time in there than she would stabled. She has been medicated in one fore coffin and fetlock joint. She is on turmeric, linseed and glucosamine and is shod all round with pads and filler in front. I have just started using magnetic boots on her daily during the day. She is hacked on average 4 times a week. I am very mindful of the ground conditions for trotting or cantering it needs to be soft enough and even.


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## applecart14 (17 July 2016)

Pc2003 said:



			For us it's been a lot of trial and error. I know a lot of horses have arthritis and can manage a fair level of work but never been the case with mine. 
The turnout thing has been really interesting. I initially moved him to a large field and he lived out 24/7 for the movement aspect..... Didn't work for us. He really seemed to hate standing in wet, muddy and cold conditions. Moved him back to a yard and winter turn out was restricted and he has done better than ever. I could ride him straight from stable with no issues really. 
At the time I did post here re winter turnout and arthritis and a lot of responses said their horses did better in than out in yuk conditions
		
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Strangely i have been really slated on this forum as due to being on a yard with peat fields making turnout impossible in winter my horse goes out for two hours a day in a sandpit shared with another horse where he has room to roll and have a buck and a fart. so long as i rode six days per week he was coping with his spavin really well. but i got accused of not doing my best for him and that i should move yards etc. glad i kept to my guns as it was a regime that not only benefitted his arthritis it also benefitted his injury at the time. He is out for up to fifteen hours a day in the field now during the summer but hand on heart i do not notice much difference in the amount of turnout in respect of his arthritis now compared with the two hours per day in the winter. he still needs half a menage length in trot before he unstiffens in trot and another half before he feels normal regardless of how many hours a day he is out for.


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## DD265 (17 July 2016)

I know last winter was exceptionally wet, but the majority of the horses on the yard were much happier being kept in over winter with a couple of hours in the field or arena as appropriate. My lad is not the sort to have a hooley in the arena, but we do have a horse walker so I'm wondering whether 5 mins on each rein at a gentle walk a couple of times a day, plus a walk in hand (in addition to a mooch around the field/arena) will be sufficient. I'm hoping he comes back into ridden work then I can find somebody to hack him during the week.

He does find the arena a bit deep; it may be that it needs to be levelled more frequently especially if it's being used for turnout in winter. I can long rein rather than ride if D will show some willingness but I can't get to the yard in daylight hours to hack. He's good to hack so I'll hopefully find somebody who'd like to potter quietly around the countryside.

I am doing my usual of trying to fix everything at once (and I'm a worrier to boot!) rather than one step at a time, waiting to see what each change achieves.


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## applecart14 (18 July 2016)

DD265 said:



			I know last winter was exceptionally wet, but the majority of the horses on the yard were much happier being kept in over winter with a couple of hours in the field or arena as appropriate. My lad is not the sort to have a hooley in the arena, but we do have a horse walker so I'm wondering whether 5 mins on each rein at a gentle walk a couple of times a day, plus a walk in hand (in addition to a mooch around the field/arena) will be sufficient. I'm hoping he comes back into ridden work then I can find somebody to hack him during the week.

He does find the arena a bit deep; it may be that it needs to be levelled more frequently especially if it's being used for turnout in winter. I can long rein rather than ride if D will show some willingness but I can't get to the yard in daylight hours to hack. He's good to hack so I'll hopefully find somebody who'd like to potter quietly around the countryside.

I am doing my usual of trying to fix everything at once (and I'm a worrier to boot!) rather than one step at a time, waiting to see what each change achieves. 

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You should try magnotherapy. In a nutshell: The powerful field of the magnet is thought to improve circulation, ensuring that a greater number of oxygen-carrying red cells and healing white cells of our immune system reach every part of the body. As a result this reduces pain and swelling, increases the supply of nutrients to the affected area and in turn helps the body heal.

Any form of therapy that improves circulation and helps the blood detoxify is of huge benefit in the anti-inflammatory and healing processes.

I have had my horses spavin treated first with steroid then tildren and finally ethanol fusion which benefitted him greatly.  He is on a decent enough joint supplement.  I warm him up for quite a while first in trot, but he always is stiff when he starts trotting which is fair enough given his age and past and half a lap of the school in trot and he is fine.  He is also on buteless. I was thinking of putting him on turmeric which has had a lot of press recently (best fed with a twist of black pepper as the two work in conjunction with each other in the same way gluocasamine and chrondrotin do in joint supplements).  He is never hammered on the road in trot, I prefer to keep trot to about twenty strides and normally uphill.  The ménage maintenance is a good point. I find he struggles when it becomes deep, yet struggles when its first done too, presumably because its deep until its ridden on, so a couple of days after being harrowed is ideal, up until about a fortnight and then it needs reharrowing again.

Horsewalkers are okay in moderation, obviously the larger diameter the better, and need to have a rubber matted surface ideally, or something that will give a little underfoot.

My horse is in regular work - has spavin- and also coffin joint arthritis although described as moderate to severe upon xray he has only required three steroid injections in twelve years (the last one as a precaution not a necessity) so its interesting to assume that just because xrays show a level of damage, doesn't mean the horse is actually suffering from that problem!

He walks trots and canters schooling, I do a little leg yielding but not much, keep my circles as big as I can, rarely lunge and again big circles if I do, I  am jumping again now, and he is doing really well.  Had a lesson a couple of weeks ago and we did a lot of leg yielding on a circle in and out of the circle and he went lame on his hind leg so withdrew from the lesson so untacked him and took him in the field and lunged him, sound as a pound on both reins on the grass - springy grass, took him on the carpark and trotted small circle on the tarmac - lame.  Next day sound on a hack and been fine since. I can only assume the leg yielding in the lesson on a constant circle for ten mins on each rein was too much for his spavin and it ouched, the surface is known for being quite a hard surface, the grass was springy so he was fine, car park hard, and ouched again! Lesson learned - won't do that again.  A lot of arthritic care is knowing what your horse can and can't do, their capabilities, working on the best ground possible and knowing when they feel slightly off and lessening the workload appropriately. You have to learn to drop back a level if they tell you to! My boys had arthritis for nine years now so I must be doing something right!  Yesterday we went to the riding club and jumped the SJ track from the ODE the day before, he was brilliant, really pleased with him, eating the fences, loving his jumping.


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## 0310Star (18 July 2016)

Sorry to Hijack, but what is everyone's thoughts on how much ridden work when the arthritis worsens?

My mare has ringbone and DJD and I have managed to keep her sound without bute for the past 4 years. The last few months she's really gone downhill and is quite stiff and reluctant to work. I am going to try devils claw (Aviform Mobileaze) for 10 days starting tonight and if that doesn't work we are going to have to start looking at Bute.

She will work but she fidgets to be tacked up and is difficult to get on since she's been like this so I think she may be telling me something.

Do you think once I have the pain sorted I would be better riding her more or slowing her down? The vet said I need to start slowing her down as the problems are getting worse and she is quite happy mooching around the field.
She is out 24/7 at the moment and in at night in winter. I've thought about 24/7 turnout in winter but she would just hate it!


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## applecart14 (18 July 2016)

You need to be guided by your vet.  If the vet thinks you should slow down then you should consider what he says.  Is there a reason why she have gone downhill that you can think of?  Have there been new additions to the field that have made changed the pecking order and made her run around on hard ground, or have the flies been making her run around?  Have you been doing more of a schooling movement that you don't normally do, or have you trotted more on the roads?  There may be a reason why she is suddenly like this, so you need to think what the reason might be.  Arthritis is a slow and progressive disease, sudden changes in behavior may not be down to arthritis alone.

If you give her bute its not the end of the world, my horse had many years on half a sachet a day until I swapped to buteless.  Considering he is 17.1hh and weighed about 690KG it wasn't bad going.  The vet was happy to supply it as he knew I was sensible with it.


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## 0310Star (18 July 2016)

The vet agreed there isn't a lot of point xraying the backs and injecting steroids etc as the fronts are so bad, it would only mean spending hundreds to find out what we already know and that I need to manage it which I am already doing.

She's been like this for a few months now, getting noticeably worse. Its clearly in her bad leg so I have no doubt its her ringbone flaring up. Her xrays were so bad that the vet said she would be a field ornament 4years ago, but I managed to keep her sound this long and in work without bute and he said I had done really well to keep her sound for all that time. When she was first diagnosed the was unmanageable without work for 3 months whilst coming sound, there was no way she could be taken out of work, but now she really isn't bothered and is perfectly happy in the field which tells me she is probably trying to tell me something.

She's had a hard life and she deserves a good retirement.

My main issue at the moment is her weight, she has such a belly where she just has so much grass but she wont stay in during the day on her own so I am at a bit of a loss. going to speak to the yard owner later about maybe sorting her a more restricted paddock.


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## applecart14 (18 July 2016)

0310Star said:



			My main issue at the moment is her weight, she has such a belly where she just has so much grass but she wont stay in during the day on her own so I am at a bit of a loss. going to speak to the yard owner later about maybe sorting her a more restricted paddock.
		
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Maybe strip grazing would help.  Also she may have a big belly but this could be grass belly and look large because its full of gas rather than her just her being fat, maybe you should condition score her.  My horses stomach extends massively at times due to the gas from the grass fermenting in his stomach, the vet was really surprised a few months ago when he looked like he was due to foal twins the one day and less than 24 hours after being stabled with very limited hay due to colic he had deflated to look like a 'normal' horse!  The difference was astounding!

You can still see and feel my geldings ribs yet some days he has an enormous belly.  The size of the stomach can't really be relied on for an accurate impression of a horse being fat if the rest of the body isn't considered.  If she has a groove down her back and fat pads on her bum that is a more accurate reflection.


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## DD265 (18 July 2016)

0310Star - If she hasn't been buted until now, then that is an option. We're basically in a similar situation I guess, vet saw no reason why Bute wouldn't give a new lease of life. I'm primarily buting because I can't afford to keep going with 3+ SCENAR sessions a month. That thing really does work miracles although I don't doubt that there will be a limit as to how good we can get my boy.

It does seem a little odd to me that the vet didn't say "try bute, but if it doesn't work you may need to ease off" and went straight for "ease off" but I'm quite used to Bute being a standard response for most things!

I agree with Applecart about how it's probably not the arthritis itself that's the problem, rather that something has aggravated the arthritis. In our case I think asking my lad to slow going down hill (and really quite drastically, compared to what he's done for the last 10+ years) has put additional strain on his muscles and subsequently joints. Admittedly the SCENAR treatments he's had, which have yielded a huge improvement, were focused on muscles rather than joints. If he does come back into work, I'm planning to dismount for any hills where I'm not happy to let him "run on" whilst ridden so that he doesn't have to work so hard.


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## 0310Star (18 July 2016)

Sorry, I should have made it clear that it is gas, not fat! I just need her off the grass/less grass to help her deflate a bit as she is huge! 

He said to try bute, but he just agreed it sounds like she is wanting to slow down a bit. Like I said, her xrays were horrific 4 years ago and he was shocked she was ever ridden again in the first place, let alone doing all I have done in the last 4years! 

The only change was I swapped her supplement to something else about 3 weeks ago to see if that would help but it didn't, if anything it had the adverse effect, so we are back to the Glucosamine. It hasn't been over night, its been gradually over a few months now so I don't think it is anything else. Its degenerative after all any horse has a very high pain threshold which is quite annoying at times! 

I just feel in my gut she is trying to tell me she wants a quieter life now. She had a lot of time off last year due me having a fall and losing my confidence and she was better than ever when she came back into work but it changed quickly so I wonder if its just time to tone it down a bit now. Maybe just hack a couple times a week from now on


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## applecart14 (19 July 2016)

0310Star said:



			I just feel in my gut she is trying to tell me she wants a quieter life now. She had a lot of time off last year due me having a fall and losing my confidence and she was better than ever when she came back into work but it changed quickly so I wonder if its just time to tone it down a bit now. Maybe just hack a couple times a week from now on
		
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Only you know your own horse.  I know if mine was in pain he would have no trouble in telling me by dumping me on the ground in front of a fence or refusing the fence as he has done so before when in pain, and I have always responded by getting the vet involved and spending a fortune!  He is stoic and very honest, but not the point that he would bear pain just so I could ride or jump, so I guess I am lucky in that sense that I always know when I need to investigate or step back a gear as he tells me in no uncertain terms.


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## 0310Star (19 July 2016)

That's the trouble with my mare, she is so secretive about any pain she has! She is so honest that she just wont refuse to do anything asked of her, before her diagnosis I knew something wasn't right but no one believed me as she seemed perfectly fine to everyone else, so when we found out the problems she had the vet said to me he couldn't believe she was still letting me ride her the amount I was without her trying to kill me! 
That's why I think I need to be extra cautious with how much she can manage.

I started Aviform Mobileaze last night (Devils claw) so will see how she is after a few days on that


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## Milliechaz (19 July 2016)

My 19 yr old mare has arthritis in both front legs and kissing spines. She's had both for about 3 years now. She is on superflex senior, tumeric ( which does seem to have made a difference) and she wears magnetic boots when she is out to keep her legs warm and the circulation going. I can definitely tell the magnetic boots help her. We only hack now as the arena aggregates the arthritis but she will hack all day long. I can't ride in the week in winter due to work/dark evenings so it's weekends only and that's weather permitting but she does go out everyday (unless its icy) and she's happy to do so in her magnetic boots. I also put thermatex stable wraps on her in the stable over night when the temperature drops below 5°.


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## Smogul (19 July 2016)

0310Star said:



			Sorry to Hijack, but what is everyone's thoughts on how much ridden work when the arthritis worsens?

My mare has ringbone and DJD and I have managed to keep her sound without bute for the past 4 years. The last few months she's really gone downhill and is quite stiff and reluctant to work. I am going to try devils claw (Aviform Mobileaze) for 10 days starting tonight and if that doesn't work we are going to have to start looking at Bute.

She will work but she fidgets to be tacked up and is difficult to get on since she's been like this so I think she may be telling me something.

Do you think once I have the pain sorted I would be better riding her more or slowing her down? The vet said I need to start slowing her down as the problems are getting worse and she is quite happy mooching around the field.
She is out 24/7 at the moment and in at night in winter. I've thought about 24/7 turnout in winter but she would just hate it!
		
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I don't understand why people are so reluctant to give their horses bute. Any human with arthritis takes the pills without question. Would you like to be sore all day and every day when you could have pain relief?


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## applecart14 (19 July 2016)

Smogul said:



			I don't understand why people are so reluctant to give their horses bute. Any human with arthritis takes the pills without question. Would you like to be sore all day and every day when you could have pain relief?
		
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Because a) there are horses that need bute to alleviate stiffness or mild arthritis pain but are still able to compete at some level and happily enjoy doing so and a lot of people would consider this morally wrong from the horses point of view (for some weird reason) and also unfair to an extent as they see it giving that horse and additional help that other horses do not have

and b) because its the fear that once you start bute on a minimum dosage if you have to then increase that dosage in the future at what point do you say enough is enough?  This was my greatest fear when my horse was on a half sachet daily.

I agree I could not get up in the morning let alone function without my 17 pain killers a day.  It doesn't bother me in the slightest if my horse needs pain relief whether it is in liquid form or powder, as previously stated the only thing that does worry me is the possible increase.

My vets always said that horses tend to die of old age before they die of a bute related problem.


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## 0310Star (19 July 2016)

Oh Smogul, I couldn't agree more!! I have nothing against giving bute at all, I think its quality over quantity! 

I just want to try the nobute option first as she has not yet been on any pain relief, so if that doesn't work, or after a while of it working and then losing effect, I can then use Bute.

Hope that makes sense


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## Smogul (19 July 2016)

applecart14 said:



			and b) because its the fear that once you start bute on a minimum dosage if you have to then increase that dosage in the future at what point do you say enough is enough?  This was my greatest fear when my horse was on a half sachet daily.

I agree I could not get up in the morning let alone function without my 17 pain killers a day.  It doesn't bother me in the slightest if my horse needs pain relief whether it is in liquid form or powder, as previously stated the only thing that does worry me is the possible increase.

My vets always said that horses tend to die of old age before they die of a bute related problem.
		
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I also don't see why there is a problem with increasing the dose! As you say, they are more likely to die of something else. My mare ended up on 4 sachets a day. So what? It kept her  comfortable until she died of something else.

Forget to say. She retired three weeks before she died. Vet reckoned it was retirement that killed her as she was a workaholic!


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## DD265 (19 July 2016)

I agree with everything Applecart just said - I was very careful to ask the vet where the "limit" would be on bute. He wasn't definitive but said 4x a day is not sustainable for more than a fortnight (i.e. for acute issues) and ideally we should be aiming for 1/2-1 a day currently. We've started on 2 a day for a loading period with a view to reducing down.

ETA just seen the latest post, whether the vet is right or wrong about 4x a day I don't know, that's just what he said and I appreciate different vets will have different opinions.


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## applecart14 (19 July 2016)

Smogul said:



			Forget to say. She retired three weeks before she died. Vet reckoned it was retirement that killed her as she was a workaholic!
		
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Vet has said as much to me.  Said if you suddenly stop working a horse with arthritis and retire it to the field it will not be doing the range of movement in its legs and joints that it is used to.  The ligaments go all floppy and loose and he said normally within six to 8 weeks a lot of these type of horses end up PTS.  Not sure how true this is but working in a school or being ridden isn't the same as pottering around a school.


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## 0310Star (19 July 2016)

Personally I think I would make 2 a day my limit, 4 is a lot and to be honest you have to take into account the financial side of that too. A box of 100 is £100 roughly most places and you would be doing more than that in a month. I honestly don't think I could afford that! 

I am all for paying as much and sacrificing as much as is needed so I can to keep my horse happy, but I would need to be practical also.


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## JenHunt (19 July 2016)

There's no single answer. You have to find what works for him! It took us a lot of time and trial and error with Tom....

Tom has spavin in both hocks, sidebone in both front feet and is generally a bit arthritic. He's 22 now, and Welsh x Hanoverian (think overgrown welsh pony). He was diagnosed with spavin and sidebone at 5. 

We spent a lot of time getting his feet right, he had pads on for a while, eggbars and all sorts. He's now in standard shoes with quarter clips and set back for roll over. He will not cope barefoot plus he's club footed. He's uncomfortable even standing on one bare foot when being shod! 

He's had his hocks injected with HA and steroids which helped after a particularly bad spell. We tried every joint supplement on the market before finding one that a) works, b) he'll eat and c) i can afford. He gets Hack Up Bespoke Joint Supplement (Boswellia, Turmeric, Glucosamine and Chondroitin and MSM).

We started off aged 5 on two bute a day, and worked down as things settled to now only getting bute as and when required. He doesn't like soft or deep ground, and we avoid fast work on hard ground. He sees a physio a couple of times a year and gets a massage every couple of months (He's totally wonky all over, off set poll, club feet, one leg shorter that the other....) and this seems to be enough to keep him sound.  He also lives out as much as possible (he's also a stresshead in his stable so he's happier out) - he had 8 nights in a stable this last winter. 

When he was younger he show jumped up to 1m20, evented to Pre-Novice (BE90) and had scope to go a lot further but my sisters A levels got in the way. More recently he's done a lot of hunting with my sister and my OH, and even 2 years ago did 15 days hunting in a season. Last season we wrote off due to the weather and not having stables etc. Although he still hacks out regularly for a couple of hours at a time, and still enjoys a good gallop on a moor or a beach, we don't think we'll hunt him again. At 22 he's happy and sound, but increasingly difficult to get and keep fit, and the last thing we'd want is to injure him out hunting due to a lack of fitness....


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## DD265 (19 July 2016)

JenHunt said:



			At 22 he's happy and sound, but increasingly difficult to get and keep fit,
		
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I've concluded that this is key. My boy is the sort temperament wise that can be left in a field for weeks and then ridden no problem, but physically he either needs to be in consistent work to maintain a level of fitness or not at all. I think it might be slightly easier if we weren't in a valley and unable to avoid the hill work!

That supplement sounds interesting - do you still need to feed oil and black pepper as it contains turmeric?


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## JenHunt (19 July 2016)

DD265 said:



			I've concluded that this is key. My boy is the sort temperament wise that can be left in a field for weeks and then ridden no problem, but physically he either needs to be in consistent work to maintain a level of fitness or not at all. I think it might be slightly easier if we weren't in a valley and unable to avoid the hill work!

That supplement sounds interesting - do you still need to feed oil and black pepper as it contains turmeric?
		
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Speak to Alex at Hack Up https://hackup.co.uk/ - It's bespoke to us, and I just put a spoon full in his chaff. He'd actually eat it straight from the tub if I let him and he's one of the fussiest horses I know (I mean, really, who's horse won't eat pony nuts?!). The difference in Tom is brilliant with it, he found all his spring again when we put him on it! 

We're also in a valley (North York Moors), and we let Tom walk up the hills at his own pace on a long rein until he's warmed up. It's really noticeable how much longer it takes when he's been in the stable, even for just a couple of hours. Our grass is good, but he's not a total fatty so we often just ride him straight from the field.

To add on the Bute topic - my vets Hambleton Equine have said to try to manage it without bute if we could - but that he's rather see a horse on bute, happy and active than being miserable and sore retired in a field!


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## applecart14 (21 July 2016)

JenHunt said:



			To add on the Bute topic - my vets Hambleton Equine have said to try to manage it without bute if we could - but that he's rather see a horse on bute, happy and active than being miserable and sore retired in a field!
		
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Yes, agree totally with this statement too.  Personally I think I would draw the line if my horse needed more than one bute a day but I don't know I can say that for definite until such a time it happens (if ever at all).


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## JenHunt (21 July 2016)

yes totally Applecart14 - Tom is getting maybe 3 doses a year at the moment - generally if he's overdone it or is having to be in for any length of time (like when he had an abscess last summer). at that level I'm happy. Once we get into the realms of needing it everyday to be comfortable then that's a different matter entirely. We had one who got to that stage in his early twenties, and we let him have a summer retired and getting bute daily, and made the decision to call it a day before the weather worsened the following winter. It's always a horrible decision to make but we still think it was the right one for him.


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## 0310Star (21 July 2016)

Has anyone got any experience with Equine America Buteless?


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## DD265 (22 July 2016)

0310Star said:



			Has anyone got any experience with Equine America Buteless?
		
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No BUT I have used Global Herbs Alphabute and it does work - although it's not as effective as veterinary Bute and I think it might actually work out more expensive. I have used Arnica and Bellis Perrenis homeopathic remedies for more acute pains too but I don't know enough to use them to manage an ongoing condition.


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## tda (22 July 2016)

I have used No-Bute with some success  on an arthritic oldie, also Devils Claw.  He's not in work but shows marked improvement in movement


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## pines of rome (22 July 2016)

0310Star said:



			Has anyone got any experience with Equine America Buteless?
		
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Yes, I use this and find it very good.


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## 0310Star (22 July 2016)

I am currently trying Mobileaze from Aviform (devils claw) she's been on the loading dose 5 days today so tomorrow I will have a gentle ride and see how she feels. So far I am not noticing an awful lot of difference, which they said I should be able to pretty quickly.

It seems the equine America Buteless actually work out cheaper, same price per bottle but lasts an extra 20 odd days as the dosage is lower. This bottle of Mobileaze runs out on Wednesday so I may true the Buteless and then if that doesn't work I will just go onto regular Bute.


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## applecart14 (22 July 2016)

Yep brilliant.


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## 0310Star (22 July 2016)

applecart14 said:



			Yep brilliant.
		
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Do you think its worth a go?


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## applecart14 (22 July 2016)

Yes give it a go.  Liquid supplements are meant to be quicker than powdered forms of supplements so you should see an improvement soon.  Yes its botanical so no prohibited supplements so you can't get told off by people for using it should you still wish to compete the older horse


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## 0310Star (22 July 2016)

Yeah they said I should be able to see a difference pretty quickly with this Mobileaze and so far not a lot has happened so I will assume that means its not quite right for her. I will grab a bottle of Buteless! Thanks


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## Scatterbrain (22 July 2016)

"Botanical" doesn't necessarily mean it contains no banned substances. Devils claw for instance is now a prohibited substance.


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## 0310Star (25 July 2016)

Can I just ask, if you were giving long term bute (1 a day), would you carry on with the joint supplement?


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## applecart14 (25 July 2016)

Absolutely.  The bute is an anti inflammatory whereas the joint supplement will help to provide mobility and soothe your horses joints.  I use Equine America which contains HA (Hylauronic Acid) and this is an ingredient in synovial fluid which helps lubricate the horses jonits.  MSM (methyl sulphonyl methane) is another active ingredient and contains sulphur which is known to pass through cellular tissue easily and is also known for helping bone spavin in particular. This makes is a really good all round product for my horse who suffers from spavin.


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## 0310Star (25 July 2016)

I hadn't thought about it to be honest until a friend said about it yesterday. She is on 99% pure glucosamine and this seems to be the only thing that works for her. The vet is coming Friday and after a long think I have decided to go with the bute rather than try various "buteless" things as I've noticed no difference at all with the devils claw.
She needs exercising to get her weight down as that will be putting pressure on her joints, and I can only do that if she is comfortable being ridden.

Thank you for all of the help applecart


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## 0310Star (25 July 2016)

Oh ad before I forget, the vet mentioned on the phone about giving her some oil in her food as this will help lubricate the joints (I think?) Which oil would you go for? I can only find varied reviews on here. But I am worried this will again make her gain weight!


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## applecart14 (25 July 2016)

0310Star said:



			I hadn't thought about it to be honest until a friend said about it yesterday. She is on 99% pure glucosamine and this seems to be the only thing that works for her. The vet is coming Friday and after a long think I have decided to go with the bute rather than try various "buteless" things as I've noticed no difference at all with the devils claw.
She needs exercising to get her weight down as that will be putting pressure on her joints, and I can only do that if she is comfortable being ridden.

Thank you for all of the help applecart 

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Never be afraid to offer your horse bute.  My vet said years ago now that I had two choices, either retire (he said guaranteed he'd be out within weeks to put him down as his body couldn't cope without the work) or give him half a sachet of bute a day and get on with it, carrying on jumping and dressaging and everything else, the horse will soon let you know if he is uncomfortable.  So glad I listened to him.  Then after a few months of the horse doing brilliantly on this regime I stopped giving him bute and put him on buteless instead.  Even though I was only doing the odd unaffiliated event there were those that thought it was wrong, so I put him on buteless and he's been on it ever since.

With regards to the oil, omega 3 is known for its anti inflammatory properties and this is present in oil along with Omega 6.  Cod liver oil is high in Omega 3.  Soya oil shouldn't be fed to horses with arthritis or laminitis.


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## 0310Star (25 July 2016)

Well that's it, I had a conversation with a lady at my yard yesterday who had previously had a horse on long term bute and she said she looks at it like us taking an aspirin a day if we have aches and pains and she's right! We wouldn't just ignore it when we can take something to help.
My horse loves her work but has recently lost her sparkle so we need to now move onto bute I think and get her back to her old self.

I have been reading back through the old threads on feeding oil, and a lot of people have said they feed the supermarket vegetable/sunflower oil... but it seems people cant agree on whats best out of the 2!


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## applecart14 (26 July 2016)

0310Star said:



			Well that's it, I had a conversation with a lady at my yard yesterday who had previously had a horse on long term bute and she said she looks at it like us taking an aspirin a day if we have aches and pains and she's right! We wouldn't just ignore it when we can take something to help.
My horse loves her work but has recently lost her sparkle so we need to now move onto bute I think and get her back to her old self.

I have been reading back through the old threads on feeding oil, and a lot of people have said they feed the supermarket vegetable/sunflower oil... but it seems people cant agree on whats best out of the 2!
		
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Exactly.  I'm on 17 painkillers a day.  If I wasn't I wouldn't be able to get out of bed or drive or work or ride or muck out or live.


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## milliepops (26 July 2016)

0310Star said:



			Well that's it, I had a conversation with a lady at my yard yesterday who had previously had a horse on long term bute and she said she looks at it like us taking an aspirin a day if we have aches and pains and she's right! We wouldn't just ignore it when we can take something to help.
My horse loves her work but has recently lost her sparkle so we need to now move onto bute I think and get her back to her old self.
		
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Just have to interject here because IMO there is a fundamental difference between people taking painkillers and giving horses bute to work...
Horses being prey animals are biologically programmed to not show pain.  Therefore you might not be aware of the full extent of the discomfort experienced - totally agree with giving adequate pain relief to keep a horse comfortable but always be mindful of that when it's a *working* horse.  We can decide that we're a bit stiff or niggly to go to the pilates class or jog round the block even after 2 paracetamol, but the horse gets saddled up and has to grin and bear it, and often will do because to show lameness would make him vulnerable in the wild.

Would also point out in the interests of clean sport, no one should be competing on bute, and most of the herbal replacements are also banned substances.


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## 0310Star (26 July 2016)

milliepops said:



			Just have to interject here because IMO there is a fundamental difference between people taking painkillers and giving horses bute to work...
Horses being prey animals are biologically programmed to not show pain.  Therefore you might not be aware of the full extent of the discomfort experienced - totally agree with giving adequate pain relief to keep a horse comfortable but always be mindful of that when it's a *working* horse.  We can decide that we're a bit stiff or niggly to go to the pilates class or jog round the block even after 2 paracetamol, but the horse gets saddled up and has to grin and bear it, and often will do because to show lameness would make him vulnerable in the wild.

Would also point out in the interests of clean sport, no one should be competing on bute, and most of the herbal replacements are also banned substances.
		
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I don't compete so that's not an issue for me. I would choose my horses comfort over competing, personally.

I agree with you, but arthritis needs movement. There is a big difference between keeping your horse moving and keeping it a "working" horse. I will bute for the benefit of comfort but you have other things to take in to consideration. Like the example above, my horse is a little on the heavy side which is putting pressure on her joints, she has good grass (we don't have any bare paddocks at my yard) and she wont stay in whilst the others are out so the only way to help with that is by riding to get rid of some of the weight. With her problems, movement is key. So although she will be slowing down a bit, I think a bit of light work every day will be beneficial rather than letting her seize up.


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## milliepops (26 July 2016)

0310Star said:



			I agree with you, but arthritis needs movement. There is a big difference between keeping your horse moving and keeping it a "working" horse. I will bute for the benefit of comfort but you have other things to take in to consideration. Like the example above, my horse is a little on the heavy side which is putting pressure on her joints, she has good grass (we don't have any bare paddocks at my yard) and she wont stay in whilst the others are out so the only way to help with that is by riding to get rid of some of the weight. With her problems, movement is key. So although she will be slowing down a bit, I think a bit of light work every day will be beneficial rather than letting her seize up.
		
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agree whole heartedly, it was more a general point about there not being a direct comparison between taking 2 paracetamol and cracking on, and expecting a horse to do the same.  
And I'd agree if my horse needed daily bute to be comfortable, then I'd not want to compete it either


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## applecart14 (26 July 2016)

milliepops said:



			agree whole heartedly, it was more a general point about there not being a direct comparison between taking 2 paracetamol and cracking on, and expecting a horse to do the same.  
And I'd agree if my horse needed daily bute to be comfortable, then I'd not want to compete it either 

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Bute doesn't just act as a pain killer.  It also acts as an anti inflammatory. Buteless works in the same way by providing support to the horses joints.  My horse doesn't have to have it in order to work, as his joints have already been treated but I feel it helps him in addition to the joint supplement that he is already on.  If my horse didn't want to jump he would tell me in no uncertain terms.  As its only low level stuff that I do with him anyway, he loves his jumping and the vet has okayed it I don't see the problem.


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## milliepops (26 July 2016)

I understand all that, thanks, but Bute and many bute replacements are absolutely on the banned substances list so for me it's absolutely clear that horses that are using them should not be in competition. We are either in favour of clean sport or we don't give a toss... the grass roots should really abide by the same rules as the top riders on something so basic IMO.  what you do at home with a non-competing horse is your business but not in the show ring.


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## applecart14 (26 July 2016)

milliepops said:



			I understand all that, thanks, but Bute and many bute replacements are absolutely on the banned substances list so for me it's absolutely clear that horses that are using them should not be in competition. We are either in favour of clean sport or we don't give a toss... the grass roots should really abide by the same rules as the top riders on something so basic IMO.  what you do at home with a non-competing horse is your business but not in the show ring.
		
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Well I am trying to cut back on my expenses at the moment so was thinking of taking him off Buteless anyway but not sure what is the best thing to use instead.  I wasn't aware Devils Claw was a 'banned substance'. I think there is something called Nature Buteless or something, maybe I might look into that.


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## milliepops (26 July 2016)

whatever you go for, look up the active ingredients and run it through the clean sport database   lots of herbal remedies are on the banned substances list.

http://prohibitedsubstancesdatabase.feicleansport.org/


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## applecart14 (26 July 2016)

Okies, thanks


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## 0310Star (26 July 2016)

When I called the company I bought the mobileaze (devils claw) and they told me it was only banned on FEI...?!
Are you talking affiliated competition??


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## milliepops (26 July 2016)

many unaff shows will say the rules are as per the affiliated body, and therefore they would in theory have the same rules for doping etc as the FEI.

it's highly unlikely (!) that you'd get tested at the local hunt supporters club dressage show, for example.... but if the schedule says BD rules apply, as most unaff shows do, then by implication they would be running to the same rules for banned substances   Put it a different way, if it wasn't pain relief but, say, sedation for a naughty horse. Not in the spirit of the rules, is it  

British riding clubs run by the same set of rules FWIW, explicitly referencing FEI rules in their documentation, and I expect many other groups do too.


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## 0310Star (26 July 2016)

You will have to excuse my dumbness but I am not at all up to date with all of this! I was under the understanding that FEI was different to BD and the rules are also different? This is also what the lady at Aviform told me?

FYI I am not intending to compete affiliated but I am just curious now we have got onto the topic lol


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## ester (26 July 2016)

BD follow FEI rules and revert to them if they don't have a specific rule on it themselves.

IIRC boswellia/turmeric and another I can't remember are not on the FEI list.


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## 0310Star (27 July 2016)

ester said:



			BD follow FEI rules and revert to them if they don't have a specific rule on it themselves.

IIRC boswellia/turmeric and another I can't remember are not on the FEI list.
		
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Thank you Ester, That's very helpful!


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