# Crufts- a step in the right direction for health?



## Aru (8 March 2012)

Bulldog and Pekingese fail Crufts vet checks
"No dog representing the Pekingese and Bulldog breeds will compete in Thursday evening&#8217;s Best in Group competitions at Crufts after they failed the new veterinary checks that have been introduced to the show.

The Best of Breed award was not given to Pekingese, Palacegarden Bianca, or Bulldog, Mellowmood One In A Million, following their veterinary checks, which were carried out by an independent veterinary surgeon. This means that the dogs will not be allowed to continue into the Toy or Utility Best in Group competitions respectively.

The Kennel Club has introduced veterinary checks for the Best of Breed winners at all Kennel Club licensed General and Group Championship Dog Shows from Crufts 2012 onwards, in 15 designated high profile breeds. This measure was introduced to ensure that Best of Breed awards are not given to any dogs that show visible signs of problems due to conditions that affect their health or welfare.

The fifteen high profile breeds are as follows: Basset Hound, Bloodhound, Bulldog, Chow Chow, Clumber Spaniel, Dogue De Bordeaux, German Shepherd Dog, Mastiff, Neapolitan Mastiff, Pekingese, Shar Pei, St Bernard, French Bulldog, Pug and Chinese Crested.

Caroline Kisko, Kennel Club Secretary, said: &#8220;We are determined to ensure that the show ring is a positive force for change and that we help to move breeds forward by only rewarding the healthiest examples of a breed.

&#8220;The veterinary checks were introduced to ensure that dogs with exaggerated features do not win prizes. The independent veterinary surgeon decided that the Pekingese and Bulldog should not pass their checks and therefore they did not receive their Best of Breed awards and will not be representing their breeds in the remainder of the competition.&#8221;
http://www.crufts.org.uk/news/bulldog-and-pekingese-fail-crufts-vet-checks

Have to admit I read this and was absolutely delighted
!I feel bad for the breeders involved who got their dogs to this level to face such dissappointment.....

but having watched bulldogs, almost all of them entire dogs intended for future breeding, go under the operations to fix their breathing problems and some of them die in-spite of intensive and full time monitoring and care.... I am Absolutely delighted to see the breeds highlighted as the not healthy creatures that they are.

 Perhaps finally the judges will start prioritising dogs who can actually breath.

Who do not end up waking up with after operations and not wanting to spit out their Endotracheal tubes as its the first time in their lives they could breath properly, who do not snore and gasp as they sleep because their facial anatomy,which has the same features as a normal non exaggerated skulled canine, is scrunched up into a flat face and is obstructing their windpipes...who have nostrils that are not slits that need to be cut open to allow in air, that have tracheas of a normal size to allow for proper air exchange.

Ah I am ranting now arent I?...but ya im happy to hear that times are changing, that steps in the right direction seem to have been taken.
What do ye think on here though?will this sort of thing make a difference to the breed? Or do you think people will still breed for the look?regardless of the health of the animal...


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## MurphysMinder (8 March 2012)

I think it was quite predictable that those 2 breeds wouldn't go through.  It was highly unlikely there was going to be a dog in those breeds at Crufts which was not far too short in the muzzle to pass a vet check.  There was talk in the dog press of the possibility of people taking legal action against the vets involved if a previously successful dog was not allowed to go through, think that is unlikely to happen but I can understand why not many vets were keen to volunteer for the job.
Obviously I am biased as GSDs are my own breed but I do think that the health check on GSDs is going to be a different matter, the vet is going to be looking for unsound hocks I presume, whilst I totally agree that a dog with loose hocks shouldn't be BOB it is not imho indicative of a "health issue", e.g. hip dysplasia.  The bitch I had with atrocious hips was as sound as a bell both in front and behind, even at 12 years old.


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## cefyl (8 March 2012)

Says it all really about the imcompetance of judges!  Really if they need a vet to DQ the BOB's, then the judge who put them there is not fit to judge.


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## splashgirl45 (8 March 2012)

i was pleasantly surprised that finally something positive is being done regarding something as basic as being able to breathe....howeveri think it will take a very long time to make a difference, still its progress


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## MurphysMinder (8 March 2012)

It is going to take a very long time, breeders have been breeding for certain characteristics for years, and judges have been putting such dogs to the top.  I do have some sympathy for the judges of the 2 breeds (so far) disqualified, I do wonder if there were dogs there who would have met the checks the vets were doing, and a judge cannot really withhold BoB when they have a class full of Champions, those changes cannot just happen overnight, or even over a couple of generations.


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## Aru (8 March 2012)

Ah but did other brachycephalic dogs did get through?
If they did then there must have been something more distinctive about the two dogs of those breeds then just a short muzzle.Other short faced dogs can get the same type of breathing issues as bulldogs,its down as a brachycephalic syndrome so they are not alone in the issue there.
I do hope its not just a publicity stunt to appease the media...

As you said loose hocks wouldn't be a BOB anyway you would hope that it wouldn't be an issue....and they would test on a surface that the dog could show off its gait properly!        Id imagine or at least hope that whichever vet was doing the final call had enough sense to know what issues can or cannot be raised in a physical exam!

Loose hocks is only a vague sign of possible hip issues in young dogs  its not a definite sign at all...just an orange warning light in some dogs that maybe something isn't right.That an xray or more tests might not be a bad idea.

Sad to hear that people were threatening to sue a vet who raised an issue with the health of dogs being shown. You would hope that showing people would be more keen to show the world that their dogs do not have the issues that the breeds are prone to! that they are heathy dogs,and that they were not trying to brush aside serious health issues away by saying its just normal for that breed... but I guess not

I know there would be a worry that they were just being sacrificed again to applease the media and publicity storm around crufts........BUT if they had nothing to worry about then why threaten to sue? In some cases I think its time that awareness was raised about just how unhealthy the show champions can be....looks are not everything.

But I guess change isn't always appreciated as a good thing. Especially when a lot of money time and effort has been involved in the situation.


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## MurphysMinder (8 March 2012)

Well the pug looked to be struggling in the group, but apart from that everything else I saw looked okay.
I actually said a dog with loose hocks shouldn't be BOB, didn't say it doesn't happen,  you probably would struggle to find somewhere in Crufts to move a GSD properly to be honest, unless you went outside, but hopefully it won't be an issue.  My point was that loose hocks are not by any means a sign of bad hips, particularly in a young dog as they can muscle up as they mature, so not sure what the vet will be looking for in GSDs when carrying out the health check.
It wasn't so much that specific people were threatening to sue, more that the point was raised that it was a possibility.  The majority of breeders of every breed do only want the best for their breed, but sometimes they can be a bit blinkered I think.


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## Aru (8 March 2012)

cefyl said:



			Says it all really about the imcompetance of judges!  Really if they need a vet to DQ the BOB's, then the judge who put them there is not fit to judge.
		
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In fairness to the judges they do judge a lot on the looks and movement of the dog.Not on how it functions as a working body .And dogs can fit the breed profile beautifully....but then turn out to have other issues that should stop it from being healthy. Most judges aren't vets they cant be expected to be able to pick up on all the healthy issues of the breeds.... perhaps more of a push towards common sense is needed...but if your judging bulldogs how do you decide if they are healthy or not? Most will show the hallmarks of Brachocepahlic syndrome....and the ones that dont are probably not matching the breed standard as well as those that do!

A cavalier could be perfect in terms of the breed standard but still have a disease like Syringohydromyelia....just not have it manifested.
 Going by looks alone will not help because its the distinctive looks of the breed that caused the disease to be bred in in the first place. Ive meet gorgeous little cavis who were just confirmed as having that disease by mri....to look at they seemed perfectly normal. Gorgeous little dogs if im perfectly honest. Cavis are in general lovely little dogs. But thats a disease that can only be confirmed in or out by mri.high suspicion on the clinical signs but they are not definite proof of the disease....if they want to eradicate it from the breed then its testing needs to be done on breeding dogs. Judges aren't solely responsible for that breed issue.Breeders need to take responsibility as well.

You cannot expect a judge to know as much about each and every breed they judge at from a veterinary prospective.....Even vets have issues with knowing all breed specific issues!


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## cefyl (8 March 2012)

Aru - when a judge is assigned a Crufts appointment this is the highest accolade of their judging career.  They SHOULD be 100% sure of the breed standard of the breed they are judging and therefore what is was bred for in the first place.  After all the KC mantra is "fit for purpose".


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## MurphysMinder (8 March 2012)

You are right of course Cefyl, but the whole point is for many years the dogs that have been disqualified were more than likely considered to be prime examples of the breed standard.


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## Aru (8 March 2012)

cefyl said:



			Aru - when a judge is assigned a Crufts appointment this is the highest accolade of their judging career.  They SHOULD be 100% sure of the breed standard of the breed they are judging and therefore what is was bred for in the first place.  After all the KC mantra is "fit for purpose".
		
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There is that.
But in an animal like a English Bulldog, A pekinese, a pug...what is purpose?Just a musing...not a real question.

The breed standard is open to interpretation.Otherwise there wouldn't be so much of a change between how dogs looked 50 years ago compared to now.Its exaggerating the very standards of the breed that caused the issues that are seen today to be there.

Thought I completely agree with you that they should be expected to chose fit healthy dogs as close to the standard as is possible...but I do have pity for the judges in this case as well....i would hazard a guess that  there will not have been enough changes in some of the breeds for them to have passed today no matter which dog was chosen from the countries champions...because the current accepted breed standard for dogs such as the Bulldog will struggle to produce consistently healthy dogs.

Its the exaggerated standard that is causing the issue and up until now judges were choosing the dogs by looks and gait....hopefully today will be an overall change for the better in how dogs will be picked as ideal with health being the focus.

 But I dont know how breeds like the bulldogs in their current look will survive in the showring?
And if the breeders of these dogs will want the changes that are being pushed upon them...If they did would they not be implementing them themselves already....how did it get to the stage that their champion dogs were deemed unfit?


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## EAST KENT (8 March 2012)

Speaking as someone who has judged Crufts twice I am not so sure a judge should be obliged to assess veterinary conditions.In my breeds..bull terriers and mini bull terriers..the main defect in the bigger ones would be patella luxation.A few years ago a judge at Crufts put for BOB a bitch slipping it`s stifle badly..now I wanted The Bull Terrier Club  ..was on the Committee then..to object.Their answer? "are you a vet..you`d need top be a vet to see that".No,in a smooth coated breed it is extremely obvious to see a patella slip out of place.
  My answer( how not to gain friends) was that I found that answer incredibly worrying coming as it  does from a group of championship judges of the breed.
   I cannot wait to hear just what  the "independent vet" found that was so appalling about those two breeds ,given they conform to the present KC Breed Standard. 
 So you see,if you are the judge you cannot really win can you? Put up typey dogs..ignore obvious faults and defects =keep your nose clean in the breed circles...or,   do as that brilliant Cav Health Officer did ,blow the whistle,get villified and banned by the breed club.   I myself am more leaning toward that lady than the breed club,very very concious of breeding healthy long lived bullies ,no birth defects.However,fact,the top winning lines can have  sometimes  only a fifty percent survival in newborns due to cleft palates/hare lips and open skulls,they  get an extreme "banana" head at a big price. Those lines also have juvenile kidney failure and heart disease ..all well swept under the carpet.So,for my breedings ,I avoid like the plague those lines....does`nt make friends you know!


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## MurphysMinder (8 March 2012)

That is what I was trying to say Aru, there hasn't been time for changes in some of the breeds, it is going to take several generations, always providing breeders want to change.  
As to purpose, well a bulldog was bred to bait bulls, and the design of the jaw and muzzle was apparently to enable them to hang on to the bulls nose, not really a purpose they need to be fit for any more.


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## Aru (8 March 2012)

MurphysMinder said:



			That is what I was trying to say Aru, there hasn't been time for changes in some of the breeds, it is going to take several generations, always providing breeders want to change.  
As to purpose, well a bulldog was bred to bait bulls, and the design of the jaw and muzzle was apparently to enable them to hang on to the bulls nose, not really a purpose they need to be fit for any more.

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Reread your post and realised I was practically parroting your alright! 

Ya I couldn't see imagine any bulldog I have ever met being able to survive an encounter with a bull! they wouldn't be able to hang on...they tend to have issues breathing through their noses!


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## CorvusCorax (8 March 2012)

Clokellys Lagos, the GSD BoB from a few years ago was fully health tested and working qualified (including an AD - a 12m endurance test off a bike) and was absolutely pilloried and his owner humiliated despite going through the international system and testing and titling her dog (required for showing in Germany, NOT here).

As I posted last week, the 5 month old GSD puppy owned by a pensioner, who was described as having a 'deformity of the hindquarters' by the now KC chairman at Crufts and was asked to leave during the same year, has since received a hip score totalling under 5 and has scored 0.03% under the Penn Hip scheme and clear elbows and is clearing scale jumps with ease.
As can be expected, this responsible breeder who health tests and who used to work her dogs at working trials, wants nothing more to to with the KC.
The now-chairman was not judging, he was just walking around the show and singled this pup out of a KCGC exhibition and humiliated the elderly owner in front of people.
And he was wrong.


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## Aru (8 March 2012)

EAST KENT said:



			Speaking as someone who has judged Crufts twice I am not so sure a judge should be obliged to assess veterinary conditions.In my breeds..bull terriers and mini bull terriers..the main defect in the bigger ones would be patella luxation.A few years ago a judge at Crufts put for BOB a bitch slipping it`s stifle badly..now I wanted The Bull Terrier Club  ..was on the Committee then..to object.Their answer? "are you a vet..you`d need top be a vet to see that".No,in a smooth coated breed it is extremely obvious to see a patella slip out of place.
  My answer( how not to gain friends) was that I found that answer incredibly worrying coming as it  does from a group of championship judges of the breed.
   I cannot wait to hear just what  the "independent vet" found that was so appalling about those two breeds ,given they conform to the present KC Breed Standard. 
 So you see,if you are the judge you cannot really win can you? Put up typey dogs..ignore obvious faults and defects =keep your nose clean in the breed circles...or,   do as that brilliant Cav Health Officer did ,blow the whistle,get villified and banned by the breed club.   I myself am more leaning toward that lady than the breed club,very very concious of breeding healthy long lived bullies ,no birth defects.However,fact,the top winning lines can have  sometimes  only a fifty percent survival in newborns due to cleft palates/hare lips and open skulls,they  get an extreme "banana" head at a big price. Those lines also have juvenile kidney failure and heart disease ..all well swept under the carpet.So,for my breedings ,I avoid like the plague those lines....does`nt make friends you know!
		
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Wow I think your post just confirms that breeder/judges do not in some cases want to see the issues in front of their faces. That poor whistleblower i didnt realise they got thrown out of the breed club 
As for the luxation...christ im pissed on your behalf
Patella luxation does not need a vet to spot it!Diagnose sure but anyone can spot it if they know what they are looking for!to ignore it in a show dog...sigh...
I agree with the idea that judges of the shows having a conflict of interest(if that is the right phrase?) when it comes to judging on vet conditions though. If they are right they would be told they are not a vet and cannot base the judgement on that!if they are wrong then more giving out! I think your right...a judge would find it very hard to win.
The politics of the situation means they need an independent person! Though Im sure it will swing round to many of the breeders disliking the vets!Then again to a certain extend thats already true in a lot of cases 

If I was to take a guess at what caused those dogs to be deemed unfit I would take a  guess it is the BUAS syndrome.Brachycephalic Upper Airway Syndrome

The small little nostrils that dont take in enough airflow and collapse as the dog trys to use them would be common enough plus there a variety of issues within the mouth and heading down to the into the lungs that cause the dogs to have difficulty breathing,but those are more difficult to see on a basic clinical exam...But if they chose to look for those in these type of dogs that were panting,seeming to have issues breathing.....all they would have to do is close the dogs mouth and see if it can actually use its nose or not for regular breathing....its not unusual in the above breeds to have issues like stenotic nares and not be able to take in enough oxegen by nose.....then again it could have been another whole ream of issues...


These are decent links explaining BUAS for anyones whos interested...as im not sure if my ramblings are explaining the issues clearly or concisely
this ones quite vet language heavy 
http://www.acvs.org/AnimalOwners/HealthConditions/SmallAnimalTopics/BrachycephalicSyndrome/
This one a bit more user friendly
http://www.petmd.com/dog/conditions/respiratory/c_multi_brachycephalic_airway_syndrome#.T1kyVHJNsug


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## Aru (8 March 2012)

CaveCanem said:



			Clokellys Lagos, the GSD BoB from a few years ago was fully health tested and working qualified (including an AD - a 12m endurance test off a bike) and was absolutely pilloried and his owner humiliated despite going through the international system and testing and titling her dog (required for showing in Germany, NOT here).

As I posted last week, the 5 month old GSD puppy owned by a pensioner, who was described as having a 'deformity of the hindquarters' by the now KC chairman at Crufts and was asked to leave during the same year, has since received a hip score totalling under 5 and has scored 0.03% under the Penn Hip scheme and clear elbows and is clearing scale jumps with ease.
As can be expected, this responsible breeder who health tests and who used to work her dogs at working trials, wants nothing more to to with the KC.
The now-chairman was not judging, he was just walking around the show and singled this pup out of a KCGC exhibition and humiliated the elderly owner in front of people.
And he was wrong.
		
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The dog who won the BoB did have an odd gait in the ring.Was it the carpet that was the issue in the end..or am i confusing him with a different animal?....Great to hear that he is so very fit for purpose though!
Shame that the media didn't chose to highlight that whenever people were giving out about the GSD breed!


That second story....poor man he must have been so annoyed!


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## CorvusCorax (8 March 2012)

Lagos was 2010. Elmo last year (who has won a number of BIS titles under both foreign/German breed judges and English all-rounders, who normally never put up an international-style GSD). Elmo won the pastoral group last year AND is current British Sieger (IE he had to do a courage test/bitework and owners had to present his hip/elbow paperwork before he was even able to enter the ring, the working class which he won also includes a gun test and offlead gaiting, this show is run under international rules).
But hey, some people think holding shows like that is mad/bad/wrong....

Most GSDs trained to gait out in front will look odd on a green carpet. The power comes from behind (like a Beemer ) they push off from their hindquarters.

She's a she


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## blackcob (8 March 2012)

If you look at the breed judging videos from Westminster the other week even one of the huskies manages to fall over on the carpet. Y'know, a dog bred to work on slippery ice and snow.


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## Aru (8 March 2012)

Bows down to Cavecanems much greater knowledge of the show GSD's 
 I think it might have been Elmo I was thinking of....not sure really.. I just remember thinking ah the people are going to give out stink about that dogs gait!

Blackcob your husky mention made me laugh at loud...really?


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## CorvusCorax (8 March 2012)

Most other people call me OCD/a geek


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## Aru (8 March 2012)

We all have our obsessions 

If I ever decide to get a GSD pup I know who I'l be harassing to find out more on the breed and lines to go for


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## Princecharming (8 March 2012)

Just to put this right before it gets out of hand. I had my Bulldog yearling at Crufts today. And the BOB is a bitch called Ch Mellowmood one in a million aka Jenny. Jenny holds 23 CC's she is one fit and healthy Bulldog, she makes no noise breathing even in the hottest weather whilst being moved and moved, she moves with ease, has no conformation issues at all, hence the reason that many many champ judges have awarded her BOB per and over and over. Today a vet shined a torch in one of Jenny's eyes and saw a slight flaw, dispite Jenny passing many vigorous heath checks in the past. Of Late we have struggled to fight our corner against peo
Le who do not wish to learn, my Bully lives at the stables, running, jumping (even over show jumps) he comes to events with me, I never have any health issues with him whatsoever. If a Bulldog is bred right it is bred right, like any other animal or breed the bad breeders give us a bad name hence the "high profile breed" we feel that whichever bulldog had won BOB today would not have gone through because we are getting such a raw deal. If any of you wish on Facebook there is a group against pedigree breed bashing, on there you can access many photo's and video's of fit and healthy show bulldogs running, swimming, jumping like any other dog. 

Please do not judge our lovely breed until you have studied it.


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## CorvusCorax (8 March 2012)

Aru said:



			We all have our obsessions 

If I ever decide to get a GSD pup I know who I'l be harassing to find out more on the breed and lines to go for 

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Oh no, I just HATE looking into pedigrees and lines   


Interesting points Princecharming, thanks for sharing, when it was my breed in the firing line it was like peeing in the wind sometimes


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## MurphysMinder (9 March 2012)

Thanks for that prince charming. I think you are probably right that any bulldog would have struggled to go through with all the attention recently  Glad to hear your lad lives a normal happy life.


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## MurphysMinder (9 March 2012)

And with regard to that green carpet, it may have improved now but when I competed in agility at crufts my Gsd actually fell over on a turn one year, and really struggled on several occasions .


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## Cinnamontoast (9 March 2012)

I thik it needs something as high profile as Crufts to get the ball rolling properly on this. I think _*some*_ breeders need to be made aware that breeding dogs that subsequently need operations to be able to breathe etc is not acceptable. Perhaps vet history could also be considered so a Champion who needed corrective surgery can also be eliminated? 

As someone said, fit for purpose does not apply to 'bull' breeds in that they no longer need to fight bulls  so why are they bred to hang on to a nose still? A vrai dire, the features are exaggerated and don't need to be so squashed in _*some*_ examples of the breed.


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## Alec Swan (9 March 2012)

I'll admit to having a rather jaundiced view of the show bench,  and no interest in showing dogs, though I accept that others do.

Would it be so difficult to insist that any dog going into the show ring is _Licensed_,  for want of a better word?  The licence being in the form of a health certificate.  Independent veterinary inspection,  at a set time,  or stages through a dog's life,  would weed out those with unnatural or life shortening deformities.

There'd be the odd row or two,  during the early days,  but eventually breeders would accept that there would be no point in offering those dogs up for inspection,  which were likely to fail,  and eventually there'd be the realisation that there'd be little point in breeding them.

Now then,  to counter the above statement,  and if we consider those breeds which have specific difficulties in breathing,  or in the case of Bloodhounds and Clumbers,  for instance,  the appalling eye problems,  to only breed from those dogs which are able to live a normal life,  there would be a massive reduction in the available gene pool,  and in the cases of many breeds,  an already desperate situation would be made worse.

I suspect that the answer would be to re-define those breeds at risk,  by using other and related breeds to widen the gene pool,  and if needs be,  the breed societies could look again at the standards which they set.  Considering the Clumber Spaniel,  for instance,  an accepted introduction of perhaps Springer Spaniel,  with a subsequent breeding out of the Springer influence, may well be a way forward.  How anyone would correct the deformities from Pekes,  Bulldogs or Pugs,  would be another question though!! 

I'm wondering what others think,  and would welcome their views.

How pleased I am to read that there are now those who show GSDs,  which need to demonstrate a fit-for-purpose approach to life,  and clear health checks,  before they are qualified to be shown.  Hardly a way forward for the toy and companion breeds,  but for those dogs which are still expected to be of working use to man,  I applaud their owners.

Alec.


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## Naryafluffy (9 March 2012)

Princecharming said:



			Just to put this right before it gets out of hand. I had my Bulldog yearling at Crufts today. And the BOB is a bitch called Ch Mellowmood one in a million aka Jenny. Jenny holds 23 CC's she is one fit and healthy Bulldog, she makes no noise breathing even in the hottest weather whilst being moved and moved, she moves with ease, has no conformation issues at all, hence the reason that many many champ judges have awarded her BOB per and over and over. Today a vet shined a torch in one of Jenny's eyes and saw a slight flaw, dispite Jenny passing many vigorous heath checks in the past. Of Late we have struggled to fight our corner against peo
Le who do not wish to learn, my Bully lives at the stables, running, jumping (even over show jumps) he comes to events with me, I never have any health issues with him whatsoever. If a Bulldog is bred right it is bred right, like any other animal or breed the bad breeders give us a bad name hence the "high profile breed" we feel that whichever bulldog had won BOB today would not have gone through because we are getting such a raw deal. If any of you wish on Facebook there is a group against pedigree breed bashing, on there you can access many photo's and video's of fit and healthy show bulldogs running, swimming, jumping like any other dog. 

Please do not judge our lovely breed until you have studied it.
		
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This is curiosity, I don't show dogs so not really aware of the ins and outs, but from this is doesn't sound as if this is something a judge could know about when judging and looking at the download on the KC sight the vet should be looking for Externally visible eye diease, surely if they are using a torch this is more than externally visible?
Will the KC make public what the vet failed the dog on so that othe breeders are aware?
Is it because the definition make need clarification?
Bulldog: The breed is prone to respiratory distress.  Obesity may also be noted and may 
contribute to signs of respiratory unfitness.  N.B hyperthermia appears to be relatively 
common in this breed. 
o Ectropion or entropion are considered to be conformational defects that are 
disqualifying signs
o Damage (scarring or ulceration) to the cornea caused by e.g. facial folds, 
distichiasis, ectopic cilia, poor eyelid anatomy
o Respiratory difficulty due to soft palate or small (pinched) nostrils
o Dermatitis associated with facial wrinkles or at the tail root due to a tightly 
screwed tail 
o Hair loss or scarring from previous dermatitis
o Lameness 

As I said this is a question, I don't show and I own mutts that are in no way conformationally correct.


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## g16 (9 March 2012)

cinnamon toast- if a dog has undergone corrective or basically plastic surgery it is no longer allowed to compete. the owner is obliged to inform the kennel club. the kc are trying to encourage vets to tell them when they carry it out - i think there is something on the kc registration which allows them to do so. they are still allowed breed though.


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## ester (9 March 2012)

MurphysMinder said:



			And with regard to that green carpet, it may have improved now but when I competed in agility at crufts my Gsd actually fell over on a turn one year, and really struggled on several occasions .
		
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This might be a completely daft question but why do they use carpet!


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## misterjinglejay (9 March 2012)

I showed at crufts a few years ago, and yes, the carpets are a bit slippy - my samoyed, a breed designed for snow and ice, moved carefully on it.

Whilst I agree that the breed standards of certain breeds needs to change, the dogs health and wellbeing being paramount, what happens to the dogs that don't meet any new standard, or fit into a new breeding programme?

Will they end up in rescue centers, or even dumped? 

This, I feel is an issue that needs to be addressed before we start changing things too drastically.


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## s4sugar (9 March 2012)

Winning Clumber has been vet rejected; Wonder what was found wrong with this one?
http://www.dogsunit.com/index.php?o...id=740:r5-clumber-spaniel-females&Itemid=1937


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## Dobiegirl (9 March 2012)

Well according to another forum I was on they were all betting that the Clumber would fail also, not because there was anything wrong with it but the KC has to be seen to be doing the right thing after all Crufts is their show piece


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## CorvusCorax (9 March 2012)

Yeah a lot of the shep people are predicting that whoever wins BoB will get pulled, no matter how much testing and titling it might have.


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## s4sugar (9 March 2012)

I heard rumours yesterday that at least one per group would get bounced.


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## CorvusCorax (9 March 2012)

*sigh* that will be us then....I have never liked the idea of dogs of the calibre of Elmo and especially Zamp in that venue in the first place. JMO.


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## EAST KENT (9 March 2012)

The BOB Peke had a small blemish on it`s eye..possible brewing ulcer? The Bulldog also ,I`ve heard.Clumber..well I`ll find out ,have a good friend in those who also has a beautiful little red mini of mine..so I`ll get the full lowdown. Our bull terrier and mini bull terrier judge is all rounder ..Feffie Somerfield..so I doubt any exagerated "banana" heads will go up.Pity really,it would be fun to see what the vets made of that one! Surprisingly it does`nt affect the adult dog at all, just predisposes to birth defects that are fatal.
   I think the coverage  is great by the way..good old Clare,so sensible and erudite.Glad that appalling scottish git..the "comedy" act from last year is removed this year Hated him.


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## s4sugar (9 March 2012)

FS judged the Clumbers...


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## cremedemonthe (9 March 2012)

misterjay said:



			Whilst I agree that the breed standards of certain breeds needs to change, the dogs health and wellbeing being paramount, what happens to the dogs that don't meet any new standard, or fit into a new breeding programme?

*Will they end up in rescue centers, or even dumped? *

This, I feel is an issue that needs to be addressed before we start changing things too drastically.
		
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This is what I was thinking too, if they decide the dog's of no use where will it go?


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## ester (9 March 2012)

where do dogs go now that turn out not to make the grade for breeding or are no longer required for that purposed? I'd assume that responsible breeders (as given that they aare showing I would hope they were) would rehome them responsibly.


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## CorvusCorax (9 March 2012)

What happens to them now most likely - dogs who are too big, too small, off colour, soft ears, curly tails - go to pet homes. But right now - I don't think MORE litters and more experimentation is a good idea.


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## sprytzer (9 March 2012)

According to the KC and Crufts the vet inspection was to be a 'visual' inspection only, no 'aids' allowed.....therefore how did the vet get away with using a torch?  A torch would be classed as an 'aid' would it not?
Or have i read it all wrong?


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## Bosworth (9 March 2012)

In my opinion if it is not to breed standard it should then be neutered before being found a family home. Not rehomed entire so it can fall into an irresponsible breeders hands and be bred from again creating the problem.


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## ester (9 March 2012)

but east kent stated banned by the breed club, which is true, she never mentioned it was a committee decision


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## SusieT (9 March 2012)

Another name change grass-proof? Surprise surprise.
So CKCS are not excessively prone to disease? How can you give a dog a bad name about facts? Hiding the facts does not help the dog.


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## Dobiegirl (9 March 2012)

I heard the Bulldog had an old injury to his eye which everyone knew about.


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## ester (9 March 2012)

Grass_Proof said:



			East Kent it would be useful if you could get your facts right before posting on a public forum 

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Grass_Proof said:



			Where did I suggest that EK said it was a committee decision?  I was merely clarifying that it wasnt 

Obviously semantics then, said woman was not banned she was voted off the committee and was asked to leave the club....however if you prefer the emotive phraseology thats fine 

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Well you suggested that East Kent had her facts wrong, in fact  you are now suggesting she used the word banned instead of asked to leave as an inaccuracy. From which one presumes said lady could re-join the club if she wanted to (but presumably chooses not to). If she cannot rejoin it rather amounts to the same thing as banning.


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## Inthemud (9 March 2012)

Grass_Proof said:



			East Kent it would be useful if you could get your facts right before posting on a public forum   "That brilliant Cav Health Officer" was voted out of the CKCS club by club members (NOT the committee) after an extraordinary general meeting was demanded by club members who were concerned about the damage  she was doing to the breed by her approach to health issues in the breed.  

Members of the committee did not all feel that this was the right course of action, but the regulations governing the club mean that the members had to be listened to, and their actions were therefore acted upon.
		
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Whatever the subtleties of semantics, the way that lady was treated is a disgrace and her loss will be to the long term detriment of the breed.


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## SusieT (9 March 2012)

Easier to ignore the questions than face the truth. (And then hide behind a new name..)


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## Dobiegirl (9 March 2012)

For gods sake SusieT you are never happier unless you are mixing it, just let it drop.


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## EAST KENT (9 March 2012)

Inthemud said:



			Whatever the subtleties of semantics, the way that lady was treated is a disgrace and her loss will be to the long term detriment of the breed.
		
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   My point exactly.Until breed clubs face up honestly to problems,and not villify a Health Officer DOING HER JOB,the breed is the loser in the long run..oh and all the grieving pet owners of defective cavs. This counts for all breeds BTW,face it chin on,deal with it..had quite a few set backs over the forty years in my own lines..but,faced it and bred it out..THAT is the way of progress. Committees are an anathema..little people trying to be someone and trampling on anyone in their way.That lady was a star. In my opinion in cavs every one should be MRI`d and only clears bred from,it may be severe ..and it will take time..but it is the only way forward. And of course..start raising money for the AHT to do the work on the DNA of it,we did it in mini bull terriers..and so too can cavs.
   I would imagine "the members" wanted her out BTW because their nice little earner of churning out good sellers like cavs was threatened.We are quite forgetting the multiple heart diseases that breed can suffer and eye disease as well,the breed has a very very long road of honest breed assessment before it could be called healthy.Such a shame,a perfect first dog for most families too.


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## EAST KENT (9 March 2012)

Grass_Proof said:



			I said she was asked to leave.....she can rejoin if she wishes to do so...
		
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  And,as no doubt new applications are discussed at committee ,she would be refused!!


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## Alec Swan (11 March 2012)

Alec Swan said:



			I'll admit to having a rather jaundiced view of the show bench,..........
.....
I suspect that the answer would be to re-define those breeds *at risk,*  by using other and related breeds to widen the gene pool,  and if needs be,  the breed societies could look again at the standards which they set.  Considering the Clumber Spaniel,  for instance,  an accepted introduction of perhaps Springer Spaniel,  with a subsequent breeding out of the Springer influence, may well be a way forward.  How anyone would correct the deformities from Pekes,  Bulldogs or Pugs,  would be another question though!! _*That's a "for instance".*_

I'm wondering what others think,  and would welcome their views.

Alec.
		
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I would be saddened to hear that those who have opinions feel unable to express them.  Come on,  surely there are those with a voice.  There must be those who see the problem as I do,  surely.

Alec.


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## misterjinglejay (11 March 2012)

I agree, Alec, and there are some 'old style' bulldogs and pugs etc around, but you won't see them in the show ring, as they don't fit the dreaded breed standard!

Maybe they could be used to breed out the faults, but breeders won't do that until the standard is changed, and as I said earlier, although this needs to happen, it needs to be slow. The dogs that don't 'fit' would need to be dealt with, as I can see rescues filling up quickly


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## Tashza (11 March 2012)

Dog World (dog showing paper) link re clumber

http://www.dogworld.co.uk/product.p...ulldog_fail_high_profile_vet_checks_at_crufts

Enlarge of clumber report link (for those that want to jump straight to it)
http://www.dogworld.co.uk/shopimages/products/normal/mainsite/certificate.jpg

Hope they work


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## Custard Cream (11 March 2012)

It's been announced that a Dogue de Bordeaux collapsed outside the NEC yesterday, was attended by vets and taken to a nearby vet clinic were it was put down.


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## Dobiegirl (11 March 2012)

http://www.chazhound.com/forums/showthread.php?t=151756&page=3

The American Kennel Club may take longer to convince, post 28


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## s4sugar (11 March 2012)

How many people know what ectropion is or that the Newfie shows more haw than the Clumber?


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## MurphysMinder (11 March 2012)

Dobiegirl said:



http://www.chazhound.com/forums/showthread.php?t=151756&page=3

The American Kennel Club may take longer to convince, post 28
		
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That doesn't surprise me, many of the American "versions" of breeds are far more exaggerated than the UK ones.


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## Vizslak (11 March 2012)

Custard Cream said:



			It's been announced that a Dogue de Bordeaux collapsed outside the NEC yesterday, was attended by vets and taken to a nearby vet clinic were it was put down.
		
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 where was this announced?


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## Dobiegirl (11 March 2012)

Clare Balding announced it on More4 heres a link


http://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=10150667668134642&id=22448504641


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## Custard Cream (11 March 2012)

Also on the Crufts fb page. Laryngeal paralysis according to sources close to te owner.


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## Vizslak (12 March 2012)

I missed that somehow. How sad


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## Kaylum (12 March 2012)

I am afraid I was disappointed with the coverage.  Fine to highlight breeding issues etc. but we wanted to see the dogs not Claire rambling on about her dog (her hair needs something doing with it). There is so much to see there that the coverage was very badily edited.


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## RutlandH2O (12 March 2012)

Kaylum said:



			I am afraid I was disappointed with the coverage.  Fine to highlight breeding issues etc. but we wanted to see the dogs not Claire rambling on about her dog (her hair needs something doing with it). There is so much to see there that the coverage was very badily edited.
		
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I'm glad you said it first. I've been very disappointed, as well. Some of the camera work was dreadful. During BIS, the camera would focus on each dog for a second or two and then, as each dog gaited, the camera switched to the people in the stands. In the run-up to the Friends for Life award, it wasn't necessary to recap the video of each deserving pair, again. There were just too many time-fillers, when that time could have been better devoted to the dogs. 

Having said that, it certainly was a relief not having the goofy Scottish chap this year. And it was refreshing not being subjected to the typical coochy cooing the networks have displayed whenever dogs or cats are concerned. 

I don't know why the Mastiff was eliminated, but I was just putting some books away and found a stunning head study of a Mastiff from 1901. The breed really hasn't changed very much, and the heaviness of the skin and ears had the effect of pulling down the lower eyelid ever so slightly (think Clumber, Newfie).

As the title of this thread asks: I'm not so sure. Eliminating a lame, breathless, aggressive dog should occur during the breed judging. But how does any of this improve the bigger picture? Breeders producing generations of dogs affected with Epilepsy, HD, SAS, Elbow Dysplasia, eye anomalies (shall I go on?) won't be touched before the group. And, I'm not talking about the 15 at risk breeds. As far as I'm concerned, the dogs eliminated at Crufts 2012 were scapegoats in a PR stunt to garner public support for the Kennel Club. It's so sad and scandalous that members of that public will be the ones to pick up the pieces when the dogs they've purchased, in good faith from those breeders, require X-rays, surgery, lifetime medications, reduced lifespan, or even destruction.


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