# Why do some breeders not KC register when both parents are KC?



## Cinnamontoast (5 July 2019)

Itâ€™s Â£17 per pup, but being KC registered appears to add Â£200 to the sale price, having fallen down the puppy advert rabbit hole checking for an adult dog for Karran. Unless a breeder is over the 4 litter limit, why would they not KC register a pedigree? Late night pondering, Iâ€™m not after a debate about pedigree versus non-pedigree, just curious.


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## blackcob (5 July 2019)

Bitch too old or too young, 4 litter limit, 2 litter limit if c-sections, endorsements on the parents. Or plain old lying about their KC registered status.


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## CorvusCorax (5 July 2019)

blackcob said:



			Bitch too old or too young, 4 litter limit, 2 litter limit if c-sections, endorsements on the parents. Or plain old lying about their KC registered status. 

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This. Plus people are tight.


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## Roxylola (5 July 2019)

It allows them to have litters too close together as well as just too many


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## dogatemysalad (6 July 2019)

Perhaps not everyone has a need for a pup to be KC registered and wishes to pay over the odds for a family dog. My Border Terrier came from a crufts champion and was KC registered, but he wasn't overpriced and I've never bothered to register his change of ownership. My equally wonderful collie is not KC registered and I couldn't care less. A good dog, from a good home isn't made better by a piece of paper if you just want a family dog.


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## MurphysMinder (6 July 2019)

dogatemysalad said:



			Perhaps not everyone has a need for a pup to be KC registered and wishes to pay over the odds for a family dog. My Border Terrier came from a crufts champion and was KC registered, but he wasn't overpriced and I've never bothered to register his change of ownership. My equally wonderful collie is not KC registered and I couldn't care less. A good dog, from a good home isn't made better by a piece of paper if you just want a family dog.
		
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 But as has been stated above,  in many cases if the parents are KC reg and the pups are not it means there is a reason why they shouldn't have been bred.  For what it costs I can't see why anyone who could register their pups wouldn't do it,  as you found with your terrier they don't need to be overpriced.  More likely , unregistered pups are cheap because the "breeders" just want to make a quick  profit and shift them quickly.


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## catkin (6 July 2019)

I'm afraid I'd be as cynical and suspicious as I am with the same situation with unregistered ponies - either they are not what they appear and are ineligible, or they are a very poor example of the breed and no advert for the prefix.


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## Aru (6 July 2019)

Its the easiest way to hide your breaking the rules that were set to protect the dogs from overbreeding....or lying about the dogs being registerable at all. 
Not impressed when I see or hear of it. I've yet to hear a reaponsible reason for not registering a "pedigree" puppy.


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## rabatsa (6 July 2019)

I know of one litter of 13 pups where the breeder asked who wanted registered pups and sold the registered ones at nearly twice the price of the others, her reasoning was she did not want to be left with half a dozen pups eating her out of house and home.  Only 8 pups had been pre booked.  The one she kept was one of the unregistered ones as she said she was never going to breed from him.


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## tda (6 July 2019)

All of the above ðŸ¤”ðŸ˜


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## CorvusCorax (6 July 2019)

Also if a pup is unregistered or from unregistered parents, it makes it very hard for the new owners to take up many activities/attain some certifications or avail of certain health testing.


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## suebou (6 July 2019)

We always register if the litter is eligible. In 26 years of breeding gundogs on various sorts (labs, cockers, springers)weâ€™ve only been asked about five times about papers.......we always give full instruction on changing chip and KC paperwork but probably only 50% bother...... not all breeders are bad and not all puppy buyers are saints!


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## ester (6 July 2019)

I'd have no need for a pup to be registered but I'd want to know why it wasn't so that I wasn't funding people who were over breeding bitchest etc.


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## {97702} (6 July 2019)

Just for the purposes of clarification for anyone reading the thread who doesnâ€™t show dogs, there is no such thing as a â€œCrufts championâ€ - I know it is a phrase which has tended to cause confusion.  

Obviously Iâ€™ve been around KC registered dogs all my life, as have a lot of other forum users, and for me Aru has neatly summed it up in her post ðŸ˜Š perhaps gundog owners are less bothered but Iâ€™m used to the KC papers being correctly handed over with the pedigree and other paperwork at the time of taking your puppy, whether the purchasers are getting a much loved family pet or a show prospect


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## blackcob (6 July 2019)

CorvusCorax said:



			Also if a pup is unregistered or from unregistered parents, it makes it very hard for the new owners to take up many activities/attain some certifications or avail of certain health testing.
		
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Yup, never say never about your 'pet' dog. Mine would have had podium finishes at European and national championship level had she been able to compete in the breed category, as it is she had to go in open with the hounds. I'm not too salty about it as we were never going to set the racing world on fire (they would have been podium places only by default! ) but it also came at a time when the governing bodies were being a bit crap about respecting the origins of the nordic and freight categories. It would have been nice to have another dog making up the numbers and demonstrating the demand for separate classification. 



Levrier said:



			Just for the purposes of clarification for anyone reading the thread who doesnâ€™t show dogs, there is no such thing as a â€œCrufts championâ€ - I know it is a phrase which has tended to cause confusion.
		
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I'm glad someone said it, pedants' corner over here


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## CorvusCorax (6 July 2019)

blackcob said:



			Yup, never say never about your 'pet' dog. Mine would have had podium finishes at European and national championship level had she been able to compete in the breed category, as it is she had to go in open with the hounds. I'm not too salty about it as we were never going to set the racing world on fire (they would have been podium places only by default! ) but it also came at a time when the governing bodies were being a bit crap about respecting the origins of the nordic and freight categories. It would have been nice to have another dog making up the numbers and demonstrating the demand for separate classification.
		
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Yep. There's a girl here who bought a dog as a pet, she's turning out to be a great trainer and he's showing real aptitude, but because someone couldn't be arsed registering the father, they'll be stuck at basic entry level stuff and will never be able to get the required health tests for breeding and top competition, because he can't be registered. 
It's a real pity.


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## AdorableAlice (6 July 2019)

Many breeders have now been caught by the new DEFRA legislation under the new Animal Welfare Act 2018.  A Council licence has far higher welfare requirements than KC, which is just a registration, not an indicator of standards.

The Council licensing regime is very costly so money is a factor.  Personally I would buy off a licensed breeder rather than KC registered breeder.


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## CorvusCorax (6 July 2019)

I'm a critic of most kennel clubs and the English Kennel Club isn't perfect by a long shot (no DNA proof, no minimum health requirements to register pups etc) but unless your breed has its' own registry, it's the only way of proving that the supposedly pedigree dog you've bought, is what it says on the tin.


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## Cinnamontoast (6 July 2019)

AdorableAlice said:



			The Council licensing regime is very costly so money is a factor.  Personally I would buy off a licensed breeder rather than KC registered breeder.
		
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I reckon if someone goes to the bother of council registering (because theyâ€™re breeding multiple dogs ðŸ¤¬) then theyâ€™re going to maximise their profits by KC registering. That seems to be the case, having seen council registration and KC registration mentioned together when down my rabbit hole last night.


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## windand rain (6 July 2019)

In some cases breeders who want pet homes do not want their pups shown, bred from or be anything but family pets I also think some flout the rules or simply lie I have always had pedigree registered pups we have bred a few litters of pups over the 50 years we have had dogs all were registered but I was rarely asked for their papers and they were hardly ever transferred to their new owners name. Some simply didnt care whether it was registered or not It is not somehing I would do now a days though as the selling was just too stressful bit like horses I find it far more stressful to sell one than buy one


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## CorvusCorax (7 July 2019)

windand rain said:



			In some cases breeders who want pet homes do not want their pups shown, bred from or be anything but family pets I also think some flout the rules or simply lie I have always had pedigree registered pups we have bred a few litters of pups over the 50 years we have had dogs all were registered but I was rarely asked for their papers and they were hardly ever transferred to their new owners name. Some simply didnt care whether it was registered or not It is not somehing I would do now a days though as the selling was just too stressful bit like horses I find it far more stressful to sell one than buy one
		
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That's what endorsements are for.
In my own breed if you buy a dog in Germany you have to sign a contract saying it's either for pet or show/sport. 

Other countries/standalone breed registries have managed to successfully incentivise responsible breeding to the extent that no one really wants to buy a pedigree dog without all the whistles and bells. Breeding bans are issued on animals with poor health results.

Having said all that, there is no way to stop people breeding their dogs unless you go there and physically get in between the dog and the bitch....


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## Cinnamontoast (7 July 2019)

I suspect a lot of endorsed dogs are bred, which would also explain why I keep seeing adverts saying parents are KC, pups arenâ€™t. It is, as CC says, impossible to stop people using endorsed dogs, despite contracts being signed. 

My next lot will hopefully be from a particular breeder of working dogs, although she produces typically smaller types and Iâ€™m now used to oversized turbo versions! Iâ€™m tempted to look at show types which are bigger but command eye watering prices too!


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## AdorableAlice (7 July 2019)

Cinnamontoast said:



			I reckon if someone goes to the bother of council registering (because theyâ€™re breeding multiple dogs ðŸ¤¬) then theyâ€™re going to maximise their profits by KC registering. That seems to be the case, having seen council registration and KC registration mentioned together when down my rabbit hole last night.
		
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Yes you are right, but they have to go to the bother and huge expense of getting licensed to be able to sell the puppies.  The legislation now gives power to licensing authorities to prosecute unlicensed breeders, 12 months in prison and/or unlimited fine.  Those breeders holding 3 or more years KC registration can achieve a higher council licence status than those without.

The under ground breeders are being pushed up now and the public are slowly realising that the cheap puppy purchase, that often dies or costs an arm and leg at the vets to fix, is actually funding puppy farming.  There is much more work to be done in the public education arena, but gradually the public are realising they must not buy cheap, poorly puppies from someones coal house or in a layby.


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## MurphysMinder (8 July 2019)

.

The under ground breeders are being pushed up now and the public are slowly realising that the cheap puppy purchase, that often dies or costs an arm and leg at the vets to fix, is actually funding puppy farming.  There is much more work to be done in the public education arena, but gradually the public are realising they must not buy cheap, poorly puppies from someones coal house or in a layby.[/QUOTE]

Unfortunately I think like a lot of these rules it seems to be mainly affecting the decent breeders who go to the trouble of getting a license,  whereas the ones who have a dog and a bitch and therefore feel the need to produce puppies carry on as before,  very few local authorities seem to be interested in stopping them.


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## {97702} (8 July 2019)

Personally I would be very reluctant to buy a puppy from a council registered breeder - that for me is a sign that the breeders breed too much! 

The Kennel Club is very far from perfect, but at least they ostensibly work to improve the standard of each breed.... well in theory they do.... ðŸ™„


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## AdorableAlice (8 July 2019)

Levrier said:



			Personally I would be very reluctant to buy a puppy from a council registered breeder - that for me is a sign that the breeders breed too much!

The Kennel Club is very far from perfect, but at least they ostensibly work to improve the standard of each breed.... well in theory they do.... ðŸ™„
		
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You couldn't be more wrong, the new legislation catches the majority of breeders because it enforces a licence on breeders of single litters if they are high value.  Only needing a licence if you breed more than 3 litters per year is not a governing factor.


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## CorvusCorax (8 July 2019)

None of that helps with provenance, though, only registration with a recognised body can do that (with the caveat that a true registration requires DNA proof, hopefully one day the KC will catch up on that one day).


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## {97702} (8 July 2019)

AdorableAlice said:



			You couldn't be more wrong, the new legislation catches the majority of breeders because it enforces a licence on breeders of single litters if they are high value.  Only needing a licence if you breed more than 3 litters per year is not a governing factor.
		
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The likelihood of a person who is breeding a single litter getting a council licence is, in my experience, absolutely zero unfortunately.....


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## MurphysMinder (8 July 2019)

Levrier said:



			The likelihood of a person who is breeding a single litter getting a council licence is, in my experience, absolutely zero unfortunately.....
		
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Unfortunately some genuine exhibitors/ breeders who have only the occasional litter have been caught out by this,  it seems to very much depend on your local authority.


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## Cinnamontoast (8 July 2019)

CorvusCorax said:



			None of that helps with provenance, though, only registration with a recognised body can do that (with the caveat that a true registration requires DNA proof, hopefully one day the KC will catch up on that one day).
		
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Thatâ€™s the trouble, tho, isnâ€™t it? No-one is present at the mating bar the breeders/owners, so genetically, the pups could be the progeny of god knows which dogs. I wouldnâ€™t point fingers, but I dare say some KC registered breeders have not always told the truth about the sire/dam. Iâ€™m thinking of my dogsâ€™ breeder who put Drakeshead on the fake pedigree, yes, Iâ€™m a mug.


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## CorvusCorax (8 July 2019)

That's why a DNA-linked database for each breed is the way forward  maybe one day. 
Compulsory microchipping is a small step forward, although still open to fraud and as with all these things, do people who do it, care, once the pups are born? It's generally the new owner who suffers from being 'sold a pup'.

There are a lot of crap breeders out there who are very plausible and I have had to tell people who have spent five figure sums that their fancy laminated documents aren't actually real  

It's why it's always a good idea to seek lots of advice before spending money on a pedigree puppy. A good breeder should be happy for a purchaser/advisor/mentor to review all the relevant paperwork.


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## stormox (9 July 2019)

The kennel club and kennel club shows have ruined many lovely breeds...


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## CorvusCorax (9 July 2019)

If the breed clubs are unhappy, then it is within their gift to change things, make improvements etc.


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## {97702} (9 July 2019)

CorvusCorax said:



			If the breed clubs are unhappy, then it is within their gift to change things, make improvements etc.
		
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Exactly so - and in my experience they donâ€™t, they just sit and whinge and blame the KC â˜¹ï¸


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## AdorableAlice (9 July 2019)

Levrier said:



			The likelihood of a person who is breeding a single litter getting a council licence is, in my experience, absolutely zero unfortunately.....
		
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The internet sites are working with authorities in the 'no licence number - no advert, process.  One site is resisting at the moment but things are going the right way.

A single litter with the breeder keeping one or two for themselves isn't a huge issue and in the main that set up is genuine dog keepers with no issues for welfare.  DEFRA have done a huge amount of work to protect dogs and their welfare in the breeding areas.


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## {97702} (9 July 2019)

AdorableAlice said:



			The internet sites are working with authorities in the 'no licence number - no advert, process.  One site is resisting at the moment but things are going the right way.

A single litter with the breeder keeping one or two for themselves isn't a huge issue and in the main that set up is genuine dog keepers with no issues for welfare.  DEFRA have done a huge amount of work to protect dogs and their welfare in the breeding areas.
		
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I guess this is a quite localised depending on your geographical area - Iâ€™m closely involved with a number of rescue charities and they definitely havenâ€™t seen any improvement in this area sadly


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