# Mind blown!!!!!!!!



## Keira 8888 (10 October 2021)

Hi guys,

Happy Sunday! Hope you are all well.

What a day I have had!!!!! I enlisted the help of a jockey to help me with Prince - I wanted to see how he reacted with someone confident!

This guy had him trotting around a busy roundabout with 30 minutes of meeting him! I couldn’t believe my eyes! He stood on his back, mounted from the floor with no stirrups, flapped a branch of leaves around him while riding and Prince didn’t bat an eye lid!

Then he asked me to get my hat, and I rode him for the first time in 6 months! 

Am so happy! He is going to work with us every day from now on and said that Prince was a wonderful sort who just needed firm handling. Even my daughter rode him again!

It’s been the most amazing day. 😍😍😍


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## TheOldTrout (10 October 2021)

Congratulations! You must be so pleased and proud.


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## EllenJay (10 October 2021)

Good news.
Not critising but what was he achieving by standing on his back? 💁‍♀️


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## Pearlsasinger (10 October 2021)

wonderful!


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## poiuytrewq (10 October 2021)

Amazing news! You must be thrilled. 
The standing on backs thing I know is a real bug bear with everyone but let’s face it no one would attempt to stand on a lunatics back and if someone does it on a horse I think it can give the owner confidence in thinking “if x stood up on him and he didn’t bat an eyelid then he’s pretty tolerant” 🤷‍♀️
All these little things can help install confidence, I imagine that’s what this guy was trying to do…. and did by the sounds of it!


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## Fjord (10 October 2021)

Yay!!!


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## paddy555 (10 October 2021)

EllenJay said:



			Good news.
Not critising but what was he achieving by standing on his back? 💁‍♀️
		
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for a horse that reared he probably achieved everything in Keira's eyes. 

well done to both of you Keira. Did you think this would ever happen? He's done you proud, many would have given up.


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## Laurac13 (10 October 2021)

Hi Keira

firstly i want to say you are the most amazing owner and I know you love Prince more than anything 😘 but if Prince has kissing spines, a guy ‘with a firm approach’ is not the way forward eventually if your horse is in pain he will explode and hurt someone
Sorry if I missed anything I am not on the forum all the time 
I was expecting an update with a rehab approach to the kissing spines ie long lining getting him building muscle and building his top line etc
I hope I haven’t upset you but seeing some bloke standing on his back isn’t what I was expecting 
I do think you are wonderful but maybe misguided with the chap x


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## Keith_Beef (10 October 2021)

Keira 8888 said:



			Hi guys,

Happy Sunday! Hope you are all well.

What a day I have had!!!!! I enlisted the help of a jockey to help me with Prince - I wanted to see how he reacted with someone confident!

This guy had him trotting around a busy roundabout with 30 minutes of meeting him! I couldn’t believe my eyes! He stood on his back, mounted from the floor with no stirrups, flapped a branch of leaves around him while riding and Prince didn’t bat an eye lid!

Then he asked me to get my hat, and I rode him for the first time in 6 months!

Am so happy! He is going to work with us every day from now on and said that Prince was a wonderful sort who just needed firm handling. Even my daughter rode him again!

It’s been the most amazing day. 😍😍😍
		
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What a great turnaround!

Who's that jumping onto Prince's back in a skirt?


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## D66 (10 October 2021)

Confidence.
Go girl go!


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## ycbm (10 October 2021)

Laurac13 said:



			Hi Keira

firstly i want to say you are the most amazing owner and I know you love Prince more than anything 😘 but if Prince has kissing spines, a guy ‘with a firm approach’ is not the way forward eventually if your horse is in pain he will explode and hurt someone
Sorry if I missed anything I am not on the forum all the time
I was expecting an update with a rehab approach to the kissing spines ie long lining getting him building muscle and building his top line etc
I hope I haven’t upset you but seeing some bloke standing on his back isn’t what I was expecting
I do think you are wonderful but maybe misguided with the chap x
		
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I'm really sorry Keira, I too think you have been a wonderful owner for Prince,  but this is not the way to rehab a horse with kissing spines which were about to be medicated by your vet,  you've been badly advised there.


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## Tihamandturkey (10 October 2021)

ycbm said:



			I'm really sorry Keira, I too think you have been a wonderful owner for Prince,  but this is not the way to rehab a horse with kissing spines which were about to be medicated by your vet,  you've been badly advised there.
		
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Oh dear - I agree with this 🙁


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## poiuytrewq (10 October 2021)

I didn’t realise he has KS 
That changes things but I wouldn’t diss the guy instantly for standing. Did he know the horse had back issues?


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## nikicb (10 October 2021)

Oh, I actually thought you had been hacked when you posted this.  This just doesn't sit right.  I thought you had retired Prince.


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## Cinnamontoast (10 October 2021)

Kissing spine? And he stood on his back? What did the vet say to do? I would be unhappy with anyone standing on him, even if he was perfectly healthy. Just why? Do you think the bloke was too strong with him? I’ve known horses in pain that do as asked when the rider is just really strong/forceful.


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## GrassChop (10 October 2021)

Haven't kept up with the other threads but I thought he was retired too or is he being rehabbed? Either way, well done for getting back on and helping him!


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## SatansLittleHelper (11 October 2021)

You have been an absolute star with Prince from the word go but I do have concerns that you may be being swayed off course a little here. Though Prince may appear to be tolerating all of this at present there is a very real chance that this could go very, very wrong. I would hate for you to have all of your wonderful work undone, even with the best of intentions xx


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## Keira 8888 (11 October 2021)

Hi guys,

Thanks for all your replies, yes, totally get where you’re coming from.

Basically he hasn’t been diagnosed yet with kissing spines, in order to get the diagnosis the vet needs to see him ridden before and after local anaesthetic is injected into the spine.

Because I was too nervous to get on I enlisted the help of a professional rider - the lady I had been hoping to do it said she was too booked up so I happened to mention to my local feed shop lady (someone very well known in the area and trusted) what I was looking for. She also knows my entire journey with Prince which is great.

To be honest, when the chap arrived I wasn’t expecting him to even get on, just to come and meet us. But he was absolutely amazing with Prince, I’ve never seen him so calm while being handled and tacked up.

I was stupid to show you guys those particular photos without explaining more - I’m sorry guys. The chap had ridden him and warmed him up in many many ways before this - he was firm but very kind with Prince and assessing his response to things at all points.

But yes, I can completely understand that this is not the kind of photo one would expect to see with a horse under back investigation. I can assure you that he was completely warmed up and handled with great care throughout the session.

Completely my fault to hit you all with that photo! If I had shown more videos of what went on previously I think it would give you all a slightly clearer idea of the rider in question and his horsemanship.

I will keep you posted on how we get on as he is going to work with us every day now.

Thanks again for all your replies
Kxx



Because


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## Ambers Echo (11 October 2021)

I’m glad you like the trainer but the phrase ‘just needs firm handling’ rings alarm bells in a horse with Prince’s history. If a horse shows a pain response and receives ‘firm handling’ they very often stoically accept it - a sort of learned helplessness. Until one day sometimes they don’t and explode. And even if that doesn’t happen I would never want my horses to stop expressing how they feel in the only way they can - via behaviours.

3 previous horses of mine became unrideable through injury - I initially was told all 3 just needed a firm hand. Max went from apparent acceptance of a rider to rearing over backwards on concrete seconds after being mounted (with a pro on board) with almost no warning.

Of course a brief post and one line in a long conversation can’t possibly tell the whole story. Perhaps Prince is now pain free and he is being helped with remembered pain?  But it is very, very common for pain behaviour to be seen as needing correction rather than understanding and investigations so just be careful. Good luck and I hope it works out for you all.


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## Tiddlypom (11 October 2021)

Keira 8888 said:



			I will keep you posted on how we get on as he is going to work with us every day now.
		
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Oh dear . You really have been led up the garden path with this new 'professional'. I, too, thought that Prince was in happy retirement.

Standing on the horse's back? Pure 'look at me' machismo, nothing to do with rehab.

This is not going to end well for you or for Prince unless you sack this person off right now. Prince will maybe handle the 'firm' handling until his break point is reached, and then he will explode.


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## J&S (11 October 2021)

I'm mind blown too. I cannot imagine why you would let some man stand on your horse's back.


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## ycbm (11 October 2021)

Keira 8888 said:



			Basically he hasn’t been diagnosed yet with kissing spines, in order to get the diagnosis the vet needs to see him ridden before and after local anaesthetic is injected into the spine.
		
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Keira you have recently posted x rays showing close dorsal spinal processes and the white spots caused by  DSP impingement.

https://forums.horseandhound.co.uk/threads/any-ks-x-ray-experts-out-there.810476/

Kissing spines is not in doubt,  the only thing in doubt is whether he is pain free enough now to ride him.

Please don't trust this man.  Vaulting on from the floor and standing on the back with a two point loading is not the way to rehab kissing spines to bring a retired horse with a history of kissing spines and  explosive behaviour back into work.
.


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## Sossigpoker (11 October 2021)

Oh I remember your post now - why are tou kidding yourself into thinking that your horse doesn't have a kissing spine when the x ray was rather clear?
You've allowed this horse to be bullied into behaving, despite the pain he is in. Mind blown , indeed.

If you've changed your mind about retiring him , you need his spine treated (surgery ?) And then rehabbed.  Firm handling has no place in this!

Injecting the spine is nothing to do with diagnosing a kissing spine. It is a fork of treatment to try and control the pain and inflammation in the spine.

Very disappointed by this post.


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## Trouper (11 October 2021)

Oh Keira - I am afraid that I am with everyone else who has expressed concerns about this approach to Prince.  

I know when we feel under-confident or under-qualified to do things with our horses it is all too easy to attribute "hero" status to others who seem to be able to do it with ease.  I am sure your rider did warm him up properly and all the other good things but, as @Ambers Echo has so clearly outlined, horses are experts at hiding discomfort and pain.  Prince may not be feeling it now but more regular work may ignite it, so please be careful.

Are you familiar with the work done on how horses express pain through their facial expressions and subtle behaviours?   It is worth exploring and then, when Prince is ridden again, don't look at how his body is moving all the time - look at his face and see how he is reacting there.

Above all, be guided by your vet on the sort of work Prince can do - and no one else.   Personally I would not stand on the spine of the healthiest, strongest horse in the world and anyone who did that to mine would never come near him again.  The forces concentrated down through a single point of contact are far, far greater than the dispersed weight of the average rider..

I am sorry so many of us are raining on your parade - but we are truly supportive of the wonderful work you have done with Prince so far - and we all want that journey to continue!!


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## Ambers Echo (11 October 2021)

Trouper said:



			Oh Keira - I am afraid that I am with everyone else who has expressed concerns about this approach to Prince. 

I know when we feel under-confident or under-qualified to do things with our horses it is all too easy to attribute "hero" status to others who seem to be able to do it with ease.  I am sure your rider did warm him up properly and all the other good things but, as @Ambers Echo has so clearly outlined, horses are experts at hiding discomfort and pain.  Prince may not be feeling it now but more regular work may ignite it, !!
		
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I made exactly that mistake. Sent Amber away to a pro while I was injured, trusting his assessment of her being ‘wilful’ and me needing to be more firm. She came back totally stressed. And lame. She’s never been ridden again. He didn’t cause her injury but he aggravated it and caused her mental stress. All with a patient manner and the best of intentions. Please don’t make the same mistake.


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## ownedbyaconnie (11 October 2021)

A friend had a pony who would plant with her but not with a pro rider so for a long time thought pony was taking the p with her. Turns out she had grade 4 ulcers. The pro rider was just more effective at riding the pony through it…


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## Winters100 (11 October 2021)

Keira you are a really wonderful owner, but I'm afraid I echo the advice from the others that you have been taken in by this trainer.  Standing on the back is never a good idea, and you risk doing great harm to a horse who you love very much.  It is not firm handling he needs, but careful handling to make sure that he is not simply tolerating pain. Sorry to be negative, but I know that you are doing your best by him and would want to know x


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## Upthecreek (11 October 2021)

Any ‘pro’ that wanted to stand on a horse’s back would be shown the door immediately by me, but on a horse with Prince’s history…… my mind is blown. Horses will put up with all manner of unpleasant things when they are bullied into it and they don’t have the option to say no. But eventually most end up saying no in a big way, often with unpleasant consequences for themselves and the rider. If you are intent on riding Prince I absolutely definitely would not put your child on him until he has been in consistent ridden work with no issues for a lengthy period of time and certainly not after one session with this male rider.


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## Keira 8888 (11 October 2021)

Hi guys,

I totally understand everything you are saying.

Just want to say, the point of this chap getting on Prince was purely so that I had someone to ride him as the vet won’t diagnose kissing spines on the X-rays alone. They have to see the difference in his ridden performance before and after local anaesthetic.

I didn’t ask this guy to ride him through his bad behaviour as a solution to it - it was merely a way for the vet to see someone on his back. And as he was recommended to me by someone I highly trust I thought I would give it a go. 

I can’t claim for any further treatment for his back until I have a diagnosis. Everything way in which he interacted with Prince with the exception of the standing on his back and mounting without a block was kind and professional.

I do absolutely agree that standing on a horse with kissing spines is not good. Having read all your replies carefully I now have a lot to think about. He is due to come again today and I will discuss this with him.

 I completely understand what you guys are saying about the standing on Princes back. To be honest, it all happened so quickly I had no time to question it. And this was after a highly successful session where I had utter trust in what the chap had been doing with Prince up to that point.

I will proceed with great caution and I take everything you have said on board.
Kx


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## Goldenstar (11 October 2021)

GET HIS BACK Xrayed .


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## Sossigpoker (11 October 2021)

Goldenstar said:



			GET HIS BACK Xrayed .
		
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She has


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## flying_high (11 October 2021)

Another who isn’t sure about this. Can you get a second opinion local to you / maybe speak to your vet, ask for a phone discussion.

I would expect any horse that has been out of work to be slowly strengthened, and brought back into work. I wouldn’t expect 3 different riders, and the standing on his back on day one.

And it is huge red flag for a horse with kissing spine showing on the x-rays.

How much back muscle and topline does he have at the moment? How confident are you that his facial expressions and eyes are happy with this process?

What does your physio / bodyworker of choice think about his back at the moment, and his back after being ridden? Is there any muscle soreness? Do they think he is strong enough for ridden work?

I **do** think it is possible he has learnt (maybe through pain) some bad behaviour, and the pain may or may not still be there. He might massively benefit from a clear, firm, decisive, fair approach and clear leadership. He might be happy to be ridden now, or he might not.

Some horses have terrible kissing spine x-rays and don’t have pain. Some have moderate x-rays and have violent pain.


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## GrassChop (11 October 2021)

Goldenstar said:



			GET HIS BACK Xrayed .
		
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It has been I believe on a previous thread.


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## Keira 8888 (11 October 2021)

flying_high said:



			Another who isn’t sure about this. Can you get a second opinion local to you / maybe speak to your vet, ask for a phone discussion.

I would expect any horse that has been out of work to be slowly strengthened, and brought back into work. I wouldn’t expect 3 different riders, and the standing on his back on day one.

And it is huge red flag for a horse with kissing spine showing on the x-rays.

How much back muscle and topline does he have at the moment? How confident are you that his facial expressions and eyes are happy with this process?

What does your physio / bodyworker of choice think about his back at the moment, and his back after being ridden? Is there any muscle soreness? Do they think he is strong enough for ridden work?

I **do** think it is possible he has learnt (maybe through pain) some bad behaviour, and the pain may or may not still be there. He might massively benefit from a clear, firm, decisive, fair approach and clear leadership. He might be happy to be ridden now, or he might not.

Some horses have terrible kissing spine x-rays and don’t have pain. Some have moderate x-rays and have violent pain.
		
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Yes completely understand. Leading up to yesterday I have been working with him every day (over the past few months) doing in hand walks up hills and lots of pole work recommended by his physio.

Over the time I’ve had Prince I’ve learnt that his facial expressions are very indicative of how he is feeling - if he is in pain (say with the farrier, before I had his shoes taken off) his lower lip moves very quickly and his eyes widen. I was watching him closely yesterday and he showed none of those signs which led me to think he was comfortable with things. Obviously I 100% accept now that the standing in the back, whether he showed discomfort or not, was a bad move.

I will call my vet today to explain everything that has gone on. The next step is for them to come and inject his back.  

I’m sorry now for posting these pictures, it was very ignorant of me. I’m embarrassed to say I got extremely overwhelmed and excited with seeing him ridden again.

Ive always tried to put Prince first in our journey of ups and downs, I got it wrong yesterday when I didn’t immediately appreciate the potential consequences of someone standing on his back.

Another lesson learned. Xx


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## paddi22 (11 October 2021)

it can be easy to kind of get carried along with the flow, especially with very forceful professionals. and in hindsight you can look back at something that happened over a few seconds and think it mightn't be the wisest choice looking back.

one of the most important lesson I ever learnt was that I am the person who advocates for my horse. so I'm a lot stronger now in situations standing my ground and pushing back on something that  in my gut I know isn't in the best interest of my horse. 

I'd be another just gently suggesting that 'being more forceful' isn't always a good thing. I got told SO many times by professionals to ride my rearing horse through bad behaviour and not be so soft on him. I cringe now when I think how he was trying to communicate his discomfort and I was ignoring it and making it worse. You can only learn these things through experience though, and you are learning so much as you go through this process with Prince.


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## LegOn (11 October 2021)

I think we have experienced a moment of madness when it comes to horses and done something that only with hindsight (and usually some helpful friends!) you realise might not have been the best idea! 

I think everyone has covered all the bases here on opinions about 'professionals' etc and I do think you have taken it all on board.  Its hard when you want something so much and you see it happening before your eyes that your brain gets a load of stupid happy hormones and you go along with it - its part of the human condition, dont beat yourself up over and I think everyone has given good helpful advice, sometimes we need to take a breath and just assess things a bit quicker & also say when we arent happy but its not easy! 

I had a lesson with some 'pro' riders and she offered to ride my horse to 'figure him out' - 45 mins later, I had tears streaming down my face and her aggressively telling me everything he & me are doing wrong & barely a squeak came out my mouth - I should have stopped her about 30 mins before it did but when someone is shouting aggressive about all the horrible things you are & he is & how to make it all better, I actually was so unbelievably crushed I could barely speak.  So look it happens to us, we dont say things when we should. 

Take some time to write everything down that you want for Prince - work out the best way to get there with people you trust while still questioning everything & learning as much as you can from them - dont take everything as the correct action without just questioning very action and what its purpose is, its intended outcome and expectations etc - just be thorough, even if it sounds stupid, ask it! Or even imagine to yourself - if you had to explain this on H&H forum, would you be able to answer every question thrown at you!!! LOL! Just be the objective person for yourself, it can help you see it from all angles.


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## babymare (11 October 2021)

Hey Keira. Let’s draw a line under the weekend and move on 😊 it’s great you are speaking with your vet about what happened. You have done so damn well with Prince. I think all of us have got carried away in a “moment” at some point and made a “wrong” decision.  So onwards and upwards and carry on giving Prince the wonderful love and care that you do 😁xx


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## Mrs. Jingle (11 October 2021)

I just have to add this (I am sure you have read quite enough!) You are probably one of the most caring owners on here Keira and also come across as so eager to learn and improve your knowledge with horse ownership. If only there were more like you out there.

I have the experience of nearly 7 decades with horses and I managed to get swept up in awe by a so called professional rider just a few short years ago.  It didn't end well for the rider when I realised what was going on with my poor horse.  I got that very wrong and it still fills me with guilt.

 Don't beat yourself up over this, perhaps a bit of misjudgement on your part that is all, but I am sure nothing earth shattering has happened because of it. Good luck with where you go with it all from here, but I am sure you will do what is right for Prince as you always have done.


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## AShetlandBitMeOnce (11 October 2021)

Goldenstar said:



			GET HIS BACK Xrayed .
		
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It has been, YCBM has posted a link to the x-rays up thread.

I am with everyone else on this one. You don't need a pro to work with you every day if you are riding him with the sole intention of diagnosis for the vet, and he certainly doesn't need to be mounting from the floor which I think is more insane than standing on him (or equally, insane all the same).   He surely needs to ride him once before and once after. I don't see the sense in this method of diagnosis anyway, as you can train a horse not to be too reactive to something if you are a good enough rider, to a certain extent anyway as a poster up thread has said re: grade 4 ulcers. So what evidence does it show, unless you have a horse flip with you before and stay up right after anaesthetic. But then again I am no vet so..

Nothing against you as an owner Keira, you are wonderful and always do your best. Everyone has been criminal of putting a little too much faith in a pro at times, myself included.


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## Caol Ila (11 October 2021)

I'm surprised the vet needs to see horse ridden for a KS diagnosis. Is that SOP? One at my yard was recently taken to the vet school for a KS diagnosis. She's been out of ridden work for a while, and I don't believe that the vets asked to see her ridden. Don't think her owner would have been keen to get on.


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## ownedbyaconnie (11 October 2021)

Novice owners (I hope you don’t mind me referring to you as one, I am one too!) can go one of two ways I find. They’re either pig ignorant and ignore advice (both well meaning and not) or they are well aware of their inexperience and rely perhaps too much on advice purely because it is from someone they deem more experienced.

the fact you are the latter is testament to your kind character and desire for the best for Prince. Chalk it up to experience, have a chat with your vet and keep putting Prince first ❤️


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## ycbm (11 October 2021)

Goldenstar said:



			GET HIS BACK Xrayed .
		
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The x rays are clear,  the horse has kissing spines.

What the vet is trying to do for the insurance company,  I believe,  is to prove that the kissing spines are the cause of the behaviour issues.

Keira, if this isn't the case then you need a new vet. 
.


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## Caol Ila (11 October 2021)

ycbm said:



			The x rays are clear,  the horse has kissing spines.

What the vet is trying to do for the insurance company,  I believe,  is to prove that the kissing spines are the cause of the behaviour issues.

Keira, if this isn't the case then you need a new vet.
.
		
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Has Keira started a 'loss of use' claim? I don't quite get why the insurance company would need proof that the kissing spines are causing behaviour issues. "Let's get on its back and see if it rears over backwards...Whoops." Seems like a dangerous approach. Surely, if the x-rays show KS, then he has KS.


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## quizzie (11 October 2021)

ycbm said:



			The x rays are clear,  the horse has kissing spines.

What the vet is trying to do for the insurance company,  I believe,  is to prove that the kissing spines are the cause of the behaviour issues.

Keira, if this isn't the case then you need a new vet.
.
		
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The X-rays show evidence of impingement of the spinous processes, what they cannot determine is whether this is the cause of the behaviour problems...some horses with those level of changes may have major clinical issues, in others they may be largely asymptomatic.
Given that insurance companies frequently will not pay out for investigation of behavioural issues where no clinical reason is found, it is probable that the vet is looking to see the horse ridden, then inject local anaesthetic, and observe for changes in said behaviour to prove that that is the site of pain.
This is entirely separate from possible therapeutic injections to treat the issue.


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## Keith_Beef (11 October 2021)

LegOn said:



			just be thorough, even if it sounds stupid,
		
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It can be hard to ask questions, but on the other hand you pay for expert advice, so the expert should be prepared to answer any and every question you want to ask.


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## Upthecreek (11 October 2021)

It’s always worth remembering that people give advice and make recommendations with good intentions, but sometimes without knowing the horse or the full story. I have learnt that the hard way over the years and there are very few people that I would now trust implicitly to give me advice about my horses.

What I am confused about though is the pro rode Prince and he did not show any discomfort or pain related behaviour to KS that showed on the x-rays, so if the vet now injects him with local anaesthetic it doesn’t prove anything. I must be missing something.


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## I don’t like mondays (11 October 2021)

If Prince has been reactive under saddle due to pain, please don’t feel you have to ride him (and put yourself at risk) so the vet can do a nerve block. Explain to the vet the previous issues you’ve had and I’m sure they can find another way to diagnose. My horse had KS (has had surgery). Can the vet do a bone scan instead? I would’ve thought X-rays showing close DSPs and white areas and a history of difficult behaviour under saddle should be enough to diagnose kissing spine. What X-rays won’t do is show whether the behaviour/pain is purely down to KS or something else too (KS tends to come hand in hand with other things like PSD, hocks, SI). Don’t be afraid to change vets because not all vets are kissing spine experts. Good luck, your horse is very lucky to have you


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## poiuytrewq (11 October 2021)

ycbm said:



			The x rays are clear,  the horse has kissing spines.

What the vet is trying to do for the insurance company,  I believe,  is to prove that the kissing spines are the cause of the behaviour issues.

Keira, if this isn't the case then you need a new vet. 
.
		
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Ahh that makes sense. All the KS horses I’ve known have been diagnosed with X-rays alone so I was confused as to the riding and injecting bit.


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## Trouper (11 October 2021)

When I was out of riding action and my horse needed a lameness work up, one of the vet nurses at the practice rode him so that the vet could do the "under saddle" part.   Any good vet practice should be able to do this for you if you do not feel able to do it yourself.


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## teddypops (11 October 2021)

Caol Ila said:



			I'm surprised the vet needs to see horse ridden for a KS diagnosis. Is that SOP? One at my yard was recently taken to the vet school for a KS diagnosis. She's been out of ridden work for a while, and I don't believe that the vets asked to see her ridden. Don't think her owner would have been keen to get on.
		
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That’s what I thought. I don’t know any vet who would willingly put a rider into a possibly dangerous situation. Vets diagnose from xrays all the time.


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## Keira 8888 (11 October 2021)

I did think it was quite odd, but I didn’t really push the issue to be honest. 

I’ve just returned from our second session and it was incredible - Prince walked out beautifully and I also rode with no fear for the first time.

I understand everyone’s misgivings - I think I should have shared all the great things that he achieved rather than that silly photo. For those that are interested I will continue to share our progress! Just wanted to say that I understand and appreciate every single opinion that I get on this forum, I may not always like it (like a stubborn child) but I do listen and take it onboard.

Thanks for your replies
Kx


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## Annagain (11 October 2021)

Keira, as ever you have really impressed me with the grace and humility with which you accept constructive criticism and advice from others. It pays ten fold as I've also noticed everybody offers that criticism and advice in a particularly kind way. If only all threads were as positive all round.


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## ycbm (11 October 2021)

Please be careful Keira, none of us want to see you hurt. This isn't about whether or not a man stood on Prince's back. 

This is a picture of my horse with kissing spines.  





The dressage judge's comment when she saw me in the cafe was "he needs a man on him". At this point in time,  he regularly scored 7s and 8s for his work and he never did this at home,  he was a gentle soul.  It was only when he had the additional stress of competing and having to do things at particular markers rather than when he felt at a perfect point for me to ask,  that he exploded like this.  It would come out of nowhere, no warning.  

The first time he showed obvious discomfort at home in spite of being warmed with heat lamps,  I had him x rayed and kissing spines were found.  They were injected with steroids and pain killers and for about a week he was a different horse. Then the painkillers wore off,  and from that point on he was unrideable at home. 

The only way I can interpret this is that he was used to a level of pain which had grown gradually over time.  He thought it was normal,  and unless he was stressed by competition,  he tolerated it.  Then it was taken away and he realised what life was supposed to be like,  and refused to go back to accepting the pain like he had before. 

I fear for you that Prince will one day reach the end of his stoicism and put you into orbit.  I know I'm raining on your parade here Keira, and putting doubts into your mind that,  if you are going to ride him,  you need not to have in your head.  I'm really sorry to do that to anyone.  But Prince has a long history since before you bought him and continuing after you bought him which suggest to me and others on the forum that there is a real possibility that he is in pain and that it could result in you being hurt.  

Please take care. 
.


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## I'm Dun (11 October 2021)

I am really sorry to say this, but I have been asked by someone who is very local and doesnt want any backlash, to post about this. 

This guy is to be avoided at all costs. The person has seen him at close quarters working with owners and horses. He can be ok when an owner is present, but definitely isnt when they arent. He is very heavy handed and rough. Not the sort of person you want to work with any horse, but definiely not one with a potential issue.

I have sent you a PM kiera and am happy to get you any more info you need, but I cannot say this strongly enough dont allow this man to work with Prince


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## Tiddlypom (11 October 2021)

Keira 8888 said:



			I’ve just returned from our second session and it was incredible - Prince walked out beautifully and I also rode with no fear for the first time.
		
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You intend to continue with this person? Oh dear.

I thought you'd had second thoughts. I hope that your personal accident insurance is fully up to date.


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## Red-1 (11 October 2021)

I saw this yesterday and was taken aback. But, I didn't comment as I wasn't sure that I had anything positive to say. 

No one can definitively say what is right and what is wrong. 

Some horses get a lot better with rest, which Prince has had. Sometimes that improvement stays. Sometimes they get sore again and the bad behaviour returns. Sometimes it returns with a bang, without warning. That can sometimes cause injuries. 

With others, I have ridden some 'naughty' horses for owners that, once I had squared them up, in the nicest possible way, they stayed 'fixed' as they had got into an unhelpful pattern of behaviour, I changed that pattern by riding the horse, I then worked with the owners to maintain it. 

I have stood on my horse's back. It didn't seem to cause harm. I don't do it as a regular thing. I did it once with one horse. 

I think you have acted to the best of your ability on all dealings with Prince. I, personally, think this current one is a dodgy course of action, but I am not there. What I do know though, is that this is another of those defining moments, where you are the one who owns Prince. You are the one watching the sessions. You are the one who rode him and can feel what is happening. This is horse ownership. You taking the responsibility, you making the decisions.

You wanted horse ownership. This is it. I am sometimes not sure what to do with my horses. All I can do, you can do, anyone can do, is their best.  I would advise an open mind. Keep reviewing with every new piece of information.


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## Laurac13 (11 October 2021)

Keira please be careful if Prince rears like Ycbm’s horse did in that photo a less experienced rider could easily pull the horse over onto of them whilst holding onto the reins trying to stay on. A 600kg horse landing on you could very likely have life changing injuries.


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## Upthecreek (11 October 2021)

It is easy (and sometimes dangerous) to be swept up in what ‘professionals’ say they can do for you. But we have to remember as an owner of any animal that we are ultimately responsible for everything that happens to them and all decisions regarding their care and training. We have to be their advocate because they cannot speak for themselves.

I’m not sure I’m explaining this very well Keira, but what I’m trying to say is you should never be afraid to speak up if someone is doing something you don’t agree with, whether that be vet or pro rider. Don’t feel you can’t say anything because they are supposedly more knowledgeable and experienced than you. You are paying them to provide a service and you should question anything you don’t understand or doesn’t seem right and put a stop to anything you are not happy with.


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## Tihamandturkey (11 October 2021)

I'm Dun said:



			I am really sorry to say this, but I have been asked by someone who is very local and doesnt want any backlash, to post about this.

This guy is to be avoided at all costs. The person has seen him at close quarters working with owners and horses. He can be ok when an owner is present, but definitely isnt when they arent. He is very heavy handed and rough. Not the sort of person you want to work with any horse, but definiely not one with a potential issue.

I have sent you a PM kiera and am happy to get you any more info you need, but I cannot say this strongly enough dont allow this man to work with Prince
		
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Unfortunately that's exactly what I would have guessed looking the "standing on back picture" alone 😔


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## Nasicus (12 October 2021)

Please be careful Keira, remember it was only just over a year ago you were writing this:




			Everything went beautifully at first, he left the field without too much of a battle and happily picked his feet up for me to pick out. Stood calmly to be groomed and tacked up. It was all going so so well. Then I mounted in the yard and walked him down to the school - after a few steps he did two little bucks and then when I tried to gentle push him on he reared right up - all I could see was blue sky. My YO said I was a hairs breath from him coming over backwards.

I am too scared to try again as he has reared several times now. He has had his teeth checked, his back checked, a recent physical examination from the vet in which he Was given the all clear. ( this wasn’t a FULL vetting though, he just did some physical examinations eg legs, heart, ears, eyes.

My YO is now refusing to ride him again which I totally understand. He says he is a dangerous horse and something very bad will happen soon if we persist.
		
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And I don't think any true action has been taken to resolve his kissing spines since then besides some x-rays. You are still sitting on that same horse.


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## Ambers Echo (12 October 2021)

Nasicus said:



			I don't think any true action has been taken to resolve his kissing spines since then besides some x-rays. You are still sitting on that same horse.
		
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Im sure you’re sick of comments but I would like to just tell you Max’s story. He was sent for a poor performance workup due to rearing. Not much was found and he ended up having scintigraphy which identified inflammation in the SI joint. He had the joint injected and was carefully (professionally) rehabbed. He did not put a foot wrong during rehab. He came home and we hacked him out, started doing a bit of school work. We had our relaxed happy pony back - hurrah. Like Prince, Max showed no sign of pain. From all I can gather, your trainer hasn’t done anything really other than get on a horse who is happy - at the moment - to let him get on. But one day a friend hopped on and Max put his ears back and planted. The RI/YO said I’ll get on him for you (thank goodness!) so she hopped on and her bum wasn’t in the saddle before he was up. And up. And eventually over though RI had jumped clear to get off before he killed her. He will never ever be ridden again but I have no doubt I could drag him out the field tomorrow and ride snd he’d be fine. For a while. You know Prince has KS and you know he can rear unexpectedly vertically. I’d stick with the retirement plan unless a vet can assure you he has been successfully treated and is pain free. Because the likelihood is that he just isn’t hurting that much yet. But fundamentally as Nascius says - it’s the same horse with the same bad back and one day you will get the same behaviour unless the root cause (pain) is found and addressed.


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## CanteringCarrot (12 October 2021)

Also another one who had a horse with KS and he would just stand up. He could he totally happy walking nicely on a hack then just rear up. He was happy when no one really asked anything of him, but the moment someone did, it was a fight and dangerous. No doubt you could just get on him some days and have a nice time, but everything was fine until it wasn't.

I do know some horses with KS that remain in some level of work though. Some have had procedures done, and perhaps some were not as "violent" or bothered by their condition. Mine had KS, but the x-ray really wasn't catastrophic/the worst case, but it was definitely painful to him. I would be very wary.


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## Ambers Echo (12 October 2021)

Sorry - just one more thing: you CAN rehab a KS horse with Pilates style exercises as you have already been doing. So maybe there is a ridden future for you. But this trainer is not what you need. The ‘firm hand’ is the wrong direction. Actually you need to be hyper vigilant to pain and to listen to Prince not ‘ride through’.  At the same time you need to not inadvertently train him to evade. That can be quite tricky. And I know the standing photo was 1 small part of a longer session but it betrays a mindset that I’d run a mile from. There is zero training benefit in it, there is unnecessary pressure through a compromised back from it. Just wrong to think of doing it. 

A trainer might give me hours of excellence advice but if during 1 second she yanked the horse in the mouth or kicked it, then that 1 moment would let me know she was not a suitable match for me.


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## Keira 8888 (12 October 2021)

Damn it! I have just written a huge reply and then for some reason the system kicked me out. 

Just wanted to say I have read everyone’s replies but couldn’t answer last night, thank you very much for all input, I really appreciate it.

I will just quickly say that for those wondering what I have done since the X-rays - he has had regular physio and chiro, daily work over poles (as instructed by physio) walking in hand up hills and a stretching routine after each work out.

I promise I am not taking this lightly and I have been beavering away with Prince to build and lift his back and it has started to show promising results in how he is carrying himself.

I truly do appreciate everyone’s concerns for me, and Prince of course. In the same situation, if I were reading a post like mine (and going just on that written information) I too would be questioning things.

But I have 100% confidence in this trainer and am ultimately going to go with my own gut feeling. This doesn’t mean I am ignoring concerns, I take all opinions onboard and appreciate them, I know this will frustrate many of you and I’m sorry. Especially when you have taken time to give me your opinion.

I will keep you updated on how we get on. 

Keira x


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## Fluffypiglet (12 October 2021)

I'm sorry you're going through this Keira, we all know how much you love Prince. I guess from my experience the issue here is that a) the x-ray and previous behaviour confirms Prince has something going wrong somewhere and b) 'firm handling' tends to ignore the whispers he'll be giving you and then it may escalate into a 'shout' . 

My horse is good at whispering to me because I listen. Investigation has always shown a reason for his whispers despite a very experienced vet and other 'old school' types, incl professional riders just telling me to push through cos there's nothing wrong, he's 'fine'. Me and my horse have no aspirations other than having a nice time and I'm the one who can make sure that's what we have. I'm rather smug (only internally, I'm not that rude!) when I then note that I wasn't being soft or pandering to my boy but simply looking at the horse in front of me and I was right!)  You have previously understood him and listened so I suspect this will get resolved. It's just tough sometimes when you have "more experienced" people telling you stuff. Believe in yourself, not them. You can probably try riding again given all the work you've been doing in hand, just listen carefully to Prince and don't let anyone push you into being 'firm' when that could be a disaster.

ETA cross posted but I'll leave my thoughts with you.


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## Keira 8888 (12 October 2021)

Forgot to add, there is still a possibility that Princes initial behaviour (which was far more dramatic in the first months of him coming to England) was caused by a traumatic journey from Ireland, new yard, being asked to hack out alone on new roads, lack of top line, his ulcers (which I only discovered months later and treated immediately) and quite significantly, my own anxiety and his lack of trust in me as a novice owner.

I am not trying to convince myself that this is the case - I am merely keeping an open mind until I can have his back injected.

As I become more confident in him, and myself, I am beginning to realise that what I initially thought were huge reactions, were actually quite common napping tactics, and I have been reassured by many people that the behaviour they have seen in Prince - which I initially didn’t know how to handle - is really nothing more than a reluctance to go forward when he’s leaving the yard alone.

Although his X-rays do show evidence of kissing spines, I am keeping my mind open to the possibility that his past behaviour may possibly have been due to the other factors I listed above.

I am in no way trying to bury my head in the sand - I will continue this journey with the medical input of my vet, physio and chiro - I just wanted to let you know what other factors could well have been at play here.

Kx


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## Keira 8888 (12 October 2021)

Fluffypiglet said:



			I'm sorry you're going through this Keira, we all know how much you love Prince. I guess from my experience the issue here is that a) the x-ray and previous behaviour confirms Prince has something going wrong somewhere and b) 'firm handling' tends to ignore the whispers he'll be giving you and then it may escalate into a 'shout' . 

My horse is good at whispering to me because I listen. Investigation has always shown a reason for his whispers despite a very experienced vet and other 'old school' types, incl professional riders just telling me to push through cos there's nothing wrong, he's 'fine'. Me and my horse have no aspirations other than having a nice time and I'm the one who can make sure that's what we have. I'm rather smug (only internally, I'm not that rude!) when I then note that I wasn't being soft or pandering to my boy but simply looking at the horse in front of me and I was right!)  You have previously understood him and listened so I suspect this will get resolved. It's just tough sometimes when you have "more experienced" people telling you stuff. Believe in yourself, not them. You can probably try riding again given all the work you've been doing in hand, just listen carefully to Prince and don't let anyone push you into being 'firm' when that could be a disaster.

ETA cross posted but I'll leave my thoughts with you.
		
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Thank you xx


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## Melody Grey (12 October 2021)

Meant entirely sympathetically, Keira, I think you’re deluding yourself.

It’s so hard to accept that a horse’s ridden career is over, especially if it’s your only horse and you desperately want to ride.

I think you should get the veterinary situation investigated further and fully and the horse rehabbed/ treated as recommended by an expert vet if you want to go anywhere near this being a ridden horse again, and even then, I mean under EXTREME caution.

If you need to ride and can’t cope with a retired horse/ wasted potential etc. I wouldn’t blame you in the slightest for PTS and starting again in this situation. I did this with my last horse and don’t regret it for a moment.

An unpredictable vertical rearer is a ticking time bomb. My sons old pony did this completely out of the blue and fell over backwards with him (luckily someone grabbed him off). The pony was off the yard the next day. Don’t put anyone in that position, life is precious.

ETA: I know it’s such a hard situation. Take care of yourself x


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## ihatework (12 October 2021)

Keira 8888 said:



			Damn it! I have just written a huge reply and then for some reason the system kicked me out.

Just wanted to say I have read everyone’s replies but couldn’t answer last night, thank you very much for all input, I really appreciate it.

I will just quickly say that for those wondering what I have done since the X-rays - he has had regular physio and chiro, daily work over poles (as instructed by physio) walking in hand up hills and a stretching routine after each work out.

I promise I am not taking this lightly and I have been beavering away with Prince to build and lift his back and it has started to show promising results in how he is carrying himself.

I truly do appreciate everyone’s concerns for me, and Prince of course. In the same situation, if I were reading a post like mine (and going just on that written information) I too would be questioning things.

But I have 100% confidence in this trainer and am ultimately going to go with my own gut feeling. This doesn’t mean I am ignoring concerns, I take all opinions onboard and appreciate them, I know this will frustrate many of you and I’m sorry. Especially when you have taken time to give me your opinion.

I will keep you updated on how we get on.

Keira x
		
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Im concerned.
Anyone that stands on a horses back like that (irrespective of how much ‘good’ work is done in a session) is not into horse training in the best interests of the horse.

I have read the thread and can see you intend to continue using this chap. I can also see that at present you aren’t going to have your mind changed.

What I would therefore strongly suggest is that you do not let him work with the horse alone. Always be there watching. If you get an unsure gut feeling about how something is going then don’t be talked down by what will be a convincing explanation.


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## Regandal (12 October 2021)

You obviously love Prince very much and are usually open to any support. I’m sorry you have been taken in by this guy, the moment he did that flying leap onto a horse with a known compromised back, he’d have been missing his ‘nads.  Stay safe x


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## stangs (12 October 2021)

I won't comment on the KS situation as others here are vastly more experienced in dealing with KS than I am, but what I will say is be very careful of the attitude that a certain horse needs firm handling.

Imo there can be situations that call for firm handling, when a horse is too anxious to hear the rider 'whisper', but it's not a long term solution. Firm handling does not solve anything. It merely controls one specific situation, but that can easily result in the problem getting worse later on. Nor will being told to handle a horse firmly make anyone more confident.

I'm sure that his early behaviour involved the other factors you mention, but he, regardless, he reared up vertically. That means, in future, if you ever step over his threshold (and it can be very difficult to tell what that threshold is, with a horse who's being told to grin and bear it - not saying that's what's happening here, but that is what firm handling can lead to), he will do the same thing. That's his go to now.

From your posts, it's clear that you've always done what's best for him, and that he's very much loved. But please do be very careful with how you proceed with a known rearer.


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## eahotson (12 October 2021)

EllenJay said:



			Good news.
Not critising but what was he achieving by standing on his back? 💁‍♀️
		
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Inspiring confidence I should think.


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## eahotson (12 October 2021)

I hadn't been aware of his history.


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## mustardsmum (12 October 2021)

Keira 8888 said:



			Forgot to add, there is still a possibility that Princes initial behaviour (which was far more dramatic in the first months of him coming to England) was caused by a traumatic journey from Ireland, new yard, being asked to hack out alone on new roads, lack of top line, his ulcers (which I only discovered months later and treated immediately) and quite significantly, my own anxiety and his lack of trust in me as a novice owner.

I am not trying to convince myself that this is the case - I am merely keeping an open mind until I can have his back injected.

As I become more confident in him, and myself, I am beginning to realise that what I initially thought were huge reactions, were actually quite common napping tactics, and I have been reassured by many people that the behaviour they have seen in Prince - which I initially didn’t know how to handle - is really nothing more than a reluctance to go forward when he’s leaving the yard alone.

Although his X-rays do show evidence of kissing spines, I am keeping my mind open to the possibility that his past behaviour may possibly have been due to the other factors I listed above.

I am in no way trying to bury my head in the sand - I will continue this journey with the medical input of my vet, physio and chiro - I just wanted to let you know what other factors could well have been at play here.

Kx
		
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Keira, please don't dismiss this earlier behaviour as nothing more than nappiness,  a reluctance to go forward when hes leaving the yard alone due to your inexperience. Your yard owner said he was dangerous, yet you now say many people say his behaviour is normal? He reared vertically with you, and the behaviour trigged a number of posts asking for advice on what to do etc. On x-raying, you discover he has kissing spines, and decided to retire him but you have come full circle and are back riding him with the help of a professional. I have emailed you the name of an excellent local vet who may be able to give a second opinion should you feel that would help. I am one of those who feels you may be being told by this professional to kick on and make him behave, when actually although you have started a rehab program involving physio etc, you do not know if the rehab has been successful. Unless you have had further xrays to confirm the physio has had the desired effect, you really should not be back riding him - and certainly not standing on the very area where the kissing spines are. Its horrible when our horses break - been there too many times and am currently dealing with a broken horse who is under physio and we are looking at several months before she is back in full time work. Physio isn't immediate and with kissing spines the rehab can be lengthy. But you have to take baby steps with these things, horses are a remarkably stoic and often will put up with an enormous amount of pain - they are a predated species so their natural response is  to appear to everyone around them as healthy and able to flee if they need to - its the poker face effect. Its only when a situation becomes too much or too painful, they often react, and it can be explosively. Please, please rethink and get another opinion, or at the very least re-xray to see where you are with his back. He knows how to rear, and it is obviously his "go to" reaction. I would really hate to read in a weeks time that the behaviour has resurfaced because I believe you are actually really respectful of your horse and want the best for him.


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## paddi22 (12 October 2021)

Without xrays and a vets view, no-one has an idea of what's going on in your horse's back. 

I can guarantee you that man you got in would not have stood on the horses back in front of a professional vet. The vet would have absolutely ripped him. Imagine a friend of yours had a serious spinal issue, and someone just came up and dumped a heavy backpack on them for a few seconds. It proves NOTHING, other than your friend can possibly stand with a heavy backpack for a few seconds.  A serious intelligent professional just WOULDN'T do it, because it proves nothing and could potentially be sore for the horse. The fact this person does these kind of showboating tricks shows who they are. And telling someone to 'be firmer' with a horse who has a recorded history of pain responses makes no sense and could cause the horse to react through pain in future and potentially kill or injury you. 

The rehab work you have done could potentially have strengthened your horses back and made him ridable. But you need to explore that with a vet and a good physio. Not this guy.


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## DressageCob (12 October 2021)

KS doesn't always mean retirement, but surely if all you're doing is riding to get to the point of being able to inject the spine and see if it makes a difference, the horse doesn't need 3 riders in one session or a guy standing behind the saddle on his back. 

To be honest, with what has been described I don't think you do have the horse's best interests at heart now. From what you've said the plan is, to get the horse ridden so you can see a difference after injections, then all that is needed is for the horse to be sympathetically ridden. It does not need three different riders, mounting from the ground, people standing on his back.

It sounds like you've got caught up in the excitement of riding your horse again. I completely understand that. What I don't understand is why the focus has shifted away from the horse's interests. At the forefront of the mind it should always be that the horse has a known problem.  Even if he is sound and never rears again, you still have in mind that he has known KS, which is visible even in the poor quality x-rays you have. 

With that mentality there is no way you'd allow some bloke to stand on the horse's back, or for people to mount from the ground, or to go straight into proper ridden work rather than a gradual re-introduction of the weight on his back. 

I'm sorry to be brutal. I appreciate it is difficult. But a person who willingly stands on the back of a horse with known KS (who you're only riding with a view for treatment/diagnostics of said KS) is not someone I'd let within 10 feet of my horse.


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## Ossy2 (12 October 2021)

I’ll caveat this by saying I’m no KS expert or experienced with back X-rays but in fairness to the OP when she posted the pics of the back X-rays on another post a lot of the replies said they had seen worse and a lot stated there was hope the horse would be rideable.  And it appears the OP is going down the route of seeing whether she can “rehab” this horse, which based on the replies to that other thread shouldn’t really be that surprising. 
The issue appears to be whether the “rehab” approach is the right one, only the OP and her vet know that answer really. I’m not totally against the OP doing “rehab” work per say but Would I have someone stand up on my horses back like that, definitely not.


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## FestiveFuzz (12 October 2021)

This is such a sad read. Keira I’ve always been so impressed not only by your unwavering dedication to Prince, but also how you’ve conducted yourself on here, whether asking for advice, taking on board feedback or handling criticism.

That said, I really do feel your choice of professional on this occasion is questionable and I fear continuing down this route will at best undo the hard work you’ve put in so far, and at worst could result in someone getting badly hurt or even killed. I know it’s so easy to fall for the temptation of a magical cure all fix, but having looked at the xrays you posted, and knowing the background with Prince I really don’t think this is a case of a horse that just needs a firm hand. I think you’re deluding yourself and also doing yourself and Prince a disservice to dismiss the xrays  and suggest his earlier behaviour was due to the factors listed, sure in part they might have been contributing factors, but I think it’s highly unlikely that the pain from the KS wasn’t a large contributing, if not the main factor when it comes to the reactivity, anxiety and ulcers.


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## greenbean10 (12 October 2021)

I don't understand why you don't  get his back injected?

My horse had mild KS and my insurance paid for treatment. We didn't block her back. There was no need to ride.

Issue was poor performance (bucking), x-rayed back, vet diagnosed KS, insurance paid out. I don't understand why anyone has to ride the horse before treatment.

 If the horse's X-rays show KS, why don't you just treat it?

Have I missed something?!


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## Upthecreek (12 October 2021)

I'm Dun said:



			I am really sorry to say this, but I have been asked by someone who is very local and doesnt want any backlash, to post about this.

This guy is to be avoided at all costs. The person has seen him at close quarters working with owners and horses. He can be ok when an owner is present, but definitely isnt when they arent. He is very heavy handed and rough. Not the sort of person you want to work with any horse, but definiely not one with a potential issue.

I have sent you a PM kiera and am happy to get you any more info you need, but I cannot say this strongly enough dont allow this man to work with Prince
		
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And you are still going to use this guy after reading this Keira? Numerous posters have pointed out that his methods during your first session were inappropriate for a horse with KS (or any horse actually) but now you have this information you are still going ahead? 🤯


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## CanteringCarrot (12 October 2021)

I think if you treated his back (injection or other pain relieving procedure) and continued with a slow and steady rehab, the results could be ok. The horse also must work in a shape that promotes space/keeping space between the bones there. A friend with a KS horse does a lot of long and low, or forward down and out. He does alright with it.

She also only mounts from a mounting block, uses a well fitted saddle with a mattes pad, and keeps the horse out/he lives on a hilly field. So it's not impossible, but she's very methodical and attentive. The approach you're using now, might not yield the best results in the long term.


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## onlytheponely (12 October 2021)

My heart sank when I saw who was standing on the back of your horse, I wouldn't let 'D' anywhere near one of mine.
I know where you are and if you'd like some reliable references for sensitive rehab riders where you are once you've been given the all clear from your vet then please feel free to PM me. Some vets are significantly better than others in your area as well.


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## fankino04 (12 October 2021)

greenbean10 said:



			I don't understand why you don't  get his back injected?

My horse had mild KS and my insurance paid for treatment. We didn't block her back. There was no need to ride.

Issue was poor performance (bucking), x-rayed back, vet diagnosed KS, insurance paid out. I don't understand why anyone has to ride the horse before treatment.

If the horse's X-rays show KS, why don't you just treat it?

Have I missed something?!
		
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I was wondering this too, presumably the vet wants to see a pain reaction to confirm that the horse needs injecting plus the physio and rehab work but with a known vertical rearer this seems a very odd approach when x rays would show how much the physio etc has helped, I presume the vet thinks prince will simply try to stop to to tell you the pain is back, but with a firm rider who can feel him stopping before you can see it pushing him on through that I very much fear the first sign of pain you will see will be the rearing again.


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## southerncomfort (12 October 2021)

I've been riding all my life but their isn't enough money in the world that would persuade me to sit on a horse that had reared up vertically like that, kissing spines or not. I don't want to end up in a wheelchair or leave my kids without a mum.

I also think your vet would be horrified if he knew what was happening. Apologies if I've misunderstood but I thought he asked you to have a rider available for an assessment.  I'm not sure he meant for you to bring Prince back in to work.


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## eahotson (12 October 2021)

southerncomfort said:



			I've been riding all my life but their isn't enough money in the world that would persuade me to sit on a horse that had reared up vertically like that, kissing spines or not. I don't want to end up in a wheelchair or leave my kids without a mum.

I also think your vet would be horrified if he knew what was happening. Apologies if I've misunderstood but I thought he asked you to have a rider available for an assessment.  I'm not sure he meant for you to bring Prince back in to work.
		
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My thoughts exactly.


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## Tihamandturkey (12 October 2021)

Upthecreek said:



			And you are still going to use this guy after reading this Keira? Numerous posters have pointed out that his methods during your first session were inappropriate for a horse with KS (or any horse actually) but now you have this information you are still going ahead? 🤯
		
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This 100% - I simply cannot cannot understand your decision to carry on with this so called "professional" at all Keira 🤨


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## TPO (12 October 2021)

Firstly I have to admit that I haven't read every Prince thread so there's a possibility that I'm missing some key details but...

Wasn't Prince's rearing and napping episodes when he first arrived? Has it happened since?

The first thread where his behaviour was less than desirable several people jumped to the worst of conclusions about Prince. 

I'm sure I did post on that thread and thought the horse needed given a chance. He'd been through a lot of changes and arrived with a novice owner to then have a "strong" rider out on him.

I think from that point things improved with his wellbeing, feed was changed and certain things were diagnosed by a vet?

So if I've got it right although Prince appeared fine doing groundwork etc Kiera got a vet to examine him resulting in x-rays of his spinal processes?

My horse is sound and fine but if he had a similar xray to Prince without further investigations we wouldn't know if thr KS was affecting him because he was sound and seemed fine.

I can see why in that situation there would need to be an assessment of "my horse" ridden now and after having a painkiller/area numbed etc.

Perhaps it's the same with Prince? If his rearing was only at the start that could have been attributed to many factors. Yes the x-ray looks far from ideal but not everything shown in an xray is causing an animal discomfort or pain. I thought Kiera chose not to ride again rather than couldn't. So I can understand having a professional ride him now, with vets permission, with a view to riding him for a vet appointment. 

No idea who the guy is so can't comment on that. As much as two people on here have spoken out against him I can only assume that people that you know and trust in real life have recommended him?

Again perhaps I've missed threads where Prince was a dangerous rearer beyond the first epic thread but if his rearing is based solely on when he first arrived I wouldn't consider it such a big deal. The horse had a lot to contend with. I think there was possibly a video of a "pro" riding him along the road and it not going well? I can't say I had any confidence in that rider or their "pro" status.

The standing on the saddle, while not something I would do, is fairly common amongst "horsemanship" trainers rather than the BHS methods. I don't see how 12st standing on a horse is different from 12st going down through seat bones.


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## Jeni the dragon (12 October 2021)

Knowing someone who had a pony land on her after rearing up and going over, I wouldn't think of riding a horse who's known evasion is to rear. She's in a wheel chair now.
I always thought you cared so much for Prince, but your posts over the last couple of days seriously worry me.


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## Tiddlypom (12 October 2021)

TPO said:



			don't see how 12st standing on a horse is different from 12st going down through seat bones.
		
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The weight when standing on a horse rather than sitting in a saddle is concentrated through a smaller surface area, so the downward force per square metre is much greater.


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## GrassChop (12 October 2021)

Tiddlypom said:



			The weight when standing on a horse rather than sitting in a saddle is concentrated through a smaller surface area, so the downward force per square metre is much greater.
		
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This.

If you were on your hands and knees and somebody sat on you, then stood on you, you'd feel the difference.


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## Cherryblossom (12 October 2021)

So either he knows what he’s doing is wrong and is doing it anyway; putting his ego above Prince’s well-being. Or he doesn’t know what he’s doing is wrong, in which case he’s not knowledgable enough to do this rehab with you. If it goes wrong, you’re going to kick yourself that you’ve ignored the excellent advice you’ve had here- wouldn’t you rather try this with someone who has Prince’s best interests at heart?


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## nutjob (12 October 2021)

Jeni the dragon said:



			Knowing someone who had a pony land on her after rearing up and going over, I wouldn't think of riding a horse who's known evasion is to rear. She's in a wheel chair now.
		
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I know 2 people (professionals) who have had a horse rear and go over on them.  One had a broken spine, one I think was simply lucky.  They don't always have to be pulled over by novice riders.  I have had one who had to take a step back and who did then come down not go over, my hands were round his neck, not pulling but it could have gone badly none the less.  

Most rehabs start introducing ridden work slowly and carefully, so ignoring whether you think it's a good idea to stand on a horse's back (which I don't) I am surprised that any vet or qualified physio would recommend introducing ridden work so quickly and I would be looking for a lighter rider to start with until KS is ruled out by a vet.


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## Ambers Echo (12 October 2021)

I know how hard it is to go against gut feeling and also how frustrating online advice feels when credible people in real life are giving you what seems like good info with the horse stood in front of them. And you also don’t have to justify your plans to anyone.

But please ask yourself and your trainer a few questions:

Any training plan needs to start from an understanding of where and why things went wrong. In your case we have classic back pain behaviour plus kissing spines visible on X-ray. So while other explanations are possible, any starting point should be on the very strong likelihood that pain was the reason. If you hear hooves think horses not zebras! So I’d be extremely wary of any minimising of the earlier issues.

So if the starting point is pain the question then is what is the plan and why? Any trainer should be able to give you a clear rationale for everything they are doing.

I can see why someone might stand ona horse or crawl under, sit sideways etc treating horse as a sofa IF the only issue is the rider lacks confidence in a totally safe horse. That’s not applicable here. So what did he do it for?

I can also see why someone might vault on, get on from the wrong side, scramble on from a wall being a bit clumsy etc to teach a horse not to overreact to ‘rider noise’ like an accidental toe poke as you step into the stirrup or catching the horses bum as you swing your leg over. Again not really applicable in this situation so what was he doing it for?

I personally cannot fathom either his riding behaviour or his message (just be firm) but he may have perfectly reasonable answers. I would definitely be asking those questions though.

TPO - the YO refused to ride Prince and described him as dangerous when he rested vertical with no warning.


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## ycbm (12 October 2021)

Keira 8888 said:



			But I have 100% confidence in this trainer
		
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🤦🤷
.


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## southerncomfort (12 October 2021)

I went back and checked and the vet has asked to see him ridden at one assessment appointment.  As far as I can tell he has not said that he can be brought back in to full work, just that he needs a rider on him for that day.

But also in the original post K said that she'd asked this chap to come and ride P to see if he behaved better for a confident rider.

Not my horse and not my business 😀 but personally I'd be waiting until the vet has assessed him and given the green light to crack on.


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## Winters100 (12 October 2021)

Kiera I can see why you are having difficulty with this. Everyone here feels it is a bad idea, but clearly people who know both Prince and this 'pro' have advised that it is a good course of action.

I think enough has been said here about why most of us feel that, based upon the information available to us, it is the wrong course of action. I have not changed my opinion about this, and over my dead body would a 'pro' be allowed to do that to my horses, but he is your horse, I know that you have his best interests at heart, and you must do what you think best.  The only one thing I would say is _please please_ do not allow your daughter to ride Prince again until you can be really sure that it is safe for her.  Horses with pain can react in any moment. I have seen a KS horse at our stable be ridden by a pro without problems, and 5 minutes later with his owner rear, slip, and come over onto his side trapping her leg and resulting in a bad break.  She was lucky, it was just her leg.

My experience of horses, and of course this is just personal, is that near vertical rearing is not generally something done because of naughtiness or being put in a new situation, and especially not in an older horse like Prince.  In my opinion it indicated severe pain, and this is still the same horse, with the same ability to react in this way no matter how much physio or groundwork has been done - the reality is that you just don't know what he is feeling.  Whatever you decide to do with Prince please do keep yourself and your daughter safe, because injuries from horses can be life changing.


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## Lammy (12 October 2021)

Sorry Keira but I really do not agree with the road you’re currently going down. It’s easy to be led down the garden path by someone you view as more knowledgable but you really have to stand firm and be the voice for your horse.

It happened to me recently but I stood firm and said no. A vet(!) wanted her event rider husband to get on my horse to try and “make him” canter as she didn’t believe me when I said there was a physical problem as to why he couldn’t maintain the canter. After she’d chased us around the school until he bronced me off I said no thanks and got another vet pretty quickly. We’ve now finally diagnosed him and it’s not good news poor lad. God forbid I’d let her tall, strong,  husband on him and allowed my horse to be bullied into submitting.

The term “riding through” is really outdated and rarely is it ever truly the correct way forward. I’d have a serious rethink about letting this man continue working with Prince and actually listen and take onboard the advice others have given to you in this thread.


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## Peglo (12 October 2021)

Winters100 said:



			My experience of horses, and of course this is just personal, is that near vertical rearing is not generally something done because of naughtiness or being put in a new situation, and especially not in an older horse like Prince.  In my opinion it indicated severe pain, and this is still the same horse, with the same ability to react in this way no matter how much physio or groundwork has been done - the reality is that you just don't know what he is feeling.  Whatever you decide to do with Prince please do keep yourself and your daughter safe, because injuries from horses can be life changing.
		
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this is what I was thinking. I have experience of 2 mares that napped. My TB and her field companion. TB didn’t like hacking and bunny hopped or threatened to buck to show her displeasure and the pony was just bad when we first got her with and half reared and turned on the spot. Both liked to rear full up when playing in the field but never ever reared right up when ridden or napping. Of course all horses are different but that reaction seems a bit much for napping or being unsure. 
TBH I wouldn’t have this pro on my horses either. But I hope it all works out well for you.


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## GrassChop (12 October 2021)

I am sorry Keira. I know you only want what is best for Prince and you're trying your hardest but I am still unsure as to why a confident rider was required and recommended in this case. The vets know his behaviour and the xrays are already proof of why he is this way.  It is highly unlikely that it is behavioural when there is significant evidence. I'd change vet and get a second opinion and please do not use that "pro" again.


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## Boulty (12 October 2021)

I would say proceed with extreme caution.  It is entirely possible that the work you've been doing alongside your physio & chiro has improved his back to the extent that it isn't painful (as it is possible to rehab some horses with some degree of KS this way).  

I've not met & don't know of the guy you're using.  Generally I'd think it ill advised to stand on the back of a horse with possible KS (I can see some of the logic behind it in a 100% pain free horse as a one off to teach the horse to put up with weird things) & would also ideally advise against routinely mounting from the floor on any horse (beyond teaching them to accept it for occasions it is required eg put hacking & occasional reminders) due to extra strain it places on their back & the saddle.  But at the end of the day you're the one with the horse & the trainer in front of you. 

Would advise re-assessment from the vet (& physio) before asking too much of him in case he does become painful again & if you get the green light then would also advise getting the saddle fit checked as if you've been doing lots of groundwork he's probably changed shape a fair bit. 

As for the advice re firmness.  Some horses do not tolerate faffing about well & prefer to be told clearly & concisely what is expected & then to get on with it. That doesn't have to go into the realm of bullying / ignoring what the horse is telling you (& please don't let anyone in real life tell you otherwise) 

PS If you haven't already look up "trigger stacking"


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## Apizz2019 (13 October 2021)

This is such a difficult read as you're a passionate and caring owner and have done your very best for Prince. I applaud you, I really do. Many would have given up long ago. 

I don't want to repeat what others have said and I'm not going to tell you what you're doing is right or wrong, as that's not my place to. 

You know your horse, you know the individual/s and professionals you're working with, you know what your plan of action is and how you're going to get there etc

All I will say is please please do whatever you must do with your eyes wide open. Try, as hard as it is, not to take anything as gospel unless from the mouth of a qualified professional, e.g your vet, physio etc. 

I know how much you want to make this work and I don't think it's beyond the realms of possibility that Prince could come back into work. But, and a huge but, your safety and the welfare of Prince must come first, always. 

I'm sure, to varying degrees, we've all been swept along on a ride that is joyous but short lived. It happens, we're human. Just take a step back and think carefully about your next move. It could, literally, be a matter of life or death for you. 

I wish every success and happiness for you and Prince, now and in the future. 

x


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## blood_magik (13 October 2021)

ycbm said:



			Please be careful Keira, none of us want to see you hurt. This isn't about whether or not a man stood on Prince's back.

This is a picture of my horse with kissing spines.

View attachment 80945



The dressage judge's comment when she saw me in the cafe was "he needs a man on him". At this point in time,  he regularly scored 7s and 8s for his work and he never did this at home,  he was a gentle soul.  It was only when he had the additional stress of competing and having to do things at particular markers rather than when he felt at a perfect point for me to ask,  that he exploded like this.  It would come out of nowhere, no warning.

The first time he showed obvious discomfort at home in spite of being warmed with heat lamps,  I had him x rayed and kissing spines were found.  They were injected with steroids and pain killers and for about a week he was a different horse. Then the painkillers wore off,  and from that point on he was unrideable at home.

The only way I can interpret this is that he was used to a level of pain which had grown gradually over time.  He thought it was normal,  and unless he was stressed by competition,  he tolerated it.  Then it was taken away and he realised what life was supposed to be like,  and refused to go back to accepting the pain like he had before.

I fear for you that Prince will one day reach the end of his stoicism and put you into orbit.  I know I'm raining on your parade here Keira, and putting doubts into your mind that,  if you are going to ride him,  you need not to have in your head.  I'm really sorry to do that to anyone.  But Prince has a long history since before you bought him and continuing after you bought him which suggest to me and others on the forum that there is a real possibility that he is in pain and that it could result in you being hurt.

Please take care.
.
		
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this is what happened to me. 

Had a niggle that something wasn’t quite right… vet wasn’t convinced that anything was wrong (nothing obvious on palpating, all checks up to date etc) until I sent him a video of H putting me into the ground out of nowhere. Turns out he had quite severe KS he’d been out jumping quite happily (and placing) on multiple occasions in the lead up to this…

The pro’s aren’t always right 🤷‍♀️


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## Upthecreek (14 October 2021)

Apizz2019 said:



			All I will say is please please do whatever you must do with your eyes wide open. Try, as hard as it is, not to take anything as gospel unless from the mouth of a qualified professional, e.g your vet, physio etc.
		
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Some great advice in your post, but I don’t agree that we should take anything as gospel from anyone. Even qualified professionals make mistakes and give incorrect advice sometimes. They are only human and they only see the horse for a brief snapshot in time. I’m not saying don’t trust them, but you should definitely question any diagnosis/treatment that doesn’t make sense or you don’t feel is right.

I will give an example. A friend of mine very recently took her horse to a very well respected horspital for a lameness workup and was given a diagnosis and treatment plan. She wasn’t able to look at the x-rays when she collected the horse for some reason, but asked for them to be sent to her. This took a couple of weeks and when she received them she realised the diagnosis and treatment was for the other front leg and not the leg the horse was lame on. So another trip to horspital for diagnosis and treatment for the lameness, which was completely different to the diagnosis and treatment given for the other leg.

Vets are not gods and there are good and bad ones, as there are in every profession.


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## Apizz2019 (14 October 2021)

Upthecreek said:



			Some great advice in your post, but I don’t agree that we should take anything as gospel from anyone. Even qualified professionals make mistakes and give incorrect advice sometimes. They are only human and they only see the horse for a brief snapshot in time. I’m not saying don’t trust them, but you should definitely question any diagnosis/treatment that doesn’t make sense or you don’t feel is right.

I will give an example. A friend of mine very recently took her horse to a very well respected horspital for a lameness workup and was given a diagnosis and treatment plan. She wasn’t able to look at the x-rays when she collected the horse for some reason, but asked for them to be sent to her. This took a couple of weeks and when she received them she realised the diagnosis and treatment was for the other front leg and not the leg the horse was lame on. So another trip to horspital for diagnosis and treatment for the lameness, which was completely different to the diagnosis and treatment given for the other leg.

Vets are not gods and there are good and bad ones, as there are in every profession.
		
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I absolutely agree with you but with a profession, a qualified professional, you have some recourse via the professional body and of course they're regulated. 

Very few 'rehab', 'behaviour specialists' etc have little more than public liability insurance and are not governed by anyone other than themselves. Also, quite often, because they're selling a service, they are accomplished sales persons who are able to draw in customers with ease, say exactly what often anguished owners want to hear and so on. There are many many cowboys out there who have left and continue to leave a trail of destruction behind them and many devastated owners in their wake, all of whom have been sucked in because they have great sales patter. 

I've had a bad experience with a vet and osteopath but had recourse through the complaints process and governing regulatory body.


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## Regandal (14 October 2021)

Apizz2019 said:



			I absolutely agree with you but with a profession, a qualified professional, you have some recourse via the professional body and of course they're regulated.

Very few 'rehab', 'behaviour specialists' etc have little more than public liability insurance and are not governed by anyone other than themselves. Also, quite often, because they're selling a service, they are accomplished sales persons who are able to draw in customers with ease, say exactly what often anguished owners want to hear and so on. There are many many cowboys out there who have left and continue to leave a trail of destruction behind them and many devastated owners in their wake, all of whom have been sucked in because they have great sales patter.

I've had a bad experience with a vet and osteopath but had recourse through the complaints process and governing regulatory body.
		
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Good Lord, yes - ask to see his insurance. Hopefully you won’t need to claim on it x


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## Tiddlypom (14 October 2021)

Regandal said:



			Good Lord, yes - ask to see his insurance. Hopefully you won’t need to claim on it x
		
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Also, would he claim from the OP for any injuries incurred to him if he gets injured by the OP's horse?

Be even more wary of using a chancer, OP.


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## Ratface (14 October 2021)

Hi, Keira,
Forgive me - I'm very late to this party.  I'm in my seventies now. I have been around ponies/horses all my life, from babyhood onwards.
 I was twenty two, with my three month old baby in his carry cot nearby.  I was starting my 4 year old  sensible 16:2hh Irish hunter mare:  I began to walk her up a slope in the field. A wasp landed on her neck and stung her. She went straight up, lost her balance and crushed me underneath her.  I had  stayed on (instinctive lean forward and hang on underneath her neck) and the saddles' cantle crushed rhe right side of my sacrum. She got up and went back to the farmhouse.  I crawled after her. Baby still asleep in his carrycot. Horse apparently OK and turned out. I  drove home, phoned mother etc.  
Local GP said I'd never walk properly again. He was right.  However, I was a runway model for Mary Quant, and have never stopped owning/ riding horses ever since.


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## Ratface (14 October 2021)

Sorry - forgot the important last bit.  I was lucky not to have been paralysed.  My mare's natural response to a wasp sting was perfectly functional.   She was eventually sold on to a local lady MFH.
Your pony's rearing  is one of his  responses to pain.  I fail to understand why you have to ride him. Lots of fun can be had without inflicting more pain.


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## flying_high (15 October 2021)

Ratface said:



			Sorry - forgot the important last bit.  I was lucky not to have been paralysed.  My mare's natural response to a wasp sting was perfectly functional.   She was eventually sold on to a local lady MFH.
Your pony's rearing  is one of his  responses to pain.  I fail to understand why you have to ride him. Lots of fun can be had without inflicting more pain.
		
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This is good advice IF the pony is currently in pain being ridden. 

After time to settle in, gut issues addressed, physio and a back muscle building groundwork program over a length of time, he may NOT be currently sore to ride. 

The KS x-rays were not that bad. There are sound happy horses working under saddle with worse back x-rays. But there are also horses with less bad kissing spine x-rays that are in significant pain ridden and are very dangerous to ride. The x-rays for kissing spine are not definitive unless combined with current pain reactions when palpitating the back and responses to be being ridden. All 3 are needed on the horse's current state to form a picture. 

No one can REMOTELY advise if he is comfortable to be ridden now, with his current back muscle state and his current saddle remotely.


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## Keira 8888 (18 October 2021)

Hi all,

So sorry I haven’t replied to all your comments. I have read them all though.

As I said before, I completely understand everyone’s misgivings.

As an update, Prince has now been analysed at work with local anaesthetic in his spine and showed no difference at all. In terms of how he carries himself, response to palpation and attitude to going forwards.

The vet is happy for me to proceed with my pole work and twice monthly chiro, as well as light hacking 4 times a week

Everything is going very well and I feel Prince is getting fitter. I have it in the back of my mind at all times that this course of smooth sailing could well end, but for now, all is very calm.

I will keep you all updated











kx


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## Keira 8888 (18 October 2021)

ycbm said:



🤦🤷
.
		
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I know it’s hard to understand, and I must seem crazy, but I just know this guy is right for Prince. I’ve always gone with my gut feeling when it comes to Prince - so far it’s served us well. I totally understand why you think this is a bad decision, but I truly feel this guy and Prince understand each other. I will keep you updated x


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## I'm Dun (18 October 2021)

Keira 8888 said:



			I know it’s hard to understand, and I must seem crazy, but I just know this guy is right for Prince. I’ve always gone with my gut feeling when it comes to Prince - so far it’s served us well. I totally understand why you think this is a bad decision, but I truly feel this guy and Prince understand each other. I will keep you updated x
		
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just make sure you are ALWAYS there when he rides or handles him please!


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## Keira 8888 (18 October 2021)

I'm Dun said:



			just make sure you are ALWAYS there when he rides or handles him please!
		
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I will - I scuttle along next to them. 😊


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## Keira 8888 (18 October 2021)

babymare said:



			Hey Keira. Let’s draw a line under the weekend and move on 😊 it’s great you are speaking with your vet about what happened. You have done so damn well with Prince. I think all of us have got carried away in a “moment” at some point and made a “wrong” decision.  So onwards and upwards and carry on giving Prince the wonderful love and care that you do 😁xx
		
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Thank you 🙏 xxx


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## Keira 8888 (18 October 2021)

Sossigpoker said:



			Oh I remember your post now - why are tou kidding yourself into thinking that your horse doesn't have a kissing spine when the x ray was rather clear?
You've allowed this horse to be bullied into behaving, despite the pain he is in. Mind blown , indeed.

If you've changed your mind about retiring him , you need his spine treated (surgery ?) And then rehabbed.  Firm handling has no place in this!

Injecting the spine is nothing to do with diagnosing a kissing spine. It is a fork of treatment to try and control the pain and inflammation in the spine.

Very disappointed by this post.
		
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I understand everything you say and why you are disappointed in my post. It was stupid of me to post that picture.
I don’t want to put Prince through surgery though, just hoping to continue with his rehab (no more letting anyone stand on his back) I have had him analysed now, with and without local anaesthetic in his spine, and he showed no difference in behaviour or how he carried himself, so I will just continue to build his back up now x


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## Keira 8888 (18 October 2021)

Winters100 said:



			Kiera I can see why you are having difficulty with this. Everyone here feels it is a bad idea, but clearly people who know both Prince and this 'pro' have advised that it is a good course of action.

I think enough has been said here about why most of us feel that, based upon the information available to us, it is the wrong course of action. I have not changed my opinion about this, and over my dead body would a 'pro' be allowed to do that to my horses, but he is your horse, I know that you have his best interests at heart, and you must do what you think best.  The only one thing I would say is _please please_ do not allow your daughter to ride Prince again until you can be really sure that it is safe for her.  Horses with pain can react in any moment. I have seen a KS horse at our stable be ridden by a pro without problems, and 5 minutes later with his owner rear, slip, and come over onto his side trapping her leg and resulting in a bad break.  She was lucky, it was just her leg.

My experience of horses, and of course this is just personal, is that near vertical rearing is not generally something done because of naughtiness or being put in a new situation, and especially not in an older horse like Prince.  In my opinion it indicated severe pain, and this is still the same horse, with the same ability to react in this way no matter how much physio or groundwork has been done - the reality is that you just don't know what he is feeling.  Whatever you decide to do with Prince please do keep yourself and your daughter safe, because injuries from horses can be life changing.
		
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Thank you Winters, I understand exactly what you are saying xx


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## Keira 8888 (18 October 2021)

Trouper said:



			Oh Keira - I am afraid that I am with everyone else who has expressed concerns about this approach to Prince. 

I know when we feel under-confident or under-qualified to do things with our horses it is all too easy to attribute "hero" status to others who seem to be able to do it with ease.  I am sure your rider did warm him up properly and all the other good things but, as @Ambers Echo has so clearly outlined, horses are experts at hiding discomfort and pain.  Prince may not be feeling it now but more regular work may ignite it, so please be careful.

Are you familiar with the work done on how horses express pain through their facial expressions and subtle behaviours?   It is worth exploring and then, when Prince is ridden again, don't look at how his body is moving all the time - look at his face and see how he is reacting there.

Above all, be guided by your vet on the sort of work Prince can do - and no one else.   Personally I would not stand on the spine of the healthiest, strongest horse in the world and anyone who did that to mine would never come near him again.  The forces concentrated down through a single point of contact are far, far greater than the dispersed weight of the average rider..

I am sorry so many of us are raining on your parade - but we are truly supportive of the wonderful work you have done with Prince so far - and we all want that journey to continue!!
		
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Thank you for this xx


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## poiuytrewq (18 October 2021)

eahotson said:



			I hadn't been aware of his history.
		
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I made the same comment at first too. I can kind of see what someone is attempting to do by standing (disclaimer, not something I’d ever do or allow!) and I think I’m this case and others it’s worked… but, I was unaware as eahotson that there was a KS diagnosis. A X-ray Is a confirmed diagnosis with no doubt.


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## Ellietotz (18 October 2021)

I understand you are taking your vets advice but something just doesn't sit right with it. For the degree of pain that was shown in his behaviour previously, I'm not sure how well a nerve block would work. Please can you PM what vet you are using? I'd be interested to know as I am local and there are a couple I would not recommend.


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## throwawayaccount (18 October 2021)

is it worth rehabbing him? I recall your old threads. I appreciate you have both been through a lot together and its great you've stuck by him. 

for my own personal opinion- if my horse's back was like that I would not entertain riding just for the sake of light hacking and some pole work. 

 sometimes its kinder to just retire and if finances allow, look for another horse to buy..or have riding lessons at a local riding school.


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## ponynutz (18 October 2021)

Definitely this thread has concerned me and I'm worried for your safety as well as the comfort of Prince.
However, if this trainer is truly intended to get through a legal setback to treatment for Prince's ultimate long-term comfort I'm afraid the positives outweigh the negatives.
If this is a long-term solution I would be very concerned...


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## flying_high (18 October 2021)

throwawayaccount said:



			is it worth rehabbing him? I recall your old threads. I appreciate you have both been through a lot together and its great you've stuck by him.

for my own personal opinion- if my horse's back was like that I would not entertain riding just for the sake of light hacking and some pole work.

sometimes its kinder to just retire and if finances allow, look for another horse to buy..or have riding lessons at a local riding school.
		
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Some of you don’t know what you are talking about.

A veterinary diagnosis of kissing spine normally needs three things


Discomfort in the back when working / ridden may cause dangerous behaviour
X-rays that show close or touching vertebrae
A positive improvement to being ridden when the affected area is nerve blocked.

Bad x-rays are not conclusive to a kissing spine long term diagnosis. Some horses with bad x-rays are happy to be ridden and show no signs of discomfort, and compete long term with no issues. Some horses have very mild issues on x-ray but very clear pain issues being ridden. Like hock issues, spine issues don’t show the whole story on x-rays. Some horses have terrible hock x-rays but are never lame or sore. Some have moderate changes on x-ray but are very sore.

Unlike hock arthritis, kissing spine can often be improved with work to improve muscle and posture.

If Prince is happy to be ridden, not changing on nerve block and doing a regular plan of strengthening postural ground work, and having regular bodywork, and all is going okay, it is NONSENSE to say he should be retired based on behaviour last year, x-rays last year.

Further more the proximity of spinal processes changes depending on whether the horse is tense / head high or head low. If you change the head height when x-raying, you can change the closeness of the spinal processes. So do need to be experienced at taking accurate spine x-rays.


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## flying_high (18 October 2021)

poiuytrewq said:



			I made the same comment at first too. I can kind of see what someone is attempting to do by standing (disclaimer, not something I’d ever do or allow!) and I think I’m this case and others it’s worked… but, I was unaware as eahotson that there was a KS diagnosis. A X-ray Is a confirmed diagnosis with no doubt.
		
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No it isnt. 

A veterinary diagnosis of kissing spine normally needs three things


Discomfort in the back when working / ridden may cause dangerous behaviour
X-rays that show close or touching vertebrae
A positive improvement to being ridden when the affected area is nerve blocked.

Bad x-rays are not conclusive to a kissing spine long term diagnosis. Some horses with bad x-rays are happy to be ridden and show no signs of discomfort, and compete long term with no issues. Some horses have very mild issues on x-ray but very clear pain issues being ridden. Like hock issues, spine issues don’t show the whole story on x-rays. Some horses have terrible hock x-rays but are never lame or sore. Some have moderate changes on x-ray but are very sore.


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## ycbm (18 October 2021)

flying_high said:



			No it isnt. 

A veterinary diagnosis of kissing spine normally needs three things


Discomfort in the back when working / ridden may cause dangerous behaviour
X-rays that show close or touching vertebrae
A positive improvement to being ridden when the affected area is nerve blocked.

Bad x-rays are not conclusive to a kissing spine long term diagnosis. Some horses with bad x-rays are happy to be ridden and show no signs of discomfort, and compete long term with no issues. Some horses have very mild issues on x-ray but very clear pain issues being ridden. Like hock issues, spine issues don’t show the whole story on x-rays. Some horses have terrible hock x-rays but are never lame or sore. Some have moderate changes on x-ray but are very sore.
		
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My own vet pointed to the obvious white marks on my horse's xrays, similar to those present on Prince's  and said that was clear evidence of kissing spines, either currently or at some point in the past. We then used anaesthetic to prove that he was in current pain from them. 

I am confused with your posts about diagnosis,  because you appear to be conflating whether the DSPs have kissed/are kissing  and whether the horse is in pain from that and reacting to it. 

Those two don't,  to me,  appear to be the same thing.  Surely it is possible to diagnose from x rays that a horse has/has had kissing spines without also knowing whether they are actually affecting the horse's behaviour?
.


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## Tiddlypom (18 October 2021)

flying_high said:



			Bad x-rays are not conclusive to a kissing spine long term diagnosis.
		
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Yes, they are, if the x rays clearly show impinging vertebrae. The horse may or may not be sore with them though, which is quite another issue.


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## ycbm (18 October 2021)

If not,  TP, I'm wondering how how a local eventer has managed to have at least 2 horses fail a vetting on kissing spine on x rays when they were in full work and the trial went so well he put down deposits to buy them to event.
.


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## fankino04 (18 October 2021)

When my mare was 3 her stifle used to lock so badly that I had to get the vet out twice to "unlock it". I didn't give much thought to this when I started backing her at 4, however when she threw me off several times in one session I got her checked out and the physio said she had some SI issues that were most likely from her dragging her "locked leg" around. She seemed to get better with physio and continued to improve when in work then would suddenly get a bit worse again. This progress and relapse went on for about 5 months and the physio requested x rays to see if there was more going on than we knew about. X rays all clear in hocks and stifle but vet did back as well just in case. He declared she had very slight kissing spines but that in his opinion it wasn't bothering her at all and there was probably lots of horses out competing happily who may look the same on X ray. She did strengthen up and stop having issues so I guess X rays don't always show the full picture, but I stand by mine and others previous comments in that I would want to see a new set of X rays to show if the rehab work so far had changed anything, and given what others locally have said about the "professional rider" I would be looking for a different person to help. That said it's keirras horse, her responsibility, and her decisions to make and I think we should all draw a line under this now before the thread takes a bullying tone.


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## throwawayaccount (18 October 2021)

flying_high said:



			Some of you don’t know what you are talking about.

A veterinary diagnosis of kissing spine normally needs three things


Discomfort in the back when working / ridden may cause dangerous behaviour
X-rays that show close or touching vertebrae
A positive improvement to being ridden when the affected area is nerve blocked.

Bad x-rays are not conclusive to a kissing spine long term diagnosis. Some horses with bad x-rays are happy to be ridden and show no signs of discomfort, and compete long term with no issues. Some horses have very mild issues on x-ray but very clear pain issues being ridden. Like hock issues, spine issues don’t show the whole story on x-rays. Some horses have terrible hock x-rays but are never lame or sore. Some have moderate changes on x-ray but are very sore.

Unlike hock arthritis, kissing spine can often be improved with work to improve muscle and posture.

If Prince is happy to be ridden, not changing on nerve block and doing a regular plan of strengthening postural ground work, and having regular bodywork, and all is going okay, it is NONSENSE to say he should be retired based on behaviour last year, x-rays last year.

Further more the proximity of spinal processes changes depending on whether the horse is tense / head high or head low. If you change the head height when x-raying, you can change the closeness of the spinal processes. So do need to be experienced at taking accurate spine x-rays.
		
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Hello, I do have a good idea of what I’m talking about else I wouldn’t have replied , please note my reply was quite small and not in length because I can’t be bothered getting into my own experiences and not wanting to derail OP’s thread- hence why I put it was my own personal opinion which is I don’t think there is any point to forcing a horse to be ridden for the sake of light work. There’s nothing to say groundwork or walking inhand couldn’t be done as opposed to getting a professional to stand on the horses back.. not sure what that’s achieving tbh?

NONE of us know what’s going on behind the scenes and can only go off what OP chooses to share.

Generally speaking-
If a horse keeps breaking down There’s usually reasons why

apologies for typos if any

To reiterate I think the OP has done a great job sticking by her horse when not many would and I am keeping my fingers crossed for a good future for both her and her horse.


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## flying_high (18 October 2021)

throwawayaccount said:



			Hello, I do have a good idea of what I’m talking about else I wouldn’t have replied , please note my reply was quite small and not in length because I can’t be bothered getting into my own experiences and not wanting to derail OP’s thread- hence why I put it was my own personal opinion which is I don’t think there is any point to forcing a horse to be ridden for the sake of light work. There’s nothing to say groundwork or walking inhand couldn’t be done as opposed to getting a professional to stand on the horses back.. not sure what that’s achieving tbh?

NONE of us know what’s going on behind the scenes and can only go off what OP chooses to share.

Generally speaking-
*If a horse keeps breaking down There’s usually reasons why*

apologies for typos if any
		
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But Prince doesnt keep breaking down? He had gut and behaviour issues and back problems when he first arrived. He has had time off, rehab groundwork and bodywork. He know appears to be better muscled, more settled and happy to be ridden, based on the opinion of three professionals on the ground, and his owner's assessment of his reactions to being ridden. I dont see what you are concluding that he keeps breaking down from. And think you are being really quite emotive in telling the owner what she must do, based on your opinion.


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## throwawayaccount (18 October 2021)

flying_high said:



			But Prince doesnt keep breaking down? He had gut and behaviour issues and back problems when he first arrived. He has had time off, rehab groundwork and bodywork. He know appears to be better muscled, more settled and happy to be ridden, based on the opinion of three professionals on the ground, and his owner's assessment of his reactions to being ridden. I dont see what you are concluding that he keeps breaking down from. And think you are being really quite emotive in telling the owner what she must do, based on your opinion.
		
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i said “GENERALLY SPEAKING” 

i have NOT told OP what to do. Please reread what I have wrote.


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## flying_high (18 October 2021)

ycbm said:



			If not,  TP, I'm wondering how how a local eventer has managed to have at least 2 horses fail a vetting on kissing spine on x rays when they were in full work and the trial went so well he put down deposits to buy them to event.
.
		
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I think that is semantics. X-rays can show too close vertebrae that is by definition kissing spine, and if a professional is about to invest 10's of thousands in buying a competition event horse they would absolutely walk away. 

However a personal horse that has spine x-rays and shows close or touching vertebrae, may not ever be in pain or impacted by the vertebrae or have their working life changed by it. A sports vet, doing a work up on a horse will not typically diagnose kissing spine as the source of the problem without the three things present

1) pain when working
2) improvement when area nerve blocked
3) close or touching processes on x-ray

There is a difference between observing something on a vetting x-ray, and diagnosing it as the source of problem in a work up.


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## flying_high (18 October 2021)

throwawayaccount said:



			i said “GENERALLY SPEAKING”

i have NOT told OP what to do. Please reread what I have wrote.
		
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Yes you have, you have said if it was your horse you would retire, and get another riding horse or ride at a riding school. That is pretty EMOTIVE OPINION giving. 

"is it worth rehabbing him? I recall your old threads. I appreciate you have both been through a lot together and its great you've stuck by him.

for my own personal opinion- if my horse's back was like that I would not entertain riding just for the sake of light hacking and some pole work.

sometimes its kinder to just retire and if finances allow, look for another horse to buy..or have riding lessons at a local riding school. "


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## throwawayaccount (18 October 2021)

flying_high said:



			Yes you have, you have said if it was your horse you would retire, and get another riding horse or ride at a riding school. That is pretty EMOTIVE OPINION giving.

"is it worth rehabbing him? I recall your old threads. I appreciate you have both been through a lot together and its great you've stuck by him.

for my own personal opinion- if my horse's back was like that I would not entertain riding just for the sake of light hacking and some pole work.

sometimes its kinder to just retire and if finances allow, look for another horse to buy..or have riding lessons at a local riding school. "
		
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that is not telling somebody what to do. That is called giving an opinion as stated,  

This is opposed to directly giving the OP an instruction and telling her what she must or should do. ie: this is what I think and this is what you should do. 

Something I would NOT do because no one has the right to tell OP what to do we can only advise , give our experiences or opinions, in a polite way- which I did 

stop derailing the thread and nitpicking at my answers


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## Ellietotz (18 October 2021)

flying_high said:



			Yes you have, you have said if it was your horse you would retire, and get another riding horse or ride at a riding school. That is pretty EMOTIVE OPINION giving.

"is it worth rehabbing him? I recall your old threads. I appreciate you have both been through a lot together and its great you've stuck by him.

for my own personal opinion- if my horse's back was like that I would not entertain riding just for the sake of light hacking and some pole work.

sometimes its kinder to just retire and if finances allow, look for another horse to buy..or have riding lessons at a local riding school. "
		
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That's an opinion and suggestion. Very different from TAA telling OP what to do.


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## Amymay (18 October 2021)

Honestly, what a fuss.  Her horse, her decisions. 

Really think people should refrain from commenting further.


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## flying_high (18 October 2021)

throwawayaccount said:



			that is not telling somebody what to do. That is called giving an opinion as stated, 

ie: this is what I think and this is what you should do.

Something I would NOT do because no one has the right to tell OP what to do we can only advise , give our experiences or opinions, in a polite way- which I did

stop derailing the thread and nitpicking at my answers
		
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I am not de-railing the thread. 

I am pointing out to the people that are stating categorically based on the evidence to date that they would not ride Prince again, are not looking at all the evidence and all the typical tests used to diagnose that kissing spine is a current problem. (No telling if it might become a future problem again). 

Personally I think the people who keep stating in their opinion, based on the evidence, if Prince was theirs they'd not ride him again, because of the not recent x-rays, are verging on bullying the OP.


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## throwawayaccount (18 October 2021)

good luck with Prince OP, I’m sorry if what I said came across as rude as that wasn’t my intention. So I do apologise

I’ve had similar experiences and so have friends - I therefore know how heartbreaking and stressful it can be


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## CanteringCarrot (18 October 2021)

Edit: never mind. No point to the discussion.


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## Amymay (18 October 2021)

Actually CC, this thread has come very close to bullying.


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## canteron (18 October 2021)

I am shocked at how many people have made huge judgements on such little information.

Take advice but trust your judgement.


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## ycbm (18 October 2021)

flying_high said:



			X-rays can show too close vertebrae that is by definition kissing spine
		
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That appears to be the  the reverse of what you said in post 123.

Keira,  can i make it clear,  my issue here is not with you riding Prince.  As I posted on your thread  where you posted x rays,  I am fully in support of you riding him again, irrespective of the fact that we all now agree that he has kissing spines on x ray. Many happy working horses will have worse x rays.  

I was concerned at your choice of professional and, from my own experience, very worried about your safety.  But if you are settled on both those issues then nobody will be happier that your in hand rehab has worked and you are finally able to ride the horse you bought. 

And I remain in awe of your ability to keep your cool and answer all our doubts so calmly!
.


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## Red-1 (18 October 2021)

Lovely videos, Kiera.

I don't know if you are on the right track or the wrong. I don't know if you and Prince will ride off into the sunset, or if he will put you in hospital.

What I do know is that you are his owner and acting as such, following your gut feeling, standing up for what you think. That is what makes you his owner.

From your previous threads, I have no doubt that, if things start to go wrong, you will alter what you do. I know you have taken on board what people have said about sudden explosions, and have chosen to follow your gut on that. I hope that, if one day he seems off colour or less settled, you will again follow your gut as to what to do.

Meanwhile, I am happy for you. You have sought various points of view. You have rested Prince, sought veterinary opinion, followed vet advice, done a rehab program, found someone to help. I sincerely hope the good news and happy hacking continues.


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## flying_high (18 October 2021)

ycbm said:



			That appears to be the  the reverse of what you said in post 123.
.
		
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I didnt do a very good job of defining the difference between spinal x-ray changes found in a vetting x-ray and when it is part of vet work for a personal riding horse that has a performance issues. Colloquially both conditions are termed the same. But the conclusive diagnosis of kissing spines as the cause of a performance issue is very different. 

There is the close / touching vertebrae on a PURCHASE  x-ray that you'd potentially walk away from without investigating. And it may be that the horse's x-rays never cause it a day's problem. It may be the horse never has any clinic signs of any problem. The problem at this point is not yet diagnosed as kissing spines that are causing an issue. 

Versus when your own personal ridden horse has close / touching vertebrae on an x-ray found in a vet work up. If there is  then evidence of pain ridden, and an improvement on nerve block then the work up is likely to conclude the problem IS kissing spines.


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## flying_high (18 October 2021)

Red-1 said:



			Lovely videos, Kiera.

I don't know if you are on the right track or the wrong. I don't know if you and Prince will ride off into the sunset, or if he will put you in hospital.

What I do know is that you are his owner and acting as such, following your gut feeling, standing up for what you think. That is what makes you his owner.

From your previous threads, I have no doubt that, if things start to go wrong, you will alter what you do. I know you have taken on board what people have said about sudden explosions, and have chosen to follow your gut on that. I hope that, if one day he seems off colour or less settled, you will again follow your gut as to what to do.

Meanwhile, I am happy for you. You have sought various points of view. You have rested Prince, sought veterinary opinion, followed vet advice, done a rehab program, found someone to help. I sincerely hope the good news and happy hacking continues.
		
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LOVE THIS


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## Deleted member 150717 (19 October 2021)

I think everyone needs to stop sugar coating the reality of this horses future if it’s treated like this. Come on this is ridiculous. Your poor horse.


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## TPO (19 October 2021)

Rescue.12 said:



			I think everyone needs to stop sugar coating the reality of this horses future if it’s treated like this. Come on this is ridiculous. Your poor horse.
		
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What absolute nonsense. 

It wasn't so long ago that you were asking for basic advice on here yourself and didn't like some of the replies so why are you writing a nasty reply to Kiera? Even more so when it's not something that you are experienced about.


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## Deleted member 150717 (19 October 2021)

TPO said:



			What absolute nonsense.

It wasn't so long ago that you were asking for basic advice on here yourself and didn't like some of the replies so why are you writing a nasty reply to Kiera? Even more so when it's not something that you are experienced about.
		
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Because I have enough basic knowledge to know that this is wrong, and what that horse had to go though to be ‘trained’ is not right.


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## TPO (19 October 2021)

Rescue.12 said:



			Because I have enough basic knowledge to know that this is wrong, and what that horse had to go though to be ‘trained’ is not right.
		
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What's not right? Expand on your claim.

Horse with KS are rehabbed all the time. Prince didn't change when the area was blocked. The veterinary indications are that he is not in pain.

The early indications of pain e.g. rearing could all easily be attributed to numerous things for example being unsettled with all the moves/new home, novice rider/handler, "gung ho" not very competent "pro" rider, change of feed, hives, ulcers, lack of schooling/training/understanding 

Kiera is doing the bog standard rehab with groundwork, poles and regular therapist as well as working with, and under, vet instructions.

But yeah go ahead and post completely unfounded hurtful comments when you have no idea.


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## Tiddlypom (19 October 2021)

Amymay said:



			Actually CC, this thread has come very close to bullying.
		
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Some posts are rather near to the knuckle, but mostly folk are just genuinely worried that a well meaning but inexperienced owner is going to end up very seriously injured after being led up the garden path by a numbskull who stands on horses' backs.

KS horses can be rehabbed, sometimes successfully, but the correct slow, steady and frankly often boring work before anyone gets back on the horse is vital.

It only takes a moment for someone to suffer life changing injuries. None of us want to see that happen to Kiera.

But hey, she's an adult, the advice given on here is for her to take it or leave it.


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## Winters100 (19 October 2021)

Rescue.12 said:



			Because I have enough basic knowledge to know that this is wrong, and what that horse had to go though to be ‘trained’ is not right.
		
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I think we have to be very careful about saying that something is 'wrong' when we have not seen the horse, been present at the training or spoken to the vet.

Yes, many of us have expressed concerns, but in this case the owner has clearly taken these into consideration in making her decision. In addition Kiera is clearly a very caring owner, and I am quite certain that if her vet had told her that the horse should not be ridden then she would not do so.  We cannot say whether this route is the right one or not, because we all as owners sometimes have to try something where there are no guarantees, but her vet has agreed that the horse is suitable for light hacking, so who are we to disagree?

I think the main red flag to most of us was the standing on the back, and Keira has clearly taken this on board and said that she will not allow it again. 

In my opinion the owner in this case is simply trying to do her best for the horse, she has taken advice from a vet, and while I do have some concerns surrounding her safety I believe that there is some chance that the horse can be brought back into work, and I really hope that this is the case.


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## GrassChop (19 October 2021)

Tiddlypom said:



			Some posts are rather near to the knuckle, but mostly folk are just genuinely worried that a well meaning but inexperienced owner is going to end up very seriously injured after being led up the garden path by a numbskull who stands on horses' backs.
		
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I agree with this. I don't think it's bullying, it's no different to other threads on here similar to this otherwise there are tonnes that would be considered bullying.


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## Tihamandturkey (19 October 2021)

Tiddlypom said:



			Some posts are rather near to the knuckle, but mostly folk are just genuinely worried that a well meaning but inexperienced owner is going to end up very seriously injured after being led up the garden path by a numbskull who stands on horses' backs.

KS horses can be rehabbed, sometimes successfully, but the correct slow, steady and frankly often boring work before anyone gets back on the horse is vital.

It only takes a moment for someone to suffer life changing injuries. None of us want to see that happen to Kiera.

But hey, she's an adult, the advice given on here is for her to take it or leave it.
		
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This 100%


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## Tihamandturkey (19 October 2021)

GrassChop said:



			I agree with this. I don't think it's bullying, it's no different to other threads on here similar to this otherwise there are tonnes that would be considered bullying.
		
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Exactly


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## spotty_pony (19 October 2021)

Is this the first time this horse has been ridden after a break? Apologies for my ignorance but I haven’t followed his story. If he has got KS, he may be well behaved now but an explosion in the near future is inevitable as he becomes sore again. Get the Vet out.


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## ester (19 October 2021)

He's just seen the vet?


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## Keith_Beef (19 October 2021)

I really think that is time to give Keira a bit of piece and quiet, to stop being so judgemental, and let her sort it out for herself.

I have no doubt that what she wants is for Prince to be comfortable and pain-free, and she would like to be able to ride him if that's possible.

You can have misgivings about the methods used by the bloke she got in to work with Prince, but I really don't think that Keira is being callous or cruel.


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## Keira 8888 (20 October 2021)

Keith_Beef said:



			I really think that is time to give Keira a bit of piece and quiet, to stop being so judgemental, and let her sort it out for herself.

I have no doubt that what she wants is for Prince to be comfortable and pain-free, and she would like to be able to ride him if that's possible.

You can have misgivings about the methods used by the bloke she got in to work with Prince, but I really don't think that Keira is being callous or cruel.
		
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Thank you Keith 🙏


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## Pinkvboots (20 October 2021)

I think at the end of the day you can offer your opinion but no one here has actually seen the horses or dealt with it.

Keira has and although you may not agree with her trainer or bringing him back into work, there comes a point when it's her horse so her choices and that has to be accepted 😉


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## Keira 8888 (4 November 2021)

Hi all!

Quick update.

Things going really well! Prince going so well, we have been hacking out and adventuring together without any hitch. I had his chiropractor out today and he was happy with everything BUT! Thinks I should now get him shod since I am riding again.

Im confused by this as Prince is 6 months approx into his barefoot journey and the positives are massive! He was 100% sound in his trot up. He has grown so much hoof and it’s good quality! No more chipping and all we do is walk and trot - I really don’t want to get him shod. He has negative palmer angles and I don’t want shoes to offer a short term solution that will eventually crush his heels.

Sometimes my head spins by how many professionals I involve in Prince and none of them agree! But I’m feeling a bit more empowered now having owned him for 1.5 years and learned so much. I am neither pro shoe or pro barefoot - how can you be one or the other without considering the individual horse??!

So I am going to keep Prince in his hoof boots and continue on my current path as I am not going to change things if he is currently sound.

I can now tack him up fully with no complaints and he practically opens his mouth for the bit.

I can only put this down to consistency rather than anything else. He has responded so well to work every day (which is what many people told me he needed ) 

I can’t quite believe we are finally making progress! With every ride he naps less and his ears are like radars - flicking back to listen to me all the time.

Im so happy 💖💖


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## black and brown (4 November 2021)

Well done for having the confidence to continue barefoot. Everything seems to be going well, so I wouldn't want to make a change to shoes. You've gone on instinct so far, so keep going without shoes if that feels right to you!


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## Keira 8888 (4 November 2021)

black and brown said:



			Well done for having the confidence to continue barefoot. Everything seems to be going well, so I wouldn't want to make a change to shoes. You've gone on instinct so far, so keep going without shoes if that feels right to you!
		
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Thank you!!! Xxx


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## Amymay (5 November 2021)

That’s a fabulous update.  If you’re happy with him unshod, don’t be pushed in to shoeing him x


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## Red-1 (5 November 2021)

Great news!

With mine, I keep them barefoot while they are comfortable. If they show signs of not being comfortable, I shoe (as long as the discomfort is from additional work - if it were unexplained I would get a vet exam!). If  I reduce work again, I take the shoes off again.

Currently I have one shod and one only in fronts. Before we upped the hacking, I had one barefoot and one in fronts only. 

The good behaviour with Prince is all the better as this is traditionally a skittish time of year, with an autumn flush of grass coinciding with more hours in the stable and cold weather.


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## CanteringCarrot (5 November 2021)

I feel as though many equine professionals jump to the shoe conclusion. If they see something wrong/lameness/or whatever it may be,  they suggest shoes. A proper barefoot rehab can take time. Mine took 9 months to grow out horrendous quarter cracks, but he was sound and comfortable (moreso than when he was shod). Obviously people saw a crack and said, he needs shoes! But that was not the case.

It's the same with fixing angles, it doesn't happen overnight, and perhaps it shouldn't. A dramatic change vs a slow and steady change may not be the best thing in all cases.

If his hooves are going in a good direction, his body feels good, and he's happy in the level of work he's in, I see no reason for shoes, personally. The suggestion sort of perplexes me when  he's sound and growing good hoof (even better quality than when he was shod). Many think a ridden horse needs shoes, and that's simply not the case all of the time. It sounds like you're on a good way with him. Pleased to hear it.


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## poiuytrewq (5 November 2021)

Good to read Keira!


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## Trouper (5 November 2021)

Great update - and thank you for your patience will all our comments!!!

After many ups and downs with my two, someone (whose judgement I respected) said to me one day "you know your horse best" and I realised I did.  Sub-consciously my brain had been processing all the advice but I was able to apply it to the horse in front of me and come up with the best solution.  I agree with continuing with boots - a quick fix with shoes could throw him out somewhere else and that is the last thing you want now.

Happy Hacking!!


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## Pinkvboots (5 November 2021)

Glad his going well I wouldn't shoe him if his comfortable without.


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## Berpisc (5 November 2021)

Great update, so pleased for you , I would keep him unshod if that is what suits Prince, you are aware and sensible enough to know your horse and what works for him. There is nothing stopping you putting shoes on if you need them.


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## tristar (5 November 2021)

Keira 8888 said:



			Hi all!

Quick update.

Things going really well! Prince going so well, we have been hacking out and adventuring together without any hitch. I had his chiropractor out today and he was happy with everything BUT! Thinks I should now get him shod since I am riding again.

Im confused by this as Prince is 6 months approx into his barefoot journey and the positives are massive! He was 100% sound in his trot up. He has grown so much hoof and it’s good quality! No more chipping and all we do is walk and trot - I really don’t want to get him shod. He has negative palmer angles and I don’t want shoes to offer a short term solution that will eventually crush his heels.

Sometimes my head spins by how many professionals I involve in Prince and none of them agree! But I’m feeling a bit more empowered now having owned him for 1.5 years and learned so much. I am neither pro shoe or pro barefoot - how can you be one or the other without considering the individual horse??!

So I am going to keep Prince in his hoof boots and continue on my current path as I am not going to change things if he is currently sound.

I can now tack him up fully with no complaints and he practically opens his mouth for the bit.

I can only put this down to consistency rather than anything else. He has responded so well to work every day (which is what many people told me he needed ) 

I can’t quite believe we are finally making progress! With every ride he naps less and his ears are like radars - flicking back to listen to me all the time.

Im so happy 💖💖
		
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so pleased for you, please don`t shoe him, it took mine 18 months to fully adapt and to learn what is best and be sure i know what i am doing.

if he is improving so much dont change anything, until your gut tells you  the  way forwards

what i have learned with horses is that simplicity is the ultimate destination, get it right , keep it simple and natural

those who say to work him are right, and lots of walk and trot hacking is the best way forwards, its  so good for them


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## Tarragon (5 November 2021)

So pleased to read that update! sounds like you have a happy horse.
I would keep him barefoot and in boots while it works for you both. I can see absolutely no justification of shoeing him now. As you say, just watch how it goes.


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## webble (5 November 2021)

Good decision well done


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## SatansLittleHelper (5 November 2021)

Lovely update Keira and very happy to be proved wrong on my initial judgement of the situation 😀 
As for the shoe situation,  stick to what you feel is right. I'm like you  neither for nor against shoes.....if they need them they get them. Both of mine aren't shod and are fine but if they should need them in the future I wouldn't hesitate


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## Redders (5 November 2021)

Excellent going Keira. Very pleased for you both. Well done


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## eahotson (5 November 2021)

Keira 8888 said:



			Hi all!

Quick update.

Things going really well! Prince going so well, we have been hacking out and adventuring together without any hitch. I had his chiropractor out today and he was happy with everything BUT! Thinks I should now get him shod since I am riding again.

Im confused by this as Prince is 6 months approx into his barefoot journey and the positives are massive! He was 100% sound in his trot up. He has grown so much hoof and it’s good quality! No more chipping and all we do is walk and trot - I really don’t want to get him shod. He has negative palmer angles and I don’t want shoes to offer a short term solution that will eventually crush his heels.

Sometimes my head spins by how many professionals I involve in Prince and none of them agree! But I’m feeling a bit more empowered now having owned him for 1.5 years and learned so much. I am neither pro shoe or pro barefoot - how can you be one or the other without considering the individual horse??!

So I am going to keep Prince in his hoof boots and continue on my current path as I am not going to change things if he is currently sound.

I can now tack him up fully with no complaints and he practically opens his mouth for the bit.

I can only put this down to consistency rather than anything else. He has responded so well to work every day (which is what many people told me he needed )

I can’t quite believe we are finally making progress! With every ride he naps less and his ears are like radars - flicking back to listen to me all the time.

Im so happy 💖💖
		
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Go with your own but instincts .If he is happy without shoes leave him that way.


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## Mrs. Jingle (5 November 2021)

Great update, I am another who shoes if needed and doesn't if they are sound and happy without.


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## Birker2020 (5 November 2021)

ownedbyaconnie said:



			A friend had a pony who would plant with her but not with a pro rider so for a long time thought pony was taking the p with her. Turns out she had grade 4 ulcers. The pro rider was just more effective at riding the pony through it…
		
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Yes I agree with this, I have first hand experience of this in the past.  A pro rider can hide a multitude of sins.


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## ycbm (5 November 2021)

I think huge caution is needed with a horse with negative coffin bone angles.  It's my experience that these are often found in a vicious circle with back pain/hock/psd issues.  Back pain/hock pain/psd/SI issues lead to low heels,  low heels lead to back pain/psd/hock/SI issues.  It's sometimes difficult to work out which came first but once you've got them and a horse with evidence of current or previous pain it can be a devil to resolve.

My advice would be a very slow and cautious barefoot rehab with no strenuous work until the heels have rebuilt and corrected the negative coffin bone angle. That takes miles in largely straight lines in walk. 

I'm pleased for you it's started well Keira,  and hope that carries on for you both.
.


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## skint1 (5 November 2021)

I am really so pleased to read your update, I am so glad you and Prince are making progress, long may it continue! x


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## Keira 8888 (5 November 2021)

skint1 said:



			I am really so pleased to read your update, I am so glad you and Prince are making progress, long may it continue! x
		
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Ahh thank you so much!!!! Have just come back from checking on him as there is a fireworks display going on on our doorstep! Xx


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## Keira 8888 (5 November 2021)

ycbm said:



			I think huge caution is needed with a horse with negative coffin bone angles.  It's my experience that these are often found in a vicious circle with back pain/hock/psd issues.  Back pain/hock pain/psd/SI issues lead to low heels,  low heels lead to back pain/psd/hock/SI issues.  It's sometimes difficult to work out which came first but once you've got them and a horse with evidence of current or previous pain it can be a devil to resolve.

My advice would be a very slow and cautious barefoot rehab with no strenuous work until the heels have rebuilt and corrected the negative coffin bone angle. That takes miles in largely straight lines in walk.

I'm pleased for you it's started well Keira,  and hope that carries on for you both.
.
		
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Thank you 🙏 Do you have any personal experience with this? I’m trying to Google it but not coming up with too much. Stupid question, but is the coffin bone the same as the pedal bone? His pedal bone is parallel to the ground rather than on an angle. I asked the vet if this would cause him pain and they said not. Can I trust this? Xx


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## Alwaysmoretoknow (5 November 2021)

Just to put a bit of background into this story the only person who considered Prince 'dangerous' was Keira's first YO who was by no means a professional. He is an older chap who has a couple of 'unchallenging' cob types and decided to be a 'hero' to Keira and basically show off a bit. So he took a horse that had been through a pretty traumatic time and had a serious number of health issues (that Keira was carefully addressing) and had an anxious first time owner on a yard that had a terrific number of spooky challenges  and decided to whack him with a whip when he showed some reluctance to go forward. Well he bit off a bit more than he could chew and promptly regretted his decision so put Keira back on after the big rear. Not so much of a hero after all.
When I assessed Prince I found him a calm, compliant, sensible horse who lacked a bit of confidence (unsuprising after his recent history and Keira's anxiety about the whole situation she found her self in). He seemed to me to be a horse that had been well produced, trained and managed (possibly a hunt horse given his type etc) but had worked hard for his living and showed some signs of wear and tear but generally seemed pretty sound and level in his work for a horse of his age, type and (unknown) history before he fell on hard times and got shunted into the dodgy dealer go-round/auction system in Ireland. While I don't condone the ex-jockey's wriggling up from the ground thing and the standing on the back thing ( although it was far away from the possible intersecting spinal flanges) I can kind of see that the point was to engender some confidence in Keira  that her horse wasn't a dangerous killer. If all Keira wants to do is bimble about for a lovely, unchallenging hack on the New Forest then I think that should be well within Prince's comfort zone and will probably keep him physically and mentally stimulated for his long term benefit
Keira I hope you don't mind me posting this very honest assesment of my personal opinion.


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## ester (5 November 2021)

yup coffin= pedal


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## Keira 8888 (5 November 2021)

Alwaysmoretoknow said:



			Just to put a bit of background into this story the only person who considered Prince 'dangerous' was Keira's first YO who was by no means a professional. He is an older chap who has a couple of 'unchallenging' cob types and decided to be a 'hero' to Keira and basically show off a bit. So he took a horse that had been through a pretty traumatic time and had a serious number of health issues (that Keira was carefully addressing) and had an anxious first time owner on a yard that had a terrific number of spooky challenges  and decided to whack him with a whip when he showed some reluctance to go forward. Well he bit off a bit more than he could chew and promptly regretted his decision so put Keira back on after the big rear. Not so much of a hero after all.
When I assessed Prince I found him a calm, compliant, sensible horse who lacked a bit of confidence (unsuprising after his recent history and Keira's anxiety about the whole situation she found her self in). He seemed to me to be a horse that had been well produced, trained and managed (possibly a hunt horse given his type etc) but had worked hard for his living and showed some signs of wear and tear but generally seemed pretty sound and level in his work for a horse of his age, type and (unknown) history before he fell on hard times and got shunted into the dodgy dealer go-round/auction system in Ireland. While I don't condone the ex-jockey's wriggling up from the ground thing and the standing on the back thing ( although it was far away from the possible intersecting spinal flanges) I can kind of see that the point was to engender some confidence in Keira  that her horse wasn't a dangerous killer. If all Keira wants to do is bimble about for a lovely, unchallenging hack on the New Forest then I think that should be well within Prince's comfort zone and will probably keep him physically and mentally stimulated for his long term benefit
Keira I hope you don't mind me posting this very honest assesment of my personal opinion.
		
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Angie, your post has actually made me cry (in a good way) You have been there from almost the beginning and I wouldn’t be where I am now with Prince if it wasn’t for you. You picked me up every time I needed it and I will never forget it. By god I’ve made mistakes along the way but every tough journey is usually the most potent learning experience!

Some people on this forum have very kindly said that they think I have been patient with certain comments and opinions (on my entire journey with Prince)

I just want to take this opportunity to say, I am acutely aware of which posters are constructively giving their opinion (may it agree or oppose) and which posters are clearly enjoying an opportunity to ignite matters for an unproductive reason!

It’s not an easy journey for any of us horse owners, especially novice ones like myself. I just feel incredibly privileged to have Angie (alwaysmoretoknow) by my side as I try to make sense if this confusing equine world and community. 

Thank you xx


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## ycbm (5 November 2021)

Keira 8888 said:



			Thank you 🙏 Do you have any personal experience with this? I’m trying to Google it but not coming up with too much. Stupid question, but is the coffin bone the same as the pedal bone? His pedal bone is parallel to the ground rather than on an angle. I asked the vet if this would cause him pain and they said not. Can I trust this? Xx
		
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Coffin = pedal and flat is much better than negative and nearly flat can be normal.  It will be stretching his suspensory ligaments and deep digital flexor tendon,  but if that happened gradually over time then your vet is likely to be right about lack of pain.  It will also stress the joints in the foot and pastern because the angles of all of those will be wrong.

The question is why it happened (the back?  something else?). The most likely guess is that his back caused him to "stand under" instead of on top of his feet and that in turn caused collapsed heels.  But it could be the other way around and shoes could have collapsed his heels and that caused a bad stance and back pain.

The good news is that it should be fixable, but be careful of doing much except slow work on straight lines until you are seeing more strength in his heels,  or the whole pain cycle could start again.  I think that probably fits with what you feel comfortable with anyway?


Take a look at the back of his foot Keira. Is there a V in the hair line?   When that goes straight,  your coffin bone angle will probably be fixed.
.


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## eahotson (6 November 2021)

Alwaysmoretoknow said:



			Just to put a bit of background into this story the only person who considered Prince 'dangerous' was Keira's first YO who was by no means a professional. He is an older chap who has a couple of 'unchallenging' cob types and decided to be a 'hero' to Keira and basically show off a bit. So he took a horse that had been through a pretty traumatic time and had a serious number of health issues (that Keira was carefully addressing) and had an anxious first time owner on a yard that had a terrific number of spooky challenges  and decided to whack him with a whip when he showed some reluctance to go forward. Well he bit off a bit more than he could chew and promptly regretted his decision so put Keira back on after the big rear. Not so much of a hero after all.
When I assessed Prince I found him a calm, compliant, sensible horse who lacked a bit of confidence (unsuprising after his recent history and Keira's anxiety about the whole situation she found her self in). He seemed to me to be a horse that had been well produced, trained and managed (possibly a hunt horse given his type etc) but had worked hard for his living and showed some signs of wear and tear but generally seemed pretty sound and level in his work for a horse of his age, type and (unknown) history before he fell on hard times and got shunted into the dodgy dealer go-round/auction system in Ireland. While I don't condone the ex-jockey's wriggling up from the ground thing and the standing on the back thing ( although it was far away from the possible intersecting spinal flanges) I can kind of see that the point was to engender some confidence in Keira  that her horse wasn't a dangerous killer. If all Keira wants to do is bimble about for a lovely, unchallenging hack on the New Forest then I think that should be well within Prince's comfort zone and will probably keep him physically and mentally stimulated for his long term benefit
Keira I hope you don't mind me posting this very honest assesment of my personal opinion.
		
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hearing all that makes me happy for Prince,,that he had landed in a nice home and I have my fingers crossed for their continued success.


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## Ratface (6 November 2021)

Well done, Keira. Your care and love for Prince are truly heart-warming. 
Also for your acceptance of the sometimes assertive nature of the H&H online community's way of going.
Happy trails.


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