# Please help. Legal issue



## First pony G (26 April 2013)

Hi.  Maybe a long one sorry.
I bought my pony 8 months ago. Was sold as bomproof and for complete novice.  The woman knew i wanted my own inexperienced 14. 12 and 7 year olds to learn to ride on her. First weekend myself and my daughter rode her in trot she dropped her shoulder, spun and got us off. I texted the woman, she said she could see no reason why she would have done this and she,d never done it before. Ok so I put it down to new yard, change in situations etc etc.  I decided with my instructor to start from scratch take verything really slowly so never cantered at all.  3 mths later my daughter got on a experienced rider got her to canter she dropped her shoulder spun and got her of. My daughter had to go to a & e with a wrist injury.  The next day an experienced rider rode her then cantered and the pony did the same she said she then proceeded to try to kick her when she was down, mmm. We decided to check the saddle, got a new one which is now fine. At the same time i advertised on different places to see if I could find out her history. Straight away I was contacted by someone who two weeks previous to me buying her had bought her on a trial basis. She said the pony did exactly the same with her daughter but on the last time really went for her, she reckoned she was evil as 'she really wanted to have her daughter'  she said if the seller hadnt taken her back she would have got her put down. The people at my yard thought this was really extreme and said that they thought that was rubbish as the pony is so lovely, plasid and gentle, you can do anything with her.  I also had another reply from the daughter of the seller saying that yes the pony had dne these things.  I was advised to sell her but didnt want to give up on her and just pass her on again, to who knws what?  I decided to try to find somewhere to school her and in the mean time have just been having lessons on her, just walk and trot and she's been Great.  This week though she has been a bit naughty again with both my daughter and another rider.  Tonight my friend who is highly experienced and great rider was just walking and trotting with her trying to get her to soften on the bit when she dropped her shoulder, spun and got her off. This time I saw it for myself, she tried twice to kick her on the ground.  
Now I have no excuses left and knowhere else to go, she is dangerous for my children to ride her never mind myself.  I have kept all my emails from the seller saying how wonderful and safe she was, ideal for a novice, however she failed to tell me she had sold her two weeks before I got her and she was sent back because she had done these things to the buyers daughter.  She told the buyer she would re school her but she just re advertised her.  Her daughter has also said in an email she did it with them.  I really need some advise on where I stand legally.  This pony obviously was sold by misrepresentation and I have proof.  However, it has been 8 mths since I got her and maybe that is too long to claim anything back? I did not want to give up on her and believed she would eventually be ok given time. I have continually been advised to 'get rid', but really believed in her, I was wrong.  Does anyone know what I should do? I really think I should have some comeback with the seller??


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## be positive (26 April 2013)

You possibly have a case as it was known behaviour but it is 8 months on and the costs of taking it further, proving it and even if you win getting any money back will probably not be worthwhile unless it is a fairly high value pony.

How old is the pony, it could be a schooling issue which can be resolved with correct work.
Did you try it properly, see the pony canter with the seller and your children, try it in a field as well as in an arena, did your instructor go with you to see them ride, did you ask for its history, references from a local PC where it had been ridden by children, is the passport up to date with previous owners listed, did you get it vetted. Have you had a vet to check it out physically, there could be numerous reasons for the behaviour some of which may be treated easily. 
I have every sympathy for your situation but put the above to show there is a lot to buying and that the old saying "buyer beware" still applies you really need to try and find out at much as you can before buying, taking the word of the seller can lead to situations such as you are now in, the previous buyer had better advisers and managed to send the pony back you have not been so well advised and it may be too late to do so.


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## First pony G (26 April 2013)

Hi, thanks for your reply. I did go into this as a first time buyer and very much on impulse. She was £1600. I went with my friend who actually looking back is not that experienced really. I only rode her for about 10 min as did my daughter and friend and that was it and only in the arena. i would say we are all very much novice. I got her a 2nd stage vetting which was finetheowner wouldn't let her have a 5 stage as she said she was too unfit. I wonder if that was because she would do something bad? I did think about getting a vet to check her but I did get a full physio exam on her a few weeks ago and she was ok. Tonight though it was nothing strenuous se just decided she didn't want to do what she was asked to chucked her off and spun round to kick her.  She's quite intelligent, she softens waits till your relaxed and off your guard then goes for it.  I really love her to bits and have bonded with her over the winter, this is so hard. Tbh I'd rather give her away for free to someone who will look after her and keep her forever than risk someone getting her who will be nasty if she does something wrong. My kids are all devistated it's really horrible and all because tis woman sold her under false pretences!!!


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## First pony G (26 April 2013)

It's not really the dropping the shoulder and spinning that I'm worried about as she can be schooled for that. The problem is she tries to kick you once she's dumped you and that is just to dangerous, especially with children riding.


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## Zebedee (27 April 2013)

Go online NOW & issue proceedings through the small claims court, which is neither difficult not expensive. You will need the person who tried her out prior to you to be prepared to give evidence, & also those who have witnessed the agressive behavior since you have had her. You have quite a solid case if you can get the corroborating evidence even though you have left  it for this length of time.


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## First pony G (27 April 2013)

Thank you very much I was thinking about that route. I will definately do that. The woman that trialled her was so angry that she sold her again as a 'safe for children and complete novice'. She did say to me she would be prepared to speak up for us, I will phone her today.  I am just devistated about this now reality has kicked in I am worried about her future. She's been so molicuddled since we got her. If this woman took her back, though very unlikely, she would just stick her out in a field without rugs or anything it's so horrible


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## Tammytoo (27 April 2013)

I agree with taking proceedings against such an unscrupulous dealer who is prepared to put children at risk.

However, in the meantime, could you afford to have a full vet work-up with x.rays just to make sure there is no long-standing injury?  A physio cannot categorically say there are no problems unless she has x.ray eyes!

It does sound pain related - we had a pony who, whilst not kicking out, did used to drop a shoulder and buck when asked to canter.  She had hock spavins initially diagnosed but on x.ray it was found she had fractured a bone in  her hock at some time in the past.

If you really can't solve the pony's problems it would be kinder to have her pts then risk her ending up at the sales and being passed from person to person,  unless you could afford to keep her as a pet.

What a horrible experience for you.


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## lamlyn2012 (27 April 2013)

Before you do anything speak to a solicitor. You may have free legal cover on your home insurance policy. If not many offer a first consultation free. you will at least know your chance of success then.


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## putasocinit (30 April 2013)

What a good little teach the child to ride pony you have, sorry but when i was learning to ride back in the 60's you got on with it, it made you a better rider, you learnt to read the signs of the horse, you learnt how to sit a buck etc. now a pony that drops its shoulder will always do it on the same side and if you watch the ears they will give you an indication when to keep the other rein tighter, catch her in the drop by pulling on that rein, again keep the head up, ponys/horses cant buck with their heads up, sit deeper in the saddle, toes up, heels down, use a neck strap, teach her she cant get you off and i bet she will give up, she will also do it when she has no respect for the rider e.g. She can feel they are not as confident as they should be, she will do it more in canter because it is a faster speed and the rider has possibly relaxed on the rein because of the type of gait it is.  Is she sound, because she could be sore on a particular rein hence the dropping of the shoulder on that side.

Sorry i cant post and say bad bad pony because you can work through it. I had a tb ex racer that started broncing every time i took her into the school, if i hadnt learnt how to ride a buck, i can honestly say i would have fallen off and no doubt hurt myself and thats thanks to those naughty little ponies my parents made me ride.


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## Kaylum (1 May 2013)

My first horse was totally ott and too much for me.  He reared, shied and was a right idiot, but I learnt how to school him, how to ride so I could stay on.  He taught me so much.  That aside if you can't cope go down the court route or send it away for schooling.  Also having been seen riders get their own horses after riding school experience they think they can ride and you never learn to school or in fact ride until you get your own horse that's not worked for a good few hours a day.


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## asmp (1 May 2013)

My daughter's first pony learnt to drop his shoulder and get her off (once 5 times in one lesson!). He didn't do it when we first bought him but unfortunately once he realised he could do it (ponies learn fast), he did it a lot, including after jumping a jump.  He did give my daughter a very good seat but he never kicked when she was down - that would really worry me.  I can't help you with any info about claiming against the previous owner though - just wanted to say that now he's learnt how to do it, I doubt he'll stop.


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## Orangehorse (1 May 2013)

It is all very well to say that "I had a really bad pony and got through it."  The OP is a mother who bought a safe pony for her children.  OK, I had naughty ponies, one was a terrible rearer, but my mother never saw it perform!  In all the naughty ponies I had, none of them ever tried to kick me when I fell off.  This pony has also got rid of experienced riders, it is well practiced in the art.

OP, you have excellent evidence.  Try the Small Claims route.


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## wench (1 May 2013)

I suggest you get the vet and get a full work up done on the horse to eliminate any physical issues.


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## lamlyn2012 (1 May 2013)

Orange horse,  are you a solicitor or something. 
I would be a little gaurded on the "excellent evidence".  If it was a private sale OP would have to prove the pony did this before purchase and that the seller knew about it. Burdon of proof is with OP. Pony may have done it with others but that does not necessarily prove the seller knew. It may be the case but proving it is not so easy.


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## TommisMum (1 May 2013)

2 points: 
1) if the woman has sold more than 4 (or is it 6 horses) in ayear then she is a dealer and you have a case. If she shasnt then it is buyer beware and you will have figth particularly after 8 months.
2) Have you tried a beahvourist personally I would get Richard Maxwell as he helped us with a VERY nappy bucking pony that could keep bucking for 45 minutes .....
Said pony is now well mannered and good to be around
 - that said pony was not vicious


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## Shay (1 May 2013)

You have no legal recourse if this was a private seller.  If it was a dealer then you need to inform trading standards as well as making a claim.  I'm afraid it isn't as simple as making a claim through the SCC.  The BHS has a legal advice line if you are a member.

But you do also have to be aware that if you win you might get your money back and be left with the horse (not too bad...) but the dealer could re-claim the horse and destroy it.  Sadly dealers will on occasion threaten this to get unwitting buyers to back off.

If you don't want to sell or PTS (and I can completely understand!) then it might be better to focus on getting her sorted out rather than getting your money back.


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## Kat (5 May 2013)

It is highly unlikely that it will be financially worthwhile going through the courts. Especially if it was a private sale rather than  dealer.  If the pony is otherwise good I would invest some cash in a vet check and some schooling from someone used to dealing with problem ponies.  If your "experienced rider" is falling off due to a dropped shoulder and spin then she isn't good enough for the job. You need someone very experienced with a very sticky bum. A post in tack room might help you find someone local.


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## Queenbee (6 May 2013)

First pony G said:



			Hi.  Maybe a long one sorry.
I bought my pony 8 months ago. Was sold as bomproof and for complete novice.  The woman knew i wanted my own inexperienced 14. 12 and 7 year olds to learn to ride on her. First weekend myself and my daughter rode her in trot she dropped her shoulder, spun and got us off. I texted the woman, she said she could see no reason why she would have done this and she,d never done it before. Ok so I put it down to new yard, change in situations etc etc.  I decided with my instructor to start from scratch take verything really slowly so never cantered at all.  3 mths later my daughter got on a experienced rider got her to canter she dropped her shoulder spun and got her of. My daughter had to go to a & e with a wrist injury.  The next day an experienced rider rode her then cantered and the pony did the same she said she then proceeded to try to kick her when she was down, mmm. We decided to check the saddle, got a new one which is now fine. At the same time i advertised on different places to see if I could find out her history. Straight away I was contacted by someone who two weeks previous to me buying her had bought her on a trial basis. She said the pony did exactly the same with her daughter but on the last time really went for her, she reckoned she was evil as 'she really wanted to have her daughter'  she said if the seller hadnt taken her back she would have got her put down. The people at my yard thought this was really extreme and said that they thought that was rubbish as the pony is so lovely, plasid and gentle, you can do anything with her.  I also had another reply from the daughter of the seller saying that yes the pony had dne these things.  I was advised to sell her but didnt want to give up on her and just pass her on again, to who knws what?  I decided to try to find somewhere to school her and in the mean time have just been having lessons on her, just walk and trot and she's been Great.  This week though she has been a bit naughty again with both my daughter and another rider.  Tonight my friend who is highly experienced and great rider was just walking and trotting with her trying to get her to soften on the bit when she dropped her shoulder, spun and got her off. This time I saw it for myself, she tried twice to kick her on the ground.  
Now I have no excuses left and knowhere else to go, she is dangerous for my children to ride her never mind myself.  I have kept all my emails from the seller saying how wonderful and safe she was, ideal for a novice, however she failed to tell me she had sold her two weeks before I got her and she was sent back because she had done these things to the buyers daughter.  She told the buyer she would re school her but she just re advertised her.  Her daughter has also said in an email she did it with them.  I really need some advise on where I stand legally.  This pony obviously was sold by misrepresentation and I have proof.  However, it has been 8 mths since I got her and maybe that is too long to claim anything back? I did not want to give up on her and believed she would eventually be ok given time. I have continually been advised to 'get rid', but really believed in her, I was wrong.  Does anyone know what I should do? I really think I should have some comeback with the seller??
		
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Did you ever get around to turning the pony out properly instead of leaving her stabled 22/23 hrs a day?  And stop feeding her 8-10 carrots a day?  Just asking?  The pony is young and possibly has learnt some bad habits.  To be honest from what you have described about your own level of experience in your past thread I don't think you are anywhere near experienced enough to tackle this and it is very concerning and negligent of the seller to sell you this mare and not disclose the previous incident if indeed this horse did what you've been told before you purchased her. However, I doubt your ever going to get to the bottom of what this mare is really like with the kind of set up and level of experience you have described.  In all honesty,  its a young horse probably trying it on, it's learnt it can ditch a rider and thinks its a pretty damn cool way to get out of work.  You even admit that the others at your yard think the horse is lovely.  The horse is too much for you, cut your losses sell honestly or contact a dealer for a part exchange for something suitable.  You don't sound anywhere near capable of dealing with this and I do not mean to offend.


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## First pony G (6 May 2013)

Thanks everyone for your replies. I have now contacted the lady who trialled Ginger and she is determined to speak up for me in court against the seller. 
In the mean time I have decided to first get the vet to check her and hopefully get her an X-ray too just to be sure there in nothing physically wrong.  That being ok she is going to Paddy Gracey (intelligent horsemanship) for a few weeks  he will assess her and hopefully retrain her. If he comes back and tells me she is unsafe then I've done the best I can for her and will have to try to find somewhere suitable for her.  I had put her up for sale last week. Many people replied but I just could not let her go. I was completely honest about her and people still wanted to take her. i was selling her for just hacking because shes great with that. i said she hates schooling and said what she does. I just don't trust that people will listen to me and use her for schooling then abuse her and pass her on again. Yes I am inexperienced but I have some very experienced people working with me now and I believe I can make this work as they do. I just hope we are right.  If she wasn't such a sweet natured safe pony in every other way I would have got ridd of her ages ago. If i bought another pony it will come with a whole new set of challenges of their own.  Once she returns from paddy I have someone at my yard (who rode at badmington grass routes) she will not get her off!! she will help carry on her training when she can. 
Queenbee, I tried very hard to get her turned out more in the winter sometimes I would get about 5 or 6 hours but that was only on a little area and only because I had someone to bring her in for me when she arrived in the morning.  That won't happen this winter.  I was only able to get that because everyone was happy just to leave there's in. We cannot use the fields in the winter as they are just to wet. There were 12 horses for 12 Acres. In  this part of the country winter turnout is just not there the grounds are too wet. No she's not been getting the carrots either but maybe one or two and an apple if I have them.


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## First pony G (6 May 2013)

putasocinit said:



			What a good little teach the child to ride pony you have, sorry but when i was learning to ride back in the 60's you got on with it, it made you a better rider, you learnt to read the signs of the horse, you learnt how to sit a buck etc. now a pony that drops its shoulder will always do it on the same side and if you watch the ears they will give you an indication when to keep the other rein tighter, catch her in the drop by pulling on that rein, again keep the head up, ponys/horses cant buck with their heads up, sit deeper in the saddle, toes up, heels down, use a neck strap, teach her she cant get you off and i bet she will give up, she will also do it when she has no respect for the rider e.g. She can feel they are not as confident as they should be, she will do it more in canter because it is a faster speed and the rider has possibly relaxed on the rein because of the type of gait it is.  Is she sound, because she could be sore on a particular rein hence the dropping of the shoulder on that side.

Sorry i cant post and say bad bad pony because you can work through it. I had a tb ex racer that started broncing every time i took her into the school, if i hadnt learnt how to ride a buck, i can honestly say i would have fallen off and no doubt hurt myself and thats thanks to those naughty little ponies my parents made me ride.
		
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 Thank you so much for your post. I have a real gut feeling I can get through this eventually to with lots of patience, bonding time and many many lessons starting from the bottom and working our way up together. My daughter and other children will just have to wait until she's ok. I bought her for life and I won't give up on her unless I have absolutely no choices left. Insperational, thanks again


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## FairyLights (9 May 2013)

putasocinit said:



			What a good little teach the child to ride pony you have, sorry but when i was learning to ride back in the 60's you got on with it, it made you a better rider, you learnt to read the signs of the horse, you learnt how to sit a buck etc. now a pony that drops its shoulder will always do it on the same side and if you watch the ears they will give you an indication when to keep the other rein tighter, catch her in the drop by pulling on that rein, again keep the head up, ponys/horses cant buck with their heads up, sit deeper in the saddle, toes up, heels down, use a neck strap, teach her she cant get you off and i bet she will give up, she will also do it when she has no respect for the rider e.g. She can feel they are not as confident as they should be, she will do it more in canter because it is a faster speed and the rider has possibly relaxed on the rein because of the type of gait it is.  Is she sound, because she could be sore on a particular rein hence the dropping of the shoulder on that side.

Sorry i cant post and say bad bad pony because you can work through it. I had a tb ex racer that started broncing every time i took her into the school, if i hadnt learnt how to ride a buck, i can honestly say i would have fallen off and no doubt hurt myself and thats thanks to those naughty little ponies my parents made me ride.
		
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i agree with this post.


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## hnmisty (9 May 2013)

^^ well yes, little *****s do teach you to stick...however, there is quite a big problem IMO if the pony then tries to kick you after unceremoniously dumping you on the floor. Especially if the pony was sold to you as suitable for a novice, and for small children! 

Can't offer any advice on the legal side, but would like to wish you good luck


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## First pony G (9 May 2013)

Thanks, well actually when my friend came off 2 weeks ago I saw her do a buck it wasn't a kick and I'm sure she wasn't backing up to buck either. 3 of us saw the same thing from the same place its funny we seem to have different accounts of what happened. The thing is though she just stays where she is when you come off and jumps around and she will be excited. I've came off twice in trot and she just stood looking at me. 
Do you think it's possible that the people riding her were causing her anxiety or pain, or both? When she went on the trial with the previous buyer she had just arrived when the girl came off and the woman saw her kick out. In the end of the day it's a survival thing, how is she to know she's not going to be attacked by them when she does something wrong?


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