# Schmallenberg virus - are you affected?



## Ranyhyn (27 February 2012)

After reading and hearing about this on the news, I am pretty concerned about our future lambs.  

For those who haven't seen it, here's a quick link: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-17176542

And for those who don't want to read the link it's a virus, supposedly spread by European midges that affects lambs, deformity or being born dead or dying shortly after.

I have seen that it's slowly creeping across the map, the nearest to us (S Wales) being Glouc and Hereford   I feel so bad for those who are suffering and given that we don't even know if this is dangerous to humans yet, it's a worrying time!


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## jrp204 (27 February 2012)

We have been lucky so far, only got 6 left to lamb and the other 30 ewes have been unaffected. The trouble is its not notifiable, we have heard of a couple of farms that have had late abortions and very difficult lambings (more so than usual with odd sounding lambs), farms are not going to voluntarily notify the vets they will just chuck the lambs and hope for the best. It is very difficult to moniter the spread unless everyone is honest. We have had 1 case in cornwall so far, hope it stays that way. 
The pedigree inlamb ewe trade is going to take a hit until there is a blood test to show for immunity, it has been shown that once infected the sheep will have a strong immunity, whether this is passed onto the lambs is unknown as yet, hopefully it is.


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## varkie (27 February 2012)

Does this have any implications other than birth issues & defects?  Are animals infected for life once they have it?  Or can they overcome it?  Will it affect all future births?


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## Rosehip (27 February 2012)

All very interesting questions Varkie, I'll ask my dad when he comes in. 
We have (touch wood - so far) not been affected. We have had a few early lambers, but the majority of ours will be lambing out to the grass in April/May. 
The problem I have with the notification of Schmallenberg is that how do we - as laymen - know for sure that our flock is affected? 
Everyone involved with sheep will know that ewes will abort, but its not always (or rather not usually!) Enzootic Abortion, lambs will die suddenly, but its not always Pulpy Kidney or Watery Mouth etc etc etc, so how do we know that the strange lamb just born is as a result of Schmallenberg, or is just "a wrong'un" ?

We had a ewe lamb yesterday, one tiny little ratty lamb who is now gaining strength and going on well, and a rotten manking mess of a dead lamb.... who's to say that this is or isnt the virus? Unless of course we PM every lamb we lose, which isnt really practical or financially viable .

It is a worry though isnt it, especially for those of us who are lambing later and are further north of the virus. My heart goes out to those who have lost lambs though, its awful!

As an aside, the Countryfile report lastnight was a touch misleading I felt. The 2 lambs shown as having 'mild Schmallenberg' were just slightly parrot mouthed and slightly knock kneed...that isnt a notifiable deformity, just a slight 'wonk'! (Usually - but not always - caused by line breeding getting a bit to close) If we put the cat amongst the pigeons and encourage people to notify vets of every slight birth defect then not only will the vets be overwhelmed, farmers will go bankrupt from the cost of the vets visits! 

Sorry, Ive rambled! Hope I make at least a bit of sense!! x


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## jrp204 (27 February 2012)

varkie said:



			Does this have any implications other than birth issues & defects?  Are animals infected for life once they have it?  Or can they overcome it?  Will it affect all future births?
		
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It appears once infected (infectious period appears to be 3-6 days) the animal has a strong immunity to the virus, noone knows if immunity  is transferred to subsequent pregnancies. Hopefully they will develop a blood test that will show if an animal is immune or not. It seems the main problem is the animal becoming infected within the first month or so of the pregnancy, it seems if they become infected prior to the ram being put in there isn't a problem as they have formed an immunity.
There is NO health risk to the public.


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## jrp204 (27 February 2012)

"We had a ewe lamb yesterday, one tiny little ratty lamb who is now gaining strength and going on well, and a rotten manking mess of a dead lamb.... who's to say that this is or isnt the virus? Unless of course we PM every lamb we lose, which isnt really practical or financially viable ."

Testing of dead lambs for the virus is free. Maybe at the moment if you have any doubt that it may be the virus you should test, ignoring the problem will not help in keeping track of infected areas. Its a shame its not notifiable.


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## Rosehip (27 February 2012)

Thanks for that Jrp204, Its good to know that the testing is free. 
We are confident that the dead lamb yesterday isnt the virus, but will keep in mind for future ref. I agree, perhaps if it were notifiable then we would be able to track its progress and try to contain the problem. x


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## Sparkly Snowdrop (27 February 2012)

We have another month until we start lambing and I agree that it is all very worrying. I also agree that it will be hard to know whether a lamb born with a birth defect is caused by this or just one of those things that we all get from time to time.


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## mon (27 February 2012)

We have lambed around 150 with thankfully no more problems than usual one lamb of a treble was one set of legs and a body, no head but that was six weeks ago before new of this virus but have 350 left to lamb and no way of knowing just praying be ok. In Bedford area.


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## Rosehip (27 February 2012)

Grrr, How do you multi-quote??!!! Argh!!




			We have another month until we start lambing and I agree that it is all very worrying. I also agree that it will be hard to know whether a lamb born with a birth defect is caused by this or just one of those things that we all get from time to time.
		
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			We have lambed around 150 with thankfully no more problems than usual one lamb of a treble was one set of legs and a body, no head but that was six weeks ago before new of this virus but have 350 left to lamb and no way of knowing just praying be ok. In Bedford area.
		
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Mon & Snowdrop, thats just the thing Im talking about. 
When you lamb any number of ewes, inevitably there will be non viable lambs, lambs that die in-utero, lambs that are deformed etc. 
If every farmer in the country sends every non-viable lamb born - deformed or not - to be tested (which is more likely with the news that testing is FOC) then the agency doing the testing is going to be swamped, and the results of the tests will take longer to come through because of the backlog. Has the government/DEFRA got a plan in place for this? 
Although it is a worrying time, unless farmers are finding that they are having higher than average death/deformity rates then perhaps the wisest course of action is to carry on as normal, rather than over-analyse each and every death?
xx


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## jrp204 (27 February 2012)

I agree you will always get a % of lambs that aren't viable but i think this is different. It appears the malformation is quite distinct, i guess it would be harder to diagnose if the ewe has aborted as you will get natural returns but i suppose if you start having more, later abortions this is when alarm bells should start ringing.
We only have a small flock (50 ewes, 42 Texel,8  texel X) i suppose every year we will get 1, maybe 2 unviable (mummified or having died prior to lambing starting) we will also inevitably lose 4 or 5 to malpresentation or v. large lambs. I think we would soon start to notice the malformation that is presented with the virus and it would be then that i would send off the body for testing. Apparently the malformation can also cause major problems when lambing the ewe and i wonder how many people will get the vet out for a c. sec or just shoot the ewe. I think in the pedigree world c secs are more likely due to the value of the ewe but in a commercial flock it would prove too expensive.
The best case scenario is that many flocks were infected during last summer and the ones presenting malformed lambs were caught by late midges, all these will now be immune. Without blood testing it is impossible to know the extent of the problem and while it stays off the 'notifiable' list we won't know how big the problem actually is.
The other reason for having lambs tested is, if and when a vaccine/blood testing becomes available those that have had positive diagnosis will get first shout at it.


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## Ranyhyn (27 February 2012)

I wonder if it has anything to do with our unseasonably warm weather last year, we still had midges in Oct/Nov time!!


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## Ruddyreindeer (27 February 2012)

Did they not say on 'Countryfile' that it will also affect calves ?


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## Kiribati_uk (27 February 2012)

Ruddyreindeer said:



			Did they not say on 'Countryfile' that it will also affect calves ?
		
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Yea all ruminants are affected, but seems more common in sheep/goats, than cattle.
we had our pedigree flock lamb early Jan and they were all ok, except my little pet who was born with bent neck and legs BUT came straight in a week so am not too concerned plus her brother was fine, think it was not enough room in ewe as they are both huge, so the ewe lamb just got squished(i hope), 
the main flock (350 NCMs and Suffolk x)start on 1st march so we will wait and see, FINGERS CROSSED!!
It would be helpful if the was a  some definitive advice about it its all very confusing, but the main thing which needs to be said IT WONT HARM PEOPLE!!


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## Alec Swan (27 February 2012)

I was on the Countryfile programme,  and my vet was also there,  and he was on Radio 2 this morning,  with Jeremy Vine.

I'm just wondering how many different ways there are for us to say "Don't know",  because we don't.  

It worries me a little that this awful virus,  has been named after a town,  and that in reality,  is all that we know about it.  Being a virus,  it's felt that affected ewes this year,  will carry a future immunity,  as they do to all other aborting agents,  and though this is different from Enzo or Toxo,  the immunity build up,  should be the same.

We're only lambing 90 ewes this year,  having bought in 300 ewe lambs last year,  and so we're told,  the danger period is when a ewe is infected _during the first month,  or so,_  of pregnancy.  So,  presumably,  if our bought in ewe lambs have been infected,  then by the time that they go to the tup this winter,  they should have built up a degree of immunity.

Of course it's a worry,  but I think that rather like Blue Tongue where the threat seems to have evaporated,  by next year,  we should have seen the worst of it.

I'm due to start lambing in a fortnight,  and it will be the shearlings first,  but worryingly,  there are no bags starting to form with any of the ewes.  The mature ewes are starting to look like they're in lamb,  but still not a bag to be seen.  Unusual,  to say the least.  

I've asked others who have been lambing for the last month,  or so,  and they all seem a little reticent.  Not a volunteer amongst them,  which I think is a little irresponsible.

Whilst the Countryfile programme probably wont tell you anything which you don't already know,  it can be seen on BBC i~player,  my vet Toby has put in an awful lot of unpaid research over the last few weeks,  and for those who've yet to see a geriatric shepherd,  your's truly is on display!!

The virus?  I haven't the faintest idea,  but as you progress through lambing,  Id be really grateful if you could keep us all abreast of your events.  

Would you think it of sufficient interest,  if I were to ask of The FC,  that we could have a sticky,  until say the end of May?  Just a thought.

Good luck everyone,  I love lambing,  but worry about this year.

Alec.


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## Kiribati_uk (27 February 2012)

Brill idea about sticky Alec.
After watching the news it seems my pet lamb could of had schmallenberg, lady on there said she had twins one with and one without?!!
But do lambs survive it or does it kill them?? this lamb is 35kg and 8weeks old so hasnt been stunted, and is now pefectly normal apart from funny ears, they arent growing - Look like they have been banged and gone all nobbly. 
The vets dont seem to be interested as she is alive.


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## Rosehip (27 February 2012)

Alec, which one of the chaps were you? The 1st one in the shed, or the other chap out in the catching pen? 
Kiribati_uk - I think what you have with your pet is 'Rick Neck', they have long, tight necks, can have a twist and often have a knock knee'd look or stiffness to their bodies. Especially as the lamb has straightened now. We had one last year - teabag - he was extreamly twisted and stiff at birth, with a strange floppiness to his body but complete rigidity in his neck. He grew up to be a smashing lamb, abet a little odd looking! Giant ears that would be better on a rabbit, and set quite far back on his head, and still a very long and not very mobile neck, but perfectly fine for what we do - meat trade - I called him 'Dino Boy' as he had the look of those long necked dinosaurs!  

Alec, good idea about the sticky, at least then we would be able to track the virus' progress over the country. Im not supprised at the reticence you have observed though, farmers are a pretty secretive lot!!!  

Jrp204 - is there anywhere on line yet that we can see not only a picture of a Schmallenberg lamb, but a video of how the limbs are restricted and how they feel to the handler - ie, are they rigid/floppy, do they feel unformed internally like an aborted lamb or are they in a sort of permanent rigor? The ewes, when lambing them do they feel normal on entry? Do they have a ringwomb feel, dry, is there a smell? 
The more informed we are, the better we will all be to recognise the virus. 

I think in the pedigree breeders will absolutely go for C.Sections, as the ewes are sometimes worth thousands, the more mainstream breeders like us will try everything we can,  but c.sec's are absolutely non financially viable. Have any of the farmers faced with lambing a ewe with a Schmallenberg lamb tried resection of the body? If the presentation of the body prevents normal vaginal birth, then taking the lamb apart inside the ewe could well be a viable option? 

Also, I feel it is really important to point out that Defra hasnt said that it _definately_ wont harm people, just that there is *no evidence* to say it would. 
Germany have already banned imports, how long will it be before the arse end falls out out of the lamb market yet again? It could be the end of some smaller farmers like us.


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## jrp204 (27 February 2012)

As far as i'm aware (after speaking to our vet) the ewes will go through a normal  labour and will feel normal but if you go in to help the lamb may have fused limbs which are solid and can be at right angles, the spine can also be twisted so the head can be effectively facing the wrong way. The lamb may still be alive and are often normal size. The problem comes when trying to lamb the ewe as it isn't always possible to get the lamb through the birth canal. C sectioning the ewe is an option to remove the lamb if lambing it normally will cause too much damage. 
I have done alot of research into the virus and have had a long chat with our vet, who also had a long chat with a vet 'in the know'. Luckily we have had a clear lambing with no signs of this awful virus, only have 6 late ones left to go now and the others are all out on grass and rape now growing quickly. 
I hope you all have a clear lambing.


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## jodie3 (27 February 2012)

I was listening to this discussion on Jeremy Vine on Radio 2 and what they were saying is that the labour is often more complicated because of the malformation of the lamb.  The vet said that if you go in to help the birth you will know instantly that it is Schmallenberg because of the state of the lamb.  They also said that it is quite common to have only one lamb of twins affected and the other one normal.  
They said that the lambs almost always die at birth because of brain defects too.
Listened with interest as it will be my first season lambing this year!


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## Aru (27 February 2012)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jtZ7kDTQWMM&feature=related

Video is in german but from 4.07 on shows images and videos of affected lambs with of the sort of deformaties that Schmallenberg cause's.Not pleasant watching but it shows what to expect very well.

****warning not for the sensitive***


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## Kiribati_uk (27 February 2012)

Rosehip said:



			Kiribati_uk - I think what you have with your pet is 'Rick Neck', they have long, tight necks, can have a twist and often have a knock knee'd look or stiffness to their bodies. Especially as the lamb has straightened now. We had one last year - teabag - he was extreamly twisted and stiff at birth, with a strange floppiness to his body but complete rigidity in his neck. He grew up to be a smashing lamb, abet a little odd looking! Giant ears that would be better on a rabbit, and set quite far back on his head, and still a very long and not very mobile neck, but perfectly fine for what we do - meat trade - I called him 'Dino Boy' as he had the look of those long necked dinosaurs!  
QUOTE]

Yippee thats what the dad and brother was telling me, but the more you here and see the more you think what if!! 
hadn't heard germany had stopped imports.......But they had it last year and werent bothered!!
		
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## SaharaS (27 February 2012)

Awful experiences last year..lost all but one who had to have splints-lost her at 6 days after bottlefeeding.devastating times. very difficult really long labours and no signs as none bagged up till they dropped/were imminent. Vets just said each time, oh you must just be unlucky/ewes old(not)/duff ram every excuse under the sun. Every time i felt i was not being taken seriously. I wanted to test & they simply seemed to laugh/look at me as tho i was neurotic or poor husbandry/bonkers which I can assure you nothing physically more could have been done to give every ewe & lamb the very best chance. I've been beating myself up over this ever since & was astounded to hear there was a farmer not so far away(next farm to where mine had been)who lost 40 lambs(everything)so far worse than my small flock.Vets were the same to him.He was near suicidal. Funny(not haha funny) tho that the field other side of mine was empty -I wanted it for my broodmares but was put off when i heard cattle had repeatedly aborted there without fail every time & always unexplained.Now i wonder if there was a link to the weather..and to this year-last year i can vouch was terrible for midges as i am frequently midge fodder. I think it should be notifiable..tho if it is midge spread, I don't think it will help contain or stop its spread..not all the time the lorries are transporting all over the country as the damage will already have been done.wishing you all the most stress free healthy lambing season...


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## Ranyhyn (28 February 2012)

What is the option if you aren't going to C section your ewe?  Dare I ask, I imagine it has something to do with dismantling before exit..?


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## jrp204 (28 February 2012)

BoolavogueDC said:



			What is the option if you aren't going to C section your ewe?  Dare I ask, I imagine it has something to do with dismantling before exit..?
		
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If you don't want to get the vet out and you are experienced enough to dismantle the lamb i suppose you could but they can still be alive or i assume you shoot the ewe.


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## Ranyhyn (28 February 2012)

Gosh what a sad outlook for those affected.  I feel hugely sorry for those who rely on their flock for income, our farmers are in such dire straits already   we're lucky that we only have 30 to lamb and they are my partners hobby so any losses are just desperately sad.


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## Alec Swan (28 February 2012)

BoolavogueDC said:



			What is the option if you aren't going to C section your ewe?  Dare I ask, I imagine it has something to do with dismantling before exit..?
		
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Assuming that the lamb's alive,  if the front joints are so badly misshapen and fused that a normal exit isn't achievable,  then you push the legs back,  get the head up,  cut the lambs throat,  and remove the head.  You then push the stump back inside.  You then get one leg up,  at a time,  attached to a chord,  put your arm back in and remove the front leg and shoulder with a very sharp knife.  That should allow for the remaining leg to be used,  to pull the lamb out.  If that doesn't work,  then you repeat the process with the second leg,  and then reach further inside,  take the bag legs,  and remove the lamb,  but backwards.  If none of that is an option,  you shoot the ewe.

Too much information?  I apologise,  but that's the reality.  With luck,  those lambs which are so affected,  would probably result in a pre-term birth,  and the smaller the lamb,  the easier the birth,  generally.

Alec.


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## Ranyhyn (28 February 2012)

No, not TMI, thanks Alec.  I knew of a mare once who had to exit her foal the same way, poor thing.  I've not grown up in the farm setting quite so much as he has and knowledge is power, so they say


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## jrp204 (28 February 2012)

Alec Swan said:



			Assuming that the lamb's alive,  if the front joints are so badly misshapen and fused that a normal exit isn't achievable,  then you push the legs back,  get the head up,  cut the lambs throat,  and remove the head.  You then push the stump back inside.  You then get one leg up,  at a time,  attached to a chord,  put your arm back in and remove the front leg and shoulder with a very sharp knife.  That should allow for the remaining leg to be used,  to pull the lamb out.  If that doesn't work,  then you repeat the process with the second leg,  and then reach further inside,  take the bag legs,  and remove the lamb,  but backwards.  If none of that is an option,  you shoot the ewe.

Too much information?  I apologise,  but that's the reality.  With luck,  those lambs which are so affected,  would probably result in a pre-term birth,  and the smaller the lamb,  the easier the birth,  generally.

Alec.
		
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That requires alot of skill, luckily we have never had to it, if it is that bad/big we would prefer to C sec, i would imagine in unskilled hands it would be very easy to rupture/cut the uterus which would kill the ewe. 
I appreciate in a commercial flock it is very hard to justify a c sec, we have a pedigree flock of Texels some of which are quite valuable (to us anyway) so we are prepared to c sec if necessary.


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## Rosehip (28 February 2012)

Very concise information Alec, put much better than I could  Its not something that farmers relish doing, but if it saves the ewe then it has to be done. 

Thanks for the link to the video, it does seem that the lambs are clearly deformed and it would be recognisable to someone used to lambing. As an aside though, the lambs that look as though they are in the research facility or similar (under the lamp, shown to the camera by chap in lab jacket) - it strikes me that often when lambing 2/300 ewes as we do, sometimes we do get one with 'a wobble on' as we call it. Sometimes they come right, other times they dont, but how do we know if its Schmallenberg? Do they all have the parrot mouth? 
Last year we had a few (admittedly from old ewes that perhaps werent in top notch condition) funny lambs, slight wobbles that soon corrected, a ewe had twins that seemed unformed inside (big, watery bellys), a couple of knock knee's lambs that straightened with time, that sort of thing. I wouldnt call that a virus or a medical problem, I would say that we stretched ourselves too thin, and our stock management wasnt quite up to scratch. So our problem, not a medical one. If you know what I mean?

Kiribati_uk - panic not  Sounds very very very much like Rick Neck, and a fairly mild dose, I really wouldnt worry bout your pet  x


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## lizness (28 February 2012)

Looking at the maps of it's spread I am questioning whether there is more in the south because they will probably lamb earlier (therefore wait and see) or whether there would have been less midgies up north. It is interesting to see on Countryfile that they thought it was non-transferable between sheep which can only be a good thing! The parrot mouthed lambs shown I thought could have been non affected as poor breeding as someone else had mentioned. 

Outof interest I thought that midgies had a short lifespan so how do they reckon they float over here. Or is it hereditary in midgies?

Fingers crossed for my OH's 600 or so sheep and my Suffolk due to lamb in a few weeks and for Cattle who they think may be showing infection later.


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## Rosehip (28 February 2012)

Very valid Q Lizness. Is there anyone who can answer that? I suppose the Black Death was spread by flea's, and Maleria is endemic and spread by midges, so perhaps it is an inherited/congenital thing within the midges? 

For Kiribati_uk - this is Teabag as a lamb, just to show you what a ricknecked lamb looks like 













Note the low set ears, long and imobile neck and the slightly vacant expression, bless him!!

Keeping everything crossed for those of us yet to lamb! x


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## Kiribati_uk (28 February 2012)

Thanks Rosehip.....Evie(born NYE)her neck was facing her bum, but we think she was squished in the ewe because her brother is HUGE and she wasn't small.
But with all the uncertainty about this virus it makes you wonder what if and I don;t need any excuse to panic!
The commercials start on thursday only 300, so fingers crossed.
But for people lambing later surely the chance of the ewe being infected with schmallenberg would of decreased because the midges where only about in warm.


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## Alec Swan (28 February 2012)

Rosehip said:



			.......
Last year we had a few (admittedly from old ewes that perhaps werent in top notch condition) funny lambs, slight wobbles that soon corrected, a ewe had twins that seemed unformed inside (big, watery bellys), a couple of knock knee's lambs that straightened with time, that sort of thing. I wouldnt call that a virus or a medical problem, I would say that we stretched ourselves too thin, and our stock management wasnt quite up to scratch. So our problem, not a medical one. If you know what I mean?
.......
		
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How right you are.  Every year we end up with the odd misshapen lamb,  and for what ever reason,  they do seem prone to it,  and as you so rightly say,  are we now to start labelling those lambs as Schmalenbergs?

Your lambs from older ewes?  They're often not quite as we would hope,  and what ever you'd done for the ewes,  the lambs would probably have been just the same.  It's highly unlikely to have been your fault,  and it's why I never lamb broken mouthed ewes,  or those which struggle to keep condition.  

Looking at the pic of Teabag,  we all get the odd lamb like that,  don't we?  You may get him up to killing weight,  with luck!!   Stick him in the freezer!

My vet was asked by the AHVLA for a stricken lamb,  he said that he had one,  they said can you remove the brain,  and it didn't actually have one,  just grey water.  The virus seems to attack it's victims in a variety of different ways.

The only thing which we know about the virus,  for certain,  is its name.

Alec.


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## Ranyhyn (28 February 2012)

Do you think the level of supposition helps?  In that countryfile report seemed to contain a hell of a lot of "thinks".  Do you think it being non notifiable and having no movement restrictions is the right idea now?  Or would it be better to assume worse-case scenario?


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## jrp204 (28 February 2012)

Not sure how movement restrictions would work on the midges.


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## Rosehip (28 February 2012)

He's in a friends freezer as we speak! Lol! He killed out at 45.6kg, so not bad for a scrag end!!  We never have a cade in the freezer, we have to have an anonymous one out of the field! We are the fluffy version of farmers, we even appologise to anything we have to shoot! 









			My vet was asked by the AHVLA for a stricken lamb, he said that he had one, they said can you remove the brain, and it didn't actually have one, just grey water. The virus seems to attack it's victims in a variety of different ways.
		
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How interesting!!! I have a feeling my OH and I will be dissecting any and all bodies! We had a ewe one year who had a stonking lamb and then passed a very odd looking placenta, when I went to bag it up, I noticed what looked like a minute leg inside the membrane, so we cut into it, and found 3 legs, half a head and a sort of triangular bit of body mumified inside the placenta....Absolutely fascinating, I wish we had taken pictures or video'd it!

In an ideal world we wouldnt lamb broken mouthed ewes either, or only minimally broken mouthed, in reality we have ewes out in the field that aught to have been in a kebab several years ago! Dad and OH bought a ewe in tonight that has lambed a smashing set of twins, but has only one quarter (she was fully bagged at tupping though) when I went out to top the lambs up with colostrum I recognised the ewe as an old favorite....when I got in Dad and I worked out that she must be around the 15 year old mark  and looking back, she has lambed a set of twins every year since her shearling year! A cracking ewe and fantastic mother  Conversely we have a dorset ewe out in the field who had a stillborn lamb last year - she mothered an orphan though so we kept her - she had a dead lamb again this year, nothing wrong with it, it was just dead. She is only 3, and a waste of time and money, so will be off to market soon. 

What sort are you lambing down Alec? We have mainly swales and mules, and some charolais, texel and suffolk x. My OH has Herdwicks, they are the most beautiful lambs! x


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## Ranyhyn (28 February 2012)

deleted because I really can't be bothered


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## Rosehip (28 February 2012)

BoolavogueDC said:



			Do you think the level of supposition helps?  In that countryfile report seemed to contain a hell of a lot of "thinks".  Do you think it being non notifiable and having no movement restrictions is the right idea now?  Or would it be better to assume worse-case scenario?
		
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I think if we start going 'Code Red! Code Red' then the whole industry will be thrown into disarray! It was absolutely crucial during the FMD and Blue Tounge outbreaks, but with a viral infection with an incubation/infective period of 3/6 days, spread by midges, to place exclusion zones and movement restrictions on the industry would bring us to our knees!
I think in this instance the government _have_ got it right. 

Ive shocked myself saying a positive thing about DEFRA!! xx


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## Rosehip (28 February 2012)

BoolavogueDC said:



			deleted because I really can't be bothered
		
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??? huh ???


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## Ranyhyn (28 February 2012)

I'd posted that before you'd posted the reply, rosehip.


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## Rosehip (28 February 2012)

Oh I see  Sorry! xx


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## Alec Swan (2 March 2012)

Rosehip said:



			.......
What sort are you lambing down Alec? We have mainly swales and mules, and some charolais, texel and suffolk x. My OH has Herdwicks, they are the most beautiful lambs! x
		
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Mostly pure bred Texels,  a few crossed with Charolais,  a couple of Lleyn cross Texels and my pride and joy,  3 huge triplet sisters out of a Bleu Du Maine.

Over the last few days,  the ewes bags have started to really develop,  and they are growing as I watch them.  They still aren't that bothered about feed,  the shearlings refusing to touch it,  so I think that I'll put them onto some grass which I was saving,  for lambing itself.

Does anyone else have any news?

Alec.


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## Rosehip (2 March 2012)

Sounds as though your ewes are going in the right direction Alec! 
We are finding that our ewes are starting to refuse the hay we are putting out for them, so the grass is definately growing  Lets just hope we dont have a repeat of last summer where we had bog all grass and the ewes needed almost year round supplementary feeding! Our early lambers are all looking like they may pop, with bags like dairy cows, and the later lambers (due to start mid April) are springing well too. Karen (my OH) is watching one of her herdwicks like a hawk as she was scanned as early, so should be sprogging any day now!

Ive got to say, I dont like charolais, but the x bred ewes we have are good mums, nice and milky and produce decent lambs. We have used Texel and Charolais tups for the most part on the commercial ewes, and then we have a smashing homebred Berrichon du cher tup that we use on the 1st time and older ewes as hes a super easy lamber, and the lambs are super bright. Karen has her 2 Herdwick tups, and our pride and joy Cracker, who is pedigree Texel x Pedigree Suffolk and a real lump of a boy, his lambs kill out awesomely!

I havent heard anymore on the virus, have you? I was talking to a friend who has a few sheep as pets last night, and was saying to him, what is there to say that the odd 'wrong' lamb that we have from time to time isnt a mild case of Shcmallenberg? Is it only the fact that seemingly whole flocks are affected at the moment that it has been recognised?

Im afraid Im going to have to put some gratuitus pics of the sheep on now! Its the only chance I get!! 

Cracker 







Herdwicks!







Ill have to pursuade photobucket to play nice and put up some pics of the herdwick lambs too as they are simply stunning! x


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## jrp204 (2 March 2012)

Some pics of some of our lot, the 4 are our commercial fatstock lambs 2011.


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## Alec Swan (2 March 2012)

Rosehip,

bloody Herdwicks!!  I had 4 of them once,  and with other ewes they lambed out in rough and long grass.  They hid their lambs,  and the only way to find them was to sit and watch,  and they'd always give the location away by an enquiring glance in the lambs direction.  The lambs were minuscule,  and I wondered if they'd find the teat,  but they did,  and they grew,  sort of!!  I sold them,  with their lambs,  to a local chum,  and he was so impressed with them,  he now has about 200 ewes,  and says that they're the best sheep which he's ever kept!  I certainly know that he sells every lamb which he can breed,  and locally too.

jrp,  what a lovely shearling ewe.  Quite lovely!!  Smart fat lambs too.  I'd bet they they went over 38 kgs!!  Our local abattoir pays me the same money for a 44 kg lamb,  as for a 38 kg,  with both being graded E,  and I find that a bit irksome!!  

The weather here is glorious today.  We're desperate for rain,  but with this sunshine,  the ewes look so well,  too well if anything,  but we'll see! 

Alec.


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## jrp204 (2 March 2012)

"jrp, what a lovely shearling ewe. Quite lovely!! Smart fat lambs too. I'd bet they they went over 38 kgs!! Our local abattoir pays me the same money for a 44 kg lamb, as for a 38 kg, with both being graded E, and I find that a bit irksome!! 


The shearling is by Castlecairn Pheonix, the champ fatstock lambs (we had supreme and reserve) made £240 each!! Not sure what weight they were but one lot were heavies the others lights. I'm not the 'sheep' person, more my hubbie and youngest daughter. Haven't been in this Texel game long but we are starting to get some nice stock. Just need to sell one to beat the top Texel price, 240k! If only.


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## Rosehip (2 March 2012)

They are some smart looking sheep jrp!!! Im not a fan of the purebreds per se, but even a heathen like me can see the quality! 
Have you every heard of/been judged by a chap called John Simms? Im his daughter 

Alec, they are brilliant mothers, but scared the living daylights out of us at first! The lambs just flop out and lie there! They dont raise their heads, they dont mumble or bleet, they dont do _anything_ until the ewe has licked them spotless!! We thought the 1st ewe had dropped dead lambs, we couldnt understand why they were so slow! They also 'tentpeg' their lambs - you can guarantee that wherever the ewe has put her lamb, that is were it will be at any given time in the day. Its a wonderful thing to witness really, and shows their absolute adaptation to their native habitat. Brilliant sheep, cant praise them highly enough to be honest  Karens tup lambs actually grew pretty well, and killed out nicely - and are yummy!! - and we are finding that crossed onto Dads texel x mule types (like the spotty faced girl out with cracker in my top pic) they are producing lambs with good length of leg, fabulous racks and a good backend too. They are very versatile!x


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## Alec Swan (4 March 2012)

Just a quick update.  Found a seriously under-developed lamb,  and some way away,  a second lamb,  also dead.  I've found the ewe,  an adult,  and suspect that in the process of aborting one dead lamb,  she's dumped the live one,  too.

The adult ewe,  would be 3 weeks early. _Mostly,  I find,_  the problems arise at the start of lambing,  or the end,  so fingers crossed,  this is a a naturally occurring abortion.  Bloody sheep!

Alec.


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## jrp204 (4 March 2012)

OH, i hate those 'mank' lambs! Doesn't sound SBV though. Fingers crossed for you, its the not knowing. Luckily we only have 4 left to go, we can then breathe a sigh of relief.


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## Rosehip (4 March 2012)

Oh what a 'bleep' Alec! It does sound - as you say  - that she was spitting out a dead lamb and slipped the other too. How dissapointing! Fingers crossed its a one off x


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## Alec Swan (6 March 2012)

Found a shearling ewe with a cracking single,  this morning,  another with a lovely set of twins,  but dead,  and now yet another shearling which I can't approach,  but I spy a rather large set of front feet.  She needs a little longer.  I hate using a dog to catch a wild arse'd ewe,  but sometimes it's the only way.

So the tally so far is a slipped pair of lambs,  a set of lovely twins,  also dead,  and a live single.  That's 1 out of 5. I keep telling myself that we always get our problems at the start,  and mostly we do.  The dead twins this morning showed no signs of SBV,  joints were entirely normal,  so perhaps it was just the cold and wet.  I only hope that the ewes being over fit isn't the cause.  It's worrying,  because they do look awfully well!!  Bugger,  what ever the reason!!

Alec.


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## Ranyhyn (6 March 2012)

Would you mind explaining what a shearling is?

I thought I would join in with some photos, ours are suffolk and texel crosses.  Mongrels, not worth much compared to some,  but I adore them.  
Our rams






and from summer






and the ewes






I am hoping with the dog attack, the people involve don't decide to try and chalk our losses up to the virus, who knows.  But previous losses on the farm have been minimal, so we'll see.


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## sywell (6 March 2012)

Bluetonge and now this disease is spread by midges. AHS is also spread by midges in horses and the east coast seems to be a starting point and this is where all the freight comes into the UK. I am not persuaded that they blow across the channel and neither are AHS experts in South Africa. What steps is DEFRA taking to trace the spread of this diseases and do something about controlling transport that might carry these midges in summer months. When on sees how close the main route for lorries the A14 is to Newmarket it seems inevitable that at some time AHS will arrive and current DEFRA controls are inadequate and so is compensation paid of £! if they slaughter your horse and it is not infected if it is in infected you get nothing.


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## millreef (6 March 2012)

Why are all these diseases so flipping difficult to pronounce!??? Schmallenflippingberg! Can't they just call it lambs syndrome and be done with it?  
Sorry if  ewe are effected by the way.


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## martlin (6 March 2012)

BoolavogueDC said:



			Would you mind explaining what a shearling is?
		
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Shearling is, for the ease of explaining, a 1 year old ewe - shorn once, hence shearling 

I am admiring some lovely sheep photos here. Including the brillo pads , sorry, Herdwicks - I have 3 of them in my flock.
Mine are mainly polled dorsets, some zwartbles and quite a few mongrels. We started lambing first batch on 11 December and as much as we are having a fairly poor year, it is hard to say if our losses can be attributed to Schmallenberg virus, or the loose dogs we had in with the ewes in November or just general bad luck.
I lost 2 ewes that just died  I mean, just popped their clogs for no reason whatsoever.


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## Alec Swan (6 March 2012)

sywell said:



			Bluetonge and now this disease is spread by midges. AHS is also spread by midges in horses and the east coast seems to be a starting point and this is where all the freight comes into the UK. I am not persuaded that they blow across the channel and neither are AHS experts in South Africa. What steps is DEFRA taking to trace the spread of this diseases and do something about controlling transport that might carry these midges in summer months. When on sees how close the main route for lorries the A14 is to Newmarket it seems inevitable that at some time AHS will arrive and current DEFRA controls are inadequate and so is compensation paid of £! if they slaughter your horse and it is not infected if it is in infected you get nothing.
		
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I'm with you doubting the claims that the midges or mosquitos are blown over here,  as carriers.  We have our own resident populations of the identical flying insects,  and I would believe it to be far more likely that infected animals are imported,  from these our own insect population become carriers,  and so the disease is propagated.  All the time that we were worried about Blue Tongue,  infected animals were still being imported into the UK,  but when we have an out break of just about anything,  then the Continent ban us from exporting to them.



millreef said:



			Why are all these diseases so flipping difficult to pronounce!??? Schmallenflippingberg! Can't they just call it lambs syndrome and be done with it?  
Sorry if  ewe are effected by the way.

Click to expand...

Schmallenberg is the town where the disease was first discovered,  and that's about all that we know about it!!


The single lamb from earlier is out,  unassisted and a whopper,  another set of twins have made an appearance,  and Pinky,  a pet Lleyn ewe,  who is as preggers as any sheep which I've ever seen,  is now down,  and fletching skywards,  looking for inspiration.  She had triplets last year,  so we'll see.

Alec.


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## rhino (6 March 2012)

I am astounded at the lack of available research, even for a supposedly 'new' virus; am I right to believe that there is as yet no test for antibodies to the Schmallenberg virus?


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## Alec Swan (6 March 2012)

rhino said:



			I am astounded at the lack of available research, even for a supposedly 'new' virus; am I right to believe that there is as yet no test for antibodies to the Schmallenberg virus?
		
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That's my understanding,  with diagnosis relying on a visual assessment.  It's also thought that a suitable vaccine will take 2 years to develop.  The problem here,  I would imagine,  is that as the larger companies invested huge fortunes in developing BTV8,  and no one seems to bother to vaccinate against BT any longer,  are the large drug manufacturers going to be in a rush to put in the research costs?  I very much doubt it.

Alec.


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## Alec Swan (6 March 2012)

On another note,  I've just received an interesting 'phone call.  It seems that within the town of Schmallenberg,  there's a pharmaceutical company who are being very tight lipped,  and a little twitchy over the details of their research work.

Considering that the last outbreak of FMD originated from laboratories at Pirbright in Surrey,  it does rather lead us to wonder just where this entirely new virus came from,  doesn't it?

Alec.


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## Rosehip (6 March 2012)

Fingers crossed for your Llyn ewe Alec....It certainly is very very interesting that a lab at the point of origin are sealing all lips....hmmmmm...... I had vocalised something similar to Dad when the news 1st broke, but was pooh pooed, time will tell I guess - I just hope correct proceedures are followed. 

On the note of your lost lambs Alec, we are having some stonking great donkey lambs to really quite poor old ewes, I wonder if the sudden flush of grass has pushed your younger, fitter ewes over the edge to 'plump'? We have also had several of the texel sired lambs coming in starved through and needing tubing and general tlc to get them going, where as all our Charolais lambs are bouncing around like ninja's almost immediately! We used different texel tups this year, and Im not convinced we will use them again.


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## rhino (6 March 2012)

Alec Swan said:



			On another note,  I've just received an interesting 'phone call.  It seems that within the town of Schmallenberg,  there's a pharmaceutical company who are being very tight lipped,  and a little twitchy over the details of their research work.

Considering that the last outbreak of FMD originated from laboratories at Pirbright in Surrey,  it does rather lead us to wonder just where this entirely new virus came from,  doesn't it?

Alec.
		
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If it is 'new' - with antibody testing it would be easy to see if animals in this country had had previous exposure... We had some interesting results after the Bird Flu outbreak, where relatively old birds had some immunity present.. not what 'should' have been the case  And developing a simple antibody test is neither particularly difficult nor expensive.

I have just found out an old Uni colleague is part of the research team in Germany, will see just how much information I am 'allowed' to know!


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## Sparkly Snowdrop (6 March 2012)

Alec Swan said:



			On another note,  I've just received an interesting 'phone call.  It seems that within the town of Schmallenberg,  there's a pharmaceutical company who are being very tight lipped,  and a little twitchy over the details of their research work.

Considering that the last outbreak of FMD originated from laboratories at Pirbright in Surrey,  it does rather lead us to wonder just where this entirely new virus came from,  doesn't it?

Alec.
		
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How very interesting Alec! I wait with bated breath to hear any more of that story!  Although I have to say it doesn't surprise me!

We don't start 'til April and are hoping that the midges would have died down by the time we turned our tup off, but who knows.
We have a mixture of Suffolk x's and Mules to lamb this year, just had one prolapse this morning so we are hoping that isn't the start of things to come.


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## jrp204 (6 March 2012)

We are nearly there, 3 left to go, 1 with triplets and 2 with twins. Just wish they would hurry up so we can all sleep ALL night, novelty!


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## rhino (6 March 2012)

Alec, this is the biotechnology/molecular biology research institute based in Schmallenberg.

This is where we seem to be:

Blood samples from cattle showing clinical symptoms led to the detection of gene sequences not present in unaffected animals

Comparison of these gene sequences has revealed a strong relationship with the Bunyaviridae viruses

The viral genes have also been detected in brain tissue from lambs showing congenital deformities

They have successfully been cultured in both insect and animal (hamster) cells

These cultured viral units have had a positive response when introduced to experimentally infected animals

No antibody specific tests have been developed; those already in commercial use for other Bunyaviruses failed to detect the Schmallenberg virus


However, the current diagnosis method remains unvalidated. The Friedrich Loeffler Institute in Germany is carrying out a great deal of research, however they have not sought to patent anything related to Schmallenberg, and are happy to share material and knowledge as long as it is for non-commercial purposes. 

There are still a huge number of unknowns - which species are acting as vectors, whether direct transmission of infection is possible, and of course, the origin of the virus (although the 'family' of related viruses show fairly common development of new strains)


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## Alec Swan (12 March 2012)

The news isn't desperately exciting.  The shearlings are the first to lamb,  and losses have been at about 50%.  I put teasers in, so the lambing period should have been tightened up,  but to date,  it's dragging out.

A strange thing,  but the bulk of the losses have been tup lambs.

I lambed a ewe an hour ago,  and the lamb is struggling to stand.  A very good lamb,  but HUGE fetlocks and feet,  but out of proportion to the admittedly decent body.  

Very strange,  and a little worrying.  Does anyone else have any experiences?

Alec.


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## jrp204 (12 March 2012)

You're having a time of it! We had a much tighter lambing this year and this was the first year we used a teaser, your losses are high! Are they being born poor, are they malpresented or are they dying in utero? We had an awful time 2 yrs ago, ewes ringbound etc but since then we have had the ewes on Lifeline buckets which seem to have made a difference. We are novices at this sheep lark as we've only had them for about 6 yrs so we are still learning.


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## Alec Swan (13 March 2012)

Since first light this morning,  7 ewes have lambed,  with 5 sets of twins,  1 set of triplets,  and a single.  About bloody time too!!

2 more ewes now started,  so off out for a quick inspection!!

Alec.


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## rhino (13 March 2012)

Alec Swan said:



			Since first light this morning,  7 ewes have lambed,  with 5 sets of twins,  1 set of triplets,  and a single.  About bloody time too!!

2 more ewes now started,  so off out for a quick inspection!!

Alec.
		
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Good news Alec


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## Ranyhyn (14 March 2012)

We lost our first ewe yesterday


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## Alec Swan (14 March 2012)

That really is a bummer,  isn't it?  Nothing and no-one should die during parturition.  Bloody horrible.

Just a word of caution for you,  as we're going (so I understand ) to be presented with a baby Boogaloo,  do be extremely cautious around ewes which are going through the birthing process.  

Enzootic abortion can be passed from sheep to human,  and it's the ewes body fluids,  so I understand where the transporting agent exists,  and it's also my understanding that the spores are ingested nasally.  

I don't mean to be an alarmist,  but would prefer to speak up,  than live with regret. 

Lots of love,  Kitty,  how are you? 

A. x


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## Ranyhyn (14 March 2012)

I am trying to be very careful, I don't touch anything but didn't realise you can inhale dangerous things?!  That's a whole new spin on it  I am starting to feel very useless here!    Thank you for mentioning it, I have been really careful not to touch anything or touch anything that has touched any birthing fluids ... but as I say will view with even more caution now.

Or maybe not at all 

OH is starting his time off to lamb on Friday, so I do hope nothing happens before then.  It's a hugely harsh thing to have to stand by and offer nothing to these girls.  

Apart from being useless, I'm fine  x


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## Ranyhyn (14 March 2012)

ETA this is our lost ewe, hope it's not too graphic for anyone.  So sad, she was a beautiful girl.


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## Emz99 (16 March 2012)

Yeah my boyfriend caught Q-fever via inhalation during lambing. As a vet student I've been following this thread closely, I've been to a couple of talks about it as its seen quite a lot in the south east which is home when I'm not at Uni. Can't really add anything else that's useful, I'm just keeping an eye on animal health website etc etc at the moment. Off lambing in Derbyshire next week so hopefully I won't get to see it!


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## Ranyhyn (16 March 2012)

Good lord what is Q fever!!?  Dare I google?
Seems this lambing is a hazardous lark.
Anyway our lambing is due to start with our red backs, on the 19th so I'm told.  And OH is always right to the day


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## Alec Swan (17 March 2012)

BoolavogueDC said:



			.......

Or maybe not at all 

.......
		
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I found this,  having googled Q Fever;

_Human infection usually occurs by inhalation of contaminated dust or exposure to amniotic fluid or placenta, where the organism can survive for a long time. Q fever is an uncommon human infection in the United Kingdom._

Both Q Fever and Enzootic Abortion are zoonosis,  so transferable from animals to humans.

Q Fever is very rare.  Enzootic Abortion isn't,  in the North of England,  or anywhere where there are high concentrations of sheep,  it's virtually endemic. 

You may well _feel_ useless,  that's what my OH says,  at this time of year,  and every year,  but it's the support and a listening service which can make all the difference. Oh,  and putting up with those who are sleep deprived. 

Alec.


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## Ranyhyn (17 March 2012)

Thanks Alec  that does make me feel better 

We have another prolapsed ewe this morning, OH is on the blower to a vet now getting some advice.  This is becoming all too frequent for my liking.
I must admit, coming from a horsey/doggy background where losses are generally minimal, this loss of animals really unsettles/upsets me


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## Alec Swan (17 March 2012)

Kitty,

probably a bit late,  but do you have a purpose made plastic _"Spoon"_?  It will be yoke shaped and you place the spatula shaped bit inside,  you find a length of bailer string,  attach it to one of the yokes,  pass it round the front of the sheep, _ pull it tight,_  and then tie it off on the other side of the yoke.  I've just re-read that,  and it seems to make little sense.

Anyway,......

Failing that,  stand the sheep virtually on its head,  by holding it's back legs in the air,  so that it's virtually on it's shoulders,  first clean and then push the womb back inside,  and stitch a suture into its fanny.  If you haven't any suitable thread,  then dental floss is brilliant,  I've found!!

The beauty is,  that both systems will allow the ewe to lamb past the obstruction,  if you see what I mean.

Having just read through the above,  yet again,  I bet that you're really looking forward to having your own baby,  aren't you?   Don't worry you'll be fine,  and if your not,  give me a shout!! 

Alec.


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## Ranyhyn (17 March 2012)

Thanks Alec, OH has just said the same thing, only less graphic   and yes, my delivery will be fun


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## mon (17 March 2012)

We always use a prolapse harness or thick bale twine made to the same shape, neck along back knotted above tail  under tail then one piece around each leg tied to back piece around loin area, think spoons are invite for bugs to enter.


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## Cuffey (17 March 2012)

Apologies if already posted but sprinkling granulated sugar over a prolapse helps to reduce it.


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## Ranyhyn (17 March 2012)

Thank you cuffey, appeals to my cooking sensibilities 

We have spoken with the vet at some length, who thinks our ewes are too well and the lambs too big, causing this problem.  Also they need to up their calcium.  Seems we have too good grazing here, both the sheep and the horses are too well! 

Oh and thanks for all your help, this is all new to me and seeing as I can't help all I can do is hurrang sheepy people on the internet for help


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## Sparkly Snowdrop (17 March 2012)

Interesting Cuffey, I didn't know that one. We use the OH holds ewe up in the air by her back legs method and I replace the prolapse and attach a spoon. We have only once had to resort to the prolapse harness with one who was unable to retain the spoon. (Touchwood) We have never had any infection problems with the spoons. So far only one prolapse this year and generally among our neighbours there have been very few.

BoolavogueDC~ It is generally thought that sheep being overweight causes prolapses but it is not always the case. We have had cases where the ewe is far from too fat and still prolapses. It's not easy to get fat sheep up her in these hills! Keep up the haranging, it's nice to talk to people about sheep with out them thinking you are slightly mad! lol


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## Ranyhyn (17 March 2012)

Do you think my photo of our lost ewe, looks too fat? I really don't know TBH, I just think she looks healthy! But maybe, that's a "mother's" love   Our ewes only get a bucket of cake between them (29 ewes) and sporadic haying (think they've only had 20bales this winter!) and have been grazing on our worst grazing since Dec.. I struggle with how we'll make them "worse" next year when I didn't think they got much this year!

It is lovely to talk to people, I can ask you guys the thick questions I wont ask OH


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## jrp204 (17 March 2012)

Cuffey said:



			Apologies if already posted but sprinkling granulated sugar over a prolapse helps to reduce it.
		
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No, please do not put sugar on it! it gives a lovely breeding ground for bacteria.


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## jrp204 (17 March 2012)

We had problems with our texels for a couple of years being too fat, too big lambs, prolapsed and getting ring bound. Think we have it sorted now now, very little feed but ad lib 'lifeline' Buckets, they have made a huge difference. Our ewes for the past 2 years since feeding them have not been ring bound at all, we keep them much leaner too, scanning also allows us to feed singles differently to the twin and triplet ewes in fact the single get no hard feed at all. It is all a learning curve, we were dairy farmers years ago and the ran a contracting business so this sheep lark is relatively new.


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## Ranyhyn (17 March 2012)

The only common denominators we can find, is possibly age (although we've got older ewes not prolapsing) and management.  The ewes prolapsing went to different rams, so some are carrying texel x and others suffolk x.
They get a generic ewe nut and a mineral block.  Along with what I deem to be good quality hay - however as the horses are massively good off the grazing alone, leads me to think that it might be the grass quality maybe?


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## jrp204 (17 March 2012)

They probably don't need the ewe nuts or the hay, if you think about how much room they have inside them with a big lamb or twins, with the extra food there is only 1 way they can make room for it and that is prolapsing. With good grass a mineral lick or lifeline tubs should be enough. Once they have lambed you can then give them the hard feed.


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## Ranyhyn (17 March 2012)

Thanks, will put that to OH.  He's had sheep all his life, but it may be now that things need changing, well they certainly do with two prolapsed already.


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## Cuffey (19 March 2012)

jrp204 said:



			No, please do not put sugar on it! it gives a lovely breeding ground for bacteria.
		
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It always worked for me and if not sufficient the special harness--had ewes for 20+years and some were elderly.

We preserve food in sugar.


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## jrp204 (19 March 2012)

Cuffey said:



			It always worked for me and if not sufficient the special harness--had ewes for 20+years and some were elderly.

We preserve food in sugar.
		
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Just saying what our vet said. 
We have used the harness and spoons which usually do the trick, have lost a couple who prolapsed in the night, the one that survived the vet put back and sewed her up (that made me cross my legs)
http://www.sac.ac.uk/research/themes/animalhealth/animalhealthwelfare/sheep/lambing/prolapse/


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## Ranyhyn (20 March 2012)

We have our first set of twin lambs born yesterday, apart from weak fetlocks (which I gather is quite frequent) both lambs are fine.
These two born from our (2nd)prolapsed ewe.


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## jrp204 (20 March 2012)

Good start! Keep it up.


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## Alec Swan (29 March 2012)

Lambing seems to be moving on a pace,  and we have some huge singles,  along with the generally proportionally smaller twins.

Two strange things which I've noticed,  firstly;  now that we're into the mature ewes,  it's surprising how many ewes are losing the odd half of a set of twins.  Correctly sized lambs,  which have been alive at birth,  the ewe has cleaned them,  and there they are,  dead within an hour or so,  and secondly,  generally the lambs being born,  are _mostly_ a bit dopey,  and they seem a bit lethargic.  By the time that they're a week old,  they seem to be fine. We've also had an unusually large proportion of ewes needing assistance,  mostly because of badly presented lambs,  with legs back.

I'm not sure if the above problems are because of an underlying problem,  or are of my making through mismanagement.  They're lambing out,  and are standing on very little in the way of keep,  until the lambs are rung,  and then they go on to decent grass.  Perhaps I'll give the ewes yet to lamb access to better grass,  and see if that helps. (Don't know,  just thinking out loud!! )

Alec.

Ets.  Boogaloo,  meant to say,  decent lambs,  well done.  Are they still doing well? a. xx


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## Tinsel Trouble (29 March 2012)

Alec Swan said:



			Two strange things which I've noticed,  firstly;  now that we're into the mature ewes,  it's surprising how many ewes are losing the odd half of a set of twins.  Correctly sized lambs,  which have been alive at birth,  the ewe has cleaned them,  and there they are,  dead within an hour or so,  and secondly,  generally the lambs being born,  are _mostly_ a bit dopey,  and they seem a bit lethargic.  By the time that they're a week old,  they seem to be fine. We've also had an unusually large proportion of ewes needing assistance,  mostly because of badly presented lambs,  with legs back.
		
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From what I have read the severity of the virus depends on the foetus' development at that time. If the foetus is well established then the lambs seem to be surviving. If they are bitten whilst the foetus is very small and everything is still being 'created' (for want of a better word!) then the lambs are very deformed. The best article I have read so far has been in the Scottish Farming Leader (NFU's scottish magazine) they have quite graphic pics and a more detailed explaination of what's happening, than then English versions.
FW are just reporting on instances- no real news, or indepth look so far!

(excuse the spelling... i'm hiding this at work!!)


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## Ranyhyn (29 March 2012)

Alec - The first one, little Ric was PTS yesterday, spinal abscess formed through an infection via the umbilical cord thing the vet thought.  Really very sad, he was a very dear little boy.  All the rest are fab, we however have some triplets causing us a problem, we've yet to have a single lamb conveniently to foster one on to. So we'll see how that goes.

Hope everyone else is ok, we now have 11 lambs.


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## Jesstickle (1 April 2012)

I am such a sad sack. I've just read this whole thread and it's been really interesting. And I don't even have sheep! I think I might want some now though


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## Ravenwood (1 April 2012)

We've had a terrible start to lambing 

I bought 20 two tooths last September, 10 of them have lambed and we've lost over 50% so far   The other 10 are due to lamb later.

OH's 700 commercial ewes are in full swing now and not having the same problems thankfully.

The majority of lambs were born fine, lived for 2/3 days then suddenly went downhill and were dead in 24 hrs.  The vets came out, I had a PM done.  The lambs had colostrum, scourhalt and an anti b for E coli but no joy and no idea why.  

Nearly all the lambs were born very bow legged.  The lambs that have lived are doing really well and looking great/straightened up etc but I only have 7 lambs from 10 ewes.  The other 10 were put to a different ram so it will be interesting to see how that goes.

Thank God OH's lambing is going better otherwise the financial implications wouldn't bear thinking about - mine are just a small hobby and it doesn't matter that I lose money this year but its very distressing to watch a, what appeared to be perfectly fine lamb, die and not be able to do anything about it.

It has been suggested that this is a mild case of Schmallenberg but actually I doubt that having read up about it.

Anyone ever experienced anything similar?

Off to read the rest of the thread!

ETS:  Just read a few most replies and wanted to add that all the ewes come in for lambing about 4 weeks prior.  Its an organic farm so they are fed organic hay/silage and nuts.


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## Alec Swan (1 April 2012)

Ravenwood said:



			We've had a terrible start to lambing 

I bought 20 two tooths last September, 10 of them have lambed and we've lost over 50% so far   The other 10 are due to lamb later........

The majority of lambs were born fine, lived for 2/3 days then suddenly went downhill and were dead in 24 hrs.  The vets came out, I had a PM done.  The lambs had colostrum, scourhalt and an anti b for E coli but no joy and no idea why.  

Nearly all the lambs were born very bow legged.  The lambs that have lived are doing really well and looking great/straightened up etc but I only have 7 lambs from 10 ewes.  
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RW,  Dear God how awful for you.  I can't for the life of me,  think what could be so catastrophically wrong for you.  

1.  Shearlings,  naturally virile and useful mothers. 

2.  Adequate colostrum,  and Anti-Bs,  *AND* Scourhalt.

3.  A competent vet.

All our lambs which have gone past the 24hr period,  are fine.  The legs with rickets would raise an eyebrow,  perhaps,  but then when ewes suffer a deficiency,  they generally put their all into the lambs,  and take the hit themselves.

I'm so sorry to hear of your disappointments,  but would be really interested to hear if you manage to get to the bottom of it.

As a matter of interest,  what's your OH's opinion?

Alec.


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## Sparkly Snowdrop (1 April 2012)

Ravenwood ~ so sorry to hear that, I have no suggestions as to what it may be. 

We have started now and so far have 2 good sized singles, 1 set of twins and 1 set of triplets. Our lambs seem to be very wick this year and are up and going in no time. All have got on and lambed themselves. 

Everyone around here seems to be starting lambing earlier than expected this year, some as much as a week early! Has anyone else found this?


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## Ravenwood (2 April 2012)

Alec - OH puts it down to the ram (there is rather a long story attached to this but it would bore you to tears - LOL!).  Personally I don't agree but then again I have no idea what it is either and nor do the vets.

One of the other ten lambed last night (this was one put to a different ram - Suffolk) and - it was born quite lethargic, didn't want to suckle, didn't want to take colostrum from the bottle either but by this morning was up and suckling - fingers crossed for this little single!

Snowdrop - OH had quite a few early this year too but actually we are now in the planned week and they are popping them out like shelling peas


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## Ladydragon (2 April 2012)

Two thirds of the way through on the farm where I livery - and spend most of my time... 

Lambing in...  A high number of yearlings that need to be pulled but arguably - lambing in might have a relevance with restricted movement/fitness...  Lamb losses have been really low this year with only one ewe/lamb combination, one stillborn lamb while the twin was fine and one with an unfused spine...  A friend of mine has had a higher incidence of orphans than normal, with another having a few quads after not seeing any for a few years...  So it does seem a bit all over the place this year... I do love lambing which is probably a good thing as they're all crossing their legs for ages then six or seven are starting at the same time...  Calving due to start this week with two early arrivals that are fine... 

We're South Wales and everyone I know has been crossing fingers but there doesn't seem to be anything indicative of the virus with anyone I know in this area...  Yet...  A lady on my craft forum who I believe is in the south of England has had higher than expected kid losses...    It is a pretty worrying time...


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## Ranyhyn (2 April 2012)

We're now onto 14 left to lamb.

We've had one loss, little ram lam who had a spinal abscess.

Other than that we've been fine, however, out of the 14 ewes lambed, 12 have had triplets or twins!  With only two singles (one of them being the biggest lamb ever I think!)

RW so sorry to hear that, I found it deeply upsetting to lose one let alone the amount you've dealt with.  Ours too are a hobby, but that doesn't do much to lessen the heartache.  I can't imagine the fear in commercial farmers hearts, it's shocking.

JT - I love my sheep now, although I did try to toe-poke one a few days ago because she attacked the dog...I missed.  OH hasn't stopped laughing...


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## jodie3 (2 April 2012)

Our first ewe to lamb had triplets and one died but looked alright so think it was a 'normal' death rather than from the virus.  We've had three sets of twins all ok but the first (and so far only) Jacob to lamb we had to take to the vets as lamb was completely stuck.  The vet struggled too but eventually removed a dead, very large, single lamb.   Not horribly wrong but not quite right either - misshapen jaw, hooves and front legs odd - so sent it off for testing.  

We weren't due to start lambing til this week so slightly early.


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## Alec Swan (5 April 2012)

jodie3,

how are things now,  three days later?  We were doing reasonably well,  then with two days and a night of constant rain, 1.25" we've had some loses.  

5 ewes with newborn lambs were brought in,  and they do seem rather strange.  My vet says that for SBv I've described them perfectly,  in their behaviour,  but that all those which he's seen have had physical deformities,  none of which mine have had.  They are a bit dopey though.  I've had lambs die at 3 or 4 days,  without any apparent distress.  With Watery Mouth,  they are quite obviously in great pain,  but those that I've lost have just been very limp and listless.  Those lambs to which I've given colostrum,  seem unable or unwilling to suck the teat,  so I've tubed them.  It just seems that they can't be bothered.

I feel that the virus under discussion can manifest itself in ways other than physical deformities.

I've had two ewes prolapse,  put spoons in,  they've started lambing,  I've been unable to get to the lambs,  shot the ewes and caesared  them,  got huge and live twins out of them,  only to have them live for between 2 minutes and 2 hours.  

Those ewes with live and healthy lambs are at about 162%,  which for Texels isn't too bad.  The losses though are getting me down a bit,  and it seems that there's nothing which I can do for those who have no intention of living.

Alec.


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## jrp204 (5 April 2012)

Alec, i don't envy you! We only had to put a spoon in 1 pre lambing and she lambed through it ok. We've generally been lucky, about 200% for the Texels with most having good lambings, 2 c. secs resulting with 2 sets of live twins, lost 1 ewe through ruptured uterus. Commercials, all 8 of them, were fine but mainly singles. Finished now except for our 5 fatstock ewes who are due end of the month.


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## Ranyhyn (5 April 2012)

That's really sad Alec, especially with your two prolapses.  It is really bad when something that looks outwardly fine, ends up dying.  Our lamb with the abscess was a gorgeous big lamb.  I don't know enough to helpfully comment, but just wanted to send some hugs and some easter choccy in the hopes it perks you up a little 


ETA 6 left to lamb (two potentially not in lamb)
We have around 4 singles, the rest (13or so) all had twins or in one case, triplets.
So from 28 ewes we've had 33 so far! (I hope this is right lol its been a long morning!)
One ewe died
One lamb died
One PTS


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## Ranyhyn (6 April 2012)

Some pics of our lambs


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## Ravenwood (6 April 2012)

Update from me 

We've had two lambs from the second half of the flock this week.  Both lambs born strong and healthy - no bowed legs etc.  They've been ringed, tagged and turned out 

These two are from the other ram that we used (Suffolk) so maybe OH was right - maybe it was the first ram (Texel) that caused the terrible losses from the first lot?   And considering OH's commercial lambs haven't had the same fate it could all add up.

Will keep you updated as how the rest go.   Its such a relief to have some healthy lambs at last!


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## Sparkly Snowdrop (7 April 2012)

Well we are a week in to lambing now and all is going well so far. Horrible blizzards and storm on Tuesday night so all the flock were brought down into our fold yard. We ended up with 2ft drifts in our top fields so we were glad we did. A pair of twins born just as it started got a bit starved in the cold but warmed up once we had them in the barn. We have had no power at all for 4 days so thank god we haven't needed the heat lamp for any of them, the lines were brought down in the storm. So far we are at 160%, which for a hill flock is pretty good going. Fingers crossed things continue in the same way.


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## Alec Swan (10 April 2012)

Are we affected by the virus?  It seems that we are.  

I've had a lengthy talk with my vet,  and whilst the original thinking was that deformity and a listless approach to life,  went hand in hand,  it seems that the thinking may now be changing,  in that SB_v may affect different lambs,  but in different ways.  The guy who clips my sheep is a highly skilled and competent man.  We have both had apparently healthy lambs die at 4 or 5 days of age,  lambs which should have been fine.  

Another strange point,  I've had a talk with another chum of mine,  and we both use teasers,  the idea being that it tightens up the lambing group.  Generally it works,  but this year it hasn't,  and we both seem to be in the same boat.  After six weeks in,  we both have a way to go before the end.  Mind you,  that could be poor management!! 

This is the strangest lambing that I've ever known,  that's for certain.

Alec.


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## Sparkly Snowdrop (22 April 2012)

Alec, sorry to hear about your difficult time this year. 

Just wondered how everyone was doing? We have four left to lamb now so we can sort of see the light at the end of the tunnel. We have had a very slow lambing time and the weather has really made it hard work, but as we stand at the moment we have 51 lambs born and 51 still living! We've had two sets of triplets, only the 5th and 6th sets we have had in 15 years of lambing. One ewe will cope with hers with them getting a bit of a top up from a bottle. The other I think will end up with twins and I'll have a pet lamb! 

It would be amazing if we get to the end of lambing with no losses, fingers (very tightly) crossed.


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## Ranyhyn (23 April 2012)

Hope everyone is doing well.

we only have one suspect lamb, well he's not truly suspect he's just a bit thick.  He doesn't quite move fluidly, however OH tells me there is usually one special lamb in his flock every year.  We may end up keeping him as a teaser mind, because he'll bring our pen down apparently, moving round like a drongo!
Still - he can outrun me!!
This morning he was out with his mum and twin, in an isolation paddock.  My heart SANK to see him lying far away from her as she grazed.  He didn't move as I pulled his mum in, baaing all the way.
He didn't move as I approached him.
"Percy?" I said, hoping he'd move.
Well if I did.  He SHOT up and legged it!  Even running like golem/yoda's lovechild, he was miles faster than me.

I spent 30mins chasing him round, no mean feat when 5 months pregnant.

only then it occurred to get mum back out to lead him in.  Which she did.

Ignored the urge to beat him up  learning the ways of sheep is hard!


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## Alec Swan (6 June 2012)

Thinking of Schmallenberg virus,  and now that your lambs will be growing,  I was wondering if any of you have noticed deformities,  which you may have missed at the time of birth.

I have several lambs which were born with huge feet,  pasterns and joints,  and they seem to be _now_ deformed.  Lambs will sometimes have a small thorn enter between the cleaves of the feet,  and work its way up to a knee,  or a hock,  but these lambs seem to be affected in both left and right knee joints,  or both hocks.  I'll have a word with my vet,  but I was wondering if others were noticing any changes during growth.  

Alec.


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## jrp204 (6 June 2012)

No, haven't noticed anything. Hope everything is ok otherwise?


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