# Foal unable to stand unaided - day 6 now!



## Kaycee (8 July 2015)

We have a foal who has been unable to get to his feet unaided.
Straightforward birth and at 226 days (mare always foals 224-226 days) Once up hes suckling immediately like a normal foal, follows mum etc. He was quite wobbly for a while after birth but hes getting stronger day by day and can canter (albeit a little slowly) after mum. 
Hes now 6 days old and weve been getting him up every hour or so (he can spend up to an hour on his feet and is able to coordinate to lie down) His IGG level was 1400 so no problem there, but bloods did show slightly elevated white blood count & fibrinogen. Hes been on Cobactan antibiotics & vet also tried anti-inflam/pain killer but this had no effect on his ability to get to his feet. No outwards signs of infection and manipulation of his joints has showing nothing wrong. Our vet is an experienced stud vet and has not come across a foal like this before. To see him up and about he looks a little younger than he actually is, but if you didnt know that you wouldnt think there was a problem.

No neurological signs at all and hes bright and alert and quite happy sitting up and watching everything going on around him, but doesnt make huge efforts to get up. Weve tried leaving him down for 2 hours in the hope hunger will make him get up. Its as though hes too weak on his back end to push up as he will lift the front endor just plain lazy?!
But both we and the vet are beginning to wonder if he just assumes that when he whinnies we come and get him up and that that is the norm?? Were using a towel underneath his belly to get him up and we keep trying to partially lift him so that he is free to use his legs. Sometimes he will help himself and other times its as though he just cant be bothered. 

All ideas/suggestions welcome as wed have expected him to be getting up by now. Hes also getting heavier as each day goes by!


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## JillA (8 July 2015)

Might be worth picking Johanna Vardons brains at NFB, she might have come across similar? http://www.nationalfoalingbank.com/


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## Blanche (8 July 2015)

If the vet is happy with everything, I would agree with the vet that this may be a learned behaviour. The other thing to consider is the floor of box and how slippery it may be. If he feels a bit weaker it may put him off if he can't get any purchase on the floor. Do you leave him longer than an hour at night and if so does it look like he has tried to get up? Could you borrow a camera to watch him to see if he makes any effort to get up when no one is around. Good luck with him . Also remember boys tend to be lazy !


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## TBB (8 July 2015)

Your vet has checked everything out so now you have to teach him how to get up. Firstly make it as natural as possible, pull his front ones out in front of him and move to his back end and then with help if you have it lift him with hands under his tail end, if you have help make sure all the lift is at exactly the same time (one, two and lift ) so that its balanced. I had a very big filly 3 years ago who did this for 3 days, like yours 100% once on her feet but had needed help the night she was born and decided she liked it! Eventually she got the hang of it and it required less effort on my part and  then one time when I put my hand to her, up she got and never looked back. Good luck with your chap, the first time he does it himself will be like winning the lottery!


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## Kaycee (8 July 2015)

Thanks Blanche, the more I think about it the more I realise he knows no different and needs to learn. He's out in a small paddock as mum was climbing the walls when inside, so there's no problem with a slippery floor. Last night I left him 2 hours each time, but as he's outside there's no way of knowing if he's been trying (but I suspect not as he knows I'll be along eventually!) and no way of rigging a camera.
The vet also said boys are are bit dumb and lazy!


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## Kaycee (8 July 2015)

TBB I will try just lifting under his tail end. He does tend to stretch his forelegs out for me, but then that's as far as it goes. He does sounds very like your filly and it makes total sense that they need to actually learn, so thank you very much! It will indeed feel like winning the lottery, I am sure!


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## GemG (8 July 2015)

Gosh you must be tired! Good luck.


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## Alec Swan (8 July 2015)

As he's now 6 days,  and if you and your Vet are right,  and if he is simply lazy,  then I'd try leaving him for 2 hours in between getting him up.  If you do that,  I'd also take an aerosol marker and mark the ground to see if he moves form his 'left' position.  By leaving him for extended periods,  he may through hunger alone,  find his own way to his feet.  Try it for a day perhaps,  and see what happens.  It's odd,  I'll give you that!

Alec.


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## Alec Swan (8 July 2015)

Kaycee said:



			&#8230;&#8230;.. . Last night I left him 2 hours each time, but as he's outside there's no way of knowing if he's been trying (but I suspect not as he knows I'll be along eventually!) and &#8230;&#8230;..!
		
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I've only just read this (sorry!),  but again,  if you mark the ground where he is when you leave him,  then when you return a couple of hours later,  you'll see if he's moved.  

I agree with you,  when foals turn the needed corner,  it's such a relief,  and I'm sure that he will come to it!  

Alec.


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## Dry Rot (9 July 2015)

Alec Swan said:



			As he's now 6 days,  and if you and your Vet are right,  and if he is simply lazy,  then I'd try leaving him for 2 hours in between getting him up.  If you do that,  I'd also take an aerosol marker and mark the ground to see if he moves form his 'left' position.  By leaving him for extended periods,  he may through hunger alone,  find his own way to his feet.  Try it for a day perhaps,  and see what happens.  It's odd,  I'll give you that!

Alec.
		
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There is nothing quite like Nature's way and I'd agree with Alec. I had a foal that could not get up and when it was held to the udder would not suck. It can be extremely frustrating but tremendously rewarding when things finally click into place, as they will do.

I used to watch lambs being born and struggle to their feet, only to get knocked over by the mother trying to nuzzle and clean them. I believe everthing in nature has a purpose but I just could not work this out. When the lamb should be on it's feet, why would the mother regularly knock it down again? Then it dawned on me that the more times a newly born herbivore has to struggle to it's feet, the more practice it is getting. Later, young animals like to run around and play. This is surely learning escape behaviour as a protection from predators.

Our instincts are to help a struggling young creature but I'd suggest trying the opposite! Get the foal on it's feet and to the udder for a brief suck when it is hungry, then lie it down again. With luck (and hunger!), that might prompt it to struggle up again to continue it's meal. Just leaving it in the hope that hunger alone will do the trick might not provide enough incentive as when hungry some animals will 'shut down' to cope. You won't want that.


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## Kaycee (9 July 2015)

Thanks for the suggestion Alec Swan, I can try this during the day. But I'd need to watch him like a hawk as he can be on his feet for an hour before lying down again (he has mastered that no problem)
I hope you're right and that there is light at the end of this never ending tunnel!


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## Kaycee (9 July 2015)

Our instincts are to help a struggling young creature but I'd suggest trying the opposite! Get the foal on it's feet and to the udder for a brief suck when it is hungry, then lie it down again. With luck (and hunger!), that might prompt it to struggle up again to continue it's meal. Just leaving it in the hope that hunger alone will do the trick might not provide enough incentive as when hungry some animals will 'shut down' to cope. You won't want that.[/QUOTE]

Will give it a go Dry Rot, thanks! It's very odd as he's normal in every other way and is straight on suck once I've lifted him up. The 'shutting down' mechanism does make sense though.

I've read on another forum in the US where they had to get a few people to continually lift the foal and then lie it back down again, many times in quick succession, until it eventually clicked. So that will be plan B....but I'm just hoping Plan A will work!


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## crabbymare (9 July 2015)

semi annoying him may also work e.g. tapping his dainty little bum or tickling him somewhere so he gets cheesed off with you. if you get his back legs up (since he lays around waiting for you I am thinking he will still mentally be at the point of getting up bum first) and then annoy him he may bring his front end up to stop you tapping or tickling him. I know colts can be lazy but he is going a bit far


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## tristar (9 July 2015)

no doubt you have tried leading the mare away from him some distance? or sounds cruel I know but get a tin of stones and rattle them, spook the mare gently,  and see if the self preservation instinct takes over, certainly be interesting to know if that works.


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## MargotC (9 July 2015)

I hope you get to the bottom of it and that the little one turns out alright.

At first my thought was dummy foal syndrome but since he is 'normal' once on his feet that is probably unlikely. I don't know too much about it but remember watching a very interesting program a good while back.


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## Kaycee (10 July 2015)

Yes crabbymare we've tried tickling/pinching ect to make it uncomfortable. He does lift the front end first but just cannot get the back end to follow. We only lift the hind end when he's lifting the front, in an effort to teach him he has to make an effort before we help.


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## Kaycee (10 July 2015)

Tristar yes we have tried that also. He tries his hardest but just cannot do it. We're running out of ideas now and cannot carry on like this indefinitely. Our vet is coming back out today to re-do bloods. A vet at Newmarket has mentioned the possibility of some sort of injury that is physically preventing him from getting up. But our vet & ourselves think this in unlikely as he can stay on his feet for up to an hour and trots & canters around fine. He shows no signs of pain whatsoever.
MargotC we quickly ruled out him being a dummy as everything else is normal. He is on suck immediately, follows mum etc


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## tristar (10 July 2015)

physio,you could ask a chiro or physio for any suggestions that may help, or Bristol uni if there is any particular body parts involved in rising that could be affected neurologically.


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## Alec Swan (12 July 2015)

Kaycee,

it's now 4 days further on and the foal will be 10 days old.  Is there any improvement,  and have you allowed him time to make the decision to rise,  for himself?

Alec.


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## TBB (13 July 2015)

Alec Swan said:



			Kaycee,

it's now 4 days further on and the foal will be 10 days old.  Is there any improvement,  and have you allowed him time to make the decision to rise,  for himself?

Alec.
		
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Yes OP how are things going?


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## Kaycee (13 July 2015)

Sorry for the delay in posting the update, but I've had no internet until now. Thanks for all the suggestions, but thankfully, on day 10, he managed to get up unaided and hasn't looked back since! Phew! 
He does, however, get up like a cow....on his knees and lifts the rear end first. We are not too concerned at the moment and neither is our vet. He's very much a normal foal in every other way.


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## Alec Swan (13 July 2015)

Well done Kc and thanks for the update.  Well done that foal too!  Without you're timely intervention,  you may well have lost the foal.

Alec.


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## crabbymare (13 July 2015)

Kaycee said:



			Sorry for the delay in posting the update, but I've had no internet until now. Thanks for all the suggestions, but thankfully, on day 10, he managed to get up unaided and hasn't looked back since! Phew! 
He does, however, get up like a cow....on his knees and lifts the rear end first. We are not too concerned at the moment and neither is our vet. He's very much a normal foal in every other way.
		
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If its any help loads of foals get up bum first as its easier for  them but they do eventually chance to front first


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## tristar (13 July 2015)

i`m so relieved!


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## Kaylum (13 July 2015)

Brilliant news x


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## Kaycee (14 July 2015)

Thanks everyone, it's been a stressful (and tiring!) 10 days and I was beginning to think that there was no light at the end of the tunnel. Our stud vet and the Newmarket vets don't really know what the problem was and are perplexed.

Btw he's now getting up properly


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## GemG (15 July 2015)

Pleasing update. Kaycee you must be relieved and less stressed out now. Well done foalie!


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## Dry Rot (16 July 2015)

This thread has been nagging me!

First, I am delighted to hear that the foal is improving and the problem seems to be solved. I am sure it won't look back from here on.

What interests me is the cause of the problem. I am particularly interested in "critical periods" in development. These are periods when learning is extremely rapid. An example is the birth of a herbivore which must be up and sucking before predators latch on to what is an easy meal. Every shepherd knows the "stupid lamb" syndrome. Basically, a lamb is found to be hypothermic and is brought inside to warm up and be revived. It is then put back with the ewe but won't suck! I won't go into the details but the reason for the failure to suck is that the lamb's learning sequence (finding the udder and starting to suck) is quite complex and needs to be completed within a limited time frame and, if it isn't, it never learns.

I am wondering if this foal's initial failure to learn to get on it's feet could be similar to that?

Why am I interested in these periods of very rapid learning? Well, they can be very useful in training. (I once taught a litter of nine pups to Sit in 20 minutes. That is 20 minutes for the whole litter -- and they remembered the lesson the next day, although it did have to be repeated a few times before it became 'fixed'!). A lot of work has been done on imprinting foals which is a related process. Imprinting sounds a great idea but it is not quite as straight forward as it seems. Which is why I am still curious!

Any animal behaviourists on here? Vets are usually a bit clueless about this stuff. I don't think they do a lot of psychology/animal behaviour at vet college but it might be interesting to hear what they say about this theory of the foal's behaviour and slowness to learn. (It's OK, I'm thick skinned!:O).


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