# Dutch Factory Farmed Horses



## airedale (29 May 2007)

Quote from H&amp;H online article today

""It's a quick way of establishing a horse's year of birth. Some horses, like this one, are just given a letter relevant to the year of birth as foals are produced in great volume and naming them all may be impractical. "

HOW DISGUSTING that a horse is not even worthy of a name when foaled. !!!!!!!!
http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/horsecare/1370/121728.html

for those of you that have 'attacked' me for my sig - EAT YOUR WORDS 

and for those that think buying on the continent is so wonderful - just read that paragraph above about 6 times and think if a BRITISH breeder would be so callous as to not name a foal.....................

and then vote to buy british


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## burtie (29 May 2007)

Hi Airedale,

Altough I agree with you 100% on the way most european horses are produced and would always buy British for this reason, I would not give one hoot about wether or not the foal was named!


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## airedale (29 May 2007)

I can see where you are coming from - except when the foals are not named because they are being factory farmed - and not 'cos "it's called foalie 'cos I just call it that"

bit like the difference between having named smallholding poultry and Bernard Matthews....!!!


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## Maesfen (29 May 2007)

Have to agree with you wholeheartedly AD!

I hate the 'come in No 10, your time's up' mentality that seems to happen over there; I bet they don't watch each foal and know it's mannerisms, what it likes/doesn't and so on; how unlike its' sibling it is and things like that which breeders (on the whole) could bore you rigid with over here!  There's a pic of where Gina comes from on a website and it is a line of probably 20 or so youngsters tied up in a shed like cattle; not a nice way to bring up youngsters to my mind; they need their freedom, the same as children if they are to develop naturally into nice horses.


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## SirenaXVI (29 May 2007)

I agree with you Airedale, it really annoys me that british riders will not support British Breeders - same thing happens  with my chosen breed, unfortunately, until we support our own breeders we will never have a proper breeding programme in this country - and  by proper I do not mean factory farmed.


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## Paint it Lucky (29 May 2007)

This article confused me slightly as I have a dutch horse whose name starts with 'L' yet I was told he is only eight years old, according to the letter per year thing he'd be 16!  Is this right?  Do all the dutch warmbloods comply to this name starting with the letter of the year they were born in thing?  

Also are they really factory farmed?  Do you mean like how chickens are kept in small cages, are the horses kept in stables all the time?  Sorry to sound naive but I don't know much about this subject.  I have a friend from Holland who says the youngsters live out 24/7 or live in big indoor barns until ready to be backed.


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## airedale (29 May 2007)

they live in indoor barns

whilst the barns may be 'big' that means the size of the buildin - the space per horse isn't necessarily all that large..............

and they don't see the outside world and don't get to see grass - just the barn and bulk feeds - no individual feeds to suit the needs of the individual - barrow type feeds - if it suits OK if it doesn't - tough

not like chickens kept in cages - more like BernardMatthews where the birds are overcrowded in barns


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## Paint it Lucky (29 May 2007)

Thanks airedale now I know!  Are there any sites that show pictures of this?  Purely out of interest, my dutch horse was already over here when I bought him ina pretty sorry state, no one really knew much about his past though his reactions to some things suggest he's had a pretty hard time.  So always interesting to find out more about the sort of place he might have come from.


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## dieseldog (29 May 2007)

Maybe British breeders should take some advice from continetal breeders as they then may actually stay in business and make buying a british bred horse a viable option.

But whilst people insist on breeding from lame old rubbish and stallion owners continue putting their stallions to such horses, british bred horses are going to remain either inferior or way too expensive if they are actually half decent.


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## josephinebutter2 (29 May 2007)

Can I just say that not all horses bred on the continent are "factory farmed" and that not all horses in Britain are raised perfectly!

I know many a British breeder who doesn't name their foals - and many are just turned out in a field with no farriery attention or feed - even if they look emaciated - until they are ready to sell.


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## airedale (29 May 2007)

but a lot more british breeders take the trouble to grade their horses with breed societies or sports breeding societies where they get an independent assessment.

so yes - the british have taken on board some of the 'foreign' ideas that an independent assessment of both mares and stallions is beneficial to the progeny so long as the mare owner or stallion owner told their horse is not good doesn't carry on and breed, regardless

it's not just british breeders that can leave horses looking emaciated - there are a lot of british leisure horse owners that can do the same

personally I don't breed from any mare that hasn't been independently assessed by a professional and graded with a sports breeding society and nor do I use any stallion that hasn't himself been graded

the average 'pass rate' for stallion grading in the UK is about 50%

we CAN do the right thing over here and most competent breeders do. It is often but not always the amateur breeder that breeds from a mare 'cos she is unsound for whatever reason and cannot be ridden.

If the unsoundness is a result of a genuine accident and not from a predisposition due to poor conformation then that is OK and the mare can return to ridden work once the foal has been weaned.

Agreed that not all 'continental' horses are factory farmed, e.g. in respect of the iberian horses, but the northern european horses typically are

PSI International isn't rich for no reason....


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## magic104 (30 May 2007)

They do not all live in barns without turnout.  I think also you should visit some studs in this country.  There are plenty of studs here that keep their youngsters in barns in the winter does not mean the youngsters are never turned out.  Does a horse really care whether it has a name?  Dont think so, all they care about is having enough food, &amp; being comfortable, neither too hot or too cold.  Stop being so sentimental, this is their business &amp; it is nothing like chicken farms.  You will always get people who treat their horses badly, whether it be a stud or happy hacker.  I take it you have actually gone round the studs, because it does not sound like you have visited very many.


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## AndyPandy (30 May 2007)

I have to say that I agree with magic104 &amp; DieselDog. We are far too much of the "pet" mentality when it comes to breeding horses. Also, far too many people breed for the sake of it - they'll flick through a magazine, looking for a nice looking stallion with a low stud fee. It often seems like the British just want a cute foal to cuddle, rather than wanting to breed quality youngstock.

Yes, the continental methods are different, but they are consistently producing quality youngstock. Just have a think about how breeding/reproduction works:

Take a hyopthetical dressage stallion with excellent conformation, great paces, proven in international competition. This stallion clearly has some genetic advantage over other stallions out there, and this, combined with it's nurture/training has made it one of the best in the world. When sperm cells are made in this stallion's testes, there is a degree of chopping and changing of its genes, so every sperm cell will carry different genes. Some of them may be potentially excellent, some OK, some poor, but you hope that because the stallion has a genetic advantage, that more of his sperm cells will carry these good genes.

The same is true of a world class mare - not all of her eggs will carry the "excellent" genes - some will be poor. And some of them might not complement the stallion's sperm cell's genes.

Anyway, the point is, that if you breed a single foal in a year from an excellent stallion, your chances of producing a top quality foal are still small. It gives you a better chance that if you were using a conformationally poor stallion, but at the end of the day, the process of reproduction is still fairly random. To have a good chance of breeding an excellent foal, the more foals you produce in a year, the better. The only way of doing this, is through a large scale farming operation.

I very much doubt, that any of the top producers will mistreat their youngstock. They will have spent thousands of euros on the mare and stallion/semen, and will not want to see their investment wasted. If anything, they will want to protect it.

The youngstock do not care if they are named. They are born into the stabling/barns and don't know any different. They don't, as soon as they pop out, think: "this is unfair, I wish I was outside like those British horses, and that I had a name".

There are, of course, many unscrupulous breeders, all around the world, and if you go to any country, I'm sure you will be able to find a breeder who mistreats their animals. It doesn't mean that everyone using that system does the same thing.

If you want to breed for fun, then enjoy using cheap stallions, and the standard "British" method. If you want to be taken seriously as a producer of sport horses, and quality youngstock, then take a leaf out of the continent's book. They must be doing something right!

Jamie


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## StaceyTanglewood (30 May 2007)

sorry have to agree the reason we buy foreign is because the horses are better !! I have been to many studs over there where they have acres of land and all the mums and foals are out in the fields for 3 years !! 

my horse is a U on his passport i dont really care i got to name him too !!! some of those foreign names are so hard to pronounce !! 

I have breed my 2 mares one belgium and one hannovarian and always chosen foreign stallions !! they are just better !!


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## magic104 (30 May 2007)

Oh some common sense at last.  I am fed up with reading about how these horses are kept when the reality is so much different.  If you really want to have a go at how horses are kept look to the US &amp; the way they treat their Saddle horses it has been well documented how they get that high stepping action &amp; the tail carriage.  This is often helped by mans intervention, &amp; not always very pleasent.
"The American Saddlebred was started in Kentucky in 1832 and was
known as the Kentucky Saddler. It was used to carry plantation
owners around the fields and over long distances in comfort.
Saddlebreds are either three or five gaited. It is still shown
harness and can be used as a pleasure and trail horse. Despite
its versatility, the American Saddlebred Association still
describes it as "Americas most misunderstood breeds" because of
the artificial way in which it is produced and its image of a
cropped, high set tail, overlong hooves and the use of somewhat
dubious training aids. - American Saddlebred (gaitedhorse.com)"


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## harrihjc (30 May 2007)

My horse was bred in Holland, but had been over here for over a year when I bought him. I know nothing about where he was bred, but he is incredibly greedy has very little manners, which suggests to me that perhaps he was underfed and not disciplined as a youngster, however he is such a character and loves people I wouldn't change him for the world.


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## StaceyTanglewood (30 May 2007)

I must say my Dutch gelding is the best behaved horse ive ever had he is a true gentleman !!


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## airedale (30 May 2007)

so are all my british and Irish bred horses

the issue of production of USA show horses is also cruel in some respects but is nothing to do with breeding which is the topic of this thread so is a red herring

the issue is that the continentals breed LOTS of horses - 200 to one stallion in one year - and therefore in some cases the gene pool is not diverse enough (similarly to too much breeding to certain Irish SJ stallions and to the over dependence on Northern Dancer and then Saddlers Wells in TB flat race breeding)

In the UK we typically - even the one mare owners - try to breed a GOOD horse (esp. as it is bloody expensive over here to breed horses)

the philosopy on the continent is that - lets breed hundreds of horses and if we get 10 that are good, 50 that are OK and another 50 that can be sold to the idiot british - then we'll eat the rest

Personally I never have and never will support a horse breeding industry that sets out at the start to eat the 'spare' produce - and I don't support e.g. the New Forest breeders for the same reason !!!

In the UK we set out to breed quality - it might not alwasy happen but we TRY
On the continent they set out to breed horsemeat and just sell as riiding horses the ones that are too good to eat

sorry - not sentiment - but I will not knowingly eat HORSE and so - by the reaction to a recent 'F Word' program on Ch. 4 where Janet Street=Porter brought back to the UK horse meat to eat - many of the UK people feeel exactly the same


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## magic104 (31 May 2007)

I am sorry airedale, but the majority of people in the UK do not "try to breed a GOOD horse" or "In the UK we set out to breed quality". Stallion owners continue to take sub standard mares &amp; people continue to breed from sub standard. Hardly anyone except the racing industry are interested in blood lines or how either horse is bred. The only people who seem to care are some of the decent studs who are breeding from their own stock. The foal due in the next few weeks traces to Glidawn Diamond standing at the Kennedy Equine Centre. How many mares do you think they cover a year &amp; how do you suppose they keep their youngsters? Dont insinuate that other countries keep their offspring like battery chickens, because they dont. As I said the youngsters have turn out in well fenced &amp; well maintained fields and are kept in groups, which yes spend time in barns as they do on a lot of studs in this country. The difference is they run it as a business not a hobby (and I am not saying the UK studs are any different) just there are more 1 mare owner breeders here. I have tried to make sure that whenever I have bred I have checked out the breeding lines, I am also aware that the stallion is only going to contribute a small % to the foal. It is also important that he compliments the mare. As for the amount their stallions cover, again this is their business as already mentioned to get good horses you have to breed many, because it is like a lottery. Even after breeding a good animal there is the producing of that animal to consider. I have lost count how many times I have seen people backing &amp; riding newly backed horses/ponies who have no right to be on their backs. They do not have an independent seat, they do not know how to give the correct aids so the horse/pony learns correctly. No most of us play at breeding we do not take it seriously, those that do take time to investigate &amp; even put their mares forward for grading. They know what they want as an end result. I know someone who travels all over &amp; is involved in gradings &amp; they would dispute what you have put regarding how the continent breed &amp; keep their horses. Like everywhere there will be the bad uns, but at the end of the day there is no profit in a mediocre animal, or one that has not been raised correctly. As for the surplus, what would you have done with them? Unless you are a vegan, you eat meat, there is nothing wrong in people eating horse meat, once again I repeat myself, it is how the animal is kept &amp; then disposed of that is the issue. This is the same whether it is a horse, pig, cow or sheep. I witnessed in the 80's, that there are a lot of people here quiet happy to cross the waters &amp; bring back the rejects just because it is a WB. Having said that their mediocre animals could still knock spots off ours! As I have said before a good horse is a good horse no matter what it's breeding or colour. People should have a choice as to what they want to ride &amp; if that is something that has been bred abroad then so be it.


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## magic104 (31 May 2007)

Statement taken for Kennedy EC found on their website;
http://www.kennedyequinecentre.com/page4diam06.htm

The recent changes in course building (big distances) &amp; the new found popularity in Dressage have changed our breeding focus. We now have to produce horses that are straight, sound, have elastic paces &amp; show big scope over fences to compete with our continental breeders in the market.

Glidawn Diamond's bloodlines are the backbone of the KEC breeding programme, his fillies are crossed back to our Continental Sires to produce the new type Irish Sport Horse. We see that the stock retain the temperament, intelligence &amp; fighting spirit of 'Diamond'. These vital characteristics are essential crosses with the big scope, elasticity, paces &amp; ease of riding of our Continentals to produce our own Team Horses &amp; also marketable competiton &amp; amateur riding horses for the future.


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## AndyPandy (31 May 2007)

Completely agree with you again. So many "breeders" in the UK take themselves extremely seriously, even when they are breeding blind, with substandard mares and stallions. There are very few breeders in the UK who are willing to take the breeding seriously by investigating bloodlines, taking their animals to be graded and realising and accepting when they've got a horse which is not good enough.

What frustrates me at gradings is when owners, whose animals fail the grading, throw the "British Bred" card at the grading body. Where it was bred makes no difference, either the horse is up to scratch or not. If you take a horse to be graded (which you should if you are serious about breeding), and the grading body says the horse is no good - don't take it personally. Take their comments on board, and try again. I have some comments on the grading system in the UK as well, but those aren't for this thread.

Concerning surplus: again Magic, you're right. It is no different to any other "farm" animal. You are more than welcome to choose not to eat horse meat, but that doesn't mean it's unacceptable that people do. Would you prefer that they ended up not being wanted, and dying of malnutrition? As long as the horses are cared for adequately, even if they are put down/used for meat, the quality of care is all that matters - and for the mostpart, even the "evil Dutch" (as you would have us believe, Airedale) care for all of their horses. Of course, as people have said before - you'll be able to find AWFUL people in every country around the world, who mistreat their horses - but please stop trying to make a direct connection between continental breeding methods and animal cruelty. It's nothing like battery chicken farming.

What Britain needs are more sensible business people who also care about and enjoy the horses. Any volunteers?

Jamie


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## StaceyTanglewood (31 May 2007)

And so are my british bred horses !!! but i dont know anything about the US !!


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## warmbloodlover (31 May 2007)

I am reletively new to this site and do not very often answer posts but airdale I have never read so much twaddle in my life. If you think that british breeders worry about grading their horses more than the europeans you are sadly mistaken where do you think grading came from. Please make sure you are fully informed of the correct facts before spouting such nonsence. Have you ever been and looked at any studs over there???? I can take you to a stud over here breeding british horses that I would not send a dead rat to so there are good and bad everywhere. Do not slate the horses as we do not have anything over here to compete with them in certain disciplines as is the case the other way round and what we should do is take a leaf out of each others books for the sake of breeding good quality sound horses for all to enjoy. Reading ill informed rubbish like this makes me wonder why I bother looking at this site. I thought it was to share information and maybe help each other not just slate eurpeans and make broad sweeping unfounded statements.


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## custard (31 May 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
Maybe British breeders should take some advice from continetal breeders as they then may actually stay in business and make buying a british bred horse a viable option.

But whilst people insist on breeding from lame old rubbish and stallion owners continue putting their stallions to such horses, british bred horses are going to remain either inferior or way too expensive if they are actually half decent. 

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry Airedale but have to agree with this, whilst the continental methods aren't ideal in our eyes I bet they have far fewer sick, sorry and badly conformed horses being passed round sales and ending up with the meatman


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## airedale (31 May 2007)

good for them - although if they 'now' have to produce horses that are straight and sound what the heck were they producing before

however a lot of what is said above about british breeding is what was happening 20 years ago and the statement quoted above reflects a lot of what is happening here - the UK isn't too proud to learn from abroad in trying to breed what the customer appears to want (or what is needed to get points/win/whatever) but they are doing that and you cannot say that the stock presented at say Addington isn't good.

what is wrong is that the 'reputation' (or marketing) of the continental 'product' has been better and so people think "need a competition horse - must cross the channel" which just isn't true anymore - and we need to have more people enlightened enough to look at the good stuff being bred here

I totally also accept that people eat horse - what I dislike is that people knowingly overbreed horses as it 'won't matter' as the junk can be eaten. 

Personally I'd rather be an efficient business with heart than an efficient business without it.


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## Faithkat (31 May 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
   I am sorry airedale, but the majority of people in the UK do not "try to breed a GOOD horse" or "In the UK we set out to breed quality". Stallion owners continue to take sub standard mares &amp; people continue to breed from sub standard. Hardly anyone except the racing industry are interested in blood lines or how either horse is bred. 

[/ QUOTE ] 

That is an incredibly arrogant, sweeping statement.  Do you KNOW everyone in this country that breeds?  I am a one-mare owner and I can assure you that I spent time considering what stallion to put her to in order to produce what I wanted and ditto for next year too.  I am most certainly breeding for quality.  As someone said previously, it is far too expensive an enterprise to undertake lightly.

Most of the sports horse stallions in this country are of foreign breeding so what difference does it make where their physical location is and with exported semen a lot of "British-bred" foals are actually continental breeding anyway.


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## magic104 (31 May 2007)

Quote "I am sorry airedale, but the majority of people in the UK do not" 
That is not a sweeping statement at all, but a statement of fact, majority is NOT all.  And if you think I am wrong ask any top rider what they think of our breeding industry.  I have said this before as well Ireland knock spots of us.  They are far more organised, but again treat it as an industry, not as a pet breeding activity.  Their government give them backing ours could not care less.  They proudly announce their achievements, &amp; the breeding of their horses, what do we do?  Diddly squat that's what.  Why take it personally, if you do bother to grade your mare &amp; look at the blood lines.  My comments are not aimed at you.  Cheers.


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## Faithkat (31 May 2007)

I agree that our government isn's helpful re breeding, particularly compared with the French who have several national studs for various types of TB and sports horses.

Have a look at this (scroll down to page 5) : http://www.nedonline.co.uk/pdfs/NED_News_10.pdf

I'm a bit biased as I used a very talented son of Carnaval Drum on my mare!!


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## Tempi (31 May 2007)

i really couldnt care less whether the foal/horse was named or not - TBH id prefer if it wasnt as then i can chose my own name.

Archie is 'U' on his passport.... Really dosent bother me, ive sent it off to get it changed and thats that.

And as for not buying British, surely what people do is up to them?  I brought Archie purely for his talent and potential. I couldnt have cared less if he'd come from Australia/Britain/Netherlands whatever i still woudlve brought him.


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## airedale (31 May 2007)

Interesting link - the quote by Malcolm Pyrah is just so right and what I keep posting on here - we breed good horses - we're just useless at getting the UK public to believe that we breed good horses

and also to note is in last weeks H&amp;H that stallion (can't remember it's name) that has gone over to Germany and got full grading - bit about them opening a bottle of Krug to celebrate

Now that was a british bred horse going and beating the germans in their own backyard.

I accept that there is a cross-fertilisation of bloodlines across the channel but also must point out that people here seem to have totally forgotten that the continental horses are what they are today because the germans et al came over here 20 years ago and took back with them some great TBs and native ponies to improve their horses

so that nice expensive import if you look at it's pedigree 4 generations back may well have UK horses in it
we have now got in the UK british bred mares and stallions that yes, 3 or 4 generations back were imported bloodlines, but they are now british bred and should be supported

WHY do we as a country have to keep shooting ourselves in the foot and coming out with cr4p like "well if you look at the good UK horses they are all of continental bloodlines" 

apart from the fact that that just isn't true !! why not just make the statemetn a bit shorter and support UK breeding by stating "well - look at the good UK horses" and leave out the 2nd part of the sentence

You don't see the germans trumpeting the fact that their horses have british bloodlines - they are claiming they are GERMAN and proud of it

this ability to keep 'doing ourselves down' is so frustrating and such a symbol of the absence of national pride in our country.

WE can and do "do things right" but a few more people on here need to stop throwing bricks at us and instead support us and/or stop being so bl00dy negative.


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## Tinkerbee (31 May 2007)

our foal was only officially named when he was 6 months...

and the latest filly doesnt have a name yet


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## StaceyTanglewood (31 May 2007)

but horses such as oldenburg have to be graded over there as they dont hold gradings over here !!!


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## minesadouble (31 May 2007)

I am no expert on breeding competition horses in this country or any other, but we do breed welsh ponies and riding ponies and a lot of welsh and riding ponies are sold to Germany, Australia the Netherlands etc. every year. I personally think that if people want to compete they will buy the best they can find - regardless of country of origin, I certainly wouldn't expect someone to buy a British bred animal if it were inferior to a foreign animal purely because of principles.
On the continent they have had an established breeding programme for many years unlike the UK.
As far as surplus stock goes, I know of more than one stud in this country that routinely cull all conformationally substandard animals - I am not saying I agree with this practise but I can certainly see the logic behind it. (If anything we breed is not suitable for showing or breeding we break them and sell them without a prefix as pony club ponies- a slightly less ruthless alternative!).
I do find it hard to believe that the sole reason there are fewer British bred horses at the top of their discipline is purely because they are 'unfashionable' in some way.
B.T.W. post just a general comment rather than aimed at anyone in particular!!!


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## magic104 (31 May 2007)

You are talking about;
Holme Park Legend 

Great news from Germany! Holme Park Legend has been graded by the Trakehner Verband. He passed his 30 day Performance Test in Schliekau with an outstanding overall score of 8.06!! Congratulations to his breeders, Susan and Paul Attew of Holme Park Stud. 

Yes it is great news, and an example of a stud that has spent years researching their blood lines &amp; only breeding from the best graded mares.  Does not mean that they turn away poor outside mares, just that their own breeding programme is to breed from the best to achieve the best.  

I agree &amp; again have made comments on earlier posts that the WB is very often made up of UK TB's, again LadyKiller being one of the most famous.  Does not take away the fact that they can &amp; do produce better horses, &amp; I mean produce as in their training as well as breeding.  And it is not the norm to back &amp; ride 2yr old either.  This debate started because of the comments made in liking them to chicken farms, which is just not the case.  Also because they do not name their foals, again I repeat, horses/animals do not care what they are called, you could call them sh-tbag, they would not be offended.  I think the issue is dont just single out one country, and if you do ensure you have full facts, not just based on the odd one out of hundreds.


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## Tempi (31 May 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
but horses such as oldenburg have to be graded over there as they dont hold gradings over here !!! 

[/ QUOTE ]

exactly.....


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## StaceyTanglewood (31 May 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
but horses such as oldenburg have to be graded over there as they dont hold gradings over here !!! 

[/ QUOTE ]

exactly..... 
	
	
		
		
	


	





[/ QUOTE ]

tell me about it if i have a colt next week in 3 years time ill be off to germany !!! woo hoo atleast they hold the foal inspection over here !!!


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## Faithkat (31 May 2007)

I agree.  I think what "we" have to do is publicise the British-bred tag rather more.  Carnaval Path is trumpeted as being British Bred despite being by a Dutch Warmblood but, like you say, the Warmblood was produced originally via the use of TBs. . . . but the ethos that needs to be got over is the belief that the only way to get a decent competition horse is go abroad.  I find that quite upsetting particularly when I could steer people in the direction of some lovely British-bred youngsters.  Mind you, the stud in question never has a problem selling them anyway.  And on the subject of good British-bred horses, they currently have a 3/4 year old that was an embryo transplant from Corrada before she went to the States.  It's as sharp as knife but VERY talented . . . . not very pretty. . . .  but VERY talented.


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## mistered (31 May 2007)

The aim of any stud must surely be to breed successfull horses, to do this you must understand the demands of your chosen discipline and also understand the attributes that are requied to achieve success. 

In this country we rely greatly on luck. don't get me wrong, the stories of a farmer using the local TB Stallion on his Shire mare and producing a 'Grade A' Showjumper are fantastic, but you could not build a business or a reputation, based on 'pot luck'. 

I prefer to leave breeding to the experts, i have been lucky enough to breed 4 healthy foals over recent years using well bred mares and european stallions. there are lots of 'ups and downs' and it's a time consuming and costly process. i'd much rather take a trip to a stud and buy a nice two/three year old from a choice of 20/30 well kept, well fed, well bred horses that have been managed correctly within excellent facilities including acres of well managed grazing! i don't really care if this is in the UK, europe or Ireland.

Let's face it, we are years behind the rest of Europe and Ireland when it comes to breeding, this is far more than a 'fad' or 'fashion' - take a look at the start list in any international SJ class and have a look at the breeding of each horse......


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## airedale (31 May 2007)

but that is because it is a german breed

you wouldn't necessarily be unsurprised to have e.g. no New Forest breed grading in France or whatever as that is a UK breed

Now if you'd bought or bred a british warmblood or hannoverian you wouldn't have to goto germany to get it graded ;-)

however it still remains that we are very bad at marketing our product and very good at shooting ourselves in the foot

how many times have I been to olympia e.g. and seen the breeding of the foreign horses listed and a lot of the UK horses not listed - that is something that would be so easy to address


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## jumpthemoon (31 May 2007)

I've got a foreign horse and TBH I think most of the time they are produced much more professionally than here. I think we have a lot to learn from our European conterparts - not just in breeding and in producing of horses, but in equitation as well. Sure there are some bad eggs out there, but you can be certain there are bad eggs here too. We should stop slagging them off and look at what they do to make them so respected.


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## airedale (31 May 2007)

so what makes them 'produced much more professionally' ???

do you mean they are better 'cos they can do canter pirouettes at 4 and jump 4 ft as foals (reported and photographed in H&amp;H 6 months ago) ??

do you mean having professional bereiters doing extensive sitting trot and collected work on them at two ?

I would agree that some of their equitation rider training is very good and very consistent - however I don't think they (yet) have the litigation culture we have over here where young riders are not even permitted to ride without stirrups in case they fall off and sue somebody

good riding comes from a strong independent seat and good balance and feel. You cannot develop an independent seat without riding without stirrups and even better, jumping without stirrups or bareback - as was taught when I learnt to ride

You CAN still find proper equitation training in this country but it seems to be limited to the cavalry and the mounted police - where the instructees learn that falling off is part of riding and you just get back on again. The riders aren't worse here - they are trying to train and teach with H&amp;SE, compensation cultrue and insurance companies tying their hands behind their backs - but that is a topic for another thread

long gone are the days of going up the jumping lane with no reins, no stirrups, a 10bob note under your knees and your arms out to the side or behind your back


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## jumpthemoon (31 May 2007)

Airedale, I agree that the horses are sometimes produce in a too much too soon manner, but it is not all of them and the point I was making is that they take their riding a lot more seriously than a lot of people over here. This is evident in their competition circles where we have people kicking and flapping round a novice XC course hanging on to the horses mouth - the riding seems to be a much higher standard than here - hence the training of the horses. 

I think it is very noble of you to try to promote British Bred horses and I think we should do all we can to improve the standards over here and breed, produce and properly market more quality equines. I was merely making the point that they do some thing very well and we should not be blinded by the fact that they are European and try to learn from them. I know what you mean abou H&amp;SE and litigation and I think it does have a big impact on our riding nowadays (sadly), but like you say, that's another subject.


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## magic104 (1 June 2007)

My daughter learnt to ride on the lunge without stirrups or reins, she can also jump up to 2.9 because I agree this is the best &amp; quickest way to learn to balance your own body, so you are not holding on with the reins.  I really do not know why you think all Europeans ride their young horses as follows do you mean having professional bereiters doing extensive sitting trot and collected work on them at two ?  Honestly this is such rubbish, it is not the norm at all.  I would love to know what studs you have visited &amp; where you are basing info like do you mean they are better 'cos they can do canter pirouettes at 4 and jump 4 ft as foals (reported and photographed in H&amp;H 6 months ago) ??  Where are foals jumping 4ft??  Yes I have seen Paul Schockemohle sending yearlings over fences as one offs to see their technique, they are not jumped on a regular basis at all.  Also some yards will put poles down &amp; let loose a group of youngsters.  Also it is not the norm to work 2yrs olds in a collected manner either or ask 4yr olds to do canter pirouettes.  You are making sweeping statements &amp; insinuating that all this is the norm &amp; goes on all the time, what utter rubbish.  How many times to you have to be informed for horses competing into late teens early 20s.  What is the point in them spending all their time trying to breed good quality horses, to break them down before they start their ridden career, because I can assure you they would be no good to anyone.  So were we all to believe that in this country all show jumpers were rapping their horses with poles or dressing them in hedgehog skins to make them pick their front legs up?  I mean after all this was reported in equine publications, so surely this means it was the norm!  You keep harping back to the Europeans as well, why is that?  Have you not seen what other countries expect of their 2yrs olds?  Is it different because they are QHs or TBs, are they anymore mature in their brains &amp; bodies compared to WBs.  As already mentioned instead of berating the Europeans we should remember that they had the knowledge to take our TBs like Ladykiller &amp; Dark Roland &amp; make them immortal.  In case you did not know Dark Roland was sold to Germany &amp; along with Loviers became very influential in their breeding programme, especially with the show jumping lines.  We had these stallions 1st, so why could the British not have bred the likes of Furioso, &amp; Boy (who was by Ladykiller) &amp; ridden by Eddie Macken?  Could it be that we just did not have the knowledge or inclination?


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## sallyf (1 June 2007)

Furioso most likely was british bred as he was by Precipitation who was an Ascot gold cup winner and went to stud in England.
One of my best brood mares who is english TB and my small TB stallion both go back to precipitation as do alot of the best eventers and showjumpers.
It is actually Precipitation where the jumping ability throws from.
Good old british breeding . 
You might find this link interesting click on the info box and read about him.
http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/precipitation


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## tigers_eye (1 June 2007)

Do you know what bugs me most about this thread (and this isn't aimed at you exclusively magic))? Everyone keeps referring to the Europeans and the British..... Britain has been part of Europe for 34 years, so whatever facts/theories/generalisations you have all been stating about the europeans does include UK residents too  
	
	
		
		
	


	




.


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## jumpthemoon (1 June 2007)

We really mean 'the rest of the Western Europeans' but that would take too long to type out each time


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## magic104 (1 June 2007)

No offence taken, but I have to use the term already been bannded about.  I am sorry if it annoys, but it annoys me to keep reading about 2yrs olds being expected to do collected work &amp; cope with constant sitting trot, sorry but this is so untrue.  But you have made a very valid point.


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## tigers_eye (1 June 2007)

It is more the island mentality that bugs me to be honest - us v them. Well from a riders' point of view I judge each horse on its merits, I'm pretty sure every horse I've ever sat on has been european - ie. born within europe! I would like to see a formailsed approach to teaching here, ie. teaching people to be riders of young horses, as I think this gives young horses a better chance. Too many people here try to do it themselves and their horse ends up being a much lesser horse than it could have been. I do breed the odd one, and I sent the last one away to be broken in properly, and the next one will be.


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## AndyPandy (1 June 2007)

I have been trying to refer to "European" breeders as "continental" instead to try and prevent this kind of confusion 
	
	
		
		
	


	





I don't think it's just a case of not advertising British Bred horses... It is fact that when continental breeders come here, they are generally unimpressed by the youngstock we produce, and when Brits go over to Holland, Germany etc. they are seen as unprofessional. I know of a couple of English breeders who have taken stallions to be graded abroad, and failed.

Now, I can imagine what you're thinking airedale - they failed the grading because of the "stereotype" about British bred horses, and the lack of positive things we say about our own horses. Well, it's not the case. The judges said that the horses were not good enough, and that the breeders appeared unprofessional. It's not just a case of inexperience, they were told that they looked like amateurs. Surely that might be indicative of a problem with British breeders, and many of their attitudes toward breeding.

I think it is a case of poor breeding (not enough quality stock produced) and poor production (being left for too long, or started by riders who are inexperienced or rough). I've seen plenty of young horses in this county who have been ruined by the age of 3/4/5 because they were backed and broken badly (too quick, too rough etc.), by riders in a hurry to get them looking flashy to sell at auction, or to start winning tests/competitions from an early age. I don't think this is a problem solely confined to continental breeders - it is a problem linked to impatient breeders and impatient riders.

I see part of the problem as this (obviously this does not concern  TBs)... on the continent, there are farmers/recreational riders who have a few horses and breed for fun. They don't call themselves "studs" or have websites, or go out and try and win breeding classes. Then you have professional breeders who have 10-30 mares and try to breed quality horses on a medium scale, but have enough mares and knowledge to do so. They sell their horses at auction, or to larger studs, and are semi-professional. Then you have the breeding farms, which have 50-200+ mares and are run as a professional farming operation. It's mostly these places where we get our horses from. So, there are at least three tiers on the continent, with the chance of producing a top quality animal increasing as you go up each level.

In the UK, we have "recreational" breeders - almost all of which have stud cards, websites, call themselves studs, take their youngstock to breeding classes etc. And then we have a few semi-professional studs (or certainly the equivalent in continental terms), which are our "top" studs. Because of the fact that we have two tiers, and the fact that the recreationally bred stallions and mares are being sold on to be used for breeding, the quality of youngstock that is produced in this country is not only lower (on average), but is also diluted with youngstock, broodmares and stallions of unknown breeding.

It's like entering the national lottery (or lotto, whatever). A British stud buys 1 or 2 tickets, and hopes for the best. A continental stud buys 150 tickets. Who is more likely to win a prize?


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## ihatework (1 June 2007)

I have read this thread with interest, and I have to say AndyPandy you talk a hell of a lot of sense!


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## Tierra (1 June 2007)

Im sorry but the generalisations in this thread are crazy.

Airedale its fine that you encourage people to respect British breeding and not ASSUME they need to go abroad to find a horse to do the job but some of what you say is going too far.

Not all the horses in northern Europe are kept in large barns where they never see the light of day. Many of the youngsters are out with the mares 24 hours.

Yes, we keep horses over here differently to in the UK, that does not necessarily mean we're sacrficing the horses well being in doing so. It's DIFFERENT but that does not give the UK some definitive voice on how to keep horses. 

Im sure SOME places dont name their foals, slap a number on them and rush them through training. Im sure that occurs in the UK also but in no way is it the norm. 

Some of the countries you are making blanket generalisations about are horse countries in every sense of the word with people who have a deep sense of pride about their horse culture (and im in one). The horses are treated as individuals in a sentimental way similar to what you would find in the UK. 

In regards to the training - they arent all started at 2 years old for heavens sake. However i do believe that the standard of riding in Holland, Denmark and Germany is generally better which is why the horses often do more at a younger age. That doesnt mean they're doing canter pirouettes as 4 year olds. Ive been on yards in the UK with grand prix dressage riders where young stock from the above mentioned countries are arriving all the time, primarily sourced for clients. None of them have been over produced, they work nicely for their age but arguable (imo) of a better standard than the ones from the UK. No they're not doing canter piros or piaffe and passage. They're able to maintain their outlines, their able to doing some leg yielding and shoulder in but they're very much babies - albeit babies started well.

The people breaking and working the young horses over here have to hold their qualifications. Theres no ifs and buts about it. If you dont hold the bereiter exams or be actively working to them, you wont work on a yard in Denmark. The trainees are on the lunge for hours and hours (and before anyone accuses us of over lunging, no its not on the same damn horse and no, they arent babies). The dont leave the lunge until their seat is good, established and independent. Theres no fluff over here. If you jab your horse in the mouth while trotting because you lose your balance, you'll be told to get off and you'll be back on the lunge. The respect for horses is much greater than ive seen in the uk!

Im personally offended at the implications in this thread. My horse is kept in a very "continental" way but that does not make it wrong. Perhaps the UK could learn a lot from some of the more horsey countries in Europe rather than assuming all the damn time that everything they do is wrong. Breeding is improving in the UK but its still far from the general standards of Holland, Germany or Denmark imo. There is some fabulous work going into it, but there are still a lot of people breeding absolute rubbish. There still are here too, but its much harder to do and much less frequent.


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## mistered (1 June 2007)

Well Said!


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## Tierra (1 June 2007)

Well said.


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## jumpthemoon (1 June 2007)

Well said Tierra!!


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## AndyPandy (1 June 2007)

Yes. Hear, hear!


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## magic104 (1 June 2007)

At last someone who can put this person straight who is actually seeing these things.  Thank you and thanks to AndyPandy, because it is balanced views like yours that are needed.  I have sent this thread to a few friends, they can not believe the distorted view being put across.  And I am so glad that you are able to refute the fact that 2yr olds are being ridden, especially in sitting trot!!!


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## Tia (1 June 2007)

With all due respect, breeding horses in Denmark is certainly nowhere near comparable to breeding practices in the Netherlands, Belgium, Germany and is most definitely VASTLY different from horses bred in Eastern Europe.


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## magic104 (1 June 2007)

With all due respect they still dont go around housing them in barns with no turn out, or riding them as 2yr olds, any of which is an exception rather then the rule.  I have friends who have a real interest in breeding, whether it is the grading side, or both.  They spend a fair amount of time travelling to Netherlands, Belgium &amp; Germany &amp; if their reports &amp; photo's are anything to go by, they are not that far removed from Denmark or anywhere else come to that.  This thread started because of the comments;

""It's a quick way of establishing a horse's year of birth. Some horses, like this one, are just given a letter relevant to the year of birth as foals are produced in great volume and naming them all may be impractical. "  SO WHAT, BEEN COVERED HORSE WONT CARE WHAT IT IS CALLED

HOW DISGUSTING that a horse is not even worthy of a name when foaled. !!!!!!!!
http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/horsecare/1370/121728.htmlWHY IS IT DISGUSTING SO LONG AS THE HORSE IS HAPPY, AGAIN IT REALLY DOES NOT GIVE A MONKEYS WHAT WE CALL HIM/HER

for those of you that have 'attacked' me for my sig - EAT YOUR WORDS 

and for those that think buying on the continent is so wonderful - just read that paragraph above about 6 times and think if a BRITISH breeder would be so callous as to not name a foal.....................  AGAIN WHY CALLOUS??

and then vote to buy british 

--------------------
If you don't buy factory farmed chicken then why buy a factory farmed horse from the continent ? WHY STATE THEY ARE FACTORY FARMED WHEN THIS IS FAR FROM TRUE

People should buy BRITISH BRED horses and not imported ones. MATTER OF CHOICE

We then got onto the subject of horses being kept in barns as if that is it for them, rubbish they have turn out, they are housed in barns the same as studs all over europe.  It is more practicle for both animal &amp; their managment.


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## Tia (1 June 2007)

How do you know what goes on in Denmark?  And how can you blithely state all these points as fact and dumb them down as "exceptions" when you have clearly not been to breeding facilities on the Continent?


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## AndyPandy (1 June 2007)

I'm not sure how useful this comment is. Unless you have visited a wide range of studs across Europe, then of course you cannot make useful sweeping comments. I think the important fact here is that continental farming methods, as used by professional studs, are more successful at producing top quality youngstock than the widely accepted British methods are. Additionally, that these professional farms are not cruel to their horses, and in any country in the world you will be able to find examples (cruel farms, good British breeders, poor continental breeders) to try and prove a point with. We're trying to look at the overall picture.


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## magic104 (1 June 2007)

Oh sorry Tia, did not realise you knew anything about me,  because with that statement you clearly dont!!  I am not going to get personal so we shall leave it there.  I have my thoughts on some peoples idea of good riding &amp; breeding practices.  I have never bred anything that has not gone on to do well, they have never had temperment issues, &amp; have held their own at county level.  I spend a lot of time researching the breeding &amp; it has only happened twice that I have bred from a mare of unknown breeding, but the last one was graded as 1 with the HIS.  I have never bred a horse &amp; not registered it, which is another issue this country has.  As for seeing other studs, &amp; other countries you are very ill informed.


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## Amymay (1 June 2007)

What a hugely interesting thread.

 [ QUOTE ]
Oh sorry Tia, did not realise you knew anything about me, because with that statement you clearly dont!!   

[/ QUOTE ] 
And Magic - Tia is not being personal - but you need to have facts to back up an argument - and not just what you've read on some website.


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## dieseldog (1 June 2007)

OH, lets state some facts

Why do people buy foreign bred horses?

Because they are better than British Bred horses.  They are producing what the average rider wants along with world class horses.

Why are they better?

Because the continentals have been doing it longer than us

Will British Bred horses improve?

Lets hope so, lets hope that british breeders have enough sense to learn from the continentals mistakes and to also exploit the continental bloodlines that are in exisistance - just like they did with British Bred horses years ago.


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## Tia (1 June 2007)

You don't want to get personal (which I wasn't) and want to leave it there?  So why then continue with giving me a run-down on all the horses you have bred?  I'm not really interested in what you have bred to be perfectly honest; I am purely saying that breeding in Denmark is not comparable to the rest of the Continent.....and I know that because I was Manager of a stud in Denmark hence I have first-hand knowledge of what goes on in a number of the upper-end studs over there.


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## magic104 (1 June 2007)

Well lets agree to disagree then.  As for info from websites, not so, info first hand &amp; from people who spend their time visiting Europe with regard to horse breeding.  So I would say they have far more knowledge of practices then is obvious by some of the comments I have seen on here.


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## AndyPandy (1 June 2007)

But it has already been stated (hence Denmark coming into it) that breeding practises are different in every country in Europe.. however, we have been attempting to look generally at other countries, and why they produce better horses than we do. I think this particular thread may become unfocussed if we are not careful. 

"I did this", "I did that", "you haven't done this" - who cares, to be quite frank. Experience allows one to pass on a more informed opinion. It doesn't give one the right to become petty. 

So Tia, in your experience, how are things done in Denmark? Does that system produce better quality horses than we produce in the UK? Are there things that could be changed to make it better? Are there elements that we can take from Danish breeding that might be useful, or are there things we should avoid?


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## Tia (1 June 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
Does that system produce better quality horses than we produce in the UK?  

[/ QUOTE ]
In my opinion, a most resounding YES! 

 [ QUOTE ]
Are there elements that we can take from Danish breeding that might be useful, or are there things we should avoid?   

[/ QUOTE ] 

Again in my opinion, yes there are.  Top quality mares are coveted over there.  Breeding tends to take place with only good stock on both parents sides.  In the UK there seems to be this mentality (which I believe is fairly recent to be honest) that it is fine to breed from anything, often because a much loved mare is no longer rideable.  This is generally not the case in Denmark - it is a business over there, sentiment doesn't come into it.


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## AndyPandy (1 June 2007)

And this is exactly what I think many people here are trying to say. The qualities that British breeders need are written down time after time in this thread. Successful breeding requires top quality bloodlines, educated breeders, and a business acumen. Unfortunately, it is rare to find this in the UK.


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## Tia (1 June 2007)

......but this is partly my point; top quality mares are often not used when breeding in other areas of Europe.  The difference being that the mares generally used in Denmark have done something, have won something, ARE good mares.  At a lot of other European (countries) breeding facilities this is very often not the case.  They breed from mares where the mare has done nothing.....she just happens to have a famous Grandsire.....hence she is not proven to be much better, in a lot of cases, than the British bred cripple.


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## airedale (1 June 2007)

The report of the foal jumping 4ft 3 inches was in a report in H&amp;H complete with photograph - and it WAS A FOAL - in an issue of last autumn reporting the 'champion foal' at some german shindig or other

I also don't like what is done to USA quarter horses or e.g. tennessee walking horses to achieve the gaits

you don't even NEED to visit germany - in the last 6 months someone posted on here a link to a sales site for a German sale - I think the thread title was something like "wow - what fabulous horses" or similar

when you watched the videos these were 2 yr olds doing collected work in sitting trot, etc etc - exactly as I've described above
I've also seen similar before and direct from studs with videos of their stallions doing progeny groups and their youngstock doing mixed dressage classes with 3 hrorses in the ring at *2* and 3 doing movements we would expect to see at Elementary level dressage

Yes - I know about the exported horses - I mentioned them first

Why did we not use them - because at that time we didn't have german carthorses trying to be good - they needed our TB blood to lighten the german 'product' and our native ponies to give some fundamental soundness and toughness


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## airedale (1 June 2007)

not quite - we still have the £ - and lbs and oz. - they are stuck with the euro


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## airedale (1 June 2007)

the video link to those 2 yr olds was posted on this forum about 3 months ago

so it's not tosh


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## Tia (1 June 2007)

I'm interested in your comment here Airedale:
 [ QUOTE ]
I also don't like what is done to USA quarter horses  

[/ QUOTE ] 
Can you tell me what, in your opinion, is "done" to AQHA's?  And how is whatever is "done", detrimental?  I know this is somewhat veering off the original topic but I've seen this comment made several times so it has sparked my curiousity.


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## StaceyTanglewood (1 June 2007)

I must say im breeding from my hannovarian dressage mare and took a long time to decide the stallion i had 2 in mind both with same breeding (Sandro Hit x Donnerhall)

the british stallion (bought over here as a 2yo) was not as good as its German brother but was still £100 more expensive 

The UK one got 7's and 8's in its grading the other got 9's 9.5's and 10's !!! so i used the foreign stallion as i will have one of the first UK foals by this stallion the stud had me sending pics and her details to them to make sure she would breed good quality !!


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## warmbloodlover (1 June 2007)

(quote]but horses such as oldenburg have to be graded over there as they dont hold gradings over here !!! 

[/ QUOTE ]

Please keep your ears open as the oldenburgs do come over and brand and grade the babies, amres etc... this will hopefully buid to being as big a the Hanovarians


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## StaceyTanglewood (1 June 2007)

they come over and check the foals but to grade them as 3yo you have to take them over !! 

think the foal inspection is in september !! hopefully by the time my baby is 3 yo they will have a grading over her !!


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## airedale (1 June 2007)

again producing them at 2 - also the idea of 'sacking out' - which to be fair is not just done to quarter horses - although quarter horses do seem to mature faster than warmbloods to be fair

and before you say - I do consider the skills in western riding when done properly to be great - just not the same as english style

the usa also has the advantage in having equitation jumping classes - which the UK could do well in having to encourage riders to ride with style (not just wh classes)


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## magic104 (1 June 2007)

Are you on about this link;
http://www.westfalenpferde.de/english/index.htm

If so there are/were no 2yrs olds being shown ridden.  A 2yr old would have been born 2005 please check the list below &amp; show me a 2yr old being ridden?  Yes there are plenty of 3yr olds &amp; yes they are being ridden in sitting trot.  They are being shown for a video to go an auction site, there is no suggestion that all their ridden work is done in sitting trot.

The riding horses and ponys:
foto video price no. name born sex, colour sire / 2nd sire / 3rd sire 
  27.500 1 Ricci 2004 gelding, dark bay Roh Magic / Bonus / Dergel 
  8.000 2 Florina 2003 mare, dark bay Florestan I / Renoir I / Gottwalt 
  11.000 3 Delon 2003 gelding, chestnut De Niro / Freudentanz / Ramiroff 
  42.000 4 Designer 2003 gelding, chestnut D´accord / Foxtrott / Salto II 
  7.500 5 Prinz Piccolo 2000 stallion, bay Prinz Pablo / Casaretto / Renard 
  15.500 6 Such a fancy feeling 2004 mare, bay Stedinger / Matcho AA / Goldstein 
    17.000 7 Feiner Willy 2004 gelding, chestnut Fidermark / Weinberg / Ribot 
      6.500 8 Dubai 2001 gelding, bay Donnerwind / Polany / Weinberg 
      5.500 9 Cosma 2003 mare, bay Carabas / Rigoletto / Wohlan 
  24.000 10 For Ever 2003 gelding, bay Florestan I / Frühling / Firn 
  16.000 11 Campario 2003 gelding, bay Collin L / Newcastle / Goldlack 
  8.000 12 Symphonie 2002 mare, bay Show Star / Florestan I / Brentano II 
  8.200 13 Royal Chris 2002 gelding, black Royal Angelo I / Pakt  
  15.500 14 Rupina 2003 mare, dark bay Rockwell / Pigott / Palisander 
    77.000 15 Don Rochelle 2002 gelding, dark bay Dollmann / Pit I / Rex Fritz 
  9.000 16 Carabelle 2003 mare, bay Cheenook / Pit I / Weinberg 
  11.500 17 Rubiano 2003 gelding, bay Roh Magic / Laurentianer / Der Clou 
  canceled 18 Dolce und Gabbana 2003 mare, bay Di Versace / Ribbeck / Pilot 
    7.000 19 Lavinia 2003 mare, bay Lamerto H / Wessex / Akzentus 
  20.000 20 Lauris 2004 gelding, bay Laudabilis / Lancer II / Darlington 
      canceled 21 Finocchino 2004 gelding, bay Fürst Piccolo / Pinocchio / Paradox I 
      9.200 22 Lagerfeld 2002 gelding, dark bay Liebeszauber / Wachhorst / Geronimo 
    canceled 23 La Boheme 2003 mare, chestnut Louis le Bon / Wall Street / Romadour II 
  17.000 24 Contessa 2002 mare, bay Conterno Grande / Latus II / Granikos 
  7.000 25 Dresemeyer 2004 gelding, chestnut Dresemann / Weltmeyer / Wangenheim 
  6.000 26 Freund Horst 2003 gelding, chestnut Fidermark / Wachhorst / Debütant 
      6.000 27 Del Fiore 2003 mare, dark bay Danaos / RTL / Rousseau 
    5.500 28 Detolina 2004 mare, chestnut Dannemann / Wogenbrecher / Pilot 
  canceled 29 Feedback 2002 gelding, bay Future I / Artwig / Weinhang 
  5.000 30 Couplet 2002 mare, bay Cordobes I / Frühlingsball / Rinaldini 
      6.000 31 Dr. Doolittle (Pony) 2002 gelding, grey Danny Gold / Nedo I / Metol 
      2.500 32 Camingo (Pony) 2004 gelding, chestnut Capri Moon / Domingo / Leonardo 
        3.300 33 Mumpitz (Pony) 2003 gelding, dark bay Mumm / Contreau / Nassau 
    8.000 34 Agricula 2001 mare, bay Amantus / Landgraf I / Urioso 
  12.500 35 Extravagante 2002 mare, bay Ehrentanz I / Hamlet Go / Leibjäger 
      7.000 36 Fiapart 2004 gelding, chestnut Fiano / Apart / Renaldo 
      canceled 37 Favonia 2004 mare, dark bay Florestan I / Weinberg / Feuerfunke xx 
  8.500 38 Laureen 2001 mare, bay Laurentianer / Artwig / Weinhang 
  12.000 39 Lennox 2003 gelding, dark bay Laomedon / Apart / Grünhorn III 
  7.000 40 Duchess 2003 mare, chestnut Douceur / Ehrentusch / Frühlingsball 
    7.000 41 Fahrenheit 2003 gelding, chestnut Feinsinn / Ferragamo / Damenstolz 
  canceled 42 Fabiani 2002 mare, chestnut Florestan I / Abano / Paradox II 
  9.000 43 Palü 2002 gelding, bay Pik Labionics / Octavo xx / Mamori xx 
  15.000 44 Shalimo 2004 gelding, bay Show Star / Rohdiamant / Lysander 
      5.000 45 Charipaldi 2004 gelding, dark bay Charisma / Fittipaldi / Regress 
      5.000 46 Finetto 2004 stallion, bay Fidermark / Ramiro´s Son / Frühlingsstar 
  6.000 48 Laudabino 2004 gelding, grey Laudabilis / Ehrentusch / Affekt 
  9.000 49 Saint José 2003 gelding, bay Sterling / Granikos / Damokles 
    10.500 50 Donna Raphaela 2004 mare, chestnut D´accord / Davignon I / Raphael 
  4.500 51 Lara 2001 mare, bay Laurentianer / Tänzer / Romadour II 
      canceled 52 Loreana 2001 mare, grey Lamerto H / Popcorn / Don Juan 
      8.000 53 Lombardo 2004 gelding, bay Laudabilis / Freudentänzer / Darling 
      5.000 54 Royal Marie 2003 mare, bay Rolls Royce / Rossini / Feuerschein I 
      5.000 55 Del Angelo 2003 gelding, bay Depardieu / Royal Angelo II / Pageno 
      7.000 56 Lennard 2003 gelding, bay Lenardo / Polydor / Tivoli 
  21.000 57 Foroni 2003 gelding, bay Fürst Piccolo / Matador / Rheingold 
  5.500 58 Finesse 2004 mare, dark bay Feinsinn / Weltruf / Frühlingstraum II 
  16.500 59 Fenley 2003 gelding, chestnut Fürst Piccolo / Pluspunkt / Lucius xx 
  50.000 60 Fascinato 2004 stallion, black Fürst Heinrich / Funke / Perlkönig I 
    7.500 61 Fleurette 2003 mare, chestnut Fleurop / Paulaner / Furioso II 
      canceled 62 La Jolie 2003 mare, bay Lamoureux I / Pilot / Angriff 
      42.000 63 Feiner Henry 2004 gelding, chestnut Fürst Piccolo / Pinocchio / Dialekt 
      12.500 64 Conroy 2002 gelding, bay Collin L / Amadeus Z / Milan 

And the caption was no wonder we go abroad.  If you look at the foals the movement is already there.


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## Tia (1 June 2007)

I wouldn't say that there are very many QH's produced at 2 years old, to be honest.  Yes it is common practice to lightly back them at 2 but generally most people wait till the horse is around 4 before producing them....certainly I do anyway and I don't know anyone else who does a whole lot with their horses until at least 4 years old.

Sacking out - well I am at the very opposite end of the spectrum to you on this score.  My little foal who is only a month old is already learning all of this .... shock horror LOL!!  I can't bear horses who freak at things and there is no place on my farm for a horse who does this.  Having said that most young horses over here have been sacked out at a very young age so even if you buy an older horse, that is one thing that you are pretty confident will have been done with them.  I am a very firm believer in desensitizing at a young age; so on this point we'll have to agree to disagree  
	
	
		
		
	


	




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I do agree with you that it is very different over here and it does take a far more open-mindedness to get used to it.....however it is a mind-set that, having seen the benefits for both horse and rider, I have adopted, providing the horse is ready.  I believe that the long-term benefits far outweigh any prejudices I might once have had.


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## the watcher (1 June 2007)

Gosh, so many responses, and so many twists and turns from the original post...

I don't think failing to give a foal a name is a bad thing, the foal certainly doesn't know..and to object violently to continental breeding on this basis alone would be sentimental rubbish when there are so many other good reasons to be suspicious of continental breeders.

Breeding does vary widely across continental Europe, however one of the aspects that does differ from the UK is the support that is given to it, in terms of planning allowances, grants, government support and publicity. We might get close to this in the UK with TB breeding, if you can hack through the red tape that seems to exist here.

Some continental breeders do run very large breeding farms and it is no secret that German breeders in particular have bought huge sections of land in the former eastern european countries which house literally hundreds of mares with little or no competition history. These mares are not just there to breed foals by well bred stallions, they are there for the PMU industry - which is why so many foals are produced. When they are exhausted of use in that industry they will then supply the meat industry.

So, some studs will be wonderful, with personal attention to mares and foals..others will be nothing better than factories and a source of misery to hundreds of mares. A responsible purchaser will enquire into the location and type of facility used to produce their foal.

I am not aware of farms of this type in the UK and that is a good thing. I am aware of people who breed indiscrimately and have fields full of mares and foals here, neglected, wormy and very poor quality..but they are not pretending that these are performance animals. We all know who they are. i wouldn't buy one of those either.


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## dieseldog (1 June 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
again producing them at 2 - also the idea of 'sacking out' - which to be fair is not just done to quarter horses - although quarter horses do seem to mature faster than warmbloods to be fair

and before you say - I do consider the skills in western riding when done properly to be great - just not the same as english style

the usa also has the advantage in having equitation jumping classes - which the UK could do well in having to encourage riders to ride with style (not just wh classes) 

[/ QUOTE ]

The UK does have equitation style classes.  The premier 4 YO class is a style and performance one.  2 rounds not against the clock and the horses are marked on their performance and correct way of going.  4 and 5 YO classes are not against the clock.


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## FRESHMAN (1 June 2007)

I have read every single post on this thread &amp; I am sorry airedale but I think this is tosh. There is good &amp; bad in every walk of life &amp; in Individual Countries. I have visited studs in Germany, Belgium, Holland &amp; Denmark (not France for some reason) I have never come across one that works as you describe. You mention PSI. Well they have acre upon acre of land &amp; herds of horses roam freely. YES they do have huge barns (for the worst weather) where they are deep littered with loads of room &amp; they are fed from a central alleyway. OK there is sometimes a bit of bullying, but isnt that quite normal, its how horses learn pecking order &amp; has gone on in the wild for 100's of years. They are fed good quality food &amp; actually with regards to the comment about how DISGUSTING not to name a foal. The owner of that Stud can rhyme off who any of them are by, out of, Grand Sires &amp; Dams of both parents etc.
God Forgive us for our sins, we actually have visited an auction recently. We purchased 5. The truth is we could easily have purchased 50. All of them as described, fabulous bloodlines, well organised, &amp; it was more like a holiday than business.
This Country will have to pull its socks up &amp; sharpish if I am ever going to find the same type of animals as on the Continent. Oh BTW 3 of the horses are 3yr olds &amp; not one of them had been backed. So that sort of knocks your theory on the head doesnt it.
Also everyone of them had a name!


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## Sooty (2 June 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
they live in indoor barns

whilst the barns may be 'big' that means the size of the buildin - the space per horse isn't necessarily all that large..............

and they don't see the outside world and don't get to see grass - just the barn and bulk feeds - no individual feeds to suit the needs of the individual - barrow type feeds - if it suits OK if it doesn't - tough

not like chickens kept in cages - more like BernardMatthews where the birds are overcrowded in barns 

[/ QUOTE ]

Surely by buying one you are doing it a favour then?


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## druid (2 June 2007)

I don't get these arguements....I have a GB bred warmblood yearling....who has entirely German/Swiss blood lines so..is that promoting GB breeding? Or not?

Am I just as bad for importing him into Ireland and not supporting Irish breeding?


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## spottysport (2 June 2007)

Surely the bottom line of this whole argument is down to money!!!!
I breed a couple of foals each year, out of calm sound mares (no they are not graded) by proven stallions. I can easily spend 3k producing each baby, but most riders expect to pick up a weanling here for 800 pounds. The same rider will visit the continent and mortgage their house! It's really not worth doing!
Yes, all mine are named, handled, farrier, innoculated, registered, and see the vet when ness. I just fail to find adequate riders to do them justice!
Sx


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## spottysport (2 June 2007)

and P.S.
I have a livery yard, and both continental horses (purchased at great cost) that have been here have been PTS. They were BOTH lame. Surely that tells us something??????????????????


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## Tia (2 June 2007)

I don't personally know anyone who has spent a vast sum of money on an imported WB to be quite honest.  I know loads of loads of people who have imported a WB for a fraction of what you can buy a nicely bred horse for in England.

I imported a number of WB's for resale purposes when I lived in England......and I never ever paid more than £700 for them and they were all around aged 7, all up to and beyond medium dressage, good little showjumpers etc.  

Most people I know who have purchased an already imported WB have never spent much more than £5,000 on them....hence the dealers markup is enormous!

So your theory about them spending fortunes on these horses is not the experience I have; most buy them because they are so much cheaper than other horses on the market and most of them are pretty capable horses.  They suit a budget and they generally do a decent enough job.


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## MotherOfChickens (2 June 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
Maybe British breeders should take some advice from continetal breeders as they then may actually stay in business and make buying a british bred horse a viable option.

But whilst people insist on breeding from lame old rubbish and stallion owners continue putting their stallions to such horses, british bred horses are going to remain either inferior or way too expensive if they are actually half decent. 

[/ QUOTE ]

*applauds*


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## airedale (2 June 2007)

spottysport - you have seen the same horses I have
also seen the ones just imported from the continent - germany and holland - where they can be tacked up - taken into the school and do tempi changes, pirouettes, etc etc 

now unless they were trained to do that over the channel then they must be miracle horses to have learnt those things on the lorry bringing them to the UK....!!!!

I've seen lots of unsound and dead imported horses at 6 and 7 and 8 - so all this continetnal breeding has to be doing a lot wrong..........apart from charging british fools a lot of money for rubbish


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## Tia (2 June 2007)

I have to say the ones I imported were never unsound physically......mine all had major psychological problems which took time for them to overcome.

But I totally agree with you on the capabilities of these horses at very young ages - this has also been my experience.  Perhaps things have changed recently as my last import was in July 2004 and apart from her not knowing what grass was, she was eminently saleable shortly afterwards, and yes she was perfectly competent at performing every movement you are talking of; as were all of the rest of them.


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## spottysport (2 June 2007)

In my experience, they cost a lot of money, a lot to feed - both one's I have known were un-naturally HUGE, and their owner couldn't ride one side of them! I asked my (not inexperienced) vet what his opinion was and overall their problems were MANMADE. Ie. they are breeding bigger and flashier CRAP, that is not designed to last the distance. Buying one, you might get short term success - but long term hassle! This is my opinion, from having to look one in the eye as he was shot. Not good.


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## dieseldog (2 June 2007)

OK - Airedale and Spottysport,

How much are people actually paying for these overpriced Mandmade, bigger falshier crap?

And how much does a british bred horse cost?

I know how much I pay for an import I'm just wondering if we are all talking about the same amount.


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## Tia (2 June 2007)

Oh DD you are so brave....I wanted to ask the very same question  
	
	
		
		
	


	




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## spottysport (2 June 2007)

Both ones that I know of were in excess of 6,000. That is unbroken, but with 'names' in their pedigree.
Both were very personable, lovely, well behaved boys, THAT WERE UNABLE TO LIVE IN A FIELD! They were SO carelessly bred that their skin and feet couldn't take the conditions that they were subjected to!
Names that have passed 'Gradings' are worth Jack-sh*t if the ned can't be turned out for a holiday without getting some awful skin condition!


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## dieseldog (2 June 2007)

But how much is an equivalent british horse in terms of talent and age cost?

Maybe they should have got them vetted?  You've also describred what sounds like a TB to me, Rain Scald does happen in British bred horses as well.


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## spottysport (2 June 2007)

I can assure you it was not rainscald. They both came out in massive lumps as a reaction to sunlight actually. They were both dead by the time they were 6. I actually put one to sleep myself this spring, in essence due to lami. but due to the other major probs he had it was for the best.


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## Tia (2 June 2007)

So around the figure I was talking of then.  Much cheaper than a similarly bred British horse.  As I say, I believe a lot of them are budget horses, suit the rider and do the job asked of them in the majority of circumstances.  Horses becoming ill is another matter and not down to breeding I wouldn't say.


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## spottysport (2 June 2007)

Of course it is down to breeding! Soundness was sacrificed for size and movement! If just ONE of the foals i bred was PTS for any number of illnesses, I would stop breeding from the mare - it is only common sense!!!!!!
Both the horses I have experience of are from the same lines -WITH THE SAME RESULT. Come on, the breeders on the continent can see the British coming - then they start rubbing their hands together! It's bloody disgusting. And no, a 2 yr old decently bred - but spotted or dun - from me would cost a fraction of 6,000


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## Tia (3 June 2007)

What did they both die from?  Presumably the same thing and they were out of the same mare?


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## Governor (3 June 2007)

Quick reply and i've not read all the posts in this thread.

However I own one of these 'mass produced, identikit' dutch horses and like P_G, I wouldn't have bought him unless he was what I was looking for in a horse. I really couldn't give a toss if he was from Bognor or Belgium, and whether or not he is flashy or big - I was very careful about the rate at which he was growing with regards to his diet.

The fact is, the most likely reason he was over here (imported 2 weeks prior to me purchasing him) is that he is substandard compared with horses being produced over there, which gives you some indication of the general quality. But still he's a nicely put together beast with more than enough talent and scope for what I want to do. 

He's not an unsocialised lunatic either and funnily enough he seems oblivious to the fact his name has been changed because the one on his papers was difficult to pronounce. 

I paid a lot less for him than the figures being banded about here, and comparitive to the British bred horses here with so much 'potential'. Quite honestly i'm sick of the amount of British breeders using colour as a selling point (and an excuse to come up with ridiculously inflated prices) when the majority have diabolical confomation because that appears to have such little importance.


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## spottysport (3 June 2007)

They were both too big for their very flat feet (I think - remember they didn't belong to me). The one that I dealt with most this spring developed ringbone, laminitis, and arthritis all before the age of 5. He had to be shod from 2 years old. Add to this the fact that he couldn't be turned out due to sun/fly sensitivity. He could only be taken from the stable to the arena and back again. Don't get me wrong, he had a temperament to die for and could move and jump beautifully, but that's no good if the feet are stuffed. Yes, they were 1/2 brothers.


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