# First time pregnant mare owner - numpty feed advice please



## *hic* (25 January 2011)

OK, so I find myself in charge of a rising 5 rather small (13.2) Connie mare who previously bred a foal at 3yo. She wasn't supposed to be in foal but was running with two stallions. She's now been confirmed in foal between 5 and 8 months gone. She was unhandled till she came to us and has started her education and we are very pleased with her sweet nature and desire to please.

In the past month she's been moved from a poor grass-only diet to decent hay. Following the confirmation she was expecting, the offerings of the local feed merchants were inspected and D&H Mare and Youngstock selected, to be introduced in small quantities at first together with a small handful of molassed chaff and some unmolassed sugar beet. 

On opening the bag we were rather surprised to see a large proportion of oats. Less than a double handful is being fed morning and evening. Three days in and our sweet young lady has turned into a bargy, snorting, monster. Her laid back nature is still evident but she really has an edge now just reacting to noises off etc. I don't suspect the molasses as she's had a molassed lick for the past three weeks with no change in behaviour.

As a control we've now taken the Mare and Youngstock mix out of the equation and carried on with the chaff and beet in the same quantities as previously. If, as I suspect, her behaviour improves over the next few days we would like to give her and the foetus some extra nutritional support but is there anything anyone would suggest for a pony who appears to be so hotted up by the "appropriate" feed? Preferably with little or no oats in?

Oh and the other wrinkle in the tale? The two stallions both had super temperaments and looked nice specimens (we've been back to see them!) One is a Section D and the other one . . . is a donkey. It makes little difference to us as she was bought because of her sweet nature (and she's a bit of a looker) and it was always intended to bring her on very slowly.


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## tinkerbelle (25 January 2011)

Do you think it's definitely the feed? or have you changed anything else that could lead to the temprement change? My TB mare has been on D&H M&Y for over a year now (just about to wean) and I never noticed a change. Sorry this probably isn't a great help as the D&H has worked brilliantly for me (mare was extremely thin this time last year 5 months in due to bad livery yard and it sorted her right out and produced a super foalie). As well just keep her on the best hay you can find! and fingers crossed for a super baby - its the best feeling ever when you get that gorgeous bundle


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## LadyRascasse (25 January 2011)

Is she is good condition? and does she need hard feed? if not then i would be inclined not make sure she has ad lib forage and let her be. to many foals are getting problems from being over fed in the womb and as youngsters. and you will make it harder for her to foal is she is a)overweight and b) the foal has overgrown. 

good luck and I hope you have a healthy and happy mare and foal in a few months.


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## Thistle (25 January 2011)

W is 170 days (51/2 months)

She is out in the day and has 2 feeds, breakfast and tea, I use the new unmollassed dengie Alfa A, she has about 3/4 big round scoop in each feed wet with a good dollop of unmollassed beet. She also has a mug of spillers balancer in one feed and half a mug of linseed in the other. She has plently of haylage overnight.
She is a very good doer so much so that when the grass was still growing in November she had to go on a diet, even though she was getting less than she is now. Weight loss was achieved by increasing her work slightly. Vets advice.

She is now a decent weight, rounded but not fat, her tummy is starting to grow though.


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## *hic* (26 January 2011)

Thank you all for your replies.

Tinkerbelle - unless it's just her settling in and feeling more confident and thus brattish  then it can only be the feed, nothing else has changed. We've cut out the "obvious" cause and will be watching to see how she changes.

LadyRascasse - when the vet confirmed she was expecting we asked what to give her and were told a decent balanced feed "with everything in it" in smallish quantities as well as her current (almost) ad lib forage. We just assumed that the simplest way to make sure "everything" was included was to carry on with the mineral lick she has (as agreed with vet) and get a targetted feed. She is in reasonable condition, coat is lacking quality and shine but she has a covering over her ribs. The coat could partly be explained by her still being a little sensitive about being brushed - she'd never met one until a month ago!

Thistle - you must be so excited about W! - we do have unmolassed alfalfa in the feed she, I feed it to the big horses. 

I think, from the above, I conclude that we need to finish the withdrawal trial and if that goes as expected then make use of what is already in the feed room by giving her alfalfa, beet (LOVE beet as a feed!) and a balancer and see how she goes on that. As well as her access to my rather nice "haylage" that is in fact superb quality wrapped hay!


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## Thistle (26 January 2011)

That sounds like a good plan.

I'm certainly not an expert but the way I see it is that the mare should be able to maintain  a decent condition whilt being able to supply all the foal needs.

If the mare is naturally a good food converter she will require substantially less food than a skinny minnie. I just make sure they get a good quality protein and forage source and enough balancer to give all the extras. I'll probably swap to a specific stud balancer soon but still go easy on the food.

Funny thing is that when W is in full work, hunting or competing she has loads of heating feed or she drops weight. The minute her work drops her weight balloons.


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## hobo (26 January 2011)

No comment on the feeding but can,t wait to see the who's the daddy foal!


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## GinnieRedwings (26 January 2011)

If in good condition, in-foal mares *do not need* any extra feed at all - it is a recipe for huge foals and foaling problems - especially in a native breed.

If she is in good condition, the only thing she will need is ad-lib forage (grass, hay, haylage) and a good vitamin/mineral supplement. Extra calories will be needed in the first 3 months post-partum to help with the milk production, but again, if she is a good doer, and by that time there should be spring grass which is very high in calories, a bit of stud balancer (there are several good ones on the market) and NOT at the manufacturer's recommended levels(!!!) should be plenty.

Please remember that feed manufacturers have a vested interest in us stuffing our horses stupid with their products. Mares are designed to give birth in the spring, just when the spring grass comes through. In a wild or ferral situation, they would have eaten large quantities of very poor quality forage, dead grass, leaves, bark, etc.. in the last months of gestation. That is how they have evolved to function. 

Please, please, do not overfeed your mare - sometimes looking at what nature intended is the very kindest thing you can do for your horse.


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## Clarence09 (26 January 2011)

There is a reason why feed manufacturers have recommended feeding levels included on feed bags and this is ensure that vitamins and minerals are supplied at the recommended levels.  In an in foal mare this is important to ensure that you are supporting the foals growth.  

UK grazing is deficient in certain nutrients therefore an addional source of vits and mins is important for all horses.  

I agree with the above that if your mare is doing well that she probably does not need a huge amount of additional feed, a fibre feed such as the Alfa-A or if she is holding her weight well the Hi-Fi (better than a molassed chaff as will contain alfalfa which will supply a good source of quality protein) should be adequate.  However she does need a source of added vitamin and minerals and during the last trimester a specific stud balancer would be preferable.  This should be fed at the recommended quantity.  Balancers are designed to supply a concentrated source of vitamin and minerals therefore the feeding rate will be relatively low but will ensure that the mares requirements are met.  

GinnieRedwings I think that your comments about Feed Companies are unfair, if you have ever called a feed help line for advice I think you will find that their advice is often invaluable.  There is not much in the world that is free but feeding advice can be!


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## GinnieRedwings (26 January 2011)

Clarence09 said:



			UK grazing is deficient in certain nutrients therefore an addional source of vits and mins is important for all horses.
		
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GinnieRedwings said:



			If she is in good condition, the only thing she will need is ad-lib forage (grass, hay, haylage) and _a good vitamin/mineral supplement_.
		
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Clarence09 said:



			GinnieRedwings I think that your comments about Feed Companies are unfair, if you have ever called a feed help line for advice I think you will find that their advice is often invaluable.  There is not much in the world that is free but feeding advice can be!
		
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You misunderstand me. I use Bailey's feeds (Bailey's Stud Balancer for my broodmare when she is nursing) and find them very helpful with their advice, BUT the recommended amounts are completely nuts (if you pardon the pun) and take things with a pinch of salt. The advances of quality of feed for horses in the last 20 years or so have "coincided" with the explosion in the incidence of all sorts of developmental issues in young horses (physitis, OCD, Angular Limb Difformity...) not to mention the numbers of oversized foals dying at birth or/and killing their dam in the process, and my informed opinion on the matter is that this is due to overfeeding during pregnancy and overfeeding of foals and weanlings. 

My friend just purchased a nice ISH 5 year old and before that she had 3 of similar age/breed/quality in the £6k-£10k price range fail the vet on x-rays because of OCD. Now, I can't claim to have any stats on the matter, but it seems to me to be an upwards trend... my vet happens to agree and nearly hugged me when I told him what I feed my broodies & weanlings. 

If you know the nutritional contents of your hay and add the relevant amount of deficient vits/mins, *there is no need for adding cereals or extra proteins  * to a normal or good-doing in-foal mare's diet or to a foal/weanling/yearling's diet. Keep that for when they are in medium to heavy work.


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## Tiny Fluffy Coblet (26 January 2011)

True ^ most feed companies' help lines also offer far better advice than the back of the bag though even that can be a bit over the top. The back of the feed bag usualy reccomends feeding enough to turn your average doped up poor doer into a lardy lunatic. 

An in foal native with good covering - I agree with the above, ad lib forage and a decent lo cal blanacer/all round vit&mineral supplement with a little fibre based feed if necessary, oats are a no-no.

Incidentaly take to look at a few pasture mixs - reccomended by many feed companies for horses in retirement or very light work, many of them have oats in them.


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## seabsicuit2 (26 January 2011)

GR- some common sense spoken there. 
Did speak to a number of nutritionists about what to feed my TB mare ( currently 5/6 months gone) and she went stark raving potty on the amounts that were recommended. I've cut her right down to just a bit of alfa-oil and a tiny bit of balancer. 
Must admit that I am a bit worried about what to feed her in the last few months of pregnancy, considering that she goes potty on all feed ( however I think that soya is the main culprit) any advice? she seems to be a very good do-er at the moment.


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## fruity (26 January 2011)

echo GinnyRedwings. My welsh d won't be having a drastic change in her feed regime when she takes (hopefully!)


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## orionstar (27 January 2011)

All I fed mine was a pasture mix with vit and min supplement added for the first two trimesters and then a mare and foal mix for the last, but no where near the recommended amount, and plenty of apples and carrots.  Shes a good doer and I'd read several web sites regarding feeding, and I do agree with some of the other posts regarding overfeeding.  When I had my first foal, I was feeding him stud mix, but a change to non heating course mix was recommended when he turned into a lunatic, and that did the trick.


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## JanetGeorge (28 January 2011)

Clarence09 said:



			GinnieRedwings I think that your comments about Feed Companies are unfair, if you have ever called a feed help line for advice I think you will find that their advice is often invaluable.  There is not much in the world that is free but feeding advice can be!
		
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Mmm - I agree with GinnieRedwings!  If I fed my broodmares HALF the recommended levels I'd never get the foals out!  Feeding advice is NOT 'free' if you buy the feed, feed at the recommended level - and get a dead foal and a damaged (or dead!) mare!

For a young native mare, all I would feed is good forage (and not an  EXCESSIVE amount of it!) and a good min/vit mix such as Sure Limb which is MADE for brood mares and youngstock.  And it's so palatable if you put a couple of measures in a feed bowl, they'll lap it up with no feed added!


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## Alec Swan (28 January 2011)

JanetGeorge said:



			Mmm - I agree with GinnieRedwings!  If I fed my broodmares HALF the recommended levels I'd never get the foals out!  Feeding advice is NOT 'free' if you buy the feed, feed at the recommended level - and get a dead foal and a damaged (or dead!) mare!

For a young native mare, all I would feed is good forage (and not an  EXCESSIVE amount of it!) and a good min/vit mix such as Sure Limb which is MADE for brood mares and youngstock.  And it's so palatable if you put a couple of measures in a feed bowl, they'll lap it up with no feed added!
		
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I do so enjoy your posts,  Mrs. George!!  Straightforward,  factual and with barely a waisted word.

I would always prefer to listen to the advice of an experienced product user,  than the person who's trying to sell it to me!!  The former will generally speak from the viewpoint of experience,  and the latter,  from theory.

Alec.


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## Rollin (29 January 2011)

Alec Swan said:



			I do so enjoy your posts,  Mrs. George!!  Straightforward,  factual and with barely a waisted word.

I would always prefer to listen to the advice of an experienced product user,  than the person who's trying to sell it to me!!  The former will generally speak from the viewpoint of experience,  and the latter,  from theory.

Alec.
		
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I feed D&H Mare and Youngstock and so far have not had huge foals, although the first Shagya a colt was a strong and sturdy little chap and his full sister is very long limbed.


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## tristar (29 January 2011)

natives turn everything into calories, they come from places like connemara, which is not a rich grazing area, she's not had a foal last year, its her first so her mineral levels are not depleted.
good hay contains lots of calcium, iwould feed hay as necessary and minerals and vits in small quantities, and check her weight by her neck and ribs daily, to improve her coat a little linseed once a week, remember the foal takes what it needs from the mare, the time to feed is before the mare conceives when she helps the foal to form its systems and maybe after it is born, if needed.
 with ponies you have to allow for the spring grass coming  through and watch the calories to avoid all sorts of problems and maintain a consistant feed regime.
i've come to the conclusion that a lot of mixes for breeding are good but they ar in part responsible for a lot of the over the top naughtiness seen in young horses , clean grass and good fibre at regular intervals are what i use, and keeping them in at night is a good way to control the excessive weight gain.


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## frozzy (29 January 2011)

Native pony mares are notoriously good doers and when in foal will have no need of anything other than  good quality forage and a vitamin/mineral supplement.
We breed Welshies and a friend breeds top class Connies that go on to perform at highest level and even when in foal you have to watch for laminitis.
If you continue to feed the D&H mare and youngstock your mare is at risk. These natives evolved to make the most of their grub.


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## *hic* (29 January 2011)

Thank you for more replies.

tristar - this is not her first foal, she foaled in 2009. Her hay intake is generous but monitored.

frozzy - as per my OP we stopped feeding the Mare and Youngstock mix but have left her on the chaff and beet. She is now returning to her usual easy self so we won't be feeding any more of that!

I'm liking the sound of the Sure Limb so once I'm certain she's back to normal I'll try some of that but please all rest assured I'm really NOT going to fatten her up or heat her up, I guess it's a good thing we discovered what oats will do to her now and not once she's been turned into a child's pony!


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## cundlegreen (29 January 2011)

Certainly agree with the above comments re forage. People seem to forget what a large gut the horse has. In the wild, they would be grazing most of the time, BUT exercising most of the time, roaming in search of food. Most domesticated horses are fed "shorts", kept in very small spaces (look at your average livery yard), and don't exercise very much at all.
Why oh why have oats had such a bad press??? Most mixes that I have seen, even the so called "cool mixes" have barley and soya as well as oats. GW and JT, you have seen my horses. They are all fed on a 13% hi fi nut, with the young ones having organic crushed oats as well. I've never had any behaviour problems with them, and at the Futurity, the vet was very impressed with their limbs and correctness. I haven't fed a mix for many years, as they have so much sugar in them. ( Now theres a real villain!)


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## tristar (30 January 2011)

we have such rich grass that i found using mixes and cubes even in small quantities is fattening, so i have started using black oats and so far they are looking slimmer and not going bonkers, the quest is to find a diet as natural as possible, as cundlegreen  says sugar is in lots of mixes, and chemicals and synthetic vitamins, and are the protein sources always compatible with equines?


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## *hic* (30 January 2011)

cundlegreen said:



			Certainly agree with the above comments re forage. People seem to forget what a large gut the horse has. In the wild, they would be grazing most of the time, BUT exercising most of the time, roaming in search of food. Most domesticated horses are fed "shorts", kept in very small spaces (look at your average livery yard), and don't exercise very much at all.
Why oh why have oats had such a bad press??? Most mixes that I have seen, even the so called "cool mixes" have barley and soya as well as oats. GW and JT, you have seen my horses. They are all fed on a 13% hi fi nut, with the young ones having organic crushed oats as well. I've never had any behaviour problems with them, and at the Futurity, the vet was very impressed with their limbs and correctness. I haven't fed a mix for many years, as they have so much sugar in them. ( Now theres a real villain!)
		
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I agree with all you say in principle however, this mare came to us and was put on to, effectively, ad lib hay. She was given a molassed horslyx lick and her behaviour remained, if anything, somewhat subdued. After a couple of weeks and following vet advice we started her on a small feed - beet, molassed chaff and the Mare and Youngstock mix. Suddenly she was very bargy and in your face, instead of being turned out and wandering off she was barging and snorting on her way out and going off like a rocket. She is intended for a 10yo child who is helping out with her atm and I had to tell her not to go in with the mare after she started to bounce about and raised a hind leg - NOT what I want in a child's pony! We then took her off the mix and left her on the chaff and beet - so plenty of opportunity for sugar there - and her behaviour is back to down to normal but after several days. Something in the mix has caused this behaviour change. 

I'm a strong believer in that what may be fine for one can upset another - heaven knows my own digestive system is odd, let alone my reaction to prescription drugs and in this case something in the mix upset this mare to a considerable degree, given the small amounts she was fed. Her intended owner is now aware that she can be sensitive to some foods and will need to test to find out what she can be fed without causing her to get over excitable - assuming that in her intended career as a child's pony she ever needs anything other than forage! I guess it was better we found out now than when she has started her career proper.

And yes, your foals are superb I'm not sure if you have any due this year but if you have I hope they will be as lovely as the ones I met last year!


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## mynutmeg (5 February 2011)

We had a very similar reaction to the D&H Cool mix with my sister's cob - after 3 days he was unhandlable and normal he's the easiest horse to do.
Try the Spillars stud mix as we've never had any bother with any of the spillars feeds including the high energy ones.


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