# Never thought I’d be writing this :(



## Keira 8888 (11 July 2020)

Hi guys,

Very hard day today.

Prince reared up almost vertically on our way to the sand school and I could feel him starting to lose balance so I threw myself off.

My YO has been doing some work with him over the last few weeks as he had become incredibly nappy in the field. I could only get him to leave if someone walked closer behind clapping their hands. I decided to pay my YO to ride him every day as he needed regular work and it was very difficult for me to do this myself as I have my 6 year old and 9 year old with me during lockdown. The YO (very experienced and well respected chap in the village) said that he was a real bugger to get out of the yard. Then a few days ago he reared on the road and refused to move - my YO eventually got him going and said that he relaxed after a while and the second half of the ride was very easy. He is a different horse coming back than he is leaving.

Since then my YO has been lunging him to try and build trust and communication on the ground. This morning we agreed that I would come and ride him in the school and my YO was going to be there to assist.

Everything went beautifully at first, he left the field without too much of a battle and happily picked his feet up for me to pick out. Stood calmly to be groomed and tacked up. It was all going so so well. Then I mounted in the yard and walked him down to the school - after a few steps he did two little bucks and then when I tried to gentle push him on he reared right up - all I could see was blue sky. My YO said I was a hairs breath from him coming over backwards.

I am too scared to try again as he has reared several times now. He has had his teeth checked, his back checked, a recent physical examination from the vet in which he Was given the all clear. ( this wasn’t a FULL vetting though, he just did some physical examinations eg legs, heart, ears, eyes.

My YO is now refusing to ride him again which I totally understand. He says he is a dangerous horse and something very bad will happen soon if we persist.

Prince is an affectionate, humble gentleman in the field. It’s immy when he is asked to do any kind of work that he digs his heels in.

I am inexperienced. I have a 9 year old horse mad daughter who is heartbroken. I have contacted the lady I bought him from and she said she was shocked and had never done this for her.

I specially said that I needed a sensible calm older horse who would happily hack alone and in the advert (and by what’s app) the seller confirmed that Prince was all of these things.

Several people I have shown videos of Prince to (before I bought him) now say that he wasn’t tracking up and seemed very sluggish in the hind quarters. I wonder whether he may have been sedated in some way.

Obviously I should have had a blood test done before I bought him to check for any doping. A big lesson learnt here. And I 100% blame no one but myself.

What I now need to decide is what is best for Prince. I can work through pretty much anything but I think near vertical rearing (more than once) is just a step too far.

I don’t have the experience to give him what he needs.

I was thinking of advertising him as free to a very knowledgable experienced and KIND home but obviously being completely honest about his napping and rearing. He also has unexplained hives at the moment which I’m trying to investigate with the vet.

I just completely lost. Completely heartbroken. Ashamed of how I can’t help him as I am just too scared.

His saddle fits perfectly. His teeth are fantastic. All I can think is could he have ulcers or some health problem that no one has picked up on?

Thanks so much for reading all this guys.

Kx


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## Red-1 (11 July 2020)

I am so sorry you have this situation. If it helps, you are not alone, this has happened to many people.

Lots of horses can be settled in one home but be different in another.

For what it's worth I wouldn't get on again, he is not what you want.

You do need to do right, whatever that ends up looking like. He could go to a professional yard for assessment. This is what I would do in your situation. They can check and double check everything, advise about vet investigations, and give him his best chance of being 'good'. If they get him going well, then they could advise on sale options, or even that he did what he did because of XXX. Many horses have come round from new horse nappyness, some do not.

He could be put to sleep, which is awful but at least you know that he didn't hurt anyone. I would personally not do that without exploring option 1, and vet investigations, but I don't think it would be wrong either. What I would guard against is selling to all-comers cheaply, as then they tend to be on a downward spiral and treated harshly to make a quick buck.


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## Frumpoon (11 July 2020)

Where are you, what is he and what kind of home do you want for him. PM me if you prefer x


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## Horses_Rule (11 July 2020)

Do NOT feel ashamed of being scared!! I would be more concerned if you weren’t! Is he insured? Is it worth you having a full work up from your vet? Such an extreme reaction deserves some more investigation if you can. It sounds as though it is probably a pain reaction to something? Maybe back related? I really feel for you what an awful situation


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## Goldenstar (11 July 2020)

What checks has the vet done ?


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## Bradsmum (11 July 2020)

As the previous owner has stated this is unusual behaviour for him, has he had any change in tack, feed or management since his last home. How long have you had him, has he had time to settle to any changes made. I wouldn't get on him right now either but if as you say he is a gentleman in the field there must be something niggling him


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## Jayzee (11 July 2020)

Sorry to hear this, I would not be getting back on if he's likely to go up again! How long ago did you buy him?


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## Mule (11 July 2020)

I'd be leaning toward a medical problem as it's out of character. Sounds very scary


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## HBB (11 July 2020)

Keira 8888 said:



			I just completely lost. Completely heartbroken. Ashamed of how I can’t help him as I am just too scared.
		
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Please don't feel ashamed, it's called self preservation, I wouldn't be getting on either.


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## ester (11 July 2020)

full veterinary work up required.

Please don’t offer the horse as free to good home, people can be very believable and sell them on so at best they do the rounds of the bin end dealers.


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## doodle (11 July 2020)

Don’t get on. But get the vet to do a full work up as its sounds like there is something wrong. After that then decisions can be made.


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## Archangel (11 July 2020)

My own feeling is that the ones that go straight up so high they teeter or go over are at the end of their tether - pain/fear/pressure.  

A full vet work up would be my first port of call (the one that went over with me was pain related).


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## Bellaboo18 (11 July 2020)

As I understand it you've had this horse a month?

That's really no time for a horse to settle so could be potential ulcers from the move or change in management. 

I'd get a vet workup and if nothing comes from that send on sales livery stating all the facts. 

I understand you not wanting to get back on and agree that you shouldn't. 

I definitely wouldn't give away for free, that's how horses spend their lives being passed around from person to person with noone ever finding out what the issue is. 

I also wouldn't PTS after such a short time with doing no investigations. 

It's hard to find a horse suitable as a first horse. 

Have you spoken to the previous owner, would they have him back?


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## misst (11 July 2020)

Please don't give him free to anyone unless you investigate them very very thoroughly. There are people out there who will ride a horse - even one this extreme - through the pain (which is probably what is causing this). If you cannot afford to investigate fully - and be prepared for no definitive answer - then PTS is safest for everyone and kindest for him. I am so sorry you are in this situation it's awful.


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## Wishfilly (11 July 2020)

So sorry to hear this- it's really unfair when it's clear from your posts how much you love him. 

I can understand the impulse to give him away free to a good home, but as others have said, this is unlikely to lead to a good outcome for the horse and there is also the chance he may seriously injure someone.

What do you know about the people you bought him from? If they are dealers then you have a lot of legal rights around this. If they are private sellers, things get more tricky, but it may be worth trying to get them to take the horse back anyway, especially if they claim he never did anything like this with them. This is a big reaction for a horse to be having so quickly, so I would be a bit sceptical about what they are saying and honestly a decent owner would probably offer to have the horse back.

The other option is to start doing veterinary investigations- but expect this to be a long and expensive road. Is he insured? I would start looking at kissing spines and ulcers but there are all sorts of things that can cause a horse pain and therefore this sort of reaction. 

Your YO sounds pretty sensible, and if he is saying he is unwilling to get on, I strongly suggest you don't either! I'd also be really wary of having any other professionals get on- if you do go down this route, I'd get them to talk to your YO first.


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## ycbm (11 July 2020)

Sympathies, this is a nightmare scenario with a new horse 

Personally,  I would want to get to the bottom of the hives because they are a new thing and with the timing  it's entirely possible that whatever has caused the hives is causing the behaviour. 

.


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## fredflop (11 July 2020)

As far as I see... two options, full vet work up or PTS.

If you have a limited budget for a work up I’d get him checked for kissing spines or ulcers.


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## Wishfilly (11 July 2020)

Do you still have a copy of the advert? And how soon did he display difficult behaviour out hacking after you bought him?


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## Sugarplum Furry (11 July 2020)

It does sound like a pain related issue and  full vet work up sounds like it will give you a clearer picture. 

However, here's my story for what it's worth. I bought a 4 year old arab x welsh mare, 14.2, as a share between my daughter and myself. I tried her out at the sellers' place, she was strong but good as gold. Did the deal, brought her home. The first week she was an angel. The second week she started napping, and then rearing, like seriously rearing, as you describe, vertical, terrifying. I had all the checks done, saddle, teeth, vet check, back person, nothing seemed amiss, they said ride her through it. Argh. But I did and she kept doing it. 6 weeks later I tacked her up for an afternoon hack, asked her to walk on and up she went, up and up and up OMG she's going over backwards. I managed to throw myself off sideways as we fell and we both came down hard on a gravel track.  I remember we both lay there looking at each other for a minute, sore and stunned until we staggered to our feet, we both had painful gravel injuries. I untacked her, treated sher wounds and limped home to treat mine. And she NEVER did it again in all the years we had her, she turned out to be the most gorgeously fun pony ever, fast, opnionated, an absolute character but very sweet, she passed away aged 23 and she was the pony of a lifetime. Don't give up hope!


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## mossycup (11 July 2020)

Yes, what does the advert say? If it's been less than 30 days, do you want to send him back and pursue a refund? A new horse should be fun, not the cause of heartache in the space of 4 weeks


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## splashgirl45 (11 July 2020)

please dont offer him for free, someone could dope him up and sell him on and someone (and him) could be seriously hurt.  i understand how you feel and i would see if the previous owner will take him back or you will need to have a complete work up with a good horse vet or at a vet hospital because he could be in pain and until you have ruled pain out nothing can be done..


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## LadyGascoyne (11 July 2020)

I am so sorry to hear about the rearing- it really is a very scary thing so please don’t feel bad for deciding not to get on again.

It would be good to have some more details about him. There is a real wealth of experience on the forum and a cue in the wider context might flag something to someone that you may not have thought of immediately.

What breed, height and age is he?

What kind of work did he do in his previous home?

Have you changed what he is fed or how much turnout he gets?

Have you changed his tack at all? And when you tried him, was he in this tack?

When he was vetted, did you use your own vet or the sellers vet?

Are you significantly different as a rider to his previous rider? Are you much lighter or heavier, was he previously ridden by a child or an adult etc?

Do you know how long he was in his previous home?


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## SO1 (11 July 2020)

Anyway you could take the horse back to the person you bought it from and see how it reacts in that environment with the old owner riding.


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## Bellaboo18 (11 July 2020)

SO1 said:



			Anyway you could take the horse back to the person you bought it from and see how it reacts in that environment with the old owner riding.
		
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I *think* OP purchased the horse unseen from ireland(?)


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## Amymay (11 July 2020)

If old owner won’t take him back, please, please, please do not pass him on.  I would agree with a full veterinary work up. But if if it turns out he’s un-rideable  your only option is to have him destroyed.


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## Trouper (11 July 2020)

Firstly - please don't get back on him or let anyone else do so.  I am sure you won't
Secondly - get a full vet assessment on him.  My preference is always someone like Tom Beech (The Osteopathic Vet) or someone similar who takes a holistic view of the whole horse.
Whatever you find - decide (with advice) if it is treatable. On a simple level some horses react to a change of bacteria in the soil when they move homes so that could account for the hives.
If his problems are not treatable -- please don't pass him on. It is kinder and safer to everyone - and him -  to pts.
Lastly - don't blame yourself for any of this.  All any of us can do is to do the best for the horse we have in front of us.


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## Pearlsasinger (11 July 2020)

Is this the horse that has just changed feed from alfalfa to grassnuts?  

Let me tell you about my horse - the one who was fed alfalfa as she couldn't eat anything else.  She was bought as a 4 yr old and over the years her behaviour got worse and worse until she became almost unhandle-able, it took 2 people wearing hats to bring her in, just across a field.  At first she was an easy, if green ride but got to be so unpredictable that I stopped riding her on the road, then eventually stopped riding her altogether but not until she had bucked me off in a side-saddle lesson, going up so high that those on the ground could see the streetlights under her girth.  She was very reactive to noise, got hives/heatlumps and seemed to physically see things differently from other horses.  She was 12 and had been retired for a few years when we changed her diet, for other reasons and realised that her food and been causing her problems all along - she must have had a dreadful headache.  We never fed her cereals again and her behaviour went back to being her old sweet self.

If you hadn't just got him, I would give your horse a least a couple of weeks off work and then very carefully try going back to basics, leaning over, sitting on and so on but because you do have rights if you bought him from a dealer, I think you need to speak to the dealer about your options.


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## SO1 (11 July 2020)

Oh dear that was a big risk.

I suppose the horse could have got injured in transit.



Bellaboo18 said:



			I *think* OP purchased the horse unseen from ireland(?)
		
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## ycbm (11 July 2020)

Keira you posted this exactly a week ago, it really seems precipitous to give up on this horse.  I really think you need to get to the bottom of the hives and then review where you are at.  

I have a horse who rears in hand if gets any alfalfa.  He put a hole right through my skull cap before I realised what was causing it.  



Keira 8888 said:



			I just wanted to have a little ramble - I had  SUCH a successful day today with Prince. Took him out for a hack on our very own for the first time ever (really narrow country lanes so I was a little nervous) and it went so well. I was honestly quite terrified as I put my foot in the stirrup but I pushed through it and tried to relax and keep calm and it really worked! We bumped into everything that I really didn’t want to see!!! Random new forest ponies roaming the lanes, cars that drive too fast and a bloody enormous predatory hornet that seemed intent on trying to hitch a ride in my thigh! But we stayed calm and I am SO SO happy!

sorry for rambling post, you guys are the only ones who will understand how happy
I am!!!

My 9 year old horse mad daughter also had a ride and it was such a special day! Am finally beginning to find my feet
		
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.


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## SO1 (11 July 2020)

Sounds like the OP might be based in the New Forest? Could it be crab flies are bothering him as he would not be exposed to them in Ireland and I understand they can be really irritating to horses that are not used to them.


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## LadyGascoyne (11 July 2020)

LadyGascoyne said:



			I am so sorry to hear about the rearing- it really is a very scary thing so please don’t feel bad for deciding not to get on again.

It would be good to have some more details about him. There is a real wealth of experience on the forum and a cue in the wider context might flag something to someone that you may not have thought of immediately.

What breed, height and age is he?

What kind of work did he do in his previous home?

Have you changed what he is fed or how much turnout he gets?

Have you changed his tack at all? And when you tried him, was he in this tack?

When he was vetted, did you use your own vet or the sellers vet?

Are you significantly different as a rider to his previous rider? Are you much lighter or heavier, was he previously ridden by a child or an adult etc?

Do you know how long he was in his previous home?
		
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OP, I have read some of your older threads now so can fill in some of the blanks here.

He’s OP’s first horse and is a 16.2hh, 16 year old from Ireland, and looks either to be a Thoroughbred or to have a lot of blood in him.

He seems to be suffering an allergy of some kind, possibly to feed and was on feed containing alfalfa, with a recent change of feed- within the last two weeks, I think. He is underweight.

I don’t think you mentioned what he had done in Ireland, OP, only that he would be slowing down?

OP has bought the same saddle but I’m not sure about bit and bridle. It doesn’t seem as though you tried him OP? I think you bought unseen?

It reads as though he wasn’t vetted in Ireland but you had a general check done when he arrived here.

OP is the same sort of measurements as his previous rider but possibly less experienced.

I couldn’t tell whether it was a dealer in Ireland, a short term home or someone who had had him for a while.


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## Antw23uk (11 July 2020)

Oh dear! Arent you the lady that made a post about losing your confidence bringing a horse in from the field or something? You are way out of your depth here and you need to find this horse a suitable home, you are scaring him, he is not suitable for you. I would likely air on the side of the previous owner who says he's never done anything like this before! 

Sorry to sound harsh but this kind of post is nothing new sadly and keeps happening time and again and its always the previous owner that's blamed and the poor horse left out in the proverbial cold! This is such a horrible situation and im sorry again if my post sounds harsh. Agree with others you should not be getting on him again, he needs to go back or find a suitable home that understands him. Good luck.


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## Keira 8888 (11 July 2020)

Thank you so much everyone for all your replies - this forum is absolutely incredible, I actually would be lost without you all now. My husband is livid and I can’t talk to him.

So I got in touch with the past owner this afternoon and at first she was very defensive. Said I must have “done” something to him as he had never acted like this before. I kept my messages very civil and just said - I’m so so confused. Please can you give me the details of his past owner. And this request was repeatedly ignored. I then remembered that my vet had found two microchips when he first assessed Prince and he had urged me to contact the authorities to make sure that Prince had a genuine passport. Stupidly I didn’t do this as I was already head over heels for him and thought - who cares 🤷‍♀️ I love him and why does it matter if he has two microchips??! Well.... when I mentioned that to the past owner her whole demeanor changed - she went back to being lovely and concerned - offered a full refund and said she had a lorry in England right now to pick him up. I says thanks but no thanks - give me the full refund and then I will allow you to collect him. I have eight (very horsey) witnesses ready to give a written statement about his rearing and dangerous behaviour. She then said her boss wanted video proof of his bad behaviour and I said no one is willing to get back on him!! It’s not fair on him!!! Or us!!
So I just called her and she says she will refund me the full money but wants a photo of the microchip on the passport.

My vet def made a note of the “second” microchip number but I can’t find it on the passport, it must be in his notes at the vet.

my husband doesn’t trust them (obviously!) and doesn’t understand why they would want a pic of the original passport if they only applied for it on 8th June. Literally days after I bought him.

We are inexperienced and terrified that they are going to somehow back out of the refund, to be honest all I care about is Prince. They say they are going to “bring him home” to Ireland so he doesn’t get PTS but the weird thing is, in the original advert, they said he had done hunting, eventing, and been at a riding school - but when I pushed to know more details about his past owner they said they had bought him at a dealer auction 2 months ago because they felt sorry for him because he was so thin!!

arghhhh!!!!
I feel so upset and angry! This poor poor horse! And here I am giving up on him, it’s like a nightmare


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## Pearlsasinger (11 July 2020)

It is very obvious that some posters really don't have a clue how much effect some feeds can have on some horses!  How long is it, OP, since you changed the feed.



ETA, sorry OP, we cross-posted.  In order to remain safe it probably is best if you get your refund and return the horse because you never know what else the horse will react to but if he was mine, I would give him a month off the alfalfa before making any decisions.


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## Antw23uk (11 July 2020)

Keira 8888 said:



			Thank you so much everyone for all your replies - this forum is absolutely incredible, I actually would be lost without you all now. My husband is livid and I can’t talk to him.

So I got in touch with the past owner this afternoon and at first she was very defensive. Said I must have “done” something to him as he had never acted like this before. I kept my messages very civil and just said - I’m so so confused. Please can you give me the details of his past owner. And this request was repeatedly ignored. I then remembered that my vet had found two microchips when he first assessed Prince and he had urged me to contact the authorities to make sure that Prince had a genuine passport. Stupidly I didn’t do this as I was already head over heels for him and thought - who cares 🤷‍♀️ I love him and why does it matter if he has two microchips??! Well.... when I mentioned that to the past owner her whole demeanor changed - she went back to being lovely and concerned - offered a full refund and said she had a lorry in England right now to pick him up. I says thanks but no thanks - give me the full refund and then I will allow you to collect him. I have eight (very horsey) witnesses ready to give a written statement about his rearing and dangerous behaviour. She then said her boss wanted video proof of his bad behaviour and I said no one is willing to get back on him!! It’s not fair on him!!! Or us!!
So I just called her and she says she will refund me the full money but wants a photo of the microchip on the passport.

My vet def made a note of the “second” microchip number but I can’t find it on the passport, it must be in his notes at the vet.

my husband doesn’t trust them (obviously!) and doesn’t understand why they would want a pic of the original passport if they only applied for it on 8th June. Literally days after I bought him.

We are inexperienced and terrified that they are going to somehow back out of the refund, to be honest all I care about is Prince. They say they are going to “bring him home” to Ireland so he doesn’t get PTS but the weird thing is, in the original advert, they said he had done hunting, eventing, and been at a riding school - but when I pushed to know more details about his past owner they said they had bought him at a dealer auction 2 months ago because they felt sorry for him because he was so thin!!

arghhhh!!!!
I feel so upset and angry! This poor poor horse! And here I am giving up on him, it’s like a nightmare
		
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You need to take the refund and have them pick him up ASAP. They must be so upset and worried, I know i would be if i had sold a horse to this situation.


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## splashgirl45 (11 July 2020)

whatever it was ....buying unseen when you are not experienced is not a good idea and a 16.2 tb type is not a first horse IMO especially if you have not tried it at its home.   this happens so often, i wish people who are buying their first horse would read these threads and learn to be very careful....i am now an oldie and have been owned horses for over 50 years.  if i came into some money i would want to buy another but would always go and try it at least twice and would take my friend who is a trainer to confirm that i was a good fit.......

just read op's latest post and it sounds like she has been treated badly by the seller and something sounds very fishy..


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## scats (11 July 2020)

OP, has this rearing behaviour just started?  I’m a bit confused about timelines.  How long have you had him and when did the rearing start?


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## Red-1 (11 July 2020)

Keira 8888 said:



			Thank you so much everyone for all your replies - this forum is absolutely incredible, I actually would be lost without you all now. My husband is livid and I can’t talk to him.

So I got in touch with the past owner this afternoon and at first she was very defensive. Said I must have “done” something to him as he had never acted like this before. I kept my messages very civil and just said - I’m so so confused. Please can you give me the details of his past owner. And this request was repeatedly ignored. I then remembered that my vet had found two microchips when he first assessed Prince and he had urged me to contact the authorities to make sure that Prince had a genuine passport. Stupidly I didn’t do this as I was already head over heels for him and thought - who cares 🤷‍♀️ I love him and why does it matter if he has two microchips??! Well.... when I mentioned that to the past owner her whole demeanor changed - she went back to being lovely and concerned - offered a full refund and said she had a lorry in England right now to pick him up. I says thanks but no thanks - give me the full refund and then I will allow you to collect him. I have eight (very horsey) witnesses ready to give a written statement about his rearing and dangerous behaviour. She then said her boss wanted video proof of his bad behaviour and I said no one is willing to get back on him!! It’s not fair on him!!! Or us!!
So I just called her and she says she will refund me the full money but wants a photo of the microchip on the passport.

My vet def made a note of the “second” microchip number but I can’t find it on the passport, it must be in his notes at the vet.

my husband doesn’t trust them (obviously!) and doesn’t understand why they would want a pic of the original passport if they only applied for it on 8th June. Literally days after I bought him.

We are inexperienced and terrified that they are going to somehow back out of the refund, to be honest all I care about is Prince. They say they are going to “bring him home” to Ireland so he doesn’t get PTS but the weird thing is, in the original advert, they said he had done hunting, eventing, and been at a riding school - but when I pushed to know more details about his past owner they said they had bought him at a dealer auction 2 months ago because they felt sorry for him because he was so thin!!

arghhhh!!!!
I feel so upset and angry! This poor poor horse! And here I am giving up on him, it’s like a nightmare
		
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You are not giving up on him, he is simply not the horse that was described to you. 

If he is from a dealer, you do have rights. I am not sure how easy they are to enforce when the dealer is in Ireland. 

If she is saying she will refund then I would allow the refund. Heck, I would even allow a 25% reduction if it means you get money back and the horse picked up promptly! If the vet noted 2 different microchip numbers then yes, there should be a record. If not, the microchip number is still there, in his neck, so you could get it read again. I would ask on a local FB page for someone with a reader. 

The horse was not as described. They admit they told a wrong tale. I wold keep records and do everything in writing, on email or other electronic messaging that can be kept.


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## ihatework (11 July 2020)

It’s the poor horse caught up in the middle of all this.

You have got 2 options as far as I see it - work with the old owners for the refund and return. Sounds like they have realised they have been caught out.

Keep the horse, work him up with the vets, treat him and keep him.

Reading between the lines this poor horse has a dodgy history.
Please next time be sensible. Buy a horse in this country that has a verified history, assessed by an instructor as suitable for a novice and properly vetted.


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## Red-1 (11 July 2020)

Antw23uk said:



			You need to take the refund and have them pick him up ASAP. They must be so upset and worried, I know i would be if i had sold a horse to this situation.
		
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I think they will be upset and worried too, but not because they are worried about the horse. More that the horse has 2 microchips, a new replacement passport and they have been caught out telling one tale of history of the horse when it turns out they know nothing about his history and have only known him for 2 months. Yes, they are likely worried, because they have been caught out!

I agree OP has not made best decisions when buying, but she has done right by the horse since owning. Got help. Got the vet when the horse had hives.


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## Bellaboo18 (11 July 2020)

Get the refund and put him on the lorry asap.

You're not giving up on him, he's not in the right home with you.

Next time, don't buy unseen, try the horse at least twice, get it vetted and take some one experienced with you. Also up your budget! £2500 won't get you a sound first horse.

OR

Keep the horse, get a workup and find out where his pain is. Then be prepared to PTS.


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## splashgirl45 (11 July 2020)

this poor horse was sent to the sales in poor condition, dealer bought him 2 months ago  then ships him over to a novice owner!!!!!!  what a shitty thing to do to the horse and the OP.  there are some awful people in the horse world..its so sad....


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## Keira 8888 (11 July 2020)

Antw23uk said:



			Oh dear! Arent you the lady that made a post about losing your confidence bringing a horse in from the field or something? You are way out of your depth here and you need to find this horse a suitable home, you are scaring him, he is not suitable for you. I would likely air on the side of the previous owner who says he's never done anything like this before!

Sorry to sound harsh but this kind of post is nothing new sadly and keeps happening time and again and its always the previous owner that's blamed and the poor horse left out in the proverbial cold! This is such a horrible situation and im sorry again if my post sounds harsh. Agree with others you should not be getting on him again, he needs to go back or find a suitable home that understands him. Good luck.
		
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I really appreciate your reply.  I may lack in hands on experience but I have taken every step possible to involve professionals and take on expert advice. He is in full livery. I spent the first week or so just bonding with him in the field - exploring things together, never scaring him. I have never been rough with him. He has the best of everything. Inexperience may well be a weakness, but with the correct support (which I have had) it certainly hasn’t impacted Prince. He is a 16 yr old horse. He was meant to have been there and done it all. I would never have taken on a youngster. I honestly don’t think I could have done better as I have taken it slowly, thoughtfully and under instruction. I agree that he needs a more experienced home, but I promise you that I have never scared him x


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## Bellaboo18 (11 July 2020)

splashgirl45 said:



			this poor horse was sent to the sales in poor condition, dealer bought him 2 months ago  then ships him over to a novice owner!!!!!!  what a shitty thing to do to the horse and the OP.  there are some awful people in the horse world..its so sad....
		
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And the only thing that changes this chain of events is someone stepping up, finding the pain and doing the right thing by the horse which isn't the easy/cheap thing to do.


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## misst (11 July 2020)

Antw23uk said:



			You need to take the refund and have them pick him up ASAP. They must be so upset and worried, I know i would be if i had sold a horse to this situation.
		
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That's a bit strong.
That seems unlikely given they have changed their story and the OP would seem to have been scammed. She may be inexperienced but the horse was on livery with an experienced YO and she appears to have done her utmost to care for him. The only thing she has done "wrong" is to trust someone and buy a horse unseen. 
The worst thing is of course if the horse is returned the whole scenario will be repeated


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## splashgirl45 (11 July 2020)

Keira 8888 said:



			I really appreciate your reply.  I may lack in hands on experience but I have taken every step possible to involve professionals and take on expert advice. He is in full livery. I spent the first week or so just bonding with him in the field - exploring things together, never scaring him. I have never been rough with him. He has the best of everything. Inexperience may well be a weakness, but with the correct support (which I have had) it certainly hasn’t impacted Prince. He is a 16 yr old horse. He was meant to have been there and done it all. I would never have taken on a youngster. I honestly don’t think I could have done better as I have taken it slowly, thoughtfully and under instruction. I agree that he needs a more experienced home, but I promise you that I have never scared him x
		
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i appreciate that you have done everything possible but your mistake ( a big one) was buying unseen and believing everything the dealer said.  you now know that the dealer told you a bunch of lies.   i bet the dealer paid meat money for him and has made a nice profit...  it is very likely that the horse has always had problems being ridden and that you have not caused it apart from not being confident..  i feel sorry for both you and the horse as neither of you deserve this, but you need to get your money back so the horse will have to go back to them unfortunately,  and please be very careful next time you buy...try the horse a couple of times, take an experienced person with you and have the horse vetted by a vet the YOU choose and never use a vet suggested by the seller...


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## splashgirl45 (11 July 2020)

misst said:



			That's a bit strong.
That seems unlikely given they have changed their story and the OP would seem to have been scammed. She may be inexperienced but the horse was on livery with an experienced YO and she appears to have done her utmost to care for him. The only thing she has done "wrong" is to trust someone and buy a horse unseen.
The worst thing is of course if the horse is returned the whole scenario will be repeated
		
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thats the very sad thing,  i wouldnt think the OP can afford to not send him back...i am sure if money was no object she would keep him and find something else to ride, but this is the real world and not many of us could afford to do that..


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## Flame_ (11 July 2020)

Keira 8888 said:



			Hi guys,

 I have contacted the lady I bought him from and she said she was shocked and had never done this for her.

I specially said that I needed a sensible calm older horse who would happily hack alone and in the advert (and by what’s app) the seller confirmed that Prince was all of these things.
		
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"S/he's never done that before....."

99 times out of 100 its BS. Keep any written evidence of having been missold a horse. Are they local? Tell them you need them to come and give you some assistance or you'll be looking at returning the horse as not fit for purpose.

Rearing is very dangerous, your fear is completely rational. This is not a "man up, kick on" problem. You need to find the cause and quickly rectify it or prioritise your safety and return or put down the horse. People who buy cheap problem horses from people keen to secure the horses' future by selling cheaply to an experienced home are more often than not just out to make money and keep themselves in repeat business by selling the horse on to another you. These horses do circuits around lying unethical dealers.


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## stormox (11 July 2020)

Keira 8888 said:



			Thank you so much everyone for all your replies - this forum is absolutely incredible, I actually would be lost without you all now. My husband is livid and I can’t talk to him.

 to Ireland so he doesn’t get PTS but the weird thing is, in the original advert, they said he had done hunting, eventing, and been at a riding school - but when I pushed to know more details about his past owner they said they had bought him at a dealer auction 2 months ago because they felt sorry for him because he was so thin!!

arghhhh!!!!
I feel so upset and angry! This poor poor horse! And here I am giving up on him, it’s like a nightmare
		
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If you want you can pm me I am in Ireland and might be able to find something out.
However I dont understand about ' dealer auction' a couple of months ago- we started lockdown here in the middle of March, and all auctions etc were cancelled. And Ive never heard of a 'dealer auction'....


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## misst (11 July 2020)

splashgirl45 said:



			i appreciate that you have done everything possible but your mistake ( a big one) was buying unseen and believing everything the dealer said.  you now know that the dealer told you a bunch of lies.   i bet the dealer paid meat money for him and has made a nice profit...  it is very likely that the horse has always had problems being ridden and that you have not caused it apart from not being confident..  i feel sorry for both you and the horse as neither of you deserve this, but you need to get your money back so the horse will have to go back to them unfortunately,  and please be very careful next time you buy...try the horse a couple of times, take an experienced person with you and have the horse vetted by a vet the YOU choose and never use a vet suggested by the seller...
		
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This every time I'm afraid. Next time you will have learned from this and next time will be better if you follow the advice on here. Please ask someone you really trust to come with you and don't let anyone give you the "I have lots of other people interested" or any other sales talk. 
What a horrible experience for you but sadly it is more common than you might think.
There are relatively inexpensive "first horses" out there but if you want a safe fun first horse for mum/daughter share then you may need to up your budget or wait until the winter. 
Don't give up but no more buying unseen! It has been done by some of the very experienced people on here and even they are super careful and really know the pitfalls and one or two have been caught out over the years.


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## SO1 (11 July 2020)

I agree sounds like the person who sold it was dishonest. If they have only had it two months and got it from an auction it would be impossible to verify it would be suitable for a novice.  I expect what they hoped for was that the inexperienced owner would fall in love the horse and try and fix the issue or just keep it and retire it rather than send it back to them. 

If she has a lorry in this country to bring him back immediately I expect she is bringing horses over on a regular basis he may end up getting passed on to one her contacts her to try and sell on.


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## Keira 8888 (11 July 2020)

splashgirl45 said:



			i appreciate that you have done everything possible but your mistake ( a big one) was buying unseen and believing everything the dealer said.  you now know that the dealer told you a bunch of lies.   i bet the dealer paid meat money for him and has made a nice profit...  it is very likely that the horse has always had problems being ridden and that you have not caused it apart from not being confident..  i feel sorry for both you and the horse as neither of you deserve this, but you need to get your money back so the horse will have to go back to them unfortunately,  and please be very careful next time you buy...try the horse a couple of times, take an experienced person with you and have the horse vetted by a vet the YOU choose and never use a vet suggested by the seller...
		
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yes you are so right. I have learnt so much from this  SO much, poor Prince. I am ashamed of myself


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## milliepops (11 July 2020)

Keira 8888 said:



			yes you are so right. I have learnt so much from this  SO much, poor Prince. I am ashamed of myself
		
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There's no point in beating yourself up, what's done is done.  I would echo what others have said, in your shoes i would accept the refund and chalk this one up to experience.  You will be better prepared when you want to look for a  new horse.  In an ideal world it would be nice to try and fix him but realistically this could be a long and complex journey and he does not appear to be the right horse for you anyway.  If you end up getting hurt you'll feel worse than you do now x


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## splashgirl45 (11 July 2020)

dont beat yourself up, you havent done anything with the intent of misleading someone,  you made a mistake and you have tried your best for the horse,    hope you can soon get this sorted out...


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## Keira 8888 (11 July 2020)

misst said:



			This every time I'm afraid. Next time you will have learned from this and next time will be better if you follow the advice on here. Please ask someone you really trust to come with you and don't let anyone give you the "I have lots of other people interested" or any other sales talk.
What a horrible experience for you but sadly it is more common than you might think.
There are relatively inexpensive "first horses" out there but if you want a safe fun first horse for mum/daughter share then you may need to up your budget or wait until the winter.
Don't give up but no more buying unseen! It has been done by some of the very experienced people on here and even they are super careful and really know the pitfalls and one or two have been caught out over the years.
		
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Oh boy you are right - so right. I completely see this now. This poor horse - I wish I could throw money at the problem and “save” him. But I can’t. I have to put my daughter first. And live with the fact that really - quite honestly - I have failed this horse


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## misst (11 July 2020)

Don't be ashamed you have done nothing wrong except trust someone. If it hadn't happened to you it would have happened to another trusting person - and has probably happened a few times before with this horse. 
He probably has multiple problems and you have not caused them.
Horse owning is a wonderful wonderful thing but it is also a moneypit and heartbreaking sometimes. So sorry this has been your introduction to owning x


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## misst (11 July 2020)

Keira 8888 said:



			Oh boy you are right - so right. I completely see this now. This poor horse - I wish I could throw money at the problem and “save” him. But I can’t. I have to put my daughter first. And live with the fact that really - quite honestly - I have failed this horse
		
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No the people who sold him failed him and you.


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## The Fuzzy Furry (11 July 2020)

I'd be checking out both chips, to ensure the horse isnt a loss of use, or 'missing' (loaned and sold on, or stolen)


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## MiniMilton (11 July 2020)

I'm so sorry this has happened. I wouldn't wish this situation on anyone. 

Hind sight is wonderful and all the rest, but I just have to say this, as so many are getting caught out buying from Ireland... 
There are plenty of dodgy dealers in Ireland who specialise in buying unsafe or unsound horses and selling on to the UK at a massive profit.

UK buyers are buying cheap horses in Ireland thinking they are getting a bargain, but good horses are not cheap in Ireland. 
There are lots of very reputable dealers in Ireland but their horses are not cheap.

OP if the horse is otherwise very nice to be around I would think it is something medical like Kissing Spines. I would use the double microchip situation to your advantage and try to get the seller to refund and collect. If the seller won't I would mention in a friendly manner that perhaps you should investigate the duplicate microchips with the Department of Agriculture to see can you get further info on his history. Hopefully put the sh1ts up the seller that they are about to be caught out on whatever dodgy situation they created.


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## Flame_ (11 July 2020)

You can't buy a first horse based on what an advert says. Even truthful adverts omit all sorts. Approach horse buying with your strongest cynical head on, on a quest to find out what's wrong with it and whether it's something you can work with, before you part with your cash. There is a flaw in all of them but they're all equine saints in the ads!


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## Keira 8888 (11 July 2020)

misst said:



			This every time I'm afraid. Next time you will have learned from this and next time will be better if you follow the advice on here. Please ask someone you really trust to come with you and don't let anyone give you the "I have lots of other people interested" or any other sales talk.
What a horrible experience for you but sadly it is more common than you might think.
There are relatively inexpensive "first horses" out there but if you want a safe fun first horse for mum/daughter share then you may need to up your budget or wait until the winter.
Don't give up but no more buying unseen! It has been done by some of the very experienced people on here and even they are super careful and really know the pitfalls and one or two have been caught out over the years.
		
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Thank you xx we will wait for the winter now, it has been a learning experience but the casualty has been Prince. The poor horse - it’s actually literally heart breaking


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## ihatework (11 July 2020)

Keira 8888 said:



			Oh boy you are right - so right. I completely see this now. This poor horse - I wish I could throw money at the problem and “save” him. But I can’t. I have to put my daughter first. And live with the fact that really - quite honestly - I have failed this horse
		
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You haven’t failed this horse.
The people who knew something was wrong, re-microchipped him and put him into the dealer network have failed him.
You have been super naive but you have also been the victim.

Hearing the backstory then my money is on this horse not being in a rideable condition even after vetwork. Having seen the way things generally pan out I’d be calling the hunt and swallowing the financial loss, and feeling petty shit for the horse at the same time.


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## Keira 8888 (11 July 2020)

MiniMilton said:



			I'm so sorry this has happened. I wouldn't wish this situation on anyone.

Hind sight is wonderful and all the rest, but I just have to say this, as so many are getting caught out buying from Ireland...
There are plenty of dodgy dealers in Ireland who specialise in buying unsafe or unsound horses and selling on to the UK at a massive profit.

UK buyers are buying cheap horses in Ireland thinking they are getting a bargain, but good horses are not cheap in Ireland.
There are lots of very reputable dealers in Ireland but their horses are not cheap.

OP if the horse is otherwise very nice to be around I would think it is something medical like Kissing Spines. I would use the double microchip situation to your advantage and try to get the seller to refund and collect. If the seller won't I would mention in a friendly manner that perhaps you should investigate the duplicate microchips with the Department of Agriculture to see can you get further info on his history. Hopefully put the sh1ts up the seller that they are about to be caught out on whatever dodgy situation they created.
		
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This is exactly what I shall do - thanks so much for your kind response. In your opinion, can kissing spine be fixed?? Just in case that was the problem...


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## MiniMilton (11 July 2020)

Keira 8888 said:



			This is exactly what I shall do - thanks so much for your kind response. In your opinion, can kissing spine be fixed?? Just in case that was the problem...
		
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I haven't dealt with kissing spine myself, but from what I have heard from friends is it requires surgery with unknown results. I don't think it's a route you should go down if you have the option to return the horse


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## [131452] (11 July 2020)

Agree with others,  you need the vet. If his hind end looked sluggish he may well have a problem there. This sounds like a pain related issue for sure.
Whatever you do, please don't pass him around. "Difficult " horses like that eventually end up in bad hands where someone thinks they can beat the horse into submission. 
My 5 yo appy became dangerous and we eventually found,  in addition to his stifle OCD a severe spinal compression in his neck . He was PTS. 
If the vet finds something serious like that all I'd say is that there are fates worse than death for sick and injured horses


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## [131452] (11 July 2020)

Keira 8888 said:



			This is exactly what I shall do - thanks so much for your kind response. In your opinion, can kissing spine be fixed?? Just in case that was the problem...
		
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Depending on severity , kissing spine can be treated successfully with surgery. They can do just a ligament snip or they can go and full on create more space between the vertebrae. I've known a few horses have the ligament snip and do very well afterwards.


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## splashgirl45 (11 July 2020)

Silly Servant said:



			Agree with others,  you need the vet. If his hind end looked sluggish he may well have a problem there. This sounds like a pain related issue for sure.
Whatever you do, please don't pass him around. "Difficult " horses like that eventually end up in bad hands where someone thinks they can beat the horse into submission.
My 5 yo appy became dangerous and we eventually found,  in addition to his stifle OCD a severe spinal compression in his neck . He was PTS.
If the vet finds something serious like that all I'd say is that there are fates worse than death for sick and injured horses
		
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no, she needs to get her refund and the horse (sadly) needs to go back.....the loser in this is the horse...ideally it would be nice to expose the dealer for being crooked, get the refund and keep the horse and if he couldnt be fixed PTS but real life isnt like that..


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## ycbm (11 July 2020)

Antw23uk said:



			You need to take the refund and have them pick him up ASAP. They must be so upset and worried, I know i would be if i had sold a horse to this situation.
		
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 They bought it at auction a few months before.  They're probably bin end dealers.  They don't give a shit about him.  They want him back to sell him to another poor sucker. 

Poor bloody horse.  

Keira if you can afford the loss PLEASE put this horse out of his misery or he will likely be passed from pillar to post for whatever miserable years he has left 

I understand if you need the money back, you're in an unwinnable position here.  I feel very, very sorry for you.  
.


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## Chinchilla (11 July 2020)

If he was my horse, and I acknowledge I am in no way, shape or form really qualified to be commenting on such a matter*, I would NOT - for the sake of the animal's welfare - be returning him to the seller for fear they'd swiftly sell him on to the likely detriment of both horse and new owner.

A vet, for a full work up and/or euthanasia, I think is the only sensible course of action. The latter may be the cheaper option and give you more options for horse ownership in future (if this hasn't put you off) but many health problems are fixable.. Many aren't, and it still requires dedication and experience to rehab, bearing in mind the horse might remember the pain and have behavioural problems which need rectifying too before it can be a riding horse.

Good luck going forward whatever you end up doing, though. I do feel sorry for first owners whose experiences don't go well.

*But it's the internet so you can't stop me commenting lmao . Also I haven't read the whole thread so might have missed something.


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## ycbm (11 July 2020)

Silly Servant said:



			Depending on severity , kissing spine can be treated successfully with surgery. They can do just a ligament snip or they can go and full on create more space between the vertebrae. I've known a few horses have the ligament snip and do very well afterwards.
		
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Don't even think about it Keira.  It's not a thing a first horse owner should take on. I've done one and know others really well. 
.


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## Bellaboo18 (11 July 2020)

Is he insured?


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## doodle (11 July 2020)

Also is he 16? Or much older with a handy new microchip and passport to cover it up? Yes the correct thing to do is send him back for a full refund. Not sure I could do that tho for the sake of the horse.


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## Bellaboo18 (11 July 2020)

Keira 8888 said:



			This is exactly what I shall do - thanks so much for your kind response. In your opinion, can kissing spine be fixed?? Just in case that was the problem...
		
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There's no knowing this is the problem... although ulcers are highly likely and pain from somewhere.


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## Bellaboo18 (11 July 2020)

Kamikaze said:



			Also is he 16? Or much older with a handy new microchip and passport to cover it up? Yes the correct thing to do is send him back for a full refund. Not sure I could do that tho for the sake of the horse.
		
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I know I couldn't but as an inexperienced horse owner I could hardly blame OP.


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## Keira 8888 (11 July 2020)

ihatework said:



			You haven’t failed this horse.
The people who knew something was wrong, re-microchipped him and put him into the dealer network have failed him.
You have been super naive but you have also been the victim.

Hearing the backstory then my money is on this horse not being in a rideable condition even after vetwork. Having seen the way things generally pan out I’d be calling the hunt and swallowing the financial loss, and feeling petty shit for the horse at the same time.
		
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Thank you for saying that - that means so much to me right now x


Antw23uk said:



			You need to take the refund and have them pick him up ASAP. They must be so upset and worried, I know i would be if i had sold a horse to this situation.
		
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what situation do you mean?
He arrived underweight with a dull coat. He is now thriving with care. They weren’t upset or worried at all until I mentioned the two microchips. This horse has had the very best of care with me, he was obviously sold on too quickly by these people - they can’t possibly vouch for him! They bought him from a dealer and sold him on straight away with no care as to where he was going!


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## Wishfilly (11 July 2020)

I think for you, getting the refund is probably the best way forwards. It sounds like they have done something dodgy with the duplicate passport and are worried about being caught out.

A few years ago, I used to work for an organisation that issued horse passports, and I definitely saw some people who had been deliberately scammed, partly through a duplicate passport. Personally, I'd always be wary buying a horse with a very recent duplicate passport- I know passports get lost/damaged and there are honest reasons for needing a duplicate, but a very new one would make me wary.

If you're curious, I'd ring up whoever the passport is with, with the microchip numbers and see if they can tell you anything.

I agree in future buying unseen is not the way to go, but I think that if you are happy to take on an older horse, you should be able to find something safe, reasonably sound and sensible in budget.

ETA: I actually think long term, returning horses like this is the way to go. It may not be the best thing for that individual horse, but the less dealers get away with scamming people, then the less they are likely to do it, which long term will be better for everyone.


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## Bellaboo18 (11 July 2020)

Keira 8888 said:



			Thank you for saying that - that means so much to me right now x

what situation do you mean?
He arrived underweight with a dull coat. He is now thriving with care. They weren’t upset or worried at all until I mentioned the two microchips. This horse has had the very best of care with me, he was obviously sold on too quickly by these people - they can’t possibly vouch for him! They bought him from a dealer and sold him on straight away with no care as to where he was going!
		
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If he was underweight and now thriving in less than 4 weeks he's definitely been having too much feed for the work he's been in.


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## doodle (11 July 2020)

Bellaboo18 said:



			I know I couldn't but as an inexperienced horse owner I could hardly blame OP.
		
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Gosh no I am not saying I blame the op. I totally agree with you.


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## TPO (11 July 2020)

Kiera, how long have you had him? How many days since he left ireland was it that he reared up?

HHOers, how long does dope stay in a horses system? 

It just seems strange that the horse was ok to hack with a novice, feed changes, strange rash/hives and then a "professional"* rides him and he rears. 

I don't know how long you've had him but taking any of the dealers changing accounts of his history he has had a lot of changes to adjust to in a very short space of time. Then a feed change (a lot of horses have issues with alfa) and the outbreak of hives. Could it have been something as simple as the girth rubbing/hurting if the hives are in the same area?

* not slighting the experienced rider you put on. Sometimes different riders aren't always liked by every horse. I've seen absolutely plods lose their heads when "better" riders have gotten on and tried to make the horse do something that it can't physically do/doesn't understand and/or not like what could be classed as "strong" riding. You appear to be a lightweight rider so could the fact that a (bigger/stronger?) man got on be a factor? 

I'm obviously not excusing the fact that the horse reared. Its far from ideal for a nervous novice. I can't remember what I read now, did you witness it happening Kiera? Did anyone else witness it? Was it a genuine rear up? Some people tell about big rears, and they possibly feel big, but watching from the ground it wasnt really that bad. 

It's tricky, and I don't mean this to sound disrespectful, because someone more experienced might have seen it about to happen before it did (& redirect) and spotted the triggers. 

The very sensible and adult thing to do is 100% to return him, get the refund and do better know that you know better. However I've still not mastered the sensible and adult thing 😬

You can't know what you dont know and that's the tricky bit. You literally wouldn't know who to listen to if there were experienced folk on your yard because so many can talk the talk... most of us have been stung in one way or another having been taking in by someone. 

I've missed a few of your threads but will go and read.

How is he kept on the yard? How much turn out on how many acres with how many other horses? What is the grass like? What's he fed? Was he worm counted? Had he had his teeth done? Have you had a saddle fitter? How does his bit and bridle fit? What did your vet do when he was out? Has he had his hooves done since you got him?

Having a horse is a money pit. I can fully appreciate that if someone has paid X for a product and been sold Y that they would be unhappy and want their money back. I would just worry about him going back to the dealer who has done this (if infact they have done anything. It could be the upheaval/feed change/tack fit/skinny horse now getting food and feeling full of the joys/any other 100 things).


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## misst (11 July 2020)

Bellaboo18 said:



			There's no knowing this is the problem... although ulcers are highly likely and pain from somewhere.
		
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At the end of the day this is an older TB type who would seem to be uncomfortable at best. He came in poor condition from what someone on here has described as a bin end dealer. He may well be unsound, he may well have KS and/or ulcers. He has obviously been passed around and was sold to an inexperienced but loving home.
To fix a horse like this would take time money and a huge amount of experience. The horse would probably never bit fit for purpose. For a professional it might be possible for an amatur especially an inexperienced one it would be almost impossible. The OP needs a horse for herself and her daughter. The horse ideally needs to be PTS but I fully understand that this is not the OPs fault and financially this is a huge ask.
I honestly think suggestions on how to fix him are a bit of lost cause and the poor OP should not be starting down a road of huge expense - even with insurance, huge heartbreak and no fun for her daughter or herself. Sorry to be so negative but there are worse things than PTS


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## Amymay (11 July 2020)

What a dreadful situation.

I’m another who wonders if you could stand the loss and simply have the poor creature put down.

Do you know if he raced OP?


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## Bellaboo18 (11 July 2020)

misst said:



			At the end of the day this is an older TB type who would seem to be uncomfortable at best. He came in poor condition from what someone on here has described as a bin end dealer. He may well be unsound, he may well have KS and/or ulcers. He has obviously been passed around and was sold to an inexperienced but loving home.
To fix a horse like this would take time money and a huge amount of experience. The horse would probably never bit fit for purpose. For a professional it might be possible for an amatur especially an inexperienced one it would be almost impossible. The OP needs a horse for herself and her daughter. The horse ideally needs to be PTS but I fully understand that this is not the OPs fault and financially this is a huge ask.
I honestly think suggestions on how to fix him are a bit of lost cause and the poor OP should not be starting down a road of huge expense - even with insurance, huge heartbreak and no fun for her daughter or herself. Sorry to be so negative but there are worse things than PTS
		
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Yep there are worse things than pts but I don't think that's what OP is thinking of doing.


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## Honey08 (11 July 2020)

Poor Prince.  Having to go back to the horrible dealer and probably be sold on again to someone who can’t cope.  
Not meaning to be horrible, but next time follow your head not your heart. Don’t buy unseen.  Have it vetted.  Follow up any dodgy double microchip warnings!  Set yourself up for success, not failure.  And the horse.


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## Keira 8888 (11 July 2020)

Funnily enough the dentist thought he was actually younger than 16! Very strange!

I am toying with the idea of a full in-depth medical work up so Prince can be saved a vicious circle of this happening again.

I will keep you all updated. I can’t tell you how grateful I am for your support.


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## Keira 8888 (11 July 2020)

Honey08 said:



			Poor Prince.  Having to go back to the horrible dealer and probably be sold on again to someone who can’t cope. 
Not meaning to be horrible, but next time follow your head not your heart. Don’t buy unseen.  Have it vetted.  Follow up any dodgy double microchip warnings!  Set yourself up for success, not failure.  And the horse.
		
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You are so right. I have learnt my lesson the hard way. Poor Prince  I’m going to get this sorted if it kills me (let’s hope it won’t !!!)


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## misst (11 July 2020)

Keira 8888 said:



			Funnily enough the dentist thought he was actually younger than 16! Very strange!

I am toying with the idea of a full in-depth medical work up so Prince can be saved a vicious circle of this happening again.

I will keep you all updated. I can’t tell you how grateful I am for your support.
		
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Just be aware you may not get all the answers and he probably is not fixable - if there was a quick fix someone would have done it. It's really hard to stop once you go down this road, it's always "just one more try/investigation/week/month" I know I've been there and spent thousands on ahorse on box rest for 9 months. I should have PTS at the start and all these years later I still feel guilty.


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## fusspot (11 July 2020)

I am so sorry to read everything you are going through.Having your first horse is meant to be so special.Please don’t beat yourself up,Sadly this reflects quite a few people within the horse world these days who are only interested in the money and have no regard for you or the horse.Unfortunately it has happened now and there is no going back and is a lesson learned....you have now learnt never to buy unseen and to have somebody with experience go with you....and you have also learned how there are quite a few people in the horse world who have no scruples and should say, sorry but this horse is not suitable for you.

I would be getting to the bottom of the hives,I bought a mare that developed a bad rash which turned into hives,she got very evil whenever you put your leg on and was very uncomfortable with it and ended up being Allergy tested and was allergic to nearly everything-cost a fortune having to have her desensitised and even than had some reaction to some things.

I think you said it’s very underweight,it could well have an allergy to Alfa-if that’s what it’s on-but a lot cannot tolerate Alfa and it can blow there brains so would be removing that straight away.Of course,some people who have a difficult horse starve it so that it has no energy to play up,when the new owner feeds it up and it looks and feels better,the bad behaviour starts.

The two microchips would be of concern to me and the fact there stories do not match up.Even if you don’t have a 5 Stage vetting,it is always worth getting bloods taken so if as in this situation, the horse starts playing up,you can run the bloods to see if horse has been sedated or had painkillers to mask anything.

It does all sound pain related and potentially Kissing Spine,some not so bad ones are treatable but if or if not simple, or if they need surgery, the rehab is time consuming and really needs somebody with a lot of experience and potentially sending it to a Rehab yard for a few months to get it right-this is costly and you cannot guarantee that the behaviour from the horse being in pain won’t be learned and used in future.

Your other issue now is also that if the horse needs treatment to try and get it right....somebody has to eventually get back on board....your YO won’t now and you will then have it on your conscience if somebody does get on and it goes over backwards and potentially paralyses or kills somebody.

Sadly you are in a catch 22...in all honesty, you should send the horse back and get your money back.Trouble is, you then can not guarantee the horses future.If you don’t return the horse if they agree a full refund, you are taking full responsibility for the horse and could potentially end up with a horse that will highly likely be PTS or a field ornament at best and no financial return from it.

We all make mistakes and hopefully learn from them,what’s happened has happened and you now need to put all that behind you and move on and try and get the situation sorted so you are not out of pocket...you must not let your heart rule your head..Good luck.x


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## Pinkvboots (11 July 2020)

I totally understand you wanting to get to the bottom of his problem get a good recommended vet to do a proper work up,  it might be worth mentioning where yiu are someone on here may know of a good vet you can use, I would also get both of his microchip numbers and look into that as well, please keep us updated.


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## ycbm (11 July 2020)

Keira 8888 said:



			Funnily enough the dentist thought he was actually younger than 16! Very strange!

I am toying with the idea of a full in-depth medical work up so Prince can be saved a vicious circle of this happening again.

I will keep you all updated. I can’t tell you how grateful I am for your support.
		
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Keira, you're a good person,  but sadly  it's more likely this approach will break your heart. I really advise you not to put yourself through it. 
.


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## Keira 8888 (11 July 2020)

scats said:



			OP, has this rearing behaviour just started?  I’m a bit confused about timelines.  How long have you had him and when did the rearing start?
		
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It started three weeks after owning him, so a week ago. I rode him in his field after a week and he was perfect. My daughter rode him too. It was only when he was taken from his field that he started to nap and act up. So the rearing started just this week x


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## LadyGascoyne (11 July 2020)

Unfortunately, Keira, it does sound like someone has seen your inexperience as an opportunity. The human race can really be ghastly sometimes.

I feel awfully sorry for both you and the horse.

In terms of experienced help, I would find a reputable instructor and take them with you to try horses.

If I were your YO or instructor, I would not be encouraging an inexperienced first time owner to buy anything they hadn’t tried and seen in multiple situations. In fact, I’d be looking to suggest a schoolmaster that I knew personally, it at all possible.

Another thing to consider is that a lot of us here have or have had delinquent geriatrics- age is no guarantee that they will be sensible.


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## Keira 8888 (11 July 2020)

Pinkvboots said:



			I totally understand you wanting to get to the bottom of his problem get a good recommended vet to do a proper work up,  it might be worth mentioning where yiu are someone on here may know of a good vet you can use, I would also get both of his microchip numbers and look into that as well, please keep us updated.
		
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I will do, thank you XX


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## ycbm (11 July 2020)

Keira 8888 said:



			It started three weeks after owning him, so a week ago. I rode him in his field after a week and he was perfect. My daughter rode him too. It was only when he was taken from his field that he started to nap and act up. So the rearing started just this week x
		
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This is classic timing for medication wearing off.


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## Wishfilly (11 July 2020)

TPO said:



			Kiera, how long have you had him? How many days since he left ireland was it that he reared up?

HHOers, how long does dope stay in a horses system?

It just seems strange that the horse was ok to hack with a novice, feed changes, strange rash/hives and then a "professional"* rides him and he rears.

I don't know how long you've had him but taking any of the dealers changing accounts of his history he has had a lot of changes to adjust to in a very short space of time. Then a feed change (a lot of horses have issues with alfa) and the outbreak of hives. Could it have been something as simple as the girth rubbing/hurting if the hives are in the same area?

* not slighting the experienced rider you put on. Sometimes different riders aren't always liked by every horse. I've seen absolutely plods lose their heads when "better" riders have gotten on and tried to make the horse do something that it can't physically do/doesn't understand and/or not like what could be classed as "strong" riding. You appear to be a lightweight rider so could the fact that a (bigger/stronger?) man got on be a factor?

I'm obviously not excusing the fact that the horse reared. Its far from ideal for a nervous novice. I can't remember what I read now, did you witness it happening Kiera? Did anyone else witness it? Was it a genuine rear up? Some people tell about big rears, and they possibly feel big, but watching from the ground it wasnt really that bad.

It's tricky, and I don't mean this to sound disrespectful, because someone more experienced might have seen it about to happen before it did (& redirect) and spotted the triggers.

The very sensible and adult thing to do is 100% to return him, get the refund and do better know that you know better. However I've still not mastered the sensible and adult thing 😬

You can't know what you dont know and that's the tricky bit. You literally wouldn't know who to listen to if there were experienced folk on your yard because so many can talk the talk... most of us have been stung in one way or another having been taking in by someone.

I've missed a few of your threads but will go and read.

How is he kept on the yard? How much turn out on how many acres with how many other horses? What is the grass like? What's he fed? Was he worm counted? Had he had his teeth done? Have you had a saddle fitter? How does his bit and bridle fit? What did your vet do when he was out? Has he had his hooves done since you got him?

Having a horse is a money pit. I can fully appreciate that if someone has paid X for a product and been sold Y that they would be unhappy and want their money back. I would just worry about him going back to the dealer who has done this (if infact they have done anything. It could be the upheaval/feed change/tack fit/skinny horse now getting food and feeling full of the joys/any other 100 things).
		
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If you read the OP, the horse has reared with both the YO and the OP on board and reared several times. The vertical rear OP was on board and the YO thought they were inches from going over on the ground. I do get what you are saying about one rider causing a reaction, but it seems unlikely this is going on in this case- and even if that was the cause of the problem, the horse doesn't sound safe for the OP in any way.



Keira 8888 said:



			Funnily enough the dentist thought he was actually younger than 16! Very strange!

I am toying with the idea of a full in-depth medical work up so Prince can be saved a vicious circle of this happening again.

I will keep you all updated. I can’t tell you how grateful I am for your support.
		
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If you are going to go down the medical route, then you need to be prepared for it to cost a lot of money, cause a lot of heartache and for you to maybe never get a clear answer. It could be kissing spines. It could be ulcers. It could be something else or a combination of things. It's still very, very likely you will end up with an unridable horse at the end of it all. I can understand wanting to go down this route, but I think you have to have an understanding of what it involves.

Just for my own curiosity, and feel free not to answer, but is the horse a thoroughbred and does he have a weatherbys passport? And if not, does either microchip number start with 9851010?


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## lme (11 July 2020)

One of our horses started rearing vertically. We had her x-rayed (x-rays confirmed it was not kissing spine) and she then had an MRI which showed she had strained her super-spinous ligament. A steroid jab and physio followed by a slow return to work made her a lot more comfortable.


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## Keira 8888 (11 July 2020)

Bellaboo18 said:



			Is he insured?
		
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He is - I got quite hefty insurance for vet fees and third party xx


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## KittenInTheTree (11 July 2020)

Keira 8888 said:



			Funnily enough the dentist thought he was actually younger than 16! Very strange!

*I am toying with the idea of a full in-depth medical work up so Prince can be saved a vicious circle of this happening again.*

I will keep you all updated. I can’t tell you how grateful I am for your support.
		
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This would be the decent thing to do, and you might as well make use of your insurance - that's what it's there for, after all. Presumably, you could also get to the bottom of the extra microchip, and then let the passport agencies involved pursue whoever is behind that.


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## Flame_ (11 July 2020)

Keira 8888 said:



			I am toying with the idea of a full in-depth medical work up so Prince can be saved a vicious circle of this happening again.
		
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An infinite number of things can be wrong with a horse. Some can be found, some can't. Some can be fixed, some can't. Even if you find and fix a physical problem the odds of the horse's behavior resolving itself aren't particularly good. If you can get your money back just take it and move on. Write the whole experience off as a lesson learnt and start over with a very different, less trusting approach.


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## Pearlsasinger (11 July 2020)

Whatever else you decide to do, I suggest that you make sure that your vet got a note of the 2 microchip numbers and pursue that, which sounds very dodgy.  That should at least give you some justice for Prince.


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## Upthecreek (11 July 2020)

I feel for you, but I absolutely could not send this horse back and live with myself. I would rather stand next to him being shot. I’m guessing he looks the part and will just get moved on every time it goes wrong, which is inevitably what will happen unless somebody is prepared to spend time and money on investigations or has the balls to put him out of his misery

Did you have a 5 stage vetting with bloods taken before you purchased the horse? If not please learn the lesson that if a horse is everything you are looking for but for a cheap price, it is probably too good to be true, particularly in the current market.

I’m sorry if I sound harsh, but I’m well & truly fed up of reading about people that buy horses without properly trying them or having them vetted, paying a bargain price, and then being surprised when it all goes wrong.


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## Wishfilly (11 July 2020)

KittenInTheTree said:



			This would be the decent thing to do, and you might as well make use of your insurance - that's what it's there for, after all. Presumably, you could also get to the bottom of the extra microchip, and then let the passport agencies involved pursue whoever is behind that.
		
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AFIAK, and things may have changed, they won't pursue it in any legal sense. It's just a way for OP to get more information about the possible background of the horse.


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## Keira 8888 (11 July 2020)

Pearlsasinger said:



			Whatever else you decide to do, I suggest that you make sure that your vet got a note of the 2 microchip numbers and pursue that, which sounds very dodgy.  That should at least give you some justice for Prince.
		
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Jeez - those words of yours have meant everything to me. “Some justice for Prince”. You are bloody right, I’m so glad you said that. I am going to get some god damn justice for Prince and you saying that had put me from neutral into fifth gear!!! How dare people deal like this! How dare this happen to an animal?! I am going to fight this every inch of the way and I will NOT let this horse go back to the dealer. If he has to be a field ornament for the rest of his life so be it - at least some good will come of this x


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## Wishfilly (11 July 2020)

I agree with everyone that the best thing for this individual horse is not to send him back and to do veterinary investigations, and PTS if needed.

However, if everyone does that and dealers continue to make a profit in this way, then it means that other horses will continue to get put in the same situation. I do accept that sending the horse back is a hard thing to do, and I know in reality it would be hard for me to be that hard hearted with an animal.


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## Keira 8888 (11 July 2020)

Upthecreek said:



			I feel for you, but I absolutely could not send this horse back and live with myself. I would rather stand next to him being shot. I’m guessing he looks the part and will just get moved on every time it goes wrong, which is inevitably what will happen unless somebody is prepared to spend time and money on investigations or has the balls to put him out of his misery

Did you have a 5 stage vetting with bloods taken before you purchased the horse? If not please learn the lesson that if a horse is everything you are looking for but for a cheap price, it is probably too good to be true, particularly in the current market.

I’m sorry if I sound harsh, but I’m well & truly fed up of reading about people that buy horses without properly trying them or having them vetted, paying a bargain price, and then being surprised when it all goes wrong.
		
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Yep, you are absolutely right. I will not let this happen. My mistake. I will not let Prince move on x


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## Wishfilly (11 July 2020)

Keira 8888 said:



			Jeez - those words of yours have meant everything to me. “Some justice for Prince”. You are bloody right, I’m so glad you said that. I am going to get some god damn justice for Prince and you saying that had put me from neutral into fifth gear!!! How dare people deal like this! How dare this happen to an animal?! I am going to fight this every inch of the way and I will NOT let this horse go back to the dealer. If he has to be a field ornament for the rest of his life so be it - at least some good will come of this x
		
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I hate to say it but I really do think you are unlikely to get meaningful justice pursuing the potentially dodgy duplicate passport. It may well be that the previous owners have broken passporting legislation, but the legislation really doesn't have much in the way of teeth, and is especially difficult to enforce across countries. 

I do think you should contact the people who have issued the passport as it may be a useful route to finding more information, but I don't think you'll get any justice unless things have changed A LOT in the past few years.


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## Bellaboo18 (11 July 2020)

Keira 8888 said:



			He is - I got quite hefty insurance for vet fees and third party xx
		
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That's good. 

So to throw another idea out there, would the seller give you a partial refund and you get to keep him? Between that and your insurance you could do a full workup and hopefully get some answers. 
I think the biggest gift we can give animals is putting them out of pain. 
If you go for this you'd probably be starting on a emotional rollercoaster, you'd learn a lot but you may or may not have a horse at the end of it. 

The reason I mentioned ulcers was I think you said he was turning around and biting at his stomach(?) 

Anyway to sum up my opinion,

Heart-keep him, get the workup done and get answers. End the merry-go-round so many horses have to go on. 

Head- Send him back, get your refund at least you've learnt from all of this. 

I know which I'd do but what's right for one individual isn't necessarily right for another. 

And, I don't think I've said...I'm so sorry you're going through this. People can be pretty evil.


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## doodle (11 July 2020)

Just be aware the insurance might not pay out. They may well argue it is a pre existing condition. Even with a 5 stage vetting , which I don’t think he had. My old boss fell foul of that. Horse had 5 stage vetting which missed a fairly big injury. Dealer said prove it was pre existing/you were miss sold. The vet who did the subsequent op to try and fix horse showed his evidence that it was. Dealer said horse was fine with me. Vet who vetted said it was sound the day it was vetted. Insurance said vet said issue was pre existing so we won’t pay anything. She had a horse she paid £8k for pts after several thousand in vets fees and legal fees and got not a penny back.


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## Wishfilly (11 July 2020)

Keira 8888 said:



			Yep, you are absolutely right. I will not let this happen. My mistake. I will not let Prince move on x
		
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Please do think about this really carefully, and make sure you are clear about what you are committing to/taking on.

I think you have been through a lot in the last few days/weeks and this is not a decision to make in the space of an evening.

ETA: The fact that the dealer offered a refund as soon as you mentioned the additional microchip suggests to me they are deliberately trying to hide something. I am aware of known dangerous animals who have been sold on this way in the past. 

The fact that the dentist thought his age might not be accurate is another red flag.


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## ycbm (11 July 2020)

Keira 8888 said:



			He is - I got quite hefty insurance for vet fees and third party xx
		
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You need to check your policy first to see if they will pay.    You have experienced difficulties requiring a vet to investigate within a month of insuring him.  They all have a period of a minimum of two weeks  at the beginning when that's not covered. 

Please don't bankrupt yourself paying for thousands of pounds of investigations. Things like this often exceed the insured amount and still end up with no answer.  A friend of mine has just retired an 8 year old after blowing her insurance and still having an unrideable horse.  
.


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## Flame_ (11 July 2020)

Kamikaze said:



			Just be aware the insurance might not pay out. They may well argue it is a pre existing condition. Even with a 5 stage vetting , which I don’t think he had. My old boss fell foul of that. Horse had 5 stage vetting which missed a fairly big injury. Dealer said prove it was pre existing/you were miss sold. The vet who did the subsequent op to try and fix horse showed his evidence that it was. Dealer said horse was fine with me. Vet who vetted said it was sound the day it was vetted. Insurance said vet said issue was pre existing so we won’t pay anything. She had a horse she paid £8k for pts after several thousand in vets fees and legal fees and got not a penny back.
		
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OP, have you considered motorcycles instead?   I really hope you end up with the right horse.


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## Pearlsasinger (11 July 2020)

Wishfilly said:



			I hate to say it but I really do think you are unlikely to get meaningful justice pursuing the potentially dodgy duplicate passport. It may well be that the previous owners have broken passporting legislation, but the legislation really doesn't have much in the way of teeth, and is especially difficult to enforce across countries.

I do think you should contact the people who have issued the passport as it may be a useful route to finding more information, but I don't think you'll get any justice unless things have changed A LOT in the past few years.
		
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I wasn't meaning to try to get anything done about the duplicate passport itself, it could possibly be used as evidence of intent to defraud and that is the avenue that I would go down, after taking legal advice.

OP, if you keep Prince, please do be careful about your own safety.


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## Wishfilly (11 July 2020)

Pearlsasinger said:



			I wasn't meaning to try to get anything done about the duplicate passport itself, it could possibly be used as evidence of intent to defraud and that is the avenue that I would go down, after taking legal advice.

OP, if you keep Prince, please do be careful about your own safety.
		
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Sorry, I misunderstood what you were saying. 

I do think going down this sort of legal route given the seller is based in another country is likely to be very difficult, though- but it could definitely be worth a try.


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## fusspot (11 July 2020)

Keira 8888 said:



			Yep, you are absolutely right. I will not let this happen. My mistake. I will not let Prince move on x
		
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I totally understand how you are feeling and would probably feel the same way but unfortunately having been in the horse world for a very long time...trying to get to the bottom of things,hold people to account etc...very rarely happens.It is a very sad situation but there are huge groups of people within the horse world that sell dodgy horses,provide fake passports etc....and they all have a way of worming out of it...as with a lot of organisations and sports...a lot of it is run by dodgy people that have each other’s backs.

It is a very difficult situation as would not be certain that Insurance would pay out as so soon after taking out policy,when they read what has happened,they will question and look into it.

Honestly,I would take a couple of days to really think and work out the whole situation before deciding which way to go.


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## ester (11 July 2020)

Another who would not assume the insurance will pay for investigations at this point when it seems likely the horse has a pre-existing problem rather than a recent traumatic injury.


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## DSB (11 July 2020)

One last question?
If after testing,a problem was found that could be cured/fixed,would you be happy to continue riding him and allow your children to ride as well?
If the answer is NO,the kindest thing to do is to arrange for him to be euthanased.


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## Keira 8888 (11 July 2020)

DSB said:



One last question?
If after testing,a problem was found that could be cured/fixed,would you be happy to continue riding him and allow your children to ride as well?
If the answer is NO,the kindest thing to do is to arrange for him to be euthanased.
		
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That is a very good question. I just don’t  know the answer


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## Pinkvboots (11 July 2020)

DSB said:



One last question?
If after testing,a problem was found that could be cured/fixed,would you be happy to continue riding him and allow your children to ride as well?
If the answer is NO,the kindest thing to do is to arrange for him to be euthanased.
		
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What why does he need to ridden horses don't care if there ridden or not, if op wants to keep him as a field pet that's up to her he doesn't need to be pts just because she chooses not to ride him.


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## Jules111 (11 July 2020)

Insurance companies often use any possible excuse to avoid paying a claim. I made a loss of use and hefty vets bill claim a few years ago and had to prove that the condition couldn't have been predicted as pre-existing at the point I bought the horse. It was only the 5 stage vetting certificate that proved that I couldn't have known there was a problem. Basically I had to argue that if a qualified vet found the horse to be fit and well enough to pass a vetting it must have been impossible to predict.  

In my situation an incurable kissing spine diagnosis was found in a 4 yr old very well bred horse. I personally believe the breeder I bought from knew there was a problem but didn't investigate to avoid any records.  The horse was PTS within 3 months of me owning it and that was the kindest outcome, the poor thing looked amazing in the flesh but the xray revealed incredible conformational problems that would have caused huge pain for the poor creature.  I am far from being new to having and managing horses, but I think I was duped.  It happens to many of us so please don't beat yourself up.

In your situation I'd try to get some "compensation" from the dealer in the form of a partial refund (full if you push hard enough) on the understanding that you will do right by the horse to ensure it doesn't suffer in the future.

It's an awful situation but you should give yourself credit for trying as hard as possible to give this horse the best home your can. His problems are not of your making.


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## Firefly9410 (12 July 2020)

Keira 8888 said:



			Funnily enough the dentist thought he was actually younger than 16! Very strange!

.
		
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Not so strange . You told them you wanted older quiet been there done that. They told you he was older quiet been there done that. Friend of a friend horsey novice bought quiet ancient horse with worn down teeth viewed but untried and unvetted. Bucked her off repeatedly. Had vet. It was two. They were milk teeth. 

Can people please stop referring to a Duplicate Passport. Duplicate is replacing original been lost. This horse has two microchip. Second passport. Not duplicate.


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## SatansLittleHelper (12 July 2020)

OP, have read through all of this. You've been sn absolute wally.....but we have all done daft things and hoped for the best. You are clearly trying to do right by this horse and I don't think you need to feel ashamed. People can be utter arseholes and sadly it is the poor animals involved that get the rough end of the stick.
I would hate to be in your shoes trying to decide what's best but there is no shame in returning him to the dealer. If you can afford to take the financial hit then PTS is an option but ultimately most of us simply can't afford to lose that sort of money.
I really wish you well in whatever you decide to do, but don't rush into refusing to send him back.  You have to think of yourself and your daughter as well as the horse xx


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## ozpoz (12 July 2020)

7


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## Frano (12 July 2020)

Has anyone tried leading him to and from his field following another horse. Does it make a difference?Perhaps he has never worked on his own. Some horse always get worked with others in a group, and if you try to take them out on their own they are scared,nappy or worse.Be interesting to look into the two passports.


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## cauda equina (12 July 2020)

If he's a sweet guy to handle and generally good unless ridden perhaps a bloodbank would take him


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## Auslander (12 July 2020)

Antw23uk said:



			Oh dear! Arent you the lady that made a post about losing your confidence bringing a horse in from the field or something? You are way out of your depth here and you need to find this horse a suitable home, you are scaring him, he is not suitable for you. I would likely air on the side of the previous owner who says he's never done anything like this before!

Sorry to sound harsh but this kind of post is nothing new sadly and keeps happening time and again and its always the previous owner that's blamed and the poor horse left out in the proverbial cold! This is such a horrible situation and im sorry again if my post sounds harsh. Agree with others you should not be getting on him again, he needs to go back or find a suitable home that understands him. Good luck.
		
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Antw23uk said:



			You need to take the refund and have them pick him up ASAP. They must be so upset and worried, I know i would be if i had sold a horse to this situation.
		
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Did you log back in after months of inactivity just to bitch at the OP, because that's how it looks.

OP is devastated, and accepts that she made a mistake purchasing unseen from what sounds like a bin end dealer, who only had the horse a matter of weeks. She doesn't deserve to be patronised and made to feel guilty for not being able to cope with the behaviour the horse is demonstrating - when she made it clear to the dealer that she was looking for a safe, sensible older horse for her and her young child. The fault lies entirely with the dealer, who won't give a flying f*** about the horse, let alone be "upset and worried".

Being nasty to someone who is inexperienced, and has been taken for a ride is not ok. Save that for the people who should know better, but carry on doing wrong by their horses because they don't give a toss/are convinced they are right, despite all evidence to the contrary. OP has learned a harsh lesson, and is trying to figure out what to do to ensure this horse doesn't end up in a worse situation. Try and be nice.


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## DabDab (12 July 2020)

Oh, I really feel for you OP, and Prince...what a pants situation.

Personally I would take their reaction to you knowing about the microchips and run with it - for them to change their attitude so quickly when that was mentioned I would bet they have done more than commit passport fraud.

With Prince, since I don't think you really want to return him - treat the hives and let them settle, take him off feed just in case and then see what you have, and what story the double microchip tells. Don't spend a lot of money on vet investigations for the rearing, treatmenta for a lot of possible conditions would not be fair on him or you since it could have been going on for years. Having him pts could well be a kindness in itself.


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## Winters100 (12 July 2020)

Keira I am so very sorry that you are in this situation. You have nothing to be ashamed of, someone took advantage of your inexperience, but regardless most long term horse owners have at least once made a mistake and bought a horse that does not work out for one reason or other, I know that I have.  You have been doing your best to do right by him, keeping him on full livery with an experienced YO, paying for him to be ridden by an experienced rider...... we can only do our best.

I totally understand your reluctance to send him back.  I do think however that you have to accept that you and your daughter should never ride this horse again, the risk is simply too great.  At his age the chances of finding an experienced home who want to work with him is virtually 0, so if you really do not want to send him back I think your best option might be to have the vet look at him and if he is comfortable in the paddock look for someone who wants a companion horse on long term loan.  In this case I would be seriously looking at getting at least some refund from the seller.

One thing did strike me. You said "He is a different horse coming back than he is leaving."   So perhaps not pain related, but you can not be certain, as it could also just be that by this stage he has warmed up and has less pain.  The real problem is that you may never know, as if the vet finds nothing it can mean that there is either no pain, or that the source of the pain is just not discovered.  So really if you do decide to keep him do so with your eyes open and knowing that you may have a hard, and potentially expensive. road ahead.  If you send him back the dealer won't do extensive investigations, so in this case he will either be sold on or pts, probably the first of these 2 options.  

Having a paddock ornament for potentially 10+ years is an expensive business. This may be controversial, and I am sure that many people will tell you that it is your decision alone, but I would also try to discuss with your husband and agree on the course of action. A good friend of mine has an 8 year old in retirement livery, and I know that it has caused many disagreements over the years.  In my opinion it is better if he can at least feel that he has had a say.

You are not the first person to be taken advantage of in this way, so do not beat yourself up about it.  Good luck, and really I am so sorry x


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## [131452] (12 July 2020)

Keira 8888 said:



			It started three weeks after owning him, so a week ago. I rode him in his field after a week and he was perfect. My daughter rode him too. It was only when he was taken from his field that he started to nap and act up. So the rearing started just this week x
		
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He was probably quieter at first because he was in poor condition. And quite likely had bute in his system.. A dope would wear off in 24 hours but the anti inflammatory effect of bute could help him up to a few weeks.  A couple of weeks of good feed and no bute and  he now has the energy to show you how he feels.
I made the comments about KS surgery in general, not because I think that's what I think you should do.

If this was me, there is no way I could send the horse back. I would spend some money on medical examinations first. And depending on the findings,would seriously consider putting him out of his misery.

If you manage to send him back , I guarantee he will be sold on and quite possibly beaten into submission. It would be kinder to put him to sleep.


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## Red-1 (12 July 2020)

Keira 8888 said:



			yes you are so right. I have learnt so much from this  SO much, poor Prince. I am ashamed of myself
		
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You have no need to be ashamed. You have tried to do the right thing with the information you had.


Keira 8888 said:



			Oh boy you are right - so right. I completely see this now. This poor horse - I wish I could throw money at the problem and “save” him. But I can’t. I have to put my daughter first. And live with the fact that really - quite honestly - I have failed this horse
		
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You have not failed this horse, someone else has.


Keira 8888 said:



			I am toying with the idea of a full in-depth medical work up so Prince can be saved a vicious circle of this happening again.
		
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To be fair, if you can return to sender and get a refund, I would do this. No, it is not the best thing, probably, for Prince. But, if you don't then the dealer gets away with it again. They have profited from Prince.

I have a rule here, once a horse is under my guardianship, then I do my very best. But, they are not under my guardianship the instant money changes hands. They audition at home. He failed that audition, he is not the horse you were sold. I would not pass him on to just anyone, not to another cheap dealer for them to make money. But, yes, I would send hm back so the 1st dealer didn't make a profit from me.



Keira 8888 said:



			It started three weeks after owning him, so a week ago. I rode him in his field after a week and he was perfect. My daughter rode him too. It was only when he was taken from his field that he started to nap and act up. So the rearing started just this week x
		
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I know you say you bought the same saddle he was ridden in before, but you don't say who fitted it? You can get 3 saddles from the same model/manufacturer, and thy can all fit slightly differently. More so with a used saddle. Even more so if the saddle is brand new and then beds down.


Keira 8888 said:



			He is - I got quite hefty insurance for vet fees and third party xx
		
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This is good news if you don't send back. Be aware that the horse isn't covered for anything other than external injury for 14 days after insuring, with most companies.


Keira 8888 said:



			Jeez - those words of yours have meant everything to me. “Some justice for Prince”. You are bloody right, I’m so glad you said that. I am going to get some god damn justice for Prince and you saying that had put me from neutral into fifth gear!!! How dare people deal like this! How dare this happen to an animal?! I am going to fight this every inch of the way and I will NOT let this horse go back to the dealer. If he has to be a field ornament for the rest of his life so be it - at least some good will come of this x
		
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I would also think of justice for all the other bin end horses. By giving profit for Prince to the dealer, you are funding another 'Prince' to be purchased and handed round. I would hand back if you can.

If you do decide to keep, I would reiterate my advice from post 2, to send to a very experienced yard. I am talking someone with a high throughput of youngsters, a backing and breaking expert, likely someone who is also competitively experienced. I would look for personal recommendations on here. That is likely to be £200 plus a week for the calibre of placement you need to be making such important decisions. They will be able to assess tack, manners, recommend vets interventions, take Prince to a vet hospital if that is where you decide to go. They will have excellent farriers, a physio and the entire support team. I would bank on 6-10 weeks for a thorough assessment, so likely the whole price of the horse.

If they recommend PTS, then you can do so, knowing that an expert has explored every sensible avenue. I say sensible, as sometimes it can be like going down the rabbit hole. At some point you have to draw a line.

As I said, I would send back to the dealer, and put that in writing pronto, as you have only 30 days to do so. It will save another horse from being sucked into the system.

I also echo giving your husband a voice in this. I appreciate he is angry. Mr Red loves my horse, but we (me and my horse) had a miscommunication on Friday at a pole work clinic and I fell off. Mr Red was furious, the horse was no longer welcome, the horse is evil, the horse blah blah... she is welcome, it was just one of those things, she is generally very sweet, we just had a miscommunication...Mr Red worries about me. It is all forgiven now, I understood that it was just him blowing off his worries. 

I imagine it is worse for your OH, as there are children involved for which he is also responsible. It is also worse for your OH as he knows nothing about horses and was relying on your knowledge. That said, I would be pretty pissed if he wasn't talking when you needed his support!


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## Jellymoon (12 July 2020)

I actually feel really sorry for the horse and I’m surprised at the number of people telling you to send him back. Send him back to what fate I wonder? The people you bought him from sound very dodgy indeed and what do you suppose they will do with him? He’s 16 for goodness sake and clearly in some serious pain. 

Yes, you did a very silly thing, you know this, but it’s not Prince’s fault.

I had a similar thing once some years ago, bought 3 connemaras unseen from Ireland, and two were fantastic. One we still have, the other was super talented and went to a lovely Eventing home, but the third poor pony was very thin and unwell with worm damage and was rather difficult to deal with. My more experienced friend told me to send him straight back, but I couldn’t, he looked so sad and worried, so I tried to get him right, but after 3 years, had to have him pts. I would never have sent him back. I didn’t pay very much for him (like you £2500) I considered him a rescue.

I think you have to deal with the situation you find yourself in for the sake of the horse. Either spend out to find out what is wrong with him, or have him pts. This really is much kinder than shipping him back to an unknown fate. Is losing £2500 going to make you destitute?
Then I would reassess. If you have a pony mad 9 yr old, you really need a nice pony. Not a 16.3 ex hunter with serious issues.


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## ycbm (12 July 2020)

Winters100 said:



			so if you really do not want to send him back I think your best option might be to have the vet look at him and if he is comfortable in the paddock look for someone who wants a companion horse on long term loan.
		
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Keira please don't think this option would be easy or trouble free.  There aren't many loan homes available  for a TB type of that size, on loan you could find him returned to you with 30 days notice at any time, 'loan' horses not infrequently disappear and are sold on as riding horses (I have had one), and loan and cheap horses are sometimes badly treated and need to be taken back (I've had one of those too).

.


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## Red-1 (12 July 2020)

If the conversation with the dealer was by phone, I would send a text along the lines of,,


"Hi, after our conversation last night about Prince, where you told me you had only had him for 2 months and had got him from an auction, it is clear he was mis-represented as you had told me he had been (eventing?) and used in a riding school and was quiet. He has shown dangerous behaviours to me, as discussed, and is not suitable for the purpose sold, that is as a quiet first horse for a novice and a child to learn on. Moreover, I have checked and he has 2 microchips and a recently applied for passport, which I have not yet looked into.

As Prince was misrepresented, and is not fit for purpose, I reject him. Please refund me, after I have received the funds he will be available for collection. "

I am not a solicitor, but I would send something along these lines.


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## Winters100 (12 July 2020)

ycbm said:



			Keira please don't think this option would be easy or trouble free.  There aren't many loan homes available  for a TB type of that size, on loan you could find him returned to you with 30 days notice at any time, 'loan' horses not infrequently disappear and are sold on as riding horses (I have had one), and loan and cheap horses are sometimes badly treated and need to be taken back (I've had one of those too).

.
		
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This is a very good point


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## scats (12 July 2020)

Just be aware that many insurance companies will only cover accidental injury for the first 1-3 months.  I got stung by this, I was one day inside of the 3 month period with a horse and was landed with a £3k vet bill the week before Christmas.


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## ycbm (12 July 2020)

DabDab said:



			Personally I would take their reaction to you knowing about the microchips and run with it - for them to change their attitude so quickly when that was mentioned I would bet they have done more than commit passport fraud..
		
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I've been wondering about this.  It's not impossible for a horse to have two microchips for valid reasons,  of course, but the reaction of the sellers is key.  Their reaction seems to show that they have committed passport fraud and thought the chip would never be scanned for. The usual reason for that would be to clock the horse as lower mileage,  like a car,  but your dentist says he's younger than 16, not older.  So the other plausible reason would be he's stolen and they know it and he needed a name change.  It might be worth spreading his picture around Facebook to as many Irish connections as possible,  and if you do return him I would do that as soon as you have their money in your bank account.  You don't need to make any accusations,  just 'does anyone know this horse?', in the hope of alerting someone who cares about him.  You could also try and trace the second chip, but people don't always update ownership.  If he is stolen,  that's the best way of getting justice for Prince. 

.


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## Red-1 (12 July 2020)

Jellymoon said:



			I actually feel really sorry for the horse and I’m surprised at the number of people telling you to send him back. Send him back to what fate I wonder? The people you bought him from sound very dodgy indeed and what do you suppose they will do with him? He’s 16 for goodness sake and clearly in some serious pain.
		
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Whilst I agree with you, if you keep him, it is simply funding another poor horse into this system. No way you can stop them all, at least this way you prevent them making a profit out of Prince and actually make them a loss by them having to pay transport. If everyone did this then they would eventually go out of business.


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## Keira 8888 (12 July 2020)

Auslander said:



			Did you log back in after months of inactivity just to bitch at the OP, because that's how it looks.

OP is devastated, and accepts that she made a mistake purchasing unseen from what sounds like a bin end dealer, who only had the horse a matter of weeks. She doesn't deserve to be patronised and made to feel guilty for not being able to cope with the behaviour the horse is demonstrating - when she made it clear to the dealer that she was looking for a safe, sensible older horse for her and her young child. The fault lies entirely with the dealer, who won't give a flying f*** about the horse, let alone be "upset and worried".

Being nasty to someone who is inexperienced, and has been taken for a ride is not ok. Save that for the people who should know better, but carry on doing wrong by their horses because they don't give a toss/are convinced they are right, despite all evidence to the contrary. OP has learned a harsh lesson, and is trying to figure out what to do to ensure this horse doesn't end up in a worse situation. Try and be nice.
		
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Thank you so much for this Auslander - I really do appreciate it. That persons post was pretty harsh - and their concept of how worried and upset the dealer must be is pretty strange!


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## lamlyn2012 (12 July 2020)

cauda equina said:



			If he's a sweet guy to handle and generally good unless ridden perhaps a bloodbank would take him
		
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This is a nice thought. I think there is an age limit though unfortunately,but it’s worth looking into.

Can you investigate the hives further?  We lost a horse with hives within two days. I’m not saying you will lose your horse, just that it may be worth looking into.

I’m sorry you are in this situation and wish you all the best with whatever you decide to do for this poor unfortunate horse.


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## MiniMilton (12 July 2020)

Wishfilly said:



			Just for my own curiosity, and feel free not to answer, but is the horse a thoroughbred and does he have a weatherbys passport? And if not, does either microchip number start with 9851010?
		
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I suspect the same as you I guess. I would think he's a TB bought for meat money and then a sporthorse passport applied for with unknown breeding. I cant think if another reason why there are 2 microchips unless he is stolen. 

OP I admire your huge heart, but as a fellow mother with children of similar ages I really can't see you ever riding that horse confidently even if you spend an absolute fortune getting him fixed (if that is even possible) 
If return is an option then please strongly consider it, and please do not let your decision be swayed by any sort of misguided guilt or pity. 

If every single buyer who gets conned by a dealer returns the horse, the dodgy dealers might eventually realise its more hassle than its worth scamming people. By taking on this horse the dealer is getting rewarded for their actions. 

The dodgy dealers in Ireland specifically targeting UK buyers drive me mad as it is just ruining the reputation for Irish sellers. It needs to stop.


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## MiniMilton (12 July 2020)

Jellymoon said:



			I actually feel really sorry for the horse and I’m surprised at the number of people telling you to send him back. Send him back to what fate I wonder? The people you bought him from sound very dodgy indeed and what do you suppose they will do with him? He’s 16 for goodness sake and clearly in some serious pain.

Yes, you did a very silly thing, you know this, but it’s not Prince’s fault.

I had a similar thing once some years ago, bought 3 connemaras unseen from Ireland, and two were fantastic. One we still have, the other was super talented and went to a lovely Eventing home, but the third poor pony was very thin and unwell with worm damage and was rather difficult to deal with. My more experienced friend told me to send him straight back, but I couldn’t, he looked so sad and worried, so I tried to get him right, but after 3 years, had to have him pts. I would never have sent him back. I didn’t pay very much for him (like you £2500) I considered him a rescue.

I think you have to deal with the situation you find yourself in for the sake of the horse. Either spend out to find out what is wrong with him, or have him pts. This really is much kinder than shipping him back to an unknown fate. Is losing £2500 going to make you destitute?
Then I would reassess. If you have a pony mad 9 yr old, you really need a nice pony. Not a 16.3 ex hunter with serious issues.
		
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If the OP has a pit of money then it's all wonderful to keep the horse to save him. But for many owning 2 horses just isn't possible and this may mean the OP can never buy another horse to ride. 

I would agree with you thoroughly though regarding the type of horse. Surely a 15h/15.2 cob type would be a better choice for a novice mother child share. If the OP returns this horse they might have a chance to get a better suited horse in the future.


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## TPO (12 July 2020)

I am normally one of the first to advocate pts for an animal in pain, dangerous or incurable/degenerative condition.

We know that this horse reared and that is far from ideal but there is no indication that this is pain related.

There could be numerous reasons:

Horse arrived in poor condition and as he is now described as looking well it's a fair assumption that he has had a lot of feed.

Horse now feeling better and will have more energy

Horse has been in a very low level of work and has been receiving additional calories

Horse hasnt had tack fitted (saddle, bridle, bit)

Horse hasnt seen dentist/physio/saddle fitter/farrier

Ulcers are very common especially in ex racers.

Horse has had a lot of upheaval in the past 3mths.

We dont even know that the horse is in any pain. Given that the basics haven't been covered it's a leap that this horse has some painful condition. 

Sending the horse back wont stop these dodgy dealer. People (all people not just OP) need to somehow be made to realise that you should have a certain level of knowledge and experience before buying a horse and therefore they would know to avoid these bottom feeding dealers. I really hope OP bought this horse off her own back and wasnt encouraged by "experienced" friends because those arent the kind of friends that you need advising you.

Personally I couldnt send a horse back to that unknown fate. There are some fairly simple things that can be addressed regarding feed & treating as an ulcer horse, MOT with dentist/farrier/therapist, giving the horse a bit of time, get an instructor for ground work and to train OP how to handle and work horse from the ground, get saddler/bit/bridle fit and then reassess having gotten to know horse better with aid of trainer/therapist. 

Literally  nothing has been tried at all and the good care has side effects like excess energy.

I dont know how long dope lasts but 3wks seems too long to me? He hacked out fine with OPand then first reared (iirc, could be wrong) with "pro" male. Who continued the ride and horse was then "easy".

It's so hard because with experience things would have been done differently and signs would have been spotted. I dont mean this cruelly but OP is an unreliable narrator because they cant know what they dont know.

I concur that it is a mess and far from ideal and I would rather pts a healthy horse than return it to dealers but literally not a single investigation has been done into this horse and even the basic management  (feed) could be addressed and provide a radical change.


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## DabDab (12 July 2020)

ycbm said:



			I've been wondering about this.  It's not impossible for a horse to have two microchips for valid reasons,  of course, but the reaction of the sellers is key.  Their reaction seems to show that they have committed passport fraud and thought the chip would never be scanned for. The usual reason for that would be to clock the horse as lower mileage,  like a car,  but your dentist says he's younger than 16, not older.  So the other plausible reason would be he's stolen and they know it and he needed a name change.  It might be worth spreading his picture around Facebook to as many Irish connections as possible,  and if you do return him I would do that as soon as you have their money in your bank account.  You don't need to make any accusations,  just 'does anyone know this horse?', in the hope of alerting someone who cares about him.  You could also try and trace the second chip, but people don't always update ownership.  If he is stolen,  that's the best way of getting justice for Prince.

.
		
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Or he was stamped up LOU and they hid it. And I think what is most likely, given their reaction, is that whatever trick their pulling, this horse is not the only one, and his double microchip could be the start of a dangerous paper trail that could get them into a lot of trouble


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## ester (12 July 2020)

But he’d be freeze marked for that?


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## be positive (12 July 2020)

DabDab said:



			Or he was stamped up LOU and they hid it. And I think what is most likely, given their reaction, is that whatever trick their pulling, this horse is not the only one, and his double microchip could be the start of a dangerous paper trail that could get them into a lot of trouble
		
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I think I would want to follow the trail, if they have covered something up that may be the best way to get it sorted out properly, if they have done something the OP can go for a refund, whether they get it or not is another matter, if the horse is LOU or possibly even declared as PTS for an insurance claim there will be records and the OP could maybe find out the history before deciding which way to go, if it is a LOU/PTS claim a refund should be forthcoming and the horse could then be pts rather than returned.

Your own insurance co may help with the microchip tracking, if the horse has been the subject of a claim it should show up, this is a bit of a risk as it will void the insurance you have but I don't think you have any chance of getting investigations done under it anyway so there is little to lose and they may well offer advice through your legal cover as to where to go next, having an insurance co behind you could help the dealer see sense.


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## Keira 8888 (12 July 2020)

DabDab said:



			Or he was stamped up LOU and they hid it. And I think what is most likely, given their reaction, is that whatever trick their pulling, this horse is not the only one, and his double microchip could be the start of a dangerous paper trail that could get them into a lot of trouble
		
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What does LOU mean DabDab?

Thanks for your reply x


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## DabDab (12 July 2020)

ester said:



			But he’d be freeze marked for that?
		
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In theory yes, but the system isn't completely air tight, and I have no idea what it is like in Ireland. It's usually a long process and and a horse can be moved on in the meantime, or the claim could be abandoned at the last minute but the passport and insurance records would already have too many indicators all over them for it to be passed off as a sound riding horse.


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## DabDab (12 July 2020)

Keira 8888 said:



			What does LOU mean DabDab?

Thanks for your reply x
		
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It's a type of insurance claim made when a horse is deemed by a vet to be unsuitable by way of injury or ailment to continue its ridden career but the horse is not pts.


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## Keira 8888 (12 July 2020)

MiniMilton said:



			If the OP has a pit of money then it's all wonderful to keep the horse to save him. But for many owning 2 horses just isn't possible and this may mean the OP can never buy another horse to ride.

I would agree with you thoroughly though regarding the type of horse. Surely a 15h/15.2 cob type would be a better choice for a novice mother child share. If the OP returns this horse they might have a chance to get a better suited horse in the future.
		
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Yes absolutely - I think a cob or a new forest pony would have been far more sensible. Oh well, lessons learnt. Now my mission is to make the RIGHT decisions moving forward, starting with Prince


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## be positive (12 July 2020)

DabDab said:



			In theory yes, but the system isn't completely air tight, and I have no idea what it is like in Ireland. It's usually a long process and and a horse can be moved on in the meantime, or the claim could be abandoned at the last minute but the passport and insurance records would already have too many indicators all over them for it to be passed off as a sound riding horse.
		
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And some people will not know what the freezemark means, I met a horse that was new to the owners which had a clear LOU mark, they had bought it for their daughter to event albeit probably very low level but they had no idea it was a LOU freezemark, I didn't know them so just suggested they looked it up rather than spoil their hopes by telling them it was probably broken, it was some time ago but I suspect there are still a few being passed on and not all LOU horses will get marked it would be easy enough to tell the insurance co it had been pts, pass on cheaply and let the dealers get a new passport, if vets are not checking properly for microchips before putting in a new one they are not doing their job properly either, to have a new passport for a 16 year old should make any decent vet suspicious.


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## Keira 8888 (12 July 2020)

UPDATE:

Thank you so much everyone for your replies and very useful opinions on what could be at the root of this double microchip situation.

Having offered me a full refund yesterday the lady then came back to me to say her boss wasn’t happy that I hadn’t mentioned the 2nd microchip soon and that she wanted to see video evidence of the horse playing up. At this point I said there is no way in hell anyone is getting on Prince again (for his sake as well as the rider) I said I have 8 eye witnesses from the village who are prepared to give written statements about what they saw - and these are all life long horse owners who had never seen a horse behave this dangerously. She then said her boss wanted to speak to me and gave me her number.
I called straight away and the boss was very focused on telling me how much I had upset her partner, and I’ve made her out to be a liar and she is terrified of me (!) I stayed very calm and said - at no point have I made ANY kind of accusation. All I did was give a faithful narrative of what has happened. Funnily enough I hadn’t even asked for a refund - I had only asked to have the contact details of the previous owner so I could try and piece together more about Princes history. It was at this point (and when I mentioned the two microchips) that they suddenly offered a full refund.

So how things have been left now - they have said they are going to keep Prince as a field ornament so he isn’t PTS. I don’t believe this much as I would like to


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## Keira 8888 (12 July 2020)

So I have a plan! I will accept the refund (I have a solicitor in Ireland ready to go) I have a lot of family in Ireland and I’m going to ask my cousin to call the stable the minute I know Prince has arrived back and buy him back, for hopefully a very small sum. My cousin has lots of land and is happy to keep him as a companion horse. Dies this sound like a good plan?


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## Meowy Catkin (12 July 2020)

Keira 8888 said:



			What does LOU mean DabDab?

Thanks for your reply x
		
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LOU = loss of use

So for example, you insure the horse as an eventer. The horse has an injury and cannot event any more but can still be ridden, so you get a 'loss of use' insurance payment as the horse now has a much lower value and cannot do the job of eventing. As the horse can still be a happy hacker it should be freeze marked to indicate it has been the subject of a LOU payment. The horse can then be sold as a happy hacker.


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## Pearlsasinger (12 July 2020)

Red-1 said:



			Whilst I agree with you, if you keep him, it is simply funding another poor horse into this system. No way you can stop them all, at least this way you prevent them making a profit out of Prince and actually make them a loss by them having to pay transport. If everyone did this then they would eventually go out of business.
		
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Which I why I would pursue the 'intent to defraud' pathway, although it might be more difficult as the dealer is in Ireland - and I don't know how the law there works.  If I were OP, I would negotiate a partial refund from the dealer, probably telling her that I had been advised topts  (regardless of what my eventual actions were), then when I had the money, I would try to find the previous registered owners via the original microchip or if that failed plaster the internet with 'do you know this horse?' type photos.


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## Pearlsasinger (12 July 2020)

I like your plan if Prince will have some equine company on your relatives' land.


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## Keira 8888 (12 July 2020)

Meowy Catkin said:



			LOU = loss of use

So for example, you insure the horse as an eventer. The horse has an injury and cannot event any more but can still be ridden, so you get a 'loss of use' insurance payment as the horse now has a much lower value and cannot do the job of eventing. As the horse can still be a happy hacker it should be freeze marked to indicate it has been the subject of a LOU payment. The horse can then be sold as a happy hacker.
		
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Ahh I see. So having had the LOU pay out the owner may then have sold Prince at an auction at which point my dealer prob picked him up for meat money and sold him on to me for thousands!


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## Keira 8888 (12 July 2020)

Winters100 said:



			Keira I am so very sorry that you are in this situation. You have nothing to be ashamed of, someone took advantage of your inexperience, but regardless most long term horse owners have at least once made a mistake and bought a horse that does not work out for one reason or other, I know that I have.  You have been doing your best to do right by him, keeping him on full livery with an experienced YO, paying for him to be ridden by an experienced rider...... we can only do our best.

I totally understand your reluctance to send him back.  I do think however that you have to accept that you and your daughter should never ride this horse again, the risk is simply too great.  At his age the chances of finding an experienced home who want to work with him is virtually 0, so if you really do not want to send him back I think your best option might be to have the vet look at him and if he is comfortable in the paddock look for someone who wants a companion horse on long term loan.  In this case I would be seriously looking at getting at least some refund from the seller.

One thing did strike me. You said "He is a different horse coming back than he is leaving."   So perhaps not pain related, but you can not be certain, as it could also just be that by this stage he has warmed up and has less pain.  The real problem is that you may never know, as if the vet finds nothing it can mean that there is either no pain, or that the source of the pain is just not discovered.  So really if you do decide to keep him do so with your eyes open and knowing that you may have a hard, and potentially expensive. road ahead.  If you send him back the dealer won't do extensive investigations, so in this case he will either be sold on or pts, probably the first of these 2 options. 

Having a paddock ornament for potentially 10+ years is an expensive business. This may be controversial, and I am sure that many people will tell you that it is your decision alone, but I would also try to discuss with your husband and agree on the course of action. A good friend of mine has an 8 year old in retirement livery, and I know that it has caused many disagreements over the years.  In my opinion it is better if he can at least feel that he has had a say.

You are not the first person to be taken advantage of in this way, so do not beat yourself up about it.  Good luck, and really I am so sorry x
		
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Thank you so much Winters - I really appreciate your lovely message. Xx


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## Meowy Catkin (12 July 2020)

Keira 8888 said:



			Ahh I see. So having had the LOU pay out the owner may then have sold Prince at an auction at which point my dealer prob picked him up for meat money and sold him on to me for thousands!
		
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If he was the subject of a LOU case he should (in theory) have the LOU freeze mark which is an L inside a circle. See pic where it is underneath the standard Farmkey four digit identity freeze mark.







If Prince doesn't have the LOU mark, then it is most likely that he isn't a LOU horse but it isn't impossible. 

Don't forget that horses get injured but as they aren't insured for LOU there will be no claim made. These horses won't be marked of course.


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## scats (12 July 2020)

Keira 8888 said:



			It started three weeks after owning him, so a week ago. I rode him in his field after a week and he was perfect. My daughter rode him too. It was only when he was taken from his field that he started to nap and act up. So the rearing started just this week x
		
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Did the rearing start when the pro rode?  I’m not saying anything against the rider, but there would be certain types of rider that one of my mares would easily rear with.  This doesn’t mean they are a bad rider, but if a horse is particularly nappy, a certain amount of pressure can easily mean they feel they have nowhere to go but up.  When my mares gets her nappy head on, if you were to simply just continue to try and force her forwards, she rears.  Yet I wouldn’t describe her as a rearer.  I know how to ride her to stop this happening but she would be absolutely lethal with the wrong rider.  I’m wondering if this is why you have had no problems riding for the last few weeks up until the pro got on.  The pro is more likely to ride the horse forwards strongly if it naps, which may well have caused this behaviour. 

Realistically, where do you go from here?  Regardless of whether this behaviour has been caused by a bit too much pressure, I’m guessing you probably don’t want to get on it again (which I understand)
As a side note, has the tack been checked and fitted properly?  A poorly fitted saddle can be tolerated for a plod around, but up the game a bit and it’s another candle lit in a chain of discomfort.

I suppose you either send the horse back and get a refund, chalk it down to inexperience and learn from this but accept that the fate of the Horse will not be in your hands.
Normally I am one who will advocate putting horses to sleep if avenues have been explored, but I would struggle to do this without some form of investigative work to find out what the cause is.  However, this will potentially cost a lot of money (do double check your insurance in this instance, many have a 3 months time frame before you can claim on anything other than accidental injuries) and obviously you have to keep a horse that you can’t ride during this time, which for a first time owner is probably not what you want to do.  You may also find that at the end of if, something is found and you have to put the horse to sleep anyway, or indeed nothing is found but you don’t feel confident enough to try and ride the horse again regardless.

I’m trying to put myself in your position and not that of someone with 30 years experience.  You are a first time owner who wants a horse to ride but you have made a mistake in the way you have purchased the horse and the horse has now behaved in a way that has scared you and a pro has advised not to ride it again.  At this moment in time, how important is the riding part to you?  Because if you intend to continue with this Horse and investigate the issues, you will find yourself without a horse to ride for the foreseeable.  If riding is really the main drive for you, and please don’t feel any shame in this if it is (I wouldn’t keep horses if I couldn’t ride, they don’t interest me as pets) then, as heartbreaking as it is, I would return the horse and get your money back.

Many of us on this forum have the experience, knowledge and facilities to take a punt on rehabbing a horse, even if the long term outcome is unknown, but we may be coming at it from the privilege of being able to run a riding horse alongside it and having a pretty good idea of the steps we would take to get to the bottom of the issue.

I fully understand that this isn’t what you signed up for and I am desperately sorry that your first step into horse ownership has gone this way.  No matter what you decide to do, you will have a lot of support from the people on here to help you along the way x


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## ester (12 July 2020)

I like the plan,
You’ve been very efficient in coming up with a plan, maybe you should offer planning skills 
I hope it works out. 

As you have a lot of horsey people in the village use them/your rider in future with regards to possibilities and contacts.


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## Keira 8888 (12 July 2020)

ester said:



			I like the plan,
You’ve been very efficient in coming up with a plan, maybe you should offer planning skills 
I hope it works out.

As you have a lot of horsey people in the village use them/your rider in future with regards to possibilities and contacts.
		
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Thank you 😊


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## Keira 8888 (12 July 2020)

scats said:



			Did the rearing start when the pro rode?  I’m not saying anything against the rider, but there would be certain types of rider that one of my mares would easily rear with.  This doesn’t mean they are a bad rider, but if a horse is particularly nappy, a certain amount of pressure can easily mean they feel they have nowhere to go but up.  When my mares gets her nappy head on, if you were to simply just continue to try and force her forwards, she rears.  Yet I wouldn’t describe her as a rearer.  I know how to ride her to stop this happening but she would be absolutely lethal with the wrong rider.  I’m wondering if this is why you have had no problems riding for the last few weeks up until the pro got on.  The pro is more likely to ride the horse forwards strongly if it naps, which may well have caused this behaviour.

Realistically, where do you go from here?  Regardless of whether this behaviour has been caused by a bit too much pressure, I’m guessing you probably don’t want to get on it again (which I understand)
As a side note, has the tack been checked and fitted properly?  A poorly fitted saddle can be tolerated for a plod around, but up the game a bit and it’s another candle lit in a chain of discomfort.

I suppose you either send the horse back and get a refund, chalk it down to inexperience and learn from this but accept that the fate of the Horse will not be in your hands.
Normally I am one who will advocate putting horses to sleep if avenues have been explored, but I would struggle to do this without some form of investigative work to find out what the cause is.  However, this will potentially cost a lot of money (do double check your insurance in this instance, many have a 3 months time frame before you can claim on anything other than accidental injuries) and obviously you have to keep a horse that you can’t ride during this time, which for a first time owner is probably not what you want to do.  You may also find that at the end of if, something is found and you have to put the horse to sleep anyway, or indeed nothing is found but you don’t feel confident enough to try and ride the horse again regardless.

I’m trying to put myself in your position and not that of someone with 30 years experience.  You are a first time owner who wants a horse to ride but you have made a mistake in the way you have purchased the horse and the horse has now behaved in a way that has scared you and a pro has advised not to ride it again.  At this moment in time, how important is the riding part to you?  Because if you intend to continue with this Horse and investigate the issues, you will find yourself without a horse to ride for the foreseeable.  If riding is really the main drive for you, and please don’t feel any shame in this if it is (I wouldn’t keep horses if I couldn’t ride, they don’t interest me as pets) then, as heartbreaking as it is, I would return the horse and get your money back.

Many of us on this forum have the experience, knowledge and facilities to take a punt on rehabbing a horse, even if the long term outcome is unknown, but we may be coming at it from the privilege of being able to run a riding horse alongside it and having a pretty good idea of the steps we would take to get to the bottom of the issue.

I fully understand that this isn’t what you signed up for and I am desperately sorry that your first step into horse ownership has gone this way.  No matter what you decide to do, you will have a lot of support from the people on here to help you along the way x
		
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Now this is very interesting... yes, it did all start with the pro rider. He was nappy being led with me - but not when ridden. Probably because I never applied any pressure and would just sit there singing to him (!!) until he got bored and decided to walk on! I would say it was far more luck though, as he did eventually de seat me with his rear and I hadn’t applied much pressure at all. X


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## CanteringCarrot (12 July 2020)

Keira 8888 said:



			So I have a plan! I will accept the refund (I have a solicitor in Ireland ready to go) I have a lot of family in Ireland and I’m going to ask my cousin to call the stable the minute I know Prince has arrived back and buy him back, for hopefully a very small sum. My cousin has lots of land and is happy to keep him as a companion horse. Dies this sound like a good plan?
		
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Honestly, no. Well, the keeping him as a field ornament sounds fine if you/your cousin have the means. I'd cut out the dealer because maybe you'll get the refund, and maybe the horse will arrive back at their yard, but how do you know they will then sell the horse to your cousin? And at a low/reasonable cost? 

If you really wanted to do right by the animal you would figure out what's actually wrong with him, pts, or give directly to your cousin. Is it a financial loss? Yes. 

I would pursue this investigation into the second microchip, however. 

The thing that irks me, and this is not personal, is that inexperienced people buy horses, often sight unseen, they arrive, something happens (too much horse, wrong feed, health issues that weren't revealed or investigated, the list goes on) and just want someone else to take care of the problem that they got themselves into. I'm not saying this is exactly what is happening in this thread, but it just bothers me when people say "I'll do right by the horse." when they actually mean "I'll do right by the horse...as long as I get my money back, I can buy another, it is convenient for me, etc."

Only you, OP, know what is within your means. Only you will ultimately decide what you'll do. No doubt it is a crap situation and I'm sorry that your experience in owning a horse has ended up this way. I can imagine that it is overwhelming.


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## CanteringCarrot (12 July 2020)

As for the pro, I do agree some "bring out the worst" in horses or push them the wrong way. However, this horse being nappy while being led in signals to me he is in pain and dreading the possibility of work. I think this is the same horse that also broke away and got loose? I could be mixing up threads here. But it seems like something is clearly bothering him. He could have a hell of an attitude, but more times than not, it is pain related.

I do admit I have a horse that plays jokes on others, as in he will make a different handler believe he cannot walk through a puddle, trot in hand, or be a productive member of society, but there is a difference between "testing" or needing a sharp handler, and a clear demonstration of resistance due to pain. No horse that isn't driven by insanity (a screw loose), a total rotten rider, or pain, WANTS to rear up, high, with a rider. When a horse loses self preservation, there is a serious issue, IMO.


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## tristar (12 July 2020)

so sorry for your problems, and poor prince in the middle of all this.

but i would be very interested to find out what happens with the micro chips, is he stolen or what is the reason for the two chips, sounds like a lot of history there


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## Keira 8888 (12 July 2020)

CanteringCarrot said:



			Honestly, no. Well, the keeping him as a field ornament sounds fine if you/your cousin have the means. I'd cut out the dealer because maybe you'll get the refund, and maybe the horse will arrive back at their yard, but how do you know they will then sell the horse to your cousin? And at a low/reasonable cost?

If you really wanted to do right by the animal you would figure out what's actually wrong with him, pts, or give directly to your cousin. Is it a financial loss? Yes.

I would pursue this investigation into the second microchip, however.

The thing that irks me, and this is not personal, is that inexperienced people buy horses, often sight unseen, they arrive, something happens (too much horse, wrong feed, health issues that weren't revealed or investigated, the list goes on) and just want someone else to take care of the problem that they got themselves into. I'm not saying this is exactly what is happening in this thread, but it just bothers me when people say "I'll do right by the horse." when they actually mean "I'll do right by the horse...as long as I get my money back, I can buy another, it is convenient for me, etc."

Only you, OP, know what is within your means. Only you will ultimately decide what you'll do. No doubt it is a crap situation and I'm sorry that your experience in owning a horse has ended up this way. I can imagine that it is overwhelming.
		
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yep, you are 100% right. Now I have gone through this it will never ever happen again though and I’m going to keep my eye on the new rider forum here so that I can spot anyone about to make the same mistake. X


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## CanteringCarrot (12 July 2020)

Keira 8888 said:



			yep, you are 100% right. Now I have gone through this it will never ever happen again though and I’m going to keep my eye on the new rider forum here so that I can spot anyone about to make the same mistake. X
		
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I will say, it's such a crap way to learn. It is good that you are learning from the experience and trying to prevent others from falling into the same trap.


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## CanteringCarrot (12 July 2020)

Not to hijack, but this could help the OP anyway, but what are legitimate reasons for a horse having 2 microchips? My not so creative brain can't think of any.


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## Meowy Catkin (12 July 2020)

CanteringCarrot said:



			No horse that isn't driven by insanity (a screw loose), a total rotten rider, or pain, WANTS to rear up, high, with a rider.
		
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I owned the exception to this but she was a very, very rare exception and her full history from birth was known. I was given her for free to be a nanny for youngstock.


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## Flame_ (12 July 2020)

CanteringCarrot said:



			No horse that isn't driven by insanity (a screw loose), a total rotten rider, or pain, WANTS to rear up, high, with a rider. When a horse loses self preservation, there is a serious issue, IMO.
		
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I don't agree. Plenty of horses with a natural inclination towards and talent for rearing manage to learn its a very effective way to evade ridden requests they're not on board with.

OP, there are loads of horses that need homes that would never vertically rear because they've got a strong pro rider on and they're unhappy, they're in a new place and unsettled, their saddle's a bit tight and they're uncomfy, etc, etc... These are your first horses - tolerant, forgiving while you're making some mistakes and not keen on over-reactions. You don't owe this horse, you've paid a lot of money to get landed with a big, expensive problem please send it back and attach to the right one.


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## ester (12 July 2020)

CanteringCarrot said:



			Not to hijack, but this could help the OP anyway, but what are legitimate reasons for a horse having 2 microchips? My not so creative brain can't think of any.
		
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I can see why if one has migrated and can’t be found but given the Vet found both that seems not to be the case here.


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## CanteringCarrot (12 July 2020)

Flame_ said:



			I don't agree. Plenty of horses with a natural inclination towards and talent for rearing manage to learn its a very effective way to evade ridden requests they're not on board with.

OP, there are loads of horses that need homes that would never vertically rear because they've got a strong pro rider on and they're unhappy, they're in a new place and unsettled, their saddle's a bit tight and they're uncomfy, etc, etc... These are your first horses - tolerant, forgiving while you're making some mistakes and not keen on over-reactions. You don't owe this horse, you've paid a lot of money to get landed with a big, expensive problem please send it back and attach to the right one.
		
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Ok, to each their own. However, if they learn its a very effective way to evade ridden requests I'd argue the rider played some role there. 

I've had a horse who popped up (very, very low) and got light in the front a time or two when I first had him as an evasion to forward because behind the leg/not respectful of forward aids, but standing all the way up to the point of potential to fall backwards with a rider, nope. Well, actually, I did have that horse too but he had a variety of health issues upon further investigation and was pts. Regardless of the reason, I think we both agree its not the right horse or situation for the OP.


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## paddy555 (12 July 2020)

Keira 8888 said:



			Now this is very interesting... yes, it did all start with the pro rider. He was nappy being led with me - but not when ridden. Probably because I never applied any pressure and would just sit there singing to him (!!) until he got bored and decided to walk on! I would say it was far more luck though, as he did eventually de seat me with his rear and I hadn’t applied much pressure at all. X
		
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having read your comments on this thread and some of your earlier threads I am a bit astounded. A perfectly nice old horse has gone from lovely to possibly even kissing spines on this thread in 3 weeks.

Re your point about sending him back and your relation buying him for very little. If you send him back to a dealer he will sell him for the same amount you paid and then in a few weeks time we will have another new owner on here with identical problems about this particular horse. The dealer is not going to sell him for peanuts nor to retire him. For the double microchip our vet always scans the whole horse before chipping so perhaps they simply didn't find the first chip when they put the 2nd one in. 

You seem to have gone in 3 weeks from having an older horse shipped over from Ireland where it seems to have been in other homes in relatively quick succession and now in yet another home, to the horse pulling back and getting loose when tied up,  to you riding it calmly, to a lovely pic with your daughter of a lovely horse, to having an allergic reaction, to potential alfalfa problems, underweight and being fed, hives, doesn't want to come out of the field, naps, rears and whatever else I have missed.

On 4th July you wrote you rode and had a nice time now it is only 8 days later and this.

For heaven's sake slow down. This horse has had his entire life changed in a very short time. I got my latest new horse, also 16, last Christmas. He was great leading out the first day. Walked beautifully, 3 weeks later I could hardly get him to move under saddle and he wouldn't even lead 100 yards down the road to the mounting block. He did what every new horse does to it's new owner. Tried it on. I have had  many new horses and was well aware that the fun and games would start at some stage. The horse just let himself down badly. He was walking and rode perfectly for the first couple of days. Nothing medically wrong with him.

Yours started napping when leaving the field. Is this any more than just trying it on and testing his new owner? That would be my interpretation of it.
He was underweight and you started feeding him, also gave him something with alfalfa in it then rode and expected a quiet little horse. No, he was starting to feel better and going to show it. Bit more energy.

He got hives, an allergic reaction bumps along his neck, tummy ad legs. I wouldn't be riding a horse with hives full stop. More important to find out why. If the hives were along his tummy did the girth impinge on one, even one you couldn't see. Were the hives making him very tetchy and so he was going to take it out on someone?

Several pages ago someone asked about crab flies? Has this been investigated. That is one of the first places I would start looking for the allergic reaction. We have crabs here. My horse got one last month. He is a very thin skinned part TB aged 15. He came straight at me to try and get it off him and chased  me when I tried to get away. He was beyond any sort of reasoning and totally dangerous. Crab flies can affect some horses terribly. 

I gather you started riding him, he was fine, got a bit nappy and you were very quiet with him. He didn't rear or do anything terrible. Was he just trying it on to see what the new owner would do very probably. Possibly if you had carried on like that you would both have worked your way through it. He would have carried on napping for a while and you would gently have persuaded him to give in. It would have worked out. 

You got your yard pro to ride him. Was he harder? went in with the attitude when the horse stopped "right get a bliddy move on" and made him? So a horse that was gentle, sensitive and enjoying playing YOU up suddenly went to being a resentful horse when being made to go? lack of tact perhaps? Pro rode more strongly, horse really said "sod off"  You rode and were just on the tail end of this when the horse reared. The horse may have  history of being harshly ridden and remembered it. 
Was this horse a rearer before this started or have hard feed, hives and a harsh approach caused the rear.


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## Pinkvboots (12 July 2020)

One of my horses has a strong napping sense, if ridden by a new strong rider his go to is run backwards and lift his front feet off the ground never a big rear, I ride him most of the time but I am quite a soft quiet rider his used to me and I know what upsets him and provokes that behaviour so I ride him sympathetically.

Prince has been shipped to a strange place where he knows no one, if he was a bit poor he would be lacking in energy so his probably feeling much better and stronger the pro probably put him under pressure that he wasn't happy with, it's quite a lot for a horse to cope with, cut out hard feed just feed hay and grass and see how you go.


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## Emilieu (12 July 2020)

You sound like a lovely person and a dedicated owner, I’m so sorry your horse owning life has started like this. Honestly, I would have a vet check him and unless there is something screamingly obviously wrong and easy to sort, I would send him straight to live at your cousin’s place. You know the saying about throwing good money after bad? I think trying to sort out all the possible things that might be wrong with poor Prince might very soon start to feel like that. I would write off the cost of purchase and start saving for a safe as houses horse for you and your children to enjoy. Regardless of what is found or not found you will never feel safe putting your child on him now, and cannot in good conscience allow him to be passed on to another family. Reading the thread I was thinking PTS (although knowing in my heart of hearts that I would be unable in real life to follow my own sensible advice!) but now that you mention your cousin could have him that seems ideal. Good luck.


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## Chuffy99 (12 July 2020)

So from sympathising most of you are now trying to send the OP on a guilt trip, why are you trying to talk her into having expensive vet examinations for a horse she should NEVER get on again. The horse probably isn’t a rogue but she bought him in good faith albeit naively but he should be returned as he is not as described. Dodgy dealers rely on heartstrings.


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## Keira 8888 (12 July 2020)

paddy555 said:



			having read your comments on this thread and some of your earlier threads I am a bit astounded. A perfectly nice old horse has gone from lovely to possibly even kissing spines on this thread in 3 weeks.

Re your point about sending him back and your relation buying him for very little. If you send him back to a dealer he will sell him for the same amount you paid and then in a few weeks time we will have another new owner on here with identical problems about this particular horse. The dealer is not going to sell him for peanuts nor to retire him. For the double microchip our vet always scans the whole horse before chipping so perhaps they simply didn't find the first chip when they put the 2nd one in.

You seem to have gone in 3 weeks from having an older horse shipped over from Ireland where it seems to have been in other homes in relatively quick succession and now in yet another home, to the horse pulling back and getting loose when tied up,  to you riding it calmly, to a lovely pic with your daughter of a lovely horse, to having an allergic reaction, to potential alfalfa problems, underweight and being fed, hives, doesn't want to come out of the field, naps, rears and whatever else I have missed.

On 4th July you wrote you rode and had a nice time now it is only 8 days later and this.

For heaven's sake slow down. This horse has had his entire life changed in a very short time. I got my latest new horse, also 16, last Christmas. He was great leading out the first day. Walked beautifully, 3 weeks later I could hardly get him to move under saddle and he wouldn't even lead 100 yards down the road to the mounting block. He did what every new horse does to it's new owner. Tried it on. I have had  many new horses and was well aware that the fun and games would start at some stage. The horse just let himself down badly. He was walking and rode perfectly for the first couple of days. Nothing medically wrong with him.

Yours started napping when leaving the field. Is this any more than just trying it on and testing his new owner? That would be my interpretation of it.
He was underweight and you started feeding him, also gave him something with alfalfa in it then rode and expected a quiet little horse. No, he was starting to feel better and going to show it. Bit more energy.

He got hives, an allergic reaction bumps along his neck, tummy ad legs. I wouldn't be riding a horse with hives full stop. More important to find out why. If the hives were along his tummy did the girth impinge on one, even one you couldn't see. Were the hives making him very tetchy and so he was going to take it out on someone?

Several pages ago someone asked about crab flies? Has this been investigated. That is one of the first places I would start looking for the allergic reaction. We have crabs here. My horse got one last month. He is a very thin skinned part TB aged 15. He came straight at me to try and get it off him and chased  me when I tried to get away. He was beyond any sort of reasoning and totally dangerous. Crab flies can affect some horses terribly.

I gather you started riding him, he was fine, got a bit nappy and you were very quiet with him. He didn't rear or do anything terrible. Was he just trying it on to see what the new owner would do very probably. Possibly if you had carried on like that you would both have worked your way through it. He would have carried on napping for a while and you would gently have persuaded him to give in. It would have worked out.

You got your yard pro to ride him. Was he harder? went in with the attitude when the horse stopped "right get a bliddy move on" and made him? So a horse that was gentle, sensitive and enjoying playing YOU up suddenly went to being a resentful horse when being made to go? lack of tact perhaps? Pro rode more strongly, horse really said "sod off"  You rode and were just on the tail end of this when the horse reared. The horse may have  history of being harshly ridden and remembered it.
Was this horse a rearer before this started or have hard feed, hives and a harsh approach caused the rear.
		
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Well the thing is - it wasnt that he changed from being “a lovely old horse” to a monster. It was the fact that his reactions changed as we started to introduce new things. I didn’t ride him for quite a long time and took things very slowly. I often just sat with him in his field reading my book and watching him. People on the yard then worried that I wasn’t doing enough - especially based on him having the hard feed too which is why I started to introduce visits to the yard and riding. I did query whether he needed hard feed but more experienced people than me said he definitely needed building up.

I was prepared for the crab flies having researched them. He had a full fly mask from the beginning and I then introduced a fly rug and boots. I put sudocrem on his sheath and sensitive areas and this was very effective. He dealt with them very well after a while.
In terms of dealing with the hives - I got the vet straight out. He had a steroid shot, I researched feed and without the vet even picking up on it being a feed problem I identified that alfalfa could well be the culprit. I fenced off the oak tree in his field in case it was an oak allergy. The vet said that it didn’t look like a response to fly bites.

Now in terms of taking things slowly - if it were just me that I had to think of - I would have all the time and patience in the world.

But I have my daughter to think about and it ultimately comes down to a choice between her or Prince. I cannot take the chance that Prince will one day do this with her.
I have made many mistakes in this horse ownership journey. But I promise you, I have tried to do the right thing by Prince ever since he arrived in terms of his health and quickly reacting to changes in his behaviour.

You are right - a lot has changed in a very short space of time. But I don’t think I have exacerbated any of these changes with the decisions I have made. A more experienced person than myself suggested the HiFi and pasture cubes.
I am certainly guilty of buying unseen. But I do believe I have acted as diligently as possible since. X


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## Mikas-mom (12 July 2020)

I’ve Been following your progress with Prince since your first thread, so I’m really sorry to be reading this now  
you’ve done you’re best for Prince but sadly this has shown that he’s quite obviously NOT the right horse for you and your daughter. As you and others have said, you have to put yours and your daughters safety first.
you Need to take a step back and look at this with your head rather than your heart. 
if when you saw Prince advertised the ad had said that he could possibly rear, would you have even considered buying him? I’m guessing the answer would have been 10000% NO!
you were looking for a safe first horse Who you and your daughter could enjoy, so of course you wouldn’t have contemplated buying a horse that could possibly rear (not to mention all the other little niggles that you’ve had with him)
whilst keeping him and trying to ‘fix’ him may be what your heart is telling you, it’s a huge undertaking for the more experienced owner, let alone a first time novice, so I genuinely think you should really think about that before even contemplating it. As others have said it could We’ll be a very lengthy process with no great outcome.
as much as it may pain you, I think for YOU the best thing would be to send the horse back and get your refund, that can then go towards a nice safe hack that you and your daughter can enjoy, which at the end of the day is why you bought a horse in the first place.
as much as we’d all love to ’fix’ every broken horse we come across, it’s just not possible.
it will take a bit of time for you to get your heart in sync with your head, but returning him would be the best thing for YOU xx


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## splashgirl45 (12 July 2020)

i agree keira,  you made a mistake but have treated the horse with the best that you could.  i think you should send him back as long as you get a full refund, and dont let go of him until you do..  it is easy for people not in your position to say they wouldnt send him back , and if money was no problem or you had your own place i am sure you would keep him as a field ornament...but life is not that simple for most of us... it may be worth finding out if he is an ex racer , not sure if you can find out from the microchip but worth a try before you let go of him ...hope all this can soon be sorted out and you can come to terms with it as you sound like a very caring person and i am sad that you have been duped this way


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## planete (12 July 2020)

The bottom line is that this horse rears in a dangerous manner when he deems it necessary for whatever reason.  I am sure he has his reasons but it just makes him an unsuitable horse for a mother/daughter combination who are not professionals. A less reactive horse would plant, do half rears, buck a bit...not put his life and his rider's on the line. Ordinary riders should not be exposed to an animal that is too sensitive, sploit, dangerously quirky or in major pain. I am really sorry for you OP.  You have been taken advantage of and now have a major problem on your hands.  I am trying to put myself in your shoes but, being an old cynic, I am afraid I would take the refund and wash my hands of the whole mess.  If you keep him at your cousin's, are you prepared for years of expenses beyond his grass keep?  Even kept at grass, horses cost a lot in foot trimming, vaccinations, field accidents, winter feed, etc.. You are putting a millstone around your neck.  If you start investigations and getting professionals involved, the sky will be the limit  money wise.  If you have him pts will you always wonder whether you did the right thing?  Send him back, and if you feel you must, make discreet enquiries about the dealer's dodgy practices so there may be a chance of stopping them one day.  You cannot be the only victim of these people.


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## indie1282 (12 July 2020)

paddy555 said:



			having read your comments on this thread and some of your earlier threads I am a bit astounded. A perfectly nice old horse has gone from lovely to possibly even kissing spines on this thread in 3 weeks.

Re your point about sending him back and your relation buying him for very little. If you send him back to a dealer he will sell him for the same amount you paid and then in a few weeks time we will have another new owner on here with identical problems about this particular horse. The dealer is not going to sell him for peanuts nor to retire him. For the double microchip our vet always scans the whole horse before chipping so perhaps they simply didn't find the first chip when they put the 2nd one in.

You seem to have gone in 3 weeks from having an older horse shipped over from Ireland where it seems to have been in other homes in relatively quick succession and now in yet another home, to the horse pulling back and getting loose when tied up,  to you riding it calmly, to a lovely pic with your daughter of a lovely horse, to having an allergic reaction, to potential alfalfa problems, underweight and being fed, hives, doesn't want to come out of the field, naps, rears and whatever else I have missed.

On 4th July you wrote you rode and had a nice time now it is only 8 days later and this.

For heaven's sake slow down. This horse has had his entire life changed in a very short time. I got my latest new horse, also 16, last Christmas. He was great leading out the first day. Walked beautifully, 3 weeks later I could hardly get him to move under saddle and he wouldn't even lead 100 yards down the road to the mounting block. He did what every new horse does to it's new owner. Tried it on. I have had  many new horses and was well aware that the fun and games would start at some stage. The horse just let himself down badly. He was walking and rode perfectly for the first couple of days. Nothing medically wrong with him.

Yours started napping when leaving the field. Is this any more than just trying it on and testing his new owner? That would be my interpretation of it.
He was underweight and you started feeding him, also gave him something with alfalfa in it then rode and expected a quiet little horse. No, he was starting to feel better and going to show it. Bit more energy.

He got hives, an allergic reaction bumps along his neck, tummy ad legs. I wouldn't be riding a horse with hives full stop. More important to find out why. If the hives were along his tummy did the girth impinge on one, even one you couldn't see. Were the hives making him very tetchy and so he was going to take it out on someone?

Several pages ago someone asked about crab flies? Has this been investigated. That is one of the first places I would start looking for the allergic reaction. We have crabs here. My horse got one last month. He is a very thin skinned part TB aged 15. He came straight at me to try and get it off him and chased  me when I tried to get away. He was beyond any sort of reasoning and totally dangerous. Crab flies can affect some horses terribly.

I gather you started riding him, he was fine, got a bit nappy and you were very quiet with him. He didn't rear or do anything terrible. Was he just trying it on to see what the new owner would do very probably. Possibly if you had carried on like that you would both have worked your way through it. He would have carried on napping for a while and you would gently have persuaded him to give in. It would have worked out.

You got your yard pro to ride him. Was he harder? went in with the attitude when the horse stopped "right get a bliddy move on" and made him? So a horse that was gentle, sensitive and enjoying playing YOU up suddenly went to being a resentful horse when being made to go? lack of tact perhaps? Pro rode more strongly, horse really said "sod off"  You rode and were just on the tail end of this when the horse reared. The horse may have  history of being harshly ridden and remembered it.
Was this horse a rearer before this started or have hard feed, hives and a harsh approach caused the rear.
		
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I agree with the above. Firstly if you think that the dealer is going to keep him and turn him out as a field ornament then you are dreaming I'm afraid. They will resell him to someone else for the full price.

I also think alot has happened in a very short space of time. The horse was poor when you bought him and you fed him up so now he is feeling better, he has had time off while you waited for a saddler I believe? Now he has hives and you are still trying to ride him?

If you like the horse and you want to keep him I would take him off all feed and just give him grass and hay, sort out the hives then turn him away for a month. Then I would either send him to a pro or get one to come out to you and see what they think.

I think having him pts is a bit extreme considering that this horse hasn't even been given a chance to have a proper work up.

I think that this is not the horse for you and in your shoes I would return him and get your refund.

Can I ask why you decided to buy a 16hh TB unseen from Ireland as your 1st horse?


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## Gingerwitch (12 July 2020)

Can you not agree with the dealer to refund half his value, then PTS the poor lad ? I mean this in the nicest way, I assume you paid 2500 for him, did this include shipping ? Keeping a horse on full livery is what 600 a month, so to do the right thing by Prince is either going to cost 2 months full livery or 4 months if they won't refund.  For me personally I could not morally send him back and would take the hit just for my piece of mind.


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## Mikas-mom (12 July 2020)

It’s all well and good people telling Keira that they wouldn’t send the horse back and would rather lose the money etc etc. But we all have to look at this realistically.
£2500 is a lot of money to just throw away, especially given the state of the country right now. And while I agree that most of us would just love to keep the horse and either get full vets Work ups or retire him to the field or whatever, that’s not being realistic.
shes had this horse for just 4 weeks, she admittedly made a mistake in buying him (havent we all done that at some point?) and now she’s left with a horse that’s not safe for her to ride. 
if it was a car with faulty brakes for example we wouldn’t be telling her to park it in the garage and enjoy looking at it would we!
this horse needs to be returned to the dealer and she needs to get a refund. He’s not fit for purpose.
we can’t keep every horse we ever take on, and have to do things sometimes that we don’t like. That’s horse ownership for you.


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## indie1282 (12 July 2020)

Mikas-mom said:



			It’s all well and good people telling Keira that they wouldn’t send the horse back and would rather lose the money etc etc. But we all have to look at this realistically.
£2500 is a lot of money to just throw away, especially given the state of the country right now. And while I agree that most of us would just love to keep the horse and either get full vets Work ups or retire him to the field or whatever, that’s not being realistic.
shes had this horse for just 4 weeks, she admittedly made a mistake in buying him (havent we all done that at some point?) and now she’s left with a horse that’s not safe for her to ride.
if it was a car with faulty brakes for example we wouldn’t be telling her to park it in the garage and enjoy looking at it would we!
this horse needs to be returned to the dealer and she needs to get a refund. He’s not fit for purpose.
we can’t keep every horse we ever take on, and have to do things sometimes that we don’t like. That’s horse ownership for you.
		
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I dont really think you can compare a horse to a car though....if a cars breaks are dodgy then its pretty easy to spot and fix the problem where as its not quite so easy with a living animal....


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## Mikas-mom (12 July 2020)

of Course not! I was just giving an example, maybe a bad one though.
what I was trying to get across is that this horse is not fit for the purpose it was bought for.


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## TPO (12 July 2020)

Chuffy99 said:



			So from sympathising most of you are now trying to send the OP on a guilt trip, why are you trying to talk her into having expensive vet examinations for a horse she should NEVER get on again. The horse probably isn’t a rogue but she bought him in good faith albeit naively but he should be returned as he is not as described. Dodgy dealers rely on heartstrings.
		
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Not trying to talk anyone into anything. It wouldn't be advised for anyone, let alone a complete novice first time buyer, to buy a horse unseen from Ireland. As an aside the fact that there are so many older exracers available over here I cant understand any temptation at all to buy one unseen from Ireland.

However what is done is done. In my eyes when you take ownership of any animal you become responsible for them.

As pointed out several times the absolute basics haven't been covered regarding horses welfare (farrier/dentist/physio/saddle fitter). Horse has (painful?) hives and is tacked up/girthed and ridden. The horse arrived in poor condition so even if the saddle did fit perfectly 4wks ago it is unlikely to now given the change in condition/shape.

I appreciate the value of money and that the seller was dishonest. I cant imagine returning a horse to the fate we all know will happen...being sold on again after yet more upheaval. So back to my original point, when you buy any animal you assume full responsibility. The seller might or might not be telling their version of the truth but its buyer beware. 

Any buyer can view, try and vet a horse and therefore protect themself somewhat and make informed decisions regarding the purchase. When buying unseen you are taking a punt and have to deal with the consequences; these are the consequences. I've bought unseen (long story) and a malnourished skeleton arrived, not for one second would he have been going back.

On a further tangent I find the full refund hard to believe. They are going to fully refund and pay for the transportation back to Ireland? The police are stretched as it is, I cant see them pursuing possibly dodgy dealers in Ireland?

I feel heart sorry for Prince. Even if the implausible plan of him living in a field in ireland were to happen IF there is something underlying then turning him away to rot in a field isnt necessarily a kindness either for an older TB. 

Ugg, whole thing is a mess bowing out because I've already said that I think the very basics should be covered and a proper professional trainer involved. I just hope its resolved in Prince's best interests.


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## TPO (12 July 2020)

Mikas-mom said:



			of Course not! I was just giving an example, maybe a bad one though.
what I was trying to get across is that this horse is not fit for the purpose it was bought for.
		
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Pays your money, takes you chance. The joys of buying unseen 😏


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## splashgirl45 (12 July 2020)

it does not help for people to say that they would keep the horse,  the OP feels bad enough and none of us know her financial situation nd these posts are not helping her to make any sort of decision, just making her feel even worse than she does.  from her posts she sounds like a very caring person who is going through hell trying to decide what to do.  there are enough posts stating different options and she needs to think everything out for herself now..


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## Mikas-mom (12 July 2020)

TPO said:



			Pays your money, takes you chance. The joys of buying unseen 😏
		
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completely agree, which is why I personally would NEVER buy a ridden horse unseen (have bought youngsters unseen but only from reputable breeder)
its my understanding (and I could be wrong here) that the OP HAS had vets/back/feet/saddle etc checked...
I obv put a very bad example out earlier, but my brain is a bit like mush right now.
i was trying to get the point across that Prince ISN’T the right horse for the OP. She could spend ££££ trying to find out the cause of his pain/issues with no joy at the end of it all. People telling her that they wouldn’t send him back is Not helpful IMO. 
as I said this is a heart v head decision....


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## indie1282 (12 July 2020)

Mikas-mom said:



			completely agree, which is why I personally would NEVER buy a ridden horse unseen (have bought youngsters unseen but only from reputable breeder)
its my understanding (and I could be wrong here) that the OP HAS had vets/back/feet/saddle etc checked...
I obv put a very bad example out earlier, but my brain is a bit like mush right now.
i was trying to get the point across that Prince ISN’T the right horse for the OP. She could spend ££££ trying to find out the cause of his pain/issues with no joy at the end of it all. People telling her that they wouldn’t send him back is Not helpful IMO.
as I said this is a heart v head decision....
		
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Or she could take the horse off all feeds, sort the hives out and then reassess? The horse has been fine for 3 weeks but now is rearing. He has hives which could be painful, they could be under his girth and sore. He is on Alfalfa which has been proven to send horses loopy. The pro that rode him might belong to the school of ' you WILL do what you are told' and the horse if sore or uncomfortable might rear in protest. 

FWIW I would support the decision to send him back to the dealers. But like I said earlier, dont believe for one minute that this horse will live out in a field for the rest of his day's- he will be resold again.


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## paddy555 (12 July 2020)

Keira 8888 said:



			Well the thing is - it wasnt that he changed from being “a lovely old horse” to a monster. It was the fact that his reactions changed as we started to introduce new things. I didn’t ride him for quite a long time and took things very slowly. I often just sat with him in his field reading my book and watching him. People on the yard then worried that I wasn’t doing enough - especially based on him having the hard feed too which is why I started to introduce visits to the yard and riding. I did query whether he needed hard feed but more experienced people than me said he definitely needed building up.

I was prepared for the crab flies having researched them. He had a full fly mask from the beginning and I then introduced a fly rug and boots. I put sudocrem on his sheath and sensitive areas and this was very effective. He dealt with them very well after a while.
In terms of dealing with the hives - I got the vet straight out. He had a steroid shot, I researched feed and without the vet even picking up on it being a feed problem I identified that alfalfa could well be the culprit. I fenced off the oak tree in his field in case it was an oak allergy. The vet said that it didn’t look like a response to fly bites.

Now in terms of taking things slowly - if it were just me that I had to think of - I would have all the time and patience in the world.

But I have my daughter to think about and it ultimately comes down to a choice between her or Prince. I cannot take the chance that Prince will one day do this with her.
I have made many mistakes in this horse ownership journey. But I promise you, I have tried to do the right thing by Prince ever since he arrived in terms of his health and quickly reacting to changes in his behaviour.

You are right - a lot has changed in a very short space of time. But I don’t think I have exacerbated any of these changes with the decisions I have made. A more experienced person than myself suggested the HiFi and pasture cubes.
I am certainly guilty of buying unseen. But I do believe I have acted as diligently as possible since. X
		
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I am not criticising your management of him nor am I suggesting whether you should send him back I am trying to point out different reasons for his behaviour.
As you say a lot has changed in a very short space of time. Give him a chance to adjust. Give any new horse a chance to adjust.
He is a little underweight. He probably needed building up but what is the logic in giving a horse who is new and you have not ridden (or hardly ridden) hard feed which will not only build him up but give him more energy when you want him as calm and quiet as possible so you can start to ride him and get him over the initial and inevitable napping phase?
Re the hives I am not saying you ignored them, you clearly didn't. However for some reason he got an allergic reaction to something. Until that is sorted he would have best been left unridden. Why ride him? If alfalfa caused it he needs longer than a couple of days off it to see if it is the cause and to get it out of his system. Hives needs time to get sorted, to find the reason and to eliminate it. You cannot rush things which in all honesty I think you have been doing. There is no timetable. He is a horse. Things move at the best pace for him.

People on your yard were worried you were not doing enough. So what. He is your horse and up to you and no one else as to how fast or slow you wanted to take things.

I am not suggesting you have failed to behave diligently but that you have gone far too fast for this horse especially when the hives problem is taken into account. I am also wondering if this horse actually had a problem or if he has been put into this position by the riding pushing him when perhaps a more sensitive rider would have worked out better.

If you get rid of him somehow and get another horse then, unless you slow down, give a new horse time and realise that there will be problems I cannot see that working out either. They are not machines. For many new horses it can take up to 6 months for them to settle. Some even longer. He has had around 3 weeks.

I am not clear if this horse is actually a rearer or one that has simply been put into this position.


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## paddy555 (12 July 2020)

indie1282 said:



			Or she could take the horse off all feeds, sort the hives out and then reassess? The horse has been fine for 3 weeks but now is rearing. He has hives which could be painful, they could be under his girth and sore. He is on Alfalfa which has been proven to send horses loopy. The pro that rode him might belong to the school of ' you WILL do what you are told' and the horse if sore or uncomfortable might rear in protest.

FWIW I would support the decision to send him back to the dealers. But like I said earlier, dont believe for one minute that this horse will live out in a field for the rest of his day's- he will be resold again.
		
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totally agree. If the hives were painful and he is still ridden he has to protest somehow, you cannot expect him to  just put up with it.


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## ester (12 July 2020)

I did wonder about the crabs, having seen a horse totally loose it's shit over them (we were on the edge of range for them) to the point that the only thing that could be done was to hose the whole horse down in the hope of dislodging them.


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## splashgirl45 (12 July 2020)

paddy555 said:



			I am not criticising your management of him nor am I suggesting whether you should send him back I am trying to point out different reasons for his behaviour.
As you say a lot has changed in a very short space of time. Give him a chance to adjust. Give any new horse a chance to adjust.
He is a little underweight. He probably needed building up but what is the logic in giving a horse who is new and you have not ridden (or hardly ridden) hard feed which will not only build him up but give him more energy when you want him as calm and quiet as possible so you can start to ride him and get him over the initial and inevitable napping phase?
Re the hives I am not saying you ignored them, you clearly didn't. However for some reason he got an allergic reaction to something. Until that is sorted he would have best been left unridden. Why ride him? If alfalfa caused it he needs longer than a couple of days off it to see if it is the cause and to get it out of his system. Hives needs time to get sorted, to find the reason and to eliminate it. You cannot rush things which in all honesty I think you have been doing. There is no timetable. He is a horse. Things move at the best pace for him.

People on your yard were worried you were not doing enough. So what. He is your horse and up to you and no one else as to how fast or slow you wanted to take things.

I am not suggesting you have failed to behave diligently but that you have gone far too fast for this horse especially when the hives problem is taken into account. I am also wondering if this horse actually had a problem or if he has been put into this position by the riding pushing him when perhaps a more sensitive rider would have worked out better.

If you get rid of him somehow and get another horse then, unless you slow down, give a new horse time and realise that there will be problems I cannot see that working out either. They are not machines. For many new horses it can take up to 6 months for them to settle. Some even longer. He has had around 3 weeks.

I am not clear if this horse is actually a rearer or one that has simply been put into this position.
		
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what you are saying is of no help now,  the horse is not suitable for a novice first time owner,  yes those of us who have been around horses for many years would be able to read the horse and know what to do and when.  the poster  has been advised by more experienced people on her yard and has done what she had been told.  in hindsight she should not have upped his feed,  the people on her yard should have not given her that advice.  she has had the vet out to the horse and has done the best she can ...she is now not confident with the horse, so no amount of changing management is going to make this a partnership...its sad for both the horse and the owner and if i had my own land and wads of money i  would love to be able to help her with him by getting all the checks done and working with him to make him a happy horse, but this is the real world ..


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## indie1282 (12 July 2020)

ester said:



			I did wonder about the crabs, having seen a horse totally loose it's shit over them (we were on the edge of range for them) to the point that the only thing that could be done was to hose the whole horse down in the hope of dislodging them.
		
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I would lose my shit over crab flies too!! I have never heard of them until I read about them on here then I googled them. HOLY COW they sound horrendous!!! One of my horses would go absolutely loco if he had one of those on him, he goes batshit if he has a horse fly land on him.


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## ycbm (12 July 2020)

paddy555 said:



			Give him a chance to adjust. Give any new horse a chance to adjust... inevitable napping phase... You cannot rush things which in all honesty I think you have been doing.. you have gone far too fast for this horse... For many new horses it can take up to 6 months for them to settle.
		
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Most people who buy a new horse ride it the day it arrives or the following day and get it straight into the routine is going to be living in.  Napping is not inevitable, it's common but not common enough to be classed as normal.

This is not a time,  surely,  to be making the OP feel any worse,  particularly as she took advice from an experienced yard owner?

.


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## [131452] (12 July 2020)

I could not send him back.
The dealer will do any of the following things :
Shoot him 
Send him to a death from hell in a slaughterhouse 
Beat him into submission 
Medicate and sell him.


I could not knowingly put an animal into that situation,  it doesn't matter how much money I would lose.
If your cousin can have him in the field,  why not just let them have him? 
You will save the money in not paying livery and training etc so will have saved up the purchase price soon enough.

That is what i would do.


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## Mikas-mom (12 July 2020)

I really feel for Keira and Prince with all this mess. At the end of the day she (mistakenly) bought a horse who she was led to believe was suitable. As most have said, a more knowledgeable person wouldn’t have done things the way she did, but hey ho, what’s done is done, she can’t change the past.
as far as I know from reading her other threads, Keira has done her best to do right by Prince, including having the vets out, feet done, saddle checked, feed changes etc etc.
she is a novice first time owner and has been going on advice (whether right advice or wrong advice we don’t know as we don’t know all the ins and outs) that should be applauded as not many people would be so conscientious, Instead thinking they know best.
Yes, Prince has had A LOT of change in a short amount of time, and as most of us know it can take months, if not years for a horse to settle into a new home, some never do.
keira could now do things In so many different ways. She could go down the vets work out route, she could retire Prince as a field pet, she could go back to basics, stop all hard feed, try to get to the root cause of the hives...etc etc.

but what a lot of you seem to be forgetting is that she bought Prince so she and her daughter could ride him and enjoy him. Right now she’s clearly not able to do that, and probably won’t be able to until the cause of his hives/rearing/napping are found and sorted. If at all
she didn’t sign up for that.

as she bought from a dealer she has a limited amount of time to return the horse, so those telling her to give him time need to really think about that. its all well and good giving him time (as most of us more experienced owners would do) but then she may be stuck with a horse who she cannot ride and cannot return.
of course I think none of us are under any illusions of what will happen to Prince. I don’t think any of us think he will be retired to live out his days, but that’s not something that should be out on Keira’s head.
its a sad fact that dealers like this exist, but they do, and while ever they do, horses like this are going to be passed around 

Keira needs to do whats right for her and her daughter, and if that means sending Prince back to the dealer, sadly I have to say so be it. As I said before, we can’t save every horse, and in all reality not all of us can afford more than one horse Or lose the initial outlay.

she needs to take her heart out of the equation and use her head as hard as it will Be


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## ycbm (12 July 2020)

CanteringCarrot said:



			Not to hijack, but this could help the OP anyway, but what are legitimate reasons for a horse having 2 microchips? My not so creative brain can't think of any.
		
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Not all chips can be read by all readers,  especially continental ones, but some will.  

Not all readers will have the power to pick up a fading chip, but some will. 

Some chips can only be read intermittently/ some readers only read intermittently. 

All those could cause a situation where a horse with no passport can't be traced to get a new passport issued and will end up with two chips and two passports  one lost.  

I had forgotten about the ex racer scam. It used to be rife in the UK but passports and chipping  pretty much stopped it.  Given the reaction of the seller,  I'm thinking you may have stumbled into a production line of buying ex racers and repassporting them as sports horses.  It would be well worth contacting the Irish equivalent of Wetherbys with the chip number,  because all racehorses have only one passport issuing authority,  and that one trace would be easy.  

.


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## Wishfilly (12 July 2020)

CanteringCarrot said:



			Not to hijack, but this could help the OP anyway, but what are legitimate reasons for a horse having 2 microchips? My not so creative brain can't think of any.
		
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Sometimes a microchip will stop working, and therefore the horse is re-chipped. 

Some vets are not always very thorough when scanning for the microchip (they can sometimes move, or may have been put in in the wrong place), and they re-chip the horse when the original microchip still works. This also used to happen with horses born before 2009, as people would sometimes assume they hadn't been microchipped. In these cases you can end up with a horse with two working microchips. It's not ideal, but there's no malice intended in it. In theory, due to the 2018 changes to the law this should be rarer now, but it's still not impossible. 

In these cases, both chips should be listed in the passport. If a horse has two chips and one isn't listed in the passport, that would be a red flag to me (I'm not saying it would always be dodgy, but I'd want to check out both chips and the histories of them if I could).


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## splashgirl45 (12 July 2020)

ycbm said:



			Not all chips can be read by all readers,  especially continental ones, but some will. 

Not all readers will have the power to pick up a fading chip, but some will.

Some chips can only be read intermittently/ some readers only read intermittently.

All those could cause a situation where a horse with no passport can't be traced to get a new passport issued and will end up with two chips and two passports  one lost. 

I had forgotten about the ex racer scam. It used to be rife in the UK but passports and chipping  pretty much stopped it.  Given the reaction of the seller,  I'm thinking you may have stumbled into a production line of buying ex racers and repassporting them as sports horses.  It would be well worth contacting the Irish equivalent of Wetherbys with the chip number,  because all racehorses have only one passport issuing authority,  and that one trace would be easy. 

.
		
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thats what i was thinking about ex racers, also if he was maybe someone attached to the owner or trainer would be prepared to buy him and give him a nice retirement..


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## Old school (12 July 2020)

Kiera, you have my complete sympathy and are in an exhausting situation. I feel for you as you have the opinions of the horsey villagers, YO, this forum and now mine rattling around in your head. On top of that an unhappy spouse. I really feel you are drowning in this situtation. Many of us have bought horses - trialled and vetted, to find that they actually are not the one. So don't worry about throwing in bought unseen. For your sanity a suggestion is to say you will accept the refund. In the meantime get your vet to investigate. If there is anything obvious you can make an informed decision about what you are going to do. But the plan to try to re-purchase without knowing what is wrong is extremely risky. My final outside tge box thought is what sales the vendor bought the horse at given Covid19 shutdown since mid March. You have my very best wishes to getting through this.


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## Xtra (12 July 2020)

sorry i may have missed something but did this only happen when hacked alone?


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## Winters100 (12 July 2020)

Mikas-mom said:



			but what a lot of you seem to be forgetting is that she bought Prince so she and her daughter could ride him and enjoy him. Right now she’s clearly not able to do that, and probably won’t be able to until the cause of his hives/rearing/napping are found and sorted. If at all
she didn’t sign up for that.
		
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I totally agree with this. It is a horrid thing to have happened, but I don't think that it helps to suggest that the horse should have been managed differently.  Taking pain out of the equation if it was really a suitable first horse for a Mum / Daughter share then she should have been able to hop on the day after buying with no problems.  I did this with both of mine when I bought them, and although at my age they are more likely 'last horses' than 'first horses' they are both sane and well schooled, so had no problems being ridden by a different rider in a new place.  I would expect the same of any horse sold as a novice ride.  Kiera has had the horse on full livery and has had the advice of an experienced YO, so clearly the management of the horse can not have been terrible, even if some would have done things differently.  In my opinion Kiera deserves our sympathy as she is doing her best in very difficult circumstances, and whether the reasons for the rearing are pain related, behavioural or anything else the fact remains that this horse is not suitable.


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## paddy555 (12 July 2020)

indie1282 said:



			I would lose my shit over crab flies too!! I have never heard of them until I read about them on here then I googled them. HOLY COW they sound horrendous!!! One of my horses would go absolutely loco if he had one of those on him, he goes batshit if he has a horse fly land on him.
		
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yes they are good fun. It is amazing how some are badly affected and some couldn't care less. We used to ride a dun and a palomino. Dun went apeshit. On the common when he picked up a crab we used to stand the palomino next to him and then poke his nether regions around until the crab flew onto the palomino who couldn't care less and could be led away whilst we located the crab and killed it at our leisure. 
Locating them is a nightmare especially when you have black horses. Killing they need to be crushed between your fingers.


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## MagicMelon (12 July 2020)

Amymay said:



			If old owner won’t take him back, please, please, please do not pass him on.  I would agree with a full veterinary work up. But if if it turns out he’s un-rideable  your only option is to have him destroyed.
		
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OP, please dont assume the owner may have doped him or lied. I sold one particular horse in the past who was horrific with the new owner for the first 3 weeks - she didn't tell me until 3 weeks in, and what she told me sounded like a totally different horse, certainly one I had never experienced in all the years I had him. I took him back straight away and refunded her immediately as I care too much about my horses to be left in homes where they clearly arent happy. Have you asked the owner if they would consider taking it back?  Or at least coming over to ride it for you?  

The hives may well be an issue, Id get a full vet report done and get to the bottom of the hives thing. Then take it from there. If you do find nothing at all wrong, I'd probably try not riding him for a while and either turning him away for a month or two (hoping he'll reset) or lunging etc. instead. Maybe just try to get more of a bond with him for a while. You sounded like you got on with him so well before so I can only think something has gone wrong and can be fixed. Is he in the same tack as with his previous owner?  If not, maybe worth asking if you can borrow it to see if that makes a difference?


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## Ownedby4horses (12 July 2020)

OP, I’m trying to digest all the info and you have my every sympathy. The seller is acting very suspicious about when the two chips were mentioned so it’s pretty clear something untoward has gone on.

I really understand about you not wanting to send Prince back,  he’s in your heart and you’re extremely caring.  

It really does interest me that the rearing started when the pro rode him (I think I got that right?), my mare is the sweetest but can nap, if we deal calmly with it (we sit it out, I sing, I chatter) and she then decides it’s ok or worst case I hop off to take the pressure off and get back on her a bit further down the road to tell her “it’s ok, I’ve got this”. 

When I first got her, she’s tested me big time (and I’ve had horses over 40 years), I really had to up my game to handle her firmly and put boundaries in place, as she was clearly struggling adapting to a new home. 

My hubby can ride her (he’s a novice) and he rides her just in walk hacking out and she’s perfect as he is calm and gentle.

I only tried once to push her on really firmly during a napping episode and I flicked her lightly with the end of her rope reins to back up my aids and she launched into a broncing session and lashed out with a back hoof right in my husband’s direction.   

She had just become overloaded and I didn’t know her well enough to know her limit at that time and when I pushed her, I saw behaviour that’s I’ve never seen since.  

I get the impression that you are determined to keep him and whilst that is against most advice on here (I’m not going to say what I would do as you have to make your own mind up), I just wanted to say that it is possible that with the right sympathetic rider, they could work with him without getting him to that point of overload that he obviously reached when he rested.  

If you are determined to keep him then you should get a full vet check, get his saddle checked, get his back checked, teeth, bit, bridle, etc. Strip him of ALL feed. You will then be aware of anything “basic” that could be the cause of his reaction.

The issue may be that you throw money at everything but if you do find things and resolve them, would you feel you could trust him again?  A lack of trust in a horse can cause more behavioural issues as the horse will be picking up on your worries. 

I just wanted to offer you a little bit of support as if you are absolutely dead set on keeping him then obviously that’s your decision (and there’s a lot of very good advice on here that will allow you to make an informed decision) but there will be plenty of people that understand the emotional situation you are faced with, I think I can honestly say that a lot of people on here will support your decision either way and will always help as much as they can whatever decision you do finally reach.


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## MagicMelon (12 July 2020)

fredflop said:



			As far as I see... two options, full vet work up or PTS.
		
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Two options, surely the only option is the vet work up and then take it from there. I dont see how its at all kind to the horse to have an option at this stage of just killing it from a bit of napping and one big rear. Poor thing could easily have pain etc. which would be sorted!


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## DiNozzo (12 July 2020)

I used to have a little chestnut cob who was a bit nappy and backwards thinking but generally safe unless his saddle became tight across his shoulders. He'd fling himself vertically if you applied any pressure. 

Didn't have to be a bad fit either, just not quite right, so if you want a quick and fairly easy thing to check, I'd get a different saddle fitter in to have a look.


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## paddy555 (12 July 2020)

ycbm said:



			This is not a time,  surely,  to be making the OP feel any worse,  particularly as she took advice from an experienced yard owner?

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I am not trying to make OP feel any worse.  I sympathise with her situation. However her options ATM are send it back which I didn't think she wanted to do or PTS. If I was in that position I would have liked to know why I was going to PTS a horse. I think there is more that could be done and as you yourself said yesterday there is a need to get to the bottom of the hives situation and then reviewing again.


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## Michen (12 July 2020)

I bought a known rearer from a dodgy dealer. Sued the woman and she eventually took the horse back. I tried to ask her to give back less money so I could shoot the horse and her not have it back but she wouldn’t.

horse had two foals and died giving birth to the third thank god. She was unhinged.

I’ve always felt a little guilty I sent her back but frankly I could afford to loose my entire 4K and she was I had hoped distinctive enough to not be able to resell. Any google of her passport name would bring up my threads on her.


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## Auslander (12 July 2020)

MagicMelon said:



			OP, please dont assume the owner may have doped him or lied. I sold one particular horse in the past who was horrific with the new owner for the first 3 weeks - she didn't tell me until 3 weeks in, and what she told me sounded like a totally different horse, certainly one I had never experienced in all the years I had him. I took him back straight away and refunded her immediately as I care too much about my horses to be left in homes where they clearly arent happy. Have you asked the owner if they would consider taking it back?  Or at least coming over to ride it for you? 

The hives may well be an issue, Id get a full vet report done and get to the bottom of the hives thing. Then take it from there. If you do find nothing at all wrong, I'd probably try not riding him for a while and either turning him away for a month or two (hoping he'll reset) or lunging etc. instead. Maybe just try to get more of a bond with him for a while. You sounded like you got on with him so well before so I can only think something has gone wrong and can be fixed. Is he in the same tack as with his previous owner?  If not, maybe worth asking if you can borrow it to see if that makes a difference?
		
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If you read the OP's other posts - the horse came from what sounds like a bin end dealer in Ireland, who didnt give a toss until she mentioned that she knew the horse had two microchips. I don't fancy her chances of getting any help whatsoever from them. They'll take the horse back, but then it is back in the downward spiral of problematic horses that fall into the hands of people who can't be arsed to investigate/sort them out. OP is determined that this doesn't happen to that horse, and should be commended for caring


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## Chuffy99 (12 July 2020)

Didn’t realise what a wealthy lot you all were, £2500 would take me a long time to save and I certainly couldn’t justify losing it. All these work ups being suggested cost, vet work ups possibly ending with a MRI could easily reach four figures and OP still has a horse that likely she can’t fix for her and her daughter to ride. 
Don’t personally see an old TB in a wet Irish field being anything but a millstone round her neck and even the PTS option is going to cost £500,
OP send him back and get your money back, you may have had a lucky escape from a nasty injury


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## Bellaboo18 (12 July 2020)

Not directed at OP but yes £2500 is a lot of money but honestly if you can't afford to lose it or to PTS on top of that I don't think it's responsible to buy a horse. Anything can happen on the first day of ownership.


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## fusspot (12 July 2020)

Tbh I think everyone is now going round in circles.At the end of the day, what is done is done and I am sure the OP will learn from it as we have all had to learn from mistakes we have made. 

Obviously the OP is very attached and as we all are....feel sorry for the horse.She has had the offer of a full refund and it is only the OP who knows if she is in a financial position to turn down a full refund whilst trying to investigate the 2 microchips or investigate what or if any pain related issues that the horse may have.There is only a limited time to return it.

Only the OP can decide if even when the horse is/isn’t treated she is comfortable putting herself or more importantly her daughter on board Or if she can afford another that would be suitable for them both as well as keeping this one.

Maybe a lesson to a lot of owners,to man up and let these horses go when/if they are unrideable,rather than passing them off to low life dealers to sell on,make a profit and put some trusting person in such a difficult position.

I think OP now needs to be left to work it out herself and decide which path to take.


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## LaurenBay (12 July 2020)

OP I haven't read all of the replies. But if you do go down the medical route and find that he is unrideable but happy enough in the field. Contact the blood bank. He is the right height for it and they lead a good life.


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## ycbm (12 July 2020)

paddy555 said:



			you yourself said yesterday there is a need to get to the bottom of the hives situation and then reviewing again.
		
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I said that before the two chips and the dealer's reaction to the two chips was known. My opinion is now that the horse should be returned or PTS, it is a money pit and a heartbreaker situation. The chances of it ever being the mother daughter share it was supposed to be are lower than mine of winning the lottery.  And I don't buy a ticket for the lottery.  
.


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## ycbm (12 July 2020)

Chuffy99 said:



			even the PTS option is going to cost £500,
		
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It costs £170 to have a horse shot and the carcass removed around here.  

.


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## Gingerwitch (12 July 2020)

Chuffy99 said:



			Didn’t realise what a wealthy lot you all were, £2500 would take me a long time to save and I certainly couldn’t justify losing it. All these work ups being suggested cost, vet work ups possibly ending with a MRI could easily reach four figures and OP still has a horse that likely she can’t fix for her and her daughter to ride. 
Don’t personally see an old TB in a wet Irish field being anything but a millstone round her neck and even the PTS option is going to cost £500,
OP send him back and get your money back, you may have had a lucky escape from a nasty injury
		
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Not wealthy by any means but commited to the souls we have the privilege of buying. I could not live with my conscience of sending the poor lad back.


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## Keira 8888 (12 July 2020)

TPO said:



			Not trying to talk anyone into anything. It wouldn't be advised for anyone, let alone a complete novice first time buyer, to buy a horse unseen from Ireland. As an aside the fact that there are so many older exracers available over here I cant understand any temptation at all to buy one unseen from Ireland.

However what is done is done. In my eyes when you take ownership of any animal you become responsible for them.

As pointed out several times the absolute basics haven't been covered regarding horses welfare (farrier/dentist/physio/saddle fitter). Horse has (painful?) hives and is tacked up/girthed and ridden. The horse arrived in poor condition so even if the saddle did fit perfectly 4wks ago it is unlikely to now given the change in condition/shape.

I appreciate the value of money and that the seller was dishonest. I cant imagine returning a horse to the fate we all know will happen...being sold on again after yet more upheaval. So back to my original point, when you buy any animal you assume full responsibility. The seller might or might not be telling their version of the truth but its buyer beware.

Any buyer can view, try and vet a horse and therefore protect themself somewhat and make informed decisions regarding the purchase. When buying unseen you are taking a punt and have to deal with the consequences; these are the consequences. I've bought unseen (long story) and a malnourished skeleton arrived, not for one second would he have been going back.

On a further tangent I find the full refund hard to believe. They are going to fully refund and pay for the transportation back to Ireland? The police are stretched as it is, I cant see them pursuing possibly dodgy dealers in Ireland?

I feel heart sorry for Prince. Even if the implausible plan of him living in a field in ireland were to happen IF there is something underlying then turning him away to rot in a field isnt necessarily a kindness either for an older TB.

Ugg, whole thing is a mess bowing out because I've already said that I think the very basics should be covered and a proper professional trainer involved. I just hope its resolved in Prince's best interests.
		
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Have you read my posts properly? I did cover the basics! And more! I had his vaccinations done, a dental check by the vet, a dental check by a dentist, a vetting by my uk vet. Comprehensive fly products. A saddle professionally fitted and then brought back to assess saddle fit with new half pad!!!! I have absolutely looked after him. I have scoured forums to find solutions to crab flies - even gone on to french sites to see what solutions they have to crab flies out there! I have spent whatever money and time was needed to look after Prince!
I paid for a professional trainer to get involved! I did everything I could! My YO is an extremely respected horseman with decades of experience.

Please read the full threads before you post such an ill informed post


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## paddy555 (12 July 2020)

ycbm said:



			I said that before the two chips and the dealer's reaction to the two chips was known. My opinion is now that the horse should be returned or PTS, it is a money pit and a heartbreaker situation. The chances of it ever being the mother daughter share it was supposed to be are lower than mine of winning the lottery.  And I don't buy a ticket for the lottery. 
.
		
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so yesterday hives could have been a problem, may even have caused it and the outcome should be taken into account.  Today 2 chips and it should be returned or PTS.  Don't get that at all I am afraid. 

To my mind either the horse has a serious problem that it came with, will never be right and should be PTS. By PTS I mean PTS not sent back for this to happen all over again. Alternatively there has been a management problem during it's time in England. If that could be resolved then the horse may be rideable. Will it be suitable for this mother/daughter then probably not however it may well be perfectly OK to be sold on which would be another option rather than PTS.


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## Chinchilla (12 July 2020)

Gingerwitch said:



			Not wealthy by any means but commited to the souls we have the privilege of buying. I could not live with my conscience of sending the poor lad back.
		
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ycbm said:



			My opinion is now that the horse should be returned or PTS, it is a money pit and a heartbreaker situation. 
.
		
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I agree with these two, now.
 OP, if you care about the horse - and by the sounds of it you do - a quick painless death is by far and away the kindness option for him and the cheapest for you. 

I also think it is far, far too risky that he would be sold on and potentially injure or kill somebody to send him back. Personally I wouldn't want that possibility on my conscience.


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## Misty 2020 (12 July 2020)

Some People are being very hash to the op anyone could make a mistake buying a horse. I would return the horse.


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## Bellaboo18 (12 July 2020)

Keira 8888 said:



			Have you read my posts properly? I did cover the basics! And more! I had his vaccinations done, a dental check by the vet, a dental check by a dentist, a vetting by my uk vet. Comprehensive fly products. A saddle professionally fitted and then brought back to assess saddle fit with new half pad!!!! I have absolutely looked after him. I have scoured forums to find solutions to crab flies - even gone on to french sites to see what solutions they have to crab flies out there! I have spent whatever money and time was needed to look after Prince!
I paid for a professional trainer to get involved! I did everything I could! My YO is an extremely respected horseman with decades of experience.

Please read the full threads before you post such an ill informed post
		
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I thought TPOs post was really good.
To be fair as much as I feel sorry for you and more so your horse and I wouldn't judge you on your next steps. Your talking about 4 weeks, you cant possibly say you've given him whatever time was needed.

Whatever time would be keeping him.
Whatever money would be a workup. 

You're clearly kind but your management has shown your lack of knowledge and would affect most horses. Only sitting in a field for the first week with a horse sounds sweet but isn't setting them up to succeed.


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## Winters100 (12 July 2020)

paddy555 said:



			so yesterday hives could have been a problem, may even have caused it and the outcome should be taken into account.  Today 2 chips and it should be returned or PTS.  Don't get that at all I am afraid.

To my mind either the horse has a serious problem that it came with, will never be right and should be PTS. By PTS I mean PTS not sent back for this to happen all over again. Alternatively there has been a management problem during it's time in England. If that could be resolved then the horse may be rideable. Will it be suitable for this mother/daughter then probably not however it may well be perfectly OK to be sold on which would be another option rather than PTS.
		
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The problem is though that even if this is a management issue (which personally I strongly doubt since it was in full livery with an experienced YO), then the horse can most likely only be managed and ridden by an experienced owner.  I would assume that not many confident and experienced owners are looking for 24 year olds, especially known rearers  I know that feeding can make a huge difference, but I would not expect such a reaction from a horse suitable for novices.  The odd little buck or being a tiny bit too strong I could see, but near vertical rearing?  A very sad situation for all.


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## Pearlsasinger (12 July 2020)

ycbm said:



			Most people who buy a new horse ride it the day it arrives or the following day and get it straight into the routine is going to be living in.  Napping is not inevitable, it's common but not common enough to be classed as normal.

This is not a time,  surely,  to be making the OP feel any worse,  particularly as she took advice from an experienced yard owner?

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That is certainly the advice that is often given on here!  I wouldn't do it but that is my choice and I don't listen to 'well-meaning' advice.


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## Pearlsasinger (12 July 2020)

ycbm said:



			It costs £170 to have a horse shot and the carcass removed around here. 

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Really? £120 here!


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## doodle (12 July 2020)

He is 16 or perhaps younger not 24.

I couldn’t send him back as the cycle will just happen again with him. Be in no doubt the dealer will not retire him to a happy field as lovely as that sounds. But £2500 is a lot of money to loose. Ultimately it is up to the op to decide if they can loose this money and probably a fair bit more, or not. She has done the best for this horse up till now.


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## Keira 8888 (12 July 2020)

Bellaboo18 said:



			I thought TPOs post was really good.
To be fair as much as I feel sorry for you and more so your horse and I wouldn't judge you on your next steps. Your talking about 4 weeks, you cant possibly say you've given him whatever time was needed.

Whatever time would be keeping him.
Whatever money would be a workup.

You're clearly kind but your management has shown your lack of knowledge and would affect most horses. Only sitting in a field for the first week with a horse sounds sweet but isn't setting them up to succeed.
		
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I disagree. I think it is absolutely setting him up to succeed. He had a long journey from Ireland. He was underweight. I needed to get to know him and observe him from afar. I think sitting in the field watching him for the first week was a wonderful start - and allowed me (a novice) to get on and ride him successfully when a professional rider couldn’t. Never underestimate letting a new horse have time to settle and get to know you and their new surroundings.


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## paddy555 (12 July 2020)

Keira 8888 said:



			Have you read my posts properly? I did cover the basics! And more! I had his vaccinations done, a dental check by the vet, a dental check by a dentist, a vetting by my uk vet. Comprehensive fly products. A saddle professionally fitted and then brought back to assess saddle fit with new half pad!!!! I have absolutely looked after him. I have scoured forums to find solutions to crab flies - even gone on to french sites to see what solutions they have to crab flies out there! I have spent whatever money and time was needed to look after Prince!
I paid for a professional trainer to get involved! I did everything I could! My YO is an extremely respected horseman with decades of experience.

Please read the full threads before you post such an ill informed post
		
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I do see that you have done everything by the book. I am not criticising you at all. I think it is important that instead of taking comments as criticism you should realise they are not, they are trying to make sense of your situation in an attempt to help Prince. 

 Prince has gone from a thread where you were happy riding on 4th July to this one only a few days later. If he was a rearer/had serious problems etc etc etc why did both you and your daughter have such a nice time only a few days ago.

Sometimes you have to forget about the book and think outside the box. Horse keeping has little to do with following the book and doing all the vaccinations etc etc. That is just the accepted norm. It is about intuition. What has happened to cause this?
In your 4th July post you wrote that you had been out alone on country roads, met feral ponies, met cars and a hornet. He was calm. Life was fine. 

A horse with such a serious problem would not have done that. At some stage in that ride he would have regressed into his previous nasty habits yet he didn't. Your daughter rode him. 

One thing I hadn't noticed before about your post was he met a hornet. I met one several years ago, the horse got stung and was off work for 2 weeks. Looking at him may not have been very obvious but I have no doubt if I had ridden it would have been. 

what is causing the hives. We have established you have done the right thing and called the vet. Had the right injection etc, changed the feed but how was/is Prince affected. He may not be or he may be. 

Like many people if I had a pound for everytime someone tells me their vet/farrier/rider etc is an extremely respected horse person I would be rich as many others would. 

You and your daughter rode Prince happily. Is your YO really that horse person?  I have no idea. It is however something to look at. Does Prince dis like men? He certainly won't be the first. 
Please don't take this as criticism. It is not. It is trying to find a reason that does not involve either a bullet or sending back to Ireland and a bleak future. 
He may well not be suitable for you but if a reason can be found he may be suitable for someone else.


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## Keira 8888 (12 July 2020)

Kamikaze said:



			He is 16 or perhaps younger not 24.

I couldn’t send him back as the cycle will just happen again with him. Be in no doubt the dealer will not retire him to a happy field as lovely as that sounds. But £2500 is a lot of money to loose. Ultimately it is up to the op to decide if they can loose this money and probably a fair bit more, or not. She has done the best for this horse up till now.
		
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Thank you for this x


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## CanteringCarrot (12 July 2020)

Idk, some horses do fine with a let down and adjustment period, but some do quite well with just cracking on with their new owner and surroundings. I can't say either way is completely wrong, but no one way is right for every horse.


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## Keira 8888 (12 July 2020)

paddy555 said:



			I do see that you have done everything by the book. I am not criticising you at all. I think it is important that instead of taking comments as criticism you should realise they are not, they are trying to make sense of your situation in an attempt to help Prince.

Prince has gone from a thread where you were happy riding on 4th July to this one only a few days later. If he was a rearer/had serious problems etc etc etc why did both you and your daughter have such a nice time only a few days ago.

Sometimes you have to forget about the book and think outside the box. Horse keeping has little to do with following the book and doing all the vaccinations etc etc. That is just the accepted norm. It is about intuition. What has happened to cause this?
In your 4th July post you wrote that you had been out alone on country roads, met feral ponies, met cars and a hornet. He was calm. Life was fine.

A horse with such a serious problem would not have done that. At some stage in that ride he would have regressed into his previous nasty habits yet he didn't. Your daughter rode him.

One thing I hadn't noticed before about your post was he met a hornet. I met one several years ago, the horse got stung and was off work for 2 weeks. Looking at him may not have been very obvious but I have no doubt if I had ridden it would have been.

what is causing the hives. We have established you have done the right thing and called the vet. Had the right injection etc, changed the feed but how was/is Prince affected. He may not be or he may be.

Like many people if I had a pound for everytime someone tells me their vet/farrier/rider etc is an extremely respected horse person I would be rich as many others would.

You and your daughter rode Prince happily. Is your YO really that horse person?  I have no idea. It is however something to look at. Does Prince dis like men? He certainly won't be the first.
Please don't take this as criticism. It is not. It is trying to find a reason that does not involve either a bullet or sending back to Ireland and a bleak future.
He may well not be suitable for you but if a reason can be found he may be suitable for someone else.
		
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Thank you for your post and I respect you very much from your previous kind posts to me. The comments I take as criticism are those which are inaccurate e.g that I didn’t get saddle fitted, dentist, fly protection etc..


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## Bellaboo18 (12 July 2020)

Keira 8888 said:



			I disagree. I think it is absolutely setting him up to succeed. He had a long journey from Ireland. He was underweight. I needed to get to know him and observe him from afar. I think sitting in the field watching him for the first week was a wonderful start - and allowed me (a novice) to get on and ride him successfully when a professional rider couldn’t. Never underestimate letting a new horse have time to settle and get to know you and their new surroundings.
		
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I won't list all the things you've done wrong in the last month but please get something suitable for a complete beginner next time don't mistake the kind posts for giving you a pat on the back. You can't ride better than a professional.
Please don't attempt to give me advice, it's not me that finds themselve in this unfortunate position...I wonder why that is.


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## mini_b (12 July 2020)

I really feel for Keira and agree with others not a nice way to learn a hard lesson. 

after after posting about looking for a horse on 1st June, querying costs etc had bought a horse by 4th of June. 

An unseen, 16hh TB as a mother/daughter share for a novice rider and novice 9y/o daughter. 
I honestly can’t get my head around that  

I know she’s really tried her best getting pros/experienced people involved but it’s all been a bit gung ho.


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## ycbm (12 July 2020)

paddy555 said:



			so yesterday hives could have been a problem, may even have caused it and the outcome should be taken into account.  Today 2 chips and it should be returned or PTS.  Don't get that at all I am afraid. 
.
		
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The information that the horse has two chips and that the dealer is running scared of the fact that they have been found is a game changer for me. It radically reduces the chances that this horse will ever be right for the owner, increases the sense in taking the return option (which could benefit horse kind and future owners by punishing the dealer) and reduces the sense in taking on a potential  load of heartache in trying to fix the horse.

Other people will hold a different view,  that's mine at the point of what we know now.

.


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## doodle (12 July 2020)

Op states he started being difficult to ride. So she, quite correctly, got yo (I think it was yo) to take over the reins. He then rode the horse when the horse was still getting progressively worse. So when op got on and he reared this was not the start of the issue. Yo has now said he will not ride the horse as behaviour getting worse and not a one off.

possibly the horse was in poor condition and had had a long journey and so didn’t act up. He got some decent feed (yes perhaps too much of a high energy feed) rested and is now feeling he has more energy and so the behaviour has restarted.


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## Keira 8888 (12 July 2020)

Mikas-mom said:



			I really feel for Keira and Prince with all this mess. At the end of the day she (mistakenly) bought a horse who she was led to believe was suitable. As most have said, a more knowledgeable person wouldn’t have done things the way she did, but hey ho, what’s done is done, she can’t change the past.
as far as I know from reading her other threads, Keira has done her best to do right by Prince, including having the vets out, feet done, saddle checked, feed changes etc etc.
she is a novice first time owner and has been going on advice (whether right advice or wrong advice we don’t know as we don’t know all the ins and outs) that should be applauded as not many people would be so conscientious, Instead thinking they know best.
Yes, Prince has had A LOT of change in a short amount of time, and as most of us know it can take months, if not years for a horse to settle into a new home, some never do.
keira could now do things In so many different ways. She could go down the vets work out route, she could retire Prince as a field pet, she could go back to basics, stop all hard feed, try to get to the root cause of the hives...etc etc.

but what a lot of you seem to be forgetting is that she bought Prince so she and her daughter could ride him and enjoy him. Right now she’s clearly not able to do that, and probably won’t be able to until the cause of his hives/rearing/napping are found and sorted. If at all
she didn’t sign up for that.

as she bought from a dealer she has a limited amount of time to return the horse, so those telling her to give him time need to really think about that. its all well and good giving him time (as most of us more experienced owners would do) but then she may be stuck with a horse who she cannot ride and cannot return.
of course I think none of us are under any illusions of what will happen to Prince. I don’t think any of us think he will be retired to live out his days, but that’s not something that should be out on Keira’s head.
its a sad fact that dealers like this exist, but they do, and while ever they do, horses like this are going to be passed around 

Keira needs to do whats right for her and her daughter, and if that means sending Prince back to the dealer, sadly I have to say so be it. As I said before, we can’t save every horse, and in all reality not all of us can afford more than one horse Or lose the initial outlay.

she needs to take her heart out of the equation and use her head as hard as it will Be
		
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Thank you so much for this, everything you say is exactly how I feel xx thank you xx


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## Frumpoon (12 July 2020)

I'll ask again, with the very best of intentions...where are you? Perhaps one of us is nearby and can lend a hand or friendly ear? I know several professional horsemen I wouldn't let ride my horses - they are just too rough


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## Keira 8888 (12 July 2020)

Kamikaze said:



			Op states he started being difficult to ride. So she, quite correctly, got yo (I think it was yo) to take over the reins. He then rode the horse when the horse was still getting progressively worse. So when op got on and he reared this was not the start of the issue. Yo has now said he will not ride the horse as behaviour getting worse and not a one off.

possibly the horse was in poor condition and had had a long journey and so didn’t act up. He got some decent feed (yes perhaps too much of a high energy feed) rested and is now feeling he has more energy and so the behaviour has restarted.
		
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Exactly this xx


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## Keira 8888 (12 July 2020)

Frumpoon said:



			I'll ask again, with the very best of intentions...where are you? Perhaps one of us is nearby and can lend a hand or friendly ear? I know several professional horsemen I wouldn't let ride my horses - they are just too rough
		
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I am in Minstead, in the new forest xx


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## CanteringCarrot (12 July 2020)

Look, I love ex-racers, I've owned one, I've dealt with and ridden many, but they can certainly be too much. They really need the right feed and usually thrive on a consistent exercise program. When they start feeling good from proper nutrition and getting fit again, they can be a handful, as can horses of other breeding. However, an ex-racer is likely to have some mileage and old injuries. Not necessarily outright soundness issues, but it doesn't surprise me when there are a few things lurking  beneath the surface on such a horse.


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## Keira 8888 (12 July 2020)

CanteringCarrot said:



			As for the pro, I do agree some "bring out the worst" in horses or push them the wrong way. However, this horse being nappy while being led in signals to me he is in pain and dreading the possibility of work. I think this is the same horse that also broke away and got loose? I could be mixing up threads here. But it seems like something is clearly bothering him. He could have a hell of an attitude, but more times than not, it is pain related.

I do admit I have a horse that plays jokes on others, as in he will make a different handler believe he cannot walk through a puddle, trot in hand, or be a productive member of society, but there is a difference between "testing" or needing a sharp handler, and a clear demonstration of resistance due to pain. No horse that isn't driven by insanity (a screw loose), a total rotten rider, or pain, WANTS to rear up, high, with a rider. When a horse loses self preservation, there is a serious issue, IMO.
		
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Yes this makes sende


splashgirl45 said:



			it does not help for people to say that they would keep the horse,  the OP feels bad enough and none of us know her financial situation nd these posts are not helping her to make any sort of decision, just making her feel even worse than she does.  from her posts she sounds like a very caring person who is going through hell trying to decide what to do.  there are enough posts stating different options and she needs to think everything out for herself now..
		
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thank you for this xx


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## Keira 8888 (12 July 2020)

Bellaboo18 said:



			I won't list all the things you've done wrong in the last month but please get something suitable for a complete beginner next time don't mistake the kind posts for giving you a pat on the back. You can't ride better than a professional.
Please don't attempt to give me advice, it's not me that finds themselve in this unfortunate position...I wonder why that is.
		
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I honestly don’t want to argue and I wasn’t trying to give you advice. I’m sorry if it came over that way, I’m upset. I love this horse and actually - it would help me if you told me what you think I’ve done wrong with my care decisions - anything you point out won’t be taken as criticism I promise. I will take it as positive feedback x


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## Mikas-mom (12 July 2020)

@Keira 8888

something that’s just popped into my head and may give you something to think about.
Lets assume you keep Prince, get the full vet work up and possibly find a cure/solution/reason (or however you want to put it) to the issues. spend ££££ Trying to resolve said issues (if indeed there are any/any can be found)
assuming the problems can be fixed,  would you, hand on heart feel 100% comfortable getting back on Prince? Or letting your daughter ride him again?


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## be positive (12 July 2020)

CanteringCarrot said:



			Look, I love ex-racers, I've owned one, I've dealt with and ridden many, but they can certainly be too much. They really need the right feed and usually thrive on a consistent exercise program. When they start feeling good from proper nutrition and getting fit again, they can be a handful, as can horses of other breeding. However, an ex-racer is likely to have some mileage and old injuries. Not necessarily outright soundness issues, but it doesn't surprise me when there are a few things lurking  beneath the surface on such a horse.
		
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I agree but the OP did not buy an ex racehorse, or not knowingly if it is one, she bought an ISH that had hunted, evented, been used in a RS and needed a quieter life or that was the story given by the dealer, it seems to have jumped to being a tb and ex racehorse as if that is the reason for it being not suitable, the OP has made some mistakes but the dealer who sold this horse, had a new passport issued is at fault far more than the OP who has tried her best, we can go round in circles making up various scenarios but the OP should not be made to feel guilty if she does decide to return him although I suspect she will feel pressured into having investigations done, I hope she tracks down the original passport first as it may answer a lot of questions.


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## misst (12 July 2020)

Keira you come across as caring and humble. Some of the people on here have been very unkind really.
Mistakes - my god I've made some in my time and I'm not proud but I hope I learned.
You must do what is best for your family and Prince and that is almost certainly involving some compromise. 
I have already said what I would do but I am not you.
I wish you luck and peace with your outcome.


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## CanteringCarrot (12 July 2020)

be positive said:



			I agree but the OP did not buy an ex racehorse, or not knowingly if it is one, she bought an ISH that had hunted, evented, been used in a RS and needed a quieter life or that was the story given by the dealer, it seems to have jumped to being a tb and ex racehorse as if that is the reason for it being not suitable, the OP has made some mistakes but the dealer who sold this horse, had a new passport issued is at fault far more than the OP who has tried her best, we can go round in circles making up various scenarios but the OP should not be made to feel guilty if she does decide to return him although I suspect she will feel pressured into having investigations done, I hope she tracks down the original passport first as it may answer a lot of questions.
		
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I don't think I'm making up a scenario as much as I am trying to rationalize what could've triggered a behavior change in the horse, if that makes sense. I do not know if the horse is an ISH or ex-racer, so you've got me there. I can't keep track of it all to be honest.

As far as the OP trying her best, we all have different definitions of what is trying ones best in the situation, so there is bound to be disagreement there. It doesn't have to get nasty or insulting. It's just how it is. 2 horse people, 3 opinions and all that. The OP can sort through those opinions and ultimately take action, or not. I may or may not agree with the outcome, but it's not for me to decide. I/we can only offer advice.

Tracking down more info about the horse could prove helpful, but I'm not sure what the odds are of that.


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## Keira 8888 (12 July 2020)

Mikas-mom said:



@Keira 8888

something that’s just popped into my head and may give you something to think about.
Lets assume you keep Prince, get the full vet work up and possibly find a cure/solution/reason (or however you want to put it) to the issues. spend ££££ Trying to resolve said issues (if indeed there are any/any can be found)
assuming the problems can be fixed,  would you, hand on heart feel 100% comfortable getting back on Prince? Or letting your daughter ride him again?
		
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I have been thinking about this. A lot. And unfortunately the answer is no


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## Amirah (12 July 2020)

Oh dear, this is all very sad.

There is no easy way out unfortunately. Even if Keira sends Prince back and gets a refund she is then going to always wonder where he is and if he's OK, as that's what happens once a horse gets under your skin, especially your first.

So the choices are:

Send him back (as long as she can forget about him, possibly doubtful as she loves him).

Give him to the cousin in Ireland.

See if one of the charities will take him (doubtful, but with horses selling so well -  who knows?)

Have him shot

Send him to an amazing trainer such as Michael Peace (expensive but when you consider the money spent over a horses' lifetime maybe not).

Go down the full vet route scans/x rays etc

Move to another yard away from the respected YO who has possibly tried to bully him through the behaviour/made him sore with the lunging etc and start over when the hives/crab flies/alfalfa issues are sorted. As has been said on here, some 'professionals' suck.

If it was me and I had the cash I'd send him off to Michael Peace (but that's just what I would do, we all have different views and I respect everyone's).


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## CanteringCarrot (12 July 2020)

I don't know if I've lived in Germany too long but I haven't seen anyone be unkind. Only direct with their thoughts on the matter. But I am learning that there is a high standard for kindness on this board, which is just fine.


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## laura_nash (12 July 2020)

Wishfilly said:



			ETA: I actually think long term, returning horses like this is the way to go. It may not be the best thing for that individual horse, but the less dealers get away with scamming people, then the less they are likely to do it, which long term will be better for everyone.
		
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This, 100%.  To me everyone saying OP should keep the horse in retirement or PTS and not get a refund from the dealer, its no different really to people buying a puppy off a puppy farmer because they feel sorry for it.  Its better for the individual animal of course, but its supporting a business that shouldn't be supported.


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## fredflop (12 July 2020)

Amirah said:



			Oh dear, this is all very sad.

There is no easy way out unfortunately. Even if Keira sends Prince back and gets a refund she is then going to always wonder where he is and if he's OK, as that's what happens once a horse gets under your skin, especially your first.

So the choices are:

Send him back (as long as she can forget about him, possibly doubtful as she loves him).

Give him to the cousin in Ireland.

See if one of the charities will take him (doubtful, but with horses selling so well -  who knows?)

Have him shot

Send him to an amazing trainer such as Michael Peace (expensive but when you consider the money spent over a horses' lifetime maybe not).

Go down the full vet route scans/x rays etc

Move to another yard away from the respected YO who has possibly tried to bully him through the behaviour/made him sore with the lunging etc and start over when the hives/crab flies/alfalfa issues are sorted. As has been said on here, some 'professionals' suck.

If it was me and I had the cash I'd send him off to Michael Peace (but that's just what I would do, we all have different views and I respect everyone's).
		
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I’d doubt Michael peace/similar trainer would touch the horse without a full vet work up first


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## Amirah (12 July 2020)

I once looked into sending him one a long time ago and a vet work up first wasn't mentioned so dunno?


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## Bellaboo18 (12 July 2020)

laura_nash said:



			This, 100%.  To me everyone saying OP should keep the horse in retirement or PTS and not get a refund from the dealer, its no different really to people buying a puppy off a puppy farmer because they feel sorry for it.  Its better for the individual animal of course, but its supporting a business that shouldn't be supported.
		
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I think the aim is to not buy the puppy/horse in the first place.


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## Mikas-mom (12 July 2020)

Keira 8888 said:



			I have been thinking about this. A lot. And unfortunately the answer is no 

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Exactly as I expected.
I think in that case it’s pretty clear the best course of action to take, as much as you love prince, you bought a horse that you and your daughter could ride and enjoy. You’re not going to get that with this horse.
of course it’s easy for all of us on the forum to tell you what you should/shouldn’t do as it doesn’t directly involve us.
But if you’re not going to have the trust there to ride him after pouring ££££ into him, assuming he can be ‘fixed’ then it should make things a bit easier.
you have done far more than a lot of first time buyers would have done in this situation, so you have nothing to feel guilty about should you decide to send him back Xx


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## Wishfilly (12 July 2020)

Sorry, it's probably me where the idea of it being an ex-racehorse has come from, and that's only because I have seen similar scams before in a job I used to have. It's not just that ex-racers often have a lower value for various reasons. It's also to do with the fact that their racing names are (mostly) unique and that makes it relatively easy to track down their history online - I've also seen similar with other horses that have unique/unusual passport names. 

Obviously I don't know if the horse is in fact an ex-racer, and the double microchip + duplicate passport may be a legitimate mistake as well (although the dealer's initial reaction suggests otherwise). 

I didn't want to add confusion to the thread- but I do think it's likely OP has been deliberately scammed.

WRT the rearing, even if it is down to a particular person's way of riding, or feeding, or some other thing that can be easily solved, I think it's clear the horse has an extreme reaction to certain situations or is in a lot of pain (or possibly both). Even if the issue is solved, the behaviour may re-emerge next time the horse is stressed or may continue due to remembered pain- personally I'm not sure I'd ever feel comfortable putting a child on a horse that has reared and nearly gone over.


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## indie1282 (12 July 2020)

Keira 8888 said:



			I disagree. I think it is absolutely setting him up to succeed. He had a long journey from Ireland. He was underweight. I needed to get to know him and observe him from afar. I think sitting in the field watching him for the first week was a wonderful start - and allowed me (a novice) to get on and ride him successfully when a professional rider couldn’t. Never underestimate letting a new horse have time to settle and get to know you and their new surroundings.
		
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You sound like a very nice person and i do believe you had the horses best interests at heart and were guided by 'professionals' but it wasn't setting him up to succeed.

Horse arrives poor from Ireland - he was supposed to have been a quite schoolmaster, i would have ridden him quietly even if he was poor.
Then you fed him up - on Alfalfa which can cause a really extreme reaction in some horses, rendering some unrideable.
You sat in his field for the first week watching him - he needed to be doing something, working and learning even if it was groundwork to establish some sort of relationship.
Then when he got hives you continued to work him - maybe this was your YO's advice but i wouldn't have ridden him until they were sorted.

I'm confused by what outcome you want from this? The dealer offer to refund you and had a lorry in the UK to collect him but you said no way is he going back? So is sending him back still an option or no?

i think the posts about the horse being pts are extreme and the horse hasn't had a chance imo. I said it before but get him off ALL feed and leave him out in a field for a month. Then get a different pro in to ride him and let them assess him. Even if you dont feel safe riding him you could sell him on as a useful riding horse.

There is a lot of knowledge on this forum and i dont think anyone underestimates giving a new horse time but any horse that is ridden should be able to be tacked up and ridden straight from the lorry if need be. Yes they may take time to 'settle' in their surroundings but they should be ready to ride straight away.


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## Amymay (12 July 2020)

Bellaboo18 said:



			I thought TPOs post was really good.
To be fair as much as I feel sorry for you and more so your horse and I wouldn't judge you on your next steps. Your talking about 4 weeks, you cant possibly say you've given him whatever time was needed.

Whatever time would be keeping him.
Whatever money would be a workup.

You're clearly kind but your management has shown your lack of knowledge and would affect most horses. Only sitting in a field for the first week with a horse sounds sweet but isn't setting them up to succeed.
		
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I never ride any new horse immediately.  But that’s besides the point.  If I bought a ‘safe’ horse, as far as I’m concerned it can stand in the field for a month before I get on it and I wouldn’t expect it to stand up on its hind legs.  That is not normal behaviour.  So unless we’re not getting the full story and something pretty untoward was done to the horse whilst it was being ridden, I can’t see what you think the op has done so wrong with this horse 🤷🏻‍♀️


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## Ownedby4horses (12 July 2020)

Bellaboo18 said:



			I won't list all the things you've done wrong in the last month but please get something suitable for a complete beginner next time don't mistake the kind posts for giving you a pat on the back. You can't ride better than a professional.
Please don't attempt to give me advice, it's not me that finds themselve in this unfortunate position...I wonder why that is.
		
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Nasty and totally uncalled for.


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## stormox (12 July 2020)

CanteringCarrot said:



			Not to hijack, but this could help the OP anyway, but what are legitimate reasons for a horse having 2 microchips? My not so creative brain can't think of any.
		
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I had a TB with ahis original weatherbys passport, and there were 2 chip numbers. After 1st no. It was stamped 'unable to locate chip' with vets sig, and underneath was the 2nd chip number.


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## Bellaboo18 (12 July 2020)

Amymay said:



			I never ride any new horse immediately.  But that’s besides the point.  If I bought a ‘safe’ horse, as far as I’m concerned it can stand in the field for a month before I get on it and I wouldn’t expect it to stand up on its hind legs.  That is not normal behaviour.  So unless we’re not getting the full story and something pretty untoward was done to the horse whilst it was being ridden, I can’t see what you think the op has done so wrong with this horse 🤷🏻‍♀️
		
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I've pmd OP to explain my concerns. It wasn't leaving the horse in the field but the combination of that and feeding him up.


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## Bellaboo18 (12 July 2020)

indie1282 said:



			You sound like a very nice person and i do believe you had the horses best interests at heart and were guided by 'professionals' but it wasn't setting him up to succeed.

Horse arrives poor from Ireland - he was supposed to have been a quite schoolmaster, i would have ridden him quietly even if he was poor.
Then you fed him up - on Alfalfa which can cause a really extreme reaction in some horses, rendering some unrideable.
You sat in his field for the first week watching him - he needed to be doing something, working and learning even if it was groundwork to establish some sort of relationship.
Then when he got hives you continued to work him - maybe this was your YO's advice but i wouldn't have ridden him until they were sorted.

I'm confused by what outcome you want from this? The dealer offer to refund you and had a lorry in the UK to collect him but you said no way is he going back? So is sending him back still an option or no?

i think the posts about the horse being pts are extreme and the horse hasn't had a chance imo. I said it before but get him off ALL feed and leave him out in a field for a month. Then get a different pro in to ride him and let them assess him. Even if you dont feel safe riding him you could sell him on as a useful riding horse.

There is a lot of knowledge on this forum and i dont think anyone underestimates giving a new horse time but any horse that is ridden should be able to be tacked up and ridden straight from the lorry if need be. Yes they may take time to 'settle' in their surroundings but they should be ready to ride straight away.
		
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100% this


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## indie1282 (12 July 2020)

paddy555 said:



			I do see that you have done everything by the book. I am not criticising you at all. I think it is important that instead of taking comments as criticism you should realise they are not, they are trying to make sense of your situation in an attempt to help Prince.

Prince has gone from a thread where you were happy riding on 4th July to this one only a few days later. If he was a rearer/had serious problems etc etc etc why did both you and your daughter have such a nice time only a few days ago.

Sometimes you have to forget about the book and think outside the box. Horse keeping has little to do with following the book and doing all the vaccinations etc etc. That is just the accepted norm. It is about intuition. What has happened to cause this?
In your 4th July post you wrote that you had been out alone on country roads, met feral ponies, met cars and a hornet. He was calm. Life was fine.

A horse with such a serious problem would not have done that. At some stage in that ride he would have regressed into his previous nasty habits yet he didn't. Your daughter rode him.

One thing I hadn't noticed before about your post was he met a hornet. I met one several years ago, the horse got stung and was off work for 2 weeks. Looking at him may not have been very obvious but I have no doubt if I had ridden it would have been.

what is causing the hives. We have established you have done the right thing and called the vet. Had the right injection etc, changed the feed but how was/is Prince affected. He may not be or he may be.

Like many people if I had a pound for everytime someone tells me their vet/farrier/rider etc is an extremely respected horse person I would be rich as many others would.

You and your daughter rode Prince happily. Is your YO really that horse person?  I have no idea. It is however something to look at. Does Prince dis like men? He certainly won't be the first.
Please don't take this as criticism. It is not. It is trying to find a reason that does not involve either a bullet or sending back to Ireland and a bleak future.
He may well not be suitable for you but if a reason can be found he may be suitable for someone else.
		
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If your horse was a confirmed rearer then i agree with the above, he wouldn't have gone out quietly around the lanes without something happening imo. Also i know you say that your YO has decades of experience but it does not necessarily mean that the advice is right for this horse. Also how did he ride Prince? Was he forceful? Use a stick? Did he push him or get wound up when he napped/reared? As above there are a lot of horses that dont like men. 

What did the vet say about the hives? How long have you stopped the Alfalfa for? Horses are so sensitive to any little thing that sometimes you have to channel your inner Sherlock Holmes to try and decipher what is going on! 

You mention using a half pad - did the rearing start after you used this? I know you said that the saddler fitted the saddle with the pad but some horses dont like a half pad. One of mine will bronc in a half pad even when it's correctly fitted - take it off and he's fine.


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## be positive (12 July 2020)

Wishfilly said:



			Sorry, it's probably me where the idea of it being an ex-racehorse has come from, and that's only because I have seen similar scams before in a job I used to have. It's not just that ex-racers often have a lower value for various reasons. It's also to do with the fact that their racing names are (mostly) unique and that makes it relatively easy to track down their history online - I've also seen similar with other horses that have unique/unusual passport names.

Obviously I don't know if the horse is in fact an ex-racer, and the double microchip + duplicate passport may be a legitimate mistake as well (although the dealer's initial reaction suggests otherwise).

I didn't want to add confusion to the thread- but I do think it's likely OP has been deliberately scammed.

WRT the rearing, even if it is down to a particular person's way of riding, or feeding, or some other thing that can be easily solved, I think it's clear the horse has an extreme reaction to certain situations or is in a lot of pain (or possibly both). Even if the issue is solved, the behaviour may re-emerge next time the horse is stressed or may continue due to remembered pain- personally I'm not sure I'd ever feel comfortable putting a child on a horse that has reared and nearly gone over.
		
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I think you are probably correct but the suggestion seems to have taken over the facts that we do know, or at least what the OP understood before purchase, the whole situation does sound like a scam, it is easy enough to set in motion, find attractive cheap horse, make up a nice history, find gullible novice buyer, ideally a long way away so they don't try, get the money, send it off, hope for the best that it lands with someone who spends time getting to know it, falls in love and even if it goes pear shaped they want to do right by their horse so keep it, it is how bin end dealers work, for every good one that does work out well there will be more that do not but very few will be sent back so the dealer keeps going.

A horse that has genuinely been in nice private homes will not end up with this type of dealer very often, they will also not tend to rear when pushed unless they have been pushed too far previously, the YO may have pushed on but I have had many tricky horses in for schooling and very few would have reared just being asked to walk into a school, certainly not anything bought as a novice ride, the odd one may have been a bit nappy but nothing a sharp reminder would not sort out, the few that did go up never went right up apart from 1 with history and 1 from Ireland that reared if anyone approached a fence he was coming into, he had most likely been rapped but he never reared in any other situation.


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## Frumpoon (12 July 2020)

Kiera, I've pmed you, I can't think of anybody in Hampshire that I recommend but I do know of a couple of highly experienced, kind, sensible women trainers in oxon and bucks respectively. 

If you could box the horse to them and tell them what you've told us they would give you a sensible plan which might or might not include getting one of their also kind, sensible women work riders to sit on horse and then you would know if it is simply a yard/feed/allergy/heavy handed male rider issue


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## Pearlsasinger (12 July 2020)

Alfalfa can make some horses so extremely reactive that this behaviour does not surprise me.


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## Archangel (12 July 2020)

I have looked the photos posted of you riding him in the field. Can you do a bit of sleuthing and find out a bit more about him? 16 years old and two microchips, someone will know something.  The H&H sleuths are good at finding stuff out.

Most auctions have online catalogues so you could see what was said about him and follow up on the microchip/passport info.

Is his advert/video still up on the internet?  Have you looked on the dodgy dealers facebook page?

Alfalfa sent one of mine off her trolley. I am sure she actually thought she could fly at one point.


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## Keira 8888 (12 July 2020)

CanteringCarrot said:



			Not to hijack, but this could help the OP anyway, but what are legitimate reasons for a horse having 2 microchips? My not so creative brain can't think of any.
		
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Yes - I was wondering this too. X


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## doodle (12 July 2020)

I think solis microchip could have been lost. He had a pee sized lump on the wrong side of his neck just below his mane. Turns out this was his microchip (all vet could think was he moved at the wrong moment when it was implanted as a foal). So potentially if a vet just ran the scanner over the normal place it wouldn’t have been found.


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## KEK (12 July 2020)

Kamikaze said:



			I think solis microchip could have been lost. He had a pee sized lump on the wrong side of his neck just below his mane. Turns out this was his microchip (all vet could think was he moved at the wrong moment when it was implanted as a foal). So potentially if a vet just ran the scanner over the normal place it wouldn’t have been found.
		
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Microchips can definitely migrate, happens in dogs regularly. That's why we scan the whole body before implanting/when checking. They can also occasionally be faulty, but then I would generally not expect it to read.


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## Tally05 (13 July 2020)

Theres no point going round in circles about what has/hasn't been done. Shes learned her lesson about buying a horse unseen, I doubt she will do that again. The question now is what to do with Prince. She wont ever trust him with her daughter again..who would. Keira if you had trainer professionals look at him, vet investigations and wait for alfa to get out his system etc.. would you trust him enough to ride yourself again? Im just wondering if you are in a position for your daughter to have a pony for herself while you have Prince? It's an option if you dont want to send him back and can afford to keep two. What is it you want to do moving forward? Also.. is anyone thinking dealer acquired this horse on a five finger discount? Auctions all closed in lockdown, new passport, two microchips... x


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## Trouper (13 July 2020)

Goodness  I am getting confused/exhausted by this sad story.  OP you have done nothing wrong - bet there is no-one on here who has not been led into a bad experience by their lack of knowledge/experience at some time in their horse journey.   Don't be put off my folk saying that ex-racers/TBs are not for first time buyers - if you have good support and advice it can work well and some "sweet little Natives" can be the very devil if they want to!!!  
However, that aside, I am not getting a clear picture of what you actually want to do with Prince?  He has only been with you a short time so do you really think you know what is wrong with him?  For me, I would not be able to make a clear decision until I had the facts but I realise that we are all different.
Further down the line, when you begin the search for a safe horse, please have a look at the charities - the horses will be properly assessed, you will have their support going forward and it will not cost you nearly as much as buying unseen from Ireland.   Blue Cross, World Horse Welfare, Redwings, Hopton Re-hab and Rehoming, all have a good reputation for helping people find the right horse.
I hope you can move this forward soon - both for yourself and Prince.


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## mini_b (13 July 2020)

Jellymoon said:



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I know we’ve all made mistakes but there was a serious lack of judgement on this. I shared my thoughts.


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## Keira 8888 (13 July 2020)

Trouper said:



			Goodness  I am getting confused/exhausted by this sad story.  OP you have done nothing wrong - bet there is no-one on here who has not been led into a bad experience by their lack of knowledge/experience at some time in their horse journey.   Don't be put off my folk saying that ex-racers/TBs are not for first time buyers - if you have good support and advice it can work well and some "sweet little Natives" can be the very devil if they want to!!! 
However, that aside, I am not getting a clear picture of what you actually want to do with Prince?  He has only been with you a short time so do you really think you know what is wrong with him?  For me, I would not be able to make a clear decision until I had the facts but I realise that we are all different.
Further down the line, when you begin the search for a safe horse, please have a look at the charities - the horses will be properly assessed, you will have their support going forward and it will not cost you nearly as much as buying unseen from Ireland.   Blue Cross, World Horse Welfare, Redwings, Hopton Re-hab and Rehoming, all have a good reputation for helping people find the right horse.
I hope you can move this forward soon - both for yourself and Prince.
		
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Thanks for your advice - I will certainly look into that.

So I am torn between two decisions at the moment - getting a full medical work up (which I know may or may not bring up what is truly at the root of the problem here) OR sending him back to Ireland  direct to my cousin who I trust and who will let him enjoy a wonderful retirement.

I am considering everyone’s advice very carefully and will have to make a final decision v soon. Will let you know which way I go. Thanks so much for listening and your advice. I know it has been an exhausting thread - it feels like a rollercoaster at the moment. Thanks again x


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## milliepops (13 July 2020)

Jellymoon said:



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yes she made a mistake buying unseen, but she was not "sold" an ex racer, if the other threads are correct then she was sold a safe older horse that has been there & done that, and has since stopped riding the horse when it has proved to be something other than advertised.  I don't think social services need to do anything here!!


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## Pippity (13 July 2020)

Keira 8888 said:



			Thanks for your advice - I will certainly look into that.

So I am torn between two decisions at the moment - getting a full medical work up (which I know may or may not bring up what is truly at the root of the problem here) OR sending him back to Ireland  direct to my cousin who I trust and who will let him enjoy a wonderful retirement.

I am considering everyone’s advice very carefully and will have to make a final decision v soon. Will let you know which way I go. Thanks so much for listening and your advice. I know it has been an exhausting thread - it feels like a rollercoaster at the moment. Thanks again x
		
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If you've definitely decided not to send him back and have the money (bearing in mind insurance may not pay out), it's worth getting a vet work-up. I don't think it's likely you'll come across a quick and easy diagnosis and fix but you never know. Best option is that you'll end up with a ridable horse, even if it isn't you/your daughter who ride him. Retiring him with no idea what's causing his issues and no attempt to resolve them could mean that his wonderful retirement is full of pain.


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## Keira 8888 (13 July 2020)

Frumpoon said:



			Kiera, I've pmed you, I can't think of anybody in Hampshire that I recommend but I do know of a couple of highly experienced, kind, sensible women trainers in oxon and bucks respectively.

If you could box the horse to them and tell them what you've told us they would give you a sensible plan which might or might not include getting one of their also kind, sensible women work riders to sit on horse and then you would know if it is simply a yard/feed/allergy/heavy handed male rider issue
		
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Thank you for this x


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## WHWMo (13 July 2020)

I would suggest speaking to your vet about all of this- advice is free (in most decent practices!) and it would at least be worth checking if your insurance would be valid. I will say, normally accident/injury eg. Fracture is covered immediately but “illness”, which your issues would probably be classed as, will only be triggered after 2 or 4 weeks of cover. Your practice should know which brackets different insurance companies fall into.

It would also be worth just talking to them about finances if your insurance company won’t cover it. I work in a Veterinary hospital and if an owner comes in with a similar story to yours where they have tried their best and exhausted “normal” avenues but they are just outside of insurance etc then we will try our hardest to get the most out of their money. If you say “I have £500 how would you advise spending it?” then we will do a costing of work first and talk it through with the owner. You could probably get a scope and a couple of xrays for that whilst using the same sedation- it’s just up to you and your vet to decide WHAT to xray eg. limbs vs spine and if scoping is recommended based on history etc.

You should also be prepared to find nothing (as in, looking in the wrong places) or that you find something eg. Ulcers that are expensive to medicate and may not be the “rear inducing” problem. BUT we also have lots of owners come in crying and saying their horse needs to be PTS for rearing, biting, kicking etc and it turns out they have an old infected jaw fracture that needed xrays to find and a course of antibiotics to sort. Job done. Normal horse again. I’ve even seen PTS talk problems that just needed worming to sort!

You may also need to consider that an ex-hunter, eventer, RS horse that is (meant to be!)16 may also have rocket ship miles under their belt and may just need medication to help them in every day life. Arthritis can be very painful too.

Good luck!


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## Pearlsasinger (13 July 2020)

Keira 8888 said:



			Thanks for your advice - I will certainly look into that.

So I am torn between two decisions at the moment - getting a full medical work up (which I know may or may not bring up what is truly at the root of the problem here) OR sending him back to Ireland  direct to my cousin who I trust and who will let him enjoy a wonderful retirement.

I am considering everyone’s advice very carefully and will have to make a final decision v soon. Will let you know which way I go. Thanks so much for listening and your advice. I know it has been an exhausting thread - it feels like a rollercoaster at the moment. Thanks again x
		
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Can you explain why you didn't ask your cousin to visit the horse at the dealer's yard, so that you weren't buying unseen, as the cousin is at least in the same country?  And who advised you to ride the horse that had just been treated for hives?  Was it the treating vet, or the YO?


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## Keira 8888 (13 July 2020)

Pippity said:



			If you've definitely decided not to send him back and have the money (bearing in mind insurance may not pay out), it's worth getting a vet work-up. I don't think it's likely you'll come across a quick and easy diagnosis and fix but you never know. Best option is that you'll end up with a ridable horse, even if it isn't you/your daughter who ride him. Retiring him with no idea what's causing his issues and no attempt to resolve them could mean that his wonderful retirement is full of pain.
		
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Yep good point. It’s just he seems happy as a clam in the field - bright and alert, no kicking at his stomach. When he rolls he goes all the way over which someone commented was a good sign. It’s only when someone rides him outside his field that the problems start. X


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## CanteringCarrot (13 July 2020)

So, I have a thought here. There is no way, in my corner of the world, that one would be able to purchase a mid-teens gelding, that is safe, been there & done that, all for 2500. The price of the horse alone would make me skeptical as a truly safe and experienced horse that is sound should bring a lot more. Then again, I am not super familiar with the market in Ireland. This is total hindsight and somewhat irrelevant but just a note to remember in future shopping endeavors that if it sounds too good to be true...well...


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## Keira 8888 (13 July 2020)

Pearlsasinger said:



			Can you explain why you didn't ask your cousin to visit the horse at the dealer's yard, so that you weren't buying unseen, as the cousin is at least in the same country?
		
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Sadly no, that is a good point. I had videos of absolutely everything from Prince being showered to hacking on the roads alone. Bring tacked up, hooves picked out etc.. Being caught in the field. All the things that I had read were important to assess I asked for videos of. Naively I knew nothing about Bute at this point. This is in no way a defence of what I did, I know I’ve been a plonker.


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## CanteringCarrot (13 July 2020)

Another option could be to put the horse on the field for a year at your cousin's and then have a pro (with full disclosure of prior issues) try to restart him after a year or so of "Dr. Green" But I'm not sure this would be a good plan at all. Totally depends on what is actually "wrong" with him.  

I can completely understand you never wanting to get on this horse again. I can't fault you for that!


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## Keira 8888 (13 July 2020)

CanteringCarrot said:



			So, I have a thought here. There is no way, in my corner of the world, that one would be able to purchase a mid-teens gelding, that is safe, been there & done that, all for 2500. The price of the horse alone would make me skeptical as a truly safe and experienced horse that is sound should bring a lot more. Then again, I am not super familiar with the market in Ireland. This is total hindsight and somewhat irrelevant but just a note to remember in future shopping endeavors that if it sounds too good to be true...well...
		
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yes exactly this! I just couldn’t find anything suitable for my budget in England (I now know my budget needs to be way higher if I want a safe, older horse) So when I saw the advert I couldnt quite believe it, especially as the dealer was so good at taking videos of everything I wanted to see. I thought I had got so lucky because of his age or perhaps the fact that he now wanted a quieter life as a happy hacker. Lessons learnt.


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## ihatework (13 July 2020)

Keira 8888 said:



			yes exactly this! I just couldn’t find anything suitable for my budget in England (I now know my budget needs to be way higher if I want a safe, older horse) So when I saw the advert I couldnt quite believe it, especially as the dealer was so good at taking videos of everything I wanted to see. I thought I had got so lucky because of his age or perhaps the fact that he now wanted a quieter life as a happy hacker. Lessons learnt. 

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I went back and looked at your old posts - it’s not constructive to say it told you so’ but you have to understand dealers are in this to make money. To do it right, source and pay for a horse, keep it and assess it for a while, then deal with the sales process - nothing to be made on 2.5k is there? 
Genuine dealers you can at least double that figure if not more.

That said, I think you could find a nice kind older horse to happy hack with. From a private owner, locally, via word of mouth whose priority is placing the horse in a kind home. You may need to manage medical issues that come with age, mild arthritis/Cushings etc but for the right horse it could be worth it.

Id suggest that when Princes fate is sealed, you advertise on nfed and see what materialises. If possible start with a loan or LWVTB.


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## be positive (13 July 2020)

CanteringCarrot said:



			So, I have a thought here. There is no way, in my corner of the world, that one would be able to purchase a mid-teens gelding, that is safe, been there & done that, all for 2500. The price of the horse alone would make me skeptical as a truly safe and experienced horse that is sound should bring a lot more. Then again, I am not super familiar with the market in Ireland. This is total hindsight and somewhat irrelevant but just a note to remember in future shopping endeavors that if it sounds too good to be true...well...
		
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The price would not be far off for a 16 year old high mileage horse that is unlikely to pass a vetting but may still be fit enough to hack, potter about doing light work, not many of that age would pass a 5 stage, a bigger horse without some background/ competition record even with prices being sky high at the moment I don't think would be worth any more, a smaller horse, large pony will usually command a higher price as there are far more potential buyers and they do tend to stay sounder, a bit of generalisation but if they have only been in relatively easy work all their lives they will not have the wear and tear a former hunter/ eventer/ RS horse will probably have.


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## paddy555 (13 July 2020)

before deciding anything I would take up offers, such as Frumpoon's and no doubt others have offered, take Prince somewhere where there are experienced girls who are sympathetic and able to assess him. Find out to start with if he has a behavioural problem. You need someone experienced, who is kind as I suspect he is a very sensitive horse, and  who can take a look at the situation and tell you what you are looking at. Someone experienced with TB's and ex racers which he could well be will be able to provide useful info. Then you can decide where to go. 

In the meantime what have you learnt from the 2 chips and passports? have you researched them and do they throw any light on the situation?


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## alexomahony (13 July 2020)

Archangel said:



			My own feeling is that the ones that go straight up so high they teeter or go over are at the end of their tether - pain/fear/pressure. 

A full vet work up would be my first port of call (the one that went over with me was pain related).
		
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^^ I think this too. If he's a kind horse in the field and a nice person when you're on the ground, his behavior under saddle sounds very out of character x


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## Lillian_paddington (13 July 2020)

I do feel for you OP because what’s best for you in this situation is not what’s best for the horse.
Sorry if I’ve missed it but have the hives been treated by a vet? Are they gone now? If you don’t know what they are/what caused them you can’t be sure he isn’t in pain/discomfort from them. 
I know others have said this but taking him off hard feed is a good idea, it may well be the cause of your problems.  
Whatever you do next I’d start with those things. 
The best thing for you is to send Prince back and get your refund. Unfortunately you’ll have to accept that this means Prince will go back to a dodgy dealer and then on to another novice buyer. He - very sadly - is not likely to have a happy ending in this scenario. 
The best thing for Prince is for you to chuck money at him - start with treating the hives, then a full lameness work up, kissing spines and ulcers checked first. And then if nothing is found, or he is successfully treated, a sympathetic pro rider for a couple months to sort out his confusion and get him going nicely, whilst you learn everything you can about horse care whilst he’s away. Then - if the pro is if the opinion that he’s suitable for you - educated horse and educated rider will hopefully get on with no more major issues. Do you know yet if your insurance would cover a work up at this point? 
Obviously it’s going to be expensive, and only you know if you can afford that. If you can’t, sending him to your cousin in Ireland could work. Would he have other horses around, is your cousin experienced?


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## Gingerwitch (13 July 2020)

It may be pain or it may be a bloke thing or it could be any amount of issues. Get a vet ask some difficult questions and don't always believe years past experience yard owners always know best for your horse. You have a totally different way with the horse that put horse under quite sympathetic questions or can we do this please, not a YOU WILL NOW.  Some experienced riders know how to pressure a horse and back off. Some like to look like God at the detriment of the horse and the owners confidence as they live an ego trip.  Sometimes the ego trip can backfire go all.
Good luck in whatever you decide


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## FestiveFuzz (13 July 2020)

Keira I think you've handled yourself extremely well on this thread. Sure buying your first horse unseen from Ireland might not have been your smartest move, but people make mistakes and it is clear from your responses that you're trying to do right by Prince.

Horses by their very nature are stoic creatures and don't always show their discomfort as in a former life it would have made them easy pickings for a predator if they were outwardly showing their pain. Therefore regardless of whether he rolls completely over in the field or isn't kicking at his stomach, I really would recommend that if you do decide to keep him (whether than be with you or as a field ornament with your cousin) that you do at least try to ascertain that he's not in any pain or discomfort before either exploring your options or retiring him to pasture. 

From what you've said I'm not wholly convinced he's a dangerous horse with no hope of coming right, but equally, I can fully understand why you would be reticent to get on him again after a rear like that. There's absolutely no shame in deciding you don't want to ride him again either, at the end of the day you and your daughter's safety has to come first. But, if you aren't going to send him back for a refund I do think you have a duty of care to at the very least ensure he's not in pain, even if you don't plan to ever ride him again.


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## Amirah (13 July 2020)

It does seem like things were going along nicely until the YO got involved with his lunging and riding. Keira did you ever watch him riding/working your horse? Maybe he's the reason that he now wants to stay in the field where he feels safe. He obviously now thinks that leaving the field is a terrible idea if you can't get him in without a hand clapper walking behind. 

Watching 'professionals' at work can be a real eye opener.


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## LaurenBay (13 July 2020)

Think some people are being very harsh to OP. She has admitted over and over she has made a mistake, I think its clear that she would not have bought the Horse if the problems were known.

I was also once a very naive first time buyer, I spent over the odds for a green 5 year old, from someone who i now believe to be a dealer. Luckily it turned out fine for me and we had 8 wonderful years together, But it could have easily gone the other way.


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## Amirah (13 July 2020)

I just don't see the point of telling people that they've made a mistake/acted like an idiot etc etc. It serves no useful purpose and discourages people from asking for advice. They are where they are and need help moving forward.


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## dorsetladette (13 July 2020)

Just sat and read the whole thread. My word we have some folk on HHO who have clearly never made a mistake and were born with all the knowledge they have now. 

OP if you are in the Dorset side of the new forest I know of a couple of professionals who I could suggest to you to help re-school your horse. I don't think the set up he is currently in is doing you any favours especially now the YO has more or less washed his hands of your horse (he could be potentially making the situation worse). 

If I were in your boots and didn't want to send him back. I think I'd move him to a different yard (with lots of turn out and a supportive YO (may take some research)) get him checked over by a vet for pain, ulcers etc. taken him off all hard feed (maybe give him something like fast fibre and a calmer/balancer if needed) give him a couple of weeks off ridden work to get to know and trust his surroundings and them ask the YO/professional to restart him and teach you to ride your horse. 

If this didn't work they could potentially find a suitable home for him and help you find something more suitable for you and you daughter.


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## Mahoganybay (13 July 2020)

Have been following this thread, and wanted to give my story in the hope that it helps the OP!

Just over two years ago I bought a most beautiful Warmblood mare from a lady who bred her, I did due diligence and watched her being ridden, had an experienced friend ride her, rode her in the school, had a second visit where I hacked her out.

Saw numerous videos of her being ridden at different venues, Dressage, jumping, loading in a trailer, horse box. Had a 5 stage vetting and Facebook stalked the owners post for even the slightest wrong doing. All was good so I proceeded to pay a tidy sum for my perfect horse.

4 weeks into ownership, we did a dressage comp and she was foot perfect, so I booked the same venue 2 weeks later. All hell broke loose trying to get her in the trailer, rearing, biting, bolting. I then spent the next 3 months working on her being relaxed, thinking great I’ve cracked it, off we go again.

I booked a Polework clinic and she went ballistic, bolted across the arena broncked and sent me sky high. Really not what I had signed up for and I was terrified of her. Very promptly taken to a dressage yard to ascertain what we could do so I could sell her, there was no way I was getting back on her.

Cutting a long story very short, 18 months later and we have finally got to the bottom of some pain, which whilst not excruciating pain for her was just enough to overspill her stress bucket. Along with the change of home, owner etc etc.

I have owned horses for 20+ years so wouldn’t class myself as a novice, but I did obviously miss some signs that she was giving me, putting it down to a new horse testing the boundaries 😏. 

Yes, the OP has made some mistakes (haven’t we all), and who can blame her for sending the horse back. Not everyone has the right support, finances and sheer determination to overcome such issues.


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## Ownedby4horses (13 July 2020)

Jellymoon said:



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Good grief, From this post, it will be clear to the whole internet who exactly "needs to get a grip".  it is very easy to sit and type and be nasty and there is absolutely no place for an attitude such as yours. 

You nasty, unsympathetic individual. You must be extremely gifted in life, as obviously you have never made a mistake.  Despite what you appear to believe about yourself, people just arent born with "horse sense" and there are so many sellers out there just waiting to scam a novice owner.  The OP, has been so honest about what has happened and I'm certain she realises it wasnt the best decision, however, there is absolutely no need for this attitude towards anyone, let alone a stranger who has got into a bad situation and has come on here asking for help and advice.

You must be an absolute joy to be around in real life.  I suggest you wind your neck in and attempt to find even a tiny part of yourself that can be civil to others.


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## CanteringCarrot (13 July 2020)

I think it's kind of a case of you don't know what you don't know. 

I do think the OP put some effort in trying to find a suitable mount. I can't fault her and say that she just bought a horse that looked pretty on the internet or something like that.


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## Amirah (13 July 2020)

One of mine (the sweetest one in fact) was sold (and then refunded) to a previous home before coming to me.  She was so difficult in that particular home the new owner couldn't cope and sent her back.  She's been an absolute angel and no trouble at all here for the last ten years. There are so many things that can send horses over the edge, apart from pain. I'm not saying he's not in pain but it could be any number of factors.


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## Amirah (13 July 2020)

Maybe Jellymoon is just having a bad day? Surely no one with such a squishy username can be a truly mean person ☺


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## CanteringCarrot (13 July 2020)

I mean, it's fine to express an opposing opinion, but a little bit of tact goes a long way.


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## Amirah (13 July 2020)

Accidental tactlessness seems to occur a lot on here, sadly 😊


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## Hm77 (13 July 2020)

OP - I'm very close to the area your horse lives in. If you decide to go down the vet route and would like the details of one who I believe will give you an honest opinion I'm happy to give you a name.


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## Keira 8888 (13 July 2020)

paddy555 said:



			before deciding anything I would take up offers, such as Frumpoon's and no doubt others have offered, take Prince somewhere where there are experienced girls who are sympathetic and able to assess him. Find out to start with if he has a behavioural problem. You need someone experienced, who is kind as I suspect he is a very sensitive horse, and  who can take a look at the situation and tell you what you are looking at. Someone experienced with TB's and ex racers which he could well be will be able to provide useful info. Then you can decide where to go.

In the meantime what have you learnt from the 2 chips and passports? have you researched them and do they throw any light on the situation?
		
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I am awaiting a call back from the vet today as he made a note of the second chip number - once I have it I shall start investigating.
I have just been going through the passport in detail (I know I should have done this at the very start) and the address of the dealer is in there as who “applied” for the passport but the owner section has been left blank.

I have just had a message from the husband of the lady I have been dealing with. He was very aggressive and has done a turnaround on what his wife originally said when she offered a full refund (remember I never even asked for a refund...just details of previous owners so I could track as much history as possible  - the refund was offered the minute they found out about the two microchips) 

So his new approach is - he has decided that since I was “passive aggressive” in my conversations which his wife (which I absolutely wasn’t, I couldnt have been nicer!!) if I accept the refund I will then become the “seller” and he the “buyer”. If it then turns out that Prince is ridden OK in Ireland he will persue me legally as the new “seller!” Sweet Jesus! I just can’t keep up with all this! I don’t want to take the refund anyway - I want to give him to my cousin or another kind lady who has offered to have him (a person I trust who will not sell him on) BUT my husband is determined he wants the money back and it’s beginning to cause a big rift between us. I’m pretty sure this guy is talking absolute codswallop - he is also saying that his dealership run by himself and his wife (the one the horse was sold from on their official Facebook page) and also the name and address that appears in the passport under who “requested” the passport WASNT the people who sold me the horse. It was the lady who works for them and it was a “private sale” between me and her!! The horses official name on the passport even includes their stable name! Everything was done with their name attached to it! He is crazy!! I’m beginning to lose my cool here and seriously considering pouring a very large gin and tonic 😫


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## FestiveFuzz (13 July 2020)

Keira 8888 said:



			I am awaiting a call back from the vet today as he made a note of the second chip number - once I have it I shall start investigating.
I have just been going through the passport in detail (I know I should have done this at the very start) and the address of the dealer is in there as who “applied” for the passport but the owner section has been left blank.

I have just had a message from the husband of the lady I have been dealing with. He was very aggressive and has done a turnaround on what his wife originally said when she offered a full refund (remember I never even asked for a refund...just details of previous owners so I could track as much history as possible  - the refund was offered the minute they found out about the two microchips)

So his new approach is - he has decided that since I was “passive aggressive” in my conversations which his wife (which I absolutely wasn’t, I couldnt have been nicer!!) if I accept the refund I will then become the “seller” and he the “buyer”. If it then turns out that Prince is ridden OK in Ireland he will persue me legally as the new “seller!” Sweet Jesus! I just can’t keep up with all this! I don’t want to take the refund anyway - I want to give him to my cousin or another kind lady who has offered to have him (a person I trust who will not sell him on) BUT my husband is determined he wants the money back and it’s beginning to cause a big rift between us. I’m pretty sure this guy is talking absolute codswallop - he is also saying that his dealership run by himself and his wife (the one the horse was sold from on their official Facebook page) and also the name and address that appears in the passport under who “requested” the passport WASNT the people who sold me the horse. It was the lady who works for them and it was a “private sale” between me and her!! The horses official name on the passport even includes their stable name! Everything was done with their name attached to it! He is crazy!! I’m beginning to lose my cool here and seriously considering pouring a very large gin and tonic 😫
		
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It definitely sounds like a large gin and tonic kinda day! I can't remember if this has already been asked, but are you a BHS member? It might be worth having a chat with their legal team if you are (or joining as a member if not) just so you know where you stand from a legal perspective, especially if your husband is going to push for Prince to be returned.


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## emilylou (13 July 2020)

^^ dont worry about that. It would never stand up in court. Make sure you keep hold of all written correspondence as evidence.
But honestly, if I were you, I would send Prince back to the people you bought him from. Not the best outcome for the horse, but your other alternatives are: large vet bills, keep a horse you cant ride, gift him or PTS. None of which are great. 
If you bought from a dealer, there will be no repercussions for you when you return him, just make sure you get the ££ before he goes on the lorry and ignore all their threats etc.
If this is causing rifts in your family then sorry, no horse is worth that heartache. Yes, you made a mistake. Yes, poor horse. But if seller is offering refund then take it and move on, ultimately the responsibility lies with them for selling an unsuitable horse.


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## ihatework (13 July 2020)

Unfortunately this is quite normal tactics for dodgy dealers. Get aggressive and intimating and hope the buyer shuts up and goes away. It works a lot of the time, especially if you have purchased from outside your country.

Yes he is talking rubbish.

Don’t rush into anything too quickly.
Get Prince off whatever you are feeding him (just in case it is that). Get the second microchip and trace his details. Find out his history from old owners and hopefully it will make your position, and his fate, a bit clearer.


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## doodle (13 July 2020)

I agree with large gin and tonic. Have you posted in the dodgy dealer Facebook sites to see if the dealer has “history”. Also you can put his name in on racing post and see if he is (or isn’t) and ex racer.


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## ycbm (13 July 2020)

Keira 8888 said:



			I am awaiting a call back from the vet today as he made a note of the second chip number - once I have it I shall start investigating.
I have just been going through the passport in detail (I know I should have done this at the very start) and the address of the dealer is in there as who “applied” for the passport but the owner section has been left blank.

I have just had a message from the husband of the lady I have been dealing with. He was very aggressive and has done a turnaround on what his wife originally said when she offered a full refund (remember I never even asked for a refund...just details of previous owners so I could track as much history as possible  - the refund was offered the minute they found out about the two microchips) 

So his new approach is - he has decided that since I was “passive aggressive” in my conversations which his wife (which I absolutely wasn’t, I couldnt have been nicer!!) if I accept the refund I will then become the “seller” and he the “buyer”. If it then turns out that Prince is ridden OK in Ireland he will persue me legally as the new “seller!” Sweet Jesus! I just can’t keep up with all this! I don’t want to take the refund anyway - I want to give him to my cousin or another kind lady who has offered to have him (a person I trust who will not sell him on) BUT my husband is determined he wants the money back and it’s beginning to cause a big rift between us. I’m pretty sure this guy is talking absolute codswallop - he is also saying that his dealership run by himself and his wife (the one the horse was sold from on their official Facebook page) and also the name and address that appears in the passport under who “requested” the passport WASNT the people who sold me the horse. It was the lady who works for them and it was a “private sale” between me and her!! The horses official name on the passport even includes their stable name! Everything was done with their name attached to it! He is crazy!! I’m beginning to lose my cool here and seriously considering pouring a very large gin and tonic 😫
		
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He plans to sue you for a horse you sell to him being better than you said it would be?

🤣😂🤣😂🤣😂

Send him back Keira, it's not worth a marital rift over, and it will punish the seller and protect horses like him in future.  

.


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## indie1282 (13 July 2020)

Keira 8888 said:



			I am awaiting a call back from the vet today as he made a note of the second chip number - once I have it I shall start investigating.
I have just been going through the passport in detail (I know I should have done this at the very start) and the address of the dealer is in there as who “applied” for the passport but the owner section has been left blank.

I have just had a message from the husband of the lady I have been dealing with. He was very aggressive and has done a turnaround on what his wife originally said when she offered a full refund (remember I never even asked for a refund...just details of previous owners so I could track as much history as possible  - the refund was offered the minute they found out about the two microchips)

So his new approach is - he has decided that since I was “passive aggressive” in my conversations which his wife (which I absolutely wasn’t, I couldnt have been nicer!!) if I accept the refund I will then become the “seller” and he the “buyer”. If it then turns out that Prince is ridden OK in Ireland he will persue me legally as the new “seller!” Sweet Jesus! I just can’t keep up with all this! I don’t want to take the refund anyway - I want to give him to my cousin or another kind lady who has offered to have him (a person I trust who will not sell him on) BUT my husband is determined he wants the money back and it’s beginning to cause a big rift between us. I’m pretty sure this guy is talking absolute codswallop - he is also saying that his dealership run by himself and his wife (the one the horse was sold from on their official Facebook page) and also the name and address that appears in the passport under who “requested” the passport WASN'T the people who sold me the horse. It was the lady who works for them and it was a “private sale” between me and her!! The horses official name on the passport even includes their stable name! Everything was done with their name attached to it! He is crazy!! I’m beginning to lose my cool here and seriously considering pouring a very large gin and tonic 😫
		
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OP i am going to be very direct with you now. Both myself and others on here have asked how your pro YO rode him and you haven't answered. I am betting that he is a hard rider and most likely gave the horse a few cracks with the stick to ' get him going'  some horses will not tolerate this sort of behaviour and if pressured may go up. Bear in mind that you never had any problems with the horse until he rode him. And it's not because your horse 'likes' you better, it's probably because you treated him calmly and he responded. I fear that your YO has made this problem escalate and now he is saying he wont ride him because his method hasn't worked and he is now labelling the horse dangerous.

Also you dont seem keen to get another pro in to ride him? I understand that you may feel awkward getting someone else in but if your YO cant ride him then you have to try someone else. Also have you taken him off ALL feed? the Alfalfa may have caused this even. I just think that you should explore these options before spending money on a vet work up, the costs there can spiral very quickly.

Unfortunately if your husband wants his money back asap then your only choice is to pursue a refund with the dealer.

Please dont take this post as criticism because you are a novice owner who sadly has had poor advice from so called professionals and i really do feel for you.

ETA i think that it's BLATANTLY clear that the dealer is hiding something and is trying to bully/scare you in to keeping the horse, and there is definitely something fishy going on. I dont have a lot of legal knowledge but if you contact the BHS i believe they have a legal helpline and may be able to offer you some advice.


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## Trouper (13 July 2020)

MMm  I am not sure dodgy dealers are "sensitive" enough to learn from a bad transaction that lands back with them!


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## ihatework (13 July 2020)

Indie1282 I completely get why you posted that but I just don’t think anyone here can make those sorts of assumptions.

Yes it’s true a novice horse owner cannot tell a good pro from a bad pro.

Yes it’s true a bad pro might go in heavy handed and create a problem.

But it’s also true that there are many very good pros who if they refuse to get back on its worth taking note!!

There are also many crock horses that if you were to bumble them out and ask nothing of them might just about cope, but the minute anything is expected of them physically then it all unravels.

I just think the underlying thing here is the double microchip/passport. Someone, somewhere down the line has likely tried to hide this horses history. There is usually a darn good reason for that.


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## Archangel (13 July 2020)

The husband is talking bollocks.  
Are you a BHS Gold member?  Worth a call to them just confirm the bollocks.

What a nightmare.


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## Caol Ila (13 July 2020)

I've been following this thread. What a mess, and I feel for the OP.

The bit about claiming Keira is the 'seller' and legally pursuing her for something is bollocks. But surely the dealer's argument that this was a 'private sale' between Keira and one of the dealer's employees is an attempt to wriggle out of being legally required to take the horse back and refund the money. If Keira chooses to return the horse, she might need the BHS' legal advice, as it looks as though the dealers are prepared to make it messy for her.

I can totally empathize with wanting to try to figure out what's going on with the horse. That's probably the dumb thing I would do. And I don't think the dealer would 'learn his lesson' if he took the horse back. He'd probably flog it to the next unsuspecting newbie.


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## Flame_ (13 July 2020)

Caol Ila said:



			I can totally empathize with wanting to try to figure out what's going on with the horse. That's probably the dumb thing I would do. And I don't think the dealer would 'learn his lesson' if he took the horse back. He'd probably flog it to the next unsuspecting newbie.
		
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I am as obsessive as it gets over deducing horse puzzles, but it is a ridiculous route to go down if a refund is on the table. Plus IME for all the time, money and emotional effort you can pour into understanding why a horse isn't doing what you think it ought be it will probably never end up doing whatever that is, you might just be lucky enough to get a reason!

No the dealer won't learn anything, but he'll be a bit put out rather than succeeding in robbing this particular customer.

Stand your ground if you want your money back, buckle up for a miserable, soul-sucking experience if you go down the route of vets and pros trying to fix the horse.


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## The unicorn (13 July 2020)

He sounds like a very doggy  dealer when they find out stuff they don’t want you to know they get very aggressive as a result. It would not surprise me if the horse is stolen or there is some type of ownership despite linked to the horse. Hanse why there is two microchips to prevent you finding the history on the horse. Don’t let him away with it stand you ground if you want your money back.


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## KittenInTheTree (13 July 2020)

Keira 8888 said:



			I don’t want to take the refund anyway - I want to give him to my cousin or another kind lady who has offered to have him (a person I trust who will not sell him on) BUT my husband is determined he wants the money back and it’s beginning to cause a big rift between us.
		
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Is your husband also prepared to magically take on any future guilt/depression/self-doubt that returning this horse for a refund may cause you? Make the decision based on what you can happily live with, not on what other people say would be easy for them to do.


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## indie1282 (13 July 2020)

ihatework said:



			Indie1282 I completely get why you posted that but I just don’t think anyone here can make those sorts of assumptions.

Yes it’s true a novice horse owner cannot tell a good pro from a bad pro.

Yes it’s true a bad pro might go in heavy handed and create a problem.

But it’s also true that there are many very good pros who if they refuse to get back on its worth taking note!!

There are also many crock horses that if you were to bumble them out and ask nothing of them might just about cope, but the minute anything is expected of them physically then it all unravels.

I just think the underlying thing here is the double microchip/passport. Someone, somewhere down the line has likely tried to hide this horses history. There is usually a darn good reason for that.
		
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The reason i posted it is because the OP doesn't seem to want to answer any question either myself or other posters put about how the pro rode the horse. which makes me think that he was hard on the horse and the OP does not want to say. 

But you can tell the difference between good and bad. My mum has never sat on a horse in her life but if she saw a rider, pro or not, hitting and riding a horse in an aggressive manner that it would have every reason to try and ditch it's rider.. It also begs the question of what is considered a good pro? Is that someone who gets the job done no matter the cost? Or someone who takes a more holistic approach? But that is a thread for another time...

He may well be a crock horse BUT writing him off to be PTS doesn't sit well with me nor i suspect the OP. I think the double microchip may be something more sinister but that doesn't mean that the horse is instantly a write off. I just cannot understand why a second pro riding him will not be considered?? It's fairly inexpensive and it is a second set of eyes on the horse. 

FWIW i think the OP has been badly let down by the seller and professionals and i feel for her. I dont feel i have anymore to add to this thread but i really hope there is a good outcome at the end, for the horses sake at least.


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## Amirah (13 July 2020)

I doubt you'd get your money back without a trip to small claims court by the sound of it. 

I have come across some truly awful 'pros'. I wouldn't think let anyone ride one of mine without being there to see what they did. There could possibly be very little wrong with Prince once the hives and alfalfa have gone, he was fine for the op to hack out alone past scary objects initially and he has a kind eye (in an anxious face). 

Dunno about your hubby Keira but a well timed tear and a trembly lip works beautifully on mine (apologies to all the feminists I've just deeply offended ☺). He once referred to one of my projects as "your stupid horse who I think is absolutely mad". She's still here twenty years later getting an apple off him every morning.


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## Pearlsasinger (13 July 2020)

We had 4 horses, from 14.3 to 16.3, at livery almost 30 yrs ago.  We used to give them seaweed as a supplement.  On one occasion, the brand that I usually bought was out of stock, so I got a bag of unbranded seaweed.  The horses didn't seem to notice any difference.  About a week later we went to bring the horses in, in the evening and every one of them was virtually unhandleable, standing on their back legs, front legs, doing star jumps, standing still and refusing to move or rushing forwards.  It was horrendous and scary.  These were 4 generally biddable horses who were being asked to walk across a couple of fields to their stables, as they did every evening.  The vet who knew the horses well, felt that it was probably some kind of mould-poisoning from the seaweed.

I will be amazed if the alfalfa isn't at the root of Prince's problems, although I do think the dealer is as dodgy as all get out and I would want to find out everything possible about the original microchip.


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## Alwaysmoretoknow (13 July 2020)

Kiera I really feel for you. Nobody is born knowing anything about horses and the only reason we learn is that another person and horses take the time and have the patience and experience to teach us. Some of us are lucky to have this help as children so that we have some experience before we are old enough to make our own decisions - others of us are not so fortunate and have a steeper learning curve when we enter the world of horses. Despite having been in the equestrian industry for over 40 years I'm still dismayed by how much I still don't know any how many mistakes I can still make. Your compassion for the poor horse you seem to have been mis-sold is truely commendable. If it would be any help in your current situation I am about a 45 minute slow drive in a lorry/trailer from you and you are welcome to bring Prince to me to live out with or next door to my retirees for a while and maybe take the pressure of you for a while. I live on site and the only conditions would be that he is ok with electric fencing and has his back shoes removed. We don't have crab flies here and it is chalk (dry) grazing.


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## Tarragon (13 July 2020)

There are some truly lovely and helpful people on this forum


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## Amirah (13 July 2020)

Alwaysmoretoknow that is so kind of you, this forum can be amazing.


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## paddy555 (13 July 2020)

Amirah said:



			I doubt you'd get your money back without a trip to small claims court by the sound of it.

I have come across some truly awful 'pros'. I wouldn't think let anyone ride one of mine without being there to see what they did. There could possibly be very little wrong with Prince once the hives and alfalfa have gone, he was fine for the op to hack out alone past scary objects initially and he has a kind eye (in an anxious face).

Dunno about your hubby Keira but a well timed tear and a trembly lip works beautifully on mine (apologies to all the feminists I've just deeply offended ☺). He once referred to one of my projects as "your stupid horse who I think is absolutely mad". She's still here twenty years later getting an apple off him every morning.
		
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LOL Amirah   don't need the tears for mine. It would be more a case of prising the horse off him. Once it has arrived he would never give  up on it whatever the problems. We have far too many horses. 

on a serious note Keira there are so many considerations here. Is the dealer  going to refund you. Really? in the real world is that actually going to happen? You should have the name of the vendor on the receipt and also on your bank account/cheque however you paid for him. How are you going to get your money back if you go down that route? Court action bearing in mind he is in Ireland? what is the cost of that? is your OH going to be happy paying legal costs. You may be lucky and get a bank transfer but I suspect more likely if he agreed the money would not be forthcoming or at least not before the lorry arrived to collect Prince. Then there would be the situation of Prince has gone and reclaiming the money. 

The dealer is dodgy. We all agree on something. Have you googled the dealer, his wife, his stud and his employee if you have details? Have you googled the name on the passport. This may simply be a name they gave him for the passport but maybe it will tell you something else? 

If your vet found both microchips then I wonder why the dealers vet didn't find one already implanted. Was this the vet who vetted Prince? Could have been careless or perhaps it is a regular occurrence. Have you googled the vet? there are disgraced vets. 

Just because the dealer got a cheap horse that he  flogged on to you doesn't mean the horse has a problem. He could well have but equally he could have come from anywhere. Someone who wanted to hide his problems and get some quick cash for him or someone genuine who just sold their old horse. Or an ex racehorse or any number of scams.
Until you get the 1st micro chip number I think you are stuck. If you can find the original owner or breeder you may be able to see his real name/parents etc. Googling that may tell you his history, if he raced etc. 

I am afraid I do share Indie and Amirah's concerns about your pro rider. Have you bought a horse with a problem history or have you bought a horse that has acquired his problem since he arrived. That is not due to your own mismanagement (I must stress that)  but down to either being ridden with unexplained hives or by your pro rider. 

I appreciate your inexperience and the word "pro" means an expert but it doesn't always. If you take a pro, especially a man with an ego, who is going to get a problem horse working it can end badly if that horse is sensitive. It can go very badly wrong. You take a horse who is perhaps playing up a little and turn him into a wreck. I know that because the first horse I bought was similar to Prince. (I was not the rider with the ego BTW )

I too don't understand why you don't want a 2nd set of eyes to see if he can be sorted. It doesn't have to be at your yard if you would rather the rider didn't know. You could take him somewhere to get some assistance.


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## maya2008 (13 July 2020)

Just as a thought - if you do eventually have to give up on him for whatever reason, perhaps buying something smaller with a known local history via pony club perhaps (e.g. most adults would fit fine on a 14.2/15hh New Forest cross) would give you more security next time. A large pony would also be easier for your daughter to compete when she is ready.   Apologies if you are 6ft and that isn’t an option! We have had some amazing NF crosses - perfect for a novice, looked after children even at a young age and generally had/have amazing personalities.


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## Keira 8888 (13 July 2020)

Alwaysmoretoknow said:



			Kiera I really feel for you. Nobody is born knowing anything about horses and the only reason we learn is that another person and horses take the time and have the patience and experience to teach us. Some of us are lucky to have this help as children so that we have some experience before we are old enough to make our own decisions - others of us are not so fortunate and have a steeper learning curve when we enter the world of horses. Despite having been in the equestrian industry for over 40 years I'm still dismayed by how much I still don't know any how many mistakes I can still make. Your compassion for the poor horse you seem to have been mis-sold is truely commendable. If it would be any help in your current situation I am about a 45 minute slow drive in a lorry/trailer from you and you are welcome to bring Prince to me to live out with or next door to my retirees for a while and maybe take the pressure of you for a while. I live on site and the only conditions would be that he is ok with electric fencing and has his back shoes removed. We don't have crab flies here and it is chalk (dry) grazing.
		
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What a lovely Lovely person you are thank you so so much. Luckily I have paid in advance for Prince to be at full livery until mid August where he currently is - thank you SO much though. Your post has been like a bit of sunshine on this nightmarish day x


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## indie1282 (13 July 2020)

paddy555 said:



			LOL Amirah   don't need the tears for mine. It would be more a case of prising the horse off him. Once it has arrived he would never give  up on it whatever the problems. We have far too many horses. 

on a serious note Keira there are so many considerations here. Is the dealer  going to refund you. Really? in the real world is that actually going to happen? You should have the name of the vendor on the receipt and also on your bank account/cheque however you paid for him. How are you going to get your money back if you go down that route? Court action bearing in mind he is in Ireland? what is the cost of that? is your OH going to be happy paying legal costs. You may be lucky and get a bank transfer but I suspect more likely if he agreed the money would not be forthcoming or at least not before the lorry arrived to collect Prince. Then there would be the situation of Prince has gone and reclaiming the money.

The dealer is dodgy. We all agree on something. Have you googled the dealer, his wife, his stud and his employee if you have details? Have you googled the name on the passport. This may simply be a name they gave him for the passport but maybe it will tell you something else?

If your vet found both microchips then I wonder why the dealers vet didn't find one already implanted. Was this the vet who vetted Prince? Could have been careless or perhaps it is a regular occurrence. Have you googled the vet? there are disgraced vets.

Just because the dealer got a cheap horse that he  flogged on to you doesn't mean the horse has a problem. He could well have but equally he could have come from anywhere. Someone who wanted to hide his problems and get some quick cash for him or someone genuine who just sold their old horse. Or an ex racehorse or any number of scams.
Until you get the 1st micro chip number I think you are stuck. If you can find the original owner or breeder you may be able to see his real name/parents etc. Googling that may tell you his history, if he raced etc.

*I am afraid I do share Indie and Amirah's concerns about your pro rider. Have you bought a horse with a problem history or have you bought a horse that has acquired his problem since he arrived. That is not due to your own mismanagement (I must stress that)  but down to either being ridden with unexplained hives or by your pro rider.

I appreciate your inexperience and the word "pro" means an expert but it doesn't always. If you take a pro, especially a man with an ego, who is going to get a problem horse working it can end badly if that horse is sensitive. It can go very badly wrong. You take a horse who is perhaps playing up a little and turn him into a wreck. I know that because the first horse I bought was similar to Prince. (I was not the rider with the ego BTW )*

I too don't understand why you don't want a 2nd set of eyes to see if he can be sorted. It doesn't have to be at your yard if you would rather the rider didn't know. You could take him somewhere to get some assistance.
		
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The bit i have put in bold is exactly what i wanted to say, but was trying to be too PC lol . It certainly would not be the first time an older male pro has decided to show a novice female 'how it's done', cocked the horse up then written it off as dangerous. There are a few pros in my area just like this. They get the job done and people think they are fab but they get the job done at a cost to the horses well being that i would never put any horse of mine through.

OP you are replying to other posts on here so you are clearly reading this thread but i dont understand why you dont want to answer how the pro rode the horse? It could make all the difference to your horses life??


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## Keira 8888 (13 July 2020)

Thank you so much everyone for your replies. I appreciate all your time reading and responding - I really do.

In answer to the question about the pro, he was certainly more stern/firm than myself but I was way too soft and ineffective (especially at first, although I gained a lot of confidence after a few weeks.) He was never ever rough though. Never used a switch. Just a stern tone of voice when Prince was napping.
In terms of getting a second opinion from another pro (and I’m so grateful to the people who have kindly sent details of people they recommend) I feel that I would rather get a full medical work up done FIRST so that if there is a problem medically it can be addressed as soon as possible. If he were to get the all clear medically, I would then want to visit another pro for behavioural advice. What I do know medically so far is that his teeth are good, his hooves are good, his heart and eyes are good, the vet did flexion tests with his legs and watched him trot from behind. He is not cold backed. So that leaves me left to explore the possibility of harder to spot issues (needing scans/xrays etc) such as ulcers, spinal problems etc..

Am I going to do this?? Guys, I just don’t know. I honestly am lost. I will however make my mind up very very soon, I can’t keep going around in circles - it’s no good for me or Prince.

What I can say is that I value everyone’s input very much - many of you have spent such a long time reading and replying. I’m sorry if I haven’t replied to you personally with my thanks yet.

I will let everyone know the outcome of this as abs when things happen and new things are discovered. I’m still awaiting a call from the vet with the second microchip number.

Thanks again to everyone who has stuck around to lend their advice and support x


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## Firefly9410 (13 July 2020)

Trouper said:



			MMm  I am not sure dodgy dealers are "sensitive" enough to learn from a bad transaction that lands back with them!
		
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The point is, if everybody insisted on their legal right to a refund when sold a dodgy horse then these types of dealers would go bust. Their business survives BECAUSE people do not pursue refund.

@Keira 8888 if you do end up getting a refund and sending Prince back consider posting his microchip numbers on here so if anyone else Google 's them this thread will show up.

Also when did the vet flexion test? Could Prince still have had bute in his system at the time? And just so you know (in case you do not already) not being cold backed does not mean there is no problem with the back. One more thing for future, with  video what you do not know is how long it took to get the perfect 30sec clip or whatever you saw.


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## Wishfilly (13 July 2020)

indie1282 said:



			OP i am going to be very direct with you now. Both myself and others on here have asked how your pro YO rode him and you haven't answered. I am betting that he is a hard rider and most likely gave the horse a few cracks with the stick to ' get him going'  some horses will not tolerate this sort of behaviour and if pressured may go up. Bear in mind that you never had any problems with the horse until he rode him. And it's not because your horse 'likes' you better, it's probably because you treated him calmly and he responded. I fear that your YO has made this problem escalate and now he is saying he wont ride him because his method hasn't worked and he is now labelling the horse dangerous.

Also you dont seem keen to get another pro in to ride him? I understand that you may feel awkward getting someone else in but if your YO cant ride him then you have to try someone else. Also have you taken him off ALL feed? the Alfalfa may have caused this even. I just think that you should explore these options before spending money on a vet work up, the costs there can spiral very quickly.

Unfortunately if your husband wants his money back asap then your only choice is to pursue a refund with the dealer.

Please dont take this post as criticism because you are a novice owner who sadly has had poor advice from so called professionals and i really do feel for you.

ETA i think that it's BLATANTLY clear that the dealer is hiding something and is trying to bully/scare you in to keeping the horse, and there is definitely something fishy going on. I dont have a lot of legal knowledge but if you contact the BHS i believe they have a legal helpline and may be able to offer you some advice.
		
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I'm sorry but I disagree with this. I know that some pros can be hard riders or may not ride in a way that everyone agrees with, but a horse that has been sold as safe for an inexperienced mum (no offence meant, OP) and her young daughter to ride should not go straight up when put under a bit of pressure by a pro. Yes, maybe he has done something truly awful, but in general I think a horse sold as safe/been there done that should be able to tollerate e.g. a few cracks with the stick- maybe rear if he was really in distress but not go straight up to the point of nearly going over backwards and THEN do the same with the OP. 

A horse that will go up in that sort of situation (and I agree some will) is generally not suitable for a novice owner and often needs careful management. 

If I had a horse that had gone up twice, I'd also be reluctant about trying to get another person on board without doing some vet investigation etc, first. To say you "have" to try someone else is unfair, I think.

Also, even if another, more sensitive/better/female pro can ride the horse, that doesn't mean it will necessarily come good for OP and her daughter. That kind of schooling is also usually £££ and won't be covered by insurance.


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## indie1282 (13 July 2020)

Wishfilly said:



			I'm sorry but I disagree with this. I know that some pros can be hard riders or may not ride in a way that everyone agrees with, but a horse that has been sold as safe for an inexperienced mum (no offence meant, OP) and her young daughter to ride should not go straight up when put under a bit of pressure by a pro. Yes, maybe he has done something truly awful, but in general I think a horse sold as safe/been there done that should be able to tollerate e.g. a few cracks with the stick- maybe rear if he was really in distress but not go straight up to the point of nearly going over backwards and THEN do the same with the OP.

A horse that will go up in that sort of situation (and I agree some will) is generally not suitable for a novice owner and often needs careful management.

If I had a horse that had gone up twice, I'd also be reluctant about trying to get another person on board without doing some vet investigation etc, first. To say you "have" to try someone else is unfair, I think.

Also, even if another, more sensitive/better/female pro can ride the horse, that doesn't mean it will necessarily come good for OP and her daughter. That kind of schooling is also usually £££ and won't be covered by insurance.
		
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The horse has hives and has been fed on Alfalfa - which can blow plenty of horses minds. This has happened all AFTER the horse had been in the UK for a few weeks. I have said in previous posts that the horse need a month in the field on nothing but grass with a bit of hay if required THEN reassessed. I just cant understand why this approach is so difficult to understand or implement? If another pro rides it and it still rears then you can go own the Vet route if required. One of my horse is a sweet and kind chap but he completely lost his shit when i fed Calm & Condition, he literally could not contain himself. So i took him off it, gave it a few days and guess what? I had my lovely horse back.

Yes the OP may never want to ride it again but if the horse comes good it can be resold. 

I'm sorry but the fact that the OP wont acknowledge the posts asking about how the pro rode the horse only makes me think that something went wrong, now OP has a horse that has been labelled dangerous. And none of it's really her fault.


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## Amirah (13 July 2020)

Keira, you hacked him out alone, past feral ponies and fast cars and hornets. You were not ineffective at all, don't do yourself down. There are plenty of horses that won't hack out alone.


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## Amirah (13 July 2020)

Indie and Paddy, I'm guessing Keira doesn't want to say anything even remotely negative about her YO on a public forum, the horse world is very small.


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## Wishfilly (13 July 2020)

indie1282 said:



			The horse has hives and has been fed on Alfalfa - which can blow plenty of horses minds. This has happened all AFTER the horse had been in the UK for a few weeks. I have said in previous posts that the horse need a month in the field on nothing but grass with a bit of hay if required THEN reassessed. I just cant understand why this approach is so difficult to understand or implement? If another pro rides it and it still rears then you can go own the Vet route if required. One of my horse is a sweet and kind chap but he completely lost his shit when i fed Calm & Condition, he literally could not contain himself. So i took him off it, gave it a few days and guess what? I had my lovely horse back.

Yes the OP may never want to ride it again but if the horse comes good it can be resold.

I'm sorry but the fact that the OP wont acknowledge the posts asking about how the pro rode the horse only makes me think that something went wrong, now OP has a horse that has been labelled dangerous. And none of it's really her fault.
		
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The OP has now acknowledged your post, just in case you missed it. 

I do think your suggestions are reasonable, if the OP had had the horse for longer, but given the OP has only had him for a short time, and there is (or was) the possibility of a refund from the seller on the table, then it's not as easy a decision as you're making out. But that's just my opinion. 

I agree that if the OP decides to keep him then your suggestions about taking him off his feed and trying to get to the bottom of the hives are a good first step. 

"If another pro rides it and it still rears then you can go own the Vet route if required"- this, however, I have a real problem with, especially if OP's insurance will pay out for some investigation first. I think there are a lot of signs that something isn't right with this horse, and putting another rider on to essentially figure out if the horse is in pain isn't fair on the horse. I also think it's a bit unfair on the pro, although obviously if you disclose the horse's history and they are still happy to get on, then that is on them. 

I do agree that _if _she decides to keep the horse there are options and routes open to her, but I don't think there's any basis for assuming OP's YO has caused the problem.


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## Amirah (13 July 2020)

Some of us clearly have "male pro" baggage, lol.


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## Mikas-mom (13 July 2020)

So now it appears that some People think the OP should keep the horse and throw bucketloads of money at it in the hope that something will show up giving reason for the recent behaviour, which can then (hopefully) be ‘fixed’ by throwing even more money at the horse by getting another ‘Pro’ to do some work with the horse? 
or am I mistaken?

as ycbm said previously, this horse is a money pit, anyone with a bit of experience can see that. And whilst a lot of us would throw money at him in the hopes that he can be of some use at some point in the future, I think a lot of you are forgetting that Keira ISN’T an experienced owner, and she bought a horse that both her and her daughter can enjoy and ride.
Quite clearly this is not Princ, not at the present time at least. And Keira has admitted that she won’t feel comfortable getting back on him again after his previous rearing, can’t say I blame her tbh.

horses are meant to be fun. Yes they do cause quite a bit of stress and worry every now and again, but this is well beyond that and is now causing problems in Keira’s personal life 😕

if she can get a refund and return the horse, surely that’s the best course of action for her and her family


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## Firefly9410 (13 July 2020)

Indie1282 the problem is if he rears over backwards and kills someone it is no good saying oh ok better get the vet after all. It is too late by then. He has already teetered on the brink of going over backwards. Regardless of the reason for it I would never get on him again and advise nobody else to either. I someone wants to have vet investigation thinks that they found and treated the problem then wants to try again that is a slightly different situation and less risky in terms of safety.


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## indie1282 (13 July 2020)

Keira 8888 said:



			Thank you so much everyone for your replies. I appreciate all your time reading and responding - I really do.

In answer to the question about the pro, he was certainly more stern/firm than myself but I was way too soft and ineffective (especially at first, although I gained a lot of confidence after a few weeks.) He was never ever rough though. Never used a switch. Just a stern tone of voice when Prince was napping.
In terms of getting a second opinion from another pro (and I’m so grateful to the people who have kindly sent details of people they recommend) I feel that I would rather get a full medical work up done FIRST so that if there is a problem medically it can be addressed as soon as possible. If he were to get the all clear medically, I would then want to visit another pro for behavioural advice. What I do know medically so far is that his teeth are good, his hooves are good, his heart and eyes are good, the vet did flexion tests with his legs and watched him trot from behind. He is not cold backed. So that leaves me left to explore the possibility of harder to spot issues (needing scans/xrays etc) such as ulcers, spinal problems etc..

Am I going to do this?? Guys, I just don’t know. I honestly am lost. I will however make my mind up very very soon, I can’t keep going around in circles - it’s no good for me or Prince.

What I can say is that I value everyone’s input very much - many of you have spent such a long time reading and replying. I’m sorry if I haven’t replied to you personally with my thanks yet.

I will let everyone know the outcome of this as abs when things happen and new things are discovered. I’m still awaiting a call from the vet with the second microchip number.

Thanks again to everyone who has stuck around to lend their advice and support x
		
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Thats the good news about your pro. Its another thing to tick off, I know it probably seems like a lot but all these little things really help to paint a picture so thank you for replying 😊 

After reading your posts about you husband wanting the money back I think your next step is to stand back and discuss with him where you go from here. I can see where he is coming from. He's 2.5k out of pocket, you and your girls are understandably upset and he sees the horse as being the cause of all this - to him sending the horse back and getting a refund is the way to solve the problem and make you all happy. 

If you do go down the dealer refund route be prepared for it to drag on for months...

As a compromise with your OH, can you put Prince in a cheaper grass livery for now? If your full livery is £600 per month and say grass is £100 in 5 months you will have 'saved' 2.5k so he will get his money back? Then, if you want to you can look at getting the horse a vet work up and take it from there?


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## Amirah (13 July 2020)

We weren't all going to agree, but all have an opinion. We have collectively dug into our experiences and come up with various memories of things that sent our horses temporarily crackers, ranging from egotistical males to the wrong food. Some think return, some think try to find the cause and some think that she's got little chance of a refund.

None of us know how much spare cash, if any,  OP has got, her emotions towards Prince or how she would feel if she never saw him again.

She's even had an incredibly generous offer of free bed and board for him on here.

It's easy to have principles when you can afford them like some of us can, it wouldn't matter to me if one of mine was completely useless as they're at home, and I'm not that fussed about riding anyway unless my daughter drags me out (I am very fair weather, like the Queen ☺).

The important thing is that whatever she decides none of us judge her.


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## Keira 8888 (13 July 2020)

Amirah said:



			We weren't all going to agree, but all have an opinion. We have collectively dug into our experiences and come up with various memories of things that sent our horses temporarily crackers, ranging from egotistical males to the wrong food. Some think return, some think try to find the cause and some think that she's got little chance of a refund.

None of us know how much spare cash, if any,  OP has got, her emotions towards Prince or how she would feel if she never saw him again.

She's even had an incredibly generous offer of free bed and board for him on here.

It's easy to have principles when you can afford them like some of us can, it wouldn't matter to me if one of mine was completely useless as they're at home, and I'm not that fussed about riding anyway unless my daughter drags me out (I am very fair weather, like the Queen ☺).

The important thing is that whatever she decides none of us judge her.[/QUOTE
		
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## Keira 8888 (13 July 2020)

You know what, I wasn’t going to mention this to you guys but I’ve had a gin and tonic and feeling very vulnerable and emotional right now.

Last year (having been fit as a flea for my whole life) everything came crashing down and I was diagnosed with multiple sclerosis. Very long story (and you know how good I am by now at very long stories...!)

I was 39 years old. My whole world came tumbling down. And I thought - what do I really want to do right now. And as a horse FANATIC for my entire the life, but never with the funds to realise my dreams, I started to save money. All I wanted was to realise my lifelong dream and also make my daughters dream come true. Before I potentially wouldn’t be mobile enough to do so in the next few years. The time is clocking for me and I am desperate to ride with my daughter in the forest - perhaps it is this sappy dream that led me to ignore all the “sensible” voices in my head when I bought Prince unseen.

But do you know what - this past month with Prince has been incredible. He IS the horse if my dreams. I just wish I could have had a smoother ride with it all. Sorry to be overly emotional but it’s a funny thing when you realise that you might not have all the time you thought to have a healthy body and mind x


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## Amirah (13 July 2020)

I am so sorry to hear that you're not well Keira. I hope you are feeling a bit calmer now about this debacle (I would suggest a second gin). Take care sweetie


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## paddy555 (13 July 2020)

Mikas-mom said:



			So now it appears that some People think the OP should keep the horse and throw bucketloads of money at it in the hope that something will show up giving reason for the recent behaviour, which can then (hopefully) be ‘fixed’ by throwing even more money at the horse by getting another ‘Pro’ to do some work with the horse?
or am I mistaken?

as ycbm said previously, this horse is a money pit, anyone with a bit of experience can see that. And whilst a lot of us would throw money at him in the hopes that he can be of some use at some point in the future, I think a lot of you are forgetting that Keira ISN’T an experienced owner, and she bought a horse that both her and her daughter can enjoy and ride.
Quite clearly this is not Princ, not at the present time at least. And Keira has admitted that she won’t feel comfortable getting back on him again after his previous rearing, can’t say I blame her tbh.

horses are meant to be fun. Yes they do cause quite a bit of stress and worry every now and again, but this is well beyond that and is now causing problems in Keira’s personal life 😕

if she can get a refund and return the horse, surely that’s the best course of action for her and her family
		
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I certainly don't think she should throw bucket loads of money at Prince. I doubt the insurance is going to pay anyway. If they will that will be great and may provide an answer and no point in not going down that road. 
 However I would just try and remove some of the doubts before calling it a day. Those would be his history, alfalfa/too much feed, hives and the rider. I would also get someone else to have a look at him to see if they can see anything helpful.
The reason  is that something niggles me about this story. This has gone from a horse who was "very easy, gentle and respectful to ride" her words to this in the space of only a couple of weeks. He was hacking out amongst semi feral ponies and cars calmly. Her daughter was riding him in the field. 

If he is a confirmed rearer why didn't he just rear then? 

If he had reared, napped and misbehaved from the beginning then no problem, something was badly wrong before he even came. 

Yes it would be better to send him back but I didn't think K wanted to and more to the point I am not sure getting a refund is going to be as easy as some people think. Maybe evidence will come back from the 2nd microchip that will make him change his mind. If not and he doesn't co-operate then it is going to be a time consuming and costly process and in the meantime she is still going to have Prince.


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## Amirah (13 July 2020)

If I wasn't so far away you and your daughter could come and ride mine, but there might be someone here that's nearer that could offer the same


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## Alwaysmoretoknow (13 July 2020)

No worries Keira - I'm just playing it forward. There are a lot of really experienced and knowledgable people on this forum and I'm pretty sure that many of us have found ourselves in a bit of a shit situation with a horse when you doubt your own judgement and reach out for advice which is why this forum exists. If you decide to do any investigations can I recommend you contact Endels and ask for a call back from Hani. She is an extremely experienced and pragmatic equine vet and will give you sound advice on what, if any, further investigations she feels would benefit you and Prince given your circumstances. I wish you all the luck in resolving your dilema and my offer still stands when your pre-paid livery ends.Just as a by-the-way my current job mainly involves taking non-payers to the small claims court and then instructing sherifs to reclaim unpaid debts so if you need any advice on this let me know. Its more simple then you would think although possibly the Irish element might be more complex. Best wishes with whatever you decide to do.


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## southerncomfort (13 July 2020)

Keira

I haven't responded to this thread so far simply because I don't know what advice to give.  But having just read your last post, I just want to say that whatever you decide to do, you won't get any judgement  from me nor I suspect from anyone else here.

You need to take care of yourself first and foremost.


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## CanteringCarrot (13 July 2020)

Actually, riding with MS is a good idea with the right horse. The main reason that my good friend is still able to walk (she has MS) is because she rides almost everyday. So I think riding would be a great physical and mental therapy for you. 

I've been through some shit and I totally get waiting to seize the moment while you can. Or trying to treat yourself a bit because life is short. I've also been screwed over by dishonest sketchy people. It sucks. You will be able to move past this. It's a bump in the road.


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## Winters100 (13 July 2020)

So sorry Keira - really. x


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## Keira 8888 (13 July 2020)

Alwaysmoretoknow said:



			No worries Keira - I'm just playing it forward. There are a lot of really experienced and knowledgable people on this forum and I'm pretty sure that many of us have found ourselves in a bit of a shit situation with a horse when you doubt your own judgement and reach out for advice which is why this forum exists. If you decide to do any investigations can I recommend you contact Endels and ask for a call back from Hani. She is an extremely experienced and pragmatic equine vet and will give you sound advice on what, if any, further investigations she feels would benefit you and Prince given your circumstances. I wish you all the luck in resolving your dilema and my offer still stands when your pre-paid livery ends.Just as a by-the-way my current job mainly involves taking non-payers to the small claims court and then instructing sherifs to reclaim unpaid debts so if you need any advice on this let me know. Its more simple then you would think although possibly the Irish element might be more complex. Best wishes with whatever you decide to do.
		
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I can’t actually find the words to thank you for your incredible offer and kindness. This means more to me then I could express x


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## ycbm (13 July 2020)

paddy555 said:



			something niggles me about this story. This has gone from a horse who was "very easy, gentle and respectful to ride" her words to this in the space of only a couple of weeks. He was hacking out amongst semi feral ponies and cars calmly. Her daughter was riding him in the field. 

If he is a confirmed rearer why didn't he just rear then? 

If he had reared, napped and misbehaved from the beginning then no problem, something was badly wrong before he even came.
		
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The timing is bang on for a bute loading wearing off. 

.


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## Keira 8888 (13 July 2020)

CanteringCarrot said:



			Actually, riding with MS is a good idea with the right horse. The main reason that my good friend is still able to walk (she has MS) is because she rides almost everyday. So I think riding would be a great physical and mental therapy for you.

I've been through some shit and I totally get waiting to seize the moment while you can. Or trying to treat yourself a bit because life is short. I've also been screwed over by dishonest sketchy people. It sucks. You will be able to move past this. It's a bump in the road.
		
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Oh my goodness!!!!!! This is so amazing to hear!!!! I can’t tell you how excited this makes me feel! Thank you for telling me this xx


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## Keira 8888 (13 July 2020)

Amirah said:



			If I wasn't so far away you and your daughter could come and ride mine, but there might be someone here that's nearer that could offer the same
		
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💓


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## Keira 8888 (13 July 2020)

Winters100 said:



			So sorry Keira - really. x
		
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Thank you 🙏 xx


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## Goldenstar (13 July 2020)

Op it’s a sad story and of course giving opinions on a horse you have not seen is an very imperfect thing .
But my advice is unless you have loads of money don’t spend it on vets for this poor horse .
You could spend thousands on diagnostics alone 
Get a vet to advise you and try some pain relief but don’t ride him .
If you can retire him and let him have a happy time perhaps with some drugs to keep him more comfy I applaud you .
If it’s not possible then a well planned end is not the worse thing that happened to an older TB with serious issues .
Don’t risk serious injury trying to ride him .
You need a hug so have a cyber hug from me, having a horse is not supposed to be like this but when it is you need a clear head and a strong disposition.


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## Keira 8888 (13 July 2020)

southerncomfort said:



			Keira

I haven't responded to this thread so far simply because I don't know what advice to give.  But having just read your last post, I just want to say that whatever you decide to do, you won't get any judgement  from me nor I suspect from anyone else here.

You need to take care of yourself first and foremost.
		
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Thank you xx


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## misst (13 July 2020)

Keira what a sh1t time you have had and are having. I can't help and can't offer anything except a virtual hug but keep on keeping on. So far you have handled this so well. I really hope you can find somewhere safe for Prince, make friends with your husband again (horses are not always helpful in a marriage but they also can bring out the surprising best in a husband too when the chips are down) and find the horse you need for your dauther and yourself.x


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## Frumpoon (13 July 2020)

ycbm said:



			The timing is bang on for a bute loading wearing off.

.
		
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Is it really that long? A few weeks?? Every day is a school day


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## paddy555 (13 July 2020)

ycbm said:



			The timing is bang on for a bute loading wearing off.

.
		
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fair point he may have been buted and I wondered about that  but I have used a lot of bute over the years (a lot of older horses)  and never managed to go for anything like that long without topping it up. Perhaps something else was used. If he had been mine I would have put him straight onto a bute trial at the first sign of pain reluctance to try and establish if he had. It would sadly be too late to try that now. 

 I don't doubt he came with problems I am just not sure what problem. I did think when K first posted about tying him up and saying he was a 16 yo had hunted and had had a hard life thinking this might not have been a good idea and wondering if the next post was going to be the horse was so stiff, unsound behind etc etc and he was going to need treatment.


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## Goldenstar (13 July 2020)

He may have been out of work that could account for the onset of issues .


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## Gingerwitch (13 July 2020)

paddy555 said:



			fair point he may have been buted and I wondered about that  but I have used a lot of bute over the years (a lot of older horses)  and never managed to go for anything like that long without topping it up. Perhaps something else was used. If he had been mine I would have put him straight onto a bute trial at the first sign of pain reluctance to try and establish if he had. It would sadly be too late to try that now. 

 I don't doubt he came with problems I am just not sure what problem. I did think when K first posted about tying him up and saying he was a 16 yo had hunted and had had a hard life thinking this might not have been a good idea and wondering if the next post was going to be the horse was so stiff, unsound behind etc etc and he was going to need treatment.
		
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I once had a horse who " tied up" or appeared to. Turned out he had had a rotational fall at some point in his life and had horrific arthritic changes in his neck/shoulder this led to a trapping of nerves that created a huge dangerous reaction.  He was only 11 but I sadly lost him as he was too dangerous, he was in such pain he was not even able to be a field ornament.


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## Keira 8888 (13 July 2020)

FestiveFuzz said:



			It definitely sounds like a large gin and tonic kinda day! I can't remember if this has already been asked, but are you a BHS member? It might be worth having a chat with their legal team if you are (or joining as a member if not) just so you know where you stand from a legal perspective, especially if your husband is going to push for Prince to be returned.
		
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I will def look into this! Sounds very sensible xx


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## Keira 8888 (13 July 2020)

Amirah said:



			Keira, you hacked him out alone, past feral ponies and fast cars and hornets. You were not ineffective at all, don't do yourself down. There are plenty of horses that won't hack out alone.
		
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Thank you darling . YES!! You are right, I did do this!! And it was such a great day, best memories xx


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## Keira 8888 (13 July 2020)

Hm77 said:



			OP - I'm very close to the area your horse lives in. If you decide to go down the vet route and would like the details of one who I believe will give you an honest opinion I'm happy to give you a name.
		
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Thank you so much xx


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## Keira 8888 (13 July 2020)

Amirah said:



			Some of us clearly have "male pro" baggage, lol.
		
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Haha! Bloody men!!


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## J&S (13 July 2020)

Keira, if you do send Prince back and therefore end up with out a horse do get in touch with your local RDA (Riding for the Disabled) group.  I am a coach and have had several riders with MS.  You would be welcomed and perhaps the kind horses the groups use would give you back some confidence in yourself and your riding.  I am sure they would be able to let your daughter ride too. Some times these horses/ponies are moved on to private homes and you might be able to take advantage of this.


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## ester (13 July 2020)

I used to be near you and happily used both Malcolm and Alex. 

If it were me and the refund were guaranteed (but it doesn't seem to be that anymore) he'd be going back.


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## Keira 8888 (13 July 2020)

Goldenstar said:



			He may have been out of work that could account for the onset of issues .
		
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Hmm this is interesting. He was very underweight when he arrived x


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## Keira 8888 (13 July 2020)

J&S said:



			Keira, if you do send Prince back and therefore end up with out a horse do get in touch with your local RDA (Riding for the Disabled) group.  I am a coach and have had several riders with MS.  You would be welcomed and perhaps the kind horses the groups use would give you back some confidence in yourself and your riding.  I am sure they would be able to let your daughter ride too. Some times these horses/ponies are moved on to private homes and you might be able to take advantage of this.
		
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What a great idea - thank you. I had no idea such a group existed. Will go check it out now. Thank you xx


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## Keira 8888 (13 July 2020)

Amirah said:



			We weren't all going to agree, but all have an opinion. We have collectively dug into our experiences and come up with various memories of things that sent our horses temporarily crackers, ranging from egotistical males to the wrong food. Some think return, some think try to find the cause and some think that she's got little chance of a refund.

None of us know how much spare cash, if any,  OP has got, her emotions towards Prince or how she would feel if she never saw him again.

She's even had an incredibly generous offer of free bed and board for him on here.

It's easy to have principles when you can afford them like some of us can, it wouldn't matter to me if one of mine was completely useless as they're at home, and I'm not that fussed about riding anyway unless my daughter drags me out (I am very fair weather, like the Queen ☺).

The important thing is that whatever she decides none of us judge her.
		
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Do you know what - what you said here means everything to me. Thank you xx


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## ester (13 July 2020)

I failed in where malcolm and alex came from (stable close vets!) lol not a good day.


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## SatansLittleHelper (14 July 2020)

OP....fwiw if I had a pound for every time on this forum I've been told I'm a dickhead for some ridiculous thing I've done, I'd be able to afford a yard full of super horses 😳🙈🤣🙄 90% of the time it's a well deserved assessment of my ability to make "sensible " choices 🙄🙄
Given your diagnosis and the stress you must be under I can totally get why you have ploughed in head first. I lost my 6 year old daughter 5 years ago and I have a colourful variety of health issues myself. I dither frequently between being sensible and throwing all caution to the wind while muttering about life being too short.
BUT you do have to take a little breather every now and again to be sensible and realistic (borrrriiinnnnggggggggg I know). I admire your commitment to doing right by Prince but I think sending him back and getting a refund is the best thing. Stress will not help with the MS, and a strain on your marriage won't be good for you either. You will have learned alot from this and hopefully won't make the same mistake again (unless you are special kind of dumb.....like me 😳😳).


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## Amirah (14 July 2020)

I'm so very very sorry that you lost your little girl, that has to be the most utterly unbearable pain. I think you are very brave.  Big hugs to you and Keira x


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## fankino04 (14 July 2020)

paddy555 said:



			before deciding anything I would take up offers, such as Frumpoon's and no doubt others have offered, take Prince somewhere where there are experienced girls who are sympathetic and able to assess him. Find out to start with if he has a behavioural problem. You need someone experienced, who is kind as I suspect he is a very sensitive horse, and  who can take a look at the situation and tell you what you are looking at. Someone experienced with TB's and ex racers which he could well be will be able to provide useful info. Then you can decide where to go. 

In the meantime what have you learnt from the 2 chips and passports? have you researched them and do they throw any light on the situation?
		
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I know there has been a post on here before about Sophie Gregory (aka the kiss and cuddles lady), but she takes horses like this under her "roos legacy" program, seems really sympathetic etc so might be worth getting in touch with her to see if she has space.


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## fankino04 (14 July 2020)

indie1282 said:



			Thats the good news about your pro. Its another thing to tick off, I know it probably seems like a lot but all these little things really help to paint a picture so thank you for replying 😊 

After reading your posts about you husband wanting the money back I think your next step is to stand back and discuss with him where you go from here. I can see where he is coming from. He's 2.5k out of pocket, you and your girls are understandably upset and he sees the horse as being the cause of all this - to him sending the horse back and getting a refund is the way to solve the problem and make you all happy. 

If you do go down the dealer refund route be prepared for it to drag on for months...

As a compromise with your OH, can you put Prince in a cheaper grass livery for now? If your full livery is £600 per month and say grass is £100 in 5 months you will have 'saved' 2.5k so he will get his money back? Then, if you want to you can look at getting the horse a vet work up and take it from there?
		
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If you go down the cheap grass livery route he can be a companion for mine for £80 per month. I'm sorry your husband is adding to the stress by the way x


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## Keira 8888 (14 July 2020)

SatansLittleHelper said:



			OP....fwiw if I had a pound for every time on this forum I've been told I'm a dickhead for some ridiculous thing I've done, I'd be able to afford a yard full of super horses 😳🙈🤣🙄 90% of the time it's a well deserved assessment of my ability to make "sensible " choices 🙄🙄
Given your diagnosis and the stress you must be under I can totally get why you have ploughed in head first. I lost my 6 year old daughter 5 years ago and I have a colourful variety of health issues myself. I dither frequently between being sensible and throwing all caution to the wind while muttering about life being too short.
BUT you do have to take a little breather every now and again to be sensible and realistic (borrrriiinnnnggggggggg I know). I admire your commitment to doing right by Prince but I think sending him back and getting a refund is the best thing. Stress will not help with the MS, and a strain on your marriage won't be good for you either. You will have learned alot from this and hopefully won't make the same mistake again (unless you are special kind of dumb.....like me 😳😳).
		
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I am so sorry to hear you lost your little girl - how unbelievably awful. My heart goes out to you. I can’t imagine what you have been through. Thanks so much for your advice and lovely reply x


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## Ambers Echo (14 July 2020)

Late to thread and it's pretty much all been said. But to just put my tuppence worth in:

1) The dealer sounds like he is dodgy as and I think he has offloaded a problem onto an inexeperienced owner.
2) I feel for the horse but dealers like that rely on people caring about the horses they buy so they choose to keep them instead of sending them back to a grim fate.
3) So their profits come from people keeping injured/unsuitable horses instead osf sending them back and demanding refunds.
4) If it is not Prince who is condemned to an uncertain future it will be other horses. Lots of others horses because dodgy dealing PAYS!
5) Given that, I would send back and pursue a refund through the courts if necessary. I would not want to fund this way of horse dealing.

But I also get that emotions get in the way so that is hard to do in practice. And I failed to follow my own advice when I bought my daughter's pony who was never right and was PTS after 15 months of cost and heartache. Which is why dealers work like this. Because it works for them.

Sorry you are in this awful position. I hope you are able to feel comfortable with whatever you decide and it works out for you.


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## Feral (14 July 2020)

Hi Keira,

I have just sat and read this whole thread and really feel for you. I myself blew 2.5k on a young horse last year who is now not rideable (not through behavioural issues but medical problems which will hopefully come right!) - I am an experienced horse owner and have been so unlucky with my mare. These things happen so please do not beat yourself up about it!

For me, I would send your boy to the vets and start with a back X-ray (I got all four feet x-rayed and my mares back for £250!) a fairly inexpensive place to start and would tell you right away if kissing spine is the issue along with any arthritic problems.

I would also ring the vet who has implanted the second microchip, on a 16 year old horse they should have checked for an original microchip so this in itself would be very bad for the vet who has issued this second passport and possibly illegal?

Thirdly I would use the first microchip number to find out as much as I could about the horse, is there a racing/throughbred database you could check it on/ring them or a microchipping database which might bring up old owners that you could contact? (contact may have to go via the microchip company)

Lastly, after doing all of this I would then set up a claim against the seller. Especially if you find anything untoward with the microchip or vet investigation.

Horrible situation to be in but i had the choice with my mare of cutting my losses and having her investigated, selling her as a brood mare or god forbid putting her to sleep at 4 years old- I have decided to try all I can.
(she is young and not spoilt in anyway so worth it for me, although for the extra expense I am hoping she will be more than worth it when we come out of the other end and that I will have many enjoyable years with her)

xxx


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## IrishMilo (14 July 2020)

Do whatever's right for you and mitigate where possible stress for the horse without sacrificing your safety or emotional well being.

Your options are send the horse back, have it put to sleep, or get diagnostics done. FWIW, diagnostics are expensive as hell (unless you're made of money) when you're throwing things at the wall and hoping something sticks. A set of back X rays will cost you about £400, more if the horse needs sedating for it. KS surgery is about £2500 without hospital livery cost or adding in complications or rehab costs. Then you have about a 50% it will be successful. You'll also need to know how to work the horse in a way that will build up his back and neck correctly.

Scanning the suspensories is about £300. Ulcer scoping another couple of hundred, the treatment for that same again, if it works and you don't have to try a course of something different.

Once the horse is dead (sorry to be blunt) he'll never be stressed or in pain again, if that's what's causing his rearing. If you send him back it's 99% certain the dealer will sell him again for the same price that you bought him for to recoup their costs.

I'm all for 'teaching the dealer a lesson' and sending the horse back, but if it's at the expense of your own sanity then it's not worth it.

If it were me I'd chalk this up as experience and give him to your cousin as that's what would give me most peace of mind taking into account all the options available. You'll lose money, but that's inevitable with horses.


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## EASTIE17 (14 July 2020)

Hi, not to be negative, but as someone living in Ireland who has two daughters riding at a high level on ponies and do some breeding and buying and selling of Connemaras, unfortunately I believe there isnt a hope of you getting your money back. It would be difficult enough if you were living here but unless you were dealing with a very well known dealership, who frankly would only be dealing with animals worth 10K plus, who were worried about an international reputation would you have a chance. And those type of dealers I dare say wouldn't have allowed this to happen in the first place.
Occasionally someone in Ireland will take an animal back from a purchaser in Ireland, if the new rider feels its not suitable after a couple of weeks but they do that usually just on the basis of being nice. Once the animal gets to your yard/livery etc. most sellers, even private ones revert to "buyer beware" and on horses and ponies at this price range use the  "was fine at my yard" "never did that before" defence. Unless you had a blood test held independently by a vet for 6 months its very difficult, and that isnt always foolproof either.
I say that not to put the boot in but I think you are better off removing that as an option - that then I thinks makes your choices easier.

For example, here is a case that was in the Irish courts, it took 7 years and the plantiff is a very wealthy man who is Irish and has lots of good connections. It also was blatant fraud (bought 1 pony, got sent a different one that was inferior) so a bit more clearcut than your case, he also had deep pockets, lots of connections and was happy to wait 7 years for justice. Most regular people wouldn't have the money, patience or perseverance to pursue this.
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/cri...n-over-sale-of-wrong-pony-to-family-1.3846001


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## Gingerwitch (14 July 2020)

IrishMilo said:



			Do whatever's right for you and mitigate where possible stress for the horse without sacrificing your safety or emotional well being.

Your options are send the horse back, have it put to sleep, or get diagnostics done. FWIW, diagnostics are expensive as hell (unless you're made of money) when you're throwing things at the wall and hoping something sticks. A set of back X rays will cost you about £400, more if the horse needs sedating for it. KS surgery is about £2500 without hospital livery cost or adding in complications or rehab costs. Then you have about a 50% it will be successful. You'll also need to know how to work the horse in a way that will build up his back and neck correctly.

Scanning the suspensories is about £300. Ulcer scoping another couple of hundred, the treatment for that same again, if it works and you don't have to try a course of something different.

Once the horse is dead (sorry to be blunt) he'll never be stressed or in pain again, if that's what's causing his rearing. If you send him back it's 99% certain the dealer will sell him again for the same price that you bought him for to recoup their costs.

I'm all for 'teaching the dealer a lesson' and sending the horse back, but if it's at the expense of your own sanity then it's not worth it.

If it were me I'd chalk this up as experience and give him to your cousin as that's what would give me most peace of mind taking into account all the options available. You'll lose money, but that's inevitable with horses.
		
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Why does everyone scope for ulcers ? Just treat the animal with gastroguard in the first place, it's pretty obvious if it's the right treatment or not quite soon. Saves on the transport to the vets twice, and the scoping twice and is slot kinder to the animal too.


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## ester (14 July 2020)

because insurance won't pay without a scope.


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## Ambers Echo (14 July 2020)

And gastrogard costs more than a scope so is a colossal waste of money if you don't need it.


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## IrishMilo (14 July 2020)

And in addition to what Ester and AE have said, ulcers don’t always respond to just one treatment - sometimes multiple treatments of a different medication is required. So if you don’t know the horse has them for sure by scoping you could easily assume it doesn’t have them if the first line of action doesn’t work.


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## HorsesRule2009 (14 July 2020)

fankino04 said:



			I know there has been a post on here before about Sophie Gregory (aka the kiss and cuddles lady), but she takes horses like this under her "roos legacy" program, seems really sympathetic etc so might be worth getting in touch with her to see if she has space.
		
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This is Sophie Seymour not Gregory.
She has a Facebook page Sophie Seymour Equestrian.


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## fankino04 (14 July 2020)

HorsesRule2009 said:



			This is Sophie Seymour not Gregory.
She has a Facebook page Sophie Seymour Equestrian.
		
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Oops!


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## Gingerwitch (15 July 2020)

ester said:



			because insurance won't pay without a scope.
		
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That's why I self insure, I just do not get the logic if the animal has ulcers you starve I for x hours, treat it then starve again. Isn't the whole point of ulcer treatment keeping the horse with a steady input if feed and a scoop of chaff prior to riding nowadays to stop acid splash ? We really are a strange industry. As the majority of horses apparently have low grade ulcers the insurance company would be saving a huge amount by just paying for the treatment rather than the diagnostics then treatment.


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## Gingerwitch (15 July 2020)

IrishMilo said:



			And in addition to what Ester and AE have said, ulcers don’t always respond to just one treatment - sometimes multiple treatments of a different medication is required. So if you don’t know the horse has them for sure by scoping you could easily assume it doesn’t have them if the first line of action doesn’t work.
		
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And it's usually because the vets give a gastroguard equivalent as the first off for slightly less, this does not work and you end up with a course of gastroguard anyways.  Perhaps you all have better vets than our local practice as I have never known a horse not have ulcers... Once the ulcers have been treated they then move in on to the real underlying issue ..... Yearh right oh.... Even the horse that scoped clear had ulcers further back than the scope showed allegedly.


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## be positive (15 July 2020)

Gingerwitch said:



			And it's usually because the vets give a gastroguard equivalent as the first off for slightly less, this does not work and you end up with a course of gastroguard anyways.  Perhaps you all have better vets than our local practice as I have never known a horse not have ulcers... Once the ulcers have been treated they then move in on to the real underlying issue ..... Yearh right oh.... Even the horse that scoped clear had ulcers further back than the scope showed allegedly.
		
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I have only ever had one scoped, he showed several classic signs but nothing was found so we looked elsewhere and found other issues which were unexpected, even the vet was surprised, that was treated and all the ulcer symptoms went, I did tweak his management and diet slightly at the same time but if he had just had a course of GG we may not have found the real issue for months.

I did have another treated with GG without scoping but he had just returned from being 'treated' in hospital where he received a very nasty mouth injury which made eating and drinking difficult, he was stressed, on drugs and being box rested so when he started cribbing I called my vet and he was put onto GG immediately, his cribbing stopped, he took weeks before he could drink but was able to eat fairly normally and has shown no signs of ulcers since.


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## tristar (15 July 2020)

to be honest , i saw your pic of prince somewhere last week, can`t find it now,  but from what i remember, i would not be riding a  horse in that state,   try to think of it like this , he is thin, he has no muscle, and he has been carted from pillar to post recently, shipped across seas etc.

if he came here i would have given him time to settle, done lots of handling and probably walked him out in hand to get to know him, when he has a little weight on him i would have done loose lunging and lunging in very large squares, and some small pole work, all according to his energy levels, and i would do this with a thick pad under his saddle, yes use the saddle in hand, and sit on him in the yard, just to keep him in the game.

i feel this horse has no muscle, from your photos, and needs prep to build up some muscles to move himself, carry himself,  and eventually carry himself and the rider without discomfort,  no pressure to actually work, just gentle nagging, as i call it, lots of warming up, and up through the gears and back down, somewhere safe.

as he has had no serious investigations, no one here knows whether or not it is something or nothing, it could well be something simple.

i `ve had new horses try rearing, just because they had too much energy, after a few days never did it again i`m sure others will rear because of painetc

there seems to be a lot of furking about in the dark going on here, if you like the horse let fog clear take good advice and run through a few obvious possibilities , make a list, go through it,  and take loads of time to think things through with the horse and his reactions


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## Gingerwitch (15 July 2020)

Oh the po



be positive said:



			I have only ever had one scoped, he showed several classic signs but nothing was found so we looked elsewhere and found other issues which were unexpected, even the vet was surprised, that was treated and all the ulcer symptoms went, I did tweak his management and diet slightly at the same time but if he had just had a course of GG we may not have found the real issue for months.

I did have another treated with GG without scoping but he had just returned from being 'treated' in hospital where he received a very nasty mouth injury which made eating and drinking difficult, he was stressed, on drugs and being box rested so when he started cribbing I called my vet and he was put onto GG immediately, his cribbing stopped, he took weeks before he could drink but was able to eat fairly normally and has shown no signs of ulcers since.
		
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Oh the poor  lad, I can't imagine being a horse with a mouth injury ! Glad he is well now


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## Gingerwitch (15 July 2020)

tristar said:



			to be honest , i saw your pic of prince somewhere last week, can`t find it now,  but from what i remember, i would not be riding a  horse in that state,   try to think of it like this , he is thin, he has no muscle, and he has been carted from pillar to post recently, shipped across seas etc.

if he came here i would have given him time to settle, done lots of handling and probably walked him out in hand to get to know him, when he has a little weight on him i would have done loose lunging and lunging in very large squares, and some small pole work, all according to his energy levels, and i would do this with a thick pad under his saddle, yes use the saddle in hand, and sit on him in the yard, just to keep him in the game.

i feel this horse has no muscle, from your photos, and needs prep to build up some muscles to move himself, carry himself,  and eventually carry himself and the rider without discomfort,  no pressure to actually work, just gentle nagging, as i call it, lots of warming up, and up through the gears and back down, somewhere safe.

as he has had no serious investigations, no one here knows whether or not it is something or nothing, it could well be something simple.

i `ve had new horses try rearing, just because they had too much energy, after a few days never did it again i`m sure others will rear because of painetc

there seems to be a lot of furking about in the dark going on here, if you like the horse let fog clear take good advice and run through a few obvious possibilities , make a list, go through it,  and take loads of time to think things through with the horse and his reactions
		
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I have not seen the photo so can't comment, but you have made an excellent post.  Slight Problem I think is Mr liver yard owner he is nit going to give the lady or the horse a chance in hell to prove he was a right twinkle Richard, she is paid in advance on full livery and I would think that the op is too intimidated ti move said pony.  Hubby obviously is worried about wife, does not know horses so will do what many very caring men do when worried and can't sleigh the dragon so to speak, Nd tbey shout.


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## tristar (15 July 2020)

Gingerwitch said:



			I have not seen the photo so can't comment, but you have made an excellent post.  Slight Problem I think is Mr liver yard owner he is nit going to give the lady or the horse a chance in hell to prove he was a right twinkle Richard, she is paid in advance on full livery and I would think that the op is too intimidated ti move said pony.  Hubby obviously is worried about wife, does not know horses so will do what many very caring men do when worried and can't sleigh the dragon so to speak, Nd tbey shout.
		
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the livery yard owner problem did occur to me to be honest, an all round difficult situation,  op needs to put the horse as first priority to yo`s pride and hubbies position, man up and make decisions, this is the hard part of life, we have to take a stand based on previous decisions  ie to buy horse, let yo ride horse, now steep learning curve to eliminate obvious reasons for rearing,  its all part of owning a horse ì`m a afraid

why did yo ride horse in the first place?


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## dorsetladette (15 July 2020)

tristar said:



			the livery yard owner problem did occur to me to be honest, an all round difficult situation,  op needs to put the horse as first priority to yo`s pride and hubbies position, man up and make decisions, this is the hard part of life, we have to take a stand based on previous decisions  ie to buy horse, let yo ride horse, now steep learning curve to eliminate obvious reasons for rearing,  its all part of owning a horse ì`m a afraid

why did yo ride horse in the first place?
		
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I think YO started riding to 'help' OP as horse was a bit nappy from what I recall. I think this all relates to the feed the YO also recommended for weight gain (could be wrong) as the timing fits. 

How long is the livery paid up to? OP could use this to her advantage in a round about sort of way. I'm gonna say livery paid to the end of August for example - YO refuses to ride the horse - so no one ride the horse. Give him this time to be a horse, get to know him on the ground/in the field/in the stable. Use YO grass to build up some weight (Dr green) change his diet and let the rocket fuel feeds get out of his system. Worm him, get his jabs up to date (while vet visits get them to give him a check over for anything obvious). Generally get him looking, feeling like a loved horse again. 
All the time between now and the end of the paid livery be researching and visiting breaking/schooling yards ready for him to move to the right one for him/OP. Go and have a coffee with these people (professionals) and explain everything. You can get a better feel for something when you talk to people face to face (IMHO). If you feel intimidated by someone their yard isn't for you, if they explain things in a way that puts you at ease explain that they can't give a time frame until they have assessed the horse for a couple of weeks (an example) they are probably the ones for you. 

I'd use the time your 'stuck' with the unhelpful YO to get everything set up for your horse to have a good restart and positive educational experience. 

As has been mentioned above I very much doubt you will get your money back from the dealer. So, I think its now about damage limitations. Your horse might come good and be just what you wanted. If not, at least you are setting him up for a future as a useful horse for someone. Then you can find your perfect match and take this experience with you.


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## Tiddlypom (15 July 2020)

Gingerwitch said:



			Why does everyone scope for ulcers ? Just treat the animal with gastroguard in the first place, it's pretty obvious if it's the right treatment or not quite soon. Saves on the transport to the vets twice, and the scoping twice and is slot kinder to the animal too.
		
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Because if it’s not ulcers, but hind gut acidosis instead, you will have wasted your money and the horse will be in discomfort for longer.

Vet, chiro vet and me were all convinced that one of mine had ulcers. I asked if we could skip the scope and go straight for gastroguard. Vet said we ought to confirm the ulcers first - we were all surprised that she was clear. Mare then responded  very favourably to the Succeed supplement for hind gut acidosis - there are no reliable tests for HGA on a live horse, only on post mortem exam.


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## paddy555 (15 July 2020)

tristar said:



			to be honest , i saw your pic of prince somewhere last week, can`t find it now,  but from what i remember, i would not be riding a  horse in that state,   try to think of it like this , he is thin, he has no muscle, and he has been carted from pillar to post recently, shipped across seas etc.

if he came here i would have given him time to settle, done lots of handling and probably walked him out in hand to get to know him, when he has a little weight on him i would have done loose lunging and lunging in very large squares, and some small pole work, all according to his energy levels, and i would do this with a thick pad under his saddle, yes use the saddle in hand, and sit on him in the yard, just to keep him in the game.

i feel this horse has no muscle, from your photos, and needs prep to build up some muscles to move himself, carry himself,  and eventually carry himself and the rider without discomfort,  no pressure to actually work, just gentle nagging, as i call it, lots of warming up, and up through the gears and back down, somewhere safe.

as he has had no serious investigations, no one here knows whether or not it is something or nothing, it could well be something simple.

i `ve had new horses try rearing, just because they had too much energy, after a few days never did it again i`m sure others will rear because of painetc

there seems to be a lot of furking about in the dark going on here, if you like the horse let fog clear take good advice and run through a few obvious possibilities , make a list, go through it,  and take loads of time to think things through with the horse and his reactions
		
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I wasn't going to post on here again as it seemed pointless, you are right about the furking in the dark ( never heard that before but I love it) 
Advice is given and I am sure half of it is not listened to and the poor horse is at the centre of it all. 
I would suggest one of the first things that should have been done is to get on the dodgy dealers page and find out about the dealer. Several people suggested it but it appeared to get little response.  Someone will know him if he is  dogdy. Someone will probably know him anyway.   If he is then there will also be people who have had dealings with him and will know how to approach the matter. ie will you have to push him to court, is he all mouth and no trousers, how he gets his horses and what he does with them. There is a name for his enterprise and his address must be on the receipt. It cannot be too difficult to find horse keepers local to that area. O/P even has a relative in Ireland.

I agree with all your settling in bit and moving on in baby steps. I would have done that. I have always let horses settle in. If they can only be controlled because I jump on their back when they come out of the lorry and are confused then they are not for me. i don't understand all this rushing. They come to live with me for life. 

This approach would also have helped if Prince had been given bute. The bute would have worn off and, if he had problems, they would have started to show up. It may only have been slightly stiff, slightly lame, a bit niggly but they could have been investigated. 

Totally agree with dorsetladette about damage limitation as being the best way forward and to help Prince but OP doesn't seem interested in that  for some reason.


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## Pippity (15 July 2020)

Tiddlypom said:



			Because if it’s not ulcers, but hind gut acidosis instead, you will have wasted your money and the horse will be in discomfort for longer.

Vet, chiro vet and me were all convinced that one of mine had ulcers. I asked if we could skip the scope and go straight for gastroguard. Vet said we ought to confirm the ulcers first - we were all surprised that she was clear. Mare then responded  very favourably to the Succeed supplement for hind gut acidosis - there are no reliable tests for HGA on a live horse, only on post mortem exam.
		
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I had a similar situation. The vet said she was gobsmacked that the scope was one of the cleanest she'd ever seen. (My issue turned out to be a badly-fitting saddle, despite it having been given the all-clear by my fitter.)


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## doodle (15 July 2020)

What’s happening with Prince, Kiera?


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## The unicorn (15 July 2020)

I really feel for Karen she is really in big mass. The dealer is threatening  with suing her if she sends the horse back . He will probably make up a butch of lies and probably accuse her of ruining the horse if it does end up in court.  I now you husband wants the money back but I don’t think it worth the stress and upset if the dealer does go down the legal road.


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## stormox (15 July 2020)

EASTIE17 said:



			Hi, not to be negative, but as someone living in Ireland who has two daughters riding at a high level on ponies and do some breeding and buying and selling of Connemaras, unfortunately I believe there isnt a hope of you getting your money back. It would be difficult enough if you were living here but unless you were dealing with a very well known dealership, who frankly would only be dealing with animals worth 10K plus, who were worried about an international reputation would you have a chance. And those type of dealers I dare say wouldn't have allowed this to happen in the first place.
Occasionally someone in Ireland will take an animal back from a purchaser in Ireland, if the new rider feels its not suitable after a couple of weeks but they do that usually just on the basis of being nice. Once the animal gets to your yard/livery etc. most sellers, even private ones revert to "buyer beware" and on horses and ponies at this price range use the  "was fine at my yard" "never did that before" defence. Unless you had a blood test held independently by a vet for 6 months its very difficult, and that isnt always foolproof either.
I say that not to put the boot in but I think you are better off removing that as an option - that then I thinks makes your choices easier.

For example, here is a case that was in the Irish courts, it took 7 years and the plantiff is a very wealthy man who is Irish and has lots of good connections. It also was blatant fraud (bought 1 pony, got sent a different one that was inferior) so a bit more clearcut than your case, he also had deep pockets, lots of connections and was happy to wait 7 years for justice. Most regular people wouldn't have the money, patience or perseverance to pursue this.
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/cri...n-over-sale-of-wrong-pony-to-family-1.3846001

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I am in Ireland and I took an Irish dealer to small claims court. I believe you can use them up to 2500eu. I won a refund of my money, it was very easy to do and totally on line bar the actual court appearance.


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## Winters100 (15 July 2020)

dorsetladette said:



			I think YO started riding to 'help' OP as horse was a bit nappy from what I recall. I think this all relates to the feed the YO also recommended for weight gain (could be wrong) as the timing fits.



I'd use the time your 'stuck' with the unhelpful YO to get everything set up for your horse to have a good restart and positive educational experience.
		
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I'm not sure that OP feels that she is stuck with an unhelpful YO.  From what was written he rode the horse more forcefully than she would, but since she is a novice I would expect that. It may be that he did everything in a perfectly acceptable way but the horse still reared for whatever reason. It also subsequently did the same with OP while just being asked to walk to the school.  

Whatever any of us would do on acquiring a new horse, and of course we all have different opinions, whether to allow time to settle in or to get into a routine without delay, the fact remains that this horse was sold as a novice ride. In my opinion she did all the right things in keeping it on full livery with an experienced YO, asking him to nip some napping in the bud by riding the horse for her.  I would never expect rearing from a horse sold as suitable for a novice, however YO rode it.

As I understand Kiera is still thinking about what to do, and as so many experienced owners have differing views about this I think we can say that any of the options have some merit. It is a horrid situation and only Kiera can know what is best in the circumstances - and let's not forget that the harsh reality of finances do play a huge part in this.


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## milliepops (15 July 2020)

Winters100 said:



			I'm not sure that OP feels that she is stuck with an unhelpful YO.  From what was written he rode the horse more forcefully than she would, but since she is a novice I would expect that. It may be that he did everything in a perfectly acceptable way but the horse still reared for whatever reason. It also subsequently did the same with OP while just being asked to walk to the school. 

Whatever any of us would do on acquiring a new horse, and of course we all have different opinions, whether to allow time to settle in or to get into a routine without delay, the fact remains that this horse was sold as a novice ride. In my opinion she did all the right things in keeping it on full livery with an experienced YO, asking him to nip some napping in the bud by riding the horse for her.  I would never expect rearing from a horse sold as suitable for a novice, however YO rode it.

As I understand Kiera is still thinking about what to do, and as so many experienced owners have differing views about this I think we can say that any of the options have some merit. It is a horrid situation and only Kiera can know what is best in the circumstances - and let's not forget that the harsh reality of finances do play a huge part in this.
		
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I do agree with this post. I think there's been a lot of conjecture about what's happened or what the evil YO has been doing to ruin the chances of this horse settling in.  none of us really know that's what has happened.  From the outside, the OP seems to have done all the right things (since doing the big wrong thing of buying a horse unseen, but even in that naive act, it's not really her fault that a horse suitable for a first time owner was not what she ended up with, as that's what she had gone looking for).


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## Keira 8888 (15 July 2020)

paddy555 said:



			I wasn't going to post on here again as it seemed pointless, you are right about the furking in the dark ( never heard that before but I love it)
Advice is given and I am sure half of it is not listened to and the poor horse is at the centre of it all.
I would suggest one of the first things that should have been done is to get on the dodgy dealers page and find out about the dealer. Several people suggested it but it appeared to get little response.  Someone will know him if he is  dogdy. Someone will probably know him anyway.   If he is then there will also be people who have had dealings with him and will know how to approach the matter. ie will you have to push him to court, is he all mouth and no trousers, how he gets his horses and what he does with them. There is a name for his enterprise and his address must be on the receipt. It cannot be too difficult to find horse keepers local to that area. O/P even has a relative in Ireland.

I agree with all your settling in bit and moving on in baby steps. I would have done that. I have always let horses settle in. If they can only be controlled because I jump on their back when they come out of the lorry and are confused then they are not for me. i don't understand all this rushing. They come to live with me for life.

This approach would also have helped if Prince had been given bute. The bute would have worn off and, if he had problems, they would have started to show up. It may only have been slightly stiff, slightly lame, a bit niggly but they could have been investigated.

Totally agree with dorsetladette about damage limitation as being the best way forward and to help Prince but OP doesn't seem interested in that  for some reason.
		
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Oh my goodness - I’m so shocked you would say that. I have investigated the dealer fully. They have an international reputation. They have 5 star reviews from last week to 5 years ago. Of course I am interested in pursuing any angle that can help me or this horse. If you are talking in terms if due diligence let me reassure you - I have done this. They are not on the dodgy dealers page.

As for damage limitation - I have been up pretty much every night from 11pm to 4pm researching - I have paid for Prince to have a vetting, dentist, farrier, saddle fitter, second visit from saddle fitter to check half pad, professional trainer, - what more damage limitation could I reasonably have been expected to do. I have observed this horse for weeks without stressing him and been told conflicting “professional views” from the very beginning. I haven’t worked him enough, I’ve worked him TOO much, I havent been gentle enough, Ive been TOO gentle. All I am trying to do is the best thing by this horse. It’s causing rifts within my whole family because they don’t understand why I won’t give up on him. You can accuse me of buying unseen and buying too big a horse and you are absolutely RIGHT, but please, please, dont accuse me of not caring or not trying to Investigate and rectify this situation. I am doing my very best


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## Meowy Catkin (15 July 2020)

Keira, I have no doubts at all that you are doing your best. 

I really hope that everything works out in the end.


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## Wishfilly (15 July 2020)

Keira, please make sure you look after your own health in all of this- you've been put in an awful situation, and from what you say it sounds like Prince is not in any distress in the field. You don't have to try and solve this or come to a firm decision in a few days, despite what people online may say.

You will always find conflicting professional views in the horse world. There's more than one good way of doing things (and several less good ones). I think, sometimes, it's easier to pick one person you really trust, and follow their advice, rather than trying to take everyone's on board. 

You sound like someone with your heart in the right place, and it sounds like you are trying your best, which is all anyone can do. It's so easy for all of us to say what we'd do from behind a keyboard- but I doubt anyone on here can honestly say they've done everything perfectly with every horse they've ridden/owned.


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## misst (15 July 2020)

Kiera I wasn't going to comment again but just feel that you have done your best and some of the things you have been accused of are a bit rich. As I said previously we have ALL made mistakes so lets not all get on our high horses. OP has tried so hard and is not walking away but she does need time and support not bombardment with speculation and accusation.
Kiera wishing you all the best and hoping you do find the right horse eventually.


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## Cherryblossom (15 July 2020)

I think it’s perfectly clear that you’re a wonderful owner to Prince. Take time to decide what course of action is best for you, your family and Prince. You need to make a decision that you can live with.
And yes, buying unseen is risky; but look at how many threads there’s been over the years of experienced owners running into major problems. There’s an active thread at the moment about your biggest equine mistake; it can happen to anyone.


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## Upthecreek (15 July 2020)

Whatever you decide to do don’t rush into making a bad decision. You need to make an informed decision that you can live with, based on what’s right for you and your family as well as the horse. Did you contact the BHS legal helpline for advice?


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## splashgirl45 (15 July 2020)

as others have said, you have done a good job with prince and have tried to do the right thing.  someone said you had rushed, i think you took it pretty slowly and let him get used to you and his new home and then started to ride and although it started out ok things didnt go according to plan and you asked your YO to ride him.  you have said YO wasnt nasty in any way just more firm than you were and if he was as advertised he wouldnt be rearing when someone asks him to go forward.  whatever you decide please dont fall out at home over this horse as you have your children to think about and a broken relationship wont help.    you have had lots of opinions on here and maybe it is time to stop looking at this thread and make your mind up about how you will proceed.  it would be nice to have an update if you feel able to cope with the comments.  whatever you do, good luck and try not to beat yourself up...


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## Dave's Mam (15 July 2020)

Hi OP.
Just read this whole thread & I just want to offer my support.
It's a whole mess & you are doing your best.  Take care of yourself, otherwise you'll do your OWN health harm.
You've had lots of opinions, good & not so good, kind & not very kind at all.
I hope you are ok.


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## Patchworkpony (15 July 2020)

OP you talked about Prince being a field ornament if necessary all I can say is good for you. I was sold a lame pony when I was young and had no one to guide me. I kept him as a pet and never regretted giving him a good home.  There are so many unscrupulous people out there who will unload any poor horse onto any poor sucker. However we need good guys like you who care. Whatever the outcome with Prince please try to take it in your stride and remember he may be your first horse but he won’t be your last. One of the downsides of keeping horses is they will often break your heart but the upside is that they teach us so much about dealing with life and our own strengths.

 Horses and particularly native ponies taught me to take things on the chin and this attitude that I learnt from equine ownership has got me through some really sticky moments in life. Please accept no personal blame for any of this it isn’t your fault. I applaud you for caring so much and know that you WILL come out the other side.


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## Tihamandturkey (15 July 2020)

Dave's Mam said:



			Hi OP.
Just read this whole thread & I just want to offer my support.
It's a whole mess & you are doing your best.  Take care of yourself, otherwise you'll do your OWN health harm.
You've had lots of opinions, good & not so good, kind & not very kind at all.
I hope you are ok.
		
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This 100% - look after yourself x


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## Firefly9410 (15 July 2020)

The unicorn said:



			I really feel for Karen she is really in big mass. The dealer is threatening  with suing her if she sends the horse back . He will probably make up a butch of lies and probably accuse her of ruining the horse if it does end up in court.  I now you husband wants the money back but I don’t think it worth the stress and upset if the dealer does go down the legal road.
		
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Dealers would not have a leg to stand on if they tried to sue Keira. Sue for what?! Legally she is entitled to a refund. It is scare tactics for intimidation to make her go away. Ditto saying she was unreasonable and aggressive to his wife or whatever the exact wording was. Trying to make Keira doubt herself and go away. 


Keira 8888 said:



			Oh my goodness - I’m so shocked you would say that. I have investigated the dealer fully. They have an international reputation. They have 5 star reviews from last week to 5 years ago. Of course I am interested in pursuing any angle that can help me or this horse. If you are talking in terms if due diligence let me reassure you - I have done this. They are not on the dodgy dealers page.

As for damage limitation - I have been up pretty much every night from 11pm to 4pm researching - I have paid for Prince to have a vetting, dentist, farrier, saddle fitter, second visit from saddle fitter to check half pad, professional trainer, - what more damage limitation could I reasonably have been expected to do. I have observed this horse for weeks without stressing him and been told conflicting “professional views” from the very beginning. I haven’t worked him enough, I’ve worked him TOO much, I havent been gentle enough, Ive been TOO gentle. All I am trying to do is the best thing by this horse. It’s causing rifts within my whole family because they don’t understand why I won’t give up on him. You can accuse me of buying unseen and buying too big a horse and you are absolutely RIGHT, but please, please, dont accuse me of not caring or not trying to Investigate and rectify this situation. I am doing my very best
		
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Ah but if it did not happen publicly online then it obviously never happened #eyeroll! Some people live their lives online and forget others do not. Ignore them.  

Did the rearing start before or after Prince was worked in the arena? In addition to perhaps bute wearing off and a perhaps out of work horse being brought back into work for the first time in ages, there is the factor of many slightly crocked horses being fine for hacking or field work but their broken bodies being unable to cope with the constant turns and circles of schooling or the arena surface itself. If you have the vet and they find any lameness a cheap solution to try is a bute trial which is as it sounds and it either works to make a horse comfortable or rideable or else it does not. Lots of old horses happily pottering about in light work on bute. It is your decision if you think working a buted horse is ethical or not. For some people their decision would depend on the diagnosis which a bute trial alone will not give you.


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## Lintel (15 July 2020)

Felt the need to comment as others have, but only to applaud you on your sincerity and calmness throughout this full thread. It's clear you have the horses needs at heart. 
Whatever you decide to do I'm sure you will do the right thing by you and your family. All the best. 
❤️


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## fredflop (16 July 2020)

Lintel said:



			Felt the need to comment as others have, but only to applaud you on your sincerity and calmness throughout this full thread. It's clear you have the horses needs at heart. 
Whatever you decide to do I'm sure you will do the right thing by you and your family. All the best. 
❤️
		
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Pretty much this... there have been the usual “gossips” on this thread.... whatever the OP says is then twisted. The horse is an ex racer, the YO is some kind of evil bully monster etc etc


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## Slightlyconfused (16 July 2020)

ester said:



			full veterinary work up required.

Please don’t offer the horse as free to good home, people can be very believable and sell them on so at best they do the rounds of the bin end dealers.
		
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Yep this, send into the vet for a full work up along with the videos of the advert. 

Also the hives, what is he being fed? One of mine comes up in hives when fed alfalfa. Turns him into a hyped up child


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## Slightlyconfused (16 July 2020)

Sorry phone just caught with the amount of pages 🤦‍♀️


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## tristar (16 July 2020)

its well known that tb`s tend to go up at the front, when stressed,  if the horse was a little nappy, the thing i would do would be to back off completely and not allow the horse to rear.

i would not look to the family for support, or the yard owner, dealing with tbs and other highly bred or  highly strung horses needs a confident and quiet approach understanding where the horse is coming from, not condemning them  out of hand, but this calls for experience and a kind of horsemanship that sees the problem for what it is.

ok we can`t see the reality and be there in person, just say what we would do with the info available, its only opinions, based on what we have been through ourselves, in the hope  of parting the black clouds of  misery that these horsey situation bring, and hoping that some sunshine can come out of the outcome or at the very least the clarity of understanding some of what is happening might lead to progress.


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## The unicorn (16 July 2020)

Firefly9410 said:



			Dealers would not have a leg to stand on if they tried to sue Keira. Sue for what?! Legally she is entitled to a refund. It is scare tactics for intimidation to make her go away. Ditto saying she was unreasonable and aggressive to his wife or whatever the exact wording was. Trying to make Keira doubt herself and go away.
		
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My friend was sued by dealer a few years ago she bought a pony turned out to be a complete nut job. (Dangerous bucking)The dealer ended up suing my friend for returning the horse. The dealer end  winning because of the lack of evidence.  My friend sued  the dealer  after that and ended getting the money back. 

Op if you’re going down the route get video footage of the horse misbehaving.  if my friend had proof she would have won the first time. I would not  fall out with your family over a horse.


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## FestiveFuzz (16 July 2020)

The unicorn said:



			My friend was sued by dealer a few years ago she bought a pony turned out to be a complete nut job. (Dangerous bucking)The dealer ended up suing my friend for returning the horse. The dealer end  winning because of the lack of evidence.  My friend sued  the dealer  after that and ended getting the money back.

Op if you’re going down the route get video footage of the horse misbehaving.  if my friend had proof she would have won the first time. I would not  fall out with your family over a horse.
		
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I'm not sure how this would work? Buying from a dealer would surely have entitled your friend to return the horse within 30 days regardless of reason so I'm not sure how the dealer could consequently sue someone for returning a horse, what was the basis for them suing your friend?


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## Trouper (16 July 2020)

The unicorn said:



			I would not fall out with your family over a horse
		
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Well there's falling out and then there's having a considered and careful discussion of all the issues involved and respecting the other person's point of view.   But at the end of the day, if the horse's welfare was at stake, I think I would have to fight his corner for him.  I am not sure I would feel the same about the relationship if an animal's welfare were being sacrificed to it.


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## Ish2020 (16 July 2020)

I only read this now I have been on this forum for awhile. I don’t think this is a horse for you. Normality Tb aren’t suitable for first time owners and buying your first horse unseen is a  disaster in the making  . I think it’s funny that people think Irish horse are way cheaper in reality you get what you’re pay for. A good first horse in Ireland would cost you at least €5000. I learn that the hard way. I was 18 when I bought my first horse she was very green but she was 13 when I bought her.  Op you need to sell or return the horse before someone gets serious hurt. I not trying to be harsh but I telling the truth. I say it how I see it I don’t sugar coat it or lie about it.


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## Keira 8888 (16 July 2020)

Thank you so much everyone for your replies - I know this is the most exhausting draining thread! I appreciate your messages so much. So I have an update. Tried to trace the original microchip number today and it was 14 digits instead of 15. So my vet is going to come back and re-scam just to make sure he didn’t miss out a number!

Prince is doing well in his field. Went to give him his apple and a good scratch today. He seems very bright and happy. Made the mistake of watching “ride like a girl” last night to cheer my daughter up. Hadn’t researched the film before I watched it (can you see a pattern here??! 😫) and what does the horse turn out to be named?? YEP! Prince!! And looks exactly the same as Prince too! But the film is SO SO good - I really recommend it. Had the most lovely day today - an elderly man in the village heard about our story and invited my daughter to come and ride his beautiful old cob called Skye. We had the loveliest day hacking around the village and exploring. Just goes to show - there are some incredibly kind people out there who are willing to help strangers. It’s very humbling. I want to thank each and every person who has replied to this mammoth thread - I am coming out of this so much wiser and with a thicker skin. I have had some incredibly kind direct messages and to be quite frank - without you, I would be an emotional heap on the floor right now. Onwards and upwards. Will keep you all updated on what happens next.


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## misst (16 July 2020)

That is wonderful! A real treat for your daughter - and if the kids are happy then you'll be happy  x  Keep on keeping on and you'll get there.


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## Keira 8888 (16 July 2020)

misst said:



			That is wonderful! A real treat for your daughter - and if the kids are happy then you'll be happy  x  Keep on keeping on and you'll get there.
		
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So true!!! Thank you 😊 xx


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## tristar (16 July 2020)

so happy you had a nice horse day xx


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## Keira 8888 (16 July 2020)

tristar said:



			so happy you had a nice horse day xx
		
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Thank you!!!! Xxx


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## Chinchilla (16 July 2020)

Glad your daughter and yourself had a nice day, god knows you both deserve it. I hope she is okay too. It must be quite a confusing and worrying situation for a nine year old. 
And I might be a bit biased but gentle old cobs are the best  <3


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## ycbm (16 July 2020)

Keira you have been amazingly cool, collected and polite in the face of some very challenging posts.  You're a great addition to the forum. I hope to follow your story as you find and enjoy the right horse.  
.


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## Keira 8888 (16 July 2020)

ycbm said:



			Keira you have been amazingly cool, collected and polite in the face of some very challenging posts.  You're a great addition to the forum. I hope to follow your story as you find and enjoy the right horse. 
.
		
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Thank you so much - such a kind thing to say. Every forum needs an inexperienced plonker and I will use this experience to do good!


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## ITPersonnage (16 July 2020)

We've all been there to one degree or another, I'm another who's been seriously impressed at how you've managed to keep polite against some fairly aggressive responses  Best of luck to you and your daughter


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## poiuytrewq (16 July 2020)

Keira 8888 said:



			Thank you so much - such a kind thing to say. Every forum needs an inexperienced plonker and I will use this experience to do good!
		
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It’s going through the bad bits aswell as the good that gives experience!  
Might Sky the cob be able to be a regular thing maybe? 🤞


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## Keira 8888 (16 July 2020)

poiuytrewq said:



			It’s going through the bad bits aswell as the good that gives experience! 
Might Sky the cob be able to be a regular thing maybe? 🤞
		
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I’m hoping it may be!!!!! I bought the elderly gentleman who owns her a sunflower in a pot to say thank you and he actually had tears in his eyes!! He watched us bathing her after the ride and seemed very nostalgic! He lost his wife last November and I think he’s quite lonely ☹️ We all had so much fun together - he used to run a very successful livery yard with his wife and I learned loads today! He says we could come back whenever we liked - very exciting!


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## Keira 8888 (16 July 2020)

ITPersonnage said:



			We've all been there to one degree or another, I'm another who's been seriously impressed at how you've managed to keep polite against some fairly aggressive responses  Best of luck to you and your daughter
		
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Thank you very much xxx


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## poiuytrewq (16 July 2020)

Keira 8888 said:



			I’m hoping it may be!!!!! I bought the elderly gentleman who owns her a sunflower in a pot to say thank you and he actually had tears in his eyes!! He watched us bathing her after the ride and seemed very nostalgic! He lost his wife last November and I think he’s quite lonely ☹️ We all had so much fun together - he used to run a very successful livery yard with his wife and I learned loads today! He says we could come back whenever we liked - very exciting!
		
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I love that! Maybe you could all be good for each other? X


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## Keira 8888 (16 July 2020)

poiuytrewq said:



			I love that! Maybe you could all be good for each other? X
		
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Maybe it’s fate! Just need to make sure Prince has a happy ending now too 🙏


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## poiuytrewq (17 July 2020)

Keira 8888 said:



			Maybe it’s fate! Just need to make sure Prince has a happy ending now too 🙏
		
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I really do respect that. A lot would just want him gone regardless. Best of luck x


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## Trouper (17 July 2020)

Keira 8888 said:



			I’m hoping it may be!!!!! I bought the elderly gentleman who owns her a sunflower in a pot to say thank you and he actually had tears in his eyes!! He watched us bathing her after the ride and seemed very nostalgic! He lost his wife last November and I think he’s quite lonely ☹️ We all had so much fun together - he used to run a very successful livery yard with his wife and I learned loads today! He says we could come back whenever we liked - very exciting!
		
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Sometimes Heaven really does have a plan!!    Sounds like you could give a lot to each other.


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## Tarragon (17 July 2020)

Oh what a heart warming update! 
I think that your lovely elderly man is going to be a treasure and I hope that it is the start of a great relationship for all of you.
So pleased for you.


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## Keira 8888 (17 July 2020)

Tarragon said:



			Oh what a heart warming update!
I think that your lovely elderly man is going to be a treasure and I hope that it is the start of a great relationship for all of you.
So pleased for you.
		
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Thank you very much, it really lifted our spirits I must say. He is such a kindly old soul.  Funny how things work out sometimes. He came out at the end with a sweat scraper, body brush and curry comb for my daughter as gift. It was my turn to have tears in my eyes at that point! X


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## Red-1 (17 July 2020)

I am so happy for you, sounds like a perfect time with the cob. 

I too have appreciated your positivity on this forum, not just on your own posts, but also when posting to others.


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## Keira 8888 (17 July 2020)

Red-1 said:



			I am so happy for you, sounds like a perfect time with the cob.

I too have appreciated your positivity on this forum, not just on your own posts, but also when posting to others.
		
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God I’m so bloody emotional at the moment - I’m now in tears because you said that. Thank you 🙏 When the chips are down it means the world when someone is kind xxx


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## Keira 8888 (23 July 2020)

UPDATE!

hi everyone,

Hope you are all well.

I just wanted to give an update on my enormous thread!!

After much soul searching and changing my decision on a daily basis for a week - I have decided to keep Prince but give him a year off to live a happy, calm life for a while. I have made this decision based on the provision that my daughter understands that she can never ever ride him - no matter how well he comes back into work after his time off. ( we will be doing that under the guidance of a professional when the time comes) She happily accepted this and I was very proud of her.

At the end of the day, I just couldnt let him  go. But fortunately I am 100% resolute that this is the right decision.

He is doing very well - after removing the HiFi that contained alfalfa from his diet his hives have disappeared. His nose is almost back to normal after I have been bathing it each day with very diluted medicated shampoo.

I feel that he is happy, relaxed and secure. My daughter and I have just come back from seeing him and we had a lovely scratching session and some fun groundwork games.

Thank you to everyone who has stuck with this thread - it has saved my sanity more than once I can tell you!

It feels SO good to be ending this with a truly positive outcome for all of us. And my daughter continues to ride the elderly gentleman’s cob!

Thank you everyone x 
Ps the 2nd microchip is still a mystery! A vet came out yesterday to read it again (as  the original vet recorded it as 14 digits instead of 15!) but their microchip reader was broken! So that mystery will continue! Will keep you updated. In the meantime, I am paying for a full medical work up and chiropractor etc. to make sure he isn’t in any pain. That would defeat the purpose of his well deserved time off in the field! X


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## Flicker (23 July 2020)

He’s a lucky boy.


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## Amirah (23 July 2020)

Very lucky ☺


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## tristar (23 July 2020)

well done kiera,   you sound much happier, hope the workup goes well


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## ihatework (23 July 2020)

Lucky horse 😀


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## ycbm (23 July 2020)

He is a very lucky horse,  but why a year off? At his age,  that might not actually be the best thing for him. I'm sorry to be the damp squib here,  but it's obvious how much you want the best for him.  
.


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## Sleipnir (23 July 2020)

Very happy how things turned out for Prince! Good luck!


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## Keira 8888 (23 July 2020)

ycbm said:



			He is a very lucky horse,  but why a year off? At his age,  that might not actually be the best thing for him. I'm sorry to be the damp squib here,  but it's obvious how much you want the best for him. 
.
		
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You’re not bring a damp squib at all, maybe a year off is a bit excessive! I guess I just want him to have some time to rest and enjoy himself without being asked to do anything. I did wonder whether that might be making a rod for my own back - and I want to keep him moving so he doesnt stiffen up. I’ve made a promise to my husband that I will never ride him again - (lets hope he never finds this thread 😳) that was the only condition for letting me keep him. But obviously I have my own sculdugerous plan that when the time is right I will get a professional in to help me AND Prince. And I will ride him. I guess I don’t know what the next three months hold, let alone a year, so I’m going to see how Prince is doing each week and plan accordingly. At the moment, my head is still reeling from the excitement of keeping him. X


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## ForeverBroke_ (23 July 2020)

All sounds positive Keira.

Hopefully the full work up from the vet will give you an idea of what exactly is going on with him, and give you an idea of how best to manage any underlying condition or pain he may/may not have/ in turn be able to advise you as to what kind of ridden career he may have.

Best of luck xx


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## KittenInTheTree (23 July 2020)

Best of luck with him. If the alfalfa is an issue, then be sure to read the ingredients for everything that he eats from now on - you'd be surprised how many feeds and supplements include alfalfa (also called lucerne) and/or soya, which can also trigger some horses.


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## dorsetladette (23 July 2020)

I'm really happy for you. Sounds like the old gentleman came along just at the right time. I'm a firm believer that everything happens for a reason. 

Keep us updated X


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## Ownedby4horses (23 July 2020)

He is a very lucky boy to have found you and I am pleased for his sake that he will stay with you.  I'm a great believer that animals (and people) come into others lives at particular times for a reason. Well done Keira (I dont mean to sound patronising), i think youve truly shown throughout this thread what a lovely person you are and how much you can give to others (even whilst battling your own health problems). x


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## Pearlsasinger (23 July 2020)

I am so pleased for Prince!  I honestly wouldn't be surprised if there is very little wrong with him, except the ill-effects of alfalfa but you certainly will feel better for having him thoroughly checked over by a vet.


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## Lex2009 (23 July 2020)

Hopefully he will work out for you he is a very lucky boy .


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## Ish2020 (23 July 2020)

At the end of the day he is not going to turn into a perfect horse just because you’re giving him 1 year off and the feed isn’t causing that type of behavior .


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## holeymoley (23 July 2020)

Ish2020 said:



			At the end of the day he is not going to turn into a perfect horse just because you’re giving him 1 year off and the feed isn’t causing that type of behavior .
		
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Bit of a rude reply. 

No it might not turn him into the perfect horse and it also may not be the feed but it's a start and the OP is happy to offer him the security of a home in the meantime so why not.


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## fredflop (23 July 2020)

My advice for his full work up is do your research and have it planned exactly what you want the vet to do - insurance or no insurance.

take him directly to vet hospital, don’t get the vet out to see him at home.

for the basics I’d suggest nerve blocks on his legs, any scans etc that are required from that; back X-ray and a scope for ulcers. The more you can get covered in one visit, the better value for money you can get. (Ie not having to pay for two examinations, two lots of sedation etc)


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## CanteringCarrot (23 July 2020)

I agree with taking him to a vet hospital since everything is right there. No need to worry about what can be done in the field vs at the clinic. 

I think you have a good approach. If he gets plenty of turnout and some interaction, he will probably be ok with this arrangement. Keep us posted on how things go with the vet. Best of luck moving forward with everything.


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## Pinkvboots (23 July 2020)

Ish2020 said:



			At the end of the day he is not going to turn into a perfect horse just because you’re giving him 1 year off and the feed isn’t causing that type of behavior .
		
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The wrong food can cause all types of different behaviour and seen as it caused hives it could have caused the rearing, one of my Arabs on molasses is the devil


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## ycbm (23 July 2020)

Ish2020 said:



			At the end of the day he is not going to turn into a perfect horse just because you’re giving him 1 year off and the feed isn’t causing that type of behavior .
		
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The feed can easily be causing it.  My Appyx  rears in hand and strikes out (he got my hat and  put a hole in it once) when fed alfalfa. Never any other time, he's a really gentle soul. 
.


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## tristar (23 July 2020)

three different vets told me there was no hope for a pony i had 45 years ago, and to put him down,  he recovered and  lived into old age, so many things work out that we don`t expect to, lets hope this time its with prince, because no one knows yet and all you can do is try


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## paddy555 (23 July 2020)

Pinkvboots said:



			The wrong food can cause all types of different behaviour and seen as it caused hives it could have caused the rearing, one of my Arabs on molasses is the devil
		
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it doesn't take much of the wrong feed. I had one barefoot who went footy on hi fibre, he was  affected by alfalfa in a chop but he could eat any quantity of alfalfa nuts. Another who a nutritionalist put on a diet that included cereal. On day 2 I was lucky to get home on him. Staying on was safer than getting off as he just stood up being led.

It doesn't take much. I am pleased the alfafa has caused the hives. Quick answer to a problem.
I too wouldn't be surprised if there was very little wrong with Prince and that he could be sorted.

Lovely to hear a positive update on him. Lucky Prince. I am glad he has a future, many would have sent him back so well done for keeping him. 

Now you have plenty of time I would start taking long reining lessons and then long him around quiet roads and common and your fields. If you found he long reined beautifully it may give you confidence that someone would be able to ride at some stage. OTOH if he was a nightmare, kept napping/refusing etc it may show up more problems.


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## Keira 8888 (23 July 2020)

Ownedby4horses said:



			He is a very lucky boy to have found you and I am pleased for his sake that he will stay with you.  I'm a great believer that animals (and people) come into others lives at particular times for a reason. Well done Keira (I dont mean to sound patronising), i think youve truly shown throughout this thread what a lovely person you are and how much you can give to others (even whilst battling your own health problems). x
		
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Thank you very much 😃 Very kind xx


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## Woodsy94 (23 July 2020)

He’s a very lucky boy, and I take my hat off to you for everything you do, have done for him... he’s definitely landed on his hoofs with you! You should be very proud... I also agree that food can have an impact on them, my TB turns like a fire breathing dragon on Alfa-A 

All the best xxx


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## southerncomfort (23 July 2020)

This is a lovely update.  🙂

Just out of interest, has their been any improvement in his general leading and handling?  I think you said he was a bit nappy and silly to bring out of the field etc.


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## Keira 8888 (23 July 2020)

southerncomfort said:



			This is a lovely update.  🙂

Just out of interest, has their been any improvement in his general leading and handling?  I think you said he was a bit nappy and silly to bring out of the field etc.
		
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Yes - there has been actually thank you! I have led him beautifully to be groomed at the yard in the last few days and he behaved beautifully! Ever since I changed his wretched food! He just seems calmer and more settled. Such a small thing but this has made me feel so good about our relationship - that he is happy to potter along next to me without me having to be too strong and yank at him. Luckily I have all the time in the world to wait out his “napping” - he must have decided it’s just not worth it ha!


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## southerncomfort (23 July 2020)

Keira 8888 said:



			Yes - there has been actually thank you! I have led him beautifully to be groomed at the yard in the last few days and he behaved beautifully! Ever since I changed his wretched food! He just seems calmer and more settled. Such a small thing but this has made me feel so good about our relationship - that he is happy to potter along next to me without me having to be too strong and yank at him. Luckily I have all the time in the world to wait out his “napping” - he must have decided it’s just not worth it ha!
		
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Great stuff! 🙂


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## Trouper (23 July 2020)

Love a happy ending!  Whatever life throws at the pair of you I am sure you will find enormous peace of mind in the decision you have taken.


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## Winters100 (23 July 2020)

Ish2020 said:



			At the end of the day he is not going to turn into a perfect horse just because you’re giving him 1 year off and the feed isn’t causing that type of behavior .
		
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Oh - where was the post where OP said that a year off was going to do that?   I must have missed it.  As I recall she said that she was going to do extensive veterinary investigations and if all went well would try working with a pro after a year.  So hardly assuming that a year off is turning him into a 'perfect horse'.


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## fusspot (23 July 2020)

Pleased to hear that you have made a decision which keeps you all in a happy place.Everybody has there different ways of wanting to deal with things.....there is definetly no right or wrong...50% would keep him....50% would return him...at the end of the day no decision is the right decision but everybody has to make the decision that is best for them.
I think you are doing the right thing in getting a full check over.Personally if I was in your shoes...as there is no definite Lameness or obvious pain areas, the cheapest and easiest way is to speak to the vet about a bone scan.
One of my clients horses was very explosive and the only thing that showed was a very slight outward bend on the right rein only....literally nothing else to see.
I knew there was something and vets were convinced it was his neck...he went into the vets and they agreed there was something not right but couldn’t put their finger on it...neck x ray showed nothing so they did a bone scan...totally pain free but highlights any hotspots which can then direct the vets to an area to start looking at.In this horse it was actually both front suspensories..totally surprised everybody.Horse had rest and treatment and now fine.Without the bone scan they could have been fumbling in the dark and costing a fortune.Please keep us updated....maybe a new thread...PRINCE....THE NEXT CHAPTER.


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## ILuvCowparsely (23 July 2020)

So many things come to mind


Kissing spine other issues
Tumours,
feed related
ulcers
trapped nerve

What does your vet say?

Personally I would speak to old owner but if they washed their hands of him, I would be vet next, get them to run tests on him.

Just one thing I read somewhere of a horse acting similar to this and he was pts but turned out to be tooth related after the pts they found one tooth going into the upper jaw    
(I know you said you had teeth done) but was that a EDT or the vet?   I felt sorry for this horse after this.   It is great your keeping him though 



Just found this one too  https://www.horseandhound.co.uk/new...-horse-due-put-treated-unqualified-edt-694817




.


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## Chinchilla (23 July 2020)

Keira, really sorry to be 'that' person, I think I am not alone in saying that it is a bit concerning you haven't mentioned having a vet workup done yet? Personally I wouldn't be making any decisions about his future without doing one, as he may be uncomfortable even in the field depending on what, if there is one, physical issue(s) he has? Apologies if I have missed anything though.


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## Keira 8888 (23 July 2020)

Chinchilla said:



			Keira, really sorry to be 'that' person, I think I am not alone in saying that it is a bit concerning you haven't mentioned having a vet workup done yet? Personally I wouldn't be making any decisions about his future without doing one, as he may be uncomfortable even in the field depending on what, if there is one, physical issue(s) he has? Apologies if I have missed anything though.
		
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No no - no need to apologise. I completely get what you’re saying. I had an initial vetting done but it wasn’t full scale. E.g not the most comprehensive I could have paid for. He passed this initial vetting with no issues at all other than a small cataract in his eye which vet said could have been there from birth.  He wasn’t exhibiting any signs of discomfort so I didn’t feel the need to investigate cold back, ulcers, arthritis etc.. it was only when he reared (with hives) that I did. But now Ive seen this behaviour, and also witnessed his incredible temperament on the ground, I know something is up, and I will find out what it is. X


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## AandK (23 July 2020)

Chinchilla said:



			Keira, really sorry to be 'that' person, I think I am not alone in saying that it is a bit concerning you haven't mentioned having a vet workup done yet? Personally I wouldn't be making any decisions about his future without doing one, as he may be uncomfortable even in the field depending on what, if there is one, physical issue(s) he has? Apologies if I have missed anything though.
		
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The last two sentences of post 441 OP says she will have vet investigations.


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## Keira 8888 (23 July 2020)

ILuvCowparsely said:



			So many things come to mind


Kissing spine other issues
Tumours,
feed related
ulcers
trapped nerve

What does your vet say?

Personally I would speak to old owner but if they washed their hands of him, I would be vet next, get them to run tests on him.

Just one thing I read somewhere of a horse acting similar to this and he was pts but turned out to be tooth related (I know you said you had teeth done) but was that a EDT or the vet?   I felt sorry for this horse after this.   It is great your keeping him though 



Just found this one too  https://www.horseandhound.co.uk/new...-horse-due-put-treated-unqualified-edt-694817




.
		
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All valid points. I will have all of these investigated. We have changed his feed and it’s made a huge difference thank god. But everything else you mention will be investigated. I will report back!


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## Alwaysmoretoknow (23 July 2020)

Reiterate what other people have said about Prince being one very lucky ponio. Lots of people talk about rescuing horses but I think in Prince's case you have genuinely rescued him from a horrible life of being passed from one dodgy dealer and unsuitable home to the next and ending up in a downward spiral of abuse and neglect. He probably literally owes you his life. 
If you decide to/fancy taking him for walkies around your village and need a wingman/extra pair of hands/someone to chitchat about life and horses drop me a message and we can go for a stroll sometime. You are an inspiration to us all.


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## Pinkvboots (23 July 2020)

Chinchilla said:



			Keira, really sorry to be 'that' person, I think I am not alone in saying that it is a bit concerning you haven't mentioned having a vet workup done yet? Personally I wouldn't be making any decisions about his future without doing one, as he may be uncomfortable even in the field depending on what, if there is one, physical issue(s) he has? Apologies if I have missed anything though.
		
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I think it really does sound like it was the feed as the hives have gone and his back to his calm self, so maybe extensive test are not needed now as he passed a vetting, I would be inclined to have the vet out and explain the situation and see what they suggest.


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## Chinchilla (23 July 2020)

Pinkvboots said:



			I think it really does sound like it was the feed as the hives have gone and his back to his calm self, so maybe extensive test are not needed now as he passed a vetting, I would be inclined to have the vet out and explain the situation and see what they suggest.
		
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Is vertical rearing not a bit of an extreme reaction though, or is it not unusual as a reaction to alfalfa? Genuine question, I've never dealt with feed sensitivities.


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## ycbm (23 July 2020)

Chinchilla said:



			Is vertical rearing not a bit of an extreme reaction though, or is it not unusual as a reaction to alfalfa? Genuine question, I've never dealt with feed sensitivities.
		
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I dont know how unusual it is, C, but I have often wished I'd taken a picture of my hat.  I don't know if I would have survived if I hadn't been wearing it,  it was a jockey skull cap with a hole right through it.  

The horse is a gentle,  sweet,  submissive creature unless he gets a few grams of alfalfa, when the mania in his eyes is visible. 
.


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## Keira 8888 (23 July 2020)

ycbm said:



			I dont know how unusual it is, C, but I have often wished I'd taken a picture of my hat.  I don't know if I would have survived if I hadn't been wearing it,  it was a jockey skull cap with a hole right through it. 

The horse is a gentle,  sweet,  submissive creature unless he gets a few grams of alfalfa, when the mania in his eyes is visible.


This is so interesting - what is it about the Alfa A?? Why does it seem to send so many crazy??
		
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## Pinkvboots (23 July 2020)

Chinchilla said:



			Is vertical rearing not a bit of an extreme reaction though, or is it not unusual as a reaction to alfalfa? Genuine question, I've never dealt with feed sensitivities.
		
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I fed my Arab power and performance once by accident and had a ride from hell and if fed molasses he is an absolute idiot, he also bucks if the horse flies are bad and he very rarely bucks really so certain things can trigger a strong response, so I guess it could cause such a reaction especially as prince had hives on his face as well they may have driven him mad.


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## Pearlsasinger (23 July 2020)

Keira 8888 said:



			All valid points. I will have all of these investigated. We have changed his feed and it’s made a huge difference thank god. But everything else you mention will be investigated. I will report back!
		
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I honestly would not be too quick to spend a load of money on chasing an elusive 'cause' for the behaviour.  If you had had Prince for a year and started to feed him on alfalfa, maybe going into winter, you would probably have just thought 'that's not like him' and changed the food back, before the behaviour got too extreme.  Which isn't to say don't let the vet have a look at him but when they don't find anything obvious, please don't think 'it must be something' and end up spending thousands, when you already know the answer -alfalfa.
There are a lot of one horse owners who have no experience of horses reacting to food, who simply do not understand how drastically it can change their behaviour.  We even had one who couldn't be given carrots because they made her completely hyper, even in hand.


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## Keira 8888 (23 July 2020)

Pearlsasinger said:



			I honestly would not be too quick to spend a load of money on chasing an elusive 'cause' for the behaviour.  If you had had Prince for a year and started to feed him on alfalfa, maybe going into winter, you would probably have just thought 'that's not like him' and changed the food back, before the behaviour got too extreme.  Which isn't to say don't let the vet have a look at him but when they don't find anything obvious, please don't think 'it must be something' and end up spending thousands, when you already know the answer -alfalfa.
There are a lot of one horse owners who have no experience of horses reacting to food, who simply do not understand how drastically it can change their behaviour.  We even had one who couldn't be given carrots because they made her completely hyper, even in hand.
		
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That is so strange you say that - we have given him carrots only twice and (without keeping a diary) something in my head remembers him being very different the next day. What do you think could be in carrots that could affect him? X


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## Pearlsasinger (23 July 2020)

I'm not sure, it could just be the amount of sugar but I don't think there is that much tbh.  Our Appaloosa mare that couldn't cope with carrots was the one we couldn't give alfalfa either - it really affected her very badly.  I also know a person who can't eat raw carrots because they 'burn' her throat.


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## Keira 8888 (23 July 2020)

Pinkvboots said:



			I fed my Arab power and performance once by accident and had a ride from hell and if fed molasses he is an absolute idiot, he also bucks if the horse flies are bad and he very rarely bucks really so certain things can trigger a strong response, so I guess it could cause such a reaction especially as prince had hives on his face as well they may have driven him mad.
		
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Stupid question I’m sure - but how bad do we think hives could cause a horse to feel? I’ve done research and many docs say they don’t cause too much discomfort - but Princes hives were BIG. And all over his neck. About the size of between a 5p and 10p piece. I wish I had never ridden him that day, the problem with being inexperienced (but determined to learn more) is that sometimes you have to disagree with a processionals opinion but because you are inexperienced you let your gut feeling go. When I asked my YO if it would be ok to ride with hives they said YES, I wish I had listened to my inner voice (based on research) and decided not to 🙁


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## Ownedby4horses (23 July 2020)

I’ve had a horse who couldn’t have carrots, made him itch like crazy (not hives but just incredibly itchy all over and he was very disturbed by it).


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## Keira 8888 (23 July 2020)

Pearlsasinger said:



			I'm not sure, it could just be the amount of sugar but I don't think there is that much tbh.  Our Appaloosa mare that couldn't cope with carrots was the one we couldn't give alfalfa either - it really affected her very badly.  I also know a person who can't eat raw carrots because they 'burn' her throat.
		
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It’s so strange isn’t it. So much to think about and manage, how the hell do people deal with more than one horse 😩


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## Keira 8888 (23 July 2020)

Ownedby4horses said:



			I’ve had a horse who couldn’t have carrots, made him itch like crazy (not hives but just incredibly itchy all over and he was very disturbed by it).
		
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So this could have been the sugar content? It’s so confusing! An innocent old carrot hey. But yet, I strongly remember this affecting Prince. X


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## scats (23 July 2020)

Lovely update OP, Prince is a very lucky boy.
As for the year off, you might find that now you have made a decision to take a step back and take the pressure off, that in a few months you may feel ready to try again and see how you get on.


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## Pinkvboots (23 July 2020)

Keira 8888 said:



			Stupid question I’m sure - but how bad do we think hives could cause a horse to feel? I’ve done research and many docs say they don’t cause too much discomfort - but Princes hives were BIG. And all over his neck. About the size of between a 5p and 10p piece. I wish I had never ridden him that day, the problem with being inexperienced (but determined to learn more) is that sometimes you have to disagree with a processionals opinion but because you are inexperienced you let your gut feeling go. When I asked my YO if it would be ok to ride with hives they said YES, I wish I had listened to my inner voice (based on research) and decided not to 🙁
		
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I honestly don't know but if you consider a horse can feel a tiny fly on them so they are that sensitive, I would imagine hives can itch so you know yourself if you get a bite how uncomfortable it is and that's just one bite, hives can cover a large area and they were on his face and the skin there is ultra sensitive.

Last year my Arab the one I mentioned before had several insect bites under his jaw and he literally rubbed them raw until they bled, it was an absolute mess there took ages to heal all the hair came off, it must have been so irritating to have rubbed it like he did, I know he is really sensitive with things you put on his skin his allergic to lots of things so no 2 horses are the same so it's hard to tell how bad they feel with certain things.


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## DabDab (23 July 2020)

Aww, what a great update. I look forward to hear how you get on with him in future.

Feed reactions can be extreme in some cases. Not on the same level but my OH bought some 'junk food' type treats a couple of weeks ago and gave each of the horses some. The next morning I went for a plod round the block on Arts and instead went round like we were on a boxing day hunt. I was cantering sideways up the rode at 6am trying to work out what the hell had happened to my easy to hack horse. Fortunately the following morning she was back to normal. I backed her and so can say with complete certainty that she has never done that in her life before. My other two horses were completely normal 🤷‍♀️

It could be that if Prince is very reactive to common feeds, he has ended up where he was through unrecognised feed allergies causing extreme behaviour. Stranger things have happened. Will be interesting if you manage to find anything out about the mystery second chip.


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## Keira 8888 (23 July 2020)

scats said:



			Lovely update OP, Prince is a very lucky boy.
As for the year off, you might find that now you have made a decision to take a step back and take the pressure off, that in a few months you may feel ready to try again and see how you get on.
		
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I hope so Scats. Because my young ones will be back at school come September. And I will have all day, every day to be with him. It’s been so hard managing my daughters expectations while truly spending some quality time with him myself. It will be MUCH easier come September x


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## JDChaser (23 July 2020)

what is the theory behind the year off? Is he just going to be living out somewhere or are you still forking out for livery


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## Tihamandturkey (23 July 2020)

Keira I wish you all the luck in the world - you really deserve it 💓


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## Keira 8888 (23 July 2020)

JDChaser said:



			what is the theory behind the year off? Is he just going to be living out somewhere or are you still forking out for livery 

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I will be doing a diy grass livery. But luckily the new yard will be 60 secs walk from my home! So if I were going to be COMPLETELY honest, the theory is that he will have time off and in that time I will gain confidence and have more skills to deal with him! Not that he is a bad, fizzy horse. I’m just thrown in the deep end (my own doing) and learning fast!!


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## Lex2009 (23 July 2020)

Keira 8888 said:



			I will be doing a diy grass livery. But luckily the new yard will be 60 secs walk from my home! So if I were going to be COMPLETELY honest, the theory is that he will have time off and in that time I will gain confidence and have more skills to deal with him! Not that he is a bad, fizzy horse. I’m just thrown in the deep end (my own doing) and learning fast!!
		
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That’s a brilliant idea My first horse was very green . It took me a awhile to learn how to ride her properly.


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## splashgirl45 (23 July 2020)

a big well done kiera,  you have shown what a good person you are.  although i didnt say you should keep prince i am really pleased you decided to keep him.  in your shoes i couldnt have sent him back even thought it was the sensible thing to do.  its lovely that you have met the elderly man and hope you and your daughter can keep friends with him and ride the cob sometimes.. my old mare was very sensitive to some foods and i had to be very careful to only let her have 1 carrot a day which i hid her tablets in ...i think it is the fructose in carrots that affect them and combined with new grass she was lethal both to handle and to ride...good luck


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## Pearlsasinger (23 July 2020)

Keira 8888 said:



			Stupid question I’m sure - but how bad do we think hives could cause a horse to feel? I’ve done research and many docs say they don’t cause too much discomfort - but Princes hives were BIG. And all over his neck. About the size of between a 5p and 10p piece. I wish I had never ridden him that day, the problem with being inexperienced (but determined to learn more) is that sometimes you have to disagree with a processionals opinion but because you are inexperienced you let your gut feeling go. When I asked my YO if it would be ok to ride with hives they said YES, I wish I had listened to my inner voice (based on research) and decided not to 🙁
		
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I have some nettle stings on both wrists today (why do gloves and sleeves part at just the wrong moment?) and I can't bear the thought of having tight cuffs against them - I have rolled my sleeves up and they still driving me mad.  If someone took hold of my wrist, I would probably shake them off pretty quickly!


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## poiuytrewq (23 July 2020)

Tihama said:



			Keira I wish you all the luck in the world - you really deserve it 💓
		
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This in shed loads, your the owner every horse deserves 🥰


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## Winters100 (23 July 2020)

Actually I really believe that food can cause extreme reactions.  A couple of weeks ago some kids at the yard were feeding mine some treats that they had baked for the horses. I was not overly concerned as both horses are very sensible and the Mother assured me that they had followed a recipe for safe natural treats, but that day my saint of a mare was a complete hooligan.  Refused to stand at the mounting block, pulling, trying to race with others, some proper bucks - all of this is unheard of for her,  My reaction was to call the vet, but the pro stopped me and told me to give it a day.  The following day she was back to normal, I may have been mistaken but the only thing I could think of were these treats.  Not seen that behaviour before or since.  And all of this from a horse who I very often ride in fast canter with nothing more than a headcollar if I am short of time.


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## fredflop (23 July 2020)

Personally I would not be going straight to a bone scan... they will cost the best part of £2k, if not £3k.

if the owner has the money, he certainly think the vet checks I previously mentioned would be a good idea, if she decides to try and get him ridden again


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## paddy555 (23 July 2020)

you asked why alfa A drives some crazy. Don't know but some people with barefoot horses report it makes them foot sore yet alfalfa pellets don't so perhaps there is something about the drying process that introduces something into the equation and affects the horse. 

if you have a hive under an area of tack  it could easily provoke a reaction. Imagine a girth done up tight on a hive if the hive was painful.


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## ester (23 July 2020)

Keira 8888 said:



			Stupid question I’m sure - but how bad do we think hives could cause a horse to feel? I’ve done research and many docs say they don’t cause too much discomfort - but Princes hives were BIG. And all over his neck. About the size of between a 5p and 10p piece. I wish I had never ridden him that day, the problem with being inexperienced (but determined to learn more) is that sometimes you have to disagree with a processionals opinion but because you are inexperienced you let your gut feeling go. When I asked my YO if it would be ok to ride with hives they said YES, I wish I had listened to my inner voice (based on research) and decided not to 🙁
		
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having had unexplainable hives all over my legs I can confirm that they can make you pretty mad .


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## Crazy_cat_lady (24 July 2020)

I've followed the whole thread but haven't commented as felt unqualified to

Just wanted to say what a lovely owner you seem and Prince is extremely lucky and how lovely the elderly man is letting you both ride his cob and you're making him happy in return hopefully you can keep enjoying that.

Feel free to disregard my suggestion but I'd possibly give him just a month off at most now he's more comfortable after the hives, then get someone to show you long reining and do a bit of that. If he behaves really well doing that I'd get the pro in already to work on the riding as then at least you'll know earlier where you stand- if you get extreme rearing you know you've got something a bit more complex on your hands and need to look at more complex veterinary tests/ not getting on again but it MAY have been simply the hives and food setting him off and he will be back to chilled so you can enjoy riding him again provided you feel completely safe. I just wonder if leaving him for a year possibly leaves you waiting looking forward to something only to find there are bigger problems at least if he is behaving being long reined you can see what happens when ridden so you know a bit more whats likely to be the plan long term. 

Also interesting to see how many people have horses react to feed. My Welsh D is given carrot and apple in his am and pm feeds, with the occasional pear as he loves them, however he got swede peelings I think twice and both times turned even more "Welsh" and hysterical than normal. Nothing nasty but being dreadful to catch etc. He's been banned from having swede since, as its only twice he had it I couldn't say it definitely set him off due to being Welsh it could be anything but a potential correlation and not worth the aggro of giving it to him again to fully test!


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## ycbm (24 July 2020)

Whatever caused the hives could be causing problems anywhere else in the body too. It's not necessarily the hives themselves causing the issues, they may just be the only visible symptom.  

As for reaction to a carrot,  if there is an allergy,  it can be triggered by one piece of the protein that causes the reaction.  If a person can die from a tiny piece of nut, then a horse can be affected by a carrot.  

I wrote on your hives thread that I knew a horse which got hives if it was given any carrot.  
.


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## fusspot (24 July 2020)

fredflop said:



			Personally I would not be going straight to a bone scan... they will cost the best part of £2k, if not £3k.

if the owner has the money, he certainly think the vet checks I previously mentioned would be a good idea, if she decides to try and get him ridden again
		
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I am not sure where you are but a bone scan is by far the cheaper option here....the one we had done last year was £750 inc the 4 days at the vets.The vets themselves say it’s the better option when you have no indication of a problem area from the eye.It will take you to an area to investigate.X raying the spine and scoping will be more than that and you could still have no result....it could be the hocks Or hind leg suspensories.By working blind it will cost way more than even 5k.As I said...at least a bone scan could point you to an area to look at.I have known of at least 4 horses that have had a bone scan and it’s definetly the more cost effective way to go and this is at a big Veterinary Practice that have just about every machine under the sun.


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## southerncomfort (24 July 2020)

ester said:



			having had unexplainable hives all over my legs I can confirm that they can make you pretty mad .
		
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This.

I had allergic hives come up on my face after trying a new face cream.

They drove me absolutely demented!


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## Sam_J (24 July 2020)

I had hives once after an allergic reaction to some antibiotics.  Not only were they ferociously itchy, but my joints ached violently every time I moved - I've never known pain like it!


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## ILuvCowparsely (24 July 2020)

You say you had teeth done! is that by an EDT or vet, as this story and another where horse was pts  being dangerous and turned out to be teeth. Thought I posted this but apparently I did not click post  https://www.horseandhound.co.uk/new...-horse-due-put-treated-unqualified-edt-694817


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## tristar (24 July 2020)

i`ve had several horses get hives from rolling nettles, and extreme  behavior  from fly bites, anaphylatic sorry can`t spell that, shock like symptoms,called emergency vets who generally thought it was colic ,  but as soon as they were inside they recovered it was like a miracle, they were very distressed sometimes with hive like reaction sometimes not,  with thin skinned ones bringing in during the day is a big help, and  time of day it happens,  just a thought to remember with prince and see how he reacts to flies etc especially when you start doing something with him,  i use loads of fly spray to keep them calm 

but people react to food all the time  

and those fly rugs are a big help, we have the ones that have zebra stripes all with neck covers


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## Ownedby4horses (24 July 2020)

Keira 8888 said:



			So this could have been the sugar content? It’s so confusing! An innocent old carrot hey. But yet, I strongly remember this affecting Prince. X
		
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He was an ex racer, not sure if it was the sugar content or an allergy to carotine (i have no idea if such a thing exists?), the vet suggested stripping all feed and we did and reintroduced everything very slowly and it was clear it was the carrots.  He still, cant have them (new owner had told me she tried him a couple of times over the years shes owned him and they still make him incredibly itchy).


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## Dreamer2020 (24 July 2020)

Keira I just wanted to add my kind thoughts to some of the others on here.  You are doing your absolute best for Prince and if he could have picked anyone I'm sure he would have chosen you.  It is lovely that the elderly gentleman is letting your daughter ride his horse ... like you said, this will benefit all of you and has come at the right time.  I don't have any further advice, but just wanted to say thank you for your updates.  You are a kind lady with a big heart and the world needs more people like you xx


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## ponyparty (24 July 2020)

I have to agree that a year out of all work might not be the best thing for a horse his age; losing muscle condition and fitness can exacerbate some conditions.

I’d suggest - provided you’re fairly confident he’s free from pain - getting an experienced instructor who’s able to help you with groundwork. You can do lots of stuff on the ground to help keep him fairly fit and supple, so he doesn’t lose his core. (Not lots of lunging in gadgets - actual groundwork, raised poles in walk, maybe some long reining if he’s well behaved for this).

Up to you entirely of course - that’s just what I’d do in this situation, I think. Try and keep him ticking over and use this as an opportunity to get to know him, his way of going, and what makes him tick.

It’s a steep learning curve but you’ll get there  best of luck with him.


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## Equi (24 July 2020)

Maybe he just doesn’t like the yard. My horse would go batshit bananas at old yard in summer for a reason I couldn’t fathom making him quite a handful on the ground (happened when horses were in or out so wasn’t company related) but hasn’t had the behaviour once since moving to new yard and is the main reason I was afraid to move yards because I didn’t think anyone else would want to handle it. Someone from the old yard visited him and said what a miraculous change it’s made.

this doesn’t mean I think you or your daughter could just hop back on but it definitely could help his mental state for trying in the future.


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## Keira 8888 (26 July 2020)

equi said:



			Maybe he just doesn’t like the yard. My horse would go batshit bananas at old yard in summer for a reason I couldn’t fathom making him quite a handful on the ground (happened when horses were in or out so wasn’t company related) but hasn’t had the behaviour once since moving to new yard and is the main reason I was afraid to move yards because I didn’t think anyone else would want to handle it. Someone from the old yard visited him and said what a miraculous change it’s made.

this doesn’t mean I think you or your daughter could just hop back on but it definitely could help his mental state for trying in the future.
		
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I wonder why this happens? X


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## Keira 8888 (26 July 2020)

Thank you everyone so much for your replies - so sorry I haven’t replied to each one but I want you to know I am very grateful for everyone taking the time to help. You guys are the best. Never been much of a “forum” person but I have to say this particular forum is absolutely fantastic, Ive learnt so much. Everyone is so busy these days with “life” in general so to take the time out to advise/comfort/reassure a total stranger is a pretty amazing thing. Xxx


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## doodle (26 July 2020)

After I lost Minto I moved my other horse (along with my friends horse who he was in a field with and in new yard in a field with and a stable beside) to that yard. ( so going from a livery yard to a farm). Soli hated it. Lost 100kg, gave himself ulcers and cost 2.5k in vet fees trying to work what on earth was wrong. Diagnosis from vet was he didn’t like new yard. I moved him “home”, I had still been boxing back to use school, and he immediately sighed happily, settled back in and started putting weight back on. No idea what he didn’t like!


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## Keira 8888 (26 July 2020)

Kamikaze said:



			After I lost Minto I moved my other horse (along with my friends horse who he was in a field with and in new yard in a field with and a stable beside) to that yard. ( so going from a livery yard to a farm). Soli hated it. Lost 100kg, gave himself ulcers and cost 2.5k in vet fees trying to work what on earth was wrong. Diagnosis from vet was he didn’t like new yard. I moved him “home”, I had still been boxing back to use school, and he immediately sighed happily, settled back in and started putting weight back on. No idea what he didn’t like!
		
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This is so interesting... but makes sense I guess. Home is home after all.. but what makes a “home” to a horse?? Happy memories? Smells?? Routine?? X


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## doodle (26 July 2020)

It’s strange isn’t it. I had had him 4 1/2 years before moving him. He was an ex racer who had gone from racing to a new home then to me in 4 months. He possibly had ulcers when I got him. He was hard to get weight on but was a young ex racer and we got there slowly. I thought moving with his field buddy, me and his same routine he would be ok but after 4 months there called it quits. Even though he had to go into isolation he didn’t mind.


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## Caol Ila (26 July 2020)

Keira 8888 said:



			I wonder why this happens? X
		
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If I had an answer to that, I would be a millionaire. My horse has spent the last twenty years taking offense at yards for reasons known only to her. The closest I ever got to a diagnosis was my vet saying, "Well, the owner of that yard is pretty strange, and her husband is even weirder." When she takes a dislike to a place she fencewalks. And fencewalks. But when she likes a yard, she doesn't fencewalk. God knows what triggers that stereotypy.


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## fankino04 (27 July 2020)

My Welsh x took exception to 1 yard, no idea why, she was on DIY so no change in routine or handler, but from day 1 she was difficult, bargy, just wouldn't settle and she got worse every day, in the end leading her from the field or being in a stable with her became so difficult she stayed out all winter. When we moved to a new yard, she came off the box, into her stable and literally gave a big sigh and was good as gold in the new place. No idea why it happened...


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## Trouper (27 July 2020)

Horses just "know stuff".  They know what they need to eat and where they like (feel safe) to lay their heads - it's just we folk who have to do the hard work to get on the same wavelength with them.  I have learnt through, making mistakes, that it really is best to start simple in all areas and build up from there.  So the simplest feeds - I used Thunderbrooks plain chaff and their equally plain balancer (because I will always use a balancer) and then just as much grass/good quality hay as they need. I learnt the hard way that one of mine could happily munch soaked hay all day but a mouthful of haylage and watch out!!  In terms of work/exercise it was the same principle - start small and simple and work up - and only work up when you are happy that the previous stage is going well and is established.
Above all - enjoy the journey and don't be put off by setbacks.  It is a fascinating way to spend your days!!


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## zandp (27 July 2020)

One of mine can't eat alfalfa at all - the other one has hated some yards we've been on and is very clear about telling anyone who'll listen that she hates them !

ref the hives - the one of mine who used to get hives for no apparent reason was diagnosed with PPID.  Heat regulation - issues with it - is a side effect of PPID and that can cause some extreme behaviours.


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## LaurenBay (27 July 2020)

Mine was on 3 different yards. She hated one and was unrecognisable. I hated it too and instantly regretted moving there, wonder if she picked up on my feelings? but we moved off back to a previous yard and I swear I saw her breathe a sigh of relief when we unloaded her!


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## Keira 8888 (25 August 2020)

UPDATE!!!

Hi guys,

Hope you are all well.

Little update on Prince.

Things are going VERY well. A very very kind and knowledgable member of this forum (alwaysmoretoknow) has been helping me with him and we are going from strength to strength. Picking hooves out with ease, extracting him from a crowded field of horses with confidence, working with ground manners etc.. He is just a dream.

Today I finally heard back from leisure horse Ireland and they are cancelling his passport (that was issued recently based on the SECOND microchip number) They advised me to contact sports horse Ireland to get a duplicate passport and to see if I could find out anymore history about him.

Unfortunately- I had an email from sports horse Ireland today saying that because the original registration was for a non pedigree identity document they won’t be able to tell me any more about his history. Not quite sure what that means but I will go and research it. But disappointed as I thought the whole point of an animal being microchipped was to log history and ownership. Never mind. Onwards and upwards. He is an absolutely gent and I am so glad I made the decision to keep him xx


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## Laurac13 (25 August 2020)

Oh Kiera that is wonderful news I am so pleased he is doing well and you are both happy 😃  It’s shame the passport people aren’t able to give you more info tho that’s a bit frustrating but it sounds like you’ve both landed on your feet with the new place and the kind helper 😄 x


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## Gingerwitch (25 August 2020)

As long as he brings you pleasure that is all that counts x c


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## stormox (25 August 2020)

Keira 8888 said:



			UPDATE!!!

Hi guys,

Hope you are all well.

Little update on Prince.


Today I finally heard back from leisure horse Ireland and they are cancelling his passport (that was issued recently based on the SECOND microchip number) They advised me to contact sports horse Ireland to get a duplicate passport and to see if I could find out anymore history about him.

Unfortunately- I had an email from sports horse Ireland today saying that because the original registration was for a non pedigree identity document they won’t be able to tell me any more about his history. Not quite sure what that means but I will go and research it. But disappointed as I thought the whole point of an animal being microchipped was to log history and ownership. Never mind. Onwards and upwards. He is an absolutely gent and I am so glad I made the decision to keep him xx
		
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I think what they mean is white HSI passports are just identity documents. They have no breeder or horses pedigree on them, they are for identity purposes only. They usually show who the passport is issued to on them but data protection laws may prevent HSI from passing that info on although it should be recorded in the passport.
 The blue or green HSI passports have breeding, breeder etc and are DNA tested to ensure parentage.


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## splashgirl45 (25 August 2020)

lovely update and glad you are having help from someone on here.  prince is very lucky to have found you..


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## ester (25 August 2020)

Great update


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## Keira 8888 (25 August 2020)

Laurac13 said:



			Oh Kiera that is wonderful news I am so pleased he is doing well and you are both happy 😃  It’s shame the passport people aren’t able to give you more info tho that’s a bit frustrating but it sounds like you’ve both landed on your feet with the new place and the kind helper 😄 x
		
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Thank you so much Laura 💓💓💓


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## Keira 8888 (25 August 2020)

stormox said:



			I think what they mean is white HSI passports are just identity documents. They have no breeder or horses pedigree on them, they are for identity purposes only. They usually show who the passport is issued to on them but data protection laws may prevent HSI from passing that info on although it should be recorded in the passport.
The blue or green HSI passports have breeding, breeder etc and are DBA tested to ensure parentage.
		
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Ahh this is very interesting 🧐 Maybe once I get a duplicate I can try and trace any owner mentioned on there xx


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## Pippity (25 August 2020)

Keira 8888 said:



			Ahh this is very interesting 🧐 Maybe once I get a duplicate I can try and trace any owner mentioned on there xx
		
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Mine's a duplicate white HSI passport, and it has no information re previous owners. It's essentially a brand new passport, issued at the time she was imported.


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## TPO (25 August 2020)

Lovely update. Glad that you've found a good help/support network and are enjoying your time with Prince


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## Tihamandturkey (25 August 2020)

Delighted for you Keira and Prince 🥰


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## Dave's Mam (25 August 2020)

Lovely update.  Have you tried Trace My Horse UK group on Facebook?


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## Surbie (25 August 2020)

What a great update. Am so pleased for you and Prince.


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## misst (25 August 2020)

Fantastic news. I hope you and your daughter are finally enjoying yourselves the way you deserve. x


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## Winters100 (25 August 2020)

Great news!!


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## Crazy_cat_lady (25 August 2020)

Thats great news any chance of a photo of him?

Do you think you'll ever feel up to trying to ride him again?


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## Pearlsasinger (25 August 2020)

What a lovely update, thank you.


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## Trouper (26 August 2020)

Such great news.  I know how much I valued help with mine at the beginning and I hope you all go from strength to strength now.  Yes - some pictures would be great!!


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## Tarragon (26 August 2020)

I was very happy to read your latest update! And so pleased to hear that you have got some moral support and help from another experienced person from here. Onwards and upwards!


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## southerncomfort (26 August 2020)

Brilliant! Very happy for you and Prince. 🙂


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## Reacher (26 August 2020)

Very pleased for you and Prince. Like Dave’s mam said a FB group might be best way to trace his history  -  maybe an Irish one


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## cauda equina (26 August 2020)

An excellent outcome, and a reminder (if such a thing were needed) of the value of old cobs


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## Fjord (26 August 2020)

Great update!


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## babymare (26 August 2020)

A lovely update. All credit to you for looking for and accepting help. There really are some lovely people in the horse world aren't there? Enjoy your time with Prince x


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## Odyssey (26 August 2020)

I'm so pleased to hear that things are going well with Prince, and also that someone on here is helping you, that's so kind. Having their help sounds invaluable. 

Prince is such a lucky horse that you decided to keep him, and you have my full admiration for the way you've made the best of the situation for both your sakes. It's heartwarming that you love him so much, despite all the upset and stress you've gone through, and I hope he continues to bring you joy for a long time. I know that your daughter rides the old chaps cob, which is lovely. Are you able to ride him/her too, or is it too small?


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## dorsetladette (26 August 2020)

Lovely update - well done. Glad you have some support. As you say onwards and upwards!


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## Keira 8888 (26 August 2020)

Dave's Mam said:



			Lovely update.  Have you tried Trace My Horse UK group on Facebook?
		
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No I haven’t! Thanks for this suggestion! I will go and have a look 🤗


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## Keira 8888 (26 August 2020)

babymare said:



			A lovely update. All credit to you for looking for and accepting help. There really are some lovely people in the horse world aren't there? Enjoy your time with Prince x
		
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There really are - it’s actually been quite an eye opener into just how kind people can be. X 💓


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## Keira 8888 (26 August 2020)

Odyssey said:



			I'm so pleased to hear that things are going well with Prince, and also that someone on here is helping you, that's so kind. Having their help sounds invaluable.

Prince is such a lucky horse that you decided to keep him, and you have my full admiration for the way you've made the best of the situation for both your sakes. It's heartwarming that you love him so much, despite all the upset and stress you've gone through, and I hope he continues to bring you joy for a long time. I know that your daughter rides the old chaps cob, which is lovely. Are you able to ride him/her too, or is it too small?
		
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Sadly he is a little too small but I get my happiness from watching my daughter! Thank you so much for your lovely message xx


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## LegOn (26 August 2020)

Delighted for you! It's a lovely continuation of the story. 

Unfortunately with the passport, as others have said, it means the horse was microchipped (as per the law) but they were was no submission of a stallion cert or registration of his breeding to HSI.  You can get DNA testing done but only if know who the parents are or the stallion is at least, and then they can test against the database but they cannot do a 'matching' DNA if you get me.  And then it depends if the stallion was registered with HSI.  There might be an address of his breeder but the highest likelihood is the passport will be blank  

When I got my horse, his passport didnt have his breeding but there was a hand written note about the dam & sire, I submitted his DNA to HSI & he came up as a match to them both but then they wouldnt record the breeding unless they got a copy of the Stallion cert, which hadnt been submitted. I contacted his breeder & the stallion owner, who were both lovely & they sent it in for me & got his breeding recorded.   I learned that its in place to protect Stallion owners from non-payment, you cannot register the breeding without them giving you the cert, if you havent paid the bill then you dont get it! 

Well whatever about his past, he has a very lovely future to look forward to - he is a very lucky pony to have you as his human x


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## Keira 8888 (26 August 2020)

Thank you so much everyone for your lovely kind replies - its great to be able to keep you guys up to date on our journey and I appreciate everyone’s support so much. 

We had a pretty special day today. My incredible lady (I wish I knew how to tag her on her but her username is “alwaysmoretoknow”) came to train us and as you can see from the photo is was a very special day. My daughter is on cloud nine. I was very emotional. Without this incredible lady we wouldn't be where we are now. She has taught us so much. Always patient. Never makes me feel silly. She is a godsend. If you are reading this Angie - thank you 🙏


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## Keira 8888 (26 August 2020)

LegOn said:



			Delighted for you! It's a lovely continuation of the story.

Unfortunately with the passport, as others have said, it means the horse was microchipped (as per the law) but they were was no submission of a stallion cert or registration of his breeding to HSI.  You can get DNA testing done but only if know who the parents are or the stallion is at least, and then they can test against the database but they cannot do a 'matching' DNA if you get me.  And then it depends if the stallion was registered with HSI.  There might be an address of his breeder but the highest likelihood is the passport will be blank  

When I got my horse, his passport didnt have his breeding but there was a hand written note about the dam & sire, I submitted his DNA to HSI & he came up as a match to them both but then they wouldnt record the breeding unless they got a copy of the Stallion cert, which hadnt been submitted. I contacted his breeder & the stallion owner, who were both lovely & they sent it in for me & got his breeding recorded.   I learned that its in place to protect Stallion owners from non-payment, you cannot register the breeding without them giving you the cert, if you havent paid the bill then you dont get it!

Well whatever about his past, he has a very lovely future to look forward to - he is a very lucky pony to have you as his human x
		
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Thank you so much 😊 xxx


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## Keira 8888 (26 August 2020)

Here he is with his favourite mare in the herd 💓


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## Quigleyandme (26 August 2020)

Yay. So glad to hear this.


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## splashgirl45 (26 August 2020)

well done everyone, all looking hopeful for you ...he is a good looking boy


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## Dreamer2020 (26 August 2020)

What a lovely update Keira, thank you  I'm so happy for you, Prince & your daughter. Good on you for following your heart & sticking with him. He is a handsome lad isn't he & it's great that he has a lady friend too  Xx


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## Pippity (26 August 2020)

Keira 8888 said:



			Thank you so much everyone for your lovely kind replies - its great to be able to keep you guys up to date on our journey and I appreciate everyone’s support so much.

We had a pretty special day today. My incredible lady (I wish I knew how to tag her on her but her username is “alwaysmoretoknow”) came to train us and as you can see from the photo is was a very special day. My daughter is on cloud nine. I was very emotional. Without this incredible lady we wouldn't be where we are now. She has taught us so much. Always patient. Never makes me feel silly. She is a godsend. If you are reading this Angie - thank you 🙏
		
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What a wonderful photo, and what a fabulous outcome.


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## Gingerwitch (26 August 2020)

Keira 8888 said:



			Thank you so much everyone for your lovely kind replies - its great to be able to keep you guys up to date on our journey and I appreciate everyone’s support so much. 

We had a pretty special day today. My incredible lady (I wish I knew how to tag her on her but her username is “alwaysmoretoknow”) came to train us and as you can see from the photo is was a very special day. My daughter is on cloud nine. I was very emotional. Without this incredible lady we wouldn't be where we are now. She has taught us so much. Always patient. Never makes me fwoeeel silly. She is a godsend. If you are reading this Angie - thank you 🙏
		
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Wow, is that someone on Prince ?  X


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## doodle (26 August 2020)

I like that picture ❤️


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## brighteyes (26 August 2020)

Well, that took some reading! The OP took all the advice and comments very well, never losing patience nor becoming defensive in spite of the awful dilemma and shock she faced. This type of situation crops up all too often and is a dream-shattering, heartbreaking bank-emptying mess. Often the outcome is not pleasant and often enough to make the gloomy predictions, warnings and advice more than reasonable in such a situation. It's not good news for the horse, either. I wish I could find the post about the 'nice-horse-turned-nightmare', all because it failed to handle the upheaval of a move and the new situations. I find they all have a 'default setting' to which they revert whenever they are taken into a new situation like this one has. Also, it's dead easy to make a horse rear if it really doesn't (or does) want to do something and you try to force the opposite.

I would like to believe, despite the alarming evidence and rotten backstory, this is just a sensitive horse who has barely coped with the new circumstances, people, company and food and simply gone into its preferred self-preservation 'NO!' behaviour. Time, diet overhaul, experienced help and we could soon be reading a revised version of
*Never thought I’d be writing this  *

Been there done that, so it's entirely possible! 

Good luck OP and keep us updated. Take it slow and remember one bad day doesn't mean the future is a write off.


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## Keira 8888 (26 August 2020)

Gingerwitch said:



			Wow, is that someone on Prince ?  X
		
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My daughter!!!! He is so calm now he is a dream! All thanks to Angie on this forum who came to help me from the goodness of her heart xx


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## Keira 8888 (26 August 2020)

Dreamer2020 said:



			What a lovely update Keira, thank you  I'm so happy for you, Prince & your daughter. Good on you for following your heart & sticking with him. He is a handsome lad isn't he & it's great that he has a lady friend too  Xx
		
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Thank you so much xxxxx


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## Keira 8888 (26 August 2020)

splashgirl45 said:



			well done everyone, all looking hopeful for you ...he is a good looking boy
		
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Thank you very much. He is totally spoilt and I’m sure I’m doing all the wrong things when it comes to treats and general adoration 😂😂 but maybe this is fates plan to reward him for a life of hardship 🤷🏻‍♀️


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## dorsetladette (26 August 2020)

Oh amazing well done all of you x


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## southerncomfort (27 August 2020)

Fantastic picture. So glad things are going well, and sounds like you've made a lovely new friend too.


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## cauda equina (27 August 2020)

Sometimes all it takes to turn the wrong horse into the right horse is finding the right person to get you back on track


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## J&S (27 August 2020)

Having an experienced, kind and patient mentor will hopefully make your horse owning dreams come true.  Best wishes for the future.


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## Keira 8888 (27 November 2020)

Wowsers. I’ve just read this entire thread from start to finish as I wanted to remind myself of everything that has happened along the way with Prince.

So many replies, support, advice, encourage from this forum - looking back I can’t believe how so many of you offered endless help and a shoulder to cry on. Thank you so much. 

 I always hoped that I would be able to close off this thread with a happy ending and thanks to so many people I now can. 

I’ve been looking back over all my pictures and videos of Prince from the very moment he arrived (4 hours late and after midnight!! I was beginning to think he would never appear until I saw the lights of the truck come up the hill!) and the journey we have been on is just amazing.

I thought you might like to see some of the pics as it’s a nice way to close off this very emotional lengthy thread!! 

Sorry to post so many but each one means so much and helps me remember everything we eventually overcame. 

Thanks everyone for sticking with us!!! 💓


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## Keira 8888 (27 November 2020)

These were taken the day he arrived and the very next morning. I was completely besotted from the beginning even though he was so underweight - he was just perfect in my eyes 😊


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## Keira 8888 (27 November 2020)

The first time we rode him in the field before the problems began..


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## Keira 8888 (27 November 2020)

Our first few weeks of getting to know him and going through the bad times with the rearing 😞


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## Keira 8888 (27 November 2020)

At one point when I wasn’t sure if we would be able to keep him I resorted to giving Belle a “riding lesson” in the garden 😆


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## Keira 8888 (27 November 2020)

We then moved yard so he was just at the end of our road he seemed to really settle down 💓 We enjoyed being able to go and visit him all the time


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## Keira 8888 (27 November 2020)

With the help of the wonderful Angie (alwaysmoretoknow) we began to take him for walks, lunge him, long rein him and practise our groundwork... I made myself be brave and take him for walks on my own which didn’t go very well at first as he understandably didn’t like leaving the yard without company!


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## Keira 8888 (27 November 2020)

Things still weren’t right though so we had him scoped for ulcers and he was put on a course of gastro guard. Slightly terrifying experience as I wasn’t expecting him to bleed quite so much during the scope!


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## Keira 8888 (27 November 2020)

Following the gastro guard he started to perk up and our walks together became much easier!! We then discovered the huge “bean” and after that was removed he was like a new horse! We also found out he has cushings but with levels of only 69 we are confident we will control it from an early stage! What an exhausting medical journey!!


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## Keira 8888 (27 November 2020)

Finally came the day (last week) that I felt it was time to try and get back on board (after vet giving the all clear first) 

This was the moment just before I got on - I was terrified!!!!


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## Keira 8888 (27 November 2020)

And luckily it all went well! He is a happy, healthy, much loved horse who can walk past any traffic, dog, cyclist, pig or pony  - well done Prince! We love you SO much 💓

Thanks so much to everyone for seeing us through to our happy ending 🌟🌟🌟🌟


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## ponyparty (27 November 2020)

Cannot LOVE this enough! I'm thrilled to bits for you. I wish you a long and happy partnership; this has genuinely made me beam haha it's just wonderful news


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## Cutgrass (27 November 2020)

What a lovely journey!


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## TPO (27 November 2020)

Genuinely so pleased for you, no one deserves it more.

You had a lot to deal with; not only with Prince but the people on your yard and us on here. It must have been really difficult to wade through all of the conflicting opinions.

Wishing you both many more happy years together. He looks like a new horse!


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## dorsetladette (27 November 2020)

TPO said:



			Genuinely so pleased for you, no one deserves it more.

You had a lot to deal with; not only with Prince but the people on your yard and us on here. It must have been really difficult to wade through all of the conflicting opinions.

Wishing you both many more happy years together. He looks like a new horse!
		
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This!!! In buckets!

Well done for seeing it all through. Prince is a lucky lad for having you as his owner. 

Enjoy!!!


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## Annagain (27 November 2020)

I don't think I've ever come across anybody on here so ready to admit they were out of their depth, happy to listen to advice without getting defensive and to take things that may be difficult to hear without getting upset. You've had a lot of help but you've been so easy to help as you take it all so well. All you've ever done is want to improve yourself to help him. He's a credit to you and your perseverance. You should be proud of yourself as well as him. Well done.


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## Keira 8888 (27 November 2020)

ponyparty said:



			Cannot LOVE this enough! I'm thrilled to bits for you. I wish you a long and happy partnership; this has genuinely made me beam haha it's just wonderful news 

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Thank you so much! And for all your support and advice along the way xxx


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## Keira 8888 (27 November 2020)

annagain said:



			I don't think I've ever come across anybody on here so ready to admit they were out of their depth, happy to listen to advice without getting defensive and to take things that may be difficult to hear without getting upset. You've had a lot of help but you've been so easy to help as you take it all so well. All you've ever done is want to improve yourself to help him. He's a credit to you and your perseverance. You should be proud of yourself as well as him. Well done.
		
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Thanks so much Anna 💓


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## Keira 8888 (27 November 2020)

TPO said:



			Genuinely so pleased for you, no one deserves it more.

You had a lot to deal with; not only with Prince but the people on your yard and us on here. It must have been really difficult to wade through all of the conflicting opinions.

Wishing you both many more happy years together. He looks like a new horse!
		
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Thank you so much TPO - and for all your support too xxx


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## CanteringCarrot (27 November 2020)

This is the best update! Well done!

You took advice so well on here and were really committed to helping Prince. He is so fortunate to have a home with you. I wish you all the best!


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## MuddyTB (27 November 2020)

Wow, I have missed a few updates along the way but I always wondered what happened with you and Prince. 
This is fantastic, I'm so happy for you both. He was so lucky to find someone who would give him a chance and work through his issues.
Hope you have a fun, happy future together.


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## Ranyhyn (27 November 2020)

Wow what a journey.  Youve worked very hard, you deserve the happiness you now feel.  All the best x


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## paddy555 (27 November 2020)

amazing set of pics and such a lovely story. Well done you.  he is an absolute credit to you and your perseverance. Does your OH know you are now riding the beastie? 

don't forget Christmas is coming. It is usual to decorate horses  with tinsel etc for their Christmas ride. 
Looking forward to those pics


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## Welsh Dragon (27 November 2020)

This made my eye feel a little moist 🙈. I generally lurk as others give such brilliant advice, but have followed yours and Prince's journey. I am so pleased for you both, long may your happiness continue.x


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## splashgirl45 (27 November 2020)

such a lovely story and all credit to you for trying so hard for him and taking all of our posts so well.  i am thrilled for you and hope you have many years of fun with him.  you deserve to


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## SashaBabe (27 November 2020)

That is quite a journey you have both been on.  I hope you have many happy years together.


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## brighteyes (27 November 2020)

Probably needs a sticky as a reminder these animals can so easily be given up on, despite nothing too much being wrong. Oh to know their histories...

Well done and what a lucky, lucky horse. PPID might have also been impacting on behaviour,good vet spotting that!

Much luck and fun with him in the future.


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## meleeka (27 November 2020)

I’m so pleased to read this update.  Well done you!


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## rextherobber (27 November 2020)

Lovely update, and all credit to you for researching, asking questions and working so hard for this happy ending ( which is really just the beginning of lots of happy years together). Well done!


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## Amirah (27 November 2020)

I am so happy for you, Prince is gorgeous.


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## misst (27 November 2020)

Well all that determination certainly paid off. Your love for him shines through and the patience you have shown is amazing. So happy for you that your dreams came true - in the end x


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## Red-1 (27 November 2020)

Nooooooo .... Not because you are doing so well, that is a BIG YAY!!!!! It is more the idea that you are finishing this thread! I would love you to keep a periodic update. You have been an inspiration to many people, including very experienced people. 

Prince is very lucky, as are we for being able to share your journey.


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## kathantoinette (27 November 2020)

Just wow! What a journey 🤩


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## fabbydo (27 November 2020)

What a lovely owner you are! Well done.


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## Reacher (27 November 2020)

Well done Prince and well done you. You have had a lot to deal with as (I think?) a first time owner  and you have stepped up to the mark admirably. Wishing you both much happiness


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## Julie Ole Girl (27 November 2020)

Do feel for you, my first two horses I bought were a total dangerous .


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## Keira 8888 (27 November 2020)

I’m incredibly grateful for all your lovely lovely replies - honestly thank you so much. If it wasn’t for this forum and you guys I’m not sure if I would have had the strength to keep going.

 I’ve been thinking a lot about horse ownership lately and what I have learnt along this whole journey and I think it all comes down to this... (in my opinion) If you have lived and breathed horses since you were a little girl, if their smell and the excitement of just tacking up makes you come alive, if you find happiness in just filling their water bucket or sorting out the muck heap - you have enough passion to see you through the bad times.

I have dreamed about this moment since I was 6 years old. When I look at Prince grazing in his field I remember back to watching the black stallion, national velvet, Pharlap and many other iconic horse films and just aching to have my own horse one day.

The funny thing is that none of the films or books I used to devour as a child ever featured a perfectly behaved pony/horse. The thrill of the story was centred around capturing the journey of a problem horse with someone who REALLY loved it.

And by some pretty decent hand of fate, I got to experience that journey with Prince. 

It’s very humbling xxx


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## ycbm (27 November 2020)

Your fairy story is even more poignant because,  if I recollect correctly,  you have MS.

It's been fun for the forum to share your story.  I'm so pleased for you that you fought his corner because he is now looking like a very nice horse indeed.  And boy, do you deserve that! 
.


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## OldNag (27 November 2020)

K that is a lovely update. So pleased for you. Prince is a very lucky boy x


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## Keira 8888 (27 November 2020)

ycbm said:



			Your fairy story is even more poignant because,  if I recollect correctly,  you have MS.

It's been fun for the forum to share your story.  I'm so pleased for you that you fought his corner because he is now looking like a very nice horse indeed.  And boy, do you deserve that! 
.
		
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Oh yes, the wretched MS has reared its ugly head more than once during this journey. But the best thing is - it made me stronger! And more determined to keep going! This is why it means so so much to me - this time next year I may not be able to ride - I hope I will - but just in case, I HAD to push through my fear boundaries to make sure it would be ok for my daughter to ride him. And she has now been able to do that too! She and Prince will now go on to do great things and I will be cheering on from the side lines when I can’t ride any more. I am SO proud of Arabella - she has never given up, she chose to save Prince from an unknown fate when I explained to her that if we didn’t save him he could end up in terrible hands. She chose to keep him even if that meant she would never ride him. 

And fate has been kind to all three of us - we are riding and exploring and Arabella has learned what it truly means to take responsibility for an animal.

2020 has been a truly awful year for so many of us. But luckily here, it was the year that gave us Prince. 💓


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## Keira 8888 (27 November 2020)

And here she is! My mighty girl who saved her horse 💓 at 9 years old


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## Rumtytum (27 November 2020)

Keira your last post has brought a big tear to my eye, you are such a wonderful and courageous person. Wishing you, Arabella and of course the very gorgeous Prince many, many years of fun, love and happiness together.


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## Keira 8888 (27 November 2020)

Rumtytum said:



			Keira your last post has brought a big tear to my eye, you are such a wonderful and courageous person. Wishing you, Arabella and of course the very gorgeous Prince many, many years of fun, love and happiness together.
		
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Thank you 🙏 In fact your reply has brought a tear to my eye! I never thought we would get here, it’s a dream. Thank you so much for supporting us x x


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## Keira 8888 (27 November 2020)

The last thing I want to say (sorry everyone!!) is that a lady called Angela Clarke (alwaysmoretoknow) literally saved us.

She didn’t know us. She read our story on this forum. She messaged me on the forum to ask if she could help. She drove countless miles to visit a complete stranger and her problem horse.

She then supported me through some very dark times. She gave me the strength to believe in myself AND to believe in Prince.

Angie - bottoms up to you tonight - we made it, you got us moving when I was too scared to do anything - you are an incredible soul.

You saved not only Prince but also me, as I needed to achieve something. Love you lots xx


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## Dave's Mam (27 November 2020)

What a wonderful update!  Loved reading that.


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## SatansLittleHelper (28 November 2020)

Fantastic update. So very pleased for you that your patience and determination has paid off. You really deserve all of the happiness in the world with Prince. I hope he knows he is just the luckiest boy to have found you 💙


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## scats (28 November 2020)

You come across as such a lovely person and your determination to do the best for Prince is admirable.  He’s a lucky, lucky boy.  It’s lovely to have you on the forum xx


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## Trouper (28 November 2020)

Oh goodness me - not a dry eye in the house!!!  I hope some of the folk who post on the _New Riders and Owners_ Forum here read this story and take inspiration from you and remember that every horse is worth giving that chance to.  We're all on a learning journey with our horses - no matter how long ago it started - but it has been quite humbling to read yours and how you have dealt with everything that has happened.   If Prince is not a happy horse now I don't know of anyone who could make him happier.
Start a new thread for updates about him and your daughter's journey with him please?!!


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## Woodsy94 (30 November 2020)

This so needs a “love” button ❤️❤️❤️❤️ Well done for sticking at it.. and believing in him and yourself. You should be so proud. Xx


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## LaurenBay (30 November 2020)

Wonderful update xxx


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## Keira 8888 (1 December 2020)

Trouper said:



			Oh goodness me - not a dry eye in the house!!!  I hope some of the folk who post on the _New Riders and Owners_ Forum here read this story and take inspiration from you and remember that every horse is worth giving that chance to.  We're all on a learning journey with our horses - no matter how long ago it started - but it has been quite humbling to read yours and how you have dealt with everything that has happened.   If Prince is not a happy horse now I don't know of anyone who could make him happier.
Start a new thread for updates about him and your daughter's journey with him please?!!
		
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Ahh that’s so kind 😊 Thank you very much  indeed xx


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## Keira 8888 (1 December 2020)

scats said:



			You come across as such a lovely person and your determination to do the best for Prince is admirable.  He’s a lucky, lucky boy.  It’s lovely to have you on the forum xx
		
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Thank you so much Scats. X


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## Keira 8888 (1 December 2020)

SatansLittleHelper said:



			Fantastic update. So very pleased for you that your patience and determination has paid off. You really deserve all of the happiness in the world with Prince. I hope he knows he is just the luckiest boy to have found you 💙
		
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Thank you 🙏 It’s so lovely to be able to share it with you guys. Means so much xx


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## Tihamandturkey (4 December 2020)

Delighted for both you and Prince - wishing you a happy journey together 💕


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