# owner refusing flexion test ??



## Mrsjenks (1 October 2013)

i appreciate a lot of people do not agree with the flexion test, however, we have been to have a look at another horse today, rode lovely, lovely in every other way. she said she was happy to have a health check done everything else looked at but said she would not allow a flexion test to be done, as it would not matter because she is not dressage, show jumping and because she is only being sold for 'cheap'. the horse is a 12yo mare tb x id. on contacting our vet, they have told us to walk away as she may be hiding a possible issue with the legs. thoughts on this appreciated : /


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## Amymay (1 October 2013)

I think it's a tricky one.  And as you say people do have differing views on the benefit of a flexion test.

Were you looking to have a 5 stage vetting done?


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## Mrsjenks (1 October 2013)

no just a 2 star, when oh called her she said well she might pass she might fail, its a £1200 horse. alarm bells ringing


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## AdorableAlice (1 October 2013)

Mrsjenks said:



			i appreciate a lot of people do not agree with the flexion test, however, we have been to have a look at another horse today, rode lovely, lovely in every other way. she said she was happy to have a health check done everything else looked at but said she would not allow a flexion test to be done, as it would not matter because she is not dressage, show jumping and because she is only being sold for 'cheap'. the horse is a 12yo mare tb x id. on contacting our vet, they have told us to walk away as she may be hiding a possible issue with the legs. thoughts on this appreciated : /
		
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Listen to your vet.  Cheap or only being used as a happy hacker is not relevant, the horse still needs to be sound.


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## Amymay (1 October 2013)

AdorableAlice said:



			Listen to your vet.  Cheap or only being used as a happy hacker is not relevant, the horse still needs to be sound.
		
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I tend to agree.

It's interesting though that they'll not allow flexion testing but presumably were quite happy for the horse to be lunged on hard ground.....


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## Capriole (1 October 2013)

I;d walk away too but because of the other things she's said rather than the not wanting a flexion test done on her horse. I know someone who directly contributes a poorly performed flexion test for injuring her horse with the result it was eventually destroyed. Now I wouldn't like to say if she's wrong or she's right, but I know she would absolutely not allow a flexion test on another of her horses be that a cheap £1200 hacker or not.


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## Mrsjenks (1 October 2013)

thank you, that's all I needed to hear. our vet suggested we ask her if she would fund the cost of having the horses legs x-rayed to prove there is is nothing wrong, seeing as she was the one refusing the test- her reply was no, it would have to be our cost, and again repeated that that it was only a £1200 horse. what is really annoying me is that yes, it may only be 'cheap' but why would we take a gamble on my first horse or any horse for that matter the price of the horse should be irrelevant


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## Mrsjenks (1 October 2013)

amymay, I rode her in the school, then took her onto the road (I made sure owner had her on lead rope) the horse had no shoes on. I may be wrong but surely taking a horse onto tarmac where cars are whizzing past at 60mph and lots of stones about could make the horse lame or do some damage??? capriole, that is so sad, as I said I understand some people not agreeing with the test, but surely she could have made more of an effort to prove in another way that the horses legs were sound ? or am I being naïve ?


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## Amymay (1 October 2013)

Mrsjenks said:



			amymay, I rode her in the school, then took her onto the road (I made sure owner had her on lead rope) the horse had no shoes on. I may be wrong but surely taking a horse onto tarmac where cars are whizzing past at 60mph and lots of stones about could make the horse lame or do some damage???
		
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Not really -


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## RachelBristol (1 October 2013)

I would walk away.  But you could opt for the 15M trot on a hard surface test, that will also show any problems, and a LOT of horses I have tested on this test arent sound!


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## AdorableAlice (1 October 2013)

Mrsjenks said:



			no just a 2 star, when oh called her she said well she might pass she might fail, its a £1200 horse. alarm bells ringing
		
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Let me reword her comment for you.

Horse is cheap because there is or have been problems.  Vendor knows full well it will fail flexi tests, the vendor will not fund the xrays because they will have been already done and the vendor knows full well what they will reveal.  Vendor is happy for the purchaser to pay - why not, no financial loss to vendor and when the horse is rejected by purchaser, at great cost to the purchaser, she is confident somebody else will come along and think they have a bargain.

OP, I really hope you find your ideal first horse, this one is not it.  You will face various problems with your new horse, we all do, regardless of how experienced we are.  Settling a new horse into it's new environment can take a little time, getting to know it etc etc, but at least let yourself get started with a sound horse.


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## Capriole (1 October 2013)

Mrsjenks said:



			, that is so sad, as I said I understand some people not agreeing with the test, but surely she could have made more of an effort to prove in another way that the horses legs were sound ? or am I being naïve ?
		
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Not at all. There are enough horses for sale out there that you don't need to go into buying one where you have red flags from the start. And that's red flags for any reason you feel is a red flag.  Happy hunting, and good luck with finding the right horse for you.


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## Mrsjenks (1 October 2013)

thanks for the advice guys, we've called her and thanked her for the time but said we will not be taking it any further. I already had it in my head that this was a big alarm bell but just needed some extra guidance. thanks again


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## alainax (1 October 2013)

£1200 is not that cheap for a 12yo happy hacker, sounds a reasonable price but certainly not a price you'd think to take a punt on it. Ive had a 5 year old and a 9 year old both flexion tested prior to purchase and both passed with flying colours. If any of those sellers refused id have walked away for sure.


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## dogatemysalad (1 October 2013)

I do have some sympathy with the owner, flexion tests are inconclusive and dependent on many variables. For an experienced vet they are an indicator but the decision to buy or not doesn't rest simply on a failed flexion test.
 Your seller could have buted the horse, not rested it before vetting and no one would have known. 

The vet obviously would not like an owner to prevent a flexion as he/she vet could be liable if he makes a mistake even though the test is not obligatory in the exam. 

As the horse is cheap and not sold as a competition horse, the owner may just not want her animal subjected to the procedure. 

However, as a buyer, you need to feel confident about the horse you're considering and if you're worried, walk away. 

FWIW my 5 stage vetted horse showed up problems just after I got her home. No vetting is an absolute guarantee, its just a good indication of the horse one day.


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## Goldenstar (1 October 2013)

Listern to the vet look for another horse.
A lame horse is not cheap at any price.


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## Pearlsasinger (1 October 2013)

Mrsjenks said:



			amymay, I rode her in the school, then took her onto the road (I made sure owner had her on lead rope) the horse had no shoes on. I may be wrong but surely taking a horse onto tarmac where cars are whizzing past at 60mph and lots of stones about could make the horse lame or do some damage???
		
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Very unlikely.  TBH I'm surprised that the owner was prepared to sell her horse to someone who feels the need for a lead-rein.  Except that I'm not as this seller sounds to be unscrupulous.  Please,please wait a while longer to make this all important purchase, you want your first experience of horse-owning to be a good one.


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## ArabianBeauty (1 October 2013)

Walk away. I know two people who bought horses and the seller would not allow vetting ! Guess what ? One has back issue and the other hock problems


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## Mrsjenks (1 October 2013)

Pearlsasinger said:



			TBH I'm surprised that the owner was prepared to sell her horse to someone who feels the need for a lead-rein.
		
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!!! pearlsasinger, I found this quite condacending ! for your information, during my riding lessons I have only ever hacked out on farmtracks etc, the place where I would be taking my horse is surrounded by hills, I would eventually take it onto the road once I knew the horse better, I think I was being quite sensible by asking the owner to have her on a lead rope, 1. because as afore mentioned I have never hacked out on a busy road before, 2. this is a strange horse, and 3. as I have been told a million times already, people will say anything to sell a horse I was told she was great in traffic, so should I have just took her word for gospel and took the horse out on my own and it possibly bolting with me or spooking ?? sorry for airing on the side of caution. also, when I asked her to have horse on lead rope you think she should have said no get off her ? does me asking for this bit of security mean I would not be a good horse owner ? and no-one should sell a horse to a first time buyer that hasn't got years of experience ? every one has got to start somewhere, and I am spending my time looking for the right horse for me, I am a confident rider yet still understand that I am not very experienced and therefore was cautious, this does not make me a bad rider, or mean that I am not ready to own my own horse.


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## hnmisty (1 October 2013)

£1200 isn't cheap if you end up with a cripple.

Yes, flexion tests are mildly controversial...but to refuse to let one be done just looks plain suspicious!

Walking away is the best decision.


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## Mince Pie (1 October 2013)

I'm going to go against the grain here, if the owner was happy with the idea of the horse being lunged on a small circle on hard ground/concrete then I would have gone ahead with the vetting. I also don't agree with flexion tests.
ArabianBeauty, it wasn't the vetting the owner had the issue with, just the flexions I think.


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## Leo Walker (1 October 2013)

I'm just going to point out thats theres next to NO hacking at the yard your going to. A 20min max walk round the "gallops" and thats it. Any other hacking involves going down a very fast rat run completely overshadowed by trees which is incredibly dark in full daylight never mind any other time. I rode it ONCE, never ever again! Or you can ride on the verge of the dual carriageway. I've never done that as to me its suicide! Theres also next to no winter turn out. 2 hours every other day in the winter. 

I'm sure there is a horse out there for you, but at the minute people see you coming. I didnt actually know the people the last one belonged to, and I forgot to reply to your PM as I'm in the middle of moving and up to my eyes! I'm sorry, I should have! Trotters and TBs generally dont make good first horses, and I know thats a generalisation! but its worth pointing out What sort of horse are you looking for  and what do you want to do with it? I'm sure the collective power of HHO can find some suitable candidates. I"m not the only one local to you


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## Leo Walker (1 October 2013)

hnmisty said:



			£1200 isn't cheap
		
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full stop for this area of the country. £1200 round here buys quite a lot at the minute, especially with winter looming!


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## Echo Bravo (1 October 2013)

Must admit I've only ever had one pony vetted and that was many years ago and she passed but 6 months down the road she became lame and was never sound for the rest of the 20 odd years I had her, the rest of my horses that I've bought over the years I never have bothered having them vetted and they have always stayed sound, except for my old tb but that was old age and arthritis.


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## Mrsjenks (1 October 2013)

thanks for that Frankie, its good to know what the prices are in our area and a heads up on the livery, part of the appeal is the fact its 2 miles from home and we have the Cleveland hills to use.

im looking for that sort of price range, 15.3 to 16.3 horse suitable for a 'novice', to be used for hacking and schoolwork. no tb's but wouldn't mind tb x. preferably 10 to 15yo. does this horse exist ??


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## hnmisty (1 October 2013)

FrankieCob said:



			full stop for this area of the country. £1200 round here buys quite a lot at the minute, especially with winter looming!
		
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It certainly isn't cheap for something that is footsore! And especially as prices are low atm. Totally agree- despite the fact I probably overpaid for Barry! 

I am glad you decided to walk away, mrsjenks.


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## Meowy Catkin (1 October 2013)

Where did it say the horse was footsore? I can't find it.

Anyway... I hope you find your perfect horse soon MrsJ. It would be worth looking for a yard with daily turnout as even the calmest horse can get wound up with no proper turnout and as the horse will be new to you, you wont know whether or not your new horse will cope. Also many people have unshod/barefoot horses that are fine without shoes, including hacking on the roads. I'm in the 'you should only shoe, if the horse needs them' camp.


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## hnmisty (1 October 2013)

Faracat said:



			Where did it say the horse was footsore? I can't find it
		
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Oops, apologies, got confused with another thread where someone was taking on a horse on loan that is footsore.

I echo faracat's call on turnout. I once had a horse that did it's damn best to dump me on the floor because it had been stabled for 2 days because of poor turnout. Luckily I stuck. 

Turnout is probably the one thing I wouldn't compromise on (within reason). That's why I moved to a different yard from the one I'd had my loan pony at when I got Barry. It's not fair to stable a horse for long periods of time because the yard has cr@p turnout, unless your horse is one of those who prefers his stable.


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## Meowy Catkin (1 October 2013)

Oops, apologies, got confused with another thread
		
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No problem.  At least I wasn't being thick or had forgotten how to read!


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## Pearlsasinger (1 October 2013)

Mrsjenks said:



			!!! pearlsasinger, I found this quite condacending ! for your information, during my riding lessons I have only ever hacked out on farmtracks etc, the place where I would be taking my horse is surrounded by hills, I would eventually take it onto the road once I knew the horse better, I think I was being quite sensible by asking the owner to have her on a lead rope, 1. because as afore mentioned I have never hacked out on a busy road before, 2. this is a strange horse, and 3. as I have been told a million times already, people will say anything to sell a horse I was told she was great in traffic, so should I have just took her word for gospel and took the horse out on my own and it possibly bolting with me or spooking ?? sorry for airing on the side of caution. also, when I asked her to have horse on lead rope you think she should have said no get off her ? does me asking for this bit of security mean I would not be a good horse owner ? and no-one should sell a horse to a first time buyer that hasn't got years of experience ? every one has got to start somewhere, and I am spending my time looking for the right horse for me, I am a confident rider yet still understand that I am not very experienced and therefore was cautious, this does not make me a bad rider, or mean that I am not ready to own my own horse.
		
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I'm afraid that every post you make shows that you are neither an experienced rider, (confident on a RS horse suitable for someone with 8 months riding experience does not make a good, nor anywhere near good rider), nor ready to own your own horse.  You obviously don't want to hear that, so I shall say no more.  Neither will I say 'I told you so', when it all goes wrong.


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## Patterdale (1 October 2013)

Pearlsasinger said:



			I'm afraid that every post you make shows that you are neither an experienced rider, (confident on a RS horse suitable for someone with 8 months riding experience does not make a good, nor anywhere near good rider), nor ready to own your own horse.  You obviously don't want to hear that, so I shall say no more.  Neither will I say 'I told you so', when it all goes wrong.
		
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Who made you the Horse Owning Police!?

MrsJenks, you'll soon realise that there's a lot of this self-righteous preaching on HHO :rolleyes3:
If you are going to a livery yard where you'll have support, you're getting experienced help to find the horse, doing your homework and planning to continue lessons after you get a horse, there's no reason why you won't be absolutely fine. 

Some people can ride brilliantly after 8 weeks, some are still hopeless after 8 years. No one on a forum who has never met you can possibly judge your skill level (they'll still try though). 
Get as much help as you can, never stop asking for advice and get yourself on a nice supportive yard, and you'll be doing better than a lot of first time owners.


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## maccachic (1 October 2013)

Why do you need to be an experienced rider to own a horse?  Provide you have a good support network and a safe horse and some common sense.  

Not sure what trotters are like over your guys side of the world but they are more than suitable over here for a learner MOST have good laid back unflappable temperments.


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## Leo Walker (1 October 2013)

Mrsjenks said:



			thanks for that Frankie, its good to know what the prices are in our area and a heads up on the livery, part of the appeal is the fact its 2 miles from home and we have the Cleveland hills to use.

im looking for that sort of price range, 15.3 to 16.3 horse suitable for a 'novice', to be used for hacking and schoolwork. no tb's but wouldn't mind tb x. preferably 10 to 15yo. does this horse exist ??
		
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You absolutely cant hack out in the hills sadly. My sister was there for a long time and the only time she hacked out properly was when I rolled up and insisted it wasn't that bad and we went hacking. We made it to the hills, but only after going down that road. After nearly 5yrs I can still remember thinking I was going to die! Cars flying up behind me at 60mph who couldn't have seen me and suddenly understanding why NO ONE else ever did it  Its not a bad yard, but most of the people there hack round the gallops and use the school in the winter. I have friends who are happily still there. 

              The yard you want to go to can be pretty judgmental about people even if your not a novice! I'm an instructor and they were fairly rude to me, until someone else pointed out I made my living teaching, at which point they were much nicer  I wouldnt recommend it to anyone as a first time owner who wants access to the hills!

I can recommend no amount of people who have smart sane cobs for sale, mainly as since I fractured my spine, thats what I want to ride, but I dont actually know anyone selling the sort of horse your looking for in a dealer sense. Are you on Facebook? The local horsey groups have horses coming up daily that sound like they would suit


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## siennamum (2 October 2013)

at that age & with some mileage, many horses would fail and it wouldn't necessarily be a cause for concern. The key is to know what you are dealing with. Horse could fail the vetting and you might still want to buy it. You'd be affected should you decide to insure, but it does sound like owner knows the horse has an issue and that might explain why she has no shoes etc. 
You could tell the owner that you will accept the horse might fail and just see how lame vet thinks it is & what the implications are.
TBH though someone who would knowingly sell a lame older horse cheaply in a slightly underhand way is unlikely to be some one you would trust.


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## xloopylozzax (2 October 2013)

What happened to Archie?


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## EstherYoung (2 October 2013)

I think there's a difference between an owner who says 'I don't agree with flexions but you're welcome to do anything else you like to check soundness' and an owner who says 'I don't agree with flexions because there's no point as the horse is only cheap'.

Nb If you're wanting the Cleveland Hills to ride over there are loads of yards if you head a bit further into the hills. No point in having the hills tantalisingly close if you can't get to them. I think in your position I'd be tempted to approach one of the trekking centres to see if they've got a horse for loan over the winter. It would get you some more experience of both horsecare and hill riding, and some more connections in the horse world, and then you can look properly for one of your own in the spring.


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## hnmisty (2 October 2013)

EstherYoung said:



			I think in your position I'd be tempted to approach one of the trekking centres to see if they've got a horse for loan over the winter. It would get you some more experience of both horsecare and hill riding, and some more connections in the horse world, and then you can look properly for one of your own in the spring.
		
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This is a wise suggestion. Loans are an excellent way of building up to the rigours of owning and all the work that entails. Plus you don't have the commitment of having bought. I think that maybe at 8 months, you will buy something you are happy on now...and you might well find that by February, a consistent amount of lessons will have brought your riding on loads and you will have advanced beyond its ability. 

I for one can't blame you for being eager to get your own horse, but there's no point rushing in guns blazing (I know you are not rushing as much as some I know). Plus winter is not going to be fun! I'd see if you can find a loan and then look again in spring. There isn't much fun to horse owning in the winter!


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## Mrsjenks (2 October 2013)

Pearlsasinger said:



			I'm afraid that every post you make shows that you are neither an experienced rider, (confident on a RS horse suitable for someone with 8 months riding experience does not make a good, nor anywhere near good rider), nor ready to own your own horse.  You obviously don't want to hear that, so I shall say no more.  Neither will I say 'I told you so', when it all goes wrong.
		
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oh, im sorry, I thought I was on the 'new riders and owners' section. maybe you never read the sticky at the head of this section, here have another read " If you are an existing forum member who is kind enough to offer advice to any newcomer, please remember that everyone had to start somewhere and the individuals posting on this board are keen to expand their knowledge". this thread is about an owner refusing a flexion test, and thank you to everyone who commented regarding the actual question its much appreciated ! however I am appauled and angered that you feel through some powers of what I can only assume is telepathy that you know who I am,or what my riding capabilities are ! what is most annoying is the fact that you have come to the conclusion that I am not ready to own my own horse, how dare you ! please do not take me for a silly little girl, I am an educated 30 year old married woman with two children. every day I drive past horses that are tied up at the side of the road, who said the people who own that could have a horse ?! my horse will be kept in a livery yard for a start, you do not know me, do not assume I would not be able to look after a horse just because I have come on here to ask peoples opinions and for advice, how stupid of me to assume I wouldn't bump into some self opinionated elitist know it all. please if you cannot give helpful advice instead of railroading and insulting me, then please refrain from adding your two pennies worth on any of my future threads. p.s I wont be listening for your 'I told you so' as there will be no need for one.


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## Coldfeet! (2 October 2013)

maccachic said:



			Why do you need to be an experienced rider to own a horse?  Provide you have a good support network and a safe horse and some common sense.  

Not sure what trotters are like over your guys side of the world but they are more than suitable over here for a learner MOST have good laid back unflappable temperments.
		
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I bought my first horse 25 years ago, never ridden a horse other than on "pony rides" but volunteered at a local charity and gained vaulable care experience. I was in my teens I bought a tb with a tendon problem off the track for peanuts after I self taught on a part loan for a couple of months and had her til her dying day 13 years later. Never been to a riding school. Follow your vets advice if in doubt Mrs Jenks. I was so desperate to own my own horse and a little young and crazy!


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## Mrsjenks (2 October 2013)

thanks, we called and told her no thanks to the horse we saw yesterday. total shame about archie, the vetting turned up some things that would have not made him suitable to buy. back to the drawing board it is ! draft horses - ish, and tb x seem to be the ones that are catching my eye all the time. I know somewhere out there is a lovely horse just waiting for me, and ill find it im sure


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## Goldenstar (2 October 2013)

The right horse  is out there waiting ,you just need to find him.


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## xloopylozzax (2 October 2013)

what is your budget, and how far are you willing to travel?

We all love a bit of fantasy horse shopping


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## Echo Bravo (2 October 2013)

And I think you MrsJenks have been very rude back to Pearlsinger, so climb off your high horse.


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## maccachic (3 October 2013)

Echo Bravo said:



			And I think you MrsJenks have been very rude back to Pearlsinger, so climb off your high horse. 

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Are you suggesting she gets something smaller a pony perhaps?  ;P


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## Mrsjenks (3 October 2013)

Echo Bravo said:



			And I think you MrsJenks have been very rude back to Pearlsinger, so climb off your high horse. 

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I havnt got one yet pmsl


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## Orangehorse (3 October 2013)

There have been cases where horses have been damaged by poor Flexion tests, but I think vets are more aware of this now and take more care!  Some vets seem to hold the leg up for ages, others for not very long, it is interesting to see the difference, but nerve wracking for the owner.  I think it is quite a severe test.

As everything, the results are open to interpretation.  Nearly all older horses would take a couple of poor strides afterwards, but you wouldn't something that was obviously hopping lame.  

However, my 15 year old passed flexion tests last year, although as I pointed out to my vet, he has hardly had a hard day's work in his life!


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## katastrophykat (5 October 2013)

Hi- I'm up near Durham, is that too far for you to travel? If not, I can pop a post up on my local sites if you like? Pm me if you want


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## JLD (7 October 2013)

also just a quick aside - my horse passed flexion tests for insurance purposes a year before he was put down due to severe arthritis of both hocks that didnt respond to any treatment, and in restrospect was exhibiting behaviours at the time he passed to suggest he was already experiencing some pain. but more with the thread - I looked at 20 horses before I found mine, keep looking your perfect horse is out there and I would agree that with the right horse, support of a livery yard and a good instructor you will likely be fine, we all need to start somewhere and everyone has a first horse sometime - I didnt get mine till i was 32 and was just a 'riding school rider' till then albeit for many years.


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## keepitugly (9 October 2013)

Can you PM me who it was? I think I might know.

Drop me a message and I can help you look, I know where definitely not to go, there's a few unscrupulous types selling things in your budget I'm worried you'll be drawn in by. Would you consider something younger or a smaller cob type?

Message me I'm happy to help you and even come view with you if you like.


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## Pale Rider (18 October 2013)

I don't let vets do flexion tests, full stop. If it's an issue go elsewhere.


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## cptrayes (18 October 2013)

Orangehorse said:



			There have been cases where horses have been damaged by poor Flexion tests
		
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I put up a thread a couple of weeks back asking for examples of this and no one could give me one. I think it's apocryphal, and the horses that have been permanently or long term  lamed by them had an undiagnosed issue just waiting to be found.


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## cptrayes (18 October 2013)

Pale Rider,

Why don't you let vets do them?  I'd not only allow a vet to do them, I do them myself. They can be very useful to confirm those 'gut feeling that the horse is not quite right' moments or to reassure that all is well with a resolved issue. For example, before I put him back into hard work after his spine operation, I will be flexing my horses hind leg that was kicked and left with a lump on the hock last year, to make sure that it is not going arthritic.  That will help me not to confuse hock pain with back pain if his rehab does not continue as smoothly as it has started.


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## Goldenstar (18 October 2013)

Pale Rider said:



			I don't let vets do flexion tests, full stop. If it's an issue go elsewhere.
		
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Got a lot of lame horses PR ?


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## Goldenstar (18 October 2013)

cptrayes said:



			I put up a thread a couple of weeks back asking for examples of this and no one could give me one. I think it's apocryphal, and the horses that have been permanently or long term  lamed by them had an undiagnosed issue just waiting to be found.
		
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I agree with you on this if you watch want a horses joints do in hard work it would be I think it about impossible for a human to permanently lame a SOUND horse by doing a flexion test .
I flex test my own too it's a valuable way to watch for changes and I lunge on a Tarmac slope in trot on a ten metre circle .


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## AdorableAlice (18 October 2013)

Goldenstar said:



			Got a lot of lame horses PR ?
		
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Fictional horses more like.


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## Pale Rider (18 October 2013)

Finding someone who can do a consistent flexion test would be an achievement. Unreliable at best, potentially damaging at worse. Originally developed as a dope test. Just because someone is buying a horse doesn't give them a right to dictate what tests they want done, against the sellers wishes, as a buyer if you're not happy, go else where. No-one is forced to buy a horse, or sell it if they are not happy with the seller, buyer or vet.


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## Booboos (18 October 2013)

I've been reading this thread with interest. I have never had a problem with a vet performing a flexion test and diagnostically they have been very useful to pin-point a problem. I have also never had a vet refuse to do one on the grounds that it would cause harm.



Pale Rider said:



			Finding someone who can do a consistent flexion test would be an achievement. Unreliable at best, potentially damaging at worse. Originally developed as a dope test. Just because someone is buying a horse doesn't give them a right to dictate what tests they want done, against the sellers wishes, as a buyer if you're not happy, go else where. No-one is forced to buy a horse, or sell it if they are not happy with the seller, buyer or vet.
		
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What do you mean by 'consistent flexion test'? In what respect should two flexion tests be consistent and why does consistency in this respect matter?

Do you have any evidence for the unreliability claim? Do flexion tests create false negatives or false positives? Do they create the same number of false negatives/positives on different parts of the leg and the same for fore and hind limbs?

Ditto with the damaging claim please.


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## Goldenstar (18 October 2013)

The vet canot do a vetting without flexions what they do inlaid down and they must vet within the guidelines .
Yes I agree if you don't want flexions done you have the right to say that up front before the potential buyer sees the horse but to leave it until after viewing would make you the worse type of time wasting seller.
Not allowing flexions  may be ok is you are selling cheap low end types but if you require insurance for say competition type with a price tag to match and you want insurance you will need that vet certificate .
I require a horse to stay sound through a flexion before I embark on expending a huge amount of money and time and work on it.
As long as you state in your advertisement no flexions allowed I have no issues with it buyers can then make whatever inference they chose from that and save themselves the cost of the phone call.


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## siennamum (18 October 2013)

I had (unfortunately) one of my geldings flexion tested this week and last week, and my mare had a routine flexion last week. She is 20 and I want my vet to know what is normal for her and be able to spot any changes. I specifically asked him to come out & do a workup including flexion tests, he gave me an informed view about whether she has any issues in her hocks.

He has pinpointed via a flexion where we believe my gelding has an issue (fetlock) medicated it and is treating it based on the outcome of his flexion (& other symptoms)

Maybe having a good vet show you what they are achieving with a flexion test will put your mind at rest Palerider.


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## Pale Rider (18 October 2013)

To be honest, it's never been an issue with anyone. My attitude is that people can do what they want with their own horses, but not with mine. That's it.


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## siennamum (18 October 2013)

Presumably they don't often insure? I know you don't always have to have a vets cert, but it would be a handicap if horse is over a certain value.


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## Pale Rider (18 October 2013)

It's pretty wicked to treat a horse poorly if it's cheap and well if it's expensive. Expensive horses get treated pretty poorly by their cost concious owners. In fact worrying about flexion tests is bizarre really when some of the worlds most expensive pampered horses are chronically lame.
If you took the shoes off Totilas he'd be as lame as a cat, If they are lame without shoes they're lame with them, just hide it with shoes.
I'm not impressed by insurance company rules, nor vets and their vettings. I know of many people who wasted money on a vetting and bought a horse that was ill or injured. Vets always say that the horse was ok on the day. Bit of a get out clause, lol.
End of the day flexion tests are inconclusive and risky.


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## Booboos (18 October 2013)

Pale Rider said:



			It's pretty wicked to treat a horse poorly if it's cheap and well if it's expensive. Expensive horses get treated pretty poorly by their cost concious owners. In fact worrying about flexion tests is bizarre really when some of the worlds most expensive pampered horses are chronically lame.
If you took the shoes off Totilas he'd be as lame as a cat, If they are lame without shoes they're lame with them, just hide it with shoes.
I'm not impressed by insurance company rules, nor vets and their vettings. I know of many people who wasted money on a vetting and bought a horse that was ill or injured. Vets always say that the horse was ok on the day. Bit of a get out clause, lol.
End of the day flexion tests are inconclusive and risky.
		
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It would be a far more interesting discussion if you took a bit of time to substantiate your claims rather than merely repeting them.

What evidence leads you to believe that flexion tests are inconclusive and risky?

Cats are lame? I am completely confused!


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## SusieT (18 October 2013)

Curious how you think holding a leg bent will hurt a horse.....No matter how 'tight' the flexion is, it's not possible to overflex a joint and only a horse with an underlying problem will show a bad reaction


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## cptrayes (18 October 2013)

Pale Rider said:



			Finding someone who can do a consistent flexion test would be an achievement. Unreliable at best, potentially damaging at worse. Originally developed as a dope test. Just because someone is buying a horse doesn't give them a right to dictate what tests they want done, against the sellers wishes, as a buyer if you're not happy, go else where. No-one is forced to buy a horse, or sell it if they are not happy with the seller, buyer or vet.
		
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Damaging HOW. PR????

The jumping horse puts immense pressure into its joints on take off and landing. How on earth can a human lame a sound horse horse by flexing when the direction of bend of the leg prevents over flexing the joints being tested.


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## Pale Rider (18 October 2013)

The Ramey Study David Ramey did one a comprehensive studies of flexion tests. He examined 50 horses, or 100 front legs. All horses were judged to be clinically sound on hard ground prior to the test. Both front legs of each horse were flexed twice; once with normal pressure, and once with "extra firmness." The horses were also x-rayed for abnormality in the joints. Findings are below: Of 50 horses, 20 of them, or 40%, showed some positive response (positive=lameness) to the regular flexion. Forty-nine of the 50 horses showed a degree of lameness in response to a "firm" flexion. Thirty-nine of the firmly flexed horses were lame on a scale of 4 out of 5 or greater. Flexion results were compared with each horse's x-rays. Abnormal x-rays didn't correlate with a finding of lameness on flexion. Twenty-four of the 50 horses had radiographic abnormalities, but only eight of these showed any lameness on flexion. Working and older horses were more likely to show a degree of lameness on flexion. (reprisal: Hey dude, ever hear of warming up?)Busschers and van Hoogmoed Studies A study by Busschers of 100 horses sound showed similar findings to Ramey. Their study included both front and hind legs of horses actively working/competing... Like Ramey, they found that the amount of pressure applied and the length of the flexion affected the outcome of the test. Sound horses tended to be slightly positive (showing lameness) in the hind limb. Mares were more likely to show a degree of lameness on flexion than geldings. Repeating a flexion in 10 minute or 30 minute intervals increased the likelihood of a horse showing some lameness on flexion. Repeating a flexion 48 hours later did not increase the likelihood of a positive flexion (flexion showing lameness). The horses were retested in 6-months. On the retest, the number flexions showing a degree of lameness decreased significantly and the horse's range of motion increased significantly. Sixty percent of 100 sound riding horses in this study showed some degree of lameness on flexion.


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## Pale Rider (18 October 2013)

In my non-veterinary opinion the only thing a flexion test tells you is that it may hurt a horse to have a joint forced into an unnatural position. Maybe that means the joint is not in good shape, maybe it doesn't. It tells you diddly squat about the likelihood of future soundness, and next to nothing about soft-tissue problems. On any given day, a horse might or might not flex "positive", depending on whether or not it was just lying down in a funny position, had another horse bang it in the knee, or just because. How does a negative flexion by vet "A" measure up to a positive flexion by vet "B"? Maybe vet "B" is bigger and stronger. Maybe horse "A" is sound and horse "B" isn't. WAY too many confounding variables for me.


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## SusieT (18 October 2013)

So regardless- you think its worthless but what damage do you think it does?


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## cptrayes (18 October 2013)

Pale Rider said:



			The Ramey Study David Ramey did one a comprehensive studies of flexion tests. He examined 50 horses, or 100 front legs. All horses were judged to be clinically sound on hard ground prior to the test. Both front legs of each horse were flexed twice; once with normal pressure, and once with "extra firmness." The horses were also x-rayed for abnormality in the joints. Findings are below: Of 50 horses, 20 of them, or 40%, showed some positive response (positive=lameness) to the regular flexion. Forty-nine of the 50 horses showed a degree of lameness in response to a "firm" flexion. Thirty-nine of the firmly flexed horses were lame on a scale of 4 out of 5 or greater. Flexion results were compared with each horse's x-rays. Abnormal x-rays didn't correlate with a finding of lameness on flexion. Twenty-four of the 50 horses had radiographic abnormalities, but only eight of these showed any lameness on flexion. Working and older horses were more likely to show a degree of lameness on flexion. (reprisal: Hey dude, ever hear of warming up?)Busschers and van Hoogmoed Studies A study by Busschers of 100 horses sound showed similar findings to Ramey. Their study included both front and hind legs of horses actively working/competing... Like Ramey, they found that the amount of pressure applied and the length of the flexion affected the outcome of the test. Sound horses tended to be slightly positive (showing lameness) in the hind limb. Mares were more likely to show a degree of lameness on flexion than geldings. Repeating a flexion in 10 minute or 30 minute intervals increased the likelihood of a horse showing some lameness on flexion. Repeating a flexion 48 hours later did not increase the likelihood of a positive flexion (flexion showing lameness). The horses were retested in 6-months. On the retest, the number flexions showing a degree of lameness decreased significantly and the horse's range of motion increased significantly. Sixty percent of 100 sound riding horses in this study showed some degree of lameness on flexion.
		
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None of this is of any use unless the studies say how many of these horses would have failed a prepurchase vetting. A very high proportion of horses will take some lame steps but that is normal and does not make them vetting failures.

Xrays have never correlated well with lameness, so that's a red herring.

I've sold many horses subject to vet. Only one has ever failed a flexion, and in his case it exposed a shoulder injury which required rest.  None of the others ever developed any lameness issues that I am aware of.  I've also bought two after vetting. One passed flexions and was fine, joint wise. The other failed a front flexion but the vet told me it was just a bruise, so I bought the horse. Six months later it was a navicular write-off. My sound Eventer suddenly started refusing fences. We flexion tested his hocks and exposed early spavins.  

That's a 100% a  record for my personal experience of flexion tests, so I can't agree with your opinion about them.


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## Booboos (19 October 2013)

Pale Rider said:



			The Ramey Study David Ramey did one a comprehensive studies of flexion tests. He examined 50 horses, or 100 front legs. All horses were judged to be clinically sound on hard ground prior to the test. Both front legs of each horse were flexed twice; once with normal pressure, and once with "extra firmness." The horses were also x-rayed for abnormality in the joints. Findings are below: Of 50 horses, 20 of them, or 40%, showed some positive response (positive=lameness) to the regular flexion. Forty-nine of the 50 horses showed a degree of lameness in response to a "firm" flexion. Thirty-nine of the firmly flexed horses were lame on a scale of 4 out of 5 or greater. Flexion results were compared with each horse's x-rays. Abnormal x-rays didn't correlate with a finding of lameness on flexion. Twenty-four of the 50 horses had radiographic abnormalities, but only eight of these showed any lameness on flexion. Working and older horses were more likely to show a degree of lameness on flexion. (reprisal: Hey dude, ever hear of warming up?)Busschers and van Hoogmoed Studies A study by Busschers of 100 horses sound showed similar findings to Ramey. Their study included both front and hind legs of horses actively working/competing... Like Ramey, they found that the amount of pressure applied and the length of the flexion affected the outcome of the test. Sound horses tended to be slightly positive (showing lameness) in the hind limb. Mares were more likely to show a degree of lameness on flexion than geldings. Repeating a flexion in 10 minute or 30 minute intervals increased the likelihood of a horse showing some lameness on flexion. Repeating a flexion 48 hours later did not increase the likelihood of a positive flexion (flexion showing lameness). The horses were retested in 6-months. On the retest, the number flexions showing a degree of lameness decreased significantly and the horse's range of motion increased significantly. Sixty percent of 100 sound riding horses in this study showed some degree of lameness on flexion.
		
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A couple of things:
1. When you copy directly off a website, it is courteous (not to mention avoids plagiarism!) to clearly indicate this (I have no idea who you are, this may well be your website, but since you post anonymously there is no way of knowing this for people who read the thread). The site your info comes from is http://www.behindthebitblog.com/2008/02/flexion-tests-what-do-they-mean.html This is not a published paper, just someone's blog and when doing research it's worth reading studies directly and making one's own mind up.

2. Have you actually read the studies the other guy is quoting? If yes could you please explain to me the relevance of the of the van Hoogmoed et all (2003) to your argument? I have read the study and to the best of my understanding it compares pre-purchase clinical and radiographical evidence with similar post purchase evidence. This study is primarily about the difficulty of detecting navicular and tarsus problems than with the effect of flexion tests.

3. Busschers and van Weeren (2001) has not been cited since it was done which is slightly worrysome don't you think? I can only find one citation in Jonsson et al (2013) and their results are critical and B&vanW.

4. Ramsey (1997) study design is criticised even by those skeptical about the role of flexion tests, e.g. see this very useful summary of cricial literature on flexion tests: Singer E., "Provocative tests for lameness evaluation" http://www.beva.org.uk/_uploads/documents/p93-116-fri-hall-1a.pdf

5. What about contrary evidence (more recent studies at that), like?
Jonsson L, et al, "Prevalence of clinical findings at examinations of young Swedish warmblood riding horsess" Acta Vet Scand. 2013 (55)1:34
Starke S.D., et al, "Proximal hindlimb flexion in the horse: effect on movement symmetry and implications for defining soundness", Equine Veterinary Journal, 44 (6): 657-663

6. And finally the theoretical point at the crux of this: how do we establish cause and effect in this area? How do we design a study that differentiates between horses that were subtly and undetectably lame until the flexion test showed the lameness and horses that were sound but were made lame by the flexion test?


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## cptrayes (19 October 2013)

Thanks for taking the time to do that Booboos, some very useful additional research stuff there.


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## cptrayes (19 October 2013)

Pale Rider said:



			tells you .... next to nothing about soft-tissue problems..
		
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Flexion tests on front feet are actually very effective at revealing damage to the soft tissue injuries inside the foot which used to be diagnosed as navicular disease. I've seen two horses which were completely sound on a straight line almost  fall flat on their faces after flexions.

My horse with the shoulder injury was also a soft tissue problem, and PSD will also flex unsound (possibly not 100% I'm not sure)

A friend of mine had a sound horse fail the vet on one them, which when xrayed had detached a ligament from the bone and would have almost certainly been lamed by arthritis at some point in the future. Without the failed flexions, the xrays would not have been done and she'd have bought herself a heap of trouble.


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## siennamum (19 October 2013)

Pale Rider said:



			It tells you diddly squat about the likelihood of future soundness, and next to nothing about soft-tissue problems. On any given day, a horse might or might not flex "positive", depending on whether or not it was just lying down in a funny position, had another horse bang it in the knee, or just because. How does a negative flexion by vet "A" measure up to a positive flexion by vet "B"? Maybe vet "B" is bigger and stronger. Maybe horse "A" is sound and horse "B" isn't. WAY too many confounding variables for me.
		
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A flexion test can tell a good vet where the issue is likely to be, which is pretty useful IMO.

The same vet doing a flexion test over time on the same horse can spot changes, which is also pretty useful. 

I really think you need to meet a good vet PR.

Neither of the horses I m spending huge amounts of money on (& getting flexion tests on) are worth anything, so your analogy about value vs treatment is meaningless. I don't insure them, though I will insure my only valuable horse (and he will have numerous flexion tests in his life)


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## Pale Rider (19 October 2013)

Ok booboo, I'd have thought the cut and paste job was obvious, even to a one eye'd donkey, but there you go.

So you tell me how you differentiate between lameness before a flexion test or caused by a flexion test.

I know people who claim otherwise sound horses were lamed by the test.

Until this is resolved why would anyone risk this. It's alright for potential purchasers to cause a sound horse to be lamed, they just walk away.


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## Goldenstar (19 October 2013)

Pale Rider said:



			Ok booboo, I'd have thought the cut and paste job was obvious, even to a one eye'd donkey, but there you go.

So you tell me how you differentiate between lameness before a flexion test or caused by a flexion 
I know people who claim otherwise sound horses were lamed by the test.

Until this is resolved why would anyone risk this. It's alright for potential purchasers to cause a sound horse to be lamed, they just walk away.
		
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I would say you know people with lame horses who did not realise they where lame until a flexion test was done.
There is no risk and people allow it to be done because no horse can be vetted without it being done .


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## Booboos (19 October 2013)

Pale Rider said:



			Ok booboo, I'd have thought the cut and paste job was obvious, even to a one eye'd donkey, but there you go.

So you tell me how you differentiate between lameness before a flexion test or caused by a flexion test.

I know people who claim otherwise sound horses were lamed by the test.

Until this is resolved why would anyone risk this. It's alright for potential purchasers to cause a sound horse to be lamed, they just walk away.
		
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That's the most bizarre excuse for plagiarism I have ever heard in my life, and I have sat on endless academic plagiarism committees! If you cut and paste someone else's words, just reference them. Easier than relying on one eyed donkeys (what happened to the lame cat by the way?).

Well that was my point. There is an even more significant point that related to the subjectivity of seeing a lameness. One of the studies I referrenced above mentions a 75% agreement amongst the vets watching the videos on whether the horses were indeed lame or not...which leaves a 25% disagreement!

Given how difficult it is for professionals to see lameness and how difficult it is to establish cause and effect in this area, anecdotal evidence about our respective acquaintances is fairly useless. I also know people who claim that their horses were cured by homeopathy or the animal communicator but it still doesn't make it so. 

That is not the only risk...you also have the risk that flexion tests actually work in bringing out a lameness and by not doing one you are buying a horse that only appears lame. Seeing as the evidence for your risk is very, very limited I know which risk I take. I take it as a buyer you buy without flexion tests?


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## cptrayes (19 October 2013)

Goldenstar said:



			I would say you know people with lame horses who did not realise they where lame until a flexion test was done.
		
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I agree. 

PR, can you point me to one substantiated case where a flexion test permanently or even medium term lamed a sound horse?


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## Pale Rider (19 October 2013)

Well booboo, you sitting on an academic committee doesn't suprise me in the least. Lol.

Looks like I'll continue to be against flexion tests. I expect someone will come up with some  research for not doing them in the future. They nearly always do.


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## MagicMelon (19 October 2013)

I dont really see why the owner would refuse the flexion test unless the horse has clearly failed it before and she knows that it will again.  I dont like flexion tests as I have had a horse a few years ago fail a pre-sale flexion test even though I got my own vet out 2 hours after who passed him... that lost me a sale but then he sold to the next person and has never been lame, so I dont agree with them either.  But I wouldnt stop someone having one on one of my horses if they wanted it, I'd just hope that IF the horse failed then as long as it was only a very low degree then it wouldn't put them off because they should be taken with a pinch of salt!  

OP, be careful - you took her out on the road, that's fine BUT remember the owner was leading her so this does NOT mean the horse is good on her own / in traffic etc.  Most horses behave pretty well when led but take them off the lead and it may be a very different story so make sure if you want to hack this horse that you do hack it out properly (and not on a lead).  The fact the horse has no shoes on makes no difference, it shouldn't be lame without.  With regard to the x-rays, I personally would never fork out for x-rays on request of a buyer either, its really up to you to make yourself happy as it is buyer beware.  Its not really up to her to prove the horse is sound Im afraid.  If there's ANY doubt then simply walk away!  But then again, as someone who is trying to rehome one of my horses as a gentle hack due to his lameness (which I make very clear to people) - even if the horse was slightly lame, it may be absolutely fine for years hacking.  It really depends what the issue is though of course, if there is one.  Too many people who are actually just gentle hackers only seem to demand 100% sound horses when there are loads of not 100% sound horses (but not in pain ones, like mine) that could do the job perfectly well!


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## Booboos (19 October 2013)

Pale Rider said:



			Well booboo, you sitting on an academic committee doesn't suprise me in the least. Lol.

Looks like I'll continue to be against flexion tests. I expect someone will come up with some  research for not doing them in the future. They nearly always do.
		
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I am an academic philosopher, I post openly, this is me: http://homepages.nildram.co.uk/~pocket/
The page is a bit out of date I need to get it sorted but my profiles on academia.edu and philpapers.org give access to my work.


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## cptrayes (19 October 2013)

cptrayes said:



			I agree. 

PR, can you point me to one substantiated case where a flexion test permanently or even medium term lamed a sound horse?
		
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No, I didn't think you could.


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## amage (19 October 2013)

PR just out of interest when you buy a horse do you tell them not to bother flexing it at the vetting??


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## Pale Rider (20 October 2013)

Well, this business of being anti flexion tests started for me about 20 yrs ago. I had a nice stallion at stud. A number of people brought mares, now brood mares because they reckoned that flexion tests lamed these mares. Different vets involved all round the country. These were expensive mares and totaled three in number over a couple of yrs. These horses were sound and working until they were being sold and vetted. In the blink of an eye, lame and devalued. Obviously folk bred from them because the lines were good. Now, I can't prove any of this, but you hear the same tale a few times and you'd be daft to let the same thing happen to you.

I've bought a lot of horses over the years and never had any vetted. I trust my own judgment, never had cause to regret it.


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## SusieT (20 October 2013)

oh excellent, so you encouraged the breeding of sub standard specimens.


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## cptrayes (20 October 2013)

SusieT said:



			oh excellent, so you encouraged the breeding of sub standard specimens.
		
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Yup, fantastic, let's breed from mares that are so fragile that a flexion test that the vast majority of horses would have no problem with permanently lamed them.

Triffic idea!


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## Pale Rider (20 October 2013)

Well, you prove a flexion test didn't lame them and I'll agree, but of course you can't.


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## cptrayes (20 October 2013)

Pale Rider said:



			Well, you prove a flexion test didn't lame them and I'll agree, but of course you can't.
		
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It did lame them.

The question is why they were so frail that a test which the vast majority of horses pass with no issues, otherwise they would not be used for diagnosis and vettings,  lamed them permanently.


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## Magnetic Sparrow (20 October 2013)

I've read this thread with interest, thanks for something worthwhile to read on a day when the weather is too nasty to do much with my horse.

Question: If an owner is unwilling to allow you to do a flexion test, would it be possible to ask them to make available the horse's veterinary records instead? That would at least show whether the horse had known issues.


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## hnmisty (20 October 2013)

Magnetic Sparrow said:



			Question: If an owner is unwilling to allow you to do a flexion test, would it be possible to ask them to make available the horse's veterinary records instead? That would at least show whether the horse had known issues.
		
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My dad is a vet, so when I was looking at Barry the lady selling him said I could get my dad to phone up the practice he was registered with to check his record. I thought either there was nothing on it, or it was a good double bluff.

His passport had no record of him being given bute (he wasn't signed out of the food chain) but I have since found out from the actual owner that he had been given bute before. They obviously had their own supply they didn't need a vet for. So the vets would have said they'd only had to visit him for routine things...but that clearly wouldn't have meant all too much.

The vet now thinks he has arthritis... Had him 5* vetted in April when he was 8.


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## Booboos (20 October 2013)

Pale Rider said:



			Well, this business of being anti flexion tests started for me about 20 yrs ago. I had a nice stallion at stud. A number of people brought mares, now brood mares because they reckoned that flexion tests lamed these mares. Different vets involved all round the country. These were expensive mares and totaled three in number over a couple of yrs. These horses were sound and working until they were being sold and vetted. In the blink of an eye, lame and devalued. Obviously folk bred from them because the lines were good. Now, I can't prove any of this, but you hear the same tale a few times and you'd be daft to let the same thing happen to you.
		
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There is a reasoning test called Occam's razor which says that faced with a number of competing explanations, the one with the fewest assumptions is more likely to be correct. So here we have two competing explanations:

either vets are in a global conspiracy to turn horses they vet lame and hide this fact thus gaining...ermmmh not too sure what they have to gain here, perhaps we should ask the anti-vaccination crowd?

or owners work horses that have subtle problems that do not become detectable until the horses are put under the strain of vetting, e.g. trotting on concrete on small circles, flexion tests, etc.

Pick your choice.

By the way when you have had owners with horses found to have heart problems at the vetting did you conclude that vets somehow give horses cardiac disease as part of the vetting or did you think that this was a pre-existing and undetected  by the owner condition?


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## SusieT (20 October 2013)

booboos I'm afraid your cardiac case made me burst out laughing as it is exactly the same thing and I bet the vet is somehow to blame for the horse having a heart problem. The light shone in the opthamology exam probably also causes cataracts...


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## Pale Rider (20 October 2013)

Thanks for that Booboo, I'll go with Chatton. 

Its fairly common for procedures, often in common usage in medicine, animal or human, to fall out of favour as knowledge increases. Time will tell. 
Lobotomies make the top of the list for being one of the most barbaric techniques ever used in medicine, very popular with the medics at the time though.


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## cptrayes (20 October 2013)

Pale Rider said:



			Thanks for that Booboo, I'll go with Chatton. 

Its fairly common for procedures, often in common usage in medicine, animal or human, to fall out of favour as knowledge increases. Time will tell. 
Lobotomies make the top of the list for being one of the most barbaric techniques ever used in medicine, very popular with the medics at the time though.
		
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Best laugh of the thread PR, comparing flexion tests with lobotomies.  Both very successful techniques, of course, one just rather unethical in most circumstances.


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## Pale Rider (20 October 2013)

Glad you've had a laugh CP, I'll maintain my stolid position, but time to move on for me, lol.


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## Booboos (20 October 2013)

Pale Rider said:



			Thanks for that Booboo, I'll go with Chatton. 

Its fairly common for procedures, often in common usage in medicine, animal or human, to fall out of favour as knowledge increases. Time will tell. 
Lobotomies make the top of the list for being one of the most barbaric techniques ever used in medicine, very popular with the medics at the time though.
		
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Under that logic you should reject all medical and veterinary techniques.

Just because some medical/veterinary knowledge comes to be proven to be wrong through evidence, it does not mean that we come to doubt all medical/veterinary knowledge, especially with no evidence to the contrary.

Our knowledge and understanding of physics also changes but I wouldn't suggest you jump off a really tall building in the hopes that someone will prove gravity to be wrong in the future.


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## Pale Rider (20 October 2013)

I think you're getting carried away with these theories Booboo, they are only theories you know. Lol.


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## Booboos (21 October 2013)

Pale Rider said:



			I think you're getting carried away with these theories Booboo, they are only theories you know. Lol.
		
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I'm getting carried away? In what way exactly? I am merely following your argument, and reason has its own force. You are prepared to reject a common veterinary technique. At first you said it was because studies had shown it was both unreliable and harmful to the horse, then you changed that to claim that while nothing had been proven you had anecdotal evidence to that effect, then you changed that again to claim that you were certain that evidence would come up against flexion tests in the future. Under this logic anything is suspect as anything may be proven in the future to be wrong, where and how would you ever draw a line by your own reasoning?

Lol?


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