# if your passport is not a proove of ownership what is THEN !!!



## mighty (14 July 2011)

can somebody tell me, if  your passport is not a proof of ownership what is ??

bill of sale ?
chip,
branding


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## pedilia (14 July 2011)

A passport is for identifcation purposes only, as I learnt when my horse was stolen!
Proof of ownership can be- letter from farrier/vet, receipt, vets bills (whic will have yours and horses name)

I have to prove ownership twice, once when he was stolen and currently when claiming LOU


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## Glayva (14 July 2011)

my horse has a german breed passport and it comes with a seperate certificate of ownership.


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## fidleyspromise (14 July 2011)

pedilia said:



			A passport is for identifcation purposes only, as I learnt when my horse was stolen!
Proof of ownership can be- letter from farrier/vet, receipt, vets bills (whic will have yours and horses name)

I have to prove ownership twice, once when he was stolen and currently when claiming LOU
		
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Bill of sale from what I'm aware.  What if you've lost this or didn't get one?  If it was queried, then would a letter from Vet/farrier to say that you do own the horse be sufficient?

Pedilia - A vets bill will have yours and horses name on but say for instance if I was loaning a horse then I would attach the horse onto my account and would pay vet bills so my name and horses name would both come on the invoice but I don't own the horse.

Glayva - That sounds like a much better system.


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## MizzPurpleKitten (14 July 2011)

This is something I've been thinking about for a while now....I got my boy 2 years ago, paid a small token payment for his tack, rugs and worldy posessions and took him home. I completely (foolishly) forgot to ask for a receipt at the time and, although I've asked on numerous occaqsions since I haven't ever received one and I lost all contact with previous owner about a year ago.

Passport is now in my name and legally he is mine, I paid what was asked, I have witnesses to prove this (including the YO of previous owner as she wouldn't let the horse leave the premises before said previous owner paid an outstanding livery bill) but I don't have a piece of paper with it in writing.


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## mighty (15 July 2011)

well we had our horses stolen in belgium found them in england took us two and a half years to get them back and we had all the proof, so what is justice, plus theyt were provided with english passports, although they were all branded, what do you say to that, it cost 160 K laywers fees, pleasant is'nt it


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## mighty (15 July 2011)

pedilia said:



			A passport is for identifcation purposes only, as I learnt when my horse was stolen!
Proof of ownership can be- letter from farrier/vet, receipt, vets bills (whic will have yours and horses name)

I have to prove ownership twice, once when he was stolen and currently when claiming LOU
		
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lucky you found him back


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## jaquelin (15 July 2011)

Technically, a bill of sale.... nothing stops a legal action (see above) if someone wants to dispute ownership.


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## joeanne (15 July 2011)

I feel for you Mighty, I know you not only lost a considerable amount of money getting what was rightfully yours back, but also the heartbreak of them not being fit for the purpose they were intended for in the condition you got them back.
Bill of sale is the ultimate proof, particularly if the vendor can verify the sale.
A microchip and passport only state (much like the logbook of a car) the registered keeper of the horse.
How are the horses now? Recovering from the trauma of what happened I hope?


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## Capriole (15 July 2011)

I have bills of sale, Im quite careful about getting those. Dont quite know how it would work if I ever had to prove ownership of the foals though! Bills of sales from the dams and a copy of the covering certificates I suppose!


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## Zuzan (16 July 2011)

Could you make your own legal document of ownership with id details inc photos and witnessed say by vet and previous owner ???


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## mighty (7 August 2011)

Glayva said:



			my horse has a german breed passport and it comes with a seperate certificate of ownership.
		
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(three of our horses were german were branded had theit birthcerticate and we had bills from vet, farrier and still it took us two years to get them back, and they gor an english pasport no problem, dont the nglish vet's know that when a horse is branded is has papers for sure, but they made the marking and whoops new horse, new name and a different age as well just to make sure you do not find your stolen horse back !!!


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## mighty (7 August 2011)

joeanne said:



			I feel for you Mighty, I know you not only lost a considerable amount of money getting what was rightfully yours back, but also the heartbreak of them not being fit for the purpose they were intended for in the condition you got them back.
Bill of sale is the ultimate proof, particularly if the vendor can verify the sale.
A microchip and passport only state (much like the logbook of a car) the registered keeper of the horse.
How are the horses now? Recovering from the trauma of what happened I hope?
		
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they are recovering


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## mighty (7 August 2011)

it has happened more then once that horses got english passports with a new name a different age, how is this possible, the people who have done this and found out leter should be punished for fraudn and the passport's agency's should check out if the horse is not stolen !!!


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## Maesfen (7 August 2011)

Which passport agency issued those passports Mighty?  I do have my suspicions of course.

Awful that you had to go through all that to get your own property back.


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## Cuffey (7 August 2011)

Maesfen said:



			Which passport agency issued those passports Mighty?  I do have my suspicions of course.

Awful that you had to go through all that to get your own property back.
		
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Horse Passport Agency


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## criso (7 August 2011)

Slightly different system  as my boy is French.
There is nothing on his passport that says who the owner is, it's just an identification document.
When I got him I had to to contact Les Haras Nationaux  in France and send copies of bills of sale etc to arrange transfer of ownership.  So now I am the registered owner with them and this can be looked up if anyone needed to check.


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## pintoarabian (7 August 2011)

All of mine have registration certificates from their breed society, in my case, The Arab Horse Society. Ownership details are on the certificate but it is essential that transfer of ownership details are passed on to the AHS with the certificate for updating, every time the horse changes hands.


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## Sportznight (7 August 2011)

And if you are the breeder of your horse?


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## pintoarabian (7 August 2011)

Same thing in my case. Breeder is recorded on AHS Registration Certificate and if the horse remains with the breeder, that will also be recorded as the owner. A Transfer of Ownership Form is included with the certificate and that should be returned to the AHS with the Registration Certificate on the horse changing hands. The Registration Certificate will be updated with the new owner's details and a new, blank Transfer of Ownership Form will be included should the horse change hands again. Of course, the system will fall down if new owners fail to complete the documents but, for those who do, a Registration Certificate with you named as the owner should be proof positive that the horse belongs to you.


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## Maesfen (7 August 2011)

It behoves everyone to change the ownership details in their passports as soon as the horse changes ownership.
I think all passports should include fixed pages that ask the seller to complete the full address details of the new owner which the new owner needs to sign too before the passport is sent in.  Before the rule about travelling with a passport I would always send the passport in myself when the horse left the yard so that I knew it had been done and would be up to date with the new owner's details.

SN, if you've bred it yourself , the passport will say so and be registered in your name; it should only get changed when you've sold on the horse.


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## Sportznight (7 August 2011)

Maesfen said:



			SN, if you've bred it yourself , the passport will say so and be registered in your name; it should only get changed when you've sold on the horse.
		
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Yes, I know   But it's not proof of ownership for the breeder!


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## piebaldsparkle (7 August 2011)

Passports are a joke and not worth the paper they are written on.

There should only have been ONE authority to issue ALL UK passports, not the numerous mickey mouse agencies that there are.

Additionally all horses should have been required to be chipped and this linked to both the passport and a separate owner certificate.

Mind all the time horses are routinely scanned and chip checked at sales/ports etc...  It is all entirely pointless.


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## Maesfen (7 August 2011)

Sportznight said:



			Yes, I know   But it's not proof of ownership for the breeder!
		
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Lol, never thought about it like that before!  How do you prove that anyone who breeds owns anything until passports are treated as important as car registration papers.


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## Ibblebibble (7 August 2011)

Maesfen said:



			Lol, never thought about it like that before!  How do you prove that anyone who breeds owns anything until passports are treated as important as car registration papers.
		
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ahhh but car log books are not proof of ownership either!!!
 it is all a big mess, i had lost my daughters pony's passport so got vet out, he did ID and microchipped him and off went the paperwork, 10 days later nice new passport for a 15 yr old pony! no queries as to why he needed a new passport at his age which TBH i half expected a grilling for!! he hadn't had a passport for 5 years
theres an ad in my local free-ads for a 1 yr old filly which clearly states there is no passport as they haven't bothered friend of mine was sold 2 ponies last year and the seller had 'forgot' the passports so sent them on, they were both fake


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## Hann (7 August 2011)

The British Hanoverian Horse Society issue a seperate proof of ownership document. The problem is DEFRA will not take any actions about any Passport Issuer who issues a passport to a horse that already has one.


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## joy (7 August 2011)

Sportznight said:



			And if you are the breeder of your horse?
		
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Good point. The two we bought have receipts but the two we bred just have breed passports.


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## VLHIEASTON (7 August 2011)

Mighty...I know which case is your's, what was wrong with your horses when you got them back?

I never did trust that JW, known of her for nearly 20 yrs now, she has an evil eye, I would never trust her with a barge pole, and I'm so sorry she did this to you. She is a low life scumbag!
I don't know the other person involved very well, but I have to say, if she associates with JW then she should not be trusted either.

Glad your horses are back with you.


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## mighty (7 August 2011)

criso said:



			Slightly different system  as my boy is French.
There is nothing on his passport that says who the owner is, it's just an identification document.
When I got him I had to to contact Les Haras Nationaux  in France and send copies of bills of sale etc to arrange transfer of ownership.  So now I am the registered owner with them and this can be looked up if anyone needed to check.
		
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 yes when you buy a selle francais you ahve to send your papers  and the they give you the proof of ownership , good i think better then england there you can register any horse ask a passport and then it is yours


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## mighty (7 August 2011)

VLHIEASTON said:



			Mighty...I know which case is your's, what was wrong with your horses when you got them back?

I never did trust that JW, known of her for nearly 20 yrs now, she has an evil eye, I would never trust her with a barge pole, and I'm so sorry she did this to you. She is a low life scumbag!
I don't know the other person involved very well, but I have to say, if she associates with JW then she should not be trusted either.

Glad your horses are back with you.
		
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 jw sold one of our horses to eo  with another name and a different age, somebody else  sold a horse to hm  with a passport giving another name and age , and the horse was a cripple, they are all  in it surely it will come out one day


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## mighty (7 August 2011)

piebaldsparkle said:



			Passports are a joke and not worth the paper they are written on.

There should only have been ONE authority to issue ALL UK passports, not the numerous mickey mouse agencies that there are.

Additionally all horses should have been required to be chipped and this linked to both the passport and a separate owner certificate.

Mind all the time horses are routinely scanned and chip checked at sales/ports etc...  It is all entirely pointless.
		
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you are right, they don't give a dam, all the want is to pocket the money to make a passport, they don't check anything, even the chips all money making,  we had all our horses chipped, they got stolen,  and they had a british passport with our chipnumbers, so whatever next !!!


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## Fenris (7 August 2011)

Proof of ownership is very difficult.  That is why there is an old saying "Possession is nine tenths of the law."  If you have something in your possession anyone with a claim has to prove their claim in court.

So what to do to prove ownership - of anything, not just animals?

Registration documents are meaningless.  So are chips.  As has already been said, most state they are not proof of ownership, just who happens to be the registered keeper.

Whenever you get an animals or other possession, get a receipt.  If it is a gift then you and whoever is giving it to you should draw up a short document stating that ownership has been transferred, both of you sign it and date it..  It is amazing how many friendships break up because people misunderstand that something has been loaned/given or whatever.

Any transfer of ownership should be documented.

If an animal is born to you keep a photographic record of the animal with its mother and as it grows.  Take regular photos with the days headlines in the photo along with the animal.  Don't assume that the date put on by a camera or phone will be accepted a proof - you can set any date.

Of course, there are lots of other things that can feed into a general picture, but only receipts or transfer of ownership documents will stand up in court.


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## easytraveller (9 August 2011)

Slightly different but still relevant - I part owned a horse with someone.  They decided they wanted to sell.  I had a receipt in my name stating the 50% that I had paid towards the purchase of the horse - the horses passport was however in the name of the other person - BIG MISTAKE - even though I had a receipt in my name and a solicitor in tow the BSJA did not recognise that I had anything to do with the horse whatsoever.  I had asolutely no rights - the op stopped the horse jumping and there was nothing I could do about it!  

I would suggest to anyone whether entering into a partnership or as a single person have your name on every piece of documentation that you can!  Fortunately as someone said in a previous thread 'posession is 9/10th's of the law' and as the horse was in my posession and there were no grounds for complaint or absue in anyway they could not remove the horse from my care.  Still cost a fortune to settle with solicicitors and court cases - so BEWARE!!!!!


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