# Rearing and what to do about it



## Aoibhinn (12 December 2014)

Hi all,
I would really appreciate everyone's opinion/help on this topic! I'd better start from the beginning. 
Well, I bought my horse back in April, he's a 16.1h 11year old gelding. He was lovely and quiet, did everything I asked him to, basically perfect. So I was riding and competing him until the beginning of July when next thing his front feet got very bad and chipping away. Farrier came out and we fixed him up anyway, won't go into depth on the details or I'll be here forever!

So about two weeks ago he came sound and I rode him for a week before taking him hunting last Sunday. I am part of a very local hunt, we only have about 15 horses in total. There were maybe 8 out when I brought him. So he hadn't hunted before but I didn't think it would be a big deal. He was being a brat the whole time for about an hour and a half, bucking and prancing etc. 

Next thing we were standing on the road and he reared up out of nowhere and launched himself forward, nearly on to of a ditch. So I walked him forward next to another horse and he was calming down. Then again out of nowhere, he reared up, but this time he twisted towards the other horse and threw his front legs over this horses neck, nearly kicking the lad riding him in the head. The horse backed out from under him and as soon as he landed on the ground he went up again. I felt myself falling so when he came down again I tried to push myself away from him. He went up once more, clipping me on the side of the face, before galloping off about two miles down the road. 

There was absoloutely no trigger for it whatsoever. So the question I have been asking myself is, do I keep him and give him a second chance, or do I quit now while I'm ahead and before anyone gets hurt?
Appreciate any feedback


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## misskk88 (12 December 2014)

It seems strange that a horse can be so calm from April, yet you are having issues suddenly. Has it just been the hunting he has misbehaved at, or has his behaviour gradually got worse over time? Given the severity of his behaviour/reaction, personally I would:

- review changes in diet which may be causing upset i.e high sugar/cereal content. You would be surprised how some horses and ponies can turn into satan on the wrong diet, particularly where intolerances are concerned. 
- review his tack and equipment and get advice from professionals regarding fit and whether any could be causing pain, pressure points or tension.
- review his routine and whether any changes could have impacted on his behaviour. Some horses are particularly sensitive to change, or new experiences, and he may, or may not be one of these.
- investigate changes in feet and unsoundness issues with advice of farrier and vet to see whether behaviour is a symptom of pain and/or diet and/or tack too. 

For now, until you have an answer to one or more of the above I would be avoiding road work and any situations which make him highly excitable, for your own safety, his and others.

I would not however write him off until you have looked into the above.

Hope you get to the bottom of it.


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## smja (12 December 2014)

So he's been off since July, ridden for a week then hunted for an hour and a half?

I would say he's unfit and running on adrenaline, and thus overexcited.  Do some steady fitness work, then start again with hacking in trusted company etc.


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## ihatework (12 December 2014)

Have I misread this?
Horse goes lame in July, comes sound 2 weeks ago, does a weeks work then goes hunting?


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## misskk88 (12 December 2014)

ihatework said:



			Have I misread this?
Horse goes lame in July, comes sound 2 weeks ago, does a weeks work then goes hunting?
		
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No idea how I missed this bit!

Apart from what I said above, I would say it is too much too soon, particularly on a horse that has only just come sound again and been out of work for so long.


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## Clare85 (12 December 2014)

Echo what others have said. You've kind of set the poor lad up to fail op. Give him a chance to get fit and settle back into ridden work. Don't ask so much so soon.


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## FestiveFuzz (12 December 2014)

Am I reading it right that he was off ridden work from the beginning of July through to two weeks ago? If he has been out of work for a few months it could be that his saddle no longer fits correctly. Alternatively, it could just be that hunting him for the first time so soon after he came sound could have blown his mind a bit. I'd check tack and back and go from there.


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## L&M (12 December 2014)

Please don't hunt this horse until you have got to the bottom of its behaviour - it is a danger to you and others in the field. Time and time again I see badly behaved horses, my own having been kicked twice already this season, by over excited and under educated horses.

As others have said, you have asked too much too soon, so not entirely the horses fault, although some just don't take to hunting full stop. Do you know if it has hunted before?

Whether you sell it or not is up to you - if you want it as purely a hunter, then I think you have your work cut out. If this was my horse I wouldn't attempt to hunt it this season, and maybe re look at it next season, starting of with hound exercise, autumn hunting, and if it maintains its composure, proceed from there. The hunting season is now in full swing so not an ideal time to introduce any horse to the discipline, especially one with such little level of fitness.

If it can have another job, and do it safely, then I would continue getting it back into work and see what happens. If the rearing is still and issue, then you may need to seek professional help, or pts if it is dangerous.

Sorry to be frank.


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## Aoibhinn (12 December 2014)

Apologies, should have made myself clearer. He was very lame all summer and since about October he has been 95% sound during which I was doing light work with him in an arena. It is only in the last 2-3 weeks he has come 100% sound so I kicked the work up a notch. He is half Thoroughbred so is after getting for very quickly. 
He was on about 1kg of cool mix (no oats) a day which might have been contributing to the problem so has since been cut back. 
However, the rearing is a once off thing. I had him riding in a field a few weeks ago and he did get excited and bucked but this was my own fault, he had been standing in a stable all day and I took him straight into the field.  

His teeth were done in August and they are perfect. Nothing to do with I'll fitting tack either, it has been checked. Also, when ridden in the arena he has never put a foot wrong. I don't think it is down to the hounds either as there are 10 odd kept next to his stable which he sees every day. 
I had him out in May, June and July competing with groups of horses and never had any trouble. Trying to figure out what triggered it but by process of elimination there does not seem to be a trigger for it. 
He has never hunted before L&M.


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## Aoibhinn (12 December 2014)

Also, the hunt I am a part of is not a typical hunt. There are maximum 15 horse out every weekend, we don't jump any drains, ditches etc. most of the time is spent standing around and trotting on the roads so not very exciting and not very hard work!


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## cptrayes (12 December 2014)

So you rode an unsound horse for October and November, he came sound towards the end of November and you thought it would be a good idea to hunt him for the first time ever in December. Even if that was light hunting that sounds like a recipe for disaster to me, sorry. I'd have wanted at least a month of soundness in conditions of complete control before I would have done that.

With that history, I don't think you can tell whether this is a fitness, soundness, temperament or lack of work issue, unfortunately.


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## FestiveFuzz (12 December 2014)

Aoibhinn said:



			Apologies, should have made myself clearer. He was very lame all summer and since about October he has been 95% sound during which I was doing light work with him in an arena. It is only in the last 2-3 weeks he has come 100% sound so I kicked the work up a notch. He is half Thoroughbred so is after getting for very quickly. 
He was on about 1kg of cool mix (no oats) a day which might have been contributing to the problem so has since been cut back. 
However, the rearing is a once off thing. I had him riding in a field a few weeks ago and he did get excited and bucked but this was my own fault, he had been standing in a stable all day and I took him straight into the field.  

His teeth were done in August and they are perfect. Nothing to do with I'll fitting tack either, it has been checked. Also, when ridden in the arena he has never put a foot wrong. I don't think it is down to the hounds either as there are 10 odd kept next to his stable which he sees every day. 
I had him out in May, June and July competing with groups of horses and never had any trouble. Trying to figure out what triggered it but by process of elimination there does not seem to be a trigger for it. 
He has never hunted before L&M.
		
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Personally I feel taking a horse with soundness issues hunting as soon as it's sound is just asking for trouble, but that's just my opinion. That aside, I do think there is a vast difference between seeing hounds next to the stable vs. going hunting with hounds though. Even the most placid of horses have been known to hot up when taken hunting for the first time.


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## smja (12 December 2014)

Aoibhinn said:



			I had him out in May, June and July competing with groups of horses and never had any trouble. Trying to figure out what triggered it but by process of elimination there does not seem to be a trigger for it.
		
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My horse ignores other horses completely at competitions, but requires some crafty riding when hunting or he boils over because the other are all going the same way as him - they are two very different situations, so I wouldn't underestimate the excitement factor.


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## blitznbobs (12 December 2014)

This thread is a wind up, surely???


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## FestiveFuzz (12 December 2014)

blitznbobs said:



			This thread is a wind up, surely???
		
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It did cross my mind. Have schools kicked out for Christmas yet?


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## EquiEquestrian556 (12 December 2014)

FestiveFuzz said:



			It did cross my mind. Have schools kicked out for Christmas yet?
		
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Some have.


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## ester (12 December 2014)

So this is a TB who has reared on one occasion, on his first time out hunting? And this is a surprise?

That's before we even get started on his semi-soundness/fitness.


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## EquiEquestrian556 (12 December 2014)

ester said:



			So this is a TB who has reared on one occasion, on his first time out hunting? And this is a surprise?

That's before we even get started on his semi-soundness/fitness.
		
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^^ Agree. Many horses rear on their first time out hunting, it's fairly common. I've seen so many horses rear up & sometimes over on their first time.


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## Summer pudding (12 December 2014)

blitznbobs said:



			This thread is a wind up, surely???
		
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I did wonder too???!!!


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## Aoibhinn (12 December 2014)

Unfortunately not a wind up guys. 

I was not keen on riding a horse that was not 100% sound but did so on the advice of my farrier who has been shoeing this horse for the past 5/6 years. He also told me to hunt him as soon as possible.


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## Nari (12 December 2014)

Aoibhinn said:



			Unfortunately not a wind up guys. 

I was not keen on riding a horse that was not 100% sound but did so on the advice of my farrier who has been shoeing this horse for the past 5/6 years. He also told me to hunt him as soon as possible.
		
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Well in that case I suggest you get some better advice & use some common sense. Or sell the poor horse before his brain is fried & his soundness is ruined.


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## cptrayes (12 December 2014)

Aoibhinn said:



			Unfortunately not a wind up guys. 

I was not keen on riding a horse that was not 100% sound but did so on the advice of my farrier who has been shoeing this horse for the past 5/6 years. He also told me to hunt him as soon as possible.
		
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Sack the farrier.


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## Slightlyconfused (12 December 2014)

cptrayes said:



			Sack the farrier.
		
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This and also get a vet to look at him if you only had the farrier sort his feet out.


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## be positive (12 December 2014)

Maybe your farrier will take him hunting next time, no mention of having a vet involved, to take a horse hunting for the first time when it is unfit and barely sound seems a recipe for all manner of things to go wrong, that you both came home in one piece is more down to luck than good judgement, maybe listen to the horse rather than the farrier who may be good but is not riding him. 
Give the horse a chance, get him properly fit and take time to introduce him to the excitement more carefully next time, go home if he really doesn't settle and if he does settle go home before he gets too tired or boils over, keep him at the back out of the way of other horses and he may well become a decent hunter if you don't rush him, the rearing was probably a protest from doing too much and his muscles were getting sore, or his feet were beginning to hurt again.


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## Arzada (12 December 2014)

Aoibhinn said:



			He also told me to hunt him as soon as possible.
		
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Why did he tell you to do this?


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## Wagtail (12 December 2014)

Aoibhinn said:



			Unfortunately not a wind up guys. 

I was not keen on riding a horse that was not 100% sound but did so on the advice of my farrier who has been shoeing this horse for the past 5/6 years. He also told me to hunt him as soon as possible.
		
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Personally, I would not take the advice of a farrier on such matters. Surely a vet would have been more qualified to offer this kind of advice?


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## Scatterbrain (12 December 2014)

What was the diagnosis for his lameness? Did your vet not give you a rehab/treatment plan to work to?


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## Amymay (12 December 2014)

So, lame for 5 months. Worked for a fortnight, and then hunted.

Class, sheer class.


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## ester (12 December 2014)

My lad is arguably not 100% sound, as are quite a few hunters I imagine. They are however worked carefully for a long time before hand (in particular doing several weeks/months of hacking of increasing level, not light school work). Importantly he also has the go ahead from the *vet* to continue with his current level of work for the time being (it is likely age related deterioration now rather than an acute injury). 

Why were you surprised he reared?


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## lme (12 December 2014)

Mine reared for the first time when asked to do something which she found painful because she had injured her back. She made her feelings very clear.


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## Rapidash (12 December 2014)

Regardless of whether the rearing and sudden work increase are connected, and let's face it they probably are, I don't think it's fair to take your horse hunting so soon after injury. Sorry but you did ask for our opinions in this thread


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## lhotse (12 December 2014)

Doesn't this post belong on ChitChat and Tack? Poor horse, hope this is a wind-up.


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## Illusion100 (13 December 2014)

Regardless of whether your horse is sound, the excitement of the hunt can send many a horse into unwanted acrobatics. Part and parcel. BUT..... given the background......

I appreciate your farrier gave his opinion but I think in this case it was very bad advice.

If this were my horse, I'd want a vet check and x-rays of front feet at least. 

IMO, horses rarely tend to act up unless there is a significant physical/mental issue (usually linked).

In any case, I don't think this horse is to blame for his rearing, I think he's had to tell you something in the only way he could.

Time to be a detective OP, I hope we have a positive update soon.


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## Aoibhinn (13 December 2014)

We got both his front feet x-rayed by an equine vet and the x-rays were clear. The only problem with his feet was that they were brittle and chipped back to the white line. He also pulled off his shoe twice which made them worse. Just to clarify, my farrier does know what he is talking about. It was only his left fore that was bad, the others are after coming right. At the moment he has artificial Equilox I think it's called, on the foot to protect it and allow it to grow without being hindered. 

The farrier told me to hunt him as soon as I could to give him the best chance of getting used to it. This is down to the fact that the Equilox is coming off his foot in a few weeks time which could mean he might be tender on the foot again, so therefore he would need a break. 

I have been working him all week and have been advised to take him out again tomorrow. Also been advised by more than a few people to get rid of him because he is too dangerous. My question is, would you keep him and give him another chance if he acts up again? Or cut the losses and get rid of him before anyone gets hurt. As somebody said above, it is sheer luck that nobody was injured.


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## Aoibhinn (13 December 2014)

Also, to people saying that he could be sore causing the rearing, he is perfectly sound. There is absoloutely nothing wrong with any of his feet, he galloped along the road for a mile after he dumped me and he is still not lame. If that didn't make him lame at this stage he must be fine. 
His tack is perfect, he is ridden in a loose ring snaffle with a lozenge.


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## Wagtail (13 December 2014)

Aoibhinn said:



			We got both his front feet x-rayed by an equine vet and the x-rays were clear. The only problem with his feet was that they were brittle and chipped back to the white line. He also pulled off his shoe twice which made them worse. Just to clarify, my farrier does know what he is talking about. It was only his left fore that was bad, the others are after coming right. At the moment he has artificial Equilox I think it's called, on the foot to protect it and allow it to grow without being hindered. 

The farrier told me to hunt him as soon as I could to give him the best chance of getting used to it. This is down to the fact that the Equilox is coming off his foot in a few weeks time which could mean he might be tender on the foot again, so therefore he would need a break. 

I have been working him all week and have been advised to take him out again tomorrow. Also been advised by more than a few people to get rid of him because he is too dangerous. My question is, would you keep him and give him another chance if he acts up again? Or cut the losses and get rid of him before anyone gets hurt. As somebody said above, it is sheer luck that nobody was injured.
		
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So you wanted to get a day's hunting in before he was off work again due to sore feet? Unbelievable.

And by 'get rid of him' I presume you mean shoot him?


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## Nudibranch (13 December 2014)

Sorry, but you need a new farrier. And get him seen by a vet. Properly. 
Then maybe think carefully about your own input into this. He is your horse at the end of the day.


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## Meowy Catkin (13 December 2014)

The quality of his horn can be greatly improved with altering his diet to a 'barefoot friendly' one (even if you want to keep him shod, as really it's just a sensible diet for all horses). Remember that it will take about 9 months to grow a new hoof capsule.

RE the Farrier's advice to hunt him soon, he is really only looking at what is right for that hoof, not looking at the whole picture. You as the owner need to assess if the horse is mentally and physically prepared in every other way too. I would say that taking an unfit horse that hasn't done anything exciting for months - as he's been lame - is setting the horse up to fail. 

If he was mine, I would go back to the level of work he was happily doing before the hunting incident and get him going nicely again. I would work on his fitness and then start to do some low key winter comps (if you can) when he's ready and see how he copes with that atmosphere and go from there.

ETA - I'd also probably get the Vet to have a look at the horse before going ahead with riding again. Just incase he's bilaterally lame after all that galloping on the road or something else is going on.


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## stormox (13 December 2014)

Lots of horses ger wired out hunting- and the worst thing you can do is to take them on a hunt where theres lots of standing around and trotting!! You got him when he was 11- he may have been hunted with a previous owner, galloping, jumping etc and he couldn't understand what all the pussy-footing around was.
Also, he wasn't rearing in the normal, backward thinking sense. He may have gone up on his hind legs but it was to enable himself to leap forward, from pure over-excitement.
The answer is simple- don't take  him hunting again. A horse hunting is in a totally different mindset from a horse competing. There are a lot of horses who are perfectly quiet competing and hacking that turn into lunatics hunting.


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## Meowy Catkin (13 December 2014)

S - I wouldn't be surprised if you were right and that this horse just won't make the sort of hunter that the OP wants. Therefore, if she gets him fully sorted and finds out what he does do nicely, she can sell him next year to a suitable home and get something that will do the job she wants.


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## ester (13 December 2014)

Aoibhinn said:



			I have been working him all week and have been advised to take him out again tomorrow. Also been advised by more than a few people to get rid of him because he is too dangerous. My question is, would you keep him and give him another chance if he acts up again? Or cut the losses and get rid of him before anyone gets hurt. As somebody said above, it is sheer luck that nobody was injured.
		
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I still don't understand why you were so surprised that he reared/behaved a bit out of character on his first time hunting. It's up to you what you do with him. I would agree with what stormox has said too, if you take him out again it would perhaps be better if you could go out where you know he will get a good run before he is expected to stand and arrange a solid hunting nanny for him for some calming vibes. 

You do know not everything shows up on x-ray? A horse really shouldn't be lame because of chipped feet.


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## stormox (13 December 2014)

I don't think he messed about because of lameness/soreness at all! Ive seen this behaviour with many,many perfectly sober horses when they first start hunting, and after a good few meets you find they either get calmer- or get worse and more and more excited each time. And I certainly wouldn't take an excitable horse on a meet where you 'stand around and trot on roads'  giving them time to buck/rear/kick... they need to get going forward, cantering on on grass and jumping. If theyr cantering on they wont have time to be messing.


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## bakewell (13 December 2014)

I'm only going to comment on an isolated aspect, as others have covered physical/ psych. aspects for the horse already:

I know you say the horse hasn't hunted before, but at 11 he may well have. If he was a total nightmare (and some horses are) and he was sold for a purpose different to hunting at some point in his life it's likely that information was omitted/ lost. 

I realise your hunt is very small and local. However to take a horse that is so dangerous he caused an accident that could have had fatal consequences (landing on another horses neck and almost kicking a rider in the head is not a minor whoopsie) out again is at best disrespectful to the field. A bad kicker is unpopular enough. 

So from this perspective alone I think you must refrain from hunting him again. By all means risk your own neck but this horse is dangerous to others. Yes, he may come right with training and exposure (or that accident might play out again with the worst consequences) but honestly, buy a hunter if you want a hunter.


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## Shantara (13 December 2014)

ester said:



			So this is a TB who has reared on one occasion, on his first time out hunting? And this is a surprise?

That's before we even get started on his semi-soundness/fitness.
		
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Ned was a horror out hunting on his first few times. Reared, bucked, kicked the hunt masters horse (eek!), wouldn't stand still and kept trying to tank off, even though he was more than used to hacking out with sometimes 10+ horses, often galloping and jumping things. Thankfully, I wasn't the one riding! By the time I took him, he was a saint. Didn't think about doing anything stupid. 
Maybe it was just the excitement and lack of fitness, as others have said.


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## Aoibhinn (13 December 2014)

Bakewell, that is exactly what I was thinking! Seriously lucky that he did not injure the other lad last week. 
Another man has offered to take him out for me tomorrow which I think might be a good idea as he would probably be better able to handle him than I am. 
Also, somebody said maybe he was hunted before which could be true. The girl I bought him from had him 5 years and she said she hadn't hunted him, but that still leaves 6 years unaccounted for so he could well have been hunted before. 
I have talked to the hunt master and asked him if it is ok to bring him out again and give him a second chance and he has agreed. Will just have to wait and see how he goes tomorrow.


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## Rapidash (13 December 2014)

Aoibhinn said:



			Bakewell, that is exactly what I was thinking! Seriously lucky that he did not injure the other lad last week. 
Another man has offered to take him out for me tomorrow which I think might be a good idea as he would probably be better able to handle him than I am. 
Also, somebody said maybe he was hunted before which could be true. The girl I bought him from had him 5 years and she said she hadn't hunted him, but that still leaves 6 years unaccounted for so he could well have been hunted before. 
I have talked to the hunt master and asked him if it is ok to bring him out again and give him a second chance and he has agreed. Will just have to wait and see how he goes tomorrow.
		
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Well, let us know how you get on...


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## FellOutOfFavour (13 December 2014)

Aoibhinn said:



			Unfortunately not a wind up guys. 

I was not keen on riding a horse that was not 100% sound but did so on the advice of my farrier who has been shoeing this horse for the past 5/6 years. He also told me to hunt him as soon as possible.
		
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I thought you'd only owned the horse since April? So if the farrier has known him for longer does the farrier know if he has a history of unsoundness. Either way it sounds like you need to sack your farrier, consult a vet for any future episodes of lameness and give the poor horse a chance.


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## Aoibhinn (13 December 2014)

Cobscando, my farrier has been shoeing the horse for the last 5 years for the woman that owned him. He said he never had issues with soundness, but he was only really being ridden 2-3 times a week and not doing very hard work. We believe that his feet began giving trouble once he started being ridden 5-6 times a week and doing much harder work. Anyway, that is beside the point. 

I trust my farrier and am sure he knows what he is doing. We got advice from a vet and x-rays of the feet and the vet said the exact same thing as my farrier.


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## Echo Bravo (13 December 2014)

Some horses can't take hunting it does their normal brains, like my old skewbald he loved it but would get over excited like rearing, he couldn't take the stop start part of it. But it does sound like this was his first time. But if he's not fit for your purpose sell him on and not as a hunter.


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## Nudibranch (13 December 2014)

But has the rest of the leg/pelvis/back etc been checked by a vet? Just x raying the feet doesn't rule out a million other possible issues. Just chipped hoof shouldn't cause that much lameness. Hunting aside, I would be seriously looking into this. I certainly wouldnt have ridden an unsound horse on the say so of a farrier and without a proper vet work up.


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## cptrayes (13 December 2014)

Aoibhinn said:



			I trust my farrier and am sure he knows what he is doing. We got advice from a vet and x-rays of the feet and the vet said the exact same thing as my farrier.
		
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Your vet told you, having only x rays to go on and with no idea whatsoever what soft tissue injuries there might be inside the horse's feet, to ramp up the exercise even more (an increase which was already credited with laming the horse)   And expose it to hunting with large amounts of trottting on the road.

I'll change my advice. Don't just sack the farrier, sack the vet too.


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## Nari (13 December 2014)

cptrayes said:



			Your vet told you, having only x rays to go on and with no idea whatsoever what soft tissue injuries there might be inside the horse's feet, to ramp up the exercise even more (an increase which was already credited with laming the horse)   And expose it to hunting with large amounts of trottting on the road.

I'll change my advice. Don't just sack the farrier, sack the vet too.
		
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I agree!


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## Aoibhinn (13 December 2014)

There is absoloutely nothing wrong with the horses health! He does not have a soundness issue anymore, how could it be anything in his back when he is going perfectly in the arena and in fields at home? He is even carrying himself in an outline WITHOUT being asked to.


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## Aoibhinn (13 December 2014)

What happened to his feet was that they became brittle and he got grass cracks in them. Then he proceeded to pull off the shoe which pulled off some of the hoof with it, did the same to a second shoe and pulled off more hoof to expose the white line which was why he was lame. We know exactly what happened to make him lame and it has since been fixed with a lot of time and effort. His feet just became too brittle for some reason. 
I would appreciate if people would stop telling me to sack my vet & farrier. They are very experienced and know exactly what they are doing. Very hard to judge unless you have been dealing with the horse yourself. We have since done all we could to fix him up and he is now doing well


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## PonyclubmumZ (13 December 2014)

Honestly if you don't like the advice please don't ask for it.

For what its worth, if my horse reared like that when hunting I would NEVER take him again as he is a danger to others.


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## cptrayes (13 December 2014)

Aoibhinn said:



			There is absoloutely nothing wrong with the horses health! He does not have a soundness issue anymore, how could it be anything in his back when he is going perfectly in the arena and in fields at home? He is even carrying himself in an outline WITHOUT being asked to.
		
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Your horse has been sound barely a month and may actually just be bilaterally lame in front so it isn't showing. You have no idea why he was lame. No one even really tried to find out why he was. In your own words, increasing his exercise from previous levels made him lame. And yet you are determined to hunt him. Poor horse


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## Aoibhinn (13 December 2014)

Ponyclubmum, apologies for being sharp but it is very hard to judge other peoples situations. 

Your answer is the type of one I was looking for. If it is safe to bring a horse like that out again or not.


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## Aoibhinn (13 December 2014)

Cptrayes, we did find out the reason he was lame? His foot broke all the way back to the white line, exposing the nerves and making him extremely footsore. We got him x-rayed just to be sure it wasn't navicular or something like that.


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## cptrayes (13 December 2014)

Aoibhinn said:



			What happened to his feet was that they became brittle and he got grass cracks in them. Then he proceeded to pull off the shoe which pulled off some of the hoof with it, did the same to a second shoe and pulled off more hoof to expose the white line which was why he was lame. We know exactly what happened to make him lame and it has since been fixed with a lot of time and effort. His feet just became too brittle for some reason. 
I would appreciate if people would stop telling me to sack my vet & farrier. They are very experienced and know exactly what they are doing. Very hard to judge unless you have been dealing with the horse yourself. We have since done all we could to fix him up and he is now doing well
		
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The history you mention would not lame a horse for months.  And why did your vet x Ray if all that was wrong was a bit of missing hoof. I'm sorry, I don't believe you are doing right by this horse.


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## cptrayes (13 December 2014)

Aoibhinn said:



			Cptrayes, we did find out the reason he was lame? His foot broke all the way back to the white line, exposing the nerves and making him extremely footsore. We got him x-rayed just to be sure it wasn't navicular or something like that.
		
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That won't do, sorry, that won't lame a horse for months and you have already said that people believe he went lame due to the increase in work.


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## Aoibhinn (13 December 2014)

X-rayed him just in case we were wrong and it was something more serious like navicular. 
The hoof needed time to grow again so until it did he was lame. Also, it became infected after about a month and had to be cut back again to let out the infection which set him back about a month.


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## PonyclubmumZ (13 December 2014)

I don't think it is safe, many horses do the odd half rear with excitement when out hunting, but what you have described is a very serious reaction that could cause a dreadful accident if repeated.  I would keep him at home hacking or take him indoor show jumping if you need some winter excitement.


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## cptrayes (13 December 2014)

I hope to goodness this thread's a wind up because otherwise I'm utterly speechless!


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## FellOutOfFavour (13 December 2014)

Aoibhinn said:



			Cptrayes, we did find out the reason he was lame? His foot broke all the way back to the white line, exposing the nerves and making him extremely footsore. We got him x-rayed just to be sure it wasn't navicular or something like that.
		
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In my opinion a vet or farrier that tells you to ride a horse who is lame for such a reason should be struck off.


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## Aoibhinn (13 December 2014)

We believe that the increased workload and diet change caused his feet to become brittle. Also the fact that he pulled off two shoes, taking bits of the hoof with it. It was mainly his left fore that was bad, his right fore has come perfect again.


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## FestiveFuzz (13 December 2014)

Aoibhinn said:



			Ponyclubmum, apologies for being sharp but it is very hard to judge other peoples situations. 

Your answer is the type of one I was looking for. If it is safe to bring a horse like that out again or not.
		
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But that's the thing, it's not incredibly hard to judge, you just don't want to listen to what the majority of us have been saying. 

By your own admissions the farrier thought the increase in workload had contributed to the horses lameness yet after almost an entire summer off due to being unsound you saw fit to take said horse hunting for the first time after only a week back in work and then wondered why he acted up.


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## Aoibhinn (13 December 2014)

Ponyclubmum, yes that's what I was thinking as well. It was pure luck that no one was seriously injured. He is getting another chance tomorrow with someone else riding him and if he does the same then he is just not going to be suitable as a hunter!


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## WelshD (13 December 2014)

Aoibhinn said:



			There is absoloutely nothing wrong with the horses health! He does not have a soundness issue anymore, how could it be anything in his back when he is going perfectly in the arena and in fields at home? He is even carrying himself in an outline WITHOUT being asked to.
		
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With respect though you are expecting him to be lame again (or at least very footsore) once the protective stuff is removed from the hoof/s... that doesnt sound like the situation has been resolved

If tomorrow doesnt go well I think I'd be tempted to turn the horse away now until the lameness is treated then bring hiim back in to work next spring with the aim of trying hunting again next autumn.

I hate to say it but it sounds like hunting has become a real focus for everyone involved with this horse and I fear its possible that its clouding judgement


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## Aoibhinn (13 December 2014)

WelshD said:



			I hate to say it but it sounds like hunting has become a real focus for everyone involved with this horse and I fear its possible that its clouding judgement
		
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Just wondering what you mean by this? Also, the horse has been checked by many people, my neighbour who has ridden for the last 50 years, my instructor, the huntsman etc and all said that he was perfectly sound and to ride him on. 
Honestly, I haven't had much of a day in what to do with him. I am only 16 so have had to do what I was told by my parents. Wasn't mad keen to hunt him last week because I wasn't sure if he could stick it but there wasn't a bother on him trotting on the roads, and indeed, throwing me off either! Don't think that soundness is an issue for him at this moment in time thankfully.


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## PonyclubmumZ (13 December 2014)

Aoibhinn said:



			Ponyclubmum, yes that's what I was thinking as well. It was pure luck that no one was seriously injured. He is getting another chance tomorrow with someone else riding him and if he does the same then he is just not going to be suitable as a hunter!
		
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Why ask our opinion about whether you should hunt him again if he is going tomorrow!  I think you are stupid to let him go again, I hope your friends parents are aware that he nearly killed you last time you took him out.


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## Aoibhinn (13 December 2014)

Ponyclubmum, what am I supposed to do? It was either let this man, who is much stronger and more experienced than me ride him - he actually rang and offered to ride him for me to try and sort him out- or I ride him which could end diasastrously. 
Everyone in the hunt has been very nice about it and agreed that he should come out again. But my parents told me that if the same thing happened he had to go, so all I was looking for was some advice on how best to tackle the subject if it came down to it, for example, if anyone knew of horses that had done this before and had turned out ok?


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## cptrayes (13 December 2014)

Aoibhinn said:



			Ponyclubmum, what am I supposed to do? It was either let this man, who is much stronger and more experienced than me ride him - he actually rang and offered to ride him for me to try and sort him out- or I ride him which could end diasastrously. 
Everyone in the hunt has been very nice about it and agreed that he should come out again. But my parents told me that if the same thing happened he had to go, so all I was looking for was some advice on how best to tackle the subject if it came down to it, for example, if anyone knew of horses that had done this before and had turned out ok?
		
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What you are supposed to do is wait longer to ensure the horse is truly sound, take longer to increase his fitness, expose him to some more exciting situations during that time and then try hunting him again very late this season or early next.

From your name I'm guessing you are in Ireland?  You have different ideas about hunting over there than us. For example, most people would not dream of hunting a three year old in England, but it's routine in Ireland.

I think most of us here feel your horse simply should not be being sent hunting tomorrow.


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## FestiveFuzz (13 December 2014)

cptrayes said:



			What you are supposed to do is wait longer to ensure the horse is truly sound, take longer to increase his fitness, expose him to some more exciting situations during that time and then try hunting him again very late this season or early next.

From your name I'm guessing you are in Ireland?  You have different ideas about hunting over there than us. For example, most people would not dream of hunting a three year old in England, but it's routine in Ireland.

I think most of us here feel your horse simply should not be being sent hunting tomorrow.
		
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Took the words right out of my mouth CPT. I really don't think there's anything more to add except I'm utterly amazed by how many people IRL seem to be encouraging the OP to continue down this path and just feel awfully sorry that there's no one looking out for this horse's best interests.


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## WelshD (13 December 2014)

What i mean by it is that everyones focus seems to be hunting. A farrier may tell you its safe to up the work but would they suggest hunting in particular? It sounds like you may be surrounded by die hard hunts people whose focus is getting a days hunting in while the horse shows any signs of being sound.

You have already admitted to wanting to go hunting now because you expect the horse to be lame again soon.


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## Leo Walker (13 December 2014)

My award winning farrier thought my horse was fine, my vet thought he was fine but needed remedial shoeing to fix him. The vet writes articles for H&H and is an amazing vet. They were both wrong! I addressed the reasons why mine had foot problems, took me from July this year and only now is he coming right. He will always be high maintenance, but he is sound and happy now. 

It IS difficult when you rely on professionals, but they arent always right! You need to do your own research. I still use the original vet, and hes happy with my boy as he is now.


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## FellOutOfFavour (13 December 2014)

cptrayes said:



			What you are supposed to do is wait longer to ensure the horse is truly sound, take longer to increase his fitness, expose him to some more exciting situations during that time and then try hunting him again very late this season or early next.
		
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Couldn't agree more. You came on here looking for advice and cptrayes is absolutely spot on with her advice. I hope you will take her advice on board.


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## Aoibhinn (13 December 2014)

I guess we do do things differently over here, much tougher than the English!  
I am trying to look after the horse and do what everyone thinks is best for him, it is difficult to find the good advice among the bad I suppose. In the grand scheme of things I am not that experienced, I have my pony club B test but that isn't much help in figuring this out I'm afraid!


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## Illusion100 (14 December 2014)

cptrayes said:



			From your name I'm guessing you are in Ireland?  You have different ideas about hunting over there than us. For example, most people would not dream of hunting a three year old in England, but it's routine in Ireland.
		
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Whoa there!!!  I'm Irish and to say 3 yr olds are hunted as routine is way off mark. I recently overheard an english trainer state no Irish horse can be mounted from a block either! I appreciate you are unhappy with the info the OP has detailed in this thread, I also agree with your advice/opinion, however I find sweeping statements regarding the attitiude of the Irish towards horses to be inappropriate and unfair!


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## Aoibhinn (14 December 2014)

Illusion, we know that the Irish horses are the best! It was more a thing from the Celtic Tiger I suppose when 2/3 year olds were hunted, doesn't happen as regularly anymore


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## Illusion100 (14 December 2014)

Aoibhinn said:



			Illusion, we know that the Irish horses are the best! It was more a thing from the Celtic Tiger I suppose when 2/3 year olds were hunted, doesn't happen as regularly anymore 

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Haha! Irish horses rule! 

But seriously, if I caught an Irish person hunting a 2 yr old...... 

I think the problem is that your horse has been unsound, was unfit and we both know the Irish don't always hold a steady hunt! Your horse displayed some very serious behaviour and it was lucky no-one/other horse was hurt.

This doesn't mean your horse won't make a hunting horse, who knows? My advice to you and your parents would be, give this horse a proper check over, if given the all clear, put him on a fittening programme, take him out and about to new places and take things steady before hunting again. Your parents wouldn't want you with a broken neck.....or worse. 

If this guy wants to hunt him, your choice. It could go well or very badly. It depends on the risk you all are prepared to take at this early and unknown stage.


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## Lucyloo25 (14 December 2014)

Personally if I my vet/farrier told me to hunt and up the work load despite only just coming back into work, I would get a second and even a third opinion of different vets. Maybe he just needs more time out? Build up his strength and ensure he isn't lame at all before hunting. I had a pony once who was lame but would rarely seem lame as he was so eager to please he just carried on. It needs to be checked really.. 

Also, he might just not be a hunter, my yard owners horse is a fantastic competition horse events to a good level, yet the second you take him hunting he turns into an absolute nightmare, he is ridiculously dangerous and it is scary how he behaves. This could be the case, he could just not be cut out for hunting. 

If you want him hunted that is your decision, however, if it was my horse I definitely wouldn't if he was that dangerous. That isn't enjoyable for anyone around him or whoever is riding him, I think it's a big risk to take.. Do your parents know how dangerous he is hunting? Could you not do something even more low key with him? Like exercising the hounds (if he is sound) to get him used to that environment. When my old horse was a nightmare to hunt, the hunt allowed me to accompany them whilst exercising the hounds and it really did cool his head down for the next seasons hunt.

I hope no one gets hurt if he does go hunting OP.


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## Aoibhinn (14 December 2014)

Lucyloo, they are aware of how bad he was as they saw the whole thing. It even managed to scare my dad, which doesn't happen easily! 

Illusion, that's the Irish for ya again, too tough to try and give in to anything. Will definitely take him handy today and hope it goes well. I have been working him all week and he has been foot perfect so just have to wait and see.


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## cptrayes (14 December 2014)

Apologies to anyone on Ireland I have offended. I thought that in rural Ireland where there is still fairly indiscriminate breeding going on, judging by the lorry loads of horses dealers are bringing over here,  it was considered normal and educational to take a three year old out hunting.  I'm very glad to hear that it's not routine. 

I do wonder how many English farriers would have given the advice we have read on this thread, though. I hope he's a one off.  I expect the horse will be for sale tonight.


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## Aoibhinn (14 December 2014)

Thank you for the vote of confidence cptrayes.......


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## Nari (14 December 2014)

cptrayes said:



			............  I expect the horse will be for sale tonight.
		
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For the horse's sake I hope he is.


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## turnbuckle (14 December 2014)

Well how did it go?


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## Wagtail (14 December 2014)

A horse that is lame without pads is just lame.


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## cptrayes (14 December 2014)

Aoibhinn said:



			Thank you for the vote of confidence cptrayes.......
		
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I'm sorry, but I can't see a single reason to think this horse is being well managed, from what you have written. If there's more we don't know, apologies,  but from what you have written I would not want a horse of mine treated that way, and as you can see from my avatar,  I'm a hard hunting nut, no fluffy bunny!


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## Illusion100 (14 December 2014)

cptrayes said:



			Apologies to anyone on Ireland I have offended. I thought that in rural Ireland where there is still fairly indiscriminate breeding going on, judging by the lorry loads of horses dealers are bringing over here,  it was considered normal and educational to take a three year old out hunting.  I'm very glad to hear that it's not routine. 

I do wonder how many English farriers would have given the advice we have read on this thread, though. I hope he's a one off.  I expect the horse will be for sale tonight.
		
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Oh yes, there is still indiscriminate breeding going on (same as over here). The practise will continue until other people stop buying them. Yes, there are people who believe hunting 3 yrs olds is educational, plenty that don't and won't. 

In every country all over the world people will having hugely diverging views on producing/training horses even if they only live a few miles apart. Being Irish, English, Russian or whatever holds no bearing on giving an opinion. I'm sure farriers all over the world have given advice that others wouldn't agree with, nothing to do with being Irish.


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## SpringArising (14 December 2014)

In my opinion, the following needs to happen:

- You need to decide if this horse is too much for you. It's perfectly OK to put your hands up and say you've bitten off more than you can chew.
- Somebody (qualified) other than your current vet/farrier needs to look at this horse. A second opinion is ALWAYS worth it. The fact that he appeared sound at the hunt could easily be to do with the amount of adrenaline running through his body.
- You need to decide if you want to hunt again or not.

Personally, I'd turn the horse away for a couple of weeks. It sounds like you could both do with a break from the stresses of riding for the moment. Then, build up his work gradually (and by that, I mean slow hacking and schooling for a couple of months). After that, providing he's sound, get him out to some low-level shows and meets. 

I appreciate that your parents might have a say in what you do (and maybe the hunt), but YOU have to put your foot down for the sake of your horse. No one else can or will do that for him. 

The hunt don't care about him - they just want a good day's hunting; for them, the more horses there are, the more exciting it will be!

Some horses just can't hunt - it's either too physically demanding or too stressful.


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## JillA (14 December 2014)

Sorry, I haven't had chance to read all the replies but I just had to say the only horse I knew who reared out of nowhere had acute kissing spines. He was so well mannered that he suppressed the early symptoms of pain until he couldn't cope with it any more and from being polite and well mannered he just suddenly went up. Worth thinking about - and the other associated health problem is gastric ulcers. You might do well to rule out both before you do any more with him.


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## Woody Le Bois (14 December 2014)

Aoibhinn said:



			Ponyclubmum, what am I supposed to do? It was either let this man, who is much stronger and more experienced than me ride him - he actually rang and offered to ride him for me to try and sort him out- or I ride him which could end diasastrously. 
Everyone in the hunt has been very nice about it and agreed that he should come out again. But my parents told me that if the same thing happened he had to go, so all I was looking for was some advice on how best to tackle the subject if it came down to it, for example, if anyone knew of horses that had done this before and had turned out ok?
		
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Maybe don't hunt him at all??? Yes he is sound now and no one is condemning you for wanting to ride him: if he is sound then nothing stands in your way. What everyone is trying to tell you is that you should bring him back to work slowly and carefully, not ride him for a week and then expect him to go hunting. Your approach is frnakly idiotic and this horse will be lame again very soon if you don't change your management!!


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## EquiEquestrian556 (14 December 2014)

How did it go OP?


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## L&M (14 December 2014)

Not wanting to stir, but my horse hunted as a 3 yr old in Ireland - at 4/5yrs old he had done a full season&#8230;&#8230;

Which is probably why he has splints!


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## Kezzabell2 (14 December 2014)

from my experience, my horse is a known rearer, when he doesn't like something! but he only does bunny hops but when he went up vertical 3 times for no reason, I got the vet out and discovered it was pain related!!  so if your horse has been lame and is now doing this, id carry on investigating the lameness to see whether its causing this reaction!

my boy has bone spurs!


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## Arizahn (14 December 2014)

The horse has extremely bad feet for whatever reason, and is unfit after time off. He spent an hour and a half signalling his discomfort to you on the day of this hunt by "bucking and prancing" - which you describe as him "being a brat". You go on in your next post to mention that he had got "excited and bucked" whilst being ridden in  a field a few weeks ago. So this signalling has been on-going. Your hunt mostly just "stands around or trots on the roads" - what an intriguing mixture of boredom, stress and concussive impact on legs/hooves. No wonder this already unsound horse on his first time out eventually reacted so unhappily. After an hour and a half, mind you. He sounds far too genuine for his own good.

Stop riding this "not entirely sound" but clearly very long suffering horse and tell your parents to get another full veterinary work-up done - he's lame and his hooves are falling apart; there is no quick fix for this. He will need time, more time, and even more time. His feet will need care, his diet will need addressing; there is a reason his horn is brittle and the white line exposed! The barefoot diet has already been suggested. And if this farrier has been doing his feet for years, then he should have spotted the issue long before it reached this point. So your parents should get a better farrier too; one who doesn't advise hunting a lame horse.

And no, I don't think you should continue to hunt this horse. I think your parents should take him out of work and sort out his issues properly, from the inside out. I think he will take at least a year to come right, and that's only if he hasn't seriously harmed himself further during his reaction to the pain he was so clearly in on your hunt. Congratulations on the x-rays of his hooves being clear; I suspect he also now needs x-rays of many other areas having been galloping on roads, especially Irish roads, which are awful at the best of times.

Threads like this are one of the reasons that mine will never be sold...


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## Aoibhinn (14 December 2014)

Am I being unclear when I say that the horse is perfectly sound. He is not lame or injured in any way anymore. 

Unfortunately looks like hunting is not his thing though. He was taken out today and was excited, but not bold like last week. He just can't handle the standing around part around the other horses. 

Lunged him before he went out and he was perfectly calm. But when we got to the meet (5 mins down the road) he was all excited again. Let hunt go on ahead of myself and lad riding horse for me. He took the horse into a field and galloped him for a few minutes and then we followed the hunt. I was staying with him on my pony to keep him a bit calmer. 

We went in to another field where we could look across into another field where the other horses were (about 8 of them) and horse was perfectly calm, standing still and relaxed. However, when he was ridden up towards the ditch between the fields nearer to the other horses he began to act up again. Backing up, throwing his head around etc. 

Lad riding took him away to opposite side of field and cantered him around again, brought him back to pack and did the same thing again. Brought him on the road for a few mins to try and calm him down, which he did, when he was away from the other horses. 

He didn't buck or rear but he was not able to stay standing around the other horses. Had to keep moving the whole time. And he didn't tire, at all. And I mean, he did not get tired and let up. Lad galloped him about 10 miles during the 2-3 hours he was out and horse was still pulling like a train and unable to stand around the other horses. 

I wonder if he was brought out a few more times would he get used to it and calm down? Or should he be left at that, don't bother hunting him again?


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## catroo (14 December 2014)

How could you let someone gallop around like that on your horse when he's unfit - it doesn't matter he was excited or pulling . . . 

I'm obviously soft as I would never treat a horse like that


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## Aoibhinn (14 December 2014)

Catroo, he was just trying to see if he could calm him down. And the horse was actually pulling him to gallop.


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## PonyclubmumZ (14 December 2014)

Aoibhinn said:



			So about two weeks ago he came sound and I rode him for a week before taking him hunting last Sunday.
		
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Aoibhinn said:



			Lad galloped him about 10 miles during the 2-3 hours he was out and horse was still pulling like a train and unable to stand around the other horses.
		
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3 weeks ago you found that he was just sound, you rode him for 2 weeks and then took him hunting and today you let him gallop for 10 miles.  Do you know what, I am almost at a loss for words!  I think you should sell him and go back to basic lessons and stable management, I would be horrified if any child/teen I knew did what you have described.  Please get some professional help for you and your ponies.


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## 3Beasties (14 December 2014)

Aoibhinn said:



			He didn't buck or rear but he was not able to stay standing around the other horses. Had to keep moving the whole time. And he didn't tire, at all. And I mean, he did not get tired and let up. Lad galloped him about 10 miles during the 2-3 hours he was out and horse was still pulling like a train and unable to stand around the other horses. 

I wonder if he was brought out a few more times would he get used to it and calm down? Or should he be left at that, don't bother hunting him again?
		
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He may well settle the more he does, he may not. It depends how much you want to hunt him as to if it's worth trying again or not. 

Also, he may well be sound now but if you continue with him the way you are doing (galloping an unfit horse for 10 miles!!) he will certainly not be sound for long.

I personally would give up on hunting him this season, get his hooves sorted, build his fitness, build a relationship with him and then quietly take him on hound exercise towards the end of the summer, followed by autumn hunting when it starts.


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## Arzada (14 December 2014)

Aoibhinn said:



			Catroo, he was just trying to see if he could calm him down. And the horse was actually pulling him to gallop.
		
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There are ways of calming a horse and galloping around isn't one of them.


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## catroo (14 December 2014)

Aoibhinn said:



			Catroo, he was just trying to see if he could calm him down. And the horse was actually pulling him to gallop.
		
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Pulling or not it's irrelevant, that's adrenaline working through him. It's one thing trying to take the edge of a fit horse, another thing to try and exhaust an unfit horse until it behaves. Keep on like that and he'll drop dead


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## ilvpippa (14 December 2014)

My girl is a rearer; she tears when she's excited or having a strop! Mostly when leading in hand; ridden she will sort of contain herself to a frog leap & be a general madam. If it's not a pain related things (please check! And assess the over all riding in general; as my girl started going disunited in canter & bucking which turned out to be a huge hole in her meniscus!) my girl still rears and has all her life so I know this isn't pain; I generally ignore the rears as getting cross makes it worse & I try to keep her moving forward and sometimes recruit someone to help as soon as her adrenaline is back to normal she's fine. My girl hunted before injury and she never tired; ever. She is such a hardy girl who never shows pain or illness so I have to watch her carefully; if yours is like this I would investigate the lameness again as sometimes like mine the will to carry on & do exciting things overcomes the pain their in & damage there doing.


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## Aoibhinn (14 December 2014)

Ok give me a break, 10 miles is more than a bit of an exaggeration on my part! Just trying to say that he galloped him a lot and the horse still wouldn't settle


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## Aoibhinn (14 December 2014)

Ilvpippa, I don't think he is trying to be tough and keep going, this lads a big drama queen! He was feeling very sorry for himself all summer, well able to turn on the charm to get cuddles and kisses. I don't think he would actually be able to hide it if he was injured, he just loves the attention he gets from it!


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## cptrayes (14 December 2014)

Aoibhinn said:



			Ok give me a break, 10 miles is more than a bit of an exaggeration on my part! Just trying to say that he galloped him a lot and the horse still wouldn't settle
		
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Jesus wept!


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## Arzada (14 December 2014)

Aoibhinn said:



			Ok give me a break, 10 miles is more than a bit of an exaggeration on my part! Just trying to say that he galloped him a lot and the horse still wouldn't settle
		
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That's because galloping around isn't a way of calming a horse.


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## Arzada (14 December 2014)

Aoibhinn said:



			Ilvpippa, I don't think he is trying to be tough and keep going, this lads a big drama queen! He was feeling very sorry for himself all summer, well able to turn on the charm to get cuddles and kisses. I don't think he would actually be able to hide it if he was injured, he just loves the attention he gets from it!
		
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Please get some books or some internet articles about equine behaviour - horses don't work as in your quote above


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## L&M (14 December 2014)

If you really want him to hunt he needs to go out twice a week until it becomes 'normal' to him.

A friend has had a real battle with her new one and started it off at the end of Autumn hunting, and on a couple of occasions had to take it home as it was dangerous. The field were all commenting on how she would never make it into a 'hunter' and she should give up.

However a few mnths into the season it is transformed - but it has taken a lot of hard work and guts on her part!


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## Aoibhinn (14 December 2014)

Ok, I think I know the horse better that anyone on here. I know for a fact that he is a drama queen. He does not 'tough it out' he lets you know there's something wrong with him.


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## Cheiro1 (14 December 2014)

This thread has made me angry.

I don't care whether you are in England, Ireland or sodding Iceland. You have hunted a horse who has barely come sound TWICE in quick succession.

You won't have a chance to hunt this horse if you continue like that, you will be putting a bullet in his head because he's broken down from working unfit.

I would have known better than that at 12, let alone 16.

Back off with the poor horse, do 6 weeks fitness work (starting SLOWLY) and then take him out at the end of the season when he is fit and hopefully still sound!!!!

ETA horses are PREY animals. Their INSTINCT is to cover up lameness/illness, it could mean the difference between life and death!!! Any, ANY, horse will cover up lameness to a certain degree.


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## Aoibhinn (14 December 2014)

L&M, it would probably help to take him out twice a week, unfortunately we only meet once a week. We also don't have Autumn hunting (is that what it's called?') over here or hound exercise.


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## Aoibhinn (14 December 2014)

Every single person I talked to told me to hunt this horse as soon as possible to try and get him used to it. I am only doing what I have been advised to do. Honestly, at least 30 people have said this to me, including vet, instructor & farrier


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## FestiveFuzz (14 December 2014)

Aoibhinn said:



			Ok, I think I know the horse better that anyone on here. I know for a fact that he is a drama queen. He does not 'tough it out' he lets you know there's something wrong with him.
		
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But horses don't work like that. Horses don't act like drama queens for no reason. 

Out of all this I just feel dreadfully sorry for the horse. I'm amazed at your stupidity. Galloping an unfit horse about is hardly going to calm it down now is it?!


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## Arzada (14 December 2014)

Aoibhinn said:



			Ok, I think I know the horse better that anyone on here. I know for a fact that he is a drama queen. He does not 'tough it out' he lets you know there's something wrong with him.
		
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So stop asking for advice on this forum - go back to your farrier and get his advice


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## 3Beasties (14 December 2014)

Aoibhinn said:



			Every single person I talked to told me to hunt this horse as soon as possible to try and get him used to it. I am only doing what I have been advised to do. Honestly, at least 30 people have said this to me, including vet, instructor & farrier
		
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I very much doubt that 30 knowledgeable horse people would tell you to hunt the horse if they knew that he's only just come sound and been back in work for a couple of weeks.


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## L&M (14 December 2014)

Yes - Autumn hunting is what used to be known as cubbing and is a quieter version of hunting, so ideal for getting green horses used to hunting and hounds. We are lucky in England as can start hunters off with hound exercise in the late summer, then onto AH, then full hunting come the end of Oct. So a horse could start 'hunting' in July so by full hunting has no issues.

I do feel for you, as you are obviously only still young and have had a hard time on here. If you truly think the horse is physically comfortable, maybe work on its fitness and ask the 'lad' to ride it for a month or so, then make a decision from there.


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## Arzada (14 December 2014)

Aoibhinn said:



			I am only doing what I have been advised to do. Honestly, at least 30 people have said this to me, including vet, instructor & farrier
		
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No you're not - people on this forum have been giving you some fantastic advice and you just won't listen. Try rereading the thread and look out for the posts (and that's pretty much the whole thread) which give you advice based on considering the horse.


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## cptrayes (14 December 2014)

Aoibhinn said:



			Every single person I talked to told me to hunt this horse as soon as possible to try and get him used to it. I am only doing what I have been advised to do. Honestly, at least 30 people have said this to me, including vet, instructor & farrier
		
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You are either asking the wrong questions or the wrong people. Your poor, poor horse.


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## Aoibhinn (14 December 2014)

That sounds like something that could be useful over here. Horses and children are usually just thrown in at the deep end, you have to learn to swim pretty fast! 

People seem to have very strong opinions on this site, but most are just concerned that I can't look after my horse. Which I do understand, I know what I've been doing with him sounds bad but honestly, it is all in his best interests. I am 110% certain that he is perfect physically. Haha apologies for the use of the word 'lad', didn't even realise I was doing it! Yeah, I might ask him if he could ride him again for me, if he's not completely sick of him. I'd say he had a miserable day on him today, had to stay away from everyone. 

Thank you for your advice


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## cptrayes (14 December 2014)

Aoibhinn said:



			That sounds like something that could be useful over here. Horses and children are usually just thrown in at the deep end, you have to learn to swim pretty fast! 

People seem to have very strong opinions on this site, but most are just concerned that I can't look after my horse. Which I do understand, I know what I've been doing with him sounds bad but honestly, it is all in his best interests. I am 110% certain that he is perfect physically. Haha apologies for the use of the word 'lad', didn't even realise I was doing it! Yeah, I might ask him if he could ride him again for me, if he's not completely sick of him. I'd say he had a miserable day on him today, had to stay away from everyone. 

Thank you for your advice
		
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It is NOT in the best interests of a horse which was lame until three weeks ago, and has had only light work for months, to be galloped around to try to tire him out to make him behave in the hunting field, and it never will be.


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## Aoibhinn (14 December 2014)

Arzada, most people here have been telling me that the horse is injured in some way, when I know for a fact that he is 100%


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## Arzada (14 December 2014)

Aoibhinn said:



			I know what I've been doing with him sounds bad but honestly, it is all in his best interests.
		
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Can you expand on this? Why is this in his best interests?


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## FestiveFuzz (14 December 2014)

Aoibhinn said:



			That sounds like something that could be useful over here. Horses and children are usually just thrown in at the deep end, you have to learn to swim pretty fast! 

People seem to have very strong opinions on this site, but most are just concerned that I can't look after my horse. Which I do understand, I know what I've been doing with him sounds bad but honestly, it is all in his best interests. I am 110% certain that he is perfect physically.
		
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In that case I do still think you need to have a long, hard look at your fitness regime. There is no way a horse that has had most of the summer off with soundness issues would be physically fit enough to do the kind of work you've been putting him through, and whilst he might seem ok now I would bet any money that he won't be for much longer if you keep hammering him.


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## Aoibhinn (14 December 2014)

I am doing my best to keep the horse at the moment. Lots of people also told me to 'shoot the ****** before he hurts someone'. I managed to convince people to give him a second chance, which has so far bought him some time.


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## Arzada (14 December 2014)

Aoibhinn said:



			Arzada, most people here have been telling me that the horse is injured in some way, when I know for a fact that he is 100%
		
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I think that even if people accept that he is 100% sound they still have a problem with your tactics because the horse isn't fit physically or mentally for hunting/galloping around in the vicinity of the hunt. Throwing this horse (what is his name?) in the deep end isn't working.


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## FestiveFuzz (14 December 2014)

Aoibhinn said:



			Arzada, most people here have been telling me that the horse is injured in some way, when I know for a fact that he is 100%
		
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We have only gone by what you have told us. I don't know anyone who would take a newly sound horse hunting after only a couple of weeks back in work.


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## Aoibhinn (14 December 2014)

He has become extremely fit very quickly. I have been working him well for the last two weeks and he is as fit as a flea now! He is half thoroughbred which helped fitten him, but that could also be part of the reason he gets so hot headed


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## cptrayes (14 December 2014)

Aoibhinn said:



			Arzada, most people here have been telling me that the horse is injured in some way, when I know for a fact that he is 100%
		
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With feet that your farrier says will be sore again in the very near future. That is NOT a horse who is 100 per cent.


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## Arzada (14 December 2014)

Aoibhinn said:



			I am doing my best to keep the horse at the moment. Lots of people also told me to 'shoot the ****** before he hurts someone'. I managed to convince people to give him a second chance, which has so far bought him some time.
		
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How much time do you have? And does his second chance mean that he has to be a hunter or can you find him a different career?


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## Aoibhinn (14 December 2014)

Well, not fit as a flea but fitter than my pony who has been ridden all year! And she is fairly fit. 
He's called Copper


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## Aoibhinn (14 December 2014)

The farrier said he might be sore on it, but that's not certain.


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## cptrayes (14 December 2014)

Aoibhinn said:



			He has become extremely fit very quickly. I have been working him well for the last two weeks and he is as fit as a flea now! He is half thoroughbred which helped fitten him, but that could also be part of the reason he gets so hot headed
		
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This has to be a wind up thread, doesn't it?  The horse is only a half bred and was galloped for miles unfit. The OP is hunting a pony who is even less fit.  What next?

I think maybe you should just take the advice of the hunt and have him shot, Aoibhinn.


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## Arzada (14 December 2014)

Aoibhinn said:



			He has become extremely fit very quickly. I have been working him well for the last two weeks and he is as fit as a flea now! He is half thoroughbred which helped fitten him, but that could also be part of the reason he gets so hot headed
		
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This is simply impossible and this is probably one reason why some people have wondered if this thread is a windup (something I'm wondering just now) because you come out with an outlandish statement like this. And then you say something sensible and people chip in to try to help you.


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## Aoibhinn (14 December 2014)

Arzada, I think he helped get more time by not acting up today, but unsure of how long. 
It would be great if he could hunt but I was mainly aiming him towards pony club eventing in the summer


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## Aoibhinn (14 December 2014)

I have no idea how he fittened up so quickly, he has been living out all the time so he was keeping himself fairly fit all along which must have helped


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## cptrayes (14 December 2014)

Aoibhinn said:



			I have no idea how he fittened up so quickly, he has been living out all the time so he was keeping himself fairly fit all along which must have helped
		
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He didn't. It's not physically possible. The adrenaline just takes over and you are mistaking it for fitness.

If this thread is genuine, which I now doubt.


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## Auslander (14 December 2014)

You're all wasting your time people! In the immortal words of George Carlin "Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience".


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## Wagtail (14 December 2014)

I smell a troll.


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## PolarSkye (14 December 2014)

Aoibhinn said:



			He has become extremely fit very quickly. I have been working him well for the last two weeks and he is as fit as a flea now! He is half thoroughbred which helped fitten him, but that could also be part of the reason he gets so hot headed
		
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Hang on . . . I'm really struggling to understand how the muscle structures in your horse are any different to any other part bred TB in the country or on the planet . . . yes, TBs (and part breds - I have one - a WB with a high percentage of TB) are stressheads and adrenalize very quickly (and stay "high") but getting them really fit, well muscled and ready to do any sort of demanding work (like hunting) takes time and effort.  From what I remember, your horse has been out of any real work (or, to be charitable been in intermittent work) due to lameness for quite some time.  How on earth has he/she become hunting fit in the space of just two weeks?

I know you are young (you're 16, right?) and you seem relatively inexperienced so I feel you really do need to find someone knowledgeable to help and guide you before you break your horse for good (meaning broken as in needs to be PTS).

Horses (any horses - natives, TBs, arabs, etc.) do not become hunting fit after just two weeks . . . their muscles, lung capacity, metabolism, etc., just don't work that way.

Please get some help from someone really knowledgeable before you ruin your lovely horse to the point that he needs to be put to sleep.  And, no, I am not being melodramatic.

P


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## 3Beasties (14 December 2014)

Aoibhinn said:



			I have no idea how he fittened up so quickly, he has been living out all the time so he was keeping himself fairly fit all along which must have helped
		
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I have a full TB, he is 19 and has been out of work for nearly 4 months. Tomorrow if I so fancied it I could take his tack down to the yard, tack him up and take him for a gallop. What the hell, I may even jump him too or see if the hunt are about and take him out for a couple of hours. My horse, being the willing animal that he is would no doubt do all of this, more than likely he will run off adrenalin, he may seem well up for it and fit enough for the job BUT, and it's a VERY BIG BUT!! He won't be!!! Just because a horse does as you ask of it willingly, it doesn't mean we should ask them to do it!

I of course won't do the above with my horse, I value him far more than to risk injuring him or worse, killing him! He will be brought back into work slowly and carefully, starting with walking and gradually/slowly building up. I will be lucky if he is fit enough to 'gallop' by Easter.

NO horse can get hunting fit in a couple of weeks. It's impossible.


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## flurryjuno (14 December 2014)

Aoibhinn said:



			I have no idea how he fittened up so quickly, he has been living out all the time so he was keeping himself fairly fit all along which must have helped
		
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This has to be a wind up or and I'm sorry for saying this, you're plain stupid! I'm 17, my horse has been out of work for just over a month and I wouldn't DREAM of taking her out hunting even if it was for an hour! 

Plus when people are talking about soundness they aren't just talking about his feet. When did you last get the saddle checked? Physio/osteo? Dentist? Vet for a check up at least? Horses can show pain through all sorts of ways and there is no way you can be 110% sure without checking, and not through your farrier or the vet who sounds dodgy coming from your posts! I had a farrier who gave me loads of 'useful' tips and info, didn't mean I had to use any of it as this was the same man who would batter his horse with blue pipe to teach it a lesson!

I've just skimmed through this thread so sorry if I got something wrong.


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## Aoibhinn (14 December 2014)

Maybe he is just running on adrenaline so, I didn't think that he would be able to go for so long unless he was after fittening very quickly but I must be wrong. 

His teeth, back etc have all been checked and all are perfect so I don't think it has anything to do with his physical health.


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## FellOutOfFavour (14 December 2014)

Wagtail said:



			I smell a troll.
		
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This is what I've been thinking for a fair while now. One thing does puzzle me though - I don't think I have ever seen a troll with such a good grasp of spelling and grammar.


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## Arzada (14 December 2014)

CobsCanDo said:



			One thing does puzzle me though - I don't think I have ever seen a troll with such a good grasp of spelling and grammar.
		
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Great isn't it!


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## EquiEquestrian556 (14 December 2014)

Cheiro1 said:



			This thread has made me angry.

I don't care whether you are in England, Ireland or Iceland. You have hunted a horse who has barely come sound TWICE in quick succession.

You won't have a chance to hunt this horse if you continue like that, you will be putting a bullet in his head because he's broken down from working unfit.

I would have known better than that at 12, let alone 16.

Back off with the poor horse, do 6 weeks fitness work (starting SLOWLY) and then take him out at the end of the season when he is fit and hopefully still sound!!!!

ETA horses are PREY animals. Their INSTINCT is to cover up lameness/illness, it could mean the difference between life and death!!! Any, ANY, horse will cover up lameness to a certain degree.
		
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Agree with you Cheiro1. I'm 13, and would NEVER hunt my mare after coming back into work so soon. Poor horse.


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## muckypony (14 December 2014)

If not a troll, a complete fool!


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## Apercrumbie (14 December 2014)

Aoibhinn said:



			Ok, I think I know the horse better that anyone on here. I know for a fact that he is a drama queen. He does not 'tough it out' he lets you know there's something wrong with him.
		
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In a hunting situation complete wusses miraculously become lions - they are full of adrenaline, which helps numb pain and means that he will ignore any physical discomfort, such as a complete lack of fitness, as they are in 'flight mode'.  If I took my unfit boy hunting tomorrow, he would be a nightmare - pulling, bucking and galloping everywhere - because he would be so excited that he wouldn't notice the damage he would be doing to himself.  Honestly, he would keep himself going for hours, when on normal rides atm he's only doing limited canter work as he isn't fit enough.

The hoof problems need addressing urgently from the inside out.  Have a search on here for threads about the barefoot diet.  He doesn't have to be barefoot but the diet is all about ensuring healthy strong hoof growth, it takes time and effort but you will thank yourself in a year.  There is a lot of excellent information on this forum about it - I think there is a sticky thread somewhere too.

I massively disagree with the 'hunt him now because he'll be lame soon' idea - that is no way to look after a horse.  Reassess your priorities, you don't need to hunt.  Take the time to really sort out his hooves, get him fitter and make sure that there aren't any other physical issues that could have caused the lameness.  

I understand that you feel you don't have much sway over your horse's management, but you need to stand up for your horse and do what is right for him.  I didn't shout loud enough when I was 12 and my pony was in pain, I let others tell me she was just being naughty when I just knew something wasn't right.  It took over a year to get her right again as the damage had already been done.  I still feel guilty years later.


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## Nudibranch (14 December 2014)

Well having followed this thread I am convinced it has to be someone rather sad and bored trolling. Christmas holidays I guess. 
Alternatively, in the unlikely event that you are genuine op, then I really cannot think of anything to add other than that you are a disgrace to the hobby and unfit to own a horse. Sorry.


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## Aoibhinn (14 December 2014)

His diet has been reassessed and he is now on a completely new one to help keep his feet as good as possible, which is working a treat at the moment.


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## EquiEquestrian556 (14 December 2014)

My New Forest, who keeps herself VERY, VERY fit, could never go hunting after the whole summer off. It's impossible that Copper could of kept his muscle tone all that time without doing any work, and then suddenly be fit enough to gallop 10 miles? Maybe an experienced instructor, or different vet should look at him?


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## flurryjuno (14 December 2014)

EquiEquestrian556 said:



			Agree with you Cheiro1. I'm 13, and would NEVER hunt my mare after coming back into work so soon. Poor horse.
		
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Are you actually 13?! You are very very mature and I love reading your posts on your ponies, sorry off topic but wanted to say


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## Aoibhinn (14 December 2014)

He was fairly skinny when I got him, but since he had most of the summer off he filled in nicely and really got a lot stronger. Even within the last month or two he has turned into a much stronger, nicer looking horse which I am delighted with  I didn't even notice until the other day when my neighbour commented on it. Then when I had a look back at some old pictures I saw that it was a very noticeable difference


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## EquiEquestrian556 (14 December 2014)

flurryjuno said:



			Are you actually 13?! You are very very mature and I love reading your posts on your ponies, sorry off topic but wanted to say 

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Yes I am, and thank you


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## 3Beasties (14 December 2014)

Can you post some pics of him OP?


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## Nudibranch (14 December 2014)

Aoibhinn said:



			His diet has been reassessed and he is now on a completely new one to help keep his feet as good as possible, which is working a treat at the moment.
		
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Right. This is the horse with exposed white lines, who you say is about to go lame again soon? Whose teeth, back etc have all been checked and are 100% yet you are asking how could anything be wrong with his back if he goes in an outline. 
So, when did a vet last see him? When was he last given a work up for his lameness and who gave him the all clear?
Just bizarre.


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## FestiveFuzz (14 December 2014)

flurryjuno said:



			Are you actually 13?! You are very very mature and I love reading your posts on your ponies, sorry off topic but wanted to say 

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Off topic but I completely agree with this, I had no idea you were 13!


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## Aoibhinn (14 December 2014)

3B, I have been trying to figure out how to post pics but can't find it...any idea how?


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## Fun Times (14 December 2014)

OP I want to put this into context for you. My incredibly fit eventer has been out of work since October 31st but turned out 24/7 during that period. My vet has worked up a programme for bringing him back to fitness. It starts with two weeks in hand work for 15 to 20 mins and gradually builds from there. He won't be cantering under saddle for atleast eight weeks. This is not to compensate for the injury itself, this is to compensate for the fitness and muscle lost during the rest period and to ensure he is safely brought back to top fitness. Compare the regime which you have adopted for your horse and take into account the fact your horse had a much longer period off and therefore will be starting with less "residual fitness" than mine. Does this help explain one of the reasons people are unhappy with the management of the horse?


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## EquiEquestrian556 (14 December 2014)

Aoibhinn said:



			3B, I have been trying to figure out how to post pics but can't find it...any idea how?
		
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You need Photobucket or Pinterest, then


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## PolarSkye (14 December 2014)

Aoibhinn said:



			Maybe he is just running on adrenaline so, I didn't think that he would be able to go for so long unless he was after fittening very quickly but I must be wrong. 

His teeth, back etc have all been checked and all are perfect so I don't think it has anything to do with his physical health.
		
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I am giving you the benefit of the doubt . . . 

. . . my, at that point, very fit Polish sport horse went hunting last winter for the first time in four years . . . he had hunted twice a week in the season before I bought him but not since.  We hunted him three times . . . the first time he was a saint at the meet until they moved off, at which point he threw some impressive shapes and found the whole thing rather exciting . . . he was a good boy between lines, but was rather strong when galloping.  However, he fell over on the road because he simply wouldn't wait and his feet went out from underneath him - large haematoma on his girth line, bruising (or so we thought) to his carpal bone in front and a skinned stifle.  Two weeks off to let the haematoma go down/truly resolve (and vet care) and he was back working.  He was competing at dressage (and winning), jumping (and placing), going to jumping clinics (with a four star event rider), and hunted twice more.  The second time he hunted he pulled his jockey's arms out - he was completely ungovernable . . . rearing and plunging going downhill and generally causing mayhem . . . we had upped his bit from a waterford with fulmer cheeks to a pelham.  He was so lit up when they got back (after four lines of galloping and jumping) that he wouldn't stand still for his jockey to dismount - had to lead him to some grass so she wasn't in danger of coming off on the concrete - and was so excited that he reared when tied up the lorry.

The third time we took him out, he wore an American Gag . . . he still pulled his jockey's arms out, after four lines of hunting, he still jogged sideways back to the lorry and it took three of us to take his tack off.

When we got him home - we turned him out for a roll and he galloped round the field.

After all three hunting outings he didn't eat for nearly a week . . . all of the above was caused by adrenalin.  It's a wonderful and powerful thing . . . especially for a prey animal.  Adrenalin is what makes an injured animal run even though a predator is chasing it.

Your horse is hunting on adrenaline . . . and it doesn't sound like he's sound or fit enough.  The fact that he's hunting well and galloping and jumping isn't an indication of his fitness or soundness . . . it's just a symptom of being full of adrenalin - something he can access/produce very easily given what/who he is.  

Please consider not hunting him until you have got to the bottom of his soundness issues, AND changing your vet and farrier . . . I wish you the best with your lovely boy - I really do - but, from what I have read, I don't think you are receiving the best advice.

P


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## EquiEquestrian556 (14 December 2014)

FestiveFuzz said:



			Off topic but I completely agree with this, I had no idea you were 13!
		
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Thank you


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## Aoibhinn (14 December 2014)

Nudi, his teeth were done in August and checked again on Wednesday to make sure they were ok. His back and his feet were all checked before I began riding him properly around mid October. His feet were done again just last week. 
I cannot stress enough that it is nothing physically wrong with him! 
And it is not so much going in an outline, that is the least of my concerns at the moment. I was just trying to get across that even if something was missed when he was checked over, it surely would have shown up every time he was ridden, and not just last week when he was brought out hunting? As in, I have been riding him in the arena and in fields and he has been an angel.


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## Amymay (14 December 2014)

Aoibhinn said:



			Catroo, he was just trying to see if he could calm him down. And the horse was actually pulling him to gallop.
		
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A horse in a high state of excitement, with so much adrenaline coursing through them is a virtual bottomless pit in terms of the energy it can produce.

Understand that and you'll start to understand the horse.

Not every horse takes to hunting, and it actually sounds as if it's blowing his brains.

It's such a shame you can't take a step back from this and look at the situation objectively.  It's also a shame you don't have an experienced person to mentor you - but we can't all be that lucky I guess.


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## FestiveFuzz (14 December 2014)

Aoibhinn said:



			I have been riding him in the arena and in fields and he has been an angel.
		
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I thought he bucked when you took him in the field?


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## Apercrumbie (14 December 2014)

If he's otherwise an angel why are people suggesting shooting him?  There are plenty of horses who can't mentally cope with hunting.


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## Aoibhinn (14 December 2014)

PE, the thig is, he is 100% when I ride him at home. And he is such an angel, a real pet. He is the type of horse you would feel safe riding anywhere, my younger sister even rode him back before he went lame, and she is only 8 without much experience. That is why it is so hard to understand why he went absoloutely ballistic last week. Fair enough if he was excited and just got hot around the collar, became strong or something like that. What he did was seriously dangerous. I actually thought he was going to kill someone. 
It is impossible to believe that it is the same horse as the one I bought a few months ago. I know people will find fault with this but anyway, to put it into perspective, while he was lame I'd be in the field with him and because we had a lovely summer the ground was bone dry, so I'd just lie down on the grass next to his head while he grazed. And he was minding me, he watched where he moved so he wouldn't bring his feet too close to me for example. 

He is such a sweetheart and it breaks my heart to try and hunt him so soon, but my parents aren't very experienced and they are really only listening to the people around us who are experienced,  who in turn are only looking out for us, and they said to hunt him on, and try and get him used to it and calm him down.


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## EquiEquestrian556 (14 December 2014)

Fun Times said:



			OP I want to put this into context for you. My incredibly fit eventer has been out of work since October 31st but turned out 24/7 during that period. My vet has worked up a programme for bringing him back to fitness. It starts with two weeks in hand work for 15 to 20 mins and gradually builds from there. He won't be cantering under saddle for atleast eight weeks. This is not to compensate for the injury itself, this is to compensate for the fitness and muscle lost during the rest period and to ensure he is safely brought back to top fitness. Compare the regime which you have adopted for your horse and take into account the fact your horse had a much longer period off and therefore will be starting with less "residual fitness" than mine. Does this help explain one of the reasons people are unhappy with the management of the horse?
		
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Very well put FT. 

OP, for your horse's sake, and the fact that you asked for advice on here, please listen to what people are suggesting/ advising on here. Like you, we only want the best for Copper, and many of us (including me) don't believe that Copper should even be cantering yet after the amount of time he has had off work. 

I'm a very experienced hunter, and despite the fact that my mare is very fit generally, in the sense that she could be off for a month, just mooching in a field, and still jump a 1m course without puffing or sweating much, doesn't mean she should, just because she can. 

Hunters must be very fit, and fitness doesn't just mean galloping 10 miles without getting tired, it's how long it takes for them to recover, and getting their breath back. My mare is currently hunting fit, and despite being 13.3hh, could probably gallop for 10 miles, but she would be running off adrenaline, not fitness.

For the sake of Copper, please get someone experienced other than your farrier & vet, and listen to what people are saying on this thread.


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## Aoibhinn (14 December 2014)

FestiveFuzz, he did too, but that was completely my fault. I wasn't thinking at all when I took him out that day. He had been standing in all day and I just took him straight into the middle of a 5 acre field. To be fair to the horse, that wasn't his fault at all.


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## Nudibranch (14 December 2014)

Ok, well if he is truly sound, which Im afraid I am not convinced about, then you have three realistic possibilities.  One, the horse is not fit enough for what he's just been through. Two, he does not have sufficient positive experience of hunting. Three, he is mentally unsuited to it.
Most likely is a combination of all of them. However the answer is not letting someone else get on and try and bully it out of him. Back off, give him time out and for the last time, get him seen by a VET!
I dont think anyone is going to come on and say youre on the right track so if you dont want to listen then dont post because youre just irritating people at the expense of that poor animal.


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## Aoibhinn (14 December 2014)

People suggested shooting him because what he did was seriously dangerous last week. To put it into perspective, he jumped on top of another horse, nearly kicking the rider in the head and then I was lucky the kick he gave me wasn't much worse. He then galloped blindly down the road, he could easily have gone straight into any oncoming vehicle. A truck actually came up the road about 30 seconds after someone had managed to catch him. Imagine the carnage if he had run himself into that?


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## NinjaPony (14 December 2014)

Please for the love of god put your horse first. Stop trying to hunt him. Stop galloping him. Stop jumping him. Get a really good vet to have a look, then devise a fitness plan. A long, slow, fitness plan. And if after a LOT of prep he still doesn't take to hunting then either accept that, and don't hunt and find something else to do, or sell him to a non-hunting home.


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## PolarSkye (14 December 2014)

Aoibhinn said:



			PE, the thig is, he is 100% when I ride him at home. And he is such an angel, a real pet. He is the type of horse you would feel safe riding anywhere, my younger sister even rode him back before he went lame, and she is only 8 without much experience. That is why it is so hard to understand why he went absoloutely ballistic last week. Fair enough if he was excited and just got hot around the collar, became strong or something like that. What he did was seriously dangerous. I actually thought he was going to kill someone. 
It is impossible to believe that it is the same horse as the one I bought a few months ago. I know people will find fault with this but anyway, to put it into perspective, while he was lame I'd be in the field with him and because we had a lovely summer the ground was bone dry, so I'd just lie down on the grass next to his head while he grazed. And he was minding me, he watched where he moved so he wouldn't bring his feet too close to me for example. 

He is such a sweetheart and it breaks my heart to try and hunt him so soon, but my parents aren't very experienced and they are really only listening to the people around us who are experienced,  who in turn are only looking out for us, and they said to hunt him on, and try and get him used to it and calm him down.
		
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My boy is usually so placid that I'd let a four-year-old child lead him to the field on a piece of cotton (well, in theory - he's still a horse) . . . what they are like at home is no indicator of what they'll be like on the hunting field.  

Your horse may be a sweetheart, but why does that mean he should go hunting?  What is this fixation with him going hunting?  Did you buy him to hunt?  Your family/parents are inexperienced so I assume they aren't going to take him hunting?  What did you buy him for?  What "job" is he supposed to be doing with you?  If the plan is that you will do some lower level competitions (dressage, SJ, hunter trials, etc.) on him, he doesn't need to be going hunting.  And that's without the lameness issues.

Honestly, this has me very confused.

P


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## Aoibhinn (14 December 2014)

I honestly wasn't going to even bring him today until Greg offered to ride him for me. Everybody told me that I had to bring him, I couldn't leave it at that but to be quite frank, that thought was scaring the life out of me all week. It was either let Greg ride him or I ride him and I figured that he might give the horse a better chance of doing well because he wouldn't be sitting on top of him gripping the reins for dear life. He also knew the country very well so he was able to hang back and try calm him down before we set off and caught up with them


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## LauraWheeler (14 December 2014)

Aoibhinn said:



			People suggested shooting him because what he did was seriously dangerous last week. To put it into perspective, he jumped on top of another horse, nearly kicking the rider in the head and then I was lucky the kick he gave me wasn't much worse. He then galloped blindly down the road, he could easily have gone straight into any oncoming vehicle. A truck actually came up the road about 30 seconds after someone had managed to catch him. Imagine the carnage if he had run himself into that?
		
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DO NOT HUNT THIS HORSE.
weather you value your life or even your horse. This situation put other people in dangour. People who were hunting and also members of the general public.


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## Aoibhinn (14 December 2014)

I bought him as an all rounder. The job he's supposed to do is hunter trial in the spring & autumn, pony club eventing, show jumping etc. during the summer and then the plan was to be able to hunt him for the winter.


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## flurryjuno (14 December 2014)

Aoibhinn said:



			It was either let Greg ride him or I ride him
		
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Or let no one ride him and sort his issues out first? I don't see what the obsession with hunting is, its not going to affect other peoples lives if YOUR horse goes out hunting!


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## PolarSkye (14 December 2014)

Aoibhinn said:



			I honestly wasn't going to even bring him today until Greg offered to ride him for me. Everybody told me that I had to bring him, I couldn't leave it at that but to be quite frank, that thought was scaring the life out of me all week. It was either let Greg ride him or I ride him and I figured that he might give the horse a better chance of doing well because he wouldn't be sitting on top of him gripping the reins for dear life. He also knew the country very well so he was able to hang back and try calm him down before we set off and caught up with them
		
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He's your horse.  If you don't want him to hunt, he doesn't hunt - end of.  Do you have someone who can speak up for you?  I'm still not getting why everyone around you believes that hunting is the right thing for your boy . . . all very odd.

P


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## Aoibhinn (14 December 2014)

Unfortunately it's not as simple as that P, if he doesn't hunt he goes. Basically


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## cptrayes (14 December 2014)

Aoibhinn said:



			He also knew the country very well so he was able to hang back and try calm him down before we set off and caught up with them
		
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If someone asked me for a recipe how to overcook a horse's brain in the hunting field, this would be it, hang back, then catch up.


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## 3Beasties (14 December 2014)

Could you show your parents this thread? It might highlight the risk to the horse (and you) of continuing as you are with him. Surely they don't want any more vet bills?!


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## cptrayes (14 December 2014)

Aoibhinn said:



			Unfortunately it's not as simple as that P, if he doesn't hunt he goes. Basically 

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Why?

Goes where?

I smell goats.


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## Apercrumbie (14 December 2014)

Why does he have to go if he can't hunt?  You said you bought him for a different job!


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## PolarSkye (14 December 2014)

Aoibhinn said:



			I bought him as an all rounder. The job he's supposed to do is hunter trial in the spring & autumn, pony club eventing, show jumping etc. during the summer and then the plan was to be able to hunt him for the winter.
		
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He doesn't have to hunt now to do all those things . . . hunting doesn't make a better eventer - in fact, if a horse is nappy alone (I have one of those), hunting reinforces the problem because hunting is all about following the crowd/other horses and eventing/hunter trialling requires horses to be brave out there on their own.

If I were you, I would knock the hunting on the head for now and concentrate on getting him consistently sound, fit and then (and only then) out having fun with you competing.

P


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## FestiveFuzz (14 December 2014)

You're contradicting yourself now. Why if he's meant to be an all rounder would he be sold if he doesn't hunt?



Aoibhinn said:



			Unfortunately it's not as simple as that P, if he doesn't hunt he goes. Basically 

Click to expand...




Aoibhinn said:



			I bought him as an all rounder. The job he's supposed to do is hunter trial in the spring & autumn, pony club eventing, show jumping etc. during the summer and then the plan was to be able to hunt him for the winter.
		
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## avthechav (14 December 2014)

Aoibhinn said:



			People suggested shooting him because what he did was seriously dangerous last week. To put it into perspective, he jumped on top of another horse, nearly kicking the rider in the head and then I was lucky the kick he gave me wasn't much worse. He then galloped blindly down the road, he could easily have gone straight into any oncoming vehicle. A truck actually came up the road about 30 seconds after someone had managed to catch him. Imagine the carnage if he had run himself into that?
		
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And knowing this you are still planning on letting this horse go hunting? I don't get it if your aim is pc eventing in the summer? If it was me I would be taking it slow and increasing the workload towards summer eventing....if he stands up to that try him next season with early autumn hunting and a sensible companion. Nice and quiet and geared towards training young horses.  Tbh I wouldn't ever try a horse hunting for this first time mid season, no matter what the background, I would always wait for the autumn and see what I have got on those quiet early morning where there are less people around to get hurt if things too go wrong.


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## PolarSkye (14 December 2014)

Aoibhinn said:



			Unfortunately it's not as simple as that P, if he doesn't hunt he goes. Basically 

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What do you mean "goes" . . . ?

P


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## Aoibhinn (14 December 2014)

Look, I'm sorry if I have annoyed people. It is a very difficult situation to explain, probably made even more difficult trying to explain it over the internet. 

I really do care for him. He's important to me but he needs to do the job I want him to do. Maybe it's just not his thing? I'm going to try and work him away and see how he goes. Look, if he can't hunt he can't hunt, there's no point putting anyone in danger over it. He is an absolute sweet heart and all I want is what's best for him, which I know hasn't really been so clear in the above posts. I'm aware that it looks like I don't care about him and all I want to do is hunt. I have a pony that I can hunt if he can't, so really it's no big deal. It just means that keeping him will have to be seriously thought about again. 

I appreciate everyone's time and effort and I do sincerely apologise for causing this uproar, I didn't mean to. My original question was would it be safe to keep a rearer but that's beside the point now! Thanks again and I really am sorry!


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## lhotse (14 December 2014)

Hello Rileyboy...


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## Aoibhinn (14 December 2014)

Just to clarify, if we had autumn hunting here I would happily take him to it to ease him into it, but unfortunately we don't. Also, our mid-season is really no different from our start of season, it's not very exciting at any part of the season! We basically hunt within a 10 mile radius, so the same ground every week


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## 3Beasties (14 December 2014)

Aoibhinn said:



			I appreciate everyone's time and effort and I do sincerely apologise for causing this uproar, I didn't mean to. My original question was would it be safe to keep a rearer but that's beside the point now! Thanks again and I really am sorry!
		
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From what you have posted I wouldn't say he is a 'rearer'. He reared because of the situation he was put in. You have been offered endless advise on here about how to avoid it happening again (although obviously no one can guarantee that he won't ever rear!).


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## FestiveFuzz (14 December 2014)

Aoibhinn said:



			Look, I'm sorry if I have annoyed people. It is a very difficult situation to explain, probably made even more difficult trying to explain it over the internet. 

I really do care for him. He's important to me but he needs to do the job I want him to do. Maybe it's just not his thing? I'm going to try and work him away and see how he goes. Look, if he can't hunt he can't hunt, there's no point putting anyone in danger over it. He is an absolute sweet heart and all I want is what's best for him, which I know hasn't really been so clear in the above posts. I'm aware that it looks like I don't care about him and all I want to do is hunt. I have a pony that I can hunt if he can't, so really it's no big deal. It just means that keeping him will have to be seriously thought about again. 

I appreciate everyone's time and effort and I do sincerely apologise for causing this uproar, I didn't mean to. My original question was would it be safe to keep a rearer but that's beside the point now! Thanks again and I really am sorry!
		
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I still don't understand, you didn't buy him to hunt in the first place so why should him not hunting make any difference to whether you keep him or not?


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## PolarSkye (14 December 2014)

To answer your original question - I have a rearer - he's safe as houses - with the right rider on him and in the right circumstances.  I manage him appropriately, he is established when he rears (knows exactly where his back feet and body are); doesn't do it very often; and (so far) hasn't put anyone else (other horses/riders) in danger when he does it.

From your original post, I would say that you should never take your horse hunting again because it clearly blows his brain, but if you just want to compete him (without hunting) and he can contain himself out hacking, at competition, etc., I'd keep him . . . but, unfortunately, you can't claw back what you have already said about him (and you, and your family and those around you).

P


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## Aoibhinn (14 December 2014)

But FF, I did buy him with the intention of hunting him in the winter? It is not the end of the world if he can't I suppose. Will just have to try and get my parents to see that he can't do everything and it does 'blow his brain' as P put it, which is a very accurate description! 

Does anyone know how to post pictures from a phone? I have one of him from today, not very good, but just to give someidea of what he's like


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## FestiveFuzz (14 December 2014)

Aoibhinn said:



			But FF, I did buy him with the intention of hunting him in the winter? It is not the end of the world if he can't I suppose. Will just have to try and get my parents to see that he can't do everything and it does 'blow his brain' as P put it, which is a very accurate description! 

Does anyone know how to post pictures from a phone? I have one of him from today, not very good, but just to give someidea of what he's like 

Click to expand...

Yes but your main aim was to have an all rounder, that you could do a bit of everything with so I don't think it's fair to get rid of him after a couple of times out hunting. At least not until you've given him a chance by making sure he's fit and capable of what you're asking of him.

As for photos if you download the photobucket app you can upload pics and then just copy the IMG url and paste it here.


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## Nari (14 December 2014)

The people advising shoot him, who are presumably the same people advising you on how to manage him, are pointing the gun at the wrong animal imo.


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## Fun Times (14 December 2014)

OP what do you want people to say? In this post I am not going to reference horse's fitness or soundness as that has been done unequivocally above. So your original qu was basically can a rearer come good. The answer is that in the right hands and in the right circumstances some can certainly be improved. Would I take on the task? No I wouldnt. Whether you want to take on the task, only you can answer but reading between the lines I do not think you have the experience or the nerve (no disrespect, I too do not have the braves to deal with this sort of thing).  If you do not feel you can deal with his behaviour on the hunt field but you want to keep the horse to do the other jobs you mentioned just stay off the hunting field.


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## AandK (14 December 2014)

I took my TB hunting for the first time about 3yrs ago. He is THE most polite horse, both to handle and to ride, he never pulls out cantering (alone or in company) or going XC, he is a real gent. He was a complete nutter hunting, totally blew his brain, I could not hold him, any attempt to try and slow him down was met with leaping and plunging. I had to abandon plans to jump as he was just crazy. I had owned him over 9yrs at that point (bought as 5yo) and it was like someone had swapped my polite, sane horse with a fruit loop! I was gobsmacked at the change in his behaviour.

I think you may need to accept that this horse is not cut out to be a hunter, before he or someone else gets hurt. Why can't you keep him if he can do hunter trials and event though? And please, do some reading on how to get a horse properly fit, it is impossible for any horse to get hunting fit in two weeks, living out 24/7 or not.. As others have said, adrenaline will keep him wanting to run all day.


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## lhotse (14 December 2014)

Do the schools in Ireland break up early for Christmas? This is a great thread, keep it going!


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## avthechav (14 December 2014)

Aoibhinn said:



			Just to clarify, if we had autumn hunting here I would happily take him to it to ease him into it, but unfortunately we don't. Also, our mid-season is really no different from our start of season, it's not very exciting at any part of the season! We basically hunt within a 10 mile radius, so the same ground every week
		
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Fair enough, well in that case don't hunt him. One rearing incident doesn't make your horse a rearer per se... but the risk to yourself and others if you try this horse in the same situation again appears large. He may calm down if given a chance to be introduced quietly but if in your situation you cannot do this then I do not think it's fair to the horse or to other people to risk trying again at this point in time. I think you said that you had this horse since April? (Apologies if I have made that up) that is still a relatively short time and you will still be getting to know each other, especially given his time off. Maybe next season you will know each other a bit better and be able to try again with a lower risk factor.  I think risking yourself is one thing (and wisely you don't seem keen on that) but risking your horse and other people around you is a different kettle of fish I think.


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## Arizahn (15 December 2014)

Aoibhinn said:



			Unfortunately not a wind up guys. 

I was not keen on riding a horse that was not 100% sound but did so on the advice of my farrier who has been shoeing this horse for the past 5/6 years. He also told me to hunt him as soon as possible.
		
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So the horse isn't sound, according to the OP. That rather contradicts their more recent posts of the horse being "110% sound", but I digress.

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?675897-Lameness-Isuue-Hoof-Boots-Please-help! 

For context, this is the OP's previous thread from August of this year that describes the hoof issues and how they were treated. Apparently they began in July of this year. I stand by my earlier post regarding that there is no way that a horse with these issues would be fully sound and fit for hunting by now. Hence all of the pain based behaviour that has been described; bucking, rearing, running off whilst fuelled with adrenaline (trying to escape the pain).


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## Illusion100 (15 December 2014)

I'd just like to add something here.

The OP is 17, the abuse she's been given is not on. She's in a situation where professionals and parents are backing her into a corner and now she's subjected to a witch hunt.

I'm Irish and sick to the back teeth of the stereotyping. I'll have my turn, I was younger than OP hacking my young pony out alone. He all of a sudden stopped, refused to go forward and when I pushed him he reared, lost balance and nearly came over. Shaken up I rode back to yard and explained. I got handed a whip and told if he does it again, use the whip over his ears. I followed the advice and the pony never reared again. 

Within a few years that pony was FEI and sold for the daughter of International race horse vet. Just because a horse rears doesn't mean it's in pain. 

OP, when I was your age I was competing at 2 star eventing. I understand what pressure is like. But sometimes you have to say no, this isn't right for my horse. 

I posted a thread on here about my difficult youngster and the grief I got was unreal. He's off doing fab at backing yard ATM. I too was told not to follow the professional advice I was given and to have the horse PTS. 

PM me if you wish, if I know of anyone close to you that can give sound advice, I will.


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## Amymay (15 December 2014)

Abuse????


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## Spins (15 December 2014)

Theres a few things that have been said that I really want to address:

Firstly OP, we do have cubbing here, at least every proper hunt does and every hunt I've hunted with has and I've lived up and down the country. From the sounds of 8 people making up the field on a normal day it doesn't strike me that hunt is a popular or well respected one. 

Secondly, I agree shoe heartedly with whats been said regarding lameness and fitness.. find it hard to see how someone with a B test and another pony would be pushing the issue of hunting? Hunt the pony and event the horse.. simple. Throw the horse out until all hoof issues solved, you still have the pony so go off and have fun then bring the other one back in in the spring with everything fixed and on a good work schedule slowly increasing it until he's ready to event.

Thirdly, getting some man to ride him and keep him in a field away from the hunt is a disastrous way to "settle" a horse, made worse by the galloping round. To get a horse hunting, especially one that may be hot to begin with, it is far better to have it up with the rest or even closer to the front and actually hunting rather than holding it back away from the "herd" while they all gallop off. Seems a recipe for disaster to me.

Finally, I've said quite a number of times on here.. I find the stereotyping really offensive and to be honest I do know people who hunt the odd 3 year old purely for the english market. I don't know any Irish horsey person who has bought a young horse hunted as a 3 year old.. so just something else to think about. I wouldn't dream of doing it but I wouldn't be adverse to taking one for a days cubbing to finish off breaking it. Also, as I'm sure there are in England there are good and bad farriers, vets, professionals etc here... Just because I'm Irish doesn't make me unkind/hard on my horse or bad at my job. I've drawn this inference from a number of comments on various threads sorry to hijack this one to highlight it!

OP your 16.. I'm sure if your non-horsey parents have bought you two horses, you have more of a say with what happens with them than your letting on. Please wherever you are get some solid advice from someone not connected to the area/horse/hunt!


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## FestiveFuzz (15 December 2014)

Illusion100 said:



			I'd just like to add something here.

The OP is 17, the abuse she's been given is not on. She's in a situation where professionals and parents are backing her into a corner and now she's subjected to a witch hunt.

I'm Irish and sick to the back teeth of the stereotyping. I'll have my turn, I was younger than OP hacking my young pony out alone. He all of a sudden stopped, refused to go forward and when I pushed him he reared, lost balance and nearly came over. Shaken up I rode back to yard and explained. I got handed a whip and told if he does it again, use the whip over his ears. I followed the advice and the pony never reared again. 

Within a few years that pony was FEI and sold for the daughter of International race horse vet. Just because a horse rears doesn't mean it's in pain. 

OP, when I was your age I was competing at 2 star eventing. I understand what pressure is like. But sometimes you have to say no, this isn't right for my horse. 

I posted a thread on here about my difficult youngster and the grief I got was unreal. He's off doing fab at backing yard ATM. I too was told not to follow the professional advice I was given and to have the horse PTS. 

PM me if you wish, if I know of anyone close to you that can give sound advice, I will.
		
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I have to say I disagree that the OP is getting abuse. Everyone has been more than helpful with the advice given, it's just that OP doesn't seem to want to listen. If they genuinely are in a position where they're not being heard amongst the adults then surely their next step is to ask how they can raise their concerns with their parents in a constructive way, not argue that because their horse is part TB it's hunting fit in a matter of weeks when it's been off work all summer!

Personally I'm of the opinion that horses rear for a reason, be it high spirits, fear or pain. On occasion it can be a learned reaction but in your case and the OP's that doesn't sound like the case. We'll never know whether you hitting your horse on the head when it reared dissuaded it from rearing again or just taught it that you'll cause it pain when it tells you something is wrong. 

As previously mentioned the OP is best off revising their fitness regime and then if they're still keen on hunting next season, trying again then.


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## bakewell (15 December 2014)

I must say the OP has handled criticism and suggestions with maturity and manners in a way seldom seen on forums. It's entirely her perogative as to whether she follows or heeds some or all of it. That's the thing about asking for advice; you can take as much or as little notice as you like.

If you feel offering further advice is pointless, don't offer it. Put the OP on ignore if you feel that strongly.

No one piece of advice is applicable to all situations. If you've never ridden a horse with a schooling aim in mind and part way through thought actually, this approach is totally counterproductive I need to find an alternate way to make this the preferable behaviour; then you've either had extremely compliant horses or aren't as sensitive and humane a rider as was hoped.

Whether I do or do not agree with the OP has little relevance. I do know that an argumentative or overly aggressive/ belittling approach rarely encourages others to see your point of view as they find you offensive (in the offended sense).


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## OWLIE185 (15 December 2014)

I was always tought to do at least 6 weeks of road fitness work by hacking the horse for 3 hours per day before taking a horse hunting which included trotting the horse up hills on the roads etc.
The work you have done will not have fattened your horse up enough to go hunting. 
Your horse has been off work for some time and you need to get your horse back both physically and mentally in to a gentle routine of work before asking him to do anything more so as to avoid any further injuries.
I would strongly suggest that this horse is not hunted at all for at least another year until it's hooves and any other issues are sorted out and the horse is well back in to regular daily ridden work including three hours hacking per day.
If the horse does have any more lameness or unsoundness problems then it needs to be referred to a specialist equine clinic hospital for full investigations to diagnose exactly where the problem is.
Taking this horse hunting again is asking for problems as not only can the horse, suffer a serious injury but so can the rider and anyone else around it.
If you seriously are going to allow this horse to go hunting then make quite sure that you have third party public liability insurance to no less than £10,000,000 (Ten million Pounds) and that the rider also is fully insured.


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## Spins (15 December 2014)

bakewell said:



			I must say the OP has handled criticism and suggestions with maturity and manners in a way seldom seen on forums. It's entirely her perogative as to whether she follows or heeds some or all of it. That's the thing about asking for advice; you can take as much or as little notice as you like.

If you feel offering further advice is pointless, don't offer it. Put the OP on ignore if you feel that strongly.

No one piece of advice is applicable to all situations. If you've never ridden a horse with a schooling aim in mind and part way through thought actually, this approach is totally counterproductive I need to find an alternate way to make this the preferable behaviour; then you've either had extremely compliant horses or aren't as sensitive and humane a rider as was hoped.

Whether I do or do not agree with the OP has little relevance. I do know that an argumentative or overly aggressive/ belittling approach rarely encourages others to see your point of view as they find you offensive (in the offended sense).
		
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Very well said.


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## Red-1 (15 December 2014)

OP, I have been following this thread, and have some observations. 

Firstly about the rearing. It would not be so unusual for a horse to be so naughty either when first hunted (or the second time!), or after a break. It does sound like you were not the person to sort the problem out, as you have recognised yourself. I think it is a fair idea to get someone experienced to take the horse hunting, but think the person you used so far may not be the right person. This would be because 1. he took an unfit horse hunting, and 2. his actions would not IMO be likely to help matters (keeping horse away, galloping round).

I would also like to have everything checked to make sure it is not pain related as far as you can.

Next is the fitness. I really do not think your horse was fit enough, and when horses have been out of or in light work they are more likely to be naughty as well as injure themselves. I would do a program of fitness, and then have the horse to a good rider/trainer for a week or two so they can get used to him before hunting.

I do also agree with other posters that some horses are not cut out for hunting. If the horse is good in all other ways, and is sound then you could sell and buy something more suitable. I would be honest with buyers. Or, you could decide that if the horse is sound and will do all other things you want you may decide to just do other things.

Lastly with other people. I could write a whole book on that. I would trust your gut feeling. I would discuss it with people who you trust, so you can shape your thoughts. I would not be pushed into doing stuff you do not think is right. That is sometimes not comfortable, but neither is ignoring what you know to be true. 

As to your original question, yes, I do think that rearers can be helped, my horse had a bad rep before I bought him, with top riders too. He prefers a mummy I think to a professional approach, but is doing BD, BE, BS, Le TRec and whatever else I ask of him....except.....hunting! He is a bit barking mad when he just hears hounds in the village, and although I would have liked a horse to hunt then Jay is not that horse, so we don't do that. In return he has not reared for a long time, and I feel safe on him. 

If your horses starts to rear in other situations then I would say he is not your ideal partner. You need to feel safe, you can't have much fun if you do not feel safe, and having fun is the reason you have a horse.


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## Arizahn (15 December 2014)

OWLIE185 said:



			I was always tought to do at least 6 weeks of road fitness work by hacking the horse for 3 hours per day before taking a horse hunting which included trotting the horse up hills on the roads etc.
The work you have done will not have fattened your horse up enough to go hunting. 
Your horse has been off work for some time and you need to get your horse back both physically and mentally in to a gentle routine of work before asking him to do anything more so as to avoid any further injuries.
I would strongly suggest that this horse is not hunted at all for at least another year until it's hooves and any other issues are sorted out and the horse is well back in to regular daily ridden work including three hours hacking per day.
If the horse does have any more lameness or unsoundness problems then it needs to be referred to a specialist equine clinic hospital for full investigations to diagnose exactly where the problem is.
Taking this horse hunting again is asking for problems as not only can the horse, suffer a serious injury but so can the rider and anyone else around it.
If you seriously are going to allow this horse to go hunting then make quite sure that you have third party public liability insurance to no less than £10,000,000 (Ten million Pounds) and that the rider also is fully insured.
		
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I feel this is very good advice regarding fittening  

By this point though, given that the horse has been shown to behave dangerously whilst hunting, would the insurance companies even pay out in the event of an accident? I would have serious concerns that they might regard what has happened as a reason to refuse to do so. Something again for the OP's parents to consider as a sixteen year old isn't likely to be the one held to account for this aspect.


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## Illusion100 (15 December 2014)

FestiveFuzz said:



			Personally I'm of the opinion that horses rear for a reason, be it high spirits, fear or pain. On occasion it can be a learned reaction but in your case and the OP's that doesn't sound like the case. We'll never know whether you hitting your horse on the head when it reared dissuaded it from rearing again or just taught it that you'll cause it pain when it tells you something
		
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Regardless, it never reared again, could not have asked for a better result. The pony had an extremely successful eventing career, was assessed on the behalf of a buyer by an International rider and purchased by a vet. They failed to pick up on any niggling medical issue the pony was too scared to tell me.


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## Illusion100 (15 December 2014)

bakewell said:



			I must say the OP has handled criticism and suggestions with maturity and manners in a way seldom seen on forums. It's entirely her perogative as to whether she follows or heeds some or all of it. That's the thing about asking for advice; you can take as much or as little notice as you like.

If you feel offering further advice is pointless, don't offer it. Put the OP on ignore if you feel that strongly.

Whether I do or do not agree with the OP has little relevance. I do know that an argumentative or overly aggressive/ belittling approach rarely encourages others to see your point of view as they find you offensive (in the offended sense).
		
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Fully agree.


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## Cortez (15 December 2014)

I think this thread is a very good example of the fundamental differences between the way things are done in the UK and the way they are done in other places. The scenarios described by the OP would be quite familiar to anyone who has lived in the Irish horse world, even if they would not do the same themselves. The OP is only 16 and has acted on the advice she has been given by farriers and vets, there is no need to be quite so snide and belittling no matter how much you believe you are "right".


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## L&M (15 December 2014)

Hear hear Cortez.

I wouldn't want to be the child of some of the posters on here, naming no names.


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## showpony (15 December 2014)

Hi Op, hunting blew my horses brains two years ago.. She acted like a lunatic, bucking, spinning, threatening to go up, barging through the hunt to get to the front.. Terrified the life out of me.. I'd to run her into a hedge to stop her before calling it a day. I should never have taken her out, I hadn't the prep done. So what we did was get her out in open spaces with other horses.. Mixing paces up, and building that up to 3 hours ride outs with a much bigger pack! Last year and this year she went hunting again with a friend and was much much better as the ground work had been put in..  So maybe look at doing lots of work in open spaces before hunting again if you really want to give it another bash.


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## Fun Times (15 December 2014)

I genuinely don't mean this to be inflammatory but this is an honest question following Cortez's recent post. Would it be common in Ireland for a horse to be hunted two weeks after coming back into work following a long rest period? If so, apologies OP for suggesting a more prolonged fitness regime, if that isn't the norm in your neck of the woods I can  quite see why you have done what you did.


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## Cortez (15 December 2014)

Fun Times said:



			I genuinely don't mean this to be inflammatory but this is an honest question following Cortez's recent post. Would it be common in Ireland for a horse to be hunted two weeks after coming back into work following a long rest period? If so, apologies OP for suggesting a more prolonged fitness regime, if that isn't the norm in your neck of the woods I can  quite see why you have done what you did.
		
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I have known horses to be backed one day and hunted the next; would I recommend this? No, of course not, but in actual fact young or unfit horses are often taken out for an hour or so, or perhaps just to the first draw. Yes, sometimes idiots do take young or unfit horses out all day, run the legs off them and generally ask too much. They also fling young horses over jumps with little or no preparation, no flat work other than lolloping around a field and no fittening work. We are very much less precious about horses over here, but you lot seem to like them anyway.

I am not a hunting person, or even a jumping person, and I don't have any Irish horses at the moment as they don't fit my present requirements, but this is how many horses are managed here, and with evident success as we don't seem to have half the problems I read about on this forum 

I don't feel that the OP deserves the level of vituperation she has garnered; it may not be what the average English person would do, but it's not unreasonable to take a sound horse out for a bit of hunting IF the OP is sensible enough to take the horse home when it has done enough (which of course she didn't get the chance to do).


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## Fun Times (15 December 2014)

Cortez said:



			I have known horses to be backed one day and hunted the next; would I recommend this? No, of course not, but in actual fact young or unfit horses are often taken out for an hour or so, or perhaps just to the first draw. Yes, sometimes idiots do take young or unfit horses out all day, run the legs off them and generally ask too much. They also fling young horses over jumps with little or no preparation, no flat work other than lolloping around a field and no fittening work. We are very much less precious about horses over here, but you lot seem to like them anyway.....................I am not a hunting person, or even a jumping person, and I don't have any Irish horses at the moment as they don't fit my present requirements, but this is how many horses are managed here, and with evident success as we don't seem to have half the problems I read about on this forum 

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Thanks Cortez, its really interesting to understand how things are approached differently there. And yep, I quite agree that we do seem to have a thing for importing Irish horses over here!


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## cptrayes (15 December 2014)

Cortez said:



			I have known horses to be backed one day and hunted the next; would I recommend this? No, of course not, but in actual fact young or unfit horses are often taken out for an hour or so, or perhaps just to the first draw. Yes, sometimes idiots do take young or unfit horses out all day, run the legs off them and generally ask too much. They also fling young horses over jumps with little or no preparation, no flat work other than lolloping around a field and no fittening work. We are very much less precious about horses over here, but you lot seem to like them anyway.....................I am not a hunting person, or even a jumping person, and I don't have any Irish horses at the moment as they don't fit my present requirements, but this is how many horses are managed here, and with evident success as wRe don't seem to have half the problems I read about on this forum 

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Well I'm glad to have the accusation that I was racist so comprehensively disproved by an Irish person Cortez  

Is it also the case that one of the reasons that you have less trouble with your horses that, for example in the case of the advice being given to this young person, some people would actually just shoot the horse rather than try and sort it out?  Including chucking a lame horse in the field for six months and then shooting it if it's still unsound?

This isn't a criticism in any way. I think it's actually got a lot to recommend it as an approach.  I currently own two of the products of it, both cracking horses


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## Cortez (15 December 2014)

cptrayes said:



			Well I'm glad to have the accusation that I was racist so comprehensively disproved by an Irish person Cortez  

Is it also the case that one of the reasons that you have less trouble with your horses that, for example in the case of the advice being given to this young person, some people would actually just shoot the horse rather than try and sort it out?  Including chucking a lame horse in the field for six months and then shooting it if it's still unsound?

This isn't a criticism in any way. I think it's actually got a lot to recommend it as an approach.  I currently own two of the products of it, both cracking horses 

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Yes, I'd say that more unsound horses are simply turned away or shot than seems to be the case in UK. And yes, I agree with you that it is often a better idea than spending fortunes "investigating". There's a lot less fluff over here 

BTW, it isn't racist if we say it about ourselves. Still is if you do 'tho


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## NellRosk (15 December 2014)

bakewell said:



			I must say the OP has handled criticism and suggestions with maturity and manners in a way seldom seen on forums. It's entirely her perogative as to whether she follows or heeds some or all of it. That's the thing about asking for advice; you can take as much or as little notice as you like.

If you feel offering further advice is pointless, don't offer it. Put the OP on ignore if you feel that strongly.

No one piece of advice is applicable to all situations. If you've never ridden a horse with a schooling aim in mind and part way through thought actually, this approach is totally counterproductive I need to find an alternate way to make this the preferable behaviour; then you've either had extremely compliant horses or aren't as sensitive and humane a rider as was hoped.

Whether I do or do not agree with the OP has little relevance. I do know that an argumentative or overly aggressive/ belittling approach rarely encourages others to see your point of view as they find you offensive (in the offended sense).
		
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I fully agree with this and do have a certain amount of sympathy for the OP, I know how hard it is to reject advice when you're young and surrounded by people telling you what to do.


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## Arizahn (15 December 2014)

Fun Times said:



			I genuinely don't mean this to be inflammatory but this is an honest question following Cortez's recent post. Would it be common in Ireland for a horse to be hunted two weeks after coming back into work following a long rest period? If so, apologies OP for suggesting a more prolonged fitness regime, if that isn't the norm in your neck of the woods I can  quite see why you have done what you did.
		
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I'm Irish. No child of mine would be sent hunting on an untried horse, and most definitely not on one that was not fully sound and could therefore react dangerously through pain - I wouldn't risk the child, the horse, or anyone else. And I'd be spitting feathers at anyone who encouraged the notion. It's dangerous, and unfair to all parties involved.

As someone else said, hunt the pony and turn the horse away until the feet are fully sorted. Then decide what to do with him in the long term. He's done alright at other ridden work. With time and care and enough preparation he might be fine for hunting. Equally he may turn out to be an utter money pit. But rushing the process isn't going to help matters. 

Now if the OP and/or their parents don't want to do this that is their prerogative. They may very well feel that the horse would be better retired or PTS. They may even know someone who would happily take him on. But regarding selling they'll get a better price once winter is over anyhow, likewise people will be more likely to buy the horse when his issues have been fully resolved. Very few people want to buy a vet bill going into the worse end of winter, and that's not unique to Ireland.


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## Illusion100 (16 December 2014)

Cortez said:



			BTW, it isn't racist if we say it about ourselves. Still is if you do 'tho 

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Spot on! 

If I was uncouth, I could provide sweeping statements regarding 'English' management of horses. Apparently the Irish have more manners.


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## Pennythetank (16 December 2014)

Cortez said:



			Yes, I'd say that more unsound horses are simply turned away or shot than seems to be the case in UK. And yes, I agree with you that it is often a better idea than spending fortunes "investigating". There's a lot less fluff over here 

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Yep, I know a lot of horses that would be turned away rather than letting the vet spend all the owners money on treating something that will right itself.I actually know a few horses who had over a few months of 'Doctor Green' and then returned to full work sounder than a pound. And it is a fair point about shooting horses. Most people I know would rather shoot a dangerous horse i.e. a rearer(full blown constant rears not just an ity bity napping type rear) rather than let the vet spend 1-2 grand finding out that the horse will need to be put down anyway.
 Its a different mentality and one that works for most of us. I know kids who when asked if their pony might be for sale in the future have sold the animal out from underneath them in the middle of a hunting field or during a ode. You can always get another horse but you never know if the one you just sold for 6k might have dropped dead the next time you rode it. I (and most kids/teens I know around my part of the country) have been taught from a young age that its better to be safe with cash in the bank rather than hope your horse will be worth 1-2k extra next season and end up with a)a broken horse and b)no way to buy a new one!

Op if your horse is still lame either get the vet (not your farrier!) to have another look at it or turn him away until spring. Also don't bother hunting him this season, find a hunt with a cubbing season and join them until your horse settles around the hounds. Also bring a nanny (aka a calm older horse) that your horse knows with you. Good luck and I hope it works out ok for you.


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## gunnergundog (16 December 2014)

EquiEquestrian556 said:



			Very well put FT. 

OP, for your horse's sake, and the fact that you asked for advice on here, please listen to what people are suggesting/ advising on here. Like you, we only want the best for Copper, and many of us (including me) don't believe that Copper should even be cantering yet after the amount of time he has had off work. 

I'm a very experienced hunter, and despite the fact that my mare is very fit generally, in the sense that she could be off for a month, just mooching in a field, and still jump a 1m course without puffing or sweating much, doesn't mean she should, just because she can. 

Hunters must be very fit, and fitness doesn't just mean galloping 10 miles without getting tired, it's how long it takes for them to recover, and getting their breath back. My mare is currently hunting fit, and despite being 13.3hh, could probably gallop for 10 miles, but she would be running off adrenaline, not fitness.

For the sake of Copper, please get someone experienced other than your farrier & vet, and listen to what people are saying on this thread.
		
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You are 13??!!  Going on 30 plus in my book!    That is meant to be a compliment and in no way intended to be patronising.


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## EquiEquestrian556 (16 December 2014)

gunnergundog said:



			You are 13??!!  Going on 30 plus in my book!    That is meant to be a compliment and in no way intended to be patronising.
		
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Thank you very much hehe!


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## Aoibhinn (24 December 2014)

Thank you everyone that has offered advice. 

So I have started a new approach with the horse now. I am riding him gently on the roads, about 4/5 miles every second day, and riding him in the arena the other days. He is perfectly sound thankfully. 

I don't think I will try and hunt him again this season, maybe towards March if he is going well for me. Just to clarify, I saw somebody say that our hunt must be very small for a reason, it is just a very local hunt. It is out basically in the middle of nowhere so that is why there are so few horses out. 

In reply to the suggestion that I turn the horse away and hunt the pony, I completely forgot to mention the reason I am trying to not hunt the pony. I moved from the pony to a different horse last season and my sister moved from her 13.2 to my pony who is 14.2. While this has been going on she has been back hunting her 13.2 so I could take my old pony out. Unfortunately, the small lad pulls like a train and she hates taking him out. I was trying to give the bigger pony back to her so she could enjoy the season. 

Also, it would be quite common here to hunt much younger horses, a lot of them are then sent over to England which seems to be working out quite well over there I would believe?  the 14.2 pony I have was hunted since she was a 2 year old and it hasn't done her any harm. She would never dream of stopping at any type of fence or drain and she absoloutely loves cross country. It probably has different effects on all horses but it seemed to work on her! 

Aswell as this, somebody mentioned how I said the horse was not sound and then contradicted myself and said he was 110% sound. He was around 95% sound in October when I began working him. Then come the end of November he had come perfect. At the moment, he is completely sound much to my relief. 

Once again, thank you to everyone that contributed. It seems to have caused quite a stir and I'm sorry to anyone that may have become angry over it!


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## EquiEquestrian556 (24 December 2014)

Aoibhinn said:



			Thank you everyone that has offered advice. 

So I have started a new approach with the horse now. I am riding him gently on the roads, about 4/5 miles every second day, and riding him in the arena the other days. He is perfectly sound thankfully. 

I don't think I will try and hunt him again this season, maybe towards March if he is going well for me. Just to clarify, I saw somebody say that our hunt must be very small for a reason, it is just a very local hunt. It is out basically in the middle of nowhere so that is why there are so few horses out. 

In reply to the suggestion that I turn the horse away and hunt the pony, I completely forgot to mention the reason I am trying to not hunt the pony. I moved from the pony to a different horse last season and my sister moved from her 13.2 to my pony who is 14.2. While this has been going on she has been back hunting her 13.2 so I could take my old pony out. Unfortunately, the small lad pulls like a train and she hates taking him out. I was trying to give the bigger pony back to her so she could enjoy the season. 

Also, it would be quite common here to hunt much younger horses, a lot of them are then sent over to England which seems to be working out quite well over there I would believe?  the 14.2 pony I have was hunted since she was a 2 year old and it hasn't done her any harm. She would never dream of stopping at any type of fence or drain and she absoloutely loves cross country. It probably has different effects on all horses but it seemed to work on her! 

Aswell as this, somebody mentioned how I said the horse was not sound and then contradicted myself and said he was 110% sound. He was around 95% sound in October when I began working him. Then come the end of November he had come perfect. At the moment, he is completely sound much to my relief. 

Once again, thank you to everyone that contributed. It seems to have caused quite a stir and I'm sorry to anyone that may have become angry over it!
		
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Glad it's going well now OP. Have lots of fun with Copper!


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## Aoibhinn (24 December 2014)

Thank you EE! Hopefully I will  quick question, can somebody tell me what OP stands for? Can't figure it out at all!


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## EquiEquestrian556 (24 December 2014)

Aoibhinn said:



			Thank you EE! Hopefully I will  quick question, can somebody tell me what OP stands for? Can't figure it out at all!
		
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You're welcome!  It stands for Original Poster  

P.S. If you ever have time, post a photo of him, I'd love to see him.


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## Aoibhinn (24 December 2014)

Ah thank you, that makes sense! I can't figure out how to post a picture unfortunately  he is a beautiful boy, because I'm not biased at all right?


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## Goldenstar (24 December 2014)

If I where you I would be proceeding thinking perhaps something hurts and be trying to find out what.
BUT ... Exactly this sort of behaviour is seen in horses who find it hard to cope with hunting so perhaps it's not going to be his thing .


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## unicornystar (24 December 2014)

He's got thoroughbred in him, never hunted before.....not really been doing much...astounded, why do you think this behaviour is abnormal?  It's not wanted on the hunting field for sure as he is a liability to others, however, it sounds like you are more the problem and your farrier thinking that he's not going to hot up and his brain pop over by going hunting when he has done so little and never done hunting before?!

This has GOT to be a wind up....?  I hunted by tb once...he had been before! never again!  I wont hunt the sane draught I have, his head would fall off and he is in regular work...it just sounds like one pent up tb x to be honest..


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## only_me (24 December 2014)

Aoibhinn said:



			I bought him as an all rounder. The job he's supposed to do is hunter trial in the spring & autumn, pony club eventing, show jumping etc. during the summer and then the plan was to be able to hunt him for the winter.
		
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Just because he dosent hunt does not mean that he can't do everything else!! 
I'm in NI and the standard of hunts vary.
My horse when I took him on a hunt ride (not even a hunt!) as a 4 year old he absolutely loved it but started to jump blind ie. Not actually looking at the fence before jumping. Not a problem on a experienced horse but on a 4 year old not the safest & lots of wire that is jumped (normal for hunting here) so we went home.
I haven't taken him hunting again although he would be a fantastic masters or whips horse as he would go all day and jump what ever is put infront of him. I know that as I know my horse. He wouldn't suit being held at the back of the field as that would frustrate him and cause him to misbehave. 

But even though I don't hunt him (had him 4 years) he events, dressage, hunt trials, sj, hacking etc. all like a saint and I would be happy to lend him for other riders to use. So just because your horse dosen't hunt Dosen't meant he can't do everything else!!

Plus, I can't believe you have your B test and dont realise the amount of fittening you need for hunting - I examine to C+ at pc and even at that level you need to know how to fitten a horse, or at least the basic principles. And honestly, the fact that you think a horse is fit for hunting after 2 weeks work is embarrassing- I wouldn't even take my horse to a dressage comp after one 2 weeks work!! 

Please take some advice on board - your horse probably reared as he was over excited, exhausted but running on adrenaline and went into overdrive. Don't take him hunting again.

Just to add - I know some people take their horses hunting for the first time in ireland when they are unfit as the theory is that they will settle quicker and tire faster so accept the environment. This can work for some  but usually people don't stay out all day, but it doesn't work for all horses - like yours OP


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## Aoibhinn (24 December 2014)

Only me, just to clarify that I am extremely aware of how long it takes to get a horse fit. 
He was taken hunting after only two weeks of hard work as your last point states, an unfit horse is more likely to be quieter and more settled. I did not stay out on him long, only about an hour and a half, and we did not do any excessive galloping or jumping for that hour and a half, so the rearing was not down to exhaustion.


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## EquiEquestrian556 (24 December 2014)

Aoibhinn said:



			Ah thank you, that makes sense! I can't figure out how to post a picture unfortunately  he is a beautiful boy, because I'm not biased at all right? 

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You can put a photo on your HHO homepage, on a photo album


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## only_me (24 December 2014)

Aoibhinn said:



			Only me, just to clarify that I am extremely aware of how long it takes to get a horse fit. 
He was taken hunting after only two weeks of hard work as your last point states, an unfit horse is more likely to be quieter and more settled. I did not stay out on him long, only about an hour and a half, and we did not do any excessive galloping or jumping for that hour and a half, so the rearing was not down to exhaustion.
		
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But you keep talking about how fit your horse is after 2 weeks work - which is impossible if you know about how to fitten a horse. What was the hard work you were doing with him?

I don't think you realise just how physically and mentally tiring it is for a horse at their first hunt - so exhaustion and over excitement after hour and half is entirely possible, even for other horses that have been fittnend correctly. 

Taking an unfit horse out hunting for an hour can be risky for a horse with NO lameness issues - however your horse has been off all summer with lameness and poor feet with only 2 weeks work under his belt and then to go hunting - utter maddness!! That was NEVER going to work - setting your poor horse up for a fail. Also one session of rearing would not concern me at a first hunt, and I woud not be looking get rid as you say. Instead I would probably give horse more time and work at home and do some hunter trials in April.

 Why not just leave it this season and hunt next winter?!


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## EquiEquestrian556 (24 December 2014)

only_me said:



			Why not just leave it this season and hunt next winter?!
		
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That's what OP said she'd do


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