# Feeding horse with EMS



## bubbilygum (28 January 2012)

My cob is currently on box rest recovering from laminitis and awaiting results for his bloodtest to see if he has EMS. He has all of the common EMS symptoms so I am treating him as if he has EMS for now to be on the safe side. He definitely needs to lose a few pounds (!) but I am cautious not to underfeed him. From calculating his weight with the girth/length equation he comes up at about 600kg. He's 15.1hh, but very heavy built. Most of the literature I read says I should be feeding at a bare minimum 1% to 1.5% of his weight to healthily promote his weight loss, so would feeding him 6kg to 9kg of hay be right? I can soak his hay to leech some sugar out, and double netting it makes it last longer... Am I going the right way about this? How much would you be feeding if you were managing him? Nearer the 6kg mark or the 9kg mark?
Also I am looking into getting him supplements, as I don't want him to become deficient being off grass and having nothing but soaked hay! Would a broad spectrum supplement suffice, or are there specific supplements which are more suitable for horses on box rest? I have also heard that MagOx can help horses with EMS, would you recommend this? 
Sorry for all the questions! If anyone could make any suggestions about any of this I would be hugely grateful!


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## DuckToller (28 January 2012)

If his laminitis has stabilised, I would be inclined to go with the 1.5% diet, as 1% is, I believe, only used where fat natives are hugely resistant to weight loss - usually 1.5% works and gives a gradual decrease.  Plus I hate seeing a horse hugely hungry, so I am with the 9kg mark unless vet thinks he needs to drop weight more quickly. 

Like the idea of double netting to make it last longer, and soaking the hay (after weighing it of course!) to get rid of some of the sugar.  They say it is best to change the water after a few hours if you can to get rid of more sugar (not always possible if you are at a yard) and in cold weather less sugar leeches out - just a few tips I have picked up.  

I have a 12yr old with EMS, and I feed him on Dodson & Horrell Safe and Sound, with a generous scoop of speedibeet which most of mine find tasteless but luckily as he is the equine equivalent of a labrador he eats it with relish. 

I avoid treats like carrots and apples as sugar too high, but he does get sugar-free polos from his fan club  

When it has been too cold to soak hay, I bought the Marksway horsehage high fibre (it's in a blue wrapper, costs about £8 which lasts approx 2-3 days) - quite expensive but worth it for mine until his laminitis had stabilised, as just a carrier-bag full of rich haylage can give mine a digital pulse.

I have been managing mine for a year and, touch wood, he hasn't had a relapse for a year, although summer was a challenge.  I only turned out early morning, as sugar levels rise during the day and peak at mid afternoon, so he came in by 11am.  Exercise really helps - he can have more time at grass if he is being ridden.

It really is a juggling act - if mine is being ridden in the afternoon, I let him out for longer in the morning, as the extra sugar in his blood is then used up by the muscles.  But he can't go out for longer AFTER being ridden instead as it doesn't work that way.  Basically, I treat him as a diabetic and pinch ideas from diabetic friends - it works!


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## bubbilygum (28 January 2012)

Thank you! That is all really helpful. It seems like such a guessing game sometimes, there is so much advice out there, some more helpful than others! I hate the idea of him being hungry but also know I have to limit his food because he would gorge himself until he popped otherwise!
He is still a bit footy at the minute. He has pads on his feet but once those are off and he is sound again he will start being lunged/ridden every day and also have a little bit of turnout with a muzzle. It's so difficult ensuring he has a good quality of life whilst trying to ensure his life is extended as long as possible! 
Sugar free polos will be his new treats from now on!


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## dilbert (28 January 2012)

fast fibre is good for adding supplements in, I like Hilton herbs metabolyte gold. You could consider getting your hay and or grass analysed and supplementing accordingly - I used forage plus for this.

I was feeding my cob 2% of his weight last year in soaked hay and straw and he lost far too much weight too quickly so keep a careful eye on how he's doing. I like the Timothy horse hage and now feed Timothy hay rather than rye grass.

good luck, you'll get there eventually


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## BabyA (28 January 2012)

I'm having the same problem with my little welsh section a. I soak hay and he is fed a handful of the Dodson & Horrel happy hoof. My vet prescribed metaformin to try and control it. It's taken 7 weeks for my pony to become very nearly sound so it's a long process. We've just upped the metaformin and lowered the dose of bute. I to have looked for suitable supplements to add in just incase of vitamin deficiencies and it's a job to know what to use. The is someone called Jackie Taylor, if you google her they sell different feeds. I have emailed her but not had a reply yet. 
Is speedy beet low sugar or no sugar? 
Sounds like you are doing everything right but it takes time and your fighting a viscous circle not being able to exercise due to your pony being lame. 
My ponies first blood test was 42 which is not that high, hopefully you'll get your results and be able to get on top of it quickly!


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## Dab (28 January 2012)

Sorry dont know if anyone has mentioned it yet as i havent read all of the posts but 'cinammon' has really helped my EMS Shetland, who also had low grade lami.

You can buy it on ebay, several companies sell for equines and they give recommended doses.


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## bubbilygum (29 January 2012)

Thank you for all the replies! I'm going to buy a scale tomorrow and some supplements! I'm feeling a lot better about it all now, I was getting a bit worried that he would never lead a proper horsey life again but you guys all seem to be doing a great job for your horses, made me feel more confident about my boy!


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## Hen (29 January 2012)

I'd agree about the forage analysis and make soaked hay the base - I'm just switching from Saracen Stamm30 to Saracen Shape Up and Slim Chaff for low sugar/starch feeding; my mare has lost 35kg very easily and is now looking great on the Stamm30 diet but the new one should provide more fibre and magnesium.


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## brucea (29 January 2012)

Equimins advance meta balance (contact them, it's not on the web) is good - or pro-feet from Ros and Mel at pro-earth.

Make sure you are giving adequate magnesium - it will help to shift crest and fat pads over time. I use the pharm grade MgO

Stick with things like fast fibre, straw chaff, soaked hay. Don;t be tempted by any other feeds that may be "Laminitis XXXX" labelled.

Try to maybe mix clean straw through his hay to bulk it out, or use fast fibre and plain straw chaff twice a day to fill him up.

Pure do a plain oat straw chaff - I get it from Norvite in big bales the size of the large shavings bales. 

I have 2 lamintics, both sound, both living out on restricted ground at the moment (both were in work today, out on varied ground, mostly rough, for an hour and a half). I understand how hard it is to manage this. 

We also have a wonderful South African vet who has said that she wants to see ribs on horses - she thinks all the horses here are overweight, even the ones that are said to be "skinny". She's right - we've been getting one of ours down by 30Kg and he is a lot healthier for that weight loss.


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## bubbilygum (30 January 2012)

Just drawing Tosh up a new diet plan, currently looking like this:

6kg hay, soaked, divided into two 3kg double Haynets, one for the day, another for the night.
1kg fast fibre, 500g morning, 500g evening
500g Hifi lite, 250g morning, 250g evening
A broad spectrum supplement
Magnesium oxide

Hopefully this will be enough to keep him ticking over whilst keeping the weight off! Does this sound about right? I've never worried too much about his food before... A handful of chaff seems to suit him but I think he could do with more fibre!


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## BlackVelvet (30 January 2012)

Dab said:



			Sorry dont know if anyone has mentioned it yet as i havent read all of the posts but 'cinammon' has really helped my EMS Shetland, who also had low grade lami.

You can buy it on ebay, several companies sell for equines and they give recommended doses.
		
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I feed my EMS fatty cinnamon powder, i havnt seen a massive difference in weight loss but I have heard good things about its benefit on lowering blood sugar, 

When you get the bloodtests back the vet may put him on metformin tablets to help out whilst on boxrest.

Best advice is exercise (once hes sound of course!) Mine is ridden 6x a week and is out in a starvation paddock as well as going on the walker daily. Mainly as im desperate for him to drop weight without having to completely starve him. 

Hope things continue to improve, x


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## bubbilygum (30 January 2012)

BlackVelvet said:



			I feed my EMS fatty cinnamon powder, i havnt seen a massive difference in weight loss but I have heard good things about its benefit on lowering blood sugar
		
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I've read various things about cinnamon, some seem to have more success than others with it, and some horses don't do well with it at all. I guess it's like almost everything surrounding EMS, it all seems to be anecdotal evidence and varies a lot between horses! I'm going to call my farrier today and see of Tosh can be turned out in the school for an hour or so a day for a wander. He seems mostly sound now (still a bit footy when turning but fine in a straight line) and if he can get a bit of exercise I'm sure it would do him some good.


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## brucea (30 January 2012)

bubbilygum said:



			Just drawing Tosh up a new diet plan, currently looking like this:

6kg hay, soaked, divided into two 3kg double Haynets, one for the day, another for the night.
1kg fast fibre, 500g morning, 500g evening
500g Hifi lite, 250g morning, 250g evening
A broad spectrum supplement
Magnesium oxide

Hopefully this will be enough to keep him ticking over whilst keeping the weight off! Does this sound about right? I've never worried too much about his food before... A handful of chaff seems to suit him but I think he could do with more fibre!
		
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Think about dumping the HiFi lite - they really don't need alfalfa. Swap it for a pure straw chaff.


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## Dab (30 January 2012)

My EMS shettie had low grade lami last winter and into the spring and walking was an effort. I was already feeding him MagOx (heavy) but this made not a jot of difference. 2 weeks on the cinammon and he was literally leaping around the field, he is not mad keen on eating it so we have to be crafty. He is turned out 24/7 in a muzzle and shares a grass field with my TB. For mine this works well are he gets a lot of exercise when the TB decides that he must play at being a 'sheep dog' and herd the shettie. Personnaly i found this works better for the wee man rather than being in a starvation paddock.
Other than the cinammon, he gets no other supplements, just a very small handful of chaff and what he can get through the muzzle. 
Oh yes and he received a blanket clip in the autumn to help with weight loss, i.e. needs to use energy to keep warm!


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## bubbilygum (31 January 2012)

I just spoke to my vet, and his blood tests results came back as no cushings (levels below 47 considered normal and he is at 45) and only slightly elevated insulin resistance (should be below 20, he's 22.7) so the vet doesn't want to give him any medication for now, as he has improved dramatically and there isn't any indication that it would help anyway. I'm going to keep treating him as if he has EMS though as what I am doing seems to be working and I don't want him to go back downhill again. We're going to test him again in a month's time, and lower his bute down to one a day rather than two... That said bute seems to make no difference to him at all, at one point his was on three a day because he was absolutely crippled, didn't improve for having the bute at all. So, as it stands now, he doesn't have Cushings, his IR levels are only slightly above normal, his X-rays showed very slight horizontal rotation but nothing too alarming, and he is happily munching on his limited food rations in his shavings stable with pads on his feet! Unfortunately box rest will be for another month at least but hopefully by that time he will be sound, off the bute and pad free! He doesn't seem to mind box rest anyway, he isn't overly fond of other horses (aka food rivals!) and he has a nice big box so seems happy enough. I'm also going to start a photo diary of him so I can judge his weight better... But tricky when I see him every day to judge it by eye and using a weight tape won't help too much as he needs to lose it from his neck and bum more than his tummy! 
Thank you for all your help, it's really useful to hear how everyone manages their horses, most people I know have thoroughbreds they have to feed loads to and I often feel guilty giving Tosh such tiny portions!


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## BabyA (31 January 2012)

I've been sent a chart of safe foods by Jackie A Taylor, after assuming my D&H safe and sound feed would be ideal it turns out to be 12% as opposed to Spillers happy hoof @ 8.5%!  If I can work out how to attach the list I will as I'm really suprised about the feeds you can use and those to be avoided!


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## Herts05 (3 February 2012)

Just drawing Tosh up a new diet plan, currently looking like this:

6kg hay, soaked, divided into two 3kg double Haynets, one for the day, another for the night.
1kg fast fibre, 500g morning, 500g evening
500g Hifi lite, 250g morning, 250g evening
A broad spectrum supplement
Magnesium oxide

Hopefully this will be enough to keep him ticking over whilst keeping the weight off! Does this sound about right? I've never worried too much about his food before... A handful of chaff seems to suit him but I think he could do with more fibre!

Tip from an RVC lecture I went to this week is to split the hay down into smaller portions in double haynets and then hang them around the stable. This encourages the horse to walk around a little. I would agree with the previous poster who said to drop the Hifi lite. All your horse needs is a little fibre in which you can give him multivitamins. Don't give a feed balancer as this is the equine equivalent of a protein feed. They also said that there was no proof that magnesium actually did any good, but there is no harm in giving it. 

The other interesting fact I learned that when horses are prescribed Metformin, only 7% has been found to actually enter the horse's body, the other 93% ends up on the stable floor!

Tracey Hammond from Dengie also spoke at the lecture and seemed to have some sensible feeding advice for laminitics and horses suffering from EMS

Lastly, please ensure that your vet and your farrier discuss the care of your horse during this time so that they can each advise you on what is best with the full knowledge of what the other has said
Good luck with your horse and hope he is soon on the mend


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## bubbilygum (3 February 2012)

Hi all! I've ditched the Hifi bar a small handful in his night feed, mostly just to give him something to chew on as the fast fibre is quite mushy. I'm giving him a total of 3 mugfuls of fast fibre, (two for breakfast, one for dinner) and each mugful requires two mugs of water, so I am guessing that he is having 1.5kg of it per day (mug is 200ml) plus two double netted haynets. I am off to Countrywide this weekend (10% off everything!) to get a new hay soaking bin (mine split this morning... Stupid thing) and some shavings so will get some more haynets too so he can wander a bit. I've discussed what I've been doing with my farrier and my vet and they agree with what I'm doing and also agree (unfortunately for Tosh) that he has another month of box rest at least. The farrier was referred to me by the vet and they have been discussing his treatment and also check in with me every so often! He is down to one sachet of bute a day now and doing fine, so will wean him down to half a sachet per day from the 11th and hopefully he will be on none at all by the 20th! Still haven't got any MagOx mostly because my local feed merchant didn't sell it and when I looked into it further I found exactly what you said... That there is no proof it does anything anyway. I might get some if his weight loss slows but he seems to be slimming down at a nice rate at the minute and also seems much more sound so there doesn't seem to be much point using MagOx yet!


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## Herts05 (3 February 2012)

Bubbligum - sounds like you have been busy today. Hope all goes well for your pony from now on and that he is soon out and about.


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## bubbilygum (3 February 2012)

Herts05 said:



			Bubbligum - sounds like you have been busy today. Hope all goes well for your pony from now on and that he is soon out and about.
		
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Thanks, I really hope he is out again soon too! He is taking box rest in his stride, bless him, but its no way for a horse to be . He's a good boy though, and hopefully this will pay off in the long run!


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## bakedpotato (13 December 2015)

I took a lot of weight off my very good doer pony by double soaking hay, HiFi molasses free (lower sugar and starch than Lite) Lucie stalks and Pura Beet. I gave her Top spec lite as she is very lazy and I wanted her to exercise and didnt know what else was being removed by soaking.

She had a mild bout of colic and became very thin and at this time had a blood test and had high insulin levels. Still had a large neck.

Put her on Metformin and increased the quantity of food but still soaked hay and insulin and sugar were normal. Took her off Metformin

Now have stopped soaking and now give her partly usual livery hay and Timothy Horsehage (low sugar) as I realised soaking was taking a very long time and I would be better increasing her exercise by this time.

Obviously no foot problems


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## Micky (13 December 2015)

Have a look at the laminitis site, they have a forum with a feed guideline of recommended feeds, weights etc for ems ponies/horses plus lots of other very good fact based info


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