# Breeding for colour



## Depp_by_Chocolate (10 July 2010)

If I was to breed from my mare (a number of years away yet) and I wanted a chestnut foal, what colour stallion should I go for?

The mare is a bay, her dam is also bay and sire black.  I don't believe the sire has ever produced a chestnut although the dam has.  I'm not au fait with colour genetics but does my mare carry to red gene?


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## s4sugar (10 July 2010)

A £17.50 test will confirm if your mare carries red. If she doesn't she cannot produce a chestnut foal.


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## GinnieRedwings (10 July 2010)

s4sugar said:



			A £17.50 test will confirm if your mare carries red. If she doesn't she cannot produce a chestnut foal.
		
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Quite. Chestnut is recessive - which means you can only get a chestnut foal if both parents pass on a copy of the "e" allele. If she is bay, she could be "EE" (which means she could never have a chestnut foal) or "Ee" which means there is 50% chance of her pasing on the "e" bit to the foal.

If you can establish she is "Ee" (as suggested by s4sugar) and pick a chestnut stallion, who will be "ee" so will definitely pass on an "e" to the foal, you can narrow the odds. However, there is no guarantee unless both parents are chestnut. My bay "Ee" mare produced a beautiful chestnut filly to a chestnut stallion 2 years ago and a beautiful BAY colt also to a chestnut stallion this year!


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## Holly831 (10 July 2010)

I still can't get my head a round this lot.....I think I must just be thick!

OK then I have a grey mare and a coloured sire (Misty Blues ISH x Maxwells Nescafe) and their ofspring was a chesnut colt (bright red) with what I now believe to be Rabicano (white flecks and small white patches that people keep telling me are 'strawberrys...)


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## Depp_by_Chocolate (10 July 2010)

Now I get it, thanks GinnieRedwings I've never really been able to understand it.  I'll get her tested to see if she carries the red gene.


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## GinnieRedwings (10 July 2010)

Holly831 said:



			I still can't get my head a round this lot.....I think I must just be thick!

OK then I have a grey mare and a coloured sire (Misty Blues ISH x Maxwells Nescafe) and their ofspring was a chesnut colt (bright red) with what I now believe to be Rabicano (white flecks and small white patches that people keep telling me are 'strawberrys...)
		
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I wouldn't say it was simple, but the base colour bit is the simpler aspect of colour genetics. Basically, all horses have a base colour, which is made up of a combination of 2 alleles, "e" or "E". Every horse will be "ee", "Ee" or "EE". After that there are a multitude of "modifiers", which change the appearance of the colour (like grey, tobiano, agouti - which concentrates the black pigment to the points as in bay -rabicano, splash, all sorts of other white modifiers and many many more, some of which are not well understood still).

So back to base colour:
"ee" always have a chestnut base.
"Ee" & "EE" never have a chestnut base and can either have a black or bay base.

Each parent will pass on one of his/her alleles, either "e" or "E" randomly, and obviously a "ee" can only pass on an "e" and an "EE" can only pass on an "E".
The resulting foal will have one from each parent, which will determine its base colour and together with *LOTS* of other modifiers also inherited from both parents, its final appearance.

As for your foal, if he is Chestnut Rabicano, probably with splash (the white patches which might be a minimal tobiano pattern inherited from Dad - but white modifiers aren't my forte so someone else might come in and set me straight), that means both parent MUST carry the "e" allele and have both passed it on to the foal.

The problem with grey is that it hides the base colour. Your mare might have been born chestnut "ee", or she might have been born bay or black "Ee" but then greyed out (the grey gene "modifies" the base colour). But she couldn't have been "EE". Maxwells Nescafe is bay tobiano so if he threw a chestnut, his base colour must be "Ee". And both passed on their "e" to the foal to make him chestnut.

Trying to simplify, I might have made it more complicated... Sorry. Hope it helps. It's quite fascinating really and let's face it one of the pleasures of breeding - to double guess what colour the foal is going to come out!


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## KarynK (10 July 2010)

The easiest way to look at it is that there are only two base colours in the horse, they are Chestnut and Black.

Every other colour gene works to change or mask those two partially or fully, at birth or progressively in some way shape or form, but any horse whatever its outward colour appearance (phenotype) will be either a chestnut a black or a black that carries chestnut genetically (genotype).

Your mare is black, but you do not know what the other gene is,  it's either black or chestnut, that would depend entirely on if her mother gave her the chestnut gene she carried herself, so you need to test the E series gene to see if that happened or if her mother gave her another black.

If that is the case and you want a chestnut you will have to breed to a chestnut and then wait another generation to stand a chance!


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## Depp_by_Chocolate (10 July 2010)

Interestingly my mare's dam produced her only chestnut foal when put to a bay stallion.

And one of the stud's black stallions (not my mares sire) has produced twice as many chestnut foals as bays/blacks to non chestnut mares (including blacks).

Just to add though if I do breed in the future and the foal is bay I wouldn't be disappointed


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## sarahhelen1977 (11 July 2010)

My boy (bay) had a bay filly out of a chestut mare, and a chestnut filly out of a bay mare - go figure! I guess it goes to show that its all a bit of a lottery - but it has saved me testing for colour, as I now know that he does carry the red gene! One thing that seems to be a constant though is that he throws quite a lot of white markings - both fillies have 4 whites (the chestnut has stockings!) and both have face markings - the chestnut also has a splash of white on her tummy  As long as you are happy with whatever you get, I guess you increase your chances of a chestnut if you put your mare to a chestnut stallion!


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## KarynK (11 July 2010)

Yes it's the luck of the draw and each time the odds are reset just like with dice.

That's why particularly with mares you could get a bay mare that has all chestnut foals in her breeding life.  It is not till you get to around 100 progeny (unlikely in a mare) that you can say for certain what genes they have.

On base colour you can tell certain ones:

If horse is chestnut it will be                     ee
If a bay/brown or black has a chestnut parent it will be      Ee
If a bay/brown or black produces a chestnut it will be        Ee
If a bay/brown or black has lots of foals and no chestnuts it will be    EE


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## the watcher (11 July 2010)

This is fascinating and mind boggling stuff.

Emerald is a mouse dun, I would have assumed, looking at her that the base colour is black with dunning, her dam started out mouse dun but greyed out, and her sire was mouse dun throughout his life.

She had one previous foal which was yellow dun (don't know the sire colour), and now with me has produced two chestnut duns (by Tobago - very chestnut). So I can assume from this that she carries 'e' and therefore will always potentially pop out another chestnut?


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## linali (11 July 2010)

This colour thing is fun (and confusing!!!) our bay mare with bay parents was put to a bay stallion and had a chestnut foal, but the foal does have some black hair in her mane so think she might be liver chestnut???!


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## whirlwindhorses (11 July 2010)

lucysax said:



			This might interest all you colour/genetics experts! I have (what i thought to be) a bay tobiano mare (she is brown and white with black mane and tail, although the shade of brown does vary slightly throughout her coat). She is Argentinian Criollo and is branded but I do not know the colour of her parents. Last year I put her to End House stud's Tri-coloured Polish warmblood stallion, Centyfield Nico (he basically looks to be black and white tobiano). We were kind of expecting a coloured foal!

On the 1st of July Marcie gave birth to Firefox, he has a bright chestnut coat but is covered with barring (zebra markings) and has cob-webbing on her face. His mane is orange and his tail, belly and inner legs are cream. He has one white sock and a small white star. 

I have read that his zebra markings and cobwebbing make him a red-dun but that dun is only possible if one of the parents is also dun. We are now wondering is Marcie is infact a  dark bay-dun tobiano.

I am not a regular user on here and haven't yet worked out how to upload pics but if anyone has the time to visit my website www.saxelbysportshorses.com click on youngstock and then click on SAXY FIREFOX - there are loads of pictures of him, his mum and his strange markings! 

Any thoughts on his colour/her colour much appreciated!
		
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Your foal is not a Dun, not sure what that is. KarynK might know or ask on this site
http://www.equinecolor.info 
Another site for weird colours is http://www.homozygous-horses.com/weird.html


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## whirlwindhorses (11 July 2010)

Im saying he isn't Dun because he doesn't look dilute in those photo's, reddun foals tend to be more orange/peachy colour. I will have a look for a pic for you.
Many horses have counter shading, i have two purebred arab foals with dorsal stripe, shoulder marks and leg stripes, the one even looked a bit dilute but arabs do not carry dun so its just counter shading.
Pure arab colt with counter shading


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## whirlwindhorses (11 July 2010)

Lucysax-Link to photo's of The Watcher's Reddun H Tobago foal
http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=380912


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## the watcher (11 July 2010)

This is a red dun foal (my red dun foal as it happens at 1 day old) and her older full brother - he started out the same colour


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## the watcher (11 July 2010)

whirlwindhorses said:



			Lucysax-Link to photo's of The Watcher's Reddun H Tobago foal
http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=380912

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Oooh - spooky!


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## Puppy (11 July 2010)

Oh I find this so confusing!! 

Please could someone explain to me just how dominant grey is? I have a grey mare, who I am looking to breed from. If I used a dark bay stallion what are the odds of getting what?


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## Clepottage (11 July 2010)

Puppy said:



			Oh I find this so confusing!! 

Please could someone explain to me just how dominant grey is? I have a grey mare, who I am looking to breed from. If I used a dark bay stallion what are the odds of getting what? 

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Very quickly and simply. 

Grey isn't actually a colour, it's something that happens to a colour. 

Grey is a simple dominant which means if a horse inherits that particular allele it will become grey. 

So, at least one of your mare's parents had to be grey. If one parent was grey your mare is heterozygous grey, however if both parents were grey it is possible your mare is homozygous grey. 

If your mare is heterozygous grey and you breed her to a non-grey stallion you have a 50% chance of producing a grey foal.
If she is homozygous grey, every foal she ever has will become grey no matter what colour stallion you use. 

The only way to be sure is to get her DNA tested.

... Now off to look more at Lucysax's mare...


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## Clepottage (11 July 2010)

I agree with whirlwindhorses, that your foal isn't red dun Lucysax. 
Those picture also look like they were taken very young, is it possible to see more recent ones please? To me that doesn't look like cobwebbing either, please can I see some more pictures?


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## Puppy (11 July 2010)

Clepottage said:



			Very quickly and simply. 

Grey isn't actually a colour, it's something that happens to a colour. 

Grey is a simple dominant which means if a horse inherits that particular allele it will become grey. 

So, at least one of your mare's parents had to be grey. If one parent was grey your mare is heterozygous grey, however if both parents were grey it is possible your mare is homozygous grey. 

If your mare is heterozygous grey and you breed her to a non-grey stallion you have a 50% chance of producing a grey foal.
If she is homozygous grey, every foal she ever has will become grey no matter what colour stallion you use. 

The only way to be sure is to get her DNA tested.

... Now off to look more at Lucysax's mare...
		
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Thank you very much   My mare's sire was grey. I'm not sure about her dam...

This DNA test, is it the £17.50 one that people are talking about above?  Who would I contact for that? Is it as simple as being done with some of her hair? Or would it be a blood test? Sorry for all the dumb questions!


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## whirlwindhorses (11 July 2010)

Lucysax - i think your foal just has wavy hair, i could be wrong! but many years ago i had a welsh mountain pony foal born with a very similar hair pattern (although hers wasn't as extreme on her legs as your foals is), ive found some photo's of her (after hunting everywhere for them) which i'm just scanning on to my computer and then i will post them later. Someone told me that premature foals often have this wavy hair. Unfortunately it soon grows out, she was a normal bay colour as an adult.


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## KarynK (11 July 2010)

Lucysax you need to pay the electricity bill I can't get onto the website!!!  Argh will be interested to see the foal and particularly the white markings in the coat, there is Appaloosa in Criollo's!

My chestnut this year had a cobweb effect in his foal coat but it has disappeared with the moult, no dun in him for sure, so it might be a visual effect rather than an indication, need to see the picks, will try again later.


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## whirlwindhorses (11 July 2010)

pics of welsh foal, scanned off 1995 photo so quality not brilliant!


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## KarynK (11 July 2010)

the watcher said:



			This is fascinating and mind boggling stuff.

Emerald is a mouse dun, I would have assumed, looking at her that the base colour is black with dunning, her dam started out mouse dun but greyed out, and her sire was mouse dun throughout his life.
		
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Yes she would for sure have one E, but chestnut being a recessive can hide for generations, even in fairly modern times the odd chestnut popped out in Cleveland Bays!  Her dam would also have had a grey gene which turned everything grey.



the watcher said:



			So I can assume from this that she carries 'e' and therefore will always potentially pop out another chestnut?
		
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Oh yes so now you know she is Ee but you still had a 50/50 chance of black or chestnut to Tobago.


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## KarynK (11 July 2010)

Looks like he got crinkled in the wash and needs an iron  How cute though!


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## whirlwindhorses (11 July 2010)

Puppy said:



			Thank you very much   My mare's sire was grey. I'm not sure about her dam...

This DNA test, is it the £17.50 one that people are talking about above?  Who would I contact for that? Is it as simple as being done with some of her hair? Or would it be a blood test? Sorry for all the dumb questions! 

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http://www.avianbiotech.co.uk/horse-dna/grey.html  These do the grey test. Its mane or tail hair which you pull out yourself, making sure the hair roots are attached (looks like little bulbs on the end of the hair).


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## Puppy (11 July 2010)

Fab! Thank you very much


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## Clepottage (12 July 2010)

lucysax said:



			He is 11 days old today, so still not very old! But I will take some new ones and put them on when I get a chance. Anyone got any photos or links to typical examples of "cobwebbing" please?
		
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Here is picture of cobwebbing...







I hjave to say, I'm in agreement with the others that he looks like he just has baby crinkly coat which will straighten up soon.


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## Issey (7 November 2011)

Does anyone one know - If both Sire and dam are coloured could they produce a solid bay foal?

Issey


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## s4sugar (7 November 2011)

They certainly can.
A one in four chance if the parents are each heterozygous for tobiano.


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## Issey (7 November 2011)

Oh thanks for that - I thought it was not possible

Issey


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## Enfys (9 November 2011)

saxy said:



			Has anyone else had a chestnut horse with these markings?
QUOTE]

Red dun. Belgian draft x QH.






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## Enfys (9 November 2011)

Issey said:



			Does anyone one know - If both Sire and dam are coloured could they produce a solid bay foal?

Issey
		
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Yes they can, there is a whole Registry for 'Solid' Paints in the APHA stud book


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## Alphamare (9 November 2011)

Enfys said:





saxy said:



			Has anyone else had a chestnut horse with these markings?
QUOTE]

Red dun. Belgian draft x QH.






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Please can you post him too me!!!?
		
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## Enfys (10 November 2011)

Alphamare said:





Enfys said:



			Please can you post him too me!!!?
		
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   Hmmm, 'postage' is about $8,000 to the UK!

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## Alphamare (10 November 2011)

I love him! 

*goes off to check lottery ticket*


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