# Facebook     STOP the sale of horse meat for human consumption in WA!



## concernedaussie (12 July 2010)

Please help, all horse lovers in UK.

New Legislation in Western Australia, effective July 1st 2010

Western Australia is allowing horses to be slaughtered using the Penetrating Capitive Bolt for human consumption, so Vince Gareffa of Mono di Carne can feed horsemeat to Australians on Bastille Day.

We need help with this situation which allowed 3 healthy 3 year old thoroughbreds to be killed last Friday using this method.  The horse can still be conscious while slaughtered by this method which is used on cattle.

Horses necks are longer of course and the bolt does not penetrate efficiently to kill and the horse is slaughtered alive. This is banned in USA

Please read facebook  STOP the sale of horse meat for human consumption in WA!

Please help if you can.  Thank you


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## Alec Swan (12 July 2010)

concernedaussie,

whilst you are entitled to your views regarding the ethics of horses being slaughtered for human consumption,  I would suggest that your emotive claims,  many of which are totally incorrect,  in their entirety,  are doing little to promote your cause.

Accepting that the slaughter-man is experienced and competent,  then a captive bolt pistol renders the subject unconscious,  and before it falls to the ground.  Correctly administered,  no animal will ever regain any sense of awareness.  If animals are to be used for human consumption,  then the heart needs to still be working,  whilst they are bled out.

The length of a horses neck has absolutely nothing to do with the effectiveness of slaughter.

The banning of the horse slaughter trade in the USA is more to do with the way that they are handled,  contained and generally dealt with whilst the are still living.  Whether a free bullet,  or a captive bolt are used,  is immaterial to the horse.  The suffering is far more likely to occur in the transport and handling of horses.

The world,  or so it seems to me,  is filled with unwanted and miserable horses.  Tell me,  how would you propose that these poor creatures are to be dealt with?  More sanctuaries?  Not for me,  I'm afraid.  

Alec.


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## Amymay (12 July 2010)

Beautiful response Alec.


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## concernedaussie (12 July 2010)

The information I refered to was sourced from Dr Lester Freilander DVM and former USDA Inspector.

www.mainsandtailsorganization.org 

Report

USE OF PENETRATING CAPTIVE BOLT AS A MEANS OF RENDERING EQUINES INSENSIBLE FOR SLAUGHTER VIOLATES THE HUMANE SLAUGHTER ACT OF 1958

Where he refers to the fact the horses are aware of being slaughtered while still alive.  Due to the PCB being developed for bovines and not equines.

Anyway, didn't mean to upset anyone.
My solution to the problem would be to restrict unregulated breeding hear in WA.


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## Over2You (12 July 2010)

concernedaussie said:



			Please help, all horse lovers in UK.

New Legislation in Western Australia, effective July 1st 2010

Western Australia is allowing horses to be slaughtered using the Penetrating Capitive Bolt for human consumption, so Vince Gareffa of Mono di Carne can feed horsemeat to Australians on Bastille Day.

We need help with this situation which allowed 3 healthy 3 year old thoroughbreds to be killed last Friday using this method.  The horse can still be conscious while slaughtered by this method which is used on cattle.

Horses necks are longer of course and the bolt does not penetrate efficiently to kill and the horse is slaughtered alive. This is banned in USA

Please read facebook  STOP the sale of horse meat for human consumption in WA!

Please help if you can.  Thank you
		
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Please provide a link and I'll sign the petition or whatever it is that is on Facebook. Eating horses and killing them in such a way insults every fibre of my being. I always thought better of Australia, especially when the RSPCA took ITV to court over the killing of a rat. There is no need to celebrate Bastille day in such a manner anyway. Surely a glass of French wine and a selection of French cheeses would be sufficient enough. That would satisfy me.


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## concernedaussie (12 July 2010)

Thank you

The petition is at   Stop the sale of horse meat for consumption in Western Australia/Change.org 

So best to link into www.Change.org for the petition I believe.

The other concerns are the horses the gentleman claims he intends to sell for human consumption came from the knackery (like Jamie Greys). The horses were thoroughbreds and were bred for the track, so probably had been administered with bute or other carcinogens and toxins dangerous to humans.  So the whole story has taken on a human health issue.


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## Over2You (12 July 2010)

Petition is signed. Here is the link: http://animals.change.org/petitions...at_for_human_consumption_in_western_australia


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## EAST KENT (12 July 2010)

Over2You ,and all of you..if you think Oz is like us in animal welfare..just google " Mulesing in Sheep".If you dare that is.Then of course there are the gi-normous Sheep-Ships,that sale with many tiers high of sheep straight off the outback  on their way to ritual slaughter in Arab countries.Those that die on the journey are simply slung overboard to the sharks that follow the sheepships. Oz has a totally different outlook on animal welfare and rights..it`s a tough country with a tough outlook on life.


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## Alec Swan (13 July 2010)

aus,

you certainly haven't upset anyone,  well not me anyway!  I have viewed your "mainsandtails'  thingy,  but can't find any reference to a Dr. Freilander,  or his report.  I would very much like to read it.  Could you either post it on here,  or let me have it by PM?

Many thanks.

Alec.


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## Over2You (13 July 2010)

a1b2c3 said:



			aus,

you certainly haven't upset anyone,  well not me anyway!  I have viewed your "mainsandtails'  thingy,  but can't find any reference to a Dr. Freilander,  or his report.  I would very much like to read it.  Could you either post it on here,  or let me have it by PM?

Many thanks.

Alec.
		
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I found the link using Google. Here it is: http://www.manesandtailsorganization.org/captive_bolt.htm


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## Groom42 (13 July 2010)

With respect........why on earth should people in WA be told they cannot eat horsemeat? If there is a market for it, it means there are customers. It's not something I would consciously choose to eat, but I also don't choose to eat offal. I wouldn't dream of telling offal-lovers they mustn't eat it! As far as I am concerned, the issue is not the consumption  of the horsemeat, more the humane and efficient slaughter of the animal (any breed, bovine/equine whatever). My limited understanding is that since horse slaughter has been banned in the USA, animals are now enduring horrific journeys south to Mexico, and north to Canada, where it is still legal. This would appear to condemn American horses to far more abuse/stress than if they had been slaughtered on US soil, and therefore rather defeating the object of the ban, which I presume was on grounds of horse welfare? I have no objection to people choosing to eat any meat of their choice, as long as it it transported on the hook, not the hoof. With modern transport and refrigeration there is no need for anything else. IMHO.


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## Alec Swan (13 July 2010)

Over2You,

your abilities with a computer are obviously better than mine!  I accept that the slaughter of horses is a highly emotive subject,  and whether this is the right place for such a discussion is for others to decide.

I have never heard of Freilander,  with,  or without his doctorate.  His report is wrong,  biased and misleading.  Electroencephalography (EEG) and Electrocardiography (ECG),  have both been disproved as a method of testing the state of awareness in a living creature.  I would be interested to hear who it was who funded his research.

The facts are fairly simple,  and to deal with the CB pistol, first.  Once a rod of app 3/8" diameter is driven into the brain,  then conscious life is extinct.  To suggest that a horse is conscious whilst it is being butchered is ridiculous.  The handling of such an animal would be extremely dangerous for the operator.  Whilst you may be surprised by this,  I would assure you that every competent slaughter-man who I've ever met,  has taken a real pride in his work,  and has abided by "The slaughter-mans creed".  Look it up on google.  Those who I have met within the UK,  who do this work,  take on a degree of humane responsibility which would probably surprise you.

The skull of an equine is actually very thin,  and not as the researcher has suggested,  thicker than that of a bovine.  The .22 RF is an entirely suitable tool with which to euthanase an equine,  and those who would argue otherwise,  are speaking from a viewpoint of complete ignorance.  

Cattle are held in what is known as a shooting box,  whilst they are shot.  Horses are stood in what is euphemistically called a "hall".  It is,  in reality a room.  They are led in individually,  dealt with,  the room is washed down,  and the next is brought in.  To attempt to shoot a panicking horse would be two things,  inhumane  and extremely dangerous for the operator,  and that's something which no competent slaughter-man would countenance.

I'm not too sure whether i've explained myself properly,  I've tried,  but what i will assure you of is this:  Freidlander is arguing from a point of ignorance.  Trust me on this one,  his whole argument is riddled with a degree of inaccuracy,  which he will find embarrassing,  when he actually gains a degree of experience.

Freidlander may well have a doctorate,  but his report was rubbish,  nothing more or less.

I'm sorry to disappoint you.

Alec.


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## Onyxia (13 July 2010)

Over2You said:



			Please provide a link and I'll sign the petition or whatever it is that is on Facebook. Eating horses and killing them in such a way insults every fibre of my being. I always thought better of Australia, especially when the RSPCA took ITV to court over the killing of a rat. There is no need to celebrate Bastille day in such a manner anyway. Surely a glass of French wine and a selection of French cheeses would be sufficient enough. That would satisfy me.
		
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I am sorry if this causes any offence,but I can't understand why eatign horses is any different to eating any other animal.
It might not be "nice" to those of us who consider them pets and sporting partners,but in other parts of the world they _are_ also a food source and as long as they are killed as humanely as possable I have no issue with it.


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## Over2You (13 July 2010)

Alec (and every other pro-slaughter member here),

Just what possesses you to be on a forum which is meant for people with a love of horses. If your horse (if you have one) were to need a way out of life, then would you be perfectly happy with him/her going to the slaughterhouse? 

Also, just how do we know for 100% fact that an animal doesn't feel pain as it is being slaughtered? Has anyone asked them or is it just something we humans say to make us feel better about being meat-eaters?  

Nobody can say what it is like to die since it something that can NOT be gaged in any manner!


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## Onyxia (13 July 2010)

The bolt has been used for many years.As far as we can tell it does the job well and is still the method of choice for many owners having their beloved friends PTS.

Is your issue with the method or the consumption of horse meat?


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## rhino (13 July 2010)

Yes the people on this forum love horses, and would never wish to see one suffer.

A humane death is NOT the worst thing that can happen to a horse. Suffering during it's lifetime is so very much worse

If an animal is killed then does it really matter what happens to it, if it is buried, cremated, eaten...?

I would rather see a healthy horse killed for human consumption than join the ranks of neglected or abused horses in the world. 

Do you have a similar problem with cows or other livestock being slaughtered using similar methods, and subsequently eaten?


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## cptrayes (13 July 2010)

Sorry, I won't be signing. There's no difference between eating a horse and eating a cow. I couldn't eat one I'd looked after, but I'd happily eat horse.

I've also seen three slaughtered with a captive bolt, two of them my own,  and the horse was completely unconscious immediately and there is no way at all that they knew anything about what happened after the bolt punched a hole in their head. It's a routine way of slaughtering horses at abattoirs in the UK and no-one has higher welfare standards than we do in this country.


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## WishfulThinker (13 July 2010)

anima said:



			I am sorry if this causes any offence,but I can't understand why eatign horses is any different to eating any other animal.
It might not be "nice" to those of us who consider them pets and sporting partners,but in other parts of the world they _are_ also a food source and as long as they are killed as humanely as possable I have no issue with it.
		
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My thought to.  I dont think that we would care so much if we had been doing it for thousands of years along side riding them.  Horses were originally prey before we decided to ride them. 
I like cows, But I still eat them.  I hate sheep.......that is why I eat them.


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## cptrayes (13 July 2010)

Over2You said:



			Alec (and every other pro-slaughter member here),

 If your horse (if you have one) were to need a way out of life, then would you be perfectly happy with him/her going to the slaughterhouse?
		
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No, if I was having a horse slaughtered it would be old or injured and in that case I would not put it through the journey. I would, as I have and will do again, get them shot at home in surroundings where they were once healthy and happy. Once they are dead I couldn't care less if I buy part of their carcass in my next tin of cat food and my cats eat it. 

You probably think you are being more humane if you plan to have your horse injected, but as many people who have been through a general anaesthetic can tell you, the feeling of loss of control as the drug takes over can be extremely frightening to a human who knows what is happening. I wouldn't put a horse through it when a gun, with a free bullet or a captive bolt, is instant.

The slaughtermen who I have dealt with have been complete experts who pride themselves in a clean quick kill. My last horse went blind at 4 and he often panicked so badly he fell to his knees. He began to panic as I went to hand him over, the slaughterman sensed it immediately, and I found myself flat on the grass as the gunman pushed me quickly out of the way so as to shoot him before he could realise what was happening. 

I'd like someone to finish me off as easily when my time comes!


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## Donkeymad (13 July 2010)

Completely with cptrayes. Two of mine were destroyed by captive bolt and both were unconscious and dead within seconds. (They were both ill and no recovery possible).I too would eat horse meat, just not my own.
Once an animal is dead, it is dead, be it horse, goat, cow etc.


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## Gingerwitch (13 July 2010)

Sorry - i hate the thought of a magical horse being slaughtered by captive bolt full stop BUT i would rather them go by captive bolt than have the cowdly route of the USA where they transport the poor animals thousands of miles to have their spinal cords severed.

NOW THAT IS SOMETHING TOO PROTEST AGAINST - BARBARIC METHOD !


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## Megan_T (13 July 2010)

Over2You said:



			Alec (and every other pro-slaughter member here),

Just what possesses you to be on a forum which is meant for people with a love of horses. If your horse (if you have one) were to need a way out of life, then would you be perfectly happy with him/her going to the slaughterhouse? 

Also, just how do we know for 100% fact that an animal doesn't feel pain as it is being slaughtered? Has anyone asked them or is it just something we humans say to make us feel better about being meat-eaters?  

Nobody can say what it is like to die since it something that can NOT be gaged in any manner!
		
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Comments like this infuriate me.

Alec's responses have been accurate, well constructed and not in the slightest bit argumentative or degrading.

Just because people have pointed out facts and figures (all very well grounded having done my research) does not mean that they do not love or care for horses. 

I won't be signing the petition as I'd feel like a total hypocrite. I eat meat, full stop.

I choose NOT to eat horse meat, but I do not judge nor chastise anyone who DOES choose to. It is not my place to tell them what is right or wrong.

None of us want to see any horse suffer, ever. Which is why I support the WHW campaign to stop the live transport of horses in such horrible conditions. What happens to them at the other end of that journey is not where the suffering starts, it is where it ends.


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## Sarah Sum1 (13 July 2010)

What about the poor cows  Nobody cares about them


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## stencilface (13 July 2010)

They want to legalise (or have done?) the consumption of horse meat for just one day of celebration?

Thats madness surely?!  That kind of slaughter is surely something most australians would be appalled at if it was an ethnic minority that wanted to slaughter say dogs to celebrate one of their days (purely hypothetical - I'm not suggesting any minority wants to slaughter dogs!).

I think eating horse is wrong, yes I know meat is meat (well, it might to to the carnivores amongst us) but the difference is the relationship horses have with man, and the debt man owes them.

In my mind australians should be eating kangaroo and camel, and any other padded foot animal as sheep, cows and cloven hooved animals have and continue to destroy the land and create huge barren areas of dust. Just imho 

(although I'm well aware that kangaroo is mainly seen as dog food in WA)


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## henryhorn (13 July 2010)

I couldn't find the link either but I did read about this research a couple of years ago and stopped using that method as a result. 
At least with an injection they are well out of it before the fatal does gets administered, but of course if for human consumption that method can't be used.
I don't actually have a problem with people eating horse meat (I couldn't myself) but the manner the horses are handled prior to slaughter concerns me far more.
Far better to perhaps be semi aware they were dying than travel for many miles hungry and thirsty en route.


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## YorksG (13 July 2010)

I am a little confused by the OP saying that the animal is alive before it is slaughtered, aren't they all?
As someone who eats meat, then I have no problem with an animal being humanely slaughtered. I have seen horses killed (at home as a result of injury, illness or old age) by both the captive bolt and free bullet. On all occasions it has been quick and efficient and will always be my choice, for my animals.
I will not be signing the petition.


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## SusannaF (14 July 2010)

There was a thread here a couple of weeks ago about peoples' experiences of having horses PTS by different methods.
As far as I could tell, the most consistently humane, error-free procedures were (1) having the horse killed by the knackerman, at home, with a captive bolt and (2) having the horse shot at home by the huntsman. Not everyone had a good experience of injections  it was apparently hard for vets to calculate the right amount, and horses often survived it.


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## Katikins (14 July 2010)

Over2You said:



			Alec (and every other pro-slaughter member here),

Just what possesses you to be on a forum which is meant for people with a love of horses. If your horse (if you have one) were to need a way out of life, then would you be perfectly happy with him/her going to the slaughterhouse?
		
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OK, so because I want my horse/s shot and given to the hunt when its their time then that means I don't love it?  I would also not have a problem with them going to the slaughterhouse though admit I'd rather have them die at home but that's more because of me rather than the horse.

I have HUGE issues with the fact that the US banned horse slaughter as there will ALWAYS be a need for it, end of.  I would much rather horses were slaughtered close to home with a little stress as possible and in a country with good standards/preocedures, than loaded onto double deckers bound for countries thousands of miles away under horrific conditions.  And then when they do get there there are nowhere near the same kind of standards as we have in this country.  Once again the animal rights lot have actually made conditions WORSE not better through their ignorance!


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## Silverspring (14 July 2010)

Nom...nom...nom I love a bit of home grown horse meat.  So long as the horse's are being bred, raised and shot in Australia I'm all for it, I'll have mine rare thank you very much


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## Cavblacks (14 July 2010)

SusannaF said:



			There was a thread here a couple of weeks ago about peoples' experiences of having horses PTS by different methods.
As far as I could tell, the most consistently humane, error-free procedures were (1) having the horse killed by the knackerman, at home, with a captive bolt and (2) having the horse shot at home by the huntsman. Not everyone had a good experience of injections  it was apparently hard for vets to calculate the right amount, and horses often survived it.
		
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Sadly a horse I know if had to be PTS last week due to a broken leg. The first injection didnt work so it had to have a second. Would have been much quicker and fairer to have shot it by someone skilled IMO.

Sorry havent read the whole thread so havent commented on the meat issue just wanted to add my experience of this.


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## Cavblacks (14 July 2010)

Megan_T said:



			Comments like this infuriate me.

Alec's responses have been accurate, well constructed and not in the slightest bit argumentative or degrading.

Just because people have pointed out facts and figures (all very well grounded having done my research) does not mean that they do not love or care for horses. 

I won't be signing the petition as I'd feel like a total hypocrite. I eat meat, full stop.

I choose NOT to eat horse meat, but I do not judge nor chastise anyone who DOES choose to. It is not my place to tell them what is right or wrong.

None of us want to see any horse suffer, ever. Which is why I support the WHW campaign to stop the live transport of horses in such horrible conditions. What happens to them at the other end of that journey is not where the suffering starts, it is where it ends.
		
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Have now caught up on the thread...

I agree with this. I eat meat, i choose not to eat horse meat as I see them as a pet and an animal I love. I like cows but they're not my pet and they're bred for a purpose.

As long as the kill is humane and instant I would prefer a horse to go down this route rather than lead a sad neglected life. I accept some people choose to eat horse, it just doesn't quite sit right me me and thats my opinion.

I also support the WHW campaign to stop the live transportation of these horses.


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## Fairynuff (14 July 2010)

do NOT watch if you are easily upset!
A clean and humane kill. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eamy6PDeZdw


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## Alec Swan (14 July 2010)

Katikins said:



			OK, so because I want my horse/s shot and given to the hunt when its their time then that means I don't love it?  I would also not have a problem with them going to the slaughterhouse though admit I'd rather have them die at home but that's more because of me rather than the horse.

I have HUGE issues with the fact that the US banned horse slaughter as there will ALWAYS be a need for it, end of.  I would much rather horses were slaughtered close to home with a little stress as possible and in a country with good standards/preocedures, than loaded onto double deckers bound for countries thousands of miles away under horrific conditions.  And then when they do get there there are nowhere near the same kind of standards as we have in this country.  Once again the animal rights lot have actually made conditions WORSE not better through their ignorance!
		
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O2Y and Aus too,

I would hope that you will consider the words which have been posted in the quote above.  The second paragraph,  and specifically the last sentence,  sum up the problem perfectly.

To answer your enquiry,  as to if I keep horses,  then yes,  I do.  They are the fuel that drives my life.  

Consider the charitable(?) bodies in America.  Because the slaughter of horses,  for human consumption,  appears to have been banned,  these poor creatures are now travelled for many hundreds of miles,  and over borders where the slaughter conditions are,  at best barbaric.  

Answer me this,  do you actually think that those bodies which have campaigned for equine welfare have achieved anything,  other than making matters worse?  

Alec.


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## Sarah Sum1 (14 July 2010)

Fairynuff said:



			do NOT watch if you are easily upset!
A clean and humane kill. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eamy6PDeZdw

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 Oh bless it whinnying, very sad, looked like a sweet little pony.
But agree that it looked a quick way to go.

I don't like how they kill the cows personally, sliiting there throats and they are left to stumble around, must be so painful.


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## Amymay (14 July 2010)

I don't like how they kill the cows personally, sliiting there throats and they are left to stumble around, must be so painful.
		
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I've never seen cows killed like this in the uk.......  Unless Halal


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## Sarah Sum1 (14 July 2010)

amymay said:



			I've never seen cows killed like this in the uk.......  Unless Halal

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Oh I do apologise  I think it must have been foreign videos then. You know the ones where they go in a barrel kind of machine, slit there throats and then it goes upside down and tips them out. Are the ones here shot then? I should learn more about it really, just find it upsetting. But yes, sorry prob got that wrong then 

Yep think it was in the USA? maybe?


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## Amymay (14 July 2010)

They are stunned with a bolt first, then bled out.


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## Sarah Sum1 (14 July 2010)

amymay said:



			They are stunned with a bolt first, then bled out.
		
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I see, still don't like it. Have seen progs where stuns don't always work. But I guess thats the worst of the worst if you know what I mean. Prob does stun in the majority of cases.


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## Serenity087 (14 July 2010)

Oh great, lets all bitch and moan about WA, mulesing and the arab sheep trade...

Anyone here ACTUALLY spent a week mulesing, other than me?  Or just read up on the rubbish that they post on the interwebs about it... because what I read and what I did were two different things.

I will never sign a petition against slaughter of horses.  But especially not in WA.

There are much more important issues with human welfare to resolve before you start trying to save all the horses!

And, tbh, I don't see anything wrong with feeding contaminated meat to the french... or maybe that's just me?? (jokes, btw!!!)


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## Over2You (14 July 2010)

I happen to think that any of you who have replied saying you'll eat horse, but not your own are hypocrites. Reminds me of the thread about the BBC's horse herder documentary. There were cries of how humane the kill was (when they botched killing the horse for the first time and the totally panicked mare broke free only to die of strangulation followed by head trauma followed by stabbing). If it was such a great way of killing a horse, then they should ask their vet to do the same to their animals. I also think those of you saying slaughter is the best option for the horse instead of keeping it alive are selfish beyond reason. You seem to think that no one could possibly give an equine a loving forever home. There are plenty of people who give horses (who would otherwise have been slaughtered) a new lease of life. Myself included! Guy would have been dead long ago if the racing industry had got its way. He is perfectly healthy and happy. If it had been up to most of you lot, he'd have met the same fate as that poor grey pony.    

BTW, I am vegetarian and NEVER eat the flesh of ANY animal!! The whole "humane" slaughter makes me sick to my stomach. As does eating a sentient being.


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## rhino (14 July 2010)

Unfortunately Over2You, not all owners are like you. There are a lot of neglected and abused horses out there. No-one here will have a horse or pony pts unnecessarily, it is not a decision anyone will take lightly. 

If people would eat horsemeat, but not that of their own horse, that's fine by me. It's their choice.

If you do not eat any meat, that's fine too. That's your choice. It happens to be my choice too.


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## EAST KENT (14 July 2010)

What is done to sheep in Oz is unacceptable...and yes I`ve been their too,the whole business is gross;as for those ghastly sheep ships..that ok..strewth give me strength!Were  you perhaps just crutching??


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## Megan_T (14 July 2010)

Over2You said:



			... If it had been up to most of you lot, he'd have met the same fate as that poor grey pony.    

BTW, I am vegetarian and NEVER eat the flesh of ANY animal!! The whole "humane" slaughter makes me sick to my stomach. As does eating a sentient being.
		
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Yes, that's right - we'd all happily see healthy horses put down for no apparent reason. You're totally correct.

Get a grip.

Furthermore, no-one here is taking offence to you being a vegetarian, so perhaps you should show the same respect to the carnivores amongst us, eh?


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## CorvusCorax (14 July 2010)

Look, let's get it over and done with, if we don't agree with or live our lives in the same way as Over2You, we are wrong. Amen.


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## Serenity087 (14 July 2010)

EAST KENT said:



			What is done to sheep in Oz is unacceptable...and yes I`ve been their too,the whole business is gross;as for those ghastly sheep ships..that ok..strewth give me strength!Were  you perhaps just crutching??
		
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No, I was mulesing.  I know damn well what I was doing, thank you very much!

After a few months of crutching and treating sheep riddled with maggots, stinking of death, half dead, crying in agony - and the best - two young sheep who's eyeballs had been eaten by maggots and who had two balls of maggots in their sockets with maggots and blood streaming down their faces - I was glad to be mulesing!!!

It's so easy to say from your cosy, comfy home that mulesing is wrong and that you should avoid wool from mulesed sheep, but when you come in from another day's work stinking of death (from live animals!!) and the cries of sheep being eaten alive ringing in your ears, you wake up to reality a bit.

Maybe I'm harder now because of it.  I don't kick puppies or drown kittens, nor do I cause any unnecessary suffering to my pony (and, to the irate vegetarian weirdo, I've eaten my own pets, I wouldn't eat my own horse for what borderlines religious reasons, mock that and you WILL be reported!).  But mulesing 2500 sheep was one of the easiest things I've ever done!

Horses need to be controlled and I'd rather the frogs were eating them than they were going to waste!

Because wasting food whilst people starve makes me sick to my stomach.  Funny how vegetarians never rate humans the same they do animals!


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## rhino (14 July 2010)

Harper_Gal said:



			Funny how vegetarians never rate humans the same they do animals!
		
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Sorry HG, not trying to be inflammatory but really don't understand that comment. Please could you explain?


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## Alec Swan (14 July 2010)

H-G,  don't!  let us put this thread to bed.  

Alec.


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## cptrayes (14 July 2010)

Over2You said:



			I happen to think that any of you who have replied saying you'll eat horse, but not your own are hypocrites.
		
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That'd be me then  Actually the only reason I couldn't eat my own is that I'd be crying so hard at having to have had one of my beloved babies killed because it was old or sick that I wouldn't be able to swallow. So if anyone else who felt the same wants to swap, I'll eat yours if you eat mine, OK?

Over2you, on the other hand, you  live in cloud cuckoo land if you think half the paddock ornaments whose owners cannot bear to do the right thing by them but leave them in pain are actually better off being alive.

It's nothing special to take on a failed racehorse, don't congratulate yourself. I've done a dozen and there are hundreds of posters on this site who own ex racers. Now I DID rescue a horse who actually had an appointment with the Vet for euthanasia, so I'll thank you not to preach to me, but to grow up and realise that we live in a world where people have different opinions and deserve some respect even if you personally disagree with them.

Do you ever think about how many animals would never have a life at all if they were not eaten? People don't breed lambs to look at, you know, they breed them to eat. If they aren't killed and eaten, there won't be any more lambs next year. I'd bet my bottom dollar if you asked a lamb if it wanted 16-52 weeks of wombling around a field eating grass, followed by a quick and painless death, or never to live at all, that it would choose life, however short.

I hope you are a vegan over2you. I would respect your vegetarian principles if you are. But if not you might like to research what has to be done to cows and calves to get milk.


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## Serenity087 (14 July 2010)

roo2012 said:



			Sorry HG, not trying to be inflammatory but really don't understand that comment. Please could you explain?
		
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The vegetarian mantra is usually that eating meat is bad for the world, for the animals, for people's healths, and yet they don't seem able to get it through their heads that it's not at all like that.

It's simply their choice.

I can't eating grains, so swapping all the paddocks in the world from grazing to crops would really limit what I could eat.  Then we have to try and grow these crops without killing any of the pest animals (never met a vegetarian who could justify their blood soaked grain over blood soaked meat!)

yes, perhaps growing thousands of acres of wheat could feed the world, but many people rely on hunting and fishing to eat.  Why rob their independance and force them to eat grain we grow for them - which inevitably they won't get to see anyway?

My aim is more directed, however, to the atrocious human rights records of the australian people in terms of their relations with the indigenous peoples.  The town nearest me, in WA, has the highest rate of indigenous suicide in WA.  But thats okay, lets work on illegalising a perfectly acceptable method of disposing of animals before we try and help these people.


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## rhino (14 July 2010)

Harper_Gal said:



			The vegetarian mantra is usually that eating meat is bad for the world, for the animals, for people's healths, and yet they don't seem able to get it through their heads that it's not at all like that.

It's simply their choice.
		
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Yes it is our choice not to eat meat (though to be fair I just don't like the taste). I have no issues with animals being humanely slaughtered for food. I agree there are some rather 'rampant' vegetarians about (sure that's not the right word but you'll know what I mean) but please don't stereotype us.

The comment I had issue with was 'vegetarians never rate humans the same they do animals'. That is nonsense.


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## Sarah Sum1 (14 July 2010)

HG I am a vegetarian and can't possibly see how you can label us all the same! I value humans, of course I do, I just also happen to value all living beings. Nothing wrong with that. Don't tar us all with the same brush, I never force my views on others, and if people want to eat meat thats their choice. I wouldn't dream of telling someone they shouldn't.

ETA I also have no problem with the slaughter of animals if it humanely done.


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## Serenity087 (14 July 2010)

It was more specifically aimed at certain vegetarians...

It may surprise you both, but I used to be one too


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## Sarah Sum1 (14 July 2010)

Harper_Gal said:



			It was more specifically aimed at certain vegetarians...

It may surprise you both, but I used to be one too    

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Fair do's


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## Silverspring (15 July 2010)

Over2You said:



			BTW, I am vegetarian and NEVER eat the flesh of ANY animal!! The whole "humane" slaughter makes me sick to my stomach. As does eating a sentient being.
		
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Wait, so you're a vegetarian for the good of the animals? LOL!  Get an education, yes the poor little meat animals get slaughtered at the end of their life but up to that point they live a very easy life.  Farmers need beef cattle nice a fat and tender, they pretty much get left to their own devices with lots of food thrown in.

Now, diary cattle is often a completely different story.  Have you ever seen diary cattle?  They have a calf which is taken from them at a day old (probably to go for veal, so well done you're supporting that trade) and spend the rest of their life walking in and out from a field with painfully large udders which often get infected, rubbed, have sores etc.  Their is no more sorry a sight to be seen than a herd of diary cows IMO.

So if you want to heal the world and do what's best for the animal become a vegan, it's really the only way.  Stop wearing leather, stop eating eggs (I'm not even getting into the state of egg laying hens) stop drinking milk, eating cheese the whole nine yards.  If you do any of these things then you really need to keep quite on the poor animal rights as every purchase has seen an animal in pain.


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## jrp204 (15 July 2010)

There are different ways of farming, yes you can buy your food from a supermarket where yes, if you buy cheap eggs they will be cage, your chicken is likely to be reared intensively and your milk MAY come from an intensive herd. But you do have options and it does mean abit more inconvenience but it is called buying LOCAL and knowing where your food comes from. We have 2500 free range hens, they are by no means intensive and I would happily show anyone around our unit, we have sheep and pigs which are slaughtered 4 miles away and the meat sold to our local egg customers, considerably cheaper than a supermarket.  The choice of whether or not to eat meat has to be a personal one, but to tar all farmers with the same brush is unreasonable.
If you choose to eat a diet rich in crops that have been grown in scrubbed out rainforest that is your decision but try to remember that although you may not be directly killing an animal your are indirectly endangering them through the destruction of their habitat. And as for vegetarians who eat fish!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Silverspring (15 July 2010)

jrp I totally agree with you that the traditional farming methods are far more caring for teh animals but I would say that trying to find an independent, none intensive dairy farm in central scotland has proven impossible (if anyone knows of one please let me know!)

You can get free range eggs in supermarkets but even these chickens can be treated rather badly.

I get my eggs from the farm (they are free and the chickens are free to mooch around as much as they like, often laying eggs in my stable!) but I try to avoid dairy as much as possible.

I'm not a vegan, I buy meat from my local farm shop but refuse to buy it from supermarkets.  The fact is this isn't always possible or, more to the point, convienent for the majority of people.  Almost every veggie I've met has admitted to buy milk and cheese from the supermarket or local corner shop (so again branded intensively farmed dairy cattle) on a regular basis.  It is these hypocrites that frustrate me, they have such high morals but very little education on how life on the farm actually works.


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## EAST KENT (15 July 2010)

HG..if you can really be present mulesing sheep..you`ve got too hardened to extreme cruelty.Good Lord,in this country they`ve banned docking 2 day old puppies!Farm animals here,however ,have far less protection .Had you not thought of the idea that Merinos,with all those hanging folds of skin are really NOT the breed to run along with the Great Australian Fly?? Simply hacking off those inconvenient skin folds`round the entire bum area and tail.....no anaesthetic  or sutures folks..is unacceptable. My final words..the rest of you ..look up mulesing,it`s on the PETA site......   then you too can express your views on  it. I have a theory..whatever crimes you did to others including animals in this life will revisit you in the next!! There you go..all your bum skin knifed off and tossed out into the outback to live or die.

 As to horses,sorry they are magical creatures that deserve better,don`t eat meat anyway,and certainly not horse.


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## Sarah Sum1 (15 July 2010)

jrp204 said:



			There are different ways of farming, yes you can buy your food from a supermarket where yes, if you buy cheap eggs they will be cage, your chicken is likely to be reared intensively and your milk MAY come from an intensive herd. But you do have options and it does mean abit more inconvenience but it is called buying LOCAL and knowing where your food comes from. We have 2500 free range hens, they are by no means intensive and I would happily show anyone around our unit, we have sheep and pigs which are slaughtered 4 miles away and the meat sold to our local egg customers, considerably cheaper than a supermarket.  The choice of whether or not to eat meat has to be a personal one, but to tar all farmers with the same brush is unreasonable.
If you choose to eat a diet rich in crops that have been grown in scrubbed out rainforest that is your decision but try to remember that although you may not be directly killing an animal your are indirectly endangering them through the destruction of their habitat. And as for vegetarians who eat fish!!!!!!!!!!!!!
		
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You can also buy locally grown vegetables etc.

I agree with you fully, I am a vegetarian, and I think knowing where your meat comes from is important. If I ate meat it would be organic. I normally eat eggs but have stopped recently, but only ever used free range. I am going to cut out dairy too. I also grow some vegetables in pots and use my local farm shop with locally grown produce (no rain forests involved ) BUT I do put my hands up to buying bits from Tescos where I don't have a clue where it comes from and I think I will become more aware to this. I don't want to eat living beings, or help destruct  rain forests. You make good valid points and I for one will look more into where my food comes from. Sounds like you have a great farm BTW

Vegetarians who eat fish are not vegetarians.


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## Amymay (15 July 2010)

After a few months of crutching and treating sheep riddled with maggots, stinking of death, half dead, crying in agony - and the best - two young sheep who's eyeballs had been eaten by maggots and who had two balls of maggots in their sockets with maggots and blood streaming down their faces - I was glad to be mulesing!!!
		
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HG, can I ask how mulesing and eyeballs being eaten by maggots are related?

As for mulesing in general - well there's a whole other topic for discussion, but as to its merits and process - dispicable.


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## Sarah Sum1 (15 July 2010)

I googled Mulesling and I didn't make for pleasant reading. But I didn't read much, so don't know much about it. They are going to phase it out by 20106 not long then


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## Onyxia (15 July 2010)

Over2You said:



			I happen to think that any of you who have replied saying you'll eat horse, but not your own are hypocrites. Reminds me of the thread about the BBC's horse herder documentary. There were cries of how humane the kill was (when they botched killing the horse for the first time and the totally panicked mare broke free only to die of strangulation followed by head trauma followed by stabbing). If it was such a great way of killing a horse, then they should ask their vet to do the same to their animals.
		
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Wrong.
None of the people I know were happy about it,they all saw that it was not "right" but also(thankfully) the people in my life had enough brain power to question if it was "wrong" 
This forum also had a few long discussions about it-we were truely interisted in finding out if it was the best way avalable to those men or if they had another option.

In sub zero tempretures,with nothing else to eat their only food source WAS the horses(who had a bloody good life from the look of things) and I am not experianced enough in slaughter methods to know if they was a better way avalable to them _in those conditions_.
It is not the way we would do it in the west,we have acess to much better methods but those men did not have a UK slaughter house on the doorstap,did they?





Over2You said:



			I also think those of you saying slaughter is the best option for the horse instead of keeping it alive are selfish beyond reason. You seem to think that no one could possibly give an equine a loving forever home. There are plenty of people who give horses (who would otherwise have been slaughtered) a new lease of life. Myself included! Guy would have been dead long ago if the racing industry had got its way. He is perfectly healthy and happy. If it had been up to most of you lot, he'd have met the same fate as that poor grey pony.
		
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Once again, you seem to equate eating meat with not caring  
	
	
		
		
	


	




My Grandfather has always called having an animal put down the last act of kindness.Did not understand why as a kid-then I grew up and was deemed old enough to understand about age and disease.
There is nothing pretty about keeping an old animal alive and in pain simply because you don't want the responsability of calling the vet in.
There is nothing romantic or kind about leaving an animal to starve to death because old age has caused inadaquate dentition.
To me,the above examples are "selfish beyound reason" and anyone who truely cares about their animals will ensure a swift end when the time comes.

As for racing,the "waste" from the sport is a contentious issue and I suspect always will be.
Few can be Denman,and few will be suitable for a ridden working life after racing.
Once again,like it or not it is better for some to be PTS then suffer in the hands of worse and worse owners because they are not up to a normal riding horses life(even those that are well put together may not be able to adapt mentally and I consider mental health every bit as important as physical  ).
As things stand,the options for those horses are be PTS swiftly by an experianced person or be sold time and time again untill they are suffering the worst mankind has to offer useless animals because they can not be riding horses.

Option 1 for me please....




Over2You said:



			BTW, I am vegetarian and NEVER eat the flesh of ANY animal!! The whole "humane" slaughter makes me sick to my stomach. As does eating a sentient being.
		
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Up to you and I choose to respect both your choice and your views on the matter-do others the same courtesy.


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## Serenity087 (15 July 2010)

Mulesing ain't going anywhere, the AWB elected a new governing body which voted to halt proceedings.

Why?

There just isn't an alternative!

As for Mulesing, go to the PETA website by all means.  Thats not what happens. I sat down with my boss prior to mulesing and explained that I had no idea what would happen except what I had read online, and it wasn't going to be pretty.  He told me none of it would be true, and he was right.

From the very start, the idea of tying lambs to fence posts is rubbish.  The Mulesing team bring a trailer with a very strange looking device on it.  In this you can sit four lambs at a time, held in the sitting position.
Now, as we're bothering to catch several thousand lambs, everything gets done, their tags, vaccines, castrates and ear notches.  Then they're mulesed.

The skin from either side of the tail is sliced off.  Just skin.  Much like grazing your knees.  Then the tails are cut and skinned.

It sounds horrific, doesn't it.  In reality, it takes less than 30 seconds for an experienced mulser, I'm guessing on the terms there.  

And, what is telling, is that having listened to sheep crying in agony for months, I heard not one single lamb cry at being mulsed.  Most, if any, cried at being picked up and placed onto the seat like things.  A few of the boys voiced a strong objection to losing their manhood.  Most of the lambs then wondered off to find their mothers.  Their bleats, if you know sheep, were hunger and curiosity, not fear.

I was actually amazed at how little they cried.  This is supposed to be the most horrific thing you can do to a sheep, and yet they were wondering off looking for their mothers so they could have a feed.  Come the end of the day, most were off grazing with the herd again.

Yes, some do die afterwards.  But they have two needles, a drench, two ear notches, an ear tag and are mulesed.  So how can you honestly tell me that the mulesing alone is to blame!  The Animal Rights Nutters honestly believe ear tagging leads to death from shock...

The reason why the maggots in the eyes are relevant is because I have seen true suffering in merino sheep.  I have seen the extent of their problems when going up against flies.  I have gone home at night and cried in the shower because of what I saw.

By the time we were mulesing, either I was entirely immune to the suffering those animals went through, or I was glad to be doing something to reduce it.

Most of the animals I treated had body strike, not bum strike.  Had they not been mulesed we would have been looking at a LOT more dead sheep.  And some days we were finding 40 gone overnight (this is from being healthy one day to dead in 24 hours!).

Fine, so the Merino isn't the most fabulous breed to put in a country ravaged by flies - but we didn't do it.  And where are you going to send millions of sheep to get rid of them all? Remember, you don't like packing them off to the middle east either!

They're working their backsides off to come up with a solution that appeases the nutters and the farmers.  And thus far most of the comprimises do not please the nutters.  Clips, which would remove skin over a period of time and are relatively pain free, are not approved.  Surgery with anaesthetic has been scoffed by farmers, who bear in mind, have to pay for this from an already tight margin.  Poisoning the skin so it drops off painlessly has been scoffed by nutters.

At the end of the day, Mulesing isn't the problem, keeping sheep is.  And until all the sheep in WA are dead, the nutters are going to keep on pushing.  They don't care about the mulesing or the horrific damage flies can do.  They just want to see all the farmers broke and bankrupt and selling up.

Inevitably, someone is now going to suggest I haven't been mulesing.  Fair does.  But I know what I've seen and I know I couldn't ever support a ban until a viable alternative is in place!


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## Sarah Sum1 (15 July 2010)

I didn't read all of what I googled, it wasn't a PETA page or even animals rights, just info. It said it would cause some pain but short lived pain (words to that effect) I didn't however get any idea as to why it is done in the frst place? I figured to keep the area clean? Can you not just shave the area? Or would that mean having to do it too often? I honestly don't have a clue 

Oh and I doubt very much that you have been muelsing


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## Serenity087 (15 July 2010)

Yeah, I make everything up, Sarahsum1 

Merino's have wrinkley skin which allows them to grow more wool for the actual surface area!  They're cutting down on the wrinkles, but the worse ones are those between the rump and the tail.  In unmulesed sheep, they quite often fill up with poo (you know what sheep are like...) and the flies get their eggs into these nice, warm, airtight, poo filled wrinkles - and the sheep are doomed!

When it's bad, the sweat in the wrinkles is enough to trigger strike!  We actually had months of rain, well, drizzle, which kept the sheep damp.  The two with eye problems probably had eye infections.  Flies won't lay on sheep unless they have a reason too!

We pumped chemicals onto them like nothing else, limited however by the fact shearing was fast approaching and no one will buy contaminated wool!

Anyway, mulesing cuts off the bum wrinkles and tails.  The skin grows back shiny shiny and they're then crutched twice a year to keep the wool around their bums and bellies short.  It gives them quite a distinct haircut!

Not a great photo, but one of my ewes and her babies - she's got very short wool around her bum compared to the rest of her body.  And her babies are just booootiful!!


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## Sarah Sum1 (15 July 2010)

Harper_Gal said:



			Yeah, I make everything up, Sarahsum1 

Merino's have wrinkley skin which allows them to grow more wool for the actual surface area!  They're cutting down on the wrinkles, but the worse ones are those between the rump and the tail.  In unmulesed sheep, they quite often fill up with poo (you know what sheep are like...) and the flies get their eggs into these nice, warm, airtight, poo filled wrinkles - and the sheep are doomed!

When it's bad, the sweat in the wrinkles is enough to trigger strike!  We actually had months of rain, well, drizzle, which kept the sheep damp.  The two with eye problems probably had eye infections.  Flies won't lay on sheep unless they have a reason too!

We pumped chemicals onto them like nothing else, limited however by the fact shearing was fast approaching and no one will buy contaminated wool!

Anyway, mulesing cuts off the bum wrinkles and tails.  The skin grows back shiny shiny and they're then crutched twice a year to keep the wool around their bums and bellies short.  It gives them quite a distinct haircut!

Not a great photo, but one of my ewes and her babies - she's got very short wool around her bum compared to the rest of her body.  And her babies are just booootiful!!






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Awww, Run babies run!! From the wicked Museling HG


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## stencilface (15 July 2010)

Christ!  What do they eat?!


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## cptrayes (15 July 2010)

Mulesing is not a welfare issue it's a MONEY issue. There are alternative ways to keep sheep maggot free as we do in the UK but it is much, much more expensive. This isn't about the most humane way to keep sheep alive in Aus, it's about how to keep them alive at least cost.


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## Megan_T (15 July 2010)

Well said anima


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## Amymay (15 July 2010)

Thanks HG for such a full account.  

Still sounds awful to be honest - but then I suppose we all have different standards of what's acceptable.

My information didn't come from the PETA site.


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## Caledonia (15 July 2010)

Over2You said:



			BTW, I am vegetarian and NEVER eat the flesh of ANY animal!! The whole "humane" slaughter makes me sick to my stomach. As does eating a sentient being.
		
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But you eat cheese? If you are as ethical regarding animal welfare as you claim to be, then you would be vegan.


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## applecart14 (15 July 2010)

I though that animals slaughtered this way had to be  pithed which involves sticking a instrument similiar to a whisk in the hole in the animals head and basically scrambling the brain to ensure all brain stem acitivity is ceased.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1852607/


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## rhino (15 July 2010)

Over2You said:



			As does eating a sentient being.
		
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Aah, I think I have found where you are going wrong.

I'm fairly sure (though as a vegetarian don't quote me on it) that the general advice is that it is preferable for the animal to actually be dead (and therefore not sentient) when you eat it.

Maybe someone will correct me on this!


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## Sarah Sum1 (15 July 2010)

applecart14 said:



			I though that animals slaughtered this way had to be  pithed which involves sticking a instrument similiar to a whisk in the hole in the animals head and basically scrambling the brain to ensure all brain stem acitivity is ceased.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1852607/

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I understand that is it better for the animal. But how awful does it sound! Just awful  From what I have seen in documentrys etc, never seen it done and Can't imagine them taking the time to bother. Could be wrong as I guess I don't know what goes on.


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## Serenity087 (15 July 2010)

cptrayes said:



			Mulesing is not a welfare issue it's a MONEY issue. There are alternative ways to keep sheep maggot free as we do in the UK but it is much, much more expensive. This isn't about the most humane way to keep sheep alive in Aus, it's about how to keep them alive at least cost.
		
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How can you compare UK methods to Australian methods?

I mean, for a start, there are various studies which show lambs may suffer more for having their tails ringed, as is the standard UK practise, than having their tails cut off during mulesing...

Then, you're talking about dipping several million sheep in a country where water is hard to come by, compared to dipping a few thousand in one where it rains constantly!!

Believe you me, these girls were treated with the whole shaboosh.  We dipped them (well, actually, it was a spangly new fangled hydraulic sprayer, and it was awesome fun!), we treated them individually, we crutched them individually, we checked on them every day (thats a fair bit of fuel when your farm covers 9000 acres!) and if they hadn't of been mulesed and crutched on top of it, we'd have been up poo creek!!!

The ones who did get bum strike were the ones who hadn't been mulesed!!

I mean, we mulesed 2500 lambs after a poor lambing - would be closer to 3500 in a good year - and thats a small farm.  There just aren't farms that size in the UK!


And in answer to what they ate, we were feeding them wheat hay (hay cut and dried from wheat that got frosted and died!), wheat, oats, lupins and a bit of canola that snuck in.
My job was to feed 'em!


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## EAST KENT (15 July 2010)

amymay said:



			Thanks HG for such a full account.  

Still sounds awful to be honest - but then I suppose we all have different standards of what's acceptable.

My information didn't come from the PETA site.
		
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And that is my original point..animal welfare and conception of cruelty ARE very different in Australia...AND it is still absolutely unacceptable.If this mutilation happened in UK there`d be cruelty prosecutions without doubt.So they don`t cry out..too blooming shocked to do so .


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## cptrayes (15 July 2010)

Harper_Gal said:



			How can you compare UK methods to Australian methods?
		
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Why should I not? Just because you have more land does not mean that you are forced to run more sheep. A farmer in the hills here would consider 1500 lambs a huge crop, and it allows him to genuinely check them every day. How on earth can you say you checked them every day when they were roaming 9000 acres? How many sheep bottoms did you actually look at close enough to see maggots?

Like I said, this is about money. If you ran a smaller flock you could make sure you caught maggot strike before it did much damage. Or you could take the daggings off your sheep regularly like is done around here. If Australia hadn't bred merinos deliberately to have wrinkled skin they'd have less maggot strike but also have less wool. 

And if you did all that then you couldn't pay your bills unless every other farmer did the same level of care. If everyone refused to buy Australian wool, you'd change your methods. It's about money.

For your interest many farms around me no longer remove the lambs tails, it is widely becoming recognised as unnecessary for hill sheep. I have also ringed lambs and while I can possibly see that a clean cut of the tail may compare, there is absolutely no comparison between ringing a tail and cutting and scalping their tails and  backsides.  

In an earlier post you mention that it takes 30 seconds to mules a lamb, as if it is all over once it's done. If you've ever burnt yourself in 30 seconds and destroyed the skin you'll know that the pain lasts for weeks until it is all completely healed and can continue long after.

Please don't try and kid us. This is not a welfare issue. It is done to save the money which would be required to look after the sheep in a less intensive way, and to enable you to continue to breed sheep with wrinkled skin and lots of wool which are heaven sent maggot paradise. It may be an economic necessity for an Australian sheep farmer who wants to feed his family,  but it's impossible to accept that you do it for the good of the lamb.


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## ceiron (15 July 2010)

edited


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## EAST KENT (16 July 2010)

cptrayes said:



			Why should I not? Just because you have more land does not mean that you are forced to run more sheep. A farmer in the hills here would consider 1500 lambs a huge crop, and it allows him to genuinely check them every day. How on earth can you say you checked them every day when they were roaming 9000 acres? How many sheep bottoms did you actually look at close enough to see maggots?

Like I said, this is about money. If you ran a smaller flock you could make sure you caught maggot strike before it did much damage. Or you could take the daggings off your sheep regularly like is done around here. If Australia hadn't bred merinos deliberately to have wrinkled skin they'd have less maggot strike but also have less wool. 

And if you did all that then you couldn't pay your bills unless every other farmer did the same level of care. If everyone refused to buy Australian wool, you'd change your methods. It's about money.

For your interest many farms around me no longer remove the lambs tails, it is widely becoming recognised as unnecessary for hill sheep. I have also ringed lambs and while I can possibly see that a clean cut of the tail may compare, there is absolutely no comparison between ringing a tail and cutting and scalping their tails and  backsides.  

In an earlier post you mention that it takes 30 seconds to mules a lamb, as if it is all over once it's done. If you've ever burnt yourself in 30 seconds and destroyed the skin you'll know that the pain lasts for weeks until it is all completely healed and can continue long after.

Please don't try and kid us. This is not a welfare issue. It is done to save the money which would be required to look after the sheep in a less intensive way, and to enable you to continue to breed sheep with wrinkled skin and lots of wool which are heaven sent maggot paradise. It may be an economic necessity for an Australian sheep farmer who wants to feed his family,  but it's impossible to accept that you do it for the good of the lamb.
		
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Thankyou for that!  And it needs stopping right now..it is extreme cruelty;also as wool is now hardly worth the cost of shearing..then WHY merinos,a tighter skinned sheep still gives meat does`nt it? Farm animals do not get nearly enough protection.


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## cptrayes (17 July 2010)

East Kent wool in this county does not cover the cost of shearing precisely because the Australians have bred sheep specifically to produce maximum wool, then they rear them intensively farmed with as little labour as possible which produces vast quantities of wool at miniumum cost. Our wool, which is taken from animals bred almost exclusively for meat, cannot compare. It's not produced in enough volume to compete on price. But for Australian farmers, the wool is a valuable product in its own right, quite aside from the meat, and that's why they bred merinos with wrinkled skin to produce maximum wool.


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## Waterborn (17 July 2010)

An interesting thread, any views on the attached (please don't watch if it may upset you) ?http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FY3UjD9bFeo&feature=related


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## Alec Swan (17 July 2010)

Waterborn,

I forced myself to watch it.  I had a rough idea what was coming.  The actual slaughter process was a disgrace.  There can be no justification for treating any animal in that way.  None whatsoever,  and I fail to see how anyone could think otherwise.  It was sickening.

The dressing out was what one would expect,  and acceptable.  I would think that looking at the environment it was probably a licensed abattoir, though most certainly not in the UK.  Looking at the first horse shot,  I would imagine that the man doing the killing aimed initially at the shoulder,  intentionally,  and in an attempt to anchor the animal.  The slaughter gun was operated by an airline,  and if being humane is part of a slaughter man's ethos,  then it was demonstrably unsuitable.  

Horses should never be shot in a shooting box,  especially one that was designed for much larger animals,  which gave the horse too much room to evade the gun.  The lunacy of it is that with the time taken,  because of a totally unsuitable system,  then doing it properly and in a sympathetic environment,  would have been far faster and more efficient,  and incidentally it would have been humane.

It may well be that the horses in the film had never been handled,  and were being treated like cattle.  That is not an excuse.  The box was much to large,  the size of the gun would have caused the horse to be alarmed,  and try to evade it.  

I would hope that all those who watch the film,  which you have offered,  will accept that it was not filmed in the UK,  that no competent UK slaughter man would ever consider such behaviour,  and finally,  that no UK vet would tolerate such cruelty ( qualified vets are in attendance at all UK abattoirs).

Whilst I don't blame you for your post,  I am none the less rather saddened by it.  I would be particularly interested to hear where it was filmed.  Presumably the premises was licensed,  and if it was within the EU,  then closure should be immediate,  without a second thought.  

There was a previous youtube placed on this thread.  It was Potters at Bristol.  The slaughter man was highly skilled,  conscientious,  and the horse was dealt with in an acceptable manner.  If it has to be done,  then that was a suitable demonstration.

Alec.


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## concernedaussie (18 July 2010)

GDAY Alec

I read your last post and thought I could approach the forum again with the concern we have here in Australia.

The two main abbattoirs here in Australia are Belgian owned and export horsemeat mainly to Europe and Japan. In 2003 they exported 3.000 tons of horsemeat and by 2009 24,000 tons were being exported. Australians generally don't eat horsemeat.

Horses are not bred for human consumption here.  We have no horse passports as horse owners and therefore no one knows what drugs have been administered to horses that are slaughtered. In particular 'bute' is commonly used and  reports have stated BUTE is a carcinogen and attacks the bone marrow in humans. 

All this information and much much more concerning the inhumane slaughter  such as the video you commented on and many others are now available on the Facebook page as stated in the heading of this forum.

The European Union, I have read, is at this time looking into the trace tests for substances dangerous to humans in horsemeat.

The facts that are reported are well documented and referenced and I am only giving a very brief summary of what I have read.

Best Regards


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## Alec Swan (18 July 2010)

G'day to you too,  Aus,

I was wondering what had happened to you!  

The question of administered drugs to animals entering the food chain is an entirely different point.  Most chemicals so administered have a meat withdrawal period,  and as in the UK,  we no longer have a business which relies upon the meat trade,  so we "tend" not to consider this.  Some chemicals have a withdrawal period,  whilst some,  Rompon for instance,  will bar the animal from ever being eaten,  by humans.

There was a TV programme which I watched,  a few years ago,  which concerned a woman in America,  who campaigned,  with a vengeance,  to have the slaughter "systems" changed in her home land.  Those abattoirs which headed her thoughts found that productivity improved.  That those animals being killed were so much easier to handle,  and that profits improved.  All of this was achieved by a woman who was worried for the welfare of those animals going for slaughter.  She faced the fact that humans eat meat,  and the best way to deal with it was to address the problem of the slaughter system.

Stopping the meat eating trade will only result in miserable horses living a miserable existence.  Better that they arrive at a humane end,  and that they are put to some use. There is a need for a meat trade in equines.  Properly organised,  and if needs be regulated,  the hideous film,  put up by Waterborn,  will become history,  and in my view,  quite rightly so.  

You wont change the fact that humans eat meat.  Get the slaughter systems in place which allow us to eat that meat,  with a clear conscience. 

Whilst we probably aren't,  I would hope that we may find some common ground!  

Alec.


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## concernedaussie (18 July 2010)

There are problems with overbreeding horses here and good horses end up in the hands of the "dogger",  Jamie Grey is a "dogger" I believe.
Also a horse can be administered a substance one day and slaughtered the next.  There are no records.

I read an article that many Dutch horsemeat eaters had turned away from eating horsemeat when they realised the inhumane treatment the horses received in the country where they were slaughtered.

Perhaps people who eat horsemeat in Europe think the meat comes from Europe.  It is a Belgian company who operate in Australia.

I know Jamie Oliver impacted on me when he disclosed the battery hen issues.

i only buy eggs from a local producer now, who I see has free range facilities.

The market will ultimately decide in the long run.

I believe we are on common ground in that we both do not wish to see unnecessary suffering and we both live on this very small delicate planet.

Might meet up one day, you never know.

Have a good one!


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