# Jealousy?



## BVoyager (15 April 2015)

I'm not too sure if this should be here, but I didn't know where to put it!

I have a 4 year old and a 16 year old Welsh sec B. The older horse (Petal) used to get on well with the 4 year old (Posy) but since I've started schooling both things have turned sour between them. Petal always has her ears flat back whenever she sees Posy, and she always threatens to kick, (however if I'm in the field she would do anything) and I'm wondering if Petal is jealous that she's not the only one getting attention? I treat them both equally, and I've been told that when I'm not around they graze next to each other and groom each other too! 

Is there any way to get them to see eye to eye? I don't want them to get any injuries form it!


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## SuperH (15 April 2015)

Is she in season?  My two mares usually get on well but a couple of weeks ago they had quite a falling out as one was in season.


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## BVoyager (15 April 2015)

SuperH said:



			Is she in season?  My two mares usually get on well but a couple of weeks ago they had quite a falling out as one was in season.
		
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No she isn't in season, but when she is her bad behavior does worsen, but not by much.


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## SpringArising (15 April 2015)

BVoyager said:



			I'm wondering if Petal is jealous that she's not the only one getting attention? I treat them both equally,
		
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Horses don't really think like that & you're anthropomorphising yours at the moment - if I was an outsider, I'd think you were talking about children from the above quote. 

Horses don't stand in the field and think 'Eurgh. I wish I had a mane like Coco's' or 'I wish BVoyager was riding me right now', because that's not how their minds work. 

They live in the moment - they don't look back and feel resentment or look towards the future and think 'I hope she gets me out next time!' etc.

Things have most likely changed because you've slightly upset the dynamics of the herd by taking one of them out frequently.


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## applecart14 (15 April 2015)

SpringArising said:



			Horses don't stand in the field and think 'Eurgh. I wish I had a mane like Coco's' or 'I wish BVoyager was riding me right now', because that's not how their minds work. 

They live in the moment - they don't look back and feel resentment or look towards the future and think 'I hope she gets me out next time!' etc.

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Agree - they don't think like that.  But I think it more likely that one may be resentful because it knows that when it is left in the field and the other is ridden it will not receive anything, whereas the one being ridden will.  Although the 'taking out of field and ridden' scenario happens to both horses, you clearly have one horse who is feeling angry that it has not been 'picked'. No doubt this horse has a totally different outlook and nature to the other one and is more sensitive.


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## Pearlsasinger (15 April 2015)

Well actually none of us know what horses think/feel we can only surmise and theorise from watching their behaviour.  I have certainly known horses whose behaviour could be interpreted as jealousy and others who could be said to bear a grudge after a fight.  
However, could it be that when you are around, Petal is telling Posy to keep away because she thinks there is food on offer, either directly from you, or when you take one of them inside?  TBH it is perfectly normal behaviour for one horse to be the boss in the field and to dictate the behaviour of the companion/s to a degree.  So long as these two are not fighting when you are not there, I wouldn't worry about it too much.  Is there something about your behaviour that you could change to stop this? E.g. not taking food into the field (if you do).  For your safety and that of the horses, I would take them both  out of the field to do jobs such as poo-picking.


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## Barnacle (15 April 2015)

One thing I've learned from researching animal behaviour - and you'll find this too if you read recent papers on everything from fish to chimpanzees - is that we shouldn't underestimate the range of cognitive capabilities other animals have. 

Saying that, there is absolutely no current evidence to support the idea that horses experience jealousy - an upset herd dynamic or a power struggle to get to food is much more likely. All the latest evidence also suggests hierarchies in horses are related to age. So it's natural that the older horse is the one acting up. 

My suspicion is that the older horse was familiar with the young one as part of her context when returning to the paddock. Whereas now she regularly gets some alone time, not "working alone time", but real free alone time. This might make her less tolerant of the youngster "invading" her space. 

Let me offer an analogy. It's a bit like having parents over... You live with them as a child. You leave home to go to school but when you come back home you know your parents are there and it's just part of being home. Then you move out. It's ok if your parents visit from time to time, but now you've associated your home context with generally being free, having them over can get a bit tiresome after a time. I think your older mare is just experiencing something similar - a vague annoyance at the youngster "intruding" on her peace. 

I think that if you watch them for a while in their field, even with you there, they'll stop doing it. I doubt you're really influencing them except that you encourage them into each other's space one way or another (e.g. if you call them over, feed them, take one out and bring her back in later etc) and hence trigger the reaction.


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## BVoyager (16 April 2015)

Thank you to everyone who has replied! 
Barnacle you have explained it really well  
Pearlsasinger that's exactly what I meant; I couldn't see any other way to describe it apart form jealousy! I'll take the advice onboard- I never bring treats into the field, but the public do have access to the field so perhaps they are getting fed treats by them? 
SpringArising and applecart14 : As I said just now, I couldn't describe it in any other way! I've never understood the concept of human emotion vs horse emotion (But I am reading up on it!) It could also be down to an upset in their routine, as Posy is 4 she has only recently started work? 

Again thanks everyone for their input!


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## applecart14 (16 April 2015)

BVoyager said:



			! I've never understood the concept of human emotion vs horse emotion (But I am reading up on it!) 
Again thanks everyone for their input! 

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If you are interesting in how horses communicate their feelings to humans then can I recommend this book to you.  Fantastic reading material http://www.amazon.co.uk/Horses-Talking-healing-messages-horses/dp/1844131092/ref=asap_bc?ie=UTF8
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Healing-Horses-Margrit-Coates/dp/0712601384/ref=asap_bc?ie=UTF8

I can't remember which one it was that my other half bought me, sadly I lent it to someone and never had it returned.  But the book I read was brilliant.


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## BVoyager (16 April 2015)

applecart14 said:



			If you are interesting in how horses communicate their feelings to humans then can I recommend this book to you.  Fantastic reading material http://www.amazon.co.uk/Horses-Talking-healing-messages-horses/dp/1844131092/ref=asap_bc?ie=UTF8
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Healing-Horses-Margrit-Coates/dp/0712601384/ref=asap_bc?ie=UTF8

I can't remember which one it was that my other half bought me, sadly I lent it to someone and never had it returned.  But the book I read was brilliant.
		
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Wow thank you for the recommendation! I'll be sure to get it!


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## gnubee (17 April 2015)

You say you treat then equally, but you don't have two equal horses. You have a boss horse and a not boss horse. If you put a feed bucket between them you will probably find that the not boss lets the other at it first. If you feed your boss horse first and treat it favourably in other ways, you will probably find that the issues stop. My 2 are fine together mostly because we always treat boss horse as the boss. When we have visitors though, they tend to give not boss treats first because she will walk right up to them, but this usually then causes her to get aggressively chased off by the boss  go to boss first and there are fewer issues. Don't let your boss horse bully you by any means, but to make life easier for your not boss horse, try to respect their herd structure.


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## flirtygerty (18 April 2015)

I have an 11 yr old trotter x gelding, had him five yrs now, dominant, ears back, head snaking, chasing off the others, ex brood mare, woosy TB and young cob, all normal horse behaviour, but when he displays obvious jealousy towards people, it makes you think, my Oh and I were hacking out side by side holding hands, (soppy I know) my OH commented on my lads reaction, ears flat back, grumpy face, we stopped holding hands, boyo's ears went forward, tried the same hack a few days later with my daughter, same horses, same route, held hands with my daughter, no reaction at all, his ears were pricked, enjoying the hack,  I started taking notice of his behaviour in the field, I would always give him a rub along with the others, whoever came to me first, normally the cob, got the first rub, my lad would get very aggressive and chase off the others, being nasty doing it, he wanted my full attention, I had to chase him off without a rub and make a fuss of one of the others, for about a month before he got the idea, I hated doing it, but he was almost possesive about me, as if he owned me, not the other way round, most of mine know I am in charge, the exception being my WB mare, who regulary tries to take the P, but she's in for a shock in the very near future


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## flirtygerty (8 May 2015)

SpringArising said:



			Horses don't really think like that & you're anthropomorphising yours at the moment - if I was an outsider, I'd think you were talking about children from the above quote. 

Horses don't stand in the field and think 'Eurgh. I wish I had a mane like Coco's' or 'I wish BVoyager was riding me right now', because that's not how their minds work. 

They live in the moment - they don't look back and feel resentment or look towards the future and think 'I hope she gets me out next time!' etc.

Things have most likely changed because you've slightly upset the dynamics of the herd by taking one of them out frequently.
		
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I would disagree with this, my trotterX gelding gets very jealous if I give attention to anything else, even my Oh and it was my OH that pointed it out one day when we were out hacking together holding hands, my lad had his grumpy face on, ears flat back, we stopped holding hands and his ears pricked up, did the same ride with my daughter, same route, same horses, no reaction to hand holding, in the barn or field my lad would chase off the others, I literally had to chase him off and make a fuss of the others and four years later, I still have to make sure he knows who is in charge, I love the bones of my trotterx and it kills me to send him away, but it keeps the others safe from kicks or bites
I don't always ride him, the young cob gets most of my time, but I do tell my lad daily how gorgeous he is


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## SpringArising (8 May 2015)

flirtygerty said:



			in the barn or field my lad would chase off the others
		
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He's being dominant here, not jealous. Dominance between horses is very common, jealous thoughts aren't.




			my lad had his grumpy face on, ears flat back, we stopped holding hands and his ears pricked up, did the same ride with my daughter, same route, same horses, no reaction to hand holding
		
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There's a million and one reasons why he could have had his ears back. Horses put their ears back all the time - in the field, in the stable, when ridden, etc. etc. I really find it very hard to believe that your horse would be plodding along thinking 'Jeez. I wish I was holding FlirtyGerty's hand right now!'.

Sorry, call me sceptic but I just don't believe we can flatter ourselves with horses like that - no matter how nice it would be.


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## flirtygerty (8 May 2015)

I promise you, I don't flatter myself, I have a bond with this horse, as I do with my TB, he often puts his head over my shoulder for a cuddle, or hides behind me when my trotter x is being a bully, just this week my Oh said he wouldn't get on my trotterx, not ridden since last year, I wouldn't hesitate to ride him, because he looks after me, he is a forward going horse, but he adapts to his rider, if they are novices he takes care of them, if they think they can ride, he tests them, he is my horse of a lifetime and it's not just me that sees the relationship we have, I treat him as I would a child, get tough when needed, give lots of affection daily
I know my animals, be it dogs, cats, chickens or horses and treat them accordingly


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